# Is Eco-complete right for me?



## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

So im looking at building a 20G Long plated tank and i want to make a HC carpet (dwarf baby tears).
HC grows better on fine substrate so could i use eco-complete as a base and then cover it with sand? 
Thanks


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

IMO there is no point in capping Eco-complete.


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## dvscar (Oct 16, 2013)

Also the sand eventually will go to the bottom and eco-complete to the top.


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## Sluuuder (Feb 7, 2012)

HC will do fine in eco-complete. Main thing to worry about is the light and ferts honestly. substrate is the easiest part.


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

Eco is inert so you will need to put root tabs in it. I think you are better off using mineralized soil or MGOPS, then using eco to cap it. The eco will hold any nutrients/ferts you dose in the water column, as well as any that the soil releases over time. My two tanks have done very well with this simple combo.


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

Will the HC root in eco-complete fine?
And where can i get a mineralized soil?
Thanks


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## PeterN1986 (Jun 15, 2011)

bcbishop said:


> Will the HC root in eco-complete fine?
> And where can i get a mineralized soil?
> Thanks


Check my Mini-M journal in my sig - I dry started HC in Eco, so you can see how well it spread and rooted. In that tank, I also used MGOPS straight up (I sifted out any big clumps and chips of course). and then capped with eco. But again, I did a dry start so that gave the MGOPS some time to mineralize a little bit.

This is a great article on mineralized soil:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/library/52554-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

PeterN1986 said:


> Check my Mini-M journal in my sig - I dry started HC in Eco, so you can see how well it spread and rooted. In that tank, I also used MGOPS straight up (I sifted out any big clumps and chips of course). and then capped with eco. But again, I did a dry start so that gave the MGOPS some time to mineralize a little bit.
> 
> This is a great article on mineralized soil:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/library/52554-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html


Awesome. Thanks for the info!


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

PeterN1986 said:


> Check my Mini-M journal in my sig - I dry started HC in Eco, so you can see how well it spread and rooted. In that tank, I also used MGOPS straight up (I sifted out any big clumps and chips of course). and then capped with eco. But again, I did a dry start so that gave the MGOPS some time to mineralize a little bit.
> 
> This is a great article on mineralized soil:
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/library/52554-how-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html


I have found potassium sulphate instead of Muriate of potash and Dolopril instead of dolomite. Any suggestions on these additives?
Thanks


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## NanoDave (Feb 25, 2013)

I have tried HC on eco-complete and have failed twice miserably. If you have any fish that might even swim near the bottom (my ottos and cardinals were to blame) it becomes uprooter very easily as eco-complete is fairly uneven size substrate that I feel is actually rather large. Heres I write up I just did on another thread in this category. I personally won't try HC till I grab a few more bags of Activ-Flora and take out all my eco complete in the tank I want to use. I'm not saying you won't have success but I never have with eco-complete.

Heres the post:

Don't think this was mention but Activ-Flora, my favorite substrate hands down. Runs around $25-30 a 16lb bag. This is a very fine substrate thats about sand size. It's fairly heavy too so gravel vac-ing it is a breeze. Not to mention since it's dense, small size you can plant anything extremely easily and stay. I have this in a 10g Tetra Kit set-up with only 1 stock bulb no co2 and no dosing and plants grow better in there than my 29gal with 2 T5 HO's planted bulbs, 1 T8 10k, Eco-Complete, root tabs, dosing, and co2. I refuse to use anything else on any of my show planted tanks after my experience with this stuff. Here's some stuff I pulled off there site:


Elemental Analysis

Aluminum ..................10210
Magnesium .............. 2281
Barium ..........................124
Manganese .....................64 
Calcium..........................195
Sodium.........................223
Cobalt...............................6
Nickel............................12
Chromium........................13
Vanadium.......................15
Copper ............................17
Zinc...............................29
Iron.............................18500
Potassium .................. 2195
Units=mg/kg	

• Bio-activ Nutrients™ for faster, healthier plant growth.	
•	Contains LIVE® Heterotrophic bacteria for Instant Cycling® of your planted aquarium.	
•	100% Natural - does not contain artificial dyes or additives.	
•	Promotes healthy root system - Activ-Flora™ is extremely microporous	
•	Will not alter pH in your Planted Aquarium.	
•	Natural bi-segmentation™ process to promote optimal Oxygenation	
•	Naturally Spherical grains promotes maximum diffusion (aeration)	
•	Activ-Flora™ is rich in Iron, no need for laterite.	

http://www.activflora.com/

*Note* My 12 Long in my signature has this in it and I started that gloss carpet from 1 single pot of glosso for the entire tank 6 months ago. Mind you I only used co2 every other day or so and never did root tabs till two months ago. Not to mention I only have HE T5's rather than HO T5's so I highly recommend this stuff


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

NanoDave said:


> I have tried HC on eco-complete and have failed twice miserably. If you have any fish that might even swim near the bottom (my ottos and cardinals were to blame) it becomes uprooter very easily as eco-complete is fairly uneven size substrate that I feel is actually rather large. Heres I write up I just did on another thread in this category. I personally won't try HC till I grab a few more bags of Activ-Flora and take out all my eco complete in the tank I want to use. I'm not saying you won't have success but I never have with eco-complete.
> 
> Heres the post:
> 
> ...



Wow looks great. Only worry I have is the copper. I am wanting shrimp in this tank. Also I have some bottom feeders so will this be safe for them. Is the copper not that high to worry about for shrimp?
Thanks


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## NanoDave (Feb 25, 2013)

I wish I could answer that on a more scientific note but from personal experience I would say no. I have amano's and cherrys in there. A few of them are berried and seem happy as can be. Maybe some one else can help withthat question better. I'll ask in Inverts on here as I'm curious now as well. 

This tank was the nail in the coffin for no more eco-complete for small carpeting plants.

Tank started on 1-1-14









Tank as of 2 minutes ago









Only have 2 feeder gold fish in there to help cycle and in 2 days some of the plant is already coming up. Sorry I don't know the ID to this plant yet but it's very similar to HC


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## NanoDave (Feb 25, 2013)

Just found this:


Copper and shrimp: Myth vs Truth
Maybe if we get enough info here, this can be a sticky as it seems to be a big point a lot of people get misinformation on and the first thing everyone blames over shrimp deaths.


Q) Why did my shrimp die?

A) Usually with a bit of googling (or bing'ing or whatever) people who experience some dead shrimp come across a thread that says copper is bad for shrimp and usually snails. They thought they were doing good by researching and finding out shrimp like a more algae-veggie based food and bought some name brand algae wafers or algae based fish flakes only to their horror that upon further looking, it contain traces of copper and copper had to be blamed for the deaths.


Q) Do shrimp need copper?

A) The fact is shrimp need traces of copper in their blood like we do. No copper at all is not good for them as they can't survive without traces of it.


Q) Where does this myth come from?

A) When keeping aquarium shrimp first started, there wasn't a rush to have shrimp only tanks. People got the first few shrimp being imported and added them to their community tanks. A fish would get sick or get ich and they would treat with normal meds. A lot of meds, especially ich meds can contain lots of copper as it's effective at killing ich. After treatment, all their shrimp would be dead. Therefore the myth was started that copper kills shrimp.


Q) What if I have infected fish?

A) Your best bet is to remove your fish and treat, remove your shrimp and treat and then run carbon/cuprisorb or something else to remove the copper before adding the shrimp back or find a different medication to treat with. Myself, I treat ich infected shrimp by removing them, and putting them in a separate tank with aquarium salts and heat. I find this one of the best ways to get rid of ich and any new fish should be quarantined anyways, especially when coming from overstocked fish store tanks


Q) What if I just feed fresh veggies instead of fish store food, then there is no copper right?

A) False. Spinach, Kale, Spirulina, all contain trace amounts of copper in them.


Q) What about copper pipes? 

A) Most homes have copper pipes. Older home have older copper pipes that could leech a small amount of copper into their water. Many people use tap water and have used it for years without effect. Granted, the odd home may have a bad case of copper leeching but for the most part, it's not going to be a problem. I have no figures on average amounts of copper leeched by pipes, so if anyone has any info, I can add it here.




Any other info, please chime in. This is all based off reading online and putting stuff together. If anything is wrong, please post it here so I can edit it. Just trying to get a post together so people can find some info and not freak out over copper in the food they are feeding and instantly blame some algae wafers for a tank full of dead shrimp.


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## KribsDirect (Nov 15, 2013)

I'm dry starting some HC in eco complete/black diamond with osmocote underneath. I'll post a running journal of it when I get my light in and plant it. (Waiting on UPS). Its only a small area, not a huge carpet and it will be my first attempt. I think the DSM may be an advantage so to avoid the issues of uprooting.


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

I imagine most of the copper in that substrate is bound up in the various minerals and such. It's a pretty small amount, and it's likely locked up in the crystal lattice of whatever the substrate is made of (volcanic rocks? calcined clay? something else?). Most substrates are going to have small traces of copper and other elements in them, but they are effectively inert due to how the material is composed on a molecular/atomic level.

It's sorta like how clay is often a mix of aluminum, silicon, and oxygen, yet it's very different then jamming an aluminum bar in your tank.


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## NanoDave (Feb 25, 2013)

Interesting lochaber, thanks for the info. I was curious too. I would agree with KribsDirect in say DSM will def be a better method to do HC in Eco-Complete.


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

NanoDave said:


> Interesting lochaber, thanks for the info. I was curious too. I would agree with KribsDirect in say DSM will def be a better method to do HC in Eco-Complete.


Yes i am planning on doing a DSM with my mineralized topsoil/eco-complete.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Because I think it's worth mentioning but hasn't been yet, I've seen a whole lot of threads about growing HC, and the most success comes from higher light and pressurized CO2.

There are a number of stories about successfully growing HC with Excel, but they are dwarfed by the number of stories of failure without pressurized. As carpet plants go, HC is probably more often attempted than any other type, so there's a lot of info out there about it.


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## bcbishop (Dec 7, 2013)

kevmo911 said:


> Because I think it's worth mentioning but hasn't been yet, I've seen a whole lot of threads about growing HC, and the most success comes from higher light and pressurized CO2.
> 
> There are a number of stories about successfully growing HC with Excel, but they are dwarfed by the number of stories of failure without pressurized. As carpet plants go, HC is probably more often attempted than any other type, so there's a lot of info out there about it.


Ya i was worried about that... I dont know much about Co2 yet and am still on the edge of doing it or not.
That why i wanted to get my substrate perfected first to help out as much as possible.


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