# Dying java ferns --- REASON FOUND!!!!



## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

my ferns are dying. they are in a 20L, i have 65w for most of the day but 130w for the middle of the day (few hours) the lights are 1 bulb 6700k (on all day), 1 bulb 10000K and actinic (just midday). i have pressurized CO2. temp is at 24.5 C. ph is 6.5 right now, and is always around there. i have had nitrate problems recently it measured 30 today, but i did a large water change and now it should be a bit below 15.

here are pics of it:


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Are the rhizomes buried? How long have they been in this tank?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no, one is on wood, the other is an inch above the substrate; and both have been there for monthes


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Could it be a K deficiency?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well im dosing Kent Pottasium (2ml twice a week), its below the recomended dose, but ive been doing that for a year, and they grew over 15 leaves since then, so i doubt it (and im using a new bottle, so its not expired, but i dont think they expire anyway).

the same thing started happening a month ago to the javas in my eclipse 3, but there i thought it was a deficiency since my lotus was also dying. but now i moved the bulb to the 20L tank (where the now dying ferns are and were for a year) and it grew a bunch of leaves, so im thinking low light was the problem for the lotus. i have no clue what was hurting the ferns (low light isnt it), they are still in there by the way. plus the brown spread much slower in the eclipse 3, my 20L ferns got it only 1.5 weeks ago and the brown patches are now covering as much of the plant as they are in the eclipse 3.

could it be an infection? i know terstrial plants can get them, but the most common cause is overwatering, which i doubt is the case for an aquatic plant in submerged form.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

i don't think the problem is any deficiency because ferns are hardy. if there's deficiency the leaves will kinda shrink. 

the last picture looks like a disease, i don't know what is that but i will ask around.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

oh and i just thought of something, all the ferns that got this were the same fern. not the same but, from the leaflets of one another and they all trace back to the first and only fern i ever bought; they all have identical DNA.


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## TLH (Apr 20, 2008)

It looks almost like something has eaten holes in the leaves to me. I wonder if there is an aquatic version of a leaf miner?

I know leaves can go skeletal with age, as mine have, but it looks nothing like what you have there.


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## Max F (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks like a disease to me, strange. I would get rid of them and buy some new ones.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i know thats what i was thinking was the only thing it could be in two completely different tanks. i will wait and see what happens though (the rhizomes seem undamaged, so maybe the leaves will die but new ones will grow back).


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

they are continuing to degenerate. more pictures available on the thread of my 20L. i inspected the rhizome of one of them, it appears perfectly healthy so maybe it will regrow.


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## teban (Feb 2, 2006)

i am not sure if this has something to do with lights. I have once had ferns with darkened leaves as well and i just leave it to eb and it changed all its leaves and is still thriving.

does the stems and rhizome also has some dark spots?


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

no, i mentioned that the rhizome looks healthy (at least the parts i could see from the roots). 

its happening in two seperate tanks so its not lighting nor nutrients. one is an eclipse three with 6 watts, the other is a 20L with 65 watts most of the day and 130 watts during the middle of the day. the dosing regimes are also different.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

in my eclipse 3 the oldest fern has lost all its leaves; but get this, i now see two leaves growing from it and they are completely healthy and are the size of 3/4 of my thumb. i think it will recover (unless it catches it again).


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## teban (Feb 2, 2006)

i do hope your plants recover soon enough goodluck buddy!


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

so do i, i spent hours yesterday cleaning the tanks and removing all the leaves of every java fern (they were all affected) except for the newest ones. 
the ones in the eclipse have new leaves, but the 2 in my 20L arent growing them yet. hopefully they will now that they dont have anything to photosynthise with.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

sorry to hear that marko... i showed your photos to some friends and they say different things. i'm clueless too here.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i have concluded it is an infection (nothing else fits, because nothing else is contagious). i probably spread by not washing my hands between going into different tanks. it only affects java ferns so i think i will call it MBBS (Microsorum Brown Blotch Syndrome).


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

I don't know if anyone previous said this but java ferns don't like high lighting. I've had them grow better in a very shaded room than when I had them in my planted tank.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

its not that high. they can do fine in lower light, but do well in medium-high too. they were growing like mad for a year now in that tank, so i dont think its the lighting. plus its happening in my eclipse 3 too, which is 2wpg and a small tank so its got even less lumens. actually that tank caught MBBS first.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Natty said:


> I don't know if anyone previous said this but java ferns don't like high lighting. I've had them grow better in a very shaded room than when I had them in my planted tank.


Mine are growing fine in a high light tank. I do have them off to one side, but they are exploding with new growth.

I had something similar to this happen to me once. It was before I started dosing macros and injecting CO2. The ferns developed dark spots and then a little plantlet formed on most of the dark spots in the middle of the leaves. After a while, they detached from the mother plant and scattered around the tank. I am not saying that is what is happening to you, but I wanted to throw the possibility out there.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

yes i did see an increase in plantlet growth, but i think thats due to the fact that they were cut off from food supply and thus began to grow so they could make their own. 


my ferns in the 20L are getting better:










the ones in my eclipse have 2 leaves each, and one in my 20L is giving off healthy new leaves before the old even is fully dead. the other had all the leaves cut off and has no new growth, but im still pretty sure it will do ok (the rhizome is undamaged and can store nutrients for a while).


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

BiscuitSlayer said:


> Mine are growing fine in a high light tank. I do have them off to one side, but they are exploding with new growth.


I guess we're both having different experiences on that one. I moved mines to a high light tank and my fern that was thriving in my 0.5wpg tank was starting to develop black spots. It ended up getting to the point where I thought the fern was catching on fire, since its under water I excluded that theory :hihi:


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

what kind of black spots?
it could have just been algae, meaning that the fern didnt acclimate yet, not that it wont do well once it does. a lot of high light ferns get some GSA on the older leaves. but i didnt see it so i cant tell.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> what kind of black spots?
> it could have just been algae, meaning that the fern didnt acclimate yet, not that it wont do well once it does. a lot of high light ferns get some GSA on the older leaves. but i didnt see it so i cant tell.


Its not algae, none that I know of. They just seem to disintegrate, as in vampires exposed to the sun. I've never been able to keep java ferns over 2wpg. Bad luck or something :icon_roll


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## duzzy (Feb 6, 2008)

Hi there,

here are shots of what the spots look like

Regards Darren


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

those are nothing like MBBS


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## duzzy (Feb 6, 2008)

G'day Marko, 

what does MBBS refer to?

Regards Darren


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

its what i named the thing my plants got. nobody had a clue as to what it was, so i called it MBBS:
*M*icrosorum
*B*rown
*B*lotch
*S*yndrome

however, i found out what it is. see next post.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

So everyone, i found out what did this. first let me tell you the ferns recovered, especially in the eclipse 3 where they grew like mad. on wednesday they were fine, but friday, it reoccured. so i knew it was either an infection or something i did on wednesday (nothing was touched inbetween). i did a top-off, and dosed. i dosed same as i did before i tore the tank down and that never did anything, and its not in my tap. so i was left clueless. then, while reading Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad which i recently bought, i got my answer: 
"I had a first-hand experience with iron toxicity when I mixed potting soil with laterite, which is sold as an iron-rich clay. (At the time, I mistakenly thought I needed to add iron to the substrate.) Although I only added a cup of laterite to the potting soil underlayer, within two weeks the floating plants died. Java fern turned brown and died" [pg 132]
now, this may not seem to be the problem, as i dosed the same amount of iron as i had before the re-setup. but, before i had regular gravel. now i have flourite red and eco-complete, the combination is the same i used in my 20L and i know it is very rich in iron. i also occasionally put a few drops of iron in the 20L where it also occured. the plants there are recovering, and im off to do a waterchange. no more iron dosing for me.


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