# I could use some advice on how to clean up my algae farm



## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

I have had a planted tank for about 20 years, but I wouldn't say I have 20 years of experience in the hobby... It feels like I have 1 year of experience 20 times. I had a few brief years of a nice-looking tank when I had the LFS starter-grade fluorescent hood that put out about one candlepower. Then, I "upgraded" my light and added CO2 and everything went to hell. I keep stepping down light output and photoperiod over the years. Nothing has cured the issue but lowering light has helped a bit.

I am sure that despite my best efforts I am making some fundamental errors, because I'm just overrun with BBA and even cyano sometimes. The only time I see clean leaves on my Java fern and bolbitis is when I prune the BBA-covered ones and reveal leaves that weren't in direct light. 

I'm hoping some kind readers can give me some advice on where I should focus my efforts because I am clearly doing something terribly wrong. Sincerely, thanks for any advice you can offer. 

Here's the setup I have today. I won't go into all the lighting variations I have had over the years, but I have more light available if it will help. (It didn't before!) 

*Hardware*

90 gal fresh water tank (24" light to substrate)
Substrate is Turface Pro (an inert fired clay product which allegedly has a high CEC)
Filtration is an API cannister
Lighting is 2x 55W 2G11 folded tubes (the tubes are very old)
Photoperiod 8 hours, but the tank gets a few hours of diffuse sulight from nearby windows

*Water & supplements*

Seattle-area tap water (SUPER soft, total hardness & alkalinity both approx 1 degree)
NO ferts in use
CO2 injected into filter during lighted time (drop checker shows green, a couple of powerheads move the water around, too)
Tank pH mid-day is 5.3 (tap pH is 7.9 but it has no buffering, and tank provides no buffering)
Water changes, glass scraping, some pruning every 3-4 weeks

*My goals*
Have a low-algae tank with any kind of happy beginner plants. I have given up on having a carpet of baby tears; one Java Fern that is more fern than BBA is all I want. 

*What I am willing to do*
Buy almost any kind of equipment, dose ferts, do math, do labor, ritual sacrifice

*What I am not willing to do*
Replace substrate (disruptive to fish), switch to RO, anything that risks the health of the fish any more than I already do by using CO2. In other words, I don't want to walk a tightrope, and I don't want to make every water change a giant project like a saltwater tank, _because I know I won't do it often enough_. Like Dirty Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations."

If you are still tuned in, *thanks again*. Really.


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## oscarlloydjohn (Dec 3, 2017)

I definitely think you need to dose fertilisers. Unhealthy plants can't outcompete algae. I think this is the source of your problem.

If you are interested, many people on this forum dose using the EI method. It is very cost effective and you can customise the dosing however you want. Otherwise you could use a commercial solution but it will be quite expensive in a 90gal.

I think you may also need to add some alkalinity and hardness. Plants need magnesium and calcium as well as other macros.

Hope this helps 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I would certaintly start with ritual sacrifice. It is 100% fish safe and was shown to be effective for something 97.8% of the time.

But seriously. @oscarlloydjohn pretty much summed it up. Some pictures of the tank and plants would not hurt either.

Step 1: bring your kH and gH to 3 - 5 ppm. Do it over a week or 2. The products to look into are Seachem Equilibrium, GH booster. Pick one.

Step 2: get a water testing kit, if you don't have it.. API Master Freshwater is ~ $25 + gH/kH is another $10. You want to test kH, gH, NO3, and maybe phosphates. The goal here is to find out if your plants have enough nutrients to grow (my bet is they dont). Based on the results, start feeding your plants. The easiest way is to use a pre-mixed fertilizer like Thrive, the cheapest is to get dry fertilizers and mix your own. All available at Aquarium Fertilizer | NilocG Aquatics

*The core principle of a planted tank:* grow healthy plants. Everything else will follow.

If, for whatever reasons, you can not get enough / appropriate plants, send me a PM.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

There is a member on the forum, I believe his forum name is SeattleAquarist. I would recommend you contact him. He lives in seatttle and strongly recommends a GH booster for tanks with soft water like yours. Boosting your tanks general hardness (GH) by 2 degrees with Sachem equilibrium by would be a good start. 

I would also start adding a fertilizer. Many people believe algae issues are caused by excessive nutrients in the water. The reality is that most algae issues are caused by not having enough nutrients in the water. You might want to go to nilocg.com and purchase a fertilizer. They sell a good all in one fertilizer called thrive that will work very well with Equilibrium. They also sell Estimative index fertilizer kits if you are interested in trying that.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks guys. It's encouraging to see a unified message here. 

I do have test kits of various sorts. I used a quickie cheapo test strip yesterday and my NO3 is roughly 20 PPM. I haven't tested hardness but I suspect it is near my tap water's 1 degree since my substrate should be neutral. I'll find out for sure though and work on increasing hardness. 

I actually have most of the chemicals on hand for a couple of fert regimes. I have done EI dosing and even Poor Mans Dupla Drops, if you remember that! I've sucked at this for a LONG time.  But everything is old and maybe not even labeled... maybe I still have some good macros on hand. Anyway, I will get whatever I have to get because I am on a mission now!
@Surf I know the member you speak of, he is part of my local aquarium club. Roy is very generous and knowledgeable. Sadly I can't make it to the meetings any more, but I still hang out on that mailing list. I'll ask him for some advice on raising hardness. 
@OVT I appreciate the offer of plants, but I can get by with what I have for now, and if I need new victims my LFS is well stocked. I'll hit you up if that changes. 

I'll post a current photo when the tank lights come on this afternoon. 

Thanks again, everyone. I'm feeling more optimistic.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Everyone,
@Cyano pm'd me and asked for help; I'm going to respond in his thread so others can chime in and or possibly use the suggestions I offer to deal with similar issues. @Surf is correct, I deal with soft water issues on a regular basis. I too have a tall tank, a 45 gallon tall (24") so I am well familiar with the issues tall tanks can present.

I've had aquariums for decades but just started planted tanks about 10 years ago. I did a lot of reading (thekrib.com) as well as the relatively new (at that time) aquaticplantcentral and theplantedtank forum and many of the articles by Amano. What I learned kind of boiled down to this......it's all about balance. Plants are pretty basic, they need light and nutrients to thrive but the trick is how much light and how much and what nutrients? When I increase one item I need to increase other items and if I decrease one item I need to decrease other items.
@Cyano stated his tank was fine with the 'standard' light fixture (likely T12 maybe T8) over his deep tank but then he upgraded to power compact (2X55 watt) and things went downhill....why? With low light the plants didn't need much in the way of nutrients, likely the fish waste combined with the minimal nutrients in our very soft NW water allowed things to grow fine although slowly. Now we add the power compact light, likely 2-3 times the light output of the original lights. More light means more nutrients are required but fish only poop so fast. Also the minimal mineral nutrients in our soft water were likely no longer adequate. The result, the tank was no longer in balance. Adding CO2 is fine if the limiting factor for growth is a lack of available carbon molecules but if other factors are limiting growth adding CO2 helps very little. Sometimes I explain it this way, with the low light is it sort of like riding a tricycle...very forgiving if I make a mistake but when I add high light and/or CO2 to a tank it is more like riding a Kawasaki Ninja ZX motorcycle where if I make a wrong move at high speed I eat asphalt.

First, let's deal with the light. Power compact lights are fine for growing plants, I use a 96 watt power compact light with an MIRO 4 reflector over my 24" tall tank and can achieve [email protected] at the substrate level. However, power compact lamps loose light intensity quickly, that same lamp only provides [email protected] at the substrate level after 12 months of use. My first recommendation is to replace the two 55 watt lamps. I usually mark the date I install a lamp on the socket end with a magic marker so I know when it is time to replace them....I never go over a year. Secondly 8 hours of light plus additional diffused sunlight is a lot of light. I suggest (#2) until the tank is balanced and growing properly reducing the light from the fixture to no more than four (4) hours - maybe in the evening when you can enjoy your tanks. I run the 96 watt on my 24" tall tank for a total of 4.5 hours and it is in a lower level of the house with minimal ambient light.

Turface Pro League is a fine calcined Montmorillonite clay substrate, although it may 'break down' over time (I find that mine is good for about 3-4 years). It has a high CEC (approx. [email protected]) so it 'absorbs' nutrients from the water column and makes them available to plants in the root zone. Do you know what model API canister filter you have? I run two 350 gph canister filters on my 75 gallon and sometimes I think I should add a powerhead as well. Your two powerheads are probably helping a lot in your tank. All I typically put in my canister filters are bio-balls and sponges, no charcoal. If I have issues with high nitrates and I suspect it is due to high bio-load (lots of fish) I also use Seachem Purigen in the canister to remove organics from the water.

+1 to the previous posts to get some water test kits. I use the API Freshwater Master Test Kit and API KH/GH Hardness Test Kit monthly and I would suggest starting with those. After you get those in and have taken your pH, dKH, and dGH readings along with ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate we can discuss specifics concerning your tank however the following is what I do for my tanks here in Seattle.

When Tom Barr visited our local aquarium club (Greater Seattle Aquarium Society / GSAS) in 2010 during the Q&A after his presentation I asked him about our soft water (typically <1.0 dKH; 1.0 - 2.0 dGH). He lives in the Sacramento area and has similar water. He said it doesn't worry too much about dKH as long as there is sufficient to avoid pH crash when using CO2 and he tries to target 4.0 dGH hardness in his tanks. He also said that even if the water is over 4.0 dGH naturally he would increase the hardness by 2.0 dGH just to insure there is sufficient calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), and potassium (K) available to the plants. At first I used Seachem Equilibrium to harden my water. It is a very good product and contains Ca, Mg, K, Mn, and Fe but when doing regular water changes with larger tanks it can become expensive. There are 'generic' GH Boosters offered by aquariumfertilizer.com, greenleafaquariums.com, and nilocg.com that are all based upon Tom Barr's original formula which is:



> By Volume:
> 1 Part K2SO4 (Potassium Sulfate)
> 2 Parts CaSO4 (Calcium Sulfate)
> 1 Part MgSO4 (Magnesium Sufate)


Regrettable they do not contain any manganese (Mn) and they tend to overdose potassium (K) (as does Equilbrium) which can effect the uptake of iron, manganese, and magnesium. Lately I have gone to mixing my own GH Booster and have been happy with the results.

For nutrients this is what I suggest you purchase:

1 lb potassium nitrate (KNO3) (online)
1 lb potassium sulfate (K2SO4) (online)
1/2 lb (mono) potassium phosphate (KH2PO4) (online)
1 jar Seachem Equilibrium (online or Aquarium Co-Op)
1 bottle Seachem Flourish Comprehensive ( (online or Aquarium Co-Op)

While waiting for your test kits and nutrients to arrive please do two (2) 50% water changes about a week apart to 're-set' your tank (siphon from the bottom to remove 'mulm'), pick up your new 55 watt lamps, clean your filter, clean your glass, and remove as much algae infested plant material as possible. Questions? Just ask! -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks Roy! I am sure I will have some more questions, need to take some time to digest all the great replies so far. 

With regard to the lights, I do have more options than just replacing the 2x55W lamps. 

I also have a Catalina 48" T5-HO fixture, which I think is 4x 54W lamps. Those lamps are also ancient, though, and surely need to be replaced. (_Ancient_... maybe 7-8 years? Yeah, no kidding.) This fixture has 2 pairs of individually switched lamps, so it's easy to run 2 or even just 1 lamp if needed. 

I'm also willing to upgrade to LED, if there's something decent for less than say $200. The tank is a long-term commitment so I don't mind spending something up front to get off the bulb replacement treadmill. In fact, I find the idea appealing, _if_ LED fixtures in that price range are any good. I haven't done any research on that front yet. 

Here are a couple of swamp photos. This is the tank's typical state, but it does look nice after cleaning and pruning.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Sorry, with the issues the website was having I lost track of this thread. In answer to your question about lights I am a strong fan of Fluval currently. The good PAR rating (light intensity), fully sealed with a waterproof rated per IP67, and strong three (3) year warranty are the main reasons I prefer this brand. The adjustable light spectrum (Fluval Plant Spectrum (aka 3.0) along with bluetooth app to control the spectrum (instead of a separate control unit) are also strong advantages. 

I would start with one (1) of the Fluval Plant Spectrum Bluetooth LED 48" - 60" units (item #14523) to start, which should give you approximately the same PAR as the 2X55 watt unit you are using currently (maybe better since the bulbs are old). Cory at Aquarium Co-op, which is near you, sells them locally or you can find them online as well. Ken's Fish is where I got mine; they still have them on sale (as of 7/16) for $158.09 after using discount code *fluval* with free shipping. Hope this helps! -Roy


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Lately I have gone to mixing my own GH Booster and have been happy with the results.


Roy, can I ask what is your recipe?


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

No worries @Seattle_Aquarist, this is an ongoing issue and it won't be fixed in a few posts. 

Thanks for the hardware recommendation, that looks like a very nice unit. I am inclined to upgrade and never handle a tube again! 

I'll follow up on this thread when I have some progress to report, or maybe more likely, a ferts question. But I think I have enough to go on for bit.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Glad to help! It is true that LED's use much less electricity than T5HO, PowerCompact, or other lighting (about 40% less) but the real savings is in not replacing the lamps/bulbs. I did a math for my 30 gallon long (36") that used 2X39 watt powercompact lamps and the payback on not having to purchase lamps every 12 months was about 2.5 years.....thereafter the savings just continued to pile up. Since you have CO2 and a deep (24") tank you may need a second fixture in the future but I have found that balancing out a tank with regards to nutrients is easier if I start at about 'medium' PAR (about 50-70 PAR) and adjust the nutrients and photoperiod before adding additional light.

BTW, GSAS has an Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter that members can check out for a week at no charge. When you think you are ready you may want to join the club and see what PAR you are actually working with....it does take out a lot of the guesswork.

Bump: Hi @Jeff5614

I am currently on my fourth (4th) version after starting 3 years ago. It gives me the Ca and Mg I need for my soft water but doesn't overdo the potassium (K) like most GH Boosters do.



> *Roy’s GH Booster Ver. 4.0*
> 
> Dose: 1 teaspoon / 8 gallons
> 
> ...


I source the CaSO4 and K2SO4 from Alpha Chemicals on Ebay. The MgSO4 (Epsom Salt) I pick up at the local drug store.

Hope this helps! -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@*Seattle_Aquarist*, I've found that the cheapest Epsom salts around are actually at Costco. They have the "Dr. Teal's" brand unscented, food grade stuff, and it is much cheaper per pound than anywhere else I have found. We go through a lot of it when making bath bombs, so I did the legwork to find the best deal. I was surprised!

That PAR meter looks nice, wow.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> For nutrients this is what I suggest you purchase:
> 
> 1 lb potassium nitrate (KNO3) (online)
> 1 lb potassium sulfate (K2SO4) (online)
> ...


I pulled out my old box of ferts and I think I have all the macros I need. The box also had Plantex CSM + B, and an old bottle labeled "Fish Trace." I remember buying the "Fish Trace" from a hydroponics store in Seattle way back in the day @*Seattle_Aquarist*, pretty sure someone in GSAS turned me on to it. I am pretty sure it was the micro nutrients in PMDD. But I don't know exactly what is in it, so it's probably not useful today.

Not pictured is a pound of gypsum that I have for brewing. 

Assuming I add the right macros...


Can I use homemade GH booster instead of Equilibrium?
Can I use the CSM+B in place of Flourish?

I do not mind buying the bottled stuff in the short term but would much prefer to mix ferts myself, that's half the fun. 

I do have the Fluval LED fixture on the way, so I'll be doing the water changes etc. Then I thought I would start with GH booster alone for a little while, see how my pH changes, then start macros/micros.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Suggest using some Metricide14 or seachem excel (weaker, so need to correct dose) to drop the BBA load regardless of ferts at this point..
https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-6710...pID=41U4PqPzEvL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch

Keep CO2 steady.. don't go futzing w/ it.. will always make matters worse in my mind..

Clean gravel.

There are numerous opinions on dosing and which "things" can't take gluteradehyde..

15ml every other day for a few days...(Met 14). 
Excel is weaker by ROUGHLY half, so double it.. OR x 1.73..26mL 
The difference is mostly academic really..
If you do some research you will see "my" dose is lower than many..


> I've found that plants and fish can take quite a large amount of glut with no ill effects.
> 
> Been dosing 28 ml per day of undiluted Metricide 14 in my 50gal tank for a number of months now. Tank is 9 months old and heavily planted with about 42 small fish, mainly neons and rasboras. It gets dosed twice a day just before the start of my two split photo periods. Along with daily EI dosing everything appears to be doing great.
> 
> The workable tank volume is only about 38 gal, so it works out to about 1.2ml of Excel strength glut per gallon of tank water. Occasionally I get a couple new fish or plants and they have had no problems with acclimating.


EXCEPTIONS (possibly): Vals, shrimp and Discus. 
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...arameters/205737-excel-vs-metricide-14-a.html


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks. I do have some Metricide on hand already, been using it for a long time for occasional BBA battles. I've seen no ill effects using about 80 mL in a 90 gal tank periodically but I am happy to rethink everything at this point.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Great, even if those nutrients are several years old they are still good unless they have gotten wet. We will use all of them with the possible exception of the one on the bottom left (sorry I can't read it). Seachem Equilibrium does have a few other nutrients than DIY GH Booster but if you want to mix your own booster the formula above works well for me with our soft water. I dose CSM+B but also Seachem Comprehensive...why? Because CSM+B only contains six micro-nutrients while Seachem Comprehensive contains twelve (12) micro-nutrients. I think you will really like your new light fixture. My oldest one (a Fluval 2.0) is a little over 2 years old and I have had absolutely no issues with it. 

We will discuss dosing when the new light has arrived and we have tank water test results for dKH and dGH. I suggest bringing the hardness up fairly quickly, two doses spread a few days apart targeting 4.0-5.0 dGH. The rest of the ferts we will start dosing at about 50% of recommended and see how the plants respond. I suggest getting some Seachem Comprehensive and if you don't have one an API Nitrate Test kit. -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist, both the leftmost bags are the same, monopotassium phosphate. One's just a different vendor with a blurry label. 

I'll go for homemade GH booster, pick up the Seachem Comprehensive, and find or buy a nitrate test. The plan sounds good. Thanks again Roy!


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## ML5280 (Jul 15, 2018)

Hey @Cyano

I also had an algal bloom in my aquarium because of my strong LED light. It was three kinds, a green and brown flat algae, and a 3-D moss like spot algae. I managed to completely eradicate it in literally two days. I followed this guide I found and I also made a post like this and took the advice of other planted tank owners. 

Post on Algae Control:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/26-planted-tank-faq/110422-methods-algae-control.html

That thread is amazing and it really works. 

What I did was make a 1:4 Glut solution with Flourish Excel. The reason why this works is that Flourish Excel is a carbon compound aimed at helping tanks that do not inject CO2. In high enough doses however it can be used as an algaecide. The reason for this is that Excel contains Glutaraldehyde (carbon compound for plants that can be taken up biologically). In large doses this can kill. Because the plants are much larger beings than the single celled algae, it will take far more of this to kill them. There are some plants however that ARE NOT WELCOMING TO THIS GLUT SOLUTION. Rotalas, mosses, and vals do not like to be hit with this solution. Most other plants (Crypts and Anubias(two that are prone to GSA) respond positively to this solution.)) should be ok but I would always proceed with caution. 

Prepare this solution and drain the tank. Put the solution in a spray bottle and spray everything except the plants you don't want to hit or ones you are unsure of. Let this solution sit for about 5-10 minutes and then refill the tank. Most algae will die in less than a day and will flake off into the filter or will be eaten by your clean up crew. I have three amanos and they went to town on it.

I did this in my ADA-60P 17 Gal. 

Worked like a charm for me. If nothing else works from the advice you received before I would give this a go.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks, a glut spray makes a lot of sense. I will keep this trick in mind!


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## ML5280 (Jul 15, 2018)

Cyano said:


> Thanks, a glut spray makes a lot of sense. I will keep this trick in mind!


Np! Hope everything works out!


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Cyano said:


> *Water & supplements*
> 
> Seattle-area tap water (SUPER soft, total hardness & alkalinity both approx 1 degree)
> *[*]NO ferts in use*
> ...


Yes some GH is need for plants to grow. GH of 6 with at least 3-5mg/L Mg and more Ca. However this alone will not get you to your goal. It's good that you have low light for now, it's bad you get sunlight hitting the tank. 
Light +CO2+no ferts-> plant problems and algae growth. You need to dose.
Water changes and general maintenance every 4 weeks -> accumulated organics + sunlight -> algae . Change water weekly and clean well, also the substrate, at least until you get rid of the algae. 

Looking at the photos you have low plant density/mass dominated by slow growers. Add some more vallisneria, elodea, hygrophila polysperma , floating plants. Lots of healthy growing plants means low algae. 



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I am currently on my fourth (4th) version after starting 3 years ago. It gives me the Ca and Mg I need for my soft water but doesn't overdo the potassium (K) like most GH Boosters do.
> 
> 
> > *Roy’s GH Booster Ver. 4.0*
> ...


Roy’s GH Booster Ver. 4.0 :icon_roll Really? At least in the past people were more imaginative/less self-focused about naming, eg PMDD, PPS., EI.

Let's not beat around the bush and say that the 3:1 CaS04*2H2O: MgSO4*7H2O ratio comes from NilocG from Barr's suggestion from Seachem. Same ratio, same chemicals. Yet, I don't see any attribution, just a new name: Roy. I see Barr mentioning GH Booster from 2007 (maybe earlier). A lot earlier than 3 years ago, in any case. We discussed about the Barr's GH Booster at lenght last year, here's Tom's input and the discussion : https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...4-barrs-gh-booster-dosage-2.html#post10037882

By the way, here's what PhD Tom Barr said about the name :"Barr's GH Booster" : 
"I do not like my name attached to such products, but being DIY and cheaper than dirt, I do not bug Greg too much about it." Yet others do it themselves, takes courage and modesty. 

Perhaps one should first learn what GH and °dGH stands for before labeling GH(General Hardness/Gesamthärte) mixes with one's name : 


Seattle_Aquarist said:


> *German Hardness* measures the divalent (+2) cations dissolved in a solution and although it is expressed in CaCO3 equivalent it does not mean it contains calcium although part of that 6.0 dGH likely is calcium (unless a water softener is involved). dGH measures the cations of calcium, magnesium, iron, strontium, aluminum, and manganese so the 6.0 dGH could be any or all of these minerals.


So if GH stands for German Hardness... KH stands for Korean Hardness ? Now it all makes sense.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

Tom Barr did a presentation for GSAS on September 14th, 2010. Since our water is similar to the water he has in the Sacramento area there were several questions concerning water hardness and GH Boosters. Here is a response I did on TPT less than a three months later providing the formula that Tom Barr gave us. I just went back and reviewed the video and the quantities/ratios that I posted is the formula that Tom Barr provided in the presentation. Obviously the formulation I am using is different.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

http://nilocg.com/gh-booster-1lb/

1:3 MgSO4:CaSO4

Ask @nilocg where he got the idea and when he started selling, he makes no secret of it. 

If Tom Barr decided to give you different recommendations for your water, this does not change that he has written /said some other mixes in the past, does it? Or is everybody free to copy the code from a previous software version and label their name on it because a new version is available? Luckily for all of us, few special people in the hobby go out of their way to [emoji769] or [emoji768] or [emoji767]. Most just rely on courtesy and decency of others.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

dukydaf said:


> So if GH stands for German Hardness... KH stands for Korean Hardness ? Now it all makes sense.



dGH is really more commonly degrees in general hardness.


> Specifically, 1 dKH is defined as 17.86 milligrams (mg) of calcium carbonate per litre of water, i.e. 17.86 ppm. Since a mole of calcium carbonate weighs 100.09 grams, 1 dKH is equivalent to 0.17832 mmol per litre.
> 
> *dKH are the same as °fH, degrees of French hardness.*


(spits out coffee laughing).. 


dKh.. something like degress in _Karbonathärte_ hardness.. or some such nonsense..



Why AD and BC?
Why change it to CE and BCE?


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

dukydaf said:


> Yes some GH is need for plants to grow. GH of 6 with at least 3-5mg/L Mg and more Ca. However this alone will not get you to your goal. It's good that you have low light for now, it's bad you get sunlight hitting the tank.
> Light +CO2+no ferts-> plant problems and algae growth. You need to dose.
> Water changes and general maintenance every 4 weeks -> accumulated organics + sunlight -> algae . Change water weekly and clean well, also the substrate, at least until you get rid of the algae.
> 
> Looking at the photos you have low plant density/mass dominated by slow growers. Add some more vallisneria, elodea, hygrophila polysperma , floating plants. Lots of healthy growing plants means low algae.


Thanks! I am getting the pieces in place to turn things around. It will be about another week before I've got the tank cleaned and it's time to play with chemicals. 

Fortunately my LFS is having their big summer sale soon so I can get some new plants cheap. My local club is also great.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

dukydaf said:


> 3:1 MgSO4:CaSO4
> [/quote]
> Hi [USE... reversed, possibly you meant 3:1 CaSO4:MgSO4


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Last night I used some GH booster in a Fluval Edge that I am setting up... Wanted to make sure that I knew what I was doing before I started dosing my 90 gal tank. After waiting a few hours to make sure things had dissolved I blew the dust off a brand new GH test kit and got to it. 

25 drops later, no sign of the endpoint. It should have been about 5-6. 

I checked my tap water, and stopped after 10 or 11 drops. It should have tested at 1-2 degrees. 

Checked the date on the reagent bottle... _2006_. Too bad it wasn't a bottle of Bordeaux. 

Time to buy new tests! Do the API vials still leak or did they fix their terrible caps? 

One step at a time!


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## rollinghighlander (Apr 25, 2018)

API vials still leak. Bought a new set a few months back

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk


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## ladykemma2 (Jul 10, 2018)

Cyano said:


> I have had a planted tank for about 20 years, but I wouldn't say I have 20 years of experience in the hobby... It feels like I have 1 year of experience 20 times. I had a few brief years of a nice-looking tank when I had the LFS starter-grade fluorescent hood that put out about one candlepower. Then, I "upgraded" my light and added CO2 and everything went to hell. I keep stepping down light output and photoperiod over the years. Nothing has cured the issue but lowering light has helped a bit.
> 
> I am sure that despite my best efforts I am making some fundamental errors, because I'm just overrun with BBA and even cyano sometimes. The only time I see clean leaves on my Java fern and bolbitis is when I prune the BBA-covered ones and reveal leaves that weren't in direct light.
> 
> ...


I gave up and tried a no tech tank. Really. All I did when I had dirted, substrate, you name it, tank was grow diatoms and algae. I never tried co2

Driftwood, Pothos, anubias and room / window lights, massive water changes, and overfeeding the fish. Looks like a river bottom ecosystem. Thriving and healthy. 

Next week I get to set up my classroom tanks from scratch. Might try Amazon swords again.. nah!

Sent from my KYOCERA-E6820 using Tapatalk


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist -- the Fluval 3.0 just arrived. Wow, what an upgrade! I don't have a PAR meter but it is absolutely much brighter to the eye than my worn out 55W folded tubes. Even if I turn the daylight setting down to 50% of the default power levels, it still looks brighter than the tubes did. The app could be better, but overall it's fantastic. Thanks for the recommendation. 

I definitely have enough PAR to get myself into _even more trouble_.  

I've mixed up some GH booster and figured out the right dosage per gallon to get GH to about 4, but since I got sidetracked by building a gravel vacuum, haven't yet finished the cleaning & water changes to "reset" the tank. I anticipate being ready to start dosing ferts this weekend, and I think I have all the chemicals and test kits I need now.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

I'm glad you like the light, it should give you years of good service. 

If you decide to re-join GSAS (you can probably get your old member number back) you will find some changes that may interest you: 1) GSAS has an Apogee MQ-510 PAR Meter that is available for members to check out for one week at no charge 2) many more national and international speakers than we had when you were a member with most talks in HD and stream-able through the GSAS video library on the website including talks by Tom Barr, Christel Kasselmann (DVD in club library) , Gary Lange, Lawrence Kent, Cara Wade, Karen Randall, Ian Fuller, Greg Sage, and many, many others. 3) there is a monthly auction after almost every meeting with great prices on member raised fish, plants, and spare equipment. 4) member discounts at most LFS including Aquarium Co-op and Denny's Pet World. This fall, Karen Randall (plant explorer with Christel Kasselmann; AGA judge) will be returning for her third visit from the East Coast to do a talk at our September 10th meeting. We now meet in the one of the largest classrooms on the SPU campus, typically 70+ members attend each meeting....hope to see you at one! -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist I'm definitely going to rejoin GSAS now that I am back to taking the hobby more seriously. Thanks for reminding me to ask about my old member number, that would be cool!


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

That is correct. I edited the original post. It was meant to be 1:3. Good argument for providing the original sources though.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

I have an update on the algae farm! It is currently _low on algae_ and I hope to keep it that way. 

*Recent Changes*


The tank is clean, most fouled leaves are gone (the sad crypt wendtii on the left still has fouled leaves, because otherwise it would have none at all. BTW that plant is about 7-8 years old and still about 2" tall. Low energy, SAD.)
Gravel has been vacuumed (and it was actually pretty clean due to light bioload and scraped algae being taken away with water changes)
GH adjusted to 5 degrees with the GH booster recipe Roy posted, and I will maintain 4-5 dGH in the future
Many new plants added as of today thanks to a local swap meet.

The new plants are: Crypt spiralis tiger, Juncus repens, Rotala mini butterfly, Ludwigia pantanal, Rotala sp. Enie, Vallisneria nana tiger, mayaca fluviatillis, Ludwigia atlantis. Some of these are difficult or slow growing, but they were at hand and cheap so I went for it. Hopefully there is enough fast-growing stock. I can always add more. 

*New data* 

Before, I said that the tank gets some diffuse, indirect sunlight in the morning. That is true but now I don't think it is much of a factor in algae growth. Here's why: I observed the tank in the morning light and realized that all algae growth is in line of the lights over the tank. There are places shadowed from the overhead light but that do get diffuse sunlight, and those places are 100% devoid of algae. 

With new long-stem plants in the tank I can see a lot of water movement from the powerheads that are aimed downward . I am sure the water is not turning over quickly deep inside my Java fern, but I do feel like I have good circulation otherwise. 

*What's next & questions!*

I think I have a good starting point now, and I would appreciate input on photoperiod, CO2, and fert dosing. This is the part of the process where I have stumbled in the past. 



I need to continue fiddling with my CO2 injection. I believe I have been under-injecting since my drop checker doesn't hit green until some hours after the lights come on. We want 30 PPM when the lights come on, right? (And I do have a pH meter in addition to the drop checker, if it helps.)
I need to verify my photoperiod. I am at 8 hours now, with CO2 starting/ending 2 hours early. I am using 50% of the intensity in the the Fluval LED 3.0 'Daylight' setting simply because that looked about the same as my worn out fluorescents. I am certainly open to turning it up now that I have more plants and can start ferts. 
Ferts! I have macros and CSM + B and Flourish Comprehensive on hand. @Seattle_Aquarist had recommended starting at 50% dosing. What specifically should I do for this 90 gal tank? Any articles to reference? Is EI what I want to do? This is where I am pretty lost and I wonder if my last 10 years out of the hobby have made what little I do know obsolete. 
Do I need to add more plants? 

Here are current photos. It's a bit cloudy since I did do a lot of cleaning the last couple of days, and things haven't filtered out yet. I also recently added some gypsum etc in the GH booster.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano

Many of those stems are unique and more challenging and were brought into GSAS and shared with members (like Bentley and Victor) as part of the Horticulture Awards Program. You may want to visit Aquarium Co-op or Denny's and pick up some easier species as well.

Since the stems/plants are small and just getting acclimated I suggest starting off easy and ramping up as the plants grow. I would like you to monitor your pH, dGH and NO3 ppm weekly after doing water changes. We are going to target pH 6.0 - 7.2, dGH 4.0 - 5.0, and NO3 10 ppm - 30 ppm. If you have CO2 we will need to add some baking soda (not baking powder) to avoid pH crash with the soft water in our area. I try to have about dKH @ +/-3.0 Here is what I suggest for dosing to begin with for your 90 gallon:

Two days a week macros: 1/8 teaspoon KNO3; 1/8 teaspoon K2SO4; 1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4; 9 ml of Seachem Flourish Comprehensive

Two days a week micros: 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B

When you do a water change add about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added.

Let's also 'ramp up' your photoperiod, maybe start with 5 hours per day total and increase 1/2 hour per week until algae starts appearing and then back down a 1/2 hour (or so). Don't forget to sign up to use the GSAS PAR meter per the PM I sent you this weekend. We will target a [email protected] or more to start.

Please post progress pics and reports as things progress for the several couple of weeks! -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist & everyone else tuned in, that's great info. I know a lot of those plants are not for beginners, but they were there and the price is right. At least I have some val.  I'll get some more easy plants at the Denny's sale coming up soon. 

For the KH boost I found a post from Rex Grigg saying: _One teaspoon will raise 50 liters/13 gallons of water 4°. So ¼ teaspoon would raise 50 liters/13 gallons by 1°. _ Does that sound right? 

Given that I have say 80 gal of water in my 90 gal tank, and my current dKH is about 1, that means I need to raise 80 gal by 2 dKH. So, that means: 90 gal / 13 gal * 1/4 tsp * 2 = 3.5 teaspoons total. (I will verify current KH with a test kit before I do anything, and add the bicarb over a couple of days. Just making sure I am in the right ballpark.)

You said _When you do a water change add about 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons of new water added._ Did you mean 1 tsp of each macro and CSM+B?

I'll sign up for the PAR meter ASAP. Do you have any inkling of how I should set the Fluval 3.0 in the meantime? It's 23" to the substrate in my tank. Is it better to err on the high or low side on PAR at this stage?

Edit to add: I found a reference to Cory's review of the 48" Fluval 3.0, which included a PAR measurement of 27 at 18-20". My tank is a little deeper so I will have a little less PAR, but at least now I know that I should turn the fixture up all the way, not down, if my suggested target is 50. (I knew I might have to double up fixtures when I bought this one, depending on what I wanted to grow.)

This process reminds me of one of my very favorite quotes:

_We have not succeeded in answering all our problems. The answers we have found only serve to raise a whole set of new questions. In some ways we feel we are as confused as ever, but we believe we are confused on a higher level and about more important things._

I am definitely confused on a higher level, and about more important things now. Again, thanks a million.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

I have found in my tanks if I have 2" - 3" of substrate my water volume is reduced by +/- 20%, for example my 75 gallon has approximately 60 gallons of water (measured with 3 gallon buckets). I would estimate your water volume is more like 72 gallons for the 90 gallon tank.

As for dKH...yes you are correct or 1/16 teaspoon of baking soda increases 3 gallons of water by 1.0 dKH.

Sorry, I didn't finish the thought.....


> When you do a water change add about 1 teaspoon of your DIY Equilibrium per 10 gallons of new water added.


I agree, start with full brightness but only a 5 hour photoperiod per day....let's see how things look after a week.

-Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist -- Re DIY Equilibrium, I see what you mean now, thanks for the clarification. 

I went ahead and figured out a grams per gallon equivalent for that and baking soda for KH boost. 

At this point I think the path is pretty clear. The only remaining open issue is tuning my CO2 delivery, but between my drop checker, pH meter, and a KH/pH/CO2 chart I have the instruments I need to determine if my current Boyu inline diffuser will get the job done. 

Tomorrow will be the first full day with all changes online!

Edit to add: tonight I finished adjusting water parameters and everything looks good. 3 dKH, 4 dGH, pH 6.6. KH/pH means CO2 is at 30 PPM, supported by a green drop checker. I do need to improve CO2 delivery so it gets to 30 PPM earlier, but that's one of the last things that needs tweaking. Cool!


I do need to get to 30 PPM earlier in the day, but other than that I am


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

About a week has passed, here's an update.

Things look good so far!

I had lightly cloudy water for several days in the first week of the new regime, but it has almost completely abated. 

I have been following the dosing instructions @Seattle_Aquarist gave me, did a 50% water change, and got GH/KH back into the right place with GH booster mix and sodium bicarb. CO2 delivery has been increased as well, and my drop checker starts the photoperiod at dark green and hits lime green an hour or so later.

There is some minor algae growth which mostly seems to be old areas that were not completely wiped out. I don't think new algae is growing on virgin surfaces. 

Best of all there is obvious new growth on some of the plants that were planted just a week ago. 

*Fert dosing is Mondays and Thursdays*

Macros: 1/8 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp K2SO4, 1/16 tsp KH2PO4, 9 ml of Seachem Flourish Comprehensive
Micros: 1/8 tsp CSM+B
50% water change Sun PM or Monday AM before dosing

*Water parameters*

GH steady at 5
KH steady at 3
NO3 was about 10 PPM just before the weekly 50% water change (I tested right after too, and it looked about 5 PPM, so I think I evaluated those colors correctly)
pH of aged water is 7.47; pH at peak CO2 is 6.21

*Photoperiod on Fluval LED 3.0*

30 minute sunrise
OEM daylight setting for 5.5 hours
30 minute sunset

*Things to do?*

Do I need to increase NO3? It was ~10 PPM 4 days after a fert dose, just before a water change. When should I test? 
I may be able to increase CO2 a tiny bit more because I have zero signs of livestock distress. Per a KH/pH/CO2 chart I am over 50 PPM already. But, as we know, it is hard to measure this exactly. 
The Fluval LED 3.0 does not turn up ALL of its LEDs on the stock Daylight setting. I can boost pink, blue, cold white, and warm white levels, but I am not sure if I should.
I probably still need more plants. I have elodea in a quarantine tank, I will give it a potassium permanganate dip and put it in this week... Probably need even more, though.

Thanks again for everyone's input, I am encouraged. 

*Current photo*


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Definitely see new growth, including the new leaf on the Cryptocoryne retrospiralis? (left center rear). Time to go after that algae and prevent it from getting established! Clean one area really thoroughly, then use it to judge if the algae is coming back or not.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

If you mean this guy @Seattle_Aquarist, yeah, that long strand is new growth. 










I honestly have no idea what that poor suffering plant is. I have had it for years and I just hack down its few algae-covered strands when they are too ugly to look at any more. I thought it was some kind of val, it has long thin leaves, not broad leaves?

What is it? Here's a closeup. (Fortunately I work from home today!)










Poor plant, you can see that it isn't growing at all where I hacked it back, the one long stand is the only new growth!

And I do need to continue to get the algae off the back glass. Well-cleaned spots from before are still looking good, though.

I do like my mossy fish caves though! I'll leave that stuff alone.


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## Marc Davis (Aug 2, 2018)

Im glad things are working out for you.

I have had the same issues in the past.

Partly because i have my lights on for 16 hours a day haha. But i insist on this as i want to see my fish at the end of the day.

The way i got round my algae was actually increasing the light, adding tons of stem plants and lowering ferts drastically. Worked out amazing in the end and the tank looks nice and fresh now.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Marc Davis said:


> Im glad things are working out for you.
> 
> I have had the same issues in the past.
> 
> ...


So your saying you ran your lights 16 hrs a day, but by increasing them adding more plants and reducing ferts you got rid of algae?

More then likely it was simply the addition of the “ton of stem plants” and you probably did a bunch of water changes that reduced algae and not the reduction of ferts.


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## Marc Davis (Aug 2, 2018)

asteriod said:


> So your saying you ran your lights 16 hrs a day, but by increasing them adding more plants and reducing ferts you got rid of algae?
> 
> More then likely it was simply the addition of the “ton of stem plants” and you probably did a bunch of water changes that reduced algae and not the reduction of ferts.


Yes, i ran my lights for 16 hours a day. I now also run them 16 hours a day, but added a 20watt LED floodlight as well.

I have always had the same water change schedule (30 - 40% once a week).

The stem plants have certainly helped.

Here is before (not sure if you can see the bba and mess on the plants). And then after. 

5 weeks difference. Both pictures have diy yeast/sugar co2 (all i use as my wife wont let me splash out on injection lol).


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

That looks nice. 

All I’m saying is you can’t attribute it to reduced ferts since u changed many things. I mentioned water changes because usually when u kill off algae u want to remove the dead stuff.

You do realize that one of the most popular dosing methods (EI) is based on having excessive ferts in the water, many times at extreme amounts and people do this without algae issues.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

At this point I'd be happy with 6 hours a day of lights and no problems.  Nice looking discus tank!

It looks like you have very little surface agitation, how do you aerate?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

How are things going to date?


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist, so far, so good I think. I was out of town and missed my water change schedule by a day, but that's the biggest problem I have had so far. 

I'm holding GH at 4-5 and KH at 3 with mineral additions, piece of cake. NO3 is still about 10 PPM. 

Obvious new growth continues on most of the new plants, especially _ludwigia atlantis_ and _mayaca fluviatilis_. The _juncus repens_ isn't doing much of anything yet. (I still haven't treated the elodea I bought, but will do that and add it this week.)

The leaves that existed when I got _rotala mini butterfly_ plants are looking ragged, but the new growth looks OK. I assume some amount of melting is expected.

Old algae colonies still exist in some places on the back glass, but I clean them up a bit more at every water change. I've also removed more old ugly leaves from the java fern. 

No appreciable amounts of new algae are appearing as far as I can tell, though I had a couple of brown spots on the glass pop up this week. (Diatoms?)

Here's a current image.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Yep, it does look like things are improving, if you can up that nitrate level to about 20 ppm since you have CO2 you should be fine. Is the drop checker still showing 'green'?


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Cyano,
> 
> Yep, it does look like things are improving, if you can up that nitrate level to about 20 ppm since you have CO2 you should be fine. Is the drop checker still showing 'green'?


Currently I am dosing macros & micros 2x/week per the fert schedule you suggested. The KNO3 dose is 1/8 tsp. If I wanted to increase NO3 how would you proceed? I can simply add more of it on the existing schedule, or add a new KNO3 dose on a third day, or up all ferts proportionally by increasing the dose _or_ adding a third dose day... 

The drop checker is green, though I can probably still tweak the system to make it lighter green closer to lights-on time. Since I have a good pH meter I am checking pH/KH and pH drop values, too. (By the chart method I am already over 30 PPM... my delivery may not be _optimized_ yet but a CO2 levels probably aren't a _problem_.)


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Let's do one extra dose of just the KNO3 per week for a total of three (3) doses, this should add about 2 ppm of NO3 to the tank. Do not increase dosing of any of the other nutrients, just the KNO3. When do you typically take your water parameter readings, before water changes, after water changes, or sometime during the week?

-Roy

BTW, the GSAS Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter should be back tomorrow - would you like to get it this weekend?


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Roger, one more dose of KNO3 only!

I have been testing immediately before and after the weekly 50% water change. It's hard to read those NO3 colors, but getting one reading and one that I know is reduced by half has made me pretty confident that NO3 is about 10 PPM at week's end. I am totally open to ideas on any other testing schedule. 

And yes, I can most likely pick up the PAR meter this weekend. Cool!

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

It really doesn't matter when water parameters are tested as long as it is consistent.

I will text you when the PAR meter is returned and I have checked it is in good working order (your # is on the form you filled out). Maybe we could meet at Cory's shop, Aquarium Zen, or The Fish Store about noon on Saturday.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist -- I have PAR readings for the tank now. What a cool instrument!

Short version, at the gravel I have 44-48 with the Fluval LED 3.0 "Daylight" setting. The coverage is fairly uniform front to back, but of course there are all kinds of plants casting shade, too. 

If I turn up all the LEDs all the way, the reading increases to 51-52. This does make the light slightly more blue, but it doesn't look bad. 

I do have _some_ happy looking plants, but my _juncus repens_ is growing slowly and the leaves that it came with are not doing great. After my next round of water changing and cleaning I will take some closeup photos of potential trouble spots on a few specimens.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Hey @Seattle_Aquarist and anyone else tuned in, here's the weekly update. Today is about 4 weeks from the beginning of my efforts, and 3 weeks from the time I added some new plants from a swap meet. 

For just one week I have been adding a supplemental dose of NO3 only on Roy's advice. Today's NO3 levels pre-water change were somewhere between 5-10 PPM. I believe Roy said that the supplemental dose (1/8 tsp 1x/week) would account for about 2 PPM so I guess I am not surprised it is hard to see. 

As I mentioned in my previous post I have ~50 PAR available at the substrate. The difference between the stock setting and maxed out is ~5 so I went ahead and turned it up yesterday. Photoperiod is 6.5 hours on full power and an additional 30 min period of sunrise/sunset on each side. 

I did notice some more algae growth over the last week so maybe the last bump of +30 minutes of light was too much. PAR is also increased by about 10%, though that has only been in effect for a day. 

So, how do the plants look? You tell me. 

This is _rotala mini butterfly_. It has now lost most of the leaves that it came with, but you can see new growth on top since I planted it. (This much melt may be normal, I don't know.)










_Ludwigia atlantis_ had kept all of its leaves, and more than doubled in length... But leaves that have grown since I have had it do have a little algae growing on them. 



















Not pictured is _rotala enie_, which has kept all its old leaves, but also has a light dusting of algae. It's the same story for a few others: _crypt spiralis tiger, ludwigia pantanal_. _Mayaca fluviatillis_ is growing like a weed and doesn't seem to have any algae growing on it. 

*Everything looks good from arm's length, some of the plants are growing quickly... but when you look close, there is definitely some algae taking hold.*

I may still be able to increase my CO2 level, but it won't be by much, we're into diminishing returns there.

I do still intend to add some more plants, but not until next weekend at the earliest. Stock suggestions always welcome! 

What should I change to combat this? Reduce light level or light time or both? Something else?

Thanks again for the help!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Back down to the last level where you had minimal algae, clean up what has shown up lately, and if after a couple of weeks the algae is still minimal you are golden. You may be able to 'bump' up your intensity and photoperiod when you have more plants but let's see what plants you acquire. Have you checked your dGH lately? I see some 'hooking' of new leaf tips in the second picture.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

OK @Seattle_Aquarist, lights are cut back an hour, and PAR is back down to ~45 from ~50. I will try to clean the leaves and see what happens. Maybe you can help me pick out more plants next week when I see you to return the meter. 

Water values have been pretty steady since I started refurbishing the tank a month ago:

4 dGH, 3 dKH, ~10 PPM NO3. 

I can certainly add more GH if it will help. I had no idea the bent tips indicted a deficiency!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

FYI you name came up at the GSAS board meeting last night when we were discussing 'new members'.

Let's bump up the dGH to 5.0 and see if there is some improvement.


> Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)
> 
> A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.
> 
> ...


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist, here's the latest. As you know last week at Aquarium Zen I got mostly lower plants, hoping to get a foreground growing. 

Blyxa japonica (aka bamboo plant, dwarf Asian grass)
Crypt parva 
Echinodorous tenellus "pygmy chain sword"
Ranunculus inundatus
Micranthemum sp. "Monte Carlo" AKA large pearl grass
Eleocharis parvula
nymphoides hydrophylla 'Taiwan'

Today I went to Aquarium Co-Op and got a couple of easier stem plants too, because I am not sure if I have enough fast-growing plants yet. 

Ceratopteris sp. "Water sprite," "Indian water fern"
Pogostemon stellatus octopus 

I also got a Alternanthera reineckii "Pink" which was probably a bad idea since I am not even sure I can keep water sprite alive yet. It was too pretty to pass up, though. 

*Unfortunately there are signs of algae, even BBA, on the lower, shaded, older leaves on many of the plants. The algae is growing slowly, but it is my impression that things are not moving in the right direction. *

I moved my drop checker low in the tank to see if I was getting good CO2-enriched water circulation, and I think I am. Based on pH/KH readings I should have at least 30 PPM so I don't think there is more tweaking to do there. 

I have reduced the photoperiod back to 5.5 hours, plus 15 minute sunrise/set periods. 

With CO2 dialed in (I think) the only knobs left are light time, light amount, and ferts. 

I'm using your fert suggestions from before, which were to start slow... Current dosing levels are well under the EI regimen, and my first set of plants have settled in. *Is it time to dose more ferts?* 

Here is a current photo...

I rearranged things quite a bit, took out all my boring (sad, holey) central java fern and put it in my low-light Q-tank. It was taking up primo real estate in the big tank and I wanted to give the new plants plenty of light. The image below is a little cloudy because it was right after working in the tank, changing the water, and adding mineral supplements.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

I think I would stay with the current dosing levels. Have you checked your nitrates lately? The NO3 will give us an idea as to how much uptake the plants are doing and if increased dosing is indicated or not; right now I would not call the tank 'densely planted'.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Cyano,
> 
> I think I would stay with the current dosing levels. Have you checked your nitrates lately? The NO3 will give us an idea as to how much uptake the plants are doing and if increased dosing is indicated or not; right now I would not call the tank 'densely planted'.


Every week I have tested NO3 it has been consistent at ~10 PPM. It is very hard to read the color scale when the value is so low; I would say it is _no more than_ 10 PPM, and perhaps somewhat less. 

I will stick to the plan.

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Let's see what those new plants and stems look like after a week. I especially want to see what the new leaves on the Nymphoides hydrophylla (sp 'Taiwan) look like and any new leaves on the L. repens.

-Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist -- here's an update. 

*Steady parameters*
5-6 dGH (boosted from the original 4-5 to address a possible calcium deficiency)
3-4 dKH
CO2 is in the neighborhood of 30 PPM
Photoperiod is 5.5 hrs plus 15 min sunrise/set, PAR ~45

*Nitrate*
NO3 was originally 5-10 PPM _but as of my last test was 0 - 5 PPM_

*Recent Changes*

New plants were added over the last 2 weeks including the one you gave me. 
Yesterday I moved in 3 tiny clown loaches and 2 otos, who had previously been on diatom cleanup duty in a low-light shrimp tank.
To combat BBA on old leaves, I have added a few doses of Metricide, which has made it all turn pink.

*Observations*
Growth of nuisance algae has slowed, I think, with the short photoperiod... but I do see a light dusting of diatoms in some place, and old/shaded leaves slowly pick up diatoms, hair algae, and even BBA. With BBA not 100% eradicated, I did decide to dose glutaraldehyde. 

The tank looks pretty OK, but if our goal is NO nuisance algae growing, that hasn't happened. But it is growing SLOWLY at least.

The teeny, tiny plants didn't stay rooted despite my best efforts and floated away piece by piece. (How do you keep something like _Micranthenum sp._ 'Monte Carlo' from floating away in light substrate?)

Nitrate levels have dropped, which I guess is not surprising since plant mass has at least tripled since I started the refurb project. That API test is hard to read but I put it at 0 to 5 PPM, and a couple of weeks ago it was more like 5 to 10 PPM. 

*Photos*

Here is an overview. Quite a change from about 5 weeks ago. 










This is the plant you gave me. It has grown one new leaf which is more taco-shaped than the old leaves. Do you think that is indicative of a calcium issue?










Indicated are some new leaves on the _Alternanthera reineckii_ 'Pink'. I don't see any obvious deformities or discolorations. 










This is the crypt parva that I got at Aquarium Zen. It has new growth, but the old leaves do have a little algae. 










*What's next?*

I suppose I should add more plants, but I am running out of well-lit spots. If the lower plants in the center of the tank don't thrive that is a large area that can take more stem plants, but I sure do hope I can grow something besides stem plants!

Nitrate levels have plummeted, is it time to up ferts?

Any other ideas?

THANKS! :grin2:


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

That Nymphoides hydrophylla leaf should flatten out, if not then a little more GH booster to up your Ca would be suggested.

I agree, the other new leaves are looking good and overall the tank looks good and healthy as well. Yes, it is time to up your dosing of KNO3 to get the nitrates up; I target 20 ppm +/- 10 ppm. To get the nitrates up I suggest trying the following dosing:

Two days a week macros: 3/16 teaspoon KNO3*; 1/16 teaspoon K2SO4*; 1/16 teaspoon KH2PO4; 9 ml of Seachem Flourish Comprehensive

Two days a week micros: 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B

Try the above for a couple of weeks, if the nitrate level is still low (which could be if the plants keep growing) we will adjust the dosing levels again. *Note that we have upped the KNO3 dosing but dropped the K2SO4 dosing. Why? By upping the KNO3 we are increasing both the NO3 (nitrates) but we are also increasing the K (potassium). So reducing the K2SO4 should allow us to keep the potassium level fairly constant.

BTW, I think you are really starting to get a handle on this tank - congratulations!

On a side note Karen Randall's talk this evening was on aquarium plants tracing the process from plant exploring, documentation done at collecting sites, to plant identification, to initial propagation, to nursery propagation, and finally to aquarium was very good; it is a talk that has only been given at the AGA Convention in 2016 and two other clubs. Erik did do a video so when it becomes available you may want to check it out. Tomorrow night is Karen's brand new talk on her recent plant collecting expedition to Borneo - it should be great! There should be a good auction tomorrow night as well; if you want to see what is being offered you can find it here (you will have to be logged in). The list will grow substantially as we get closer to meeting time; and there is always items that are not pre-registered. Hope you can make it tomorrow!


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist!

With regard to the dosing... For 2 weeks now I had been adding a supplemental KNO3-only dose of 1/8 tsp that you recommended, because even then I was barely hitting 10 PPM. So my current KNO3 dosing is _already_ 3/8 tsp/week total as in this revised dose, but I need still more. Let me know what you think!

I was curious how the regimen we are discussing compares to the full EI schedule, so I made a little spreadsheet. The top section repeats the data from the dosing document, and the _My Dosing_ section is the dosing we are currently discussing, including a row that shows that macro as a percentage of the full EI dose. Roughly speaking I am at 1/5 the full EI dose for macros for my tank size, though technically I guess this is still lightly planted. I just wanted to know.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

If you have seen photos of Tom Barr's (who developed EI dosing) tanks they are very heavily planted, maybe 3X or 4X your plant density. If you are already dosing 3/8 teaspoon of KNO3 and only running about 5 ppm of NO3 then I agree it is time to bump it up again. However let's also bring up the PO4 as well.

Two days a week macros: 2/8 teaspoon KNO3; 1/16 teaspoon K2SO4; 3/32 teaspoon KH2PO4; 9 ml of Seachem Flourish Comprehensive (we are bumping up the NO3, decreasing the K, and increasing the PO4).

Two days a week micros: 1/8 teaspoon CSM+B

Hope we see you tonight at the meeting!

-Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thank you kindly @Seattle_Aquarist! That makes sense. 

Unfortunately I can't make it to the meeting but I will definitely catch the videos. We are lucky to have such a great club.


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## The Algae Farm (Aug 24, 2018)

Are you dosing everything on the same day? 

Most of the info I've seen recommended dosing CSM+B and NPK on different days. I know with some fertilizers dosing on the same day can cause elements of each to bond to each other and either becoming inert or losing bioavailability. 

I'd be very curious to see if you would have any change in plant/algae growth by dosing them on different days.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @The Algae Farm,

Welcome to TPT!

Yes, based upon our discussions @Cyano is dosing macros two days a week and micros on different days two days a week. I believe the two nutrients that you are referring to are iron (in the CSM+B) and phosphate (in the KH2PO4) which if dosed at the same time will form iron phosphate and be unavailable to plants. It stands to reason if we make iron and phosphate unavailable to our plants then growth is likely to be affected.


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## The Algae Farm (Aug 24, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @The Algae Farm,
> 
> Welcome to TPT!
> 
> Yes, based upon our discussions @Cyano is dosing macros two days a week and micros on different days two days a week. I believe the two nutrients that you are referring to are iron (in the CSM+B) and phosphate (in the KH2PO4) which if dosed at the same time will form iron phosphate and be unavailable to plants. It stands to reason if we make iron and phosphate unavailable to our plants then growth is likely to be affected.


Oh, iron and phosphate bond together? That's good to know, thanks!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

The Algae Farm said:


> Are you dosing everything on the same day?
> 
> Most of the info I've seen recommended dosing CSM+B and NPK on different days. I know with some fertilizers dosing on the same day can cause elements of each to bond to each other and either becoming inert or losing bioavailability.
> 
> I'd be very curious to see if you would have any change in plant/algae growth by dosing them on different days.


I wouldn't get too caught up in this.

Many of us now are front loading macros then dosing micros daily. Tanks are better than ever. 

Just saying, dosing on different days is probably one of the least most important things to worry about. Makes pretty much no difference at all. Focus on the getting lights and CO2 right first. And get the tank uber clean. Get these right and you have much more leeway on ferts.

Sometimes we get off track, and forget about the things that really matter.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

It's been a while, here's another update. And I caught up on the last few posts, somehow I missed them... actually, I HAVE been dosing everything on the same day! Maybe that has something to do with a problem I am having, which I'll show in the pics. 

But overall things are going OK, _most_ plants are growing and the algae seems to be under control... I did see a little BBA but did a couple met treatments and that kept it down. As I was promised, having MORE plants seems to make algae management easier, but my two otos are helping out! 

The numbers: I am hitting GH 5-6, KH 3-4, CO2 ~30 PPM OK. Just before the weekly water change, my NO3 is approximately 5 PPM. The test colors are hard to read, but I don't think it's as high as 10 PPM. 

First is a current tank overview. The left side needs pruning, I will cut back that _ludwigia atlantis_ soon. @Seattle_Aquarist, you can see the _nymphoides hydrophylla_ 'Taiwan' in the center, about 5x bigger than when you gave it to me. (There is a closeup pic below too.) 

The plants I had hoped might spread into a carpet are barely hanging on, and certainly aren't growing. If I want growth across the bottom, I need to try something else. And despite the left of the tank being shaded, these low plants in the center have had weeks of unobstructed light. I guess it just isn't enough, though. 










_nymphoides hydrophylla_ 'Taiwan', closeup of mature leaves. Roy, do these look right to you? 










_ludwigia atlantis_ -- new leaves often hook down, older leaves are a combination of flat and slightly hooked downward. 










The _Alternanthera reineckii _"Pink" has a fair number of holes and discolored spots on older leaves. (The _nymphoides hydrophylla_ 'Taiwan' has a few holes on the oldest, most shaded leaves, but not this bad.) This may have everything to do with lighting, it is no more than 45 on the PAR meter down by the gravel, but I wonder if it is nutrient-related since Roy was already suspicious about a deficiency due to the shape of the ludwigia "Atlantis" leaves. 










Lastly I am working on adding some signs to help me remember what is planted!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Looks like your growth is really kicking in; this is a substantial improvement over where the tank was two months ago. It is time to get out the scissors and do some trimming guy, personally I would do both sides! Getting some of those longer stems cut back will help the carpet plants that probably are suffering from lack of light.

Your tank no longer qualifies as 'sparsely planted', I think it is time to increase your dosing of nutrients; with increased plant density comes increased nutrient demand.

Have you checked any of your water parameters lately including NO3, dKH, and dGH? What are they?

I am guessing that the increased number of plants has caused your calcium, magnesium, and potassium uptake to increase (along with the others) and that is why deficiencies are starting to return. The Nymphoides hydrophylla leaves look good, if older leaves are suffering it is likely that they are shaded, your potassium levels have dropped, or both.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I confess that I didn't read the entire thread....I'm just to lazy this morning!

You need to do the anti-algae dance - it's like a brake dancer on drugs. If that doesn't work, you might need to sacrifice something else besides your self respect! LOL

Okay, seriously...algae is the result of excess nutrients and LIGHT. You need to manually remove as much algae as you can, then do water changes (perhaps several 50-75%) AND reduce the lighting intensity and/or duration. In some cases, a blackout for as much as several days may be in order. THEN you need to fertilize those plants! In addition, since your water is so soft, a product like Seachem Equilibrium will aid in getting calcium and magnesium in the water. 
------
In worse case scenarios, you could use Seachem Excel and H2O2, but these are pretty harsh and from my perspective should be the last line in the sand before tear down, sterilization, and start over.
------
But all of this has likely already been said (er written) and your already on your way to less algae and healthier plants! Good Luck


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @Cyano,
> 
> Looks like your growth is really kicking in; this is a substantial improvement over where the tank was two months ago.


It is hard to believe what it used to look like. 

What you can't see well in any of the photos I have posted so far is a real comeback story: I have had what I think is a bronze crypt just barely hanging on ... for about 10 years it just had just a few sad, algae-covered leaves, but now it's finally doing well. 

Mineral parameters are stable: 5 dGH, 4 dKH

If I am reading the color chart right, NO3 is no more than 5 PPM. 

I always do the tests just before a water change, which is a few days from the last fert addition. 

Is it time to up the ferts again? Going forward I will break up macros and micros too.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Cyano said:


> It is hard to believe what it used to look like.
> 
> What you can't see well in any of the photos I have posted so far is a real comeback story: I have had what I think is a bronze crypt just barely hanging on ... for about 10 years it just had just a few sad, algae-covered leaves, but now it's finally doing well.
> 
> ...


Hi @Cyano,

We may have to up the dGH a little more but let's see what happens to the water parameters and how the plants respond after the trim is completed. Same with the macros and micros, let's see if they go up with less plant material in the tank. I usually go for 20ppm - 30ppm of NO3 as a target level and dose the rest in proportion. I always dose micros on alternate days from macros.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I usually go for 20ppm - 30ppm of NO3 as a target level and dose the rest in proportion. I always dose micros on alternate days from macros.


I just tested NO3. I am a day ahead of my usual testing schedule but it still shows 5-10 PPM, which is consistent with what I have seen before when I test on Sunday before a WC. 

The spreadsheet below shows my CURRENT dosing, and how that relates to the typical EI doses. (While I am not blindly following EI it is useful to me to know what a realistic fert dose is.)

If I want to boost NO3 so that I get ~20 PPM at testing, and then I want to scale up the other doses to match... then it seems like I should double my NO3 dosing. I can then bring up the other doses to the same level. 










This is under half the EI dosing regimen for the tank size, so this still seems like a conservative target since I am no longer sparsely planted.

The number of holes and blotches on some of the plants are still increasing ... though I just don't know if it's light or nutrition.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

Yep, time to increase the dosing levels. I'm not sure the Nymphoides hydrophylla is suffering a nutrient issue, that looks more like physical damage maybe a snail or ??. The leaves in the background are showing some Mg and possibly K deficiency so you may need to increase the macros, micros, and GH Booster as well. Did you get your trim done? Pics?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Cyano, IMO, you'd be better off to start thinking in ppm and not tsp. Those numbers mean little to most without having to calculate the values.

Will make it much easier for others to offer their opinions and help.

That Nymphoides looks to me like it is deprived of nutrients. That plant is one of the easiest there is, and shouldn't complain at all, but it's telling you something. More than likely too low of everything.

At 20ppm NO3, my tank would hate me. 

If I were you, I would forget about my preconceived notions about dosing. I doubt GH levels are your problem, and start dosing more of everything. Watch the plants carefully, and see how they react. 

You might be surprised.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Cyano, IMO, you'd be better off to start thinking in ppm and not tsp.


That would be great; do you know of a reference for suggested levels of ferts in PPM? I've read up on the EI method but only ever saw dry doses discussed. I am not experienced enough to make up a regimen, but I can follow instructions. 

All I know for sure is that my fert dose IS conservative. My NO3 is about 5 PPM (test colors are hard to read), and some of the plants are not doing well. So I certainly believe I should up my dose but I am not sure by how much. If 20 PPM is a minimum I am probably under half the needed dose of NO3 and presumably everything else should be increased by the same amount. 
@Seattle_Aquarist, below is a picture after today's pruning. I didn't chop enough last week so there was still a lot of shadow. I pruned more aggressively today and replanted some of the stems in open areas. 

I included a closeup of the _Nymphoides_ and _Alternanthera reineckii "Pink"_ which are both looking *worse by the day* right now. There is nothing in the tank like snails which would account for physical damage. 

*Is there any reason I shouldn't turn up the gas and maybe double my dosing?* Provided I monitor NO3, of course!










New growth is a nice pink, older growth is beginning to melt. All _Nymphoides_ leaves are now developing holes. My stem plants and crypt are doing OK.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

I suggest dosing everything at 2X your current levels and then check your water parameters after a week of dosing at the new levels, especially dKH, dGH, and ppm of NO3.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thanks @Seattle_Aquarist! Makes sense from what I am seeing and what @Greggz was suggesting. I will do that and report back next Sunday. 

Do I need to begin testing phosphate, etc? Happy to do that if I know what I am shooting for!


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Cyano,

Once a month, usually after the first water change of the month, I check the following water parameters:

pH
dKH
dGH
ppm of NO3

If I see signs of iron deficiency I check ppm of Fe

I also have a calcium test kit and a phosphate test kit which I use when I suspect a problem


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

OK, those first 4 are all things that I check often already. 

I'll look into picking up the other 3.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Cyano said:


> That would be great; do you know of a reference for suggested levels of ferts in PPM? I've read up on the EI method but only ever saw dry doses discussed. I am not experienced enough to make up a regimen, but I can follow instructions.


Cyano my advice would be to learn to use either the Zorfox or Rotalabutterfly calculators. It will help you understand the result of your dosing. For instance, here is a screenshot for KNO3 dosing in a 90G tank. EI recommends 7.5 ppm NO3 per dose.










But keep in mind EI is just a starting point. The sweet spot for your tank might be more or less. It's up to you to find it. Personally I provide a very rich environment, for both CO2 and ferts. But others may do better with less. No single right or wrong way that I have seen.

Either way, getting used to thinking in ppm will help you. Many of the folks with journals post their dosing, and you will notice it's always in ppm. It will help you compare your dosing to theirs, so you can get a better idea of your relative values. And be prepared, because it might not be what you expect. 



Cyano said:


> *Is there any reason I shouldn't turn up the gas and maybe double my dosing?* Provided I monitor NO3, of course!


Yes, you can turn up the gas.

With CO2 you should start thinking in pH drop and not CO2 ppm. You will never know your CO2 ppm. However, pH drop is a good relative value to base your injection on. I know you've read a thousand times that you should target a one point drop. Well once again, if you read carefully many of the journals here, you will find many successful tanks routinely drop it lower. 

Of course keep an eye on livestock, but many are dropping more like 1.2 to 1.4 at peak. Also make sure to calibrate your pH meter, and take the time to know your degassed reading. 

And as to monitoring your NO3, I'd forget about that for awhile. You are a long way from having too much. Every tank is different, but my NO3 is about 15ppm.......after a 70% water change. And fish and plants are healthy.

IMO, too many base their dosing on what they think should work, or on what they read should work.

Just saying, throw away some of your preconceived notions. Heck, you could dose three times as much as you are, and still be dosing less than many here. The key is watching the plants, and seeing how they react. Dialing ferts in is a process, and takes some thought and effort.

All in all, you seem like someone who wants to get a bit more serious. I've been following along and hope you reach your goals.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Thank you kindly @gregzz for the thoughtful reply. That tool is certainly new to me, and what you're saying makes a lot of sense. I'll keep at it!


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## Talono (Oct 19, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Cyano,
> 
> Once a month, usually after the first water change of the month, I check the following water parameters:
> 
> ...


What calcium kits do you use? I can only find the saltwater calcium test kits.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Talono said:


> What calcium kits do you use? I can only find the saltwater calcium test kits.


https://usa.hagen.com/Aquatic/Watercare/Test-Kits/A7850


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Time for a long overdue update. I was busy with other things over the holidays and until recently and backslid on my tank care regimen. Many of my less hardy plants melted, diatoms came back, some cyano came back, but I am getting back in the saddle. It was very instructional to see what a difference missing a couple of water changes made. 

Things still weren't perfect when I slacked off, though. When I did the first increase in my dosing, back when I was being diligent, I frequently had small patches of cyano. I still had problems with holey plants, too. So, my dosing was never really right for macro or micro, probably. 

My plan is to restart fert dosing from scratch, thinking in PPM this time as @Greggz suggested. 

*I'm unsure of how to adjust my dose to account for my starting water parameters, though.*

I calculated my true water volume at 75 gal. I have very soft tap water so when I do a ~36 gal water change I routinely add 30 g of Roy's GH booster recipe, and 18 g of sodium bicarb. *This reliably gives me a base of 5 dGH and 4 dKH.* (The actual components of the 30 g GH boost dose are 8.63 g K2SO4, 5.85 g MgSO4, 15.51 g CaSO4.)

*Should I just disregard the K2SO4 in the GH boost and dose the EI allotment of K2SO4 on top of it? *

If I don't make any compensation for that, Zorfox gives me this for EI dosing though as Greggz said, much much more may be called for. 


To raise NO3 7.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 3.47 gm of KNO3. 3.47 gm is approximately 3/4 teaspoons(s)
To raise PO4 1.3 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 528.84 mg of KH2PO4. 528.84 mg is approximately 1/8 teaspoons(s)
To raise K 7.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 4.75 gm of K2SO4. 4.75 gm is approximately 3/4 teaspoons(s)
To raise Fe 0.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 2.17 gm of Plantex CSM+B. 2.17 gm is approximately 1/2 teaspoons(s)

Greggz or @Seattle_Aquarist, would you suggest other PPM per dose values to start with, and should I be looking at 2x or 3x doses per week?

Thanks as always guys!


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

I personally like my ca/mg to be 30/10 which you could accomplish by doubling your gh booster which would also double your k meaning you won’t have to dose from another source. As long as you don’t have plans that require super soft water I like to have a non-limiting amount of calcium and magnesium without going overboard as well as keeping my potassium relatively low at about 20 ppm. Your macro and micro dosing that you posted with the stars next to it seem like good standard EI levels as long as they’re being dosed three times a week. I did not check your math but those PPM’s look good assuming you have high plant mass CO2 and decent lighting. I’m sure one of the people you mentioned will chime in to help. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

I definitely don't need to care for plants which require super soft water... My favorite plants are any plants that grow.  I like the idea of eliminating one of the daily doses if the base water treatment can cover it, too.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Cyano said:


> Time for a long overdue update. I was busy with other things over the holidays and until recently and backslid on my tank care regimen. Many of my less hardy plants melted, diatoms came back, some cyano came back, but I am getting back in the saddle. It was very instructional to see what a difference missing a couple of water changes made.


Slacking on maintenance and skipping water changes is about the worst thing you can do. The better you get at growing plants, the more important regular maintenance becomes.



Cyano said:


> I calculated my true water volume at 75 gal. I have very soft tap water so when I do a ~36 gal water change I routinely add 30 g of Roy's GH booster recipe, and 18 g of sodium bicarb. *This reliably gives me a base of 5 dGH and 4 dKH.* (The actual components of the 30 g GH boost dose are 8.63 g K2SO4, 5.85 g MgSO4, 15.51 g CaSO4.)
> 
> *Should I just disregard the K2SO4 in the GH boost and dose the EI allotment of K2SO4 on top of it? *


IMO, don't use GH booster. Get some CaSO4 and MgSO4. You don't want or need the extra K, and you can adjust the ratio as you need to later. And if you continue with GH booster, do not disregard the K being added, and don't add more from K2SO4.

Like mentioned above, I would get closer to Ca 30 ppm and Mg 10 or 15 ppm. 



Cyano said:


> To raise NO3 7.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 3.47 gm of KNO3. 3.47 gm is approximately 3/4 teaspoons(s)
> To raise PO4 1.3 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 528.84 mg of KH2PO4. 528.84 mg is approximately 1/8 teaspoons(s)
> To raise K 7.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 4.75 gm of K2SO4. 4.75 gm is approximately 3/4 teaspoons(s)
> To raise Fe 0.5 ppm in your 75 gallon tank you will need to add 2.17 gm of Plantex CSM+B. 2.17 gm is approximately 1/2 teaspoons(s)
> ...


NO3 and PO4 are standard EI. Hard to say what is right, much depends on your plant mass and mix of plants. Do you have a recent picture? In general, EI assumes a pretty well planted tank and high light. If you are low on plants, get more. Much easier to get started with more plant mass.

Maybe start at 2x per week and work your way up if you need to. Or you could just front load macros and not worry about doses during the week. Either way should work fine. A little too much is better than not enough. For now you just want to make sure you have plenty of everything and plants aren't starving. 

Do not add any additional K from K2SO4. And 0.5 Fe is way off. Rotalabutterfly changed it to 0.2 a while back. I don't know why Zorfox didn't. CSM+B has it's own issues. If you are going to use it, I would make a solution so that you are not measuring small dry amounts. And depending on your pH, it may not be a very good choice for Fe. 

Now all that being said, IMO more important are light level, CO2, and maintenance. What light are you running now? Any idea of PAR? How long are lights on? Keep in mind too little PAR can be a problem just like too much. 

Do you have a good accurate measure of degassed pH? What pH drop are you targeting? 

Keeping up on water changes? Cleaning filters? Removing any dead or decaying plant matter? Vacuuming substrate? In general, keeping things uber clean?

If light, CO2, and maintenance are dialed in, you have a lot more leeway with ferts. If you don't have light, CO2, and maintenance dialed in, adjusting ferts will have little impact. 

Have you checked out the Share Your Dosing thread? Lot's of folks sharing their dosing so you can get an idea of what others are doing. Pay attention to the PAR and pH drop. You will notice a pattern pretty quick. 

Good luck and look forward to seeing where things go for you.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Greggz said:


> IMO, don't use GH booster. Get some CaSO4 and MgSO4. You don't want or need the extra K, and you can adjust the ratio as you need to later. And if you continue with GH booster, do not disregard the K being added, and don't add more from K2SO4.


Already got 'em, the booster is mixed from scratch with Roy's recipe earlier in the thread. It's those plus K2SO4. 




Greggz said:


> Like mentioned above, I would get closer to Ca 30 ppm and Mg 10 or 15 ppm.


So you would recommend just dosing gypsum/epsom salts to that level as the baseline?

Do you know offhand what GH that adds? (My tap water is super soft, like 1-2 dGH.)



Greggz said:


> NO3 and PO4 are standard EI. Hard to say what is right, much depends on your plant mass and mix of plants. Do you have a recent picture? In general, EI assumes a pretty well planted tank and high light. If you are low on plants, get more. Much easier to get started with more plant mass.


I'll post a pic later tonight. I don't have as much mass as I know I should, and less than I had a few months ago. Basically most of what I added melted over the last 6 months. (Except _pogostemon stellatus octopus_. That stuff is hardy.)



Greggz said:


> Do not add any additional K from K2SO4. And 0.5 Fe is way off. Rotalabutterfly changed it to 0.2 a while back. I don't know why Zorfox didn't. CSM+B has it's own issues. If you are going to use it, I would make a solution so that you are not measuring small dry amounts. And depending on your pH, it may not be a very good choice for Fe.


What would you recommend for micros instead of CSM+B? (I do have Flourish Comprehensive on hand, always happy to buy more bulk dry chems too.)

Oh, pH is approx 7.6 to 6.6 with the CO2 on. 



Greggz said:


> Now all that being said, IMO more important are light level, CO2, and maintenance. What light are you running now? Any idea of PAR? How long are lights on? Keep in mind too little PAR can be a problem just like too much.


It is a Fluval LED 2.0, 45 PAR at the gravel, which is 23" down. Tall tank. Light time is 5 hours plus a 15 min sunrise and sunset. And I _am_ wondering if that is too little. 



Greggz said:


> Do you have a good accurate measure of degassed pH? What pH drop are you targeting?


pH is approx 7.6-7.7 degassed, and I have it down to about 6.6-6.7 with the gas on. At 4-5 dKH I am at approx 30 PPM CO2 at pH 6.6. BUT... it takes a long time for the tank to take up the gas. I start the gas 2.5 hrs before lights on, but at that time I am only to about 20 PPM, and I don't hit 30 PPM for a couple more hours. So of the 5 hours of full light, the first 2 are ~20 PPM and the last 3 are ~30 PPM. 

I have resolved to get a reactor and put it inline with the canister filter. I don't think my ceramic diffuser on the canister intake is efficient enough. (and I do see the filter burp a lot.)



Greggz said:


> Keeping up on water changes? Cleaning filters? Removing any dead or decaying plant matter? Vacuuming substrate? In general, keeping things uber clean?


In general, yes, except for when I fell off the wagon recently. 

Here's how my last attempt at revitalizing the tank went: following the advice here and keeping things clean, it took about 6 months to kill most of the plants. 



Greggz said:


> If light, CO2, and maintenance are dialed in, you have a lot more leeway with ferts. If you don't have light, CO2, and maintenance dialed in, adjusting ferts will have little impact.


That makes sense. 

It is hard to draw firm conclusions but what little I am sure of is this: I need more plant mass, and with the mass I have now, if I fertilize at "standard" EI levels, I quickly get diatoms and even cyano. 



Greggz said:


> Have you checked out the Share Your Dosing thread? Lot's of folks sharing their dosing so you can get an idea of what others are doing. Pay attention to the PAR and pH drop. You will notice a pattern pretty quick.


That is new to me, I will check it out!



Greggz said:


> Good luck and look forward to seeing where things go for you.


Thank you kindly, folks like you and Roy make me willing to keep at this. I have a number of nerdy technical hobbies and have really only struggled with this one!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Do you have any tanks you are following that you would like to emulate? Trying to get an idea of what your goals are?

Because here's the deal. This hobby can be fairly simple (low light/low tech) or fairly complicated (high light/high tech). 

If your end goal is a showy high tech underwater garden, then you need to optimize each of the topics discussed above. Have you read any journals here? I would find ones that are similar to your goals, and study their methods.

I think you will find that the most successful tanks here have something in common. They spend a good deal of time getting lighting/CO2/ferts and maintenance just right. 

Now as to above, 30 ppm Ca and 10 ppm Mg is just under 7 GH (which you could calculate from Rotalabutterfly). 

I would not add K2SO4 to the Ca:Mg.

More plant mass will make everything else easier.

45 PAR is medium/low light. Most stems would like more light than that. And a single LED over your tank is probably very poor coverage side to side and front to back. LED's are very directional, and most of the PAR is directly below the light. You might have VERY low light when off center. If you are interested in testing your PAR, PM me. 

Getting CO2 to the right level before lights come on is important. And a 1.0 drop may not be ideal. Here is a link to the Share Your Dosing thread. See what others are doing.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1288329-share-your-dosing-thread.html#post11178275

If you really want to succeed, I would take some time to study some folks that are successful. Like I said, the really good tanks here (and there are many!) don't happen by accident. There is a great deal of attention paid to every detail.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Better late than never, below is a current photo. 

I noticed that even with approx 1/2 an EI dose, the water gets cloudy over the course of a week. I am pretty sure that I am over-dosing for the amount of plant mass that I currently have, because of that and other surface algae tht pops up. So I will cut dosing back some until I grow or buy more plants. 

Starting with today's water change I am going to try @Greggz's advice to target 10 ppm Mg and 30 ppm Ca, and cut out the K dose with the water change additions. It will take a little while to get there since I am adding the dosing to the water change volume only. 

Because I am having a hard time getting my CO2 up quickly, I have resolved to plumb in a more efficient reactor, too.

Greggz, I was able to check PAR levels all over the substrate with my club meter. It ranges from about 41 in the dark corners to 45 right under the light, which doesn't seem like a bad variation. (I can squeeze out a few more units if I turn the unit up from its default color mix to all LED colors being on max.)

I'll study other discussions to see if I can find tanks I want to emulate. Honestly, I would be pleased growing anything more interesting than Java fern that wasn't covered in brown slime.  I have a couple of truly low-light tanks loaded with Java fern, water sprite, and anacharis that do fine--no ferts, no CO2, and nuisance algae problems. But in the big tank, I want something a bit more interesting.

Buying more light is fine too, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. Seems like I should be able to find balance with the gear I have now.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

It's been quite a while since my last update. During that time I had an almost total plant die-off. Plants would _grow_ with what I was doing before, but based on the amount of leaves they shed, they were very unhealthy. Eventually, they lost the battle and died off. I had naked stems. 

I did still keep some val alive and one sad _crypt wendtii_, which I have had for, no joke, more than 10 years. It's never been more than a couple inches tall, hah. I also kept a _Nymphoides hydrophylla_ that @Seattle_Aquarist gave me a while back. It has never been too pretty, but it is hanging in there. 

After the last great die-off, I was unsure that my CO2 levels were good, or were coming up to speed fast enough. I installed a Max Mix reactor and got a new probe for my Pinpoint pH meter. Between pH and a drop checker I have been better able to tune my CO2 levels and think I am closer to the correct range. 

But even with the gas coming on _3 hours_ before the lights, I am not sure I am getting enough CO2 in the water at the start of the photoperiod. If I turn up the gas enough to do that, it seems like I will have _too much CO2_ before the lights go off. I am still tinkering with that. Despite having instruments, I am finding the CO2 very hard to tune. If I get the pH low enough at lights on, it seems like it is going to drop too low for the fish before the end of the photoperiod. 

Well, after I got the Max Mix and got the CO2 levels better, if not perfect, I got some more plants--thanks fish club!--rethought my fertilizer regime, and started over. 

This time I used more fertilizer, 100% of the Estimative Index method, instead of the tiny fractions I tried before. This was good and bad. The plants did do better, but they were not consuming enough of the nutrients and even with weekly water changes I saw my fish suffering from high NO3 levels. 

I started testing NO3 routinely to make sure I wasn't over-doing it. At this point I realized the tank has something like 6 PPM NO3 naturally. Maybe I am overfeeding? 

For the last few weeks, I have been keeping NO3 at about 6-10 PPM and PO4 at about 1-2 PPM. (K I am dosing at EI levels and don't know the actual number yet. Same with micros.)

It was at this point that the diatoms showed up. 

The plants seem pretty happy, based on how few leaves they shed... and they do grow... I have even grown water sprite now, which in the past always melted immediately in this tank. So I think more ferts and CO2 have helped. But I have a serious diatom problem lately... and now I am getting cyano on the gravel, too. 

PAR at the gravel is about 45. Middle of the tank, 90. Top of the tank, it is about 200. I have an extra THREE powerheads in the tank beyond the filter return. Circulation should be good! 

I know I am closer to a successful algae-free tank since at least the plants are healthier now. They don't fall apart when I touch them. But I am stumped about how to handle the diatoms and cyanobacteria. There's actually a film of diatoms on the top of the water. The diatoms are SUPER happy. And the cyano is back despite high circulation and what _seems_ like a _lot_ of CO2. 

*Typical water parameters:*

Hardness:
4 dKH (via bicarbonate)

About 7 dGH from:
30 PPM Ca (via gypsum)
10 PPM Mg (via Epsom salts)

Macros:
6.4 PPM NO3 (current actual level)
1.25 PPM PO4 (current actual level)
K not exactly sure, but 3x EI doses of 7.5 PPM per week

Micros:
9 mL Flourish Comprehensive 3x/week
1/4 tsp CSM+B 3x/week

*What's next?*
I know my NO3 is low compared to many others including @Greggz. I guess I will try getting the tank to 20-30 PPM at the start of the week and not doing daily dosing?

If I shouldn't be using CSM+B for micros, what should I be using? And per the RB calculator I guess I am using 2x as much as I should be per Zorfox. 

Well, it's a little progress, anyway. Maybe in another 15 years I will be able to keep something alive!

Current picture: all the plants should be green, the brown is diatoms and they grow visibly every single day.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @Cyano,

When I have a tank get 'out of whack' I do two (2) 50% water changes back-to-back (24 to 48 hours apart) and then go back to the parameters I was using when the plants were growing well; especially the photoperiod, light intensity, and fertilizer dosing. I find that usually helps me get a tank 'back on track' and then I tweak it as needed. Glad you found some plants you liked at our last monthly auction! -Roy


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

This tank has never been in whack. 

I am starting by re-assessing my CO2 levels completely--recalibrated the meters, degassing the water, etc.


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## Cyano (Jul 8, 2018)

Finally some good news, maybe! The tank is looking better than ever and more importantly, I think it is stable or improving. 

In my last post I had growing plants, but everything was getting slimed with diatoms. There was no way to keep on top of them. The diatoms were so happy that they were _pearling_, and the surface of the water even looked dusty. There was even a patch of cyano on the gravel, despite being in an area with current. 

I decided to first re-verify my CO2 levels. With my Max Mix I knew I was not short on CO2 dissolving power, so it was just a matter of finding the right rate and time settings. Long story short, I have a pH drop of ~1.2 by lights on and it hits ~1.3 a little later, and stays there for the rest of the photoperiod. In this tank, the KH/pH/CO2 chart appears to be roughly correct if I add up all the evidence including a couple of instances of unhappy over-gassed fish, and I am now pretty sure that I am in the 25-35 PPM range while the lights are on. (I am also pretty sure that this was the case in my last run too, but other things were amiss.)

Then it was time to, once again, think about fertilizer. I knew I had it all wrong but wasn't sure what the problem was, exactly. 

In the past I have tried "low light" and "medium light" Estimative Index style routines and it has never worked. I always had a slow accumulation of various kinds of algae, and while the plants grew, they were very unhealthy, eventually shedding enough leaves to die entirely. 

This time, I decided to take a more simple approach: after the weekly water change, get all the ferts into the middle of the full-strength EI-recommended PPM ranges, and then _don't mess with it_. This does require NO3 and PO4 tests after which I calculate the right amount to add to get back to the target. K I haven't been testing for, just adding EI-style.

Well, so far this seems to be working well. The diatoms stopped growing and started receding after just one week of that routine. The cyano started to disappear, too. 

I added some otos which I am sure helped the diatom situation, but 3 weeks in I have no signs of diatom growth in places that would have had thick coats before, and no cyano at all. A few otos can't eat that much and nothing eats cyano. They are slowly making their way through the diatoms that remain on the lower, shaded leaves. 

The plants are looking pretty OK. They are not growing as fast as I have had plants grow before, not sure why, but you can tell by touching them that they are more healthy than in the past. They don't break apart at the touch, and there are fewer dropped leaves than in the past. 

I also have finally been able to grow water sprite, which always died in just a couple of weeks before. Yeah, I know. Not being able to grow water sprite seems weird but it would melt in a couple of weeks even sitting in PAR45 light with some ferts. Same lights, but much more fertilizer, and it is relatively happy. 

I am sure that I can do everything better or smarter, but finally, it feels like things are at least in the right ballpark. I haven't even had to clean the glass in 2 weeks, there is only now a little GDA visible. It is a remarkable change. 

I would like to be able to stop testing NO3/PO4 all the time but I am still getting a handle on this tank's rhythm. I do seem to have NO3 naturally climb about 5 PPM over the week, maybe I am overfeeding? So I shoot for 15-20 PPM after the water change, and if it rises a little over the week, it is still OK. 

Real progress finally? 

Now if only I could grow some nice low-laying plants... 

Thanks again to @Seattle_Aquarist and @Greggz and everyone else on the thread.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Cyano said:


> I added some otos which I am sure helped the diatom situation, but 3 weeks in I have no signs of diatom growth in places that would have had thick coats before, and no cyano at all. A few otos can't eat that much and nothing eats cyano. They are slowly making their way through the diatoms that remain on the lower, shaded leaves.


Hi @Cyano

Glad to hear you are back on track. Otos are our friends, especially here in the Northwest where I believe are soft water encourages diatom growth. Bet those Otos of yours have nice fat bellys - it is amazing how much diatoms those guys can eat. Once you run out of diatoms an piece of algae wafer or blanched zucchini added after the lights go out will keep them fed. You are right, nothing I have found will eat cyanobacteria.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Cyano, thank you for sharing your problems and your growth through experience with us. This is an encouraging story!

Your tank looks great, and I look forward to reading about your attempts to grow non-stem plants.

And keep your seat belt on so you don't fall off that maintenance wagon again.


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