# Please Help The Newbs: Excel Tutorial



## pbohart (Jan 9, 2005)

Hi! Just like my other post, there are lots and lots of posts on this board about using Excel and how well it works.

It is VERY difficult and time consuming to figure out the appropriate process to follow by reading 12 pages of discussion.

Can someone *please* post a tutorial?

1. How much do you dose/overdose
2. How many times a week?
3. Turn off UV sterilizer? filter?
4. Do you keep dosing ferts while doing this?
5. How long? 14 days?
6. Turn off CO2?

Much Apprecaited!


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## Dave_Discus (Sep 10, 2006)

So you add the 13th post...clogging another chunk o bandwidth..
expecting an answer rather than spending 5 minuts reading a thread or using
the search feature...would you like a cup of coffe and a shoe shine too?

Go to rex griggs website and read his section on internet posting.
Rex rulels.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

That's pretty harsh Dave, you're starting to sound like Rex . We do see a lot of questions that are similar, but it is nice to see someone who actually took time to look for the answer. It can be confusing, so let me help break it down for you... 

1. How much do you dose/overdose

The dosing instructions:
On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day. Dosing may be slowly increased in high-growth aquariums. For smaller dosing please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL.

Generally the "initial" dose is considered overdosing. People go anywhere from 2x to 4x the normal recommended dosing, depending on how rough the algae is in their tank. For tanks with no algae, the recommended dosing does just great. 

2. How many times a week?

As per directions, daily or every other day.

3. Turn off UV sterilizer? filter?

UV shouldn't make any difference, and the filter _may_ make a difference if and only if it has active carbon (which generally shouldn't be used in a plant tank), so no, don't bother turing these off.

The exception is when you're direct dosing with a syringe onto plants with BBA. Turning off the filter keeps the water movement down and prolongs the contact of the Excel with the leaves, so it isn't a bad idea to turn off filters when direct dosing. 

4. Do you keep dosing ferts while doing this?

Yes.

5. How long? 14 days?

You should see an improvement within about a week (at least from my personal experiences). Dose until algae is gone, and make sure to get your CO2 and other ferts in line so it doesn't come back. It also doesn't hurt to do preventative dosing every week or so, or continue regular dosing if you want to suppliment your injected CO2. Sometimes Excel is the sole source of carbon, as with nanos too small for injected, so you'll want to dose continuously as per the directions. 

6. Turn off CO2? 

There is no reason to. Definately keep it on! It will help a ton with algae.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Another thing I should add, Excel has been known to "melt" some more sensitive plants like:

Valisneria
Riccia
Anacharis
Cabomba
Pellia
Utricularia
Tonia
Hottonia

and a few others I might be forgetting. Generally the plants that melt don't completely die and they bounce back. Excel is considered safe though - and I wouldn't worry too much about your plants melting. It also seems to be like chicken pox - they only melt from Excel once and then they can be exposed to it just fine with no trouble. This has just been my personal experience.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

well said Jen
....but people shouldn't be lazy...it is all here....


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## evercl92 (Aug 15, 2006)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> and a few others I might be forgetting.


crypts are another


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I don't really think it is lazy. I'm not sure anyone has ever asked if they need to turn off CO2 while dosing Excel, at least not that I remember . Sometimes bringing up a topic again will attract new input from people who weren't around for the original, and it can generate some new ideas. A topic as worn out as discussing the best substrate can still generate unique responses... (though it has been awhile since I've seen any...). Never a waste of time to ask! I'm sure the newbs quickly learn to use the "search" button, but I don't ever fault anyone for asking. 

everclr92 - good call, I did forget to mention crypts.


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## cbennett (Oct 20, 2005)

If i am trying to kill existing algae (like a clump of BBA), then I use the normal "thereafter" dose, and instead of just dumping it in the tank I spot treat the algae areas using one of the pipettes that come with the test kits. Applying it directly onto the algae results in dead algae within three days. I have used this method on anubias, marselia, crypts, tonina and alternanthera with no harm done.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Asking for the "present consensus" about a topic is not lazy at all.

I often repeat things lots and lots on line and better hone the responses by doing this. This helps folks focus and learn better.

They should at least look around which is sounds like they have.........

I've honed the Excel method to the nth degree and can cure any algae issue in less than a week's time without damange to anything other than Elodea/Hydrilla/Egeria.

Not many can say that.

It involved:
Daily water changes(80%)
Blackout (3-4 days)
Excel 1-2x suggested labeled dosage
Turn off CO2, add extra current
Pick, preen and clean good

From there it's entirely environmetal issues if you have it return.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## pbohart (Jan 9, 2005)

*Excellent*

Thanks Jen - very useful post.

Dave_Discus. Post somethign valueable or dont post at all. Head over to the Cardinals website. You wont be missed here.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Just curious Tom, why do you turn off CO2 when dosing Excel?


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## skiboarder72 (Oct 13, 2006)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> Just curious Tom, why do you turn off CO2 when dosing Excel?


yea this doesn't make sense to me either.... we are dosing excel (carbon) but not running the extra carbon from the co2, but instead driving it off by turning up the current? seems to kinda condradict, but i'm sure you have a good reason why


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## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

skiboarder72 said:


> yea this doesn't make sense to me either.... we are dosing excel (carbon) but not running the extra carbon from the co2, but instead driving it off by turning up the current? seems to kinda condradict, but i'm sure you have a good reason why


From what I read here:
"It involved:
Daily water changes(80%)
Blackout (3-4 days)
Excel 1-2x suggested labeled dosage
Turn off CO2, add extra current
Pick, preen and clean good

From there it's entirely environmetal issues if you have it return.

Regards, 
Tom Barr"

If there is no light, then there is no photosynthesis occurring, so no CO2 is needed. (I am just guessing.)


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

JenThePlantGeek said:


> "I don't really think it is lazy. . ."


Just wanted to comment that I agree as for a newbie, especially someone who *has* tried to do the research, it's not so much laziness as it is just being purely overwhelmed!

Sometimes there's just too much information.

Now, somebody coming in and saying they don't fertilize, have no CO2, and have umpteen gazillion watts over their tank and then ask "Why do I have algae?"

They need to be made to cut down a tree with with a herring :hihi:.


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## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

RoseHawke said:


> They need to be made to cut down a tree with with a herring :hihi:.



LMAO :tongue:


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

ROFL RoseHawk! Yeah, sometimes people _should_ know better 

As far as the No light No CO2 when dosing Excel goes, what you said makes sense Anne. That just makes me wonder why turn off the light in the first place? Algae needs light, true, but so do plants, and happy plants means unhappy algae. Soo... why turn off the lights (and thus the CO2) at all? 

The reason I ask is because I've personally had good luck with the lights and CO2 going full blast + dosing Excel. Maybe it would work even better if I turned them off?


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## AnneRiceBowl (May 18, 2006)

Possibly. I guess whatever works. I just usually give the tank a blackout and then do a regular water change, which for me, that's about 50%. I haven't had too many problems with algae with 3 SAEs in the tank. lol


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

ok ok ok so it's not lazy geeesh lol


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Dave_Discus said:


> So you add the 13th post...clogging another chunk o bandwidth..
> expecting an answer rather than spending 5 minuts reading a thread or using
> the search feature...would you like a cup of coffe and a shoe shine too?
> 
> ...


Pretty harsh indeed!

While I agree with most of what Rex says I must have missed that one.

I dislike this point you are trying to put across here and think it is just as wasteful as the input your whining about. :flick:


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## tacks (Jun 19, 2006)

*excel treatment*

I have had my tank for several years and belong to all the planted tank forums I can find. I also have stopped asking questions because of people like DAVE DISCUS and more so REX GRIGGS. They make you affraid too ask a question. and I hope there are spelling errors here as I did not use spell check Rex. These men ruin a good thing. tacks- Ed


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

Let me make something clear - picking on newbies is NOT ok on this forum, but neither is picking on the people who "pick" on newbies. This is a community and we all need to encourage and help each other. This thread is really bothering me but not quite enough to go in and start wiping out posts, though I am tempted. 

Dave and Rex are not the enemy. Rex has done more for this hobby than 20 average hobbysts combined. He is a wealth of good advice and information. Yes, maybe he can be... blunt, but understand that he has probably heard the same question thousands of times. I can say thousands because Rex's post count is up near 7K. Not many others can come even close. He sometimes offends people with his bluntness, but that doesn't make it right to throw it right back at him. Neither behavior is something I would want to encourage here! Oddly enough Rex hasn't even posted in this thread... I think he was brought up when I teased Dave about acting like Rex. What I meant was that he was being blunt and sarcastic. Again though, not quite so much as I was willing to go in and delete it, but enough to irritate me.

I just got done reading through almost every post from Dave_Discus, and he has given a lot of valuable advice, encouragement, and opinions - just like EVERY other member of this forum. We each contribute something. SO. Let's just all get along and be nice... is that even possible?

The point: Be NICE. Be nice to newbs, be nice to curmudgeons. Don't make me kick your e-butt.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> People go anywhere from 2x to 4x the normal recommended dosing, depending on how rough the algae is in their tank.


Jen, two to three times the recommended dosage is the absolute maximum. I personally wouldn't venture past 2xs the recommended dosage. Over that you stand the chance of harming sensitive inverts if you keep them.

I have some stubborn, stubborn algae growing on some Cyperus helferi in my little 38G cube. Try as I might, I just can't seem to do anything about it. 

I am going to give Tom's technique a shot. Go over this with me.

1. I am going to cover the aquarium and black it out for four days. I'll cover it up nice and tight on Friday after work and won't uncover it until Tuesday after work.

2. Big water changes daily

3. Shut down CO2

4. Increase circulation

5. Daily doses of Flourish Excel - off the top of my head 10mls daily

Do I trim off affected leaves before or after the black out?

Should I fertilize during black out?


Mike


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

> Jen, two to three times the reccomended dosage is the absolute maximum. I personally wouldn't venture past 2xs the reccommended dosage. Over that you stand the chance of harming sensitive inverts if you keep them.


The instructions give an initial and a daily dosage. The initial dosage is 5x the daily dosage. When I said 2x-4x the dosage, I meant the daily, not the initial. Is this what you mean too Mike? That'd be a lot of Excel otherwise! I've seen 4x dosage used before with no harm, but it wasn't on a tank with inverts or for an extended period of time. 


How do you plan on doing WC's when your tank is on blackout mode? A small break from the blackout shouldn't hurt, should it? 

I'd still love to hear Tom's reasoning behind shutting off the CO2. If it is simply "Try it - it WORKS" then hopefully you can attest to that! Curiousity has the best of me though...


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

The initial post water change dosage is fine. The subsequent doses on the following days should not exceed 2 to 3 times the recommended dosage when overdosing (this is pretty much explained at length in the stickied thread). Even overdosing 3xs the recommendation can cause a die off in CRS if you are keeping them.

I figured I'll give Tom's method a try. Like I said, the only plant that is really suffering is the Cyperus helferi and _some_ Anubias leaves. Seems like this is a good time to give it a shot.

Water changes should be pretty easy. Just uncover the top of the aquarium a bit and go to it. I wonder how much Excel to really dose. The recommended initial dose with each daily water change or just the 2x over does with each change. 

I went ahead and covered the aquarium with some black plastic bags. Sides and top. I turned off the CO2 and shut of the UV. I bumped up the out flow on my 2126 so there is more water flow. I'll start doing water changes tomorrow and dosing Excel as well. 

Mike


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Momotaro said:


> The initial post water change dosage is fine. The subsequent doses on the following days should not exceed 2 to 3 times the recommended dosage when overdosing (this is pretty much explained at length in the stickied thread). Even overdosing 3xs the recommendation can cause a die off in CRS if you are keeping them.
> 
> I figured I'll give Tom's method a try. Like I said, the only plant that is really suffering is the Cyperus helferi and _some_ Anubias leaves. Seems like this is a good time to give it a shot.
> 
> ...


Interesting thread. How did it work out Mike?


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

What are the chances of getting rid of Algae in a non heavily planted tank with no c02?


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## skiboarder72 (Oct 13, 2006)

LGHT said:


> What are the chances of getting rid of Algae in a non heavily planted tank with no c02?


tough... cut down the light and see if it goes away, add the excel...


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