# What on earth am I doing wrong with this tank?



## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

I've been working for years to have a decent planted tank without CO2 and it's just not working. Pretty much my only plants that survive are anubias and my melon sword. My Amazon Sword leaves are clear and thin, my Java ferns have tiny one inch leaves that are rather deformed and very slow growing. I once tried anacharis but it got really thin and algae-covered. Not only can I not get the plants to grow, I have problems with both regular algae and BGA. The BGA is a real problem. My nitrates are low (5-10 ppm) and I've held back on all phosphorous. I've tried lots of ferts, no ferts, high ligh, low light, and nothing seems to work. The ferts I use are Flourish tabs, regular Flourish, Flourish potassium, and liquid CO2. Any advice?
Pics Below: I intentionally didn't scrub the BGA for a few days.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

If we can get a little more info. What size tank? What type of light? Is your substrate straight gravel? How often are you doing certs and glut? How often and how much waster do you change? Do you have hard or soft water? Can you show a shot of the entire aquarium?


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Can you please list all the fertilizers you have? If we have a better idea as to what you have tried we might be able to see what you missed.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

I included ferts in my post. I had NPK going for a while (potassium and phosphorus supplement, nitrogen from the fish) but with all the algae issues I cut the phoshporus.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

bigbadjon said:


> If we can get a little more info. What size tank? What type of light? Is your substrate straight gravel? How often are you doing certs and glut? How often and how much waster do you change? Do you have hard or soft water? Can you show a shot of the entire aquarium?


This is a 36 Gal. I have a Marineland Advanced LED (not the plant one) and an LED strip off Amazon. The Marineland is a warmer color light and The other strip is a cooler color light. I heard that warm light can contribute to BGA so I turned that off last week. Substrate is straight gravel with root tabs. Ideally I'd like to transition to flourite but given that I'm heading off to college in a year and I gotta gift away the tank I'm not gonna invest that much. Also, substrate wouldn't help the plants on the driftwood. I do a 25% water change every weekend. I know that sounds excessive, but I need to scrub and vacuum all the BGA to keep the tank alive. If I ever skip a weekend vacuum it's a total disaster. I don't have test stuff for water hardness (though that would probably help) but our city water isn't very hard. I didn't attach the full shot originally because it was too high res but I've scaled it down here:








The plants on the left are fake ones I put in there for fish shelter.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> I included ferts in my post. I had NPK going for a while (potassium and phosphorus supplement, nitrogen from the fish) but with all the algae issues I cut the phoshporus.


I am not worried about NPK. Those are in 99% of all fertilizers on the market. but there are 12 others that are critical for plant growth. And based on your pictures you are deficient in something. But as of right now it looks like you might be deficient in calcium and magnesium.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Surf said:


> I am not worried about NPK. Those are in 99% of all fertilizers on the market. but there are 12 others that are critical for plant growth. And based on your pictures you are deficient in something. But as of right now it looks like you might be deficient in calcium and magnesium.


Of all things why would he be deficient in Ca and Mg. He's dosing Seachem flourish and tabs which both contain those, plus whatever he gets from the tap. That's the last thing he would have to worry about. You need more N&P in addition to the K (Potassium) your getting. the N and P are critical. I would also increase water changes to 50% weekly and add those to your dosing.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

On low tech I would do at least a 50% water change and only dose ferts after the water change. I would also dose the glut product you are using everyday. Things happen slow in low tech so stick with the regiment and don't be discouraged if it takes a couple of months to see a difference.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Surf said:


> I am not worried about NPK. Those are in 99% of all fertilizers on the market. but there are 12 others that are critical for plant growth. And based on your pictures you are deficient in something. But as of right now it looks like you might be deficient in calcium and magnesium.



Why not worry about NPK? He's not dosing it properly. The N level is low. He's dosing macro supplements, no N to speak of, no P and some level of K. I would work on establishing the proper levels of the basic nutrients first and then go after the other stuff.

To the OP, as Bigbadjohn said, "things happen slow". There's a lot of good info in your post but no details. I would suggest picking a level of light to use (medium seems a good choice) and stick with it awhile. Get some comprehensive fertilizers so you can cover the NPK and the trace stuff that you need and start a regular low to medium dosing level. Once you get an established routine then you can get advice here on what tweaks to make. 
I would use EI but that doesn't suit some. You have a pretty low tech plant selection right now. Maybe look at a 1 shot all in one fert like member Nicolg sells. I have no experience with it but have ready nothing but good comments on here.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

Kubla said:


> Why not worry about NPK? He's not dosing it properly. The N level is low. He's dosing macro supplements, no N to speak of, no P and some level of K. I would work on establishing the proper levels of the basic nutrients first and then go after the other stuff.
> 
> To the OP, as Bigbadjohn said, "things happen slow". There's a lot of good info in your post but no details. I would suggest picking a level of light to use (medium seems a good choice) and stick with it awhile. Get some comprehensive fertilizers so you can cover the NPK and the trace stuff that you need and start a regular low to medium dosing level. Once you get an established routine then you can get advice here on what tweaks to make.
> I would use EI but that doesn't suit some. You have a pretty low tech plant selection right now. Maybe look at a 1 shot all in one fert like member Nicolg sells. I have no experience with it but have ready nothing but good comments on here.


What should my goal N be? Also, how can I raise the P without starting a BGA farm??


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

N can prohibit BGA
P can prohibit GDA

Standard ratios are 10:1::N


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Sorry i missed the line stating flourish. 



> Of all things why would he be deficient in Ca and Mg. He's dosing Seachem flourish and tabs which both contain those, plus whatever he gets from the tap.


Flourish comprehensive is deficient in nitrogen, magnesium, sulfur and chlorine. Calcium and phosphate are at minimal levels. Yes it does have these but not a lot. If you add NPK you accelerate plant growth which could quickly consume all the calcium and magnesium in the fertilizer. Yes your tap water may have some of these may not be enough to satisfy the needs of the plants. I used Flourish comprehensive in the past and with it had deficiencies in nitrogen, then magnesium and sulfur, and the chlorine. In my experience you can compensate for these as they occur but it is not easy as they don't always happen at the same time. I personally have my nitrate at 5-10ppm without CO2 and it works fine and I don't have any deficiency symptoms for nitrogen. I keep my P at 1ppm and my GH is 2 to 3 using my homemade GH booster (similar to sachem equilibrium) which satisfies Ca, Mg, S, and CL needs. I now also use CSM+B for the traces. 

IN his 3rd photo one of leaves has a tip that is curved down indicating a possible calcium deficiency. the wavy edges of the leaves is also an indication of a possible magnesium deficiency. Yellowing can be a result of these deficiencies or sulfur or something else. Once all these problems are correct it can take weeks for the plants to recover and start growing again. 

Note we don't know exactly what cause algae. But Tom Barr has conclusively shown that Phosphate doesn't cause algae. Also no one to my knowledge has claimed Ca, Mg, or S as the case. All nutrients will feed algae when it can grow but we don't know what is the key cause for it or why some people always have problems with it while others never seem to. Reducing phosphate will not help your plants and may not resolve the algae issue.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

On my low tech 55 gal I only use 18 watts of led lighting. I would certainly recommend low light for low tech. I did not give any further info because I did not believe it was necessary. A low tech tank without stem plants uses so few nutrients and grows slowly so as long as you dose at every water change a deficiency should never happen. Dosing the glut everyday will curb algae should there be excess nutrients and boost plant growth at the same time. I think where most people fail at this is that they feel if plants are doing poorly it must be a deficiency when it is more likely an excess. There are so few plants in that tank water column dosing may be completely unnecessary even.


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## atyshka (Jan 11, 2017)

bigbadjon said:


> On my low tech 55 gal I only use 18 watts of led lighting. I would certainly recommend low light for low tech. I did not give any further info because I did not believe it was necessary. A low tech tank without stem plants uses so few nutrients and grows slowly so as long as you dose at every water change a deficiency should never happen. Dosing the glut everyday will curb algae should there be excess nutrients and boost plant growth at the same time. I think where most people fail at this is that they feel if plants are doing poorly it must be a deficiency when it is more likely an excess. There are so few plants in that tank water column dosing may be completely unnecessary even.


So I guess I'm looking specifically for more advice on the java's and amazon sword. I've been trying to grow Java's for years with and without ferts and they always end up small, very slow-growing, and wrinkly. I have never had a leaf grow to more than 2 inches. Rhizomes aren't nice and green, they're pretty brown and woody. Also, when I first got the amazon swords all of their wonderful stem-like leaves fell of and these clearish, triangle leaves came in. What could that be?

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> N can prohibit BGA
> P can prohibit GDA
> 
> Standard ratios are 10:1::N


For increased nitrogen, would I be better off increasing the bioload or actually supplementing nitrogen? I have two full grown Angels and a few smaller fish in a 36 gallon. I'd think that would be enough nitrogen. I am very conservative with feeding though.

Bump:


bigbadjon said:


> On my low tech 55 gal I only use 18 watts of led lighting. I would certainly recommend low light for low tech. I did not give any further info because I did not believe it was necessary. A low tech tank without stem plants uses so few nutrients and grows slowly so as long as you dose at every water change a deficiency should never happen. Dosing the glut everyday will curb algae should there be excess nutrients and boost plant growth at the same time. I think where most people fail at this is that they feel if plants are doing poorly it must be a deficiency when it is more likely an excess. There are so few plants in that tank water column dosing may be completely unnecessary even.


Also, I'm clueless as to how much lighting is enough for a no-co2 tank. I use LEDs and there is no good way to measure that like with fluorescent bulbs. I could have way too much or too little light.


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

If you have visible light at the bottom of the tank you have enough for these plants. You won't be able to help these plants specifically. You will need to get a working regimen for the tank and everything will start yo improve.


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