# New Marineland LED fixture



## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

the original double brite can grow plants (quite well in fact) , i have one 

i think this thing is gonna be like having a 150W HQI over a 15g tank


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

This looks very promising:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

This shows that multiple fixtures are necessary for reasonable uniformity of lighting. One fixture only covers about a 6 inch wide area of the substrate, even as far away as 2 feet. An 18 inch front to back depth tank would need 2 or 3 of these to cover the whole substrate - that would be over $1000 for lighting a 90 gallon tank, and you would only have medium light, not high light. Non-DIY LED lighting still has a long way to go before it is competitive with T5HO.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

Once again the manufacturer ignores the FW hobby. Unless they come out with a no-blue version I think the value to this hobby is greatly reduced. It's interesting that they would go this route. I spent some time in their Moorpark CA office in the early 90's and don't remember much in the way of SW back then.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

fresh.salty said:


> Once again the manufacturer ignores the FW hobby. Unless they come out with a no-blue version I think the value to this hobby is greatly reduced. It's interesting that they would go this route. I spent some time in their Moorpark CA office in the early 90's and don't remember much in the way of SW back then.


For hi-tech expensive perpherials, etc. there is ONLY the SW hobby. The hi-tech planted hobby in USA is but a very small niche, so you can't blame them for not catering to it. The FWFO is another story.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> This shows that multiple fixtures are necessary for reasonable uniformity of lighting. One fixture only covers about a 6 inch wide area of the substrate, even as far away as 2 feet. An 18 inch front to back depth tank would need 2 or 3 of these to cover the whole substrate - that would be over $1000 for lighting a 90 gallon tank, and you would only have medium light, not high light. Non-DIY LED lighting still has a long way to go before it is competitive with T5HO.


Hoppy, from your calculations what's the minimum PAR level to fall within a medium light range.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

I think if you talked to any LFS owner that had both FW and SW in their store you would find most make their money on FW stuff. I think there's a fair amount of FW keepers willing to spend more on a top notch product than many manufacturers realize. This light for instance could easily be manufactured with FW in mind and the only real added expense would be inventory.

Heck I paid $100 to light a 3g tank that only cost $24.00. lol


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

fresh.salty said:


> I think if you talked to any LFS owner that had both FW and SW in their store you would find most make their money on FW stuff. I think there's a fair amount of FW keepers willing to spend more on a top notch product than many manufacturers realize. This light for instance could easily be manufactured with FW in mind and the only real added expense would be inventory.
> 
> Heck I paid $100 to light a 3g tank that only cost $24.00. lol


I'm pretty sure you're right. However, most FW keepers don't need 1000 watts of lights or skimmers or calcium/phosphate reactors or ph/salinity/etc probes with attached controllers, auto top offs, etc. A salt water hobbyist is likely to spend more money for a specific piece of equipment than a FW guy looking for a bowl for his betta.

I always thought my setups were pretty slick but my wife kicks my butt when it comes to equipment (75g mixed reef).

The people that post on this forum are generally the exception, not the rule.

-Charlie


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

i gotta disagree. I run a retail shop, and for every one saltwater fish or invert i sell, I sell at least 12-15 african cichlids and about the same in tropical fish (barbs, tetras, danio).

The other thing you guys don't see (No disresapect) is that the markup is soooooo much higher on freshwater fish than it is with marine fish, not to mention lower dead rates, and ease to care for. 

For every one person who wants to buy a marine tank that will cost about $1500 I sell 4-5 freshwater setups for african cichlids, or plants, or whatever, each one of those is minimum $500.. I wish the manufacturers would start catering to the part of the industry that makes all the money


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

fresh.salty said:


> I think if you talked to any LFS owner that had both FW and SW in their store you would find most make their money on FW stuff. I think there's a fair amount of FW keepers willing to spend more on a top notch product than many manufacturers realize. This light for instance could easily be manufactured with FW in mind and the only real added expense would be inventory.
> 
> Heck I paid $100 to light a 3g tank that only cost $24.00. lol


Track Hazard has it right. You need to separate FW Planted and FW *Fresh Only*. Most LFS shoppers are not FW Planted enthusiasts like yourself. They keep only fish and would not need such lights and other hi-end equipent unless they want to grow algae and create many other new life forms. 

Most LFS can only afford to stay in business from the install and maintenance they do, not from the guy who buys 5 Platys and some Flourish. Trust me just about none of it is planted or for that matter freshwater. It's almost all high end salt.

If you were in Asia the balance would be different.

Now back to the lights.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

F22 said:


> i gotta disagree. I run a retail shop, and for every one saltwater fish or invert i sell, I sell at least 12-15 african cichlids and about the same in tropical fish (barbs, tetras, danio).
> 
> The other thing you guys don't see (No disresapect) is that the markup is soooooo much higher on freshwater fish than it is with marine fish, not to mention lower dead rates, and ease to care for.
> 
> For every one person who wants to buy a marine tank that will cost about $1500 I sell 4-5 freshwater setups for african cichlids, or plants, or whatever, each one of those is minimum $500.. I wish the manufacturers would start catering to the part of the industry that makes all the money


I never said freshwater I said freshwater planted. Of course there are much more freshwater setups then salt, but most of these are not high-end.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

Well, i would say about 50% of the tropical sales we have go to people who have plants in the tank... Not high tech by any means, but i think high tech planted and reef customers are about even in my shop.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

Hey Jake, sorry I messed up your thread. lol


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

We're looking at it from a US-centric point of view. LED's will be proven out in Europe and Asia before they have a chance here. Cost will come down some, but I think they will always be more expensive up front than competing technology for most applications.

When I first started with plant tanks 10+ years back, most hobbyists had a standard 55 with a NO shop light ($5 grow bulbs from home depot!), DIY yeast CO2 (if any), and some type of home brewed substrate mix often including cat litter. Dark ages, literally!

The US portion of the hobby is still light years behind the curve, but things do slowly change. It's hilarious to think about some of the responses I received (email lists back then) after suggesting the use of what we now consider high light (too expensive, kill all the plants!), pressurized/controlled CO2 (too expensive, kill all the fish!), or Japanese/Euro style tanks (too expensive, and they're time bombs!).


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

xmas_one said:


> Based on your recent par testing on the 5" deep tank, would you agree that those off center numbers would likely bump up a bit for this led setup due to reflection from the front and rear panes of the tank?


The reflection off the glass would certainly help, but these lights really have a big drop off in intensity beyond 3 inches from the center, at 24 inches distance. Most fluorescent lights don't have nearly as abrupt a drop off. My LED testing also shows that big drop off, but not that big, indicating that these LEDs use lenses to concentrate most of the light near the centerline. I just don't see a way to successfully use a LED fixture that isn't nearly as wide as the depth of the tank. I have noticed that reef tank keepers like the lenses, preferring high light around the centerline to a more dispersed and more uniform light.

Houseofcards, as far as I know, there is no calculation involved in specifying what is low, medium and high light. That comes from experience only. The ranges I use came from Tom Barr more than a year ago. The minimum for medium light, based on that is around 40-50 micromols.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

F22 said:


> For every one person who wants to buy a marine tank that will cost about $1500 I sell 4-5 freshwater setups for african cichlids, or plants, or whatever, each one of those is minimum $500.. I wish the manufacturers would start catering to the part of the industry that makes all the money


I think that's the issue. The only reason why people buy so many FW setups is that its initially cheaper. About the only equipment that is the same is the tank and stand. Lights for a cichlid tank vs reef, filters for cichlid vs reef, additional eq for cichlid vs reef (not to mention salt for water changes).

I'd like to see more innovation in the FW industry and slowly the cool interesting products from asia and europe are trickling in but even then, it seems like a lot of brand engineering is going on. We are getting cool tanks and mini filters, neat LED lights under some major names but then we slowly start realizing that all the "new" stuff with all the "research" behind them is all coming from the same factory, just with new stickers on them (the Marineland C-series/JBL/Jebao/Odyssea canister filters come to mind).

Glassbox Design had an editorial on this brand engineering that I think hits it on the head:

http://glassbox-design.com/2010/aquarium-companies-less-marketing-more-designing/

Seriously, go to Alibaba.com and type in Aquarium lights. Its kinda surprising as many of the fixtures you find will look might familiar.

Kudos to Marineland for pushing the market. So far I have yet to see anyone really push into the lower level LED lighting market. But I wonder if this is more the case of what was available hitting the market vs what is actually wanted. Hopefully, as people adapt to the new technology, we'll see more versatile and flexible products coming in with features that are the result of real engineering and design rather than whatever the latest factories in China are producing.

-Charlie


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

You are wasting your time _hoping_ for industry driven innovation. You can argue about FW vs. SW, but it's all peanuts in the big picture. If you don't like rebranding, think about all the equipment that has merely been adapted from other (larger, more profitable) industries. Think commercial lighting, horticulture, plastics/glass, chemicals, welding, plumbing, etc. It's the only way to eek out a profit.

If anyone is interested in developing a line of FW specific LED lighting, all the heavy lifting has already been done. Buy some LED's, optics, drivers, and some basic electrical parts. It's not rocket surgery.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

what's rocket surgery 
i mean i would imagine operating on a rocket to be quite difficult... 

lol, sorry, had to do it


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

There are ways to do it, and ways not to do it.

Chevrolet slapping a Cadillac badge on a Cavalier and calling it a Cimmaron is one way not to.

Most people don't know and would never guess that the Ford Focus, Mazda 3, and Volvo S/V share the same chassis but each tweaked just enough for each company's purposes. Thats how to do it.

But yes, while I have hope, I also realized that ultimately the driving motive for each company is money and whatever ensures profits is what gets done.

One thing I'm looking forward to (I hope) is a standard array for LED with a controller to control spectrum in order to suit whatever kind of tank you decide to use the fixture for (SW or fresh). I know some of the more advanced LED fixtures can kind of do this already but the price of admission is pretty steep.

http://glassbox-design.com/2010/vertex-illumina-led-light-studio/
http://glassbox-design.com/2010/maxspect-led-colors/

Vertex Illumina demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHo7LTgkbZ4&feature=player_embedded

Sorry for all the glassbox links. Not affiliated with them but I do find that their website is pretty good with reporting cutting edge marine tank tech.

-Charlie


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

F22 said:


> what's rocket surgery
> i mean i would imagine operating on a rocket to be quite difficult...
> 
> lol, sorry, had to do it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I

Totally off topic but one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time.

-Charlie


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

houseofcards said:


> For hi-tech expensive perpherials, etc. there is ONLY the SW hobby. The hi-tech planted hobby in USA is but a very small niche, so you can't blame them for not catering to it. The FWFO is another story.


The whole point of my comment was that you can't lump Freshwater Planted with Freshwater Fish only tanks. The planted tank is still in it's infancy in the USA. And because of this OEMs are not going to develop product for a high-end planted audience if the numbers aren't there. There are very few LFS that commit equal floor space to planted and saltwater unless they specialize in one of those areas. Most high-end equipment is moved in retail stores for salt water not fresh water planted. How many planted maintenance calls are made compared to salt.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

bout 50% less on my end


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## DtEW (Jul 21, 2010)

houseofcards said:


> This looks very promising:


Yikes. Talk about non-uniformity. With one of these, I'd have about 3-6 times more PAR at the center than at the edges of my 20G high tank.

I am, however, very glad that Marineland is releasing detailed specs for us to determine if our needs can be met with their new lights.

I wonder if the light spread can be re-directed by adding strips of almost-perpendicular (to the fixture lower surface) reflectors between the rows of LEDs? Just a slight angle off of vertical to re-direct the light from the front and back rows of LEDs (leaving the center row alone) off of dead-center-below.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

BTW. I wasn't referring to that chart being promising, I was just referring to Marineland developing a high-end LED fixture beyond their other offering. That's why I asked hoppy a few posts down what is the minimum par needed for medium light. Also I don't care if it's not completley uniform, it's just a matter of what's needed .


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