# Dirt questions



## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

hey guys im gonna be starting my first planted tank soon and i had a few questions about them:
1. Do i just put miracle grow organic into the tank cap it then fill or put it in the tank make the dirt mushy then cap it or mix water and dirt in a separate container make it muddy then add it to the tank and cap it?
2. What consistency should the dirt be? dry, damp, play-dough like, muddy?
3. What should i cap with? i was planning on sand but thought gas bubble would form? but i don't like the look of gravel.
4. How do i take care of the excess nutrients at the beginning of the dirt? do i add duckweed? i cant find duckweed locally here can someone send me some?
5. Does dirting a tank cause a yellowish stain to the water?
6. Would the fish die if i add them to the newly dirted tank? 

I know its alot of questions :tongue: 
:help::help::help::help::help:


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## VJM (Feb 9, 2013)

1. Sift it, put it in, and cap. You can spray the top with water if you are worried you will mix the cap, but it isn't necessary. Then put bubble wrap in to cover the cap, and fill gently. Remove bubble wrap when done. 

2. Consistency right out of the bag is fine. 

3. I like sand caps. You will get gas buildup, but just poke all over with a skewer or chopstick every day or every other day until it stops. 

4. You don't get excess nutrients at the beginning. Just do water changes like you would for any new tank (daily the first week, every other day second week, every third day third week, once a week thereafter), and you are fine. Don't add duckweed, because you will be fighting to get rid of it forever. Dwarf water lettuce is great if you want a floater. 

5. You won't get a yellowish stain unless you have a lot if bark chips on top of the cap. Sifting helps with this. 

6. It is always advisable to establish a healthy colony of beneficial bacteria before adding fish. You need a cycled tank for them. This takes 3 to 6 weeks. If you plant very heavily, and add fish right away, you might not see a huge cycle. However, you are risking the fish and creating stress for yourself. Set up the tank, get some ammonia and a test kit, let it cycle, then add fish


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

VJM said:


> 1. Sift it, put it in, and cap. You can spray the top with water if you are worried you will mix the cap, but it isn't necessary. Then put bubble wrap in to cover the cap, and fill gently. Remove bubble wrap when done.
> 
> 2. Consistency right out of the bag is fine.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the answers, instead of poking around could i get like a peacock eel to move around the substrate or cory cats? and with question 6 the tanks already cycled and been going good for about a year i just wanted to make sure that the one in it fish i have would be ok so when i fill the water back up it will be instantly cycled or take like a day since the canister already has BB in it and i can use sand from other tanks so i have BB in substrate.


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

There's been some debate over whether sifting is necessary or not. I think it comes down to whatever you want to do...Read through this and you'll learn quite a bit.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=411594&highlight=


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## wheatiesl337 (Mar 30, 2011)

I personally don't see why you wouldn't just do a dry start if you are going dirt. I think it makes things much easier in the long-run.

Also, look into black-diamond blasting sand. Super-cheap, smaller than gravel, but larger than sand grain.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wheatiesl337 said:


> I personally don't see why you wouldn't just do a dry start if you are going dirt. I think it makes things much easier in the long-run.
> 
> Also, look into black-diamond blasting sand. Super-cheap, smaller than gravel, but larger than sand grain.


I've tried to get this sand but stores near me don't sell it and online shipping is like $30+ What do you think on pool filter sand


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

PFS is a commonly used cap. Should work fine.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

jpappy789 said:


> PFS is a commonly used cap. Should work fine.


thanks!


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Kavin2845 said:


> I've tried to get this sand but stores near me don't sell it and online shipping is like $30+ What do you think on pool filter sand



Are there no welding supply store near you? Black Diamond is a blasting media.
I've used in the past just too dark for me.

I've used playsand but it requires lots of rinsing $4 for 40#s. Now I use PFS one or two rinses and it's ready $8 for 50#s.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

DogFish said:


> Are there no welding supply store near you? Black Diamond is a blasting media.
> I've used in the past just too dark for me.
> 
> I've used playsand but it requires lots of rinsing $4 for 40#s. Now I use PFS one or two rinses and it's ready $8 for 50#s.


well there is one but its an 1 hour drive away and my parents said they would never drive that long for sand lol


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## tiggity (Feb 21, 2012)

I didn't sift the dirt, I simply added water to it till it is a thick mud, almost like a brownie batter. I gently pushed down on it to get any trapped air out then capped with PFS. Once in a while I'll get a gas bubble and some wood chips come out but it is easy to get with a net or a siphon. Having corys also helped with gas bubbles as they sift through the sand and let it loose.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

tiggity said:


> I didn't sift the dirt, I simply added water to it till it is a thick mud, almost like a brownie batter. I gently pushed down on it to get any trapped air out then capped with PFS. Once in a while I'll get a gas bubble and some wood chips come out but it is easy to get with a net or a siphon. Having corys also helped with gas bubbles as they sift through the sand and let it loose.


hey i heard about mineralizing, what is that? is it a must 
and one of my corys laid eggs (Albino x Emerald) a few months ago and now have like 30 medium sized corys! ill just put 4 or five in the tank! thanks!


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## wheatiesl337 (Mar 30, 2011)

Mineralizing is not a must, but it can help to avoid the gas bubbles, nutrient spikes , etc. from dirt breaking down under a flooded cap.

Doing a dry start begins this process, but won't get you all of the way to fully "mineralized." I would highly encourage doing a dry start. It makes starting up a dirted tank much more forgiving imo.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wheatiesl337 said:


> Mineralizing is not a must, but it can help to avoid the gas bubbles, nutrient spikes , etc. from dirt breaking down under a flooded cap.
> 
> Doing a dry start begins this process, but won't get you all of the way to fully "mineralized." I would highly encourage doing a dry start. It makes starting up a dirted tank much more forgiving imo.


what is the full mineralizing process? does it involve special chemicals?


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## WestHaven (Jun 30, 2012)

Kavin2845 said:


> what is the full mineralizing process? does it involve special chemicals?


It basically involves putting the dirt in a bucket/container, adding water, picking out the floating debris, then setting the wet dirt out in the sun so it can dry. Repeat several times. It doesn't involve any chemicals.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

WestHaven said:


> It basically involves putting the dirt in a bucket/container, adding water, picking out the floating debris, then setting the wet dirt out in the sun so it can dry. Repeat several times. It doesn't involve any chemicals.


oh i see can it be done indoors? i live in an apartment and i have no space outside to dry the dirt?


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## wheatiesl337 (Mar 30, 2011)

It is not something you would want to do indoors. It would take an age without being turned over in direct sun/heat, plus smell and general mess. A dry start would be less work than mineralizing. Or you can go right to flooding.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wheatiesl337 said:


> It is not something you would want to do indoors. It would take an age without being turned over in direct sun/heat, plus smell and general mess. A dry start would be less work than mineralizing. Or you can go right to flooding.


so by dry start you mean just straight out the backs right? and try to get out all the big wood pieces? and about iron i see people putting clay when they add dirt. What brand should i use?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

I believe the dry start is referring to the method where you dont fill the tank right away. You let the plants establish with atmospheric CO2. 

There was some concern later in the thread I posted about doing this on larger tanks. You would want to make sure the soil stays wet enough so it doesn't begin to break down too quickly and lead to possible algae/mold from the release of nutrients.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

jpappy789 said:


> I believe the dry start is referring to the method where you dont fill the tank right away. You let the plants establish with atmospheric CO2.
> 
> There was some concern later in the thread I posted about doing this on larger tanks. You would want to make sure the soil stays wet enough so it doesn't begin to break down too quickly and lead to possible algae/mold from the release of nutrients.


wait i still don't understand this? is there like a video you can link im confused? wont they die without water?


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

You keep the soil wet, mist the plants. Quite a few plants we keep in aquariums are not truly aquatic, but are typically found emersed.

Search "dry start method," there's a ton out there.


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## HuntCast (Aug 25, 2013)

I live in an apartment and have the same issues. Fill a couple of buckets halfway up with dirt, and the rest of the way with water. Put them in a closet or somewhere for a few days. Then take whatever is floating off the top of the water surface. Slowly drain out the water. Whatever stays in the bucket is dirt, and whatever floats out is stuff you don't want. Let it dry out a day or two, until it is like thick pudding, then place in your tank. Cap it with sand or gravel, and plant right away. Wait a while for livestock. Few weeks at soonest. Water chemistry is going to yo-yo back and forth until it becomes more stable. And water changes are good for the soul! Oh, and by few weeks, that is assuming a cycled tank.

p.s And no, it doesn't smell, and if it did, it would smell like fresh topsoil, which I kinda like anyway, lol.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

HuntCast said:


> I live in an apartment and have the same issues. Fill a couple of buckets halfway up with dirt, and the rest of the way with water. Put them in a closet or somewhere for a few days. Then take whatever is floating off the top of the water surface. Slowly drain out the water. Whatever stays in the bucket is dirt, and whatever floats out is stuff you don't want. Let it dry out a day or two, until it is like thick pudding, then place in your tank. Cap it with sand or gravel, and plant right away. Wait a while for livestock. Few weeks at soonest. Water chemistry is going to yo-yo back and forth until it becomes more stable. And water changes are good for the soul! Oh, and by few weeks, that is assuming a cycled tank.
> 
> p.s And no, it doesn't smell, and if it did, it would smell like fresh topsoil, which I kinda like anyway, lol.


Alright sounds good I'll try that thanks!


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Kavin2845 said:


> hey guys I'm gonna be starting my first planted tank soon and i had a few questions about them:
> 1. Do i just put miracle grow organic into the tank cap it then fill
> :help::help::help::help::help:


Yes! This! 
If you feel you *must* rinse, screen and otherwise pick through this material to use it then you bought the wrong stuff! 

Nothing done in tanking is really wrong unless everybody dies :icon_roll but screening, soaking or otherwise further 'processing' MGOCPM is not necessary for our purpose. Fun is to be had posting about it sure but the link provided by jpappy789 covers all flavors of the topic including what works the best. 

:fish:


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Nothing wrong bout sifting,screening out the wood chip's from Miracle grow Organic choice.(Yes I used the right stuff, and wood chips were maybe 1/3 of content's) 
Nothing wrong with leaving the stuff in the soil and capping it, if you don't mind that the wood chips will eventually find their way to the surface of substrate.
Is a matter of personal preference.


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wkndracer said:


> Yes! This!
> If you feel you *must* rinse, screen and otherwise pick through this material to use it then you bought the wrong stuff!
> 
> Nothing done in tanking is really wrong unless everybody dies :icon_roll but screening, soaking or otherwise further 'processing' MGOCPM is not necessary for our purpose. Fun is to be had posting about it sure but the link provided by jpappy789 covers all flavors of the topic including what works the best.
> ...


you know what i read what you wrote in that thread and i agree with you im just gonna take out the LARGE peices and keep the rest in and from what you wrote that the tank with the sifted dirt had more problems than the ones with out mad me come to my conclusion.
BTW
your avatar with the crocodile head covered in growth looks awesome!! i really wanna try that how did u do it?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

roadmaster said:


> Nothing wrong bout sifting,screening out the wood chip's from Miracle grow Organic choice.(Yes I used the right stuff, and wood chips were maybe 1/3 of content's)
> Nothing wrong with leaving the stuff in the soil and capping it, *if you don't mind that the wood chips will eventually find their way to the surface of substrate.*
> Is a matter of personal preference.


This 55g is over 4 1/2yrs wet on a single dirt load with only random trace dosing. 
Netted out a handfull of wood chips once during the first 3 months due to a gas burp on this my first dirty tank :redface:. 
The wood chips are long term reserves. 
Gotta dozen tanks with MGOCPM and these are the only floaters I ever see. 




such is life


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wkndracer said:


> This 55g is over 4 1/2yrs wet on a single dirt load with only random trace dosing.
> Netted out a handfull of wood chips once during the first 3 months due to a gas burp on this my first dirty tank :redface:.
> The wood chips are long term reserves.
> Gotta dozen tanks with MGOCPM and these are the only floaters I ever see.
> ...


really nice :drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:


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## HuntCast (Aug 25, 2013)

wkndracer said:


> This 55g is over 4 1/2yrs wet on a single dirt load with only random trace dosing.
> Netted out a handfull of wood chips once during the first 3 months due to a gas burp on this my first dirty tank :redface:.
> The wood chips are long term reserves.
> Gotta dozen tanks with MGOCPM and these are the only floaters I ever see.
> ...


What are they capped with? First two I did with gravel had WICKED bad tannin for a few weeks, so that is the only reason I float off the major chunks of wood first. Just did a 10 gallon your way though. Doing about 30 percent water changes every day for two weeks so far. ALMOST clear water now.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Kavin2845 said:


> really nice :drool::drool::drool::drool::drool::drool:


Thanxs! I'm happy with how it all worked out. The thread on that tank has all my worries and results posted in it but the bottom line is no regrets. 


HuntCast said:


> What are they capped with? First two I did with gravel had WICKED bad tannin for a few weeks, so that is the only reason I float off the major chunks of wood first. Just did a 10 gallon your way though. Doing about 30 percent water changes every day for two weeks so far. ALMOST clear water now.


(imo) The more material you remove (screening) the shorter the life span of the base. Light energy drives the bus so true, but the more material the longer it lasts,,, up to a point. Simple question of fuel and energy. 
The potting mix layer (imo) should be *no more* than 1.5 to 2" depth starting out. (Giving that as a range of depth understand my normal plan is to go for 1.5" but nothing is perfect.) Adding it to the tank dry press the palm of your hand against the soil layer and press down to compress it for the measurement. Depending on the frag size of the capping material I use anywhere from 1-2". I've mixed sand and Flourite original on several tanks. Black coal slag blasting media mixed with Eco Complete works well as a cap also. All flourite, pool filter sand have all worked out well for me.

Round pea gravel, river gravel and the like is something I see as problematic simply based on the shape and lack of seal it creates over the soil. 
Fill a jar with marbles and see how much water it will still hold.


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## HuntCast (Aug 25, 2013)

wkndracer said:


> Thanxs! I'm happy with how it all worked out. The thread on that tank has all my worries and results posted in it but the bottom line is no regrets.
> 
> (imo) The more material you remove (screening) the shorter the life span of the base. Light energy drives the bus so true, but the more material the longer it lasts,,, up to a point. Simple question of fuel and energy.
> The potting mix layer (imo) should be *no more* than 1.5 to 2" depth starting out. (Giving that as a range of depth understand my normal plan is to go for 1.5" but nothing is perfect.) Adding it to the tank dry press the palm of your hand against the soil layer and press down to compress it for the measurement. Depending on the frag size of the capping material I use anywhere from 1-2". I've mixed sand and Flourite original on several tanks. Black coal slag blasting media mixed with Eco Complete works well as a cap also. All flourite, pool filter sand have all worked out well for me.
> ...


That explains it! Pea gravel in the first one, and river gravel in the second! I just did a 1 liter bowl with rinsed play sand, and had no discoloration whatsoever. I plan on doing a 20 gal in a couple weeks, so I will go with your advice on the cap!


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## Kavin2845 (Mar 3, 2013)

wkndracer said:


> Thanxs! I'm happy with how it all worked out. The thread on that tank has all my worries and results posted in it but the bottom line is no regrets.
> 
> (imo) The more material you remove (screening) the shorter the life span of the base. Light energy drives the bus so true, but the more material the longer it lasts,,, up to a point. Simple question of fuel and energy.
> The potting mix layer (imo) should be *no more* than 1.5 to 2" depth starting out. (Giving that as a range of depth understand my normal plan is to go for 1.5" but nothing is perfect.) Adding it to the tank dry press the palm of your hand against the soil layer and press down to compress it for the measurement. Depending on the frag size of the capping material I use anywhere from 1-2". I've mixed sand and Flourite original on several tanks. Black coal slag blasting media mixed with Eco Complete works well as a cap also. All flourite, pool filter sand have all worked out well for me.
> ...


Thanks for all the help dude! I still have one more question I wanna have red tiger lotus in the tank and I was wondering how to add more iron to the tank I've heard of people adding clay to there dirt but there never mention any specific brand what do you use?
And
How did you do the crocodile head covered in whatever's covering it?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

wkndracer said:


> This 55g is over 4 1/2yrs wet on a single dirt load with only random trace dosing.
> Netted out a handfull of wood chips once during the first 3 months due to a gas burp on this my first dirty tank :redface:.
> The wood chips are long term reserves.
> Gotta dozen tanks with MGOCPM and these are the only floaters I ever see.
> ...


 
Well,I have only three tank's currently using the MGO choice .
Must take into account that some fish disturb substrate More than other's ,and some people too.!!
Also sand ,gravel cap, depth can influence what work's it's way to the surface. Deeper cap ,less find's it way to the surface.
I got lot's of wood in my tank's without adding it to the substrate.
Again,,it is matter of personal choice (my view) as to sifting the bark,from the MGOC.


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