# Need help with my calculations dosing experts



## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)




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## r0ck0 (Apr 26, 2015)

Isn't there a difference between PPS and EI dosing?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

r0ck0 said:


> Isn't there a difference between PPS and EI dosing?


Yes, there is.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

OP- did the chart that was posted answer your questions?

These were the questions:
_1.am i right with the grams calculations ? Its look fine ?

2.is the -DOSE SIZE: - 15mL means 3 days dosing with 5ml or what ?

3. 83gram K2SO4 in 500ml osmosis water .dose size 15mL three times a week . What range of pps i get ? _

Or, do you need further assistance?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Only question 4 answered...
I will appreciate if you can check my calculations and answer the rest questions ...thanks


Discusluv said:


> OP- did the chart that was posted answer your questions?
> 
> These were the questions:
> _1.am i right with the grams calculations ? Its look fine ?
> ...


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

No, I cannot answer them, I am a beginner like you and read through posts like these because they help me as well.
These are all good questions.
Someone will assist you ( and me ) soon, Im sure.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> How pps it suppose to gives ?
> I got confused with all the calculations....
> Help will be appreciated


 Since you mentioned PPS I assumed you wanted to mix the fertilizer and start dosing. Do you want to mix the fertilizer?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

gilya said:


> 4 questions:
> 
> 1.am i right with the grams calculations ? Its look fine ?


Yes, calculations are correct. 



gilya said:


> 2.is the -DOSE SIZE: - 15mL means 3 days dosing with 5ml or what ?


The dose size is to bring your tank to that target level, single dose.

For instance, using EI level from RotalaButterfly, recommended KNO3 dose is 7.5 ppm N 3 times per week. So that's a total of 22.5 ppm N for the week. You are showing 20ppm per dose, which would be 60ppm for the week. 



gilya said:


> 3. 83gram K2SO4 in 500ml osmosis water .dose size 15mL three times a week . What range of pps i get ?


I assume you mean what range of ppm? If so, K would be 3.01 per dose.



gilya said:


> 4. In PPS dosing there is SS liquid
> For 500ml osmosis with
> 
> 20.38gram NO3
> ...


You are going from talking about EI to PPS dosing. They are not the same. 

And EI really is just kind of a starting point. Very few that I know actually dose specific EI levels, it's some variation that works well in their tank. 

For PPS I know that Edward can help you out. 

And for anyone to really give you good advice, they would need all the information about your tank. Size/fish/plants/lights/CO2/pictures/etc. etc. 

There really isn't a one size fits all method that works for everyone, much depends on the goals for your tank. A world of difference between low light crypt/ferns/swords and high light fast growing flowery stems.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I think that that is the problem when you begin learning something new like this- you sometimes get methods and terms confused as you are learning a new vocabulary that others speak, yet you are still unfamiliar with. 

Many times those that speak and know this language ( the experienced)-- and all those particular details that these terms refer to-- dont realize that what they understand in complex detail, the beginner is still learning the language of.


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## Gregos (Jul 30, 2018)

i will say the best way is to figure out how much the aquarium needs daily! 
so test the water in the morning before lights go on ! then add what you think is correct amount of fertiliser than test again to see where you are ! and repeat until you get where you want to be then test the water next day to see how much aquarium eat it and then just calculate how much needs again 
every aquarium is different! so find out how much your tank needs


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

You right but when you make a liquid based on powders you must do it right . After you have the SS you can decide if you put every day 5 / 10 / 15 ml.
You must prepare a base that will guide you to the best direction with out algee that always will be happy visiting your aquarium.


Gregos said:


> i will say the best way is to figure out how much the aquarium needs daily!
> so test the water in the morning before lights go on ! then add what you think is correct amount of fertiliser than test again to see where you are ! and repeat until you get where you want to be then test the water next day to see how much aquarium eat it and then just calculate how much needs again
> every aquarium is different! so find out how much your tank needs


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

In the EI proccess i waste a lot of expensive powders . If you say the calculations are fine ...so it about all most half kilo of nitrate for 1 bottle of 500ml !?!?

Am i right ? It is crazy and i think unimpossible to mix 500gram powder with 500ml osmosis water (it will stay powder)

I think the best way for me is the pps way .
to make it right by making SS mix for :370 litter
low light (starting with 0.5watt/litter)
30% planted aquarium
4 tap/second targeted to 20ppm co2 .

I will use and fix it after week or 2 with NP( no phosphate) and Nn( no nitrate) mix .

I just want to get an advice for the amount i need to prepare for being on the safe side .




Edward said:


> Since you mentioned PPS I assumed you wanted to mix the fertilizer and start dosing. Do you want to mix the fertilizer?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> I think that that is the problem when you begin learning something new like this- you sometimes get methods and terms confused as you are learning a new vocabulary that others speak, yet you are still unfamiliar with.
> 
> Many times those that speak and know this language ( the experienced)-- and all those particular details that these terms refer to-- dont realize that what they understand in complex detail, the beginner is still learning the language of.


No doubt about that Discusluv. When I first got started, I thought some here were speaking in tongues. 

So yes, it does take some experience. Getting to know and understand either Rotalabutterly or the Zorfox calculators are well worth the time. 

In very general terms, PPS is light dosing designed to dose "just enough" (you can elaborate Edward), and EI is designed to dose "more than enough" of everything, so everything is non limiting. 

Once again, that being said, in regards to EI, very few that I know actually dose recommended EI macro levels. Might be a little more or less of each compound. And then don't even get me started on micros! Also EI recommends dosing micros/macros every other day. Many of us are front loading all or most macros and dosing micros daily. 

And dosing levels of either EI or PPS are all relative to your tank and your goals. 

So the problem is, it IS complicated, until you begin to understand the terms/words/calculations. And even then, it takes some dedication and willingness to experiment to really find out what works in your tank.

Good news is many here happy to help with thoughts on both "EI" or PPS dosing. As always, the more detail you have about your tank, the higher quality advice you will receive.

Not sure what the OP intends to do, so very difficult to help.

Bump:


gilya said:


> I think the best way for me is the pps way .


Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't.

But in general, with a tank that size dosing dry macro ferts, either EI or PPS, is much cheaper and easier in the long run. I would not be making a macro solution for that dosing.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> I have an aquarium 130 50 60
> I understand that substituting an active aquarium to an amazonian platform has the risk of death by releasing high amounts of ammonia at the time of insert the substrate.





gilya said:


> started a cycle with 4 starters . I don't want to use many plants





gilya said:


> I think the best way for me is the pps way .
> to make it right by making SS mix for :370 litter
> low light (starting with 0.5watt/litter)
> 30% planted aquarium
> 4 tap/second targeted to 20ppm co2 .


Looks like you are cycling in newly build 390L/100gal aquarium with ADA substrate and few plants and you have chosen PPS-Classic fertilizer designed for matured aquariums and inert substrate. ADA is not inert substrate.

What you need at this stage and time is PPS-Pro fertilizer and periodic water changes until the ADA substrate releases the extra NH4 ammonium and plants start growing properly. You don’t need to monitor anything other than NH4 until it becomes almost undetectable. Also, you need to know tap water GH and KH.

FYI, What's the difference between PPS-Classic and PPS-Pro?


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Greggz said:


> No doubt about that Discusluv. When I first got started, I thought some here were speaking in tongues.
> 
> So yes, it does take some experience. Getting to know and understand either Rotalabutterly or the Zorfox calculators are well worth the time.
> 
> ...




Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I am in the learning curve right now so have been reading threads and learning more and more each day. But, at first it is pretty overwhelming! [emoji4]


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I am in the learning curve right now so have been reading threads and learning more and more each day. But, at first it is pretty overwhelming! [emoji4]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Glad it helped and reach out anytime if I can help.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Looks like you are cycling in newly build 390L/100gal aquarium with ADA substrate and few plants and you have chosen PPS-Classic fertilizer designed for matured aquariums and inert substrate. ADA is not inert substrate.
> 
> What you need at this stage and time is PPS-Pro fertilizer and periodic water changes until the ADA substrate releases the extra NH4 ammonium and plants start growing properly. You don’t need to monitor anything other than NH4 until it becomes almost undetectable. Also, you need to know tap water GH and KH.
> 
> FYI, What's the difference between PPS-Classic and PPS-Pro?


Thanks
It is exactly what i planned to do but i have some chiano bacteria and some people said to me to add more nitrate because this the problem . "You can not have planted aquarium without some levels of nitrate and phospht in it"and some said don't start dosing macro during cycle cause the ADA soil as a lot of minerals on the first 3 months (and like you said ) don't add nothing just monitor amonia. 

Little confused what to do ....

Some relevant pictures attached...

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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Questions:
A. What is your water source GH and KH?
B. What test kits do you have?
C. How much water can you change and how often?
D. What intensity and how many hours a day is light on?
E. How much CO2 is supplied?

Add to your 400L/100gal aquarium 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) and 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) to help algae and plants. Start dosing daily PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml. Get some cheap TDS tester to help you determine water changes. And get some Ramshorn snails, they will clean everything for you and plants will start growing.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Questions:
> A. What is your water source GH and KH?
> B. What test kits do you have?
> C. How much water can you change and how often?
> ...


Questions:

A. What is your water source GH and KH?

##### tap water ... I have only tester sticks to check hardness[censored] 

B. What test kits do you have?

##### I have API test kit for amonia / phosphat / nitrit / nitrate

C. How much water can you change and how often?

##### every week 30-50%

D. What intensity and how many hours a day is light on?

##### 2 hours morning and 4 hours evening

E. How much CO2 is supplied?

#### waitting for drop checker bot for now its about 4 drops/sec

You saw the pictures ... The rocks also became black ... and the sand has some yellow ... the anobia with black spots . it will be gone or should I bring it out and clean ?

Ramshorn snails are disaster. Every aquariumist I know including me fight against them . I had to get helenas snails to fight them .

any alternative like other useful snails ,shrimps or cleanining fish ?

maybe more light ?

What TDS tester measuring ?

Do you mean 

15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) in 500cc osmosis water ....10 ml daily ?

1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) in 500cc osmosis water ... 5 ml daily ?

no K2SO4 at all ?

Please help me with the mix I need to prepper in two 500cc bottles ...

I started the cycle because the amount of algae was disaster 

And again a new beginning and again algae ... desperation

Many thanks for your help 

[censored]

From: Gil Yaacoby 
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 10:23 AM
To: Gil Yaacoby
Subject: Need help with my calculations dosing experts

[censored]

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...share_tid=1278191&share_fid=4235&share_type=t

Need help with my calculations dosing experts

[censored]

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[censored]

נשלח מסמארטפון ה-Samsung Galaxy שלי.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hi
Can you find your tap water GH and KH levels? This information is needed.

You say you can change 30 – 50% water every week. Very good, do that.

Having 2x T5 54 Watt on 60cm/24” high aquarium does not produce much light. Especially, running 2 hours in the morning and 4 hours evening is not enough. You need at least 8 to 10 hours a day uninterrupted, no break in between. 

You are injecting 4 bps, bubbles per second CO2. Is it 24/7 and is it from pressurized CO2 tank? Is there aeration?


gilya said:


> You saw the pictures ... The rocks also became black ... and the sand has some yellow ... the anobia with black spots . it will be gone or should I bring it out and clean ?
> 
> Ramshorn snails are disaster. Every aquariumist I know including me fight against them . I had to get helenas snails to fight them.


 If you have Ramshorn snails then you don’t have to clean anything as they will do it for you. They keep cleaning everything all day long. They are not a disaster, they are fantastic as they can actually turn disastrous aquariums into fully functioning beauty. Keep in mind that their numbers are proportionate to food supply. What it means is they multiply when there are lots of algae and disappear when their work is done. Then only few remain maintaining the environment, kind of self-regulated.

What TDS tester measuring? 



gilya said:


> Do you mean
> 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) in 500cc osmosis water ....10 ml daily ?
> 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) in 500cc osmosis water ... 5 ml daily ?
> no K2SO4 at all ?


 No, that’s not correct. I wrote: “Add to your 400L/100gal aquarium 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) and 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4).” 
It means you put on scale 10 grams of KNO3 and drop it into your aquarium. Then 1 gram of KH2PO4 and drop it in the aquarium. 



gilya said:


> Please help me with the mix I need to prepper in two 500cc bottles ...












You need to start dosing daily PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml or the plants will die. What information on this table is not clear or is missing?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Hi
> Can you find your tap water GH and KH levels? This information is needed.
> 
> You say you can change 30 – 50% water every week. Very good, do that.
> ...


I will try to summerized what I understood[censored] ...

for the KNO3:

I will put 32.6 gram KNO3 in a 500cc osmosis water and add 10ml dose every day to my 400L aquarium

for the KH2PO4:

I will put 2.9 gram KH2PO4 in a 500cc osmosis water and add 10ml dose every day to my 400L aquarium

for the K2SO4:

I have now a 500cc osmosis with 83gram of K2SO4 (instead of 29.3 gram in the table)

as you wrote before K would be 3.01ppm per dose ...so ... for using that mix I can put 5ml per dose daily ? ( trying reaching 1.3ppm)[censored][censored] is it fine ?

I will continue 30-50% water change once a week ?

about lightning :

I will change the oparation to 7-8 hours of light without any break time .

2 osram 30watt projectors also working and I can add more 2x T5 54 Watt

but since (as you can see in the picture)[censored] this is not a 100% planted aquarium (maybe 25%) so I am afraid using more light that with dosing will bring heavy troubles ...no ?

Co2:

Co2 is from Co2 tank I have and it works only when the light is on . is it fine ?

[censored]

tap water GH and KH levels I will test !

Can 10-50 Otocinclus Catfish will help with the alge ?

Can 10-50 Japanica shrimps will help with the alge ?

both ?



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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> I have now a 500cc osmosis with 83gram of K2SO4 (instead of 29.3 gram in the table)


Please answer this first. How did you dissolve 83 grams of K2SO4 in 500 ml? Maximum solubility is 60 grams at 25C, and 83 grams at 55C. Did you boil it? Is the solution clear without any sediment at room temperature?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Maybe bad advice in another forum .
Fofget it ... I wil do another mix with 29.3 gram instead today.

I am planning to start tonight all you guide me .
Do you suggest I will mix all the macro in one bottle or should i separate in 3 different bottles

If you can answer all the rest questions it will be great because i must start doing this steps rightaway ... (SORRY FOR MY ENGLISH )


?


Edward said:


> Please answer this first. How did you dissolve 83 grams of K2SO4 in 500 ml? Maximum solubility is 60 grams at 25C, and 83 grams at 55C. Did you boil it? Is the solution clear without any sediment at room temperature?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> for the KNO3:
> I will put 32.6 gram KNO3 in a 500cc osmosis water and add 10ml dose every day to my 400L aquarium
> 
> for the KH2PO4:
> I will put 2.9 gram KH2PO4 in a 500cc osmosis water and add 10ml dose every day to my 400L aquarium


No.
The table says, make 2 solutions. One has all the macros and the other has all the micros (TE trace elements). 


gilya said:


> as you wrote before K would be 3.01ppm per dose


 No, never said that.


gilya said:


> I will continue 30-50% water change once a week ?


 Yes, try 50% weekly. 


gilya said:


> I will change the oparation to 7-8 hours of light without any break time .
> 
> 2 osram 30watt projectors also working and I can add more 2x T5 54 Watt
> 
> but since (as you can see in the picture)[censored] this is not a 100% planted aquarium (maybe 25%) so I am afraid using more light that with dosing will bring heavy troubles ...no ?


 More light better, I would add the second set of 2x T5 54W. 

1 set of 2x T5 54W period 8 - 10 hours
2 sets of 2x T5 54W period 5 - 7 hours

More light and dosing does not make algae. Dirty filters and unhappy plants do.



gilya said:


> Co2 is from Co2 tank I have and it works only when the light is on . is it fine ?


 You need to leave it 24/7 on, or turn it on 1 to 2 hours before lights go on, it takes time to saturate. 


gilya said:


> Can 10-50 Otocinclus Catfish will help with the alge ?
> Can 10-50 Japanica shrimps will help with the alge ?
> both ?


 Otocinclus only if you don’t feed them and shrimps don’t clean glass much.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> No.
> The table says, make 2 solutions. One has all the macros and the other has all the micros (TE trace elements).
> No, never said that.
> Yes, try 50% weekly.
> ...


So... i started dozing like in the table ( all micro in 1 bottle and all macro in a bottle )

I add 2 more 54watt t5 and the 2 30 watt osram projectors (attached photo ) 

The co2 also tuned like you guide me .

Worries :
1 . I just worry from the fact i have only 30% planted areas but i hope i am doing it right 

2. I don't have any cleaner team's yet 

Anyway...

I will do some measuring on Friday and see what the situation is . 





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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

gilya said:


> So... i started dozing like in the table ( all micro in 1 bottle and all macro in a bottle )
> 
> I add 2 more 54watt t5 and the 2 30 watt osram projectors (attached photo )
> 
> ...


And what can I do with this alge all over the sand
















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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> And what can I do with this alga all over the sand





gilya said:


> I don't have any cleaner team's yet


...


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> ...


???

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

gilya said:


> ???
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


I clean up crew will *aid* in algae control. 

No clean up crew = More room for algae.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Time 3:16 - 3:21 




Time 4:48 - 5:00


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I love your way to say Japonica shrimps 

How many do you think should I have in my team ?


Edward said:


> Time 3:16 - 3:21 ã€�ADA view 39ã€‘æ°´è�‰ã�[emoji768]ãƒˆãƒªãƒŸãƒ³ã‚°æ–¹æ³• - YouTube
> 
> Time 4:48 - 5:00 Forest Underwater by Takashi Amano - YouTube


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Remember that Cory cats can aid in cleanup.
They would agitate all of that sand.
Cory's are the only reason I have Phish!>


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Cory like Corydoras pygmaeus?
Are they really eat alge or the only reason buying them is because they digging in sand and make the chiano bacteria not to expand under ?


Maryland Guppy said:


> Remember that Cory cats can aid in cleanup.
> They would agitate all of that sand.
> Cory's are the only reason I have Phish!>


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

gilya said:


> Cory like Corydoras pygmaeus?
> Are they really eat alge or the only reason buying them is because they digging in sand and make the chiano bacteria not to expand under ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


Rottala growing in green in the new cycle aquarium but all the pink leaves in the lower part dies. Anyone have experience with such kind of appearance? Over doze? Not enough light ?









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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Corydoras don’t eat algae they stir sand and periphyton that get sucked up by filtration. Your plants are falling apart because they didn’t have enough light, proper fertilizer and cleaning crew. The new growth should look nicer.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Corydoras don’t eat algae they stir sand and periphyton that get sucked up by filtration. Your plants are falling apart because they didn’t have enough light, proper fertilizer and cleaning crew. The new growth should look nicer.


Tomorrow morning i will get a cleaning crew . 

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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Looks like you are cycling in newly build 390L/100gal aquarium with ADA substrate and few plants and you have chosen PPS-Classic fertilizer designed for matured aquariums and inert substrate. ADA is not inert substrate.
> 
> What you need at this stage and time is PPS-Pro fertilizer and periodic water changes until the ADA substrate releases the extra NH4 ammonium and plants start growing properly. You don’t need to monitor anything other than NH4 until it becomes almost undetectable. Also, you need to know tap water GH and KH.
> 
> FYI, What's the difference between PPS-Classic and PPS-Pro?


GH and KH i can calculate from a DTS meter or should i need to buy GH KH kit tester? 

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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

gilya said:


> GH and KH i can calculate from a DTS meter or should i need to buy GH KH kit tester?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


The TDS will give a reading of everything in the water, not just Ca and Mg (GH). You can either check your local water quality report, but for me, they don't list out Ca or other values, so I use a Gh kit for hardness, Ca kit for Ca value. 

I do have a TDS meter, but I use it as a general gauge for if things are off in the tank. My tap is ~200ppm TDS, and with how I dose, my tank runs in the low to mid 300ppm TDS. If I test and see numbers way outside of this range I quickly know something is wrong and investigate more.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I accelerate the co2 to 5 drops a second. And after 5 hours light (one day with 4xt5 + 2 projectors and today only 2xt5 with 2 projectors ) and the co2 checker is still orange (same color when I dropped in) .
I know that I have some things to complete for the algee issue but maybe a look of the pics and the video i will attach will make someone to smart guess of the problems in my tank ?

The rocks turn black the anobias got black dots .
When the 4xt5 were on with the projectors the amount of algee all over the tank was huge. So ... I powerd on The lights only above the plants 30watt×2 projectors and 2xt5 54watt each.


Edward said:


> No.
> The table says, make 2 solutions. One has all the macros and the other has all the micros (TE trace elements).
> No, never said that.
> Yes, try 50% weekly.
> ...



















https://youtu.be/aKmaTQoox-4

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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

gilya said:


> I accelerate the co2 to 5 drops a second. And after 5 hours light (one day with 4xt5 + 2 projectors and today only 2xt5 with 2 projectors ) and the co2 checker is still orange (same color when I dropped in) .
> I know that I have some things to complete for the algee issue but maybe a look of the pics and the video i will attach will make someone to smart guess of the problems in my tank ?
> 
> The rocks turn black the anobias got black dots .
> ...


I got sticks to musure the water hardness. The result is (i dont really understand the results).























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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> The rocks turn black the anobias got black dots .


Looks like you now need more water changes (2 x > 50% weekly), more fertilizer (2 x), more CO2 (drop checker), and what is in the drop checker now? The test sticks are lousy, for aquariums we use GH and KH liquid test kits from aquarium store.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Looks like you now need more water changes (2 x > 50% weekly), more fertilizer (2 x), more CO2 (drop checker), and what is in the drop checker now? The test sticks are lousy, for aquariums we use GH and KH liquid test kits from aquarium store.


If i change every 2-3 days water what about the stability of targeted fertilization and doze sizing? 

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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Remember we talked about periphyton before? That’s where the BBA black algae grow, that’s what is suffocating plants, that’s the stuff Ramshorn snails remove. Water changes help removing it too and fertilizer including CO2 help with plant health. Besides, what is in the drop checker, what colour is it without CO2?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I just wanted to say what an enjoyable and interesting thread this has been. I'm sorry to see the OP having issues, but I've liked seeing all the help he has been getting without any of the "debates" that crop up from time to time regarding dosing schemes, etc. in threads like this.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Looks like you now need more water changes (2 x > 50% weekly), more fertilizer (2 x), more CO2 (drop checker), and what is in the drop checker now? The test sticks are lousy, for aquariums we use GH and KH liquid test kits from aquarium store.


This is the liquid ...









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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Like I wrote ...the color is orange like it know...no change in the color at all


Edward said:


> Remember we talked about periphyton before? That’s where the BBA black algae grow, that’s what is suffocating plants, that’s the stuff Ramshorn snails remove. Water changes help removing it too and fertilizer including CO2 help with plant health. Besides, what is in the drop checker, what colour is it without CO2?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Jeff5614 said:


> I just wanted to say what an enjoyable and interesting thread this has been. I'm sorry to see the OP having issues, but I've liked seeing all the help he has been getting without any of the "debates" that crop up from time to time regarding dosing schemes, etc. in threads like this.


I want to say also thank you . It is a plasure to get practical answers Without contempt or condescension for every word or lack of knowledge of mine or of my quantity. In many similar forums as soon as something gets complicated or someone discovers a lack of knowledge eating him alive or ignoring him. I know the theory but in reality all hapens except what you learned in theory  .
This forum is so special and professional. And all I have to do is listen and try to understand how to apply it. Thank you and please don't leave me alone with all those issues 

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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm just guessing that you probably need to fill the drop checker with a 4 dkH reference solution and then add a few drops of that co2 test bottle?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya
How high is your lighting fixture above the aquarium? I attach cold lights 1” / 2.54 cm above water, and extremely hot metal halides about 6” - 8” / 15 – 20 cm depending on fish behavior. Don’t be afraid to blast it with high light you have 60 cm / 24” tall water column. 

Let’s say if you were to use 2 sets of 2x T5 54W, 12" / 30 cm above water then there was PAR 60 at substrate which is medium intensity. Having only 1 set radiates PAR 30 which can grow only plastic plants and algae. 

For comparison, when my Rotala Wallichii grows up to the top 1” / 2.5 cm it is getting PAR 500 under 250W metal halides. Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Light Calculator

About your drop checker solution I have no idea. For test purposes, can you put one drop of the solution on little baking soda. If it changes colour (maybe blue) then it needs to be mixed with set KH solution first. Did it come maybe with instructions?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> gilya
> How high is your lighting fixture above the aquarium? I attach cold lights 1” / 2.54 cm above water, and extremely hot metal halides about 6” - 8” / 15 – 20 cm depending on fish behavior. Don’t be afraid to blast it with high light you have 60 cm / 24” tall water column.
> 
> Let’s say if you were to use 2 sets of 2x T5 54W, 12" / 30 cm above water then there was PAR 60 at substrate which is medium intensity. Having only 1 set radiates PAR 30 which can grow only plastic plants and algae.
> ...


 When I drop to the checker 2 drops from the aquarium water it changed color from orange to blue

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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> When I drop to the checker 2 drops from the aquarium water it changed color from orange to blue.


 Wobblebonk got it right:


Wobblebonk said:


> I'm just guessing that you probably need to fill the drop checker with a 4 dkH reference solution and then add a few drops of that co2 test bottle?


 You can take 2L Coke bottle, fill it with distilled or RO water and add 0.24 grams of baking soda NaHCO3 to make 4 dKH solution. Or check your tap KH, maybe it is close enough.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

So...I will make 2 liter of 4dkH solution .
Why not less? I take from the 2 liter mix ...10ml ?!? and add 4-5 drops from the orange liquid ? and put them together ?


Edward said:


> Wobblebonk got it right: You can take 2L Coke bottle, fill it with distilled or RO water and add 0.24 grams of baking soda NaHCO3 to make 4 dKH solution. Or check your tap KH, maybe it is close enough.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> So...I will make 2 liter of 4dkH solution .
> Why not less? I take from the 2 liter mix ...10ml ?!? and add 4-5 drops from the orange liquid ? and put them together ?


 Why not less than 2L? The drop checker needs about 5 ml, so if you can measure 0.0006 grams of baking soda go ahead. My scale cannot, so I go with 2L and 0.24 grams of baking soda. 

Once you have the soda dissolved, fill the drop checker with it and then put one drop of the orange liquid in.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Why not less than 2L? The drop checker needs about 5 ml, so if you can measure 0.0006 grams of baking soda go ahead. My scale cannot, so I go with 2L and 0.24 grams of baking soda.
> 
> Once you have the soda dissolved, fill the drop checker with it and then put one drop of the orange liquid in.


I got it LOL 
Thanks

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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Updating that I bought 12 young othochicluses and ... after 5 days in the dark with air stone and a little nitrate with 70% water change before and after ...all the alge were gone .

Continuing the fert routine and will measure values next week....


gilya said:


> I want to say also thank you . It is a plasure to get practical answers Without contempt or condescension for every word or lack of knowledge of mine or of my quantity. In many similar forums as soon as something gets complicated or someone discovers a lack of knowledge eating him alive or ignoring him. I know the theory but in reality all hapens except what you learned in theory  .
> This forum is so special and professional. And all I have to do is listen and try to understand how to apply it. Thank you and please don't leave me alone with all those issues
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> Updating that I bought 12 young othochicluses and ... after 5 days in the dark with air stone and a little nitrate with 70% water change before and after ...all the alge were gone .
> 
> Continuing the fert routine and will measure values next week....


No lights no fertilizer for five days? Plants will not like it and algae will come back. Luckily the Otocinlus will clean it up, if you don’t feed them. 
See, plants need light and food in order to be healthy and be able to destroy algae.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

The 5 days was also cause I was abroad . Now back to routine as you advices me with light and ferts


Edward said:


> No lights no fertilizer for five days? Plants will not like it and algae will come back. Luckily the Otocinlus will clean it up, if you don’t feed them.
> See, plants need light and food in order to be healthy and be able to destroy algae.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Hi
> Can you find your tap water GH and KH levels? This information is needed.
> 
> You say you can change 30 – 50% water every week. Very good, do that.
> ...


So...The DTS meter will be next week... After the 5 days of darkness I started dosing like you advised me (in the table). The drop checker is green after 5 hours light . This are the measurements I did now (before water change).... any conclusions for the next week ? Add more then 10ml from the mix maybe ?









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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Now is a good time to add directly to your aquarium 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) and 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) to help the plants (per 400L/100gal). Then wait about 10 minutes and retest NO3 and PO4. Also continue the daily dose of PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml. 

Some NO3 and PO4 should always be present, not zero.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I allready made a 70% water change and dose PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml. 


Edward said:


> Now is a good time to add directly to your aquarium 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) and 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) to help the plants (per 400L/100gal). Then wait about 10 minutes and retest NO3 and PO4. Also continue the daily dose of PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml.
> 
> Some NO3 and PO4 should always be present, not zero.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

That’s good you can follow post #60.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> That’s good you can follow post #60.


Done 
As I see it....
the phosphate is near the target (around 1 ppm) ... the nitrate is about 5 ppm I think.

What the next step boss  ?
Here are the photos...























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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Excellent,
add 50 drops of PPS-Pro solution #1 in 10 L of tap water and test for NO3, it should read 10 ppm. This will verify your fertilizer and also the test kit colour accuracy. 

If you want, you can test PO4 as well, it should read 1 ppm.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Should I need to add more NO3 to have our target 15 ppm ? Or just test again the aquarium water after 2-3 days to check how much left and calculate the exact use and how much I need to add exactly for the plants to grow well? 


Edward said:


> Excellent,
> add 50 drops of PPS-Pro solution #1 in 10 L of tap water and test for NO3, it should read 10 ppm. This will verify your fertilizer and also the test kit colour accuracy.
> 
> If you want, you can test PO4 as well, it should read 1 ppm.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

What you see is not plant consumption rather it is substrate related and test kit inaccuracy or colour interpretation. This is why it is wise to try what I described in post #64. 

You have very few plants for the space they are in so when you continue the daily dose and have weekly 50% water changes you can expect to have 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE), plus - minus substrate interaction.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Excellent,
> add 50 drops of PPS-Pro solution #1 in 10 L of tap water and test for NO3, it should read 10 ppm. This will verify your fertilizer and also the test kit colour accuracy.
> 
> If you want, you can test PO4 as well, it should read 1 ppm.


According to post 64 ... 
50 drops equal to 2.5mL or 2mL plus 10 drops ? 



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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I need to expect around 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE), plus - minus substrate interaction.

And this is due to the fact I add yesterday 10gram of NO3 and 1 gram of PO4 Plus the daily dosing ? 

Or daily dosing the Pro PPS sulotion 1 and 2 all week make it happens ...?

Sorry .. but I'm trying to do the math and I miss something ( but maybe it is based on your experience and not on math [emoji848])
Many thanks for your help ...








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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> According to post 64 ...
> 50 drops equal to 2.5mL or 2mL plus 10 drops ?


 Yes.


gilya said:


> I need to expect around 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE), plus - minus substrate interaction.
> 
> And this is due to the fact I add yesterday 10gram of NO3 and 1 gram of PO4 Plus the daily dosing ?
> 
> Or daily dosing the Pro PPS sulotion 1 and 2 all week make it happens ...?


 It has nothing to do with the extra one time addition of 10 grams KNO3 and 1 gram KH2PO4 which was to help the plants to get nutrients faster. 

The expected 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE) is based on weekly addition of 50% water with daily addition of PPS-Pro regular dosage as per table. For example NO3, every week is added:

7 x 1 ppm (per 100% water) = 7 ppm. However, only 50% of water is added so the concentration is 2 x 7 = 14 ppm.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I know you right but for [emoji222] like me ...
Little diving if you have time ...
7 x 1 ppm (per 100% water) = 7 ppm.

#####so far so good#####

50% of water change ... brings less of parts per million to exist in water (before dosing on the 8th day) ...

So... it spouse to be 3.5 ppm ...no ?

After dosing more 7 ppm (during the other week) we will get 3.5+7= 10.5 ppm ? And not 2 x 7 = 14 ppm.

What I'm missing? 


Edward said:


> Yes. It has nothing to do with the extra one time addition of 10 grams KNO3 and 1 gram KH2PO4 which was to help the plants to get nutrients faster.
> 
> The expected 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE) is based on weekly addition of 50% water with daily addition of PPS-Pro regular dosage as per table. For example NO3, every week is added:
> 
> 7 x 1 ppm (per 100% water) = 7 ppm. However, only 50% of water is added so the concentration is 2 x 7 = 14 ppm.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

What if we put it this way? 

Q. What is being added to the aquarium? 
A. Water with NO3 at 14 ppm. 

Q. Why 14 ppm?
A. Because what fertilizer quantity makes 7 ppm in 100 gall makes 14 ppm in 50 gall. Half water double the concentration. 

Q. So it is like doing water changes with tap that has 14 ppm NO3 and we are not using any fertilizers.
A. That’s correct.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

WOW .... I have so much to learn ....thanks .
Just when I thought I'm starting get the idea ..... 
I guess I need to do more homework [emoji849]


Edward said:


> What if we put it this way?
> 
> Q. What is being added to the aquarium?
> A. Water with NO3 at 14 ppm.
> ...


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I will not be at home 5 days. 
What quantities I need dose in advance?


gilya said:


> WOW .... I have so much to learn ....thanks .
> Just when I thought I'm starting get the idea .....
> I guess I need to do more homework [emoji849]
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Hopefully lights and CO2 stays on as usual this time? 
I would make sure there is 10 -15 ppm NO3 and 1 ppm PO4 in the water column and that’s about it. When you come back continue as usual, they should be fine.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

No darkness this time
Thanks a lot for your help


Edward said:


> Hopefully lights and CO2 stays on as usual this time?
> I would make sure there is 10 -15 ppm NO3 and 1 ppm PO4 in the water column and that’s about it. When you come back continue as usual, they should be fine.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

gilya said:


> No darkness this time
> Thanks a lot for your help
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


Little worried because algee back in town....






























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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> Little worried because algee back in town....


 Yes, it looks really bad. We still don’t know your tap NO3, PO4, GH, KH and TDS, do we?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Yes, it looks really bad. We still don’t know your tap NO3, PO4, GH, KH and TDS, do we?


Is this Ramshorn snails ?









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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

gilya said:


> Is this Ramshorn snails ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, mini ramshorn. They will stay that small, and they will never stand their shell up vertical - it will always drag flat behind them.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Should they do the job with algee?


natemcnutty said:


> Yes, mini ramshorn. They will stay that small, and they will never stand their shell up vertical - it will always drag flat behind them.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

gilya said:


> Should they do the job with algee?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920C using Tapatalk


They will eat algae, but due to small size, it won't be all that much. The one advantage to them is that they do eat hair algae that I haven't seen other snails touch.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

I have nearly 100 of them ...
They came out of nowhere. But after they will multiply and stop algee. My cannibal Helena will stop them 


natemcnutty said:


> They will eat algae, but due to small size, it won't be all that much. The one advantage to them is that they do eat hair algae that I haven't seen other snails touch.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Judging by your pictures those newly grown leaves look clean and healthy. The old infested leaves should be removed while leaving no less than two or three per plant. If you can now generate more plants by cuttings the better and later you can get rid of them if you like. 

As for the BBA black beard algae on rocks, it will not go away on its own. It has to be removed manually, by scrubbing, hydroxide peroxide H2O2 or boiling. At this time you need to do massive 90% water changes at least twice a week or more, and never skip the daily dose. 

If those snails will do the job I don’t know, let’s hope they do. Don’t be afraid of their numbers as it is self-regulated by available food. If they multiply and you have more of them then it indicates there is something they can help with. Just make sure they don’t exist on fish food as that would be counterproductive.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Yes, it looks really bad. We still don’t know your tap NO3, PO4, GH, KH and TDS, do we?


 So....
DTS is in the house ....
All measurement made before weekly water change .
Dosing daily .
Water 380ppm 808micro 
Phosphate ..
I don't really understand the color on the scale.
Ammonia 0
Nitrate


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I would recommend a large water change and front load ferts to a desired level with the addition of the new water.

TDS/conductivity is too high IMO.
Are stones/substrate dissolving in your tank?

Nitrate & phosphate at "zero" will not provide good plant growth.

GH & KH tests?


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

phosphate is not zero.
The color looks like gray water.
I made a massive water change


Maryland Guppy said:


> I would recommend a large water change and front load ferts to a desired level with the addition of the new water.
> 
> TDS/conductivity is too high IMO.
> Are stones/substrate dissolving in your tank?
> ...


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

From the pic the phosphate test doesn't seem to have any hint of blue in it?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Great, 
so your aquarium TDS before weekly water change is 380 ppm / 808 µS. This information will have meaning when we know your tap values as well. It is a comparison measurement tool.

As for the other test results, testing for ammonia is not really needed because the plants will use it up, it is their most favorite nitrogen nutrient format. The PO4 and NO3 readings of zero are alarming so you need to get this under control. Have you tried to do the test described in post #64?

Post #64:
_*Add 50 drops of PPS-Pro solution #1 in 10 L of tap water and test for NO3, it should read 10 ppm. This will verify your fertilizer and also the test kit colour accuracy. If you want, you can test PO4 as well, it should read 1 ppm.*_

When the above test kit verification works then follow post #60 until the aquarium reads some NO3 and PO4. 

Post #60:
*Now is a good time to add directly to your aquarium 15 ppm NO3 (10 grams KNO3) and 1.7 ppm PO4 (1 gram KH2PO4) to help the plants (per 400L/100gal). Then wait about 10 minutes and retest NO3 and PO4. Also continue the daily dose of PPS-Pro solution #1 macros 10 ml and #2 micros 5 ml. Some NO3 and PO4 should always be present, not zero.*

Additionally, when dealing with BBA clean filter and flow are important. Whatever it takes, it needs to be clean now even if it has to be done twice a week.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Great,
> so your aquarium TDS before weekly water change is 380 ppm / 808 µS. This information will have meaning when we know your tap values as well. It is a comparison measurement tool.
> 
> As for the other test results, testing for ammonia is not really needed because the plants will use it up, it is their most favorite nitrogen nutrient format. The PO4 and NO3 readings of zero are alarming so you need to get this under control. Have you tried to do the test described in post #64?
> ...


tap value:
617micro 290 ppm



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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Tap
290ppm / 617 µS

Aquarium
380 ppm / 808 µS

This means that the difference is 90 ppm / 191 µS which indicate a pretty clean system in terms of inorganic elements such as GH and fertilizers. It should be approximately tap + 50 ppm or + 100 µS considering the fertilization method. TDS meters do not detect organic contaminants well which you are trying to flush out now by doing water changes. 

Additionally, the tap water is most likely hard with high GH, KH and pH.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

The tap water hard and I see fur (calcium I think) all over the lights base and over the aquarium glass .
Can I do something except of osmosis filter? 
Attaching picture of my aquarium...still having algee but I think I am on the right way ... 

More plants more light on the right side and more water changing and then I think I will start to enjoy the hobby









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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Estimative index dosing for your size tank would be my way forward with increased plant mass/light energy. Would much rather provide a bit of excess nutrient availability than try to determine how much plant's might use in a day as some methods might.
The dry powder's or mineral salt's are stupid cheap compared with replacing poorly performing plants.
Would put away TDS meter's and or test kit's and feed plants and change water out weekly for benefits of the fishes and the plants also.
Just sayin.
Can worry bout fine tuning fertilizer delivery later if you must,but if nutrient's are readily available as light energy and plant growth demand,and assuming light energy is not too much for too long,only leaves CO2 as primary player of rate of growth/health .(opinion)
Estimative index often described as dosing for dummies is perhaps to be considered till you begin down the rabbit hole of only trying to provide for daily need's in high energy tanks with uber light energy.
My two cents.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Welcome back gilya
It does look better since we changed a few things. 

We increased light from PAR 30 to PAR 60, to 2 sets of 2x T5 54W. 
We changed photoperiod from 2 hours morning and 4 hours evening to 7 hours a day.
We didn’t have enough CO2.
We didn’t have KH solution in drop checker.
We didn’t have algae cleaning crew.
We increased water changes from 30% to + 50% weekly.
We didn’t have plant nutrients or fertilizer. 
We have now 14 ppm NO3, 1.4 ppm PO4, 18 ppm K, 1.4 ppm Mg, 0.7 ppm Fe(TE)

To continue, can you please test your aquarium NO3, PO4 and TDS, and tap TDS? If your NO3 or PO4 test reads zero follow post #64 above. Sometimes the NO3 test solutions need a strong shake to get proper readings. 

To answer your question, the only way to remove calcium is RO unit. I recommend you go with the water you have available and keep it simple.


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Edward said:


> Welcome back gilya
> It does look better since we changed a few things.
> 
> We increased light from PAR 30 to PAR 60, to 2 sets of 2x T5 54W.
> ...


Just updating....
After 2 months ... far away from my target , but still on the road...
















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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

The tank is looking very nice!


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## gilya (Jun 10, 2018)

Ken Keating1 said:


> The tank is looking very nice!


Algee on the rocks and over the surface....but I guess it will be fine later on

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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Funny, i reviewed the photo from a small screen device, I didn't even notice the algae!


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

gilya said:


> Algee on the rocks and over the surface....but I guess it will be fine later on


 What kind of algae?


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