# Balancing out kH and pH



## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi there,

I am having issues getting my parameters to stabalize. The tank has been running for two months now. Below you will find everything in the tank. I've been losing fish the past couple of days. I lost all of the guppies I had. I'm not sure what's going on.

Plants
-- Jungle Vals
-- Amazon Swords
-- Ludwigia Repens

Fish
-- 20 Cherry Red Shrimp
-- 03 Platy
-- 05 Cories
-- 08 Neon Tetra
-- 01 Bristlenose Pleco
-- 01 MTS

Yesterday, my parameters were as follows

pH -- 6.0
Ammonia -- .50
Nitrite -- .0
Nitrate -- 5.0
Temp -- 76

Now, before you all freak out, I recently had an outbreak of ICH, finally got rid of that. After that is when I lost the guppies.

I recently bought a kH test kit to measure that. I was dosing it like it said, but it never started out blue. I got to 4 drops and was able to actually tell it was yellow.

I use a DIY CO2 system which consists of Sodium Bicarbonate, Citric Acid, and of course water.

What does a guy do? I have never had so much issues. :frown2:

Here are some current views of my tank


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Yesterday, my parameters were as follows
> pH -- 6.0
> Ammonia -- .50
> Nitrite -- .0
> ...


Your ph is too low. What will balance it I can't say without a picture.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Yes. I know my pH is way too low. It's staying at this too. What kind of pictures would you like. I can get some up.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Yes. I know my pH is way too low. It's staying at this too. What kind of pictures would you like. I can get some up.


A full front view with the fish in it too.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> A full front view with the fish in it too.


I have added two aquarium photos to the first thread. Below I also added the test parameters.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

What is the substrate?


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Seachem Alkaline Buffer will increase you KH and your pH. Where I used to live my KH was 0.5. I used to add a little.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> What is the substrate?


Play Sand


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I think Gh Booster dosed .25 tsp daily for 1 week and then weekly plus Potassium Nitrate .5 tsp weekly would help. Also iron chelated would help ludwiga to maintain its red coller. At greenleafaquarium You can buy Gh for $5 and Potassium nitrate for $3, Iron chelated $8. Shipping around $7


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

What size tank is this and how many guppies did you have and loose? Any other fish that you've lost?

I wouldnt worry about your ph and kh so much right now while you're getting any discernible ammonia readings. My guess is the fish are dead due to ammonia poisoning. In the 2 months that the tank has been up and running have you been testing the water parameters? Can you confirm the tank ever completed the initial nitrogen cycle? With such a high ammonia reading and such a low nitrate reading my guess is the tank is still cycling.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

lksdrinker said:


> What size tank is this and how many guppies did you have and loose? Any other fish that you've lost?
> 
> I wouldnt worry about your ph and kh so much right now while you're getting any discernible ammonia readings. My guess is the fish are dead due to ammonia poisoning. In the 2 months that the tank has been up and running have you been testing the water parameters? Can you confirm the tank ever completed the initial nitrogen cycle? With such a high ammonia reading and such a low nitrate reading my guess is the tank is still cycling.


I initially had 10 guppies, 4 platies, 6 cories, 2 rubber lip pleco as well. Then I got Ich, so 1 platy, both plecos, and 6 guppies didn't make it through that. Now, I'm having this issue. 



Hilde said:


> I think Gh Booster dosed .25 tsp daily for 1 week and then weekly plus Potassium Nitrate .5 tsp weekly would help. Also iron chelated would help ludwiga to maintain its red coller. At greenleafaquarium You can buy Gh for $5 and Potassium nitrate for $3, Iron chelated $8. Shipping around $7


So, Dose a Gh booster alone for a week, then the Gh booster and potassium nitrate for a week as well?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Also, here all of the parameters that I have logged.



> 7/10/16
> --Nitrite -- 0
> --Nitrate -- 0
> --Ammonia -- .50
> ...


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## mtynan (Mar 22, 2016)

Looks like your tank isn't cycled and ammonia is your issue not your water hardness.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> 08/31/2015
> --Nitrite -- 0
> --Nitrate -- 5.0
> --Ammonia -- 2.0
> ...


Definitely not finished cycling. API stress coat will help the fish deal with the ammonia. Use Seachem Prime to bring the ammonia down. Use Marineland Bio-spira speed the cycling up.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> So, Dose a Gh booster alone for a week, then the Gh booster and potassium nitrate for a week as well?


No! Dose gh and potassium nitrate (KNO3) together. Wait a week or longer to dose KNO3 if nitrates above 20. Nitrates range 10 - 20 ppm


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Are your pH readings from a de-gassed water sample since you are using CO2.

As others have said seems like ammonia content is the problem.

Does a cycle stall without enough NH3, sure it will.
With that low of pH total ammonia reading are almost all NH4.
Does BB process NH4, I am unsure, someone will chime in.
I doubt it since there are complaints of cycling a low pH tank.

IMO raise KH by adding CaCO3 to about 2-3 dKH.
CaCO3 is not very soluble but in low pH it will dissolve.
Another alternative would be CaSO4(gypsum) food grade from a brew store, dissolves a little better.
Both of these will make a white cloud for about 6 hours to raise 2 dKH.
Reduce CO2 output to half of what you use now.
Raise pH to 7.2 to 7.5 and complete cycle first.
Once cycled you adjust total water hardness with WC's.

KH test kit for very low KH.
Use 10ml sample each drop is .5 dKH
Use 20ml sample each drop is .25 dKH
If 1 drop in 20ml doesn't show a light blue hue, don't bother wasting drops.

Do you know the GH of your tank water?
That can be raised with MgSO4.7H2O(epsom salt/magnesium sulfate)
This stuff dissolves quite readily without clouding.

I only mention these compounds since they are cheap and locally available in most places.
$3 to $5 per pound is typical.

Note of caution: when you raise the pH your water will become more toxic (NH4 back to NH3) to your existing livestock.
These large alkalinity changes are also not easy on livestock.

Regarding ICH: Could be possible that ammonia stressed fish are more susceptible to many illnesses.

If this water is from the tap it may need to be always mineralized depending on livestock choices.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Does a cycle stall without enough NH3, sure it will.


I disagree and Dr Tim disagrees. 

CYCLING FISHLESS by Dr. Tim
Remover filter floss
Bacteria shake and add. Should be cloudy
Add Ammonia. 1 drop per gallon
Wait 24hrs
Redo 2x more. Wait 24hrs after each time.
Have 0 for both 2 days do water change and add fish.
Takes 5 to 7 days.
Do not need to feed bacteria daily.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Sorry I am not familiar with Dr. Tim?

I should have reworded this but let it go anyway.
NH3 in any amount will still cycle only creating enough bacteria to handle the load presented.
When pH is increased the NH3 load is increased converting NH4 to NH3.

The real question relative to a low pH cycle is can BB handle NH4?
I do not know other than hearing claims of difficulty cycling a low pH tank.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Definitely not finished cycling. API stress coat will help the fish deal with the ammonia. Use Seachem Prime to bring the ammonia down. Use Marineland Bio-spira speed the cycling up.


I can get stress coat, however do I need to use prime? I am using Amquel plus... 



Maryland Guppy said:


> Are your pH readings from a de-gassed water sample since you are using CO2.


What do you mean exactly? 



Maryland Guppy said:


> Reduce CO2 output to half of what you use now.
> Raise pH to 7.2 to 7.5 and complete cycle first.
> Once cycled you adjust total water ? hardness with WC's.


I use 1bps right now, so should I slow it down to 1 every two seconds then? 



Maryland Guppy said:


> KH test kit for very low KH.
> Use 10ml sample each drop is .5 dKH
> Use 20ml sample each drop is .25 dKH
> If 1 drop in 20ml doesn't show a light blue hue, don't bother wasting drops.


I don't have a 10ml. Only a 5



Maryland Guppy said:


> Do you know the GH of your tank water?
> That can be raised with MgSO4.7H2O(epsom salt/magnesium sulfate)
> This stuff dissolves quite readily without clouding.


I don't know the GH. I don't have a test kit for that one.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I can get stress coat, however do I need to use prime? I am using Amquel plus.


Amquell will suffice. You just end up using more of it than if you were using Prime.


mcdanielnc89 said:


> Are your pH readings from a de-gassed water sample since you are using CO2.
> What do you mean exactly?


Degassing" a Water Sample


mcdanielnc89 said:


> I don't know the GH. I don't have a test kit for that one.


A pet store can test the general hardness for you.

I wonder if you have low ph because your alkalinity is low and you are injecting Co2. Can you stop injecting Co2 to test this theory? 

Marineland Bio-spira is sold at Petsmart.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Amquell will suffice. You just end up using more of it than if you were using Prime.


I have a newbie question that I should know, but. When dosing with this, how often am I supposed to be dosing with it and would I dose it everytime for the full 29 gallons of water.. 

Sorry, just at my witz end and losing my mind now


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I wonder if you have low ph because your alkalinity is low and you are injecting Co2. Can you stop injecting Co2 to test this theory?
> 
> Marineland Bio-spira is sold at Petsmart.


I will test this I will turn it off through the weekend and get back to you on what it does to the pH


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Typical CO2 measurements
Test water in tank for pH with your injected CO2.
Put an air stone in a sample for say 30 minutes and test.
A 1.0 drop in pH is equal to about 30ppm of CO2.
(Degassed sample pH - tank CO2 sample pH)*30 = ppm of CO2.
Just wondering what your pH is without CO2 injection.

Reducing your CO2 content will raise your pH some.
1 BPS depends on the size of orifice gas is passed through.

Dump 2 - 5ml samples in a glass or any other container you can see through.
Just use 5ml tube as a measuring device.
Shot glass works great, omit the whiskey though.

My LFS charges $1 for any test these days, no weekend testing in their store.
I get it though, the employee is not waiting on customers.
Testing takes time.
They are swamped on the weekend.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I will test this I will turn it off through the weekend and get back to you on what it does to the pH


The more I think about this the more it worries me that the ph could increase fast and kill the fish. So I think it best to just decrease the co2 to 1bps.

Here is something I read - GH and KH can be as low as 1-degree, but watch it! These bacteria may use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. Thus might be best to get a GH/KH test kit. I found they are the cheapest on Ebay. Perhaps this explains why your tank is not completely cycled.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I have a newbie question that I should know, but. When dosing with this, how often am I supposed to be dosing with it and would I dose it everytime for the full 29 gallons of water..
> 
> Sorry, just at my witz end and losing my mind now


This is a unique situation, for the tank should have been cycled by now. That is a good question. For you probably have already dosed the aquarium with the product. The more I think of it you need some ammonia for the bacteria (1 small bag of Marineland Bio-spira) so Kordon would be an overkill. Also API stress coat dosed 10ml per week until cycle complete will probably be enough to help the fish.


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

lksdrinker said:


> What size tank is this and how many guppies did you have and loose? Any other fish that you've lost?
> 
> I wouldnt worry about your ph and kh so much right now while you're getting any discernible ammonia readings. My guess is the fish are dead due to ammonia poisoning. In the 2 months that the tank has been up and running have you been testing the water parameters? Can you confirm the tank ever completed the initial nitrogen cycle? With such a high ammonia reading and such a low nitrate reading my guess is the tank is still cycling.


This. 

2ppm of ammonia is deadly high. This needs to be the focus first. Do a large water change 70% right away and then do some partial daily water changes. Is that a hob filter? How much media is in your filter? If it is, lose the inserts and shove a bunch of ceramic media in there instead.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> My LFS charges $1 for any test these days, no weekend testing in their store.


I get it done free at Petsmart or Petco or Pet Supermarket. Thus since my test kit has expired I just let them test my water. I just got Gh/ Kh test kit for I am going to be injecting Co2 and the Kh needs to be at a good level before doing it.

Bump:


Willcooper said:


> This.
> 2ppm of ammonia is deadly high. This needs to be the focus first. Do a large water change 70% right away and then do some partial daily water changes. Is that a hob filter? How much media is in your filter? If it is, lose the inserts and shove a bunch of ceramic media in there instead.


I think a 50% water change would be safer. Perhaps 50% water change + 10ml of Kordon + 10ml API Stress + 1 small bag of Marineland Bio-spira start would correct the problem. Daily water changes uncertain if will correct the problem for it increases the time of a cycle.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

The guppies will have fallen apart due to low pH and likely very soft water, so that won't help. I doubt the platies will fare much better, since most livebearers need hard water. At low pH their bones can decalcify from the effort of producing fry.

Your filter cycle also can't occur if your pH is that low. As you drop below 6.5 you get more and more ammonia coverted to ammonium, which is less toxic but which can't be consumed by bacteria. Every time you swing around this you're stressing your fish, for the reasons Maryland discussed.

I'd either keep your pH below 6.5 at all times and stick with the softwater fish (ie neons likely won't care at pH5), or keep your pH at at least 6.5 at all times. On the low end you're asking for trouble with DIY Co2 because you can't guarantee the output will be consistent, and if you swing from consistently 6 (or less) to 7 you'll likely kill everything off in short order.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Hilde said:


> Daily water changes uncertain if will correct the problem for it increases the time of a cycle.


This is not necessarily true. If you're doing a fishless cycle you're dosing ammonia. Do a water change, and dose enough ammonia to keep the cycle alive. 

When you chose to opt out of a fishless cycle you sort of shoot yourself in the foot. Your livestock wants 0 ammonia which is easily done via a large water change. However, your beneficial bacteria (or lack thereof) requires that same ammonia thats killing your fish. You're trying to drive down the highway at 70 mph with your foot on the gas and brake at the same time.

I'm also going to opine that the ich outbreak you saw did not kill any of your fish. Once again, it was likely the ammonia. What did you do to combat the ich outbreak?

Did you ever answer what size tank this is?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Willcooper said:


> This.
> 
> 2ppm of ammonia is deadly high. This needs to be the focus first. Do a large water change 70% right away and then do some partial daily water changes. Is that a hob filter? How much media is in your filter? If it is, lose the inserts and shove a bunch of ceramic media in there instead.


I will do a 50% water change today, add declorinator for the tap water.

As far as filter media goes, I'm just using the carbon filter that came with the marineland filter.



AdamTill said:


> The guppies will have fallen apart due to low pH and likely very soft water, so that won't help. I doubt the platies will fare much better, since most livebearers need hard water. At low pH their bones can decalcify from the effort of producing fry.
> 
> Your filter cycle also can't occur if your pH is that low. As you drop below 6.5 you get more and more ammonia coverted to ammonium, which is less toxic but which can't be consumed by bacteria. Every time you swing around this you're stressing your fish, for the reasons Maryland discussed.
> 
> I'd either keep your pH below 6.5 at all times and stick with the softwater fish (ie neons likely won't care at pH5), or keep your pH at at least 6.5 at all times. On the low end you're asking for trouble with DIY Co2 because you can't guarantee the output will be consistent, and if you swing from consistently 6 (or less) to 7 you'll likely kill everything off in short order.


This would explain why I lost the guppies then. The pH issue. I've been trying to get it stabalized to be at/above 7. It's not working.



lksdrinker said:


> This is not necessarily true. If you're doing a fishless cycle you're dosing ammonia. Do a water change, and dose enough ammonia to keep the cycle alive.
> 
> 
> I'm also going to opine that the ich outbreak you saw did not kill any of your fish. Once again, it was likely the ammonia. What did you do to combat the ich outbreak?
> ...


I will dose Amquel after I do the waterchange today. Question though, Should I dose it for the FULL amount of the 20 gallons of water, or just the amount for the waterchange?

It's a 20 gallon aquarium.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Have you tested your tap water yet?
Maybe test tap and post what you find.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> This would explain why I lost the guppies then. The pH issue. I've been trying to get it stabalized to be at/above 7. It's not working.


Probably hardness/mineral content too. Most liverbearers need lots of water mineral content, and your setup sounds like it's light on that front.

It can be hard to get a "stable" pH with DIY CO2 given that the colony isn't consistently putting out the same levels. That said you really sound like you need more KH/buffer in there at the moment.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Have you by change been overfeeding your fish?

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> I will do a 50% water change today, add declorinator for the tap water. I will dose Amquel after I do the waterchange today. Question though, Should I dose it for the FULL amount of the 20 gallons of water, or just the amount for the waterchange?
> 
> It's a 20 gallon aquarium.


Dose for a 20g for you have too much ammonia in the tank. Don't forget to get the small bag of marineland Bio-spira. You need the whole bag in the tank. Then test the nitrites and ammonia. If after 1 week nitrites or ammonia go up add 10ml of the Bio-spira. That is what I am doing with my new tank.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Have you tested your tap water yet?
> Maybe test tap and post what you find.


Here are my tap water parameters. Please not that KH took three drops to change from blue to yellow. Where currently, one drop doesn't even turn the water blue from my aquarium.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Have you by change been overfeeding your fish?


Not that I am aware of. I'm pretty much feeding what they eat within about a two minute period. I can't say that 100% certainly that I haven't though if you know what I mean.

Bump: 
Dose for a 20g for you have too much ammonia in the tank. Don't forget to get the small bag of marineland Bio-spira. You need the whole bag in the tank. Then test the nitrites and ammonia. If after 1 week nitrites or ammonia go up add 10ml of the Bio-spira. That is what I am doing with my new tank.[/QUOTE]

Alright, I'll treat it for the full 20g.

So that I have this right, use a full bag at first, then after a week test the parameters, if not stable, just att 10ml of bio-spira? Do I have that correct?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Your tank water looks like the tests you took on the tap.
The pictures are about identical except for pH reading.
A cycled tank could handle a little ammonia from the tap during a WC.
Accumulating NO3 would be your issue depending on WC schedule.

I looked over this whole thread again.

Substrate being sand should not reduce the hardness.
It is all sand? Not just a sand cap correct?
The reddish look on one of your pics made me think SafeTSorb but not the case. 
CO2 will drop the pH but not remove the KH from your water.
Your tap is 3 dKH, that would be stable if you can keep it in the tank.

Is there anything in the tank that could suck up carbonates?
Doesn't look like it from the tank pics.
In the pics there are some some chunks of rock looks broken?

DIY CO2 got me thinking.
Any chance that citric acid is making it's way to the tank?

If you turn off CO2 I wonder how much pH would rise with very low KH.

I am almost at a loss if the citric acid isn't the culprit.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Your tank water looks like the tests you took on the tap.
> The pictures are about identical except for pH reading.
> A cycled tank could handle a little ammonia from the tap during a WC.
> Accumulating NO3 would be your issue depending on WC schedule.
> ...


The tank is full of sand. nothing else. The rock in there are aquarium safe, or so that's how they were advertised. Bought them from petsmart. 

As far as the Citric acid getting to the tank, that shouldn't be possible. I'm using this system --> http://www.ebay.com/itm/400529146384?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT DIY CO2 Generator System Kit Planted Marine Aquarium Check Valve D501 Blue | eBay[/url]

Which has a y shaped tubing that should be preventing this. 

I also tested pH about 30 minutes of turning bubbles on with co2 off(been off since last night) and pH is the same. So I took a smaller sample of water in a red solo cup, put an air stone in it, let it run for an hour, and the pH stayed the same.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

One last thought.
1 gallon of tap in a drywall bucket and move CO2 diffuser to it.
Don't disturb the assembly just move the hose over to the bucket.
Test the KH before and after a fixed period of time.

Unsure where else to go with this.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Alright, I'll treat it for the full 20g.
> 
> So that I have this right, use a full bag at first, then after a week test the parameters, if not stable, just att 10ml of bio-spira? Do I have that correct?


Please keep in mind that when dealing with nature nothing is written in stone. Thus I tend to not like to be specific as to what to dose but you seem to need to know a specific amount. Here are my suggestions:
Water change 50 %
Kordon Ammon Water 10ml 
Stress API 5ml
Marineland Bio-spira 1 bag 10ml as needed
If you fill the tank with a hose connect to a faucet put a little of the Kordon in as you fill.

Ferts
Magnesium sulfate (Epsom salt) .5 tsp weekly
Potassium nitrate (Spectricide stump remover at Home Depot) .5 tsp weekly
Sodium Bicarb (Baking soda) .5 tsp weekly


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The meaning of the term "pH buffer" is that the pH will not change for small additions of a weak acid, like citric acid. The carbonates (bicarbonates) and the carbonic acid (from the small portion of dissolved CO2 in water)form a pH buffer. That buffer holds the pH of the water constant when small amounts of citric acid get into the water. However, the pH can temporarily drop a bit with that acid being added, but it goes back to what it was. So, I don't believe any possible "leak" of citric acid into the water will change the pH.

Are you shutting off the CO2 when the lights are off? If so is the pH of the water higher before the lights come back on?


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## Willcooper (May 31, 2015)

I find that the bio wheel that comes with that filter isn't sufficient to hold the amount of bb that you need. I would remove the insert carbon/mesh and put a piece of mesh covering the bottom of the filter and then fill it to the top with a bio media such as ceramic rings. You can still successfully get your cycled finished at lower ammonia levels such as .25/.5 ppm. 2 is just high.


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## Django (Jun 13, 2012)

I was running my Fluval U2(??) with nothing in it. I had enough plants to take care of any ammonia. I encourage you to add a lot of fast-growing plants like Hygros and make sure you have enough light to power them.

I would suggest trying to work with the pH you have. Otherwise, try to increase the pH. Use fertilizers for the plants. IMO, this is absolutely a necessity. Use 1/4 Estimated Index (EI) - you can buy it dry and mix it up according to the recipe posted here.

Take your time observing the results. I really hope you get some good ones.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> The meaning of the term "pH buffer" is that the pH will not change for small additions of a weak acid, like citric acid. The carbonates (bicarbonates) and the carbonic acid (from the small portion of dissolved CO2 in water)form a pH buffer. That buffer holds the pH of the water constant when small amounts of citric acid get into the water. However, the pH can temporarily drop a bit with that acid being added, but it goes back to what it was. So, I don't believe any possible "leak" of citric acid into the water will change the pH.
> 
> Are you shutting off the CO2 when the lights are off? If so is the pH of the water higher before the lights come back on?


The CO2 has been off for two days now. No change in pH at all. 



Django said:


> I was running my Fluval U2(??) with nothing in it. I had enough plants to take care of any ammonia. I encourage you to add a lot of fast-growing plants like Hygros and make sure you have enough light to power them.
> 
> I would suggest trying to work with the pH you have. Otherwise, try to increase the pH. Use fertilizers for the plants. IMO, this is absolutely a necessity. Use 1/4 Estimated Index (EI) - you can buy it dry and mix it up according to the recipe posted here.
> 
> Take your time observing the results. I really hope you get some good ones.


I've never need to use ferts before, so this is new to me. I see a lot of recommendations here so i appreciate it. I am going to look into it after the holiday.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> The CO2 has been off for two days now. No change in pH at all.


I wonder if it has affected the KH which is important to maintain a balance.

I have my water tested at a pet store but bought a Gh/Kh test kit. Got it on Ebay. For injecting Co2 can cause an imbalance.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> I've never need to use ferts before, so this is new to me.


That is why I recommend to newbies to planted tank to get mosses, anubias and ferns. You have probably gotten bit by plant bug, as I have, so there is no going back.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Seems like old tank syndrome sucking up the KH but this would not happen on a 2 month tank.

Still am puzzled as to what is dropping the pH in your tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Seems like old tank syndrome sucking up the KH but this would not happen on a 2 month tank.
> 
> Still am puzzled as to what is dropping the pH in your tank.


I read - GH and KH can be as low as 1-degree, but watch it! These bacteria may use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. Could this had happened?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Alright everyone. I am going to give an update now. My CO2 has been off for 5 days now. I did another test and here are the results. 

NITRITE = 0
NITRATE = 5.0
AMMONIA = 2.0
pH = 6.0
TEMP = 76
kH = 3 drops (again, was never initially blue)


Again, no CO2 running. Using Amquel + and stability.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> I wonder if it has affected the KH which is important to maintain a balance.
> 
> I have my water tested at a pet store but bought a Gh/Kh test kit. Got it on Ebay. For injecting Co2 can cause an imbalance.
> 
> ...


At this point would co2 be a problem now that it's been off for a week? I can still take some water to make sure I'm testing correctly (Im not sure what i woudl be doing wrong)





Hilde said:


> I read - GH and KH can be as low as 1-degree, but watch it! These bacteria may use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. Could this had happened?


Maybe?



Maryland Guppy said:


> Seems like old tank syndrome sucking up the KH but this would not happen on a 2 month tank.
> 
> Still am puzzled as to what is dropping the pH in your tank.


I really wish I knew what's dropping the pH because the pH of my tap is not 6.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Bump:
> That is why I recommend to newbies to planted tank to get mosses, anubias and ferns. You have probably gotten bit by plant bug, as I have, so there is no going back.


Let me correct myself. I'm not a newbie to plants per se. I've had a planted aquarium before about 4 years ago. I have never had the problems I have had now.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

This is very strange case. Seems logically that you do not have enough bacteria for the output of ammonia. Possibly the city is dosing something different in the water. Have you gotten your city's quality test.

Did you get the Marineland Bio?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> This is very strange case. Seems logically that you do not have enough bacteria for the output of ammonia. Possibly the city is dosing something different in the water. Have you gotten your city's quality test.
> 
> Did you get the Marineland Bio?


I have not gotten the water quality test. I am going to get the Marineland Bio today and starting that. It's been a busy holiday weekend.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I have also found this from my water services. https://www.kcwaterservices.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016_Water_Quality_Report.pdf


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I've never need to use ferts before, so this is new to me.
> I see a lot of recommendations here so i appreciate it.
> I am going to look into it after the holiday.


This is really not a fertilizer issue as in regarding plant life.
This is more of a water quality vs. beneficial bacteria issue.
76F is a fine temp to cycle with, pH of 6.0 is not.
You will need to raise the pH in some way to complete a proper cycle.
This will involve WC's to reduce ammonia.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Wow! Look at the pH listed in that water report! 9.9 pH is very hard water, normally. But, I saw nothing in the report that suggested a high KH. The alkalinity, which is essentially the KH, is low. The water company seems to be doctoring the water to raise the pH much higher than we usually see. If this operates as we are used to, you could let a sample of the water sit for a day, in the open air, and the pH would drop significantly.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Typical CO2 measurements
> Test water in tank for pH with your injected CO2.
> Put an air stone in a sample for say 30 minutes and test.
> A 1.0 drop in pH is equal to about 30ppm of CO2.
> ...


As you seen from my last tests, the pH wasn't affected by the co2 injections apparently because the pH did not change after a week with it off. :crying:



Hilde said:


> Please keep in mind that when dealing with nature nothing is written in stone. Thus I tend to not like to be specific as to what to dose but you seem to need to know a specific amount. Here are my suggestions:
> Water change 50 %
> Kordon Ammon Water 10ml
> Stress API 5ml
> ...


I'm going to try this approach as well. for the ferts, do i just put them in the tank water?



Maryland Guppy said:


> This is really not a fertilizer issue as in regarding plant life.
> This is more of a water quality vs. beneficial bacteria issue.
> 76F is a fine temp to cycle with, pH of 6.0 is not.
> You will need to raise the pH in some way to complete a proper cycle.
> This will involve WC's to reduce ammonia.


I did a water change last night. a 50% water change. You seen the pH of my tap water, I will test this when I get home today to see what it does.



Hoppy said:


> Wow! Look at the pH listed in that water report! 9.9 pH is very hard water, normally. But, I saw nothing in the report that suggested a high KH. The alkalinity, which is essentially the KH, is low. The water company seems to be doctoring the water to raise the pH much higher than we usually see. If this operates as we are used to, you could let a sample of the water sit for a day, in the open air, and the pH would drop significantly.


So you're saying traditionally, my pH is low and the water company is artificially raising it?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Update:

Parameters for 09/07/2016

pH: 6.0 -- It's much more yellow today, I think improving. (did a 50% water change yesterday, added amquel plus, and stability.)
Ammonia -- .25
Nitrite -- 0
Nitrate -- 5.0
kH -- 3 drops (im not certain this is right, it never starts blue initially so i drop until i see it yellow)
Temp -- 76

As you can see my Ammonia and Nitrates changes big time from yesterday's readings. I think i might still go to petsmart and let them check too. 

Also, I took the rocks out of the tank to see if that's doing anything. If not, the next thing I'll take out is the airstone wall. it has stones holding it down that came with it, but we'll see. I have no other options to think of. My CO2 system is still off.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Have you tried putting a pinch of that sodium bicarb in a cup with some water, testing it, and making sure the KH test kit isn't defective?

I'm sure this will make people on here scream, but I used to put a little baking soda (sodium bicarb) in my tank to increase the KH up to 2-4 and stabilize my pH. It only took a tiny amount, and I never lost a fish. I kept anything I wanted. I switched to Seachem Alk Buffer at some point because it was more quantifiable for me.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So you're saying traditionally, my pH is low and the water company is artificially raising it?


Almost all, if not all water companies artificially raise the pH of their water, to stop erosion of copper and lead - copper and lead pipes, and lead based solder used to assemble the plumbing. Generally whatever they add does not permanently raise the pH.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> This is very strange case. Seems logically that you do not have enough bacteria for the output of ammonia. Possibly the city is dosing something different in the water. Have you gotten your city's quality test.
> 
> Did you get the Marineland Bio?


I bought this tonight. I think I will use it, but first.... I took a water sample to petsmart... Below are the results...



Ben Belton said:


> Have you tried putting a pinch of that sodium bicarb in a cup with some water, testing it, and making sure the KH test kit isn't defective?
> 
> I'm sure this will make people on here scream, but I used to put a little baking soda (sodium bicarb) in my tank to increase the KH up to 2-4 and stabilize my pH. It only took a tiny amount, and I never lost a fish. I kept anything I wanted. I switched to Seachem Alk Buffer at some point because it was more quantifiable for me.


I have not. However, the kH test kit works in the betta aquarium. I thought the same thing that it was defective, but it works in everything but my tank.



Hoppy said:


> Almost all, if not all water companies artificially raise the pH of their water, to stop erosion of copper and lead - copper and lead pipes, and lead based solder used to assemble the plumbing. Generally whatever they add does not permanently raise the pH.


'

I see. 


So, I bought aquarium bacteria, and seachem ph booster... they also did a test on my water that i took in. below are the results of their tests.

Ammonia is .25
Nitrate is 0
Nitrite is 0
Total Hardness is 75
Total Chlorine is 0
Total Alkalinity is 0
pH is 6.2


So, pH is still low, but other than that everything looks fine.... I'm so stumped as to why mine are reading weird. And the tests done on the betta tank read the same at petsmart and here at home. the difference being im using the liquid test kit, petsmart using the strips. 

Do I go ahead and use the marineland backteria and the pH booster? I'm so stumped...


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Do I go ahead and use the marineland backteria and the pH booster? I'm so stumped...


Use pH booster first.
Bacteria in a bottle after your pH is @ least 7.0-7.4


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Use pH booster first.
> Bacteria in a bottle after your pH is @ least 7.0-7.4


Alright. I will use the pH booster first.  Then start using the bacteria! I really do very much appreciate all of the help you all are giving me.

This is all so confusing because my quarantine tank is just fine when it comes to pH ... EDIT: until now. it's now reading at a 6.0. The culprit might just be those rocks. I've removed them so we shall see. the beta tank is reading above a 7.0 pH so.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

SO, I dosed with the pH booster yesterday evening, and nothing has changed. I'm about to pull my hair out.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

My patience are at eruption level.

Today, My parameters read as such. Keep in mind CO2 is still off.

pH: 6
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 5.0
kH: 3 drops (still not turning blue initially)
Temp: 76

Today I dosed 20 gallons of water with amquel plus, and stablity. Also used the Seachem neutral regulator again today.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> kH: 3 drops (still not turning blue initially)
> 
> Also used the Seachem neutral regulator again today.


KH is really not 3 it is basically 0.
I don't think Seachem neutral regulator is capable of raising KH levels.
I'd check their website and see. Possible buffering by phosphates for neutral.

What led you to neutral regulator?

2 grams of CaCO3 in 20 gallons should be about 2dKH.
Is it possible to find calcium carbonate in your area.
I would suggest baking soda, some frown on the sodium content though


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> KH is really not 3 it is basically 0.
> I don't think Seachem neutral regulator is capable of raising KH levels.
> I'd check their website and see. Possible buffering by phosphates for neutral.
> 
> What led you to neutral regulator?


I went to petsmart, gave them the rundown on what all was happening. all they had was the neutral regulator and they said this should raise the pH. However, that doesn't seem to be the case.

Bump: I'm afraid the bacteria i bought will not work if my ph isn't up. so i haven't used that yet.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Edit on my last post if you missed it.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> KH is really not 3 it is basically 0.
> 2 grams of CaCO3 in 20 gallons should be about 2dKH.
> Is it possible to find calcium carbonate in your area.
> I would suggest baking soda, some frown on the sodium content though


I can go up to the vitamin shoppe and get some calcium carbonate tomorrow after work and dose it with 2 grams. and go from there.

Bump:

Bump: i didn't thinkg calcium carbonate dissolves in water though..


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

With your low pH it will dissolve.
It will be very cloudy for about 4-6 hours.
Test when clear should get about 2 drops on KH.

Did a check on this.
To get 2.2dKH you really need about 3 grams.
Your water will be cloudy for a bit longer if you do 3g
In 20 gallons only about 1 gram is soluble.
Either pH level will help it dissolve or it will settle and dissolve as it can.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I will do this and see what happens


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So, I just got home, did water changes in both my 20 gallon and 5.5 gallon. Both pH's read 6.0. So, i did a 50% water change in both tanks, retested pH, and the pH changed in my 5.5 gallon, but NOT my 20 gallon. Here are some more pictures to see what you all think if anything else could be the issue. I even turned the bubble wall on to see if it helped any, but nope. 

I suppose i'll be going to get some of that CoCo3


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I use Calcium carbonate powder (CoCo3) sold as lime to raise my Kh. I think aprox tsp .5 daily until the Kh is level will be safe. Then put some Dolomite gravel (approx 2oz) in a filter bag in your filter. It dissolves slowly thus should maintain a stable Kh.

You don't need a lot thus it should be cheap on Ebay.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I did a test today.. I pretty much dang near did a 100% waterchange.. Guess what, the pH was normal.. HOWEVER, guess what. After 4 hours, the pH is back down to almost a 6.0... Please tell me this makes no sense because I'm losing my mind now. I'm about to just give up now. I have never had so much issues.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Also, running three different solo cups. one with co2, one with airline tubing blowing air into it, and the other just a cup of tap water. see if anyting happens to that.
gonna give it 30-45 minutes


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I did a test today.. I pretty much dang near did a 100% waterchange.. Guess what, the pH was normal.. HOWEVER, guess what. After 4 hours, the pH is back down to almost a 6.0... Please tell me this makes no sense because I'm losing my mind now. I'm about to just give up now. I have never had so much issues.


Have you used that substrate in the past?

I have had a similar experience since I started using Coir (coconut) topped with River sand. My tap ph is 8.8. After a month of letting a tank sit the ph is 6.8. I dosed with Lime last week the tank I want to inject Co2. Shall have water tested tomorrow.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Alright guys... I performed a little experiment... I did the almost 100% water change today, to get pH up. Within a few hours, pH was right back down. This made no sense to me what so ever. SO... I took out the CO2(remember this was off in the tank anyway, perhaps too much pressure so it wasn't truly off). ANNNYYYYWAYYYY, I set out three red solo cups(please, spare me the song), one was jsut regular tab water, the second one was tap water with aeration in it, and the third was tap water with CO2 being injected into it. I then tested the pH and KH, then I waited 30 minutes, and tested the pH and kH again. See my results below...

BEFORE:
Cup with only tap water - PH = 7.6; High Range = 8.8 KH = 3dKH
Cup with tap water and aeration - PH = 7.6; KH = 3dKH
Cup with tap water and co2 injection - pH 7.6; KH = 3dKH


AFTER:
Cup with only tap water - PH = 7.6; High Range = 8.8; KH = 3dKH
Cup with tap water and aeration - PH = 6.8; KH = 3dKH
Cup with tap water and co2 injection - pH 6.0; KH = Never changed to blue so 0

Currently my pH in my tank is sitting at a 6.4 and i have taken the co2 out....

Bump:


Hilde said:


> Have you used that substrate in the past?
> 
> I have had a similar experience since I started using Coir (coconut) topped with River sand. My tap ph is 8.8. After a month of letting a tank sit the ph is 6.8. I dosed with Lime last week. Shall have water tested tomorrow.


Yes, i've used this previously and using it in my quarantine tank with no issues.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Alright guys... I performed a little experiment... I
> BEFORE:
> Cup with only tap water - PH = 7.6; High Range = 8.8 KH = 3dKH
> Cup with tap water and aeration - PH = 7.6; KH = 3dKH
> ...


Very interesting. I wonder if this is because the city is dosing something that makes the Kh go down when injecting Co2. Or could the water be very soft and thus the Kh decreases when Co2 is injected? Seems you need to get the Kh up to 9 before injecting Co2. Fast changes can affect the fish so take it slow.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> I can go up to the vitamin shoppe and get some calcium carbonate tomorrow after work and dose it with 2 grams. and go from there.


I don't see any calcium carbonate on their website. I see dolomite powder though. That raises the kh up too. Some have been using it in powder form.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Very interesting. Seems logically that the city is dosing something that makes the Kh go down when injecting Co2. Seems you need to get the Kh up to 9 before injecting Co2. Fast changes can affect the fish so take it slow.
> 
> Bump:
> I don't see any calcium carbonate on their website. I see dolomite powder though. That raises the kh up too. Some have been using it in powder form.


So... My next question then is, say I get my. Kh up to 9, I start injecting Co2, everything is stabilized... Now, I start doing weekly water changes, won't I end up with the same problem I'm currently having? Also, where did you come up with the number 9


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

Nine is divine. Two teaspoons Sodium Bicarbonate stat! Damn the sodium!

Actually, My Alkalinity has been dropping too. I also have a 20 gallon aquarium. I put in 1/4 teaspoon Potassium Bicarbonate last Thursday when it got down to 4 dKH. Today, one week later, Alkalinity was at 3 dKH so I put in 1/2 teaspoon of Potassium Bicarbonate. I think this is happening because of the CO2 injection and bacterial consumption of carbonates. I'm really not sure what's going on.

Also, I think nine dKH is a high target. It's just that your situation is so weird and your pH is so low. You could try 7 dKH but I think your pH would still be low and the KH would still go down to 5 or 4 dKH. Therefore, why not prop the KH up to nine? It will drop down to 7 dKH anyway. 3 dKH is too low in my humble unqualified opinion.

Oh, and do take it slow though. My advice about using 2 teaspoons Sodium Bicarbonate in one dose is reckless. One teaspoon at a time would be better. Or 1 1/2 teaspoons of Potassium Bicarbonate dosed 1/2 teaspoon at a time.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Maybe the substrate is ruled out now since the Solo cup test.

Do you by chance have a GH test kit? Did you purchase the GH & KH together?

Do you know the GH of the water?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Maybe the substrate is ruled out now since the Solo cup test.
> 
> Do you by chance have a GH test kit? Did you purchase the GH & KH together?
> 
> Do you know the GH of the water?


If I remember correctly petsmart tested the gh. I do not have a gh test kit. I guess I'll be purchasing one. Lol 

But petsmart said the total hardness was 0

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So should I used baking soda Vs CaCo3. 

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have used baking soda, but it does contain sodium.
Some recommend against it, some say it is fine.
It is not my first go to item, knowing you will do some water changes in the future what the heck.

The reason I asked about GH is when CO2 is injected into water carbonic acid is formed.
Somewhere I have thought to have read that water lacking in magnesium in the presence of carbonic acid can precipitate CO3.
Thus dropping pH, tried to find the paper this morning, no luck yet.

Maybe a chemist guru is in the house?

5 grams of NaHCO3 in 20 gallons should provide 2.2dKH.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I have used baking soda, but it does contain sodium.
> Some recommend against it, some say it is fine.
> It is not my first go to item, knowing you will do some water changes in the future what the heck.
> 
> ...


I feel like I'm in science class again! lol. I definitely appreciate you all. Every one of you for helping me out with this issue. If it weren't for you all I would not be isolating the issue well at all. 

I think I'm going to drop 5 grams of NaHCO3 into the tank this afternoon to see what happens. (Although, I use Sodium Bicarbonate as part of my DIY CO2 system, so that confuses me a little bit as to why that wouldn't help stabalize anything. Maybe someone has an opinion on that one).

I do believe that I have isolated the issue to the CO2 injection causing the pH to drop. Why? I don't know, but the tests that I have been performing since last night are indicating such. 

I left the cups full of water overnight with Co2 running in one, aeration in the other, and just regular tab in the third. Here are the results.

== PH TESTS 12 hours later ==
==============================
==============================
== Tap Water = 7.2 ==
== Tap Water High pH = 7.4 ==
==  ==
== Tap Water w/ Aeration = 7.2 - 7.6 ==
== Tap Water w/ Aeration High pH = 7.4 ==
== ==
== Tap Water w/ CO2 = 6.0 ==
== Tap Water w/ CO2 High pH = No reading ==
==============================
==============================

My conclusion is the CO2 injection is dropping the pH of the tank. Somehow I need to get my kH up enough where I can be able to use co2. Also I have been leaving the co2 on 24/7. Perhaps may I also need to just have it on for 8 hours a day (though, I'm not sure how to control that other than manually, and another thing that confuses me is the CO2 has been off, but in the tank still so maybe the system I have doesn't truly shut off the co2)


ALSO!!! My ph in my tank is still at a 6.4 after i removed the co2 system out of the tank so it didn't drop anymore... yayyy


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

It's all an experiment. We learn new things all the time.
Sometimes old things are found not to be true and we eat our words.

Sodium(Na) in excess can harm plants eventually, keep this in mind.
If baking soda solves the issue, WC and move to a different compound.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> It's all an experiment. We learn new things all the time.
> Sometimes old things are found not to be true and we eat our words.
> 
> Sodium(Na) in excess can harm plants eventually, keep this in mind.
> If baking soda solves the issue, WC and move to a different compound.


Are you referring to me using citric acid? I used to use yeast sugar and water 

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Are you referring to me using citric acid?


Not at all. The whole planted tank experience in general.
With me it is a science/chemistry experiment for sure.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Not at all. The whole planted tank experience in general.
> With me it is a science/chemistry experiment for sure.


Sorry you said if the sodium bicarbonate raises it to do a water Change and use a different compound what we're you referring to there? 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> One last thought.
> 1 gallon of tap in a drywall bucket and move CO2 diffuser to it.
> Don't disturb the assembly just move the hose over to the bucket.
> Test the KH before and after a fixed period of time.
> ...


I think we can say this was the issue. 


mcdanielnc89 said:


> So... My next question then is, say I get my. Kh up to 9, I start injecting Co2, everything is stabilized... Now, I start doing weekly water changes, won't I end up with the same problem I'm currently having? Also, where did you come up with the number 9


Didn't really get an answer on this one Can someone chime in? 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So... My next question then is, say I get my. Kh up to 9, I start injecting Co2, everything is stabilized... Now, I start doing weekly water changes, won't I end up with the same problem I'm currently having? Also, where did you come up with the number 9


I wouldn't do weekly water changes unless you had nitrites.

I said 9 because you have Kh of 3 and then it is 0 when Co2 is injected. Thus if you make 3xs level before injecting Co2 (3) it should stay be between 6 and 9.

Bump:


Savetheplants said:


> Nine is divine. Two teaspoons Sodium Bicarbonate stat! Damn the sodium!
> 
> Actually, My Alkalinity has been dropping too. I also have a 20 gallon aquarium. I put in 1/4 teaspoon Potassium Bicarbonate last Thursday when it got down to 4 dKH.


I have found that Calcium carbonate works better than Sodium Bicarbonate to raise the Kh. Dolomite, which is sold at Vitamin Shoppe, is Calcium magnesium carbonate so that would work too.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Thanks Hilde for that explanation.. I have WONDERFUL NEWS!!!!!

The CO2 is out of the tank, has been since last night. ( i will want to use this again in the future im sure so i have to figure that out still.)

HOWEVER, I added Sodium Bicarb. to the tank. See parameter's below.

PH = 7.0
Ammonia = .50
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 5.0
kH = 5dkH

This looks better right?????



Also, Hilde, maybe someone else did too. You recommended i use ferts to get the plants to stay healthy. the website you provided early on, the Gh, the potassium and something else. Would that be all i need, or should i look at EI dosing.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I have also found this from my water services. https://www.kcwaterservices.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016_Water_Quality_Report.pdf


I don't see 2016 on there though.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

If you do the EI fert regiment you will have to do water changes weekly and have to watch your paramters closely. 

If you just dose with Dolomite, Epsom salts, Iron glutanite or iron sulfate, and KNO3 you won’t need to change the water weekly. Probably get faster growth with the EI fert regiment. I don’t like the EI fert regiment for I don’t reigements and I don’t want to do water changes more than 1x a month.

Here are my recommendations. You probably will have to make adjustments of the amount you dose. May be different every week. Here info on calcium magesium ratio which affects the kh and gh. 

Dolomite to raise the Kh and calcium --------- tsp .25 wkly
Epsom salts (Magnesium sulfate) to raise gh tsp .25 wkly
Iron glutanite tsp .25 wkly
Potassium nitrate (KNO3) tsp .25 wkly
Excel ml 10 daily

Co2 injected
Dolomite tsp .5 wkly
Epsom salt tsp .5 wkly

Epsom 4lb walmart –------------- 2.86
Dolomite1 lb vitamins shoppe 6.29
Iron glutanite nilocg .5lb –-----10.00
Potassium nitrate nilocg 1lb –--3.00
ship------------------------------------- 7.00
Total (without tax) ---------------29.15

Epsom 4lb walmart –----------------- 2.86
Dolomite1 lb aquariumfertilizer -- 4.00
Iron glut .5lb aquariumfertilizer 12.00
Potassium nitrate ----------------------8.00
Ship ---------------------------------------- 8.00
Total (without tax) ------------------ 31.86

A difference of 2.71


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> If you do the EI fert regiment you will have to do water changes weekly and have to watch your paramters closely.


I do weekly water changes now. So would EI dosing be okay to do then?




Hilde said:


> Epsom 4lb walmart –----------------- 2.86
> Dolomite1 lb aquariumfertilizer -- 4.00
> Iron glut .5lb aquariumfertilizer 12.00
> Potassium nitrate ----------------------8.00
> ...


I could do this as well.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I do weekly water changes now. So would EI dosing be okay to do then?


Perhaps if you dose Dolomite tsp .5 wkly aprox. you could do the EI dosing regiment. You can buy a fert package greenleaf

I think it would be best to 1st work on getting the kh to stay a specific value when injecting Co2.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Perhaps if you dose Dolomite tsp .5 wkly aprox. you could do the EI dosing regiment. You can buy a fert package greenleaf
> 
> I think it would be best to 1st work on getting the kh to stay a specific value when injecting Co2.


Yeah I want to figure out how to get my tank to stay stable when injecting Co2. 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde, you mean potassium nitrite or potassium nitrate? I have been told so much I am getting confused now. im sorry if i'm being a hassle. I've been looking at greenleafaquariums.com. Can i get everything from there and if so what is it from there i need to keep kH, pH,GH stable.

again, i'm just so confused now


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I also think I need to rethink my Co2 day system I think it's leaking into the aquarium even when it's off. Would a solenoid help that? 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Good news is. PH is at a 7 4 and kh at a 4dkh

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Alright, after doing research, I think I'm going to go with what was said at the beginning and use the Ultimate GH Booster, Iron Chelate (to keep the red of the plants), and Potassium Nitrate from greenleafaquarium. 

So, Now, I just need to know what it is I can use (other than sodium bicarbonate) to raise the kH of the aquarium safely from a 4dkH to a 9dkH so that I can introduce the CO2 again.

I am also using a DIY CO2 system that has a concentration of citric acid and sodium bicarbonate in two liter bottles. I honestly believe that it leaks into the aquarium even if the system is off currently(perhaps due to pressure). If I add a solenoid to this system, will this help to regulate the CO2 going into the aquarium when it's off, or would it still leak?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Many run CO2 without a KH of 9. It should not be a problem between 2-4.
Problem is when KH is gone.
You can add a solenoid as long as there is a pressure relief valve on the citric acid system.
Otherwise something else could fail under pressure.

NilocG is a member here. You could pm them.

Here is a well rounded fert package they offer.
DIY EI Liquid Fertilizer - NilocG Aquatics

Comes with macro & micro bottles and enough dry mix to fill each bottle 3 times.
You can also add GH booster on the order.

To raise KH calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate.
Try to not use sodium based compounds.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Many run CO2 without a KH of 9. It should not be a problem between 2-4. Problem is when KH is gone.


Well, Hilde made a good point though that when I'm injecting Co2, it's dropping my kh (which starts at a 2dkH, to basically 0. So, somehow I have to get the kH up without it affecting the pH(which is stable now).



Maryland Guppy said:


> You can add a solenoid as long as there is a pressure relief valve on the citric acid system.
> Otherwise something else could fail under pressure.


I do have a pressure relief valve, so adding a solenoid would be beneficial then, correct?



Maryland Guppy said:


> NilocG is a member here. You could pm them.
> 
> Here is a well rounded fert package they offer.
> DIY EI Liquid Fertilizer - NilocG Aquatics
> ...


I will shoot a PM to NilocG



Maryland Guppy said:


> To raise KH calcium carbonate or potassium carbonate.
> Try to not use sodium based compounds.


Thanks! I will do this!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Well, Hilde made a good point though that when I'm injecting Co2, it's dropping my kh (which starts at a 2dkH, to basically 0. So, somehow I have to get the kH up without it affecting the pH(which is stable now).


Under normal circumstances CO2 injection should not strip your water of KH.
Many turn on CO2 in the am and observe a 1.0 drop in pH in a few hours.
When turned off after light cycle pH returns to normal.
This would tell one's self that the KH is still present.

My CO2 injected tank has a KH of 8 at all times that I can tell.
pH is about 6.8 with 30ppm of CO2, normal pH is 7.6-7.8

This is why my very first question was type of substrate.
Many substrates strip carbonates from water.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Under normal circumstances CO2 injection should not strip your water of KH.
> Many turn on CO2 in the am and observe a 1.0 drop in pH in a few hours.
> When turned off after light cycle pH returns to normal.
> This would tell one's self that the KH is still present.
> ...


I'm back at square one then on why i'm Stable now, but not when i put the co2 back in (i am going to test this starting next week(i'm traveling for work this week) it drops kH to 0 and pH to 6. (I'm sitting at a 7.4 currently)


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Sigh.... I believe my tank did start to complete the cycle again. My nitrites and nitrates have spiked. I used a half a bag of aquarium bacteria last week and the other half I just dosed thus week. Fingers crossed. My kh seemed to have gone down thiugh to s 2dkh. I have calcium carbonate so I'm hoping that will help. We shall see... 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> You can add a solenoid as long as there is a pressure relief valve on the citric acid system.


If you decide to get a solenoid the clippard is 1 that runs cool.
Below is how Jrill hooked the solenoid into Citric Co2 system.

You run the Co2 24/7? Read that some just put the Co2 output in a bucket of water at night.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm back at square one then on why i'm Stable now, but not when i put the co2 back in (i am going to test this starting next week(i'm traveling for work this week) it drops kH to 0 and pH to 6. (I'm sitting at a 7.4 currently)


I don't believe there is any way for CO2 to drop the KH, the concentration of bicarbonate (HCO3-) in the water. And, I know that CO2 cannot drop the concentration of bicarbonates to zero. (See The Principle of Conservation of Alkalinity by Pankow - Google it) So, I have to assume that your KH test isn't being done correctly. When your KH drops to zero, does it go back to the original value when you shut off the CO2, after a few hours?

Anytime you increase the concentration of CO2 in the water, the pH will drop, no matter what KH you start with (in the real world, KH will not be zero, even if it approaches zero). KH, no matter how high, does not in any way buffer the pH of the water against changes in CO2 in the water. All it does is act with CO2 to form a buffer against changes in pH from other weak acids being added or removed from the water. pH buffers always consist of a weak acid, like carbonic acid, and the conjugate base of carbonic acid, which is a bicarbonate. (carbonic acid = H2CO3 and a conjugate base is XHCO3, where X is a cation.)

Since our KH test kits actually measure alkalinity, which doesn't necessarily all come from carbonate compounds, it is possible that your water has something other than carbonate compounds making up the alkalinity. For example, some phosphates, including some of the compounds used by water companies to increase the pH of their water, can contribute to alkalinity. Perhaps your water has virtually no carbonates in it? If so, adding CO2 could possibly drop the alkalinity. Looking at the KC water quality report, your water does have a lot of calcium in it, and most calcium in water is in the form of calcium carbonate, so I doubt that any significant part of your KH is something other than carbonates.

I'm way, way out on a limb here:nerd:


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So I got a gh test kit. I am pretty sure my gh is 0. As is. My tap water. Advice!??? 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

What brand of GH and KH test kits do you have? When both read zero something other than the water is probably wrong, and that is usually a test kit or both.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> What brand of GH and KH test kits do you have? When both read zero something other than the water is probably wrong, and that is usually a test kit or both.


API. The kH test kit work as in the betta tank it gets readings.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Okay. I did the test wrong. My apologies.. Here are my latest parameters.


Temp: 76
pH: 7.6
Ammonia: .25
Nitrite:5.0
Nitrate: 80
Alkalinity: 4dkH
General hardness: 9dgH

I did a 50% Waterchange yesterday and added 1TBSP of Calcium Carbonate yesterday as well as a half of a bag of Bacteria from Marineland. 

Should I take action tonight with a waterchange, or go ahead and wait it out since I do believe my tank is going through a cycle again?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Okay. I did the test wrong. My apologies.. Here are my latest parameters.
> 
> 
> Temp: 76
> ...


Generally for cycling you wait until Ammonia and Nitrites are 0 to change the water. You have fish in so you can not do that. What fish have survived this ordeal?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Generally for cycling you wait until Ammonia and Nitrites are 0 to change the water. You have fish in so you can not do that. What fish have survived this ordeal?


My neon tetras and cories have survived. A couple of guppies, and all but 1 platy.

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> My neon tetras and cories have survived. A couple of guppies, and all but 1 platy.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Well for the fish I would do water changes of 10% every other day until the nitrites go down. The ammonia doesn't seem to be too high. Could you get some more stem plants to absorb the ammonia. I have found Pet Supermaket to have cheap stem plants.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Well for the fish I would do water changes of 10% every other day until the nitrites go down. The ammonia doesn't seem to be too high. Could you get some more stem plants to absorb the ammonia. I have found Pet Supermaket to have cheap stem plants.


That's the thing I had three bunches of money wort. They died within three days 

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## caliplant (Aug 29, 2016)

Your co2 may be leeching into the tank somehow. Co2 is very similar to muriatic acid that is used in pools. That's actually what I used in my pool instead of acid my solenoids will inject co2 and it lowers the pH. With so many swings you will kill off somethings especially since it's going to 6. Pretty acidic. Stabilize your tank. Do a 50% water change help remove some of the ammonia. Are you running sponge filters hob or canister make sure your not cleaning your media under regular tap water use the tank water.. crushed coral will help you stabilize your ph. I guess your co2 is not 30ppm and much higher is you are going down to 6 my friend. What type of co2 monitor are you using? Your ph2 needs to stabilize I would stop adding all that extra stuff into your tank right now. Kh will drop we use acid in pools to remove hardness from the water. This again is the same as our aquarium and co2 causing your Kh to drop but don't focus on that right now. Stabilize your ph or you won't keep anything alive. No more money on carbonates and all that other stuff regular water changes will replace that for you. 

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Nitrite:5.0
> Nitrate: 80
> 
> Should I take action tonight with a waterchange,


IMO the NO2 is rather high for fish in cycle.
I like your idea of another 50% WC.

pH and temp should cycle your tank fine.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> IMO the NO2 is rather high for fish in cycle.
> I like your idea of another 50% WC.
> 
> pH and temp should cycle your tank fine.


I shall do this again tonight 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

caliplant said:


> Your co2 may be leeching into the tank somehow. Co2 is very similar to muriatic acid that is used in pools. That's actually what I used in my pool instead of acid my solenoids will inject co2 and it lowers the pH. With so many swings you will kill off somethings especially since it's going to 6. Pretty acidic. Stabilize your tank. Do a 50% water change help remove some of the ammonia. Are you running sponge filters hob or canister make sure your not cleaning your media under regular tap water use the tank water.. crushed coral will help you stabilize your ph. I guess your co2 is not 30ppm and much higher is you are going down to 6 my friend. What type of co2 monitor are you using? Your ph2 needs to stabilize I would stop adding all that extra stuff into your tank right now. Kh will drop we use acid in pools to remove hardness from the water. This again is the same as our aquarium and co2 causing your Kh to drop but don't focus on that right now. Stabilize your ph or you won't keep anything alive. No more money on carbonates and all that other stuff regular water changes will replace that for you.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


CO2 does not affect the KH of the water.

A 6.0 pH is not very acidic, and not harmful to the plants or fish.

pH drops as a result of CO2 additions do not harm the fish or plants.

Coral or other forms of calcium carbonate do not stabilize pH, they just raise the pH.

Swimming pools are not planted aquariums, and are maintained completely diffferently.


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## caliplant (Aug 29, 2016)

You lost me as soon as you said a ph of 6 Is not acidic for fish or plants. A ph of 7 is neutral therefore by definition a ph of 6 is acidic. Go back to school little guy. 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

caliplant said:


> You lost me as soon as you said a ph of 6 Is not acidic for fish or plants. A ph of 7 is neutral therefore by definition a ph of 6 is acidic. Go back to school little guy.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk


Sorry, I don't know any school that accepts 80 year old guys.:laugh2:

Re read what I said: you left out the word "very". 6.0pH water is not *very* acidic as far as fish and plants are concerned. Unless that pH is caused by something other than CO2, it isn't a problem. Even then, it is unlikely to be a problem unless it occurs due to a big change in TDS.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I just want to say that I appreciate everyone's opinions in this discussion. I do need to focs on getting the tank to finish a cycle before experimenting anymore on anything. So far, I have a stable ph(7.4), kH(5dkH), and gH(10dgH). I like the readings from the past three days.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Those parameters should get you cycled.
Try not to expose your fish to any high levels of NO2 or NO3.
Seems like ammonia is about under control now.

I reckon the KH / pH debate will continue.
That will need to be resolved before CO2 can be re-applied.

Due to all the debate going on I opted to test some water.
With 30ppm of CO2 and with de-gassed sample KH in my tank didn't move.
pH moved the typical 1.0 amount.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Those parameters should get you cycled.
> Try not to expose your fish to any high levels of NO2 or NO3.
> Seems like ammonia is about under control now.
> 
> ...


Yes that's what I'm hoping for. 

Remember, I did the three cups. Of tap water test. One with Co2, one with airspace, and third just tap. The Co2 cup ph dropped to 6. I guess that assumes it was more than 30ppm? How do you make sure only 30ppm gets into the tank? 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

30 ppm is not a magic number. It began to be used as the optimum number back fairly early in the CO2 game, when people wanted to know how much CO2 they could use without killing off any fish. The general consensus was that 30 ppm was safe for almost all fish in almost all tanks. And, it was believed that the benefits of using CO2 went only to the tanks having as much CO2 as the fish could live with.

Some very skilled people use a lot more than 30 ppm CO2, and do it safely. They know how to keep the tank water well saturated with oxygen, helping the fish to tolerate more CO2. They know what fish can tolerate CO2 best. And, they spend the time to find what level of CO2 gives them the healthiest plants, without going higher than that. Those people generally use high light, because they want to grow any plants that interest them, and get good coloration with all of them.

If you use less than high light, your plants won't do any better with 30 ppm, than with perhaps 20 ppm, and possibly even less. So, you can either find a way to use a drop checker well enough to let you know that you have a good level of CO2 for your tank, or you can go through the steps necessary to find the optimum level of CO2, whatever it is, for your tank, by watching the plants carefully. Then you won't care if you have 30 ppm or 20 or 15 or 40 ppm. But, there is no easy cheap way to accurately use anything to read out your CO2 ppm on.

How much CO2 you have depends on what bubble rate you use, how you diffuse the CO2 into the tank water, how well you avoid unnecessary loss of CO2 from the water, how good your water circulation in the tank is, etc. All of that is just stuff you learn from experience and research.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Today's results

Temp 76
Ph 7.6
Ammonia . 25
Nitrites 5.0
Nitrates 40
Gh 10dgh
Kh 5dkh


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## caliplant (Aug 29, 2016)

Good deal remember the pH level that plants actually uptake nutrients and grow. You want to be between those levels. 

For the other Dude who said the pool is different from an aquarium I agree. However I have very hard water ph out of the tap is 8.5! I use muriatic acid in a bucket to bring it to 7.0 before I add it to the tank. Maybe some of these hobbyists never worked in a fish store so they will not know the cheap secrets they used. Muriatic acid by the 1 gal is about $5 and when you have such a large volume of water to reduce ph levels they use muriatic acid! Yes I'm telling you right. Instead of dry chemical acid buffers they used pool acid. Water in this case is water! I have even added muriatic acid directly to my tank to help bring ph levels down after first setting it up. Hey you want to spend an enormous amount of money on more expensive products when the main ingredients are bought off the shelf in local improvement stores that's your business. Come give me your money I can sell you all kinds of buffers bacteria whatever you want! Lol its a joke and I hate people who just keep telling you to buy more products or add this and that. Our aquariums are very simple. I think we tend to complicate it. However to each their own and I'm glad your tank is getting closer. I can tell you I added tetra safe start to all my new tanks 3 of them and had a fishless cycle in 3 days. My one big suggestion is if you have access to someone with a cycled sponge from an established tank you will see immediate benefits. One of my tanks I did that too and my cloudy water in the tank with tetra safe start cleared up over night and all my levels stabilized due to the bacteria that had already existed on the colonized sponge. Find a local in your area or ask your local fish store if you can soak a sponge in one of their tanks. Most will help you out. My local stores give the customers packets of instant cycle for free when you come in and buy fish but that cause they actually care about the hobby and not their pocket. 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Don't put hydrochloric acid in your planted tank, unless you plan to use it as a swimming pool. Believe it or not I have had swimming pools and learned how to maintain them, too. But, I never wanted to grow plants in a swimming pool. It is only slightly possible - not at all possible, in reality - that decades of experience with planted tanks is worth less than a few years experience maintaining a swimming pool. Hydrochloric acid, HCl, has no use in a planted tank.

Water is water. Correct. But, it is what is in the water that is far different between swimming pools and aquariums. Just for starters, Cl- ions are only tolerated to a minor extent in aquariums. Table salt, NaCl, for example is very hard on freshwater fish.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

At this point in time am I doing everything correctly? I thought I knew what I was doing, but clearly the years of owning an aquarium is not doing me any justice this time around... Thankfully the plants are doing FINE without co2 currently, Not getting the growth or colors i'd like to have, but hey, at least they don't seem to be dying!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I didn't read your whole thread but just to let you know, a planted tank does better with lower pH from my experience. Why fight it.
pH change from CO2 doesn't affect the fish.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> I didn't read your whole thread but just to let you know, a planted tank does better with lower pH from my experience. Why fight it.
> pH change from CO2 doesn't affect the fish.


Clearly it does somehow. I've stopped losing fish since the pH has been back to neutral.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I am more concerned with you KH dropping low.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I am more concerned with you KH dropping low.


you and me both. so far it's staying stable at the moment. Il'l do a water change tomorrow and my "weekly parameter test" so we shall see.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Is your Co2 in now? Are the ammonia and nitrites 0?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Is your Co2 in now? Are the ammonia and nitrites 0?


CO2 is not in. I don't want to put that back in until my Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites reach an equilibrium. Then deal with other things.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> CO2 is not in. I don't want to put that back in until my Ammonia, Nitrates, and Nitrites reach an equilibrium. Then deal with other things.


That sounds like a good plan. What plants are left?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> That sounds like a good plan. What plants are left?


All my plants for the most part are still ok the jungle vals ludwigia, hornwkrt and money wort are all ok for. Now 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Here is a video and a couple more current pictures... 

https://vimeo.com/183933080













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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

So I came across this thread by chance and since it was so current I decided to signed up so that I could post a reply. I happen to have been doing a good deal of research on the subject.

Given the swings in your pH I wonder how accurate your kH (alkalinity/buffering capacity) actually is. Still, 5 is on the low end of what would be considered an overall good buffering capacity.

I don't have planted tanks, but I suggest both increasing your buffering capacity as well as do more research on your Co2 dosing requirements as they relate to your kH.

I would suggest testing your pH every day for a few days to understand better the rate at which your pH is changing. While gradual change in pH may not be so bad, rapid changes simply are deadly to your fish.

On that note, take care to not replace water that is different by more than .3 in any significant amount.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I like the video of the tank, it looks good too!
Fishes seem alright swimming around and all.



mcdanielnc89 said:


> Today's results
> Temp 76
> Ph 7.6
> Ammonia . 25
> ...


Looks like NH3 is under control.
NO2 not so much yet, it takes longer anyway.
I have tried bacteria in a bottle before, I was not impressed at all.
Remain patient and let it cycle, why hurry?



mcdanielnc89 said:


> All my plants for the most part are still
> ok the jungle vals ludwigia, hornwkrt and money wort


Plants appear fine from the pic you posted.
Large plant with big green leaves, some type of anubias maybe?
I would lift it up a bit to expose the rhizome if it is an anubias.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I like the video of the tank, it looks good too!
> Fishes seem alright swimming around and all.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes it's an anubius

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> So I came across this thread by chance and since it was so current I decided to signed up so that I could post a reply. I happen to have been doing a good deal of research on the subject.
> 
> Given the swings in your pH I wonder how accurate your kH (alkalinity/buffering capacity) actually is. Still, 5 is on the low end of what would be considered an overall good buffering capacity.
> 
> ...


See: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...1083178-alkalinity-carbonate-hardness-kh.html KH is not a measure of bufffering capacity. KH is just a measure of the ability of the water to neutralize acidity. In aquariums, where there is always dissolved CO2, higher KH just means a higher pH. Also, CO2 dosing is not related to how much KH you have. With a high KH you get high pH. With low KH you get low pH. Either is acceptable, but, many people find that low pH water is better for plants than high pH water.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Here are my latest results. I am going to do 25% water change and dose with water conditioner, stability and that's it. My. Parameters seem to be going down which is good. 










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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

It is looking like it is almost ready to inject Co2. I would 1st make certain you Kh is up. Some Gh booster may help raise the kh and gh. True it may also raise your ph but you ph is low so it doesn't seem like something to worry about.


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

Hoppy said:


> See: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...1083178-alkalinity-carbonate-hardness-kh.html KH is not a measure of bufffering capacity. KH is just a measure of the ability of the water to neutralize acidity.


I think we're on the same page, but I think you might be slightly confused with terminology. The above two sentences are contradictory. Buffering capacity _is_ the ability to neutralize acidity.



Hoppy said:


> With a high KH you get high pH. With low KH you get low pH. Either is acceptable, but, many people find that low pH water is better for plants than high pH water.


This I do not agree with, as (generally) it is only 50% correct. While it is true that with high KH you get a higher (and more stable) pH, a low KH does not get you a low pH. What you really have with low KH is an inability to protect against pH swings which are harmful to aquatic life. With low KH your CO2 dosing needs to be very precise and consistent - and changes to that dosing should occur gradually. Otherwise, water with lower KH/alkalinity/buffering capacity will have a pH that is all over the place, thus creating a hazardous environment for your fishy friends.

Below are a number of statements quoted from Water, Alkalinity & pH



> "Alkalinity is the water’s capacity to resist changes in pH that would make the water more acidic."
> 
> "pH simply expresses the degree of hydrogen ion concentration."
> 
> ...


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I thought it was low ph means you get low gh (soft water) generally. I have high ph and low gh from my tank water. Ph gets low eventually.


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

Hilde said:


> It is looking like it is almost ready to inject Co2. I would 1st make certain you Kh is up. Some Gh booster may help raise the kh and gh. True it may also raise your ph but you ph is low so it doesn't seem like something to worry about.


I suggest that before using any off-the-shelf solutions for altering your chemistry, first try adding, for each 5gal of water that you are changing, 1-2 tsp of pure sodium bicarbonate to start. I'm sure you already have it (baking soda) in your pantry.

Bump:


Hilde said:


> I thought it was low ph means you get low gh (soft water) generally. I have high ph and low gh from my tank water. Ph gets low eventually.


Generally speaking other factors contribute to your pH, but not so much the other way around. Only one example I could really think of which would be if you had natural stone or shells in the aquarium - the introduction of lower pH water might result in faster dissolution/absorption of those minerals. 

There is a wealth of enlightening information (and not just related to aquariums) that you can find with internet search terms "alkaline vs alkalinity"


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> I suggest that before using any off-the-shelf solutions for altering your chemistry, first try adding, for each 5gal of water that you are changing, 1-2 tsp of pure sodium bicarbonate to start. I'm sure you already have it (baking soda) in your pantry.


I find Calcium Carbonate better at raising the Kh than baking soda. Perhaps 1tps weekly may help. Can buy on evilbay cheap.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> It is looking like it is almost ready to inject Co2. I would 1st make certain you Kh is up. Some Gh booster may help raise the kh and gh. True it may also raise your ph but you ph is low so it doesn't seem like something to worry about.


Will calcium carbonate work? 

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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

You want bi-carbonates. Sodium bicarbonate dissolves instantly in water. Calcium carbonate (note lack of bi-) is not water soluble without carbon dioxide saturated water. Any that does react results in calcium BI-carbonate solution, which is what you want. What's left over is a suspension of calcium carbonate in a calcium bi-carbonate solution.

If you can manage to dissolve the entire amount added, sure it will work similarly to raise your KH. However, if you were wanting to test the treated water for KH before adding it to your tank, and you had part calcium bi-carbonate solution and part calcium carbonate _suspension_ - you might find that the remainder of the calcium carbonate might dissolve after adding it to your co2 treated tank.

This may be desirable in your case.

Will it work to raise your Alkalinity? Sure. It may leave you scratching your head at your water parameters (KH raise upon co2 introduction) unless you know what you're looking for.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Will calcium carbonate work?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes I think it will. Also the addition of Gh booster may be helpful.

Bump:


Mark Basil Jr. said:


> You want bi-carbonates. Sodium bicarbonate dissolves instantly in water. Calcium carbonate (note lack of bi-) is not water soluble without carbon dioxide saturated water. Any that does react results in calcium BI-carbonate solution, which is what you want. What's left over is a suspension of calcium carbonate in a calcium bi-carbonate solution.


Thus you don't have to constantly dose with sodium bicarbonate. I am talking from experience. My tap water is so soft that when I changed the water the fish would go up to the top in stress. I use to dose the water with sodium bicarb while adding the water. Awhile after dosing calcium carb in the water I changed the water and I didn't have to dose the water with Sodium bicarb. The fish, Threadfin Rainbow fish did not go up to the top.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

This will take the "guess" out of any dosing.
Zorfox's Planted Tank Calculator


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> I suggest that before using any off-the-shelf solutions for altering your chemistry, first try adding, for each 5gal of water that you are changing, 1-2 tsp of pure sodium bicarbonate to start. I'm sure you already have it (baking soda) in your pantry.


I have used Sodium Bicarbonate and Calcium Carbonate. I used Calcium carbonate instead of Baking soda as others siad it woudl be safer.



Hilde said:


> I find Calcium Carbonate better at raising the Kh than baking soda. Perhaps 1tps weekly may help. Can buy on evilbay cheap.


I do have Calcium Carbonate.

My confusion is still why do I get low kh readings when injecting co2. which in turn reduces my ph to a 6 with co2 injection. I can't say this will happen again until I start using co2. but i guess time will tell once i start using co2 again.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

From Mark Basil Jr.:


> I think we're on the same page, but I think you might be slightly confused with terminology. The above two sentences are contradictory. Buffering capacity _is_ the ability to neutralize acidity.


Nope. The "buffering" means holding a variable, like pH, constant with addition of chemicals that would otherwise change that variable. Alkalinity, bicarbonates, plus carbonic acid form a buffer against changes in pH. The pH that is being maintained is determined by the mix of carbonic acid and bicarbonates. "A buffer is a solution containing either a weak acid and its salt or a weak base and its salt, which is resistant to changes in pH." (from Buffer Definition - Chemistry Glossary)


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
> With a high KH you get high pH. With low KH you get low pH. Either is acceptable, but, many people find that low pH water is better for plants than high pH water.
> This I do not agree with, as (generally) it is only 50% correct. While it is true that with high KH you get a higher (and more stable) pH, a low KH does not get you a low pH. What you really have with low KH is an inability to protect against pH swings which are harmful to aquatic life. With low KH your CO2 dosing needs to be very precise and consistent - and changes to that dosing should occur gradually. Otherwise, water with lower KH/alkalinity/buffering capacity will have a pH that is all over the place, thus creating a hazardous environment for your fishy friends.


 That is just wrong, even though virtually every planted tank hobbyist thinks it is true. Sorry, I only bring this up because I think we should know the meaning of terms like this, just because it helps us avoid some mistakes.


> Below are a number of statements quoted from Water, Alkalinity & pH
> 
> Quote:
> "Alkalinity is the water’s capacity to resist changes in pH that would make the water more acidic."


 Sorry, this just isn't true.


> "pH simply expresses the degree of hydrogen ion concentration."
> 
> "Alkaline means that the pH is greater than 7. Alkalinity is the
> true measure of acid-neutralizing capacity"
> ...


Yes, it is commonly known that way, but it is still not true. We need to correct what is commonly known when we find errors.


> "...if you add the same weak acid solution to two vials of water - both with a pH of 7, but one with no buffering power (e.g. zero alkalinity) and the other with buffering power (e.g. an alkalinity of 50 mg/l) - the pH of the zero alkalinity water will immediately drop while the pH of the buffered water will change very little or not at all."


 Again, not true. First, the one tube containing water with a KH of about 2 dKH, will not have a pH of 7, it will have a pH of about 7.4, due to the CO2 from the atmosphere, and the other tube will have a pH probably below 6, due to the CO2 in the atmosphere. Now, when you add a tiny bit of very weak acid solution, the one with the 2 dKH water will drop a bit, but soon return to the original pH. The other one will drop in pH and not return to the original pH. The buffering is not instantaneous.

It took me about 10 years to finally understand what "buffer" means in chemistry. But, once I understood it, it became obvious that the shortcut of calling KH a buffer was too incorrect to leave unchallenged. I doubt that I will be able to change many minds on this, but eventually enough chemists will chime in and slowly we can correct what "every one knows".

I first ran into this problem when I decided to use a buffer to maintain some water at a fixed pH. I found I would have to mix up some "pH down" and "pH up" "buffers" to do this. When I went back to the chemistry books to understand this I ran into the acid and its conjugate base nomenclature. And, on and on I studied for 10 years - I can be a slow learner of chemistry.:smile:


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

Hoppy said:


> From Mark Basil Jr.:
> "A buffer is a solution containing either a weak acid and its salt or a weak base and its salt, which is resistant to changes in pH." (from Buffer Definition - Chemistry Glossary)


The next link down from that page defines it as: "A buffer is an aqueous solution that has a highly stable pH". 

Think I'll just let this conversation be at that. You seem to have far more correct information than anyone else.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> The next link down from that page defines it as: "A buffer is an aqueous solution that has a highly stable pH".
> 
> Think I'll just let this conversation be at that. You seem to have far more correct information than anyone else.


That statement about a buffer is correct. The buffer in our aquariums is made up of carbonic acid, H2CO3 and its conjugate base, carbonate, HCO3-. My information comes from textbooks and online references. So far no chemist has contradicted it, but if I am wrong I hope some will.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

It looks like my Kh is going down. I'm not sure... I did a 20 percent water change this past Friday but that was it other than using stability, and flourish

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

It looks like the tank is fully cycled now! That is the good news. A change in KH of only 1 degree could easily be within the accuracy of the test kit. I hope that is also the good news.


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

Hoppy said:


> That statement about a buffer is correct. The buffer in our aquariums is made up of carbonic acid, H2CO3 and its conjugate base, carbonate, HCO3-. My information comes from textbooks and online references. So far no chemist has contradicted it, but if I am wrong I hope some will.


Honestly in my opinion you're arguing semantics. I'm not saying that you're wrong. What I'm suggesting is that I'm also not wrong. You've given clear evidence of what a literal "buffer" is insofar as chemistry nerds are concerned. For some reason you've taken offense/become defensive, and failed to consider that a water with high carbonate/bi-carbonate - ie high alkalinity - concentration does in fact buffer against pH changes. It may not be "A BUFFER" but it does "BUFFER". 

I could go on and on all day quoting "chemistry" references. Here's one:

"Alkalinity is a chemical measurement of a water’s ability to neutralize acids.
Alkalinity is also a measure of a water’s buffering capacity or its ability to resist changes
in pH upon the addition of acids or bases."

from: https://www.whitman.edu/chemistry/edusolns_software/AlkalinityBackground.pdf

See? There now I'm right again and you're wrong again. Seems silly, right?

I urge you to take a step back and consider these points so that this thread can be more a reference for information rather than a silly argument over definitions of terms.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> It looks like the tank is fully cycled now! That is the good news. A change in KH of only 1 degree could easily be within the accuracy of the test kit. I hope that is also the good news.


I'm hoping you're correct. I'm going to give it this week to see what happens. Friday is my waterchange day. The only thing I'm worried about at this point are my nitrates. 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> It looks like my Kh is going down. I'm not sure... I did a 20 percent water change this past Friday but that was it other than using stability, and flourish


I wish you would try Calcium Carbonate instead Seachem Stability. The Calcium Carbonate will take longer to dissolve thus should create a more stable Kh and Ph.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I wish you would try Calcium Carbonate instead Seachem Stability. The Calcium Carbonate will take longer to dissolve thus should create a more stable Kh and Ph.


I used Calcium Carbonate about 1.5 weeks ago to get the kH to raise. That's what I used initially. I use stability when i do a water change or add fish.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Hilde said:


> I wish you would try Calcium Carbonate instead Seachem Stability. The Calcium Carbonate will take longer to dissolve thus should create a more stable Kh and Ph.


The Stability dissolves so much quicker though :grin2:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> The Stability dissolves so much quicker though :grin2:


Yeh and thus it disappears quicker.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Am I going to have to always dose to keep my kh up? 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Am I going to have to always dose to keep my kh up?


My water got very soft with a low alkalinity. Thus when I changed the water the Threadfin Rainbow fish would go up to the top. I lost 1 fish. Starting dosing with sodium bicarb while adding the water. Since I dosed with calcium carbonate I have not had to dose with sodium bicarb while I add water.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> My water got very soft with a low alkalinity. Thus when I changed the water the Threadfin Rainbow fish would go up to the top. I lost 1 fish. Starting dosing with sodium bicarb while adding the water. Since I dosed with calcium carbonate I have not had to dose with sodium bicarb while I add water.


So I just need to keep an eye on it during water changes and if it does dose with the calcium carbonate? 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So I just need to keep an eye on it during water changes and if it does dose with the calcium carbonate?


Hmm!! Calcium carbonate dissolves slowly so that probably will not work. Remember nothing is written in stone when it comes with dealing with nature. I noticed that in my electronic classes. Just watch the fish. If they start going up add sodium bicarb up to 1Tbs. You also want to add the dechlorinator while filling the tank. Since your fish have been stress I think they would do good with API Stress Coat + would help.

Calcium carbonate stabilized my tank so water changes don't stress the fish out anymore.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I suppose I'll Just have to use Calcium Carbonate when neccesary. Though, Starting Saturday, I think I'm going to introduce co2 back into the tank and see what happens. My pH and kH has been pretty stable since i removed the CO2.


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Am I going to have to always dose to keep my kh up?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


You could add some seashells. Over time they will dissolve and keep your kh up. Start with just a few. Boil them first before adding them in.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Should I do a little waterchange to see if I can get those nitrates down? If not I'll just do my weekly normal water change Friday 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Should I do a little waterchange to see if I can get those nitrates down? If not I'll just do my weekly normal water change Friday


40 is the highest for a good amount. When I had 60 I got string algae. So if you have to do a water change immediately depends if you see any bad algae starting up. Otherwise it can wait.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

NO algae, so i think it can wait.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

For calcium carbonate how much should I dose! 😣 










It appears my kh keeps dropping slowly. Does anyone have any idea what can make it do this now that I have no Co2 currently in the system? 

I was going to start injecting Co2 back this weekend, but I unexpectedly had baby guppies born yesterday so I don't want to deal with what I did last time if that happened. So, there went my experimentation. Lol 😁 

https://vimeo.com/185072401

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Maryland Guppy said:


> This will take the "guess" out of any dosing.
> Zorfox's Planted Tank Calculator


20 gallon I though you had.
1 gram is almost 1 dKH

The calculator will help, I just used it.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> 20 gallon I though you had.
> 1 gram is almost 1 dKH
> 
> The calculator will help, I just used it.


This would be a great resource if i had a windows PC. lol


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Adding calcium carbonate with water with a pH of 7.6 will have a very, very slow effect on the KH. That is one reason why sodium bicarbonate is used by so many people to raise the KH.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

SO. Let me just say this now. I'm getting SO confused on what you all are telling me to do now. People are telling me to use Calcium Carbonate to raise it rather than Sodium Bicarbonate. So, now, I'm going around in circles. lol. What do I use...

I put 5 grams of Calcium carbonate in the tank this morning. Prior to adding it to the tank I dissolved it in a bucket first. That helped.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Every time I have told someone to use baking soda I manage to get my arse handed to me.
Someone complains there will be too much sodium accumulated in the water, bad for plant, fish, etc...
I tell someone to use CaCO3 and then why are you not using baking soda.
This is one of the down sides regarding, preference, advise, assumption, and opinion.

Both will work, switch up between the two.
Too much of either compound could eventually create an issue.
@mcdanielnc89 I was on a reef site and read an interesting article yesterday.
I believe they stated a low Mg level could reduce alkalinity even with additional buffers added.
I will try and find it to reference here. Same for freshwater? Kent Marine products website.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Every time I have told someone to use baking soda I manage to get my arse handed to me.
> Someone complains there will be too much sodium accumulated in the water, bad for plant, fish, etc...
> I tell someone to use CaCO3 and then why are you not using baking soda.
> This is one of the down sides regarding, preference, advise, assumption, and opinion.
> ...


That's interesting my plants are doing OK they could do so much better could be why kh is going down at a slower pace.

I ordered thrive from nilocg. Hopefully that'll start helping it should be here Tuesday at the latest 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> SO. Let me just say this now. I'm getting SO confused on what you all are telling me to do now. People are telling me to use Calcium Carbonate to raise it rather than Sodium Bicarbonate. So, now, I'm going around in circles. lol. What do I use...
> 
> I put 5 grams of Calcium carbonate in the tank this morning. Prior to adding it to the tank I dissolved it in a bucket first. That helped.


To me it depends on how fast you need to get the KH up. For I 1st tried Dolomite gravel in a bag in the tank for 2 weeks. Had no change. I used Sodium Bicarb when my fish were stress and it quickly raised the kh and Ph. The calcium carbonate dissolved slower than the Sodium Bicarb and has stabilized the system.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> I ordered thrive from nilocg. Hopefully that'll start helping it should be here Tuesday at the latest
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


That is quite expensive. You are also paying for the water. Dry ferts is the way to go. Have you tried the fert calculator?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> To me it depends on how fast you need to get the KH up. For I 1st tried Dolomite gravel in a bag in the tank for 2 weeks. Had no change. I used Sodium Bicarb when my fish were stress and it quickly raised the kh and Ph. The calcium carbonate dissolved slower than the Sodium Bicarb and has stabilized the system.
> 
> Bump:
> That is quite expensive. You are also paying for the water. Dry ferts is the way to go. Have you tried the fert calculator?


I have not tried the dry feet calculator. Money isn't a problem for me when it comes to things like this. Thrive should get me where I need to be hopefully we shall see. Plug its easier than measuring everything out. If it doesn't do what I want it to do, I'll definitely do the dry fertz next

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Seachem Stability is great for quick small increases. For long term I prefer Calcium carb for long term. I think a week before you do water change you should add a Tbs1 of Calcium carb. Then check your nitrates for stem plants are nitrate hogs. KNO3 (potassium nitrate) will supply the nitrates.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Seachem Stability is great for quick small increases. For long term I prefer Calcium carb for long term. I think a week before you do water change you should add a Tbs1 of Calcium carb. Then check your nitrates for stem plants are nitrate hogs. KNO3 (potassium nitrate) will supply the nitrates.


I do weekly water changes. So I assume I'd need to be adding calcium carbonate weekly. Don't you think that would be too much? 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I do weekly water changes. So I assume I'd need to be adding calcium carbonate weekly. Don't you think that would be too much?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes! I was assuming water changes 1x a month. Then just use the stability after water change and dose the the calcium carbonate monthly.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Yes! I was assuming water changes 1x a month. Then just use the stability after water change and dose the the calcium carbonate monthly.


Awesome. Thanks 

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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> SO. Let me just say this now. I'm getting SO confused on what you all are telling me to do now. People are telling me to use Calcium Carbonate to raise it rather than Sodium Bicarbonate. So, now, I'm going around in circles. lol. What do I use...
> 
> I put 5 grams of Calcium carbonate in the tank this morning. Prior to adding it to the tank I dissolved it in a bucket first. That helped.


Sorry McD - I know how you feel. As I've said in a previous post - both with ultimately do the same (raise your bicarbonates). Best advise I can give you is to research a bit on the side and realize that opinions are like.. well.. you know.

In the mean time, why don't you boil a few sea shells and toss them into your tank. This is going to be the most natural method that you can use to keep that parameter up. It works for mother nature, and it will work for you. The benefit here is *you won't need to fuss with dosing* your change-water once you find your number/size.

I'd start with 3 small shells - between quarter and silver-dollar size.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> Sorry McD - I know how you feel. As I've said in a previous post - both with ultimately do the same (raise your bicarbonates). Best advise I can give you is to research a bit on the side and realize that opinions are like.. well.. you know.
> 
> In the mean time, why don't you boil a few sea shells and toss them into your tank. This is going to be the most natural method that you can use to keep that parameter up. It works for mother nature, and it will work for you. The benefit here is *you won't need to fuss with dosing* your change-water once you find your number/size.
> 
> I'd start with 3 small shells - between quarter and silver-dollar size.


So when you say sea shells. Any particular kinds or anything!? 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Something I just thought about... I'm running an airwall stone 24/7 in the tank. This wouldn't cause the kH to drop at all would it?


Also, just thinking as well. If I turn the wall off and inject co2 slowly at less than 1bps, would it even be worth doing that? (or even running co2 at 1bps throughout the day (from about 7:30am-5:00pm) ,then run the airstone. What are your opinions on this? I just don't want to lose anymore fish because of CO2 dropping the ph and kh, like i have seen it happening previously.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Also, just thinking as well. If I turn the wall off and inject co2 slowly at less than 1bps, would it even be worth doing that? (or even running co2 at 1bps throughout the day (from about 7:30am-5:00pm) ,then run the airstone. What are your opinions on this? I just don't want to lose anymore fish because of CO2 dropping the ph and kh, like i have seen it happening previously.


Seems it would be less stressful if you set up a small tank and see what the Co2 does. Ceap on craigslist.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

i have a 5.5 gallon tank that i could use as a test subject.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> i have a 5.5 gallon tank that i could use as a test subject.


Great! 

Last tank I setup was a 10g with sand substrate. My tap water ph is 8.6. I let it sit for a month and the ph went down to 6.8. Added nothing else.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

My latest stats. Since Friday I added 5 grams of calcium carbonate. Today I added ferts(thrive!). 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> My latest stats. Since Friday I added 5 grams of calcium carbonate. Today I added ferts(thrive!).


That sounds good. What do you use to measure the grams?

If you have some plants that have to have Co2 now you could put them in pots the experiment tank.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> That sounds good. What do you use to measure the grams?
> 
> If you have some plants that have to have Co2 now you could put them in pots the experiment tank.


I just use a regular food scale that I purchased off amazon.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I just use a regular food scale that I purchased off amazon.


Do put the powder in something on the scale?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Do put the powder in something on the scale?



Yes, I use a measuring cup. put the powder in the measuring up after zeroing out the scale.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Alright Guys... I'm just completely pissed off. I do not know what else to do with the CO2 system. I put up a 1 gallon tank with CO2 in it. Within 1 hour, the pH is dropped to a 6.0... I have got to get this figured out. What else can I do?


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## Mark Basil Jr. (Sep 23, 2016)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Alright Guys... I'm just completely pissed off. I do not know what else to do with the CO2 system. I put up a 1 gallon tank with CO2 in it. Within 1 hour, the pH is dropped to a 6.0... I have got to get this figured out. What else can I do?


Perhaps taking a step back is the best approach. Is it possible you're simply dosing too much? Perhaps you should revisit your DIY solution for something that can be dialed in more precisely.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Mark Basil Jr. said:


> Perhaps taking a step back is the best approach. Is it possible you're simply dosing too much? Perhaps you should revisit your DIY solution for something that can be dialed in more precisely.


I use 200g of citric acid. 600ml of water 
Bottle 2 I use 200g sodium bicarbonate and 200g of water... Just asost others do

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Alright Guys... I'm just completely pissed off. I do not know what else to do with the CO2 system. I put up a 1 gallon tank with CO2 in it. Within 1 hour, the pH is dropped to a 6.0... I have got to get this figured out. What else can I do?


I thought you expected this to happen. That was the reason to start Co2 without fish. Now you need to experiment with substances that will maintain the ph and kh long term. Substance with slow dilution are shells, dolomite gravel, and calcium carbonate. My favorite is calcium carbonate.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I thought you expected this to happen. That was the reason to start Co2 without fish. Now you need to experiment with substances that will maintain the ph and kh long term. Substance with slow dilution are shells, dolomite gravel, and calcium carbonate. My favorite is calcium carbonate.


I did expect it to. I was just hoping it wouldn't. 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Would sea shells like this be okay? Amazon Link


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Substance with slow dilution are shells, dolomite gravel, and calcium carbonate. My favorite is calcium carbonate.


I added 5 grams last Friday I figured that would help. 


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When you add CO2 to the water, the pH will always go down, whatever the KH is. If you increase the amount of CO2 by a factor of 10, from 2 ppm to 20 ppm, for example, the pH will always drop by 1.0, from 7 to 6, for example. The water is never buffered against pH changes from adding CO2 (or degassing the CO2), unless you add a buffering solution that is effective against CO2, not a buffering solution which contains CO2. If you added sulphuric acid, H2SO4 and potassium bisulphate, KHSO4, to the water in the right proportions, it could stabilize the pH against additions of CO2, as could a properly proportioned mix of phosphoric acid and potassium diphosphate dibasic, but it would also almost surely kill all of the fish in the tank!

We just have to live with the pH changes that occur when we use CO2 in our tanks. Fortunately, the plants love living with it, and the fish tolerate it very well.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> pissed off.
> 
> I put up a 1 gallon tank with CO2 in it.
> 
> Within 1 hour, the pH is dropped to a 6.0...


1st was the water in the 1 gallon from your tank with additional compounds to raise KH?

2nd If you remove the CO2 does the pH come back up?
This is key to ensure water still has buffering capacity.

Water from my high tech tank when de-gassed goes right back to the original pH.
I also don't recall the KH ever changing de-gassed or not.

If the water was a pH of 7.6 and you are dropping to 6.0 then
(7.6-6.0)*30=48ppm of CO2.
Can you slow down BPS? Maybe target 20-25ppm of CO2?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> 1st was the water in the 1 gallon from your tank with additional compounds to raise KH?
> 
> 2nd If you remove the CO2 does the pH come back up?
> This is key to ensure water still has buffering capacity.
> ...


You make a very good point. This was tap water that I tested this against in the 1 gallon. 

Perhaps I should try from my tank water. Also, in order for it to degas. There has to be movement in the water from the filter or something correct? If so this could also be why it just dropped. 

So, let me try a test sample of my tank water that's been conditioned and everything. The only thing I have to be able to use for aeration would be an airstone. Will this be okay? 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> 1st was the water in the 1 gallon from your tank with additional compounds to raise KH?
> 
> 2nd If you remove the CO2 does the pH come back up?
> This is key to ensure water still has buffering capacity.
> ...


I think the ppm of CO2 is about 3 x 10^change in pH, or for a 1.6 drop in pH the ppm of CO2 would be 3 x 10^1.6, or 3 x 40 = 120 ppm.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Perhaps I should try from my tank water. Also, in order for it to degas. There has to be movement in the water from the filter or something correct?
> 
> So, let me try a test sample of my tank water that's been conditioned and everything. The only thing I have to be able to use for aeration would be an airstone. Will this be okay?


A 1 gallon WC would take care of this.

I run a solo cup half full 30 minutes with an airstone.
You can try longer but 30 minutes seems to de-gas all CO2.



Hoppy said:


> I think the ppm of CO2 is about 3 x 10^change in pH, or for a 1.6 drop in pH the ppm of CO2 would be 3 x 10^1.6, or 3 x 40 = 120 ppm.


If this compounded exponentially I reckon I would have killed many fish by now.
I honestly do not know for sure. Something to investigate.

I am not trying to use the math behind the charts which is 3*KH*10^(7-pH)
That is only partially accurate with unmodified water.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> A 1 gallon WC would take care of this.
> 
> I run a solo cup half full 30 minutes with an airstone.
> You can try longer but 30 minutes seems to de-gas all CO2.


One gallon waterchange takes care of what exactly? 

So you want me to do a solo cup half full of my tank water, with air stone see what happens to ph? 


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Your 1 gallon WC gives you some tank water to test CO2 in your 1 gallon test tank.

Test before and after you gas the refreshed 1 gallon test tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> We just have to live with the pH changes that occur when we use CO2 in our tanks. Fortunately, the plants love living with it, and the fish tolerate it very well.


She has been loosing fish though.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Your 1 gallon WC gives you some tank water to test CO2 in your 1 gallon test tank.
> 
> Test before and after you gas the refreshed 1 gallon test tank.


Ok. Good. I'm glad i went ahead and did what I did. 

at 7:00pm central time i tested the water about 15 hours after i turned the co2 off (no airstone or filter) the ph raised to a 6.4. I put an airstone in still with co2 off, raised ph to a 7.0.

Now, I'm going to do a WC, test, then an hour later test again with co2 on. I'll get back with my results on this one.



Hilde said:


> She has been loosing fish though.


He.. lol :laugh2:


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Ok so. Did a WC with my tank water to the 1 gallon. PH was a 7.4. An hour later. PH. Was a 6.6.

Co2 is now. Off for the night. I will test on the am. Then turn the airstone on and test when I get home. Then test another time with Co2 and airstone on

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Just a thought.

Will driftwood help me out at all?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So I got home today. PH was a 6.6. Turned the airstone on for an hour, it is still 6.6 IL gonna leave it for about about her hour or two and test again 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Alrighty Guys, here's a recap of today.

NOTE: Last night I ended with a pH of 7.4 after a waterchange and adding tank water to the 1G tank.

Arrived home(3pm CST), the pH is a 6.6, no CO2 or air stone running. Turned the air stone on and started checking at the one hour interval(5:00pm CST), the pH is still at a 6.6. Checked at the two hour interval(7:00pm CST), pH was a 7.0. Checked at the three hour interval(8:00pm CST), pH is up to a 7.4.

So, the good new is. With Co2 off, running an air stone it brings the pH back up. I'm currently running CO2 and air stone at the same time now(I know, most if not all say it just defeats the purpose) to see what happens. I'm currently feeling like a scientist with these experiments. LOOL.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Ph is 7.6 so when injecting Co2. The pH tanks. Turn Co2 off with the airstone on, ph neutralizes. 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You can never inject a significant amount of CO2 into water without the pH dropping. CO2 that is dissolved in water always has a small portion of the CO2 in the form of carbonic acid, which drops the pH. That change in pH has no adverse effect on the occupants of an aquarium, but if you inject too much CO2 the CO2 itself will harm the fish, not the pH change.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> You can never inject a significant amount of CO2 into water without the pH dropping. CO2 that is dissolved in water always has a small portion of the CO2 in the form of carbonic acid, which drops the pH. That change in pH has no adverse effect on the occupants of an aquarium, but if you inject too much CO2 the CO2 itself will harm the fish, not the pH change.


Hoppy, I get that. I'm just so confused why I am having such a hard time this go around with this. I know it's different from the sugar yeast and water days, but I didn't think it would be this much work to try and find a stabilization. 

So, my next question is... If I inject Co2 from about 7.30am until 5:00pm my ph will drop to a 6 I know. Then just turning the airstone one from like 6pm or even 7:30pm until 7:30am the next morning to bring the pH back up. Would this be acceptable? 

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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes, that would be acceptable. The only thing I question is whether you get a 7.6 pH with no CO2, and 6.0 pH with CO2. If you do, you may have as high as 120 ppm of CO2, which is too high for the fish, by quite a bit.

If you forget about the tank water pH and just use a simple drop checker, with 4 dKH standard water in it, you should be able to adjust the CO2 bubble rate so you end up with a yellowish green color of the drop checker, meaning you have around 30 ppm of CO2, and definitely don't have nearly 120 ppm. The tank water pH doesn't change rapidly, nor by a significant amount unless you are adding too much CO2 or have something leaching lots of acidic compounds into the water (and I don't know what that could possibly be). This doesn't need to be a complicated part of keeping a healthy aquarium.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Today readings









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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> If you forget about the tank water pH and just use a simple drop checker, with 4 dKH standard water in it, you should be able to adjust the CO2 bubble rate so you end up with a yellowish green color of the drop checker, meaning you have around 30 ppm of CO2, and definitely don't have nearly 120 ppm. The tank water pH doesn't change rapidly, nor by a significant amount unless you are adding too much CO2 or have something leaching lots of acidic compounds into the water (and I don't know what that could possibly be).


Correct. So if this is the case, 1BPS is too much for the aquarium for it dropping my pH so quickly correct?



Hoppy said:


> This doesn't need to be a complicated part of keeping a healthy aquarium.


I agree. This gives me a migraine... Though I really like my aquarium and want it to be successful. I've just never had so many issues until this time around.


It sounds like I should 1)Look into purchasing a solenoid(though what kind that would be who knows), and 2)purchase a drop checker.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> You can never inject a significant amount of CO2 into water without the pH dropping. CO2 that is dissolved in water always has a small portion of the CO2 in the form of carbonic acid, which drops the pH. That change in pH has no adverse effect on the occupants of an aquarium, but if you inject too much CO2 the CO2 itself will harm the fish, not the pH change.


You always help me learn more hoppy.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm currently trying to adjust the Co2 output to stay constant at a 3 to 5 BPS. Unfortunately it just keeps slowing down or stopping. Ugh. Perhaps the needle valve is not good enough not sure 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm currently trying to adjust the Co2 output to stay constant at a 3 to 5 BPS. Unfortunately it just keeps slowing down or stopping. Ugh. Perhaps the needle valve is not good enough not sure


Compare you mixture to Jrills


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Compare you mixture to Jrills



what will using 250ml or 249g vs 200g do? and the same for the baking soda. whats the 100ml instead of 200 going to do? also, do i keep the same for the water? 600 for citric acid solution and 200 for the baking soda solution?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm currently trying to adjust the Co2 output to stay constant at a 3 to 5 BPS.


Should maybe target .5BPS / 1 bubble per 2 seconds???

Yes I have read where others use air during lights off.
This would be just fine.
One could even run air and CO2 into a reactor at the same time.
It's not like the water is fully saturated with either gas.
Solenoid with a 3way valve could be used.
When powered CO2 port is operational when off AIR port is operational.
$3.99 HD timer could run such.

pH change of 1 to 1.5 is not hard on fish.
Your water quality and alkalinity has really not changed, just altered a bit.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> what will using 250ml or 249g vs 200g do? and the same for the baking soda. whats the 100ml instead of 200 going to do? also, do i keep the same for the water? 600 for citric acid solution and 200 for the baking soda solution?


Ask Jrill


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Should maybe target .5BPS / 1 bubble per 2 seconds???
> 
> Yes I have read where others use air during lights off.
> This would be just fine.
> ...


i figured .5bps would still be too much and tank the ph still.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> what will using 250ml or 249g vs 200g do? and the same for the baking soda. whats the 100ml instead of 200 going to do? also, do i keep the same for the water? 600 for citric acid solution and 200 for the baking soda solution?


@jrill ;can you provide your input?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

i also have my kh up to a 9dkH...i had to use sodium bicarbonate to do so. calcium carbonate was not raising it.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

This is a great hobby, keeps one's mind on the sharp side.
A chemistry project, science project, lighting spectrum project, (plant, fish and invert) survival mission etc...


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> This is a great hobby, keeps one's mind on the sharp side.
> A chemistry project, science project, lighting spectrum project, (plant, fish and invert) survival mission etc...


very much so indeed. wish i paid more attention in science class. lol


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Maryland Guppy said:


> This is a great hobby, keeps one's mind on the sharp side.
> A chemistry project, science project, lighting spectrum project, (plant, fish and invert) survival mission etc...


I retired over 20 years ago, and soon missed the mental challenges of the work I was doing (not the politics). One day after I learned to "get on the internet" I stumbled across a website where a man described the wide open field for DIY science that existed in the planted tank hobby. That was what got me so intrigued I soon bought a used 125 gallon tank, and I have been applying my experience and education in that wide open field ever since! It remains fascinating, and I still don't understand over half of it! I was very fortunate to read some of Tom Barr's writings back about 10-15 years ago or I would be even more confused. It is indeed a great hobby!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> i figured .5bps would still be too much and tank the ph still.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> @jrill ;can you provide your input?


send him a pm. There is a precision needle valve that may work better. I just got it. I will be setting Co2 system next weekend.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> send him a pm. There is a precision needle valve that may work better. I just got it. I will be setting Co2 system next weekend.



just purchased that needle valve. we sha'l try again on tuesday to see if that works.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

so, today i installed the new [strike]regulator[/strike] needle valve and i do have a more consistent flow and it seems i have more control over the bubble rate.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Seems like you are on the up side of things now.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Seems like you are on the up side of things now.


i sure hope so. the CO2 has been running for almost two hours at roughly 1 bubble per 2 seconds. pH is sitting at a 7.2. from a 7.6....fingers crossed.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> so, today i installed the new regulator and i do have a more consistant flow and it seems i have more control over the bubble rate.


I thought you were putting a new needle valve on the system. Did I miss something?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I thought you were putting a new needle valve on the system. Did I miss something?


You're correct. I misspoke. It's the needle valve that I replaced, not the regulator

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

My canister filter arrived this morning. I will be installing it this evening. I think I'm going to run it for a month while leaving the HOB filter running as well. That should be fine I think, correct?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Ummm... I just arrived home to see that my DIY solution for CO2 is empty. Ugh. (Citric Acid all in the baking soda solution) and no longer working.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> You're correct. I misspoke. It's the needle valve that I replaced, not the regulator


Glad to hear that it is working better than the other 1. They look the same, thus I was not positive that the copper 1 would work better.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> Ummm... I just arrived home to see that my DIY solution for CO2 is empty. Ugh. (Citric Acid all in the baking soda solution) and no longer working.


Check for leaks after you fill it up. Use something that creates bubbles like kids bubble soap and check the connections to the bottle. That is where my leak was.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Glad to hear that it is working better than the other 1. They look the same, thus I was not positive that the copper 1 would work better.
> 
> Bump:
> Check for leaks after you fill it up. Use something that creates bubbles like kids bubble soap and check the connections to the bottle. That is where my leak was.


I will have to do that this weeken and see what I find

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Todays parameter readings. 










I am dosing Thrive 2x week.

Installed canister filter yesterday 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I am having a weird experience now. I started CO2 back into the tank this morning. I am injecting 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds. I have been doing it for about 10 hours now. My ph is stable at 7.4 with a kH of 8. I'm so confused. It's not tanking. Lol 😁 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I am having a weird experience now. I started CO2 back into the tank this morning. I am injecting 1 bubble per 2-2.5 seconds. I have been doing it for about 10 hours now. My ph is stable at 7.4 with a kH of 8. I'm so confused.


Very Soft 0 - 4° dGH
Soft 4 - 8° dGH
Medium Hard 8-12° dGH

I think you are worrying about nothing.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Very Soft 0 - 4° dGH
> Soft 4 - 8° dGH
> Medium Hard 8-12° dGH
> 
> I think you are worrying about nothing.


You really think so? 

So with a ph of 7.4 and a kH of 8, that makes my Co2 9.6ppm, correct? 

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
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--------------------------------------------------------


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So with a ph of 7.4 and a kH of 8, that makes my Co2 9.6ppm, correct?


Yeh around that. Optimum Co2 is 20 - 30 ppm. You may not need that much. Why don't you ask Jrill how much co2 he gets. For I had read that DIY Co2 will not give you the amount of Co2 you get from a pressurized tank system.

Is that what you meant by tanking?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Yeh around that. Optimum Co2 is 20 - 30 ppm. You may not need that much. Why don't you ask Jrill how much co2 he gets. For I had read that DIY Co2 will not give you the amount of Co2 you get from a pressurized tank system.
> 
> Is that what you meant by tanking?


 @jrill
What kind of ppm of Co2 should I expect with the diy system?

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> @jrill
> What kind of ppm of Co2 should I expect with the diy system?


Why don't you post the question on the Citric Co2 thread

I meant for you to send a pm to Jrill.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Why don't you post the question on the Citric Co2 thread
> 
> I meant for you to send a pm to Jrill.


I'm doing my best to keep it all documented in one place on case of future use and other hobbyists experience the same issue. I'll go ahead and post it there too. 

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
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--------------------------------------------------------


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm doing my best to keep it all documented in one place on case of future use and other hobbyists experience the same issue. I'll go ahead and post it there too.


That is good to do. I have 3 thread concerning parts of my Co2 system. I have had to make a document to keep up with the comments.

On the citric co2 thread I haven't read any mention of how much Co2 they are getting. 

I think the Rhinox Spio III diffuser would dissolve more Co2 than the 4-in-1 diffuser, which you mentioned at the Citric Co2 thread. I got it on evilbay for 4.17.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> That is good to do. I have 3 thread concerning parts of my Co2 system. I have had to make a document to keep up with the comments.
> 
> On the citric co2 thread I haven't read any mention of how much Co2 they are getting.
> 
> I think the Rhinox Spio III diffuser would dissolve more Co2 than the 4-in-1 diffuser, which you mentioned at the Citric Co2 thread. I got it on evilbay for 4.17.


I'll have to look it up

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Here I read you said,"If I run it at 1bps, previously it tanks my ph. Afraid to do it because it's now in the main tank and 2 to 2.5 its been good. But in the big tank I'm not seeing any ph drops. 

So you are worried about you ph going to 6.4? That is okay. I was wrong about you problem being low ph. The problem was too much Co2 for the fish to tolerate. The needle valve must been malfunctioning.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> So you are worried about you ph going to 6.4? That is okay. I was wrong about you problem being low ph. The problem was too much Co2 for the fish to tolerate. The needle valve must been malfunctioning.


Yes, I am worried about my pH dropping back down to a 6.4 or even a 6.0 for that matter(like it had done previously). I also know part of the problem was the tank not being cycled, because now, I'm not getting much ammonia and no nitrite readings which is great. So perhaps that added to the issue at hand as well.

However, if I start injecting about 1bps and the pH drops to a 6.4 with my kH being a 7 currently that'll make my CO2 be around 83ppm. To me, that is bad. Also, if it drops to a 6.0(as it has in the past) with a kH reading of 7 it'll be around 210ppm, again which to me is terrible! Unless the pH does drop the kH as the pH drops, then i fear I'm at risk of poisoning the fish again (if that's what your saying was causing the fish to go belly up).


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

How are the plants doing? Do they appear to need more Co2?

Personally I don't like to go my numbers for nothing is written in stone when it comes to nature. I prefer to dose according how the plants and fish are doing.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> How are the plants doing? Do they appear to need more Co2?
> 
> Personally I don't like to go my numbers for nothing is written in stone when it comes to nature. I prefer to dose according how the plants and fish are doing.


Well, I agree. I also don't think the plants are doing the best they can. However, that being said CO2 has only been going for around 36 or so hours.

Hornwort


More Hornwort


Anubias


Ludwigia Repens


More Ludwigia Repens


Moneywort


Jungle Vals


Lobelia Cardinalis


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> That is good to do. I have 3 thread concerning parts of my Co2 system. I have had to make a document to keep up with the comments.
> 
> On the citric co2 thread I haven't read any mention of how much Co2 they are getting.
> 
> I think the Rhinox Spio III diffuser would dissolve more Co2 than the 4-in-1 diffuser, which you mentioned at the Citric Co2 thread. I got it on evilbay for 4.17.


Dang! This is expensive. They are wanting 50 bucks for it on amazon and [Ebay]


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Dang! This is expensive. They are wanting 50 bucks for it on amazon and [Ebay]


Are you saying the Rhinox Spio III is $50?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Are you saying the Rhinox Spio III is $50?


$25.69 on evilbay.
$59.99 on amazon.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Well, I agree. I also don't think the plants are doing the best they can. However, that being said CO2 has only been going for around 36 or so hours.
> 
> More Ludwigia Repens


All of the plants look good. The Ludwigia Repens looks a little under the weather. It will probably get more brighter colors in time.

Bump:


mcdanielnc89 said:


> $25.69 on evilbay.
> $59.99 on amazon.


I will pm you the link for I only paid $4.12. I did search on Evilbay for CO2 Diffuser Glass w Reactor


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> So you are worried about you ph going to 6.4? That is okay. I was wrong about you problem being low ph. The problem was too much Co2 for the fish to tolerate. The needle valve must been malfunctioning.


So, say it does drop my ph. By 1 degree. The swing in ph by one degree back and forth won't hurt anything? 



Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
--------------------------------------------------------
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-----------------------------------------------------------


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So, say it does drop my ph. By 1 degree. The swing in ph by one degree back and forth won't hurt anything?


Hoppy said, "If you increase the amount of CO2 by a factor of 10, from 2 ppm to 20 ppm, for example, the pH will always drop by 1.0, from 7 to 6, for example." Also at post #215 Hoppy said," You can never inject a significant amount of CO2 into water without the pH dropping. 

Hoppy is very knowledgeable. I am still learning about Co2. A slight drop will not hurt the fish. In nature nothing is stable 24/7.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So, say it does drop my ph. By 1 degree. The swing in ph by one degree back and forth won't hurt anything?


No this is typical for all injected CO2 applications.
The problem is only when the pH doesn't bounce back.
Every 1 degree of pH can be interpreted as 30ppm of CO2.
Not exact science but close enough.

I thought that was where you started with permanent loss of pH?

I run 24/7 sugar&yeast through a reactor in outflow of a canister.
Modified recipe so I don't kill everything, easily can get a 2.0 pH drop.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> No this is typical for all injected CO2 applications.
> The problem is only when the pH doesn't bounce back.
> Every 1 degree of pH can be interpreted as 30ppm of CO2.
> Not exact science but close enough.
> ...


Correct. I was dropping from about a 7.6 to an easy 6.0 when I started. However, I'm running 1 bubble per 1.5 seconds now(was doing 1 per 2-2.5 seconds) and still am not seeing adrop in ph currently. I'm slowly trying to figure out what it can hold so that I don't > 30ppm into the tank and hurt the fish again. I may need to go down to 1bps or so, but I don't want to do that until i get a solenoid and timer so that i can make sure co2 runs only at a certain time, then bubble wall through the night to raise the pH back up.



Hilde said:


> Hoppy said, "If you increase the amount of CO2 by a factor of 10, from 2 ppm to 20 ppm, for example, the pH will always drop by 1.0, from 7 to 6, for example." Also at post #215 Hoppy said," You can never inject a significant amount of CO2 into water without the pH dropping.
> 
> Hoppy is very knowledgeable. I am still learning about Co2. A slight drop will not hurt the fish. In nature nothing is stable 24/7.


I will keep this in mind.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

A drop in pH by 2.0 due to CO2 means an increase in dissolved CO2 by a factor of 100, which is 10 squared! If you start out with 2 ppm of CO2 and raise it by 100X, you get 200 ppm of CO2, good for killing all of the fish in the tank. About the biggest drop in pH that you can use without serious fish problems is 1.2 or possibly 1.3, if you have really outstanding saturation of the tank water with oxygen.

The good news is that for tanks, with no more than 40-50 PAR light intensity, can get most of the benefit of CO2 with only about 20 ppm or even less. That's about a 0.8 drop in pH.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Hoppy I have read comments by you about dosing buffers for Co2. There is a mention of 2 different types in the past. Thus wondering if now you dose a buffer when injecting Co2?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Hilde said:


> Hoppy I have read comments by you about dosing buffers for Co2. There is a mention of 2 different types in the past. Thus wondering if now you dose a buffer when injecting Co2?


I have no idea what that was?? The pH buffer in a planted tank is the combination of bicarbonate (KH) and carbonic acid (CO2).


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Here thread on diy buffer using Monobasic Sodium Phosphate and Dibasic Sodium Phosphate. Plus. You made a buffer with baking soda and 10% sulfuric acid. Was wondering if you still used a ph buffer?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Hilde said:


> Here thread on diy buffer using Monobasic Sodium Phosphate and Dibasic Sodium Phosphate. Plus. You made a buffer with baking soda and 10% sulfuric acid. Was wondering if you still used a ph buffer?


No, I didn't say I tried either buffer, just that those would both be buffers. I have no idea at what pH either one would buffer a solution. I do know that both would be very undesirable for an aquarium.

EDIT: I rechecked - that link is way back when I was doing a lot of experimenting. I don't even remember what I was doing at that time.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> No, I didn't say I tried either buffer, just that those would both be buffers. I have no idea at what pH either one would buffer a solution. I do know that both would be very undesirable for an aquarium.
> 
> EDIT: I rechecked - that link is way back when I was doing a lot of experimenting. I don't even remember what I was doing at that time.


Thanks for clarifying that. I came across the info googling buffers for Co2.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So my concern now is my ph is remaining stable at around 7.4 with a kH of 7 while injecting Co2 at 1bps. The complete opposite that was happening with the original start of this thread. I'm so confused all 

Thanks, 
Mcdanielnc89
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So my concern now is my ph is remaining stable at around 7.4 with a kH of 7 while injecting Co2 at 1bps. The complete opposite that was happening with the original start of this thread. I'm so confused all


When the tank ages it becomes more stable. When you change your water are you still using Seachem Stability?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> When the tank ages it becomes more stable. When you change your water are you still using Seachem Stability?


Yes. Weekly waterchange. I just started injecting CO2 back into the tank this past weekend though, so I have not dosed with stability because that will not happen until Friday. 

I did dose with baking soda about a week ago though 5grams. That's how I got my kh to raise the calcium carbonate was not raising it at all 

Thanks, 
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I did dose with baking soda about a week ago though 5grams. That's how I got my kh to raise the calcium carbonate was not raising it at all


Glad you have learned how to tweek it. 

I have read that many use Dolomite. It did not work for me.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Here are my latest readings. Still trying to figure out why Co2 isn't staying in the tank now. I put a canister filter in diffuser was near the intake. I moved it this. Time around. We shall see what happens 



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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Also... The new needle valve is not any better than the one that came with the system. I'm still having to adjust the thing every few hours or. So. 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Still trying to figure out why Co2 isn't staying in the tank now.


This is confusing. How are you measuring the Co2? Was it working in the test tank? If you are going by the Co2 chart I wondering if doing a water change with distilled water would show you have Co2 in the tank. Are the plants showing signs, fast growth or color change, of absorbing Co2? For it is possible you have Co2 and just not measuring it properly.



mcdanielnc89 said:


> Also... The new needle valve is not any better than the one that came with the system. I'm still having to adjust the thing every few hours or. So..


Jrill is using a Fabco NV-55-18

Did you buy the UP aqua needle valve on amazon?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> This is confusing. Was it working the test tank?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Before the new needle valve, it was dropping ph to a 6. The new needle valve is like it's doing nothing. I'm adjusting it ever couple. Of hours. Pretty sure about dome with the citric acid and baking soda. Gonna go back to the yeast sugar and water I think. 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Measuring Co2 by ph and kh 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> The new needle valve is like it's doing nothing.


You mean you can not keep the bps constant?

Did you buy it on Evilbay or Amazon? For if amazon it is easy to return.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> bump
> 
> Bump:
> You mean you can not keep the bps constant?
> ...


Amazon. I've already created a return label for it. 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I was going to setup Co2 system tomorrow with the UP Aqua needle valve. Now I am afraid to put it in my main tank with the fish. I think I will set it up in a 10g with just plants. I am using with a regulator so it may work different for me.

What was the most bps you got with the needle valve?

So you are going back to the yeast 24/7 system. I could not do it because of the brewer smell from it. Do you smell it?

Have you tried the needle valves sold at Home Depot?


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## Fyshfur (Sep 13, 2016)

I just finished reading this entire thread. Educational, interesting too. I noted OP asked about used driftwood and there didn't seem to be an answer given for that one. But it won't help with any of the issues you've been having. Over time, wood softens water slightly and makes it more acidic as it leaches tannins ( tannic acid) into water, so you should steer clear of it.

I see Hilde mentions Seachem Stability often, but I am unsure for what reason. Stability is supposed to help maintain the biofilter, even establish the biofillter, but does nothing to GH or KH or PH. Seachem makes a few products that do affect water hardness and buffering capacity, and in deference to Hoppy, I use the term 'buffering' loosely . Equilibrium is one of them, but it's expensive to use. Will raise GH reliably though.

I have no idea what sort of budget mcdaniel may have, but if it's possible, buying a CO2 system based on a good quality regulator/needle valve and pressurized CO2 tank would make it easier to manage. It 's also the cheapest method over the longer term, because everything except the gas itself is a one time purchase ( or hopefully one time only ). One gets the tank refilled for a fee when it runs out. Makes keeping the bubble count regular much easier. I wonder if you mightn't find a drop checker of some use ? They work by interacting with tank water, and by the colour of the fluid in the checker, you can monitor CO levels. They use bromothymol blue, same as is used in many PH test kits and that has to be replaced now and then.

Wishing you success, I can easily understand the frustration factor you've been experiencing.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Fyshfur said:


> I see Hilde mentions Seachem Stability often, but I am unsure for what reason.


Because It is the product he was using after doing water changes from the beginning.


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## Fyshfur (Sep 13, 2016)

Ah, I see. thanks.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I was going to setup Co2 system tomorrow with the UP Aqua needle valve. Now I am afraid to put it in my main tank with the fish. I think I will set it up in a 10g with just plants. I am using with a regulator so it may work different for me.
> 
> What was the most bps you got with the needle valve?
> 
> ...


I could get it to produce several bubbles per second, but it slows down. So like, I'll get it to 1bps, then an hour later I'm adjusting it until it doesn't do anything else. I'm wondering if it's the diffuser that I have. I'm awaiting the arrival of the new one I purchased from evilbay. 

If I don't get this work work after the fact, I'm going to switch back to the yeast sugar and water method and try that again. It does smell like a brewery, but I can tolerate that.

I have not tried the needle valves that are sold at home depot.



Fyshfur said:


> I just finished reading this entire thread. Educational, interesting too. I noted OP asked about used driftwood and there didn't seem to be an answer given for that one. But it won't help with any of the issues you've been having. Over time, wood softens water slightly and makes it more acidic as it leaches tannins ( tannic acid) into water, so you should steer clear of it.
> 
> I see Hilde mentions Seachem Stability often, but I am unsure for what reason. Stability is supposed to help maintain the biofilter, even establish the biofillter, but does nothing to GH or KH or PH. Seachem makes a few products that do affect water hardness and buffering capacity, and in deference to Hoppy, I use the term 'buffering' loosely . Equilibrium is one of them, but it's expensive to use. Will raise GH reliably though.
> 
> ...


Budget is not a problem for me. It's just trying to do the cheapest route possible and it's not turning out to be cheap currently. lol. I have been researching Co2 systems pressurized and believe this is the route i will go at the last resort. so we shall see. I like testing things as this is one hobby i do enjoy. 



Hilde said:


> Because It is the product he was using after doing water changes from the beginning.


I dose with stability for water changes and when adding new fish.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I could get it to produce several bubbles per second, but it slows down. So like, I'll get it to 1bps, then an hour later I'm adjusting it until it doesn't do anything else. I'm wondering if it's the diffuser that I have. I'm awaiting the arrival of the new one I purchased from evilbay.
> 
> Budget is not a problem for me. It's just trying to do the cheapest route possible and it's not turning out to be cheap currently. lol. I have been researching Co2 systems pressurized and believe this is the route i will go at the last resort. so we shall see.


The problem is not with you needle valve. If it were the bps would increase. The problem is the pressure is not strong enough. The diffuser could be the problem for different levels of are pressure needed to go through the type of diffuser used. I believe best diffusing method is an inline diffuser to a canister filter and then there are reactors, which I have seen on you tube. The IstaMax reactor tends to leak for the tubes just go on with no couplers to secure the tubes. 

Which diffuser did you get?

This hobby is expensive thus it is wise to cut cost where you can. 

Cost of DIY pressurized systems here. The best built pressurized system is by GLA


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> The problem is not with you needle valve. If it were the bps would increase. The problem is the pressure is not strong enough. The diffuser could be the problem for different levels of are pressure needed to go through the type of diffuser used. I believe best diffusing method is an inline diffuser to a canister filter and then there are reactors, which I have seen on you tube. The IstaMax reactor tends to leak for the tubes just go on with no couplers to secure the tubes.
> 
> Which diffuser did you get?
> 
> ...


I got this one. one very similar to this from evilbay. https://www.co2art.co.uk/products/aquarium-spiral-glass-co2-diffuser


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I think I'm going to cut back on the dosing with thrive. My nitrates seem to stay too high. Could be because I can't get my. Co2 to raise I'm the tank. I'm having the exact opposite that I was initially having. Lol 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I think I'm going to cut back on the dosing with thrive. My nitrates seem to stay too high. Could be because I can't get my. Co2 to raise I'm the tank. I'm having the exact opposite that I was initially having. Lol


Nitrate level has nothing to do with Co2. Thrive has nitrates in it. Only way to get nitrates down is with water changes. It cause inflammation in the fish gills and make them swim wavyly. I had that happen with 1 of my rainbow fish. Dosed with aquarium salt and she has started to swim normally.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

That was worded weirdly, sorry. I didn't mean to say it was because of co2. 

Question. Does the level of co2 help ferts better or worse? Is that something?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> That was worded weirdly, sorry. I didn't mean to say it was because of co2.
> 
> Question. Does the level of co2 help ferts better or worse? Is that something?


I don't about that. Just know when you inject Co2 the plants are less demanding of light perhaps ferts too.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I don't about that. Just know when you inject Co2 the plants are less demanding of light perhaps ferts too.


Perhaps. Just enjoying the hobby trying to get a happy. Medium 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Question. Why do you think my Nitrates aren't going down? I haven't dosed in over a week. 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Question. Why do you think my Nitrates aren't going down? I haven't dosed in over a week.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mcdanielnc89
> ...


Got to have plants that absorb nitrates and do water changes every other day.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I think I'm going to cut back on the dosing with thrive. My nitrates seem to stay too high.


Thrive is an all in one product? I am not sure.
If it is you cannot reduce the amount of KNO3 you are dosing.
Many of us use separate compounds so adjustments can be made if needed.
While not dosing at all other compounds are at a loss, maybe?



mcdanielnc89 said:


> Why do you think my Nitrates aren't going down? I haven't dosed in over a week.


Two reasons maybe to large of a bio-load and/or not enough plants to uptake the nitrates.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Got to have plants that absorb nitrates and do water changes every other day.


So I do have plants in the tank. I have jungle vals, Moneywort, Ludwigia, hornwort, anubias, and just recently added alternanthera reineckkii I believe is what it is called. 

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Mcdanielnc89
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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Thrive is an all in one product? I am not sure.
> If it is you cannot reduce the amount of KNO3 you are dosing.
> Many of us use separate compounds so adjustments can be made if needed.
> While not dosing at all other compounds are at a loss, maybe?
> ...


I agree. The all in one fert I can see not being the best fit because of what I am experiencing. I took the easy way out because I didn't and don't completely understand what compounds need dosed

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Mcdanielnc89
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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> So I do have plants in the tank. I have jungle vals, Moneywort, Ludwigia, hornwort, anubias, and just recently added alternanthera reineckkii I believe is what it is called.


Moneywort, Hornwort are nitrate hogs. Wisteria too! You need more of them.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Moneywort, Hornwort are nitrate hogs. Wisteria too!


My Moneywort are thriving. Hornwort, are looking up. The reineckkii I believe is a Nitrate hog as well. My nitrites are averaging around 80 to 120ppm weekly. So I'm not sure. 

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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> The all in one fert I can see not being the best fit because of what I am experiencing. I took the easy way out because I didn't and don't completely understand what compounds need dosed


You can ask, someone will answer or provide direction, I hope.

K2SO4 Potassium sulfate
KNO3 Potassium nitrate
KH2PO4 Monopotassium phosphate
MgSO4 Magnesium sulfate
CSM+B Plantex or Miller Microplex I think it is called.

I recommend some reading here: https://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/chemicals
I am not pushing PPS-Pro dosing method just good documentation on this site.
It is an easy informative set of the basics.
EI or what ever still the same compounds for the most part.

Hope this helps with the journey!

My tanks with a heavy bio-load have a dosing solution without KNO3 for macros.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> My Moneywort are thriving. Hornwort, are looking up. The reineckkii I believe is a Nitrate hog as well. My nitrites are averaging around 80 to 120ppm weekly. So I'm not sure.
> 
> Thanks,
> Mcdanielnc89
> ...


I am surprised that the high nitrates has not affected your fish or caused algae to grow.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I am surprised that the high nitrates has not affected your fish or caused algae to grow.


You and me both. Lol 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Question I recieved the new diffuser. How the hell do you get water in it. Lool

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Question I recieved the new diffuser. How the hell do you get water in it. Lool
> 
> Thanks,
> Mcdanielnc89
> ...


At Co2Art
Tip: Don't try and fill your diffuser up with water to begin with. It will fill up on its own. In addition, the CO2 bubbles will not travel up the spiral until the water has filled the spiral (this can take a few days).

I would try to add some water to it. How I did it with a bubble counter,which did not have a removable cap, was put it in the water with the holes horizontal.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I don't even see hole. I must be blind

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I don't even see hole. I must be blind
> 
> Thanks,
> Mcdanielnc89
> ...


 For the diffuser it is where the tubing connects. Just put the diffuser horizontal in the tank and perhaps it will fill with water. Believe 3/4 full like with a bubble counter.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> For the diffuser it is where the tubing connects


Ohhh that hole. I'll give that a try

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Mcdanielnc89
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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

So. Here's an update. I installed a new diffuser yesterday. It has started filling up. Maybe an eighth of the way. However, it is working better than my. Old one. I believe my old one just stopped working. With this one. My. PH dropped back down to a 6.4 as you can see from the image. I couldn't get a reading on my kh. Never can when it drops my. PH like this. From the waterchange yesterday I have a. 25 of Ammonia and nitrates went down a bit. So... I'm not sure what to do yet. I shut off the Co2 though I seem to be able to control it now. Who knew. This explains why my plants have thrown so many roots now. 😂 










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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

I have done 50 percent water changes the past three days so I understand why my. Ammonia is up a bit. Thankfully. It is lowering my nitrates. My ph is pretty low, but I've been just using my. Main tank to get the diffuser filled up so opening the needle valve more at intervals so it pushed Co2 into the tank, however my airstone is releasing the Co2 at a stable rate that it isn't affecting the fish. 

I did lose some. Guppies. To the nitrates out of wack, but that was expected. Here are my latest parameters right now. I'm going to dose some sodium bicarbonate later to raise. My kh. 










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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> KH is really not 3 it is basically 0.
> 
> 2 grams of CaCO3 in 20 gallons should be about 2dKH.
> Is it possible to find calcium carbonate in your area.
> I would suggest baking soda, some frown on the sodium content though


How long shoudl it take to raise kH with Calcium Carbonate. I'm basically at 0 again. So I'm thinking of adding 5grams. I know it's not soluble in water, but with my pH at a 6ish i believe it will slowly. I could also use sodium bicarbonate, but i don't wanna harm the plants. Suggestions?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Parameters seem to be fine. Kh, not the best. I have dosed 15 grams of calcium carbonate within the last three weeks. Not sure what's happening there 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Well, I think I'm pleased with my. Parameters. Nitrite isn't going away though any thoughts? I haven't been dosing because of the high nitrites previously 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Well, I think I'm pleased with my. Parameters. Nitrite isn't going away though any thoughts? I haven't been dosing because of the high nitrites previously
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


The pic shows nitrites 0 and nitrates are 10 which is good. thus confused.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> The pic shows nitrites 0 and nitrates are 10 which is good. thus confused.


I'm just a confused person. Lol I mixed them up. Haha 😂 so, do you think I'm okay with continuing dosing

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm just a confused person. Lol I mixed them up. Haha 😂 so, do you think I'm okay with continuing dosing
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Nitrates can go up to 40.

You just had a brain fart. It happens


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

The tank is doing pretty good. I just had to do a trim on the money wort and the ludwigia. Hoping the jacopa will spruce up and grow. I'm injecting Co2, but alas, it isn't staying consistent. I'm having to adjust it quite a bit pretty frequently. Perhaps after the holidays I'll buy into a pressurized system. 

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Except the jungle vals. They are not growing well at all. 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Perhaps after the holidays I'll buy into a pressurized system.


Here is discussed what other have spent on Co2 system. 

I wish I had bought a Co2 system from GLA


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hi guys!!! I thought I would give an update on how things are going. My tank is pretty. Much established. No issues going. On with that. 

I am still messing. With the DIY CO2 method. It's driving me nuts. No constant output still, the needle valve isn't very good. I will fix this with a pressurized system when I feel like spending the money on my tank versus something else. Lol 😁 I'm currently trying to figure out how to keep my red plants red. I'm going to stop using the 247 mode. On my light during the day and keep it. Full with roughly 60par reading. And also dose a. Little iron. 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm currently trying to figure out how to keep my red plants red.


Lights are the engine. Thus I wonder if you added LED RGB 3528 strip and made the red leds the strongest if it would help bring the red pigments out. Tis 1 of my future projects. They are quite cheap on evilbay.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Lights are the engine. Thus I wonder if you added LED RGB 3528 strip and made the red leds the strongest if it would help bring the red pigments out. Tis 1 of my future projects. They are quite cheap on evilbay.



To help bring out the color of the plants, I've purchased some iron chelate from greenleafaquariums. How much should be dosing for that? I'm also thinking about switching to dry ferts rather than use thricve by nilocg, because im unsure if it's working.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Here is discussed what other have spent on Co2 system.
> 
> I wish I had bought a Co2 system from GLA


Well, I received a pressurized CO2 system from my partner for Christmas!!! (I have the best partner :wink2

I'll be setting it up within the next few weeks. Even though I finally was able to establish a good system with the DIY situation, I feel having a better flow of things will be great! I know things have been going well plant wise as I have been able to trim my plants the last month or so and earn some money back by selling plants to help me out with my hobby. I'm happy to say I finally have an "Aquatic Fund" that I'm able to sustain when purchasing more things for this wonderful hobby!

I did recently choose to get out of raising Guppy's and have gone to more of a tetra tank. I now house Neons, Candy Cane's, and Penguin tetra's in addition to an angel fish, and Cory Cats, with of ourse my cherry shrimp!

Although this has been a rough few months figuring all of this out to find a happy medium, it has been well worth it!

Oh, also. my CO2 kit is from Co2 Art!!!! :laugh2::laugh2::laugh2:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I have been able to trim my plants the last month or so and earn some money back by selling plants to help me out with my hobby. I'm happy to say I finally have an "Aquatic Fund" that I'm able to sustain when purchasing more things for this wonderful hobby!


I hope I can do that when I get my water parameters balanced and Co2 system up. 

To whom did you sell your plants?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I hope I can do that when I get my water parameters balanced and Co2 system up.
> 
> To whom did you sell your plants?


I'm in a group on Facebook for aquariums. A few ppl wanted them so it was nice.. 

My parameters have been great. Finally doing something right 

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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> I'm in a group on Facebook for aquariums. A few ppl wanted them so it was nice..
> 
> My parameters have been great. Finally doing something right
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Glad that you got your parameters balanced. 

I think I caused water parameters to be low by dosing to much peroxide. 

Would you mind pm me the link to facebook aquarium group?


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Well, a lot has happened since my last update. I started dosing the amount of iron that is in Thrive+ since I am dosing Thrive. I have also stopped using the 24/7 mode on the light that I have and turn high light on from 8am until about 6pm, then use the 24/7 mode until the next morning. This has been improving the color of my plants!(woohooo).

ALSO!!!!! I no longer am using a DIY solution for CO2. I have a pressurized system in place as of yesterday. Everything is doing much better than it was. thank goodness. In fact... I AM PEARLING!!!!(see video below! Also, enjoy some updated pictures that I took!


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

https://vimeo.com/198621027

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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Here are my latest numbers I seem to have everything where I am doing well. I would like to see more growth in the tank, but I'm figuring out how to dose for my tank without raising the nitrates so high with me using liquid ferts. Overall, I am pleased though

.




















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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Here are my latest numbers I seem to have everything where I am doing well. I would like to see more growth in the tank, but I'm figuring out how to dose for my tank without raising the nitrates so high with me using liquid ferts. Overall, I am pleased though
> 
> .
> 
> ...




I think your tank looks great!! I also think that when we start out we start trying to reach the "perfect" parameters for our tanks based on what other great looking tanks parameters are, myself included. Everyone's tanks, tap water, equipment, ect. Are different and require different needs. Types of fish, plants, lighting, co2, on and on. I think as long as things are going well and your levels aren't deadly to your fish or plants then like the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it. 


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

livingf1t said:


> I think your tank looks great!! I also think that when we start out we start trying to reach the "perfect" parameters for our tanks based on what other great looking tanks parameters are, myself included. Everyone's tanks, tap water, equipment, ect. Are different and require different needs. Types of fish, plants, lighting, co2, on and on. I think as long as things are going well and your levels aren't deadly to your fish or plants then like the saying goes, if it ain't broke don't fix it.


Thanks, I appreciate it. I am happy with how it is currently. Just like you said wanting perfection. Unfortunately, that takes time.


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## livingf1t (Dec 7, 2016)

It has taken me a year of messing around with everything to get my tank to where I feel it's good as far as ferts, lighting, co2 and water parameters go. 


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

mcdanielnc89 said:


> Here are my latest numbers I seem to have everything where I am doing well. I would like to see more growth in the tank, but I'm figuring out how to dose for my tank without raising the nitrates so high with me using liquid ferts. Overall, I am pleased though


:drool: 

You could try some Spirulina for it supplies L arginine + Manganese. Something like .5 Tbs may help. ADA Green Gain contains amino acids. I got spirulina on evilbay for $9 plus shipping $0. Green gain is $18 alone.


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## mcdanielnc89 (Jun 15, 2009)

Well, my latest parameters are ideal. Growth is happening in my tank. Yayyyy

I also switched to the Fluval 2.0 lighting system and like it much better. Enjoy some pictures. oh yes.... Also... I am pearling daily!!!!! 😁😁😁😁😁😁😁 The reds are amazingly amazing. Lol 😂😂😂



















https://vimeo.com/200930839










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