# White slime of death...



## mistergreen

you might have the virulent columnaris 
http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/articles/columnaris.html


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## lauraleellbp

Sounds like columnaris to me, too.

Wow, Lauren, you've been having a REALLY rough go recently! :frown:


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## rmc

Just a few questions....... What is your gh and kh? Are the fish new? Where did they come from (not asking for the sellers name, just the general area).


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## Phoenix-cry

I have slightly hard water. Fish came from Thailand, but so did the males and all the males (in their own containers) are very healthy. It is definatly Columnaris, I am treating with tri-sulfa. 

I have suddenly had a TERRIABLE time! I don't really understand. I have clean water, good filtration, good temp. 

I think it all started with the wild caught mac and I believe that each tank got cross contaminated through live plant exchange (never thought the plants would be carriying disease). 

I've learned a lot in the past week (I've never in all my years of fish keeping ever dealt with a serious outbreak), it cost me hundreds of dollars, but now I think I have a good handle on what is going on. The same thing that killed the others is killing these ones...apparently this bacteria can hang in the water for 32 days. 

I just didn't realize that it could break out like this so fast! I didn't see any reason for these new fish to be overly stresses. They were in transport for a while, but they had acclimation and good food for the past few days. They went from healthy to dead or dying within 8 hours!


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## mistergreen

yeah, stress from transport can get them infected. You might want to invest in UV sterilizers for your tanks. It can definitely reduce the risks.


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## Hobbes1911

I lost three tanks to cross contamination. What I now do is have one designated net per tank and no switcharoos ever. Everything can carry pathogens: nets, cleaning magnets, plants, filter/heaters, hands, etc. I would be really careful.


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## cjp999

I also just had an outbreak of columnaris and I'm not too sure where it came from. I had added 4 kuhli loaches about a month before the outbreak. They had been quarantined for two weeks before that, and have never shown any symptoms of columnaris.

I also added a number of plants, snails, and some shrimp I got from AZ Gardens. They also had been quarantined, but only for about 4 days (I mostly just wanted to make sure no ich hitched a ride.

The only other cause I could think of was recently doing a gravel vac of my Aquasoil. The outbreak started within a week of doing this. It had never been cleaned at all (even skimming over) for the year I've had the tank. Maybe this stirred something up. I read somewhere that columnaris is actually in most tanks, living on dead matter. Perhaps my cleaning the tank suddenly put a lot of it in the water column, and it was more than the immune system of some fish could handle.

Fortunately it has not been all that virulent. I have a least a dozen mollies and about 10 other occupants (5 other unrelated species), and only 3 mollies and one angel ever got sick.

It took a while before I figured out what it was even going on. I thought it was just a fungus on two mollies. I moved them to a 5g bucket and added Jungle Fungus clear. This seemed to clear things up (it actually is a recommend treatment for columnaris). During this time the angel sometimes had a small white pimple or blotch, but it came and went, and I figured if it was just fungus, and would go away with clean water.

A few days after I put the two treated mollies back in the main tank they were sick again, and now the angel was acting a bit funny (hiding during the day unless it was feeding time). He probably had had columnaris well over a week by then, but still not showing much more than a small white blotch on his side. However, symptoms on the mollies were more clear this time, one being completely covered in white tufts or gray blotches. At this time I finally realized it was columnaris.

I moved the 2 sick mollies, a 3rd molly that got sick, and the angel to a 10g tank to treat them. This time I used Furan-2 (as is often recommended), and only afterwords found out it has the same ingredients as Jungle Fungus Clear. I also added melafix, although I think pimafix is suppose to be a better choice for columnaris (should arrive in the mail tomorrow). I also decided to treat the main tank, since I figured at least one of the mollies probably had it, and some may have it without showing symptoms.

It's been 5 days since this last round of treatment. No new cases in the main tank. The angel still has the white blotch, although it is very small now. He acts pretty normal. The mollies are clear of while blotches, but show a bit of fin damage, and tend to hide near or behind the HOB filter most of the time. They were also treated with a Potassium Permangenate bath twice a day for the 1st 3 days (but not the angel, he's too big). All are eating well.

I have my doubts that Furan-2 is going to lick this, since my Fungus Clear treatment (same ingredients) may not have completely cleared it up in the treated fish, so I may now have a more resistant strain. I'll continue the current treatment for the full 8 days and then see what happens. If it comes back, I may go the Triple Sulfate route next time.


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## rasetsu

I had this same thing happen about a year ago and wiping out half my tank in a week's time. I feared it was TB at first but I'm pretty sure it's just an extremely fast and virulent columnaris. Columnaris still rears it's ugly head from time to time and I've found that daily 20% water changes until all visible symptoms are gone (usually within 5-7 days) has been the cheapest and most effective way of dealing with it. I have not had very much success with various medications since all require several days of treatment and it seems that constant clean water is a better solution. The meds just waste my money and gives the disease more time to spread.


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## cjp999

I believe keeping your fish happy and healthy (stress free) is the best way to avoid it. So clean water, proper temp, good water flow, good diet, and good tank mates. I think the problem is that once one stressed fish gets sick, then columnaris is so prevalent in the tank that even otherwise healthy fish are susceptible. Makes me think the keeping old somewhat infirm fish is a bad idea.

BTW, lower your temp to about 75. Supposedly below 76 really slows the spread of columnaris. The colder the better, but you don't want to lower to a point that the fish starts to feel stress. So you can go lower than 75 if your fish doesn't mind.


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## rasetsu

cjp999 said:


> BTW, lower your temp to about 75. Supposedly below 76 really slows the spread of columnaris. The colder the better, but you don't want to lower to a point that the fish starts to feel stress. So you can go lower than 75 if your fish doesn't mind.


Yes, lower temps slow the spread of bacterial diseases, but then you end up in the danger zone for ich and other parasites.


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## fishscale

I could not for the life of me figure out how I got columnaris in one of my tanks (no new fish for over a year) until I realized that I had used a net somewhere else. Now I'm paranoid and disinfect everything.


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## lauraleellbp

Potassium permanganate is good also for making net dips.


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## cjp999

fishscale said:


> I could not for the life of me figure out how I got columnaris in one of my tanks (no new fish for over a year) until I realized that I had used a net somewhere else. Now I'm paranoid and disinfect everything.


Somewhere else meaning you used it in a tank that was not one of your own?

Also keep in mind that I believe columnaris can lurk in a tank indefinitely. I've seen this mentioned more than once, but I'm not sure if it is true. I've also seen statements saying that most tank of columnaris. However, I've also seen these same statement said of ich, which is definitely not true.


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## cjp999

lauraleellbp said:


> Potassium permanganate is good also for making net dips.


..and makes a good fish dip (bath) to help cure columaris. The recommend concetration is twice the recommend tank dosing amount, for 30 minutes (in a separate container, not the tank).

Nets are just part of the problem. You also have: aquascaping tools, gravel vacs, buckets, cups, test kit droppers, and your hands! I've pretty much decided not to worry much about it unless I know I have an illness to deal with. I do at least give things a quick rinse in hot water when going between tanks, but that's about it.


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## ezcry4t3d

lauraleellbp said:


> Potassium permanganate is good also for making net dips.


I second this, though I'll note that it has dyed some of my nets and sponges brown or black.



cjp999 said:


> ..and makes a good fish dip (bath) to help cure columaris. The recommend concetration is twice the recommend tank dosing amount, for 30 minutes (in a separate container, not the tank).


I successfully cured a silver molly of columaris using this dip method. It was surprisingly effective (I had pretty much written off the infected fish). It got rid of the columaris very quickly.


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## jaidexl

The dreaded flex. Did you recently kick up the heater in the tank or house? Aquamaniacs had a boom in flex cases in the spring and summer of 2005 when temps shot up, you can read about it in their disease ezine. From that article, "A Flexibacter infection will be more severe if it is due to a sudden rise in temperature and if your fish are in hard, alkaline water."

Poor water quality is usually the culprit, but in times like these, good chance for temp swings. You do not have to wait for another fish to bring it in like a parasite, it is bacterial, always waiting for it's time to shine.

If the stuff you're using doesn't work, use Kanamycin (Kanaplex) or Erythromycin (Maracyn) [correction, maracyn 2. Thnx cjp] in the water column, preferably the former. Feed living, infected fish antibiotic food (preferably treated with Kana) in a hospital tank.


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## jaidexl

rasetsu said:


> it seems that constant clean water is a better solution. The meds just waste my money and gives the disease more time to spread.


True about water quality. Meds can be tricky with strong, resistant bugs like this. That's why it's safer to start with a strong, proven med that hasn't been around for ages. Also, treat the full dose for the recommended time frame, no half way attempts or you can create a bigger monster. If you're going to war, bring out the big guns and have no mercy.


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## cjp999

jaidexl said:


> The dreaded flex. Did you recently kick up the heater in the tank or house? Aquamaniacs had a boom in flex cases in the spring and summer of 2005 when temps shot up, you can read about it in their disease ezine. From that article, "A Flexibacter infection will be more severe if it is due to a sudden rise in temperature and if your fish are in hard, alkaline water."
> 
> Poor water quality is usually the culprit, but in times like these, good chance for temp swings. You do not have to wait for another fish to bring it in like a parasite, it is bacterial, always waiting for it's time to shine.
> 
> If the stuff you're using doesn't work, use Kanamycin (Kanaplex) or Erythromycin (Maracyn) in the water column, preferably the former. Feed living, infected fish antibiotic food (preferably treated with Kana) in a hospital tank.


From what I read, the "poor water quality" reason is somewhat misleading. Poor water quality, like many other things (including the sudden temp rise you mentioned), stresses the fish, leaving it susceptible to infection, so the reason for the onset of columnaris can be more generally described as anything that causes the fish stress or weakens it's immune system.

I was planning on using the Kanamycin / Triple Sulfa combo next if Furan-2 doesn't eliminate it. As for Maracyn, although I often seen it recommended, I also read that this may be incorrect advise. Flexibacter is gram-negative while Maracyn fights gram-positive bacteria. See the following:

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Columnaris.html


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## jaidexl

Yes, sorry, Maracyn 2 for gram -. I don't use them much, when I did I used both together.

When mentioning water quality and temp, it's not an all around cause description, just common factors. Yes, you can probably stress a fish into it in many ways but it's very common to happen in a few ways.


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## fishscale

cjp999 said:


> Somewhere else meaning you used it in a tank that was not one of your own?
> 
> Also keep in mind that I believe columnaris can lurk in a tank indefinitely. I've seen this mentioned more than once, but I'm not sure if it is true. I've also seen statements saying that most tank of columnaris. However, I've also seen these same statement said of ich, which is definitely not true.


Yeah, it was for a friend. He wanted fish at his wedding, and wanted me to set it up for him. When you say indefinitely, you mean if untreated? I hit the tank with a long treatment of Maracyn 2 after that incident. I really hope it's gone. I haven't had any deaths in a long time (well, up until the heater incident).


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## cjp999

fishscale said:


> When you say indefinitely, you mean if untreated? I hit the tank with a long treatment of Maracyn 2 after that incident. I really hope it's gone. I haven't had any deaths in a long time (well, up until the heater incident).


I'm not sure. I would think antibiotics (at least the ones that are affective) would wipe it out from the entire tank. However, I think the point is that the bacteria is so prevalent that you are likely to end up with it in your tank again.

I'm only treating it in the main tank where I first saw it, plus the hospital tank. However, my guess is that I have it in my other tanks also, so it will soon end up in my main tank again. If the conditions are right for an outbreak in the main tank, it will likely happen again. The key is to avoid the conditions that allow columnaris to take hold.


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## cjp999

Although all my fish are acting healthy and the mollies seem to be clear of any signs of columnaris, the angel still has the small mark. Still got another day or two of the Furan-2 to go.

I was going to go with Triple Sulfa for the next round, but thought Maracyn II might be better. However, I just found out that Maracyn II (tetracycline) does not work with pH above 7.5, and mine is 8.1, so I guess Maracyn II is out of the question for me.

Kanamycin is suppose to more effective at high pH, but I can't find any locally, so looks like it will be at least a weak before I can get any.

To add to my complication, I just noticed that my ammonia is now about .20. Looks like the Furan-2 or pimafix killed off the beneficial bacteria. I decided that ammo chips would be a good idea, but did some research first to make sure it's ok to use with meds. What I found out is that it can't be used if you've added salt to the tank, and I added 1tbs per 5g. Crap. Looks like I'll need to pull a filter from another tank to use as a stop gap, and then do a 100% water change when I'm done with the Furan-2 treatment.


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## lauraleellbp

I wouldn't pull a filter over from another tank, you not only will wipe out the N-bacteria in that filter, but you'll have one more filter to completely sterilize when you're done.

I'd just do water changes and replace the meds you pull out with the changes. I generally do 50% water changes to make the math easier on how much med to replace.


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## cjp999

I considered that, but I have plenty of extra filter pads to go around, and they are easy to sterilize in boiling water. I left one in overnight and that took care of the ammonia. I'll pull it out now, rinse it, and let it soak in an "ammonia bath". :smile: If I see the ammonia go up again, hopefully it will be ready for reuse by then.

One problem with water changes and dead n-bacteria is that you don't eliminate the ammonia. You just reduce it by the % of water you change out. So if you start with .25 ammonia, you need 3 water changes to get it below .05, and that assumes no new ammonia is being produced.

Tomorrow my current treatment ends. I'll probably do a 100% water change then, add ammo chips, and watch the fish to see how the progress.


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## cjp999

The filter pad swap worked well. After letting it soak in some ammonia during the day, I rinsed it and put it back in the tank in the evening since the ammonia was up a bit again (maybe .10). It again cleared it overnight. I've since done a 100% water change to remove the salt and am now using ammo chips.


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## jaidexl

I'm not really sure what you're doing, keeping a live cartridge in a bowl of ammonia then putting it in your filter to deal with your ammonia problem? Whatever it is I'm glad it's working for you, but what are your nitrates reaching while you do this? One problem with not doing water changes to combat nitrogen is that it all gets converted to nitrate, which is also toxic at a certain level. Of course it's all fine and dandy if the plants are fast enough for it, but if that's the case then there probably wouldn't be any ammonia to begin with since they like that too. Water changes also get rid of unknowns and balance other parameters. A power head or pump that pushes 6 feet, with a long hose attached makes water changes a breeze. I have never heard anyone come up with reasoning against doing water changes, that just sounds strange to me, no offense. Back to back water changes is nothing new to me and sometimes it has to be done. Your ammonia bath sounds intriguing, though, are you mixing a certain ppm? I was under the impression that too high of an ammonia level will eventually kill the bacteria, too. Where are these before they go in the amm bath, are they coming from another tank, why not keep them in the other tank? Sorry, I'm missing something here and am just trying to understand why you're putting the filter pads in ammonia.


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## cjp999

I didn't want to do a water change because the medication instructions called for one dosing, and then wait 4 days before doing a water change in a second does. I said I was using Furan-2, which calls for daily dosing, but had actually switched to Tank Buddies Fungus Clear (some ingredients as Furan-2), which calls for a dosing every 4 days. I had a couple of days left in this 4 day dosing, and so it was easier to grab another cycled filter pad (and possibly have it get nuked by the medication) then to do a water change. I took the filter pad out after about 8 hours when the ammonia had cleared in hopes this would spare the pad getting wiped out by the medication (actually Pimafix, which I was also dosing) which was killing the n-bacteria, and this seems to have work. I kept it in some water with some ammonia (about 5ppm) during this time to help it recover (not a fish tank). Moving a filter pad from a hospital tank to another tank would be a really bad idea.

As for nitrates, heck, mine are already 40ppm+ out of the tap. If I have any fish that can't tolerate relatively high nitrates, they would have died long ago. Also, given the stocking in the hospital tank, nitrates wouldn't go up by more than a 1-2 ppm per week. Keep in mind with about 16 hours of no ammonia filtration, ammonia only went up to .10ppm, so this implies about 1ppm per week.

As for any other bad stuff accumulating, this tank has had more water changes the past 11 days than I care to count. Other than ammonia at the time (which is now resolved), nothing is accumulating it to levels which may be a concern.


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## webgirl74

A cichlid site I also belong to suggested lots of large water changes and treatment with a combo of Maracyn and Maracyn II. Expensive meds so it is worthwhile to treat in a smaller tank. I caught columnaris in its very early stages and got it cleared up, but it did require continual dosing with water changes in between. One fish looked almost as bad as the pic you posted and it did not recover, but several other fish had symptoms as well and all pulled through. It's very hard to cure, and often has done more damage than can be reversed. Good luck and let us know how you make out.


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## jaidexl

OK, makes sense now. I would've probably used a half a bottle of Prime within those four days, but sounds like you have a method to your madness. Have you ever thought of getting an RO unit for those nitrates? Might take a big weight off your shoulders, I love it.


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## cjp999

jaidexl said:


> OK, makes sense now. I would've probably used a half a bottle of Prime within those four days, but sounds like you have a method to your madness. Have you ever thought of getting an RO unit for those nitrates? Might take a big weight off your shoulders, I love it.


Didn't think of using Prime. I'll consider that next time (actually I have Amquel, which I think will also work).

I've somewhat considered an RO unit, but frankly I don't worry about my nitrates. For most freshwater fish and invertz, levels like I have are no problem, and I just won't bother with anything that may be nitrate sensitive. I don't want to start having to do all my water changes out of water collected from an RO unit.


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## jaidexl

Just be careful about your KH, if it's low then heavy doses of Amquel Plus will crash your pH. Not sure if it's a pH shift that will harm fish but I don't chance it. I only use Prime for heavy emergency type dosing, and AQ+ when I know there's no biofilter in the tank I'm dealing with at the time. All my QT's and hospitals are freshly setup as needed, so no biofilter unless I use an old filter, then there are little betta tanks that get 100% water changes every few days, those get AQ+, too. If you have the old Amquel without the plus, then I don't think KH/pH is an issue, also not an issue for dry, buffered Amquel. 

Prime should be dosed 3 to 5 times over the recommendation to deal with ammonia and nitrogen, and works for about 2 days.


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## cjp999

jaidexl said:


> Just be careful about your KH, if it's low then heavy doses of Amquel Plus will crash your pH.


I have well water. KH is around 10.


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## JtotheS

Has anyone treated Columnaris with Metronidazole? I've used 5 250MG tabs; 125MG over the course of the last 10 days (half pill, basically--I have a 10 Gallon aquarium). 

There are several fish that just can't get rid of it. I did a water change about 3 -4 days ago (probably do another one in 3 or so days), and I haven't seen any new cases, but the old cases haven't cleared up.

I ran out of Metronidazole tonight, and added pimafix and melafix that I had left over last night. Now that I'm out of medicine, and the medicine I did add hasn't been 100 effective, what should I do next? Has anyone been successful with Metronidazole? 

I just lost a guppy this AM.


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## cjp999

Start by putting your guppy in very brackish water. Columnaris can't survive in salt water. I think you want at least 1.003sg. I'm not sure the limit for guppies, but I know mollies can actually go in full marine salinity (1.024sg). I think this will take care of external columnaris infections, but probably not internal.

I've had my mollies in 1.010sg for the past 12 days. They finished a 6 day kanaplex treatment 3 days ago, and finished a 9 day oral nitrofurazone treatment today. I'm about to move them into a tank where I can better observe them (they've been in a 5g bucket). Some of these guys have had it come back twice, so I'm hoping the combination of salt, kanaplex, and nitrofurazone has finally licked it.

I haven't heard that Metronidazole helps with columnaris. I'd suggest you first try all following (those listed on the same line can be done in combination):


kanamycin (kanaplex) + nitrofurazone
maracyn + maracyn II (make sure your pH is below 7.5)
triple sulfa
Also raise the salinity when treating. I'm guessing maracyn II probably isn't going to work in brackish water because of the pH. Maybe you can just try adding regular aquarium salt instead, since I don't think it will affect the pH.

Unless you catch columnaris early, it is likely also an internal infection, so try treating orally. My understanding is that kanamycin is the best (and maybe only) of the above antibiotics to be absorbed by the fish when doing tank treatments.

I read that pimafix might be affective. I'm not sure about using it in combination with any other meds.


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## JtotheS

Thanks for this advise. I think I am going to buy some Triple Sulfa tomorrow. Do folks trust API products? How about the product below?

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4829

Thanks for your help. The thing with salt is, I know plants don't like it. I'm afraid to add salt to the water. I don't have a separate tank to put the guppies.


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## cjp999

I think the API products are fine.

You should really consider removing any fish showing symptoms and treat them separately and aggressively, and possibly still treat the rest of the tank with something like Triple Sulfa. Otherwise you might be fighting this for a long time.

Also, you need to address whatever brought on columnaris. Unless you've added new fish recently, you probably have something causing the fish stress. Any of the following may have been what triggered columaris:


poor water conditions
sudden increase in water temp
sickly (old or frail) fish in the tank already
over crowded
bullying
There are probably others.


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## JtotheS

It's definately in part due to these things:

# over crowded
# bullying

The tank is filled with guppies, and all the boy guppies do is hump the girl guppies. In fact, it's really only the girl guppies who are sick. 

I hope to buy a new, larger tank (29 gallon?) soon. I'm going to separate the girls and the boys.


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## JtotheS

One last question: is Triple Sulfa safe for the planted aquarium?


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## cjp999

JtotheS said:


> One last question: is Triple Sulfa safe for the planted aquarium?


I believe so, but I don't know from experience. I don't recall reading about any antibiotics that are not plant safe. Seems like plant safety is mostly a concern with parasite medications that have copper.

Keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrites once you start treating. Many antibiotics will kill your bio bacteria.


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## JtotheS

Just an update: I have been treating the tank with triple sulfa and it seems that it's improving quite a bit. I've gone through five doses. After the ten doses of triple sulfa are used, I will probably try to make sure it is eradicated by following with another treatment.

I have quarantined three sick fish that seem to have improved, but are still sick. Since I don't have a separate aquarium, I've placed them in a large clear plastic bag and dosed the bag with some extra triple sulfa.

No new cases. Any others that started to get sick, besides the three that are now quarantined (who were really sick before).


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## cjp999

Glad to hear you are making progress. 5g buckets from home depot make good cheap temporary tanks if you want something better than a plastic bag.


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## JtotheS

But without a heater, doesn't ich become an issue?


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## cjp999

JtotheS said:


> But without a heater, doesn't ich become an issue?


Who said anything about ich? Ich does not just spontaneously appear. It needs to be introduced to the tank, and without a host it dies on average in 4 days (depending on temp). Don't believe the old wive's tale that ich is in every tank waiting for the opportunity to strike.


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## JtotheS

Even better. I do have an unused bucket or two around already. The three quarantined fish are looking even better. There's a small one that I'm afraid of still losing, but the other two are full of energy!


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## cjp999

JtotheS said:


> Even better. I do have an unused bucket or two around already. The three quarantined fish are looking even better. There's a small one that I'm afraid of still losing, but the other two are full of energy!


Just don't use a bucket you've had chemicals in.


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## Olskule

cjp999 said:


> ...Also keep in mind that I believe columnaris can lurk in a tank indefinitely. I've seen this mentioned more than once, but I'm not sure if it is true....However, I've also seen these same statement said of ich, which is definitely not true.


Fungus and bacteria, being such extremely primative lifeforms, are naturally better able to survive harsh conditions (such as drying out entirely) and thus be transferred by their viable reproductive cells hitch-hiking for long periods of time to reach another environment condusive to their propagation. "Ich", or "Ick", (_Ichthyophthirius multifiliis_), on the other hand, is a protozoa, and like most (but not all) animals, cannot survive being removed from its normal environment because it does not have a dormant stage that allows it to wait until it ends up in an environment that meets its requirements. (Brine shrimp and fairy shrimp are a strong exception to this generalization.)

Bacteria and fungus often arrive in any body of water-from lake to a glass of water-on a "contaminated" object or simply through the air, and if they find conditions that suit them, they will multiply. (This is why you can establish a proper nitrogen cycle by simply adding something for the bacteria to "eat" then just waiting, without adding a bacterial culture.) So, while the culprits are there, the healthy fish's immune system is constantly fighting them off and keeping them from multiplying to more harmful levels. But when parameters change, even just finally crossing a fine line in water quality, and a fish becomes stressed just enough, then the harmful organism gains a foot-hold and is able to multiply in the one fish first, then, by its new overwhelming numbers, it is able to attack the other exposed fish in the enclosed environment of the aquarium. Wild populations of fish are aided in fighting these diseases by simple dilution of the concentration of the organisms in the more vast waters of their environment, whereas our poor pet fish are trapped "in the same room" with an increasing numbers of their attackers and without our help, soon succumb. This is why an onslaught such as Phoenix-cry can occur so rapidly.

Olskule


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## cjp999

Thanks for the explanation. Although that was kind of what I had in mind, you presented the facts very clearly. These bacteria tend to be present (although I doubt all bacterial diseases are always present), but it takes either a large enough concentration of them or a weakened immune system for them to infect. Infecting one weakened fish then gives the concentration needed to go after healthy fish too.

Makes me wonder if euthanasia isn't a prudent choice for any fish that reaches a permanent weakened state; either due to age or difficulty fully recovering from an injury or illness. Often the damage done by an illness, including from the meds used to cure the illness, leaves the fish permanently weakened. Same is true of ammonia damage to the gills. These fish are prone to illnesses like columaris, and then spreading it to tank mates.

For the mollies I have that got columnaris, I think I'm done treating them. They've gone through enough treatments over the past 6 weeks. It appears to be gone now, but if it comes back (it will be the 3rd time coming back for a couple of them), I'll probably just euthanize them. Only 3 of 18 got sick in the first place, so I suspect they already have a weaker tolerance for columnaris than the others.


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## Olskule

cjp999 said:


> ... Only 3 of 18 got sick in the first place, so I suspect they already have a weaker tolerance for columnaris than the others.


That could be. There is always the factor of inherent genetic tolerance or intolerance for certain diseases or conditions, and controlled breeding for desirable traits (usually visual traits in aquarium fish) often produces hidden traits with negative consequences, such as susceptibility to certain diseases. This is akin to hip dysplasia in certain breeds of dogs.

Olskule


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## rasetsu

cjp999 said:


> Makes me wonder if euthanasia isn't a prudent choice for any fish that reaches a permanent weakened state; either due to age or difficulty fully recovering from an injury or illness. Often the damage done by an illness, including from the meds used to cure the illness, leaves the fish permanently weakened. Same is true of ammonia damage to the gills. These fish are prone to illnesses like columaris, and then spreading it to tank mates.


Unfortunately, this is my current philosophy as well after having spent lots of money on meds in the past that may or may not cure the disease but tend to throw the system into chaos.

If I see any small fish (tetras and rasboras) that in my experience do not respond quickly to meds begining to exhibit any combination of physical signs of illness (such as seperation from the group, bobbing at the surface, drifting around in the current, etc.) I will net it out to euthanize before it has a higher chance to spread whatever it has or dies and gets cannabalized. If it's extremely easy to catch, then it's not going to make it. If it runs away and still eats, then I will give it a fighting chance.


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## Olskule

*Euthanasia*

Unfortunately, euthanasia is often the ultimate example of being "cruel to be kind", and the hardest to accept. 

Olskule


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## denB

I had the white slime all over my tank driftwood and everything.Lost a bunch of fish. I raised temp to 86 degrees abd it seemed to go away in one week.


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