# Screening Miracle Grow



## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I could have posted this in the substrate section but I figured its more of a general thought. Okay I am on my 2nd bag of screening my MGOPM and its a slow process that's for sure. No big deal really. The goal is to dual screen it all using 1/4" hardware cloth and then 1/16th fiberglass screen. Am I over screening by running it thru the fiberglass as well. This is my first run at doing soil substrate and I am not sure if by dual screening if I am getting rid of good decomposable materials that will extend the nutrient level in the soil itself.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

When I recently did mine I just screened it through a cooking strainer...I've never been _that _picky, myself. Still ended up with a pretty fine mixture of dirt.

The biggest problem is that, depending on the bag, you end up with twigs or large wood chips or even stone. That's the stuff you really want to get rid of in my experience.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Maybe... I used a cooking strainer. Then, I soaked the soil with tap water, in a 5g bucket. All the lighter and larger contents would float to the surface. I, then, scooped them out. The heavier and finer soil would sink to the bottom. That's about it.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

IMO one of the best things about mgopm is the different size stuff. The smallest stuff will breakdown fisrt and provide most of the nutrients from the beginning. All the large chunks you are screening out will take a long time to decompose and could be providing nutrients for several years from now.

I never understood why anyone screens mgopm?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

dprais1 said:


> IMO one of the best things about mgopm is the different size stuff. The smallest stuff will breakdown fisrt and provide most of the nutrients from the beginning. All the large chunks you are screening out will take a long time to decompose and could be providing nutrients for several years from now.
> 
> I never understood why anyone screens mgopm?



Because the larger chunks would float to the surface more easily??? And excessive organic contents in the soil for aquarium use can be deadly for fish and exacerbate the anaerobic condition? 

I screened most of the larger chunks out. I put fish back into my tank within 3 days. Fish have been doing great. No excessive organic contents in the water column. Initial NO3 reading after the conversion was only 2ppm. I never have a sudden eruption of anaerobic bubbles at all. They are usually very non-eventful and very gradual. These bubbles never cloud up my water. No extreme rotten egg smell at all.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Thanks everyone for the quick replies. The wood chips and stones are strained by the 1/4" hardware cloth pretty well. Softer bending grass like twigs are getting thru though. Sounds like I don't have to dual strain after all then. I have about 7 tanks to setup in which all will be dry starts. Once one is flooded, I will setup the next and so forth. I also plan to run them at least a year as aquatic gardens. The tanks are in my garage in which is unconditioned so I need to experiment with the change of seasons before I attempt to place fish in them. So for a year, I won't have to worry about fish. The focus will be only on keep the plants thriving.


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## PapHater (Feb 21, 2013)

I've set up 3 tanks using MGOPM. The first one I strained and sifted. The other two I just threw the bag in and capped with sand. In my experience there was no difference between the first tank and the last two.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

tetra73 said:


> Because the larger chunks would float to the surface more easily??? And excessive organic contents in the soil for aquarium use can be deadly for fish and exacerbate the anaerobic condition?
> 
> I screened most of the larger chunks out. I put fish back into my tank within 3 days. Fish have been doing great. No excessive organic contents in the water column. Initial NO3 reading after the conversion was only 2ppm. I never have a sudden eruption of anaerobic bubbles at all. They are usually very non-eventful and very gradual. These bubbles never cloud up my water. No extreme rotten egg smell at all.


the same for not sifting. there is no difference. except I put fish back in same day. larger chunks just need a bit longer to absorb h2o, but since the weight of sand is holding it down there aren't any issues. smaller particles that breakdown faster and easier will have more of an immediate effect on water quality. larger particles will take months to years to breakdown completely.

I'm not saying sifting doesn't work, it does. But the end result doesn't impact aquarium conditions in a positive way. 

It just doesn't seem to make an impact. So why do it?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

dprais1 said:


> the same for not sifting. there is no difference. except I put fish back in same day. larger chunks just need a bit longer to absorb h2o, but since the weight of sand is holding it down there aren't any issues. smaller particles that breakdown faster and easier will have more of an immediate effect on water quality. larger particles will take months to years to breakdown completely.
> 
> I'm not saying sifting doesn't work, it does. But the end result doesn't impact aquarium conditions in a positive way.
> 
> It just doesn't seem to make an impact. So why do it?


The weight of the sand also would prevent the soil to breathe on its own. That's why sand isn't recommended as a cap. Guess what, I am using fine gravels to cap my dirt and in some sections they are only half of an inch THE MOST. Now try that with sand or try that with fine gravels without sifting out larger wood chunks.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

tetra73 said:


> The weight of the sand also would prevent the soil to breathe on its own. That's why sand isn't recommended as a cap. Guess what, I am using fine gravels to cap my dirt and in some sections they are only half of an inch THE MOST. Now try that with sand or try that with fine gravels without sifting out larger wood chunks.


I've never read that sand is not recommended as a cap. I believe that the roots provide some exchange of gases in the substrate and diffusion to some extent. 

I wouldn't, personally, ever just use 1/2"cap but nor would I use gravel. But that is just preference I guess. 

So, I will amend. If capping with sand, 1" or more, there is no need to sift.


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## Indychus (Feb 21, 2013)

Theres no need to sift no matter what cap you're using. Dump it into a bucket of water, let it sit for an hour, then scoop off anything that is still floating. The rest is ready to go into your tank.

In my experience, sand is the best cap. I have better growth in my sand capped tanks and its easier to plant and move plants. No idea where you heard that sand wasnt recommended, as the majority of people with mgopm use sand caps. I have used both, and prefer sand.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Indychus said:


> Theres no need to sift no matter what cap you're using. Dump it into a bucket of water, let it sit for an hour, then scoop off anything that is still floating. The rest is ready to go into your tank.
> 
> In my experience, sand is the best cap. I have better growth in my sand capped tanks and its easier to plant and move plants. No idea where you heard that sand wasnt recommended, as the majority of people with mgopm use sand caps. I have used both, and prefer sand.


Well, a simple google search on ""dirt tank" sand" should produce interesting results. There are too many reasons why one shouldn't use sand... I am using fine gravels with high CEC (aquariumplants.com substrates) because I have them already.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

I've used sand before...can't think of a reason why it would be an issue.


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## djjcoleman (Jul 6, 2013)

jpappy789 said:


> I've used sand before...can't think of a reason why it would be an issue.


The argument against sand wasn't about the material, but the grain size of the sand. Fine grained "play" sand was thought to pack tight enough to keep substrate gas trapped. True? False? I dunno.

I've been using a "large grain" (~1/64" size) sand for 25+ years. From time to time I have some hydrogen sulfide escape even with the larger grain. So, the whole argument seems to fall apart. 

Take away? Plant heavy and use a cap that is attractive to you.


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## amberoze (May 22, 2012)

Black diamond blasting sand all the way. It doesn't pack down due to it's consistent grain size. It's the variation in grain size that allows it to pack down. Sifting is good, be sure to manually break down the larger clumps so there is less wasted soil, the only point of shifting is to removing sticks and stones.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4


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## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

I actual just sifted my miracle grow and soaked it. After I had sifted the first batch and soaked it I got back almost nothing from it. So now I sifted it with some cheap top soil and put enough water in it to create wet pancake like thickness and am mixing it up a couple times a day. Ill probally let it sit until the excess water dries up. I'm gonna then mix it 50/50 with safe-t-sorb and then cap it with just safe-t-sorb. And stuff as many plants as possible in there and see what happens


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Wow, there is some pretty good stuff here. Glad I posted about sifting. If I double screened, I will loose more mix than anticipated. So getting away with less sifting saves time and money. I have seen dirt tanks that don't have to add fertilizers at all for the most part with MTS or MGOPM and I assumed they just screened out large pieces as well. Of course the tech level determines the amount of exhausted nutrients but I'd like to get many years out of the soil before dosing is required. 

My caps will be of the different flourites with a few areas of pool filter sand caps. Good to hear about sand caps as well. I know fine sand is more iffy to deal with so pfs all the way for me. I will use 1.5" of soil and cap in ground covering areas and 2" of soil and cap in heavy rooting areas is the plan. Based on the replies I am getting, it sounds like I will be okay just screening for larger chucks to save time.

With all that said, I won't bother screening anything for my soil growout tank that won't be capped. I will pre-soak and strain off the floaters. Whats left will start my dsm for the growout. I am trying out the Vigoro brand from HD for this so hopefully it holds value and who knows, it could be the alternative to the more expensive MGOPM. The contents differ slightly but it could work well.


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## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

Defiantly make sure to always cap the dirt it will float if you don't. This is my first dirted tank and trying it with a 10 gallon tank and I'm probally gonna go with a 10w floodlight led and heavily plant it and see how it goes. Who knows about fauna in there. More so looming to see how the plants do


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

flight50 said:


> Wow, there is some pretty good stuff here. Glad I posted about sifting. If I double screened, I will loose more mix than anticipated. So getting away with less sifting saves time and money. I have seen dirt tanks that don't have to add fertilizers at all for the most part with MTS or MGOPM and I assumed they just screened out large pieces as well. Of course the tech level determines the amount of exhausted nutrients but I'd like to get many years out of the soil before dosing is required.
> 
> My caps will be of the different flourites with a few areas of pool filter sand caps. Good to hear about sand caps as well. I know fine sand is more iffy to deal with so pfs all the way for me. I will use 1.5" of soil and cap in ground covering areas and 2" of soil and cap in heavy rooting areas is the plan. Based on the replies I am getting, it sounds like I will be okay just screening for larger chucks to save time.
> 
> With all that said, I won't bother screening anything for my soil growout tank that won't be capped. I will pre-soak and strain off the floaters. Whats left will start my dsm for the growout. I am trying out the Vigoro brand from HD for this so hopefully it holds value and who knows, it could be the alternative to the more expensive MGOPM. The contents differ slightly but it could work well.


There is the misconception about not needing to dose with a dirt tank. You don't have to if it is a low tech, low maintenance, and low light tank with low light plants and few stems (primary root feeders). Otherwise, you are better off to dose the water column. The nutrients in the dirt would last from 6 months to 12 months. Obviously, the higher the light and with CO2 you are using, the sooner your dirt would run out of nutrients.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*deep breath and a sigh*

If you feel you *must* rinse, screen and otherwise pick through this material to use it then you bought the wrong stuff! 

Reading the back and forth exchanges in this thread it seems the same arguments of belief and a fair amount of unfounded exaggerations will run forever in the blurbs of any thread that include the Scott's bagged potting mix. 

Q: What is being talked about? A: screening MGOCPM. 
The potting mix contains only a small amount of soil and a very large portion of organic material (55-65% by volume). Listed on the bags as sphagnum peat moss, composted bark fines, leaves, twigs, wood chips and "pasteurized poultry litter" (cooked chicken crap).

Q: What needs to be done to prepare it for tank use? A: NOTHING!

Dumping it from the bag into a bucket and then floating out anything you can strain off you just threw away 55-65% of what you spent money buying :icon_roll.
While floating off those organics and draining off that water you soaked it in you also just drained off most if not all the "pasteurized poultry litter".
(does that really make sense anyone?)
Why buy it in the first place if you intend to throw most of it away? 

Lets hold on to the strongest opinion of proper use voiced here and explain it another way; 
_Recommending that to use it correctly it's best to float off and otherwise remove anything you can and use only the 'heavier dirt's' that remain._

So, if you remove the larger organics being the bark fines, leaves, twigs, wood chips. What did you just do? You just threw away the time release organically bound minerals that would have been available to the plants months down the road after submerged decay released them. 

Soaking or rinsing the material and then draining off the soak water. What did you just do? Soaking it and draining off the water you also drain off most if not all the "pasteurized poultry litter". You just threw away the immediately available nutrient source the mix provided for the plants. 

The long term and short term plant support is removed leaving,,,, what? 
___________________

Paying for the partially composted materials why the heck would you screen any of it out? The reasons for doing so that are expressed in this thread are only opinions, I don't read them as experience based. Floating / soaking it in a bucket prior to use you might as well throw over half of it out and (imo) you bought the wrong stuff. The organics are the time release reserves. The "pasteurized poultry litter" is the starter punch for the plants.

Opinions will always be varied on every tanking topic including what color the sky is LOL. 
To express more than simple opinions as to useful duration on any base material (backed by actual first hand experience's) takes years. Creating a guide for those that read was my hope starting the fraternity of dirt thread. Members reporting the results in journal entries creates a timeline. There are endless ways to tank weeds and fish. 

I have a tank 4 years wet on a single loading of MGOCPM.
Opening the bag what was removed is pictured here.
The the knife pictured is 3 1/2" long.
















I soaked it and screen sifted the material once.
Ended up with about a 3.5g volume in two 5g buckets and concluded later that while it was interesting to do it was a waste of time. 


















The tank this material was used in actually has more growth problems than my other systems. 

If it's smaller than a 2x4 leave it.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

That makes total sense.....but I still want to get rid of the rocks :hihi:

When I first saw that using potting mix was OK, I read one of Diana Walstad's brochures on setting up a shrimp bowl/tank and using this soil. That's where it was "recommended" to remove large chunks...


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## VJM (Feb 9, 2013)

I heartily disagree. I have three Miracle gro tanks, and the number one thing I dislike about them is that when I have to pull something up I get wood chips all over the place. It looks janky, they are too large to get out with a siphon without clogging, and too small to make picking them out one by one anything less than irritating. 

Love my dirt tanks, but screening once, through relatively coarse mesh or colander, really improves the user experience. Just my opinion of course, YMMV.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Hmm, this is an interesting thread as I'm tempted to try this. VJM, how about using a net to grab them?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

VJM said:


> I heartily disagree. I have three Miracle gro tanks, and the number one thing I dislike about them is that when I have to pull something up I get wood chips all over the place. It looks janky, they are too large to get out with a siphon without clogging, and too small to make picking them out one by one anything less than irritating.
> 
> Love my dirt tanks, but screening once, through relatively coarse mesh or colander, really improves the user experience. Just my opinion of course, YMMV.


That is true, I'm pretty finicky and move things around a lot. I didn't screen the first tank I used soil and I did notice that woodchips would end up on the top of my cap quite often.


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## VJM (Feb 9, 2013)

ipkiss said:


> Hmm, this is an interesting thread as I'm tempted to try this. VJM, how about using a net to grab them?


I have tried that, and it might work if I didn't have heavily planted nano tanks. As is, the chips either disappear into the greenery, or I am banging all my plants around chasing the chips. A wee little shrimp catcher net might do it, but I don't have one. 

In fairness, it wasn't until my last tank setup that I got the sand cap thick enough. I am now a big fan of 1:1 substrate and cap ratio. Makes life a lot easier. But thin cap + unscreened Miracle Gro is a PITA.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

wkndracer, thanks for dropping in. I was waiting on ya, what took ya so long, lol. In effort to be part of that dirt fraternity club you came up with I decided it was time to give it a shot. Aquasoil is just too expensive for large and/or multiple tanks. Besides, dirt can work for the vast majority of us. I spent $60 bucks on MGOPM to use for 7-8 tanks. Although the bags size is different, just 6 bags of AS is over $300. The math was simple for me.

Anywho, I didn't throw anything away or soak anything yet. I dual strained 2 handfulls and stopped. I continued just by straining the rest thru the 1/4" cloth. Straining 6 bags gave me one bag of removed bark and wood chips. Should I mix that back in or is it okay to layer it on the very bottom of the already strained mix. Perhaps the added weight being on the bottom can aid in decomposing. Sounds like I won't soak it either then. Once I start the dsm, it won't be flooded for weeks anyways. Its not that my goal was to buy this an then strain/ waste 1/2 of it. I just thought that's what everyone was doing. I just didn't know how much to do. Now I know. Don't do anything. Seems as though I made the mistake you did your first time as well. I thought it was cool to screen too and that I would do some justice for the tank in the long run, but I started wondering if the time spent was worth it.

Tetra thanks for that added info. 6-12 months isn't nearly what I was hoping for. It will get me a nice jump at least. My tanks will be medium-high to high tech so I guess I will be dosing. Straining should probably have be emphasized a bit more in some of the threads pertaining to dirt, for it seems to be some debate. I am really glad I asked now before I got any further.

VJM - I will take note to that 1:1 cap ratio, that's what I was aiming for but hearing that its less of a pita, I will follow it to a tee. I use skewer sticks for planting in my flower beds outside and its the perfect thing to measure dirt/cap while having hills and slopes on top of lava rock elevations.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

tattooedfool83 said:


> Defiantly make sure to always cap the dirt it will float if you don't. This is my first dirted tank and trying it with a 10 gallon tank and I'm probally gonna go with a 10w floodlight led and heavily plant it and see how it goes. Who knows about fauna in there. More so looming to see how the plants do


Thanks. Yeah I understood that part. The aquascaped tanks will definitely be capped. Its the growout that I didn't want to bother capping. I will constantly be uprooting and planting so it seems a though it will be more of a pita to cap it. It will be plants only so I figure I can get away with it. Now if I must cap it I can with something cheap I guess.


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## sadchevy (Jun 15, 2013)

Flight50, for your growout tank, why not use STS(saf-t-sorb) ? Since its only plants, you can lay down some sort of slow release ferts then 2-3 inches of STS. Doesn't make a huge mess when uprooting and planting as long as you are careful. It's cheap, $4.99 a bag at Tractor Supply. It looks good also.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

sadchevy said:


> Flight50, for your growout tank, why not use STS(saf-t-sorb) ? Since its only plants, you can lay down some sort of slow release ferts then 2-3 inches of STS. Doesn't make a huge mess when uprooting and planting as long as you are careful. It's cheap, $4.99 a bag at Tractor Supply. It looks good also.



I don't know about it for one so I can look deeper into it. Thanks for that suggestion. The thing about not capping is that I didn't want to worry about having to be careful with mixing substrate. I live in the city so it will be a bit of a drive to find a tractor store. Doing a quick search for it just now, I will have to drive 20+ miles to get it.

My growout will be in grids. I will have portions designated for certain plants. Its a standard 125g so I have lots of space and if I can get away with it, I was going to let the ground cover stay in the dry start state. While I build baffles and flood the rest of the tank for immersed plants. I have relocated and replanted quite a bit with flourite and I don't see dirt being any cleaner so mess isn't much concern.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

VJM: thanks. I'll keep that into consideration when I set mine up. I think it will qualify as a nano setup too.

flight50: thanks for firing up this thread.


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

wkndracer,

Thanks, you said it better than I could and with a lot more experience to back it up.


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## 2Old4Reefing (Aug 13, 2013)

Good read! Kind of reminds me of some discussions I got involved in over the use of Miracle Mud in refugiums for reef tanks. So this MGOCPM. I get what the MGOC part is, but what's the PM?


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## sadchevy (Jun 15, 2013)

Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix


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## 2Old4Reefing (Aug 13, 2013)

sadchevy said:


> Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix


Hahaha!! Who would have guessed :icon_mrgr Potting Mix.

I got a question, So I like the idea of using this MGOCPM, Plants in the wild just doesn't grow in bare rocks, when you use a cap, how deep should this cap layer be on top of the dirt?


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## sadchevy (Jun 15, 2013)

If you use 2" of dirt, then cap with 1-1.5" substrate of your choice. Lots use pool filter sand or blasting grit. I prefer STS or very small pea gravel. My crypts love it.


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## VJM (Feb 9, 2013)

I like 1:1. I tried a 1:.5 and 1:.75 ratio, but they were headaches. If you need to build up hills and things, do it with other materials so you don't get deep anaerobic pockets. They will create gas that bubbles up through the cap, and makes a mess.


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## 2Old4Reefing (Aug 13, 2013)

sadchevy said:


> If you use 2" of dirt, then cap with 1-1.5" substrate of your choice. Lots use pool filter sand or blasting grit. I prefer STS or very small pea gravel. My crypts love it.


A person wouldn't have guessed that you have dirt in that tank, I might perhaps try first a layer of sand and then a layer on top that of small gravel.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

2Old4Reefing said:


> A person wouldn't have guessed that you have dirt in that tank, I might perhaps try first a layer of sand and then a layer on top that of small gravel.


If your saying cap MG with sand and then cap that with gravel, you might get yourself in trouble. The primary point of capping the dirt is just to hold it down. Using a high cation cap here has good value. It holds nutrients for the roots. If you cap the cap, your trapping the cap and it can't breathe and that will be bad. If your saying cap (1) tank with sand and another tank with gravel then that's okay for your just experimenting with caps. I like the thought of the 1:1 ratio even though I haven't tried it. The heavier the root feeders the more oxygen that will get into the soil so deeper areas won't suffer.


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## 2Old4Reefing (Aug 13, 2013)

flight50 said:


> If your saying cap MG with sand and then cap that with gravel, you might get yourself in trouble. The primary point of capping the dirt is just to hold it down. Using a high cation cap here has good value. It holds nutrients for the roots. If you cap the cap, your trapping the cap and it can't breathe and that will be bad. If your saying cap (1) tank with sand and another tank with gravel then that's okay for your just experimenting with caps. I like the thought of the 1:1 ratio even though I haven't tried it. The heavier the root feeders the more oxygen that will get into the soil so deeper areas won't suffer.


Yes I see, I understand that, makes lots of sense. My thought was that the sand would help to prevent leeching from the dirt and discoloration of the water and the gravel would just look better  OK so forget the double cap idea.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

I wouldn't worry too much about nutrient leaching, if that's what you are referring to...this soil is very low fertilized.

I did notice when I did a dirt tank and PFS that there was some tannin leaching, but it went away pretty quickly with each water change.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

flight50 said:


> wkndracer, thanks for dropping in. I was waiting on ya, what took ya so long, lol.


Reading the replies and seeing the broad range of opinion thought I would throw a comment in the mix. :hihi:
I hear you on the pain substrate costs can inflict on the wallet when it comes to larger tanks. 
Going with any enriched substrate each does have certain things to be considered though going forward. If you tend to change the scape plan often this *IS NOT* a method I would suggest. Plant the tank and manage growth but stay with plant placement long term then it's the shizz, not for a person who wants to move rooted plants once established. I have NEVER done a dry start so can't speak to how the low water volume will effect the bacteria in the base. 

The more material you remove (screening) the shorter the life span of the base. Light drives the bus so indeed high light and CO2 can use up the soil layer faster than without. Simple question of fuel and energy. 
The potting mix layer (imo) should be *no more* than 1.5 to 2" depth starting out. (Giving that as a range of depth understand my normal plan is for using 1.5" but nothing is perfect.) Adding it to the tank dry press the palm of your hand against the soil layer and press down to compress it for the measurement. Depending on the frag size of the capping material I use anywhere from 1-2" and did mix sand and Flourite original on several tanks. Coal slag blasting media mixed with Eco Complete works well as a cap also. 
Round pea gravel, river gravel and the like is something I see as problematic simply based on the shape and texture. 

Each person posting response to this thread has a tanking goal.
Depending on that goal you change how you handle setting up the base.

Long term life support for water weeds you leave the wood chips in the mix. Wanting to move rooted plants around changing the scape or produce rooted plants and remove them,,,, pick another material.


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## Juicy19 (Mar 3, 2009)

Is it still recommended to soak & sift if you are mineralizing top soil? This discussion is solely for those wanting to use MGOCPM, correct?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Juicy19 said:


> Is it still recommended to soak & sift if you are mineralizing top soil? This discussion is solely for those wanting to use MGOCPM, correct?


Correct, a potting mix tank is set up completely different.

NPT/MTS
Mineralized soil is a process that's involves many steps and the end result is a nutrient rich readily available base. NPT or simply dumping the potting mix and dirt in then capping it are the same processes at work only at different times as the same thing happens. It's just a question of where. Mineralizing the dirt the activity of bacteria breaking down the organic compounds releasing the mineral content happens on a tarp in open air. The activity of bacteria breaking down the organic compounds over time creates several changes within the tank that MTS completes first eliminating these shifts from occurring in the aquarium. The conversion of organics and the break down is slowed greatly in the tank because of less available oxygen. The submerged steady state of decay once established in the tank takes about a year to happen. During that time settling or collapse of the organics reduces the thickness of the substrate. This doesn't happen using MTS. The organics have been consumed / converted back to mineral content alone by the bacteria before the dirt ever goes in the tank. Biggest difference between the two, MTS and NPT is where the organics are broken down, in tank or before.


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## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

What about miracle grow organic garden soil?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Biggest differences are that the garden soil has more K and is probably heavier since it's not a potting mix. Not sure if that makes a huge difference for an aquarium though or not.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

The beautiful thing about this hobby is you can make it as complicated or easy as you want. You can make it very expensive or cheap. You can make it very low maintenance or high maintenance. You can make it time consuming or quick. You can make it hard work or effortless.

To each there own. I learned the hard way. These days I'm all about easy, quick, cheap, and low maintenance.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

tattooedfool83 said:


> What about miracle grow organic garden soil?



I have no problems with it. That was what I used on my two dirt tanks, one high tech. The other is low tech. I screened and sifted them.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

tylergvolk said:


> The beautiful thing about this hobby is you can make it as complicated or easy as you want. You can make it very expensive or cheap. You can make it very low maintenance or high maintenance. You can make it time consuming or quick. You can make it hard work or effortless.
> 
> To each there own. I learned the hard way. These days I'm all about easy, quick, cheap, and low maintenance.



I think it is more like being impatient and going the easy route and ending up more work and maintenance down the road...versus...doing everything right from the start and less headaches at the end...


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

In what regard though? I mean, not everyone has the ability to pay upfront for big CO2 or lighting systems but still want to get some benefits out of their plants. Just because you're doing something lower tech doesn't mean you're not doing right from the start.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

jpappy789 said:


> In what regard though? I mean, not everyone has the ability to pay upfront for big CO2 or lighting systems but still want to get some benefits out of their plants. Just because you're doing something lower tech doesn't mean you're not doing right from the start.



Using medium light T5HO fixture with DIY CO2 in a 40g tank??? Either you throw away your T5HO fixture or be prepared to stagger 4 to 6 yeast CO2 bottles.  Not learning about EI dosing and mixing your own dry ferts...you go ahead and dosing with some all in one comprehensive fert liquid solution costing you $15 a bottle. And it only lasts about a month and you aren't even getting the required macro and micro nutrients. There are plenty of examples in this hobby in which people are trying to go cheap and go easy setting up a tank and ending up costing them money and time to try to fix some of the issues. 

Typical issue is getting a very, very high light fixture for their small tank. 2 bulbs T5HO fixture on their 10g, no CO2.  Or 4 bulbs T5HO fixture, equaling over 250w, on their 40g tank. And no CO2. We all have made mistakes like this in the beginning. It is important for us to understand the simple science behind each aspect in setting up a planted tank. So we don't create problems down the road just because we went cheap with the requirement or didn't understand the science correctly.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

wkndracer said:


> Reading the replies and seeing the broad range of opinion thought I would throw a comment in the mix. :hihi:
> I hear you on the pain substrate costs can inflict on the wallet when it comes to larger tanks.
> Going with any enriched substrate each does have certain things to be considered though going forward. If you tend to change the scape plan often this *IS NOT* a method I would suggest. Plant the tank and manage growth but stay with plant placement long term then it's the shizz, not for a person who wants to move rooted plants once established. I have NEVER done a dry start so can't speak to how the low water volume will effect the bacteria in the base.
> 
> ...


I am not a rescaper so I am okay. For the most part after everything is established its stays. Exception is Cabomba. I have trimmed and replanted them. My goal is setup and just maintenance the growth.

I hope dry start works with this. Its only one way to find out. In theory it should work as long as I don't allow the soil to dry out I assume. If it doesn't work out I will just have to flood the tank and be patient for the ground cover to really kick in.

I will definitely add the wood chips back. I want the soil to hang in there for as long as its able to produce results. Thanks for mentioning pressing the soil to compress. I wasn't sure if this was a no no or not. I haven't seen anything on the matter. I guess the cap would flatten non-compressed soil in no time. Pressing it gives not only increases the amount that can be used but there is probably less soil creep as well. I will use the 1:1 ratio as VJM mentioned for it seems logical.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

A little bit in there's mention of doing DSM with this soil, although she uses a bit different "cap"

http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

tattooedfool83 said:


> What about miracle grow organic garden soil?





jpappy789 said:


> Biggest differences are that the garden soil has more K and is probably heavier since it's not a potting mix. Not sure if that makes a huge difference for an aquarium though or not.


The garden soil includes animal manures rather than the sterilized poultry litter. Using the garden soil (bought the wrong MG bag) Cable's water tests registered high ammonia readings through about four water changes if I remember correctly. After that it produced good plant growth and little in the way of complaints following his thread. 


jpappy789 said:


> A little bit in there's mention of doing DSM with this soil, although she uses a bit different "cap"
> http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf


Setting up her tanks and bowls part of the consideration setting things up is the smaller water volume involved.


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## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

Well I screened out the wood chips out of the garden soil and didn't submerge it but added water so it's like mud. But it does stink so I'm hoping once it dries out the smell will go away


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> Using medium light T5HO fixture with DIY CO2 in a 40g tank??? Either you throw away your T5HO fixture or be prepared to stagger 4 to 6 yeast CO2 bottles.  Not learning about EI dosing and mixing your own dry ferts...you go ahead and dosing with some all in one comprehensive fert liquid solution costing you $15 a bottle. And it only lasts about a month and you aren't even getting the required macro and micro nutrients. There are plenty of examples in this hobby in which people are trying to go cheap and go easy setting up a tank and ending up costing them money and time to try to fix some of the issues.
> 
> Typical issue is getting a very, very high light fixture for their small tank. 2 bulbs T5HO fixture on their 10g, no CO2.  Or 4 bulbs T5HO fixture, equaling over 250w, on their 40g tank. And no CO2. We all have made mistakes like this in the beginning. It is important for us to understand the simple science behind each aspect in setting up a planted tank. So we don't create problems down the road just because we went cheap with the requirement or didn't understand the science correctly.


I think we're on the same page. I suppose I meant that if you are aware of the options, and know the limits of going low tech, that it can be simple and easy. 



wkndracer said:


> The garden soil includes animal manures rather than the sterilized poultry litter. Using the garden soil (bought the wrong MG bag) Cable's water tests registered high ammonia readings through about four water changes if I remember correctly. After that it produced good plant growth and little in the way of complaints following his thread.
> 
> Setting up her tanks and bowls part of the consideration setting things up is the smaller water volume involved.


Good to know about the garden soil vs. the PM.

As for the Walstad link, is there something about the DSM that differs when it comes to larger tanks? Any reason why using MGOCPM wouldn't work? I'm genuinely curious.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

jpappy789 said:


> Good to know about the garden soil vs. the PM.
> 
> As for the Walstad link, is there something about the DSM that differs when it comes to larger tanks? Any reason why using MGOCPM wouldn't work? I'm genuinely curious.


The concern I have thinking about it (and this is only informed guesswork) is the elevated O2 in the base that would be possible. Constantly moist and lots of oxygen the bacteria would be in overdrive breaking the organics down. Much faster I think then what is possible when contained within a flooded substrate. Lots of light, lots of available nutrients I think surface algae and molds might be a problem. 

Many, many guides to tanking express caution about limiting the organic content (MG is loaded with it). Aaron's MTS thread has bad things to say regarding organic content. MGOCPM works (imo) for two reasons. 
1st, Relatively low nutrient levels overall (bag listed as 0.10-0.05-0.05). The poultry litter is only added in a small portion so I think plants quickly burn through it. 
2nd, Submerged decay (mineralization) happens at a slower rate overall mainly based on reducing the oxygen available for the bacteria colony. The more rooted plants the more demand for nutrients and the roots supply more oxygen. The more oxygen, the larger the bacteria colony so something of a balanced demand/supply keeping the available excess to a minimum. Limited water circulation and rooted plants is the only path oxygen has to get into the substrate, DSM you add exposure to air.
(just my rambling thoughts)


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Ah, makes sense. Always think of DSM being nice for more access to CO2 but obviously that means more O2 available for decomp too...


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Hmm, perhaps if I want to try dsm with mgocpm, I need to attempt it on a much smaller scale such as a 10g. I was on the assumption that those that are using this version of MG, that they were all doing the dsm. I can try it but if it doesn't work, I know I will just have to set it up traditionally. Plant heavily, flood the tank and kick up the co2. 

Although I have yet to utilize the dsm either, I'd really like to attempt it. I'd hate to encounter possible algae though for that defeats one of the good things about the dsm. My concern not doing a dsm, is will my ground cover survive the initial setup. Most plants bought online seems to be grown emersed in which I will have the deal with the transition phase. I just want to limit my loses. The plan was to only buy 3-4 pots of hc and ug and divide the heck out of it to allow the plant to establish itself quicker. Looks like I'll just have to cross the bridges as I get to them.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

tylergvolk said:


> The beautiful thing about this hobby is you can make it as complicated or easy as you want. You can make it very expensive or cheap. You can make it very low maintenance or high maintenance. You can make it time consuming or quick. You can make it hard work or effortless.
> 
> To each there own. I learned the hard way. These days I'm all about easy, quick, cheap, and low maintenance.


+one.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

wkndracer said:


> The concern I have thinking about it (and this is only informed guesswork) is the elevated O2 in the base that would be possible. Constantly moist and lots of oxygen the bacteria would be in overdrive breaking the organics down. Much faster I think then what is possible when contained within a flooded substrate. Lots of light, lots of available nutrients I think surface algae and molds might be a problem.
> 
> Many, many guides to tanking express caution about limiting the organic content (MG is loaded with it). Aaron's MTS thread has bad things to say regarding organic content. MGOCPM works (imo) for two reasons.
> 1st, Relatively low nutrient levels overall (bag listed as 0.10-0.05-0.05). The poultry litter is only added in a small portion so I think plants quickly burn through it.
> ...


Yes,,you are thinking the right way.
Is why I chuckle at those who fixate on gravel,sand depth, out of fear of gasses that may build up.
Plant's deliver O2 to the substrate,plant root's ,so anaerobic condition's are not easily realized.
Filter creating O2 exchange at surface also hamper's anaerobic condition's.
Much more chance of anaerobic condition occurring inside dirty canister filter that is sealed off from O2 ,but yet many allow this to happen regularly by not performing regular maint on filter. They let the filter go month's between cleaning's.
I have kept fishes in unplanted tank's with four or five inches of sand,and so long as good O2 exchange at surface,the gas (Hydrogen sulfide) is rendered harmless once it comes in contact with oxygen in the water.
No one I know,you know ,has ever been able to attribute harm to life in the aquarium to the dreaded gas boogey man with any concrete evidence,only speculation.
Other's say sand is bad for plant growth, but many grow plant's just fine in all kind's of sand (play sand,pool filter sand,.) 
Must understand that sand is inert so some type of fertilization need's to be applied. Either root tab's,or dosing the water.
Sifting out the floaties in MGOCPM does no harm and is purely up to the person using it .IMHO


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## king kong (Jul 2, 2012)

Well done people. Can I throw another idea out? I love undergravel filtrarion. Could it be possible to install one of these in a dirt tank just for old time sake? Say plastic plate (ugf), sand, dirt and sand/gravel cap?


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'd say no. A big no to planted tanks period for that matter. There is always a pulling action with an undergravel. It goes against benefiting plants and substrate trying to hold nutrients for the plants imo. Only good that can come from an undergravel is the fact that it pulls oxygen down into the substrate. I had one once before in a cichlid tank with fake plants and when I took it out, it wasn't a pretty site on the bottom of the tank.


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