# Need help with lenses



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I finally bought a fancy new camera, the Olympus OM-D E-M5 (dpreview info), which has a zillion options and features that I need to sit down and learn. But one of the first things that I'd like to check out is whether the lens I have is the right one for what I want to do. I don't think it is.

Here's what I want to do:

Zoom in to take detailed closeup pictures of fish from far away.
Take clear macro shots of fish and plants from close up so that the fish/plant is in focus and the background is blurred.
Take decent full tank shots of my tanks.
Take extremely close macro pics of things (so a tiny spec is magnified large enough to fill my computer screen in clear detail).

Here's the lens I got with the camera: M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 12-50mm (dpreview info).

I know very little about cameras, but I'm able to learn. I think the f-stop is too high (large, too big a number?) to create the effects I want. I also don't think the lens I have is able to zoom in like I want.

I'm willing to pay around $500 for another lens, but I want to be sure I get one that will do as many of the things I'm wanting. I don't want to waste my money by getting the wrong lens.

What are the main things I should be looking for in a new lens to do what I want? Does anyone have any lens recommendations? Thank you! :smile:


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

The lens is the equivalent of a 24mm -100mm. It's a mild wide angle to medium telephoto. 
It's maximum aperture at 12mm (24mm eq) is 3.5 and at 50mm (100mm eq) is 6.3

How far away form the tank do you want to be?

It's not a 1:1 macro.

How far in do you want to zoom in?

Enlarging a tiny spec to fill your computer screen however is part lens and part MP.

My advice to you since you have the lens is get comfortable with it and the camera then decide what the next lens should be. If you're not familiar with photography and your camera you're shooting in the dark. No pun intended.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd like to be far enough away from the tank that my presence does not make the fish run and hide when I try to take a picture of them. So maybe 5-10 feet?

I'd like to zoom in so that the fish fills the entire photograph (leaving just enough room on the sides to make the photo look good).

I used to be able to take photos like this with my old camera, but it's 12 years old so the photo quality wasn't as good as I wanted. Plus, it was only 3 megapixels.

Here's my gallery on dpreview. I used this as examples of pictures I wanted to take when I was trying to pick out a camera. http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/4004446829

Here are just a few example pictures from my gallery (these are my pictures from my old camera). The way I managed to get these pictures was to take the pictures in the largest size my old camera allowed and then reduced them in photoshop to help clear up the graininess. It was a royal pain, but it gave me some decent results. Ultimately, I'd like to get these kind of pics straight from the camera at full size without having to reduce them.

Here's an example of a macro I'd like to be able to take:









Here's an example of the pictures of fish I'd like to take:









Here's an example of a macro I tried to take, but my old camera just couldn't get the quality. I had wanted to zoom in on the worm much tighter than that, but that's the best I could do.


----------



## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

I do not know what the Olympus equivalent of an 18-55mm Nikon would be, but it is a very helpful lens when it comes to both fish shots and macro shots. Out of the box, it does not do very well with macros, but if you get a cheap extension ring (expect ~$10 shipped) you can take macro shots like these:














































It's a nice, cheap alternative to a "real" macro lens. As far as full tank shots, I prefer a short focal length telephoto, or something similar to an 18-105mm. Hope I helped!


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Might I suggest that you _try_ taking those type of shots with the lens since you do own it? Put the lens in macro and take some shots. Rack the lens out and see if you get the FOV you want. See if it will give you decent full tank shots. You've got the equipment in front of you to answer your question.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Geniusdudekiran said:


> you can take macro shots like these:


I'd love to be able to take pictures like those! And my camera should be able to do it. I just need to know how.



GraphicGr8s said:


> Might I suggest that you _try_ taking those type of shots with the lens since you do own it? Put the lens in macro and take some shots. Rack the lens out and see if you get the FOV you want. See if it will give you decent full tank shots. You've got the equipment in front of you to answer your question.


I've tried, and what I've ended up with is horrible. But I think I'm understanding your point. I'm already kind of drawing the same conclusion. I'm just going to put it in auto mode and start taking pictures and see what I get, then I'll go from there. I was wanting to be able to jump right in where I left off with my old camera, but I just can't do it. So I'm going to start back from the beginning and work my way up again.

One of the problems is I'm not finding any books on my specific camera. So I'm considering getting a couple of books that are for similar Olympus cameras to at least get a feel for some of the options. That might help me expand out. Plus, the lenses are the same so I can read up on those sections.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

See, now you're starting to open up a bit and giving helpful information. And I am glad you took my post how I meant it. 
First I'd recommend finding a forum for Olympus cameras. If they're anything like the guys on Pentax Forums you'll find folks that know your camera and can really help walk you through.
Second get Scott Kelby's digital photography books. I've found them helpful and have given them as gifts to newbie relatives. At least they stopped asking me the same stupid questions over and over again.
Next thing I'd recommend is to shoot manual exposure. Set an ISO That setting depends on the shot. Outside I generally use 100. Inside 400. Those are generalities of course. Once set it leave it alone. Try 800 for your tank shots. Next decide if you want to control DOF or if you want to stop a fish. DOF? set the aperture and adjust the shutter speed. Freeze subject? Set the shutter adjust the aperture. If you only adjust one thing at a time you have a basis for further adjustments. Play with all at one time and you wind up like my boss running the press. Paper won't feed he adjust air, vacuum and table height all at once and winders why it keeps jamming. I come over and after resetting to baseline I observe what's happening an adjust only what's needed. Usually 3 moves a done. Same thing with a camera. Good thing about digital it costs nothing. Now film is another story.

Almost forgot. Best book f you to read? The MANUAL!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you so much! That is very helpful! I will give your suggestions a try. It's interesting that you mention changing just one thing at a time because having been a programmer from way back when, it's a basic principle I believe in very strongly. I just didn't apply it in this case. I think I let myself get too confused so that I didn't know where to even start so I've just been putting it off which is a shame because it's a really nice camera.

The manual is what got my head spinning. It explains _how_ to set different settings, but not _why_ or what will happen. So when I did change a few things, nothing worked as I had expected, and the manual did not explain why. It basically just says if you want X setting, switch the thing to X. For Y setting, switch to Y. Well, that's only good if you have a clue what the heck X and Y do! I just barely understood what DOF in your message meant (I read about it on dpreview so I understand what it means).

I hesitated at getting a dslr type of camera for this very reason, but none of the point and shoot cameras offered the picture quality I wanted. So I decided to give it a try, but I have a big learning curve to go through now.

I'll get the book you recommended. That's what I've been looking for. And I'll give your suggestions a try. Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate the help!


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Is this the set of books you suggested? It's a box set of 4 books for $70.

http://itunes.apple.com/us/book/scott-kelbys-digital-photography/id537244029?mt=11


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Yes. I've got all four myself. So my money is where my mouth is. I was a professional shooter for over 30 years and still manage to get some tips that more than paid for the books. But you do have to like his style of writing. Not everyone does.

BTW many things in life have a step learning curve. Try Photoshop someday. And I'm a pre public beta tester. When they give it to us after alpha testing there is no manual. Or help. Talk about a learning curve. Same thing when I switched from Pagemaker to InDesign. I've used Indesign since it came out and am still learning new things and better ways of doing things I've done for years.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I can download a sample of his books to see if they have the information I need. I need something that explains all the terms and settings and what they all do. Then I can experiment with them. That's how I learned to use my other camera.

Thanks, again, for the help. :smile:


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

He doesn't tell you the techie crap. He tells you how to get the shot. Just like if you were on a shoot with him. Get down to getting decent shots. Then worry about the tech stuff.
I've got tons of books on photography and darkroom. His are still the favorites and what I recommend. When I want the etiquette for photography I go to Fenninger on Photography. For the corect weays to position a model Mortenson on the model.
To get a newbie shooting? You know the answer.

The terms and stuff you can get from google. Get shooting decent shots so you don't get discouraged. Then worry about the why


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd rather not have someone (even a book author) simply tell me what to do. I'd like to understand what I'm doing. So even if I'm told later, I'll understand what's going on.

It's the difference between being told "get this tank, get this light, add this plant" versus understanding the differences between the different tanks, lights, and plants, and then choosing our own. Yes, it's a whole lot harder to do it that way, but I don't find it very satisfying to just follow someone else's instructions without understanding the reasoning behind it all. That's probably why I'm having such a hard time with this. I actually want to learn what my camera does.

Maybe if I read the books on the other Olympus cameras, I'll be ready for the Scott Kelby books. If I tried to use them now, I may end up using them as a crutch and not learning what I need to learn.


----------



## cantthinkofonerightnow (May 31, 2012)

You could try kenrockwell.com, I found a lot of useful information on his site. I'm still trying to put it into practise but these things take time.


----------



## crf529 (Jul 24, 2010)

Understanding exposure by Bryan Petersen. Get it, read it all, then you should have a firm grasp of the basics and how to capture light. From there if you want to truly go macro you can read up on specific techniques and gear. Which I'd say for you would entail a cheap marcro (actually a 1:1 macro or greater) lens, or cheap manual lens with some extension rings and an OMD adapter, cheap Yongnuo wireless triggers and a YN560 or 2. Laughing.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Vicki you're analogy isn't apples to apples. But I see your point. I will second Understanding Exposure. I still think the Kelby books are helpful towards that understanding. I still suggest looking into an Olympus forum also.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

crf529 said:


> Understanding exposure by Bryan Petersen.


I just got it and it looks to be perfect for what I need. Thank you for the recommendation!



> or 2. Laughing.


I should probably grab a dose of this! :hihi:

I think I'm going to use Graphic's advice and start out by learning how to use the lens I have now. I have to start somewhere. I took some pictures on auto earlier today, but haven't looked at them yet so I don't know how they turned out. I noticed they aren't fast enough so if a fish swims even a little, it's immediately blurred. So what I think I'll do is play with auto, and when I run across problems like the fish being blurred, I'll target that problem and learn how to use the other settings to stop the blurring. This should get me started at least.



GraphicGr8s said:


> Vicki you're analogy isn't apples to apples. But I see your point. I will second Understanding Exposure. I still think the Kelby books are helpful towards that understanding. I still suggest looking into an Olympus forum also.


Actually, after downloading a sample of Kelby's books, I was able to read enough to see that they weren't what I was thinking. He does explain _why_ in many areas. He doesn't just say "do this" without any reasoning. So I bought the box set of his books and spent several hours reading different sections last night.

I think the combination of the Peterson and Kelby books should work well for what I'm needing. And I'll grab a book that can go over some of the Olympus camera options in better detail than the manual. Between those three resources, I should be covered.

Thanks everyone for your help! I greatly appreciate it! :smile:


----------



## T1T4N1UM (Dec 14, 2009)

Well, I'm mighty confused here, why is everybody recommending books about photography rather than actual gear? The main limitation here is gear, a kit lens like what the Olympus came with usually has a reproduction ratio of around 1:5 or 1:6. What you're looking for is a macro lens, and a quick Google search came up with this.

http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lense.html

Although the books you were linked to will provide some help, it does not rectify the problem of not being able to get close enough to your subject. 

This is probably the right lens for your close up shots:
http://panasonic.net/avc/lumix/systemcamera/gms/lens/dg_macro_45.html

Keep in mind all m4/3 lenses will work on that camera.


----------



## crf529 (Jul 24, 2010)

T1T4N1UM said:


> Well, I'm mighty confused here, why is everybody recommending books about photography rather than actual gear? The main limitation here is gear, a kit lens like what the Olympus came with usually has a reproduction ratio of around 1:5 or 1:6.


All the gear in the world is pointless if you don't even know what the exposure triangle is. And no the lens isn't 1:1, but if you're just starting then cropping to get in closer is alright until you can consistenly turn out a decent photo.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

T1T4N1UM said:


> Well, I'm mighty confused here, why is everybody recommending books about photography rather than actual gear? The main limitation here is gear, a kit lens like what the Olympus came with usually has a reproduction ratio of around 1:5 or 1:6. What you're looking for is a macro lens, and a quick Google search came up with this.
> 
> http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lense.html
> 
> ...


Isn't that lens over $700.00-?

Not sure about Olympus but there has to be a decent 1:1 macro for it less then that. 
Since she has the other lens already she could just get a Olympus ZUIKO DIGITAL 35mm f/3.5 Macro Lens for the 1:1 macro. Heck of a lot cheaper.


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

crf529 said:


> All the gear in the world is pointless if you don't even know what the exposure triangle is. And no the lens isn't 1:1, but if you're just starting then cropping to get in closer is alright until you can consistently turn out a decent photo.


Well said. +1


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

T1T4N1UM said:


> Well, I'm mighty confused here, why is everybody recommending books about photography rather than actual gear? The main limitation here is gear, a kit lens like what the Olympus came with usually has a reproduction ratio of around 1:5 or 1:6. What you're looking for is a macro lens, and a quick Google search came up with this.
> 
> http://www.four-thirds.org/en/microft/lense.html
> 
> ...


Thank you! I'm checking it all out. I love that first link. Hadn't seen that before. I like having some idea of what my choices are.



crf529 said:


> All the gear in the world is pointless if you don't even know what the exposure triangle is. And no the lens isn't 1:1, but if you're just starting then cropping to get in closer is alright until you can consistenly turn out a decent photo.


I can learn. :smile: You should have seen me when I first stared my high tank aquariums. I was clueless! :hihi:

I need all of it. I need to learn about the concepts, tips, and proper equipment. Think of it in the same way as a person who wants to get an injected CO2 system. Just because they're learning the basics doesn't mean you automatically have them use a Milwaukee regulator without at least telling them about the better 2-stage regulators that are out there.

I'd like to at least know what's out there that would fit my needs. I'll do my homework before buying. But even if I do waste my money and buy the wrong gear or buy gear I'm too dumb to ever learn to use (ha!), that's my problem. It's not for someone else to prejudge for me.



GraphicGr8s said:


> Isn't that lens over $700.00-?
> 
> Not sure about Olympus but there has to be a decent 1:1 macro for it less then that.
> Since she has the other lens already she could just get a Olympus ZUIKO DIGITAL 35mm f/3.5 Macro Lens for the 1:1 macro. Heck of a lot cheaper.


The dpreview on that lens mentioned a comparable lens that turns out to be much less. I don't know if it's what I will end up getting, but it's something I can most certainly check out. http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Telep...U7I6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344544942&sr=8-1. Suggestions don't always have to be taken exactly as given. Sometimes the best thing about suggestions is that they can springboard other ideas.

As I've said all along, I'm appreciative of all the help I receive. Please don't baby me. If I get over my head, that's my problem. If I spend too much money, it's my money. Yes, I'm very ignorant on the subject right now, but everyone is in the beginning. I have to start somewhere. Give me time, and I'll figure it out – at least to the degree that I feel I need to know in order to accomplish my goals. So I welcome any and all suggestions, even those that are clearly over my head (as most will be at this point!). :hihi:


----------



## T1T4N1UM (Dec 14, 2009)

The Panasonic is the only m4/3 macro I could find. IIRC the 2 Olympus lenses are both 4/3 lenses, meaning you would need an adapter for it to work.

And the reason I'm not a fan of recommending the books is because simple Google searches can provide you with the same technical knowledge needed to get started on shooting. Now as a disclaimer, I haven't read the books so I don't know if they do have some magic tips on photography in there that will make all pictures perfect ;~) ... but the following link should be able to teach you everything.

http://digital-photography-school.com/learning-exposure-in-digital-photography


----------



## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Complexity said:


> As I've said all along, I'm appreciative of all the help I receive. Please don't baby me. If I get over my head, that's my problem. If I spend too much money, it's my money. Yes, I'm very ignorant on the subject right now, but everyone is in the beginning. I have to start somewhere. Give me time, and I'll figure it out – at least to the degree that I feel I need to know in order to accomplish my goals. So I welcome any and all suggestions, even those that are clearly over my head (as most will be at this point!). :hihi:


There is an old saying: "Learn by others mistakes". Then go on and make your own.

When I was a teen learning to shoot I met a guy on CB who was a semi pro. He took me under his wing and taught me like Kelby's books teach. Yes, I learned the tech side soon enough. But his tutelage got me shooting decent stuff without getting discouraged.


----------

