# Cycling and Low PH



## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*Mostly Ionized*

Hi,

As long as you keep pH 6 or lower you will be fine, assuming plants and critters do not mind pH 6 water, they shouldn’t since it appears your Carbonate hardness is 10-dKH.

At pH 6, essentially all of the ammonia/ammonium is in the ammonium (ionized) form, at 25℃ (77℉) total ammonia is 99.94% ammonium.

Ammonium is essentially non-toxic and a great, highly usable form of Nitrogen, which I suspect is what your Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba' really likes (along with the Carbon).

My recommendation is to keep the CO₂ on 24-hours a day to maintain a constant pH 6, pH 5.8 is a little better, mainly just stable pH.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> As long as you keep pH 6 or lower you will be fine, assuming plants and critters do not mind pH 6 water, they shouldn’t since it appears your Carbonate hardness is 10-dKH.
> 
> ...


My CO2 is on a PH monitor, so my PH stays steady pretty much constantly. The only time there is a slight spike is when I do a water change, but it gets back down within an hour or two. 

I was just concerned because I get the feeling with my PH so low, my tank isn't really cycling at all. I suppose if the ammonium isn't toxic to fish, then it wouldn't need to cycle really. I just don't want to start adding fish and have there be issues controlling ammonia. 

I've been getting pretty good growth out of a few plants -- in particular the cuba and the hygrophilia polysperma. The AR has rooted very very nicely, but is still melting off some leaves. I'm curious to see if my DHG ends up carpeting. It's still melting back as well. I want to wait until the melting is done at least before I start adding fish, just to be safe. Plus, I want to make sure everything is rooting up and growth is fine. A lot easier to pull something and replace it while the tank isn't stocked with fish. 

On another note, I tried out stability in my quarantine tank to help cycle it. Normally not too into the idea of bottled cycling, but it seems to be working like a charm, which is rather surprising. The tank has been up for three days now and I have not done a single water change. Ammonia read 0 tonight when I tested it. Very interesting!


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Actually, the percentage ammonium and ammonia at 25oC is virtually the same up to a pH of around 7.5. For this reason there is no benefit compromising the nitrogen cycle at such a low ph on the basis of ammonium species.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Okedokey said:


> For this reason there is no benefit compromising the nitrogen cycle at such a low ph on the basis of ammonium species.


I'm sorry, I'm not following this. Would you mind explaining a little bit more? 

Basically I'm reading anything under 7.4 PH is going to result in pretty much all ammonium? My concern is what impact does that have on cycling a tank?


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

It's not the percentage of NH4+ to NH3 that upsets bacterial colonization. The H+ ions from acids directly hamper nitrification bacteria's protein synthesis and disturbs ion balance between the inside and outside of the cell. 

That said, there are a few different types of bacteria, and some can colonize lower pH better. If you are concerned about it keep your co2 on 24/7 and reach a certain ph then stay there. Bacteria will move in, albeit a bit slower.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

What's your KH and dGH?


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Positron said:


> It's not the percentage of NH4+ to NH3 that upsets bacterial colonization. *The H+ ions from acids directly hamper nitrification bacteria's protein synthesis* and disturbs ion balance between the inside and outside of the cell.


I am curious as to how this occurs; do you have a reference?


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Ditto: Do you have a reference? 

I have had problems with the fishless cycle when the pH drops. In my tanks this happens when the substrate removes the carbonates from the water, so I do not know if it is the low pH (about 6) or the low KH (0 per 3 different tests). Could be both. These bacteria use the carbon in the carbonates. 

I know when they are culturing these bacteria they keep the water very hard and alkaline. 

To finish the fishless cycle you could add more carbonates, or complete the cycle in a different tank (bucket... ) and then move the media to the low pH tank. 
The bacteria may not be very active when you move them, but at least you are starting with a big colony, and not trying to make them reproduce and grow under conditions where they do not reproduce or grow well. 

I simply added potassium bicarbonate to the tank to keep the KH about 5 degrees and the fishless cycle finished out just fine.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Sure, the references for this are abundant on the internet, and they always give the same range of pH's that the bacteria prefer.

Taken from: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle

_The pH is also a vital factor in nitrification. Maximum rates of nitrification occur at pH values above 7.2, peaking at 8.3 (a common pH for marine tanks) then falling at higher values. What surprised me was the rate at which the effectiveness of nitrification dropped in acidic pH values: to less than 50% optimal efficiency at pH 7.0, to just under 30% at pH 6.5, and to just over 10% of maximal efficiency at pH 6.0. At these low pH values, nitrifying bacteria don't die, they just stop metabolizing and reproducing. Of course in these acidic conditions, most of the toxic NH3 is ionized to non-toxic NH4. But I had been under the impression (and had mentioned here) that the pH needed to drop quite low, below pH 4.8, more like the acidity of a peat bog rather than conditions in a home aquarium, to repress nitrification. Not so._

As for the actual mechanism of suppression, I've gotten that info from behind a pay wall from scholarly articles, and from the library at the university.


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## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*NH₃ is Nasty Stuff, Be Not Deceived*



mmcgill829 said:


> I'm sorry, I'm not following this. Would you mind explaining a little bit more?
> 
> Basically I'm reading anything under 7.4 PH is going to result in pretty much all ammonium? My concern is what impact does that have on cycling a tank?


 Hi mmcgill829, 

I will answer my friend Okedokey specifically in a bit; I suspect there will be some (hopefully) interesting conversation.

For the moment, mmcgill829 please accept that what Okedokey provided is correct, though misleading in this context. What Okedokey’s chart indicates is just how toxic ammonia (un-ionized form) is.

Using Okedokey’s example the total ammonia has 31.2 times more ammonia at pH 7.5 than at pH 6.0. Using your pH 7.4 example there is 24.8 times more ammonia than at pH 6.0


I would expect the tank to cycle, eventually, under pH 6.5, or so things are a little iffy, but the little bugs have a way of adapting and hanging on. 

The addition of Nitrifying bacteria may be helpful; though I have not tried any in the last few years; my understanding is folks are much better at packaging and delivering the bugs these days. 

Nitrifying bacteria are obligate chemoautotrophs, difficult to identify and isolate in pure culture, so any technique to deliver Nitrifying bacteria is beyond my meager understanding. I am amazed by and in awe of autotrophic ammonia-oxidizing bacteria, but then I find that it happens at all, the whole process is intriguing and humbling,

I am having a difficult (health) day; I will provide citations later and further answer to Okedokey, and I think I understand what Positron is saying, I can provide the easily available references.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Over complication Joe.

The issue is the unionized version of ammonia. At a pH of 7 for example and 26oC the total fraction of ammonia that is unionized is 0.006. This means to achieve a harmful level of ammonia in solution you would need an overall value of Total Ammonia Nitrogen (e.g. the test kit value) of over 2ppm (mg/L). This would achieve the threshold of 0.05 mg/L of ammonia determined to harmful to fish (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa0310)

So to be clear and practical, at a pH of 7 or below, at 26oC or below, any tested value of ammonia (TAN) from a test kit below 1ppm is fine as the actual harmful unionized fraction will be minuscule. Ideally it will be zero however on most cycled tanks.

So to answer the OPs question, running a tank with a pH of less than 6 is only beneficial where the specific species require it, otherwise you're significantly slowing down the nitrogen cycle. You want the tank to be between 6.5 and 7 imo which is the optimal conditions (where stable) for nitrobacterium and toxic forms of ammonia.


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

I should headline my previous statement saying it's not how much NH3 or NH4+ in the water by saying large amounts of NH3 regardless will kill just about anything. Having an ammonia level of 10ppm or more will be extremely toxic to any living thing. 

If you are keeping the levels to 1 or even 2 ppm it will not slow down bacterial growth even if the pH is above 7. In fact there is a parabolic relationship to how fast the bacteria will grow based on NH3 concentration. I'm not sure what the optimal levels are, though.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> will this cause my tank to stall with the cycling process?


Yes. 

The low pH is a problem. Or else the low KH is a problem. Perhaps both.
The quote from skeptical aquarist (in post 10) agrees with many years of answering posts just like this one, and running the fishless cycle on several tanks. 

The bacteria need the carbon from carbonates, and there are little or no carbonates in the water when the substrate removes them. The bacteria thrive in high pH water. (well, at least high 7s to low 8s)

During the fishless cycle I would dedicate the tank to growing bacteria, or else grow the bacteria in a separate container.
A bucket with the filter media drifting loose in there, bubbler. 
Or HOB filter running on a bucket of water. (yes, there are square buckets). 
With the correct water parameters to grow these bacteria as fast as possible.

KH: over 5 degrees, and 10-20 degrees is better. 
GH: Not sure if these bacteria need Ca and Mg, but better safe than sorry. 
pH upper 7s to low 8s.
I also add a dose or two of plant fertilizers. KH2PO4 and traces. Just to make sure the bacteria have all the minerals they may need. 
Maintain ammonia at 3 ppm, testing and correcting once a day.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Positron said:


> Taken from: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/nitrogen-cycle
> 
> _What surprised me was the rate at which the effectiveness of nitrification dropped in acidic pH values: to less than 50% optimal efficiency at pH 7.0, to just under 30% at pH 6.5, and to just over 10% of maximal efficiency at pH 6.0. _
> 
> As for the actual mechanism of suppression, I've gotten that info from behind a pay wall from scholarly articles, and from the library at the university.


The problem with referencing online sources is that they don't list their original sources either. I would love to see a (primary) paper on nitrification efficiency at varying pH.

For mechanisms of suppression due to pH, if you provide the basic information (title, authors, journal of publication, year of publication, etc), I can access them from work.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

This has turned into quite an interesting read! I appreciate the dialogue on this. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this concern. I have the perfect storm for low PH at the moment with ADA substrate, driftwood, and pressurized CO2 running. All of these things push PH lower. 

I've done a bit of an experiment, so to speak, with my tank since posting this. 

I had to basically do a 100% water change a few days ago because I needed to move my tank (I misjudged it's placement, so after looking at floor supports again, I found a better place for it only a few feet away). I decided to just let it sit after refilling, and continue dosing fertilizers, keeping everything else constant, and not even changing the water like I was (3x a week). 

After three days of this, I registered nitrates for the first time this evening during testing. It isn't much, but .5ppm is something. I've had my tank up and running for 10 days now. 

I did a complete battery of tests tonight to give you all a picture:

Temperature: 75F at the time of testing (it's rather cold today - in the 20s - so my heaters were struggling a bit during the day when the heat was not on. Normally maintained at 78-80 for now for optimum plant growth). 
PH: I've maintained a constant 5.8PH with my monitor/CO2 over the past three days, and had my target set at 6 before. 
kH: 2 degrees
GH: 3 degrees
TDS: 110ppm
Ammonia: 2ppm (a decrease from what I had been testing -- 4ppm was pretty constant for most of the first week of testing)
Nitrite: .5ppm (first time I've seen any nitrites at all).
Nitrates: 0ppm (to be expected).

It does seem that the tank is moving forward with cycling even at such a low PH, which is reassuring, though I'll continue testing daily moving forward just to be sure it wasn't a fluke. I was afraid that it would not cycle at all. I didn't want to lessen my CO2 because it's been giving me excellent results. From planting rootless stems of Ludwigia Cuba on day 3, to day 10 having them rooted all the way to the base of the tank (I have them in the back, in 4.5inches of substrate) and with about 3-4 inches of growth is pretty great, I think. Other plants responding well are my Hygrophilia Polysperma, AR, Hygrophila Angustifolia, etc. As far as ferts, CO2, temperature, etc are concerned, it seems to be working for plant growth, so I hesitate to change that at the moment, especially with a tank that is trying to establish itself. Once the plants grow in more, I'll most likely bring the PH up a bit and decrease the CO2 -- though my drop checker is reading a nice light green color, pretty much matching up to the reference (though accuracy of these things is questionable). 

I've seen many a chart about PH and ammonia/ammonium correlation, but little explanation about its impact on cycling, balancing cycling and establishing plants, etc. I even read somewhere that it would be fine to go ahead and add fish at such a low PH because the ammonia would be virtually non-toxic (sounded like garbage advice to me, though). 

Please continue the discussion, and feel free to comment on any of the parameters I tested today if something sticks out to you!


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Darkblade48 said:


> The problem with referencing online sources is that they don't list their original sources either. I would love to see a (primary) paper on nitrification efficiency at varying pH.
> 
> For mechanisms of suppression due to pH, if you provide the basic information (title, authors, journal of publication, year of publication, etc), I can access them from work.


There is vast amounts of work showing this in google scholar.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

mmcgill829 said:


> This has turned into quite an interesting read! I appreciate the dialogue on this. I'm sure I'm not the only one with this concern. I have the perfect storm for low PH at the moment with ADA substrate, driftwood, and pressurized CO2 running. All of these things push PH lower.
> 
> 
> Please continue the discussion, and feel free to comment on any of the parameters I tested today if something sticks out to you!


I find the conversation interesting as well. So I'll take this as a "highjack my thread it's okay" statement. :wink: However, that said this is your thread so let me explain my thoughts.

What you said about ADA substrate, driftwood and CO2 are all true. The fact is, we don't need a chemistry degree to figure all of this out. There are many debatable points you've touched on. So I won't explain in much detail. 

Aquarist should always remember K.I.S.S. Your substrate is sucking fertilizer salts being a high CEC substance. Your cycling which means your eco system is far from stabilized. Your pumping in CO2 further altering PH levels.

Simply said it's a new tank!

Very frequent water changes, 2-3 per week, for the first 1-2 months helps alleviate a lot of what your'e going through. I wouldn't try and over think anything at this point. Just change your water and wait for things to stabilize.

I doubt after a couple of months you will remember the problems you had and what may or may not have caused them. 

Okay, on to the debate lol


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## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*Nothing Overcomplicated Here*

Hi,

As I mentioned earlier you would probably see your tank cycle that seems to be happening. I do not understand your Carbonate hardness.

As long as the ammonium stayed ammonium, fish, critters in general would be okay to add, remembering to acclimate based on pH 7 or so.

Nitrites are the problem without regard to pH. Nitrite is toxic and since the religious leaders seem to oppose what is common sense or best management practices (BMP) in aquaculture folks do not add the chloride to allow the critters to overcome the nitrite and flourish. 



 (5-grams of Calcium chloride for each 10-gallons of water will give you
if anhydrous ~42-ppm chloride and 24-ppm Calcium (raises GH ~3.4-dGH)
if dihydrate ~32-ppm chloride and 18-ppm Calcium (raises GH ~2.5-dGH)
if hexahydrate ~22-ppm chloride and ~12-ppm Calcium (raises GH ~1.7-dGH.)
 
Possibly interesting, it is possible you will never see Nitrates as the bugs that oxidize Nitrites to Nitrates are slower growing and more sensitive than the ammonia to Nitrite bugs.
From here two possibilities

you have Nitrites (keep up the chloride no matter what the religious leaders say) or

 you may (already) have bacterially (from the order Planctomycetales) catalyzed ammonium oxidation with nitrite (anammox process) going, this skips Nitrate stage altogether.


 ​(NH₄⁺ + NO₂⁻ → N₂ + 2H₂O for those who care.)
 
This is interesting and not a bit overcomplicated! 

For the record I do and have kept many tanks at pH 6 and under without problem until pH 5 or so.

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I knew Calcium chloride was another source of the chloride that protects the fish so they should not get methemoglobinemia from nitrite in the water, just did not know the dose. 

Sodium chloride (table salt) will do this, too. Dose is 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons, and do enough water changes to keep the NO2 under 1 ppm. 

Of course a _fishless_ cycle would not need any chloride (from either source).


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## JoeRoun (Dec 21, 2009)

*Health and Welfare of Critters in Our Care*



Diana said:


> I knew Calcium chloride was another source of the chloride that protects the fish so they should not get methemoglobinemia from nitrite in the water, just did not know the dose.
> 
> Sodium chloride (table salt) will do this, too. Dose is 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons, and do enough water changes to keep the NO2 under 1 ppm.
> 
> Of course a _fishless_ cycle would not need any chloride (from either source).


 Hi,

Of course, that assumes it cycles, fishless or otherwise.

…BMP includes chloride for health and growth… not just treatment for brown blood…

Respectfully,
Joe
FBTB


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

JoeRoun said:


> Hi,
> 
> As I mentioned earlier you would probably see your tank cycle that seems to be happening. I do not understand your Carbonate hardness.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting! It's also quite a bit more complicated than basic nitrogen cycle information tends to be, which is good. It's important to know what is going on in order to ensure I am providing a safe place for my fish to thrive. 

I'm not sure what you mean by not understanding my carbonate hardness. If it helps any, here are the ferts I use in my tank:

Macros:
KNO3 
KH2PO4 
K2SO4
MgSO4

Micros:
Plantex CSM+B
DTPA Fe (11%)

I dose them according to EI suggestions on an alternating schedule. 

Right out of the tap, my water tests show me this:

TDS: 58ppm
Kh: 35.8ppm (2degrees)
Gh: 62.65ppm (3.5degrees)

Give or take. The Kh&GH tests aren't incredibly accurate. 

So if I'm reading this right, there could be a few different things happening:

1. I could end up cycling like normal with my nitrates eventually being converted to nitrates;
2. I could end up with no bacteria to convert nitrites to nitrates, requiring me to supplement with CaCL2. I'm not sure what you mean by this causing things to 'overcome' nitrites. Does CaCL2 react with nitrites to create non-toxic things? Also, not sure where I could find CaCL2...
3. There could be bacteria present that converts ammonia+nitrites into nitrogen gas and water (which sounds pretty awesome, actually).

I'm guessing that I could determine which method is happening by testing. If I continue seeing nitrites increase, with a subsequent nitrate spike, then a traditional cycle is taking place. If I just see nitrites continue to rise, with no nitrate production, then option two is probably what's going on. If I see an increase in nitrites to a point and then it either stabilizes or decreases, then option 3? Am I oversimplifying or have the wrong idea here?

Bump:


Diana said:


> I knew Calcium chloride was another source of the chloride that protects the fish so they should not get methemoglobinemia from nitrite in the water, just did not know the dose.
> 
> Sodium chloride (table salt) will do this, too. Dose is 1 teaspoon per 20 gallons, and do enough water changes to keep the NO2 under 1 ppm.
> 
> Of course a _fishless_ cycle would not need any chloride (from either source).


Gotcha! As Joe mentions in his reply to you, I'm concerned at the possibility of this not cycling at all -- ever. Right now, I am running my tank with no fish in it out of concern and to cycle the tank. I don't really like the idea of cycling with fish too much anyway. Just want to make sure that either the tank cycles properly, or I have a management plan in place to ensure the safety and longevity of the fish once I add them, without sacrificing plant growth or health.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> Very frequent water changes, 2-3 per week, for the first 1-2 months helps alleviate a lot of what your'e going through. I wouldn't try and over think anything at this point. Just change your water and wait for things to stabilize.
> 
> I doubt after a couple of months you will remember the problems you had and what may or may not have caused them.


Yes. I agree with the water changes. I just want to make sure that I'm not doing everything in vain if the tank is never going to properly cycle at this pH level. If it isn't going to cycle in the traditional manner, I just want to know what I need to do to manage it -- whether through adding an additional supplement or whatever. 

Of course, I could be reading too much into everything, but I couldn't help but wonder when doing some reading about the traditional bacteria that converts ammonia to nitrites having trouble growing in low pH environments.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> TDS: 58ppm
> Kh: 35.8ppm (2degrees)
> Gh: 62.65ppm (3.5degrees)


This is not hard enough water for the bacteria to grow really fast. 
When you are cycling the tank you want to set up the best possible conditions for the bacteria to reproduce as fast as possible. 

If these conditions are not what you want for the fish, then you can do a big water change after it cycles and set it up for fish with very soft water, if that is what they need. The bacteria will slow down, but that is OK. The population is there, and the plants will help. But lets get that bacteria population growing! 

I am including my fishless cycle article. Read through it and get the minerals and other parameters right for the bacteria. The cycle should leap ahead! 
Next post is the 'condensed version'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1a) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.

Bump: Here is the condensed version:

High O2 (lots of water circulation)
GH > 5 degrees, and double digits is better. 
KH > 5 degrees, and double digits is better. 
TDS (I don't worry about this so much as long as the minerals are right, but I think it would be >200)
pH between 7.5-8.5
Add plant fertilizers, especially KH2PO4 and traces. 
Maintain the ammonia at 3 ppm testing and adding it once a day. (You could test and add twice a day, but keep it at 1 ppm)
If the NO2 or ammonia get over 5 ppm do a water change. The species of bacteria you are growing do not like high levels of these.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

At least 80 degrees for optimum nitrosomonas reproduction rates. Closer to 90 for nitrobacter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

What about Nitrospira (the one you really want to grow)?

High temp may be a part of the goal, but without high oxygen the bacteria will not grow so well. A balance between high temp and high oxygen may mean the temp is better a bit lower.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Agreed


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Diana said:


> This is not hard enough water for the bacteria to grow really fast.
> When you are cycling the tank you want to set up the best possible conditions for the bacteria to reproduce as fast as possible.
> 
> If these conditions are not what you want for the fish, then you can do a big water change after it cycles and set it up for fish with very soft water, if that is what they need. The bacteria will slow down, but that is OK. The population is there, and the plants will help. But lets get that bacteria population growing!
> ...


Diana, 
Thanks for this! What a great resource!

Another note from today's observations: I noticed that some snails made it in on some plants (argh!). Curious though, are snails very tolerable of ammonia/nitrites? I would have assumed that I wouldn't have seen anything surviving other than the plants right now.

Bump: Here's a picture of the plant growth so far. Seems to be coming along well after only 11 days. Not sure why everything appears a bit yellowed in this picture. It certainly isn't in person. Might have been a light issue or my camera.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

In a weird twist of fate, tonight when doing my water tests, this is what I found:

Ammonia: 2ppm
Nitrite: 1ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

I just did water tests two days ago and wasn't even reading nitrites. Bizarre!!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Looks like the bacteria are growing! 

Side note:
What is the calcium level in your water? 
I see you are dosing magnesium. Plants need a lot more calcium than they do magnesium. Have you done tests or checked with your water company to find out which GH booster is best for you (if you need one at all)? 
Epsom Salt only has magnesium. 
Calcium chloride and similar only have calcium.
A complete GH booster will have both.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Diana said:


> Looks like the bacteria are growing!
> 
> Side note:
> What is the calcium level in your water?
> ...


Not sure what the calcium level is or how to find that out. 

Also not really sure what the best route to go with this is.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

Measure GH and it will give you calcium.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Okedokey said:


> Measure GH and it will give you calcium.


I thought GH was calcium and magnesium, not just calcium.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

It is all divalent ions however its measure can be compared to kH to give you a good idea of the calcium content.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> ...measure can be compared to kH...


How does GH relate to KH? These two tests can be all over the place. They measure different things. Not related. 

Now, if you had a Ca test and GH you could separate Mg and Ca. There is a formula for that. 

mmcgill, can you find a water test from your water company? Sometimes they will separate out Mg and Ca. 



> ...not really sure what the best route to go with this...


Best route:
If the GH of your tap water is at least 3 degrees, then you can start by assuming it has some Ca and some Mg. If your fish like soft water, then do not bother adding any GH booster. If your fish like hard water, or the GH from the tap water is under 3 degrees, then add a GH booster that has both Ca and Mg.


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## mmcgill829 (Dec 22, 2014)

Diana said:


> How does GH relate to KH? These two tests can be all over the place. They measure different things. Not related.
> 
> Now, if you had a Ca test and GH you could separate Mg and Ca. There is a formula for that.
> 
> ...


Per my water tests, GH is measuring 3 degrees. I am planning on soft water fish.
So you'd advise against adding the MgSO4 in my fert dosing?

Bump: Also, the water quality report with test results from my water company do not list Mg or Ca. I cannot seem to locate one that does.


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