# Planted Discus



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Don't get your discus too small - try to get at least 3.5" to 4.0" discus to start with, if your budget allows.
Try not to plant too heavily - give your fish some room to move around in, as well as enabling you to clean the tank up properly, and vac up as much and as best as you can. Do frequent, good-sized wcs, and feed 2-4 X a day. ( Daily WCs if you can, otherwise, at least 2 or 3 X per week.)
Try to keep things as simple as possible to start off with - don't get carried away yet with CO2 or other distractions - give yourself time to get some experience with discus under your belt first.
Your lighting may be a touch too bright/intense for the size of tank in low-tech conditions - so keep the lighting period down to no more than 8 hours/day.

Most important of all, be sure to get good quality, healthy discus from a well-known, experienced, reliable, and reputable source - air-shipped in if need be.
That alone will give you a huge head start at being successful keeping discus.
And, if I may suggest, please have a read first of my Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus, located as the first Sticky in the "Fish" section.
Contact me by PM if you feel I can be of any further help - I'll be glad to direct you to good sources for getting quality, healthy, well-shaped discus.
All the best to you in being successful with these magnificent fish !
Regards,
Paul


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you! I do have some of the same concerns you have. This is my first Discus tank, but I have kept a reef tank for years now. My RO system should allow for frequent water changes. I am concerned with low GH and KH with my RO water.


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## Redmar (Feb 20, 2007)

bif24701 said:


> Thank you! I do have some of the same concerns you have. This is my first Discus tank, but I have kept a reef tank for years now. My RO system should allow for frequent water changes. I am concerned with low GH and KH with my RO water.


You should remineralize your RO water.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Low GH and KH should not present any particular problem for the discus - however, it may be a slight concern from the plant growth & development standpoint - not something I would worry about much, though. The discus are your primary concern, or should be.
Just for you to get some idea, here's my 75 gal low-tech planted discus tank.
The water out of our tap here is quite soft, with low TDS's, and producing low GH & KH level conditions. pH in my tank generally sits at a very stable 6.4 or so (from 6.8 to 7.0 right out of the tap). I do occasionally add Seachem Equilibrium for balance & GH purposes, but don't seem to have any particular problems in any event.
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011
Hope this helps with your thinking.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

The discus are my primary concern, I think I'll have to use RO water due to high TDS and prevent algae problems. Rememeralize with equilibrium should do the trick. 

What a beautiful tank you have. I see you use white silica sand, is that a cap? Are their sponsor breeders on this forum that I could look at for purchase in a few months when ready?


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## aXio (May 29, 2011)

Paul is giving you some great advice. Also you might want to consider keeping plants in terra pots instead of in the substrate. At least for now. That way you can pull them and get around them during cleaning. Or completely remove them quickly if they are starting to die off. Also if you want to keep smaller discus I recommend going bare bottom until they get bigger for cleaning purposes. 

My best advice I can give... as many water changes as you are willing to do. ESPECIALLY if you plan on going smaller then 4".


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> The discus are my primary concern, I think I'll have to use RO water due to high TDS and prevent algae problems. Rememeralize with equilibrium should do the trick.
> 
> What a beautiful tank you have. I see you use white silica sand, is that a cap? Are their sponsor breeders on this forum that I could look at for purchase in a few months when ready?
> 
> ...


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I plan on using liquid fertz as well. PFS looks great and low cost but I am really wanting the black look, however I've heard of problems with peppering showing using a dark substrate. Do you have any insight on that? Thanks again. 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Nothing wrong with black substrate - many like it as a matter of personal preference.
However, black substrate will not only cause many discus to pepper (not appealing to the purists) - particularly any pigeon-blood based strains & hybrids, but also many light, pastel colored fish - reds, pinks, yellows, oranges, ---- and generally also causes almost all discus to darken their coloration to some extent, sort of 'in sympathy' with their surroundings.
To me, that's not preferable - I want my discus' coloration to pop and show up to it's best advantage.

One further thing - and you may find this to be a bit of a 'laugher' - but black sand doesn't show the dirt/detritus/feces, etc. nearly as much as lighter substrate - many say that's real good - but, here's the laugh, folks may not admit it, but because they can't see the crud, some tend to lighten up on their cleansing, vacuuming routines, perhaps not realizing that doesn't help the discus since the water conditions don't get maintained nearly as well - make any sense to you ?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Bleh.. Try to water change daily. You'll be dissatisfied with the black substrate after a while, your discus will always look dark, you'd be surprised how pretty they can be when they lighten up. What else what else, RO isn't needed, tap water would be fine. Try to change water daily in large amounts. Feed the fish often, very often, baby them. Try to change water daily.. Plants and discus don't mix unless you are experienced with both, as I will assume discuspaul is. They just will never grow as well as they would without plants. Try to change water daily. Ferts are junk with discus, you'll be changing water daily, that'll add up quick redosing every day. Discus and nitrates don't mix, you should probably change water every day.. As was stated get quality discus as large as possibly, they'll be more tolerant when you don't do daily water changes. Be prepared to be upset on simplydiscus if you mention your fish are sick and you've got a planted tank, they'll hurt your feelings. I know there's more, I just don't remember. High protein high water changes.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Not that this has anything to do with this post...however, in one of my tanks I have straight sand (well, black diamond) for substrate...no dirt, no nothing. It is easily the cleanest, and easiest to clean tank I own. Instead of planting it like the rest of my dirt tanks I have been playing around with potted plants Like _aXio_ said. It and it's working really, really well. 

If (when according to Paul) I get discus this will be how I run that tank. 

Got to Hobby Lobby or wherever and get the smallest little clay pots they have. If you find the small ones, they are short enough to be hidden (covered) by your substrate, depending on the amount of sand you have naturally. 

Many many benefits. 
You can plant the plants in dirt (they like that) with out "dirting" the tank.
You can fertilize them easier (root tabs into the single pot).
You can rearrange the plants everyday if you want, as you get new plants or as plants grow.
You can easily remove all the plants from the tank for a thorough cleaning/vacuuming. 
You can move them easily from tank to tank, sell them easier...etc. 

It's the bee's knees. I have half a mind to redo my 90 like this. The only real down fall I can see thus far is you wouldn't really be able to grow any kind of carpet, but still you can make some nice "floral" arrangements. Who put's carpet in a discus tank anyways. :hihi:


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## ThinkTank (May 24, 2011)

TWA said:


> .... You'll be dissatisfied with the black substrate after a while, your discus will always look dark, you'd be surprised how pretty they can be when they lighten up. .


I have black sand with discus and this is true. I started with 5 in a 55g and had to seperate a few when they got bigger. Huge difference in coloration when I moved them from the black substrate to white.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Ok, ok I'm convinced! Im going with PFS and I like the potted plants idea. My wife want to go to hobby lobby to look for them. 
Purchased Fluval 406
I was really happy with the 305 and the cost is right.
Also purchased AquaticLife 48" 2X 54 watt T5HO. 


Is there a warm water plant list that is good for discus tanks, 84~ Degrees. 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

bif24701 said:


> Ok, ok I'm convinced! Im going with PFS and I like the potted plants idea. My wife want to go to hobby lobby to look for them.
> Purchased Fluval 406
> I was really happy with the 305 and the cost is right.
> Also purchased AquaticLife 48" 2X 54 watt T5HO.
> ...


Non of my plants seem to mind the temp. I run my angel tank at 82 with swords, crypts, dwarf sag, hygro, and a few others. Better let someone smarter in the plant department chime in though...I just kind of wing it in that regard. 

The potted plant thing is pretty neat, but think outside the box. I've used small glass pots as well, not only the regular clay kind. Might even be able to find some decorated ones and work some sort of theme...or just bury them, lol. When I do the pots, if I use dirt, I "cap" the top of the pot with whatever I'm using in the tank for substrate to keep the dirt in. Thus far it's been working well for me.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Shoot. I was hoping to see how to plant discus. And how well they bloom.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I sure will cover the pots, I'm not interested in seeing them. I'd like to keep it as close to a natural look as possible 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Discuspaul,

Is your sand really that white? Or a light tan? Where did you purchase it?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> Discuspaul,
> 
> Is your sand really that white? Or a light tan? Where did you purchase it?
> 
> ...


Yes, my sand is really that white. 
I get it here in Vancouver, B.C. from a large pool supply store - it's a no-name brand white silica quartz-based PFS
(likely from stone quarried here in B.C. or Alberta).
The pool filter sand carried by pool supply stores can vary a great deal depending on the region where the stores are located in N. A.
It can vary a lot in color, grade, size, density, and freedom from dust and grit. In some areas I'm told it can be almost impossible to find white sand. You may need to do a lot of searching & inquiring in order to find some, if that's what you want.
Many pool or spa supply stores do carry off-white shades, or light tan colors that are lighter-colored than beach sand, or even light grey sand.
Hope you find something you like.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

bif24701 said:


> I sure will cover the pots, I'm not interested in seeing them. I'd like to keep it as close to a natural look as possible
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


Too bad discus don't live around plants in the wild!  the reason for potted plants is so that you can move it. If you aren't able siphoned every speck of the sand at some point (moving plants around ect) the water quality will fall. Discus are terrible for water quality, and they don't do well with terrible water quality. What is your water change schedule looking like?


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TWA said:


> Too bad discus don't live around plants in the wild!  the reason for potted plants is so that you can move it. If you aren't able siphoned every speck of the sand at some point (moving plants around ect) the water quality will fall. Discus are terrible for water quality, and they don't do well with terrible water quality. What is your water change schedule looking like?


I haven't put water in it yet but I will have a lot of filtration and large daily water changes are possible. At least 3-4 weekly


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Sure their natural aquatic environment would be quit difficult to replicate however. Clay pots certainly would fit well in my tank. I must have some plants in this tank. 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Yes, my sand is really that white.
> I get it here in Vancouver, B.C. from a large pool supply store - it's a no-name brand white silica quartz-based PFS
> (likely from stone quarried here in B.C. or Alberta).
> The pool filter sand carried by pool supply stores can vary a great deal depending on the region where the stores are located in N. A.
> ...


I remember finding pearly white play sand at lowes for my son a few years ago. I'm sure it must be silica sand, I'll test it to be sure. I think it will look good if I can find it. 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Well it looks like that play sand will be entirely to fine. So I found PFS that is a nice light tan color. It's very nice and not so small to be vacuumed out or create anoxic areas. 

I will need a very good gravel vac, suggestion?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

A regular siphon will do fine. There isn't anything special about siphoning sand. Hover over the area, sucking up the nasty, then you can put it in the sand and stir it up.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I have a black knife I've had for over a year, I'd like to put him with my discus. Do you foresee problems?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

People have done it. It isn't recommended I can't remember why though. Head over to simplydiscus. Someone there has done everything you could possibly to do discus.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thanks!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Much more qualified to answer than here.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> Well it looks like that play sand will be entirely to fine. So I found PFS that is a nice light tan color. It's very nice and not so small to be vacuumed out or create anoxic areas.
> 
> I will need a very good gravel vac, suggestion?
> 
> ...


As you seem to know, play sand and pool filter sand are not at all the same thing. Play sand is much dirtier, has more dust and grit, and must be very well rinsed, many times before it clears up. It's also much finer grained and not nearly as dense as PFS, so it may become free-floating when disturbed, and can end up clogging your filter and impeller assembly.
It is also very easily siphoned up, so you can't do a proper vacuuming job with it.
Even PFS will get siphoned out if you to try to vacuum with simple siphon tubing. Get yourself a proper wide-mouthed vacuum tube - there are many good varieties available @ LFS's. The density of PFS will not allow it to get sucked up with a proper vac - it may float up into the vac tube an inch or two, and then tumble right back down. Play sand will get sucked up no matter what you use to vac.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> As you seem to know, play sand and pool filter sand are not at all the same thing. Play sand is much dirtier, has more dust and grit, and must be very well rinsed, many times before it clears up. It's also much finer grained and not nearly as dense as PFS, so it may become free-floating when disturbed, and can end up clogging your filter and impeller assembly.
> It is also very easily siphoned up, so you can't do a proper vacuuming job with it.
> Even PFS will get siphoned out if you to try to vacuum with simple siphon tubing. Get yourself a proper wide-mouthed vacuum tube - there are many good varieties available @ LFS's. The density of PFS will not allow it to get sucked up with a proper vac - it may float up into the vac tube an inch or two, and then tumble right back down. Play sand will get sucked up no matter what you use to vac.


I got confused too but he decided against play sand. I should have clarified, as stated, a normal gravel vac with work. I used the term siphon because many people call it just that. But yes, PFS Is better than play, never use play sand, gravel vac, and listen to discus paul, he knows what's going on.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

On a slightly different note here, Im not sure what you guys are saying but it sounds like a planted tank causes bad water quality? Isnt that a little off in reasoning? I have a heavily planted tank and it simply has the best most clear water ever, and as for dirty bottems, heck, anyone ever heard of corys? Thats how a friend of mine keeps his discus, heavy planted and corys. works wonders.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> On a slightly different note here, Im not sure what you guys are saying but it sounds like a planted tank causes bad water quality? Isnt that a little off in reasoning? I have a heavily planted tank and it simply has the best most clear water ever, and as for dirty bottems, heck, anyone ever heard of corys? Thats how a friend of mine keeps his discus, heavy planted and corys. works wonders.


Uh huh.. Seeing as you sound to have no experience with discus it doesn't seem reasonable you would be replying. Discus are messy eaters, they eat a ton, produce a ton of waste, and ruin their quality worse than plants could every fix. 

Cories do not eat waste, that's common knowledge so all they will do is eat left over food. Which, will cause issues down the road as cories aren't meant to eat 3 times a day of heavy protein food like discus. You can't plant a tank enough to keep up with discus, it's been argued many times on other forums. I'm sure your friend has, you definitely can. But your fish will suffer in quality. They won't grow to be as large, they won't grow to have that great discus shape they should have. They'll suffer from diseases much easier, and run the risk of dying when maintenance is not kept up with. Having plants should not cause the owner to believe their water quality is better than it is. Water changes should still be often and in large amounts, unless this happens quality and fish will suffer. Beginners with discus think of all sorts of theories and ways to keep discus when it's been proven it works a certain way. If you are willing to work for it, you can make plants and discus work, it just isn't easy and isn't recommended for beginners.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Ive kept fish with much the same motabolizem as discus and yes actually plants keep up very well, as for corys, i have over 2 dozen of different species and i assure you then eat everything they come across. Regular water changes is understandable but really Ive never seen any reason to do them more fequently then four days apart even with 20 mbuna in close quarters. Maybe with all the waterchanges and so on youve never let your tank fully mature and let it deal with excess ammonia and the like


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Mbuna are much more forgiving than discus. You don't understand what I'm saying, and that's okay. Just because they are similar in the amount they need to eat ect, doesn't mean they are close to the same fish. 

Most fish are forgiving of water quality. You can let it get out of hand and they will survive, thrive. It's been proven with juvenile discus that if they are neglected, for even two - three days with no food, no water changes, you will not grow them to their potential. I'll assume you've heard of stunted fish, which is common with discus in planted tanks no matter how large the tank is. Water quality and therefor growth suffers. 

You're comparing discus to fish in general and it just isn't true, there's reasons they are not for beginners.

I care about quality fish and quality advice, that's the only reason I'm even replying to you. If you've got no experience with the fish why even post..


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

TWA said:


> Uh huh.. Seeing as you sound to have no experience with discus it doesn't seem reasonable you would be replying. Discus are messy eaters, they eat a ton, produce a ton of waste, and ruin their quality worse than plants could every fix.
> 
> Cories do not eat waste, that's common knowledge so all they will do is eat left over food. Which, will cause issues down the road as cories aren't meant to eat 3 times a day of heavy protein food like discus. You can't plant a tank enough to keep up with discus, it's been argued many times on other forums. I'm sure your friend has, you definitely can. But your fish will suffer in quality. They won't grow to be as large, they won't grow to have that great discus shape they should have. They'll suffer from diseases much easier, and run the risk of dying when maintenance is not kept up with. Having plants should not cause the owner to believe their water quality is better than it is. Water changes should still be often and in large amounts, unless this happens quality and fish will suffer. Beginners with discus think of all sorts of theories and ways to keep discus when it's been proven it works a certain way. If you are willing to work for it, you can make plants and discus work, it just isn't easy and isn't recommended for beginners.


Couldn't have said it better myself.

And kribkeeper - you do appear to have a lot to learn about discus.
Ive have planted discus tanks with Cories for years, and I can tell you that Cories will not eat, or in any way dispose of, crud, detritus, decomposing plant matter, or fish feces, and that's what creates the problem when trying to keep discus successfully.
Planted tanks require a lot more clean-up work to rid the tank of those elements which can and do produce an unhealthy, unsafe environment
for discus - water quality is prime and that's what large, frequent wcs are all about if you want to keep discus alive & thriving.
Check out the simplydiscus.com forum - you'll quickly realize what we're talkng about.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Er no I ment in the overall waste mbuna produce, its much the same, as far as I can tell from watching discus a lot. And Im not compareing discus to fish in general, Ive just found a lot of evidance that they arnt as hopelessly fragile as most people think, I mean I hate to keep useing 'my friend' as a refrance here but we had a 2 day poweroutage a few weeks ago and his tanks went from 84 to 59 degrees with no waterchanges or filters, two days. Doesnt that sort of defy the "rules" of discus? And he was keeping juvies too. 

I dunno. Seems like a lot of overrated stuff about them.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> Couldn't have said it better myself.
> 
> And kribkeeper - you do appear to have a lot to learn about discus.
> Ive have planted discus tanks with Cories for years, and I can tell you that Cories will not eat, or in any way dispose of, crud, detritus, decomposing plant matter, or fish feces, and that's what creates the problem when trying to keep discus successfully.
> ...


Thanks I have, Ive also found just as much, countering what you guys are saying. Maybe thats just what i WANT to think but theres a lot of hard evidence ether way. Tell you what, in severall weeks ill Pm you afer i get MY discus this sunday.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't agree with kribkeeper, it seems he has misunderstood how differ discus care is. I have kept a heavily stock reef tank with SPS for over a year now and I can tell you that I foresee more daily work(not expense) with my Discus. I have the sand, however now I have decided against it for the time being. Until I have mastered the upkeep routine. It will involve many things. Like where so I store 50 gallon of water for water changes? Rinsing my filter media weekly? Using an filter intake predicted sponge. Cleaning in and around plants. Feeding and nutrition lessons too.

Maybe in six months after I've mastered all that I think I may go to substrate if in not happy with BB. 

I will have plants but I'll put them in pots or secure them to wood. 




5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Er no I ment in the overall waste mbuna produce, its much the same, as far as I can tell from watching discus a lot. And Im not compareing discus to fish in general, Ive just found a lot of evidance that they arnt as hopelessly fragile as most people think, I mean I hate to keep useing 'my friend' as a refrance here but we had a 2 day poweroutage a few weeks ago and his tanks went from 84 to 59 degrees with no waterchanges or filters, two days. Doesnt that sort of defy the "rules" of discus? And he was keeping juvies too.
> 
> I dunno. Seems like a lot of overrated stuff about them.


Point taken, however there is a large difference in surviving and thriving.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

bif24701 said:


> Point taken, however there is a large difference in surviving and thriving.
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


True, Ive just heard a lot of "If it goes below 77 degrees they are going to die" or "if you forget a waterchange one day they are going to die" recently. I mean its not like if there is a single speck of dust they are gonna die on you. 

Anyway I didnt ean to have SUCH an upset so im sorry but i think theres more then one way to keep a fish happy.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Keeping juvies for two days without anything won't kill them.. You'll see suffered growth in the long run, not that you'll be able to tell. PM me in sixth months; hopefully they turn out well, but they won't grow to their potential in a planted tank. No chance to argue that. The guy above me is speaking proper, until you get the hang of it bare bottom is the right way to go, then add some substrate when they're grown, then start with plants.
Discus survive all sorts of conditions, but they will not thrive and grow to potential unless it's optimum. No hard feelings, I'm not offended. It's moreso I want to make sure to anyone else reading this thread you should not slack with discus. They are work.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Thanks I have, Ive also found just as much, countering what you guys are saying. Maybe thats just what i WANT to think but theres a lot of hard evidence ether way. Tell you what, in severall weeks ill Pm you afer i get MY discus this sunday.


Not to belabor this discussion, but I for one would very much like to see or hear of the 'countering' or 'hard' evidence that you're talking about.
I've never seen any, and I've been fish-keeping for over 50 years, and discus-keeping a lot of those years as well.
Please get your experience with discus under your belt first, before posting what you 'know', or think you know, about keeping discus.

I don't mean to be harsh, but after you get your discus this week and have kept them for a few weeks under the conditions you seem to think will work for you, you can bet I'll be one of the first to step up and try to help you deal with what will likely be your sick and ailing discus at that point.

If you're getting discus soon, krib-keeper, and you haven't already read it, I would urge you to have a read of my Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus, located here as the first Sticky in the 'Fish' section.
And yes, you are correct about one thing, discus are hardier fish than many people believe, and are not difficult to keep, so long as you get healthy, good quality stock to begin with, and be prepared to work a little harder to religiously maintain higher quality tank and water conditions, on an ongoing basis right from the get-go.
Best of luck to you.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> True, Ive just heard a lot of "If it goes below 77 degrees they are going to die" or "if you forget a waterchange one day they are going to die" recently. I mean its not like if there is a single speck of dust they are gonna die on you.
> 
> Anyway I didnt ean to have SUCH an upset so im sorry but i think theres more then one way to keep a fish happy.


I have never read those two statements, nor has anyone made a statement similar on this thread. I can see the point your are trying to make. I just think that more though goes into these fish than other freshwater fish.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

kribkeeper888 said:


> True, Ive just heard a lot of "If it goes below 77 degrees they are going to die" or "if you forget a waterchange one day they are going to die" recently. I mean its not like if there is a single speck of dust they are gonna die on you.
> 
> Anyway I didnt ean to have SUCH an upset so im sorry but i think theres more then one way to keep a fish happy.


The people who are saying things like that don't have a clue what they're talking about when it comes to discus.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Not to belabor this discussion, but I for one would very much like to see or hear of the 'countering' or 'hard' evidence that you're talking about.
> I've never seen any, and I've been fish-keeping for over 50 years, and discus-keeping a lot of those years as well.
> Please get your experience with discus under your belt first, before posting what you 'know', or think you know, about keeping discus.
> 
> ...


I was also avoiding being harsh, but I will also step up should a problem occur. Sorry if I seemed harsh, posting on discus with no experience is one of those things you just don't understand until you get them.

Best of luck to you.


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## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

The daily water changes are not about water quality but removing the growth inhibiting hormone discus naturally secrete to ensure they don't outgrow their environment, and so the larger, healthier males dominate.

If your plants can absorb the hormone, maybe. I haven't read anyone successfully accomplishing this, which is why I choose fish without such a natural mechanism.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Paul can contest to this, I have done lots of reading and asked many questions. I know my discus will be healthy but to be honest I am curious to see how they grow out. I hAve a heavily planted tank running a Sump setup. tank is still turning over about 9-10 times an hour. that being said I am still vacuuming my tank at least twice a week and doing 30-40% every two days. 

Discus are definitely more tolerant but as mentioned above water changes remain nessecary

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

jsuereth said:


> The daily water changes are not about water quality but removing the growth inhibiting hormone discus naturally secrete to ensure they don't outgrow their environment, and so the larger, healthier males dominate.
> 
> If your plants can absorb the hormone, maybe. I haven't read anyone successfully accomplishing this, which is why I choose fish without such a natural mechanism.


I have not read that! Thank you. 
I plan on buying adult discus, 5, in my 55. How often and how much water changes would you suggest? My plan is every other day a water change of about 80%. Well that's the plan.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## D3monic (Jan 29, 2012)

bif24701 said:


> I have a 48" 55 gallon I'm plan to put 5 small discus in. This will be a planted low tech tank. My filtration will be a Fluval 406 and a marineland emperor 400. I will have 2 3/4" of brightwell black substrate with ~1mm particle size. I am looking at low cost lighting, maybe an aquaticlife 2x54w T5HO. My temperature will be 84 degrees. Aquascape with wood and rocks.
> 
> Question: what problems do you foresee and what suggestions would you have?
> 
> ...


Where did you get the brightwell substrate? I couldn't find any place selling it.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

jsuereth said:


> The daily water changes are not about water quality but removing the growth inhibiting hormone discus naturally secrete to ensure they don't outgrow their environment, and so the larger, healthier males dominate.
> 
> If your plants can absorb the hormone, maybe. I haven't read anyone successfully accomplishing this, which is why I choose fish without such a natural mechanism.


Incorrect.... There is no such thing. Water changes of large volume are meant to keep FRESH WATER flowing through the aquarium and to remove detritus. Thats it.. When you talk about discus its completely different from any other fish and you need to know a lot more than what so and so said..

As I read through this almost every person that doesn't or hasn't actually physically raised discus and came out with a good end product might I add is doing the same thing... Stop beating around the bush and take in the facts, theres no two ways about it. I had 6 discus in a 75g tank with a eheim 2217 running on it and only a sand bottom. I would change 10g water daily when syphoning poo/food and do a 50% twice a week and guess what-- the bottom still had [censored][censored][censored][censored] on it and this was just bare sand with nothing at all to hide food and crap. Again as people have not so straight forwardly said- You cannot raise discus in a planted tank to their full potential. If you buy perfectly healthy adult fish you will spend at minimum 100$ for each one and there health will still deteriorate unless you are superb at your cleaning. Discuspaul is a perfect example- sand bed with swords and a few others so that it is very very easy to clean. If you think there is another way you do not know what your talking about.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

jsuereth said:


> The daily water changes are not about water quality but removing the growth inhibiting hormone discus naturally secrete to ensure they don't outgrow their environment, and so the larger, healthier males dominate.
> 
> If your plants can absorb the hormone, maybe. I haven't read anyone successfully accomplishing this, which is why I choose fish without such a natural mechanism.


I too have read articles by learned discus people that the continual replenishment of fresh water does beneficially have an effect on a growth inhibiting hormone seemingly secreted by discus, and I believe there is truth to that. 
But to say that water changes are not about water quality is incorrect in my experience. Water changes produce many other beneficial elements in keeping discus healthy and thriving - among others are - assisting with the removal of developing ammonia and nitrites, as well as nitrates - a high level of the latter which can also be harmful to discus; removing waste, decomposing foods, etc., and other detritus from older water; assisting to keep other undesirable elements low, e.g. TDS's - in keeping with the conditions maintained in the natural environment of discus in the wild, where their genetic tendenciess have been habituated, and so on.

The proof of that pudding is to keep discus in a tank with wcs being done only once a month say, and see how long you can keep them alive and healthy, not to mention limit their growth.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> I too have read articles by learned discus people that the continual replenishment of fresh water does beneficially have an effect on a growth inhibiting hormone seemingly secreted by discus, and I believe there is truth to that.
> But to say that water changes are not about water quality is incorrect in my experience. Water changes produce many other beneficial elements in keeping discus healthy and thriving - among others are - assisting with the removal of developing ammonia and nitrites, as well as nitrates - a high level of the latter which can also be harmful to discus; removing waste, decomposing foods, etc., and other detritus from older water; assisting to keep other undesirable elements low, e.g. TDS's - in keeping with the conditions maintained in the natural environment of discus in the wild, where their genetic tendenciess have been habituated, and so on.
> 
> The proof of that pudding is to keep discus in a tank with wcs being done only once a month say, and see how long you can keep them alive and healthy, not to mention limit their growth.


Jack watley said that discus produce that but its only his opinion. Theres no such fact of it paul. Come on now you know this


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I didnt buy the brightwell substrate though I love it for another planted tank I would like to do. My LFS offered it to me. I read up on it and was impressed with it. Then I saw the results of it in a friends tank and I was truly impressed!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Although I have no proof, I too agree with the pheromone theory regarding discus stunted growth. I don't do many water changes on my 90, full of angel fish and one rescue discus. The angels started out smaller than him, he has remained roughly the same size while the angels have surpassed him. 

Granted they are more aggressive in the "hunt" for food...but I overfeed like crazy, he is by no means starving. 

2 cents...


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Daximus said:


> Although I have no proof, I too agree with the pheromone theory regarding discus stunted growth. I don't do many water changes on my 90, full of angel fish and one rescue discus. The angels started out smaller than him, he has remained roughly the same size while the angels have surpassed him.
> 
> Granted they are more aggressive in the "hunt" for food...but I overfeed like crazy, he is by no means starving.
> 
> 2 cents...


thats because discus are more sensitive than angle fish. Get altums and put them in the same scenario, they are more sensitive than regular angelfish and will die in a day.


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## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

discuspaul said:


> I too have read articles by learned discus people that the continual replenishment of fresh water does beneficially have an effect on a growth inhibiting hormone seemingly secreted by discus, and I believe there is truth to that.
> But to say that water changes are not about water quality is incorrect in my experience. Water changes produce many other beneficial elements in keeping discus healthy and thriving - among others are - assisting with the removal of developing ammonia and nitrites, as well as nitrates - a high level of the latter which can also be harmful to discus; removing waste, decomposing foods, etc., and other detritus from older water; assisting to keep other undesirable elements low, e.g. TDS's - in keeping with the conditions maintained in the natural environment of discus in the wild, where their genetic tendenciess have been habituated, and so on.
> 
> The proof of that pudding is to keep discus in a tank with wcs being done only once a month say, and see how long you can keep them alive and healthy, not to mention limit their growth.


The point I'm trying to make, is I don't care if you're growing an acre of hydroponic vegetables with a discus tank, and your Nitrates are 0 ppm always. You still need to do water changes. There's no "magic" low-maintenance discus tank. No matter how good a filtration you have with your plants, or how awesome a cleaning system you have, you can't get around water changes with discus. So if you want low-maintenance, choose a different fish.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

zchauvin said:


> Jack watley said that discus produce that but its only his opinion. Theres no such fact of it paul. Come on now you know this


Yes, I certainly agree that it's only theoretical and opinion-based - but other very knowledgeable people besides Jack Wattley have said the same thing, and remember, I said ....'I "believe" there is some truth to that hypothethis.
The evidence of my experience (and my belief in the above) is simply that, if you try raising juvie discus, particularly in a planted environment, while limiting wcs to any degree, you will almost always get a significantly larger percentage of discus whose growth is limited, or shall we say, become 'stunted', than if you were to raise them in a BB tank with large daily wcs.
Been there, done that, seen the results.
Your point is well taken, though.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Don't know about all you other folks, but I find this thread to be an interesting, healthy, lively discussion, with civility and without malice of any disturbing kind, but I feel for the OP bif who may feel his thread has not turned out the way he might have wished or envisioned. Apologies, bif.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Thank you Duscuspaul, 
I also like the discussion and wouldn't hear of interrupting it. I am a member of other forums and many of my threads have stoked great thought. To no credit of myself, I love these threads. My questions have been answered and then some. This is why I chose to post my thoughts openly and have them diced up. Now my thoughts are clearer and more focused on my goal!
Thank you all.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

See I guess my thing about discus is that i KNOW you guys will hate me for it but I like plants better then fish in most cases so my plants get the best care and the fish do very well also. I will be raising juvie discus (2-3) inches but I will not do bare bottem and I wont do waterchanges more then once every 2 days. Ok my main thing about them is im on the second floor and hauling 15 gallons of water around takes some real time and energy, not to say im slacking and dont care about it. I always feed all my fish the best quality food and so on (mostly frozen food with some omega one). And I do agree with Jsurereth, it doesnt matter how good your cleaning system is, you need waterchanges because the water will get "worn out" and old I guess after a while. But, on the other hand, being a real planted tank sort of person, plants really are essentially living filters,[censored]and when you have several 2 foot sword plants I think the water stays "fresher" longer. Also with my well water I have high levels of iron and other trace nutiants so it really helps my plants also. (And also I do disagree about what you say about corys but we shall agree to differ, non the less, they always succeed in sturring up anything on the bottem and thats instantly sucked up by my emperor 400s) So even when i had huge amounts of fish in my tank i never had any [censored] or plant particals laying around.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I find it healthy discussion. I've heard of the hormones, but only in fry. When first grown its to help some succeed while others suffer. There's of course no evidence but it seems logical and believable that fry have that issue.

Krib, as with most you'll do what you want. People have offered their help and knowledge in this thread, your tank will suffer. Why spend $30 a fish when you don't care about them as much as plants? Buy a cheaper fish, no one will want to see the football shaped fish you produce. You are not understanding anything about discus you are just grouping them in with other fish just assuming they need a little more water changes. 15 gallons every other day isn't enough, hands down. I do wish you the best, but I've read too many posts on novices to discus that put them in planted tanks and wonder why things didn't go well.

We will continue to point those that are willing to learn in the right direction.. Best of luck to you Krib, you'll need it.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> I find it healthy discussion. I've heard of the hormones, but only in fry. When first grown its to help some succeed while others suffer. There's of course no evidence but it seems logical and believable that fry have that issue.


I havent ether but thats not to say it isnt true, I know for a fact that when I have done more frequent waterchanges on small tanks in particular that the fish will be bigger


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Edited my previous post to continue my message for krib


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Well, anyway, maybe Ill prove you wrong maybe not. Thanks for the advice on this and Ive asked many of the same questions on different forums with different discus people who would agree with what Ive said and diagree with you. Ill just have to find out for myself really. Im somewhat suprised you havent ever read of people who keep discus in planted tanks but I dunno.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I've read all about it. Please go to simplydiscus and argue with them. Those are veterans. Been keeping discus for years and years. They know how it goes and they'll be a lot more rude than anyone here was. You won't prove anyone except yourself wrong.. Good day. Good luck.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

So Krib, if you like plants better than fish, then you really shouldn't try to keep discus.
All the experienced discus pros will tell you that in the case of expensive fish like discus, the fish should always be the primary focus and come first, not the plants.
But as TWA said, it appears you'll do only as you wish to do, based on those things you have heard, that you only wanted to hear.
And unfortunately, you won't prove those who know better wrong, you will just 
very likely invite serious problems keeping discus, especially 2"-3" ones.
But all of the best to you in any event. We're here to help when things start to go wrong - and they likely will - that is, if you'll admit to it.

I've kept discus in planted tanks many times, and for a long time, at times not so successful in the earlier days, but getting much better at it - but not without continuously putting in a lot of extra work and careful attention to the fishes' well-being, as well as following a few simple 'rules' about keeping discus.
Perhaps you might care to have a look:
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

discuspaul said:


> So Krib, if you like plants better than fish, then you really shouldn't try to keep discus.
> All the experienced discus pros will tell you that in the case of expensive fish like discus, the fish should always be the primary focus and come first, not the plants.
> But as TWA said, it appears you'll do only as you wish to do, based on those things you have heard, that you only wanted to hear.
> And unfortunately, you won't prove those who know better wrong, you will just
> ...


:iamwithst

:biggrin:


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Well when things do go wrong Ill come running lol. But if you HAD to keep them in a planted tank what would you do?


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Well when things do go wrong Ill come running lol. But if you HAD to keep them in a planted tank what would you do?


Sand substrate of some sort. No dirt. Low light tank that doesn't need additional fertilization. For the plants, I would "pot" them in very small pots that I could hide under the sand. In said pots I would use dirt, capped with whatever you end up using sand wise. Plant selection would be limited, but that is the nature of the beast. You could do some hygro, swords, vals, crypts...etc.

This way you are able to give the tank a proper cleaning without uprooting the plants...merely removing them "pot and all". The low light is simply because I personally wouldn't want to pay the fertilization bill on a tank that needs so many water changes. That and discus don't really dig bright lights. I use dirt in the plants pots to provide the nutrients I wont be providing via fertilization. 

That's what Brian Boitano would do anyways. :biggrin:


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanks, I might end up getting another tank then. not sure


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Very well said, Daximus - btw, I miss your previous avatar - thought it was great.

To add to what Daximus said, I would get no less than 3.5" to 4" discus to begin with, or larger if the budget allows, of the best quality I could find, from an experienced reputable source for supplying good quality, healthy, well-shaped discus.
Then maintain as large & frequent WCs as you can muster, e.g. no less than 2 or 3 X weekly @ 50% or more, coupled up with a good subtrate vac, tank wipe-down, and general tank cleansing routine with each wc, with particular attention to the filtration media rinsing/replacing & filter cleaning & maintenance.
I would recommend using filter floss in your filter(s), along with fine mesh pre-filters on the filter intake tubes. Regular plant trimming & pruning wouldn't hurt, and moderate dosings weekly with just enough ferts of your choice to keep the plants happy.
Feed a varied diet several times a day, small amounts each time, just what the fish can consume in about 2-3 minutes.
That's about all I can think of just now.
Hope it helps you.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Im thinking of buying a aqueon water changer. That should help with doing 30 gallon water changes 3-4 times a week possibly lol


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Apologies to bif for messing up his thread, that's for sure! Side note discuspaul, beautiful tank, notice the spotless sand substrate, beautiful.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Im thinking of buying a aqueon water changer. That should help with doing 30 gallon water changes 3-4 times a week possibly lol


I just bought a 50' from amazon!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> Apologies to bif for messing up his thread, that's for sure! Side note discuspaul, beautiful tank, notice the spotless sand substrate, beautiful.


Yeah I really messed up your thread. Sorry bout that


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Very well said, Daximus - btw, I miss your previous avatar - thought it was great.
> 
> To add to what Daximus said, I would get no less than 3.5" to 4" discus to begin with, or larger if the budget allows, of the best quality I could find, from an experienced reputable source for supplying good quality, healthy, well-shaped discus.
> Then maintain as large & frequent WCs as you can muster, e.g. no less than 2 or 3 X weekly @ 50% or more, coupled up with a good subtrate vac, tank wipe-down, and general tank cleansing routine with each wc, with particular attention to the filtration media rinsing/replacing & filter cleaning & maintenance.
> ...


Where could I find the fine mesh prefilter you are suggesting for the intake of the filter ?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> Yeah I really messed up your thread. Sorry bout that


Well of I had intended it to be some kinda build thread maybe it was a bit, but I never did. In fact, I'm learned a lot and can't wait to unveil my tank in two months...... LOL


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

My prefilter is just filter floss you can buy at a pet store or at hobby lobby. Polyester fiber. I rubber band it around the intake and just pull it off and rinse it out during water changes!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> Where could I find the fine mesh prefilter you are suggesting for the intake of the filter ?
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


Well, many people buy 'small mesh' sponges, and cut and shape them to fit well over the end of their filter intake tubes.
I just buy the cylinder-shaped Fluval Edge fine mesh pre-filters, usually available at PetSmart stores for under $2.
I use AquaClear HOB 110 filters on my discustank, and the Fluval Edge sponges fit well on all the AC filter tubes, except perhaps their smallest filter.
I would venture that they would fit on the intake tube of many types of filters.
They are great for assisting to produce crystal clear water when used along with filter floss and Seachem Purigen. And they greatly reduce the frequency need for cleaning/rinsing/replacing filter media, by preventing everything but the smallest particulates from getting into the filter compartments.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

What is a good example of a water conditioner? Some are very pricy Seachem prime 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Prime is the best, only one cap takes care of fifty gallons of water. Can't argue with that 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> What is a good example of a water conditioner? Some are very pricy Seachem prime
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


To be very candid, although some discus purists would disagree and tout using nothing but Prime, I've tried many, and imho just about any conditioner is fine & does the necessary job.
The least expensive I can find is TopFin - 16 oz. container, usually for under $10. - Doesn't foam up, smell, or add any color like some do (which shall remain nameless.)


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

zchauvin said:


> Prime is the best, only one cap takes care of fifty gallons of water. Can't argue with that
> 
> Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


That is awesome. A gallon should last awhile with 40-50gallon daily water changes.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Yep 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I use prime, buy the jugs to save yourself money. There's also seachem safe that's basically the dry form of prime. I used API tap water conditioner but I used it in the winter and it didn't take care of the ammonia in the water. Fine for most fish, nearly killed my discus. Had them flopping around like flounders, jumping out the water. My oh my. Up until the winter stuff worked perfectly. Really it's up to you. They all look fine unless you get real wintry weather.

Winter = chloramines in water
Chloramines = chlorine and ammonia
Conditioner = no chlorine. Ammonia.

Basically adding ammonia into the water. If its not winter, it doesn't matter. If it is, watch out for ammonia


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Water conditioner doesn't neutralize the ammonia? Is ammonia in tap water normal? I'm not home to test it at the moment 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Normal water conditioner doesnt. The ammonia comes when you break the chloramine bond and release chlorine and ammonia. Water conditioner gets rid of chlorine but not ammonia. Usually it isn't a problem, as I changed water on all sorts of tanks during the winter using regular dechlorinator. But discus are too sensitive to ammonia. 

If this is too confusing just say so, on my phone I just kind of get going and don't pay attention to what has been said. 

Basically in the winter you need a conditioner that gets rid of ammonia if you live in a cold area.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TWA said:


> Normal water conditioner doesnt. The ammonia comes when you break the chloramine bond and release chlorine and ammonia. Water conditioner gets rid of chlorine but not ammonia. Usually it isn't a problem, as I changed water on all sorts of tanks during the winter using regular dechlorinator. But discus are too sensitive to ammonia.
> 
> If this is too confusing just say so, on my phone I just kind of get going and don't pay attention to what has been said.
> 
> Basically in the winter you need a conditioner that gets rid of ammonia if you live in a cold area.


You mean like prime? I totally follow you, if something is over my head I don't like that so I do further research. 

Wow, I don't need that problem so prime it is! I'm sure it will be great for my African Chiclids too!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I'm not trying to market prime or anything just telling you why I use it. If something else gets rid of ammonia it would work fine. Prime just kind of does it all?

I've only used prime or API dechlorinator so I don't know much about others. All I know is in the winter its a must for me to use prime. Never looked into anything else, ha!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Please don't be confused here, Bif.
Any de-chlorinator is just that - it basically diffuses the toxicity of chlorine, and to a lesser extent chloramines, which are generally not a problem at any rate.
There is very little, if any, ammonia in tap water, so that's generally not something to be concerned about when using a water conditioner.
Your bio-filtration, by whatever means it may be, will accomplish the task of de-toxifying ammonia & nitrites.
Point here being, there's little need to use an expensive 'conditioner' like Prime, just because it may also have the effect of neutralizing ammonia as well.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Discuspaul I'm just sharing my experience. I've had discus be poisoned by ammonia because I was using something that doesn't get rid of the ammonia. It all depends on the amount of chloramines in the water. 

I was using regular dechlorinator, which broke chloramine and put ammonia in the water. It's something to be concerned about when there's extra chloramines in the winter. 

Just looking out, as I used to use stuff that wasn't getting rid of ammonia until I woke up to 6 discus laying on the bottom of the tank and swimming upside down.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Sorry to hear, TWA, that you woke up to 6 discus laying on the bottom of the tank and swimming upside down, but that may not have been due to the presence of toxic-level ammonia per se, and if it did, it wasn't at all likely to have been caused by using a conditioner other than Prime.
As for a regular de-chlorinator breaking chloramines down and putting ammonia in the water, quite frankly I've never heard of that. I'd like to read the experienced thesis that describes that - perhaps I have something to learn here.
If it was ammonia that affected your fish that way, I seriously suspect it was not from the use of a regular conditioner that somehow managed to produce ammonia from chloramines, but for some other reason and source, such as, just as an example, overfeeding and decomposing food, or some other ammonia-producing occurence, that your bio-filtration level just wasn't up to dealing with at that point in time.
I have honestly never heard of a case of sufficient ammonia in tap water to do what occured in your case, nor of any conditioner producing ammonia by breaking down chloramines - that's news to me. As I said, I'd like to read a scientific report to that effect.
My apologies if I have offended you, but I'm at a loss here as to what you are saying.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Discuspaul, no worried about offending me. Are you aware of what chloramines are? Also, what area are you located in?

It has nothing to do with insufficient water changes, as I change water before I go to bed. Water changed, lights go off. When I woke up to this, I changes more water, believing that, clean water will fix any problem. It did for a while. A few hours later it happened again, and again after I changed more water. 

I finally called my local discus breeder and asked if he had seen anything like this, he told me he runs into this problem every winter with his discus, and advised me I needed something to get rid of ammonia. Stop doing water changes for today and dose something that gets rid of ammonia. That's what I did and it solved my issue. Ever since I haven't had any sort of problem. This was discussed on a local forum.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Also I hope not to offend you. I consider our discussions helpful to you, I, and anyone else who reads them. Different experiences, different views. It's good for others as well as us if one of us can teach the other something.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes, I'm aware of what chloramines are, and that they also do not carry the toxicity to fish that chlorine does, nor have I heard that they 'break down' to produce ammonia.
I'm in Vancouver, B.C. - where the tap water is 7.0 pH or less, quite soft, and with little TDS's. Chlorine, or even chloramines, are not heavily used, even in the winter months (mild winters - very little snow & cold).
Do they treat water in Kansas City in such a way as to throw off a good deal ammonia right out of the tap ?
Even if so, I can't envision Prime being able to deal with that on it's own, and being the sole saving grace in de-toxifying the ammonia you mentioned was the cause of your discus's problems. 
However, please lead me to the discussion on this that you mentioned was on another forum - perhaps I have something else to learn here.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

In KC they do add that many chloramines to the water come winter. It happens especially during times when there's a lot of water main breaks to keep chlorine in the water so bacteria doesn't live ect ect, as we know. If the chloramine bond is broken, being chlorine and ammonia, and the dechlorinator can take care of chlorine, what's left? 

I'll look for the discussions. One of which was just a warning with added chloramines and one was describing my problem with the breeder chiming in later and clarifying the issue.

It wasn't much of a discussion as the aquarists here in KC are well aware of chloramines and the amount KC throws into the water. 

Simple way to look at it, chloramine breaks in two. One part is taken care of, the other (ammonia) is left over. 

The issue will never be ran into if you're somewhere where the water companies do not throw Chloramine into the water crazy like, as well as if you don't have discus. Most fish will be fine with the elevated amounts of ammonia, while discus will not. 

It was an issue a few in the fish club ran into during previous winters, both of which were breeding discus and realized + agreed that this is what happened.

I feel like the toxicity depends solely on the amount of chloramines (which you admit to being very little where you are) and the sensitivity of fish (discus being in question)

If it wasn't discus, I'd be with you, dechlorinator is dechlorinator

Also to add, I was double dosing prime when the ammonia situation came up. I didn't realize the dosing instructions, ha!


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Heres a quick write on Chloramines from a member, note he lists the need to remove ammonia after breaking the bond.

http://www.kcfishclub.org/forum/74-water-chemistry/41688-chloramine.html

I cant find the other posts about it but this gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. I'll keep looking.

One about added chemicals (Not important) and the high level of chloramines in the water

http://www.kcfishclub.org/forum/74-...-an-epidemic-of-broken-water-mains.html#47254

Maybe its a KC thing!

Basically is there a chance that of theres an added level of chloramines in the water, if that bond is broken and chlorine is taken care of, you dont believe the left over ammonia levels could be enough to prove toxic to a sensitive fish like discus?


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Interesting reading. This is why I love this hobby, so many things to consider and research. It never ends.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Of course if it doesn't get cold and wintry where you are it doesn't matter as you wont have a ton of chloramines


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## Kadina (Feb 13, 2009)

I just want to thank everyone who has posted in this thread. I've been tossing around the idea of setting up a discus tank for a long time and this thread has been very informative.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TWA said:


> Of course if it doesn't get cold and wintry where you are it doesn't matter as you wont have a ton of chloramines


I see, well I live in Phoenix so no, it doesn't get cold. But the water is bad, very. I think I may just get the prime for peace of mind and it seems to be more concentrated 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Best discus dry food and frozen?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I use tetrabits, my discus love them, with frozen blackworms or bloodworms, depending on which I grab. Almost any discus will eat worms, they're a little more picky about dry. Ask whoever you get them from. That way you'll be sure to know what works when you get them!


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

i feed them all.. FLAKES, frozen, tetra bits, freeze dried.. and live


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Warlock said:


> i feed them all.. FLAKES, frozen, tetra bits, freeze dried.. and live


Variety, check! 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

bif24701 said:


> Variety, check!
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


LOL>. FYI.. it did not happen over nite!!! takes time for a few of the foods to be accepted.. TANKS are all different


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah I gave up on flake. No matter how much I tried I couldn't get it done. They'll live off worms and tetrabits for me!


----------



## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Frozen aren't a problem.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Another question, with the Fluval 406, I was thinking of putting polishing pad before the bio media, that way it would all stay cleaner and all I would need to do is replace the pads rinse the bio media lightly. The rest of the compartments will have Ehiem substrate ceramic bio balls. What do you think of this set up?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I think I just set it up based on the diagram, I would recommend a prefilter, something to go over the intake. Will really cut down on maintenance and help with water quality.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I ordered the Fluval edge prefilters I think will work well. I'm not a fan of the stock set up. I don't need carbon and I only have bio media in my planted tank now. It works very well! Put I want the polishing pads to help remove organic particles.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Oh I replaced carbon with filter floss, ha, now I remember.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TWA said:


> Oh I replaced carbon with filter floss, ha, now I remember.


Before or after the bio media?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Hell I don't know. I think both, filter floss the 2 ceramic medias then more filter floss. I haven't looked in my filter for a month or so. The prefilter keeps it cleann.


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## TMarquis (Mar 6, 2012)

*Discus Water*

I currently have 3 pairs of F3-from-wild blue discus that spawn every 10-15 days if I let them. The only way I can keep them from spawning is to separate them into different tanks. If I simply put a divider between them, the females will still lay their eggs on this time schedule. If I leave the babies with the parents until they reach 1"-2" in height, the parents will still spawn, even while tending babies.

All of these discus have plants in their tanks - mostly Italian vallisneria in pots with potting soil which has no additive. One tank is fully planted with "Carib-Sea Eco-Complete" substrate. I inject Florapride liquid fertilizer into the pots, that have potting soil, with a hypodermic syringe on a monthly or bimonthly time schedule. I use rainwater which is filtered before use and supplemented with RO water when rainwater is not available. I change 50% of the water on a daily basis. Temperature of the discus tanks are 84-86 degrees F. Both plants and fish are doing extremely well.


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Way to go, TMarquis - you sound like my kind of person ! lol


----------



## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TMarquis said:


> I currently have 3 pairs of F3-from-wild blue discus that spawn every 10-15 days if I let them. The only way I can keep them from spawning is to separate them into different tanks. If I simply put a divider between them, the females will still lay their eggs on this time schedule. If I leave the babies with the parents until they reach 1"-2" in height, the parents will still spawn, even while tending babies.
> 
> All of these discus have plants in their tanks - mostly Italian vallisneria in pots with potting soil which has no additive. One tank is fully planted with "Carib-Sea Eco-Complete" substrate. I inject Florapride liquid fertilizer into the pots, that have potting soil, with a hypodermic syringe on a monthly or bimonthly time schedule. I use rainwater which is filtered before use and supplemented with RO water when rainwater is not available. I change 50% of the water on a daily basis. Temperature of the discus tanks are 84-86 degrees F. Both plants and fish are doing extremely well.


This confirms my thoughts that planted tank can truly be successful. Potting soil in the pots sound cool, I wonder how you keep it in the pot however.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW, while not wishing to re-open a topic that may be somewhat controversially delicate, and perhaps totally uninteresting to some folks, I've undertaken a reasonable amount of research on the biological and chemical properties of chlorine, chloramines, and ammonia.
I have very little understanding of chemistry, and I found the reports to be quite hard to follow & fully understand, but I felt I did get a few snippets of understanding out of them, to this effect:
If I understood correctly, it seems that the 'breakdown' of chloramines to re-produce ammonia, results in a minor amount of ammonia (NH3) residual, but much more so a production of ammonium (or ionized ammonia - NH4), which is far less toxic to aquarium fish under most circumstances.
In fact, it can be and is quite safe for fish at a wide range of pH levels.
At least, that's how I understood it.
This is borne out, for example, by the ammonia charts in the Nutrafin Master Test Kit (which I have), where the back page chart shows that ammonia (what I believe describes ionized ammonia, or ammonium - NH4) up to 1.2 ppm is in the green, safe (non-toxic) area when in water with a pH of 6.0 to 7.8. The chart goes on to show that even @ 7.3 ppm, it is non-toxic for fish @ pH of 6.0, up to 7.0
What I think I got out of this is that, unless the chloramine levels in your municipal water systems are extremely high ( i.e. above what would normally be recommended by health & sanitation experts in the field), then there seems to be little risk of ammonia (NH3) production upon break-up of chloramines being sufficient to pose a toxic risk to fish.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't know how to explain my situation then. All I know is I had enough ammonia in my water to poison the fish. Even doing 2 75% water changes and running a fluval 405 that had been set up for months and there was still enough ammonia to poison the fish.

Paul I'm still not understanding the argument. Are you just saying that because you havent heard of it it isn't possible?

This is one of those things pretty well known in KC because our water company throws a ton of chloramine in the water during winter; especially when there's water main breaks. I'm thinking logically. Ammonia + chlorine = chloramine - chlorine = ammonia.

Despite what's said Paul, I will believe whats been said by those here in KC, I will respectfully disagree as I don't understand how my theory is off. 

How is this chloramine being broken into ammonium? That's what I'm not understanding I suppose. Ammonium isn't toxic, I'm aware of that, but why is chloramines breaking into ammonium. Send me a PM if you don't want to clutter this thread, one of us has something to learn, and we are both stubborn! Ha! No hard feelings Paul. I appreciate you taking the time to research this.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

TWA -No, I'm not saying, at all, that just because I haven't heard of it, it isn't possible.
And your theory is not off. 
In fact, from what you've told me, it appears that the K.C. water authority is putting in a lot of chloramines into the system, more than normally being used in other municipal systems, and that high level may well be producing a toxic amount of ammonia (NH3) on breakdown, or break-up, whatever one wants to call it, and that, coupled with a pH higher than 7.0 for example (you haven't ever mentioned what the pH is coming out of your tap, that I recall), could very well have been lethal to your discus.
Not arguing with you at all, just simply stating what I feel I understood from doing my research.
Hope this explains things.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

P.S.
And the reason why chloramines may breakdown into primarily ammonium as opposed to ammonia escapes me - that wasn't clear to me in the reports I read. Perhaps a chemical reaction I didn't understand. It seems it had a lot to do with the pH level of the water at the time the chloramines were put into it, i.e. that the acidity of the water had something to do with whether or not more ammonium was re-produced, rather than ammonia.
But I may very well be wrong.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Oh I'm good, you know that. My ph out the tap is around 8.0 with TDS around 300 is what I've been told. I know the the ph is around 8.0.

The ph being around 8.0 would add on to the toxicity of the ammonia: this probably should have been noted from the beginning.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Well that seems to fully explain your experience and the misfortune resulting from it. Perhaps we can now let this matter be put to rest.
Best of luck in future TWA.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Too true. Thanks Paul, and whoever the OP was to let this carry on as long as it did!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Thanks for bearing with us, bif !


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I want to thank bif for not only dealing with Paul and I, but also showing the willingness to learn and ask questions. That is huge when dealing with discus, coming in with an open mind willing to change your set up based on others experiences. Asking every question you can and not questioning (for the most part) the answers given. 

You'll do well bif, keep me updated. Don't hesitate pming Paul or I, i can't speak for both but I would be more than willing to answer you.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

TWA, Paul,

This is what love about a good forum and why I join. I'm an glad that my post created such thought. I will post my updates here on the forum so please subscribe to this thread. I've learned with my reef tank that good planning and an open mind make all the difference. Many of your suggestions I have already taken into my plan. Thank you both!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I've purchased a large bottle of Prime water conditioner. How long do I need to let it mature/ mix prior to adding it to the tank?
5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Mix with water? I do it almost immediately.. Like 15 seconds. It should be okay.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes, the neutralizing function of the conditioner is immediate.
You can add conditioner prior to, or as you re-fill the tank, during re-filling, or right after doing so.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

i prefer SAFE.. that that is powder version of PRIME


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

The difference is I can buy prime by the 2L for $30 but I've got no access to safe. Id have to pay retain for safe, no thank you...


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Wait! I can just fill my tank, straight from the tap? As long as I add prime prior to filling?!! This is awesome! 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

bif24701 said:


> Wait! I can just fill my tank, straight from the tap? As long as I add prime prior to filling?!! This is awesome


i add it after i pull the water out then i filler up


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

No buckets! No trash can! Just drain into the sink and fill from the tap. WOW, you can see how I've been conditioned from reef keeping. I was think it would have to sit over night. My wife will be please.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Some discus keepers will tell you to age. I haven't. Fish are perfectly healthy. Easier on me and my space


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## Fishies_in_Philly (Dec 8, 2011)

thanks to the OP for this thread, man, did i learn a LOT!! i always knew discus took a great deal of tlc, but wow. when i clicked on the link, never in a million years would i have thought i would have learned so much that my brain would hurt!!LOL you folks know your stuff, that is for sure. but what i admire is your dedication. so much work, and it does pay off. Paul, those discus are unbelievable!! beautiful coloring on the stripe in the eye, and the nice bright red eye of it's tank mates. thanks discus guys, it's been a looong, but fascinating read!!
Bill


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

bif24701 said:


> No buckets! No trash can! Just drain into the sink and fill from the tap. WOW, you can see how I've been conditioned from reef keeping. I was think it would have to sit over night. My wife will be please.
> 
> 
> 5+ Aquariums
> Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


Usually yes, that's it, bif, normally it's just that simple and a no-brainer.
Just a small note however, before you get started with your discus and your wc routine -
Get your tank filled up & running with filtration - 
Test the pH of the water straight out of the tap.
Then bucket up some tap water and let it sit overnite to gas off, then test that water the following day, and see how close it is to the reading straight out of the tap the day before.
Then as a final check, test for the pH of the water that's been sitting in the tank. If those 3 readings do not reflect a significant change in the pH levels, you should be good to go.

The readings from point a) - from tap, then b) in aged water bucket, to point c) in tank running for a while, will very likely have changed, but not much more than approx. .8 to 1.0, -less than .8 being preferable. If the difference is more than 1.0, I would suggest you need to age water for 24 hours with which to do your wc's.
You ok with this explanation ?


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

discuspaul said:


> Usually yes, that's it, bif, normally it's just that simple and a no-brainer.
> Just a small note however, before you get started with your discus and your wc routine -
> Get your tank filled up & running with filtration -
> Test the pH of the water straight out of the tap.
> ...


I am, this will ensure that the gases trapped in the tap water and the display tank are so far off that a water change will change the water chemistry too much. I'm sure the CO2 in the house is high as we have to keep the windows closed in the summer. I have a hard time keeping my PH up in my reef tank sometimes. I will check this as soon as possible.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Oops- mistake in my previous post which I have since edited. Should have said '...less than .8 being preferable'- not '.08'


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

Not that my input is really needed, but I figured I'd add it anyways  

I've got 6 juvie discus growing out right now. It's been a great experience so far. I'm loving watching them grow up. When I got them, they were ~2 inches and now they're ~3. Today I noticed how my smallest of the litter is finally getting his coloring and isn't pale anymore. It got me all giddy to watch him while he swam around.

I do believe that discus are very sensitive to their environment. But they're also some pretty tough fish. Who wouldn't have to be if they lived in the amazon. I gobbled up as much information about them as I could in any forum or website that I could find. It helped a lot. Automatically when I got them, I was semi prepared for what to do and what to expect. Any other time I'd be freaking out if a fish was swimming sideways or was just idling at the bottom of the tank at an angle. The best help for me on knowing if something is wrong with them is their color. It can go to an almost jet black color. It's easy to see them change quickly and with a lot of variation when they are pecking. Mine just started working on their pecking order. They seem to be rather lazy about it and not enforce it all the time. Mostly it's the largest 2 that do it. That was another thing that had me googling like that!

My fish were from a rescue. I don't know how bad they'll be when they're fully grown, but I won't mind in the least. I think they're beautiful fish. When you read everywhere that it's better to keep your water stable than to buffer it and treat it, follow that advice. I use dechlorinated tap water for my tank. My ph and gh are way up there. And I mean way up there. 

They are a cute and quirky kind of fish. I have mine in my living room. They're not shy anymore. They were when I got them. Now they'll keep swimming around the tank even if my dog comes and sits his butt near the tank. Not even during water changes do they hide. It's quite the opposite >.< they keep on swimming, I have to nudge them to move over just so I can siphon food from spots. They'll start swimming around my arm and the tube like they're sharks. Sometimes they'll even nip at me. These fish are pigs. They should change the phrase, "eats like a pig" to "eats like a discus" since they're little eating machines. If you have juvies and you don't have time to feed them the 6 times a day, or you're in a rush, you can still give them easy to feed food. What I mean is, tetra bits or flakes (I use Omega One). You can set up an automated feeder with those in there if you need to. Mine get frozen beef heart that I mixed up. I put in it all the other food that I give them. I think it makes it easier since they know the taste of the bits and flakes and they'll gladly chomp it down. 

There's just a lot of little things to the care for this fish. Water changes are key. So is food. About half an hour after I feed them, I siphon out the leftover food (what little is left) and then suck up 2-3 gallons each time. I do that each time they eat. Once a week I'll also do a 50% water change also. I don't know what the water changes do exactly for them, I just know they like them *shrug* and that's good enough for me.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Excellent post, Psionic !
I dearly wish that all other wanna-be discus-keepers would do it the way you have - would save them a lot of grief, in my estimation.

Your discus are obviously behaving like they're completely comfortable, and that's the way you want to have them, to be successful keeping them. My hat's off to you.

And that light bantering of pecking order you speak of is completely normal, and will last for their lifetime - no need for anyone to ever get bent out of shape about it.

As well, the comments in your second to last paragraph are right on the mark - that's why I call my discus, 'my hogs" ! LOL
Keep up the good work and best regards,
Paul


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

When I first got them, I had the tank light off for almost 2 weeks. But even if they were scared, I had to keep changing the water. They got used to it I suppose. Now they don't care. The discus are the dither fish in my tank. Hatchets and cardinals will run off and hide, the discus will just keep gliding along. 

The pecking order isn't so bad once you realize it. People say "pecking order" and you know it's going to happen. I hadn't seen pics or videos of it, so that was kinda cruddy. I'll admit now that some of it is kind of cute. The butt smacking is adorable. Another fish comes near them and they'll swing their back end at the other fish to hit him to go away. It's interesting to watch. 


-Val


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Is it ok to fill the pots with fresh organic potting soil.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

A lot do, yes. Organic, no chemicals! Maybe test it out on some guppies or something to make sure it's okay. It should be though


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

The tank will be well cycled before fish. I'll keep some small fish a month before adding my discus.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

bif24701 said:


> Is it ok to fill the pots with fresh organic potting soil.


I've seen several people say they mix in gravel or sand with their dirt so that it doesn't clump completely and leaves space for water to flow through. Also, use sand as a topper above the dirt. If not it can get messy. Or at least that's how it got in one of my tanks. 


-Val


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Update!! Water and plants!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

It looks good!


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Decided to add about a 1" of sand on the bottom for looks. This should be cleaned weekly easily I hope. My wife has done all the work to this point. Other than the research, haha. But it dose look pretty good and the plants should grow out pretty well.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

You have a nice start there.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

It looks nice, watch out for nasty catching up in the rocks. I had a rock sitting in the bottom and every time I shifted it I had a lot of stuff under it that would shoot up. It looks lovely, but as you clean it it'll probably shift, move, won't look as nice. You'll probably rearrange it every week!


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## Psionic (Dec 22, 2011)

For those with substrate, how do you clean their slime off it? Or is it ok to collect down there? Or does it not collect well on substrate?


-Val


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

yeah, to the op.. those rocks might cause you problems, they hold a lot of detritus around them


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Never noticed it. My tank is just completely bare with like a quarter inch of substrate. If you clean it regularly there's way it could build up.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

zchauvin said:


> yeah, to the op.. those rocks might cause you problems, they hold a lot of detritus around them


Do you think weekly cleanings will reduce this threat? I mean full cleaning!


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

No, well I mean when I had rocks in mine I did daily siphoning of the substrate and it helped but anytime you move the rocks you will find more

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Be very careful when you move the rocks. Slowly. If you move them fast nasty will just plume up and get everywhere. They look very nice though


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Video! Fish!

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/09e5a521.mp4


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

lol you terrible person, you added sand lol.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

bif24701 said:


> Video! Fish!
> 
> http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/09e5a521.mp4
> 
> ...


Like the tank though! You might watch the skirts. mine used to be fin nippers.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

kribkeeper888 said:


> lol you terrible person, you added sand lol.


Lol, had too, had too! Just enough to cover the bottom glass, I know it's going to be working cleaning it but I have to have it. I would hate the BB honestly.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


----------



## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

I know the feeling though i think im the only person to ever have a true planted tank with only an inch of sand in mine. Works perfectly, 3 inches of substrate just is an invatation for random crud in my opinion. Keep us posted on any updates though!


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

I made reference to how I would plan a planted tank with discus using pots to hold the plants as opposed to standard planting in one of these damn planted discus threads, lol. I have since started the trial and error phase of this project. 

The short of if it is sand substrate, your choosing, that could be thoroughly vacuumed and whatnot. Then very small pots available at Hobby Lobby to plant the plants in. They have pots of varying size, so larger plants could be placed in larger pots. This works out pretty well as you can move, or completely remove the plants during the tank cleaning process. The added bonus is that you can also rearrange the tank on a whim, without negatively impacting the plants...mostly beneficial for the root plants. Another benefit is that it's now possible to plant plants in dirt, within the pots, without negative impact on the ever so tidy discus tank. Depending on the depth of your substrate, it is my contention that the pots, if arranged intelligently within the tank, could be completely buried in the substrate. Bigger plants that might require bigger pots can be planted in back, and thus buried deeper. Giving the appearance of a naturally planted tank...but with all the perks of simple, vacuumable sand substrate.

Here is a link to the tank. Keep in mind, this tank is still in it's pretty fugly stage. Well, very fugly, lol. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals/169917-30-gallon-potted-tank-low-light.html Take a look at potting methods though. 











I purposely uncovered some of these small pots containing these little crypts so that I could demonstrate what I'm talking about. See the far right is buried, whereas the left is slightly visable. Pay no attention to the upside down pots, I'm using them merely for decoration and structure in this particular non-discus tank. 

Might be something to think about discus folks. :thumbsup:


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

im keeping 4 discus in my 40B plant.
size of fish are from dime size to maybe 2inch.
water change every sat about 50-70%.
have not see any problem with my discus yet.
my discus did get darker duh to the black sand i have.
i have ton of other fish in there as well. 
tank is running like a pro, adding CO2 next week. 
my kh is about 8 drop.
ph from tap is blue, ph inside tank is a nice just right green not to dark not to light.
0 ammo. 

I dont understand why people keep saying keeping discus is hard. I dont see anything hard about it. Keep the water clean and you will be set.

this front and back about bare and plant is full of BS. 

BTW I dont VACC my sand. fish waste is turn into plant food.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

In.a.Box said:


> im keeping 4 discus in my 40B plant.
> size of fish are from dime size to maybe 2inch.
> water change every sat about 50-70%.
> have not see any problem with my discus yet.
> ...


Oh lord I didn't even want to reply but I can't not. Please reconsider what you're doing or do more research or something..

I'm BEGGING you.. This will not work.. There's absolutely no way..


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## gonefishin (Feb 29, 2012)

ok sit back and watch the discus die...
or do alot of research and take heed to warnings, discus can be easy if done properly or a sad sad endeavor if taken too lightly...
good luck... happy fishin...


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

In.a.Box said:


> im keeping 4 discus in my 40B plant.
> size of fish are from dime size to maybe 2inch.
> water change every sat about 50-70%.
> have not see any problem with my discus yet.
> ...


Fishes you have are but a few weeks, maybe a couple months old.
Please report back in a few months with their progress.


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

In.a.Box said:


> im keeping 4 discus in my 40B plant.
> size of fish are from dime size to maybe 2inch.
> water change every sat about 50-70%.
> have not see any problem with my discus yet.
> ...


 
Discus don't actually just die if the condition is not adequate. They slowly waste away. Keeping discus alive isn't that hard (unless you do something drastic), it's keeping discus that thrive that is tought.

Case in point. I gave my 9 years old neighbor two 3" inch discus 15 months ago. He put it in his 29 gal community tank and do WC once month. One is still alive after all this time. Still alive.. but not thriving.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Not to mention dime size is usually only like 3 weeks free swimming. That'll be the first to go.


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## Warlock (Feb 28, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> Fishes you have are but a few weeks, maybe a couple months old.
> Please report back in a few months with their progress.



yep.. would love to see pics in a few months..

infact.. show pic now, to see the improvement over time


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

In.a.Box said:


> im keeping 4 discus in my 40B plant.
> size of fish are from dime size to maybe 2inch.
> water change every sat about 50-70%.
> have not see any problem with my discus yet.
> ...


Those discus will very likely not be around 3 or 4 months from now - probably less than that, if you keep doing what you're doing.


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## ThinkTank (May 24, 2011)

discusonly said:


> Case in point. I gave my 9 years old neighbor two 3" inch discus 15 months ago. He put it in his 29 gal community tank and do WC once month. One is still alive after all this time. Still alive.. but not thriving.


Just curious - after 15months its an adult - how big is the fish now? Seems like stunted growth would be inevitable.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

So I'm looking to add a school of cardinals. That will give me two schools, one black skirts the other cardinals. Then I will allow a month for the tank to mature well before buying my discus. Looking at getting 6 total discus, 3 of two different types. Hoping to get 3.5" or larger. The largest I can afford to buy altogether.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

ThinkTank said:


> Just curious - after 15months its an adult - how big is the fish now? Seems like stunted growth would be inevitable.


It's stunted. About 4.5" in size. Not sick looking but isn't exactly nice fat either. His parent was afraid that the discus would get big like the ones in my tank so I told them not to worry when I gave the kid the discus. I told them that i specifically picked out 2 that would not grow too large.. lol

I know they were feeding the discus with FBW and flakes. I have a feeling baby endlers were it's regular diet as well.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

discusonly said:


> It's stunted. About 4.5" in size. Not sick looking but isn't exactly nice fat either. His parent was afraid that the discus would get big like the ones in my tank so I told them not to worry when I gave the kid the discus. I told them that i specifically picked out 2 that would not grow too large.. lol
> 
> I know they were feeding the discus with FBW and flakes. I have a feeling baby endlers were it's regular diet as well.


Total length right? Not standard..


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

TWA said:


> Total length right? Not standard..


Head to end of tail. That's the only way I measure discus. I haven't come across discus without a tail.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Well yeah but some say discus tails vary in length based on strain etc etc blah blah. 4.5 ain't much for a 15 month old discus, that's for sure. I was asking because if you include the tail that's an extra inch or so..


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

TWA said:


> Well yeah but some say discus tails vary in length based on strain etc etc blah blah. 4.5 ain't much for a 15 month old discus, that's for sure. I was asking because if you include the tail that's an extra inch or so..


4.5" with the tail isn't big at all but there are 4.5" adult discus that doesn't look stunted cause that's the max size it will get.. they are just runt. You have people on SimplyDiscus that are breeding 5" total length discus and those discus isn't going to grow much after that.

The point wasn't about growing discus for size but rather that discus is much hardier than people think. Even when it's not in optimal condition, it will survie.. just not thrive.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

True true and I agree with you.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

So I'm looking to add a school of cardinals. That will give me two schools, one black skirts the other cardinals. Then I will allow a month for the tank to mature well before buying my discus. Looking at getting 6 total discus, 3 of two different types. Hoping to get 3.5" or larger. The largest I can afford to buy altogether.<br />
<br />
<br />
5+ Aquariums<br />
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus



What are your thoughts on this plan? Other schooling fish that are great with discus?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## discusonly (Mar 28, 2010)

Personally, I would skip the black skirts and get some Rummy Nose instead.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Black skirts where not my first choice either however my wife purchased those already. I like the runny nose, do the school? 


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I believe rummy nose are the ultimate schoolers. I've got no experience though.

I can't stand skirt Tetras. But I also can't stand long flowing fins. Who knows.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> I believe rummy nose are the ultimate schoolers. I've got no experience though.
> 
> I can't stand skirt Tetras. But I also can't stand long flowing fins. Who knows.


Being a keeper of both rummys and skirts and most tetras I agree with the fact that yes, rummys are the ultimate schoolers, and I really know the feeling about skirts, they drive me crazy.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

It seems most Tetras after they get settled in they just stop schooling and do their own stuff. Schooling only sometimes. Unfortunate, I really like neons etc


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

If there are big fish in the tanks with them (like angels or discus) they will school a lot more. A better choice for schooling fish that always school are harlequin rasboras or lambchop rasboras.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

To add to the comments about black skirts, while I've not kept them with discus, I understand they can at times be nippers, and I believe they would be active enough to upset discus, so Bif, I would suggest you keep an eye on them.
There are a number of other good schoolers that are compatible with discus besides Cardinals and Rummies - Lemon Tetras are good, as are Glo-Lite tetras, and Head & Tail Lites. Harlequin or Copper Rasboras are also good schoolers that are compatible with Discus.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Couldn't get harlequins to school in a 75 gallon with apistos. Breaks my heart too as I really like them


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I think cardinal and runnies will both look great in that case. I guess availability and cost may determine which I chose.


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

TWA said:


> Couldn't get harlequins to school in a 75 gallon with apistos. Breaks my heart too as I really like them


Thats really weird. I wouldnt have thought you could get them to not school even if you tried


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Nah there is 9 of them doing whatever all scattered out. All different directions. Makes me mad


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Heh, give em a good scare, they will learn how to school pretty fast LOL.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

I hit the glass. They literally spread out in a huge circle spreading outward.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

I think your fish have mental issues lol what other fish are in the tank?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Apistogramma barlowi and nannacara I can't remember the exact species but I recognize the name.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Yeah I know the fish your talking about. Well Im going to take a guess that the size of your tank and the lack of large open swimming fish has put the rasboras at ease.


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Yeah the apistos stick to themselves in their hiding spots.


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Off topic, here is a video of my mixed reef tank. Quality isn't great however. 

http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/5f595baa.mp4


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

No comment on my reef?


5+ Aquariums
Reef, Planted, African Chiclids, soon to be: Discus


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## TheDrake (Jul 18, 2012)

*what?*



jsuereth said:


> The daily water changes are not about water quality but removing the growth inhibiting hormone discus naturally secrete to ensure they don't outgrow their environment...





Daximus said:


> Although I have no proof, I too agree with the pheromone theory regarding discus stunted growth. I don't do many water changes on my 90, full of angel fish and *one rescue discus*. The angels started out smaller than him, he has remained roughly the same size while the angels have surpassed him...


Does anyone have proof (can you cite a peer-reviewed research article published in a scientific journal) identifying a metabolic substance other than nitrogenous wastes (which can in fact be handled by big filters and plants), in any fish species, that do not naturally break down in the aquarium over time, and not only limit the growth of conspecifics or other species but even limit the growth of he who dealt it, like Daxi's sole discus? I've never heard of such a growth-inhibiting factor (not that I know everything!). If it does exist, it must be organic; can't it then be captured by carbon or destroyed by ozone?



jsuereth said:


> I don't care if you're growing an acre of hydroponic vegetables with a discus tank, and your Nitrates are 0 ppm always. You still need to do water changes.


This is disturbing! To me anyway. I would like to keep discus, but I live in the country on a cistern that is supplied by periodic rains. I simply cannot do massive daily water changes. I can probably get away with 33%/week. I was hoping I could address all issues of nitrogenous wastes through large volume, low-stocking density, robust biofiltration, and a nitrate-scrubbing plant sump(55-gal under a 120). But if these mysterious metabolites really do exist, maybe I have lost before I've even begun. I really hope that this is just unsubstantiated mysticism and that no one comes back with concrete evidence otherwise! :frown:


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Keep discus however you want, theyll live but they won't be so pretty. It depends on your preference on what you want the fish to look like.

I doubt there is any sort of research papers discussing this, but there are plenty of threads on simplydiscus where it is talked about by experts with years of experience. 

Poke around there for a while and see how it feels for you


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

I do know that sturgeon raised in captivity do produce a metabolite that is toxic to them and specific to these fish. A specific bacteria has been developed to consume it and they add molasses for the bacteria to help metabolize it. Only reason such research and care is taken on these fish is there value. Discus grow in flowing water so it's imposable for anything to build up. Though its only theory I can see that it's very plausible.





120 gallon mixed reef, 55, 36, and 10g Planted, 29g African rift lake chiclids..


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## Alleysaurus (Dec 27, 2012)

I just joined this forum because of this thread  
I would like to thank everyone who has posted! 
I have been looking into turning my acrylic 60G aquarium into a discus tank for months now and finally started the process. I must say, out of every where I have looked online with information on discus, this thread has been the single most useful tool I have found! ESPECIALLY since I am dead set on having plants in my aquarium. This thread, so far, has really helped shape my understanding of discus, what to expect my maintenance requirements to be, and just how important the different aspects of their care is. I haven't finished reading through the whole thing yet, but I'm sure I will have a few questions once I have!

Thanks again everyone! I was getting worried I would never find a good 'one stop' for information on the new fishies I plan to be obtaining in the near future.


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## Alleysaurus (Dec 27, 2012)

bif24701 said:


> Off topic, here is a video of my mixed reef tank. Quality isn't great however.
> 
> http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa456/Aaron_Wasson/5f595baa.mp4


Beautiful Tank! Looks like endless hours of excitement to watch  If I had a tank like that I think I would never ever watch tv again!


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## Alleysaurus (Dec 27, 2012)

Okay, finally finished the thread lol
So I would like to start by saying that I fully intend on making this tank an environment that these fish will thrive best and want to spawn in. I plan on buying a tank or two to use for growing fry out once I get the hang of discus keeping. I would also, as long as their is nothing to oppose this being a good idea in any way, like to make this tank so I can also keep and spawn bristle nose plecos. (I wanted imperial zebra plecos, but they are simply too expensive for me at this time and I have read that sometimes they try to feed on the discus' slime coating. I figure they would be better to wait probably at least a year for with this in mind.)

I DO have a few questions. 
Firstly, I am nervous about choosing a potting soil to put in pots for plants, so if anyone could direct me to a specific one known to be safe for aquarium use it would be greatly appreciated. What I've read has persuaded me to not even start the addition of plants for a good few months at least, but for future reference. 

Secondly, what kind of lighting would everyone recommend for discus? I believe what I currently have is two Zoomed Flora Sun bulbs in two hoods over my tank. I would like it to be sufficient for the future plants to be added, but I mostly just want whatever will make their colors "pop" the most.

Thirdly, I have the API freshwater master test kit that tests pH, nitrates, ammonia, and nitrite, but not hardness of the water. What additional test kits, if any, do I need and what would be the ideal values for those tests? 

Lastly, I know the answer to this question will most definitely be a resounding "no" from everyone in the fish community, but I have this green terror who I and my fiance love who we have thus far grown to 4" or 5" from about 1 1/2". He doesn't get along with any other kind of aggressive fish (I have tried quite a few and he either took their territory or attempted to die trying to keep his territory), but I have had him with two angels for months and he never shows any signs of aggression towards them and even shares food with them. It's so cute. No go on keeping him with the discus? There's no way I'll be able to get another tank large enough for him to be happy in, I just hate re-homing a fish I have come to love so much.

Well thank you everyone, 
and if I'm imposing on your thread, bif, just let me know and I'll take it somewhere else. I just thought I mine as well post here since it seems all the pros are posting on this one


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Alleysaurus said:


> Okay, finally finished the thread lol
> So I would like to start by saying that I fully intend on making this tank an environment that these fish will thrive best and want to spawn in. I plan on buying a tank or two to use for growing fry out once I get the hang of discus keeping. I would also, as long as their is nothing to oppose this being a good idea in any way, like to make this tank so I can also keep and spawn bristle nose plecos. (I wanted imperial zebra plecos, but they are simply too expensive for me at this time and I have read that sometimes they try to feed on the discus' slime coating. I figure they would be better to wait probably at least a year for with this in mind.)
> 
> I DO have a few questions.
> ...


Welcome to our community! Thank you for your complements on my reef it was my love and I looked at it every day for hours if I could. Unfortunately I had to convert it to a African rift lake chiclid tank because I am going to Korea for a year without my family then we all move to Germany in Feb 2014. I'm in the Air Force this assignment comes up in a career once or twice. My wife would t be able to spend as much time as I did maintaining the tank. So we put her. 20 fish from a 40 breeder in the 120, looks nice but a real down grade from my reef. I'm still hurt over the whole thing.

Also thanks for what you said about the thread. It's was because so many took time to answer my questions and discuss the topic with me. It's because of them it turned out so well. I'm glad that's it's helped you so much! 

Question one: I use miracle grow organic opting soil. 

Second: what is the tank depth? Mine is 24" so I use 2x T5HO 48" and its plenty for medium light plants and no CO2. Sounds like you have T12 (old tech and not great for growing plants IMHO). Those bulbs are garbage too. Get high quality bulbs and a better fixture is my recommendatio.

3: Your green terror sounds like a green puffer. And they should be kept in salt water on e they are grown. No is the answer. Find him another home or build one.

Please ask your questions here i have no problem with that or with anyone posting repliesi u/answers. 





120 gallon mixed reef, 55, 36, and 10g Planted, 29g African rift lake chiclids..


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## Alleysaurus (Dec 27, 2012)

Thank you bif!

I believe my tank is about 24" in depth. I will definitely be looking into upgrades. If you have any suggestions for a particular brand for bulbs/fixture that would be much appreciated. 

Also, I meant a green terror cichlid. They are a south american cichlid, which is why I ventured to keep him with angels. Everywhere I read online says they are too aggressive to be with angel fish, which is why I would think they aren't okay to be with discus. However, mine seems to get stressed any time he's kept with aggressive fish. Ever since I got rid of all my other cichlids and just kept him with my angels, he seems happier than ever and never shows any signs of aggression towards anyone.


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## Will72 (Jan 26, 2012)

I am running planted discus tank (55 gal) for over a year now. I have no problems with it at all, all I do is weekly water changes (approx. 60%).

Here is the pic: http://www.imageba.se/q


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Will, that's great. I am happy when I hear success stories. However it's said and repeated over n over again that the difference between a great tank and a thriving one is the details. Maybe you can put up a picture to compare and judge lol respectfully. 





120 gallon mixed reef, 55, 36, and 10g Planted, 29g African rift lake chiclids..


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Alley, I have a Aqualife 2x 48" T5HO with ATO bulbs one is a 8k (I think) the other is their freshwater plant bulb. It looks great and has the power to reach well down into the bottom for great growth. All my plants do well and grow so fast we are trimming them every weeks or two. But any fixture like that will work. ATO and Giesemann make the best T5HO bulbs. If your fixture doesn't include bulbs or these brands it's worth getting these. Mix the color for more spectrum. like this:
http://www.aquacave.com/Giesemann-PowerChrome-Aqua-Flora-T5-Lamps-P2234C323.aspx

And this:
http://www.aquacave.com/Giesemann-PowerChrome-Midday-T5-Lamps-P783C323.aspx







120 gallon mixed reef, 55, 36, and 10g Planted, 29g African rift lake chiclids..


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## bif24701 (Jan 3, 2012)

Will72 said:


> I am running planted discus tank (55 gal) for over a year now. I have no problems with it at all, all I do is weekly water changes (approx. 60%).
> 
> Here is the pic: http://www.imageba.se/q


Didn't see your picture before somehow and WOW! Your tank I a thriving.


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