# 150 gallon planted tank, new to live plants



## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Oh and I currently acquired a Fluval marine and reef light with the tank, I will either use that or eventually a fresh water plant light, preferably LED.


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

A good substrate to start off would be black eco-complete, in my opinion. It's the first sub I started with, and it's still very useful to me to this day in my tanks. Very good substrate for low techs and beginners. Great for plants. Have a good one.


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## Topekoms (Dec 19, 2013)

I like black diamond blasting sand with DIY root tabs


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

NeonFlux said:


> A good substrate to start off would be black eco-complete, in my opinion. It's the first sub I started with, and it's still very useful to me to this day in my tanks. Very good substrate for low techs and beginners. Great for plants. Have a good one.


That's what I'm thinking about going with, should I mix it with gravel or strait eco or what? I'm guna need like a lot of it, like 200lb probably over $100 worth.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Topekoms said:


> I like black diamond blasting sand with DIY root tabs


+1, I have this in three tanks.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Not that it fits the "necessary" category but root tabs will help either of those two subs if plants like Swords/crypts are intended. I do know of two people who each have tanks/w PFS and no tabs and Crypts grow great in theirs. I do get better growth with
some substrate ferts but I just use tweezers to push individual pieces of Osmocote into the sub near plants and I have Eco in one tank and Flourite in the other...both CEC type.
But mainly where I was headed was why not just pour in a bag of the black diamond first and then add the Eco for the top of it. Same effect and should be much cheaper.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

I use Eco complete, but that's a little costly when you've got one rooted plant. Look into mineralized top soil, or even just top soil, with an inert sand cap.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Does Eco only come in black or red?


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

Turface with root tabs, I use aquariumplants.com tabs.

I looked into substrate for my 125 and was going to spend 600 for azoo plant bed grower ended up going with turface and spent about 20 bucks and the substrate is 4 inches thick text for pics.

John 408-313-3891


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Is the red and black Eco-complete different or just the color?

I read in the guide that eco-complete is "lacking key plant nutrients" how do I fix that?

I think I'm going to get 1 of the 50lbs bags of rock the LFS sells for $20 and then 7 bags of eco-complete? or would I be ok with 2 50lbs bags and like 4-5 bags of eco?

Does plant substrate last in the long run or does it wear out and basically just become rock?


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## danellis1229 (Jan 24, 2013)

look into dirt but cap with a sand its cheap could probably do the whole tank for less than 30 bucks


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

That is why some people suggest just using inert subs to begin/w. Like the Turface
or Black diamond. When a plant is in a pot, eventually it uses up all the nutrients.
Samefor subs in a tank, just takes longer. 
Some subs are good for CEC value. They can absorb nutrients and then when the water is lacking, they can release them. This helps keep the nutrient supply to the plants more even. ECo does this Black diamond don't.
Eco gives no nutrients of it's own to plants regardless of the manufacturers claims.
Giving you a list of the minerals a dinner plate is made of doesn't mean they will be in your food.
A moderate level of plants CAN live off of the nutrients in fish food/waste.
Lots of the tanks in the low tech part of the forum are like that and have no nutrients added. But lots of them do also. A high amount of plants or if plant growth in increased by adding CO2, will then need nutrients added.
Because of the type of root systems they have, some plants can get ferts from the sub just as easy as from the water. Sword plants and Crypts are like that.
In most cases those will grow a little faster if root tabs are used or you use a sub
which actually does give nutrients to the plants. But most of these are types of soils
and will need a cap of some kind to keep the soil from leaching various undesireables into the water, mostly pieces of wood etc but also color stains. These type of subs
leach ammonia at first which can kill fish if enough is released. And they eventually run out of nutrients and so need replacing or supplimentation/w root tabs.
Color is also a reason for using a different sub...some like dark, some light color.
Some people just use sand. Pool filter sand is popular as it has more even grains and
will rinse easier because it has less dust in it. Cheap is the motive here.
Why don't you look in the photo gallery and pick out which color you like best between
dark or light and then find out what is available in that choice.
You can get expensive or cheap types in both.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> That is why some people suggest just using inert subs to begin/w. Like the Turface
> or Black diamond. When a plant is in a pot, eventually it uses up all the nutrients.
> Samefor subs in a tank, just takes longer.
> Some subs are good for CEC value. They can absorb nutrients and then when the water is lacking, they can release them. This helps keep the nutrient supply to the plants more even. ECo does this Black diamond don't.
> ...


Hmm this seems like a good thing and a +for Eco... wait so I should stop eating of off rusty bar steel? Doctor said I'm iron deficient .




Raymond S. said:


> A moderate level of plants CAN live off of the nutrients in fish food/waste.
> Lots of the tanks in the low tech part of the forum are like that and have no nutrients added. But lots of them do also. A high amount of plants or if plant growth in increased by adding CO2, will then need nutrients added.
> Because of the type of root systems they have, some plants can get ferts from the sub just as easy as from the water. Sword plants and Crypts are like that.
> In most cases those will grow a little faster if root tabs are used or you use a sub
> ...


This is exactly what I want, no C02 or crazy balancing act with additives I just want a self sustaining low maintenance system. I'll do water changes and put some ferts/nutrients in but I don't wanna go crazy having to measure stuff every day and such.

Wont a gravel vac, planting a plant or rock/driftwood break the cap and boom dirt everywhere?




Raymond S. said:


> Color is also a reason for using a different sub...some like dark, some light color.
> Some people just use sand. Pool filter sand is popular as it has more even grains and
> will rinse easier because it has less dust in it. Cheap is the motive here.
> Why don't you look in the photo gallery and pick out which color you like best between
> ...


I'd like a natural color like the bottom of a river, Eco only comes in red or black but I might be able to make something work?

I'm thinking of doing 100lbs of rock throwing in like 1 or 2 16.7lbs bags of Fluval stratum or something and then poring 100lbs of Eco over the top?

The other thing I have thought of is sort of poring them in rows and sort of aquascaping and then only putting plants in the eco rows/areas.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

You can disturb the soil when you plant or add driftwood. It just needs to be done slow and easy. The cap(of whatever) is/should be about 1.5-2". Much harder to disturb what is underneath it that way.
You might take a look at Flourite and see if it comes in a color you like.
I was suggesting the black diamond for what is on the bottom so only half or less of what you need to buy would be a higher priced sub for the top.
Check this site for other possibilities. Not cheap though.
http://www.substratesource.com/?p=products&c=s


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Well I got 160lbs of eco and 50 lbs of medium sized gravel


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Is that instead of soil ?


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> Is that instead of soil ?


Yeah thats not all my cap lol. I know dirt with a cap would be way cheaper but a LFS game me a deal and I liked how the eco looked. I actually used 6 bags of black, 2 of red and a cheap 50lbs bag of larger gravel on top and sort of mixed them but not evenly so some places are darker and such so it looks really natural.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

That sub will never need to be replaced as dirt would eventually.
So when are the pictures going to start ?
That Eco has a good cec level. It absorbs nutrients when they are high and releases them later as the level of them get lower. Works the same/w root tabs also.
That helps keep the fert level more even in your tank throughout the month.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> That sub will never need to be replaced as dirt would eventually.
> So when are the pictures going to start ?
> That Eco has a good cec level. It absorbs nutrients when they are high and releases them later as the level of them get lower. Works the same/w root tabs also.
> That helps keep the fert level more even in your tank throughout the month.


Yeah thats also why I went with it, I would rather throw tabs in than replace my dirt.

Pic's? Just to save the flaming I will be getting another heater and planning on a FX6, I literally just put the rest of the rock in after washing it all, the decor and the 1 pictus. I will also be topping off the water but as I'm not using the hose anymore a 5 gallon bucket full ups the water level maybe an inch lol.













Now I just need to find a light, I think I'm going to go with the Marineland from here http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...mpid=B-_-MF-_-DFS-_-retarg&ref=6108&subref=AA as its way cheaper than anyone else and does 81par at 24" I guess. I'd really like to buy it local but I just can't see the LFS selling it for $100 less than there asking price like amazon let alone $140 under there asking price.

The Whisper 30-60 and Topfin clone, Aqueon heater, 48" fluval marine and reef light all came with it. Anyone need a fancy fluval marine light? Also came with a bunch of Fluval marine chemicals, some decorations, live rock that I gave to a local shop and an under gravel filter and 2 air pumps for $250 ha.

They were running salt water with 2 HOB filters and a airpump powered undergravel..... and maybe 10lbs of live rock.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Just curious mind you but where did the PAR rating come from ?
I see what you mean by the color of the sub looking more natural mixed.
Can't immagine having to trim plants in there. Do you have a scuba outfit...LOL...


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> Just curious mind you but where did the PAR rating come from ?
> I see what you mean by the color of the sub looking more natural mixed.
> Can't immagine having to trim plants in there. Do you have a scuba outfit...LOL...


Marinelands site, they list it for all models and don't list PAR off center, but the only one that is in that range and does is BML. The 2 lights I'm looking at are the Marineland or the ecoxotic due to the timer functions.

I sort of just dumped the eco in then washed the rock and dumped it in and left it, I read something on Iwagumi that made sense basically saying the more human interaction I put into it the more sorted and unnatural it will look so I just left it.

LOL I know its like oh that plants a little off let me move it a smidge... *arm in up to my shoulder*. Hopefully the jungle val will do its job and I will be able to trim it at the surface .


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

I highly doubt that Marineland light gets that much PAR. They tend to be very "enthusiastic" to say the least on their data. I remember their doublebright was supposed to get over 60PAR and in the end it could barely grow plants.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

gus6464 said:


> I highly doubt that Marineland light gets that much PAR. They tend to be very "enthusiastic" to say the least on their data. I remember their doublebright was supposed to get over 60PAR and in the end it could barely grow plants.


This is from The Planted Tank LEDlight thread even tho it might just be from the manufactures site.

*Marineland Single Bright*
_PAR Data(Source) PAR vs. Distance from source_
18-24" fixture: 8 PAR @ 12", 3 PAR @ 24"
24-36" fixture: 10 PAR @ 12", 4 PAR @ 24"
36-48" fixture: 11 PAR @ 12", 4.5 PAR @ 24"
48-60" fixture: 16 PAR @ 12", 6 PAR @ 24"
*Notes:* Probably not suitable for even low light plants unless the tank is very shallow.

*Marineland Double Bright*
_PAR Data(Source) PAR vs. Distance from source_
18-24 inch fixture: 30 PAR @ 12", 17 PAR @ 24"
24-36 inch fixture: 35 PAR @ 12", 19 PAR @ 24"
36-48 inch fixture: 54 PAR @ 12", 26 PAR @ 24"
48-60 inch fixture: 73 PAR @ 12", 35 PAR @ 24"
*Notes:* Should provide low light for most tanks, depending on fixture size.

*Marineland Reef Capable* 
_PAR Data(Source) PAR vs. Distance from source_
1876 PAR @ surface
253 PAR @ 6"
170 PAR @ 12"
110 PAR @ 18"
80 PAR @ 24"
*Notes:* Would probably have to be hung at least 1 foot above most tanks to prevent lots of algae. Great for high light on a tall tank as well. Thanks goes out again to AquaNerd blog, much better than the information in Marineland's catalog.

Even if it only does 40-50PAR thats about what I'm looking for.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Well I got a 6 light aquatic life T5 HO fixture and I really like it. The 2 banks are a little weird as 1 operates 2 lights and the other operates 4 and I don't want 6 as I'm sure that would be to much light so I am going to have the come on in the morning and then go off when the 4 go on.

I'm wondering what I should load the lights with? I'm thinking 2 5000k bulbs on the 2 and 2 6000-67000 bulbs a 5000k and a aquatic life rosate or should I just do 3 daylights and the rosate? or 2 daylights and 2 rosates?

The other thing that has me worried is that in the "lighting with par vs watts" thread it says the 4 light aquatic life T5 HO fixture does like 75par at 30"..... that's to much, while my light is 5" above my tank and then probably 28-29" of water thats still a lot of light, I wonder if I will be right where I want leaving the dirty glass tops on and a little scratched and dirty?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

If it said that with four bulbs you will have 75 PAR then it would seem foolish to use more bulbs than that. Any chance that the two middle bulbs can be left out and the fixture still work ?
Of course if you have injected CO2 it is not too much as long as you have a tank full of plants.
Using two at first and then with those off using the other four and for a total of not more than 9 hrs may work.
Which bulbs are 5000K ?
It's about a month since you started this thread. Do you have any plants growing in there yet ?


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> If it said that with four bulbs you will have 75 PAR then it would seem foolish to use more bulbs than that. Any chance that the two middle bulbs can be left out and the fixture still work ?
> Of course if you have injected CO2 it is not too much as long as you have a tank full of plants.
> Using two at first and then with those off using the other four and for a total of not more than 9 hrs may work.
> Which bulbs are 5000K ?
> It's about a month since you started this thread. Do you have any plants growing in there yet ?


Yeah from my short experience you can't pull bulbs out, thats what I wanted to do (run only the 4 end lights) but the blubs are arranged in banks and the 2 bulb bank (light 3 and 5) needs both to work and the 4 bulb bank (1,2,4 and 6) will only turn on 2 bulbs, not 3 if you pull one bulb out.

I have 3 jungle val in there now.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184368 This is where I saw the PAR measurements, actually almost 80... I could just go scrap this whole idea and get a 4 light aquatic life fixture (which operates in 2 banks of 2) but I didn't think I would have complete coverage on a 48x24" foot print tank, and 2 dual fixtures would make the most sense but no dual fixture has timers.

This is the 5000k bulb http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+23649&pcatid=23649


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Topekoms said:


> I like black diamond blasting sand with DIY root tabs


I am in about the same place as the OP. I'm doing a 220G. I had just done a 45G and it is growing nicely using ecco complete and gravel, and trying to decide what to use for the big tank (where cost is more of an issue).

I bought some Black Diamond. I bought fine (not realizing at the time there were multiple grades). It is VERY fine. I hope to see some medium tomorrow.

So... how do you vacuum it without it all being sucked up? With Ecco-Complete, if you are doing a slow vacuum, settles out nicely letting the crud go up. This stuff is about as light as the crud.

Can you vacuum it? Is medium better in that regard? 

I really like the look, and at 1/6th the price of Ecco complete that's attractive.


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Linwood said:


> I am in about the same place as the OP. I'm doing a 220G. I had just done a 45G and it is growing nicely using ecco complete and gravel, and trying to decide what to use for the big tank (where cost is more of an issue).
> 
> I bought some Black Diamond. I bought fine (not realizing at the time there were multiple grades). It is VERY fine. I hope to see some medium tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Well I was also looking at a 210 220 but didn't get it due to size issues.

IMO if I had got it (but with the experience of my 150g) I would go with ecocomplete still, it's live and helps cycle the tank, never needs replacing and you don't need to spend hours rinsing it like florite just dump it in and go. I used 8 bags of eco and 1 50lbs bag of 3/8's river rock that was $30. I probably could of got away with 7 bags of eco, I have a lot of substrate. If you want strait black eco like I see in a lot of planted tanks on here I would start with maybe like 10-12 bags for a 220 and see how you like it. Stores want $30 a bag and amazon wants $22.99, the store I got mine from gave it to me for $25 a bag for buying 8 bags so I would try to get a deal on it.

For the filter I'd run an FX6 all the way, I'm still trying to decide if it's worth it or not on a 150g, or if a AC110 and a 406 is enough.

For the lighting thats the hard part I like my 150XT because its only 48" long so I have a lot to pick from but its also 24" deep so I need 2 lights pretty much. If I were you I would get like 4 36" dual T5 HO fixtures? Idk not very many LED lights go to 72" and 4 shorter 36" lights would get really expensive.

Maybe like regular out put T5's would be better? Or 3 single fixtures would be ideal 3x 72" fixtures... 6 36" fixtures would be a lot of powercords but you could make them all come on in intervals.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> IMO if I had got it (but with the experience of my 150g) I would go with ecocomplete still, it's live and helps cycle the tank, never needs replacing and you don't need to spend hours rinsing it like florite just dump it in and go. I used 8 bags of eco and 1 50lbs bag of 3/8's river rock that was $30. ....
> 
> For the lighting thats the hard part I like my 150XT because its only 48" long so I have a lot to pick from but its also 24" deep so I need 2 lights pretty much. If I were you I would get like 4 36" dual T5 HO fixtures? Idk not very many LED lights go to 72" and 4 shorter 36" lights would get really expensive.
> 
> Maybe like regular out put T5's would be better? Or 3 single fixtures would be ideal 3x 72" fixtures... 6 36" fixtures would be a lot of powercords but you could make them all come on in intervals.


Re the ecco-complete, I do like it (I have tan in another tank). I added it with the tank up and running and it made almost no mess at all, very clean. Very surprising.

as to lighting, perhaps fodder for a different thread, but I want to keep incandescent and florescent in the rear view mirror, so need some kind of LED's. I have a Satellite LED+ now, I'm considering using 4 x 48 of those. I think I'll have mid-20's PAR at the bottom with that.

But the cost and appearance of the Black Diamond is very attractive.


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## Topekoms (Dec 19, 2013)

I don't vacuum my tank I have a 5ft spray bar that keeps enough flow it all pretty much goes in the filters


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## ScaryFatKidGT (Jul 5, 2014)

Linwood said:


> Re the ecco-complete, I do like it (I have tan in another tank). I added it with the tank up and running and it made almost no mess at all, very clean. Very surprising.
> 
> as to lighting, perhaps fodder for a different thread, but I want to keep incandescent and florescent in the rear view mirror, so need some kind of LED's. I have a Satellite LED+ now, I'm considering using 4 x 48 of those. I think I'll have mid-20's PAR at the bottom with that.
> 
> But the cost and appearance of the Black Diamond is very attractive.


Yeah thats not enough, 4 ecoxotics would be better but thats like $800-$1000 for 4 36 models. That was my problem is the cost of powerful LED fixtures.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

ScaryFatKidGT said:


> Yeah thats not enough, 4 ecoxotics would be better but thats like $800-$1000 for 4 36 models. That was my problem is the cost of powerful LED fixtures.


Do you mean the LED+'s won't be enough to get mid-20's PAR (in a pair), or do you mean mid-20's is not enough light? 

And yeah... four ecoxotics are pretty pricy (why don't they sell "add one" without all the electronics, and let you daisey chain?).

But four LED+'s are not cheap, but are a relatively low $478 for 4x48, or only $364 for 4 x 36 (per today's amazon pricing).

..... 

Back to the substrate, I woke up thinking this is what I might try -- a few bags (maybe 4) of Ecco-complete (that's enough to cover .75 inchs).

Then add in 2-3 bags of Black Diamond (aiming for maybe 50/50 mixture for 1.5" total)

Then add in 50# of the smallest smooth black rock I can find for visible texture.

I'll be a bit sloppy (or planned!) and get more sand in some places, and more rock in others.

Then root tabs under the areas where I put root feeders and I'm done.

Thoughts?

Question: should I get something like Osmocote Plus and scatter a few grains evenly on the whole tank before adding any of this, as a starter fertilizer, or is too much of that going to push up as it is spread and get into the water column too quickly?


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