# I need neon tetra help



## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

One of my tetras seems to be sick but I dont know whats wrong with him. 
He hides under one of the branches in my tank and seems slightly aggressive towards the others. Color doesnt seem to be fading at all but his gills seem to be red. 
Could it be neon tetra disease?


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

Hhhmm, it doesnt sound like NTD. HOw many tetras do you have in there (is he lonely and feels like he's being ganged up on) and also, how are your params. Sometimes I find too much ammonia can cause red gills. Not sure if thats just me, but i've noticed it before.


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

He does sound like he's a loner and is trying to survive to me. Doesn't sound like a neon to be aggressive toward other tankmates.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

After reading a bit tonight... I think it might be a little of both. The tank was started 2 weeks ago because I had to move. (I relize neon tetras arnt the best fish to put in a cycling tank haha). My tank is a 15 gal with ph of 7.8 and the nitrite level is at 0.5 ppm. Did a 50% water change yeseterday and today I put half a teaspoon of amquel plus to see if it helps stabilze things a bit  
Allso I have only 3 neons. The one is smaller then the other two and they do seem to pick on each other. I guess my best bet would be to get more neons?
Unfortunatly this is a temp tank untill I can get my 75 gal setup after I finally move in a week. My poor fish


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Don't get ANY more fish till your tank has cycled. You need to get your nitrites WAYY down- and you're just going to have to wait it out- not much you can do to boost the cycle at this point? Keep doing partial water changes to at least *try* and keep your neons living through the process, and keep checking your ammonia and pH every day. Do you have any live plants in there? If not- they might help, and would probably make the neons happier- they like heavily planted tanks (places to hide make them feel more secure).

They will benefit from more buddies later, but not yet.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Oh no no I wouldnt think about getting more till the tank cycled. I have one cryptocoryne and a couple fake plants for the neons to hide in. I figured I would just have to ride it out and hope for the best...  Ive been checking my ph, nitrate, nitrite, ammonia levels once sometimes twice a day and writing them down to keep track. Fortunatly the other 2 neons are doing rather well and seem to be happy. Thanks for the advice tho guys!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL we've all been there. If you understand about cycling you're over one of the biggest hurdles already.

GL with the 75!


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

That doesn't sound like a very good situation for neons at all. Keep those water changes up and check those params. Maybe you can transfer your neons to a friend who has an established tank? I feel sorry for the little guys. All schooling type fish like neons should be in groups of 5 or more. 3 is not enough and I'm sure that has something to do with its behavior as well.

Hope it works out!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I generally agree with the above posts. I'd not bother with testing the water everyday, unless you want to, as we can safely expect it'll have ammonia and/or nitrite due to cycling. Everyday water changes are in order for the next week, then test again. If there's any ammonia or nitrite then another week of daily water changes is in order. Ammonia is toxic, but nitrite is even more toxic yet, in a cycled and properly running tank we should never see either. Dosing Amquel was a good idea, I believe it detoxifies ammonia and nitrite like Prime does. Marineland White Diamond would be a good addition to the filter too, the zeolite will help suck up the ammonia.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Two things other than BioSpira that will help you out bigtime right now:

1. Go around to various fish stores and ask for a used filter insert that you can shove in your filter, as in wet, straight out of one of their cycled tanks. Get a few and you'll be good to go or at least close. Sometimes it's hard to get them to give one up depending on their setups (or if they want to sell you magic in a bottle instead), so you usually have to ask around and find someone who's cool enough to help a brother out. The only problem here is cross contamination, it's a gamble, the fish aren't doing well now anyway. I've done it in the past with no issues but I did warn you. You can also bum wet driftwood and rocks from a cycled tank off them, that helps and looks sweet too. Don't let them sell you garbage that supposedly cycles tanks, BioSpira is the only one that can work, but you can get the same results from these two steps for a fraction of the cost and it's more reliable than BioSpira if it isn't handled or used correctly.

**2. Go get _all_ the aquatic stem plants you can get your hands on and stuff them in the tank, and I mean stuffed to the MAX until the seams are breaking, front to back, side to side, bottom to top. Even some duckweed if you're serious about saving the fish. Leave a small bit of swimming room for the fish and room to reach the surface, but be stingy about it. You can read more on this including some steps to follow at Rex Grigg's guide, called the "silent cycle".

Do those two things and you're most likely in the clear. The plants alone will probably take care of it as long as you get the right ones (fast stems, no java fern, no moss, no anubias. Get wisteria, water sprite, ludwigia, bacopa, anacharis / egeria / elodia, hygro, foxtail, some grasses like vallisneria and sagittaria, duckweed etc.) and you get enough of them.

Definitely don't add fish until amm and nitrites reach zero on their own without the help of water changes. And certainly keep on top of tests and any water changes that may still be required to keep them at or below .25ppm regardless if you follow my tips, it's never 100% but often totally effective. The nitrifying bacteria will still take roughly a month to fully colonize your tank and filters even though plants are consuming nitrogen.

I recently lost a new tetra and he was acting the same way, hovering a few inches off the sub, alittle skittish, somewhat labored breathing I think, nipping at other tetras and running them off. He's been unseen since that night.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

And FYI

Liquid Amquel Plus in heavy doses can quickly crash your pH if your KH is too low (<4 dKH / <70ppm KH). If your KH is that low or you start to see pH plummet, switch to Buffered Amquel Plus powder or Seachem Prime. Just know that Prime can skew ammonia results on some test including the API kit, so they recommend the Seachem ammonia kit for testing after a Prime treated water change.

I'm unsure if this Amquel induced pH crash can kill fish, it happened to me once and I can only attribute my one loss to being in the same predicament you're in now, so it could have been anything, still not fun to watch pH plummet.

Just another wonderful little stress tester that likes to hit unsuspecting cyclers at the wrong time, thought I'd clue you in now.

Good luck.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

Not only that neons are bad fish to start a cycle, but any fish for that matter. However, in planted tanks, if it is densly planted to begin with, you shouldn't need to cycle 100%. I think the fish-keeping hobby has advanced enough to the stage where we can go w/o fish cycling and do fishless cycling now. So just stuff your aquarium full of stem plants and duckweed to help out your fish.

Plants prefer NH4 uptake to NO3. And since stem plants / duckweed adsorb most of their nutrients through the water column, lots of plants will happily adsorb the ammonia/um. This will give your bacteria colony time to grow and handle the bio-load.

I think liquid amquel will only be temporary in solving ammonia increase.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Correct, Amquel Plus can temporarily save you from existing toxins but cannot stay on top of steady nitrogen production, so it's only a short term, emergency tactic until water changes are made. And it's possible effects on parameters make it less desirable for constant overdosing. Prime isn't the be-all-end-all either since it only detoxifies nitrogens for about 48hrs then releases them to the biofilter, better on parameters though, and with tons of stem plants the release is less of an issue.

Another tip, don't do large (over 25%) water changes to combat spikes. Better to do back to back 10-20% water changes, as many as it takes to get toxins down to .25ppm or less. This will slow the parameter changes a bit and make it much less stressful than one large water change. Particularly, nitrite spikes in week three and four of a traditional cycle seem to be the most stubborn, often requiring back to back changes to get them down to safe levels, sometimes three or four in a row IME. I've killed tetras with 50% WCs even in cycled tanks regardless of hardness and temp matching. Obviously, a few 20% changes can equal 50% or more, but at least it's not one quick punch in the face when you divide them up.


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## dekstr (Oct 23, 2007)

Large water changes kill fish when they are done infrequently. 

Tank water will start drifting off in parameters from tap water due to decaying plant matter, fish waste, etc.

If you do 50% water changes, they better be quite frequent as to match the tank's parameters closer to your tap water.

Personally, I haven't had deaths when doing 50% water changes, but that is because I do them weekly. 

However, it is actually better to do small frequent WCs in your case.

And neons need to be larger groups. Often times the solution to fish sadness is more fish friends. (Of course, don't add anymore until you have tank cycled )


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Sadly for the fish in question, my 50% changes are weekly per the EI dosing method, reconstituted to a target TDS from RO. I think it had more to do with the particular species or other stressers involved like new arrivals or not enough same species tank mates etc. There are many factors to consider as possible culprits including unknowns.

But in this situation it can only help to do smaller water changes, Growerguy can learn about EI and TDS another day.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

You all are awesome! thanks for the help! I knew the bare basics of starting a tank but all this info has helped ALOT!
Today I did a 20% WC and will continue to do one every day for the next week and see how my params sit. Allso I added white diamond to my filter and purchased a bunch of Ludwigia. Not enough to fill my tank because of lack of money at the moment but as much as I could. Allso I got another 15 watt flora-glo light. 
The neons at the moment seem to be doing better. The loner one is swiming with the other two.
Thanks again tho. Ive been reading volumes and taking in info like crazy but so far you all have been the most help! 
Here's crossing my fingers as I expand from growing dry land plants to aquatics for the first time.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that AmQuel only converts ammonia and nitrIte to nitrAte? NitrAte may be less toxic to the fish- but at cycling levels, a PWC is still indicated IMO?

I tried to cycle a 10gal once using that stuff and never could get the thing to properly cycle. The conclusion I eventually came to is that every time I added AmQuel I short-circuited the whole point of cycling; the N-bacteria need to be able to establish an equilibrium based on the available ammonia levels in the tank. I finally ended up with an entire tank crash and dismantled, bleached, and started all over- went great next time when I didn't use AmQuel at all! (I suppose it has its uses but I've never touched the stuff since.)

I agree if the neons could be moved elsewhere that would be ideal- if you know someone who already has an established tank? (Otherwise they'll end up in the same cycling situation just in a different container.)

In an ideal cycling situation you shouldn't be doing any water changes until after the ammonia and nitrite levels have peaked and dropped off. In your current situation, however, with the neons in the tank, I recommeded daily parameter checks to try and monitor the situation and reduce the toxicity to the neons as much as possible while still allowing the cycling process to work itself out.

The 25% PWC will probably lengthen the time it takes your tank to cycle overall, but hopefully you will be able to keep the levels from becoming so toxic to your neons during that time that they will pull through. I totally agree that you shouldn't try to do more than 25% though.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Update on the Neons. A local fish breeder is selling me an established complete 75g tank. Substrate, wet/dry filter, and all for very very cheep. The tank is set up right now with small catfish and plecos.
Unfortunatly I wont be able to pick up the tank for 6 days. I feel horrible for the little guys. :\
The Amquel removes an average of 1.2 ppm ammonia, 2ppm nitrite, and 13ppm of nitrate. I can see how it might short circuit the cycle process.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I never got to the point of knowing if it short circuited my cycle, by the time pH was below 5, it was out the window and I became Seachem Prime Pimp # whatever.

That's what stinks about a fishy cycle and all the necessary WCs (if you want to keep them healthy, some people let them ride out the harsh rollercoaster) is that it may lengthen the cycle, and coming home from work everyday to do multiple WCs for a month plain sucks!. I think the two number one choices for cycling now are fishless and the "silent" cycle (BioSpira sounds great but I've failed to get it in proper condition both times, and it's expensive especially if you have to overnight it). Silent definitely requires the person know what to add and how to keep it growing, often it doesn't work for people who don't use enough stems so they're just doing a fishy cycle after that.

My method is somewhat fishless but doesn't require tedious ammonia additions (like they're anywhere near as tedious as a month of constant water changes, lol) nor as much testing. I'm blessed with tap water with a 2ppm amm, 5ppm nI, >5ppm nA content, give or take at certain times of the year. I put that water in a new tank with an aged filter from a fully stocked tank, then test amm until it hits 0ppm. By then my nI is usually around .25ppm so I add one fish and a shot of Prime, the next day nI is gone never to come back and the tank is basically cycled (off the filter). I add one new fish a week after that for a month as the tank colonizes and I mess around with plants and such, periodically testing to see if parameters are maintaining. This is exactly how my 65gl cycle went, hands off except for a few amm and nI tests, only 12 days to cycle once the filter was on, no WCs, no dead fish, no bad algae either. :thumbsup:


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

lauraleellbp, once we have fish in the tank the normal cycling procedures go out the window.

It is critically important to reduce ammonia and nitrite levels when there are fish involved. The cycle will still develop when ammonia/nitrite neutralizing/detoxifying agents are present, but it does seems as though it will be slowed down, speaking in theory. 

I'm not really familiar with how Amquel works, but with Prime the emphasis in the literature is that it doesn't convert or neutralize, but it detoxifies. If I recall correctly that effect isn't permanent, within something like 24 hours it'll become toxic again if not dealt with. I also seem to recall a Seachem rep indicating that these compounds will still be biologically available to bacteria and plants while in the detoxified state. That's all from hazy memory, so one probably ought to look it up to be sure.

In any case, I like the idea of using the Zeolite in situations such as this, as it exhausts it becomes a bio filter media. I don't believe it interrupts the cycle, at least when I have it in my filters it's after any mechanical or bio filtration, so any ammonia that gets by the bio media will be hopefully caught by the zeolite. 

In a fishless cycle the ultra high levels of ammonia, nitrite, etc, tend to build up the biofilter to levels higher than actually necessary for a small volume of fish, but then I consider that to be a good thing anyway (better to have more than necessary). 

Water changes are the best, least expensive method for dealing with an excess of toxic compounds, because we're diluting them to safer levels until the biological filtration is better established. 

If I recall correctly, also, 1ppm Ammonia becomes 1ppm Nitrite, which becomes 1ppm Nitrate, but someone please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. The cycling topic isn't one that I've visited personally lately. In any case, levels of Nitriate up to and including 40ppm aren't anything to really worry about.

When I cycled my 75 gallon I just tossed a cocktail shrimp in there, when it was "gone" I moved in the fish and plants (after a full water change).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Your Prime info is pretty much what I remember as well, indiboi. What I remember is 48hrs, though, then it's _slowly_ released.. to the biofilter if there is one.

I also remember that they have no clue how it really works and everything was basically an accidental discovery on their part, possible made up of other peoples' discoveries. I can tell you that Prime's effect on nitrate is nill without a super overdose. I found this out by putting drops of Prime in a test tube that showed 10ppm nitrate, it took a lot of drops to turn it yellow. Compared to the average volume of tank water with nitrate levels considered toxic, that's a "ton" of Prime. I never did the test with amm and nI to see what happens, hopefully it's more effective against nitrite.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Well just tested my water.
ph-6.8
nI- 10 ppm
nA- 1.0 ppm
my amm test kit has seemed to vanished..... ?
Anyways the levels have started to rise a bit. Neons still seem to be doing fine for the time being. 

If I get a huge spike in nI and amm levels would it be ok to use the amquel, to bring them down a bit, untill I get that 75g tank moved on Thurs? 
Then finish cycling the 15g fishless with all the ludwigia.

Oh and I think I figured out why my "loner" Neon has a red color gill. I think he is missing one of his gill plates. After researching it a bit I found that it can happen and isnt harmfull to the fish (hopefully).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Amquel will help but won't solve the problem, only water changes and plants can do that, or good absorbent filter media. 10ppm can be considered a huge nitrite spike and I would be on that asap, very deadly. Bring it down to 0.25ppm with as many partial WCs as it takes. Nitrite can be more toxic than amm. 

Try to save some of your nitrAte test at this point too, it'll be one of your most used tests and runs out quick for me. Nitrate will always be there, you can test periodically to make sure there isn't an insane buildup, but technically that's impossible when doing daily WCs to keep amm and nI down. It's good to log it and see the nitrogen cycle working, but beyond that, testing nitrate during a fish cycle with daily WCs is a waste of reagent.

Don't fret over the amm kit yet, the water changes it'll require to keep nI down at this point will certainly be enough to knock out amm as well, don't stop looking for it though. IME, nitrite's the most stubborn part of the cycle, the good news is you're about half way through it, give or take, depending on how fast they're building now.

Increase aeration at this point to try and counteract some of nitrites effects. You'll find information that suggests adding salt to fight nitrite poisoning, IMO tons of plants will do a better job by wiping out nitrite where it starts, and salt can quickly destroy plants. Many fish species can't tolerate that kind of TDS either (total dissolved solids) particularly scaleless catfish and soft water fish.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO I'd recommend a PWC and skip the AmQuel together. Indiboi's suggestion of adding zeolite to the filter sounds like an excellent suggestion.

Indiboi- Totally agree about cycling and PWC and fish, and I've become a huge proponent of the cocktail shrimp method. Recent research is suggesting that nitrAte is more harmful to fish than initially believed, however, and linking nitrAte to HLLE and such. I'll have to dig out that article... it may have been in TFH but I'm not sure?

I've been hearing enough about Seachem Prime (here and elsewhere) that I will be a convert after using up my current supply of TetraSafe (used that stuff since I was a kid, too- lol)


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

An amquel dose will detoxify some of the initial buildup after the water change. It won't stop it from happening though, and it certainly can't hold onto it forever.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

jaidexl said:


> An amquel dose will detoxify some of the initial buildup after the water change. It won't stop it from happening though, and it certainly can't hold onto it forever.


Scratch that, I just remembered big doses of Amquel Plus can lower O2, not something you want to do during nitrite spikes as it hinders gill/blood performance. Amquel could turn out to be the last straw to kill the fish. I'd run out and get Prime asap, pick up a ton of stems while you're out.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok did 3 20% WC to get the nitrite levels down. 
jaidexl- Tomorrow heading over to the LFS to pick up some more steam plants and some Prime. Oh and yeah it says only to add amquel to well aerated tank. Ive got a large air stone in at the moment to help. 
lauraleellbp- Added white diamond zeolite to my filter last night. Thanks indiboi! I should put it after my biofilter right?
The Neons seem to love darting in and out of the ludwigia haha and Thursday cant get here soon enough.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Growerguy said:


> lauraleellbp- Added white diamond zeolite to my filter last night. Thanks indiboi! I should put it after my biofilter right?



That's how I do it. I don't know if it really makes a difference, but uncommon sense indicates it'd be better that way, right?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

I figured lol because the bacteria feed off the amm. Haha good thing I have more uncommon sense then the average bear... (hopefully)
Thanks again everyone. I would be lost without this help.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

I went to the LFS today and got some more Ludwigia and another stem plant that I dont know the name. The guy was hesitant to sell me them because he claimed they would all die with my tank being so new, even though I told him I had 30 watts of grow lights over the top and use flourish. 
I donno should I up my watts a little and maybe build a simple diy co2?
Allso would a sword plant of some kind be good for taking in the nitrites? with the larger leaves and what not? haha or do plants take nitrites in only threw the roots?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

A sword wouldn't hurt, it's just they don't grow nearly as fast as stem plants. It's that rapid growth rate that allows the stems to suck up the nitrogenous compound in correspondingly rapid fashion.

Was this the same LFS that sold you fish for an uncycled tank, that is now suddenly concerned for the welfare of plants?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

That LFS guy is clueless... typical.

I personally wouldn't run CO2 until nitrites are gone, DIY may or may not create enough to harm the fish but it's a gamble that isn't worth it to me when they're possibly having a hard time breathing already. The risk of nitrite poisoning plus CO2 overdose would be too much stress IMO. I grow scraps in a bucket with less then 30w and no CO2 so yours should be ok. 

I don't know, someone should chime in on that one, is the advantage of faster growth worth the risk of CO2 overdose during possible nitrite poisoning? Could give you an advantage, or go south, a balancing act out of your hands except for the decision to risk it.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO with the current cycling crisis, I'd go with one less variable and skip CO2. At least for now.

Growerguy- With the additon of zeolite to your filter and some new stems to your setup, what are your parameters looking like today? How are the fish? Have you done another PWC today, or possibly it may not even be needed?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok I understand more then why stem plants are good. Right now Ive got the tank FULL of ludwigia and tropical hornwort, allso I have a cryptocoryne luten and a kleinen bar sword plant. 
It was a different store that sold me the Neons. The place I went to today usually has very knowledgable staff, the kid that said the plants would die I havnt seen before. I told him I use ferts and have help from lots of cool people online LOL and he just looked at me funny and said uhhh ok. Looking at the store I got the Neons from... ya that place is a dump... about the best I can say. Hey even I can be dumb. Lesson learned- dont let the excitement of starting something new stop you from researching first.
The Neons are swiming mini-school style in the ludwigia and around the sword. They seem to be doing alot better.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

lauraleellbp-
Params
ph- 6.8
nI- 1.0 ppm
nA- just under 20 ppm
amm- still dont know what happened to the test, and unfortunatly the LFS was sold out.

Nitrites have gone down though and the nitrates have gone up a bit. Today Ive only done a PWC when I woke up this morning.
But yeah Ill just wait on the co2 for awhile yet.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What are your parameters? It could be that the zeolite and plants have tipped the balance and you're through cycling- but for the sake of the tetras you should probably keep a close eye on it.

If your plants start melting or dying, make sure to remove the dead portions- rotting plants are sure-fire way to send ammonia levels back up. Crypts are notorious for melting when moved (they come back, but you need to trim the dead leaves).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Well, you've had a massive jump in nitrates, so good things just happened as long as your tap doesn't have nitrate (test it to be sure). If not then I think you're at the stage where ammonia is being consumed immediately.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Just for clarification, you didn't accidentally mix up the nitrate and nitrite params you posted yesterday on page 2, did you?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ill make sure I watch out for dead leaves. My crypt did loose a couple but I pulled them before the melted completely. 
That would be awesome if the tank has cycled allready. Ill keep a vigilant eye on the params still and PWC when if I need to. Just 4 1/2 more days and Ill have that established 75g that I will probably transfer the Neons to and supply them with some more swimming buddies.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

jaidexl- LOL I think I may have mixed them up. Haha Its been an eventfull last couple days. 
Tested the tap and its 0 on the nitrate. 
Thank you again so much everyone!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Oh, you can put the crypt back in, leafless, melting is quite normal when they've been disturbed.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Ok, so nitrate production didn't jump as much as I thought, steadily climbing though, good enough for now. Hopefully everything will be gone in a day or two from the addition of stems.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Growerguy- just keep an eye on the parameters on the 75gal too- I know it's coming "established" but big changes and moves can still cause bacteria die-offs and spikes... just something to look out for.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks, I will. I was planing on letting it sit for a day at least to check how things are doing. Im told he has a lot of plecos and catfish in there right now... Could that mean I might have to watch out for nitrate spikes if Im adding a smaller bio load to begin with? or is it more the case of you cant have to many bacteria? 
I guess allso that a smaller bio load wont be creating as much ammonia...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

It can be tough balancing out the bioload vs. N-bacteria in any system. One advantage to going heavy with plants is that they really do a good job buffering the impact such changes can make in a system. If your new tank doesn't have many plants (maybe you said but I don't remember- lol!) I would start stuffing them in as long as they've got the lighting to support them!

(You can always dose with nitrogen-containing ferts if the bioload is not providing enough for the plants)


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Unfortunatly dont get the 75g till Thursday. 
Plants shouldnt be to much of a problem. The 75g is coming with a light system that the guy used for a reef tank, only he is swaping the bulbs for a planted freshwater. Dont know how many watts just yet but I can allways throw more on. 
Planing on taking everything (or most of everything) out of my 15g and putting it in my 75g. The plan if the params are good is to move the Neons in there as soon as I can and get more. 
For ferts Ive got Seachem flourish right now. Any others you would suggest?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Hahaha LFS didnt sell me Ludwigia... Its Bacopa! LOL


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## praxis5624 (Apr 2, 2006)

*Neon Troubles*

I agree with all the info. provided here and stress all to not add neons, cardinals or any sensitive tetras to newly/ semi acclimated cycled tanks. Neons are real sensitive to water problems and are extremely stressed in many retail tanks. Many articles online state many neons and cardinal tetras are wild caught and in my personal experience, many die because they are trained to eating aquarium foods, they also succumb to the Neon Disease known to all and differences in water parameters they are indigenous to. Another important discovery is that they can be territorial toward each other. I have many and watch daily how males display and chase one another from their territory. I occassionally see injuries to the tail and midsection areas from battles and recommend to keep no less than 12 to reduce aggression. Here is a pic of my neon tank. There are 16 neons and one pair of pineapple guppies, they are living peacefully with cherry shrimp. They were acclimated and medicated in a twenty gallon hospital tank for three weeks and fed baby brine shrimp until they accepted prepared foods two weeks later. Alot of times neons and similiar species are thin when purchased and are prone to disease when purchased and transported home. Use this info. wisely and good luck. They should be feeding well before introduced into an established tank where other fish can be affected by disease.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Grower- agree with Decepticon (and OMG I loved transformers as a kid!!). Also on a totally unrelated topic- is that a pic of your son in your avatar?

OK back on topic- you need to go over and digest all the stickies on fertilization in the "science of aquatic fertilization" forum; I'm still in this process myself so I can't even get ya too far! (been keeping fish for 20+ years; plants successfully for only 2? lol)

Bacopa is a good choice for your tank anyways- easy to grow and a great nutrient-hog. Even from South America, same as your tetras!


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

So should I hold off on getting more neons for awhile? Maybe keep the tetras in the 15g if the params stay stable? They are feeding like little pigs and swimming together all over the tank at least. Im only feeding them a small small pinch of flake food 2 times a day.  
lauraleellbp- Yep thats my little son. He is allmost 3 months old. Lives with his mother so I need something to do (aquariums) when he isnt around. Which is every day except weekends. 
Haha but back on topic. Ive been reading things on ferts. Picked up a few books on aquatic plants. Im hoping I can use my greenhouse experiance on this one. Just dont want to make a mistake though and assume they are like greenhouse plants. 
Didnt know Bacopa was from SA. Hehe guess I was in a half daze when I saw it was Bacopa last night. Maybe I should turn the 15g into an Peruvian Biotope.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

yeah both tanks will have gone through some pretty dramatic changes over the past few weeks, and better safe than sorry. IMO I'd want to be sure that the water parameters stay steady for at *least* a few more days?

If you wanted to leave just your neons in the 15gal and get a few more in a few days, that would be fine- they're a good sized fish for that size tank. Maybe a few pygmy cories to act as scavengers, plus some shrimp to eat algae would make a lovely tank. Just space out additions and don't overdo it, cuz it's not a big tank. 

A biotope sounds fun, too, and in that case you could switch out the shrimp with a few oto cats (Otos are in the Amazon but not sure about Peru)?

PS your son is ADORABLE! congratulations!


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Leaving the Neons in the 15g and making a Peruvian biotope is what Im leaning towards right now. Ive been watching the Neons for most of the day and they have been swimming together and have perked up alot. Ill wait another week or so and keep an eye on the params. 
Ive started researching Peru. Ill have to make a journal while I make the 15g a biotope.
Thank you! Im the proudest dad in the world.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Ahh, but wouldn't it be so incredible to have a gigantic school of Neons in that 75?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

HAHAHA yes! Yes it would! To keep them in the 15g or the 75g... That is the question. All day I have been going back and forth. Ill let it play around in my mind for the next week and see after I get the 75g set up and what not.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Eeeek my nitrite levels spiked a bit today. nI - 3.0
Did 2 20% WC and things seem to be ok now.  Man I learned my lesson cycling with neons. 
They love the Bacopa.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Hehe, that's sort of why I mentioned to just keep doing daily waterchanges and that you can expect ammonia & nitrite everyday anyway. I'm glad you're on top of this though


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

yep as long as you check every day and keep the PWCs going if your neons make it you'll have conditioned them to survive a nuclear fallout! LOL


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Havnt missed one yet.  Easy 5 min project when I get home from work. Gives me something to do.
Water and dirt are my best friends. Comes with growing up in greenhouses and working as a grower for over 2 years i guess.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think your tanks are going to do well.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Thank you lauraleellbp!  
If I could only breed them with cockroaches.... 
I will have mutant neon tetras. LOL
Zombie Neons... err. LOL
(sorry Im a huge zombie maniac)


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

ROFLBMO

OMG please anything but roaches!!


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

How about a nematode/neon hybrid? ROFL! 
See this whole cycling with neons and trying to quit smoking has made me crazy.... 
They are surviving though and happy (I hope at least).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Now that your nitrites are finally spiking, you're in the toughest part, although the last few weeks of the cycle, generally. I've had to do as many as 4 back to back WCs to get nitrites down in their second week of spiking, they're very very stubborn. Just be sure to dose Prime every day with your WC and keep the tank well aerated.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

How's everything today?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

yep nitrites are back up to 3ppm again today. Doing WCs and doseing Prime after I get done typing this. 
The neons are doing about the same. Only now they have taken to swimming in the sword plant.
Ive been turning an air stone on at night when the lights go off. Think I should keep it on in the day time allso? 
One more day till I get the 75g!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

If you're not injecting CO2 yet, then it's ok to run during the day. While injecting CO2, airstones can contribute to faster gas off and waste of CO2.

Don't be afraid to double dose the Prime. It takes a lot to affect nitrite and nitrate, and it's safe to overdose.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok sounds good. Thanks jaidexl!


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok set up the 75g and let it sit for a day and a half. ph- 7.2 ammo- 0 nI- 0 nA- 10. 
Transfered everything from the 15g to the 75g. Added 6 more Neons. Looking good so far haha.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

mine had the same thing, its probably gill disease, treat it with Maracyn-two, it will heal


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks fishman Ill pick some up tomorrow.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Wait, what are we going to treat which fish with antibiotics for?


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

My one Neon has overly red gills. I guess I should have said I will look into it. Sorry its been a long eventfull day and Im in a half sleep/daze.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Hold up, don't go medicating fish that are acting fine. Strange behavior and red gills are perfectly common for any fish in a cycling aquarium. You're doing the right thing by providing clean water with 0ppm amm and nI, don't medicate unless you're darn sure there is a need to and what the issue actually is. When it's something like ammonia and nitrites in the water, meds aren't the fixer, cleaning up the water is.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I would attribute any gill redness to exposure to the ammonia and nitrite during the cycling. It'll probably clear up on its own.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

^^^ ditto


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok thanks guys! Im operating on slow. 
Working 22 hours and moving a semi full 75g tank and filling it back up in 2 days really wore me out! hehe


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL get some rest- it's the weekend!


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

One other thing,

If you do ever head out for meds for whatever reason, pick up a cheap 5 or 10gl All-Glass tank, a few plastic plants and an air pump/air stone. This will be your hospital tank, the last thing you ever want to do is dump meds into your main display tank. More often than not, certain meds destroy biofilters, plants, sometimes inverts, can stress other tank mates to death and can even permanently stain your tank's silicone, equipment etc. You want a bare bottom, stripped down tank with an air stone running strong, and some artificial decor for the fish to hide in, no light, a heater and thermometer may be necessary and a small HOB (hang on back) filter with some carbon can be used after treatment to strip meds out of the water.

Now go dry off your arms and sleep!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Yep, definitely opt for the 10 gallon hospital if it ever would become necessary. Most meds are prohibitively expensive if not used in a small tank. Maracyn, for example, comes in little packets meant to go into 10 gallon aquariums anyway.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Good point, meds are too pricey for large tanks.

I use 5gl buckets, although they stink for treating ich or anything that requires close observation.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok I have a couple 10g I can use when the time comes. Hopefully I wont have to medicate any fish for a long time..
I've got to be at work at 7am, I only get every other weekend off. Plants need to take days off! 
Thank you everyone! Drying my arms off and hitting the pillow.


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

Ok everything looks in good order with the 75g! 
 Slowly have been adding Neons and a couple Yoyo loachs. Haha now I currently have 15 Neons that all seem healthy and happy.
Params ->
nA - 10
nI - 0
ammo - 0
ph - 7.2

Thank you again everyone!


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