# Dual gauge co2 regulator vs simple single gauge?



## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Both are OK. 

Some people have good experiences with both brands. Others have had bad experiences with both brands.

With pressurized CO2 equipment, you get what you pay for.


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## RoyalFizbin (Mar 7, 2006)

You want a dual *Stage* regulator. Whether a regulator has dual gauges or not is not an indication that it is a dual stage regulator.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

You can go either way, I got a Aquatic Life and I'm building my own. If you can find some good deals, then why not. Just keep a look out on various auction sites, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. Also, you're from the US, shipping won't be so expensive. 

Up north here, it's either local or somehow get extremely lucky. 

Hi!


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## CallMeSteveO (Feb 25, 2013)

RoyalFizbin said:


> You want a dual *Stage* regulator. Whether a regulator has dual gauges or not is not an indication that it is a dual stage regulator.


Alright, how would one know if it is a single or dual *Stage* regulator?
What is the difference?

I am leaning more toward the Azoo just because they give more info on the product. The Milwaukee gives very little to none.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

neither of those are dual stage.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=151430&highlight=
this should help you.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Personally I wouldn't buy those China made regs.

Get oldpunk or bettatail to build you reliable & solid regs. 

Sent from HTC One device using Tapatalk2


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

you don't need to spend $100 for a regulator when you can get an O2 regulator off ebaaaay for $30.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Nothing wrong with dual STAGE, but it's pretty much overkill for the aquarium application IMO. I've been using very basic regs like azoo and milwaukee for a long time and never once experienced this so-called EOTD. I also don't replace my cylinders until nothing is coming out of the diffuser.


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## exv152 (Jun 8, 2009)

CallMeSteveO said:


> Alright, how would one know if it is a single or dual Stage regulator?
> What is the difference?
> 
> I am leaning more toward the Azoo just because they give more info on the product. The Milwaukee gives very little to none.


More info does not translate into better quality. Milwaukee has good customer service and I still don't think they're worth what they're charging. But to answer your question about dual vs single stage; a single stage reg reduces the gas pressure in one stage, whereas dual stage regs reduce the pressure in two stages (it basically has two single stages in one). Dual is more accurate than the single and less likely (or not at all) to fluctuate over time. When the supply pressure decreases from the cylinder the dual stage will still deliver a steady supply. Meaning you won’t asphyxiate your fish. That said I have two single stage regs, a micromatic and a cornelius, and I've never witnessed an EOTD either.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Nothing wrong with dual STAGE, but it's pretty much overkill for the aquarium application IMO. I've been using very basic regs like azoo and milwaukee for a long time and never once experienced this so-called EOTD. I also don't replace my cylinders until nothing is coming out of the diffuser.


+1 

Logically, if the azoo and milwaukee had major problems that were common, I'm sure they would not be selling these rigs year after year. Houseofcard is right in that respect.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

If I were you, I'd jump on one of these.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...ith-solenoid-check-valve-vernier-needle-valve

Single stage, but a vernier NV will almost cost you this much. Plus they came off Tom's tank so you know they are rock solid.


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## CallMeSteveO (Feb 25, 2013)

Okay so from what I am reading about dual and single STAGE regulators is that "sometimes" you can get an end of tank dump with a single. A double eliminates that issue. Correct?

What if I just don't let me tank empty. If I have a 2.5lb tank and I use it until the tank gets down to lets say 200psi and I just refill it then instead of letting it empty. Would that not also eliminate the "end of tank dump?"


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Uhm, pretty sure everyone with a single stage does that. If you decide to go the paintball route, get an adapter and this beautiful JT model which let you see how much CO2 is left.










*horn - toot toot


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## BriDroid (Oct 7, 2012)

You can spend as much as you want, or if you're willing to wait, you can get pretty cheap.

I picked up a used Victor single stage regulator on ebay for $25. I had to put the CGA320 part on it since it was being used for argon. I also picked up a Clippard mouse solenoid from ebay for $12 and a Swagelok needle valve for $24 from another forum. It's a pretty nice setup for cheap. It just took about 3 months to find all the parts. In the meantime I was just using whatever cheap components I could find.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

CallMeSteveO said:


> Okay so from what I am reading about dual and single STAGE regulators is that "sometimes" you can get an end of tank dump with a single. A double eliminates that issue. Correct?


Yes



CallMeSteveO said:


> What if I just don't let me tank empty. If I have a 2.5lb tank and I use it until the tank gets down to lets say 200psi and I just refill it then instead of letting it empty. Would that not also eliminate the "end of tank dump?"


Yes.

For more information regarding pressurized CO2, please take a look at my Primer to Pressurized CO2 (linked in my signature below).


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

CallMeSteveO said:


> Okay so from what I am reading about dual and single STAGE regulators is that "sometimes" you can get an end of tank dump with a single. A double eliminates that issue. Correct?..


That might be technically true, but to keep things in their proper prospective, your fish are much more likely to die of old age than to suffer a premature demise from EOTD.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I copy/paste this every time I respond to a question about "how good is a (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek)?" The following applies to all of them:

The Aquatek, Milwaukee, and Azoo, and their clones, will all be functional. But they're single stage, and low quality, and are far more likely to bust than any of the used industrial regulators many of us use and repurpose for our needs. In addition, there will be an increase working pressure as the cylinder nears the end of its fill, potentially causing problems unless you keep a careful eye on the pressure.

Furthermore, the needle valves on those units are identical, and extremely imprecise. They're functional, but barely so.

As for the solenoids, I've read little to suggest they're any more likely to fail than many of the other solenoids we've tried over the years (reasonably likely), but mine did, in any case (I had a 3M, nearly identical to a Milwaukee).

Generally, responses will vary from "love it" to "will never entertain the possibility of using one again in this lifetime", with nothing in the middle. Basically, you get what you pay for. In this case, the all-in-one rigs are cheaply purchased because they're cheaply manufactured.

I'd recommend getting somebody here to build one. Or reading the build-your-own-regulator sticky in the equipment section and piece it together yourself. Or getting one prebuilt from greenleafaquariums.com ...anybody familiar with any other companies building rigs?

To be fair, you'll definitely spend more, possibly a lot more, if you go any of these routes (building your own can cost even less, but there's a nasty learning curve, and shipping costs for multiple sources can get ugly). However, the quality upgrade is ridiculous.

However, because of the low cost, there's definitely a place for the bottom-rung regulators. If you want a cheap intro rig, that you'll certainly upgrade from at some point, and you're willing to chance a malfunction and put up with their drawbacks (though, to be honest, you won't notice some of them until you upgrade), then a Milwaukee isn't a bad deal.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

I view the mass produced, Chinese built hobby regs as a dispossable product. I view the better quality units as an investment. If that makes sense..


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## TheGuy (Jan 6, 2013)

This is somewhat off topic but what do you all think of the GLA atomic v3 in terms of build/functionality? Even if you haven't used it what could you say about it based off of it being a single guage pr whatever.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

TheGuy said:


> This is somewhat off topic but what do you all think of the GLA atomic v3 in terms of build/functionality? Even if you haven't used it what could you say about it based off of it being a single guage pr whatever.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


I personally believe it's over priced for what you get. The needle valve is touchy and it uses an o-ring to seal the cylinder connection. It only has a low pressure gauge so you get no warning of your co2 levels in you cylinder. It is made well for being made in China. It's not really something you can upgrade either. It is what it is. As small and simple possible.


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## TheGuy (Jan 6, 2013)

oldpunk78 said:


> I personally believe it's over priced for what you get. The needle valve is touchy and it uses an o-ring to seal the cylinder connection. It only has a low pressure gauge so you get no warning of your co2 levels in you cylinder. It is made well for being made in China. It's not really something you can upgrade either. It is what it is. As small and simple possible.


I found it hard to control and it suddenly went from one bps to another last night not sure. 

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## dru (Mar 9, 2013)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Uhm, pretty sure everyone with a single stage does that. If you decide to go the paintball route, get an adapter and this beautiful JT model which let you see how much CO2 is left.
> *horn - toot toot


What is the info for this setup?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

CallMeSteveO said:


> I am looking at 2 different regulators (dual gauge, w/ solenoid & bubble counter)...
> Which is a more reputable brand?
> 1.) Azoo
> 2.) Milwaukee


Neither are dual stage and both are junk. I've fried a dozen of these over the years, my victor single stages have lasted 10-20 years without issues, I have all dual stage regs and top of the line stuff now, but it did cost some $. 

If spend a lot on dual stage regs, it'll not be wasted $. 
They should last the life of the tank and then some.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

kevmo911 said:


> I copy/paste this every time I respond to a question about "how good is a (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek)?" The following applies to all of them:
> 
> The Aquatek, Milwaukee, and Azoo, and their clones, will all be functional. But they're single stage, and low quality, and are far more likely to bust than any of the used industrial regulators many of us use and repurpose for our needs. In addition, there will be an increase working pressure as the cylinder nears the end of its fill, potentially causing problems unless you keep a careful eye on the pressure.
> 
> ...


+1.

They are horse manure quality. 

And I've got a long list of experiences with them and replacements I have done for clients who killed their fish due to these brands. I will not be kind to such garbage and rightfully so. They deserved their bad rep and earned it.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Neither are dual stage and both are junk. I*'ve fried a dozen of these over the years*, my victor single stages have lasted 10-20 years without issues, I have all dual stage regs and top of the line stuff now, but it did cost some $.
> 
> If spend a lot on dual stage regs, it'll not be wasted $.
> They should last the life of the tank and then some.


I would think after your fried a couple you would have switched, but instead you kept using them, why? :icon_wink I must be the luckiest person in the world, since I've never fried one, never experienced EOTD.

So are you saying the extra money on dual stage regulators is really worth it? I would say 80-90% of setups here have single stage. Wouldn't there by EOTD stories everyday based on those numbers.


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## Tom S (Mar 5, 2013)

I'm new here, and am not to experienced with dosing CO2, but I do have some familiarity with CO2 and regulators so I'll give my two cents.

A reality that needs to be acknowledged with CO2 is that the pressure of your bottle will fluctuate with temperature. Even a degree of change will cause a pressure change, and between seasons you will see a bigger fluctuation. With a single stage regulator you will see the output pressure also fluctuate a little bit, which will change your bubble count. So you will need to check it regularly to ensure it holds steady.

A dual stage regulator is basically two regulators in series, which means that the second regulator is fed by the output of the first. So even if your bottle fluctuates quite a bit the first regulator will hold it somewhat consistent and second regulator will hold it steady. So no need to be constantly checking the bubble count.

So, the reason that you want to use a dual-stage regulator is so that you can set it and forget it. Consistency is what you want to see.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I would think after your fried a couple you would have switched, but instead you kept using them, why? :icon_wink I must be the luckiest person in the world, since I've never fried one, never experienced EOTD.
> 
> So are you saying the extra money on dual stage regulators is really worth it? I would say 80-90% of setups here have single stage. Wouldn't there by EOTD stories everyday based on those numbers.


Guy has a point.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I can't count the number of times I've read here of somebody having a dump using one of the garbage regs. Sometimes it's just a close call, and sometimes they lose a bunch of fish. That you guys haven't been reading these stories is surprising.

Do a quick "EOTD" or "pressure rise" thread search, and you're bound to see a few claims in each one. In any case, that it happens at all should be a concern.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> I would think after your fried a couple you would have switched, but instead you kept using them, why? :icon_wink I must be the luckiest person in the world, since I've never fried one, never experienced EOTD.
> 
> So are you saying the extra money on dual stage regulators is really worth it? I would say 80-90% of setups here have single stage. Wouldn't there by EOTD stories everyday based on those numbers.


Me personally or hard headed clients who believed otherwise?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> I would think after your fried a couple you would have switched, but instead you kept using them, why? :icon_wink I must be the luckiest person in the world, since I've never fried one, never experienced EOTD.
> 
> So are you saying the extra money on dual stage regulators is really worth it? I would say 80-90% of setups here have single stage. Wouldn't there by EOTD stories everyday based on those numbers.


Me personally or hard headed clients who believed otherwise?
Are we talking about the same topic here?

I've gone through over 15 of them over the years.
On the new single stage Victors? They have never failed. 

If you are only comparing a statistic of 1, then you can say things like the brand "makes feel happy". Cannot argue with that. But if you want to discuss reliability, I've gone through quite a number of them. You can cull through forums and see the stat's. I'm sure some are okay, and for some applications, for some people. 

I never once stated that they will fail for any and everyone that buys them. I also did not state anything about EOTD with them either. 
Failed solenoids, no#1 issue. Bad Check valves, terrible needle valves. 
Hence the term "fried". The regulator itself is fine near as I could tell, but with all the cheap junk they are adding to it, I toss them right away.

Water back flow into the solenoid, reg housing, check valve failures, rusted and leaky bubble counters etc, general aquarist abuse. I'm sure some take better care of their systems. Most do not.

I could say the same thing about Clippard solenoids, they seem to fail, Burkets do not. Still, those brands have caused more issues than they have helped given the $ cost and the available options. 
I've used Victor single stagers for a good 20 years now. Quite a few. 

My views on CO2 tend to be based on a lot of experience since CO2 is my main focus and has been for a few years. Going with the high grade stuff has certainly helped and made the process easier and more precise in being able to dial in the right CO2 flow rate.

All the way down to 0 psi in the tank.

I think with good checks valves, solenoids, and needle valves, the reg itself is less critical.

But, if I'm going to do a build for a CO2 gas sytems, I may as well have a decent dual stage reg with an out put adjuster that I cannot easily knock, sending the psi from say 10-15 psi to 30 psi or to 3-4 psi if I happen to hit it the other way. 

Same for the needle valve.

A good dual stage has that, and a parker H3 valve has a click stop to adjust each vernier tick mark. 

There are plenty of ways to screw up the CO2, if you have not done it yet, you are luckier than most, but........ wait.:wink:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Me personally or hard headed clients who believed otherwise?


So you have clients that insist on Milwaukee regulators? They don't take your advice? I'm shocked.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> If you are only comparing a statistic of 1, then you can say things like the brand "makes feel happy". Cannot argue with that. But if you want to discuss reliability, I've gone through quite a number of them. You can cull through forums and see the stat's. I'm sure some are okay, and for some applications, for some people.


Actually it's just the opposite. There are so many of these in circulation that that it would be impossible to go a day without an issue, let alone EOTD. The silent majority is usually 'silent', the minority are the ones with problems and voice them. You can google iphone issues too, should I believe that most iphones have issues as well. I myself have used around 12 of them for myself and clients and have had no issues. Sometimes it takes take a while to adjust things initially, but after that's is pretty solid. I did 'fry' two of them when I had a small fire, no pun intended. 



plantbrain said:


> *I never once stated that they will fail for any and everyone that buys them*. I also did not state anything about EOTD with them either.
> Failed solenoids, no#1 issue. Bad Check valves, terrible needle valves.
> Hence the term "fried". The regulator itself is fine near as I could tell, but with all the cheap junk they are adding to it, I toss them right away.


I don't know if you edited your comments, but I'm pretty sure you said something to that effect, but I don't like to misquote people so my apologies if you did not. 



plantbrain said:


> There are plenty of ways to screw up the CO2, if you have not done it yet, you are luckier than most, but........ wait.:wink:


I am truly blessed, by the co2 Gods, since I've had no issues in over 7 years using Milwaukee/Azoo regulators with their original needle valves. Also I would say around half of the issues stated on this forum are from user abuse. Most of this abuse is from people that purchase the Milwaukee as their first reg and damage it or many here, buy them used and already damaged. Again I'm not stating this is a high quality product in comparison to some other regs/setups, but the issues are grossly exaggerated.


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