# SMS/Turface vs expensive plant substrate + other questions



## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

bump


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

Smaller particles tend to migrate to the bottom of the substrate over time. So whatever you put on the bottom (Turface, Flourite, Eco) will eventually be on top and the black sand on the bottom. I've used Turface in a high tech tank with no problems, any root feeders will certainly need root tabs. Laterite is IMO better to mix in the substrate or place it on the bottom before adding substrate.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Turface is a great substrate on a budget. It plants well, the diameter of the grain is nice and it is not bad looking, either. Just like all substrates, there are benefits and tradeoffs.

I have the all sport pro league in two tanks. It is a smaller size granule version of the regular turface according to the vendor I called. I have the one that is the tan color, which is very nice in my opinion. I wouldn't buy the sand, it will eventually end up on the bottom like mine did. Turface does mess with your water parameters at first, so it is important to know the Kh can drop which can lead to pH crashes. I remedied this by adding baking soda temporarily.

I added flourite to an already established tank and had no problems doing this. I added a baggie full at a time. However, if you disturb too much of your gravel at a time you could end up with untraceable ammonia spikes, so add the laterite slowly. Take a few days/weeks if necessary. 

Yes, laterite is basically an iron source.

If you didn't know this already, I will forewarn you. Turface is very lightweight and will be easily disturbed, so I recommend capping with a generous layer of gravel slightly bigger in diameter than the turface.

As far as eco-complete and flourite go, they are the same as far as being an excellent substrate for plants. The eco-complete comes packaged in a liquid with nutrients and flourite does not. Flourite looks more like gravel to me, and eco is more rounded. This may be an overstatement on my part, but I believe the purchase of one over another is price, availability and preference. Both will grow plants well.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

Do you mean you added laterite to an established tank? I'm using eco-complete in my planted 29, it's just too expensive to use in a large tank.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

No, I added flourite. But you could do the same with the laterite. Just do it slowly. I created a small hole, put in the flourite and then mixed it together with a gravel vacuum. The same should apply for laterite.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

Is laterite more like dust, or sand/gravel? I am tempted to just move all the fish out temporarily and use soil substrate.



sewingalot said:


> Turface is a great substrate on a budget. It plants well, the diameter of the grain is nice and it is not bad looking, either. Just like all substrates, there are benefits and tradeoffs.
> 
> I have the all sport pro league in two tanks. It is a smaller size granule version of the regular turface according to the vendor I called. I have the one that is the tan color, which is very nice in my opinion. I wouldn't buy the sand, it will eventually end up on the bottom like mine did. Turface does mess with your water parameters at first, so it is important to know the Kh can drop which can lead to pH crashes. I remedied this by adding baking soda temporarily.
> 
> ...


Is there much of a difference between the various types of turface? You mentioned size, but do you think it matters which one I go with?

I've also looked at a product sold by a local water garden/pond store which is basically aquatic planting soil. It was reccomended by a fellow hobbyist. If I do decide to empty the tank out to add substrate, I will probably try this stuff, and maybe mix in a bag of turface. That might make capping it with sand work better too, because the dirt/soil would fill all the gaps between the turface granules.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

FSM said:


> Is laterite more like dust, or sand/gravel? I am tempted to just move all the fish out temporarily and use soil substrate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Different sources of laterite means different textures. It is usually similar to smaller pieces of gravel. Here is a link that will tell you more than you need to ever know. http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/laterama.html

There is not much difference in Turface except size and color. 

The planting soil is probably called Schultz Aquasoil. I have heard of it, but never used it. Here is a link on it. http://www.petfish.net/forum/index.php?topic=65126.0


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

It isn't SAS. It actually is soil; it looks like dirt.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Turface, SMS, and Flourite are baked clay products, with high cation exchange capacity (CEC), so they can capture and hold cations like potassium and iron in a way that makes them easier for plant roots to grab. That is why they offer an advantage over pool filter sand (unless you buy zeolite pool filter sand). I don't know how big an advantage the high CEC actually gives us, but theoretically it is a big advantage.

I think I recall that Tom Barr did some testing that indicated the high CEC advantage is real, using SMS. As I recall, it was responsible for greater plant mass increase per unit time than he got with substrates without high CEC.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

what makes a substrate good for plants is its ability to bind with nutrients (cation). The plants can use these nutrients when they need it. The baked clay (sas, sms, flourite, turface) soils has great cation. They are basically inert but over time will bind with nutrients. The clay they're made out of do have trace minerals in it. You can help this process by putting micro & macro nutrients in the soil (root tabs, soil etc).

Eco- I think has all the nutrients in it already. Laterite is a iron rich baked clay and it's used as a supplement in any substrate. I don't think it's all that necessary.


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## MemphisBob (May 2, 2007)

Understanding Eco-complete is pretty easy really. It's crushed lava rock that they (Carib-Sea) let sit in the moist and humid central Florida plant and age. Aging it and keeping it damp/moist help kickstart the cation a bit. Other than that it's not really any better than a fired clay.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

If SMS is anything like Schultz Aquatic Soil or one in the same as many claim, I would not use it on its own. IME it is way too light to anchor plant roots permanently and plant roots will dislodge and the stems will uproot as the roots grow longer, no matter how deep the layer. At least that is my experience. I suggest using a 1-1/2 " layer of pool filter sand or mineralized toposoil and then capping with 11/2-2" SMS or SAS. I have seen similar results obtained using Schultz Aquatic Soil as ADA Aquasoil, with one big difference. With ADA Aquasoil, results are quick. With Schultz Aquatic Soil, I had comparable results almost 2 years after the tank was setup.  With my ADA Aqusoil tanks, 4-6 weeks was the max before I saw impressive algae free growth. If you are patient, SAS and SMS is great. If you want quick results, nothing compares to ADA AS in my experience.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm mildly impatient but mostly cheap.

I think I may buy a bag of the aquatic soil stuff (dirt) and mix it with some turface and sand. Then I'll use that as the bottom layer, and cap it with more sand. I'll be adding root tabs as well.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

Is having a deep layer of soil substrate a bad idea?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If the topsoil is "mineralized", meaning it has any ammonia compounds converted to nitrates by the action of bacteria, it can be as thick as you want, but any soil based substrate can cloud up the water when you disturb it. So, capping it with something like pool filter sand or Flourite black sand is a good idea. There are many ways to use the various substrate materials, so I don't claim that what I suggest is the best way.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

I called a few places and it looks like I can get 3M colorquartz for about $20 for a 50 pound bag. 

I called another place about turface, the guy wanted to know what I needed it for, and then he said he couldn't sell it to me because it wasn't intended for use in aquariums.


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## sunfire99 (Apr 8, 2009)

A TPT member local to me has 50 lb bags of SMS charcoal. PM me if interested and I will put you in touch with him. I am giving it a try in a tank and if I like it I'll pick up another bag or 2 for my own use since it seems hard or impossible to get SMS at retail now.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

FSM said:


> It isn't SAS. It actually is soil; it looks like dirt.


let use know the name & brand when you get it..




FSM said:


> I called a few places and it looks like I can get 3M colorquartz for about $20 for a 50 pound bag.
> 
> I called another place about turface, the guy wanted to know what I needed it for, and then he said he couldn't sell it to me because it wasn't intended for use in aquariums.


huh... what do they care what you use it for.. Sounds like a bunch of %#$#%*& to me.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> .. Sounds like a bunch of %#$#%*& to me.



x 2!

It's not like this is a product that you need a permit or license to purchase.
Next time tell them you want it for some cactus terrariums.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

After I hung up I realized I should have just told him my fish liked to play baseball (the intended use of it is on baseball fields)


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## reddragon1977 (May 30, 2007)

im using the sms and i love it. be patient and it gets heavier. It needs to absorb the water. i didnt even rinse mine. Dirty as hell for 4 days and now crystal clear. Ill take a picture tonight of my most recent tank and post it tomorrow. Its only been going for 2 weeks and im very happy with it.


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## fauxjargon (Oct 23, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> Turface, SMS, and Flourite are baked clay products, with high cation exchange capacity (CEC), so they can capture and hold cations like potassium and iron in a way that makes them easier for plant roots to grab. That is why they offer an advantage over pool filter sand (unless you buy zeolite pool filter sand). I don't know how big an advantage the high CEC actually gives us, but theoretically it is a big advantage.
> 
> I think I recall that Tom Barr did some testing that indicated the high CEC advantage is real, using SMS. As I recall, it was responsible for greater plant mass increase per unit time than he got with substrates without high CEC.


I'm considering setting up a tank using Turface. Does this mean I should try soaking the Turface in a solution rich in iron, potassium, ect... for a while before rinsing it and using it? I'm thinking that soaking it in water with a massive dose of ferts would do it... followed by a rinse to prevent pollution of the tank water of course.


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## mattycakesclark (Jun 11, 2010)

With my Turface, I use Rootmedic Complete and do EI dosing, didn't pre-charge it. Not sure how long that would last anyways. I would save those liquid ferts for column dosing?


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## TheBohunk (Apr 11, 2004)

I use an enriched SMS substrate with SMS being the only granular part of the substrate. It holds anything perfectly fine. HC had a hard time re-rooting if it was uprooted, but I think you'd have that problem with most substrates.

I started the tank with about 1" of mineralized soil and peat on the bottom and sprinkled a layer of laterite over it, then about 3-4" of SMS. I have no complaints and would definitely use it again. Hard to beat the bang for the buck IMO.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm using SMS as well and didn't pretreat it with anything either. I don't even use root tabs just regular EI dosing and the tanks grow like wild.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

So what did you end up doing?


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