# Purigen killed fish ? *UPDATED with hard evidence*



## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

10 gallon tank:

10x RCS
3 x Peacock Gudgeon Fry
5 x Endler (1M,1F & 3 fry

I have been cleaning my bags of purigen as the instructions say on the box. The only difference was i rinsed the bags longer and i left them twice standing in a prime/bottled water mix twice over a period of 48 hours. After that i rinsed them off again and left to dry off a bit for 2 hours (so still moist, not completely dry)
I placed one in my HOB filter and left for work. Got home at around 9pm and decided to feed the fry some microworms. Due to the light being off i didnt notice straight away but with no fish at the surface (usually the fish come to the surface when im near the tank , expecting food) i switched the lights on. All fish are white and on the bottom....dead !
I just scooped them all out and noticed no shrimp are dead, just the fish ! Not one fish survived. How can this be ? Surely if there was bleach still on the bag (which i doubt , since i was so careful to "over rinse" the bag) surely the shrimp would have been effected right ?


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

This tank has never had purigen in before btw.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I don't think it was the Purigen or the bleach, it just doesn't make any sense that the most sensitive creatures survived.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

If the tnak never hard purigen, then were did it come from? another tank?


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

I have yet to check the params, but this tank has been setup for a long time now with no issues. I did however dose 1/2 a cap of flourish Trace and 1/2 cap of Excel early this morning (some 10-12 hours before the fish died) but that and the purigen is the only things different ive done to this tank. But even the small doses of ferts would have effected the shrimp first right ?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

how long did you soak in bleach?


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

GeToChKn said:


> If the tnak never hard purigen, then were did it come from? another tank?


Yes, the purigen came from a 40 gallon tank where the fry's parents are. So the Fry were born in the 40 gallon (with the 2 bags of purigen in) and then transfered to the 10 gallon.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

GeToChKn said:


> how long did you soak in bleach?


I left the bags in a bleach solution over night (around 13-14 hours) the beads were white so i figured i didnt need it to be in any longer.


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## TheFoleys (Jul 30, 2012)

Have you used any algae control products since you have been feeding worms? Say in the past month or 2.
Are the worms from your own culture, or store bought?
Sorry to hear about your fish.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

TheFoleys said:


> Have you used any algae control products since you have been feeding worms?


No, i have 10 cherry shrimp that control my algae


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

That is a real mystery.
You rinsed the bleach out well after re-charging your Purigen, so I can't imagine that had anything to do with it, particularly since your shrimps have survived. Nor would anything else you say you did, or added.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

I will check the params tomorrow morning and let you know what they are. But if the params had a spike then again...wouldnt the shrimp have died first ?
I also thought that maybe my GF sprayed air freshner around the room and that contaminated the surface where the endlers hang around. But the Peacock gudgeon also died and they hang around the substrate with the shrimp so it cant be anything that was airbourne.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Could there have been a temperature spike?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

stevenjohn21 said:


> I will check the params tomorrow morning and let you know what they are. But if the params had a spike then again...wouldnt the shrimp have died first ?
> I also thought that maybe my GF sprayed air freshner around the room and that contaminated the surface where the endlers hang around. But the Peacock gudgeon also died and they hang around the substrate with the shrimp so it cant be anything that was airbourne.


I'm not so sure about that. I've read some horror stories about the loss of fish from sprays and their airborne particles near a fish tank. That may well have been the cause. The peacock may have been near, or gone to the surface for a moment, at just the wrong time, or been contaminated by another fish.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Ive not got a heater in the tank yet as the room stays at a constant 76-78 degrees. Has not changed in about 4 months .
I just had a closer look and found 2-3 shrimp berried and fanning the eggs ! I have found one survivor, a peacock gudgeon fry with clamped fins and very faded...almost a cream color and gasping for air. I went to get a jug to collect him and put him in another tank but i cant seem to find him now. The gasping for air is a clue but what ?


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

The GF did not go into this room at all tonight so I can mark off the air freshner idea. I just put the sole survivor in a breeding net inside another tank , although the ph is lower in this one so hopefully the 10 min acclimating helped .
Call me gross but i just inspected the dead fish and some are white and some still have their color which tells me (i think) that i maybe got to them a few mins after they died, but whatever it was, killed them within a few hours.


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## SpecGrrl (Jul 26, 2012)

I am sorry you are going through this. I am glad your shrimp are ok.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

SpecGrrl said:


> I am sorry you are going through this. I am glad your shrimp are ok.


Thanks, Im so mad at myself right now, but the worst thing is i dont know what to be mad at myself about until i find out how i killed them ! Serves me right for putting my 2 favourite fish species in the same tank !


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## brainwavepc.com (Sep 27, 2011)

perhaps they got internal parasites from the worms that finally killed them. 

where do you get the worms


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

The microworms are raised by myself in a plastic tub. I've had the same culture going strong for 3 years , I doubt the worms had anything to do with the death .... Although it would explain why only the fish died and tge shrimp are all good


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

I tested my water today and as expecte it seems fine

Ph 6.8
Ammonia 0
Nitrate 0
Nitrite 0


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## storrisch (Jan 22, 2011)

Running co2?


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

storrisch said:


> Running co2?


DIY C02, have had it in for 7 months now and this batch was needing a new mix as it wasnt as effective.


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## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

*This is a toughie*

After you treated the Purigen with Prime, did you "condition" it to match the pH of your tank? Also what kind of bottled water did you use when you treated it with Prime?

EDIT: Just saw your other topic where you mentioned that your Purigen stunk after regenerating it. Personally I've never tried smelling Purigen much but I do not believe it should stink. I think that may be related to your fish deaths.

Also you shouldn't dry out Purigen as it could cause the beads to break or crack.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Soujirou said:


> After you treated the Purigen with Prime, did you "condition" it to match the pH of your tank? Also what kind of bottled water did you use when you treated it with Prime?
> 
> EDIT: Just saw your other topic where you mentioned that your Purigen stunk after regenerating it. Personally I've never tried smelling Purigen much but I do not believe it should stink. I think that may be related to your fish deaths.
> 
> Also you shouldn't dry out Purigen as it could cause the beads to break or crack.


I checked the ph inside the cup of water that had the bags inside and it read 7.0, my tank water is 6.8 so i figured it would be safe enough to place in the HOB filter. The bottled water i used was Deer Park natural water..... does this make a difference ?

The purigen stank after pulling it out of the cup but after maybe 1 hour on a towel to dry slightly the smell had gone (still there but very faint)

The purigen was moist, as it wasnt out long enough to completely dry. I read on the seachem website that it shouldnt be completely dry, so i did take that into account.

Either way , how can i account for the loss of fish and not the shrimp ? Im beginning to think it had to be something else otherwise the more "delicate" shrimp would have died also.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Call me cruel but today i decided to do a little experiment, just so i could put my mind to rest !
I filled my 2.5 gallon tank with tank water..... and mixed in 2ml of bleach. Then i grabbed 2 shrimp and 2 platy fry (you can see where this is going)
I placed both fish and both shrimp at the same time and started the stopwatch. Within 5 mins both platy fry were dead (shocker) BUT the 2 shrimp are still swimming around and the clock is running at just over 18 mins so far ! Dont get me wrong the shrimp are not happy, they are swimming around way more than they usually do but they are certainly not dead. Now i cant do the calculation of how much bleach to the volume of water was in each case. But i think its hard evidence that there may have been bleach still on the bag when i placed them in my HOB ! How ? i dont know since i double rinsed and doubled soaked. But i think i can finally rest now and know what the cause of death was.
So it seems that shrimp are a little more resliliant to bleach than fish, maybe bleach does not mix with water and it may just stay near the surface.


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## harley1964 (Jan 22, 2012)

We have to be careful with the bleach, so many have scents and perfumes added and who knows what else.


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## chunkychun (Apr 6, 2012)

Not sure your experiment proved anything but bleach can kill your fish and kill it faster than shrimp. Maybe you should repeat your recharging process with another or the same purigen and then check it for chlorine with a pool test kit. That might be more conclusive and less harmful to fish/shrimp.


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## phoenixkiller (May 13, 2012)

Also, platy fry can die just because of the shock of being moved to a different tank. Believe me, I know.

Same thing with shrimp. 

Bleach is still a possibility, but I would not call it hard evidence. JMHO.


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## jerome736 (Oct 13, 2008)

I can tell you that bleach definitely mixes with water...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

stevenjohn21 said:


> Call me cruel but today i decided to do a little experiment, just so i could put my mind to rest !
> I filled my 2.5 gallon tank with tank water..... and mixed in 2ml of bleach. Then i grabbed 2 shrimp and 2 platy fry (you can see where this is going)
> I placed both fish and both shrimp at the same time and started the stopwatch. Within 5 mins both platy fry were dead (shocker) BUT the 2 shrimp are still swimming around and the clock is running at just over 18 mins so far ! Dont get me wrong the shrimp are not happy, they are swimming around way more than they usually do but they are certainly not dead. Now i cant do the calculation of how much bleach to the volume of water was in each case. But i think its hard evidence that there may have been bleach still on the bag when i placed them in my HOB ! How ? i dont know since i double rinsed and doubled soaked. But i think i can finally rest now and know what the cause of death was.
> So it seems that shrimp are a little more resliliant to bleach than fish, maybe bleach does not mix with water and it may just stay near the surface.


This is your version of evidence? Uh.... Wha? 

This does not prove anything relating to what happened the first time. This just proves you know how to kill your fish. 

I don't understand how that links to the possible problem to start. 

Further, your title should be that "I KILL FISH", not purigen killed fish. Then to say you have "hard evidence" makes it VERY misleading. Your hard evidence is that bleach killed fish(this time, which may or may not have been the case last time). You don't have any evidence to state that purigen killed anything.

Your first post insists it isn't bleach that did this. Then you put bleach in your tank as a conclusive evidence that purigen killed your fish? 

what?


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## daz4321 (Apr 1, 2012)

In my experience and opinion the only thing I am aware of that will kill fish and not shrimp that is liable to happen in an aquarium is low oxygen levels. shrimp can survive with much lower dissolved oxygen levels


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

daz4321 said:


> In my experience and opinion the only thing I am aware of that will kill fish and not shrimp that is liable to happen in an aquarium is low oxygen levels. shrimp can survive with much lower dissolved oxygen levels


Thats exactly what i was thinking,while reading through this thread. Was gonna post a reply saying just that, once i got to the end. You got there first! lol



OverStocked said:


> This is your version of evidence? Uh.... Wha?
> 
> This does not prove anything relating to what happened the first time. This just proves you know how to kill your fish.
> 
> ...


I think thats a very valid point too. I agree 100% that there is no proof purigen is to blame at all (especially since it was removed from the OP's breeder tank, where he obviously wasnt having any problems with it). Quite possibly mishandling with bleach was to blame, definitely to blame in the experiment. Or maybe some weird freak thing that caused a drop in o2.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

VisionQuest28 said:


> Thats exactly what i was thinking,while reading through this thread. Was gonna post a reply saying just that, once i got to the end. You got there first! lol
> 
> 
> 
> I think thats a very valid point too. I agree 100% that there is no proof purigen is to blame at all (especially since it was removed from the OP's breeder tank, where he obviously wasnt having any problems with it). Quite possibly mishandling with bleach was to blame, definitely to blame in the experiment. Or maybe some weird freak thing that caused a drop in o2.


Overdosing prime can reduce dissolved oxygen.


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

To kill more fish in an attempt to prove/figure-out what killed them is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of.

You know a better way to prove that it was the purigen that did it? Keep the purigen out - let your fish and shrimp thrive for years, and voila, it was the purigens/bleach's fault. You don't need that stuff in your tank anyways. Mechanical filtration, biological filtration, thriving plants, and regular tank maintenance will give you crystal clear water.


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## wastedtime (Oct 27, 2011)

I read through this thread and the only thing I can conclude is that the bleach killed the fish. Also in post 5 you mention that you dosed excel in the tank, excel also reduces the amount of oxygen available in the water, that could explain why the fish were gasping. 

There are so many factors here that could have caused the death of your fish eg. Excel / DIY CO2 / Leftover bleach from the purigen recharge. The hard evidence proves nothing except that bleach can kill fish. Not sure why you blame purigen for it ?


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## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

Perhaps the thread title could be more clear, but I don't want to focus on semantics. I think the experiment was just to show that it could be possible for bleach left on inadequately rinsed Purigen could kill fish before shrimp, which is the opposite of conventional wisdom.

As for an earlier question, no I don't think Purigen needs conditioning which such a small difference in pH. If you are not doing it already, I would recommend swirling the bucket you are soaking the Purigen in once a day at least.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Soujirou said:


> Perhaps the thread title could be more clear, but I don't want to focus on semantics. I think the experiment was just to show that it could be possible for bleach left on inadequately rinsed Purigen could kill fish before shrimp, which is the opposite of conventional wisdom.
> 
> As for an earlier question, no I don't think Purigen needs conditioning which such a small difference in pH. If you are not doing it already, I would recommend swirling the bucket you are soaking the Purigen in once a day at least.


How is residual bleach killing livestock contrary to conventional wisdom. Pretty much everyone in the world would agree that bleach could kill livestock. Te experiment proved that bleach kills things.... Which is in fact the point of bleach.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

Soujirou said:


> Perhaps the thread title could be more clear, but I don't want to focus on semantics. I think the experiment was just to show that it could be possible for bleach left on inadequately rinsed Purigen could kill fish before shrimp, which is the opposite of conventional wisdom.


Correct ! I added the *Hard Evidence* title a few days after, did not mean to make it look like Purigen did kill my fish and i have hard evidence.... It could be misleading.
Indeed i did the experiment to see what could have killed fish and not the shrimp. I tried overdosing 2x the amount of excel & trace that i put in the tank earlier that day and nothing happened. That lead me to the bleach experiment.....it did kill the fish as expected but did not kill any shrimp which was not expected.



OverStocked said:


> How is residual bleach killing livestock contrary to conventional wisdom. Pretty much everyone in the world would agree that bleach could kill livestock. Te experiment proved that bleach kills things.... Which is in fact the point of bleach.


 
Ummm, which it didnt ! That is my point, it is again evidence that the shrimp survived excess bleach and the fish didnt !
If i had said to you before doing this experiment what i was going to do, you would say "both shrimp and fry will die" correct ?


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Yea, bleach killls fish and shrimp that is not something you should be playing around with. 

I'm not suprised the bleach hit your fish first, your shrimp might die days later. You should read this thread about problems regenerating purigen:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=192612&highlight=recharging+purigen&page=2

I'm guessing your recharged purigen is releasing chlorine..


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

Hey fire can kill living things. Now lets go burn some cows alive to prove it. Seems legit right? That's what you just did.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

stevenjohn21 said:


> Correct ! I added the *Hard Evidence* title a few days after, did not mean to make it look like Purigen did kill my fish and i have hard evidence.... It could be misleading.
> Indeed i did the experiment to see what could have killed fish and not the shrimp. I tried overdosing 2x the amount of excel & trace that i put in the tank earlier that day and nothing happened. That lead me to the bleach experiment.....it did kill the fish as expected but did not kill any shrimp which was not expected.
> 
> 
> ...


You proved that your livestock died this time from you dosing bleach in your tank. You didn't prove anything relating to the series of events from before. 

I could repeat this outcome by doing an umber of things. Co2. Low o2. Other random medications. 

I could reverse the outcome and kill shrimp before fish as well. Moderately high copper. Copper based medications. Aquarium salt. 

You name it. None of it proves anything relating to why anything died the first time. Your impression that this is some sort of scientific experiment is seriously misguided. 

All you did was kill some fish needlessly.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i imagine the shrimp are dead at this point as well.
i did not take the time to read the whole thread. but purigen used with the wron decholirnator can release some nasty stuff back into the water and i think takes more than one recharge to do this. seachems forums will likely have tha answer i just have no done the homework to dig it up.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i imagine the shrimp are dead at this point as well.
> i did not take the time to read the whole thread. but purigen used with the wron decholirnator can release some nasty stuff back into the water and i think takes more than one recharge to do this. seachems forums will likely have tha answer i just have no done the homework to dig it up.


And the answer is here, Don't attempt to recharge purigen using any dechlorinator with a slime coat additive:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...purigen&page=2




daz4321 said:


> In my experience and opinion the only thing I am aware of that will kill fish and not shrimp that is liable to happen in an aquarium is low oxygen levels. shrimp can survive with much lower dissolved oxygen levels


You are partially right, Chlorine burns membranes, including gills, which causes them to thicken, Once the gill epithellium is thickened, the efficiency of diffusing oxygen into the blood slows, as does the stripping of Ammonia and CO2 from the blood to the environment. All of these things can be leathal to the organism. Shrimp are probalby not as metabolically active as fish, therefore they don't die as quickly from such exposure, but they probably are suffering and may die days later. 

Finally, Any scientist worth their salt will tell you, you don't use the word *prove*, ever.


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## stevenjohn21 (May 23, 2012)

People need to calm down LOL
Overstocked- this thread has gone out of control ! This amount of views and replies on something i tried and tested that you obviously disagree with ! And yet my Journal thread gets less than 1/3 of those views....shows where most viewers priorities are ha ha....lets burn the witch ! 
I am not replying to anymore comments made as i think its silly. I feel like i got my answer in that the bags of purigen had bleach left on them and that killed the fish but not the shrimp. And just so everyone else knows, the fry i used to "experiment" are feeder fish for my cichlids/turtles...... weather it was bleach or a turtles mouth that killed them, in the end they were still going to die.

Mods - please close this


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Bleach turns into salt and water and chloride when exposed to oxygen. U can rinse purigen out and let it air dry for a few days and it would be safe as well

Bleach is not as lethal as u make it sound, and is easily handled by either oxygen and time, or a proper dechlorinator. Period. These are FACTS determined by people who know way more about chemicals than i do

The lethal action to ur fish is due to You, the user, for not properly recharging it.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

stevenjohn21 said:


> People need to calm down LOL
> Overstocked- this thread has gone out of control ! This amount of views and replies on something i tried and tested that you obviously disagree with ! And yet my Journal thread gets less than 1/3 of those views....shows where most viewers priorities are ha ha....lets burn the witch !
> I am not replying to anymore comments made as i think its silly. I feel like i got my answer in that the bags of purigen had bleach left on them and that killed the fish but not the shrimp. And just so everyone else knows, the fry i used to "experiment" are feeder fish for my cichlids/turtles...... weather it was bleach or a turtles mouth that killed them, in the end they were still going to die.
> 
> Mods - please close this


There is nothing funny or silly about this. But please do not take it personally, I'm guessing you haven't had any deep philosphical thoughts on the ethics of your platy breeding operation or your turtle husbandry. These animals are being kept purely for your entertainment. Their existence is only possible under your constant care and supervision. If you were to attempt to release them back to nature, you would be doing far more harm than good. It is your responsibility to do everything you can to minimize their suffering, as like I said, they are here for your enjoyment. Many people would frown upon feeding live animals to your turtle. There are other ways to feed that turtle, but more importantly lets face it, the turtle is not gaining from this bargain, only you are. If you have so many platys that you have to kill them with bleach, or a turtle, maybe you should turn the males in to the pet store so they stop breeding. Euthanizing them is probably the most humane fate that could meet, but doing so with bleach is probably not the best way to die, but even that is not the problem here. It is the attitude towards a matter that should be handled with all seriousness and prevented if at all possible. Euthanizing fish should not be taken with LOL's or justified by the fact that you're going to keep doing it anyways. It probably should not be used to prove one's point either. Again, I don't blame you for it, just want you to be a bit more thoughtful of the wellfare of your shrimp, fish and reptiles. 

Finally, this thread should not be deleted, the lessons learned here provide insight and could help others save their fish and shrimp in the future.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

as for the above statement, breeding fish for food is common, and acceptable in my book, they are meeting a natural and acceptable end. this is no different than raising worms or midge larva, or misquito larva to feed fish, they just have less of a brain than a fish does


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## sean_k (Jan 15, 2022)

I had Purigen kill my fish as well. I didn't rinse a new bag well enough and when I put it in the filter some white beads came out. The fish ate the beads and died. The larger fish survived because they could pass the beads


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

This thread is almost 10 years old, but it looks like purigen didn't kill your fish, you did by allowing your fish to eat it and cause an obstruction. If that is what happened, you could substitute any non water soluble bead and the outcome would be the same.


sean_k said:


> I had Purigen kill my fish as well. I didn't rinse a new bag well enough and when I put it in the filter some white beads came out. The fish ate the beads and died. The larger fish survived because they could pass the beads


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## Wonger77 (Jun 11, 2018)

It was the bleach from the purigen.

The same thing happened to me a few years ago. I recharged the purigen as directed (as I had done before a few times) and within a day, one (endler) of my 2 fish was dead and the other (sparkling gourami) was gasping air at the surface. My amano shrimp were twitchy and zipping around the tank. The other dramatic change was that I had a ton of detritus worms and seed shrimp swarming the water column and glass surfaces. I normally didn’t see any since they were normally in the substrate. I was pretty sure it was the purigen so I tossed the bag, did a big water change, and threw in a bag of carbon. My sparkling gourami, shrimp, and snail survived. I still have the same gourami 2 years later.

Lesson learned. I no longer recharge the purigen bags. When they get depleted, I just toss them and put a new one in. $8-10 every few months is worth not risking nuking the tank.


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

discuspaul said:


> I'm not so sure about that. I've read some horror stories about the loss of fish from sprays and their airborne particles near a fish tank. That may well have been the cause. The peacock may have been near, or gone to the surface for a moment, at just the wrong time, or been contaminated by another fish.


Edit: Just noticed this is a necro-thread. Still worth resurrecting on occasion as a reminder about fish and chemicals...



> >>>>


Seems like an awful quick event to not have been a chemical introduced into the tank. I think that this is an idea that is often overlooked by those of us who tend aquariums. I am very careful about getting anything on my hands if I know that I will have them in my tank for maintenance. I do not wear gloves but do even avoid soap in the hours before maintenance. Chemical sprays will land on the water surface and then get distributed by the pump to all levels of the tank. I am not saying that this is what happened here but are ideas that we often forget. I once lost a number of fish by doing a tap water change and forgetting the Prime for a few hours. That was painful.

Regarding Purigen. I keep two packets and rotate them. After the bleach soak I let the packet soak in clean water with Prime in it for at least a full day. I then let it dry out and store it in a ziplock bag until it is time to rotate it back into service. This has worked so far and I have experienced no loss of fish, shrimp or snails.

Sorry about your fish.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Most likely people used "splashless" bleach to clean their Purigen.

It contains detergents and surfactants and can kill fish quite quickly.

You need to use good old fashioned pure bleach, NOT splashless.


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## Thenoob (Jan 15, 2014)

The bleach always makes me a little nervous so when I recharge I aggressively rinse it in the faucet to flush as much bleach, then I soak it in water with a heavy prime dose for atleast 24 hours, rinse again and then add it to the tank. I also dose some extra prime to the tank when I add it just in case.

Sent from my SM-G970U1 using Tapatalk


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