# Sick Angelfish Question



## ngrubich (Nov 29, 2011)

Are the white patches slimy looking? If so, I'm of no help: I had a batch of angels get that and they all died on me within a couple days.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Look at a lot of pictures of Columnaris. 
This is a bacteria that can attack the fish anywhere, including fins, and looks like white to grey patches. 
Not sure what the head shaking is about, though.


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## Nestle_ (Jul 4, 2013)

sounds like a fungus.
pimafix, aquarium salt, and raised temp's will all help. follow the pimafix by the EXACT directions. and get extra aeration into the tank.
don't feed them for a few days, and do a big water change before starting to give the pimafix.


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

If it is bacterial raising the temp will make it worse. I would not use pimafix that's for sure. Post a pic.


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

Easy with the salt, are all fish eating?
Pictures would help, start with large water changes
You might need to treat the whole tank, if columnaris you would see other fish having problems, keep an eye.
I would look into getting jungle labs parasite clear tabs, just to have on hand. Are you feeding frozen food, any changes to the tank, any new fish?


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

DavidZ said:


> Easy with the salt, are all fish eating?
> Pictures would help, start with large water changes
> You might need to treat the whole tank, if columnaris you would see other fish having problems, keep an eye.
> I would look into getting jungle labs parasite clear tabs, just to have on hand. Are you feeding frozen food, any changes to the tank, any new fish?


I added a couple rocks to the tank, however all added rocks have been in this tank before at some point in time in the last year. I also added a pair of rams a week ago(likely culprit.) The rams of course are the picture of health and actually began spawning as soon as they got in the tank. My rummies are fine, and my single discus fish is doing just fine.. All the typically more delicate fish are unaffected!

So possibly looking into parasite clear tabs. I was already prepared to add salt, I'm always a bit hesitant to changing multiple conditions and tinkering with temperature since a healthy discus really shouldn't be messed with too much.. But I realize discus don't mind very high temps.

I plan on adding two table spoons of Salt to this 33 Gallon tank, and depending on how everyone's looking a slight raise in temperature. They are currently at 85. Question, for the Aquarium salt. I was going to add about 2 table spoons which is less than the box recommended dosage(6 tablespoons) for 33 gallons, and I then need to follow this treatment by a water change? Because the salt needs to be removed as it does not evaporate or filter out? Should I just give him an individual salt bath? If I believe this is bacterial related does that mean no temp raise?

Once again, I appreciate the help all. This angelfish is really nice, and his body is still physically strong. However for the first time ever he isn't eating and it is obvious to me he's begun down a bad path. Best-


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

DavidZ said:


> Easy with the salt, are all fish eating?
> Pictures would help, start with large water changes
> You might need to treat the whole tank, if columnaris you would see other fish having problems, keep an eye.
> I would look into getting jungle labs parasite clear tabs, just to have on hand. Are you feeding frozen food, any changes to the tank, any new fish?


And yes all the other fish are eating very well, I think the number one thing I'm seeing that's out of place is he appears restless. Bobbing forward then back, then giving a twitch, then short darting to the left, then forward then back, then shaking his head in an unnatural way. In the past he's moved with Discus like grace and just swam calmly and deliberately. I think an even more untrained eye might not even notice or think anything wrong with him. But I know he doesn't typically swim this way, plus he usually will occasionally have a little dirty look or chase with the discus back and forth(nothing harmful) or shoo the rams, he's not acknowleding them or eating. Thanks again all. A picture would almost appear healthy except for the light patchiness on his scales and tail fin and somewhat lowered dorsal fin, it's more a combination of behavior and appearance. Thanks again all for at least bouncing ideas off me!


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

Okay, I just read up on Columnaris and I have to say I think this is the issue. I've been reading about treatments and like many situations there are a multitutde of different people citing success with completely different approaches. It appears however a Salt Bath is the must of this sort of treatment.

I haven't done a salt bath before. The recommended dosage is 2 tablespoons for every 10 gallons. I have a 1 gallon and a 2 gallon bucket. Can I just add the equivalent dosage amount and drop the angel in their for 2 minutes for the salt bath? Then reintroduce him to the tank? If I had a second set up, I would immedaitely quarantine him, however I don't.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

DrewWoodside said:


> Okay, I just read up on Columnaris and I have to say I think this is the issue. I've been reading about treatments and like many situations there are a multitutde of different people citing success with completely different approaches. It appears however a Salt Bath is the must of this sort of treatment.
> 
> I haven't done a salt bath before. The recommended dosage is 2 tablespoons for every 10 gallons. I have a 1 gallon and a 2 gallon bucket. Can I just add the equivalent dosage amount and drop the angel in their for 2 minutes for the salt bath? Then reintroduce him to the tank? If I had a second set up, I would immedaitely quarantine him, however I don't.


Sorry no fish doctor but.. I'd be very careful in diagnosing this.
When fish are infected with this pathogen, the following signs can be anticipated:


> Skin
> There will be necrotic lesions on the skin, which often are white/gray coloured with an edging of red. These will quickly in one to two days, transform into ulcers with have an orange/yellow colour, caused by the bacteria decaying the underlying tissue.
> 
> Gills
> ...


To me, w/ the behavioral changes seems more like Ich.. 
And Ich and bacterial diseases are really oppositely treated.

but that is shooting from the hip.. Personally I'd start w/ an antibiotic treatment. 
Best case, it will kill the columnaris, wost case it may treat any secondary infections accompanying the ich. 
Fast and less likely to make things worse......A heater and a bucket make a fair "quarantine" tank..

you stated you introduced new fish 2 weeks ago.. right? Doesn't matter if the "look" healthy, things can change.


> Salt grain = ich
> fuzzy patch = columnaris


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=114925

V


> isually the difference between ich and columnaris is pretty easy to see. Ich looks like the fish has been sprinkled with grains of salt while Columnaris is more patchy. Ich can cause frayed fins also because the parasite likes to attach to the fins and this allows an entry for bacteria. Bacterial infections will often accompany an ich outbreak.


Read more: http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/...s/ich-fin-rot-columnaris-59494/#ixzz2fdn5Sxux


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

Yeah, I don't see any visible signs of ich just yet. I am going to be monitoring this closely.

Can anyone advise a best way to go about a salt treatment in the event I go that route?

As of now I am either going to drop the angel in a bucket for a brief minute or two or I'm going to add a small amount of salt to the entire tank and filter it out soon after. Best-


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## DavidZ (Nov 17, 2009)

I wouldn't do a thing, if the rest of the fish are fine
Do you have a QT tank?
I don't see it being ich
specially adding the salt, why ???


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

DavidZ said:


> I wouldn't do a thing, if the rest of the fish are fine
> Do you have a QT tank?
> I don't see it being ich
> specially adding the salt, why ???


I don't have a QT Tank, in an apt in NYC so I'm kind of pushing my luck even having a tank! The rest of the fish are fine and it is not ich. However the angel fish is still not recovered. He's stopped twitching and swimming erratically and replaced that with mostly listless behavior and this morning I've noticed he's been hanging out a lot by the airstone. Also, the base of one of his left flipper fin was red/blood at the base of it. 

I'm leaning towards a bacterial infection over fungus, but this isn't really routed in much knowledge. Other than QTing him anyone wanna take a last stab at a possible issue? I know no one likes this medicine, but I'm thinking of adding some bacterial treatment to the tank. No one likes it, but Melafix actually saved a fish for me once..


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## Vin (Apr 10, 2013)

Hey, not sure how much help I can give but here it is.

More about columnaris:
http://www.myaquariumclub.com/columnaris-and-what-i-have-learned...-1689.html

Its not true that it spreads fast on every occasion. Several strains exist.

Fungus doesnt actually happen on its own, I mean its not the root cause of a problem. Normally you will get fungus on an open wound or following a bacterial problem.

Pimafix and Melafix are first line treatments (if you wanna call them treatments). Interesting articles out there about these products, won't link them but you can find them with minimal research.

That head shaking behaviour is similar to flashing. Its just an indication of something wrong but it can also happen with a change in PH during a water change. If it wasn't for the white patches could be parasites.

I think we are all scared of columnaris so bad we tend to point in that direction everytime something white appears. Is it possible the white patches are scratches that are healing? 

Its hard to find a cause with the symptoms you describe. Though slimy white patches are possibly an indication of columnaris.

Pictures would help also 

How is it evolving?

Whats your tank maintenance like?

Is he eating ?

Remember if you do decide to treat with an antibiotic to do the full treatment. And if you add salt be prepared to lose some plants.


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

In a last ditch effort I just purchased some Erythromycin. Now I look at the angel and I'm noticing a white string coming from his gill. I imagine this should tell what the real issue is. What are the possibilities of what this is? The String doesn't seem to be moving on it's own but it's hard to tell since it's in motion from the angel's moving gill. Please any help would be great!



Vin said:


> Hey, not sure how much help I can give but here it is.
> 
> More about columnaris:
> http://www.myaquariumclub.com/columnaris-and-what-i-have-learned...-1689.html
> ...


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

Reading up more and this looks like flukes, all of the below are true. So I need an anti parasite medicine.. 

Fish will appear lethargic, and swimming will become intermittent as the fish will tire very easily. Breathing at the surface, or just stationary "hanging" at the surface will be observed, as the fish try's to obtain sufficient oxygen when the gills are badly infested.

Fins can become clamped and/or ragged . Often small spots of blood may be observed at the base of the fins.


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## Vin (Apr 10, 2013)

Best diagnosis yet. Go for it. No idea how to treat parasites though. Paraguard maybe ?


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

I love how it was only once I spent 14 bucks on the wrong medicine that it immediately became clear what the culprit was. This thread reads like a clueless detective uncovering something obvious. The trick is a lot of the residual effects of Gill Flukes kind of sounds like a bacterial infection with how the fins and behavior are affected.

But upon seeing the strings from the angelfishes gills it kind of brought together all the stages he's gone through with the flashing, then listlessness, then hanging by surface heavy breathing, blood at base of fin, clamping etc etc. 

I don't know if it's the best solution, but I purchased Tetra Parasite Guard. It's the only thing they had at my nearby lfs and I want to get on curing asap. Thanks for the input everyone, definitely helps to have ideas bouncing around when putting it all together. Now lets see if the treatment works! It would be real sad to lose an angelfish like this, they are so hardy once established! 



Vin said:


> Best diagnosis yet. Go for it. No idea how to treat parasites though. Paraguard maybe ?


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

If it is flukes you are screwed, very hard to eradicate. But they are not that common. You confirm flukes by scraping the Gill plate and looking under a microscope for the parasite. Could be bacterial Gill infection. Mostly the same symptoms. For Gill flukes use flubendazole in dmso or delos powder. For Gill infection use furan 2 or kanamyacin.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code


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## DrewWoodside (Apr 1, 2008)

Embarassed and sad to say, I woke up this morning and the angelfish had passed. He looked to be in great shape last night save for his right flipper fin which had suffered a bit. Obviously his breathing had taken a great toll. Anyway, the issue now is I need to make sure this doesn't continue on and spread with the other fish in the tank.

What should I treat the tank with to clear the tank of any parasites or what have you? I've already started the parasite guard which has praziquantel as the main active ingredient. Can anyone confirm this will help with ridding possible gill flukes/parasites from the tank or confirm this is a mistake to continue treatment with? Once again thanks all for the info-



lipadj46 said:


> If it is flukes you are screwed, very hard to eradicate. But they are not that common. You confirm flukes by scraping the Gill plate and looking under a microscope for the parasite. Could be bacterial Gill infection. Mostly the same symptoms. For Gill flukes use flubendazole in dmso or delos powder. For Gill infection use furan 2 or kanamyacin.
> 
> sent from an undisclosed location using morse code


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

DrewWoodside said:


> Embarassed and sad to say, I woke up this morning and the angelfish had passed. He looked to be in great shape last night save for his right flipper fin which had suffered a bit. Obviously his breathing had taken a great toll. Anyway, the issue now is I need to make sure this doesn't continue on and spread with the other fish in the tank.
> 
> What should I treat the tank with to clear the tank of any parasites or what have you? I've already started the parasite guard which has praziquantel as the main active ingredient. Can anyone confirm this will help with ridding possible gill flukes/parasites from the tank or confirm this is a mistake to continue treatment with? Once again thanks all for the info-


Others suggestion of treatment...........
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/dan_flukes.html


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## Luminescent (Sep 13, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> Others suggestion of treatment...........
> http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/dan_flukes.html


If you are very serious about this get a UV light. If it was flukes you could have recurring probs for a long time. Head-shaking and scratching are almost always parasitical.


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## Newman (Jul 3, 2010)

I'd say try some medicine dips in a bucket. try bacterial and fungal.
also how do you have one discus in the tank in with one angelfish??


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