# NotThePainter's 75G - Phoenix reborn



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I woke up this mornin to 65 gallons of water... still in the tank! No leaks. Yay!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I threw 2 pieces of driftwood in the 65. One was stored outside and I wanted to bring it up the temperature. Plus, I wanted to remember what it looked like. Both these pieces and the hidden one in the 75 came from the same super large piece. I had to saw it up so I could use it after I sold my 125G tank.










I'm not sure which one or ones I'll use in the 75G Jungle. It will eventually get covered up by plants, even the Neglect Tank of Plant Death was able to cover the driftwood!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Yesterday I started the transfer of the fish and plants into the 65 gallon tank. I took about half the water out.










Then I started trying to catch fish. I knew it would be hard, I forgot about how impossible that would be. So I moved the hardscape and that threw up a lot of mulm. Now it was even harder since I couldn't see into the tank. So... all the plants came up next. Man, some of the crypts had roots that were 30" long! I also made a big mistake, I forgot to turn the pump off so a lot of the silty water made it into the 65 gallon.

I got about half the fish but the 75 was now coffee colored, I couldn't see anything. So I drained it down to about an inch or two. Then filled to about 4 inches. This was essentially a 50% change so the water chemistry shouldn't shock the fish too much. Then I drained it down to an inch or two. It was now a simple, LOL, matter to outsmart the fish. I had dinner and let the silt settle and found one more fish.










I made some gravel dams in the lowered tank to restrict the fishes' movements.










Hours later I did a fry check. I use a bright flashlight angled obliquely. Everything casts a shadow and if a shadow moves, fish! I didn't see any fry.










Today's task is to clean the gravel and try to decide on the hardscape. I think I know what I want to do but I need to try both of the huge pieces in various configurations.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I got all the substrate out and washed and 90% of the mulm out that was leftover in the tank. I found a shrimp still alive. I had been dropping my culls in there. They became fish food or they became good at survival. This one was a survivor. He was now living in 75 gallons of chlorinated tap water! I drop some de-chlor in, baited a shrimp trap, but he was too clever. I eventually had to drain the tank and caught him when it only had an inch of water.

He went back into the shrimp tank, I want those survival genes!

Placed with hardscape, made a poll here. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-jungle-scape-help-me-place-my-driftwood.html

Oh, it was 7 hours straight today, just a short break for a lunch! Yikes.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Another long day, 6 hours. But the tank is setup and running! Much of the time was spent sitting and thinking, or letting by back stop aching from bending over the tank!

No pictures since the fines need to get filtered out and some random bits of root also need to get filtered. I've netted them three times but more keeps coming up off the substrate.

Oh, I spent a bunch of time with vinegar and various scrapers trying to get the scale off the water line. It is much better but not perfect.


----------



## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> Another long day, 6 hours. But the tank is setup and running! Much of the time was spent sitting and thinking, or letting by back stop aching from bending over the tank!
> 
> No pictures since the fines need to get filtered out and some random bits of root also need to get filtered. I've netted them three times but more keeps coming up off the substrate.
> 
> Oh, I spent a bunch of time with vinegar and various scrapers trying to get the scale off the water line. It is much better but not perfect.


I read somewhere here that if you soak a paper towel with vinegar and let it rest on the glass for a while it will do a really good job. You might need to lay the tank in various positions to get it all off but this is the time to nail it!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

mourip said:


> I read somewhere here that if you soak a paper towel with vinegar and let it rest on the glass for a while it will do a really good job. You might need to lay the tank in various positions to get it all off but this is the time to nail it!


Too late!

I had read that putting the tank on it's side and soaking was the answers. That's mighty hard to do with a 75 gallon. I got much of it off and my hope was that as long as the scaled parts was underwater it wouldn't look so bad, and it turns out I got lucky. I don't see it now unless I'm looking really closely.

I will use that paper towel trick on the covers though. That should work out really well, so thanks!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

And here it is!










I really hope the fines clear out more. Overall I'm quite happy with the layout. The plants are all ugly but that was true before. I've dosed the water with Thrive and I'll get the Thrive roots tabs in soon. I've been told to go slow with them, that sick plants are slow to take up nutrients.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

2 weeks later it looks like this:










The Aponogeton ulvaceus is dying off, but it did send out a second flower stalk which is huge, this one must be 3 feet long, usually it just makes it to the surface. It also has some leaves on it. The middle and right crypts are melting, but that's no surprise. The left hand crypts seem to be growing, or maybe just unfolding.

The tiny swords you can't really see aren't thriving. I'm surprised, but it might be too soon. I've put 2 new swords in the back right.

I've started dosing the micro and macros DIY from Nilocg, but only doing it once a week, not every other as they suggest in the EI method. (I wanted to go slow.)

The "bad" news is that I wanted to show off my Cerges reactor. I just got it glued up but I screwed up and need to repair it.

In the better habits category, I timed myself doing all the maintenance on the 75, 40 and 4. 64 minutes for glass cleaning, water changes, and dosing. That includes fetching all the gear and putting it away. Really, I don't have any excuse to not be a better fish keeper. I'll keep it up.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

My DIY Cerges is installed! I'll turn the CO2 on tomorrow.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

And so the journey down the Rabbit Hole begins 
Have spent about 4 yours down that hole - would not have it any other way.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> And so the journey down the Rabbit Hole begins
> Have spent about 4 yours down that hole - would not have it any other way.


It's not my first rodeo. I designed and built a 30 gallon sump for a 75 gallon cichlid tank. Love doing this stuff. Already googling auto dosers approaches. LOL, auto-correct turned it into auto losers.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> It's not my first rodeo. I designed and built a 30 gallon sump for a 75 gallon cichlid tank. Love doing this stuff. Already googling auto dosers approaches. LOL, auto-correct turned it into auto losers.


Regarding auto dosers - I just got a Kamoer X1 micro pump - really liking the bluetooth software app.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Regarding auto dosers - I just got a Kamoer X1 micro pump - really liking the bluetooth software app.


Interesting. That's wicked expensive compared to the cheap pumps you find on the 'bay or amazon. I planned on controlling mine with HomeKit, so the blue tooth isn't that necessary. I'm curious, what are other advantages? Is it better built than the cheap ones?


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Interesting. That's wicked expensive compared to the cheap pumps you find on the 'bay or amazon. I planned on controlling mine with HomeKit, so the blue tooth isn't that necessary. I'm curious, what are other advantages? Is it better built than the cheap ones?


I cannot say if it's better - first one I have ever owned. The Jebao DP-4 seems to be the most popular but I really had no need for 4 pumps. Something I do not like, in general, is programming a device thru a tiny screen on the device using multiple button pushes. What I wanted was something I could program / review thru my phone or tablet. Make changes as needed, and in general be easy to use. What I got does not take up much space, is very user friendly in my opinion, and seems to have a very good reliability record. 
Read too many Jebao reviews where the pump head fails in a relatively short time. 
As for price, I think I paid $60 ish for the single pump head.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Time for a mini update.

I've spent all week dialing in the CO2 system. I can get my drop checker in the green but it is too much fun playing with all the knobs so basically I'm just learning how it all works. If you want the gory details, there's a bunch of us talking about in the DIY section.

This week I got my power strips that support Apple HomeKit. This is nice, I can turn the eheim on and off with my phone during water changes. Sadly, I can't have it send me a text 2 hours later, "Hey moron, did you remember to turn the Eheim on?" I need to look into that.

I had hoped to wire up the cabinet but after week spent on my knees every so often and today's water change and canister servicing, my back just said "hey, there's always tomorrow!"

On the plants side, I'm still doing the NiclocG "every other day" amount weekly since I have so little plant growth and until recently, no CO2. I'm thinking of boosting that now to the daily dosing, or more accurately, the every other day dosing. I had been making a huge mistake with the GH booster, using tablespoons, not teaspoons. I don't know what the GH is in the tank, I stopped after 20 drops! I'll measure tomorrow since I did a 50% change today.

During the 50% change I cleaned out the spray bar. Wow, there was a lot of crud in there. I need to clean my hoses next. 

I'm starting to see new growth in the green, center, crypts and new leave on the anubias. All the crypts have started serious meltdown, not unexpected, but I'm surprised it took so long. The 4 swords aren't doing anything. (And yes, they have a thrive capsule under each of them. 2 are from the "old" tank and two are new from the LFS.

The new swords are getting algae covered. And sadly, I started seeing some BBA on the front glass, so it must be on the plants also. I know there are plenty of articles about that. I need to read them again.

Oh, and I got pearling out of most plants this last week, that was nice.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Finally tidied up the electronics. I used to have 2 power strips outside the stand so I could mess with the timers. The two strips on the left support Apple Home Kit, so the timers are set by my phone (and run off the Apple TV "base station") The USB ports are switchable, per strip, but that's good enough for macro and micro dosing.










The only plug I'll need to access in the Eheim canister. And that's the bottom left one and that's only when servicing the media.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I am very hooked on smart plugs/power strips. SO much better than old mechanical timers.
Looks like you still have a bit of room to expand (smart power strips) which is good! 
Had to smile a bit at the very clean Eheim tubing - been awhile since mine looked that good


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Hey, that Cerges looks vaguely familiar... I do not know why.  

Liking the smart strips. I'm not running any yet but should be remedying that pretty soon. One thing I'm bummed about is that Ahrise was selling an 8 plug smart strip on Amazon for $26.xx with string reviews and I didn't pull the trigger. Now they're not available anymore. Of course there are the Kasa strips but they're about $54.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

The smart strips are really sweet. I recommend them!

As for the clean tubing, that's because they are brand new! At least that side is. I needed to replace one because the old one wouldn't reach the reactor.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Oddly enough, I checked Amazon today and the smart power strips are back in stock. I picked one up along with a few power splitter cords. For anyone who is interested, here is a link to smart power strip.



https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07WGN3X5F/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_fabc_94BD2KZF20K5QE5MDK03?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> For anyone who is interested, here is a link to smart power strip.


Nice!

And if you need Apple HomeKit, just get this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NBNJ32V/


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

My BBA is still there, I won't say it is better or worse. It is still pretty small. But on Friday I noticed a new Anubias leaf was turning yellow. So I dosed Micros. I've been using the NilocG DIY dry powders but only dosing once a week, not 3x. So I did Micros on Friday, 50% change on Saturday and Macros to replace those that got flushed. Sunday will be my rest day I guess and hey, that Anubias leaf is getting some green back!

I picked up an Echinodorus 'Barthii' at my LFS and planted that in the back. I did a snail check but not a bleach dip. That's the last time. You, I also replaced my 12 Cardinals from the death batch (everyone in the box died). So I put the new 12 in the Q tank on Saturday and today, ick!

I guess I shouldn't worry too much since many believe that ick is in all tanks, just under control and the 75 is full on non-stressed fish. I checked the cherry barbs, since the males are so dark, and they look fine. But phew...

So I spent a lot of the afternoon tearing down the Q tank. I'm doing the dual buckets method of ick control. Bare bottom buckets, hot water, probably some ParaGuard, but 100% water change a day so the little buggers that come out of the cysts won't find any hosts.

I did work some on the Matheson Rotameter, but the wooden mount I made for it was crap. So I just drilled some 1/2" holes in wood and reamed it out sort of hexagonal and I'll get that mounted up soon, probably tomorrow night. There is Superb Owl I need to watch tonight. I glued a 2x4 section to the stand's center brace. I'll use double side tape to attach the rotameter to that. So it will be sturdy but removable also.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I completely redesign my Cerges reactor, but you can read about that over in DIY. But pics are always nice.










I'm dosing full EI macros now, and 1/2 micros, but will probably go full micros soon. The BBA is getting worse. It isn't horrid yet but I'm starting to worry.

All the anubias are taking off, which is nice. The left (tall) and middle (green) crypts are growing some, but the radish crypts on the right are still stagnant.

The new swords are starting to perk up some.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Wow, 29 days since an update! Oops. I've been busy over in the DIY section working on my Cerges, you can read about that over there.

The good news is that finished the modifications to my Cerges and have been tuning it for a few days.










I'm close to having the CO2 dialed in. CO2 goes on at 5:30AM and off at 5:30PM. At 4:30PM the drop checker was just heading towards yellow, so I might be too ambitious, but the fish seem fine. I bumped it up twice today, starting at 35 SCCM, then to 40 around 8:30AM, then to 45 at 12:30. I guess I could back it off a tiny bit but I'm greedy.

Oh, the KH is 3 or 4, starting pH is 7.4-7.6 and the final pH is around 6.2. I'm right in the middle of the colors so it is hard to tell, but I'm certainly in the danger zone, that's for sure.

My plants are doing worse actually, there were without CO2 all last week but during the week before I was see new growth go bad. So I went do the straight EI dosing schedule.

My nitrates are through the roof, but I'm not convinced that the ferts are doing it. (My wife's tank is also through the roof and she fertilizes on a different schedule and we're seeing some nitrates in our tap water. We've been working with the town and API on this.)

I hope for a stable tank soon, then I can start working on growth issues. I'm confident I'll have a good CO2 number soon. My biggest concern is that I'm not putting enough CO2 in early enough. I have a skimmer and I have good surface agitation, but I don't get decent pearling until noontime.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Drop checker was yellow at 5:45, but we know that lags...


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I'm sure you already know this but pearling isn't necessarily a sign of adequate CO2. Many people use reactors with their systems dialed in and do not have much pearling. 

I'm a little surprised you're measuring pH and still employing a drop checker. 

Happy to hear your working with the city on your tap water.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> I'm sure you already know this but pearling isn't necessarily a sign of adequate CO2.


I didn't know that!



ReeferRusso said:


> Many people use reactors with their systems dialed in and do not have much pearling.
> 
> I'm a little surprised you're measuring pH and still employing a drop checker.


That's only when dialing it in. I know that the drop checker lags so I'm just being careful today and tomorrow. It is easy sitting right next to the tank at work.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Regarding the algae issue, what is your light and light schedule and how much/often are you doing water changes?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I'd call my tank low to moderate. 12 hours on, with half hour ramp up/down. 50% changes weekly. EI dosing.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

NotThePainter said:


> I'd call my tank low to moderate. 12 hours on, with half hour ramp up/down. 50% changes weekly. EI dosing.


Do you know the actual light model or par by any chance? You can fake a par meter by downloading the 'lux meter' app for your phone getting a reading using the light off the tank at the same distance from substrate, and then dividing by 80. This is a very rough approximation but is better than nothing. 

Also 12 hours is a long time for many planted tanks. Folks that do successfully have their lights on that long tend to be very firmly in the low light (even very low light) territory. I do 8 hour times for my tanks but some folk keep light on only for 6 hours. You can split up the time period to extend viewing hours if needed but its probably going to be a good idea to reduce your photoperiod pretty dramatically.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I agree with @minorhero - 11 hours at full power might be a bit much. FWIW, my lights at the highest power setting are around 110 PAR (3 highest marks) which would be 1pm to 7pm. I suppose, technically they are on from 11am to 10pm.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Do you know the actual light model or par by any chance? You can fake a par meter by downloading the 'lux meter' app for your phone getting a reading using the light off the tank at the same distance from substrate, and then dividing by 80. This is a very rough approximation but is better than nothing.


Oh what fun. Most of my career has been writing software to measure light. I'll get right on that. I have 2 lights, an old Beamswork and a newer Aqueon. I think the total is 4,000 lumens but I know we speak PAR now. Man, I remember Watts. LOL.

I'll get that app, if on iOS, and run it this weekend.



minorhero said:


> Also 12 hours is a long time for many planted tanks. Folks that do successfully have their lights on that long tend to be very firmly in the low light (even very low light) territory. I do 8 hour times for my tanks but some folk keep light on only for 6 hours. You can split up the time period to extend viewing hours if needed but its probably going to be a good idea to reduce your photoperiod pretty dramatically.


That's my old "fish first" experience. Most tropical fish come from, uhhh, the tropics, where the days is about 12 hours long. I can easily trim that.

The Beamswork is the bright light, that's controlled with a Wifi timer, so that's easy to play with. The Aqueon has that silly remote, but it's so dim I can just have that on in the evening when I'm not in the office. (It's my office tank!)


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

6:15AM. I turned the CO2 down to 40 SCCM, just because I was spoked by the yellow and the ~1.2 or more pH drop. I also boosted the pump speed from 35% to 67% (which actually boosts it from 11 watts to 18watts out of a maximum 20watts, so who really knows what the GPH really is...) I was really pleased to see, well, hear actually, no glurping sounds from the reactor. I think the higher flow through the reactor will result in more rapid pH climb in the early part of the day.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Do you know the actual light model or par by any chance? You can fake a par meter by downloading the 'lux meter' app for your phone getting a reading using the light off the tank at the same distance from substrate, and then dividing by 80. This is a very rough approximation but is better than nothing.


So I just buy the Korona app for iOS (Korona - Grow Light Meter), buy the $5 LED full spectrum pack, and then drop my waterproof phone onto the substrate? It claims to measure PAR and their website is full of praise for themselves... :- )


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

NotThePainter said:


> So I just buy the Korona app for iOS (Korona - Grow Light Meter), buy the $5 LED full spectrum pack, and then drop my waterproof phone onto the substrate? It claims to measure PAR and their website is full of praise for themselves... :- )


I have no experience with that app but doubt its actually measuring par since I'm pretty sure the image sensor in the phone camera does not have that ability, more likely its doing some math to get a rough approximation. Anyway definitely don't submerge your phone, just take the light off of the tank and hold the phone under it at the same distance as your substrate is from the light.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Anyway definitely don't submerge your phone, just take the light off of the tank and hold the phone under it at the same distance as your substrate is from the light.


But doesn't the water cut down on the light? I would think it would do some, I dunno, 10% 20%?


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

NotThePainter said:


> But doesn't the water cut down on the light? I would think it would do some, I dunno, 10% 20%?


No its actually not that bad BUT measuring par under water is somewhat harder because reflections and refractions mess with a true sensor picking up the actual amount of light. As a result a par sensor calibrated for air will be low when put in water. Apogee uses a simple software fix to account for this in their par sensors. For your purposes though you just measure it in air and you will be getting a rough approximation anyway and the differences between water and air will not be enough to be noticeable given the degree of error already present.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I went to update my photoperiod to be 10 hours and found that it already was 10 hours for the bright lights. 12 hours for the dim ones. I bumped the bright ones down to 9 hours and the dim ones to 11 hours.

I played with tuning the CO2 today and had confusing results. My rotameter was reading 45 when I left it and hours later was reading 22. So I bumped it up some more and we'll see what tomorrow brings. Today's pH never dropped below 1.0 drop so I certainly had more pH drop yesterday.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Interesting issue you're having with getting your CO2 to be steady. If I remembercorrectly, you're running pretty low pressure, right? Technically, whether high pressure or low pressure should not make a difference. However, a number of flow meters and CO2 parts have recommended specs like min and max pressure. Maybe bumping the pressure up will help stabilize things. (If you're running low side.)


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Yeah, it is pretty weird. I'm not sure what the next step is. Here's today's log:

5:30am - CO2 turns on
6:30am - pH = 6.6, I also measure a sample that sat out overnight at 7.4. So drop = 0.8. Not too bad. But, the rotameter was reading 48ish. I had set it to 40 the evening before.
8:00am - pH = 6.6 (drop 0.8)
noon - pH = 6.4 (drop 1.0)
5:00pm - pH= 6.2 (drop 1.2) drop checker tinged with yellow
The CO2 turns off at 5:30pm

I see a couple of options:

*Plan A* - Do nothing, but maybe turn off the CO2 earlier, say 4 or so. I can tune this with some more measurements. I'm using a WiFi timer so timer changes are easy.
*Plan B* - Try and see why the rotameter varies, maybe bump the pressure higher like ReeferRusso suggests. This is attractive but I like the almost stability I have no. It isn't optimal, but it seems to be stable.
*Plan C* - I've found that the ball valve is crap, it is pretty hard to adjust it. I can get a lot of flow and a lot of noise or I can restrict flow. A gate valve would allow for better tuning. I had wanted to avoid another $27 gate valve but I looked around, you can get them for $9. If I had known that I would have done that. So maybe put the gate valve in and try and get my 1.2 drop earlier in the day. But then I risk killing the fish. I could tune this by turning off the reactor based on time, say a few hours in the afternoon.
*Plan D* - Use a pH controller and just aim for a 1.2ish drop.
I'm leaning towards Plan A now. Why? Right now I'm growing really easy plants and they're really not doing all that well. I think I need to make a stable system and work on my fertilization schedule. B, C, and D would be fun but the goal here is plants, not fun. Hmmm, did I really say that? Besides, once I get my ferts set I can think about automatic dosing. Who was I kidding when I thought I wanted a low tech tank...


----------



## xrayguy (May 11, 2019)

I'd vote plan B. co2 is probably more important than what you are dosing. By that I mean, if you are off a bit in your ferts it won't be as much as an impact as if you are off with your co2.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Interesting issue you're having with getting your CO2 to be steady. If I remembercorrectly, you're running pretty low pressure, right?


20psi. Bump it?


----------



## xrayguy (May 11, 2019)

mine is at 30 now. I'm running a 72g tank. Medium/high light, and I feel like i should push the pressure up a bit still.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I'd vote plan A and lower your light cycle to 8 hours to control algae.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> 20psi. Bump it?


That's the method I would start with. Try 30psi. If nothing changes then try 40psi. If nothing changes at 40psi then I would look to B, C or D.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Oops... I meant C or D.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I'll bump it up to 40 today when I'm sitting next to the tank. I'll try and maintain the 45-50 SCCM and monitor the pH.

Light cycle is already at 9 hours for the bright light. There's a view light on after that. Thanks everybody!


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I'll bump it up to 40 today when I'm sitting next to the tank. I'll try and maintain the 45-50 SCCM and monitor the pH.
> 
> Light cycle is already at 9 hours for the bright light. There's a view light on after that. Thanks everybody!


Interesting that you are having issues with dropping the pH in the tank. The setup for my 75g is running 35-40sccm @ 20psi (8-9 on the flowmeter) thru basically the same reactor as yours. 
According to my chart from Bettatail, if I increase the regulator pressure to 40psi and adjust the flowmeter to the same 8-9, my CO2 jumps to 53-62sccm. 

Your comment earlier on the ball valve was somewhat expected - I really don't like them for our purposes.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Does your flow meter scale show sccm directly, OP? Mine, for example, just show 0-150mm, but the tube only has max flow of 50ccm. 

So, for me, it's set to 85mm. I.e., 85/150*50=28.3ccm (air).


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I had forgotten about the chart! So mine measures in units of, uhhh, nothing. The tube is about 150mm long and is marked from 0 to 100. So any SCCMs I said above are wrong, they are just in scale units, or better, just percentage.

The chart is for 20psi so before I would have been putting about 65 SCCM CO2 into the tank, but I pumped it up to 30psi today and that really does seem to make the ball easier to control. With it at 30psi and the scale at 45-50 I am getting bubbles visible in the reactor during most of the day. I'll have to wait until Monday to do a "morning" test. And shouldn't the 20 be measured at the top of the rotameter, not at the regulator?

But today's measurements were still pretty interesting.


5:30AM - CO2 on
8:00AM - Boosted the psi at the regulator. The ball shot to the top and gas poured into the reactor. I turned it down a lot, settling at 50% since I erroneously thought that this was still SCCM. I was wrong and I was now putting a lot more CO2 into the system.
10:15AM - ph = 6.2, so a drop of 1.2. This is good! The drop checker was yellow-green
1:45PM - pH = 6.0, so a drop of 1.4. This is getting into scary territory. I dropped it to 45%.
2:00PM - turned the CO2 off just to get out of the danger zone
3:00PM - turned it back on just for some stability and to give me a good reading tomorrow morning.
4:00PM - 
So I think I'm about as good as it can get unless I can get the flow through the reactor a wee bit higher, and that's not happening until I get the gate valve installed. The pearling was pretty intense at 4:20pm










On Monday I'll be able to measure the morning pH rise.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

oh great, my wifi timers are messing up. My big light was on last night at 10pm. And this morning I find my eheim is off. I'm especially not happy about that. I have no idea how long it has been off so I guess today I'm going to tear that down and stir stuff around in case the filter went anaerobic.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> oh great, my wifi timers are messing up. My big light was on last night at 10pm. And this morning I find my eheim is off. I'm especially not happy about that. I have no idea how long it has been off so I guess today I'm going to tear that down and stir stuff around in case the filter went anaerobic.


Well, that's a real kick in the groin! I'd not worry about it too much as the filter could not have been off too, too long. Quick water change and filter cleaning and you'll be ready to roll!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Well, that's a real kick in the groin! I'd not worry about it too much as the filter could not have been off too, too long. Quick water change and filter cleaning and you'll be ready to roll!


Filter service is done! It turns out that that's been on my list for awhile. Man, I bought one in 2013 and another one for Susan around that time. So there's a decent chance I've never serviced the impeller since then. No wonder it was noisy. It did a thorough cleaning of all the mechanical parts and the top two baskets. I just rinsed the bottom two baskets in filter water. My bacteria may be dead but at least I know it is not anaerobic.

pH was 6.0, so a drop of 1.4. The big rainbow fish was looking stressed so I've turned off CO2 for the day. The eheim's surface agitation must really help with the CO2 outgassing, which is as expected.

Off to do water changes...


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

2013 and you've never fully serviced them?!? Holy moly man! I highly doubt you lost all your bacteria. You'll know, for sure, tonight or tomorrow as you'll start seeing the affects from a biological bloom in the tank. Like I said though, I'd be very surprised if you see one. 

I'm doing an oil change on one of the cars now and then working on my 90g. Water change, filter cleaning on FX6 (I have an FX6 and an FX4 which I alternate weekly cleanings on), trimming and dosing raw chemicals for the first time. Starting to get interesting! 

Oh, I don't necessarily recommend doing an oil change BEFORE working on an aquarium. Lol


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> 2013 and you've never fully serviced them?!?


Oh, I service the media periodically, anywhere from 2 months to 6 months. I was talking about the impeller only. That's never been cleaned.



ReeferRusso said:


> I'm doing an oil change on one of the cars now and then working on my 90g. Water change, filter cleaning on FX6 (I have an FX6 and an FX4 which I alternate weekly cleanings on), trimming and dosing raw chemicals for the first time. Starting to get interesting!


What were you dosing before, oh wait, I should just head on over to your log.



ReeferRusso said:


> Oh, I don't necessarily recommend doing an oil change BEFORE working on an aquarium. Lol


Just be sure to use the correct weight in the tank. I'd reccomend a 5w20 since it is winter. :- )


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Good luck finding my journal. Let me know how your search goes! (Hint; I have not started one. The reason for this a lengthier than I care to type out right now. However, there is good reason!)

And you're close...


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@ReeferRusso , I suspect @NotThePainter 's secret to long impeller maintenance interval is the use of a similar Full Synthetic Motor Oil. Keeps the impeller shaft very slippery with the Intelligent Molecules Cling to Protect additive. I am guessing 50,000 rotation interval is probably correct for the impeller...


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> @ReeferRusso , I suspect @NotThePainter 's secret to long impeller maintenance interval is the use of a similar Full Synthetic Motor Oil. Keeps the impeller shaft very slippery with the Intelligent Molecules Cling to Protect additive. I am guessing 50,000 rotation interval is probably correct for the impeller...


Love it, Linn. (Hope I have the spelling right.)

Ohhhhh the places I could go with this but I'll stop myself... this time!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

To cling and protect...


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> Love it, Linn. (Hope I have the spelling right.)
> 
> Ohhhhh the places I could go with this but I'll stop myself... this time!


Spelling is correct  
Probably best you stopped - would not want to add to the Short Lived tread LOL


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So here's what I saw this morning when the Eheim wasn't running.










You can see several plants pearling but the O2 is going straight up and collecting on the surface. I thought the reactor wasn't running also, so I felt it and it was humming. I put my hand in the tank and couldn't feel it. So I covered the output with my hand and then I could feel it.

And when I did my water change I could see the feeble flow:










So I'm certainly going to buy that gate valve so I can tune it somewhere between too much and too little. It still ticks me off that the Jabao pump doesn't got slower than it does. Oh well, live and learn and it will work on a bigger tank so I guess I need a bigger tank.

I'd like to find a way to not break the siphons for the next time I service this. Something like those eheim disconnects would be nice, but it is going to have to be for 3/4" ID tubing. Time to go shopping!


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Not sure this will help, but, having a DIY - PVC setup does have some advantages. On this tank I use a spray bar. On occasions I need to drain the line without draining the tank. Remove the spray bar and add adapter...


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> So here's what I saw this morning when the Eheim wasn't running.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, so I'm confused now which, by the way, is not a difficult thing to do so don't go getting your chest all puffed out!  

What confuses me is that you say, "It still ticks me off that the Jabao pump doesn't got slower than it does." However, I look at that output into your tank and it's not even close to where it needs to be. Did I miss something? Are you running the reactor off a different pump or filter now? If so, my apologies as I either missed it or forgot. If this is the case, it's probably the latter. 

Here's a shot of my 90g... still learning, building and changing as it's a work in progress. I might even have some spare time to start a journal tomorrow in which case you'll have a better understanding of why my tank currently looks the way it does. We shall see.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> Ok, so I'm confused now which, by the way, is not a difficult thing to do so don't go getting your chest all puffed out!
> 
> What confuses me is that you say, "It still ticks me off that the Jabao pump doesn't got slower than it does." However, I look at that output into your tank and it's not even close to where it needs to be. Did I miss something? Are you running the reactor off a different pump or filter now? If so, my apologies as I either missed it or forgot. If this is the case, it's probably the latter.
> 
> ...


Well, the clock looks nice.....

LOL, just kidding. Looking forward to the "start" of your journal tomorrow.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Three quick things;
1.) Ignore the mess of wires in the corner. Those are plugs for the LEDs I had been using.
2.) Ignore the ugly looking return spray bars. Instead of using black PVC, I opted to paint the stuff I had laying around. I apparently did not sand it and put enough coats of Krylon on the PVC. Hence, the funkyness. 
3.) As @Immortal1 has mentioned, I agree that a spray bar return will yield you greater results.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Well, the clock looks nice.....
> 
> LOL, just kidding. Looking forward to the "start" of your journal tomorrow.


Why I oughta... 

Yes and it's one of those clocks that plays different tunes, including the Beatles, and there are parts that spin around too. 

And in case you might be wondering, that's a single piece of driftwood. Not sure what kind it is but it is rather heavy.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> Why I oughta...
> 
> Yes and it's one of those clocks that plays different tunes, including the Beatles, and there are parts that spin around too.
> 
> And in case you might be wondering, that's a single piece of driftwood. Not sure what kind it is but it is rather heavy.


That is a nice clock then !
As for the single piece of wood - heavy is good as it won't float. Curious, how heavy? I know Mopany wood is ridiculously heavy and rather expensive - just can't tell if thats what that is.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> What confuses me is that you say, "It still ticks me off that the Jabao pump doesn't got slower than it does." However, I look at that output into your tank and it's not even close to where it needs to be. Did I miss something?


No, you didn't miss anything. I'm still running the Jebao variable output pump. My problem with it is that I need a less powerful pump. If I turn it all the way down it is still too fast. So... I had to add the ball valve for back pressure and that valve is just too difficult to tune. So right now I have the ball valve close some random amount and the flow is too slow. If I try to adjust it, it sticks then jumps. So basically it is a guessing game. That's why I want to replace it with a gate valve, which I should have done in the first place.

I'm also considering getting some cam lever quick disconnects so I can service the reactor without breaking the siphon but the parts cost is rising. It is probably just easier to deal with some spillage and use the power head to prime it when I need to service it. After all, this won't require frequent servicing, maybe a cleaning every couple of years?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Now with the valve closed some, can't you turn the pump up some? You just needed the valve to lower your minimum, but you can still go up from there. You'll have more pressure in the reactor, but that's a good thing.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> Now with the valve closed some, can't you turn the pump up some? You just needed the valve to lower your minimum, but you can still go up from there. You'll have more pressure in the reactor, but that's a good thing.


The pump is maxed out now.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I think I'm confused. Your max with the ball valve partially closed is now lower than the low with it open?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I think I'm confused. Your max with the ball valve partially closed is now lower than the low with it open?


I just can't the sweet spot. Right now the ball valve is closed too much, but if open it, then I can't turn down the pump enough.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Hmmm. Maybe the problem is with trying to tune it with the valve. If you can just get it a little bit closed so you can then tune the reactor with pump speed, that might be easier than chasing your tail with the ball valve.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I'm surprised a brand new ball valve is so tight. Is it possible some cement got into the ball chamber when you plumbed it?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I'm only trying to coarse tune it, to just get it so that I can have the pump speed approximately in the middle. I guess I could have gotten cement in there, that would stink. I played with it some today, I think it is good. It is making some trickling sounds but it isn't too obnoxious.

I really want this done so I can get the CO2 dialed in, and then my ferts. Oh, I had to drop the CO2 % today, the drop checker was in the yellow in the afternoon. Hopefully I'm done with playing with knobs, I don't think so though. I really think that for fast CO2 uptake, I need to be able to see bubble in the reactor at least when the lights go on. If I'm not, the CO2 curve is too slow. I'll give it a few more days and then make a call on the gate valve or not. Love the reviews on amazon, half the people say they are great, half the people say they failed. Sigh... Life was easier when you just bought stuff and hoped it wasn't junk.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Monday morning.

1 hour pH is 6.6, so a drop of about 1.0. This isn't enough but it makes sense since I lowered the % yesterday since the drop checker was yellow in the afternoon. I'll see if it rises any more.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

2 hour pH is 6.4, that's probably it for the day, but I'll keep on watching it.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

2 day update. Yesterday my rotameter fell off. Yes, fell off! I had been using Scotch extreme double sided tape and based on the amount of tape it should have held about 4-5 pounds. I guess not. I didn't notice the fall but later when I went to check pH the value was still around 37% so I left it on the ground. I went to glue it up at the end of the day at was reading 20%. Arghhh... so basically any pH adjusting yesterday was wasted. I set it to about 37% again.

Today


1 hour drop - 1.0
2 hour drop - 1.0
5 hour drop - maybe 1.2
8 hour drop - maybe > 1.2? Its so hard to tell. Drop checker was yellow green
It is pretty clear I need to hit the CO2 more and the only way to do that is with more flow through the reactor. I don't start seeing bubbles dance around until mid afternoon and even then they are tiny. So I order the $30 gate valve from bulkreefsupply. I'm tired of going cheap and having to re-do it.

It should be here Friday, lets hope so. So the plan is to turn the pump to 50% so I have up and downward adjustability and then open the gate until it gurgles, then close it a smidge. This should be close to maximum flow and it will let me do fine adjustments with the pump controller. I'm also going to order a pH pen and not a junky one.

It is also time to get serious about my dying plants and the beard algae and other algae. Here's an anubias leaf that's about 2-3 days old:










You can also see the week old leaves in front of it. And here's some water sprite that's growing really well, this is also a day or two old.










and here's the same plant about 3-4 above it. This used to look like that, it's all going brown.










From googling around I'm guessing Phosphorus deficiency. I'm doing EI ferts and I double checked my math. I don't want to increase the NPK because my Nitrates are through the roof, 40 and 80 ppm look the same on the chart to me. But I do know it didn't budge after my weekly 50% change.

Fortunately my wife has some API Leaf Zone, which is Potash and Fe. I gave it a 50% weekly dose today and we'll see how things go. (I can't give it 100% because I'll probably empty the bottle!) If this helps I guess I need to start dosing N, P and K separately. I really wanted to avoid that. Oh well.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I'm really sure it is Phosphorus deficiency now. It's only been a day but the afternoon pearling was much more intense than anything I've seen recently. I hadn't touch the CO2 at all, I didn't even check the pH or look at the drop checker.










My wife gave me a full bottle of API Leaf Zone so I'll be dosing a lot of that and if it works out I'll buy some dry powder, you can get a pound for $9 or 5lbs for $16 online.

I still don't know why my nitrates are so high, I've doubled checked my macro EI dosing and it is correct, so I don't understand.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

how many ppm NO3 are you dosing per week?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> how many ppm NO3 are you dosing per week?


uhhhh. I might know? I'm using the Nilocg easy EI DIY liquids. It is an all in one macro bag and a micro bag. You mix it with 500ml of RO. Then...



> Add 5ml per 20 gallons of water for both the micro and macro, 3x per week on alternating days per the EI fertilizer dosing instructions.


The dosing bottle is marked in 5, 15 and 30ml increments. I figured I needed a "scant" 20ml for my 75 gallon tank. So I trying to get above the 15ml line, maybe a little more. In retrospect I should measure the depth of my gravel and compute the gallons in the tank. That would be more accurate.

According to the web page this should give me:

Micros:


B- 0.09ppm
Cu 0.01ppm
Fe 0.50 ppm
Mg 0.11 ppm
Mn 0.14 ppm
Mo 0.0038 ppm
Zn 0.03 ppm
dGH 0.02
Macros:


N- 7.5ppm
P- 1.3ppm
K- 4.27ppm
I'm lax about using their GH boost only because I did the math wrong and got my GH above 10. I'm bringing that down a bit. KH is 3-4.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

i'm still fairly new to the hobby, and i really try to limit myself to talking about what i feel i have a pretty good handle on (like building cerges reactors!)... and i'm definitely not going to claim to be any sort of expert on fertilization. with that qualification, i think those macro levels (x3) look good for a full week. the micro levels look more like 1x for a full week. in any case, i nothing obvious jumps out as a direct cause for such high nitrates. 

i haven't been following very closely, so i apologize if you've mentioned this, but have you tried getting fresh reagent for your nitrate test?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

They specifically wanted me doing it 3x a week. My guess is that doing it that way maintains the ppm that they specify. But, that said, when the stuff runs out I'm going to mix my own because, well, I'm a geek and that would be even more fun.

We have 2 separate API kits, one that expires at the end of the year and one that is brand new. We're also starting to see low levels of nitrate in the water, around 5-10ppm from our test kits and 1.25 from the town's testing. API says the town is measuring the wrong nitrate but the town disagrees. I'm really starting to think that the town is putting something in our water that is registering a false positive on the API kit. Especially since, if I have super high nitrates from dosing I should also have super high Potassium from dosing.

However, I've been dosing for a 75 gallon tank. I measure it today, subtracting off gravel and the thickness of the glass, it really only holds 58 gallons of water! Subtract a few gallons for the large hardscape, and add a few gallons for the canister. But I've certainly been over dosing by 30% to 40%! I've stopped the macros this week and will do a good nitrate test tomorrow.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Today was water change day, as usual. But I also installed the final version of the Cerges CO2 reactor.










It stopped gurgling about 2 hours after I ran it. The new gate valve makes all the difference in the world. I'm running full speed now and the flow is incredible, yet, when I turn the CO2 on tomorrow I'll be able to dial it all in!

I also got a Hanna pHep5 pH meter, so I'll be able to dial in the CO2 accurately. The instructions were nasty and the Hanna videos were better, but still, ours is running different software than in the videos. I'll contact Hanna and see what's up but I'm pretty sure I'm calibrated.

Resting pH is 7.81. 2 decimal places baby!

I also took a nitrate reading before the water change using a 10:1 dilution. That gave me about 50ppm nitrate. After the water change I was did it again, and the 10:1 was too difficult to read, less than 5 but how much? So I did a 5:1 dilution and got a solid 5 multiplied by 5 for 25ppm. So that's nice.

How did I get here? I think I was overdosing EI ferts. 75 gallon tank means a scant 20ml of the Nicocg DIY liquids. Bit is it 75? When I subtract off for the substrate and thickness of the glass, - 2 gallon for the driftwood and plus 2 gallons for the canister i get 58 gallons! Thats about a 30% change! I hadn't been dosing macros all week also, so this much be it.

On the good news side dosing extra Potassium really seems to be helping. I have no idea why my plants need Potassium and avoid the nitrate but I'll run with it.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Assuming your tank is like mine - I really have to laugh at the "75 gallon" statement. I think what they meant was the tank "displaces" 75 gallons if you put it in large tank. I.e, the exterior dimensions of the plastic frame give you 75 gallons. They (we?) really should let newbies know this. 
They as @NotThePainter has already figured out, once you measure the inside of the tank, subtract the hard scape and substrate you really end up with about 60 gallons of water. Maybe add another 3 gallons for your canister filter. 
Makes a real difference when you start calculating out ferts. Oh, and if you decide to only do 40% water changes.... well, that would explain why you hit 80ppm NO3 so quickly, LOL.
Anyway, enough blah blah, happy to see you were able to get the gate valve installed! Really thinking I will need to rebuild my reactor with a gate valve as well.
Tuning the CO2 system can be a lot of, er, fun....


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I had a frustrating time getting it running. I had hoped to set the pump to 50% then tune the gate valve to get zero gurgles. That didn't happen. Right now the pump is set to it's lowest setting, which was what I was at before and the gate valve is pretty closed. It is 15 quarter turns to open/shut it, and it is set around 3 turns from being closed. CO2 via the rotameter is at 37%.

I'll let it run for a bit and see if the gurgle goes away. It might, since the initial influx of CO2 has to be expelled. 5-10 minute pH drop was 0.23 so that's good. But.. that number is bogus since the initial conditions really varied. I'll get a good graph later this week.

Oh, and I have a leak! Just a drop every few minutes, hopefully it will calcify...


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> Makes a real difference when you start calculating out ferts. Oh, and if you decide to only do 40% water changes.... well, that would explain why you hit 80ppm NO3 so quickly, LOL.


I use a Rio2500 pump to get the water out and a python hose to fill it. So 40%-50%, that's about the same amount of time. I'm tempted to go to 60% or more until I get this stabilized.



Immortal1 said:


> Anyway, enough blah blah, happy to see you were able to get the gate valve installed! Really thinking I will need to rebuild my reactor with a gate valve as well.
> Tuning the CO2 system can be a lot of, er, fun....


You should! It is so much fun... :- )


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I'm not happy with the time to drop, 3 hours to drop 1ph. I can increase the % on the rotameter but I need to solve the gurgling issue first. Going slow isn't a bad idea.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

With all the headaches you've had with your reactor, I am believing what I have thought for a while now; it's that damn filter housing. 

Just to be sure and because I am too lazy to go into the "crituque" thread and look through the umpteen posts, you are running the housing so that the water enters through the open side of the housing and then exits (to the tank) through a tube/pipe plumbed into the middle hole? The tube/pipe should be about an inch and a half from the bottom of the housing. Also, another good idea is to have a sponge which is placed near to the bottom of the tube. Fortunately, when I had my system tore apart yesterday because I wanted to change the length of the return line on my reactor, I took the reactor apart to see if it was dirty and decided to take a couple pictures. They probably explain better than what I'm trying to type out. By the way, the reactor was not dirty, at all. 

Also, FWIW, I change 77% of the water on my weekly water changes. You can see how low the tank water is in the third picture. 

In closing, I'm fairly sure Linn ( @Immortal1 ) will have some type of wonderful comment about my TV or stereo or something! Lol


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

For what it's worth, my co2 kicks on four hours before the lights. I could ramp up quicker with higher co2 flow and a ph controller, but I feel like that's too risky in case the controller fails. Better to ramp up slowly over a longer period imo.

Regarding your gurgling... I just cured a 'glug glug' sound in my new reactor with some tubing inside the barb.









Seems like it was a byproduct of horizontal placement of the barb in my case. Might be worth a shot.

EDIT: co2 was building up inside the barb before being swept into the water. There are still 'normal' reactor sounds with this fix, just not the extra glug'. Not sure if that's what you've got or not.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> With all the headaches you've had with your reactor, I am believing what I have thought for a while now; it's that damn filter housing.
> 
> Just to be sure and because I am too lazy to go into the "crituque" thread and look through the umpteen posts, you are running the housing so that the water enters through the open side of the housing and then exits (to the tank) through a tube/pipe plumbed into the middle hole?


Yes, that's exactly what I have. I don't have the sponge though at the bottom.




ReeferRusso said:


> Also, FWIW, I change 77% of the water on my weekly water changes. You can see how low the tank water is in the third picture.


Wow, 77%!



EmotionalFescue said:


> For what it's worth, my co2 kicks on four hours before the lights.
> 
> Regarding your gurgling... I just cured a 'glug glug' sound in my new reactor with some tubing inside the barb.


How did you attach the tubing? Save me a trip to Home Depot to look... :- )




EmotionalFescue said:


> EDIT: co2 was building up inside the barb before being swept into the water. There are still 'normal' reactor sounds with this fix, just not the extra glug'. Not sure if that's what you've got or not.


Let me get a movie made and sent up.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I just heated it and jammed it in 










That's co2 tubing nested in nano python tubing.


----------



## n70me (May 8, 2017)

@*NotThePainter,

I have been reading your critique thread and i have also started **building** a cerges reactor somewhere around the sametime.








*


I have been modifying my cerges reactor as i wasn't getting good PH drop like you. I have read few posts saying- co2 entering top and side using the barb connector(quoting the pic just for reference) is not really an efficient way.

The flow by itself entering the cerges reactor is always restricted by the center pipe and is inefficient. Hence it was suggested to have the co2 injected directly into the reactor at the center. I drilled a hole and modified my reactor to inject co2 at around 3" down from the inlet(see the below pic for reference).










Also, notice the blue marks, they were earlier small walls obstructing the incoming flow ,they were all melted by a soldering iron to make the path clear.

PIC before melting:










After all these modifications done just today i get a way better PH drop. I still need to tune this though for 1 to 1.2.

Even without all these it may have worked for others. But wanted to share my experience though.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I just heated it and jammed it in
> 
> That's co2 tubing nested in nano python tubing.


that's really cool.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

This video shows the gurgle from from a dead start, no air trapped in the top






And this one shows the gurgle a few minutes later after I reduce the CO2 going into the tank. I don't like this, but I guess I can start the CO2 several hours in advance like @EmotionalFescue does.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

yeah, i think you're having the same issue i was - the co2 is building up a bit just inside the barb and entering the reactor as a big bubble. putting some tubing inside the barb as a sort of injector line might really help with that. now, a reactor of this design is always going to make _some_ noise, but it's more of a constant trickling sound. and, hey - you don't even have to cut pipe or cement any new fittings to try the tubing trick!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> yeah, i think you're having the same issue i was - the co2 is building up a bit just inside the barb and entering the reactor as a big bubble. putting some tubing inside the barb as a sort of injector line might really help with that. now, a reactor of this design is always going to make _some_ noise, but it's more of a constant trickling sound. and, hey - you don't even have to cut pipe or cement any new fittings to try the tubing trick!


So you're going to make me tweak it some more, right? Arghh.....


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

ReeferRusso said:


> With all the headaches you've had with your reactor, I am believing what I have thought for a while now; it's that damn filter housing.
> 
> Just to be sure and because I am too lazy to go into the "crituque" thread and look through the umpteen posts, you are running the housing so that the water enters through the open side of the housing and then exits (to the tank) through a tube/pipe plumbed into the middle hole? The tube/pipe should be about an inch and a half from the bottom of the housing. Also, another good idea is to have a sponge which is placed near to the bottom of the tube. Fortunately, when I had my system tore apart yesterday because I wanted to change the length of the return line on my reactor, I took the reactor apart to see if it was dirty and decided to take a couple pictures. They probably explain better than what I'm trying to type out. By the way, the reactor was not dirty, at all.
> 
> ...


Well, I could comment about the close proximity of the big speaker to the sensitive fish tank... LOL
Do you live in Texas? Big TV, big reactor, big tank.... LOL, just kidding. 
I do like the course sponge in the reactor, near the bottom. One more thing for the CO2 bubbles to fight thru before going up the draft tube in the middle. I guess my take on it when I built my reactor was - the sponge is just another thing to get dirty and I have to clean regularly. Clearly by one of my previous pics of the inside of my reactor I don't clean them often enough.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> So you're going to make me tweak it some more, right? Arghh.....


Not sure @EmotionalFescue idea of adding an internal extension will help much with sound. I your case, your CO2 comes in the side. As a bubble of gas enters, it goes up, then into the water stream. Pretty much ideal. The earlier picture N70ME posted had his CO2 line coming in from the top. Here, a decent bubble of gas could form before being drawn into the water stream.
Either way, its not a bad idea if you can get the co2 delivery further into the reactor. But, with that said, My seup just has the CO2 going into the side of a PVC fitting and I have little issue driving pH down 1 point within 2 hours.

Now, something I am doing that may be a little different than most...
My flow meter is set to deliver lets say enough CO2 to get a 1.5ph - 1.6ph drop given enough time. But, I have also learned turning an air stone on at the correct time, for a specific run time will burn off 0.1+ph. the air stone also adds more oxygen to the water column.

So, in a way, I'm holding the gas pedal to the floor and pumping the brakes to keep me at the correct speed limit - if that makes sense.
Still trying to formulate a solution to your gurgling...

Edit: NotThePainter, your PVC is horizontal where the CO2 enters. Mine is vertical. Does this alone make a significant difference with the sound of CO2 gurgling into the reactor?


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

The reactor I was having the sound issue was actually this one:









Didn't actually have a gurgle with top or bottom entry, just side. 

May not help at all, but I'm otherwise all out of ideas for OP's gurgle woes


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

EmotionalFescue said:


> The reactor I was having the sound issue was actually this one:
> View attachment 1027187
> 
> 
> ...


I do like your design - very compact. 
I think the only really comment I would have is the flexible tubing inside the reactor. Don't think it would be an issue - just have not seen it done that way before.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> I do like your design - very compact.
> I think the only really comment I would have is the flexible tubing inside the reactor. Don't think it would be an issue - just have not seen it done that way before.


I've settled on liking the pond tubing for the stand pipe. I anchor it in such a way that the bottom is opposite the side the infused water enters so as to clear the 'splash zone'. I'm also able to nestle the end down into the bottom 'corner' so I can push it really hard in terms of flow with no escapees and no need for sponge.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So I've sat next to it for 2 days now, I had turned the gate valve way down and the CO2. I've been turning it up a little bit. Right now it is just a soft trickle, not silent, but not too annoying. I'd say it was perfect except that the first design was silent. Oh well...

As for the CO2. CO2 goes on at 6AM, bright lights on at 8:20. At 5pm today I had a slight yellow tinge to the drop checker and a 1.13 pH drop. I don't think I want to go any lower, at least not until the plants are growing better and consuming more. Faster would be nice though, so I open the gate valve a smidge, twice, and then the noise was too much so I closed it by only a single smidge. I didn't get significant pearling until late afternoon today. We'll see if it starts earlier tomorrow. I'm not sure I want to take readings every 10 minutes starting at 6AM. LOL. Maybe I just measure it at lights on.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

As near as I can figure, it can only be either the CO2 injection point on the 90 elbow or something with the design of that housing. Since the only real difference in your system is the CO2 injection point, I'm beginning to think that's your whole problem. Might be worth a shot to replace that 90 with a standard 90 and place the injection point right next to the inlet on the housing. Would be pretty simple to accomplish too. On the bright side, you'll be able to give some outstanding suggestions to people building reactors. The Reactor Master!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Might be worth a shot to replace that 90 with a standard 90 and place the injection point right next to the inlet on the housing. Would be pretty simple to accomplish too.


I'm thinking I can run some silicone tubing from inside the barb to inside the reactor. Silicone since it would bend easier. Then again, I'm thinking about how to install that. It was spin as I turned the threaded barb to tighten it, maybe even coming off. And I might not find that out until I filled it and turned the pump on and watched my tubing shoot into the housing!

I really thinking of just drilling the housing and using silicone sealer. LOL. Hey, maybe that isn't that dumb of an idea, this would be just like @n70me project. The whole top of my housing rotates, with the wrench, and I'm not sure what kind of mechanism is in there. So maybe drilling into the clear housing?



ReeferRusso said:


> On the bright side, you'll be able to give some outstanding suggestions to people building reactors. The Reactor Master!


Like don't? LOL.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Just turn down the bubbles on the co2. The reason you are hearing noise is not all the co2 is being dissolved immediately. Thus that gas buildup is creating noise as water moves around it. If you turn down the flow of co2 you can get the same co2 concentration without the noise since you will still be dissolving co2 at the same actual rate without the buildup. Getting it perfect is finicky but doable.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Just turn down the bubbles on the co2. The reason you are hearing noise is not all the co2 is being dissolved immediately. Thus that gas buildup is creating noise as water moves around it. If you turn down the flow of co2 you can get the same co2 concentration without the noise since you will still be dissolving co2 at the same actual rate without the buildup.


That would be a lot easier. It does mean that the CO2 drop curve will be flatter but I can just turn the CO2 on earlier, so that's not a huge issue. 

The only thing that bothers me about this is that I get the noise within a few seconds of turning the CO2 on, so there isn't time for a bubble to form at the top. I do wonder if it is just a nice big bubble that forms, hence the desire to put a tube inside the barb to get a small bubble directly in the water stream.


----------



## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

How many bubbles per second are you pumping currently?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

minorhero said:


> How many bubbles per second are you pumping currently?


I'm not using a bubble counter. I running a rotameter so I actually have very fine control over the CO2. If I had an output gauge on it then I could even tell you how many SCCM I was pumping. But after reading your post above I did turn it down from 33% to 29%. I also close the back pressure valve some. Its pretty quiet now. I'll see what the 5pm pH drop is today.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> I'm not using a bubble counter. I running a rotameter so I actually have very fine control over the CO2. If I had an output gauge on it then I could even tell you how many SCCM I was pumping. But after reading your post above I did turn it down from 33% to 29%. I also close the back pressure valve some. Its pretty quiet now. I'll see what the 5pm pH drop is today.


This is a good plan! However, what will the solution be as your plant mass/count grows and your need for CO2 grows along with it? I'm telling ya, ditch that 90 injection fitting! I'll make you a deal, if your interested, if you change out the 90 injection elbow (and put the injection fitting horizontally right before the housing) and it doesn't work then I'll buy you a new housing to use so you can ditch that housing you are using now. What say you?


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Sorry... "if your interested" should be "if YOU'RE interested" above. Not sure why but I cannot edit my posts anymore.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> Sorry... "if your interested" should be "if YOU'RE interested"


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

ReeferRusso said:


> This is a good plan! However, what will the solution be as your plant mass/count grows and your need for CO2 grows along with it? I'm telling ya, ditch that 90 injection fitting! I'll make you a deal, if your interested, if you change out the 90 injection elbow (and put the injection fitting horizontally right before the housing) and it doesn't work then I'll buy you a new housing to use so you can ditch that housing you are using now. What say you?


Oh that's so nice!

And yes, my tank is under-planted now, and actually growing slower than I'd like. It's all easy low light stuff so I won't need huge CO2 but I do want to have that available. I mean, come on, after all this effort? It should work.

I think horizontal might be better, but fed from the bottom, I see so many fed from the top, feeding from the bottom should work better.

But I'm really liking the idea of feeding the CO2 right into the housing. So I headed to the big box store after work today. I picked up a second barb just to make my life easier. Then headed over to one of my favorite sections, the grey drawers full of specialty hardware. You know the place, metric stainless steel threaded rods, mirror rosettes, (Yes, they are in stock) and I found some nylon spacers that were too big to fit. But hey, nylon can we worked!










Sandpaper wasn't cutting it, neither was a rasp, but once I got that bad boy in my vice it couldn't resist the knife.



















I tried using a hand held drill bit, 1/4" and that work but it was so slow. So I tried my drill press, and it just spun it. And I couldn't find the right size, so I checked the CO2 tubing, 6mm. Arghh.... I drilled a 7/32nds hole in my work bench and the tubing wouldn't fit. Arghh... but why, I'll try it. I put the bit into my hand held drill and the nylon in the vise and cranked it down so it wouldn't spin. It cuts the nylon really quickly. But even though the hole is right, I was able to jam the CO2 tube in.










I'll install it this weekend, it is about an hour so of messing about, draining lines etc and I need my wife to help. I do think I should run the CO2 right into the housing, but its so stiff I'm not sure it can make all the bends. We'll see.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I got a couple of these 1/4" OD tubing push connect bulkheads from US plastics ages ago but never used them...










The plan was to mount it in the top of the housing, but it wouldn't fit in the top of the 2.5" version I had.

I'm actually in the process of switching back to a 20x2.5 from a 10x4.5 in my 68g tank because I need more room in the cabinet. So, I'll have a spare housing with a big top. I might try the bulkhead injection... I'll let you know how it goes!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Those are cool bulkheads! That would be an easy way to get a tube of CO2 right down inside the reactor. I'm still torn between trying to snake my CO2 tube past the barb fitting all the way into the reactor or just in a few inches. I'm concerned that when I tighten the threads on the barb fitting I'll tear out the CO2 tube and potentially not even know it, at least until I put the CO2 o and see it not working.


----------



## schooldazed (Mar 31, 2013)

just fwiw - EmotionalFescue's top of housing mounted idea using a stainless 1/4" tube bulkhead union/connector (<$10 on fleabay) - 










A short length of tubing inside the reactor then creates a built in "bubble counter"


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I had a pretty frustrating Saturday next to the fish tank. The CO2 tube inside the PVC went really well though. I could't get it to snake inside the housing, I would really have liked that. So that means I have no idea if it snaked towards the housing or down, which I guess doesn't really matter since it will be injecting a bubble into the water stream either way.

The frustrating part was that I found a small leak on the big 1" tube that was on the intake side. I probably jostled this on one of the many times I tried to get it running over the last few weeks and that side was never mechanically secure. It was sucking air. So I put a hose clamp on it and fool that I am, I over tightened it and crushed the tube. 










So now my small air leak with a big water leak! I tried to find some adaptors in my box of stuff but no luck. But I realized that the very top of the tube wasn't crushed. I heated some water to almost boiling, soaked the 1" tube in and pushed it almost all the way up. The cut wasn't straight, so, while the tube was on the black plastic, I trimmed it with my knife to make it really flat. I then put a hose clamp on it and tightened it, but not too much.

And it didn't leak!

I let it sit the rest of the day but I did I turn on the reactor. I had noise noise noise. So I turned the pump down, and close the gate valve, still noise. I was a bit dejected and put it aside until Sunday.

Bright and early I started catching the 21 cardinal tetras that were in the Q tank. That wasn't actually that bad. Got them acclimated over a few hours then sat down to get the CO2 working.

With the pump at minimum and the gate valve mostly closed, I was hearing a trickle of water. It wasn't silent but at least it wasn't the nasty gurgle. I ran the pH test now to find my drop.



















That did not make me happy. The 1 hour pH drop was only 0.58! 2 hour only 0.79. And worse, the drop kept on growing!

So I made a few changes at the end of the day today. I took the rotameter and turned it from 30% to 40%. This should put more CO2 into the tank, but the noise increased drastically. I also closed the gate valve a lot. I was getting lot of bubble making it up through the lift tube in the housing and out into the tank. I hate the look of bubble in the tank, ok, I don't mind pearling, but that's different! This also really decreased the noise. So we'll see what tomorrow brings.

So now I have very few bubbles coming up but I'm still worried about too much CO2 in the tank long term, so I adjust the spray bar for more agitation. (I think I bumped it when messing about with the tubes.)

So I'll see what tomorrow brings.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Oh, but let's stopping talking about gear and talk about fish and plants!










The middle crypts have lots of new growth, all very tiny. The white rocks are used to protect them from the Synodontus which are really hard on the gravel. I'm pretty sure I'll never get a carpet going in this tank.

I lost of the swords in the right rear, but the others are doing much better. I dropped Thrive capsules all over the tank this weekend to help them.

But the big news is that the right hand crypts, the bronze ones, have started new growth. This is huge, the first time I've seen it.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I turn the CO2 up to 40% on the rotameter, I only saw a slightly steep drop in the curve.










It is interesting that it level out at around the same drop.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> I turn the CO2 up to 40% on the rotameter, I only saw a slightly steep drop in the curve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In some ways, I am not surprised about your readings leveling off. In my experience, it takes exponentially more CO2 gas to continually drive the CO2 level (pH value) lower. 
As an example, you likely will find 50% on the rotometer may not get you to the 6.0pH number. It might. What it will do is steepen your curve (a good thing).
Now that you have the above curve, lets assume staying just above your 6.1875 line is your goal. Your last green dot is technically below your goal. Here is where adding an a big air stone to the tank is helpful. 
At the 300 (minutes?) mark you turn on the air stone for say ten minutes - this is the only change you make. It should be enough to push that last green dot up to the same level as the previous green dot.
In other words, you add more CO2 than you want (gas pedal all the way to the floor), and occasionally use the brake pedal (air stone) to keep you speed (pH level) where you want it.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> In some ways, I am not surprised about your readings leveling off. In my experience, it takes exponentially more CO2 gas to continually drive the CO2 level (pH value) lower.
> As an example, you likely will find 50% on the rotometer may not get you to the 6.0pH number. It might. What it will do is steepen your curve (a good thing).


That's actually a good thing. I turned it up to 50% and the end of the day today and will get data tomorrow.



Immortal1 said:


> Now that you have the above curve, lets assume staying just above your 6.1875 line is your goal. Your last green dot is technically below your goal.


The 6.19 dot, but yeah, your point is taken. This, at least initially, will be an easy plants tank, so not pushing the CO2 is a goal. I should have included the extra, useless, data from that same day.










It actually did level off, even rise some, but that's probably just experimental error.



Immortal1 said:


> Here is where adding an a big air stone to the tank is helpful.
> At the 300 (minutes?) mark you turn on the air stone for say ten minutes - this is the only change you make. It should be enough to push that last green dot up to the same level as the previous green dot.
> In other words, you add more CO2 than you want (gas pedal all the way to the floor), and occasionally use the brake pedal (air stone) to keep you speed (pH level) where you want it.


I'll keep that in mind as I have to push it more. I hate bubblers and I thought that was nasty when you first mentioned that, but only 10 minutes? I can do that.

Thanks for your continued input, all of you actually.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

50% was a bit too much. The CO2 goes on at 6AM, the first light ramps up from 0 to 100% from 8:00 to 8:30 and at 8:30 the bright light goes on.

At 8:30 I could see a lot of bubbles in the tank, a lot of CO2 bubbles. I checked on the reactor and many bubbles were escaping. I will need to slow this down, but I have data to collect.










I stopped the test at 12:15 because I had to head out to get my vaccine! I thought the levels could still be dropping and didn't want to risk it.

Tomorrow I'll run it at 45% with the same flow rate. Once I get that data I'll see about slowing it down some. I think I'd like to really close the gate valve a lot and increase the pump, that way I'll have fine and repeatable control over the flow. The only problem with this method is that the pump starts to make noise once it is really choked. Not much, just a whine, but I'm sitting right next to it.


----------



## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

That quick drop in pH is what you're looking for. I wonder if you could use your timer to do 50% flow rate for the first 2 hours, then 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off for the rest of the photoperiod? That's kind of what automated pH controllers do, just flick on and off as needed.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> 50% was a bit too much. The CO2 goes on at 6AM, the first light ramps up from 0 to 100% from 8:00 to 8:30 and at 8:30 the bright light goes on.
> 
> At 8:30 I could see a lot of bubbles in the tank, a lot of CO2 bubbles. I checked on the reactor and many bubbles were escaping. I will need to slow this down, but I have data to collect.
> 
> ...


The best part about data like that - you know exactly what can be done, and pretty much were you need to go.
With the rotometer, and a consistent regulator pressure, you can re-create this exact data at any time (like daily).
Now, looking at your 50% result, clearly in 2 hours you can drop your pH level quickly. Would be interesting to see what would happen if you turned on a bigger air stone from 240 to 250 minute. If your 270 minute reading stayed the same or went up a little, that would prove the method works. Alternately, if you had a pH controller, it would do basically the same thing - hold your pH at a certain level.
Now your getting a better idea on how to quickly drop your pH, AND not stress your fish


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

gjcarew said:


> That quick drop in pH is what you're looking for. I wonder if you could use your timer to do 50% flow rate for the first 2 hours, then 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off for the rest of the photoperiod? That's kind of what automated pH controllers do, just flick on and off as needed.


What you are stating is basically what a $200 pH controller does - just for $20 instead  Of course, it does require a little bit of extra effort.


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I’ll relate my experience, as it is similar to what @Immortal1 is describing. I run my CO2 24/7. Intuitively, you would think that I would have a high CO2 level when lights were out and, possibly, dangerous levels. However, rather than using an air stone, I use an inexpensive skimmer. This accomplishes two things:

1) It maximizes O2
2) It stabilizes CO2.

Regarding O2, and using a Salifert O2 test kit, I can read a 30% drop in O2 about 2 hours after turning the skimmer off. Regarding CO2, I can read a .5-.6 absolute drop in pH about 4 hours after turning the skimmer off, indicating a CO2 build-up. With the skimmer employed, my CO2 and O2 is rock-steady 24/7. The benefit is that I can now maintain a stable CO2 level, day and night and, I believe, this CO2 consistency is important to both fish and plants. Controlling pH levels, in my case for nutrient uptake optimiztion, is now easy with the simple use of carbonates or acids.


----------



## n70me (May 8, 2017)

*@Immortal1 What is the effect of the room temperature on the flow meter output?*


Does a flow meter like dwyer(or any) at 45 cc/min and 25 degree centigrade and other at say 35 degree centigrade output same amount of co2.

We do a lot of comparison across tanks in various regions/countries. Interested to know if you have any inputs on the temperature factor.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

n70me said:


> *@Immortal1 What is the effect of the room temperature on the flow meter output?*
> 
> 
> Does a flow meter like dwyer(or any) at 45 cc/min and 25 degree centigrade and other at say 35 degree centigrade output same amount of co2.
> ...


Going out on a limb here - no they would not be the same. I say this as I would "assume" warmer gas would be less dense.
0 centigrade gas would (should?) be significantly denser than the same gas at 35 centigrade. Now, the real question would be is CO2 gas noticeably at 35 vs 25 centigrade? I am not sure. Maybe a good question for @Bettatail


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I guess what I'm going for a simpler system, until I get a pH controller of course, but there are already plenty of "knobs" to tune, adding air stones or skimmers on timers would just really complicate things more. I get what you're saying, but right now, since I'm running easy plants, the complexity isn't worth it. I'd like a system that is bulletproof.

I ran the 45% numbers yesterday, here's the chart. It is hard to see some of the yellow dots since they are under other dots.










The data is mostly as expected, 45% was between 50% and 40%. This wasn't a big surprise. Here's the chart without the other data points.










What I don't like is the extreme amount of bubbles that are making it into the tank. 






My next step is to try and correct that. The only way is by reducing the flow. The plan now, and probably over the next few days, is to choke the gate valve, aka back pressure valve, a lot and increase the pump speed. I'm doing this because I have fine, and repeatable, control over the pump speed, from 30-100, which is 50% to 100% output. I should be able to find the maximum flow through the reactor without bubble escaping.

I'm a bit disappointed in this, I wanted the reactor's pump to contribute to the overflow in the aquarium. That's just not going to happen without bubbles. When we get the huge tank, which is many years away, I'll get a larger diameter housing, taller housing, or chain housings together. I actually have the room for a chain now but I'll resist until I have to.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

gjcarew said:


> That quick drop in pH is what you're looking for.


But it isn't quick, that's one of the problems. The x-axis is in minutes, so it taking me about *4 hours* to get to a good level. Right now the plan is to just turn the CO2 on sooner, but that's not ideal.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Hmmm. It's taking you six hours to get a 1 point drop and it requires so much reactor flow that you're getting bubbles in the tank... Something is not right here.

Sorry this has been such a struggle. Co2 should be fun!


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Bubbles in the tank is telling me less flow (volume) thru the reactor.
4 hours for a 1 pH drop kinda confirms the above - the co2 does not have enough time to dissolve within the reactor before it is pushed out into the tank.
Your comment about closing the back pressure valve a little more, and maybe bumping up the pump speed to add more pressure within the reactor are all good steps.
I like your 45% chart - the curve is looking like you have fine tuned the gas flow to the correct amount. Not it's just a matter of getting that flow to dissolve into the water faster


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Yeah, I'm at wit's end here. I need to slow the flow down but I'm almost at the minimum. I tried closing the gate valve and it was pretty close to being shut already.

Do I just have too powerful a pump? On thing that is interesting is that the bubbles in the housing are all tiny. Big ones would float up more, but of course, then they would dissolve, become small, and enter the tank. I really don't know what the next step is. I'm tempted to just say F - it and leave it as is and just turn it on 4-5 hours before lights on. I need to work on consistent CO2 and then my ferts to kill the algae.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

you could always install a bypass! i kid i kid (mostly).

it's good that you're hitting an equilibrium point around your target. you can always just turn the co2 on pretty early. that's what i do as well, just with an equilibrium drop of 1.3 instead of 1.0. it's a nice, steady-eddie approach, because you can set your flow consistently with your flow meter and then you just have to maintain consistent surface agitation and/or skimming. no risk of controller failure etc. so, that's fine, but you shouldn't have to have bubbles. so, it seems like you either have to slow down your flow or so something else like put a mechanical bubble catcher in your reactor, like a coarse sponge. i have tried that and am not a fan because it just gunks up so fast. the nice thing about a cerges reactor is that it has the potential to be maintenance free.

can you possibly replace your stand pipe? that built-in bypass in your housing makes it so you can easily remove the housing body, right? you could replace it with some tubing and get the opening much closer to the bottom of the housing body. that should help with the bubble escapees somewhat. if not then, yeah, just down to flow reduction... 

i think i might have lost the thread a bit in terms of where you're at with pump output, but looking back to the previous page, i think your pump's already at minimum. if the pump's on minimum and you really can't close the gate anymore without it being closed all the way, sounds like you might be stuck.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

A bypass? LOL, that would get me a quieter pump with lower flow. LOL. I'll remember that when I build out the huge tank.

The variable pump is already at the minimum.

I could replace the stand pipe and I probably should next time I completely disassemble everything.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So here's what I don't understand.

I've left two samples out to out gas all their CO2. I forget how long, but probably 1 1/2 days and 2 1/2 days, or maybe even longer.

They both read about 7.9 now, which implies that my drop is about 1.7. That's crazy? Why aren't the fish dead? I know I didn't put the GH booster in last Saturday (water change day). I'll measure KH and GH right now before I change the water.

UPDATE

KH = 4, GH = 5, in both the tank sample and the "old" sample.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

Oh interesting. I realize now I was being stupid earlier looking at your graph thinking that was a 1pt drop. That wasn't starting from degassed! Derp.

Still 1.7 seems very high. But I've gone as high as 1.5 with lots of surface agitation and a sump and without any signs of fish distress. 

Your descriptions make a lot more sense in the context of a 1.5+ drop. You can turn your co2 down, get fewer bubbles, and hit a good drop by lights on starting 3-4hrs before they turn on.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I had thought I had de-gassed my sample enough, it was more than 24 hours, that's where I got the 7.28 number. But I read a few days ago that you need 48 hours for a full outgassing.

I will turn the CO2 down some, that's for certain.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

I follow degassing for 72 hours without air stone and 24 hours with air stone. 

As for the drop in pH: this can become confusing especially if you're not calculating CO2 ppm. To further complicate the matter, it's recommended that a rule of thumb is about 30ppm of CO2.However, there are quite a few elements this number does not take into account such as surface agitation, plant number, mass and uptake, lighting intensity and if one is running a bubbler to name a few. A good example of running a level most would believe to be way over the lethal amount of CO2 is @Greggz 120g tank. If memory serves me correctly, he runs at 95ppm of CO2.

In closing, I will shout it this time, DITCH THAT FILTER HOUSING!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

And all I need to calculate CO2 ppm is a pressure gauge on the output side of the rotameter, right?

I'm not seeing you issue with the housing, sure, it was a pain that I had to run the airline from inside the barb, but once I did that the housing seems to be fine.

Oh, and I measured GPH of my reactor yesterday during the 50% water change, 60GPH. LOL, I have no idea if that's high or low, but given that the Eheim is, I think, 325GPH, published, not measured, I think my system is actually having real flow benefits. Sure, I'd like more, but I thought it would be way less than that.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I missed that the tube inside the barb trick worked to make it quieter. That's great!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I missed that the tube inside the barb trick worked to make it quieter. That's great!


OH yes, it is a constant tiny trickle now which one can learn to ignore, not a GLURP, pause, GLURP etc...


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

NotThePainter said:


> And all I need to calculate CO2 ppm is a pressure gauge on the output side of the rotameter, right?


I suppose a pressure gauge on the output side of your rotameter would help but, until then, here is a calculator you can use to get to different levels of ppm in your tank. 






Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium CO2 Calculator


Planted Aquarium CO2 Calculator



rotalabutterfly.com


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So that calculator is telling me I need to drop to pH 6.6 to get 30ppm and I'm going way lower than that. I don't get it. Why is my drop so huge and the fish aren't dying?

But anyways, over the last few days I've been closing the gate valve more and turning the CO2 down. I'm still getting into the yellow by mid afternoon but the numbers are looking better. We'll see what tomorrow brings. 

The pearling is still there but not as intense as before, which makes since since there is less CO2.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

The way I understand it is that the co2 and o2 saturation isn't a zero-sum game. You can have high levels of both, and having high o2 saturation allows you to push the co2 farther without harm to the fish. 

You get both high through high gas exchange (which makes it harder to reach high levels of co2) and a high co2 infusion rate. So, people may report having problems with their fish with lower co2 saturation than you have because they got there the easy way with low gas exchange and low o2.



Spoiler



But I'm no expert


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> So, people may report having problems with their fish with lower co2 saturation than you have because they got there the easy way with low gas exchange and low o2.


That makes sense, thanks. For my easy plants I don't see a need to go beyond 30ppm so I'm going to aim for that, just to keep things easier.


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> That makes sense, thanks. For my easy plants I don't see a need to go beyond 30ppm so I'm going to aim for that, just to keep things easier.


Interesting bit of information - according to Rotalabutterfly, if my dKH is 1, and I drop the pH to 5.5 (which I do every day), I would have over 70ppm CO2. 
Not sure their calculations take enough into account because clearly my fish are all alive. Suppose as EmotionalFescu states - I probably have higher than average gasious exchange.


----------



## ReeferRusso (Dec 29, 2018)

Immortal1 said:


> Interesting bit of information - according to Rotalabutterfly, if my dKH is 1, and I drop the pH to 5.5 (which I do every day), I would have over 70ppm CO2.
> Not sure their calculations take enough into account because clearly my fish are all alive. Suppose as EmotionalFescu states - I probably have higher than average gasious exchange.


So, what you're saying is that you're extra gassy! 

Without using a method for measuring CO2 in our tanks with what are usually expensive devices, it's pretty tough to calculate out because of so many different variables. As I mentioned previously, according to the calculator @Greggz is running 95ppm which, of course, should easily kill any fish.


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ReeferRusso said:


> So, what you're saying is that you're extra gassy!
> 
> Without using a method for measuring CO2 in our tanks with what are usually expensive devices, it's pretty tough to calculate out because of so many different variables. As I mentioned previously, according to the calculator @Greggz is running 95ppm which, of course, should easily kill any fish.


Yes I learned long ago to toss out the charts. As you said, too many variables for us to calculate any absolute value.

Most of the best tanks that I follow drop pH from 1.2 to 1.5 every day. Livestock are long lived and healthy. Charts would say otherwise.

And dialing in CO2 is critical. Getting it right has much more impact than any dosing change ever could.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I have a tank sample out-gassing now, I'll check it in a few days. My 2pm pH was 6.34, and 3:30 and 5pm were 6.29 so I'm pretty sure my current CO2% and back pressure setting are good to go. The drop checker is just starting to turn yellow and the fish are fine.

I'll get some better data tomorrow and then just adjust my start time for the CO2 after that.

Next stop is getting rid of the algae!


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

I was reading up on the co2/o2 relationship in aquariums and came across this article: Article - CO2 Q&A - The science behind

There's loads of seemingly good info in here, though having found it on the internet, I can't verify its accuracy. This bit stood out and is relevant to the discussion above:



> But, in general terms, favoring a good oxygenation of water is good for the aquarium, when using the traditional methods. However, when CO2 levels are increasing, oxygenating water does not solve the issue. As explained, Fig. 12 shows that oxygen uptake happens when oxygen is available and pH is at the right values. If the water has a high concentration of CO2, the regulation of the pH in blood becomes a problem, which diminishes the capability of the aquatic animals to oxidize their hemoglobin with oxygen. In other words, oxygen availability is good, but its use by the hemoglobin is controlled by the capability of the animals to remove CO2 from their blood. If this cannot happen, breathing process is then blocked and animals suffocate, does not matter at all the amount of oxygen in water.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> I was reading up on the co2/o2 relationship in aquariums and came across this article: Article - CO2 Q&A - The science behind


Wow, what an in depth article! I would be good to put that elsewhere on this site to get a more generalized discussion on it, not just for the followers of this thread. And man, it has been a very long time since I've heard some of those words, stoma, more than 45 years since high school biology!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

So about the tank today, I did the tedious job of collecting a lot of data. The CO% is around 30%, maybe a hair under, pump is as slow as it can go, and the gate valve is cranked pretty far closed, but of course I can't measure that.










And assuming my starting pH is 7.85 I can also just show the drop, which is more useful.










So I'm seeing a drop of 1.2 at the 2 hour mark, and 1.3 at the 3 hour mark. I my small light starts at 8, ramping up to 100% at 8:30 and my big light goes on full at 8:30. CO2 solenoid had been going on at 6AM, I just changed that to 5:00AM, so I should have a pH drop of a bit more than 1.3 when the lights go full on.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> So about the tank today, I did the tedious job of collecting a lot of data. The CO% is around 30%, maybe a hair under, pump is as slow as it can go, and the gate valve is cranked pretty far closed, but of course I can't measure that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is making more sense... i see a 1pt drop in about 40-45mins and 1.3 in 4hrs. but i either have the co2 lower or the gas exchange higher such that i top out at 1.4 and don't hit that until the co2's been running for 10hrs or so. my co2 also kicks on at 5am with lights ramping from 8:50-9.

what's the bubbles-in-the-tank situation these days?


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> what's the bubbles-in-the-tank situation these days?


Oh yeah, that's the important part! Over the last few days I've been tuning it so the bubbles were gone and the drop checker stayed out of the yellow. At 5:00pm today I still had yellow green in the drop checker and NO bubbles out of the reactor and even better, the reduced flow means NO NOISE. Ok, it isn't 100% quiet, but man, it's close to silent. So I'm happy.


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

NotThePainter said:


> Oh yeah, that's the important part! Over the last few days I've been tuning it so the bubbles were gone and the drop checker stayed out of the yellow. At 5:00pm today I still had yellow green in the drop checker and NO bubbles out of the reactor and even better, the reduced flow means NO NOISE. Ok, it isn't 100% quiet, but man, it's close to silent. So I'm happy.


awesome! fwiw, i ran a 1.3 drop with a drop checker in my sump and it was _yellow_ yellow all afternoon. with the flow meter, you can probably ditch the drop checker once you get everything 100% dialed. and it sounds like you're close!


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

I have an empty CO2 tank this morning. Huh? I started using the tank on January 24th, so that 2 months plus a week or so. That seems fast. Obviously I suspect a leak, but I've not touched any CO2 stuff in a long long time. Puzzled...


----------



## EmotionalFescue (Jun 24, 2020)

is it a 5lb bottle?

i go through a 10lb in 3-4 months on a tank that big.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

EmotionalFescue said:


> is it a 5lb bottle?
> 
> i go through a 10lb in 3-4 months on a tank that big.


oh that's good to know, I couldn't see how a leak could _just happen_! The new bottle went on easily and yes, I did a leak test. It only had a partial day yesterday, today will be the first full timed run.

Now I wish I had gotten a 10lb bottle!


----------



## n70me (May 8, 2017)

*@NotThePainter*

Appears like you have solved the mystery of achieving PH of 1 or 1.2 or beyond..
so what are the key changes that brought the result for you.
I went over your last few posts , below are my observations

1.appears like you have slowed down water flow to input?
2. reduced the co2? 
3. anything else?
3. do you use dwyer flow meter?if so at what level now?

overall, can you suggest what kind of fine tuning is needed to achieve a PH level of 1 or 1.2 or further down using a cerges reactor. 

Thanks a lot for making this thread.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

n70me said:


> 1.appears like you have slowed down water flow to input?
> 2. reduced the co2?
> 3. anything else?
> 3. do you use dwyer flow meter?if so at what level now?


Yes, the flow must be slow. This was my biggest mistake. I wanted high flow to give extra flow in the tank. You would need a bigger reactor to accommodate high flow.

CO2 was only reduced to get a decent drop. My drop checker just barely nudges the yellow. In the future I'd love to crank it up higher to have a steeper ramp and then use a pH Controller. Santa has been notified.

I bought a Dwyer but returned it, it seemed clunky compared to my 15 turn Matheson. Then again, I got really lucky with the Matheson. Right now it is set to 25% but that's meaningless, I have the chart for it but without a pressure gauge on the output I don't know what kind of CO2 SCCM I'm pumping. 

I can't imagine doing any CO2 work without a rotameter (or flow meter). I compare the Dwyer and the Matheson in this video.








n70me said:


> overall, can you suggest what kind of fine tuning is needed to achieve a PH level of 1 or 1.2 or further down using a cerges reactor.


You need a rotameter (or flow meter), you need patience, you need a high quality pH meter. You need a supportive group of people like _right here_ to get you through the "I want to put this all curbside right now" moments.

I'm currently getting about 1.6 pH drop, the drop checker isn't yellow and the fish are still alive. So the other thing you need is a willingness to disbelieve the readings and trust the tank. Why is my drop so high? I don't know, but clearly there is something specific about my tank that makes this not fatal. Something else is contributing to pH drop that isn't CO2 related.

Keep a scientific mind and an open mind.



n70me said:


> Thanks a lot for making this thread.


You're welcome, that's really nice to hear. I've learned so much from other here that I'm glad to have served as the coffee shop where we can chat and am glad that I was able to contribute.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

n70me said:


> *@n70me*
> 
> Thanks a lot for making this thread.


Oh wow, I just realized that we're in my 75 gallon tank thread, not the reactor thread. You might want to head over to the build link on the reactor and see how we all really embarked on a DIY journey!









Critique my Cerges Please


My regulator has been shipped and my water filter housing is already here, so it is time to design and build my Cerges reactor. I'm very familiar with the famous post 770 outlining all the parts but I've also been shown by @EmotionalFescue and @Immortal1 the reasons behind a bypass valve and a...




www.plantedtank.net


----------



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

NotThePainter said:


> Yes, the flow must be slow. This was my biggest mistake. I wanted high flow to give extra flow in the tank. You would need a bigger reactor to accommodate high flow.
> 
> CO2 was only reduced to get a decent drop. My drop checker just barely nudges the yellow. In the future I'd love to crank it up higher to have a steeper ramp and then use a pH Controller. Santa has been notified.
> 
> ...


FYI, the flow chart is based on the pressure of the gas as it flows past the bead in the glass tube of the flow meter. If your metering valve is on the output side of the flow meter, the glass tube is under the same pressure as what the regulator is set at (20psi on regulator is 20psi on the flow meter chart). Once the gas moves past the metering valve, it will expand and the pressure will reduce to match the water pressure in your reactor.


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The tube “inside the barb” does work to limit/eliminate gurgling. However, I’ve found that adding a line of holes along the length of that tube pulls CO2, from the gap, back through the tube for constant mixing and increased dissolution. In my case, it is a Grigg’s reactor. See the technique here: Reactor Gurgling

Regarding KH/pH tables, and calculators based upon these variables, to determine CO2, we shouldn’t say that they are useless. They are correct. What we should say is that we don’t have the ability to measure pH and KH accurately when the sensitivity of the measurements becomes critical.

If our pH is 5.5 and dKH is .3, CO2 is 30ppm. However, move that pH number by a decimal point or two and move the dKH by the same and you get double, or more, the nominal CO2. Our hobby-grade measurement tools can’t begin to come close to this type of accuracy, which is one of the reasons that we have to throw the charts and calculators away when we start dropping below 2 dKH and 6.5pH. At higher levels, these become more reliable because pH and KH readings are far more forgiving of the variability in our measurement tools.

To complicate this further, as we move toward, and below pH of about 6.5, bicarbonates (which allow us to measure KH,) start slowly changing into CO2. The rate is dependent upon a number of variables, but the point is that we don’t know where along the transition curve - back and forth - we happen to be when we take the measurement. Above pH ~6.5-7 and bicarbonates/carbonates are consistently dependable for KH and pH readings.

You can play with these numbers, yourselves, by using a calculator such as RotalaButterfly or Zorfox’.

So, we are all correct in saying that these calculators/tables are useless when we get into these pH/KH regions, but it is not because they are incorrect. I, too, don’t use them at these levels and prefer to use a dc (using 5 dKH reference solution) for guidance. The same type of problems, although to a lesser degree, can also affect attempts at using the pH “drop test”, but the ballpark estimate is more useful with the pH "drop test" than the charts at low levels of pH/KH.


----------



## n70me (May 8, 2017)

NotThePainter said:


> Yes, the flow must be slow. This was my biggest mistake. I wanted high flow to give extra flow in the tank. You would need a bigger reactor to accommodate high flow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your response. Nice comparison video and good to see you there.

I have been following this thread so closely to relate and solve many of my issues.

Here are my observations with my 20", 4.5" diameter,cerges reactor on a 120 * 60 * 50 CM tank, 95 G.


My PH before co2 kicks in starts around 6.8 to 6.9 as recorded by my PH meter.


*1. PH started at 6.92 at 18.59 at the red arrow:*









Every green drop represents a change in PH drop in the graph.









The reactor takes an initial 5 to 6 minutes to charge and then for about every 2 minutes i get a 0.04 drop. You see that at *19.13 the PH is at 6.68.

#2.









*



You can notice till *PH 6.44,19.27* it takes about 2 minutes to get a PH drop of every 0.04.

At 19.34 the size of drop reduces to 0.03 and the time increase to 4 to 5 minutes till a drop of 6.2.

Till here i dont see this as a problem.

*3. at 6.12:*














after reaching 6.12 or so the size of each drop further reduces 0.02 and the time further increases to 10 minutes as show by 20.31 (6.08 )and 20.41(6.06)

this is where my problem starts and i'm kind of stuck .

*what does it take to get a PH drop of say 6.08 to 6.06 in say 3-5 minutes,rightnow it take around 10 minutes or so.*

@
*Immortal1 *and all , any help on this is highly appreciated. My dwyer flow meter is currently at 60 for 95G(120 * 60* 50H CM). 

Right now i get a PH drop of around 0.8. I want it to reduce further to 1 to 1.2

sorry to hijack the thread. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

That's really cool data!

I think the difference between my situation and many other's is that you are all putting in a lot more CO2 than I am. My tank is still struggling, so the plants just aren't using that much. That's only my guess.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

Here's the tank today.










and for a per plant update:










a - these crypts are really taking off, I have many that are reaching the surface, which is what I want and I think all of them have new growth.

b - this is a temporary plant, just for nitrate uptake, I'm still struggling with the BBA. It is growing like crazy.

c - 2 anubias nana (?) here. Both are butting out new leaves and roots. The leaves get cover with algae, both a spot algae and the root get covered with BBA and the older leaves also succumb to BBA

d - There is a dark green crypt here, half a dozen of them. c. parva? They have melted back about 75% but there is new growth everywhere. The stones are to protect the new growth from the synodontus and that seems to be working. I'm seeing this all over the tank, presumable the synos uprooted them and the landed elsewhere and rooted.

e - You can see them but there is a lot of narrow leaf java fern on the back of the big driftwood. It seem to be doing well. I'm not sure why I put it there. I had it and I guess it will be a good place for the cherry barb fry to hide.

f - one apon ulvaceous bulb which is thriving. Many new leaves every week and one or two shoots to the surface which flower. I had just trimmed the dying leaves and the single shoot.

g - a separate piece of driftwood with anubias nana on it that is just covered in BBA. I cut off the BBA infested roots but I just don't think this piece will make it. (I'm going to start another thread on my algae issues in that forum.)

h - this is a really cool sword, light green with brown speckles. My wife wants it to throw off a sister so she can have one. It is growing, but slowly.

i - some random sword from petco which is doing nicely.

j - a reddish sword that isn't dying but growing very slowly. I used to know it's name.

k - a small patch of brown crypt, I also think it is parva, never melted but never grew. It is just finally starting to throw up new growth. Very slow over on this side.

l - salvinia, also for nitrate uptake. I pull out about 1 to 2 cups a week.

m - 2 dead swords, one was pretty cool.

Overall I'm pleased with plant growth and displeased with the algae.


----------



## n70me (May 8, 2017)

NotThePainter said:


> That's really cool data!
> 
> I think the difference between my situation and many other's is that you are all putting in a lot more CO2 than I am. My tank is still struggling, so the plants just aren't using that much. That's only my guess.


wood in your tank can also be one factor for the PH to fall. isnt it?

Yes, right now iam at 60 on my dwyer flow meter. Thinking if using sponge or any kind of media helps to reduce further in less time. Back pressure some how doesnt work for me at all.


----------



## NotThePainter (Dec 17, 2020)

n70me said:


> wood in your tank can also be one factor for the PH to fall. isnt it?


Yes, but it would be a steady drop. My drop is measured from tank water siting for a few days, that tank water that I measured would have already dropped from the tannins in the wood.


----------

