# Throwing in the towel against BBA



## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

What size tank ? what light fixture?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I gave up and went to low-light-high-tech and now I'm algae free!


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for the responses. It's a 46 bow with a Zoo-Med T-5 HO fixture (not the best quality I know). The bulbs are about 6 months old. 

For the last couple months I've only been running the 6,500k bulb on a 4 on, 3 off, 4 on split photo period. I tried the same schedule with only the 10,000k bulb and the algae may have gotten worse.


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## Zefrik (Oct 23, 2011)

I would strip down you tank. Keep the lights and change to a dark substrate.


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Zefrik said:


> I would strip down you tank. Keep the lights and change to a dark substrate.


Sorry, how does that provide a solution? I've already done something similar months back when I changed substrates from gravel to PFS. The tank was stripped down, everything cleaned, plants had a h2o2 dip and the BBA popped back up shortly thereafter. Basically the only constant since the outbreak has been the lighting fixture and the filtration (Fluval 405).


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Does anyone have thoughts on the Marineland either single or double bright LED's? I want to be able to support the lowest light plants available...and completely discourage BBA.


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

eco23 said:


> ...and completely discourage BBA.


BBA is a super virus for planted tanks, so your energy may be better spent on treatment rather than avoidance. It can show up in any tank at any time without any obvious culprit. I've had it pop up in everything from dimly lit low tech tanks to my current setup with metal halides. Anyone who claims to never have issues with it is either extremely fortunate (neither of us are in that club) or spinning a yarn.

As long as you have lots of flow, good CO2, and adequate ferts, just treat the outbreaks with glutaraldehyde. Drain the tank, use a syringe the drench the algae with glut., cut out effected leaves, and follow up with spot treatments for 5-6 days until it's gone. The first big outbreak is usually the worst and may require daily 2x strength dosings for more than a week. Nature of the beast.

Spending a bunch of time and money to downgrade your lighting solely for the purpose of combating bba is setting yourself up for disappointment, imo.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Perhaps, but this mantra/dogma about how nothing matters except for the 'balance' and the never-ending 'you have to find the root cause' talk seems a bit reductionist to me.

I look at it like this:

To avoid algae and other issues, you have to balance light, ferts, circulation, CO2. But, some things are easy to balance - ferts can be used liberally using the EI technique. CO2 actually prevents algae in high doses so as long as the fish are OK it's easy to get good levels.

But the more light you have, the more accurately you must balance those other factors. More light means you need more everything and that balance gets harder to achieve. 

So YES lowering light isn't 100% sure to cure an algae problem but it certainly reduces the difficulty of just about everything. I am so far pretty happy with my low-light-high-tech tank


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

One layer of window screen will reduce your light levels to ~60% or a 40% reduction. Two layers will drop it to ~35% or a 65% reduction. Lots cheaper than new lights and easily reversible if you don't like it.


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

I completely destroyed my BBA about 6 months ago with some metricide14. Haven't seen a bit of it since then. 

On another note, if BBA has spores like almost all other algaes do, nuking everything but the filter will still leave it a hiding place to re-take your tank. Check on it yourself, but why go through all that trouble and not do the canister as well? I know you'd like to prevent a full cycle if possible, but is it really worth harboring potential spores to put you right back where you are now?


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## Booger (May 17, 2004)

Dave-H said:


> So YES lowering light isn't 100% sure to cure an algae problem but it certainly reduces the difficulty of just about everything. I am so far pretty happy with my low-light-high-tech tank



I agree that lowering light makes it slightly easier to maintain consistent water parameters , but my point is that there is no known set of parameters that bba cannot thrive in. I've had it show up twice in a fluval edge with only the pitiful stock lighting.

Lowering light makes sense if you are having trouble with other types of algae, want slower growth rates, don't have co2, etc. It doesn't make a lot of sense if the primary goal is to combat bba. Glutaraldehyde is much more direct approach.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I think I might have a very short napped mutation of BBA and it's growing over my slower growing plants in a reddish black coating that is tough as sandpaper. You'd tear up the leaves using your finger nail to scrape any off. Since I've introduced a couple of plecos, it seems to be slowly breaking up. I've also been running a 2x daily dose of Excel for a week to weaken it more. It likes real shady areas just as well as bright areas.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

1. High co2, 40 ppm or so, what ever your fish can handle. 2. Good balance of Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium and Microferts, with the Phosphate in the higher ranges of 3 to 4 ppm. 3. Flourish excel. Thats how I have managed to get mine knocked down.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

This is just my thought and it could be wrong but we are all susceptible to BBA and a million other pests in the water column and we disturb the balance that lets one take hold, in your case BBA. Excel can work well in double the normal dose for 5 to 7 days, also turn off the filters, etc and spot dose any BBA on intakes, rocks, wood for 15 minutes and then turn the filter back on, this should be done just prior to a water change. I have also removed wood and bleached BBA, then scrubbed with a brush, remove pieces of substrate with tongs, cut out bad plant leaves, etc. but you have to fight or it will win.

Also if you have a low tech there may be no need for flourish tabs and ferts, these are used in high tech tanks with rapid growth, so that's an area of concern too. We have all had it and it thrives in acidic soft water with decaying plant matter so try to keep filters clean without going over board, lightly vacuum with out penetrating the substrate, and hand remove any leaves etc.

I wish you good luck but starting over does not mean you won't have it again, my best advise is if you try anything do it all out and research first but have patience and make one change at a time then wait to see the result, good luck.

BTW I don't think it has anything to do with your lighting.


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## rezco (Jan 25, 2012)

Dave-H said:


> I gave up and went to low-light-high-tech and now I'm algae free!


Funny. I gave up and finally spent money on CO2 setup. No more algae. Now I have lush plants, and happy fish. Co2 ranges 20-25 ppm.

I tried the low tech approach for decades on and off. I do believe it can work for *some* people. ButI believe these systems are operating on the edge. It can take very slight perturbations to spike nutrient levels and smother everything in algae. 

Filter breakdowns, accidental overfeeding, skipped water changes, silicate spikes in tap water (diatom blooms). Temperature and ph fluctuations. Stuff happens right?

It is my thinking that co2 dosing combined with strong lighting acts to increase the consumption of nitrates, ammonia and phosphate. It does not appear algae can utilize co2 as well as plants. It simply gets outcompeted even in the background of high phosphate, nitrates.


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## Ann7667 (Mar 6, 2012)

*BBA problem*

Hi Eco23, When you say BBA is that black hair algae? I had that problem in my previous tank. And it was growing all over everything except the fish. It came into my tank on a plant I bought at my lfs. I saw the edges of a plant with a black trim on it and I wondered what it was, but I was just too trusting, thinking that my lfs would never sell something that would take over all the surfaces of my tank. I needed a larger tank anyway because we're getting too large. So, just to be sure I did not bring it into the new setup, I tossed everything but the fish. 
Sounds like there is a lot of good help on this website. Good luck with finding a solution!:fish1:


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## Ann7667 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Bba*

Hi Eco23, I was looking around on this site specifically at FAQs and saw an email by Jim Waring who discussed different kinds of ways to get rid of or control BBAHI both chemically and with different kinds of shrimp and fish. Wish I could tell you exactly where it is, but I'm picking away on my iPhone and it is slow going here.:smile: good luck with it.


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for the input everyone. The tank care is immaculate, 2-3x pwc's per week, no overfeeding, PFS is spotless (plants have root tabs so I figure they don't need more root fertalizer), always trimmed, cleaned, canister and hoses cleaned bi-weekly, not overstocked, etc... It's just the friggin BBA that's about to make me take a hammer to it 

There's simply no way I'm recycling the tank although I understand the reasoning. I'm not overstocked, but doing a fish-in cycle with that bio-load and species is not an option.

I understand total eradication is not necessarily a possibility...but a substantial reduction and control is acceptable to be. 

Chances are I'll do the total breakdown this weekend, ditch the more demanding plants and go total low-tech for now. I'm gonna try my hand with the LED's (not a fan of the look of my current lights anyway), and if all else fails and the problem isn't controlled, I'll break the T-5 HO's out of the closet and try the co2 route. I'll keep the thread updated.

Hi Ann, I do remember you had the same issue. Glad you solved it. If you want to try and talk my wife into upgrading the 46 to a 100+ gallon like you've got, and let me try co2...I'll be forever in your debt


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

HEY!!! I just saw this thread and won't take the time to read it but before you do anything try what I did. I fought with bba for like 2 months and finally I'm bba free and it hasn't re appeared. Cover the entire tank with a thick blanket for 3 days then take it off and dump about 6 oz. of h202 into the water, preferably over the spots with the most bba. Wait about 30 minutes then do a 50% wc and cut filter back on. Start your lights at 5 hours a day and then once your bba free for about 2 weeks work your way back up to a 10 hour cycle. If you have co2 and a drop checker make sure to keep that baby a yellowish tint. I did this exact thing to my bba/staghorn infested tank and since then I have not had one spot of algae and I'm back up to 8hr photo period.

Edit: you do not have co2 haha, Well simple fix-get it  to much light and no co2 will give you bba no matter what.


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## Ann7667 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Getting a larger tank*

Definitely, I love my 120 gallon, but I got a really good deal on it. It used to be a breeders and he stopped doing his business and my lfs got all of his tanks and I was happy with this one because it was such a good price and would make a roomier home for my fishies some of which are at 7" and growing. 
HOWEVER, I think I'm seeing a little new algae at the top of my tank on the air hose tubing. After after exploring this site, I see my mistakes - my light sits right on top of the glass, there is no Co2 AND the light is probably too low for successful plant growing but too high for the top of the tank and that is where I am seeing the algae. I'm looking into hanging the lights from the ceiling and getting them off of the top of the tank and taking the glass covers off the tank. But my cat jumps up there sometimes and that would be quite a surprise for her - not to mention the fishies! . . . or ME!
Hubby is getting a little nervous because I was talking about the lighting yesterday. 
It's probably another thing I'll have to do the next time he goes out of town. :angel:
I'm going to have to get the Co2 also! Scares me a little. Kind of like having a bomb in the house. I can't make a mistake with that one. 
Hubby would be reeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaal good at putting the Co2 DIY together. I would do make one following the instructions and hope for the best. I might just get the lights up and explain why I need the Co2 and ask him if he would rather do it or have me do it and I know he would make the wise decision.
I hope I'm not fighting BBA again. Have to run. I have to get to the lfs and make sure they have stopped the order for the lights I had purchased that would sit on top of my tank. Have to get hanging ones.


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## zchauvin (Apr 16, 2011)

Well there's a bad side to your plan though. Do one of the two, either put the lights higher so that there isn't as much or get a pressurized co2 system. A DIY co2 setup is not good for anything over about 20g. 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

My lights are right on the glass too. Lifting them up just a few extra inches will help with the top intensity and the light will also spread more evenly top to bottom in the tank. I'm working on a hanger and side shading to prevent blinding viewers. I hate canopies so I'm still looking for something that works and looks good to me.

DIY CO2 is good and has been used even on large tanks, but it had to be made at a larger scale than just a 2 liter bottle. A guy in India had two 5 gal jugs running his larger tank. Inconsistency is the biggest negative issue with DIY CO2. Pressurized CO2 doesn't have that issue and once you've taken the initial hit to acquire the setup, it's very cheap to run in the long term. I'm on the same 20 lb tank I got last summer and it's looking like it'll last till this summer if not longer.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

audioaficionado said:


> My lights are right on the glass too. Lifting them up just a few extra inches will help with the top intensity and the light will also spread more evenly top to bottom in the tank. I'm working on a hanger and side shading to prevent blinding viewers. I hate canopies so I'm still looking for something that works and looks good to me.
> 
> DIY CO2 is good and has been used even on large tanks, but it had to be made at a larger scale than just a 2 liter bottle. A guy in India had two 5 gal jugs running his larger tank. Inconsistency is the biggest negative issue with DIY CO2. Pressurized CO2 doesn't have that issue and once you've taken the initial hit to acquire the setup, it's very cheap to run in the long term. I'm on the same 20 lb tank I got last summer and it's looking like it'll last till this summer if not longer.


I don't know about in India but, I would argue you yould spend more on sugar for 5 gallon jugs than you would for CO2 gas. 
When I did yeast co2, I went through 5 lbs a month for those little nutrifin containers.


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## ZLogic (Aug 7, 2011)

Rather than spending the money on new lighting, why not increase the distance above the substrate that your light sits? I'm no expert or anything, but I'm pretty sure the amount of light you are providing isn't as important as the par levels that your plants are receiving and increasing the distance between the plants and the light would reduce the par output the plants are receiving.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Are you still here??  I was in the same situation as you were 6 months ago. This is what solved my BBA problems. You need to read up on EI dosing. Second, get yourself a regular pressurized CO2 system. Third, do 2 50% WC per week if you want to have 90% control of BBA. I still get BBA but you have to look really hard to find them. Also, they don't spread as fast too. I have the similar setup as you have. A duel T5ho fixture and a 40g tank. Don't redo tank without knowing what was causing your BBA problem. The chance is that the BBA will take hold of your redo tank.... 

There are 2 sure ways BBA will thrive in. Excessive organic waste in the tank water (over-stocking your fish, overfeeding, and dead leaves). Second is unhealthy plants either due to not enough CO2 or imbalance ferts.


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Ann7667 said:


> I'm going to have to get the Co2 also! Scares me a little. Kind of like having a bomb in the house. I can't make a mistake with that one.
> Hubby would be reeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaal good at putting the Co2 DIY together. I would do make one following the instructions and hope for the best. I might just get the lights up and explain why I need the Co2 and ask him if he would rather do it or have me do it and I know he would make the wise decision.
> I hope I'm not fighting BBA again. Have to run. I have to get to the lfs and make sure they have stopped the order for the lights I had purchased that would sit on top of my tank. Have to get hanging ones.


You're going to need a lot of 2 liter bottles of yeast mix to put a dent in a 120 gallons of water. THAT would worry me WAY more than pressurized CO2 bottles hanging around....and pressurized would be a whole lot cheaper in the long run. Not to mention actually work!

Here are some lights I put together with Zoo Med Deep Dome fixtures and some CPVC pipe. I don't have a batch of current pix online at the moment to show you how I switched out the chains with YoYo adjustable light pulls. I got them on e-bay for $8 a pair. I will put up some pix when I get the time soon!

Anyways, here are those deep domes at the best price I've found recently:

http://goo.gl/Rh0BJ

The beauty of these fixtures is that you can put whatever wattage lamp in them that you think you need, and you can raise and lower them easily enough. I have no complaints, especially for the price. I did have to modify the cords on them to their length, but if you or your hubby have any DIY skill that's trivial.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/153195-my-inexpensive-cfl-light-solution.html#post1595354

This is one of several threads on DIY lighting here on TPT. 

Good luck!


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## Ann7667 (Mar 6, 2012)

*Ottos*

I bought 5 ottos yesterday and they have eaten almost all the algae on the plant leaves and about half of the green dot algae on the front of the glass. What great little guys. So far none of them has been eaten although they will easily fit into most of my fishes mouths. Have you tried ottos?


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## TWA (Jan 30, 2012)

Ann7667 said:


> I bought 5 ottos yesterday and they have eaten almost all the algae on the plant leaves and about half of the green dot algae on the front of the glass. What great little guys. So far none of them has been eaten although they will easily fit into most of my fishes mouths. Have you tried ottos?


Unfortunately otos won't eat this kind of algae.


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Thanks for all the responses everyone. Sorry I'm slacking on the thread...if its not work related, I've barely got time to eat (but I do squeeze in pwc's and other aquarium related things). 

I'd have to do a ton of research on co2. I don't fully understand the process to be honest. The effect on pH would be of the most importance. My water has virtually no alkalinity, and without a little bag of CC in my filter...I'm prone to crashes despite the constant pwc's. 

I'll have to read back through the thread in a bit...work calls...again...ugh. 

Thanks everyone.


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

Alrighty...read back through. Definitely good points made, but I'm going to try and hit rewind as far back as possible with the tank. 

I'm in total agreement that a tank can never be algae free (maybe with some of the super high tech stuff you guys run), but for me it's an issue of management...not eradication. 

To reiterate, the tank gets 2-3x 30% pwc's per week, plants are trimmed regularly (no decaying plant matter), substrate is absolutely immaculate, tank is not overstocked, there is no overfeeding and all other facets like simple glass cleaning, canister and hose cleaning, etc...are being done to a T.

I have also done a tear down months before, and the BBA came back with a vengeance. The only constant has been the T-5 HO lighting. I already have the lights 4" above the tank and am only running 1 bulb. 

I have other tanks with low light LED's...there's no BBA even though I've moved plants from the effected tank into them. BBA simply isn't surviving in the other(s). It makes me lean towards the lighting since it seems to be the only variable in this tank. Maybe the fact it's a crappy Zoo-Med fixture is contributing somehow...I have no idea.

So...I ordered the ML Double-Bright LED's (I know they're not for planted tanks). Next weekend I'll strip the tank, trash the more demanding plants I have, and dip the Ferns, Crypts, Wisteria and Swords in either Excel or h2o2. I'm also replacing the DW I have in there. I'll do a thorough cleaning of the tank, canister (I'm not ditching the bio-media), hoses....everything all the way to the thermometer. The only existing things are gonna be the Bio-max and the PFS (not switching that out again anytime soon).

Not sure what to do about the Java Moss and the Anacharis I have..I know Excel will melt them, and I'm assuming h2o2 will as well. I do't want to ditch the Moss cause I've got an ungodly amount of RCS who consider it their personal kingdom. They'd become quick snacks for my Ram if it was trashed. I might just have to manually remove any BBA I see in the Moss. 

I'm going to start at the absolute minimum and build my way up slowly. Start with crap light, no ferts and low light plants. Assuming the situation is stable, I'll start building up a little at a time, perhaps working myself up to co2 in the future. If the BBA comes back quickly, I may have to ditch the plan, and go straight to co2 (after lots of reading up). 

With a fresh(ish) start, at least I'll have a better chance to keep on top of it and spot treat as it pops up....that's a hopeless cause at this point. I won't freak out if there's a bit of BBA...I just can't deal with entire plants getting covered in it. 

I'll update on how it goes....BBA is definitely a worthy adversary who is currently whooping my butt.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I had/have some black tough merged GSA algae that no one wanted to eat until I got 2 plecos. Now it looks like Swiss cheese and still slowly diminishing. My Otos only eat the soft short algaes like GDA.


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## eco23 (Nov 30, 2011)

BTW...the most affected areas are actually the highest flow zones. The plants in each corner next to the air stones, and even the output of the canister filter seem to have the worst of it. Does that make any sense that the areas of the most water movement would have the worst algae?


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

BBA doesn't mind low light and high flow areas. My LFS has most of their low light tanks infected right on the filter intake and outflow. Kinda worried that any fish I get there might have the spores in their gut.


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## whimsical54 (Nov 19, 2011)

eco23 said:


> BTW...the most affected areas are actually the highest flow zones. The plants in each corner next to the air stones, and even the output of the canister filter seem to have the worst of it. Does that make any sense that the areas of the most water movement would have the worst algae?


Yes I know what you mean I have the same problem in my tank in the highest flow zone(but it's visable throughout the whole tank).It's hard to remove all the dead organic matter I have baby guppies in this tank with mops/black diamond sand cap.Tomorrow 4 siamese algae eaters will arrive that I bought on aquabid and I've read that these are the only algae eaters that eat this type of algae so we will see.I'll let you know if this works.roud:


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