# Hamburger Mattenfilter for a low tech setup



## sewingalot

I've been studying this recently method of filtration recently and him-hawing between this idea and a sump for a new tank I am setting up. After much thought, I'm about 85% convinced I'm trying this out. So for those that want to follow along, feel free. This is a thread to show the progress of my building it, to share my experiences both short term and long term. However, please know that this may be like my canopy and take years to complete of I may abandon the idea completely, so feel free to just look at the links or move on shaking your head at my slowness. :tongue:

Also, please don't turn this into another debate thread on the HMF. There are plenty out there already, and I am even giving you links to the pros and cons. If you feel the need to argue this method of filtration, I suggest starting your very own thread or else I will abandon this documentation entirely as I have no desire to have yet another thread loose it's original purpose in order to feed egos (again, there are enough threads to do that). 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DItfIGJL-Uc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ColI4FOSFHY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-lTCMdxQeA
http://www.deters-ing.de/Berechnungen/Berechnungen.htm#Mattengroesse
http://www.shrimpnow.com/content.php/265-Hamburger-Matten-Filter-(HMF)
http://aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?79104-Hamburger-Mattenfilter-HMF
http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/
http://www.crustaforum.com/board/showthread.php?202-Hamburg-Mat-Filter-(HMF)
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...wet-thumb-forum-new-filtration-concept-3.html

Does anyone currently have a HMF setup in his/her own tank? If so, please share pictures if you have any! I'm looking for inspiration. :icon_smil

Step one: Finding poret filter #30. 
Step two: More research for example, do I want to use an air driven pump or the aquaclear filter #20 already on hand?
Step three: To cover or not to cover? That is the question (i.e. Moss or clado?)
Step five: Actually start working on step one.

Edit: A new awesome link provided by Bahugo: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/3677-My-racks-and-shrimps


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## wkndracer

Good morning :smile:
similar?
http://www.angelsplus.com/FiltersCustom.htm


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## sewingalot

You rock, Mike! Perfect. Now do you know where to find stacks of $20? :hihi:


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## wkndracer

OK I'm a doofus! what's a stack?


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## driftwoodhunter

This is interesting - something new to learn about! I've never heard of it before, and from the links it looks like it's not restricted to shrimp tanks only - one tank user had discus (with other filtration, if I remeber correctly). So, is this going to be for a shrimp tank for you, or are you using this on a planted community tank?
I'm suscribed - I don't care how many years it takes! lol

Just watched the AngelPlus vids, they were very clear and to-the-point. He mentioned that you could put additional media between the foam filter and the tank glass if you want - media of your choice including gravel, bio balls, etc. I would think that could include filter floss? I recently removed my Tetra carbon/floss filter bags in my Whisper HOB and replaced them with filter floss, and I'm pleased with the results. Now that I see how little surface area my puny clumps of floss have, in comparison to the large sponge suface (I know the plants help too) I'm thinking I will take a good hard look at this system! 
~ Cin ~


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## fresh.salty

wkndracer said:


> OK I'm a doofus! what's a stack?


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## plantbrain

If you use a sump, then these are part of the filter anyway:thumbsup:
They are easier to clean and take up less space in the tank that way. 

I just use big blocks O foam, 4" or so and snug fit them to the sump after the wet/dry tower. All my tanks have them.

There is little doubt they work well. Ugly in the tank, but I've seen some nice solutions to that.
Sumps stink for shrimp since they get in there and into the overflows.


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## sewingalot

For those interested in why not to do this this fitration, Hoppy graciously started a thread on the pros and cons of the filter. In fact, I encourage you to go there and decided for yourself and even join in on the conversation.  http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/145106-hamburger-matten-filter-why-not.html 

Driftwoodhunter, this is going to be fore a shrimp and small fish tank, specifically a 33 gallon long. I toyed between a sump, a canister, a powerhead, a basic sponge filter and other ideas on filtration (even - gasp - undergravel filtration). Seeing my shrimp always on the prefilters and basic sponge filters is what lead me to finding the HMF. This has been around for many decades, longer than my life and is still used today, many purposes being breeding.

I was in between using a sump with a mattenfilter installed there or directly in the tank. After much thought, I am going the traditional route. This was picked for purely the reason that I'll find it pleasing watching shrimp play on the wall. As many already know, shrimp and fish love picking on the goodies growing on sponges. When I took my sponge out to rinse them every few months, I had to practically pull the boogers off them. They bred more frequently in this tank, didn't have to worry about the filter sucking up babies and was the lowest maintained tank I owned. I could focus on the tank's inhabitants. 

For me, algae will be expected to grow on this fitration, specifically Cladophora. 
However, out of all the algae out there, this is the most pleasing to me and generally is found in pristine water conditions.:









One could run and hide at this point, but even just this sponge is a haven for all kinds of goodies. All throughout the day and night, if the shrimp aren't fed an outside foodsource, they are on this sponge picking away. Babies flock to it. From this image, I imagined a wall of spongecake and the search led me to the old HMF.


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## Hoppy

Will this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 work to hold the ends of the sponge at the glass? It is the closest I could find to what I saw in some of the linked threads.


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## OverStocked

Hoppy said:


> Will this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 work to hold the ends of the sponge at the glass? It is the closest I could find to what I saw in some of the linked threads.


Bigger "lips" work better, but you might be able to make that work. I ran several of them as just partitioned ends to the 10g tanks, and something liek that would prob work fine. If you run it in an "corner" configuration it should work fine. I don't remember where I found my track at.


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## Bahugo

Hoppy said:


> Will this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 work to hold the ends of the sponge at the glass? It is the closest I could find to what I saw in some of the linked threads.


You can use plexiglass, cut a thin strip from top to bottom of where the sponge would go and just silicon the plexiglass to make a stop and it will stay in place. The one journal that is linked from shrimp now he just silicones a L angle if I am not mistaken.


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## wkndracer

fresh.salty said:


>


yup! 110% doofus

thinking of something tank related and bam! right between the eyes


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## sewingalot

Haha, Mike. Yeah stack of bills, ala Moolah. This will take me months just to gather all the materials. :hihi: I'm taking time off soon to make some crafts for some cash hopefully to fund this project and my stand that needs to happen first. 



Hoppy said:


> Will this http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 work to hold the ends of the sponge at the glass? It is the closest I could find to what I saw in some of the linked threads.


So funny, I just saw those this evening as we were out and wondering the same thing. My only thought was whether or not it would stay in place. I saw they had grey ones, too. I think I need to buy some foam and take it with me.

I like this idea of Rich's link with plexiglass.


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## wkndracer

I like Steve's method of over cutting and simply wedging the foam panel into the tank.
Ordering one, maybe two panels this weekend so I can fuge in the center of my new sump.


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## Bahugo

You could probably get away with using those plastic corner things they sell at wallpaper stores that protect the corners from getting torn/scuffed up. I would imagine they are cheap. 

Wkndracer http://www.foamandupholstery.com/out_door_foam.htm that's another place to buy foam, scroll down to regicall Foam. I don't know how thick you are looking for though.


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## Jim Miller

Bingo! I knew I had seen some plastic L somewhere! Nice!

Thanks

Jim


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## Hoppy

http://www.kofflersales.com/product.asp?cid=56&pid=74 is the corner guards. I used to get them at hardware stores, but I can't remember seeing them there for several years. They might be the cheapest easy to do way to hold a corner filter.


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## Bahugo

Hoppy said:


> http://www.kofflersales.com/product.asp?cid=56&pid=74 is the corner guards. I used to get them at hardware stores, but I can't remember seeing them there for several years. They might be the cheapest easy to do way to hold a corner filter.


Yup! That's what I meant. I'm pretty sure I've still seen them around in hardware stores around here, haven't really looked for them though.


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## sewingalot

Why does a piece of foam cost so much $$$?? So I am going by this calculation of the famous Olaf and the size mat I need for the power-head I currently own is quite pricey. Time to double check my math as this doesn't sound right. 

Haven't yet decided on just doing a vertical wall of foam or the semi circle mount. The wall seems less intrusive to me. For a tank 48" long and approximately 12" deep and 12" high, the vertical mount seems less obtrusive.


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## HX67

sewingalot said:


> Does anyone currently have a HMF setup in his/her own tank? If so, please share pictures if you have any! I'm looking for inspiration.


Hi.
I have three HMF:s in my tanks.
One is a standard "end of a tank foamed"-version, one is in a sump.

One is in a 250 gal brackish tank, been working for four years I think. The foam is 1 x 0,5 meters, on the back of the tank:









Pump is a Koralia 4, rigged onto a chamber in the corner:

















I also made a fake rock background with a lot of holes, slots and gaps to hide the foam:









Koralia is a powerful pump and even though it takes part of it's flow through the grille left in front of the chamber, it probably takes more water through the foam than is necessary/ideal.

But it's been working fine for four years. I have taken the foam out for a wash twice so far.


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## sewingalot

:drool:

Thank you for sharing that, HX67!!! You just showed everyone that the ugliness factor is null and void with your *gorgeous *setup. I can only dream that my tank will look 1/10th that nice. Much needed inspiration and you have shown me that I am going to take my time setting this up as nicely as possible. If this takes me 5 years, so be it. I'm going to try my best to come up with something as nice as that!

Found a good local (well a few hours) source for the foam at an affordable price! 
http://www.swisstropicals.com/


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## driftwoodhunter

I am madly in love with your 3D background...that is by far the most realistic DYI one I've seen, and I've been researching them heavily!
Am I correct in understanding that the 3D background has been placed in front of the foam, and the cutouts are there to permit the water flow?
I love it. 
Have I mentioned I love it? lol
~ Cin ~


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## Hoppy

Reading through the Q&As about the foam it looks like another alternative would be an "L" shaped piece, extending from the bottom to the top, in a corner, an inch or two from the back glass. You can glue pieces of the foam together with aquarium silicone so making the "L" shaped piece would be easy. That lets you use 1/2 of the back for the filter very easily, or 2/3 of the end, and moss, etc. could hide the whole thing.


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## Wasserpest

Did this 5 years ago...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/23611-wasserpests-modified-mattenfilter.html


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## HX67

sewingalot said:


> Thank you for sharing that, HX67!


Thank you. My pleasure. 
Good luck with your project.



driftwoodhunter said:


> Am I correct in understanding that the 3D background has been placed in front of the foam, and the cutouts are there to permit the water flow?
> ~ Cin ~


Yes, you are correct.
Fish also like to go behind the background for a rest and shelter.
Thanks.


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## sewingalot

That's a great idea, Hoppy. I see what you are saying, that sounds like a definite possibility. 

Wasserpest - T! Thanks for the link. I was just looking at this just moments ago and came over here to see you linked it. I like the simplicity of the design and see that you used a speaker packaging? 

Thanks, HX67! I hope to make you pleased of my attempts of copying some of your ideas. 

I called around and there is a heating and air place that can order 30 PPI polyurethane foam that is 1" thick. I was wondering, could I buy two of these and 'sew' them snugly together with mono filament to make a 2" depth? Because if so, I can can get what I need for under $8. That would make things so much easier.


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## demonr6

Silly question but would adding something like a moss wall as an exterior buffer help/hinder what you are trying to accomplish. Reason being a nice, filled in moss wall would certainly be more eye appealing than just plain foam for those concerned with the ugly factor plus I think the moss wall would act as another method of filtering as well?


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## Jim Miller

From my limited experience java moss would cling to this like white on rice.

jim


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## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> I called around and there is a heating and air place that can order 30 PPI polyurethane foam that is 1" thick. I was wondering, could I buy two of these and 'sew' them snugly together with mono filament to make a 2" depth? Because if so, I can can get what I need for under $8. That would make things so much easier.


Any time you use something made for a different use in an aquarium you take some risks. If that foam was made for filtering air, for example, it could have a chemical treatment to kill molds, which would be very harmful in the water. If it was made for cushioning fragile items when packaging things, it could have other ingredients that might be harmful in the water, and it might have a limited life in water. Also consider the structural strength of the foam - air filters, packaging materials, etc. need very little structural strength compared to what a HMF needs. It might work fine, but if it doesn't it would be a big mess to clean up.


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## nonconductive

My friends in the local club who are breeding wizards swear by this kind of filter. I'm pretty sure Indyplanted uses both air and powerheads.


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## jdm68

So here is a good place that has tons of different size, thickness, and pore choice Poret sponge filters available.
http://www.swisstropicals.com/Poret Filter Foam Pricelist.html
I haven't been able to find many other places that sell Poret brand, which is apparently really great, as it is designed for aquariums and sure to withstand the environment. Hope it helps somebody. I'll be buying from them when I set up a HMF in a 10g after I move.


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## wkndracer

*10/9/11*

Power head driven Matten 10g fry tank




























I'll really be looking at the flow once the free swimming starts.
This will be great for LFABN but not sure on my angels as powered currently.
It is an O2 factory though.


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## sewingalot

Mike, I am so jealous. Thanks to the vet and car bills, my project is on hold for at least the rest of the year. Don't even have a stand for the tank built yet. I do have dirt, turface, light bulb, reflector and powerhead. So it's a work in SLOW progress.

Thank you for the build pictures. This will help a great deal. Will you update it in a few months with the progress?


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## Hoppy

Has anyone else tried this lately? If so, what is the verdict?


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## TheWoo

A guy I know in Germany (top corydoras breeder) uses nothing but matten filters. 

This is a good but long read on how they work. http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/

I have contacted a local manufacturer of polyurethane foam but he isn't sure about a copper additive they usually use.

Looking forward to reading your decision.


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## wkndracer

I purchased my foam from Angels Plus so no concerns on the material and the sump and fry tank both are working well


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## somewhatshocked

Can't tell you how excited I was to visit the forum today after spending a couple weeks researching this type of filter. 

Looks like this is a super-efficient way to filter tanks for us shrimp nerds. 

Set one up in a new 20L a couple weeks ago and so far I have no complaints. Way more efficient than running 3-4 separate sponge filters and less obtrusive. 

Can't wait to see how sewingalot's project turns out.


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## aquatic serenity

Is the main benefit of this type of filter denitrification?
If so - I am achieving lower nitrates using a scintered glass product called SIPORAX....I employ it in a slow flow canister filter with good results...
When I had reef tanks in the early 80's I would use 4" thick foam blocks placed strategically in a low flow area of the sump to lower nitrates...so I am convinced this method will work for that purpose.


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## sewingalot

The main reason for the filter is biological fitration, aquatic serenity. This filter has been known to produce nitrates often times, and in planted tanks, this will be a bonus. There are a few words about denitrifation and this filter here: http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/

Update on my status: 
I got the foam from darkestsky more than a few weeks back. But now I am selling the 33 for financial reasons, so this will be going in a 15 gallon long. This is a little more tricky as the foam will take up more ratio, but I still plan to go through with it to try it out. The benefits are still very impressive to me. I have a powerhead already and also the tubing to hook it up. Here is what is currently stopping me: I am wanting to build a removable container to hold the foam in place. I gave this a lot of thought and I decided silicone would be a bad choice in case this doesn't work out well for me. I have some spare acrylic hanging around, but the dremel is MIA. Once we locate it, the build will commense and I'll update with pictures and progress. But hey, I am ahead of my 3 year schedule already.


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## Hoppy

Watching the progress of a Sewingalot DIY project can be as exciting as watching Crypt Parva make a carpet.:icon_smil It ends up being well worth watching, but never sets the pulse racing.

I'm in limbo with my planted tank hobby now, with my tanks all torn down, all but one sold or given away, and waiting to get the place ready to sell for a move to an apartment. When I get resettled I plan to set up my 65 gallon tank as a non-CO2 tank, with a mattenfilter as the only filtration. I want something entirely in the tank - no hoses. 

Watching my wife and I make a housing change is like watching molasses flow in sub-zero climates.


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## KH2PO4

plantbrain said:


> If you use a sump, then these are part of the filter anyway:thumbsup:
> They are easier to clean and take up less space in the tank that way.
> 
> I just use big blocks O foam, 4" or so and snug fit them to the sump after the wet/dry tower. All my tanks have them.


Tom, but yours doesn't look fit into the MattenFilter main concept which is 
very slow flow through the foam, to give the water long contact time with bacteria.
That's why they use large cross sectional area material ("large but thin", as the 
thickness beyond a few cm serves no significant function).

From http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/


> I think it should be quite clear from the article: two or more smaller filtermats in a row don't work. It's in the article and in the FAQ again. Don't do it, I agree with Olaf here. You do the maths and you will see. The amount of filtration needed is related to your tank size, but should be around two tanks per hour. A bit less or more isn't going to kill anything. So the amount of water that goes through your setup is a fixed number. Most of the required bacteria can be found in the first half inch of the mat. Anything after that is basically thickness for the sake of stability. So the same amount of water has to travel through a much smaller frontal surface, resulting in a higher speed. Too high, in fact. The whole point was to reduce flow rate! It's not going to work. By stacking smaller bits of foam behind each other, you are reinventing the cannister filter, horizontally.


While it apparently works for you, but it's just not MattenFilter.


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## jccaclimber

When I set up my 55 I just stuck it to the end of the tank and gave up the last 2-3 inches of the tank. With the same piece in a 75 I set it up as a corner filter. I set mine up with aluminum angle, although I would use 2x or 4x thick glass if I were to do it again.

I've since planted mine with xmas moss and java fern.
Foam from http://swisstropicals.com/. If you look at his fish room, all of the tanks are low tech with HMF filters in the back, or towers of the same foam.


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## longbeach

I've been running an HMF filter in my 55 for 5 years now. Great filter, so far the only maintenance has been to occasionally syphon off the filter.

I use a piece of Poret Foam that runs across the tank full width. 

It shortens the tank by 5 inches. The filter is a piece 12 X 19 Poret X 2 inches thick with a small sump pump in the water.

One side of course faces the main tank and the other is water space that is pumped out back to the tank. I do use a homemade sprinkler to diffuse the flow a bit.

I want to covert it now to a shrimp tank, then the syphoning cleaning may have to stop. I can visualize that foam as beening a major shrimp feeding station, and hangout for the babies.

I did this as a test experiment and if you don't mind losing a few inches off the tanks length, it is a super very low maintenance filter.


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## Hoppy

jccaclimber said:


> When I set up my 55 I just stuck it to the end of the tank and gave up the last 2-3 inches of the tank. With the same piece in a 75 I set it up as a corner filter. I set mine up with aluminum angle, although I would use 2x or 4x thick glass if I were to do it again.


Do you mean you would use strips of glass siliconed to the tank walls to hold it in place? Are your aluminum pieces siliconed in place?


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## jccaclimber

The aluminum angle is siliconed to the walls in my tank. The foam stays in place on its own. As it turns out, placing plastic mesh between the foam and aluminum also makes putting a moss wall over it very easy. The aluminum however is a bit unsightly. There are a couple ways I could fix this.
1) I could attach some plastic mesh to cover it and grow it out.
2) I could use just the angle on the back, put a plate of glass on that, and wedge the foam in between (I'll make a picture).
3) Like the above photo or option 2, but without the aluminum angle. This would require gluing the new pane to the bottom for extra support (a good idea with option 2 as well). Placing a small plate near the top (planar with the bottom of the tank, orthogonal to the new pane and back wall) would support the top.

Edit: schematic of Option 2 attached. Gray is aluminum, light blue is glass, darker blue is foam.


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## sewingalot

KH2PO4, you might want to check out Hoppy's link I provided for more HMF debating. It's really a great thread he started for anyone wanting to discuss the pros/cons and general debate. For what it's worth, you are completely right with your thinking from the months of research I've done on the filter.

Longbeach, thanks for the information! That is the kind of posting that makes me excited to get to work. 



Hoppy said:


> Watching the progress of a Sewingalot DIY project can be as exciting as watching Crypt Parva make a carpet.:icon_smil It ends up being well worth watching, but never sets the pulse racing.
> 
> I'm in limbo with my planted tank hobby now, with my tanks all torn down, all but one sold or given away, and waiting to get the place ready to sell for a move to an apartment. When I get resettled I plan to set up my 65 gallon tank as a non-CO2 tank, with a mattenfilter as the only filtration. I want something entirely in the tank - no hoses.
> 
> Watching my wife and I make a housing change is like watching molasses flow in sub-zero climates.


Haha, Hoppy! All should know from my 18 month old canopy build that has wobbly cuts and light shining through that this will be a long, painful progress. :wink:

All of your tanks are now down? I didn't realize you finally got that for. The move is getting closer, now isn't it? Are you going to show experiments with PAR on your tank? Let me know when that molasses of yours gets from point A to point B. LOL

That is also what I wanted for the 33 was no hoses, no potential water leaks from plumbing. The main reason was because it is going in a room with fabric and water leaks would be a very bad thing. Plus it's one of the only two carpeted rooms in the entire house which becomes a bigger mess. Since the 15 is going in the same area, I'm setting up the HMF as planned, just on a smaller scale. I did some bending, and it looks like it won't be too obtrusive. I will be treating the wall as a part of the decoration, so I am not too concerned. After I ship off the last planned shipment of shrimp tomorrow, I'll temporarily rehome the rest of my yellows to the 55 in order to tear down the tank for the filter build. I am projecting maybe the end of this year for that phase. :hihi:




jccaclimber said:


> I set mine up with aluminum angle


Snipping everything else, did you have any issues with the aluminum in the tank and does your tank have shrimp? I am looking online, but not finding much on the use of aluminum in tanks and it's effects on shrimp.


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## KH2PO4

Sorry about that, I just sensed it 5 minutes after clicking.

I've been using one for nearly 6 months now. I follow original design (full width of the tank).
It works very well. Really no maintenance required, consumes really low energy.
I'm not sure but it seems to be really able to break down waste. The mulm is very fine 
dust sitting at the bottom behind the mat which you can siphon out easily if you care.

The foam I use is not Poret. It is for Koi pond and it's cheaper. Don't know what PPI it is 
but about the same as Eheim's coarse blue pad.


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## jccaclimber

jccaclimber; said:


> Snipping everything else, did you have any issues with the aluminum in the tank and does your tank have shrimp? I am looking online, but not finding much on the use of aluminum in tanks and it's effects on shrimp.


I do not have shrimp, but my snails (2 types of ramshorn and 1 type of pond) have no issues. If anyone wants to send me shrimp to try it out I'll be glad to.


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## sewingalot

KH2PO4 said:


> Sorry about that, I just sensed it 5 minutes after clicking.
> 
> I've been using one for nearly 6 months now. I follow original design (full width of the tank).
> It works very well. Really no maintenance required, consumes really low energy.
> I'm not sure but it seems to be really able to break down waste. The mulm is very fine
> dust sitting at the bottom behind the mat which you can siphon out easily if you care.
> 
> The foam I use is not Poret. It is for Koi pond and it's cheaper. Don't know what PPI it is
> but about the same as Eheim's coarse blue pad.


No need for apologies.  I figured you may really enjoy reading Hoppy's thread on the subject as it seems to always have a controversy surrounding it despite the enormous positive reviews over 30 or more years. Only a few tend to argue it's lack of usefullness often because they are the type that like to debate everything. 

Do you have any pictures of this setup? Sounds great! And what fauna do you have in this tank? Thanks for the description on the silt, as it is often overlooked and isn't really shown where I've looked.

Nice that you chose the whole width of the tank. Any links to the foam you used? Also, do you hide your heater and other equipment behind the wall? 



jccaclimber said:


> I do not have shrimp, but my snails (2 types of ramshorn and 1 type of pond) have no issues. If anyone wants to send me shrimp to try it out I'll be glad to.


Since the snails are working out, seems like the shrimp would be okay as well. I like the look of the aluminum, could be a way to do a modern twist to landscaping. If you wanted some mutts, I could send you shrimp.


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## jccaclimber

^Sent you a PM with shrimp questions. I'll try to get a photo of what the aluminum now looks like in the next day or two.


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## reybie

Could this setup be considered a mattenfilter? I was debating about removing the sponge filters and using a pump to move water from left to right with a hose above the sponges (water flows back through the sponges), then I figured I will have to worry about keeping the pump prefilter clean and can be prone to clogging if I forget to maintain it.



IMG_20111129_064152.jpg by reybie, on Flickr​


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## Hoppy

That is just tank dividers, not filters, as far as I can see. Using a pump to move water from one end to the other would be a semi-mattenfilter.


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## jccaclimber

Terminology aside, that will filter if you get flow through it via a pump or lift tube/jetlifter with a bend. I'm not sure what type of foam you're using, but based on the volume you have there I suspect you could filter the entire system with just that.


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## sewingalot

*Math: The fun stuff!*

Thanks for answering reybie's question, you too. I really would agree with just using an air pump as well. JC, answering your pms.

-----------------------------------
Update, moving along on calculations:
So with the help of Kara and the link: http://www.deters-ing.de/Berechnungen/Berechnungen.htm#Mattengroesse I am getting the following needed for the size foam and the gph of the filter. (Listing the parts I used, they are in German, but I am thinking that math is universal, so I am doing a little guess work.)

_Unter Vorgabe von gewünschter Strömungsgeschwindigkeit, Beckengröße und Umwälzung pro Stunde lässt sich die erforderliche Mattefläche bestimmen. Die Gleichung ergibt sich zu: 
erf. A = Inhalt * n * 1000 / (V * 60) . 
In der Realität wird sich die Geschwindigkeit aber um ein vielfaches höher einstellen, insbesondere bei eingefahrenen Matten. Dieses ist in der Querschnittseinengungen aus dem Mattenmaterial selbst und der Verschlammung begründet. In der Praxis macht das nichts aus. Mit den bekannten 5 bis 10 cm pro Minute liegt man sehr gut, Abweichungen davon müssen nicht zwangsläufig zu Problemen führen und hochgenaues Einstellen der Strömugnsgeischwindkeit bringt auch nichts. Damit macht man sich eher lächerlich! _

In other words:

Gallons x 3.78 liters x 2 x 1000/(7.5x60) = cm2 needed of foam
(56.7 x 2 x 1000) / (7.5 x 60) = 252 cm2 

I convert this into square inches for my brain not to hurt too much.

for those that don't want to look up the calculations: 1 inch = 0.393700787 centimeters

252 x .0393700787 = 99.21259324 sq in needed

And now, my tank is 12” tall, so: 
99.21259325/12 = 8.26 is the width needed, which is a little larger than 8 ¼”

To make it easier, rounding up to 8.5 x 12 will give me 102 square inches which should be fine. The question will be if the pump will fit in this area give the bend of the filter and the 2” thickness. 


Now for the pump size needed. 

_Erforderliche Pumpengröße
Entscheidend für die Fördermenge der Pumpe ist Frage, wie oft der Beckeninhalt pro Stunde durch die Matte soll. Für gewöhnlich setzt man 2x an. Bei stark besetzten Becken kann das zuwenig sein, in stark bepflanzten Aquarien gehts auch mit viel weniger. Zu beachten ist, das eine Erhöhung der Pumpenleistung nur dann Sinn macht, wenn die Strömungsgeschwindigkeit in der Matte nicht die z.Zt. anerkannte Obergrenze von 10 cm/Minute überschreitet. Dieses sollte man also mit der zugehörigen Berechnung (sh. oben) immer kontrollieren. 

Volumen (ltr)	n	=	Q (ltr)_

Take the volume of the tank x the minimum turnover desired, in this case 2 is often recommended. This is an easy calculation when you eliminate the liters:
15 x 2 = 30 gph needed.

The powerhead I have is an aquaclear 20. It is rated for a maximum flow of 127 gph. But it has a flow adjustment. Upon calling the company, at full blockage (turned down to the slowest flow) it is 1/3 approximate of the max gph.

127 x 1/3 = 42.3 gph

Long story short, I am covered on foam and powerhead. Now to decide how I want to attach it to the tank.


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## jccaclimber

It seems odd to me that they are working in surface area rather than volume of foam. Is there an assumed thickness of 2-3 inches somewhere? Also, wouldn't pore size control the total surface area of the filter?


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## sewingalot

They may very well be. My German is limited to about a dozen words and they are like "the."  So I am thinking they may be assuming 2" but I could be completely wrong on that. I do know that the examples I found online with other sized tanks coincide with my calculations, so I'm pretty confident it'll work.


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## Hoppy

Here is the forumla in English (from one of the links in your first post) http://www.janrigter.nl/mattenfilter/

And, one square inch equals 6.45 square cm.


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## sewingalot

So totally didn't think about square inches in that one. Nice catch, Hoppy. I did see that one calculation provided by janriter but decided to go by the german site just to be difficult. Actually my thinking was it may be more accurate since it did calculations for you as well, but it doesn't help with human errors. :biggrin: I'll go back and use those calcuations you linked and see if they match or contradict each other. Will report back in a day or so as I am a little lazy as we know when it comes to DIY. Even math.


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## somewhatshocked

Basically, I can't wait to see what kind of fancy algae sewingalot grows on her Mattenfilter.

This is going to be awesome.


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## longbeach

The ONLY flaw I have found with my system, is that on the bottom, I should have attached a wall or "I" beam device, to hold back the substrate should I ever need to remove the foam. 

Oh well, the way it has been working I see no need to do that. I'll try to send a picture but am ashamed to show my neglected tank on this forum!!... but of couse you all have inspired me to start some changes and artful setups.


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## Razorworm

i'm going with HMF's in the first six tanks in my fish room build. After following this thread and doing additional research, I feel it is the way to go. The guy at Swiss Tropicals has been really helpful and if anyone is interested in doing a fish room, check his out...IT IS SICK! I will also silicone in a "wall" to retain substrate, as long beach mentioned. Thank's sewingalot for all of your efforts!


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## jccaclimber

^A sheet of glass placed vertically (held in with silicone at the edges) also works, and looks nicer than a wall of silicone.


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## sewingalot

somewhatshocked said:


> Basically, I can't wait to see what kind of fancy algae sewingalot grows on her Mattenfilter.
> 
> This is going to be awesome.


Priceless. You get an A for that post. 



longbeach said:


> The ONLY flaw I have found with my system, is that on the bottom, I should have attached a wall or "I" beam device, to hold back the substrate should I ever need to remove the foam.
> 
> Oh well, the way it has been working I see no need to do that. I'll try to send a picture but am ashamed to show my neglected tank on this forum!!... but of couse you all have inspired me to start some changes and artful setups.


Thanks for the tip on the "I" beam. I'll keep that in mind as a necessity as I'll really have this tenacity to mess things up. 

Come on, longbeach: Show me the pictures! I grew dead java moss for two months before I realized it wasn't living, so it can be as bad as that. If you go and look at my journal, you'll see the lots of bad parts, ugly dying plants and screw ups along the way. 

This was my 10 gallon at the beginning of the year:









and here it is now:









Now, the second isn't fantastic and it's not going to win any contests, but in comparison to the earlier picture, it looks like a palace. So I encourage you to always post your progress for better or worse. You'll be that more proud of your accomplishments when you look back. We all have setbacks as hobbyists as most of us aren't doing this for a living and have unlimited amounts of time and money to throw into the tank. 

Regardless, I am glad you are inspired to try new things! Worst case scenario, it doesn't work out and you start all over. :biggrin: 



Razorworm said:


> i'm going with HMF's in the first six tanks in my fish room build. After following this thread and doing additional research, I feel it is the way to go. The guy at Swiss Tropicals has been really helpful and if anyone is interested in doing a fish room, check his out...IT IS SICK! I will also silicone in a "wall" to retain substrate, as long beach mentioned. Thank's sewingalot for all of your efforts!


That is a nice fishroom. Only, I am not impressed with that ugly foam orange. What were these manufacturers thinking? LOL.



jccaclimber said:


> ^A sheet of glass placed vertically (held in with silicone at the edges) also works, and looks nicer than a wall of silicone.


Hmmm.....glass does sound promising. I am posting a technical difficulties post in a few moments I had this morning. Feel free to look it over and tell me if I am completely wrong in my calculations or plain mad. :icon_wink


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## sewingalot

After reading my calculations again and reworking them, Hoppy is correct, my square centimeters to square inches calculation is an error. It should have been 39.06 square inches, not 99. I should have multiplied by 0.155 and not .0393700787 Per the link Hoppy suggested, I went through the steps, cursed, banged my head on the desk, erased, penciled and cursed some more. Here is what I wrote down about my experience: 

“With filtration, there is a direct relationship between velocity of water flow and pump capacity per hour. When sizing a pump and/or a filter mat, the pump is defined first. Twice the capacity per hour is typically used.” 

Simple enough:
15 gallons * 2 = 30 gph. 

Now it is time to calculate liters per hour needed. I know that 3.78 equals one US gallon.
3.78 *15 * 2 = 113.4 lph
(I could have simply calculated 30 x 3.78) These figures match yesterday’s, I’m on a role!

Once the pump capacity is known, time to find a velocity for the filter. To do this, I followed the calculations down the page. Number one: find the flow rate. Hmm…I apparently need to know the surface of the mat to calculate this. Huh? This doesn’t make sense. This has to be is out of place, right? Using what I know from both this site and the German one, a flow rate between 5 – 10 cm/minute is commonly the acceptable output for the flow rate. Previously, I used 7.5 as the flow rate on the German site which is the midway point of the two figures. So, I can use the first formula to find the surface of the filter mat. If you read past the problems to the end of the section, this is finally pointed out to you. Thanks for the heads up here. Back to the problem, I know all the variables but the size mat needed, so:

Flow rate in the filter is calculated as 

7.5 = ((liters per hour/60 minutes) x 1000) / A[cm2]
7.5 = ((113.4/60)*1000) / A[cm2]
7.5 = (1.89*1000)/ A[cm2]
7.5/1 = 1890/ A[cm2]
A[cm2]= 1890/7.5
A[cm2] = 252 

So far, both of these calculations match the German site! To side step a moment, I want to find the square inches on the filter mat, since I previously miscalculated. I am doing this to verify I am on the same wave length this time.

Cm2 to In2 formula is cm2 x 0.155
252 x .155 = 39.06 
Once again, with the error corrected, this figure matches the German site. 

So I need 12” tall, and if I take 39.06/12 = 3.255 inches is all that is needed for the width. That would be a small filter mat!

Anyway, to get back to the calculations:

The next formula on the list is the required pump capacity needed. Once again, they are assuming you know the surface area already even though they told you to wait on this information. Since we found it in the previous calculation using basic algebra, we’ll plug that in place.


113.4 = (60 * 252 * 7.5)/1000
113.4 = 113.4

Basically, this makes the formula true. So far, I am wondering what the point of the calculations not being in order. They aren’t very coherent, either. You can find out the Q[ltr/h] right off the bat from reading the previous section, and because they don’t tell you the velocity, you have to guess a bit based on reading ahead to the last paragraph of the Calculations section or know this previously. Now I remember why I didn’t use this site as my original choice and decided to try and read the German site by looking at the mathematics and basic words that were familiar to me. I felt like I was playing a cryptoquip. However, upon verifying calculations, I don’t think I did so badly in my guestimate translating. If I had actually attempted the calculations on this particular site first, I’d given up on HMF long ago. 

So moving on to the third calculation listed:

The dwell time is then calculated by dividing the thickness of the mat by the throughput:

Since the lovely key provided neglects to say what either T or d stands for, I am doing a little more guessing here. Following basic mathematics, I want to find out T [Min], so I am going to assume that “d” is the thickness in centimeters of the mat. 

This particular piece of foam is 2” thick. 
2 inches x 2.54 inches in one centimeter = 5.08 centimeters

T [Min] = 5.08 [cm] / 7.5
T [Min] = 0.6773333333333333

But what is the point of this calculation? The author doesn’t explain this whatsoever. Seems like a waste of time, but I am sure it has a purpose. Notice how you are supposed to know the velocity, which up to this point, still hasn’t really been explained how to calculate without knowing the surface area of the mat filter.

Moving onto the last calculation:
The required surface for the filter is a result of:

This formula enables you to calculate the size of the required mat with a given filter capacity and a desired flow rate.

Okay, so this is really getting absurd! The calculation to find the surface area of the filter is at the end of the calculations, but they expect you to know this for the first two formulas listed.

But for totality, I did the formula as best I could muddle through. However, right away, there was some confusion. The letter “n” is listed under the Calculations section as “the number of tanks filtered per hour.” Once again, this information is a little confusing as you have to read the second to last paragraph of the section to find the rest of the explanation: “Tanks per hour: 1-2 times the content of the aquarium should go through the filter. This value has proven to be a desirable one. When the flow goes below 1 tank per hour in an aerobic filter, a rise in ammonium is possible because bacterial reduction of waste is no longer 100%.” If one isn’t careful, they could believe n is equal to 2 based on ““With filtration, there is a direct relationship between velocity of water flow and pump capacity per hour. When sizing a pump and/or a filter mat, the pump is defined first. Twice the capacity per hour is typically used.” So you really have to read ahead and guess a lot to even maintain some sort of sense to it all.

A[cm2] = (n*Q[ltr/h]*1000) / (V[cm/Min] * 60)
A[cm2] = (1* 113.4 * 1000) / (7.5 * 60)
A[cm2] = (113,400) / 450
A[cm2] = 252

So where does this end up getting me? Pretty much back to where I started. The dwell time was never explained, and makes you want to punch something. The flow rate is never really explained. You are supposed to be shown how to calculate the flow rate first, but you can’t do this without knowing the surface area. But you can’t find the surface area without knowing the value of “V”.

For those following along, this is how I figured it out the first time around (let’s pretend I didn’t have an error previously) following the German site:

1. Define the variables: 
N = 2. This is the turnover of the filter in one hour. From reading on the site, the desirable number is often 2 times.
V = 7.5* Now there is a formula for this on the site, but the German writer helps us out and states a flow rate between 5 to 10 cm is ideal. I used the midway point of 7.5 to make it easy. You can do the calculations, and with my particular filter, I got a minimum of 4.9603174603174605 and a maximum of 9.986772486772485. Half of that was 7.473544973544973. That is pretty close! The formula is on the German site under “Pumpenleistung bei vorgegebener Mattengröße.” But to save headaches, it’s much easier to use 7.5 as it doesn’t really seem to matter on the size of the filter as it almost always calculates at 5 and 10 or very close as in my case (rounding up, it’s 5 and 10.)
Q = the size of your tank in liters. For example: If your tank is 10 gallons, that is 37.80 liters (10 x 3.78 liters in one gallon)


2. Calculate the actual size of the mat needed in square centimeters by using the following formula remembering q is the size of your tank in liters, n is 2 and v is 7.5:
Q * n * 1000 / (V * 60) 

3.	Calculate the required pump size in liters per hour
Q * n

You can do the calculations in reverse if you like, doesn’t really matter. If needed, you can then convert to inches and US gallons to find the proper filter and foam size. This is the most basic way to look at the formulas. If you want to have a curved wall, there is a formula on the German site for that as well as a bunch of other neat calculators. 

All these calculations pretty much confirmed that the German site is easier to follow along, and I just found out recently I could have used google translator to help. Even though the translation isn’t perfect, it’s pretty easy to fill in the blanks (Wish I had known about the translator days ago.)

So for my 15 gallon, I am getting that I need 

252 cm2 or 39.06007812 in2 for the mat and the pump needs to be 113.4 lph or 30 gph.

In other words, this last link was a big headache, made no sense to me and the German site is much more user friendly as it has the calculators all ready for you. Only I am one of those silly people that enjoyed doing this by hand. Not bad that I made except the one little calculation error in the beginning. The real question is, does this mean I am going to have the baby 12 x 3 ¼ inch wall? Of course not, I’m using as much as the foam as I need to. The real question is why did I waste all that time calculating something I plan to ignore anyway? Mainly to understand it and also to confirm the power head I want to use is large enough not to create an ammonia producing factory.

Wasn’t that fun?


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## Razorworm

jccaclimber said:


> ^A sheet of glass placed vertically (held in with silicone at the edges) also works, and looks nicer than a wall of silicone.


Hahaha, I meant that I would silicone in a 3" tall ( apps height of the substrate ) by the width of the tank piece of glass. Did you really think I meant a wall of silicone...omg funny:icon_mrgr


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## Razorworm

Ok, I just read Sewingalot's last and now my head hurts


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## Hoppy

I did the calculation from a different perspective. I don't want to get a second mortgage in order to buy the foam, so I started with the assumption I would buy a 19.5" x 13" piece of foam. My 65 gallon tank is 22.5 inches high on the inside, so I need a piece of foam about 22.5 inches by "X" that can be made from that piece of foam. I made a sketch to work this out: 










If it isn't obvious, I would cut a 3" wide strip off the 13" width of the piece, cut a 10" long piece of that and glue it on the end of the now 10 inch wide piece of foam, giving me a 22.5 x 10 inch piece of foam. Cut a 2 inch strip off the side of that and glue it to make a "L" shaped foam piece.

This would make a "L" shaped filter for the back corner, like:










That has 225 square inches of surface or 1450 square cm. So the flowrate for the powerhead should be: 60 x A x V/1000, or 60x1450x15/1000, because 15 cm/minute is given as about the max velocity it will work with. That gives a flow rate of 1305 liters per hour. Multiply by .264 to convert that to gallons per hour, or 345 GPH. That is the biggest powerhead I could use. The smallest would be about 1/3 of that or 115 GPH. I have a couple of powerheads that will work for that.


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## jccaclimber

Razorworm said:


> Hahaha, I meant that I would silicone in a 3" tall ( apps height of the substrate ) by the width of the tank piece of glass. Did you really think I meant a wall of silicone...omg funny:icon_mrgr


It didn't make sense, but I've learned never to assume anything, particularly over the internet.


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## jccaclimber

Hoppy said:


> I did the calculation from a different perspective.


In case it helps, I'm using that size foam (30ppi I think) with no problems in my 75. Also, both hot glue and silicone work on this stuff.


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## Hoppy

jccaclimber said:


> In case it helps, I'm using that size foam (30ppi I think) with no problems in my 75. Also, both hot glue and silicone work on this stuff.


I would use silicone because of the risk of melting the foam with the hot glue, and the much slower setting of the silicone, giving me time to shift the pieces a bit if needed. It is the cutting that I'm a bit worried about. I have problems cutting upholstery foam accurately. Do you saw it like a piece of wood, or slice it like cheese?


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## jccaclimber

A non serrated kitchen knife works great. Cut without compressing the foam much and your cuts will come out straight. Closer to slicing cheese.

Edit: I recently did this with a knife that wasn't as dull as a bowling ball. Cutting this stuff with a kitchen knife that is remotely sharp is more like cutting butter with a warm knife than cutting cheese. Just remember that you're sliding, not just pushing.


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## Hoppy

Unfortunately, I cut bread much better than I slice cheese.:icon_mrgr But, at least now I know the basic technique.


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## jccaclimber

If you slide the knife it will cut very easily. You shouldn't need to compress the foam to do so. By cheese, I meant a slicing action, not effort level. The effort is closer to bread, or soft butter. Just remember to slide, not push.


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## sewingalot

Razorworm, I am glad you were just in much misery as I was.  

Sure, Hoppy take the easy way out of the fun calculations. :hihi: Actually, that's pretty sweet and much easier. Glad jccaclimber answered the question on how to cut the foam. I was planning on using a jigsaw. Instead of glue, have you thought of sewing the pieces together with monofilament?


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## longbeach

Poret Foam cuts very easily. I had the same resvations about it when I ordered. As stated above use a good serated knife and sort of saw it, all will be well.... it is way more rigid than upolstery foam.
I made mine a wee bit larger than the actual demensions so it would fit tight (by pressure). It ended up bowing a bit but looks fine.


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## jccaclimber

I actually advise using a NON serrated knife.


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## deeda

I decided to use Mattenfilters with Poret foam a couple years ago when I acquired six identical 30G tanks that were 24"L x 18"W x 15 3/4"H. They are perfect sizes for my Tanganyika shelldwellers.

I wanted to use the Poret in the rear corner of each tank and after looking for info on the Internet, I ended up viewing the same sites that you linked to in your first few posts.

If you have the time, you could also silicone narrow glass strips in the tank to hold the corner style Mattenfilter like I did.










View from front of tank with Poret foam in place










View from top of tank 










View from top of tank with heater and DIY PVC uplift tube installed










Filter in operation










I did end up using some short lengths of acrylic about 1" high to insert along the bottom between the Poret and the glass holding strips to prevent my sand substrate from contacting the Poret. 

I'll have to try and get some pics of the tanks setup now. I have found the Najas grass grows extremely well on the Poret surface and as long as it doesn't get too thick, it doesn't interfere with the filter operation at all.


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## jccaclimber

^Excellent photos. That's what I was trying to describe above. I would glue the glass to the bottom of the tank as well (notching a corner to clear the tank seam), and add a plate at the top. However, it looks like it's working pretty well for you. How firm are the two vertical plates?


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## demonr6

sewingalot said:


> After reading my calculations again and reworking them..
> 
> /INSERT HUGE HEADACHE
> 
> Wasn’t that fun?


No, actually that made me ill trying to sort it all out. I had to ask my wife to bring me Dramamine and a beer. You would have been better off posting in Craigslist for someone who undersrtands German to come translate for you and figure it all out you know. Would have been less of a headache. Now back to my beer.


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## demonr6

deeda said:


> If you have the time, you could also silicone narrow glass strips in the tank to hold the corner style Mattenfilter like I did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too much work with glass.. now this though....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> small bead of silicone along the edge and voila. You can go to the evil blue hardware store or the bloodsucking leeches that work at the orange hardware store..


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## jccaclimber

Glass is actually pretty easy, especially if you have the shop cut it for you. Probably only $5 in glass, possibly less, plus a tube of silicone. From the universal angle corner guards I've seen in the past, they are pretty flimsy and rely on being attached to both walls on a corner to hold their shape. I suspect they would just flatten out instead of holding the foam in.
As an unexpected upside, yesterday I noticed that my christmas moss is attaching to the aluminum.


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## Hoppy

deeda said:


> I decided to use Mattenfilters with Poret foam a couple years ago when I acquired six identical 30G tanks that were 24"L x 18"W x 15 3/4"H. They are perfect sizes for my Tanganyika shelldwellers.
> 
> I wanted to use the Poret in the rear corner of each tank and after looking for info on the Internet, I ended up viewing the same sites that you linked to in your first few posts.
> 
> If you have the time, you could also silicone narrow glass strips in the tank to hold the corner style Mattenfilter like I did.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from front of tank with Poret foam in place
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from top of tank
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View from top of tank with heater and DIY PVC uplift tube installed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Filter in operation
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did end up using some short lengths of acrylic about 1" high to insert along the bottom between the Poret and the glass holding strips to prevent my sand substrate from contacting the Poret.
> 
> I'll have to try and get some pics of the tanks setup now. I have found the Najas grass grows extremely well on the Poret surface and as long as it doesn't get too thick, it doesn't interfere with the filter operation at all.


That looks very good, and I like it better than my "L" shaped one for several reasons, including more space behind it, easier to retain in place, easier to make, and I think it will look better. It takes the same amount of foam as my "L" shape does, too. I just changed my plan!



sewingalot said:


> Sure, Hoppy take the easy way out of the fun calculations. :hihi: Actually, that's pretty sweet and much easier. Glad jccaclimber answered the question on how to cut the foam. I was planning on using a jigsaw. Instead of glue, have you thought of sewing the pieces together with monofilament?


I hate trying to sew something, especially with monofilament! Silicone surely must be easier.


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## driftwoodhunter

Ok, let me ask the stupid question. Other than the foam's surface area, and the ability to hide the heater, how is this different than using a sponge filter on a powerhead? Is it similar?
I ask because this interests me, and I am trying a sponge filter on a powerhead now in a 29g tank (vs. the Tetra Whisper hob filters I've always used before) I find I really, really like the silence of the powerhead/sponge combo, plus there are no unsightly filter units looming over the tank. I see these as benefits of the Mattenfilter too.
I hope to be setting up two 55s this winter and I'm considering the Mattenfilter as a corner unit. Btw, sewingalot's post not only gave me a headache, my eyes started to cross. Math is my downfall - when the time comes I may need help in deciding what gph powerheads to get!
lol


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## somewhatshocked

sewingalot said:


> Priceless. You get an A for that post.


Haha! I'm for real not kidding, though. I can't wait.

I saw a glorious mass of thick algae at a local fish shop last week and thought of your posts. Am going back next week in hopes to snapping a photograph. Had to have been at least a square foot.

This thread is super-interesting because I want to try this out myself. Mixing all the math in just made my nerd parts kick into high gear and I'm all over it/excited.


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## Razorworm

driftwoodhunter said:


> Ok, let me ask the stupid question. Other than the foam's surface area, and the ability to hide the heater, how is this different than using a sponge filter on a powerhead? Is it similar?
> I ask because this interests me, and I am trying a sponge filter on a powerhead now in a 29g tank (vs. the Tetra Whisper hob filters I've always used before) I find I really, really like the silence of the powerhead/sponge combo, plus there are no unsightly filter units looming over the tank. I see these as benefits of the Mattenfilter too.
> I hope to be setting up two 55s this winter and I'm considering the Mattenfilter as a corner unit. Btw, sewingalot's post not only gave me a headache, my eyes started to cross. Math is my downfall - when the time comes I may need help in deciding what gph powerheads to get!
> lol


It's the same. You noted the advantages. It also looks cleaner.


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## Hoppy

Razorworm said:


> It's the same. You noted the advantages. It also looks cleaner.


It is slightly different: A MattenFilter is supposed to be designed so the water velocity through the foam falls within limits that are optimum for bacteria growth - not too fast and not too slow.

I bit the bullet and ordered my Poret foam a few minutes ago. Even though I can't set up my tank for a few months I can make the filter at my leisure. I always enjoy trying new ideas (new to me) like this.


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## jccaclimber

driftwoodhunter said:


> Ok, let me ask the stupid question. Other than the foam's surface area, and the ability to hide the heater, how is this different than using a sponge filter on a powerhead? Is it similar?
> I ask because this interests me, and I am trying a sponge filter on a powerhead now in a 29g tank (vs. the Tetra Whisper hob filters I've always used before) I find I really, really like the silence of the powerhead/sponge combo, plus there are no unsightly filter units looming over the tank. I see these as benefits of the Mattenfilter too.
> I hope to be setting up two 55s this winter and I'm considering the Mattenfilter as a corner unit. Btw, sewingalot's post not only gave me a headache, my eyes started to cross. Math is my downfall - when the time comes I may need help in deciding what gph powerheads to get!
> lol


The surface area is fairly important. It's big enough that even if local sections clog, there is always another path. As a result, maintenance is nil. The rigidity also keeps it from collapsing on its self (which decreases cross sectional area and makes the clog worse).
For those not interested in doing the math, get a chunk of foam the size of the small end of your tank, and a pump that moves 1.5-3 tanks per hour. Hob filters operate at a higher water velocity than is prescribed here. While perhaps not ideal, they do work. For those using a reactor, heater, thermometer, etc. You can hide all of them behind it.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thank you! I'm very interested in trying this...


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## somewhatshocked

driftwoodhunter: I think you and sewingalot should get together and craft some sort of hybrid rig. Her, with her Mattenfilter. You, with your fancy rock wall carving skills. Think of the things you could create!

You're both making me want to try this quite badly.


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## driftwoodhunter

lol - I think she & I live close enough to get together, too! 
thanks for the compliment!!
I've been thinking about "rock" walls hiding the heater/etc. with large removable foam filters built in... ; )


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## deeda

jccaclimber said:


> ^Excellent photos. That's what I was trying to describe above. I would glue the glass to the bottom of the tank as well (notching a corner to clear the tank seam), and add a plate at the top. However, it looks like it's working pretty well for you. How firm are the two vertical plates?


Thank you, pics always explain better than words, at least for DIY projects.

The two vertical holders are solid, no movement whatsoever. I had my local glass company cut them for me. They are 1"W x 14"L x 1/4" thick with polished edges so they aren't sharp. They also cost me $4.50 per tank so a bit more expensive then I anticipated.

The problem with adding a glass plate at the bottom is that it doesn't conform to the radius of the foam curve and is really only necessary when using fine grain sand as it gets 'sucked' into the foam.

Adding a plate to the top runs into the same problem as well as interfere with the placement of the air lift piping.


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## deeda

For those considering using this style filter, there is no need to add the foam supports brackets unless you are using the corner style version or some similar configuration.

It is usually installed completely across the width of the tank (end of tank) and the heater, air lift, powerhead or other equipment is located behind the foam. The Poret is usually cut a bit (1/2") wider than the inside width of the tank and is held in place solely by friction.


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## jccaclimber

deeda said:


> Thank you, pics always explain better than words, at least for DIY projects.
> 
> The two vertical holders are solid, no movement whatsoever. I had my local glass company cut them for me. They are 1"W x 14"L x 1/4" thick with polished edges so they aren't sharp. They also cost me $4.50 per tank so a bit more expensive then I anticipated.
> 
> The problem with adding a glass plate at the bottom is that it doesn't conform to the radius of the foam curve and is really only necessary when using fine grain sand as it gets 'sucked' into the foam.
> 
> Adding a plate to the top runs into the same problem as well as interfere with the placement of the air lift piping.


I don't think we're talking about the same thing. The red circles in the attached pictures outline the extra plates and edges I was trying to refer to. If yours works however, it seems they might not be needed.
My filter is set up like yours, and I do have sand in the bottom of mine. I've considered thermoforming a sheet of acrylic to put down there, but since I never remove my filter it hasn't been an issue getting sand in it yet.


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## deeda

I don't think there is really a need for the extra top plates, especially if you are only using them to make the vertical braces more rigid. 

I did not make my vertical braces the entire height of the tank. They are 14" long and the tank is 15-1/2" high from tank bottom to under rim.


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## jccaclimber

Looks like there won't be any foam cutting. For future reference of others, there is a picture at the bottom of this link showing how to cut this foam. I'm not going to hotlink the image, but it's a large kitchen knife and a strait edge.
http://www.swisstropicals.com/Poret Filter Foam.html


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## sewingalot

Well you guys have motivated me enough to actually work on this now. It's great to see the thread is moving along without me being present. I am going to start tearing down the tank tomorrow. Since it has been severly neglected for months and I haven't maintained it except for breif periods, I plan to bleach the tank and scrub it down to start fresh. I still haven't decided on how to install it. The corner may be my chosen method just for aesthetics, and space saving. I may post up some options to see what you all think.


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## jccaclimber

I haven't personally seen it done, but I suspect a straight triangle in a corner would work as well, assuming you don't need to hide anything larger than a heater behind it.


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## sewingalot

I am using the Hagen AC 20 powerhead and a small tetra filter plus the co2 line. So I need a little space, mostly for the powerhead filter.


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## jccaclimber

You're putting a HOB behind an HMF filter?


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## sewingalot

Ha, that does sound like a HOB the way I worded it. I'm using this:
http://www.marinedepot.com/Aqua_Cle...arium_Powerheads-Hagen-HG10585-FIPHAD-vi.html

It's around 2 - 3" square.


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## Hoppy

I'm going to use one of these http://www.boyu.us/eng/wavemaker.htm which is an older model I was using as a powerhead, with a magnetic mount. It barely will fit, but it does fit. I found that a 1 1/2 inch black plastic sink drain extension pipe makes a nice fit with the outlet, so I can have a hard outlet through the foam. This should be fun!


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## jccaclimber

When putting things through this foam, I don't advise removing a chunk, just cut a slit or an x, no bigger than needed, and shove the pipe through. In my experience it seals its self back around the obstruction within a day or two.


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## cableguy69846

OK. Sara, you made my head hurt with this thread. *ouch* But you have given me a ton to think about for my shrimp tank. I hate the filter in it, but I have to use an intank filter as the shelf it is on will not allow for a HOB. I think I am going to go with this one. I will be following along with you as well, to see what you come up with. Thanks for all the info everyone. I am sure I will be back with questions.:thumbsup:


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## Hoppy

I just got my Poret foam today, and a question immediately occurred to me: is there any reason why we need the foam to extend below the substrate level? That part seems to be just wasted, unless we want to suck in water from under the substrate, and I don't. So, wouldn't it be a good idea to use a bottom on the Mattenfilter, made of 2 inch thick impervious material of some kind? Just what that material would be I don't know yet, but I would silicone the bottom of the Poret foam to that material - Granite, for example.

This is only of interest because I would rather have all of the foam acting as a filter, since I just barely have enough, and this would make it easier to make, for my case.


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## jccaclimber

No reason to have it under the substrate other than keeping the substrate in place. Generally it comes pre-cut to the height of the tank, so there's no real benefit to removing the foam on the bottom. I don't know your stocking loads, but I suspect you won't need those couple inches on the bottom all that badly.


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## Hoppy

I need the couple of inches on the bottom so the piece of foam reaches to the top. The tank is about 22 inches high, and the foam is 19 1/2 inches long. I think I have figured out how to do it with acrylic plastic. Sketch to follow.


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## Daximus

Really cool thread! I've never heard of such a thing, but I love the idea! It's like a self contained sump...sort of, lol.

The only downfall as others have stated seems to be hiding it.  That rock wall in the beginning of the thread was really great looking. Another thing I think would be fun to try is getting some plastic mesh and growing a moss wall on it. Then you could bend it or place it to sit right in front of your foam. I think that would look great. 

I might have to try this on my 30! Thanks everyone!


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## Hoppy

I can make this easily with scrap acrylic, sit it on the bottom in the corner, and sit the foam on top. It should keep the substrate out of the inside and prop up the foam too. I would need to heat and bend a strip of acrylic but the curve wouldn't have to be very accurate. The weight of the substrate on the outer part of the flat plate at the bottom should keep it in place.


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## Hoppy

Here is the "stool" for my Mattenfilter to sit on. This lets me use a 13" x 19.5" standard piece of Poret foam, and still have it reach the top of my 24 inch high tank. This raises it about 3.75 inches, and it will be hidden under the substrate. It is made from one small pane of polycarbonate window "glass" from Home Depot.

Now, I have a few months to wait, before I get moved to an apartment and can set this tank up.


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## sewingalot

Glad to see some other members learning from the thread. Always glad to see new people learning!

Nice setup, Hoppy! What did you use to glue the pieces together and how do you cut them? You've given me an idea on what to do setup wise for mine now. I finally finished draining the tank, but that's as far as I've gotten. :hihi:


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## jccaclimber

Looks like silicone or something. I've had good luck with Weld-On numbers 3 and 4 for acrylic. The silicone I've used eventually has peeled off of the acrylic I've used it on in a tank, but only in applications that bear some sort of load. This should be pretty stationary, and not really holding much back.


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## deeda

Thanks for posting the pic, Hoppy!! I was trying to picture how you were planning on 'raising' the Poret off the bottom of the tank. I think that will work great.


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## Hoppy

I used acrylic cement, medium viscosity. With a cold garage, and a tube of cement that is almost a year old, it comes out of the tube with enough viscosity to not run too badly. Polycarbonate is an acrylic plastic, so it works well with it. And, the "stool" doesn't hold water or have much stress on it, so it doesn't take much to hold it together. Silicone doesn't adhere to acrylic at all well.

Last night I started thinking about using rare earth magnets to hold the foam in place. It takes 4 or 8 magnets to do it, so the cost starts getting higher than I want. I know it would work well, but I'm pretty sure I will follow this method: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/l...attenfilter-low-tech-setup-6.html#post1616585 Of course a tube of aquarium sealant isn't exactly free either, so the magnet idea may look more attractive when I price everything out.


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## jccaclimber

For the bottom if you just shove it against it you may well be fine. For rare earth magnets, are there any downsides to the neodymium in the tank in case you crack the nickel shell? I'd guess no, but I don't know either.


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## Hoppy

jccaclimber said:


> For the bottom if you just shove it against it you may well be fine. For rare earth magnets, are there any downsides to the neodymium in the tank in case you crack the nickel shell? I'd guess no, but I don't know either.


I have used those magnets before. They do slowly corrode, releasing a tiny bit of red iron oxide. But, I now have some Performix "Rerack" coating, which puts a white rubber coating on the magnets. I tried it for a few months, and no corrosion, but how it will hold up over a few years I don't know. I suspect I could also coat it with the acrylic cement to act as a water proof coating. Or, possibly encase it with a very thin acrylic shell over the ends. The coated magnets Hydrophyte uses for his magnet supported riparium planters seem to work long term just fine.


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## jccaclimber

For those curious about the aluminum and shrimp, I now have some yellow shrimp in the tank. CO2 with a yellow drop checker, EI ferts, tons of light, and aluminum. Shrimp are living in a breeder net to keep them safe from the angels, but they do have plants to keep them company. So far one has molted, and a couple are berried. No indication so far that the aluminum is an issue. I do do 50% weekly water changes though, so there shouldn't be a ton of long term buildup.


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## sewingalot

Excellent. How long have they shrimp been in there now? I finally got my tank drained and the old turface out and will be buying the track this weekend hopefully. Glad to see they are still alive, too!


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## jccaclimber

sewingalot said:


> Excellent. How long have they shrimp been in there now? I finally got my tank drained and the old turface out and will be buying the track this weekend hopefully. Glad to see they are still alive, too!


I started bombing them in on 12/6, finished on 12/7 or 12/8. I lost one larger one in the high tech tank some time the night of 12/10. I suspect this has something to do with the water change I did on 12/10. This could be due to me moving the breeder net containing them from the tank to a bucket during the water change. It could also be due to me not turning off my CO2 for a little while after the water change like I usually do. All the shrimp in the low tech tank (now at the same temp) are doing well. I've had molts in both, and have berried shrimp in both, so hopefully they will multiply and prosper.


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## sewingalot

That is great news overall. The older ones tend not to do as well with stresses like co2 and temperature changes. May have been too much at once. I hope they do quite well for you! The yellows are my favorite shrimp for sure. Do you remember what part of the store you got the track from? I was thinking window and doors or roofing?


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## jccaclimber

Mine is 1 inch aluminum angle. It was near the sheet metal and metal rods. As a warning about angle vs glass, you will see aluminum corrosion between the aluminum and glass eventually. It doesn't hurt anything, but it is there.


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## sewingalot

Thanks for the heads up on the corrosion. I'll probably just go to the home stores and wander the isles. I have a feeling I'll end up buying the cheapest thing in the end as I tend to do. I wonder if you coated the aluminum with expoxy or something if the corrosion would still occur?


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## jccaclimber

A thin coating of silicone might work, but you wouldn't be able to miss any spots, my christmas moss is starting to secure to the bare aluminum the way it does to driftwood, so it really won't be an issue soon. It eventually stops making white clumps of aluminum oxide and just settles to a nice gray color. Probably would have done so much faster if I hadn't picked at it. Also, you *might* be able to get away with 3/4 inch angle, but honestly it looks a lot smaller in the tank than it does in your hand.
Using glass will completely prevent this issue.
Outside (Larger copy):

Inside (Larger copy)(Don't mind the mess of plants on the right, they're growing there for transfer to another tank):


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## sewingalot

Nice, you can't even see there is a filter on the second picture! I love it. The corrosion doesn't look bad at all, that part of the tank will be against the wall so it should be a non-issue for me then. By the way, thanks for doing the experiment with the shrimp for me. It's nice to know they don't seem to be effected in the slightest. roud:


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## Baadboy11

Hey just saw this awesome idea when checking google!



















I gotta order some foam.....:icon_neut


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## Hoppy

That is interesting! Now, I'm wondering if it would work out well if we put ordinary floating plants in the top of the mattenfilter chamber. They should be confined in that area, so they wouldn't spread all over the tank. And, the other advantages are......uh.....


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## jccaclimber

Riccia and lilaeopsis grow out of mine. It does seem like floaters such as duckweed would stay contained.
Sewingalot, I found baby yellows in the control tank a couple weeks ago, as well as some in the co2/aluminum tank about a week ago. They may not be reproducing s quickly, but they are clearly surviving and reproducing in both.


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## Baadboy11

Hoppy said:


> That is interesting! Now, I'm wondering if it would work out well if we put ordinary floating plants in the top of the mattenfilter chamber. They should be confined in that area, so they wouldn't spread all over the tank. And, the other advantages are......uh.....


Now there's an idea! Love my red root floater, but man is it prolific...nearly killed everything under it last time I was gone a week.:frown:


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## jccaclimber

Baadboy11 said:


> Hey just saw this awesome idea when checking google!


I just noticed, it looks like the filter is being held in place with a suction cup. That might be a nice way to retrofit into an established tank.


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## sewingalot

I wonder if the suction cups would be wise for the shrimp. Seems like they could definitely wiggle back in the corner. Here is my update on this tank. It's been cleaned and moved to the area it is going to be. I cut the pieces for tank. I bought the silicone, cleaned the heater and pump. Filled up the co2, rinsed the turface. And then, I came to a standstill. Right after Christmas, I was hit hard with being sick. As a matter of fact, I have only been feeling better the last 3 days. 

But as forewarned, I did say this would be a _long _process. In the meantime, I came up with a brilliant plan which want to work on as soon as I am fully on my feet without feeling like I am going to keel over. Probably by next week I'll be ready with pictures.


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## Hoppy

I'm sorry about the health delay, but we all know that perseverance is your middle name. I'm looking forward to seeing your plan develop.

Meanwhile, I'm still in limbo - can't set up my tank until we can either sell and move, or decide we can't sell for a couple of years and stay. My plan slowly develops too.


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## Bahugo

Here is my step by step, it has been up and running for a few weeks currently. Using a a powerhead

*The railing* bought this at home depot for a few bucks, I got the piece that was 1 and 1/8 on each side so it can hold the foam in nicely. They are corner guards. 









*Measured and marked* too cut too size. 









* measured and Marked the outside of the tank with permanent marker. 









Corner guards siliconed in place. 
















*


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## Bahugo

Forgot a picture, this is what it looks like with the foam in and extension piece for powerhead. Powerhead isn't in the corner in this picture but you get the idea.


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## jsuereth

Ok, I'm confused. As always, love the look of the tank, but isn't this just a really awesome way to take a good ole sponge filter and put it into your main display tank without uglifying everything? Will an HMF provide the same filtration as a sponge filter of the same size/flow?

I love sponge filters, use a huge one in my sump. They're the biggest bang for the buck with filtration vs. price to set up and run. If I had seen how easy it is to set up your own sponge filter in the corner and run without a sump, I think I would have done so as well. These tanks and shots look great guys. I love learning new things on this forum.


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## jccaclimber

It is roughly a sponge filter. I think one of the main differences between this and a common LFS sponge filter is the material. A sponge filter from the LFS tends to be a very soft foam, so once the outside clogs it collapses on its self, which makes it clog faster. These tend to be made of a much stiffer foam, and so rather than collapsing on themselves, structure is maintained as the flow goes elsewhere, and bacteria eat out the original obstruction. The very large surface area helps with this as well.


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## jccaclimber

I set up four of these a couple weeks ago. They subtract around 1.25 gallons of swimming space from my 20 long tanks, but if anything slightly increase actual water volume*. Here are pictures from mid-setup, but before I really planted them.
Edit:None of my pictures anywhere on TPT are working, I'm assuming that once the issue with the hosting site is fixed they will work here too.


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## somewhatshocked

I'll be honest - I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of algae you can grow on that rig!

Not only have you caused me to closely examine every tank in every fish shop in this city but have also caused me to want to grow my own at home. All the algae potential and the added shrimp benefits of the foam seem like this is going to be a huge win.

Will likely be jumping on this bandwagon, algae depending. Exciting! 



Hoppy said:


> I'm looking forward to seeing your plan develop.


----------



## sewingalot

Bahugo- great illustrations, I appreciate you adding them to the thread!

Thanks, Hoppy on the well wishes. I am eventually getting there. Health delays suck, but life happens. How is the move coming along for you?

You are going to love this, Somewhat. The plan is for a clado wall of algae, basically the marimo ball but in carpet form. There are going to be plants as well, but nothing picked out in particular.

JC, I opted out of the aluminum. We have high concentration of iron and it's loving iron bacteria in our water. After leaving it in a tub of water for a little over month, it already showed major corrosion. When I was working with it after cleaning it off, it snapped in half. By the way, how are the shrimp doing? I just went back and read they are having babies. Still doing well?

Also, I cut myself on the glass I was planning on using and that didn't make me happy, either.

So eventually, I decided to get a piece of acrylic, cut it in 1" strips and sanded it down. I did manage to get this siliconed into the tank this weekend. I wanted to control how much silicone was in excess, so I used masking tape to produce cleaner edges. Just this wore me out physically. However, since the silicone needs curing time, I found this to be a good place to rest. Initally, I plan to use ammonia to help establish the clado and moss, so it won't be ready for shrimp for about a month.


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## jccaclimber

If I were to do mine again I would probably use glass just because I like the way it looks. Having christmas moss grow on the aluminum is a bonus, but I may have some freak christmas moss since it actually roots to the glass in my tank too.

The shrimp are well, and breeding. They aren't multiplying as fast as I had expected, although I think being cooped in a breeder net has a LOT to do with that. Either way, the population is increasing. It is increasing faster in the 10 gallon than in the 75, but the 75 sees EI dosing whereas the 10 gets nothing. I actually have a 20-Long ready for them, so I suspect the shrimp experiment will come to an end soon. Once I have enough to cull them out I'll throw some back in the molly tank and test them with salt.
Conclusion in my mind is that while the aluminum may slightly decrease the batches, it does not by any means kill them. Since then I've also had both my rummy noses and angels lay eggs (both eaten by others) in the tank with the aluminum.

I'm interested in seeing how the acrylic you used stays bonded to the silicone on a long term basis. I've been told this doesn't hold up (hence forth using glass which does), but I've never tried it myself. I have had good experiences with acrylic and RTV which is very similar.


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## sewingalot

So if we look at it, the aluminum still may not have an effect on the breeding. Shrimp do tend to slow down breeding based on the size of the tank. I've found shrimp to breed twice as fast without high levels of fertilizer and co2. (This isn't scientific, just a personal observation throughout the years.) The important thing is it doesn't kill them. Cool on the moss growing on the metal. I've also seen them grow on glass, but it was always where the scratches were.

I can tell you that I've used acrylic and plastics with silicone on glass for breeding in 10 gallons with much success. Had to use a razor blade to pop them off in the past. The only thing that concerns me on this setup is the pressure that will be put on the plastic strips. We shall see. Silicone is dry, but I realized I forgot to do the other side of the strip. So it looks like other delay.


----------



## somewhatshocked

I think this makes the HMF super-valuable for shrimpers. And it's going to make this thread that much more valuable in terms of knowledge. Cannot wait.

Gave in to peer pressure and started my own up last night in a 20G long. After getting over the initial nervousness (what the heck? It's not like I haven't run sponge filters for years, silly reasons to be nervous), I think this is going to be an awesome rig. Hiding the heater and other gear is more of a benefit than I had originally imagined.



sewingalot said:


> You are going to love this, Somewhat. The plan is for a clado wall of algae, basically the marimo ball but in carpet form.


----------



## jccaclimber

sewingalot said:


> So if we look at it, the aluminum still may not have an effect on the breeding. Shrimp do tend to slow down breeding based on the size of the tank. I've found shrimp to breed twice as fast without high levels of fertilizer and co2. (This isn't scientific, just a personal observation throughout the years.) The important thing is it doesn't kill them. Cool on the moss growing on the metal. I've also seen them grow on glass, but it was always where the scratches were.
> 
> I can tell you that I've used acrylic and plastics with silicone on glass for breeding in 10 gallons with much success. Had to use a razor blade to pop them off in the past. The only thing that concerns me on this setup is the pressure that will be put on the plastic strips. We shall see. Silicone is dry, but I realized I forgot to do the other side of the strip. So it looks like other delay.


If it stays on for the first couple weeks you're probably fine. Poret develops a bit of a memory.


----------



## PaulG

*possibly dumb question*

Won't the pump only be circulating water through small sections of the sponge? i.e leaving areas without oxygen for bacterial development.


----------



## lochaber

I'm not certain on this, but I believe the proportion of water moving through will be greatest nearest the intake, and will decrease with distance.

However, as the sponge gets colonized with bacteria/filled with mulm/junk/whatever, the flowrates for that area will decrease, and more will flow through other areas.

And, having a _huge_ amount of area, it's quite unlikely for the whole thing to get clogged enough to cause a problem (as long as you don't do something like, say, dump a bag of flour in your aquarium (but, then, you have plenty of other problems...))

but I'm pretty sure even the areas far away from the pump intake will see water flow, it will just be much less then areas closer to the intake. Also, I imagine the further the sponge is from the pump, the more equal the flow rates would be.

I think?


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## jccaclimber

The resistance through the foam is significantly higher than behind it, so it will move through it uniformly enough as long as there is an inch or so gap behind it. If a section does get clogged, the intake area is large enough that flow will go another route until the bacteria have cleared it out.


----------



## sewingalot

jccaclimber said:


> If it stays on for the first couple weeks you're probably fine. Poret develops a bit of a memory.


Checked on it this morning and it is holding! Waiting a few more days to flood the tank.


----------



## longbeach

So you want to grow algae and moss??? Here is my HMF filter after 5 years... I do need to clean it this spring... and sorry the pic isn't great but the filter is in my 55 gal and is approx 12" X 20"... it just keeps running.. love it.

The algae looks awful but is only about 1.5 - 2" thick


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## Hoppy

I'm back working on my 65 gallon mattenfilter setup. We decided to put off our moving for another year or more, so I can set up my tank again.

Today I found some acrylic corner protectors at Tap Plastics - $8 for a 1" x 1" x 48 inch piece. I cut two pieces to size with a hacksaw, then used 100% clear silicone to attach them to the glass, using a piece of masking tape as a guide to get them right where I want them. The silicone is now curing:









The little pieces of masking tape are to keep them from sliding until the silicone sets up a little. 

The Poret sponge fits nicely, and the Powerhead, a Boyu clone of a Koralia, does too. The pipe conncecting the power head is from Home Depot, a sink drain pipe-1 1/4 inch dia.


















Now to see if the silicone sealant is strong enough bonding to acrylic to hold this for the next couple of days as it finishes curing. Given the large surface area of bonding, I don't expect a problem.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Love all the updates and pics in this thread - I've been following it from the start.
Hoppy, is your 65g the largest tank on this thread using this filtration? I ask because I am the lucky recipient of a 125g set up, and even though it's coming with canisters, I'd really like to try a HMF instead. 
Would any of you suggest two (opposite ends) for that size tank? Since the tank will be seen from both ends, I was considering box or "U" shaped filters, placed about 10 - 12" in from the ends of the tank, up against the back wall.


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## Hoppy

I don't know if mine is the biggest or not, but with a long tank like yours I think I would put the mattenfilter across one end, and use a big enough Koralia type powerhead to ensure that water would be moving at the other end. This might require a second Koralia at that end. You could do the calculation linked to early in this thread to see how much flow is ideal for that size tank.


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## jccaclimber

driftwoodhunter said:


> Love all the updates and pics in this thread - I've been following it from the start.
> Hoppy, is your 65g the largest tank on this thread using this filtration? I ask because I am the lucky recipient of a 125g set up, and even though it's coming with canisters, I'd really like to try a HMF instead.
> Would any of you suggest two (opposite ends) for that size tank? Since the tank will be seen from both ends, I was considering box or "U" shaped filters, placed about 10 - 12" in from the ends of the tank, up against the back wall.


My 75 uses this filtration. I also have a photo of a tank with altums and several dozen L046 plecos using this filtration. I don't want to post the picture here as it isn't my tank, although I did take the photo.


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## HX67

driftwoodhunter said:


> Hoppy, is your 65g the largest tank on this thread using this filtration? I ask because I am the lucky recipient of a 125g set up, and even though it's coming with canisters, I'd really like to try a HMF instead.


My 250 gal brackish is filtered with a version of HMF.
Couple of pics on page 2.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

I suppose I could even have one Koralia at the end, and one positioned at a different angle midway, attached to the back. I'd like to try & avoid having a HMF across the entire side of the tank - I'm probably going to have to set it up in such a way that one end faces the dining table, and one faces the living room. If I do set it up that way, I'd have the filter on the dining room side (where I'd see it less since I usually eat in front of the computer) & cover the end glass when I have dinner guests, so they don't get grossed out - lol. Actually, the more I think about it, the more do-able it seems and I like it...
jccaclimber, where did you locate yours?
HX67, I'm on my way to look!


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Hmmm. I don't know why, but since I've changed to Google Chrome, some pics won't show on this site (this is the only site I'm having issues with). HX67, your pic on page 2 is one of them. All the other pics are showing. Go figure.


----------



## jccaclimber

I bent mine 90* and put it in the back right corner of the tank. Behind it is my heater, pump, and CO2 reactor tube. I'm also using a piece of Poret sized for a 55 in a 75 gallon tank with no issues. I do have a spot with a bit less light getting to it between my filter and the front of the tank though. I think I would try to make it a bit wider and less deep if I did it again.


----------



## jccaclimber

driftwoodhunter said:


> Hmmm. I don't know why, but since I've changed to Google Chrome, some pics won't show on this site (this is the only site I'm having issues with). HX67, your pic on page 2 is one of them. All the other pics are showing. Go figure.


I'm using Chrome as well. The picture is on page 1 for me though, not page 2.


----------



## HX67

driftwoodhunter said:


> Hmmm. I don't know why, but since I've changed to Google Chrome, some pics won't show on this site (this is the only site I'm having issues with). HX67, your pic on page 2 is one of them. All the other pics are showing. Go figure.


Go figure. Try this album link, the first pics show the filter: http://kuvablogi.com/blog/11867/2/


----------



## HX67

jccaclimber said:


> I'm using Chrome as well. The picture is on page 1 for me though, not page 2.



Darn, I never thought we have different page length options.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

HX67 said:


> Darn, I never thought we have different page lengths.


we don't, I'm an idiot! lol
I didn't even bother to go look at page 1... ; )
However, some of the pics on page 4 that were showing up for me earlier today aren't showing up now. I wonder what's going on?

I forgot your tank was so large, I need to go back & reread the entire thread...


----------



## driftwoodhunter

hey HX67, I love the album! What is that thing that looks like a mudskipper, chowing down on a shrimp? It's a great album showing the tank build!


----------



## jccaclimber

HX67 said:


> Darn, I never thought we have different page length options.


Post # 20 right?


----------



## Hoppy

I put some pool filter sand over the base of the "stool" that the mattenfilter sits on, primarily to avoid water circulating inside the filter directly from the MTS substrate level, and without having to use more than one bag of Black Diamond which will be my top substrate layer. The mineralized topsoil is commercial "topsoil" from Lowes, which contains composted forest materials, sandy loam, and composted manure. I used the oven method to mineralize it - baked it in a stainless steel stockpot at 400F for an hour. (The smell was very mild, and not at all unpleasant.)

The hole in the Poret foam is just two cuts through the foam at right angles, with the tube then forced into the "hole". Seems to be a good way to do it, instead of trying to actually cut a round hole.


----------



## HX67

driftwoodhunter said:


> hey HX67, I love the album! What is that thing that looks like a mudskipper, chowing down on a shrimp? It's a great album showing the tank build!


Thanks. It looks like and is a mudskipper that was in that tank for awhile.
I've been meaning to update the album, the tank is just a tank now, I got rid of the upper box when I killed the mangroves and saw no point in having the top anymore.
But the filter is still working like a charm. I clean it less than yearly.

Yea, shoulda mentioned the number of the post, not the page. Lesson learned.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

I never knew anyone that had a mudskipper before, very cool!
As for the pics I can't see, they're actually jccaclimber's. As you can see, I was confused as to who was posting what - lol.
Hoppy, that looks good! Love the tip about cutting slits, rather than a hole. I imagine an "X" would work too. I am really looking forward to trying this out, and I'd like to hide my heater behind it, too.


----------



## jccaclimber

The forum I'm hosting my images at recently changed their policy from hot-linking allowed and encouraged to hot-linking blocked. I just found out today and still haven't moved my pictures and fixed the links.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Thanks for telling us, I was worried it had something to do with Chrome!


----------



## Hoppy

driftwoodhunter said:


> Hoppy, that looks good! Love the tip about cutting slits, rather than a hole. I imagine an "X" would work too. I am really looking forward to trying this out, and I'd like to hide my heater behind it, too.


It is an "X" cut, and it works very well. But, my oven mineralizing didn't work well. I stirred up the still warm soil and it still had a smell, so I added water and rebaked it. This time it filled the house with the smell of composted bark. And, my wife returned before I could air out the place. Needless to say, it is now on to Plan B.:hihi:


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Oops! I thought you meant an "L" when you said right angles. I'd love to know what your wife said about baking soil in her oven - LOL


----------



## jccaclimber

"X" or "+" cuts work well, and will 99% re-seal if you decide not to use them later. For my 20 longs I just made a slit down from the top so that I can adjust the height of the air driven lift tubes. It takes a little while to seal around the tube, but it does before the tank is done cycling, at least for me.


----------



## Daximus

Hoppy said:


> Needless to say, it is now on to Plan B.:hihi:


Priceless!

I'm loving this thread, almost makes me want to tear down my 90 and sell my canister. Keep posting y'all!


----------



## sewingalot

longbeach said:


> So you want to grow algae and moss??? Here is my HMF filter after 5 years... I do need to clean it this spring... and sorry the pic isn't great but the filter is in my 55 gal and is approx 12" X 20"... it just keeps running.. love it.
> 
> The algae looks awful but is only about 1.5 - 2" thick


Very nice! I'd love to have a sample of that algae for my collection!!! 

Okay, Hoppy glad to hear about the move since that means you are setting up the tank. Way to make me look bad on my laziness. :hihi: 

By the way, I have decided to sell of all three of my canisters, an inline heater, and cerges reactor and go to either HMF in all tanks or sponge filters depending on the cost.

Onto my news without pictures, I poked a hole in my sponge with scissors and forced the tubing into it. It forms a really tight seal. I haven't gotten much further than that as I am now trying to locate the suction cup holder for my powerhead. This is so slow going. 

I really like your setup, Hoppy! That is cool. But I think HX67 is the winner still.


----------



## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> I really like your setup, Hoppy! That is cool. But I think HX67 is the winner still.


For sure! Competing with that is like me trying out for a NBA team.:help:


----------



## Beer

You guys have me thinking now.
My tank is too small to fit a 2" thick piece of foam across the back, and I think even a corner or even half circle in the center would still be too much.
One of the biggest issues is finding a pump that would only turn over a 7 gallon tank two or three times.
My idea is to run a HOB style filter.
I'll use a pump that puts out 42GPH. Put the pickup at the center of the back wall, then push the output to the bottom of the filter housing. I would split half of the flow to each side. I would make a spray-bar type output that pushes the water down against the bottom of the housing to minimize channeling thru the filter. This would cause the water to flow up from the bottom, thru the filter pad, then out the water fall return back into the tank.
Splitting the output of the pump would put 21GPH (79.5L/Hr) thru each half, 3x turnover for each side.
5 cm/min of flow thru a 2" filter (5cm) comes out to 1 min of contact time for the water to pass thru the filter (typical setup from what I've read thru so far). So, If I were to use a 6 inch (15.25cm) filter hight and stuck with 1 minute to flow thru the filter, this would give me a flow rate of 15.25 cm/min thru the filter. This is within the recommended range, altho a bit on the high side.

So using the equations posted earlier:

Area of the filter = tank turnover rate x volume thru filter x 1000 / (flow rate thru mat x 60)
(6)(79.5L/Hr)(1000cm3/L)/[(15.25cm/min)(60min)] = 521.3 cm2 = 80.75 in2

If each half of the filter was 7.25" long, this would give 14.5" in total filter length.
Area = Length x width, then width = A/L => 80.75 in2 / 14.5" = 5.56" width for the filter.

I'm thinking of putting a 1/4-1/2" thick piece of foam with similar density around the pickup to keep baby shrimp out of the intake (similar to how a center overflow would be set up). This should keep debris out of the filter, which should prevent high flow areas that can occur in a normal setup. So the higher flow rate that I would have shouldn't be an issue.

What are your opinions on this?
I may have a couple of conceptual errors, but it's late and makes perfect sense to me right now. I hope this makes sense, I may have to revise it this afternoon.


----------



## Hoppy

I have a piece of black poster board as a background now ($0.49 cost). It really makes the mattenfilter fade out of view!










It just occurred to me that using a thin piece of Poret foam as a background would really make the filter vanish.


----------



## sewingalot

Hoppy said:


> I have a piece of black poster board as a background now ($0.49 cost). It really makes the mattenfilter fade out of view!


I <3 poster board. It's an excellent and cheap way to have a background. I like to change colors for the fun of it. (By the way yellow is an awful choice.) It really does change the appearance



> It just occurred to me that using a thin piece of Poret foam as a background would really make the filter vanish.


Not only that, but it would be more surface for bacteria and you could easily get moss to grow on it!

I am planning on setting up a moss wall on the back and sides. I thought it would be a neat idea.


----------



## sewingalot

Beer, the HMF only needs a turnover of 1, but preferably 2. Too high of a turnover and the purpose of the filter is lost from the research I've gathered. Your idea does sound good, but I do have one concern. With all the modifications, you may be pushing the HOB too hard. It could overheat easily. The sponge you get, you should make sure the PPI is at least 45 and not more dense. If it weren't for the shrimp, I'd say 20. You'll need to clean out the sponge frequently (once a week) in this manner to keep the HOB running consistently and to avoid it shutting down entirely.


----------



## Hoppy

I ordered some Christmas Moss to grow on my Poret foam. I had very good luck with it growing on everything the last time I used it, and I like its appearance. I was about to order some floaters to grow above the filter chamber, but noticed just in time that I can't see the top of the filter because the light sits on that area. That floater idea would be very nice for a tank with a hanging light.

I also bought my Black Diamond blasting grit today. I think with that as the substrate top layer the mattenfilter will be essentially invisible.


----------



## sewingalot

Christmas moss will be lovely. How are you planning to attach it? I am not sure if super glue will be best as it might block the flow, but it would be easy. 

I finally got the stand level this evening. I am a little worried since I've never had a tank on carpet in this house before. I remember at my childhood house, the tank would move easily if you walked by it, but that was before I knew you needed to level tanks. I am hoping there won't be an issue. Planning to flood the tank tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## cableguy69846

sewingalot said:


> Christmas moss will be lovely. How are you planning to attach it? I am not sure if super glue will be best as it might block the flow, but it would be easy.
> 
> I finally got the stand level this evening. I am a little worried since I've never had a tank on carpet in this house before. I remember at my childhood house, the tank would move easily if you walked by it, but that was before I knew you needed to level tanks. I am hoping there won't be an issue. Planning to flood the tank tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.


Just pay attention to it as you fill it. Sometimes carpet can throw off the leveling a bit. Sometimes my tanks shake, but that is just my cue to stop walking like an elephant.:hihi: (And the house is 70+ years old.)


----------



## jccaclimber

I find that pins, the kind with the big plastic ball at one end, work well to hold things in place on this foam while they root in. After a couple weeks I remove the pins. They do rust a but but that doesn't seem to hurt anything. I've also done plastic mesh, but it can be tricky keeping the mesh pressed up against the foam.


----------



## PinoyBoy

A few months to a year later...










Source: http://plecoplanet.com/?page_id=446


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## Hoppy

I hate to admit that I haven't thought much about attaching the moss to the foam. One possibility is remove it from the tank, then sewing the foam to it with black thread. I suppose the flow through the foam is too slow to hold the moss in place?

Since moss does grow upwards toward the light I could just put it at the bottom and let it find its own way up?

Another way is staples.


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## jccaclimber

The flow in mine is too slow to keep a human hair or plant leaf in place, so I'm pretty sure moss is out too. Mine is *SLOWLY* creeping upwards, but mostly grows out. It would probably depend on the orientation of your light relative to the filter as well.


----------



## Hoppy

I recall Plantbrain telling me that staples are a great way to attach stuff. Has anyone tried that with Poret foam?


----------



## longbeach

You could also put a slit in the foam and slip some of the moss into that. The foam would hold it and close up as mentioned in a previous post. (of course no need to slit it all the way thru)


----------



## sewingalot

I just tried staples, but they pop right out. I think the ppi is too loose for the staples to hold the moss. I also just tried the sewing pins like Jc suggested and it works great, especially at an angle toward the bottom. I have the stainless steel ones, so they shouldn't rust. I also have flat headed steel pins I could use if I didn't feel like removing them. The only thing that worries me about that is the fact they may work themselves out later and it would really suck to find them during maintenance jammed into your fingers. The colored pins are better for that issue.

Well, I just stopped in to reveal that. I am going back to work on this. I decided to only put up a little bit of moss and let it fill in just to know how long it will take to cover the wall. I need to find suction cups for my moss wall. The ones I bought at the craft store won't stay stuck underwater. Any tips on good suction cups?


----------



## cableguy69846

sewingalot said:


> I just tried staples, but they pop right out. I think the ppi is too loose for the staples to hold the moss. I also just tried the sewing pins like Jc suggested and it works great, especially at an angle toward the bottom. I have the stainless steel ones, so they shouldn't rust. I also have flat headed steel pins I could use if I didn't feel like removing them. The only thing that worries me about that is the fact they may work themselves out later and it would really suck to find them during maintenance jammed into your fingers. The colored pins are better for that issue.
> 
> Well, I just stopped in to reveal that. I am going back to work on this. I decided to only put up a little bit of moss and let it fill in just to know how long it will take to cover the wall. I need to find suction cups for my moss wall. The ones I bought at the craft store won't stay stuck underwater. Any tips on good suction cups?


Try the suction cups with the metal hook like for hanging Christmas lights in the window. Just pull off the metal hook. The don't work so well on the windows, but they work great underwater.roud:


----------



## Beer

Sewingalot, I was planning on using a submersible pump or power head. From what I've found, the lowest I've been able to find is around 42gph if the pump selected to lowest output.
With a prefilter of sorts before the pump, there would be no solids block up the HMF pads in the HOB section. Also, the prefilter would prevent anything from getting to the HMF, so I could go with a less dense foam for the HMF section.
I may have time tomorrow to try to make some drawings to go along with my explanations.


----------



## Hoppy

longbeach said:


> You could also put a slit in the foam and slip some of the moss into that. The foam would hold it and close up as mentioned in a previous post. (of course no need to slit it all the way thru)


This seems like a winner! I will try this in the next few days, and hopefully I can do it underwater without excess problems. But, doing it with the foam out on a table would be easiest.


----------



## jccaclimber

Careful with that. If you slit it in the center of the curve it will hold open since that portion of the foam is in tension. On the flat sections the slits work pretty well. Fishing line (needs removing) and cotton string (rots away) also work pretty well.


----------



## Hoppy

Horizontal slits, only a quarter inch deep should work even on the curve, right? I can see that vertical slits would be a mistake. Since sewing isn't one of my favorite activities I don't think I will try the fishing line/cotton string idea. But sewingalot just might possibly not mind doing some sewing?


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## jccaclimber

I didn't think about horizontal slots. Yes, that will work.


----------



## sewingalot

Pinoyboy, great illustration. Thanks for including that!

Beer, yes a drawing would be great. I am still kind of lost with the HOB (hang on back) part you are talking about. I think I am getting some of what you are saying, though. You are looking for a way to use less foam to save space, correct?

Hoppy, even I ended up being lazy and used pins. Unfortunately, it's not as pretty as the other methods.

Here is the frustrating part, I may need to take the tank down and start over. On the right side of the plastic track, I apparently cut the foam a little crooked. As a result, it is a fraction too small for the left track piece at the very top and it eventually pops out of the track. I remedied this by cutting a thin piece of foam and wedging it along the track, basically a foam extension of the track as it is about 3/4" in depth and 1/2" wide and pressed flat on the glass against the plastic track (see the red part of the drawing). So far it is holding, but I am wondering if it will cause an issue long term as far as filtration and being secure? The only way to fix the issue for sure is to remove the water and substrate, pop off the plastic and silicone it 1/4" closer to the right. Thoughts?


----------



## jccaclimber

Can you poke some holes through the plastic track and sew the foam to it in a couple places?


----------



## sewingalot

I'm afraid not without something hot like a heated screw or a drill if it were removed from the glass since the drill would hit the glass. The plastic is pretty thick.  I am pretty bummed. But it wouldn't be me if I didn't screw something up along the way.  I'll see what I can do about getting pictures to show it better.


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## jccaclimber

Leather awl or leather whole punch? If you lived closer to me I'd loan you my fender punch for stainless bicycle fenders.


----------



## Hoppy

You should be able to silicone on a wedge of foam. The looks won't matter since it is behind the support.


----------



## sewingalot

So here is what I was talking about. See the cut in the top right?









So I cut a piece of foam and did this:




































Think it will hold up in the long run?

Oh and here is a FTS of the intial setup. Yeah, I know it's not algae and is moss and subwassertang and not much to start out. The algae will show up soon enough, so don't worry.  Actually, this would be awesome covered in subwassertang. 









Also, I know this sounds stupid, but I am a little worried on plugging in the heater. For some reason, I am thinking the powerhead, co2 and heater all being crammed back there will create too much heat and cause an issue like melting or worse. I know the HMF are also designed to hide equipment, but I'm still a little apprehensive.

Oh and thanks for the offer, jccaclimber.


----------



## jccaclimber

In my 75 I have my heater, pump, and CO2 behind mine and it is the exact same temp as the rest of my aquarium. Remember that there is lots of flow back there. In my 20s it's a couple degrees warmer back there, but I also don't have nearly as much flow through them.


----------



## sewingalot

That's good to know on the heat. I am going to wait until I find my thermometer to plug in the heater to be sure.

I was really surprised at the amount of flow in the tank and behind the foam. I was a little worried until I figured the seeding of the filter will slow it down some more. Do you ever have to clean the powerheads? I am worried about that as it was a pain to wedge it in place. If I had thought this through, I would have made it an inch bigger in diameter for some leverage.

Still need to plant the tank and hook up the co2, but I can't locate the powerstrip I was using. As soon as that is located, I'll get to work. Enough gabbing, and more searching.

Thanks for helping me get this far on the project!


----------



## jccaclimber

I've heard you may need to clean the pump periodically, but I haven't needed to clean mine yet. One up side to this is that the foam acts as a pre-filter for the pump and the sand/grit from the tank doesn't eat at the impeller. Don't expect the flow behind the filter to change much though. With a needle wheel pump you'll notice the water behind the filter being lower than in front before the flow changes much. For the pump in my 75 lets say there is 1 foot of head loss due to the bends through my CO2 system, flow diffuser, etc. Since the pump doesn't stall until 7 or 8 feet of head, there's still lots of flow at 2 feet head loss. What this means is that until the water behind my filter is a full 12 inches lower than the tank the filter still has a similar flow rate (and doesn't really need to be cleaned).


----------



## sewingalot

That'll help me understand when or if I'll need to clean it. I was smart to use a powerhead that I have spare parts to and is easy to replace as it is common. 

How long has yours been running again? I am glad that it'll have a prefilter effect to it as this is a concern for me. I was going to put plants in the area behind the foam, but opted out because of the thought of debris clogging the powerhead from dying leaves and roots as it was shaded out. Instead, I am thinking of growing moss or plants on the _ledge _of the foam.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

So many excellent ideas and points made! 

I plan on using this for the 125 I'll be getting - what size range of powerheads do you think I should be looking at? It's also good to see the foam seeded with moss, I would like to seed mine with something, (riccia, java fern, etc) but I was worried about plant growth blocking the effectiveness of the filtration system.


----------



## jccaclimber

Mine has been running in this tank since 7/13/2011. I used the same foam in a 55 that failed, and a clear plastic container starting some time in the spring. I've heard of these things running for over a decade with nothing but an occasional pump cleaning and maybe a 12 or 24 month foam de-gunking.


----------



## somewhatshocked

I'm betting you'll have little if any problem.

*IF* you do - it should be easy and cheap to install some sort of bracing system. Maybe acrylic rods that are weighted at the bottom or large gauge stainless steel mesh? 

This is looking terrific and I cannot wait for the algae. 



sewingalot said:


> So here is what I was talking about. See the cut in the top right?


----------



## wkndracer

Sara I have 5 months running time on both my systems without any flow changes that I can see. Both are the smallest / lowest flow power heads sold (5w MaxJets).


----------



## Daximus

It looks really good Sewingalot! Blends into the back like a mossy rock very well. I really like this idea. Saves energy (powerhead<canister), leak proof, hides all your stuff, easy to clean, no more monthly media changes...heck it probably saves fish food! I can totally see my angels picking at the leftovers stuck in the sponge all day. So awesome, can't wait to see all the algae!


----------



## Hoppy

Daximus said:


> It looks really good Sewingalot! Blends into the back like a mossy rock very well. I really like this idea. Saves energy (powerhead<canister), leak proof, hides all your stuff, easy to clean, no more monthly media changes...heck it probably saves fish food! I can totally see my angels picking at the leftovers stuck in the sponge all day. So awesome, can't wait to see all the algae!


Why do people keep wanting to see algae??? :icon_evil I don't want to see algae, ever, anywhere. I got my tank filled with water, and some plants in place, including the moss on the Poret foam. I used a utility knife to cut slits about a half inch deep and long, then use my finger to poke the moss into the slit. It was easy.









Needless to say, the water is cloudy now, from the MTS substrate layer, I think. When the powerhead first started it sucked a lot of water from under the foam, through about 3 inches of Black Diamond and pool filter sand, but the water still contained stuff from the MTS. Hopefully it will be gone tomorrow.


----------



## Daximus

Hoppy said:


> Why do people keep wanting to see algae???


Because Sewingalot is always joking about her algae growing skills. It's not literal, but it is very funny. :hihi:




sewingalot said:


> Very nice! I'd love to have a sample of that algae for my collection!!!





sewingalot said:


> For me, algae will be expected to grow on this fitration, specifically Cladophora.


I even found a poem she wrote about algae, lol, had me rolling.


----------



## sewingalot

Driftwood, according to the most common accepted belief on the HMF, you want at least between 1 and 2 turnovers per gallons of water. Get too high and you loose the point of the filtration as the bacteria don't colonize as well. So I'd aim for 250 (125 x 2) gph powerhead or stay within that range.

Thanks for the info, jc and wknd! Always pleasant to hear more that will help me succeed with this project. Those are great ideas, somewhat. I'll keep those in mind if this fails. So far holding steady.

Your wall is great, Hoppy. I am thinking the slits are a much better and viable option. Only, I wonder if shrimp could get caught in them? Probably not, but a curious thought that passed in my mind. I am looking forward to seeing it progress. So now that it is up and running, what do you think so far of the looks? I honestly like the looks of it.



Hoppy said:


> Why do people keep wanting to see algae??? :icon_evil I don't want to see algae, ever, anywhere.


Remind me never to link you to my algae blog (my other hobby).  Why all this talk of algae? Because algae is awesome! You can actually tell how health the water is depending on which type of algae and how much grows in the water, it supplies the world of much of its oxygen and is the beginning of many creatures food chain. Don't like algae? Blasphemy! :icon_cool By the way, it is kind of appropriate to mention algae at this point. Wait until you see my wall once the camera battery charges. I made some changes for the better.



Daximus said:


> Because Sewingalot is always joking about her algae growing skills. It's not literal, but it is very funny. :hihi:
> 
> I even found a poem she wrote about algae, lol, had me rolling.


Actually, it is _very literal_.  I have a collection of algae specimens I grow. I am quite enamored with the microscopic world of aquatics. In fact, I accept donations and not many help me out with this as they think I kid. :icon_cry: 

Here are some of my children:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh38/sewingalot/Aquarium2/IMG_3683a.jpg

I've seen these filters even on Discus tanks and they were very successful. I think once it is actually up and running, we'll all be impressed.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

I don't know about the algae, but I love that built-in!

Thanks for the info on what size powerhead to look for. I'm going to start collecting things I need to get the tank set up, so I'll be ready when I get it. I still have to figure out where it's going to go, tile the floor, and get the underneath of the mobile home shored up! Plenty of time to hunt supplies - good thing I'm willing to take my time with this...I'm very excited to be trying this method of filtration.


----------



## sewingalot

Driftwood, if you are planning to cover this in a moss or such, I now recommend getting maybe a little stronger powerhead as now that I have the wall covered mostly, the power head is moving just a little less fast. I found this out by placing a leaf in the tank and timing how many seconds it took to circle back to the beginning before and after attaching stuff to the wall. After it was all said and done, it slowed down the current by a little over 2 seconds. I hope you are following this.

And here is the update you've all been waiting for! Feeling like a sell-out from my original plans, I decided to suck it up and stick with my non-conformist attitude. After all, just having a HMF filtration system is all about trying new (old) territory in planted tank waters. So without further delay:

The cladophora algae wall!!!


















Comprised of two very small marimo balls ripped into pieces (by the way, if someone is claiming to sell a tennis ball size of anything, get them to hold up a ruler to avoid any confusion. Apparently, the size of these tennis balls are deflated quite a bit as they were barely over an inch at the widest point):









The cool thing was the pins weren't really needed as it stuck right to the wall. If I had thought about it, I would have ground this up in the food processor and smeared it on and covered it in mesh. That would have been much easier. 

Only down side? If I ever sell plants from this tank, I'll need to add a disclaimer about the giant algae wall. :biggrin:


----------



## Daximus

Yay! I knew algae was coming! Looks great!


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## driftwoodhunter

That _does_ look great! I'm glad you had the foresight to time a circulating leaf prior to adding the clado - clever! I appreciate your info : )


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## somewhatshocked

OH MY GOODNESS. I am copycatting you ASAP. Your tank looks great as-is and in a year? This will look crazy awesome. 

This thread has taught me more about water flow and sponge filtration than I ever thought I could learn. Thanks to everyone for continuing to chime in and sharing your experiences. Really encouraging.



sewingalot said:


> Driftwood, if you are planning to cover this in a moss or such, I now recommend getting maybe a little stronger powerhead as now that I have the wall covered mostly, the power head is moving just a little less fast. I found this out by placing a leaf in the tank and timing how many seconds it took to circle back to the beginning before and after attaching stuff to the wall. After it was all said and done, it slowed down the current by a little over 2 seconds. I hope you are following this.
> 
> And here is the update you've all been waiting for! Feeling like a sell-out from my original plans, I decided to suck it up and stick with my non-conformist attitude. After all, just having a HMF filtration system is all about trying new (old) territory in planted tank waters. So without further delay:
> 
> The cladophora algae wall!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Comprised of two very small marimo balls ripped into pieces (by the way, if someone is claiming to sell a tennis ball size of anything, get them to hold up a ruler to avoid any confusion. Apparently, the size of these tennis balls are deflated quite a bit as they were barely over an inch at the widest point):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The cool thing was the pins weren't really needed as it stuck right to the wall. If I had thought about it, I would have ground this up in the food processor and smeared it on and covered it in mesh. That would have been much easier.
> 
> Only down side? If I ever sell plants from this tank, I'll need to add a disclaimer about the giant algae wall. :biggrin:


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## sewingalot

Thanks fellow algae supporters. :hihi:

I do wish I had chopped the algae up and spread it on the foam and grew it out first. Hindsight, eh? There are parts that it is too thick and I am thinking it needs spread out a little better to really take hold.

Hoppy will probably abandon this thread in horror of algae pictures. I think it will be cool to see his moss wall versus my algae wall in a few months.


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## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> Hoppy will probably abandon this thread in horror of algae pictures. I think it will be cool to see his moss wall versus my algae wall in a few months.


I briefly considered hanging myself:icon_cry: But, I want to see how my Hamburger Mattenfilter (I love that name) works.


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## HX67

I'm a bit worried for sewingalot.

I've tried java moss, java fern and Anubias on HMFs and had some luck on occasion.
But the Clados I've had have grown to be quite dense and thick. I hope it doesn't block flow when/if it grows in.
Nevertheless, interesting to see how it goes.


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## chad320

Good point HX67, but the inlet would only have to be slightly larger than the outlet wouldnt it?


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## somewhatshocked

On a serious note... I think the specifics (and not the unnecessary commentary by, you know, _me_) of this thread should be considered as a sticky of some sort. Or linked somewhere of note.

Just because it seems to be a terrific option and is extremely low-cost for the amount of filtration provided. Great way for people to wade into this hobby without spending mountains of cash and this is a solid look at the efforts to be successful.


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## sewingalot

LOL @ the sticky, somewhat. The day my information becomes stickable, I'd be worried for the health of the forum. 



HX67 said:


> I'm a bit worried for sewingalot.
> 
> I've tried java moss, java fern and Anubias on HMFs and had some luck on occasion.
> But the Clados I've had have grown to be quite dense and thick. I hope it doesn't block flow when/if it grows in.
> Nevertheless, interesting to see how it goes.


I see your point on this. So what could happen is the filter could stop functioning? What if sections of it were kept free of algae and plant matter entirely? Could that prevent issues? I figured I would keep it trimmed down but let it cover it entirely. If the powerhead would be the failure, could that be replaced for an airpump? 

I think I will continue to let it grow and see what happens. Worst case scenario, it fails and people will see not to try this on their own. I figured I can always pull it off if it becomes an issue.


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## jccaclimber

Assuming you are using a powerhead you should get plenty of warning. The water level behind it would drop with flow. If you densely planted say the upper half but not the lower half I assume the upper half would have very little flow, and thus not contribute much.


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## Hoppy

I notice that the water level behind my filter is about 1/8 inch lower than the water outside. Is this typical? I kind of expected it to drop more than that, but I have no reason for that expectation.


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## jccaclimber

Mine was pretty much level for the first couple months and crept to between 1/8 and 1/4 inch. If you measure the flow/head loss chart for your pump you can make some flow assumptions from that.


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## sewingalot

So basically look for a difference in the water levels in the tank and behind the filter. That's easy enough. 

I looked at my tank and the line is still level, Hoppy. Maybe your powerhead has too high of a turnover? Out of curiosity, I flipped mine to high, it dropped the water a bit, but when it is run on low, there is no difference. Another thing I was thinking could it be the platform you built is not allowing the water to seep back as fast as it would in addition to using a powerhead? Some thoughts that went through my head as I do remember that they did say on a few forums that the powerhead turnover needed to be chosen based on the size of the foam to prevent various issues. 

Having one problem with this tank in the sewing room I wasn't expecting. I am getting a lot of "dust" (fabric cutting creates a lot little specks of thread) in the tank. So I am planning to make a cover for the tank. Wondering if this will impact the filter at all. Don't think it will, but I haven't seen any HMF with tight fitting lids.


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## jccaclimber

I have seen plenty of completely covered HMF tanks, it'll be fine.


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## longbeach

For those algae lovers the filter will make (Collect) nice algae. I will syphon off my filter occasionaly to reduce some of the algae.

From a previous post I mentioned that my full size filter has been running 6 years (55 gallon tank) now and will have to clean it this year. Just rinse and smack it a few times...no squeeze as to not damage the cells.

I have adjusted my pump so that the water level on both sides is almost equal. It works well for me, with just a constant flow, but I did need to make a spray bar to break up the return current.


----------



## Beer

I know someone else asked this, but I'm not sure if it got answered.
Does anybody know what thickness foam is assumed for the calculations?
It makes a huge difference in the area of the foam and the desired flow rate.

Unless I'm mistaken, the purpose of this is to create an anaerobic area so the bacteria will consume the nitrates. To get the anaerobic areas, there needs to be a certain amount of contact time within the foam. Just selecting a desired flow rate through the foam may not give enough time for the bacteria to consume the oxygen and create the anaerobic areas for the nitrate consumption.
For example:
3" filter is 7.62cm
a 5cm/min flow rate means that it takes just over 1.5min for the water to flow through the filter.
7.5cm/min is just about a minute
10cm/min is about 45 seconds

2" filter is about 5cm
5cm/min is 1min of contact time
7.5cm/min is 40 seconds
10cm/min is 30 seconds

The thickness of the foam makes a huge difference. if the calculations were based on 3" foam and you were only able to source 2" foam (or used a larger pore size or higher density foam), you could be defeating the purpose and are just cluttering your tank. What if you also couldn't find a pump with a low enough flow to get below 10cm/min through the filter and are closer to 20cm/min? You are looking at 15 seconds to pass through the filter when you might be looking to have no less than 45 seconds or even a minute.

Has anybody found anything that addresses the thickness of the foam? The only English link I saw had no mention of the thickness of contact time through the filter.


----------



## Hoppy

As I recall the bacteria colony lives in the first half inch or so of the foam, so the rest of it is only there for structural strength. I can't remember where I read that so I can't link to it. It didn't make a lot of sense to me when I read it, so it may not be true.


----------



## sewingalot

I used the standard 2" depth in my calculations, it's on the German site I linked in the original post show how to figure it in. If you use google translator, it helps enough to understand it with a few readings. What Hoppy is saying is correct. The bacterial colony needs only a couple centimeters, I think they said around 2.5 (about an 1") at the most. The 2" is used for stability. In larger tanks, some prefer 3" for added strength, but the places I read most like to stay at 2" to avoid issues with flow.

Update on my status. Taking into consideration what HX67 stated about the flow, I decided to remove some of the clado at least for a while. The bacteria is being seeded with an old bag of media from another tank put behind the wall for a few weeks. The ammonia is now zero and the nitrites have spiked and are falling daily. I decided not to add fish right away because I wanted to lightly plant the tank at first to see what works in this setup. So far all the plants are doing well. Even the ludwigia sengalsis (sp?) I just got is growing new shoots and is looking good. I need to up the co2 a bit, according to the charts and a ph meter, I'm estimating it's between 9 - 14 ppm. Trying some more "difficult" species like cuphea to show that the HMF is working well with plants.

Forgot the picture!


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## Hoppy

My mattenfilter tank is now 12 days old. It is doing ok, but not spectacularly so. I had to remove a bunch of A. reinickii that did nothing but die after I planted it, and replaced it with H. pinnatifida, just this morning. It has 4 platys in it, doing fine. I removed two of the highest clumps of moss from the filter, when they became algae balls from being too close to the light. And, I added 3 teaspoons of Equilibrium, 1 dGH, to make the fish more comfortable. The plants on the left are Hydrothrix gardineri.


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## Beer

I ended up playing with google translator. I read thru four or five German sites. None of them mentioned anything about the colonizing of the first inch or anything about stability of the mat except when discussing material selection.
From my reading it all came down to flow rate through the filter to allow enough time for the bacteria to use up the oxygen to create anaerobic conditions.
Hoppy, I agree with you about the theory of the first half inch is colonized and the rest is for strength. If that were the case, a half inch of foam would be sufficient with a frame, or one inch would be fine. The foam doesn't support any loads and it isn't being exposed to high water currents, so it wouldn't require much extra support.
I've got my filter design figured out, but i think I'm going to hold off on building it. I'll wait until my tank is flooded and cycled to see what my nitrates do. My tank is going to be fairly heavily planted, so I may not even need to worry about nitrates anyway. I'll have to see what the plant uptake is. If it turns out to be an issue, I'll build the HMF more like a canister instead of a HOB since I have a nice rimless tank. I'll still have the half inch foam 'center overflow' section to act as a pre-filter for my small power heads, so it should be easy to set it up if I need it.


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## KH2PO4

Beer said:


> I ended up playing with google translator. I read thru four or five German sites. None of them mentioned anything about the colonizing of the first inch or anything about stability of the mat except when discussing material selection.


It's mentioned here.
http://www.deters-ing.de/Filtertechnik/FAQ.htm


> Wie stark sollte die Matte sein?
> 
> Es hat sich eine Mattenstärke von 5 cm bewährt. Sicherlich kann man sie auch stärker wählen, nur nimmt die Filterleistung damit nicht linear zu. Man sagt, dass sich die Hauptaktivität im ersten Zentimeter abspielt. Die weiteren Zentimeter dienen eher der Stabilität.





> From my reading it all came down to flow rate through the filter to allow enough time for the bacteria to use up the oxygen to create anaerobic conditions.


From the other post, it seems you want anaerobic condition to 
remove nitrate. According to this paragraph, although the Google translated 
text is not very clear, it sounds like nitrate removing is not a planned 
function of Mattenfilter. It requires you to do water change and/or use plants.



> Ist der Mattenfilter für Meerwasseraquarien verwendbar?
> 
> Normalerweise nicht. Planmäßig entwickelt der Mattenfilter ja Nitrat und das wird per Wasserwechsel und/oder Pflanzenwuchs entsorgt. Im MW-Aquarium sind die Wasserwechselmargen aber vernachlässigbar gering, so das dadurch keine Nitratentsorgung stattfindet. Auch nehmen die Algen etc. kaum Nitrat auf. Das Aquarium muss also mit dem ganzen Nitrat selber fertigwerden.
> In einem MW-Becken installiert man deshalb Abschäumer, die die Eisweiße etc. aus dem Wasser holen, bevor sie zum Nitrat werden.


Many soucrces state slow flow is the main concept for this type of filter, 
so bacteria can settle better.

http://www.aqua-aquaristik.de/mattenfilter.htm


> Durch dies große Filterfläche strömt das Wasser nur sehr langsam durch und die Bakterien können sich ansiedeln. Bei den Schnellfiltern ist die Durchströmgeschwindigkeit meist so hoch, dass die Bakterien sich nur sehr schlecht ansiedeln können.


sewingalot wouldn't please if there is a debate in this thread. :icon_redf
There is another thread for debating ideas.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/145106-hamburger-matten-filter-why-not.html


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## jccaclimber

I'm under the impression that nitrate removal works via anerobic bacteria+a protein skimmer+a salt water system. Note however this is all from things I've read, not done. Are we mixing things up?


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## Beer

From my reading of other sites that went a lot further in depth, there were discussions of anaerobic activity and nitrates.
I didn't look at the debate thread. I thought that would have been about usefulness in a planted tank, or if it actually works. I didn't realize discussing _how_ it actually works would be off topic. (not trying to be snarky, I just would have taken my discussion elsewhere if it wasn't wanted in this thread)
I was just trying to understand it better so I could build something that would suit my needs without destroying space in the small tank I was originally going to set up (7Gal bow) or ruining the esthetics in the tank I am now setting up (Mr. Aqua 12Gal long, rimless tank). I like my projects to look clean, especially if there is no stand or hood to hide them. A big chunk of 2" thick mat would ruin the layout I planned in either of those tanks.


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## Hoppy

I don't see how it would be possible to use 2 inch thick foam in a small tank. But, the smaller the mattenfilter, the less thickness of foam would be needed to keep it from collapsing from structural loads. I suspect that about 1 inch would be a minimum thickness that would work well, so tanks less than 10 gallon would seem to not be suited for mattenfilters.

When you searched that German website did you see examples of small tanks using them? Or, a statement about minimum tank size for one? If anyone knows, those folks would be the ones.


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## jccaclimber

I think at that point you just get a 4 inch cube of the stuff and stick it in a corner. That's what I did with my 10g. I used a slightly larger cube, but I was filtering for turtles at the time.


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## sewingalot

Beer, I hope you feel free to discuss how the Hamburger Mattenfilter works in this thread. This is thread is not just for the actual building and using of the HMF, but also people's experience with them long term. A journal of sorts. The debating thread is for those that want to discuss things like what's the point of using them.

For your earlier question, I went through and read the links on the space for the actual bacteria to live and here it states under Sizing a Mattenfilter: 

"There is a direct relation between water flow, pump capacity and filter surface. A direct result of this is the time it takes to make a single pass through the filter. This time is also related to the thickness of the filter medium. Increasing thickness means more time required. *With the Mattenfilter, it can safely be assumed that the actual oxidation takes place in the first one or two centimeters.*"

That linked article is actually pretty comprehensive and a great place to start in construction. 

But to be honest, for such a small tank of yours, I'd be thinking of something like these: http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/SpongeFilter.html or considering a small powerhead with a good sponge attached to the bottom just like Wasserpest's filter thread but on a smaller scale for the size of the tank. You could hide it behind some moss or decorations. I recommend this brand over some of the others as they use a better PPI foam.

Back to you, Hoppy. What do you mean by: "It is doing ok, but not spectacularly so." What have you noticed so far? You are already introducing fish, so I haven't had the pleasure of seeing it work. 

On a side note, I just realized I put my foam in backward. The tubing is supposed to be pointing on the back half. Right now, it shoots the water to the front. OOPS. Also, moss has decided to attach itself to the HMF whether I like it or not. And in case I didn't mention it, I determine my co2 in two fold. I use a set dkh made out of baking soda and distilled water. Then, I use it in a drop checker. Second, I am using a ph meter. So far, I haven't cranked up the co2, but I am thinking of trying that for a while to see how the plants do in comparison. I am fertilizing at an incredibly high rate for the fun of it.


----------



## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> Back to you, Hoppy. What do you mean by: "It is doing ok, but not spectacularly so." What have you noticed so far? You are already introducing fish, so I haven't had the pleasure of seeing it work.
> 
> On a side note, I just realized I put my foam in backward. The tubing is supposed to be pointing on the back half. Right now, it shoots the water to the front. OOPS. Also, moss has decided to attach itself to the HMF whether I like it or not. And in case I didn't mention it, I determine my co2 in two fold. I use a set dkh made out of baking soda and distilled water. Then, I use it in a drop checker. Second, I am using a ph meter. So far, I haven't cranked up the co2, but I am thinking of trying that for a while to see how the plants do in comparison. I am fertilizing at an incredibly high rate for the fun of it.


I have had a series of small problems: first, the water was very cloudy for quite some time. I think that was because of the mattenfilter being up on a support, so that water could filter through the substrate in under the foam, but the substrate is semi-mineralized topsoil, with Black Diamond blasting grit on top. The topsoil is likely what caused the cloudiness. After a week I added a lot of pool filter sand inside the mattenfilter up to just beyond the bottom of the foam, hoping to filter out what was clouding the water. Either it worked, or the cloudy water cleared up for other reasons.

Next, I bought a bunch of stem plants on the S n S forum, some of which arrived in terrible shape. I had all of the A. reineckii melt away, and some of the others survived after a long period where they looked like they would melt completely too. The plants that did very well were the Hydrothrix, from another S n S seller, and the Crypts from a LFS.

Then, the heater I used failed to work, so the water stayed at 70F for a week or more, until I bought a new heater, and now even with a 300 watt heater on a 65 gallon tank, the water temp doesn't seem to want to exceed 73F.

So, I added 4 Platys, having asked for 5 at the LFS, but was sold only 4 for some reason. They were very passive, disinterested, staying in one spot for long periods of time. So, realizing that they prefer somewhat hard water and I have very soft water, I added 1 dGH of Equilibrium to the tank. 

And, my moss in the foam attracted lots of algae in the top portions, so I just removed and tossed those.

But, with all of that, the tank looks great now, the fish are typically active now, and most of the plants are actively growing. I'm not disappointed, just not ebullient. (I do believe this is the first time in my life I have used that word:smile

The only problems attributable to the mattenfilter are:
the cloudy water - maybe;
the heater malfunction, in that it is very hard to see with it hidden inside the filter;
the algae on the moss, because it is on the filter foam.


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## driftwoodhunter

Well, I'm cooking breakfast before work, so I'll have to be brief! 
A question and a comment;
The question; what difference does it make which direction the tubing points to?I was thinking about angling my tubing towards the top slightly - just enough to break the water's surface tension - just like I did in one of my 29g tanks with the sponge/powerhead combo.

A comment about Hoppy's algae on the moss near the top of the foam - I wonder if in certain scenarios, algae is unavoidable? I made faux rock backgrounds for my 29g tanks, and on the upper surfaces that face the light (which is a twin bulb T5NO, resting directly on the tanks) I get algae growing on the faux rock. I don't mind it, but I wonder if the lights are too strong/close, if growth on the filter is inevitable? 
Ok, gotta grab that food before it burns!


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## Hoppy

I think it is very helpful to have a good circulation of water in the tank, with no stagnant areas. If the filter outlet points along the long dimension of the tank it helps set up a circular flow of water in the tank. I, too, like having the outlet pointed slightly up to ripple the surface, and mine is like that. I still get some surface film, but not as much as without that.

Since light intensity is greatest near the lights, any hardscape near the top of the tank will be in very high light, so algae have a great time there. With widely distributed LED lights, like I'm using, the intensity near the top isn't nearly as high as with a T5HO light, but it is still higher than at the middle of the tank. Moss growing near the top seems like an irresistible attraction to algae, but I didn't consider that when I "planted" moss near the top of the filter foam.


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## driftwoodhunter

I'm envious of your led lights - that's something I just can't wrap my light-constructing deficient brain around...lol. How you folks build those things is beyond me.


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## Hoppy

driftwoodhunter said:


> I'm envious of your led lights - that's something I just can't wrap my light-constructing deficient brain around...lol. How you folks build those things is beyond me.


This one was pretty easy to make or to duplicate: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/123797-diy-led-light-45-gallon-tank.html I now have it sitting on top of my 65 gallon tank, instead of suspended above the 45 gallon tank, which I sold.


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## driftwoodhunter

Funny guy! lol You lost me as soon as you typed the word "heatsink"...


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## sewingalot

Yeah platties aren't generally passive, they are very interactive fish. They like harder waters 10 to 20 dGH is what most places recommend. They are perfect for my area water. You have that liquid snow aka magical water, don't you?

Do you think the heater being behind the wall could have affected the functioning and even caused it to malfunction? I have yet to plug mine in as I still haven't gotten a thermometer.

You are probably right about the topsoil causing the cloudiness. I haven't seen any in mine since start up and I'm not using soil in this tank. I don't know if I mentioned I am using part turface and part Red Sea florabase? I've had great results with both media and love it.

So, my running the low co2, 65 watt pc and high fertilizers is catching up to me. Right now, I am getting a huge algae outbreak, but I am pleased. The diatoms are taking over everything and it's a pretty orangish bubbling hue at mid cycle. To me it shows the tank is coming along nicely and is healthy enough to carry such a large population of life, albeit unsightly to many.

@driftwoodhunter - lol on the heatsink. I haven't read enough that I am right there with you on the lost part. Hoppy pretty much explained the reasoning on the placement of the pipe. Right now the pump is pointed at the front glass, so it doesn't travel very far before it hits a hard surface. At that point, most of it is directed to the right of the tank and very little is being moved in a circular pattern on the left side. So I have great flow in about 3 square inches and horrible flow in the majority of the tank. At the far left corners, you can't even feel water movement. Pretty big flaw. On the plus side, the surface movement is pretty aggressive as the water is hitting the side of the glass and traveling upward creating waves. I am debating on whether or not to drain the tank and fixing it before too much time passes as the foam is already developing a memory of the shape.


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## jccaclimber

^Without sufficient flow a heater behind one of these will think the tank is smaller/warmer than it really is, but that shouldn't damage the heater.
The foam does develop a memory, but if you leave it out flat for a day or two it will forget (or rather learn its new position).


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## Hoppy

I do have liquid snow for water! It is from the American River, which drains snow melt, as well as rainfall in the winter, from the Sierra Nevada as well as the hilly areas next to the mountains. All of which is soft. As I recall it is around 1 dKH, but I never measure GH anymore. The Platys are doing fine now, I won't try Mollies because of the soft water.

Water stays behind the foam for a very short time, because of the Koralia type powerhead I use. I wouldn't expect that to affect the heater, and the water back there feels like the same temperature as in the rest of the tank. But, It could be affecting the convection flow of water around the heater, letting it get hotter than it should, thus "fooling" the thermostat in it. I'm leaving it alone for now.


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## jccaclimber

^In my 20L tanks the water is 1-2 degrees warmer behind the foam than in front of it, depending on my water level (air driven lift tubes). In my 75 (pump) It's exactly the same all around.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Ok, I admit I should take the time to reread all seven pages of this thread before I ask my questions - but I'm tired & lazy today. I don't think I can keep my eyes open that long! lol
So here's my question...(and I promise I will reread those pages). Soon I will start to set up my 125. Hopefully in April. Gives me lots of time to plot and plan...
I have a powerhead and sponge in one of my 29s - I did it as an experiment when I got fed up with the noise my hob filter was making. wkndracer was my inspiration! Turns out I love it. Silent, nearly invisible, and it allows me to place the tank much closer to the wall. That's why I'm so interested in the HMF system. 
I know I will come up with dozens of hardscape ideas before I settle on one, but this is the idea du jour; some of you may know I like to make 3D faux rock backgrounds. This tank will have one too, if I have to set it up against a wall. I am wondering if I can set up two filter stations at opposite ends of the tank - each would have it's own poret wall, heater, and powerhead. I was thinking about building a full size faux rock back wall, and two side walls that are about 9" in from the ends of the tank. These two side walls make false "ends" of the tank so I can make corner filters out of the poret. I don't want to actually attach the HMF to the ends of the tank, because the ends will be seen from two different rooms and I don't want to be looking at the back of the filter. The freestanding faux ends would be hooked to hold one end of the poret, the other end would be anchored by the back wall (the faux rock walls acting just like the acrylic strips some have used). The approx. 9" space between the faux ends and the actual side glass would be planted or have rocks for eye appeal. I realize this would be a stagnant area - I'm hoping a little water movement will still occur there if the faux walls don't go to the top of the tank, then some current may go over the top of them as well as in front.
So, if I have two HMFs set up, I will end up with cross currents - if I have one powerhead output in the upper third of the poret, the opposite HMF's output in the lower third of it's poret, wouldn't this give me some measure of a circular current? I'd like to avoid an additional Koralia-type powerhead for pushing water if I can.
I don't know how to do those fancy computer drawings, so here's a crappy doodle looking down into the tank from above! lol
The tank is 18" x 72". The faux background and side walls are drawn, as are two sets of HMFs. I'm going to have two pieces of driftwood in the tank, they're indicated too.
What do you think - doable?


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## Hoppy

Yes, it is doable. You know, of course, that the Poret foam has to extend above the water a bit, so water can't pour over the foam? I can see that it would be possible to put a foam cap on the filter area, and avoid extending the foam so high.


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## driftwoodhunter

lol - I never thought about the water going over the foam - doofus!
I like your idea of a poret cap - but it wouldn't be unsightly to me for the poret to extend to the top of the tank, it would draw less attention to itself that way. Mostly I am trying to come up with a way to have two heaters (in case of a fail) and two filters so only one has to be removed at any time for maintenance, and to get that circulation going without adding a Koralia or other pump.
Thanks Hoppy!


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## jccaclimber

If you press in a Poret cap you can plant it, then just pull it out as needed.


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## driftwoodhunter

oh, that's good! It would be a tiered landscape - I completely forgot about cutting slices into the Poret to insert plants.
Thanks! I'm glad other people's thinking caps are on! Mine's at the cleaners...


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## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> oh, that's good! It would be a tiered landscape - I completely forgot about cutting slices into the Poret to insert plants.
> Thanks! I'm glad other people's thinking caps are on! Mine's at the cleaners...


If you are worried about seeing the filters, what about making them in the center of the back wall facing out. You could still have 2 separate ones, but then you could extend the back wall all the way to the ends of the tank and not have to worry about that small area being a dead zone.


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## sewingalot

Driftwood, forgive me for ignoring your questions. I do love your setup idea, but I feel that Hoppy and JC really gave you excellent responses and I would only add "ditto." 

Jc (forgive the lazy abbreviation), how are the shrimp? 

Just a quick update. I am sort of taking HX67's advice and removed about 99.9% of the clado for the time being. I really want to let the bacteria have a great chance to establish itself. The algae/diatom outbreak is receding quicker than I anticipated and the tank is finally cycled. Having a little issue that was unexpected with the window even with the blinds drawn is shining on the tank. I am combating this with a short duration on the PC fixture. I added 5 yellow shrimp to test the waters. So far no spikes. Also, I unhooked the co2 for a while until I clean the diffuser and to give the shrimp a chance to adjust to the tank without co2 as I was running at a much higher rate than I do in the 55.

Nothing to really look at, but an update nonetheless for those wanting to know how it is going. This is a part journal after all. Nevermind the leggy downoi. It came from a lower lit tank and will adjust soon enough.


----------



## jccaclimber

Sadly something happened (still not sure what, everything else was fine) while I was out of town for several days. The shrimp in the breeder in the 75 vanished (CO2 maybe?). No bodies, nothing. The ones in the 10g did much the same, but a juvie female and what I think are a couple males made it through and now have that entire tank to themselves. Given that the SO didn't feed and there were no visitors I'm really pretty confused about it. I did note that I had my water level a bit high (less surface movement) in the 75, but that doesn't explain the 10g. On the other hand, my cherry population (HMF in a 20 long) is breeding, so I will continues the shrimp experiments on them, or the yellows if the few surviving ones recover.
Seeing as I don't offer up my name in here I'm pretty used to answering to JC.


----------



## Hoppy

jccaclimber said:


> Sadly something happened (still not sure what, everything else was fine) while I was out of town for several days. The shrimp in the breeder in the 75 vanished (CO2 maybe?). No bodies, nothing. The ones in the 10g did much the same, but a juvie female and what I think are a couple males made it through and now have that entire tank to themselves. Given that the SO didn't feed and there were no visitors I'm really pretty confused about it. I did note that I had my water level a bit high (less surface movement) in the 75, but that doesn't explain the 10g. On the other hand, my cherry population (HMF in a 20 long) is breeding, so I will continues the shrimp experiments on them, or the yellows if the few surviving ones recover.
> Seeing as I don't offer up my name in here I'm pretty used to answering to JC.


Did the CO2 tank run out while you were away? If so, and if you have a Milwaukee regulator, you might have gassed the shrimp. I lost all of my red cherry shrimp a couple of years ago when that happened to me. It's weird how they literally vanished in thin air (water?).


----------



## jccaclimber

I do have a Milwaukee regulator, but I have a low pressure regulator between the Milwaukee and solenoid that does hold a constant pressure. The CO2 tank did not run empty. That also doesn't explain the same issue in the low tech 10 gallon.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

cableguy69846 said:


> If you are worried about seeing the filters, what about making them in the center of the back wall facing out. You could still have 2 separate ones, but then you could extend the back wall all the way to the ends of the tank and not have to worry about that small area being a dead zone.


I'm not worried about seeing the filters - but I like your idea of having two sets centered & facing outward, I'm already sketching that out! As long as I get circulation throughout the tank without an added Koralia/powerhead.
Well, I'm off to make dinner...I'll be thinking about the tank as I do!


----------



## jccaclimber

I've never done it, but one of the things I sketched out was curving them the other way (in rather than out) and putting them in the corners (with a small gap behind them). It would also round off the corners of your 'scape.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

It just dawned on me that cable was referring to how I didn't want to see the filters from the side glass - I thought he meant see them in general - my bad!
Do you suppose if the outflows pointed from near the back center of the tank towards the side glass (like towards the front 1/3 of the side glass) the water flow would rebound off the side glass and give me decent flow? I have a long flexible bubble wand that I could bury in the gravel along the back wall to break the surface a little, since I probably wouldn't angle the outflow up. I think to angle it up would leave little-to-no water movement to speak of in a 22" deep tank. Of course by the time I get the substrate in it will be less than 22".


----------



## jccaclimber

Maybe. Two outflows might work too.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

I meant with two outflows - here's another (even worse!) doodle;










I'm thinking two filter stations separated by a narrow space I could put rocks and plants in. I like the idea of having a gap so the heaters can be more efficient at getting a more uniform temp in reaches of the tank. If I want a greater distance between the two filter stations, I don't see why I couldn't make the back part (facing the center of the tank) of the wall-like projections cut out and insert Poret there, too. As long as I have one outflow per station, I don't see that Poret back and front hurts anything. That way I have circulation through the front curved Poret and the back part that faces the center of the tank = no dead spots.
The wavy arrows are the proposed directions of the outflows.
There are the same walls and wall-like projections of the faux rock.


----------



## Daximus

Could you do a half moon somehow? I fear with the above drawing you are going to collect debris behind the plant in the middle. My design would also collect debris, theoretically, but it should collect right in the front middle of the tank. Easier to siphon out, maybe? 

I figure you're tallest plants would be in back, so some beefy powerheads could blow threw that area, then become more gentle in the front. I don't know, just tossing another idea into the hat, lol.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

I wondered about debris collecting there,too. I was thinking about making the inner void a solid tower of faux rock, but what a waste of space that would be. The half moon design would be very easy, I didn't know if it would be a problem to have two heaters so close to one another (I guess they would be a max of about 16" apart, based on what I just measured). Can the heat of two close heaters build up there, or would the circulation from the powerheads disperse the heated water and get it to the ends of the tank? I've never had a tank this big before and I don't know how the rules change - lol.

PS - I like your fancy-schmancy computer drawing!


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## driftwoodhunter

Speaking of siphoning - I now know I'll have to stand on a step stool to siphon, plant, etc. I had to stand on a rickety old milking stool to clean out the tank the other day...so a short step stool is also on the shopping list.
And what size powerheads to you folks think I should consider?


----------



## Daximus

driftwoodhunter said:


> I wondered about debris collecting there,too. I was thinking about making the inner void a solid tower of faux rock, but what a waste of space that would be. The half moon design would be very easy, I didn't know if it would be a problem to have two heaters so close to one another (I guess they would be a max of about 16" apart, based on what I just measured). Can the heat of two close heaters build up there, or would the circulation from the powerheads disperse the heated water and get it to the ends of the tank? I've never had a tank this big before and I don't know how the rules change - lol.
> 
> PS - I like your fancy-schmancy computer drawing!


Well, I've never built one of these, so this is all opinion. But, I have two 50 watt heaters sitting almost side by side in a HOB filter on my 29. Haven't had an issue yet. What actually happens is only one really does any work, until I do a water change (cold) and then they both kick on to play catch up.

Your powerheads are moving how much water? The cheap ones from Wal-Mart move 170 GPH. (170*2= 340gph /60 = 5.666gpm) So roughly a pair of them are moving 5.6 gallon per minute through your filter area...I don't think the heaters are going to have any chance of overheating that much water in a minute. 

I was merely looking at optimum flow and aesthetics...I think a half moon will be way more visually palatable then a split design. Ultimately you want the filter to fade into the back ground...personally I think a half moon would attract less attention. :fish:

PS: I like your drawing too, lol.




driftwoodhunter said:


> Speaking of siphoning - I now know I'll have to stand on a step stool to siphon, plant, etc. I had to stand on a rickety old milking stool to clean out the tank the other day...so a short step stool is also on the shopping list.
> And what size powerheads to you folks think I should consider?


I get wet any time I play with the 90...beach towels are your friend. As for the size of the powerheads I have no idea. I know that Hoppy and sewingalot have done a ton of math on that...I'll let them address this as I think it's crucial to the design of this filter to get that right.


----------



## jccaclimber

^I generally put a rubber sheet (like the things you stick on the mattress for little kids) in front of my tank and keep a towel on hand playing in my 75.

What surface area are you planning for your filter? Rough flow can be calculated from that.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Daximus said:


> I get wet any time I play with the 90...beach towels are your friend. As for the size of the powerheads I have no idea. I know that Hoppy and sewingalot have done a ton of math on that...I'll let them address this as I think it's crucial to the design of this filter to get that right.


Yeah, I always forget to lay down towels when I do water changes - and I'm messy!
I'm off from work the next two days and I'm going to start at the beginning of this thread again - there's a lot of info to digest. The balance of Poret width, Poret panel size, water volume/tank dimensions and flow rate still confuse me...


----------



## driftwoodhunter

jccaclimber said:


> ^
> 
> What surface area are you planning for your filter? Rough flow can be calculated from that.


That's totally up in the air - I haven't thought this out that far yet. The tank is 22" deep, but that's without substrate, and I don't know how deep I'm going with that yet. Also, I'm going to build a berm, as it were, to keep the bottom of the Poret above the substrate - like a little stone wall retaining a garden bed - lol. The Poret will be curved in a semi circle, but how large the pieces will be I haven't delved into yet. I only picked up the tank last week so I'm still a bit overwhelmed by it.


----------



## Hoppy

I'm using near the maximum flow rate that it is said that mattenfilters can be used with, but sewingalot is using closer to the optimum flow rate. I don't think it is that critical for a planted tank since the bio filtering part is less critical and that is what the flow rate is based on.


----------



## deeda

I'm really enjoying all the discussions on using the Poret foam in the HMF design so please don't misconstrue my next couple comments. 

I've been using the HMF's in six 30G tanks for almost 2 yrs come June 2012. I am using the air lift design with PVC pipes and get great flow through the 20 PPI Poret foam. The filters trap a large amount of fine dirt and debris but the tanks do need to be vacuumed regularly to get the large stuff.

It is a real mess when it's time to clean the HMF though. I've lowered the tank water level to more than 50% to aid in getting the Poret out of the tank. But there is still a large amount of debris that is redeposited into the aquarium when removing the Poret. The remaining tank water is very dirty until the filter has been cleaned & replaced plus I will temporarily install a power or canister filter to speed up the water clearing. Also, a substrate surface vacuum is usually called for to get all the debris released from the filter removal.

This might be an issue for any fish or other inhabitants left in the tank during the HMF cleaning procedure. It is also sometimes difficult to replace the HMF without trapping any inhabitants behind it, so please check for missing critters.

So to wrap up my experience with Poret HMF's.
I love the way they work and look in my tanks and will be using them on additional tanks I set up. 
What I dislike is the cleaning of the filter in a *set up aquarium with inhabitants* AND the not so efficient mechanical filtration as compared to a power or canister filter (which is not really a fair comparison).

I hope these comments don't dissuade anyone from using the HMF design but will help you to make an informed decision based on HOW you want to filter your aquarium that takes into account the future stocking level of fish, decorations and plantings you choose and any disruptions you have during the cleaning of the HMF.

Any comments from other long term HMF user experiences regarding my findings are more than welcome and I'm sure they would be helpful to new users of the HMF's.

Hope this helps anyone considering this method of filtration.


----------



## Hoppy

I very rarely keep a planted tank set up as is for as long as 2 years, so if the filter can go without being removed for that long, and I think it can, then it suits my needs very well. I know many people tear down and re-do their tanks every year or two. It would be a royal pain to have to remove that Poret foam and clean it and reinstall it any more often.

If I wanted to keep a stable tank, same aquascape, same setup for longer than 2 years I don't think I would use anything but a canister filter. And, for a high light tank I suspect that a canister filter might be more appropriate. I still have a lot to learn about it though. Then there is always a sump as an alternative way to filter, and not have to disturb the tank for cleaning.


----------



## Chlorophile

Hamburger!


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## jccaclimber

deeda said:


> I'm really enjoying all the discussions on using the Poret foam in the HMF design so please don't misconstrue my next couple comments.
> 
> I've been using the HMF's in six 30G tanks for almost 2 yrs come June 2012. I am using the air lift design with PVC pipes and get great flow through the 20 PPI Poret foam. The filters trap a large amount of fine dirt and debris but the tanks do need to be vacuumed regularly to get the large stuff.
> 
> It is a real mess when it's time to clean the HMF though. I've lowered the tank water level to more than 50% to aid in getting the Poret out of the tank. But there is still a large amount of debris that is redeposited into the aquarium when removing the Poret. The remaining tank water is very dirty until the filter has been cleaned & replaced plus I will temporarily install a power or canister filter to speed up the water clearing. Also, a substrate surface vacuum is usually called for to get all the debris released from the filter removal.
> 
> This might be an issue for any fish or other inhabitants left in the tank during the HMF cleaning procedure. It is also sometimes difficult to replace the HMF without trapping any inhabitants behind it, so please check for missing critters.
> 
> So to wrap up my experience with Poret HMF's.
> I love the way they work and look in my tanks and will be using them on additional tanks I set up.
> What I dislike is the cleaning of the filter in a *set up aquarium with inhabitants* AND the not so efficient mechanical filtration as compared to a power or canister filter (which is not really a fair comparison).
> 
> I hope these comments don't dissuade anyone from using the HMF design but will help you to make an informed decision based on HOW you want to filter your aquarium that takes into account the future stocking level of fish, decorations and plantings you choose and any disruptions you have during the cleaning of the HMF.
> 
> Any comments from other long term HMF user experiences regarding my findings are more than welcome and I'm sure they would be helpful to new users of the HMF's.
> 
> Hope this helps anyone considering this method of filtration.


I haven't come to removing mine yet, but I am concerned about those issues. Do you think either of the following would work?

1) Suck it out with a narrow siphon, in place. I'm not sure how deeply this will clean.
2) place a plastic garbage bag in the tank, slide it around the filter, then remove it. This doesn't cover the install, but may keep things from being as much of a mess taking it out.


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks for the information deeda! Why did you choose to remove the foam? Was it for cosmetic reasons? Most of the people I've spoken to that use this filtration haven't removed it for cleaning ever (some over decades) and it's really not necessarily a good idea for the bacteria. This filter is supposed to be like fine wine, gets better with age. From what I read, this is kind of like taking your fish out of a tank and completely cleaning the rocks and glass before returning the fish back to the tank. It often resets the nitrogen cycle in a negative manner. I am curious if you noticed any spikes in the cycle after a good cleaning. I have noticed they do get gunky with plant debris if you don't pick it off on cleaning day.



Hoppy said:


> I'm using near the maximum flow rate that it is said that mattenfilters can be used with, but sewingalot is using closer to the optimum flow rate. I don't think it is that critical for a planted tank since the bio filtering part is less critical and that is what the flow rate is based on.


I think the most important thing is to have enough flow as in not too little to cause anaerobic conditions. The slower the flow, the better it is for healthy bacteria colonization. But as Hoppy sad, in a planted tank, you have the benefit of it's natural filtering ability. I used the original method of 1 to 2 gph turnover. But I will say the flow in the tank is much less than I'd prefer at this low rate.



Chlorophile said:


> Hamburger!


This is so named because both the filter and food originated from Hamburg, Germany. The word "burg" stands for fortified settlement/refuge which is cool if you think of the way this filtration is mounted. Many say it is just Hamburg Mattenfilter, but Hamburger is also acceptable.


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## driftwoodhunter

sewingalot said:


> Thanks for the information deeda! Why did you choose to remove the foam? Was it for cosmetic reasons? Most of the people I've spoken to that use this filtration haven't removed it for cleaning ever (some over decades) and it's really not necessarily a good idea for the bacteria. This filter is supposed to be like fine wine, gets better with age. From what I read, this is kind of like taking your fish out of a tank and completely cleaning the rocks and glass before returning the fish back to the tank. It often resets the nitrogen cycle in a negative manner. I am curious if you noticed any spikes in the cycle after a good cleaning. I have noticed they do get gunky with plant debris if you don't pick it off on cleaning day.


Thanks for addressing this, sewingalot - I have been wondering why so many people are bringing up removing the filter and cleaning it, especially so frequently. Perhaps it has to do with the level of stocking, but one of the many appealing things about a HMF to me is the in-tank siphoning of the foam.


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## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> Thanks for addressing this, sewingalot - I have been wondering why so many people are bringing up removing the filter and cleaning it, especially so frequently. Perhaps it has to do with the level of stocking, but one of the many appealing things about a HMF to me is the in-tank siphoning of the foam.


Sorry for being late to the party again, work and kids. You know how it is.:hihi:

I was going to suggest the half moon idea that was mentioned before too. You could still divide up the area, just do away with the space in between the filter areas. In essence, that area would look like a "T" with the foam extending from the top to the center on either side. I am not so sure this makes a bunch of sense, maybe someone can draw it up for you. Or, if it does make sense, let me know.:hihi:


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## driftwoodhunter

yes cable, it makes sense! lol Speaking of kids, how's the baby?

I've finally started reading the thread again, and I finished reading the link to Hoppy's thread on whether or not a HMF is feasible. One of the points I forgot about is how biological filtration is accomplished by the beneficial bacteria on the plants, rock (faux & real) surfaces, etc. So in a lightly stocked tank, the foam size doesn't have to be as large as I was thinking. If I am correct, this is as much about trapping free floating particles and moving water as biological filtration. Yes, no?


----------



## Daximus

driftwoodhunter said:


> One of the points I forgot about is how biological filtration is accomplished by the beneficial bacteria on the plants, rock (faux & real) surfaces, etc. So in a lightly stocked tank, the foam size doesn't have to be as large as I was thinking. If I am correct, this is as much about trapping free floating particles and moving water as biological filtration. Yes, no?


Yea, in a planted tank I don't thing you can really screw up the size as you're not solely dependent on the foam for you biological filtration. I think back to wknracer's 55 gallon running off a single sponge on a powerhead as a prime example. 

Anyways, down the road if you feel you are lacking something, what's to stop you from tossing some bio balls, ceramic rings, or pot scrubbers back behind the filter?


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Good point, and an excellent tip!
I already posted in Hoppy's thread that I have thought about putting quilter's polyfil in behind it for extra polish - I have tons of it. I put a powerhead and sponge in a 29g based on wkndracer's results and I couldn't be happier. The water is crystal clear (some tannin tint, but no floating particles, and I like tannins in a tank) so I'm eager to do the same with this new tank.


----------



## sewingalot

driftwoodhunter said:


> Thanks for addressing this, sewingalot - I have been wondering why so many people are bringing up removing the filter and cleaning it, especially so frequently. Perhaps it has to do with the level of stocking, but one of the many appealing things about a HMF to me is the in-tank siphoning of the foam.


Not having one myself for that long, I can't say that I won't think it needs scrubbing in a few years, but my ultimate goal for this tank was to set up the filtration and forget it. I really think the cleaning comes down to the individual tank and sometimes the individual. I can see plant debris having a factor, but at the same time, I think siphoning could combat this issue. But with lack of long term experience, I can't say. I do know that if I ever decide to take it out and clean out the filter, just from reading deeda's description, that'll be the end of my HMF. Ewww. Just cleaning a sponge out of a HOB makes me more than green. :confused1: 



driftwoodhunter said:


> yes cable, it makes sense! lol Speaking of kids, how's the baby?
> 
> I've finally started reading the thread again, and I finished reading the link to Hoppy's thread on whether or not a HMF is feasible. One of the points I forgot about is how biological filtration is accomplished by the beneficial bacteria on the plants, rock (faux & real) surfaces, etc. So in a lightly stocked tank, the foam size doesn't have to be as large as I was thinking. If I am correct, this is as much about trapping free floating particles and moving water as biological filtration. Yes, no?


Hey, congrats, Cable! I didn't realize your gal had her little one. I bet you are exhausted with the demands of the little one. 

Driftwoodhunter - honestly, in your tank you could get by with just one of the two in your drawings. What is going to be a challenge for you is flow and the two walls could indeed help with that as you are getting some on both sides. Having the rock wall, you can easily hide powerheads as well. I always refer back to HX67's posts as he did a fabulous job setting up this filtration method.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Driftwoodhunter - honestly, in your tank you could get by with just one of the two in your drawings. What is going to be a challenge for you is flow and the two walls could indeed help with that as you are getting some on both sides. Having the rock wall, you can easily hide powerheads as well. I always refer back to HX67's posts as he did a fabulous job setting up this filtration method.

yes, that's a beautiful setup! It gave me the idea to partially cover the Poret with the faux background to break up it's look (like camouflage) where it would be most visible. He did, and it still seems to work wonderfully.
I had been thinking along the lines of needing the two filter stations for biological filtration - totally losing sight of the plant, rock, etc, surfaces. I'm now working out ideas where the shape and angles of the faux rock background direct the flow from the powerheads. Not just a flat background, but with channels and angles to manipulate the flow towards corners, etc. I did something slightly similar with the 29s, where I sloped the base of the backgrounds to help mulm & debris flow towards the front of the tank for easier siphoning. It helped, too.
First I'll have to decide where the driftwood is going so I can visually place the foam/powerheads, then I can design the channels & angles in the background to avoid dead spots blocked by the driftwood. Sounds like a fun project to me!


----------



## sewingalot

I have a strong feeling you are going to put me to shame with your project.  I am quite excited to see it develop and can't wait for pictures on your build. Sounds like you have some great starting points. And you have the advantage of creativity on your side.


----------



## driftwoodhunter

That's very kind of you, but I have zero technical abilities. If it wasn't for these threads and everyone else's info, I'd end up with a 125g clown puke tank, and be proud of it! 
I have to tell you, I'm one of those that takes forever to get a project off the ground and stick with it! So stay tuned, but don't hold your breath lol
This time I'm going to try much harder to make my faux rocks look better - the last batch weren't all that realistic. Once this background's in, it's staying, so I'm going to cruise around and take a bunch of photos to refer to. Silly, really, because the driftwood and the plants will cover most of it, but _I'll_ know!


----------



## deeda

Wow, I missed a lot of responses since I posted my experiences so I'll try and catch up. Let me know if I missed any questions.

I have only cleaned 2 of the HMF's out of the 6 tanks they are installed in and that is probably due to the frequent spawning of the fish in those tanks and the larger bio-load that results.

The best way to determine if the HMF is in need of major cleaning is when the water level behind the HMF is significantly lower than the front of the HMF. In my case, that difference was about 1 inch.

I do siphon the front of the HMF to remove large debris using a 1/2" diameter piece of hose and that will help to also remove any fine debris trapped in the HMF. There is usually a minimal amount of mulm on the floor of the cavity behind the HMF.

I don't think you can get a real deep cleaning of the HMF by vacuuming the surface from the front of the sponge. In my setup, the HMF is the corner style and access to the rear of the sponge is difficult because of clearance issues with the spacing of the tanks on a rack.

I also don't think the trash bag idea would work because my HMF's have to be slid out from the 2 side vertical retaining glass strips toward the front of the tank in order to remove them. My HMF's are 9.5"W x 14.5"H x 2" thick and are actually quite heavy when wet. Once you start removing them from the water, all the fine debris starts to 'fall' out of the Poret.

Hoppy brings up a valid point. If you do a major tank re-scape every couple years, the HMF cleaning would not be a major issue. How quickly the filter becomes clogged up and needs cleaning really depends on how much water actually passes through the foam. A higher flow and a larger fish population would clog the filter faster, just as it would in any filter.

Sewingalot, I did not notice any spike in Ammonia, NitrIte or NitrAte after cleaning the HMF. Not even a mini cycle, probably because I have rocks in the tank that are located in the outflow path of the airlift. I only cleaned the HMF, not the rear/side tank panels of the glass or substrate at this time.

BTW, the best way to clean a HMF is to use a strong spray of water with a garden hose nozzle or kitchen sprayer and to knock it against a flat surface to dislodge particles. I'm lucky because I have well water with no chlorine injection and I installed a kitchen spray/hose on my laundry tub in the basement so it's easy to clean the HMF. 
I don't know if anyone cleaning a HMF with city provided water has had any issues with mini cycles afterward due to chlorine/chloramine in their water supply.

It is *not* recommended to squeeze, twist or excessively compress the Poret during cleaning as this will eventually break down the structure of the foam and leave it limp. I'm sure this wouldn't happen if you squeezed it a few times but over the years it may if you do frequent cleanings.

Any questions I missed?


----------



## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> yes cable, it makes sense! lol Speaking of kids, how's the baby?
> 
> I've finally started reading the thread again, and I finished reading the link to Hoppy's thread on whether or not a HMF is feasible. One of the points I forgot about is how biological filtration is accomplished by the beneficial bacteria on the plants, rock (faux & real) surfaces, etc. So in a lightly stocked tank, the foam size doesn't have to be as large as I was thinking. If I am correct, this is as much about trapping free floating particles and moving water as biological filtration. Yes, no?


Pretty good. If you want to hunt through my thread, I have a few pics of them in there toward the end.


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## driftwoodhunter

lol - the thread with a gazllion pages??? I wonder if it's a record - the thread with the most pages ; )


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Oh God, I can't get past page two. sewingalot's and Hoppy's calculations give me migraines!

I'm going to keep reading because I'm a masochist, but in the end I will be asking for someone else to calculate the size Poret I'll have to buy. Just warning you.
:iamwithst:icon_roll


Ooh! Light at the end of the tunnel! Page 3 holds this gem by jccaclimber; For those not interested in doing the math, get a chunk of foam the size of the small end of your tank, and a pump that moves 1.5-3 tanks per hour. Is this size still required if it's a corner unit? 

Please tell me page 4 doesn't debunk this...

Ok, I finally got through all 8 pages. I must be getting senile because I brought up some of the same issues more than once ; ) Now I have a pretty good grasp of it...


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## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> lol - the thread with a gazllion pages??? I wonder if it's a record - the thread with the most pages ; )


Are you talking about my thread?


----------



## driftwoodhunter

Yes! lol I think it must be in the running at least...


----------



## sewingalot

Thank you for the wealth of information, deeda. I am now seeing what you mean. I don't know if it's plant matter, algae or both but even with siphoning, I find myself yearning for a type of squeegee for the foam. It's getting more than a little icky looking. 



driftwoodhunter said:


> Oh God, I can't get past page two. sewingalot's and Hoppy's calculations give me migraines!
> 
> I'm going to keep reading because I'm a masochist, but in the end I will be asking for someone else to calculate the size Poret I'll have to buy. Just warning you.
> :iamwithst:icon_roll
> 
> 
> Ooh! Light at the end of the tunnel! Page 3 holds this gem by jccaclimber; For those not interested in doing the math, get a chunk of foam the size of the small end of your tank, and a pump that moves 1.5-3 tanks per hour. Is this size still required if it's a corner unit?
> 
> Please tell me page 4 doesn't debunk this...
> 
> Ok, I finally got through all 8 pages. I must be getting senile because I brought up some of the same issues more than once ; ) Now I have a pretty good grasp of it...



The only issue is with this way of calculating is you could potentially have not enough flow and end up creating a nitrate anaerobic monster filter. 

This was the best way I followed it was to go through the painstaking calculations: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1614885-post64.html If you do go Jc's way, I'd error on the side of caution and go for a range between 2 - 4 turnover per hour and not go lower than 2.

Here is an update on my tank. The algae got pretty bad for a while:


















Microscopic pictures proved it to be mostly cyanobacteria and diatoms. Knowing that the diatoms are normal for a new batch of turface and just needed to run it's course, I decided to ignore them and attack the cyano head on. I upped the oxygen at night running an airstone, and didn't fertilize or run the co2 for a while. There was a steady crescendo of BGA strings, sheets and smudges everywhere. On top of this, the diatoms grew on top of each other and then pay dirt! The diatoms and cyano started to crash, unable to maintain the population in such a small tank:










So, this is when I hit it hard. I scraped the walls, wound the cyano strands on bamboo and did a major water change. I left just enough in there to not upset the tank too much as the bacteria is still quite new. So here I am with this:









Still some algae present, but looking much better:




































The emersed growth is what took a hit, you can see it rotting away on the mermaid weed:









Some of the other plants are meh, but they'll improve soon enough now that they aren't in a shroud of algae. I turned back on the co2, am dosing major amounts of nutrients and now it's going to become the defining moment stage. Will I approve of the HMF after actually maintaining the tank? Time will tell.

OH! And I am having a major issue with detrius worms. They adore squiggling in and out of the filter and it grosses me out big time. Ew! I'm quite confused on this as I brought over almost all emersed plants and the ones that I got in from another member, I soaked overnight in PP. I am thinking "could they be in the water supply????" I hope not! I'm hoping that the PP dip is just plain ineffective for the little guys and I'm not drinking them on a daily basis. :icon_neut


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## driftwoodhunter

I had the guys out yesterday to check my flooring to support the 125, and the floor passed with flying colors. For my piece of mind, I'm having them add two more steel trusses under the mobile home where the tank will be. I was assured it's overkill after they assessed my floor, but I need it to sleep at night ; )
The best news was that my original plan to use the tank as a room divider between the living room and kitchen turns out to be the most stable/sound place to put it. Yea! This means it will be set up perpendicular to an exterior wall - and that means I can have the filtration at one end, and use a Koralia at the other end to push water back towards the filter and create the circular flow. I'm not going to use a flat sheet of Poret across the entire side glass, but I will have a corner filter. This eliminates all the hassle of figuring out dual filter stations. I'll still add another heater as a back up (probably - the heater that came with the tank is huge, I haven't checked the actual size yet but it was enough for the discus tank he had). I had concerns about siphoning and maintaining the Poret if it was at the back of the tank because I'm only 5' 4" tall, and standing on a step stool, reaching over a big tank wasn't my idea of fun. The end access will be a breeze.
Being able to set the Poret up on a side glass, and not have to worry about it being seen by company since it will be against a wall changes the whole design plan - in a good way.
Time to put the Thinking Cap back on...


----------



## deeda

Sewingalot, I have had similar problems with green sheet algae growing on one of my HMF's. I'm sure it was due to an imbalance in nutrients when I removed a large anubias and some floating plants. 

I found it easiest to vacuum/siphon the algae off the foam during multiple water changes.


----------



## deeda

driftwoodhunter said:


> ...Yea! This means it will be set up perpendicular to an exterior wall - and that means I can have the filtration at one end, and use a Koralia at the other end to push water back to wards the filter and create the circular flow. I'm not going to use a flat sheet of Poret across the entire side glass, but I will have a corner filter. This eliminates all the hassle of figuring out dual filter stations. The end access will be a breeze.
> Being able to set the Poret up on a side glass, and not have to worry about it being seen by company since it will be against a wall changes the whole design plan - in a good way.
> Time to put the Thinking Cap back on...


I'm glad you were able to work out the placement of the Poret but I don't think using it as a corner filter will be sufficient for a 125G tank because there won't be sufficient surface area available to support the tank.

I was playing with the formulas on Olaf's German site using google translate and plugged in the numbers for a 473L tank (125G) and for a 2 tank per hour circulation using a 250 GPH pump/powerhead, you will need a piece of Poret that is at least the height of your tank x the width of your tank. The number I got was 326 sq.in. which would be a piece of Poret approx. 20"H x 16.5"W. I wouldn't go any smaller than 326 sq.in. I'm assuming it is a standard 125G.

Just for clarification when I used Olaf's translated site, I converted from U.S. to metric measurements to use his online formulas and then converted back. Hopefully I didn't make any mistakes in my conversions.

The basic information I gleaned from both Olaf's site & Jan's English translation site (both on the 1st page of this thread) is that you need a minimum of double your aquarium's water volume to cycle through the HMF per hour and you don't want the velocity (flow rate) of the water through the Poret to exceed the maximum recommendations.

Also, if you check the swiss tropicals site, even though he doesn't specifically list a standard 125G tank for the precut foam, the closest precut HMF that fits is for a 75E gallon tank and that would be designed as an end of tank style HMF and uses 2 of his Jetlifter style airlifts. It would also be a 3" thick Poret rather than a 2" thick piece due to the span of the tank from front to back, probably due to being more rigid.

If you want to get a definite answer regarding what would work best for your tank design, I would email Stephan at swiss tropicals and *include the specifics of your tank setup*. I think this would eliminate a lot of the guess work and possibly the failure of an inadequately sized corner HMF. He is usually quick to respond, however, in a recent email from him, he is relocating from Ohio to Minnesota so I don't know if that will delay his response to your questions.

One other advantage to using the end of tank style HMF is that you can use black paint on the front of the tank glass to hide the foam edge and cavity behind the Poret. This works extremely well, especially if your tank has black trim. I've done this on my 125G tank to hide the intakes from my canister filters and it is barely noticeable.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks deeda for your help! I will email Stephan, it never occurred to me to seek their advice directly for a specific setup.
I see no reason why I can't take the required size piece of Poret that would span the side glass, and bend it slightly & create a corner filter? Of course the part attaching to the rear glass would be placed further in towards the center of the tank to accommodate the size of the foam sheet, but I would still have the same size sheet of Poret and therefore the same surface area for water to cycle through. I only need to leave about 1/3 to 1/4 of the front corner area for a plant or rock to help hide the foam & let it visually recede so it's not in-your-face obvious. For my aesthetics, painting the front of the glass (my tank has the ugly fake oak trim - but hey, the price was right) or seeing the edge of the foam and the equipment behind it isn't acceptable. If it came to that I'd rather use another form of filtration. 
Again, I really appreciate the trouble you went to, to plug in the numbers and help me determine the size Poret. I was thinking of shooting for 3x the water volume per hour based the length of the tank, the plantings, and the amount of driftwood that will be in the tank. The faux rock 3d background might create flow obstacles, too. (I'm hoping it will create flow paths once I design it!). I'm hoping to use 2" thick foam. Since I seem to be too clueless to figure out the correct foam size/water flow ratio, it would be best for me to email swisstropicals ; )


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## deeda

I think as long as you maintain the minimum required sq. in. of the Poret, you should be fine. I would consider using the corner style if you can maintain the proper radius of the foam without kinking or compressing it too much. I find the curved shape of the corner style to be pleasing to the eye. You'll just have to figure out the best placement before attaching the support brackets to the tank.

Also try to make the cavity large enough to allow your submersible heater to mount horizontally if possible. That is the only thing I regret on my smaller corner style HMF's, having to remember to disconnect the heater prior to a water change & then remember to plug them back in.

I also installed the outflow pipe on my HMF's centered in the middle of the radius. This allows the water flow to travel to the opposite corner of the tank and the flow path seems to move the water relatively equally throughout the tank. Of course this will vary due to the length of your tank.

You may even be able to install 2 powerheads/pumps behind the Poret and use PVC elbows/45's to direct the output flow the appropriate direction and be able to eliminate the need for a separate water mover in the tank. 

A DIY spraybar might be an option you could integrate near the background or even across the front of the tank that can be hidden by the plastic tank trim. Of course this would be dependent on the powerhead requirement. I find that 1/2" CPVC is entirely hidden by the front trim of my 125G tank & is hooked up to my canister filter. We drilled one small hole in each of the 2 center braces & used small SS screws to attach tube clamps to support the piping.

BTW, my 125G tank had ugly, scratched oak plastic trim when I bought it used. I just lightly scuff sanded it, applied a coat of primer paint and then top-coated with flat black. I used latex wall paint applied with a brush. I even did the top of the braces but not the portion the glass canopies rest on. It has held up well for 2 years and was easy to touch up when I scratched the paint during a vigorous cleaning. I don't regret painting the trim and unless you are a perfectionist, I think you would be satisfied with the look.


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## Diana

I am enjoying this thread. 

driftwood, 
I have that tank, and it is hard to get water movement with just one power head at one end. I have the Koralia #4 from back when all they had was 1, 2, 3 & 4, over 1,000 gph is what they claim. 
With that at the east end there is almost no water movement at the west end. (Driftwood, Java Fern, Anubias...)

A few ideas:
Put the big power head (whichever you decide on) inside the foam, but add one or two smaller ones at the far end. You could aim these as needed to reduce the build up of debris. 

As I understand it this tank is a room divider, visible from both sides? Only one end against a wall? 
How about getting the foam a little wider than the tank and making an arch that tucks into the end corners, sort of the 'half-moon' idea, but is fills that end. That would probably give you enough square inches of foam to spread out the force of the water so the bacteria grow well. Then also, there is more room for heater(s) etc. behind the foam. You could hide this behind some creative rock work (faux rock, I am assuming)

Also, if this tank is visible from both sides, would you be making a lower rock wall roughly down the middle? That also could be a hiding place for more foam and a channel feeding into the main foam area at the end. I am envisioning a PVC pipe drilled with lots of holes, surrounded by foam, then the faux rock set up to hide this. I will see if I can add a picture. 

I did something like that on a smaller tank (4' long), with real rock for some Lake Tanganyikan fish. Their 'caves' had a bit more than average water flow, so stayed really clean.

The upper picture is the plan view. 
The lower view might be seen from either side.


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## sewingalot

deeda said:


> Sewingalot, I have had similar problems with green sheet algae growing on one of my HMF's. I'm sure it was due to an imbalance in nutrients when I removed a large anubias and some floating plants.
> 
> I found it easiest to vacuum/siphon the algae off the foam during multiple water changes.


I wouldn't doubt it. I turned off the co2, meant to turn it back on and forgot. To top it off, I opened the blinds about a week ago, didn't shut them and hadn't been fertilizing the whole time. :hihi:

I'll try that with the siphoning! Thanks for the tips.

And driftwood - it looks like you are getting some great ideas from Deeda and Diana! I'm glad this thread is giving you a wealth of information. And yay for the supported floorboards ready for your tank! I can't wait to see. Oh, and to speak about an earlier post, it took me over 9 months to make mineralized soil. I totally understand slow. :wink:


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## deeda

Diana, I think driftwoodhunter has decided to locate the tank with the short end closest to the wall, at least for now.

I really like your idea for the half-moon design but I think dwh is trying to avoid seeing the edge of the foam near the front of the tank. But I think it's great that you can offer some experiences with a tank this size.

Keep the ideas coming. We'll make it difficult to choose which design dwh should go with in his tank!!!!


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## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> Yes! lol I think it must be in the running at least...


Lol. Maybe.:hihi:


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## Hoppy

If you do as Diana suggested, it would be like this:









So, you would need a 24 inch long piece of Poret, to get about a 3 3/4 inch wide opening in back for the pump and heater. The other dimension would also be about 24 inches - a 2 foot square. This would work very well because the glass tank sides would hold the Poret foam in place, with the substrate helping at the bottom. You would have about 576 square inches of surface. I didn't check, but that seems about right for what you need. I think it would look very good.


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## driftwoodhunter

Oh wow - so much to think about! All the possible designs! lol
I really like Diana's idea, and Hoppy's calculations are a huge help. Between deeda, Diana, and Hoppy, I am in a quandary - lol.
Things are moving faster than my brain can keep up with. As a side note, we are having or annual store inventory next week and my thoughts have been there - I have been tossing tank ideas around, but not focusing. (it's a 175,000 sg ft store and we have a lot to do to get ready).
I did plan on having a full length 3D DIY rock background on the tank. That was when I thought it'd have to be set up so the back glass was up against the house wall. I love those 3D backgrounds, they make beautiful back drops for the fish. But now that I can do the room-dividing set up, I _could_ see the tank from both long sides, as well as one end. I didn't even think about that - I was still planning to do the solid background. I have 5 louvered 7' panels that I was going to set up behind the tank - to create a kind of "open" wall between the living room and kitchen. Now I don't know whether I want to do that, or see both sides of the tank. My driftwood is awesome and to see it and the fish from all angles would be great. It seems a waste not to show off a big tank from all sides if I can, and all the visible sides would be clear of obstructions with the foam at one end hiding the gear and cords. I could still design small faux rock mounds and narrow strips to disguise and hold the foam as the ends of it touches the panes of the long sides. (am I making sense? To obscure the foam a bit and securely keep it tucked in, like others have used glass strips or acrylic strips) I would also make a faux rock berm at the base of the Poret, curved to match the bend in the foam, to keep the substrate out.
To satisfy my need to make faux rocks (I love making them, what can I say!) I can make central free-standing rock formations like Diana drew. Just a few clusters and not linear with the tubing - my driftwood is too large to accommodate that - but groupings of rocks without the added weight to the tank.
So a powerhead and heater within the foam on one end - and another Koralia type wave maker/powerhead at the opposite side, positioned lower to move debris and I should be good to go, am I right? 
I love the community tank this is becoming, and I don't mean community fish, but all of us coming together to brainstorm and create!


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## driftwoodhunter

I've given it all of 5 minutes thought, I and have decided to leave the background off and view the tank from all sides - it would be criminal not to! The faux rock groupings will satisfy me, and to be honest not much of my backgrounds are all that visible in the two 29s now that the plants have grown in - so I won't be losing out much by not having the same kind of background in the 125. Thanks for so many tremendous ideas! Now I'm going to cal my friend and tell her - she hadn't thought of this either - haha


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## deeda

I like Hoppy's idea a lot!! It would hide the majority of the equipment behind the Poret and would allow you to view the tank from both sides as you want. 

The DIY rocks are always nice and you may or may not need them at the bottom of the HMF. If you are using a sand substrate, you can also bend a piece of thin, clear acrylic and place it at the bottom front of the HMF (friction fit to the corners) to keep the sand from clogging the Poret. Just make it a bit higher than the substrate level. Place your rocks in front of the acrylic if you want to hide it.

The longer the planning process, the nicer the tank will look. Don't sweat it, someone else may come up with an even better idea before you are ready to start construction.


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## driftwoodhunter

Oh trust me, it will be awhile before I get anything done - heck, it will be a while before I can afford the Poret!
Everyone is coming up with great ideas - this will be a blast to build. I'm doing a dirt tank so I will have to use something at the base of the Poret to keep it from creeping under. (plant roots, too)
I'm going to use deeda's tip on painting the oak trim, too.


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## Hoppy

That 2 foot square of Poret foam with 120 gallons of water flowing through it at 240 gallons per hour, would give you a water velocity through the filter of 4 cm per minute. That is slightly low, but not excessively so. The pump or power head might be intended to give you 240 gallons per hour, but might actually give you more or less than that. In any case you would be in the right ballpark for flow velocity.

240 gallons per hour times 231 cubic inches per gallon = 55,000 cubic inches per hour. 55,000 cubic inches per hour divided by 576 square inches =96 inches per hour. 96 inches per hour divided by 60 minutes per hour - 1.6 inches per minute. 1.6 inches per minute times 2.54 cm per inch = 4 cm per minute


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## driftwoodhunter

I have been looking through my latest That Fish Place catalog, and I am eyeing three different pumps; an AquaClear Powerhead at 270 gph (12w) a Pico Evo-Mag Circulation Pump at 300 gph (8w), and the Koralia Nano - either the 240 gph or 425 gph (3w).
The AquaClear and the Pico both have traditional powerhead looks to them, including a place to attach a length of tubing to put through the Poret for the outflow. The AquaClear also has a venturi, the Pico doesn't. I wouldn't know how to vent the outflow through the foam with the Koralia because of it's shape, but I'd like a Koralia for pushing the return flow on the opposite side of the tank.
What brands of powerheads are you folks using?


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## driftwoodhunter

Hoppy said:


> That 2 foot square of Poret foam with 120 gallons of water flowing through it at 240 gallons per hour, would give you a water velocity through the filter of 4 cm per minute. That is slightly low, but not excessively so. The pump or power head might be intended to give you 240 gallons per hour, but might actually give you more or less than that. In any case you would be in the right ballpark for flow velocity.
> 
> 240 gallons per hour times 231 cubic inches per gallon = 55,000 cubic inches per hour. 55,000 cubic inches per hour divided by 576 square inches =96 inches per hour. 96 inches per hour divided by 60 minutes per hour - 1.6 inches per minute. 1.6 inches per minute times 2.54 cm per inch = 4 cm per minute


God Bless you and everyone else with math skills. ; ) This is a foreign language to me. Why do I feel like I'm listening to a decoder in a WWII movie? Does this mean the tide is in, or out, and when do the boats land? lol


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## Diana

Koralia would be my choice. Maximum gallons per watt for efficient water movement. Good at both ends of this set up, too. Outside the tank is a flat disc, so nobody gets caught on it at the visible end of the tank, and it can allow the tank to sit pretty close to the wall, and it does not need to hang on the edge of the tank. Cut an X through the foam as discussed way back when to stick the Koralia through. To hide the cord at the end where it would be visible, I would go with some sort of black tube, for example drip irrigation tube. You would have to slit it length-wise to get the cord in (the plug won't pass through the tube) but I think that would look neater than having the cord hanging out at that end. There are, of course, some electrical solutions to hiding the cords, too. 

I started with the Aquaclear power heads. Forget the venturi: it slows the flow and adds nothing that helps the tank. Just bubbles. The attachment (on the ones I have) are not very good. The suction cup system is not strong enough, the PH falls down. The over the edge bracket is OK, but of course you cannot put a standard glass lid on the tank with that bracket there. 

Another system that can be incorporated with the filter at the end is a river tank manifold. 

Put the pump inside the chamber made by the foam, and plumb the outlet to the other end of the tank. Lets go back to Paint and see if I can draw it... 

I am currently running quite a few of the Koralia 4s on tanks from 45 gallons up to the 125. Plenty of water flow. I have only one that quit: the tiny hole that supports the impeller shaft is cracked, and the impeller shaft keeps jumping out. The support is still strong on all of them. I have heard of fish getting into the Koralias through the grid, but that is not a problem at all, in this situation, and none of my fish have done that. 

I still have some of the Aquaclears running. Quite early I put a sponge over the intake. It does not stay on well. The intake is a tapered fitting, and the sponge would keep falling off if I did not have it carefully attached.

Another option is to have a slightly larger pump inside the space created by the foam and PVC pipe going to the other end of the tank. You will lose some flow going through the pipe, but this would assure reasonable water movement though out the length of this tank.


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## driftwoodhunter

Two questions;

Is a Koralia 4 the same as the Koralia Nano 425? That's the 425 gph one.

Also, How do you plumb the Koralia? The pics of them in the catalog show only a sphere/oblong shaped unit - nowhere to attach pvc tubing like on the kinds of powerheads I'm used to.

If all else fails (meaning my creative skills with pvc), could I have a K. Nano 425 within the foam's chamber, and a another (either a 425 or the 240) at the opposite side of the tank pushing water towards the filter?


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## Diana

No, the Koralia 4s that I have are an old product. The most similar item now available is the largest of these:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+4586+23592&pcatid=23592
I think the Koralia 4 moves about 1200 or so gph for about 12 watts? Something like that.

These are not adaptable for use with PVC. If you wanted to use the system I drew above (river tank style), you would need a more conventional pump like a water fall/fountain pump. These are set up to be plumbed. 

Yes, you sure could set up the foam filter with the smaller (well, mid-size) Koralia or other pump, gauged for optimum flow through the foam, then a couple of smaller Koralias at the other end for better water movement. I was trying to get away from electrical wires hanging over the edge at the end of the tank that is visible.

To get a similar GPH (as the Koralia 4) you would need 3 of the 425 gph products, and that might work better when you only want a certain amount of flow through the foam.


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## driftwoodhunter

I see - was I confused! lol

I am buying a Koralia Nano 425 from a TPT member. If not suitable for the 125, I can use it in a 55. 
I do like the system you drew, I'll have to read up on fountain pumps and see if I want to try this. As for the cord from a Koralia on the viewable side of the tank, I have a way to hide it fairly well. I don't know how long the cords are for them , though, and I wonder if it will be long enough to travel up the side glass and go the 6+ feet to an outlet...

well, it's midnight here, and as much as I am enjoying this and learning so much, I have to go to bed! I'm used to getting up at 4:30 for work - lol


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## Diana

I think you will have to put a power strip under the stand at that end. The cord from the Koralia will reach that far, but not to the wall, especially after it has gone from inside the tank, up and back down to hide under the stand.


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## Hoppy

I use a Boyu "wavemaker" powerhead, which is a Koralia type powerhead. I can't find it online now, but a LFS near me used to sell them. They look exactly like this one:
http://www.fish-street.com/sunsun_jvp102a_5000litres_cups A plastic sink drain extension pipe fits over the outlet very well, and could be siliconed on if you wanted it to be more secure. I've been using this powerhead for a couple of years now with no problem that cleaning the rotor hasn't solved.


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## Hoppy

This is my tank after about 6 weeks from planting. Notice how well the Hydrothrix gardeneri is growing - back left side. By contrast, my two small cuttings of Rotala Macrandra grew about 5 inches, then gave it up. One is still alive - to the back left of the mattenfilter. The equally small and even less healthy cuttings of Hygrophila sp. Tiger, next to the Rotala macranda, are doing well after struggling for about 3 weeks. And, the moss on the Poret foam is collecting algae and doesn't appear to be growing at all.

Tomorrow or next day I will be pruning the Hydrothrix and planting the cuttings on the right front side. And, I will try to clean he glass better. So far no green algae on the glass, just brown biofilm.


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## Hoppy

After cleaning the glass, pruning the Hydrothrix and planting the cuttings. With flash this time to show the LED light on the tank.


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## sewingalot

Looks like the plants are starting to fill in nicely. How are you fertilizing and co2?

Here is mine: 









Now that the algae is mostly gone, the plants are starting to respond favorably:









As you can see, I put back in the drop checker and turned on the co2 and slowly upping it as it's been without co2 for a while. Hoping to see a turn around with the plants now that they are getting light, co2 and nutrients.

The bad news is I'm facing a huge number of detritus worms. Like in the hundreds. I'm surprised as I wasn't feeding and the tank is pretty new. I guess they like algae. I'm more grossed out that they wiggle in and out of the HMF. I siphoned out a ton and there are still so many that you see them swimming all over the place. I made the mistake of not doing a strong dip in disinfectant before adding some plants from a buyer; just rinsed them well. I didn't think much about it at the time as this tank was empty and I figured any diseases would be eliminated by the time I added shrimp. I wasn't thinking about critters. I also have a ton of baby pond snails. Oops. Going to add some fry to help get rid of the problem. The bad part of this is I had a mini cycle right before I added new shrimp that I ordered for delivery the next day. I'm hoping that after 400% water change and adding some media behind the wall from another tank will help the mini cycle break. Luckily, it's only a small amount of nitrites and the ammonia was not detectable. But still not great for shrimp.


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## somewhatshocked

What's the water flow like so far? Noticed any slowdown?

I think detritus worms are a terrific sign that your tank is on its way to stabilization. I, too, cringe when I see them. Especially when they swim out of a sponge filter I'm squeezing or moving around. UGH. Gross.

That tank is going to look amazing once you have it filled with clado and about 8,000 Yellows!



sewingalot said:


> Looks like the plants are starting to fill in nicely. How are you fertilizing and co2?
> 
> Here is mine:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now that the algae is mostly gone, the plants are starting to respond favorably:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you can see, I put back in the drop checker and turned on the co2 and slowly upping it as it's been without co2 for a while. Hoping to see a turn around with the plants now that they are getting light, co2 and nutrients.
> 
> The bad news is I'm facing a huge number of detritus worms. Like in the hundreds. I'm surprised as I wasn't feeding and the tank is pretty new. I guess they like algae. I'm more grossed out that they wiggle in and out of the HMF. I siphoned out a ton and there are still so many that you see them swimming all over the place. I made the mistake of not doing a strong dip in disinfectant before adding some plants from a buyer; just rinsed them well. I didn't think much about it at the time as this tank was empty and I figured any diseases would be eliminated by the time I added shrimp. I wasn't thinking about critters. I also have a ton of baby pond snails. Oops. Going to add some fry to help get rid of the problem. The bad part of this is I had a mini cycle right before I added new shrimp that I ordered for delivery the next day. I'm hoping that after 400% water change and adding some media behind the wall from another tank will help the mini cycle break. Luckily, it's only a small amount of nitrites and the ammonia was not detectable. But still not great for shrimp.


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## raven_wilde

Hoppy & Sewingalot (and everyone else who has contributed their information), I want to thank you for keeping this thread up and documenting your tanks. Its a great read and I think I am going to set one of these up in my CPD breeder tank 

AWESOME JOB AND THANK YOU


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## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> Looks like the plants are starting to fill in nicely. How are you fertilizing and co2?


I'm not using CO2, just Excel at 1 ml per 10 gallons per day. I fertilize per EI but only about 1/4 tsp of KNO3, 1/16 tsp of KH2PO4, and 1/6 tsp of Millers microplex, once a week. No water changes yet.

I'm not really pleased with the tank yet, it just seems a bit sluggish in plant growth, water not as clear as I hoped. No worms that I can see, but my vision may not be adequate for seeing them anyway. (What you can't see doesn't hurt?) The best news so far, is that everything is now growing, with algae only on the moss, and it is what looks like diatoms.

Also, my Platys are not doing great. My LFS don't stock a good variety of them, nor sell many of them, and their Platy tanks seem to have more unhealthy ones than I like to see. So, I have lost about a third of each of the three batches of them that I bought. One batch included 2 that I thought might be goners when I bought them, and those died within a day. I now have just 10 in the tank. I'm thinking that PetSmart or Petco might be as good a source as the LFS now.


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## driftwoodhunter

*I have a question!*

I hope to get some opinions in the next few days, or time will run out and I'll have to wing it without the benefit of the knowledge hovering in this thread! 

I'm getting closer to setting up the 125. I've laid the new sub floor where the tank will go (and only there - lol), I'm finishing up the Hardiebacker board tonight, and tomorrow I'll tile the area. I'm rushing to finish this small area of floor because I've had plants come in (and lots of crypts) and I want to plant them in the 125 quickly. All the plants are floating in other tanks and I don't want to lose them.
So my question is; can I go ahead and build the berm & retaining strips that will hold my Poret, add my substrate, water, driftwood & plants and then add the Poret in about two/three weeks when I can afford to get it? That way the plants will be in soon. I don't see why it matters if the foam is added after the tank is full so long as the berm is tall enough to act as a retaining wall for the substrate and the area where the foam is going is clean and clear of debris. 

let me know what you think - thanks!


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## jccaclimber

You can add the foam at any time, it's just like swapping in a new filter. Just be aware that if you plan to silicone anything to the tank walls it's just a tad (ok, maybe more than a tad) easier before you have water in the tank.


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## driftwoodhunter

Excellent! That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure. One more piece of Hardiebacker to go...


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## deeda

I agree, you can add the Poret later.

Have you decided what size Poret you are going to purchase & exactly how you plan to place it in the tank? This will make the final determination on where you need to silicone in the foam retaining pieces.


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## driftwoodhunter

Sorry, deeda, I never saw your post to reply, I am getting the 19" x 19" piece and trimming it to fit.

I have a general question about adapting the Koralia that will be behind the foam;
since it is so small (it's a Koralia 425) I was going to find a thin walled plastic tube with the same inner diameter as the Koralia's nozzle. That way I can silicone the tube onto the nozzle as an extension to get through the thickness of the foam without impeding the intake grills on the Koralia. Having never seen a Koralia in person before I bought it, I didn't realize they were so small! There's no way it's going to extend through the thickness of the foam without an extension. 
Good idea/bad idea?


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## Hoppy

I went to Home Depot and looked around at all of the plastic pipe/tube I could find to find something for an extension on my Boyu powerhead. i ended up with a kitchen sink drain extension tube, which fit perfectly. There are so many tube type products there that you should find something that is pretty close to the right size. 

In a few days I plan to do another cleaning and water change on my tank and report on the progress then. One thing I have changed - I increased my fertilizing to 1/2 of the EI table dosages, but split up so I can dose daily. I mixed two bottles to dose from - one with the macros and one with the Millers multiplex and chelated iron. I think my plants are doing better as a result. This was about 10 days ago.


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## driftwoodhunter

I went to Lowes (they are next door to where I work) and found something in the plumbing dept I think will work. We'll see tonight!


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## driftwoodhunter

Woo-Hoo! I just ordered my foam! I emailed Stephan Tanner a bit after the fact - he suggested I use the 3" thick foam for the height of the 125 since the weight of the foam can collapse on itself when loaded with mucky goodness. I already siliconed in the retaining strips, and 3" foam won't fit and still leave room for the heater and Koralia. So I am going to add another set of strips to sit directly behind the foam, sandwiching it in and supporting it. I think it will work.
I was pleasantly surprised at how he almost instantly answered my email question (it was about the ppi size I should use, 30 was the go-to number). That's great customer service!
So I just had to put the two Koralias in to see how they worked (I'll remove the one that goes behind the Poret and add the extensions when the foam comes in) and I love how silent they are. I don't know if the 425s will create enough current though - I'll have to judge it once I get plants in. Right now I'm having a heck of a time getting the temp. in the tank up, I think I'll have to set the second heater up - the tank came with a Won Pro 500w, and a Hydor 400w. The previous owner must have used them both...


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## Itwasntme

I have/had HMFs in five tanks, some of them are now in their new homes but those ones Im having now, have been running over 1,5 year without any problem and any care. Im a great fan of them! Im about to start a new thread of my few anti-new (previous med-light) lowlights, there you can read more about them.


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## driftwoodhunter

I'm looking forward to seeing your new thread! You can also do tank journals, I find them especially interesting to read.

I'm hoping my Poret foam will arrive today or tomorrow, it was scanned for shipping yesterday and he's only in the next state over...

I finally figured out why my tank wouldn't heat up - I was trying to turn a dial that didn't exist - lol. On the 400w heater you have to rotate the top, I thought I was turning it and I wasn't. Duh. Tank is now up to temp. 
There's been some discussion on bubble wands on another thread - like them or not, I'm going to use a flexible 48" one just under the gravel in the 125. The water movement is so gentle with the two 425 Koralias, I think I need the bubbler to agitate the surface a bit more. That, and when I've had them in tanks in the past the fish seem to enjoy swimming through it.
I'm hoping to do more planting in the tank today, but I was in the ER all night (2am to 5:30am - they were packed!) because dopey me poked myself in the eye while moving a leather leaf viburnum shrub yesterday. My neighbors moved and left all their garden plants behind saying me and my other neighbor could dig up & keep whatever we wanted. By 2am my eye was in agony and I couldn't keep it open - turns out I have a bad corneal abrasion - the Dr. said he could see it before he even put the dye in my eye. Instead of the typical 3 - 4 day heal time, he said mine will take 7 - 10 days, and he gave me antibiotic ointment to use 4x a day for ten days. That's going to be fun at work, I can't see a danged thing when it's in the eye and it lasts for hours. Because my eye would be fine if I wasn't "greedy" and wanted some free plants, I made my own motivational poster on Picasa. (I used a pic of my own crabapple, but when the viburnum blooms I'll switch it out) I will make a small print of it, I thought it was kinda funny, considering.


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## driftwoodhunter

Ugh! Help! My eye is still gooped up with ointment and I can't read through all these pages without getting a massive headache from eyestrain - can someone help me with the best placement of the outflow of the filter through the foam? I think I read it here before. Middle, lower placement, upper placement? Seems to me it made a difference in how the foam becomes seeded?
Thanks!


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## sewingalot

Upper, pointing toward the longest part of the tank. Ouch on the eye! I hope it heals quickly.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks, sewingalot! That's where I had the Koralia while I was waiting for the Poret to arrive...and I think the eye is doing well, the Dr. said it would take a little longer to heal than normal, but it's much better.


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## sewingalot

Whatever you do, don't point it forward in the middle to the front. I hate that about my HMF. Absolutely dead water in the far corner and that's where nothing wants to grow well.

Take care of that eye and do what they tell you and it should heal quickly. I had a serious eye injury when I was much younger and know what you are feeling. Glad it'll heal in time. 

I'll try to get up some pictures of my tanks' progress. There have been some highs and lows, but it is finally settling in nicely.


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## kamikazi

Thanks to the LFS selling some use equipment I now 2 extra power heads. After reading a little of the beginning of this thread I'm thinking it would about doing 1 or 2 HMFs on my 40( really a 37). I'm sorry I didn't take time to read all 17 pages, but I have a few concerns/questions.

1. Where is the best place to get the HM?

2. what are yall using the hold the HM in place? where did you get it? does it need to hold the HM in place on both sides or just primarily inside to keep it from getting sucked in?

3. the HMF(s) will be going in an existing dirt sub. tank, so having the filters extend to the bottom of the tank isn't really an option. Would it work to use acrylic to build a corner container where one wall is the HM? I envision a triangle shaped box, two sides and bottom acrylic and one side HM. Does the HM need to be rounded or can it be a flat side?

4. How much HM do I need and how thick should the HM wall be?

5. Does the size of the container space, where the body of the power head is, matter?

6. If I do two HMFilters should I place one in each back corner or both on the same end? 

7. I currently run a External Canister filter on this tank, would I still need this if I did two HMFs? What about if I did one MHF?

8. I saw someone talking about moss grown on these, is there a conclusion as to whether that works or is a good idea? What about java fern or anubias?

Thanks for helping me out.


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## driftwoodhunter

I can't help you on several of the questions because this is my first HMF too, but I will say I bought my Poret foam from swisstropicals.com, and Stephan was super nice in answering questions for me pronto, like within 30 minutes (caught him at the right time! lol) He has a ton of info on his site, be sure to check out the FAQ.
Hoppy had a great idea for me about holding the foam in; if you put it on the end of the tank, a piece cut slightly larger than the side glass measurement will hold itself in when bowed (tension). I only wanted a corner filter, so mine is cut the same size as my end glass and bowed, held in by strips I siliconed to the glass. I used strips of stiff insulation foam coated in Drylok, but that's only because I do my own weird projects - lol.
It's not so much about keeping the foam from falling in, as it's keeping it from springing outward.
I just put in one HMF at the end of a 125g tank - I don't think you'd need two in a 40, one should be fine. Try reading thru the pages, there's tons of good info in them and the various links!


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## driftwoodhunter

Yea! My Poret's in the tank! I'll take pics tonight when the window glare's off the tank. The tank is full of tannins, so be prepared for dark water and puny plants. They are new plants and they need to grow. Happy happy!


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## driftwoodhunter

*pics of my first HMF!*

I am going to try and start my journal for this tank this week, but here are some shots from tonight;

All I have for lighting are the two standard (one bulb each) fluorescent strips that came with the tank. They run the full length of the tank in the front, and I have a twin T8 bulb shop light behind them, centered. One pic shows all the lights on, one shows the shop light off, and I like to finish the night like this because the moody dark spots are great.

The tank is a 125g (now holding 108 actual gallons, but not full yet) approx 72" long, 22" tall, and 18" width. No Co2, it's a dirt tank (clay, MGOPM, natural rock from the creek beds in the mountains here.) The two driftwood pieces are each 24" long - as you can see, one is floating and is being held down by velcro! lol.

To hold my Poret in, I cut and siliconed in two long narrow strips of stiff 1/2" foam like I used in the 3D backgrounds of the 29g tanks I have - coated in Drylok. I made a crescent shaped base that is siliconed to the bottom glass (foam and Drylok too) that's a retaining rim as well as a guide to shape the foam- the two strips are siliconed to the crescent base as are the tooth-like rocks that help hold the bottom of the foam in. I made a mistake in my first cut to accommodate the outflow tube, so there is a small cut in the foam - I may plant something there. 

For my outflow tube, I have a 425 Koralia and I super-glued an extension tube to it because the Koralia couldn't possibly reach through the thickness of the foam, then I siliconed over the glued joint because I'm paranoid. The extension is a grey plastic connector joint 3" or 4" inches long that I found in the plumbing section of Lowes, it's inner diameter matched the rim of the Koralia perfectly. 

Behind the foam I have the koralia, a 400w heater that's doing fine for the whole tank, and the tubing for my flex bubble wand. At the peak of the bend in the foam, there is a 4" - 41/2" gap to the glass.

I put the filter media from one tank in a knee-high stocking and draped it in front of the foam.
More detail when I get the journal started - thanks for all your help!

all the lights on;










shop light in back turned off - sorry for the hallway light reflecting! I like this lighting the best (but the plants don't);










left side with the filter;










right side where the other koralia is in the back corner, creating a circular flow










center of the tank;










and a close-up of the filter. I hardly notice it when looking at the tank.










I have a low income job with not much to spare on hobbies, typical of the mountain area I live in. All the plants I put in this tank came from SnS. Some were affordable low cost buys, some were RAOKs. If it wasn't for the generous and fair sellers here, this tank wouldn't be planted at all!

BTW, I picked the driftwood on the left because it looks like a dinosaur skull to me - and I never outgrew my childhood fascination with prehistory! There was a hole in the end so I stuck an anubia there, not thinking about how I see it as the skull's nose. Now all I think about is the sneezing dinosaur in Jurassic Park - LOL


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## kamikazi

driftwoodhunter said:


> At the peak of the bend in the foam, there is a 4" - 41/2" gap to the glass.


Could you clarify what you mean by this?

Tank looks great, btw!


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## driftwoodhunter

Here's a pic from the top, looking down. You can see the brownish-grey strip I made to hold the foam in, the amount of curve to the foam, and the space behind it. I could have gotten away with much less space, but I had these ideas that I could add polyester quilt batting behind it to polish the water (I use quilt batting in my filters on other tanks to clean the water up a bit), and I am thinking about adding extra foam for more surface area for beneficial bacteria (I have leftover foam sections), and I also didn't want the foam right up against the heater. 

The black strap-like thing you see draped over the foam on the right edge is the knee-high with the filter media from another tank, to help jump start this one.

So far my favorite part? Utterly silent. I do have a Marineland Penguin 400 running on the back of the tank (the previous owner ran it and a Marineland 350 Magnum canister - he had discus) because I started this tank up over two weeks ago, before I even ordered my foam. I had to, because I had plants coming in. I started building the tank with rocks used in other tanks and I started adding Prime and Stability right away, because I knew I'd be adding fish before the tank was cycled (don't throw things!). I've had 12 Columbian Tetras (Petsmart calls them Red and Blue Tetras) stuck in a 10g QT tank for over 5 months - it was horrible for them. I felt it was better to put them in an uncycled 125 than the 10g cell. That's the tank the filter media came from. I love watching them enjoy the 6' length, they are zippy fish and good shoalers!


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## Diana

The filter media from the Tetra tank has nearly enough bacteria to take care of the waste from the tetras. The other bacteria from that tank are living on the substrate, mostly (is that the source of the gravel in the stocking?). 
Adding rocks and driftwood from established tanks will also bring in more nitrifying bacteria and all the other organisms that are helpful in a new set up. 
Monitor the parameters, but I'll bet you do not see more than a brief, small blip in the ammonia. 

I have set up quite a few tanks by doing just that: A little of something from one tank, a bit of something else from another. Careful not to take too much from any one tank unless you also remove some fish.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks Diana! I was hoping the combo of the 108 gallons/12 tetras and the added media from the tetra's old tank & rocks from two others would do just that - keep the ammonia spike minor.
The QT tank the tetras came from was a bare bottom tank - what's in the stocking is a large (for a 10g tank) hunk of polyester quilt batting that I had in the HOB filter to polish the water and harbor beneficial bacteria for just this use. I also have the coarse sponge-like filter insert that goes with the HOB - not to be confused with the carbon insert, something separate. The QT tank is empty now and I don't have any plans for adding new fish to the 125 for quite a while (it may take me months to finally decide if I want to buy congos or put my existing Buenos Aires in there...), so I feel fine using these things in the 125. The driftwood is new and one piece is already getting it's bacterial bloom - something I love to see - lol.
Today is water change day for the other tanks, so I'll take some readings on the 125...I guess I need to start daily tests on it.


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## Diana

Sounds like you got pretty much all the bacteria, then, from the 10. 
Activated carbon is a pretty good home for bacteria, too, if it is in there long enough. 

When you are thinking about adding more fish to the 125 you can do the fishless cycle in a bucket with whatever media you want. It would take about 3 weeks, if you start with no starter colony of bacteria. Then you can move that media to the hollow place behind the sponge in the 125 when you add the fish. Example: A mesh bag full of bio-media, ceramic noodles, lava rock or similar. 
I have run large canisters (Fluval 404 and Rena Filstar XP3) on a 5 gallon bucket to cycle them (or keep them cycled). I am not sure how much bacteria that grows, such a small volume of water, but it sure helped when I was ready to set up those tanks.


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## driftwoodhunter

If I'm not going to use a canister, do I need to add anything mechanical to a large bucket for a fishless cycle? Would I need say, an airstone to keep the water from stagnating? 
I'm wondering if I can use a 3g bucket with a mesh bag full of pot scrubbers to do a fishless cycle...
If I get the congos (or whatever I get), I like to keep fish in QT for two months. That may sound excessive, but it makes me fell better. Am I right in believing that if I time the bucket's cycle too early, the bacteria on the media when added to the 125 might die off if there isn't enough food/waste for them? So I should add the media to the 125 how close to adding fish?
Thanks!


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## sewingalot

Your tank looks fantastic! I like what you've done with the driftwood and overall layout. In the FTS, the thermometer is more visible to me then the HMF. Great job on placement. :thumbsup: 

I'm not the best on cycling, so I can't really answer your last questions without fearing I'd steer you wrong. Hopefully, Diana (or someone else knowledgeable) will stop back in and answer your questions.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks! I can't wait for the plants to grow in - I just hope they do, lol, my lights are very dim.
Thanks also for pointing out the thermometer, I'm going to re-position it on the back side, facing the kitchen. It draws the eye to the area of the filter...I like being able to see into filter's water reservoir - the 'cavern" as I call it - from the kitchen side. I can clearly see if the heater light is on, if there is mulm or debris, and I am keeping an eye on some ramshorn snails that were in there when I put the foam in. So for I'm leaving them there, they seem to be fine and they clean the glass, etc.


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## deeda

WOW!!! I love the decor of the new tank, the driftwood is awesome and when those plants take off, it is going to be a jungle.

Extremely excellent job on installing the HMF. I particularly like your Drylok coated foam strips, they blend in well. I agree with sewingalot, the thermometer was more noticeable than the Poret.

You should have painted the outflow tube with Krylon Fusion black or similar paint as it would allow it to blend into the Poret better. I've found with my HMF's that it really makes a big difference.

For any future plans on installing an HMF, consider cutting an X or even just a large slit with a carving knife in the spot that you want your outflow to exit the Poret. It allows the outflow pipe to fit snugly in the foam and is much easier to cut than a circle. I messed up my first one by trying to cut a hole and couldn't get a snug fit around the PVC outlet pipe.

If your next HMF will be using a pump or an airlift instead of a fan type PH, consider installing the outlet pipe right at the top edge of the Poret. This allows some surface agitation of the water surface which would negate the need for an added PH for surface movement.

I don't think you will need any quilt batting behind the Poret. The foam does an excellent job of trapping any fine debris that is floating in the water. What it won't do is pick up any larger debris that stays on the substrate. I find that I have to do more frequent substrate vacuums to remove that stuff OR I temporarily install a power filter or canister filter to stir up and suck up the bigger stuff. Remember, the HMF is primarily a biological filter than it is a mechanical filter.

Great job overall. I'm sure it is your serious planning plus all the questions and suggestions offered by everyone that has gotten you this far.

And I'm sorry about your eye. I know how miserable that can be. I wouldn't have passed up free plants either.


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## driftwoodhunter

Great tip! I can remove the Koralia with the extension easily, I can still paint the plastic extension...it never occurred to me.
Also, good point on the quilt batting - it's not needed for polishing - I think pot scrubbers or ceramic noodles behind the foam will provide additional surface for beneficial bacteria though, I'm going to "grow some like Diana suggested - good tips all around! You're correct when saying the advice and ideas tossed around here are what got me to this point - I'd never heard of a HMF until I saw this thread...

I still have two 55s to set up this year, and I'll do HMFs on them, too - improved with what I've learned from this endeavor


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## deeda

Truthfully, I don't know that you will actually need additional media for the BB to grow on. You have quite a bit of surface area with the Poret and then add in the driftwood, substrate and even the glass surfaces.

If you do decide to add additional media, suspend it in a bag/stocking so it's not sitting on the bottom of the tank behind the Poret. That area will accumulate the fine debris that is drawn through the HMF and it will settle on the bottom. According to the links provided at the beginning of the thread, additional biological breakdown of the mulm will occur behind the HMF. Once it gets too thick, *some* can be drawn off by a quick siphon.


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## driftwoodhunter

Good to know - I have to admit I haven't gone back to re-read all the pages and the links (although my eye is much better and I have no excuse now - lol). I would have plunked that media right down on the bottom of the tank behind the foam, too.
I've made my mind up that if I get congos, I'll be putting them in one of the 55s when they're set up. I feel I have to give the poor Buenos Aires a break, and I'll be moving them to the 125 at some point - they _want_ to streak around, but they just can't in the 29. They will go well with the Columbians, too.


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## scotty82

I just wanted to stop by and say thanks for this thread. I'm just started setting up a small 10 gal shrimp tank and was thinking about filters. I'm sold on putting one of these in. Going to the store today to start buying parts to make one. One question though, I'm new to the whole power head thing. Never used one. What size would I need to get for a 10 gal tank?


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## sewingalot

Scotty, anything rated for at least 20 gph (gallons per hour) or more. I did read if you get too high of a turnover, the filter really isn't working at an optimal level and you aren't getting it's full benefits (bacteria isn't having a chance to work). But in a planted tank, you don't have to worry so much as you have them for backup on filtering out the bad stuff. This is more crucial on non planted tanks.


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## jccaclimber

sewingalot said:


> Scotty, anything rated for at least 20 gph (gallons per hour) or more. I did read if you get too high of a turnover, the filter really isn't working at an optimal level and you aren't getting it's full benefits (bacteria isn't having a chance to work). But in a planted tank, you don't have to worry so much as you have them for backup on filtering out the bad stuff. This is more crucial on non planted tanks.


I'm actually going to disagree and say you should calculate turnover. If you aren't going to use your HMF as a bio filter there is nearly zero point in having it. Due to the low inflow velocity they don't provide much mechanical filtration, and naturally they provide zero chemical filtration. If you are also writing off the bio portion the only thing you have is a nice wall to put plants on.
If you're using the Poret I'd consider going with an air driven lift tube (you do need to be willing to listen to the air pump) as that seems to work well. Of course if you want to run CO2 this isn't reasonable.


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## sewingalot

Jc, I agree that you should calculate the turnover 100%. I really think everyone thinking about the HMF should take the time and read over the links in the original post and continue reading until they full understand. I think most people don't get the concept behind the optimal flow and tend to think the higher the GPH, the better. Maybe I came off wrong in saying "you don't have to worry so much." You do want the optimal range, but if you are off a negligible percentage, you'll have the plants to help with those miscalculations. For instance, if you are using 15x turnover powerhead, you're missing the point of a hamburgmattenfilter. Does that clarify my post? Or do I just sound dumber now?


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## scotty82

jccaclimber said:


> Due to the low inflow velocity they don't provide much mechanical filtration, and naturally they provide zero chemical filtration.


I have read some of this post, just not all the pages, and was under the impression it was more of a mechanical filter? If it's not much of one, I don't know if that is what I want. I was thinking it was more like a huge sponge filter. But then again this is going to be just a 10 gal shrimp tank with live plants, mostly mosses if I can get them growing.



jccaclimber said:


> If you're using the Poret I'd consider going with an air driven lift tube (you do need to be willing to listen to the air pump) as that seems to work well. Of course if you want to run CO2 this isn't reasonable.



I will not be using CO2, but I was kinda wanting to stay away from the noise of an air pump since this will be in my living room. Would a power head work just not as well? Or would that just be waisting my time.


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## jccaclimber

I suppose it might do some mechanical filtration, but I've watched both flat leaves and human hairs brush up against mine, then slowly drift away. It'll hold what it traps, but only if it happens to be completely suspended in the water.
A power head will be just fine, just make sure it's small enough. It's very easy in a 10 gallon tank to end up with a LOT of current. With the noise concern it makes sense to avoid air driven stuff.


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## sewingalot

*Update on HMF tank.*

Powerhead with a sponge attached would be fine. In fact, that is my sole filtration in my 55 gallon. Does fantastic. In a way, I think I like it better than the HMF as it's easier to hide, clean, and is less obtrusive. But the wall of foam is growing on me.

Here is the long overdue update. Because of stupidity and not dipping plants, I've had a plethora of critters in this tank.

Hydra:









Snails:


















And icky detritus worms. I did a dewormer in the tank and it killed all but two of my CRS and the hydra. The worms and snails are unphased. Not happy.

But! The tank looks fabulous. It went from this:









To this:









To:









And currently:









The UG is monstrous. I believe this is from baby worms. The individual strands are super wide and all bubbly with bladders. I rather like it. I decided to remove all the hairgrass on the right side and replace it with more UG.









Sadly, with all the snails, the algae wall is completely destroyed with only a tuft here and there. Who said pond snails don't eat algae never microscoped their poo. :hihi: They are algae eating machines. I suspect that is why there is an enormous explosion in population.









Rotalas galore, green macranda, colorata, and something else maybe gai lai? 









Love the top shots!









Nice!









This is all down with very little co2. The drop checker with 4 dkh solution is a solid blue, I suspect that I could remove it with little to no effect. The plants are doing fairly well except the ones in the back left corner. I suspect this is a combination of two things. This is a very difficult plant and it needs a lot of co2 and also, there is not enough flow in this corner making it harder for it to get it's needs. This is completely fertilized with DIY root tabs and on a monthly basis, I through in a little fertilizer for good measure, mostly potassium and nitrates. Minimum work is down on this tank although the rotala is desperately needing a trim. On a random note, UG has attached itself to the top of the wall and is draping down like ivy. It's quite pleasing to the eye. I'll try to get a picture soon. In addition, moss is attaching itself to the wall in place of the algae. It's very pretty as well.

Pros:
Everything! Easy to maintain (zero maintenance on filter so far), equipment hides easily, brilliant filtration. 

Cons:
DIY required, critters ate my algae. Jerks.  But that last one isn't the fault of the HMF, it's mine for not dipping plants.


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## jccaclimber

I thought my UG was extinct, but recently found some on my HMF. Hopefully it will spread, and perhaps I will have an UG wall at some point. I'm curious if that would clog up the filter, or help it.


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## Hoppy

Sewingalot, your tank is looking great! Mine isn't doing that well. Right now I have green water, and some of the plants have given up completely. I will be doing another 60-70% water change today, and have raised the light a couple of inches. But, the fish are doing very well. I think my problems are from the substrate I used - the "topsoil" may be the problem.


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## sewingalot

Jccaclimber, I'd definitely let it grow on the wall for a while. I had just a small leave stick there and it's now about 2" x 1" in a short time period. Right now, I'm not having any issues with clogging as it's staying at the very top.

Hoppy, perhaps even with the ledge it's sucking up the topsoil and constantly suspending organics in the water? Have you thought about redoing it or are your plans to wait it out until the soil matures? And thanks. I'm pretty pleased with the tank. It's not show stopping, but it's doing well over all.


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## jccaclimber

Well, my loaches aren't letting it live on the ground, so I might as well let it stay there. It'll be extinct in my tank otherwise. Unfortunately most of my hosted pictures are lost (another forum accidentally deleted my account) so here's a shot of my tank. The HMF is in the rear right. Not the best picture, but it works. I'd be happier if I could keep my red plants alive.


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## sewingalot

Have you tried the ludwigia sp 'red' going around? I had it growing wonderfully in a lower lit tank. Your tank is very nice! I love how the filter is almost invisible behind the moss. Loaches would probably destroy my tank. The turface/red flora base is so light weight it would be a mess.


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## jccaclimber

I got a very small leaved "red" and a "big red" from you with some shrimp a while back. I can keep the 'big red' happy in my lower light tanks, but I'm still having a hard time with the 'red'. The 'red' has just been growing, but not as fast as it loses leaves.


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## jccaclimber

I had two sids in a tank with Safe-T-Sorb and they actually didn't make much of a mess. However, I think that's because there weren't any grasses or other plants with shallow roots.


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## sewingalot

I totally forgot I sent those. It took a long time (months) for the 'red' to adjust to my tank, but once it did, it grew well for me. Maybe you'll have the same luck. They do grow great emersed if you have one to store a few pieces. Have you thought about adding some red swords that grow slow?


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## jccaclimber

I have a rubin sword I want to replace the amazons with, but it's been in an area of low flow, and wasn't doing well. I've changed the flow and it seems to be a bit happier, so hopefully I can use it to replace the amazons at some point. I also have a klein bar in another tank, but would prefer the rubin grow up.


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## Hoppy

This is 3 months after setting up the tank. You can see that many of the plants I originally planted didn't make it. The crypts are doing fine, and the hygrophila in the back are doing pretty well, but that's about it. I have had a lot of green water so I have been doing big water changes for a couple of days now. Most of the algae is gone, but time will tell if raising the light a couple of inches will keep it from coming back.

My impression of the mattenfilter is still not very good. It definitely does a poor job of removing fine floating debris in the wate - polishing the water. I'm glad I am trying it, just because it is interesting, but I suspect this will be the last one I try. Possibly my next effort will be to use just an inert substrate, probably black diamond blasting grit, and a RFUG, with the outlet from the mattenfilter going down under the substrate so it can clean the water better. Then, of course I will need a powerhead in the tank to get some water circulation and water surface ripple.


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## sewingalot

Not that I'm glad you aren't experiencing good times with your HMF, but it is good to see the other side of the coin for those contemplating whether or not to go this route. So do you think without the topsoil you'd be happier? Your tank reminds me of mine in the initial stages (glass algae, some plants doing poorly) and I'm a little surprised it hasn't gotten past that stage.


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## Hoppy

The "topsoil" I used just isn't appropriate for that use, in my opinion. I think it is the cause of a lot of my problems. But, right now the water looks almost perfectly clear, after two big 60-70% water changes, a couple of days apart, and raising the light a couple of inches. My real disappointment is about how poorly the mattenfilter has done the job of removing the fine haze particles in the water. I knew it was not "sold" as being able to do that, but I felt sure it would do it.

If one were to set up a tank and have everything work perfectly, wouldn't that kill much of the enjoyment? Why try new things if you already have it perfect? (This is called looking at the silver lining.)


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## Diana

Would it help if you added a thin sheet of polyester like quilt batting to the back of the sponge? Gotta figure out how to keep it there...


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## sewingalot

I'm so sad that it isn't working out for you but glad you found a silver lining. 

Luckily, my water is now crystal clear and it does a wonderful job at filtering out the finer particles (not so much larger stuff, that has to be picked out or it starts growing on the wall). I have the power head set to the lowest setting and it seems to pull the dirt into the abyss. There is already a fine layer of mulm settling behind the wall. 

Diana's suggestion could be a great idea. Another thought, have you given much thought to cutting a thin plastic barrier (like report covers) and wedging it between the substrate and the wall stopping at the top of the substrate to see if it stops the fine debris issue? I wonder if it is pulling the soil out and tossing it around the tank making it hard to filter out the other stuff.


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## Hoppy

My water is still very clear, so maybe everything is now "maturing". And, as I usually do I am going to make a change. I'm going to set up a two bottle DIY CO2 system. That will give the plants an easier time growing. So, you can look forward to me coming back griping about how I have to prune every couple of days!

The CO2 system came about because I saw some intriguing check valves on Ebay, so I bought 4 of them for about $10 with shipping included. And, I found my tiny little Elite internal filter to use as the reactor, plus my wife has two 2 liter bottles of club soda now about 3 years old, in the pantry. Who could resist???


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## HD Blazingwolf

i found dirt to be a poor choice in my tank for water clarity

much was related to flow, some to tannins, others to it liked to float out of the cap with shrimp picking at everything

this is a cool thread

I imagine hoppy your the one who could not resist


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## Hoppy

My DIY CO2 system is now installed, and seems to be working right. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/178503-diy-co2-system-how-do.html shows the details. I also planted some more plants, Ludwigia lacustris.

After a day and a half I can already see some changes in some of the plants. But, the haze of algae on the glass also seems to appreciate the CO2! Tomorrow I clean it up good and do a 50% water change.

You know DIY CO2 is anything but "high tech", and the benefits, even on a big tank, can be considerable.


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## sewingalot

Nice setup on that link, Hoppy! I still like the black tubing a lot. I am a little different on low-tech versus high-tech setups. My definition is mostly defined by the amount of time needed to maintain a tank. I call it Low Technical Interference. 

The tank exploded in growth. Only source of fertilizers is the diy roottabs I made up of clay and dry chemicals (NPK, micros) at the moment. So here it was before trim:









Up to the water chock full of stems:




































UG is doing so well it is growing up the side of the tank and lifting out of the substrate:


















Incredibly sinking riccia (actually this is a lichen that came out of a planter outside):









Shrimp have discovered they love escargot and are killing off the snail population quickly!









The wall of carnivorous danger (TM by sewingalot, reattempting results in a 500$ royalty payment. ) The UG just attached itself and loves the HMF and apparently, moss is also self attaching. The algae is 99% gone. Darn you snails! I do have glass algae, though. :redface:









Yellow shrimp saying "Look at me not the plants!"









Post trim:









Oh yeah, and the rotala rooted itself also to the wall. It was pretty amazing. Should have taken a picture. Next time!


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## driftwoodhunter

That's fabulous! Heck, I'm so speechless, I can't think of anything to add! lol


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## Hoppy

I'm speechless too! My first suggestion is that you examine your thumb carefully, and report back on the color.

What light is that? It looks like Current USA I think - 2 bulb T5HO? And, I notice the drop checker - do you use pressurized CO2?


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## sewingalot

Thanks guys! The color of the thumb varies. Out doors, it's black, no longer brown from the things I've killed. I mean who kills daisies? So sad. Inside, it's sometimes green. But tonight it's red from strawberries. Wait.....what are we talking about? :biggrin:

The light is a Coralife Compact Flourescent. It's running one of those GE9325K bulbs at 55Watts. I started out just using excel on this tank, but when our dog got sick and I don't have the ability to go upstairs much during the day, I switched to pressurized. It's running at between .5 - 1 bps for eight hours a day, same schedule as the light. Usually the drop checker is dark blue-green, but it did get to yellowish green before the trim as the plants were covering 95% of the surface and kept the oxygen down. Hmmmm....maybe I should call this medium tech.  

I love this tank as I have only trimmed twice (because I was forced to) and after the algae startup phase, I only do small monthly water changes now (I use my TDS as a guide) and top up once a week or so. 

I found a unique way to clean the wall, by the way. It takes a couple extra steps on a water change, but I love the results! First, you lower the water about 10% of the tank. Then get a pitcher of water and pour it quickly behind the wall after turning off your filter. It forces mulm out of the sponge and it goes flying in the tank. Then you do a regular water change and turn back on the filter. There will be some cloudiness for a few hours as it sucks back up the remaining debris.


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## Hoppy

You probably have high medium or even high light, and with CO2 the plants should be doing just what they did - growing very well. With the dense surface planting the light will not be that high in intensity, but now that you pruned it, it should go back to growing very fast. 

Now, I don't feel so bad about my very slow growing plants, and my thumb now has a very, very faint green tint.


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## sewingalot

I'm kind of curious you say that my lighting is better. When I asked about this light last year, I was told it was low light because of the reflectors. I always believed it was around medium light at this height as it takes the plants to get to the top of the surface before they color up brightly and normally red plants stay greenish in the bottom 1/2 or so. Either way, the tank was intended to be low tech. In terms of filtration and fertilizers it is definitely. Just not all things. LOL. This is low-tech vs. high-tech kind of a blurry line for me. :icon_cool

Glad you feel better about your thumb color now.


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## Hoppy

I went back in the thread and saw you are using a 15 gallon tank, only 12 inches high. If the light is about 10 inches from the substrate a one bulb Coralife PC light should give you around 80+ micromols of PAR, which is high light. If it is 12 inches from the substrate it would be around 60 micromols, or high medium light. And, I think those are low estimates. Of course the only way to know for sure how much light you have is to use a PAR meter.

Since there really isn't any definition of "high tech" and "low tech" you are pretty much free to use whatever definition you like. I like using just light intensity, with "low tech" meaning low light, and everything else being "not low tech". Tom Barr uses low to low medium light on most tanks, but also uses high CO2, carefully controlled, programmed lighting, modified wet/dry filtering, EI fertilizing, etc. and once asked if anyone though his tanks were "low tech".


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## jccaclimber

sewingalot said:


> I found a unique way to clean the wall, by the way. It takes a couple extra steps on a water change, but I love the results! First, you lower the water about 10% of the tank. Then get a pitcher of water and pour it quickly behind the wall after turning off your filter. It forces mulm out of the sponge and it goes flying in the tank. Then you do a regular water change and turn back on the filter. There will be some cloudiness for a few hours as it sucks back up the remaining debris.


Pressing the siphon in to parts of the wall for a couple seconds works well too, although it can be tricky if you don't have a 90* bend on the end of your siphon/water change apparatus like I do.


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## Karackle

i've spent quite a few hours over the course of today catching up on this thread, and that was basically a "scan" i didn't read every post, I mostly looked at everyone's pictures, I'm so impressed by everyone's skills!  

Sara, the tank look GREAT! I LOVE it! Now you guys have me wanting to try this out :tongue: but I don't have a tank to start from scratch on, so I'll have to make do with the sponge filter for now  

Can't wait to see more updates! :biggrin:


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## driftwoodhunter

*Help!*

*HELP!*
I have a strange predicament! As some of you may remember, I set my 125g tank up as a divider between my living room and my kitchen. I'll be tearing out my kitchen base cabinets at some point but for now they are still up, which means I have a narrow space between the tank and the cabinets - just wide enough that I can get between them to access the "backside" of the tank. Maybe 12" - 15"? Anyhow, tonight as I was doing dishes I looked into the tank (because I love to watch the fish while doing dishes, it's not such a boring chore now!). My Mattenfilter is a corner one and the "open" side faces the kitchen - so I can get to the heater, Koralia, etc. Here's a pic to remind you; (kitchen is to the right)










So what do I see BEHIND the foam when doing dishes tonight? FRY! I tried to count, but there seems to be at least 55. I have no idea what they are, how they got there, and how they are still alive. I would've thought they'd get sucked into the Koralia, doubtless many did. What's in there now swim within an inch of it and don't get pulled in by a current. I've always had ramshorn snails that got behind there when I set it up, they do ok, and I've been too lazy to pluck them out. But what do I do with the fry? I could take the heater and Koralia out, net them and move them into the tank but I'm afraid they will get eaten. Are they so small that it would shock them to death if I even tried? I do have an empty 10g QT tank that I could move them to...
What do you make of this? The tank's inhabitants are 5 black neons, 4 harlequin rasboras, 10 Buenos Aires tetras and 12 Columbian (Red and Blue) tetras. The BATs and the Columbians are pigs and I think they'd feast on the fry - the largest of which s about 1/4", many are much smaller. I feed frozen bloodworms a few times a week that are bigger then these fry, lol. They are so tiny they don't look like anything yet and I can't tell what they are. How did they get back there? There is a minuscule gap in my foam within an inch or two of the bottom of the tank where I didn't get a connection to the rocks I used at the base. I assume that's where they went in? Seems so odd though! They are too small to photograph, or I'd try. So I need advice! Thanks!!


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## jccaclimber

Assuming they are actually fish instead of parasites that is really odd. Either a net, or a siphon (run it slowly) will work. The other thing you can do (which will make a bit of a mess for a while) is to lean the filter forwards keeping just the bottom in contact. Chase the fry out, then press the filter back into place. I've done this when danios decided to jump the gap.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks, tipping the foam is a good idea. I just took a long look at the tank itself, and I also have fry in the actual tank, swimming in the bottom 6" inches or so. (definitely fry, not anything else) I may try to net a few from behind the foam and see if they get harassed or not, the fry in the tank are being ignored.

Well, how exciting! I scooped a few out from behind the foam, and several are big enough to show their finnage and colors - they are Columbian Tetras. Woo-hoo! 55 was an over-excited estimate - I think it's closer to 40, but depending on how many live to adulthood, I may have to set up another tank...


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## Hoppy

That is pretty spectacular, finding that many fry you didn't know you had. I can't see behind my filter foam at all, so the Loch Ness monster could be living there for all I know. Now, I'm getting curious and may struggle with a mirror to see what I can find in there. My light raises high enough to see the top of the filter area, but not high enough to get my head in the gap to look straight down.


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## driftwoodhunter

lol - I wish you had a plastic Nessie to float in there for a photo op : )
My decision to try and free a few fry was a massacre! What a dumb move. Out of seven or so fry I "freed", I think only 3 remain. If there are more, they're hiding. I was watching one of the smallest ones swimming (cue Disney soundtrack) with my face pressed to the glass, when BAM! A Buenos Aires Tetra rushed in like a shark and gulped it down. I was horrified! This is my biggest, baddest BAT, too. Huge, deep bodied (and now plumper than usual) so I think it's a female. She's the bully, darting after any of the other BAT's or Columbians when she gets in one of her weird moods when she stakes out a territory. 
I see the rest of the fry swimming happily behind the foam, they are staying there until I figure out what to do. They may be there a while - lol. Interestingly, the big bad BAT also cruises the area of the foam where I said there was a small gap at the bottom - I think it knows the fry are in there, and wants to chow. I still wonder how they got there, I just can't wrap my head around the idea of them all swimming behind the foam - through a 1/4" gap - when they hatched (I assume Columbians are egg scatterers?) Obviously some stayed outside of the foam - the two I found swimming in the tank proper. Anyhow, I'm stoked! I found three surprise fry in one of the 29g tanks two weeks ago - they are rosy barbs, and I bet the rest were eaten by the tiger barbs in the same tank - and these two batches of fry are the only ones I've ever had, it's really fun and exciting!


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## sewingalot

Thanks, miss Kara! I love looking at the pictures too! I figure no need to read much of the beginning of this thread unless you want to set up the HMF or are just curious how it works. :hihi:

With a 1/4" gap it is possible the eggs themselves got sucked back there and then hatched. But lots of fry, small fish and even adult shrimp could get behind the wall with a gap that size. Have you thought about trying to block that area with another strip of foam?

So sad on the fry dinner. Fish are so mean sometimes. I suggest the 10 gallon quarantine with lots of small frequent feedings and smaller water changes if you want to give them a fair chance. I'm afraid in such a small space, their growth will start to stunt.

Either way, congratulations on the fry! Sounds like a healthy tank for them to want to even breed.


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## sewingalot

Thanks, miss Kara! I love looking at the pictures too! I figure no need to read much of the beginning of this thread unless you want to set up the HMF or are just curious how it works. :hihi:

With a 1/4" gap it is possible the eggs themselves got sucked back there and then hatched. But lots of fry, small fish and even adult shrimp could get behind the wall with a gap that size. Have you thought about trying to block that area with another strip of foam?

So sad on the fry dinner. Fish are so mean sometimes. I suggest the 10 gallon quarantine with lots of small frequent feedings and smaller water changes if you want to give them a fair chance. I'm afraid in such a small space, their growth will start to stunt.

Either way, congratulations on the fry! Sounds like a healthy tank for them to want to even breed.


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## driftwoodhunter

Thanks!
I'm going to prep the QT tank for them tomight so I can start moving them to it soon. I need to cover the filter intake with foam in the QT tank too - fortunately I have lots left over from my Poret purchase : ) 
I think the poor Columbians got happy & spawned just to celebrate finally getting out of the 10g QT tank (which 12 of the poor things had been in for 5 months) and getting into the 125g tank! lol
Interestingly, some of my reading on breeding Columbians makes it sound ridiculously difficult (1/3 RO water, many other tight specifics) but other sites make it sound easy. Some of the "easy" methods included not much more than a slow gentle current (provided in my tank by the two small Koralias - thanks to the Mattenfilter!) and periods of darkness. Well, I often forget to turn the tank lights on - sometimes for as many as 3 days - depending on how tired I am after work. I know this hurts the plants, but maybe it contributed to the Columbians spawning?
I really didn't want more of them in this tank because I was hoping to add to the 4 Harlequin Rasboras I have if that didn't overcrowd the tank - I never can figure out the proper stocking levels for my tanks. 
I will be setting up a 55 sometime in the near future - I guess sooner than I thought, if I need the space for surviving Columbians - because I can get what I think is a good deal on Congo tetras. My lfs gives price breaks if you special order in quantity, and if I buy 12 medium size, they are $2 each. I have never even seen a Congo tetra in person, but I think the pics of both the flashy males and the plain females are pretty. But if enough of the Columbian fry live I will probably nix the Congos. My lfs doesn't buy fish so I couldn't even trade...no aquarium clubs anywhere near me, either. Haha, it would be funny if I became overrun with Columbian tetras!

Oh, and as much as I hate it for the little babies, I know the Buenos Aires chowing down is just nature doing it's thing. It's just that I was so excited I called my best friend and yelled "I'm a Grandma!" then GULP. Oops, maybe not! I probably shouldn't admit this, but then I started wondering if people ever buy livebearers for their tanks, just so the other inhabitants had live food always at hand?


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## sewingalot

Nice on the extra foam. I have a small piece left and part of me is still kicking myself for not buying a larger size to use it for other things. Smart move on your part. Try to take pictures of the fry when you get them moved! I love baby fish. :biggrin:

I've found that if you contact some local or smaller fish sellers (like some of the ones on here) you can often find people willing to buy or trade fish that are popular or easy to sell. Maybe look into that if you get overrun? 

I often find the internet is full of conflicting information when it comes to pretty much everything.  Just like what you found with the breeding of your fish. I've found most fish will breed if the water parameters are consistent more than anything. Also, keeping the darkened lights probably did mimic their natural habitat and made them more comfortable along with the larger tank. I used to fill up my breeding tanks with a watering can to imitate rain to encourage my cories to spawn, lol.

I was lucky enough to see Congos in person and they were quite pretty, but I'm more of a streamlined fish kind of gal, so I passed them up. That and the $25 price tag at our LFS. 

I've done that myself "I have babies! Oh....they got eaten. Never mind." 

I've never bought guppies or any other live bearers to feed babies to other fish, but I have introduced other fish for fry control when they got out of had. I do have a friend that raises their own guppies to feed to their bigger fish as they don't trust the unhealthy feeder fish (diseases and such as you don't usually QT them and they can transmit them.)


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## driftwoodhunter

I apparently live in the sticks - I have Petsmart and one lfs, which is a dirty dive. I will only get fish from them if I do a special order and they call me when it comes in so they don't open the bag & put the fish in their tanks. I'd rather take the chance of traumatized fish freshly trucked, than fish exposed to their tanks. The amount of dead, dying and diseased fish in their tanks is appalling. Having said that, they do get all the cool fish Petsmart never does - Diamond tetras, blue tetras, on & on. (can you tell I love tetras?) As a matter of fact, I've been torn between the Diamond and the Congo, one reason I haven't placed an order yet. I like streamlined fish too, and I've tossed around the notion of getting the Torpedo Barbs (can't remember their real name! How embarrassing! lol) at Petsmart. I thought that might push the stocking in the 125 too far though. Considering how much driftwood I have in the 125, they might not be happy in it anyhow. 
I wonder what the consensus is on having live bearers just to feed bigger fish? Cruel? Or providing better and more varied nutrition? Are fry even beneficial food for bigger fish? I may post these questions on the fish forum and see what people think...
I will take pics of the fry when they get big enough to show up!


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## Karackle

Congratulations on the fry! That's always very exciting, like Sara, I love baby fish, so if you do move them to a separate quarantine tank, please do try to get some pictures :biggrin: 

As for the question of livebearers as feeders, it's an interesting one. Like Sara, I do not buy guppies (or other livebearers) to provide food for my other fish, however, I happen to LOVE guppies, I happen to think the males are gorgeous, and I've found they do better when males and females are present, as such, the population can easily get out of control. Instead of culling and euthanizing, I add fish to the tank that I know will hunt the babies to control the population. I would rather not "waste" the extra fry, if that makes sense? 

I also know someone who had a turtle and they put some feeder guppies in the tank for it, well, the smart little turtle did not eat all of the guppies, rather, he farmed them, he would let them breed and eat some and let some live so he had a constant supply of live food. (sort of irrelevant but I thought it was pretty cool, no?)


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## driftwoodhunter

That was one smart turtle! 
I started a thread on the fish forum asking about feeder fry, and it has been enlightening. If I do this, I believe I'll be going with endlers; small fry for small mouths/throats on the tetras.

If I'm lucky, I'll be moving the Columbian fry tomorrow - I decided it would be easiest on them if I just refilled the 10g QT tank with water taken from the 125g tank they are in now. One of the good benefits of a big tank is lots of water to share - lol. I just did a water change in the 125 today too, so it's good & clean. Now netting those swift, tiny suckers is another thing...


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## Karackle

driftwoodhunter said:


> That was one smart turtle!
> I started a thread on the fish forum asking about feeder fry, and it has been enlightening. If I do this, I believe I'll be going with endlers; small fry for small mouths/throats on the tetras.


hahaha I just commented in that thread as well, I found it and then saw there was a new post here  I think endlers are a good way to go too, and like you said, if some of them do survive to adulthood, you like the way they look, so no worries!  They're very cool little fish for sure!



driftwoodhunter said:


> If I'm lucky, I'll be moving the Columbian fry tomorrow - I decided it would be easiest on them if I just refilled the 10g QT tank with water taken from the 125g tank they are in now. One of the good benefits of a big tank is lots of water to share - lol. I just did a water change in the 125 today too, so it's good & clean. Now netting those swift, tiny suckers is another thing...


sounds like a good plan!!! And yes, 125 gallons certainly has plenty of water to share with a 10g :hihi: Netting fry is certainly a bit tricky, you might have better luck (and do less damage to the babies) if you try to scoop them in a cup, perhaps bend down the mattenfilter foam and catch them in the cup? That might work for the ones stuck behind the filter anyway. I also find that a brine shrimp net works really well for catching fry, the smaller holes don't allow the babies to get stuck in them and the material is usually softer so it's much gentler on them, in my experience anyway. Good luck! I want to see pictures! roud:


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## specks

sewingalot said:


> I was lucky enough to see Congos in person and they were quite pretty, but I'm more of a streamlined fish kind of gal, so I passed them up. That and the $25 price tag at our LFS.


No intention to hijack but that price tag is insane! :icon_eek:

I saw a few Congos in a LFS and they are priced at around $3 a piece. They were not some sort of rejected specimens and they looked really healthy. I'm from Asia, BTW.


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## driftwoodhunter

Well I was able to clean out & reset the 10G QT tank today, and I netted most of the fry I can see (it's rather hard to light the area behind the Poret to see) There are a few still back there, but they have to get bigger for this old gal to see them & catch them - lol.

They are now swimming around happily. I couldn't count then moving, so I took a pic while they were still in the cut-up gallon water jug I used to transport them from tank to tank. I think I can count 42. 










Obviously they can't stay in a 10g for long, just long enough that I can figure out what to do with them (however many live to adulthood). I honestly don't know how many fish I can have in my 125, so let me ask you a stocking question;

In the 125 I now have 12 Columbian Tetras, 10 Buenos Aires tetras, 5 Black Neons and 4 Harlequin Rasboras. (plus ramshorns - I adore them) There are still 7 Columbian fry I can see darting around in the main part of the tank, too. How is my stocking right now? I hope it's not over stocked already? I had really wanted to add to the Harlequins because their color is so intense and they school so well. I can put some of these Columbian fry in the 55 I'll be setting up and I still have an empty 29 - but I don't know that I want oodles of Columbians! I really wanted to have tanks with no repeat of species. 

I love Tiger Barbs & have 4 in one of the other 29s, but I was thinking about a large school of them in the 55 - not more Columbians. Sorry, I get off track so easily! My real question is do you think I can add anymore fish to the 125? It's a new tank and only lightly planted (waiting on the crypts to recover - which they've started) and I have some plants coming in on order now. I use the Mattenfilter, but I'm also still using the Penguin 400 HOB that came with the tank - I was worried about pollutants building up before the beneficial bacteria did. (It also came with a Marineland canister filter, but I won't be using it) Ugh! What will I do with these fish! lol I'm going to call my lfs today and see if they are interested, but in the past they have said they don't buy or trade local fish, but they will take ones freely given to them...

Just called the store - I was told they will take fish for store credit depending on who the manager was that day and the condition of the fish. I told her what I have, and they were interested - at a store credit of 25 cent a piece after they were an inch in length. LOL I'd much rather give them to local folks with tanks!


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## Karackle

First of all, thanks for the great picture! roud: they're so cute!!! :hihi: 

I would certainly gather information from multiple sources, but in my opinion, (After some googling to get the adult size of the fish I was unfamiliar with) I would say that you have room in a 125 for quite a few more fish, especially in a planted tank. I would say there's room for more in an UNplanted tank, so even if your tank is only lightly planted, I would think you could put more in there. Also, if you add them when they're young, but not quite small enough to be snackables, the beneficial bacteria will have plenty of time to catch up accordingly as the fish grow. The unfortunate truth also is that probably not all of the lil buggers will grow up, though, some of those look pretty big already and they've been living in a filter, so I could be totally wrong  I bet you could also find homes for many of them if you don't have room for ALL of them if you end up with more that grow up than you have room for, I'm sure there are local people on here that would gladly accept RAOKs or trades for them roud: Good luck! can't wait to see how they do! Be sure to let us know if you start a thread about them :biggrin: 

(sorry to hijack your thread Sara :hihi


----------



## jccaclimber

I've thought about this a bit more, and the area behind an HMF actually seems like a decent fry home. I want to do an experiment now. If your filter is like mine, other than the lack of flow and potential hazard from the pump, it's probably a good home for fry. That is the first place water goes after passing through the filter wall, it probably has plenty of diatoms and other things protected from the mouths of the rest of the fish, and it has no predators. It is short on space, but still has the dilution factor of the rest of the tank.


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## driftwoodhunter

I actually wondered if I made a mistake removing them from behind the filter - after all, they had to have been eating the tiniest of things off the foam, their egg sacks are gone. After I put all those I could catch in to 10g tank I realized they could starve. I crushed my flake food as close to powder as I could, then today I went & bought fry food at Petsmart, as well as spirulina brine shrimp for the other fish. First time trying that, and it was a huge hit. (the shrimp). Before, when I tried plain brine shrimp no one would touch it.

The fry food looks to be nothing more than powdered flake food, and it's so microscopic, I can't tell if the fry ate any. They acted like they were feeding but I don't know.

I think it was sewingalot that asked if I was going to plug up the gap in the foam. It's a pie shaped gap about 2 & 1/2" long (vertical) and at it's widest spot at the base it's 1/4" wide. I didn't stop to consider how it must compromise the pull of the water through the foam, after all I guess the water would take the path of least resistance. However now that I know fry make it through - whether they swam there to hide, or if eggs were pulled in by the current - I kinda want to leave it alone. Maybe sometime I'll get more fry! I know the water is being pulled through all the foam because I have tiny particles of debris/mulm? sucked up against it at all levels. Very faint to see, but there. I'll just wing it for now...


----------



## sewingalot

Cute fry! They look pretty big, too. They probably were feeding off the mulm. Too cool. Personally, I probably would have moved them anyway to give them room to grow, but I don't see why you couldn't leave them there if you really wanted to. Yeah, that fry food is basically ground up flakes. I ended up avoiding feeding too much in the beginning and tossed in a bunch of moss for the microscopic food and supplemented food every couple of days when I was breeding guppies. Best thing I've heard is live food. 

Nice on the winging it. I'd probably do the exact same when I messed mine up if I didn't have shrimp. Still I need to get a flash light and look behind there. Now I'm curious. How are the fry doing now?

Kara - hijack away. It was good information even if it isn't directly related, you know I don't care.


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## driftwoodhunter

Well, I still have approx. 12 fry behind the filter - ones I missed because they were too tiny to catch. They are bigger now and I'll try to catch them tomorrow & put them in the 10g with the rest. They have all survived so far (eek!) I have 6- 7 survivors in the main part of the 125 tank too. All total I think it came to about 61 or 62 fry. They run the gamut in size. Some are a 1/4" easily, others are 1/3 that size. It amazes me how fast they grow, but I guess that's the key to survival. 

I put some plants in the 10g with the fry hoping it would help them with both microscopic food and water quality (and shelter, though they won't hide in/under it). I don't have any moss since I don't have shrimp, but I'm going to post a WTB on the SnS for some when I can afford it. I think I'll just keep a 10g going for any possible future fry - so my QT can be reclaimed! lol

I need to get off my butt and set up the 55 so it's ready for them when they out grow the 10g. I've asked just about everyone at work, and I'm the only person with aquariums! One guy has a 30g, but he has 5 blood parrots in it, along with other misc fish (which I told him I thought was overstocked - he wasn't amused). One lady said she gave up on fish because she couldn't keep her kids from taking them out of the tank and trying to give them baths - which of course killed every fish, every time. What's wrong with people? I hate to feed into a cliche, but I work at Walmart and 2/3 of the people I work with are morons, and their kids are wild, destructive, unsupervised morons. The horror stories about what the kids get up to that I could tell...

I wish it wasn't so hot, and that I knew how to ship fish, I'd RAOK the ones I don't keep.

Oh, and a nice benefit to raising your own fry; they are like hand-raised birds. Unlike the other fish I have that are leery of me unless hungry, these little guys act like puppies. They follow my every move, they rush up to me or the cats, they swim around my fingers if I put them in the tank. Socialized! lol


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## driftwoodhunter

*Crappy pic of the fry*

Sorry for the rotten pic! Here's a few in the 10g...they are bigger than I realized - I'd say some are closer to a 1/2" now.


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## Hoppy

driftwoodhunter said:


> Oh, and a nice benefit to raising your own fry; they are like hand-raised birds. Unlike the other fish I have that are leery of me unless hungry, these little guys act like puppies. They follow my every move, they rush up to me or the cats, they swim around my fingers if I put them in the tank. Socialized! lol


You know, of course, that you have to name each one? :tongue:


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## driftwoodhunter

Right now they're all named "poor baby" because every time I go past the tank I say "you poor babies!" lol (I could name them "Hoppy's New Fish")

I just went to scoop out the last dozen or so behind the filter. I only netted 5, and I was sure there were more. Don't you know the little suckers dashed thru the small gap in the foam, and into the main tank. I counted 12 swimming in the tank - 12 that I could see all at one time. I guess that answers the question of whether or not I'm adding any to the existing school...

I'm rushing to rearrange two rooms to make room for empty fish tanks I have. It looks like I'll be moving the twin 29g tanks on the iron stand to my bedroom (need to make room for a piece of furniture), as well as the 40b and a 55 to the bedroom. I am thinking about turning the 55 or the 40b into an African cichlid tank. Maybe not though, I just can't make up my mind. Since I like fish that school, I want the bigger tanks for them. 

I just can't get over how there are NO clubs in my area. I think I'll make up flyers and post them at the lfs, the college campuses, and Petsmart if they'll let me...maybe we can get something going, even if there are only a few of us. 

I plan on doing the Mattenfilter for all my tanks now, and I wonder how much it contributed to the Columbians spawning. It forced me to use the lower flow Koralias - and I read they like a gentle current. I never gave water patterns much thought before, but building the Mattenfilter forced me to create a circular flow within the tank too. Just an interesting thought.


----------



## Itwasntme

Heres a closer look of one of our HMFs.

The other pic shows that you can hardly see it behind bushes on the corner of the tank. Its been working about 1,5 years without any care and I just love it! Its not the most beautiful HMF in the world after I cut it down a bit after changing the pump but it works perfectly so no need to hurry to make a new one. The tank is 125, pump (AquaBee Up 1000) blows 250g/hr, there is another filter in the tank too, JBL inner filter thet blows a bit under 250g/hr, water is nearly cristal clear.


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## Karackle

driftwoodhunter said:


> Sorry for the rotten pic! Here's a few in the 10g...they are bigger than I realized - I'd say some are closer to a 1/2" now.


AH! HOW DID I MISS THIS?!?!?! They are SO CUTE!!! And they are pretty big for sure! :biggrin: thanks for posting the pic!!! Good luck with all the rearranging too :hihi:


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## driftwoodhunter

I'm still asking around, but no one keeps fish here! My ditsy department manager said her husband would love a fish tank, so how many of these could she keep in a 10g tank? I told her NONE! lol Unlike some folks, I am not shy about telling people they are unfit pet parents! Makes me very popular, I'm sure. I used to be an emergency vet tech, and I always point out in the breakroom when someone goes on about a dangerous/dumb thing they did with, or to, their pet - like the idiot that takes her adult Basset Hound jogging with her on the sidewalk at noon on 90+ degree days. "Cause y'know, dogs are like a magnet for the guys..." Grrr...I work in a college town, and I've never seen so much stupidity massed together. Anyhow...

The ten or twelve that got loose in the 125 seem to be bigger and growing faster than the ones in the 10g. They (the ones in the 125) are swimming with the big boys, even zipping up to feed when the Buenos Aires do! Cocky little things! lol All the fry ore on flakes I crush, but still too small to eat bloodworms or brine shrimp - or so I thought. One in the 125 dashed after a brine shrimp tonight and "gummed" it until it ate the whole thing. lol


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## driftwoodhunter

Just thought I'd add an update, from another thread I started today;

java fern aphrodisiac?
Maybe the joke's on me! 

Yesterday I got in a wonderful, huge (like a softball and 1/2) portion of needle leaf java fern for my rather sparse 125g tank. I tucked it here & there, and I had a small cut in my foam Mattenfilter so I tucked some in there, right next to the outflow of current from a Koralia.

As usual, the fish were upset by my messing with the plants. I even disturbed the dirted substrate a bit and stirred up a light cloud of dirt by mistake. An hour later when I went to bed the haze was still visible in the tank. However, my Buenos Aires Tetras were even more disturbed than usual during the planting and I felt bad that I'd upset them so much. All they did as a group (of ten) was crowd into the large clump of fern by the outflow, twinning through it over & over, staying in the corner of the tank.

This morning the tank haze is settled and gone, but the tetras are still acting frantic - really spastic, worse than last night. I sat and watched them at length, and it dawned on me they may be acting as if they might spawn. I have two females I know of, and one is being driven hard by 3 - 4 smaller (males) fish. Other fish I think are males are dog-fighting in tight spirals throughout the tank. All of them are doing this through the java fern clumps. Also my water level is down about 2" - 3" due to evaporation (level with some of the java fern) and I was going to do a water change today. Then I read this online;
Typical of most tetras, the females have larger and broader bodies. For breeding, an area of bushy plants should be provided in a separate tank where the water level has been greatly reduced.

To top it off the Harlequins are at it again, the two largest males facing off side-by-side, fins straight up in the air. I don't know what I'll do if anything else spawns, I still have 60-ish Columbian fry to deal with! lol It's such interesting behavior to watch though...


----------



## Hoppy

About 2+ weeks ago I added DIY CO2 because my plants were not growing as fast as I wanted. The CO2 was amazingly effective! Now my background ludwigia plants are all growing fast enough that I have to prune weekly, and the small amount of rotala I have is growing well, instead of sitting there. But, the change from non-CO2 with Excel to CO2 and no Excel has caused my beautiful crypts to all melt. Some have started growing again, but they still look pretty bad. I knew crypts tend to melt when transplanted, but I have never seen them react to adding CO2 before. Interesting.


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## Hoppy

Look back at the last photo I posted, and you can see the impressive growth after DIY CO2 was added.


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## driftwoodhunter

That's an amazing testimony to Co2 : )


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## Hoppy

driftwoodhunter said:


> That's an amazing testimony to Co2 : )


And, all the extra work involved is about 15 minutes a week, unscrewing one bottle, dumping it down the drain, and resetting it up with sugar, yeast, baking soda and tap water. I do this after the lights go off at night, so the CO2 bubble rate builds back up before the lights come on in the morning. The check valves I have keep me from losing water all over the place when I unscrew the bottle from the cap.


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## driftwoodhunter

Hoppy, what size tank is that again?


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## Hoppy

driftwoodhunter said:


> Hoppy, what size tank is that again?


It is 65 gallons, a standard Aqueon tank. And, I use two 2 liter bottles of DIY CO2.


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## jccaclimber

Update on mine, and a warning for others: Despite it working in other tanks for years the aluminum angle has separated from the silicone holding my filter in. I've got it held in with a clamp at the moment, but will need a more permanent solution (looking at sump vs glass plates to replace the aluminum). The cause of failure was aluminum corrosion between the silicone and aluminum. The silicone is still firmly secured to the glass walls.


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## Diana

Since silicone clings so well to glass, I wonder if a strip of glass could replace the aluminum?


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## jccaclimber

Diana said:


> Since silicone clings so well to glass, I wonder if a strip of glass could replace the aluminum?


That's the plan if I don't opt to use an overflow/sump (I've been looking to try that). The aluminum bonds great, but unfortunately it corroded out after a year.


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## deeda

I use glass strips for mine.


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## sewingalot

Okay, I just subscribed to my own thread. How many posts I missed because I keep forgetting to check on progress. 

Driftwood, those are some of the cutest fry I've seen! The brightly colored fins are just enough to make me want to clap my hands and giggle like Chris from the family guy.  There are no fish clubs in my area outside of salties. Or none that I know of. You may have something about starting your own. I bet their are a ton of people in your area thinking the same thing. Maybe you could get with Rachel (msjinkzd) and ask if she'd be interested or knows someone that would be interested in the fry as they grow. I ask her all my fishy questions. And kudos for you for being an excellent fishy parent and telling that girl the correct information. :thumbsup:



> I plan on doing the Mattenfilter for all my tanks now, and I wonder how much it contributed to the Columbians spawning. It forced me to use the lower flow Koralias - and I read they like a gentle current. I never gave water patterns much thought before, but building the Mattenfilter forced me to create a circular flow within the tank too. Just an interesting thought.


Me too. I am so sold on this filtration that I now only use a sponge power head in my 55. I call it my mini-HMF. As far as stability, my tank is doing beautifully. I think it's been very successful.



Itwasntme said:


> Heres a closer look of one of our HMFs.


That is a great idea to be able to add a HMF to an already existing set up or to avoid having to attach parts to your tank. Brilliant.



driftwoodhunter said:


> java fern aphrodisiac?
> Maybe the joke's on me!




I foresee this being sold in powder form in health food stores. That is awesome about the new set of fish breeding! Pretty soon you'll have even more babies behind your filter. 



Hoppy said:


> About 2+ weeks ago I added DIY CO2 because my plants were not growing as fast as I wanted. The CO2 was amazingly effective! Now my background ludwigia plants are all growing fast enough that I have to prune weekly, and the small amount of rotala I have is growing well, instead of sitting there. But, the change from non-CO2 with Excel to CO2 and no Excel has caused my beautiful crypts to all melt. Some have started growing again, but they still look pretty bad. I knew crypts tend to melt when transplanted, but I have never seen them react to adding CO2 before. Interesting.


That is very interesting about the co2 melting the crypts. Maybe they are putting up newer leaves with less cuticle thickness to take advantage or something scientific sounding. Or knowing crypts, they aren't happy with the change and are pouting like a toddler denied a toy at the store.

I had diy co2 on my 55 successfully when everyone else was saying it wasn't possible except dewalltheway. I think it's great that you are showing that it is possible for the lower tech setups and to have a dramatic difference in plant health.




jccaclimber said:


> Update on mine, and a warning for others: Despite it working in other tanks for years the aluminum angle has separated from the silicone holding my filter in. I've got it held in with a clamp at the moment, but will need a more permanent solution (looking at sump vs glass plates to replace the aluminum). The cause of failure was aluminum corrosion between the silicone and aluminum. The silicone is still firmly secured to the glass walls.


Oh no! Do you think you will drain the tank, go with another type of filtration or do something like Itwasntme to fix the issue. Right now, I am grateful that I was too cheap to buy the aluminum as I really liked the look. Good luck to you on fixing it! I wonder if you could use superglue? I don't know if it bonds well to glass or plastic underwater, though.

I'll post a bunch of pictures soon. I have a great update, I think. The UG is simply stunning to me.


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## sewingalot

So to continue with a new post just for an update on my own HMF tank, here goes. I am really pleased with the setup and the shrimp population is growing fast. They ignore the food for the aufwuch stuck to the wall. I pretty much have ignored them and just through in a pellet of food to mainly feed pest snails to remove them slowly out of the tank. I added a larger ratio of RO water this time around and stirred up the substrate which lead to a small outbreak of green paint algae. It's not a big deal, and I'm planning to leave it for food for the shrimp. It is already disappearing. Other than that, the tank is growing so well, I can't keep up with trimming. I throw away tons of stems and they return just as quickly as I can cut them. Plants keep emersing themselves and it's a fun tank to watch. Here are the pictures without further ado:










Rotala macranda 'green' and Ludwigia cf. glandulosa x palustris emersing:









The ludwigia









The rotala









More plants starting to break the surface:









The wall of death. UG also adores the aufwuch. It's what I like to refer to as a symbiotic relationship and am loving this 5000 times more than my planned algae wall of doom.









The carpet of UG:




































Rotala rotundfolia:


















Ludwigia sp 'curly' (I think this is the going name)









And finally - The glass algae (because a pictorial post by me without algae is abominable)


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## Chlorophile

Just popped in to this thread and havent read any of the past posts but, does this tank have co2? 
I'm impressed by your UG growth if it doesnt.. I might have to try it in my low-tech tanks..

edit: I see a drop checker, but it looks very blue so I wasn't sure.


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## sewingalot

Yes, there is co2, but it is at such a low level that the drop checker doesn't even turn green until the surface gets covered almost entirely of plants. But that is more due to lack of O2/CO2 exhange on the surface than the actual co2. I've been pretty successful with UG without co2 entirely as well. It even tends to fair better (larger leaves, bigger bladders) in my experience in lower co2 environments.


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## Bahugo

I am jealous of your growth Sara! I miss my stem plants


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## Hoppy

The UG covered mattenfilter is spectacular! I may start looking for some to grow on mine. The moss I was trying didn't do well at all on the filter - it just grew outwards until it floated off, never attaching at all to the foam. I finally removed it all, except what escaped to grow on the substrate.


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## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> I am so sold on this filtration that I now only use a sponge power head in my 55. I call it my mini-HMF.


Bwahahaha! I'm not about to do anything but post that I'm laughing.


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## Karackle

wow Sara, this tank is looking great too!!! You know me and my love of the jungle look which makes me LOVE this tank all the more :hihi: There is such great color and healthy plants in this tank, I just want to dive into the tank and go for a swim among the jungle  The UG growing on the HMF is awesome, it looks really cool and natural. It's a cool looking plant besides, what are the light / CO2 conditions required by UG?

yay for shrimpies!! (and YAY for ignorable tanks :hihi WOOHOO!

Also, what is aufwuch? I've never heard that word.


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## Hoppy

Karackle said:


> Also, what is aufwuch? I've never heard that word.


I was hoping someone would ask :biggrin:


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## sewingalot

*snort* I actually have a one up on you guys? Boy do I feel smart for a change. Aufwuch is "A plant or animal organism which is attached or clings to surfaces of leaves or stems of rooted plants above the bottom stratum." (McGraw-Hill Dictionary of Scientific & Technical Terms, 6E, Copyright © 2003 by The McGraw-Hill Companies, Inc. on freedictionary.com)

It's the little microscopic critters and algae like whats often referred to as GDA is full of aufwuch.

If it weren't an oven outside, I'd send you some. If you haven't found it by the fall let me know and we'll swap plants. (And I hope this doesn't get me a ton of other pms from people like posting I'd share with Complexity a crypt in my other journal did. I'll save the rest of you the time, no I'm not offering to everyone, if I want to sell or trade I'll post in the sales forum. LOL)


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## Hoppy

Aufwuch are awful?:biggrin:


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## driftwoodhunter

Amazing, amazing tanks and progress! If I hadn't tried a Mattenfilter already, I would _have_ to now - think of all the people you have all inspired!


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## Karackle

sewingalot said:


> If it weren't an oven outside, I'd send you some.


send who some what? Aufwuch? :hihi:


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## Hoppy

Karackle said:


> send who some what? Aufwuch? :hihi:


Auf wuch yer head!! :bounce:

OK, I'll quit doing this.


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## sewingalot

As Garry Coleman would say underwater: "Auf wuch yo talkin bout Willis?" ;0) Kara, both. LOL


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## Karackle

Hoppy said:


> Auf wuch yer head!! :bounce:





sewingalot said:


> As Garry Coleman would say underwater: "Auf wuch yo talkin bout Willis?"


Hahahahaha LOL these seriously both had me cracking up! I wish I knew how to do the little rolling on the floor laughing guy, but this will have to do :icon_lol: :bounce:



sewingalot said:


> ;0) Kara, both. LOL


NICE!


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## sewingalot

I've got one more! What did the yellow shrimp say to the the snail? "Auf wuch your step, mister!" :tongue:


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## Karackle

:icon_lol: NICE ONE!!!


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## sewingalot

Okay, I'm done. Did a trim, so I thought it'd be a perfect time to show off the wall of terror. Now that it's covered the top portion, it's growing down the wall vertically. Kind of neato. Some moss has also attached itself.

FTS post trim:









Still cloudy after the yanking of stems, but it gives you an idea:









Terrifying, isn't it? Oooooooooooooooooo!









And a little on the gunky side as far as collecting stray leaves during trimming:









Since I yanked up a lot of the UG on the right side, the shrimpers had to investigate for structural damage:









The height:









When I was removing some UG, I found the erio growing underneath that I thought had died. Happy Days!









Still cloudy, but a top down to show off my algae (and the UG carpet for those that don't appreciate my algae, lol):


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## Hoppy

Have we waited long enough to reach a consensus about how well we like the mattenfilter for low tech tanks? I'm leaning pretty strongly to the + side now.

However, one of my adult, full grown platys is living inside the filter! I assume he jumped in sometime, but I don't know when. I dropped a bit of flake food in for him/her, but I will have to figure out a good way to do a trapping job soon. Maybe toss him/her a rope???


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## jccaclimber

Lean the filter forwards at the top and scare the fish out, or just net it if there isn't too much gear in the way.


----------



## Hoppy

My corner mattenfilter isn't leanable. I have much of the inside occupied with the powerhead and heater, so I can't net him. I'm thinking about a trap. But, he might just be a hermit fish, content to live out his life in isolation.


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## jccaclimber

Hoppy said:


> My corner mattenfilter isn't leanable. I have much of the inside occupied with the powerhead and heater, so I can't net him. I'm thinking about a trap. But, he might just be a hermit fish, content to live out his life in isolation.


I'm not clear why you can't hold the bottom in place, pinch the top (this might be enough, and lean it out? It was a bit of a pain in mine, but set danios free on several occasions.


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## driftwoodhunter

I took out my heater (it's not needed now anyhow) to net my fry that were behind the filter - having said that, I still have two back there that I have to get. It is a pain navigating past the powerhead, but I use two nets - one to drive the fish into the second, stationary one.

I also want to say that I love the progress on these tanks! I don't have nearly as much, but I'm not using any Co2. My crypts are doing the best, they bounced back much faster than I expected. I'm still having lighting issues too, being a deeper tank (a 125) but Hoppy advised me on what i need and I'm going to start saving for it soon - lol.

I was so entranced by sewingalot's growth on the top of her filter, that I did the same with some needle leaf java fern. I inserted some into that slash I made by mistake in my filter, and around the grey plastic outflow of the koralia that's behind the foam. I'll try to take pics tomorrow...


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## driftwoodhunter

I can't really bend/pinch my filter either - the tension from being in a corner plus the 2" thickness makes it rather stiff and not very pliable. If I try to maneuver it, it ends up being a mess...also, it's attaining a slight, fine coating (mulm?) that I don't want to disturb. Hoppy's might be as difficult to tip over from the top as mine? (also, my fry all swam to the bottom to hide when I tried to bend the top)


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## sewingalot

Nice idea on the java fern. Can't wait for pictures!

Hoppy, maybe try a larger diameter of tubing you can get from Lowes? I know many a fish that's taken a ride from siphoning. If it is a larger tube, it'll create a larger pull than a smaller diameter and can be big enough so the fishy doesn't get stuck.


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## Karackle

Sara, the tank looks GREAT! I can't believe how happy and healthy all the plants look, I really might need to try me a HMF one of these days roud: That UG has filled in so fast! And looks REALLY cool on the HMF! That's one of the awesomer accidents of aquascaping that i've seen  roud:

Hoppy - I think Sara might be on to something with the siphoning idea, that might be your best bet in order to get the fish out without having to move around equipment or the HMF etc. And if you get him/her out and find him/her right back in the corner, then you can probably assume s/he enjoys the quiet, solitary life :hihi:


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## Hoppy

Siphon water out of behind the mattenfilter? Chase the fish with the siphon end? All, while being sure to catch the water in a 5 gallon bucket on the floor, without overflowing the bucket? That would make a good YouTube episode. Today I spent a few minutes discussing this with the fish, but he wouldn't express an opinion.


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## driftwoodhunter

Hoppy said:


> Siphon water out of behind the mattenfilter? Chase the fish with the siphon end? All, while being sure to catch the water in a 5 gallon bucket on the floor, without overflowing the bucket? That would make a good YouTube episode. Today I spent a few minutes discussing this with the fish, but he wouldn't express an opinion.



HAHA I love this! Yes, when you post that vid, be sure to send us a link :hihi:
Why not just siphon the water back into the main part of the tank instead of a bucket?



Anyhow,I forgot to take a pic of the java fern plugged into the filter, but here are some updates on the fry;

A pic of what the adults look like (have 12 in the tank) they are 2" long.










And two pics of some fry next to an adult black tetra. I think I have 9 - 12 fry in the tank (not counting the two still stuck behind the filter I keep forgetting to free them!) and I can't count the ones growing out in the 40B, but it's probably 45 - 55. 



















I'll get the java fern tonight, I really like having plants stuck in the filter - to the point that I'm seriously considering making more small slashes to plug a few more pieces. Not enough cuts to ruin the filter, don't worry!


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## Karackle

heeheehee those fry are CUTE! It's so funny because they have the adult coloring, but they clearly look like babies still. I love it. 

Also I'm 100000% jealous of your photography skills!!!


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## driftwoodhunter

You are sweet - my photography skills stink when it comes to the aquariums! I don't know how people do it - I can't get anything unless the fish are hovering nearly still, and the camera speed is pushed up to 3200! I have found that all the fish (but esp. the fry, black neons, and Columbians) love to hang out in front of the outflow koralia that's behind the foam. The fish do the same off & on in front of the other koralia, but now as much as in front of the foam. I wonder if some interesting microscopic yummies are breeding behind the foam and get flushed out by the koralia? The fish there often act like they are diving at morsels going by, but I can't see anything.

The fry ARE cute because they look like chubby little mini-adults - they act like them now too, no more hiding for 90% of them. Some dash in and grab food from the Buenos Aires - that's gutsy! lol


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## driftwoodhunter

Here are a bunch of pics - I may go back and add one from the beginning, and one of the slice in the filter that is now plugged with java fern...


May 2012 - I thought I had pics from the set-up, but this is the oldest pic I have...










The slice in the filter - I misjudged where my Koralia was going to come out...










The java fern plugged into the cut...










And pics of the tank now, from left, center, and right side, plus a shot of the plant munchin' fish! lol As you can see, the plants have changed based on what is tasty and what is not. I also have what I think is BBA on the driftwood to the left - it sprang up not long after setting up the tank, and it has (so far) never spread. I tried picking a few clumps off with my tweezers - that stuff is stuck on hard! I worry that I may cause it to spread by disturbing it, I will still pluck away. I had it once in a 55, but it resolved itself after a few months. Hoping this will too. It doesn't bother me because it stays put, but I read the horror stories...

The left (filter) side; 










The center;










The right side;










Plant devouring fish!










The tank is set up to be seen from the back, too, but I haven't torn out the kitchen cabinets yet, so it's hard to see.


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## sewingalot

LOL, Hoppy. Did you figure out a way to remove the fish yet or is he staying a hermit? 

Driftwood - I love the babies! They are so cute being all smooched up and fat little versions of their parents. I'm so excited to see them growing up that quickly. That java fern is looking great in the filter. It will be awesome as it grows in. I can't wait until you get the back viewable for pictures. I love the look of this tank.


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## Hoppy

sewingalot said:


> LOL, Hoppy. Did you figure out a way to remove the fish yet or is he staying a hermit?


Nope, he comes to the surface to see me, then vanishes to the bottom. He is accompanied by at least one baby fish, so I assume there is a gap that they came through. I haven't found the gap. I just put a few flakes of fish food there about once a week. Maybe I will finally decide to remove the electric stuff and get serious with a net in a few days.

Here is what it looked like yesterday, after pruning.


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## driftwoodhunter

Wow, Hoppy, that is some fantastic growth! The tank looks awesome : ) 

sewingalot, I am finding the list of plants that (so far) are doing well in such low tech conditions is small, but I don't mind. The crinium, java fern, and crypts are doing the best by far. If I can only have them in the tank, I'm fine.The crypts are slowly growing well, and I got some c. balanese from SnS, that never melted at all. They really add a touch of drama due to their length. I have another plant shipment coming in this week, and I can't wait to see if any will fit/do well in this tank. It's mostly java ferns. Java ferns are new to me, and I really like them (the narrow leaf I have now). I hope they continue to do well.


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## driftwoodhunter

Helllloooo...

Any updates from anyone? I'd love to know how the tanks are doing! I'm making plans for my "winter" project; two 55s side by side along an exterior wall that joins my living room and kitchen. That would put the 55s as the top of "T", with my 125 across the room making the column part of the "T" and a 5' or so corridor between them to go from the living room to the kitchen. I plan on repeating the HMF set up in both 55s, I am so pleased with it. 

So how are your tanks doing???


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## Diana

I have set up this concept in my newest tank. 
The tank holds 88 gallons of water, and was used before with some sort of internal sump idea. All that is left of it are ridges where the walls were cut off. A couple of them were really well placed to stabilize some Poret material. 

I cut 2 pieces the same size, and put them across the back corners at 45*. They are as tall as the tank, and fit snug under the acrylic that is across the top of the tank. Very slight tension holds them in place, and some rocks help. 
Behind each one I placed the intake to the filters. I am using Fluval 404s (2 of them). The inlet and outlet are crossed so filter #1 inlet is at the north end behind a sheet of Poret, outlet at the south. Filter #2 inlet is behind the south sheet of Poret, outlet on the north. The outlets are about at the 1/3 and 2/3 marks on the back wall, aimed at the front of the tank. The intakes have a coarse sponge over them, coarser than the Aquaclear sponges. (Fluval sponges are the same pore size as Aquaclear, so I use coarser sponges for the intakes)
The hard scape is a ledger style dry stack wall. Hmm... is it still 'dry' stack when it is under water? There is no mortar or foam...
When I look at the tank from the front I mostly see the rocks. The Poret is the very coarse black one, and hides quite well at the back of the tank. 

I have been cycling it, and it just finished yesterday. I am keeping it cycled with ammonia until I am ready to add the fish. 

I have not added plants to the Poret. There are plants in the substrate, which is Safe-T-Sorb.


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## Hoppy

My mattenfilter is doing fine. I get BBA growing on the outside of the top half of the filter, but every month or so I squirt it with a mix of a cup of water and 5 ml of Excel, while the pumps are off, just before I change the tank water. That kills the BBA, but eventually it returns. Other than that I have no algae problems at all.

The biggest surprise, for me, is how poorly my crypts are doing now that the tank is so full of plant mass. This may be due to shading from the higher plants. But, the crypts grew back very small after they melted when I added DIY CO2, and they haven't grown back at all.

I still get occasional fish finding a way to get behind the filter, but they seem to survive back there, at least for a few weeks. My fish are just Platys, so I now have lots of them in the tank, with more being left by the stork every week.


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## driftwoodhunter

The tank looks beautiful Hoppy - do you use any kind of osmocote-type capsules? I wonder if that would help the crypts? I need to place a few in my tanks again, I only remember to every 6 months or so...

The stork bringing you Platys cracked me up - I instantly had a vision of saltwater flying fish skipping in & dropping parcels of Platys...

Diana, if you get a chance we would love to see pics of your tank!


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## Hoppy

I don't use substrate fertilizing, but I do have a layer of mineralized topsoil under the top layer of Black Diamond blasting grit.


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## DogFish

Hoppy looks nice. I think you are correct the crypts might not be getting enough light.


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## DogFish

The Mattenfilter in my Aquaponic sump:















































Grow Bed


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## driftwoodhunter

I'm so glad to see you here & trying the HMF! I didn't realize you'd put one in any of your tanks. I am completely hooked on them - I'll have one in all my tanks from here on out. Any info on this tank? How long ago did you put in your filter? I love the look of the plants growing out in the porcelain cups - this really is how I should house the plants I get while I'm waiting to set up new tanks...so much nicer than a small dirted grow-out tank where the roots get entangled with each other. What a mess.

I think we need a HMF club, too...lol


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## DogFish

Cindy - More on this one, Go to my "Aquaponics for Vegans" link on my sig. line. I wanted to stay on the Mattenfilter topic.

Yes, I like the HMF a lot. I've been considering moving my old 10gl into a new 20L. If I do I'll be using a HMF


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## Razorworm

driftwoodhunter said:


> I'm so glad to see you here & trying the HMF! I didn't realize you'd put one in any of your tanks. I am completely hooked on them - I'll have one in all my tanks from here on out. Any info on this tank? How long ago did you put in your filter? I love the look of the plants growing out in the porcelain cups - this really is how I should house the plants I get while I'm waiting to set up new tanks...so much nicer than a small dirted grow-out tank where the roots get entangled with each other. What a mess.
> 
> I think we need a HMF club, too...lol


I have 5 - 20b's and 1- 40b tanks all for plant grow out and "experiments". All are set up with HMFs accross the sides with jet lifters ( 2 on the 40 ), Heaters behind the HMFs as well. All are on an auto water change system. The 40 has a group of Otos, one of the 20s has a growing population of Cherry Shrimp and one has a pair of Dwarf Crayfish ( hoping to breed). All of my plants are in pots as well. This is a great way to see what grows in different substraits etc. Since almost all are dirt or a varient, it makes maintence and replanting super easy. The HMFs keep the water clean and super stable, granted the bio load is low. I wil post pics soon.


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## driftwoodhunter

Razorworm, I can't wait to see - I love seeing and reading about other HMF.


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## driftwoodhunter

Just a quickie update on my tank - I'm loving the HMF so much, I'm getting ready to order more Poret from Swiss Tropicals so I can start setting up a 55g tank. 

Things have changed a bit in my tank - yesterday I added a few plants I got in a wonderful RAOK, including some huge crinums. The fish love them! Yesterday the Buenos Aires were swimming through them like possessed maniacs, today the fish have settled down and mostly the Columbians are in it as well as one adventurous Blue Tetra. The Buenos are still in it constantly but they are calmer now. It's interesting to me because they've never shown an interest in that side of the tank before. I planted the crinum close to the filter - combined with the java fern it helps the HMF recede into the background.










Thank you sewingalot for starting this fascinating thread. I had never heard of the HMF before, and it has transformed my tank. I would call my tank very moderately planted - I could easy double or triple my plants and I will as funds allow, but in the meantime the HMF has helped keep my tank pristine. I have 10 Buenos Aires, 18 Columbians, 5 Blue tetras, 5 Black Neons, 4 Harlequins and 1 green cory. I (being so forgetful and lazy) haven't checked my water since August. No water changes, just topping off. I tested my water last week and did a small w/c for good measure while I was topping off. Prior to the top off and w/c, the readings were ammonia = 0, nitrites = 0, and nitrates = 20. Without the HMF, I'm sure I would have had a major problem...now I just have to get with it and be more vigilant! (and yes, I have a ton of snails! I adore them, and I'm trying to get a huge increase for my other tanks, including 4 tanks I'll be setting up this winter - lol)


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## Razorworm

Hey Driftwood
I am going to a swap tommorow and Stephan Tanner from Swiss Tropicals will have a table there. I am looking forward to meeting him and picking up some more Poret foam and jet lifters for upcomming projects.


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## driftwoodhunter

When I ordered my Poret for the 125, it was the first (and so far, only) time I've talked to him - I had many questions about which pose size, foam thickness, etc. He was so helpful and always responded within minutes (I was emailing him). I was never pressured to buy anything, he was wonderful.


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## DogFish

Razorworm said:


> ....
> I am going to a swap tommorow and Stephan Tanner from Swiss Tropicals will have a table there.....


Is he local (ChicagoLand)? Sure would be nice to have a local pick-up option. I wish I was able to get the the Swap this time. Have fun.


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## deeda

I'm pretty sure Stephan recently moved to Minnesota from Columbus. He has been known to pop up at various big events in the U.S. and also at local fish clubs as a speaker and always brings Poret with him.

He just updated his website to reflect his new location and where he will be visiting. I've got to go check it out!!!


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## jccaclimber

deeda said:


> I'm pretty sure Stephan recently moved to Minnesota from Columbus. He has been known to pop up at various big events in the U.S. and also at local fish clubs as a speaker and always brings Poret with him.
> 
> He just updated his website to reflect his new location and where he will be visiting. I've got to go check it out!!!


Correct.


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## Razorworm

DogFish said:


> Is he local (ChicagoLand)? Sure would be nice to have a local pick-up option. I wish I was able to get the the Swap this time. Have fun.


pm sent


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## driftwoodhunter

So happy! Took advantage of Petco's holiday sales event and ordered four Koralia Nano 425s for two tanks I'm setting up this winter. Saved a bundle! I have to work a 12hr shift at Walmart staring tonight at 7pm, so I have to get back to bed, lol, but ordering the Poret is next, as soon as he's back from the show/holiday - yea!
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


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## Itwasntme

Heres couple of pics of my new tanks HMF-solution. The tank is 150g, as you can see, the HMF is quite small and doesnt take much room in the corner. There runs a spraybar behind plants so you can`t see the bar when looking aquarium normally. The filter is totally unseen behind bushes.


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## GeToChKn

I ran into a problem with my active substrate, so decided to redo my tank and use a HMF. Here's a start of it.


So my Netlea (Similar to ADA) soil, after absorbing all kinds of things from the tank, has decided to start releasing them, so it's time to get rid of it. It's the problem with any active substrate. They have a high CEC and can store things from the water and release them when full. They can also run out of whatever they use to lower the pH. Either way, they do have a lifespan, especially what we want from the soil for shrimp. I am going to reuse it for my planted tank though after a rinse, let it suck up the nutrients I dose and from root tabs.

Mine seems to be loaded with Nitrates and Phosphates. I got algae growing over sponge filters, walls, plants, sponge intakes, rocks, everything. I've taken soil out of the tank, into a container with fresh water, 20-40ppm nitrates within 24 hours. The soil's cap-put.

So I came up with a Hamburg matten filter for my filtration. The tank is a 20gal tank. I'm going to use a bit of inert gravel but leave a big portion of the tank bare bottom for easy cleanup, etc. I am going to use Ebi-ken Sosei, which is a product to lower the pH of your RO water by adding an organic dis solvable fluvic acid that can be added to your RO for water changes and will drop the pH to a acidic range without affect other param's. 

Here's the sponge with a dry fit with some supports to hold the sponge in place.










Support rails painted black with Kyrlon paint and siliconed into place.










My helper 












The idea behind a Hamburg Matten filter is that you put a powerhead or airdriven lift tube behind the sponge, and expelling water out of the area back into the area in front. This forces water to be pulled through the giant wall of sponge. This provides filtration, huge area for biofilm for shrimp, and very low maintenance as the sponge can go sometimes a year or two without being removed and cleaned. The bonus is shrimp love sponges for munching, so bonus for them. Some people even get a bit of moss growing and creeping up the sponge to create a moss wall.

Here's a pic of how the HMF works. 










So far I haven't lost any shrimp from the Nitrate/Phosphate dumping but babies sure aren't there like they should. No amount of water changes was able to get rid of it, so I'll see how this method works.

Here's the dry fit for the substrate divider. It's a plastic PVC based compound called Celuka. It's basically the same stuff they use for PVC pipes that's heated and then filled with tiny micro air bubbles then compressed to give a very hard, PVC "wood" that comes in 1x6 and 2x4 and all the standard lumber sizes. It can be cut with a chop shop and comes out with a super smooth edge without sanding, can be drilled, painted, just like wood but just pure PVC. I've used it for turtle docks, crayfish homes, all kinds of things in tanks before and since it's just PVC, just heated with air and no additives, it's safe for tanks like PVC is. I'm going to paint it black and silicone it in so the front part of the tank is bare and can be used for feeding and easy cleanup and the gravel will be contained against the sponge, so it will seal the bottom of the sponge to stop shrimp from crawling under, and act like a UGF and pull crap out of the substrate towards the sponge. 










I was also reading Frank say that basically inert soils but ones with a high CEC (He was referring to Akadama) will absorb some of the fluvic acid from the Sosei and release it, thus helping stabilize the ph of water over time as small amounts will be retained and released by the soil. Another reason I choose Flourite black for my substrate.


The other thing with the HMF is you can hide your heater, CO2 difussor, whatever behind the sponge. 

Here's the divider glued in and painted.










Painted the bottom of the tank black










I have a fluval 2 internal filter, so I can stuff it with purigen or floss or whatever I want to get a bit of different filtration in there besides the jumbo sponge wall.

Here it is connected to my output that will sit above the water line to get lots of surface movement and O2 exchange. The water rushes through all the holes and slams against them and that should increase O2 content as well as it's creating movement of the return water.











I got some Sosei ordered and should have it in by Tuesday, so I'll see how that works for lowering the pH. I got lots of stuff to load up the tank quickly with biofilm, so it shouldn't take long before I can add some low grades and see how they like it. I think I'd be happy with 6.5pH water for them instead of the 5pH Netlea gives me. Snails don't last long in the low pH, some plants don't like it and as Randy said in another post, it is rather acidic at that pH.


I'm moving in about a year and plan on building a nice shrimp breeding rack, so this is also a test to see if I can get them breeding without active substrate, giant filter wall that doesn't need to be changed or cleaned and something I can add to the water to lower the pH some what. I don't want a rack of 20 tanks with active substrate that need to be replaced, canister filters that need cleaning, etc. Very costly and time consuming to maintain 20 tanks like that. Much easier to have mostly bare bottom tanks, mostly air driven, very little cleaning time, etc.


Thread in the shrimp forum that I'll be keep fairly up to date about the whole procedure.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=200561


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## driftwoodhunter

Nice! So glad to see you added this to this thread. I think it would be great to see everyone's HMF located in one thread to make it easier to learn from all of them.


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## DogFish

On Cleaning ~

I've read several people post that some "europeans" are claiming these filters can go years without cleaning? I'm not buying into that after cleaning my Aquaponic sump/Goldfish tank.

You would not believe how nasty 4 - 2" bodied Orandas in 40gls. could make a Matten Filter in 60days. My 1st rinse water was yellow-brown and you could not see the white bottom of the plastic bucket. It took 7 rinses, each time with 3 fresh gallons of tank water. After seeing that water, I would be very suspect any Mattenfilter could go years without cleaning even if it was a shrimp tank.

Don't get me wrong I think these are great filters in some applications. I'm considering moving my 10 to a 20L and I'll use a MF in that tank.


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## Diana

I suspect there are several things going on that may reduce the cleaning needed, but I have not used them long enough to be sure. 

1) Large surface area means the debris is spread out, not concentrated to the point of slowing the water flow through the media. 
2) Wide spread means better available oxygen for the decomposers to work faster. The debris that does get trapped is broken down faster than in a filter that is slowing down because of clogging with debris. Wide spread means slower water flow per cubic inch of media, so the decomposers are not getting blasted and injured by too fast water movement. I think there is an optimum range of water flow for the microorganisms and Mattenfilters seem to hit that range really well. Fast enough for good oxygen, not too fast. 
3) I do remember reading that cleaning these is done by siphon or vacuuming the surface without removing the media from the tank. This can be done with every water change. Perhaps the 'years between cleaning' means the media is not removed from the tank for cleaning very often, though it may be vacuumed in place more frequently.
4) I am sure the volume of media, the water flow and the bio load need to be balanced to achieve the lower maintenance needs. 
Maybe you need more filter media to handle the waste from 4 Golds. 

I can easily believe how filthy Golds can be. I once had to house a dozen 4"-6" Golds inside while the leaks in my pond were found and fixed. Daily water changes were not enough. We never saw the Golds after the first day!


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## DogFish

Diana said:


> ....
> 3) I do remember reading that cleaning these is done by siphon or vacuuming the surface without removing the media from the tank. This can be done with every water change. Perhaps the 'years between cleaning' means the media is not removed from the tank for cleaning very often, though it may be vacuumed in place more frequently.....


:hihi:
In my world cleaning is cleaning, while I believe in Santa Clause, I don't believe things are 1/2 clean, we either clean the filter or we don't clean the filter. :icon_mrgr

Maybe these claims attributed to unknown europeans are being taken out of context or maybe they were a bit exaggerated. 




Diana said:


> 4) I am sure the volume of media, the water flow and the bio load need to be balanced to achieve the lower maintenance needs.
> Maybe you need more filter media to handle the waste from 4 Golds.


I agree with the engineering concepts of mass x flows bio-load. Im my 40gl. tank, I have a 18x18x2.75" MF. I run a aquaball power head constantly and a 600gph pump cycles 10gl of water 7xs a day throughout the grow bed that also acts as a filter. Feeding is 3-4xs a day all food it eaten immediately, none falls to the bottom.

There are only 4 - small goldfish in the tank. I can not believe I'm under filtered. 

Again I'm impressed with the MF. The amount of waste it collects is amazing.


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## Hoppy

I have re-setup my Hamburger mattenfilter tank, 65 gallons. I removed the substrate, did a better job of blocking flow under the filter sponge, added ADA Aquasoil, 2/3 of which is a mix of mostly Africana, and the top 1/3 is Amazonia. I got the mix after it had a couple of weeks in someone else's aquarium, and the top third is a new bag of Amazonia. For the past 2 weeks I have been monitoring the ammonia leaching from the soil, and today finally finished planting it. Here is how it looks now:




























As you can see, most of the substrate is a "carpet" of Sagitaria subulata, with a small amount of Crypt retrospiralis and Anubias nana, plus one plant of Crypt. pontideriifolia. I wanted mostly open swimming space for the fish, and I wanted to experiment with the Dwarf Sags. I haven't settled on what fish to use yet, but that has to wait for the ammonia leaching to stop and the tank to cycle - no nitrites yet.


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## scotty b

i had a matten filter on a 40 breeder and loved it,. the filter worked well and the parameters where never off


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## Hoppy

You can see that one problem I had was in cleaning the filter sponge. I soaked it in an Excel/water mix, used a water hose on it, scrubbed it with my hands, pounded on it, let it dry in the sun, soaked it again and repeated trying to scrub it. And, it still has dead BBA on the surface, plus bits of sand in some pores. I'm hoping when I add fish they will help pick off the bits of dead algae.

I had this in operation for a year, with no cleaning, so it was pretty well loaded when I started. Lots of fine brown silt, much of which was probably the bacteria colony that had grown. Now it has to cycle all over again.


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## oliverpool

Just finished the whole thread. Great read and thanks all who updated this thread with their updates and experience. I would like to test this on my upcoming tank and my existing outdoor "pond".

However, I still do not understand how to calculate what pump size I require even after reading the article many times and trying to work it out in a spreadsheet. The equations just do not add up. Do I determine the pump turnover rate or liters/m or the surface area of the filter first? I need to at least determine one of this first right?

I know the best flow rate would be 7.5cm /m through the filter. The pump turnover rate should be as close to 2 times as well. Considering I would like to do this via a side Matten filter instead of corner, Should I take the surface area of the filter as a start? Appreciate any inputs.

Basically Lets say my outdoor tank which is around 120cm x 50cm x 50cm around 300 liters or 77 gallons. My intention would be a side filter of 50x50 so surface area of 2500. I understand from Swisstropical that a 3" thickness would be better to prevent it from collapsing on itself when it starts to get dirty (Not sure if this matter in any calculation) I can use a pump anywhere from 150 liters/m to 800 liters/m. So how do I calculate the pump size relative to what I have as fixed?


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## lochaber

I haven't been keeping up with this thread, but I thought the ideal flow rate was somewhere around 2.5-5cm/minute.

using that, you would want a pump rate of between 6250 and 12500 ml/minute.

approximately 375-750 litres/hour, or 100-200 gallons/hour (very rough estimate)


using those numbers, you could go for a pump right in the middle, at about 150gph, and get ~2 turnovers hour.


That's if you decide you want to use a set area of mattenfilter. If you wanted to use a given pump size, you would have to calculate for that (convert pump rate to ml/minute, and then find a way to get the surface area that would give you the 2.5-5 cm/minute). If you wanted a higher flow rate, you could try a semi-circle shaped mattenfilter on the end, or maybe an angled one to give you more surface area.


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## oliverpool

Thanks lochaber.

I found another site that explains it more clearly. I believe the main important item is that the flow through the filter should be between 5-10cm/ min. As such, after determining the area required, you may have to work backwards to change the pump water flow in order to achieve this target. 


Example given :- 

So, how big must the filter be, and how do we decide the dimensions?

That depends on a number of factors including:

1. Water turnover per hour
2. Flow-rate
3. Volume of the tank

To achieve effective biological filtration the following parameters have proven themselves as most efficient.

- The water turnover should be between 2 and 3 times the tank volume per hour.
- The flow-rate should be between 5 and 10 cm per minute.

The maths

For our example let’s take a standard 160 l tank (100 x 40 x 40 cm) and as the golden medium a turnover of 2.5 x volume/hour and flow-rate of 7.5 cm/minute. We have a 160 l tank and 400 l/h pump, but how do we achieve the correct flow-rate?

Flow-rate refers to how much water flows through a filter sponge of given surface area (taken as a cross-section, i.e., sponge depth x sponge height) within a certain amount of time. There is of course a formula for this:

Cross-section [A] = Volume [Q] x Water turnover [n] x 1000 / (Flow rate [V] x 60)

in our example:

A = 160 x 2.5 x 1000 / 7.5 x 60 = 400 000 / 450 = 888.88 cm² ≈ 890 cm²

Since the height of the tank is a fixed we simply divide this result by 40 (tank height in cm) to calculate the width of the piece of sponge we need, i.e., 890 cm² / 40 cm = 22.25 cm, ≈ 22.5 cm. Therefore we cut out a piece of sponge measuring 40 x 22.5 cm.


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## Hoppy

Just a progress report. The mattenfilter continues to work great - clear water, healthy fish and plants, and no maintenance required, except perhaps once a year. The tank now has a "carpet" of Sagittaria subulata, 3 Crypt. retrospiralis, some Anubias nana, and, just added, a small grove of Myriophyllum mattogrossense. Those are all growing well. I also have a Crypt. pontideriifolia, which is struggling, but alive, but not yet a presence in the aquascape. The fish are 12 Odessa barbs, 8 Lemon tetra, and 6 Otocinclus catfish. All have survived since they were added in February, and all look healthy. 

I'm really impressed by the Hamburger Mattenfilter for a low light, low maintenance tank.


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## JoeandCarrie

wow. after 4 days of reading this thread and all the links contained in it, my head hurts.

I wish there was a magic formula/calculator to figure the math for the power head. Perhaps one of you with exp in this can answer though.

I am setting up a 40B shrimp (Pumpkins) tank for the wife, it will be 1-2" of black diamond, loads of mosses/fissidens. The Current Satelite LED+ 36" sitting on the glass. 

According to the reading, and swiss tropicals, for an end piece I would need a 19.5"x19.5" piece. I would like to build an acrylic box to hold it against the back wall and attach a spray bar on one end to the out put of the powerhead. My problem is the sizing of the powerhead vs the 3" thick poret.

Any help on this/ideas would be fantastic. If it fails, I will be doing the DIY canister UGF. Just trying to avoid another canister to clean...

Thanks,

-Joe


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## astex

I have one on my 2-40B set up, the 19.5x19.5 and just run it off an air pump. So far so good. There is good mulm build up and the flow is surprisingly good across the top of the tank.

I think as long as your power head doesn't exceed the 2.5x tank volume through the filter, you should be fine. If you want extra water movement in the tank beyond that, you may be better just having an extra power head in the main section of the tank to move the water around.


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## JoeandCarrie

So you are just using an air stone? swiss tropicals sells the jet lifters with the foam, had thought of using that, but they are kind of just chinsy pvc tubes that my wife could craft up for less than 12$. would like more flow for keeping the fissidens/moss clear as well. may get two power heads and just slow the one in the main tank a bit. 

So 2.5 x tank volume is what Ishould aim for? math and I dont get along well so 2.5 x 40 = 100? pretty sure thats right. well will hit up the store and add two of those to the cart...

thanks 
-joe


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## astex

Yeah, I bought the jet lifters for convenience, but they really are just nice PVC (a bit thinner than your average PVC though). I think the key is that they turn and poke through the foam wall. I'm thinking a small desk-fountain type pump for behind the foam (if you don't want to do the air powered) and then a circulation outside would work for you. Good luck!


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## Hoppy

According to the Hamburg group that developed the Mattenfilter, you need 5-10 cm per min flow velocity through the filter for optimum bio filtration. That translates to about 3-6 gallons per minute flow rate from the filter. So look for a powerhead or pump that produces that. (If they are listed in gallons per hour, that would be 300 to 600 gallons per hour.)


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## DogFish

In my 40gl tank I have a 2.5" Foam. I'm using a 600GPH pump to run water out of the tank into my Growbed (which also acts as a filter) I also have a 100gph Ehien Aqua ball recirculating the water in the tank through the filter.

The water is pristine even housing Oranda Goldfish.


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## JoeandCarrie

Awesome info, will add a 400ish then and see if I need more after. Thanks guys
-joe


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## Saxtonhill

Interested in the good info on combating the BBA. Thanks!


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## JoeandCarrie

One more question on this filter setup. I would like to immitate that corner mount that Hoppy posted. Is that too much flow for shrimp like that or is the spray bar the better way to go to be able to reduce the current? 

I am torn between corner mount, back, and the end positions. Want to make sure that the current keeps the mosses clear, but not blowing the shrimp around like debris. 

Thoughts?


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## JoeandCarrie

Bumpity bump


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## oliverpool

I have one side mounted unit which I have tried running at 2 to 4 times water turnover. I believe as long as your outlet it high up from just below to at the water level, the flow in the tank is not going to be really bad. Most hob or canister filter are going to be much much stronger. Get a adjustable water pump so that you can adjust the flow between 2-4 times your requirement and you should be fine, The suction on the sponge is also going to be so weak that I doubt any young shrimp is going to be stuck on the sponge from the suction power due to the large surface area.


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## dprais1

astex said:


> Yeah, I bought the jet lifters for convenience, but they really are just nice PVC (a bit thinner than your average PVC though). I think the key is that they turn and poke through the foam wall. I'm thinking a small desk-fountain type pump for behind the foam (if you don't want to do the air powered) and then a circulation outside would work for you. Good luck!


I believe the advantage of the jetlifter is that it uses curved part rather than a 90 degree elbow to maximize flow. not that you couldn't do it yourself....


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## JoeandCarrie

It really comes down to placement for me. I can follow hoppy and sewingings instructions for drilling holes slowly to get the flow levels I want, but was curious how the single tube flow rate was.

I bought a non adjustable rio 450 based on recomendations, so I think the bar is my method of choice now. 

Now I just gotta decide on end of tank with spray bar above, or corner with spraybar on the end. I have a beautiful chunk of dw I am soaking, but it takes up alot of space so may have to trim it to fit, just dont know how much room this filter will take. Still waiting on the poret to show up... must be pony express...


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## waterfaller1

plantbrain said:


> Sumps stink for shrimp since they get in there and into the overflows.


Not if you use a filter sock. I can't tell you how many times I have fished my kuhli loaches from the sock in the sump until they were too big to slide through the grooves in the overflow.:icon_mrgr


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## JoeandCarrie

Ok, stand built, check
Poret and pump on workbench check.
Coffee with extra um.. flavor check.
How to put this dang foam in the tank...

How did you folks keeping shrimp with these, keep shrimp from entering "over" the foam? 

Think I will hold off one more work trip to do this part and draw up ideas.. darned wood is not sinking still...

Any artisans that wanna share some sketch ideas of how to "contain" the foam, please do.

Gonna pick up some acrylic and pvc this afternoon hopefully


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## somewhatshocked

Actually think all of those questions were addressed in this thread.

There are several photos and explanations about how to contain the foam.


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## BeastMaster

Here's my version of the Mattenfilter for a DBP "5B" 3.2gal tank. I didn't want to sacrifice space for an internal filter and I had all this extra glass (4 dividers & top) so, I built a glass sump and used a Rio+ 90 powerhead to create flow. The flow is directed by Fischer Chem 9mm lily pipes and (3) Fluval foam pads were used as filtering media. As an added touch, I placed a few Hemianthus glomeratus cuttings inbetween the foam pads at the surface to experiment with emergent growth.


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## JoeandCarrie

Yeah, there are alot of posts about the sides, for bending it for corners and such, and Hoppy showed his cool stand to keep the sand from going under it, but nothing addresses the over the top portion.

Thanks for the idea on the add on, unfortunately the stand is built already and I am limited to in tank design now.

Think I'll just try my hand at the acrylic and see what i can come up with. Will take some pics to add though.


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## astex

My tank has glass tops, so I just cut another piece of foam, put it on top of the filter foam and it smishes up against the glass. It's not pretty but it works. When I take down these tanks (temp only) and re-set them up again I'll probably do something similar and/or get a strip of acrylic along the top to serve the same function.


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## JoeandCarrie

thats kinda what I am thinking. Gonna play with some really thin plexi sheets and see what I can come up with. Will take some pics for the progress.

thanks for the ideas


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## newbieplanter

Pretty neat idea here
Saw it on u tube but never thought it can be used for a planted.


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## harsaphes

Great idea. I can't wait to use this on a tank. 
Also the link mentioned in the beginning of the thread has great info.
http://www.angelsplus.com/Filters.htm


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