# Nothing is growing in my low tech tank



## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Hello, I'm loosing my mind, nothing is ever growing in my aquariums, not even the easiest plants.
Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig, sagitaria subulata, echinodorus bleheri, corkscrew vallisneria and cryptocoryne wendtii.
My water parameters is:
N: 30ppm
P: 1ppm
K: 15ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm
Ammonia: 0 ppm
PH: ~7.5
GH: 180ppm
KH: 107ppm.

Temperature: 25c

Every week I am dosing Easy-life ProFito fertilizer, daily dose of excel and phosphorus. Substrate is dennerle deponit-mix black 10in1 with gravel on top + root tabs.
Aquarium is stock Fluval Flex 57L 

Lighting is 9hours a day.

Here is some photos how plants look like now.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @DomDom

Welcome to TP!!

Here is what is in the Easy-life ProFito fertilizer:


> *Advantages of Easy-Life ProFito for aquarium plants*
> 
> 
> Highly concentrated, all-in-one, universal developped plant food
> ...


Please note that the only macro-nutrient it contains is potassium. Where are the other two macro-nutrients nitrogen and phosphorus? Both being necessary for healthy growth. I would suggest using Tropica Specialised Nutrition instead which does contain nitrogen and phosphorus. I do hate All-in-One ferts that don't have all the necessary nutrients. -Roy


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

@Seattle_Aquarist He measured values of NO3 being 30ppm and PO4 being 1ppm, which should be plenty.

I'm thinking maybe the pH or KH test is a bit off and he's running out of CO2.

@DomDom: When do you measure the values? Morning or evening? If in the morning it might be that all the CO2 is being used up rather quick as all other nutrients are plenty.
Even then the plants are rather easy and should still grow ... but as it looks like not even algae grows?

Do you put anything else in the water except for the fertilizer? Maybe some anti-algae stuff?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

You probably don’t need the Excel. How old is the tank?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

People always blame the ferts even though the listed numbers are good. No mention of type of light or how long the tank has been setup.


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

I was measuring ph in the evening. Tank is three months old now. But I already removed some plants because they pretty much died off. I used other brands fertilizers without any succes in the past. Lighting is 10,8w 2450lm 7500k led (default that fluval flex has). I don't have any algae problems yet, there was some bba on the wood, but after scraping it still hasn't came back. Now that you mentioned it maybe could co2 problems, but what can be done in non-co2 tank?


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Those plants should grow even without additional CO2 ... very slow, but they should grow or at least not die off.
That's why I asked if you put anything else into the water.

You do regular water changes?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> Those plants should grow even without additional CO2 ... very slow, but they should grow or at least not die off.
> That's why I asked if you put anything else into the water.
> 
> You do regular water changes?


I trying to do less frequent water changes, some people say its better for low tech. But I also tried doing weekly water changes and still no difference. And no, I don't put anything else in the water. I just do 50% tap and 50% distilled water changes 😞


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

DomDom said:


> I trying to do less frequent water changes, some people say its better for low tech. But I also tried doing weekly water changes and still no difference. And no, I don't put anything else in the water. I just do 50% tap and 50% distilled water changes 😞


Less water changes are only better in the sense that you aren't removing naturally occurring fertilizer from the water. If your dosing than water changes are always beneficial. 

Are you trimming any leaves. I would be taking a good 1/3 of the original leaves off the plants and see what develops. Crypts can sit there for a long time, especially in low tech and do nothing.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hmmmmmm. 

Ok if you are running a low tech tank CO2 is a non-issue. Plenty of basic easy plants will grow perfectly well with no CO2. 

Plants do take a while to acclimate and will not grow/ might even melt back during that period, but after three months you should be seeing growth on something.

Your ferts and parameters and temperature all sound fine. You should be able to grow plants in those conditions. 

Where do you get the plants from? Are they all from the same source? Is it possible they were damaged/frostbitten during transport? 

The plants I see in your pics don’t seem to be doing too bad.... the crypts are probably fine, they’re just really slow to do anything. My wendtii is only now losing its last emersed leaves, after, like, 5 months in the tank. 

Val is sensitive to excel so if you were dosing excel that could be hurting the val. In fact all plants are a little sensitive while they’re establishing in a new tank and during that period excel can be hard on them. If you keep the organics in the tank low and control your light (no overfeeding, regular water changes, no overstocking, removing dead plant matter, around 7-8 hrs of light) you shouldn’t have any algae problems even without excel. If algae appears you can spot treat it instead of constantly dosing the tank. Anyway excel is sold as ‘carbon’ so we all start out thinking it will help our plants but it doesn’t.

Hygro can be a weird level of drama queen considering it’s an invasive weed lol. I think maybe it doesn’t like captivity. I have a low tech tank with 39 plant species and I only have two who are stunting/ being weird about things- one is hygro polysperma and the other is rotala indica. Other 37 things just get on with growing.

I’d suggest trying with a few plants that are really likely to grow fast and well. Water Wisteria (hygro difformis I think), limnophila sessiliflora, myriophyllum aquaticum, these I can practically guarantee WILL grow. Then if we can prove that the tank can indeed grow plants, we can branch out from there.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

If you have a good, clean, bubbly mineral water, you can add a bit to the tank.
However, VERY little ... about 20ml is enough. (That already adds about 2.5mg/l CO2 to your tank)

I sometimes do this as a boost for the plants, since it adds a good amount of minerals and some CO2.

Best dosed in the mornings so the plants have to whole day.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> If you have a good, clean, bubbly mineral water, you can add a bit to the tank.
> However, VERY little ... about 20ml is enough. (That already adds about 2.5mg/l CO2 to your tank)
> 
> I sometimes do this as a boost for the plants, since it adds a good amount of minerals and some CO2.
> ...


Low tech tanks are a thing tho.... 

Personally I’d want to first find a way to make the tank function as a normal low tech tank. Then when things are established and growing one could play with mineral water, with diy CO2... whatever. But it is definitely a fact that thousands of people run lush and successful low tech tanks without any CO2 addition... so adding it here into a problematic situation would just obscure the issue?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

DomDom said:


> Lighting is 10,8w 2450lm 7500k led (default that fluval flex has). I don't have any algae problems yet, there was some bba on the wood, but after scraping it still hasn't came back. Now that you mentioned it maybe could co2 problems, but what can be done in non-co2 tank?


Another possibility is too much light, in that case lack of co2 or some fert could hinder growth, but you usually would see algae in this case. The more light the more the need for co2, co2 than will require more ferts to make it all work.

Actually 2450lm on a 15G seems like pretty strong light to me.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Another possibility is too much light, in that case lack of co2 or some fert could hinder growth, but you usually would see algae in this case. The more light the more the need for co2, co2 than will require more ferts to make it all work.


Yap. But he’s using a kit light like me and those tend to be on the ‘barely enough’ side.... his photo period is 9h which is the same as mine, and he isn’t seeing algae, like me, so that makes me think light isn’t the issue....?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Actually 2450lm on a 15G seems like pretty strong light to me.


Hmm that is more strength than mine, and the tank is smaller.

Maybe reduced photo period would be beneficial? I don’t know if that light dims....

But I still feel with all the info listed the plants should be growing.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Low tech tanks are a thing tho....
> 
> Personally I’d want to first find a way to make the tank function as a normal low tech tank. Then when things are established and growing one could play with mineral water, with diy CO2... whatever. But it is definitely a fact that thousands of people run lush and successful low tech tanks without any CO2 addition... so adding it here into a problematic situation would just obscure the issue?


Absolutely agree, been running a few lowtech tanks myself. (And currently running a nice little cube  )
However, the post sounds like it's been going on for quite some time and "nothing ever grows" ... while all the values look really good.
DomDom also tried different fertilizers and nothing seems to work and as Asteroid said, too much light would also cause algae ... but not even these are growing, despite a lot of nutrients!

So I thought giving it a little nudge might help.

But I just spotted something you made me aware of. @DomDom ... did you try not giving Excel? I read that some people have problems with it in low-tech tanks.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Yap. But he’s using a kit light like me and those tend to be on the ‘barely enough’ side.... his photo period is 9h which is the same as mine, and he isn’t seeing algae, like me, so that makes me think light isn’t the issue....?


Not all kits are created equally. Generally yes, I agree with you. Which kit do you have?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

I had aquarium with vals maybe half a year before, just before buying this aquarium kit. I didnt dose excel in that tank and it was pretty much the same. However, I did noticed that I was running low on phosphorus, so started dosing it everyday to keep 1ppm. I will try not using excel from now on. Heres some close up photo on hygrophila:


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Hmm that is more strength than mine, and the tank is smaller.
> 
> Maybe reduced photo period would be beneficial? I don’t know if that light dims....
> 
> But I still feel with all the info listed the plants should be growing.


Light drives the need for co2 and ferts. So it can most definitely affect growth. Your tank I believe is 1/2 the lumens and the tank is twice the size. Yours is geared toward lowlight plants OPs can grow much more.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Light drives the need for co2 and ferts. So it can most definitely affect growth. Your tank I believe is 1/2 the lumens and the tank is twice the size. Yours is geared toward lowlight plants OPs can grow much more.


But he’d have to add co2? 

I understood he was trying to run it low tech... I know this goes against your deepest religious beliefs 😅 But if he wanted to run the tank low tech, would he benefit from dimming the light, or shortening the photo period? 

Although there was that guy who was running a low tech tank with high light, active substrate and cold water, but he was like a scientist or something....


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> But he’d have to add co2?
> 
> I understood he was trying to run it low tech... I know this goes against your deepest religious beliefs 😅 But if he wanted to run the tank low tech, would he benefit from dimming the light, or shortening the photo period?


Yes and yes. If you go low tech you go low and slow. Unless he dimmed the light (looks like you can) If you push a tank with light the plants are more likely to show deficiencies as opposed to one with lower light and things come in slow. So yeah less light and lower temp if possible.


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Thank you for your help! I will try dimming the lights, lowering temp and will not dose excel from tomorrow morning. I will let you know how it goes.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Sure, I would also pick a few leaves and trim them off. Many times that gets the plant going.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Yeah I trim any damaged leaves and I think my plants really like it.

I also find some plants never quite adapt to the tank but with time they make babies who are much better adapted.


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## BigMamaCleo (Jul 26, 2020)

Kitsune said:


> If you have a good, clean, bubbly mineral water, you can add a bit to the tank.
> However, VERY little ... about 20ml is enough. (That already adds about 2.5mg/l CO2 to your tank)
> 
> I sometimes do this as a boost for the plants, since it adds a good amount of minerals and some CO2.
> ...


I’ve seen you recommend this before and think I’m going to try it in one of my 10g tanks. What is ratio you suggest? I don’t want to overdo it. And you think Pellegrino would be good enough?


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Not sure about Pellegrino, I have a sodastream and create the bubbly water myself. 😅 
Though a few years back I used basically whatever mineral water I had left over ... as long as it has no additions as in "now with more this" or "extra much minerals!"

10 gallon being around 35 liters, classical bubbly water having 7-8g/l CO2 (at least here in Germany), 5ml should add about 1mg/l to your tank. I would start with 15-20ml and see how the tank reacts. 

As said, I can only talk from a German water viewpoint ... not sure how the laws for drinking water are over there, so you might want to inspect that before adding it to your tank.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

It doesn't seem like that would have any long lasting benefits, so not sure what the temporary "co2 boost" will accomplish. Many carbonated products have NaCl in them.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

There was a fish guy on YouTube who did an experiment trying to supplement CO2 with mineral water and his final conclusion was too much effort for not enough payoff, you have to keep adding more and more, and also a tds increase from the mineral water that was a pain to deal with... if you’re going the diy way maybe better to try and put together a homemade yeast and sugar/ or citric acid CO2 setup.


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## BigMamaCleo (Jul 26, 2020)

Thanks, everyone. @Asteroid, this was merely a short term trial of curiosity. I never had plans of anything more than a day or two or three to see what might happen. I’m not sure I’ll pursue it, not knowing about the water, but I might research it a bit more. As @LidijaPN said, it’s probably not worth it. Thanks, @Kitsune for getting back with me.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

BigMamaCleo said:


> Thanks, everyone. @Asteroid, this was merely a short term trial of curiosity.


Got it. 

A little bit of Planted Tank History:



Spoiler



In 1977, Amano made a breakthrough in the world of aquarium plant keeping: carbon dioxide injection. *He experimented with carbonated water after noticing, while out drinking in a bar, bubbles in carbonated drinks*. When he added carbonated water to his tanks, he found that the bubbles appeared here too



...and so the co2-injected tank was born.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Got it.
> 
> A little bit of Planted Tank History:
> 
> ...


seriously? There was no CO2 in tanks before 77?


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## Virtus (11 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> seriously? There was no CO2 in tanks before 77?


That was 45 years ago...


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## BigMamaCleo (Jul 26, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> Got it.
> 
> A little bit of Planted Tank History:
> 
> ...


Is this for real, or are you just yanking my chain?? 😂. Whenever I do start CO2 for real, I expect good feedback from you. Lol


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

BigMamaCleo said:


> Is this for real, or are you just yanking my chain?? 😂. Whenever I do start CO2 for real, I expect good feedback from you. Lol


I don't joke about co2 planted tanks (well sometimes I do) it's serious business.









Amano’s view – Nature Aquarium World – #3 | AQUA DESIGN AMANO


This is the essay Takashi Amano wrote for his planted aquarium collection book Glass no Naka no Daishizen ( Nature Aquarium World ) published in 1992. It gives the opportunity to understand Amano's unique views of nature and his experience.




www.adana.co.jp


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## RK3WL (10 mo ago)

I had 3 tanks (20 10 5) from 1973 to 1985. My son fed the fish play-dough. Last time I kept fish..... 3 weeks in now. We never heard of CO2 then. The only thing I checked was PH. A cycle was something with 2 wheels


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## Tommy78 (May 28, 2021)

Kitsune said:


> If you have a good, clean, bubbly mineral water, you can add a bit to the tank.
> However, VERY little ... about 20ml is enough. (That already adds about 2.5mg/l CO2 to your tank)
> 
> I sometimes do this as a boost for the plants, since it adds a good amount of minerals and some CO2.
> ...


Does the mineral water effect the fish in any way? Or can it affect any particular fish in a planted tank?
I breed Plecos and go for all the rarer species and have dither fish like neons and imported Oranda’s breeding as well and wonder if it could affect the fry or be of a benefit to the fish as well as the plants 
I have never used cO2 as yet but feel my plants could do with a boost every now and then and your idea sounds like fair logic for a weekly dash of minerals and cO2
Having a bunch of different sized tanks,I have to ask - if you recommend 20mls , what size tank or to how many gallons or litres do you generally add it to?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Virtus said:


> That was 45 years ago...


Crap I’m old 😂 (born ‘78, just after the CO2 tank)


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Tommy78 said:


> Does the mineral water effect the fish in any way? Or can it affect any particular fish in a planted tank?
> I breed Plecos and go for all the rarer species and have dither fish like neons and imported Oranda’s breeding as well and wonder if it could affect the fry or be of a benefit to the fish as well as the plants
> I have never used cO2 as yet but feel my plants could do with a boost every now and then and your idea sounds like fair logic for a weekly dash of minerals and cO2
> Having a bunch of different sized tanks,I have to ask - if you recommend 20mls , what size tank or to how many gallons or litres do you generally add it to?


Hiya,

I can only talk from my fish, which were fine ... but those were always very robust species, as in Poecilia or Ancistrus.
The amount I dose really depends on the tank size and you will have to check your local averages and mineral water qualities.
Quite a few people in Germany dump rests of mineral water in their tank but I can only repeat, I do not know about the quality and contents of mineral water all over the world. 

Here the average for classical water is 7-8g/l CO2. If I calculate with 7500mg/l CO2, 5ml of the mineral water will add 37.5 mg of CO2 to your whole system, so in the case of a 10g tank, about 1mg/l.

I would not recommend understanding the mineral water as the main CO2 source though, neither would I use it to go up to 20mg/l.
It's more of a "here's a little extra".

Bluntly put, if you breed any rare species or keep any rare and difficult plants, which requires a metric ton of effort, I would not do any experiments.


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## Potterydeb (11 mo ago)

DomDom said:


> Hello, I'm loosing my mind, nothing is ever growing in my aquariums, not even the easiest plants.
> Hygrophila polysperma rosanervig, sagitaria subulata, echinodorus bleheri, corkscrew vallisneria and cryptocoryne wendtii.
> My water parameters is:
> N: 30ppm
> ...


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## kfish (Nov 14, 2020)

I feel your pain DomDom. I have a brown thumb when it comes to aquariums. My parameters are the same as yours except my KH an GH are a little lower. I've been trying for over a decade to get plants to grow. They always look like yours or much worse. If I increase the light intensity or duration, the plants don't do any better, but the algae likes it. If I decrease the lights, the plants still do poorly, but the algae goes away. I source my plants from well known suppliers and they are always robust and healthy until I put them in my tanks. I've tried plants that have been grown submerged, emersed, and lab grown. Makes no difference. I've stoppped trying stem plants because they don't last 2 weeks. Java fern and Anubius disintergrate. Water lilly just grows tiny leaves that lie on the substrate. Cryps sometime survive, but barely grow. I have a sword plant that only grows 4" tall and rarely puts out new leaves. In the past year I have started growing emersed plants out of this tank and they are robust and healthy, so at least I know the water is good for plants. I've asked on various planted tank forums, but nothing has helped. I had a guy at my house that has several beuatiful successful planted tanks. He had nothing to add that has not already been tried. In the end he just said, keep trying. 



My light is Finnex Planted+
Ferts are 2HR aquarist. Also K
Fish are healthy and long lived.
N= 20ppm
P=1.5ppm
pH =7.5
KH=70
GH=90 


I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Just wanted you to know your not alone. It's so frustrating.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

kfish said:


> ...I've stoppped trying stem plants because they don't last 2 weeks. Java fern and Anubius disintergrate.


Plants like anubias usually don't disintegrate. Are you adding anything else to the water. Excel, etc.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

kfish said:


> I feel your pain DomDom. I have a brown thumb when it comes to aquariums. My parameters are the same as yours except my KH an GH are a little lower. I've been trying for over a decade to get plants to grow. They always look like yours or much worse. If I increase the light intensity or duration, the plants don't do any better, but the algae likes it. If I decrease the lights, the plants still do poorly, but the algae goes away. I source my plants from well known suppliers and they are always robust and healthy until I put them in my tanks. I've tried plants that have been grown submerged, emersed, and lab grown. Makes no difference. I've stoppped trying stem plants because they don't last 2 weeks. Java fern and Anubius disintergrate. Water lilly just grows tiny leaves that lie on the substrate. Cryps sometime survive, but barely grow. I have a sword plant that only grows 4" tall and rarely puts out new leaves. In the past year I have started growing emersed plants out of this tank and they are robust and healthy, so at least I know the water is good for plants. I've asked on various planted tank forums, but nothing has helped. I had a guy at my house that has several beuatiful successful planted tanks. He had nothing to add that has not already been tried. In the end he just said, keep trying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There’s gotta be something weird in that water... do you have a city water report? Old pipes that could be leaching something weird? What’s the temperature?


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## Joe M (12 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Hmmmmmm.
> 
> Ok if you are running a low tech tank CO2 is a non-issue. Plenty of basic easy plants will grow perfectly well with no CO2.
> 
> ...


I couln't agree with you more! I've been running a low tech, graveled 29 gal tank now for about 5 years. I've tried the usual rooted plants like saggiatria, amazon sword etc and, regardless of using root tabs, my beard grew 50 times faster than those plants! lol They "grew" so slow that they'd eventually get all gunked up with algaes and mulm. Then I switched over to all stem plants (Rotala rotundifolia, Ambulia (Limnophila sessiflora), Alternanthera reineckii, Ludwigia repens, Moneywort (Bacopa monieri) and Hygrophilia cormybosa angustifolia). Yea, the Hygro can get quirky, but other than that, once they'd acclimated, they took off like crazy. Snip and replant, I've now got a jungle tank! And my nitrates are finally in check and only need to do 20% water change/vacuum once every 2 weeks. I add API Leaf Zone for potassium and iron, and also dose phosphate and Excel. Oh, and I use Chemipure green to keep the water crystal clear, which I believe reduces dissolved organics. And so, keeping it simple worked out for me. NPK + stem plants = success. 

PS: Here's a funny, but true tip for those who don't know. For potassium dosing, I use Fleet brand enema and check tank levels with API test kit. 1 bottle seems to last forever and saves lots of money. No lewd comments, please. : )


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Joe M said:


> PS: Here's a funny, but true tip for those who don't know. For potassium dosing, I use Fleet brand enema and check tank levels with API test kit. 1 bottle seems to last forever and saves lots of money. No lewd comments, please. : )


You know you could buy a pound of dry *K2SO4* for $5 and it will last beyond forever and you won't run the risk of lewd comments


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## Joe M (12 mo ago)

RK3WL said:


> I had 3 tanks (20 10 5) from 1973 to 1985. My son fed the fish play-dough. Last time I kept fish..... 3 weeks in now. We never heard of CO2 then. The only thing I checked was PH. A cycle was something with 2 wheels


I remember those days. The filters all ran on mechanical air pumps, which were loud rackety things; and those up-and-coming quiet vibrator-style pumps usually burned out in several months. Didn't run the filters 24/7 because of the noise. Filter media was simply "angel hair" (floss) and carbon. Lots of us used incandescent lighting and our accessories were a glass heater (guaranteed to crack and fillup with water), a thermometer and a net. Oh, and maybe an air tube to a bubbling diver ornament. lol The savvy hobyist knew to do a 20% water change every week, and we would search for a fish food that didn't turn the water cloudy. That was it. As a kid, I just thought that tropical fish were something that had to be replaced once every month or so. Really sad.

Getting back to the hobby 5 years ago, I first did my research and was amazed at how far we have come in knowledge of fish and plant husbandry. We now strive to create healthy ecosystems, which we didn't know how to do it right in the past.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Plants like anubias usually don't disintegrate. Are you adding anything else to the water. Excel, etc.


Objection! In my newest tank, 3 out of 5 Anubias disintegrated. 
Nothing added to the water except for Prime and normal fertilizer.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> Objection! In my newest tank, 3 out of 5 Anubias disintegrated.
> Nothing added to the water except for Prime and normal fertilizer.


that is so weird. I'd love to know why this happens to some people. I've seen other threads on here too of people saying 'my water won't grow anything and I don't know why' and all their regular stats are normal looking..... it must be something we don't check for.


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## rnicolaidis (Dec 28, 2021)

Hello, DomDom!

I believe it is a lack of CO2, as many have answered before.
Here are my 2 cents on how to improve the situation in a "low tech" tank:



DomDom said:


> My water parameters is:
> N: 30ppm
> P: 1ppm
> K: 15ppm
> ...


1. *Try lowering your KH *

Why:
Without CO2 injection to push pH down, the more KH you have, the more alkaline will be your water.
The more alkaline your water is, the less inorganic carbon will be in CO2 form (it will be in the form of bicarbonate, instead).
Many plants are not able to use bicarbonates, and even the ones that can prefer carbon dioxide.










How:
I would suggest using RODI water remineralized for GH only.



DomDom said:


> Temperature: 25c


2. *Try lowering the temperature*
_(if your livestock can endure lower temperatures, of course)_

Why:
Naturally occurring CO2 will be more soluble in lower temperatures.













DomDom said:


> Lighting is 9hours a day.


3. *Try a "Siesta" in your photoperiod*

Why:
Without CO2 injection, plant photosynthesis can deplete dissolved CO2 levels in the first hours of the photoperiod. By turning lights off for a few hours, we allow CO2 levels to rise again.










How:
Insert a 3-4 hour ´_siesta_´ in your photoperiod. You could (for a 10 h photoperiod) have your lights configured to turn on for 5 hours, then 3 hours of lights off, followed by 5 hours of lights on again.

Good luck!


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> that is so weird. I'd love to know why this happens to some people. I've seen other threads on here too of people saying 'my water won't grow anything and I don't know why' and all their regular stats are normal looking..... it must be something we don't check for.


I had that with fresh tanks only. That's why I always wait 2-3 weeks before putting in Bucephalandra (because they're expensive)
My fresh tanks melt them, after a few weeks they usually work! Except for the recent in-vitro batch ... but I think those got damages in transit.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> I had that with fresh tanks only. That's why I always wait 2-3 weeks before putting in Bucephalandra (because they're expensive)
> My fresh tanks melt them, after a few weeks they usually work! Except for the recent in-vitro batch ... but I think those got damages in transit.


oh for buce I've read all over the place they do NOT like an uncycled tank and are better added to mature setups... but I haven't heard the same for anubias?

Yeah TC plants are generally more delicate and some really don't fare well during transport...


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Kitsune said:


> Objection! In my newest tank, 3 out of 5 Anubias disintegrated.
> Nothing added to the water except for Prime and normal fertilizer.





Kitsune said:


> I had that with fresh tanks only. That's why I always wait 2-3 weeks before putting in Bucephalandra (because they're expensive)
> My fresh tanks melt them, after a few weeks they usually work! Except for the recent in-vitro batch ... but I think those got damages in transit.


I wasn't under the impression his tank was "fresh" he said he was trying for decades. Some claim plants might melt from elevated ammonia levels especially if your using active soils. 

He also stated his java fern disintegrated in 2 weeks. That doesn't happen from improper lights/ferts.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> I wasn't under the impression his tank was "fresh" he said he was trying for decades. Some claim plants might melt from elevated ammonia levels especially if your using active soils.
> 
> He also stated his java fern disintegrated in 2 weeks. That doesn't happen from improper lights/ferts.


Did I dream that I read somewhere the tank was 3 months old...? Can't find it now... maybe that was on a different thread....

But yeah the extreme meltage just sounds weird. What could even do that? Like if there was something in the water that usually isn't tested for? I've seen people report having trouble growing plants if they have exceptionally hard water or if the tank is kept very warm...... but this seems a little voodoo.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> Did I dream that I read somewhere the tank was 3 months old...?


Stop inhaling that DIY co2.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Stop inhaling that DIY co2.


Slander and villainy! I haven't even made any yet 😂 😂 😂


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Stop inhaling that DIY co2.


A-HA, VINDICATION!!



DomDom said:


> I was measuring ph in the evening. *Tank is three months old now*. But I already removed some plants because they pretty much died off. I used other brands fertilizers without any succes in the past. Lighting is 10,8w 2450lm 7500k led (default that fluval flex has). I don't have any algae problems yet, there was some bba on the wood, but after scraping it still hasn't came back. Now that you mentioned it maybe could co2 problems, but what can be done in non-co2 tank?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> A-HA, VINDICATION!!


Nice try, but I was responding to kfish. See post #41 Got anything else? You too Kitsune 

[/QUOTE]


kfish said:


> I feel your pain DomDom. I have a brown thumb when it comes to aquariums. My parameters are the same as yours except my KH an GH are a little lower. *I've been trying for over a decade to get plants to grow.* They always look like yours or much worse. If I increase the light intensity or duration, the plants don't do any better, but the algae likes it. If I decrease the lights, the plants still do poorly, but the algae goes away. I source my plants from well known suppliers and they are always robust and healthy until I put them in my tanks. I've tried plants that have been grown submerged, emersed, and lab grown. Makes no difference. *I've stoppped trying stem plants because they don't last 2 weeks. Java fern and Anubius disintergrate. *Water lilly just grows tiny leaves that lie on the substrate. Cryps sometime survive, but barely grow. I have a sword plant that only grows 4" tall and rarely puts out new leaves. In the past year I have started growing emersed plants out of this tank and they are robust and healthy, so at least I know the water is good for plants. I've asked on various planted tank forums, but nothing has helped. I had a guy at my house that has several beuatiful successful planted tanks. He had nothing to add that has not already been tried. In the end he just said, keep trying.
> I'm not trying to hijack your thread. Just wanted you to know your not alone. It's so frustrating.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Nice try, but I was responding to kfish. See post #41 Got anything else? You too Kitsune


[/QUOTE]
oh wait so we're not helping OP anymore? 😂


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> oh wait so we're not helping OP anymore? 😂


Is this the new forum decorum? If I quote someone, I'm actually referring to the OP?  
That's weak, come on. You thought you got me good.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Is this the new forum decorum? If I quote someone, I'm actually referring to the OP?
> That's weak, come on. You thought you got me good.


dangit 😝 I'll get you next time!!! 🤓

Seriously tho, do we have any idea why this is happening? To both of them?


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Asteroid said:


> Nice try, but I was responding to kfish. See post #41 Got anything else? You too Kitsune


My excuse is .... *runs*


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

LidijaPN said:


> dangit 😝 I'll get you next time!!! 🤓
> 
> Seriously tho, do we have any idea why this is happening? To both of them?


Oh, what do i know 🤪


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

kfish said:


> I feel your pain DomDom. I have a brown thumb when it comes to aquariums. My parameters are the same as yours except my KH an GH are a little lower. I've been trying for over a decade to get plants to grow. They always look like yours or much worse. If I increase the light intensity or duration, the plants don't do any better, but the algae likes it. If I decrease the lights, the plants still do poorly, but the algae goes away. I source my plants from well known suppliers and they are always robust and healthy until I put them in my tanks. I've tried plants that have been grown submerged, emersed, and lab grown. Makes no difference. I've stoppped trying stem plants because they don't last 2 weeks. Java fern and Anubius disintergrate. Water lilly just grows tiny leaves that lie on the substrate. Cryps sometime survive, but barely grow. I have a sword plant that only grows 4" tall and rarely puts out new leaves. In the past year I have started growing emersed plants out of this tank and they are robust and healthy, so at least I know the water is good for plants. I've asked on various planted tank forums, but nothing has helped. I had a guy at my house that has several beuatiful successful planted tanks. He had nothing to add that has not already been tried. In the end he just said, keep trying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, I hope we will get there, sooner or later!  I remember my first tanks, small, overstocked, but easy plants like vals were growing super fast, now when I'm trying to do everything right, nothing is ever growing. 



rnicolaidis said:


> Hello, DomDom!
> 
> I believe it is a lack of CO2, as many have answered before.
> Here are my 2 cents on how to improve the situation in a "low tech" tank:
> ...


Thanks for detailed tips! I have "siesta" in a photoperiod, but it's only 1 hour, I will try lowering my KH and temp even more.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

DomDom said:


> Haha, I hope we will get there, sooner or later!  I remember my first tanks, small, overstocked, but easy plants like vals were growing super fast, now when I'm trying to do everything right, nothing is ever growing.


That's the problem with "serious" plant care and trying to achieve the maximum. If only 1 factor is not correct, it can stall your whole system.
In my newest tank, I didn't notice the phosphate being sucked away by the soil. Plants stalled and now everything is full of algae.


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

And after some time it gets worse. I just wanna throw everything to garbage bin and be done with it.  After trimming hygrophila new leafs grows, but instantly becomes curly.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Did you reduce the light, as advised?
This looks like K or Ca deficiency to me...but with your water values, there shouldn't be any.

Can you figure out the Calcium and Magnesium values of your tap water? Maybe there is something way off?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> Did you reduce the light, as advised?
> This looks like K or Ca deficiency to me...but with your water values, there shouldn't be any.
> 
> Can you figure out the Calcium and Magnesium values of your tap water? Maybe there is something way off?


I reduced lighting and temperature. At the moment I don't have tests for calcium and magnesium, but I will try to buy them asap.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

Any chance you can google what's in your tap water? That's usually enough as an info


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

That first pic is curly val? It looks pretty decent overall, just a bit of melt? The hygro does look frazzled but I genuinely find that plant to be a pain in low tech, though by all rationale it shouldn’t be. 

I would recommend picking up a bunch of cheap cuttings from someone local who is trimming their tank and just trying random stems to see who will like your water.


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> Any chance you can google what's in your tap water? That's usually enough as an info


Arsen 1.28 µg/l
Chrome 3.59 mg/l
Fluoride 0.18 mg/l
Nitrate 2,9 - 6,2 mg/l
Nitrite 0,01 mg/l
Lead <1,63 µg/l
Copper <0,098 mg/l
Selenium <1,89 µg/l
Mercury <0,17 µg/l
Nickel 2,7 µg/l
Cadmium <0,061 µg/l
Manganese 28 µg/l
Chloride 28,1 - 28,8 mg/l
Sulfate 33,2 - 40,0 mg/l
Ammonia <0,01 mg/l

Is this enough? Should be my tap water if the info is correct.

LidijaPN,

I don't even want to try that.. This is not my first tank with that problem, plants not growing no matter what. Wasted so much money on substrates, fertilizers, lights and so on. I always hoped every time will be different story.  But I lost patience and finally created account on this forum.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

It's missing the Calcium and magnesium values unfortunately. 

What I'm thinking and what fits the "tried everything" ... if the Ca:Mg ratio is off the charts, it might lead to the plants not being able to process Ca, Mg and K effectively ... 
Usually the optimum is between 4:1 and 3:1, some say 2:1 ... I've seen tap water having 16:1 or higher.


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> It's missing the Calcium and magnesium values unfortunately.
> 
> What I'm thinking and what fits the "tried everything" ... if the Ca:Mg ratio is off the charts, it might lead to the plants not being able to process Ca, Mg and K effectively ...
> Usually the optimum is between 4:1 and 3:1, some say 2:1 ... I've seen tap water having 16:1 or higher.


Yeah, and those two I can't find anywhere.  So I'm just gonna measure it after I'll buy the tests.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I get you, if you’ve tried a lot and it never works there’s no point.

Would it be feasible to try with RO water? Or a mix of tap and RO? Then you remineralize to your own desired levels.... it is a complication but should be foolproof?

You also say in your first tanks things were growing well... did you move since then? Was it a different water source?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> I get you, if you’ve tried a lot and it never works there’s no point.
> 
> Would it be feasible to try with RO water? Or a mix of tap and RO? Then you remineralize to your own desired levels.... it is a complication but should be foolproof?
> 
> You also say in your first tanks things were growing well... did you move since then? Was it a different water source?


I don't have RO filters, I just buying distilled water bottle and mix 50% to 50% with tap water.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I do the same! So the half-and-half mix is what you’re using now in your tank and things are still struggling? Man, I don’t know..... curious to see that Ca/Mg ratio....


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

So I just tested my ca/mg.. I used salifert brand tests and the all show readings of the charts. For example using calcium test I dont even need to count drops, because water is already blue after a dose of reagent. With magnesium even worse, I dont even need to dose 3rd reagent and the water is dark blue.. What the hell.. Is these values even normal for tap water?

And the tank water is the same, but tank water is already mixed with distiled water. It looks like Im doing something wrong, but everything is done right according the instructions


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

The Salifert tests? Aren't those seawater only? Seawater has about 1350mg/l while freshwater tanks are more in the range 10-20mg/l ... or is there a test outside of Germany I don't know about? Because the Salifert are awesome tests. Can you link to the test?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> The Salifert tests? Aren't those seawater only? Seawater has about 1350mg/l while freshwater tanks are more in the range 10-20mg/l ... or is there a test outside of Germany I don't know about? Because the Salifert are awesome tests. Can you link to the test?


EDIT: I was doing something wrong, my english  I will edit this post in few minutes.

EDIT v2: Calcium 60 ppm, and with magnesium I have same problem, after 2nd reagent it goes dark blue (there is 3 reagents).








Amazon.com : Salifert Calcium (Ca) Test Kit - 50 to 100 Tests : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Salifert Calcium (Ca) Test Kit - 50 to 100 Tests : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com












Amazon.com : Salifert Magnesium (MG) Test Kit : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies


Amazon.com : Salifert Magnesium (MG) Test Kit : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies



www.amazon.com





Shopkeeper told me that they're can be used in both aquariums, because it shows low values too.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

The Ca can be used for an approximation, yes, but the Mg tests lowest value is 30mg/l ... while in fresh water it's more around 10mg/l

However, the value you provided is enough, since Mg can be calculated from GH and Ca.

With Ca of 60ppm and GH of 180ppm, your Mg is about 7mg/l. That means your ratio is about 8.5:1
This is already off the optimum enough, that his might influence your plant growth, besides my recommendation for Mg is to keep it at least 10. We might be on to something here.
I would recommend raising your Mg to 15mg/l (1mg/l = 1ppm), which would be a ratio of 4:1 and should also work with your K, without pushing your GH too much.

Not saying it's definitely the reason your plants don't grow, but it's definitely a possibility!

You can raise your Mg with Epsom Salt (MgSO4.7H2O). 1g in 100l of that stuff raises your Mg by 1ppm.


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

Kitsune said:


> My fresh tanks melt them, after a few weeks they usually work! Except for the recent in-vitro batch ... but I think those got damages in transit.


the reason is because buce are particularly sensitive to ammonia, I am guessing you use aquasoil in startups?

as for op
yes the tank does look a bit Mg deficient.

do your plants look like this with crinkly leaves?


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## DomDom (9 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> The Ca can be used for an approximation, yes, but the Mg tests lowest value is 30mg/l ... while in fresh water it's more around 10mg/l
> 
> However, the value you provided is enough, since Mg can be calculated from GH and Ca.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I'm already off to market, hope to find epsom salt asap.


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

DomDom said:


> Thanks, I'm already off to market, hope to find epsom salt asap.


2g of epsom salt (magnesium sulphate heptahydrate) in 20l water will raise Mg by about 10ppm.


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

plantnoobdude said:


> the reason is because buce are particularly sensitive to ammonia, I am guessing you use aquasoil in startups?


yep, but ammonia free


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

Kitsune said:


> yep, but ammonia free


hmmn odd, buce generally still do not like tank instability. you still will have relatively minor ammonia spikes in tanks with inert substrate, due to plant matter decomposing, bacteria building up. etc


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

yush, that's why I waited 2-3 weeks before planting them, because I know they work better in a not-so-fresh tank ... but even the ones I planted after 6 weeks are still melting. I am hoping they just weren't submersed forms yet, in combination with my tank still being too fresh.

My main battle is the thread algae at the moment anyways... slowly getting better, but still far from there.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Kitsune said:


> yush, that's why I waited 2-3 weeks before planting them, because I know they work better in a not-so-fresh tank ... but even the ones I planted after 6 weeks are still melting. I am hoping they just weren't submersed forms yet, in combination with my tank still being too fresh.
> 
> My main battle is the thread algae at the moment anyways... slowly getting better, but still far from there.


Buce thing is weird. Granted mine weren’t TC but I never lost a single leaf, even the emersed-grown parts. New ones just come in in different color. Maybe they’re going through some big adjustment and will bounce back.


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

Kitsune said:


> My main battle is the thread algae at the moment anyways... slowly getting better, but still far from there.


this stuff?







like kinda slimy, no branching but not super fine algae, and has defined strands.
I have some problems with it but it seems to be on its way out. what is working for me currently, 
1.lower light
2.increase plant mass, floating plants esp.
3. lowered my urea/nh4 dosing focus on potassium/Micro but still keep them low.
4. big water changes reset the collumn


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Buce thing is weird. Granted mine weren’t TC but I never lost a single leaf, even the emersed-grown parts. New ones just come in in different color. Maybe they’re going through some big adjustment and will bounce back.


Yep, Buces are known to do that. Also if you do a bigger change in the tank, even if it's just the fertilizer system, they can throw all their leaves and be upset. They're like the cats of the fish tank world.




plantnoobdude said:


> this stuff?


Nah, the even more slimy kind...like spider webs.
I know where they're from and it was totally my fault.

The soil I have, it's the third time I used it.
I knew it sucks up phosphate like crazy, the first 2 times I had to give it 0.5ppm per day so my plants would still get some.
But this newest batch? no no no no....it was even crazier in draining.
1.2 ppm sucked to zero overnight.

Due to the lack of phosphate, but having 60-65lm/l of light and all other nutrients in masses, my plants stopped growing and the algae did a happy dance.
That in combination with the tank being only 3.5 weeks old then.

For now I'm doing the following:


Switched fertilizing to Estimative Index, but in a lighter version (15ppm N, 0.3ppm P, 10ppm K, those 3 constant, 20ppm CO2 (soon 30), weekly plus daily Fe (half weekly dose of chelated, daily half dose of unchelated)
Dimmed lights to 45lm/l
Reduced (strong) light time by an hour (dim phases are the same, but break is 30 minutes longer and the transfer from dawn to full and full to sunset is 15 minutes later/earlier each.
Spot treatment with H2O2 in the worst algae spots (they're everywhere but in 3-4 spots they get really bushy)
Changed to RO water to get rid of the silicate (and to have cleaner water overall, striving for perfection) because i had a ton of pesky diatom
Weekly water changes of about 75%
Plant mass I already upped ... my tank is becoming a jungle lol


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

Kitsune said:


> Switched fertilizing to Estimative Index, but in a lighter version (15ppm N, 0.3ppm P, 10ppm K, those 3 constant, 20ppm CO2 (soon 30), weekly plus daily Fe (half weekly dose of chelated, daily half dose of unchelated)


well, I am not sure whether you are refering to N or No3, P or Po4. anyway, if you are going to follow ei, I'd suggest you follow EI. with such low po4, you're probably seeing green spot algae aswell.


Kitsune said:


> Changed to RO water to get rid of the silicate (and to have cleaner water overall, striving for perfection) because i had a ton of pesky diatom


I really doubt tap water is the cause of diatoms. this is a new tank, the tank just needs to sort it's self out. if you have some established media you can add that aswell.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

plantnoobdude said:


> 3. lowered my urea/nh4 dosing focus on potassium/Micro but still keep them low.


Is this an experimental tank? Why are you dosing urea/nh4?


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## plantnoobdude (Jun 25, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> Is this an experimental tank? Why are you dosing urea/nh4?


better/ faster growth. mimicking what tropica doses. they dont use nh4no3 for nothing, ADA doesn't soak their soil in ammonia for nothing either.
high N low K moderate micro. 
example of this would be 
2ppm N (8 no3)
0.8 po4
1-2ppm K
0.1 Fe micro


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

No green spot algae, had those when PO4 went out completely ... diatoms vanished 2 days after changing to RO.
SiO2 is _extremely_ high in my tap water. Even if I dillute 1:4 with RO or distilled water, the test maxes out instantly, no wait time required lol

I meant NO3 and PO4


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

plantnoobdude said:


> better/ faster growth. mimicking what tropica doses. they dont use nh4no3 for nothing, ADA doesn't soak their soil in ammonia for nothing either.
> high N low K moderate micro.
> example of this would be
> 2ppm N (8 no3)
> ...


Yes, plants can uptake nh4 better/quicker than no3, but it's not practical to dose for most people. You need a good amount of hungry plant mass to take it in otherwise most will be dealing with algae and/or fish issues. That's the exact reason a tank full of fast growing stems is the least likely to have algae issues. 

ADA AS having ammonia in the soil is completely different than dosing it in the water column. There's a reason you need to do massive water changes with AS initially until it stops leaching. Trying stirring up your AS and see what happens to the water, fish, algae. 

No3 is used by most because it's the best compromise when you take into account the whole system. Not everyone will be equipped to deal with dosing urea/nh4. There is a mountain of evidence that no3 grows incredibly healthy plants without the side effects. I've done tanks with no3 up to 80ppm without any algae or issues, but it only takes a little bit of ammonia to cause algae if you don't have the proper uptake.


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## AwwShucks (Jul 3, 2020)

Another struggling low-techer in the mix, it was also recommended that I add some Mg, but I'm wondering what the ideal ppm is for a low-tech set up.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

AwwShucks said:


> Another struggling low-techer in the mix, it was also recommended that I add some Mg, but I'm wondering what the ideal ppm is for a low-tech set up.


Does anything grow well?


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

AwwShucks said:


> it was also recommended that I add some Mg, but I'm wondering what the ideal ppm is for a low-tech set up.


It's not so much about the Mg value, but about the ratio to Ca. Ca:Mg ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 is perfect, I like to have at least 8ppm of Mg.


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## AwwShucks (Jul 3, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> Does anything grow well?


*Grows well: *tiger lotus, crypts, java fern, anubias nana 'golden' (so far), duckweed

*Grows with some problems:* dwarf sag (some bba and melting), anubias (was suffering from serious GSA which has disappeared since I started adding phosphates, now has some giant holes forming but it isn't quite dead), rotala nanjenshan (ok but probably won't thrive),

*Melts and hasn't come back:* Jungle val, some type of rotala, frogbit (I suspect the water moved too much), red root floaters (again, movement maybe)

*New and melting: *Amazon sword

*Was growing well but suddenly died:* Egeria densa, one batch of java fern, bacopa monneri, bolbitis, pennywort

I suspect my soil has run out of nutrients and even though root tabs worked for a bit I am going to replace/add some UNS to my tank soon, I want to add more to the hardscape anyways



Kitsune said:


> It's not so much about the Mg value, but about the ratio to Ca. Ca:Mg ratio of 2:1 to 4:1 is perfect, I like to have at least 8ppm of Mg.


I'm not sure how much Ca I have. Do you use a specific test?


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## Kitsune (9 mo ago)

I use RO water, so I harden the water myself ... but here in Germany you can find the values for the tap water of your region online. Maybe it's the same in the US?


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## AwwShucks (Jul 3, 2020)

Kitsune said:


> I use RO water, so I harden the water myself ... but here in Germany you can find the values for the tap water of your region online. Maybe it's the same in the US?


I will give that a look, thank you!


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