# toumaline?



## 10487 (Jan 6, 2007)

reading the explanation of what it does confuses me. can anyone explain this quote, i know nothing of electrons etc. 
"Tourmaline can release 0.06mA bioelectricity in the water and electrolyze bigger molecule group of water into smaller or single one so as to activate water. Eradiate more than 90% FIR (far infrared ray), generate above 235p/s.cm3 negative ions to make water presented alkalescence (PH is 7～7.5), antibacterial and deodorizing, and release mineral microelements. 
After having put tourmaline sand, water of the aquarium for fishes is activated within 2-3hours. The water molecule group becomes smaller and amount of negative hydroxide ions is increased. Water quality is clear and doesn’t generate lichens"

and my ph is 8+, out of my tap. is it saying it will change mine to 7-7.5, or that i need to have it there first?


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Ignore the hype and move on to real life. 

When any "new" product turns up in only commerce sites, odds it's too good to be true. 
When one exact string of words turns up on all those same commerce sites it's a product coming out of China and the wholesalers are trying to build interest. 

Tourmaline is mined in every country in world. It is a semi-precious gemstone. That someone is trying to drum up interest in the cutting and polishing scrap tell me there will be a lot of tourmaline jewelery for sale on the TV shopping shows and eBay, soon if not now.


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## 10487 (Jan 6, 2007)

well it is pyroelectric and is used in industry, just not sure what that has to do with my fish tank. even the jewelry channel talks about it pyroelectric value 


INTRODUCTION Tourmalines are naturally occurring minerals with the general formulaXY3Z6 (B03)3Si6018 (O,OH,F)4'where usuallyX= Na, Ca, ora vacancy, Y=AI, Li, Fe2+, FeH, and many other cations, and Z= AI, Mg, and FeH. It has been known for centuries (Dietrich, 1985) that tourmaline crystals are pyroelectric materials that develop an electrostatic charge when heated or cooled. Careful mea- surementsofthe combined primary and secondary pyroelectric effects in these minerals were first reported by Ackermann (1915). The results of that work showed that tourmaline exhibits pyroelectricity over awidetemper- aturerange. Tourmaline is stable to high temperatures and may find application as an infrared detector where ferroelectric materials such as LaTi03 fail (Hamid, 1980). Importantly, Ackermann's (1915) measurements show that differently colored tourmalines exhibit different degrees of pyroelectricity. For example, black varieties are the weakest whereas rose colored tourmalines are the most strongly pyroelectric. Subsequent investigations support these observations and show that tourmaline pyroelectric coefficients (P'3) range between-1.8 and 5.4~C/(m2. K) at 296K (Hayashi, 1912; Rontgen, 1914; Ackermann, 1915; Gladkiiand Zheludev, 1965; Gavrilova, 1965; Fa- bel and Henish, 1971; DrozhdinetaI., 1975; Gavrilova et al. 1989; the present work). Related studies have shown that piezoelectricity, the inducement of an electric charge by an applied stress, is also stronger in translucent col- oredtourmalines than in certain opaque black varieties (Cady, 1946). None of these previous studies has addressed the vari- ationinthe pyroelectric coefficients with either the pre- cisechemical composition or crystal chemistry of differ- entlycolored tourmalines. Tourmaline crystal chemistry is complex because the size and anion coordination of theX, Y, and Zcationsitesare different. As a result many different cations can be accommodated in tour~ maline by coupled isomorphous substitution (e.g., Henry andGuidotti, 1985; FoitetaI., 1989; Burt, 1989). An indication of this complexity is given by the summary of natural and synthetic tourmaline end-members as well as by the references to their structural descriptions in Table 1" (Centre for Microscopy and Microanalysis, University of Queensland, Brisbane, Queensland 4072, Australia)


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I have never seen anyone who is up to date on aquariums recommending tourmaline as a component of a substrate, unless you just like the appearance of it. When I see recommendations for it, they are from people trying to sell it.


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## SHIKARI (Sep 11, 2010)

Bullseye HOPPY,unless it is from someone I know and am famaliar with them.
I ADMIT I love to save money I used topsoil to save money on my 75g and its been interesting,I have low lights and palnts that are supposed tio die are doing great and plants that should be thriving are dying, so what do we dO?, 
yOUR INPUT IS WELCOME, Cheers


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## SHIKARI (Sep 11, 2010)

my tank is setup with miraclegrow organig topsoil topped with blackdiamond and all plants are thriving


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

This is all pseudo-scientific hype and has no basis in reality. I'd like you to do me a favor: Google "pentawater +randi". Don't worry, it's not an evil trick that pulls up something horrible, but it pulls up something very good.

You'll find a number of articles about, by or referencing James the Amazing Randi, founder, namesake and driving force behind the James Randi Educational Foundation. Pentawater, like so much other snake oil, relies on conflating a lot of scientific study with plain old balderdash. Randi is mean old coot who wants none of it. Reading the pentawater claims and hype should look familiar, like the tourmaline claims. Rex Grigg had an interesting essay on another woo woo aquarium device that is also worth reading. You can find it here: http://www.rexgrigg.com/debunked.htm. Again, he outline's the anatomy of another quacky scam and again the ad copy looks familiar.

By the way, I know what product you're reading that off the back of or the marketing material for and it is is rather heartbreaking. It does do what it is intended to do, which is to lay down extra micronutrients and seed the substrate with soil bacteria, but the extra price for a semiprecious gemstone's perceived magical abilities really makes it a turn off. The same outfit makes a really cool canister filter that costs a boat load mostly because it incorporates a magical magnet from Germany that similarly affects the water molecules' structure and conditions it. Pure poppycock but again, depressing because of who makes it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ooooo, but ADA sells it, it must be good!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Ooooo, but ADA sells it, it must be good!
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, you're killing me. Please don't make me put the flame retardant underwear back on, it's itchy and I'm really trying to make friends and contacts here and I don't think I have it in me to get involved in this again even if I'm not being that incendiary like last time. 

If they come back again, I'm hiding behind you :flick:.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I'm sorry, but does ADA have a history of selling useless items? I think they have no reason to mislead anyone with snake oil... You really think they're that desperate for money? I've never been unsatisfied with an ADA product, have you?

ADA makes no reference to tourmaline as an electrowhatchamacallit, and as far as the critics are concerned, who was the first person to say "hey, I bet our plants would like some iron"?

Here's some real information:

It's a complex silicate, containing a plethora of minerals. Including calcium, sodium, potassium, lithium, magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, aluminum, chromium, etc etc etc.

Could this 'gem', also perhaps have some ACTUAL FUNCTIONAL use? I've got to say... most likely! As far as it being electroactive, it probably is, it contains the same minerals that a lithium battery and in some cases alkaline battery. Does the electrical aspect of the gem have any awesome plant growing powers? nah, but it seems to be packed with micro nutrients.

Come on guys, why so critical? I mean, I haven't ever used it, but I've looked into using it! I'm assuming none of you have used it either. Just because you didn't think to use it first, doesn't mean it might not have a use. Whatever happened to keeping an open mind?


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## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

I don't know if it has any purpose or not, but if there is a purpose it definitely is not listed in the quote from the original post.

Parts of the description don't make any sense, and the parts that do are impossible. There's probably more than .o6mA of electricity being introduced into the water by the flourescent lighting and pump impellers anyway.

Iron etc. bound up into a complex structure forming a gemstone isn't likely to be useable by aquatic plants. There are minerals like these in the glass that the aquarium is made of.

This is the type of language you see in an advertizement for healing metal bracelets, or energy crystal pendants.


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> I'm sorry, but does ADA have a history of selling useless items? I think they have no reason to mislead anyone with snake oil... You really think they're that desperate for money?


Occasionally,yes. They are a business and money is any businesses' life blood but they are not malicious. I have no doubt that they honestly believe in what they are saying on that old piece of ad copy.





mordalphus said:


> I've never been unsatisfied with an ADA product, have you?


That is neither here nor there. 



mordalphus said:


> ADA makes no reference to tourmaline as an electrowhatchamacallit, and as far as the critics are concerned, who was the first person to say "hey, I bet our plants would like some iron"?


You're confusing two separate issues for some purpose I cannot divine. They have made a claim on an older ad about the magical properties of tourmaline. This has been since rescinded in newer marketing materials, but in the US we still have access to old packaging that makes this claim.

Iron as a micronutrient has been scientifically established for some time. Again, this is neither here nor there as it pertains to evaluating the claims about ground up tourmaline.



mordalphus said:


> Here's some real information:
> 
> It's a complex silicate, containing a plethora of minerals. Including calcium, sodium, potassium, lithium, magnesium, iron, manganese, zinc, aluminum, chromium, etc etc etc.
> 
> Could this 'gem', also perhaps have some ACTUAL FUNCTIONAL use? I've got to say... most likely! As far as it being electroactive, it probably is, it contains the same minerals that a lithium battery and in some cases alkaline battery. Does the electrical aspect of the gem have any awesome plant growing powers? nah, but it seems to be packed with micro nutrients.


Yes, as a decorative stone and that's it, really. Your analysis of the chemical composition of tourmaline is correct but provides us nothing. The only assumption I can make is that somehow you are under the impression that these elements will magically leave the gem and do something beneficial to its surroundings. This is not possible for a number of reasons, the main being that all the atoms are bound rather tightly together with their valence shells being fully satisifed by the covalent bonds prevalent in the vast majority of gemstones. Again, I can only presume this is what you meant. Batteries work on very different principles using different compounds to generate current that are well understood by most, please see this article for a better understanding of the electrochemistry of a battery.



mordalphus said:


> Come on guys, why so critical?


...Because you should be. Consider googling the terms "critical thought" and "pyrrhonian skepticism" These are very helpful tools for cutting through these kinds of things.



mordalphus said:


> I mean, I haven't ever used it, but I've looked into using it! I'm assuming none of you have used it either.


Remember what they say about assumptions? I have used it and it does what it says, minus the perceived magical properties of the ground up semi-precious gemstone tourmaline which according to the laws of physics cannot affect water in said manner as per the pseudoscientific claims quoted in the parent post. Outside of that, it's great for introducing extra micronutrients under your Power Sand and introducing soil bacteria as many of us already know.



mordalphus said:


> Just because you didn't think to use it first, doesn't mean it might not have a use.


I really have no idea where you mistakenly picked up on this. It almost comes off as both petulant and condescending.



mordalphus said:


> Whatever happened to keeping an open mind?


I have a very open mind, not just so open that it falls out. It is New Age cranks, quacksalvers, conspiracy theorists and fanboys that tend to be closed minded and do not want to critically examine the statements of a claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. A product that claims to alter the basic physical nature of water would be considered extraordinary and if found to be true, testable and reproducible would shake physics and chemistry to their very core as we understand those two sciences today. But it hasn't and it won't because it is not true, not testable, not falsifiable nor reproducible.

I hope my response is as educational for you as it was cathartic for me.


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## mylittlefish (Oct 5, 2010)

I sense ....... non of you really knows ..... really....... Admit it.


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## ukamikazu (Jun 4, 2010)

mylittlefish said:


> I sense ....... non of you really knows ..... really....... Admit it.


You made me :wink:! I was just kidding about all that stuff! 

Now, if you'll excuse me I need my coffee enema this morning then I'll need to see my guru to get my chakras realigned and later today a feng shui specialist is coming over to redo the living room and I need to get a refill on my colloidal silver because you can't trust the medical establishment and looking like a smurf from years of dosing the stuff is sexy this year roud:.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

...


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

bah! it never pays to be devils advocate


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## mylittlefish (Oct 5, 2010)

ukamikazu said:


> You made me :wink:! I was just kidding about all that stuff!
> 
> Now, if you'll excuse me I need my coffee enema this morning then I'll need to see my guru to get my chakras realigned and later today a feng shui specialist is coming over to redo the living room and I need to get a refill on my colloidal silver because you can't trust the medical establishment and looking like a smurf from years of dosing the stuff is sexy this year roud:.


TWO more Urban Legends...
the need for water changes
the need for quarantining :iamwithst


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

mylittlefish said:


> TWO more Urban Legends...
> the need for water changes
> the need for quarantining :iamwithst


Actually there are good reasons to do water changes, for some situations, and good reasons not to do water changes for other situations. Quarantining new fish is a very good idea, when you are adding a few fish to a tank with many fish, especially fish that are valuable to you. But, if you just have a few feeder guppies in the tank, and are adding a school of rummy nose tetras, for example, I see no good reason to quarantine the tetras.

But, I don't see much of any reason to quarantine plants.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

mylittlefish said:


> TWO more Urban Legends...
> the need for water changes
> the need for quarantining :iamwithst


The third urban legend...

Crack Kills.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I bought 250 grams of tourmaline at a gem show. Crushed it into sand, laid it down on the bottom of my tank. I wasn't going to buy the Ada tourmaline bc which is tourmaline dust and powdered carbon.

I paid $30 but when crushed it was shiny inside, shards of crystals of blue and green!

Bought 250 grams of the Ada stuff for about $18. Did the same. It was just black... No crystals. Much lower quality... But I paid much less than what I got at a gem show. 

If anyone would like to see the Californian tourmaline I crushed and look at the pretty crystals, here it is along with a pic of what Ada sells for you filter. The Californian stuff I bought Looked the same before it was crushed. When I crushed the Ada stuff, there were NO crystals inside. Much lower quality in my opinion.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...justlikeapills-detailed-ada-60-p-journal.html



This rough tourmaline is called Schorl. You can buy like three pounds of it on ebay for like $20! It's like tourmaline ore and not gem quality tourmaline.... But the same if not better as the schorl that ADA sells,

Do I KNOW it does anything? Nope. Do I think it does anything? I do... I buy into the whole ionization stuff. There is tourmaline in my hair brush, too.

Do I think I need a pound of crushed tourmaline sand in my ADA aquasoil? Absolutely not. Its in there just in case there are any benefits at all. 

I call total BS on it being used to slowly supply lithium and boron or whatever Tourmaline is made of. Schorl is a rock. The minerals aren't bioavailable. Tourmaline has electrical properties, and as a geek I think that's cool, but it more than likely doesn't do anything for the aquarium or my hairbrush for that matter.

But it's there just in case, and thats why I choose to spend money on things like that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ukamikazu said:


> Tom, you're killing me. Please don't make me put the flame retardant underwear back on, it's itchy and I'm really trying to make friends and contacts here and I don't think I have it in me to get involved in this again even if I'm not being that incendiary like last time.
> 
> If they come back again, I'm hiding behind you :flick:.


"Tough acting" Tenactin works for jock itch too.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ClintonSParsons said:


> I bought 250 grams of tourmaline at a gem show. Crushed it into sand, laid it down on the bottom of my tank. I wasn't going to buy the Ada tourmaline bc which is tourmaline dust and powdered carbon.
> 
> I paid $30 but when crushed it was shiny inside, shards of crystals of blue and green!
> 
> ...


Oh, you are a Penac fan also?
"Biodynamic" farming.

We gots plenty of them in the wine growers out here these days.
Good example of going too far one direction.

Organic, local, small farmers, I can buy into that.
Fruity stuff, nope. It incurs my full wrath.

But this is true for most things, not just aquariums.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

Wow I feel smarter from just reading this thread. It's has quite a bit of large words that I don't understand. I think it's crap myself but I'll leave the door open in case I'm wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Tom, actually I am looking into Penac-W. Why? Because it doesn't hurt anything, and because it costs $0.14 per gram, and because a bottle will last me two years. At $0.14 per gram and a life span of two years on my sized tank, I don't care if you think it's bogus. If it has subtle effects, then yeah I can afford it at that price. I know Amano endorses the Plocher energy system, and I don't believe he would attach his name/his company's name to something he did not believe in. Even if it is mere Bentonite, I am paying for great quality Bentonite and I'll feel good about adding it.

As for Penac-P, I'm not going to buy a 200 gram bottle when I only need six grams and it's only good to lay down once and is not meant to be dosed after that. I wont pay for 200 grams when I need six. If anyone would like to sell me six grams, let me know. 

If I could find Penac-A, those little stick things, I'd buy some of them, too. Can't find them in America.

Basically, Tom, at the end of the day I'm paying for peace of mind. It's worth a lot to me, and that's what I'm paying for.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ClintonSParsons said:


> Tom, actually I am looking into Penac-W. Why? Because it doesn't hurt anything, and because it costs $0.14 per gram, and because a bottle will last me two years.
> Basically, Tom, at the end of the day I'm paying for peace of mind. It's worth a lot to me, and that's what I'm paying for.


Yes, so would a good book.

Does not hurt anything in the tank either ....since this is argument for your ruler/metric for scrutiny. This is the *best* support for the argument you can come up with?? So you wanna go with...........superstition?

These are the very same arguments used to sell diet pills that do not work, Water ionizers, and every snake oil I've seen in this hobby the last 30 some odd years. Show me they work as stated, not your superstition.

Cost? Does not matter if it has no effect to begin with.

Mark Twain stated that marketing was nothing more than crooks trying to get people to spend money on stuff they do not need... with money they do not have. Come to think of it, a good book might help actually more.
I'll hang on to my $ for things a lot more tangible. If nothing else, for the principle alone.

As far as water ionization, quackery about tourmaline...

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/wonkywater.html

So what else you got for the debate?
Anything good or more of the same??



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

The difference between you and I is that I don't really care for a vehement debate. I'm just not that passionate. I'd rather spend my thirty bucks and be happy, I guess. As a bio major with an interest in Botany (want to go into the field) I'd still buy and use tourmaline and penac, just in case. As a PROFESSIONAL, I'd never use or recommend tourmaline or Penac if I was being paid to advise someone. As a HOBBYIST, I am happy to use them because no ones money is at stake but my own. Take that as you will. 

Superstition? Absolutely. Personally I believe in chi, other spiritual things, etc. 

If you don't, that's totally cool and I respect that, too. Not everything has to be a hardcore debate, tom. It's all cool. I will throw away my money and be happy, you can save your money and say I should not be happy and I threw away my money. 

At the end of the day, I spent next to nothing on something that probably doesn't do anything of testable benefit, but I'm happy and content, and you have $30 more than I did. 

Clint


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

The only supernatural thing tom barr believes in, is TOM BARR!!! 

For christs sake, clinton, he's a DOCTOR!!!

lol, but really... Who cares, if something gives you peace of mind, do it! If you are concerned that you're spending money on ONLY peace of mind, then work that problem out with toms help.

In the meantime, if you wish, I'll write penac on a 6 gram bag of montmorillonite and send it to you!


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

No no no, see, it has to have the hologram imprinted on it or else I am not interested. How else are plants supposed to know what they are supposed to act like for optimal health number one good luck time?


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## lastostyle (Jan 5, 2004)

ClintonSParsons said:


> No no no, see, it has to have the hologram imprinted on it or else I am not interested. How else are plants supposed to know what they are supposed to act like for optimal health number one good luck time?


An ADA Hologram i assume :hihi: /just read your tank journal. 

I see where you're coming from. More of an "act of good faith" than a scientifically proven fact. Same concept as hanging a cross over your door or arranging your furniture to ensure proper "energy flow".


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## tharsis (Oct 9, 2009)

I found a rock that keeps bears away, I can sell it for $10...it should bring great peace of mind to you.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I just think this type of marketing should be very actively discouraged and we should extremely critical of it in the hobby.

It does not help anyone or teach anyone much.
Hence does not support and help the hobby evolve.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Bunbuku (Sep 19, 2010)

On tangential note. What is the charocal under the substrate supposed to do? It does not seem to be a unique to ADA tourmaline BC. 

When I was looking into setting up a terrarium a lot of the instructions called for putting a layer of activated charcoal at the bottom before adding the "real" substrate.


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

I think its food for the bacteria to get started with, and fresh aquasoil has a lot of crap in it.... When I bought mine lots of protein film came up and out of the water so I guess it helpsnto absorb that, too. After that it's just more surface area for bacteria to grow on, because charcoal/carbon is only good for a limited amount of time. Also absorbs tannins,

That's why I did not buy tourmaline BC. I just added 100 mls of matrix carbon (spherical so it blends in with the aquasoil if it gets mixed up ever) and crushed my own tourmaline into sand and added it. I did not like the fact they they don't tell you what ratio tourmaline bc has of carbon to tourmaline in the 100 gram bottles they sell, so I know exactly what I put in my system.

For a terrarium it serves as a drainage layer I guess, and in the olden days they probably thought it was good to keep the media fresh but carbon only lasts a month at best (I think seachem matrix claims six months?) but having set up terrariums before (more like vivariums minus the plants) you should Make a false bottom so you can water as much as you want and drain it out when you want and nothing becomes foul.

Charcoal is a good soil additive to any terrestrial soil mix really, since it's light and airy and adds some chunkiness. I add horticultural grade charcoal to my orchid and carnivorous plant mixes. It absorbs trace elements for a while then just becomes chunky soil additive. Pumice is good, too. Pea gravel would work if you don't want to use charcoal but a false bottom is the best. 

On a side note, I just ordered a half pound of tourmaline on eBay for THREE bucks! If you want to use it, go to eBay and type in schorl! You can get like four pounds of the stuff for what it costs for 250 grams of the Ada stuff, but you won't get the pretty box or green filter pouch it comes in.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Looking around the other sites rootmedic in particular I came across the additive tourmaline. Further research led me to this thread 
Excusing all of the hype has there been any benefit found to the use of this product since the ending of the thread ?


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

There isn't any documented or testable benefit to be found. 
There never has been.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You could search the solubility for the various types of tourmaline, but that did not yield much for the searches I tried some years ago.

You could always toss a piece in a glass of water and seal it and see how long it take dissolve. Or measure the Boron content a month or two later etc.

My take on this stuff and like it........put up or shut up. This is not rude in the least, asking me to suspend common sense quite frankly, is rude.
The burden of proof is upon the one selling and making the claims, not the skeptics. If they cannot placate those folks without getting personal, lawsuits whatever.......then they do not have any evidence that suggest it works.

If "non limiting PO4 causes algae".........then adding it should induce algae, if not.......well.........I've satisfied the falsification of the claim, even without selling PO4.
There is not even any indirect evidence that it works, (like the Boron jar test I suggested above, which is frankly easy to do). Put up or shut up.


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