# Looking for some basic assistance.



## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

im not quite clear on what aspects you need assistance with.


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

Fair point. Sorry about that. I guess I got a bit lost.

What I really am looking for in terms of help is, plant types, substrate, and lighting. 

My lighting is mainly for the turtles themselves, so little light actually goes into the tank.

Also would play sand be enough for some smaller vascular plants and grasses? or would I need a plant type substrate? 

Also, what are some basic low light mosses, grasses, and smaller vascular plants.


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm a noob, too, so I can't help you with anything but I wanted to tell you, you gave me a great idea for a driftwood cat tree! I envy the 150 tank and that cool driftwood - and does that sticker say "protected by a killer turtle"? lol


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

driftwoodhunter said:


> I'm a noob, too, so I can't help you with anything but I wanted to tell you, you gave me a great idea for a driftwood cat tree! I envy the 150 tank and that cool driftwood - and does that sticker say "protected by a killer turtle"? lol


I had the stand made by a friend =P and thank you the tank is my pride and joy. I got it off a coworker . And yes the sticker does say Protected by killer turtle.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Plants:
if you are looking for a simple low tech setup there are some excellent plants you should consider.
- anubias, there are various species and all will work (can be tied to rocks and driftwood and eventually anchor themselves, they can be planted but you have to take care not to bury the rhizome in the substrate)
- java moss
- java fern (can be tied to rocks and driftwood and eventually anchor themselves, they can be planted but you have to take care not to bury the rhizome in the substrate)
-cryptocoryne species (some are more suited to low tech, low light than others)
-swords (again some are more suited to low tech, low light than others)

There are other low light/low tech plants but the ones I listed are probably the most popular and easiest to find. 

Substrate:
play sand will work for most of the plants I listed although crypts and swords will appreciate root tabs. Pool filter sand is a bit better b/c it doesnt compact as much as playsand

small grain pea gravel is a good choice for simple setups

you could mix ecocomplete or flourite with pea gravel or do eco or flourite only (downside is gonna be price especially for a 150 gallon tank)

numerous people on this site have success with using Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Mix as a base with pool filter sand or pea gravel as a cap. 

no matter which substrate you choose the depth should be 2-4 inches. 

Lighting:
I see you are already using clip on work lights. I would just continue this but perhaps add fixtures and bulbs geared toward the plants you can get 23 watt 6500K screw in CFLs at lowes. Just make sure you dont end up with highlight with the turtle lights and plant lights together b/c then you will need to inject CO2

Fertilizer: 
you didnt ask about this but if you arent planning on injecting CO2 it would be a good idea to consider a fertilizer dosing regimine that includes Flourish Excel. Many people use the EI method. Mosses and other hardy low light plants don't require ferts but will appreciate it and reward you with improved growth.


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

kamikazi said:


> Plants:
> if you are looking for a simple low tech setup there are some excellent plants you should consider.
> - anubias, there are various species and all will work (can be tied to rocks and driftwood and eventually anchor themselves, they can be planted but you have to take care not to bury the rhizome in the substrate)
> - java moss
> ...



Thank you very much for the help here. I do have a store around me with a decent selection on plants, however they are pricey. 

With pool filter sand, are we simply talking about the silica type sand used in those filters? If there much washing needed with that? I do know that play sand needs to be washed very very well.

I can pick up some of those 6500k screw in CFL bulbs with no issue. The lights for the turtles are directly over the basking dock, those do however grow things on the basking dock. I have gotten mushrooms before. Each of those are 150 watts. But most of that light is focused on the dock rather than the tank.

Now with the ferts you mentioned. Flourish Excel, I take it this product is safe for fish? If so I would believe that it would be safe for aquatic turtles as well. What would a regimen look like? Or would that be based on the amount of plants I plan to keep?

Also, I plan to place a second Fluval FX5 I have on the tank. I am finding the flow rate is barely half of what the filter states, and I have numerous dead spots in the tank with considerable gunk build up


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

Hey Joe! I think I can help you out a little here as well.


But first, I have a simple question that will determin where we should go from here: Do the map turtles eat/uproot plants? (Sorry if I missed it somewhere...)


Anyway, as Kamikaz mentioned, Java fern, Java moss, amazon swords (Echinodorus spp), Vallisneria spp, Cryptocornes (aka, Crypts), Anubias spp, along with a couple others that do not come to mind at the moment should work in a low-tech setup.

For your substrate. Stick with gravel. I use pool filter sand, and, unfortunately, I am not a big fan. This is because there is very little water flow around the roots of the aquatic plants. You could do a combination of pea gravel and PFS though.

For lighting, I'd say get some compact flourecent bulbs and rig them up in the same fixtures as you have now for your reptile bulbs. Another option would be to get a single bulb T5HO light fixture with a decent reflector. Those will run you a bit, ($50 for a 4' fixture).

Fertilzation wise, stick some root tabs in your substrate, and maybe get some dry estimative index fertilizers. And you should be set!

Oh, and yes, Seachem's Excel is fish safe. 

Hope that helped! 

Jake


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

RipariumGuy said:


> Hey Joe! I think I can help you out a little here as well.
> 
> 
> But first, I have a simple question that will determin where we should go from here: Do the map turtles eat/uproot plants? (Sorry if I missed it somewhere...)
> ...




Thank you Jake. My maps rarely mess with any plant material that I give them, however that is not to say that they will not eat it. It is possible for them to uproot as well. 

I think I will stink with a basic set up and see how things go for a while, and add plants as it comes. 

I will get some CFLs and rig them over the tank for sure, that I believe will be the easier part of this entire project. 

I love the look of sand, but hate dealing with it. It really becomes a pain to clean and remove from a tank of that size. What would be a ratio for PFS/gravel mixure? 

I can for sure work with root tabs.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

you do need to rinse pool filter sand. I just put mine in a bucket and ran water in it till it ran mostly clear. sand is a pain in the arse to clean like you said. So pea gravel may be a better option. In my 40 I capped organic choice potting mix with the smallest grain pea gravel my petsmart sells (the grains are about half the size of a pinky finger nail.

read this for fertilization regimen. http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2819-EI-light-for-those-less-techy-folks

You can also consider using a powerhead or two for flow. 
check out this thread for a flow/filtration idea http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/31094-cheap-efficient-filter-solution.html


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

Thank you. I went to my local store and tanked things over with a friend who is the aquarium head there. I think I will end up using the Fluval Substrata. And for lighting I believe I will use two, 18'' marine land LED lights over each side of the tank. 

I think however that this is just a very basic idea. I figure more research is needed to get the tank running and healthy with out having to do major changes within the first few months of setting it up. It could be a costly mistake if I don't look into things well enough.

Substrate alone will be one of the biggest hits to my pocketbook. However, I do believe it will be worth it in the long run. 


Thank you all for the kind help.

Does anyone have experience with the new Fluval Substrata? and the Marineland LED lights?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

never heard of that substrate, some pricey stuff.

you can get a 20lb bag of ecocomplete for the same price as an 8lb bag of the fluval stuff. 

I have my doubts that any benefits of the stratum would out weight the cost, but hey your wallet not mine.

I don't deal with LED lights so I can't comment on those. Look in the lighting section for advice on those if no one replies about them here.


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

Interesting, yes it is in fact much less expensive. I am completely for Ecocompelte if it is some highly regarded substrate.


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Joe S said:


> Interesting, yes it is in fact much less expensive. I am completely for Ecocompelte if it is some highly regarded substrate.


lots of people use eco-complete as well as flourite, flourite is a bit more than eco-complete but less than the fluval stratum.

If you are really looking to save money you can do mineralized top soil (MTS) or Organic Choice Potting mix (MGOCPM). Problem with MTS is taking the time to make it and gathering all the ingredients, but it works just as well if not better than plant substrates. MGOCPM is a good option if you want dirt but don't want to deal with making MTS. The main problem I see with it is that it is still relatively new to use in the aquarium world and I have read the nutrients may not last as long as nutrients in MTS. Problems with dirt tanks in general are they are best as plant and forget, meaning they are more difficult to rescape because plants get rooted very well and cause a cloudy mess when you pull them out. 
All that said I really like my dirt tank and bowls. 

I saw you posted a thread in the substrate section about comparing the two plant substrates, good idea, I hope you get good information to make the best decision for your setup.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I personally would skip the Excel. It can cause moulting issues with shrimp and I'm not at all confident that it is reptile safe. Stick with a low light setup and you shouldn't need it anyways.

If your turtles won't dig through the substrate then a layer of soil underneath pool filter sand might work well. Then I'd go with some Crypts planted in the substrate (and there's a huge variety of Crypt sizes, shapes, and colors to work with), Anubias and Java ferns tied onto rocks or driftwood, chain swords (Echinodorus, Helanthium, and Sagittaria species). Just about any aquatic moss should work well.

Stem plants I think probably would need more light, be more fragile/prone to breakage by the turtles, and possibly the most likely to end up munched on.

I get most of my own plants online from here in the Swap n Shop. Keep in mind that the current super hot weather through most of the country makes shipping plants pretty risky, though- you may want to wait a few months for it to cool down a bit if shipping is your best option.


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

kamikazi said:


> lots of people use eco-complete as well as flourite, flourite is a bit more than eco-complete but less than the fluval stratum.
> 
> If you are really looking to save money you can do mineralized top soil (MTS) or Organic Choice Potting mix (MGOCPM). Problem with MTS is taking the time to make it and gathering all the ingredients, but it works just as well if not better than plant substrates. MGOCPM is a good option if you want dirt but don't want to deal with making MTS. The main problem I see with it is that it is still relatively new to use in the aquarium world and I have read the nutrients may not last as long as nutrients in MTS. Problems with dirt tanks in general are they are best as plant and forget, meaning they are more difficult to rescape because plants get rooted very well and cause a cloudy mess when you pull them out.
> All that said I really like my dirt tank and bowls.
> ...




This is very appealing to me right now. The MGOCPM looks like a viable option. I have read that it needs to be look through to remove large debris such as stinks and wood chunks. From there it needs to be capped correct? Something like the Ecocomplete?

What I want to have is only a semi planted tank. More background plants, and mosses more upfront. Simple, yet nice. I also think that doing it that way would help the turtles by giving them more room up front to cruise the bottom and such. 

Are there any good guides out there that have a step by step type of walkthrough for creating a dirt tank?


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## kamikazi (Sep 3, 2010)

Joe S said:


> This is very appealing to me right now. The MGOCPM looks like a viable option. I have read that it needs to be look through to remove large debris such as stinks and wood chunks. From there it needs to be capped correct? Something like the Ecocomplete?
> 
> What I want to have is only a semi planted tank. More background plants, and mosses more upfront. Simple, yet nice. I also think that doing it that way would help the turtles by giving them more room up front to cruise the bottom and such.
> 
> Are there any good guides out there that have a step by step type of walkthrough for creating a dirt tank?


usually capped with sand or pea gravel, not sure eco complete would work but it might. With a dirt tank you could easily section off a strip along the back that has dirt with the cap, then areas not planted could just be only the cap substrate. If you take a look at my 40 gallon I have an area at the back with dirt and pea gravel. I used rocks to separate that area from a sand area upfront. others don't use anything to divide the areas but eventually the two areas will kinda mesh together where they meet (not that its a big deal)

wknracer probably has the best thread laying out the dirt tank setup.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html


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## Joe S (Aug 2, 2011)

kamikazi said:


> usually capped with sand or pea gravel, not sure eco complete would work but it might. With a dirt tank you could easily section off a strip along the back that has dirt with the cap, then areas not planted could just be only the cap substrate. If you take a look at my 40 gallon I have an area at the back with dirt and pea gravel. I used rocks to separate that area from a sand area upfront. others don't use anything to divide the areas but eventually the two areas will kinda mesh together where they meet (not that its a big deal)
> 
> wknracer probably has the best thread laying out the dirt tank setup.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html


Excellent, thank you. I do see the difference there you are talking about. 

Still not sure what I plan to do with the substrate, but I am sure I can figure it out in time.


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