# White cloud mountain minnows: fast current, or slow?



## shane3fan (Nov 2, 2009)

Ive got 5 WCMMs in a 29 gal community tank. It has a Fluval 205, a Penguin 150 HOB and a Hydor pico powerhead ( 160 gph ). Ive seen the WCMMs using the powerhead stream as a treadmill many times-lol. I cant say for certain that they would like flow like what you are going to have, but they dont mind some water movement. My Neon tetras dont like the flow at all.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Thatnks, shane3fan! That's just the info I was looking for. I doubt anyone on this forum has put them in a tank like what I'm planning, but I'm sure some have put them in high flow tanks.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

While they like flow, you should make sure they also have areas of "normal" flow to get out of the "high" flow and rest.

There's a scale to everything, and while they don't hate fast current, they will not handle as much as say Hillstream loaches.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes, that makes sense. Hillstream loaches literally climb waterfalls haha. I'm definitely going to be leaving some places of shelter in the rocks to make sure that I'm not wearing my fish to death. If they seem stressed, it's easy enough to throttle the flow down with the knob.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Hey CL,

You have tweaked my curiousity. Will your new tank have all the flow in one direction, ie a stream biotype?

I have always thought a big, long tank with a predominate grass plant bent over by the current with a sandy/rocky foreground would be cool.

The link below has pictures of the Rio Sucuri in the Panatal. Great pictures. It even has a list of native plants and the water parameters including CO2 levels, kH, gH, etc.
http://www.aquamazon.com.br/?area=expedicoes_rio_sucuri


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Wow. Incredible site! These swords are amazing








The flow will be coming from a powerhead that pulses from 200 to 1600 GPH, so there will be a bit of a sloshing effect, like you might experience in a near rapids environment, where water is flowing in every direction because of the rocks. These are several modes, and the powerhead can be turned down so the fish won't be blown out of the water.

Does anyone have any ideas about aeration? I saw a tank that gabezone had a while back that had some kind of a nozzle on the outflow of his canister filter that made some really fine bubbles, which would be awesome. Does anybody know where I could buy something similar?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Not sure how your plumbing will be set up but I have a 1/2 inch Mazzei I bought and never used. This could be plumbed in line with most filter returns and instead of a CO2 line, you could have an airline attached. If you put a small valve on the airline, it would control the rate the air is entrained. Let me know.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Do you think that I could just put it on the return of a 2213? I thought that they needed powerful flow do function.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

I want to see some Vietnamese White Clouds swimming in water at 1600 gph.  Actaully would just like to find some Vietnamese White Clouds in general.

Craig


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

The problem with comparing the flow in a tank to the flow in a river/ stream, is that flow in a stream is measured in ft/ sec, and not GPH. 
Since one cubic foot of water is 7.48 gallons, and the MP10 (that I ordered a couple of hours ago btw) will be on one side of the tank, flowing the length of the tank, to find ft/ sec that 1600 GPH is, you need to determine how "long" one gallon of water is in the tank.
The tank is 17.5x17.5x24"
One cubic foot is 1728 cubic inches. Divide that by the width and height of the tank (17.5x17.5= 306.25 square inches) to get the dimensions of 7.48 gallons in the tank, and you get 17.5x17.5x5.64 inches. Divide that by 7.48, and you get that one gallon of water is 17.5x17.5x0.754 inches. Now you know that if you move one gallon of water/ hour, the water in the tank is moving at .754 inches/ hour. 1600 GPH is 0.754x1600= 1207 inches/ hour (in a tank with these dimensions). To get that into ft/ sec, divide it by 3600 seconds/hour, then divide it by 12 inches/foot, and you get 0.0279 ft/ second? (anyone wanna check my math?)

That isn't too much flow, but it is coming from a small(ish) point. vortechs do have very wide flow, but I wouldn't be using the full 17.5x17.5", considering the water does have to come back to the pump... however, if I have it on pulse mode, the flow would be closer to the 0.0279 ft/ second, or 1/3 inches per second that I calculated above. One inch of water flow every three seconds doesn't _seem_ like much, but I guess I'll have to wait until I get the powerhead to see.

Any thoughts?


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

CL said:


> Do you think that I could just put it on the return of a 2213? I thought that they needed powerful flow do function.


Hmm, I have a 2213. I'll give it a try and see. I am curious to see how they perform with ambient pressure vs pressurized CO2.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

billb said:


> Hey CL,
> 
> You have tweaked my curiousity. Will your new tank have all the flow in one direction, ie a stream biotype?
> 
> ...


check out the params in that stream/river
Nascente
KH- 11
GH- 13
pH- 7.4
CO2- 14 ppm
PO4- <0.01
FE++ 0 ppm
Temperatura 22°C

Foz
KH- 8.5
GH- 12
pH- 7.4
CO2- 11 ppm
PO4- <0.01
FE++ 0 ppm
Temperatura 24.3°C

if we have that param in our tanks, it would be a mess.


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## billb (May 29, 2009)

Wild huh?

The water is crystal clear and no algae to be seen.

The river is spring fed and I suspect that, with the high pH and kH, the plants are able to use bicarbonates as a carbon source for photosynthesis. Definitely beautiful.


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## sherryazure (Feb 10, 2008)

A bit late with comment but as poster wasserpest mentions a balance. When younger and hiking into deep Oregon wilderness areas (along Rogue River and it's many tributaries) one could see a range of fast white water (no fish unless salmon spawning) to less of a rush to little eddies where all would slow down.

You could see the smaller "minnow" (fry so on) congregated in these areas... they had a choice of current.

As well there is an amazing video on Youtube by a professional that did under water work for major TV documentary on the Amazon River (and various tributaries).

One could see what a "school" of say cories meant (thousands) and one thing I noted was huge schools of for example neon tetras - swimming in and out of the various current "streams" - sometimes in the faster areas - then going to a huge near the bank water logged root system to rest a bit.

I have always had areas of faster movement (filter out flow over rocks I created that hung on the back like a filter) then areas that were almost dead - You could see the schools play in the splash/faster area then rest later (esp at night) in the area with plants and much less movement.

Best Sherry


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## sherryazure (Feb 10, 2008)

Here are some links: (yes I know the white cloud mountain minnow is from another area! lol) none the less rivers are rivers and great to see these in their natural habitat. As well the rocks, wood et al create changes in water flow - some faster, other areas slower. All gives a choice for fish to decide. Even when observing salmon in Oregon they never "treded" on the water flow mill but would often rest under rocky ledges of the water falls area.

(once saw a "river" bio type on youtube - poor fish had no chance of rest - circulation went round and round and you could see them hunkering down to the substrate for relief!)

This link has a photo of a Chinese River of the sort WCMM would inhabit.... (and why I think some vegetation is key for most fish) As well he has posted links to scientific literature below.

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Tanichthys&species=albonubes


Tank Setup

Fairly undemanding provided its tank is well-maintained. It does tend to appear a little pale in very sparsely decorated set-ups though, and a combination of subdued lighting and a dark substrate will encourage it to show its best colours. 

It can look quite superb in a heavily-planted arrangement decorated with pieces of bogwood, twisted roots and patches of floating vegetation, for example.

*It will also do well in a set-up designed to resemble a flowing stream *with a substrate of variably-sized rocks and gravel, some larger, water-worn boulders and perhaps a couple of driftwood branches. 

NOTE-----

A rivertank manifold could even be constructed to provide naturalistic unidirectional flow, although given the available habitat information torrent-like conditions should be avoided. 


While the majority of aquatic plants will fail to thrive in such conditions possibilities include hardy species such as Java fern, Bolbitis or Anubias which can be grown attached to the decor.

...................

Here is a "bio type" (I think the previous link provides more accurate information about what a "river" bio type for this species is)...set up by author at practical fish keeping (like one I am doing but going to add some grassy plants) (and wood along with rocks)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNrh3h7142E&NR=1

The Amazon videos go on and on... 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4DaP8HQyBU&NR=1&feature=fvwp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B-YCMGy4HI&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCDEzthvM4g

OT but great set ups.

http://acuariorosa.com/tag/english/


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## sherryazure (Feb 10, 2008)

Calm and sluggish are key words from wild populations biotype...

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/profile.php?genus=Tanichthys&species=albonubes


One more from same site (reason I have done this research and found this thread is I am setting up a tank (long) for white clouds. (and doing research) (I was searching for grassy types of plants which will flow over rocks and wood) (mild current - shallow rimless is the plan) (val nano???)


Habitat

Scant published information exists but one of the populations rediscovered close to the type locality in Guangdong inhabits a sluggish, spring-fed mountain stream with clear, shallow water and dense growths of aquatic vegetation (Yi et al. 2004). Macropodus opercularis and introduced Gambusia affinis were the only other fish species recorded.



The Hainan Island fish occupy a clear, slow-moving coastal stream and its tributaries. The substrate is composed of sand, pebbles and leaf litter and even during the wet season the maximum water depth was only 23.6"/60cm. 


They were observed swimming in schools in calmer zones and backwaters close to patches of dense, trailing marginal vegetation. The pH was 6.4 with low hardness values and plant species present included Blyxa japonica, Rotala rotundifolia, Ludwigia prostrata, Ceratopteris thalictroides and Limnophila sp. Other fish included Puntius semifasciolatus , Misgurnus anguillicaudatus , Macropodus opercularis and Channa gachua as well as non-native Gambusia and Oreochromis.


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## mossback (Aug 12, 2010)

> One more from same site (reason I have done this research and found this thread is I am setting up a tank (long) for white clouds. (and doing research) (I was searching for grassy types of plants which will flow over rocks and wood) (mild current - shallow rimless is the plan) (val nano???)


I'm in the early stages of planning a tank something like the yours, and you have me wondering about the mineral content of your water. My impression was that NYC water was extremely soft, much like mine. Since everything that I've read about vals indicates that they need hard water, I hadn't even considered using them. Is your experience different? (Or am I misinformed about NYC water, or are you going to buffer it with crushed coral, etc?)


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## Aquamom (Oct 1, 2010)

I have a Maxi-Jet 400 powerhead on my 20 gallon high, with an active bubbler via the Venturi aeration system. It puts out a fairly rapid current at the surface of the tank, and none of my minnows are bothered by it. They have floating plants they can rest in, and stem plants with leaves they also sleep in at night. There are little caves and places to rest, but the minnows and danios are pretty active during the day. If they swim into the bubble stream, it pushes them outward, and they just go on about their business. They're all over the tank -- near the surface, in the middle and at the bottom -- seem to have no trouble getting around at all. I think they kind of like the current. It's not so intense that they can't control their swimming. Seems just right for them.

-- Aquamom
:fish:


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