# T5 vs LED



## aqua_rob

Currently I run LED lights on my tanks, AI prime freshwater on 1 and an SBreef on the other. They work fine but it seems like all the really great tanks on here are using T5HO

I am planning on buying a 72 gallon tank from Waterbox and thought I might switch to T5HO. That is until I started looking for bulbs. I'll be damned if I can find anywhere that has a good selection in stock
Was thinking a purple, a truelumen flora, power veg 660 and one more but I couldn't find a single source to get all 

Add on to that I don't REALLY know what I'm looking for and I'm stuck

Where do y'all get bulbs? Any recommendations? I've also considered trying harrisseeds.com/products/41698-4-active-grow-4-tube-red-bloom-spectrum-t5-ho-led-fixture with 2 widespectrum but then I'm right back at LEDs and that kind of defeats the purpose...


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## varanidguy

I've had the same thoughts as well. It seems like the members who have tanks that really pop with vibrant and contrasting colors are using T5HO, but the efficiency of LED's is also really appealing.


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## jeffkrol

varanidguy said:


> I've had the same thoughts as well. It seems like the members who have tanks that really pop with vibrant and contrasting colors are using T5HO, but the efficiency of LED's is also really appealing.


 Has nothing to do w/ LED vs t5 just spectrum vs spectrum..
silly marketing blurb to sort of show the point..
Same tank different "spectrum's" of LED.






Doubt if anyone would have an issue w/ this tank.. 










https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-3pillars.html

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-t5vsled.html


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## aqua_rob

No question there are a few LED lights out there that can produce amazing tanks but they seem to be the exception. There are few if no examples from members here on this forum
Jeff what is your opinion of the harris fixtures/leds linked above? How would spectrum compare to standard T5HO?


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## slipfinger

aqua_rob said:


> Currently I run LED lights on my tanks, AI prime freshwater on 1 and an SBreef on the other. They work fine but it seems like all the really great tanks on here are using T5HO
> 
> I am planning on buying a 72 gallon tank from Waterbox and thought I might switch to T5HO. That is until I started looking for bulbs. I'll be damned if I can find anywhere that has a good selection in stock
> Was thinking a purple, a truelumen flora, power veg 660 and one more but I couldn't find a single source to get all
> 
> Add on to that I don't REALLY know what I'm looking for and I'm stuck
> 
> Where do y'all get bulbs? Any recommendations? I've also considered trying harrisseeds.com/products/41698-4-active-grow-4-tube-red-bloom-spectrum-t5-ho-led-fixture with 2 widespectrum but then I'm right back at LEDs and that kind of defeats the purpose...


I am one of the T5HO guys, don't think I'll ever switch out to an LED unit. Couple of reasons, first I do not like the "shimmer" that LED's create. Second, as you mentioned T5's have been proven by many including myself to grow plants well. Now all these nice tanks you talk about are not due to just the T5 lighting, trust me when I say a lot of work goes into these tanks you speak of. So don't think switching to T5 is going to instantly create a show tank! 

As for where to get bulbs. Of course online, and some of the American guys can help you source them. I'm in Canada and buy all my bulbs including the Power Veg bulbs from my local hydroponics shop. 

This is the combination I am running and have run for a while now. Works for me..... 
Front to Back
Power Veg UVFS
Power Veg 420
Power Veg 633
2700K






jeffkrol said:


> Has nothing to do w/ LED vs t5 just spectrum vs spectrum..
> Doubt if anyone would have an issue w/ this tank..


Just remember the fixture in the above photo is a BML LED and are no longer available. It was and probably still is the gold standard when it comes to LED's for planted tanks. If you can find a used one be prepared to pay the same price as when it was new.


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## jeffkrol

aqua_rob said:


> No question there are a few LED lights out there that can produce amazing tanks but they seem to be the exception. There are few if no examples from members here on this forum
> Jeff what is your opinion of the harris fixtures/leds linked above? How would spectrum compare to standard T5HO?


"Standard" t5ho (ie 6500k based) are about equivalent to the current breed of RGB led's..
now the catch is certain shortcomings of leds part in a lack of a broad based blue range.











Typical "high" CRI 6500k lamp
https://www.carnivorousplants.org/grow/SoilsWaterLight/FluorescentLighting


As to what might be considered "common" among t5 users (w white/cool white/blue/red tube mixes) so it gets more 
err complicated..


The "white" LED one is low K, the other is typical "full spectrum" diodes w/ royal blue pump and a broad spectrum red phosphor.




That light will grow things just fine. Combined low k R/B led will look OK but at a 2:1 ratio of white/r/b
1:1 is OK too..
Most LED people using those "full spectrum" reds suggest pairing w/ higher K whites like 10,000K to look more..err natural
but that's a natural look not a "punchy" look..



Personally I don't buy into "ballast run" LEd's and non-dimmable.
and you don't seem to get a mix/match choice so only this one would be useable on a visual perspective:

https://www.harrisseeds.com/collect...e-grow-4-tube-wide-spectrum-t5-ho-led-fixture


to be honest.. I'd go w/ 2-3 custom light bars from Orphek..
to be real honest, I'd just build my own..
https://orphek.com/or-bar-led-light/
Only need 2 to match wattage..3 is a bonus..
See fun thing about LEd's is the fact that they are lensed.. No hood really needed..
Sadly, those 48" bars run $180 plus I believe you need to add $10 to get them customized..
Truthfully, too expensive for non-dimmable bars.


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## aqua_rob

slipfinger said:


> I am one of the T5HO guys, don't think I'll ever switch out to an LED unit. Couple of reasons, first I do not like the "shimmer" that LED's create. Second, as you mentioned T5's have been proven by many including myself to grow plants well. Now all these nice tanks you talk about are not due to just the T5 lighting, trust me when I say a lot of work goes into these tanks you speak of. So don't think switching to T5 is going to instantly create a show tank!
> 
> As for where to get bulbs. Of course online, and some of the American guys can help you source them. I'm in Canada and buy all my bulbs including the Power Veg bulbs from my local hydroponics shop.
> 
> This is the combination I am running and have run for a while now. Works for me.....
> Front to Back
> Power Veg UVFS
> Power Veg 420
> Power Veg 633
> 2700K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember the fixture in the above photo is a BML LED and are no longer available. It was and probably still is the gold standard when it comes to LED's for planted tanks. If you can find a used one be prepared to pay the same price as when it was new.


Thanks and good call on the hydroponics store, here I've been sitting for hours searching online for bulbs and there's a hydroponic store just down the road from where I work
Looking on their website they have the powerveg 420 and 633. Not sure on the other 2 but I'll be going to see them tomorrow
Thanks

As to the miracle of lighting I understand it's just one component of keeping a beautiful tank, I feel like after the last couple of years working at it I've really dialed in the ferts and CO2 but these damn LEDs just haven't been doing it for me or so I suspect

Jeff thank you for that info. I'm fairly ignorant on lighting and it's nuances so seems it would be a smart decision for me to go with the trusty T5HO option


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## jeffkrol

Hey no problem, I have more against how LED fixures are "designed" than about LED vs t5..



> Power Veg UVFS
> Power Veg 420 basically
> Power Veg 633
> 2700K


It's all in the spectrum..
https://eyehortilux.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/F54T5ho420NMpvHTL-UV.png
https://eyehortilux.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/F54T5ho633NMpvHTL-UV.png
https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/powerveg-family/powerveg-fsuv/


> ANSI RG-2: CAUTION
> 
> Product emits UVA and UVB rays. Possible skin or eye irritation can result from exposures exceeding 30 minutes when working less than 8 inches from the lamp. Use appropriate skin and eye protection.


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## slipfinger

jeffkrol said:


> Hey no problem, I have more against how LED fixures are "designed" than about LED vs t5..
> 
> 
> 
> It's all in the spectrum..
> https://eyehortilux.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/F54T5ho420NMpvHTL-UV.png
> https://eyehortilux.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/F54T5ho633NMpvHTL-UV.png
> https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/powerveg-family/powerveg-fsuv/


No worries, I always wear my sunglasses and sunscreen when ever Im working on the tank.


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## jeffkrol

Not to beat a dead horse, but it's sort of fascinating..


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## burr740

I wish sb reef light had just a little better color. What I see in pics always looks too neony....or something. Those units are getting close to being a good show tank light, some good tanks already have them


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## jeffkrol

burr740 said:


> I wish sb reef light had just a little better color. What I see in pics always looks too neony....or something. Those units are getting close to being a good show tank light, some good tanks already have them



Seems they don't (or I missed it) post their spectrum anymore..


But I did find this thanks to the infinite memory of the internet..Need more channels and really, one can do w/ less if you use better diodes..


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## Greggz

slipfinger said:


> I am one of the T5HO guys, don't think I'll ever switch out to an LED unit. Couple of reasons, first I do not like the "shimmer" that LED's create. Second, as you mentioned T5's have been proven by many including myself to grow plants well. Now all these nice tanks you talk about are not due to just the T5 lighting, trust me when I say a lot of work goes into these tanks you speak of. So don't think switching to T5 is going to instantly create a show tank!
> 
> As for where to get bulbs. Of course online, and some of the American guys can help you source them. I'm in Canada and buy all my bulbs including the Power Veg bulbs from my local hydroponics shop.
> 
> This is the combination I am running and have run for a while now. Works for me.....
> Front to Back
> Power Veg UVFS
> Power Veg 420
> Power Veg 633
> 2700K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just remember the fixture in the above photo is a BML LED and are no longer available. It was and probably still is the gold standard when it comes to LED's for planted tanks. If you can find a used one be prepared to pay the same price as when it was new.


I just flat out agree with every single thing said above.

Most of the best tanks I follow still use T5.

And that's not just here, it's all over the world. It seems to be a common denominator.

Not to say you can't have a great tank with LED. But to get the coverage, PAR, color, and plant growth from LED is a major investment. T5 is easy to set up and it just flat out works.

And like Burr and Slipfinger said, no question it is more pleasing to my eye. Warmer and no shimmer. 

But who knows, maybe I am just an old fuddy duddy........but I am pretty sure that very soon T5 will be like tube amps, vinyl, and Polaroids........all the cool kids will be wanting them!!!!:grin2:

P.S. PM me for sources of bulbs


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## somewhatshocked

jeffkrol said:


> Not to beat a dead horse, but it's sort of fascinating..
> https://youtu.be/na63U1aQixo


You're not beating a dead horse. You're repeatedly (thank you!) trying to get people to stop spreading misinformation about light-emitting diodes. 

It really is all about spectrum. 

Anyone who thinks LEDs are too expensive should check prices and quality from a decade ago - was a nightmare then. My mind is constantly blown on a daily basis now that fixtures are better, cheaper and more attainable.

Some people are just always going to be set in their ways and resistant to change.

For those who dislike the shimmer effect: there are ways to mitigate that.



aqua_rob said:


> No question there are a few LED lights out there that can produce amazing tanks but they seem to be the exception. There are few if no examples from members here on this forum


That's... what? Would encourage you to actually put in a bit of effort and read through some of the thousands of tank journals here, on YouTube, other social media channels before making such a wild claim. 

I know you don't mean it as a joke but I certainly got a good laugh out of it. Plenty of amazing tanks lit by LEDs that produce equal or better results.


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## slipfinger

somewhatshocked said:


> Plenty of amazing tanks lit by LEDs that produce equal or better results.


This all comes down to personal preference of course. You might think a tank is amazing be it T5 or LED I might think it sucks. 

I like "dutch" tanks and I have yet to see in my opinion too many great dutch tanks full of demanding stems grown with LED..


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## Quagulator

Why not both? lol


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## somewhatshocked

Yes, that's how life works - we all have our preferences when it comes to stuff like this. 

I don't believe anyone is looking very hard if they can't find amazing tanks lit with LEDs. Click right on over here to the Tank Journals section. More than 13,000 journals. Spend a little time there and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.



slipfinger said:


> This all comes down to personal preference of course. You might think a tank is amazing be it T5 or LED I might think it sucks.
> 
> I like "dutch" tanks and I have yet to see in my opinion too many great dutch tanks full of demanding stems grown with LED..


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## Greggz

slipfinger said:


> This all comes down to personal preference of course. You might think a tank is amazing be it T5 or LED I might think it sucks.
> 
> I like "dutch" tanks and I have yet to see in my opinion too many great dutch tanks full of demanding stems grown with LED..


Agreed.

If you look at the last 5 years of the AGA Dutch category, 14 of the 15 1st/2nd/3rd place winners use T5HO. 

Basically all of what I would consider to be the Dutch masters use T5HO. It's the rule not the exception. 

Now that being said, no question there are loads of great tanks that use LED. I get it, it's mainstream now. It just seems all of the highest end "Dutch" type tanks don't. And like @slipfinger that happens to be where my interest lies.

And my tank is in no way Dutch, as I've just got a fish tank with plants, but the tanks I seek out and learn from are very much "Dutch" influenced, and utilize T5HO by a wide margin.


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## somewhatshocked

I think a lot of the folks who win are also, generally, longtime scapers or scapers with decent experience under their belt. They're using equipment they've had for quite some time. Would imagine most of them haven't yet seen a need to switch - in part because of their own preferences - and wouldn't want to switch until equipment starts failing or there's a major financial advantage.

It really does take a lot of practice to get good, so it makes sense to me that few newcomers win. As new folks gain experience, I bet we'll start to see more winners with LED setups. As tank lights improve on the LED front, that can only mean good things for us all. 

Regardless, I'm always impressed with what people produce in their tank journals. Encourage everyone to spend time scrolling through them when they get the chance because it's really enjoyable. Also a fun way to track advances in lighting tech without having to buy it.


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## Streetwise

Yes, everyone with a tank journal is hoping that someone chimes in and says, "that's my goal", or "how did you do that?".

l love this forum.

Cheers

PS: I am being enthusiastic and not sarcastic.


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## Hendy8888

I really like LED's and think they have improved greatly in the past little while. They need to go a little farther for large tanks though. Nature scape with all green plants LED would be my top choice I think.

Pros
Love the shimmer
Tuning spectrum
Integrated timers
DIMMING!!
Low heat

Cons
Hot spots on 4ft + tanks due to fixture size
Needing multiple fixtures on 4ft + tanks
Spectrum has only been figured out by a small percentage of companies.
Cost (I'm cheap)
Sorry to say but alot of fixtures are just ugly.
Mounting options are limited, no I don't want a fixture sitting right on top of a large rimless tank with legs.
Spread is horrible.

Love the colour spectrum of ADA, Twinstar, ONF. On small tanks the ONF and Twinstar look really good with legs and look okay so close to the top. On a 4ft tank I don't think they sell a product that fits even with multiples.

ADA is the cats meow for spectrum and looks great with 2 on a 4 ft. No way I could ever justify the price though. Even with all the good they still have weak spread with hot spots solely because their pendants.

AI, EcoTech, and GHL all look great with their mounting systems, still suffer from spread issues and I'm not sold that their spectrum is pleasing to me yet. I feel the freshwater versions are not the focus and just miss the mark. They are quite capable to be hung well above the tank which I like.

I really like the aesthetic's of the Giesemann futura s freshwater. Full width fixture to match the size of the tank, looks more like a traditional T5 fixture. No idea about anything else with it but that's what a 4ft tank LED fixture should look like to me. 

Unfortunately, I still would choose a $200 used t5ho (dimmable preferred) that some reef guy is offloading because he's forking out big money to go LED. 

With all that said I really am not well versed in LED's and would like any advice from the more experienced. What would you recommend given my pro/cons, don't worry about price because the used T5 is still cheaper.

Tank is 4ft x 2ft, high light, has to be sexy.


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## jeffkrol

Hendy8888 said:


> Tank is 4ft x 2ft, high light, has to be sexy.



Define "sexy"..
Steampunk 

modern
Victorian
Tech (bells and whistles )


https://orphek.com/atlantik-v4-planted-freshwater-aquariums-led-light/
Good thing:
2x4 fw should be no problem in intensity and coverage.
Bad thing: Overpriced..


2-3 AI Primes ca look sexy.. hung right..
Lot cheaper (but not cheap) than Orphek.
note AI Primes just released new models.


Thing is both these brands have such a wide latitude of look it's really hard to say that the color isn't to ones liking..
https://imgur.com/gallery/gBa9B


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## varanidguy

burr740 said:


> I wish sb reef light had just a little better color. What I see in pics always looks too neony....or something. Those units are getting close to being a good show tank light, some good tanks already have them


Yeah, I was contemplating giving the SB Reef offering a shot on my 40 breeder, but I'm not completely sold one of their units would be better than simply replacing one of my fixtures with a second Fluval 3.0, and with the proper shopping, the Fluval is about 1/3 of the cost (give or take).


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## Maryland Guppy

LED's will eventually rule the aquarium world.
They are not commercially where they should be right now.


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## Hendy8888

jeffkrol said:


> Define "sexy"..
> Steampunk
> 
> modern
> Victorian
> Tech (bells and whistles )
> 
> 
> https://orphek.com/atlantik-v4-planted-freshwater-aquariums-led-light/
> Good thing:
> 2x4 fw should be no problem in intensity and coverage.
> Bad thing: Overpriced..
> 
> 
> 2-3 AI Primes ca look sexy.. hung right..
> Lot cheaper (but not cheap) than Orphek.
> note AI Primes just released new models.
> 
> 
> Thing is both these brands have such a wide latitude of look it's really hard to say that the color isn't to ones liking..
> https://imgur.com/gallery/gBa9B
> 
> https://youtu.be/XkxAcDI8RNQ


Thanks jeffkrol, I really appreciate your knowledge on the subject. I would say in this case it means modern to match the stand.

I'm going to highlight my personal flaws in each product not to be argumentative but to really see if there is a perfect choice for my application.

Orphik Atlantik v4

I want to love it but mounting and overall look seems off. Dare I say its too small of a profile for it's shape? Here is an example of a local reef (Elder1945 on reef2reef) that I think the fixture fails to add anything to the overall look and makes it look bottom heavy.


It is clearly a salt water fixture that they made a freshwater version, the single freshwater picture on their site trying to sell me is very unimpressive colour wise. It is very hard to find any examples of users or even company tanks using the old Google search. I have a suspicion the reds fall flat but couldn't find any support for my claim because it seems no one uses them for freshwater.

Everything else about it checks my boxes though.

AI prime

Red's are flat, another reef light that they tweaked to have a freshwater version. The lotus and other reds in their promotional tank you linked are completely washed out. 

Filipe Oliveria used them on Aquafloras 1400L show tank and others, while getting better they arn't in the same league as ADA and Twinstars colour. They do give a nice natural look that some may perfer.

They defentantly look sexy with the mounting bars from the back of the tank. I like the aesthetics but again hot spots inside the tank.

Radion's

I follow most of Dimtry's builds ever since I found his reef tanks on my local aquarium forum (absolutely amazing). This freshwater build that EcoTech clearly sponsors highlights the misunderstanding of these companies when it comes to planted tanks.

Just like their product they chose a reef expert to showcase their "plant" light. I found it hard to believe that a company of EcoTech's stature wouldn't want to find professional aquascapers to sponsor tank builds using their lights just like AI does.

As far as I can tell Radion's are very similar to the Primes just black instead of white. They suffer from the same issues, as you can see in the video washed out reds and highly visible hot spots under each puck.

That tank looks to be aquascaped in the centre to help offset the uneven light distribution. I was surprised by the PAR values he was saying and assume the lights are not on full. I assume those pucks are very strong and maybe would give 150+ PAR directly under them all day long at that height. I'm sure they can?

I have to add that leaving that protein film on in the video really spoke volumes to the inexperience EcoTech has with planted tanks. Nothing against Dimtry, you can tell he's learning a ton and has done an amazing job on that tank. My take away is that Ecotech offers a reef light adjusted to "grow" plants. I want them to put in R&D to create a 100% plant light just like they have done for reefs. It could be a truly amazing product. 

Okay I'm done whining and have come to the realization I want Twinstar and AI/EcoTech to have a baby. Colour of Twinstar and power/adjustability of AI/EcoTech.

That BML on Dennis' tank has both colour and power but fixture aesthetics....it's lacking.


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## jeffkrol

Tough crowd.. 


UNSTitan..
Titan 1 Premium Aquarium RGB LED Light For Planted Tanks - Ultum Nature Systems

Except for the adj. part..
I number crunched the NEW IA Prime.. It's pretty good w/ red and not sure one can go totally off photos..

RGB only fixtures will always look punchier due to lack of intermediate tones or white "washout"..

You're moving to DIY.. 
more aluminum, lose the suspension bar.....


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## Hendy8888

jeffkrol said:


> Tough crowd..


Haha, you bet! Don't get me wrong, I think these are all amazing lights but for the price of any new light it better meet all my needs. 

That UNS looks sweet, for my purposes it's the same as the ADA. Would it kill them both to make a 4 ft version? Not to mention no integrated timer and dimmer?!? What year is this?

I was really close to making a DIY led years ago, I think it would be a great project. There's lots of quality builds but very few that I would say are commercially polished looking. Instead I picked up a used Sfiligoi T5HO and gave it a coat of paint to match my stand. I do wish it had integrated timers and dimming though.

I agree LED's are the future, if those RGB fixtures were twice as bright with a dimmer and came in 2ft,3ft,4ft sizes they can easily replace a t5ho on any tank. It's only a matter of time.


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## SingAlongWithTsing

ADA RGB





not sure which led unit this guy is using





pretty sure this is a mix of DIY and Twinstar or Chihiros





think he was using UNS Titans on this








https://www.instagram.com/p/B31VvpTpGTR/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

greenaqua has a bunch of nice tanks under leds, occasionally there'll be a t5ho set up iirc
https://www.youtube.com/user/viktorlantos/videos

Here's my tank under the old 16" SBReefs. Video was shot on a Sony Cyber Shot DSC-WX50





the aquascaping illuminati has been holding IIAC and CIAC in higher regards than IAPLC as of late







jeffkrol said:


> Seems they don't (or I missed it) post their spectrum anymore..
> 
> 
> But I did find this thanks to the infinite memory of the internet..Need more channels and really, one can do w/ less if you use better diodes..


Here's the one for their old 16" model

other info in my spread sheet in my sig

edit: there's a UNS clone or UNS is a re-brand of the WEEKAQUA ARK style by Zhuhai on alibaba

personally, I'm just waiting for more people to produce LED T5HO retrofit bulbs lol. get the advantage of both types


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## Greggz

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> personally, I'm just waiting for more people to produce LED T5HO retrofit bulbs lol. get the advantage of both types


Henry your tank looks great in the video above. Very, very nice.

And no doubt there are lots of equally great tanks using LED. That is not in dispute. The reason I sometimes jump in to defend to T5HO is that there are those who think that there is no other option than LED. The fact is there are still loads of serious planted tankers/aquascapers who choose to use T5HO. 

I think @Hendy8888 did an excellent job of summing up the differences. Believe me, if I thought I could duplicate what I have with T5HO, I would do it. Like I said earlier, I love gadgets and see the appeal that is for sure. No doubt to me that some day I will be using them. To me, they just have to get better.

So while this topic is always interesting, there really is no right or wrong answer. You will never convince a T5HO user that LED's are as good, and the same goes the other way. The happy LED user doesn't understand why anyone would use old technology like T5HO. In the end, makes little difference to me which anyone uses, it's the results that count. 

And we can take turns showing beautiful tanks with both all day, and you have some good examples above of LED tanks. Just so folks know, loads of T5HO tanks out there as well.......just a quick sampling. I could do this all day. They are easy to find. Not to mention a bunch right here on this forum too.

Paulina Zagórowska









Narcis Bratulescu









Marian Sterian









Buculei Romeo









Apetrei Mihai









Adrian Botoncea


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## Deanna

This is a good thread, for me, at this particular moment. I have been using LED’s for about 9 years, beginning with the mainly reef-driven ones that were initially the focus (great algae growers!) and, for the last several years, have been using a combination of a Beamswork DA FSPEC and two GroBeam 600’s. I’m watching what appears to be an even greater improvement in just the last year or so. However, I am now at a crossroads and am throwing the T5’s back into consideration (and I carelessly threw my old reflector out about 8 years ago).

I recently noted a significant drop in output in the Beamswork (so gradual that I missed it until I took some PAR readings recently) and have concluded that these lower priced models are risky. So, I’m looking at either a Twinstar S or Fluval 3.0 - maybe a combination. However, although it’s not dramatically noticeable, I’ve grown a little weary of the shimmer effect. Plus, I’m getting a general impression that, despite LED dispersion advances, the T5’s may still provide the best bath of light, but I've not had any difficulty with plant performance when my LED's were at their peak performance.

Although pretty pictures don’t help me (they are usually the peak of a brief moment when everything is perfect), I do like the friendly comparisons that are being offered and would be interested in other angles that anyone has to offer. In the meantime, although I am leaning toward the above two LED’s, I would be interested in your offer, @Greggz (and other T5 users), to PM me about your recommendations for T5 bulbs, reflectors and bulb arrangements.

Keep this thread going!


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## Greggz

Deanna said:


> In the meantime, although I am leaning toward the above two LED’s, I would be interested in your offer, @Greggz (and other T5 users), to PM me about your recommendations for T5 bulbs, reflectors and bulb arrangements.
> 
> Keep this thread going!


Here's the thing. T5HO bulbs come in a variety of colors, and a variety of PAR intensities.

So the tricky part is finding the combination that provides you the PAR and color you are looking for. As to PAR, a four bulb set up could provide anywhere from medium to VERY high light, depending on the bulbs and distance from the substrate.

With a typical 4 bulb set up, a good combination might be a good red and blue bulb (Powerveg 420,633,660), combined with a daylight and flora bulb. In general, most heavily colored bulbs are lower PAR, so you can mix in some high PAR bulbs like Giesemann Super Flora or Tropic to get the PAR up. 

But really, it's a matter of personal taste, and what looks the best to your eye.

A little while back I tested and posted pics of a variety of combinations (link below). As you will see, the bulb combination can make the same tank look quite different, not to mention the effect on PAR.

FWIW, my current mix is the following, which creates about 135 PAR at the substrate. I can change the PAR quite a bit by just changing out one or two bulbs, and raising or lowering the fixture just a bit. 

Giesemann Super Flora
Giesemann Tropic
Giesemann Super Purple
Powerveg 660
Truelumen Flora
Truelumen Flora


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1020497-greggz-120g-rainbow-fish-tank-almost-back-normal-10-12-2019-a-171.html#post11220149


----------



## Hendy8888

Deanna said:


> Although pretty pictures don’t help me (they are usually the peak of a brief moment when everything is perfect), I do like the friendly comparisons that are being offered and would be interested in other angles that anyone has to offer. In the meantime, although I am leaning toward the above two LED’s, I would be interested in your offer, @Greggz (and other T5 users), to PM me about your recommendations for T5 bulbs, reflectors and bulb arrangements.
> 
> Keep this thread going!


Here are lots of bulb combos from Greggz and myself. I should really see if @burr740 and @slipfinger or anyone else would care to post their favorite bulb combo in this thread. 50/50 midday and flora type bulb is a good mix thats not wild.
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/to...9&share_fid=4235&share_type=t&link_source=app


----------



## burr740

4 Bulb combo I like

3000K - nice warm tone and plants love it
Powerveg 633/660 - Intense red bulb
ATI purple or similar - strong blue - or 420 Actinic for stronger blue
Pink Flora type - Giesemann super flora, TruLumen flora, Zoomed Flora sun, etc


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> 3000K - nice warm tone and plants love it


What 3000K bulb do you like........I'm always looking to add to my collection.:grin2:


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> What 3000K bulb do you like........I'm always looking to add to my collection.:grin2:


Plantmax, a few came with one of the T5 units. They're extremely bright on the par meter and hold up well even after a couple years. They're not always easy to find individually. Other hydroponic brands are probably similar.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Plantmax, a few came with one of the T5 units. They're extremely bright on the par meter and hold up well even after a couple years. They're not always easy to find individually. Other hydroponic brands are probably similar.


Ah yes the Plantmax. I have a few of them, and they illustrate a point.

I took readings a while back of a bunch of different bulbs. About 2" below the water surface and 1' from the fixture.

Both the Plantmax and Powerveg 660 will add red color, but the PAR from the Plantmax was 87 vs. 55 from the Powerveg. And then you take a bulb like the Giesemannn Super Flora which measured at 133 PAR and begin to see how the bulb mix can produce lots of different PAR levels.


----------



## Deanna

Thanks to all regarding the T5 detail. Will be considering them.



Greggz said:


> Here's the thing. T5HO bulbs come in a variety of colors, and a variety of PAR intensities.
> 
> So the tricky part is finding the combination that provides you the PAR and color you are looking for. As to PAR, a four bulb set up could provide anywhere from medium to VERY high light, depending on the bulbs and distance from the substrate.


This goes to the heart of the matter. Before entering the LED world, I did have a two-bulb arrangement. Trying to find the right color and performance to suit my tastes was the difficult part, so all of the above guides and @Hendy8888s' link will help in reducing that risk. I found that LED's did make it easier to achieve that balance.

Do any of you have an opinion/observation about availability and cost of the T5's? specifically, if it is a shrinking market (as some are reporting), are you finding it more and more difficult to find them and are costs rising?


----------



## houstonreef

Hendy8888 said:


> I really like LED's and think they have improved greatly in the past little while. They need to go a little farther for large tanks though. Nature scape with all green plants LED would be my top choice I think.
> 
> Pros
> Love the shimmer
> Tuning spectrum
> Integrated timers
> DIMMING!!
> Low heat
> 
> Cons
> Hot spots on 4ft + tanks due to fixture size
> Needing multiple fixtures on 4ft + tanks
> Spectrum has only been figured out by a small percentage of companies.
> Cost (I'm cheap)
> Sorry to say but alot of fixtures are just ugly.
> Mounting options are limited, no I don't want a fixture sitting right on top of a large rimless tank with legs.
> Spread is horrible.
> 
> Love the colour spectrum of ADA, Twinstar, ONF. On small tanks the ONF and Twinstar look really good with legs and look okay so close to the top. On a 4ft tank I don't think they sell a product that fits even with multiples.
> 
> ADA is the cats meow for spectrum and looks great with 2 on a 4 ft. No way I could ever justify the price though. Even with all the good they still have weak spread with hot spots solely because their pendants.
> 
> AI, EcoTech, and GHL all look great with their mounting systems, still suffer from spread issues and I'm not sold that their spectrum is pleasing to me yet. I feel the freshwater versions are not the focus and just miss the mark. They are quite capable to be hung well above the tank which I like.
> 
> I really like the aesthetic's of the Giesemann futura s freshwater. Full width fixture to match the size of the tank, looks more like a traditional T5 fixture. No idea about anything else with it but that's what a 4ft tank LED fixture should look like to me.
> 
> Unfortunately, I still would choose a $200 used t5ho (dimmable preferred) that some reef guy is offloading because he's forking out big money to go LED.
> 
> With all that said I really am not well versed in LED's and would like any advice from the more experienced. What would you recommend given my pro/cons, don't worry about price because the used T5 is still cheaper.
> 
> Tank is 4ft x 2ft, high light, has to be sexy.


I used to have 2 x Twinstar 60cm on my 120G and they are not good enough for spreading. it should be 2 more of them to cover the whole tank. In the end i swaped them out for ATI dimmable 6 T5 bulbs 48" and i get plenty of light to play with.


----------



## jeffkrol

houstonreef said:


> I used to have 2 x Twinstar 60cm on my 120G and they are not good enough for spreading. it should be 2 more of them to cover the whole tank. In the end i swaped them out for ATI dimmable 6 T5 bulbs 48" and i get plenty of light to play with.





> Twinstar - LED Light - 600ES 66W total 4600 lumens



Yea replacing 66W of lighting w/ 324W of light usually gives you room to spare.. 

Even 4 Twinstars can't quite compete w/ that amount of power..


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol
what do you think about LED lens degree choices and recommendations?


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> jeffkrol
> what do you think about LED lens degree choices and recommendations?


mostly depends on mounting height and tank depth..


----------



## Greggz

houstonreef said:


> I used to have 2 x Twinstar 60cm on my 120G and they are not good enough for spreading. it should be 2 more of them to cover the whole tank. In the end i swaped them out for ATI dimmable 6 T5 bulbs 48" and i get plenty of light to play with.


With 6 bulbs you have lots of options.

My set up is not dimmable, but I have control over three banks of light (front x 2, middle x 2, back x 2).

Right now I am running them all full blast for 8 hours. But if I wanted to, I could turn on each bank separately and create a ramp up/ramp down effect. For instance, at one time I was running one bank for 1 hour, then 2 banks for another hour, all three banks for four hours, then ramp it back down the same way. Having a smart strip makes it pretty easy.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> jeffkrol
> what do you think about LED lens degree choices and recommendations?


 Bit more.. Him and I generally see eye to eye on most things..


see "spread"..

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-3pillars.html
Unfortunately (sort of) most common lights are the close to water surface type...........

Ideally and especially w/ "blended" arrays narrow angle lenses and lights hung high enough to just put all the light into the tank as opposed to spilling all over..
This is somewhat easier to control than say w/ t5's due to the fact most LED's START at 120 degrees as opposed to 360 and reflector..


----------



## houstonreef

Greggz said:


> With 6 bulbs you have lots of options.
> 
> My set up is not dimmable, but I have control over three banks of light (front x 2, middle x 2, back x 2).
> 
> Right now I am running them all full blast for 8 hours. But if I wanted to, I could turn on each bank separately and create a ramp up/ramp down effect. For instance, at one time I was running one bank for 1 hour, then 2 banks for another hour, all three banks for four hours, then ramp it back down the same way. Having a smart strip makes it pretty easy.


ATI can be programmed with similar effects like yours. After this tank i set up a 30G and was considered UNS LED fixture, 24" but i finally got another ATI 24'' dimmable x 4 bulbs and i am happy with it.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Yea replacing 66W of lighting w/ 324W of light usually gives you room to spare..
> 
> Even 4 Twinstars can't quite compete w/ that amount of power..


I forgot the model but they were the latest one on the market now of Twinstar.


----------



## Streetwise

Is there a freshwater replacement for a Current USA 2025?


----------



## makeme

[quoteBut who knows, maybe I am just an old fuddy duddy........but I am pretty sure that very soon T5 will be like tube amps, vinyl, and Polaroids........all the cool kids will be wanting them!!!!][/quote]
@Greggz...your reference to tube amps has me wondering if you are an audiophile on the side?


----------



## Edward

makeme said:


> But who knows, maybe I am just an old fuddy duddy........but I am pretty sure that very soon T5 will be like tube amps, vinyl, and Polaroids........all the cool kids will be wanting them!!!! @Greggz...your reference to tube amps has me wondering if you are an audiophile on the side?


I agree with you 100%. 
The T5HO are now on the same stage as the vacuum tubes, metal casings and glass later and Polaroid. We can add germanium and selenium semiconductors, Video-2000, VHS, one foot video disc, Beta video, and so many other technologies, don’t forget the legendary 5.25” floppy discs. But I still use 250W HQI 10K metal halides because they are spectacular just like the T5HO are. We cannot get rid of them because they work so well. The “new” trend of the forgotten 1980’s disco lights in the form of today’s RGB LEDs is not for everyone. But you are right, one day, we will have to give up the good stuff and go with what the corporations want to push on us, so they can make money on the so called progress. Unfortunately, that’s the way the world works.


----------



## Greggz

makeme said:


> @Greggz...your reference to tube amps has me wondering if you are an audiophile on the side?


Was but not so much anymore.

Have succumbed to digital. Sold what I had and was shocked by how much folks gladly paid. 

Definitely a correlation with the LED vs T5HO arguments.


----------



## Edward

Because analog specs are unlimited, unlike digital.


----------



## varanidguy

Edward said:


> Because analog specs are unlimited, unlike digital.




I would argue, when it comes to picture at least, digital is superior to analog. Sound? There’s a case for vinyl. My brother has a massive and growing vinyl collection and I love the music it produces, considering starting my own record collection.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Streetwise

I still have my two Technics 1200s from 1993, and sixteen crates of vinyl. Format wars are stupid, but vinyl is fun to DJ.


----------



## Edward

Analog circuitry can be designed to handle single electron speed, something digital design have no idea about.


----------



## Deanna

Edward said:


> I agree with you 100%.
> The T5HO are now on the same stage as the vacuum tubes, metal casings and glass later and Polaroid. We can add germanium and selenium semiconductors, Video-2000, VHS, one foot video disc, Beta video, and so many other technologies, don’t forget the legendary 5.25” floppy discs. But I still use 250W HQI 10K metal halides because they are spectacular just like the T5HO are. We cannot get rid of them because they work so well. The “new” trend of the forgotten 1980’s disco lights in the form of today’s RGB LEDs is not for everyone. But you are right, one day, we will have to give up the good stuff and go with what the corporations want to push on us, so they can make money on the so called progress. Unfortunately, that’s the way the world works.


Mmmmm ..I took a renewed hard look at the T5 and metal halide options, but just pulled the trigger on the Twinstar S. Didn't want to go back to ballasts. While T5's will probably be readily available a while longer (before I need a new fixture), if the Twinstar is any better than my current setup (and it seems light years ahead - pun intended), I'll have to significantly dampen it to avoid gardening constantly. I crossed over to the dark side (LED's) about 8 years ago and find they do the job. Also amazed at the rapid progress in the field but, maybe I shouldn't be. When they outlawed my 60 W incandescent light bulbs, I stocked up on them (still have about 30 packs). Problem is that the LED versions improved so rapidly that I can't tell a difference anymore, so the stock just sits there. Same thing seems to be happening in our little planted tank world but, I guess, hydroponics are actually driving it.

I still have my good ole transistor pocket radio (10 transistors - high tech!) and it still works. Problem is that they don't play "A Hard Day's Night" on it anymore. IMO, the biggest problem with "remastered" (which is bad) for digital is that they all want to make it "hot" so it's all compressed - destroying the dynamic range. If you do a needle drop from vinyl, onto digital, you can keep a lot of that warmth to which we are accustomed.


----------



## Streetwise

When I was working at a record store, and buying all that vinyl (techno, house, ambient, tech-house), I also bought the same stuff on CD. One was an analog slow-consumable that was only to be used for special occasions, and the other was a permanent record of the music I loved. The digital stuff is in my pocket, but I have not played a record in almost two decades. However, I will never sell, and I will beat match again.

Cheers


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Streetwise said:


> I still have my two Technics 1200s from 1993, and sixteen crates of vinyl. Format wars are stupid, but vinyl is fun to DJ.


I still have a Victor model VV-XI to play 78's. :grin2:


----------



## Streetwise

Don't make me check the age on my parents' Victrola!

I was a good local tech-house DJ in Boulder, and then I remembered that I was an introvert.

So IT and aquariums for me.


----------



## Edward

Deanna said:


> I still have my good ole transistor pocket radio (10 transistors - high tech!) and it still works. Problem is that they don't play "A Hard Day's Night" on it anymore. IMO, the biggest problem with "remastered" (which is bad) for digital is that they all want to make it "hot" so it's all compressed - destroying the dynamic range. If you do a needle drop from vinyl, onto digital, you can keep a lot of that warmth to which we are accustomed.


 When there was an analog sound compression implemented, it was to make it compatible with smaller speaker systems, you know, so they don’t boom and destroy themselves. But digital compression is to make the hardware cheaper for the masses. And sadly, most of them do comply.


----------



## Edward

---------------



Maryland Guppy said:


> I still have a Victor model VV-XI to play 78's. :grin2:


That model used nails as needles to play records!

I still have few Dual turntables and my favorite advanced PS-X75 computer controlled Biotracer turn table, as they called it in the ancient times. So Vivaldi baroque vinyl, metal halide and T5HO still rule the world, don’t they?


----------



## Streetwise

Can I now please get a reply on my old 2025 light? Either a freshwater swap-out, or I give it away to a reefer.

Please.


----------



## varanidguy

Streetwise said:


> Can I now please get a reply on my old 2025 light? Either a freshwater swap-out, or I give it away to a reefer.
> 
> Please.




Well, marine corals require a different spectrum from freshwater plants. I’d say you’re better off using a plant-specific light.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Greggz

Maryland Guppy said:


> I still have a Victor model VV-XI to play 78's. :grin2:


My Denon Rosewood direct drive turntable was one of the last to go. And don't get me started on the stylus. 

Taking a vinly record out and dropping the needle for the first time........a magical experience.

Played through a McIntosh vacuum tube amp and some Klipsch horns....now we are talking!!:icon_mad:


----------



## Edward

Streetwise said:


> Can I now please get a reply on my old 2025 light? Either a freshwater swap-out, or I give it away to a reefer.
> 
> Please.


 Yeah, EL34 is a 70 year old audio vacuum tube that still rules the world. Can I make it more relevant?


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Edward said:


> ---------------
> 
> 
> That model used nails as needles to play records!
> 
> I still have few Dual turntables and my favorite advanced PS-X75 computer controlled Biotracer turn table, as they called it in the ancient times.


Not really a nail but a small brad maybe? >
We won't discuss the Edison talking machines that played the cylinders here! :grin2:


----------



## Streetwise

varanidguy said:


> Well, marine corals require a different spectrum from freshwater plants. I’d say you’re better off using a plant-specific light.


Let me rephrase. I have a fixture with this bulb, from my saltwater time. Is there a freshwater bulb that would fit, or will this fixture only work for saltwater? I feel like I should just give it away.


----------



## RLee

Streetwise said:


> Let me rephrase. I have a fixture with this bulb, from my saltwater time. Is there a freshwater bulb that would fit, or will this fixture only work for saltwater? I feel like I should just give it away.


Take a pic of the bulb specifically the end or ends that plug into the wires. I can't find any info on that unit.
If memory serves I think you may have an old SunPaq CF "compact florescent". You can still find those bulbs around. They came in 2 pin configs, Square and InLine. They made a 10,000k - 6,700k bulb that would work fine for freshwater.
I found it the bulb #2025 is a 10,000k -Actinic 40 watt you would want the #2024 which it the 10,000k-6,700k 40 watt. There is a guy on fleabay that has 4 
"#2024 Current-USA SUNPAQ 40w daylight Fluorescent Lamp Aquarium Light Bulb"


----------



## Streetwise

RLee said:


> Take a pic of the bulb specifically the end or ends that plug into the wires. I can't find any info on that unit.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1299317-freshwater-replacement-40w-smartpaq.html

Maybe they are too old. The fixture and bulb are from a salt-water tank flooded by Irene in 2011. I just want to know if I should give them away.


----------



## jeffkrol

RLee said:


> Take a pic of the bulb specifically the end or ends that plug into the wires. I can't find any info on that unit.





Streetwise said:


> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1299317-freshwater-replacement-40w-smartpaq.html
> 
> Maybe it is too old. This was from a salt-water tank flooded by Irene in 2011. I just want to know if I should just give this away.



compact flourescent..40w/ actinic/10000k dual

Current USA 40W SmartPaq Compact Fluorescent Lamp, 2025, Aquarium Fluorescent Light


Can't see the pin out very well.. nor any dimensions..

Need more info.


Never mind found the specs..

BUT there are 3 bulbs orig. available.
https://www.current-usa.com/files/SunPaq_Spec_Sheet.pdf


2024 is the closest freshwater lamp.. suspect it is near impossible to find.


As to off brand 10G bases in that tube config.. Also seems hard to find..
https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-pin-plug-in-compact-fluorescents/


most still available have the German 4 pin apparently ..



10Q japanese style base..
16.75" x 1.75" x 1"
Theoretically you could get a new base and swap it out..
2g11 bases are easy to find..
Lot of work for that fixture though..

hey found one..
6500k/10000k

123881033962


> #2024 Current-USA SUNPAQ 40w daylight Fluorescent Lamp Aquarium Light Bulb


rules don't allow me to tell you where..

$22.70


----------



## Streetwise

RLee said:


> Take a pic of the bulb specifically the end or ends that plug into the wires. I can't find any info on that unit.
> If memory serves I think you may have an old SunPaq CF "compact florescent". You can still find those bulbs around. They came in 2 pin configs, Square and InLine. They made a 10,000k - 6,700k bulb that would work fine for freshwater.
> I found it the bulb #2025 is a 10,000k -Actinic 40 watt you would want the #2024 which it the 10,000k-6,700k 40 watt. There is a guy on fleabay that has 4
> "#2024 Current-USA SUNPAQ 40w daylight Fluorescent Lamp Aquarium Light Bulb"





jeffkrol said:


> compact flourescent..40w/ actinic/10000k dual
> 
> Current USA 40W SmartPaq Compact Fluorescent Lamp, 2025, Aquarium Fluorescent Light
> 
> 
> Can't see the pin out very well.. nor any dimensions..
> 
> Need more info.
> 
> 
> Never mind found the specs..
> 
> BUT there are 3 bulbs orig. available.
> https://www.current-usa.com/files/SunPaq_Spec_Sheet.pdf
> 
> 
> 2024 is the closest freshwater lamp.. suspect it is near impossible to find.
> 
> 
> As to off brand 10G bases in that tube config.. Also seems hard to find..
> https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-pin-plug-in-compact-fluorescents/
> 
> 
> most still available have the German 4 pin apparently ..
> 
> 
> 
> 10Q japanese style base..
> 16.75" x 1.75" x 1"
> Theoretically you could get a new base and swap it out..
> 2g11 bases are easy to find..
> Lot of work for that fixture though..


Thank you for your research and google-fu. You got further than I did.

I think I will give it away and find a modern light.

I really appreciate it. Free to any reefers here.

Cheers


----------



## RLee

Ya probably the best way to go.


----------



## houstonreef

Greggz said:


> My Denon Rosewood direct drive turntable was one of the last to go. And don't get me started on the stylus.
> 
> Taking a vinly record out and dropping the needle for the first time........a magical experience.
> 
> Played through a McIntosh vacuum tube amp and some Klipsch horns....now we are talking!!:icon_mad:


Here is my baby Greggs. i love vinyl MUCH MUCH more than digital format.


----------



## Deanna

Streetwise said:


> I think I will give it away and find a modern light.


And now the big question: is that a modern T5HO setup or a modern LED ...and what made you decide on the choice (if you've made it)?


----------



## Streetwise

I have five Fluval Nano 3.0 lights that I love, but this is a rimmed 16G bowfront that can’t fit the Nano, and is a little narrow for the 24 inch unit. I may still get it, but I might try to remove the ends. I’m also tempted by the Finnex Planted Plus and the Current USA LED.

However, I’m willing to try a T5. I’m open to suggestions.

Cheers


----------



## Deanna

Streetwise said:


> I have five Fluval Nano 3.0 lights that I love, but this is a rimmed 16G bowfront that can’t fit the Nano, and is a little narrow for the 24 inch unit. I may still get it, but I might try to remove the ends. I’m also tempted by the Finnex Planted Plus and the Current USA LED.
> 
> However, I’m willing to try a T5. I’m open to suggestions.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Cheers


I guide toward LED but, as you can see throughout this thread, there are many that prefer T5 (even metal halide) ...and with good reasons. 

If you go with LED, the lesson I have learned is to buy more intensity than you need and dim it. This should allow for compensation as the diodes gradually lose potency (T5's also fade over time) as well as extending the life, since heat is reduced from maximum rating. I am a proponent of considering a serious lighting purchase to also include a PAR meter (Seneye is common). Take a reading when you first install the new light, dim as necessary to achieve desired PAR, then monitor PAR every 6 months, or so, to ensure consistency of PAR.


----------



## Streetwise

Deanna said:


> I guide toward LED but, as you can see throughout this thread, there are many that prefer T5 (even metal halide) ...and with good reasons.
> 
> If you go with LED, the lesson I have learned is to buy more intensity than you need and dim it. This should allow for compensation as the bulbs gradually lose potency (T5's also fade over time) as well as extending the life, since heat is reduced from maximum rating. I am a proponent of considering a serious lighting purchase to also include a PAR meter (Seneye is common). Take a reading when you first install the new light, dim as necessary to achieve desired PAR, then monitor PAR every 6 months, or so, to ensure consistency of PAR.


I feel very confident with my Fluval lights, but with multiple tanks, I can try something different here. I have an AC timer, but I am spoiled by the Fluval app. I think Fluval is missing a market segment for rimmed tanks 18"-24" wide.

I don't think any of my Fluval 3.0 units are above 50% for any time segment. I run four photo periods, three for light, and one for late night, and two siestas. Getting the levels right has cut any algae worries.

Cheers


----------



## burr740

If you go with LED make sure to get one with strong red and blues in the mix. Not just a couple sprinkled in, many will have that. To get the popping colors (and the best plant growth) that you see with some T5 tanks, you need STRONG reds and blues in the mix.

And this is where LEDs havent quite caught up to the needs of the hobby yet, imo. Having both power and good color in one. Its easy to find one or the other, but not both. SBreefs come close

it also depends on what kind of tank you have. A nature scape with mostly greens and hardscape will look fine with just about any hobby light. But if you have a tank full of colorful stems you want to look their best, then you need to pay attention to what spectrum you're getting


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> If you go with LED make sure to get one with strong red and blues in the mix. Not just a couple sprinkled in, many will have that. To get the popping colors (and the best plant growth) that you see with some T5 tanks, you need STRONG reds and blues in the mix.
> 
> And this is where LEDs havent quite caught up to the needs of the hobby yet, imo. Having both power and good color in one. Its easy to find one or the other, but not both. SBreefs come close
> 
> it also depends on what kind of tank you have. A nature scape with mostly greens and hardscape will look fine with just about any hobby light. But if you have a tank full of colorful stems you want to look their best, then you need to pay attention to what spectrum you're getting


I think you have to start looking into hydrponic leds for those, the old blurple type. I think newer ones are moving to quantum? boards that use a mix of warm and cool whites with some 660nm sprinkled in right now (e.g. Mars-Hydro). There's some reef centric bar type ones with a high amount of Antic blues.


----------



## Streetwise

This is the tank I need to pick lights for. This is with the current (old) reef lights.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...5-16-gallon-bow-front-reset.html#post11270713

No fish or shrimp yet; I'm taking my time here.

Thanks


----------



## jeffkrol

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I think you have to start looking into hydrponic leds for those, the old blurple type. I think newer ones are moving to quantum? boards that use a mix of warm and cool whites with some 660nm sprinkled in right now (e.g. Mars-Hydro). There's some reef centric bar type ones with a high amount of Antic blues.


Orphek will customize their "reef bars". 



Royal blue (some consider it "actinic") is really never a problem w/ LED's..
Haven't quite moved the term "actinic" into my collection of pet peeves yet.. but it's close..


A blue "spread" (violet-cyan) is a bit harder..


----------



## Streetwise

jeffkrol said:


> compact flourescent..40w/ actinic/10000k dual
> 
> Current USA 40W SmartPaq Compact Fluorescent Lamp, 2025, Aquarium Fluorescent Light
> 
> 
> Can't see the pin out very well.. nor any dimensions..
> 
> Need more info.
> 
> 
> Never mind found the specs..
> 
> BUT there are 3 bulbs orig. available.
> https://www.current-usa.com/files/SunPaq_Spec_Sheet.pdf
> 
> 
> 2024 is the closest freshwater lamp.. suspect it is near impossible to find.
> 
> 
> As to off brand 10G bases in that tube config.. Also seems hard to find..
> https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4-pin-plug-in-compact-fluorescents/
> 
> 
> most still available have the German 4 pin apparently ..
> 
> 
> 
> 10Q japanese style base..
> 16.75" x 1.75" x 1"
> Theoretically you could get a new base and swap it out..
> 2g11 bases are easy to find..
> Lot of work for that fixture though..
> 
> hey found one..
> 6500k/10000k
> 
> 123881033962
> 
> 
> rules don't allow me to tell you where..
> 
> $22.70


I just re-read this. I am in Vermont, USA. I might just have to try this, while I still think about modern options.

Thanks!


----------



## aqua_rob

burr740 said:


> If you go with LED make sure to get one with strong red and blues in the mix. Not just a couple sprinkled in, many will have that. To get the popping colors (and the best plant growth) that you see with some T5 tanks, you need STRONG reds and blues in the mix.
> 
> And this is where LEDs havent quite caught up to the needs of the hobby yet, imo. Having both power and good color in one. Its easy to find one or the other, but not both. SBreefs come close
> 
> it also depends on what kind of tank you have. A nature scape with mostly greens and hardscape will look fine with just about any hobby light. But if you have a tank full of colorful stems you want to look their best, then you need to pay attention to what spectrum you're getting


When I first started looking into lighting a couple years ago the appeal of the latest and greatest tech really sucked me in to wanting LEDs. I run a 16" SBreef extreme Wifi on my 54 corner bowfront. It's worked well however it has to be quite high to get enough spread to light the whole tank and with that the plants only really color up near the surface
My biggest disappointment with the light however is the app to control it, it's JUNK IMO. Channels are labelled 1-4 with no indication of what # = what channel. The whole thing is far from user friendly

Screenshot_20191030-071406 by Rob M, on Flickr

Screenshot_20191030-071432 by Rob M, on Flickr

I'm planning to upgrade to a 4' tank so it's time to either cough up big $ for more LEDs to cover the whole tank or make the switch to T5s and I'm going with T5s. I can light the whole tank with 1 fixture easily and spend half the money doing it and hopefully will have as good if not better results in doing so.

My wife has a small shrimp tank that we run a AI Prime on. The app for that is awesome, easy to use and well designed. However as Burr mentioned the strong reds and blues just aren't there


----------



## SpringHalo

burr740 said:


> If you go with LED make sure to get one with strong red and blues in the mix. Not just a couple sprinkled in, many will have that. To get the popping colors (and the best plant growth) that you see with some T5 tanks, you need STRONG reds and blues in the mix.
> 
> And this is where LEDs havent quite caught up to the needs of the hobby yet, imo. Having both power and good color in one. Its easy to find one or the other, but not both. SBreefs come close
> 
> it also depends on what kind of tank you have. A nature scape with mostly greens and hardscape will look fine with just about any hobby light. But if you have a tank full of colorful stems you want to look their best, then you need to pay attention to what spectrum you're getting



This really nails the LED issue on the head. The only way to get both bright and saturated with LEDs is to use a large number of red/deep-red (630nm/660nm) and blue/royal-blue (470nm/445nm). Perceived brightness (lumen value) is a large selling point for LEDs, and that measurement is biased towards green and white LEDs since that what we perceive as brightest. You can get similar PAR from blue and red LEDs, but visually they're only 1/6 as bright, leading to less satisfied customers or more expensive fixtures, for example twinstar and other RGB-centric lights. Horticulture-focused T5HOs put no effort into visual brightness and pump the red and blue giving very saturated colors. Most of the popular 4 or 6-bulb combinations only have a single white for this reason. Though the light may look pink when reflecting off white surfaces, in a tank with red and green plants you won't notice the tint, only a saturation boost. Check any picture with a twinstar light with natural light in the background and you'll see a pink hue. The popular T5HO tanks use the same concept but to an extreme.


In short, it's easier to get lots of red-blue with T5 bulbs at a moderate price point, and having no adjustment allows you to focus on other important aspects of the tank such as cleanliness and water parameters. There isn't a large enough market for dutch-focused LED fixtures, so we're left with more safe and universal color mixes that don't quite give as much pop.


----------



## Edward

SpringHalo said:


> Perceived brightness (lumen value) is a large selling point for LEDs, and that measurement is biased towards green and white LEDs since that what we perceive as brightest. You can get similar PAR from blue and red LEDs, but visually they're only 1/6 as bright, leading to less satisfied customers or more expensive fixtures, for example twinstar and other RGB-centric lights.


 Wasn’t using white LEDs a wrong idea? It does less for plants than for people, people see it visually brighter but plants don’t because the spectrum is wrong. Fixtures containing red green and blue LEDs only are visually less bright, which is a good thing for strong light systems, while pumping more light in better spectrum for plants. When the three RGB channels are finely adjusted they produce visually pure white. 

It is mentioned also in actual PAR tests on ADA RGB fixture. “ The color balance (RGB) is balanced with the same intensity for each channel … look's less bright than other ADA led's, but ... But when you measure the light is all there! Very powerful ! “


----------



## SpringHalo

Edward said:


> Wasn’t using white LEDs a wrong idea? It does less for plants than for people, people see it visually brighter but plants don’t because the spectrum is wrong. Fixtures containing red green and blue LEDs only are visually less bright, which is a good thing for strong light systems, while pumping more light in better spectrum for plants. When the three RGB channels are finely adjusted they produce visually pure white.
> 
> It is mentioned also in actual PAR tests on ADA RGB fixture. “ The color balance (RGB) is balanced with the same intensity for each channel … look's less bright than other ADA led's, but ... But when you measure the light is all there! Very powerful ! “



There are a lot of variables that explain how fixtures have evolved over the years, but it's best to go back to the purpose of the light fixture: to grow plants, and to look good. Plants only care about PAR while we generally care about looks. White LEDs manage to cover both bases well, so they're the natural choice to start. As the industry has evolved, more lights are using extra colored LEDs because they improve looks, not necessarily because it's better for the plants. At the end of the day, you're the one buying the light, not the plant.


----------



## jeffkrol

SpringHalo said:


> There are a lot of variables that explain how fixtures have evolved over the years, but it's best to go back to the purpose of the light fixture: to grow plants, and to look good. Plants only care about PAR while we generally care about looks. White LEDs manage to cover both bases well, so they're the natural choice to start. As the industry has evolved, more lights are using extra colored LEDs because they improve looks, not necessarily because it's better for the plants. At the end of the day, you're the one buying the light, not the plant.



Not to mention the 6500K thing..

for fun , showing "white" isn't really a mistake..


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol,
SpringHalo and I talked about LEDs not fluorescent tubes. Can you find such large industrial installation with white LEDs?


----------



## SpringHalo

jeffkrol said:


> Not to mention the 6500K thing..
> 
> for fun , showing "white" isn't really a mistake..





Edward said:


> jeffkrol,
> SpringHalo and I talked about LEDs not fluorescent tubes. Can you find such large industrial installation with white LEDs?


To make sure I didn't write a thesis with my replies I tried to keep them general. Red and blue LEDs provide more PAR per watt due to not having to go through phosphor conversion, and recent research shows that the green wavelengths are also beneficial for plant growth. This still doesn't change the fact that horticulture LED fixtures are rarely used in fish tanks. There aren't as many reputable manufacturers offering quality horticulture lights as compared to the fish tank-centric options, and most LED buyers want an all-in-one fixture. T5 has the benefit of being customizable without being unwieldy, which is why the horticulture bulb mixes are so popular.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> jeffkrol,
> SpringHalo and I talked about LEDs not fluorescent tubes. Can you find such large industrial installation with white LEDs?


Those are LED's.. 

https://www.lumileds.com/horticulture/applications-with-leds/


----------



## jeffkrol

SpringHalo said:


> To make sure I didn't write a thesis with my replies I tried to keep them general. Red and blue LEDs provide more PAR per watt due to not having to go through phosphor conversion, and recent research shows that the green wavelengths are also beneficial for plant growth. This still doesn't change the fact that horticulture LED fixtures are rarely used in fish tanks. There aren't as many reputable manufacturers offering quality horticulture lights as compared to the fish tank-centric options, and most LED buyers want an all-in-one fixture. T5 has the benefit of being customizable without being unwieldy, which is why the horticulture bulb mixes are so popular.



Personally, It's more of a look thing..
Tubes are much softer light 

LED err harsher.


Sure some use straight 6500k "starcoats" as a preferred look..
Maybe throw in a warm white for some red punch.. 



I've "fought" the simplistic designs in aquarium freshwater lights for years but found even in DIY many prefer "natural" than "hort" look..
It's fairly easy to design a "tube like" array in any color tone you want..
And it's not really expensive 

Even designing in that ability of a custom LED few choose to use it.
Maybe it boils down to the harshness or the tighter (high "PUR" ) spectrums..don't know.



Why things break this way would be a study of human nature beyond my pay grade..


want a hort like LED.. Throw a Beamswork "Roseate" light over your tank..
https://theshopgiant.com/products/b...MI89rn-PjH5QIVMCCtBh18pwqCEAQYBSABEgJMD_D_BwE


Basically a RGB w/ the green run low..

What I'm trying to say is it's more a matter of style than anything else.









Why would you want that tank "purple-y...?
It would be a choice.. no more no less.


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> Those are LED's..
> 
> https://www.lumileds.com/horticulture/applications-with-leds/


 I don’t know, it is pretty outdated technology, the website is abandoned and two years old. Truth is, ADA also stopped using white LEDs in their fixtures.


----------



## Greggz

Edward said:


> I don’t know, it is pretty outdated technology, the website is abandoned and two years old. Truth is, ADA also stopped using


Edward that is a good video. 

The comparison of the different colors of light and the effect on how our eyes perceive the tank is very well presented. It's exactly what some of us with T5HO have been talking about for a while.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> I don’t know, it is pretty outdated technology, the website is abandoned and two years old. Truth is, ADA also stopped using white LEDs in their fixtures.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghaiqx4AzcI



Yea but that isn't exactly "ideal" depending on goals.
As to ADA they also spike green in some lights.. Certainly more than natural..


Like I said it's a choice.


PERSONALLY, though punchy RGB are not a preferred "look to me"..
Got thing thing about holes in the spectrum..
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...ed-l-max-633-nm-blue-l-max-448-nm-green-l.png

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael_Snowden3/publication/308910234/figure/fig2/AS:[email protected]/Spectral-distributions-of-all-eight-LED-treatments-Treatments-include-three-types-of.png


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> Got thing thing about holes in the spectrum..


 Do you feel the same way when you watch TVs? Almost all are only RGB spectrum emitters and they can mix any colour imaginable.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> Do you feel the same way when you watch TVs? Almost all are only RGB spectrum emitters and they can mix any colour imaginable.



our current main TV...
https://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73737-73-Inch-1080p-Theater/dp/B001XUR5FO


> 6-Color Processor for a wider range of colors, brighter colors and whiter whites





sooo ..yes..


----------



## RLee

jeffkrol said:


> our current main TV...
> https://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73737-73-Inch-1080p-Theater/dp/B001XUR5FO
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sooo ..yes..


Still rockin the DLP. Jeff its time for an upgrade!


----------



## jeffkrol

RLee said:


> Still rockin the DLP. Jeff its time for an upgrade!



As soon as the OLED lifespan issue is fixed..and cheaper 
Don't get me started on black levels.. 











Sadly, unlike aquarium lights, I can't build my own..


----------



## Edward

...


----------



## Edward

@Xiaozhuang perfectly sums up the difference between RGBW and RGB fixtures in this post:


Xiaozhuang said:


> However, I said what I said as it is also based on what I observe from general aquarists views/actions. They may say they want accurate color rendition, but other than biotope enthusiasts and/or botanists, what many aquarists prefer is lighting that give higher and stronger color contrast, overwhelmingly so, (and not necessarily natural or accurate tones in that sense). And I see this across cultures (both east and west) - many folks constantly changing lighting fixtures till they get that look. Human's color perception (and indeed of reality itself) is extremely circumstantial as well as easily manipulated. For example, the first time you see an ADA RGB fixture in real life - you would instantly feel that the green is super/over saturated, and that the reds are exaggerated as well. However, if you spend 5 minutes in the ADA gallery, with all tanks lit similarly, your eyes get used to it and you get the feeling that everything just has a good contrast. Trained photographers probably still retain their objectivity, but most folks will just sink into the "new reality". In our tanks similarly we create fantasies of natural surroundings, try to create an insane amount of depth in a laughably small space etc. To that extent, I feel that for most aquarists, anything that complements/improves the illusion, which humans delight in anyway, should be done.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> @*Xiaozhuang* perfectly sums up the difference between RGBW and RGB fixtures in this post:



Funny, that is really putting LED vs LED..
And the "shadows" due to light geometry will always create a err "deeper" look than any tubes..








> you would instantly feel that the green is super/over saturated, and that the reds are exaggerated as well.


Think that is worth pondering a moment, and yes there is a philosophical difference but it's the nuance that matters to some..










how many shades of colors are missing we/ JUST RGB?

NOTE: Prob. a bit of an exaggeration but point holds.
with the correct RGB diodes at the correct output it's possible to hit a CRI of 95-ish..
A little decent high K (6500k or greater) white won't hurt..


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol
I wish I had your experience with LEDs. 
What do you mean by _“And the "shadows" due to light geometry will always create a err "deeper" look than any tubes..”_ ?

Tubes make scapes look flatter than metal halides and LEDs. I use metal halides and like the dynamic look, shadows and shimmer effect. The temperature is 10 000 K and colour of plants look great, but the white portion is too strong, we almost have to use sunglasses. I see RGB LED fixtures producing also the great looking colours, though minus the disturbing white overload. 

Bellow, I created four pictures for a comparison, these are only illustrations and not real shots. 

10K Metal Halide:









RGBW:









T5HO Colour Tubes:









RGB:










_“how many shades of colors are missing we/ JUST RGB?”_
None when levels are set correctly. Tubes don’t have this option, we can swap few predetermined colours and that’s it. 

I think the CRI is the way tubes were classified and it was the only way for us to choose the right ones. It has little to do with aquariums when we think LEDs today.


----------



## jeffkrol

My above chart is from Chihiros WRGB..
There is a lack (when excluding the whites) of sufficient light in the 470-500nm spectrum .. If you had a pure pigment that reflected say just 480nm light it would appear at best weak.
Same w/ the 570-610nm range, or >650.
Now few of these may exist in nature but the point still is some unrepresented spectrum.
W/ things w/ a range of reflectance the seperation is less, so much appears monotone..

Now it may be a matter of photos but that's what I see w/ ADA and many RGB tanks.. monotone BRIGHT greens w/ little subtlety in shade.

Tubes can be the same BUT they have one advantage, they use RGB phosphors which by their nature SMEAR more across the spectrum than narrow spectrum emitters..w/ the exception of the sharp Mercury emission peaks esp in the green. So it's not perfect either..










Can't EXACTLY say it definitely but a GE starcoat should have a slight advantage in color over a RGB LED yet apper less so due to the "crispness" of the narrow spectrum LED peaks..
Yes, you heard it here.. T5's edge LEd's.. 
It's my old windmill.. lack of cyan range in the LED..
fortunately many LED greens are err sloppy..


Will be the last time for that though.. LOL

Once you start adding "colored tubes" you start to really overdrive color in my OPINION, where the RGB LED wins out..

TO BE honest, a lot of this is real nit picky..

Note2: GE starcoats are listed as "only" 85CRI..
https://products.currentbyge.com/si...ts/document_file/28345_Starcoat_T5_Ecolux.pdf


----------



## burr740

CRI isnt really the best thing to go by if you want your colors to pop (esp red). 

https://blog.1000bulbs.com/home/is-color-quality-scale-better-than-cri

From personal experience I bought some 5000-6500K T5HO, non-aquarium brand with 90+ CRI...and they looked like crap.


----------



## RLee

Edward said:


> jeffkrol
> I wish I had your experience with LEDs.
> What do you mean by _“And the "shadows" due to light geometry will always create a err "deeper" look than any tubes..”_ ?
> 
> Tubes make scapes look flatter than metal halides and LEDs. I use metal halides and like the dynamic look, shadows and shimmer effect. The temperature is 10 000 K and colour of plants look great, but the white portion is too strong, we almost have to use sunglasses. I see RGB LED fixtures producing also the great looking colours, though minus the disturbing white overload.
> 
> Bellow, I created four pictures for a comparison, these are only illustrations and not real shots.
> 
> 10K Metal Halide:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGBW:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T5HO Colour Tubes:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RGB:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“how many shades of colors are missing we/ JUST RGB?”_
> None when levels are set correctly. Tubes don’t have this option, we can swap few predetermined colours and that’s it.
> 
> I think the CRI is the way tubes were classified and it was the only way for us to choose the right ones. It has little to do with aquariums when we think LEDs today.




I do not agree with anything you just said.


----------



## Edward

RLee said:


> I do not agree with anything you just said.


 Perfect, how do you see it?


burr740 said:


> CRI isnt really the best thing to go by if you want your colors to pop (esp red).
> 
> https://blog.1000bulbs.com/home/is-color-quality-scale-better-than-cri
> 
> From personal experience I bought some 5000-6500K T5HO, non-aquarium brand with 90+ CRI...and they looked like crap.


 For me too. Great CRI creates dull presentations.


----------



## jeffkrol

burr740 said:


> CRI isnt really the best thing to go by if you want your colors to pop (esp red).
> 
> https://blog.1000bulbs.com/home/is-color-quality-scale-better-than-cri
> 
> From personal experience I bought some 5000-6500K T5HO, non-aquarium brand with 90+ CRI...and they looked like crap.



That's either an old article or one w/ old information..



"Modern" CRI measurements have 15 color swatches including saturated Red, green, blue, yellow "foliage" green flesh tone and white..Both 93.3..


also doesn't distinguish between high K CRI and low K CRI which uses a different standard to be measured against. 

One a tungsten lamp at about 2700K-ish the other daylight..


And equal CRI's can have very different look.


As a hypothetical EXTREME a light w/ 100 on all patches but zero on red will have the same CRI score (average) as one w/ 100 on all patches but zero blue..
since various patches sort of "work together" the above is probably not technically possible but gives one an idea..


----------



## burr740

Its from 2016


----------



## jeffkrol

burr740 said:


> Its from 2016


*Gee so I did make a INCORRECT assumption ..*
Need to correct it.
Article was correct, just not what I use in practice.. 
Been using Spectra and making a very wrong assumption (including past poor reading comprehension apparently) that the added 7 swatches were officially included in the CRI calculation. 

They are not..


MY bad...




> Ra is the average value of R1-R8, other values from R9 to R15 are missing in Ra calculation, including R9 Saturated Red, R13 Skin Color (Light), and R15 Skin Color (Medium), which are all difficult colors to faithfully reproduce. R9 is a vital index in high CRI lighting as many applications require red lights, such as film and video lighting, medical lighting, art lighting, etc. However, in general CRI (Ra) calculation, R9 is not included.



And the extended set includes 2 flesh tones not err "white"..well whitish ..LOL


The fact that lights of very different looks can have the same CRI rating still holds though..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index#/media/File:CIE_CRI_TCS_SPDs.svg

Orig 8 swatches and their color spectrum.









A probably poor high CRI flourescent light..











> This spectral power distribution looks generally similar to the one above except it shows more power at the blue end of the spectrum and less at the red end. Also, there are no low points in the curve that come close to zero power. This lamp has a 5000K color temperature and a CRI of 98. It produces light that is perceived as bluish white (similar to daylight) and it does an excellent job of rendering colors across the spectrum.


https://www.topbulb.com/color-rendering-index


----------



## becon776

for those of you who are saying T5 are going the way of the cassete tape. have to say WRONG!!!!! they are not going anywhere. in fact there will be a resurgence. just pop in to reef2reef or reefcentral. Most people who jimped on the LED wagon years ago. and are now running gen4 ecotech radions or kessil ap700's are not satisfied and are now building Hybrid systems to "reincorporate" t5 into the mix. they are just not happy with the growth/color/visual appeal of the LED alone. and as time has shown what is happening in the reefer community usually flows into this community. there are a TON of these retrofit hybrid systems out now.


----------



## jeffkrol

becon776 said:


> for those of you who are saying T5 are going the way of the cassete tape. have to say WRONG!!!!! they are not going anywhere. in fact there will be a resurgence. just pop in to reef2reef or reefcentral. Most people who jimped on the LED wagon years ago. and are now running gen4 ecotech radions or kessil ap700's are not satisfied and are now building Hybrid systems to "reincorporate" t5 into the mix. they are just not happy with the growth/color/visual appeal of the LED alone. and as time has shown what is happening in the reefer community usually flows into this community. there are a TON of these retrofit hybrid systems out now.



Partially correct... Thing is most of the "dissatisfaction" is from shading.
They also like t5/MH Hybrids..
Metal Halides are also point light sources..
In reefing ADDING more photons is a general trend..



don't think T5's are err disappearing and will readily exist until 1)LED "efficiency" is high enough and 2)cost is in line w/ that efficiency..
OR everyone bans Mercury..


Photons are photons.. They all work..

Reefers will tell you that MH's are "surging" as well..
Their only advantage is simplicity..Can't generally go shifting spectrums all over the place..

Oh and that's another thing, they buy LED's and run them at like 60% of their potential due to a "look" preference
blaming Led's for the lack of power/$.. Kind of funny..
Particularly an acute problem W/ Radion users..


----------



## Deanna

becon776 said:


> for those of you who are saying T5 are going the way of the cassete tape. have to say WRONG!!!!!


I was faced with the decision to go back to T5’s (better overall coverage) or re-invest in LED’s. My decision was mainly a cost issue. I looked at the cost of buying a new high-quality T5 fixture (plus the T5 bulbs) vs. a high-quality LED. I found that the LED was cheaper. 

However, it was not the short-term cost benefit to LED’s that prevented me from buying the T5 fixture. My concern was the longer-term trend (which may be measured in only a few years of length). The EU is beginning to ban CFL’s due to both the energy issues and the mercury issue. How far behind will CA be? Additionally, commercial and residential use of CFL’s is shrinking rapidly in the face of LED’s. This means that CFL’s of all types will become very much a specialty product, with all of the attendant ‘specialty’ costs to make them, if they even remain available. So, my fear is a rapid and dramatic increase in the cost of T5 bulbs, or any fluorescent bulbs, after I would have invested in a high-quality fluorescent fixture.


----------



## varanidguy

Deanna said:


> I was faced with the decision to go back to T5’s (better overall coverage) or re-invest in LED’s. My decision was mainly a cost issue. I looked at the cost of buying a new high-quality T5 fixture (plus the T5 bulbs) vs. a high-quality LED. I found that the LED was cheaper.
> 
> However, it was not the short-term cost benefit to LED’s that prevented me from buying the T5 fixture. My concern was the longer-term trend (which may be measured in only a few years of length). The EU is beginning to ban CFL’s due to both the energy issues and the mercury issue. How far behind will CA be? Additionally, commercial and residential use of CFL’s is shrinking rapidly in the face of LED’s. This means that CFL’s of all types will become very much a specialty product, with all of the attendant ‘specialty’ costs to make them, if they even remain available. So, my fear is a rapid and dramatic increase in the cost of T5 bulbs, or any fluorescent bulbs, after I would have invested in a high-quality fluorescent fixture.


Frankly I'm surprised they're not already outright banned here in CA.


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> Reefers will tell you that MH's are "surging" as well..
> Their only advantage is simplicity..Can't generally go shifting spectrums all over the place..


 That’s right. 
When we look at the LED fixtures today, the cheaper the unit is, more superfluous options it has just to hide the obvious. The MHs and T5s don’t hide anything, they are set to do the job without any monkeying around. 


varanidguy said:


> Frankly I'm surprised they're not already outright banned here in CA.


 Why would you want to ban successful technology?


----------



## Deanna

Edward said:


> Why would you want to ban successful technology?


It is now deficient in energy efficiency (vs. LED's) and has the mercury hazard. I disagree with the concept of banning it for these reasons, but the fact is that it is being banned. Building owners in NYC will find CFL's an easy thing to eliminate in order to help hit their ridiculous gov't targets.


----------



## Edward

The actual LEDs efficiency values are not as significant at the moment as it appears. What makes the LEDs appear more efficient is the directional beam and narrow lenses. Truly, LEDs are not made of harmless chemicals. And as far as the “horrifying” mercury hazard, there are toxic compounds in food, in drinking water and in the air, all administered by the system, so, so much for regulations.


----------



## varanidguy

Edward said:


> That’s right.
> 
> When we look at the LED fixtures today, the cheaper the unit is, more superfluous options it has just to hide the obvious. The MHs and T5s don’t hide anything, they are set to do the job without any monkeying around.
> 
> Why would you want to ban successful technology?



Oh I don’t want it banned lol. I’m just saying that CA is so “progressive” that I’m surprised it isn’t already.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Deanna

Edward said:


> The actual LEDs efficiency values are not as significant at the moment as it appears. What makes the LEDs appear more efficient is the directional beam and narrow lenses. Truly, LEDs are not made of harmless chemicals. And as far as the “horrifying” mercury hazard, there are toxic compounds in food, in drinking water and in the air, all administered by the system, so, so much for regulations.


There is no getting around it: CFLs have become far less efficient than LEDs over the last few years and that spread is widening rapidly. Additionally, CFL’s age faster (much faster) than LED’s, requiring more energy to run as they age, particularly if they are switched on and off frequently. These negatives pertain to commercial and residential uses where actual light employed (as opposed to loss by omni-directional CFL’s) by LED’s means less total energy required. It’s almost a no-brainer for new installations and for gov’ts to force it out of old installations.

Another negative for fluorescents is that they produce a lot of UV. It may not matter in an aquarium, but it does degrade things in the home and office. If you look at the old lenses in your school and building, that yellowing is not from smoke - it’s UV degradation. This isn’t lost on designers.

In a fish tank, these things tend to be neutral, to a point, until LED technology finally exceeds other light sources in overall benefit. However, CFL’s aren’t getting better and I doubt anyone is investing R&D dollars in it anymore, while LED advances accelerate. Combine this with a shrinking overall market for CFL’s and you have a recipe for specialty prices for antiquated technology. How long will ballast manufacturers wait to raise prices on a thousand ballasts they might make annually vs. the millions they now make annually? As long as a large enough aquarium market exists, our specialty market space should be supported …until the weight of customization forces an unavoidable economic choice.

It just doesn’t look like a good long-term investment from my standpoint, which is the only point I'm making. I could get into a whole other discussion about the wisdom of our politicians, but that would be banned here on TPT.


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> And as far as the “horrifying” mercury hazard, there are toxic compounds in food, in drinking water and in the air, all administered by the system, so, so much for regulations.


Not sue that is something one should be proud of...
The fact that most hit the "low hanging fruit" is a moral issue that should not be really encouraged.. 
Last I'll say on that except we sure ignore a lot of things killing us.


As to efficiency .. most "common" diodes ar now at 100 plus efficiency. Many over 150 plus lumens per watt..
Best tubes are at 100L/w and CFL's mostly around 60L/watt.
150L/ watt LED's are relatively common nowadays, mostly in COB's.

Considering the less loss through directional-ity or the many advantages of a purely solid state light (poor electronics not considered atm) LED's easily top the current light technologies .. EXCEPT in cost.











Tubes barely doubled in efficiency in 50 years..


OLD but gives you another picture..










No guarantee that another tech won't muscle in but change in humans is REALLY slow for the most part.
Some exceptions, not many.
http://www.modulus.com/lightblog/is-plasma-the-next-led

CRT's and VHS were "succesful tech" at one time also.
Many reasons, singly or combined that kill a tech. Try to get rid of old TV's w/out paying someone because of the pounds of lead inside..


BTW it's not "appears" it is..
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1631070517300932



> Abstract
> 
> A monumental shift from conventional lighting technologies (incandescent, fluorescent, high intensity discharge) to LED lighting is currently transpiring. The primary driver for this shift has been energy efficiency and associated cost savings. LED lighting is now more efficacious than any of the conventional lighting technologies with room to still improve. Near term, phosphor-converted LED packages have the potential for efficacy improvement between 160 lm/W (now) to 255 lm/W. Longer term, color-mixed LED packages have the potential for efficacy levels conceivably as high as 330 lm/W, though reaching these performance levels requires breakthroughs in green and amber LED efficiency.


----------



## RLee

Deanna said:


> There is no getting around it: CFLs have become far less efficient than LEDs over the last few years and that spread is widening rapidly. Additionally, CFL’s age faster (much faster) than LED’s, requiring more energy to run as they age, particularly if they are switched on and off frequently. These negatives pertain to commercial and residential uses where actual light employed (as opposed to loss by omni-directional CFL’s) by LED’s means less total energy required. It’s almost a no-brainer for new installations and for gov’ts to force it out of old installations.
> 
> Another negative for fluorescents is that they produce a lot of UV. It may not matter in an aquarium, but it does degrade things in the home and office. If you look at the old lenses in your school and building, that yellowing is not from smoke - it’s UV degradation. This isn’t lost on designers.
> 
> In a fish tank, these things tend to be neutral, to a point, until LED technology finally exceeds other light sources in overall benefit. However, CFL’s aren’t getting better and I doubt anyone is investing R&D dollars in it anymore, while LED advances accelerate. Combine this with a shrinking overall market for CFL’s and you have a recipe for specialty prices for antiquated technology. How long will ballast manufacturers wait to raise prices on a thousand ballasts they might make annually vs. the millions they now make annually? As long as a large enough aquarium market exists, our specialty market space should be supported …until the weight of customization forces an unavoidable economic choice.
> 
> It just doesn’t look like a good long-term investment from my standpoint, which is the only point I'm making. I could get into a whole other discussion about the wisdom of our politicians, but that would be banned here on TPT.


You do know there is a big difference between linear T5 HO bulbs and CFL bulbs. CFL bulbs for our use are on their way out, getting hard to find for sure and not a tech. I would ever recommend at this point. I do agree that the T5 HO linear bulb is the pinnacle of florescent tech. There probably will not get any more efficient from here. However to think the technology is going away or going to become more expensive I would debate. I just replaced a old T12 magnetic ballast with a newer electronic ballast I picked up from the hardware store for $14. They even had the old magnetic ballast for $9. They also had T5 HO ballast.


----------



## Deanna

RLee said:


> You do know there is a big difference between linear T5 HO bulbs and CFL bulbs. CFL bulbs for our use are on their way out, getting hard to find for sure and not a tech. I would ever recommend at this point. I do agree that the T5 HO linear bulb is the pinnacle of florescent tech. There probably will not get any more efficient from here. However to think the technology is going away or going to become more expensive I would debate. I just replaced a old T12 magnetic ballast with a newer electronic ballast I picked up from the hardware store for $14. They even had the old magnetic ballast for $9. They also had T5 HO ballast.


Thanks. Yes: I am aware of the difference, but it is the basic fluorescent technology that is being affected by the surge in LED's that I was referencing. No doubt that there will be inventory available for all of this, as it is for most old technology. How long will depend upon the rate of draw-down by fluorescent users. Often, there is a surge in ordering by those willing to stock it in hopes of seeing prices rise as inventories dry up. When manufacturing ends, that is when prices will rise most rapidly.

Whether or not T5HO will go away will probably be a function more of LED advances. If, for example, LED's improve to the point where users will not be able to see a difference between T5HO and LED's, but LED's are 1/4 the price, what will happen to T5HO purchases?


----------



## RLee

Deanna said:


> Thanks. Yes: I am aware of the difference, but it is the basic fluorescent technology that is being affected by the surge in LED's that I was referencing. No doubt that there will be inventory available for all of this, as it is for most old technology. How long will depend upon the rate of draw-down by fluorescent users. Often, there is a surge in ordering by those willing to stock it in hopes of seeing prices rise as inventories dry up. When manufacturing ends, that is when prices will rise most rapidly.
> 
> Whether or not T5HO will go away will probably be a function more of LED advances. If, for example, LED's improve to the point where users will not be able to see a difference between T5HO and LED's, but LED's are 1/4 the price, what will happen to T5HO purchases?


 T12's have been around since the 1930's so T5 HO will be around for a while. I also agree that LED's will eventually surpass T5 HO. However people are going to spend alot of $ on LED before this happens.


----------



## Deanna

RLee said:


> T12's have been around since the 1930's so T5 HO will be around for a while. I also agree that LED's will eventually surpass T5 HO. However people are going to spend alot of $ on LED before this happens.


I'm one of those that has already spent $$ on LED's. Now on my fourth generation in 5-6 years ...and each one is better than the last. My guess is that LED's will exceed all of the benefits of T5HO within 3 years (due to better diffusers and higher wattage), or sooner, and at significantly lower prices. Anyone taking bets?

Production, in the US, of standard T12 bulbs and ballasts has almost ended. Perhaps foreign supplies can still be sourced and there is likely a world-wide inventory still being worked off. No new T12 fixtures are being installed in buildings in the US, Canada or EU. Can't say about other countries, though.


----------



## RLee

Deanna said:


> I'm one of those that has already spent $$ on LED's. Now on my fourth generation in 5-6 years ...and each one is better than the last. My guess is that LED's will exceed all of the benefits of T5HO within 3 years (due to better diffusers and higher wattage), or sooner, and at significantly lower prices. Anyone taking bets?
> 
> Production, in the US, of standard T12 bulbs and ballasts has almost ended. Perhaps foreign supplies can still be sourced and there is likely a world-wide inventory still being worked off. No new T12 fixtures are being installed in buildings in the US, Canada or EU. Can't say about other countries, though.


I will take that bet :grin2:
Yes new T12 fixtures are still being produced, ballasts and bulbs are still being manufactured and sold, but only for residential use. https://www.amazon.com/Lithonia-Lig...ywords=t12+fixture&qid=1574405790&sr=8-1&th=1 All commercial use is prohibited and has been since 2012.


----------



## makeitbetter

Interesting read. My experience is with reef keeping hobby and felt compelled to chime in here because I see the same comments and experiences that were trending fives years ago when LED's started to become mainstream. I'm JUST getting into the planted tank hobby, and trying to learn as I go, however I wanted to share my anecdotal experience and observations over the years with technology disruption.

Some of the things I heard in the reefing hobby, similar to what I am hearing here:

"LED's work but they do not provide the same color/growth as metal halide/T5" 
"The spectrum is too narrow, hot spots create spectrum imbalance" 
"Something about the "spectrum" of LED just isn't the "same""

The spectrum in freshwater is not nearly as complicated as providing the correct spectrum for symbiotic zooxanthellae algae. Especially considering corals harvested at many depths in the ocean resulting in the requirements for vastly different spectrums. Past 33 feet, it's my understanding that only blue is "seen." Now, that is not to say that plants don't have their own challenges with certain spectrums! 

My point is...the entire industry of high end coral providers, who are highly concerned about providing the absolute best color and health with their coral, resulting from the best provided spectrum (and of course good husbandry practices), overwhelming use LED as the preferred option, and for a variety of reasons. In short, it is amazing how quickly the hobby and conventional opinion has changed. The hobby itself has debunked the myth that LED's can't provide growth/amazing color and even those die hard MH guys (I was one of them) are making the switch. 

My guess is it is only a matter of time until we see that type of adoption in this hobby. I'm looking forward to my first planted aquarium and fingers crossed LED's will net the outcome I'm looking for! 

-Mark


----------



## Edward

makeitbetter said:


> The spectrum in freshwater is not nearly as complicated as providing the correct spectrum for symbiotic zooxanthellae algae. Especially considering corals harvested at many depths in the ocean resulting in the requirements for vastly different spectrums. Past 33 feet, it's my understanding that only blue is "seen." Now, that is not to say that plants don't have their own challenges with certain spectrums!


 Apart from light intensity and power efficiency we don’t care about light spectrum other than what we find attractive because plants will adapt.


----------



## markf

I have had t5's on a 40 breeder and have noticed over the last two years that it has become increasingly difficult to find bulbs. Now looking into a good LED


----------



## Deanna

markf said:


> I have had t5's on a 40 breeder and have noticed over the last two years that it has become increasingly difficult to find bulbs. Now looking into a good LED


You won't be disappointed with the Twinstar S series. you can see my PAR and PUR curves here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1298279-beamswork-owners-alert-2.html#post11275737

There are other brands that are similar - I'm told - but I don't have experience with them.


----------



## Sarlindescent

makeitbetter said:


> Interesting read. My experience is with reef keeping hobby and felt compelled to chime in here because I see the same comments and experiences that were trending fives years ago when LED's started to become mainstream. I'm JUST getting into the planted tank hobby, and trying to learn as I go, however I wanted to share my anecdotal experience and observations over the years with technology disruption.
> 
> Some of the things I heard in the reefing hobby, similar to what I am hearing here:
> 
> "LED's work but they do not provide the same color/growth as metal halide/T5"
> "The spectrum is too narrow, hot spots create spectrum imbalance"
> "Something about the "spectrum" of LED just isn't the "same""
> 
> The spectrum in freshwater is not nearly as complicated as providing the correct spectrum for symbiotic zooxanthellae algae. Especially considering corals harvested at many depths in the ocean resulting in the requirements for vastly different spectrums. Past 33 feet, it's my understanding that only blue is "seen." Now, that is not to say that plants don't have their own challenges with certain spectrums!
> 
> My point is...the entire industry of high end coral providers, who are highly concerned about providing the absolute best color and health with their coral, resulting from the best provided spectrum (and of course good husbandry practices), overwhelming use LED as the preferred option, and for a variety of reasons. In short, it is amazing how quickly the hobby and conventional opinion has changed. The hobby itself has debunked the myth that LED's can't provide growth/amazing color and even those die hard MH guys (I was one of them) are making the switch.
> 
> My guess is it is only a matter of time until we see that type of adoption in this hobby. I'm looking forward to my first planted aquarium and fingers crossed LED's will net the outcome I'm looking for!
> 
> -Mark


While I largely agree with your points, I also find it interesting to note the rise in led/t5 hybrids to account for the limitations of leds with shadowing and debatably slightly higher growth rates. Orphek has been making strides to make massive led panels to compensate for shadowing, but with large colonies of sps, led only lighting often results in the inner portions of colonies dying. It seems providing primary lighting with leds and supplemental t5 is producing the best results in color, efficiency, and full colonies. 

I have also noticed on densely planted led only tanks, the bottoms of stems appear to die out rather quickly. I have not used t5 in planted tanks yet, but it would be interesting to see a side by side of 2 dutch tanks, one led only and the other t5 only to see if the bottoms of stems maintained better leaf health and density on t5.


----------



## makeitbetter

Sarlindescent said:


> While I largely agree with your points, I also find it interesting to note the rise in led/t5 hybrids to account for the limitations of leds with shadowing and debatably slightly higher growth rates. Orphek has been making strides to make massive led panels to compensate for shadowing, but with large colonies of sps, led only lighting often results in the inner portions of colonies dying. It seems providing primary lighting with leds and supplemental t5 is producing the best results in color, efficiency, and full colonies.
> 
> I have also noticed on densely planted led only tanks, the bottoms of stems appear to die out rather quickly. I have not used t5 in planted tanks yet, but it would be interesting to see a side by side of 2 dutch tanks, one led only and the other t5 only to see if the bottoms of stems maintained better leaf health and density on t5.


There is no doubt that shading occurs with LED, but it is not the LED itself that is the cause, it is the design of the LED fixture. Orphek has a great solution to the problem, and I think you will see fewer "puck" designed LED's and more of the panel approach. 

The hybrid adoption rates, at least from what I've seen, was pushed by individuals that generally don't have the colonies where shading is an issue in the first place. It's not that easy to get that far for everyone. 

Looking at the LED placement for most of the Japanese fixtures in this hobby, it is clear that they understand the placement of the LED's is important for good coverage. What I do not see a lot of is the use of optics to help penetrate deeper water, which may be contributing to the issues you've seen? 

Also - last comment as I didn't mean to take this on a tangent! LED's biggest challenge to overcome is that they are not a 360* light source light like a T5 or metal halide and thus don't have the advantage of using reflectors to increase coverage. The benefit of this leads to a smaller fixture profile, but is probably the biggest consideration when building a fixture for the hobby. I really liked what Reefi was doing with their reflector design. 

I think the puck design is just cheaper to manufacturer and that's what the big players gave us...


----------



## ChrisX

I also suspect that most of the difference in "look" is the way digital cameras pick up colors. It may be that a T5 tank, without any shadowing, without any significant peaks/gaps in the spectrum, is easier for a digital camera to cope with.

For someone shooting a tank with an Android phone camera, T5 is probably much easier to get good result. Dennis wong showed that Led looks great, BUT I think he also knows his camera work.


----------



## Edward

gus6464 said:


> There is a reason all the RGB+W LED units on the market have an awesome pop on the plants that no other units have. It's not the high CRI white. You can take a crappy white led and with enough RGB light it will look great while getting tons of the right spectrum. Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.
> 
> I'm not even sure the ADA Solar RGB has any white leds to begin with. It might just be tons of super tightly packed RGB leds on a board.


 The ADA Solar 130W fixtures have 160 RGB LEDs only and together look white. I think you are right when you say *“Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.”*. 

I know the RGB LED COB chips may not emit perfect white though they are still more balanced then T5 colour tube fixtures. When we look at any T5 colour tube combination fixture, it never looks white. They are usually purple and that indicates insufficient green. The RGB LED COB chips produce slightly bluish gray white. 

Sometimes people mention RGB LEDs produce much less PAR than white LEDs. That is true but severely misunderstood. PAR is what people see, green and yellow. But plants see mostly blue and red, so the PAR measurement is not what plants see. White LED COB 50W has Luminous flux 5000 lumens, RGB LED COB 50W has 2000 lumens. The RGB LED produces only 40% “eye” light intensity, but still 100% “plant” light intensity. What this means is we can have very strong “plant” light with pleasing sensible “eye” light presentation. 

This is so interesting I am probably going to make one. Anybody here tried DIY RGB COB light fixture before?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Edward said:


> The ADA Solar 130W fixtures have 160 RGB LEDs only and together look white. I think you are right when you say *“Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.”*.
> 
> I know the RGB LED COB chips may not emit perfect white though they are still more balanced then T5 colour tube fixtures. When we look at any T5 colour tube combination fixture, it never looks white. They are usually purple and that indicates insufficient green. The RGB LED COB chips produce slightly bluish gray white.
> 
> Sometimes people mention RGB LEDs produce much less PAR than white LEDs. That is true but severely misunderstood. PAR is what people see, green and yellow. But plants see mostly blue and red, so the PAR measurement is not what plants see. White LED COB 50W has Luminous flux 5000 lumens, RGB LED COB 50W has 2000 lumens. The RGB LED produces only 40% “eye” light intensity, but still 100% “plant” light intensity. What this means is we can have very strong “plant” light with pleasing sensible “eye” light presentation.
> 
> This is so interesting I am probably going to make one. Anybody here tried DIY RGB COB light fixture before?


tagging @Maryland Guppy

pretty sure he still has cobs, maybe veros? iirc


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> The ADA Solar 130W fixtures have 160 RGB LEDs only and together look white. I think you are right when you say *“Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.”*.
> 
> I know the RGB LED COB chips may not emit perfect white though they are still more balanced then T5 colour tube fixtures. When we look at any T5 colour tube combination fixture, it never looks white. They are usually purple and that indicates insufficient green. The RGB LED COB chips produce slightly bluish gray white.
> 
> Sometimes people mention RGB LEDs produce much less PAR than white LEDs. That is true but severely misunderstood. PAR is what people see, green and yellow. But plants see mostly blue and red, so the PAR measurement is not what plants see. White LED COB 50W has Luminous flux 5000 lumens, RGB LED COB 50W has 2000 lumens. The RGB LED produces only 40% “eye” light intensity, but still 100% “plant” light intensity. What this means is we can have very strong “plant” light with pleasing sensible “eye” light presentation.
> 
> This is so interesting I am probably going to make one. Anybody here tried DIY RGB COB light fixture before?



You could start w/ OCW chips from LED groupbuy.. Blue/cyan/deep red.. 
Little wasted "PAR", mostly PUR..
https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/solderless-ocean-coral-white/
660nm is 2.2v @700mA
495nm is 3.5v @ 700mA
470nm is 3.5v @ 700mA

@ 5.50 each. pretty good deal..
6.4W [email protected]
would end up looking more like a t5 tank though.. 
Need to throttle back the rb for fw though..
Decent base for a RGBW fixture..


----------



## TheUnseenHand

As I read this discussion, I'd swear I was back about 5 or 6 years ago with SW reef tanks. Literally almost the exact same discussion. If you go back a bit farther it was metal halide vs. T5.

If I had to guess, I'd say the majority of the stunning tanks out there run on older technology in large part because the more experience tank keepers have been using that older tech for a long time. Those newer to the hobby are more likely to go with newer tech. I am of the opinion that the tanks you see running LED that don't look quite as nice as those running T5 are more a result of fewer _experienced_ people using LED than the diodes themselves. This has begun to be proven out in the reef hobby as more and more experienced keepers slowly, sometimes reluctantly, switch. Additionally, the reef hobby has, at least anecdotally, seemed to adopt LED more quickly than FW, so the technology is likely more advanced.

I guess my point is this: You should probably get used to LED. You can see the metal halide is becoming more and more difficult to find. T5 will eventually follow this path. Maybe not to the same extent as halide, but at some point it is going to become more and more specialized and harder to find (not to mention more expensive) as LED becomes cheaper and more available and the technology advances.


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> You could start w/ OCW chips from LED groupbuy.. Blue/cyan/deep red..
> Little wasted "PAR", mostly PUR..
> https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/solderless-ocean-coral-white/
> 660nm is 2.2v @700mA
> 495nm is 3.5v @ 700mA
> 470nm is 3.5v @ 700mA
> 
> @ 5.50 each. pretty good deal..
> 6.4W [email protected]
> would end up looking more like a t5 tank though..
> Need to throttle back the rb for fw though..
> Decent base for a RGBW fixture..


 What does this have to do with RGB COB fixture?


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> What does this have to do with RGB COB fixture?


The OCW is a cob sort of chip..
COB or multi-chip is more a matter of semantics.. 
Or density..
It's a "RGB" chip..


----------



## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> Blue/cyan/deep red..
> 
> 
> jeffkrol said:
> 
> 
> 
> It's a "RGB" chip..
Click to expand...

 RGB stands for red green and blue. Do you see the difference?


*OCW Ocean Coral White LED spectrum:* (Your "RGB" recommendation)










*RGB LED spectrum:* (Ignore the White LED)


----------



## Greggz

TheUnseenHand said:


> I guess my point is this: You should probably get used to LED. You can see the metal halide is becoming more and more difficult to find. T5 will eventually follow this path.


This is probably true.

But with my stash of T5 bulbs, I'm not worried for quite a long time!:grin2:

That being said, if an LED came along that met ALL of my needs, I would have no problem switching over. Heck, I love gadgets and programming things. But right now the truly great ones I see are DIY. 

But I do agree, at some point I think it will be a no brainer.......just not quite there yet IMO.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> That being said, if an LED came along that met ALL of my needs, I would have no problem switching over. Heck, I love gadgets and programming things. But right now the truly great ones I see are DIY.
> 
> But I do agree, at some point I think it will be a no brainer.......just not quite there yet IMO.


My sentiments exactly


----------



## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> RGB stands for red green and blue. Do you see the difference?
> 
> 
> *OCW Ocean Coral White LED spectrum:* (Your "RGB" recommendation)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *RGB LED spectrum:* (Ignore the White LED)


I was young back then.. 

Cyan is blue/green in the higher wavelengths (500nm) make "white "just fine..


Anyways point is if one add any white it has plenty of green. but NO arrays have much in the way of "cyan" but select high CRI LED's


you want better lights think cyan..


simple gro-lux tube.. wide blue/cyan content..








https://www.carnivorousplants.org/grow/SoilsWaterLight/FluorescentLighting






> The reason they are called OCW is because those 3 colors in a single MCPCB very close together produce produce a white light. You can't tell the colors apart when lit. One of those with a green and royal blue LEDs would look nice imo.


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/388465-ocean-coral-white-leds.html

you would be hard pressed to see some cyans as other than "green"


----------



## Maryland Guppy

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> tagging @Maryland Guppy
> pretty sure he still has cobs, maybe veros? iirc


I am cheap, remember!!! >>>

Still using these.









Each disk has 3-full spectrum & 3-15K around the perimeter.
One disk has a green and the other a blue in the center, mounted on heat sink.
All are 3 watt so 42 watts on each heatsink (2 disks), 294 watts over my 80G.
Cost for 1 disks with 7-3watt LED beads is about $0.85 per disk.


----------



## Edward

Maryland Guppy said:


> I am cheap, remember!!! >>>
> 
> Still using these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Each disk has 3-full spectrum & 3-15K around the perimeter.
> One disk has a green and the other a blue in the center, mounted on heat sink.
> All are 3 watt so 42 watts on each heatsink (2 disks), 294 watts over my 80G.
> Cost for 1 disks with 7-3watt LED beads is about $0.85 per disk.


Nice!
Three questions, was the LED colour selection your choice and does the total voltage and current correspond to the 294 Watts and are you using lenses?

My idea is to try 50W RGB COB chip lights, something like ADA Solar RGB & Kessil A160WE Tuna Sun hybrid. They are on order already and waiting for delivery. 


Heat sink 100W with reflector and 60 degree glass lens. This should cover 18” surface diameter at 18” above water line:










Rated triple 48W RGB current limited power supply:










RGB LED COB 50W chip:










Not sure if somebody already tried this configuration with planted aquarium. It should produce 80 – 100 visible PAR, and 200 - 250 white equivalent PAR, at 24” depth, as per Light Calculator.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Edward said:


> Nice!
> Three questions, was the LED colour selection your choice and does the total voltage and current correspond to the 294 Watts and are you using lenses?
> 
> Not sure if somebody already tried this configuration with planted aquarium. This should produce 200-250 PAR white equivalent at 24” depth, as per https://rotalabutterfly.com/light-calculator.php .


Each 42 watt dual puck heatsink has it's own LDD 700mA driver.
No lenses, all 120 degree cheap 3 watt beads.
All controlled from a StormX controller via PWM dimming.
7 drivers to run my 80G tank @ about $4.50 ea.
Power supply is a 10amp max 52VDC repurposed from work, they destroy label applicator machines by hitting them with fork truck and I confiscate power supplies when they become available.

The Colors:
I solder all of those beads on the disk so I get to pick!
520nm was my last addition and it makes green plants look better.
I never studied plant growth with experiment just tried to make the visual appearance to my liking.
Never worried about CRI rating etc...
Full blast is close to 300PAR @ sub but never ran them that high.
Even though they have fans I was worried about heat and LED lifespan.
PUR is in the high 70's so I'm good with it.


----------



## ChrisX

Maryland Guppy said:


> Each 42 watt dual puck heatsink has it's own LDD 700mA driver.
> No lenses, all 120 degree cheap 3 watt beads.
> All controlled from a StormX controller via PWM dimming.
> 7 drivers to run my 80G tank @ about $4.50 ea.
> Power supply is a 10amp max 52VDC repurposed from work, they destroy label applicator machines by hitting them with fork truck and I confiscate power supplies when they become available.
> 
> The Colors:
> I solder all of those beads on the disk so I get to pick!
> 520nm was my last addition and it makes green plants look better.
> I never studied plant growth with experiment just tried to make the visual appearance to my liking.
> Never worried about CRI rating etc...
> Full blast is close to 300PAR @ sub but never ran them that high.
> Even though they have fans I was worried about heat and LED lifespan.
> PUR is in the high 70's so I'm good with it.



Have those pucks been reliable? 

I used to experience failures of the 3W epileds mounted with their star board, but since removing them from the board and gluing them directly to the aluminum, I haven't had a single failure (going on two years?)

In the next iteration of my light, I'm considering clusters of closely spaced LEDS for better color mixing. The pucks would clean up the wiring, but not worth it if they increase the failure rate.

I believe the failures were happening because the leds were coming separated from their boards.


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## Maryland Guppy

ChrisX said:


> Have those pucks been reliable?


The disks have never required replacement. Remember I solder these myself.
Some LEDs have been replaced mostly due to splashing of water from spraybar.
I remedied the spraybar issue and no more.

3 watt LED loss in a year, maybe 2-3 single beads fail.
I keep extra assemblies so I swap out the entire heatsink and all.
Once a year I add the required 3 watt beads.

Small price to pay for cheap lighting.


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## Freemananana

Speaking from an industrial point of view: LED is the future and you will be forced into it. HID lighting (Fluorescent and Metal Halide) are being obsoleted at a rapid pace. Many manufacturers are stopping production of these as LEDs are becoming so popular. I can't speak to our consumer market entirely, but I know GE and several other big names have stopped producing industry lighting (like highways and such) of anything but LEDs already. 

Gotta wait for the DIY hobbyists to lead the way so that companies can start mass producing the good stuff though!


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## EdWiser

The problem is that LED’s are not a broad spectrum light. An while they do fine for our bad human I sight. Plants and corals have much picker needs. Human eyesight is not a good indicator of spectrum of light or the strength of light.


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## jeffkrol

EdWiser said:


> The problem is that LED’s are not a broad spectrum light. An while they do fine for our bad human I sight. Plants and corals have much picker needs. Human eyesight is not a good indicator of spectrum of light or the strength of light.



Depends on the led ..Phosphor converted LED's can have very broad spectrums..
Green LED's have a inherently sloppy spectrum but inefficient..


But yea human eyesight isn't very quantitative..


Anyways Luminous devices LED's









t5's/MH's are just a "collection" of peaks..
Phosphors do spread them out a bit..


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## EdWiser

Having kept reef tanks forever I have used every type of light available. It all depends on what you will let go. In reef tanks it’s growth. Not all coral types grow well under LED’s they may survive but steady growth can be a challenge.


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## Jeffww

I am a purely LED user. I think it was easier to grow difficult plants with my old T5HO set up and 6300k geissman bulbs than it is my $200 plus LED fixtures (kessil, twinstar (several), UNS titan). However, I appreciate the lower heat output, power savings, and low profile offered by LED. If I were light a larger tank, greater than 30g I would reach for T5s again. However, LEDs are quite cost effective for lighting smaller tanks and I only have 3 tanks, each of which are less than 25g.


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## burr740

Setting up a new 75 gal


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## Edward

burr740 said:


> Setting up a new 75 gal


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## Hendy8888

burr740 said:


> Setting up a new 75 gal


Teasing us with that rare 9 bulb setup...:wink2:



Edward said:


>


I thought disco was an LED thing... :laugh2:


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## Patriot

Question about the way hydroponic fixtures are measured. 

There's a 6 bulb 4 foot agrobrite fixture being sold locally for $100. It's 18.3 inches wide according to the website, but my aquarium is 16 inches wide. Is this 18 inches the width of the outside of the fixture or the measurement from bulb to bulb? I think I could fit it over my tank barely without much spill over. 

I haven't been able to find a good deal on a 4 bulb unit yet. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Patriot said:


> Question about the way hydroponic fixtures are measured.
> 
> There's a 6 bulb 4 foot agrobrite fixture being sold locally for $100. It's 18.3 inches wide according to the website, but my aquarium is 16 inches wide. Is this 18 inches the width of the outside of the fixture or the measurement from bulb to bulb? I think I could fit it over my tank barely without much spill over.
> 
> I haven't been able to find a good deal on a 4 bulb unit yet.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


Mine in the pic is a 4 foot 6 bulb Agrobrite. Used it for probably 2.5 years in all, good light. 

18.5 is outside measurement of the fixture itself. Center to center from each outside bulb is about 14"


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Setting up a new 75 gal


Love it. 

You are speaking my language!!:grin2:


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## Patriot

burr740 said:


> Mine in the pic is a 4 foot 6 bulb Agrobrite. Used it for probably 2.5 years in all, good light.
> 
> 18.5 is outside measurement of the fixture itself. Center to center from each outside bulb is about 14"


Awesome!! 

Thank you so much. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Edward

Greggz said:


> Love it. You are speaking my language!!:grin2:


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## Greggz

Hendy8888 said:


> I thought disco was an LED thing... :laugh2:


+1.

Poor disco lights..........but disco lights nonetheless!!!:grin2:


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## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Setting up a new 75 gal


Can't wait to see what you do with it!


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## chulai48

burr740, can you tell us what the bulb combo your are showing us is?


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## burr740

chulai48 said:


> burr740, can you tell us what the bulb combo your are showing us is?












Starting at the front (bottom)

Agromax Pure Par - hydroponic brand similar to ati purple
Plantmax 3000K
Powerveg 660
TureLumen Flora
6400K
Wavepoint UG - this bulb hangs off the back and doesnt shine much in the tank. The fixture is as wide as the tank (18") and I dont like it flush with the front so its moved back off center 2-3"

I'll probably change out a bulb or two after its planted and I see how it looks. Still a blank canvas atm


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## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Starting at the front (bottom)
> 
> Agromax Pure Par - hydroponic brand similar to ati purple
> Plantmax 3000K
> Powerveg 660
> TureLumen Flora
> 6400K
> Wavepoint UG - this bulb hangs off the back and doesnt shine much in the tank. The fixture is as wide as the tank (18") and I dont like it flush with the front so its moved back off center 2-3"
> 
> I'll try to remember to post a pic when its planted to show the color rendition. Its still a blank canvas atm


is that bdbs or landen?


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## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> is that bdbs or landen?


Landen. Its just a new farm tank to grow stuff, no special plans. I'll post more details in the journal one day pretty soon


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## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Landen. Its just a new farm tank to grow stuff, no special plans. I'll post more details in the journal one day pretty soon


what about the main? are you just gonna keep bdbs in that one? been thinking of switching to an aquasoil but idk if it's worth it for me cuz i'll run through the buffer pretty easily lol


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## Patriot

Just picked up my light today. The Previous Owner had UV bulbs in the fixture. Not sure what UV lights would be used for though. 

Now the challenge is figuring out how to hang it above the tank. 

















Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol

Tanning..


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## vvDO

jeffkrol said:


> Tanning..



Melanoma?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Patriot

I turned it on not knowing they were UV lights. My eyes still hurt. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Patriot

Finally got the light hanging. Now I can join the club and discussions about the lights and stuff. 

This light fixture was wider than I thought which is giving me a bit of a hot spot on the back wall. Maybe I should've went with a 4 bulb unit. But I suppose I can always use it when I get a bigger tank. 

I'm going to order some bulbs tomorrow.
















Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> PERSONALLY, though punchy RGB are not a preferred "look to me"..
> Got thing thing about holes in the spectrum..





jeffkrol said:


> My above chart is from Chihiros WRGB..
> There is a lack (when excluding the whites) of sufficient light in the 470-500nm spectrum .. If you had a pure pigment that reflected say just 480nm light it would appear at best weak.
> Same w/ the 570-610nm range, or >650.
> Now few of these may exist in nature but the point still is some unrepresented spectrum.
> W/ things w/ a range of reflectance the seperation is less, so much appears monotone..
> 
> Now it may be a matter of photos but that's what I see w/ ADA and many RGB tanks.. monotone BRIGHT greens w/ little subtlety in shade.


Assuming your monitor is calibrated, how many shades of green do you see?
picture 1










This video is from ADA gallery with RGB lighting presentation. Can you see the many shades of green here? These fixtures don’t have any white LEDs. 
picture 2


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## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> Assuming your monitor is calibrated, how many shades of green do you see?
> picture 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This video is from ADA gallery with RGB lighting presentation. Can you see the many shades of green here? These fixtures don’t have any white LEDs.



Green to yellow green is just fine.. It's the "bluer" shades that are missing.
No not just desaturated green...










Problem is with a low cyan (blue green range) and RGB monitors you can't tell which are "accurate"..
Of course most printers are CMYK so thay will print it different as well..




you can't MAKE up wavelengths, you can only fake them,,
Blue plus green is not cyan though it can fake it just fine..sometimes.


Hey I said it was just me... 
SEE the chart at the below link..Ruander.com: Emission Spectrum

Ok first 9 patches. Second tank (cut image) looks fairly monotone in green "to me"....

minor point.. Note the increase in reflection from about 500 to 650.
I can't get pngs to open so it's a link:
http://gsp.humboldt.edu/OLM/Courses/GSP_216_Online/images/veg-reflect.PNG 









fun read..
https://www.led-professional.com/re...ent-pigmented-glazes-by-light-spectrum-glazes


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## Edward

jeffkrol said:


> you can't MAKE up wavelengths, you can only fake them,,
> Blue plus green is not cyan though it can fake it just fine..sometimes.


What about these two scenarios. When we send a beam of light created by yellow light source on to a white surface we will see yellow surface. But, when we send a beam of light created by red and green light sources then I will see yellow again and you will see spectral hole. What is it like, the red and green disappears and you see dark space?


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## jeffkrol

Edward said:


> What about these two scenarios. When we send a beam of light created by yellow light source on to a white surface we will see yellow surface. But, when we send a beam of light created by red and green light sources then I will see yellow again and you will see spectral hole. What is it like, the red and green disappears and you see dark space?



your eye sees in RGB as well.. 

BUT there is no "yellow" nm's.. Just physics..and brain trickery..



Technically you can't SEE yellow either. your brain interpolates blue and green of equal intensity is yellow.
https://visual.ly/blog/the-use-of-yellow-in-data-design/




Say you have a pigment that only reflects in the 500nm wavelength and absorbs everything else..and your light source has zero 500nm light.

It will look black to you since no light energy is returned from it in the VISUAL range (it's pretty sloppy so bear with me) ..
IF it only reflects cyan say, your "sloppy" eye could/will pick it up as part green part blue..



You only "see" 500nm because your brain sees blue and green and pretends it's cyan..


See there is you and there are pigments..both see things differently so to speak..


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## jeffkrol

Major correction to the above


> minor point.. Note the increase in reflection from about 500 to 650.


Not accurate .. Most of the increased reflection does not include the cyan range AFAICT.
Fairly major absorption by both chlorophyll and carotinoid pigments.. 
Soo I'll just leave (pun intended) the subjective judgement on the look of cyan vs reg green as just that.. Subjective.
I've got a Finnex 24/7 ..rgb/white that, though I certainly can't say it looks bad , it doesn't, doesn't have the same look as a cyan/deep/red/white/blue array..
But again, a personal call.....
One thing though, I'm not going to deviate from the fact that there are def. shades of color that get lost w/ narrow band spectums.. be it blue greens green yellows or various reds..
Matter of fact that seems to be one part of why some see tubes as better than LED's .. spectrum spread at certain wavelengths.

As to RGB I'll still promote my "belief" that a balanced broad spectrum is still an advantage for both the plants and people...though admitting it's probably
a minor thing in the scheme of life..

Below image is a as close as I can get composite of an ADA solar spectrum (w/ "white" led background) over the absorption spectrum of major plant pigment groups..
Note what doesn't get absorbed generally gets reflected.. and "capture" is never 100%











A bit harder to see since reflection graphs focus on IR but you may get the picture. Keep in mind if the spectrum isn't there it can't be reflected..
Now what the human eye does w/ this is ?? and also ones own perception, much like music tones I suppose or frequencies.









It's why lights look different w/ the same plants..









On the left ADA RGB Solar and on the right Twinstar s series.
Plants and people adapt..


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## gus6464

Hmm I see the ADA has more separation of color although I like purple tinges. Crisp factor though ADA wins.


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## BOTIA

You guys sure like to make it complicated.. When I had my 75 G it was just 3x 54w T5HO 65K bulbs /with reflectors and two grolux bulbs to keep the brightness down. With that I could and did grow anything I wanted so fast I needed a weed wacker in there on a weekly basis. Paid for all my fish food with store credit selling them plants.


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## Greggz

BOTIA said:


> You guys sure like to make it complicated.. When I had my 75 G it was just 3x 54w T5HO 65K bulbs /with reflectors and two grolux bulbs to keep the brightness down. With that I could and did grow anything I wanted so fast I needed a weed wacker in there on a weekly basis. Paid for all my fish food with store credit selling them plants.


Much of the discussion about light is not related to plant growth.

It has to do with how the color of light affects how we perceive color in the tank.

Most of the best tanks that I follow go to great lengths to adjust color to their liking. It makes a world of difference in the presentation of the plants and fish.

And we all have different tastes. To my eye, too much 6500K lighting makes a tank look yellow. I couldn't live with it. But that's just me. To each his own.


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## torhav

jeffkrol said:


> Green to yellow green is just fine.. It's the "bluer" shades that are missing.
> No not just desaturated green...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem is with a low cyan (blue green range) and RGB monitors you can't tell which are "accurate"..
> Of course most printers are CMYK so thay will print it different as well..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> you can't MAKE up wavelengths, you can only fake them,,
> Blue plus green is not cyan though it can fake it just fine..sometimes.
> 
> 
> Hey I said it was just me...
> SEE the chart at the below link..Ruander.com: Emission Spectrum
> 
> Ok first 9 patches. Second tank (cut image) looks fairly monotone in green "to me"....
> 
> minor point.. Note the increase in reflection from about 500 to 650.
> I can't get pngs to open so it's a link:
> http://gsp.humboldt.edu/OLM/Courses/GSP_216_Online/images/veg-reflect.PNG
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fun read..
> https://www.led-professional.com/re...ent-pigmented-glazes-by-light-spectrum-glazes


There is quite a difference between dominant wavelengths on the warm white LEDs from the article and these from Cree. Especially in the 450 nm area. Would they be percieved different to the eye, or look the same? Plants should benefit from the extra blue spectrum, right?
I have just built a fixture without blue LEDs because of the high content of blue spectrum in white LEDs from Cree. A bit nervous about the light looking yellowish, as mentioned by Greggz. Went for an equal amount of 3500K/4500K/6500K+reds.


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## jeffkrol

torhav said:


> There is quite a difference between dominant wavelengths on the warm white LEDs from the article and these from Cree. Especially in the 450 nm area. Would they be percieved different to the eye, or look the same? Plants should benefit from the extra blue spectrum, right?
> I have just built a fixture without blue LEDs because of the high content of blue spectrum in white LEDs from Cree. A bit nervous about the light looking yellowish, as mentioned by Greggz. Went for an equal amount of 3500K/4500K/6500K+reds.



Yea, it's possible. Most 6500k have either a pronounced yellow/green tinge to slightly yellow..
A few do not.. 

The 6500k CREE will depend on it's CRI..but even some high CRI Crees don't fill the cyan gap and just up the CRI of red.


Spectrum does determine look but some is also individual sensitivity..
You'll see for yourself I guess..


Nothing wrong w/ your choices, and in a sense pretty standard..


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## torhav

All four strings can be dimmed separately, so I hope I can find a setting that appeals to me. If that does not work out, I will change the 3500K with blues.


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## BOTIA

Greggz said:


> Much of the discussion about light is not related to plant growth.
> 
> It has to do with how the color of light affects how we perceive color in the tank.
> 
> Most of the best tanks that I follow go to great lengths to adjust color to their liking. It makes a world of difference in the presentation of the plants and fish.
> 
> And we all have different tastes. To my eye, too much 6500K lighting makes a tank look yellow. I couldn't live with it. But that's just me. To each his own.


I'm surprised you would find 65K bulbs yellow.., with CRI 85 (ge ecolux) I used I always found it very crisp which Is why interspersed Sylvania grolux in between to keep visible lumens down and see p my loaches less irradiated
I'm now using 10K 5730 leds , with small mix of Reds, greens(for cri) and blues for bringing out colour in my Praecox rainbows and Espie rasboras.
I don't miss the cost of bulb replacement plus hassle as I had to drive 1-2 hrs just to get them.


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## jeffkrol

BOTIA said:


> I'm surprised you would find 65K bulbs yellow.., with CRI 85 (ge ecolux) I used I always found it very crisp which Is why interspersed Sylvania grolux in between to keep visible lumens down and see p my loaches less irradiated



Tubes are different..
Current ones use RGB phosphors. LED's use a yellow phosphor w/ blue emitter..
might as well mention the issue w/ CRI first:
Same CRI can look completely different since it's an average of at least 8 samples..



One of the reasons I always lean high CRI for LED.. eliminates that possibility..for the most part.
Good thing is like early florescent the market is "learning" about color tints in LED's

Bump:


torhav said:


> All four strings can be dimmed separately, so I hope I can find a setting that appeals to me. If that does not work out, I will change the 3500K with blues.



You'll need the 3500k's for sunset/sunrise.. IF you want that..
None of the other combos left really do it justice though 4000K isn't bad..


Besides 3500k is red rich with usually a smidge of red phosphor..


Though there is no real "right" answer..I'd consider changing out the 4000k's for something like 8000k or luxeon 6500k's..

for fun led vs tube vs plant action spectrum


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## Patriot

How is everyone keeping their tanks cools while running the T5 fixtures? I have a 6 bulb 48 inch agrobrite setup that's warming the water to 81°F when on and low 70s when off. These swings is causing my crypts to melt and I've already lost a few fish. 



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## BOTIA

Patriot said:


> How is everyone keeping their tanks cools while running the T5 fixtures? I have a 6 bulb 48 inch agrobrite setup that's warming the water to 81°F when on and low 70s when off. These swings is causing my crypts to melt and I've already lost a few fish.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk




I had installed 100mm computer fans 1 exhaust at one end intake at the other end. they came on when lights came on. no heater needed

On my newest tank I don't need a heater. Comer summer I will dial back lighting times uv will be off at night.


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## Chlorophile

Patriot said:


> How is everyone keeping their tanks cools while running the T5 fixtures? I have a 6 bulb 48 inch agrobrite setup that's warming the water to 81°F when on and low 70s when off. These swings is causing my crypts to melt and I've already lost a few fish.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


I cant stand heat so my house is always colder than my tanks so they're always heated..


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## HairyNoseWombat

Hi

Just the thread I was looking for.

I currently have a Beanworks Viva grow on my 2 foot 15 gallon tank, nice light, When my other LED finally quit while I was waiting for the Vivagrow to arrive I borrowed a friends spare fluro light, it had a single Aqua one Tropical 20 w T8 and to be honest I actually loved the way everything looked under the light. 

In fact I loved it so much I have a question, Is one 20w tube enough? the housing has room for 2 tubes and what combination of tubes would you use?

This is the tank, sorry it just had a bit of a prune and water change
https://imgur.com/T8bz16G


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## eXa

Nice discussion, lots of good info etc  

Got me thinking a little bit. Ive been using chihiros on some of my tanks, which have 8000k white leds and nothing more. I just fixed one that was water damaged and noticed its nothing fancy when it comes to the rigid led strips they are using. So now im thinking about removing some portion of the white led strip (can be cut between every 3 leds as all other strips) and adding some 660nm red led strip instead. If i can find some. The 8000k white leds already contain alot of blue (tho lacking cyan as pretty much all white leds do). At the same time ill probably add frosting to the cover to blend the light more, and silcone to waterproof them.


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## BOTIA

eXa said:


> Nice discussion, lots of good info etc
> 
> 
> 
> Got me thinking a little bit. Ive been using chihiros on some of my tanks, which have 8000k white leds and nothing more. I just fixed one that was water damaged and noticed its nothing fancy when it comes to the rigid led strips they are using. So now im thinking about removing some portion of the white led strip (can be cut between every 3 leds as all other strips) and adding some 660nm red led strip instead. If i can find some. The 8000k white leds already contain alot of blue (tho lacking cyan as pretty much all white leds do). At the same time ill probably add frosting to the cover to blend the light more, and silcone to waterproof them.




You can get grow strip (pink) leds on ebay sometimes.









When I ran t5Ho I always ran a few grolux pink bulbs , grew plants and I liked the colour tone with them and 65k's


----------



## eXa

Yes, I would prefer straight only 660nm red, but I have actually ordered 5m of that led strip as a compromise, chose 5:1 since I don't really need the blue ones at all. So will try that atleast.


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## aquapadawan

aqua_rob said:


> Currently I run LED lights on my tanks, AI prime freshwater on 1 and an SBreef on the other. They work fine but it seems like all the really great tanks on here are using T5HO
> 
> I am planning on buying a 72 gallon tank from Waterbox and thought I might switch to T5HO. That is until I started looking for bulbs. I'll be damned if I can find anywhere that has a good selection in stock
> Was thinking a purple, a truelumen flora, power veg 660 and one more but I couldn't find a single source to get all
> 
> Add on to that I don't REALLY know what I'm looking for and I'm stuck
> 
> Where do y'all get bulbs? Any recommendations? I've also considered trying harrisseeds.com/products/41698-4-active-grow-4-tube-red-bloom-spectrum-t5-ho-led-fixture with 2 widespectrum but then I'm right back at LEDs and that kind of defeats the purpose...


I bought a 24" used dual bulb high output t5 24 watt each bulb from a local guy on facebook marketplace for 10 bucks used. He had new ones for 30 but not high output. Then on amazon I got a 2 pack of 24 watt HO 6500 bulbs for about 5 bucks free shipping. Not sure how that was possible but it was a great solution. The plants love it and zero algae in that tank. However, in my LED tank , I can not seem to rid myself of algae. That one is near the window though even though I have a dark curtain I'm sure light gets through. I prefer my T5 light to my LED. I am not even really sure why . Maybe I like the modularity, I can change one bulb to another temperature, or turn off only one. It may use more energy, but I still believe by visual evaluation of the tanks I have that plants like it better.


----------

