# grape jelly DIY co2 experiment



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm almost embarrassed to post this. LOL. I added the UV sterilizer and have been doing 2 wc a week to fix the green water issue. I also added the hornwort and duckweed to help soak up the nitrates/excess nutrients. Once the water issue is fixed I plan to trim everything back and add some new plants.

It's a simple mass of plants right now. Java moss, java fern, corkscrew vals, amazon sword in the back, wisteria and algae.

fin


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Amazing CO2 DIY!


----------



## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

wow i've looked into diy Co2 and have never come up with anything that lasts 4 months! wow


----------



## die2win (Aug 10, 2008)

Jeeesus, you actually tasted that stuff??!!


----------



## ka NUK (Nov 29, 2008)

I dunno... 
If it's tasty and has "the desired effect" that's just another reason to go the grape jelly route :icon_roll

I've switched to a wine yeast, but am still using dissolved sugar. I've been topping off the sugar level once a week with pretty stable results.

Thanks for the idea!

ka NUK


----------



## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

pretty cool, i'll give it a shot, thanks for sharing the idea!


----------



## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

how much water did you dissolve the yeast in, and did you use the 8tsp of jelly per bottle? 

Also If you keep adding more jelly to the bottle every week, won't the bottle fill up eventually or does it compact somehow?

This is really intresting stuff, do you think it would work with other types of jellies as well?


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Have you tried adding any protein powder for the yeast to eat like Tara Nyberg suggests?


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

die2win said:


> Jeeesus, you actually tasted that stuff??!!


Nothin wrong with it. Just water, yeast and jelly. Tastes like cheap wine.



Dollface said:


> how much water did you dissolve the yeast in, and did you use the 8tsp of jelly per bottle?
> 
> 
> Also If you keep adding more jelly to the bottle every week, won't the bottle fill up eventually or does it compact somehow?
> ...


I dissolved the yeast in about 1/4 cup warm water per 2 liter. Yes, 8 tsp per 2 liter.

I haven't noticed too much of an increase in volume. I have the 2 liters about 3/4 full. Last week I did dump off about 1/2 a cup out of each bottle and added back about 1/2 cup fresh water. Biggest point here is that the yeast are still kickin it after 3-4 months of active duty even with a pretty potent alcohol content.



Left C said:


> Have you tried adding any protein powder for the yeast to eat like Tara Nyberg suggests?


Nope. My brewer friend did suggest adding salt if I get really wicked explosions of production to slow things down, but it's really been very stable, so I haven't added anything to it. I thought about adding some sort of complex sugar, but the jelly seems to really do the trick. It must take them a while to work through it. I'm also using natural jelly. It's from 100% juice. Welches. I don't know if the natural fruit sugars are any more difficult for the yeast to process or what.

I finally got the water crystal clear. I'll take pics in a little bit.


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

"a little bit" turned into a few days. Figured I'd share a few more pics of this rig. I also tried to get some shots of the stand which is a DIY masterpiece in itself . I picked up the stand at the local goodwill store for $15. It's actually a dresser and I knew I should've taken pictures of it before I reworked it. It was white washed, and lived in a smokers house, so it was really kind of brownish white. It had some really nasty 70's style pulls on it too. So I stripped it down and turned the 3 drawers on the left into 1 door to house the filter equip. My co2 stuff should be here tomorrow! YEAH. Anyway, I repainted it black and used wax to seal. Added new modern hardware and BAM. You got yourself an $80 custom stand that I like better than anything I could've bought. It's slightly wider than the 75, but that actually turned out to be a good thing. It gives little "shelves" on the sides that I can put little buckets or scissors etc on.

I yanked the hornwort out and I really need to trim this. This gives an idea of 3-4 months of runtime on the DIY grape jelly co2.


----------



## daFrimpster (Mar 7, 2005)

so the yeast, 8 spoons of jelly. 
How much water did you add?


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

daFrimpster said:


> so the yeast, 8 spoons of jelly.
> How much water did you add?


filled each 2 liter about 3/4 full with water.


----------



## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

so the co2 output on my 5g was slowing down yesterday, thought i would try a little raspberry jam. looks like it's working like a charm so far, strong and steady stream of bubbles today! we'll see how long it extends the cycle or how long i can extend it with jam . thanks for the idea!


----------



## typezero (Dec 4, 2007)

This is an awesome idea!


----------



## Sarge (Sep 29, 2008)

yea, I've been using this method lately since I read it, so far so good, also just a slight jiggle of the bottle it produces bubbles again for a while in case anyones DIYCO2 jelly goes stagnant.


----------



## billm90 (Jun 19, 2008)

I was playing around with a batch, and I found some molasses, which I have no idea what you would ever use that for cooking wise. So I added a bit of it to the usuall sugar/yeast mix.

After a month I opened it to drain, and my god it was the worst smell ever.


----------



## RoyalFizbin (Mar 7, 2006)

I always add molases to mine and have never had a problem with it making a bad smell. I think you must have had bacteria or something in the mix.

I think i might have to give this jelly mix a try. I'm using wine yeast with sugar and molases right now which lasts about a month.

I don't have grape jelly but i have marmalade, I might just try it with that but now that i read the original post more carefully, i see that you're adding more jelly every week. I havent tried it yet but perhaps we can get the same results by adding more suger every week to our traditional sugar water solutions. This seems like more work. I think i would prefer to change a bottle every 4-5 weeks instead of opening up every week to add more sugar or jelly.


----------



## brion0 (Sep 28, 2008)

With a little research we may be able to make some good wine. We could kill two birds with one stone. My uncle always had a batch brewing in a 5 gal jar, he keep a bubble counter on top to keep o2 out, an when it slowed he added more sugar. Wine is around 12 percent. So yeast must die around there. I tasted my plain mix, it was to sweet, had it gone longer it may have gotten better. 

Free booze an heathy plants to boot!


----------



## revernance (Jun 19, 2008)

Great idea! I"m going to try it tomorrow


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

Just a note here. I got good production out of the mix for a month before I started adding more jelly once a week. I also second that shaking the bottle really gets the little buggers kicking again. I was actually turning the bottles upside down to break up the gunk at the bottom.

I don't know if the production is any greater than a sugar based equivalent, but I just liked the idea of spooning the jelly out and adding it right in. Seems easier to measure and is less fuss IMO.

I think you guys that were talking about adding protein mix or complex carbs into the mix were on to something too. Anything to prolong the production. More than anything, I wanted to get away from restarting the mix every month. By just adding more jelly instead of dumping the entire mixture out, I got months out of the bottles.

I'm on to pressurized co2 now, so my DIY co2 experiments are over (for this tank anyway). Good luck! Post results. :fish:


----------



## revernance (Jun 19, 2008)

wizzin said:


> Just a note here. I got good production out of the mix for a month before I started adding more jelly once a week. I also second that shaking the bottle really gets the little buggers kicking again. I was actually turning the bottles upside down to break up the gunk at the bottom.
> 
> I don't know if the production is any greater than a sugar based equivalent, but I just liked the idea of spooning the jelly out and adding it right in. Seems easier to measure and is less fuss IMO.
> 
> ...


"Thank you for sharing your results!

I did it yesterday @ 12pm. 
Now it's 12 pm the next day and this is what it looks like:









I think bubbles should be coming out soon. The froth measures about half an inch thick.


----------



## revernance (Jun 19, 2008)

Quick update. 
So for the mixture I used: half a packet of yeast, 4 teaspoons of grape jelly. 3 days and no bubbles. I think I might have used too much yeast? The OP said he/she used half a packet of yeast per 2 liter, unless I read it wrong. 
There is no leak, because I've been using this exact system for months now on plain sugar and yeast. 
Now I am trying less yeast for this upcoming experiment. 1/4 tsp+ 4 tsps spoon of grape jelly.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i think you needed 8 teaspoons... how warm is it?


----------



## coolnick (Oct 28, 2006)

You probably used too much yeast and too little jelly. I did a half teaspoon of yeast and a cup of sugar, added to 100*F water. It was up and running in about 12 hours with no froth and still has no froth.


----------



## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

wizzin said:


> .
> 
> So I setup a typical DIY 2 liter rig with (2) 2 liter bottles for generators and (1) 2 liter as the check valve of sorts. Instead of using straight up sugar though, I bought a ginormous jar of grape jelly from the supermarket for $1.97. I started the concoction off with around 8 teaspoons of grape jelly. This initial mix lasted about 30 days at 2-3 bbs of co2 production. When it started to taper off after 30 days, instead of dumping it off, I just started adding 4-8 teaspoons of jelly every Sunday with a water change.
> 
> ...


^read this again...


----------



## amano101 (Dec 21, 2008)

x2 for great idea! i will definately try this as soon as i get my new tank up and running.


----------



## revernance (Jun 19, 2008)

*oldpunk78*- I'm going to try 8 tsps of jelly like you suggested. The water was lukewarm when I put the yeast in there and shook it up. Same method I've used when sugar was involved. 

*coolnick*- you're right. I'm going to try a bit more jelly. You used sugar though? Sugar works fine for me, but this new jelly method takes a bit getting used to. I will post results. 

THE OP commented on using one packet of yeast for both two 2 liter bottles, so half a packet of yeast per 2 liter. That's a lot of yeast! I used half a packet of yeast for my 2 liter bottle too. Maybe I'm reading it wrong?


----------



## coolnick (Oct 28, 2006)

I would only use the grape jelly if you found it cheaper than sugar. I use sugar since that is what is in the house. I did however venture out to the local brewery supply store for some wine yeast. I haven't tried it yet since my original 2 liter is still cooking. I asked for the highest alchohol yeast they had and he gave me a few packets that he said were good to 17%. They were only $.95 ea.

Currently I am using regular old fast rise bread yeast, 1/2 tsp, and I am not getting any froth on top at all.


The most beneficial part of this thread for me was realizing that instead of dumping and starting over, no matter what sugar you are using for fuel, you can merely pour off most of the water and add new water and sugar source to get it cooking again.


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

These three yeasts are supposed to be really good, but $$. The Alcotec yeast contain nutrients. I read about them on a forum a few years ago, but I haven't tried them.
http://www.beer-wine.com/category_page.asp?categoryID=90&sectionID=2


----------



## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

The following info comes from Tarah Nyberg's Yeast CO2 powerpoint presentation from the AGA2K3 convention. http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/Nyberg_yeast.ppt

*How to live on the cheap --CO2*
I have used yeast CO2 on tanks up to 180 gal. Also 75s, 65s etc. 
2 gallons of yeast changed once every 3wks to month depending on the temperature works well. I don’t rotate the bottles either. 
The key to long lasting cultures is allowing them to grow and be happy. Also a little basic knowledge of yeast growth helps. 

*Yeast Growth/metabolism* 
Yeast can either produce energy by fermentation or oxidative phosphorylation (ox/phos)
Yeast greatly prefer fermentation over ox/phos and will not start ox/phos until all the sugars are converted to ethanol.
Ethanol is a good source of energy and in the presence of oxygen yeast use it up as well. 
Fermentation also produces 2 CO2 molecules per molecule of sugar-- as a by product. =)

*Why is just sugar and water not ideal?*
When you just add sugar and water to yeast, they are essentially starving to death.
However the enzymes for converting sugar to ethanol are still in the cell and will work for a limited amount of time. 
Since the cells do not have what they need to make new enzymes as cells starve/run out of enzymes the culture produces less and less CO2. 

*Also, we add too much sugar.*
Ethanol and sugar are increasingly toxic to yeast at greater than 10% concentrations. 
Therefore 2cups (~500ml) of sugar in 2L of water (~25% sugar) is unhealthy for the yeast. 
It is also a waste of sugar because 10% sugar will yield roughly 10% Ethanol at which point the yeast stop growing anyway. 
Special strains of yeast, like champaine and wine yeast, have stronger cell walls that protect them from the Ethanol -- so they grow longer.

*Happy yeast give you long, productive cultures.*
The solution is to give yeast less sugar and also supply them with the nutrients they need to grow. 
This will give you a long lived culture that produces a consistent amount of CO2, (they are not challenged by toxic conditions at the beginning and end)
Also your yeast mass at the end will be alive and well and able to quickly start growing again when you add more sugar.

*The Recipe!*
Improvise at will, but here is a good start:
Use 1 cup sugar per 2L H20 (tank water is great or dechlorinated tap -- chlorine, but not ammonia, kill yeast. ) (they like ammonia)
Add 1-2 tsp of a protein drink mix
(optional) Add 1 tsp of ammonium sulfate, otherwise use 1 T molasses. (or both)
1 tsp baking soda is also nice to keep the pH from crashing (they like it >pH3-4)
Leave yeast from previous mix in the bottom. 

*Benefits/conclusions*
Growing yeast this way saves you time (less re-starting) and money on sugar and yeast.
The only real extra cost is the protein mix, but you can use really old/cheap stuff. 
The key thing is that it has protein and vitamin/minerals, Anything that has “yeast extract” in it is perfect.
(Even non-fat powdered milk will do the trick, but it will smell funny)


----------



## gpwap1 (Jun 15, 2008)

Great idea/concept of using jelly. However, i have 1 question. How is it possible that the ethanol concentration stayed below 10-12% after 4 months of fermentation in a 2l bottle?


----------



## danakin (Jun 8, 2007)

I'll have to give jelly a try. I really like champagne yeast, it just always seems to last a few weeks longer for me so I'll sub that in for my yeast mixture.


----------



## Justshoe (Aug 17, 2008)

i wonder if the jelly acts anything like the jello recipe. where it helps draw out time it last by not making the sugars as readily available? wonder how well it would work with adding a little proteion powder w/ the grab jelly?


----------



## Dudun (Jan 3, 2009)

Just dumped my sugar mix, giving this a shot.


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

Here's a little step by step/clarification to help.



Setup 2 liter bottles as per a typical sugar/yeast DIY co2 rig based on the volume of your tank.
Use 1/2 pack of red star yeast (or fancier stuff if you feel so compelled) per 2 liter.
dissolve 1/2 pack of yeast w/ about 1/2 a cup of luke warm water.
In each 2 liter, fill about 3/4 full with room temp water (I never used distilled water).
Mix approx 8 teaspoons of grape jelly (or whatever flavor you want) in each 2 liter.
Add in the dissolved water/yeast mix to each 2 liter.
let it rip
around 30 days or whenever you see the co2 production taper off, simply add another 8 tsp of jelly to each 2 liter.
at around 90 days, dump off 1/4 to 1/2 of the "wine" out of each 2 liter and replace w/ fresh water (again, you could use distilled if you feel it's necessary, but I never did)
I'd let it go another 90 days before refreshing water again unless after adding additional jelly you aren't getting good co2 production.
A few thoughts.


I did this based on the Jello ideas. I figured that the jelly would work similar to the jello, but wouldn't require as much work (because I'm lazy).
The main point of this thread and project (as noted by others) is that you shouldn't have to start over w/ a new mix of yeast everytime your co2 rig starts to slow down. Just give the yeast more food. It's more about keeping a healthy culture of co2 producing yeast for as long as possible. You have to think of them as living organisms (which they are of course) that have needs, just like our fish. If you keep them happy and healthy, they'll continually produce co2 for you with little effort.
I don't really know how long you could keep a culture active from the initial setup but I've read on beer forums that some beer companies have kept cultures alive for over 100 years.
I'd love to see someone try to keep a culture going for as long as possible.
I thought (no evidence or scientificness here) that the jelly might have more good stuff in it for the yeast to eat. It's more than just sugar. There are proteins in the mix. While it's nutritional benefit to humans is slight, maybe it's the perfect already made mix for yeast?
A few negative thoughts


I do think this method of co2 production can cause algae problems. I actually attribute it to a hair algae outbreak I had. I think it's still inconsistant, but could be stabilized by staggering the 2 liters and using more 2 liters than necessary.
This definitely requires more work than a pressurized system (duh) and can get annoying unless you look at it as fun. No reason you couldn't be excited about trying to get a yeast batch to last as long as possible.
The jelly will eventually glue your 2 liter lids on if you're not careful when adding jelly. Maybe use a turkey baster to suck up jelly and inject it in your 2 liters?
Drinking the results could put u in a coma.
It can get stinky (Stinky if you think strong wine stinks)
fin


----------



## brinks (Dec 19, 2007)

Like your tank, has the white substrate on the right grown much algae?


----------



## vtkid (Jan 5, 2009)

Do you think one 2 liter would work for a 26gal.
and how do you tell how much CO2 you are putting 
into your tank(how do you measure it).


----------



## coolnick (Oct 28, 2006)

vtkid said:


> Do you think one 2 liter would work for a 26gal.
> and how do you tell how much CO2 you are putting
> into your tank(how do you measure it).


I have a single 2 liter on a 10g and would definitely do 2 on a 26g. As far as measuring the CO2 levels the easiest way is with a drop checker.


----------



## wizzin (Aug 15, 2007)

brinks said:


> Like your tank, has the white substrate on the right grown much algae?


The sand did grow some algae at first. I just used a net to scoop it up. I switched to pressurized co2 and still had hair algae issues. Last week I modified my powerhead to inject air via the venturi tube and the algae all went away! Don't know if it was the surface agitation or the addition of o2 to the system that knocked the algae out.



coolnick said:


> I have a single 2 liter on a 10g and would definitely do 2 on a 26g. As far as measuring the CO2 levels the easiest way is with a drop checker.


I agree. drop checker.


----------



## scream-aim-fire (Nov 4, 2008)

what kind of branches are those in your tank? where did you get them?


----------



## starrystarstarr (Sep 6, 2006)

did anyone else do the jelly mix? and if you did how did it work out?


----------



## vtkid (Jan 5, 2009)

I did it and it worked great for about 3-4 days and then just stopped.


----------



## airborne_r6 (May 2, 2008)

vtkid said:


> I did it and it worked great for about 3-4 days and then just stopped.


I got the exact same thing 3 days and then nothing. I added a cup of sugar and it has been going fairly regular for 5 days now.


----------



## starrystarstarr (Sep 6, 2006)

i tired it myself and nothing im just going back to my normal mix of sugar, and yeast.


----------



## FBG (Oct 17, 2008)

I have been having to add jelly every week to keep the production up. I am going to guess this is not the way to do it seeing as it is supposed to work for 4 months. (I did read he added jelly every week after a month) mine has been going for 2 weeks approx now (with jelly added each week). I have molasses, protein powder, and baking soda in the mixture as well. it seems to work fine and I get pearling on plants I can't get to in my high-tech.


----------



## stonedpuppy (Jan 26, 2009)

i used crushed up rasberries once and that worked pretty good. i drank some of mine too, it was pretty good. i have been looking into making actual wine and using the co2 biproduct in the tank. this way my fish get co2, and i get drunk!


----------



## stonedpuppy (Jan 26, 2009)

plants rather


----------



## tominator (Dec 3, 2008)

stonedpuppy said:


> i used crushed up rasberries once and that worked pretty good. i drank some of mine too, it was pretty good. i have been looking into making actual wine and using the co2 biproduct in the tank. this way my fish get co2, and i get drunk!


I don't think that's a good idea. My dad is in to homebrew beer and I've helped him several times. It is 100% necessary to keep the brew sealed, and I assume the same is true for wine, to keep contaminants bacteria and "wild yeast" out of the mix which can cause some awful flavors. He had to throw out a whole 5 gallon batch one time due to wild yeast. With the mix connected to the tank, and open to air somewhat more than ideal, I wouldn't chance my money.


----------

