# 10 ft. Long Stand, Double Tank Advice



## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

Okay, I'm going to be the first to raise this point. Besides the structural integrity of the stand; have you first considered the structural soundness of the floor and wall in the room where you are planning to place this?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

This sounds like a killer idea. Would love to see a Journal on this.

I second the "check the floor first" comment.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

You could have a metal frame jigged up just the way you want it. It may be more expensive where you live. However, I found that local welding schools are always a good place to get projects done for fairly inexpensive. Sheet metal fab shops are going to be your best bet. The sheet fab shops are more expensive but the work will be tailored to your needs.


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## EcoGeek (May 29, 2007)

*How much work do you want to do?*

I am a woodworker, so I have made use of this site in the past. If you take the time to do your weight calculations this can be useful. I realize it is designed for shelving, but you can still use it to help determine what you'll need to support this beast. 

It is called "The Sagulator." 

http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm


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## PDX-PLT (Feb 14, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> Are 4x4s overkill for the horizontal braces for this or would bigger be better?


 For a ten foot span with a total of 225 gallons of water on them? A pair of 4x4's is way, way underkill.

You're moving into the territory where just slapping things together with framing lumber, without doing the engineering calculations, is asking for trouble. 'would re-think this, and support the beams every couple of feet or so, or do the engineering work so you know exactly what's going to happen.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

A steel rack welded up would be Ideal I think, but then again they look very industrial not so nice looking.


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## saint27 (Apr 27, 2006)

I would use at least two 2x6 nailed together for horizontal members. Vertical columns at the quarter spans. With cross bracing at ever corner. Then sheeted with 3/4" plywood. If I was doing it I would use two 2x8's nailed together. I will also third the checking of the floor for capacity. I would be more likely to say if it is not on a concrete slab then don't do it.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Orlando said:


> You could have a metal frame jigged up just the way you want it. It may be more expensive where you live. However, I found that local welding schools are always a good place to get projects done for fairly inexpensive.


I second this advice as I took welding in a vocational school myself and we took in all kinds of odd jobs for cheap.

You could always skin the steel skeleton with whatever type woodwork you desired by having some mounting holes predrilled into the steel frame.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

jinx© said:


> I second this advice as I took welding in a vocational school myself and we took in all kinds of odd jobs for cheap.
> 
> You could always skin the steel skeleton with whatever type woodwork you desired by having some mounting holes predrilled into the steel frame.



Thats a good idea with the skin work..


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

Save money and increase horizontal clearance by building the stand out of 2x4s and 3/4" plywood as the outside finish. At first, 225g volume and a 10' span seems a lot, but try to break a 2x4 with the narrow side up. You only need to support the tanks at the corners. In your case, be sure to incorporate vertical supports at the sides and at 5'/4' where the two tanks meet. 
I would use 6' long 2x4 and stager them on top and bottom, front and back.

Go to a pet store and check out their stands, you'll notice they are made out of 1x1" and plywood, with plywood used to support the weight. 
I have seen 500g stands made of acrylic only, instead of plywood like mentioned above.
I had a 225g setup made by Tennecor and the stand was made out of 3/4" MDF boards, no hoirizontal beams. It was a solid built box with open back and a vertical support in the center.

Just my opinion.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

A couple of things. First and foremost, THANK YOU for your help. I greatly appreciate it, more than you know. I will respond to individual posts, but wanted to throw out a few things.

The tanks are in the room now, just on opposite walls along with another 55, a 20, and 15 all of which are a concrete slab.

I am not going to span the full 10' without bracing. In fact I am taking this as really two stands stuck together. I would just really like to be able to only have one horizontal brace on the 6' and none on the four (except the corner of the tank). So I will SketchUp something together tonight to show what I mean.

I will post later tonight or in the morning with everything. Thanks!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

OK, not my best, but you get the idea of what I was looking to do. Here is the tanks butted up against one another.











Here is another with some more info on the pieces.









Is this overkill? Should I make this all one stand like this?










With the design above, I am REALLY concerned about finding straight wood. What do you all think?

Sorry that the text is so small, I can export it larger but did not want to cause issues or anything. Thanks again for all the help.

BTW, the gap between the two tanks would be covered with a thin piece of molding. Depending on what I decide, I will throw the "skin" on them with the hood as well.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Nice illustrations. :thumbsup:

Here's a great link for DIY Stand Specs that I had forgot I had saved in favorites earlier. It may help give you some more info.

One advantage I can think of by doing the 2 stands butted against each other is that should you ever move, change your mind, sell the tanks etc., you could always use them seperately.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Orlando said:


> You could have a metal frame jigged up just the way you want it. It may be more expensive where you live. However, I found that local welding schools are always a good place to get projects done for fairly inexpensive. Sheet metal fab shops are going to be your best bet. The sheet fab shops are more expensive but the work will be tailored to your needs.


Awesome idea, but I just get scared about a "project" that makes my tanks fall to the floor in pieces. I will check at the local welding school.



EcoGeek said:


> I am a woodworker, so I have made use of this site in the past. If you take the time to do your weight calculations this can be useful. I realize it is designed for shelving, but you can still use it to help determine what you'll need to support this beast.
> 
> It is called "The Sagulator."
> 
> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm


Awesome link, I will definitely keep this one around. Thank you.



User Name said:


> Save money and increase horizontal clearance by building the stand out of 2x4s and 3/4" plywood as the outside finish. At first, 225g volume and a 10' span seems a lot, but try to break a 2x4 with the narrow side up. You only need to support the tanks at the corners. In your case, be sure to incorporate vertical supports at the sides and at 5'/4' where the two tanks meet.
> I would use 6' long 2x4 and stager them on top and bottom, front and back.
> 
> Go to a pet store and check out their stands, you'll notice they are made out of 1x1" and plywood, with plywood used to support the weight.
> ...


My 135 stand scares me. It is 2x4s on top of what look like 1x6s. Do not know how the thing supports the weight. But I agree, that if those can hold, I think I will do ok. Thanks!



jinx© said:


> Nice illustrations. :thumbsup:
> 
> Here's a great link for DIY Stand Specs that I had forgot I had saved in favorites earlier. It may help give you some more info.
> 
> One advantage I can think of by doing the 2 stands butted against each other is that should you ever move, change your mind, sell the tanks etc., you could always use them seperately.


Love the fish and tips site, totally awesome stands and even gives you skinning ideas. Thanks for your help and the idea about the "modular" approach. I think I may have made up my mind....well maybe.

Thanks all, I am going to do some more SketchUp to see what type of skin would look best and post something tomorrow maybe. I think butting the stands up and then placing some molding could hide the seam. Hmm...the wheels are turning, don't mind the smoke!


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

This stand is for a glass 180g (6x2x2). No 4x4s, only four 2x4s in front and 2 in the rear. 
If you like, I can email you more pics, the stand is still in the garage.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

One more example.
Tank size 4x2x2.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

User Name said:


> This stand is for a glass 180g (6x2x2). No 4x4s, only four 2x4s in front and 2 in the rear.
> If you like, I can email you more pics, the stand is still in the garage.


It is stands like that that scare the hell out of me. I just do not see how they can hold the weight. If you could PM me some more pictures, specifically of how you do the corners and where the vertical members intersect, that would be awesome.



User Name said:


> One more example.
> Tank size 4x2x2.


That is a really nice stand. Is that tongue and groove board for the facing or something else? Thanks again for showing these examples.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

I agree noob...That first stand type always worries me as well, especially when they're used for a large tank.

There's just no real lateral strength in such designs IMO. 
They work no doubt, I just wouldnt pick one myself.

You can stack a house of playing cards to hold quite a bit of weight as well, but try tapping it from the side when you're done.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> It is stands like that that scare the hell out of me. I just do not see how they can hold the weight. If you could PM me some more pictures, specifically of how you do the corners and where the vertical members intersect, that would be awesome.


I hear you noob and jinx. 
The stand for 180 was built by a very reputable cabinet manufacturer. They’ve been building aquarium stands for many years and I never heard of any problems.
You’ll get a better understanding of the structure when you actually build your own stand. I had to build stands for 150 and 120, not having the slightest idea about stand construction; I first wanted to go with 4x4 and 2x6 for vertical support. I changed my design after searching online and talking to some cabinet makers. Both stands stood up to the weight but were not as sturdy as I wanted them to be; mainly because they were not “skinned”.

I will send you pics this week, PM me if you don’t get them by Sunday. 

Another example:


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

User_Name (dig your name too!) that is what I want to do in the corners with my 4x4s as well. Did you just do that with a table saw?


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> User_Name (dig your name too!) that is what I want to do in the corners with my 4x4s as well. Did you just do that with a table saw?


That is not my stand, found it on another forum. 
Solid construction for sure, you will pay little extra for the 4x4s compared to 2x4, but the difference may be minimal. 

I think this is the design for you.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

*Pocket Hole Jig*

This a a great tool used by woodworkers.
I have this one: http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-RKTBIT-R...f=sr_1_21?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1204180314&sr=1-21
but there are others to choose from, just search google.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

Idea for a metal stand an canopy.
Again, not mine. (I wish it were)


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

That person MUST have a welder to do something like that. Look at the ROOM in that stand!! You know I could possibly fit my sump AND my aquarium supplies in there. I gotta start calling around to see who could build me one!

Awhile ago a friend told me that I should just go get the metal and bolt the pieces together. Thoughts on that?

Also, you think that is a 8' tank? Single center brace, oh that would be great. Where did you find those pictures?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I used a Kreg Jig in building the stand for my 75 gallon, it's a great tool. I cheaped out and bought the single version, though.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Did you use 2x4s for your setup?


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

indiboi said:


> I cheaped out and bought the single version, though.


Last project, I used the double to make single holes. If you want to save money go with the single, works just as good. 
I've used mine on two project in two years time.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

_That person MUST have a welder to do something like that. Look at the ROOM in that stand!! You know I could possibly fit my sump AND my aquarium supplies in there. I gotta start calling around to see who could build me one!​_I wasn't sure if you wanted room for sump and such. That's why I recommend staying away from larger size pieces of wood than necessary.
_
Awhile ago a friend told me that I should just go get the metal and bolt the pieces together. Thoughts on that?​_No experience, no opinion. If he knows what he's talking about, then I would trust him. Add plywood and it should be solid.

_Also, you think that is a 8' tank? Single center brace, oh that would be great. Where did you find those pictures?​_Check out reef forums for plans: reefcentral.com, reeffrontiers.com I used to be reefer but family got in the way. My friend posted that design as an idea for his 8' 370g tank. Not sure what size is the one posted.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

OK, here is something interesting to check out. Make sure your drool doesn't drip on the keyboard.  
Not mine.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=734279

Link to RC Large Reef Tanks: http://reefcentral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=252


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> Did you use 2x4s for your setup?


Yes, I used 2x4's and then "skinned" it with oak and 1/4" oak plywood. Here's an example of one of the pocket screw applications. The pocket screws are on the outside, but the pocket is in the vertical support and connects to the horizontal member, while screws also go through the horizontal member into the front to back middle support.










This photo shows some of the overall construction, including my triple 2x4 corners. The over-construction of the corners should, I believe, greatly lessen any twisting potential, whereas the central downward supports are more limited in the strength side to side.

I don't know if any of that is actually helpful for this particular stand, but there it is anyway. 

FWIW, If I were to buy the Kreg Jig again, I'd have bought the 2 hole version. Clamping the 1 hole version in place was always a bit too tricky for my tastes. It was great for joining the mitered frames of my stand doors though.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

Here's a link to a template that's based on actual engineering calculations and has been used by a number of people successfully.

If you build two of those or modify the design into a double-wide it will be plenty strong enough to support your tanks. The design doesn't appear to resist twisting very well though, which is why it should be skinned in plywood. Virtually any thickness of plywood would be sufficient, even the very thinnest.

If you read through that thread you'll see that a number of people ask about 4x4s and are repeatedly told that it's a bad idea. For vertical members they're just not necessary, and for horizontal members a 2x6 will give you more strength anyway. Worse, they're apparently prone to warping, dunno why. If you follow those plans and use two perpendicular 2x4s at each corner and attach them at a couple of points they'll never warp.

I built something based on those plans, but it's only for a 10g tank, so I used the scrap I had in the barn which happened to be 1x4. I used glue and screws instead of clamping, and the damn thing is strong enough I could jump up and down on it all day and not break it.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Oh, wow, that template actually shows how I constructed my stand! I'd never seen it before. The only difference is that I have the purple members in the center also, in addition to a center brace across the bottom like the top. The top & bottom of my stand is sheathed in 3/4" outdoor ply. The center brace at the bottom helps keep any spilled water on the "wet side" (shown in the photo above) too.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

indiboi said:


> Oh, wow, that template actually shows how I constructed my stand! I'd never seen it before. The only difference is that I have the purple members in the center also, in addition to a center brace across the bottom like the top.


Yeah man, that's why I linked to it, to show how little is really necessary. Even that design is significantly stronger than commercial stands, and massively stronger if you add a skin. Most people overbuild, IMO. Why build something heavy, ponderous, and expensive when you could build something light, engineered, and efficient? Maybe I've just helped too many of my friends move recently...


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Hehe, that was kind of exciting, to see that someone else had the same stand plan and made a nice color coded diagram. 

While apparently not necessary, the center vertical supports gave me something to attach my thin bookmatched veneer plywood to. The 3/4" stuff had horrible rotary cut veneer, in addition to being twice as expensive and 3X heavier.

My stand is still obnoxiously heavy, but probably no more than the aquarium itself (empty of course, lol).


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Great linkage swylie!

That's a well done thread with an easy to understand diagram & explanantions.


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## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

I built my 180 gal stand made out of 2x4's and angle braces and it is study and very strong. It works great! Metal stand is great if you know to wield. Here are a couple pictures of the stand and hood.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

WTG- awesome job!


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

You can bolt steel or aluminum together and it will be just fine, you should design the stand so that your joints, rather wood or metal are loaded in compression rather than shear. In simple english that means that the weight of the tank pushes the joints together rather than trying to rip them apart. Fasteners should serve only to hold things together when you're moving it around and keep pieces from slipping off of each other. That's the idea anyway, some times there are situations where it's just not possible, I've found nuts and bolts to be remarkably strong, the best would be socket head cap screws (google knows what they look like if you don't) a 1/4-20 SHCS is rated for minimum 5730 pounds tensile strength, that's a lot of water on one bolt. Stay away from stainless fasteners, I know they look nice and it sounds like a good idea for a something intended to be used near water but they are a bad idea. Stainless fasteners are usually not graded and not rated for structural applications, many "stainless" fastners will rust as well.

Drywall or deck screws are not very strong, if you've got to use them make sure they are just holding things together, not being loaded in shear or tension.

I've heard that 2x4's are less likely to warp and twist than 4x4s if you must use 4x4s consider a pair of 2x4s side by side instead, or better yet use a 2x6, it will be much stronger than a 4x4.

Wood has grain, you have to take that into consideration when designing and building a stand, end grain is not very good for holding fasteners, end grain is not good for gluing, wood will split in the direction of the grain, wood swells more across the grain than along the length (a 2x4 will swell more in width than in length). Plywood adresses some of these issues by combining several layers of wood with the grain running in different directions, plywood does not hold fasteners well when driven into the edge, it may be worse than trying to drive fasteners into the end grain of solid wood. A superior design uses both plywood and solid wood strategically to take advantages of the benefits of each.

People like to claim they have over engineered their stand design when in fact they haven't engineered a thing, they just built something heavy, expensive and unlikely to break because of the amount of material in the stand. An engineered stand looks a lot like what some people are uncomfortable with. Good construction, quality materials and a sound design will hold a tremendous amount of weight.

Any guesses how thick the shaft of a screwdriver needs to be to resist breaking under the force of a human wrist turning a screw? It's something like the diameter of a thin coat hanger, obviously they are made to withstand abuse like being used as a pry bar, a chisel, a hammer, a lawn dart, or whatever uses people can come up with. This is a case of overengineering, because the tool has a potential for uses aside from the intended use it was designed to be much stronger than it needs to be, I can't think of many ways a tank stand could be misused, overengineering is really not necessary.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

The stands I'm uncomfortable with are the ones that may very well be engineered to hold weight and sell to the masses but have very little lateral strength whatsoever. (The knock-down stands quickly come to mind)

The one stand pictured earlier that I commented on as causing me concern may be engineered and work fine for holding weight, but once you factor in possible unlevel floors and bumps from the side by adults or children it's pretty much the same as using an underengineered screwdriver as a prybar IMO. 
There's just nothing there to give it much lateral strength if it's ever needed.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

jinx© said:


> The stands I'm uncomfortable with are the ones that may very well be engineered to hold weight and sell to the masses but have very little lateral strength whatsoever. (The knock-down stands quickly come to mind)
> 
> The one stand pictured earlier that I commented on as causing me concern may be engineered and work fine for holding weight, but once you factor in possible unlevel floors and bumps from the side by adults or children it's pretty much the same as using an underengineered screwdriver as a prybar IMO.
> There's just nothing there to give it much lateral strength if it's ever needed.


Such stands could be easily corrected though. I'm not an engineer and I haven't run the numbers, so don't take my word for it though. This is just my opinion. If those stands had braces glued into the corners they'd have more than enough lateral strength. I'm thinking of something like triangles cut out of 3/4" plywood or 2x6 or something. A 5.5" per side wedge should do it, right? Finishing the cabinet with a skin would work too.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

swylie said:


> Such stands could be easily corrected though. I'm not an engineer and I haven't run the numbers, so don't take my word for it though. This is just my opinion. If those stands had braces glued into the corners they'd have more than enough lateral strength. I'm thinking of something like triangles cut out of 3/4" plywood or 2x6 or something. A 5.5" per side wedge should do it, right? Finishing the cabinet with a skin would work too.


I completely agree.

Such stands could easily be beefed up by skinning and/or framing to add lateral support, but seeing that we're talking building stands I'd be more inclined to build something better to begin with like the example shown in your link.


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

I totally agree that this stand looks underbuilt for the purpose, I'd have framed the vertical corners with 2x4s and either used a few triangle gussets or a diagonal 2x4 across the back. From the picture I'm not sure the cabinet is finished yet, as it is shown it's not a very good representation of a well engineered stand.

A good engineer understands that while a design may be strong enough on paper consumers demand a certain look or feel, extra reinforcements while often unnecessary are often added to make a product look more industrial, or give a sense of quality. As an example I worked with a folding table manufacturer as part of my senior project, the company we worked with uses a small triangle shaped bracket at the joint on one of the legs. They straight up told us that the triangle bracket was not structural at all, in fact the hole required to attach the bracket reduced the overall strength slightly, but it was needed to satisfy customers who thought the table didn't look "strong" without it. In this example the engineer added a piece of material that was tastefully sculpted to give the illusion of strength without adding unnecessary weight or cost to the product. The addition was made after an engineering analysis and testing, not an off the cuff attempt to solve a hypothetical problem.

I understand that carpenters are not engineers, I understand that framers are not engineers, I understand that most people who own a keyboard are not engineers, which is why I don't understand where people who aren't engineers get the idea that they are qualified to make an engineering assessment of a product based on a feeling. Would it surprise anyone if a stand that seemed flimsy when the tank was not filled with water could be very rigid when loaded with nearly a ton of water? It wouldn't surprise me.


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

I'm not an engineer for sure but I can almost promise I could walk up to that example stand (unless it has framing thats unable to be seen from the given photo), mainstream knock-down stands as well as many I've seen built and with one kick collapse them from the side with little effort. Filled or unfilled.

They will work, but if you own your home and are going to build a stand for a large tank why even argue the point of building/overbuilding for safety and peace of mind?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

So here is my new design, the one for the 135 is just 2 feet longer. It is based on the template swylie sent in the link.










The thing I like about these stands is that there is no center, vertical brace for the 135. Although scary, after reading through the thread I think it will be OK. Thoughts?

Once again, if you did not see swylie's post, here is the link again to Reef Central:

Reef Central DIY Stands. I need to hang out in the reef forums more often!


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

Showed you examples of some good stand designs.
Here is an example of a bad one. Do you see the problem?
Solution? Add 3/4" plywood under the tank, to cover the entire top between the 2x6s do disperse the weight to the vertical 4x4s.
He's filling it with water today, I'll keep you posted. I'm sure it will hold but for how long.

Again, not my tank. 
Posting opion based on other's opinions.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

more...


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Oh geez. That's pretty much the sort of design that was most common when I designed mine. All that shearing weight put on the screws holding it together is crazy. ...in addition to the obvious lack of lateral stability that sheathing it would bring. The mitered corners take the cake for bad joints... it's the worst that can be. The builder might think that stand is all beefy and stable, but it's really more like a house of cards with a big ol' tank of water on top.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Has someone told him of the risks? Or is he just going to be sheathing the tank later? Wow, and I thought I made bad designs.

Also, I have looked around my house at some of the "weathered" wood that is around here because we have a lot of it. Problem is that it is a little too old so I will need to buy more. I am hoping some of them are open on Sundays so I can take a look.

While we are on the subject of stands, what about doors?


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

Do what you want when you build your stands, make it out of solid concrete if it makes you sleep better at night. I suggest you stay away from automobiles and airplanes though if you think that a conservative safety factor isn't enough.

Many experienced woodworkers will recommend you purchase doors, unless they are very simple it's difficult to get professional results unless you have very expensive professional equipment. There are plenty of places that sell standard and custom cabinet doors, I've seen prices for a door ~12"x18" in the neighborhood of $30 for mid grade, common hardwood, which isn't too unreasonable, lumber alone purchased at retail would account for about half that price.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> So here is my new design, the one for the 135 is just 2 feet longer. It is based on the template swylie sent in the link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


intermediate_noob -

I have built 2 stands similar to the design that you posted. One was for a 125 and the other was for a 110 (high). I didn't use the 2 X 6 pieces as you did, but rather two 2 X 4's doubled up on all joints. I didn't skin the stands, but I did add a shelf to the lower half of the stand that tied into my horizontal supports. The stands were rock solid after they were built both before the tanks were on them and after once they were filled with water.

I am seriously considering building a stand for a 75 gallon tank with a design similar to yours.

When and if I ever get around to making the stand, I will post construction pics for oppinions.

Edit: The one thing I would do differently from your drawing is to bring the inside 2 X 4s down all the way to the bottom braces (on the ground).


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Edit: The one thing I would do differently from your drawing is to bring the inside 2 X 4s down all the way to the bottom braces (on the ground).


Read that ReefCentral thread. It's long, but there are some really interesting bits. People bring up that idea a couple of times, and the designer replies that he recommends against it. Those inner 2x4s are only included as "screw strips" to make assembly easier, so they could be 1x2 and not change a thing as far as the design is concerned. I guess they add a bit of resistance to twisting as well. I don't remember why he recommends those pieces be shorter, but he does.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

swylie said:


> Read that ReefCentral thread. It's long, but there are some really interesting bits. People bring up that idea a couple of times, and the designer replies that he recommends against it. Those inner 2x4s are only included as "screw strips" to make assembly easier, so they could be 1x2 and not change a thing as far as the design is concerned. I guess they add a bit of resistance to twisting as well. I don't remember why he recommends those pieces be shorter, but he does.


The twist factor might very well be the reason. If you bring it all the way down as I stated, you would make it more difficult to allow the wood to settle in.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

kornphlake said:


> Do what you want when you build your stands, make it out of solid concrete if it makes you sleep better at night.


Reminds me of this stand: 
:icon_eek:


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> Has someone told him of the risks? Or is he just going to be sheathing the tank later? Wow, and I thought I made bad designs.


Hey Noob, hope all these great ideas come helpful when you start building your stand. 
Remember, the first stand you build, give it to your enemy, second to you friend and third keep for yourself.

Came as a surprise but he did listen and placed plywood under the tank.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

When it comes to doors, I did a mitered corner (with pocket screws) frame out of oak with a routed groove to hold a floating plywood panel. It was the easiest way I could think of to have results I'd be happy with.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

swylie said:


> I don't remember why he recommends those pieces be shorter, but he does.


If you raise or lower those 2x4s they begin to bear the load of the tank which the designer did not want. All the weight should be transfered to the floor throw the corners. I read that thread five times already trying to glean everything I could from it. Hope that helps.



indiboi said:


> When it comes to doors, I did a mitered corner (with pocket screws) frame out of oak with a routed groove to hold a floating plywood panel. It was the easiest way I could think of to have results I'd be happy with.


I would really like to do something like that but I do not have the tools to have a floating panel. A friend who does have the tools also suggested gluing multiple boards together and then shaping them to resist warping. 

A bigger question now is what and how big of doors for the 135. If I only go for two doors, those are close to three feet long. Big and heavy door. I have also been kicking around the idea of drawers. I would LOVE to have one or two deep drawers to put medications and food in them. I have only ever seen one stand with a drawer and he had the switches for his lighting in there. It was great.

I think it is Sketchup Drawing time. Oh, and I have to organize some kind of fundraiser for this thing. I don't need a Magic 8 Ball to know this is going to be expensive. Thanks again for all your help everyone.

BTW User_Name, that cinder block and metal beam stand is AWESOME. I would love to do something like that. However if I mentioned the removal of carpet to my wife...something tells me I would not be happy with the result.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> So here is my new design, the one for the 135 is just 2 feet longer. It is based on the template swylie sent in the link.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


intermediate_noob - 

Thank you for explaining this design and posting the pic of the frame. I spent some time this week examining large stands (125 - 150 gallon), and I have to say that I don't like the integrity of the stock stands that are built for retail sales.

I have bought the majority of the materials needed to build a stand using your base design for a 75 gallon that I am going to be erecting soon. Thanks for sharing the information. Once I get it going, I'll send you a link to my build journal or post it in my signature.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Thanks Biscuit, I am glad that this thread helped someone besides me!

I am going to be getting the wood for mine this weekend in the hope of starting my build. Let's just hope it doesn't snow here! Hard to use powertools in the elements.

Keep us informed!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> So here is my new design, the one for the 135 is just 2 feet longer. It is based on the template swylie sent in the link.
> 
> The thing I like about these stands is that there is no center, vertical brace for the 135. Although scary, after reading through the thread I think it will be OK. Thoughts?
> 
> ...


IN - I read the reefer thread from start to finish, and it specifically states that if you use 2 X 6 for the top frame, you should be good. If you are leary, you could always go with 2 X 8 for top frame. A standard 135 is 72" and he specifically states that 2 X 6 should do the job. Just an FYI, I built my top frame out of 2 X 6's and I can easily see it working for a 135. (I tend to go overboard some times).

I am going to have two vertical braces that transfer the load from the top frame to the bottom frame in the middle span, but I am going to use oak and it is going to be part of the finished look. I am going to attach cabinet doors but I want them to have some space in between the doors. Thats where the center brace is gong to come into play. One of my design ideas is that I want to use cam locks on the cabinets to keep my kids out of the stand. To do this, I kind of need something in between the doors anyway.

This thread has truely inspired me. I am going to wire it up with a GFCI with multiple receptacles controled by multiple switches. I am also going to install a couple of lights inside the stand so I can see stuff that I am working on, spills, etc.

The only one that doesn't like this thread is my wife. She has been giving me dirty looks since I started buying materials and building the stand. Once its done though she'll be happy with the end result.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> This thread has truely inspired me. I am going to wire it up with a GFCI with multiple receptacles controled by multiple switches. I am also going to install a couple of lights inside the stand so I can see stuff that I am working on, spills, etc.
> 
> The only one that doesn't like this thread is my wife. She has been giving me dirty looks since I started buying materials and building the stand. Once its done though she'll be happy with the end result.


Well I am glad I inspired someone, not so glad that it has caused marital issues . This thread had the same affect in my house too!

Just and update to everyone. I purchased the wood, the Kreg pocket hole jig, and some screws yesterday. The screws are a total rip-off, but I found a 2000 pack online for 45 dollars and thinking about getting it. The wood cost me 29.50 from Home Depot (this is just for the 48" tank"). I ended up having them just cut down (3) 20' 2x4s and (1) 20' 2x6. It was much cheaper than the smaller pieces. The jig was 35 dollars. So running total is 29.50, 33, and 5 for the screws or around 70 dollars thus far. I will keep everyone updated on the progress.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> Well I am glad I inspired someone, not so glad that it has caused marital issues . This thread had the same affect in my house too!
> 
> Just and update to everyone. I purchased the wood, the Kreg pocket hole jig, and some screws yesterday. The screws are a total rip-off, but I found a 2000 pack online for 45 dollars and thinking about getting it. The wood cost me 29.50 from Home Depot (this is just for the 48" tank"). I ended up having them just cut down (3) 20' 2x4s and (1) 20' 2x6. It was much cheaper than the smaller pieces. The jig was 35 dollars. So running total is 29.50, 33, and 5 for the screws or around 70 dollars thus far. I will keep everyone updated on the progress.


Damn, thats not bad. I am up to about $185, but that includes some oak plywood for the skin and brass hardware for the exterior. I can easily see spending another $80 to $100 on all of the trim pieces that I plan on getting. Consider yourself ahead of the game.


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## plaakapong (Feb 28, 2008)

intermediate_noob said:


> I would really like to do something like that but I do not have the tools to have a floating panel. A friend who does have the tools also suggested gluing multiple boards together and then shaping them to resist warping.
> 
> A bigger question now is what and how big of doors for the 135. If I only go for two doors, those are close to three feet long. Big and heavy door.


Hi guys I'm new here and just happened onto this thread. Thought I'd throw in my 2cents. I've built and installed kitchens for years. Of course there are many ways to do things correctly, many opinions within the trades. Here's mine.
For floating panels 1/4 ply is the ticket. Also can use T&G paneling or wainscoting. Biscuits or splines will work better(than pocket screws) for putting your door frames together. You can run the frame stock on a table saw to get the groove for the panel. Or just make flat plywood(3/4) doors and edge them.
Overlay doors are MUCH easier than inset. Overlay-doors lay flat against the outside of the cabinet face. It's difficult, especially for non-woodworkers to get inset doors right. 
You're asking for trouble with big/wide doors. I try to keep cabinet doors under 20in and under 18 if possible. Big wide doors are always in the way when open and inevitably warp and twist even if made from plywood.
If you have time tune in to the Yankee workshop, Norm is always building something with similar methods.
Good luck!


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

4x4's are bad news.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

This is a nice thread with loads of good info for DIY'ers. I will stick it to the top for a while. :thumbsup:


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## plaakapong (Feb 28, 2008)

Why are 4x4s bad news? If they're crap wood with big knots maybe? You can use a nice piece of 4x4 and let the cross-members in and have the same effect, I think better if done properly, as "sistering" two 2x4s together. Easiest way would be to curf-cut the dado with a skilsaw and knock the waste out with a hammer & chisel. I'd also consider something like countersunk carriage bolts in place of drywall screws for fasteners. Like someone else said screws have very little shear strength.
2x4s or 2x6s alone are likely enough as is a properly built plywood box similar to a kitchen cabinet. The important part is to tie it all together so things remain intact and vertical. Sheathing being the easiest and best way.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

4x4's are seriously prone to warping and twisting--Thus pulling your stand appart.

2-2x4's glued and screwed would be much stronger and more likely to be true.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Thanks for the additional information on the doors, I am still undecided on how to go about building those. I was thinking of using a long door but have it "fold" much like a closet door would to be out of the way. Once again, I am still undecided.

I decided to go with 2x4s for the vertical members and 2x6s for the horizontal. I have the wood and am raring to go but other weekend and week night activities have postponed the build. However, I will surely keep you all posted on my progress. I am thinking in a week or two I will have something together.


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

Wasserpest said:


> This is a nice thread with loads of good info for DIY'ers. I will stick it to the top for a while. :thumbsup:


I agree, great idea. Let's add more value to the thread.
My buddies project:


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## plaakapong (Feb 28, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> 4x4's are seriously prone to warping and twisting--Thus pulling your stand appart.
> 
> 2-2x4's glued and screwed would be much stronger and more likely to be true.


Like I said, if you buy crap lumber at Lowes that's what you'll get. Not all 4x4s are created equal.


Nice one Username!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

plaakapong said:


> Like I said, if you buy crap lumber at Lowes that's what you'll get. Not all 4x4s are created equal.
> 
> 
> Nice one Username!



I think you can use 4 X 4s, but you get more support area by using two 2 X 4s to distribute the load from the top frame to the lower frame. If you use a 4 x 4, you would need to notch it so that it sits in the upper and lower frames. Because of this, you would loose wood that would make contact with the upper and lower frames.

If you use intermediate noob's design, you use a "floating" 2 x 4 to attach the upper and lower frames and then surround that 2 x 4s. The 2 more 2 x 4s on each leg allows for more load distrobution.

I have the frame finished and now I am working on electrical and finishing wood. I have taken pictures, but I haven't had a chance to post them yet. As soon as I upload the images, I am going to start another journal thread on my stand and canopy. Hopefully some people will be able to see the fantastic design aspects of the frame through some of my pictures.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

User Name said:


> I agree, great idea. Let's add more value to the thread.


Thanks for the awesome pictures. I think you have added more value to the thread than I have What kind of wood did your buddy use for the face frame?



BiscuitSlayer said:


> I have the frame finished and now I am working on electrical and finishing wood. I have taken pictures, but I haven't had a chance to post them yet. As soon as I upload the images, I am going to start another journal thread on my stand and canopy. Hopefully some people will be able to see the fantastic design aspects of the frame through some of my pictures.


Cannot wait to see the pictures Biscuit! Totally understand if you want to start your own journal/thread, but please feel free to post them here if you like. I think this has grown more into a "best practices" thread than just mine anyway. Thanks again for all your contributions all!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I was just going to start my own thread so that we didn't take away from this thread's topic. I didn't want to start a hijack. I will definately post a pic of the basic frame and link to my thread from here. This thread deserves the credit for getting me off my rear and getting it done!

Thanks IN!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Here is a link to the thread I started on my 75 gallon stand:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/61837-biscuitslayers-75-gallon-stand-canopy-build.html


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Awesome thread you got going over there, I posted all kinds of questions for you!


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> What kind of wood did your buddy use for the face frame?


The wood is African mahogany which set him back $300+ :icon_eek:


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

How did I know it was going to be something like that? Plywood it is!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> Awesome thread you got going over there, I posted all kinds of questions for you!



Thanks a lot IN. I have to tell you though, I think your the brains behind this operation.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Thought I would post an update, still no pictures, but hopefully that will change after today.

I have been gone for about two weeks and finally was able to head to my friends house (he has all the _cool_ woodworking tools!) and get started on the stand for the 90 gallon side of this project.

The wood had been sitting in the dry, New Mexico weather (in a garage) for about two weeks and had dried more and started to warp. We built the bottom frame using the Kreg pocket-hole jig and all went well. However, the 2x6s were much worse than the 2x4s and the top frame was nowhere near square. So, we had two options. Joint and plane EVERYTHING to make sure that all the wood was the same size, or just build it as is.

Long story short, we (or I should say he) jointed and planed all of the wood. Basically the process flattens the wood and makes it square. I was amazed at the results. He stacked all of the pieces together in a pile and it was stable. Now you may say that this is the way it _should_ be, but try doing that with your local hardware store wood! Even when you are being picky, it is very hard to get straight wood. 

We are ready to begin the assembly today, just using different size wood. Normally 2x6s are approximately 1 1/2" by 5 1/2" and 2x4s are 1 1/2" by 3 1/2". The 2x6s now are 1 3/8" x 5 1/4" (shaved down 1/8" and 1/4" respectively) and the 2x4s are now 1 3/8" and 3 3/8" (shaved down 1/8" on both sides). This will drop the stand height by 3/8" but this is not a huge deal.

Anyway, just thought I would post the update. So after today I will have some pictures and be well on my way to getting this project off the drawing board and into my living room!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

IN - 

It is about time! I am looking forward to pictures. Im also itching to see how you do your electrical.

Sorry to hear about the lumber. It is funny how you had problems with the wood that I didn't have problems, and vise versa. Here I am suggesting to use 2 x 6s because of how true they are. Guess it kind of depends on where you live.

One word of caution (hopefully that you already know or read prior to starting). The outer measurements of the rims for a 75 / 90 in most cases is 48 3/8 by 18 3/8.

Can't wait to see the pics!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey there Biscuit! 

Funny that you mention the outer frame of the 90 because my All Glass is actually 48.5 by 18.5 so we just realized that we will have to re-cut the shorter (front to back) members because we lost the width because of the jointing and planing. Well I guess the extra wood we had left over was a good thing. 

Crap Crap Crap.... well it is off to my friends to continue the construction. Talk with you all later.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Well, I did not come home with the stand today , another mishap and more work. As per my last post, my friend had to cut new boards for the front to back pieces to ensure the full tank was supported. Then we had to joint and plane those as well. Here is one of them being planed:










So we started to assemble, and then realized, "Oh, the Jig was set for 1 1/2" wood, now it is 1 3/8" so we better change it." Then we found out the screws were too long, as seen here:










So out to Lowes and Homedepot only to find that no one carried the 2" Kreg specialty screws which are needed for the holes (panhead screws really, but could not find any 2" of those either). So we used some washers to shim the screws a bit. For the holes yet to be drilled, we are resetting the jig so that the screws will fit. Did not get to that, however.

So now the top and bottom frames are done. Here is a picture of the jointed and planed wood (left is jointed and planed, the right is a normal board):










And here is the mess we made from the other pieces of wood (and yes, that is how deep the shavings were):










Hopefully I can go over tomorrow and get more done. Ugh, I hate it when a plan doesn't come together.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

IN -

Excellent start! Sorry to hear your running into some problems. I have a couple of questions and possible suggestions though that may or may not help.

Since you had to run the wood through the planer to get it level, I am a little confused as to how this would remove the warping from the lumber. I understand what a planer does, but I am a little confused as to how say an 8' piece of lumber is not going to be warped after running it through the planer. It would seem to me that after running it through it would be thinner but the warp might still be there. Any way to describe how the warp is actually removed this way? (Man that sounds like a total newb question!)

The one cool thing that would come from running it through the planer is that all of your wood should wind up exactly equal which should make your skin sit perfectly. That will really help depending on if and how you decide to add trim. I would imagine that any trim work would be pretty much perfect and you wouldn't have to do nearly as much sanding as I had to.

I understand the problem that you are having with the screws since your now using thinner wood. Did you ever consider just running the screw through and then hitting it with a file or dremel tool to file/cut the point of the screw off? If you skin the stand, you'd never see it.

Keep us updated! I love this stuff.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey there Biscuit, here are the questions and comments form your post. And thanks for the encouragement btw. I was totally bummed yesterday when I came home and this made it a little easier to take, so I appreciate it.



BiscuitSlayer said:


> IN - Since you had to run the wood through the planer to get it level, I am a little confused as to how this would remove the warping from the lumber. I understand what a planer does, but I am a little confused as to how say an 8' piece of lumber is not going to be warped after running it through the planer. It would seem to me that after running it through it would be thinner but the warp might still be there. Any way to describe how the warp is actually removed this way? (Man that sounds like a total newb question!)


Not a newb question at all, and I am the biggest newb of all. The jointer gets one side flat, the planer basically takes off a set amount. The warp these removed was not a "U" shape from left to right long ways, but a twist to the wood and a warp perpendicular to the grain.

So easier to visualize. You have a 2x6 that is 5' long. My wood was twisted, like if you were hold one side down and turn the other. Also, it was warped from front to back (the 5.5" width, not the 5' length) so that is why planing it helped. Now, as you said, if it was warped along the 5' length, then yes, you would have to plane it A LOT to get it into shape. However, that warp that you get along the length can be removed when you screw it together. Hope that makes sense. 



BiscuitSlayer said:


> The one cool thing that would come from running it through the planer is that all of your wood should wind up exactly equal which should make your skin sit perfectly. That will really help depending on if and how you decide to add trim. I would imagine that any trim work would be pretty much perfect and you wouldn't have to do nearly as much sanding as I had to.


I hear you on that. The stand should be very easy to skin. I am amazed at how square it is. Even though it is not perfect, however. The friend who is helping me when he put it into perspective talking about Norm from "The Yankee Workshop". My friend said, "Even Norm has to sand." That made me feel better 



BiscuitSlayer said:


> I understand the problem that you are having with the screws since your now using thinner wood. Did you ever consider just running the screw through and then hitting it with a file or dremel tool to file/cut the point of the screw off? If you skin the stand, you'd never see it.
> 
> Keep us updated! I love this stuff.


The screw going in that far means that less of it is actually in the wood, that is why we shimmed those 8 screws. With the others, we just change the jig and all is well. Or at least in theory.

I am going to head out to get more wood for the longer stand so it can sit for a few weeks to dry. Hopefully will have some more updates in a few weekends when I get back over to his house. Too many other things coming up now to keep working each day. Crap I wish I could win the lottery and build all day!


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## deleted_user_15 (Jun 16, 2007)

intermediate_noob said:


> Crap I wish I could win the lottery and build all day!


:thumbsup: 
Got off to a rough start, but looks like you guys have it under control. 
Are you sure about buying wood two weeks in advance for the next project? 

I bought a 2x3 stud and left it in the garage for couple weeks, when I go around to it it was only good for fire wood. 
I usually buy wood night before and go back for more if I run out.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Yeah, even though the wood does warp, I would rather it warp before I build than after. With the dry climate we have here it is just inevitable that it is going to dry out and warp.

I am going to go and look at another lumber yard sometime this week to determine if their stock is a little better. Maybe I can get lucky and find something a bit better. Honestly, this happens with all the wood I buy so I do not know why I thought this would be different. Anyway, things are working out well now so I am confident it will be done....someday


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I have pretty good luck with the Lowes Top Choice lumber, but you have to use it quickly after you buy it. Once you get things together, you should be ok. 

Thanks for answering those questions BTW. That really helped me visualize things.

Now hurry up and get some stuff built and post more pics!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

So another update. I went out to Home Depot this morning and picked up the other wood for the 6' version of the stand. With the previous ordeal behind us (oh yeah the frame for the other stand is done, woohooo!) We figure that after the wood sits (my friend insists that it will make a better product) for a few weeks we will be completely done with the 90 gallon stand and be ready to start on the 135.

So a few things. First, we did not end up using the "floater" pieces just because it made it harder to square up the stand. Here is a shot of what I mean:









So, we pulled out all the clamps and the squares and got the thing together without them as you can see here:










And here are just some other good pictures of the stand and some progress points:





































So after all was said and done we brought the stand up to my house and put the 90 gallon on top of it and it was great. Sorry I did not get pictures but the lighting was horrible and they came out all blurry. It was level all the way around (could hardly believe it) and it fit like it was made for it. Go figure.

So now two things are going to happen. The first is I am going to need to find the wood for the outer casing and the doors. I have not decided on how I want to do the doors completely, but they will be like Biscuits with the floating center panel. 

These are the hinges I am going to use: http://woodworker.com/cgi-bin/FULLPRES.exe?PARTNUM=937-037&search=Hardware%20Hinges%20-%20Concealed

They can be mounded in many different ways and open to 175 degrees. Best of all they are concealed which is what I was looking for because the doors will be flush with the face frame. Now onto the bigger question, how the heck am I going to stick the two stands together? Well, hopefully I will have some quality time with SketchUp tonight to get that worked out and get the ideas out there for your opinions.

As far as plumbing and electrical goes, well I have a good idea of what I will be doing but am having a hard time finalizing everything. I will be keeping the same lighting for now (2 72" VHO T12s over the 135 and 2 48" VHO T12s over the 90), but I am not sure what to do about heating. I really want to get a heater controller but do not have any money to drop on things right now.

Things may be going slow, but at least they are going. I have a garage sale next weekend and I am demolishing my back yard (seriously, to the ground to start over) the weekend after so we will see how much I get done. I think I may sneak out of the house to work a little during the week if all goes well.

Thanks for looking.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

That looks great.  

Have you considered using the standard euro hinges with the cup? Those you've linked to look kind of bulky and lacking in adjustment, not to mention shockingly expensive compared to the ones I picked up at Lowes for $4, heh.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

IN -

Your stand looks fantastic! I love the way everything came up square and true. Planing all of that wood looks like it paid off big time. Skinning the stand and doing the finishing work should be a snap since you have a great base to work from.

One thing bothers me though:



intermediate_noob said:


> So a few things. First, we did not end up using the "floater" pieces just because it made it harder to square up the stand.


Are you kidding me? LOL  All of the defending of the screw strips we have done and you wind up not using them. Oh man, how are we ever going to live this one down. LMAO . I wonder why you ran into this issue. Did you possibly try to attach both outer legs to the screw strip prior to letting the upper and lower frames sit on them? I'm just trying to figure out why they presented the problem that they did. Obviously they aren't needed for the construction and you did a great job getting everything level and square. It just bothers me that it actually hindered the assembly for you.

As far as getting the two stands together, what is the end goal here? Do you want to get them attached to each other prior to doing the final finishing work? I would probably sit them in their final resting spot prior to doing anything else and get them level before doing anything else. Once you do that, just drive some screws from one frame into the other. If nothing else, that will give you a refrence point for the final attachment. I probably wouldn't do anything hard core because you wouldn't want one stand to mess with the integrity of the other stand. That might be catostrophic. My first thought was carriage bolts, but then I was thinking about the integrity factor and kind of leaned away from it. I would rather have a simple break point that allowed simple failure but also keeps each stands integrity good. Maybe even using a simple trim piece to cover up the difference between the two stands to give it the appearance that it is one stand.

Keep the updates coming man! Your frame looks awesome. I hope my frame is as square as yours. :icon_roll


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

imeridian said:


> That looks great.
> 
> Have you considered using the standard euro hinges with the cup? Those you've linked to look kind of bulky and lacking in adjustment, not to mention shockingly expensive compared to the ones I picked up at Lowes for $4, heh.


They are six-way adjustable, and yes they are REALLY expensive but I am wanting the doors to be able to open almost 180 degrees. Now because of the way the two tanks will be situated, I may only have these on two of the doors and normal hinges on the other (the far left and right doors could only open maybe 100 degrees). I am really undecided, and quite honestly, would like to see these in action before I make any direct purchases. Thanks for the input!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

So here is the concept for the double stand, with siding attached. I added doors and the center drawers so you could see what I mean. A couple of views to make it easier to see.

Doors and drawers open:









Full frontal view:









The door pattern and all are not 100%, just something to throw out there. I want to go a little lighter on the color, and just have a basic oak finish to it because this is going to match the canopy I have on my 135 already.

Thoughts? Thanks again for looking.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

My thoughts are that I like it a lot!

I like the idea of having the drawers in addition to the cabinets on the 135 section.

I do have one concern though. You said you already have a canopy for the 135. Your drawing shows the two tanks butted up against each other pretty tight, and I thought your original goal was to pretty much do that. Are you going to have two seprate canopies and how are you going to allow for them to sit on each tank? I would imagine that would push each tank at least 2 to 3 inches away from each other. Or am I missing the point entirely?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> IN -
> 
> Your stand looks fantastic! I love the way everything came up square and true. Planing all of that wood looks like it paid off big time. Skinning the stand and doing the finishing work should be a snap since you have a great base to work from.


Dang, sorry I did not see your post on my refresh and would have responded sooner. Thanks so much for your words of encouragement. I think the finishing is going to be really easy, but then again never have done it before so we will see how much wood I screw up!



BiscuitSlayer said:


> Are you kidding me? LOL  All of the defending of the screw strips we have done and you wind up not using them. Oh man, how are we ever going to live this one down. LMAO . I wonder why you ran into this issue. Did you possibly try to attach both outer legs to the screw strip prior to letting the upper and lower frames sit on them? I'm just trying to figure out why they presented the problem that they did. Obviously they aren't needed for the construction and you did a great job getting everything level and square. It just bothers me that it actually hindered the assembly for you.


I know, I felt very let down when they started causing all the issues. Now maybe I was just not using them correctly. I put a scrap piece of 2x4 down and rested the "floaters" on them and them clamped them to the bottom frame. Then added the legs and clamped them in place, and then added the top frame to see how everything looked (should have take a picture with all 12 clamps on there!) and that is when we saw how off kilter it all was. More than likely it was that the scraps were not square or something else was throwing those off, so we decided to simply drive a single screw into each leg and alternate (like tightening lug nuts on a car) and go around until the bottom was down. Then, added the top and used face-clamps to line it up and did the same tightening process once screw at a time. What did I do wrong with the floaters? Who knows, we may use them as legs for the other stand.



BiscuitSlayer said:


> As far as getting the two stands together, what is the end goal here? Do you want to get them attached to each other prior to doing the final finishing work? I would probably sit them in their final resting spot prior to doing anything else and get them level before doing anything else. Once you do that, just drive some screws from one frame into the other. If nothing else, that will give you a refrence point for the final attachment. I probably wouldn't do anything hard core because you wouldn't want one stand to mess with the integrity of the other stand. That might be catostrophic. My first thought was carriage bolts, but then I was thinking about the integrity factor and kind of leaned away from it. I would rather have a simple break point that allowed simple failure but also keeps each stands integrity good. Maybe even using a simple trim piece to cover up the difference between the two stands to give it the appearance that it is one stand.
> 
> Keep the updates coming man! Your frame looks awesome. I hope my frame is as square as yours. :icon_roll


Thanks again, I will keep updating as I come up with new SketchUp ideas and my plumbing and electrical decisions.

As far as joining the two stands, I am not going to fasten them. I am simply going to butt them up against one another, and like you said, use a piece of trim to cover any inconsistencies. In my Sketchup Drawing it does not show the gap that will be there between the tanks (the plastic tank trim makes it where the tank glass will not sit flush). I will have to use trim or something to cover the gap or ruin the sense of a single tank. I also share your worry about one tank causing an integrity failure or something in the other if they were connected. Lastly, if I ever want to move the thing, it would be best if they were separate.

So hopefully more to come soon. My next drawing will have the canopies and trim on the tanks to get a better "real" world look.

Thanks again for all the encouragement!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

What would be cool is to get a trim piece that is wide enough so that you can tack into it from the inside of the stand(s) with a few screws. That way, you could finish that piece of wood the same as the rest of the stand and then merely attach it when you put the stands next to each other. No nail holes, extra sanding, finishing, etc. Also would allow for ease of disassembly.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I do have one concern though. You said you already have a canopy for the 135. Your drawing shows the two tanks butted up against each other pretty tight, and I thought your original goal was to pretty much do that. Are you going to have two seprate canopies and how are you going to allow for them to sit on each tank? I would imagine that would push each tank at least 2 to 3 inches away from each other. Or am I missing the point entirely?


You are not missing the point at all, they will be butted up against one another. The existing canopy will be modified to butt up against the new one and then use trim to cover up any inconsistencies. My current canopy is nothing special like yours and is only around 6" high. 

So here is what I have:

*Corner - Closed*










*Corner-Open*
As you can see the supports are there to keep it on the tank. The Actual canopy extends further down. This piece would just be modified to sit on the top of the 90 gallon. instead of going down the side of the 135. The top would have its trim removed around the edge so it would sit flush as well, it is just a piece of molding. (Hate the paint, previous owner did that. Don't you love the plants that my fish ripped out just for this picture! )









*Full shot-closed*
This is just a shot of it closed.









*Full Shot-open*
And one of the whole thing opened


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## Bodo (Apr 19, 2008)

What CAD software are you using for those plans?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

It's is called SketchUp and is free here: http://sketchup.google.com/

Hope that helps.


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## Bodo (Apr 19, 2008)

awesome, thanks!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob -

Any updates man?

I am working on a totally unrelated project now, but it is somewhat related. I am building something out of red oak and the goal is to finish it the same way I finish the stand. It is basically going to be my "dry run".


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Sorry man, but no updates. I too am working on an unrelated project that involves ripping out my entire backyard (which was a scientific experiment to see just how much dog poop and weeds a particular yard could hold). My weekends have been filled with that and a little looking here and there for wood to finish the stand.

Long story short, we have a bunch of people coming over next weekend so we are having to get the house all situated and that is taking all my time. After next weekend I am hoping things start winding down and I can finish up the one side of the stand and start the frame for the 135.

I have been hand drawing out the electrical and filtration system so I might be able to post some of that stuff, but not much more. Stay tuned, it shall be complete soon!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

So I thought I would throw out a lame update to everyone who may have forgotten about this thread.

My landscaping, or landscape destruction, is still going on albeit slower than before so I have not had time to get to the stand for the 135 or to look very closely at wood for the finishing of the stand.

So here is what is on the docket for this weekend to see if I can get going again on this project. Keep in mind these are just things I want to get done so that I can get that "bug" again.


Get to a higher end lumber company today (Saturday) to check out their selection of plywood
Get the electrical system worked out so I know what else I need to buy
Get the plumbing situation worked out so I know what I need to buy
*possibly* get over to my friends house to start fixing up the wood to build the 135 stand

So as an aside, I just switched out pumps for my 135 last weekend. I went from a CAP2200 and a Rio 2100, both submerged in my double sumps each feeding a 3/4" spraybar (ugly white PVC in my tank) to a Little Giant 3-MDQX-SC feeding a 1.5" pvc, a single spraybar, and external CO2 reactor. The volume of water being pumped through the tank is amazing now, but the noise from the vibration of the pump is driving me, and I am sure the fish, batty. So I went out to the local hardware stores to switch out all the "hard lines" to 1" vinyl tubing, but no one carries it. Not even the fish store. So I went to Savco.com and bought new fittings that will be here next week to hopefully quell some of the vibration. This whole thing was a test for the moving and updating after the stands are built. Now I am concerned. Well, we will see how it goes and hopefully I will come home with some wood today.

See ya.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> So I thought I would throw out a lame update to everyone who may have forgotten about this thread.
> 
> My landscaping, or landscape destruction, is still going on albeit slower than before so I have not had time to get to the stand for the 135 or to look very closely at wood for the finishing of the stand.
> 
> So here is what is on the docket for this weekend to see if I can get going again on this project. Keep in mind these are just things I want to get done so that I can get that "bug" again.


IN -

I know the feeling. I have had a hard time working on things lately too. It is easy to get side tracked this time of year with other projects and happenings that just spring up and keep you from working on projects.

With me, my kids are almost out of school for the summer and I have had little projects here and there that either consume my time or keep me from working on what I want to.

Hopefully, tomorrow, I am going to work on my canopy all day (maybe until it is finished). 

Good luck to us both! LOL


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

IN-

I wanted to ask you if you actually used a joiner and a planer to get the wood flat and square. It would make sense to run the wood through a joiner first on two sides (1 width and 1 thickness) and then run it through the planer on the other two sides.

Was that the method that you used to get the boards flat?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey there Biscuit. Yes that is the way we did it. My friend showed me how to joint the two ends, then we put them through the planer and that is what made the boards so straight. Your method is exactly what we did.

On a note on my 6' stand. The 6' 2x4s and 2x6s are way too warped to do much with so instead of using these we are going to get a sheet of plywood and laminate two pieces together the length we need. I will still be using the 2x4s for the legs and cross braces, but not for the longer pieces. 

Also, after searching for some better plywood, we have settled on just using the Lowe's stock. However, we cannot match the hood that I currently have so we are going to have to build an all new hood. Which is better anyway. 

So there you have it, have done nothing on my stand....but there are two less 25'+ trees in my back yard and my gate is now fixed and does not lean anymore. Home improvement and fish tanks do not mix well!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification IN.

As far as the canopy goes, I saw one somewhere that used a ply construction pretty much all the way around. If I can find it, I'll send you a link to the pictures. If I ever build another canopy, I think I'll go this route as I think it would be much more efficient and just as good looking.

As far as the Lowe's stock, what type are you going to use? Oak, birch, maple?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

My whole canopy now is made of plywood, but just to make sure we are on the same page, I am talking about the cross braces of the stand being plywood. What would normally be the 2x6s will now be two pieces of 5.5" plywood laminated together. I think I am just being redundant, but just want to make sure.

As far as the plywood, I like the natural look of Oak with a polyurethane top coat and that is it. But, I am still undecided.


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## steven (Jul 7, 2004)

intermediate_noob said:


> So here is the concept for the double stand, with siding attached. I added doors and the center drawers so you could see what I mean. A couple of views to make it easier to see.
> 
> Thoughts? Thanks again for looking.


Overall, I think it looks nice. But there is one suggestion I'd make, that I think would greatly improve the final result. It looks like you're planning to cut the door and drawer openings out of a large piece of plywood to make a one-piece face frame. I would recommend that you instead cut the plywood into strips the width of the rails and stiles and assemble the face frame out of these (like a "real" kitchen cabinet). This way, your grain will be running correctly. Having grain run across the vertical pieces is going to look odd.

If you choose to do this, the best two options for this would be to join the pieces with biscuits or pocket screws. If you are not already setup for biscuits, the tool is kind of expensive (around $200 for a good one). However, you can get a descent pocket hole kit made by Kreg from amazon for about $40:
http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-R3-Pocke...d_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213283878&sr=8-3


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## steven (Jul 7, 2004)

intermediate_noob said:


> As far as the plywood, I like the natural look of Oak with a polyurethane top coat and that is it. But, I am still undecided.


You may want to consider lacquer. It is a more forgiving finish, because each coat "melts" into the previous coat. With polyurethane, each coat stays separate, which makes it somewhat easy to mess up when sanding, because it is possible to sand through one coat in an area and end up with a noticeable white line transitioning between the coats.

I find lacquer much easier to work with, and it dries VERY fast allowing many coats in one day. Keep in mind that you'll need lacquer thinner instead of mineral spirits for cleanup.

I used lacquer to finish the stand I built of oak around 7 years ago for my 125 gallon tank. I have been very pleased with it.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

steven said:


> Overall, I think it looks nice. But there is one suggestion I'd make, that I think would greatly improve the final result. It looks like you're planning to cut the door and drawer openings out of a large piece of plywood to make a one-piece face frame. I would recommend that you instead cut the plywood into strips the width of the rails and stiles and assemble the face frame out of these (like a "real" kitchen cabinet). This way, your grain will be running correctly. Having grain run across the vertical pieces is going to look odd.
> 
> If you choose to do this, the best two options for this would be to join the pieces with biscuits or pocket screws. If you are not already setup for biscuits, the tool is kind of expensive (around $200 for a good one). However, you can get a descent pocket hole kit made by Kreg from amazon for about $40:
> http://www.amazon.com/Kreg-R3-Pocke...d_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1213283878&sr=8-3


Thanks Steven, I do have the Kreg pocket hole jig. If you take a look at the previous pages, there are some pictures of the 90 gallon stand and you can see the pocket holes.

Thanks for the suggestion about the doors. The Sketchup drawing just used a texture for the doors, but I have also been thinking about using strips and biscuiting them together. My friend has the biscuit joiner so I am set to go for that. I appreciate all your suggestions.


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## Macfan (Mar 30, 2008)

*240g stand*

Google SketchUp is a very nice tool. It's free and there are some excellent video tutorials on the Google site to teach you the concepts. It's different than standard CAD tools, and very easy to use once you understand the concepts. 

Here are the drawings I did for the stand for my 240g tank on my aquarium blog:
http://aquaticobsession.blogspot.com/2007/08/new-stand.html

Apparently I don't have any pictures up of the finished stand. I'll work on that. It looks pretty much like the drawings though. 

Mine has 8 legs, which is 240lbs per leg. So that's no worse than me standing on one leg on the floor. Luckily I'm in a loft in a former warehouse building, so I don't have to worry about the floors supporting the weight. 

Michael


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## Macfan (Mar 30, 2008)

*Picture of my tank and stand*

I promised a picture of the tank with stand. At some point in the future, I'll post more, but this is good for now.


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## deondrec (Sep 30, 2008)

great advice thanks


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## coldfusionpower (Dec 24, 2007)

i wanted to do the same thing aswell .. i have two 4ft tanks side by side .. but i have rather stupid question to ask .. both tank have everything in it .. even if i took out all the water inside.. the tank still will be very heavy .. any idea how to lift it up ?


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

coldfusionpower said:


> i wanted to do the same thing aswell .. i have two 4ft tanks side by side .. but i have rather stupid question to ask .. both tank have everything in it .. even if i took out all the water inside.. the tank still will be very heavy .. any idea how to lift it up ?


I am sorry but I do not understand your questions. Are you saying that without water and just the rock and substrate how would you move it? If that is what you are asking, then I am sorry but my answer is I would not move it with that in there. For my tanks, I will have to completely tear them down and empty them completely. Then and only then will I be able to move them.

I have a little over 130 pounds of sand in my 135 gallon tank and I must say that much extra weight scares me as to the stress it would cause on the glass. If you want to move your tanks, I would HIGHLY suggest you remove it all and then move or you could end up with a busted tank.

Hope that helps.


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## coldfusionpower (Dec 24, 2007)

yes .. and thanks for answering .. looks like i have to empty both of them .. .. i just rescape both .. sigh ..


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

coldfusionpower said:


> yes .. and thanks for answering .. looks like i have to empty both of them .. .. i just rescape both .. sigh ..


I wish I had better news  In the long run though, a rescape is better than a new tank. Now if only I could update this thread with some ACTUAL work! Hopefully soon.


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## Macfan (Mar 30, 2008)

Alright, the long anticipated detailed photos and explanation of my setup.... How it's Made

Michael


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Michael, wow...this is just an amazing tank. I have not been able to read through all of your journal, but I must say this is one of the best I have seen. THANK YOU for providing it for the group to see.

For everyone out there that is wondering what happened to me, well things have been a little rough. Money is very tight and scarce right now as my family and I try to recover from a layoff and so this project is on hold for awhile. I am still doing a lot of planning, especially with regard to electrical, so hopefully I will have some plans up soon. Thanks for all those who have posted questions and their own experiences...it helps for me to keep somewhat of an optimistic outlook that I will someday be there.

Not to get too sappy, but next week here in the US we traditionally look back on the year to see what we are most thankful. I must say, that for me, the community here at the Planted Tank is one thing I am very thankful to have. Thanks to everyone for keeping me going in this hobby, even when things seem just too much. Peace and many blessings to you all.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

intermediate_noob said:


>


Hey, I'm starting to build this stand and I wonder why you took out the corner brace/post in your original design. I tested the lateral & corner movement on this and it moved slightly. It's being held together by pocket screws. I added 4 2x4 posts to the corners reaching from the ground to the very top and everything is sturdy & strong. The corners are now held together by the 2x4 and not just pocket screws.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> Hey, I'm starting to build this stand and I wonder why you took out the corner brace/post in your original design. I tested the lateral & corner movement on this and it moved slightly. It's being held together by pocket screws. I added 4 2x4 posts to the corners reaching from the ground to the very top and everything is sturdy & strong. The corners are now held together by the 2x4 and not just pocket screws.


When my friend and I started to build up the stand and ended up jointing and planing the wood, we realized that the corner screw boards were no longer necessary. Those pieces, as the original designer stated, were only to make the stand easier to put together and have no real structural significance. If your corners were moving, then it could be a number of things, but my guess would be the joints where the 2x4s come together (the ends). With the jointed and planed wood (and a lot of luck) we got perfect joints. My stand does not move at all. 

In your stand, if the 2x4s you used for the corners go from the very top to the floor, unlike the original design, they have now become load bearing. This has been a point of contention within the thread, but the original designer specifically stated they should not be from top to bottom. I do not think it would make that much of a difference, but you may want to go back and look at the points made by those in this thread.

The secret was the jointing and planing. It made the stand super straight and level.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

did you skin you frame yet?

yeah. I didn't have a planer, which made things harder to square but I got it done. I'm pretty anal with measurements.

I'm laminating a few boards together to make the top now.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> did you skin you frame yet?
> 
> yeah. I didn't have a planer, which made things harder to square but I got it done. I'm pretty anal with measurements.
> 
> I'm laminating a few boards together to make the top now.


I am laminating boards together for the six foot stand I am building. And no, I have not skinned the stand as of yet because I was unable to find any decent plywood until recently. After the first of the year when my friend is back I am going to go out and buy it to at least skin that stand and build the canopy. When I get plywood is also when I will be finishing the lamination.

I am very hopeful (crossing fingers) that I can be done before spring!!!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I can't find any good plywood either, so I'm making laminated panels. They look good and it's only a few dollars more expensive and more time of course.. I don't have a truck so I can't haul large sheets of plywood anyway.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> I can't find any good plywood either, so I'm making laminated panels. They look good and it's only a few dollars more expensive and more time of course.. I don't have a truck so I can't haul large sheets of plywood anyway.


http://theheadlemur.typepad.com/remodeling_for_geeks/2008/06/fun-with-plywood-2.html


This is the stuff you can pick up at the Home Depot or Lowes that seems pretty good. I hear ya on the truck situation. I have to get it cut down in order to bring it home.

How are you laminating your panels?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

just wood glue, wood and 4-5 large clamps.
I glue a few 1x10 boards together and you have a nice panel.
After doing it a few times, it's best to route or rip the sides then apply glue to both sides of the joined edge.

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/GluePanel.html


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> just wood glue, wood and 4-5 large clamps.
> I glue a few 1x10 boards together and you have a nice panel.
> After doing it a few times, it's best to route or rip the sides then apply glue to both sides of the joined edge.
> 
> http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/GluePanel.html


I understand what you mean now. This was what I was going to do originally for the doors, but decided to go for frame and panel. Hopefully someday I will have this thing completed!


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Is this thing done?


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## Curator (Feb 20, 2009)

EcoGeek said:


> I am a woodworker, so I have made use of this site in the past. If you take the time to do your weight calculations this can be useful. I realize it is designed for shelving, but you can still use it to help determine what you'll need to support this beast.
> 
> It is called "The Sagulator."
> 
> http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htm



Oh god, that thing is awesome,lol... seriously has saved me allot of future expense... The way I was planning on building mine, I just found was an insane amount of overkill thanks to this calculator, thanks to you and the sagulator I can build it for less than half the original cost I thought it would be, and still have allot of overkill for what i'll be putting on it... (better safe than sorry,lol)


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

gmccreedy said:


> Is this thing done?


Wow, this post made me feel very very guilty. No it is not done. Honest truth? Life has got in the way and I am not motivated, however things may change soon.

Right now as it stands (no pun intended), the 90 gallon or 4' stand is built but not skinned. I have the plans laid out for what wood I will need and the cuts. I also have recently bought a router, bits, more pocket hole screws, and was given a radial arm saw. Hopefully this will make things easier seeing as my friend is out of town for awhile and I cannot use his tools. There is however and issue, I am really having a hard time with one thing. The doors.

We are not talking Jim Morrison here, but with the type of doors for the stand. I wanted to do frame and panel, but the more I think about it, the less it sounds like something that will come out looking like I want it.

Thoughts from you all who may have built these before? Should I go frame and panel or go with what MisterGreen said with gluing together some 1x10s and getting a good panel? Also, if someone could give me a swift kick in the rear to get going would also appreciate it. Thanks!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Here is one door option: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5986, good for those with woodworking skills still in need of development.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Don't feel bad IN. I am (have been) in the same boat as you. Dry on funds, motivation, and most of all time. I am going to have a bit of time to work on my stand soon, and hopefully I'll make a little bit of a dent in it when I decide to get to work. 

As far as the doors go, there are probably a few options you might be able to take. If you go the route that Mr.Green suggests, you should be able to make some very nice doors. You are going to need some very straight lumber that is free from warping, otherwise it is going to look like hammered c**p. Another route might be to have a cabinet maker make the doors to your spefications. I know it is an easy way out, but they might be able to make you the perfect doors for a reasonable price. If you go the panel door route, you don't have to worry too much about being straight. You have the router, so making the panel door won't be as difficult. I believe you have all of the necessary power tools to get them done. Here is what my idea would be (based off of what I have already done with panel doors):

1. Run a dado/groove down the length of the lumber. I would suggest making multiple passes, increasing the depth each time. Don't try to do too much at one time or you might have problems or a broken bit or two. With something like this, I don't try to take out too much more than 1/8" to 1/4" per pass.

I like to use 1" x 2"s. The actual material you would have to work with would be 3/4" rather than 1", but you already know this. I am just explaining it for people that might not realize the difference. Find the center of the wood and then center your bit so that you are running down the center of the wood for where the panel will go. As far as the depth of the dado/groove goes, I like to shoot for exactly 1/2" for the end result. The reason for this is explained in more detail in step 3. I would suggest running entire lengths of lumber through the router so that your frame pieces are all consistent. If you don't have the bit exactly centered, it won't matter as much if you do this with entire lengths of wood. Make sure to try this on a test piece or two before you use the "good stuff".

2. Make your miter cuts on the lumber at 45 degree angles. Mark each of your frame pieces with an x on the same side of each piece so you keep the dado/groove orientated the same throughout the entire frame. This way it won't matter if the dado/groove is not centered exactly. It will, however, be exactly the same throughout the entire frame piece. 

I like to measure the outside of the cuts on this so that I get the outside dimensions of the doors to my liking. The best way to do this is with a miter sled on a table saw, but you can use a miter saw to accomplish the same thing. Just make sure that your miter saw is set up for exact 45 degree cuts. Once again, make a test cut or to make sure you are good to go before cutting the "good stuff".

3. Now you should have your frame(s) built. Dry fit them and prepare to get your measurements for the panel piece. Lay them out flat to see how it looks with the "x" all facing the same direction, either up or down. Whatever your inside measurements (top to bottom and side to side) are, add one inch if your dado/groove was 1/2". You might wind up shaving a little bit more off of the top or bottom of each of the panels before you get the perfect fit, but it should be really close. Remember that the panel can be a tad smaller and it should still work perfectly. The other important thing to remember here is to make sure your panels are orientated the same way (consistent grain direction) for all panels. Draw some rough lines on the wood before you perform the cuts if necessary. They should sand out without any problems.

The best thing to cut your panels to the perfect size is a miter sled. You can set up your piece on the sled and get a perfect cut that is true and square. I like to cut the finished side of the plywood facing down. This will reduce chipout. Ultimately, though, chipout shouldn't be too much of a concern as you will be covering up the outer edge inside the dado/groove of the frame.

4. Dry fit each door before gluing into place. Make sure everything lines up well and fits together squarely. If you need to, mark the corners where the miters are with a line over the seams so you can fit the pieces together perfectly when gluing. The other thing you can do is put a number next to each of the little "x's" you marked earier. You can also mark corresponding "x's" with the numbers on the panel itself where the frame pieces will cover them up after final gluing. The lines will help with perfect joints before you apply the clamping pressure.

Those are just suggestions for keeping things perfect. I know if I don't follow them, I wind up with some stupid mistakes. 

5. Glue and clamp everything together. I would apply glue to the outside edge of the panels and smooth it out with your finger. Then apply a bead of glue down the entire length of the dado/groove of your frame pieces (one at a time) working in either a clockwise or counter clockwise direction. As I am putting the pieces on, I apply glue to both mitered corners so that they are glued as well. Once everything is ready to clamp, making sure everything is aligned perfectly apply your clamp pressure. I like to use band clamps for this particular application. I like to use the following clamp:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=186520-1073-VAS-23&lpage=none

You only need one of these clamps to do all of your doors. They work perfectly to get the job done.

Personally, I would go the paneled door route because it is easier IMO. If you glue together the pieces as mentioned above, there is a lot more finishing work evolved to get everything smooth and finished. There isn’t anything wrong with that if you are up to the task, but it is too much work for me, LOL. You would definitely want to invest in some cabinet scrapers or a good plane to take down all of the edges, and the biscuit jointer would be pretty helpful as well. You would also need some good clamps to hold everything together while you are letting the glue set.

As far as the kick in the pants go, I’ll kick you if you kick me. LOL


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> Here is one door option: http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=5986, good for those with woodworking skills still in need of development.


I would love to do something like this, but at approximately 40 dollars a door, I cannot afford it (would need four doors, and I do not really like the styles). However, I have seen other, similar types of sites out there so this may be a good idea. Thanks alot for the advice Hoppy.

However I am still pondering the solid door. I love that look.

Thanks again for the advice!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> As far as the kick in the pants go, I’ll kick you if you kick me. LOL


Thanks Biscuit! I had forgotten how good it was to post on the forum to get a little motivation going. 

It had been such a long time since I saw your thread that I had forgotten how you made your doors. Do you think that a half-inch panel is better than a 11/32" (3/8")? The reason I ask is that is the size of router bit I got to cut the slot for the groove in the stiles and rails of the doors. I was actually thinking of using 3/4" plywood for the rails and stiles and then use 3/8" (Or 23/32 and 11/32) for the panel. I know the edge of the plywood will show, but I am wanting the doors to be inset into the face frame so I was not too worried. 

Did you use biscuits for the corners of your doors or just glue? I am wondering if I could just use my pocket hole jig to do it as well.

I think I am over-complicating things as I was going to go the whole mortising and tenon-ing the rails and stiles and doing the doors that route. I like your way a lot better.

Anyway, I am having a hard time staying coherent, need to sleep. (Worked just under 100 hours in the last 8 days) Thanks for all the guidance Biscuit. Tell you what, you finish before me and I will send you some of my swords that are outgrowing my 55!

Have a good night.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> Do you think that a half-inch panel is better than a 11/32" (3/8")? The reason I ask is that is the size of router bit I got to cut the slot for the groove in the stiles and rails of the doors. I was actually thinking of using 3/4" plywood for the rails and stiles and then use 3/8" (Or 23/32 and 11/32) for the panel. I know the edge of the plywood will show, but I am wanting the doors to be inset into the face frame so I was not too worried.


I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying above, especially with the "rails and stiles". You plan on using plywood to create the frame for the panel?

As far as the panel thickness, it is up to you, really. I would imagine that a dado on a piece of lumber that is roughly 3/4" is going to be eaiser with a thinner pannel/dado. I see no problem with reducing the size down to 3/8". That should be plenty ridgid enough for the application, as the completed door will be pretty sturdy.




intermediate_noob said:


> Did you use biscuits for the corners of your doors or just glue? I am wondering if I could just use my pocket hole jig to do it as well.


I just used glue, but bisuits or your pocket hole jig would be better. My plan is to use some of those brass L brackets on the front and back of each corner. I wanted to keep everything streight and add a bit of flash to the look. It isn't going to be as solid as one of the joinery methods that you mentioned though.



intermediate_noob said:


> I think I am over-complicating things as I was going to go the whole mortising and tenon-ing the rails and stiles and doing the doors that route. I like your way a lot better.


Mortise and tennons will be a hell of a lot stronger than what I have suggested. It will also be a lot more complicated to execute although not impossible. I wouldn't bother as I don't think it is necessary to the design. If you were talking about something that was going to be loadbearing or structural integrity was paramount then it would be the way to go. 

I figure 10 years down the road if my doors fall apart, the most I will have do do is make a new set of doors. I would have to find a new method of construction, obviously.

I built a similar set of doors for a custom iguana cage I made about 18 years ago. Those doors were not as well made, and I followed a similar method to make them. They are still holding up fine. I figure my doors will work atleast that long.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I am having a hard time visualizing what you are saying above, especially with the "rails and stiles". You plan on using plywood to create the frame for the panel?


Sorry, I mean using plywood for the door frame. Rails=horizontal members and stiles=vertical members. So yes, I was thinking about using plywood for the frame. Now I am not so sure.

Also, I am starting to worry about the climate here being so dry. I have been reading some woodworking forums regarding warping and such in arid climates like here in NM and in AZ. Should I be concerned? I know what leaving wood out in my garage looks like after a couple of months and I sure as heck do not my doors looking like that.

Thank you for the other input on the remainder of the door questions. I feel a lot less apprehension with doing this.

Now, onto a different topic (if others want to weigh in on the doors, please do!). What about drawers? Anyone build them? Should I just use pocket screws and not try to go with anything fancy like dovetails or box ends? Don't get me wrong, I would love to go fancy, but in reality I do not want to buy tools or jigs that I will never use as money is very tight right now. Again, any help is appreciated. Thanks!


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I have a different tactic for you, possibly.

What if you ran the dado groove on the flat side of the 1 x 2s and then outlined the plywood panel with the pieces? The 1 x 2s would just be a trim to make it look more finished, but they wouldn't be as difficult to fasten/construct. You could even screw them in from the side facing the inside of your stand. I'll bet that would look damn good and it would be easy too. Especially if you are shooting for the doors to be inset.

Edit: If you go with a hardwood plywood, there isn't going to be any warping at 1/2" or better. This stuff is as hard as a rock, and the ply construction elminates the warping properties of the wood itself.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I have a different tactic for you, possibly.
> What if you ran the dado groove on the flat side of the 1 x 2s and then outlined the plywood panel with the pieces? The 1 x 2s would just be a trim to make it look more finished, but they wouldn't be as difficult to fasten/construct. You could even screw them in from the side facing the inside of your stand. I'll bet that would look damn good and it would be easy too. Especially if you are shooting for the doors to be inset.


OK, I must be dense. I am not understanding what you mean.

When you say "flat side" do you mean 2" (1.5) side? So like rabbeting the edge of the 1x2 and then attaching the 1/2", 3/8", or whatever panel to the edge?

Sorry, I am not full conscious today or something. Please speak slower


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

IN -

You aren't dense. You got my point exactly with the appropriate terminology.


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## redman88 (Dec 12, 2008)

intermediate when you get this done i want make a trip up there to see it


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

redman88 said:


> intermediate when you get this done i want make a trip up there to see it


That sounds like a plan. You can take some of my Endler's while you are here! :thumbsup:


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> IN -
> 
> You aren't dense. You got my point exactly with the appropriate terminology.


Biscuit, wow I cannot believe I actually understood. It has been a crazy week. You know the ones where you dream about work and cannot de-stress?

Anyway. I like your idea, and it sounds as though it would be easier and would still allow for a little fudge factor as everything does not have to be 100% straight. Without a table saw ripping large pieces of plywood can be tough.

for the plywood on your stand, did you just get the Oak or Birch kind from the big chain stores? I am looking at this stuff: 
http://www.arauco.cl/araucoplyusa/informacion.asp?idq=1816

It is not hardwood so I am worried, but it comes in as much cheaper and is so much better in quality than what my local HD and Lowes have in stock with regard to hardwood types. Any experience with it or advice? Thanks again for all the help!


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## redman88 (Dec 12, 2008)

intermediate_noob said:


> That sounds like a plan. You can take some of my Endler's while you are here! :thumbsup:


only if i am done setting up my 29 gallon


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> Anyway. I like your idea, and it sounds as though it would be easier and would still allow for a little fudge factor as everything does not have to be 100% straight. Without a table saw ripping large pieces of plywood can be tough.
> 
> for the plywood on your stand, did you just get the Oak or Birch kind from the big chain stores? I am looking at this stuff:
> http://www.arauco.cl/araucoplyusa/informacion.asp?idq=1816


I bought the oak plywood from Lowes. It sounds like the stock I have access to is in better shape than what you have access to. Maybe my store is able to move more product which enables me to see fresh stuff when I make a visit. The only problem I have with the hardwood plywood at Lowes is occasionally, it has pretty bad water stains on the veneer side. Do you have any access to lumber yards in your area? Even if they don’t carry what you are looking for, they might be able to give you a special order price. As long as you don’t have to front the money before placing the order, it might be worth a shot.

I haven't used the product that you referred to. It looks interesting. The tongue and groove aspect would give some flexibility as well as scalability. I would be a little concerned about the finishing aspect though. If it does use a pine veneer, I would be concerned about how it will look stained, if you go that route.

If you use mortise and tennon joints on your rails and stiles for the boarder pieces and get your plywood cut pretty close to the dimensions of your rabbit cuts in the frame, you should have no problem with warping if you are using hardwoods. I see no reason for this to be a great looking rock solid solution to your door situation. It also should be relatively easy to execute with the tools you have on hand as well as your knowledge of woodworking. 

One option that you might have is to make your frame up and then get the dimensions that you need for the plywood inserts. If you wanted to use a certain thickness of plywood, I would be happy to scout things out here and cut them down to your specifications. Unless the doors are huge, I wouldn't imagine that shipping would be that much.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> I bought the oak plywood from Lowes. It sounds like the stock I have access to is in better shape than what you have access to. Maybe my store is able to move more product which enables me to see fresh stuff when I make a visit. The only problem I have with the hardwood plywood at Lowes is occasionally, it has pretty bad water stains on the veneer side. Do you have any access to lumber yards in your area? Even if they don’t carry what you are looking for, they might be able to give you a special order price. As long as you don’t have to front the money before placing the order, it might be worth a shot.


My biggest issue is time for the other lumber yards. What I mean is that they are only open Mon - Fri, 8-5 and my work does not allow me to go to places like this. So my options were limited. I now get every other Friday off, so maybe this Friday might be a good idea to go look. I know there are a couple of places here in town that sell cabinet grade plywood.


BiscuitSlayer said:


> I haven't used the product that you referred to. It looks interesting. The tongue and groove aspect would give some flexibility as well as scalability. I would be a little concerned about the finishing aspect though. If it does use a pine veneer, I would be concerned about how it will look stained, if you go that route.


Their tongue and groove product does look interesting, but I would only be using their normal plywood. It is the flattest and best looking stuff that Lowes or HD has and it does not have many voids in the wood (blank places in the layers for those who may not know). I check the scrap pile each time I am there hoping that someone left a piece that I could take home, mock up, stain, etc. to see how it will look. I have to finish a project for my son so I am thinking of biting the bullet and picking up a 3/8" piece. It is only 22 dollars.


BiscuitSlayer said:


> If you use mortise and tennon joints on your rails and stiles for the boarder pieces and get your plywood cut pretty close to the dimensions of your rabbit cuts in the frame, you should have no problem with warping if you are using hardwoods. I see no reason for this to be a great looking rock solid solution to your door situation. It also should be relatively easy to execute with the tools you have on hand as well as your knowledge of woodworking.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I am just really worried about going the pine veneer route and having to redo the doors. But honestly, if I have to redo the doors, what is the harm in that? 


BiscuitSlayer said:


> One option that you might have is to make your frame up and then get the dimensions that you need for the plywood inserts. If you wanted to use a certain thickness of plywood, I would be happy to scout things out here and cut them down to your specifications. Unless the doors are huge, I wouldn't imagine that shipping would be that much.


Thanks Biscuit. I really appreciate the offer. If I cannot find anything out here I will be in touch. 

I have all the plans mocked up and the cut list ready to go...it is just the trepidation of making the jump. This Friday I will be making a trip to all the lumber yards and then see what I can find. If nothing, then it is off to HD or Lowes to get some test pieces to try out and hopefully will be able to do something. At the very least, make some sawdust!

Well it is off to work. Have a good week everyone, and keep the comments coming!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

OK, just a quick update. I called around to the hardwood stores and specialty wood shops in my area on Friday and have come to the conclusion that I do not have enough money for this hobby 

Oak plywood was close to 80 dollars a sheet at most places, but I bet the quality was top notch (did not even go down there). However, one place said they had some nice "basswood" plywood that took stain real well. Around $42 a sheet. Only issue is the size. I cannot fit a 4x8 sheet into the wife's SUV so it would have to be cut by about 4-6". They do not have anything to do that. Foiled again (all my friends traded in their trucks for little cars due to gas prices).

So. My solution will be to buy the pine plywood at my local HD or Lowes and do something with the stain. I also went ahead and priced some of the 1x4s and such for the doors and think I have a pretty good idea of what I need, how much it will cost, and how to go about building the doors. I am still torn on whether to do mitered corner doors with the floating panel or mortis and tenon joints with the rails and stiles being perpendicular. Both rely on my skills with power tools which is scary in and of itself.

My final project this weekend was to clean out my garage as my normal workshop (friend's garage) is not able to be used. I was able to get the radial arm saw up off the floor, get the router and miter saw onto a makeshift stand, and to clear off enough room to setup a work area using some saw horses and an old closet door. Still cannot park "Cars" in the garage, but beggers can't be choosers.

Next on my list of things to do is to build this: http://www.lowescreativeideas.com/idea-library/projects/Squaring_Jig_0808.aspx.

"Why?" do you ask? Well, I only have one pair of hands and this will make it easier for me to align the pieces of the stand for the 135, the face frame, the doors, etc. This will just go a little further to make sure things are square seeing as though I do not have access to a planer or joiner right now. (BTW, HD seems to have a good stock of straight 2x6s so I am hoping to get over there to get some to build the 135 stand).

So I am no farther than I was, but feel like I am making progress. If that makes sense. Stay tuned folks, I SWEAR I am going to finish this.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

intermediate_noob said:


> Now, onto a different topic (if others want to weigh in on the doors, please do!). What about drawers? Anyone build them? Should I just use pocket screws and not try to go with anything fancy like dovetails or box ends? Don't get me wrong, I would love to go fancy, but in reality I do not want to buy tools or jigs that I will never use as money is very tight right now. Again, any help is appreciated. Thanks!



I finally made it through this thread! 

My father in law just built his first drawers using the pocket screws. They look good and seem sturdy.

I have an distant family member that builds displays that you see in department stores. He often will use a router to take off half of the width on the ends of the box or drawer panels at an equal depth. when the corners are put together there is a lot more surface area for the glue to be applied to. It makes the corners fit together with a zig zag.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

lumpyfunk said:


> I finally made it through this thread!
> 
> My father in law just built his first drawers using the pocket screws. They look good and seem sturdy.
> 
> I have an distant family member that builds displays that you see in department stores. He often will use a router to take off half of the width on the ends of the box or drawer panels at an equal depth. when the corners are put together there is a lot more surface area for the glue to be applied to. It makes the corners fit together with a zig zag.


Thank you for the info lumpy! I was thinking of doing this same thing and just rabbeting out the joint like you were saying. I think this would be a really good idea for a nice and simple drawer. Did your family member put faces on the drawers? So was it the box and then another piece of wood for the face, or just the box? Just wondered.

Thanks again for the input!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

That drawer construction method was the one I used most of the time. I used Baltic Birch plywood, cut a groove in one piece and a rabbet in the other piece, to leave a tongue that fit into the groove. Only I used a table saw for all of the cuts. These 4 pieces, plus a piece of 1/4" plywood for the bottom, made the drawer. Then, if the drawer was to have a front to match the doors, I made that separately and screwed it to the drawer box. If the drawer was behind a cabinet door, I just cut a finger clearance half moon on the front of the drawer. European drawer slides completed the installation. I could make a dozen drawers in one day using that technique. And, they were very strong.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> That drawer construction method was the one I used most of the time. I used Baltic Birch plywood, cut a groove in one piece and a rabbet in the other piece, to leave a tongue that fit into the groove. Only I used a table saw for all of the cuts. These 4 pieces, plus a piece of 1/4" plywood for the bottom, made the drawer. Then, if the drawer was to have a front to match the doors, I made that separately and screwed it to the drawer box. If the drawer was behind a cabinet door, I just cut a finger clearance half moon on the front of the drawer. European drawer slides completed the installation. I could make a dozen drawers in one day using that technique. And, they were very strong.


Thank you Hoppy, I really appreciate the input.. Did you mean something like this.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Yes, but closer to:










With all of the dimensions the same: .25 inch wide groove, .25 inch deep, set .25 inches from the end. Then setting the table saw to cut them is easiest, and it is at least as strong as any other configuration.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> Yes, but closer to:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That does seem very easy, now if I only had a table saw...hmmm. I do have a 3/8" router bit that I bet I could do something like this. I will have to experiment. I am hoping, like you said, that I can set it once and then just space it with some type of makeshift jig to make the cuts for multiple parts. And with the dado set at .25" you can also run the groove the length for the bottom, correct?

Thanks again Hoppy, I really really appreciate it.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

intermediate_noob said:


> That does seem very easy, now if I only had a table saw...hmmm. I do have a 3/8" router bit that I bet I could do something like this. I will have to experiment. I am hoping, like you said, that I can set it once and then just space it with some type of makeshift jig to make the cuts for multiple parts. And with the dado set at .25" you can also run the groove the length for the bottom, correct?
> 
> Thanks again Hoppy, I really really appreciate it.


You can set the dado head to cut .25 inch deep, then you cut all of the groves without changing the dado head setting or depth, including the groove along the bottom. It is a little harder than it sounds, because 1/2 inch plywood isn't 1/2 inch thick, and the tongue has to be slightly smaller than the groove. But, one trial cut or series of cuts on scraps, and you are set to go. As I recall, I always had to back off the dado depth a bit to make the rabbet, because of the thinner than 1/2 inch plywood. But, it takes only 3 setups, and the bottom groove is very non-critical if you use 1/4 inch hardboard for the drawer bottoms, since it is a true 1/4 inch thickness.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

IN

He did build a box and then put the front on it. 

Some day I will learn how to do all that drawing stuff on the devil box. . .but not for a while.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

lumpyfunk said:


> IN
> 
> He did build a box and then put the front on it.
> 
> Some day I will learn how to do all that drawing stuff on the devil box. . .but not for a while.


Take a look at SketchUp. It is a free, 3D or 2D drawing program that is offered from Google. They have a great community and can use other people's drawings in your own. For example, there are some people out there that have built libraries of PVC fittings so you can plan your plumbing and so on and so forth. All the drawings on this thread (or mine I should say) are all using SketchUp. I have also drawn the layout for my backyard, my son's room, my son's bed, and a bunch of other items. They have great tutorials that will walk you through how to use it as well. Did I mention it was free? 

Enough of my pitch for SketchUp. You can get it here: http://sketchup.google.com/

Or just read about. Thanks again for your help and input, it is greatly appreciated!


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Well guess what, I actually worked on the stand today!

My friend and I got the plywood necessary for the bottom of the tank, the face frame, and the one side which will be covered. The face frame was made from 23/32" Arauco plywood that I picked up from Lowe's. The bottom was made from 15/32" plywood. We just put it through the table saw to get all the pieces to the right length. The side and the face frame will be joined together at a 45 degree bevel so the plywood plies will not show through.

The face frame was joined together using pocket holes and screws and it will be attached to the stand using biscuits and glue to avoid having to fill in any holes. We played around with some stain today and I think I might do a combination of dark walnut and cherry finishes to give it a dark overall color with a hint of red.

As far as the doors go, I have not decided on whether to purchase or to build. A guy in town is selling oak doors for $3-$7 which is SO much cheaper than building. I do not know the sizes however and he has not got back to me. We shall see.

Sorry for no pictures as of yet, but I should be able to get some tomorrow.

I will need to post the new plans for the double stand as things have changed because of a HUGE error on my part. The 135 gallon I thought I had is actually a 125 gallon which means the height of the tank does not equal that of the 90. Therefore I will not be butting the tanks up against one another but separating them with a small cabinet where I will keep my supplies and my CO2 tank. I do not have the full design setup in Sketchup, but hope to get to that this weekend as well.

So there you have it, actual progress!! And none too soon. My Geophagus sp. "Bahia Red" have paired off and the larger male has all but killed the two other males. I had to move them to other tanks so they could grow their fins back. As it sits today, they will have to go if I am to keep the pair. Anyone out there interested in these fish? They are approximately 5" long each. I have one pair and one male up for adoption. I would love it if someone here in Albuquerque could take them. They are acclimated to my water (pH of 7.5-7.8 and a KH of 6) and they actually breed in it. The only thing is they get territorial. Anyway, if anyone is interested locally, PM me and I can give you all the info.

Sorry for the dissertation, expect some pictures tomorrow.


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Well let me just start out with some curse words: #[email protected]## %^#$^ &@$%!$$ !#!$!

Good, got that out of the way. So A) I suck at cutting wood on a table saw, B) Norm makes biscuit joints look easy, they are not, and C) We got the side done and that is about it. 

All of that being said, at least we got something done and here are the pictures to prove it. The side panel and front face are going to be biscuited on, but the panels are warped and not cut _exactly_ square so it made things interesting to say the least. More than likely we will take a flush cut bit on a router to finish everything off. I have got to get better with the table saw. The thing is SO wavy. Most of our time was spent remeasuring it all. It was a huge pain in the rear.

Anyway, on with the pictures.

Face frame all glued and screwed together.









Look at that wave!









Biscuit slots....









Biscuits in slots...









Why it is good to have friends with LOTS of clamps....









And a shot of the wavy 45 degree angle.









Next week we hope to do the front. The guy with the doors never got back to me so it may be back to Lowe's for some wood to build the doors.

Stay tuned!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Glad to see some progress. roud:


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

intermediate_noob said:


> n above, I am REALLY concerned about finding straight wood. What do you all think?



Straight lumber is easy stop looking at 2x4's and upgrade to real wood go to Lowes/Home Depot/Menards and look at there southern yellow pine 2x12's which have less knots and are much straighter just rip them to size. 

And instead of using 4x4's rip the boards down to 2x4 size (if you want) and then laminate them together after cutting mortises into them for the long stretchers which you can laminate full 2x12's into the mortises. If you really want to you could drill through the tenon's and put a lag bolt in it for a bit more strength.

- Brad


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

So what's the best way to get a good square cut on a 2x if you don't have a miter saw? I have a table saw, but cutting an 8' 2x4 is a bit of a challenge... Circular saw? Rip saw by hand?


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## sick lid (Jan 13, 2008)

Clamp a framing square to it, or screw another piece to it to act as a fence for your circular saw.


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## DorianBrytestar (May 26, 2009)

all cuts depend on the stability of your work surface. If you are trying to hold the wood up and cut it at the same time, it will never be quality stuff. 

You need a good work table, stops and the wood stable to make a good, solid, repeatable cuts.

For detailed stuff, I have a scrap piece of plywood on top of my work table. I then adjust the blade on the circular saw to be just a hair longer than the wood I am cutting. Set up stops and/or clams to hold the wood and go to town cutting through it.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Makes sense, thanks! :smile:


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

Wasserpest said:


> So what's the best way to get a good square cut on a 2x if you don't have a miter saw? I have a table saw, but cutting an 8' 2x4 is a bit of a challenge... Circular saw? Rip saw by hand?


Something like this will work as well:

http://www.woodworkingtips.com/etips/etip030228ws.html

or

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=howTo&p=Build/CircCrossCut.html&rn=RightNavFiles/rightNavHowTo

If you are going to cut a lot of 2xWhatevers then something like this is the way to go. I just happened to be given a Miter saw so I use it, but have used one of these before and sometimes its easier. Hope that helps as well.


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## c_sking (Aug 4, 2008)

Biscuits in slots...









I am no wood worker but painting a biscuit defeats the point of it. They are supposed to swell with the moisture of the glue to get their strength. Or was this just in the way  Well I guess the gorilla glue would not be as mandatory, anyway have a good day


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## intermediate_noob (Jan 23, 2007)

c_sking said:


> I am no wood worker but painting a biscuit defeats the point of it. They are supposed to swell with the moisture of the glue to get their strength. Or was this just in the way  Well I guess the gorilla glue would not be as mandatory, anyway have a good day


I do not understand. The biscuits were not painted. We just put in the glue, dropped in the biscuits, filled the other side, and clamped. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm not sure what he meant by that ether but what you did was correct.

- Brad


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