# 6 AI Primes VS 3 Radions?



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Hey guys I was wondering what you think would be better 6 AI primes or 2-3 Radions. The Radions are actually cheaper over all, by like 50 dollars. 

The lights are for a chameleon enclosure, and there will be ~50 inches from the light to the dirt, so I really want the deepest highest PAR possible. 

The cage is 46 wide, 22 deep, and 45 tall (To screen, lights will be a few inches above). Thanks in advance.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Can't see any working well at that (50") distance..

58" spread even w/ 60 degree lenses...

Better off w/ a bank of floods (arch. floods are not what most think of as floods) or spots...

Need something w/ around 30 degree (or less) beam angle..

If you are intent on spending a big chunk of change suggest contacting Orphek..
https://orphek.com/atlantik-v4-planted-freshwater-aquariums-led-light/

Or a bunch of these:
https://www.1000bulbs.com/product/114189/LED-01013.html

This has a nice graphic on cone size:
https://a89b8e4143ca50438f09-7c1706...660/original/soraa-01013-specs.pdf?1518454723

LAST of a dying breed.. 5000K violet base (VIVID) SORRA floods (4000k is now tops)

Only 4 left.. 
https://www.amazon.com/Bulbrite-SP3...ocphy=9019191&hvtargid=pla-403283762869&psc=1
hurry hurry hurry.. (sorry just kidding)

Yea I know only 74W total..
4000 Lumens approx and 50L/w lowish efficiency..

Napkin calcs gives you 7PAR per bulb @ 6ft

35PAR @ 3ft...

1/4 the cost ... 
https://www.earthled.com/collection...immable-wet-outdoor-rated?variant=21563585988


sort of what it takes.. To get 100PAR in your 7sq ft area you need to get all 6700 Lumens to fall there.. not all over the place..

a better approach than I have above would be 2 banks (or more) of narrow angle emitters..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Forgot to ask, is the chameleon housing all glass?

http://www.neherpetoculture.com/vivariumlighting101



> Enclosures 36in-48in Tall - Very Difficult
> Suitable Choices: Jungle Dawn Spotlight LEDs | Jungle Hobbies LEDs | Value Grow Spotlight LEDs
> Enclosures 3-4ft tall are considered extremely difficult to illuminate, and usually require the use of either a series of LED Spotlights, or a mega-powered LED unit like the Jungle Hobbies models. As things approach 48in tall, the light source needs to become exponentially more powerful than something you'd find on a 24-30in tall enclosure. For enclosures of this size, lighting becomes a very significant portion of a vivarium's cost just because it will need to overcome so much distance between the top & bottom of the enclosure.
> 
> ...


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Can't see any working well at that (50") distance..
> 
> 58" spread even w/ 60 degree lenses...
> 
> ...


Ya Can't go with floods, this is a Naturalistic Viv, which means I need full control of the lights, and storms as when the lights storm there is actually water to said storm. 

The walls are not glass, the walls are Bioactive (great stuff, Cork bark background back and aide, with Cocofiber on great stuff and Living Sphag on both), and most of the highest light needing plants will be on the walls not in the dirt. 

So you don't think that 3 Radions and 2 T5HOs will give me 100 par at the dirt?

They are about the same par as the Jungle Dawn's at the same heights. (A tad less) 

Also Everything I have seen on the Radions, is people with 24ts having them mounted 9 over the cage, and using them at 60% or less.

So this calc shows 124par at 44inches, for the XR30 Gen 3 at 100% the Gen 4 is supposedly 20% brighter from what I was told. I don't know what kind of effect water has on Par but I think this is also supposed to be through water? 

Now I'm using XR15s, so a little over half this each, however it I used 4 instead of 3, numbers should be similar. This is also ignoring the T5HOs in the front and back of the LEDs (I have to have 1, for UVB, and the ballast to dim is a double, so I figured I'd put a second for a grow light)

Also 6700 lumens for the lights you listed? No lol, I need 20k at cage top, there is going to be vandas on the walls. 10k from T5s, and 10k from LEDs, the Radions will give me 20k by themselves so I am actually at 30. 

The Radions are 90ws Each.

This guy's testing is show 393par at 32 inches from the light, going through 24 inches of water (again I'm not sure if that matters or not). https://youtu.be/UvgOue492Rw


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well the build is out of my wheeelhouse. Was more worried about wasted light ouside the enviro.
W/ glass at least you get a lot of bounce back in....

Of course tilting is an option..

Ever considering building your own?
Pretty easy and relatively cost effective..
And you have control..

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...dPuAId%2b/BpH315LaU%2b1sRmEYkPLKVXq2KpTw74g==

$18 per 32W @36V and approx 2500 lumens each Using 750mA LDD-h drivers (2 per chip) and a cheapish controller (or not up to $100)
approx $50 per head unit.. give or take $10

Some good reflectors and some hunks of aluminum..

Best thing is if the angle is bad the lens swap is like $10 each chip..

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/245/Luminus Devices-7-27-2017CTM_Prelim-1177347.pdf

Par losses going through water vs free air is debatable.
It should mostly be higher (PAR) (refraction/reflection events) in water vs. but w/ the loss of some spectrum at depth (red being attenuated) is can be a wash or less.
In free air there is nothing really stopping its trajectory..

first you mentioned the t5's.. 


> and there will be ~50 inches from the light to the dirt,


and you want to hit a 22" "square...w/ max intensity..

Dictates a 30 degree-ish lens. Sure throw as much light as you need for that cone but you will be losing a lot of watts ($'s) in unnecessary areas .....

5 COB's total 3 w/ 30 degree around 2 w/ 60 degree lenses..

Could step down to the 20W/ch chips..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Well the build is out of my wheeelhouse. Was more worried about wasted light ouside the enviro.
> W/ glass at least you get a lot of bounce back in....
> 
> Of course tilting is an option..
> ...


Well we shouldn't have much wasted light, as like I said 3 sides are to be covered in plants/moss, the door/window side is glass yes. 

The big issue I have with using too focused of spots is I only have a 5-6 inch center strip area to accommodate lights. And then with a 30 degree beam, the walls won't get enough light and the walls are where all the highest lights plants are. 

In the bottom soil, there will be trees planted (Madgascar dragon trees) whose leaves are very high, and some lower light needing ground cover. Polka dot plants, chameleon plants, all other plants, all the orchids all the CPs, the vines, the ferns, will all ride the walls. Most are ephytitic (don't think I spelled that right haha) the few that are not, will be in cork bark faux trees with carved holes as planters. 

I will check out those controllable LEDs. However how do I fully control them? A cheap controller isn't going to work, they have to be fully controllable by an Apex, and that includes spectrum. 

Like I said, I'm trying to build a Naturalistic Vivarium, that includes warm mornings and cool evenings, and random storms that set off event chains that affect multiple systems. So it has to go through the Apex. 

As far as beam angle, that's again my concern. Anyway, another note on that, the Nerherp suggestion the JDs are a 60° spread, at 40ws, only 6400k (which is more yellow than red) and not Dimmable, which is why I shyed away, however the Radions are 80° angle, and double the wattage 😛. So I thought what I would love in beam angle, I'd gain back by using double the wattage. And enough to turn 4 (due to beam angle) into 3.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Going through APEX is just more expensive.. Need 0-10V drivers which are usually "all in one" so a power supply built in (redundant) .

Good thing is you can get high DC voltage ones so you could string a few channels..

Say 3 warm whites per driver..100V dc 500mA..

..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Example of an APEX controllable driver.
HLG-240H-C700B 
Borderline useable min voltage is close to voltage of 5 chips in series..
May need size up w/ AB (new designation I'm not sure of)
HLG-240H-C1050AB (?)
USED to be that you had to pick between dimming and current adj.. NOT sure that is the case anymore.. spec sheet implies not..but can't
find a/ A/B driver for sale or AB ect..
IF I understand this correctly .. current adj 525-1050mA via pot inside driver

Run all ww off one and all cw off another 1-10V dimming (w/ option of pt or 10V PWM)
Would need to be hooked to an APEX power bar to shut off..

Obviously (I guess) one would need programming for the Apex..?

Walk through:
https://reefs.com/2012/12/13/diy-guidedimming-diy-led-lights-with-neptune-systems-apex-controller/

NOTE: don't "recoomend" such HV DC drivers but they exist and are quite uesable..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Going through APEX is just more expensive.. Need 0-10V drivers which are usually "all in one" so a power supply built in (redundant) .
> 
> Good thing is you can get high DC voltage ones so you could string a few channels..
> 
> ...


So just a second VDM module? I already need one for the Flo's, then I guess I'd need another for the LEDs. 

So hook each color to a channel in the VDM. So I can Dim each color. Of course then I would also need a Spectrum meter, to see what spectrums I am working with (the Radions will tell me) 

So how much would a 300w DIY light cost me total on estimate? I feel like by the time all is said and done, this will cost more than Radions lol.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Jeez the coding will get crazier for sure lol. 6 profiles per color, x 5 colors. I think that may even be more than Apex allows.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Depends, you have 4 channels.. 
LED's would take 2 
One for 6500k another for 2700k..
Eyes will tell you which is which.. don't stare at them.. 
Start ramp at 2700k add 6500k reverse...
FULL power daylight is like 4600K....roughly 2700+6500/2

If you want to add colors.. yea gets much more complicated..

Then again nothing natural about blue for moonlight or blood red sunrises or red lightning..

Bear in mind I have little familiarity w/ APEX..

Power bar I was referring to was to shut the drivers off from the line voltage..
These type of drivers tend to get wonky w/ voltages to the PWM of less than 1V and may flash at the end (cutting power to driver), or not turn off 100%.. Something you want to prevent


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Depends, you have 4 channels..
> LED's would take 2
> One for 6500k another for 2700k..
> Eyes will tell you which is which.. don't stare at them.. <a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/smilie/icon_smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>
> ...


It's not about having blood red sunrises lol, it's about having warmer sunrises and cooler sunsets. 

6500k LEDs are not 6500k, they are a faux 6500k with an absurd amount of yellow in them, and a serious lack of red and blue. That's why high end grow lights use red and blue. You cannot get proper spectrums with just a white LED. LEDs don't work that way. 

I know the age ole mixing bulbs, but that was a compromise (the sun is 5800k btw in full shine) a compromise that thanks to LEDs we don't have to make. I don't want to overwattage and over PAR to get realistic PUR, by bumping worthless spectrums like the insane amounts of yellow in your example. That's wasted wattage and wasted par. 

I would rather have the correct spectrums at the correct time of day. Which the Radions give me out of the box (loosely, likely not perfect), and the led will require a meter and time to do. 

There is no reason to go with LEDs to just backtrack to low tech comprimises. Just my opinion. 

I also do not want 4600k throughout the day, aside from that being an incorrect spectrum, spectrum changes throughout the day, and throughout the year. I want to recreate this, down to the seasons which will also be recreated by system.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

No, not high CRI 6500k..

nothing is backtracking really..

My recently acquired 6500K Sunplus diodes have a more "orange" phosphor pack then the 4000k ones..
Pretty balanced..
https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...SunPlus+20+Line+at+350mA,+Tj=85°C?format=750w

This was all just suggestions, no more no less..

spectrum is modifiable from 2700K to 6500k...









Just the 6500k channel and 5 pucks is 100 to 200W depending on the chip of targeted light..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> No, not high CRI 6500k..
> 
> nothing is backtracking really..
> 
> ...



Hey, okay so doing a little more research I do see what you are saying now, and see the real full spectrum leds. I though we were still in the dark ages of blue leds with green covers lol. 

You already know my par and spread situation.

So lets say, I went with some DIYs, 2 fixtures (have to split for the heat lamp in the center) and just did half CW, and Half WW, I should be able to get more natural sunrise/sunset with that, and simulate clouds I think. I can also limit to one VDM, and dropping to 1 central heat bulb will drop my PM1 needs to 0, so that saves me 200 already lol, Pays for a seneye (if they support air, which i asked them, no reply yet) 

So then, the T slot fixtures? Something like this maybe? https://reefledlights.com/shop/deluxe-250-phoenix-led-kit-no-heatsink/, or should I go Cobs? Obviously not going with that kit, its got a bunch of colors. Just was using it as a stepping off point.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blink and something new comes around..

Est K is 2750.. high CRI @ 2856 standard

BTW: It's orangy not yellow..
https://www.rapidled.com/chilled-logic-100w-puck/


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData 100flowercob.txt [110°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


Suggest more on the line of anodized pucks..
https://www.rapidled.com/140mm-pin-heatsink/

another:
12" aren't anodized unfortunately
https://www.rapidled.com/6-x-12-premium-heat-sink-and-enclosure/

Just because of the amount of light you need COB's ar better and frankly, a bit more economical


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Blink and something new comes around..
> 
> Est K is 2750.. high CRI @ 2856 standard
> 
> ...


Those say they are anodized? that 12 inch you linked? Thats a little big though, as if going cobs would I need to go 4 COBs? 2 CW and 2 WW. I do want the ability to change to warmer and cooler spectrum's.

Whats the adjustable pucks you mentioned? Link to those? I would like to go a little higher than 6500k, but will check it out. I want to mimic the color of a rainstorm, that dark greyish blue, as best as I can, during my storms.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Err, ignore that the black should be black anodized.. my bad..
Point is if you don't add fans black is better for heat transfer..

Well lets assume 4 lights for now:
My personal choice would be 2 of these:
https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c/CTM-22-6527-90-36-TW01/1214-1553-ND/8324689
and 2 of these
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetai...UOVeaP/N0jAwfvp0Cr143mtq8kV3SVpNPSzurGdcne7XY
$100 worth of COB's
You are going to want more high k than low k

I'd consider adding a cheap "blue" bar for color accent.. 
Like Orphek w/ a dimmable driver..
That dark grayish blue is mostly "up"..  not down..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Err, ignore the black should be black anodized.. my bad..
> 
> Well lets assume 4 lights for now:
> My personal choice would be 2 of these:
> ...


Will those work on the Black rectangle fixture that you linked? I assume yes? 

I don't really have space for a "Bar" if a bar is what I think you mean, 

However cant I just add blue LEDs to the fixtures for accent? Like the small ones, and place them with the COBs? 

Do you think 4 of those (how many watts are they each?) Would be sufficient Par for the plants we discussed?

Btw sorry for all my dumb questions and thank you for helping me 🙂.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Will those work on the Black rectangle fixture that you linked? I assume yes?
> 
> I don't really have space for a "Bar" if a bar is what I think you mean,
> 
> ...



FF COB's run at 1200mA is 5000lumens each
1.2 x 36 = 43.2W


Lum devices chips:
6000 lumens per chip
Now this gets tricky because as "I" read it you need to not exceed s certain combined wattage.
So in a sense a 32W 3000L chip.


> Note that the maximum current and maximum power per channel
> also serve as guidelines for maximum
> current and maximum power for both channels combined. Luminaire thermal system
> capability and power derating curves on page 6
> ...


PAR is area dependent.. Your lensing (and total area) is more crucial than watts or Lumens..

sooner or later you are just going to have to prototype one.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > Will those work on the Black rectangle fixture that you linked? I assume yes?
> ...


Well ya I would like to stay under a certain wattage. However we are not close to it lol from what you described? 

They are 43ws each, then I want more than 4, 8 would be more what I would be looking at. I'm trying to stay under like 400ws of LED. So 8 of those would be fine with me, with some Blue LEDs for accents.

As for a prototype, will do, it will have to be early next month sometime though, got a lot of irons in the fire with other things ATM. But first or second week next month, I will get that going.

Why those 2 over like CREE CXB3590s I keep reading good things about those Crees? They also go 139ws each. Cheaper on the large scale, which if I like this setup this could turn into large scale, do a whole reptile room with these.

I ask, for A. dont have to buy everything from different sides, and B. I suck at soldering, Id rather not if I can avoid it.

Also another 2 things to note, I can exceed my 400ws ideal for a few hours a day, If its time when other things wont be on, and also will average out. So 500 (400 for LEDs and 100 for the T5s) is 32 a month, per 4ft of cage. I would like to stay around there, as If I go through with a plan to make all cages bioactive, the other room will have 6 more sets of this, which is tad over 200 a month. 

Though, the average is the trick, so if the morning and night they are dimming on, using 200ws for the first hour (for the leds) then 300 for the second, then I could maybe be okay, with moving them up to 500-600 (Just the leds) for a few hours midday. The only other issue, would be popping breakers. Which is not a problem for the other room, but this living room cage it is. I could put it on the kitchen breaker, have to see what appliances there are needing to insure no popping. I know we currently get away with using our microwave, toaster oven and Projector at the same time, The PJ consumes I believe 335ws (270w bulb) Its on the kitchens circuit, and wont be ran same time as the reptiles cage.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Carclo-Technical-Plastics/12684?qs=b7oWBPhlAgQaBHcRJ/N3%2bQ==
19.62mm hole.. 

I'm in and out so last for awhile. don't even know if it fits..
29-33 degrees


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Carclo-Technical-Plastics/12684?qs=b7oWBPhlAgQaBHcRJ/N3%2bQ==
> 19.62mm hole..
> 
> I'm in and out so last for awhile. don't even know if it fits..
> 29-33 degrees


Okay so with the DIY leds, is weather going to work? 

How do I do the cloud cover with with DIY leds?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cloud cover is just software soo need to dig around the Neptune Apex site.
IF you go with more err.. "standard" DIY builds then many controllers come w/ the function..

Keep in mind it's usually "universal" or single channel so you will probably find nobody does "exactly" what you want.

It's not a very "mature" tech really.

Oddly I just turned it on on my Bluetooth mini last month.. has it's moments..

Example:


> I have storm and cloud settings on my Reef Angel controller with a pair of multi-channel LED chips. The reason I say more than just aesthetics is because you can control when they come on randomly, time of day, number of times per day, and of course intensity. To include duration and number of strikes.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cloud cover is just software soo need to dig around the Neptune Apex site.
> IF you go with more err.. "standard" DIY builds then many controllers come w/ the function..
> 
> Keep in mind it's usually "universal" or single channel so you will probably find nobody does "exactly" what you want.
> ...


Ya you can do all that quote with Apex as well. 

I know that the weather affects work with Kessils, but IDK if the spectrum changes matter or not? 

As they say to set the weather on both the spectrum and dimming controls for the kessil. 



Anyway, okay back to DIY. I prefer the Crees, the ones you linked that are WW/CW, get a bad rap on the net from what I was seeing. And the Crees, although priced highly are good (the others you linked are good reviewed and suggested over Crees, due to almost as good and cheaper. I don't mind paying a little more, and those don't come in 6500k, so I'll go with Crees. 

So now 1 more question. The last I promise lol. 


Can I go with 4 LEDs on that 6x20 heatsink? They sell a kit, that's 3 with the sink, so I was thinking of getting 2 of those, 1 in 2700, and 1 in 6500, both with the 225w ballasts, then buying 1 extra LED of each color. 

Then doing 2 of each per fixture, with each on a 225 ballast, so running them at 56ish watts each, as I am reading that's better, then running 1 of each at a 112. 

Is that worth doing? For me it was less the wattage, and more of just having a more even spread. But if you think running them at 100w each is better for par, I'll go with that. 

I was also thinking about running 3, but I felt that would unbalance the light, as I have 6500k T5s too (at least I think they are supposed to be 6500k, IDK, they are UVB bulbs and they don't tell you much past full spectrum. 

Let me know what you think, please and thank you. 

Oh and I may still add some blues for the cloudy affect but that is an easy add from what I am seeing.

If I do the 4, I would be more okay with tighter cones, they offer 2 for the Crees. A 45, and a 90. I think a 45 would hit the front and back right? If it's about 7 inches from the top of the back, to the light?

Edit: okay mathed out the beams. And nope 😞, I could really on my T5s and some of the LEDs light to increase high up par, but not that deeply.

So I guess the best idea is this.

90° >>><<< 45° >>><<< 45° >>><<< 90°

That way the 90s can take care of the sides and back, after 12 inches (from the lights, so like 6or 7 from the screen), above that the T5s come in to play, then half way down, the 45s raise the bottoms par. I guess that is the best mix of working I can achieve. And like you said, after that, it's a fiddle with it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I prefer the Crees


I'm sorry................



> the ones you linked that are WW/CW, get a bad rap on the net from what I was seeing.


Show me..

45 degree cone spreads 2" diameter 1 inch down..(1" radius/inch down)
@ 1ft spreads 2 feet in diameter.. ect
At 2 feet your light cone is 4ft in diameter..2ft radius..


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Apex can do as many channels as you want for lighting. You just add more VDMs.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> I'm sorry................
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wait whats wrong with the Crees? 

Yep I will look for the threads again they were on a site called roolitup, the first one was when they released and you could get a free sample and people said that was funny you couldn't pay them to take them, and the other was a guy questioning them, and people said dont bother and get the other ones you linked (the CXMs). In hindsight no one really said why they were bad lol, just that they were bad? 

That said, now that I said the forum name back to myself lol, maybe they dont want the CW at all, and thats why they are suggesting to use the CXMs.


Hmm 2ft radius at 2 ft deep? IDK I found a light beam calculator, and that said the math is Beam x .018 x Distance = Radius. This calc here, is also strongly disagreeing with you, according to it, a 45 degree beam at a 2ft depth will give 1.81ft beam, so that is what I was basing from, thats not the full 2ft, its a 2ft radius at 2.5ft, and with the actual beam angle (43 I think it was) we only see 3ft at 4ft depth. So my layering still apply's. the

Also, I double checked this, with another calculator, here which reads slightly lower than the other (1.62 vs 1.66 at 2ft), however still neither are anywhere near what you said. Also the math trick I said, is the same as he second calc, at 1.62 for 2 ft on a 45.


So lets say, I went with 1 40-45, and 2 90s, per fixture. Would I hen be better to just go with 6x CTM-22s? I would still have more 6500k via the T5s, plus I could just dim out the 2700k more than the 6500ks. 

I still need solderless connectors and 40-45 degree reflectors for the CTM 22s. Those CTM22s also state in there datasheet there maximum wattage per is 45, thats combined for both channels, thats a third of the wattage a cree can do. They are also by default are 45 degree, which isnt going to work for me. I love the tunable, but that light is not looking correct for my needs, I can go with 4 I guess and be fine, however how do I diffuse that into a 90 from a 40 degree max beam angle that datasheet is stating? 





gus6464 said:


> Apex can do as many channels as you want for lighting. You just add more VDMs.


Only superficially, the Apex has limits, each channel requires a profile the Profile limit for an Apex JR, is 20, and I need those profiles for other things as well. the apex also has module limits, the limit for a Jr is 7. the apex can support as many channels you want as long as you stay in the scopes of what it allows.

The most lighting channels you could have on a JR, is 20 due to profiles, which I guess you can ask and sometimes they do up the profiles for people, however then you are still limited by modules, in the case of a JR, that will put you at 24 as the power bar is also a module, and you can do nothing but control lighting then.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Don't find many people with the Jr anymore so forgot about that one. Regular Apex is 240 so basically all a person will ever need.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

finding a 6500k CREE or Vero w/ good color rendering (high CRI) is prac. impossible..
5600K is about their quality tops..

If I was growing pot I'd go CREE/Vero. If I'm lighting the Mona Lisa.. I'll go somewhere else..
https://www.rollitup.org/t/luminus-cxm-32-gen3-the-next-big-thing.928555/page-2
And they rarely use above 4000K


Many CREE have poor off axis color as well..
Kind of like CREE is brute force... Luxeon/Luminous Finesse..

I was pretty hyped about the Decor line, till I found you really can't easily get "the best" (pers. opinion) chips..

Not ashamed to admit some personal bias here... 

Now zero soldering.. that is a bit more of a problem..but you only need 2 per COB (or 4 for dual COBs..)
And pretty much that's it..

BTW keep in mind that K temps add up a bit (though it's a bit trickier than that)
Blue chips help here but say you want a base daylight color of 5600K and sunset /rise of 3000k but have 2 equal COB's of each.
3000k needs to be off or dimmed considerably, costing power..
AT equal power and on full (3000+ 5600/2 = 4300K)

Good thing is using pure blue small emitters you can "push" K up w/ little difficulty..
One calc shows you can get to 10000K (from 6500k )even against a big 30W COB w/ only 4W

Another COB to check out is the Luxeon "crisp white" 3000K but w/ added violet diodes..
Never used it but others have pared it w/ the 'fresh fish" like COB's w/ apparent good success..


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> Don't find many people with the Jr anymore so forgot about that one. Regular Apex is 240 so basically all a person will ever need.


Ya but, in my case, for this single enclosure, a JR is all I would ever need. 

The Apex normal is great if you are going to use everything that comes with it. This is a terrarium, so 90% of the stuff which comes with the Apex won't be used, so the almost triple the price of a junior isn't worth it to me. 

Apex Classic is 600 (on sale right now for 550), the junior is 240, the EL is 500, and the new one is 800.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> finding a 6500k CREE or Vero w/ good color rendering (high CRI) is prac. impossible..
> 5600K is about their quality tops..
> 
> If I was growing pot I'd go CREE/Vero. If I'm lighting the Mona Lisa.. I'll go somewhere else..
> ...


Well I mean the CRI trick doesn't work for the Crees? Those luminous you linked both have 80CRI as well, the dual color one only has 95 when both colors are used equally. 

The 6500k one you linked, removes all red on purpose to make meat look better. That is not high CRI. 

Mixing colors is how CRI is increased. 

https://www.mouser.com/applications/lighting-cri/


I do like the Luminous with dual channels. I guess if I have to solder, then so be it. 

But how do I conquer the fact they are by default 40° spots. That's fine for 2 of them, but I still need 2 to be 90s. 

Focusing a 120 into a 90 is one thing but is there a diffusing cap to do the opposite.


As to your blue idea, I was thinking that with red as well. Should I just go full 6500ks, and then use HQ red standalones? Then I can also achieve reds that I can't with WW LEDs. (660 vs the 640 found in the WWs)

Since red light carrys much further, I don't think I'd have much of an issue carrying it lower even with the smaller LEDs. Then I could, just like that link, Increase the CRI, provide blooming reds, and keep effiency.

On the same vein there is these as well, they are interesting. https://www.rapidled.com/aurora-puck-freshwater/

Though they possess a serious lack of information lol.



Also, as for CRI and Cree. Cree does make a high CRI light as well, https://www.digikey.com/product-det...0N0UZ40E1/CXA3590-0000-000N0UZ40E1-ND/4929206

90 minium with 95 typical, 6500k, and the same form factor as the other Crees I linked, they use the same solder less connectors and reflectors, same wattage everything, just the high CRI version as far as I can tell.

That said they are non stocked haha. No one wants to stock them because there effiency is garbage. Just like the other CRI LEDs.



However, especially with the pack if Crees, and all things considered. I still like those luminous dual channels. But how do I turn a 40° into a 90? And what is a relector for each??

Edit: they don't shoot at 40, they shoot at 130, my bad. So I just need a reflector that can do 45 and one that can do 90, and preferably fit inside of that finsied heatsink I linked. 

I also found a solder less connector. But it's in another country can't find it stateside.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> The 6500k one you linked, removes all red on purpose to make meat look better. That is not high CRI.


Fresh fish does not "remove red".. Did I not link to the "fresh fish" (blue curve below).
more of a smoothing of the red and filling the blue/cyan gap.. 
Tecnically all (well most) LED whites start out blue plus phosphors.. so you can't remove what isn't there to begin with.. 








And Lum devices have better CRI than general CREE at every K temp


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> > The 6500k one you linked, removes all red on purpose to make meat look better. That is not high CRI.
> 
> 
> Fresh fish does not "remove red".. Did I not link to the "fresh fish" (blue curve below).
> ...


That's true, and wasn't what I meant. I was very tired lol when writing that, and don't even know what I was trying to say anymore lol, except that. 

Okay, the CTM is the WW/CW one correct? What does that one have to do with Fresh fish? 

Their Freshfoods one the second one you linked, Doesn't have a CRI of 90, or even 80, as a matter of fact they won't even say what the CRI is. They do say that each one is purpose built with colors added and removed to make a certain retail products look good. They have horrid CRI is what I'm gathering from that, because they are trying to enhance a certain color, or couple of colors, you don't get that with High CRI. Those LEDs are not high CRI. 



Okay anyway moving on, once again, I am going to use the CTM 22, but I need a reflector lol. 

High CRI or not it's all worthless without optics?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Fresh fish personal correspondence w. Luxeon.. 95CRI. Might be 98, don't feel like digging up the email atm.
Charted it myself and it fits that or better..
Their sunplus 6500k series is close to identical.

You'll have to take my word on this:
* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------


> myData freshfish.csv [115°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ...





> They have horrid CRI


All BUT the fresh fish..

Well red meat shouldn't be too bad @ 2750k (or there abouts) reference standard..
and except for marbled meat prob. as good as any general CREE, considering the low K temp.
Ind. really "focused" on emulating tungsten lights for interiors thus more high CRI in that range than "pure" daylight.


Remember your reference shifts from daylight to incandescent as you drop in K.

high CRI is just a tool (and still being worked on) for emulating daylight (or tungsten at low K's). no more no less.
Optics unless horribly bandwidth absorptive mean nothing really.

The blue line is the black body locus (are sun is a black body radiator) so following on that line means generally color fidelity.

now on a "human centric" note high CRI isn't always perceived as "best" Case in point the RGB LED's currently popular.
CRI is in the 80's but due to bandwidth "pop" are much in favor.
* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------


> myData nuniQ.txt [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ...


you can see the "advantage" slightly of RGB to human perception









And yes by filling in blue/cyan/deep red and possib. violet one can boost any insuffient CRI but deviates from the KISS principal.
and not a right or wrong, but a philosophy..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Fresh fish personal correspondence w. Luxeon.. 95CRI. Might be 98, don't feel like digging up the email atm.
> Charted it myself and it fits that or better..
> Their sunplus 6500k series is close to identical.
> 
> ...


I believe you, about the CRI if you said they said that. 


As to the adjusting CRI, will KISS is what Im trying to do, but this isnt doing that lol. 

While those will give me the correct CRI, I have to solder them, and I have to what custom build optics for them? Thats not really keeping it simple lol.

So the last option I guess it brute forcing it? 

So per 20 inch fixture. 

A. 4 of the CTMs, 225 watts on the 6500k channel, 150 on the WW channel, and 30ws of blues. To correct the spectrum? 

No reflectors on the COBs. That should give me serious brightness, and alot of spectrum control right? 

Or you said 2 of each, however I don't see the point of that, I'll still be driver limited. If I go with a 225driver for CW, then it does matter if I use 2 of the fresh fish, or 2 more of the CMTs does it? And let's skip 4, and say 5 to improve effiency. 

So in the fixture have an X with one in the center for better spread as well.

Option B.

4x Fish LEDs, making the X, and 1 Chilllogic puck in the center, blues flanking them all.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

No, no custom built optics.. simple hot melt glue and the right size hole..

Nice thing is, except for minor differences the light engines are relatively "standard"..
Ledil and Carlco have lenses/reflectors that will "fit" most COB's, stated or not.
May be a wee bit more difficult finding holders but that is a minor issue and easily worked around..

On an ironic side note:
https://www.luminus.com/products/cobarrays/perfectwhite-cob


> True whites and extremely high contrast without the “pink” artifacts typical of below the black body locus products


Oddly enough from a visual aquarium standpoint, going below the BB locus is more desirable.. 
See the 6500k curve above, which is slightly above . 

Over-riding the above "limitation"..


> PerfectWhite LEDs enhance fill the cyan gap, filling the critical color gap that most other LEDs miss. PerfectWhite delivers a near-perfect color rendering never before possible with conventional, white LED light sources.


blue/cyan/green separation is important for true plant color rendering..which is not possible w/ the cyan/blue gap in most white LED's or RGB even w/ white fixtures.

"Importance" is personal..
https://www.luminus.com/products/cobarrays


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> No, no custom built optics.. simple hot melt glue and the right size hole..
> 
> Nice thing is, except for minor differences the light engines are relatively "standard"..
> Ledil and Carlco have lenses/reflectors that will "fit" most COB's, stated or not.
> ...


Yep those are neat, they also non stocked and 400 MOQ lol. 


So back to what I can get. Do you think that 4 Fresh Fish, and 1 puck would work? 

Or do you think that 5 CTMs would be better.

Also, this holder fits a CXM 22, so I would assume it would also fit a CTM 22?? 
https://www.rapidled.com/ideal-50-2100an/

That gives me the optics I already shown you before.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.ledil.com/product-card/?product=F16010_ANGELETTE-M2&led=Luminus
https://www.ledil.com/product-card/?product=F14533_ANGELETTE-M&led=Lumileds&model=LUXEON+CoB+1211
Just write to Ledil.

Availability and/or min quant. can be an issue.
Like I can't get the smaller fresh fish COB's ATM, under quant. 100 (last I bothered to check)

funny how some small emitters go from like $3 each to like 20 cents in quant.
Makes one wonder exactly how much they cost to manuf..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Fresh fish personal correspondence w. Luxeon.. 95CRI. Might be 98, don't feel like digging up the email atm.
> Charted it myself and it fits that or better..
> Their sunplus 6500k series is close to identical.
> 
> ...





jeffkrol said:


> https://www.ledil.com/product-card/?product=F16010_ANGELETTE-M2&led=Luminus
> https://www.ledil.com/product-card/?product=F14533_ANGELETTE-M&led=Lumileds&model=LUXEON+CoB+1211
> Just write to Ledil.
> 
> ...


I actually just found these https://www.rapidled.com/ledil-fn15264-stella-hb-www-lens/, I would prefer that form factor, as it will allow me to put a splash cover on the heatsink. Its 100 degree, but so is a radion, and with this being twice the wattage, I think ill be okay par wise.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

didn't see it listed for the Luxeon 1211 COB. 
Doesn't mean "all" that much.

It is listed for the Phillips 1211 "Fortimo" COB..
https://www.alldatasheet.co.kr/datasheet-pdf/pdf_kor/998400/LEDIL/FN15264.html
Should be the same.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> didn't see it listed for the Luxeon 1211 COB.
> Doesn't mean "all" that much.
> 
> It is listed for the Phillips 1211 "Fortimo" COB..
> ...


So that's settled 🙂. 

Now after thinking about it, you said I should go with all 6500k and add blue during the day right? 

Okay so then, I think the better idea would be 6 of the CTM 22s, that way I can push 200ws of CW. 

I don't really understand how those work, can 4 push 200ws? It says keep the wattage under 45 for the entire puck I think, but it's not specific if I can push 1 side to 45 or not?

Edit yes it is, 45ws per channel is max. 

So I need to do maybe 5 total to gain some effiency.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

AFAICT yes you can push one side to 45W , Can't push both sides to 45W at the same time..
There seems to be drivers that will do this natively (keep COB balanced w/ amps) but I've never seen one..


> Now after thinking about it, you said I should go with all 6500k and add blue during the day right?


For cooler daylight, yes.



> and the 4000-18000? Instead of adding blues?


Sorry, you lost me here what COB goes to 18000K?


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Okay, now on to the next step lol. 

Drivers, how do these work? 

Can I use these, and attach them to a power supply? 

I would rather have, this all contained and then a PSU to hook them up. Especially as I have tons of very high end pc power supply as that's is a hobby of mine. 

https://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-ldd-1000h-dimmable-driver/.

Would that run 5 at 40ws each? Or would I need 5 of those to run 5 lights?




jeffkrol said:


> AFAICT yes you can push one side to 45W , Can't push both sides to 45W at the same time..
> There seems to be drivers that will do this natively (keep COB balanced w/ amps) but I've never seen one..
> 
> 
> ...


I misread it it was the CTM but it was 1800 to 4000, I thought it said 4000 to 18000 (well it did say it the second way but it was still 1800)


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Delete please.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Delete please phone is messing up.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Okay, now on to the next step lol.
> 
> Drivers, how do these work?
> 
> ...


Voltage is the key here.. Anyways these are 5V PWM.
to work w/ an Apex 0-10v out requires more "parts"..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > Okay, now on to the next step lol.
> ...


I am well aware it needs more parts. And that's fine, I can do that, and hide all of that in the fixture on either side and have a nice self contained light. Not a ton of huge drivers all over the place. 

Okay, ya I get voltage is key. The voltage is 36vs, the Amperage they come in at 1000-1500, 1500 is too much for 1, though it may be okay for 2, if this works like I think?

Is that going to be 36ws per light then? At 1000ma? So I will need 1 per light, per channel right?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

So first be aware that LDD's require 4 extra volts so ps is 48V w/ amp capacity for all COB's /LEd's
So no small LDD's since they can't take 48V 
And yes one LDD driver per COB and per channel on COB.
1000mA requires 38V.. so 38W..3400 L @ 6500k approx.

There are large AC/DC drivers that could string more COB together but gets a bit pricy compared to one LDD per...

I've been thinking about the max current (watts) per dual COB and balancing them.
Also as to making life easier (or harder depending) so I wanted to see what was available for this concept.
Found this:
Product Center
$68 each

not sure how this exactly functions or is compatible but.. worth spening a few minutes looking..



> Constant current, 2 channels output
> ◆Output current can be set from 150~1500mA
> ◆AUX output 12V,150mA
> ◆Protection: OVP, SCP,OPP, OTP
> ...


Expensive to run one COB..

Just for fun..or others:


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> So first be aware that LDD's require 4 extra volts so ps is 48V w/ amp capacity for all COB's /LEd's
> So no small LDD's since they can't take 48V
> And yes one LDD driver per COB and per channel on COB.
> 1000mA requires 38V.. so 38W..
> ...


Wait a min, first thing it uses 3v not 4. So I would need 39vs to get the 36 output. And on that, where and why are you getting 48vs? The lumileds says to run them at 39 max, My numbers below will base of 36vs. 

Second, 
at 36vs and 750ma thats 27ws to the LED. So thats our cold whites, we can achieve this with 2 CWs side per MeanWell 1500ma, Right? so 3 meanwells needed for 6 LEDs CW channels. Up to 162ws of CW

at 36vs and 500ma thats 18ws to the led, so thats our Warm whites, we can achieve this with 3 WW side per Meanwell 1500ma, Right? so that is 2 more needed for 6 LEDs WW channels. Up to 108ws of WW. 

Though I could put all 6 WWs on 1 meanwell and achieve 9ws WW each, which would give me 54ws. then I could give each CW its own Meanwell, of 1000, and achieve 36w each for a total of 216, but then again I already have 100ws of 6500k and I feel like 400ws of 6500 and 50 of WW is too little lol. 


The LEDs are exactly 45ws each, with both channels maxed. I lose a little wattage if I try to balance the spectrum, however I can get that back with blues, and also if something haywires and all channels go to full power, I am not risking the LEDs, as they are still under 45ws full load. 

(BTW I uped it to 6 for better spread and easier time with the meanwells, plus improved efficiency.)

So now, we add 1 more Meanwell for the blue channels, and were done. That is 6 meanwells total, there is a board that will hold 6 (though it requires soldering Id rather find one that doesn't) it is 2inches by 5.25 inches, so it will fit into the heatsink setup. The other side I can shave off 2 inches for cables and the fans driver, and all is housed internally. I will still need the pwm to 0-10v converter, but I can do that either internally or externally. Then Instead of this huge wire mess and PSUs laying around I can everything in a nice sealed box, with a 3.5mm plug pushing the 3 channels to the apex just like a kessil, and a barrel connector going in for a remote PSU. That is a million times a better option. 

efficient, Clean, simple, I do need to access the cage top quite frequently for maintenance, and dealing in a rats nest of crap is not my ideal situation.



That thing you linked is also nice, however like I said I dont want anything external, except a power cable and headphone cable. these lights will have to be taken down and such frequently. It needs to be a retail style setup, all self contained and easily to deal with, that was one of my biggest hold backs on going DIY.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

48V is just the ps.. Drivers act as buck voltage regulators...
Point was you can't use a 36V ps....for 36V COB's and LDD drivers.
think the differential is really like 3.3V
But anyways from spec sheet:


> Wide input voltage 9-56VDC
> Wide output LED string voltage 2-52VDC


Use the RapidLED Meanwell boards.. Jumpers on the pull down so good for troubleshooting..or no controller set up.

Well ps/drivers/Apex is fairly contained w/ only one 2 wire lead per channel or COB


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> 48V is just the ps.. Drivers act as buck voltage regulators...
> Point was you can't use a 36V ps....for 36V COB's and LDD drivers.
> 
> Use the RapidLED Meanwell boards.. Jumpers on the pull down so good for troubleshooting..or no controller set up.


I seen those, but Id have to have 2. Will likely bite the bullet and do that anyway, so I lose 2.5 inches of either side of the fixture, but not world ending I guess. 

I can use the 36ps and get 33v? I will lose 10ws on CW channel though. Problem is, there is no 36v LDDs, there is 2-30, and 9-46. So I need the PSU to be 39v to achieve 36vs. The 48 is still what I need, but Ill need to adjust it to 39Vs. Or I guess, I could adjust to 42, and get a tad more CW wattage, but lose the all 100% fail safe.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LDD's do the "adjusting" you just need to provide steady voltage 4 volts above COB requirements..
by setting the current w/ th LDD the voltage to the COB is "locked" so to speak..and dropped from the power supply..

Adj. the ps voltage can slightly increase system efficiency, but not the COB's..
finding a 36V ps w/ internal voltage adj. can change it , like finding a 36V that can be internally raised to 39V .. 
Only advantage is slightly cheaper power supply..

Think of the ps as a gas tank.. only needs enough gas.. and fuel pump control the flow..the engine controls the fuel pump so to speak..

2 ways to think about it.
The voltage AT the COB controls the mA 's or the mA's create the voltage differential..
LDD is the governor controlling the mA's by changing the voltage the COB "sees".....has nothing to do w/ the gas tank..
and the LDD has one set point.

\Let's re-sum this..

you are thinking of using 6 dual channel Luminous Devices COBs..
right now that is 210W...1000mA @35V total.. regardless of one or 2 channels on.. 
100/0.. 50/50.. 0/100.. Because afaict that's how they work best..
and what else?

OK one more wrench in the works..
You can use driver differentials.. i.e 750mA on the 6500K channel and say 300mA (we'll go off spec a bit here) on the 3000K channel..
Then you can just start the low K early.. bringing the 6500k on line and boost both channels to 100%. 
Will shift final K a bit but if you add blue, no real issue..

doesn't save money but insures no accidents.. like running both channels at 1000mA concurrently..

want to keep the K up do 4 Lum. Dev and 2 Fresh Fish.
I'd even consider 4 FF 2 LD's since the low k is only "accent" lighting during ramp up/down..


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I believe there is enough adjustment on a meanwell LRS (probably other meanwells also) 36 or 48 to hit 39/51 and still have 36/48 after the drop from the LDDs. My 350/48 went to 56v though I have it set at 52ish.

The data sheet to me indicates that 33v will not even crack 500ma (are we talking about fresh fish here?) and will be a loss of much more than 10watts, however like I said the meanwell LRS 36v psus can almost certainly be adjusted to 39+.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> LDD's do the "adjusting" you just need to provide steady voltage 4 volts above COB requirements..
> by setting the current w/ th LDD the voltage to the COB is "locked" so to speak..and dropped from the power supply..
> 
> Adj. the ps voltage can slightly increase system efficiency, but not the COB's..
> ...


Oh the LDDs have one voltage set point? Where do I find the set point at? 

I was going to ask is there a way to run the cobs at 39vs? Would they be okay with that? and how do I set 39vs at the LDD? Because otherwise I am a the mercy of going over, also I can then run 3 of the CW channels per 1500h, giving me slightly less wattage, but keeps me at the 200w total for the entire fixture. Then I need to find a 400w and much more efficient psu lol.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Oh the LDDs have one voltage set point? Where do I find the set point at?
> 
> I was going to ask is there a way to run the cobs at 39vs? Would they be okay with that? and how do I set 39vs at the LDD? Because otherwise I am a the mercy of going over, also I can then run 3 of the CW channels per 1500h, giving me slightly less wattage, but keeps me at the 200w total for the entire fixture. Then I need to find a 400w and much more efficient psu lol.



LDD has a flexible voltage output based on mA set point.. but it can't exceed the ps voltage- 4V.

You are not quite getting the picture..


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Cyberlocc said:


> Oh the LDDs have one voltage set point? Where do I find the set point at?
> 
> I was going to ask is there a way to run the cobs at 39vs? Would they be okay with that? and how do I set 39vs at the LDD? Because otherwise I am a the mercy of going over, also I can then run 3 of the CW channels per 1500h, giving me slightly less wattage, but keeps me at the 200w total for the entire fixture. Then I need to find a 400w and much more efficient psu lol.


If the cobs receive an actual 39 vs they are getting like 2000+ ma, if they are running at 33v they are getting like < 500 ma, period. The LDD needs enough headroom to hit the required voltage to deliver the stated current, it will change up to the max (36v or whatever) to deliver the stated current and no more. Obviously if it can only deliver 33v it can never deliver 1000ma (well it can just to a different circuit that can hit 1000ma @ 33v or less.)


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> If the cobs receive an actual 39 vs they are getting like 2000+ ma, if they are running at 33v they are getting like < 500 ma, period. The LDD needs enough headroom to hit the required voltage to deliver the stated current, it will change up to the max (36v or whatever) to deliver the stated current and no more. Obviously if it can only deliver 33v it can never deliver 1000ma (well it can just to a different circuit that can hit 1000ma @ 33v or less.)



Okay so then, say run 3 of the COBs off of 1 1500ma Meanwell, and dont adjust he voltage on the PSU (so 48 -4, 44vs to the driver) how much Voltage will each cob receive? 

Also, I reached out to rapid about there driver panel mount. Whether no panel will work or just that one IDK, but they said theres is not going to fit in there, so I need a different way to mount the Drivers.

Is there some kind of pins that will slide over like the PC 2 prong connectors so I dont have to solder? and then can just mount the drivers on their sides with glue or something?

Also, I am changing it up to ease use and give me better reds, I think I want to go with 4 of the "Fish LEDs" and 1 of that Chilllogic puck. I am 90% sure that the Solderless connectors for the CXM will work on the fish LED, as the dimensions are the same.


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

While there are 3 in parallel I suspect it will be like 33-34v range, each receiving 500ma, if 2 then whatever v delivers roughly 750 ma each, and 1 around 36-7v (maybe higher if poor voltage bin parts) or whatever V delivers 1500ma to that cob. If it delivers a full 44v that's going to be WAY over 1500ma.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well, not elegant but you can get wired drivers and sets of barrel jacks, to avoid soldering..
LDD-HW.



> 3 of the COBs off of 1 1500ma Meanwell


doesn't work that way.. 3 cobs in series requires 35x 3= 105V 
3 cobs in parallel will divide current so each sees 500mA each..now sort of possible but if one goes "open" then 2 cobs split the 1500mA
or 2 open then one gets 1500mA



> Is there some kind of pins that will slide over like the PC 2 prong connectors


yes.

As to soldering to the LED COB's, just find an electronics guy to add leads for you..Only takes seconds, shouldn't cost much..

AFAICT,can't use LDD-h's bigger than 100mA for the chille....
Which is an issue.. They do make 1500mA ones but voltage out is low-ish.. Let's just say iffy...
Since there are only 4 660nm diodes on that board, recommend just sticking a channel of photo reds (4 3W diodes)
and sticking to "my" orig. plan..


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> While there are 3 in parallel I suspect it will be like 33-34v range, each receiving 500ma, if 2 then whatever v delivers roughly 750 ma each, and 1 around 36-7v (maybe higher if poor voltage bin parts) or whatever V delivers 1500ma to that cob. If it delivers a full 44v that's going to be WAY over 1500ma.



Oh okay, so I need to actually use 1 Driver per COB, thats fine though, I can do that, since I dropped to 5 total leds and 5 total cobs.



jeffkrol said:


> doesn't work that way.. 3 cobs in series requires 35x 3= 105V
> 3 cobs in parallel will divide current so each sees 500mA each..now sort of possible but if one goes "open" then 2 cobs split the 1500mA
> or 2 open then one gets 1500mA
> yes.


Yep caught on to that, thats okay with the new idea, the old way wouldn't be doable like that though wayyy to many drivers. 




Well, not elegant but you can get wired drivers and sets of barrel jacks, to avoid soldering..
LDD-HW.




jeffkrol said:


> As to soldering to the LED COB's, just find an electronics guy to add leads for you..Only takes seconds, shouldn't cost much..


Ya well that would be fine this time, but I am considering adding this lights to all my cages over time if I like them. Doing that once, is fine, doing it 14 more times? Ya that aint going to fly. On top of that, I live in a very small town, I am pretty much the only electronics guy around lol, I know how to solder, I am not great at it, and I utterly hate doing it. plug and play is better, especially if something goes wrong, and with 16 of the proposed lights deployed, stuff is going to happen and stuff is going to break. 



jeffkrol said:


> As to soldering to the LED COB's, just find an electronics guy to add leads for you..Only takes seconds, shouldn't cost much..


Yep, well no place to put those 3 drivers really and hide them well. Then we go back to rack of 14 cages, thats 42 drivers laying around..... Ya thats not going to happen. I will pay the radion price, long before I deal with that mess of wires.


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Cyberlocc said:


> Oh okay, so I need to actually use 1 Driver per COB, thats fine though, I can do that, since I dropped to 5 total leds and 5 total cobs.


That's not really what I'm saying, you can do 3 in parallel on a 1500h if you want to. In series though it would require a lot more voltage.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> That's not really what I'm saying, you can do 3 in parallel on a 1500h if you want to. In series though it would require a lot more voltage.



I know what your saying, I also know that if something goes wrong with an LED with them in parallel, it can cause a major issue very very quickly. I am not wiring anything in parallel.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Well, not elegant but you can get wired drivers and sets of barrel jacks, to avoid soldering..
> LDD-HW.
> 
> 
> ...


I cant stick with your original plan, As it requires more Drivers that I have no room to mount, I am not wiring nothing in parallel. I have done that before, and a strip failed, and the other caught on fire, and almost burned my house down. 

I am not wiring anything in parallel.

On top of that, adding 4 reds, means another VDM per cage, thats 2 per cage, thats too many, I mean I guess I could run the Flos with 6500k channel of the LEDs (though 1 is uvb, so kind of needs different control).


They make 1500mas in every voltage they make the others in? There is different ending letters, I was using all 1500s in the last idea. https://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-ldd-1500h-dimmable-driver/ Thats 36x1.5, which gives me 54 watts, same output as the WW was before, just a different way taking way less drivers, and giving me 660nms. If that doesnt work, well, then I can just run a CXM or 2 or something, running 6 LEDs that need 2 drivers each is way too many drivers. 

Also not sure if I mentioned it, I dont see it anymore, but I need to figure out a way to mount the drivers other than that board as well, as that doesn't fit in the enclosure.


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I think you had devices that couldn't handle the max current and it would be okay in this case but if it scares you don't do it then. Yes if devices fail one cob could have to do the entire 1500 MA but The 1500 MA is below the max rating of any single cob.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> I think you had devices that couldn't handle the max current and it would be okay in this case but i, if it wwecares you don't do it then. Yes if devices fail one cob could have to do the entire 1500 MA but The 1500 MA is below the max rating of any single cob.


Its not though, the cobs we were discussing have a max current of 1.1amps at 39vs, if it were a cob that could handle the wattage, I wouldn't be as worried. 

And you are correct, 1 strip in the middle died, and that flooded all the power into the first strip, which then caught on fire.


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I guess I missed where you selected your cobs and was talking about the fresh fish cobs.

I see the big ctm cobs? I stand by what I said before except 39v is around 1500ma instead of 2000 :/


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> I guess I missed where you selected your cobs and was talking about the fresh fish cobs.



Well I switched to the Fresh Fish cobs, but ya it was these, https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c/CTM-22-6527-90-36-TW01/1214-1553-ND/8324689




Also: I got a reply about the Driver housing mount. they said if I cut off the driver holder, then it will work. Might as well just go with the Cora flux one at that point. Why they wouldn't design that to fit inside of the heatsink, I have no clue lol. Whats the point of having this enclosure, if you cant enclose everything into it.

Unless anyone knows of a better "Enclosure" that I can enclose everything into?


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Cyberlocc said:


> Well I switched to the Fresh Fish cobs, but ya it was these, https://www.digikey.com/product-det...c/CTM-22-6527-90-36-TW01/1214-1553-ND/8324689


The fresh fish are rated at double the test current, which for the 1211 is 1.2a or max 2.4a


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> The fresh fish are rated at double the test current, which for the 1211 is 1.2a or max 2.4a


Right ya I get that, however with the FF, Id run 4, so I could do 2 in parallel, or I could just run 1 750 for each LED. 2 in parallel on 2 drivers could be better, of course at that point I could probably just 3 total COBs, 2 6500ks and 1 Chille, or a bread and pastries.

Same wattage, and much reduced cost.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

8 drivers but 3 "pins" Technically you only have 2 channels of COB's.
https://www.stevesleds.com/LDD-Driver-Array--8X-Drivers_p_306.html


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> 8 drivers but 3 "pins" Technically you only have 2 channels of COB's.
> https://www.stevesleds.com/LDD-Driver-Array--8X-Drivers_p_306.html



It would be 7 drivers if I go with the Tunables, 6 for the COBs and 1 for the blue, or we could do 6 for the COBs and 1 for blue and 1 for red, that would be cool. 

That 8 driver wont fit lol. Its more than 7 inches, it has to be 5 or less. The 6 from coraflux will fit. I wish Rapid LED had a 5 or 6. And that it wasnt too tall, I still need to power that fan as well remember.

Are those soldered drivers from him? They have to be soldered to fit the case, the pull out type board is too tall.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.jameco.com/z/LDD-1200HW...MI5Pnv8YX93AIVDJFpCh2dpAIzEAQYAiABEgLno_D_BwE

Just use wired ones.. You can thermal glue them anywhere...


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> https://www.jameco.com/z/LDD-1200HW...MI5Pnv8YX93AIVDJFpCh2dpAIzEAQYAiABEgLno_D_BwE
> 
> Just use wired ones.. You can thermal glue them anywhere...



Yep was thinking the same. Couldn't find the wired ones though, in the size I need. 

So if I am right I think rapid led said the depth to the bottom of the T slots, is 5/8s of an inch. (Idk if they were saying that was or the panel) 

I think the depth of their premium heatsink is 5/8 inch. (From the splash guard to Tslot). That said, I don't know what they are selling in that regard. 

What I mean by that, from the video I seen the guy had some plastic stand offs on the board. They said it was less than 1/8inch too tall. 

So if they are including those stand offs, I could remove those use some kind of foam tape or thermal tape, clip the solder pins and maybe fit it. 


I'm just going to buy the setup, and see what happens. I need the sink anyway, the board is only 16. 

.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

So jeffkrol, which of these 2 would be better. 

A. 4 x CTM22s 1 x Citizen Royal Blue COB (only be running it at .500, so 18ws Max) 2 x Cree 660nm red (or a different red open to suggestions?)

b. 5 x CTM22s 4 x Royal Blue LEDs (Crees?) 2 x Red 660nms. 


Either way, the wattage of the CTMs will be very similar, though they may give a better spread with 5. I dont know how much blue I need to push higher spectrum's, or if a COB will be more efficient at doing so, im thinking yes, especially since the widest lens for the Stars is 80. 


Also this power supply? https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/HLG-240H-48A?qs=Pc4kzEvJlcS8QtF1/k4rXg== I know its a little more expensive then like this, https://www.rapidled.com/mean-well-se-350-48/, but its also water resistant, Easier to stash, looks better, and safer wattage level, I'm aiming for around 240 now, not that I will use that much 99% of the time, but thats where the numbers fall, and I want to have headroom. Easier to separate on the other cages as well.

Edit: So the Optics wont work . They are 90mm diameter, they wont fit there too wide. The most I can do is like 60mm diameter. Also have to go with 4, the driver setup doesnt work with 5. Its 4 or 6, So I guess 4 is best, but for blue cobb or na?


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

I guess I could go ghetto lol. eBay

Or I could try cutting the Angelina down to height I need.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

3W per CTM (or less, did calc for 6500k)will push the K temp up quite a bit (estimated to 10000K) so one rb to 4 is about right.

There are "surplus" high quality rb COB's on the bay.
They are solderless BUT unlikely to find the orig plug.. Can't say..They can be soldered 


> 45W LUXEON Rebel ES Royal Blue 16up 450nm High Power Led Emitter


$5.56
would save money..

HLG240h-42A (or AB) makes a bit more sense (unless I missed something). 5.72A Can tweak the voltage to about 45v
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/HLG-240H-42A?qs=Pc4kzEvJlcSTsMRw%2bUfOyw==

Got a lot more "headroom" w/ the 
SE-350-48 @ 7Amps..

SE listed as "obsolete" at mouser:
Newer model?
https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/meanwell-nes-350-48-350w-48v-dc-power-supply/
NES-350-48
Nope on the way out as well

Here cheaper and current:
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/mean-well-usa-inc/LRS-350-48/1866-3350-ND/7705033

The driver/ps combos are lower amps but fanless and a bit more compact..
Normally fans bug me but due to the relatively large array I'd prob go w/ the fanned power supply at 48V 7.3A
Lots of room for expansion..
https://www.meanwell.com/Upload/PDF/LRS-350/LRS-350-SPEC.PDF

LRS350-48
https://www.amazon.com/LRS-350-48-Switching-Supplies-350-4W-115Vac/dp/B013EU4KNK


Might want to save the creativity for a custom plex shield..

You should draw a sketch of your hood area..I'm floundering w/ some of these dimensions.. like where do you get the 60mm width from.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> 3W per CTM (or less, did calc for 6500k)will push the K temp up quite a bit (estimated to 10000K) so one rb to 4 is about right.
> 
> There are "surplus" high quality rb COB's on the bay.
> They are solderless BUT unlikely to find the orig plug.. Can't say..They can be soldered
> ...


Yep, will check those out 




jeffkrol said:


> HLG240h-42A (or AB) makes a bit more sense (unless I missed something). 5.72A Can tweak the voltage to about 45v
> https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/MEAN-WELL/HLG-240H-42A?qs=Pc4kzEvJlcSTsMRw%2bUfOyw==


That really doesn't matter does it? Same thing, both As have a voltage pot, the amperage is same ect. The amperage, looks different because your looking at different voltages. Those have the same amperage, they are both 5a at 48v and 5.72a at 42vs. 

the AB adds 0-10v dimming, dont want that or need the extra wires, just the constant voltage is needed. 



jeffkrol said:


> Got a lot more "headroom" w/ the
> SE-350-48 @ 7Amps..
> 
> SE listed as "obsolete" at mouser:
> ...


Few things, Not waterproof or humidity proof, not even resistant. Wires Exposed, much larger, way more than needed wattage, that could almost run both fixtures, and I didn't see the new model before, and the old ones have the worst efficiency I have seen on a PSU in a long time, like thats a $15-20 a month difference (when all cages are done). The new one, is better, still a few bucks a month difference. 



jeffkrol said:


> The driver/ps combos are lower amps but fanless and a bit more compact..
> Normally fans bug me but due to the relatively large array I'd prob go w/ the fanned power supply at 48V 7.3A
> Lots of room for expansion..
> https://www.meanwell.com/Upload/PDF/LRS-350/LRS-350-SPEC.PDF
> ...


Covered above, and no room for expansion, its not enough to run 2 lights, the heat sink cant cool more than I already have (they say 200ws max, I'm already over that), and my breaker cant take anymore anyway, not that I could fit much else, other than a few 3w leds, which I can do with the 240. 




jeffkrol said:


> Might want to save the creativity for a custom plex shield..


They wont fit width wise either, without cutting them. Do you think cutting them will stop them from working? I mean they are just white plastic.

The silicon lens, I may be able to cut those easier, as they have that square shape and a round mount. I could just cut them on 2 sides to the square to make them fit, would still have 2 screw holes. The deciding factor would be if the screw holes line up in a way it will fit. 

A custom plex shield? I was going to use AR Acrylic, and no modding it, might make it thin enough to put a thin aluminium over it to hide everything, hadn't decided yet thats if I can find it thin enough. 



jeffkrol said:


> You should draw a sketch of your hood area..I'm floundering w/ some of these dimensions.. like where do you get the 60mm width from.


Done. 

https://imgur.com/a/Ecs6RDp








I dont know why this site doesn't like imgur lol. Cant embed it for some reason, sorry.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Works fine for me :/ link directly to the image if you're doing


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> Works fine for me :/ link directly to the image if you're doing ...[/quote]
> 
> Oh durr lol, forgot about that, been awhile since i had to use imgur lol. TY.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> they are both 5a at 48v and 5.72a at 42vs.


Yea I know but by adj. the voltage you can usually slightly increase ps efficiency.
Way I look at it it's one of the reasons for soo many diff voltages. like what is the point of making a 42V unit..
hmmmm...

and the spec "looks" better.. 
Anyways a bit on a general theory of ps's









Soo to get this straight.. which colors where, which drivers and how many units..

OVERALL picture
See I was picturing 2, one on each side of your prev. mentioned heat lamp.. also in-between 2 fluorescent..


I've got an aversion to putting ps's over heat sources so the open frame w/ a single 2 wire bus line going to the canopy lights is fine w/ me..
I never put ps's in canopies so generally waterproofing is not an issue...












roughly 105W LED per "side"

i understand your wanting to enclose as much as possible but w/ fans that's really not much of an option..
Switching the driver boards topside (LDD's are potted so no real issue) gives real estate for one more COB in the front..


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Yea I know but by adj. the voltage you can usually slightly increase ps efficiency.
> Way I look at it it's one of the reasons for soo many diff voltages. like what is the point of making a 42V unit..
> hmmmm...
> 
> ...


Yes I know the theory of efficiency, however in practice, that isnt really accurate these days. I have PSUs that dont drop below 90% across any load, and they are 1600ws, also cost me 600 each (PC Power Supplys, I dabble in hardcore overclocking) 

At any rate, the one I linked, is 94% efficient at full load. 


Okay so clarifying,

Here is a color coded light schematic. 









the drivers are also shown, but I can list too, 

2x 1500h, each will run 2 of the CW channels on the CTM 22s, wired in parallel, so 750ma each. 
2x 1000h, each will run 2 of the WW channels on the CTM 22s, wired in parallel, so 500ma each. 
1x 500h, will run the RB Cob channel.
1x 300h, will run the Red channel. 


Now, yes you are correct, 1 on either side of the heat lamp. So here is a drawing. 










2x 240w fixtures, up to 480 total (real) watts of LEDs.

I am not mounting the PSU in the canopy, rather on the back of it kind of, however with misters going for very long periods, and the fogger blasting fog all night long, its going to be very very humid. I am recreating a rainforest lol.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks. got "stuck" on thinking your max was 250W not 250 per side..
as to the lensing.. can you stagger the pucks to get the space, you know a "W" config? The 3w take up min room.

Not crazy about the big RB overall..
If you switched to 3W single emitters you could make a row of solderless (actually 3 rows is preferred (RGB)....
Need ..one more..channel..

By centering the 3 rows you can spread the COB's out a bit,,

ONE more option for the center..expensive add on but by serialing some channels you can keep dim pins down..
https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-65w-grow-led-5-channel-for-plants/

Sadly no cyan but that's another story..
Serial ch 3,4,5 (just makes it at 500mA), separate 1, 2 and you add "IR" which according to current theory, is best like by itself 15min prior to lights on and 15 min longer than lights out..Huh, sounds like thier pr blurb.. funny.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Thanks. got "stuck" on thinking your max was 250W not 250 per side..
> as to the lensing.. can you stagger the pucks to get the space, you know a "W" config? The 3w take up min room.


Okay, thats a good idea I thought of that too, but didn't know if the light would be uneven? Anyway, what about instead of a W, Maybe like this? 









the drivers location would change a bit, I didn't do that in the pic. However, the idea was for the mains to come in on the full driver board and also a Ethernet for channel signals. Then on the other driver side, there will be an Ethernet for serialing the channels. (just carrying the PWM, from one light to the other). So each light, can then be built independently, so if they are build the same with the shape above, when each is turned with the mains power facing to the outside of the cage, that is how the pucks will line up. 

If I drop the COB RB, then that could work, though I couldn't use that puck you linked them? I could string in infareds though? I dont think I need to though, I am using a special new type of basking light, that produces nothing but infrared and heat. Arcadia DEEP Heat Projector 50w (= to 75- 90w incandescent bulb) 110v USA - lightyourreptiles.com Then I could mix a few different types of reds and blues, I was going to do that with the Reds, use 2 far reds and 2 photo reds. 





jeffkrol said:


> Not crazy about the big RB overall..
> If you switched to 3W single emitters you could make a row of solderless (actually 3 rows is preferred (RGB)....
> Need ..one more..channel..
> 
> By centering the 3 rows you can spread the COB's out a bit,,


Yep, I could run some stars in between then. Dotted all around. 




jeffkrol said:


> I could do RGB and put Red/Green on the same channel like the Aurora does? But ya, Apex kills me with the 4 channels . I could also maybe put the Reds on the WW channel? and then use blues and 6500ks to balance it out?
> 
> ONE more option for the center..expensive add on but by serialing some channels you can keep dim pins down..
> https://www.ledgroupbuy.com/cree-lumia-5-2-65w-grow-led-5-channel-for-plants/
> ...


Ya but it takes up a lot of space, and like I said, I already have Infrared. I can and likely will have the infrared going before lights on, and I can do do it for a few after lights out. It will also keep night temps in line, on cold nights too so will be used at night somewhat.

And the UVB light, although they call it that, it actually give A, B, and C. So I will have all rays of the sun even the ones we cant see ;P Except Cyan, but thats another post .


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

Also I think I am going to go with the Makers Heat-sink instead, Because of this, https://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/makersdriver-5up-pro


I can go with the slim, but I need to figure out a way to shroud over it to make it look good .


EDIT: Never mind, that gets wayy to expensive, and its not even 0-10v without an accessory they dont even sell.....


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Also I think I am going to go with the Makers Heat-sink instead, Because of this, https://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/makersdriver-5up-pro
> 
> 
> I can go with the slim, but I need to figure out a way to shroud over it to make it look good .
> ...



Well agree w/ the price thing but "believe" 0-10V direct connect works..
Can't really control LDD's w/ "pots" (there are a few but range is like 2.5V-0) so there must be a translation somewhere.


Need to verify..but would be surprised if it wasn't APEX ready like their "drivers"


> Neptune Apex ready


https://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/makersdriver-2up-pro

What do you expect?.. Reef pricing.. LOL

Funny, people used to or usually complain about COB pricing when it's SUCH a small part of the whole...


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > Also I think I am going to go with the Makers Heat-sink instead, Because of this, https://www.ledsupply.com/led-drivers/makersdriver-5up-pro
> ...


I don't mind spending the money, if I am getting something worth it. 

However, there heatsink is pretty ugly, the board only takes 1000ma no 1500mas, so I would need 2 at 60 each, and they do not have 0-10v.


Okay I should explain better, it does have some kind of 0-10v, however it only works with their controller and there pot board. It says on the description 0-10v control requires optional add on board, which is then not listed. 

So I googled it, and a bunch of people were complaining on R2R, that they still haven't released an add on board and say just use our controller (which is like another 80).

If it would have worked with a Apex, I would have tried to make it work, and maybe had paid the cost. But since it doesn't, it's kind of a waste, and not especially attractive TBH (the board is, the heatsink is fugly) 

I will make the Rapid one work 🙂. I looked at that one again and they do ask you to choose a sticky standoff or a screw down one. So the video was correct. That stand off looked like 3/16 inch or more white plastic, so they said it's a hair less than 1/8 too big. 

I'm sure that's do to long pins sticking out the bottom PCB, I can clean that up, and throw it on some double sided insulation tape or use some thermal glue and mount it up better, and hopefully within size.

I have ran into that before with motherboards in 1u Server cases, they have 1/8 inch pin sticking out the bottom and it shorts the board. Little snip, little file, GTG 🙂.


----------



## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

On another note, I was trying to get the perfect juggle if I went with the 5up. 

And I am curious, how are these lumens measurements on that CTM22s? 

They list nominal as 32ws, but they are not saying if that's across the led or 1 channel. Then below they put lumens, CW3160 - WW 2846. 

So which is that,? Is that 32ws across the entire LED gives 6000 lumens? Or does 32ws give 3160, because 98 lumens per watt is pretty terrible. That's less effiency than a T5.....


Ya I mathed it out, I don't think it's 180lumens per so it's 98. 

CRI is nice, but I can't sacrifice that much light for it. 

The CXM is at 153 even. 


Those CTMs are entirely too inefficient.


Alright new plan lol. 

2x FF, ran on 1 1500h each, thats 54ws each, So same as I was getting from the white channels on the CTMs (27w for each CTMs 6500k channel). However the CTMs would give me 10800 lumens of 6500k per fixture, the FF will give me 13,285 (rounded up), thats almost 3000 more lumens for the same wattage, thats a big deal. 

Now for WW, we will do the same, Thats slightly less WW wattage, then we had before, at 54ws, but I think thats okay being I will use Fresh bread at 2700k, and if we look at lumens, thats 6156 (114lpw for FB), and 7056 lumens for the CTM22s WW channels, but with some red mixing and adding some 6500k I can tune it well I think and get more lumens. 

This is also 3 cobs per fixture, instead of 4, so saves money, its easier to place the 3 cobs, and in the end I end up with. 

38,882 Lumens for 324 total watts. 

the other way,

35,712 Lumens for 360 total watts. 

So I increase lumens, I keep CRI, and I use less wattage, so I can add more watts to blue and red channels, and I use less drivers! I can also maybe add some Point spots in the system, like some 3ws with 30 degree reflectors to help increase floor par.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

And that Ledil lens is boss!, This guy on roll it up tested it, and hes crazzy par with that, though his was the 75degree, and the one I am looking at is 100 degree, still. OP.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

This is what we need! Gosh Darnit! https://www.digikey.com/product-det...0N0UCB57G/CXB3590-0000-000N0UCB57G-ND/5302332


LED Group buy has the old model, but its sold out. 140lm/w Efficiency, I would gladly pay the 100 each!


Thats 40% more Lumens, per watt, that is a drastic difference.


Okay and enter the world of 5700k, I am finding Crees and Veros all over and 90-95 CRI, COBs with 115% or better efficiency, supplment with a WW, for when I want more redish colors, and we have a winner. Yes its not as blue as 6500k, So I will add more blue LEDs, 15% efficiency is a lot. 


So if we take the data for the CTM22s, and we double it, so 2 of them, 64ws, thats 6320, if we take one of the Veros, at 54ws they produce 10,000 lumens....... That is a serious difference for a tiny bit of kelvin I think. Thats one Vero for every 2 CTM22 white channels, still uses less wattage, and provides more lumens, by almost double and is still 93CRI, which is actually higher than the CTM22s 6500ks CRI.

Yes they cost 35 (scrath that, 100 a piece) dollars a piece, but they pay for themselves quickly lol. 

If we go down to 4000k, we see this, insane, 95CRI, 131 lp/w https://www.digikey.com/product-det...0R0U0A40G/CMA3090-0000-000R0U0A40G-ND/7793532


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Like I said earlier you would be hard pressed to find a better 6500K chip than the Fresh fish. 
AND like I said, shotgun approach vs finess
This is the same discussion rehashed I had w/ ChrisX....

Those big CREE's @ 5600k average around $70 each. w/ 12000Lumens and 2.5A drivers..
$7 for 1200 Lumens isn't earth shattering but very respectable..

https://www.digikey.com/products/en?mpart=L2C2-57801202E0600&v=1416
133L/W 920 L typical.. $7.59
cooling and spread start to play a part..

CREE has always chased density, that is their main "shtick".. but "sometimes" at the expense from quality of light.
I was initially very excited by the Vero Decor range till the "desirable" chips were never available to mere mortals..

But from my personal perspective they don't ..quite.. get it.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/661818-diy-bridgelux-vero-18-led-build.html









Well these would do, but again, still "low" density..
4 step is pretty sloppy though..
https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/bridgelux/BXRC-56G10K0-L-24/976-1286-ND/5180258

Not all 90CRI are created equal...and, again, personally wil take a hit on density if it involves either higher quality of light or ease of build. or both.

YMMV


CREE "got it" here but good luck finding them..
https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/the-diy-cob-addiction.346731/page-3
Bridgelux Decor Ultra.. old name I'm sure because these were the first iteration.

This is fun, Chinese (like almost every COB..;) and in italy.. 
282907386720
US 100W "kit"..
312110723696


> 1x DIY Kit -- High CRI 90+ RA(93-96) COB LED Daylight White 5600K 100W 10000lm


Point is there is stuff everywhere..

Generally speaking one doesn't increase CRI by adding blue .. well part royal blue. You will raise the K temp but at the expense of CRI..
W/ LEd's almost totally dependent on reg blue/cyan red and some violet..
you want blanket of light.. 6 of these panels..

https://store.yujiintl.com/collecti...cri-cob-led-mini-portable-panel-20w-unit-2pcs
22.50/2
CRI>90, CCT: 6500K
6x 2000 @ 700mA..32v..12,000 total lumens 100W $67.50
no, not the most efficient.. 

Guess I'm snobby, 90's not good enough in high K or.. at least minimum..
Does it really mean that much? not to most.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Like I said earlier you would be hard pressed to find a better 6500K chip than the Fresh fish.
> AND like I said, shotgun approach vs finess
> This is the same discussion rehashed I had w/ ChrisX....
> 
> ...



I'm not trying to raise CRI by adding blue, I am trying to raise K temp by adding blue. 

I found a Cree, 100 each on mouser, 148% efficiency, 93CRI, thats ALOT of lumens to lose vs the Fish at 110lm/w, which btw I am not convinced that is even 6500k, I wrote them and asked. The reason I say that is they state right on the datasheet, it has been stripped of reds to make fish look better, High CRI and Stripped of Reds, cannot co exist. No where do they list the CRI and that scares me tbh. 

Do you have a Fresh Fish? Have you put it under a spectrometer or the Seneye? Can you show me the curve? 

Its not about the 7 dollar initial price, you have to factor in how deep I need to go with the light, and the fact that my electricity is expensive, its on the higher side for the US. The CRI is wasted if I cant keep the plants alive due to lack of light.

You also brought up ease of use, well the Cree and Veros beat the Lumis all day on those fronts, the lens are made for them, not ghetto rigged on, they have solderless connectors ect. They are a million times more user friendly, and because they are more efficient they are more popular, and because they are more popular they are more user friendly, and because they are more user friendly they are more expensive, but I'm fine with that.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yes I have a fresh fish.. I have a Seneye but since its' a simple RGB sensor not really very accurate.

To be honest I trust Lumileds more than CREE.
I don't believe CREE, in regards to every COB hist their best case metrics..

Do you have an integrating sphere to test to see if they are err "honest"????? 
$200 worth of test equip?

you have factors that I don't really have, therefore your decisions will be different, I get that.

ease of use was referring to adding channels/colors to "fix" the things that are broke..

going "deep" is a ..matter...of..lensing...going deep over x area is a matter..of..lensing.. and power...

your money...your choices...and what weighs each choice is an individual thing.


When we hit 200L/w consistently and cheaply I'll reconsider.. 
100/L/w is comparable to all the other tech out there florescent and MH's
Matter of fact to save energy $'s you might even be better off w/ HPS...but an ugly color..
https://californialightworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/lumen.jpg
Realistically barely above HPS in terms of energy savings..more work in distribution..









LED point is control-ability, small size, less IR heat and easier to direct..regardless of "technique..



> Dear Jeff,
> Thank you for your interest in Lumileds. We apologize for the delayed response.
> 
> The CRI measurement is 95 typical.
> ...


Again, they don't "remove" red just don't heavily phosphor for it..
I've certainly never argued against adding it..and frankly what the low K COB's were/are for.. 
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1215362-high-cri-diy-build.html

ONE overlooked point.. Lumens per se don't really count ALL the Chip spectrum evenly anyways..only a sub-set of the PAR.
Point is w/ spikes in the less PAR efficient green/yellow range your PUR (gak) output vs Lumens isn't exactly accurate..

In other words you can have higher lumens in one chip but less "PUR". 
NOW I'm not considering this a maj. issue here.. just an FYI.









A 10,000 Lumen green light isn't as "effective" as a 5000 Lumen red light.. Made up numbers ..
R/B hort lights score low in L/w but high in PAR/W

Another chip for fun:


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Yes I have a fresh fish.. I have a Seneye but since its' a simple RGB sensor not really very accurate.
> 
> To be honest I trust Lumileds more than CREE.
> I don't believe CREE, in regards to every COB hist their best case metrics..
> ...



Well I get all that, and like you said the situation differs. 

I did manage to find a holy Grail though! I seen on that thread you linked I think it was talking about the Veros, and finding them affordably. Well I have don't that! 🙂. 

It took alot browsing, and filtering to find but I found something worth checking out I think. 


Now they have them in the details as a food LED, and as 90cri, well they are a Decor specialty and 93 CRI, according to the site's I had read (though 90 is the minimum). They are also 100% not food, they are Decor, according to their datasheet. 


http://www.futureelectronics.com/en...=CPCBuyNow&utm_campaign=Octopart_Ext_Referral

22 dollars each. 
93 CRI
5600k
148 L/W!


Edit: wrong link, but that will work. I found them with octopart though, and bought some from FE this morning.


Also I know there is way worse options than the Fish LEDs not saying they are bad. They are good from what I am seeing. 


Like this, I linked before, http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/jungle-dawn-40w-mega-plant-grow-spotlight/, I have one of these right now, it's pulling 47ws from the wall.

So I am assuming there is 40 real watts of LEDs, giving us a 86 L/W, that's terrible lol.


As for the Lens, ya IDK I like the one I linked before, but the rollitup guys are saying the beam is too tight and so you get serious center par, but bad par everywhere else. 

Though I had thought, red Carry's further right? 

So then If I go with those, maybe a 75 like he did or a 60, or a 45 if I can find one, then I do the first Vero 5600k with it so the outside most ones, then I do the middle (the WW) with the 105, and the inside most light with a 105, that should give me good cover, and good par at the soil of the left and right sides, which is where I will put high light plants that need the floor.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Well I get all that, and like you said the situation differs.
> 
> I did manage to find a holy Grail though! I seen on that thread you linked I think it was talking about the Veros, and finding them affordably. Well I have don't that! 🙂.
> 
> ...


FF COB, 1" under water, 3" from COB 500mA current..
K temp is notoriously low over any chip/company in this tank.
Lux to PAR conversions make zero sense..
"EVERYONE" says the PAR is accurate.. ..
LUX reading in air is 24000 @ 6"....


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > Well I get all that, and like you said the situation differs.
> ...



Hmm I confused of the seneyes air response now.

That doesnt add up, you should see a massive drop of Lux and PAR 1" below the water line, you will get it back, throughout the tank, but to see the same par right below a water line shouldn't be happening.

Either that or the water response of the Seneye is off, I remember seeing the BRSTV video when they found out that the LCI was only giving correct measurements in air. 

So does that apply? Should you take, the Seneyes water readings and alter them like they did?

Which BTW don't know if I ever updated you on that. They weren't very clear....

"Yes, the Reef can measure PAR out of the water. However, water does affect the amount of light that reaches your plants, so measuring your lights out of water will not necessarily let you know the amount of light that reaches your plants.



We hope this helps, please let us know if you have any further questions 😊"

That's what they told me when I asked if the Seneye was accurate out of water.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Cyberlocc said:


> Hmm I confused of the seneyes air response now.
> 
> That doesnt add up, you should see a massive drop of Lux and PAR 1" below the water line, you will get it back, throughout the tank, but to see the same par right below a water line shouldn't be happening.


Free air was a REAL LUX meter w/ cosine correction, not the Seneye..
Height was adjusted to equalize LUX..

67-ish is a standard LUX to PAR conversion figure though anything from about 50 to 7 0is fair game..

Point is if the Seneye is accurate w/ PAR.. 660 LUX "SHOULD" be anywhere from 
33,000 to 46,200 NOT 24,387..



> you should see a massive drop of Lux and PAR 1"


No, and one of the things that REALLY middied that water is Li-Cor.. They screwed up their conversion factor by not applying it underwater. even when "requested". Actually kind of funny because it was a years old flaw..
BRS has a vid on it.. 
When applied "correctly" there was no "massive" drop in PAR..certainly not at 1"

Saltwater Apogee 520(?) has sort of the same issue.. If you measure in free air your readings are..err.. WRONG..w/ out a correction factor.

Point is one needs to be VERY careful..
BRS "justified" it saying the error was "global" so underwater measurements were consistent over depth and lights.. yet wrong..
The TREND was what mattered..when comparing light to light..

In other words if one measured 50% less PAR that was correct .. The absolute # was wrong though..
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2621799
you can mine this for the links..
PAR measurements should have been "corrected" by mult. PAR by 1.32.. It wasn't being done..


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > Hmm I confused of the seneyes air response now.
> ...



Hmm interesting, but then again, if you do that in reverse you get a much lower par then what you are seeing. At about 357 by your example, an incandescent would be 475 par at that lux. According to curious plants calc. 

You said the par meter and the Seneye are agreeing right? So the problem is with the PAR.

So more than likely and no offense to BRS, but there is nothing wrong witht he licore, and they are tripping.


You honestly think that the Licore is wrong? Despite they make meters for scientists, but the reefers are right? 

What I am saying is, it would make more sense to me, that the cheap meters are wrong, the Licore is right. Of course no one wants to hear that, they don't want to hear there par is actually 1.32 lower than the cheap meters say, becsuee that means more light needed, more watts needed, ect. 

Like you said, they don't want to address it, because there is no issue. Water refracts light, which means there is no possible way, you don't lose par through water, only people claiming that you dont, are the ones selling something. 

Never trust anyone who is selling something lol.


Stating that data needs manilupalted also makes no sense to me. Par is par, whether it goes through water or air. Where do you think PAR is magically increased by 1.32, because it's in water, because that's what your saying.


Maybe BRS is right, maybe they are not. In am just saying that makes no sense, if you think about it. And I have already caught them in enough misinformation in their vids, to be doubtful of anything they say.

So which seems more true to you. 

A. Expensive, Scientific grade equipment, is wrong and has been for years. 

Par is increased by 32% when it goes through water. 

Cheap hobbyist equipment that BRS sells, is correct. 



B. Expensive Scientific Grade equipment is right.

Par is not increased because it has went through water. 

Cheap hobbyist equipment is not off by 5-10% but 37-42%. 



Now when you answer that question, honestly to me and yourself, then we can get somewhere 🙂.

Which would also explain the Lux, why in your example, did the LUX stay the same, but the Par is not correct and you blame the LUX? PAR is a by product of LUX, another words, that meter and all the hobby grade ones are reporting higher by 32% than Licore..

Also keep in mind measuring LUX is easy, and pretty fool proof, measuring PAR is more difficult. So we have LUX meters saying the LUX hasn't changed, but the PAR has? And went up? 

That isn't possible, nor is up probable. Spectrum colors are filtered through the water, just like they are our atomosphere, which means par is decreased, as those spectrums are filtered out. If you want to say divide the Air par by 32%, that would be more probable.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

They confirmed w/ Li-Cor.. 
It's a fact...

Believe what you want......



> Immersion Effect Error
> A sensor with a diffuser for cosine correction will have an
> immersion effect when used under water. Radiation entering the
> diffuser scatters in all directions within the diffuser, with more
> ...


http://www.licor.com/env/pdf/light/Rad_Meas.pdf
https://www.licor.com/documents/4khpqtkq20ks3gmbt01a
it's 1.32...

I'm not going to argue w/ your mis-understandings...

But yes, big names can be wrong..  and they were and admitted it..










seneye is "as good" or better than the Apogee 200 and THE only reading trust w/ "qualifiers"..
Lux and spectrum and PUR are ...err..fluff and prone to large systemic errors..AFAICT and of course only good for on axis measurements.


https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...-to-the-test-brstv-investigates.294492/page-3


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> They confirmed w/ Li-Cor..
> It's a fact...
> 
> Believe what you want......
> ...



Okay 

1. There is nothing on that data sheet that says anything about take the number x 1.32 for under water use. So why did you link that? 

2. We fast foward to this. 









then we look at this, 
https://youtu.be/WWc3dUwQuWI?t=162

Now that prime is 8 inches over, and then at 18inches which means 26 inches total. Notice how the PAR is higher? Alot higher? 

Water CANNOT INCREASE PAR!, That is not possible, I am listening to science you are listening to a vendors YT video, a vendor that is often caught in spreading false info..... 

I can agree, with moving par, but that isnt what is happening here, you are increasing par by a factor of like you said 1.32, sure big names can be wrong, but all of them? So you telling me every high end par meter in the world, and all the LUX meters too are wrong? Because BRS and a couple of cheap meters know better? Seriously?

Licore refuses to do anything, because there is nothing wrong with their stuff.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Hi guys. Chris, from Apogee Instruments here. We’ve investigated the issues raised with our PAR meters in the BRStv video and have posted an announcement on our website (see link below). We wanted to conduct our own testing using precision spectroradiometers, since the reference sensor used in the video was having software problems causing the other meters to look significantly worse than they are. In this process,* we found that the Licor meter's software error explained some of the bad numbers in the video,* but our testing also uncovered a small manufacturing defect in our 500 series sensors that has been causing low readings when measuring individual bulbs that are in the 400-420 nm range (such as deep-blue and violet "actinic" bulbs). This has been corrected in our sensors going forward, but if you already own an Apogee 500 series PAR meter and want to see if this issue significantly affects the measurements you are making, please see our site for more details.


http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/apogee-instruments-500-quantum-series-product-announcement/

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/p...-to-the-test-brstv-investigates.294492/page-3


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

It's all over the damn manual you have to change the multiplication factor in the data logger, it doesn't display the value in the manual but it is indeed like 1.3 higher.
https://www.licor.com/documents/285ymmolackqjidu9wao

Sorry I guess their issue was that the LI-1500 data logger did not use the water multiplication factor that was entered and always used the air multiplier. 

To be clear it is not that the water is increasing the par, it is that the water makes the sensor itself absorb less photons and therefore produce a lower voltage from "seeing" the same amount of light. So the same amount of photons hitting the sensor above the water vs right below the water creates a smaller voltage and must be corrected. It should be like 500 par at the surface and 490 or something right below the surface.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

And the problem w/ Li-Cor is it wasn't "taking" the change (software glitch)... 
People were seeing things like 500PAR at the surface..350 right below the water..even after clicking on the correction factor.
now THAT was impossible.. (note to self I SWEAR I wrote this very paragraph at another time.. )

start at about 7:40

https://youtu.be/6hUkufXBb3I


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> And the problem w/ Li-Cor is it wasn't "taking" the change (software glitch)...
> People were seeing things like 500PAR at the surface..350 right below the water..even after clicking on the correction factor.
> now THAT was impossible.. (note to self I SWEAR I wrote this very paragraph at another time.. )
> 
> ...


Yes that is alot of par loss, I would agree you that is too much. 


I still dont understand, like you yourself said as well, why the Seneye is reading so much par then. 

Have you tried it on Sunlight? So that you have a conversion to base from? Conversion is hard with LEDs, due to various spectras, from everything I have read.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Seems everyones mothers brother uncle have played LUX to PAR conversions.. Only constant is it's in the range I lised like 55-70 for dozens of different light sources..
Also people have compared Senye to Apogee/Li-Cor but AFAICT the "general consensus" is it's decent and close enough for the masses..
that 660PAR 3" from the COB is certainly not unusually high ..actually low.

so it's not the PAR that is in error but the LUX .. 

Seneye is said to have "multiple sensors" but I suspect it's just a R/G/B array..like a camera.. 
Add all up get PAR .. 
use just the G get LUX 
subtract the green, get PUR .. 

Pretty basic though probably not exactly that simple, does seem to have a really poor (like apogee 200's) IR cut filter.
It certainly can't compete w/ a full blown spectrophotometer/diffraction grated, dozens (if not 100's ) of sensors on an array $1000 unit..

Until presented w/ any other evidence.. PAR is OK, rest... ehhh..............

And since the optics (and the software) "should" be geared for immersion I can't exactly test the Seneye in air vs my Lux meter and "suspected" correct conversion factors..
I can pretty well void the Cosine issue by having the sensors close to an intense "beam" of LED's

for air measurements and getting into the ballpark those cheap PAR meters are "good enough" if one doesn't want to spend the chunk of change on a sq520...
https://www.apogeeinstruments.com/s...t-quantum-sensor-usb/#product-tab-description

again, as to Seneye accuracy in air??? 


I'm not the only one who's crunched all this..

OK played a bit.. not very accurately done but..
LUX=8000 (INS DX-200) which at 67 conversion is 119PAR.
https://www.pro-measure.com/product_p/dx-200.htm
SIDE note.. it annoyingly doesn't shut itself off. 
BTW: was $20 on eek bay.. point is to shop models..
SEE:202410871067
Seneye out of water at same height 147PAR..


took it outside w/ diffuse daylight

DX-200:
3300 LUX
49 PAR est..

Seneye:
23 PAR
855 LUX
12000K

Both were looking "up" and next to each other


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

That Vero Decor 5600K 90CRI is not new. It is quite old actually and I have have a bunch in a box somewhere. The good thing with them is that you can run them at 2A easily with some proper cooling. Add a Ledil Brooke-W and you got deep penetration easy.

ED. Just saw that those are Vero 29's. You should have gone with the Vero 18 because the forward voltage on the 29 does not make it easy or cheap to power. The Vero 18 at 2A would have been all you needed to push that much PAR at 4ft.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> That Vero Decor 5600K 90CRI is not new. It is quite old actually and I have have a bunch in a box somewhere. The good thing with them is that you can run them at 2A easily with some proper cooling. Add a Ledil Brooke-W and you got deep penetration easy.
> 
> ED. Just saw that those are Vero 29's. You should have gone with the Vero 18 because the forward voltage on the 29 does not make it easy or cheap to power. The Vero 18 at 2A would have been all you needed to push that much PAR at 4ft.


I didn't say it was new? I said that Jeff I had mentioned them, but they were expensive (at least I think he was talking about those?).

All the lights are going to be powered by LDDs, I have the voltage, I don't have the MA, nor the Room for the 18s, the lens don't change, so I can only fit 3-4 cobs. 

I wanted 54ws per cob, I could do that with the 18s, but I would be running out of optimal, and losing an insane amount of W/L, that's how LEDs work, you get a bigger led than needed and run it lower, not a smaller and run it higher. Over driving LEDs is really not a good idea in the long run. 



48v PSU, and a meanwell, it's all the same the 36v PSU is no cheaper, the difference is the 18s have a lower upper limit of MAH, and are 148 L/W, at 31ws, which means they would likely hit in the 120 neighborhood by being over drived. 

Where under driving the 29s will increase the L/W, by a bit, not much likely, but hopefully enough to give me some thermal headroom while maintaining the 148 L/W.



Edit:
Here is an example from the Vero 29 series datasheet, not the exact same LED, but close enough the principles remain. 











Now here is an 18, 









(I was close its 130ish)

So not only, will I not be able to hit my 54ws with the 18, getting close (45ws) would lower efficiency, to under 130. Where as undervolting the 29, will increase efficiency into 150s, (at 25c for both, which is fairly unrealistic, but still, that is why said that may allow 140 at 45-65c). 

If we go a no, rounding of data and say the 1050 numbers, we see 20 more lumens per watt for the 29, and we see the more wattage available. In total, the 29 is consuming a few more watts, not many, and producing almost 40% more light. I see absolutely no reason to go with the 18s at all. They are still too high of wattage to go on the cheap black power strips for smaller setups, they suck at efficiency when driven at worthwhile levels, for our use case, I see no advantage to them. Also running them at 2000 (which isnt possible with meanwell drivers that I am using) puts them at 112 l/w at 25c, that is terrible, and will likely be under 100 by the time they are at 65c. 


Its the same reason I dont like the CTM 22 LEDs (the Fish isnt too bad at 114 L/W. The reason to use LEDs is less heat and way more efficient, if your just going to throw efficiency out the window whats the point?

there is that old saying, you get what you pay for, but in this case your going to pay either way. Dont want to pay the upfront cost? Thats okay, you will pay even more when your electric bill comes in month after month, and when those Over driven LEDs need replaced in half the time an under drived one would. Just like people with solar, ya it costs money up front, but it pays for itself in the long run. 


@jeffkrol, so which do you think is correct, in your example? 

Like I said, Seneye said it would be accurate, are we believing that though?

Also, check the datasheet for the 29, there is your 200 L/W or dang close , run a ton of 29 decos at 500mah each, 180 lumens per watt!

Shoot, if you use an outside driver, you could stack 30 of those with no lens in the Rapid heatsink, 510ws at 180 lumens per watt (I dont think you could cool that with the rapid sink lol). 

But lets say you did, 9, 153 watts, 180 lumens per watt, 27,540 Lumens for 150ws, compared to 3 T5s at 5k lumens per 50 watts, so 15k lumens, Thats almost double the lumens , and thats giving the T5s an advantage, as arent they 54ws for 5k lumens? 

Actually wouldn't cost too much either, 180 for the Decos, just need 3 LDD 1500s, and a heatsink. Shoot I am already part way there, may do that myself, better spread, better efficiency, same amount of drivers . Kidding of course, but IDK, maybe one day we will see , If I feel I need more light, that will defiantly be the upgrade path. Dont need to use more watts, need to use better watts! 

What was it you said, Brute force VS Finesse, but thats exactly why those roll it guys use crees. They are not driving them hard, they are driving them low, and a lot of them (well some people drive them hard, but the smart people drive them low ). However thats where the differences come in, like I said, you are talking about running 1 or 2 of these over a fish tank, I am talking about running 16 of them over a ton of cages, that Lumens / Watt, becomes a majorly important factor. A few watts more needed, is fine for one, but when you multiply that by 16, well things change rapidly.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Cyberlocc said:


> I didn't say it was new? I said that Jeff I had mentioned them, but they were expensive (at least I think he was talking about those?).
> 
> All the lights are going to be powered by LDDs, I have the voltage, I don't have the MA, nor the Room for the 18s, the lens don't change, so I can only fit 3-4 cobs.
> 
> ...


I have made quite a bit of LED fixtures using everything from 3W stars to strips to Vero cannons but ok explain to me how LEDs work. The reason for going with the 18 is because you can run more in series which means a power supply with less current is needed.

6x Vero 18's in series and an HLG-320H-C1750B is all you would need and you don't have to mess with LDDs or anything else. Add whatever 0-10V dimming solution you want to it. Put Brooke-W's on the 18's and you got all the PAR you want at the distance needed.


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## Cyberlocc (Jul 28, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> Cyberlocc said:
> 
> 
> > I didn't say it was new? I said that Jeff I had mentioned them, but they were expensive (at least I think he was talking about those?).
> ...


Okay, ya well that's fine and would be fairly effiencent. 

Except for the fact, that I need and want a scheduled color chaing spectrum. I need and want both WW and CW, so turn that 1 driver into 4, for the 4 channels (Red, WW, CW, Blue), now they are strung on to drivers with a cord each, have to placed around the canopy. Now turn that into 8, as their is 2 fixtures.

Yes, for a single spectrum fixture your idea is fine. However I dont want a single spectrum fixture, hints why I went with 29s. I had assumed you knew all that, thus I didn't understand the 18s comment, in my situation, I though you were saying to overdrive the 18s.

(I could of swore you were here posting during the discussion)

Also to the Brooke's, I won't be able to fit those without custom drilling the splash sheild. Which maybe I will do that, but likely not. 

I will likely either use the silicon's or I will cut Angelinas to where they fit under the splash guard. 

This cage, doesn't really matter from looks perspective, as it has a high canopy cover, and that will surround the lights, the others though, don't have that, so it will matter there.


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