# top soil



## kingfish92 (Aug 18, 2008)

can natural top soil grow and sustain those very hard to keep plants like rotala macandra or some other hard to keep plants, i do currently have a carpet of drawf hairgrass growing great on it but im not sure if its good enough for other plants


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You can use soil in a planted tank, but it tends to be a bit more work to make sure you get the right kind and prepare it correctly... I wouldn't try adding it to an already started tank unless you plant to completely start over.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

You should look into Aaron T's mineralized soil substrate.
I think its a great idea, but it does take some preparation and time.

Regards, Orlando


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

I plan to do exactly what aaron's done.. it is some work but the rewards are awesome! check out lookinforoselines tank.. the same setup.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Guys... the OP HAS soil already... wants to know what will grow in it.


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## kingfish92 (Aug 18, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> Guys... the OP HAS soil already... wants to know what will grow in it.


exactly


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

yes it will.. we are saying to look at aaron's tank to see the results. you can grow the really hard to keep plants with this as a substrate when using high lighting and injecting co2. so yes you can.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

are you dosing ferts?


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

You shouldn't dose ferts in a mineralized soil tank.

I'm testing two of the plants I was told couldn't grow well in soil tanks right now (Blyxa, and Erio type 2). One is spotty but growing (Erio), one is doing great (Blyxa).

I absolutely slaughtered Ludwigia Pantanal, but so have half the people I know who tried it, in a multitude of tank styles. 

For the most part - yes, you can keep almost all plants, and the substrate honestly outperforms every other thing I've tried, by a good margin. The most dedicated water column feeders will be touch and go - essentially if it doesn't have roots, and isn't easy to make it grow roots, and is a delicate plant, say, "rut row".


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Seriously... HE DOES NOT HAVE MINERALIZED SOIL. HE HAS TOP SOIL. IT IS IN A TANK THAT IS ALREADY RUNNING.


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

Easy there fella, sheesh. I *think* I comprehend.

Seriously... they are all mineralized in the end, and you shouldn't be dosing a soil tank.  

The big difference is some dolomite and potash - the potash burns out in a few months, the dolomite is simply to control water acidity. Mineralizing soil simply accelerates the protien and excess nutrient burn in the soil "system" - it happens in your tank over time regardless though.

In the end, we are running extremely similar systems. I shared my experiences with soil in the bottom of my tank. Capiche? If not, feel free to post more screaming posts over umm, not real sure what.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Given the poster's question, the advice would be to do many water changes, frequently, like every other day if the top soil was place in there recently.

If the top soil is 3-8 week or more old, then you can relax.

Sediment vs water column:
Plants can do both, I know of no plant that cannot take nutrients from the water column. A few cannot take nutrients from the sediment and they lack roots.

However, adding nutrients to both locations, especially when you want to address wimpy plants that die easily for most folks, is the wiser approach.
This way you get more out of both locations.

So add ferts to the water column and the sediment.

As far as pantanal, R macrandra etc, these have long been grown just fine in plain sand and good water column nutrients, folks have more trouble with CO2, not nutrients than anything(95% maybe more of the issues stem from poor use of CO2/too much light).

Nutrients are easy, add ferts consistently(this is the harder part for folks especially when they have poor CO2 and high light) to both locations over a wide range, as long as they are consistent, and add a nutrient rich sediment. 

This gives you the best chance of success and the bases are covered.
Do not fall for that "do not dose the water column" advice.
You do not gain anything in doing so and only force slower growth(which is not what you want in the first, the plants are doing poorly if you are asking and one of the ironic claims) and more limitation, as well as more draw and less life out of the sediment.

I am always scratching my head when folks ask what is limiting in their tanks and they suggest not adding ferts.
What?:eek5: If you want less growth, use less light.

You might not need to add ferts in your tank with lower light and good CO2, however, other folks might have more light and less CO2 and that, not the nutrients, is much more likely the issue.
This is going to be more true with wimpy plants.

Also, there's little consistency in the type of soil: % organic matter, N and P, clay content, which as anyone could guess, _would influence growth. 
_ This does not matter if it's soil, loam, ADA aqua soil etc or any macro rich sediment. So it's wise to have a back up, the water column.
This way you can rule out nutrients, cover all the bases and hedge the bets you are providing adequate nutrients everywhere.

From there, you can focus on CO2 and finally light to modulate rates of growth. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I have a few soil tanks.. When the plants look 'sad'.. I add K, Ca, and Mg into the water.. Nothing wrong with adding ferts.

And in the beginning, you might not need to change that much water like plantbrain mentioned. You just have to assess the tank. Every tank is different.

My tank had no issue from the start, So I changed the water whenever I feel like it. I only had issues with algae when I had to do 2 massive water changes due to parasites. I wasn't smart enough to lower the lights.


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## kingfish92 (Aug 18, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Given the poster's question, the advice would be to do many water changes, frequently, like every other day if the top soil was place in there recently.
> 
> If the top soil is 3-8 week or more old, then you can relax.
> 
> ...


so basically i can grow anything, its just that i would need the proper nutrients, lights, and co2

oh here are the specs of my tank if it matters
20 gallon tank
jebo 828 canister filter
2x40 watts from shoplights
diy co2 about 1 bubble per second +/- with 100% diffusion
normal topsoil as substrate
i am dosing ferts too, seachem flourish 2x a week

and my hair grass is growing great


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

> Sediment vs water column:
> Plants can do both, I know of no plant that cannot take nutrients from the water column. A few cannot take nutrients from the sediment and they lack roots.


Exactly what I said. Some plants that are heavy water column feeders tend to do poorly or outright die.





> Nutrients are easy, add ferts consistently(this is the harder part for folks especially when they have poor CO2 and high light) to both locations over a wide range, as long as they are consistent, and add a nutrient rich sediment.
> 
> This gives you the best chance of success and the bases are covered.
> Do not fall for that "do not dose the water column" advice.
> ...


To each their own I guess. I don't have to dose, I don't have to do 50% weekly water changes, and my tank is stable and runs great. I've seen what happened to others who tried to start dosing soil tanks, it wasn't pretty. Maybe all of them did something wrong, dunno.

What I "gain", though, is not having the absolute PITA of huge unnecessary water changes and sizable expenditures on unneeded fertilizers. I don't need to flush 4,500 gallons of water down the drain just to reset fertilizer every week, that is a rather big plus to me.  

I don't see slow growth or any of that kind of thing you mentioned - if anything, I need to figure out how to slow it down more than it already is. Crypts go absolutely insane, stems like hygros and pogostemon grow 20" in a couple of weeks, polygonums are growing well and flowering underwater, Downoi is taking hold and exploding. With no ferts!


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## Qckwzrd (Aug 13, 2008)

excuse the ignorants I can't seem to find topsoil but everyone has potting soil (homedepot, Kmart, Sears, hardware stores). Can I use potting soil? I've checked some bags and some dont list whats inside the potting soil.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

there's topsoil at homedepot. Just ask.
they usually add extra fertilizer in potting soil, that's why you shouldn't use it.

If you have to use potting soil, spread it out, and let it dry for a week and then add sand to thin it out and soak(make mud) it for a week.

You can use soil from the ground if you like.. Make sure it's from a clean source with no pollution and pesticides. I know that's hard to do in Brooklyn. Maybe get some from out in long Island


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> I know that's hard to do in Brooklyn. Maybe get some from out in long Island


HA! Try finding clean, unpoluted top soil in Long Island. My 2 years there tought me that the only thing dirtier than the air and water was the ground.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

over_stocked said:


> HA! Try finding clean, unpoluted top soil in Long Island. My 2 years there tought me that the only thing dirtier than the air and water was the ground.


There are nice, clean nature reserves & parks out in LI. I lived in brooklyn but worked out in Oyster Bay.. It was a long commute but good to get away from the city during the summers.


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

Qckwzrd said:


> excuse the ignorants I can't seem to find topsoil but everyone has potting soil (homedepot, Kmart, Sears, hardware stores). Can I use potting soil? I've checked some bags and some dont list whats inside the potting soil.


White and red bags (locally) at Home Depot, the ones that are like $1.29. Cheapest of the cheap topsoil. It'll be on the pallets next to all those garden mix fertilized soils.


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## Qckwzrd (Aug 13, 2008)

I'll try again, thanx guys. Got the block of red clay, next is the Potash. I'll be hunting all over this big City for supplies  This will be my first planted tank, trying to do it right!


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

The topsoil at my Home Depot is nothing but organic matter. Hummus, manure, leaves, peat, etc... I'm having a VERY hard time finding pure potting soil. So far I've tried Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, Kmart, Ace, and a few farm supplies.

I googled "topsoil" and find that gardners are complaining of the same problem. Evidently pure topsoil can be found at some local nurseries. I'm hitting the nursery trail tomorrow to see if I have better luck.

I'm wishing I was in Texas so I could dig some good Ellis County black land. The stuff we have here is terrible.


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

I get my topsoil from Lowe's, never found exactly what I needed from HD. At Lowe's (at least here) it comes in a blue and white bag for $1.49.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

cah925 said:


> I get my topsoil from Lowe's, never found exactly what I needed from HD. At Lowe's (at least here) it comes in a blue and white bag for $1.49.


My Lowes doesn't carry that one.

Only thing every one around here carries is the Timberline stuff.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I found a nice one from HD... It's organic, made from rice husks. You can always thin out the heavy organic top soil by skimming out any barks & twigs and adding sand and gravel into it in the mineralizing process. 

You're making it too complicated. Just stay away from mulch & manure.. You'll be fine.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

From the looks of the stuff I've seen, if I skimmed out the bark and twigs, there wouldn't be much left.

I called my father who is an avid gardener. He said the best top soil that actually has the most topsoil is... get this... bags labeled "manure" not "topsoil". He says there is actually very little manure in it. He grew up on a farm and knows how cow manure looks and smells when mixed with soil. The odor of manure is very faint in the "Manure" bags. According to him, if I could clean the soil of the manure, that would work. How would one go about cleaning manure? It sounds a bit risky to me. Frankly, in my hunt for topsoil, I didn't see any bags marked "Manure" anyway.

He also pointed out to me that cheap top soil contains different amounts of clay/nutrients/metals depending upon where it was dug. He felt it absolutely silly that I was trying to find pure top soil with a specific content that I could attain 5-10% clay without a lab to sort it all out since no brand will be the same and will even vary from bag to bag even if I could find a bag labeled "pure top soil". He suggested that if I wanted pure top soil to just go dig it and sterilize it myself, preferably a sandy loam mixed with river silt and add the dolomite and potash to that after "hardening" it by the wet/dry routine. He also suggested I call my uncle who is a retired chemist for a sewage treatment plant about manure removal.

I called my uncle and asked him how to remove the manure. He got quite a kick out of my wanting to clean bags labeled "MANURE", but said that repeated washing with the hose and churning would wash the manure out of the soil and possibly a chlorine treatment with yet another round of churning/washing to remove the chlorine. I have a feeling that I am going to be the talk of the family Christmas dinner that I am not going to make this year. I'm suddenly not so disappointed to not be going. LOL

With that said, the only thing my father and my uncle know about fish is how to catch, filet, and fry them.  

Hopefully the nurseries will have some "topsoil" without all the junk in them that I can just use without worry, or at least some that is more soil than junk.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

michu said:


> From the looks of the stuff I've seen, if I skimmed out the bark and twigs, there wouldn't be much left.
> 
> I called my father who is an avid gardener. He said the best top soil that actually has the most topsoil is... get this... bags labeled "manure" not "topsoil". He says there is actually very little manure in it. He grew up on a farm and knows how cow manure looks and smells when mixed with soil. The odor of manure is very faint in the "Manure" bags. According to him, if I could clean the soil of the manure, that would work. How would one go about cleaning manure? It sounds a bit risky to me. Frankly, in my hunt for topsoil, I didn't see any bags marked "Manure" anyway.
> 
> ...


To save yourself a lot of time, frustration and aggravation, why not just purchase a mineralized topsoil substrate kt from Torpedobarb and use that instead. It makes use of the proper topsoil. 

Otherwise, you can rinse and dry the topsoil over many(I would say at least 12 soak and dry cycles) soak and dry cycles before using it to avoid problems,

The Greenhouses/Nurseries I phoned around in my area basically told me the same thing: Good luck trying to get a 100% free manure free topsoil. They told me that the most prized topsoils were the ones with manure in them.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

He's done until summer and I need enough for a 150 gallon tank.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

My tap water is soft with a ph of 6.8. I intend to keep angels/discus. Am I correct in thinking that I do not need the dolomite?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the dolomite or any calcium carbonate is for keeping the substrate from going too acidic & provide calcium & or Magnesium for the plants.. It shouldn't affect the water column too much.

my topsoil tank's ph is 6. My tap is 7.4. And I have limestone in the substrate.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The dolomite is for the soil not the water column. You can take any bag of soil and run it through the process and get a mineralized soil, top soil just gets you there faster because you are starting closer to the end product. Cheap top soil also is not amended with anything to keep it cheap. Potting soil tends to have lots of stuff added that will float, or take a longer time to convert, added to it. Remember, you aren't washing the soil the same way you wash gravel. Sift it when it is dry and you will get rid of most of the stuff you don't want. Wet it thoroughly and skim the floating crap away, but don't go crazy trying to rinse it.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> the dolomite or any calcium carbonate is for keeping the substrate from going too acidic & provide calcium & or Magnesium for the plants.. It shouldn't affect the water column too much.
> 
> my topsoil tank's ph is 6. My tap is 7.4. And I have limestone in the substrate.


Thanks a bunch. I'll definitely get the dolomite then.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> The dolomite is for the soil not the water column. You can take any bag of soil and run it through the process and get a mineralized soil, top soil just gets you there faster because you are starting closer to the end product. Cheap top soil also is not amended with anything to keep it cheap. Potting soil tends to have lots of stuff added that will float, or take a longer time to convert, added to it. Remember, you aren't washing the soil the same way you wash gravel. Sift it when it is dry and you will get rid of most of the stuff you don't want. Wet it thoroughly and skim the floating crap away, but don't go crazy trying to rinse it.


All the topsoil I find is full of "floating crap". Even the cheap. Just get it anyway and hope I yield > than 10% soil? I don't relish the thought of buying 50 bags and sifting to yield 5 bags of soil (the amount I am guessing that I'll need).


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