# Continuous algae battle



## mpg (May 28, 2014)

I have been fighting this algae in my 125 tall tank for a long time and i just can't beat it. Any help with what kind and how to get rid of it will be greatly appreciated. I have a finnex ray 2 that runs for 6 hours a day, i dose with flourish every water change (1 a week to 1 1/2 a week) i also add iron. I use excel every other day as recommended on the bottle. My nitrate is at about a 30 to 40 before each water change. I just don't know what to do. At this point i will do anything regardless of cost to get my tank under control. I have the usual algae eaters, 3 SAE, 1 bristlenose, 1 female black molly, they help but its beyond there control and i can't do snails or shrimp because I have yoyos that would destroy them. If there is anything else you need to know, please let me know.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

I forgot to mention it is pretty well planted with not explosive growth but I do notice things growing. And no co2.


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

So, your 125 tall.. that's about 24" high, 60" long? or some other dimension?

A 48-inch Ray 2 is 50 PAR at that kind of distance. Way too much light for a tank without CO2 injection.

Raise your light up a good bit, say 6" or so, or put something like a piece of window screen in to dim it down some. Since I suspect your tank is 60" long with a 48" light on it, raising it up would also help with light spread....

edit: Also, much of that algae looks like BBA, which is usually a sign there's too much light for the amount of CO2 present in the water.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

+1 for Matt. That means reducing the light till it balances/w the
level of nutrients/CO2.
A picture of the whole tank would help.


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## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

+1 for the above light reduction - also increase excel to daily, and spot treat the areas of algae instead of just adding it to the water column. Turn off all filters/pumps for a few minutes, with a syringe and submerged hand, blast the areas with neat excel (up to the tank dose of course).


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yes, excel is best used daily. You dont need the large recommended dose after a water change, just do the same amount every day. I agree with above about reducing the light some. Also try to maintain a super clean tank. 2X week water changes would help get things under control. Algae doesnt like water changes.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Here is a picture of the full tank. I have two finnex ray 2 30 inch running right above the tank, would it be better to get a current satellite plus, would that be better suited for this tank?






Also i will start dosing excel every day. Should I do a three day black out with excel to start off on the right track? Thanks everyone

Here is another pic, i just noticed the other was cut off a bit lol. Also i forgot to mention that the length is 60 and height is 24


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## sushant (Mar 3, 2007)

You need more fast grower plants to keep algae in control. Adding floaters will also limit amount of light.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

What plants would you consider to be fast growing and whats a good floater?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

The sat+ would probably be too little light. It is only 21 PAR on maximum brightness at 24" deep ... ideally you want to be somewhere around 30-ish.

As for fast plants, I got excellent advice on low-tech fast growing plants here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=6831761&postcount=8

My only caution on the advice there is be aware that hygrophilia polysperma is on the federal noxious weeds list and is illegal to transport between states, so it can be hard to get. (and if you do, please take special care when discarding cuttings, this stuff chokes out native plant life)

My low-light fast growers that do very well for me are:
hygrophila corymbosa angustifolia aka 'willow hygro'
hemianthus glomeratus aka Hemianthus micranthemoides aka pearl weed.

I had trouble with too little light for these plants, but you might not:
myriophyllum mattogrossense 
Rotalla rotundafolia

I have an order in for, but haven't tried it out yet:
Ludwigia sp Red
Rotala sp Green (probably won't work out, but I ordered a few anyway)
Rotala colorata (probably won't work out, but I ordered a few anyway)

For floaters, I like red root floater... frogbit is also popular. That said, I use HOB filters which make keeping floaters impractical (the waterfall of the HOB outlet beats the floaters down and eventually kills them.)

I dose CO2 booster (excel clone) at 1.4x label rate every day, and use the EI low-light fertilizer regiment.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Is there a good in between light thats less then the finnex ray 2 and stronger then the current satellite plus? Or would just putting screen over the finnex just be only solution?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

You could also raise the Ray2, rather than screening it... Regardless, i would at least give the screen a shot for a couple weeks before spending more money on fixtures... It is a cheap way to "prove out" the concept of cutting your light back. (unless you've got some kind of trade-in opportunity)

Regardless:

At 24" you could do the Finnex Planted+. I find it a tad strong at 20", so I hacked a dimmer into it and run it at 90%... However, at 24" you should be OK.


Other options would be something somewhat stronger than you need, but that has a built-in dimmer, this way you can easily adjust it:

Finnex 24/7 (due out in may) You may not be able to use its timer-mode, but you can always use it as a dimmable fixture and put it on a regular timer.

Current USA satellite + Pro (a bit more expensive, but seems to be feature rich with a programmable timer built in)


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The Finnex Planted Plus light gives less light than the Ray 2. It also included enough red light to make the tank look a lot better. I use one on a 65 gallon tank, also 24 inches high, hanging about 25 inches from the substrate level. I get about 35 PAR light intensity, and my plants grow well, but slowly. No serious algae problems after about 4 months of use. I use Excel, now Metricide, at two ml per 10 gallons - about 2 capfuls - every day.


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## catchthecarp (Nov 22, 2014)

Hoppy said:


> The Finnex Planted Plus light gives less light than the Ray 2. It also included enough red light to make the tank look a lot better. I use one on a 65 gallon tank, also 24 inches high, hanging about 25 inches from the substrate level. I get about 35 PAR light intensity, and my plants grow well, but slowly. No serious algae problems after about 4 months of use. I use Excel, now Metricide, at two ml per 10 gallons - about 2 capfuls - every day.


I started my first planted tank in December(100 gal) and had the same issue, lots of algae. No CO2, water parameters were all fine, dosing PPS pro and using root tabs, photo period was 6- 7 hrs, lots of plants. After a month many plants had leaves covered in algae(anubias, swords) along with some algae on the sides of the tank. Discouraging. First step was to get the lighting under control, mounted the light higher and turned down the brightness. My light(BML 6500K) has a dimmer but without any way to measure its ouput it was trial and error finding the sweet spot but I believe I have it now. Second, I started dosing Excel, the recommended amount (1ML per 10g). These two changes slowed the algae but didn't eliminate it. Then I came across a post where Hoppy said he doubled the Excel dose. Hmmm, worth a shot, so about 3 weeks ago I doubled it. In my case that did the trick, algae is almost completely gone now along with a nice up tick in growth. Very pleased with the turn around. Thought I would pass this along and to Hoppy... here's a hat tip for you. 


.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Hoppy said:


> The Finnex Planted Plus light gives less light than the Ray 2. It also included enough red light to make the tank look a lot better. I use one on a 65 gallon tank, also 24 inches high, hanging about 25 inches from the substrate level. I get about 35 PAR light intensity, and my plants grow well, but slowly. No serious algae problems after about 4 months of use. I use Excel, now Metricide, at two ml per 10 gallons - about 2 capfuls - every day.


So you think i should dose excel 18 cap fulls a day? (Figuring 95 gallons of actual water?


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

So final decision, should I do new lights aka finnex planted or should I try the screen idea?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

mpg said:


> So you think i should dose excel 18 cap fulls a day? (Figuring 95 gallons of actual water?


 Not 18 cap fulls. 18 ml, or about 3.5 caps


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Ok thanks for the clarification, i thought that seem high, so in my case i was doing 2 capfulls a day so i should up that to 4 a day. But what about when I do my water changes and the directions say to put 1 cap full per 10 gallons, should I also double that or leave it at what i do already which is 9 cap fulls every water change?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Ignore seachems directions to do a larger dose after water changes... I don't know why they do that, as it makes no sense whatsoever. 

Excel breaks down completely after 24 hours. So every day you're effectively starting at zero... Why dose more after a water change than you do any other day?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah ignore the large recommended dose after a wc. Just do the same amount every say.


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## catchthecarp (Nov 22, 2014)

mpg said:


> Ok thanks for the clarification, i thought that seem high, so in my case i was doing 2 capfulls a day so i should up that to 4 a day. But what about when I do my water changes and the directions say to put 1 cap full per 10 gallons, should I also double that or leave it at what i do already which is 9 cap fulls every water change?


I never did the heavy initial dose of Excel. I've been using 4 caps per day for my 100 gal tank. My anubias nana were the worst of my plants, all leaves were covered in brown aglae(diatoms?). Swords had lots of algae, too and I also had BBA growing on my spiderwood and driftwood. I spot treated BBA with H2O2 using a syringe which cleared it up but it came back. Spot treated again with H202 when I started dosing with Excel it appears to be gone now. 

Pic of swords, pretty clean except for a couple of older leaves on the bottom. Wish I had a before pic but all leaves looked similar to the broad leaf at the bottom. Swords started to thrive after I began dosing with Excel.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Ok im gonna try it out, ill post an update when there is a change


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

why is everyone suggesting screens or raising finnex fixture?
isnt it DC voltage supplied? in wich case you need to put pwm controller inline to dimm it niceley?
niceeshop(TM) DC 5~24V 12A Mini LED Controller Dimmer with RF Wireless Remote Control For Single Color Strip Light: Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement

for this to work led light needs to meet 2 requriremens:
1) psu output is DC between 5 and 24V obviously
2) psu should be intended as a voltage, not current source (if led fixture has resistors in series, youre good to go)


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Yes, it is possible with many Finnex models, I did a dimmer on my planted+ and posted the details over in the DIY section. However it does involve cutting cables and soldering, as the Planted+ is hard-wired to its power supply. I'm not sure if mpg has a soldering iron, and the skills to make the mods. Not every aquarist is a DIY electronics person.

The Ray2 (fixture in question) complicates this further by having the entire PSU inside the fixture, and a 120v AC cable goes up to the fixture. I don't know of anyone who has attempted to modify the Ray2 with a dimmer, but it is theoretically possible if you pull the guts out and rewire it.

Of course, all of this involves proving out that too much light is the problem in the first place. I've been suggesting raising and/or screen as an easily reversible "try it out and see what happens" approach. Once you know that too much light is in fact the problem, more permanent measures can be taken..


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## anastasisariel (Oct 4, 2009)

I would not buy planted plus if you have the ray 2. Just listen to these gentlemen and raise, dim, or screen the lighting. If you ever wanted to inject co2 you would already have some powerful lighting. If you could afford it, don't rule out co2. Its not Hard just takes a little investment.

I do own 2 planted plus and love them, but I'd be happy with the Ray 2 also as they can project their par better in deeper tanks.


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## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

If you can raise the fitting, it will always be preferable to dimming - especially if you are battling algae. You get a more even light level through the tank the higher up your light is.... ie. no high light zone (read - algae) in shallow water....


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Ok so i bought the planted plus light and are going to give them a go. But I'm going to hold on to my ray 2 just in case. How long do you guys suggest i run them a day?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

I'd start at 8 hours, and scale back a bit if the algae keeps up.. alternatively, start at 7, and work up or down from there as needed.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Ok so it hasn't even been a week and I already have a noticeable increase in algae. Wth, this tank is driving me bonkers. I even kept the planted plus running 6 hrs like the ray 2 was. I am dosing 4 caps of excel a day in the middle of the day and I am noticing more of the algae pictured earlier in spots that is wasn't. What am I missing. Should I fert more? I usually only do it once a week (flourish and iron).


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

What's your potassium source? Flourish doesn't provide very much of it, and fish waste generally doesn't either. 

Also, what fast growing plants do you have in the tank? Those are going to be your best algae suppressors.. Looking at the pictures it is difficult to make out everything in there.. buncha crypts, dwarf sag, is that rotala in the middle? Val left of center in the back? What's the feathery thing off on the right, myrio? cabomba?

edit: oh, and it is best to dose excel close to lights-on... not sure when your lights come on/off in relation to your mid-day excel dose.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

I have changed some of the plants since that pic. I wanted to add some fast growing plants and i did that last week also. I added more rotala, hygrophlia, wisteria, bacopa..... that's another reason why I don't understand the bloom, i mean i added two root tabs for the new plants but that is not the first time i have done that. Is there anything else i should be doing?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

The only thing I can think of offhand is your plants might be potassium limited, which impairs their growth and limits their ability to fight off algae.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

What do you recommend for potassium?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

K2SO4 would be my suggestion, dry fertilizers are much cheaper in the long run, you just need some measuring/mixing equipment to get started with them.

If you want to use premixes, use Seachem Potassium or API Leaf Zone... just be aware that Leaf zone contains iron, so it would either partially or entirely replace your existing iron dosing.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Lmao, I was dosing that for a long time but then my lfs told me to stop because that is what was probably causing the algae. Is there any relation between the two?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Which one were you dosing?? Leaf zone or Seachem potassium?

The odds of straight potassium causing algae is zero. You can OD the bejezzus out of that stuff without algae issues.

Leaf zone, if you end up ODing iron and other ferts are bottoming out, you might have some opportunity for algae to move in.

As far as relationships go... well, LFS advice generally causes algae, unless you have a very good LFS that understand planted tanks, IME


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lack of ferts is far more likely to cause algae than too much.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Its a dry fert i got from another lfs, so i going to start dosing again. So in what increments should I dose flourish, flourish trace, iron and potassium a week?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

What's your water change regiment like?

I'd probably ignore the flourish trace and flourish iron for now.. both are subsets of what is in flourish comprehensive, and you shouldn't need to be tweaking your micro balance so closely that you need either of these.

If you're doing small w/c's, I'd do something like pps-pro, which for a 125 gallon tank works out to:
14ml comprehensive, every day.
1.4g of K2SO4, every day (or appropriate portion of a pre-mixed solution that gets you 1.4g). However, you could aggregate this to a single 9.8 weekly dose safely.


If you're doing 50% water changes weekly, you could do EI low light.
29ml of comprehensive/week.. I'd divide into 3 10ml doses.
10.5g of K2SO4, dosed once a week (spreading doses out not required)


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

I usually do a 60ish % every week, (like to keep the happy) I will follow what you said and you know how it turns out


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Just to reconfirm the type of algae, here are some more pics, its growing like wild fire......


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

With those rusty red tones, that sure looks like BBA to me...

Interesting that it seems to be preferential to some plants and not others...

ie: it looks like it is growing on your crypts (and earlier photos show it on your sag) but not so much on the water sprite..

Any relation between the algae and plants that aren't near a root tab??


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

No, the only thing know that doesn't have it on is the wisteria, every plant even the rotala and hygro have it growing on it


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

And I just planted them maybe 2 weeks ago


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

Is it possible for it to be high levels of phosphate? I keep hearing that is a big bba cause? I just ordered a phosphate test, to actually see where im at


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

No.

Edit: 

Ok, now that I have some time, let me elaborate....

I'm sure you can kill BBA by removing phosphates entirely... Doing so suppresses all plant life, algae and otherwise... The strategy of zeroing phosphates is commonly used by saltwater and non-planted freshwater tank owners. In their tank, phosphate serves no purpose as the only plant life is algae, so why have any? Removing phosphate makes the tank inhospitable to invading plants. Makes sense to me.

That said, IMO, the idea that phosphate causes algae in a planted tank is rather absurd, and probably comes from "bucket" experiments and/or experience from tanks with no plants involved. If phosphate causes algae in planted tanks, I should have a farm of it. I accidentally mis-dosed my phosphates for several months (forgetting I'd changed concentrations in my solution), and was running at 4ppm of PO4 in my tank. I recently noticed this and made corrections and am now running around 2ppm. During this time the only unusual thing that has happened in my tank other than my largest anubias decided to bloom (which is still in the process of opening now).

Tom Barr has done quite a lot of experimentation with phosphates.. in the below thread he points out he's dosed 5ppm 3x a week and ended up with 5ppm residual, with no algae...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108467

And unless you're adding phosphate fertilizers, you shouldn't be anywhere near 5ppm.. your tap water is probably zero, but might be as high as 3ppm, maybe.. you'd have to be overfeeding quite a lot to get 2ppm more phosphate from fish waste.

Now, if you're adding a lot, and end up up over 5ppm, you might want to cut back... There's no plant benefit going that high, unless you've got a very unusual high-tech setup with some seriously phosphate hungry plants in it.


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## mpg (May 28, 2014)

So where should I be in the phosphate levels, 1ppm?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

1-2 is good for plants in most ordinary scenarios.


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

mattinmd said:


> 1-2 is good for plants in most ordinary scenarios.


The MCI methodology seems to posit there is a N-PO ratio which might explain why some run high phosphates and don't notice any affects. Tom Barr asserts a PO-CO2 connection.

I think you stated it well, it is probably too simplistic to say phosphates CAUSE BBA or anything else. For one, the hair algae would have to already be in the tank and two there are certain to be other conditions. But to your point that does not mean that algae can't be killed by removing nutrients.

I think there is a place for zeroing phosphates or other nutrients in the short term in order to put the hurt on an algae colony. It seems to me that if there is a short term deficiency method that works, it is far less invasive than putting chemicals into the tank. It definitely requires less manual effort than physical removal which tends to be a big part of the solution in hair algaes.


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