# plants falling apart???



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

i had a 55 gal tank with a few plants we got at petco.... under normal lights that came with the tank.... a total of about 30 watts.. i know thats not enough, and my plants were dying and turning yellow...so.. we got a 20 gal tank and a 65 watt compact florescent unit....set it up and put the plants in.

now i leave the lights on about 10- 12 hours a day and dose a half a cap of "flourish comprehensive supplement of the planted tank", once a week.

now most of the plants are ok i think it might be a little too early to tell for sure.
but i have one plant that looks like tall grass .... the thick bladed kind... and it seems some of the "blades" are dissolving and falling apart.

anyone have any ideas why? i have an idea but want to hear what others have to say ...

oh yeah ... we have 2 angelfish and about 5 danio's , one redtailed shark and an chinese alge eater.... 
oh and the plant thats kinda falling apart is the only one who was doing ok in the 55..... 

Thanks in advance.


----------



## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

It could well be that the plant is non-aquatic. Can you provide pictures?


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

yes... give me till later todayand i'll post pics


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

see if this works


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok how do i upload pics?


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/marcom1234/IMG_1760_1.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i271/marcom1234/IMG_1759_1.jpg


----------



## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

The second picture looks as if something has been munching on the plant.

Who is living in the aquarium along with the plants? :icon_wink 

Mike


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

i don't think it's the fishies  but i have a handfull of danios, a redtailed shark two angel fish ,one big one semi small, a chinese alge eater. it's more like it's melting away. a few may look like they have been chewed on but i have not seen any of the fish going after the plants..... they started with very poor light and terrible substrate and almost died before i took measures to save them.... i gave them a smaller tank more light..65 pc bulb... and flourite substrate and some flourish comprehensive supplement.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

no one has any ideas why my plant isn't doing well now that it has light and good gravel and fertilizer????


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Plants need N, C, K, P and traces to grow well. In the aquarium we need to supply all of those, along with light before we can expect good plant growth. You didn't mention CO2 in your description, or Excel, so I assume you aren't providing any Carbon. And, I don't know what is in the Flourish stuff you are adding, so I don't know if you are providing N K P and traces. At the 3+ watts per gallon of light you have now, you need to fertilize regularly and completely if you are to have good plant growth. Somewhere in all of that is probably the answer to your problem.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok......
i have 65 watt compact flourescent light on a 20 gallon tank.... i have a mix of flourite and plain gravel with more flourite than plain.

i have a DIY co2 thats fairly unregulated but supplies a decent amount fairly consistantly.

i use flourish comrehensive supplement for the planted aquarium.
i dose it once a week as directed


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

wow those were big ... lol ok well i hope that helps a bit..... i also leave the lights on about 11-12 hours.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The flourish looks more like a comprehensive trace element mix than it does a macro mix. It looks like it provides too little nitrogen - less Nitrogen than iron for example. I think you need to add NO3, either as KNO3 from Gregg Watson or use Greenlight (?) stump remover. For CO2 you should check the KH and PH of the tank water during the day and use one of the charts to see if you are getting at least 20 ppm. Once you know the light, CO2 and ferts are all within reason, then you can do a better job of figuring out what could be causing problems.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

well ok.... here is the thing....... before this tank , the 20 gal, 
this plant... which i still don't know what it is..... was doing great in a 55 gal tank with 30 watts of light for the whole tank .... epoxy coated blue gravel.....and no fertilizer.

i will look into the kno3 and work on the figuring out the co2.... but why that now i have it in a "good" enviroment.... maybe not ideal yet.... but way better than it was in.. is it now dissolving and falling apart? i really don't get it


hopefully we can figure this out lol


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, why not make life easier on yourself by making it easier on us...:thumbsup: 

I can't make heads or tails on those sideways pictures and I'm not going to flip my monitor..... :icon_eek: 

Just login in to photobucket, select Edit above the pic, then scroll down and select Rotate 270 and then click Rotate. Do that for each of these pix, except the last one--and everything will correct itself in the thread.



>


That tells me that You are fairly new to the internet and/or messageboards, so please don't take this personally--I'm just trying to help out. :thumbsup:


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

not new to the internet just new to posting pics where there isn't a way to directly upload them to the post lol  
but no problem i'll go fix them.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Good Deal. Thanks.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

no more opinions on whats happening to my plant?? no ideas or guesses?


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> i will look into the kno3 and work on the figuring out the co2.... but why that now i have it in a "good" enviroment.... maybe not ideal yet.... but way better than it was in.. is it now dissolving and falling apart? i really don't get it


You now have the plant under about 3.5 watts per gallon of light--at that level You are definitely going to need to provide it (them) with C02 and a complete fertilizer regime.

The light is good and the substrate is good, but now You are in the boat of having to feed the Plant(s). They are trying to grow, but don't have any food.

Flourish is a *Micro* solution--Your plants are going to need macros also---N, P, K. Depending upon Your water...You many also need to add some Mg (Magnesium--Epsom Salt).

C02 can be done cheaply through DIY and bulk ferts can be purchased from www.gregwatson.con. At first this all seems like information-overload....but its not. Just a simple learning curve.

The reason the plant did well in the 55 gal was because of the lower light level.... :icon_eek:


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

so not enough "food" will make it dissolve? my other plants are doing so so..... but are getting fuzzy brown around the edges... i tried wipeing it off but it won't come off... are they "burnt" from too much light?

ok i have light and i have substrate and DIY co2...... and i have micro's ... now all i need is macro's and then get it all balanced correctly?


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

> now all i need is macro's and then get it all balanced correctl


Yep, sounds correct to me. Hopefully, someone will come along and correct or confirm.

How long has the plant been in the new tank? How long was it in the 55gal before You moved it?

It could just be settling in.....

How different/similar are the water parameters of the 2 tanks...?

Also, in the 55gal. the fish and fish food were helping to supply Nitrates (N) and Phosphorus (P) to the plants--that's 2 of the macro's.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

well for the most part the water param's are the same or very close and i was in the 55 for maybe 2 months and its been in the new tank for about a week, week and a half. the fish are in the new tank also which i feed still 

any ideas on the fuzzy brown stuff on the leaf edges that wont wipe off?


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

I am going to guess BBA. Take a look at the pic in posts #3 and #89 of this thread:

Excel as a treatment for BBA? Experiences?

Also checkout this algae page:

www.plantgeek.net/article

And:

www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/brush-algae

HTH


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

there are some pics from one of the leaves i plucked..


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, I haven't been at all this that long, and (Thankfully :thumbsup: ) I haven't had a lot of algae issues.

That said, I am still guessing BBA (Black Brush Algae). Read through the links that I posted earlier and You will know as much or more than I do about it.

Increase C02. You can try a 2-5 day Blackout. The Excel over-dose treatment. And I'm not sure what else.

Here is something I came across in the past, but life isn't quite that simple:

Low P = GSA
Low CO2 = BBA
Low N = BGA

Hopefully someone will come along to help You further.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok....
whats gsa and bga


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

I believe:

GSA= Green Spot Algae

BGA= Blue-Green Algae

But don't quote me on it.....


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

Naja002 said:


> I believe:
> 
> GSA= Green Spot Algae
> 
> ...



oops.... you have been quoted :icon_roll lol 

thanks for your help


----------



## riverrat (Jul 14, 2005)

Naja is right on the money as far as I see. 

You need to get your macros and micros quickly if you have not ordered or bought some already. If your not dosing with 3.5 watts per gallon it is like running a car down the road at 100mph in first gear. Your plants are starving. 

BBA which is what you have is usually due to low co2. 

You need post in the water parameters section. Start by testing you PH...KH....GH...Nitrates and if possible phosphates. Have you ever heard of Estimative Index. EI for short. If you get your ferts in. We all can help you get on a dosing regime that will help your tank balance. You might consider getting some fast growing stems also. 

Check this page for some good reading http://rexgrigg.com/index.htm

and here to read about EI http://www.barrreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1



riverrat


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

wow.... thanks riverrat..... i don't have any ferts on order as we have had a financial situation here in the last week.... totally a whole other story .... but.....

i have tested my kh and gh before and my test kit must be bad.... i have the little vials that you fill with water to the line and add drops as perscribed untill it turns a color..... well i fill the vial before it turns color... which translates to like 1000ppm kh which i don't think is possible.... so give me a few days to get a new test kit or something. but i can test for ammonia nitrates i think or is it nitrites? gh and kh plus ph which says im at like 8.2 ..... but the test kit is kinda old so i may be getting bad readings..... i made a new batch of co2 so i'll see how that goes for now...

thanks everyone this is very helpful


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

well that estimative index thing at least so far looks complicated.... i didn't understand half of what he said.... and would have no idea how to even do it and where to get the fertilizers... and then when i knew where .... i wouldn't know what to get lol 
or how much to add ..........


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

i felt the same way a few months back...basically the EI dosing is overdosing your ferts each week to make sure you reach the maximum level, a 50% water change is done, which will bring the levels back down, and the process is started over again...

this thread was very helpful to me in getting started on my dosing reg., takes about 2 min., every other day to do...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html

order dry ferts (KN03, KH2P04, K2S04) at gregwatson.com

good luck!


----------



## turbosaurus (Nov 19, 2005)

If your plant was growing in the old tank, than give it time. Some species will get pissed if you move them and die back a little. Okay- I am sure they don't die back for spite becasue they are mad, even though it can seem that way. Some plants are just more suceptable to damage when transplanting and that damage will show up by melting, or growth stopping until they get settled in their new home. 

Once it gets settled it deffinately won't do worse in better lights with appropriate fertilizers.


----------



## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

hoppy posted before i could flourish is mostly trace micros same thing happend to me i started adding seachem N P K and all was better.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok i would like to try greg watson ferts but don't know what ones to get i can't seem to find the KN03, KH2P04, K2S04 all seperatly but can find one or two of them seperatly..... there does seem to be a comprehensive dry fert with these things in them but don't know in what amounts.... i know they are 1ppm or something of each but don't know if thats what i need and if i do how much of that kind lol ..... any help would be great ))


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=PMDDPre%2DMix

ok so is this the stuff i need? and if so how much do i use and how do i use it? lol


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

These are about the minimum you need - and probably the maximum too.

http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CSMPlantex1
http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=PotassiumPhosphate
http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=Nitrate
http://www.gregwatson.com/proddetail.asp?prod=MagnesiumSulfate

Use the search function to find a Tom Barr post where he gives his recommended dosing for EI for a 20 gallon tank, unless someone else remembers it. The technique is to:
1. Change 50% of the tank water once a week, right after cleaning, pruning, and other tank maintenance. Add the dosage of KNO3 and KH2PO4 when the water is changed, plus some MgSO4 if your water is short of magnesium. You can add these as dry chemicals, with no problems.
2. Next day, mix the CSM, 1 tablespoon per 250 ml of water in a dark colored bottle, and add about 5 ml of that.
3. Next day add the KNO3 and KH2PO4 again.
4. Next day add the CSM+water again.
5. and on Keep repeating the above until you change water again.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

so your saying the link i gave isn't what i need? it seems it has all the stuff in the links you gave me. 
not trying to be picky i just don't understand it enough yet


----------



## riverrat (Jul 14, 2005)

You want the four seperate ones hoppy has listed. One of each will last you a long time. You can control each nutrient specifically then.


----------



## sparrow (Feb 27, 2006)

marcom1234 said:


> so your saying the link i gave isn't what i need? it seems it has all the stuff in the links you gave me.
> not trying to be picky i just don't understand it enough yet



Rex's Ferts Page has a really good explanation of what each is used for and how much of each might constitute a typical order.


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Mono Potassium Phosphate = KH2PO4
Calcium Chloride = CaCL2
Potassium Sulfate = K2SO4
Potassium Nitrate = KNO3


Low P = GSA
Low CO2 = BBA
Low N = BGA


CO2 range 25-35ppm
NO3 range 5-30ppm
K+ range 10-30ppm
PO4 range 1.0-3.0 ppm
Fe 0.2-0.5ppm or higher (?) 
GH range 3 degrees ~ 50ppm or higher


A Typical Tank 
A typical routine for a high light tank with low fish load:
Volume 80 liters (20 gal high standard tank)
5.5 watts/ gal. - two 55watt 5000K/8800K lamps
CO2-25-30ppm (I turn my CO2 off at night)
Canister filter
Fluorite (any porous iron rich material will do) about 7-10cm depth 

A Typical Dosing Routine
1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 3-4x a week (every other day)
1/16th-1/32nd teaspoon of KH2PO4 3-4x a week (every other day)
Traces added on off days as the macro nutrients, so 3x a week, 5mls each time. 
SeaChem Equilibrium 1/8 teaspoon after water change.


Also Checkout....



.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok not meaning to be a pest but what is wrong with using the mix one?

is it that you can't fine tune your setup?
and since im here can anyone recommend a test kit? nothing outragous please lol


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The PMDD mix doesn't include any PO4. That is the main problem with it. Other than that, it is extremely helpful to be able to change the amount of each of the macro ferts independently - green spot algae, for example will go away if you add more PO4, but with a mix you can't do that. And, if your water contains no magnesium, you need to add that. For a low light tank you can easily get by with a mix and probably have no problems, but once you have over 2 watts or so per gallon it works a lot better to be able to adjust things if necessary. Plus, to be honest, it is fun to do individual fertilizer dosing.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

ok one pound of magnesium sulfate...

one pound of csm+b

one pound of mono potassium phosphate

and one pound of potassium nitrate

and im all good?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

That's the combination I ordered, but I used the CSM+B with extra iron. And, don't forget to find a set of tiny measuring spoons, down to 1/16 tsp. Gregg Watson used to sell them too, but ran out of them. If you have an empty amber cough medicine bottle, with the little plastic measuring cup stuck on the lid, I find that works very well for mixing and using the CSM stuff.


----------



## marcom1234 (Feb 12, 2006)

cool... you guys are all great.... 

any more suggestions are welcome but i think i have what i need for the moment lol


----------

