# Needle Wheel CO2 Diffusion/ Fractionating impeller Diffusion....



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I received some new needle wheel pumps from Danner.
They come stock with Venturi assembly for easy set up.
I modified this pump to work with a current project.

So far it throws out tons of mist and is very simple to set up. I wanted to get other peoples thoughts on needle wheels versus Mazzei loops.
I use both and I have to say this needle wheel pump is sweet and a million times easier to use.









Let me know what you folks think..

Regards, Orlando


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## Left C

The plumbing looks far simpler. Does the CO2 enter where the brass part is? I can't tell much from the picture.

Will you provide a link to it's site?


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## CL

Looks a hecka lot simpler!


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## plantbrain

It(needle wheel) also requires less energy.

Venturi works on pressure differentials, the needle wheel on mechanical dwell time to chop up the bubbles.

So for lower pressure applications, typical for us, this is likely a nice option.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I don't have any links to the pump. The only difference is the venturi assembly.
I removed the stock venturi and built my own with pop fittings. Thats the yellow/silver thing my tubing connects to.

Yes, its way easy to install and will come in many pump sizes.. 

-O


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## JDowns

Is that the Mag Drive with fractionating impeller?

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~DN1161~tab~1.html

I've thought about trying out one of those. :thumbsup:


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## epicfish

I use a Sedra Needlewheel pump myself.

http://afishybusiness.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=178


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## tazcrash69

Red Sea has one also that's used on their skimmers: 
http://www.aquariumguys.com/berlinturbo3.html

But it needs to be used in a sump. 

But I like the look of that mag one.


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## eyebeatbadgers

I'm a big fan of my needlewheel setup, and will use it again in the future. Can beat the simplicity, price, and performance you get with them.


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## helgymatt

Hmmm...just sold my mazzei because I didn't like it. Maybe this would be better? It looks like it would fit well in my system. Are they desinged to be stand alone CO2 misters/diffusers?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

They are designed to be used in DIY application according to Danner. I think it works great so far. 

- O


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

JDowns said:


> Is that the Mag Drive with fractionating impeller?
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~DN1161~tab~1.html
> 
> I've thought about trying out one of those. :thumbsup:



Thats it! They make a whole selection of sizes. And you can remove the needle wheel and add more fractionating material such as mesh or SS wire.

-O


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## epicfish

Orlando said:


> Thats it! They make a whole selection of sizes. And you can remove the needle wheel and add more fractionating material such as mesh or SS wire.
> 
> -O


Why remove the needle wheel impeller? Just mesh mod the impeller and you get even better fractionation.


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## speakerguy

I advocated needle wheels in the mazzei thread and got shot down quickly. 

Don't know why, the reefers recognized the superiority of needle wheels over venturis a long time ago.


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## epicfish

speakerguy said:


> I advocated needle wheels in the mazzei thread and got shot down quickly.
> 
> Don't know why, the reefers recognized the superiority of needle wheels over venturis a long time ago.


Because a skimmer design requires certain ranges of flow rates and pressures that are out of the scope of venturis whereas a CO2 misting system can support higher pressures and high flow rates.


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## SPC

I have been using this pump http://www.premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/GEN-X1000-MOD.html for about 6 months now. The pump sits in my sump and runs directly into the return pump.

I don't know first hand if it makes the same type of mist as the Mazzei, but it does supply enough CO2 mist for my 180 with a 50 gallon sump. 




epicfish said:


> Because a skimmer design requires certain ranges of flow rates and pressures that are out of the scope of venturis whereas a CO2 misting system can support higher pressures and high flow rates.


I don't follow you here, epicfish. If the Needlewheel pump is sufficient at meeting the CO2 requirements for a planted tank, then why would a "higher pressure and high flow rate" situation be called for? Example, I can run my 4 foot double Beckett skimmer powered by the largest Iwaki made on my (former) reef tank, but if I could get adequate results from a smaller skimmer, then what would be the reason for running this large pump/skimmer?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

That is a nice pump SPC  I bet your tank glows nice and green.

Regards, Orlando


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## epicfish

SPC said:


> I don't follow you here, epicfish. If the Needlewheel pump is sufficient at meeting the CO2 requirements for a planted tank, then why would a "higher pressure and high flow rate" situation be called for? Example, I can run my 4 foot double Beckett skimmer powered by the largest Iwaki made on my (former) reef tank, but if I could get adequate results from a smaller skimmer, then what would be the reason for running this large pump/skimmer?


The previous poster stated that reefers recognized the superiority of needle wheels over venturis a long time ago.

I believe the reason is because due to skimmer design, you cannot have flow rates high enough to power a venturi for the injection of air for fractionation of organic compounds to skim. 

Planted tank aquaria equipment has evolved separately from saltwater/reef equipment due to the different functional requirements. Although both methods (NW & venturi) can be used to inject CO2 into a planted aquarium, it's impractical to even consider a venturi-type setup for an efficient skimmer design.

CO2 injection for larger and larger tanks has become more mainstream/widespread only more recently. In the past, diffusers have been adequate for small tanks. Reactors were used with medium sized tanks with great success.

For what it's worth, I've measured dissolved CO2 levels in a NW setup vs. a venturi setup and the venturi setup provides more dissolved CO2 at the output whereas an equivalent NW setup produces more gaseous CO2 bubbles. Both setups were on the same tank and measured with the same meter.


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## speakerguy

> I believe the reason is because due to skimmer design, you cannot have flow rates high enough to power a venturi for the injection of air for fractionation of organic compounds to skim.


Have you seen the flow rates of some of the larger skimmers? Deltec has needle wheel skimmers that use six Eheim 1260's. A single 1260 is a very common pump to find on more normally-sized models. 

Needle wheels have won out due to the extremely small bubble size they can make, as well as the sheer volume of air they can pull in. We don't need the sheer volume of air in planted tanks. I wonder what a Maxi-jet 1200 with a simple mesh wheel mod would do for CO2 diffusion, especially if you put it in some kind of recirculating loop.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I do like the aerating factor a needle wheel can add when co2 is off.

Modding any impeller with mesh would work very well for small tanks. I think Hydor makes a mini pump similar to this.


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## epicfish

speakerguy said:


> Have you seen the flow rates of some of the larger skimmers? Deltec has needle wheel skimmers that use six Eheim 1260's. A single 1260 is a very common pump to find on more normally-sized models.


Yes, I have two skimmers that use 1262's myself, and one that uses an ATI-Sicce pump.



speakerguy said:


> Needle wheels have won out due to the extremely small bubble size they can make, as well as the sheer volume of air they can pull in. We don't need the sheer volume of air in planted tanks. I wonder what a Maxi-jet 1200 with a simple mesh wheel mod would do for CO2 diffusion, especially if you put it in some kind of recirculating loop.


Depends on which of school of though you're subscribing to and whether you like the look of fine microbubbles in your tank, one pass of the CO2 through a NW pump may be enough to get gaseous bubbles dispersed within your tank without having the water look "dirty".


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## helgymatt

Orlando said:


> I do like the aerating factor a needle wheel can add when co2 is off.
> 
> Modding any impeller with mesh would work very well for small tanks. I think Hydor makes a mini pump similar to this.


Someone describe "modding with mesh" please.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Im sure you could Google Image the mod. Its just removing the impeller and winding mesh or ss wire throughout the fractionating impeller head,


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## epicfish

Zip-tying pieces of (usually) Emkamat mesh to your impeller so that air (or CO2 in this case) is broken up into smaller bubbles much more efficiently.

Here's a guide/how-to to explain it a bit more: http://www.newengland.reefbuilders....sh-mod-sedra-pump-euroreef-skimmer-100-a.html


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## speakerguy

> Yes, I have two skimmers that use 1262's myself, and one that uses an ATI-Sicce pump.


You've probably got some nice reefs there 

Oh, and the other thing is high efficiency with the NW skimmers. Like air flow not a concern for planted tanks. I guess it is just a question of how fine will a mazzei mist vs. some type of NW pump in an optimal configuration?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Id like to see pics of folks plumbed up NW pumps if you have any..

- O


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## Minsc

Orlando said:


> Id like to see pics of folks plumbed up NW pumps if you have any..
> 
> - O


I will be able to provide pics of how to and how to not plumb a Gen-X 1000 soon.

Assuming of course I can figure out the right way to do it...


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## eyebeatbadgers

Minsc said:


> I will be able to provide pics of how to and how to not plumb a Gen-X 1000 soon.
> 
> Assuming of course I can figure out the right way to do it...


How not to, psh, been there, done that. I covered it all in my 29 gallon thread in my signature. Here's the highlights:

How *TO* do it:









How *NOT* to do it:








What you don't see there is the five gallons of water I'm swimming in. Be careful with the Gen-X pumps, the face plate twists off. So don't plumb it with any constant torsional pressure on the output nozzle!!!!

How I originally thought I was going to do things:









However, my logic = fail:









I got this much flow when doing it the wrong way :








The wrong way plumbed up looked like this







Similar, but wrong. Don't fail kids, do it right.
So, don't do it the wrong way. Do it the right way. 

That being said, when done correctly, it boosts the filter's performance quite a bit, is very quiet, and is efficient as all get out. I love this setup


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Minsc said:


> I will be able to provide pics of how to and how to not plumb a Gen-X 1000 soon.
> 
> Assuming of course I can figure out the right way to do it...


I find plumbing these pumps much easier then conventional mazzei type setups. Even those are pretty easy.

Cheers, O


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## helgymatt

epicfish said:


> Zip-tying pieces of (usually) Emkamat mesh to your impeller so that air (or CO2 in this case) is broken up into smaller bubbles much more efficiently.
> 
> Here's a guide/how-to to explain it a bit more: http://www.newengland.reefbuilders.com/diy-fish-rooms-guts-reefing/3461-needle-wheel-mesh-mod-sedra-pump-euroreef-skimmer-100-a.html


Thanks for the link! It looks fairly simple. 



eyebeatbadgers said:


> How *NOT* to do it:


Ohhh man, it looks like you had a nice mess on your hands there:icon_eek:


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## ZID ZULANDER

These pumps were just released by Danner about 2 months ago. They have been in the works since last year. They were suppose to be used for protien skimmers to replace the pumps that go bad. Danner offers the units from Mag 250 up to the Mag 1800. They can be used either in sump or in line without buying additional parts. I will add this to the list of applications for this unit.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

ZID ZULANDER said:


> These pumps were just released by Danner about 2 months ago. They have been in the works since last year. They were suppose to be used for protien skimmers to replace the pumps that go bad. Danner offers the units from Mag 250 up to the Mag 1800. They can be used either in sump or in line without buying additional parts. I will add this to the list of applications for this unit.


Yeah, we've been waiting on these pumps for some time now. Finally we were able to get the whole line up in-stock. I think they are starting t grow on me.
We are still going through some trial and error with these pumps as far as set up go's.


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## Minsc

Orlando said:


> I find plumbing these pumps much easier then conventional mazzei type setups. Even those are pretty easy.
> 
> Cheers, O


Nothing about my tanks is ever, ever easy. I'm shocked Eyebeatbadgers managed to find a disaster that didn't happen to me:icon_eek:

I've finally realized the padding between my pump and stand was inadequate, and that is why the pump has sounded like someone has been running a 2hp air compressor in my living room for a week now.

Now my pump is spitting out bubbles whenever it is on, regardless of if it is being fed CO2 or not.


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## ZID ZULANDER

Orlando said:


> Yeah, we've been waiting on these pumps for some time now. Finally we were able to get the whole line up in-stock. I think they are starting t grow on me.
> We are still going through some trial and error with these pumps as far as set up go's.


Let me know if you have any suggestions. I will pass them along. Are you buying at a distributor level or dealer?


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## helgymatt

Minsc said:


> Now my pump is spitting out bubbles whenever it is on, regardless of if it is being fed CO2 or not.


Is this a needle wheel pump or mazzei?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Sounds like you have a mazzei? Or do you also use NW?


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## helgymatt

Orlando said:


> Sounds like you have a mazzei? Or do you also use NW?


beat ya to it


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Dang!


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## Minsc

Gen-X 1000 needlewheel pump run in line with an XP3. It pretty much doubles the output of the filter, so I'm guessing around 400+ gph through the thing.


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## epicfish

Minsc said:


> Gen-X 1000 needlewheel pump run in line with an XP3. It pretty much doubles the output of the filter, so I'm guessing around 400+ gph through the thing.


Have you checked for leaks anywhere in your tubing? It can cause air to leak into the system.


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## Minsc

epicfish said:


> Have you checked for leaks anywhere in your tubing? It can cause air to leak into the system.


I've been checking by jamming my wife's kneaded eraser around the connections one by one. Nothing yet, but I have cracked my head on the stand a few times. That means troubleshooting is over and it's time for beer.

Despite a couple bumps in the road, I'm convinced this is a great technique for adding CO2. Added circulation, nice small bubbles, nothing in the tank, no/minimal cleaning, and no glass to break!


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## Tim S

> Gen-X 1000 needlewheel pump run in line with an XP3. It pretty much doubles the output of the filter, so I'm guessing around 400+ gph through the thing.


Is the Gen-X 1000 on the intake pushing through or on the output sucking through? I cant imagine all that CO2 being great for the internals of the xp3.


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## Minsc

Tim S said:


> Is the Gen-X 1000 on the intake pushing through or on the output sucking through? I cant imagine all that CO2 being great for the internals of the xp3.


It is on the output side. The idea is to add microbubbles to the tank, and pushing them through the filter would likely fully dissolve them in the filter media. The shape of impeller used in our canister filters and powerheads allows water to flow through the device even when it is off, so they can be used in line with each other.

Anyway, the bubbles seem to be gone today, so I guess I did something right?
Time will tell...


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## SPC

epicfish said:


> The previous poster stated that reefers recognized the superiority of needle wheels over venturis a long time ago.
> 
> I believe the reason is because due to skimmer design, you cannot have flow rates high enough to power a venturi for the injection of air for fractionation of organic compounds to skim.


Sorry for the late response, Epic, I got sidetracked.

I am still not real sure what your point is? Many reefers still use Venturi (Beckett) style skimmers and have no problem with producing enough power to run them. What am I missing here?

*Planted tank aquaria equipment has evolved separately from saltwater/reef equipment due to the different functional requirements. Although both methods (NW & venturi) can be used to inject CO2 into a planted aquarium, it's impractical to even consider a venturi-type setup for an efficient skimmer design.*

Impractical for who? A reefer?

*For what it's worth, I've measured dissolved CO2 levels in a NW setup vs. a venturi setup and the venturi setup provides more dissolved CO2 at the output whereas an equivalent NW setup produces more gaseous CO2 bubbles. Both setups were on the same tank and measured with the same meter. *

Did you measure the CO2 levels at any other locations in the tank?

How does the measuring device (CO2 meter, drop checker?) distinguish between disolved CO2 and CO2 bubbles? It is my understanding that CO2 is disolved rather quickly in water, so much so that I have often wondered what the actual ratio of CO2 is to other possible gases that make up this mist.

Steve


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## SPC

Solubility of CO2 thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ubility-experiment-photos-video-evidence.html


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## Left C

I know that back in Dec. 05 Tom Barr mentioned using the Rio 600 RVT and 800 RVT (rejuvenating venturi) powerheads for in tank use.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ussion/23918-using-co2-venturi-powerhead.html










http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...eads-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...twater_Aquarium_Supplies&vendor=&child=TA3193

They have a nice impeller.


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## Guest

when running these needle wheels in your tank or inline dont you get micro bubbles all over the tank? And if so how does it look durning the day dont it take away from viewing the tank?


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## plantbrain

If you have pearling in your tank, doesn't that distract the same?:thumbsup:

Bubbles are bubbles. ADA's tanks use diffuser mist, same deal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Guest

plantbrain said:


> If you have pearling in your tank, doesn't that distract the same?:thumbsup:
> 
> Bubbles are bubbles. ADA's tanks use diffuser mist, same deal.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



To be honest I really dont get much pearling in my tank. Maybe its the reactor not sure but havent seen it much though. Only time I seen it is when I used h202. I get ok growth in the tank but not really pearling. I use 2 sets of 2x54 t5's on the tank but still never really seen it.

I was thinking of trying it in a power head to and inject it in the bottom to see if I seen it pearl that way then I would know if the reactor (rex style) was stopping it from happening. I get really no bubbles coming out of the reactor so its dissolving well I was just puzzled why they never did pearl.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Thats a nice looking pump Left. I have had nothing but problems with Rio pumps.
They all managed to leak some kind of oily mess into tanks


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## Left C

I've read several "horror" stories about Rio powerheads and pumps; mostly from the reefer crowd. I've never had a problem. I have 3 of them right now. I had the 600 RVT for several months and then I sent it to jake to use. I didn't hear of any problems from him.

You can even buy foam filters with cases from the Rio line. You do have to do a little bit of grinding on one of the plastic pieces to make it fit right on the RVT powerhead.

I've never tried a Rio pump.


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## speakerguy

> I have had nothing but problems with Rio pumps. They all managed to leak some kind of oily mess into tanks


Reefers hate them, lots of tales of oily messes wiping out entire tanks on Reefcentral. They earned this reputation years ago, and I don't know if they were ever re-designed or addressed the problem.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Its been a few years sense Ive used them. Maybe they have fixed the issue.


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## Minsc

Hey Orlando, are you going to be offering those set ups through your store?
Now that you have been using yours for a while, how audible is it?

I finally have my gen-x up and running, and I love it! However, it is still a little bit louder than I would like (possibly because it has been dropped 12 feet), and I wouldn't mind replacing it some day.

Here is my setup:


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

The Danner Pumps work very well. Ive been using them for some time now with no complaints. Ive been waiting for Eheims Needle wheel pump hat has been available in Europe for a long time and now they are finally available. 
The impeller in the Eheim pump looks very promising, so anybody looking to do this definitely give Eheim Needle Wheel pumps a try.

-Orlando


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## Jeff5614

The Eheim is a nice looking pump, even has adjustable flow, but it's fairly pricey.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...iew~idProduct~EH1103~idCategory~FIWPSBFT.html


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Yes, but the impeller is very well done, I plan to try one very soon. I think these pumps are Ideal for most folks in the FW Planted tank world 

Regards, Orlando


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## Gatekeeper

Orlando,

Do you run your danner in a closed loop or inline with a filter? Do they run ok by themselves? Do you need to be inline? Any issues with air lock?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Glenn,

I run all of the pump's on separate closed loops. I try to keep my Co2 diffusion separate from filter loops. 
These pumps run perfect themselves and Ive never had a problem, nor can I hear any noise. No air lock problems at all.
I always feed any pump with larger intake no matter if its co2 pump or filter pumps.

Orlando


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## Gatekeeper

Thanks Orlando! I just ordered a Danner pump Mag-3 (with the needle wheel and venturi thingy) yesterday. Are you going to be stocking these soon???


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Sweet, your going to love it 

Yes, we are in the works. Just waiting for the vendor to get our shipment in 

Orlando


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## Jeff5614

I've been using a needlewheel pump for a little over a week now and it has been good so far. It's as quiet as the reactor it replaced, produces a finer mist than the ADA pollen glass I've used in the past and seems just as efficient as the reactor based on the response of the drop checker. The plants seem happy too, pearling is more evident and happens sooner.

If anyone is thinking about trying it I don't think you'll be disappointed.


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## BayBoy1205

How are you distributing the water and CO2 back in the tank? What would be the best way to get the CO2 distributed in a 125 gallon tank?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

BayBoy1205 said:


> How are you distributing the water and CO2 back in the tank? What would be the best way to get the CO2 distributed in a 125 gallon tank?


 The needle wheel pump has 2 jobs.
1) Smash Co2 into a fine mist 

2) Blow Mist via 900GPH Needle Wheel pump throughout the tank.

You cant get this with a PVC reactor 

Regards, Orlando


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## Jeff5614

BayBoy1205 said:


> How are you distributing the water and CO2 back in the tank? What would be the best way to get the CO2 distributed in a 125 gallon tank?


I have mine plumbed inline with a canister filter.


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## BayBoy1205

I was wondering how you actually distribute it? Like a spray bar. Only one output or multiple outputs?


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## Jeff5614

Mine goes through the spraybar that serves as the filter output so it does a good job of getting the mist distributed throughout the tank. The nozzle sort of outputs would work fine too I would think as long as you have decent circulation in the tank.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Spray bars or Modular fittings work well. 

These Danner pumps are in my OP, the easiest most cost efficient way to diffuse CO2 in an aquarium.


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## DaveS

Orlando said:


> Spray bars or Modular fittings work well.
> 
> These Danner pumps are in my OP, the easiest most cost efficient way to diffuse CO2 in an aquarium.


Orlando,

Would I be correct in assuming that the Danner Mag Drive needle wheel pump is just a normal Mag Drive with a different impeller? I have been looking for a Mag Drive needle wheel pump, but they are mighty tough to come by. The needle wheel impeller however is pretty easy to find.

Is there a particular model you recommend? I am assuming the pump sits in the stand so it has to be able to move water at least a few feet vertically?

Dave


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## Gatekeeper

Dave,

Yes it is. They also come with a "fancy" intake... lol. You can just buy the impeller and change it out of a normal mag pump.


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## CL

So how much would a decent needle wheel cost to buy and set up?


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## DaveS

gmccreedy said:


> Dave,
> 
> Yes it is. They also come with a "fancy" intake... lol. You can just buy the impeller and change it out of a normal mag pump.


Thanks Glenn. That takes a bit of the mystery out of it.

I have a Mag Drive 7 that I use as a utility pump, but I have only used it submerged. What kind of leak risk is there associated with these pumps if they are run externally (if anyone has experience with them)? I am guessing the motor seal is probably the weak point.

Dave


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## DaveS

clwatkins10 said:


> So how much would a decent needle wheel cost to buy and set up?


From what I have been pricing, about $100 for the pump + impeller. The plumbing would be a few dollars as well.

Dave


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## CL

DaveS said:


> From what I have been pricing, about $100 for the pump + impeller. The plumbing would be a few dollars as well.
> 
> Dave


Thanks, nice FSM avatar BTW. Did a report on FSMism in religion last year. Got a kick out of the FSM bible as well. "Touched by his noodley appendage" lol.


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## Gatekeeper

Check these out here. Has both pumps and just impellers


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## CL

gmccreedy said:


> Check these out here. Has both pumps and just impellers


hmm, so would "Danner Mfg., Supr. 
Mag 2 Needle Wheel Pump 250 GPH with Aerating Impeller and Venturi Assembly, Danner 
$50.99 " plus the plumbing be all I need to get one set up?


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## DaveS

clwatkins10 said:


> hmm, so would "Danner Mfg., Supr.
> Mag 2 Needle Wheel Pump 250 GPH with Aerating Impeller and Venturi Assembly, Danner
> $50.99 " plus the plumbing be all I need to get one set up?


It all depends on what flow rate you want and how you will be plumbing it. The MD2 has a flow rate of 170 gph at 3 feet of head, and 125 gph at 4 feet. There will also be some friction losses as well, so figure somewhere in the range of 100 to 150 gph if you have the pump sitting under the tank in your stand. The MD3 puts out 300/270 gph at the same head heights. I honestly don't know what kind of flow rate is required, but 100-150 should be fine for a small to medium sized tank.

Dave


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## bsmith

Well Im finally done with my install. It's an Iwaki MD-10L rated at 3.1 gpm (186 gph) installed inline after my XP1. So far it is working awesome. Not only is the co2 chopped into tiny tiny bubbles but the output on the XP1 seems as if it has doubled!


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## Jens

I've been running the Mag 2 Needle Wheel inline with a eheim 2128 for a couple weeks now on my 90G. Money well spend so far. Works very well so far.


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## DaveS

I know the majority of people are running these pumps inline with canisters, but I would prefer to keep it as a separate system. Has anyone (I believe Orlando has) set up such a system, and if so, what pump did you use?

Dave


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

HI Dave,

I use the Danner 950GPH pump on a 120G on a separate loop. I use several other Danner pumps with other tanks as well on separate loops. Danner makes a slew of pumps sizes, Im sure one of them would work well for you

Let me know if you need any help.

Cheers, Orlando


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## Gatekeeper

DaveS said:


> I know the majority of people are running these pumps inline with canisters, but I would prefer to keep it as a separate system. Has anyone (I believe Orlando has) set up such a system, and if so, what pump did you use?
> 
> Dave


I will be tonight! Got all my parts, should be up and running tongiht, with a Mag 3


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## Jeff5614

I thought about keeping mine separate but I didn't want another set of inflows and outflows in the tank although I guess I could have put in on a bypass and used the existing canister plumbing. I also was concerned about it getting dirty faster being on its own loop even with using a prefilter.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Jeff5614 said:


> I thought about keeping mine separate but I didn't want another set of inflows and outflows in the tank although I guess I could have put in on a bypass and used the existing canister plumbing. I also was concerned about it getting dirty faster being on its own loop even with using a prefilter.


 The only reason I prefer not to use prefilters or plumb them in-line with canisters is due to prefilters or filters getting clogged with debris then starving your pump of water. 
I don't use prefilters in any needle wheel setup and have never touched them from day one. They all perform the same from the start. Ive yet to need to do any maintenance yet 

Regards, Orlando


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## DaveS

Orlando said:


> HI Dave,
> 
> I use the Danner 950GPH pump on a 120G on a separate loop. I use several other Danner pumps with other tanks as well on separate loops. Danner makes a slew of pumps sizes, Im sure one of them would work well for you
> 
> Let me know if you need any help.
> 
> Cheers, Orlando


Thanks Orlando. I might just try getting a new impeller for my Mag 7 and see what happens.

Glenn,

Keep us updated on how your test works out!

Dave


----------



## tazcrash69

FWIW, I just played around with my new Mag 7 version, with aerating impeller, Talk about a nice really small mist. On the Mag 7 & smaller I don't like the tight fit on the outflow (The pic of that 9 looks better having the threads above the pump body), and honestly, the injection port piece they give you seems a bit thin walled. 

Oh, and this was closed loop, and I had it running with over 5BPS. no air-lock.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Good stuff Walter! 

-Orlando


----------



## cah925

FYI - Custom Aquatics is having a sale right now (not sure for how long though) on needle wheel pumps. Most pumps are 30% off. Here's the link - http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/search/~id=needle wheel/~pi=777/~srt=1


----------



## BayBoy1205

Orlando,
Two questions: What kind of intake do you have in the tank to keep from sucking up the fish/shrimp?
How are you outputting the water/CO2 back into the tank on your 120 gallon? I have a 125 gallon.


Just ordered the mag 9.5. Thanks,

Matt


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

BayBoy1205 said:


> Orlando,
> Two questions: What kind of intake do you have in the tank to keep from sucking up the fish/shrimp?
> How are you outputting the water/CO2 back into the tank on your 120 gallon? I have a 125 gallon.
> 
> 
> Just ordered the mag 9.5. Thanks,
> 
> Matt


 Most of the tanks have bulkheads at the bottom with modular lines for inlet and outlet. Everything is invisible 

Let me know if you need any help Matt 

-Orlando


----------



## tazcrash69

BayBoy1205 said:


> Orlando,
> Two questions: What kind of intake do you have in the tank to keep from sucking up the fish/shrimp?
> How are you outputting the water/CO2 back into the tank on your 120 gallon? I have a 125 gallon.
> 
> 
> Just ordered the mag 9.5. Thanks,
> 
> Matt


Hey Matt, 
FWIW, I just put a Mag 7 on my 125. I put it right in the middle. I had an old eheim intake that I used on the input, if I want I can put the sponge that came with the mag over it. For the output, I built my owm, and then used Kylon black to hide it. I will try and get some pics up. 

But for the output, I used a 1/2" slip T onto 1/2" PVC which goes up ~6" into 2 1/2" 90degree elbows then down to the hose. 

And I have to say I love the micro bubbles from this thing, but it's taking my wife some time to get used to the impeller chopping up the bubbles noise.


----------



## BayBoy1205

I would like to see some pics. Just trying to figure out the best way to get the CO2 distributed.


----------



## tazcrash69

Right now I have it in the middle pointing both ways, but I think I'll end up splitting the line so that I can put my DIY outlflows next to my filter outflows on either side of the tank.

Trust me, these bubbles are so small they easily get blown around the tank.


----------



## BayBoy1205

I'm thinking about splitting it with a T at the bottom of the tank and then angled.


----------



## tazcrash69

BayBoy1205 said:


> I'm thinking about splitting it with a T at the bottom of the tank and then angled.


Like this?








That's 1/2" PVC into a 3 way 1/2" T into 1/2" 45 degrees slips All painted in fusion flat black.

excuse the haze, that's the mist from the needle wheel pump.


----------



## BayBoy1205

Thanks. That is how I was thinking on doing it.


----------



## MarkMc

General question: Are people going with this method because it's a more efficient way of injecting or do plants get more benefit from undissolved CO2? ie:a bubble of gas contacting the leaf surface. I have a large reactor that dissolves all the CO2 that goes into it. Is this something I should explore? Are there any studies on this or is it merely subjective observations of individuals tanks?


----------



## Minsc

Minsc said:


> Nothing about my tanks is ever, ever easy. I'm shocked Eyebeatbadgers managed to find a disaster that didn't happen to me:icon_eek:


I knew I was jinxing myself when I typed this


----------



## airborne_r6

Minsc said:


> I knew I was jinxing myself when I typed this


So when are you planning on elaborating?


----------



## Minsc

airborne_r6 said:


> So when are you planning on elaborating?


Lol, it was a bad day. I just got finished cleaning up plumbing bits from the floor, and still nothing on the tank is working but the filter and heater:icon_roll

I was doing a minor plumbing adjustment, splitting the output to both corners, and noticed the Gen-x was being especially loud. I thought there might be some gas trapped in it, so I twisted it a bit... and the bottom fell off, major flood, admittedly my fault

Then I started playing around with the pump placement, as I have said previously, it is always loud, and can use the stand as a megaphone if they touch. I tried putting the pump on the stand floor, only to discover the water pressure at that height is too much, and makes the seals leak

To cut to the chase, I love needlewheel pumps, but I hate this one, and it is getting unceremoniously trashed at the first opportunity. Unfortunately, I don't have the funds for a new Danner or Eheim. Please see my thread in the Swap and Shop, I have a nice handful of Erios and other rarities for anyone with a decent spare pump.


----------



## tazcrash69

MarkMc said:


> General question: Are people going with this method because it's a more efficient way of injecting or do plants get more benefit from undissolved CO2? ie:a bubble of gas contacting the leaf surface. I have a large reactor that dissolves all the CO2 that goes into it. Is this something I should explore? Are there any studies on this or is it merely subjective observations of individuals tanks?


For me it was the combo of these 2 reasons:
1) I didn't like the reduction in flow from my 2 canisters with the big reactors I had on my 125.
2) I manage to break diffusers by looking at them too hard.


----------



## Gatekeeper

tazcrash69 said:


> 2) I manage to break diffusers by looking at them too hard.


ROFLMAO!!! Amen brother!!!


----------



## MarkMc

tazcrash69 said:


> For me it was the combo of these 2 reasons:
> 1) I didn't like the reduction in flow from my 2 canisters with the big reactors I had on my 125.
> 2) I manage to break diffusers by looking at them too hard.


So basically it's an easier method for you given your particular set up.


----------



## tazcrash69

MarkMc said:


> So basically it's an easier method for you given your particular set up.


Easier for me, and more efficient than the diffusers I had. 
IME, Clean diffusers do make nice bubbles, but they clog quickly, and make larger bubbles. 
This needle wheel diffuser is creating a real mist of really tiny bubbles throughout my tank. It showed me that my right side wasn't get a good distribution. 
Since I don't really need the pump to increase circulation, I'm modifying the outflow to 2 points on either end of the tank so that the filter flow can help distribute the CO2.


----------



## Jeff5614

MarkMc said:


> General question: Are people going with this method because it's a more efficient way of injecting or do plants get more benefit from undissolved CO2? ie:a bubble of gas contacting the leaf surface. I have a large reactor that dissolves all the CO2 that goes into it. Is this something I should explore? Are there any studies on this or is it merely subjective observations of individuals tanks?


I've read on the Barr Report that the plant leaves having direct contact with gaseous CO2 is a more efficient method for the plants to obtain CO2 than having to remove it from water. It seems like a few other possible benefits were mentioned also. If you have time go over to barrreport.com and do a search on CO2 mist. 

After using a reactor for a year or so on this tank I decided to go back to misting. More just for variety. I like to try and revisit different things occasionally. It's just part of the fun for me. Anyway, I had trouble getting the mist to all parts of my 75 with the diffuser I have so the needlewheel idea sounded interesting. Now my tank is bathed in mist. The plants seem happy and I enjoyed adding the pump.


----------



## krtismo

I have a 55g that I'm considering trying this on. I'm still setting everything up, but I will have either a XP3 or XP2. 

Would this be worth trying? Or should I just keep my glass diffuser? Is my tank too small for this to be worth it?

I would like to get the diffuser out of the tank, and maybe even make a inline heater. This tank isn't going to have very tall plants in it, and I would like to clean all of the equipment out of the inside of the tank except for the filter intake and output.

If this would be a good idea. What size pump should I get? I would like to run it inline with the filter.

Anyone have a specific pump that would be good for me?

OK, enough questions...


Thanks!


----------



## Jeff5614

I'm using a Sedra 3500 and so far so good. It's quiet, was easy to plumb and makes a ton of mist.


----------



## krtismo

I was hoping to find something between $20-$50


----------



## Jeff5614

krtismo said:


> I was hoping to find something between $20-$50


I think you can find a Danner Mag 2 needlewheel pump for around $50 and if you go back and read the first few pages of this thread again pay particular attention to Eyebeatbadgers posts. He used a GenX pump which I think you can find for under $40.


----------



## cah925

I use the GenX pump also. Works pretty good, I ordered a few more for my other tanks.


----------



## krtismo

Would that genx 1000 be big enough to match with my XP2?


----------



## coolnick

krtismo said:


> Would that genx 1000 be big enough to match with my XP2?


I wouldn't even consider an XP2 on a 55g. I think a XP3 would be a bare minimum. Remember those flow ratings on the box don't take the head into consideration.

Once you settle on your canister filter then you can just match up, or come close to matching, the pump output of your needle wheel with your canister's no-head rated flow. At least that is how I would go about it.


----------



## krtismo

ok, thanks


----------



## cah925

I first put a GenX 1000 (265gph) on my 40 Breeder. It pushes the water across the tank fairly well, but I think it could use more power. So I ordered the GenX 1500 (~400 gph) for the other 40 breeders. 
I also agree with using a XP3 on the 55 gal tank. I have an XP2 and XP3 on my 75. I use an CalAqua inline diffuser from GLA on the XP3 to move the CO2 around the tank. My inline heater is hooked up to the XP2. I use the XP2 for extra flow in the tank to make sure I get good water movement through and around all the plants.


----------



## BayBoy1205

I have my danner Mag 9.5 pump and the plumbing almost finished. I have painted the output and input. How long do I have to let the fusion paint sit before putting it in the tank?


----------



## tazcrash69

OK, this is probably overkill, but I let mine dry for a few hours in the boiler room, and them soaked overnight (changing water a couple times).


----------



## Left C

coolnick said:


> I wouldn't even consider an XP2 on a 55g. I think a XP3 would be a bare minimum. Remember those flow ratings on the box don't take the head into consideration. ...


What coonick is saying is right. Let me add a little bit more info about the XP's. The XP series advertise the amount of flow through the filter without the media. This is greatly misleading. You need to know the amount of flow with the media in them. This flow rate amount is not found on their website. The only place that you see this is printed on the boxes that the filters come in. It is printed on the side of the box. Below is this info. The XP's average a 54.5% decrease in the flow rate with the recommended media in them verses having an empty filter. 

*Filstar XP Flow rates*

*XP1*
Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 250 US gph
Water Flow Rate with Media: 142 US gph
Percentage Difference: 56.8%

*XP2*
Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 300 US gph
Water Flow Rate with Media: 160 US gph
Percentage Difference: 53.3%

*XP3*
Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 350 US gph
Water Flow Rate with Media: 187 US gph
Percentage Difference: 53.4%


----------



## krtismo

Thank for that info, I'm glad I saw this.

So I guess I better start looking for a NW pump with a GPH of around 250 to go with an XP3?




Left C said:


> What coonick is saying is right. Let me add a little bit more info about the XP's. The XP series advertise the amount of flow through the filter without the media. This is greatly misleading. You need to know the amount of flow with media in them. This flow rate amount is not found on their website. The only place that you see this is printed on the boxes that the filters come in. It is printed on the side of the box. Below is the info. The XP's average a 54.5% decrease in the flow rate with the recommended media in them verse having an empty filter.
> 
> *Filstar XP Flow rates*
> 
> *XP1*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 250 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 142 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 56.8%
> 
> *XP2*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 300 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 160 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 53.3%
> 
> *XP3*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 350 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 187 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 53.4%


----------



## timelessr1

tazcrash69 said:


> OK, this is probably overkill, but I let mine dry for a few hours in the boiler room, and them soaked overnight (changing water a couple times).


I'm painting mine also with Fusion paint. the can states that it takes 7 days to become really chip resistant, so i'm figuring that means it takes 7 days to FULLY cure...thats how long i'm going to wait


----------



## tazcrash69

timelessr1 said:


> I'm painting mine also with Fusion paint. the can states that it takes 7 days to become really chip resistant, so i'm figuring that means it takes 7 days to FULLY cure...thats how long i'm going to wait


That what I get for rushing, and not reading everything...... :icon_redf


----------



## krtismo

I'm thinking about getting a small drop checker as a safety precaution for my cardinals and RCS (neither of which are in the tank yet).

Would it be worth getting? or would it be inaccurate with this type of c02 diffusion?

I just want to know when c02 levels are getting too high.


----------



## Jeff5614

I think a dropchecker would still be useful. It would at least give you a ballpark idea.


----------



## Burks

Is anyone using this method on a 10g with no canister filter? I'm trying to figure it out but am having a problem.

Best solution I could think of is a Maxi-Jet 400 with a mesh mod, CO2 injected directly into the intake. 

Anyone know of a small needle wheel that would work instead of the MJ? Been a while since I had to deal with having too much flow in a tank (been dealing with reef tanks).


----------



## Minsc

Your question is two days too early...

I am setting up a external closed loop MJ 1200 with stock impeller as the filtration for a 10g. It is going to be the same sort of system we are talking about here, CO2 going into the line to be chopped by the pump, but I'm not bothering to mod the pump first. It has been my experience so far that the needle/mesh wheel isn't actually necessary for this application.

I'll let you know how it turns out.


----------



## Burks

Please do!

I'm just doing what I did three years ago right now, DIY CO2 fed into a limewood block. Worked then, but I want something better.


----------



## Minsc

Here you go Burks, my solution for a 10 gallon:









The intake and spray bar are "rigid air line", heated with a hair dryer and bent into shape. I am adding a prefilter sponge to the intake to act as mechanical filtration, and to keep the impeller clean. The CO2 line is just jammed into a tight fitting hole in the plastic elbow.

So far, so good. The MJ 1200 (yes, it looks like a 400. It isn't.) is providing a lot of flow, almost overwhelming. I want it this way, as I am planning on adding way too much light... otherwise, a smaller model would be more appropriate.

The stock impeller is doing a nice job with the misting, a mesh mod would be better.

Hope that helps!


----------



## eht123

coolnick said:


> I wouldn't even consider an XP2 on a 55g. I think a XP3 would be a bare minimum. Remember those flow ratings on the box don't take the head into consideration.
> 
> Once you settle on your canister filter then you can just match up, or come close to matching, the pump output of your needle wheel with your canister's no-head rated flow. At least that is how I would go about it.


A typical canister filter installation, with the inlet and outlet at the same elevation, operates at 0 head. So while there are losses to consider vs. the rated flow, that isn't one of them.


----------



## eht123

Left C said:


> Let me add a little bit more info about the XP's. The XP series advertise the amount of flow through the filter without the media. This is greatly misleading. You need to know the amount of flow with the media in them. This flow rate amount is not found on their website. The only place that you see this is printed on the boxes that the filters come in. It is printed on the side of the box. Below is this info. The XP's average a 54.5% decrease in the flow rate with the recommended media in them verses having an empty filter.
> 
> *Filstar XP Flow rates*
> 
> *XP1*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 250 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 142 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 56.8%
> 
> *XP2*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 300 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 160 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 53.3%
> 
> *XP3*
> Water Flow Rate w/o Media: 350 US gph
> Water Flow Rate with Media: 187 US gph
> Percentage Difference: 53.4%


I have instrumented each of my three XP3s with flow meters (http://www.kinginstrumentco.com/7510_7511/7510_7511.html). A 50% reduction is basically right on, but only for a filter that is brand new or very clean (i.e., all new media). If the filter and media have been in use for a while, it's more like 33%.

I measured a new XP3 at 2.8 gpm, roughly 45% the rated flow. My older units, with clean but used media, run around 2.0 to 2.5 gpm, or around 33% rated flow. Incidentally, you'd be surprised how quickly those numbers can drop (at least, I was) when doing planting, etc. I recently did a bit of rearranging on one tank, and stirred stuff up a bit. Flow dropped from 2.4 gpm before to 2.0 after. Pretty good indication it's time to clean things out again...


----------



## Dmaaaaax

Why is the GX1000 needle wheel pump (265gph) so much cheaper than the Danner Mag 2 needle wheel pump (250gph)? Has anyone seen both or tried both in person? Are they both ready to hook in-line and with your CO2 tubing, and is the mist produced similar?

Is that a good flow rate to hook up to a Rena XP3 (350gph) but closer to 200gph?


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

The Danner unit is produced in the US and the other is not. Thats probably the difference right there in cost. Danner will be coming out with kits to make any Mag drive pump into a needle wheel unit. I think we are like 3 months or less out on this.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Zid,

You can buy the needle wheels now and mod any Mag pump. There are only a few places to get the impeller though.


----------



## Dmaaaaax

ZID ZULANDER said:


> The Danner unit is produced in the US and the other is not. Thats probably the difference right there in cost. Danner will be coming out with kits to make any Mag drive pump into a needle wheel unit. I think we are like 3 months or less out on this.


So do the impellers look similar? Do they make similar mist sized bubbles? Do they both come with a hose barb attachment for the CO2 tube? I know the Danner one does.

I am looking for stupid simple. I just want to cut my output line of my XP3, put in the pump, clamp it down and plug in the CO2 line. Are both pump ready to go like that? Would you all recommend the pumps above for an XP3 or can I get away with more gph?


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

I work for Danner. You can buy the impeller but as for the venturi barb fitting and the air line with the impeller in a kit form that is not available yet. We are working on getting a kit made for each size. As of right now you need to buy the impeller and the venturi assembly seperate. If you use any impeller other than a Danner impeller it will void the warranty on the pump.



gmccreedy said:


> Zid,
> 
> You can buy the needle wheels now and mod any Mag pump. There are only a few places to get the impeller though.


----------



## Gatekeeper

ZID ZULANDER said:


> I work for Danner.


Ahhh. I also misunderstood what you were saying. I forgot about the fancy schmancy venturi fitting.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

ZID ZULANDER said:


> I work for Danner. You can buy the impeller but as for the venturi barb fitting and the air line with the impeller in a kit form that is not available yet. We are working on getting a kit made for each size. As of right now you need to buy the impeller and the venturi assembly seperate. If you use any impeller other than a Danner impeller it will void the warranty on the pump.


 Thats strange, I have a few boxes of Danner Needle wheel pumps with everything in the box including venturi and all the fittings. I can get pallets of these things.. 

Regards, Orlando


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Here it is......New in the box


Orlando


----------



## tazcrash69

@Orlando: I Think ZID was talking about an OEM needle wheel kit to convert an existing mag pump. That would include both the injector, and the impeller.

@ZID, Loving my Mag 7 Needle wheel.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Ahh! I see, sort of a hop up kit kinda thing...That would cool. I wish all pump manufacturers would do this..

-O


----------



## Minsc

Dmaaaaax said:


> So do the impellers look similar? Do they make similar mist sized bubbles? Do they both come with a hose barb attachment for the CO2 tube? I know the Danner one does.
> 
> I am looking for stupid simple. I just want to cut my output line of my XP3, put in the pump, clamp it down and plug in the CO2 line. Are both pump ready to go like that? Would you all recommend the pumps above for an XP3 or can I get away with more gph?


If you want ease of use, you want the pump in Orlando's picture. Perhaps he can sell you one?
If not, here is a listing for the MagDrive 3 model, which works well with an XP3:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem~idProduct~DN1161~tab~1.html

Gen-X will require some DIY'ing to get it to work, and the pump is a lower quality build in general.


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

Yes the fractionating pumps are made by Danner. I am talking about taking the impeller that comes with the pump or another companies impeller and changing it to be used in a Mag Drive pump. If for some reason it caused the pump to be faulty we would not cover it under the warranty. The Fractionating pumps have a modified impeller ( made by Danner ) a venturi barbed fitting, air line hose and a airline muffler. We are also coming out with a kit that would include the modified impeller, barbed venturi fitting and the air line house with muffler so that you could take a Mag drive pump you already have and make it a fractionating pump. The modified impeller you can get seperate and you can get the other parts seperate but not as a kit as of right now. The new kit should be ready in a few months. I hope this clears up the confusion.


----------



## Jeff5614

Jeff5614 said:


> I'm using a Sedra 3500 and so far so good. It's quiet, was easy to plumb and makes a ton of mist.


The so far so good experience with a Sedra may be coming to an end. I have the pump on the same timer as the CO2 and a couple of days after this post I noticed the pump was not running. I checked to see if it needed to be cleaned which it didn't, took the impeller out and put it back in, replaced the impeller cover and still no go. I called Marine Depot, who I bought it from, they offered a few suggestions which didn't help. So they sent a replacement which has worked fine up until today. I wake up, make my way to the living room and the pump isn't on. I took it off, pulled the impeller out and reseated it. This time it started running again. I'm wondering if having it shut off and on with the CO2 could be causing this or is there a problem with these pumps. We'll see if it continues to run or the problem repeats itself. If it does I may be joining all of you Danner owners.


----------



## Minsc

A couple questions for you Jeff:
Are you running the pump inline or closed loop?
Is the pump using a true fractioning/needlewheel impeller?

I'm just curious!


----------



## Jeff5614

It's inline with my canister and it's using the stock needle wheel impeller.


----------



## tefsom85

I have a 120G that I am restarting and am looking into putting a Mag9.5 NW on it as my CO2 diffusion method. I have seen others that have done this on this size of tank in this thread and am wondering how well their tanks have done over an extended period of time with the needle wheel method.

Also, I viewed the Greenleaf site and was not able to find this pump there yet. Is it being sold yet?


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

My suggestion on this would be to keep the pump running 24 / 7. Even if the Co2 is not on I would keep the pump running. Most of the magnetic drive pumps do not do well when they are being turned off and on all the time. Some like the Mag drive pump have impellers that use a drive dog type system that over time will cause the impeller to brake if turned on and off all the time. The pumps are designed to run all the time so I would just keep the pump on.




Jeff5614 said:


> The so far so good experience with a Sedra may be coming to an end. I have the pump on the same timer as the CO2 and a couple of days after this post I noticed the pump was not running. I checked to see if it needed to be cleaned which it didn't, took the impeller out and put it back in, replaced the impeller cover and still no go. I called Marine Depot, who I bought it from, they offered a few suggestions which didn't help. So they sent a replacement which has worked fine up until today. I wake up, make my way to the living room and the pump isn't on. I took it off, pulled the impeller out and reseated it. This time it started running again. I'm wondering if having it shut off and on with the CO2 could be causing this or is there a problem with these pumps. We'll see if it continues to run or the problem repeats itself. If it does I may be joining all of you Danner owners.


----------



## Jeff5614

Thanks, Zid, I'll give that a try. What's a drive dog system, btw?


----------



## bibbels

Jeff5614 said:


> Thanks, Zid, I'll give that a try. *What's a drive dog system, btw*?


 
x2
Please explain.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

ok.. dammit I am sold.. I just bought a genx 2400 needle wheel pump 650gph. it is currently running pre co2 reactor.. it boosts flow alot.. but I want more flow throughout the tank.. so I am going to remove my co2 reactor and plum this in. 

those fittings that Orlando has in his illustration.. can you get them at any hardware store? the hose barbs on mine screw in and have a oring at the end so it seals. 

is it possible to use the regular rubber hose out of the filter.. into a small section of pvc. drill a hole in the pvc and pull the co2 hose into it like the reactor. use a small piece of hose to make the connection to the intake of the needle valve. out of the needle valve on rubber hose to the pvc discharge I have.. I KNOW I AM CONFUSING SO JUST SLAP THE **** OUT OF ME NOW!

breakdown. filter, rubber hose to pvc (with co2 injection), rubberhose again to pump. rubber hose out of pump to discharge pvc in the tank.

only use for rubber hose is because I have the barb on the filter. the pvc I would use to inject the co2 has barbs on both ends making it easier to connect without additional fittings. same on the other side of the pump.

Ken


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hi folks 

This is my .02c on what pump to use for this method. If you have the access to Danner needle wheel pumps, use one. I use a few of them on different tanks and the setup was so easy I cant see myself using anything else.
Ive had folks email regarding other inline pumps and have heard horror stories of shrouds coming lose and water all over the place. These danner pumps that I have setup have been going strong from day one with no hassles.

If anybody needs help or has any questions just shoot them my way, Id be happy to help.

Regards, Orlando


----------



## Jeff5614

Sedra is dead again this morning. I'm returning it for a refund and ordering a Danner as we speak. If you're thinking about a Sedra, based on my experience, avoid them.


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

Jeff5614 said:


> Thanks, Zid, I'll give that a try. What's a drive dog system, btw?


Its a little hard to explain but if you take the impeller in your hand and with your thumb and pointer finger hold the magnet part and with the other had try to spin the blades it will turn a little then stop. There is a tab on the magnet part that the tab on the blades hits. That is called the drive dog. Some of these other pumps with the needle wheels dont use this because the companies had to modify the impeller and they glue the needle part on. So thats it..


----------



## Minsc

Zid, or anyone else who might know:
When these pumps are being run inline with canisters, it is clear they are not running at full capacity, they are being restricted on the inlet side. Will there be any long term affects from this?


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

There shouldnt be any long term effects on the unit as long as you keep them running. The only problem I have run into is when the units are being turned off and on. This will cause the impeller to brake at some point.You can restrict the flow on any of the mag drive units with no ill effect.




Minsc said:


> Zid, or anyone else who might know:
> When these pumps are being run inline with canisters, it is clear they are not running at full capacity, they are being restricted on the inlet side. Will there be any long term affects from this?


----------



## Jeff5614

Does anyone know if Orlando is selling Danner pumps yet? I don't see them on GLA's web site so I'm guessing not.


----------



## tefsom85

I didn't see them there yet. I did find them at a good price at Danner Needle Wheel - D & T


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

Jeff5614 said:


> Does anyone know if Orlando is selling Danner pumps yet? I don't see them on GLA's web site so I'm guessing not.


 I would shoot him a PM. I am sure he can get them.


----------



## Jeff5614

In an amazing turn of events I plugged in my sedra pump and after 2 days it has returned from the dead, lol. No matter though, I have the return authorization and it's going back tomorrow.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I bought the genx 2400 and set it up like Orlando's set up.. the damn housing from the output on the needle pump cracked when I screwed it in.. BY HAND!
Now I am screwed. I have to go out and buy another one at a higher price because I can't inject co2 without it.

anyone know if it hurts anything to inject the co2 directly into the canister through the intake? I am running a xp3


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalo...erating-Impeller-and-Venturi-Assembly-Danner/

would this one be too strong for my tank. or should I say filter? running an xp3. am going to set it up like Orlando's illustration.


----------



## Natty

Torpedobarb said:


> http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalo...erating-Impeller-and-Venturi-Assembly-Danner/
> 
> would this one be too strong for my tank. or should I say filter? running an xp3. am going to set it up like Orlando's illustration.


Shouldn't be with your size tank.

If you want it just for the use of diffusion and chopping up your CO2, you can definately get a smaller size, but that should work fine imo.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

sweet.. I am going to pick one up.. the more flow the better.. I just don't want it to starve the filter is all.

thanks alot!


----------



## Natty

Torpedobarb said:


> sweet.. I am going to pick one up.. the more flow the better.. I just don't want it to starve the filter is all.
> 
> thanks alot!


Oh, you're gonna hook it up inline with your XP3?

Eh, either way, it should work fine, inline or not.


----------



## tefsom85

I'm curious how much flow you get from the mag NW pumps. For example, is the Mag 9.5 NW still rated at 950 GPH or is it derated due to the NW?


----------



## Minsc

Torpedobarb said:


> http://www.dtpetsupplies.com/catalo...erating-Impeller-and-Venturi-Assembly-Danner/
> 
> would this one be too strong for my tank. or should I say filter? running an xp3. am going to set it up like Orlando's illustration.


That is the setup I'm using nowadays, mag3 inline with XP3. Works great.



tefsom85 said:


> I'm curious how much flow you get from the mag NW pumps. For example, is the Mag 9.5 NW still rated at 950 GPH or is it derated due to the NW?


If there is any decrease in GPH, it isn't much. Needlewheel impellers can still move a lot of water. The big decrease is if the pump is run inline with another device, as opposed to it's own closed loop.


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

Minsc said:


> Needlewheel impellers can still move a lot of water.


Correction on this Danner's modified impeller is not a needlewheel impeller there is a big difference between the two. Danner's modified impeller moves more water than the needlewheels that other companies use. You will not get the rated flow of the Mag but a less flow rating. The other pumps out there with the needlewheels are not even close to the GPH the pumps are suppose to pump. Take a look at the needlewheels and the Danner modified impeller. Big difference... I had to point this out...


----------



## Jeff5614

ZID ZULANDER said:


> Correction on this Danner's modified impeller is not a needlewheel impeller there is a big difference between the two. Danner's modified impeller moves more water than the needlewheels that other companies use. You will not get the rated flow of the Mag but a less flow rating. The other pumps out there with the needlewheels are not even close to the GPH the pumps are suppose to pump. Take a look at the needlewheels and the Danner modified impeller. Big difference... I had to point this out...


Which explains why Danner calls it a "fractionating impeller" and not a needle wheel impeller. It is quite a bit different than the impeller on a Sedra but as long as it gets the job done I'll be happy with it.


----------



## Left C

Minsc said:


> That is the setup I'm using nowadays, mag3 inline with XP3. Works great. ...


Hi

Is your mag3 mounted on the exhaust side of your XP3 and not on the suction side?

Thanks,
Left C


----------



## Minsc

Left C said:


> Hi
> 
> Is your mag3 mounted on the exhaust side of your XP3 and not on the suction side?
> 
> Thanks,
> Left C


That is correct. I want the microbubbles created by the magdrive in the tank. If the pump were mounted prefilter, the bubbles would be trapped and dissolved. 
I'm not 100% on this, but I think using a pump prior to the filter would add serious stress to the filter seals.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Minsc, I would agree with that logic. Why put undo stress on the filter if its just as easy to mount it on the exhaust.

I have a mag3 setup in an independent closed loop. 

I must say a few things about this method of diffusion. YMMV.

1. It works very well.
2. Its a bit noisy. If you want dead silence from your tank, this is not the method for you.
3. It can be a bit unsightly. The micro bubbles created are basically a cloud in the tank. My tank basically goes fuzzy while the CO2 is being injected. Quickly goes away though once the solenoid trips off (I run off a pH controller)
4. Very easy way to determine flow patterns in your tank! Great way to find dead spots (its almost like a dye test). Once I had this running, I quickly realized a dead spot at the back of my tank that I would probably never really thought about.

Just some thoughts to chew on.


----------



## Left C

Minsc said:


> That is correct. I want the microbubbles created by the magdrive in the tank. If the pump were mounted prefilter, the bubbles would be trapped and dissolved.
> I'm not 100% on this, but I think using a pump prior to the filter would add serious stress to the filter seals.


I was practically certain that you were running it after your XP, but I wanted to make sure. 

When you said "That is the setup I'm using nowadays, mag3 inline with XP3. Works great....", it confused me a bit because the mag3 is mentioned before the XP3. 

Thank very much for the info.


----------



## Minsc

Good points! Seeing the flow pattern is something that isn't talked about much, but is very helpful. 


gmccreedy said:


> 3. It can be a bit unsightly. The micro bubbles created are basically a cloud in the tank. My tank basically goes fuzzy while the CO2 is being injected. Quickly goes away though once the solenoid trips off (I run off a pH controller)


I have to disagree on this a bit. I do not use a pH controller, so the amount of microbubbles in the tank is constant. They are noticeable if you are close to the tank, or are looking for them. Standing back a foot from the tank, though, the water seems quite clear.



Left C said:


> I was practically certain that you were running it after your XP, but I wanted to make sure.
> 
> When you said "That is the setup I'm using nowadays, mag3 inline with XP3. Works great....", it confused me a bit because the mag3 is mentioned before the XP3.
> 
> Thank very much for the info.


No problem, sorry about the confusing wording:icon_smil


----------



## Jeff5614

Minsc said:


> I have to disagree on this a bit. I do not use a pH controller, so the amount of microbubbles in the tank is constant. They are noticeable if you are close to the tank, or are looking for them. Standing back a foot from the tank, though, the water seems quite clear.


It's the same for me. Up close all the mist has made me think about returning to a reactor but the tank never looked healthier after a couple of weeks of misting. Also when I'm just sitting in the living room looking at the tank the mist isn't noticeable.

On a related subject, since the Sedra 3500 I was using had it's life and death experience over the weekend and is now on it's way back to Marine Depot, I put my ADA diffuser back in the tank until the Danner pump I've ordered arrives on Friday. The most attractive place to put it is also the place that allows the mist to be distributed the least. I've also noticed that during the last few days the drop checker doesn't change color as fast. Being one to live in denial, I've told myself it would be okay for a week. Well, the last couple of days have proven me wrong. Yesterday I noticed a film on the surface and the plants just didn't seem as vibrant. Today it's the same film and the plants seem even more blah. The leaves just aren't as erect or full looking and the water doesn't seem so clear. With the mist you don't notice it so much, but the last hour of lights on after the CO2 had cut off, the water was absolutely crystal clear. I've moved the diffuser to a spot that seems to get better diffusion and upped the bubble count to what seems like an almost innumerable count. 

If this seems like a public service announcement for maintaining good CO2 then take it as such. :icon_smil,


----------



## Jeff5614

I was wondering if just due to the nature of these pumps we're also getting CO2 dissolved into the water by the time it makes it from the pump to the tank so we're getting the best of both worlds?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

with the setup that orlando has on page one. I have mine or going to have mine setup once I get my pump exactly like this. I have a 1" pvc that is about 5" long where the co2 is being injected pre needle needle wheel. 
the ? is have is this. can I take some coarse netting or fiber material and fill the 1" section of pvc for more breakdown of the co2? or can I put it after the needle wheel to help with the breakup? the mesh is like the stuff in the link where the remove the needles and replace it with the pad. hope this isn't too confusing.

Ken


----------



## Dmaaaaax

I have a model 2 hooked up to my XP3. I use a paintball setup by Red Sea complete with their bubble counter and needle valve. My CO2 turns off at night.

This morning I checked it and found my bubble counter completely filled with water meaning that when off there was enough reverse pressure from the venturi end of the pump. The bubble counter has a built in one way valve, but apparently it is not strong enough? I also noticed that the pressure guage on the CO2 regulator was at 30psi. It is set to 15psi. Once the system came back on, I got a rapid production of bubbles until the pressure went back down to 15psi.

Can I add a one way valve just prior to the venturi, or will it not be strong enough? Do I just need a better quality one-way bubble counter or needle valve?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Dmaaaaax said:


> I have a model 2 hooked up to my XP3. I use a paintball setup by Red Sea complete with their bubble counter and needle valve. My CO2 turns off at night.
> 
> This morning I checked it and found my bubble counter completely filled with water meaning that when off there was enough reverse pressure from the venturi end of the pump. The bubble counter has a built in one way valve, but apparently it is not strong enough? I also noticed that the pressure guage on the CO2 regulator was at 30psi. It is set to 15psi. Once the system came back on, I got a rapid production of bubbles until the pressure went back down to 15psi.
> 
> Can I add a one way valve just prior to the venturi, or will it not be strong enough? Do I just need a better quality one-way bubble counter or needle valve?


All you need is a couple of check valves and your good to go.
Besides that everything looks good 

-Orlando


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

wow..I feel left out! lol.. anyone help me out?

Dmaaaaax... the pressure on your regulator is going to go up when it is not running.. you set the working pressure to what you need and when it is off the pressure will go up because you aren't letting it out. normal from my experience


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Torpedobarb said:


> wow..I feel left out! lol.. anyone help me out?
> 
> Dmaaaaax... the pressure on your regulator is going to go up when it is not running.. you set the working pressure to what you need and when it is off the pressure will go up because you aren't letting it out. normal from my experience


 How are things working now Torpedobarb? 

-O


----------



## jinx©

Hey Orlando, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but do you have a link for those airline push fittings? I've seen and used them for micro lines on paintball guns, but I haven't had any luck finding them in standard airline sizes.


----------



## ZID ZULANDER

jinx© said:


> Hey Orlando, I didn't see it mentioned anywhere, but do you have a link for those airline push fittings? I've seen and used them for micro lines on paintball guns, but I haven't had any luck finding them in standard airline sizes.


This might help you out.

http://stcvalve.com/Push_In_Fitting.htm?gclid=CLrz38jTsJcCFQkiagodQFfYiQ#2


----------



## jinx©

Thank you Zid.roud:


----------



## jargonchipmunk

I don't like you guys. The more I read the more this pump seemed like a must have.... now I have a lighter wallet and a pump on its way to my house lol


----------



## sunfire99

I have a Mag3 nw pump that I will be running as a second return pump from my sump. I've never used Co2, but have a good dual stage regulator, still waiting on this http://oregonaquadesign.vstore.ca/product_info.php/pName/after-regulator-assembly/cName/co2-co2-kits
with the Fabco nv upgrade.
My question is will I need an additonal check valve to the venturi on the pump and has anyone had any trouble keeping the CO2 line connected to the pump?


----------



## Left C

I'd use a check valve between the venturi and the regulator.


----------



## sunfire99

10-4. I wasn't sure if the "built in" check valve would prevent backwash via the venturi. Better safe than sorry I guess either way. Thanks!!


----------



## plantbrain

I went back to diffuser disc.

I did not like the trade offs(energy consumption from the booster pump), noise, visually harder to tell the flow rates.

I have plenty of flow inside my tanks, so by placing the disc in the flow, I get good mixing.

Not as frothty distraction of the mist everywhere.

Trade off: I lose more CO2, the water flow is important inside the tank.

I got touches of BBA in 2 tanks as a result of trying to see if the CO2 flow rate could be kept the same as a venturi or a mist wheel.

So the other methods are more efficent.
But is CO2 cheaper than electrical cost?

Let's do the math:

say 20W per 10 hours per day per year= about 10$
CO2 over the same time frame: about 20 for a single refill, and I use about 20% more gas, so I end up saving 6$ per year.

That's for one tank, for larger systems, I'll save enev more or for multiple tanks(5= 30$ per year).

So this trade off is well worth it to me.

Some improvements can be made however to both methods.

Another trade off is Tilexing the disc once every 1-2 months, but that's 5 min and cup to mist Tilex on the disc while doing the water change.

I think running a spray bar along the back blasting out towards the front bottom edge is a good flow pattern, so a small power head, or the return could be split to accomodate this, and have a disc near there(or a needle wheel) to suck the mist into and spew out the mist hortizontally along the rear bottom of the tank for the entire length.

I did this method with a Reactor + spray bar, plus feed into the return pump in a sump set up.

Worked very well.

There's trade offs for using long spray bars and some designs will not look good using that however. The disc are more touchy to get right and set also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sunfire99

In my circmstance, I needed the additional flow and had an unused bulkhead. I'm sure there are more effective ways to increase flow, but this seemed a reasonable alternative especially given that it seems fairly newbie (me) friendly. I will still need to verify how well the mist distributes throughout the tank.


----------



## Minsc

Hey Sunfire,

The venturi attachment should be pulling on your tubing, not pushing on it, so there shouldn't be any reason for it to pop off or any need for another check valve.

That said, making sure all your connections are nice and tight, and adding additional check valves certainly isn't a bad thing.


----------



## sunfire99

> This morning I checked it and found my bubble counter completely filled with water meaning that when off there was enough reverse pressure from the venturi end of the pump. The bubble counter has a built in one way valve, but apparently it is not strong enough? I also noticed that the pressure guage on the CO2 regulator was at 30psi. It is set to 15psi. Once the system came back on, I got a rapid production of bubbles until the pressure went back down to 15psi.


I would have thought so until I read about Dmaaaaax's experiences. My bubble counter will be a foot higher than the pump but still, that could become a mess and what's another $13 for a check valve right? Besides I needed some of those cool angled scissors from Green Leaf also.


----------



## Minsc

Looking at his picture, the reason that was happening was the placement of the bubble counter beneath the venturi. Interesting...

The venturi pulls quite hard on the CO2 line, which creates a vacuum inside the line. When the vacuum in the line overcomes the vacuum in the venturi, it pulls some water back into the line. It is pretty cool to watch, the CO2 doesn't enter the pump in a constant stream of bubbles, it is more like intermittent slurps. In this case, it was able to trickle down the line into the bubble counter over night.

Anyway, I'm just trying to be informative. Having multiple check valves is a good idea.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Redundancy can be a good thing sometimes 


-Orlando


----------



## Left C

Has anyone tried the Mag 2 250 gph with the needle wheel and venturi? What filter, pump or powerhead was used?
http://customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=PS-DM06002


----------



## bibbels

I just set up a new tank this week (40 breeder) and have plumbed a Mag 2 fractionating inline with an Eheim 2217. Looks like it mists ok - still too cloudy to evaluate.

My only gripe so far is how loud the mag is. I may be going to diffuser disc on this tank just for noise reasons.

I'll give it some time and see how it goes.


----------



## Left C

Thanks for the information, bibbles.


----------



## MoparMuscl

bibbels said:


> My only gripe so far is how loud the mag is. I may be going to diffuser disc on this tank just for noise reasons.
> 
> I'll give it some time and see how it goes.



I'll second this. I just hooked up a Mag 9.5 needle wheel pump on my 105 gallon yesterday. This think is noisy! I am wondering if this is normal, but it must be. It makes a vibrating rattling kinda noise plus the noise the CO2 makes when going through. The CO2 noise I can live with, but the rattling is crazy!

Other than the noise it looks like it is doing a great job!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I use a few 9.5's and the only noise I can hear if the bubble getting smashed up. Any other noise may be equipment rattling around. I use the pad they come with on the bottom and it eliminates most vibration.
In some stands I use a small piece of insulation for vibration noise. Other than that, its pretty silent other than the bubbles getting smashed up.

-Orlando


----------



## Minsc

Hmm, my mag3 is pretty dang quiet. I have mine sitting on the ground, on top of a mouse pad, so the vibrations don't get transferred to anything.
Any pump can be noisy if it is rattling something else, and stands can work as great megaphones at times:icon_roll

It also seems that pumps need a few days to settle down.


----------



## Jeff5614

Both the Sedra and Mag 3 that I had were pretty quiet other than the CO2 going through the pump. I also used a rubber matt under the pump to dampen any vibrations. That being said, I went back to a reactor. Pearling is one thing but I just couldn't get used to the look of that much mist blowing around.


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> I use a few 9.5's and the only noise I can hear if the bubble getting smashed up. Any other noise may be equipment rattling around. I use the pad they come with on the bottom and it eliminates most vibration.
> In some stands I use a small piece of insulation for vibration noise. Other than that, its pretty silent other than the bubbles getting smashed up.
> 
> -Orlando


It's defiantly the pump. I have it hanging from the inlet hose so it is not touching anything. When it does touch something it rattles BAD. Is there any certain position that is is quieter in or could the impeller be out of place? If yours is quiet then something is wrong with mine. Any suggestions other than exchanging it?

Here's how mine is mounted. It says nothing in the instructions about the orientation for the pump, so this best fit my setup. It hangs from the inlet tube, so it is not touching anything. Normally the output would go straight into my UV sterilizer, but I broke the quartz tube when I put the needle wheel setup in. It's fed w/ a 1" inlet line and a 3/4" outlet.


----------



## Jeff5614

Mopar,
That's an interesting manifold you've built. Does it hamper the output of the canisters much?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Is it possible, because its hanging from the tube that vibration is resonating throughout your manifold assembly. Thus causing significant noise levels?

Maybe adding a cushion underneath to bring tension off the tube might help.


----------



## MoparMuscl

Jeff5614 said:


> Mopar,
> That's an interesting manifold you've built. Does it hamper the output of the canisters much?


 To my knowledge no. I can shut all my valves except for one 2217, and the flow remains unchanged. I can have them all open and still open my drain (I hook a garden hose to it and run it outside) and the flow of everything remains constant. It is fed by two pickups in the tank. The large one feeds to a 1" ID line and the other to a 3/4" line. Those meet up at the right side of the manifold with 1-1/4" PVC pipe that the manifold is made of. All the tee's off the manifold are 1" down. The tank is a 105 tall, so that helps create some water pressure in the manifold.

It works good. For water changes I drain the tank outside with a garden hose just by twisting the knob. To refill I shut the intake valve and hook the garden hose nipple on the manifold into my RO water container (50 gal trash can). It pumps/filters make easy work of it. Since I never drop the water level below my intake I never have to prime anything.


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> Is it possible, because its hanging from the tube that vibration is resonating throughout your manifold assembly. Thus causing significant noise levels?
> 
> Maybe adding a cushion underneath to bring tension off the tube might help.


I can hold the pump in my hand away from everything and while grabbing it firmly, which should dampen everything, I still hear noise!!!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hmmm? Maybe the impeller is not balanced well? At this point Im at a loss. 

Is it a loud humming of the pump? Or more of a mechanical noise? I hope that made sense


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> Hmmm? Maybe the impeller is not balanced well? At this point Im at a loss.
> 
> Is it a loud humming of the pump? Or more of a mechanical noise? I hope that made sense


It seems like it is BOTH a humming of the pump and a mechanical noise. I took a video of it. During the video both of my 2217 are off, so the only thing running is the Mag pump. I don't know why the sound cuts off early, but here it is.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

How long has your pump been hooked up for? Thanks for the video Well done....


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> How long has your pump been hooked up for? Thanks for the video Well done....


3 days.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I would bet in a week or 2 your pump would quiet down some once it gets a little use to it.

-O


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> I would bet in a week or 2 your pump would quiet down some once it gets a little use to it.
> 
> -O


I hope so. Thanks! I didn't mean to detract from this thread. I just wanted to share my needle wheel setup.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I have the danner mag wheel and it is quiet.. the only noise I hear is the co2 breaking up.

how can I modify the stock needle wheel to the meshmod? do I have to buy a different impeller that is like a disc?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Don't fix it if it its not broken


----------



## Left C

Orlando said:


> The Danner Pumps work very well. Ive been using them for some time now with no complaints. Ive been waiting for Eheims Needle wheel pump hat has been available in Europe for a long time and now they are finally available.
> The impeller in the Eheim pump looks very promising, so anybody looking to do this definitely give Eheim Needle Wheel pumps a try.
> 
> -Orlando


The Eheim 1103 needle wheel pump is available in the US now, but it is $176.77 though.
http://www.petblvd.com/cgi-bin/pb/EHP11078.html?mv_pc=froogle
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20395


----------



## BayBoy1205

I have 2 of the mag 9.5. The one injecting CO2 is quiet except when it starts smashing the CO2 then you can hear that. Now the other one that runs the UV was noisy when I plumbed it in. I took it back out and took it apart. I noticed the rubber flapped on the output was bent down. I flipped it back up and put everything back together. Now quiet as the other one. May want to check that.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

The Eheim pump's are nice. We know the quality is good, but the price is bad.

Hopefully I can get a few to try out next week.

-Orlando


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Orlando said:


> Don't fix it if it its not broken


I would just like to have the co2 bubbles broken up more.. it comes out in a nice mist.. just not as much as I would think it should.. I know that the mesh would break it up more.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

You may be able to build a small loop somehow so there is more dwell time. Cheap and easy 

-O


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Never thought of that. thank you Orlando!


----------



## Left C

Orlando said:


> The Eheim pump's are nice. We know the quality is good, but the price is bad.
> 
> Hopefully I can get a few to try out next week.
> 
> -Orlando


That sounds good. 

Eheim's description says that it is quiet. That got my attention because a few people are complaining about the noise that a needle wheel makes.


----------



## bibbels

Orlando said:


> I would bet in a week or 2 your pump would quiet down some once it gets a little use to it.
> 
> -O


FWIW, mine got significantly quieter after several days.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

bibbels said:


> FWIW, mine got significantly quieter after several days.



The pumps I have been using are all dead silent. The only noise you do hear are bubbles being pulverized by the impeller.

When the co2 is off, you cant hear a thing. 

-Orlando


----------



## sunfire99

I use a Mag3 submerged in a sump and literally cannot tell when it is on or off, with or without the CO2 injection. It works well, but I'm going to play with it tomorrow using a ball valve to restrict flow and see if it better breaks up the bubbles, or has any impact on CO2 saturation levels. Effectively, longer dwell time using restriction. At least I think that's how it will work. I'll post up results.


----------



## bartak

Just a heads up, the doctors started carrying these pumps. pump


----------



## plantbrain

BTW, if you hav a buil in overflow, you can drain the tank down a bit, say 70% water change, drill some 1/2" bulk head holes(2), add the bulk heads then make the loop right in the overflow and send it out and back along the rear wall of the aquarium.

This hides it and keeps it away from the filter.

I do not want a pump that drives 700gph.

I do not think many of you have a tank that's big enough to use a pump that size, it can be done with a smaller pump.

You can blast the mist from there using the filter Powerheads that are more effective at water movement with much less noise and energy use(if needed or want to try it out).

The mesh will yeild the best dwell time and lower flow rates, as will adding a loop to recirculate.

I am trying to think of a simpler way to add mesh to the impeller in the Rio and Maxi jet pumps. The idea is to simply cut a little into each blade and attach the mesh into that. Since the volume of gas we are adding is smaller, I will heat the rigid 3/16" air line feed to a fine tip to make the bubbles smaller(you could poke with a hot needle into the plastic and make several).

A small saw blade/eg hack saw to make the cuts into the blades should suffice, and then some super glue to attach. 

Better get to work

Tom Barr


----------



## Left C

> I received my Eheim 1103 needle wheel pump Friday and I picked up some parts to be used inline with an Eheim 2028 from Lowe's.
> 
> I wasn't able to find a 1" FPT x 5/8" barbed adapter. This would of been perfect.
> 
> I didn't use the stock 1" FPT x 1" barbed adapters either. I had to use one of each of the following on the intake and exhaust sides:
> 1" x 1" FPT SCH80 PVC Coupling
> 1" MPT x 3/4" FPT SCH80 PVC Bushing
> brass 5/8" barbed insert by 3/4" MPT adapter.
> 
> I purchased two of each of these parts plus a two pack of clamps.
> 
> I do not have it hooked up at the moment, but the pump is a nice compact unit that is a little larger than my fist. The flow is adjustable from 211 to 713 gph. It comes with an airline (or CO2) fitting.
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=20395


Would the Eheim 1103 needle wheel pump benefit by using either a 3/4" or 1/2" Kent Venturi injector for CO2 input instead of its stock 1" intake to make a better mist before the Eheim needle wheel pump resulting in finer bubbles? 

It will be feed by a 277 gph Eheim 2028 that uses 5/8" ID tubing? The Eheim 1103 needle wheel pump is rated for as low as 211 gph and up to 713 gph with its adjustable throttle. I surely don't need 700 gph or anywhere near that, but its low range settings are what I am planning on using. I also have the products to add mesh to the needle wheel if needed. What say yea?


----------



## Minsc

In case anyone is wondering, running your filter and needlewheel pump on separate loops will give a lot more flow than running them inline.
A LOT more flow.


----------



## plantbrain

Which is why modifying the impeller for most any powerhead might be wiser:



















I snipped the Rio 100 impeller so it went from 5 blades to 15.

Let's take this very simple modification one simple step farther.

Take some super glue, or 5 min epoxy, add some plastic scrub pad shavings, 1-3 mm long and glue it on the the blades. wipe off excess, trim any errant pieces, then add back to the powerhead. Basically "furring" up the baldes to increase surface area, dwell time and atomization of CO2. 

This is every bit as good and much easier to make than the mesh, cutting the plastic round plate to the right size, adding zip ties etc to the mesh.

That's a PITA.

The above works much easier and can be applied to any small powerhead, or large one. You do not need such a monster to drive the needle wheel, we are only adding SMALL amounts of CO2, not Skimming a marine reef and requiring massive amounts of air. 

Anyone that can use snips, glue and scissors can do the above modification is 5 minutes at virtually no cost. If you can honestly beat that DIY approach for needle wheeling, I'm all ears.

This works on Rio 180, 1000, or a maxi jet, or the larger pumps.
Any impeller can be furred up to increase the surface area and dwell time.

I'm not certain why so many keep wanting to add more and more, larger and larger pump flows, friggin monster pumps to drive these systems for needle wheeling and Mazzei's.

Cost lots, makes lots of noise, waste lots of energy/electric cost, cannot be used on smaller systems, requires more technical skills, plumbing etc.
That's fine if that's what you like to mess with, but some pragmatism is certainly in order if you want to promote it to the general planted CO2 enrichment crowd. I'm looking for methods that run on less, easier for the most to do, so the idea will catch on and be more useful to a larger % of hobbyists.

Tiny in line pumps with a loop for the in line set ups can be done by snipping the blades and furring them up with glue:

The Ehiem or the Rainbow 1200 are good, 60$-80 or 25$ for the Rainbow.
Here's one with 10 W and 127 GPH and 1/2" connections:
http://www.marineandreef.com/SearchResults.asp

25$............

I dunno.............if you can mod the impeller easy, these start looking much more tasty for use. For internal applications, the Rio 180 is hard to beat, tiny and easy to convert. 10-15$. 5 minutes.

Even with the larger Rainbow pumps, moding the impeller is a few minute operation.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Left C

USPlastic.com sells clear acrylic circles that are 1/8" thick. They come in 1", 1 1/4", 1 1/2", 2", 3", 4", 5" and 6" diameters should you want to try a mesh mod like this one.

I also have four small external pumps to try either a blade mod like Tom did or a mesh mod should the Eheim 1103 not work out. One is a new Pan World NH-10PX (119/182 GPH and 1.0 to 2.0 meters max head) pump and three used, but in mint condition Iwaki pumps:
MD-10-NL02 (174/190 GPH and 1.5 to 2.1 meters max head)
MD-10-NL03 (174/190 GPH and 1.5 to 2.1 meters max head)
MD-6 (127/143 GPH and 1.0 to 1.4 meters max head)


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> The Eheim pump's are nice. We know the quality is good, but the price is bad.
> 
> Hopefully I can get a few to try out next week.
> 
> -Orlando


Hey Orlando, did you ever get a chance to try one of these Eheim pumps out? I'm still not satisfied with the noise level from my Mag 9.5.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Yes, I did! I have 3 pumps out of a box of 10 and all 3 sound the same as the Danner pump. 

Do you have anything plumbed in-line to your intake of your Danner pump? Like a heater,reactor etc?

-Orlando


----------



## plantbrain

If you have not tried the Rio modifcation(or similar), try it, it is super easy, and requires a much less powerful pump/cost/energy use.

15$ and it's good for about a 100 gallon tank with no noise, super mazzei mist fine froth and a pretty small space in the tank(Rio 600 hidden down low in the rear).

Snip and bend the impeller as shown above, no fur required(unless you really wanna).

You can modify the in line pumps in a similar fashion(impeller snipping/subdividing) and they will produce less noise hopefully.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I like that Tom, those impellers above are from a Rio pump? Which?


-O


----------



## MoparMuscl

Orlando said:


> Yes, I did! I have 3 pumps out of a box of 10 and all 3 sounds the same as the Danner pump.
> 
> Do you have anything plumbed in-line to your intake of your Danner pump? Like a heater,reactor etc?
> 
> -Orlando


Nothing inline on the intake. It's fed with a 1" inlet hose. I have a UV sterilizer inline after the pump. I have removed it with no reduction in noise. Is there a chance that I need to take the impeller apart and check something? I know in multiple post you have commented about it being quite when the CO2 is not running. Mine is loud w/o CO2. When I unplug the needle wheel pump, I remember how quiet my tank use to be with just my two 2217's...I miss that!:frown:


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Yeah, that does not sound good. All of the pumps I have are darn near silent with no co2 pumping..Maybe disassemble and reassemble the whole thing and see if that helps

-O

Please keep us posted as I try Toms mini pump idea


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Ok, I tried a very small Rio50 pump impeller modification and it did not work very well. Maybe its best for the larger of the smaller pumps like a 100.

The 50 just does not have enough pull or push to smash the bubbles. That being said, a bubble rate higher than 2-3BPS locked it right up 

Maybe I will try a RIO100 next time..

-O


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I have been playing around with a few needle wheel pumps in combination with a modified loop. Also I have been trying out a needle wheel pump with reactor modification.

The reactor method does seem to work very well so far, I will get more detailed specs as soon as I set up a couple more..


-O


----------



## smg980

Which would be the best external pump with needle wheel to use for CO2 diffusion? Looking to get more flow than just a reactor on a 2028, hence the need for an external pump over a reactor in-line with the 2028.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Danner or Eheim will work just fine


-O


----------



## milkdud

I have thought up another method for basically using a diffusor and then mixing it in a chamber prior to return to the tank from the sump. I think this is what I may use on my 110. I really would like as much CO2 as possible to be absorbed prior to entering the tank. The diffuser could be replaced with a NW pump.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

That should work fine
I have similar setups just like this, but without the diffuser part. I used Hydor ceramic tubes in its place and it works very well. 

-Orlando


----------



## riverrat

I modified a Rio 180. Took me 5 mins to do. It produces the best mist I have ever seen. Better than any diffuser. Pretty small pump so hiding it is not a problem. I have it in 40 breeder but I imagine anything 20gal or above would not be to intrusive. 

The one draw back to it is the noise.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

If its noise maybe try another pump..Ideally an external pump to keep stuff out of the tank and to keep temps down in the summer.

Regards,
Orlando


----------



## jart

Great thread.
I'm still having CO2 issues (twisted leaves) in some parts of my 72 gallon tank, even after adding extra circulation, so I'm thinking about setting up a needle wheel pump on a closed circuit.

My plan is to use a Danner Mag 3 Needle Wheel Pump (350 gph). At present, I also have an XP-3, Fluval 304, and a Koralia 2 powerhead for water movement (I'd like to eventually get rid of the Fluval and Koralia once the needle wheel loop is set up).

I will likely use Walter's idea (earlier in this thread) for the return (one tube which tees into two outlets once in the tank).

My tank is not drilled. How should I plan the intake tube? Would an intake tube from an XP-3 work OK? I would think that the needle wheel pumps don't like to be started dry. 

Thanks.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

jart said:


> Great thread.
> I'm still having CO2 issues (twisted leaves) in some parts of my 72 gallon tank, even after adding extra circulation, so I'm thinking about setting up a needle wheel pump on a closed circuit.
> 
> My plan is to use a Danner Mag 3 Needle Wheel Pump (350 gph). At present, I also have an XP-3, Fluval 304, and a Koralia 2 powerhead for water movement (I'd like to eventually get rid of the Fluval and Koralia once the needle wheel loop is set up).
> 
> I will likely use Walter's idea (earlier in this thread) for the return (one tube which tees into two outlets once in the tank).
> 
> My tank is not drilled. How should I plan the intake tube? Would an intake tube from an XP-3 work OK? I would think that the needle wheel pumps don't like to be started dry.
> 
> Thanks.



I think the 250gph pump would work well for a 72g tank. Ive yet to use one inline on a filter, but I'm sure others have and will chime in to lend a hand.
I'm guessing it would be pretty easy using a "T" on the return.
Maybe just build a loop on the return line and have less equipment in the tank.


-Orlando


----------



## jart

Orlando said:


> I think the 250gph pump would work well for a 72g tank.


Thanks Orlando... I'll consider the 250 gph pump instead of the 350 gph.



Orlando said:


> Ive yet to use one inline on a filter...


That is not my plan. I plan to run the needlewheel on its own loop, separate from the filter.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

That should be easy then.An extra inlet and return to the tank and your set. 


-Orlando


----------



## jart

Excellent! Thanks Orlando.
Original question still remains: 
My tank is not drilled. How should I plan the intake tube? Would an intake tube from an XP-3 work OK? I would think that the needle wheel pumps don't like to be started dry.


----------



## Minsc

jart said:


> Excellent! Thanks Orlando.
> Original question still remains:
> My tank is not drilled. How should I plan the intake tube? Would an intake tube from an XP-3 work OK? I would think that the needle wheel pumps don't like to be started dry.


You have to get a bit creative when priming a setup like that, but it can be done. You are right though, the system must be full of water before the pump can be turned on.

Do yourself a favor and add ball valves on both sides of the pump. That way, you can service the pump without breaking siphon, as well as control the output.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Ball Valves and unions work well for these set ups. 

I use 5/8 clear tubing,ball valves,unions and a set of inlet and return pipes. You can also use Modular fittings like these..

http://www.modularhose.com/

You will need some hose barbs, that will be easy to find...

-Orlando


----------



## Left C

jart said:


> ... My tank is not drilled. How should I plan the intake tube? Would an intake tube from an XP-3 work OK? I would think that the needle wheel pumps don't like to be started dry. ...


Have you considered using Eheim's Installation Set 1 which is the intake kit? It has a cap on top that you can unscrew to prime. Your XP-3's intake has that same feature too, doesn't it.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Some folks have been experimenting in fresh water tanks with PF4 Flatback Enkamat. I have been hearing really positive results from this modification. 

Needle wheel pumps seem to be the misting alternative these days compared to Mazzie misting systems. Both have trade offs, but I think the NW pumps positives out weigh the mazzei..


Regards,
Orlando


----------



## kali

i got a old mag 2 laying around , can i just buy the new needle wheel from mag and put in there? would it fit? i just found out that my reactor not doing any good job , i got big bubble come out every where in the tank , i want to do fx5 to reactor (the outlet of the reactor) will be the mag2 right there , then up to the tank , would that be a good idea? 
i will put the mag2 on timer with the co2, so when the co2 turn on the mag2 will be next to it ,...
thanks


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

You can add the new impeller for your pump, be sure to get the correct size for your pump.

I have not used one inline with a filter before, but many people have with good results. All of the needle wheels I use are on separate loops.

-Orlando


----------



## GTR

May or may not be worth buying the NW separate. That would depend on the condition of the impeller chamber on your old pump. If there's any wear at all I'd just buy the complete new pump with NW. IMO it takes a little more out of the pump to run a NW impeller vs the stock one since the air input isn't continuous/consistent.

Most of my experience with Mag drives is in SW though where calcium carbonate deposits beats them up.

SteveU


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Data has been collected by Adam on APC and he has been measuring power consumption with both regular and modified impellers. He has stated there is no difference in power consumption.. 

I would imagine pumps are the same, with the only real difference being the impeller?


----------



## kali

thanks guys .. i'll check out my mag tonight when i get home . haven't touching that mag since like forever


----------



## GTR

Not saying they'll draw more power using one impeller over the other. I'm simply saying that a pump that has air injected into it will not run as smoothly as one simply pumping water.

The impeller chambers on mag drives are prone to scoring from any foreign matter, shaft wear or anything else that might cause it to run out of balance. Don't get me wrong, I think Mag drives are fine pumps for the money but their tolerances are far from being precision.

I've had one bad experience running them continuously as an external pump and not sure I'd use them that way again.



















SteveU


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

That looks horrible I would agree if I had a pump that looked like that. Although, being used in salt water would add more wear to any pump. With the amount of flow needed for reef or salt tanks the excess sand and debris reek havoc on plumbing.
Kinda of like a sandblasting affect on components in long term use.

-Orlando


----------



## Minsc

kali said:


> i got a old mag 2 laying around , can i just buy the new needle wheel from mag and put in there? would it fit? i just found out that my reactor not doing any good job , i got big bubble come out every where in the tank , i want to do fx5 to reactor (the outlet of the reactor) will be the mag2 right there , then up to the tank , would that be a good idea?
> i will put the mag2 on timer with the co2, so when the co2 turn on the mag2 will be next to it ,...
> thanks


I run my mag with the stock impeller, and it chops the CO2 into microbubbles just fine, they look just as small as when I ran a gen-x with the needlewheel. It did take a few days to break in properly, though.

If you are plumbing inline with the filter, the pump needs to go on the filter's output, with CO2 being injected into the line between them. If you run the pump and filter on separate loops, you will need to have more equipment in the tank, but you will also have much increased flow.


----------



## kali

Minsc said:


> I run my mag with the stock impeller, and it chops the CO2 into microbubbles just fine, they look just as small as when I ran a gen-x with the needlewheel. It did take a few days to break in properly, though.
> 
> If you are plumbing inline with the filter, the pump needs to go on the filter's output, with CO2 being injected into the line between them. If you run the pump and filter on separate loops, you will need to have more equipment in the tank, but you will also have much increased flow.


 which mag # do you got there.? yea i'll still keeping my reactor but the outlet thats where i put my mag2 in there , so somewhat the co2 still dissolve in the reactor and whatever didn't, it will chop up by the mag2 , thats why i dont want to put the bigger mag in there . it may too strong and suck all the water out of the reactor before the fx5 can feed.


----------



## plantbrain

riverrat said:


> I modified a Rio 180. Took me 5 mins to do. It produces the best mist I have ever seen. Better than any diffuser. Pretty small pump so hiding it is not a problem. I have it in 40 breeder but I imagine anything 20gal or above would not be to intrusive.
> 
> The one draw back to it is the noise.


To reduce noise, you reduce the bubble size coming into the impeller chamber, so use a tiny hole for bubbles(melt the tip of the plastic tube coming in), use a small air stone etc.

Larger pumps tend to make less noise with bubbles.
I can hardly hear the rio 1100 on the 180 Gal tank.

I think we should also discuss efficacy and CO2 waste.
Disc are without a doubt, the most wasteful methods.
Well, the bell method is the worst........

Anyway, adding a pair of methods, say a reactor that does 100% or close to dissolution, and a small mist/disc system to get the advantages of the microbulbbles when you want them and being to shut it off if you want etc, is nice.

I have a sump and add the CO2 through the impeller return, then have a disc inside the aquarium.

Another tank, just the disc.

Another tank, just the needle wheel.

One tank: no CO2 at all.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Minsc

kali said:


> which mag # do you got there.? yea i'll still keeping my reactor but the outlet thats where i put my mag2 in there , so somewhat the co2 still dissolve in the reactor and whatever didn't, it will chop up by the mag2 , thats why i dont want to put the bigger mag in there . it may too strong and suck all the water out of the reactor before the fx5 can feed.


I use a mag 3 on a 40 breeder. I've used it inline with an XP3 and on it's own closed loop, and I like the closed loop better, it gives enough power to push water back into the plant beds when I let them get overgrown.

Are you having CO2 bubbles make it through your reactor and into your tank?
If not, I suspect you won't get any microbubbles in the setup you have described, you will probably just get a boost in overall output.


----------



## kali

Minsc said:


> I use a mag 3 on a 40 breeder. I've used it inline with an XP3 and on it's own closed loop, and I like the closed loop better, it gives enough power to push water back into the plant beds when I let them get overgrown.
> 
> Are you having CO2 bubbles make it through your reactor and into your tank?
> If not, I suspect you won't get any microbubbles in the setup you have described, you will probably just get a boost in overall output.


can you tell me more or some pic about your set up? so you setting it up inline with the xp3 what do you mean on its own close loop? the xp3 or the mag? 
yes i got too many big bubble all over the tank even on top of the surface , i already put the T and the ball valve on the fx5 to feed my UV light, right now the ball valve is open all the way , thats mean the UV flow is much more than the reactor but still same problem ,


----------



## ashappar

*OTP-1000 with meshmod*

hey guys, I've used the OTP-1000 needlewheel pump for a while. Recently
I did meshmod on a spare impeller to try it out. I am getting a larger number
of smaller bubbles with less gas input, so I'm really pleased with it.

click the thumb for a bigger image

 

maybe a couple comments about implementing the meshmod :
I've seen impellers modified where the top row of blades are removed and
I avoided that with the idea that I didnt want to ruin an impeller.

Actually I wish I had just done that to start with. With both rows of blades
and then 2 layers of mesh and ties, it got pretty tight and I had to do lots of
trimming and adjusting to get it to fit. Next one I do, the top row of blades
are gone.

I'm using these in 40G cubes (24x24x17tall) pump inside the tank, ghetto pvc
spraybar off the outlet. not fancy but very functional. with the meshmod,
more debris does get trapped in the impeller so I have to prefilter.

I had an analyzer on the pump before and after meshmod and there was no
significant change in wattage. For the OTP-1000 the range was between
24 and 26W in any case. Adding prefilter and up/down on gas flow no
significant effect. I did manage to airlock it once and that took it to 19W


----------



## Minsc

kali said:


> can you tell me more or some pic about your set up? so you setting it up inline with the xp3 what do you mean on its own close loop? the xp3 or the mag?
> yes i got too many big bubble all over the tank even on top of the surface , i already put the T and the ball valve on the fx5 to feed my UV light, right now the ball valve is open all the way , thats mean the UV flow is much more than the reactor but still same problem ,


Both the mag and the Rena have their own inflow and outflow, they aren't connected at all any more. The CO2 only goes into the mag.
It took a couple months of experimenting, and that is just how it worked best in my tank. If bubbles are getting through your plumbing, putting the mag inline as you described might work really well. Otherwise, you could just use the FX5 for filtration and use the mag on it's own plumbing loop either as a needlewheel or to power the reactor.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

ashappar said:


> hey guys, I've used the OTP-1000 needlewheel pump for a while. Recently
> I did meshmod on a spare impeller to try it out. I am getting a larger number
> of smaller bubbles with less gas input, so I'm really pleased with it.
> 
> click the thumb for a bigger image
> 
> 
> 
> maybe a couple comments about implementing the meshmod :
> I've seen impellers modified where the top row of blades are removed and
> I avoided that with the idea that I didnt want to ruin an impeller.
> 
> Actually I wish I had just done that to start with. With both rows of blades
> and then 2 layers of mesh and ties, it got pretty tight and I had to do lots of
> trimming and adjusting to get it to fit. Next one I do, the top row of blades
> are gone.
> 
> I'm using these in 40G cubes (24x24x17tall) pump inside the tank, ghetto pvc
> spraybar off the outlet. not fancy but very functional. with the meshmod,
> more debris does get trapped in the impeller so I have to prefilter.
> 
> I had an analyzer on the pump before and after meshmod and there was no
> significant change in wattage. For the OTP-1000 the range was between
> 24 and 26W in any case. Adding prefilter and up/down on gas flow no
> significant effect. I did manage to airlock it once and that took it to 19W


 Thanks Adam!
I was hoping you would chime in with this valuable information.


Regards,
Orlando


----------



## kali

Minsc said:


> Both the mag and the Rena have their own inflow and outflow, they aren't connected at all any more. The CO2 only goes into the mag.
> It took a couple months of experimenting, and that is just how it worked best in my tank. If bubbles are getting through your plumbing, putting the mag inline as you described might work really well. Otherwise, you could just use the FX5 for filtration and use the mag on it's own plumbing loop either as a needlewheel or to power the reactor.


 found the mag last night ..plug it in , none moving, dont know whats wrong with it , but just by the look of the pump , i wont trust by running it external anyways , im eyes balling the panworld 10PX-MD10 external pump 180 GPH max flow..you think any pump will do or have to be needle wheel pump?


----------



## BayBoy1205

*No pH change with needle wheel. Need Help please.*

I have had my mag 9.5 setup for a while and not getting a change in pH. After talking with Orlando about my setup he suggested increasing the intake to 1" instead of 3/4" I increased the intake to 1.25". The output is still at 3/4" I get nice fine bubbles but no change on the pH probe or the two drop checkers I have in the tank. This is a 125G tank. I have the CO2 cranked going into the needle wheel. Pressure is set around 13psi and bubble count is allot.

Attached is a diagram on my setup. Any help would be appreciated. If a new plumbing scheme is needed I'm ready to do it at this point.

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## BayBoy1205

After communicating with Orlando I will be letting the pH controller run all the time and do its job and see if this helps my problem.


----------



## MrBlackThumb

I ordered Mag2 fractionating pump already. Is it submersible? I would like to put it in my 75 with a prefilter to blow bubbles to the front along the back wall near the bottom. Anybody set it up this way?


----------



## MoparMuscl

As stated months ago, my Mag needle wheel is very loud and I can't take it anymore. I searched online and found the Eheim needle wheel for $130 so I bought it tonight. I'll let everyone know how it works out. Just figured that I would share since they are normally $170.

http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...1103220&Category_Code=Clearance&Store_Code=PA


----------



## dantra

MoparMuscl said:


> As stated months ago, my Mag needle wheel is very loud and I can't take it anymore. I searched online and found the Eheim needle wheel for $130 so I bought it tonight. I'll let everyone know how it works out. Just figured that I would share since they are normally $170.
> 
> http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...1103220&Category_Code=Clearance&Store_Code=PA



Great pump! It's very efficient in breaking up the bubbles into a mist, does the job very well.

I use that same pump in my setup and I'm very happy with it. _Plug and play baby!_

Its very quiet when the door to the aquarium stand is closed but when its open you can hear the bubbles being broken up. 

Here is a photo of my needle wheel pump:


----------



## MoparMuscl

dantra said:


> Great pump! It's very efficient in breaking up the bubbles into a mist, does the job very well.
> 
> I use that same pump in my setup and I'm very happy with it. _Plug and play baby!_
> 
> Its very quiet when the door to the aquarium stand is closed but when its open you can hear the bubbles being broken up.



Thanks! I'm happy with performance of the Mag 9.5, but it is just too loud. It has an electronic humming noise at all times. I'm glad to hear the Eheim is quiet.


----------



## jart

dantra said:


> Great pump! It's very efficient in breaking up the bubbles into a mist, does the job very well.
> 
> I use that same pump in my setup and I'm very happy with it. _Plug and play baby!_


Curious if you have any pics of the way you have this set up... especially what you are using for your intake tube. Thanks.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

You can use any intake tubes you like. You can use replacement set of standard canister filter pipes, or DIY your own out of acrylic or PVC.


----------



## MrBlackThumb

Got the Mag 2 fractionating pump two days ago. Installed it outside on a seperate loop. It was loud and it's leaking too around the gasket where the volute meets the pump body. I need to contact Danner on this.


----------



## JDowns

Mag's should be next to silent. Those experiencing humming may be due to harmonics. Place the pump on something padded to disipate the vibrations. Also make sure any lines are not in direct contact with the stand. Think of it as a drum.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I have been using Mag's for some time. Like JDowns said, padding under the pump may help. I use Teflon tape on any threaded connection to the pump.


----------



## plantbrain

If the needle wheel starts making more noise, you might have not enough flow. Reduce the CO2 bubble rate and you can tell.

It's likely you need a higher flow pump if so. A little noise is fine, but you start to lose efficiency as the larger bubbles are fed in at a higher rate without also compensate with higher flow.

A pre airstone/disc might help reduce the bubble size

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jazzlvr123

Im thinking of switching over my mazzei to an inline needle wheel after reading about all the good reviews I'm going to use a mag drive pump with a mesh modded impeller ill keep ya'll updated on how it works!


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Please do jazzlvr123. 

The stock impeller works fantastic without having to mod anything. I get extremely tiny micro bubbles all through the tank. The impeller is actually made very well so if you do decide to mod it I think it will be very easy for you to do with its current design.

-O


----------



## MoparMuscl

JDowns said:


> Mag's should be next to silent. Those experiencing humming may be due to harmonics. Place the pump on something padded to disipate the vibrations. Also make sure any lines are not in direct contact with the stand. Think of it as a drum.


I tried that. No luck. It always made a fairly loud humming noise. I installed the Eheim yesterday and it is much quieter. I'm happy with it. The bubbles seem to be the exact same size as the Mag I was using.


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## MrBlackThumb

Like MoparMuscl said, it's loud humming noise. I even disconnected everything and just tried running the pump inside the tank by itself. Something is definitely not rightj, not to mention that it's dripping too. I'll contact Danner tomorrow.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

MrBlackThumb said:


> Like MoparMuscl said, it's loud humming noise. I even disconnected everything and just tried running the pump inside the tank by itself. Something is definitely not rightj, not to mention that it's dripping too. I'll contact Danner tomorrow.


 How do you have your pump plumbed in?


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## MrBlackThumb

I plumbed the pump in a seperate loop from the filter, on its own intake and output hoses. I used the included pipe that has CO2 feeder. On the output, I bought a female thread with a barb piece from hardware store. The pump was running noisily, circulating water but has a dripping leak where the volute meets the pump body. I checked the four phillips screws and they're there tight.

I then ran the pump submerged in the aquarium by itself with nothing on it. The loud humming noise is still there. I must have gotten a lemon.


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## MrBlackThumb

OK, I've contacted Danner mfg. They'll send me a new volute & rotor. Hopefully that'll solve the problem. I'll update you guys when I got them in.


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## NJAquaBarren

I like the seperate loop idea. How about a picture in addition to the update? Love a good project.


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## khanzer22

I just bought a Danner Mag 7 and I'm planning to make a DIY closed loop plumbing... I'm thinking of using 3/4 pvc for the intake and 1/2 pvc for the return and use a T slip at the end... I will use 5/8 ID flexi hose in between (pvc to pump - intake / pump to pvc - return)... Will that work? I mean, will the pressure of the return flow increase (by reducing the pvc size) even if it's split into 2? Or should I still use a flow accelerator/loc-lines?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Im not completely sure what you have planned. But, I have a few Mag 9 NW pumps plumbed with 1" SpaFlex feeding the pump followed by 3/4 SpaFlex back to the tank. 
All of the NW pumps I use are on closed loops.


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## khanzer22

Let me clarify... I was planning to make a DIY intake and return pipe (instead of buying customflo water system) to hang on my tank for my closed loop CO2 NW pump... The Mag 7 I bought has 3/4 barbed venturi intake and 1/2MPT output (I think your 9.5 is bigger)... That said, i was thinking of making the intake pipe bigger (so no water starvation) by using 3/4 pvc and barb then connect a 5/8ID flexi hose to connect to the pump's venturi intake barb (which is also 3/4)... For the return, I'll use 1/2 to 3/4 barb, use 5/8ID flexi hose then connect to the 1/2 pipe for the return/outflow...

Hope I didn't make it more confusing... 



Orlando said:


> But, I have a few Mag 9 NW pumps plumbed with 1" SpaFlex feeding the pump followed by 3/4 SpaFlex back to the tank.
> 
> All of the NW pumps I use are on closed loops.


Did you still use pvc with your closed loop or just plain SpaFlex? Would you mind posting a pic? Thanks!


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## 2wheelsx2

Instead of using these NW type pumps, what about using a Koralia style powerhead and a ceramic diffuser underneath it? Has anyone tried that? I've done it in my 20 gallon and the CO2 distribution appears to be much better. I haven't tried it in my 125 gallon yet as I have a Koralia 2 in it, and want to get a Koralia 1 before I do that.


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## MrBlackThumb

Got my replacement needle wheel rotor and volute+oring. Now the pump is quiet, at least inside the tank with no attachment, just the pump itself running. Will try putting the pump outside on a seperate loop.


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## jart

To restrict the flow on a needle wheel pump (I just bought an Eheim), should I place an inline ball valve on the intake, outtake, or both?


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## Regloh

These kind of pumps should always be throttled on the output...


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

*Its been a while sense I updated around this thread. I was messing around with a few of our pumps and decided to mesh mod them to see if there would be a difference. I have noticed a significant performance boost out of this mod. 

So if your looking to get the most out of your pump give it a go. I could almost compare this to the Mazzei loops I had previously used before.*


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

jart said:


> To restrict the flow on a needle wheel pump (I just bought an Eheim), should I place an inline ball valve on the intake, outtake, or both?


*
Its never good to starve a pump, but you can throttle back with a ball valve on the outflow*


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

*I can also add, but not to sure yet, but it seems the mesh mod has also increased the flow of a few of the pumps. Overall, I would do this for any pump that is used to diffuse co2.*


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Mesh mod has been performing well so far. The only concern I have is how well if will hold up to co2.... I guess we will see


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## Zolek

Is there any way to plumb a needle wheel so that you can toggle it between producing mist and fully dissolving the co2?


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## plantbrain

Simply send the mist water to a reservoir. 
Gives it time to fully dissolve, you can run a 8ft length of hose and loop it up like a rope etc, then return to the tank.

I use a Rio 1100 on my 180 Gal, it's been more stable than any mazzi venturi, simply snipped the impellers and it's ultra fine. I suppose I could get a better dispersion if I added a spray bar to the outflow or similar direction oriented out flow.

I have some room and space to hide it, so I might do that at some point.

Big gripe is really having a pump inside the tank.
So a small pump is really all you need, and most DIY mods work dandy IME, external plumb works, but not applicable in many cases.

A small chopper pump that is external water proof would be ideal.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Zolek

Will this work? When upper ball valves are closed it goes straight into tank, when they are open and lower is closed the water takes a 15 foot loop and dissolves the co2? 

question: is the lower bypass route at all necessary? does it somehow spare the canister from the effects of being run inline with a pump?


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## plantbrain

Yep, that's what I was sort of suggesting.

I'd use the by pass lower plumb config as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## justinq

Not to resurrect what looks like a dead thread, but this method is new to me and I'm really interested in replacing my inline reactor with something like this. I don't fully understand how these are set up, though. I'm not extremely technically inclined, and DIY isn't my strong point. Reading through this thread, I'm a little confused. How do you set one of these up for inline use, say with an XP3? I get that you attach it to the output, but how exactly do you do that and attach the CO2 line. How do you set one up for use in the tank? I'd be willing to spend some extra money if it meant not having to modify or put something together myself. I searched all over for a simple explanation geared towards people who don't already know all about this and I haven't been successful. Not to be stupid, but could someone give me a "for dummies" version of what I would need to buy and how I would set it up?


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## milesm

justinq said:


> Not to resurrect what looks like a dead thread, but this method is new to me and I'm really interested in replacing my inline reactor with something like this. I don't fully understand how these are set up, though. I'm not extremely technically inclined, and DIY isn't my strong point. Reading through this thread, I'm a little confused. How do you set one of these up for inline use, say with an XP3? I get that you attach it to the output, but how exactly do you do that and attach the CO2 line. How do you set one up for use in the tank? I'd be willing to spend some extra money if it meant not having to modify or put something together myself. I searched all over for a simple explanation geared towards people who don't already know all about this and I haven't been successful. Not to be stupid, but could someone give me a "for dummies" version of what I would need to buy and how I would set it up?


check out http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/5809-Needle-wheel-DIY-modifications. 

btw, the needlewheel is primarily for powerheads and pumps, not canister filters and it will introduce co2 mist into your tank.


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## Jeff5614

You can plumb one into the outflow of your canister or you can run them on their own loop. Have a look at the pic Orlando has in post #84. Water enters through the right and CO2 is injected using that small brass fitting you see at the 12:00 position on the PVC he's connecting his with. The CO2 is then carried into the pump, atomized by the needle wheel impeller and then exits out the other side. 

Plumbing one inline with your canister isn't hard you just need the correct size fittings. Schedule 80 PVC is available in lots of sizes with a barb on one side that would fit your canister tubing and a threaded connection on the other end to attach to the pump. You want to pick one that has a flow rating close to your canister if you want to go inline. If you want to run it on a closed loop then pick whatever gph you think will suit you. If I can hook one up anyone can.

They're very effective. The only reason I went back to a reactor was I didn't like the look of the mist.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I have plans to modify the existing pump that you see in my first post with an inline diffuser prior to the pump. I have already mesh modded the impeller, I will now experiment with this guy inline before the impeller/pump. 
Fine co2 mist entering the pump can only lead to good things


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

So far this modification has performed extremely well. Much more effective than bubbling into a needle wheel pump. You can go from 3-4BPS down to 1-2 BPS. Thats huge co2 savings for me


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## zoomzoom

*help a rookie*

I have the Octopus OTP-1000 needle wheel pump with the grey threaded input... can anyone tell me what other plumbing parts I need to get to make a closed loop (not inline)? I'm new at this... 

Here's an image of the pump:


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

All you need is a set of inlet and return pipes to get water to and from your tank. Then just thread some pvc hose barbs to your pump and slide some tubing on. Works the same way a canister filter would.


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## reybie

What would be the smallest pump recommendation for a 45 gal tank if I want to try and do a closed heating/diffusion loop?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hmmm, maybe one of those newer Ehiem needle wheel pumps with an adjustable flow rate?


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## fresh.salty

Orlando... Using the diffuser you show above on a dedicated loop do you think the fractionating impeller would do much more than a conventional impeller?

I'm considering adding a loop but would like to split the return to each corner or by using a T as close to the middle as possible since the tank is center braced.

Tank is a 90g... Mag 3 or 5?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

The mist created by the diffuser is really awesome. By the time it exits the pump the bubbles are so small its literally a fog of co2. 

Either of those pumps would work just fine.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

zoomzoom said:


> I have the Octopus OTP-1000 needle wheel pump with the grey threaded input... can anyone tell me what other plumbing parts I need to get to make a closed loop (not inline)? I'm new at this...
> 
> Here's an image of the pump:


 How did your pump work out for you?


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## odie

Not to raise an old thread back to life but.....I am getting a co2 setup from GLA/ Orlando and I have a sump and a canister. I would love to feed this into my pump in my sump. I am getting the same diffuser that Orlando shown. What do I need to feed the co2 into it? What modifications rock need to-do to the pump. I am using a mag 9.5 for my return that I am not running full open. Can I still use this as my main pump for my return?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

You could use a needle wheel impeller on that pump and feed the pump


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## odie

Interesting! You want toss me a figure on making me a proto-type? 
Jamie


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I would feed co2 into the pump, not after. Instead of the white PVC, you would use the inline diffuser, use some tubing and your set.


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## odie

Duh! I should've thought of that! Thanx for helping me along. Should I modify the impeller or buy a new one? I assume it reduces the flow having less fins.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Actually it wont reduce any noticeable amount. Should not matter much for you being that your pump is not pushing 100% according to your post above?


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## odie

Yup it should match up well with the flow. So with the diffuser I am getting from you would I need a needle wheel impeller? Or should I try to modify the impeller I have or purchase a new one?


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## johnnygstacks

I got a Catalina Aquariums 2300 aquapump/powerhead w needle wheel, this thing creates amazing micro bubbles. Dont laugh at the co2 generator if you watch this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uRcUCgXiY4


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## HD Blazingwolf

im gonna dig this old thread up since everything is either reactor or disk these days

has it been determined that the best method is closed loop through a needlewheel
OR having it run inline with another pump
if running inline how close do the flow rates need to match and is it better to run the needlewheel first or the main pump first
which one should get the co2 line run into it if its an inline setup?


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