# 46 Bowfront, Goldfish Grazing Project



## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

This is a journal of my journey into the planted tank community. *It is full of mistakes* as I slowly stumble my way into understanding.

I recently purchased a Seaclear 46 gallon bowfront tank for my girlfriend as a fish tank. I decided to look into having plants in this tank, because it couldn't be difficult right? 

So to start off, here's a photo of the tank as it first arrived. I got the tank and stand from petco/petsmart, with some crazy 20% off coupons and free shipping. Was a stellar deal. 



















She arrived and is a beauty. Girlfriend loves it, and so does our cat Render. Something I didn't realize when getting the tank, was how small the holes in the top were. There is very limited space for accessing the interior of the tank. (More to come on this later!)

The tank comes with a light assembly, that hoses an 18 inch 20 watt bulb. At the time, I think this is great. There is even space for an expansion! I could double it to 40 watts! All with no reflectors! Awesome!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Colleen wanted goldfish in this particular tank, a mix of fancy styles. We settled on 6 goldfish. _(Don't freak out yet, still writing in journal!). At the time, I was unaware of the tank requirements for goldfish (roughly 20-30 gallons PER fish)._ 

So I decided to get an aquaclear 70, which was higher rated then the tank size, so it should be plenty of filtration! Got some rocks from an aquarium store that looked cool, and a piece of fake driftwood, gravel, and white (ug) pebbles from petco.










Luckily at this time I had started to catch up on my research. I learned a bit about cycling a tank, media types, and tank setup. So I got some seachem prime, and seachem stability and starting using them per directions. 

We then began adding goldfish in small increments. Our first two tank mates were two black moors.










I love black moors, they're the closest thing to hammerhead sharks you can buy .


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

We then added two orandas. At this point the tank undergoes a small bacterial bloom. The bloom lasts for about 24 hours, then subsides. Yay for seachem stability...probably saved the fish from my stupidity. (That and prime binding excess toxins).

I decide that this is probably a good time to add my first ever plant! I choose an amazon sword because it looks nice. We also add a slight blue gradient background to hide some of the equipment.



















Keep in mind at this time, I know nothing about ferts, Co2, or lighting. It's a plant right? It's got light, and fish poop provides the rest!

I soon find out this is not the case, as the poor sword lasts about a week (roughly the amount of nutrients stored in its roots) then dies.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

So when the plant dies, I try to figure out what might have caused it. (Keep in mind I've yet to test the water (ack). I get a thermometer to see what the tank temp is at. 64F...that should be good for plants right? I go online and start reading like mad, find out the tank is a bit too cold (even the goldfish like low to mid 70's better), and that I might need more light.










So I pickup a 200w fluval heater (it has its own built in thermometer) using a bunch of coupons and deals to get it below a certain price point, and double the amount of lighting in the tank to a wow producing 40 watts (with no reflectors). 

I slowly raise the temp 2 degree's a day, until it reaches 74F. The goldfish immediately become more active and seem extremely pleased.

After installing the lighting however, I notice almost no difference in light penetration from the tank...money basically down the drain.

_So for anyone with a seaclear tank...throw that crappy enclosure out the window...it's a massive waste of money._

I add two new swords, and two anacharis bundles, hoping that the changes in temp and lighting will help. I also move the cat stand back far enough so Render can't easily put his paws on the top of the tank. It works great. Now he can watch the fish, without actually disturbing them.

Right around this point, I find some articles on wpg and see I should be shooting for 2-3 wpg. I do some web searching, and find ahsupply AND THIS FORUM. WOOHOO!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

I order a 96 watt kit from ahsupply. It's amazing. The reflector is absurd. I get the whole kit put together in the enclosure, take the crappy lighting off the tank, and turn it on...it's like going from SD to HD. The entire tank lights up like someone placed the sun over top of it. Lighting reaches every corner of the tank, and it's BRIGHT!!










I'm ecstatic. The tank looks great, and the fellow at ahsupply was very helpful with answering my questions, and the kit was very complete with everything I could have hoped for.

But then something happens. Something I didn't expect. Within the week, the entire tank is packed full of algae.

I start reading this forum, find out about ferts and dosing, and excel. I absorb information as fast as I can. We also add a 5th goldfish (I know I know) a calico with a gorgeous tail.

The algae turns nasty. Black hair all over the swords. I get sad.

It's around this point that I found out that we should really have about 20 gallons per goldfish. We plan to expand to a larger tank in about a year or so, when the goldfish start getting much larger. The 46 gallon will become a tropical tank at that point, and is designated the "learning tank."

I order a 2 liter bottle of excel from dr foster, with coupons that net me another good deal...roughly enough excel for 1.5 years of dosing in this tank.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

So I start excel dosing. In just the first day I see something I've never seen before...bubbles everywhere....coming from all the plants. Poor things just needed some carbon!

I add some iron tabs under the swords (I add a 3rd one), and also add two water sprites. The goldfish promptly decimate the water sprites.



















We also get a few moss balls as they're on sale. The goldfish love them. They don't actually eat the moss balls, but vacuum them while pushing them around like fluffy ping pong balls. I also removed the large rock on the right. I noticed it seemed to be creating some debris, and was worried it might be effecting tank chemistry...plus it was displacing a few gallons of water just by itself!)

I also get the flourish plant pack, and some standard flourish. Within a day, there is a substantial change in the growth in the tank. Things aren't just surviving, they're finally growing!

The black moors launch an assault on the black hair algae. Within a few days (with the excel) and the moors, all the black hair algae has been eaten and turned into poop.










One of the swords decides to escape, and grows straight up, over an inch a day. I finally trimmed it after it made it out of the tank.

You'll also notice that I added a second filter. I added an aquaclear 50 after reading more about how my tank was overstocked, so I wanted an excess of filtration. Also thanks to this forum, I swapped out the chemical media, and doubled up on the sponges, as well as buying some micron filter media in bulk and cutting it to aquaclear size, providing some much needed polishing.










I should mention around this point I get a full test kit, and find everything happily in the green!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

I was starting to get a little pissed off at maintaining the aquaclears. Though the media baskets were setup to be easily removed and accessed, anytime you lifted them, all sorts of crud from the bottom of the filter would come flying out, completely saturating the tank. Thus to properly "rinse" the sponges, required removing the entire filter assembly away from the tank...which was a chore based on the tank placement.

Thus when I come into a lot of side work recently, and learned about the secret "CK" dr foster's code, I picked up a rena filstar XP3, along with an inline heater.

Thanks to this forum, the install of the filstar went a lot better then it could have gone. Those hose connections were absurd! Luckily I just used some light vegetable oil and heat, and they slid right on without issue!

The flow of the XP3 is actually pretty good for the tank. Though I'm thinking of adding a small little power head in the back rear to get some flow in the back. I found an awesome giant prefilter sponge for the XP3. It easily pops on/off so I can clean it, and now I won't have tons of plant debris flying through an impeller. I'm leaving the aquaclear 70 on the tank for a few weeks while some biological colonies get started in the XP3. I've also taken the Aquaclear 70 and 50's bio media and placed it in the XP3, hoping to speed the process.

I also went a little plant crazy, and got some moneywort, and water wisteria, as well as some vals. Oh and some green camboa? I forget the spelling.

Basically I went insane and ended up with this.










Pretty disorganized and all over the place. Also some of the leaves of the swords needed trimming, as the algae had done its damage and they were not doing so well.

At this point I'm doing a full seachem dosing routine. Excel daily, the rest once a week after a water change. (macro's and flourish).


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

At this point I decide to do some major trimming and reorganizing.

I remove the original petsmart decoration, and add a new more vertical one, along with a uv green killer to see if it helps with algae on the sides of the tank. I trim about 75% of the leaves off the swords, chop the destroyed water sprite stems, and basically move the plants around. 

I end up with this.










I was able to tuck the uv system into the corner, and set it up so after it filters, it basically ejects right into the intake of the XP3. The decoration really distracts from the inlet, sponge, and uv device now.

The center of the tank is a lot more open, and the plants seem to be doing quite well, except for the moneywort.

Next up is a change of background to black, and some eco-complete replacing about 50% of the gravel. If the money wort doesn't make it, I'll probably replace it with more green Cabomba.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

And now finally, here are some nice photos of the actual inhabitants of the tank. Enjoy and thanks for reading!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Swapped out the blue gradient background with a black one. Trimmed some more plants so all the damaged leaves are gone (from the massive algae outbreak), also removed the aquaclear 70, now that the XP3 has had some time to be established.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Well at least people are looking at the journal, if they aren't posting in it! Well happy new year anyway! :icon_smil

Here's a January update. Based on forum threads, I decided to relocate the spray bar for the xp3 on the same side as the intake, spraying towards the opposite end of the tank. The fish seem happier with this configuration...though I still haven't figured out the exact flow adjustment that provides 100% water circulation throughout the tank.










Though I haven't started injecting Co2 yet, the plants seem to be doing really well. The val's are spreading like crazy, with little shoots popping up here and there. After trimming the swords way down (getting all the damaged leaves off), one of them went and had babies!

I've put together a second tank upstairs (20L) that I had laying around from some old hamsters a year or so ago, and am setting it up as a plant only tank, using offshoots from the main tank to grow them up. This second tank (I'll start another journal), is my CO2 learning tank. I'll be starting with a DIY setup for now, and moving eventually to a full GLA pressurized setup within 6 months, which I then hope to hookup to the main aquarium via a CO2 rex style reactor.


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

I am not a fan of the subtrate, (I know your changing it) but the tank looks really good! Great photography too!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks Jake! I have 30 lbs of Eco complete rdy to go in, just waiting fir the 20 gallon to get settled to use as a temporary holding tank fir the goldfish while I tear up the 46.

I'm also still debating replacing all the gravel and getting another 20 lbs...I know it's bad to replace all the gravel in an established tank, but I'll always have blue pebbles if I don't!


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

crossbow said:


> Thanks Jake! I have 30 lbs of Eco complete rdy to go in, just waiting fir the 20 gallon to get settled to use as a temporary holding tank fir the goldfish while I tear up the 46.
> 
> I'm also still debating replacing all the gravel and getting another 20 lbs...I know it's bad to replace all the gravel in an established tank, but I'll always have blue pebbles if I don't!


Nice job with the journal. 

I suggest removing all of the blue gravel before adding the eco-complete for the reason you mention. It'll look much better and probably be more beneficial for your plants.


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## RipariumGuy (Aug 6, 2009)

As long as you have an established filter and you can do some WC's, I think you will be Ok if you change it all. Good luck!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for the advice guys. In that case, I'm going to order another 20 lbs to fill out the tank. Something to do next weekend!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

The goldfish are destroyers of all things plants. It's a challenge trying to find things they won't attempt to eat. I watched one of the black moors eat an entire val like a guinea pig, all in one long line...then poop it out an hour later...lol.

The plants (other then algae issues still) are still winning slightly vs the 5 grazing cows, and have been sending off babies and little shoots everywhere. I've thrown together a separate tank, to handle some of these extra plants. Any offspring I'm placing in the 20L, as well as any plants the goldfish dislodge. 










It's a bit of a mishmash right now, as it's using spare parts to run. You will notice a few things...

1) It's got actual plant gravel! (eco-complete)
2) It's got a DIY CO2 system, with the hagen modded distribution system!

Trying to apply some of the lessons I've been learning . The 20L also has the lighting from the original seaclear hood, (2x20 watt 6700K), the fluval 200watt heater, and the goldfish aquaclear 70. 

I don't know about the lighting so far...after dealing with the AHsupply lighting, the seaclear lighting seems weak and pathetic. I'm watching the growth, and it's not as rapid as I would have thought. The seaclear hood doesn't even have reflectors for it's two lights. Just some standard bulbs in some sockets.

Should I look into getting an 55watt AHsupply kit for this tank? Thoughts? Ideas?


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

How long have you had the plants in the 20L? Plants often times need to adjust to the new parameters and develop roots, and this might be why you're noticing slow growth. Still, you're only receiving 2WPG (yes, I realize the WPG rule is not very reliable) and that might be limiting your growth too, as you noted. If you have the money, I don't think you can go wrong with the 55W kit. Just so you know, with increased lighting there is a chance for more algae; however, it sounds like you don't plan on stocking the 20L so if algae becomes an issue you can increase your CO2 levels.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Dj,
Thanks for the reply. I guess the one thing I haven't yet learned with planted tanks is patience. I'll give it a few weeks before I invest in another lighting solution. Maybe instead I'll figure out a way to separate these two lights and mount them to AHsupply reflectors. That at least would be quite a bit cheaper!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Some small updates. For my birthday I got a nice dr fosters gift certificate, and with the help of this forum and multiple coupon codes/CK goodness, got a load of goodies. Part of the goodies is the new substrate that will be replacing the "blue" gravel from petsmart. Right now I've got about 70 lbs of eco-complete, but might order one more batch and put another 10 lbs in the 20L, and 80 lbs total in the 46 bowfront. (Current gravel amount is 50 lbs of generic blue crap in the 46).

[Any comments on this? 40 lbs in the 20L and 80lbs in the 46 bow?]

I've also being doing lots of research into pressurized Co2, and have begun prepping for it's install as well. Going to go with a GLA (GLA Model) regulator, with a 10 lb tank, with a rex reactor for diffusion. I'm going to be running a day/night cycle, with the co2 shutoff an hour before lights out, and turned back on an hour before startup. Turns out there is a roberts oxygen within walking distance to me, so now I just have to figure out where to get a used 10 lb tank.

In the meantime, my local LFS got some nerite snails in stock...i bought 5 of them, and a few days later, went back and bought the remaining 2. Sorry if anyone was hoping to get any! These things are incredible. They've completely eliminated any remaining algae on the sword leaves in a matter of days. They also seemed to have "flushed out" where some of the remaining pond snails have been hiding, which i quickly squashed.

Here's a photo of the recovered sword. I almost killed 3 swords while trying to learn how to fert and such...pretty much lost 90% of their main leaves, but now have recovered and are slowly coming back up.










White balance is off (iphone photo)...and the fish love to steal the spotlight. But you can clearly see some of the snail poop on one of the leaves I was about to trim off a few days ago, and now is completely cleaned off.


As for the goldfish grazing/destructors, here are my successes and failures so far.

*Baby tears.* Were devoured within a few days.

*Duckweed* that came with another plant by accident. Gone in hours.

*Swords*. Generally left alone, unless a leaf is damaged, then the moors slowly tear off pieces. On a happier note, the black moors also ate ALL of the hair algae off of these.

*Vals.* Inital planting was very thin strands. The moors ripped these up pretty good. But each strand that was removed, was replaced by a 4-6x thicker strand of grass, which the goldfish no longer attacked. The amount of Val's in the tank has quadrupled since the original planting, and are slowly filling the back of the tank.

*Anacharis* : The goldfish can't beat this plant. No matter how much they eat, it grows back, basically creating an endless cycle of goldfish auto trimming/growing.

*Moss Balls:* The goldfish vacuum these daily. They are very slowly swelling in size.

*Money Wort:* The moors tore and damaged the leaves of these plants so severely that they began dying off. I moved the healthiest remaining plant to nursery tank upstairs.

*Water Wisteria:* These leaves are too fragile for the goldfish, and one bunch of plants was eviscerated. They're regrowing in the nursery tank now. The remaining bunch seems to have thickened it's leaves and the goldfish are leaving it alone now.

*Green Camboa:* I love the way this plant looks. The goldfish leave it alone generally, as it slowly grows upwards to the top of the tank. One piece grew high enough to enter the xp3 outflow stream, and snapped its stem. 

*The mystery unnamed plant:* I originally purchased this plant as a "water sprite"










The goldfish tore its leaves down, and left it as bare stems. I noticed some leaves growing at the base, so I trimmed the long stems off and waited...eventually getting this regrowth.










The regrowth of leaves is much different. They are significantly thicker and broader, and have a yellowish/red tint to them. I believe this is the plant in question, but am not entirely sure.

Rotala Indica
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=768+1618&pcatid=1618

Any thoughts?

Upcoming plant types I'm attempting, are a java fern, and some dwarf rush grass. (The randomness is due to local plant sales  )

Last but not least. Someone on the forum was showing how to make an extremely cheap but somewhat ugly looking lighting setup for tanks that aren't show tanks. I took their advice and setup up 3 vertical cone reflectors with 23 watt CFL's. (about 22 bucks in total) The effect blows the default 2x20 watt seaclear hood away. I thought I had pearling before...ha!










That's my latest update! Thanks for reading!


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## JennaH (Sep 28, 2009)

i love reading your journal! it's so detailed i feel like im reading a book or something haha. congrats on your success with keeping plants and goldfish together, it can be challenging!


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm enjoying all the details as well.


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## devadair (Nov 24, 2009)

I love your tank, I have Goldfish as well and am actually looking at the same bowfront to upgrade. I should let you know that MOST plants, GF will eat. The only ones I can tell you you'll have major success with are the large leafed swords and ferns along with the moss balls. And when they get bigger they might even trying pulling those out of your substrate. Just my advice 

Basically whatever they can fit in their mouths, they eat. Rofl.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think your "mystery plant" is Rotala indica.

The blue gravel keeps killing me (lol) but I'm liking the tank, otherwise, and I've got this thread subscribed so I can refer the next person who comes along and wants to try a planted goldfish tank! roud:


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

What type(s) of Nerites did you buy? Olives? Make sure they get enough calcium in their diet (cheapest way is likely a piece of cuttlebone that they can snack on).


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for your comments guys!



> Basically whatever they can fit in their mouths, they eat. Rofl.


LOL I believe this. I think the only thing preventing the goldfish from eating certain plants is their size! Once these guys get a few inches larger, say goodbye to everything with fragile leaves! I'm hoping by the time this happens, I'll be in a new place where I can put together a 120 tank, just for the goldfishes, then try turning the 46 into a tetra tank, like laura's .

Laura,
Ha ya. Don't worry, I have 80 lbs of eco-complete waiting to go in there. I'm just planning out driftwood and a semi-scape before I tear down the tank. I'm also giving the XP3 a full month or two to accumulate as much bacteria as possible, so as to minimize any cycles which occur from dumping 50 lbs of bacteria gravel out.

dj,
Yes they are olive nerite snails. Wow good to know. Will any cuttle bone work? I guess I could just break off a piece of it and place it in the back of the tank?


Here are some photos for your viewing pleasure. The first is the wicked piece of driftwood that showed up at my local LFS the other day. It looks like a prehistorical dino skull! The best part? The back section of it, is curved perfectly for the XP3 intake/sponge...it's like someone designed it to fit back there! The driftwood also has very few sharp edges (good for moors), and any existing edges, I will probably sand the tips down to prevent any fish disasters.



















Last is a photo of some of the river rocks I picked up. My other local LFS has some much larger ones, so I'll probably pick up a few of those to get different sizes. I'm sure these things will just get covered in algae anyway, but I thought they'd be nice to breakup the dark eco-complete color.










I'll try and get a photo of the plant growth progress in the nursery tank later today...it's currently having a massive outbreak of brown algae, caused by my overdosing ferts. I didn't realize how many nutrients the eco complete had in it. I'm stuck doing cleaning and 50% water changes for a while, and pumping the CO2 in there like crazy.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

great journel and a pretty neat idea...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That's a beautiful piece of DW!

I look forward to seeing the new 'scape come together. (Especially the black Eco...:flick: LOL)


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## zavikan (Jan 5, 2009)

good luck man. This reminds me alot of my journey into planted tanks as well. So full of ignorance and bad purchases.... :icon_roll:icon_roll

But it kept my brain occupied and it was alot of fun. Sometimes it got tedious... but every time I would finish something tedious, I would be so happy.

Also the many times I would research a particular area co2, light, substrate, plants, fish, and then impliment it to my tank. 

I'm still attempting to master my own fish tank (journal), though I get better and better at it. Its always a journey forward.

I did not journal my first tank nearly as much as you did. Its fun to read it and look back at how it mirrors my own experience with it. Keep up good spirits and HAVE FUN!


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

crossbow said:


> dj,
> Yes they are olive nerite snails. Wow good to know. Will any cuttle bone work? I guess I could just break off a piece of it and place it in the back of the tank?


You can wait and see if your water is sufficient. If you see shell erosion then they need more calcium. Cuttlebone is very cheap and easy to obtain which is why I recommended it, but yes, just snap off a small chunk and place it somewhere. It might take a few days to sink. Nerites grow slowly so their calcium demands are not very high.


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## anshuman (Nov 17, 2009)

very nice. Even i am carrying my own experiment of keeping a planted tank with Goldies running in it . 

My male 'popeye' is almost 9 inches long (with tail) and girl 'orangina' is around 6 inches. third goldfish (temporary, will be giving it back to friend) is 4 inches. popeye and orangina are with me for past 2-3 years, they were tiny 2 inch babies in 2.5gallon fish-bowl(i know) , i finally moved them to this new 30 Gallon tank 2 months ago ( i know i know, i waited tooo long to get big tank ) and now trying to keep plants too with them , lets see .


BTW i have to tell you , you seemed to have missed reading how goldfish like to eat vegetables etc. I know that no one actually recommends/documents/wiki's goldfish will eat vegetables, but i learned about it after getting this new tank and was astonished to see goldies devouring the blanched stuff, I give them blanched Spinach(or small lettuce) , Cucumber , Brocolli etc, all blanched enough that the stuff feels soupy/gooey etc goldies love this soft stuff and its good for their digestive system, doesnt stress it out and also prevent them from malnutrition (i.e only one type of food). try it, the goldies learn not to harm live/hard leaves in tank and wait for the blanched stuff which they know is treat.


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## anshuman (Nov 17, 2009)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKp3fUGdA38


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I really like this journal, and the way it was written narratively. Great job crossbow! And the tank is also looking very nice as well. You've made a lot of progress in a short amount of time! The big honking driftwood that you put in there to distract from the intake pipe actually ended up distracting me from the whole aquarium, but that's literally the only criticism I have. This is a very well done journal, and I like how you demonstrate all your mistakes and the lessons you learned.

Oh yeah, and it's _Cabomba_.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Haha thanks guys.

And ya my friends call the new piece of fake petsmart decoration, *"The Elephant Trunk." * So ya, that's getting yanked out of there soon and replaced with that wicked cool looking actual driftwood...which I'm sure will end up covered in some sort of algae I'll have to fight! First though, it's going to be soaked for a few weeks!

To cover the inlet pipe of the XP3, I purchased a few feet of cheap black 1 inch silicon tubing. My plan is to cut it to length, slice it down the side, and slip it over top of the blue intake piping. This should really help cut down on it's visibility, as well as being relatively easy to remove, if I need to just the intake piping for some reason.

But ya, I'm learning a lot and having fun. The second tank is really helping reduce the goldfish losses from grazing, as long as teaching me about DIY CO2, diffusion, and super cheap DIY Lighting...oh and keeping my cat out of a 20L. That's a challenge in itself!

Next stages are...

1) GLA Regulator and 10 lb CO2 Tank.
2) Rex reactor
3) 80 lbs of Eco-complete replacing 50 lbs of Great Blue Mistake Petco Gravel.
4) Actual driftwood replacing elephant trunk.
5) First attempt at actually placing something in the tank so that it looks a bit nicer.

anshuman,
I did find a page about feeding the goldfish veggies. I just haven't tried it yet. Thanks for the link and info!

dj,
I picked up some cuttlebones at petco for a few dollars. I'm going to rinse a chunk, and drop it in the tank . I don't have the ability to test for calcium, and I'm tired of buying kits! I'll just provide in case they need it. Here's hoping the goldfish don't eat it. They eat EVERYTHING. Well except pond snails...gosh I wish they'd eat pond snails.

Church,
I try to check my spelling but sometimes I get lazy after typing what seems to be pages of info...all which is usually myself admitting tons of mistakes and lost money .

zavikan,
Your tank looks GREAT. I wish I could get some ground cover in mine. Right now the only ground cover I get is from val's growing so fast, the moors can't keep up with uprooting it.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Here's some photo updates of the main tank.

Tank as a whole









This shows the latest placement of the spray bar, and some various misc new plants. Mainly some ferns (I got 2 for 4 dollars which was a steal), and some dwarf rush. I'm probably going to keep one of the ferns in this tank, I can't figure out where to place one of them right now.


This is Rena the Nerite Snail. He loves to spend all day making sure I can see that bright blue intake. 










This is a photo showing how thick the Val's have grown in. They've got to be about 4-6x thicker then they were originally. Fish in the foreground is ember.











This is a shot of the ever growing Cabomba, with Darth the moor in foreground. I still need to figure out the flow from the spray bar, to help keep this plant more vertical in the tank.


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## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

Lookin pretty cool! I like the cabomba and vals. But it looks as though the E. densa is just plopped in there in a random clump. Those ferns are a real deal. I got one for 7.50 and it was smaller and had wrinkled leaves.

What kind of rush is that? I don't know what kinds of rushes live 100% submerged. Maybe it's a ...ZERG RUSH.:icon_mrgr (Sorry. Had to be done.)


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

seds,

The Anacharis is just basically placed there in a random clump. At one time, it was in a nice planted bunch...but the goldfish uproot it, tear it apart, decimate it...I eventually gave up and kinda of corralled it into sort of a planted bed/bunch. At it's current location, it is maintaining a level of growth which allows the goldfish to snack on it continuously, but not die off. I've decided to leave well enough alone for now .

I could try replanting it with the rescaping, but they love it so much, I'm absolutely sure they'd just tear it all up again. One day I'll have a tank where the fish generally leave the plants alone...one day! 

Oh man, can't wait for starcraft 2! I hope it doesn't get too messed up with that odd triple pack...

The rush was picked up from petsmart. They had a plant sale recently. I believe it's this rush.
http://www.liveaquaria.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=768+795&pcatid=795

So far the goldies are leaving it alone. If they continue to do so, I'll probably pick up another bunch and use it in the future noobscape.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I can't believe I am saying this - but the blue gravel is growing on me. I am normally not a fan of blue gravel with plants, but for some reason, it works for the goldfish planted tank. I might miss it once you put in the Eco. Do you have names for your fish? If I had those guys, they would definitely be named. They have so much character. I love that you are keeping a journal of the plants that are compatible. This will be invaluable for others that decide to setup a goldfish tank (something I want to do in the future).


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Ha! I think I might miss it a little bit. But I could always add it later if I had to had some...maybe I'll so something silly like make a little gravel ring around a plant with blue gravel...hahaha.

The goldies names are...

Black Moors
Darth and Vader (though I renamed the larger one to Chomper)

Red and White Oranda's
Fin
Koi

Telescopic Calico
Ember

My gf also really really wants to get a ranchu/lionhead that is ridiculously adorable at our local LFS, and it's taking quite some persuasion to avoid getting him. (We are already overstocked!). These little guys are going to be nearly 10-12 inches in a few years! Hopefully by then we'll have our own place, and can see about getting a 125 wide. (72x24x17). I think that would be perfect for 6 super happy goldfish.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

That's an awesome looking goldfish tank!

Does have the spray bar near the intake give 100% circulation? I'm trying to find a way to circulate my tanks water.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Chris, yes it does...but I'm still fiddling with it.  Right now there is too much bounce back current. You can see it in the vals. They are angles over instead of vertical. I'm planning on trying to extend the spraybar length and #of holes and then place it across the rear pointing to the front. Haven't done that yet.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Great names. All goldfish deserve names in my opinion. They are so adorable, it's hard not to. How is the little guy doing with the split fin?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

I think that's chomper/Darth. He's great. I actually didn't even notice this, but his fin is completely healed. No split, doesn't even look like he damaged it in the first place...he is growing CRAZY fast. His activity is aggravating. He somehow ripped a java fern out of the center rock. Not only was it wedged in there, but it was tied in place too!!! LOL. At least they are hilarious. Makes up for the constant maintenance. . 

The two goldfish, fin and koi (oranda's), are definitely the fastest in terms of snagging food...but the moors are growing the quickest. I use sinking pellets, and the oranda's give up after the food sinks about 75% of the way down...then the moors just go nuts scavenging all the dropped pellets.

I do worry about the calico. He's the least aggressive when it's feeding time, and appears to eat the least. He's not sick, but probably isn't getting as much food as the other four.

I wish they ate the nerite snail EGGS...nerites seem to produce a dozen eggs for every foot of algae they eat!


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

i think your goldfish are cute


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

crossbow said:


> I wish they ate the nerite snails...nerites seem to produce a dozen eggs for every foot of algae they eat!


With glass tanks, one can use a utility knife blade to scrape the eggs away. Not sure about acrylic tanks.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Dj,

I thought about what I could use that was similar to a utility knife, only less likely to scratch the acrylic. I ended up using a safeway membership card, worked great at getting those eggs off the glass!

Here's an update photo. I redid the XP3 spray bar AGAIN. I was tired of seeing all the plants looking like they were being blown over by storm winds.










You can always tell when I use the iphone instead of the nikon D80 .


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

I have reached a proud turning point that I would like to share with the forum. Now, after a few months of aggravation of trying to get things to survive...i now have a plant that is growing at an absurd rate.

Note the val's in the back of my tank on 1/30/10.

Now take a look at them!



















They grew up, got hit by the spraybar output...but no, that doesn't stop super grass....now they've grown long enough to almost physically touch the front of the tank.

Hurray! I finally have stuff I have to trim for a reason other then death or algae!


Questions for anyone listening/watching/reading on Val's.

1) Can I trim them like grass? Just chop off a few inches?

2) When can i separate the propagating plant from it's parent?

3) I thought these plants were vulnerable to dosing excel? (That's my carbon source).


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

wow... i started reading this thread and was anticipating a train wreck... but wow, the plants look awesome, the fish are really healthy and except for the blue gravel... i love this tank... great work


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

crossbow said:


> Questions for anyone listening/watching/reading on Val's.
> 
> 1) Can I trim them like grass? Just chop off a few inches?
> 
> ...


Fantastic growth! I am also glad to hear about the fish's fin. Forgot I posted in two places asking about your Chomper/Darth. :wink:

1. Yes. Don't be surprised if the ends get a little brown line after the trim, though. Doesn't always happen but can and is normal.
2. You can seperate them as soon as you wish. The longer you leave them, the longer the roots will be. 
3. I melted vals quick this way! However, others say it's not an issue. I think it's an acclimation thing.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Awesome. I'll get snipping and relocating this weekend. I'm considering just yanking out the elephant trunk, and replanting bunches of Val's in it's place. I'm also debating on doing the substrate switch. I really want to put in the eco-complete...but everything is so stable in this tank now. I don't feel like going through weeks of waiting again .

I noticed when I first added the two small bunches of Vals, that they melted away to almost nothing in a week...then they came back out of no where, 4-6x thicker, and way greener. (Excel is my only carbon source currently).

Anyone know the particular species of Val that I have? Common name is fine. 

I'm thinking when the goldfish move to the 120-180G, that it would be awesome to try and setup just a Val tank. I think it's fitting to have a lot of grass for some floating cows .


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Here is this weekends update. Thanks to sewings advice, I chopped off about 10 feet (if you connected it end to end) of Val tips.

I then yanked out the elephant trunk, plants that weren't doing so hot, and replanted about 25% of the val mass where the elephant trunk looking thing used to be.










Bad news? I didn't do the gravel switch yet. It snowed nearly 3 feet here. Only had enough energy for replanting and doing a 30% WC.

Good news? The Val's are growing about 1-1.5 inches a day! Other plants seem to being very well...except for the broad leaf plants...they got that damn black algae spots that I can't seem to defeat.

Will update on Val growth next weekend to see how it explodes!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Here's another weekend update. Everyone in the tank doing well. Was worried about fin today, but seems he just wanted to nap a little this morning. Fed them some skinned peas for dinner tonight.

Moved some plants around, put the java ferns and the sword in the back in another tank. After i moved the swords, some of the plants exploded...The iron tabs broke up, and allowed easier access to the iron. I've sense put some additional iron tabs by the Val's.










Forgive the microbubbles. Had a scrambling incident with the python water temp (i take photos on maintenance/water change day), and ended up with a lot more bubbles then normal.

I think the species of Val I have is Vallisneria gigantea. Any comments on this? This stuff is growing like crazy now. I'll trim 5 inches off one day, and a few days later, it's touching the front of the tank, or growing out of the tank. I've probably trimmed about 10 feet worth by now in just the past few weeks!

Oh and my Egeria densa has now turned into ground cover. The goldfish can not even minorly dent its growth now.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Another week, another photo update! Here's the general overview of the tank!










Vallisneria growing strong, starting to fill in front of the sponge filter intake. The goldfish have also expressed a strong desire to NOT have any Val's in the center of the tank, as any growth in that area, is almost immediately uprooted. Ok guys, I get the picture!

Another explosive growth occured in the Anacharis bunch. I removed a dinner plate worth of plant, replanting some in another smaller tank upstairs, and basically disposing of the rest, leaving the best looking plant material behind. It was starting to really take over the tank, and was roughly the size of a dodgeball in volume. Now it's closer to a softball in volume.

The Rotala Indica is growing fantastic. It's also showing a lot of color. The interesting thing is, it doesn't look much like any of the photos I've seen online of it. It's got its own particular bunching/shaping going on. Here's some photos.



















An interesting side note. In the past week I did some water testing, and found the nitrates to be quite high. I immediately stopped dosing nitrogen, and they dropped back down to 20-30 ppm. I know a lot of people find that it's difficult to have plants with goldfish, but at their level of waste production, I don't see how you could NOT have plants with them. The nitrates in a plantless goldfish tank have got to be absurd. 

Phosphates are still low (usually around 0.5ppm), so I'm still continuing to dose that and potassium.

We also found out the sex of most of our goldfish this week. It appears we have 4 males and 2 females. Got a great shot of male identification on one of the black moors, Chomper. You can see the raised bumps on the gill. 










Here's another shot, just because.









We've begun investigating plans for moving these fish to a 150 Gallon  Tenecor tank. 72x24x20. I'll be sure to start another journal when those plans come closer together. I'm hoping to do a lower tech, possibly Val's only planted tank for that behemoth! 

Thanks for reading!


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## Robotguy (Jan 24, 2010)

Looks Beautiful! I'm jealous. My vals are sending out runners and getting occasional new leaves, but don't seem to be growing any taller. I plan to start fertilizing next week (only DIY CO2 at the moment) so your success gives me hope.

Just an idea: I thought my goldies were uprooting my corkscrew vals (and they may have been) but recently realized that the runners were heading straight down in my shallow substrate and pushing the rest of the plant out. It looks like the substrate in the center of your tank is a bit shallower, so this may be a factor.

I am certain the goldfish were uprooting my dwarf hairgrass with all of their nuzzling around the base.


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## JennaH (Sep 28, 2009)

your fish pictures are fantastic! so clear. i love your black moors, they have such an interesting shape to them. tank is coming along nicely. you still planning on swapping out the substrate?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the blue gravel is proof that you an grow most plants in anything!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for the comments guys!



> My vals are sending out runners and getting occasional new leaves, but don't seem to be growing any taller. I plan to start fertilizing next week (only DIY CO2 at the moment) so your success gives me hope.


If you scroll back, there is a photo about once a week of the tank. You can watch the Val's undergo quite a change. Pretty much every Val I had completely melted away and ended up being "plucked" by the moors. Then I noticed the grass coming back up, but much thicker and lusher. (No CO2 injection, just excel and seachem phosphate/potassium/flourish/trace)

The grass you see now is completely different from the initial plantings I purchased! Now it's growing roughly 6-8 inches a week. It usually ends up bending over in front of the swaybar, then growing till it touches the front of the tank, at which point I trim it before taking a photo.



> the runners were heading straight down in my shallow substrate and pushing the rest of the plant out. It looks like the substrate in the center of your tank is a bit shallower, so this may be a factor.


This is definitely part of what is happening. I only have about 2 inches of substrate in the tank, and I now understand why you need about 3. The grass is lifting out from pressing down on the acrylic bottom. I actually just scooped out the center of the tank, and increased the depth of the rear to help compensate for this. The fish seem to like having the center clear, and uproot anything I put there, so might as well utilize that space to protect the grass.



> your fish pictures are fantastic! so clear.


I use a nikon D80, with a 50mm F1.8 lens to snap the shots. Out of 100 photos, about 5 make it .



> you still planning on swapping out the substrate?





> the blue gravel is proof that you an grow most plants in anything!


I've decided NOT to swap the substrate. The tank is at a point where I'm now really enjoying it. Algae growth is massively reduced from a month ago, and I don't even really have to wipe the acrylic down anymore during weekly maintenance. The plants are growing fast and beautifully, so much so that I have to trim the tall ones weekly!

I'm worried that yanking everything up, will reset the tank, and I'll have to through this whole process over again. I kinda of like just enjoying the tank for now .

I have thought about putting in 1 bag of eco-complete, to the existing gravel...but since I vacuum the substrate weekly (goldfish poop everywhere!), it'll just mix together. Black and blue might still be better then just blue. I'll see what I decide!

Colleen, my gf, recently put this information on a goldfish forum, and they are now saying that you need closer to 10-20 gallons per fancy tail goldfish (vs the 30+ I was thinking), so I'm actually only slightly overstocked now, which is a relief. We are still planning on a 150G in the future though!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

An easy way to change the substrate is too basically divide the tank into 'thirds' and vaccum out the gravel one third at a time using a `1/2 or 3/4" hose. Replace that third with the new substrate and wait a few days maybe a week and do another third until it's done. If you want to prevent the old substrate from falling into the new just use rocks or a divider of somesort to keep it separate. By doing it this way the tank will adjust easily.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

House of cards,
That's a great suggestion! Thanks! I still haven't decided though! 

Here is this weeks update! Nothing much has changed, plants growing, fish growing, everybody healthy. Oh wait there was something....

We've now found out we have 4 males and 1 female, not 2 females 3 males as we originally thought. The fish have started showcasing mating behavior, and the males are competing with one another...basically chasing each other around the tank to the point of exhaustion. We've started looking for someone to pick up 2 of the fish (one of the females, and the most aggressive male (fin)), so will be dropping down to 3 total goldfish for awhile. This should give them more breathing room, stop the competition, and give us some time to plan for the larger tank.










I took some photos of the top of the tank to show those who might be considering this type of tank for their own use.










This shows the scavenged piece from the original crappy lighting enclosure that came with it. I use it to help retain heat in the tank, and to keep the ballast/ah supply light protected.










This shows the limited work space at the top of the tank. The holes are 15 long, by 10 wide, greatly limiting what you can put in the tank. You can also see the rear slot, and the side slot which I'm putting the intake/output of the XP3.

Here's some poor top down shots of the tank. First is trying to show you how much those Val's grow in the span of a week. You can see the Val actually touching the front of the tank here. That particular piece almost grew a foot! The other shot I forgot to resize. I'll upload it later!











Thanks for reading! And all your comments and suggestions!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Took a quick short video of the tank and it's inhabitants in action. Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FYTUfCPRPQ


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## JennaH (Sep 28, 2009)

fantastic. your goldfish are so adorable. the calico seems very lazy compared to the rest haha. they remind me of boxers when they swim, shaking their butt side to side like they are excited to see you


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## Niyona (Feb 20, 2010)

Wow! I love those gold fish  Great tank! Glad the Val is working out for you so well. I think it looks great against all the blue in the tank.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

March Update!










Another weekly update. Male goldfish are becoming quite aggressive, will definitely have to move the female very soon. Their aggression is resulting in the shedding of scales, from when they rub up against each other and the sides of the aquarium.

Got some free duckweed from the local LFS, which basically covered the entire top of the aquarium. Within 2-3 days, the goldfish had turned it all into a massive amount of green poop. Just in time for WC day! Also seemed to have gotten some other floating plants (for free!), that I hope might survive. Don't have any ID's on them yet. You can see two of them on the left of the photo.


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

That's water lettuce.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Your plants are fantastic. You know you are doing something right when the goldfish decide to show breeding characteristics. I second the water lettuce. I am surprised they haven't tried eating it.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Awesome! My LFS is great. I didn't even realize it, but they also gave me a free clump of java moss! (it's sitting in the little rock in the front) So far the goldies haven't found it, but I know when they do, it'll be gone in seconds.

Chomper (the large black moor), has been attacking the water lettuce roots, but he doesn't seem to be winning currently.

I did a quick little time lapse from jan to march...and wow has the Rotala indica grown in amazing ways. When I go back to the LFS I got it from, ours doesn't look anything like the original plant. One of the most amazing and rewarding things in this hobby is how each plant grows differently depending on the conditions of the tank.

I notice it's now taking a slight reddish hue on the tallest parts of the plants. I'm thinking of ordering some Rotala macranda and planting it adjacent when I redo the scape eventually.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Another week, another update! 

Once again had to chop the Anacharis in half. It was taking up about a gallon of volume by itself! Decided not to trim the Val's this week. Curious to see what happens if I let them go two weeks instead of a weekly trim.

Removed the sword. It has been looking out of place for quite some time, and is constantly under algae assault. 

The free water lettuce I got from the LFS is growing at an astounding rate. I removed all the babies and am just keeping the two main masses in the tank, as the root structures look pretty wicked!

Was at the local petsmart in gaithersburg the other day, and ran into an awesome employee by the name of Tyler. He was extremely knowledgeable on goldfish, and is happily going to take the female off our hands. It's good to know she'll be going to a good home full of happy fish and tanks.

We've also begun looking at houses, so one less fish will be one less to worry about when moving! Will have some additional threads on moving suggestions and the plans for the 125G when the time is ripe!

Thanks for reading!


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## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

That is an obscene amount of growth! The vals look great!

You should try not trimming anything for a couple weeks and see what happens.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

Crossbow, I just had a great time reading your journal. I especially like this last page, it was like a cartoon I looked at a picture, scrolled down, then saw the same picture but everything had grown like 5 inches! You must be doing something right man, it looks great,
Keep on postin,
Your pal,


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## JennaH (Sep 28, 2009)

i agree w/ everyone else, the growth is crazy fast it seems like-especially the vals. i like the look of the taller vals. i see the moss didn't make it very long..:hihi:


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## tak13 (Jan 12, 2010)

First time see a Goldfish Journal in this forum. Great tank for goldfishes.


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## prototyp3 (Dec 5, 2007)

Super helpful info in here. I have a friend starting her fish aquarium ever, and she picked up some goldfish but wanted some plants as well.

So, did they ever find and devour the java moss?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks for all the great comments guys!

As for the java moss. I took it out not because the goldfish were eating it, but because they couldn't stop playing with it. I tried wedging it under rocks, tying it, jamming it in a plant....it didn't matter. The moors found it, and gleefully ripped it out and played with it like some sort of aquatic fish beachball.

What I find most interesting, is at this point in the tanks growth, the goldfish become gardeners themselves. If any Val gets algae on it, and if the nerites don't clean it off, it eventually starts degrading. The goldfish constantly swim around the tank, testing the strength of all the plants. They nip at the algae Val's, the val eventually comes lose (as it degrades), and they either eat it, or it floats to the top and I remove it from the tank.
_(I watched chomper, the largest black moor, eat a roughly 4-5 inch Val blade, just like a gerbil. Just floating chomping away...eventually the entire blade was swallowed...then he proceeded to poop out a nice 4-5 inch poop string. lol)_

As I typed this, I watched one of the goldfish go systematically to each plant type in the tank, one at a time. Guess they like their salad bar!


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Simply beautiful. I love it to the point the blue gravel is interesting to me. No one else has this, and it works for me. It really does show off the goldfish wonderfully.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

haha planted goldfish journel,

I love it... great work...


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

My goldies ate $10.00 worth of duckweed in about 2 hrs, also they ate my beloved baby tears. For some reason they are not interested in my anacharis, cabombas, moneywort, hornwort and wisteria. Too bad, b/c I would love to be able to have baby tears. Btw, I tried hidding the baby tears as much as I could, to no avail. They found it and ate it, like they did it on purpose:smile:


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

This week's update! Still haven't trimmed...Val growth is out of control. It's hard to see exactly how there is from the front of the tank, because you miss a lot of the depth. I found that once you pull out about 40-50% of the water, suddenly you can REALLY see how thick and ridiculous the Val's have gotten. Here's some shots for your enjoyment!










It's a jungle for sure!











In other news. We gave away the female black moor. She was the only female in the tank, and was causing a ruckus among the males. We gave her to a great guy by the name of tyler, who has a huge host of goldfish tanks, so hopefully she's in a good home!

Since we moved her, I swear the males are slightly depressed. Goldfish have such personalities! This also moves us to a non overstocked state (at their current size), giving us more time to plan a move to a larger tank. Best case scenario I'd like about 20 gallons per goldie, so will be shooting for 6 total in a 125 at some point in the near year or so.

You will also notice a second moss ball, some wisteria, and you might catch a baby sword. We are looking at houses, and I've begun preping for a move. I took down our secondary tank, which was holding 2 baby moors, and all the nearly destroyed plants from this tank. (Kinda of a recovery tank). (The two baby moors were also given to tyler).

I figured moving one tank would be less worry then trying to move two!

barbarossa,
My LFS gave me so much duckweed, I didn't think they could possibly eat it all. They did without issue. It was insane. So much green poop!

sewingalot,
We actually picked the blue gravel originally because we felt the black moors would disappear against darker gravel!


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## JennaH (Sep 28, 2009)

good luck with the move! did you ever decide on a new tank? i love the 1st picture of the calico and panda (sorry if i got the colors wrong) swimming straight into the val


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Jenna,

I'm holding off on the new tank, but the plan thus far is...

125G, 72x20x18. 2x XP3, GLA Regulator on a 10lb tank, with split output feeding diffusers off each XP3 output, with Eco-Complete. No idea on lighting yet. When I get closer to actually planning it out, I'll start a new thread asking for suggestions on lighting and layout. 

I finally trimmed the tank earlier this week. The Val's were so thick, it was effecting the output of the XP3, and water movement on the surface and through the tank was being negatively effected. I trimmed off roughly 8-12 inches on each plant. It was absurd. Here's a photo of the aftermath.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Another Week, another journal update!










No big changes this week. Everything growing well, fish happy, specs good. Rotela seems to be growing at an insane pace. It's now shooting out horizontally along the gravel trying to expand. I find this hilarious, because the plant barely grew at all the first month or so...in fact I thought it was going to die off!

The goldfish seem to taken a liking to uprooting and removing cambomba. You'll notice that side is slightly thinner now. Instead of replanting, I'm removing the chunks they uproot. I find its best to let the goldfish do what they want! 

Here's some shots for those looking for a journal with gratuitous amounts of photos!


Chomper in action! (Koi in background)










Nice shot of Ember!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Wonderful to know that there are some plants that work with Golds!


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Those are nice fish. I have a couple of comets and I really want to put together a nice setup with plants for them.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Guys! This week you get a DOUBLE Update! I forgot to post last weeks Saturday photo, so you'll get two in a row now!

1st Week of April









2nd Week of April










Updates in the last two weeks. You'll immediately notice the right side of the tank is thinning out. This is the goldfishes doing. They have decided no more cabomba, and have been yanking it out piece by piece. 

Since cabomba is nearly impossible to get stable in this gravel (even with multiple weights), I've just decided to let the goldfish do what they want. I started replanting some grass bunches over on that side of the tank, and will probably eliminate the cabomba completely once we move.

As to the move, we put a bid on a townhouse. 3 level townhouse with a garage and basement! Basement is right as you walk in, and is on the concrete foundation, with a sink setup perfectly for python use!

On to fish photos!

I love how chomper looks like a shark in the background...such a wicked cool fish!









Fin putting on a show









Chomper and Koi being friendly. (Easy to see growth in this shot!)









Thanks for reading and your comments!


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

Nice fish. I have to admit I was a little leery about blue gravel, but it looks like it is working for you. Your wall o' vals looks nice along the back like that. Where the goldfish eating the cabomba, or just playing with it?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

They were both eating the cabomba, and eventually seemed to just play with it by yanking it out of the substrate.

The blue gravel is made up of rather large pieces, and doesn't hold plants with weak root structures very well, so if the goldfish start really attacking it, the plant gets ripped right out.

I have about 80 lbs of eco-complete to put in the tank once we get moved, and that seems to hold plants much better....of course I also don't like the way cabomba pieces end up floating all over the tank, so I'll probably eliminate it as a future goldfish plant.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

The coolest things about goldfish is they get pretty as the grow older.

I had problems with moors as a kid. They lost their black color and turned tan. Not sure if it was genetics or we they needed more variety in their diet.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Here is this weeks update!










Val's quickly taking up the space on the right as the green camboba is removed. Rotela has now reached the same height as the freshly trimmed val's. Will break up the rotela when we finally move.

Still no movement on the house, waiting on the sellers bank . Took measurements though, got a great area to put the 6 feet tank when we eventually get it!


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

just read all of the 6 pages. You have great growth for dosing excel and seachem only. I was wondering if the back panel of your acrylic tank is bowing. I bought a 55 gallon sea clear acrylic tank and the back panel is bowed like 1/4 of an inch.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Vadim,

I don't notice any bowing, but then my tank is a bowfront, so it's kinda of hard to tell!

I have heard seaclear has good warranties, and they usually have someone by the phone if you want to call and verify everything is ok. I do believe they have a set amount of acceptable bowing built in. But only the manufacturer could be more specific on that!


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

crossbow said:


> They were both eating the cabomba, and eventually seemed to just play with it by yanking it out of the substrate.


I have red and green Cabomba and love it. My goldies leave the cabomba alone but, they pick on the Hornworth. Anyway, the Hornworth grows so fast that it doesn't matter if they pick on it or not. Lol, they ate my Babytears in 2 days. I hate them for that:hihi:


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

> I have heard seaclear has good warranties, and they usually have someone by the phone if you want to call and verify everything is ok. I do believe they have a set amount of acceptable bowing built in. But only the manufacturer could be more specific on that!


Thanks about that. I'll probably call on monday. Im switching to glass as soon as i can find a 55 gallon thats in decent condition.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

> I have red and green Cabomba and love it. My goldies leave the cabomba alone but, they pick on the Hornworth. Anyway, the Hornworth grows so fast that it doesn't matter if they pick on it or not. Lol, they ate my Babytears in 2 days. I hate them for that


Ha, that is about how long my baby tears lasted! Doesn't help I'm using generic petco gravel. Takes almost a week for most plants to get a firm grip on its stones.

I did have some hornwort at some time, it was decimated like the wisteria. I tried planting it in another tank, and reintroducing it to no avail. Chomper would earn his namesake and rip the leaves right off.

I'm not too sad to see the cambomba go, as when they do snip at it, those little fan pieces end up spread all over the tank!



> Thanks about that. I'll probably call on monday. Im switching to glass as soon as i can find a 55 gallon thats in decent condition.


If I'm not mistaken, the last guy with a seaclear problem got a new tanked shipped to him at no cost, and they didn't even ask for the old tank back. (Just had to show evidence it was damaged). I don't know how long ago that was though, regardless, definitely call before buying. Would suck to dump money on another tank, just to find out you could have gotten one shipped to you for free!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Fourth week in April Update.










Lost the first house (2nd lien on the property, and bank refused offer even though it was the list price!), put a bid on a second...so no moving fish yet.

Tank is doing well. Grass on the right has now replaced the cambomba. I'm now trimming a massive clump of grass weekly. It's absurd how fast it grows!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Out of curiousity, have you tried crypts at any point in this tank?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey laura,

Nope! Closest thing to a crypt I tried would probably be the java fern. The big leafy plants don't seem to do so well in the tank, not because of the fish, but because of the algae just coats the leaves up. I might try a more leafy vegetation once I move to pressurized CO2, but all purchases (besides necessity) are on hold till all the house stuff is resolved!

The algae doesn't seem to effect the other plants, as their growth is fast enough to keep it at bay. Even if a few val blades get coated, the fish just pick it off, eat it, and a dozen more grow in it's place!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

May update!










Everybody in the tank doing well. I'm working on a time lapse video I'm hopefully going to post today, just to show the tank changing over the course of 3 months!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Here's a short time lapse. Basically the photo was taken every Saturday, from January, to May 1st.

Doh no embedding! Guess you guys will have to click the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3nbeYwCk5Y


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

Crossbow, I'm not far from Gaithersburg. What LFS other than Petco/Petsmart do you shop at? Nice Tank!!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

tuffgong,

I got primarily to 
http://www.tropicalfishworld.com/

off of 355, bit north of shady grove rd.


The other LFS is in rockville,
http://www.congressionalaquarium.com/


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## Chaos_Being (May 18, 2010)

Nice tank! How's it doing now?

I want to eventually start a tank similar in size and "tech" level (I like the 46 gal bowfronts, or perhaps a rectangular 40 or 55 gallon.) I too am planning on using just Excel + Seachem ferts, as I'm not quite ready to jump right into a CO2 setup. What is your dosing schedule/amounts?

I might have to steal your idea for the background of vals...I love how that looks!


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

How does the 20L look?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Chaos,
Thanks! Tank is doing great. Haven't taken photos in a couple weeks. Got lazy. I'll take an update sat or sun. Basically looks the same, except the Val's have really taken over the right side now.

My dosing schedule goes something like this. (1 cap = 1 cap full)

Sat (WC 40-50%) 1 cap flourish. 1 cap flourish excel.
Sun. 1 cap full seachem phosphorous. 1 cap potassium. 1/4 - 1/3 cap excel
(ran out of potassium, so using the potassium/iron dose of some other manufacturer now).
Mon. 1/4-1/3 cap excel
Tues. 1/4-1/3 cap excel (sometimes if I feel like it, some seachem trace)
Wed. 1 cap phosphorous, 1 cap potassium. 1/4-1/3 cap excel
Thur. 1/4 - 1/3 cap excel
Fri. 1/4 - 1/3 cap excel.
Sat. WC Repeat.

I used to dose nitrogen, but thats no longer necessary due to the goldfish. Probably won't need to dose phosphorous soon.

Caton,
I broke it down. We were preparing to move, so I gave away the moors, and plants, and put everything away.


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

The owner of my LFS has only one tank at home, and it's a goldfish tank. He was trying to get me to set one up. I'll have to tell him about this thread. Great tank, entertaining thread, def taggin along! Oh, and I love the blue substrate!


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## Chaos_Being (May 18, 2010)

Thanks! That gives me an idea of dosing for this size of tank. Although, I plan on shrimp and peaceful fish (something like Tetras) instead of Goldfish


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Very nice. Those vals really took off. How are they goldfish doing? Are the fins still in good shape?


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## Dara (Jul 3, 2003)

This is awesome. 
What plant do they prefer the most in your tank?


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## Chaos_Being (May 18, 2010)

Hmm, I'm wondering which LFS you got that piece of driftwood that you had shown back on page 2? I'd love to find a place nearby so I could actually look at some pieces before purchasing.


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## chilled_fire (Jun 4, 2010)

Considering the fact that goldfish eats almost any plant this tanks does look fantastic !


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## MlDukes (Nov 24, 2009)

Those Vals look amazezazing! roud: I opened your thread curious of what i would find and Im very pleased. My first "real" tank was a 46g bowfront (not rimless ) I originally kept 3 black moors and I loved them! 

That blue substrate really grew on me from page to page but im excited to see the Eco.

Peace


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Everyone! Sorry for the very belated delay in replies. All my free time was sucked up with searching for a new home, work, and then I took a vacation!

The good news. The fish are doing great! The plants are...surviving (see more info below).

The bad news. We still don't have a new home. We've been house shopping since march, and have been through four bids on homes, with none going through. (Always some problem). So tank is still pretty much unchanged.

Here's some tank photos before I begin discussing anything more!

May 28th, 2010









This was taken after I took the dissolving rock out of the aquarium. I noticed pieces of the rock were falling apart, and that the telescopic eye fish kept trying to dig in the main hole (in the rock). This worried me due to concerns of them possibly damaging their eyes. I replaced the rocks with some smooth river stones to create the same water deflection in the center of the aquarium. 


July 20th, 2010









You can see quite a few changes here. Let me explain. We went for a 10 day vacation in mid june. During that time, the fish were fed, but there was no dosing occurring (neither excel nor fertilizers), as I didn't want to confuse my friend with the daily regime. Instead I dropped the light time from 10 hours to 6.

Upon returning, the tank was very clean, with the rotela showing a burst of growth. I decided to keep the light cycle going, but stop with excel dosing and only dose one fertz per week.

Well here we are a few weeks later, and the Val's aren't doing too hot. They are surviving, but no longer growing and spreading like weeds. I'm currently adapting the schedule to meet a happy middle ground.

Well that is the tank back up to date. Now for some fish growth! The fish are healthy and happy, and showing great growth. Chomper is gigantic now!

Here are some glamor shots!

Ember









Fin









Koi









Chomper









and the fleet! (for fish to fish comparison)









Thanks for reading! I'll get to everyone's questions tomorrow!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

GL with your continuing house hunt!

If the market there is like it is here, it's pretty competitive... and most sellers that do their homework and know the comps are getting pretty much what they ask, if not above asking.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

*londonloco,*
Thanks! My gf thinks it's hilarious how those opposed to the blue substrate start to like it over time. I did have a pair of small moors in a tank with eco complete, and it was more difficult to see the moors. I might look into mixing something in with the eco to try and give it a bit more color to help chomper stand out a bit more.

*Chaos_Being: * That dosing regime is setup for 10 hours of 96 watt AH supply light. I actually think its a bit too much light, as I generally have to clean the sides of the tank weekly. I've since reduce the light time to 6 hours and I'm readjusting the dosing schedule to compensate.

Here is the LFS I got the driftwood from. It's a small LFS, but nice people.
http://www.tropicalfishworld.com/

I also go to this LFS in rockville, which is much larger, and has a larger selection. Any good driftwood they get is gone in days though.
http://www.congressionalaquarium.com/


*sewingalot:* Ya..I think on average there is probably half a dozen new shoots each week, if not more. The goldfish tend to eat the small vals, but they still spread! Chompers fin still gets a mark from time to time. I think it happens when he does a crazy twist around at the substrate level. He's gotten very big, so hopefully once we get a new place, and the 125 (or 135), he'll fit a bit better. From the goldfish forums, they tend to recommend a 18-20 inch wide tank for full adults, the bowfront is only 18 inches wide at the center, so we definitely need a new tank in the future. At least it's 4 fish now, instead of 5, which helps a bit.

*Dara: * They eat everything. They picked the rotela leaves completely off, so I had to cut the rotela back down, to get it started growing again. On the vals, they generally eat the small shoots, and any roots that pop out of the substrate. The full grown plants they generally leave alone. I've tried pretty much every plant in that tank now. They ate everything. They even tore up full sized amazon sword leaves. They especially love duckweed and baby tears..those didn't even last a day.

*Chilled_fire:* Thanks! It's come a long way!

*MlDukes:* Ya I'm quite happy with the val's. Though I have to trim them every week (unless I'm on a reduced regime), the goldfish prune them, eliminating any weak or dying plants, makes it pretty easy to take care of.

*lauraleellbp:* Ya. Houses are definitely near comps..until a bunch sell under and drive all the comps down. Our problem has been with the sellers banks. There is always some issue. And when there isn't an issue, we get "UNDER" bid by a cash sale, who swoops in, and snags the house for 20-30k less then we bid...but pay in cash. Very frustrating .


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

*46 Bowfront, Goldfish Grazing Project (8/25/10 Update)*

Hey Guys,

I've been lazy with taking photos. Here is the latest!










Val's in full recovery. Nice and green again, normal grass lost/week. (More grass growing then eaten or pulled out by fish).

Other plants however, did not recover. The rotella would be growing fine, covered in tiny buds, which the fish would decimate every day. I eventually yanked them out because they looked so sad. If they recover I'll replant back into the tank, otherwise, this is now going to be a Val only tank. The val's are definitely hardy enough to handle everything that gets thrown at them, including chompers constant attacks.


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## Chaos_Being (May 18, 2010)

I'm glad to see that the tank is still doing well (although simplified in terms of plants.) Good luck with the house search!


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## Bill-87 (Aug 30, 2010)

Just sat and read the 8 pages, fantastic, I love it. I even loved the blue from the start, thought it brought out some of the colours on the Fish really well. I liked the little white stones that were there also.

I bought two Goldfish yesterday, two Comet's(Levi & Perry), but should probably have looked more into them before buying as I never realised how big they could get. There Tank is pretty small but I am going to get myself a 55 Gallon Tank in the next week or so with Pump etc. Is there anything you would suggest I read prior to setting up the Tank etc?


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Bill,

Thanks! I took the white stones out because they were continuously being covered by algae....AND the goldfish would bury them. Goldfish seem to be their own construction crews. They move gravel around the tank where ever they want, uproot plants, etc. They usually tear out at least 1-2 val bunches a week, no matter how they're held down.

My only suggestion for running a goldfish tank would be to get filtration in excess. I'm currently running an Rena XP3, which is rated for 175 gallons...in my 46 gallon.

I clean it about once a month. 1 Goldfish is probably equivalent to roughly 30-50 tetra's in terms of poop production. 

I started out my filtration (for 5 fish) with an Aquaclear 70. Then I added an Aquaclear 55...then I finally went to the XP3, cause it was annoying as heck to handle cleaning two aquaclears every two weeks.


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## cheddar254 (Aug 25, 2010)

Awesome tank crossbow! Read the whole thread before but didnt comment afterwards  Just had to comment this time to praise you on your awesome tank, goldfish, valls and Blue gravel  Any updates on the house yet? and I would love to see how the tank looks now, Oh and just a suggestion why dont you let the valls grow long? looks a bit unnatural when they're cut so straight. Oh and P.S that picture of Showy picture of Fin on this page ( http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...5-46-bowfront-goldfish-grazing-project-6.html ) is now my background 

Keep on doing what you doing


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Cheddar! Thanks for your comments!

Great news. We finally got a house! And it's a dream house! Most of the places we were looking at were 1300 sq feet...we ended up getting a monster sized 2000 sq foot end unit townhome in a great location. Just took 7 months of looking at homes every single day, with 3 failed bids, 1 awful situation, and lots of bank bs.

In the end it all worked out though, and we are in the process of moving to our new permanent home. (At least for 10-15 years). 

The fish are doing great. The val's are doing great. I missed cleaning the tank this week, so I won't post any photos just yet. But everyone is alive and kicking, and the val's are hanging in there.

I have started prepping for the fish move. I'm setting up a bare 20 gallon long tank, with a heater and filter setup at the house. 50% of the water will be from the fishes own tank, the rest treated and ready. I'm going to put 2 fish in each 5 gallon painters bucket, with a battery powered air hose, and transport them to the 20L in the new home. Then I'll break down the 46, and move it over, while running the XP3 in a 5G bucket to keep all the bacteria happy.

If anyone has any tips or comments on moving fish, they'd be appreciated. But as of now, that's my main plan. The 20L tank should keep the 4 fish content for at least a few days, giving me some needed time to figure out the new tank setup/placement.

I don't know if I'm going to change out the blue gravel. I might just mix in the eco-complete and get a combo blue/black mix, with some minerals for the plants inter-dispersed. This will cut down on the break down time, and I won't need to mess with the plant roots as much, making the transisition easier.

As to your questions. I cut the val's because they end up growing right into the XP3 outlet, and bending over, messing with the tank flow. Also if I don't cut them, they take over the entire top of the tank. (As seen in some of the other photos). They grow extraordinarily fast. I didn't even dose any excel for the past 2 weeks and they've grown about 6 inches.

Glad you like the photos, it is crazy hard to get a good one. I think I get one good photo for 50 bad ones!


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## paybackranch (Jan 5, 2010)

*Question about the SeaClear cut-outs on top*

First off, I loved this thread and the conversations. I have several planted tanks and have been looking at the 46 Bowfront by SeaClear myself. I was hesitant because of the small openings as I am a very manic planter / cleaner. Do you find this tank hard to keep clean inside (algae)? Has anyone changed the size of the openings? I do think that it is a stunning tank!


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey Payback,

I find that the openings do limit your ability to clean somewhat (unless you have long arms), and also limit the size of the items you can place in the tank. I have an awesome piece of driftwood that won't fit no matter how i turn it.

As such, I still enjoy the tank, and don't find the ability to clean "too" limiting.

We finally finished moving, and everyone survived, so will get some photos up after I get a chance to clean the tank this coming weekend.

Goldfish have gotten gigantic....going to need a new tank soon....


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## Mellyn (Jul 20, 2005)

Can't wait to see new pictures! I love the goldfish, they're so cute and have great personalities.


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## paybackranch (Jan 5, 2010)

*Another question.. this time about the hood / enclosure for the lights*

Did you get the 'canopy' or hood from ahsupply? Was it part of the lighting retro-fit kit that you got? 

I am looking to do something similar, but have found no 'commercially produced' canopies for bowfront tanks. Fishtanksdirect has complete sets, but I would rather use the stand that Petsmart is using on their 46 gallon glass tank (I have a matching one on my 28 gallon bowfront--its a girl thing, I guess), but there are no enclosed canopies sold singly, that I have found. I am a DIY kind of person, so if I can't find it, I may build something to keep the light from sneaking out between the tank and light fixture. I am also getting a clear back so I can change background colors. My 28 gallon bowfront has a mirror back and that is awesome.

Your goldfish are SO beautiful.....:thumbsup:


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

paybackranch,

Hey! Yes I got the canopy from ahsupply. I don't know if they make them anymore, at the time it was a perfect size for the tank. Even better, the plastic cover that fits with the original aquaclear light canopy, perfectly fits under the ahsupply hood, thus preventing splashes, and escapes! 

I'll try to get some photos soon. The Val's took a beating, so the tank isn't exactly perfect right now....well that hasn't stopped me before, I might as well take some shots .


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## urples (Nov 15, 2010)

dang, that's a pretty sweet tank. planning to start a tank soon, hopefully my plants grow like yours.


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## paybackranch (Jan 5, 2010)

Did you buy it prebuilt from AH Supply or did you build it with their specs? They have a DIY canopy page. Thanks....


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

I bought it pre-built from Ahsupply. I should point out, their 96 watt kit is a bit too powerful for the 46 gallon. It's really powerful!


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## buritne (Oct 6, 2010)

My goldfish always get ick everytime i add another one, eventually i switched to tropical, does your goldfish ever get ick?


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## paybackranch (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanks....I will contact them when the tank gets closer to being put together. I am planning a move in the next 4 weeks, so the tank is in an assembly mode right now. The move is cross country, so sometime after the first of the year I will put it together. I really enjoyed the photos of your tank! I have the same type of Vals....grow across the top and down of my 28 gallon bowfront also like yours. Weekly trimming. I may replace them with something shorter, although I love the lush look of them.


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

buritne,

The only time I've had any ick issues, was when there was a large amount of fish stress. This was due in part to insufficient filtration for the tank in question. Goldfish are incredibly hardy, but they require an excessive amount of filtration, and an excessive amount of water volume to live healthy lives. They also require temperature stability, and are not cold water fish, as many people believe. Any significant amount of stress will usually cause an ick outbreak.

Generally you want roughly 10-20 gallons per goldfish in terms of water volume, and you want an utterly obscene amount of filtration. I run a Rena XP3 on my 46 gallon bowfront. (It's rated for 175 gallons). Goldfish are the aquarium equivilant of a cow. They can and will eat almost nonstop, and produce what seems like an endless amount of waste. (Leading cause of death to goldifsh, besides insufficient filtration, is overeating) Most of the reasons you can't have goldfish with many other fish types isn't that they wouldn't get along...it's that the other fish can't handle the pollution the goldfish make!

As for temperature, I run it at 74F with one of those 200 watt inline hydror's. Though goldfish are commonly thought to be cold water fish, they actually thrive in warmer temperatures. They can "tolerate" cold temperatures, but prefer warmer ones. Bottom of tank siphon and roughly 40-50% water change weekly. Once a month I break down the XP3 and rinse out the sponges, and replace the pre-filter if needed.

It's funny because goldfish are usually rated as "easy" fish to take care of...when in reality, they're quite difficult to take care of properly. With the proper setup and care, most goldfish will outlive the family cat or dog! (Keep this in mind when choosing the type of fish to take care of! Goldfish can live 20+ years!!!)

I eventually plan to move the goldfish to a larger tank, as they are getting gigantic now. Chomper is as big as my hand!

paybackranch,
Having just moved, I understand your pain. The Val's are just now starting to come back. I lost roughly 50% of them in the move. Was worried for a bit, but then I remembered it usually takes about 2 weeks or so for the plants to get out of their shock phase and back into growing bonkers.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

*Vals and....*

Hey Crossbow. I am currently planting a goldfish tank and was wondering if you could suggest a plant which might work alongside my vals. I have seen a number of stoies like yours where only the Vals ended up surviving the goldfish longterm. I would really like to have a stem plant that looks kind of like cabomba to compliment the look of the vals. I want a fast grower. Nitrate consumption is a must. Currently, I am considering Asian Ambulia, Cabomba, and Water Violet.


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

If you get lucky your goldfish might not eat hornwort, and it looks similar to cabomba. My goldfish ignores it, but other people say it gets eaten. Depending on your lighting, it might grow too fast, but it's nice to have something that grows quickly in a low-light tank.


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