# Finally! Take 3 (pg15 or 16)!



## Green Leaf Aquariums

What about a variety of crypts and anubias?


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## skabooya

Yes i do want to add some crypt windetti red and green and possibly balanase. 
Anubias nana would be nice but they are hard to find around here and expensive. Do they spread?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Crypts yes. Anubias has a rhizome root system and kinda spreads but very slow.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ..
> Any other ideas?..


I don't know if you have see this list and if some of those plants are available but it is a really good list of low light plants that you might find helpful.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/56042-excellent-list-low-light-plants.html


Also, I have tried aquariumplants.com grow your own bulbs and they seem to grow really well in low light as well as my high light tanks. The only thing is that they grow like weeds so you have to keep them pruned.
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Grow_Your_Own_Bulbs_s/29.htm

I have also had a lot of success with their anubias nana plants and I found that I could not get anything locally that was as healthy and cheap as the anubias that I got from them.
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Nana_Anubias_barteri_v_Nana_p/hf542.htm

Don't order stem plants from Aquairumplants. They don't seem to survive shipment. Mine never did no many how many times I ordered from them.


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## skabooya

Thank you. 
Yes i know about the low light list but what wpg are those for. Other lists are for 2wpg or 2.5 which really isint in my category. 
Most of the plants on your list will do fine in my range but there are others i am wondering about.

Good to know about the stem plants. Thank you. So bulbs and rhizomes plants would be fine to order from them then.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ..Good to know about the stem plants. Thank you. So bulbs and rhizomes plants would be fine to order from them then.


Yes, my experience has been positive with ordering bulbs and rhizome. The anubias all had lush green leaves with no algae, the root ball had good healthy growth and the rhizome was healthy. The other one that I have had success with is their java ferns(really healthy, survived shipment, no algae). I just recently used their Java Fern Mat in a tank that I set up.
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Java_Fern_Microsorium_pteropus_p/mi575.htm

In this tank that I set up and so far it is doing well(however, this is a high light high tech tank). The java fern mat is behind the Buddha in this tank. 









The java fern and anubias in the 3 gallon low tech nano tank below that I set up for my office are from aquariumplants. While this picture is outdated, the plants really filled in within 2 months, incuding the anubias, and the java fern grew many baby plantlets.


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## skabooya

you dont have vals (nana) or sag on your list. Other sourses ive read says that these plants are fine in low light. Is it true or am I just fooling myself.
If these two are good in low light tanks then which one should i get for a background. Tall narrow and grassy is what im looking for.


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## skabooya

PS. Substrate should come TOMORROW!!! YAY!!!


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> you dont have vals (nana) or sag on your list. Other sourses ive read says that these plants are fine in low light. Is it true or am I just fooling myself.
> If these two are good in low light tanks then which one should i get for a background. Tall narrow and grassy is what im looking for.


I am sorry, I should have given credit for the list to James From Cali who posted and updated it. This is James updated list, in which he lists Vals and Sag. Both vals and sag are excellent for low light plants and some people have successfully grown beautiful vals in nothing but kitty litter from what I have seen. The only reason that I don't use them in my low tech tanks is the possibility that they may be sensitive to the effects of Fluorish Excel which I dose to prevent algae and provide carbon to the plants. Some say Excel does not negatively effect vals and others say that it does. I would rather not chance it, so I stay away from vals.

Here is James updated list, it is also posted at the end of the link I provided.
FERNS & MOSSES
Marimo Ball- Aegagropila linnaei
African Water Fern - Bolbitis heudelotii
Watersprite - Ceratopteris thalictroides
Pheonix Moss - Fissidens fontanus
Zipper Moss - Fissidens zippelianus
Willow Moss - Fontinalis antipyretica
Philippine Java Fern - Microsorum pteropus 'Philippine'
Java Fern - Microsorum pteropus
Red Java fern - Microsorum pteropus "red"
Windelov Java Fern - Microsorum pteropus 'Windelov'
Narrow Leaf Java Fern - Microsorum pteropus v. 'narrow leaf'
Pellia - Monosolenium tenerum
Mini Pellia - Riccardia chamedryfolia
Riccia - Riccia fluitans
Round Pellia - Süßwassertang
Flame Moss - Taxiphyllum alternans
Java Moss - Taxiphyllum barbieri
Peacock Moss - Taxiphyllum sp. 'peacock'
Taiwan Moss - Taxiphyllum sp.
Singapore Moss - Vesicularia dubyana
Christmas Moss - Vesicularia montagnei
Erect Moss - Vesicularia reticulata

STEM PLANTS
Waterwheel Plant - Aldrovanda vesiculosa
Bacopa - Bacopa caroliniana
Moneywort - Bocapa monnieri
Hornwort - Ceratophylum demersum
Watersprite - Ceratopteris thalictroides
Anacharis - Egeria densa
American Waterweed- Elodea canadensis
HC- Hemianthus callitrichoides
Stargrass - Heteranthera zosterifolia
Brazilian Pennywort - Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Water Pennywort - Hydrocotyle ranunculoides
Ceylon Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma 'Ceylon'
Giant Hygro - Hygrophila corymbosa
Water Wisteria - Hygrophila difformis
Green Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma
Sunset Hygro - Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig'
Dwarf Ambulia - Limnophila sessiliflora
Red Ludwigia- Ludwigia repens
Parrots Feather - Myriophyllum aquaticum
Guppy Grass - Najas guadalupensis
Downoi - Pogostemon helferi
Rotala Indica - Rotala indica
Rotala Rotundifolia - Rotala rotundifolia
Rotala Rotundifolia sp. Green - Rotala rotundifolia sp. 'Green'

FLOATERS
Hornwort - Ceratophylum demersum
Watersprite - Ceratopteris thalictroides
Anacharis - Egeria densa
Brazilian Pennywort - Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Water Pennywort- Hydrocotyle ranunculoides
Duckweed - Lemna minor
Parrots Feather - Myriophyllum aquaticum
Red Root Floater - Phyllanthus fluitans
Riccia - Riccia fluitans
Giant Slavinia - Salvinia molesta

CRYPTOCORYNE
Crypt Affinis - Cryptocoryne affinis
Crypt Aponogetifolia - Cryptocoryne aponogetifolia
Crypt Balansae - Cryptocoryne balansae
Crypt Becketii - Cryptcoryne becketii
Crypt Lutea - Cryptocoryne lutea
Micro Crypt - Cryptocoryne petchii
Pygmy Crypt - Cryptocoryne pygmaea
Crypt retrospiralis - Cryptocoryne retrospiralis
Crypt spiralis - Cryptocoryne spiralis
Crypt Walkeri - Cryptocoryne walkeri
Crypt Wendtii - Cryptocoryne wendtii
Crypt Willisi - Cryptocoryne willisi

ANUBIAS
Anubias barteri - Anubias barteri
Anubias barteri 'marble' - Anubias barteri 'marble'
Coffee leaf anubias - Anubias barteri v. 'coffeefolia'
Anubias barteri v. 'glabra' - Anubias barteri v. 'glabra'
Golden nana - Anubias barteri v. 'nana golden'
Anubias nana - Anubias barteri v. 'nana'
Narrow leaf nana - Anubias barteri v. 'nana narrow leaf'
Petite nana - Anubias barteri v. nana 'petite'
Hastifolia - Anubias hastifolia
Barteri Round Leaf - Anubias barteri v. ‘Round Leaf’
Gigantea - Anubias gigantea
Congensis - Anubias congensis
Lanceolota - Anubias lanceolota
Gracilis - Anubias gracilis
Anubias Barteri v Angustifolia - Anubias barteri v angustifolia
Caladiifolia -Anubias barteri v Caladiifolia
Anubias Afzelli - Anubias afzelli

SWORD PLANTS
Amazon Sword - Echinodorus amazonicus
Ruffle Sword - Echinodorus major
Melon Sword - Echinodorus osiris
Tropica Sword - Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica'
Red Flame Sword - Echinodorus 'Red Special'
Pygmy Chain Sword - Echnodorus tennelus
Uruguay Amazon Sword - Echinodorus uruguayensis

LILY'S
Lotus- Nymphaea pubescens
Tiger Lotus - Nymphaea zenkeri

GRASSES
Water Celery- Vallisneria americana
Contortion Val - Vallisneria asiatica
Vallisneria natans
Valliseneria rubra
Corkscrew Val - Vallisneria tortifolia
Dwarf Sag- Sagittaria subulata
Crinum calimistratum
Onion Plant - Crinum thaianum
Micro Sword - Lilaeopsis braziliensis
Crinum aquatica

APONOGETONS
Aponogeton ulvaceous
Aponogeton bouvianus
Aponogeton crispus
Aponogeton elongatus
Aponogeton undulatus
Rigidifolius - Aponogeton rigidifolius

CLOVERS
Water Clover - Mariselia minuta
Marsilea hirsuta
Four Leaf Clover - Mariselia quadrifolia

I hope you don't mind me asking, but was there a reason that you chose to go with Seachem Fluorite over Eco-Complete. Don't get me wrong, they are both great for growing plants, but for some reason the Eco-Complete tends to be more popular, so I was just curious. The only problem that I found with Fluorite was that it did not seem to hold down fine rooted stem plants like rotala indica and ludwiga repens too well.


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## dekstr

Awesome list! Thanks homer_simpson and james_from_cali for the list.

homer_simpson, for a second there, I thought you owned all the plants from the list lol.


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## skabooya

Lots of little reasons. Ive read about eco complete going bad after a while or contaminated bags (problem solved im sure), it was also slightly more expensive, it floats more readily than flourite (or so ive read), buffers water (which i dont need or want), difficult to clean (gravel syphon), it is also man made in my mind that is FAKE stuff.
All of these reasons are minor and can be worked around. Im sure its a great product and I was thinking about it for the fact that it was black.

I chose fluorite because its a natural baked clay that will absorb nutrients (that i inject into the tank) into itself thus holding and slowly releasing them back to the plants. I could not choose black because aquariumplants didnt have it in stock  (still said comming soon). It doesnt bother me too much because the regular colour looks more natural anyway.

I currently have inert black gravel in my other tanks and the grain size is large. I have a difficult time keeping my rotala indica and rondifolia as well as a few others planted because of the large grain size so im not expecting too much of a difference. I can always put a small marble or stone on the roots/stem of the plant I planted to help hold it down. I do it with stubborn plants and it works great. I can also plant extra deep which works well for some thin plants too.


Thank you for the updated list. Its great LOVE IT!
I cant imagine growing some of those plants in 1.1wpg. Would that be a list for 2wpg and under?
If so maybe there should be a category next to it for minimum light threshold for each plant?
Again its a wonderful list and I will definitely be using it.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ...Thank you for the updated list. Its great LOVE IT!
> I cant imagine growing some of those plants in 1.1wpg. Would that be a list for 2wpg and under?
> If so maybe there should be a category next to it for minimum light threshold for each plant?
> Again its a wonderful list and I will definitely be using it...


You're welcome, but all thanks and credit should really go to James From Cali who is the author of the list. James has more experience than I growing these in different light thresholds, so maybe he can chime in. I have heard some debates about whether or not some of these will grow below 2.0 watts per gallon. Some say yes and some say no and some say it can be done with c02 injection and or Excel supplementation in tanks below 2 watts per gallon.

Interesting about the Eco-Complete. I heard that they had a contaminated batch and the water chemistry issues are only temporary. One thing about Eco-Complete is that it is far more nutrient rich than fluorite. How that translates to plant growth is another story and I guess in a low light tank it probably would not matter. Everyone says that whether a substrate is nutrient rich or not does not matter but I have yet to see someone explain to me why a substrate like ADA Aquasoil gives such great plant growth even where people don't dose any water column ferts. The funny thing is that the same people that say that a nutrient dense substrate makes no difference are the same ones that say that ADA Aquasoil gives the best plant growth because it is so nutrient dense. Talk about a contradiction. This is the review I read about people who used Eco and I found it interesting. 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/12

Mind you many of these reviews were done prior to the discovery of the contaminated batch. 

Some of the contradictions that I read about with respect to people's experiences using different substrates is the reason I am attempting to test as many substrates as I can(time and space allowing) to see for myself if some of these things are true or not.

By the way, if you don't mind me asking, are the Jobes Plant Spikes that you are using the "16-2-6" ones for the "Lush Ferns and Palms." I ask only because I have some of these for a future project and was curious. Thanks


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## skabooya

That is an interesting thread. It looks like most of the reasons for choosing eco were colour and ease. The most common cons were compaction and leeching. Im gonna look for one of these about fluorite.

As for the wpg thing I guess when I start to specifically choose plants i am unsure about I will post here and see what people say.

I will be dosing excel here and there I wont be dependant on it. Also I will not have C02 in my tank. (just for more info )


I was staring at my empty tank earlier and I was really afraid of the exposed lights being so close to the top of what will be the water surface. The only thing protecting the wires are endcaps. Hagen waterhome manual says its fine but it really freaks me out. What about splash or condensation? Its a fully sealed top so it worries me. 
The lights were about 1.5 -2 inches from the top of the water surface. So I took the frame for the bottom of the tank (its an optional item with this tank so you can make it rimless) and I put it on the top to make a frame around the top of the tank (acting as a riser) and then I put the hood on top of that. The lights are now about 3-4 ? inches away from the waters surface but it still freaks me out. 

Any ideas on what i should do about this? I dont want to have to go out and buy a whole new lighting set up. I mentioned it to my husband once and it hurt him because he thought the gift he gave me wasent good enough. It took me all day to fix that problem.

So any ideas?


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## skabooya

Homer_Simpson said:


> By the way, if you don't mind me asking, are the Jobes Plant Spikes that you are using the "16-2-6" ones for the "Lush Ferns and Palms." I ask only because I have some of these for a future project and was curious. Thanks



And yes. Very cheap from walmart. I am still nervous about them because of the urea thing so instead of cutting it into 2 or 3 I cut them into 4's and 5's. Very teeny pieces but it works for a low tech tank.


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## James From Cali

skabooya said:


> Thank you for the updated list. Its great LOVE IT!
> I cant imagine growing some of those plants in 1.1wpg. Would that be a list for 2wpg and under?
> If so maybe there should be a category next to it for minimum light threshold for each plant?
> Again its a wonderful list and I will definitely be using it.


I can add that if you wish. I was thinking about doing that but many people had figured it was meant for anything 2wpg and down, definitely is too. I will add lighting requiremnets now


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## A Hill

My current 10g Black Diamond tank is considered "low tech" All I do is give top offs and flourish excel when I think about it during the day. It has the stock hood which is around 1.5wpg and it grows plants fine. This current scape has a large portion of the tank covered in vals that I bought labeled Italian vals. They're nice and narrow and look pretty good (would look better in a 15-18g but I used what I had at the time) 

From my experience the flourish hasn't killed the vals. It seemed to possible keep them from sending out a ton of runners but I can't confirm this because over time when the plants get established they throw out more runners anyways and I was dosing flourish much more regularly when the tank was first set up. 

Here is a picture of my 10g. This is also my journal of that tank. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp/42390-crs-tank-adventure-updated-12-20-a-3.html#post496541 

Good luck and don't worry too much about the light, if you're really worried maybe you can seal it off by using a piece of glass to top the back part of the tank.

-Andrew


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> That is an interesting thread. It looks like most of the reasons for choosing eco were colour and ease. The most common cons were compaction and leeching. Im gonna look for one of these about fluorite.
> 
> As for the wpg thing I guess when I start to specifically choose plants i am unsure about I will post here and see what people say.
> 
> I will be dosing excel here and there I wont be dependant on it. Also I will not have C02 in my tank. (just for more info )
> 
> 
> I was staring at my empty tank earlier and I was really afraid of the exposed lights being so close to the top of what will be the water surface. The only thing protecting the wires are endcaps. Hagen waterhome manual says its fine but it really freaks me out. What about splash or condensation? Its a fully sealed top so it worries me.
> The lights were about 1.5 -2 inches from the top of the water surface. So I took the frame for the bottom of the tank (its an optional item with this tank so you can make it rimless) and I put it on the top to make a frame around the top of the tank (acting as a riser) and then I put the hood on top of that. The lights are now about 3-4 ? inches away from the waters surface but it still freaks me out.
> 
> Any ideas on what i should do about this? I dont want to have to go out and buy a whole new lighting set up. I mentioned it to my husband once and it hurt him because he thought the gift he gave me wasent good enough. It took me all day to fix that problem.
> 
> So any ideas?


I don't have any experience with that type of tank, but to be quite honest with you, I would not worry too much about it if the Hagen waterhome manual says it is fine, I would trust that. Hagen is a pretty reputable company and although I could be wrong, I think that they would be pretty careful in designing their aquariums, including the electrical layout, so as not to put customers in danger. 

The urea in jobe sticks leeching ammonia and causing algae is another one of those things that I find interesting. Some people swear that its use will induce an algae bloom while others state that they have used them without problems. If you want to be totally safe, I would consider Seachem Fluorish Root Tabs. I bought some from a place called Pet Cetera for about $6 for a pack of 10. The Seachem Fluorish root tabs are highly talked about. This lady who set up a low light tank, uses Seachem Fluorish tabs in her low light tank and as you can see it is an absolutely beautiful tank. 
http://vickisaquaticplace.com/PlantsChapter1.html

She also has a really good link on how to wash the fluorite before use so it does not cloud your tank up too much and for too long. You might find this interesting.
http://vickisaquaticplace.com/fluorite.html

I like her tank so much that for my next low light tank project, with the spare 10 gallon I have lying around, I was thinking of setting up that type of tank with the only difference is the substrate(I would use either Soil Master Select capped over eco-complete or redsea flora base, one inch schultz aquatic soil capped with 2 inches flora base, black Seachem Fluorite Sand, or pool filter sand over Seachem root tabs).


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## Tabatha

I agree with Homer, in my first tank I used Flourite and found it a difficult planting medium. In my current tank, I used Eco-complete and although outrageously expensive, infinitely easier to plant in! It will be interesting to see how the plants grow in the Eco!

Do you find these two substrates equal in terms of growth, Homer?



Homer_Simpson said:


> I hope you don't mind me asking, but was there a reason that you chose to go with Seachem Fluorite over Eco-Complete. Don't get me wrong, they are both great for growing plants, but for some reason the Eco-Complete tends to be more popular, so I was just curious. The only problem that I found with Fluorite was that it did not seem to hold down fine rooted stem plants like rotala indica and ludwiga repens too well.


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## Homer_Simpson

Tabatha said:


> ...Do you find these two substrates equal in terms of growth, Homer?


I have a bag of Eco-Complete on standby and ready to test drive "when" I can find the space, lol . These are pictures of a 10 gallon tank that I used fluorite in. The biggest problem that I found was that I had a hard time keeping fine root stem plants like ambulia, rotala indica, ludwiga repens, and moneywort anchored down. I would always notice that within a few days of being planted(no matter how deep), the stems would always float to the top of the surface. Mind you the floating stems developed several side shoots and aerial roots. I eventually had to tear the tank down because of an out control snail problem plus I wanted to test Aquasoil II and needed to get rid of one tank to set that one up. Anyway here are pictures of plants growing in 10 gallon fluorite tank. Excuse the aquascaping, but this is a "test" tank and not a "show" tank.


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## skabooya

Ive been reading a bit more on fluorite and to correct this problem a mixture of sand is aparently a good thing. The sand will help to hold plant roots much better.

Oh I forgot the dimensions of my tank. Just for furthur reference 
31.5"L x 14"W x 17.5"H not including canopy with lights. Box says 32gals.

Im hoping for about 2-3 inches of substrate in the front and 4-5 inches in the back. Yes quite high for the back. I love the look of extreme sloped substrates but we will see how it goes with my substrate tomorrow... I hope it comes tomorrow 

This is the tank with the raiser on top. I think I am going to remove it again. That means the black strip on the top of the tank will be just one level instead of two. Oh and that smudge on the back will be wiped off so no problems and I will be getting new tubing for the filter set up so what you see in there is not the final look. 
That is one piece of driftwood I plan on putting in my tank. I am also strongly considering tearing out the other two in my 20gal to put in here. We will see.


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## Tabatha

I like your tank, it's a nice size, I also really like your driftwood!! Let us know how planting goes.


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## skabooya

It came it came my fluorite came! It feels like christmas!!! YAY SUPER YAY!

Im not used to its super small grain size wow. And its light... maybe thats because ive been working out lately I dunno.
Now i need to rince it eeek i need to find a strainer.

Im so excited!!!!!


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## James From Cali

Please post pics when set up. It looks like it will be a very nice tank.


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## bsmith

Have you thought about c.spiralis for your long skinny back ground plant? I haveit in my 29g and love it!!!

http://www.plantgeek.net/plant-76.htm


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## skabooya

Geez Ive been cleaning 1/2 bag of fluorite for quite a while now, must have done at least 20-25 rinces in a rubermaid bin with constant stiring and its still not comming clear. It will only stay slightly clear if i just let the water run hard and NOT stir it. Is that clean enough? Can i finally move on to the second half of my first bag? Or do i keep cleaning until water runs completely clear?


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## bsmith

skabooya said:


> Geez Ive been cleaning 1/2 bag of fluorite for quite a while now, must have done at least 20-25 rinces in a rubermaid bin with constant stiring and its still not comming clear. It will only stay slightly clear if i just let the water run hard and NOT stir it. Is that clean enough? Can i finally move on to the second half of my first bag? Or do i keep cleaning until water runs completely clear?


From what I have read it will never run completely clear.


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## skabooya

bsmith782 said:


> it will never run completely clear.


Lovely. 

I knew it was bad but sheesh!. This is BAD! I took pictures to see if what i have is normal or if i just got a very very very dirty bag.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Lovely.
> 
> I knew it was bad but sheesh!. This is BAD! I took pictures to see if what i have is normal or if i just got a very very very dirty bag.


It will eventually clear, but may take a few days even after you rinse it. This is what happened to me, but after about 3 days of using and replacing polyfibre floss in my filter and doing 50% water changes and using a strainer to fill replacement water, the cloudiness finally dissipated. This is the major complaint most people have about fluorite and a big reason why many use Eco-Complete over fluorite.


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## skabooya

I am now using a modified rex grigg method  It may not be as good but the cleaning is going by a lot faster with less effort on my part


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## Tabatha

Geeze, guess I was lucky, I rinsed it with a fine mesh strainer, probably for flower, and the water cleared within 2 or 3 hours. I rinsed till the water ran clear. Mind you, this was for a 8 gallon tank, not 30!


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## skabooya

BAH everyone keeps calling me so now im still on the first bag, i need to start dinner soon and i STILL HAVE 3 MORE BAGS TO GO!


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## skabooya

just to show how dirty this stuff is AND my modified method of washing this mud.

















excuese my hairy arms, Im pure bred portuguese born in Canada and I take after my dad


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## Tabatha

Keep rinsing girl, you'll get there! Good job


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## skabooya

Okay well finished cleaning the flourite and put it all in the tank. Filled up the tank and put in a real piece of wood and a fake log that I got as a present. Its not that pretty but meh it will make my family happy .
Stole the AC filter off my 20gal and threw it on my 32 with some filter floss aka polyester stuffing for pillows to help clear my water. Also threw in the dirty sponge from the AC to help seed the tank.
Put in some aqua plus water conditioner turned on the heater (which is a flippin pain) I have no idea how im going to make it stay put in the water. The suction cups dont work and just letting the chord hang over the tank doesnt work either so im currently balancing it on some wood so the water doesnt go over the max water line.
The new tubing for my fluval was a pain in the a**. My husband came up to help me set the thing up and the stupid thing didnt want to fit under my cabinet. With a few choice words and some acrobatics we finally managed to make it fit and without any kinks in the tubing. YAY! Taking a break from it though I bet my heart is ready to explode from the frustration with that filter. I probably wont fill it and hook it up until tomorrow. I will just let the AC and stuffing do its work for tonight.
The lfs had NO low light plants in. What they did have were high light expenisve plants. There is no way i am going to pay 13.99 for each plant. Ill see what i can get from the BC forum and ordering online.


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## skabooya

Oh forgot. Couldnt find background either and posterboard and foam board was too short booo. Ill just keep looking.


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## swylie

skabooya said:


> Put in some aqua plus water conditioner turned on the heater (which is a flippin pain) I have no idea how im going to make it stay put in the water. The suction cups dont work and just letting the chord hang over the tank doesnt work either so im currently balancing it on some wood so the water doesnt go over the max water line.


What heater do you have that's not submersible? I've seen some that aren't officially submersible in, say, the US market, but are rated as submersible when sold in Europe. Also, just get some better suction cups. The ones that are made of black rubber seem to work better than the ones that feel plastic-y.


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## skabooya

I have the black rubber ones and yes its not subemersiable. It even says so right on the heater in two languages. Its hard and bothers me because the rim of the hood is what is making it near to impossible. Ill figure something out.

New turn of events. I tried to hook up my fluval 404 (its about 5 years old) and the impeller kept getting stuck. It has never done that before, it usually rattles until the water gets going good and then it stops and everything is fine. This time Water went everywhere, rattling, then the whole thing just shuts down and there is a hum noise and the head of the filter gets extremely HOT!
So i did some troubleshooting and I find out Time to get a new one! great. I cant get a new filter until maybe saturday if im lucky. Also found out average lifespan is 3-5 years. Now why on earth would anyone pay $300 for something that may only last 3 years. Its nuts! (i got mine second hand with another tank)

Now what should i get. another canister or an HOB?


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## skabooya

decided on the HOB. Now im looking for some plants. Anyone out there live in BC and is willing to ship?


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## skabooya

I need Help! Im wracking my brain trying to figure out the planting design for this tank. Can anyone help me?
Im trying to balance colour/shapes/height etc as well as trying to find good niches to place these plants.

Tank dimensions are 31.5"L x 14"W x 17.5"H not including canopy with lights.

The plants I want to work with are (These will also be ordered within the next few weeks from aquariumplants.com):

3 Cryptocoryne wendtii Red
1 " " " Green
1 " " " Bronze
2 Anubias barteri v. 'Nana'
1 Tiger Lotus, Red
1 Dwarf Sag (10 plants per order)
1 Crypto Balansae
1 Four Leaf Clover

The plants I currently have thrown in there are for the sake of having something in there.
1 Bananna plant
2 sunset hygro
1 rotala indica
2 baby tears
1 umbrousum?
1 Brazilian pennywort

This is the tank.











What Im thinking so far is; The bananna plant will be replaced with the tiger lotus Red (keep it trimmed so its low and bushy).
The space between the two pieces of wood will be planted with the clover.
Over the fake wood trailing down in front of it I would love to grow some taiwan moss (I already have it).
The back wall will be planted with the dwarf sag (I want a nice and tall grassy background)
I dont know which back corner i will put the crypt balansae
On the sides of the tanks on the hills I want to plant the crypt windetii's but i dont know what combo on each side.
I have no idea where I can put the anubias nana
I would love to keep the sunset hygro for some added colour and interest but i have no idea where to put it.
Also the niche in the real wood I would like something short as well, maybe more four leaf clover?
I also want to keep the brazilian pennywort but i dont know where it should go. 
The banana plant needs to be somewhere in there too, its a sentimental plant but it doesnt need a special place in the tank.

I need help with this big time. Feel free to add plants or change the plants on the order list. 

I want a nice full lush feel with lots of colour. My fish will be amazonian so a slightly darker jungle look will suit them i think. 

Please please please help me out with this. I need ideas and opinions to make this tank look awsome.


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## skabooya

This is what Im wondering so far. But Im having a really hard time finding vals nana. 
Let me know what you think and what i should change if anything. There is a plant im thinking of putting in the pink circle but I cant think of the name right now and notice there is no anubias nana. I cant figure out where to put them.


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## SheriffBooth

Looks great so far - nice job. One suggestion - if you're planning to put Rams in there, you might want to add a small flower pot or fake cave for them to use; they like having a place to feel safe. Also, you might want to think about have more than two unless you can buy a pair that's already mated. With an unmated pair, one will bully the other.


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## skabooya

That grey fake log thingie is completely hollow inside and there are 4 ways to get out of it so i guess that can be their 'cave'.

I asked on this site, apistogramma.com and bcaquaria (all good sites) about german rams and the general concencus was max of 2, 3 may work but I should have another tank ready if it gets picked on and 4+ is out of the question with the size tank i have.
Thats why I decided on 2


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## SheriffBooth

skabooya said:


> That grey fake log thingie is completely hollow inside and there are 4 ways to get out of it so i guess that can be their 'cave'.
> 
> I asked on this site, apistogramma.com and bcaquaria (all good sites) about german rams and the general concencus was max of 2, 3 may work but I should have another tank ready if it gets picked on and 4+ is out of the question with the size tank i have.
> Thats why I decided on 2


Yeah, with a 32g you could start with 5 or 6 young ones to see if you can get them to pair off. And then you'd pull out the extras once you had a pair. But with the hollow log in that amount of space, and with plants, 2 should do okay even if they aren't man and wife. But 4 or 5 and some dither fish would be pretty maxed out at 32 so unless you want a single species tank you're on the right track. cichlid-forum.com's another pretty great place for ram care.


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## skabooya

Alright this is going to be the plant order unless anyone can suggest anything else for this tank or its design.

Wendtii Red -----------------------3
Wendtii Green ---------------------1
Wendtii Bronze --------------------1
Anubias barteri v. 'nana' -----------2
Microsorium pteropus v. 'windelov'---2
Nymphaea zenkeri (tiger lotus red)---1
Marsilea quadrifolia (four leaf clover)--1
Sagittaria subulata (dwarf sag)-------1
Cryptocoryne crispatula (balansae) --1
Cryptocoryne spiralis----------------1

I still cant find vals nana anywhere otherwise it would def be on the list.
Any thoughts or suggestions?


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## froghair

skabooya, the layout looks good. There's a guy on aquabid that has dwarf vals. I don't know if that's what vals. nana are but I bought some of the dwarf ones and they're pretty nice.


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## skabooya

The LFS found a supplier of vals nana in denmark so they will order from there. lol. They told me it will take a few weeks before they put the order in because of all the plants they already have. They will call me and let me know when the vals come in 

As for the other plants, they will come in the middle of next week. YAY!


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## skabooya

*update* I wont be getting my plants tomorrow as planned because Aquariumplants.com has decided not to ship any plants out this month due to freezing weather.
So hopefully next month I will recieve my plants.... but what a bummer. 

I also purchased 2 german blue rams (m,f) yesterday thinking that I was getting plants wednesday. Oh well at least the conditions are right for them; minus the plants


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## James From Cali

Thats a downer. Well at least the rams are in proper conditions and the plants will be there soon enough.


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## NeonShrimp

skabooya said:


> This is what Im wondering so far. But Im having a really hard time finding vals nana.
> Let me know what you think and what i should change if anything. There is a plant im thinking of putting in the pink circle but I cant think of the name right now and notice there is no anubias nana. I cant figure out where to put them.


This model/diagram looks great what program do you use to make it? Looks good, can't wait to see the finished setup:thumbsup:


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## skabooya

lol microsoft paint. The same paint that just comes with a computer when you buy one 
Thanks for the compliment though


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## skabooya

Well I got a nice gift from my hubby today for Valentines day. He knew I wanted Angelfish so he went out and bought me 4. I only wanted 2 for my tank size but oh well. I will keep them for now and see how they do. Then I will more than likely thin out the herd.


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## skabooya

As part 2 of the present he went out and got me some rummynose tetras today. As it is that will be it for my tank. NO MORE FISH!
But a little problem with them as i see them in the bag floating in my tank.
Not all of them are rummies.
there are 3 rainbowfish but i dont know what kind. Anyone know? Should i keep them or trade them back for more rummies?
Anywho here are the pics.

This is the mystery rainbowfish and the rummies in the bag. They are all pretty stressed right now from the hour long trip in the car from the lfs to home.









Here are my angels from yesterday. They look much better today.









And here is probably one of the best shots i got of my rams. Yes everything is blurry IM TRYING HERE PEOPLE ;p


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## lauraleellbp

I don't know enough about rainbows to ID that one, I keep tetra tanks. Any time I've tried rainbows in my tanks they have not done well, I believe they need a higher pH whereas my tetras prefer lower?

IMO- take them back and trade for rummies. :fish:


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## SearunSimpson

They look like Gerts. I only know them as that, and I'm sure that's a shortenned name of whatever type of rainbows they are. I do know though that settled-in gerts look amazing.


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## TheXman

Well, the two rainbowfish I can see are Pseudomugil furcatus, also known as forktail blue eyes.
Here is a profile on them:
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Furcatus.htm
Pseudomugil gertrudae are a related species, but are spotted and don't have the forked tail appearance among other things.
http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Gertrud.htm


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## skabooya

some updated pics. I cant believe how much the plants have grown. Its crazy.
Sorry for the blurry pics. I need a tripod.









rotala indica pearling









rotala roundifolia pearling









this is only 1.25wpg and realistically 1.1wpg because of depth of tank, restrike, quality of reflector etc. The lights are just regular normal output fluorescent bulbs.

Ferts are:
NPK mixture - 15mL weekly
Iron - 20mL weekly
No root tabs yet but i am waiting for my plant shipment to come in April to start that. 
No CO2
Although i am now getting a bga outbreak and i have some green spot algae on the glass. I need algae eaters 

TheXman- yup thats them.  they are amazing fish and my mature male is displaying all the time to the female. I also have an immature male. The lfs did not want to take them back so i guess they are mine now 
In a couple of months maybe i will move them to my 10gal. But i will need to read up on them more. We shall see how it goes. Thanks


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## skabooya

Update. The plants have grown a lot more and i just did a trim on them today. Im still waiting for my plant order from aquariumplants.com to come in. They've delayed it for 2 months because of our weather so hopefully they will ship in april. 
So i got rid of 2 of my angels and kept 2. They were my faves anyway. They are always hanging out together so im thinking that when they grow up more they may be a pair.
My male ram has no interest in the other ram and is always chasing it around the tank. Taking a closer look at it i think its 2 male rams and not a male/female pair.
My little sick rummy is getting better. Hes not as skinny anymore and it looks like the parasite in his head is going away.
I am also waiting to get the rest of my rummies from the lfs. They have been on order for almost 3 weeks now along with some vals nana. Hopefully they will be in next week. This week i have Parent teacher interviews so im in the school until 5:30pm and prob wont get home until after 6. blah!


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## skabooya

Got the call from the lfs yesterday that my rummies are in. They ordered 24 and only 14 came in so all of them are on hold in case any die from stress and that way i have the pick of the litter/school  I wont be going down there until the weekend so that gives them a couple of days. Im hoping that by then my vals nana comes in.
Ive had to trim my plants in my tank. Everything was touching the top of the water and growing across it. Even my bananna plant sent up 4 long floater leaves. They stay at the back of the tank where there are no bulbs (light), so they arent really shading anything... yet. Their floating leaves are a beautiful mottled red and green. Its lovely.


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## amber2461

Hey skabooya,

How much was your total order from Aquariumplants? The reason for my asking is that I am very interested in buying some but am not sure how much shipping charges are going to be.

Cheers
Marge


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## skabooya

Shipping charges depend on which method you are going for. I went for next day delivery because the plants would be guarenteed.
The total was something like $81.47 i believe. 
My order looks like this
Price: Status: 
1 of : Balansae (Cryptocoryne crispatula) 
CAD1.86 
1 of : CLOVER, FOUR LEAF (Marsilea quadrifolia) 
CAD3.26 
2 of : Java Fern, Lace (Microsorium pteropus v. ‘'Windelov') 
CAD8.02 
2 of : Nana (Anubias barteri v. ‘Nana’) 
CAD9.33 
1 of : Spiralis (Cryptocoryne spiralis) 
CAD1.86 
1 of : Subulata, Dwarf (Sagittaria subulata) 10 Plants per order 
CAD4.58 
1 of : Tiger Lotus, Red (Nymphaea zenkeri) 
CAD4.67 
1 of : Wendtii, Bronze (Cryptocoryne wendtii v. ‘Tropica’) 
CAD3.08 
1 of : Wendtii, Green (Cryptocoryne wendtii) 
CAD1.86 
3 of : Wendtii, Red (Cryptocoryne wendtii) 
CAD5.58 

Next day shipping was $31.63

Ive ordered from them before and their service is awsome. I cant even complain about the delayed plant order because i would rather have healthy plants than plants that arrive frozen.

If you want to find out for sure. do a mock order. Choose what you want to order and the site tallies it all up for you. choose your shipping method etc. Just dont enter your credit card number that way its not official. You will know how much your order will cost in total before you want to make your order.

hope that helps a bit.


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## amber2461

It helps a whole lot, much thanks !!!!


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ...their service is awsome. I cant even complain about the delayed plant order because i would rather have healthy plants...


AGREED.

I have also ordered from them before and am currrently waiting for an order of java ferns and anubias. I am fortunate enough to have the option of local pickup as they have a drop of depot in Winnipeg, which saves me $20 on shipping costs. There anubias are the healthiest I have ever seen as are their java ferns. The java fern mat that they sell for $16.99
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Java_Fern_Microsorium_pteropus_p/mi575.htm

sells for $38 at my lfs. It is the same size and the one at my lfs is coverd with thread algae, the one I got from Aquarium plants was totally algae free.

I had problems with them when the plants arrived and no one from the depot told me, so they sat for a long time and many died. They reshipped all the plants again and ensured the problem did not happen again. I also ordered sag plants in error instead of microswords. They said as the order was already packaged, they would leave the sag plants in there and include the microswords. They did a straight exchange and did not charge me more for the sag plants, so I got those for free. They always throw in a bunch of extras, which I wish they wouldn't do as I only have room in my aquariums to plant the plants that I ordered and no more.

To make a long story short, I too would highly recommend Aquariumplants. I know some members have taken a dislike to them for selling repackaged SMS(Aquariumplants own substrate) for more than what SMS actually costs, but they way I look at it, if you feel a store/individual sells something for more than what it's worth, then simply don't deal with them, don't buy it, and go elsewhere. We are presented with these choices daily and many of us choose not to deal with stores or shops that we feel overcharge for products. This is no different.


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## ingg

your rainbow is a furcata, not a gertrudae.


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## macclellan

I'm entering the conversation late, but overall plan looks good (except filter is tiny?).

Consider what you paid in shipping, you should have gotten more plants. More plants=better tank start in my experience.

Since you can't find val. nana, see if you can get italian vals somewhere. They are smaller and more manageable than jungle vals.

I'm wary about the tiger lotus shadowing the marsilea, given how low light the tank is. Be sure to get a bulb that lets off small leaves, as the lotus is a highly variable species.

4 angels AND rams in a 40g? That's ambitious...

Just some thoughts!


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## skabooya

i think you just read the first couple of posts maccllan. The filter is fine for my 32gal it actually creates a lot of current im quite impressed with it compared to what my fluval 404 was pumping out. 
I only had one choice for shipping with aquariumplants.com I wanted the guarentee in case there were any mishaps so i went for the overnight shipping. That was the cost so thats what i pay. In the end it still ends up being cheaper than what i would pay for each plant at my lfs. 
If you look at the pics of my tank there are already some plants in there, not many but there are some and they have grown a lot. I need to update the pic. I also just recieved another hygro (yet to be identified) from my sis in laws bf. There will be lots of plants...espically when they all grow out.

I also stated i found vals nana. my lfs is ordering it from germany or wherever. It sould be in pretty soon, they are just waiting for their plant order to come in.

I dont really have a choice about the lotus because it is an online company and i cant choose individual plants. I will just have to keep the plant trimmed so the leaves stay low. In any case we will see how this goes.

As for the stocking it is currently as follows:
2 angels (I bought a group of 4 to grow out and then i chose my 2 faves to keep)
2 rams (i wanted 4 rams for a ram tank but after doing more research and going on apistogramma.com i only purchased 2)
4 rummies (soon to be 10)


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## skabooya

ingg thank you for the id. They are all gone now. I got rid of them. As pretty as they were they just didnt go with what i wanted to do with the tank. I hope they are enjoying their new home.


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## macclellan

Sorry, I only skimmed part of pg. 4 but read the rest of thread.

Good luck with the lotus, I hope it doesn't outgrow it's spot (One of the one's I've had outgrew my 75g[!]).


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## skabooya

I hope it wont outgrow its spot either but we shall see


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## skabooya

Updated shots before my plants come in tomorrow or the day aftertomorrow.


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## skabooya

PS the really pale looking rummies are just that. I just got them from the lfs. So they should colour up in the next couple of days


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## skabooya

I just thought i would put up a comparison for plant growth.

Before









After


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## skabooya

WHOO HOOO! my plants JUST came in. Im checking out my order to make sure i have everything and checking to see if everything is okay. Then im planting. Pics to come soon


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## James From Cali

Its so natural looking. I like the looks of it.....so pretty. Nice growth too.


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## skabooya

Yup i dont plan on putting them just anywhere. I have a diagram of my proposed planting plan the page before this one i believe. Ive kept it pretty much the same but there are a few changes because of a few other inspirational tanks ive seen.
Im done the planting and the tank is cloudy but not that bad when it comes to fluorite. Its full of plants but i cant wait for it to grow out. It will look so much better. I am also still waiting for vals nana from my lfs. The supplier in Denmark is waiting for their shipment to come in so that my lfs can get theirs from him. So probably a few more weeks. BAH! im so impatient!

Anywhoo here are some pics.

This is the plant packaging. There was a bit of a funky smell so i was worried but after opening the package and seeing that everything was fine i figured it was just the glue from the box or something.









Someone on here wanted to see 4 leaf clover close up so here is marsilea quadrifolia









FTS still cloudy and its the day time so there is a lot of glare. when its dark and the tank clears up i will take a better pic. I know the java lace ferns look a little strange there but i want to make a nice mound in that area so right now they will just be 'there' until the new leaves start comming in and i can attach them properly onto the wood.









Left side









Right Side


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## skabooya

Alright so now the tank is clear but i need to add water. Oh well tomorrow. Here are the pics I promised. 
















And a close up of the four leaf clover. I believe its emersed growth.









Let me know what you think.


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## skabooya

Update. My lotus bulb sprouted and i had 4 leaves in 3 days. Now i can see the leaves clearly in my tank from my couch. They are about as long as the palm of my hand. Still pretty narrow though. Time will help to fatten it up.
my four leaf clover is sprouting some new growth as is pretty much everything else in my tank  YAY.
I did a 40% waterchange today, trim, scraped algae off the glass... pretty much everything but change the filter (that will be for next week).

Anyway i have a question about my crypts. I ordered Crypt Wendtii red, green and bronze. I cant tell the difference between the red and green (i know which is which because of my planting plan and how they were shipped) but there is no visual difference between the two. The bronze is a bit darker than the rest but thats it.
What will it take for the crypts to colour up? Ive seen very dark wendtii red and bronze and mine look just like plain ol green. 

Any suggestions for this problem?


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## skabooya

Some updated pics as of today.

















And here is a shot of my two angels. the sun was shining really bright so they look very white in this pic. And yes that is two angels not one and its reflection.


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## hooha

that's filling in nicely. I'm all for low-maintenance tanks these days 

As for the C. wendtii, once new leaves sprout they may show more color differences......


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## skabooya

Thanks hooha.

In comparison to the 32gal im really getting disgusted with my 20gal tank. I was not happy with it before but now its just blah!
Im really starting to neglect it (my poor beautiful fish). Im wondering if i should move my remaining harliquen rasboras into the 32gal with my other fish.

Currently in the 32 i have 
2 angels
2 rams
10 rummynose tetras
6 ottos
1 red eye tetra (a mistake from the lfs, they thought it was a rummy)
1 blue eyed rainbow fish thingie (another mistake from the lfs, they thought it was a rummy)

Do you think it would be okay to add my remaining (approx 10) harlequin rasboras to the tank?


Im seariously considering turning my 20 into a saltwater tank. It needs new lights anyway lol.


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## lauraleellbp

IMO the 32gal is already overstocked- the angels put it way over the top (they need a 55gal min).


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## skabooya

Yea thats what i was thinking. Im stocked to the max. As for the angels in this size of tank 2 is max or so ive read. 1 is better. in a 55gal its recommended to have 4 or 5 in a 55. Recommended isint the right word ummmm. Lets just say it can be done. Tons of people however put 6, 7, Ive even seen 13 in a 55. Now that is overstocked.

My original plan was to have
2 angels
6 Marbled Hatchets
2 rams
6-10 rummies
and some ottos for algae clean up.

I was told by numerous people that this sounds just fine (and it was based of others tanks and their bioload.

So now i have
2 angels
10 rummies
2 rams
6 ottos.
(2 other fish im gonna get rid of in the list in the previous post)

I figured since i did not add hatchets i could replace them with the much smaller harlequins. 

I would then have
Harlequin rasboras swimming at the top
Angels in the middle
Rummies and rams swimming at the bottom
Ottos wherever there is algae.

(these are their swimming patterns that i notice)

But yea it is probably too much.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Yea thats what i was thinking. Im stocked to the max. As for the angels in this size of tank 2 is max or so ive read. 1 is better. in a 55gal its recommended to have 4 or 5 in a 55. Recommended isint the right word ummmm. Lets just say it can be done. Tons of people however put 6, 7, Ive even seen 13 in a 55. Now that is overstocked.
> 
> My original plan was to have
> 2 angels
> 6 Marbled Hatchets
> 2 rams
> 6-10 rummies
> and some ottos for algae clean up.
> 
> I was told by numerous people that this sounds just fine (and it was based of others tanks and their bioload.
> 
> So now i have
> 2 angels
> 10 rummies
> 2 rams
> 6 ottos.
> (2 other fish im gonna get rid of in the list in the previous post)
> 
> I figured since i did not add hatchets i could replace them with the much smaller harlequins.
> 
> I would then have
> Harlequin rasboras swimming at the top
> Angels in the middle
> Rummies and rams swimming at the bottom
> Ottos wherever there is algae.
> 
> (these are their swimming patterns that i notice)
> 
> But yea it is probably too much.


FWIW, when I setup my tanks besides trying to avoid overstocking, I also try to combine a good balance of top, bottom, and middle dwelling fish. With the exception of the same schooling fish, I find that if I set up a tank with too many fish competing for the top, middle or bottom levels, they often will agressively compete for the same space, leading to increased stress on some fish and sometimes deaths of some fish due to injuries sustained in petty fighting. 

The reference that I usually consult is this one as it provides a good listing of compatible top, middle, and bottom dwelling fish.
http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/beginnerinfo/a/fishlevels.htm


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## skabooya

Thats for the reference homer.

Im still wondering about the bioload. hmmmm By the looks of my tank it should be okay, and from the majority of people that say its okay... but im still worried.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Thats for the reference homer.
> 
> Im still wondering about the bioload. hmmmm By the looks of my tank it should be okay, and from the majority of people that say its okay... but im still worried.


You're most welcome skabooya. 

I would suggest uinderstocking when in doubt I always err on the side of understocking now. I learned the real dangers of overstocking the hardway. I had a heavily planted 10 gallon tank that was overstocked and I figured that the heavy plant density would compensate. I was also running a UV sterilizer 24/7 and monitoring water parameters monthly. Things progressed really well, but then after 5 months, I started noticing heavy fish deaths with no real explanation. The water parameters were all normal, with zero ammonia and nitrite readings. The UV sterilizer was operational and so I doubt it was a parasite breakout. At one point I even treated the tank(no effect) with erythromycin thinking that a bad bacterial breakout was causing the fish deaths. I did not overfeed the fish and did regular weekly water(pretreated with Prime dechloninator) changes , so it was not neglect that killed the fish. I could understand getting a newly purchased sick fish or two from the pet store that dies because it would have anyway, but we are talking about a domino type effect with almost weekly fish deaths. The only explanation that I could think of was the stress of overcrowding. The funny thing is that I have a 40 gallon tank that is overstocked, uses the same substrate, lighting, etc., I follow the same maintenance routine, and I have had no fish deaths at all in that tank over the same time period. That leads to be believe that bigger is better when it comes to planted tanks, and they may be more tolerant of problems that small tanks would not be tolerant of.


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## James From Cali

I would get at least an angel out of there. 2 for a 30g if breeding and 1 if in community settings. 

Homer, I wonder if there will be a similar effect in my tank with as many danio as I have....hmm.


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## Homer_Simpson

James From Cali said:


> I would get at least an angel out of there. 2 for a 30g if breeding and 1 if in community settings.
> 
> Homer, I wonder if there will be a similar effect in my tank with as many danio as I have....hmm.


Yeah I would be curious. In my case it was a 10 gallon with 30 watts lighting, DIY c02 injection. FWIW, you can read about my log/experiment here:
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

Right now the tank is a disaster with a bad case of green spot algae. It had a bad case of black brush alage but this receded when I started dosing Excel. I have reduced light to 20 watts compact fluorescent, I started dosing Excel, and I just added 5 Amano Shrimp. I was left with one surviving marble hatchet and one surviving otocat. The funny thing is that the fish that were the most sensitive to water quality that should have been the first to die, seemed to have survived the longest. Marble hatchets are really known to be most sensitive to water quality, but they survived the longest. I plan to increase water changes to twice a week to see if I can get the tank to rebalance and will add more floating plants. If things don't turn around in another month after doing this and my remaining fish and amano shrimp die, I will likely tear the tank down and start over. I'll chalk this up as a learning experience.


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## skabooya

Update. I did a major trim on the tank. It was getting really unruly. 
Anyway one of my angels is being a bastard. Hes attacking the other angel and not letting it eat. So now im thinking im gonna have to take him to the lfs. Hes the one in the pic above with the bent fin. Its sad because i dont want to get rid of him. What if i was to move him into my 20gal and move my harlequins into my 32? I mentioned in an earlier post that if this was to happen i would be prepared for it. But i never thought it would be so hard to let go of my little fishie.
Also i am now positive i have 2 male rams instead of a male female pair. The weaker male is constantly being picked on. Im gonna need to trade him in for a female.


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## skabooya

OH and the red eyed tetra has a new home


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## skabooya

Update. Its a daytime shot so if i have time after marking I will take a proper photo at night. PS it needs to be cleaned. Hopefully i will get to that this weekend  Sheesh End of the year for us teachers is a ton of work. blah!


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## klumsyninja

skabooya said:


> Sheesh End of the year for us teachers is a ton of work. blah!


LOL ! 

ya and then there's that horrible *2 month* summer vacation too

poor you :wink: 

(Your tank looks fantastic!)


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## skabooya

Summer vacation whats that? lol yea we get a break from teaching but not from updating and planning our classes for next year. Teachers are SUPPOSTED to do that every year. But yea it will be a much needed and very welcome break. ahhhhh.

Thanks


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## skabooya

July 15 update.
I was getting pissed off with the moss collecting all the crap... literally. So, i removed all of it and rinced it off as well as i could with tank water then tied it onto rocks and placed it back on the fake log for future easy cleanup. I also got more taiwan moss from my other tank and wrapped it around the new log addition on the right hand side.
All my crypts have melted to nearly nothing or nothing in some cases. Waiting for them to rebound. *sigh* stupid tempermental plants. I hope they come back.
Ive been slowly adding java ferns from my 20gal into the 32gal. The shock from the 76F water to 80F water is making the javas unhappy. The leaves have been turning brown and melting for the most part. But thats okay they will come back. Its hapenned before 
I want to bring the lotus down in hight so i am slowly removing the leaves to encourage lower growth. 
I am dealing with some algae right now but i am beating it 
This is the tank after a major trim. It was really overgrown. I completely pulled the rotala roundifolia. It just wasent doing well for me in either tank. It needs C02 i believe or at least much higher lighting however rotalia indica is doing quite well for me as well as stargrass and m. umbrosium. The dwarf sag is spreading. I have had to trim the leaves a few times to keep the height down.
I just did a WC (50%) and added some iron so in the next couple of days the sunset hygro will colour up to a hot pink like it does after each large WC and iron addition.
Anyway here it is.


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## skabooya

One more


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## lauraleellbp

Looks awesome! :thumbsup:


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## skabooya

Im sad. My tank that was looking good has gone way way downhill. My plants were dying (sunset hygro down to 2 small stems), nana with lots of holes with brown and yellow edges around the holes, algae over everything (brown stringy algae looks like ugly brown staghorn but its not, diatoms, and cyno in areas that are high flow.)
Tried to up my flow because thats supposted to deter algae and left it like that for a few weeks... made it a lot worse and pissed off a lot of plants. I upped my WC schedule to 50% weekly and that seemes to do nothing but keep my tank stable.
I was adding ferts but then i thought hmmm algae because of too many nutrients so i completely got rid of the ferts. That did nothing. I read a thread saying to just add excel so the plants can suck up all thoese extra nutrients so i was doing that and the algae just loved it.
So i dunno anymore. You can see in the pic above that i had algae issues then WELL its worse now and i dont know what else to do. 
Anyone have any thoughts?
Just keep up with the WC? Anyone see what i could be doing wrong? Im clueless and i feel so embarassed by it.
My fish love it though... they laugh at my misery.
Here are some pics (some good some bad)


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Im sad. My tank that was looking good has gone way way downhill. My plants were dying (sunset hygro down to 2 small stems), nana with lots of holes with brown and yellow edges around the holes, algae over everything (brown stringy algae looks like ugly brown staghorn but its not, diatoms, and cyno in areas that are high flow.)
> Tried to up my flow because thats supposted to deter algae and left it like that for a few weeks... made it a lot worse and pissed off a lot of plants. I upped my WC schedule to 50% weekly and that seemes to do nothing but keep my tank stable.
> I was adding ferts but then i thought hmmm algae because of too many nutrients so i completely got rid of the ferts. That did nothing. I read a thread saying to just add excel so the plants can suck up all thoese extra nutrients so i was doing that and the algae just loved it.
> So i dunno anymore. You can see in the pic above that i had algae issues then WELL its worse now and i dont know what else to do.
> Anyone have any thoughts?
> Just keep up with the WC? Anyone see what i could be doing wrong? Im clueless and i feel so embarassed by it.
> My fish love it though... they laugh at my misery.
> Here are some pics (some good some bad)


What is your lighting like? How long do your run your lights and what total watts of lighting? I had similiar problems and I found that the change that made the biggest dent in the algae problem was reducing the lighting intensity from 30 watts to 20 watts for my 10 gallon and reducing the duration of lighting to 8 hours with 2 hour photoperiod. 4 hours on 2 hours off and 4 hours on again. That combined with an army of Amano(algae eating) shrimp.

The only other thing that you can do is introduce pressurized or DIY c02 injection. Not likely something you want to do if your goal is to go low tech. DIY c02 can be a real PITA when it comes to maintaining stable c02 levels and without stable c02 levels the algae could get worse. 

Good luck


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## skabooya

I have 40 watts over my 32gal tank (2x20watts NO fluorescent). I run them for 8 hours a day and lately ive been reducing it because of the algae however my plants are suffering because of it.
C02 will just make it worse for me because i dont have the time to constantly check to make sure the C02 is bang on. 
The only thing i can think of is to start EI dosing for low tech tanks. 
Ive been thinking about shrimp but i think my fish would eat them so i have 6 ottos that bairly make a dent.


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## skabooya

I read Tom Barr's Non C02 tank setup on his website. So this is what i am going to do until i get the right ferts. Im hoping that what i will do will help.
Lighting period at 8hrs per day
Ferts once a week (recommended dosage)
No WC just top offs Although with the amount of algae i get within a couple of days its gonna be tricky not to scrape it away and then vaccume it out.
AHHHHHH freaks me out. Does this even sound okay?


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## skabooya

Well i am noticing quite a difference with the change of light from 8 hours to 6 hours and ODing on the Excel and underfeeding fish. There is a lot less algae.
However the more i look at my tank the more i hate it. It needs a total revamp. I want a lush full tank however the hardscape is lacking and my plants are dying so its less than pretty. I tried to change it by moving my fake log to an upright position.... i dont like it. I was getting sick of it before because it looked so out of place but when the moss covered it it was pretty... but now my moss is dying. It just gets covered in diatoms and then it started dying and now that im OD'ing on the excel its really not happy. 
Anyway heres a list of what HAS survived:
Red tiger lotus (bulb broke off during a WC but its 2 very very small plantlets now 
Lace Java fern (covered in cyno and im not sure i like its placement)
Java fern (when i moved it from my 20gal into this tank it melted BAD but its making a comback)
Rotalia indica (no leaves at the bottom but very lush at the top near the light and covered with cyno)
2 Anubis nana (covered in diatoms and cyno was starting to take hold)
4 leaf clover (smothered in cyno and grows really really slow. i wanted a carpet in that area 
m umbrosium (not doing too too bad but it was doing better
stargrass (was doing awsome but is now almost completely dead)
dwarf sag (its a weed and growing very well)
taiwan moss (death by diatoms still some there but its weak)
pennywort (not growing at all its just there getting covered in cyno)
1 crypt windettii green (its doing ok now but i really wanted my reds and bronze to grow so there could be some colour i also wanted my balansae and spiralis to grow too but that didnt happen either 
1 bananna plant, doing ok but the banannas are dying and big roots are taking over so i think it will be ok. If it dies then its no huge loss i just got it because of nostalgia

What im thinking now is to go really basic with the planting and i mean tough plants that just wont die can do really well under very very low lighting Soooo
I think im going to try some more crypt windetii reds and bronze and a lot of them... hopefully one will live, im thinking about trying needle leaf java fern since java ferns are tough as an old boot.
Im also looking at more anubias nana and petit, im really loving their leaf shapes. 

So when i get this algae under control and figure out what my tank needs (im thinking i may have to invest in C02 )i want to do a new scape. Can anyone suggest anything for my tank layout wise with plants and such?

Pictures of tank as of today and believe me it is better just look at the before pics


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## Wasserpest

I would start by fighting the cyanobacteria. They are easily killed with Erythromycin tablets. Usually I don't recommend the chemicals route, but cyano can take all the fun out of a planted tank.

IMO regular weekly water changes help to keep things fresh and balanced and plants growing. Yes there are some low tech approaches without water changes, but there is more to that than just skipping water changes.

CO2 definitely helps plants to get going, and suppresses algae. If the pressurized route seem too expensive now, with DIY you can have the same result, it is just a bit more work.

If you do that, and add small amounts of macros (NPK) and even smaller amounts of micros it should get the basics right, and in combination with water changes your plants should start to overcome the algae.


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## Homer_Simpson

cyno can be a real PITA to deal with as it is not technically algae but bacteria. That means all measures to deal with regular algae(excluding blackouts) will not work on it. Excel or overdosing with excel will have no impact on it.

It is generally but not universally agreed that when nitrates bottom out and reach zero, cyno materializes. Others say that cyno is more the result of a certain phosphate and nitrate ratio and it is actually too high a phosphate level relative to nitrates that causes cyno to materialize. I believe that lack of nitrates or zero nitrates may be a contributing but not only factor. I have seen it in my tanks where nitrates were very high as measured by calibrated nitrate test kits.

So, you are probably thinking, how do you get rid of this stuff. There are two equally effective methods but there is disagreement as to which method is the best and both camps tend to fight amongst themselves.

Dosing Erythromycin as per package directions. Since cyno is a bacteria, the Erythromychin will kill it. Most who have gone this route claim it works fast, with no effect on fish or the biofilter, and the cyno has not come back.

Blackouts is the second method. You basically cover your tanks with garbage bags to eliminate all light. This pretty much starves the cyno as it needs light to thrive and the cyno dies off. Some don't like this method as they claim that plants that also need high light suffer and some claim plant deaths after the garbage bags have been lifted. 

I don't like to advocate one method over another. I am only posting this for educational purposes. When I had a bad outbreak of cyno, the blackout method did not work for me, but the Erythromycin method did. I noticed no ill effects on my fish or plants and the biological filter appeared unphased based on water tests I ran before, during, and after treatment.

Nerite snails are alleged to be the only creature that will consume cyno. However, even if this was true, the nerite snail would only address the symptoms and not the root cause.


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## skabooya

Thank you for the responses.
Ive tried the black out a few times and it doesnt work the bacteria just keeps comming back. 
Where would i find Erythromychin pills? are they available through the lfs?
I am also going to buy some test kits (probably the master kit) so i know what the heck is going on in my tank.

If i cant find the master kit can you suggest to me which test kits would be the ones i would def need to figure out what is going on here?

Im thinking if it is the nitrate then im gonna pick up the powdered ferts. I do use NPK but i guess its not working or i just need a bit more N.
Im also doing a lot of research for DIY C02 and i will more than likely do it. I do have most of the equiptment and also equiptment for a reactor so i just need to come up with a plan and the next time i go shopping im getting it all.


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## lopez_316us

*Erythromycin....

http://www.bigalsonline.com/edealin...684&siId=1741948&catParentID=18438&scId=18438
*


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## skabooya

Thank you.


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## Homer_Simpson

Your lfs should have Erythromycin given that it is a broad spectrum antibiotic used to treat several fish diseases. If your lfs carries it, it may be cheaper buying locally than on-line as you would not pay shipping costs.


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## skabooya

sounds good i will check there first. Do you know where i could buy dry ferts online in Canada? I think it would be more economical to buy dry and dose KNO3 to make sure my nitrates are up and stay up.
Should i wait until my cyno and other algaes are under control before i start DIY C02 or should i start it right away??


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## Homer_Simpson

Hydroponic stores in Canada carry the dry ferts and you may be able to order on-line, here is a list of the ones in Canada.
http://www.hydroponics.com/hydroshops/canadian_locations.html

If you use Erythromycin to kill the cyno, introducing the c02 and ferts should not interfere with the process. Many use Erythromycin treatment in high tech tanks with c02 and ferts to kill cynao without ill effects on plants. In fact I think that giving the plants food in the form of ferts that they need at this time may in fact even be crucial for their recovery and long term health. Just be sure to follow up with the required water changes when using cyno as some say the die off of cyno may result in ammonia spikes. However, not to sound contradictory, but cyno is know to starve water of oxygen that your fish depend on, so if you have a lot of cyno, I would be inclined to wait until the cyno is dead as I would not want to risk what may happen to fish in an environment with excessive oxygen starvation combined with c02 injection. Also, seriously consider pressurized c02. It is much more expensive than DIY c02 but in my experience it is much easier to maintain stable c02 levels with c02 which is crucial for long term algae avoidance and good plant growth. In the long run, pressurized c02 is actually cheaper than DIY when you cost out how much you pay for sugar and yeast over the lifetime that you will have the tank.

It can be really confusing when you introduce ferts and c02 for the first time. I highly recommend Rex Grigg's site. He lays out everything for you in simple and easy to follow ways. It is one of the best sites for planted aquariums, fertilizing, cycling, and c02 IMHO.
http://www.rexgrigg.com/index.html

Good luck and hope that helps


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## Wasserpest

Homer_Simpson said:


> Your lfs should have Erythromycin given that it is a broad spectrum antibiotic used to treat several fish diseases. If your lfs carries it, it may be cheaper buying locally than on-line as you would not pay shipping costs.


Over here, LFS carry Maracyn, which is horribly overpriced EM. They also have EM tablets, which are expensive too, but not as bad as the Mardel stuff.

There are many stories/opinions on how much to dose and how many days and water changes and all. Everyone is doing that differently, and I did 200mg/10gal the initial dose, then after 24 hrs a partial WC and 100mg/10gal, and repeated that for another 3 times, for a total of 5 doses.

So for a 30 gal tank, if you would follow that you would need initially 3 pills, then 4x 1.5 more for a total of 9 pills. I guess you can buy a 10 pack locally. I did it for a 100gal tank, that gets expensive quickly. :confused1:


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## skabooya

thank you so much for the information. Im going out today to the lfs to pick up some test kits and materials to build a DIY C02 bottle, gas seperator and reactor.
I never thought i would go C02 but if it helps out with my tank then thats what i am going to do.

Also when dosing ferts (lemme just get this straight) 
Its NPK as well as KNO3 KH2PO4 K2SO4 and traces ? And in a low tank like mine suggested would be once a week or whatever it takes to keep params up to
Nitrates 10-20ppm 
Phosphates 1.0-2.0 ppm 
Iron 0.1-1.0 ppm 
Potassium 10-20 ppm
Is this correct?


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## skabooya

back from the lfs (next town over) and guess what... I didnt remember it was rememberance day *shame* I did celebrate it in school and I remembered yesterday but i forgot today and everything was closed  So i ended up going to Walmart to see what they had... silicone tubing, and yeast, thats it. We also had dinner out there as well but the shopping trip was uneventful for good reasons. So hopefully this weekend we will go back up when everything is open.
Again i ask the question because im confused now When dosing ferts i need to add NPK as well as KNO3 KH2P04 K2SO4 and traces so long as i keeep the params at
nitrates 10-20ppm
phosphates 1.0-2.0ppm
Iron 0.1-1.0ppm
Potassium 10-20ppm
Is this correct?????


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ...Again i ask the question because im confused now When dosing ferts i need to add NPK as well as KNO3 KH2P04 K2SO4 and traces so long as i keeep the params at
> nitrates 10-20ppm
> phosphates 1.0-2.0ppm
> Iron 0.1-1.0ppm
> Potassium 10-20ppm
> Is this correct?????...


It is very difficult to accurately measure to ensure that you remain within those ideal parameters, largely owing to the inaccuracy of test kits. Yes, you should dose KN03, KH2P04, K2S04, and traces as uptake of these nutrients by plants is interrelated. The plants would stuggle to uptake one nutrient when there is a deficiency of another, so you really need to have them all work in concert The best way to do this is to use Tom Barr's Estimative Index which will ensure that you remain at optimal levels as long as your c02 and lighting is to speed and you do the 50% weekly water changes to reset the tank and prevent an excess build up of ferts which could harm your fish.

Without the Estimative Index, the only other way to ensure that your plants have sufficient nutrients is do through trial and error and keeping an eye on plant nutrient deficiency symptoms.
You can use the guide here
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm to check for and dose according to plant deficiency symptoms if you choose to go that route. Personally, I would go the EI route as it takes away the time and effort involved in the trial and error route.


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## skabooya

Thanks for the site. After looking at the deficiencies and then looking at my plants it looks like i have most of those  Which i thought was strange because i WAS dosing NPK in liquid form as per directions on the bottle and iron and excel Things used to be fine and thriving but its just recently that things are bad. 
So now my shopping list would be 
NPK (im thinking the squirt bottles from pfertz) ?? or should i just get the recommended ferts for the EI method. 
Im thinking EI method may be better however i do have low light so my dosing will have to be a lot less. And again i am left with finding a source for dry ferts shipped to canada.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Thanks for the site. After looking at the deficiencies and then looking at my plants it looks like i have most of those  Which i thought was strange because i WAS dosing NPK in liquid form as per directions on the bottle and iron and excel Things used to be fine and thriving but its just recently that things are bad.
> So now my shopping list would be
> NPK (im thinking the squirt bottles from pfertz) ?? or should i just get the recommended ferts for the EI method.
> Im thinking EI method may be better however i do have low light so my dosing will have to be a lot less. And again i am left with finding a source for dry ferts shipped to canada.


You are welcome . IMHO, it is far more cost effective to get the dry ferts. And you are correct, with low light, no c02, you do not want to go full throttle with the EI Method as uptake of nutrients will likely be much lower. What the effect of such a quick build of excess can have on fish, only God knows. I certainly would not take that risk. It is safer to adjust dosage slowly upward if you need to, rather than the other way around. I have a low tech 5 gallon(no c02 but daily dosing of Excel), I dose the equivalent of one EI dosage weekly after every water change. The tank has been up and running for about 8 months and so far I have noticed no plant deficiency symptoms or algae. The creatures(Amano Shrimp and Otocat), which are known to be the most sensitive to water quality are still alive and kicking.


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## skabooya

ok wait wait wait. 
Homer u saying i dont need c02 now? No C02 was the route i wanted to go with but then after doing more research and conversing on here and another forum C02 with ferts was suggested to be a very good idea in my tank.
So now what should i do? DIY C02 and ferts OR just ferts... no C02 and perhaps some excel but not a lot.
Tom Barr and Rex Grigg both recommend C02 in both cases... at least thats what it sounds like for high and low light tanks to aid in nutrient uptake so plants can outcompete algae. So anyway now i am super confused. 
Do i or do i not C02????????



The only thing i know for sure is not to dose very much (which i knew anyway) but now i am so confused with the C02 and ferts thing HALP!!


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ok wait wait wait.
> Homer u saying i dont need c02 now? No C02 was the route i wanted to go with but then after doing more research and conversing on here and another forum C02 with ferts was suggested to be a very good idea in my tank.
> So now what should i do? DIY C02 and ferts OR just ferts... no C02 and perhaps some excel but not a lot.
> Tom Barr and Rex Grigg both recommend C02 in both cases... at least thats what it sounds like for high and low light tanks to aid in nutrient uptake so plants can outcompete algae. So anyway now i am super confused.
> Do i or do i not C02????????
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing i know for sure is not to dose very much (which i knew anyway) but now i am so confused with the C02 and ferts thing HALP!!


Sorry to confuse you. In my experience, I never had better results injecting DIY c02 in my tanks vs Excel as far as low tech goes. So, I can only speak from my own experience. Other peoples' experiences may be different. The other thing about DIY c02, which even Tom Barr acknowledges is the importance of c02 stability even in low tech. With DIY, maintaining stable c02 levels can be tricky. You have to have a good diffuser and change the mixture at least biweekly to ensure stable c02 levels. Without stable c02, algae becomes difficult to contain. 

From the pictures you have posted, your main problem seems to be cyano. C02 injection will do little to combat cyano. Most types of Algae, excluding cyano, generally does not thrive in a low light/low tech tank, which is why a low tech tank is preferable. The c02 injection in that case will only promote slightly faster plant growth, but since the fuel(high light) that feeds algae is not there to begin with, an algae explosion should not occur in a low tech tank. If I were in your shoes, before going the c02 route, I would kill the cyno using Erythromycin, remove as much of the algae manually as possible and trim leaves that are smothered in algae, do water changes twice a week, go to a split photoperiod(put your lights on a timer, 4 hours on 2 hours off and 4 hours on) double dose Excel daily for carbon and with every water change, fertilize once a week with the second water change. Be patient, it may take 3 months before your tank begins to recover, but once it stabilizes you should be fine.


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## skabooya

Wow lots of work. I will do a second WC tonight then and add excel. I guess out with the DIY Co2 (wich actually makes me happy). 
I finally found some places that i can order dry ferts from... its expensive though because of this government bomb thing with KNO3 but i need it for my tank and in the long run it will be cheaper esp in a low tech tank.

I know i need KNO3 and KH2PO4 and Trace and possibly a little GH booster (i can do that with baking soda right?)

But do i need K2SO4 and Plantex CSM + B in a low tech low light tank??


Thank you again

Tom Barrs Method for Non C02 tanks speaks a lot of sense and just for reference here it is so I dont forget about it and so others can read it as well.

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative...2-methods.html

"While much of the attention and aquascape seen on the web focuses on CO2 enrichment in their methods, Diana Walstad presents an excellent arguement for the apporach of a non CO2 enriched planted Aquarium. We should also extend this to include Excel and carbon enrichement liquids as well as acetate which allow some algae to exist without any light or CO2 and grow heterotrophically (like us). She discusses not needing test kits, water changes, pruning often, dosing, work that most aquarist do not care for. 

What? You mean no water chnages? Yes, that's right.
No testing? Yes, that's right, but you can if you wish. 
Not much pruning? Yes, that's right, the plants grow much slower.
No dosing? Generally yes for many easy to care for pland species(I'll discuss this much more later), the fish waste represents the dosing and you feeding them daily adds the nutrients.

So why don't more folks do it?
I'm not sure, given the goals they say they want when setting up a planted tank.

CO2 is a bit like a drug addiction that hobbyists get hooked on. That's fine, but this non CO2 approach will give an excuse to have another tank that needs less attention and is cheap.

I suggest folks coming from either the non CO2 or the CO2 enrichement approaches to give the other method a try and see what benefits it has.

CO2 and non CO2 tanks work for all the same reasons, but........
They grow at different rates.

Based off of my testing, I'd estimate close to 5 to 10 times slower than a CO2 enriched tank at 2-3 w/gal.

This rate of growth is such that the fish waste alone is enough to supply the needs for the plants. If we added more light then the CO2 would start becoming a more limiting factor and allow algae to grow better (algae need higher light to grow well in non CO2 enriched systems wereas the plants are much more limited without CO2). A lower light level is required, generally about 1.5 to 2w/gal is good. 

We also need a balanced fish load and feeding routine since this is our main long term input of plant nutrients. Fish food varies in it's amount and ratio of nutrients. This is not an issue unless it becomes limiting. Very often since non CO2 tanks get neglected, they have trouble growing certain plants. If these nutrients are not allowed to bottom out(Say PO4 or NO3), then many of the species folks suggest cannot be kept, suddenly can be kept in non CO2 tanks but they simply grow slower. 

Rather than suggesting allelopathy, Fe algae limitation of PO4 limitation, I will say none of this exist. Rather, non limiting nutrient levels for plants will provide better conditions.

CO2 will limit both plants and algae, the lower light and high plant biomass density will provide a better place for the plants and a worse place for the algae. CO2 and non CO2 tanks work well and are algae free namely due to high plant biomass that is relatively healthy. This plant biomass removes NH4 from the fish waste.

We can add KNO3 and KH2PO4 and show that in a non CO2 tank, excess PO4, NO3 (and Fe) do not cause algae blooms. We can add NH4 and induce a bloom just like a CO2 enriched tank. 

This assumption and knowledge frees us from limitation of nutrients which ultimately does more harm to the plants' health and well being, allowing a better environment for algae to grow.

Doing water changes adds CO2 back to a CO2 limited tank.
Plants and algae both can and do adapt to low CO2 environments and induce genes to make enzymes that concentrate CO2 around Rubisco, the CO2 fixing enzyme. When we add the CO2 at higher levels back, this causes the plants and algae to destroy the low CO2 enzymes and start growing without of them since they no longer need them to fix CO2 form the KH ( the -HCO3).
Why keep all this machinery around if you no longer need it? Doing weekly water changes "fools" the plants and helps encourage algae more. Algae are faster to respond to low CO2 than plants.
Once the plants do adapt, they can do well.

Soil substrates are popular with non CO2 users and they work well but peter out after about 6-12 months. They help the plants get established initailly abnd supply nutrients that are other wise lacking in the beginning before many fish are added and the tank has had a chance to accumulate waste.

I suggest onyx sand as it added Ca, Mg, and Fe, and I add mulm/detritus freshly from another established tank to add bacteria and cycle the tank immediately. I also add a form of organic material other than soil. The bacteria that break the waste down need a source of carbon as an electron donor besides the elements in the waste. Like us, they need their carbs as well. As these bacteria break the carbon and waste down, they consume O2. 
This lowers the redox values in the substrate freeing up Fe2+ and other nutrients.

Add too much organic matter and O2 and you get O2 levels that are too low and cause issues for your tank. Soil also has NH4, this we know to cause algae in higher amounts and it does not take much! Ways around this: don;t use soil, it's messy and has NH4/urea. Boiling the soil for a few minutes will oxidize the NH4 to NO3. Allowing damp soil to be spread thinly outside for few weeks(3) will allow the NH4 to be converted into NO3 by bacteria.
Peat moss, ground peat, works well also.

The other options are add lots of mulm instead and leonardite.
Leonardite is great, it last a very long time, adds a slow release form of carbon, matches the gravel's color, sinks easily poses no issues if you disturb and uproot plants. 

You should always add fresh mulm to any new tank. Add some form of carbon as well, pre soaked/boiled soil, pre soaked peat, leonardite.

Dosing:
Since the plants are the same as they are in a CO2 enriched tank and we know the rates of uptake are there, we can scale down the rates for the non CO2 dosing routine.

I removed all fish and critters from the test tanks, I dosed only with KNO3m, and other inorganic fertilizer so that I would see only plant uptake and inorganic ferts contributions to the plant's health.

Going back and assuming 80-90% of the nutrients will come from the fish load, I added once a week KNO3/KH2PO4.

While trace mixes can be added, I decided to use SeaChem Equlibrium instead.
It has Fe and Mn as well as Ca/K/Mg/SO4.
I will add about 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gal tank once every week or two.
This greatly enhances the growth of the plants. 
I also will add about 1/8" and 1/32" teaspoon of KNO3 and KH2PO4 respectively once a week or two. 

The plants will repsond very well to this routine. You can let the tank go for awhile and not dose to purge any excesses that might have built up over a month or two or you can test to see rather than do the water change.

DW does not suggest dosing, but adding 2-3 things once a week or two, certainly is not that tough???? the plants do gain a lot and then you can grow most any plant in a non CO2 tank.

From here if you want more growth, Excel is a good option. You can add about 2-3x as much ferts then."


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## Homer_Simpson

IME, Tom Barrs' low tech method is excellent. This is the method that I have had the most success with. It is certainly worth considering and the long term reward and payoff makes it worthwhile.


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## skabooya

Ok everything is sounding good
Let me get my shopping list on here and you can tell me if it is good, if i am missing anything or if anything needs to be omitted
KNO3
KH2PO4
Trace elements (im getting a free batch of amazon elements which has everything that seachem equilibrium has but if i find some equilibrium i will buy some more of that)
EM
and a powerhead to mix everything up (i dont think my AC is powerful enough now esp with plant mass so im gonna pick up a 160gph powerhead and put a foam prefilter on one end so i have more flow and beneficial bacteria. 
OH and some more Excel

what do ya think??? Good list?


----------



## lopez_316us

Hey how is the BGA doing? Did you doze the Erythromycin? I'm having the same problems with BGA and the feedback would be awesome!

Thanks!


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Looks like a good list. My tap water tends to have levels of calcium sub-optimal for plants, so I dose Calcium Sulphate with Magnesium(epsom) salts. As Calcium and Magnesium are dependent on one another for plant uptake. I found that this worked better for me than Equilibrium. I also dose Seachem Flourish Iron. Once a week(EI dose) with my low tech tanks and 3x/week(again EI doses) with the traces for my high tech, high light, pressurized c02 injected 40 gallon tank. I have no algae in any of my tanks and plant growth is good. Snails are the only issue in my low light tanks but I am able to contain the population by baiting with Zucchini. I introduced an Assasin Snail, but it is too early to tell what long term effect it will have on the snail population.

I am not suggesting that you follow the same route as your tap water may be different and may have more than sufficient levels of calcium and magnesium. Again, you may have to watch for plant deficiency symptoms and tweak a little until everything stabilizes.


----------



## skabooya

Im almost positive my water is very low in calcium and magnesium. We have very soft acidic water here and absolutely no mineral deposits anywhere from calcium. 
Epsom salts contain calcium? i need to look this up more.


----------



## skabooya

ok looked it up, no calcium. Its a good sourse though i think im gonna stick with my list for now and see how things go
I did a WC today and od' on the excel and added some ferts (NPK and Iron) for the plants.


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## skabooya

Alright i already learned something about my tank. It doesnt like 2 WC a week I now have a bacterial bloom in my tank (cloudy water). Just lovely.
Mind you the bacteria might just kill eachother off competing for nutrients *crosses fingers*


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Alright i already learned something about my tank. It doesnt like 2 WC a week I now have a bacterial bloom in my tank (cloudy water). Just lovely.
> Mind you the bacteria might just kill eachother off competing for nutrients *crosses fingers*


Sorry to hear that. I guess every tank is different. When I had alage outbreaks in my tanks, I did 50% water changes twice a week without any problems. As long as I did not disturb(rescape) the substrate or replace filters( I only rinsed the filter media in aquarium water) I had no issues with cloudiness. Are you able to test your water to see what the parameters are like. Cloudiness is not always due to a bacterial bloom. If your water parameters are normal, then it may not be an issue and will go away on its own.


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## skabooya

I need to go out and buy more test kits (mentioned earlier) the ones i have are very OLD as in when i started the hobby 13 years ago lol. Hopefully this weekend i will be going to terrace to pick up some supplies.
This is the same bloom that happens in new tanks. So im thinking that i suctioned out too much mulm and took out too much plant matter (large change in the water chemistery) because my last cleaning before this one was a really really good one filter and all and then i did another cleaning (just mulm on top of substrate in the front of the tank). 
I dont stick the gravel syphon into my gravel i just skim the top just above the gravel. I also wash my sponge in tank water. All water put back into my tank is treated with aqua clear and is the same temperature. 
The lights are out now until i get home later today. I will update as to how the tank looks.


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## Homer_Simpson

It would not be a bad idea to add some floating plants to help soak up any excess ammonia if the water parameters were thrown out of whack by the clean up. I find that Cardamine Lyrata works really well and the surface of my 40 gallon tank is literally getting choked with Cardamine growth, so I have to do a major trim this weekend. As I would be throwing a lot of the cardamine out, I would have no issues sending you some for free, but I am not sure what the shipping costs would be and whether the cardamine would survive the cold weather transit. Test the water first and keep a close eye on the ammonia and nitrites.


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## skabooya

From Winnipeg i think overnight shipping (to make sure plants arrive alive) would be somewhere around $36. Its similar to aquariumplants.ca
Ive always wanted floating plants but in such a low light tank i need all the light i can get in there. So thank you for the offer anyway perhaps if i change my planting scape ?? 
OH and my cloudy water has cleared up. I guess it only lasted a couple of hours. Someone on another forum said that the water clouds up after you add excel immediately after a WC. Ive never heard of that before but oh well. Its clear now.


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## lopez_316us

*Erythromycin ?*

Hey did you use the Erythromyci? How is the BGA?

Thanks!


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## Homer_Simpson

lopez_316us said:


> Hey did you use the Erythromyci? How is the BGA?
> 
> Thanks!


FWIW, this is how I dosed and after the final dose, the BGA had all but vaporized.

Day 1[Oct 13 2007]: Dose EM[In my case, manual removal of as much Blue Green Algae as possible, 50% water change, and dosing with EM]
Day 2[Oct 14 2007]: Nothing
Day 3[Oct 15 2007]: WC, Dose EM[ In my case, I performed a 25% water change and EM dose]
Day 4[Oct 16 2007]: Nothing
Day 5[Oct 17 2007]: WC, Dose EM[In my case, I performed a 25% water change and Em dose]
Day 6[Oct 18 2007]: Nothing
Day 7[Oct 19 2007]: WC, Dose EM[In my case I performed a 25% water change followed by 4th and final Em dose to complete treatment]


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## skabooya

Nope havent done anything yet other than WC and OD on excel. 
Like i mentioned earlier Im going up to the next town over this weekend to pick up the EM and probably a powerhead to help move the water around more. We dont have a pet store in our town our nearest one is 45min away If you wanna break the speed law lol.
lopez thanks for asking
Homer thanks for the dosing schedule for EM. It gives me an idea of what to do.


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## skabooya

Well i went to the lfs today and i was dissapointed. They didnt have EM but they did have macryn so i bout that $20 for a 118ml bottle. I also bought Nitrate test kit and an Iron test kit... they had nothing else. My total was $48. They had no fluorish Excel and after talking to one of the girls they may not carry it anymore GRRRRR. 
Should i wait for my ferts to come in before I start using Macryn?


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## skabooya

THE RESULTS ARE IN!!!
I did the tests (kits that LFS had)
Tank Water 
PH: 6.4
Fe non chelated: 0
chelated: 1.0mg/L
NO3: 50+ mg/L (Can you say Water change!!!)

Tap Water
PH: 6.8
Fe non chelated: 0
chelated: 0
NO3: 0

So the nitrate explaines all the other algaes im getting (need to up the WC schedule). but does elevated nitrate explain Cyno? I dont get it. I thought cyno was because of low nitrates


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## skabooya

Did some more research on cyno. I put the airstone back in my tank to get some oxygen in there because aparently cyno is an oxygen producer and thrives in tanks with low oxygen. So I add oxygen and the cyno goes away. I need to pick up a powerhead to help out with the flow as well. I was looking at one today made for a 40gal tank and it was *$89*!!! It was aparently the only powerhead brand they carried. sheesh. I guess when i order my salttwater tank stuff im ordering an extra powerhead for my freshwater tank.
I started dosing macryn today. Tomorrow is a WC and then macryn again.
Dosing is on days 1,3,5 and WC on days when there is no dosing. It says to do 30% or more but im gonna do 50 to help reduce my ferts. I will be testing my water params weekly for quite some time to try and keep things stable.


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## fastfreddie

It sounds like you're on your way back to a healthy tank. What a mess. I'm looking forward to seeing it all back in action. 

Hey are you anywhere close to Vancouver? I have some friends that own a rug store there. Check it out: 2nd Century Rug Co.


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## skabooya

Im about 16 driving hours away from Van or a 3 hour flight.
Thanks Im hoping this will work. Im also doing a blackout while im doing the treatment.
I was told on another forum to not do any WC during treatment with macryn or the bacteria can become resistant. So i guess im doing a large one once the treatment is over. Blackout for the entire treatment as well.


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## skabooya

Today is day 3 of the treatment. Day 1 macaryn day 2 nothing day 3 macaryn (see how it goes?? lol)
I took a look at my tank and i see no changes thus far. Everything looks the same.
When should i start to see cyno death?? I want to celebrate.


----------



## Wasserpest

Low nitrates can be a factor in getting cyanobacteria, just because they can survive low nitrate conditions better than algae and plants. But that doesn't mean that high nitrate levels always keep them away.

Water movement is another such factor, often cyano flourishes in tanks with poor circulation, but that doesn't mean good circulation will guarantee its absence.

I think water changes keep things "fresh" and that is a good way to keep cyano in check. Healthy, growing plants are the other part of this. Years ago there was much discussion about the "redox potential" aka ORP and it was thought that a low redox potential was an invitation for cyano.

I don't know about your EM dosing, in my case, I dosed full strength day 1, and then half strength days 2, 3, 4 and 5, and saw the first clear signs of dying cyano on day 3 iirc. It seems like your dosing reduces the EM concentration quite a bit on the waterchange day and I would not recommend that. With antibiotics, you want a pretty steady concentration for a certain amount of time to make sure all the baddies are killed for good.


----------



## skabooya

Im not dosing EM im dosing Macaryn. It says on the bottle to dose on days 1,3,5.
And yes i need to do more WC. Im waiting for after the treatment to do another major WC +50% weekly to try and get params back to normal and then 25% weekly depending on tank specs from testing.
I have strange cyno. Its growing everywhere including in my filter and directly where the water has the most flow. There is very little cyno where flow is low but its still there. So flow is not the problem.
Low nitrates are not the problem because mine are very very high so i need to reduce them. (high nitrates did explain my other algae problems though).
Ive read that cyno grows in water systems (lakes, streams, etc) with low oxygen so i added an airstone to add some oxygen.
Ive reduced the photoperiod to 6 hours instead of 8
Ive wrapped black background film around 3 sides of my tank to remove any chance of light entering from the nearby windows..
I will be washing my filter weekly or biweekly to get rid of the diatoms and dosing of ferts will only be done when I test that levels are below what they need to be.


----------



## skratikans

I was reading through your thread and I too have been battling a cyano outbreak and I think I might cave in and go the Erythromycin route...does anyone know how this affects inverts such as shrimp?


----------



## skabooya

Ok im nervous. I havent seen any changes in my cyno. In fact it has now spread to my substrate. and is growing on new plant growth. plant growth has sped up because of excel overdosing. I have been underfeeding. No water changes until treatment is over.
There is only 1 treatment left (addition tomorrow).
what do i do!!! The treatment isint working!!!


----------



## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Ok im nervous. I havent seen any changes in my cyno. In fact it has now spread to my substrate. and is growing on new plant growth. plant growth has sped up because of excel overdosing. I have been underfeeding. No water changes until treatment is over.
> There is only 1 treatment left (addition tomorrow).
> what do i do!!! The treatment isint working!!!


That is the first time I have ever read about Erythromycin not working on cyno. Are you sure, it is cyno? Is Erythromycin an active ingredient in the Maracyn? Perhaps, the concentration of the Erythromycin in the Maracyn is too low vs plain Erythromycin. You are pretty much left with three options IMHO.

(1)Extend treatment all the while continuing with manual removal and cross your fingers.

(2)If an extended treatment or additional treatment does not work. Hydrogen peroxide via syringe directly on the areas of infection may help kill the cyno off. Make sure that you turn all your filters off if you try Hydrogen Peroxide.

(3)If all else fails, you may be left with no other option but to tear the tank down and start over. I know, this may not be appealing, but I really don't know what else you could do.


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## Wasserpest

Maracyn is just overpriced Erythromycin.

You can identify cyanobacteria easily, take a little bit between your fingers and smell it :eek5: should have a very strong earthy smell.

Patience is a virtue. Give it at least 10 days before you say "it's not working". Nothing good happens fast in planted tanks.

I tried hydrogen peroxide before and the cyano was laughing at me.


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## skabooya

i better get my hubby to buy another bottle then for a 2 week treatment. Im almost out. 1 bottle will last me a week.

Im thinking that the Maracyn has efficiently killed off my bacteria and now because all my levels are weird the cyno is loving it. Other algaes are comming back too.
Should i do a super clean on the tank taking out as much cyno as i can manually, including the substrate, and doing WC until the specs are where they should be BEFORE i do round 2 of the treatment??
Its really getting gross in there.

Homer, what else could it be. You saw the pics. Its green its slimy it has all the characteristics of cyno... can there be anything else that similar? ive looked at the algae libraries. Im pretty sure its cyno. All the pics ive seen look exactly the same.


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## skabooya

Just an observation i made. I have NO cyno growing in my low flow area over the deepest substrate in my tank. None at all. Although im sure its only a matter of time.
The plants in that area (dwarf sag) are growing wonderfully and are a nice green. They are shaded by an overhang.
Im wondering if my lighting period is still too much (6 hours) and if it should be reduced even furthur or if changing my bulbs will help. 

Im seariously considering just tearing the whole thing down and boiling everything including the substrate. Almost all the plants are garbage now anyways. They are smothered in cyno. The taiwan moss is nothing but cyno there is no way of saving it. The stargrass is garbage, no salvaging that either. Rotalia indica i may be able to save but it will be very iffy. My other dwarf sag plants will need to be chopped down to nearly nothing and i will need to depend on new growth. My anubias nana can just be scrubbed down. My sunset hygro is very weak although it may make it. It has no cyno on it. My lace java fern is nearly completely brown and saturated with cyno. My regular java fern is heading that way too.
I can maybe save a very small amount of my pennywort and i mean small. m.umbrosium is garbage. Lotus is withering away but it may be salvagable. Bananna plant is garbage. Its just a sad site.


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## skabooya

Just got off the phone with my fish go to lady from the lfs. Shes awsome btw and we were talking for a while and her tank had cyno 3 months ago and she had the problem for 6 months and was at witts end. We compared notes and she had the exact same problem as me. She tried everything and nothing worked. Or if it did it would only work for a day or two. So anyway she tried the new Fluval Lab series opti carb and she said within 3 days ALL of her cyno was gone. It has been gone for 3 months now. The product is not meant to get rid of bacterias but it worked for her. So at least i have another hope now. I will give that a try before i rip everything apart.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> ...Homer, what else could it be. You saw the pics. Its green its slimy it has all the characteristics of cyno... can there be anything else that similar? ive looked at the algae libraries. Im pretty sure its cyno. All the pics ive seen look exactly the same.


As Wasserpest posted, if it feels slimy between your fingers and has a strong musty(i.e., earthy) smell, then it is likely cyno. In the following forum someone posted their observations as it relates to their fiernce and unrelenting battle against cyno. Perhaps, some of that information may prove useful. 
http://www.canadianaquariumconnection.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3576

I am sorry that the Erythromycin did not work for you. I know that when I had this issue in my 10 gallon planted tank, one treatment with 
Erytrhomycin pretty much wiped it out and it never rematerialzed. The tank went downhill over time but this was not due to cyno. I kept the tank running to see if I could revive it, but unfortunately, I will likely tear it down and start over with a Mineralized Topsoil substrate as described in the substrate forum.


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## skabooya

*TAKE TWO!!!*

Tore down my 32gal, washed everything, then put everything back together. When i go the the lfs i will pick up that opti carb stuff to shove in my filter.

I re scaped the entire tank. The whole thing looks so clean now and i dont see any cyno anywhere BUT we shall see how long it takes to come back... if at all. (i hope it doesnt).

Its looking like i need some tall bushy plants in the back of the tank. Its pretty bare back there now. I threw out a lot of plant matter.
We shall see how things go from now on.


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## skabooya

So I tested my params today after dosing 5 mL of everything (NPK, and Fe) and 10mL of excel yesterday.
Today my results are as follows
PH: 6.8
Fe: 0.5
NO3: 15
So not too bad for just dosing but what this tells me is that my tank can handle a max of 5mL dosing once a week if there are no fish. I will test again next week before the WC to see what my levels are at.
I will be dosing excel (10mL) twice a week to see how that goes.

And as of now i see no Cyno...*crosses fingers, knocks on wood, throws salt behind back, etc etc etc* I will also be picking up the opti carb next time i go to the lfs for an extra whammy to the stuff.


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## skabooya

Thought i should post some pics of the new scape and cyno free tank.... for now.
Cleaning tank (fish are not too impressed)









FTS as of today









Still some algae left on the back glass and some on the front glass.... It was cloudy i couldnt see clearly to scrape everything off.


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## oldpunk78

great wood! good luck with the tank this time.


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## oldpunk78

oh, i was looking at the pic w/ the fish and it got me thinking... how do your rasboras get along w/ the angels? i just got a school of them and was thinking about getting a pair or angels next.


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## skabooya

My rasboras get along great with my angels. Although my angels are a pretty mild couple. They let the rummys steal food from their mouths. The harlequins stick with the rummys so they are in one big tight school.
Be careful though your angel pair might be the most mean fish you have ever come across, then again you could get a pair like mine. Their cichlids and therefore their personalities differ.


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## oldpunk78

skabooya said:


> Their cichlids and therefore their personalities differ.


that is what i'm worried about. thanks for the thought.


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## skabooya

Ok WTF! SEARIOUSLY!
Its comming back. Its just little bits here and there. Im gonna do another test on my tank to see where im at when i get home. 
Its my 2 year wedding anniversary today and we are going to the text town over to have dinner. When we go there im picking up that carbon stuff. Im hoping it will work. If they have more test kits im picking up the ones i dont have as well. *crosses fingers*

Rant: ITS MY FRIGGEN ANNIVERSARY I DONT WANT TO WORRY ABOUT THE FRIGGIN CYNO ON MY ANNIVERSARY! I WANT TO GO OUT WITH MY HUBBY AND HAVE FUN! friggin stupid cyno.
Rant complete.


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## skabooya

Well i put in the opti carb and its not doing a thing. All params are normal and my plants are growing nice again but so is the cyno. I really am out of ideas. 
I have a deep substrate at the back of the tank. Could anaerobic spots cause cyno?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Well i put in the opti carb and its not doing a thing. All params are normal and my plants are growing nice again but so is the cyno. I really am out of ideas.
> I have a deep substrate at the back of the tank. Could anaerobic spots cause cyno?


Well for what its worth and I know you may find this hard to believe, but sometimes it may just come down to being patient and letting the tank mature in order for stability to be achieved and for issues to work themselves out. I experienced similar issues as you with a 10 gallon tank that I set up. Things started out really well but went downhill after that. I had no explanation as the water parameters tested monthly indicated no problems and were within the range(s) that would be considered ideal for plant growth. At one point I was ready to tear the tank apart as it was really frustrating. The tank is just "now beginning" to come around and the Amano Shrimp are thriving - and this is a tank where all the fish previouly died one by one without any explanation other than they may have been fed contaminated feed or the stress of overstocking was too much for them.

You can read more about what happened in my journals.
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld


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## skabooya

Thanks Homer for the encouragement. Im trying to keep params under control and stable. My light is now on only 4-5 hours a day. Doing that the cyno seems to be undercontrol. Not growing but not receeding either just kinda there. Im hoping that in time it will go away. My sunset hygro completely melted away. My green crypt windetii melted after the move but is growng again (thinking about getting some more) and my anubias nana are doing awsome now. Java windlov are covered in cyno again but the regular java ferns arent. All my low flow areas are cyno free but high flow areas are suffering. We shall see how it goes in time. *sigh*


----------



## skabooya

spoke too soon cyno is taking over again and all params are within range. Did another big WC. Good news is i have no algae at all... just cyno and its everywhere again. Plants are suffering big time. Deficiency including brown leaves on the anubias nana Ive been dosing trace and Iron but nothing is helping. I have no idea what is going on. My fish are happy though angels bred again but daddy ate the babies after 5 days.
Sigh. Still waiting for the tank to mature but i feel like im fighting a loosing battle.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> spoke too soon cyno is taking over again and all params are within range. Did another big WC. Good news is i have no algae at all... just cyno and its everywhere again. Plants are suffering big time. Deficiency including brown leaves on the anubias nana Ive been dosing trace and Iron but nothing is helping. I have no idea what is going on. My fish are happy though angels bred again but daddy ate the babies after 5 days.
> Sigh. Still waiting for the tank to mature but i feel like im fighting a loosing battle.



I am sorry to hear that
When I read about persistent cyno like this though, I cannot help but wonder. Of all the tanks that I set up, it only became a problem in a 10 gallon. I was lucky that erythormycin killed it. It made me think why my 10 gallon and not the other tanks(same tap water, same water parameters, same frequency of water changes, etc.,). There were only two things different about the 10 gallon when I experienced the BGA outbreak. The 10 gallon was severely overstocked(I had a pleco in there that was a poop machine) and the food that I was giving the fish was different than what I was feeding the fish in my other tanks. Again, I cannot confirm 100%, but was it possible that dissolved organic waste was higher in the 10 gallon due to overstocking and due to the food being fed. And did this somehow contribute to the BGA outbreak that I experienced. I don't have the answer, just questions.

Could be a long shot and may not even be the issue, but what are your tank stocking levels like and what kind of food and how much are you feeding the fish?


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## skabooya

Yup ive been doing tons of research and there are new thoughts comming out about dissolved organics in combination with NPK being out of whack (not always low N) and all this in combo with seeing deficiencies in plants. Ive also read about anaerobic bacteria being a factor for BGA. And yes my plants are stalled there are nutrient deficiencies but im dosing and keeping params in check HOWEVER i still havent found a test kit for P and K im thinking that my problems may lie here. I added the opti carb to help with the dissolved organics but its not doing anything to combat the cyno. I do notice that my particular cyno is growing only in high flow areas and against the back glass and front glass where the water constantly hits. As a test i moved some of my java ferns to the side of the tank with no cyno and it seems to be leaving my java ferns which were infested before. I moved my lighting up to 6 hours now and have so far seen no effect. The best thing ever is my tank is completely algae free. My only issue is the cyno bacteria. Id rather deal with algae i think.
I am underfeeding my fish now (since cyno began) My stock list is as follows (I was told before it was fine but im thinking now its a bit overstocked for a low tech)
2 adult angels (breed regularly)
1 german blue ram
8ish? harlequin rasboras (havent counted for a while)
8ish? rummynose tetras (havent counted for a while)
4 ottos (at last count, I did buy 6 but oh well)
Nothing i have been doing has worked so far and would only have been a temporary fix anyway so im trying to find out what is missing in my tank. (Detective work). What frustrates me is that i have had many tanks before this one and have never had a cyno problem and bairly ever had algae issues and if there was an issue it took care of itself after a WC and a scrub. I never dosed anything in my other tanks and i had plain epoxy coated gravel and a very high fish load. Now im doing things the "right" way and i have huge problems. *Sigh* so frustrated!

Just a list of stuff ive already tried:
Maracyn
Blackout 
High flow
Increasing oxygen in water
ODing on excel and spot dosing
Large WC's
Opti Carb
manual removal
low nitrate was not a problem because after testing mine was very high


----------



## oldpunk78

if i were you, i would started over like a month (or two) ago. i couldn't take the frustration.


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## skabooya

I did start over... kind of. But even if i did the same problem would arise so i need to figure out what is going on in my tank and what i am doing wrong. Its frustrating yes but its also a learning experience since nothing common is working. I am defying all sure fire cures to beating cynobacteria.


----------



## adamsaulnier

Now, I've only got a 10 gallon so I'm not sure how much harder it is to beat BGA in a 32 gallon.. but what I did with success was a blackout for 3 days (with an airstone), then a couple of days later I dosed Maracyn (not maracyn 2 or plus) with active ingredient Erythromycin (or however you spell it) for 5 days straight with no days in between for water changes. I have found that it did not affect my biofilter so I wouldn't worry too much about that. Also, I dosed the stuff when the lights had finished being on for their 8 hours that day and it had been left overnight. Did you dose maracyn before your photoperiod or after?

With my method, I killed the BGA just as December started and I haven't seen it since.

Also, not sure if this also changes things, but since then I have switched back to using RO water that I can put directly into the tank without having to worry about treating.. I think the tap water I was using for water changes (when I got lazy) might have been a source of contamination.


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## skabooya

I dosed Maracyn in addition to black out. I followed the instructions on the bottle. Nothing worked. I tried the airstones previous to the maracyn but it actually made things worse. I did my WC once the treatment was over and not while i was dosing. I ended up tearing everything apart doing a super clean and put everything back. The cyno is now back. Its not my tap water because i have no issues in my other tanks. Although the 20 is now torn down and the 4 gal was torn down but is back up again for my classroom pet fish which is now home with me for christmas break. Our tap water is awsome here. Ive had it tested many times and its always neutral to slightly acidic (6.8-7), soft, clear, and all tests at the lfs showed everything as a blank slate perfect for dosing anything and bringing the water to whatever you wanted it to be at... the lfs lady was actually jealous lol.

OH and to answer Homers question earlier (sorry i missed that), I feed a varied diet of cichlid pellets, discus morcils pellets, staple flake food and freeze dried blood worms


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## oldpunk78

skabooya said:


> I did start over... kind of. But even if i did the same problem would arise so i need to figure out what is going on in my tank and what i am doing wrong. Its frustrating yes but its also a learning experience since nothing common is working. I am defying all sure fire cures to beating cynobacteria.



i meant like throwing out plants/substrate. bleach everything and starting over.

the only possible reason to keep doing what you're doing would be to find a new solution. i can agree with that, but i hate a constant struggle with something that is supposed to be fun and enjoyable.


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## skabooya

Oh god no. I went through so much trouble getting that substrate and those plants i have left and spent so much money im not just going to throw everything out. The fish i bought were also overpriced so im not getting rid of anything until it dies or is completely covered in cyno. Its a pain in the bum but im curious now and want to know what is wrong with my tank.


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## oldpunk78

so you tested the no3 and it was not low, right(a little high)? the one thing that i noticed that you haven't tried is dosing more kno3. i might give that a try... i mean you've tried everything else. why not at this point? are you sure that your tests are accurate? i would give it try...

sorry about the previous post, i forgot where you are...


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## skabooya

not a little high it was a lot high, like off the charts high. I would say it was pretty accurate, i tested my other tanks and tap water and i ended up comparing my results with the results from the lfs and they were the same. Since that test ive been doing massive WC to keep my params in check, doing pretty good so far  
The only ferts they sell here are a general NPK liquid in a bottle. Im wondering if i need to go powdered. I just signed up at barreport.com to see what they say.


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## skabooya

Ok time for another update.
My plants were growing good for oh... 2 days ish after the major clean. They have become stalled since then and were stalled before. The cyno came back but not as bad as before. It did not grow in the low flow areas only the high flow and mostly on my back and front glass. This tells me that lower light and lower flow may help me out quite a bet SO i lowered my filter output and i reduced my lighting period again back to 5 hours.
I did a major clean on my tank again last night and sucked out as much cyno as possible, in the process doing another 75% WC.
I then dosed NPK (the crap i have), Iron and trace as well as excel. During this process i did a rescape because i was not happy with my wood at all.
So when i woke up this morning i smelled something really rank like vomit, and when i walked into my living room (trying to find the sourse of the smell) i heard drip drip drip. I look at my tank and about 3 gals of water is missing. Im thinking HOLY F...ish. It was actually my filter that overflowed, i have no idea how and the water ended up on my floor soaking it behind the fish tank. My hubbies computer is directly under this tank on the bottom floor. I ran downstairs to see if anything leaked through. Nope nothing ... yet so i grabbed towels and the shamwow that i recently bought to suck up as much water as possible. I noticed my filter was turned on high which was weird since i just turned it to low. So i set it back to low and the filter was fine. But it has never overflowed before even when it was set on high. Grrrrr. When my hubby came home we moved the ceiling tiles to see the damage done... nothing. All the water somehow was absorbed into the capret and underlay. So for 3 hours i was trying to get up as much water as possible and then i sprayed everything with fabreeze. I found a dead fish back there too. What a day.
ANYWAY,
I was reading on another forum about surface ripple and how you need a good amount of it for 02 absorbtion. Well now this got me thinking. On my other tanks ive never had any algae problems and the surface ripple was always high. My aunts pond also has a lot of surface ripple and her pond was crystal clear from the start unlike others that only have a waterfall or a spitter she had 3 spitters and a waterfall in a 180gal pond. Cyno thrives in low 02 environments so again Im back to adding 02 into my tank. I need to pick up a powerhead for my tank and have it pointed at the surface to get a decent amount of agetation the problem is the smallest one i found was $50 sheesh! SO to assist in surface ripple im leaving the water level low in this tank so the water comming out of the filter has a long way to fall. It does make the entire surface of the water move unlike before. 
I also need to increase my plant mass to assist in nutrient absorbtion. I know this because my nitrate is unusually high but my plants are stalled. However i do have a lot of slow growers. My stem plants are all pretty much gone So i need more.
I have also ordered some dry ferts so that i can follow tom barrs method more closely. 
So in planning this was the last WC for quite some time. I will be dosing as per the non co2 method from Tom Barr, Increasing surface ripple and trying to get my plant mass back up.

Im hoping these things will help out with my cyno problem as i dont have any other algaes in my tank currently.


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## skabooya

OMG!!! Who knew death would be such an uplifting phenomon. I added an internal filter (Tetra Whisper) that my mom had for my brothers turtle tank. I know its crap but it was an experiment and only temporary anyway so that i could increase surface ripple and thus 02 absorption. WELL I looked at my tank this morning and guess what i see....
DYING CYNOBACTERIA!!!! Near the surface of the tank its turning all brown and you can see its not as thick in other parts of the tank!!! WOOOOOO!!!
I also checked my nitrate levels and they are at 15ppm which is a huge change from just a couple of days ago, it was at nearly 50 after a WC and i was doing weekly 50% WC. So Wow i am so happy its finally starting to go away BUT im not going to celebrate until its all gone.
I ordered a Korialia 1 for this tank to keep the waters moving and i will remove the whisper. WOOOO!!! sooo happy


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## oldpunk78

adding a lot more flow and water ripple in my tank is really helping my with the bga problem i was having.

hope it goes away this time!


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## Hilde

*forgot location out of states*



oldpunk78 said:


> i meant like throwing out plants/substrate. bleach everything and starting over.
> 
> the only possible reason to keep doing what you're doing would be to find a new solution. i can agree with that, but i hate a constant struggle with something that is supposed to be fun and enjoyable.


It can still come back after you break the tank down. For algae is present when there is an imbalance. The lights is the engine. So you lower the lights. Second check the co2 levels. Inconsistant level of Co2 is 1 of the main causes. So you increase Co2 and spritz excel on plants daily. The excel gets rid of a lot of algae types but it won't keep it from coming back. Third check the nitrates. I add nitrates with with Spectracide stump remover. It is helping to keep the BBA at bay. If it get real bad take the plants out to cut off algae parts and spritz them with excel. Then there is the black out to consider, which may cause loss of plants. 

Once the tank gets balance then it gets easy. Ask Tex Gal and Hoppy.

I haven't gotten there yet. Sometimes I think I will just stick with rhizome plants. For I can take them out and spritz them will excel.

_Nitrates 10 - 20 ppm is best according to rex grigg, http://www.rexgrigg.com/. So your nitrates are fine. 
_
In the absence of light plants actually release CO2 and aborb O2. Because of this, there's a risk at night of the fish becoming both O2-depleted, and CO2-poisoned, depending on the conditions in the tank. This is why many people run airstones at night. According to lauraleellbp

I see your are quite a distance for petstores. I too am, so I buy flourish exell at EBay. Also found a master test kit there.


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## Hilde

What a fantastic layout!! What did you end up doing for ferts? 

You have low light but the photons from the bulbs must be what the plants need. 
http://www.barrreport.com/general-p...ting-bulbs-plants-2.html?highlight=wavelength

As for the wisper internal filter, I wish I had that 1. For it is so easy to hide.

Forgive me for going on an on. It just made me so angry that someone told you to throw your plants away. 

Glad to hear thing are on a upside for you. Perhaps now the tank is balanced.


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> rotala indica pearling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> rotala roundifolia pearling


The pictures are missing. I wanted so much to see the rotala indica pearling. I have it.


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## skabooya

Thank you Hilde.
The whisper is only temporary, I ordered a Korialia 1 (400gph) to aid in the flow of the tank. I dont expect things to happen quickly but i do see a small difference with the whisper and AquaClear filters i have running currently.
Everything else seems to be in check. My ferts should be comming in later this week or possibly early next week as well as my K1. 
I changed my layout slightly. I didnt like the placement of the smaller piece of driftwood to the right so i ended up moving it behind the larger piece. It makes the whole thing look chunkier. I also put ALL of my dwarf sag on the right side of the tank on a hill that i built with the substrate. In the right back corner i put my red tiger lotus and against the back of the tank going down the hill on the right side i want to put crypt windetii red. I want taiwan moss growing all over the wood, anubias nana and petit growing in front of the wood, rotalia indica and roundifolia growing in a big bunch behind the wood OR a lewdegia species And in the back left corner i want vals nana, it would be nice if it spread too. I want my m.umbrosium to thrive again, its a beautiful plant and i want it as my midground. I will take a pic of my tank when things are looking a bit better, right now its all green again with cyno... and a little bit of brown (dead cyno) near the surface


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## Hilde

Sounds like you are doing what Tex Gal does, move things until you get it like you like. Moving things can also cause problems, so you might want to do a water change afterwards.

Glad you didn't give up. I have seen tanks of experienced people get algae too. It usually happens in the beginning or if the Co2 is fluctuating. According the aaronnorth the lights are the engine. They affect the Co2.

Simple test to find Co2 in the tank:
Testing Best in the morning , for the CO2 at its highest and pH at the lowest level.
take a cup of water out of the aquarium


 test pH  
 add an air stone to the cup of water
 After 10 -15 min. take another pH reading.  
 difference = amount of CO2 you have. If no change filter or an air stone is driving off all the surplus CO2 or not enough plants or ph is to high. The ph can go down to 5.5, according to Hoppy.



Graph for Co2

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html


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## skabooya

Wow i didnt know about that test. Thanks Hilde! and yes i did a WC after i moved things around


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## Homer_Simpson

The best and most accurate way to test your c02 levels is to get a drop checker like this. It is more accurate than charts and anything else, FYI.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/Drop-Checker-CO2...14&_trkparms=72:1215|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

However, if you plan to go low tech, c02 rates are really irrelevant unless you plan to inject c02. IME, Excel dosing for carbon is sufficient for a low tech setup and c02 testing is not necessary,


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## skabooya

Yes my plans are for low tech and no i dont want to use C02 but it is still a neat way of reading c02 levels.


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## Hilde

Yes, Homer is correct! It is not necessary to check Co 2 in a low tech tank.

Slow growth rate thus the fish waste alone is enough to feed the plants. If more light added Co2 would become limiting and allow algae to grow better  
A lower light level is required, generally about 1.5 to 2w/gal is good.
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/433-non-co2-methods.html?

I have found out the wpg ruled is based on T12. They don't reflect all of their light to the bottom of the tank.

My mind is just so much on Co2, for all of the tanks I see, even low light, that have luscious growth have diy Co2. Thus even though it isn't necessary it adds to the thickness of the growth.

mizu-chan's tank is an example: 
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd297/pishes/20g/DSCF9816.png


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## Homer_Simpson

You are right Hilde, c02 is always a good thing even for low tech tanks. However, check out my signature(low tech tanks). I found that I got explosive plant growth using Seachem Excel Daily instead of C02 in my low tech tanks. Also, when I did try DIY C02 in my tanks where I had Dwarf Aquatic frogs, they did not seem to like it. The frog spent most of its time at the top and eventually died. People can say that this did not have anything to do with the c02, but it happened each and every time I put another frog in and it only stopped when I removed the DIY c02 and just used Excel. Now the frog in one of those tanks has been in there for 8 months without problems and spends most of his time on the bottom of the tank, only coming up for air once in a while.


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## Hilde

I have read that excel is harmful to some fish. Thus I wonder if it is the reason I lost 1 of my cory's. Especially since it was 1 of the fish listed that is sensitive to excel.

Just another example of nothing is written in stone when it comes to taking care of living things. So I just start slow with what ever I dose. Still I experiment with the substrate. Guess I am a little like Brain, avatar.


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## skabooya

Well it seems i spoke too soon. Where the cyno was dying is now being taken over by more cyno. It just grew right over the dead stuff WTF!?!


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## Hilde

So your tank was up for about 6 months before the bacteria started blooming? Things go wrong about this time. For the plants have used up the nutrients they had when planted.

Here is another idea. How about adding Bio - Spira. bacteria? It helps add friendly bacteria to the tank. Tis an idea I got from Rex Griggs. It is to help cycling. You tank is not a well seasoned tank, so perhaps it would help balance the eco system. 

Also you might check the ph and Co2. Fluctuations help algae grow.
The ph can go down to 5 without hurting the fish, via Hoppy. 

I noticed you mention order for saltwater tank, and was wondering how many tanks do you have?

Link about causes and methods to rid algae:
 http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...558#post435558


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> We have very soft acidic water here and absolutely no mineral deposits anywhere from calcium.
> 
> Epsom salts contain calcium? i need to look this up more.


I have very soft water too. Also my ph of tap water is 8.4. This means the water has been treated with phosphates. I have experimented with Epsom salts and baking soda. I had a ram die after adding the Epsom salts. The baking soda raises the ph and the Kh. After dosing with excel my ph was 6. After adding the baking soda the ph was 7.4. I didn't measure what I put in then. Now I use a baby measurer to be more accurate as to what I put in.

Rams don't deal with rapid changes well, thus the change of a compound probably killed him.


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## skabooya

I noticed something with my cyno. I was so depressed to see the cyno covering the dead cyno that i just didnt want to see my tank. I left the light off for 2 days and the cyno is dying in mass now. Its crazy. 
So I guess my lighting is playing a huge part in the cyno, which is strange because a blackout didnt work before and im not doing a blackout now im just leaving my lights off.
What does this mean? Should i just leave my lights on for 3 or 4 hours a day? Wont that hurt my plants? I dont know what to dooooooo!!!!!

On a brighter note my dry ferts came in but im waiting for my powerhead to come in so i can have everything setup before i start dosing weekly with the right stuff.

Oh and hilde my ph is 6.8 no idea on Co2 but i dont use C02 anyway other than excel and that is bairly ever until i read it was supposted to help with cyno but since then ive stopped.


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> So I guess my lighting is playing a huge part in the cyno, which is strange because a blackout didnt work before and im not doing a blackout now im just leaving my lights off.
> What does this mean? Should i just leave my lights on for 3 or 4 hours a day? Wont that hurt my plants? I dont know what to dooooooo!!!!!


Since were avoiding the tank, does that mean you didn't feed the fish? Fish can go without any food for at least a week. I posted a thread and found some had gone a month without food and lived. Less food means less ammonia. Perhaps adding some bacteria with something like Bio-spria or Stress zyme + biological filtration booster would help. Especially you used Maracyn which will also kill other bacteria in your tank

To answer your question about the lights we need more info about the bulbs. You may have posted the info but this a long thread to look through.



skabooya said:


> Oh and hilde my ph is 6.8 no idea on Co2 but i dont use Co2 anyway other than excel and that is bairly ever until i read it was supposted to help with cyno but since then ive stopped.


There is always Co2 in a tank. I just keep forgetting that this a low light tank, for it doesn't look like most of the low light tanks do. With low light tanks Co2 is usually low anyways. 

Is this how you treated your tank with Maracyn? This worked for someone, whom unfortunately I don't remember:

200mg/10gal the initial dose, then after 24 hrs a partial WC and 100mg/10gal, and repeated that for another 3 times, for a total of 5 doses.

I have been having issues with BGA(common name for cyno) recently and after reading doubled my KNO3 dosing
discuscardscorys Planted tank

A website on cynobacteria:
http://naturalaquariums.com/plantedtank/0608.html

Don't worry about the algae using the ferts. The ferts will help the plants outgrow the algae. There is always a competition between the plants and algae for the nutrients in the water. This has worked for others.


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## skabooya

Hilde: yes i still fed the fish during that time.
yes i did post the info about the bulbs before. 2x20 Normal Output fluorescent stock lighting (1 pink plant grow bulb, 1 daylight bulb for bringing out the colours of fish, it also goes into the spectrum for plants to grow)
I treaded my tank with Maracyn according to the instructions on the bottle. I compared to others who were doing the same thing and the dosing schedule was the same. You are not supposted to do WC when dosing maracyn because the bacteria (cyno) can become immune to it, same thing works with any bacteria and antibiotics. WC only once treatment is complete.
My nitrate was very high and so that was not the problem of my cyno. It just meant that my plants were not uptaking any nutrients and they were stalled in growth (visible). This tells me they are missing something, fert wise. I purchased KNO3 and KH2P04 and i have Fe and Trace (Amazon Elements).

I finally got my Hydor K1 today in the mail. Put it in my tank and wow. I never realized it was so gentle. Its really moving stuff around there. I have it fixed to the back glass pointed towards the front glass on an angle so it deflects to the other side of the tank and its also pointing slightly upwards to create surface agitation. We shall see how things go with the cyno after this and proper dosing weekly.

To answer your question from before I have:
32gal planted currently
20gal recently torn down (thinking about fancy goldfish; red caps, black moore, panda; just 2 or 3 fish)
4gal temporarly put back up for paradise fish (classroom pet, his name is Fuego)
10gal empty (thinking about a betta sorrority)
28gal saltwater tank (all i have right now is the tank and ive been saving up money to buy the necessary equiptment)
At one time i did have a 100gal (I still regret selling it but i couldnt put it anywhere in my current house  )
I would like to get a 77gal tank for discus in the future


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## Hilde

Well perhaps things will get better now that you have the ferts. Perhaps adding more iron would help the plants out grow the algae. Since your nitrates are good possible adding something like 4 ml of potassium sulfate and 2 ml of potassium nitrate beneficial to encourage the growth. 

Perhaps posting a thread at this forum would help, for a lot of experienced people post here:
http://www.barrreport.com

Did the Crypt v Balansae survive? I have 2. Found they need good current to grow and will melt if moved. Sometimes they come back after they are moved.

I am battling BBA at present. I have been adding *potassium nitrate*, flourish, excel, and peroxide. It is starting to go away. My tap water is yuk!! For not only is it soft, it has a high ph, thus probably threated with phosphates, etc... I feel it is getting better because the plants are starting to get stronger and thus absorbing the nutrients before the algae does. Hopefully this will happen in your tank too, soon!!


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## skabooya

Hilde I am already a member at www.barrreport.com its a really good forum. Its because of them i am doing what i am doing currently. 
I will start my dosing this saturday. 

Yes my crypt balansae survived. It only has 2 small leaves though but we shall see what happens now with better ferts and higher flow although i think my tank could have done with more flow. 400gph from the HK1 is not really impressing me.

I already mixed my solution of ferts according to a discussion and plans from barrreport.com I will be dosing 10mls of my solution per week. I have enough solution for approx 50 weeks. Nice eh? We shall see how it goes with that. I may have to increase or decrease depending on how my plants do. Also Fe and traces will be dosed on sunday OR a few hours after i dose with my dry fert solution. This way my dry ferts and Fe wont mix which ive read is bad because it wont allow some components to dissolve in the water for plant uptake. 

I used to have BBA but i OD' on Excel and it all went away (turned an orangey red) and it hasent come back since. About 2-3 months now.


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> I used to have BBA but i OD' on Excel and it all went away (turned an orangey red) and it hasent come back since. About 2-3 months now.


I am probably not dosing enough of excel to get rid it of it quickly, for I have some corkscrew valls which will melt if I add to much. Thus been dosing with excell and peroxide. It is disappearing slowly, though. Only 1 true black spot and some long gray hairs on valls.

About how long was it after you set the tank up that you started getting the cyno?

Yeh, dry ferts are really cheap in the long run. That is why they probably don't sell them in the stores.


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## skabooya

set up was beginning of january 08 and cyno October end/november beginning ish so about 10 months.


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## Hilde

At another forum I found this info and thought it pertains to your problem:
Lack of macronutrient in water column can cause algae, for plants will struggle to consume N and P. 

Joe Faria Aquascapingworld
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/for...ne-discussions/309-methods-prevent-algae.html

Hey, I remember you made a comment that you weren't going to add diy Co2, for you didn't have the time to watch the ph. 

Tis something I have been concerned about too, for my water is very soft.
Now no longer fearful for read:
pH you can get with CO2 down 5.5
Hoppy
 
pH drop won't affect the fish. For the pH drop caused by the CO2 is transparent because it has no corresponding change to carbonates, hardness,TDS.([FONT=URW Gothic L, sans-serif]GH Mg -Ca -K and KH). 
[/FONT]imeridian at plantedtank.net

In the wild pH changes are caused by changes in the kH (carbonate hardness) and TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) in the water. These changes can cause osmotic shock to the fish if they are large enough. Most all fish can handle a bigger pH change due to hardness than many people think.
http://theplantedtankfaq.com/CO2_FAQ.html


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## Homer_Simpson

Any updates Skabooya?


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## skabooya

Updates? Yea sure... added the HK1 and started dosing properly and guess what......... no change. Im wondering if it is the bulbs now.


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## Hilde

If it is the bulbs it can't because the wattage. Many use the daylight bulbs and have great plant growth so it can't be that 1. Possible the plant grow bulb has some blue photons that is promoting the bacteria. How about trying taking out the plant grow bulb for a few days and see what happens?

Post the manufactures and numbers on the bulbs and I'll do some research on them.

ER9 has found someone that works better than myacin (erithromycin) http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/80102-i-found-another-bga-killer.html


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## skratikans

I had the same problem with cyano..this is what worked for me:
block ALL light to the tank for at least 5 days and add nitrogen, I added 1/8tsp of stump remover for my 30gal and it did the trick. Before that I used erythromycin for 7days and it seemed resistant to it. Now, I Always check my nitrogen levels in the tank, since adding nitrogen I have never had an outbreak since


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## Hilde

skratikans said:


> I added 1/8tsp of stump remover for my 30gal and it did the trick.




Stump remover is KNO3. The brand by Spectracide has been recommended as the best.
 
I  have been having issues with BGA recently and after reading doubled my KNO3 dosing I got rid of it.
discuscardscorys

Nitrogen worked for 1 and KNO3 worked for another. Conclusion is concentrating on getting the plants growing with ferts and adjusting the lights keeps algae under control. This worked for me and complexity in dealing with BBA. For me the key ingredient was KNO3.


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## oldpunk78

have you tried this stuff yet?

http://www.ultralifedirect.com/HTML/blue-green_remover.htm

it's worked well at getting rid of my bga problems. although, it has been mentioned that if you can't find the reason you have it in the 1st place, it will just keep coming back...


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## skabooya

Hey! Its been a while since Ive been on. Ive been working a lot lately.
I dont want to jinx it but things are getting better. There is still a small amount of cyno around. The water needs to be changed once a week(30-40%), no ifs ands or butts. Filter needs to be cleaned twice a week because cyno collects in it like mad. Im dosing KNO3 and KH2PO4 10mls weekly with Excel, Iron, and Amazon Elements

My plants are still not growing and now i have diatoms everywhere. I dont mind diatoms as much as cyno though.

Now im wondering if i should increase my dosing to 20mls a week because my plants are just not growing. And i mean not growing at all, stalled.


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## Hilde

So glad to hear you haven't given up!!:thumbsup:

I lost most of 3 groups of plants before I got BBA under control. I am hooked on plants. I love my garden.

For newbies I suggest java fern, anarchin, and caves, for this is an expensive hobby. After I reached $300 I stopped counting. Now that I have been laid off from work I am trying to not buy anything for the aquarium but it is very hard. 

Reat at http://www.badmanstropicalfish.com/forum/index.php?topic=15003.0 
Diatoms are carbon-fixers so are contributors to organic carbon. 

I wonder if there is way to decrease the carbon without continuous water changes? I wonder if you added a gallon of spring water with water change if it would help? 

Also at this site read:
If your water has “low” soluble silicates (<1-2ppm for FW, in my personal usage), a freshly set new tank with all new water may well develop an unsightly brown film on the glass. 

Thus I wonder if adding liquid bacteria, like Bio-Spira by MarineLand, would help balance the ecosystem. 

Anybody know if silicates promotes cyno and BBA algae?


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## skabooya

Hilde ive been in the hobby since i was 12. Im 26 now I am not a newbie. Yes there is still lots to learn, as with anything no matter the profession or experience level. This is my 6th? tank and only because I keep upgrading and then downsizing them to try new fish and new scapes. 
I am in no way giving up  I want to figure out whats wrong with my tank. Its not lighting and its definitely an imbalance. Im just trying to find the right balance. I dont know why this particular tank is so fussy. Ive never had this issue and ive always had beautiful tanks, except this one.
Ive added liquid bacteria but it does nothing.

I will take a pic when i have time. Im teaching a whole new group of kids so ive been pretty busy the last couple of weeks. You may need to wait a few days.


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## Hilde

Oh, I thought you were a newbie because of you idea that it might be the lights giving you problems. 

I am a newbie. Considering Hoppy, whom is doing everything scientific, is having chronic problems with BBA I definitely think the water is the cause of nutrient imbalances more so than the lights. I know BBA is not the same as BGA but I feel it unique that he is having a chronic problem with it. Perhaps the water company has done something different with your water? 

That is good you are busy at a time when so many are being laid off.


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## Complexity

I have not read the whole thread so please forgive me for not knowing the background of the situation. But I wanted to comment on two things.

BBA is caused by having too little CO2. It _can_ be a function of too much light, meaning the balance between light and CO2 is off. Then the answer would be to increase the CO2 or decrease the light.

BGA is frequently caused by not changing the water often enough or changing too little when it is changed. While Phosphates are the culprit, you have to look at the sources of the phosphates which can be animal waste.

Generally, BGA can be easily knocked out with erythromycin. Look at the bacterial meds at your LFS for one that contains erythromycin. That will kill your BGA.

However, that does not resolve the problem and it actually creates a secondary problem. The good news is that both of these things can be fixed in the same way.

1. Get organic waste out of the tank. Yes, organic waste does break down to become fertilizer for the plants, but it appears you have more waste than the plants can take up. So you need to clean some out. Vacuum the gravel to get some of the waste back out. You don't have to plunge the hose into the substrate, but be sure to get the top layer of waste cleaned out.

You will also need to vacuum the substrate to remove the dead BGA or it will rebound by becoming organic waste for another round of BGA.

2. Increase filtration and/or water movement. BGA likes stagnant water. Increasing the water flow will help prevent BGA from coming back.

3. Make sure you are doing 50% water changes every week. I cannot stress this enough. Organic waste isn't just in the substrate, but it's in the water, as well. Don't worry that your water has phosphates because if the water was the problem, you'd get BGA in all of your tanks. Plus, replacing water with X amount of phosphates with the same (but cleaner) water with the same X amount of phosphates won't make things worse, and it will make things better by cleaning out organic waste, nitrates, etc. It's also very good for the fish.

The BBA is harder to get rid of than the BGA. Pretty much, to get rid of the BGA, do a good cleaning and water change, treat with erythromycin, followed by more good cleanings and water changes. To be sure it doesn't come back, increase water flow and water changes.

I'd tackle the BGA first. BBA will not kill fish, but BGA can. Once you get the BGA under control, then focus on the BBA.

If you can point me to where you've posted the details of the lighting, ferts and all, I'll be happy to read it to catch up on this thread. Or if you'll post the info again, that would be great. With that info, I will see what may help with the BBA problem.

And, yes, I have BBA in my 29g at the moment, but I know why and will get rid of it as soon as I get my CO2 straightened out. So don't let that deter you. I've had both, BBA and BGA, and have been successful in getting rid of them without harming plants, fish or inverts. I'll do my best to help out, if I can.


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## Hilde

Just came upon this info:
too much phosphate interferes with the metabolism of vital iron and disrupts the photosynthesis process. 

Also DWalsted, author of El Natural style, told me that with a new tank you have to change water weekly. Perhaps this is what you are going through due medication killing bacteria.


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## skabooya

Hey Complexity. 
I dont have a BBA problem, I have a BGA problem. And yes I have tried everything you mentioned and none of it worked. I do large WC weekly 50%+ to try and combat it.
What was recently going on with my tank was I was regularly adding dry ferts 10ml weekly of KH2PO4 and KNo3 as well as iron and Amazon Elements and some Flourish Excel. After doing this for a month and a bit the cyno was gone but then i got a bad case of Diatoms. 
Very recently as in the last week, I pulled up some of my plants and WOW the gunk they had around them was gross. I shook them all off and siphoned the water and the substrate. Ive been using filter floss in my filter as well as a sponge. Ive been cleaning the sponge weekly and replacing the filter floss almost daily and its just brown catching all the gunk that ive been scraping off daily (diatoms, etc).
Ive reduced my fish load by giving some stuff away in hopes that it reduces the organics in the tank. I now have: 2 adult angels, 8 rummynose tetras, and 8 harlequin rasboras. Thats it. I used to have about 10 of each before (of the tetras and rasboras), 6 ottos (they died, one was really really old), 2 german blue rams???

Im also trying to increase my plant load to what it was before so i am trying to aquire some fast growing plants to help suck up the excess nutrients.

Im not going to stop dosing ferts because it stopped my cyno when nothing else would. Im continuing with my large WC weekly.

My lights are 2x20 watt Normal Output Fluorescent bulbs. I have an AC30? I believe on my tank as well as a Hydor K1 for extra flow (purchased just for the cyno outbreak i had).

Believe me when i say that ive tried everything and only now is it going away. *crosses fingers* My big issue now are the diatoms but im not too worried about those.

Thanks for the help any new suggestions will be greatly appreciated


----------



## skabooya

Hilde said:


> Just came upon this info:
> too much phosphate interferes with the metabolism of vital iron and disrupts the photosynthesis process.
> 
> Also DWalsted, author of El Natural style, told me that with a new tank you have to change water weekly. Perhaps this is what you are going through due medication killing bacteria.


That could very well be what happend Hilde and now im going through a new tank algae cycle thing. The phosphate makes perfect sence to me esp since i just unearthed a very large amount of *crap* hiding under my java ferns that my Python/Marina couldnt suck up.

On a side note, my plants are still not growing, they are completely stalled.


----------



## Hilde

Glad to hear things are getting better!! I'll keep my fingers crossed too.


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## skabooya

Heres a blurry pic of my tank as of 5 min ago. Ignore the green javaferns on the right, they were just added today. I know they have low nutrient export but anything i can get my hands on right now is better than nothing. They came from a cold water tank in my office so these guys will probably wilt and brown and have dieoff before growing back again.


----------



## Hilde

skabooya said:


> Ignore the green javaferns on the right. They will probably wilt and brown and have dieoff before growing back again.


Perhaps not, for it is a very hardy plant. I have had 3 versions java fern. The windlow version seemed to be the only 1 that was finicky.


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## skabooya

im hoping not but my others ones from the same tank all melted when i put them into this 32gal. Im just going on experience.
Im wating to hear from a guy from another forum so i can get some more anubias, green hygro, giant hygro, and asian ambula


----------



## Complexity

I think you're on the right track by continuing to dose the ferts and increasing the plant mass. Even if you have to dump a bunch of hornwort in there (this is what I have done) just to keep the plant mass up. As your new plants arrive, you can pull it back out. It's cheap and grows extremely fast so you don't need to start out with very much. But you definitely need to increase the plant mass. That tank doesn't have many plants at all!

Also, try to create a balance of fast growing plants with the slow growers. Plants like anubias and java fern do not use much fertilizer so you need other plants that do to keep it in balance.

The muck you described finding fits in with the causes of BGA. Some muck is good so don't plunge the vacuum in deeply. Leave what's under the surface alone. That is for the plants. But anything on the surface and caught around the plants and decor does need to get cleaned up. Be sure to remove all decaying plant matter, too.

I think if you keep doing what you're doing while adding a lot of fast growing stems, things should turn around for you. :smile:


----------



## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> im hoping not but my others ones from the same tank all melted when i put them into this 32gal. Im just going on experience.
> Im wating to hear from a guy from another forum so i can get some more anubias, green hygro, giant hygro, and *asian ambula*


If you are ever interested let me know. Asian Ambulia is one of those plants that literally grows like a weed in my 40 gallon high tech tank and I find myself trimming it weekly. I usually end up trashing it as I cannot trim it faster than I can sell it locally or even give it away. I will send it to you for free. I am not sure how well it will survive shipment though.


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## skabooya

Thanks. Yes my plant mass has diminished dramatically since the cyno outbreak. I was telling the truth when i said it choked everything to death. Im starting to see some growth today on my brazilian pennywort since adding excel daily (1ml), and some on my java moss YAY!. I have some vals nana on the way; 7 plants, and Im waiting to hear from another member on another forum about some hygro (green and giant).
Homer YGPM


----------



## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Thanks. Yes my plant mass has diminished dramatically since the cyno outbreak. I was telling the truth when i said it choked everything to death. Im starting to see some growth today on my brazilian pennywort since adding excel daily (1ml), and some on my java moss YAY!. I have some vals nana on the way; 7 plants, and Im waiting to hear from another member on another forum about some hygro (green and giant).
> Homer YGPM


GYPM skabooya, my plants are due for a trim Sunday, so I can get the plants shipped out by Sunday if you want.


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## skabooya

Homer is an planted angel. Your awsome man.


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## Complexity

Hate to be a party pooper, but Excel melts vals. Sometimes people have reported that the vals have adjusted over time, but they will melt for sure at first.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Homer is an planted angel. Your awsome man.


Thanks, you're making me blush :icon_redf


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## skabooya

yea i know excel melts vals. Excel is supposted to melt moss too but because im adding it at 1ml per day which is nearly nothing my moss is actually growing now. Many people still add excel to their tanks with vals, they just need to be careful and really watch their vals. If i have too then i will reduce my dosage until the vals are ok and if i really have too I will withdraw the excel all together, but for now its helping out with my plants uptake of nutrients and they are starting to grow.


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## EQUINOX

Homer_Simpson said:


> I am sorry, I should have given credit for the list to James From Cali who posted and updated it. This is James updated list, in which he lists Vals and Sag. Both vals and sag are excellent for low light plants and some people have successfully grown beautiful vals in nothing but kitty litter from what I have seen. *The only reason that I don't use them in my low tech tanks is the possibility that they may be sensitive to the effects of Fluorish Excel* which I dose to prevent algae and provide carbon to the plants. Some say Excel does not negatively effect vals and others say that it does. I would rather not chance it, so I stay away from vals.


By Vals you mean Vallisneria family?
Could you refer me to an information source regarding that?
I'm dosing Excel too.
Link.


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## skabooya

Equinox, I posted some threads for you to read in your thread journal about vals and excel.


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## limz_777

skabooya said:


> Heres a blurry pic of my tank as of 5 min ago. Ignore the green javaferns on the right, they were just added today. I know they have low nutrient export but anything i can get my hands on right now is better than nothing. They came from a cold water tank in my office so these guys will probably wilt and brown and have dieoff before growing back again.


is that a pennywort inbetween the driftwood?


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## skabooya

Yup thats pennywort.

Homer, I just got your shipment today. THANK YOU!!!!! You should have seen the box Yikes! It was pretty squished and beat up and looked like it had been re-taped a few times. 

Some plants were crushed like the water lettuce but a few are ok so they are all floating and we shall see how they do. The asian ambula was another one that was crushed and I cut a lot of the rotten parts away and kept the better parts. We shall see how that one does as well.
The diplis diandra was awsome and also the purple cabomba, and,rotiala. The lewdegia is such a pretty plant but I had to plant it really deep as a lot of its leaves were snapped off.

We shall see how things go with these guys but THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Im hoping they all make a comeback and just thrive.

I will take a pic when the tank clears up a bit. There is a lot of debris flying around the atm.
I also purchased another crypt, giant hygro and moneywort *cheap* while I was on a trip with my parents and brother (i sound like a kid here but my mom begged me and we hadent been on a family trip since i got married so yea, she ran the guilt trip and thats how it went down lol )

Im also waiting on some vals nana to come in but the supplier hasent made contact with me in a few days and i have written a few times so we shall see what happens with that.

Also a surprise for everyone... a new scape!!! *shock*


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## Hilde

So glad things are looking up!!:thumbsup:


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Yup thats pennywort.
> 
> Homer, I just got your shipment today. THANK YOU!!!!! You should have seen the box Yikes! It was pretty squished and beat up and looked like it had been re-taped a few times.
> 
> Some plants were crushed like the water lettuce but a few are ok so they are all floating and we shall see how they do. The asian ambula was another one that was crushed and I cut a lot of the rotten parts away and kept the better parts. We shall see how that one does as well.
> The diplis diandra was awsome and also the purple cabomba, and,rotiala. The lewdegia is such a pretty plant but I had to plant it really deep as a lot of its leaves were snapped off.
> 
> We shall see how things go with these guys but THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! Im hoping they all make a comeback and just thrive.
> 
> I will take a pic when the tank clears up a bit. There is a lot of debris flying around the atm.
> I also purchased another crypt, giant hygro and moneywort *cheap* while I was on a trip with my parents and brother (i sound like a kid here but my mom begged me and we hadent been on a family trip since i got married so yea, she ran the guilt trip and thats how it went down lol )
> 
> Im also waiting on some vals nana to come in but the supplier hasent made contact with me in a few days and i have written a few times so we shall see what happens with that.
> 
> Also a surprise for everyone... a new scape!!! *shock*


Yikes! I feel really bad  I packed it the best I could. I wonder if it was the weight of the ADA Aquasoil II that caused the crushing. With the way the box likely got thrown around during shipment, I wouldn't be surprised. I apologize. Also, I wasn't sure how the plants would survive, given that they were likely in transit for more than 3 days from the time it was shipped and sat in strorage at the post office to the time that it probably got to you. It is too bad about the ambulia but if you can snip it even closed to the top and even if the stem is a little intact and you plant it really deep it may still grow. It is like the equivalent of dandelion once it gets going. It just keeps growing.....and growing.....and growing. This one is even hardier than java moss and anubias in my experience.


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## skabooya

No worries homer. The aquasoil may have had something to do with it but you really should have seen this box, it was a disaster. You have no reason to apologize. You did everything right. I thank you so much for the beautiful and CLEAN plants. I just hope they grow as lovely as they grew in your tanks.
Thank you again.
Pics coming soon


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## limz_777

looking forward to your new scape


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## skabooya

Sorry everyone.
Its been a long time since updating. I did take the picture i just havent uploaded it yet. 
Things have been crazy busy here. But anyway my tank
Since the new plants were added the cyno came back in full force. I upped the WC's but to no avail. I was cyno free for about 3 weeks which is why i wanted to re stock my tank with fresh plants but i guess it disturbed the balance and created another outbreak. However the plants are growing.
Ive been adding 1/2 a capful of fluorish excel daily and it seems to really help the plants out. The purple cabomba has really taken off and needs a trim this weekend. The water lettuce has also taken off and from only a few that survived the transport I know have almost 1/2 my tank surface covered YAY! The little bit of asian ambula that didnt melt is doing well. It has grown a little bit. The diplis diandra is also growing but has only grown about an inch although the leaves are very compact. I see no stem its all leaves. Very cute. The rotala indica is doing good as well nice large leaves. Im waiting for it to reach the surface of the tank before i do a trim so maybe another 2-3 weeks on that one.
My crypt has obdviously melted but some leaves are hanging in there. And surprise surprise my green hygro has not grown at all. Actually, half of it has melted. The dwarf sag is starting to grow and so is my m.umbrosium.
Hopefully my tank finds its balance again so i can be cyno free for longer than 3 weeks. But hey at least my plants are now growing YAY!


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## Hilde

Got any pics?


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## ER9

skabooya said:


> Sorry everyone.
> Its been a long time since updating. I did take the picture i just havent uploaded it yet.
> Things have been crazy busy here. But anyway my tank
> Since the new plants were added the cyno came back in full force. I upped the WC's but to no avail. I was cyno free for about 3 weeks which is why i wanted to re stock my tank with fresh plants but i guess it disturbed the balance and created another outbreak. However the plants are growing.
> Ive been adding 1/2 a capful of fluorish excel daily and it seems to really help the plants out. The purple cabomba has really taken off and needs a trim this weekend. The water lettuce has also taken off and from only a few that survived the transport I know have almost 1/2 my tank surface covered YAY! The little bit of asian ambula that didnt melt is doing well. It has grown a little bit. The diplis diandra is also growing but has only grown about an inch although the leaves are very compact. I see no stem its all leaves. Very cute. The rotala indica is doing good as well nice large leaves. Im waiting for it to reach the surface of the tank before i do a trim so maybe another 2-3 weeks on that one.
> My crypt has obdviously melted but some leaves are hanging in there. And surprise surprise my green hygro has not grown at all. Actually, half of it has melted. The dwarf sag is starting to grow and so is my m.umbrosium.
> Hopefully my tank finds its balance again so i can be cyno free for longer than 3 weeks. But hey at least my plants are now growing YAY!


did you ever try nuking your cyno with this stuff? i did when i started that post and it hasn't returned since. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/80102-i-found-another-bga-killer.html


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## skabooya

Yes ER9 I tried it. Didnt work. And yes to everyone about me getting pics. I finally had time to take some and download them YAY! Cyno is still around but not nearly as bad as it was before. Plants are growing which is very good. Homer I hope to soon make you proud. My tank isint quite 'there' yet but its come a long way.
I was doing 50+% wc once a week and dosing the same as I was before EXCEPT now only trace is being dosed weekly and my dry ferts are monthly also my WC's have been reduced now to every other week. 1/2 a capful of excel daily with feedings.

Finally some pics of progress.


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## Hilde

I was beginning to think that you had lost your plants. Told another person whom lives in Canada to contact you before he threw away his clippings again.

Considering all of the water changes you have to do it seems the city must have made some changes in how they purify the water. Thus wondering if Seachem Equilibrium would balance the ecocystem.


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## skabooya

Thats whats strange is the water hasent changed. Ive tested it, my lfs has tested it (all params the same) and I contacted our district water treatment place and they said no changes have been made. So I was wondering what made my nitrates raise so fast during the week. The last few times i was cleaning my tank I observed that when i rubbed the wood it would slime off and sometimes bits would easily break off. In other words, my wood was rotting. I dont want to remove the wood so I adjusted my dosing to once a month except for trace which is dosed weekly. So far doing this params are staying where I want them.


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## Homer_Simpson

skabooya said:


> Thats whats strange is the water hasent changed. Ive tested it, my lfs has tested it (all params the same) and I contacted our district water treatment place and they said no changes have been made. So I was wondering what made my nitrates raise so fast during the week. The last few times i was cleaning my tank I observed that when i rubbed the wood it would slime off and sometimes bits would easily break off. In other words, my wood was rotting. I dont want to remove the wood so I adjusted my dosing to once a month except for trace which is dosed weekly. So far doing this params are staying where I want them.


FWIW, skabooya, things don't appear that bad from the pictures you posted. With my 10 gallon with DIY and 30 watts 6500K daylight bulbs, I experienced every kind of algae imagineable including cyno. Things went from bad to worse and I was ready to throw in the towel. In a last ditch effort, I reduced lighting to 20 watts and did not change anything else. Within about 2 months the algae was gone, and things appeared to be improving until I bumped the lighting up to 26 watt 6500K daylight. I ended up with one ugly case of green dust algae as you can see from this thread. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/86621-gda-do-something-seriously.html

I put in a zebra nerite snail and reduced lighting back to 20 watts, and things improved dramatically. Just to see what would happen I bumped the lighting back up to 30 watts 6500K daylight. I was expecting major algae blooms, but the tank now remains 100% algae free and there is no sign of any algae whatsoever. 

This tank is now my favourite tank but it took 2 years to get to that point and lots of persistence. I was seriously thinking of tearing it down in a few months as I want to experiment with another 10 gallon setup and only have so much room. But the plants, fish, shrimp, and snail are doing so well, I really am reluctant to tear it down. 

My advice to you is just keep doing what you are doing and be patient. My guess is that the tank will eventually balance itself out, plant growth will out compete algae, algae will disappear and you will not have algae to worry about. 

Hey, while you are waiting, why not take some of that Aquasoil and play around with a 5 gallon emersed set up that you can later flood and have no algae issues. This is what I am doing right now, and it is so much fun.
Trying this on a 5 gallon that you can keep in the classroom for the kids to enjoy would be so cool.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ion/52332-new-method-start-up-algae-free.html


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## Hilde

You mentioned some problems with wood that was in the tank. Have you ever had that wood in another tank? Seems something in your tank is making parameters favorable for algae. When you do water changes you are removing the substance. Possibly snails or algae eating fish will remove the substance as occurred in Homer's tank. Algae eating fish also like to eat on wood.


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## skabooya

Homer: Yes, When I get back from Newfoundland Im going to set up a tank in my office with the aquasoil. I dont know if im getting a teaching job next year. I was laid off due to cutbacks but 6 teachers have retired so who knows. Ive been looking at doing an emersed setup. It looks really neat. And thanks for saying it doesnt look that bad. 

Hilde: I used to have ottos in there but they all died during my major issues and trying all this stuff on the tank to get rid of the cyno. When the lfs gets more in I will buy some more. Snails... not a chance. I will never do those again. The wood used to be in my 100gal new world tank a few years ago. Since then it was left to dry out until I set up this one last year.


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> Ive been looking at doing an immersed setup.


Over at the aquascaping forum I have seen some interesting immersed setups, like Iwagumi. Here is an interesting link to grown plants immersed.


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## ipoderfan

*Whats buy a apple macbook ma472 or a samsung ?*

thinking to purchase one of these.
before i do i would like to have some opinions on what is the top choise.


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## Hilde

ipoderfan said:


> thinking to purchase one of these.
> before i do i would like to have some opinions on what is the top choise.


You are at the wrong forum!


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## skabooya

wow ipoderfan RANDOM!


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## Hilde

Check out the riparium style, aquatic plants emersed in hanging planters, here. 

If they get bad algae you can just take them out and spritz them.


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## skabooya

So its been a really really long time since ive been on here. I went to newfoundland and had to come back for an emergency. My daddy was really sick and I spent only 24 hours with him before he died. Its been pretty rough going. 

The plants from homer are doing quite well and all the cyno is gone, at least what I can see. Im so amazed and relieved.

My sister in law is also going to have a baby early november. Im going to be an auntie for the first time ever. Im so excited.

Hope to have pics up soon


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## Hilde

Life is a roller coaster at times. 

Relieved to hear that the tank finally balanced out.


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## skabooya

Again I post with an apology. My tank has been severly neglected. As you know my dad died a little while ago. Its still painful at times but its getting better. My sis in law is pregnant and we had her baby shower yesterday. Even though she is due early November she can give birth at any time now. 
As for myself; I also found out I am pregnant. Currently I am 9 weeks and 5 days. Its our first and my first time being pregnant. Lots of emotions going on. Its very bitter sweet. I also got a job working for the semester at the higschool again taking over for a teacher who lost his 8 year old son 1 week after my dad died. Lots has been going on.
Im going to post a pic of my tank in just a few minutes. 
I warn you its gonna be bad. Its a day time pic so there will be lots of reflection, It hasent been cleaned since before I left for Newfoundland (4 months), water level is low, some algae, snails mysteriously appeared. Just got some more java ferns yesterday from my brother in law. Yea anyway its ugly and im not happy with it at all. 
Looking at a total revamp.


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## Hilde

Congratulation!! Hope you try the Lamaze way and don't get a shot in your back. Some people have back problems from the shot.

Glad to here you haven't chucked the tank.


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## skabooya

As promised heres the dirty tank. Looking for an entirely new plan that involves low light plants, 1 wpg. 
Currently I have in the tank: Java Fern (common and windlov), Brazilian Pennywort, Purple camboba, asian ambula,Anubias nana and petit, java moss,diplis diandra,rotala indica, dwarf sag, four leaf clover, tiger lotus, crypt windetii red, mini waterlettuce and lwedegia repens?? I need to check that again.
The only plants doing well are the pennywort, crypt, and camboba The java ferns you see on the left were just added yesterday. Im hoping they will do well. 











Im thinking about removing 1 or 2 pieces of wood; the larger pieces. I would like a full lush look. So i want to add some easy care weeds.

I would like some more crypts and Im still looking for vals nana which I would love to try. Every seller I talk to about it just suddenly seems to drop off the face of the earth when it comes to responding to my PM's. I like the tall bushy plants taht feed off the water column. 
I miss my tiger lotus it just doesnt want to grow more than 2 tiny leaves at a time. I add 2 root tabs under it a month and nothing happens. In all actuality root tabs do nothing to any of my root feeders. My plants just dont want to suck up any nutrients except for the mini waterlettuce and pennywort. Everything else grows really slow or not at all. I swear this tank is cursed.
In my 20gal with only 13 watts of light i grew giant hygro, java fern and moss and they were lush and full and very healthy. It had inert clown puke gravel, no ferts and no WC's. Go figure.


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## skabooya

Thanks Hilde.
I dont know what im going to do when it comes down to it. I have a very low threshold for pain but I would like to go natural. I do want the drugs next to me just in case i cant take the pain. Ive heard you can get a spinal headache from an epidural if they need to re-inject again and again due to inexperience or because of movement. I hear more horror stories than anything good or normal so im pretty freaked about the whole thing.

As fo the tank im not one to give up. I say i will but i wont. Im too stubborn, all talk and no action. lol


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> I miss my tiger lotus it just doesnt want to grow more than 2 tiny leaves at a time. I add 2 root tabs under it a month and nothing happens.


Did you use Seachem root tabs? They are the best. They can get expensive thus I am putting Pond tabs in my substrate. Pond tabs have a little uric acid, which is not good for fish, thus they have to be buried deep.


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## demonbreedr16

That looks very good!

Hope you can find the plants you are looking for! I some times have problems finding plants[plants I've been wanting were once sooo common and now have dropped off the face of the earth. LOL], but in most cases, the people around here are AWESOME and will send you way more then what you ordered or payed shipping for...


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## skabooya

Hilde: Our LFS doesnt sell seachem root tabs and I cant justify the shipping costs to buy some. I did have some that I purchased when i went on vacation but they are long gone and im back to using jobes plant sticks for ferns. I have also used aquariumplants.com root tabs and all of them have the same result for me; nothing.

demonbreedr16: Thanks. I was surprised the pic makes the tank look better than what it does. Its really gross and I hate looking at it. my lfs carries lots of high light plants because they look pretty and sell fast. Its really hard to find any low light ones and any plants cost 16.99 each. Almost all the plants in that tank are currently from people on this forum, bcaquaria, and my brother in law. Only the java ferns at the back are mine from 13 years ago. They were a HUGE mat but once i moved them they all died except for maybe 2? I would need to check. It was a big mess.


Any suggestions on plants that would be good for this tank? Im looking for easy growth and I mean the boot leather plants that just wont die. The weeds that grow thick and spread like the firestorm of 2006.


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## skabooya

Bad news people. The BGA is back. I noticed it starting to cover my camboba, Lewdegia, driftwood and glass. I immediatly tested my water. Everything was normal so i did a WC anyway. I tested the water again this morning and the nitrate is lower than yesterday but not by much. Its still in the normal range. My plants are doing better since I moved them to their new locations. Im wondering if the move stirred up some stuff from the substrate that caused a spike in the trates??
In anycase We shall see how it goes. Im hoping my tank finds balance again. Something went loco.


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## Hilde

skabooya said:


> My plants are doing better since I moved them to their new locations. Im wondering if the move stirred up some stuff from the substrate that caused a spike in the trates?


 Probably! Here is some info from aaronnorth:
When waste is falling down and it breaks up in the substrate the ammonium content is high, but because of minimal disturbance it doesn't affect the fish usually, unless they are bottom feeders who burrow, hence why it is recommended you do a gravel vac to avoid diseases,

If you ever disturb the substrate a lot, follow up with a 50% water change for 2-3days after to neutralise the ammonia spike.

Also some use KNO3 for hair algae and BBA. I wonder if it would help. The desired nitrate level is 5-10ppm. You just have to increase it slowly or it will affect the fauna. I make a mixture with 1.5 tsp of KNO3 and 1/4 a cup of water. Then dose 2ml wkly. 1 ml of this solution will give you 1.08 ppm of nitrates and 0.54 ppm of potassium in 10 gallons of water.


----------



## Dragonstar

That is a beautiful tank!


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## jhoops

> Any suggestions on plants that would be good for this tank? Im looking for easy growth and I mean the boot leather plants that just wont die. The weeds that grow thick and spread like the firestorm of 2006.


Have you tried water wisteria? It grows incredibly fast in my low-tech tank without root tabs, CO2, or anything special attention. It's hard to keep it contained in its section of the tank


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## Hilde

jhoops said:


> Have you tried water wisteria? It grows incredibly fast in my low-tech tank without root tabs, CO2, or anything special attention. It's hard to keep it contained in its section of the tank


I second that!! Scientific name Hygrophila difformis. I got some from EBay. The stems were in bad shape thus cut them back. Planted 5 5in stems. After 10 months it is a big bush 18 inches tall.


----------



## skabooya

Thanks all.
The BGA is getting a bit worse. Im gonna do another WC tomorrow after work to see if it helps. I also have a shipment of plants comming in from fishclubgirl. I will be getting at least 2 stems of each of hygro polysperma, sunset, blue, giant, difformis (some of these I will be getting more) I am also getting some vals nana from her as well. Im hoping all these plants sucking up the nutrients will help out with the BGA and make my tank look more full.
I had sunset hygro before and it was growing great until my first BGA outbreak... and then it died.


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## skabooya

Well i didnt get around to the WC. Other stuff came up and our small community got some really bad news. 540 jobs gone without warning from one of the only 2 major industries we have. Our town is gonna be DEAD in the next few months.

Anyway, the BGA seems to be getting a bit better but I just turned the lights on. We shall see later today. All ive been doing is underfeeding the fish and adding excel as normal. Not dosing any ferts and keeping the light schedule regular. Im trying to get the plants to suck up as many nutrients as possible to help starve the BGA. 
I have more plants comming in on wednesday hopefully which will help a lot with nutrient uptake and help my tank to look full and like a jungle. I cant wait. I hope the plants im getting arrive ok and they do well in my tank.


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## Hilde

Sounds like a good plan!!


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## skabooya

Cyno is getting a bit worse. I tested and my nitrates are way up. Need to do another large WC to get them under control. The java ferns my bro in law gave me have a lot of melted leaves from the long trip and adjusting. I believe the rotting leaves are the problem.

Ive also been a bad girl. I was looking at discus again. Ive been wanting them since i began the hobby but I cant get another tank for some time. Ive got a baby comming, and Renovations on hold because the life of our town is up in the air with all the layoffs. I can still dream though 
The discus patterns I love are:
Blue Cobalt
Leopard
Blue body red leopard snake
blue diamond red straited
White butterfly
white dragon
Red Dragon
Brilliant Blue

Ahhhhh, keep dreaming.


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## skabooya

UPDATE:
Cyno looks the same. 
Also got my plant shipment in. FINALLY got my vals nana. Ive waited so long.
The plants were freezing cold. I planted them anyway just randomly throughout the tank. Im hoping that they will grow. Once i see them doing well I will move them around but until then Im just hoping they recover from their long trip from Calgary.
I recognize the sunset hygro and giant hygro and the wisteria but the others I dont recognize. 
One looks like a crypt or needle leef java fern with the long leaves all comming out of one stem. Very lovely plant.
The other looks like just a plain light green hygro. There is another bunch with bairly any leaves and the leaves that are there are all squished and melted. I want to see what it is 

Im so excited Im hoping they all grow out to be full lush plants that dominate the tank.


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## skabooya

Cyno completely gone after a 3 day blackout. Basically I was gone to see my new neice in PG and there was no one here to take care of the tank. 3 days of no light or food. Came back to a crystal clear tank. No algae anywhere.
My plants however are suffering. They are all melting. All of them.
I dont know whats going on. I checked my water and trates are still high but I ended up dosing more ferts anyway because the tank went 3 days without anything. Plants are getting worse every day.
I dont get it. I had growth before I left and now everything is melting.


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## lauraleellbp

Have you checked your water params? Especially your tank temperature?


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## skabooya

Tank temperature hasent changed. Trates are high.. as they usually are with a cyno outbreak; only now there is no cyno. 
As for the other params im giving a sample to my hubby to take with him to the lfs (about an hour away) to see what they have to say.

We did have an earthquake while I was away. Maybe the plants got scared?? lol


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## Hilde

Did you lower the lights while you were gone? Perhaps Iron would help. Do you have a picture?


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## skabooya

While I was gone the tank lights were off. There was no one to take care of the tank for 3 days.

I dose Iron and Micros and macros once a month as any more and my tank gets unhappy. Excel is dosed daily... except for the 3 days I was away.

I just doesed the other day (early in my schedule) because I was worried the plants werent getting the nutrients needed. 

I will try to get a pic later but im super busy this week.


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## Hilde

I wonder if the die off of the algae is affecting the plants. For read that the die off of algae after black out can increase ammonia levels.


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## skabooya

Thats what I was wondering Hilde. 
Hubby forgot to take water to LFS. 
Im going to do a WC tommorow


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## Hilde

Well it seems if the black out worked that, logically ,the balance between lighting and Co2, which is naturally in the water, is off. Perhaps starting with 3hrs of light would work. Then increase 1hr per week. If the algae comes back decrease lights by 1h.

Experimenting with different bulbs of same wattage I have that the different spectrum's affect the growth of the plants more so than the wattage. Thus logically that spectrum's would affect the growth algae. Would you mind telling me again what lights you have over the tank or posting a link?

Complexity and I have found concentrating on getting the plants to grow over comes the growth of algae. It seems to be like crab grass. Where what you want to grow is lacking what you don't want to grow takes over the area.


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## oldpunk78

how do i put this??? your bga problem simply perplexes me. we (the planted tank) should of had this problem solved by now. something has been over looked.

could you re-post all that you know about your tank? 

ie: tank size, lighting(including duration), filtration(flow rate and media especially), water parameters, fish load, fish food? substrate?

also, what do you dose? how, how much, and when.

honestly, bga has been the easiest thing to get ride for me. all i did was dose some http://www.ultralifedirect.com/HTML/blue-green_remover.htm increased the tank's flow and dosed more kno3. it went away within a week and hasn't come back.

i just think that we as a whole have missed something.

a quote from james' planted tank:

Blue Green Algae, BGA

Description

This isn't a true algae, but a bacteria called cyanobacteria that is able to photosynthesise. Covers everything in a blue/green slimy mat. Easily peels off but grows back again very quickly. It can smell pretty foul. It is very commonly found in the substrate and especially along the front glass where is receives light.

Cause

Often caused by very low nitrates. It is fairly common to have it growing in the substrate against the front glass from where it can spread. Sometimes it appears with new setups that have had light and ammonia present at some point. Dirty substrates and filters may also bring it on. Poor water circulation is another possible cause.

Removal

A blackout is the best method for this. Clean out as much of the algae as you can and do a 30 to 50% water change. If your nitrates are low then add some potassium nitrate to get levels to 20ppm. Remove CO2 and add an airstone. Turn off lights and cover the whole tank so no light can enter. Leave it for 3 to 4 days. No peeking and no feeding - fish will be fine without food for this period. After 3 to 4 days remove the covers and do a 30 - 50% water change. Remove airstone and start CO2. You will need to dose nitrates to keep them dropping too low again. Make sure your substrate and filter doesn't become too clogged up with mulm and also make sure you have good water circulation around the whole tank.

Another option is to treat with Maracyn which is an anti-biotic. Seems to work well but may affect the biological filter. In the UK it is illegal to purchase Maracyn without first getting a prescription for it from a vet.

If the BGA is originating from the substrate place some dark tape on the glass to hide the substrate from direct light.


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## skabooya

Specs again top to bottom 
Lighting: is 2x20 normal output fluorescents (40 watts total; Hagen) Duration is 8 hours any more and ive learned I get algae or the cyno loves it.
Tank size: 32gal
Substrate: fluorite
Filtration: Aquaclear 50 (says on the lid) and a Korilia 1 for furthur water movement. Media is now just a sponge. Polyfibre right after a WC to catch any bits of floating stuff. No carbon because it removes whatever I dose.
PH from tap is about 6.5 after being in the tank for a week its about a 6 sometimes slightly lower.
Nitrite changes within days. After a WC its at 10 sometimes 20 and within 2 or 3 days its up to 50
Dont have the rest of the params until i can get to the lfs again (45min - 1 hr away)
Fish load: 2 adult angels, 8 harlequin rasboras and 8 rummynose tetras
Food: no feedings on weekends. Small amount during the week (daily). Varied diet of discus pellets, freezedried brine shrimp, basic flake, colour bits, spiriluna flakes, freeze dried blood worms.
Dosing schedule: 
Daily 1/2 cap fluorish excel
Monthly: 10ml Kno3, KH2P04 mixture. 2 capfulls of iron (as directed by bottle). 1 capful of amazon elements (micros). Jobes plant spikes cut into 4 pieces put under each root feeder (1/4 piece under each)


BGA for me has not happened because of low trates. It came due to very high trates and some other factor I have not figured out yet. Water changes do nothing to alleviate the problem and will instead make it worse. I tried using some speical expensive carbon my lfs recommended me (didnt work), tried macaryn (didnt work), tried blackout numerous times (didnt work), sterilized tank except for plants (didnt work), Increased flow (didnt work, made it worse), manual removal (didnt work, made it worse), Super cleaning the tank and super high matinance (didnt work, made it worse). Gave up and left it alone and just dosed and pretended it wasent there (worked).

Hilde Im not going to experiment with different bulbs of the same spectrum. I dont have the money for that now at all. Ive got a bathroom reno going on by necessity not by choice, a baby on the way (nursery being made), entryway door comming in, structural engeenering going on downstairs soon, and re do on my stairs for safety reasons when baby comes. What I can do is get new bulbs when these crap out.


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## oldpunk78

it sounds like you have something in your water supply that's fueling the problem. have you tried no w/c's?

also, have you tried no dosing? you do have the right amount light to give it a try. your fish load should be able to keep the plants happy.

i noticed you didn't mention treating the tank with H2O2. have you given that a shot yet? 

if i was in your shoes, i would try another black-out, do some spot treatments with H2O2, and discontinue w/c's and dosing for a while. it's worth a shot anyways.


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## skabooya

Ive tried no WC and I do see a difference. If I dont dose my plants suffer, Ive seen it so I have to dose. If i dont do WC my plants wont grow either even if i dose trace. So I try to do WC at least twice a month.
If the water sourse was the problem then I would have had cyno in my other tanks as well and I never did. Just this one.
Nope never tried H2O2. Next time I get cyno i will give it a try for a last resort.


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