# ECO or dirt???



## spifff (Jan 8, 2012)

hey all i introduced my self in the lounge so i'll cut the chase i'm changing my 55 over to a low tech tank, i have tahitian moon sand that i want to put back in as a cap, i used ECO complete in my 10 gallon during my first venture into planted and it was ok, but i've been reading about the dirt base and liking it more at this point sort of more bang for the buck so what should i start with?
question two
i know there's a separate lighting section here but i figured since i started this thread i may as well ask i have standard lights right now that came in the walmart starter kit when i bought the tank 8 years ago never even changed the bulbs but i'm thinking even for a low light tank that would'nt do the job so i'm looking at a standard perfecto twin strip light with with regular plant and aquarium bulbs from walmart. opinions?
sorry for being so long winded.
Dave


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## mallardman12 (Oct 29, 2011)

Try dirt you won't regret it, if you do it right. Check my thread out for some ideas. I just set mine up! http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals/162152-mallards-45-gallon-dirt-tank-new.html


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## Hawkian (Apr 14, 2010)

I agree with the dirt idea. As for the lights, what kind of "standard" lights do you have in there? Incandescent? Fluorescent? What wattage? You may be able to simply replace the bulbs if they are fluorescent or replace the bulbs with CF bulbs if your hood is incandescent. Or you can replace the entire hood if you want to spend more money


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## ktownhero (Mar 21, 2011)

I asked myself the same question when I started my 29g and only used Eco-Complete. A year later, I wish I had just taken the time to do a dirt setup. Eco-Complete is a nice looking substrate, but I'm not convinced it's really all that great otherwise. Dirt will provide a solid nutrient base and a haven for roots to grow... Eco Complete really does neither. 

Don't get me wrong, I like my EC... But if I did it again, I would go with dirt and a top layer of EC (or something else, to suit your visual picture).


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

My only complaint with dirt is that in my case the water is never crystal clear. It always has the yellowish hue. Also I have to keep filling in the spots where the sand cap gets thin else the sub gets loose and causes a tea colored mess.


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## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

+1 for dirt. Growing plants was never easier than when using real soil.


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## PaulG (Oct 10, 2010)

jsuereth said:


> +1 for dirt. Growing plants was never easier than when using real soil.


Seconded.


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## picotank (Dec 6, 2011)

MGOM is the way to go for me.. Not even two months in and my plants are all doing great! Was real cloudy for several weeks and did lots of WC till the tank cycled. My only fear is when I have to move to another house it will be a mess and I will have to start over since I see no way around not having the sand cap move around and letting the soil underneath come up. If this is the case I will go with another substrate since I will not EVER be buying another house...(Was WAY To hard to get rid of the last one without loosing my shorts last year).


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## spifff (Jan 8, 2012)

pictank you bring a good point up we are moving in the next 7 months or so at least it looks that way i've moved my tanks and fish from state to state twice before i was actually thinking about covering the substrate in the 55 with plastic or something so it don't move too much, worse case would be new dirt and cap. since thr tank will already be empty it won't be that big of deal. i think i'm going dirt!
thanks 
dave


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

You will not regret dirt. If you have any questions, I have a link to the Fraternity Of Dirt in my signature. Lot's of members there that can help you out. As for the EcoComplete. It is good for plants that are not heavy root feeders. Stem plants do well in it, but Crypts not so much. I have it in one of my tanks, and can't wait to change it out. I don't think I will ever do another tank without dirt or Aquasoil. Best substrates you can use in my opinion. As for moving the tank. If you drain it enough for the move you should be ok with the dirt and sand substrate. Just make sure you take all the fish out and keep the plants from drying out. Hope this helps you out.


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## spifff (Jan 8, 2012)

Dirt it is then! the fish and plants will be going to a friend of mine who fish sits during the move.
I think i'm gonna start a journal in about 3 weeks when i start the tank!
Dave


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

spifff said:


> Dirt it is then! the fish and plants will be going to a friend of mine who fish sits during the move.
> I think i'm gonna start a journal in about 3 weeks when i start the tank!
> Dave


I will keep my eyes open for it.:thumbsup:


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

I've got 3 tanks with plain top soil from the big box store. All 3 are doing great.


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## meowfish (Jan 5, 2011)

picotank said:


> Was WAY To hard to get rid of the last one without loosing my shorts


Hmm... Lots of folks losing their shirts, but few losing their shorts - it must have been bad!


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## picotank (Dec 6, 2011)

meowfish said:


> Hmm... Lots of folks losing their shirts, but few losing their shorts - it must have been bad!


*Without* losing my shorts was the key word here....lol
It took 9 months to sell and I made a few bucks but it was touch and go there for awhile:icon_wink Never again>>>>


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## meowfish (Jan 5, 2011)

Ah, ok lol. Glad you got it sold and kept your shorts then!


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## picotank (Dec 6, 2011)

meowfish said:


> Ah, ok lol. Glad you got it sold and kept your shorts then!


Yup, I kept my shorts but gave em the furniture :biggrin:


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## Silock (Feb 10, 2012)

How do you keep the water from clouding up after adding soil? My first attempt at using soil was terrible. Nothing would settle to the bottom, and water changes just kept stirring stuff up. I eventually scrapped that idea and just went with black sand.

My next tank, I was thinking about using Fluorite and then sand over the top.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*Clone post*

Enriched substrates. I post this information often answering questions about soil tanks because I have a few of them and like the results. 

Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil has cow manure listed on all the bags I've seen. Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix (exact wording on the label) has chicken waste added in the mix and has less tendency to spike parameters when first submerged. I use this product because even though it varies on the contents found in the bag it's been consistent enough I trust repeated good results. The potting mix is claimed to be 0.10 - 0.05 - 0.05 so the ratio is low but fairly balanced. Currently I have been setting up tanks with it for 3yrs. 

To you're question/comments on sub and lighting I've have done exactly what you are thinking about more than once. Placing up to a 2" layer of soil under the cap works very well for me. A 2" layer of Eco Complete should hold it down fine as a capping material. Another option would be to use it (Eco) and add some coal slag blasting media as a filler with the Eco to help close gaps in the capping material and keep a black appearance. Using a mixture of Black Beauty and Eco 1.5" held the lighter organics of the potting mix great here. Even thinner on the cap will work using sand size grained materials. 1" holds very well in my experience. The mixed size of the Eco Complete I have handled 2" would be my minimum capping thickness.

Tank balance.
No matter what you put in a tank be it too much or too little without light energy plants don't grow. Extremely high nutrient levels won't cause algae to grow. But intense light without all nutrients at good levels will. Even non injected at medium/low light energy lacking a macro or micro algae will grow and higher plants fail. Following many threads algae in a planted aquarium is caused by imbalance. All planted aquariums are limited by one factor or another and always out of balance one way or another so it's a tricky answer to find.
Light (imo) is easiest to control. Floaters filter the water column removing excess NPK and can greatly help controlling light rather than changing photo period as another option. Good growth both in rooted plants and emerged without dosing the water column for 3 years is my greatest success to date. Water column dosing of trace/Fe with a soil substrate seems to benefit my tanks the most.

Low and medium light with a potting mix base like I'm discussing using phosphate and nitrate on weekly parameter checks will be zero or a static value most of the time without additions. Recorded periods of over 2 months without change on tanks following the Walstad outlined method. TDS showed a gradual increase but other readings remained static. Even with no PO4 or NO3 tested in the water column plant growth was good and little or no algae in these tanks.

Reading the opinions on algae issues I find them all across the extremes. Lacking phosphate causes GSA. Shortage of nitrate or CO2 swings are blamed for BBA outbreaks. High organic content (DOC) is blamed by many yet the Walstad outlined method can be followed and adjusted to great success. Growth of plants always has a limiting factor based on what I've read. What I have seen succeed here is what I'll post. If it works here I'll repeat it in a post once I've tried it seeing results.

All my new tank starts now include floaters. Added starting out many are cleared completely after a few months.
With my belief that light energy is easiest to understand and adjust without changing the tank in any major way. Great at filtering the water too goes almost without saying. Ricca, Frogbit, Moss or Subwassertang, Salvinia cheap easy plants with great value (imo).

Low tech having a number of soil based tanks all containing a high percentage of organics adding macro nutrients (NPK) to the water is only done at start up and water changes. Trace is more liberally applied.

Higher lighting levels and CO2 injected I'll hold a parameter range in the water tests. PO4 is what bottoms out on my tanks when things shift almost every time.

Flourite, Eco Complete and gravel mixes release to the water more during the first few months. Using sand or a mixture of sand and frag my water parameter always test a lower nutrient content.
I don't care for traditional river gravel very much as it doesn't produce a very good boundary layer.

I have included some clays a couple times now to increase Fe and used the additions listed for mixing when setting up MTS tanks.
That said having a tank set up with dirt alone MGOCPM and nothing else for over a year I saw nothing to indicate the plants were lacking any nutrient at all and growth never stumbled. Beyond 3yrs. now and still no additives or changes made. Growth has slowed but the tank is still stable and growing plants.

still here, flooded 4/30/2009 still growing plants.
No changes made, no daily or even weekly ferts, no root tabs ticktock ticktock










hope my thoughts posted here make some sense LOL.
I'm sold on using soils containing organics when it comes to planted tanks. 

*Clone post #2 Just posted this in another thread on similar topic.*

The black blasting media I used in this tank is no different really than sand except the color. Both are small grain and inert.

I have several tanks done with it and this one is the simplest thread description on any of my setups. 

1 day change over. Switched from an established 20L to a new 29g tank. 
Flora and fauna same day. 7/17/2011
Marineland 280 HOB, single t8 15w bulb. (very low light)

There are a minimum of risks doing it but risks none the less. Growth is extremely slow due to the extremely low light energy provided. 
(Plant types are limited without more light.) 
But adding more light can complicate things if keeping it simple is the goal and it was for me on this tank. I wanted a tank I could just walk by and feed the fish.

3 - 5g buckets were used and I kept all the things from the original set up wet in those buckets making the change. Every surface in the tank will hold bio film so I protected it and transferred that to the new tank.
The filter was dirty with 2 weeks use since the last cleaning.
Emptying the 20L I saved about 14g of tank water.










I placed a barrier ring of the black blasting media around the sides and front edge of the tank then added 1 1/2" of mud pudding. Setting up the tank dry is easily done also with less mess. Press the palm of your hand down firmly on the soil then gauge the depth of the layer. I recommend staying at 2" or less on the soil thickness.










Capped the dirt with 1 to 1.5" of capping material then added about 4" of water to the tank from the buckets and planted it. Followed with all the water remaining in my buckets except for enough to hold the fish. Topped off the tank with new water, matched temperature to the bucket and transferred the fish back in. 
2 adult angels, 2 albino cory, 2 LFBN.


































7/22/2011 I did a 50% WC to reduce tannins released by the soil.
8/22/2011 another 50% WC to reduce tannins. Never saw NO2 or NH3/NH4 on a water test. The filter was cleaned for the first time after this water change.

Pictures taken for the last thread update and the tank has never been trimmed. Growth is very slow but the plants are healthy.


















Plants included are Java Fern, Java Moss, Subwassertang, various Crypts and anubias. I do not fertilize this tank in any way.
Dwarf sag would do very well also but I didn't want it in this tank.

Sand capping is not a problem. Setting up a tank wrong is.
Tanking this way the tank water WILL stain with tannins being released but water changes handle that easy enough and tannins aren't a bad thing.


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## frrok (May 22, 2011)

wkndracer said:


> Enriched substrates. I post this information often answering questions about soil tanks because I have a few of them and like the results.
> 
> Miracle Grow Organic Potting Soil has cow manure listed on all the bags I've seen. Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix (exact wording on the label) has chicken waste added in the mix and has less tendency to spike parameters when first submerged. I use this product because even though it varies on the contents found in the bag it's been consistent enough I trust repeated good results. The potting mix is claimed to be 0.10 - 0.05 - 0.05 so the ratio is low but fairly balanced. Currently I have been setting up tanks with it for 3yrs.
> 
> ...


Those crypts with the angels look epic!
Excellent write up as always.


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