# DIY All Glass Tank, ADA style rimless, frameless, and finished!!! - 56K Warning



## John P.

"Sounds" easy!  I know this will be a challenge, but I'm confident the results will be worth it.

Thanks for documenting the process. I may follow your lead & do this to replace my acrylic 26-G with something less scratch prone.


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## Troy McClure

I hope you have a bunch of good right-angle clamps, you're going to need them! Best of luck, this sounds like a really exciting project.


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## scolley

Thanks folks. Am off on a biz trip at the moment, so expect no news for a week or so but...



Troy McClure said:


> I hope you have a bunch of good right-angle clamps, you're going to need them!


Funny, I keep hearing that, but for the life of me I don't know why. The test tank came out dead square, and I think this is why:

1) I ensured the place I assembled it was flat, very flat.
2) That same place was confirmed as level, at least as far as could be ascertained by a bubble level.
3) The two end pieces were cut at excellent right angles. See diagrams posted earlier for understanding of why these two pieces are so critical.
4) Spacers, of exact identical widths, were used at each seam.
5) During assembly the side and front/back pieces were taped at 90 degree angles to each other, assisted by a capenters square.
6) When the front and back pieces were bound tightly to the side pieces, which were cut at 90 degree angles (3 above), and were 90 degrees relative to each other (5 above), without variance due to inconsistent seam widths (4 above), and bound tightly by duct tape, all of it was placed on a suitable surface (1 and 2 above).

All together, that made a pretty dang square tank. If someone knows why this ain't so, I'd appreciate a comment, before I mess up a few hundred bucks worth of glass!

Thanks.


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## SCMurphy

It will be harder with bigger, heavier, pieces of glass. If you don't have someone helping you, seriously consider using a jig of some kind and right angle clamps.

BTW, you won't mess up your glass. You will just have to take a razor blade to the seams and start over if you get something wrong.


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## IUnknown

Scolley,
You've got me interested in this. I like your idea of using the syringe. I don't know how you are doing things, but its seems like the best way would be to use right angle clamps and a jig to get things in place, with the spacers installed in between the glass. Then you would mask the glass, taping the outside of the glass completely, and on the inside just where the silicone shouldn't go. Then just fill in the gap with the syringe. In this picture, your side panes don't look flush with the edge,










What order are you assembling the panes? I guess its like a puzzle, there has to be a correct order to get things to come out straight. Are you filling the silicone in from the inside or outside?










This is how I would assemble the tank, using angle brackets,


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## scolley

IUnknown! I'm so happy to see your post, because you are asking ALL the right questions!

Yes indeed the edges have problems with being flush in the test tank. Good call!

I posted those "uncomplementary" pics specifically because I wanted to be COMPLETELY honest with the issues here. In that case, the problems with being flush have every thing to do with the tolerance of the spec to which the glass provider will deliver. In the case of the pic below, the problem is due to the bottom pane was not as wide as the width of the two side panes plus the width of the spacers plus the width of the side pane. The difference you see is approx. 1/16 of an inch. This should be a significant disucssion between you and anyone providing the glass. In my case, I've made it clear in writing, any deviance beyond 1/32nd of an inch, and no deal - no money. They seem pretty clear on that point now.

As for the "order of things", it's a great question. But I'lll have to beg your indulgence. I'm off on a business trip now, and cannot refer to my documentaton of the assumed order of assembly. But I have given this much thought, and will post it is as soon as I return home.

But I think you are right about some things, and wrong on others IMHO. Jigs should not be required if your glass is square, and your surface is level. But the order of assembly appears to be ciritcal, which I will elaborate on, as soon as my travels are concluded (gimme a week or so... )

Regards -


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## SCMurphy

The suggestion for jigs is to help you maintain control of the glass. I don't doubt that you can hold a square piece of glass against a square piece of glass and get a right angle. I just think the finish product will be better if you aren't trying to make the right angle at the same time you are glueing or taping. A jig can be worth the 7 or 8 hands you might need when you realize you only have 2 and the glass is getting heavy. :wink:


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## scolley

SCMurphy said:


> I just think the finish product will be better if you aren't trying to make the right angle at the same time you are glueing or taping.


You're making a good point Sean. And I am not stuck on doing this the hard way, if there is a better way. Foolish but not stupid, if you know what I mean. :icon_wink 

What kind of jig are you referring to?


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## bastalker

Hi ya Scolly!! Man what an awsome task.. I could never picture myself doing anything like this...I would just fork over the cash...Good luck with this!! roud: Cant wait to see it finished...

Hey If it all works out, I can fork over some cash yer way!! :icon_bigg


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## Jackfrost

Scolly 

Great task !

As a fellow CT resident please let me know if you need help.

I will be more than happy to lend a hand.

Nick


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## SCMurphy

scolley said:


> What kind of jig are you referring to?





Jackfrost said:


> As a fellow CT resident please let me know if you need help. I will be more than happy to lend a hand.
> 
> Nick


Nick would be a good start? roud: 

Seriously though, I make jigs up as I go when I'm woodworking, that's the nature of a jig. Watch the New Yankee Workshop sometime, ignore the vastly overpowered tools and look at the construction methods Norm uses. (I like Norm, he's a UMass grad too.)

Coming up with a framework that is square and allows you to space the glass, then glue it, and holds it all straight while you tape it, is what I envision. Something as simple as square corner clamps which I use when building my canopies to an actual four sided frame work to hold all but the last piece of glass. I don't know what your work space is like but if you want a solid end product sometimes spending an equal amount of time on a jig is worth it.


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## scolley

bastalker said:


> Hey If it all works out, I can fork over some cash yer way!! :icon_bigg


Thanks Mark! But I'm not doing this for money. Pure foolishness is driving this effort!  



Jackfrost said:


> ...please let me know if you need help.


Hope you meant that Nick. I just might take you up on that!  



SCMurphy said:


> I don't know what your work space is like but if you want a solid end product sometimes spending an equal amount of time on a jig is worth it.


Sean - I'm sure your advice is solid. But I've got four problems in going that route. My workspace is almost none existant - very small - and even worse, it's my living room. So a major construction project just isn't going to happen there. Second, I'm not a good, or knowledgable, wood worker. Third, time is my most precious commodity. And building something in wood, to the level of precision neede for it to work, would take a lot of time for a wood klutz like me. And finally, I'm kind of hoping I can blaze a trail that is easily available to everyone.

But I would consider a simple jig, that is if you are talking about something like this picture.

Even then though, I'm not sure if that would make a significant difference. That would fix the angles of the sides, in relation to the other sides. But that shouldn't be that critical - if you can't see it by eyeballing it, it shouldn't hurt how the tank performs.

But the angle of the sides to the bottom - THAT's a different matter. I think getting that wrong would invite all sorts of problems.


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## SCMurphy

scolley said:


> Sean - I'm sure your advice is solid. But,...


It's my pleasure to try to help, I hope you are successful. I'm just interested in you finding the easiest route to that end. As long as you are saying "But" you are thinking of ways to get there. roud: 

Keep us posted!


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## IUnknown

These are what I used for my hood. I figured you could just put some rubber stoppers and use them with the glass.


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## scolley

IMO, Sean is right on target here, identifying a very good way to tackle this problem. Like the old problem of lifting the world, if you only have a lever that is long enough - you can do anything with the right tool. No argument there. As mentioned in my last post though, I've put a few constraints on the tools I select. (please folks, don't for a minute think that I don't appreciate your input, because I DO! Thanks!)

IUnknown - I don't know what that is, but it looks real slick. And it might even not violate my goal of trying to create a process that is repeatable by your average guy or gal. Assuming of course that you can tell me that those things are easily purchased at a reasonable cost (though they do look a bit nice, translated "expensive").

Problem is, I don't think they will help.

From the looks of it, the tool (whatever it is called) will help put a right angle on a corner, where the four corners are held in compression. That would help for the top corners. But as I mentioned in my last post, I don't think the top corners are a problem. It's the bottom corners that are the problem. And I don't think that device can hold them in compression because the bottom pane would get in the way. You'd just be trying not compress the bottom sheet against itself, unless the total perimeter of the sizes exceeded that of the bottom pane, which I believe would be a serious design flaw (a problem I dealt with about three posts ago).

But lets assume for a minute that my argument above is somehow fuzzy thinking. Even still, the tool you are showing seems to be geared to keeping the sides square, relative to the other sides. And IMO that's just not a real problem. Anything you can set with a square should be good enough. I.E. - it should not be a big deal if the supposedly rectangular tank, when viewed from above, turns out to be a bit of a rhombus.

The real structural problems set in when the sides are not at right angles to the bottom. Then new, and evil, stresses begin to be applied. And short of Sean's "build something" solution, I'm yet aware of anything to help that problem beyond a carpenter's square.


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## bastalker

I wonder if the aquarium manufactures put this much thought into this process.... :wink: I think the tank cost would weigh much less than the headaches involved in this DIY endeavor...But there is nuthin better than pointin out the fact that you built an awsome lookin display all by yerself!! roud:


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## SCMurphy

You know that little jig you showed a picture of would be useful while you are taping the sides together after glueing them. It would free up both hands and hold the top together until you got the tape up there. Then you could slip it backover the tape to hold it together while you worked on other corners. For the bottom, maybe just a strap clamp like they use for chair legs. It's like a strap hold down for cargo on your roof rack only you can apply more pressure with it.


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## IUnknown

Scolley,
I thought of them more as being extra hands. With the right angle clamps you would build the tank in steps as described before. First you would do the front and right panel and let it dry over night, then do the other side, etc. I would think that using tape would not be sturdy enough, and using the right angle clamps would let you concentrate on the silicon job (most important part). I don't see how you make the gap with the spacers and tape on the bottom panel, once you take the spacers out to start the silicon, I don't see the tape holding things in place. With the right angle clamps, you put the spacers in place, get everything where you want it, tighten, remove the spacers, and then concentrate on filling in the gap with silicon.

I think they are like $7 each at your local hardware store.


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## hadog

I have made a few 20g in the past ...all glass.

A few years back I decided I wanted a bigger tank, the cost to buy was way out, si I looked into builting all glass.....glass in this area is really $$$ so I decided not to.

Still wanting a bigger tank....after much research I have built two plywood tanks....one is 75g and the other is 95g

They are about 10 years old now and look new.

My cost was way down....and I found it much easier working with wood than large glass panels. Wood is a little more forgiving too. You can also be a littel more creative.


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## scolley

Man, you guys are killin' me! roud: 

Ok... thanks Mark.

Sean, I get the point on the strap and the jigs, but having done it once now, I know. You don't need them. Masking tape works really, really well. There's a tiny bit of sliding around as you assemble, but once you square things and tape it that way, it stays that way. I've already proved that to myself.

But IUnknown, I can't ignore your 2-sides, then 1 side the next day... suggestion. THAT I'm attracted to. And a jig might help, and I don't consider $7 too much. Not next to the glass...

The BIG problem I had with the test tank was not keeping it square. The big problem, the one that created the biggest mess, was the time constraint. Having to get the whole thing siliconed, positioned, taped, and cleaned up in the 10 minutes before the silicone starts skinning over was nearly impossible. And that was on a little tank.

Using a jig to set two sides, get them perfect, and let them cure before starting the other side is a good idea. Gotta think real hard on that one.

Oh yeah, you don't take the spacers out. You silicone them in. Maybe I didn't make that clear earlier. They stay there until 24 hours worth of curing, then you rip them out and fill the hole with silicone in a dosing syringe.

I'll be home tomorrow, and will post my "detail instructions". In the interim, I'm going to think about that jig/multi-day construction combination. Could be a winner!


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## plantbrain

Tape the bast**ds and you will not make a mess, use the square!
Take your time and allow it to dry 100%. Then, add as suggested, in stages.

I make the square first, then lower it to the bottom. 

A 48" length needs to be rather strong, 3/8" glass will not do.
It will bow without support in the center and maybe break.

The sides/bottom can be 3/8"
Most glass needs to be thicker.

I had them drill bulkhead holes for the larger tanks also. Built in over flowers look nicer than stuff in the tank IMO.
Adding a sponge to the teeth hides that from view also.

Have liberal use of clamps and check the angles a few times.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Jackfrost

I agree with plantbrain. 

I think the glass you selected will not strong enough for the tank. The problem here is the lack of a brace. I think you can build the tank, but you will need the braces.

As much as I hate being the engineer, let me demonstrate.

In a stationary fluid, the pressure is P=rho*g*h, where rho is the density of the fluid, g is Newton's gravitational constant, and h is the depth from the surface. 

If you really want to be correct, we should also add on one atmosphere's worth of pressure due to all the air on top of the water pressing down on it. 

The reason that's not important usually is that the same air pressure pushes on the side of the aquarium walls and the net force is just from the water. 

Still with me ? Good !

I'll do this in SI units and convert it in the end for you. The density of water rho is 1000 kg per cubic meter. g is 9.81 m/s**2, and h is any number from zero to 22 inches, the height of your tank which is also 0.5588 meter, depending on how far down the side we are. 

The width (W) is 48" or 1.2192 meter (I am not bothering with the thickness of the glass for this case), and the total height H of 22" is 0.5588 meter.

Hold on. Almost there !

The force on the front side of the aquarium is the area of the piece times the pressure where the specific piece is height wise. 

We'll think of little strips of height dh, width W, and depth h. The area of each strip is W*dh, and so the force on the strip is rho*g*h*W*dh.

For example, a 1" front panel strip at the bottom of the 22" high tank would have a pressure force of 169.759 Newtons or approx 38.17 pounds.

If we add all these up, we integrate over h, and get 0.5*rho*g*H*H*W.

Putting in the numbers, that's about 1867.354 newton = 419.7978806 pound-force

A total of 420 pound force pressing on the front panel. 

To better visualize this, imagine the front glass pane supported only on the ends with two saw horses, and a 420 pound man standing on top in the middle of the pane. Do you think your glass thickness will take that ?

The sides will obviously be less, but the front and back panels will take the brunt of it.

Your glass thickness is insufficient, and the lack of braces just further condemns this project.

:icon_frow 

Nick


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## scolley

Tom - Thanks for the good advice! Will follow, except the part about 3/8" glass. Clearly my diagrams are not clear. (Or maybe I need to go check my math???) The diagram is one using 1/2" glass, though that is not explicit in the diagram. But it should be evident if you add the dimensions up (maybe I should check!!!)

Nick - Hey Chemical Wizard! New moniker. Does that mean you can tell me where the calcium in my substrate went to? Just kidding, that's another thread...

I think 1/2 will work, which is what I've ordered. I must admit Nick, I can't follow your math, and am not even going to try. Especially since when I did, I think I found a flaw in your reasoning. That doesn't tell me that you are incorrect though. It seems to me that you know a lot more about this than I do. It tells me that there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand.  

So, instead of me understanding that (tall order), maybe if you could please take a look at the following threads (provided by John P I think), and tell me if you think 1/2" without braces will be sufficient after reading those. 'Cuz I think it will.

Simple link 

Complicated link 

Thanks folks. This is going to be fun!


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## rkundla

Jackfrost said:


> We'll think of little strips of height dh, width W, and depth h. The area of each strip is W*dh, and so the force on the strip is rho*g*h*W*dh.
> 
> If we add all these up, we integrate over h, and get 0.5*rho*g*H*H*W.


Must... resist... Calculus... integration... strips.... ARGH!!!! :eek5:

Thanks for the college flashback. :tongue:


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## IUnknown

If aquarium obsessed can make a 1/2" thick 75 gallon, I don't see why you couldn't.


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## scolley

IUnknown said:


> If aquarium obsessed can make a 1/2" thick 75 gallon, I don't see why you couldn't.


Bingo! It can be done!!!


Further, before I decided on 1/2" (12.7mm) as the appropriate thickness of a 48"L (1219mm) x 22"H (559mm) tank, I used the glass thickness calculator found to the right in this link to calculate safety factor and glass deflection.

That yielded a safety factor of 5.1, which is much higher than anything posted on that same page, or on this page too. And it also yielded a massively acceptable deflection of 0.24mm"! roud: 


And Nick, I put 3/8" (9.525mm) into the same calculator above, and got a safety factor of 2.8, and a deflection of 0.58. Both numbers appear to be on the low end - something you should probably brace as a safety precaution, but it should still work if you don't. They fall within normal operational parameters.


I do believe 3/8" would work, and those sites appear to back that up, even if it is a tad risky. But moving up to 1/2" calculates out to a pure slam dunk! 

Now my only problem is that it could be months before the glass is ready. Rats! :icon_cry:


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## plantbrain

scolley said:


> Tom - Thanks for the good advice! Will follow, except the part about 3/8" glass. Clearly my diagrams are not clear. (Or maybe I need to go check my math???) The diagram is one using 1/2" glass, though that is not explicit in the diagram. But it should be evident if you add the dimensions up (maybe I should check!!!)
> I think 1/2 will work, which is what I've ordered. I must admit Nick, I can't follow your math, and am not even going to try. Especially since when I did, I think I found a flaw in your reasoning. That doesn't tell me that you are incorrect though. It seems to me that you know a lot more about this than I do. It tells me that there is something about what you wrote that I don't understand.
> Thanks folks. This is going to be fun!


As Nick mathimatically pointed out, I will be right in the end.
I learned the hard way, you can see the 75 gal 48" long tank without a rim on the DFW site in the gallery under plant fest.

It's the gar tank. 

It has 3/8" glass and when I filled it, it bowed way too much.

I added a brace, the brace broke off!

So I added larger and more bracing!

I added water slowly.

3/8", from past experiences will not do on 48" !!!!!

3/8" is fine on my 24" 40 gal cubes

Math is great for modeling and predicting........experience will tell you more.
Unless it's tempered etc, I bet it'll bow like no tomorrow, it might not break, but it will at some point and it'll bow close to 1-2" outward.

Personally for these sizes, Acrylic is much better, lighter and since you spend this much, at least Acrylic can be buffed out if you scratch it.

Again, those larger panels=> 1/2"
The bottoms, sides can be less.

I ain't broke a tank yet and about 1/2 the larger tanks I have had over the years where broken freebie repair jobs!

I spent 20$ in glass and silicone and few hours for a 300-400$ tank.
But I'm careful about not screwing up, many aren't so careful.

But yes, 1/2 will be safe, get top beveled glass, it'll look nice and be nicer to work on.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## scolley

plantbrain said:


> It has 3/8" glass and when I filled it, it bowed way too much.


Understood Tom. But it didn't break, and you weren't comfortable until you braced it adequately. So I think your experience is bearing out the math I linked to earlier. Sure, experience absolutely trumps a formula. But for someone in the future that may not have the benefit of your experience, it could be good for them to know that formulas linked to earlier seem to work. But that your experience provides an excellent reference point...

_If you use the formulas linked to earlier, and you get a 2.8 Safety Factor (that's about what Tom would have had), it's gonna bow_ - more than you are going to like. _Shoot for a much higher factor_.

The discussion on the 3/8" glass is academic really, since I ordered 1/2". I should change the diagrams so that you don't have to do the math to realize that. It should be obvious.

I think I'll stick with 1/2" on the sides though. At approx. 18" wide, they are not a huge part of the expense, and I'm a bit nervous about the silicone. I'll sleep a lot easier with a 1/2" seam than a 3/8" one. Especially since I'm not planning on leaving much of a lip on the silicone. A seam of it 1/3 wider can only be a good thing.

Thanks for the tip on the bevel - already ordered! :wink:


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## scolley

I went and looked at Tom Barr's gar tank at his site, and it is EXACTLY what I want to do. If that's 3/8", then I feel OK about the 1/2".

It's exciting to see it setup and done!


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## New 2 fish

*Wow*

:icon_eek: Those pictures are great! Thanks for taking the time to put them up!!


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## scolley

Hey Marc, those are awesome! When you PM'd me about having those, well... I expected them to be good, but not _that _ good!
It is inspirational. Really. That is SO MUCH the look that I'm dying to achieve.

Lot's to be learned, or wondered about in these pics too...

It looks like he's using 1 MH lamp for every 2 feet of tank length.
It doesn't look like he's got CO2 injection going on in all of the tanks
I'm glad to finally see that he does use bulkhead overflows in some of his freshwater tanks. I've been suspecting that for a while, but couldn't prove it.
Your comment about "welding" is a bit disconcerting. What does he know that we don't about constructing these things?
It looks like he uses the width of the glass as the width of the gap between the top of the water, and the upper edge of the tank. Evenly thick visual on all 4 sides.
It also looks like that on most of his tanks, they are assembled with the glass of the sides being attached to the sides of the bottom piece, while in the larger tanks he sometimes has the sides resting on top of the bottom.
And for anyone that has been involved in the "rock cutting" discussions. One of the pics has a rock, cut to lay flush against the back wall, to make the whole scene appear larger.
Thanks for putting those up. These pics are so good, they deserve their own thread, with your name by it, and all the "stars" it gets. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them to stay here.  but they are so awesome, burying them in this thread seems like a waste. They deserve top billing somewhere - because like my 3 Amano books, and my CD of AGA entries, a link to these pics is going to be a permanent part of my inspirational reading. roud: 


PS - Marc did you know that you were wearing dark sneakers, with white laces, with either a stripe or maybe a "swoosh" down the side the day you took those pics?


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## John P.

GREAT pictures! I've seen many of ADA's HQ, but these are the best I've seen. Thanks for posting them.


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## csfish

Not only are Amano's tanks works of art, so are all the ADA's line of products! The glass intake and outflow pipes and CO2 diffusers are so discrete, you hardly notice them in each tank.

http://www.adaeurope.com/frami.html


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## Marc

scolley said:


> Thanks for putting those up. These pics are so good, they deserve their own thread, with your name by it, and all the "stars" it gets. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for them to stay here.  but they are so awesome, burying them in this thread seems like a waste. They deserve top billing somewhere - because like my 3 Amano books, and my CD of AGA entries, a link to these pics is going to be a permanent part of my inspirational reading. roud:
> 
> 
> PS - Marc did you know that you were wearing dark sneakers, with white laces, with either a stripe or maybe a "swoosh" down the side the day you took those pics?


HAHHA your are so funny- yes i was wearing dark sneakers! I didnt notice my reflection until you pointed that out. GREAT EYE! :tongue: 

Where do you think a good place on the forum i should post these pictures? 

To reply to some of your comments-

2) It may not look like there is CO2 in some tanks, but all are actually being fed. Only the tanks with sumps have the CO2 fed out of sight.

4) The tanks you see here are not welded! So that shouldnt discourage you from the project. I think his older tanks were... The tank builders did a great job, you could barely see any adhesive.

BTW Steve- Amano has a 4th book out. i just picked one up last week. I saw it on Amazon.com. Title is "Aquarium Plant Paradise" ISBN 0-7938-0518-X

A LFS guy told me why Amano puts the intake and return on the side-I wish i could have thought about it myself, the idea is so simple i almost pulled my hair out. He said that due to the reflection of the lights going into the tank and bouncing off the inner walls of the tank, it blocks light from the outside. For example-when you have an all clear glass tank, which you see above, If you were to put your intake or return on the back, which most of us do. You will very easily see the hoses and wires etc. If you stick the hoses on the side, when you look from the front of the tank, you would not see them. I dont know if i explained that well.... but its all due to light reflection and making the tanks look clean. (less clutter)


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## Marc

Hop said:


> Bored? Are you kidding these are greast pics. Thank goodness I finally got rid of dial up this week, I'd be loading this page for hours.


hehe maybe Scolley should put up a warning for the 56kers :tongue:


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## scolley

Marc said:


> hehe maybe Scolley should put up a warning for the 56kers :tongue:


Done.

Marc, I would like to go on-and-on about these tank pics, but I don't want to hijack my own thread. I'd put these in "General Planted Tank Discussion". Maybe a PM to a mod might help. I think Buck can do that kind of stuff.

I saw the shoes because I spent some quality time staring at your awesome pics.

Good news about the welding. Thanks.

Love to know more about those sumps though...

Will get the 4th Amano book! Thanks for the tip. And BTW I don't understand your relflected light explanation at all. Sorry. :icon_frow


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## BlueRam

scolley:

If you have'nt yet, read this:

http://www.wizardscave.com/aquarium.html


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## Marc

scolley said:


> Done.
> 
> Marc, I would like to go on-and-on about these tank pics, but I don't want to hijack my own thread. I'd put these in "General Planted Tank Discussion". Maybe a PM to a mod might help. I think Buck can do that kind of stuff.
> 
> I saw the shoes because I spent some quality time staring at your awesome pics.
> 
> Good news about the welding. Thanks.
> 
> Love to know more about those sumps though...
> 
> Will get the 4th Amano book! Thanks for the tip. And BTW I don't understand your relflected light explanation at all. Sorry. :icon_frow


Steve pictures have been moved to General Planted Tank Discussion 
Thank you for the complements on the pictures... roud: 

Try this- while looking into your tank from the front, wave your hand on either sides of the tank. See if you can try to see them. You cant right? because the light bounces of the glass and prevents you from seeing through.
Amano uses this idea on his tanks.


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## m.lemay

Maybe the photo album would be a better place. I could make them stickys.

Marcel


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## Betowess

Marc, What is the approximate size of one of those tanks... from the group that is all in a row - first picture after the shrimp macro. Thanks for sharing them too.


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## scolley

*What's going on here???*

FYI - anyone following this thread, and getting confused over discussions of pictures that aren't here, Marc posted some AWESOME  pics of his trip to ADA HQ in Japan. The pics have moved here.

Go take a look! You won't be sorry.

Me... I'm just flat out inspired, not to mention some of the great dialog this is going to promote. Way to go Marc! roud: 

And yeah Marc, I understand what you are talking about now, not seeing the equipment on the sides. Good idea! If you have a tank that isn't going to be seen from straight on most of the time (as mine is) that would be an excellent way to minimize the equipment that is visible (a topic near and dear to my heart!).

BlueRam - thanks! Great site. Will take a while to read it though. I suppose that is the kind of thing one does you you get REALLY serious about a tank.


----------



## RoseHawke

Thank you! And yes I was getting really confused! (Like I'm not already? :hihi: )


----------



## Marc

Steve- Getting back to your topic, besides silicone are there any other types off adhesive people in the industry use to build glass tanks?


----------



## scolley

Marc, while my knowledge is limited to what I've found on the Internet, your mention of "welding" is the only evidence I've ever seen of that. Though significantly different techniques and materials are apparently used in wood and glass tanks, and also obviously acrylic. But I assume that does not apply here.

If there are different sealants/adhesives, I hope someone in the know speaks up. If I don't hear anything, I'm going to assume "no", while I sit back and wait for the glass to be delivered.


----------



## IUnknown

Read through this, might find some things usefull,
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=390652


----------



## scolley

Thanks IUnknown. I've got to go re-read that site. I believe you (or someone) posted that link earlier. Or a link to the link. I didn't give it much time then because it was primarily acrylic work. But it looks like there is some good insight into the assembly principals and tools involved.

Thanks!


----------



## scolley

*Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrgh!!!!!*

Well, I'm back from nearly 3 weeks away, and I was fired up! I've got about 150 lbs of eco-complete on order, and I've got an a Sedona stand on order too. Even got an extra tube of silicone. Now all I need is the glass.

So I go to see my trusty glass fabricator, and they were really excited to see me. Seems that they had not one, but TWO orders of low iron glass (think Starphire but different brand name) to go out and they had just figured out this morning that there would be enough for my tank. Yahoo!!!

So they were showing me their drawings on where the cuts were going in the big sheets of glass for the other customer orders, and pulled out my specs and started showing me where my cuts would come from.

Everybody was happy until I said "_Hey, that order you're pointing to says 3/8" glass. Is that a mistake_?" It all went down hill from there.  

Seems they almost never do 1/2" work. And seems they didn't notice the 1/2" requirement on my specs - though it was pretty clear. So now it seems that the only way to get low iron glass locally is if I buy a whole sheet, or about 7,200 sq. inches of 1/2" glass. I didn't even bother to ask how much that was because they were charging $400 for only 3,800 sq. inches of 3/8" glass remnants. 

So, my low iron glass plan is ruined! I am so bummed.

Don't know what I'll do now. Gotta think on this a while. Sartin' to look like "the Big Clear Kahuna" might have to be "the Big Green Kahuna".

Bummer.


----------



## glass-gardens.com

A better way to verify squareness is to measure the two diagonals of the top and bottom rims, if they're equal, it's square. To check your framing square for accuracy, measure the diagonal from the 15" to 20" markings, if it's dead on, the length will be exactly 25".

I haven't found a framing square yet off the shelf that is really square although you may not notice it in the relatively short lengths of a standard framing square, I ended buying a stainless steel Shinwa, pricey at $50.00 but it's the best there is in terms of durability and accuracy in most circles.


----------



## IUnknown

Scolley,
What about going acrylic. You still get the clarity, and you could make the tank amano style. You would have no silicon on the edges, you would just have to be careful about scratching.


----------



## John P.

Too bad that acrylics have the bracing around the top!


----------



## scolley

'


IUnknown said:


> What about going acrylic.


I dunno. Like JohnP said, they all have bracing. If I was going to do bracing, I could probably just put it on a 3/8" glass tank, and carry on with the same old plans, and not have to worry about scratches. But I don't want a brace.

I've just got a major "jones" for that amano style tank look.

So, I think my best options are:

1) build a brace on a 3/8" low iron tank
2) stay braceless on a 1/2" "green" glass tank
3) get frustrated and impatient, save a bunch of money and go buy an oceanic

Right now I'm leaning toward option number 2. But I've got to admit, I was willing to go through all the trouble, expense, and risk to have what I saw as the "perfect" tank for me. I'm quite a bit less inclined to do this if I'm going to have to make compromises.

Sorry, I guess I'm just still bummed. I want my big, clear, rimless, glass tank!


----------



## Urkevitz

Could you do a smaller tank and use the 3/8 inch glass?


----------



## scolley

Could do, yes. But outside of having the stand on order, I'm went to a lot of work (with a lot of help from the forum - thanks!) to come to the conclusion that this was the ideal size for me right now. Nope. It's definitely a 75 plus.


----------



## BlueRam

scolley:

This might have been covered elsewhere but are all 5 sides the special glass?


----------



## John P.

BlueRam said:


> scolley:
> 
> This might have been covered elsewhere but are all 5 sides the special glass?


Good question. I'd go with regular glass on the back & bottom.


----------



## scolley

Nope, just the sides, not the bottom. Was looking to save a bit of money there, even if a bit of green tint would show.

Why do you ask Blueram?


----------



## scolley

John P's post came in while I was typing...

I want the back to be low iron because I'm planning on having it out someday, visible from all 4 sides. Think ADA. In fact, my current tank has no background. You just look right through it. I love the look. If your water is clear, it really shows.


----------



## BlueRam

scolley:

So with most expensive things you spend money on the parts that show. Ie if only the front is visible (built in?) then use one piece of special glass. If this tank is a room divider or such you would really want all sides to be the same. No use doing the bottom though as you mentioned. Either way it sounds like you are stuck with either a full sheet or outrageous shipping... 

Are you going to go "dutch" and 'frame' the tank so the substrate does not show?


----------



## BlueRam

Prior post answered....


----------



## glass-gardens.com

Here's a semi related question, I'm looking into building some long (6') display tanks, plwood design with glass fronts. I've read elsewhere that 1/4" plate is OK for tanks up to 18" in height as long as it's braced properly, but I don't see anything about limits on actual volume with this design.

I'm not an engineering major, so the question is, is it the height of the water column that creates the pressure or the volume in general. Example, would a tank 18" high and 4' X 4' exert significantly more pressure on the glass than one 18" high and 2' X 4' ?


----------



## Curare

Put simply it's the height of the water that excerts pressure on the seals.

Imagine this, 55 gallons of water could be held back with a piece of greaseproof paper, if it's only 1 inch deep, as the gravitational force (the head) on it is quite low.

Meanwhile the same 55 gallons in a vertical line (say in a 6 foot high tank, would blow the bottom seams and possibly the glass if not built correctly.

Clear as mud? hopefully clear as the glass


----------



## glass-gardens.com

That was my thought, but I wanted to be sure. Last thing I need is a major blowout on grand opening day.

Heh, zoning was the easy part.


----------



## IUnknown

What I was saying was getting an acrylic tank that didn't have a brace. Just get thicker acrylic sheets. I don't get why the same rules for glass don't apply for acrylic. So option four?

4) Customize an Amano style acrylic tank


----------



## scolley

Understood and agreed - Option 4! roud:


----------



## scolley

Just an update... The glass fab people were really sympathetic to my not being able to get glass as expected. They are currently trying to "work something out".

So while they do that I'm trying _real _ hard to be patient, hoping they think of a good way to get me nice glass on the cheap. More later...


----------



## AaronT

John P. said:


> Too bad that acrylics have the bracing around the top!


The bracing around the top is only necessary if you use the reccomended width of acrylic. If you go overkill it is my understanding that you can make a rimless acrylic tank. You can also make an acrylic tank with a euro-rim that is very thin and almost looks rimless. I believe the latter is how Gomer is having his custom tank built.


----------



## scolley

Yeah, I like that Eurotrim (Eurobrace? Eurorim? whatever...). Seen 'em. That's about as close to rimless as you are going to get. But with a eurotrim, or overbuilt with none, option 4 (acrylic) means having to do another prototype. I've already been through that with glass. I.e - more work, more experimentation.

I'll certainly look into it if glass falls through. Thanks.


----------



## scolley

Yahooooo! It's not option 1, 2, 3, or 4... It's back to the original plan! :bounce: 

They're buying the glass for me - special order, and honoring the original price quote!!!!!

Glass arriving in 2 weeks folks. Get ready for some finger crossing, silicone laying, 75 gallon, rimless clear tank making action! :biggrin:


----------



## Marc

roud: I probably wont need to say it because I know you will be taking lots of pictures!

BTW i got the problem fixed with the pH controller- i wasnt able to send you a PM your box was full :tongue:


----------



## RoseHawke

Congratulations! Now _that_'s what I call customer service ! roud:


----------



## scolley

Marc - glad you fixed the problem. D*mn, that was close!
Sorry about the PM, problem fixed now...


Cindy - That is customer service! Really nice people actually. It's clear, that since they don't order much of the 1/2" glass (the WORLD uses 3/8") they are having to do a special order for me. Even the nice lady who manages the front desk that called to let me know was floored at the price. So I'm not going to quote it here. But let's just say that going out an buying a regular Oceanic 75 would be a lot less!

But I'm not complaining. It's a chance to have a "amano" type tank at less than having to re-fi my house. Then again, I might screw it up! :hihi: 


Everyone - The people that are supplying the glass are a bit unique. They work in glass larger than 3/8", deal regularly in low-iron glass (clear, not green) and are good at glass fabrication (machine beveling edges, not just "Fred" with a belt sander). And it appears that plate glass ships fairly well, and not "too" expensive. So if you are considering doing something similar, as in larger than a 55g (only 3/8" required, so buy it locally) clear rimless tank, these guys might be worth a call. With shipping you may still find it a reasonable deal. But I'll wait on getting their prices for you until we all see whether I make a royal mess of this attempt!


----------



## Marc

*Glass*

I like the idea of working with glass because if you mess up you can just carefully take a blade scrape the silicone off and start over.


----------



## scolley

Whoaaa!

Figured out yesterday that all the work I've done on minimum silicone thickness was a wild goose chase - total waste of time! I've documented the concern here. This was kindly confirmed by Tom Barr at his site here (I guess membership has its privileges!). Any of you that have been following this thread, and the prior one, know Tom's got a good bit of experience in this space. Thanks Tom!

So now I've got to rethink my whole set of plans for building. But I'll tell you, this really simplifies things a lot! My confidence level goes way up with this.

So it means I'll be trying different way of doing this out on the big tank for the first time. But with this significant reduction in complexity, I'm not too concerned.

Will keep you posted when the glass comes in!


----------



## Noz2Glass

Steve,

I've been lurking here for a bit. I've also been quite interested in your various threads regarding the new tank as I'm putting together a 125 or 150 with no equipment in the tank (not building the tank myself!). Thanks for the info so far.

Do the new seam dimensions require a different sized bottom piece?

Bob


----------



## bigpow

Marc said:


> I like the idea of working with glass because if you mess up you can just carefully take a blade scrape the silicone off and start over.


I wish it was that easy
I had to do it several times when a few years back... my dad & I built around 13 glass tanks and everynow & then they'd leak & I had to scrape all the silicon away.

But that was not as bad as the smell of the silicon permeating through out the house!


----------



## scolley

Noz2Glass said:


> I've been lurking here for a bit. I've also been quite interested in your various threads regarding the new tank as I'm putting together a 125 or 150 with no equipment in the tank.


Hey Bob - Welcome! Lurk no more!

There are a number of people here that are working (publicly) on the whole limited visible equipment thing. Good to have another! And at 125 or 150, that should look GREAT. Glad to help indirectly. You've just got to pay back by sharing what you learn. roud: 

The new seam dimensions will indeed require some different sizings, but I think I'll change the side panel, not the bottom. That way the tank volume will remain the same.




Bigpow said:


> my dad & I built around 13 glass tanks


That's a lot of tanks! I trust you'll be providing some significant guidance? Please. :wink:

And scraping silicone, man that's the worst.


----------



## nater3

As for scraping silicone, i found this great stuff at the hardware store called. "silicone-b-gone."

Put it on for a while and let it soak, come back in 30 mins or so and it rubs away. Makes things ALOT easier.


----------



## scolley

nater3 said:


> ..."silicone-b-gone." come back in 30 mins or so and it rubs away.


Man! I owe you for that one! Now I can clean up my trial tank!

I must have tried 20 caustic, nasty products to get silicone off. None of them worked. But I'll give that a shot. Thanks!


----------



## Noz2Glass

Thanks for the kind words. So much info can be obtained going through all the threads here it makes ones head spin.
I might have to give the silicone-b-gone a try for my sump. A lfs is practically giving away used 29 gal. tanks that developed leaks and I'm thinking of using one for my sump. After fixing the leak of course. I figure if I redo a seam at a time it'll be much easier.

Bob


----------



## scolley

Hey Bob. If you try it and can confirm nater3's recommendation, please post that here.

Though there is head-spinning information on PT, along with dis-information, rumor, and opinions, blah blah blah, it's all about the _critical mass _ of information, along with _agreement of multiple sources _ that helps us separate the wheat from the chaff. Pls let us know. I certainly will after I try it!

Thanks nater3! My 10yr old is chomping at the bit for the test tank I built. But with the total lack of masking, along with my naive belief that silicone was easily cleaned up (ha ha ha!) I really made a mess of an otherwise nice tank.

silicone-b-gone might just be what I need to make one 10 yr old kid really happy! Will let you know!


----------



## scolley

*It can be done - more evidence*

As I wait for my glass to be delivered, PJAN has posted more evidence that this will work in Marc's ADA thread here. Or at least close. I'm planning on a tank an inch or so higher (the most critical dimension), but that tank is a 6 inches wider than I'm planning. Would love to get some details on construction technique. PJAN?


----------



## kzr750r1

scolley said:


> As I wait for my glass to be delivered, PJAN has posted more evidence that this will work in Marc's ADA thread here. Or at least close. I'm planning on a tank an inch or so higher (the most critical dimension), but that tank is a 6 inches wider than I'm planning. Would love to get some details on construction technique. PJAN?


Both of these posts it seems have generated alot of interest in DIY rimmless tanks. At least for me... roud: 

PJAN? Did you take any in progress shots? I too was intending on working out the lilly/intake. Have the glass now just need the gusto to try. 

IUnknown had some built that were killer...Wonder if he has any more? :icon_roll


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> As I wait for my glass to be delivered, PJAN has posted more evidence that this will work in Marc's ADA thread here. Or at least close. I'm planning on a tank an inch or so higher (the most critical dimension), but that tank is a 6 inches wider than I'm planning. Would love to get some details on construction technique. PJAN?


To all : I did not discover this thread till now. Awfully planning and thinking, Scolly roud: 
As asked : some technical details of my all-glass tank.

I did not make it myself, but I talked to the local manufacturer of tanks and explained the wishes.
The main problem was no rims / frames to strengthen the front and back panel.
For 50 cm height (20 inches) 12 mm (1/2 inch) thick glass was needed.

My tank is now full of water : the front panel is slightly bowing , approx 2 mm and that is no problem at all for the glass. Well, so far the water is where it should :icon_bigg 

The glass is made of normal glass (green) and not optical white. I must say it is not very visible that the glass is "green" and with lights on it is gone.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN. 2 mm? That's about what I would expect. I believe, if I recall right, I was planning on my 22" high tank bowing (or "deflecting") about 2.5mm, so it sounds like your measurements are right on target.

That's a pretty precise measurement though. How did you measure that?

And kzr750r1, keep posted. The glass should be in any day now! And as for the lilies, I know for a _fact _that you better PM IUnkown quick if you want in on that lilly action. I'm certainly glad I did. roud:


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> Thanks PJAN. 2 mm? That's about what I would expect. I believe, if I recall right, I was planning on my 22" high tank bowing (or "deflecting") about 2.5mm, so it sounds like your measurements are right on target.
> 
> That's a pretty precise measurement though. How did you measure that?


I just took a large "measurement level tool (...english?? :icon_roll ) and put it on top of the tank and looked down in the middle.
It bowed 2 mm.
I scratched my head but it should be safe. I have seen worse cases of bowing even with rimms.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## PJAN

kzr750r1 said:


> Both of these posts it seems have generated alot of interest in DIY rimmless tanks. At least for me... roud:
> 
> PJAN? Did you take any in progress shots? I too was intending on working out the lilly/intake. Have the glass now just need the gusto to try.
> 
> IUnknown had some built that were killer...Wonder if he has any more? :icon_roll


Oeps, did not see your post.

I will make shots tomorrow perhaps. 
I made the intake / out from acryl and not glass. 

I had some reasons for this. I will explain it in my thread.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## RoseHawke

PJAN said:


> I just took a large "measurement level tool (...english?? :icon_roll ) and put it on top of the tank and looked down in the middle.
> It bowed 2 mm.
> I scratched my head but it should be safe. I have seen worse cases of bowing even with rimms.
> 
> Gr. PJAN


This?











It's just called a "level." If you want to be technical, it's a "spirit level," or sometimes a "bubble level." They all mean the same thing.


----------



## PJAN

Ah, a level. Yes. Thank you.

Scolly's tank is 22" and mine tank is 20" .
With 12.7 mm glass 22" should also be no problem.
I can say to Scolly that my tank manufacturer said it should work with 12 mm glass up to 60 cm height ( 23 / 24 ").
Also he mentioned that a shorter length would be easier and 120 cm (48") length was the maximumum he guaranteed.
So, Scolly : don't worry it will work...

But be carefully with putting the glass together.
I made some tanks myself and some tips :

- clean the glueing area with tri-chloor-something ( very aggressive stuff to remove grease, dirt etc.) , and during the work never touch the silicon area or clean it before using the silicon.

- In holland we have a special device for making a perfect interface or seam. It's a half-round tool and used when they silicon the bathing room.

- put a piece of brown paper ( what they use to wrap around a book e.g.) on the bottom, with the bottom-glas on top of it. The silicon pressed outside will glue to the paper and not your working area. After the tank is built, you can cut outside the tank the paper and leave the rest under the glass. It's also on my new tank.

- I don't know your cabinet, but if you are placing your tank all free and you don't wanna see tempex or so : I used a piece of thin wrapping foam (they are using this stuff to wrap new tv's in etc.). It's enough and invisible.

Well, perhaps you already did know this stuff.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN. Pretty much doing all that, with a few exceptions:

1) Masking tape instead of brown paper.
2) Acetone instead of "tri-cloor... " whatever :wink: 
3) Not using the seam tool. Planing on using my thumb. But if you have a pic of the tool, I'd love to see it.
4) Using Styrofoam instead of wrapping foam. Maybe I should check that out. roud: Styrofoam is pretty thick.

Thanks for the tips. And thanks for passing along what your tank maker said! I wouldn't say I'm scared. But given the cost of this clear glass, and the mess 75g will make in my (wife's) family room, I'm definitely apprehensive. So reassurances are appreciated! :wink:


----------



## RoseHawke

I think this is what PJAN is referring to:










There's also something somewhat similar that's all plastic.

FWIW, I've never been able to get a good "finish" on 100% silicone (kitchen & bathroom caulk) using just a damp finger. Unless I dipped said finger in acetone first. Probably h*ll on my finger but I got a good joint! I figure it's just like _very _strong fingernail polish remover :tongue: .


----------



## PJAN

Thanks Cindy. Something like that.
Check the DIY-markets, Scolly. They must have something like that.
It is definetively better than your thumb : spreadingforce is constant, your not messing things up. In the corners you can use your thumb ofcourse.
Try it out when glueing two small pieces of glass together with silicon.

Styrofoam ( we call it tempex overhere ) is pretty thick. The wrapping foam is really enough if the top of your cabinet is 100% equal. Normally they are.
I can tell you : the bigger the tanks overhere, the thinner styrofoam they use and they use more and more this thin wrapping foam. Styrofoam can be really stiff and if you calculate the weight / square inch, that isn't much. The styrofoam will not flatten at all and therefore it is not suitable for at least big tanks. If you get my drift?
And they place even the big tanks direct on the wood too.
Also my tank is put on thin wrapping foam because styrofoam was very visible.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Jdinh04

Wow, 7 pages of just words but no pictures. I wanna see!!!!


----------



## PJAN

Scolly!!!!!!!!!!

Update please. Has the glass arrived? 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Sorry folks. No glass yet. I'm exercising patience.

I'm using my spare time in the interim to work our the contents and placement of everything in the stand. Which is fum for me - makes the waiting on the glass a bit more tolerable. In fact, I really should finish this before I can assemble the tank anyway...

Since the tank is being drilled with bulkheads (5 of them), I'll have plumping hanging down into the stand all over the place. And due to my own silly tendency to go really high tech with the equipment, there's going to be a lot of stuff down there. Lots of chance for gear hanging down to get in the way of all that equipment. And 1/2 of it is still under my 20g, 1/8 in boxes, 1/8 ordered, and 1/4 only plans for future functionality. 

So I really need to finish my layout planning on paper anyway - to know the bulkhead holes are in the right places - so I can confirm the drilling spots for the glass company - so they can finish with my glass.

I'll finish that within a week I think. Then I'll be breathing down the necks of the glass company until they cough up that glass!


----------



## PJAN

Sounds good! I like high tech.
Patience....yeah. Ok, keep my fingers crossed.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Man, I'm gonna go nuts!  I call the glass company to find out about the delay on the glass, and the response was "Hey look at this order form! Who forgot to place this order? This doesn't have the bosses signature. We'll call you back."

Man! I can't take it.

Tom Barr sent me note the other day telling me to save my money on the ultra clear glass. I thought it was too late. Now I'm about ready to do that. I'm going to give it the evening to think about it, and unless I have a real change of heart, I'm going to call them tomorrow and tell them to forget it, just get me regular float glass. :frown: I can't take the waiting.


----------



## PJAN

Oeps ! They forgot?
Well, I have float glass and it isn't bad. I had this ultra clear glass at the big tank, which is clearer, but not by much. When the ligths are on, I don't notice that the tank now is from normal glass.

Eh, one thing. I noticed drilling five holes ( bulkheads) ?
I had several bulkheads in the former big tank and I found them annoying at least.
The substrate was at several places not very "plantable" and the bulkheads seemed everytime to be "in the way" when I wanted to aquascape with wood or rocks.
I always had to "work around" these things, which was not ok.
I definiately decided to use NO drilling holes in the tank, just to have all the bottom surface to work on. 
I have only 2 transparent tubes hanging in the water and I am glad I decided to this.
Think about it...

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJan. I'm setting it up so that the bulkheads can be easily capped off inside the tank, and disconnected in the cabinet, so switching to a traditional "over the tank rim" in/out flow will be easy.

In fact, I'm planing on initially having two bulkheads in use for outflows, three unused, and making the returns in the traditional "over the rim" manner. The unused bulkheads (after much thought) will be capped off inside the tank, either 1/2" (12 mm) from the bottom, or with risers bringing them 1 & 1/2" from the bottom. That will still leave at least either 1 & 1/2" or 2 & 1/2 inches of substrate over them.

Underneath, I'm setting things up so that all 5 will have ball valves to shut them off, with the three unused ones capped off. Total protrusion under the tank for the unused bulkheads will be 4 & 1/2" in a cabinet with 26" vertical interior space.

For the two bulkheads that are in use, they will protrude an additional 7". 

Here's a top view of the stand interior, showing bulkheads holes.









And a front view showing protrusion.









These diagrams aren't really well enough documented and rendered to fully explain everything well. But it's meaningful to me, and helpful for planning. But at least it shows the position and impact of the bulkheads in the cabinet.

But you've got the experience. If based on what I'm saying, you still think I'm making a mistake, please let me know. Thanks.


----------



## PJAN

Well, based on my experiences you have to look at the future : that's your aquascape  

Let's take a look at the focus-lines. Area's where you will possible place rock or wood. Now or in the feature.










Bulkhead 2 + 3 are a direct hit in the main focus area and will interfere with the aquascape. Not usable unless you work with tubes under the gravel.

Bulkhead 1 is placed to much to the front, taking in account you will leave open space left or right in the aquascape.

Bulkhead 4 + 5 are also somewhat in the dangerzone : wood will often go from the left corner to the front ( or right corner ).
Alternative are marked in (4) and (5) : bulkheads a bit further to the back.

So, gonna look at the rest of the drawings.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## PJAN

The tank isn't really bigger than mine (= 90 gallons).
Why using two filter canisters while the Eheim pro II is really enough?
I even slowed down my Eheim : flowrate was too high for the plants and they were waving in the stream.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## PJAN

Another experience :

I hooked up an Aquamedic 1000 CO2 reactor and a UV after the Eheim pro.
The flowrate was almost the same than without these equipment ( I measured this).
The trick is to use normal soft hoses and not glued PVS material with 90 degrees angles.
The 90 degrees angles will stop the flow with at least 30%. More angles = more loss.
If you gonna use PVC, you better use "soft angles" : they are more round and will not slow down the flowrate.
My former tank had (too) many 90 degrees angles (PVC) and this ment a big loss in flowrate.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## BlueRam

Scolley:

The funniest thing I have seen today is your electronic drip hood. What, planning for potential failure such that the damage is mitigated! Sounds like you have though out every detail.


----------



## IUnknown

Yeah, you might want to post a poll to get more feedback on the bulkheads. Might be good for reef tanks, but less appealing for planted tanks. It ruins the resale value of the tank (that tank is going to be worth money if you ever want to sell it), I've got a bunch of 20 gallon tanks that have bulkhead fittings that make them worthless. Whats the reservoir for? You are not doing a wet/dry type of filter are you? I've always had a better luck with water clarity with canister filters. Down the road you might get crazy about having your water crystal clear. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## scolley

IUnknown said:


> I've got a bunch of 20 gallon tanks that have bulkhead fittings that make them worthless.


I've never been too smart with money. So I don't want to set any precedents now that I'm not able to live up to. :tongue: So I'm not really worried about resale. Thanks though.



IUnknown said:


> Whats the reservoir for?


Man, I know I should not have posted those pics! Only trouble could come out of posting something unfinished, and poorly documented...

Everything in those pics that has a dotted line outline is not planned in the short term, just something I'm planning space for later. In the case of the reservoir, I'm hoping to set up a water replenishment system some time in the reasonable future, and something to hold the water will be required. This will be tough in a closed system, with nothing going in the tank. I think one of these may help when the time comes.




BlueRam said:


> The funniest thing I have seen today is your electronic drip hood.


Hey come on! That can't be such a bad idea can it? I'm hoping to put all electronics on the right side, and under the drip hood. My stand is "open topped", only supporting the tank around the edges, so splashes that get between sides and the lip of the stand have to run down somewhere. Just seemed like just good planning.  




PJAN said:


> My former tank had (too) many 90 degrees angles (PVC) and this meant a big loss in flow rate.


Thanks for the tip. But this will have fewer elbows than I do now, and they all will be driven by the same Ecco that's is driving that flow now. Long story... Take a look at this thread for the full details. I'm running parallel flows, and all the in-line filtration will be running in the same Ecco filter that runs it now, with less elbow. This thread has a pic of the current setup, elbows and all, and the flow is amazingly fine.




PJAN said:


> Why using two filter canisters while the Eheim pro II is really enough?


Now THAT might be a mistake. Anyone what to buy a brand new Eheim Pro II?




PJAN said:


> Bulkhead 2 + 3 are a direct hit in the main focus area and...


I've got a thread on the whole topic of bulkhead hole placement here. Maybe it's worth a look.

But bottom line, it's all a compromise so that the tank can accommodate any number of 'scapes - not optimized for any particular scape, but flexible for many.

2 & 3 are set to accommodate a future design where the tank has both long sides (maybe all 4) exposed, with plumbing in the middle.

1 & 4 are placed with the assumption that the tank might be heavily scaped to the left. But pulling them closer to the left wall might be beneficial.

I like the suggestion on 5. Thanks! As for doing the same with 4, I gotta think about that one, given the multiple 'scaping possibilities that would come into play with.

Much to consider. Thanks for the diagram!


But now my BIG problem, I need to think about whether I'm going to cancel that expensive ultra-clear glass while I still can. Hmmm....


----------



## AaronT

I have a question for you. If I read your diagram right you have DIY CO2 in your plans yes? Why on earth spend the money on such a nice tank and then not spring for pressurized? Perhaps, take the money saved by getting float glass instead and put it towards a good system. Just my $0.02.


----------



## AaronT

RoseHawke said:


> FWIW, I've never been able to get a good "finish" on 100% silicone (kitchen & bathroom caulk) using just a damp finger. Unless I dipped said finger in acetone first. Probably h*ll on my finger but I got a good joint! I figure it's just like _very _strong fingernail polish remover :tongue: .


Just a word of caution here. I do believe the proper silicone to use is the window and door silicone. The kitchen and bath silicone often contains antifungal agents that aren't good for the fishies.


----------



## scolley

grandmasterofpool said:



> If I read your diagram right you have DIY CO2 in your plans yes?


That question is my punishment for posting a diagram that wasn't ready for public review! I only put that diagram up for PJAN to understand where the bulkheads were, relative to the tank and equipment below. But given the lack of clarity in the diagram, it's a fair q.

That DIY CO2 is just my DIY diffuser. If you look close you'll see a large "CO2" item, which is a pressurized 5lb tank and a Milwaukee reg. You'll also see a "pH Controller" which is the SMS 122. :icon_wink 





grandmasterofpool said:


> ...kitchen and bath silicone often contains antifungal agents that aren't good for the fishies.


Unless I take a recent recommendation for DOW 795 Silicone, I plan to use All-Glass Aquarium's "100% Silicone Aquarium Sealant" product.


----------



## SCMurphy

There is something about bulkheads and canister filters in combination that just scares me, I can't put my finger on it but I'll be interested to hear how this turns out.


----------



## scolley

SCMurphy said:


> There is something about bulkheads and canister filters in combination that just scares me, I can't put my finger on it but I'll be interested to hear how this turns out.


Hey, it's clearly not done a lot. My ME friend tells me there should be no issues. But let's say there are return flow issues, I'll just get a pump to augment the outflow. And if it just doesn't work for some other reason, I'll just turn the ball valves all the way off, cap 'em off, and use the tank and canisters in the "normal" configuration.

Time will tell. Pls let me know if you figure out what this mysterious problem is.


----------



## AaronT

Okay, I thought maybe the other part was the reactor for CO2 and the DIY was the source. Good to know I was wrong. :tongue: 



scolley said:


> Unless I take a recent recommendation for DOW 795 Silicone, I plan to use All-Glass Aquarium's "100% Silicone Aquarium Sealant" product.


FYI: The AGA Aquarium silicone is the exact same stuff as GE Silicone I "window and door" part # GE012A. They repackage it and sell it to All-Glass, which is why it now says that it is unsafe for aquarium use. I understand if you want to ere on the side of caution with that decision though.


----------



## scolley

grandmasterofpool said:


> They repackage it and sell it to All-Glass, which is why it now says that it is unsafe for aquarium use.


 :eek5: Don't you mean "_safe _ for aquarium use"?

Why would they call a product that they resell to be re-branded specifically for aquarium use as "_unsafe_" for aquariums? Unless maybe they are engaged in some sort of non-compete relationship with AGA, and they just do that so aquarium use purchases will go to AGA.


----------



## Dood Lee

scolley said:


> Unless maybe they are engaged in some sort of non-compete relationship with AGA, and they just do that so aquarium use purchases will go to AGA.



You are correct.


----------



## AaronT

scolley said:


> :eek5: Don't you mean "_safe _ for aquarium use"?
> 
> Why would they call a product that they resell to be re-branded specifically for aquarium use as "_unsafe_" for aquariums? Unless maybe they are engaged in some sort of non-compete relationship with AGA, and they just do that so aquarium use purchases will go to AGA.


Bingo! mmmm....capitalism. :tongue:


----------



## scolley

Have adjusted my bulkhead hole locations based on PJAN's suggestions. Will post changes here when I get the chance.

As to the tank, tomorrow should tell the tale. Seems the clear glass had been ordered, but too many people with too much money for really expensive showers in the area are drying up the local supply of ultra clear glass - spring time is the season for home improvement. The glass people aren't getting their shipments. Or so they say...

One is scheduled for tomorrow, and depending on what's delivered, I may pull the plug on the ultra clear glass. I want that tank! Don't want to wait any more.


----------



## PJAN

Well, keep us updated??

Y're only two months waiting for the glass :icon_roll 
I hope it's there tomorrow.

Gr.PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Yaaa hooooooo!*

:bounce: :bounce: They got the glass!!! :bounce: :bounce: 

No more postin'. I 'm done talkin'. I've gotta start makin' the Big Clear Kahuna!


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> :bounce: :bounce: They got the glass!!! :bounce: :bounce:
> 
> No more postin'. I 'm done talkin'. I've gotta start makin' the Big Clear Kahuna!


Well, seems you're gonna catch up with me.

You have been waiting for glass while I am still waiting for my super-pendant ( in order, feel the pain :icon_conf ) .

Ok, glue the thing together and I'llwait impatient for the first picture.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Marc

ahhh time to get dirty! :tongue:


----------



## scolley

Picked up most of the glass today! Optiwhite brand - crystal clear! The edges are beautiful polished. Wow. If I don't screw this up it's gonna be great!

The bottom pieces, the one regular float glass piece, is having a few days delay to have the bulkhead holes drilled. Seems they don't have a 1 & 1/2" dual sided drill bit, and will have to do it elsewhere. I didn't realize it, but apparently drilling from a single side causes what they called "scalloping" on the exit edge. Drilling in from both side simultaneously eliminates this. 

But I don't care! I got the important stuff, this is just a few more days. 

In the interim I've ordered something that might let me test for leaks without having to fully assemble the bulkhead and stand. Here's a link.

Yahoo! I got the clear glass!


----------



## hoffboy

I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we're on pins and needles!


----------



## scolley

Thanks HB. I shouldn't have said anything. It's just that after all this time, all this planning... I _excited_!

Realistically though, it's going to be a while. Thursday before the bottom comes back so no way to assemble before this weekend. But there are many factors that will slow this down...

1) I've got to finish reinforcing the stand, and laying all the interior scaffolding to attach the wires, plumbing and hardware to. Est. 2 weeks.

2) I've got to go on a biz trip - another 2 weeks.

3) I'm taking the kids to Disney after the biz trip - another week.

4) Having a life (gets in the way of the hobby) will probably impose a delay of another week from spending all free time in the aforementioned 2+2+1 weeks. That will cost another week.

So all told, in reality, it could be 6 weeks before I'm ready to build the tank. Doing that, plus posting pics, could mean no pics or real results for 6 to 8 weeks. Sorry. Reality imposes once again.

But hey, I've got a major Jones to get this done. I'll do everything I can do to squeeze that time frame down a bit! If I screw this up, it would be _cruel _ to make you folks wait that long to get a good chuckle!


----------



## scolley

Picked up the bottom pane today. Holey Moley! Five holes cost a BUNCH! I could have bought a 55g for what it wound up costing to drill those bulkhead holes.

A word to the wise...


----------



## scolley

*Update...*

I've finished reinforcing the stand, laying all the interior scaffolding to attach the wires, plumbing and hardware to. Also finished the excessively complex (and large) inflow and outflow manifolds.

Did all the masking for the three largest pieces of glass. Took quite a few hours!  

Between stand, plumbing, and glass work, a lot of time is getting chewed up - taking time away from the family.

So I've packed it up all nice and neat, and am going to take a break from tank building until we return from vacation the 2nd week in May. 


PS - I 'm taking pics as I go. I think it is going to be pretty cool. It's just _way _ too time consuming!


----------



## scolley

*Pics! - but no Tank pics...*

It's been a while since I posed anything here, so I figured a few pics were in order. I still haven't started assembling the glass, though is it is completely masked, both side of each sheet. If it isn't supposed to be covered in silicone, it's got masking tape on it! Learned that lesson big time with the test tank. Worth the effort up front...

The first pic is the Sedona stand. I didn't like the hardware, so I replaced it with some stuff that called a bit less attention to itself. I want people looking at the fish and plants, not the knobs/handles on the tank. You can also see on this pic that the stand arrived as the open top variety. I wasn't expecting this, and had to go by a piece of oak plywood to fit the opening, and painstakingly drill holes in all five spots that I planned on installing the bulkheads in the bottom of the tank. Sorry, that doesn't show in this pic.









Next is the outflow manifold. I could have as many as 4 fluid loops in this overly complex system, and this will hopefully accommodate them all. As you can see, it merges into 2 outflows that can be either directed to bulkheads in the bottom of the tank (which I do not intend to do initially due to limitations it imposes on the aquascape) or to a regular "over the side" type of set up.









The next pic is the inflow manifold. It is configured to have two large inflows from bulkhead in the bottom of the tank (which is my intent for the first setup), which flows out to up to 4 fluid loops. You can see places where I've installed fittings that will lock down on an inserted in-lin pH probe, and an inserted in-line temp probe. In the pic I've also already installed an in-line grounding probe into the water flow to satisfy my paranoia about stray current in the water, given the silly amount of processing it is going through!









Next you can see this dual manifold monstrosity kind of interlocking to save space, and mounted into the stand. The pics are kind of small, but maybe you can see some of the reinforcing bracing I've put into the stand, along with a whole lot of "L" brackets. I think the Sedona stand is pretty flimsy, and I've spent a lot of time trying to strengthen it up. Also obvious is the rear panel I installed to to attach a lot of electronic to, like my SMS 122 and such. And it might not show, but the inflow and outflow manifolds needed to occupy pretty much the same space within the stand, so they had to be built so that they nestle into each other, without getting in the way of each other. Lot's of discarded PVC involved in solving that problem!

















Next two pics are a view from the top of the stand. It's not really obvious in these shots, but there are three recessed halogen spots that I've put in the stand to illuminate it on the inside to make maintenance easier. And you might also be able to see some of the wooden slats I've installed running side-to-side, high up in that stand. Some of them are higher than others, though that's probably not obvious. The higher ones are intended to have supports hanging down from them to accommodate the electrical wires, and the lower ones will have supports hanging down to accommodate water tubing. The electrical supports are higher up for the obvious reason of minimizing bad problems from dripping water in the hoses (if any!). And it doesn't show in this shot, but high up on the far right side, over the electrical plugs, is a wide rubber lip, made from a garage door floor seal to redirect any water that might drip down onto the electrical stuff.

















Oh yeah, almost forgot! The Sedona stand had drawers, and just was not going to work with all the stuff I'm looking to cram under this tank, or with the 5 bulkheads connections that will be hanging down. So I installed the drawer facings directly to the front of the stand. It looks like there are drawers from the front, but aren't.

I suppose that's it for now... hope to start assembling a tank soon!


----------



## BlueRam

Great work.

Looks like you have clenched your PVC merit badge...


----------



## Marc

Nice!
Ive never built anything like that- just wondering- if you plan on leak testing it? and if so how?


----------



## g8wayg8r

This project is shaping up nicely.

I do understand how hard it is manage a serious hobby in between life episodes. Projects always seem to go in fits and starts and I'm sure you will be relieved and proud of your accomplishment. Can't wait to see the end product.


----------



## scolley

BlueRam said:


> Looks like you have clenched your PVC merit badge...


LOL - Thanks Blueram. I've never done PVC work at all until I started DIY stuff for my existing tank, so I'm sure there are quality issues. But frankly, I will be surprised if it leaks. The manifolds are over-built. If the flow slows, it won't be because of them. I consulted often with a mechanical engineering friend to sanity check design changes.



Marc said:


> just wondering- if you plan on leak testing it?


The manifolds - no. The tank, yes. Leak testing plan as follows:

1) Tank test - Move newly built tank and stand outside of house. Level stand. Install rubber expansion plugs in the manifold holes in the bottom of the tank (these are cool, got them here.) Fill tank and wait a day or too, monitoring for leaks. Drain and either fix leak (then repeat) or move to next test.

2) Test manifolds - With tank/stand outside and leveled, install manifolds on tank. (These have already been built with a large ball valve installed on each.) Close ball valves. Fill tank, monitor for leaks. If leaks, fix as required. When no leaks, test check valves and outflow manifold.

3) Test Outflow manifold and check valves - I built large check valves to go in-line, as the last point before water enters the outflow manifolds. No pics of those. That way I can still have water flowing, but can remove any line from that outflow manifold that I like, provided I've shut off the corresponding ball valve for that line on the inflow manifold. Attach these check valves to the outflow manifold. Attach outflows plumbing, with lily pipes going into the tank. Manually create a siphon on one of the two lines exiting the outflow manifold and attach it (while the water is gushing!) to the manifold. This should fill the manifold, and the check valves leading it to it. Monitor and check for leaks, fixing as required.

4) Test Inflow system and inflow manifolds - With the manifold ball valves still off, attach two lengths of 3/4" flexible pvc hose to a manifolds rigs under the tank, and attach the other end to the inflow manifold. These are pvc screw connection. Shut off all the inflow manifold ball valves, open the two appropriate bulkhead ball valves. Check for leaks, fixing as required.

I'll do no Indoor testing really. Once the above is done, if successful, the tank, manifolds, manifolds, check valves, and inflow and outflow hoses will all be leak tested. Then it will be time to move the tank inside and begin setting things up for real! Too cool, and too exciting!




g8wayg8r said:


> I do understand how hard it is manage a serious hobby in between life episodes. Projects always seem to go in fits and starts..


Yup, I'm learning that is _so _ true. Not surprisingly my wife and kids have a view on that too. But with good reason really, between time researching on the internet, planning and documenting plans, buying all the parts, stand building and modification, DIY plumbing building, and glass masking, there as been a _whole _ lot of time that has gone into this so far. So, yup, "fits and starts" it will be until complete.

Hopefully the tank will be up within a month. Not fully aquascaped certainly, but a running tank inside the house.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> Hopefully the tank will be up within a month. Not fully aquascaped certainly, but a running tank inside the house.


Ahhh, you're getting close !

It is very relaxing to grow plants first and think about the aquascape later.
I don't know if you are planning to use wood or rock ?

Got some tips for you, if yes.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

PJAN said:


> It is very relaxing to grow plants first and think about the aquascape later.Gr. PJAN


I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do that PJAN. I've got some preliminary plans of an aquascape that call for both possible use of terraced substrate, and a divided soil - light colored sand in the unplanted areas, and Ecocomplete where the plants are. It's not just one big blanket of the same stuff along the bottom, so I'm not sure I can put any substrate down to begin planting until I _know _ what I want.

And yes, I plan on using wood right now. Not rock. And my ability to find the "right" pieces of wood will determine whether I can build the aquascape I want. Right now I'm having a _real _ hard time finding what I want. :icon_sad:


----------



## PJAN

Oww, that's something different. I have a big "blanket of the same stuff" on the bottom :icon_roll .
Full of plants right now.
I did have a masterplan for the aquascape but indeed, it was hard too find good wood (and some rock). I knew it would cost me time too find some good stuff.
Hopefully you will be able to find soon good wood.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*More plumbing pics*

Earlier I referenced the check valves. Some pretty cranking check valves turned out to be needed due to the outflow manifold. If one of the lines into the outflow manifold doesn't have pressurized water flowing into it, a reverse flow will occur - and who knows what that will do.  So, each line into the outflow has a 3/4" check valve, though the line internal diameters are set at 1/2". Here's a pic.










And most of the 5 bulkheads will not go into service immediately. So in this pic you can see the 3/4" bulkhead gear, with shutoff valve attached. But they are capped off on both the top and the bottom. Between 2 caps and a ball valve, I'm not anticipating "unanticipated flow"!










And here's one of the bulkhead pieces that should go into immediate service as tank outflows. Water will come out through the bottom through these, and back in over the side with lily pipes. I'll use two of them as intakes, which go into the two 3/4" inlets in the inflow manifolds from previous pics. The 1" clear plastic strainer should prevent may things from entering. I'm hoping that my universal use of at least 3/4" PVC will keep small stuff from clogging things. The flexible PVC can unscrew from the bulkhead for placement on another bulkhead if a change in 'scape requires movement of the inflow strainers in the tank.


----------



## scolley

*Big Problem - Consequences Unknown*

So. I get back from a biz trip, kind of excited about putting the tank together. Going to Disney World in a few days, but hey, who says I can't put a panel or four together first? So this evening I inspect everything, checking the two or three linear miles (or so it seems) of precision masking, wiping down the edges to be siliconed with acetone. And I get to the last piece, a side piece, and it looks green. _Real _ green! I pull off some masking tape (great hesitation to do that, at this point), and sure enough, it IS green.

I look at the other side panel, the front and the back panels, pulling carefully laid down masking off each. They are all crystal clear... what I paid the macho denero for. And I check the bottom, the one piece that I specified (in writing) should be regular glass to keep the price down. Sure enough, it's clear too.

I feel like Linda Blair in the Exorcist, with my head ready to start spinning! To get this far and have the last piece wrong! Wow!:angryfire 

Given the significant expense of the smallest quantity that can be ordered of this glass, I see no alternative that will not be very expensive for the glass fabricators. I'll just cross my fingers, say my prayers, _calm down_, and see what happens tomorrow when I go talk with the glass people...


----------



## John P.

That would chap my a$$, too.


----------



## snowman

scolley said:


> I'll just cross my fingers, say my prayers, _calm down_, and see what happens tomorrow when I go "chat" with the glass people...


I think you should start calm...but if that doesn't work you can always "Chat" a little louder!


----------



## scolley

*Karma*

You know, sometimes good things happen to me that I really don't think I deserve. This pane of green glass should have been a big problem, because the glass fabricators don't deal with 1/2" low iron glass that much. So this should take time to order more glass, aggravation as I steadfastly resolve that I'm not paying to have it replaced, regardless of their expense, and more time while I wait for it to be cut.

Well, not so.

I called, and they had a small remnant of the same glass in stock! I brought the green glass in, and they stopped their current work, cut, beveled, and polished a new piece on the spot! No questions asked, apologies for the mix-up. Wow!

There's a life lesson in here somewhere for me. At the very least I need to stop expecting the worst. Got a bit more masking to do now, finishing the edge cleaning, and grab that silicone gun!


----------



## BlueRam

Cool, you now have low iron-clear glass to look at the bottom of the roots!

So good for you checking before sealing and good for them for taking care of it.


----------



## scolley

BlueRam said:


> Cool, you now have low iron-clear glass to look at the bottom of the roots!


LOL! If it works, it will be an "_Excessively Clear_, DIY All Glass Tank, AGA style, rimless, frameless"!

FYI - They didn't want me to swap the bottom out for green glass. It's full of holes. :hihi:


----------



## PJAN

I was following this problem.... oh, boy... but now we are expecting some pics of the progress, Steve !

Glue !

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Aborted Start*

I've decided I'm putting 1 pane on a day, using these tools...

















And here is a look at some of the excessive "precision spaced" masking...

















In calculating the exact widths of the glass, I could have just a little excess size on the bottom pane (small fractions of an inch), depending on how tight the silicone seams compress down. So I decided that if the bottom may not be perfectly flush, I want that to be in the back. Not the front.

The order I will be putting the panes on top of the bottom is 1 long pane (front or back), 1 side, the next side, and than the last long pane. Since I want the front guarenteed flush with the bottom, I'll have to start with the front pane.  Hmmm... better get it right the first time...

So last night, I did a trial run with my son. I knew last night was my last chance to get the process started before I go to Disney World in a few days, which is immediately followed by another biz trip.

We practiced lifting the heavy pane and gently "rocking" it at an angle onto the bottom (to eleminate air gaps in the silicone). Then holding it steady while I secure the clamps and check angles... No good. Poor guy just could not keep the glass from sliding around. It _is _ just too heavy for a kid.

So, I aborted. Sorry. I've been waiting too long to mess it up now.

So I'll re-think the process of putting the first pane on, and find a slightly stronger assembly team. But that means that I won't be putting it all together for a couple of weeks.


----------



## BlueRam

I was rereading "Advanced Aquarist Guide" by Ghadilly published in 1969.

On tank construction:

"Stainless steel frames probably provide the final answer for the man who wants nothing but the best."


----------



## scolley

Hey Blueram, thanks for raining on my parade! LOL!

I guess I'm just stupid. (it's easy for me to laugh now... we still don't know the what the results will be!) :tongue:

Then again, when I'm finished, mabye it will be time for an updated version. And what about "the woman that wants nothing but the best"?


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Then again, when I'm finished, mabye it will be time for an updated version. And what about "the woman that wants nothing but the best"?


Well now, a diamond studded, platinum framed tank seem a bit excessive, doesn't it? :icon_lol:


----------



## scolley

Bill - I must say, that you are _just causing trouble_... and there are certain people that I hope _never _ see this thread! :tongue:


----------



## Jackfrost

Keep the faith Scolley

We are waitting and learning from your efforts ! roud: 

Nick


----------



## scolley

Thanks Nick! From your posts, and many others, it has been real clear that this will be pushing the envelope. And I'm happy with that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with with the prospect of p*ssing away money. And my wife _definately _ would not be if she knew! But I really want this. And if this _does work_, I'll feel like I've contributed to the advancement of the hobby.

And if it doesn't... well I'll have also contributed, just not in the way I might have hoped.  

I'm traveling at the moment. But in a week or two, we'll all know!

Thanks for the encouragement. If I find myself soon sitting in the middle of a bunch of soaking wet crystal clear glass, your words will be of great comfort as I take another sip from my dripping wet beer can. :tongue:


----------



## BlueRam

Pushing the envelope is a great think I do think you are moving the bar (a good thing)! Sometimes it is helpful to look at the past to know where we are going? (I just could not come up with the joke or wisdom to tie it together) Did you see the one with a submerged light bulb as heater?

But when I saw that I though about your tank...

BTW, do you have pictures of your test tank? I was gifted a smaller version with chopsticks in the corners that I would like to rebuild. If not, please take some of the big one in progress!


----------



## scolley

Blueram - did not see the one about the lightbulb. Was it in-line? I'm a big fan of in-line stuff. LOL!

My test tank was not too much of a test, per se. I just needed to separate the Internet "wheat from the chaff", and see if I could create a tank from silicone and glass. It is painfully and humbly documented here. My primary lessons were:

1) Silicon will hold glass together against the pressure of a good number of vertical inches of water. (I was testing the calcs of the spreadsheet I linked to in the "test tank" thread.)
2) And for GOODNESS SAKE, don't let silicone get ANYWHERE that you don't want it to be FOREVER!

Good lessons really. Especially when prominent Internet sources told a different story....

As for the tank, there _are no_ pictures. Masked off glass is it. It's all waiting for me to get home and start assembling. And that won't be for a week or so.

But believe me, after all this waiting, the delay after getting home will be about 15 minutes. Maybe 20 since I've waited so long and am being so cautious. :wink:


----------



## Buck

Never mind the glass...Im still floored by the plumbing ! roud:


----------



## PJAN

Buck said:


> Never mind the glass...Im still floored by the plumbing ! roud:


 :icon_bigg :icon_bigg Me too !

Still wondering what will happen when Scolley is on holiday and asking if the neighbour could clean the dirty filter.... :icon_conf I think he's in shock for several days ( and calling a professional plumber perhaps) roud: 

Gr.PJAN


----------



## cprroy73

Very interesting project scolley. I can't wait to see the finished product. 
Will you build me one next? :icon_bigg . Seriously good luck with it.


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks. I'm not building anything next. For anyone. :tongue: The wife's about had it with this one! That's why I'm going all out now. I could see this would be my last shot for quite a while.

Buck, I've not been completely forthcoming about everything in them thar plummin'. There's still a real interesting twist or two yet to be fully revealed around those pipes. I definately haven't discussed all of my plans.

Goodness knows if any of it will actually work though. But I'll be sure an share pics and lessons learned either way.


----------



## Betowess

Wow Steve, I hadn't been following this thread except when you first started it. You could write a book on this baby. It will be a wonderful sight to see, I'm sure. roud:


----------



## scolley

*Zero hour - Preparations*

Ready to go now... everything ready. The pic below is just a test, no silicone applied a "dry run" (yuk yuk yuk) as it were.

I used an iron patio table to use as a base because the clamps need to hang down a good bit below the bottom piece. This little round table allowed both sturdy support, and would not get in the way of the clamps. I draped a towel over it just so the iron table wouldn't scratch the glass. 

You can see the short, silver cabinet builder's corner clamps in each corner, and two orange 25" J clamps to hold the side snug down on the bottom, squeezing out excess silicone.

Also you can just see the fact that I had to use wooden shims under the table legs to get it level. I verified the level with at carpenters bubble level.









This test showed that the cabinet clamps do not hold the glass perfectly square, but very, very close. When I do this for real I'll have to hold a carpenters square in the inside against the side and bottom, and pull the side and bottom together just a hair closer together with masking tape. You'll see it in the pic of the 1st side, when I do that.

After I took things back apart after this dry run, I made sure to use acetone to clean off the glass edges that were due to be siliconed.

And this is another shot at the masking. You can see it's not perfect, but I think it will still create some really nice silicone seams. The tape comes right up to the edge of the bevel. So the bevel, when both sides are touching, will fill with silicone, making the seam appear just a touch wider than it really is. But hopefully with a nice smooth edge.










I decided that I will use my 13 year old son to help with this after all. But instead of having him steady the glass (which did not work well in our trial run), I'll hold the glass in place while he puts on the clamps.

I've taped a sequence of events up on the wall for my son and I to read, to make sure we are real clear as to the order of things. It is: 

Tools - _are they all here?_
Silicone - _apply it_
Glass - _place it on the bottom_
Corner - _clean one just enough for corner clamp_
Clamp - _loosely attach to the clean corner_
Corner - _clean the other just enough for corner clamp_
Clamp - _loosely apply the next one_
Align - _check that edges are flush_
Clamps - _tighten the corner clamps_
Big Clamps - _put on the big J clamps and tighten_
Excess - _wipe away excess silicone_
Square - _put square in inside corner to ensure square and duct tape as required_

We practiced this twice. Now nothing to do, but to do it! :wink:


----------



## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

I am just curious : how will you get the silicon between the glass?

Normally we put silicon on the glas ( say bottom) and than squeeze the other piece on it so it can fill completely. Than we put another extra stroke (?? in english...) in the inside, adjust the standing glass exactly 90 degrees angle and finish it nicely round.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Front side done!*

Good question PJAN. Just too late unfortunately...

I put a big, almost 1/2" wide (excessive really), bead along the bottom and lowered the side onto it at a 45 degree angle so one edge hit the silicone bead first. Then lowered it down to rest on the bottom, still at a 45 degree angle. I then tilted it up to a 90 degree angle (right angle), hopefully forcing out any air in the process. HUGE amounts of silicone squeezed out. We clamped it down, cleaned it up, and used a square and duct tape to achieve an d*mn near perfect right angle. Here it is...










Doesn't look like much, but _more _ to follow tomorrow. :smile:

BTW - if anyone is wondering about the funky arrows and initials on the masking tape, it has a reason. The edge work was not perfect (good, but not perfect) and upon inspection of the glass, I made decisions like "OK, this piece will be the front, but this edge is better and should face outside..." and such. The initials just help me remember what piece of glass I'm looking at (front vs. back, inside vs. outside, up vs. down) and which way I thought it should point. The brown paper is just because I was running low on the more expensive colored masking tape.


----------



## PinkRasbora

Wow that is so awsome. Very nice. how long are you going to let it dry? just over night?


----------



## scolley

Yup, just overnight. Tomorrow I'll put on at least one side, maybe two.

Nater3 has an excellent example of a really nicely trimmed all glass tank in this thread. In it he explains that he pulled up the masking tape before the silicone dried.

I suspect this is by far the best way to go, if you can. But I've got so much masking tape that I think pulling up just some of it will be a mess in itself. So, I believe I'll wait until it is all dry, then carefully cut the masked edges with a razor and pull up the tape. After this much work, another hour of tedious work is meaningless.


----------



## PJAN

Scolly,

ehh... anyway.... I remember now that the glass is pushed against the bottom, right?

But looking good man roud: 

You make me nervous when I see such a project.... wish I could give you a hand.

So one concerning note :

The heavy front-glass ("I.F." standing up) is very heavy and will break the silicon if you release the clamps and push the glass a little.
After glueing another side-glass, the whole thing has more stability. So please be carefull if you have any plans to remove the clamps e.g. 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the warning PJAN. I'll only be taking 1 corner clamp off to put the first side on. That will leave the other corner clamp, 2 j-clamps, and 2 straps of duct tape. Hopefully that, plus being _real _ careful, will be good enough.


----------



## scolley

*Right side on*

Had some stupid problems with the next piece, the first side piece.

I only have two of the corner clamps (kind of expensive), and needed to take one off to put the side on. So I had intended to use that corner piece to hold the side at right angles to the bottom - no can do! If you look at the pic closely, you can see that the left edge (on the bottom, where is was to go, stands off from the left edge of the side - so the corner clamp, if put on that bottom left corner, won't reach the side piece. Duh!

So I moved it to the top corner, and put in three J-clamps on the side. But without that corner clamp where I had intended it, and with the horizontal J-clamp pressing down on the side pane - it kept trying to slide off. So I assume that the bottom edge of the side pane is not at perfect right angles to the side of that pane of glass. There was a good bit of sliding going on with this piece, and if it leaks or blows-out here I think we will know why.

I pulled up a lot of the edge masking on the first piece after it had cured for about 18 hours. Wow. Awesome edges. And did not require a razor - just pulled right up. I'll get pics. I'm trying not to get too excited about it, because that's just the first edge, and on the bottom at that. Still lots of time for me to mess edges up. But if they do all look like this - Wow! I've never seen such nice edge work on an aquarium. Sounds like a boast, but it's true. I suppose spending hours masking can indeed pay off. You'd have to see it!


----------



## scolley

*both short sides...*


----------



## PJAN

Looking very good !!!!Tank is looking huge on the picture.

Last piece of glass... first put silicon on it and push it from 45 degree angle to 90 degree angle. Forgive me my concern...

Normally you have to wait 5 - 7 days before putting water in it.

Good luck!

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks. But it's only a 75g, not a 90g (or 120g?) like yours PJAN. But with 1/2" glass I think it could have been.

Thanks for the cautions. I've heard 2 days delay before a water test. I don't think I can wait 7. Hopefully I'll get the last piece on tomorrow. And then do the water test next Saturday - a 5 day delay.

Too cool. Boy, I really hope this thing doesn't pop.


----------



## PJAN

My tank is has more width. Perhaps the height of your tank gives the "huge" illusion.

5 days is fine. 2 days is very short in my opinion ( and experience ).

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Buck

I give you two thumbs up for the patience factor Steve, I wouldnt have survived the masking job ! Lookin good , Ive got my fingers crossed for your big test but I would suggest listening to PJAN on the time thing , why rush now ? :icon_frow


----------



## scolley

Yes. Thanks Buck... "everything in it's season", and "everything worth doing, is worth doing right". Years of bonsai as a hobby, and a gray hair or two (well earned!) have taught me a smattering of patience.

Thank gawd I'm not 22 any more - I was too impulsive and impatient - I'd have screwed this up by now for sure! Age has it's drawbacks, but it has it's benefits too. roud: 

PS - No offense to you young 'uns out there. I've got some pretty good memories from 22! But I was in more of a hurry back then...


----------



## scolley

*And then there were 4 sides...*


----------



## Anthony

All I can say is wow. It takes guts to trust yourself that much to build something like that. Envious indeed!


----------



## scolley

Thanks Anthony, it's either guts or _stupidity_.

It's too bad I spoke so soon about how nice the edges looked. I've been trying to peel back the masking at around the 24 hour mark. And while the first edge I peeled back was particularly nice, they all haven't looked as good so far.

Oceanic tanks definitely have better edges. But mine are definitely smaller. So hopefully there will be a lower visual impact. That was the objective anyway.

The corner braces I've used at each top corner have had a negative impact on the edges too. In the assembly process I've always put down silicone, applied the glass, given it a good press, wipe a bit of silicone out of the top corners where the corner braces go, then put them on.

Only after the corner braces were on (to hold the glass steady), would I put on the other clamps, and crank them down. And only then would I wipe away excess silicone - after it had all been squeezed out. Problem is of course, this squeezed a bit more out of the top corners too. A bummer really, since that is potentially the most visible portion of the tank.

I can clean it up, but it still won't look quite as good as the rest of the trim.


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> I can clean it up, but it still won't look quite as good as the rest of the trim.


I think when all is said and done, you'll be the only person who will look at the completed tank and be able to find fault with anything. roud: 

Can't wait to see it fully 'scaped!


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> Can't wait to see it fully 'scaped!


Whoaaaa Bill! I don't think I've made any commitments about that! LOL

A decent looking scape will take 6 months or so, wouldn't you think? I'm just trying to get it all working. The 'scape comes later. :wink: 

I learned three things today...
1) The longer masking take stays on glass, the harder it is to get it to come off clean.
2) Expensive masking tape comes off cleaner than cheap masking tape.
3) If you spend enough time with a razor blade in your hand, you are going to cut yourself.  

More later... things are shaping up!


----------



## PJAN

Hey Steve!!!!!!!!!

Man, what a nice present ! 
Get the tape of and clean the thing !

6 months for an aquascape?? No,no, 6 weeks should be enough.

Clean the the glass ( masking tape residues ) with aceton (??) = nail polish remover.
Easy.

Show us the tank ! roud: 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Tank's coming soon. Gotta pull the clamps off, remove the rest of the masking, acetone off all the residue, do a bit of cosmetic trimming, and then snap some pics. Soon.

I'm getting anxious for the water test this weekend. This thing looks really cool!


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> I think when all is said and done, you'll be the only person who will look at the completed tank and be able to find fault with anything.


Bill's bringing up a good point. If you back up a few feet, it's looking pretty darn good. Though of course, that doesn't mean it will hold water.  

But it does have a few cosmetic, and possibly physical flaws, which I need to get pics of so we can learn from them. Question:


_Do you want to see pics of the tank? Or close-ups of the flaws_?​
Not a lot of free time over the next few days, so your opinions will make the difference on where I spend my free time, and the subsequent photo posts. Thanks!


----------



## joan

As much as I'd _really_ like to see pics of the tank, I think close-ups of the flaws would be the better learning experience for all of us. I mean I really can't wait to see the completed tank, this thing looks amazing, but patience is the best lesson of all for an undertaking like this, so make us be patient and have the better learning experience by looking at the flaws first. :wink: Besides, then we can tell you that they don't look anywhere near as bad as you're thinking they are. roud:


----------



## scolley

*Warts...*

OK - We'll take a look at the warts first, and hopefully learn from it. I need to warn you up front, these are close ups, and the glass and the silicone still needs a good bit of clean up. But it is a stark, honest look at the cosmetics (and maybe worse!) of doing this yourself.

Putting all this in context first, it's worth understanding the pre-work that went into this, and my own ability. The pre-work included:

1) detail discussions and precise, written instructions to the glass cutters. It included allowable tolerances, or variance, in the precision of their glass cutting.
2) Elaborate edge masking. This even included constructing a small tool to slide along glass edges as a guide for a consistent distance from edges. That did not apply when the edge was a bevel line, which was just masked as close to the line as my bi-focals would let me.
3) All of this was done after creating a small "throw away" test tank as a learning/practice exercise.
4) Every step was planned, and explicitly written out. Nothing was rushed or unplanned.

As for my ability, I am pretty good with my hands and have an eye for detail IMO. I spent my childhood as an avid model builder (including some nice ones I'd like to think) everything from plastic cars to remote controlled planes from balsa and tissue. And a good bit of my adulthood I spent doing bonsai work. So I would like to think I'm reasonably good with my hands, but I've never worked silicon before.

So, what did all that preparation and potential aptitude yield? Take a look...

This first pic is a seam, and siliconed pane of glass, the way it is supposed to look. This is the first side I put on, the right one, up against the the front pane. This is from the outside of the tank, right front edge. The edge is consistent, the silicone is smoothly adhered between the two panes of glass.









This is a similar seam, but on the left front edge. Clearly something happened to allow air bubbles to get into the joint between the panes. I assume this will not appreciably weaken the ability of the glass to hold together, but a bubble like this from one edge to the other would almost certainly leak. Possible trouble here. And it doesn't look so hot either.

Also you can see the edge of the silicone is not quite as smooth as the first side. I don't know why. I suspect, but do not know, that the first side was cured a bit more (24+ hours) when I pulled up the masking.









Now this is interesting. You can see a repeat of the bubble problem, but you can also see that one pane of glass is just a shade higher than the other. As you've seen from my posts, I had some pretty cranking J-clamps on these sides, pushing them down onto the bottom. So IMO this is not due to inconsistent silicone widths between the respective panes and the bottom. No, I think this is just a error in the glass cutting.









Further down, on that same problem seam we see this. Do you see the oval smudge like mark? That's between the panes. The marks above it are more bubbles, but this is something that goes from edge to edge. Doesn't look like a bubble though. Will have to watch this one.

This pane is the back pane, as it attaches to the right side. This was the most difficult pane because of all the silicone that had to be laid down. The front - 1 long seam. Each side - 2 short seams. But the back - 1 long seam and 2 short seams. This problem seam is the first one out of the silicone gun, and was probably skimming over by the time I pressed the back pane onto the 3 sided tank.









This is an inside view of the back left seam. All the other shots were from the outside of the tank. This is inside. I'm showing this to provide contrast to what we find in the next shot, at the top of the seam.









At the top of that seam you can see the problems that those corner clamps caused. Having to quickly wipe up excess silicone, then put on the clamp before all the other j-clams were cranked down caused excess silicone to squeeze out, and it was not easy to get to for wiping away.

Also, you can see another "interesting" thing. The back overhangs the 
back left side by a couple of millimeters. It looks its worst from this shot, but all the same it's there. It was quite a surprise when I rested the back pane on the bottom and tilted it up. I was shocked when the right and left edges did not perfectly align to the right and left edges of the tank. I had to make a quick decision, and decided to make it flush on the right side, and have any problem on the left side. In its first location, the left side of the tank will be very close to a wall.









I'll clean it all up, and it will look much better than these "shocking" close-ups. And even now, it looks much better from just a couple of feet back. So cosmetically, it should be OK. 

But there are flaws. I don't think any compromise the structural integrity of the tank, but some might cause leaks. I think that could be easily fixed with extra silicone on the inside edges. But I hope that's not required.

We'll see in a few days!


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Also, you can see another "interesting" thing. The back overhangs the back left side by a couple of millimeters.


Probably another reason why the commercial manufacturers put the rims on. 

Honestly though, once it's all set up with plants and lights the flaws will melt away into the background. It's pretty hard to fixate on a 1/2" wide silicone seam when there's 4' of planted tank in front of you. And unless you had an ADA style island stand with hanging pendant lights you'l never even see the raised edge of that back panel.

Face it, you done good! roud:


----------



## scolley

Thanks Bill. That's very kind. But we still don't know if it is going to hold water!

But I'm in complete agreement on your comments. And frankly, not even cleaned up yet, but if I take a couple of steps back my overall visual impression is just "Wow!".

My 13 yr old son, a tough audience to be sure, used the word "awesome". I feel pretty good about that, since complementing Dad is not high on his priority list. It was just a gut reaction - sometimes the best kind!

The flaws I've detailed so people can learn from my experience.


----------



## PJAN

Ahhhh... looking ok to me Scolly.

My tank has also a few bubbles in the silicon and the manufacturer told me that it was normal and safe.
But I have only a few at the bottom.
With water in it, the silicon will hardly be visible. 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## cprroy73

Scolley that looks like great fun. Maybe I missed it but this tank will have no center top brace correct? That why the thicker glass? Have you ordered the lights yet.


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN. Feel better now...

cprroy73 - 1/2" to be "certain" that 22" high would work with no brace or rim. If I'd have settled for 18" high, I might have been able to go with the standard 3/8" - much cheaper, much easier to get.

No lights yet. Still weighing options, and hoping for a bit more innovation and price competition on the T5 front.


----------



## cprroy73

Cool, Those tek lights are nice. They sell them at petsolutions I believe. I am sure there are other places that sell them too.


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## m.lemay

Steve the tank is looking awesome. Man I'd love to be there when you're filling that sucker with water. And let me know when you're ready to start filling that sucker with plants and I'll start putting stuff aside for you. 

If you pull this off, I might require your assistance on a similar project. 48" x 24" x 20" tall. 

Have you kept tabs on the materials cost?


Marcel


----------



## scolley

Thanks Marcel! I'd be glad to help - bigger is better! Frankly, I'm scared to count up the cost (I assume you mean the tank alone). 

The good news is I've bought, or already had, stuff you can use. The clamps ($100+ right there), a nice level, a right angle, and you can flat out have my can of acetone. But that still leaves glass ($$$), two tubes of silicone, several rolls of masking tape (the expensive Scotch brand - trust me), and more razor blades than you can shake a stick at. With the dimensions you are talking about, I think you are on the cusp of the 3/8" vs. 1/2" mark. And that will make a very big difference in the cost of your glass.

Just figure out how many square feet you need, and call a glass fab and tell them you need 5 pieces cut and beveled. See what they say. PM me if you want the number of the people I used - bit of a drive for you, but they can do it.

I really don't know where I'll be headed with the 'scape yet. I'm trying real hard to get a few very specific pieces of driftwood, and not having much success. And my layout absolutely depends on that driftwood, and the plant choices depend on the layout. As do the fish. So a lot's riding on that driftwood. But if you are willing to give up plants to just help the tank get established - even if they aren't necessarily in the final layout - then I'm your man! Thanks!


----------



## scolley

OK, it could be a couple of days before I get the tank cleaned up... a lot of work. So, even though this will slightly mess up the chronological order of the pics, here are a couple of tank pics before I took the clamps and straps off.



















Can't wait to get this puppy cleaned up and wet! :tongue:


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Can't wait to get this puppy cleaned up and wet! :tongue:


Just don't get too excited and forget to plug the bulkhead holes first! :icon_lol:


----------



## PJAN

Steve !

It's looking very very good on the pictures ! No flaws visible.
Jee, what's the glass clear!

Maybe you should change the glass in your windows too ?

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Never ask the wife...*

So, after painstaking trimming, cleaning and glass buffing, I lead my wife into the room...

"So Honey, what do you think?"

"... about what?"

"The tank!"

"... Oh. Well, I think... I think..."

"Yeah?..."

"I _think _ it better not _leak _ on my floor!"​









That's what I get for asking!


----------



## bharada

That is one gorgeous looking tank. So when does it get taken outside for the test fill?


----------



## scolley

Thanks! I just hope it doesn't leak. I did get plugs for the bulkhead holes though. I got them here, and already tried them out for size. Should work.

Gonna haul it out Saturday, put it on the oak board (that fits in the stand with bulkhead holes drilled), shim it to level it, and start filling it up!

But before I do that I'll be taping some toothpicks to the outer edges of the top middle of the two long sides (front and back). I plan to not only watch for leaks as it fills, but to stop periodically and measure for "deflection", or the amount of bowing in the glass.

I've got to go back and look up the exact amount, but as I calculated it months ago, it should be small. The greatest thing is, the measured deflection will be direct indicator of the safety margin. So, I'm hoping for low deflection.

Can't wait!


----------



## Buck

Drumroll pleeeeeze !!! :icon_bigg 

Dont worry bro if it leaks it will still make a beautiful terrarium ! :tongue:


----------



## scolley

If this thing pops, it is my _sincere _ hope that it pops _loud enough _ to be heard all the way over in Lebanon!

So, it is my _expectation _ that if, upon this holiday weekend, you find yourself Buck on Saturday afternoon, saying "Hey, what was that loud bursting sound?", that you will at that exact moment, lift your beer and say "Here's to my silly friend in Westport. Between courage and foolishness, it's hard to say which he had the greater portion of!"

... or something like that!


----------



## Marc

NIIICE!

So is there a noticeable difference with the low iron glass?


----------



## scolley

Marc said:


> NIIICE!
> 
> So is there a noticeable difference with the low iron glass?


I think that's a definite YES Marc. It's pretty darn clear. But the overriding question will always be - is it worth the cost?

I got the glass at a pretty good price, so I'm not sure the equation will be the same for everybody.

This is a good time to mention an interesting phenomenon though. When you look at the glass edges, you do see color. Looking through a few feet of glass has got to have _some _ color. Funny thing is though. That edge color is not always the same. Usually it's blue, but sometimes it's quite green. Haven't figured that one out yet.


----------



## Curare

*bows down*

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!!!!


Scolley, looks like a lovely peice of glasswork you've done there.

Awesome.

like. 

truly.

Makes me all jealous.


----------



## scolley

Yuk yuk yuk. Thanks Curare! LOL :icon_bigg 

Let's just see if this puppy pops this weekend (or not). Then there'll be something to talk about!

(Actually I'm a lot more worried about a slow leak than the glass cracking...)

PS - Don't be _jealous_. Make all this posting and picture taking worth my time, and go out and do it _yourself_! roud: When people start to do that, _then _ I've done something I can feel good about.


----------



## John P.

Wow, Steve, I missed your latest pics somehow. Looks phenomenal. 

Your wife sounds just like mine. Nevermind that you did a great job!


----------



## nemesis1337

hey scolley
just wondering...are the glass panels being held only by silicone?
when the water fills up, will the silicone be strong enough to hold in place? i've touched silicone before and it feels like pretty weak material
or did you put some other stuff to hold the glass panels?


----------



## kzr750r1

Impressive... I have to stop looking at this thread! I don't have the time to undertake such a project. 

Thanks for sharing your experiance.

BTW All wives/girlfriends will have the same reaction but hopefully they appriciate that were working on a home hobby and not doing 16 oz curls at the bar every night. It's hard for people without the initial interest to get jazzed. Now that my 8 month old daughter is fasinated with the tank my lady enjoys it more.

Keep up the awsome work were all waiting for the plumming progress.


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the comments and support folks. Saturday will tell the tale...

nemesis1337 - if silicone won't hold a tank together, I'm going to have some really dramatic pictures on Sunday, and one helluva expensive failed science project.

As things get closer to showtime, I find that I've got to start figuring out the logistics of moving many of the components on my 20g to the bigger tank without killing all the plants and fish in the process. I'd like to keep the 20 as a low tech tank, but I'm not sure I can afford the time to keep up multiple tanks, as so many of you do.

And BTW, my wife is a good doobie. Don't get me wrong. I love her to death - even if she does leap to the practical side of things. Someone has too, because I am clearly in need of a bit of adult supervision. IMO this whole project is evidence of that! :tongue:


----------



## PJAN

Hello Steve, 

YEAH ! SHOWTIME !

The glass won't crack. The "bow" should be 2 mm's. In my tank the glass only bows that little. Your tank is a little bit higher, but it should be more or less the same.

The biggest problem is the silicon on the bottom where the "bow" is. The bottom-corners are held by the bottom and side glass. So that is a strong point. The weakest point is in the middle - on the bottom.

Fill it up 1/2 way and investigate any leaks and go on further. I know your concerns....
But after 2 months I feel pretty confident about the strenght of my tank.

Good luck ! SHOWTIME !

Gr. PJAN


----------



## John P.

Steve, it might be worth buying "the screamer" or a similar device in case of leakage. Peace of mind, ya know? They sell them at Lowe's & Home Depot, too, in addition to online.


----------



## AlexPerez

I think Steve already has a screamer if that tank leaks... The wife!


----------



## kzr750r1

I'm most interested in the diflection measurments. The design and construction practices in this thread are priceless.


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> The design and construction practices in this thread are priceless.


kzr750r1 - I built the tank because I wanted it. But I've gone to the trouble to document the process so the community could learn. Your comment has made that all worthwhile. A very genuine, and sincere "Thank you". roud: 

As for the screamer, I'm already planning on that being in my next on-line order. Thanks.

And as for the deflection, I've got to go look up the numbers I was anticipating. I'll post them _before_ I measure it. I think it would worthwhile to get that into the permanent record here, so everyone can know whether those assumptions proved valid.

BTW - I happen to own an expensive, devastatingly accurate and precise ruler. So the deflection measurements should be pretty good.


----------



## nemesis1337

scolley said:


> Thanks for the comments and support folks. Saturday will tell the tale...
> 
> nemesis1337 - if silicone won't hold a tank together, I'm going to have some really dramatic pictures on Sunday, and one helluva expensive failed science project.
> 
> As things get closer to showtime, I find that I've got to start figuring out the logistics of moving many of the components on my 20g to the bigger tank without killing all the plants and fish in the process. I'd like to keep the 20 as a low tech tank, but I'm not sure I can afford the time to keep up multiple tanks, as so many of you do.
> 
> And BTW, my wife is a good doobie. Don't get me wrong. I love her to death - even if she does leap to the practical side of things. Someone has too, because I am clearly in need of a bit of adult supervision. IMO this whole project is evidence of that! :tongue:


Since AGA has done it before, assuming you used the same adhesive material for the glass. I think it should be okay. either way, good luck with your project although i doubt you need it :wink:


----------



## scolley

*Deflection*

According to the glass thickness calculator found here, each of my two front and back panes should deflect .24mm. For my purposes, I should be measuring an increase in distance between the two panes of approx 1/2mm.

There is also some mystical "Safety Factor" number that is apparently used in deciding glass thickness. The thickness and dimensions of my glass yields a safety factor of over 5. That is way, way high safety factor. Overkill really. Problem is, the next lowest possible glass thickness, 3/8", yields a safety factor of 2. That's a workable number, but it is definitely at the low end of the usable safety range. I suppose its would be a tank that you want to make sure never got a really good bump. I've got two boys, and moving up to 1/2" with an overkill safety factor seemed prudent.

If I assume that the thickness calculator is wrong (or I'm using it incorrectly), then at what point should I begin to worry? Well, I'm going to start getting worried as the safety factor falls below 2. I believe 1.5 is considered unacceptable. According to this same calculator, glass my size with a safety factor of 2 would deflect .98mm. So for me, that means if I measure the distance between the panes growing by more that 2mm, I've got to start worrying. And a 1.5 safety factor, absolute bottom end of anything remotely called safe, would yield 1.51mm in deflection.

So what does all this mean? I'm hoping the distance between the two sides does not increase by more than 1/2 mm. But it's OK up until 2mm, when I start worrying. And 3mm is where I turn the hose off, carefully drain the tank, and call the glass fab shop for a clear glass brace.

Hope that made sense.


----------



## cprroy73

Scolley, I wish you best of luck with your tank. But, please video tape the fill up.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> According to the glass thickness calculator found here, each of my two front and back panes should deflect .24mm. For my purposes, I should be measuring an increase in distance between the two panes of approx 1/2mm.
> 
> So what does all this mean? I'm hoping the distance between the two sides does not increase by more than 1/2 mm. But it's OK up until 2mm, when I start worrying. And 3mm is where I turn the hose off, carefully drain the tank, and call the glass fab shop for a clear glass brace.
> 
> Hope that made sense.


Hello Steve,

My tank ( 120 x 60 x 50 H in cm) is bowing totall of 4 mm. Approx 2 mm per pane. So far - after 10 weeks or so - it is perfectly ok and I feel confident about the strength.

Good luck when filling !!

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

PJAN, according to this calculator, that's a good bit of bowing. You didn't mention glass thickness, but I tried to figure it out with the calculator based on an 600mm width, 500mm height, and bowing of 2mm per side. That yielded a safety factor of 1.2 (very low) and a glass thickness of 5.23 mm. That's 1/5" of an inch thick.

That can't be right. That's marginally less than 1/4" glass (a standard size). Do you have 1/4" glass?

So something is wrong:
1) the thickness calculator
2) the measurements I used for your tank
3) your measurements of the bowing​
Kinda hate getting this bad data point before filling it today. It makes all my bowing assumptions suspect. Would love to resolve this, if possible.


----------



## PJAN

Hello Steve,

Glass is 12 mm ( approx 1/2 inch )

Bowing was an estimated guess ( looked over the glass ) : I will measure it now for you again...
And take a picture.

Moment please

PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN. 12mm, that's much more reasonable! Unfortunately that also means that you should be seeing .17mm bowing per side, a total bow of .34.

At least that's what you should be seeing if this calculator is correct. And if it's wrong, my filling up the tank could be an "_anything could happen_" type of event!


----------



## PJAN

picture ( I did my best )










The wood has a round edge on top. My guess is that the gap is somewhere 1.5 mm . It could be 1.7 mm. So that's according your calculations roud: 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN. But 1.5 to 1.7, is not what this calculator yields for your tank. If it really is 12mm thick glass, and if it is 1200mm wide, and if it is 500mm high, then your total bowing should be .35mm.

Assuming all that is correct, and your measurements are correct, something is wrong with this calculator. And if that's true, because my glass in a hair thicker (12.7mm vs. 12) and because my tank is several inches higher (559mm vs. 500), then I'm guessing my bowing should be a bit more than yours.

But how much? And if this calculator is wrong, how do I know it's safe?


----------



## PJAN

Oeps. misread your answer... ( you should write Dutch). We say 0,17 mm.. but that is still less than the 1,5 mm bowing of my tank

The bowing is also influenced by the width of your tank.
Your tanks is only 60 mm heigher. According to my manufacturer, the maximum height he would go to was 600 mm ( 60 cm ).
Bowing is perfectly safe till 3 mm. I think you will have also 1.5 mm bowing.
That's nothing to worry about. The glass won't break, the silicon-bonding ( left en right upper corner ) is the thing to watch.

Fill it up till 50 cm ( 500 mm) and look at the silicon-bonding. After that throw in a few more gallons till 55 cm.

PJAN


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## scolley

Thank PJAN. Will do.

Sorry about the Dutch. I should have remembered. But truth be told, I know just enough Dutch to punch the right buttons on your coffee machines over there. After that, I'm lost.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> Thank PJAN. Will do.
> 
> Sorry about the Dutch. I should have remembered. But truth be told, I know just enough Dutch to punch the right buttons on your coffee machines over there. After that, I'm lost.


That's enough Steve roud: 

I have the champagne ready and waiting! Fill it up ! So I can drink my champagne!

Gr. PJAN


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## joan

It looks absolutely amazing, Steve! Is today filling test day?! :bounce:


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## scolley

Today is the day! :icon_wink


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## bharada

What? No web cam?!!!


----------



## scolley

*Yeeeeeee Haaaaaaaa!*

Not a pop! Not a crack! Not a drop! It works! It works! It WORKS!










I'd like to curb my enthusiasm, and put down my beer, just long enough to thank each and every one of you that helped with this process. The warnings, the advice, the information, and the encouragement. You've all help make this possible. A dream come true! Thank you!

Details later. Right now I'm just busy doing my "happy dance"!











PS - for those of you that couldn't live without moving pics, here's an AVI. But you better have broadband, it's about 8 meg!


Thanks again folks!


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## PJAN

Yeah !

Just one pop.... over here..... champagne !!!! roud: 

It's loookiiing good Steve! If the silicon-bond is ok, you are ready to move the tank to the stand and start working on the thing!

Gr. PJAN


----------



## fishyboy

Someone a proud dad lol.. Looks great


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## nemesis1337

well done! can't wait to see her filled up with plants and fishies! roud:


----------



## m.lemay

Dude, That tank is sweet *ss! Congratulations, well done. roud: 

Marcel


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## joan

Whooooo!!! Nice work! roud:


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## scolley

*Oh noooooooo!*

Thanks folks.

Just got up, got my coffee, was going to sit down, look at posts. But I figured that first I'd go out and look at the tank. Here's what I found...










Nothing's cracked. Just a lot of water on the back bottom seam. I have been a keen observer of silicone in professionally built tanks, and I've noticed a consistent pattern of putting a really big seam of silicone along the inside bottom seams. Thought about doing it myself. Now I'm sorry I didn't.

Well, looks like I've got to drain the tank and have some work to do. This sets things back a bit...

Anybody have any insight into why this thing would be OK for six or seven hours, then decide to spontaneously rupture later? This thing was not  leaking when I went to bed.


----------



## PJAN

Oww, Steve.

Where is the leak? The plug(s) aren't leaking?

Or can you see the leak? 

If the silicon is leaking, just clean the tank, whipe it with aceton and put another seam of silicon on the bottom.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

There is a leak somewhere along the bottom seam of the back panel. After I let the water out to dry it out, I realized that I've got to refill it. I know that there is the bottom back leak with the low water level in it like I found it. But I don't know if something worse shows up when it is full.

So the best case scenario looks something like this:

- today -
1) I refill the tank and confirm that there is only one leak along the bottom.
2) drain the tank, dry it, cover it, and let it dry real well​
- tomorrow - 
3) cut up as much silicone as I can along the bottom edges of the back panel
4) clean it with acetone
5) mask it
6) reapply silicone along the inside and outside bottom back edges
7) add extra silicone along the inside bottom of the other three sided, just for good measure
8) cover tank and let it dry​
- next 4 days - 
9) let it cure​
- next Friday -
10) refill and hope for the best
11) let sit if successful​
- the following Friday -
12) Move tank in the house, hoping the spouse will accept 1 week with no leaks as "proof" of safety.​

It kind of goes without saying, there's a bit of free-floating skepticism in the house at the moment! But that's OK, if I have to rip that whole back panel off and reapply it, that tank is going in my house! It just may take a bit more work and time than I had hoped. :icon_frow


----------



## PJAN

Well, welcome to the world of DYI tanks.
As I remember, I had one tank ( DYI) leaking in the beginning of my DYI-tanks.
So nothing new there.

Cheer up and start working. This is what I would do :

1) fill the tank and investigate the leak. Is it a small "hole" or something.
Mostly it is. Just enough to drip the tank empty.

2) mark the spot

3) drain the tank, dry it with towels and kitchen-paper

4) use I hair-dryer to get the last film of water of the silicon

5) mask it with tape

6) clean the glass + silicon with aceton

7) put silicon on the bottom. Remove immediately and carefully the masking tape.

8) let it dry till wednesday and put some ( a few inches) water in it : in water silicon will dry much faster due to the fact that the acid used in silicon dissolves much better in water than air !

9) thursday-evening : fill it up and control it friday and saturday morning.

10) no leaks ( I think not ) : drain the tank and move it to the stand and start working on it.

There's no reason why you should wait a whole week to see if the tank leaks or not.
If it leaks, it will leak within 24 hour.

Good luck ! Start working on the thing. I know your feelings... I had the same thing once ( or twice ).

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the feedback PJAN. Your advice assumes a little hole. Well...

Tried the fill the tank back up. Couldn't do it. My garden hose doesn't push enough water fast enough to fill the tank. The leak drains faster than the hose can put in water. :icon_frow 

It barely leaks at all with a few inches of water. At about 12" is starts to squirt bit. But at about 18" it darn near gushes. Here's a pic.









And for a little broadband drama... check out this link. 

Both the avi and the pic show about a 2 foot section along the bottom, leaking like a sieve. I'm seriously thinking about cutting the entire back panel off, cleaning it up, and resiliconing it.

Any thoughts?


----------



## m.lemay

Steve, I wonder if the back of the tank wasnt supported evenly which allowed the bottom glass to flex down enough to break the seal? Perhaps the decking under the tank shifted increase with the increased weight of the water in the tank. 

Heres something else to consider: The thicker the bead of silicone is between the panels, the more room for flex there is. In extreme terms a 2 inch piece of silicone will stretch twice as far as a 1 inch piece will before it fails. This being said, perhaps it would be better to remove the entire bottom panel and try to put a heavier bead between the bottom and the 4 sides... Set the tank upside down on a flat surface. And when you sit the bottom panel in place try to set it down evenly or on shims in the four corners to allow a larger gap of silicone between the panels. Then simply remove the shims and inject silicone in the holes. 4 tooth picks in the corners might be sufficcient to do this.

Marcel


----------



## alexandre

A few years ago I built a 100G+ tank, but I snapped the glass by tightening too much. I noticed as well that the silicone seal had bubbles in it. So when I changed the front panel I just held it with tape and let the tank dry out. My seal was thicker, without bubbles and I had no leaks.
After all silicone is elastic, so I think it is best not to press the glass and to leave a seal of approx. 2mm.
Good luck.


----------



## PJAN

:drool: 

Geee, Steve, that's not nice.

You should empty the tank and turn it over to see how the silicon bonded between the glass. Something is seriously wrong.
This is not normal.

I did not see how you glued the silicon on the glass, but did you put first silicon on the bottom-glass and than place the back-pane on the silicon, allowing the squeeze and fill the gap between the glass??

Like this :









Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

m.lemay said:


> Steve, I wonder if the back of the tank wasn't supported evenly which allowed the bottom glass to flex down enough to break the seal? Perhaps the decking under the tank shifted increase with the increased weight of the water in the tank.


Good thinking, and that could have happened, with the shift somehow being a contributor to the leak. But I doubt it, if only because the entire tank is sitting on a rather stiff, thick piece of oak plywood. I don't know if it shows in the picture, but I made a piece, with proper bulkhead holes in place, to provide the tank bottom a bit more support on the stand. The stand is open top. So the tank was resting on a flat surface. If the deck shifted, it should not have flexed the tank bottom. The whole thing should have tilted.

Good thinking though.




m.lemay said:


> Heres something else to consider: The thicker the bead of silicone is between the panels, the more room for flex there is. In extreme terms a 2 inch piece of silicone will stretch twice as far as a 1 inch piece will before it fails. This being said, perhaps it would be better to remove the entire bottom panel and try to put a heavier bead between the bottom and the 4 sides... Set the tank upside down on a flat surface. And when you sit the bottom panel in place try to set it down evenly or on shims in the four corners to allow a larger gap of silicone between the panels. Then simply remove the shims and inject silicone in the holes. 4 tooth picks in the corners might be sufficcient to do this.


I think that could be some good thinking too. The bead between all of the seams now is _thin_. That is principally due to the direction I received on the importance of clamping things down. Maybe the idea was to just hold things still, while I interpreted that as squeezing out as much silicone as possible.

I have adopted though a general paranoia about the bottom. And if this fails, I might do exactly as you suggest. But for now...

I observed that the lip, or overlap, of silicone on the failed seam was much smaller than on any of the other three sides. This was due to the fact that for all my masking, I could only make assumptions on how thick the vertical silicone seams would be, which affected how far the back pane was from the edge of the bottom. Because those seams were thinner than I anticipated, the back edge went on further from the edge of the bottom than I masked for, and wound up with thin (almost non-existent) silicone borders on that pane along the bottom. And low and behold, guess what failed?

So, I've trimmed away all the silicone possible on the entire edge that failed. And I've reapplied masking tape along the entire inside bottom edge, all the way around. I'm going to clean it up, and lay down the Mother-of-All-Silicone-Beads along all foru sides of the inside rim. We'll see it that holds. roud: 

Thanks for the advice though. If that doesn't work, I may do exactly as you suggest.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> I think that could be some good thinking too. The bead between all of the seams now is _thin_. That is principally due to the direction I received on the importance of clamping things down. Maybe the idea was to just hold things still, while I interpreted that as squeezing out as much silicone as possible.


Normally you squeeze till 1 mm ( or max 1.5 mm) silicon thickness.
Normally you press things with your hand and not with clamps. Perhaps you squeezed all the silicon out.
I measured my tank : it has approx 1 mm thick silicon between the glass.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Somehow a couple of posts slipped in while I was responding...

Alexandre, thanks for the info. Your advice seems good, but I'm not redoing the whole tank now - too much work.

PJAN - great pic. I did exactly as you show on your diagram. Problem is, I cranked down with the clamps, squeezing silicone out. Probably too much so.

It's hard to say how thick the seams are. They look to be around 1mm.

I've already re-sealed the bottom with a huge seam. Will let it cure until Wednesday then put in some water as you suggest PJAN, then will test again Thursday night. But I'm not putting this thing in my house next weekend, even if it doesn't leak right away. That thing is sitting outside a week or two, filled with water with no leaks, before it comes in the house!

Seeing water pour out of it the rate I saw this morning is nothing less than inspirational.


----------



## scolley

*Brief update to the good people following this thread*

There are a lot of people out there following this thread. I'm sorry that the progress seems so slow and painful! It _has _ been an ordeal.

But I just wanted to mention to those of you, reading but not posting, that this "tragedy" today is no big deal really. I desperately wanted decent sized, clear tank, all glass, no frame tank, that I could drill bulkhead holes in. This setback today only make that goal a little delayed.

I'm gonna get there!

It just might take a bit more work. But I've got the raw materials (the glass), and the practice (more than I wanted!). So it will happen. Soon. It's just a matter of time, patience, and perseverance. roud:


----------



## Buck

Steve if it is leaking on the rear bottom seal only why not just leave the walls up and dry the tank out and lay in a good bubble free 1/2" thick bead around the entire bottom seal ? 
It will not be visible anyways after substrate goes in. The tank will still maintain the rimless , frameless look but be strengthened in the bottom against leaks.

Very sorry for your setback Steve but better on the deck now then 3 months later in the house. :wink:


----------



## Buck

Also the bottom seals hold the most pressure (gravity you know...LOL) , I would think that a reinforcement bead would be mandatory. :tongue:


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> ...why not just leave the walls up and dry the tank out and lay in a good bubble free 1/2" thick bead around the entire bottom seal ?


Thanks Buck that's pretty much what I did. But I didn't put down a 1/2" seal. I put down an almost 2" seal.

Seeing all that water taught me a bit of respect for that pressure. :redface:


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> Buck I put down an almost 2" seal.
> Seeing all that water taught me a bit of respect for that pressure. :redface:[/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ow, if you really put down a 2" seal, I think it's better to wait till saturday to fill the tank. A massive amount of silicon needs time to dry and even it looks dry, the innerside is still weak ! Watch out !
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Gr. PJAN
Click to expand...


----------



## scolley

Good advice. Thanks. I really put down a 2" seal! I'll plan on putting water in it Saturday or Sunday.

But I'll happily wait until next month for it to dry if I have to. I don't want to see that much water squirting out of an aquarium (especially _my _ aquarium) ever again!


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> ...I don't want to see that much water squirting out of an aquarium (especially _my _ aquarium) ever again!


Hey, add a basin and a high-flow return pump and you'd have yourself one heck of a water feature in your house. :icon_lol:


----------



## Badcopnofishtank

If it means anything Scolley, I have learned alot from this thread. 

Unfortunately for me I will have to apply that knowledge all too soon as my 240 gallon mysteriously developed a crack from one of the edges that was dinged when it sat outside. Thank God it was not inside and full!

I now get to order and replace an 8' X 25" X 1/2" piece of glass!! YEEAAHH!


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> Hey, add a basin and a high-flow return pump and you'd have yourself one heck of a water feature in your house. :icon_lol:


Or a sump without all that ugly overflow equipment!




Badcopnofishtank said:


> I now get to order and replace an 8' X 25" X 1/2" piece of glass!!


Are you sure 1/2" will work? Or are you planning a brace? I have not yet analyzed, written up, and posted my wacky deflection measurements, but I can tell you my 4'x22" was just about as far as I would want to push it. My deflection was 1.25 mm per side. 1.5 would have been over the top.

And it was real clear that _rate _ of deflection increased with depth. I.E. 12" had almost none. 18" starting to show, and suddenly at 22" going Wow!

I'm not sure what it implies for 25", especially across 8', but I'd be careful and gather more info before I assumed it will work.


----------



## IUnknown

Steve,
One of the things that was mandatory in my tank was to have Styrofoam underneath the tank, or else the warranty was void. This makes it so that there is no point source of weight. The Styrofoam makes up for the imperfections in the alignment in the glass panels, that would put twisting stress on the seems.


----------



## scolley

IUnknown said:


> The Styrofoam makes up for the imperfections in the alignment in the glass panels, that would put twisting stress on the seems.


It is possible, that that is what happened to me. M.Lemay suggested as much.

In all of my reading, I saw the need for a cushioning substance under the tank. But everyplace I saw referenced elimination of pressure points that could cause the glass to crack.

You are bringing up something different entirely - reduction of seam stress from twisting forces due to an non-flat bottom. Wow. What else am I going to have to learn the hard way?

I do have a soft pad now, but not Styrofoam. It's just a thin rubbery thing. And FWIW, I read specifically _not to use Styrofoam _ because it didn't compress enough. But I believe you.

Thank! Now I've gotta go find a big piece of Styrofoam somewhere.


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Thank! Now I've gotta go find a big piece of Styrofoam somewhere.


Steve,
Places like Home Depot or Lowes should carry sheet styrofoam in the insulation department. Or you could try your nearest surfboard shop. :wink:


----------



## joan

Home Depot has it for sure. Any home improvement store should have it in the insulations section. The coloured varieties tend to have a tighter, closed cell structure and I would think they'd be the better choice, but maybe not because you want it to compress more? Or no? Those would definitely stand up to the weight of the tank and compress more evenly in the process, I think. Hmmm...


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> It is possible, that that is what happened to me. M.Lemay suggested as much.
> 
> In all of my reading, I saw the need for a cushioning substance under the tank. But everyplace I saw referenced elimination of pressure points that could cause the glass to crack.
> 
> You are bringing up something different entirely - reduction of seam stress from twisting forces due to an non-flat bottom. Wow. What else am I going to have to learn the hard way?
> 
> I do have a soft pad now, but not Styrofoam. It's just a thin rubbery thing. And FWIW, I read specifically _not to use Styrofoam _ because it didn't compress enough. But I believe you.
> 
> Thank! Now I've gotta go find a big piece of Styrofoam somewhere.



Mmmm, I saw the tank placed on a few small wooden lats.. 
Glass of 1/2 inch is very strong. But next time you better place the tank on a thick massive wooden underground with perhaps styrofaom.
I use on my stand just 1 mm thick foam ( to wrap TV's in etc.) to avoid a dust particle to break the bottom glass. The thin rubbery thing should be enough also as long the wooden underlayer is thick enough ( no bending).
For testing a wooden panel of 1 inch thick should work.

I still think there was something wrong with the silicon bonding. Maybe too little silicon on several places and the bowing of the glass forced to open small holes.

Ah, well, no glass broken. That's your luck and the rest is fixable.

Gr. PJAN
( keep my fingers crossed )


----------



## scolley

The tank, as it sits now, and how it sat for the water test, is on 1/2" think oak plywood. It's a pretty solid, flat (and did I mention heavy?) surface. Under the oak slab are multiple shims, used to level to oak. The deck is not level, so the shims are inserted under the oak to level it, so that the tank is level.

But that board _is _ flexing. I can prove it. Look at these two shots closely. In the first shot, I think you can see a little bending in the left side of the board. In the second it looks straight after I put a shim under that spot.



















BTW - the water you see under the tank there is where I drained the tank a bit by pulling a bulkhead plug out (drains a tank fast!). And the contraption on top was to measure deflection. More on that later.

In between the oak and the tank bottom is a thin rubber carpet mat. I am inclined to agree with PJAN, this glass is very thick. I bet it would be really hard for it to flex. But as thin as the silicone is, even a little could have caused the leak, so I'm going to Home Depot to get some Styrofoam. Some nice colored stuff like Joan mentioned. Brown or black would be good.

Thanks for the help folks!


----------



## joan

Oh, I should have mentioned, Steve, the coloured stuff is generally blue or pink... probably not quite what you had in mind. But, since it will be outside of the aquarium, styrofoam paints up nicely as long as you use water-based acrylic paints only.

Edit: the primary reason I'm recommending the coloured stuff, btw, is because of it's superior foam-cell structure to the white stuff.


----------



## scolley

Gee. That's a great side benefit! I just wanted black to match my Eco-complete. roud: 

I'll get some water based acrylic. Thanks.


----------



## bharada

Steve, what are you planning on doing for a stand? Hiding a layer of foam will be easy if you add a band of molding around the stand top. Make the molding the same height as the thickness of the foam and you wouldn'd be hiding much of the tank at all (in case you like seeing the full depth of the substrate through the front glass).


----------



## scolley

If you look way back in the thread you can see pics of the stand. It's a Sedona, and has a nice little 2" lip around the top that will hide the 1/2" oak board, the 1/2" to 1" of Styrofoam, and the bottom pane of the aquarium. So no worries. Thanks.


----------



## bharada

I knew it was probably mentioned somewhere in the thread...but I was just too lazy to go look for it.


----------



## Badcopnofishtank

The tank I am replacing the glass on has a large brace on it (2 feet right in the middle of the tank). 

I was thinking of replacing that brace with some smaller ones that won't be such a challenge to get the light through. Maybe two ten inch braces at 32 and 56 inches? I'll post pics as I go.


----------



## scolley

Badcopnofishtank said:


> The tank I am replacing the glass on has a large brace on it (2 feet right in the middle of the tank).
> 
> I was thinking of replacing that brace with some smaller ones that won't be such a challenge to get the light through. Maybe two ten inch braces at 32 and 56 inches? I'll post pics as I go.


You could replace the brace with glass. In fact, if you get a low iron glass you might be amazed how much light passes through it.

As for the 2 vs. 1 brace question, it's gotta be stronger that way. But where you put the bracing will obviously impact your lighting options, if you are considering lights that rest on the tank.

PS - PJANs tip on pulling up the masking very soon, before it start drying, was absolutely the way to go! I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that before I started on the bottom reinforcement.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> You could replace the brace with glass. In fact, if you get a low iron glass you might be amazed how much light passes through it.
> 
> PS - PJANs tip on pulling up the masking very soon, before it start drying, was absolutely the way to go! I'm sorry I wasn't clear about that before I started on the bottom reinforcement.


Low iron glass versus normal glass :

difference is approx 300 lux. I measured this with a luxmeter in empty tanks ( my old tank has low iron glass ). I was supprised it was not very much.
Still I got the "feeling" that the low iron glass had a more "clear" overal look and I am still considering to built a new tank with low iron glass....mmmmm

Ah, pfff. One good tip at last. Now wait patiently till saturday!

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Deflection*

Well, I'm afraid I've been unable to get the Styrofoam this week. Maybe in a day or three. I'm definately not filling the tank again without it. So, bit of a delay. Instead I'll lay out my deflection measurement follies from the first tank filling last weekend.

The first pic shows the setup I used to measure the deflection. It's just a rigid metal square, duct taped to one side of the tank, with a very precise ruler taped on top of it. And on the opposite side of the tape is a red plastic toothpick, right up against the edge of the ruler. The ruler was taped down so that the "0" lined up on the edge of the red toothpick.










This is a pic of the initial position of the toothpick with no water in the tank. The angle of the pic makes it look like the "0" line was close to the center of the toothpick. Trust me, it was actually very, very close to the right side of the toothpick when viewed in line with the tank edge.

You can also see in this pic a major goof up on my part. I put the ruler down backward!  When the tank expands, that edge being measured will move away from the "0", but it will move in the opposite direction of where the millimeter numbers are. Dooh!










In this pic the tank is approximately 1/2 full. Not much movement.










In this pic it's full, and boy, we got some deflection now! But how much??? My dumb error on the ruler placement made it guess work until later.










Here I just opened the last pic up in Powerpoint, copied part of the ruler image, reversed it, and overlayed it on the pic, lining up the "0" point. 










Considering that the red toothpick was initially lined up so that the "0" was very close to the right edge, I'd say this is just less than 3"mm deflection, or just less than 1.5 mm deflection per side. That's quite a bit more than the glass thickness calculator predicted. But it is still barely in the "safe" range. I think I better put the tank somewhere where it is not likely to be accidental smacked by one of my rambunctious boys!


----------



## PJAN

Well, it's almost the same as my tank with 1.5 mm deflection per side. 
I think it's perfectly safe. 

My old big tank ( 140 x 80 width x 60 height in cm) had also deflection on the 80 cm-side and about 1 mm. The front & back glass had rims but not the sides.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*2nd try...*

Well, I filled it back up today. No leaks. Yet.

This was six days for the new, mother-of-all-silicone-seams to cure. Looking at the seam through the water, I think I can see that six days was not enough time for such a large seam to cure. Some of it is quite clear, other bits, particularly where it is thickest, is cloudy. I assume that is a curing issue, and will now continue to cure now underwater.

Contrary to what I previously posted here, and said in PM's to people, I ultimately chose _not _ to provide _any more padding_, any more rigidity than it had last week. I could very well live to regret this decision. But it struck me that re-testing in the same conditions was a _good stress test_. I'll improve the padding when I haul it inside. That way it will be in the house with an even higher level of confidence.

Assuming of course it doesn't spring another spontaneous leak anytime soon.


----------



## joan

Good luck, Steve! As always, keep us posted. :fish:


----------



## scolley

Well Joan, it didn't take long! Maybe 3 hours. Take a look.










It's that darned back panel again. I believe I mentioned a few posts ago that putting on the back panel last uncovered a problem with alignment. And as such the masking didn't line up right, and the two back inside seams had very little lip, or edge to them. In some places none.

My conclusion is just that the back was indeed a problem. And while it does adhere enough to hold on structurally, the seams and the seals were problematic enough to not hold water.

At least I can say that the mother-of-all-silicone-seams along the bottom held.

So, I'm going to abandon the idea that the tank will have barely visible seams from any angle, and accept that this tank has a "back". So I'm going to let this dry out, and lay down some major seams on the inside of the two back vertical seams where the back connects with the sides. I'm going to leave the nice thin, well masked seams on the front alone for now.

So, set back at least another week. Well I suppose that give me time to test all my eco-complete while I'm waiting. :icon_conf


----------



## Buck

I think it's the dang ducks doin it bro...when you aint lookin they are peckin' at the seals  

Sorry man, I just dont know what else to say... LOL... but my fingers are crossed for a successful repair job... dont let it beat ya !


----------



## joan

scolley said:


>


  

Okay, nobody let my husband see this picture!!! He keeps looking nervously at the 54G plexi I'm currently leak testing out on the deck and then asks me yet again how many gallons it is. I'm having trouble convincing him that, yes, I've looked into it and that bowing on the plexi tanks is normal. (FWIW, the bowing doesn't thrill me either but, hey, it was free. At least I've confirmed my instinct that it's nothing but glass tanks for me.)

Sorry the back didn't hold, Steve. :icon_frow Big seams on the back isn't such a big deal, although I can certainly appreciate the desire to have minimal seams from all angles. Well, here's hoping third time's a charm for you! roud:


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks. Steve will not be beat. Not by a little glass and silicone anyway!

Just another little slip in the time schedule. I am kind of bummed on that, as I really had hoped to have something in time for the AGA contest this year. At this point, the chances having something of substance by Sept 15th seems slim. But that takes the pressure off. Maybe an nice mature tank for AGA 2006!

I've been kinda thinking about printing two pics of the tank leaks, the one side leak and a good one of the bottom leaking. Then taking the pics, having them framed, and hang them somewhere in the house. We have a good bit of art on our walls, so this would kind of stand out in contrast. So when people visit, and inquire about them, I would get a _real kick _ out of casually saying, "Oh. That's just a couple of shots of the aquarium in the family room I when I was leak testing it."

It would be worth it just to see the looks on their faces! :hihi:


Good luck with the plexiglass Joan!


----------



## scolley

*1 more small setback/delay!*

So, I get every thing masked off _real _ nice. Even decided to redo the outside seams against the back panel. Little ones though. 

So far I've used up two large tubes of silicone, but luckily I've got a one untouched little 3 oz. tube, and one 3. oz tube that has a bit left in it. Since the outside seams will take so little silicone, I finish off what's left in the used 3 oz. to on those.

I get ready to do the large inside seams... a new 3 oz. tube should be more than enough. I pop it open with my exacto, and black stuff comes oozing out! _Black_! They sent me _black _ silicone. I know I didn't order that, and it's all I've got.

Not gonna use it. So it's time for another on-line order, running low on some other stuff anyway. But do believe I'll pay to get it shipped quickly. 

I do have a bit of patience, but it is running thin. Ready to get this done!


----------



## Curare

Dude, I have seen some really nice tanks done with finished black edges.

very avant garde...


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> Dude, I have seen some really nice tanks done with finished black edges.
> 
> very avant garde...


Yeah, me too. And I've also noticed that subsurface flaws, like bubbles, don't show up in black. A consideration also, and possibly a reason why some manufacturers began using it.  But I made the black vs. clear decision months ago.

I'm just not "cool" enough for black trim on my tank. I'd have to get my ear pierced next, and gosh knows what happens after that!


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> I'm just not "cool" enough for black trim on my tank. I'd have to get my ear pierced next, and gosh knows what happens after that!


Settle yourself down there, Steve. It'd be a shame to get this thread locked now! :icon_lol:


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> Settle yourself down there, Steve. It'd be a shame to get this thread locked now! :icon_lol:


Hey, hey HEY! That was _not _ an earing lifestyle hostile statement. I let my 13 year old son get an earing last summer! Even bought him a few cool looking ones too. roud: 

I'm just too old for all that!


----------



## bharada

Not putting down earrings at all. It's the...


scolly said:


> ...and gosh knows what happens after that!


comment that had me worried. :wink:


----------



## scolley

*OK, new topic - My hardscape came in!*

Yahoo!

I'm still waiting for my clear silicone to arrive, but ahead of schedule, my hardscape showed up on the door today! Yahoo! I was afraid I would not be able to find what I was looking for, and the stuff that showed up is great!

I've got a "critical path" that has to be dealt with now. Everything depending on everything else...

The tank can't be cycled until it is filled and planted...
Can't be filled until it has the substrate down...
Can't lay the substrate down until I know what the scape will look like...
Can't finish the scape design until I know exactly where the hardscape is going...
Can't know where the hardscape is going until I know how big it will be...
Can't know how big it will be until I cut it down to the size I want...
Can't know where to cut, until I know what I want cut off...
Can't know what I want cut off, until I spend a few hours with a beer in my hand, musing about "how great it could be"...​
Better get that beer! At least I have something to do while I wait for the clear silicone.


----------



## Buck

> The tank can't be cycled until it is filled and planted...
> Can't be filled until it has the substrate down...
> Can't lay the substrate down until I know what the scape will look like...
> Can't finish the scape design until I know exactly where the hardscape is going...
> Can't know where the hardscape is going until I know how big it will be...
> Can't know how big it will be until I cut it down to the size I want...
> Can't know where to cut, until I know what I want cut off...
> Can't know what I want cut off, until I spend a few hours with a beer in my hand, musing about "how great it could be"...


And the worst part is, you cant do any of that until you get the tank to stop leaking. :tongue: LOL


----------



## scolley

:hihi: Everybody love's a _smartguy_! :hihi: Yuk, yuk, yuk.


----------



## Curare

scolley said:


> Yeah, me too. And I've also noticed that subsurface flaws, like bubbles, don't show up in black. A consideration also, and possibly a reason why some manufacturers began using it.  But I made the black vs. clear decision months ago.
> 
> I'm just not "cool" enough for black trim on my tank. I'd have to get my ear pierced next, and gosh knows what happens after that!




Reminds me a of a lyric:

_ and it's not too hard to look just right, if you rip it up, or wear it tight.._

Keep rolling man, you can tell trailblazers by the arrows sticking in them.


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> Keep rolling man, you can tell trailblazers by the arrows sticking in them.


Or from all the water on the floor!


----------



## Curare

you know man, it's gonna take ages for you to settle down and be able to enjoy the tank without stressing that it's going to suddenly become a trickling water feature.

I still stress that my 50 is suddenly going to burst all it's seams at once while I'm at work.

hasn't happened...

yet :|


----------



## scolley

I''m not stressing, I'm just joking. :hihi: But don't tell my wife I'm not stressed. She's depending on my being stressed about this.

Well, the clear silicone finally came in today. That 10 minute job is done now. Now comes the obligatory wait. This time vertical seam was wide, but not very thick. So I think a 2-3 day cure should suffice. I'll fill it Sunday - 3 days from now.

I got the Styrofoam, so I can cut that while I wait (5 bulkhead holes too). Man, every time I turn around, I'm making some sort of accommodation, or spending money, or time, on those d*mn bulkheads. They better wind up being worth it.

And finally, my replacement substrate from CaribSea is on the way, so things should be lining up. If the tank would now just hold water.


----------



## Buck

It should cure quick in this heat Steve... Good luck to you AGAIN... on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate that confidence level ? I would be a nervous wreck , but then again I am a recovering 3am tank failure patient... :icon_roll


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> I would be a nervous wreck , but then again I am a recovering 3am tank failure patient... :icon_roll


Thanks for sharing that little tidbit. :icon_eek: I feel even better now...

No really, I think it is going to work. The silicone clearly holds. I mean, on two occasions this **** was rapidly letting the ocean out, but it held together. And the deflection is exactly what PJAN said it would be, and people out there have done this. So the structural integrity is there.

The question is - will it hold water? I think it will.

And if it won't I'll keep repairing until it does, even if that means taking the back off, cleaning it up, and reapplying. I've got nothing to lose but time.

I give this _much better than even odds. Say 75% (7 on a 1-10 scale!)._ But I do have a problem with over confidence, or lack of appropriate fear, which ever best fits. :icon_wink


----------



## scolley

*3rd time's the charm!*

Just postin' to say that I'm more anxious than a long tail cat in a room full of rocker, sitting around waiting for this silicone to cure.

Got to be patient through tomorrow, and give it a shot Sunday. And like they say, _the third time's the charm_.

Boy I hope so. :icon_wink


----------



## scolley

I'm sick of waiting. I'm not waiting until tomorrow. I'm filling it up now!

Only 2 days curing. News to follow soon.


----------



## scolley

*Was it because I should have waited?*

Well, got a little trickle leak, same spot as last time, but _real tiny_.

Third time was _not_ the charm.

I'll let it dry out tomorrow, trim everywhere within 3-4 inches of that spot, mask, and lay down some more silicone.

If there is any progress at all here, I seem to be progressing from gushing, to squirting, to trickling. I hope it keeps going in this direction. Eventually I've got to get to water tight.


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> If there is any progress at all here, I seem to be progressing from gushing, to squirting, to trickling. I hope it keeps going in this direction. Eventually I've got to get to water tight.


Here's hoping that it won't require the use of a PVC pond liner! 

Good luck! roud:


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> Here's hoping that it won't require the use of a PVC pond liner!


Can you get those in _clear_?


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Can you get those in _clear_?


Lowes might have to special order the low Fe PVC liner for you.


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> Lowes might have to special order the low Fe PVC liner for you.


Yuk, yuk yuk! :hihi: 

That's kinda funny until you realize they're going to _cost more_!


----------



## bharada

A friend back in high school once told me that being able to see the humor in a situation is what keeps you sane. Wise words that have proven true on many an occasion since.


----------



## Buck

How thick are these silicone corners ? When you say trim it out are you excavating these spots and laying down new beads or are you doing cover layers Steve ?


----------



## scolley

Buck, on the outside they are not large. Take a look at post 57 in this thread  for a picture.

For the inside, the silicone new silicone seams extend out exactly 1/4" (in each direction) from the line where the two sheets of glass join. The bead itself is definately thin. Very thin.

As far as the trimming away is concerned, I merely trim what is exposed, being extra careful not to plunge the knife into cured the silicone that is between the glass. So when I begin to lay the new silicone down, there will be none to be see except the 1/2mm thick seam that is between the two pieces of glass.

Maybe 1/4" isn't wasn't enough?

Oh, BTW - the seams that hold great, from the front pane, the one put on first where the masking aligned perfectly. Those seams are less than 1/8" wide. And they hold like a charm.


----------



## scolley

*Another lesson learned*

I just got thru my patch job. Trimming up silicone near the leak, remasking, and laying down more silicone. And one thing was certain. The silicone had not yet cured.

It was really soft. Peeled up without a fight. Not quite putty like, but definitely not hard.

I assume that it was due to several factor:

1) Not enough time - only 2 days. It was thin, I thought 2 days would be enough.  
2) It has been very, very humid. Hot, which is supposed to help. But humid.
3) I had a beach towel over the top of the tank. Probably held in the humidity, aggravating the problem. There has been a nasty pollen fall - yellow powder on everything. I didn't want if sticking to the silicone. I suppose I had not choice but to cover the tank, but I should have accounted for it slowing down the curing process.

Live and learn. Next test... Friday. Five days.


----------



## plantbrain

Let it dry in a well ventilated area, see instructions on tube
24 hours is enough time under those conditions.

I tape all surfaces not being glued.

Black silicone is nice also. 

always over size the thickness for the glass.

This not only looks nicer, it's much stronger and easier to glue.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## scolley

plantbrain said:


> always over size the thickness for the glass.
> 
> This not only looks nicer, it's much stronger and easier to glue.


Tom, I know you've got scads of experience here, so I wish I knew what you meant by "oversize the thickness".

Can you explain? Thanks.


----------



## Buck

I think he is referring to thickness of the plates themselves...if the tank volume requires 3/16" glass jump to 1/4" for the safe side, 3/8" thick to 1/2" etc. The less the glass bows the stronger it would naturally be and the less chance of weakening the seals.
Our tanks should not bow, especially with a rimless design. 

Steve the humidity we are having will add days to the cure process, not hours. I cant believe you are curing this tank outside, I thought you were curing inside and only testing outside.


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> I cant believe you are curing this tank outside, I thought you were curing inside and only testing outside.


It's 1/2" glass, every side and bottom. It's heavy. And I can only move one side. The other has to be moved by my wife and oldest son. And after watching that Keystone Cop operation help me in the simple task of moving it outside for the first water test, I concluded it wasn't being moved by them again until it was going in the stand.

It was scary.  Straight out of a _Three Stooges_ movie.

I could get a friend over to help, but that's one time out, and one time back in (the next day) for each water test. Easier to just leave it outside.

Thanks for the tip on the humidity. I understand Tom's point, but I don't think he was factoring for the humidity. I've dug up a bit of silicone at this point, and I can tell you for sure, that last bit I removed this morning was not cured.


----------



## zapus

Sounds like it's time for a furniture dolly.


----------



## Curare

Acetic cure silicone does take a long time to dry when it's applied in large amounts.

the thicker it is, the longer the cure.


----------



## cprroy73

I am very interested in your progress Steve and wish you the best of luck.

Have you thought about tearing it down totally and scraping the seams and redoing the beads maybe a little thicker between the pains, I mean panes.

Just kidding about the pane thing. :icon_bigg 

Anyway, if you like I could measure my oceanic's silicone thickness on my 58, but not sure if the thickness should be the same because my glass is not as thick and I have frames.


----------



## scolley

cprroy73 said:


> Have you thought about tearing it down totally and scraping the seams and redoing the beads maybe a little thicker between the pains, I mean panes.


Thanks. Yeah, I've thought about it. And if I can't get it to stop leaking soon I will.

I'm definitely learning how to use silicone now. Practice helps.

But believe it or not, I hurt my back hoisting the panes in the last go round. And it still gives me trouble. So, frankly, if I can just plug it, I will.

But I've learned a few things that I'll write up as serious "lessons learned" post before this is over. One of them is don't squeeze all the silicone out with your clamps!

The for me the big fear was glass breaking. Now that that does not appear to be an issue, this leaking thing is just a PITA that will get resolved one way or another.

Thanks for the support! This will finish soon enough. It better.


----------



## m.lemay

I seriously believe that the lack of thickness between panes was the major contributor to the leaks in your tank Steve. Extra thickness allows more flex, in tension and compression, which allows more movement before failure.

Marcel


----------



## travdawg

If I could offer a suggestion that might help with the curing.... Get a couple of small lamps, or just light sockets & run 40 or 60 watt bulbs to them, set them inside your tank & plug them in with the towel over the top of it. It would keep the pollen off, & the heat from the lights may keep the inside hot & dry. I dont know if it would generate enough dry heat to combat the dampness of the outdoors, but with a thick towel or blanket over top of it (not so close to risk fire of course) it might proved enough to burn off the moisture in the air in the tank.


----------



## scolley

Good idea Dawg! I've got a 40w lamp on it right now, with towel over it to retain some heat. Held my hand there... barley warm, certainly not hot!

Marcel - I'm sure you are right. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go through all that work though. Not unless I'm forced into it. It if works, then it works. That will be good enough.


Curare - this new bit of silicone is thin, and will hopefully cure soon. It's hot - maybe 88 degrees, for the last two days. And today we've got a nice breeze blowing the humidity off. The lamp should help with that too.

Zapus - I wish I had a dolly! :icon_frow That would help a lot.


----------



## Curare

This acutally reminds me of a little experiment my brother and I did some years ago.

if you go fishing I'm sure you've see the soft tail jigs that are available.

well over here in the western side of aus we have some big finny friends to play with, and at the time there wasn't a big enough soft tail to throw into the surf.

So we set about making our own.

We found that mixing polyeurethane based pain with silicon colours it and makes it more pliable. excellent. a mould was made and filled with this goo, thick as all get out in the middle with 6 inch tails, and an inch wide.

The tails dried overnight, but the body took 3 weeks to fully cure. if you squished the body before then it would burst, and you'd end up with goo all over you.

Just a thought, might make you feel a bit better there Scolley


----------



## scolley

*Filling again, but avoiding temperature shocks*

I've been thinking about what Marcel said about the temperature changes/expansion/contraction, and think that _may well _ have come into play here.

It's been pretty warm, and the tank has been outside. But until the last day or so, the water out of the garden hose, used to fill the tank, has been quite cool. Every time I would fill it, the sides would instantly fog up with condensation. Significant, rapid temperature change for the glass. But since it was being filled from the bottom up, the bottom parts of the thank should have reacted at the same time, while the dry portions of glass above it cooled less fast. Maybe causing stress on the joints?  

When you think about it, a weekly water change is done with the same temp water, so this should not be an issue. But my tests could be putting some "unnatural" stress on the tank.

So last night I filled the tank slowly, very slowly, until it was 2/3 full. Stopping just under the last leakage/patch point. I'll let that cure an additional day today, and then fill it the rest of the way. Slowly. That will give the patch 4 days and 3 nites curing, plus 6 hours with a 40 watt lamp on it.

The bottom 2/3 seems to be holding OK, 16 hours later. I've got my fingers crossed for the next 1/3!


----------



## scolley

*Boy do I feel stupid...*

Well, just because fate will not allow me the sweet, sweet taste of success - I've got a tiny leak. But it's _real_ tiny. And it's at the _top_. And it's _my own fault_!

When I was performing the last patch, I saw a little tiny spot right at the very top of a back seam where I didn't like the silicone work, and I trimmed it just a hair. And then, of course, I forgot to patch it.

So now the tank is full, and holding water so far, except for one tiny spot in top back corner that has no silicone, and keeps the water level 1/16 of an inch from the top. As if to taunt me! I can't quite fill it to the top! Just a hair away!

Well if this holds for a week, I'm going to patch that bit after I drain it, and move it inside. I'm not slowing down for the last 1/16 of an inch.

That's just the gods having a good chuckle at my expense.


----------



## Marc

Steve- how high do you plan on keeping that water? Inch or two below the top edge?


----------



## scolley

Marc said:


> Steve- how high do you plan on keeping that water? Inch or two below the top edge?


The plan is 1/2" from the top Marc. So that, like Amano's tanks that you took the pics of, the gap that you see at the top is the same width as the glass edges. Kind of a consistent width border around the water.

So that 1/16" doesn't really matter, except to rob me of complete satisfaction! Keeps me humble I suppose.


----------



## bharada

Sounds like you're well on your way to enjoying your new tank! Congrats!! )


----------



## Curare

*golf claps*

go guns scolley


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks. But it's got to get past the first hurdle, which is overnight with no leaks - never done that yet. Then it's got to remain leak-less for a week or so... then, and only then, a victory will be declared.

Until then, Cuare, I've got no idea what a golf clap is. And why would you tell everyone a fish story, but not tell us if you actually caught any fish? Just a question - one fisherman to another. roud: 

Also, bought a light today, since it seems that things are finally happening. Got a Tek T5, 6x54w.

Also, started boiling my driftwood tonight, since it seems that I might actually need it soon. I hope.


----------



## Buck

You have earned it on this one...cant wait to see it setup! I may have to take a ride and have a celebratory beer with you for this effort ! If you are buying... :tongue: LOL


----------



## Curare

Ahh, scolley, why do think you can find so many "larger" soft tails these days?

hehehe...


----------



## scolley

*Am I cursed, or what?*

Buck, I'm buying the beer. But I don't have to start saving my money for a while I'm afraid...

This tank has yet to go through a night with water in it, without have bad news in the morning. Last night was no different.

I checked this morning, and saw the water level was down an inch or two. I looked at the problem seam from yesterday, and saw why. Take a look.










Sorry about the focus. It was hard to hold the camera still, what with all the tears running down my cheeks and all. Those little gaps you see up top are just that. Gaps. The widest being about 1/8" wide. But there isn't 1/32" of silicone between the side pane and the back panel.

I'm cursed by the back. It was pulling away.

So, knowing I've had a problem with that back since the day I put it on, and considering that every single leak I've had has been some edge of that pane, I pulled it off.

Yup. Ripped that puppy off. Which was not easy BTW.

Best case now - 2 weeks. 2 days to get the silicone off the glass. 1 day to reapply the back. 5 days to cure, and another 5 filled with water as a confidence test.

All I've got to say, is this is not for the feint of heart, nor the easily daunted. But it is well suited to the stupid or stubborn. Now who was it that suggested I build my own tank? IUnknown?

Buck - I think I'm gonna pop a beer early. Not going to wait on you. Sorry. I need it to cry in.


----------



## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

Say no more, say no more :icon_frow 

I think it's a wise decision to glue the back again.
Please clean the glass with agressive stuff. Tri-chloor-something
My tank manufacturer told me that was important to give the silicon good grip ( remove grease). 

Oh, boy. Better now than later....

Gr. PJAN


----------



## timr

I've been watching the learning curve on this thread for a while. It seems that the clamps were a bad idea. Maybe not the clamps themselves but clamping down so hard. I'm surprised that the other people that have built tanks didn't catch that. 

But I think the best thing that has been said yet, and prompted me to reply is....



PJAN said:


> Oh, boy. Better now than later....
> 
> Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*I don't think I clamped tight enough!*

Fair comment timr. I got the idea about strong clamping vs. clamping sufficient to hold it from experienced sources. But maybe I just misinterpreting an emphasis on clamping with a need for heavy clamping.

Interestingly though, I'm beginning to see a good bit of evidence that indicates that _the problem may not have been from clamping too tightly_!

First, in the photo below, you see the side that was leaking and pulling away. While this argument applies to the other side of the back too, the glass was pulling away at the top, exactly where there had been the least clamp pressure. The back panel was the only place that I used the "strap clamp" that you see below. You couldn't really crank that down. And where on the back did I use it? At the top - where it leaked.









Also, when I was separating the glass yesterday, it was clear that the leaking seam was much thicker than the seam on the other side. The seam on the side that held was so thin, I had a real, real, hard time getting a razor blade in there. Took me about 1/2 an hour to cut that seam. The seam on the side that ripped took about 1/2 a minute. It had a much thicker seam.

So, the thick seam was leaking, but not the thin one. Hmmmm.

The evidence gets stronger when you consider that I used that wimpy blue clamp on the back to hold the bottom down. It's in the pic. That clamp would just not clamp hard, not like the orange ones that you could really crank down. And that wimpy thing clamped the side of the bottom happened to be the side that leaked!

And then the evidence gets _even stronger_ when you consider that the vertical seams attaching the front to the sides, and the seams attaching the sides and the front to the bottom. All of them were cranked down tight by the heavy duty orange clamps, producing thin seams. Go back and look at the pics if you don't believe me.

The only places that leaked were thick seams that had not been clamped down tightly.

So I've get several good data points that indicate that these sides should indeed be clamped down tight, creating thin silicone seams. Because practically every place I had wimpy clamping wound up leaking!

While everyone is assuming the opposite - tight clamping and thin silicone is a problem. I got caught up in that thinking myself, before I started looking at all these clues. It may be good common sense. But the evidence indicates that it is wrong.

I would be happy to hear from voices of experience (building large tanks please) that can provide evidence to the contrary, or support my suspicion that I just did not clamp that back on tight enough. Thanks.


----------



## AaronT

I wonder if there's not somewhere you could go to take a class on building glass aquariums. I know I'd sign up if I could afford it.


----------



## scolley

Pls speak up folks if you've got something to add to this! I'm learning as I go. So unless I get some good, experienced advice to the contrary, I'm clamping that back on tightly tomorrow.

Thanks.


----------



## fishyboy

Not sure about anything here and no way would i try building my own tank, but any chance it would help if you layed down a thick seam then clamped it hard so the seal was tight between the panes + sealed inbettwen the right angle?? My all-glass+ perfectico tanks are like that. I can't beleieve you can stand this... I can't believe you're staying this positive about it after all this


----------



## scolley

Thanks fishboy. I'm doing exactly as you suggest. It's just that on the last panel, the large back one, I think I didn't clamp down hard enough.

As for saying positive... well, beyond the odd tube of silicone here and there, the money's already spent. As long as I don't break the glass, eventually I've got to figure out how to make this stuff stick together!

But it is my heartfelt hope that by documenting this process to such ridiculous detail, that good lessons will be learned for everyone. And that other people will be able to do the same as I've done, just with a bit less trial and error! roud: 

That does, of course, assume I'll ultimately be successful.


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## BiscuitSlayer

I don't have any experience with building tanks, but your train of thought seems to be on the money with me Scolley. The thin seam being dificult to separate and the thick one being easy actually makes sense to me.

My questions to you are:

Can you get the side that had the thick seam to be as close to the side that had the thin seam or is there possibly some other factor at work here other then not clamping tight enough?

The last time that you were sealing this pannel, did you notice that you had a thicker seam on the side that leaked or did you just happen to notice it as an after fact?

I definately don't know as much as you on this subject, but I do have a knack for troubleshooting things. My line of thinking is that if there is something at play here that is stressing that particular seam, or making it vulnerable to stress then you might be beating your head against the wall chasing a ghost. 

It might be as simple as you are thinking by clamping it tighter the next go around, but if it isn't you are going to be back to square one.

Once you are done with this bad boy and have perfected your technique, put me down for 2. I hear that you do good work. :icon_bigg


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## bharada

Steve,
I think the one thing I would take away from your experience is the need for assembly forms/jigs in building anything requiring glass thicker than 1/4". By that I mean if you had jigs to hold the two end panes upright simultaneously you could have glued the front (or back) panes in one step by laying it on top of the two vertical sides...using gravity and the weight of the glass to even out the seams of silicone. After that dried you'd flip the piece over and lay the opposite pane down. Then you'd flip it again and lay the bottom pane down. Of course, then you'd be writing a novel on the proper jig building process for us to learn from. 

I'm just glad that you haven't gotten discouraged by the leaks...like you said, the glass isn't broken so all you're out is some time and a few tubes of silicone. roud:


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## SCMurphy

bharada said:


> Steve,
> I think the one thing I would take away from your experience is the need for assembly forms/jigs in building anything requiring glass thicker than 1/4". By that I mean if you had jigs to hold the two end panes upright simultaneously you could have glued the front (or back) panes in one step by laying it on top of the two vertical sides...using gravity and the weight of the glass to even out the seams of silicone. After that dried you'd flip the piece over and lay the opposite pane down. Then you'd flip it again and lay the bottom pane down. Of course, then you'd be writing a novel on the proper jig building process for us to learn from.
> 
> I'm just glad that you haven't gotten discouraged by the leaks...like you said, the glass isn't broken so all you're out is some time and a few tubes of silicone. roud:


Jigs,.,.,.,, that sounds familiar.


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## scolley

Thanks for the feedback folks.

Sean - was is you that originally suggested jigs? There have been two things on that topic in the thread. One was a cabinet building brace (right angle clamping thing) that I did get a pair of (not cheap), which I believe at some point I think were called jigs. And the other is the thing you guys are referring to now, some kind of frame to told things in place during assembly.

Bill - I appreciate the thinking on that. I decided against that earlier because I don't really have to wood working tools or skills to build such a thing correctly. Also, I've not read about anyone doing it that way. As much as it is clear that there is some confusion over details, I am sticking with a construction technique that has been successful for people in the past. Why don't _you_ build one with a jig, and start a thread? :icon_wink I think one monster thread is all I'm allowed.

Biscuitslayer - I'm not aware of any obstacle that keeps me from getting both sides just as tight/thin. More on that below. And it is really hard to tell how thick a seam is, after the fact, because a bevel has been cut into every edge. And the bevels get filled with silicone, making the seam look a bit wider than it is. And to make matters worse, the bevels were created with a manual process, so they are not consistently sized. 



More thinking on the "thick seam" problem...

I never documented it, but I've been replaying the process we went through to put on the back the first time in my head, and I think I've got more proof. And I also think I know why the top of the other side of the back never leaked, even though it too, only had that strap clamp on it.

Putting on the back took a lot of silicone - one side, the bottom, and then another side. By the time I got the silicone all down, the first side was skimming over, so I clamped it first. I used an orange clamp on the bottom, and borrowed an orange one for the top, then put on the strap. Once the strap was on as tight as I could get it, I took the orange clamp off. That was the side that never leaked!

The other side, the one that leaked, I never went through the process of cranking down with the orange clamp. I figured that it was the last seam laid down, so it was not dry and still compressing easily, so the strap pressure was enough. Well now I guess that was a bad assumption.



And complaints about money...

I've previously said that all this extra work was costing me was silicone. We'll I've gone through maybe 25 or 30 exacto blades getting the silicone off. That's not free. But worse, upon accepting the possibility that my problem was due to inadequate compression, I've got to fix the compression problem. Which means, if you look at the last pic I posted, I've got to replace that crappy blue clamp, and the strap clamp, with three more of the orange clamps. Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money! :icon_frow

When all this is over, I'm going to start a clamp rental business for everyone out there that wants to try this. Don't laugh. If I just count 6 big orange j clamps, and 2 right angle cabinet clamps, that's $150 in clamps! So assuming shipping is not too expensive, and I charge $20 to rent the set, you can try it for yourself, and save maybe $100 in clamp cost. And eventually I recoup a bit of cost.


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> Why don't you build one with a jig, and start a thread? I think one monster thread is all I'm allowed.


Sorry, no room for any more large aquariums in my house. 



scolley said:


> When all this is over, I'm going to start a clamp rental business for everyone out there that wants to try this. Don't laugh. If I just count 6 big orange j clamps, and 2 right angle cabinet clamps, that's $150 in clamps! So assuming shipping is not too expensive, and I charge $20 to rent the set, you can try it for yourself, and save maybe $100 in clamp cost. And eventually I recoup a bit of cost.


Nah, it just sound like you're on your way to having a well equipped workshop.  Have you ever watched _New Yankee Workshop_ with Norm Abrahms? Now that's a guy with a lot of clamps!

You know what else might have helped you are those suction-type glass handlers that you see installers use for large window panes. And when you were done with the for kids could use them to scale tall buildings. :icon_lol:

Ain't hindsight a beautiful thing.


----------



## scolley

bharada said:


> You know what else might have helped you are those suction-type glass handlers that you see installers use for large window panes.


Bill - I've been lusting after those things for months! It would have made this so much easier. Particularly holding the glass during the assembly process. It's really difficult to hold a very heavy piece of glass but not touching the edges, because you've degreased and cleaned the edges so the silicone will stick well.

Yeah, I've been dying for those suction cups/handle things. But guess what. They are _expensive_! That's why I don't' have any... been putting all my money into clamps.

Norm having tools is cool. He uses them, but unless someone near me decides to do this too (Marcel!), these will just be gathering dust.


----------



## scolley

*Removing Silicone - a World Class PITA!*

Only now have I finished cleaning all the silicone off. It is indeed a _World Class PITA_.

All told cleaning the silicone from removing that one back pane took somewhere between 8 and 10 hours. Man! Scrape up the big stuff - easy, kind fun, and makes you think this will be quick. Then it the scraping up of the little "skin" that is left on the surface that starts to run into the hours, and chews up a new razor blade about every 6 inches or so. That's when you realize this is going to be hard. And _then_ comes the real PITA - scraping up the little smudgy film, kinda grease like, that's left after any silicone you can actually feel is gone. _That_ takes forever.

And if that's not enough, in some places, like the edges of the glass that were cut - the cross sections where the glass is not highly polished, the greasy film leaves a visible residue. A kind of smudge. You can't feel it, but you can see it, and can only assume it will in some way compromise the bond. I've used acetone, "Greased Lightening", "Dirtex", "De-Solv-it", and "Goof Off". None of it works.

I guess I'll just have to clean what I can with acetone and hope for the best.


----------



## scolley

*Not a bubble to be seen!*

Wow! I siliconed the back on, and it looks great! Not a bubble to be found. It's too bad that I've got all those bulkhead holes in the bottom, with specific orientation requirements, or I'd just spin the tank around and use the back for the front.

I did four things differently, so I can't be sure which made the difference. Maybe a combination:

1) I put tonnes of acetone on the glass to clean it. Not a damp lint free cloth like before, but a cloth literally dripping with acetone.
2) I put tonnes of silicone down. I also did before, but this time I used an entire caulk gun sized tube for just the back.
3) I set the bottom down at about a 25 degree angle, and sloooowly tilted it up to the vertical. I did this before, but not starting at nearly such a severe angle, nor rotating upward quite so slowly.
4) I put the vertical silicone beads on the back pane, and the horizontal bead on the bottom pane. Last time I didn't put any silicone on the back pane, just applied it to the two sides and bottom of the tank.

So, something made a big difference. Don't know what.

If it wasn't such and unbelievable PITA, I'd rip the front off and re-do it too.

But I won't. I'm just gonna count five days then grab the garden hose. roud:


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## naX

Subscribed! Looking forward to the fill. Great work thusfar!!!! roud:


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## timr

Steve, i see what you are saying about the clamping pressure, it's interesting. I was going to let you borrow some of my bessy clamps (the same as your orange ones), but you have it back together already. i'm very interested to see how this plays out on the next fill. I assume it was all clamped down tight this time?


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## scolley

Thanks naX! And timr, thanks for thinking about me on the clamps! I went back to Home Depot and found out that I could have saved $50 if I had purchased them all there, instead of the local hardware store. Rats!

As to things being clamped down tight, I've got two on each side, high and low, holding them the back pane tightly to them.

But I messed up clamping the back to the bottom. I've got two of the same clamps doing that, but not as well I'm afraid.

I've got the tank on a small round iron table to make room underneath for the clamps, just like in the original build. But rather than laying a beach towel down like before, I took this chance to put my new piece of Styrofoam under it. Figured I'd kill two birds with one stone - provide a nice surface to prevent scratching, and give me the opportunity to trace the bulkhead holes on the Styrofoam for cutting later. Dumb mistake!

When I went to clamp the back to the bottom, I realized that one end of the clamp was on Styrofoam, and not the bottom of the tank! Dooooh!

So I moved them slightly so they were on the bottom of the table that the Styrofoam rests on, hoping to distribute the pressure a bit better. I can certainly tell you that that is one seriously compressed piece of Styrofoam.

So, I'm trusting it will be OK. Man, if it's not one thing, it's another.


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## scolley

Here's a look at the clamps. And the goof-up with the compression of the Styrofoam. The plastic is on there to reduce the pollen and stuff from the trees not getting in the tank. It's normally completely covered, but the plastic has many large slits cut in it to allow air circulation.










But when I pulled it back, that tank bottom was hot! Almost burned my hand! Hot.

I wonder if that means this is curing faster and I don't have to wait 5 whole days???


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## AaronT

I sure hope you were using gloves while handling an acetone soaked rag! Acetone is quite caustic and should not be handled with bare hands if avoidable. 

Hopefully, you'll have a nice tight seal this time.


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## scolley

*Acetone problems?*

Maybe I'm being silly for trusting directions, and I appreciate the word of caution! But the warnings on the acetone can have the typical "don't splash it in your face, don't mix it in your Margarita" type instructions. But for skin it only warns of "prolonged contact".

I'd give it 120 seconds of light contact, dampness soaking through the cloth. So I'll assume I'm OK. Hope so anyway.


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## dewcew

Not to get too far off topic, but I am sure the caustic acetone will have no permanent impact on you. I think the worst thing that will happen is that your hands might feel a little dry. I used to literally bath in the stuff in grad school.

At this point, I am more concerned over your mental well being over the frustration this tank has caused you. Just keep in mind how great it is going to look when it is over. 

Of course, if it all works out I plan on showing this thread to my wife as inspiration for my next tank (or at least the last page  

Dan


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## timr

on the note of acetone and bare hands, I know for a fact that you should not use acetone to clean things off of bare skin. I heard abouthtis back when i used to frequent the fiberglassing boards. It actually dissolves the fiberglass resin (or whatever is on your skin i'm sure) and allows your blood stream to soak it up, can be fatal in the right concentrations.


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## AaronT

I didn't mean to imply that one exposure would kill you or even make you sick. It's just good practice. Exposure over time to caustic chemicals is never a good thing and it adds up.


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## scolley

*Acetone on definitely on-topic!*

Thanks folks! I don't consider this off topic at all. The whole purpose of this thread is trying to show in ridiculous detail the agony and ecstasy (still waiting for that part  ) of this project for other people to potentially learn from.

Acetone is clearly required in this process. I can't count the times I've opened that caustic can. So I think a little discussion on the topic is good!

Everyone should know what they are up against should they be foolish enough to give it a go themselves. roud:


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## Curare

I might be a sicko, but I've learned to love acetone. It will remove anything from anything! and quite often, if it's plastic, remove it from existence!

Acetone after long periods of use will cause dermatitis and other skin problems.

Scolley, looking good, but, don't get too impatient! better to let it cure for too long than not long enough!

In the meantime, grab a beer and admire your handiwork.


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## naX

How many days until the fill? Tomorrow? 

I also had a thought, but I'm not sure if it's a valid one. I've not worked with silicone much so I'm not sure if it's possible or if it will work, but for those joints that you may have bubbles in, could you load a syringe up with silicone and "inject" it into the bubble? I think it would be hard to find a needle small enough to get just the bubble but large enough to allow silicone to pass, but maybe it's possible. If not that, then could you take the syringe idea and use it to suck the air out of the bubbles?

Sorry if it's a stupid thought, but I just wanted to try and contribute something.


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## scolley

The big fill will be tomorrow - one more day - Friday makes 5 days curing in the nice warm sun! Thanks for the advice to use patience curare. It's stupid of me to get rash now, but this is about the umpteenth round of waiting, and rather than getting better at it, I'm getting worse. :icon_frow 

naX your idea is a good one, IMO. I did something like it in another thread where I documented my build of my test tank. But in that process I was using dosing syringes. The 1mm internal diameter of those blunt "needles" was just about all you could push silicone through. I suspect that it is just too viscous to go through anything smaller. And it would have to be much smaller to pierce the silicone and not get clogged with chunks of silicone as you pushed it in.

In fact, I had to remove the needle to suck silicone into the syringe to load it. You just can't create enough suction to pull silicone up a tube 1mm in diameter. But if you really push hard, you can squirt it out that tiny tube. But your suggestion would take a tiny, sharp needle, and I really don't think it would work.

I'm concerned about this topic because of this little nasty I found yesterday.










It's a bubble that cuts straight across the silicone where the back hits the bottom. I don't know if it goes all the way into the tank, nor if it goes out the back, but it runs perpendicular to the seam, which is bad.

I suppose I'll find out tomorrow.

PS - But there are no bubbles on those vertical seams.


----------



## Kelpie

I'm thinking about doing the exact same thing as you began but a low-iron glass cube for a reeftank (sacolley here btw). I'm wondering why not just build a plywood box into which the aquarium would fit very snugly, apply the silicone to the seams and friction brace it from the inside with diagonal lathes of padded wood? In this way the glass would be pressed toward opposite walls of the plywood box by the strips of wood. Do you think such a contraption would work? If so, my only jig would be the plywood box and one could easily go into production this way.


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## scolley

Kelpie - I'm not sure if that would work. But before I delve into that, I just want to say publicly that I really appreciate your gracious act of changing you username from "Sacolley" to "Kelpie", just because I was concerned that things might get a bit confusing. That was one unselfish and gracious thing to do! Thank you. :smile: 

Now about that tank...

If I understand what you are saying, you are describing something where the glass presses outward, with the silicone not in compression. From all the stuff I've read on the web about tank building, I've not seen one example where silicone was not compressed to some extent or another. So you are into new territory for me here. You might find some of those links here in this thread  where I made my first "test" tank that might help. But I don't think so.

I've also never seen any evidence of a seam being more than about 2mm thick, so there is that consideration also. How are you going to manage that if you are pressing outward? Thats some pretty tight tolerances for glass cutting. I know. Personally, I'd be a lot more comfortable with a thin seam. But I'm not an expert, and can't back that up with solid reasons. Sorry.


----------



## Kelpie

Thanks for the reply,

I didn't know how to expunge my other identity so I just re-registered under another nick. Kelpie = Scotish water demon LOL

Anyway, I had not counted on the compression factor as being important. I guess I'll have to rethink things. I plan to use microscopy sildes for spacers. I was wondering why, if compressed, the silicone is not forced out of the seam by the weight of the glass.

One other quick and easy question. Does silicone bond better to polished or to unpolished glass surfaces?

Thanks,
K


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## Curare

Kelpie is also a breed of australian sheep dog.


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## Kelpie

I had to keep something of a herding sheepdog about my Nick. LOL

This from the Scots Dictionary:

kelpie:

In Scottish folklore, a kelpie is a water spirit or demon in the form of a horse. Kelpies were believed to inhabit lochs and rivers, and to lure the unwary to watery graves.

Kelpie is possibly from the Gaelic cailpeach a bullock.


----------



## Laith

Steve, I must say I admire your perseverance!

I'm pretty sure I would have trashed the thing by now and bought one pre-made! :icon_bigg


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## scolley

*What is this now? Try number 5?*

Less than an hour to go before it's been 5 days of curing - noon Sunday until noon Friday, and I'm psyched!

I've got a 10 yr old son that is lucky beyond all imagining. He's actually _had_ a royal flush - with no wild cards! And we have a collection of the many four leaf clovers that he's found. The list goes on and on...

So he gave me a rock that he considers lucky. I put it in the tank. And if this thing holds water now, whenever you see a pic of the tank in the future, you can bet your bottom dollar that his rock will still be in there somewhere, hiding under the substrate, helping keep that water in the tank where it belongs!

PS - Thanks Laith. But be careful what you admire, this might just be dumb stubborness. :wink:


----------



## scolley

*So far so good...*

Well, it's holding water for now. Been here before though.

Filled it up slowly because the water was so cold vs. the tank. Had the Styrofoam pad down this time. And also left in my son's lucky rock!










Now the big test is a milestone that has never been passed - going through the afternoon and night without losing water.

Time to sit back and be patient. Again.


----------



## naX

Awwwww, no duckies? 

That looks big enough to swim in!!!! I'm green with envy!

On a side note, is it just me or does the [ply]wood base seem to be warped? Maybe it's just a trick of lighting/perspective.


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## scolley

I left out the duckies because every time I used them, the tank started leaking. I'm not taking any chances now! :hihi: 

As for the board, it is both a bit warped, and aggravated by the picture. It didn't start out that way, but several weeks in the rain has not been kind to the board. That's why I gave in and put down the Styrofoam.


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## m.lemay

scolley said:


> That's why I gave in and put down the Styrofoam.


I think that was the best Idea you could have had. The styrofoam will keep the pressures even around the edges.


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## eds

I expect nothing but good.
That rock sure looks lucky!


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## timr

I'm with eds, that's the luckiest rock i've ever seen!!!!!!!


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## scolley

If you count four shims from the left, you'll see the rock just over the shim. And I think if anyone were the try to grab it right now, I'd break their arm!

6 hours now and no leaking - I think the rock factors in there somewhere! :icon_wink


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## Kelpie

I have my fingers crossed for you.

Do you think silicone adheres best to polished or nonpolished glass edges? 

Furthermore should one have a slight bevel on the edge to hole more silicone?

One more please. What do you think about the use of glass microscopy slides as shims. The are less than one mm thick and there is very good precision in their manufacture.

Thanks


----------



## scolley

Thanks Kelpie. I'm afraid I don't have the knowledge to answer your questions in any authoritative fashion. But...

The edges of my glass are polished, and they hold. But I've had leaks. Is that aggravated because they were polished? Or would it have been worse? I'm afraid I can't say. But I do know polished edges look a whole lot better. Regular cut glass, unpolished, has kind of wavy, IMO cheap looking, edges.

Same goes for beveling. Better for it? Worse? I can't say. But it sure looks a whole lot nicer.

And finally, glass microscopy slides as shims. It could work. But plastic shower door shims are precisely made, aren't brittle, about 1mm thick (I think), and silicone does not stick to them. They slide right out. I mistakenly thought I needed shims to do what I'm doing now, and used them in my test tank. Check them out in this thread.

Thanks for the finger crossing. So far so good!


----------



## joan

Crossing my fingers!


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## scolley

*One night down - still FULL!*

Well, it's a milestone for me. Never made it thru a night without leaking.

What a joy to come out this morning to find a tank full of water!  

Thanks for all the finger crossing! Don't stop. Something's working, and if it goes on for a week this thing is going in the house!

Marcel thinks it's the Styrofoam. That could be a factor, but I can tell you for d*mn sure, that rock's staying right were it is! :icon_wink


----------



## naX

Can I borrow your kid for a few days scolley? 

AWESOME NEWS!!!!! Have you looked over the silicone/joints this morning? If so, how are they looking? No changes I hope.


----------



## Clone

Well I hope for your sons sake it doesn't leak. If any more luck is needed sculley Jr. my have to get wet :tongue:


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## scolley

Joints...

The joints look good as far as any evidence of stretching goes. There appears to be none. But with that said, there is an ominous change in the joints opacity. Where the edge of the sides abutted the back pane used to be quite clear. I'm talking about the vertical joint where you could see bubbles, of which there were none this time.

Well it's not all clear now. Some of it has turned somewhat milky, which must be either stretching or separation of the silicone. :icon_eek: 

But I'm not deeply troubled about this because it happened to the front pane on the first fill. And that pane has given me (knock on wood) no trouble. Time will tell.


My son Mickey's luck...

I'd lend him out, but we've already figured out that his luck is his own. He wanted the tank to stay full, so I kind of get the rub off effect. If I'd asked him for the rock, and he wasn't really motivated, just being helpful, the tank would be leaking now.

If we say, "Mickey, come with me while I pick a lottery ticket - you pick the numbers", we get nada. Bubkus. But if Mickey says "Dad, if I give you money for a lottery ticket, can I keep the money?", and I say "OK", he usually wins something.

The luck is his. You can't borrow it. Sorry. I've tried.


----------



## naX

Hahahahaha, I guess that's good though [about your son]. Means that his luck won't run out or be used for wrong intentions. lol

In the commercial built aquariums I've seen/had, the joints were clear but turned opaque after filling. Perhaps it's just normal? At any rate, I hope the tank remains full! How long are you going to keep it under testing circumstances before considering it "safe"?


----------



## scolley

naX said:


> In the commercial built aquariums I've seen/had, the joints were clear but turned opaque after filling. Perhaps it's just normal?


Is that common? Does that mean I don't have to be concerned?

I plan to let the tank sit for a week.

So far I've learned that it tends not to leak immediately, but begins leaking within 2 to 12 hours. It's past that apparently "critical time" now, so I'm assuming the next seven days will be fine.

But if it _does _ start leaking sometime in the next seven days, I don't know if I'll _ever _ be able to trust it. That will prove the first 2 to 12 hours aren't really critical, and that it is really just a time bomb, waiting to destroy my family room. So I'm hoping for a nice, dry week.


----------



## Biznatch

Better find a nice place in your aquascape for that rock. The last thing you need is to move it inside, take the rock out and bust a seam. I have been following for a while and that tank is amazing. I wish I had the skills and courage to do something like that myself


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## naX

scolley said:


> But if it _does _ start leaking sometime in the next seven days, I don't know if I'll _ever _ be able to trust it. That will prove the first 2 to 12 hours aren't really critical, and that it is really just a time bomb, waiting to destroy my family room. So I'm hoping for a nice, dry week.


May be wise to invest in a few of those giant Rubbermaid tubs and place them all around your tank. 
:tongue: 

Actually, I would agree with you though. If it busted after like 5 days, I wouldn't trust it in my house even if it passed a month test (well, maybe I would after a month).

I have faith though!


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## Urkevitz

The tank looks like it will hold to me roud:


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## greenmagi

Is the bottom glass elevated? From what Ive reaserched the weight of the water should be supported by the bottom glass and the water presure should be displaced across the surfase area of all the sides, thats the theroy behind elivating the bottom glass from my understanding.. HTH..


----------



## scolley

Biznatch - if the water holds, the rock is going in the substrate. I'm going to leave it right where it is now. If something works, I tend to stick with it!


naXI - I'm not getting the rubbermaids, but I am doing something. I got one of those screamer things (someone suggested that here - thanks!). And with the tank being bulkheaded, my pumps don't have to be on to empty the tank, gravity will do it. I don't know if you've seen the outflow manifold earlier in this thread, but I'm hooking up an extra bit of tubing to one of the extra outflow nozzles. Each nozzle has a ball valve built in, and the tank itself is about 6 feet from a sliding glass door.

So if that screamer starts screaming, I'll open that glass door, roll the emergency drain tube out the door, open the ball valve, and drain the tank to what ever level necessary to make it stop spewing. Boy I hope that never happens!


Thanks Urkevitz! Me too.


greenmagi - I'm not sure what you are driving at. Whether the tank bottom has the sides resting on it, or the bottome is glued to the sides, up off the level that the sides are resting on - the weight of the water is still bearing down equally hard on the bottom in both configurations. What's changing is where the weight of the tank is being borne.

But either way it's too late now. The tank sides rest on the bottom. I've seen designs where they do what you are describing, and I would get a kick out of really understanding the benefit.


----------



## naX

I hope you know that I was kidding about the Rubbermaids scolley. If ya didn't know, then now you do. lol

It really sounds like you're ready for any problem. If it were me, however, it would be my luck that it decides to give out when we're all gone for a long period of time. 

I look forward to more updates!


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## BiscuitSlayer

I would be afraid to go to sleep or work for about a week with something like that in the house. If your son brings you the type of luck that you say maybe he should sleep next to the tank for a couple of weeks once you get it in the house. Would it be cheating to ask your wife if any lucky people might be willing to do something like that while your son is in your presence?


----------



## scolley

naX - Kidding or not, the rubbermaids are not such a bad idea.


BiscuitSlayer - OK, in response, I feel like I have to come clean...

I _do _ believe in Karma. And I _do _ believe in God. And I _do _ believe in good things happening (luck) to those that expect it. But I don't believe any of those things can be counted on to do the things I want, when and how _I _ want them.

So the luck thing has been a good chuckle. :icon_bigg And I will keep the rock right where it is (hey, you never know). But my confidence in the tank will be based solely on observable facts.

There. I said it. Now it's not quite as much fun. But if it works, I certainly don't want anyone PM'ing me for lucky rocks so they can do it too! :wink:

If it work, then it works because it works.


PS - I'm still not movin' the rock...


----------



## scolley

*Plumbing Problem?*

Last nite went by with no water loss... Yea! If it wasn't for the wife wanting to see this thing outside for a week first, I'd bring it in sooner. The 7 day metric is rather arbitrary. It made it past the apparently critical time. Who's to say how long is long enough now? A week, a month? A year?

Doesn't matter though. I might have a plumbing problem...

I started unpacking boxes yesterday and putting some of the plumbing together. If you've actually read this entire thread  , you'll recall that I plan on running two filters, an Eheim Pro II 2026 and an Eheim Ecco 2231. The Pro will be the primary filtration, while the Ecco is really just to push all the in-line stuff; heat, CO2, fert injection, UV. The Ecco won't come over until I break down my 20g, but I'm installing the Pro now.

My problem is in the size of the nozzles on my manifolds. Here's a pics of the inflow and outflow manifold from earlier in the thread.










The Pro uses Eheim 16/22mm hose, which fit over the nozzles like it was made for them. But upon close inspection, I see that the inner diameter of the nozzles is a mere 10mm! I bought these from a reputable web retailer, so I would have thought by sizing it to fit the hose the interior diameter would be appropriate. But choking a 16mm flow of water down to 10mm seems like a lot!

All I could find was slip fitting nozzles, and because mounting a screw adapter onto the slip fitted nozzles would add more length to the manifolds, I just cemented them in. So unless I invest a great deal of re-work to rebuild the entire manifold system, and lay out more cash, I'm stuck with these nozzles.

I could use a hose coupling to run the Pro's inlet and outlet into two nozzles apiece, but that's such a kludge. And it introduces extra joints.

Is this going to work?


----------



## joan

Okay, it's getting really hard to type by fingers are stiiiiilllllllllllllll crossed! :fish: 

No idea about the plumbing, sorry.


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## scolley

*Draining and refilling the tank!*

The tank is taking a visible tilt. I can't say how much, but it's a few degrees - quite visible.

So out of concern for it causing any undue stress, I'm draining the tank and will refill it again. Pain in the pa-toot.

Thanks for the fingers crossing Joan. Maybe that's why I noticed this little potential problem in the making. :wink: How long can you keep them crossed?



Anybody got any insight into that 10mm vs. 16mm internal diameter problem from my prior post? Need some help with this one if you know the answer. Thanks.


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## joan

scolley said:


> How long can you keep them crossed?


Ages, as long as you guys can stand the typos... :wink: ...or maybe that was the lack of coffee...


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## Biznatch

Hmmm I didn't measure the barbs I used when I just plumbed my tank. But that is almost half the size it should be. Doesn't sound too good to me, but that may be the standard for the hose barbs. I would go to a store like homedepot or lowes and look at their 1/2" x 1/2" hose barbs and see if they measure the same. If you have no stores like that around let me know and I'll undo my spraybar and get the calipers out.

The pluming seems pretty thick though. It might just be because I'm only seeing the main connection pieces and not any of the actual piping though. Is it 1/2" or 3/4" piping? 3/4 would be too big I think. I used 1/2" for both my filters since that's almost the same as 5/8 tubing.

Edit: Can you take a picture directly at the manifold? I'm having trouble understanding the plumbing from the side and don't want to sort through 30 pages to find your description of it


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## scolley

Bizsnatch - I appreciate help. Thanks, I need it. But I'm not gonna dig up that manifold pic yet for one, very good, reason. It has nothing to do with this problem, and will only make any discussion more complicated than it needs to be.

This is a just simple question - _Given that an Eheim Pro II uses 16/22mm hose, is it appropriate to use a slip fitting in-line that has an internal diameter of 10mm?_​
Everything about how the manifold works will just get us way off topic. I have a whole thread/debate on how the plumbing works. If I can get some information about the above question, I'll be happy to go into wacky plumbing.

BTW, I just got back from HD, and they don't have hose barbs in this size. A 1/2" hose barb is approximately 12mm outer diameter. These hose barbs are about 16mm outer diameter. That's why they fit the 16/22 hose so well.

Thanks for the help.


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## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

All I can say about the diameter :

My Aquamedic 1000 reactor has small diameter barb and I had to tight down real good the outer 16/22 mm hose with clamps otherwise it would leak.. The inner diameter of the Aquamedic barbs (?) is about 10 mm.
The flow is still very good of my Eheim pro II.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN! That's the info I'm looking for. Unless someone disagrees with you, that means I'm in the clear!

Boy - I really didn't want to have to rebuild those manifolds...

That is kind of funny though... it seems like my barbs have a large difference between the internal and external diameters; 10mm ID and 16mm OD. Kind of odd, considering that I bought these at a major aquarium online retailer.

Anyone disagree with PJAN? Or have information that would suggest to the contrary?


----------



## scolley

*Tank leveling update*

Too bad it's dark outside - I wish I could take a picture to show you guys!

As I mentioned in an earlier post, the deck (that the tank is on) seems to be settling a bit from the weight of the tank. So I drained that tank and leveled it a bit, working with shims and such.

Well I just got through filling it back up and it looks awesome! With the water coming up to the very edge of all four sides, so that the water's surface edges blend in with top edges of the glass, the illusion of of it being one solid block of water is _just too cool for words_. I guess you would just have to see it.

Getting to _THIS_ incredible visual effect is what I've been busting my hump for all this time! Man, I can't wait to get it in the house. :icon_bigg


----------



## Oqsy

well, i've been following this thread for months now and have never had much to say that would be considered helpful, so I've just read and learned. now I finally have a little something to add...

as for the plumbing issue, your barbs should work fine... if you were to adapt down to a pipe or hose that was that small you might run into problems with overworking the filter, but the small amount of space that it's narrowed shouldn't pose any problems at all... think about all the spraybars out there that would burn up filters in no time if the filters couldn't handle the increased backpressure.

fantastic thread and very fine looking tank. if i could ever convince my wife, I'd build one identical to yours (dimensions are exactly what I'd like). i'm sorry if this has been brought up before, but as you're aware, this is a MONSTER thread... is there a price breakdown of tools, parts, etc somewhere in the thread? I'm so tempted... if money were no object, and I could go without sleep, I'd already have one sitting on my back porch  I've also been seriously considering a plywood tank with a low iron glass, but it would definitely be braced. it wouldn't even come close to the beauty of a rimless ADA style, but at least I could say "I built that tank". 

Way to go!

Oqsy


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## scolley

*A Summary of the Monster Thread is coming*

Oqsy - I really can't say how much your feedback means to me, (but it's a lot! roud: ), to I'll just leave it to a simple "thank you very much"!

And thanks on the feedback on the diameter issue. The manifold was deliberately overbuilt, to ensure never being a limiting factor. So it would be a real kick in the b*tt to find out now that the nozzles destroyed that design objective.

I started this thread so people can learn. It's wound up as a a bit of a blog, but that has some value in that people get to see that such an undertaking is not just "buy some glass", "silicone it like this", and "wa-la! - you have a great tank!" The reality is that it has been a _major _ ordeal. But I believe in the end it will be worth it on a lot of different levels, and not just economic.

So when this is all over, I will summarize this into a far more digestible form. My thoughts are at this point that it will comprise:

1) assembly instructions
2) parts/price list (comprehensive)
3) lessons learned
4) and possibly a risks/benefits (a "why bother?" set of musings)​
But I'm open for suggestions for more. 

Thanks again. (Oh BTW - it's still holding water like a champ.)


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## Curare

Go scolley! Go scolley! Go scolley! Go scolley!

Oh and FWIW, I'd run with the barbs you have on there, but make as few of them as possible.

Wherever you can, I'd suggest hard plumbing it to keep good flow rates up.

My other reasoning for doing this is that it will reduce the need for periodical pipe cleaning, as this will be a major chore with that network of plastic noodles you have there.


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## Biznatch

Hmm I didn't know that there was a difference between the barbs you have and the ones I have. I just bought the 1/2" ones from home depot (well the Do it Center, since they acutally had them) and the hose fits perfectly. I still use a hose clamp just to be safe, even though it fits tight enough that it probably isn't needed. My 2217 is flowing through my Co2 reactor and still has really great flow. I had to shorten the spray bar a bit but I also increased the diameter of the holes quite a bit and it still sends my vals sideways  And if you say it measures 12mm around the outside, then the inside is probably even smaller than the 10mm that yours measures so I think you're safe.

About the Manifold picture, that was out of pure curiosity. I just plumbed my tank with pvc so I just wanted to see how you did it since it is completely different than mine. I'm really glad that it's holding water this time because I want to see your tank set up finally.


----------



## scolley

Biznatch said:


> About the Manifold picture, that was out of pure curiosity. I just plumbed my tank with pvc so I just wanted to see how you did it since it is completely different than mine. I'm really glad that it's holding water this time because I want to see your tank set up finally.


Here's the plumbing design thread. You could live to regret delving into that one...

And here's a repeat of the manifold images. The first, the inflow, is actually simple. It has too really big holes that will be connected to 1" flexible PVC which will be connected to bulkheads in the tank. Water will come rushing in. From there it will go past two black constricting orifice ports. One port will have my temp sensor in it, the other my pH probe. From there it will flow through which ever of the four nozzles has their attached ball valves open. So this allows up to 4 parallel ways the water can flow into the stand equipment. See the thread above to understand that one.

You can also see a grey orifice port on the bottom with a wire hanging out. That's just a ground wire to eliminate any stray electrical currents, if any.









Next is the outflow manifold. Much simpler. Four ways into it that consolidate into two parallel ways out. Those outlets can be attached to a manifold in the tank through a bulkhead. But at the moment I plan on plugging the unused bulkhead holes and hooking the water return up to two "typical" clear tubes with glass lily pipes hanging into the tank.









Hope that's what you were looking for Biznatch. Thanks for the help.


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## scolley

*How do you level a stand?*

Tank's doing great. roud: Now having to deal with issues I've been kind of putting off before moving it inside. One of those is leveling the stand. How do you do that?

I've got thin wedge shaped shims that I used for my 20g. Those worked, but this tank's going to weigh a lot more.

My stand bears it's weight around the perimeter. The floor of the stand bears no weight. The floor the stand sits on is slightly tilted down toward the front of the tank. So if I stick shims in along the front the stand will be level. But that also means both side will be bearing no weight since only the shimmed front, and back will be touching the floor. And to make matters worse, the back will no longer be flush against the floor, but tipped up at an angle, with all the weight on an edge.

Do shims work? What do you guys do?

Thanks.


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## briandmiles

*Shimming*

Scolley, you can actually shim all around the bottom of the stand. Simply start at the front and get it shimmed and leveled from that aspec first. After that you will have a gap around the sides that can also be shimmed making sure that you don't put the side shims in too far, thereby taking the pressure off the front. Simply put the side shims in by hand and give a slight tap with a hammer to make sure it is snug. When it's all shimmed take a pencil draw a line at the edge of the stand and then remove the shims, number or mark them so they can go back where they belong and cut them then put them back. Hope that all makes sense.

Brian


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## eds

About that plumbing, have you contacted eheim with your question? I've had good experience getting reasonably prompt responses to e-mail in the past. Flow and turbulence always make my head hurt.

I can't believe I was asking Buck about "must-see" sites as I pass thru your fair state in a couple of weeks, and he neglected to mention the newly famous "Westport Whale Tank" and lucky rock!


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## pineapple

Some wood floors move according to the humidity of the season. In the summer what might be a bump or a slope turns into a flat floor in the arid winter.


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## scolley

Brian - Yes, that makes sense. A bit of a PITA, but it makes sense, and can be easily done. Thanks.

Do have a lingering question though... are you including the back in that shimming? As in, do I put shims in the back too to help level out that "resting on the edge" issue? If so, that will be a real PITA since the shims would have to be inserted from underneath the stand. :icon_frow 

EDS - Good point! Thanks. It's funny, I place so much trust in this community, I often forget to go back to the manufacturer. I'll call, and let you guys know! And BTW - I'm not sure a 75g is quite enough to get me on the state's list of "must see sights". :hihi: But if you are up here, and you have any interest in real whales, I'd definitely take a look at Mystic Seaport. It's well worth a few hours if you are in that neighborhood. Fascinating, large historical site!

Pineapple - good point. Thanks. I don't think there will be much I can to about that. But I am having a carpenter up later this summer that will be going into the crawlspace under the tank to put in some extra floor bracing. It's a bit after the fact I know, but hopefully better than nothing. And raises the possibility of getting a 150g!


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## briandmiles

Shimming on the back edge shouldn't be necessary. Think of it this way- if you shim the back you are simply undoing the leveling that you did with the shims in the front. If you are truly worried about the distribution of forces along the back side of the stand then the only real option would be to custom fit it to the floor i.e. cut or sand the bottom of your stand until it stands level without any shimming- yet another PITA. I know there are pictures of the stand buried somewhere in this thread but what exactly (meaning what size piece of wood) is resting on the floor? I'll try to look it up and see if I can offer any more advice.

Brian


----------



## scolley

briandmiles said:


> Shimming on the back edge shouldn't be necessary. Think of it this way- if you shim the back you are simply undoing the leveling that you did with the shims in the front. If you are truly worried about the distribution of forces along the back side of the stand then the only real option would be to custom fit it to the floor i.e. cut or sand the bottom of your stand until it stands level without any shimming- yet another PITA. I know there are pictures of the stand buried somewhere in this thread but what exactly (meaning what size piece of wood) is resting on the floor? I'll try to look it up and see if I can offer any more advice.
> 
> Brian


It's basically 1" wide wood on the floor, all the way around except front, where there is a decorative arch. So most of the front doesn't touch the floor except for a few inches at the front corners.

But I don't think the back is "undoing" what's done in the front. Think about it. There's a 1" wide piece of wood along the back edge, with the entire width of that 1" resting on the floor. As soon as I tip the front upward, the back 1" piece of wood tips back too so that only the back edge is touching the floor, instead of the entire 1" width of it.


----------



## PJAN

Mmm,

How bad is it actually? Are you talking about 1 mm or more?

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

For the stand to be level, the front has to be raised 5mm, or a bit less than 1/4". The stand is 20" (or 508mm) from the front edge of the front to the back edge of the back.

So, according to Pythagoras : 508mm squared + 5mm squared = the hypotenuse squared.

Or the hypotenuse = 508.025mm.

If I divide the hypotenuse by 20 (the back wall is 1" thick) I can use that same theorem to determine how much the front edge of the back wall has been raised up.

When I do that, it becomes clear that the level of precision in converting inches to millimeters is high enough to make the calculation worthless.

In other words, I'm not sure how high that back edge is raising, but it's something in the 1/100th's or even 1/1000th's of an inch. IMO the wood will compress that much, and _I have no issue_.

Happy to hear from anyone that disagrees!


----------



## scolley

*Words cannot express...*










See that water in front of the tank? It's coming out of the front bottom edge.

It has bowed out at the bottom a couple of millimeters, and the silicone has clearly come unattached. There certainly wasn't enough in there to allow a bow of that size along the bottom edge.

Nothing else I really wish to say at the moment. :icon_frow


----------



## bigstick120

I guess that leveling that stand can be put on hold now!!!! Sorry couldn't resist. I feel for you man, if I were you I would smash that tank with a 10 pound sledge. I know that you will stick with it though roud:


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> See that water in front of the tank? It's coming out of the front bottom edge.
> 
> It has bowed out at the bottom a couple of millimeters, and the silicone has clearly come unattached. There certainly wasn't enough in there to allow a bow of that size along the bottom edge.
> 
> Nothing else I really wish to say at the moment. :icon_frow


Hey Scolly :icon_frow 

I warned you before : use a thick board under the tank wich can't bow.....

Repair the edge and find a thick board.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## PJAN

And I have now ( I didn't want to say it outloud before) some serious thoughts about the used silicon.

I made about a dozen tanks, I never saw such a problems. A small leak ( no silicon) ok, but ripping of entire glass walls or ripping in the corner... no

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Buck

Oh man Steve... I am feelin for ya bro. :icon_frow 
You must be runnin out of patience by now. I have to say that even if it goes leak free for a week you will never have a moments peace if you set that up in your house. Every time you walk past it or do a water change you will be running a finger along the seams checking for moisture. I still am nervous every day since losing a 56G in the middle of the night.
If I were you I would either start from scratch or make it a terrarium. I am really sad over this, I know how much effort you have put into it.

You have some thinkin to do so I will leave you to it. What a bummer !


----------



## Curare

Oh man, that's terrible.

But, maybe pjan is right, what type of silicon are you using?


----------



## scolley

All-Glass Aquarium 100% Silicone Aquarium Sealant

"Same strength silicone used to manufacture new aquariums" - text from tube

One might check the materials list in this link.


----------



## timr

well i'm just going to ignore the recent replies. And say that my stand for my 100 is similar to your stand in that the perimeter bear's the load. I used siding shingles all along the front and two short sides to level it. Basically just leveled it by the corners and then slide more shingles in to fill the gaps. I hope that someday this info will help you.


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## scolley

_Thank you_ timr. I bought shingles just this afternoon, assuming I'd do the same thing. But I appreciate the confirmation. Now I just have to figure out what kind of tank will go on the stand.


----------



## m.lemay

Dude, don't give up on this tank!!!! Nothing is ruined but your pride :wink: 

Take a little break, do some more research. Go back and reread all the stuff you already read and see if you might have missed a little detail that may have seemed irrelevant at the time. 

Now that you got your feet wet, (no pun intended), maybe you missed something that'll be really obvious now that you've learned some of the pitfalls.

I still think that the joints should have a little more thickness to them, but I could be way off base.

Here's another thought: It's probably never been done before. Polyisocyanurate(AKA: Crazy Glue) They make a Gel version which might be exactly what is needed here. This would be mainly for structural integrety, then use the silicone to seal the seams from the inside. Just a thought :icon_roll 

Marcel


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## naX

Dang, so sorry for the mishap!!!!

I'm sorry if this has already been brought up, but have you thought about contacting a manufacturer and asking for some tips? Maybe they know something that you're missing. A trick of the trade?


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## Curare

Whoa! Hold the phone there Marcel!

Are you talking about using cyanoacrylate? If so, NO WAY

Cyano is just too brittle to be used on anything that moves or is subject to movement i.e. the panes on a glass tank.

It's good for making light model aircraft but that's where it stops, oh and sewing GI's up.

Scolley, one thought, was that the seam that you redid? The one with the bubble in it?

Or was this an older seam?


----------



## naX

I believe CA is different from "Crazy Glue", but I could be wrong. If I am wrong, then I agree. I use CA in my R/C aircraft hobby. It's strong, but won't hold up to the water pressure.


----------



## joan

scolley said:


> See that water in front of the tank? It's coming out of the front bottom edge.
> 
> It has bowed out at the bottom a couple of millimeters, and the silicone has clearly come unattached. There certainly wasn't enough in there to allow a bow of that size along the bottom edge.
> 
> Nothing else I really wish to say at the moment. :icon_frow


  :frown: I'm so sorry, Steve. I can't even begin to imagine how frustrated you must be at this point. I agree with Marcel, though, don't give up on this. Take a short break and step back from it all for a bit maybe, but this IS a worthwhile project.


----------



## Curare

Ahhh naX I see we are both touched by the balsa bug


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## PJAN

Scolly,

On the photo : it looks like there are lots of bubbles in the silicon on the right?

Is that correct???

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*First*, I just want to say "_thank you_" to everyone for your support. :smile: 


*The Event:*
The front of the tank was bowing forward, breaking the seal along the bottom. The bow in the middle, along the bottom edge was significant, 3 or even 4mm - more than twice the measured bow along the top. It's a miracle it didn't snap.

Most of the seal held pretty well. The leak was moderate. But the fact reams that the silicone seam itself, where the glass touches the glass, must be compromised. The excess silicone along the edges seemed to have stretched and held pretty well.

The recently reparied back, never budged - no measurable bowing along the bottom edge where the front failed.


*Extenuating Circumstances:*
In the four days that the tank was filled, there was little foot traffic on the deck. Not none, but moderate. Last evening, when this occurred, I cooked on the grill on that deck, which caused me to be walking back and forth in front of the tank many times.

While the deck is very sturdy, made of heavy redwood beams, this must have caused some level of vibration to be transmitted to the tank.


*Likely Causes:*
1) _Poor support _ - the tank needed stiffer, flatter wood underneath
2) _Inadequate silicone _ - While the AGA is listed as "same strength" as used in manufacture, it is not listed as the same product.
3) _Incorrect construction techniques _ - big, big question marks here

It could be any or all of these. And maybe something I'm not thinking about.


*Additional Information*
1) _Bubbles_ - The bubble of concern, that I documented with photos, was on the back, not the front. The back performed like a champ.
2) _Other bubbles _ - other bubbles that you see in photos, are just that, bubbles in the water. There are very, very few bubbles in the silicone.
3) _My pride _ - it's bullet proof. :icon_wink I can accept a failure periodically, if I feel like I gave it an effort I can be proud of.


*Extenuating Circumstances:*
1) The repetitive action of scraping silicone for hours upon hours from the back has causes a touch of bursitis (tennis elbow) in my right arm. Even if I want to, I'm not going to be able to use that arm to do that again for quite a few weeks.
2) I have a hard time "fixing" this thing when I don't really know what the problem was. I have suspects, but no clear, undeniable cause. This leads to uncertainty about whether the problem was actually fixed, and whether it's safe in the house. Buck had some good advice in this space.
3) I've got a ton of plants on order, to be delivered in a few weeks. I don't know it that can be canceled.
4) I've got a ton of really expensive, kind of hard to find, plants already in my 20g, soaking up all the light, in the anticipation of putting them in the 75 very, very soon. My other plants in the 20 are getting light starved.
5) I had my heart set on entering in the AGA contest this year. Got all the hardscape (very difficult to find), and if I don't plant a tank very, very soon, there's no chance of that happening.
6) While the 20g has been shoved into a temporary spot while it waits to be torn down. And there is a empty huge stand, with a light hanging over it. It's all a bit unsightly, and I'm not sure if I'm willing to ask my wife to wait many more weeks for it so be resolved. She's been a really good doobie about all this. I _know _ she'd be much happier if I just went out an bought a tank and be done with it.


*Course of Action:*
Unknown - got to think about it. The obvious alternatives are...
1) Buy a tank. Soon.
2) Spend a good part of the summer researching the problem, and probably replacing the front pane.


*Other feedback:*
Marcel - good idea on the Polyisocyanurate gel, but unless I can get proof that someone has done it successfully, I'm not too inclined to do it.
PJAN - I really don't think it's the board, but maybe I'll PM you on that. Too long a discussion.
Buck - funny you should say that. Are you looking for a terrarium? Only 5 holes in the bottom.

*Everyone * (yes that's _you_! ) - if you have personal experience in successfully building glass aquariums 55g or larger, and can tell me what kind of silicone you used, it would be _much _ appreciated. Thanks.

Also, to _that same group of experienced people_, I'd love to know about your use of clamps, or other forms of compression, or lack thereof, in building big glass tanks (again 55g or larger only please). Thanks.



*Conclusion:*
So, no decision yet. Got to think about it.

Thanks again. roud:


----------



## eds

Damn, damn, damn!

I was really eager to click in here this a.m. and see the triumphal journey continue. Instead, the drama is heading to an entirely new act. One thing is for sure - the rock did its job! You must have really screwed up bigtime somewhere to outweight all that karma!

Remember when you actually had a life, and did and thought about things other than this stupid tank?!

Okay, here's my suggestion. Do with it what you will. 

Buy yourself a tank and do the setup you are dreaming of. Put this project on the back burner. Heck - maybe make your immediate project disassembling it and getting to where you can start again from scratch. The cost of the tank itself will be a miniscule cost of the new setup you are planning. But here's the kicker - make sure the tank you buy is not the tank of your dreams. That way, in another 6 months - or even a year or two - when things have settled down and you have busied yourself with family and other projects for a while, you have the AGA ribbon hanging on your wall, and your elbow is healed -- you'll find yourself thinking about those beautiful sheets of glass you have stored away...

But I think you might do well with a little time away from this particular project right now. JMHO


----------



## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

Long road...

As far as I consider your options :
First :
1) re-glue the panel
2) find a really thick board or place the tank on a solid floor ( garage) with styrofoam under it. No bottom friction allowed. 
The problem with glueing glass on top of the bottom is friction of the bottom glass pane. That's why they glue the glass panels against the bottom in stead of on top.
3) it will give you set-bak of 10 days.

or go for the second fast option :

1) buy a tank at at the same size. Open top and with rimms.
Use normal hoses etc. for filtration. Classic set-up
2) take your time fixing the tank
3) sell the classic tank with rimms and exchange it for the crystal clear one when ready

Plants can be kept in large buckets in the shade in the garden. I have plants growing in large buckets now ( it's summer right now....) and they are doing very well.
So storage of plants should not be a problem.

Mmm, the silicon : I can't answer your question from here. I use "Bison" aquarium silicone. It's from a big manufacturer who makes lott of different glues and so.
Rather expensive but gives me the security it comes from a well known manufatcturer and not a third-party.

Gee, wish I could help...

Gr. PJAN


----------



## eds

This guy in RI is offering a 75g for $85.

http://www.listitri.com/items.php?cat=1&listing=9237

Says he will deliver up to 30 miles.
Heck - wouldn't 30 miles take him clear across both RI & Conn, and a good way into a REAL state?!


----------



## Marc

When I was reading your post regarding reasons for the leak- One thing came to mind- More support. A brace out of glass could be made to put on top on the tank to prevent bowing. But then if you do that- this would not be an ADA style tank.

You could take the same brace and put it in the tank so that the front and back pane are supported at the bottom where the leak is occurring.

It’s a shame to scrap the project with all the time and money you have put into this project.


----------



## Salamastre

Scolley, I found a link that may be useful to you. The guy is not as tidy as you are, but he had the problem of the front of his tank bowing out and the silicon almost failing. I quote:

" Oh no! Stress marks! Isn't it fun going to the edge? Very exciting. NOT. I noticed some stress 'risers' in the joints at the top. Did I tell you about the wrong silicone used? No? Well, it seems that my assumption of the high quality silicone I was using was flawed. SCS1000, even though it has such a neat name, is generic silicone used by the construction industry. What I should have used is SCS1200. "

Silicone may be the cause, there are silicones that form bonds with glass with a tensile strenght upwards of 600 punds per square inch. Other silicones will give you less than 150.

The link is:

http://www.wizardscave.com/aquarium6.html

Don't give up!


----------



## m.lemay

I'm with Salamasre, I think the silicone is weak.


----------



## eds

m.lemay said:


> I'm with Salamasre, I think the silicone is weak.


I dunno why, but when I saw that post I heard James Earl Jones saying:

*The silicone is weak in this one, master.*

I need to get out more!


----------



## timr

Marc said:


> When I was reading your post regarding reasons for the leak- One thing came to mind- More support. A brace out of glass could be made to put on top on the tank to prevent bowing. But then if you do that- this would not be an ADA style tank.
> 
> You could take the same brace and put it in the tank so that the front and back pane are supported at the bottom where the leak is occurring.
> 
> It’s a shame to scrap the project with all the time and money you have put into this project.



Correct me if i'm wrong, but unless the brace on the bottom goes from front to back (very ugly) it will do nothing for his problem. 

scolley: you can always come plant my 100 with those gems :icon_bigg actually if your stand will accomodate a standard sized tank i would go that route for now, they really aren't that expensive from the right store, petland discounts has great prices on tanks, but the one in norwalk moved to a place that i can't find. This way you can fill that void between the stand and the lights, grow your rare plants and sell them in the swap section, heal your elbow, and take some time to research the silicon and clean that glass up and get er' done. 

seriously it will take a lot of pressure off and you will be more inclined to go through with this at your own pace rather than hurrying yourself. And i would forget ADA until next year. I've had a lot of experience with this type of situation (only i was fiberglassing ,and re-fiberglassing, inbetween car shows). And the stress is not worth it, not at all.


----------



## Marc

Yes the brace will go from the front to the back on the bottom. And yes it will create enough support to stop the bowing. Ugly? Well if it’s the only way to save the project he might have to do it. It’s going to be covered with gravel. Worst case, you will see the edge at the front of the tank. The glass is decently clear since its low iron.

From my understanding the reason why the tank is leaking is because of the bow in the glass. It’s causing the silicon to break free of the glass and cause the leak.

If higher grade silicon is available- that might solve the problem.

This is just a suggeastion.

Steve- hope you get it worked out.


----------



## scolley

Folks, your feedback and opinions are _much _ appreciated. Thanks.

Been through a bit of soul-searching on this one, along with discussions with the long-suffering wife. I owe it to her to not do the temporary aquarium, followed up by the big clear kahuna of my dreams later. Too much time, and too much of my attention, away from the family. I either give it up, or get it done.

I'm gonna try to get it done. But if this next attempt is not successful, and done soon, it's over. So...


1) PJAN's suggestions on the garage and stable surface are good. But if it can't stand up to a little bit of walking on a rock solid redwood deck, it won't stand up to the vibrations on the raised floor family room. So it stays on the deck. I will however buy a thicker, stiffer board for it to rest on - on the deck - and in the stand.

2) I may just get a bottom brace as Marc suggested, running I assume from front to back, against the bottom of the tank. Will have to think about it as it would be covered by substrate, but would be visible in the front.

3) I'm sticking with the current construction technique, unless someone can prove me wrong, backing it up with experience. I've reviewed my conclusions about the problems I had with the back, and am still convinced that the problems were only where I was not clamping enough.

4) The silicone has got to go. I'm not sure of the full implications of this yet, but I'm trying to find out what people have used successfully. PJAN's brand appears not to be available in the US. GE Door and Window looks promising, and I'm got a request for a quote out for tubes of GE SCS1200 structural glass silicone (thanks Salamastre - someone early in this process recommended this same thread to me - I should have paid closer attention to it then!).


Here's what I have learned about my AGA silicone:

1) It's the same as Perfecto Aquarium silicone.
2) They are both made by Dow.
3) Perfecto says it's suitable for building "small aquariums" only.
4) Dow tech support says they know their products are OEM'd by other companies, that make claims that Dow does not support for their products. Case in point - Dow tech says their position is that no Dow silicone products are suitable for aquarium construction, no matter what some reseller (like AGA) might suggest! 

Time to find a better silicone.


As for the other problems:
1) Plant deliveries - I'll see if I can get them delayed.
2) Tennis elbow - I'm not scrubbing any more. It's hard core solvents, heat guns, and maybe my Dremmel with a high speed spinning felt pad from now on. That silicone's coming off easy, or I'm giving up.
3) AGA - Timr seems to have good insight into this space, and AGA 2006 is sounding like just the right amount of time to create a really great tank.
4) The unknown "fix" - not a problem any more. Through a bit of research today, I know the silicone I'm using is not up to the task. I've found my culprit.
5) My poor shaded plants in the 20 - they'll just have to make the best of it.
6) The mess - I'm gonna get this done in a reasonable period of time - 2 to 3 weeks, or I'm buying a tank, and calling it a good effort.


Thanks again for the feedback. Any more info about silicone or construction techniques is very much welcome!


So... let's do this just _one more time_! roud:


----------



## Buck

> As for the other problems:
> 1) Plant deliveries - I'll see if I can get them delayed.


Steve if you cannot delay the plants (which somehow I must have missed that you ordered ) I have a 30 gallon (36") tank in the barn doing nothing that you can borrow until you settle your "issue" or buy a tank. roud: 
I think at this point though you have to be as much mentally drained from this as well as physically... my suggestion is to set it aside and tackle it again in a few months with a fresh outlook. You will have to dig real deep to get back into a complete overhaul now. :icon_frow

The tank is yours if you are in a pinch with the plants though Steve.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Buck. You are a saint and a scholar. I might take you up on that kind offer, but hoping I don't need to.

I am a bit whipped with this process. You guys (generally speaking) told me I was trying to do something hard. You were right. But I'm going to give it one last shot!

It's just too close to give up now. But crossing the finish line or not, this is indeed the last leg of the race.


----------



## Curare

yes my son, continue.

I think that you may be right on all accounts, and if you like I can find out what the custom tank builders here use, for building 5 and 6 x 2 x 2's so if it works for that, then it'll work for you.

Really don't wanna see you give up now man


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> I can find out what the custom tank builders here use, for building 5 and 6 x 2 x 2's so if it works for that, then it'll work for you.


How could I not agree, though there is a great chance they don't sell the same product here. But if you can find out, please do. Thanks!


----------



## timr

Ok, i see you've found that silicon is the problem. I haven't seen the statement that you are going to dissasemble the entire tank and use the correct silicon. I hope that is your plan?


----------



## Oqsy

i don't know why, but I have a really good feeling about this "last try". i'm not very superstitious.. in fact, not at all. but for some reason I feel certain that in a few weeks time there will be pics of the finished product, leak free, and ready to move into it's home. you've got it under control, and to be an even bigger star wars geek, "mind what you have learned... save you it can", and remember to avoid the "quick and easy path", because we all know it leads to pain, suffering, hate, and substandard prequels 

Oqsy


----------



## scolley

timr said:


> I haven't seen the statement that you are going to disassemble the entire tank and use the correct silicon. I hope that is your plan?


That's right timr! It should be done, but it won't be done be me. My wife's had it, and I don't blame her one bit. This has to be quick.

So if fixing this last panel is not sufficient, the torch will pass to someone that wants to buy some slightly used low-iron glass, and borrow a whole bunch clamps.

Maybe someone in Norwalk? :wink: 

Oqsy - Thanks pal. I'd feel good about it too if my elbow didn't hurt so d*mn much. But, if this does work, _oh _ how good it will feel! Elbow or not!


----------



## m.lemay

Well Steve: If this attempt doesnt work, I just might be the guy that takes that slightly used glass off your hands. roud: 

Marcel


----------



## timr

scolley said:


> Maybe someone in Norwalk? :wink:



HA, no. Not a chance. I worry about my 100 everyday on the second floor of a 100++ year old house converted to apts. There's no way i would set up another large tank. Besides i'm dabbling with the idea of breeding angels, so i need a lot of small tanks.


----------



## BiscuitSlayer

I think that the use of some type of wood under the tank rather then sitting directly on the deck planks is an important idea. I agree with you that the tank should stand up to normal foot traffic, but there is a huge difference between sitting on a stand and being subjected to foot traffic and sitting almost directly on deck planks and being subjected to the same type of traffic.

I would put this tank on something that is similar to the stand itself. Otherwise you aren't running a valid test (IMO).

I think that this can be done and work Scolley. If this is going to be your last attempt, then just take your time and think everything out first. If I lived closer, I would take the glass and keep the thread going should the next attempt fail (which it won't).


----------



## scolley

BiscuitSlayer - there's wood under the tank now, 1/2" oak plywood. The question is whether it's stiff enough or flat enough. So I'll go out and find some 3/4" MDF to replace it with, unless someone has a better idea. And I understand about your foot traffic on the deck issue, and resting on wood on the deck is not the same as on a stand. Fair enough. But first, this is a solid deck. You cannot feel vibrations when you walk. Second, this is going in my house, and quite frankly, if it is so leak prone that it has to be padded by the vibration absorption abilities of the stand, I don't want it there. 

Tank on wood, with Stryrofoam, on my deck, subjected to foot traffic, is a fine test to determine if it is ready for use in more benign conditions. I don't want a 75 gallon tank in my house that I'm afraid will start to leak if someone farts too close to it. No thanks. This is a good test.

timr - I understand. In your position, I wouldn't either.

Marcel - I would like to think we could negotiate something reasonable, if it comes to that. But I think I was letting my substrate go at a very reasonable price, and I can't seem to get you to conclude that deal.  LOL


UPDATE - Tom Barr says he uses DAP 100% Clear silicone, but I'm trying to find out if that is their "Aquarium" product that comes in the little tubes, which apparently is not recommended for tanks over G, or their regular 100% Clear Silicone product which comes in the typical caulk gun tubes.


----------



## SCMurphy

Why didn't you use the stand to test the tank? That would have given the proper support. 

I'd use the inside bottom glass brace idea, maybe three 6-inch wide braces since it is a 4 foot tank, and get the good silicone. You can 'frame' the top of the stand to hide the bottom edge of the aquarium, but I don't think anyone would notice the braces under the substrate.


----------



## pineapple

Here is a link to silicone remover, near the bottom of the page:

http://www.absealantsltd.com/sealants.htm

I'll update if I can locate the information I used to have about heavy duty aquarium sealant silicone. EDIT: But that is in the UK - so no good. I notice GE's web site states:



> How do I remove silicone products from surrounding areas?
> 
> It is VERY difficult to remove silicone from a surface. However, if you must remove it, follow the suggestions below.
> 
> On Smooth, Non-porous Surfaces
> To remove silicone sealant from surfaces, first remove as much as possible by cutting/peeling/scraping excess sealant from surface.
> o For ceramic tile, marble, Formica, fiberglass, etc., use 100% mineral spirits (turpentine) and a non-abrasive scouring pad. Test solvent on a hidden area of the surface to ensure that discoloration will not occur. If discoloration does occur, contact the manufacturer of the surface for further assistance.
> o For glass surfaces, use a razor blade to remove as much as possible, then apply mineral spirits. Remove excess as much as possible, then apply mineral spirits. Remove excess with a towel or other suitable cleaning utensil that will not mar the surface, i.e., non-abrasive pad.
> 
> NOTE: For surfaces such as hard plastics or painted surfaces, including cars, use rubbing alcohol and a soft cloth. Do not use mineral spirits.
> 
> Only use these solvents in a well-ventilated area and follow all safety precautions and instructions listed on the product label. Material Safety Data Sheets for GE Sealants & Adhesives products are available upon request. Similar information for solvents and other chemicals you choose to use with GE products should be obtained from your suppliers. When solvents are used, proper safety precautions must be observed.
> 
> On Rough, Porous Surfaces
> To remove silicone from a porous/rough surface, (concrete, brick, wallpaper) remove as much as possible (same as smooth surface). If necessary, use a wire brush in conjunction with mineral spirits.
> 
> NOTE: We do not recommend use of a wire brush to remove sealant from wood surfaces, as so doing could damage the wood. Also, mineral spirits should not be used if the wood has any type of finish on it. Test solvent on a hidden area before applying. Mineral spirits are flammable and should be used away from sparks, flames and other sources of ignition. Only use these solvents in a well-ventilated area and follow all safety precautions and instructions listed on the product label. Material Safety Data Sheets for GE Sealants & Adhesives products are available upon request. Similar information for solvents and other chemicals you choose to use with GE products should be obtained from your suppliers. When solvents are used, proper safety precautions must be observed.
> 
> NOTE: There is nothing that will dissolve silicone. If reapplying silicone to the area, remove the old sealant. Then clean the area with a disinfectant if mold or mildew is present, apply rubbing alcohol. Let dry before re-applying silicone.
> 
> NOTE: Do not use soap to clean surfaces to be sealed because silicone will not adhere to surfaces covered with any soap scum.


And this is a useful link too:

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article28.html


----------



## m.lemay

scolley said:


> Marcel - I would like to think we could negotiate something reasonable, if it comes to that. But I think I was letting my substrate go at a very reasonable price, and I can't seem to get you to conclude that deal.  LOL


LOL, Ouch.... That hurt. I'm sorry man, I've just been really busy and falling behind on lots of work stuff. :icon_frow 

Ok I'm looking you up on mapquest right now. I might have to be in Ridgefield today, so if thats the case I'll call you and stop by.

Marcel


----------



## ridns

Scolly;
I have been one of many lurkers here watching your thread. I'm an old fart incapable of trying anything like this because of my age and the fact that I'm now crippled from a stroke. My heart sunk right along with yours at every pitfall but I have no doubt of your near success. If I am reading correctly the new sealant you wish to try has a strength 4 times as great as the previous silicone. In my estimation that in itself should insure your success. Add to that what you have learned about clamping and you have gained more structural strength! Clean it well and take the time to do it exactly as you now know it must be done and I'd be terribly surprised if you have anymore problems with leaking. If additional braces give you peace of mind, go for it but I seriously doubt that you will need it. You have shown remarkable constraint thus far, don't buckle now when it almost time for your victory lap! I know you would be in awe if you only knew how big your cheering section is here in lurker land! Keep up the outstanding job!


----------



## scolley

*4 times the strength?!?*

Got lot's to say (sorry  ), but let me cut to the most important item first...

*ridns * - you said "the new sealant you wish to try has a _strength 4 times _ as great as the previous silicone". What? I missed that. Can you help me understand? There's nothing I would love more than to know about a suitable silicone that has that much more strength than the AGA. 

How did you come to that conclusion? I'm dying to know. Please - I want the same comfort!


*Other stuff...*

*Sean * - I'm not using the stand, because I'm testing the tank outside in the rain and weather, and also because I've got a ton of stuff I'm still assembling in the stand. And it's about 10 times easier when you can reach in the top.

And I'm still thinking about the braces. But if I do it, there won't be bracing from front to back. It will be side to side, up against the front edge. But let's hold the debate on that until (and if) I decide to brace it. Right now I'm trying to see what the silicone investigation will bring.


Hey *pineapple*, great link at the bottom there! Thanks. I think I'll let my wife read it if I ever get to feeling suicidal. :icon_mrgr And the GE quotes are great. I'll try the mineral spirits next time. But I especially love the GE line:

_NOTE: There is nothing that will dissolve silicone. _​No sh*t Sherlock. I've figured that one out all by my lonesome. Nice to get a bit of professional confirmation though.


*Marcel * came by! Helped me move the tank to it's new repair table and everything. Too cool - to be actually be visited by a Mod! The gods coming down from Mt. Olympus, treading on the earth among the mortals, as it were.

Actually he's clearly a really classy, great guy. But you can figure that out from his posts. What I am wondering about is "why now"? After all this time? Buck thinks I'm screwing up, so I suspect a little good spirited moderator discussion going on - "Somebody's got to make sure Steve's not doing something stupid. I mean, how many times can a brand new tank leak? What's he doing wrong, and who's gonna go check it out?" You get the idea.


*ridns * - I can't thank you enough for the kind words, and encouragement. Thanks you very much! But I do know this thread seems to have an insane following. I figure there are a number of possibilities to explain it, and I'll never know which it is:

1) People that want to do this too
2) People that would get a kick out of seeing someone crash and burn publicly
3) People that are kind-spirited, and just have well wishes for someone trying to do something difficult, and are hoping to see success.​
If I know the people on this forum at all, then the vast majority fall into category three! Thanks. And for the 1)s and 2)s out there, one of you is going to get what you are looking for real soon! :hihi: The other will just have to live with their disappointment.


Final bit of ramble... ridns, I truly am dying to know about that _4 times the strength_ thing. Really.


----------



## m.lemay

I think ridns was referring to this post and the attached link regarding stronger silicone. I think he's reffering to The GE scs1200 silicone



> Salamastre Salamastre
> 
> 
> 
> Scolley, I found a link that may be useful to you. The guy is not as tidy as you are, but he had the problem of the front of his tank bowing out and the silicon almost failing. I quote:
> 
> " Oh no! Stress marks! Isn't it fun going to the edge? Very exciting. NOT. I noticed some stress 'risers' in the joints at the top. Did I tell you about the wrong silicone used? No? Well, it seems that my assumption of the high quality silicone I was using was flawed. SCS1000, even though it has such a neat name, is generic silicone used by the construction industry. What I should have used is SCS1200. "
> 
> Silicone may be the cause, there are silicones that form bonds with glass with a tensile strenght upwards of 600 punds per square inch. Other silicones will give you less than 150.
> 
> The link is:
> 
> http://www.wizardscave.com/aquarium6.html
> 
> Don't give up!


 BTW: I had a great time at your place this afternoon. It's cool meeting fellow planted tank obsessed folks like myself. :wink: 

The tank looks great in person, and what steves doing inside the stand is really nice and neat. Once this whole thing is together he's gonna have a setup that he truly can be proud of. roud: 

Marcel


----------



## scolley

Thanks Marcel. But the pleasure was all mine. roud: 

I'm sorry to see your research on the "4 times the strength" though. I'll wager we will find that's what ridns was talking about. Which is too bad.

Because that 600lb vs. 150lb quote was not directly attributable to any given pair of silicones. It was just a generic statement. It doesn't directly relate necessarily to what I've used, or what I'm considering.

But is does appear that the gentleman in the big tank link used GE SCS1200 successfully. So that's my top candidate at the moment. Having a hard time finding it though.


----------



## BlueRam

A search on that product yields: 

http://www.piedmontplastics.com/prodtype.asp?ID=11&TYPE=400

Looks like there are a bunch on the east coast too.?


----------



## Biznatch

I read the information on the SCS1200 link you posted and found this

"Construction® SCS1200 silicone sealant is not recommended for use on submerged joints, especially where porous substrates permit water infiltration to the bond interface. However, effective aquarium applications are being accomplished. "


----------



## scolley

Yeah, got that. Trying to talk them into selling singles, vs. cases. Not sure they're going to do it.

Also, spend an hour on the phone with an industrial application silicone guru at GE. Got the real low down. Let's see if I can sum it up...

1) No manufacturer will tell you their silicone works underwater, since they all degrade underwater over time. Only someone OEM'ing silicone will make that claim.

2) Silicone's primary strength is to itself, not what it is bonded too. So if it starts to pull away in a spot in an aquarium, it is almost certainly not going to "snap" with the tension, creating only a small leak. It will hold together in one piece and if more pressure is applied, will continue to tear away from the substrate instead. Yup - found that out the hard way.

3) SCS1200 has their highest adhesion strength, twice that of their commercial grades, and an unspecified amount over their consumer grades.

4) Silicone's adhesion strength in general does not approach it's tensile strength. If you lay down a bead on top of some glass, you will be able to pull it up much easier than getting it to snap while pulling it.

5) The aquarium application requires silicones weakest strength, adhesion. Which explains why all tank manufacturers seem to lay down a really wide seam along the bottom edges of the tank. That's not just to fight water pressure, that's also to provide more adhesion surface to keep the bottom edges from ripping apart.

6) Silicones bonds very well to silicone.

7) SCS1200 will only cure to a 1/4" depth. So under my 1/2" thick glass, there can be no excess on either side while it cures. And that is 5 days at 50% humidity. More days if the humidity is lower.

8) SCS1200 is not good particularly good underwater, while some silicones are much better (like AGA Silicone?)

9) So, a very good solution is to lay down a layer of SCS1200 at the joints, wipe away the excess, and let cure for 5 days. Then to lay down a thick layer of "aquarium" silicone in the inside edges, a good distance up the sides and across the bottom for more adhesion. Wait 5 days and fill 'er up. 

Now if I can just get the silicone.


----------



## scolley

And got my answer from Tom Barr, an apparent voice of experience here. To summarize:

1) Clean, apply, clamp (many and hard)
2) DAP 100% Silicone, as found at Home Depot
3) Repaired almost 20 tanks, built as many, never lost a seal, though braces have broken.​
It's good to get the confirmation on the clamping. I consider that case closed. But I'm not happy about the silicone. He made a point about 100% silicone being 100% silicone. AGA was 100% silicone, and it didn't hold so well.

One could argue that I didn't clean the surfaces well. But if you'd been here, you'd know that wasn't true.

Now I am confused - presented with conflicting information.


----------



## scolley

*Answer from Eheim*

I wrote the following to Eheim technical support:
_I have a Pro II 2026 canister filter. I need to push the filter's output through a piece of equipment that has a slip fitting nozzle. That nozzle an outer diameter of 16mm, so it fits perfectly with the 16/22mm hoses that came with the filter. But the internal diameter of the nozzle is only 10mm.

Will constricting the flow down to that size for a few inches in that nozzle
significantly affect the performance of my 2026 canister?

And if so, what is the minimum recommended internal diameter of such a
nozzle?_​

Two days later Eheim responded:
_As long as the unit is pumping water, the motor won't be hurt, however going from 16 mm inside diameter to 10mm will considerably affect the flow rate of your pump._​

Their answer to the first question does in the strictest sense answer my question. But it is does so in such a content free manner, coupled with the complete lack of an answer to my second question about minimum diameter, I'm inclined to wonder if the person responding really knew what they were talking about.

Sound's like pure assumption to me. And for a response to be completely absent of anything that might resemble hard facts, I'm inclined to be suspicious its value.


----------



## ridns

Scolly;
Marcell was correct. Sorry to assume the info correct. That must be why you're doing this and not me right? Ok, I'll keep my lurking private and let you engineers work it out. All the luck anyway!


----------



## scolley

ridns - No my friend! Your posts are welcome! Don't feel like you have to lurk.

It it were all easy, and things didn't have to be questioned and "facts" examined, there would be no need for this forum.

So please, chime in any time!


----------



## zig

Scolley 

Another lurker giving his tuppence worth, as regards the potiential problem you think you may encounter with the restricted flow from the 10mm nozzle going into the 16mm tubing of the filter.

Why dont you do a test on the Eheim pro as this will be your main filtration, basically my idea was to get 2 large containers that will hold water, 1 of a known size say 100 litres or just measure and mark 100 litres on the inside of the container.

Fill both containers with water and then set up your filter and get it to pump from one container to the other, use the suction side in the unmarked container and the pressure side with the 10mm nozzle attached to pump into the marked container, get a stopwatch and start timing until you reach the 100 litre mark, and then calculate the flow Litre/Hour rate and this should tell you how much flow if any (hopefully) that you are losing, and compare this to the Eheim recommended flow that you would have if the 10mm nozzle wasnt used, or better still do another test the same way with the nozzle not attached and compare the results.

Does this sound plausable? at any rate it would be an easy test to do and would show if a major problem existed between useing the 10mm nozzle and not useing it.

Best of luck by the way roud: and if nothing else i hope it sparks off an idea of how to test the flow rate of the filter.


----------



## scolley

Not a bad idea Zig. Thanks.

But these 10mm ID nozzles are on both the Inflow and Outflow manifolds. And I don't have any extra nozzles. So, to do a test means hooking the filter up to both manifolds which is particularly tough on the inflow side due to it's only input being big 1" PVC openings. And I don't have any of the flex PVC ($$) that hooks up to that to spare.

So I took the cowards way out bought a couple of Y adapters, and have two parallel 16/22 lines coming out of the outflow (where the bad nozzles are) going into the Y. Then a combined 16/22 line on the Y goes into the filter. I've now got the same setup, but reversed, on the outflow.

It's not perfect. But it should get around most of the problem until I feel like rebuilding the manifolds with proper nozzles.


----------



## scolley

*Silicone Update*

Piedmont Plastics will only sell SCS1200 in cases, which cost about what an inexpensive 75g cost. Not gonna pay that.

So I've got to find another retail outlet, hoping to buy a smaller quantity. Or maybe get a sample tube, if I can talk someone out of one.

An alternative is to take Tom's suggestion on the DAP. But I've come to understand that all 100% silicones are not made the same, and I suspect that most of Tom's experience in building all glass tanks with this stuff is in smaller tanks. Otherwise when he built his all glass 75g gar tank, he would have either used 1/2" glass, or would have had a cross brace from the start. But that tank was apparently a learning experience. So I'm assuming most of Tom's experience was not with 75g (or larger) all glass tanks.

If that's the case, using DAP may be a bit of a crap shoot. Kind of like how my front failed, but back held fine. Same silicone exhibiting two different performance characteristics, based on potentially intangible installation differences.

The net here is, I'm very, very hesitant to use DAP. I've got to do more silicone research, and/or find a way to get 1 tube of the GE SCS 1200.


----------



## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

I was afraid also to loose too much flow due to the CO2-reactor of Aquamedic ( small diameter...). But I turned out ok. I still have a flowrate of 700 l/h and without the reactor it is about 750 l/h ( pump maximal according to the little sticker somewhere hidden). 
I have an Eheim Pro II ( 2028?) with internal heater and according to Eheim it will give 1050 L/h ( specs out of the book). But technically the pump can give only 750 l/h....
So there you go Eheim... not totally honest...
Still enough flow for a planted tank, which only need 1x or max 2x filtered / h.

The silicon should be ok..but I would call a local tank manufacturer and explain your problem and be honest ( even show your thread...). The are not to keen to give you information about the silicon they use, but they can give you the best answer and perhaps provide you with the correct silicon.

If you feel insecure or something is not available, I always can send you good silicon. It will take a few days to arrive (...), but it's an option if anything else fails.
So use me as back-up if you're getting frustrated ( ehhmmmm ...)

Please take my advice to use a thick board and solid underground to test the tank.
I worked with small and big tanks ( up to 300 gallons ) and always made very clear that the tanks was placed on a solid board or steel frame to prevent bending of the bottom glass. Even your tank, considered as "big" tank, should not be stressed on the bottom glass. Although you like the idea to give it a stress-test... I don't think it's a wise idea. 
I drive a normal car and not a 4x4 and to give it a stress-test in the mountains is also not a good idea.... maybe it wil hold...maybe it will be broken...

Anyway : deep bow for your unbroken spirit !! Go for it !

Gr. PJAN


----------



## pineapple

I'd be inclined to shoot Will at www.aquariumobsessed.com an email inquiry and point him to this saga thread. My guess is that an aquarium maker would not see your attempts as a threat to his/her business :wink: . That being the case, Will might be agreeable to advising you on the type of silicone to use and how to source it. In turn, of course, his mention herein would be mutually beneficial....


----------



## BlueRam

scolley:

Can I cross post you request to other forums (thinking www.reeffrontiers.com)?


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## scolley

*Multi Topic Reply*

PJAN - Thanks for the feedback on the nozzle and flow issue. Two things seem clear, if I did nothing about it, the impact would probably be minimal. And the information from Eheim is not necessarily the most reliable.

And BTW - you've almost got me talked into moving the stand outside for the test. Not completely, but I'm thinking about it. But I am definately  getting a thick, flat, stiff board - as I mentioned before 3/4" MDF. If you think that's not enough, please let me know.


pineapple - I'm real hesitant to ask someone for a trade secret. If you want to do that, and let me know, please feel free! But I'm not comfortable with it. I don't want to put them in the position of have to tell me know. I suppose it is my cultural heritage of growing up in the deep south.


BlueRam - Please feel free. But thanks for asking. The only caveat is that I'm really, really uninterested in opinions. Not to be rude, but at this point it is a waste of time to be discussing this stuff with anyone that does not have experience or other first-hand knowledge. So communicating that message in a nice, but firm, way would be appreciated.


Tom Barr update - Tom sent me a response to another query, and apparently he has indeed had a lot of experience with big, all glass, no frame tanks. He generally uses internal bracing in the top, but he has had not problem with leaks. And he uses DAP, or other Home Depot type 100% silicone products.

Go figure. Now I just have to figure out why this is working for him and not for me. I'd assume that it was the brace, but PJAN has no brace. And some manufacturers are making these without braces. But this is beginning to imply that the problem might not have been the silicone. Hey - my back pane held, and that used the same silicone.


----------



## m.lemay

Steve: from what I saw yesterday, your primary problem is bonding. I didn't get a real close look at it but I'd be willing to bet that the silicone pulled away from the shiny side and not the edge that was cut and sanded. If thats the case, this might be a simple case of taping off the bottom pane and sanding the shiny glass with some emery cloth to give the silicone something to bite onto, just on the part that recieves the silicone.

Shoot, rather than pull the front off, maybe it'd be best to turn the tank upside down and pull the whole bottom off, and give the whole bottom the sanding treatment. It's pretty much the same work and the bottom edge needs the attention since thats where all the pressure lies.

Marcel


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## PJAN

scolley said:


> PJAN - Thanks for the feedback on the nozzle and flow issue. Two things seem clear, if I did nothing about it, the impact would probably be minimal. And the information from Eheim is not necessarily the most reliable.
> 
> And BTW - you've almost got me talked into moving the stand outside for the test. Not completely, but I'm thinking about it. But I am definately  getting a thick, flat, stiff board - as I mentioned before 3/4" MDF. If you think that's not enough, please let me know.
> 
> Go figure. Now I just have to figure out why this is working for him and not for me. I'd assume that it was the brace, but PJAN has no brace. And some manufacturers are making these without braces. But this is beginning to imply that the problem might not have been the silicone. Hey - my back pane held, and that used the same silicone.


My tank has no brace as you can see in the thread...
The only thing my tank manufacturer was worried about was that the glass would snap due to bending. Not if the silicon would hold...but he always insist on placing the tank on solid underground.

Even MDF can bend...so place the MDF on good underground and not your veranda wich is uneven as I can see.
The best thing in my opinion is to test the tank on the solid stand which will provide the bottom and all 4 corners good sturdiness.

Think about your personal situation...( .... women....I know..). I definately would rule out stress situations which aren't necessary... and would place the tank on a solid underground/ stand because that also will be the situation in your house.

Gr. PJAN


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## timr

> But I am definately getting a thick, flat, stiff board - as I mentioned before 3/4" MDF


MDF in an outside environment = bad idea. All it takes is a little water and the structure of MDF is GONE (unless it's sealed or painted). If you have any scrap, wet it and see what happens. I would be inclined to double or triple up on the plywood that you are using. If you decide not to test on the stand. 



> But this is beginning to imply that the problem might not have been the silicone. Hey - my back pane held, and that used the same silicone.


I hate to say this, and i was going to say it a long time ago but i held my tounge. The original back was also held on with the same silicon, and you had leak after leak until the back started to peel off. I know you didn't get the back on as well as other sides, but as soon as you did the front had similar issues. i don't know if it's from stress of being filled up so many times and finally having the back give way, and now the back is a little stronger. Or if something wasn't quite right with the cleaning/silicon/clamping. 

I guess what i'm trying to say is, it seems like you are chasing leaks all around this tank, but you keep puting it back together the same way. Unless you change something i don't see how you can trust it. sorry for being pessimistic.


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## gnatster

GE 100% Clear Silicone GE-012A once said Aquarium Safe on the label. Why it no longer does is the source of urban legend. One says it's in deference to AGA so they can market the suff for 10x as much in lfs's since AGA uses literly tons of the stuff. Another says it because people would use it to build huge poorly engineered tanks and then sue GE when they broke. All I know is that it the 12A version IS aquarium safe, and available at the BORG for a very reasonable price. I have used this stuff in the past and have it in my current sump. My understanding is this IS the silicone that AGA, Perfecto and Oceanic all use.


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## scolley

*New Info...*

Folks, it's late (for me anyway) so I'm going to be brief (for a switch :hihi: ).

I had an awesome conversation with Del of Aquariumplant.com today that verges on the embarrassing. Aquarium Plant has been building their own tanks for a long time, many (very many) of them much (really much!) larger than what I'm attempting. And there is a whole community of people out there that have significant insight into the problems I've been having.

The information I got from Del alone (thanks Del!) was enough to proceed from. But being the methodical PITA that I am, I'm going to continue research for a day or two.

Bottom line...
1) All construction techniques are not equal.
2) All silicones are not equal.

More later... bed for now.


Thanks for the help and feedback!


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## naX

scolley,

Sometimes you have to swallow your pride. I don't find it inappropriate at all to ask other tank builders for building insight... and I was raised in the deep south as well. As far as I see it, you've given it your best effort using your own engineering. You know what seems to work and what doesn't. It's not going to hurt any to see if anyone would be willing to share their construction techniques or what type of silicone they use. If any real tank builders out there love the hobby enough, they'll be more than willing to share with a fellow enthusiast (not working for profit).

I look forward to what you have learned.


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## Oqsy

i'm also intruiged by the mysterious new revelation(s)!  the fact that it was "embarrassing" leads me to believe that there are multiple pieces of information that will significantly improve the construction of the tank. steve, get us up to speed when you're rested and ready 

Oqsy


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## scolley

*Silicone Update!*

Sorry folks - here comes another long post...  

*Things I've Learned about Silicone*
It is embarrassing how much info on silicone is out there, if I had just asked the right questions or knew where to look. Speaking to Del Goins (Oppiesilver) at AquariumPlant was a real eyeopener. They've made literally hundreds of tanks, many much larger than mine. They don't use clamps. They use GE Silicone I, which appears to be the same thing as the AGA I used. But relative to what I've been doing, they use copious amounts of silicone - wide edges.

Del also put me onto cichlid forum where there is a wealth of silicone information available. Take a look at this thread, which is awesome.

Del, who's been into DIY tank building in a major way for years, also knew that manufacturers that create the really nice, thin edges, use GE RTV products. A search on Cichlid Forum turned up GE RTV108 as a clear silicone product apparently used by manufacturers. I've got three tubes on order now. roud: 

Also, it appears that the GE SCS1200 also has a strong following, but it's really hard to get. And I'm not buying a case. If RTV108 is good enough for quality tank builders, it's good enough for me.

From talking to Del, I think I understand why my front failed, and why Tom Barr is having success where I'm not. It's about construction technique primarily. When you are using commercial grade silicone, like GE I or DAP (or AGA) it's all about the size of the seam, how far it extends onto the glass. And on the bottom, where there is the most pressure, Del apparently uses a huge seam.

All of this is consistent with what the GE silicone guru told me. Silicone doesn't really have as strong an adhesive strength as people assume. Keeping a piece of glass from popping out at the bottom would require a lot of surface for the silicone to be holding on to.

Del believes I can use small seams up the front sides with the RTV product, and I'm going to try it. But along the bottom, that seam is going to be a monster.


*Responses*

_naX _ - Gimme a break, I'm not gonna let pride get in the way of a little phone call. It's just courtesy.

_marcel _ - Your thoughts on pulling the bottom off are good. It's probably what would be best. But I think it would be a high risk operation. The risk would be causing the sides to pop seams, since the bottom is the on thing really keeping them at right angles to each other. But I do agree that the primary problem is bonding, and a light sanding or emery cloth is a good idea. I think I'll give it a shot! Thanks.

_PJAN _ and _timr _ - you guys don't like the MDF. OK - thanks. Maybe I'll test it on the stand.

And _timr_, you are correct about chasing leaks. And you are right about something having to change. But some things have changed, and there will be more changes. When I put the back on the second time, I used better pressure, and I used lot's more silicone. That's what keeps Del successful with "low grade" silicone - lots of it. So, now I've done that for the back. The front never had that, and IMO that's why it popped.

When I put the front back on, I'll be using lots of silicone along the bottom, but more importantly, I'll be using a better grade of silicone - one with more adhesive strength. Put the two together, and I think I'll be fine. Then if I test it on the stand, even better.

The only thing that isn't going to happen is me taking the whole thing apart to use the better silicone. I think the copious amounts I used when reapplying the back will be sufficient.


*Course of Action*
1) Remove the front and start pulling cleaning the glass.
2) Wait for my RTV108 and apply it, copiously along the bottom.
3) Contemplate moving the stand outside.

I'll come back later to complain about how much I hate cleaning silicone off glass.


----------



## naX

scolley,

I was in no way trying to attack you or bilittle you. I was just going based off of this excerpt from one of your posts:


> pineapple - I'm real hesitant to ask someone for a trade secret. If you want to do that, and let me know, please feel free! But I'm not comfortable with it. I don't want to put them in the position of have to tell me know. I suppose it is my cultural heritage of growing up in the deep south.


I'm very glad you spoke with someone with experience and found out what you now know. I suppose I was just trying to say that by you asking, you weren't going to be putting anyone in a place that they felt they had to tell you (unless you were holding them at gun/knife point. lol).

I've followed this thread from the beginning and I admire you for everything about it; but mostly for just sticking to it through thick and thin (no pun intended).


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## scolley

Thanks naX! No big deal. I am glad I've got the info now though. roud: 

But sure would have been nice to have had it before I began. As far as I can tell, the bottom line is pretty simple...

Silicone is weak in adhesion, though some are better than others. Once you start to get into 4' wide by more than 20" deep tanks, you are going to have to pick between wide seams or getting tougher silicon. And either way, the bottom seams will still need to be big.​
Simple piece of info. Too bad it took me this long to know about it.


----------



## scolley

*Tough to remove hard clamped glass*

I should probably mention that it was wicked difficult to get that front piece of glass off. I could not run the razor blade down one side at all. A razor was _way _ too thick. On the other side I could get it in, but it wasn't until I took a little tiny chip out of an edge trying to pull the tightly wedged razor blade out that I figured out that that wasn't working either.

I finally got it apart by pulling some 28 gage steel wire between the panes. Thinner wire kept breaking, and thicker wire would not fit. And even then, I had to get the wire in a ways, then insert a shim to keep the pressure of the glass from biting down on the wire so hard that it would snap.

So the successful technique was to slide the wire a few inches, push the shim in a bit more, slide the wire a few more inches, push the shim in further, etc. until it finally separated.

And it is worth noting that the amount of silicone on the glass is unbelievably little. In the both the vertical and horizontal seams, it's little more than a film. I think this time I'll back off on those clamps a bit. At least on the horizontal seam anyway.


----------



## Buck

Im just sitting here shaking my head Steve...LOL... You are the man ! roud:


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## Kelpie

Steve,

I read somewhere that the edges of commercial tanks have a slight internal AND external bevel so that the silicone when squeezed through forms a "button" on the outside of the seam that helps to hold it in place. I forgot where I read this but that is why I asked about the bevel before. You are learning a lot and so am I.

SAC


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## scolley

Kelpie (sacolley!) - I'd love to know where you found that info on commercial tank building...

But yeah, I've got bevels around every edge. I wanted them for cosmetic purposes on the exposed edges, and it was easier to let the glass people bevel every edge than to try to specify which edges. I was a bit concerned because simple geometry will tell you that the process is actually decreasing the surface area for silicone to bond to.

I'm pleased to find out that it is actually providing some benefit instead! Thanks.


Buck - Thanks pal. That still doesn't keep me from being potentially foolish though, does it?



On the topic of commercial tank building technique, a very kind lurker PM'ed me this link of a commercial building operation. With some interesting pics. The pictures are too tiny for my old eyes, but if anyone gets any insight from looking at the pics, please share it. Thanks.


----------



## Boofish

*re: the link of a commercial building operation*

Hello,

I've been reading your epic tank saga as well. Hope to see you come to a happy conclusion! And look, I finally have a chance to help you. I use the web browser Mozilla Firefox (version 1.04), and it has this little extension called mouse gestures 1.0.1 (think my husband installed that seperately after installing firefox, if you're interested in trying.) With it, each diagonal right click from upper left to lower right on a picture will increase it by 50%.

So after a few clicks, here's what I see (*notes and cautions on subjectivity and lack of coffee, etc*):

pic 1: 
guy picking up glass
on rollover:
guy doing something with glass... it's been cut i think he might be sanding the bottom

pic 2:
it looks like that the guy is applying something to the glass, or else very carefully investigating the edge with his finger
on rollover:
Nice clamps! Bottom clamps are little right angled frames with suction cups onto the glass. Top clamps have a big groove that fits the glass perfectly on each side of the angle.

pic 3:
This closeup seems to be featuring the groove in the top clamp... also seems to be pointing out that the edges of the aquarium don't line up perfectly
on rollover:
he's pulling at the piece of glass (front/back piece) that isn't aligned with the front edge of the side piece. It also seems there is a gap between the front/back piece edge and the side piece.

pic 4:
looks like he is drawing along the unaligned piece with some charcoal... or else it is some sort of glue/cleanser I am not familiar with.
on rollover:
close up on that nice bottom clamp. tank elevated off ground with a piece of 2"x4"

pic 5:
vacuuming the tank! (or it's an air-blower...)
on rollover:
Beginning to apply sealant in the lower corner with an air powered caulking gun.

pic 6:
applying lots of sealant. It's that black goopy stuff.
on rollover:
he stops applying just before reaching the top corner.

pic 7:
using a tool to smooth the joint out. maybe this is a good idea, cuz if you use your finger, you will only compress it into a tiny bit of the corner, not the whole width of the 1/2"-3/4" of sealant whatever is there.
on rollover:
his buddy is prepping something... maybe they're using pages of the phone book as smoothing tools, I don't know.

pic 8:
nice smoothed joints
on rollover:
this tank will have braces.

pic 9:
Wacker silicone sealant
Elastosil 121
Aquarium/industry

Well, good luck, describing pictures is not as easy as I thought it would be 

Hope to see that completed tank soon.


----------



## Hop

Wow Scolley,

You've been busy. I take a couple months away from the planted tank thing while I worked on my SW tanks and this thread is up to nearly 500 posts. You will have to excuse me while I get a pot of coffee going and spend the next 2-3 days reading your progress!


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## scolley

*Mysteries of glass thickness requirements revealed!*

Hey Hop, welcome back ! BTW though, I'm not sure if 500 posts count when 1/2 of them are mine!

You might do yourself a favor and NOT read all the thread, until I get a chance to index it... it tells a coherent story, and I think should be kept together. But I thought I would change the 1st post to one that had kind of a index to various topics/events as they happened - making the monster a bit easier to navigate.

Only problem is, I can't figure out how to post a link to a specific post? I tried what is documented in the FAQ, but I can't get it to work for me. Anybody know?


Boofish - what a great write up! Thanks. I was going to post a considered reply, but I could not help first chasing down Elastosil 121. Glad you could read that! roud: 'Cuz that led me to DIN 32622, AQUARIUMS; CONCEPTS, REQUIREMENTS AND TESTING. I'd love to get my hands on that specification. Only problem is it's $59, only in hardcover (for only 3 pages!!!) and only available in German language!

But Boofish, that lead me to this! If you have something that can read MS Word docs, take a look at the last page. It doesn't help me with silicone, but it's _everything _ you ever wanted to know about glass thickness requirements in frame less tanks! Tooooo cooool!


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## scolley

*More silicone removal lessons learned*

More lessons learned this time in glass separation and cleaning...

1) If the layer of silicone is really thin, thinner than an Exacto blade, don't try to wedge an Exacto in there. It scratches the glass, and can even chip it. Now I know. Steel wire works much better.

2) To dramatically reduce the time in removing the silicone film left over after the scraping, use a Dremmel with a felt polishing pad. Wow! What a difference that made. What took maybe 12 hours last time (and gave me bursitis in my elbow from all the repetitive motion!) took less than 6 hours this time, using the Dremmel to "polish" the film off.

3) Dust and film residue left over after the Dremmeling comes up real easy with mineral spirits, followed by a quick hit with the acetone, and you've got marvelously clean glass, at minimal effort.


So now I've just got to mask the glass off (30 minutes), and wait for the GE RTV108 to arrive. Because of the holidays, that hasn't even shipped yet, so I could easily be next weekend before time to silicone again.

Maybe I'll hit the glass with some sandpaper while I wait, or even pick up a piece of extra glass for that inside brace. :icon_wink 


PS - If you don't have a Dremmel, think about it. They seem at first like an expensive little toy. But I've found that about once a year, something comes up that I need that Dremmel for, and nothing else would do the job nearly as well. It's paid for itself many times over.


----------



## Curare

Being a modeller, There's a bazillion jobs for a dremel.

I've worn one out in my modelling career that spans 15 years.

And even then it was 20 years old!

They're great.

(L) dremels


----------



## Oqsy

curare: even though i knew what you meant, I couldn't help imagining the creature from your avatar (who/what is that?) walking down a runway in Paris between gisele bundchen and heidi klum, wielding a dremel with the grinding wheel spinning full speed. I need more sleep. 

Oqsy


----------



## Kelpie

Steve, I've been thinking about your tank.

I'm wondering if you have considered an angle acrylic frame around the bottom only of your tank akin to what used to be done in angle iron for those old laboratory tanks.

Something like this if you can find it in cast acrylic should not be very noticeable. Ahhhh but I bet you are the purest.

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=151


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## scolley

Kelpie,

I think that's a great idea. But if I do that, I'll fore go the acrylic, and stick with glass so I'm not dealing with dissimilar adhesion issues.

To accomplish the same thing in glass, all I'd need is to get 48" strip cut off of a 1/2" thick sheet. The strip length won't matter much - 1/2", 1", 2". Not going to really matter since it will go up against the front edge, show it's 1/2" width in front, and the rest will be covered by substrate.

If you think about it, the triangular acrylic would show no less, no more.

The triangular shape is ideal, but I'd kind of prefer to stick with a material who's adhesion properties with silicone I'm more familiar with.

That said, I don't think I'm going to do it. I think this GE RTV108 is going to do the trick. It's supposed to arrive tomorrow, so I'll be grabbing that silicone gun once again!


----------



## Kelpie

Okay I've decided to go with a 24" X 24" X 15" high tank with 0.5" thick low iron glass on all four sides. From what I've learned here it will be better to have a more shallow tank and it provides a better surface area / volume ratio and will get better light at the bottom (I gotta have a clam). Now here's the new angle (pun), I'm going to have the bottom braced with 2" angle marine stainless frame for strength but also for that contemp look LOL. The rest will be frameless. Now to find that glass.


----------



## Kelpie

Oh Steve,

I was thinking to frame it with the acrylic on the outside so that the glass could push on it but couldn't break the silicone.

Good luck this time. I'll be looking in on you


----------



## Curare

Oqsy.

I wouldn't mind that either you know

Funnily enough I was using the cutoff wheel last night to trip down a propeller bolt


----------



## scolley

Kelpie - you need to read this Word document. See section 7. Recently discovered, enabled by Boofish's explorations (Thanks Boo!). It confirms calculations I had already made about my own glass sizes.

Due to your short tank, and moderate sides, believe it or not, you can used 1/4" glass safely. And that will make a massive savings in your cost. But if you wanted to be hyper conservative, you could move up to 3/8", a common glass size, and still save a bundle. 1/2" is massive overkill, and will cost a major premium. Almost nobody stocks 1/2 glass, and you'll pay through the nose for it.

Also, while your bottom frame is clever, don't do it for any reason other than cosmetic. I'm no engineer, but I can tell you that you should have no problems in a tank only 15" high by 24" wide. The stresses are minor next to my 22" x 48".

I build a test tank out of 1/4" glass with sides that were 12" h x 24" L and it does not bow at all, has never leaked a drop, and is solid as a rock. You're only 3" taller than that.

But don't take my word for it, check out that doc.


----------



## scolley

*Siliconed on the side - what a mess!*

I got the RTV108 in, and siliconed the front panel on. But this time I did a few things different, and I'm sorry already for some of them...

1) I took Marcel's suggestion, and sanded some edges. Only the bottom ones since that's were the stress is. I used a little sanding wheel on my Dremmel to kind of rough up the surface a little - give the silicone something to grip a little better.

2) I put wider edges on the vertical seams.

3) I used tongue depressors to smooth out the silicone edges on the inside. A good suggestion from Del Goins.

4) I put a monster edge on the bottom seam, rising up 1.5" from the bottom, and extending back 2".​


But things didn't quite turn out as planned.

1) As soon as I buffed the glass, I began to worry about leaving little micro slivers of glass on the buffed surface. That would be worse than not buffing. I did everything I could to clean the surface off. I just hope it was good enough.

2 & 3) The tongue depressor looked like a good idea, until I began pulling up the masking tape. Then it became apparent that the edges that the tongue depressor put down were not aligned well with the masking tape edges. Those edges look horrible. When they dry a bit, I'm going to have to cut those inside edges up, and resilicone them. What a bummer.

4) The monster bottom seam look likes it could hold back the ocean. But it is just flat ugly. I just have no idea how to make that much silicone look nice. From the front it is going to completely ruin the look of the bottom 2" of the tank. :icon_frow​ Not sure what to do. And now, in retrospect, I'm concerned that it might be so thick that it will never cure. Would hate to have to rip that out too. Something to consider I suppose.

Well, live and learn. I think I'll be waiting a week before I fill it.


----------



## shalu

scolley said:


> .
> 
> 4) The monster bottom seam look likes it could hold back the ocean. But it is just flat ugly. I just have no idea how to make that much silicone look nice. From the front it is going to completely ruin the look of the bottom 2" of the tank. :icon_frow [/INDENT] Not sure what to do. And now, in retrospect, I'm concerned that it might be so thick that it will never cure. Would hate to have to rip that out too. Something to consider I suppose.


It may not be as noticeable once you have the substrate in.


----------



## scolley

True Shalu. But I'll post a pic though, and you may see what I mean.


----------



## jamesbrokman1

*glass corners*

On the tank glass you should never put a gap in the glass and fill it with silicone, it makes the tank very much more prone to leaking, and also you dont need right angle clamps, go buy a $1 roll of packing tape, the kind with the string in it, heres my 300 gallon tank with 1/2" glass and all flat polished edges and you can see the bevel on the corners of the glass, on the joint you seel with the silicone it makes it stronger


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the pics James. But I have some questions...



jamesbrokman1 said:


> On the tank glass you should never put a gap in the glass and fill it with silicone, it makes the tank very much more prone to leaking...


Huh? Was someone talking about doing that? Or maybe you referring to Kelpie's (i think) idea posted earlier?




jamesbrokman1 said:


> also you don't need right angle clamps, go buy a $1 roll of packing tape, the kind with the string in it


Without a bit more detail, I'm kind of hard pressed to understand where tape replaces the right angle clamps. If you are suggesting the "masking tape" method, which I've used in making a practice tank, it only works without the right angles if you are assembling all 4 sides at the same time. Is that what you are talking about?




jamesbrokman1 said:


> heres my 300 gallon tank with 1/2" glass and all flat polished edges and you can see the bevel on the corners of the glass, on the joint you seel with the silicone it makes it stronger


With all the overflow stuff built into the back, it appears to have the added benefit of being a kind of internal bracing. Do you have a pic of the seal along the bottom of the front, where the real pressure is? That is assuming the front is one large wide and deep panel.


Thanks again for the pics. It's always good to see success!


----------



## scolley

*Ugly bottom edge*

I lifted up the plastic sheeting I've got covering the aquarium to get a pic of the front bottom edge.










It's about 1" high, and pretty ugly. I just couldn't work that much silicone well. As I mentioned before, I'm also worried about it being able to cure properly because it's so thick. That's a lot of silicone. So, I'm thinking about trimming it down by 1/3" of an inch or so. It would help cosmetically, and could help the curing. Not sure though.

And I trimmed the botched up inside horizontal seams and resiliconed them. Maybe 30 -45 minutes work. Not too bad. The vertical seams look outstanding now. And the glass where the front panel meets the side panels does not have a bubble to be found. Since this was also improved when I replaced the back panel, I'm sure it was a matter of technique - I'll write that up later as a lesson learned.

FYI - all the pine needles and stuff you see in the pic falls non-stop into the tank. I've got it covered with polyethylene to protect it. But I've got big slits cut in the top to let the silicone "breathe" and the crud just keeps finding it's way in.


----------



## ridns

As the silicone cures the white looking part will be almost clear. Also, didn't you say on your tank stand there will be an edge of wood all the way around the bottom? How high would that wood go? Perhaps it will cover all or most of what you see.


----------



## scolley

ridns said:


> As the silicone cures the white looking part will be almost clear.


I wish that were true. I've laid this stuff out so thick that will never happen IMO. I can look at the corresponding back horizontal seam, long since cured, and the thickest parts are not clear, but whitish.




ridns said:


> Also, didn't you say on your tank stand there will be an edge of wood all the way around the bottom? How high would that wood go?


Not high enough I'm afraid. The stand covers the bottom 2 inches of the installation. In my case that's 1/2" wood base, 1" Styrofoam, and the 1/2" bottom pane of glass.

Wish I knew an answer to this one, other than wait for it to dry and cut it out. :icon_frow


----------



## Opiesilver

What size tongue depressor did you use? I should have talked with you more about application techniques using my method. It's almost an art. I think that the guy who runs Glasscages.com uses a similar method, or at least he used too.

The silicone will eventually turn clear as the acetic acid leaches out. If the seams feel hard to the touch, meaning you can't leaves a finger nail impression easily, then you should be able to add a bit of water. Fill it with about 1/8" inch of water in the bottom and the humidity will help it cure faster. I know, sounds back wards, but it does work.


----------



## scolley

Del - I used 3/4" wide tongue depressors. It made a real, real nice inside edge. Problem was I had also masked the edges off, and when the masking tape edge did not line up perfectly with the tongue depressor edge in some places, it got nasty when I pulled up the masking tape. I should have gotten more info from you on using the technique, and I should have practiced it first on some wood or something.

Thanks for the water tip. I did that yesterday. PJAN mentioned this also. And I've recently done a boatload of silicone research, and curing time improves substantially in high humidity.

As for the transparency, it's not going to happen. RTV108, as one of GE's "high performance" silicones, is not "Clear", but only "Translucent". In spots where it's thin, like my vertical seams, it may as well be clear. But along the bottom where it's thick, I think it will always be whitish.

I'm thinking seriously about ripping that inner bottom seam out and replacing it with a smaller, neater seam, now that it's about dry... 

I learned that bottom seams have to be large, but given the fact that that I'm using RTV108, arguably the highest adhesion value silicone GE makes, I suspect I overdid it.


----------



## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

Hope things turns out ok this time. 

The seam is really thick and perhaps you should give it a day or two more curing time.
The outside is maybe dry but the innerside can be still wet and not having full "stick-potential".

5 days is minumum and 7 days should be much safer...

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

PJAN - technically RTV108 is supposed to cure in 3 days. But I can still smell the acetoxy, so it's still curing. I assume because of the thickness of the seam. Even though today makes 5 days, I'm just happy that it's still curing, and not giving up because of the thickness. From my discussions with the silicone guru at GE, apparently every silicone has a point of thickness after which it will not cure, regardless of time allowed.

But I've decided to cut up some of the sloppy top half of the front seam. So with a small bit of cosmetic silicone applied to smooth that out, it will be this weekend before any water goes in the tank. Thanks.


----------



## Opiesilver

scolley said:


> As for the transparency, it's not going to happen. RTV108, as one of GE's "high performance" silicones, is not "Clear", but only "Translucent".


Now that I did not know. I always find it amazing that you can never stop learning new things.

I was so brain dead the day we talked I'm surprised you could make any sense of my ramblings.


----------



## scolley

Del - you may have thought you weren't making sense, but you were making a world of sense to me! Thanks a mil! Hey, if nothing else, you put me on to GE RTV silicones, and also to the Cichild Forum, and outstanding resource for DIY tank building!

_So just a brief update..._

I cut the top half of the ugly bottom seam off. Sorry, but I've been through way, way too much to put up with a crappy, ugly edge now.

Then I cleaned the edge, and laid down a tiny bead of silicone on top, just in case I separated any of the big seam as I was ripping off the top half. Now I'm letting it cure.

I've moved the stand out onto the deck, covered it in weatherproofing, where it awaits the tank. roud: 

I figure the tank will be ready to move onto the stand and fill sometime this weekend. But I can still smell the acetoxy. It's probably from that tiny bead I laid down yesterday. But I'll not be removing the clamps and filling the tank until at least two days elapse where I can smell absolutely nothing.

So, maybe Saturday or Sunday for try number 6...


----------



## travdawg

Scolley, would it not be easier to put a new lip around the edge of the stand?


----------



## scolley

It would be easier travdawg.

I've decided that if I can find some quarter-round molding in the right color (or stain some), I'm going to. But I would know that behind that molding was sloppy work, and it would bother me every time I looked at the tank. So I'm happy I cleaned up the seam.


I have realized that I'll probably never know if I could have completely accomplished my original objective - creating an ADA like tank. With the clearly visible seams along the back vertical edges, and along the bottom, it falls a bit short of that.

Don't get me wrong, the seams are still nice and neat. And even the big ones aren't too big. But it won't look like an ADA tank. Maybe if I had started with this RTV108 silicone I could have done it.


----------



## AlexPerez

I bet your 2nd or 3rd one will look as good or better than an ADA tank. :wink:


----------



## scolley

*Bulkhead issues*

Thanks Alex. I'm not sure if that is true. Nice of you to say though. But I am sure I'll never find out. If this one holds water, I'm calling it a day.


*Bulkhead complications*
Since the stand is out on the deck, I thought it would be a good idea to get ready to install the bulkhead gear when I put the tank on the stand for water testing. That would mean I could test the plumbing while I was testing the tank. All while it's outside where it is safe, just like I originally planned. roud: 

But nooooo. Ain't gonna work. :icon_frow 

Once those bulkheads go on, and I've hooked up the the plumbing underneath - they're on. Or at least taking them off will be a whole lot of work. Which means that after the test is over, moving the tank and stand in the house will be a real problem. Due to weight, awkwardness, and danger to the tank, I assume the tank and stand cannot be brought into the house together (tank sitting on the stand). Which means the tank will have all kind of PVC stuff hanging out the bottom.

I obviously won't be able to rest the the tank on it's bottom while the stand is moved. And I'm not going to risk resting it on its side.

Nope. I think the bulkheads and plumbing will not get tested until the tank and stand are both in the house. I suppose I'll just have to have lots of dry towels on hand that day.


----------



## eds

scolley said:


> If this one holds water, I'm calling it a day.


Let's have a show of hands - anyone other than *scolley* believe this? 

How's the rock doing?


----------



## Defchilde

scolley said:


> Nope. I think the bulkheads and plumbing will not get tested until the tank and stand are both in the house. I suppose I'll just have to have lots of dry towels on hand that day.


Just remember that the gaskets have to be installed correctly. One side is compleately smooth, with the other being grooved. The smooth side to the tank glass. It took me a couple of weeks of testing :icon_redf and the purchase of another bulkhead before I figured out what I was doing wrong.... :icon_roll


----------



## scolley

Thanks EDS. The rock clearly didn't work. My son Mickey informed me that it was lucky for him, but not necessarily for me. So he took it back. But then he replaced it with one he suggested would be lucky for me. I guess I'll use it, not because I believe it. I'm just desperate now.


Defchilde - here's a pic of one of the pieces of bulkhead hardware. In the picture, it has a ball valve on the bottom, and a white screw-in plug in the top.










So from the top, working down we can see the following:
plug -> top flange -> thru-tank threading - > rubber washer -> combined bottom flange/plastic nut -> threaded adapter - threaded ball valve

The problem with this picture is that the rubber washer is against the bottom flange/nut, as opposed to being next to the top flange where it belongs. So, installed is should look like the following:
plug -> top flange - > rubber washer -> thru-tank threading going thru the glass -> combined bottom flange/plastic nut -> threaded adapter - threaded ball valve

Please let me know if I've got something wrong. Heck, please let me know if I'm doing this right! Would be good to know, never having done this. Thanks.


----------



## Defchilde

scolley said:


> The problem with this picture is that the rubber washer is against the bottom flange/nut, as opposed to being next to the top flange where it belongs. So, installed is should look like the following:
> plug -> top flange - > rubber washer -> thru-tank threading going thru the glass -> combined bottom flange/plastic nut -> threaded adapter - threaded ball valve
> 
> Please let me know if I've got something wrong. Heck, please let me know if I'm doing this right! Would be good to know, never having done this. Thanks.


Take time to inspect the bulkhead. The top flange's underside should have a matching groove to that of the rubber washer "gasket". and the rubber washer should go between the top flange and the tank wall. I went to HD and purchased another rubber washer to be placed between the tank wall and the bottom flange (it cost about 95¢)

I was able to install my bulkheads and remove them multipule times before final instalation. You most likely can test the system outside - dismantle it - move it and then set it up in the final position.


----------



## scolley

Defchilde said:


> Take time to inspect the bulkhead. The top flange's underside should have a matching groove to that of the rubber washer "gasket".


Thanks. But there are no "grooves". The flange is just a flat, round, smooth, hard plastic surface that presses against the flat, round, smooth, hard plastic surface of the rubber gasket. No grooves.



Defchilde said:


> I went to HD and purchased another rubber washer to be placed between the tank wall and the bottom flange (it cost about 95¢)
> .


Thanks for the tip. But what does that do? It won't come in contact with any water. Does it just make that bulkhead easier to remove?



Defchilde said:


> You most likely can test the system outside - dismantle it - move it and then set it up in the final position.


Actually my problem with dismantling is only partly the bulkheads (which go thru the bottom, not the back BTW). It sounds like from your experience it's not hard to get the bulkheads off. My problem is this...









Of which the flexible PVC pipe, once installed, is bonded to one of the two large inflow holes on this manifold...










On both ends of that flexible PVC is a end that screws into something. Either the ball valve on top, or the manifold on bottom. But once the flexible PVC is bonded into place, I won't be able to unscrew either end without cutting the PVC.


----------



## PJAN

Mmmm,

What a PVC-monster... Glad I decided to go with transparant in/outflow.. :wink: 

Good luck with it, clear the glass good ( sand ) before plugging the thing.

PJAN


----------



## Defchilde

PJAN said:


> Mmmm,
> 
> What a PVC-monster...


I agree....



scolley said:


> Thanks for the tip. But what does that do? It won't come in contact with any water. Does it just make that bulkhead easier to remove?


My bottom flange did not have a flat side to abut the tank wall, so I used it to dissipate the pressure over a wider area, less chance that the pressure would crack the tank wall.


----------



## Salamastre

Pjan, I first read your comment '_clear the glass *god* (sand)_', and tought you were suggesting some kind of sand libation to the Glass Gods. 


I think that is actually a good idea: Lucky Stone + Sand Libation to the Glass Gods.

:icon_bigg 

Sorry I have nothing to contribute but a lame attemp at humour. :icon_redf


----------



## scolley

Yes, it is a PVC monster. But so far, my only regret is not being able to make it smaller. The plumbing, when finished, if it works, is going to be really cool. But it _absolutely does not _ follow typical KISS methods. "Keep It Simple Stupid" leaves out all sorts of nice functional possibilities.

Let's let a nice time trial and functionality testing be the judge of the "monster". It could be awesome. If ugly. And big.


Salamastre - is it possible that you've hit on what I've been doing wrong all this time? No offerings to the glass gods? What would they want? I'm game!


----------



## Salamastre

At the risk of extending this too much... since Glass and Silicone are made of Silicon (the element Si), a good offering of prime grade Silica Sand could be good. Maybe the ritual sacrifice of some computer chips (also made of Si) would be better appreciated by the Glass Gods.

Just make sure to take some pictures.


----------



## RoseHawke

Good grief, Steve, I'm "gone" (read my post here for the scoop) for a couple of months and you write a dang _novel!_ 

Man, you've got more patience than I have, I would've given up long before now. Or maybe not. The Scot has quite the hold on me. If I've spent a good bit of $$$ on something I will _not _let it beat me, no matter the emotional cost!

Okay, I've mostly just skimmed this thread (it's a monster !) so if somebody else has already mentioned this you've quite welcome to just excise it and go your own way. This is just an observation I made from looking at your pix in the thread. If you're letting the tank sit on that table while the silicone cures, don't you think that due to the fact that it hangs off each end a bit, that the deflection from the weight of the panels might be contributing to seam failure? Maybe it's not deflecting as much as I think, but it seems like just a little bit. It's curing into a (however small) bow-shape, and then being set up in a more level position which it seems would stress the joint. 

As I say, this is just an observation from a (decidedly) uneducated observer.

When I've got more time I'll have to go back and actually _read _this entire thread !


----------



## scolley

RoseHawke said:


> I would've given up long before now. Or maybe not. The Scot has quite the hold on me. If I've spent a good bit of $$$ on something I will _not _let it beat me, no matter the emotional cost!


Ever see one of those movies... where the clearly whipped prize fighter is on his knees in the middle of the ring... blood dripping from the corner of his mouth... and his manger is straining through the ropes whispering "Stay down for god's sake! Stay down!"

I'm there now. But I'm gettin' up.​

And thanks for the observation on the glass. What I expect you did not notice is that as the glass is curing, there are large vertical J clamps keeping what you are describing from happening. And this is real thick glass. I think it takes a lot more than it's own weight to make it bend. I think.  Actually, it _is _ a good point.


Salamastre - I've got some pure quartz sand in the garage that I was going to use in the tank. That would work, right? Too bad Connecticut doesn't have any volcanoes I can throw it into. I mean, how else are you supposed to sacrifice sand?


----------



## Oqsy

scolley said:


> I mean, how else are you supposed to sacrifice sand?


you could eat it, perhaps?
i have lots of little packs of "pure silica gel" lying around in my 3 year-old daughter's room... I'm sure it's safe to eat. I don't see any warnings on the package anywhere. You'd think that if silica were poisonous they'd at least put a little note on the packages. 

[/SARCASM]

to say something on topic:

things are sounding promising, scolley! i'm anxiously awaiting your final and successful fill test. i think you're plumbing plans are very clever. as for the problems with testing it indoors... I guess it's the price you pay for using the more complicated configuration, but it seems like it will be worth it. 

Oqsy


----------



## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> <snip>...I think it takes a lot more than it's own weight to make it bend. I think.  Actually, it _is _ a good point.


Yah, hopefully not grasping at straws here. The only other thing I can think of might be whatever method you're using to tool the joints. Personally I hate silicone, I was never able to get a good, tight, clean and pretty joint (using it for sealing in the bath) until I ran across someone's mention of dipping their finger in acetone first. IMHO for small joints like that a finger is still the best "tool."

Unfortunately I believe the joints on your tank are waaaaayyyy beyond using a finger!


----------



## scolley

*The Gods of Glass must be appeased!*

The sacrifice has been made. Time to fill the tank!

FYI - the picture below was made AFTER my son filmed a movie of the offering being made. _You should really click the link, here or below_ to see it if you have broadband. Really.










I've made a few different formats of the video for your convenience (if one doesn't work of you). This MPEG is 6.5 meg, or this AVI is 12 meg, or this WMV is 3.5 meg, but IMO viewing one sacrifice videos might be worth the wait. :hihi:


----------



## turtlehead

HAHA!! That's hilarious! Good luck with your tank! roud:


----------



## JeffB

Steve

LOL
I have been following the thread from the beginning. With every thing you have gone through with this tank, you have not lost your sense of humor. roud: 

I cannot wait to hear you announce the successful completion of your dream tank, you deserve it!


----------



## John P.

It happened! You've officially lost your mind!  I love it!


----------



## Curare

Classic scolley

Just a word of warning about those barbed connectors on your system.

The threaded ends have a tendency to weep under high pressure.

Even with teflon tape on them, I've still found that they weep, so I use a product called SWAK by swagelok to make sure they don't. it's teflon goo and is pretty good.

Just my 0.02c


----------



## Hydro

scolley said:


> The sacrifice has been made. Time to fill the tank!
> 
> FYI - the picture below was made AFTER my son filmed a movie of the offering being made. _You should really click the link, here or below_ to see it if you have broadband. Really.


Priceless. Absolutely priceless!  

Good luck Steve.


----------



## zig

HAHA.........brilliant........great video......yep definatly losin it, but it should work :icon_bigg :tongue: :tongue: :tongue:


----------



## Buck

LMAO !!!!! 

That is just awesome Steve, you have now crossed over into the Twighlight Zone bro ! I hope the neighbors werent watching... :icon_bigg :icon_bigg :icon_bigg


----------



## scolley

*Attempt #6*

Thank folks! Hoped it would be worth a few chuckles! It was certainly fun goofing off! At this point folks, any thing could happen - so you've _got _ to laugh!

We made the offering yesterday, then filled that puppy up!











I haven't done EVERYTHING I could do to make this successful - like additional bracing. But I've done a reasonable amount...

1) Got Industrial grade silicone, reputedly used by tank manufacturers
2) Abraded the glass along the bottom to help adhesion
3) Cured the silicone in a high humidity environment for 9 days
4) Moved the stand out onto the deck to put the tank on
5) Got a new 3/4" board to go under the tank, along with the Styrofoam
6) Got a new lucky rock
7) Took a brief, tongue-in-cheek foray into creative polytheism​
It was still holding tight this morning. And yes, I did install the bulkheads, all five (major PITA!). If this holds water, I'm going to attribute it to 1-5 above. 6 and 7 are just for ha-ha's.

So maybe today I'll get to finish the plumbing and turn on the filters!

Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## m.lemay

Steve: that video was hilarious. I LMAO! The whole "planted tank" community is behind you with support and I'm sure I speak for everyone here when I say that we want you to be succesful. This thread has over 20,000 views... that in itself is a testament to how much support you got here. roud: 

Besides I have a 4ft 120gal in my future thats contingent on your success.  

Marcel


----------



## PJAN

Scolly,

What a small typo ( god in stead of good...) can do to you :icon_roll 
Sorry for that, I will try to write correct English...

But what a TANK ! AMAZING CLARITY ! Nice seals ! Looks very good on the picture !

I am still jalous about the clarity. Hey, I might even glue myself a crystal clear tank roud: Mmmm, I have to do it sneaky... and change it when my wife is in town shopping or so...

Good thing you decided to test it on the stand. Much better stability.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Oqsy

looking great scolley. so, giving the size of the seam you used before, the size of the seam you used with the RTV, and the size after you cut it back... what size seam would you recommend for someone building a tank exactly your dimensions from the start, now that you have the experience. (clarified: bottom seams)

i say you should just leave it where it is as a natural mosquito habitat... maybe throw a little sludge from the gutters in there, and you're set. i think mosquito-tope is something i've never seen on this site...


----------



## timr

I'm a little nervous as i live very close to this weirdo..... :wink: 



GOOD LUCK!


----------



## scolley

Wow... lot to reply to.

*Tank Progress Update*
No leaks, no probs today. roud: And got 2/3 of my plumbing hooked up! I got some PVC compression couplings from HD (never seen those before - very cool) that allowed me to hook up at least one of the bulkhead drains without worrying about having to cut stuff to disassemble it.

So... I've got bulkheads taking the water out, flowing though non-leaking manifolds that combine the flows, run it past a temp probe, a pH probe, and an electrical ground probe, then distribute the water to multiple flow loops. The processing loop (CO2, heat, UV) will not move over until I shut down my 20g). But the primary filtration loop, using my Eheim Pro II, is working great. As is my polishing loop, which uses my old HOT Magnum. And all of it return through a non-leaking outflow manifold that splits into two glass lily pipes I got from IUnknown.


*General Gratitude*
Marcel pointed out the large following this thread has. Thanks a mil' folks!

I hope the silliness this weekend was at least a modicum of payback for your tireless support. As I've struggled with this, it has been a comfort knowing that support was there. Even you guys that never say anything, I really do appreciate it. Thanks.


*Responses*
Curare  - I've got a US version of that goo. Messy stuff. I was hoping not to use it. But if something starts weeping, I'll reach for it. Thanks.

M.Lemay - It is my earnest hope that your 120g will be a lot easier. Maybe you'll be a good guinea pig for my "lessons learned" thread when this is over. :wink: I'd be honored to help if you need it.

PJAN  - in that photo there was a lot of condensation. It's real humid right now. But I kid you not, sometimes where there is not condensation, and the tank is full to the top, I have to do a double-take to see if the tank is still full, or completely empty. They look kind of similar. The clarity, I think, is going to make this all worthwhile.

Oqsy  - you question is only meaningful if we assume this is going to hold. So I'll answer, but within that assumption...

I can't answer your question - I don't know. IMO my seam was overkill on the bottom of the front with the RTV. If you could see the vertical RTV seams, they are almost none existent. Scary tiny. So if they hold, I'm going to assume that my bottom RTV seam could have be smaller than my bottom "normal" seam in the back. In which case I'd say along the bottom, with RTV, 1/4" high and extending 1/2" to 3/4" back toward the middle from the edge.

Bottom line, the RTV should need much smaller seams than my "normal" back. If you need me to measure them before I write all this up in a few weeks (hopefully), let me know.

Mosquitotope! You are too funny! You may also be psychic. I'm not going to talk about where this aquascape is going right now, but I think I'm going to have to change my AGA Aquascape registration name to "Mosquitotope". Very little else will have to change. Just wait and see!  


timr  - What makes you think I haven't already figured out where you live?


*Forward Planning*
Bottom line, it's only been 1 day. The last try popped on day 5 or something wacky like that. I've got to go on a biz trip for a few days, which is just as well, as I'd go nuts looking at this tank, waiting for time to pass. But I figure I'll give it 10 days or so, after that I tear down the "Mosquitotope" :hihi: , and move it inside.

But ALL THAT is ASSUMING it doesn't pop. To date, 5 have. So I'll just pass the time with my fingers crossed. roud:


----------



## scolley

*Weeping connections*

Discovered small, 1 or 2, spots with weeping leaks overnight. Not a big deal, but I'm leaving for few days. So I turned off the pumps, closed all the ball joints to take the pressure off the plumbing.

I'll deal with it this weekend. Doesn't look too bad. Just another PITA.

Here's another pic of the tank, but finally one with no condensation. Hopefully it will still look like this when I return home at the end of the week.


----------



## travdawg

Steve, that thing is beautiful. I am so envious of not only your tank, but everything that you have done. I lack the skill & tools, but especially patience to deal with this kind of thing. I commend you on the patience alone. I would have busted the hell out of all that glass, dug a big hole beside the patio & swept it all in there.


----------



## hueyn

Steve,

It is looking amazing! roud: 

Thanks,
Huey


----------



## scolley

Thanks huey. Thanks dawg. I like how it looks too! Thanks. But I'm trying not to get too excited. It hasn't had water in it for even 48 hours yet. But I think it could look even better with some substrate, plants and critters! roud:

Dawg - I suspect you would have found that you had reserves of patience you never knew existed, every time you thought about what you'd spent on that d*mn low-iron glass! I know I did.

BTW - it's worth mentioning at this point that that's all the equipment anyone will ever see in that tank. That's worse case. Almost all of the bulkhead stuff at that bottom will be covered by substrate. And the three risers (2 drains, 1 yet to be discussed port!) should be hidden by plants and/or hardscape. That pic is as bad as it gets! _"Look Ma! No wires!"_


----------



## fedge

I know you must love the idea of do-it yourself but... sheesh i think for all the stress you have gone through and the nightmares of drowning in a water in the middle of the night I would almost go and BUY a tank...lol


----------



## timr

scolley said:


> timr  - What makes you think I haven't already figured out where you live?



I'm still nervous, no more than before.....


----------



## scolley

fedge said:


> I know you must love the idea of do-it yourself but... sheesh i think for all the stress you have gone through and the nightmares of drowning in a water in the middle of the night I would almost go and BUY a tank...lol


Great point! But I DON'T love the idea of DIY. I'm too freaking busy for this. But I did have a few other things that were important to me when I started that left me little choice:

1) A frame-less tank (ADA like).
2) Having cosmetically lovely glass edges and small, very neat, silicone seams. This implies not buying from vendors that do not have a proven, and consistent record of providing such.
3) Not spending more than $1000 on a tank, including shipping. Hoping to hit half that.
4) A low iron (clear) tank.
5) A non-tempered bottom, to allow bulkhead holes to be drilled .​
Putting those criterion together made me undertake this nutty idea.

I know most people will not have all of these same criteria. But I really hope that by documenting this process, I can help other people that have objectives 1 thru 3 above. But if you leave off the low-iron requirement, and learn from my mistakes, I suspect this could have been done for less than $300. roud:


----------



## shalu

I don't have the skills and patience for a project like this(ok, mainly the skills, I admit), but I am envious of the end results! Great looking tank roud:


----------



## fedge

Hoping to hit half 1000.00???? Man i think your time would equate to over 1000.00 in labor LOL!!! he hehe.. Ok, you are persistant. I would never attempt it. I plan on buying a 125 gallon oceanic or all glass aquarium when we get out own house and move out of this rental. That is the most extreme im going for. But this thread has been more than entertaining.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Shalu!

Fedge - I should explain... I desperately wanted a tank that had all the criteria I listed. But the only way I could find to get it was to spend a grand or more once shipping was added. I decided I definately wasn't going that route!

But I figured if I could build it for half that, it might be worth it. If this thing doesn't pop again, I think I'll happy about that decision.


----------



## scolley

*New record for time filled!*

Well, last time it popped on day 4. Now it's day 5, and technically, it's gone beyond the time we filled it, and are working on the 6th 24 hour period of being filled with water.

Or at least my wife tells me it's still full to the brim (if full of mosquitoes by now).

New record for filled time! Yahoo! Maybe, maybe, _please _ maybe it's going to be OK this time....


----------



## aquaverde

Best of luck with this most excellent project. Beautiful tank, Steve.
No leaks!


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## andyg

Steve, I have been following the tread almost since the beginning. I can only admire your patience with this project. It is truly an amazing tank.
Keeping fingers crossed for you.
Andy


----------



## scolley

Thanks Andy. Thanks James. I appreciate the finger crossing, since the real test is going to be this weekend.

When last try failed, it failed very shortly after I had been grilling on the deck - same deck the tank is on. I assume the vibrations kicked up by my running back and forth to the grill was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Well, I'll be grilling this weekend. But this time, assuming good weather, we'll be eating out on the deck too. That means kids on the deck too. It will be a rougher test than what the last one went through.

Since the flooring in the house where the tank will go is more sturdy than deck (less subject to vibration), then if this tank can survive a night of the family grilling on the deck, then IMO it'll be ready for the house! (But I am nerveous... :icon_neut )


----------



## Curare

Just another thought on the whole shebang scolley, you're probably right to do some strenouous testing, lets just hope it's not destuctive testing!

Seeing as the tank is outside in the heat-cold extremes, it's probably putting most of the joints unders stress most of the time, seeing as generally most aquariums stay at one temperature.

If it survives the grilling escapade, I'd say she's a goodun!


----------



## scolley

*Stress vs. Destructive testing*



Curare said:


> ...you're probably right to do some strenuous testing, lets just hope it's not destructive testing!


You are exactly right. The question is, of course, how do you tell the difference? When does good precautionary stress testing turn into destructive testing?

I know I don't know. That's why I'm nervous. I'm SURE that if it lives through my two heathen adolescent boys frolicking on the deck (not to mention my own heavy footed dashes to the grill to rescue my too long neglected food), then it will have no problems at all in my house.

I suppose this opens up a major question in the whole DIY tank building thing. Do you want to build a tank, testing lightly and always treating with it kid gloves? Or do you risk destructive testing in exchange for peaceful sleeping at night, but risking more painful re-work if you cause a leak?

I'll risk a re-work. I place a high value on peaceful sleep!
_
(I also have a very significant lack of courage when facing the prospect of talking to my wife about the 75 gallons of water she found on her floor!)_


On another note and BTW, IMO having global forum is just _way cool_. It's really neat that as I end my day (and probably subject to sloppy thinking, I get a comment from someone on the other side of the world providing some fresh and clear-headed thinking. roud: Sorry for the ramble, I just think that is really cool.


----------



## Buck

Are you home now Steve ? Almost sounds like you are still away but on a laptop and saying Honey, do me a favor... go see if the water level is still up ? ...LOL 
Oh yeh, Got the plants on tuesday man... Thanks :icon_bigg 



The man On A Mission ! said:


> Well, I'll be grilling this weekend. But this time, assuming good weather, we'll be eating out on the deck too.


 Speakin of that Steve, Im thinkin in 3 weeks or so of having that barbeque we talked about at the house. 
I got a fire pit, horseshoe pits , a dirt bike, a quad , a 2 1/2 mile dirt road , *a planted tank* , a grill , a smoker and a really big cooler so I'm sure we can manage some fun for a few hours or days.
Maybe me, you , Marcel , Mark (bastalker) and the wives/kids can get together. For that matter anyone else at this site thats willin' to take the drive to Lebanon , CT is always more then welcome to come. 
I have plenty of room for tents and I have hookups (water/electric) for one camper and also one guest room available if anyone is into campfires till midnight (or later) ...and dont want to make the trip in one day. :wink:

Back to the matter at hand... I think you finally got it licked, If it aint leaked yet , what are the chances !?! 
And on the testing issue ?? You should always test to the extreme , (1.5 x operating load)...if it passes that then it will never fail under normal diress, dang near impossible ! 

Congrats Steve... this will be a tank to be very proud of. roud:


----------



## lumpyfunk

scolley said:


> I'll risk a re-work. I place a high value on peaceful sleep!
> _
> (I also have a very significant lack of courage when facing the prospect of talking to my wife about the 75 gallons of water she found on her floor!)_


I couldnt agree more, I am pulling for you as the true test comes up this weekend roud:


----------



## cprroy73

Steve I am happy to hear your tank is still holdin water. I don't know how you scrape or scrub algae off but that is in the back of my mind. I use one of those scrubber wands. Sometimes I have to scrub pretty hard to get stubborn green spot off the glass. Even though my tank has a top and bottom brace I still think about popping a seam or something. Just in my head I guess. Maybe I will get one of those magna float things. Anyone know how well they actually work?

Well good luck this weekend.


----------



## scolley

Wow. Bedtime so pls forgive the disconnected flow of words here...

Yes, am traveling. Back tomorrow though. Camp/fire/fun sounds like a thing we would not miss (with or without kids)! Sounds like tooo much fun! (Can I bring beer? food? cuban cigars?) Am open to any reasonable alternative (overnite or not), tent or not. My only constrain is that I will be with the family in a little lakeside cabin somewhere in the hills of Vermont Aug 20-27th. Everything is is can-do!

To Buck and "funk" - yeah seems better to be safe than sorry. I can patch another side if I have to. But 75g on the floor at my house is called "hell to pay". :hihi: 

But please, please, please, no congrats yet! You trying to jinx me!!! I'm not there yet, just ooooh so close!


----------



## lumpyfunk

Is there any chanch your son will film your nervous / excited approach to the BIG CLEAR KAHUNA after your trip. Kinda like a mastercard comercial. . .Knowing how your tank is Priceless


----------



## Buck

I dont think my sides can take another movie...Im still chuckling over the first ! :tongue:


----------



## Oqsy

what codec do i need to view that avi? it crashed my winamp and windows media player... any clues?

Oqsy


----------



## scolley

*sacrifice video in new formats now*

Osgy - here's the codec info. But you shouldn't need it, hopefully, because I converted the AVI to both a WMV file that's about half the size, and an MPEG that about a quarter of the size. 

I put the links to the new files in the original sacrifice video post. So you might want to go back and check it out. One of them ought to work for you.


AVI Codec info:
Video Codec: Motion JPEG
Duration: 40.8 second
Framerate: 15.00 frame/s
Bitrate: 2532365 bps
Frames Count: 612
Width x Height: 320x240


----------



## Clone

> Maybe I will get one of those magna float things. Anyone know how well they actually work?


One of the best aquaruim inventions ever. Maybe a bit of an overstatement but they really work. Watch your fingers. My magfloat has given me more than one blood blister :icon_roll . The magnets are very strong and snap together with force, whether your fingers are between them or not.


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the tip cprroy73. And the tip about the tip clone. :icon_bigg 

Yeah, I've got one of those things already. And have already learned about the blood blisters the hard way. Ouch!

Came home to a full tank last night. Woo hoo! Now it's has to live the through the "full family deck test" tomorrow. In the interim I've turned the two filtration systems on, running normal filtration and polishing in parallel, and I can't find the weeping leaks. Or maybe I should say, it's not leaking anymore.

Not sure what that's about - phantom leaks. If it stays gone, I'm not going to sweat it.


----------



## Oqsy

scolley said:


> Not sure what that's about - phantom leaks. If it stays gone, I'm not going to sweat it.


you might have used the right word there... "sweat"
it's possible (all depends on the weather there) that the leaks were actually just collected condensation if the water you used to fill the tank was significantly cooler than the outside temp. think of a cold beer on a warm summer day.. the beer doesn't leak through the glass (although some of us would probably be better off if we only ended up with half of what we consume). did you actually witness the water coming through the joints, or did it just appear to be "dripping" from elbows, low points, etc? if the temp was up, humidity was up, and the water you used to fill was cool-ish, then it's very possible.

as for the video codec, thanks for posting the other formats! my wife walked up behind me when she heard the music, and looked at me, said "what is... nevermind..." and just walked away. it took me 10 minutes to explain the drama behind this thread, the suggestion of appeasing the glass gods, etc. now she's behind you, too. best of luck on the deck bbq test. so in show business it's a jinx to say "good luck" so you say "break a leg"... in tank building perhaps we should say "break a seam!"

Oqsy


----------



## timr

Oqsy said:


> so in show business it's a jinx to say "good luck" so you say "break a leg"... in tank building perhaps we should say "break a seam!"
> 
> Oqsy


spring a leak?


----------



## PJAN

timr said:


> spring a leak?


"Go with the flow"


----------



## scolley

Oqsy said:


> did you actually witness the water coming through the joints, or did it just appear to be "dripping" from elbows, low points, etc? if the temp was up, humidity was up, and the water you used to fill was cool-ish, then it's very possible.


Never saw water coming from any joint. And the temp was way up, humidity nearly 100%, and the water was somewhat cool. Maybe it was just condensation.

I've had the plumbing running almost 24 hours now, and it's dry as a bone inside the stand. So I'm not going to sweat it. :hihi: 


_Go with the flow.
Spring a leak.
Break a seam._​
All great sentiments. Thanks! How we mix it with a bit of pop culture, and "_Bust _ a seam!"


----------



## PJAN

Hallo Scolly,

It sounds good. I really think it was ( or is ) important to get the tank on a sturdy bottom-board... 

Well, after your party you can move the tank into the house!

"start swimming, dude"

Gr. PJAN


----------



## RoseHawke

:icon_eek: I'm still in shock over that movie ...

Must be the snow that y'all get in the winter ...


----------



## scolley

*The problems with Bottom bulkheads...*

PJAN - I think I've posted this about 3 times... I've GOT a flat, thicker, stiffer board now. Got one before I refilled the tank. And this in itself was a problem. I'll elaborate below...

Cindy - LOL! You really had me chuckling! I could see that little affair upsetting good Alabama sensibilities. :tongue: I was raised a Baptist, like half the state, and you gotta know I don't take that seriously. It was just high time for having a little fun! :icon_wink


The "full family deck test" is tonight". If the tank survives that, I'll not be declaring victory until (_unless _  ) the tank also survives being broken down again, moved inside, hooked back up (bulkheads and such), and holding circulating water in the house. Then the champagne gets popped!


*The Problem with Bottom Bulkheads*
I'll just list the ones I've learned to date.

1) _Everyone _ makes tanks with tempered glass bottoms, so bottom bulkheads almost certainly mandates custom tank building for many tank sizes.
2) The hardware adds cost
3) Having the holes drilled can add very significant cost. Or if you drill them yourself, significant risk.
4) I'm told it destroys the resale value of the tank.
5) Any padding, or support (Styrofoam, boards) under the tank have to have matching holes cut and/or drilled. So getting a new board is a PITA.
6) The hardware takes a lot of space under the tank that must be accommodated. In my case, it also meant that I had to remove the drawers from the stand (drawers would have been nice).
7) They limit aquascaping options. You've got equipment to hide. But more holes increases your flexibility.
8) You significantly increase your opportunities for leaks.
9) Moving your tank involves a potentially non-trivial disassembly process. It's not just drain water, pull out hoses and move.​
And for everyone of these factors, except for #1 and #7, it gets worse in direct relation to the number of bulkhead holes you have.


----------



## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> Cindy - LOL! You really had me chuckling! I could see that little affair upsetting good Alabama sensibilities. :tongue: I was raised a Baptist, like half the state, and you gotta know I don't take that seriously. It was just high time for having a little fun! :icon_wink...


Don't assume everyone in this state is a Baptist :wink: ...
I hope it hangs together, I've got my 55 emptied and Sunny's fixing to help me move it outside so that I can go after it with the hose. Heck, I'm sweating *that*! I wouldn't even want to think about moving the "Big Clear Kahuna!" Best of luck!


----------



## scolley

*Testing is Complete!*

Wooo hooo! :bounce: Testing is complete!

8 days out on the deck, and one night of the "full family deck test", including kids running and raising general heck on the deck (you should have seen me biting my tongue while that was going on...  ). The Big Clear Kahuna took it all in stride. Not a drop outside, not a budge in a seam, not a drop inside the stand.

Now time for the breakdown and move into the house! At last.


PS - it's not over yet. This will require serious disassembly, and significant opportunity to "bust a seam". It is one heavy sum "B".


----------



## turtlehead

Wow, good luck on the move!


----------



## Buck

Now thats great news... :icon_bigg 
Persistance pays off Steve !!


----------



## bigstick120

That is great, your patience has paid off and hopefully your reward will be a water tight tank!!!!


----------



## andyg

Congrats Steve. Still keeping fingers crossed that the move will be a smooth and dry one roud:


----------



## PJAN

Great news Scolly !

Can't wait to see the first pics with some water-plants-fish !

Gr. PJAN


----------



## m.lemay

Now, you're getting to the fun part......aquascaping.

Actually, I'm sure the tanks building and plumbing manifold had some fun attached to it too, even with the frustration.  

Marcel


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks. At times it seemed like this part would never happen. But it did! Glad I stuck with it. And as always, your support made those decisions easier. roud: Thanks.




m.lemay said:


> Now, you're getting to the fun part......aquascaping.
> 
> Actually, I'm sure the tanks building and plumbing manifold had some fun attached to it too, even with the frustration.
> 
> Marcel


But I'm _not to _ the fun part yet. (Even though rumor has it that some of us are having fun... ) I've still got plumbing issues and hardscape problems. Not to mention, tear down - move - rebuild, before I can even think about plants and fish.

I'll write up the plumbing issues later. At the moment I'm focusing on my driftwood. I've got some driftwood (well wood anyway), that's pretty water logged, but not completely, so if floats. It is just too big to boil, though I did boil ends of it (big piece of wood sticking out of a pot on the stove is pretty funny looking) So I've had it in a big cooler for weeks, held underwater by rock. But it still floats. So I've got to try to drill some slate to attach it to. 

This is holding me up because I need a full tank to see if this stuff will sink. And I'd rather not be messing around with big pieces of dripping wood in the house. Once it goes in, I'd like it to say in. I'm sure my wife would too.


----------



## fishyboy

Just get some slate, drill and use stainless steel screw(s) Can't wait to see the tank up and running


----------



## m.lemay

If I remember correctly, those pieces of wood are cypress, which is a soft wood. You're definitely gonna have to weigh them down.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Fishboy. Will do today!

For every minute I've spent on the tank (goodness knows that's a large number), I've spent 30 seconds on aquascaping plans. So I'm hoping it will look good!

But truth be told, building something that works is one thing. Building something that is beautiful and creative is another matter all together. Time will tell!


----------



## Jason Baliban

Finally!!!! I have been checking this stressful thread forever now!!! I am so pumped for you!!!

jB


----------



## scolley

*Temporary Filter Question*



Jason Baliban said:


> Finally!!!! I have been checking this stressful thread forever now!!! I am so pumped for you!!!
> 
> jB


Thanks a mil' Jason. But I hate the think this was causing _you_ stress. Or anyone else following this! I thought that was _my :icon_frow _ job. Sorry. But things are looking better now!


*Temporary Filter Question*
My CO2, UV, heater and ferts are in-line on my 20g. And I'll be moving them all over onto my 75. They are all currently powered by a little Eheim Eco, and doing just fine. My intention was to move the whole shebang over to my 75, and let that run parallel with my Eheim Pro II, with the Pro II performing most of the filtration, and the little Eco doing the same work it did on the 20.

I don't really need the Eco for filtration I don't think. But it should help boost the circulation, and it will filter the water before it gets to the in-line stuff. A needed function.

My problem is, I need to move the CO2, at the very least, not long after the plants are in. Which means moving the Eco to push it. But I can't move the Eco because it's providing filtration for the fish in the 20g. Obvously I won't be moving any of them until I can confirm that the tank has cycled, or that it will be successfully "cycle-less".

So I need to move the Eco before I move the fish.

I've got an Eheim hobby pump. A small one. Is there any way I can rig some kind of crude in-line filter for it? Just in front of or in back of the hobby pump, so I could push clean water thru the CO2 and other in-line stuff? That is temporarily until I'm ready to move fish and the Eco?

If so, any suggestions? Thanks.


----------



## Oqsy

you can adapt some large pvc down to hose size for the hobby pump, and fill the pvc with filter media... not very fancy, and it would have to have some kind of gaskets or O-rings in it, since cementing it wouldn't allow you to clean / change the media... a thought, though. if you are as adventurous at home depot / lowe's as i am, you'll find what you need.

Oqsy


----------



## bharada

Steve,
First of all congrats on getting this far without blowing a gasket! 

As for your Co2 concerns, if you feel it'll be a while before you can safely move the Eco why don't you get a 2 liter bottle is Excel and use that as a carbon source instead.

Either that or go out and buy a small HOB filter to run on your 20 so you can move the Eco over now.


----------



## scolley

Oqsy - Thanks. But I'm getting kind of tired of building. :icon_frow I was kind of hoping someone would say something like "Hey dummy, don't you know about the cheap yaadada's made by AquaMorons? They're $8 and work perfect for that."

No such luck I guess. I'm just tired of building. I'm all built-out.


James - Can I use just Excel? That's an easy solution. But if that worked, why would anybody mess around with DIY CO2?

As for the extra HOB, I'm also trying to put an end to the hemorrhage of money to get this tank up. So I was kind of hoping for a dirt cheap solution.


----------



## Oqsy

yeah... been thinking about it, and a small hob would probably fit the bill and be relatively cheap. also, i forgot to mention that you can get an empty filter container ( for home filtration) at home depot / lowe's. less work, and should be reasonably priced. something like this:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=89376-43568-WHCF-DWHV&lpage=none

but less involved, perhaps... all you need is the container and some media (preferably already used). i'm having trouble finding the exact product i'm picturing. that's if you're really interested in using the hobby pump.. otherwise, go with the HOB. a little marineland HOB would work nicely as a temporary filter

edit: something more like item (A) on this page:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=4501&inm=1&N=2004+113776+113565

Oqsy


----------



## JeffB

Scolley congrats on a job well done roud: .. man am I jealous!! The pictures of that tank look awesome.

If you are using the filter from the 20 gal, and are moving the substrate plants & water, I don't think you will even see the tank cycle.


----------



## bharada

scolley said:


> James - Can I use just Excel? That's an easy solution. But if that worked, why would anybody mess around with DIY CO2?
> 
> As for the extra HOB, I'm also trying to put an end to the hemorrhage of money to get this tank up. So I was kind of hoping for a dirt cheap solution.


It's Bill, actually 

Excel will work fine as a short term solution on the 75. The reason why no one does it instead of Co2 (at least on tanks bigger than 55g) is cost. A 2l bottle should last about 11 weeks on your 75 (based on Seachem's recommended dosing schedule) and costs around $25 shipped from Big Al's.

The HOB filter is actually a cheaper option as you can get an Aquaclear 150 for around $20 shipped from Big Al's.


----------



## Marc

I agree- put a HOB filter on the 20 gal and move the eco to the new tank...


----------



## scolley

Sorry Bill!  You _know_ I know. I just have to stop trying to multi-task! Trying to work as I do this...


Oqsy - Hey thanks for the links. But that's overkill. I'm thinking as cheap as possible as I'll (hopefully) never need it again.

Jeff - I hadn't thought about moving the water. Or at least some of it. Thanks! As for the substrate, I'm getting a little mulm off the top and mixing it in with the new stuff, so it will take a little time to germinate. Or so I gather. The water should help though.

I've also got a big piece of driftwood - takes up 1/2 of my 20. It's covered in moss, algae (a la Gomer's tank in last years ADA Contest), and java fern. I'm not keeping it long term, but I though it would be a nice little "booster" to just pick up and put in the new tank to help stuff get kick started.

Bill - (did I get it right?) I think you are right on the money pal. I've got a bottle of Excel now. It sounds like just the ticket for a short period of time if I need it. And the price on the Aquaclear is perfect! Thanks!

And thanks Mac! Long time no hear.

I'll find another use for the hobby pump.

Thanks folks. I know what to do now! roud:


----------



## timr

I think i have an AC 150 you could borrow. You would need to buy a foam cartridge or 2, but hey... PM me if you want it. 

Congrats on an actual fish tank!! I could probably help you move it too, if you don't have anyone.....


----------



## scolley

*Plumbing problem (?)*

*The painful background detail*
Here's an updated pic of the plumbing. It's really more of a logical diagram than a physical. It doesn't accurately show all bends, or how things connect, etc. But it does show where the shinbone is connected to the knee bone. :hihi: 










The important features and points to note are:

1) Five bulkheads in the bottom of the tank. Only two are in use for water movement at the moment. The others are capped off with valves turned off.

2) An inflow manifold that takes water in from two large bulkheads, and distributes it out evenly (hopefully) to any of five possible ports.

3) An outflow manifold that takes water in from four input ports and returns water to the tank. Right now that's to Lilly pipes, but eventually I hope it will be through manifolds.

4) Multiple "water processing" loops. One is normally off, for polishing. Another, always on is the primary filtration loop. That's the Pro II. The other is for all my in-line water processing other than filtration. Most all of that is on my 20g right now and will be moved over en masse.

5) Water sensors built into the inflow manifold; pH and temp.

6) Check valves so that if any pump is turned off, water does not flow into the manifold from a running pump, and flow backward through a pump that is off, rather than flowing out of the manifold in the proper direction.

7) A ball valve, normally off, that separates the filtration loop from the water processing loop (Pro II loop vs. Eco loop). This is to allow the Pro II to push some water through the process loop, if the Eco has been removed for maintenance. So CO2, UV, heat, ferts, never have to be interrupted.

8) And finally, an embarrassing point. The goofy dual-return from the Pro II filter is due to my having put nozzles that are too small on the outflow manifold. So I'm doubling up to not restrict the flow.​And I have one known error in this diagram:

1) Just as the Pro II has a a "Y" in its return to overcome small outflow nozzle diameters, it also has two lines coming in from the inflow manifold. The seemingly unused port out of the inflow manifold has been used for this.​Sorry about the mistake.  

I'm laying this out to relay some interesting plumbing findings from testing this weekend.


*The plumbing problem (?) and question*
The Pro II, running alone, is putting out a measured 224 GPH vs. the spec'd 251. I'm going to attribute this to extra bends in the lines and the aforementioned small nozzles.

The HOT Magnum on the other hand, when run alone, puts out a measured 99 GPH vs. the spec'd 250 GPH. That is a bit disturbing, if it weren't for the fact that it is a HOB, and I've got it underneath, pushing a high head. I expected a serious degradation, I just didn't know how much. In fact, if you look at a normally configured HOT Magnum, the inflow is several inches (6-8?)below the outflow. I've got that reversed too, by 22-23 inches, or a difference of around 28-30 additional head.

But here's the one that bothers me:

When I run the Pro II (224 GPH) and the HOT Magnum (99 GPH), rather than getting 323 GPH, I get 232! That's just 8 GPH more than just the Pro II alone.

Any thoughts?


----------



## scolley

timr said:


> I think i have an AC 150 you could borrow. You would need to buy a foam cartridge or 2, but hey... PM me if you want it.
> 
> Congrats on an actual fish tank!! I could probably help you move it too, if you don't have anyone.....


Hey thanks timr! You snuck that post it while I was typing.

That's really nice of you. I may take you up on that! Either offer. Thanks. :wink:


----------



## fedge

Sometimes the filters dont always run in spec... but.. (big but here).. i would use caution, why do you wan to use the HOT???? If you run this thing over loaded (too much presure--that is why it is not pushing 250gph) it may fail, leak, or burn out the motor-heat up and do God knows what. You may have to abandon the HOT.... BTW where did you get connectors for that thing... I want to convert mine to make it easier to use rather than hang on my tanks.


----------



## Oqsy

ditto on conversion parts for HOT mag... where and how??

Oqsy


----------



## Biznatch

The restriction may be the 1" PVC piping. What is the maximum flow rate for 1" PVC? I work at a pool company and the owner knows a lot about flow rates/loss do to restrictions so whenever I have a question I ask him first. He told me that each elbow you have in your plumbing is equivalent to 20' of pipe. He is on vacation this week but when he gets back I'll ask him and get you a for sure answer about what could be causing the serious loss of flow.


----------



## scolley

Magnum conversion parts - buy two of these,  and throw away the bits that you don't need.

As for the 1" PVC, it should be serious overkill...
The 16mm ID tubing the Pro II uses is 0.3116 sq in
The 1/2" ID magnum tubes are 0.1964 sq in

Together that's only 0.508 sq in of combined flow requirement in a pipe that's got an internal area .785 sq in. The pipe is 50% larger than it needs to be. At least I think.

As for any question about elbows and bends in the manifolds, keep in mind that the Pro II, running through the same manifolds, is running at 89% of its rated speed. So there is some drag. But I don't think it explains this seeming upper limit.

I may have to take a hard look at each connection point to see where a choke point may be. I don't think it's 1" PVC.


----------



## KevinC

scolley said:


> But here's the one that bothers me:
> 
> When I run the Pro II (224 GPH) and the HOT Magnum (99 GPH), rather than getting 323 GPH, I get 232! That's just 8 GPH more than just the Pro II alone.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Isn't the Pro II going to push back against the Magnum when it is running? I realize you've got a check valve to stop reverse flow, but the Pro II is still going to push back in that direction as well if it has some resistance at the outflow (which it probably does since you are only at 89% flow). Bigger tubing (or another line out) would help answer the question.

Kevin


----------



## scolley

KevinC said:


> Isn't the Pro II going to push back against the Magnum when it is running? I realize you've got a check valve to stop reverse flow, but the Pro II is still going to push back in that direction as well if it has some resistance at the outflow...


Kevin, I'm sure you are right. :icon_frow 

And I know where the back pressure is coming from. It's those d*mn nozzles again. The outflow manifold has two nozzles (and only two) leading back to the tank that are 10mm ID, or .2434 sq in total, where the Pro II and Magnum, normally configured take 0.508 sq in. Clearly not enough. And IF I could replace them (they're cemented in), my next restriction would be the two lily pipes, with 7/16" ID each, or 0.3005 sq in total.

I'm not concerned about the Magnum. I can shut off the Pro II when it is running. I'm worried about the Eco I'm planning on running parallel to the Pro II not working - just like the Magnum running in parallel does not work now.

_If I increase the pressure on the Magnum, would that help? _ I've got an Eheim 1048 hobby pump (158 GPH) that I could put between the Magnum and the outflow manifold to see if that picks things up a bit.


PS - I know that combining internal area of multiple pipes for fluid flow like this adds friction due to smaller pipes and the drag placed by connections, but this is a simple framework for looking at the problem without being an ME.


----------



## m.lemay

Hey Steve: Maybe you could drill out the nozzles to get a bigger opening. What have you got to lose at this point?


----------



## scolley

m.lemay said:


> Hey Steve: Maybe you could drill out the nozzles to get a bigger opening. What have you got to lose at this point?


I could loses a system that works imperfectly, in exchange for one that does not work at all. 

But I do think I'll go get a 12mm bit and try to core out another 2mm out of a spare. If that works, and doesn't destroy the integrity of the connection, I'll try it on the offending outflow output ports. Thanks!

If that works, then my combined area between the two will be about .35 sq in, for an application that needs 0.508. But that is still a whopping 44% improvement over the the current state. If that works, then my next problem will be the lily pipes throttling things back again. And I shudder to think about the cost of larger lillies.

Thanks for the idea!


----------



## scolley

*Hold everything...*

Hey, see those two hexagonal nut shapes on the outflow manifold? Just under the ball valve?










Those are screw adapters I put on the outflow ports so I could swap out the nozzles for an attachment to 3/4" flexible PVC when I wanted to lose the lilies and go straight into the bottom of the tank!

Boring out the nozzles was a good idea. But just replacing the nozzle fixture (and cemented ball valve) is an even better one IMO. Time for Home Depot...


Also, I am still curious if anyone thinks the added boost from a hobby pump to increase return pressure would help. Thanks.


----------



## m.lemay

I like your idea better steve.

Heres something else to consider: Inserting filter tubing over a barb thats a bit too large can be done by heating the end of the tube in boiling hot water to soften it. Then it's real easy to stretch it over the larger barb. My point is to get a larger barb. 

This method also works quite well when trying to clamp a piece of tubing thats a bit too large for the barb. Heating it makes it pliable and more easily formed into your desired size.


----------



## BlueRam

This article has been posted prior:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/featurejp.htm
90* elbow in 1" tube =2.25' which is still a lot.

For 1" pipe the flow should be kept to ~700 gph which is fine for the application here. 

I agree with the more recent posts that the problem is the hose barb diameter. 



Biznatch said:


> The restriction may be the 1" PVC piping. What is the maximum flow rate for 1" PVC? I work at a pool company and the owner knows a lot about flow rates/loss do to restrictions so whenever I have a question I ask him first. He told me that each elbow you have in your plumbing is equivalent to 20' of pipe. He is on vacation this week but when he gets back I'll ask him and get you a for sure answer about what could be causing the serious loss of flow.


Does the 350 need "raw" water to run? If not, can it be placed on the "high" pressure side of the Pro II?


----------



## scolley

BlueRam said:


> This article has been posted prior:
> http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2003/featurejp.htm
> 90* elbow in 1" tube =2.25' which is still a lot.


That article was written in Greek right? Because I don't understand Greek.





BlueRam said:


> I agree with the more recent posts that the problem is the hose barb diameter?


Yea, inner hose barb diameter IMO. Check this issue in my response to Marcel below...





BlueRam said:


> Does the 350 need "raw" water to run? If not, can it be placed on the "high" pressure side of the Pro II?


What is a "350"? What is "raw" water? And I don't understand what you are talking about. 





M.Lemay said:


> Heres something else to consider: Inserting filter tubing over a barb thats a bit too large can be done by heating the end of the tube in boiling hot water to soften it. Then it's real easy to stretch it over the larger barb. My point is to get a larger barb.


Believe it or not, I'm doing that now. And planned on it all along.

I figured I'd get nice big barbs (5/8" - big hose, bigger than the 16mm ID of that comes with the Pro II, and way, way bigger than the Eco or Magnum tubing), and stretch anything I had to stretch. It _never, never, never _ occurred to me to such a huge barb would have a measly little 10mm ID. That's more than 6 mm thick plastic barbs! And I bought them from a big Internet salt/reef retailer, so buyer beware.


----------



## BlueRam

Doh! The article is posted so that those interested in frictional loss with any variety of pipe can check the tables to get numbers as they wish. Included mainly to support the quoted values. I believe the local dialect is "GEEK" though.

I referenced the wrong filter... I said 350 but intended the HOT Magnum. Raw water here is "unfiltered" such that you could get a substantial flow boost by putting the HOT (parallel?) after the Pro II. I am not sure if this would A) be a waste as the Pro is doing all the work or B) a good idea because it picks out the smallest bits the Pro misses and does not get clogged as fast as the pro gets rid of the big bits. Still thinking about this one... Still thinking about the booster too and where it should go...

Absolute worse case, you could put the HOT on a separate bulkhead or divide one of the manifolds I guess.

I just finished a plumbing project on my own tank with a bigger pump so I know the fun of finding barbs (5/8"). Biggest lego project ever. 

So I will take a little time to collect my thoughts and give a dignified response soon.



scolley said:


> That article was written in Greek right? Because I don't understand Greek.
> Yea, inner hose barb diameter IMO. Check this issue in my response to Marcel below...
> What is a "350"? What is "raw" water? And I don't understand what you are talking about.
> Believe it or not, I'm doing that now. And planned on it all along.
> 
> I figured I'd get nice big barbs (5/8" - big hose, bigger than the 16mm ID of that comes with the Pro II, and way, way bigger than the Eco or Magnum tubing), and stretch anything I had to stretch. It _never, never, never _ occurred to me to such a huge barb would have a measly little 10mm ID. That's more than 6 mm thick plastic barbs! And I bought them from a big Internet salt/reef retailer, so buyer beware.


----------



## bharada

My local Orchard Supply Hardware carries up to 1" hose barbs if you'd really want to play with some big tubing.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Bill. I got what I needed today!

Blueram, I don't need to boost the Pro II. It's fine IMO. It is running the Magnum and the Pro II in parallel that seems to be suppressing the combined possible flow of the two. Kevin surmised that the Pro II is creating pressure in the lines that is holding back the Magnum (or so I understand) and I agree.

Please keep in mind. I don't need (or want) to run the Pro II and Magnum at the same time. So I don't want them in series, processing the same water. They will be binary in function. Either I'm filtering, or I'm polishing.

I'm concerned about the combined flow because I am planning on running an Eco in parallel with the Pro II all the time. And if a weaker pump gets beat up by back pressure, I have a problem. So until I see the Pro II plus the Magnum running at the same time, delivering the sum of the output either of them can delivery alone, I potentially have a problem with the Eco.

So today I got 2 15mm ID nozzles, hooked them up, with a combined area 0.4578. My old combined area at the choke point was 0.2434 sq in. Now, unfortunately, by eliminating that, my lilly pipes represent my choke point with a combined area of 0.3005 sq in.

So, to recap my old test:

Limited by combined total area of the old nozzles - 0.2434 sq in.
Pro 2126 II - 224 GPH
Hot Magnum 250 - 99 GPH
Pro II 2126 and Hot Magnum 250 - 232 GPH​
But today, no longer limited by the nozzles, but limited by combined lilly pipe area of 0.3005 sq in. 
Pro 2126 II - 230 GPH, 2.6% increase
Hot Magnum 250 - 113 GPH, 14% increase
Pro II 2126 and Hot Magnum 250 - 264 GPH, 13.8% increase​
I think this confirms Kevin's assertion, that the back pressure was creating problems for the Magnum. If so, I need to explore replacing the lillies, to reduce the choke point even further.

Because my problem goes away when the combined flow approaches the sum of the separate flows. Right now it's 76%. But that's an improvement. Yesterday it was 71%. Long way to go though. :icon_frow


----------



## scolley

Oh yeah, Marcel. Since I removed the old port nozzles on the outflow, I decided to drill them to see if if was a viable method for increasing the ID of the other places where I have these same nozzles.

I found a 11.9 mm drill bit (for holes that were about 10 mm). I spent the money for the bit, loaded it into the Makita, placed it gently on the old hole, being careful of the alignment, gently pulled the trigger, and 

POW! The nozzle exploded! Shattered. 1/2 its length, instantly rendered into lots of little pieces.

It sounded like a good idea.

Real glad I tried it on a nozzle I no longer needed though!


----------



## m.lemay

Cool :icon_bigg .

Now you can stop screwin around and get the right ones :tongue: 

LMAO

Marcel


----------



## Biznatch

Is there anyway to rework the manifold so that you have 2 instead of 1? Thne you can have the Pro2 going through one ouput in the tank, then have the eco/magnum going out the other. Either that or you could take them off the manifold of the pro2 completely and cap them off then input them through one of the 3 unused bulkheads you have just sitting there.


----------



## scolley

Biznatch said:


> Is there anyway to rework the manifold so that you have 2 instead of 1? Thne you can have the Pro2 going through one ouput in the tank, then have the eco/magnum going out the other. Either that or you could take them off the manifold of the pro2 completely and cap them off then input them through one of the 3 unused bulkheads you have just sitting there.


I've set my aquascape pretty much, and can't bring unused bulkheads into service without tossing out the aquascape plants. The plants are purchased, so I'm not going to go down that route.

I'm not keen to take anything off the manifolds - kinda defeats the purpose. And if my ME buddy is right, if the whole system is designed right, there should be no reason to have to separate outputs - the back pressure should not be an issue.

I think what I have to test not is the system without the lily pipes, to see if eliminating that choke point opens everything up for better combined flow.

The lilies combined area of 0.3005 sq in. is still a long way shy of the manufacturers spec'd total flow area between the Magnum and the Pro II of 0.508 sq in.

Gotta try it without the lilies.


----------



## PJAN

Just a thought :

Why not seperate the two outflows ( going into the tank with clean water...) ???
Just put a valve in the big tube and close it.
This way the Ecco gets no troubles from the Eheim pressure and vice versa.

Running the Hot Magnun is easy, close the Eheim almost, just enough to keep te bacteria alive, and run the Magnum. No big troublesome flow ( back pressure ) from the Eheim.

Well, just some thoughts.

O, question : 
Why are you using two pumps? I use for my 90 Gallons only one Eheim ( pushing water through the CO2 and UV) and this is more than enough filtration for my tank.


Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Apologies for the plumbing discourse here folks. I know it's not directly related to building the tank. But I really want to get this stuff out of the way before I move the tank into the house. Pulling hoses lets loose a lot of water...





PJAN said:


> Why not separate the two outflows ( going into the tank with clean water...) ???
> Just put a valve in the big tube and close it.
> This way the Ecco gets no troubles from the Eheim pressure and vice versa.


I think what that really boils down to is separating the Pro II output from that of anything else. That's easily done. But I've only got two lily pipes to return the flow, meaning the Pro II only gets 1. And at 0.1503 sq in, or around 11 mm in diameter, that's not enough by itself. I either have to have the Pro II sharing both lilies, or buy bigger lillies. :icon_frow 





PJAN said:


> Running the Hot Magnum is easy, close the Eheim almost, just enough to keep te bacteria alive, and run the Magnum. No big troublesome flow ( back pressure ) from the Eheim.


I'll be doing that. But I'll be shutting down the Pro II completely, using a timer. The plan is to run an hour or so of polishing every night, controlled by timers, every nite.





PJAN said:


> Why are you using two pumps? I use for my 90 Gallons only one Eheim ( pushing water through the CO2 and UV) and this is more than enough filtration for my tank.


Now that's a good question! I thought a Pro II 2126 only barely provided enough circulation for a 75. Would you disagree? I thought I needed the Ecco for two purposes: extra circulation, and not slowing the Pro II down with all the inline stuff.


----------



## PJAN

Hmmm,

I would swap the Ecco for the Eheim and test the flow. I have more or less the same flowrate in my 90 Gallon.
Eh, 700 l/h = about 180 G/h filtration in my tank of 90 Gallon.

You have a 75 Gallon tank which need filtration about 2 times : 150 Gallon/hr. That's normally enough. But the flowrate is about 224 Gallon: rougly 3 times / hr.
More than enough in my opinion and some loss is acceptable.

If you run the Magnum every nighyt for just one hour, the water and collected dirt will be without oxygen for 23 hours what will cause rotting material and yo're pushing every day the bacterial products from rotting ( NH4 etc.) into your tank...
Not good. 
Normally the UV is enough to polish the water ( yellowing chemicals will be destroyed).
Only for special occasions like a photoshoot for a competition, I would use the Magnum. 

Well, just thinking.... ( KISS)


----------



## scolley

*New Manifolds, and delay to moving inside*

PJAN - I'm interested in knowing how long (or how little) I can run the Magnum to avoid anaerobic conditions. All I ever intended using it for was special occasions. The daily run was intended to run to avoid the oxygen free problems. But if I need to run it for 1 minute every hour, just to keep the lines oxygenated, I can get a timer to do that. All I want to do is run it frequently enough, and as short a time as possible, so that when I DO want to run it, it's ready to go. Just flip a switch! :icon_wink That's the idea anyway. Ant thanks for the flow rate advice. Sounds like I'm OK. roud: 

Any thoughts on how often, and how long, to run the Magnum to be good enough to avoid anaerobic conditions in the lines and the filter?


*New Manifolds*
Messing around with the manifolds and lines has convinced me that it was not a good idea. At least not how it wound up. The list of problems:

1) The nozzles are the wrong size (and cemented in)
2) It's causing back-flow pressure problems
3) It wound up larger than I planned, and it gets massively in the way. It's real hard to mess around under the tank. Some operations are impossible with out first disassembling something that has nothing to do with the problem other than being in the way. Bad design.​
So the manifolds are going to be filed in the circular bin. Permanently.

The down side is that I'll be re-plumbing the tank. Possibly even with mini-manifolds (_Honey, that boy ain't right. He cain't learn..._). :icon_wink 

And that means delay. I'm not moving it into the house until the plumbing is done. Sorry for the delay folks. Again.

But I've not put up with all this tank-building frustration to put a bad end product into my house. If it is going to be done, by golly, it's going to be done right!



PS - After all my posts on these darn manifolds, replacing them now should be evidence that there is not too much pride on the line here. I'm happy to admit when something I made is a piece of caa-caa, and this is one!


----------



## cprroy73

Hi Steve, I am sure you already know this, but if you would have used swept 90's and swept T's you probably would have less loss on the in and outputs.

Swept in the correct flow direction of course.

Good luck.


----------



## eds

Just got back from a driving trip from Chi to Maine, and noticed there have been a post or 2 in this thread in my absence!

Lovely vid and pic, *scolley*. You are most definitely insane - and I mean that in a good way.

Congrats on all the good news.

BTW - we drove thru your lovely state between NY and Boston. What a lovely place to visit - I can only imagine how nice it would be to live there. Next time we visit we will spend some time instead of just passing thru. On that topic - what time is that cookout *Buck*?


----------



## scolley

cprroy73 said:


> Hi Steve, I am sure you already know this, but if you would have used swept 90's and swept T's you probably would have less loss on the in and outputs.
> 
> Swept in the correct flow direction of course.
> 
> Good luck.


I assume you are right. But I also suspect the difference would have been marginal. I say that because I'm achieving over 90% of the Pro II's rated speed now. And that's pushing the flow though two of those tine 10mm nozzles, which combined only provide 78% of the area that the supplied 16mm ID provide. So there has to be some drag from that choke point. And if so, how much more of the less than 10% slowdown comes from the hard angles on the manifold. Small single digits of a percent I suspect.

Thanks for the suggestion. But they are hard to find, and all the ones I did find are bigger than the same right-angle part. So I skipped them due to size. As it stands now, I'm not ditching the manifolds due to inefficiency (except the d*mn nozzles), which I think is minimal, but because of the size, and the creation of back pressure in parallel outflows.

Thanks for the suggestion though.


EDS - Thanks for the comps! A certain amount of insanity is required to remain sane, IMO. roud: And yeah, CT is a lovely state, and I'm grateful that I'm fortunate enough to live here!


----------



## scolley

*Plumbing design changes*

Wow. Big changes decided, tough to summarize. Much decided with credit and thanks to PM's from PJAN. Thanks.

1) I'm going to drop the Magnum. It seemed like a really cool idea to have a polisher that I already owned, ready to be switched on when ever I wanted. It seems like the issues associated with leaving it in-line, but turned off, leading to anaerobic and toxic conditions just makes the risks out weight the benefits. :icon_frow So that idea is dropped. I just "HOB" it like it was designed, as required.

2) I'm going to drop the Ecco. I determined today that I can get even more flow out of my Pro II. I got it up to 250 GPH. So I'm going to hang all my in-line processing off of that. I'll set it up so that the Ecco has adapters on it so that I can swap it out for the Pro II when needed.

3) I will create a smaller, inflow manifold with room for my temp and pH sensors. It will still take in 2 3/4" lines because I like the idea of two, even flowing, drains in the tank for circulation issues. But it will converge to a single filtration line.

4) I will drop the out flow manifold. But I will still take the output from the Pro II and run it into a "Y", which branches to my two lily pipes. One is just not enough to satisfy the flow rate the Pro II requires.

That's it in a nutshell. If I'm lucky I'll finish this over the weekend. But I'm not going to delay moving the tank for this. This is easy work. It's going to work. roud: 

So time for me to begin tear down, and moving into the house!


----------



## Buck

Drumroll please... :icon_bigg


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> Drumroll please... :icon_bigg


Keep that drum rolling... tomorrow (Sunday Jul 31) could be the day!

I had to go out and get buy a post to facilitate this move. I had such a hard time getting the bulkheads installed with the tank in the stand, I decided that this time I'm going to install them before I put the tank on the stand.

With the tank resting on a 3/4" board, and at 1" piece of Styrofoam, tightening the nut on the bottom of the bulkheads was hard! It is recessed 1 and 3/4" with all that support under the tank. So this time, after I disassemble it all to remove it, I'm going to rest the tank on a 4x4 post (cut into 2 24" lengths) to support it off the ground. While it's there I'll be able to get to the bottom better to really crank down on the nut under the bulkhead and hopefully get a really tight installation. After that I'll move the stand inside and drop the tank down with the bulkheads already on the tank. roud: 

Hopefully...

More later. It's getting close!


----------



## scolley

*Presenting... the Big Clear Kahuna!*

At last! At last! *At laaast!!!!!!!! * :biggrin: 












No time for much, other than taking a moment to say brief "Thanks!" for all your help and encouragement folks!

More later. Right now the missus and I have popped a bottle of bubbly that needs attention!


----------



## Opiesilver

WooHoo!!! Big Congrats!!! roud: roud: roud:


----------



## Jason Baliban

roud: roud: roud: roud: roud:

jB


----------



## PinkRasbora

Well congrats are in order! I was praying for that tank to stop leaking. Looks AWSOME!! I knew you could do it! Now run back to the store and get some plants!! lol

-PinkRasbora


----------



## lumpyfunk

Glad to see it up. CONGRATS!!!!


----------



## m.lemay

Sweeeeeeeeeeeet :angel:


----------



## andyg

roud: Congrats, now come the easy part...Aquascaping :bounce:


----------



## skabooya

WOW. its been a long haul but FINALLY!! YAY!!!!! Congrats!.... now throw some plants in there and get er goin.


----------



## Oqsy

finally, i can uncross my fingers. i think one of them might be permanently damaged from "repetetive stress syndrome". 

Way to go! I knew it would work out if you were persistant and thorough (two things you showed early in the thread). Fantastic work, and beautiful tank! the pendant over the open top is hard to beat for elegance. now, i'm interested in seeing / hearing more about the "mosquitoscape". Congratulations to you and your family. I'm sure they're more relieved and proud than anyone else, as they now have a fantastic tank and their husband/dad is going to have a bit more free time. In the words of Busta Rhymes, "Wooha! Wooha!"

Oqsy


----------



## Curare

Ahhhh finally.

Well done Scolley!

You got there man! And a nice setup it is too! Be warned tho! On a tank that size, open tops mean at least a 1/4" of evaporation every day!

Keep a jug handy!


----------



## scolley

Thanks a mil' folks! And Oqsy, I hope those fingers are OK. But I _do _ appreciate it.

I've tried to take a better pic of the tank, and am having a hard time. So apologize for the flash glare. And clearly am going to have to do something about that power cord on the light.










But it went thru the 1st night with no leaks. History has proven that if it does that, it won't pop for a while, _if _ it pops!

Had some misadventures getting it in, and learned some things worth passing along. Will do that soon.

The funny thing is putting this in now was a real act of faith. I'm leaving on a biz trip today - won't be back until Friday. So I'm really hoping for no surprises while I'm gone. :hihi: Truth is though, if I thought it was going to pop, I'd drain it. But I'm gonna leave it full.


----------



## jhoetzl

OK, first off, congrats - looking sweet! Next, I would love to see "under the hood" with all those plumbing diagrams we saw...

Lastly - is that cuban croc to keep the fish IN the tank


----------



## eds

Man, that is really sweet.
What a lovely image to view first thing in the workweek!
Can't wait to see it's continued development.


----------



## Bert H

Steve, I tip my hat to you! Your persistance should be a lesson to us all. Great loooking stand too, btw. Can't wait to see some plantings now.


----------



## SnyperP

About the light cord, you can run it along one of the sidepanels instead of on the back panel. The reflection created inside the tank (on the side panels) will hide the cord when viewing from the front.


----------



## PJAN

Steve,

It's looking mighty good !

What a tank ! I can't wait to see the first steps in aquascaping!

Deep bow,

PJAN


----------



## timr

Golf Clap roud:


----------



## Oqsy

SnyperP said:


> About the light cord, you can run it along one of the sidepanels instead of on the back panel. The reflection created inside the tank (on the side panels) will hide the cord when viewing from the front.


that, or you could hit it with krylon's new "invisibility" paint! I used it on my plywood tank, and saved tons of $ on expensive low-iron glass panes! 



http://www.krylon.com said:


> Welcome Krylon's newest product to our already world famous line of spray paints, varnishes, epoxies, and primers! Introducing Krylon *INVISIBLE*. Krylon invisible is the result of 27 years of research, ingenuity, and industry leading innovation. After one coat of Krylon *INVISIBLE*, most surfaces become at least translucent, if not totally transparent. Say goodbye to unsightly walls, plumbing, or wiring, or create windows in creative locations.
> 
> 
> Caution: Krylon *INVISIBLE* will not make things disappear, but merely render them transparent. Not recommended for use on:
> Pet stains
> Report cards
> Court summons
> Skin
> Mucous membranes
> World leaders
> In-Laws





Oqsy


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## scolley

*Thanks! NOW I'm scared... and more lessons learned*

*THANKS*
Many, many thanks folks for all your encouragement and help. I did not do this on my own. It took many, many of the ideas and pieces of information that you provided. That along with your guidance and "oh so needed" supportive sense of humor, made it possible. roud: 

Thank you!!!

And even now it is a joy to see so many people that I haven't heard from, people I know or recognize from the community in general, but haven't heard from here. Thanks for chiming in!



*FEAR*


andyg said:


> Congrats, now come the easy part...Aquascaping


Boy. I wish that were true. So far it's been hard, but at the end of the day, I always believed that persistence would ultimately pay off. And it looks like it did! But the aquascaping part has got me scared. Persistence and effort might have gotten the Sistine Chapel built, but it took something more to get that beautiful artwork on the ceiling...

Plants are coming in this weekend. And though I've already got the aquascape laid out in my mind and on paper, I'm really scared I'm going to crash and burn artistically. I guess we'll see.  



*MORE lessons learned:*
I want to quickly document my actions in getting the tank into the house before I forget...

1) Install the bulkheads before you put the tank in the stand. Much easier! 4"x4" posts work well as supports for the tank so you can work above it and have room below for tightening the bulkheads.
2) Plastic bulkheads can break if over tightened. I know :eek5: , found out the hard way yesterday. And boy oh boy, was I ever patting my own self on the back when I pulled out the extra one I had purchased "just in case". roud: 
3) I leveled the stand without the tank in it, to keep from jarring the tank unnecessarily. But by the time the tank was 50% full, a serious touch up was required.
4) If you are doing an all glass tank with no rim, the side to side leveling is critical. It looks awful when one side has more water than the other. Even a little.
5) But for the same reasons, front to back leveling is not quite so critical, at least to my eye. I erred a hair on the side of it tilting forward, and it looks fine. In fact, if front when it looks "full", you don't notice that it's a hair less "full' in back.
6) Having two full grown capable, level headed, men doing the lifting on the tank makes it a piece of cake. It was _sooo _ much harder when I was getting help from my wife and kids.​

I'll get plumbing pics up eventually. But it's not finished. I'd rather wait. With the new manifold, and my simplification of everything, I hope it will be pretty decent.

And soon I need to write up the short version of this thread, the "how to" as it were. But I've got to get the plants in and plumbing finished first.

Thanks again folks. This has been grueling, but fun. Or at least I can say that now that the tank is done! :icon_wink


PS - I tried moving the light cord to the side. Doesn't easily work. The Tek's cords are so thick, that moving them in any orientation other than straight down pulls the entire fixture in that direction. Maybe I've got to get some of that "translucent paint". Sounds expensive though...


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## Buck

Planting should be a far sight easier then what you have endured allready Steve... no pressure man, just go for it ! 
Congrats on the leak free tank , cant wait to see the read the rest of the book ... roud:


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## riverrat

I'll never notice the aquascape. I'll be to busy looking at the glass engineering marvel! Your tank looks wonderful and I hope you feel it was worth it. Sure looks like all the pain and suffering have paid big dividends.

Good luck on planting it. I hope you have a step ladder. :icon_bigg 



river


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## scolley

Thanks River. I wish I had better photographic skills so I could show it to you better. But up close it looks awesome. Just a big cube of water, with of course, reasonable but not overbearing borders.

In person, it does really look cool. I know it's shameful, but I found myself continuously drawn back into the room, just to gawk at how cool it looked.

But, just to let Murphy have his say in matters, today I filled it to the edge. You know, to create that rim-free water cube look. Well, lets just say that what looked way cool one minute was a towel grabbing, water mopping experience another! When the water comes all the way up to the edge, water tension and surface attraction or something kicks in. And a big stable water cube can quickly turn into a water weeping rapidly over the edges sort of an experience!

Now I know why Amano keeps his tanks filled a half inch or so from the top.


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## turbomkt

scolley said:


> PS - I tried moving the light cord to the side. Doesn't easily work. The Tek's cords are so thick, that moving them in any orientation other than straight down pulls the entire fixture in that direction. Maybe I've got to get some of that "translucent paint". Sounds expensive though...


What would the effect be if the cord went up first?

Otherwise, what about a nice blank background?


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## scolley

*Cord hiding, new manifold*



turbomkt said:


> What would the effect be if the cord went up first?
> Otherwise, what about a nice blank background?


Up just makes it visible in a different place IMO. So I'm thinking about finding some kind of wrap (or tape) that is a dramatically similar color to the back wall. And even then, I only really have to worry about the short distance between the light and the tank because the cord will be hidden behind my hardscape for the height of the tank. After that it will disappear into the stand.

And I'm hoping to explore a background-less design. I hope I'll only need one for photographs. I think getting in my hardscape, and a small amount of eggshell color tape will do the trick.


*New Manifold*
Here's the new manifold. It's inflow only. Though I got sick of the old rig, I did want to keep the inflow of two drains in the tank for helping current in the tank, and also wanted to keep some of my in-line processing in this spot.









It's not a great pic. I was in a hurry Sunday to finish everything up. But on the manifold you should see two compression couplings to connect the flex-PVC, and three liquid-tight fittings documented in this thread. The fittings hold the pH probe, which must be kept vertical, a temp probe, and an electrical ground probe.

This means I've given up on the outflow manifold. It's just simpler without it. And I've given up on the parallel water processing flows. Now the Pro II is going to do it all. If the flow isn't enough, I'll put on a booster pump. Much simpler. Much easier. And much, much neater and manageable in the stand.

My lessons learned on the old manifolds:
1) Never glue in the connection points to a manifold. Always use screw in connections.
2) Compression couplings work GREAT on flexible PVC. They make changing manifold connections a breeze. Much better than glued on couplings.
3) Never begin assembly until you have all the parts in front of you, and have physically confirmed that everything fits.​
And yes, many of you get to give me a hearty "I told you so!" roud: (I'll not name names, but you know who you are, and the list is long!) But hey, it was worth a shot. No guts, no glory. And yes PJAN, I finally gave in to KISS, or at least got closer to it.


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## eds

I know I'm speaking for more than myself when I say ya GOTTA go with that "invisible paint"!


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## timr

> And I'm hoping to explore a background-less design. I hope I'll only need one for photographs. I think getting in my hardscape, and a small amount of eggshell color tape will do the trick.


What if you used a background the same color as the wall? i dunno, maybe not the same effect. 

In that pic of the manifold, the thing on the top is the ph probe, and then hanging down is the temp probe and grounding probe. right? if so (i know this won't matter for the grounding probe) won't the water be kind of still in that "tail" and maybe you won't get and accurate temp reading? or maybe not....


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## scolley

eds - I said it before. Invisible Paint has got to be way too expensive. I'm saving what money is left for fish! :hihi: 


timr - background the same color as the wall? Hmmm. That's kind of clever. roud: Will have to think about that...

The temp probe is indeed the thing on the bottom. And it's long. So long that the tip extends just up to the water flow - most of the business end that actually does the sensing is right up by (but not in) the flow. I'm trusting that the thermally conductive nature of water will take care of the rest.

And BTW - everything but the pH probe are on the bottom so that when they are replaced, you don't have to worry about them sitting in an air bubble. The pH probe _must_ be placed pointed down. So I know from experience that means the each time you take it out to calibrate it, you have to fill the lines with water, then pull it out a bit to "burp" the resulting air pocket. It's a bit of a PITA that always spills a bit of water.


And it may not show in the photo, but the bottom two couplings are canted a bit. So with it installed on an inner wall of the stand, they stand off from the wall a little, providing a bit more room to get hands/pliers around them for maintenance.


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## scolley

*Plants are in!*

Back from 5 days away and not leaks. (I would have been surprised if there were though)

But better yet... my plants arrived! Now to get down to the real reason for doing all this...


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## m.lemay

Hey Steve: Now its time for you to start a new thread in the photo album with a pic of the "blank canvas" and it's progressions.

If your anything like me, you'll go into the "artist zone" and forget all about pictures til the scape is nearly complete.  

So...... what are you waiting for...... start the thread already.


roud:


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## scolley

Yup,

Will do! roud: But going to get the last plumbing pics in first - probably some time next week. And going to do a separate thread to wrap up lessons learned/how-to.

Plants/aquascape will go elsewhere, but I'm not planning on posting anything about that right away. No too interested in posting about greenwater and scraggly plants. I'm going to wait until the tank gets past that little bit of fun.


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## Oqsy

i'm sure it's already crossed your mind, but just in case...
be sure to post links to both new threads in this one  congrats on the continued success, and can't wait to see it full of plants 

Oqsy


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## lumpyfunk

scolley said:


> Plants/aquascape will go elsewhere, but I'm not planning on posting anything about that right away. No too interested in posting about greenwater and scraggly plants. I'm going to wait until the tank gets past that little bit of fun.


Come on, you have shared all the pain up to this point, why stop now? :icon_bigg


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## Hop




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## Momotaro

It is time to start a new aquascaping thread. Link it back to this thread, but start a new thread for your new venture! roud: 

Mike


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## shalu

Come on, Steve, please start the new thread. I enjoy looking at green water and algae pics :tongue:


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## scolley

*ok, ok, OK!*

I was gonna wait until the tank looked a bit better, but I'm getting beat up here. So I've started a thread a bit earlier than I wanted, so try to be nice with pooh-poohing OK?

Here ya go.


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## Jdinh04

LOL Scolley, you just made my day after watching that video clip of yours. Good work!


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## Barbels

I can't find a link to the video clip, where is it?


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## scolley

Barbels said:


> I can't find a link to the video clip, where is it?


The first post has an index in it barb. It's listed in the index as "Offering to the Gods of Glass". :icon_wink


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## scolley

*Last Post (that's the intention anyway!) - Plumbing*

OK, I said I'd post plumbing pics. You can find them now here in my new tank thread.

When life calms down this fall, I'll sit down and write my lessons learned in a new thread. Shorter, easier to follow I hope.

Thanks for all the help and encouragement folks! Pls say "Hi" in my new thread! Your company has been both valuable and fun!

Signing off this monster thread with warm regards. Your friend - Steve

PS - I've tried to summarize all the stuff I learned here in this thread, for hopefully slightly easier reading.


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## sapphoqueen

no more info on that ????


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