# New DIY light in progress... 300W Epi home brew



## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've designed the next DIY light for my upcoming 75g tank. 

That last light I built for my 50g tank worked well (plenty of PAR) but it was built with low-CRI 6500Ks and the tank does not have much color. 

I started modifying that light to include adjustable color channels, but never had the time to fully wire/test everything into the hood. During prototyping, I realized that I would need double the number of red leds and the old hood didn't have enough space for them.

The dispersion of this new light will be much better and it will offer adjustable color channels.

The plan is to use LDD-1200L drivers with two parallel strings and a current mirror. The reason is that one of these drivers can support 20x 3W leds @ 600mA, which is the natural size of a channel. If I used 700s, then I would need two or more drivers per channel and many of the drivers would not be used to their potential. For this project, 36V and 1200mA drivers are the best fit, but... I need to build a current mirror for each channel.

Still undecided on the best channel divisions and if any more supplemental colors are needed. It might suffice to have two white channels (6500, 3500), Two blues (RB, cyan), and two reds (D red, bright). This way I can tune the exact blue and red colors as well as the white color temperature.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Add 4 410 violets.. Remove royal blue and replace w/ regular blue.
My suggestion..........


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED UV (410nm) [120°] x4
> LED Blue (480nm) [120°] x5
> ...


Diode count not balanced btw.. Rough approx..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Add 4 410 violets.. Remove royal blue and replace w/ regular blue.
> My suggestion..........
> 
> 
> Diode count not balanced btw.. Rough approx..


The colors I picked are roughly based on the ratios in the SBReef Planted light. They used Royal Blue, and I already had the royal blues (and deep red and cyans) from last year. I dropped green and violet. I didnt think such a small amount of violet would be even noticable visibly, especially with all the reds and royal blues.

OTH, you are going for CRI and the SBReef ostensibly is going for growth spectrum.

Prototype testing showed the EPI whites didn't need much blue at all, but they ate up the reds.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> OTH, you are going for CRI and the SBReef ostensibly is going for growth spectrum.
> 
> Prototype testing showed the EPI whites didn't need much blue at all, but they ate up the reds.


Actually a bit of both CRI and growth do have some opposing positions.. one could eliminate most green/yellow but would look "horrible"..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Actually a bit of both CRI and growth do have some opposing positions.. one could eliminate most green/yellow but would look "horrible"..


These are so cheap, and because I am using analog control, there is no limit to the number of channels I can have. I may just get 10x normal blue and put them on their own channel...

After I've got the light working and looking good, I plan to build an Arduino based PWM controller w/ 16 channels like @MrMan.

This build is based on what I already have and the success of the SBReef which uses epi leds. I figure worst case scenario I can imitate the SBReef colors, even distill them down to two channels. However, I've been looking at higher CRI leds as an option. I'm starting to see the "magic" of the Fresh Fish COB. One of those costs $25 and has the same lumens as ~30 3w epis. Only problem is distribution and spotlighting. 

I've been looking at the smaller CREE CXA2 series leds, for something inbetween the EPI and FF COB. Some of those have high CRI, are not expensive, but sadly only sold in larger lots. Still digging to see if I can find smaller allotment. Viewing angle of those also only 115 so dont necessarily need additional optic and can be better distributed. There is a 95CRI 5K COB around 30 Watts, but I'm trying to decipher the lots/bins to see if any can be ordered in smaller lots.

CXA2 LED Arrays: Premium Color | Cree LED Components


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've been researching white LED options for this build, and IMO the best option (high CRI, light coverage, efficiency), is the.. drum roll please...

CREE CXB1304 :surprise: 

These come in 9v, 18v, and 36V versions in various color temps and bins.

The highest quality LED in this series, min CRI 95 (typical 98) provides 400 lumens, and costs $4.50. Equivalent wattage to six EPI leds, but probably more efficient so this is really only double the cost of epis. 

Why hasn't anyone been championing these? Look better than Fresh Fish for tanks. 115* viewing so probably doesn't need extra optic. 

CR95 4K
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...CL1NOi/F4lNzkZs/wDulA09YI9ZhsC35ULBqpkVIEzYU=

CR90 5K (typ 92)
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...CHpUXioUaovkO2V/ZMfqgih1Rbrj4qoXNu2c9Kj/ubJA=

Above chip bins at 440 lumens @ 400mA. When run at 1A, will provide 880 lm (200%+) for 2.50. So to get the same output as a FF cob will require five(?) of these. Same lumens, half the cost, better distribution. Only potential issue is heat sink. Wonder how much heat sink is required to run one of these at full and keep it at 55*? Totally blows the epis out of water in terms of lumens/$, CRI.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

You would need to show me a 6500K CREE w/ better than 90CRI....................
The wholepoint of the ff was6500k @95CRI...
There are plenty, as you see, <6500K high CRI chips.........


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Why does 6500k matter? I bet you can find a ton of pro aquascapes with fluorescents that are 5k or lower. Dennis wong comes to mind.

Everyones rating is diff, but 5k is generally regarded as white light. 6500k is bluish. Maybe the ff really isnt 6500.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Why does 6500k matter? I bet you can find a ton of pro aquascapes with fluorescents that are 5k or lower.


5k florescent don't really look like 5k LED's..............normally. Regardless of the CRI.
Ther are exceptions of course..


You can "mix" 5K w/ infinite ind. color ratios.

6500K only mattes because it is 6500k.. 
It's a "thing".. go back in time and everyone was "pushing" you need 6500K bulbs. 
Drove me crazy.. 
At that time 6500K Led's were (and for the most part are still) [email protected] for color rendition..










After thinking about it a bit the easiest answer is the fresh fish is about the most perfect stand alone LED for the average aquarium that "I" have seen..


Most are adverse to "warm" tanks and others, like the display crowd, go the high K(6500k or better) more balanced MH route..
LEd's couldn't compete "alone" as in one color..

Best "combo" was 7000k and deep red ala Finnex..

ALL a matter of opinion though..

5000k SORRA's in high CRI "were" good.. Discontinued though ..Violet base w/ RGB phosphors..
There are always people who will disagree and it is their prerogative. My taste is not here taste..
Case in point : Few can tolerate the amount of Cyan I find pleasing and rich..

So I try to play the odds...
This was a custom Reefbreeders I designed.. Owner decided to pull some cyans.. too green..
Wouldn't have been necessary but the base light is only 2 channel..









http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/941866-60-gallon-starfire-dutch-2.html

Point is nobody's perfect..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I think this is more accurate...










Big diff between 4k and 5k. In this pic, 5k is what i want.

95cri 6500 doesnt make any sense. Sunlight/daylight is only 5k anyway, so i think wanting a 95cri 6500 is bs somewhere, either in marketing, expectations, or perception.

Looking at my pic, i would choose 5k, no question. Maybe 5500.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

You can chase the CRI all you want.
Post the PUR% when the build is finished!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well 6500K is sort of bS but remember the standards..
D50 and D65 
5000k or 6500k.. 
There are reasons for them beyond marketing, not always good ones.


> Daylight has a spectrum similar to that of a black body with a correlated color temperature of 6500 K (D65 viewing standard) or 5500 K (daylight-balanced photographic film standard).





> Daylight in motion picture film world is 5600/5500 degrees kelvin. We (film industry peoples) made it the standard because some guy in some point in history determined that is what the average daylight color temperature is... although that number is not accurate most of the time, the standardization is important as it allows all daylight lighting in film/tv to be close to 5600 so our lights match other lights and daylight balanced film stock... and viceversa.
> 
> But in the real world, the light outside can vary tremendously based on weather, time of day, geological location, etc. That is why whomever came up with the daylight standardization may not match what actual daylight is in other parts of the world or in different weather.
> 
> ...


We are sort of pre-disposed to judge colors by daylight..

Depends who you talk to..
http://www.westinghouselighting.com/color-temperature.aspx
OR:


> 1. Daylight: 5000-7500K Cool Blue
> 
> An overcast day, when the sun is completely obscured by clouds, produces the coolest blue color temperature of daylight, 6000-7500K. After the sun sets, you'll see a similar shift in the color temperature toward this cool blue, when the sky becomes your primary light source.
> 
> ...


http://www.iadt.edu/student-life/iadt-buzz/november-2013/kelvin-scale-color-temperature-basics
Now in "Real world" terms and contrary to even my own feelings, most prefer a slight blue tone to their aquarium lighting..
It just "is"............why?? Good question..........

Second would probably be the "roseate" tone, which is just heavy in the blue/red spectrum..w/ some minor fluorescence..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Well 6500K is sort of bS but remember the standards..
> D50 and D65
> 5000k or 6500k..
> There are reasons for them beyond marketing, not always good ones.
> ...


Is it possible to add some of the 6k+ frequencies by using 10K led as a "clarifier"?

For instance, the base of the color could be high CRI 5K, but with an adjustable 6500 and 10K channel, couldn't the color be made "whiter"?

Is it possible you love of the FF is because of how incredibly bright it is? It seems that the luxeon marketing department is in overdrive. First the "fresh" series, now the "sunplus" (with repackaged C series). IOW, we could have done a "SunPLus" build using C-series leds, but now that they have the SunPLus marketing campaign, all of a sudden we have an easy path to high CRI that also grows plants! See what I'm saying? Why didnt the brilliant minds of this forum find the DR+RB+Lime+CW combination before? That combination could have been run through the spectra tool several years ago and gotten the same result. 


It seems that any excitement in new leds (here) is prefaced by impressive marketing. I'm not even sure the FF COB is all that. Looks like one of those budget flood lights some people are using. But because they tell you it has a 95 CRI, its now the holy grail? If this technology is so impressive, certainly they are using it elsewhere in their product line up? Certainly there must be other 65K cobs in smaller form factor?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Fresh Fish wan't "marketed" really.. except for grocery stores..
If ANYONE marketed it, it was me............ 
This is off the label use and CRI isn't even officially published..

It's not a holy grail, except for 6500k temp chips.. .

Whole point I tried to get across is that if one used JUST one chip, this would be the one most people would like the best.
OR at the least, no glaring omissions,,
A "wee bit" pretentious I know..

Luxeon "Lime" is "brighter" but have no particular love of it..

Collection of spectrum's, mostly high-ish CRI..









When using multiple channels/colors it really doesn't matter much..
you can fill in any "holes", tone it any way you want..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

What spectrum analyzer was used on the FF? I'm looking over their datasheet and no where did they state a 95 CRI, or even a minimum CRI. Was this an independent analysis done on a specific chip? 

The lumiled catalog also has the "Crisp Color" line which advertizes >90 cri (and also high GAI "gamut area index") for everything in that series... but only up to 5K. https://www.lumileds.com/stylistseries/crispcolor/

If they have the ability to achieve 95+ CRI in a 6500k, (and if its the feat you say it is), then why haven't they been producing that technology in a smaller form? The crisp color line has a variety of sizes, many which would be more appropriate a planted tank.

So using power of deduction... 

* There is no reason they would reserve this technology to their "fresh focus" line. It would appear in their other lines if they could produce a 6.50k 95+ CRI. Their highest CRI line claims CRI 90. 
* No where do they claim 95 CRI in FF literature. 
* Detailed spectragraph does not appear in their datasheet for the FF chip.
* The claim of 95 CRI either originated from: 
a) Someone did their own analysis from the "spectragraph" provided in their datasheet and assume it has 95 CRI because its similar to something else known to have a high CRI.
b) That spectra you posted was performed on a specific (good) example of a led, probably not in a lab environment. 
c) They actually claim CRI95 which I've been unable to find. 
* The real-world appreciation of this chip comes from a good CRI (likely in the 80+ region)combined with overwhelming power (4k+ lumens) that most people haven't experienced from a single COB.

If this truly is 95 CRI (even if not advertized as such) this technology would infiltrate their entire catalog and be available in smaller sizes. (In which case FF is probably not the best cob for aquariums.) You can get 80+ CRI 6.5K all day, any day from Cree and others.

It doesn't add up.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> What spectrum analyzer was used on the FF? I'm looking over their datasheet and no where did they state a 95 CRI


Personal correspondence, confirmed somewhat w/ SPECTRA..which put it at 99CRI (translation error?) and 6850K...



> Dear Jeff,
> Thank you for your interest in Lumileds. We apologize for the delayed response.
> 
> The CRI measurement is 95 typical.
> ...


http://www.lumileds.com/

cid:[email protected]


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Personal correspondence, confirmed somewhat w/ SPECTRA..which put it at 99CRI (translation error?) and 6850K...


Too good to be true. And if true, we'd be finding it in smaller packages. 

I appreciate the discussion, but I just don't believe the FF is the best choice for planted aquarium. Spotlighting, too bright (used at fractions of capability), not economical when used at < 50%.

If it is 95 CRI, then we should be searching their catalog for a smaller COB with the same characteristics.

fwiw, Ive seen some fantastic planted tanks with budget led flood lights. It may be something about having a wide "beam" of light from a single source that provides gradations in light that make it appear "3D".

Show me the datasheet that says 95 CRI and I'm back on board with the FF. Otherwise I'm going to focus on multiple channels and color tuning.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Never said not to do "to each their own"...

FF is a targeted market COB. And not our market..It's really for lighting manuf...

The reason I even asked them was the spectrum matched closely to most high CRI chips.. as presented..

They didn't "sell" me I sold myself.. 

Yes would be nice to be in smaller emitter packages..
Either have too big.. or in the case of Yuji too small (violet based ones and apparently short lived)
or in the case of SORRA not available as anything but a "unit"..

Like I tried to say, and apparently am failing, w/ additional "colors" base white CRI is not really critical..
Point was to limit complexity..



Actually showed you the data sheet that said that.. in chart form. 
Feel free to contact them yourself or take one to an independent lab.. your "due diligence" not mine. 
Did enough for my uses..

BTW:Finnex uses almost exclusively 7000k chips. 
Adding the 660nm reds upped their color game quite a bit.. From the "dull" RayII to planted plus..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@jeffkrol

This is from the lumiled "crisp color" datasheet. The blue line looks promising in the way the FF does. If you plotted that into your analysis tool, I bet you'd get 95+ CRI too. Except that these chips are 90+ CRI. And only "5K". 
https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/616/DS165-pdf

My point being, if they didn't advertize the CRI of that chip, and you stumbled on that graph, I wouldn't be surprised if after an email with their sales rep you came away with the belief its 95 CRI.

Interestingly, EACH of the leds in this series has a 90+ CRI, yet the spectra of the lower K look very unlike daylight.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

"THEY" told me it was 95CRI.. Double checked w/ SPECTRA.. 
No more no less.. 

As a business they constantly tweak colors/CRI/lensing/packages... like a box of chocolates..

Crisp color, fresh fish, sunplus............

Min CRI for crisp 5000k is 90...........

Find me any higher K chips w/ 90 plus CRI....
do you "need" 6500k ..certainly not... 

do you know how long it took to get people over assuming 6500k tubes were "needed"??

do you understand that many hated LED's because they did not "look" like tubes at 6500K?
And they were right..

Now that bridge has been crossed..whole point.

See the difference?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maybe there's something that you (or we) don't understand about their graphs.

In the crisp color, every one of those lines represents a 90+ CRI. Obviously there is a disconnect between the spectra and the CRI if the crisp color 2700K can be considered 90+.

*My point is that based on the way they are presenting their spectra graph, the CRI is completely unrelated to the spectra.* You cant look at the FF line and assume its high CRI. 

I personally thought that was the way it worked, that the closer the line represented daylight, the less "gaps" there are relative to sunlight, that the higher its CRI. Obviously that is not the case. IMO, the crisp color 5K looks more like daylight than the FF, it has slightly more representation at 480nm and the blue peak is not as pronounced.

I have most of the epis I need for my build. I am debating all this because I either need to work with what I have or find a better white.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

There is a different "standard" for CRI at 4000k and lower..
It's now incandescent not daylight..

I didn't assume high CRI, thus asking the source and digitalizing the curve.. 2 sources unrelated to me.. 













> IMO, the crisp color 5K looks more like daylight than the FF


Depends what the daylight conditions are..
My 5000K Sorra looks not much different than the FF COB.. but it is slightly warmer (off axis, also slight purple tone from the violet base) as it SHOULD be...
separately could not tell the difference.. Together one would need to REALLY split hairs but its there.. 

BTW: graphing that chip gets me 4980K at 79CRI @ D65
Switching to d50 and it goes to 98CRI

http://spectra.1023world.net/

you should play w/ this a bit..

difference between the 5000k crisp color and fresh fish is a slight tweaking of the ratio of green/red phosphors AFAICT..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

A few thoughts:

1) There are obvious disconnects between the spectra presented in their white paper and how CRI is calculated. IMO, those graphs are just intended to be "instructive" and dont represent actual data. Graphing at d65 vs d50 could account the difference, but it certainly isn't 98 CRI

2) CRI I don't think is really that important. Guys with FF supplementing with warm whites, probably lowering the CRI in process for better "look".

3) That said, if CRI isn't the magic bullet, then why try to shoehorn an overpowered FF COB into an aquarium hood? Its a good deal for the lumens, unless you have to run it at 30% power.

4) Given discrepancy of graphs and method of calculating CRI, I'm not going to believe FF is 95+ CRI unless its stated in the datasheet. It needs to be backed by data. If it was CRI 95, they would have proudly stated that. Sales and marketing people, what do they really know?

5) I don't doubt the FF COB looks good, but in the universe of leds, I am certain there are others that can give similar look (or better) that will fit better the space and power requirements of an aquarium hood. Your rallying behind the FF seems based on the idea that CRI is the most important, defining characteristic of a light. You've raised its profile on the forum and several people have used them. I'm of the belief that a light with a published 90 CRI (crisp color series) and designed for high color contrast will probably have a more colorful look. Or perhaps a 5K light with 98 CRI (cxb1304) will look more correct. 
Without seeing both side by side, its impossible to make that judgement.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

A few thoughts:


ChrisX said:


> 1) There are obvious disconnects between the spectra presented in their white paper and how CRI is calculated. IMO, those graphs are just intended to be "instructive" and dont represent actual data. Graphing at d65 vs d50 could account the difference, but it certainly isn't 98 CRI


You nor I have any way of validating that. All your hearsay and my attempt at facts.


ChrisX said:


> 2) CRI I don't think is really that important. Guys with FF supplementing with warm whites, probably lowering the CRI in process for better "look".


Mostly for sunrise/sunset effects. Can't do it w/ 6500K.. Adding red just makes it pinky not orangy.. 


ChrisX said:


> 3) That said, if CRI isn't the magic bullet, then why try to shoehorn an overpowered FF COB into an aquarium hood? Its a good deal for the lumens, unless you have to run it at 30% power.


Driving overpowered LED's low means long life.. And efficiency per watt increases as amps decrease.


ChrisX said:


> 4) Given discrepancy of graphs and method of calculating CRI, I'm not going to believe FF is 95+ CRI unless its stated in the datasheet. It needs to be backed by data. If it was CRI 95, they would have proudly stated that. Sales and marketing people, what do they really know?


Took them over a week to get back to me. "Probably" needed to contact tech for an answer.
Your "discrepancy" is your judgement. There is no proof the graphs aren't accurate..
https://www.lumileds.com/uploads/629/DS170-pdf
It's called a data sheet not make stuff up sheet..............


ChrisX said:


> 5) I don't doubt the FF COB looks good, but in the universe of leds, I am certain there are others that can give similar look (or better) that will fit better the space and power requirements of an aquarium hood. Your rallying behind the FF seems based on the idea that CRI is the most important, defining characteristic of a light. You've raised its profile on the forum and several people have used them. I'm of the belief that a light with a published 90 CRI (crisp color series) and designed for high color contrast will probably have a more colorful look. Or perhaps a 5K light with 98 CRI (cxb1304) will look more correct.
> Without seeing both side by side, its impossible to make that judgement.


Well better is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.

Yes seeing them side by side is important.

NOTE: Why would they lie? They are not "marketing" it for CRI, just presentation/look.. CRI is unimportant to them. Like the marbled meat ect..
So they lied to me so they can sell 6 chips to planted tank people.. err not likely..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> NOTE: Why would they lie? They are not "marketing" it for CRI, just presentation/look.. CRI is unimportant to them. Like the marbled meat ect..
> So they lied to me so they can sell 6 chips to planted tank people.. err not likely..


Most likely explanation, just clearing out their in box and sent you an answer to make you happy. Waited a week because they knew it was less likely to start a back and forth convo if they make you wait. If they dont say 95 in their datasheet, its not.

If it really was a 6500K @ 95CRI, then that tech would be in other products in their catalog, one where the CRI really matters (and they would advertize as such)

I don't have more to add other than I think you engage in wishful thinking and they may have been misleading. 

--------------------------

An interesting thing this made me ponder is what a 6500K led with CRI 80 or 90 or 95 actually means. Lets take a look at the Cree cxb1302 series. They have 5000k at 90 or 95, and they have a 6500k at 80. Both chips are in the same form factor, manufactured with the same process. While their 6500K may be rated 80 at d65, same cob might be CRI 90 at d50. IOW, a 6500K w cri=80 might actually be more visibly correct in the range that people expect than a 6500K w/ 95 cri. In this case, the 80 may have more reds which is one reason why its not a "high CRI" 6500. But the overall look, the overall quality of the light is virtually identical to a 95/6500 that someone added some reds to... which could be more vibrant.

Is a high CRI 6500k even desirable if that means its more correctly creating that cold blue tinted light? Maybe a lower CRI 6500k will "look" better if it has the colors that would cause it a high d50 rating. Is this the real reason we don't see high CRI 6500s? (Because people would complain they are "too blue") They are developing these for people, not for science experiments.

---------------------

Lets get this thread back on track. I won't be using FF COB. I hope to have some updates soon.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

People are used to "warm" lighting indoors.. 
You are getting into the psychology if it all
Same reasoning that Sorra probably discontinued their 5000k light.

But as you know, We are referring to fish tanks not the breakfast nook.. 
If you want a "fish tank" example.. Look no farter than ADA and their award winning MH's..









Almost every one is monotone green w/ a blue tint..
















Asians love it..Goes good w/ expensive stone..
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2012/index0c.html








Lighting
200W(150W MH 8000K + 2x25W 6500 K)
Lighting
4 x T5HO 24W 6500wk

ect. ect..
Granted photos.. but the concept and tone is fairly evident.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

"It puts the lotion on it's skin or it gets the hose again" Hannibal Lector! :grin2:
Just put the f, argh, you know the rest! >


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

/thread


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

The crisp white gen 2 has double peaks on the blue/purple end of things, that’s what I am planning to use in my build.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

napaeozapus said:


> The crisp white gen 2 has double peaks on the blue/purple end of things, that’s what I am planning to use in my build.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They are all 3000K? https://www.lumileds.com/products/cob-leds/luxeon-cob-with-crispwhite

Or something else?


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> They are all 3000K? https://www.lumileds.com/products/cob-leds/luxeon-cob-with-crispwhite
> 
> 
> 
> Or something else?




The 3000 K is what I got to run with the fresh fish.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

napaeozapus said:


> The 3000 K is what I got to run with the fresh fish.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They look promising. I wonder if they avoid the "yellowness" of lowerK whites? Or if they only activate on paper products and fabrics with "whitening agents"?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Let's also not forget that Cree binning is absolutely atrocious. You basically playing the lottery when buying the same chips. I will take the word of Lumileds over Cree any day of the week in regards to CRI and binning.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> Let's also not forget that Cree binning is absolutely atrocious. You basically playing the lottery when buying the same chips. I will take the word of Lumileds over Cree any day of the week in regards to CRI and binning.


Do you mean they are binned incorrectly, or that information gets lost somewhere along the resale chain?

I found a store that sells them by bin:
https://www.fasttech.com/category/1609/diy-kits-parts-led-emitters

At least CREE gives you all the detailed bin info. Lumileds seems more vague. Epi is completely lacking any info.

Mouser and digikey don't maintain that information, so you end up with something in one of four boxes, although they claim they could check the bins they have for you.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

ChrisX said:


> Do you mean they are binned incorrectly, or that information gets lost somewhere along the resale chain?
> 
> I found a store that sells them by bin:
> https://www.fasttech.com/category/1609/diy-kits-parts-led-emitters
> ...


Giving you so-called "detailed bin info" is useless if you order 2 units that are supposed to be in the same bin yet once you fire them they look different. That is quite a common occurrence with Cree. Let's not forget the AI Prime Gen 1 fiasco where two identical units at the same exact setting could look differently because the diodes were not all the same bin even though they were labeled as such from Cree.

At the end of day a Cree is not in the same class of diode as a Lumiled. Datasheets can say all they want but the proof is in the pudding. Cree excels at selling you a decent diode for a super cheap price. Don't know why the name is so synonymous with high-end. Manufacturers just ride the Cree name in order to make people think they getting a product with "high-end" parts.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> At the end of day a Cree is not in the same class of diode as a Lumiled. Datasheets can say all they want but the proof is in the pudding. Cree excels at selling you a decent diode for a super cheap price. Don't know why the name is so synonymous with high-end. Manufacturers just ride the Cree name in order to make people think they getting a product with "high-end" parts.


bingo!.. 
Also whites have noticeable off axis color shifts.. so many have said..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> Giving you so-called "detailed bin info" is useless if you order 2 units that are supposed to be in the same bin yet once you fire them they look different. That is quite a common occurrence with Cree. Let's not forget the AI Prime Gen 1 fiasco where two identical units at the same exact setting could look differently because the diodes were not all the same bin even though they were labeled as such from Cree.
> 
> At the end of day a Cree is not in the same class of diode as a Lumiled. Datasheets can say all they want but the proof is in the pudding. Cree excels at selling you a decent diode for a super cheap price. Don't know why the name is so synonymous with high-end. Manufacturers just ride the Cree name in order to make people think they getting a product with "high-end" parts.


Id like to read more abt the binning fiasco if you have links. Curious where those leds came from. Most likely explanation is mouser split up one of the color kits. Some clors can be ordered as a kit and it will include from many adjacent bins..to be used in a large array. 6.5k kit will include some 5k bins. Check the datasheets.

Cree seems to offer higher # variants for each package making them more versatile. They give you data and you decide. Manufacturers can custom order from specific bins, binning problems for diy probably happen somewhere later in chain. If bins were inaccurate, manufacturers would stop using them, yet as you noticed they are common in high end products. Lumileds doesnt expose that information to consumers, no idea how id get a 7500k lumiled.

I agree they are great deal, even ahead of epi in some cases. 

Here's an exercise: find me a 7500k lumiled!


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

A 7500K diode serves no industrial application whatsoever. Lumileds makes diodes for specific commercial applications and 7500k does nothing for that.



Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## Geoffrey2568 (Mar 8, 2018)

I may be completely wrong, but the way I thought about it was that Cree made high powered and efficient LEDs well, while Philips did better with colour.

I can't find any 7500K Cree either (though I didn't search very hard). Which makes me wonder about SBReef's 10,000K Cree

Also, why are you guys chasing high CRI? Chris mentioned Dennis Wong's tank which is not only warm (about 3500K), but also is low CRI (78). These are his thoughts on CRI
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/light-tuning-spectrum.html


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Maybe it would be best to divide the planted tank world into Natural and Unnatural tanks.. 









W/ the right diodes (did cut the 6500k's out..and it would only improve it's K temp anyways)
it's not nearly as bad as he says..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Red (620-645nm) [120°] x4
> ...


and the light is toned "pink" not yellowish..

How to improve it yet retain "color". Change red to 660nm red.. add cyan (blue-green)


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x3
> ...


Less pink but deeper red...and more blue/green contrast..


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## Geoffrey2568 (Mar 8, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Maybe it would be best to divide the planted tank world into Natural and Unnatural tanks..


Don't most people go after "unnatural" tanks? Except for the people doing biotopes, pretty much all others are unnatural. I haven't looked into it much, but I imagine many bodies of water have lots of algae and are rather murky compared to most of our tanks (or at least our tank goals).

BML's calculator is different
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...low-tech-nano-experiments-15.html#post9894162


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Geoffrey2568 said:


> Don't most people go after "unnatural" tanks? Except for the people doing biotopes, pretty much all others are unnatural. I haven't looked into it much, but I imagine many bodies of water have lots of algae and are rather murky compared to most of our tanks (or at least our tank goals).
> 
> BML's calculator is different
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...low-tech-nano-experiments-15.html#post9894162


I really should explain that a bit more .It was mostly tongue and cheek. 
As to the calculations, that was just an example of a concept, not a real "fact" so to speak.

It was really unfair to say un-natural. Correct term would probably more like enhanced..or maybe enriched as compared to natural.. or biotopic..
Goes back to my old days where "grow lights" first became popular.. 
Nice rich magenta tones, high fluorescence ect. vs just natural daylight, which was actually harder really.
Most lights prior to that time were warm incandescent w/ maybe a blue fosted bulb. Actually quite expensive and pretty weak at that. At least this was common for err "the masses'. The fish stores of course had huge banks of tubes in the nice glowy colors but most really were beyond the norm I'd suspect or for grown ups, at least in my small section of the world and young age.
Obviosly other places/times things were different.
When I returned to that world I abandoned oh soo many years ago I turned to LED's and a more natural presentation. A choice and a style fitting me.
Sort of odd since, as a youth, lusted for those plant lights. Then again plant choices were mostly Elodea, Duckweed, Banana plants, and algae..

I'm trying not to present myself as "knocking" any one over the other and suppose I could do better to support the alternate lifestyle but to be honest, I think that is really more fitting to tubes..
Mainly because I look at it as more static..Like a painting.

Preferred a more dynamic approach to it and LEd's in part. were way more than adequate.
EVEN though, in the long run, just like any, you fixate on what you like.
Kind of a stupid duality.. Wanting something you use less, though dimming/ramping and photo-period adjustments are still on the pallet and color changes really aren't one of the big 
draws.. 
But even w/ that and after a time of playing w/ them and finding no matter how much I adjusted colors/ K temps. "something" was missing.. I found the key (at least in my mind and part. w/ LEDs)
Really poor "distribution" of color..something sort of already purged from tubes. The "new" RGB phosphors could be tweaked and spread over the spectrum better than the crude LEd's of the time (like 5years ago).

So to make up for it one shoots for a higher CRI...Really once a base "color" is found any wanted enhancements can be fairly easily added.. except commercially, at least not cheaply.
THAT has been my little crusade..Things like Finnex 24/7 CC, or Radion xr15 fw, or even sbreef's 2 channel wold probably never arisen w/ out us "tinkerers"... 
Both Fresh and Saltwater.

Heck a few years ago most were 65-7000K take it or leave it lights..
Now not "me alone" per se but a natural progression from a few directions.
Still needed to compete w/ tube swappers.. so there was that.
Bottom line .. theses are bautiful tanks, no doubt about it:









But look at the light:


> 1 Giesemann Aquaflora
> 2 Zoomed Flora
> 3 Sunwave Wavepoint
> 4 Red Wave Wavepoint
> ...


How many will really per-sue something like that? How many will succeed? How many just want a peaceful, colorful tank ?
When I first started giving my "opinion" I used to ask "what do you want it to look like?" but you know, most people really don't think that much about it and many would say, to themselves, "like Tom Barrs tank" till they add up the cost, time and frankly skill needed...
give people "pretty" tanks and let THEM move on from there..and they will if they so choose.
Easiest way to give someone a pretty tank is a natural tank..Few hate that, it's more or less genetic. What we "expect" from experience.
Then again people love glow fish. What the heck do I know.. 

Maybe I shouldn't bother anymore.. Seems people mis-interpret intentions.
oh but one thing on a more personal note.. for some odd reason, I really don't like "purple glow"..and I apologize for that.. 










Pick one.. find someone w/ the same taste to guide you if you want..
too much babbling??


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

@jeffkrol

I'm beginning to think the Spectra tool is like predicting the winner of the Superbowl by running simulations with John Gruden Football (xbox/ps). 

For instance, above you used Luxeon Rebel leds to simulate Dennis Wong's custom BML yet you don't even know if he's using Rebels. Too many variables, too many sources of error.

My new approach to finding "my" look is to build with multiple adjustable color channels. If people are using LDD drivers, having multiple channels is quite easy unless the tank is small.

Giving people the ability to find what they want is better than giving them a part list, imo.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Geoffrey2568 said:


> I may be completely wrong, but the way I thought about it was that Cree made high powered and efficient LEDs well, while Philips did better with colour.
> 
> I can't find any 7500K Cree either (though I didn't search very hard). Which makes me wonder about SBReef's 10,000K Cree
> 
> ...



If you want a 7500K or 8000K cree, look at the XM-L2 and XP-L series (perhaps others). These are binned above 6500K. 

Check out the ANSI color bins. You want something in the 0* or 1A/B bins.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1250673-ansi-white-quadrangle-6500k-binning.html

As you can see, if you order a 6500K without knowing it's bin, you could get anything in the range of 6-7K+. And it could have a yellowish or purplish cast, depending on where it falls in the bins. (This is the mistake I made with my original Epi build, the 6500K leds appear closer to 6000K and they are yellowish.)

AFAIK, when you buy a CREE COB emitter like the CXA/CXB series, you can't select by bin. Furthermore, the emitters that you can choose by bin (XM-L2..) are the type that need to be professionally mounted, so you need to find a reseller who mounts them on a base AND maintains the binning info.

I'd like to find lumileds in the 7K region, but I haven't found any bin info on their material.

Geoffrey, I agree that CRI is not the primary selection criteria, I would put the following ahead of CRI:

* Actual color temp (look) of the diode
* Beam angle
* Optics and mounting options (including heat sink requirements)
* Electrical characteristics (what voltage/current combinations fit your drivers)
* Lumens/$


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> @*jeffkrol*
> 
> I'm beginning to think the Spectra tool is like predicting the winner of the Superbowl by running simulations with John Gruden Football (xbox/ps).
> 
> ...


"A" point was picking ww/CW/RED/blue w/ any brand generally gives you a CRI at 80 or above..
Well 78 in this semi-random case..
Also ww/cw/r/b will enhance most colors.. 
It's sort of a design staple.....
What one want more or less of is personal choice. Never said anything less.. 



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED Blue (470nm) [120°] x1
> LED Red (630nm) [120°] x4
> ...


And yes BML did not use Rebels. The diode brand was partially listed on their site. Many were a company not usually available to us, at least as easily useable diodes.
This is concepts not really a cook book..I know sort of looks like a cook book but it isn't.
Most people will modify to taste. Human nature..

for those that want to emulate nature CRI is important (has its drawbacks) those that don't.. no
Using K is more restrictive than using CRI (even say D65) There are plenty of K's from 5500 to 7000 that have a high CRI..Not 100.. By def not possible.

do you want to view the Mona Lisa by candle light or daylight.
There are justifications for both..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

BML mostly used Luxeons on their stuff. They didn't for violets but that's about it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Still looking.... The luxeon high power COBs are all high voltage, lower current, either 18 or 36 v. Which means there is alot of wasted power when running from Meanwell LDDs. YOu either need to run many parallel strings or buy an LDD for every two COBs. Wish luxeon had the variety of cree. Being a diy end user really limits choices.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> BML mostly used Luxeons on their stuff. They didn't for violets but that's about it.


i'll take your word for that though they also started w/ Meanwell and then went to Invertronic drivers..



> The LEDs we use are made by the world’s leading manufacturers: Philips, for example, and must meet rigid quality control standards.



Pretty open statement from them..Do remember them listing some other manuf. somewhere on their site.
Maybe just for violets.. but???
Doesn't matter no longer BML... Fluence now.
suspect, since Fluence and Luxeon are both heavily hort. woudn't surprise me if all or most are now Luxeon's..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Jeff, there are actually very few lumiled parts that are suitable for DIY builds.

Their main COB range has bad CRI 70 in 6500k.
The rebels need to be mounted by reseller and have really bad CRI.. not worth it.
The crispwhite/crispcolor COB series are high CRI, 3000K, that might be used to warm up a build, but they are high wattage, not ideal for LDD drivers and typical heatsinks.
The freshfocus COB are unknown CRI, high wattage, impossible to fully drive with OTS drivers, difficult to work with.
The sunplus, unknown CRI, really high viewing angle (good/bad), need to be mounted by reseller. Is this just a repacked rebel?


From a DIY perspective, if you really want to use lumileds, the freshfocus(fish) and sunplus white probably best options althought both probably need optics. The sunplus is a decent size for low voltage driver, but not cost effective compared to cree and there is no luminosity or CRI data. The freshfocus is a really awkward size to work with for our purposes. 

I can see why you "believe" in the freshfocus. Its probably the best option in their entire range. Where else can you get a 7000K cob? If it really had a 95 CRI it would be worth working around its issues. Thing cant even be run above half power, even with the largest LDD. The sunplus is probably the best option, but every one needs an optic and its not cost effective compared to cree cob.

The cree catalog has much more variety in cobs.

Please tell me what I'm missing. Is the lumiled catalog as uninteresting as I believe it to be? IMO, most of the lumileds seem scaled to run with high voltage AC drivers in fixed installations.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Jeff, there are actually very few lumiled parts that are suitable for DIY builds.
> 
> Their main COB range has bad CRI 70 in 6500k.
> The rebels need to be mounted by reseller and have really bad CRI.. not worth it.
> ...




Why do you say it can’t be run above half power? Isn’t test current for the 1208 something like 900 mA at 36.3 volts? That’s what I’m planning to drive mine. Maybe I need to recheck the data sheet.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

napaeozapus said:


> Why do you say it can’t be run above half power? Isn’t test current for the 1208 something like 900 mA at 36.3 volts? That’s what I’m planning to drive mine. Maybe I need to recheck the data sheet.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Youre right, with these leds the max is twice the test current (not 3x ). So you could run the 1800mA one at 1500mA. The problem is the forward voltage. If you use an LDD driver, forward voltage is 35- 38v. 

You can run a single cob from an ldd1500h. So if you have a 350W /48V supply ( 7 amps), that means you can only run 7/1.5 = 4 COBs and nothing else. 

So lets say you have a 48" tank, you can put these four COBs across the top, but you are going to be running them at 30%, and you will still have spotlighting problems. Also if you do the math, including a CPU heatsink and fan for each COB, you are close to $200.

The FF cob have a wide dispersion. So if you are hanging it (and it would benefit from hanging high), you will need optics to focus the light or get an eyeful (potentially harmful) of blinding light.

Unfortunately, there won't be anything left for color adjustments. Suppose you want to mix in some red and blue. You would need to give up one of the fresh fish or get another power supply. Now you have three FF cob (assuming your tank doesnt have a center brace). Any other colored leds you mix in wont be the same scale. Not sure how it would work mixing 60W cob with 3W leds.

I suppose the best bet for warmth is to use the "Bread and Pasta" cob with the FF. Because you want a good mix, you would need two of each. Spotlighting is now a major issue if you have them mounted close together.

You could use a 1000mA driver, and instead of four, you could have seven. Of course each COB costs $25, and you've also added another three LDD drivers. Using these is one of the least cost effective solutions for aquarium lighting.

IMO, these are 60W ceiling lights. Probably best to get a high voltage AC driver with dimming. It gets much easier if you are only using one over a small tank.

The light from these needs to be absolutely phenomenal to put up with the additional cost and limitations.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> Youre right, with these leds the max is twice the test current (not 3x ). So you could run the 1800mA one at 1500mA. The problem is the forward voltage. If you use an LDD driver, forward voltage is 35- 38v.
> 
> You can run a single cob from an ldd1500h. So if you have a 350W /48V supply ( 7 amps), that means you can only run 7/1.5 = 4 COBs and nothing else.
> 
> ...




I don’t want to hijack this thread, and as I’m about to start my own build, I’ll create a separate one for it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> You could use a 1000mA driver, and instead of four, you could have seven. Of course each COB costs $25, and you've also added another three LDD drivers. Using these is one of the least cost effective solutions for aquarium lighting.


Use the smaller $18 chips..
Use a 1A LDD.

34.8W @ that current approx.
52 cents a Watt = *$1.56 for 3W*
3515 "Lumens"

Yes COBs are not geometrically as nice as single emitters..









BXRC-27H4000-D-7x-SE
2700K , 97CRI, 3319 Lumens, 30.5W
Prob. cheaper. Try to find one..

Alternate :
BXRC-35A4001-D-73-SE
3500K, 93CRI, 3478 Lumens, 28V @ 1A (approx) Only $9.58/chip *$1.02 for 3W.*.

Still would pair it w/ ff..
could pair it w/ this.. IF one can find singles..
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...H4000-D-74-SE/BXRC-56H4000-D-74-SE-ND/8345506
https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/def...ero SE 18 Array Data Sheet 20171211 Rev G.pdf


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> 34.8W @ that current approx.
> 52 cents a Watt = *$1.56 for 3W*
> 3515 "Lumens"


There is inefficiency in the "design" for lack of better word.

-35V/1A each COB. Check.

-1000mA LDD-H driver. Needs a 48V supply. 

-350Watt supply (7A) can run seven FF COBs at roughly half max power with associated reduction in lumens. 

-LDD-1000H driver at 48V in, will provide 44V out.

-44-35v = 9V of lost potential for each driver used.

-Cant use 36V supply, after driver losses, not enough to power COB.

-Could use a 48V supply and adjust voltage downward, but that won't increase its amperage.. still only supplies 7Amps, so you dont erase any of the losses. Still can only have seven LDD-1000H.

Hopefully you can see the problem. There are multiple sources of inefficiency. 

* Because of the high voltage, each COB can only use about 70% of the wattage of each driver. 9v * 7A = 56 Watts gone!

* Because of desire to use more 1000mA drivers instead of fewer 1500, you are losing 4-5V per LDD driver. 5v * 7A = 35 watts gone.

* Because of how bright they are, they are going to be run at 50% or less, even with the 1000mA drivers.

* At least half of the 350W is going unused or lost due to design problems. You are losing 90W of potential just because of the design. Then because of necessary dimming, you are probably only using half of the 260Watts, so 130Watts. You are only using about 130W of the 350W. You have seven drivers ($35) and a power supply that is over twice as large as it needs to be with better COB choice.

Its just a horrible design all around. Spotlighting, inefficiency, expense. Iff they have 95CRI, and iff the design does not plan for supplemental colors, then it might be reasonable choice. 

My opinion is that they are probably 80 CRI (nowhere else in lumiled catalog is there a 6500K with higher than 70-80). They do appear to be closer to 7K than most. You can get a 1000 lumen, 80 CRI cxa1304 for $1. Better distribution, much cheaper, etc.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

you ignore 3 sources of that info:
BB locus above
Personal correspondence
My "translation" of the spectrum...

so.. whatever.. 

and you have ABSOLUTELY zero proof of your ass-u-me-tion


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> you ignore 3 sources of that info:
> BB locus above
> Personal correspondence
> My "translation" of the spectrum...
> ...


A 95 CRI 6500K does not appear out of no where. Yesterday I had correspondence with one of the reputable Cree resellers and they told me the 6500K parts were from 5000K bins. It took some clarification before I got the right info. The point is that misinformation is given all the time. A marketing person telling YOU 95CRI.. doesn't hold any weight for ME. 

Put another way, this is like Intel binning all their latest i7 chips. .. Lets say the highest bin is 5.0Ghz. Then a month later, they introduce a purpose built gaming system based on the existing i7 architecture and the same process (nm), yet neglect to tell you the clock speed. 

Some gamer on the internet reads "super fast i7 processor" in the marketing and assumes its a 6.0Ghz based on a benchmark they posted for his favorite game. Unsure, the gamer calls GameStop and asks the manager if its a 6.0G chip? The manager says sure, would you like to buy one?

I'm not the one assuming anything. I am basing it off what is (not) in the datasheet and the lack of anything above 80 cri in the rest of their 6500K leds.

I am challenging you on this because I'm not sure its responsible to lead people down this path. The FF COB is not a great fit for aquariums and if it's actually only 80CRI like their other 6500K cobs (or everyone else for that matter!), then people are spending a ton of money they shouldn't be. It looks alright from what I've seen, but I've seen budget flood lights give a similar look.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> A 95 CRI 6500K does not appear out of no where. Yesterday I had correspondence with one of the reputable Cree resellers and they told me the 6500K parts were from 5000K bins. It took some clarification before I got the right info. The point is that misinformation is given all the time. A marketing person telling YOU 95CRI.. doesn't hold any weight for ME.


where are you getting your assumption from? Your pulling 80CRi out of your................or any other than what has, been to the best possible current info.. proven.

fine, don't accept the answer but don't make stuff up w/ ZERO evidence..just "feelings"???



> I am basing it off what is (not) in the datasheet and the lack of anything above 80 cri in the rest of their 6500K leds.


That's ridiculous....in my opinion...



> Lumileds has extended its CoB offering to include LEDs that have a precisely engineered spectrum dedicated for each commercial application


It's freaking easy to tweak a phosphor pack..
Fact that this pack isn't included in small emitters is not proof of anything..



> Lumileds' Luxeon Stylist Series FreshFocus Technology™ for meat and fish is also available in different LED packages, from tiny 3014 packages to large COBs


i know, marketing but interesting nevertheless..



> LEDs with a cool daylight tone of 6500K on the black body curve best accentuate the natural colors in fresh fish. For red beef, a below blackbody color point at an ultrawarm, 2200K color temperature makes the reds appear rich and vibrant. Marbled meats appear best when lit with LEDs at a below blackbody 3500K color temperature. With below blackbody color points, a higher color gamut enables more fully saturated color depiction.


90CRI 6500k small emitter...

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lumileds/L130-6590001400001/L130-6590001400001-ND/5877573

need to buy 3000................Only $208 though

3000K 90 19 20 102 11 118 L130-3090001400001
3500K 90 19 22 113 12 129 L130-3590001400001
4000K 90 20 23 113 12 129 L130-4090001400001
5000K 90 20 23 118 13 140 L130-5090001400001
5700K 90 20 23 118 13 140 L130-5790001400001
6500K 90 20 23 113 12 129 L130-6590001400001


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Show me a 6500K COB w/ published 95 cri from anyone and I may be inclined to believe about the FF. I searched the majority of the lumiled catalog last night and found nothing. Nothing in the cree catalog at 6500k with this cri. Its a unicorn.

Do you believe that a lack of 95cri 6500k to date has been a decision? That for some reason they never decided until now to do this because there wasn't a market for it? I AM operating under the assumption that it is difficult to do because there aren't any.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Show me a 6500K COB w/ published 95 cri from anyone and I may be inclined to believe about the FF. I searched the majority of the lumiled catalog last night and found nothing. Nothing in the cree catalog at 6500k with this cri. Its a unicorn.
> 
> Do you believe that a lack of 95cri 6500k to date has been a decision? That for some reason they never decided until now to do this because there wasn't a market for it? I AM operating under the assumption that it is difficult to do because there aren't any.


above was 90 minimum why is 95 so hard to believe.. Screw CREE not the same company..
It is NOT difficult to do...costs a wee bit more. That's all..
Phosphors are expensive..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> above was 90 minimum why is 95 so hard to believe.. Screw CREE not the same company..
> It is NOT difficult to do...costs a wee bit more. That's all..
> Phosphors are expensive..


Jeff,

Think for a moment about what binning is and what it means. 

When Intel manufactures CPUs, they don't just decide to "make 5.0G processors". What they do (generally) is they test every part and they find that the speed that each part reaches varies based on temperature. A very few may reach 4.7G at 85*C, but more will reach 4.5, and many more will only reach 4.3. 

As they improve the process over the months/years, they can increase the overall speed of the lot. A 4.8G cpu that originally cost $400 may only sell for $300 3 months later as they improved the process and the majority of parts are reaching higher speeds.

The same thing is certainly happening with LEDs.

The reason that higher CRI chips cost more is because they are more rare, and represent the creme of the crop. Cree doesn't decide to "make some 70s, make some 80s, make a few 90s". What happens is that they are manufactured with the same process, tested, and some come out brighter, some more colorful, and across a range of temperatures. The high CRI parts are much more expensive because they are more rare and represent the best parts.

Regarding the FF COBs, they are binned based on luminosity and guaranteed to be within an +/- x/y range on the ANSI White chart. (BTW, the color range is about as large as four cree bins.)

Because the parts are not binned on CRI, that means that the parts you get very likely contain *every* CRI. Its incidental to how the parts are graded and sold. So while one of the best parts *might* be CRI 95, its more likely the average part could be 85, and the minimum 80.

Manufacturing higher CRI parts does not cost more, they cost more because they are a rare outcome.

So if you think the FF COB has a 95 CRI (which is absolutely better than anything at 6500K), then that means one of three things:
1) They discarded any material < 95.
2) They sold the < 95 COBs in another package for different markets
3) The bundled all the CRIs together and binned on luminosity and color temp.

The only likely explanation is "3". Option "2" is a possibility, but there would be CRI 80 and 90 COBs somewhere in their catalog with identical parts. I think its unlikely that they would earmark the highest CRI parts for use in a series that doesn't bin by CRI.

Nothing more to say.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Manufacturing higher CRI parts does not cost more, they cost more because they are a rare outcome.


BS and speculation..
90CRI is listed as a minimum... 
Statistically almost everything is a bell curve.....

99 would be "rare" Anything below 90 gets chucked..
MORE likely shifted to the 80CRI MINIMUM bin.
Rest will follow a normal distribution ..
Manuf will assure (to avoid large losses ) their peak is above 90..








thats what binning does.. Pick averages. IF a manuf states a minimum.. it usually is a minimum or they look stupid...

actually in this case probably mix the phosphors to "peak" at 90.. Then can just shuffle between the 80/90 bins..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Thanks for posting that Yuji graphic. Here is a company that manufactures the highest CRI parts, and if you read about their higher K "combination" chips, they say they maintain high CRI up to 5000K. IOW, the 6500K parts are not 95CRI unless judging them based on warmer colors. Which is fine.

IMO, these are the COBs everyone should be looking at:

https://store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-cob-135l?variant=34820681927

$80 for 10x 1000+ lumen. So basically 10K lumen of 95+ CRI, in a smaller package, avoid problems of spotlighting, they come with actual cri data. etc.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

you thought CREE reps were confused? Try Yuji's....
I trust Luxeon over Yuji more.. Published or not.."My opinion"....
If you'd go far enough back in my history this was "the chip" I liked.. Well actually their violet pump ones but nothing against the blue ones.
Tried and tried to make it work but there are issues..
Blue phosphor instability.
violet pump lifespan
conflicting info ect..

People here have used the blue based COBs. not me personally


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

jeffkrol said:


> you thought CREE reps were confused? Try Yuji's....
> I trust Luxeon over Yuji more.. Published or not.."My opinion"....
> If you'd go far enough back in my history this was "the chip" I liked.. Well actually their violet pump ones but nothing against the blue ones.
> Tried and tried to make it work but there are issues..
> ...


I've used Luxeon K2's. Stupidly powerful chips. Can't think of a tank that really needs it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> you thought CREE reps were confused? Try Yuji's....
> I trust Luxeon over Yuji more.. Published or not.."My opinion"....
> If you'd go far enough back in my history this was "the chip" I liked.. Well actually their violet pump ones but nothing against the blue ones.
> Tried and tried to make it work but there are issues..
> ...


OK, so if I order these, I'm going to have a problem with blue phosphor instability? Conflicting info? The boogeyman?

10 of these would be perfect for a 75g tank. Each one at 900mA provides 1400 lumen. (1100 @ 700 mA) Can run 3x from an LDD-700H @ 43 V. Almost like it was sized for the LDD-H. Perfect.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> OK, so if I order these, I'm going to have a problem with blue phosphor instability? Conflicting info? The boogeyman?
> 
> 10 of these would be perfect for a 75g tank. Each one at 900mA provides 1400 lumen. (1100 @ 700 mA) Can run 3x from an LDD-700H @ 43 V. Almost like it was sized for the LDD-H. Perfect.



No that's for the violet based emitters.. Royal blue pump doesn't use them AFAICT.. Just blue-green/yellow/red..estimate..for high CRI emitters
Sorry for the confusion.Violets use the sort of standard R/G/B phosphors of t5/8's sort of.. 
different materials but same idea.
LED blue phosphors have a hard time w/ the concentrated photon flux density/heat .. unlike tubes..

On a side note you do realize the only real difference between a high K high CRI diode and a lower K high CRI diode is phosphor %..but same phosphors..
At least in the 5-7000K range.
i.e less "converted"...

Only boogeymen appear to be at Luxeon.. 

history..
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/852737-im-obsessing-over-high-cri-diodes.html


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well.. You KNOW I had to do it..
Took the graph from the 90CRI (minimum) 6500k Luxeon chip and imported into SPECTRA..

MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
myData 90criluxeon.txt [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 300 lm
Radiant flux : 984 mW
PPF : 4.4 umol/s
TCP : 6370 K
CRI : 97 @D65
λp : 457 nm
Color : #FEFFF5
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 1.2 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 353 lx
PPFD : 5.1 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------










DID the 5000k as "followup"


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData 90criluxeon5000.txt [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


NOTE: CRI @ D50
CRI @ D65 = 84....


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Well.. You KNOW I had to do it..
> Took the graph from the 90CRI (minimum) 6500k Luxeon chip and imported into SPECTRA..


Which one? Didn't see a 90cri COB 6500k in luxeon catalog.

Also... this should prove to you that the shown curves in datasheet are idealized. A 90cri chip showing a 98 graph? I hope this underscores that you can plot a FF graph and make any assumption about it's cri.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not a COB......................

I hear ya and understand it completely..
But this is the catch.
Though the "bell curve" thing always comes into play when they say "typical" I believe the chances of getting better than worse should be higher than you believe.

FF was stated "typical" 95CRI
Above chips were "typical" 90CRI

I take their word at that..

Yea I agree that the charts may be the better lot of the bell curve but are taken from a "real" chip..
Do you honestly believe someone would 1) expect people to do what I did and 2) not verify w/ real equipment themselves..
These are sold to Manuf. primarily not consumers.. The level of accepted "FUD" is MUCH lower.. 

Many, if not most Lighting manuf would definitely re-bin if mission critical..and not solely rely on manuf..
AND do their own testing..

we don't have that luxury.
This I not LED specific but ALL lighting technologies..

Luminous Devices sells chips for stage lighting ect.. ??Think their charts are going to be seriously fudged and not verified??


> Description
> 
> The Luminus Studio Series has been designed specifically to deliver the spectrum and intensity required in TV and Film production lighting. Optimized color quality produced with the proper balance generates a minimum Color Rendering Index (CRI) of 95 at operating temperature and, more importantly, Television Lighting Consistency Index (TLCI) greater than 90.


how long would they be in business if "actual" chips, for the majority, did not live up to those specs..

We really are in more of a err.. philosophical area than tech..

Will go out and do what I do, try to gather more data..

as to the above charts.. I'd suspect getting chips/COB's seriously centered around that number, skewed to the left.
I'd also expect the "color" to be seriously close..
But like I/they said MIN 90.. Really no more or less.

Until you bin them yourselves.. what "choice" do you really have???


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> FF was stated "typical" 95CRI
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Note that they didn't actually state that in the datasheet.

Its apparent to me that the marketing of lumileds is closely linked to the technology. (Rather, they identified common use cases for their chips.) For instance, the fresh focus line is for grocers. If a contractor is building a custom display for a grocery store, or if a manufacturer is building display lights for that market, their designers will obviously be drawn to that line. From a business standpoint, this is better than having them buried in one of their COB lines. The same thing is true about the truewhite and truecolor.

They seem to be marketed to general lighting contractors, not engineers. 

While I don't believe these FF are 95 cri (necessarily), I do believe they are probably well suited to the tasks they were designed for.


Here is the important question I've derived from this discussion: *At what point is control over the color temp (and hue, tint, etc.) more important than CRI?* 

For instance, I have 6500K epis in my 50g which have the right degree of brightness, but they are obviously a low CRI, actually worse than the white Ledmo 6K strips that I used in my first build. 

If someone handed me a batch of 4000K 95 CRI parts, no matter how good and correct they appear, the tank would never have the level of "brightness" I desire.

OTH, a fixture like the Finnex Stringray uses cheap 7000K whites, but supplements with blue and red in the right proportion. The overall look is very bright. In fact, I would hazard a guess that higher-K lights can make a tank look brighter with less wattage, with less PAR, which for unplanted aquariums is a really good thing!

Currently over my 29G tank, I have one of those adjustable RGB+W strips leds, keeping alive some amazon swords (surprisingly well I might add). The whites by themselves are pretty bad, but with the adjustable colors, the overall look of the tank is more crisp and "deeper" than my epi build.. . .

Which brings me back to THIS build. I know that CRI is important, but I also know that the ability to make changes to tint and coloration pays huge dividends! And I'm not talking about chasing a better CRI, I'm talking about adjustments that can change the "look".


It would be great to use Yuji 6500K (high cri) leds as the basis for this build, but I ALSO want deep red, royal blue, cyan, bright red, and warm white so I can generate the exact look I want. Would 95 CRI white be wasted in that kind of build?

At this point, I've decided I can't stand looking at the EPIs anymore.. if I had to guess.. maybe 65 cri. (You know they're bad when a $10 led strip has a more pleasing bright white.) 

I could base the design on the expensive Yujis, but what is probably more important to me is to have warm and cold channels so I can adjust the warmth, and color channels so I can adjust the tint. (as well as be able to program a 24/7 light cycle) I'm guessing, but for an adjustable multi channel system, beyond 80CRI is probably diminishing returns.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

You could just buy a spectrometer and just test the diodes yourself if you don't believe the manufacturer.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> OTH, a fixture like the Finnex Stringray uses cheap 7000K whites, but supplements with blue and red in the right proportion


right, improves the CRI in almost every "acceptable" ratio. 
counterpoint would be a Beamswork w/ RGBW(10000K)...and low CRI:









nothing wrong w/ it.. it's a "look" like any..

CRI is sort of what you are "used" to what a color , either consciously or unconsciously "should" look like.
Thought I CLEARLY stated that high CRI diodes are not necessary for high CRI..
More to "simplify" a build.
Daylight K w/ high color rendering..Warm chip for ramping for "natural" sunset/rise..

no more no less..
Add deep red for PUR

The exciting" part of the high CRI whites is the filling of the cyan "gap" adding more green hue separation..

The reason colors in low K temps i.e incandescents "look" more natural than what you see when you take a photos under the same light.
Your brain compensates.....sees what it wants to see.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> You could just buy a spectrometer and just test the diodes yourself if you don't believe the manufacturer.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


I believe the datasheet, not internet chatter.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I believe the datasheet, not internet chatter.


Like why? They can be cherry picked easily enough..

you also didn't trust a human from Luxeon..
you are making WAY to big of a deal out of this...

The fresh fish data sheet clearly shows high CRI..










anything along the black dotted line is high CRI..by def..
sort of.. W/ a " daylight" shift above bb locus..until 4000-3500 k ish.. 

Def. not perfect but a useful tool..


> The process of developing CIE recommendations by scientific consensus often requires considerable time. However, the CIE is expediting the work of TC 1-90 and TC 1-91 and they both plan to complete their Technical Reports within 2016. The CRI is widely used in many regulations and specifications, therefore an orderly transition is needed when a new metric is to be introduced. For this reason the current CRI (CIE 13.3) will not be officially replaced until a new metric is widely accepted.


Even if you accept their "numbers" there are still issues..but not critical for this use really..

in a couple of years..none of this will matter. and you still won't have your light built...

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...land2013.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1KmC7FoSMwM6bzJMj4FS0S
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...actsheet.pdf&usg=AOvVaw02W8gwQSQ3MSQSiFjkTvFg


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Nothing new.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Except Cree has no 6500K 95CRI diode like the fresh fish. Yuji is the only one. You say there are plenty of choices available but there are not. Going through the Cree bin lottery is not a real option.

That fresh fish isn't even that big of a cob. Go use a Vero 29 and then we might have something to talk about.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> 1) I'm making a big deal about this? Lol. My opinions are contained in this thread as I make decisions on which leds to use, while you have evangelicalized the FF throughout the forums. I've come to a different conclusion that what you've been "selling".
> 
> 2) If the criteria for a high CRI is proximity to the black dotted line, then all one needs is anything from bins 1A or 1D. Plenty of those are available from CRI 80 and CRI 90 groups. Again, I don't think CRI should be the primary concern, which is why I've questioned the FF. Imagine, someone coming to a different conclusion than JeffKrol!


i've stated facts a I know them. Feel fre to weight them however you want.
You seem quite content w/ trying to have people "believe" ChrisX w/ out one...single.. piece.. of..evidence to the contrary..
you have nothing more than an opinion...

Let people decide themselves.. That's more than fair..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> i've stated facts a I know them. Feel fre to weight them however you want.
> You seem quite content w/ trying to have people "believe" ChrisX w/ out one...single.. piece.. of..evidence to the contrary..
> you have nothing more than an opinion...
> 
> Let people decide themselves.. That's more than fair..


The "evidence", the reason not to use the FF is that its overpowered and ends up being a bad deal when they need to be run at 30%. I haven't seen what I'd call a good result on any large tanks using FF because of spotlighting and inability to easily mix with other colors. They are just scaled too large, the only reason to run them is for "purity" of CRI, but as I've said, I don't think that is the most important factor. DW's website says as much. Frankly his low CRI tanks puts to shame anything done with the FF. Thats my "evidence."


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

EB Gen 2 is where it's at.










Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> EB Gen 2 is where it's at.
> 
> Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


Absolutely! They are on my radar. Easy to wire, great distribution, I think the future will be premade strips like this. Does anyone make a three color RGB strip to supplement?

AFAIK, Bridgelux is only one to make a high-K strip. I checked samsung and citizen and they top at 5000K.

Bump: ------------------------------------------
TOO MUCH TALK, NOT ENOUGH PICTURES...

The enclosure is taking shape. The glass is from an old frame that was dropped and cracked at the corner. I never wanted to throw away such a nice piece of glass and I finally found a use for it! I debated using acrylic, but this is really thin glass and it was free.

The light box is 44" x 11" x 2.5".


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> The "evidence", the reason not to use the FF is that its overpowered and ends up being a bad deal when they need to be run at 30%. I haven't seen what I'd call a good result on any large tanks using FF because of spotlighting and inability to easily mix with other colors. They are just scaled too large, the only reason to run them is for "purity" of CRI, but as I've said, I don't think that is the most important factor. DW's website says as much. Frankly his low CRI tanks puts to shame anything done with the FF. Thats my "evidence."


There are plenty of tanks done well w/ 6500k light sources. There is no reason that a proper design cannot use FF.
I've already stated that small emitters are "arguably" better.. 
I'd wish that 3W FF were readily available.but they are not.
as to "waste".. well that is also a matter of opinion..
My 55 has over 120W "theoretical" COB power over it. Run at 1/2 that.. at most.
It's not part of my criteria and anyone whom I've helped was aware that overbuilding is ALWAYS a possibility..
this is for their own good. It is practically impossible to design "the perfect" light for anyone..

Like this:











ChrisX said:


> My opinion is confined to *my* build thread. I don't act as a lighting consultant giving everyone in the forums suggestions for parts. So people are going to take your advice because of its sheer volume. That said, suggesting the FF when Yuji has high CRI parts better sized for aquariums, (if that is the primary consideration), doesn't make any sense.


Prefer not to see everyone re-invent the wheel and honestly it is only suggestions. Have helped others (besides myself) to design lights or even modify existing ones.
none based on "only" opinion..Don't care if they do it or not.. 

Freely admit to liking helping people.. 





ChrisX said:


> I haven't trashed Cree and said they have binning issues,
> I haven't trashed Yuji and said they have phosphor stability and "other" problems.



That actually wasn't my opinion but direct from Yuji as to the short life of their violet emitters.
You are assuming way to much as to why I say what I do.
Personal correspondence w/ SORRA brought out the blue phosphor instability (as well as a few other primary academic sources)
I don't part. like CREE, stated that and it is part, just "because". 



ChrisX said:


> I'm not injecting "reputation" into the Phillips/Lumiled parts quality, I judge them based on datasheet. I am looking at all the options and sharing my decision making process. I don't think I'm biased.


You didn't accept an answer from the source. Don't see what a data sheet matters..but it's your process ..


ChrisX said:


> I appreciate all of your advice and suggestions, Ive learned a lot from you in the forums, but my choices are starting to diverge from yours the more I learn.



No need to be passive aggressive here...

modified reefbreeders to custom specs:









I know not FF-ishys..
building lights is not just diode choices, Geometry and a whole bunch of factors come in play..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Please take a time out from my thread.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Please take a time out from my thread.


Stop insulting and/or challenging me ...which you are doing..
Question fine but expect an answer:



> Imagine, someone coming to a different conclusion than JeffKrol!


Worlds a big place, plenty of room for divergent opinions..
I promise not to interject any more here IF you don't mention my name 3 times..


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## Marko_Sp (Jun 5, 2010)

This is light of Nichia NFDWJ130B-V2 COB-LED, 5000K, CRI 90, with whom I will build my light. I love that colors, but will ad some blue and d.red "epileds". Nichia gives all specifications but I do not know how to use them in Spectra.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Bridgelux Vesta 2700-5000K, 90CRI tunable white linear. 






https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/def...le White Linear Data Sheet 20171002 Rev A.pdf

This looks like a cost effective and easy way to add high quality warm whites to a build. Each 22" strip provides 3000 lumen per channel @ 1A. At 1500mA / 25V, 4500lumens. $11. Four of these could easily cover a 4' tank.


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## Geoffrey2568 (Mar 8, 2018)

Those look pretty cool. But the biggest issue I'd have with them is its typical voltage is 24.8 at 500mA or 26.3 at 1000mA for the 1' strip. So you can only use one per 36V driver, which creates a lot of inefficiencies as you mentioned earlier.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Geoffrey2568 said:


> Those look pretty cool. But the biggest issue I'd have with them is its typical voltage is 24.8 at 500mA or 26.3 at 1000mA for the 1' strip. So you can only use one per 36V driver, which creates a lot of inefficiencies as you mentioned earlier.



25V @ 1500mA for the 2' strip. Not a terrible match for a 30V LDD-L. But I agree its a bit awkward size.

There is nothing special about the strip besides its relatively high CRI. You still have to wire both channels independently. I think a similar "trick" can be done with small COBs in both 2700K and 6500K.

These strips are easy to install and have 5 year warranty.. which puts them in a class by themselves.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here is the light enclosure. The back panel can be removed, and the glass slid out to access the inside. The box is 44" x 11" x 2.5", with 2" of internal height. Made with wood leftover from the stand/canopy build. The center brace is aligned with the center brace of the 75g tank.

There is enough space inside for me to install and test a variety of leds. I will probably stick with the original plan to build an "SB Reef inspired" epi multi channel light, but I am also considering a high-CRI 5700/2700K build. 

I think the SB Reef lights look like a great deal, although the large version is only 32" and the tank sides won't get as much light. With my larger enclosure, I can better distribute the leds and create extra adjustable channels. 

The light is fully enclosed so that I can control the flow of air across the heat sinks. Current plan is to have a centrally located fan to evacuate hot air, the sides will have small vents for air intake.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

The light box looks pretty good Chris - nice use of the extra glass. Have a friend using a pair of SBReef lights - he is very happy with them and from what I can see in the pictures of his tank, he is able to light up the 4 corners pretty well (UNS120 tank). Will be interesting to see what you load the box with


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> The light box looks pretty good Chris - nice use of the extra glass. Have a friend using a pair of SBReef lights - he is very happy with them and from what I can see in the pictures of his tank, he is able to light up the 4 corners pretty well (UNS120 tank). Will be interesting to see what you load the box with


I've been looking at various options:

1) High CRI Cobs - The high CRI ones are typically quite larger, which would require more serious heat sinks, and possibly optics because of higher mounting. Pro is that they are easier to install. At the end of the day, I'd be stuck with the look of the light wihout much adjustment and probably spotlighting.

2) EPI multchannel color - More work installing. Look will be more "colorful" but may not look "great". The plan was to use ratios similar to the SB, but separate some blues and reds into their own channels so I have more control over red/blue balance. Could be used for sunset and moonlight. Plan to use ardino wifi control. 

3) EB Gen 2 - They are 80ish CRI, and don't have much adjustment. Easy install.


Reason I am leaning towards adjustable colors is because commercial lights I like most are Twinstar and Stingray. HighK whites with color added. I don't love the colors of the SB, it doesn't seem to get the crisp white look. The blue channel looks cold and purplish, the red channel looks yellowish and warm. Together the look is very "busy". I think I can do better.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

For me, I would lean towards the EPI multichannel simply because I really like the ability of my Radion XR15fr to generate any color of sunrise I want. Currently a little warm white mixed with red at about 5% output. Having the red channel separate from the blue channels was something I definitely wanted with the new lights.

In your case, you can build it any way you want. "More work installing" - oh well, more enjoyment afterwards. Having a WiFi connection/control would definitely be nice! Hate the thought of getting the $100 reef link for mine - also hate digging out the stupid cord, plugging in the laptop, etc, etc. BUT, the morning show is worth it ;-)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> For me, I would lean towards the EPI multichannel simply because I really like the ability of my Radion XR15fr to generate any color of sunrise I want. Currently a little warm white mixed with red at about 5% output. Having the red channel separate from the blue channels was something I definitely wanted with the new lights.
> 
> In your case, you can build it any way you want. "More work installing" - oh well, more enjoyment afterwards. Having a WiFi connection/control would definitely be nice! Hate the thought of getting the $100 reef link for mine - also hate digging out the stupid cord, plugging in the laptop, etc, etc. BUT, the morning show is worth it ;-)


Im 90% certain to do multi color channels. I already have a ton of EPI whites, but it turns out the Cree cxa1304 is much more cost effective than the epis, based on lumens, efficiency, and ease of wiring. Probably look better too.

Regarding independent color channels, my feeling is that once I find the ratios I like, having independent control is not as "fun" as I think it will be. In fact, building the ratios into main channels will make dimming and overall use easier. I'm still planning on having independent channels, but I'm trying to find a logical division. Only issue with using Cree cxa whites mixed with epi colors is different drive currents. Can run the cxa lower but then they lose their advantage.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've been playing around with Spectra and I've decided to take a different approach. Rather than starting with a cool white, I'll start with a neutral white base and fill in the gaps to create a better CRI and colder temps. This seems to be the approach taken by Twinstar. Of all the commercial lights, their's has the best look, imo. But they are not adjustable and they are generally sized for smaller tanks.

This approach will also allow me to start with a high 95 CRI 5000K base (Cree cxa1304) which is a good size for mixing with color leds. It will take a good bit of experimentation, but eventually I hope to group all the supplemental colors with the whites in the same channel for easy dimming. I also plan to (eventually) have a 2700K channel for sunrise/sunset and warming the whites. 


I'm currently figuring out the ratios of white to colors that my drivers will support. I can keep adding more whites for more lumens, but then I also need to add more colors.

I am targeting 15000 lumens which should translate into a good medium PAR level with some headroom. 

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
LED Violet (420nm) x1
LED Blue (470nm) x2
LED Cyan (490nm) x2
LED DeepRed (660nm) x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) x10
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 2,077 lm
Radiant flux : 8,057 mW
PPF : 35.5 umol/s
TCP : 7090 K
CRI : 99
λp : 443 nm
Color : #F1E5FF
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm & 120° (compulsory)
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 9.5 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 2,449 lx
PPFD : 41.8 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
SPECTRA


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Tweaking by lumens is irrelevant. I can push 80 PAR 22in down with just 4800 lumens in open air. Underwater multiply that by 15-20%.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> Tweaking by lumens is irrelevant. I can push 80 PAR 22in down with just 4800 lumens in open air. Underwater multiply that by 15-20%.


I know lumens are irrelevant. But the only metric I can use to compare leds that are not installed is lumens. I have to make a decision on how many leds/drivers to buy.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

ChrisX said:


> I know lumens are irrelevant. But the only metric I can use to compare leds that are not installed is lumens. I have to make a decision on how many leds/drivers to buy.


Regardless 15k lumens is way too much no matter what you doing. At most you should be basing your config on 10k lumens max. And even then 10k lumens will not be medium light. I assume this is a standard 75g? 48x18x20?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> Regardless 15k lumens is way too much no matter what you doing. At most you should be basing your config on 10k lumens max. And even then 10k lumens will not be medium light. I assume this is a standard 75g? 48x18x20?


I could do 10K lumens, but I don't think that's enough based on my current lights.

My current light DIY system has 40 epis on its low setting, 250lm x 40 = 10000 lumens, and that is over a 50 gallon (48x12) vs std 75g. I keep it on the low setting to combat algae, but it really needed 50x 250 = 12500lm for carpets.

Its possible to make direct comparisons of leds based on their current/lumens. Based on my current tank, and the fact that the new tank is larger and the lights will be higher, I am more comfortable with 15000 lumens. I want to have the lights as high as possible, and extra lumens will help.

Another metric based on drivers and power supply, 15000 lumens is 30V * 4x 1500mA drivers = 180 Watts. Roughly half of the 360Watt supply.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I have never thought about the amount of lumens over my planted frag tank.
Tank is 48"x24" footprint and LED's are 15.5" from substrate.
Total lumens is 16,240.
This means very little though since I only target PAR @ substrate.
75% is 110PAR @ sub, other 25% "Buce side" is 60PAR @ sub.
PWM dimming is used to tune it in. 60% duty cycle is about the highest on any channel.
So yes the dual pucks are overbuilt but could be used on any tank depth up to 24" and still get 100PAR.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I have never thought about the amount of lumens over my planted frag tank.
> Tank is 48"x24" footprint and LED's are 15.5" from substrate.
> Total lumens is 16,240.
> This means very little though since I only target PAR @ substrate.
> ...


Can you post a link to your latest build? Based on what you say, if I build mine with 15000 lumens, since lights will be 21- 24" from substrate, that should be about right.

It comes down to the number of drivers. If I have 3 white drivers, I'm around 11000, with four drivers I'm at 15000.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The die is cast, 24x 5000k, (95 CRI) is the basis for these new DIY lights. Ordered these and all the parts for the current mirrors from Arrow.

CXA1304-0000-000C0UB250F24 @ $2.28 ea CREE Total: $54.60 

Four LDD-1500L drivers will be used (30v). Each driver will support 6x COBs @ 750mA (1000mA max). 646 lumens @ 750mA. 646x24 = 15,504.

I decided on the CXA1304 (95) vs the CXB1304 (92). The newer version of this COB provides a whopping 30% more lumens (and is about 40% more expensive), but has a bit lower CRI. I could get enough output with just 18 of the CXB, but there was no logical/easy way to divide 18 over the tank.

With 24x and four drivers, there will be two rows of 12, front and back. Each row will be on a separate channel and independently adjustable. This will allow me to lower the output of the back row over the taller stems, and increase the front row to help growing carpet. The light box has 10" of room, front to back, so I should be able to get good dispersion and "zones".

First step is to get the whites installed and working, evaluate, then supplement with colors. The colors will probably add another 3-4k lumens.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Wow, I have to admit I’m a bit fuzzy as to how the current mirror circuitry works. What is the forward voltage for these COB’s?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

napaeozapus said:


> Wow, I have to admit I’m a bit fuzzy as to how the current mirror circuitry works. What is the forward voltage for these COB’s?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


At 750mA, forward voltage of these is 10v. They also make 18v and 36v versions of the cxa1304; these draw less current but same power.

I believe these are the perfect size for my application. Small enough to mix well and provide even coverage, but each one packs a punch. 

You can find all the tech info in the datasheet:
http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXA1304.pdf 

Current mirror ensures that both strings are drawing the same current to avoid thermal runaway. Additions to the circuit are used to protect the other leds if one shorts. https://www.ledsupply.com/blog/wiring-leds-correctly-series-parallel-circuits-explained/

Running parallel strings of LEDs, you may not need a current mirror, but if one led shorts, it has the potential to destroy the other string without some protection.

If I opted not to use parallel strings, this project would require twice as many drivers (albeit the 700mA ones).


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for the link! The LEDs magazine article it references filled in some knowledge gaps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

It's probably too late since you already purchased much of your stuff, but your EE understanding and reasoning in this post is drastically off. Don't take this post as offensive, just educational, since sharing and gaining knowledge as a whole is what a forum is based around. Feel free to correct any of my misunderstandings and I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge.



ChrisX said:


> There is inefficiency in the "design" for lack of better word.
> 
> -35V/1A each COB. Check.
> 
> ...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> It's probably too late since you already purchased much of your stuff, but your EE understanding and reasoning in this post is drastically off. Don't take this post as offensive, just educational, since sharing and gaining knowledge as a whole is what a forum is based around. Feel free to correct any of my misunderstandings and I'll try to answer to the best of my knowledge.



What I was calling efficiency, you more accurately called "capability". I think that was half of the disconnect. In context it was clear what I was saying.

Regarding using the trimpot to increase voltage of a supply to handle multiple high voltage LEDs, that did not occur to me. Thats not EE knowledge, but knowledge of certain equipment. The supply I ordered should be here tomorrow so I can test it's range. However, I believe the FF COB is at an "awkward" voltage, such that the best organization is to run one per LDD driver (in which case there is lost "capability"). Lets say you have a 48v supply. If you use it with FF cob, there will be wasted "capability" for each LDD-H. If you have a 36v and you are able to increase it enough to cover the driver losses (3+v) you still need to hit 37v (18.5x2), so you need ability to adjust to 40+V. Really pushing it. If you are trying to run two from a 1000 or 700mA driver, in order to get lower voltage, you are wasting a ton of capability. Its not clear how they perform below the test current. 

Anyway, exploring all the different LEDs, it was clear that finding ones that can be well organized for your drivers can be challenging. The Cree cxa/cxb range come with a versatility that is unmatched by other brands.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> What I was calling efficiency, you more accurately called "capability". I think that was half of the disconnect. In context it was clear what I was saying.
> 
> Regarding using the trimpot to increase voltage of a supply to handle multiple high voltage LEDs, that did not occur to me. Thats not EE knowledge, but knowledge of certain equipment. The supply I ordered should be here tomorrow so I can test it's range. However, I believe the FF COB is at an "awkward" voltage, such that the best organization is to run one per LDD driver (in which case there is lost "capability"). Lets say you have a 48v supply. If you use it with FF cob, there will be wasted "capability" for each LDD-H. If you have a 36v and you are able to increase it enough to cover the driver losses (3+v) you still need to hit 37v (18.5x2), so you need ability to adjust to 40+V. Really pushing it. If you are trying to run two from a 1000 or 700mA driver, in order to get lower voltage, you are wasting a ton of capability. Its not clear how they perform below the test current.
> 
> Anyway, exploring all the different LEDs, it was clear that finding ones that can be well organized for your drivers can be challenging. The Cree cxa/cxb range come with a versatility that is unmatched by other brands.


I do agree that the FF are at an awkward voltage that requires a $5 driver for each LED, but at 25% of the price of each COB, it's actually not that bad since they're so ludicrously bright at 35W/4200lm per LED. (I have 2 over at 75g right now, paired with 2 xnova 3000k, and could probably go for 2 more simply for spread reasons).



> Its not clear how they perform below the test current.


Yes it is, look at the datasheet.

In terms of doing two 18.5v LEDs, I'll check the current draw and voltage drop of the LDD-H drivers and LEDs when I get home, and that should give an idea of how much they require.

I'm also looking at cree CXA1507s for a happy medium between the two, getting the cost effectiveness of a big LED ($3-4 each) and the light spreadability and 18V like smaller COBs, but depending on how your build goes and looks, I might switch to the 1304s as well. 

Cheers


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> I do agree that the FF are at an awkward voltage that requires a $5 driver for each LED, but at 25% of the price of each COB, it's actually not that bad since they're so ludicrously bright at 35W/4200lm per LED. (I have 2 over at 75g right now, paired with 2 xnova 3000k, and could probably go for 2 more simply for spread reasons).
> 
> 
> Yes it is, look at the datasheet.
> ...


I think the 1304s have the same/better lumen/$ as the FF.

The 5000K 95 CRI 1304, if they were run at 1000mA, would provide 800 lumens each. At 2.28 ea, vs $18 for FF.. 18/2.28 = 7.89.

7.89 * 800 lumens = *6,312 lumens*. And these are some of the less efficient 1304s.

Compared to the FF. 3694 lumens @ 900. At 1500mA(practical maximum), FF gives 3694 * 1.55 = *5725 lumens.* However, they are more likely to be dimmed with light spread across extras to help disperse light. Furthermore, the FF has a wider angle of light (135 vs 115) so less light at the substrate.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Tiny.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

New design. 

Ch1 - Whites front
Ch2 - Whites back
Ch3 - D. Red x20
Ch4 - Blue x 20
Ch5 - Violet, Royal Blue, Cyan, Green

Unsure what exact ratios of colors will be needed. Royal blue to make it colder. Purchased some green just because it might help accent plants. Violet and cyan.. unknown how much will be needed.


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## cemamoc (Apr 8, 2018)

according to your sharing, is 6500K the most suitable color temperature for grow lights?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

cemamoc said:


> according to your sharing, is 6500K the most suitable color temperature for grow lights?


There is no such thing. It's all about personal preference. Some like a warmer tone and others like a colder one. There is no right or wrong.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

cemamoc said:


> according to your sharing, is 6500K the most suitable color temperature for grow lights?


Blue lights can be added to 5000K whites which will raise the apparent color temperature. By starting with 5000K base and having adjustable color channels, I should be able to change the color temperature.

Most people on this forum use 6500K lights, but they often mix them with warmer whites.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

1/8" Angle aluminum stock used for heat sink. Arctic alumina thermal adhesive. Two (parallel) strings. Four of these will cover a 75g tank.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

It works!

Running light bar with the analog dimming circuit I built last year. Currently testing at 20% setting. Even without current mirror, the led strings appear even. Will see if that's still true when running at 100%.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Heat testing:

45min burn in @ 1200mA, no cooling, sitting on desk..20" heatsink... temperature stabilized at 75*C. (85* is max.)

10 minutes more... with small computer fan blowing across desk.. temperature dropped to 47* C. Propped heatsink on top of fan... 39*.

1000mA (500x2) is practical limit without active cooling, with this heatsink. With active cooling, can run at 1500mA or higher.


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## riggles17 (Apr 4, 2018)

Finish up this build, I wanna get mine started and I'm basing it on how your CXA's turn out lol.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

riggles17 said:


> Finish up this build, I wanna get mine started and I'm basing it on how your CXA's turn out lol.


I probably won't have this on a tank, with plants, for another 3+ weeks. 

The light coming from them is pleasing. There isn't any yellow, there isn't any blue. To my eyes the color is crisp, it looks like "paper" if that makes any sense.

CXA is small enough to run on 1/8" angle aluminum stock, which I already have alot of. If you push them they will need active cooling or wider spacing (or better heatsink). 

Things illuminated by this light look correct. IRL, the red looks more red than in the picture. Its a limitation of the cheap phone camera.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Haven't worked any more on this light, but I did order a TC-421 led controller. This is the wifi enabled version of the 420.

I was considering building one of the Arduino based wifi controllers, but then discovered the 421 version of the TC. I couldnt find a PWM servo motor shield on Amazon so decided to simplify.

Apparently the TC421 timeslots are only adjustable in 30min increments (which should be ok). There are only five channels which should be enough for now.

W1 + W2(ww?) + R + B + G(C) I'll probably mix in the violet and royal blue on the white channel.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Can you do a midday dimming with the TC421?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

napaeozapus said:


> Can you do a midday dimming with the TC421?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes, but I suppose it needs to be an hour or more.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Link doesn't seem to work, but googling the file name did. Doesn't look like it will carry enough voltage for the larger COB's sadly.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

napaeozapus said:


> Link doesn't seem to work, but googling the file name did. Doesn't look like it will carry enough voltage for the larger COB's sadly.


As is you are correct but easy enough to just do the 5V tweak to a larger MOSFET..









Substitute TC-421 w/ gate wire soldered on for Aduino..Add any size MOSFET you need..

Or just go constant current:


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Air vents. 

Each of these fans moves 25cfm, the box is approx .5 cf. 100x turnover per minute should keep the heat sinks cool. (fingers crossed)


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1242145-chrisx-75g-sa-community-slow-build-4.html


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wired and tested the white channel LEDS and case fans. Using a voltage converter to bring 36v down to 12v to power the fans, although I'd like to use the TC pwm to control them. 

Everything except the power supply and TC-421 will be contained within the light box. 

The diy driver boards have space for the current mirror, but atm I am relying on accurate binning and installation on the same heat sink to balance the strings.

Plenty of room for the RCB channels.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Had some time to "play" with the TC421. In short, the PC software is full of bugs! If anyone is considering buying one of these, this is what you will have to deal with:

*The original TC420 ran Led Control version 2.1 of the software. There is a new version of PC software "Led Control 3" that supposedly supports the TC421 with WiFi. 

* The new version of the software installs under windows, but it has problems with language support and defaults to 100% Chinese with no way to switch this in the software. If you go to the installation directory, you must delete the Chinese language file, leaving only English. When you next start the application, it will be in English. This also appears to fix the language select feature in the software.

*The TC421 specific, Led Control 3 software removes custom time select from your programming map and defaults to 30 minute increments. This means that fade up/fade down will be accomplished over a minimum of 30 minutes.

*Uploading (they call it downloading) to the 421 over usb is easy. Once you load a program, you can select it from the list of modes on the device.

*If using Led Control 3, and you power off the 421, the program "modes" that you uploaded WILL BE LOST! Their support website suggests using other software, suggests using v2.1. This is the version that was used with the 420.

*Version 2.1 of Led Control doesn't support WiFi, nor does it install under Windows (it's just in a folder you unpack). However, it has the ability to set custom time increments for faster/slower fade.

Basically, it appears that you can use the old version of the software and any uploaded programs will remain in the 421 through a power cycle. However, you lose any wifi connectivity.

I suspect if you want to explore using WiFi, you should use the Android or iOS application, otherwise the 421 using the old software is essentially a TC-420. I may get a chance to explore the Android app at a later date, but for now am programming over usb. I can see that having ability to change and upload programs from phone will be a big improvement if you are a tweaker.


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## danfish (Apr 25, 2017)

Great thread!!

I love reading about people DIY projects especially as in-depth as this, Just wish I had your skill to mix chips to achieve the perfect match.

Can I add in regards to led lighting and those people chasing high CRI, IMO it's better just to select a Kelvin that YOU prefer the aesthetics of.

So far in an effort to find a pleasing single COB
I have tested but am finding it hard to tell the difference between CRI of the below.

95 CRI 5600k CBX 3590 (expensive)
80 CRI 5700k CBX 3590
80 CRI 6500k CBX 3590
80 CRI 5000k CBX 3590
70 CRI 5700k CBX 3590
70 CRI 6500k CBX 3590

I look forward to seeing the finished project on a tank


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

danfish said:


> Great thread!!
> 
> I love reading about people DIY projects especially as in-depth as this, Just wish I had your skill to mix chips to achieve the perfect match.
> 
> ...


Im trying to emulate the look of the Twinstar led lights which appear to be 5000k+rgb. I believe they are starting with a lower k white and raising the temperature by adding blues. Adjustable blue and red channels will allow me to pick how cold it looks. I dont think its possible to get "there" without additional colors.

The choice to use high cri parts is a trade off. They are less efficient and cost more. In my circumstance, choosing 95cri whites vs 80 cri only added $25 to the build.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

danfish said:


> Great thread!!
> 
> I love reading about people DIY projects especially as in-depth as this, Just wish I had your skill to mix chips to achieve the perfect match.
> 
> ...


Why such big chips? 

V(f) is like 72V and 10,000 lumens?
(32V is available.. sort of)



Thia is what you aren't noticing:


> For 80 CRI minimum LEDs, CRI R9 minimum is 0 with a ±2 tolerance. For 90 CRI minimum LEDs, CRI R9 typical is 60.


Lacking red.. well sat red..


sorry Chris still need to say it.. 



Personal opinion similar efficiency (110L/W vs 122L/w).. better chip all around..
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lumileds/L2C5-FS001211E1900/1416-1951-ND/6176081

The "aesthetics" between 5000+k and 6500k can be quite noticeable w/ low CRI chips, not so much w/ better chips..
The difference between adding "other" phosphors than the simple "yellow" of low CRI chips, which just add more or less of the same.. basically more or less yellow..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Personal opinion similar efficiency (110L/W vs 122L/w).. better chip all around..
> https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/lumileds/L2C5-FS001211E1900/1416-1951-ND/6176081
> 
> The "aesthetics" between 5000+k and 6500k can be quite noticeable w/ low CRI chips, not so much w/ better chips..
> The difference between adding "other" phosphors than the simple "yellow" of low CRI chips, which just add more or less of the same.. basically more or less yellow..


Get that thing out of my thread! 

If you can't tell, my build is the "anti Fresh Fish COB" and I hope it underscores the silliness of using that thing.

* Smaller COBs like 1304 will fit on "lesser" heat sinks. (smaller, lighter, less expensive)
* Much better spread, no spotlighting.
* high cri 5000K, using supplemental blues to raise the color temperature. 
* Lower voltage (10v) much easier to fit to LDD drivers
* Roughly equivalent efficiency
* Much less expensive per lumen

Bump: Modded TC421 will plug into light box using cat 5e cable. Mounted on a wooden block to protect wiring.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> Get that thing out of my thread!
> 
> If you can't tell, my build is the "anti Fresh Fish COB" and I hope it underscores the silliness of using that thing.
> 
> ...



Well you wouldn't use CBX's either..


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

cool thread!


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Overall, I'd say I'm happy with this design. By building an enclosed box with a glass face, I am able to control the flow of air through the box, much the same way a PC is cooled. This allows me to use much smaller heat sinks saving money, allowing higher installation density, and lowering the weight.

TC421 is working well to control LDDs, but it takes fine soldering directly to the board which is a bit annoying and time consuming. Realistically I won't need more than five channels. Maybe this weekend I can test the WiFi features.

Rough cost of this build, as it sits:

Wood enclosure- $15 (had materials)
Glass - $10 (had)
Heatsinks - $25
350W, 36v supply - $28
TC421 - $30
24x Cree cxa1304, 5000k 95cri - $60
Rear panel bolts and receivers - $5
All other wood screws/bolts - $5 (had)
20ga Wire - $10
Computer fans - $10
Cat 5 jack - $3
Proto boards = $6
Thermal adhesive = $5
Wire terminals = $10 (had)
-------------------------
~$220


Soon will be adding the Epi color channels, will bring total cost to around $250. With color channels, it will have around 20,000 lumens. Lights in picture at 10%.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Yeah, we have light! Pretty nice. Of course, pics don't really tell how bright the light is. How does it look in person? Look forward to the addition of colors


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Yeah, we have light! Pretty nice. Of course, pics don't really tell how bright the light is. How does it look in person? Look forward to the addition of colors


It looks bright, but I don't think its overkill. The pic is just at 10%.

These leds even though only 5000K have a "clean" look, no apparent yellow. OTH, its not over a tank yet... so idk how to judge this other than to say "it works!".


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> It looks bright, but I don't think its overkill. The pic is just at 10%.
> 
> These leds even though only 5000K have a "clean" look, no apparent yellow. OTH, its not over a tank yet... so idk how to judge this other than to say "it works!".


To get an idea of how overkill it is, I have 2 5000k 1304s and 2 2700k 1304s over a 20x20x16 28 gallon cube, and at 1000mA each, it's 7000-8000 lux at the substrate, or around 105-120PAR alone, plus 60PAR from 8 660nm LEDs, and 50 PAR from 4 RB LEDs. I have everything running at ~20~30% brightness to reduce algae, even with nosebleed CO2.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> To get an idea of how overkill it is, I have 2 5000k 1304s and 2 2700k 1304s over a 20x20x16 28 gallon cube, and at 1000mA each, it's 7000-8000 lux at the substrate, or around 105-120PAR alone, plus 60PAR from 8 660nm LEDs, and 50 PAR from 4 RB LEDs. I have everything running at ~20~30% brightness to reduce algae, even with nosebleed CO2.



If i went with a commercial fixture, i would have got two Sbreef planted tank, which combined is 300+ watts, which is roughly equivalent to the 350 watt power supply i am using. These cxa1304s are run at 750mA and only using about half the supply. From an output perspective, this would be like spreading a single sb reef over a 75 g tank.

The goal was to be able to have the fixture as high above the tank as possible. The farther the lights are from the waterline, the less variation in par through the water column. This stand could also support a 90g tank in the future and the lights would be suited to that.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> To get an idea of how overkill it is, I have 2 5000k 1304s and 2 2700k 1304s over a 20x20x16 28 gallon cube, and at 1000mA each, it's 7000-8000 lux at the substrate, or around 105-120PAR alone, plus 60PAR from 8 660nm LEDs, and 50 PAR from 4 RB LEDs. I have everything running at ~20~30% brightness to reduce algae, even with nosebleed CO2.


OK, you're right, it is overkill.

Even on the 50% setting, it is really bright! The light is very high quality, it looks like sunlight. 

OTH, if I had only half as many, I'd be running them close to full and there wouldn't be as good a spread.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> OK, you're right, it is overkill.
> 
> Even on the 50% setting, it is really bright! The light is very high quality, it looks like sunlight.
> 
> OTH, if I had only half as many, I'd be running them close to full and there wouldn't be as good a spread.


Imagine if all those were FF..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Imagine if all those were FF..


I'm not building a tanning bed!

If I had gone with half as many (12), they would be running close to capacity and light spread wouldn't be as good. 18 Would probably be a better number, but one of the drivers would be split between sides and I'd lose the modular aspect of "strips".

If I never go above 50%, I could further parallelize them, running four parallel groups of three per driver. This would have the advantage that if one of the strings goes out, the others would not be overdriven.


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> If i went with a commercial fixture, i would have got two Sbreef planted tank, which combined is 300+ watts, which is roughly equivalent to the 350 watt power supply i am using. These cxa1304s are run at 750mA and only using about half the supply. From an output perspective, this would be like spreading a single sb reef over a 75 g tank.
> 
> The goal was to be able to have the fixture as high above the tank as possible. The farther the lights are from the waterline, the less variation in par through the water column. This stand could also support a 90g tank in the future and the lights would be suited to that.
> 
> ...


I'm not trying to discount the planning you've put into this, as I've read all of the threads you've posted regarding each aspect of its design. I'm trying to give you real world measurements (now that I have them) using similar COBs that you can use to correlate PAR numbers in your tank setup. I suggest grabbing a $20 LX-1010B lux meter from ebay to get numbers for yourself, but as it seems you're penny pinching with this build I thought you'd appreciate some non-theoretical data to work with.

As another point of consideration, the black-box-tier lights use unknown cheaper diodes with less light output efficiency, and the quoted power consumption numbers take into account ~80% AC-DC conversion efficiency and 80-90% LED driver conversion efficiency, so that 300W power consumption is only 210W to the LEDs, which may be 60-70% of the efficiency of CREEs, so equivalent power would be around 150W of crees. 

To correlate back to the original data I gave, you can assume a 75g is split into 3 16x18x21 cubes similar to mine. You have 8 LEDs per cube, but the cubes are taller. Throwing the data into spectra gives ~100PAR at substrate ignoring refracted light, so when starting the tank, 20-30% would be a good point to begin at.

EDIT: Read the recent replies. I'm interested in comparing the spread of my new soon-to-be-75 fixture, which has two clusters of FF/3000k and reds/blues that are sitting ~18" above the water level, to your spread-out 1304s.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

ChrisX said:


> It looks bright, but I don't think its overkill. The pic is just at 10%.


When are we going to test it with the PAR meter ???
Can it be tested with and without the glass in place, I'm curious about loss.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> To correlate back to the original data I gave, you can assume a 75g is split into 3 16x18x21 cubes similar to mine. You have 8 LEDs per cube, but the cubes are taller. Throwing the data into spectra gives ~100PAR at substrate ignoring refracted light, so when starting the tank, 20-30% would be a good point to begin at.


Its interesting about efficiency. Crees run by LDDs may well be more efficient than EPIs run by AC drivers. OTH, these 95 cri leds are considerably less efficient than the 80cri ones, and the cxa's are 30% less efficient than the cxb's. Hard to say exactly where I am with par. Based on the datasheet, these leds should be providing around 16,000 lumens. Not too interested in buying a lux meter; its probably not hard to convert lumen to lux.


You think that all of these on 100% would be only 100 PAR at the substrate? If thats the case, then they are less powerful than I believed and certainly not overkill. However, on 100%, I suspect they are more than 100 PAR at 20". 50% looks like the maximum I would typically use them.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> When are we going to test it with the PAR meter ???
> Can it be tested with and without the glass in place, I'm curious about loss.


Sure, we can do that. Sadly the house is flooded from all the rains and it will be a while before I can have anyone over.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

SpringHalo said:


> EDIT: Read the recent replies. I'm interested in comparing the spread of my new soon-to-be-75 fixture, which has two clusters of FF/3000k and reds/blues that are sitting ~18" above the water level, to your spread-out 1304s.


The light spread appears completely even throughout the tank.

My plan for the color leds, is to have rows of red, blue, and cyan running up the middle, and there will be a strip of refractive material underneath to help them mix. The refractive (?) material will not be under the whites so as not to reduce the "led shimmer".

The issue I am dealing with is the the Epi color leds that I purchased, I found one of the unused ones already separating from its star. My prior experience with these is that they have a relatively high failure rate that appears related to them separating from their star, so I've paused to consider my options.

Bump:


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

SBreef is nothing but a glorified black box led. Take their so called power rating and divide by half which will get you to real world values. 300W of sbreef is not the same as 300w of Cree let alone Lumiled.

COBs have a much better spread pattern than single diodes. You did not need to buy as many. As for the epi's the age old saying buy cheap once, spend more than double later. Luxeon Rebels or C's would just work and never fail at only a little bit more money.

If you wanted a superior spread pattern with the COBs you can add ledil reflectors with diffusion disc.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> SBreef is nothing but a glorified black box led. Take their so called power rating and divide by half which will get you to real world values. 300W of sbreef is not the same as 300w of Cree let alone Lumiled.
> 
> COBs have a much better spread pattern than single diodes. You did not need to buy as many.


I'm not unhappy with this number. As I've said, half would not be enough, 18 would not organize as well on the drivers and heat sinks.

Using a lesser number of LEDs with reflectors that cost more than the leds in order to get a better spread seems counter productive. That approach certainly makes sense with larger, more expensive COBs.

Using luxeon rebels for colors is an option if I can't get the epis to work. It depends on how easy it is to separate them from the star.. just need to test this out. 

This is just a starting point, the box is designed so I can easily add and remove light bars to get exactly what I want. Having "too much light" is a good problem to have.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SADLY, good luck finding Luxeon star mounted cyans at a "normal" price ($2-3 each).

you can just DIY stars w/ boards and eggs.. 
382197626095 
Dab of therrmal epoxy/grease/silicone and 2 simple solders..

did you find "colored" cheap LED's failed?
most of my (>90%) failures were in whites..
colored held well. Even big cheap 10W COBs
that said, no measurements of "quantity" (photons) losses though.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> SADLY, good luck finding Luxeon star mounted cyans at a "normal" price ($2-3 each).
> 
> you can just DIY stars w/ boards and eggs..
> 382197626095
> ...


I haven't run the colors extensively, just tested some of them. 

Of 60 epi whites run for a year, I had four failures (all 6500k). No warm white failures.

Each one appears to have (been) separated from the star. This may have been because they were epoxy mounted to the heat sink with standard artic silver cpu grease. Either the led was poorly joined to the star when I got them, or the star lifted from the head sink and the led then separated from the star, idk.

The reason I've paused on the colors is I found a new deep red already lifted from the star before even using. I have a ton of deep red, blues, cyans and rather than use them and wait for failures, I'm considering removing from the stars before use. I don't think there is anything wrong with the Epileds themselves, just the aftermarket star mounting. If Epis failed at 10x the rate of other brands, OEMs would not use them.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/exotic-turquoise-495nm/

Not sure who makes them but Cyan at 2.70 nonetheless.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/exotic-turquoise-495nm/
> 
> Not sure who makes them but Cyan at 2.70 nonetheless.



The epi 3w cyans are about .80/ea.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/exotic-turquoise-495nm/
> 
> Not sure who makes them but Cyan at 2.70 nonetheless.


Thanks, did check there before posting.. Maybe just "searched" cyan..




ChrisX said:


> The epi 3w cyans are about .80/ea.



cyans were some of the no compromise diodes I've used at first. (That and 660nm red)

Mainly because, for a while China decided to fake cyan using blue and green (double peak diodes )
Actually, as I learned, wouldn't have been the worst thing.. Targeted wavelength goes from blue to green and does sit a bit more at blue.
Then again.. it wasn't cyan..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Hmm where are all the Luxeon C cyans? Lumileds just didn't count the demand?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Thanks, did check there before posting.. Maybe just "searched" cyan..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Which one do you think the Twinstar uses? It is a real cyan or just plain ol green?

Does it matter if it looks great?


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## SpringHalo (Oct 13, 2017)

I recently emailed StevesLEDs and asked why they got rid of the cyan LEDs, and they responded that the demand wasn't there due to lime LEDs being magnitudes more efficient, producing 480lm @ 1000mA and 2.9v (165lm/W), while cyan LEDs are only 130lm at 1000mA and 3.6V (36lm/W). Truth be told, they barely make a difference in terms of visual perception, and can be visually synthesized using cool blue and lime or green LEDs. I understand spectra makes it seem like you need them to "fill in the gaps in the spectrum", but the tiny little bit of difference they add to the color (to make it "ideal") doesn't even breach the MacAdam ellipse. 

I'll add them into my fixture either this or next weekend to show the difference, but they aren't really much different perceptually, and not worth your time. Focus on reds, blues, and greens like the twinstar.



> The Cyans have been discontinued, because the Luxeon Limes outperforms them in every way, and the Limes cost less, and are more than 9 times brighter using the same power.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Hmm where are all the Luxeon C cyans? Lumileds just didn't count the demand?


Easy to get unmounted.. 
as far as I know they were primarily used for stop/go lights..
more efficient than green chips..


Steves "discontinued" them for "lime"...........
Sadly.. as was my go to source..
CREE never really bothered w/ them..
Sooo much fraud.. 
https://www.ledsales.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1803

Bump:


SpringHalo said:


> I recently emailed StevesLEDs and asked why they got rid of the cyan LEDs, and they responded that the demand wasn't there due to lime LEDs being magnitudes more efficient, producing 480lm @ 1000mA and 2.9v (165lm/W), while cyan LEDs are only 130lm at 1000mA and 3.6V (36lm/W). Truth be told, they barely make a difference in terms of visual perception, and can be visually synthesized using cool blue and lime or green LEDs. I understand spectra makes it seem like you need them to "fill in the gaps in the spectrum", but the tiny little bit of difference they add to the color (to make it "ideal") doesn't even breach the MacAdam ellipse.
> 
> I'll add them into my fixture either this or next weekend to show the difference, but they aren't really much different perceptually, and not worth your time. Focus on reds, blues, and greens like the twinstar.



Mostly agree w/ you .. cool blue fills in a bit more than cyan (depending on the wavelength but GREENs are "partially" worthless.. inefficent and horrible spread.... which is where cyan shines..
Take lime over a green any day.. 



Put a single cyan over a tank and a single cool blue.. Night and day difference..
I've run both high cyans (look green) to lower (look blue green) and do "subjectively" prefer their look over "composite cyan".
W/ DIY and cyan being filler "efficiency" is mostly pointless really .

custom reefbreeders w/ a bit too much cyan for the owner.. Corrected by adding some blues..(not this pic:









Added some 450nm blue..
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/941866-60-gallon-starfire-dutch-4.html

sort of comes down to flipping a coin for photosynthesis.. blue or cyan. Best is some of both.. 
Flatter the nm distribution the better.. 









at least they are not yellow...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Jeff,

Is there a way to adjust channels directly from the tc421? Or to quickly upload adjustments?

So far it appears that adjustments are not real time. You make a guess, upload the program, then can cycle through programs. Sadly each program takes a few seconds to upload and they are done together, so making a single change can take many seconds.

Maybe one of the phone apps works better.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Easy to get unmounted..
> as far as I know they were primarily used for stop/go lights..
> more efficient than green chips..
> 
> ...


Something else not discussed is lighting for the color of the glass. Clear acrylic tanks dont have the bluish green cast of cheap glass tanks. Lighting decisions may vary considerably depending on the quality of the glass.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

sorry, never used a 421..usually make it a point to state that as "421 is wireless but never used it".. 
and the 420 was always a pia to program for me..

All these controllers..(and I mean all them) are not what "I" would design..
Matter of fact it isn't even based on cost.. it's global annoyance to me..

yea that tank was starfire glass so it's blue not green on edge..
found some glass that's made in Germany and is pure clear on edge.. Fascinating stuff..not available a plate AFAICT.. 

Oh and to SpringHalo.. Your cyan quota is filled.. 
blue line FF


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> sorry, never used a 421..usually make it a point to state that as "421 is wireless but never used it"..
> and the 420 was always a pia to program for me..
> 
> All these controllers..(and I mean all them) are not what "I" would design..
> ...


It didn't occur to me that anyone would design/build a LED controller that doesn't let you change the individual channels. I'd seen you pimping it and thought it had your implicit approval.

Its as if the case was designed to "appear" that it can adjust the channels, with up/down buttons, but that just cycles through menu options.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

TC-420 did.. always mentioned the Chinglish software though. Tried encouraging people to hack it (no luck) or decipher the "carrier files" (long story).
not sure what you mean by individual channels though .There are 5

https://youtu.be/kgVt9lyN830
Language change..


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1252425-planning-new-build-my-25g.html


> Err I mention it, wouldn't say vouch for it.. Mentioned it was available and same mod can be done probably.


 #14
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...usa-fed-flex-plus-led-strip.html#post10617066


> TC-420 is the cheapest full function one TC-421 is wireless (never tried it)...


 #2
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-timer-$12-anyone-try-one-2.html#post10479242


> It was always and still will be a cheap alternative to other controllers..
> Can't recommend the TC-421 (wireless) because it hasn't been "tested" ..
> Personally I currently don't have a laptop for ease of reprogramming w/ out removing it from the tank.
> O/P was leaning wireless..and a TC-421 would be $70 cheaper than a Bluefish Mini..but no idea if they changed the gate voltage/frequency..


 #24
Ect................

Saw nothing that would not mention it.. 
sold the Bluefish mini much more (own it) w/ caviets.. like 4 "period" programming like the Fluval 3.0
annoying but usable..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> TC-420 did.. always mentioned the Chinglish software though. Tried encouraging people to hack it (no luck) or decipher the "carrier files" (long story).
> not sure what you mean by individual channels though .There are 5
> 
> https://youtu.be/kgVt9lyN830
> ...


TC421 is same thing as 420 plus wifi.

There doesn't appear to be a way to adjust individual channels from the hardware. afaik, you change the program from software and upload it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> TC421 is same thing as 420 plus wifi.
> 
> There doesn't appear to be a way to adjust individual channels from the hardware. afaik, you change the program from software and upload it.


Yes.. Basically you generate a LUT (look up table) of sorts.
Then download it to the base unit to stick in memory..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

At least now we know the modded 421 works the same as the 420.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Made some more progress, mounted the Epi Color leds on their heatsinks.

Row1: Deep Red
Row2: Blue
Row3: Cyan/Green

There are 18 of each group which can be 2x9 or 3x6 (if I need to lower the intensity). I decided to create a mixed group of green and cyan instead of separating them on their own channels. I can change the relative balance by adding/removing leds from this channel.

This leaves another channel open for Violets and/or Royal Blues. I want to get a feel for how balanced these channels are before making changes. I will probably add the violets into the blue channel, and use last channel as a Royal Blue moonlight.

I removed the Epis from their star base because my prior experience with the epis was that they failed when then base came separated from the LED. I found that of my group of Deep Reds, about half of them were not squarely mounted on the star which probably would have led to premature failure. 

Removing the LED from the star is actually quite easy. I clamped the star down to a tabletop and used a box cutter/razor blade as a chisel under the LED. Only one failure out of 60 leds prepared this way. Bend the +/- tabs up and away from the heat sink.

IMO, this is the best way to work with the epis.


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## Geoffrey2568 (Mar 8, 2018)

Is it safe to mount the Epi LEDs without the stars?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Geoffrey2568 said:


> Is it safe to mount the Epi LEDs without the stars?


Well, thermal transfer "should" be better w/ one less "interface" to go through.
Electrically speaking, as long as the "wings" don't touch the heatsink it will be fine.


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## Marko_Sp (Jun 5, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> Well, thermal transfer "should" be better w/ one less "interface" to go through.
> Electrically speaking, as long as the "wings" don't touch the heatsink it will be fine.


I belived that led is soldered on star as Cree and others, and that heat transfer to the star is at the best. Last week I have glued epileds with stars on my light :frown2: But, teen years ago I have made three 3 bike lamps, on one I glued Cree MCE led on star with artic silver, and two with cheap chinese plaster. All three are still operable and stars did not fall of.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Marko_Sp said:


> I belived that led is soldered on star as Cree and others, and that heat transfer to the star is at the best. Last week I have glued epileds with stars on my light :frown2: But, teen years ago I have made three 3 bike lamps, on one I glued Cree MCE led on star with artic silver, and two with cheap chinese plaster. All three are still operable and stars did not fall of.



It's complicated.. 


https://medium.com/@OpenSeason/soldered-cpu-vs-cheap-paste-59fb96a4fca7


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Before separating the color leds from stars, i made a prototype with 4x 3w white leds mounted directly to aluminum for my 10g tank. Running from 12.5v power supply.

Its been working for a week.

Potential problem is that physical force (from wire) could cause led to come detached, or the paste may break down from heat over time.

Once bent up and soldered, the tabs are unlikely to touch the heatsink.

Surface area of led is 1/6th that of star..uses much less paste.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Finally had some time to finish this up! :smile2:

The whites were insanely bright, so I paralleled them and they are all running from 2x LDD-1500L (each one is running @ ~350mA). They are still insanely bright. The efficiency slope for the cxa's is such that they are more efficient at lower current. They are not half as bright, but perhaps 50% less bright. Still way more than enough. 

The lesson here is that if someone needs more lumens, they could build another parallel chain on their existing driver and probably get a 50% increase in output (depending on LED).

Still no current mirrors, may go back and add them later. As it sits, there are 4x strings of 3 on each LDD. If one string burns out, the other three will be able to handle the load. The color strips will not be as lucky. If it turns out they are much brighter than needed, I will probably replace their 1200mA drivers with 700mA that can handle a burned out strip.

Still have 10x violet, 10x Royal blue, and an unused control channel to add in....


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I added another 8x Deep Red to balance the colors. All colors together at 100% are a very cold white. There don't appear to be any color mixing issues. I may add a few more reds.

Next step will be to add violets. I think the blue channel on 1-3% will serve as a good moonlight, so I should be able to put the violets on their own channel.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ChrisX said:


> I added another 8x Deep Red to balance the colors. All colors together at 100% are a very cold white. There don't appear to be any color mixing issues. I may add a few more reds.
> 
> Next step will be to add violets. I think the blue channel on 1-3% will serve as a good moonlight, so I should be able to put the violets on their own channel.



Since it has been awhile I was wondering exactly (well

what was sold to you) what wavelengths of diodes you used for the colors..
Looks like you used both cyan and green (alternating) for the green channel ..
Reg blue or royal blue?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Since it has been awhile I was wondering exactly (well
> 
> what was sold to you) what wavelengths of diodes you used for the colors..
> Looks like you used both cyan and green (alternating) for the green channel ..
> Reg blue or royal blue?


I mentioned earlier in the thread that the green channel is half green, half cyan. I did it this way because I wanted to have a "green" channel with some of the benefit of filling in the missing spectrum. 

The RG(C)B channels allow me to construct a convincing yellow (mustard) with red and green, so I shouldn't need 2700K whites. Also I can use them to raise the temperature of the main whites. These are "normal" blues.

I am going to set up the wifi before I start playing with color mixing. I like the TC421 for its ability to load and save programs although there appears to be a limit of 20 programs stored on the TC. TBD how flexible the app will be.


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## Marko_Sp (Jun 5, 2010)

This is picture with whites and RGB, or RGB only? It is hard to say without something I know (every root has diferent collor), but it pulls on violet to me, like gro lux. I can't call it cold white...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Marko_Sp said:


> This is picture with whites and RGB, or RGB only? It is hard to say without something I know (every root has diferent collor), but it pulls on violet to me, like gro lux. I can't call it cold white...


This is just the RGB channels together on 100% without the main whites. 

I wanted to get the R/G/B colors balanced so that they would produce "white" on their own.. It has a slight violet tint, closer to blue. If I change the ratios I can probably get closer to true white. Something about the look makes me think of reef tanks. Somthing in this color family: 

The colors are run from 3x HDD1200L drivers at capacity; it looks bright enough to use without the whites, but not a desirable color.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Got the TC421 wifi application working. 

The android application is installed from an .apk on the installation cd. iPhone version of the app is installed from the App Store.

Connecting to the TC via wifi is easy in AP mode (phone direct to TC). With TC421 powered on, press and hold the menu button. 

Your phone will see it in the list of WiFi networks. Connect to use it. (Remember to reconnect to your other wifi network when finished adjusting light.) 

The application works in an almost identical fashion to the desktop app. Unfortunately, there is no "real time" adjustment mode. You change a program and upload it to the TC, which takes about ten seconds. This makes it difficult to fine tune.

I discovered a bug after uploading changes perhaps 100 times. The TC PWM output levels drop to only a fraction of their correct level. To fix, use the "reset" button and reload the program. I am hopeful that the bug is related to repeated uploads over wifi and won't manifest in normal usage. [Edit: This is not a bug, just the TC fading down to the next time period which was 0%]

While the TC421 "is what it is" (not bad for $30), I'm actually very happy with the light design.

With these RGB channels its easy to generate any basic colors in the spectrum using RGB formulas. Orange, yellow, pink, magenta, violet, can all be achieved. Deep Red is probably a compromise from a color mixing standpoint, but they supplement the whites better.

More importantly, its possible to alter the 95cri 5K whites to appear warmer or colder in a very convincing fashion. I think the RGB+ 5K whites is the way to go for appearance, with UV/violet added in for photosynthesis. I can get virtually any "look".


I'm currently looking at some of the other cheap wifi controllers for faster color tuning. I know there are some apps that have an RGB color wheel. I may use another controller to tune the colors, and use the TC for playback of daylight /moonlight cycle.

So far thrilled with the results, the software is the only issue.


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## Marko_Sp (Jun 5, 2010)

ChrisX said:


> With these RGB channels its easy to generate any basic colors in the spectrum using RGB formulas. Orange, yellow, pink, magenta, violet, can all be achieved. Deep Red is probably a compromise from a color mixing standpoint, but they supplement the whites better.
> 
> More importantly, its possible to alter the 95cri 5K whites to appear warmer or colder in a very convincing fashion. I think the RGB+ 5K whites is the way to go for appearance, with UV/violet added in for photosynthesis. I can get virtually any "look".


I think that 95cri LED have enough green, you do not need that channel. At my 220W of 93cri 5000K whites, 36W of blue epileds + 16W violet viasys do not make much change.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Marko_Sp said:


> I think that 95cri LED have enough green, you do not need that channel. At my 220W of 93cri 5000K whites, 36W of blue epileds + 16W violet viasys do not make much change.


*The green channel is absolutely necessary! * The combination of red and green can make yellow and/or orange. So for instance, if I want a warm white around 3000K, I would use 50%red, 50% green, and 30% white. If I want it to look orangish like suset, I would use 80% red, 40% green, and 20% blue with 10% white. Without the green it would just look red and/or purple.


And the red/green combination allows the adding of blues to raise the color temperature without making it look blue! A perfect cold white (high noon) is 40% red 40% green 80% blue 50% white. Without the green, you would add red to balance blue and it would end up looking violet.  With green, it just looks colder.

The greens at 1% combined with blues at 2% is the perfect moonlight. Looks like actual moonlight. Add 1% red and it looks like faintest daylight.

You cant run an RGB color scheme without Green.

All of my whites are running from 2x LDD-1500L. Each color channel is on its own LDD-1200L. So there are 3A for whites and 3.6A for colors. That said, I will probably never need to run my whites above 50%, even though each COB is running at 1/3rd its capacity.

I agree your ratio of whites to blues may be off. 

If I were to design this again, I could probably get away with 12x COBs instead of 24. But it would still need 2x HDD-1500L.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

*High CRI*

This look is made with RGB balanced to white, plus 5K whites at 30%. Camera makes it appear darker than it is.

Red 55% Green 65% Blue 30% White 30%

I find that the red and green channels are very well balanced, there is probably a 30-50% excess of blue. I may address this by replacing the blue's 1200mA driver with a 700mA. 

Color can be made colder by adding more blue although this is already "colder" than the 5K whites by themselves.

Last channel reserved for violet photosynthesis spectrum.

Daylight (High CRI 6K+) 55 65 30 30
Daylight (~3K) 35 25 0 20
Sunset I (orange tint) 80 50 30 10
Sunset II 20 12 5 3
Twilight 1 2 2 0
Moonlight 0 1 1 0
Night 0 0 1 0 

RGB+W only way to fly.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This is the light cycle map I am testing out. In the middle of the day, I drop the blue and increase the green and white to create a warmer light of higher intensity, as if the sun is overhead.

The RGB channels act as a contrast control. Pumping them up makes the tank look more colorful, like a Dennis Wong creation. They can also be used to tint the white. These are 95CRI whites that look quite good by themselves.. until you add the colors.

I'm not even sure how much the quality of the whites matters at this point. I think any 80cri white in the 5-6K range will do nicely. 

Its easy to lower the temperature, make it look "yellowish" by adding red/green in equal proportion. The temperature can also be raised by adding blue/green in roughly equal proportion. Green is the "secret sauce" channel that allows adding red or blue without it actually looking red, blue, or violet.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I've had the tank set up for a few days. Moved all the fish and some scraggly plants from my 50g tank. The plants are mostly placeholders to help the tank cycle and give cover for the fish.

I don't have any pics because I'm still waiting for the water to clear, but my gut feeling is that I have *way* too much Cyan. The Green channel is roughly half Cyan, and with this channel on 50%, the cyan imparts a bluish "darkening" to the plants that doesn't seem to affect the appearance of fish or substrate. It doesn't look "bad", it doesn't look artificial, but its not the look I want. It may be that with lower K whites, they don't need cyan. Next step will be to remove the Cyan and see where I am.

Also, I went "all in" with approx 30 Deep Red diodes, but I suspect that standard red may be closer to what I want. Again, the Deep Red is a darkening red. These colors may be better matched to a really cold or low CRI white. To hell what the spectrum graph says is missing.

I've raised the intensity of the light, and things start to pearl at around 40%. I will probably eventually run it higher than this so that the front corner carpet plants get enough. 

My current thinking is that best colors for appearance should be RGB. Deep Red for photosynthesis and Cyan for "spectrum fill" maybe great for a plant farm, but for a display tank the "look" is more important.

The look is OK, but it doesn't have that "brightness" that is associated with aquarium LEDs. This looks like a fluorescent light.

On a positive note, color mixing is very good, and light has been trouble free.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I've got an equal number of regular red to deep red on my diy light. I kind of like my cyan/green channel personally and mine might be even bluer due to having 3 470-80nm leds per light. Also doesn't have any normal greens but there is a little lime... But it's all about how it looks to ourselves. 30 deep red is insane par/pur :/
If you're close enough to borrow Maryland guppy's par meter you're probably close enough to borrow my seneye reef...

Incidentally Steve's is working on a wifi/bluetooth controller... But I'm also adding a bunch of features to the hurricane. Though the new device will likely have a lot more memory to work with...

Also I don't have an actual blue channel...


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> I've got an equal number of regular red to deep red on my diy light. I kind of like my cyan/green channel personally and mine might be even bluer due to having 3 470-80nm leds per light. Also doesn't have any normal greens but there is a little lime... But it's all about how it looks to ourselves. 30 deep red is insane par/pur :/
> If you're close enough to borrow Maryland guppy's par meter you're probably close enough to borrow my seneye reef...
> 
> Incidentally Steve's is working on a wifi/bluetooth controller... But I'm also adding a bunch of features to the hurricane. Though the new device will likely have a lot more memory to work with...
> ...


TC421 is working great, no need to upgrade.

Tank color looks like one of those fluorescent planted tanks I see, colors are all well represented, but with too much cyan. I think I'm close to where I need to be. 

Next steps... test without cyan.. if that doesn't do what I want, get some normal reds and possibly add a 6500k channel.


Its weird, stuff is pearling but it doesn't "look" all that bright.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Cranking my red channel definitely does that (not very "bright" but pearling that leaves watermarks on my lights 4 to 5 inches over the water) but I've got violets in that channel too because I'm a dummy. So are you going to physically remove the cyans or heh you could wire those up as a separate string and compare a green string vs cyan string?

Since you have a blindingly bright 5k channel would it be better to go higher k for supplemental? I don't really know to be quite honest.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm waiting for the water to clear before I make any decisions.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

How many days does it usually take for your water to clear? Maybe I'm getting too used to sumps, I probably waste a lot of co2 but they clear up quick... unless you mean like greenwater or some such.

Did anything ever come of


> "I'm currently looking at some of the other cheap wifi controllers for faster color tuning. I know there are some apps that have an RGB color wheel. I may use another controller to tune the colors, and use the TC for playback of daylight /moonlight cycle."


I am not clear at all on what kind of control the steve's stuff is likely to have at this point. It wouldn't be a huge leap to go from from working on the firmware to working on the apps as well...

I'm thinking of replacing the 6500ks in my 2nd white channel to more 3500k, maybe some of the 5ks too... I've kind of got a stack of leftover 3500ks anyhow.


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

Crawling out from under the rock to post, but nice work! Glad to see it's working out well, color looks pretty accurate and "tunable". 


Heck, for thirty bucks I might pick up one of those TC421s to play with. Looks pretty useful for sure.


Got a link to the Crees you bought? I might grab a couple to play with later.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Lingwendil said:


> Crawling out from under the rock to post, but nice work! Glad to see it's working out well, color looks pretty accurate and "tunable".
> 
> 
> Heck, for thirty bucks I might pick up one of those TC421s to play with. Looks pretty useful for sure.
> ...


These are CXA 1304s and they have a ton of different bins. These are 90(95typ) cri 5000K.

IMO, the Crees are exactly the right size and easy to install if you are using thermal adhesive. They pack a punch but get good distribution.

Bump:


Wobblebonk said:


> How many days does it usually take for your water to clear? Maybe I'm getting too used to sumps, I probably waste a lot of co2 but they clear up quick... unless you mean like greenwater or some such.
> 
> *Did anything ever come of *
> 
> ...


Ive noticed many people have a combination of 6500k and 3500K. I picked the 5000K because they were high CRI parts. They look really good, but until I get the colors sorted I won't know for sure.

I'm just going to stick with the TC421. There are other controllers, but why bother?

When I set up the tank, I didnt rinse the sand so there was haze. Ive used a fine felt filter an the water has cleared up significantly although there is still a minor haze. Its not crystal clear yet although its only been a few days.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

This has been set up around three months and there haven't been any problems. 

In question was the ability to remove the star base from the epileds and attach them directly to the heatsink with thermal compound. Not a single led has failed. Contrast this to the epi light I built last year which had a handful of failures at start and a steady stream of failures over the past year.

I suspect when Epis fail it is because of poor installation on the star base; the led comes detached and then overheats. My advice if building an epi-based DIY light is to order them without the base and use thermal compound.

Another thing I have learned from building DIT lights is that angle aluminum stock from improvement centers works quite well, no need to buy expensive heat sink material. In fact, I'm using 1/16" aluminum u-channel for the smaller epi color bars and they work fine. 

The fans installed in the light are just exchanging a small amount of air. If the lights were open air they probably would not need active cooling.

The water has been clearing up and the plants are showing some reasonable growth; I may have some pictures soon.


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## riggles17 (Apr 4, 2018)

ChrisX said:


> This has been set up around three months and there haven't been any problems.
> 
> In question was the ability to remove the star base from the epileds and attach them directly to the heatsink with thermal compound. Not a single led has failed. Contrast this to the epi light I built last year which had a handful of failures at start and a steady stream of failures over the past year.
> 
> ...


Please post some pictures soon. I need to upgrade my light soon and I like what you've done, but I would like to see what your tank looks like under it now that it's all finished up!


Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

riggles17 said:


> Please post some pictures soon. I need to upgrade my light soon and I like what you've done, but I would like to see what your tank looks like under it now that it's all finished up!
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


The light and tank look good, but so far its been an algae machine compared to my old tank/light.

I will be adding an equal number of 6500K COBs so I can tune the white balance between 5000K and 6500K. May start out by turning off the 5000K to see if growth habits change with all 6500K.

These lights are not growing plants as well as I had hoped. As a test, I planted some AR in a dirted pot, and their growth is not any better than the ones growing in the sand substrate, so I don't believe it is a nutrient issue. (AR is growing, there is even good color, but leaves are algae covered.)

I am starting to believe that there is an excess of a frequency that algae prefers (maybe too much green), or there is a lack of frequency that plants prefer. Or perhaps the PAR is much lower than expected, in which case adding more wattage will help.

pH drop of 1.5 with CO2 and standard EI dosing worked before.

The light box design, the drivers, the power supply, the glass, the active cooling, the color mixing all working great. Can't recommend until I get the algae problem sorted.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Have you done a rough estimate of "watts" over this tank?
Only asking because I assume you haven't PAR-ed it yet..

Point is I think your light quantity is the main issue..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Have you done a rough estimate of "watts" over this tank?
> Only asking because I assume you haven't PAR-ed it yet..
> 
> Point is I think your light quantity is the main issue..



Light quantity may well be the issue. Too much, too little? That is what confounds me... let me explain.

I had to lower the light to decrease the algae factory. This worked to an extent, algae was decreased, but growth is not exactly gangbusters. Nor was growth significantly better with the light higher. Extra light was just growing more algae faster.

So if the light is too low and the high-light species are doing poorly because of that, and algae is taking over as a result, I would buy that explanation. But I would have expected it to do better with the light higher.

All of the 5K COBs are currently running at 350mA. (70% * 8 hours) 1500mA drivers / 4 parallel chains. So the wattage is not that high.

I could run the COBs at 750mA (100%) and that would effectively double the light. I tested with that for a while and my feeling was that it was "too much" or at least it "looked" like it was too much (perhaps it was just too warm and overbearing). On paper that would be somewhere around 15000 lumens.

Ultimately though, I've been using the RGB leds to raise the apparent color temperature, and this might be introdducing an excess of certain wavelengths while not addressing a lack of others.

I've decided to do a reset and start over, incorporating a 6500K channel. This will double my current wattage, and give more flexibility in the look. Once I've got a baseline that I'm happy with, I can check the PAR.

tldr; Yes, I think the PAR is generally too low, but I want to try a 6500K baseline before increasing it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Here is a current FTS. This pic was taken with a somewhat old tablet, without any color correction or editing. 

I disabled the cyan LEDs. It is 5000K whites, deep red, green, blue. The colored led channels are around 50%, the whites (running 4x parallel to reduce output) are at 70%.

This is what the tank looks like when the water is clear. It's still an algae factory, but I'm making progress on that front. 

I think the RGB+W is the way to go, this looks good to me. Future iteration will add a 6500K channel so I can experiment with raising the color temperature, and I think that a standard red or red/deep red mix for the red channel would be a little nicer. All deep red is a bit too "deep".


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

One way to do RGB+W is to go ocean coral white on the RGB. It's a tri-star with red, green, blue but when you have them tightly packed and run at the same power it looks like white light to the eye. A diffuser would help it even more. Also since the blue in it is of the deep kind 480nm you could replace for cyan and not notice much of a difference.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> One way to do RGB+W is to go ocean coral white on the RGB. It's a tri-star with red, green, blue but when you have them tightly packed and run at the same power it looks like white light to the eye. A diffuser would help it even more. Also since the blue in it is of the deep kind 480nm you could replace for cyan and not notice much of a difference.


Tri-star RGB leds are the way to go, although individual LEDs mix well enough. The picture above is ad-hoc and I didn't realize the light fixture was pushed all the way to the back, which gave a blue tint to the upper back wall.

I used the 3w epis for color because of cost effectiveness, wattage, and ability to custom choose spectrum of each channel.

Edit: I just checked the LED you are referring to, and its 3x custom epileds on a tri star.
https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/ocean-coral-white/

I had high failure rate with epis mounted to stars. I haven't had a single one fail since I removed the stars and mounted the epis directly to the heat sink. That said, it should be possible to mount them that close on the heat sink... maybe the next iteration of this light I will do that... although experiementation shows that the ratios of epi RGB needed are roughly 3:1:2.

So buying a tri star like that would need many more just to make up the defecit of red.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Why not cut the green and leave the cyan? most cyans are visually green..
Reg green, to me, homogenizes all greens.. Makes them all look the same..

Your whites cover the broad band of green. Green diodes are horribly inefficient compared to other colors as well..

Understand this is more of a personal thing but you are cutting out a part of the spectrum w/out cyans..


Like I said all personal as in my liking of deep red over red..
After years of seeing it reg. reds look orange to me..Will admit it does "punch" orange platys though..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

ChrisX said:


> Tri-star RGB leds are the way to go, although individual LEDs mix well enough. The picture above is ad-hoc and I didn't realize the light fixture was pushed all the way to the back, which gave a blue tint to the upper back wall.
> 
> I used the 3w epis for color because of cost effectiveness, wattage, and ability to custom choose spectrum of each channel.
> 
> ...


Steve can do a tri-star with luxeon for you as well and not rely on epi.

Sent from my LGUS997 using Tapatalk


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Why not cut the green and leave the cyan? most cyans are visually green..
> Reg green, to me, homogenizes all greens.. Makes them all look the same..
> 
> Your whites cover the broad band of green. Green diodes are horribly inefficient compared to other colors as well..
> ...


I didnt' test a cyan channel, just didn't have the time and didnt think to do this. 

The greens make a significant contribution to the look, and (from memory) have more lumens/ea compared to the deep reds. Also, its worth noting that the various species of green plants all have distinct looks in my tank; I'm not seeing a homogenation of greens.

The idea is to have three color channels that together can produce a white, and cyan is farther from that ideal than green. I don't doubt a balance could be found with cyan, but my feeling was that the tank looked a bit "off" when cyan was half of the green channel. 

I'm tuning for visual appeal, not plant growth or I'd make a channel with the unused violets and cyans.

I do believe that mixing in some 6500K will lessen the "darkening" of the deep reds.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

There is a reason all the RGB+W LED units on the market have an awesome pop on the plants that no other units have. It's not the high CRI white. You can take a crappy white led and with enough RGB light it will look great while getting tons of the right spectrum. Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.

I'm not even sure the ADA Solar RGB has any white leds to begin with. It might just be tons of super tightly packed RGB leds on a board.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

gus6464 said:


> There is a reason all the RGB+W LED units on the market have an awesome pop on the plants that no other units have. It's not the high CRI white. You can take a crappy white led and with enough RGB light it will look great while getting tons of the right spectrum. Plus there is no such thing as too much RGB as it will just look white to the eye anyway.
> 
> I'm not even sure the ADA Solar RGB has any white leds to begin with. It might just be tons of super tightly packed RGB leds on a board.


Thats true. From a DIY perspective, IMO its difficult to get a pleasing white from OTS RGB leds, and they are quite low in lumens relative to good whites... Also there is the issue of programming the RGBs to make them look correct. 

For a DIYer, W+RGB is a really good option, the only "trick" is getting the ratios correct and getting enough lumens from the color channels to make a difference in the look. 

I already have the 6500K 1304 COBs and drivers, I just need to get some more heatsink and I'll be able to mix in a Cool White channel. I want to do this so I can raise the "apparent" brightness of the tank while lowering the PAR.


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