# Plan to get rid of scuds in shrimp tank, please advise



## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Got any fish keeping buddies near you? If not, you may be in the market for a betta my friend. One fish army lol. It sounds like they are a pain to decimate so you may want to just keep one and deploy it from time to time until they are gone for sure. Now's a great time of year for one since your water should be a bit on the warmer side. You could use that heater from the shrimp tank for his new home if you have the space too.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Corydoradaxplora said:


> Got any fish keeping buddies near you? If not, you may be in the market for a betta my friend. One fish army lol. It sounds like they are a pain to decimate so you may want to just keep one and deploy it from time to time until they are gone for sure. Now's a great time of year for one since your water should be a bit on the warmer side. You could use that heater from the shrimp tank for his new home if you have the space too.


No fish buddies, they say no invert keeper is an island but somehow I've managed to remain pretty isolated. Luckily, we've got a couple LFS nearby.

I made a joke some weeks ago about trying to convince my gf that we *need* another tank and that it wasn't working, but I've been plying that angle for a while now and I _may_ be able to get away with a nano (~1 gal) at some point.  
I'd feel pretty terrible putting a betta in there, though. I've heard that's not nearly enough for them. 

(As I was typing this, she walked by and I read your comment to her. I think it's working. Gonna get myself a nano before I know it whoop whoop)


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

If you take out any desirable livestock first you can crash the tank with seltzer water. Then just monitor the ph and when it goes back to normal put your shrimp back in.


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## ThomasXu9394 (May 19, 2017)

I am afraid you will need to redo your tank completely. I have tried adding fish to my tank and putting seltzer water in a cup with java moss full of scud. At first, it seem like you have kill them all but there will be one or two survivors and you will see them again. My current fish tank have scud hiding within moss and driftwood. Their population is only under control in the open space of the tank. behind moss and driftwood they are everywhere. I have tetras, guppies, cherry barbs etc. in that tank. Never re-use substrates from a infected tank too. whatever you're reusing, make sure it's completely dried out and treated before using it. good luck buddy.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I like the co2 nuke idea, just net the shrimp and toss them in a bucket with a sponge filter and dump seltzer, or just grab a co2 system from another tank and crank it up to deliberately gas anything remaining. Plants wont care, and the tank has no lingering chemicals.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Fish cannot consistently affect the genocide you need. Another solution is API Algaefix (toxic to crustaceans) administered continuously over several weeks (take out livestock first).


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## bigbadjon (Aug 6, 2015)

The only way I could see a scud surviving a co2 crash is if they can breath air and make it to the surface to breath until the water normalized. If it breathes water it cannot survive.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

The problem with temporary treatment is that the eggs are quite durable. I'm not sure if they would survive super high CO2 levels but it's a possibility. To those truly interested I would recommend searching the scientific literature (Google Scholar is a good resource) on scud (Gammarus) life cycle.


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## dhavoc (May 4, 2006)

only solution I found that works is complete tear down of tank, Axelrodi is right, they can survive almost anything short of boiling water or clorox. they burrow into the gravel so fish would only hide the problem, just turn on the lights after they have been in a dark room for a few hours and the fish are asleep to see what i mean. i actually tear down the tank and let the substrate dry completely (done dry, out in the sun is best), along with filters etc (your going to start from scratch all over again). plants with large leaves you can clean off with a light bleach bath. any moss or plants with tiny hiding places get mulched or fed to my koi. keep shrimp in a temp tank (gonna be awhile so you may want to prep it in advance). after doing a dozen or so tanks like this i found the easiest way but most expensive is to start a new replacement tank and transfer shrimps to new one when ready, tear down old one after that. the babies are smaller than copepods and almost impossible to manually remove. i tried the co2 and seltzer method on a tank i tore down to gravel and even with almost 100% seltzer water + co2 like an airstone and a bottle of peroxide to boot they were happily crawling around the gravel a week later. sorry, but i'd rather have planaria/hydra over scuds, at least you can treat for those without tearing down the whole tank and starting over.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

dhavoc said:


> sorry, but i'd rather have planaria/hydra over scuds, at least you can treat for those without tearing down the whole tank and starting over.


Heh, I already nuked the planaria in my tank. Seems like the scuds are going to give me a run for my money.

Thanks for all your input, guess my idea likely won't work. 
Has anyone had any firsthand success with the sparkling water method? It sounds like they're so resilient that nothing short of fire will get rid of them. Ugh.

In the spirit of SCIENCE, I decided to run a miniature version of the club soda method to see whether it was worth pursuing at all. I siphoned ~20 scuds out of my tank (it took like 15 seconds at most, that's how many there are) and gave them a healthy serving of La Croix (apricot flavor, in case you're curious). 

They're sitting in a 1/2 La Croix, 1/2 tank water mixture right now and they look baaaad (as in dead). That said, the La Croix came straight from the fridge so I might have killed them with the temperature shock or simply immobilized them with the cold. I'm waiting to see if they recover when their little bath warms up.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

aotf said:


> Heh, I already nuked the planaria in my tank. Seems like the scuds are going to give me a run for my money.
> 
> Thanks for all your input, guess my idea likely won't work.
> Has anyone had any firsthand success with the sparkling water method? It sounds like they're so resilient that nothing short of fire will get rid of them. Ugh.
> ...


Back when Grocery Outlet was called Canned Food Warehouse, they had these cases of a California produced, naturally sparkling mineral water bottled near St. Helena for about a third of the famous mineral water's price. We bought several cases of them and were using them as a daily CO2 'injection' for my 29 gallon, of the ones I didn't drink. So no I don't really have experience with killing Scuds using sparkling water, but it certainly grew plants really nicely. It also was pretty good in Scotch and Soda, or Gin and Tonic sans the Canada Dry Quinine water.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Could try oxygen starvation? Crank the temps as high as possible, turn light out, blast Co2, stop all surface agitation and seal the top of the tank with cling wrap? This would stop any oxygen from dissolving back into the water because Co2 is heavier so the small space of air above the water would be Co2. I'm assuming 2-3 days everything but plants should be dead including BB. IDK never tried but I'm curious to see if you feel like experimenting? I would think plants would survive. Also assume this could create a PH crash.

More of an attempt to get you to try it than a proven solution. But hey at least I'm being upfront about it 

Dan


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Dman911 said:


> Could try oxygen starvation? Crank the temps as high as possible, turn light out, blast Co2, stop all surface agitation and seal the top of the tank with cling wrap? This would stop any oxygen from dissolving back into the water because Co2 is heavier so the small space of air above the water would be Co2. I'm assuming 2-3 days everything but plants should be dead including BB. IDK never tried but I'm curious to see if you feel like experimenting? I would think plants would survive. Also assume this could create a PH crash.
> 
> More of an attempt to get you to try it than a proven solution. But hey at least I'm being upfront about it
> 
> Dan


I think it was mentioned that the Gammarus eggs are tougher than boot leather, and are often times in the gravel where they will probably survive most attempts to kill the Scuds. It's really sounding like a tank tear down and sanitizing using a powerful oxidizer like bleach, ( *shudder*) is about the only answer. BTW remind me to keep a real close eye on new plants I buy.

I don't wanna deal with scuds, I haven't had any snails, and yet I like my Ostracods because the fish sort nibble on them and keep them in check, and they don't harm plants or eat baby shrimps.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I think it was mentioned that the Gammarus eggs are tougher than boot leather, and are often times in the gravel where they will probably survive most attempts to kill the Scuds. It's really sounding like a tank tear down and sanitizing using a powerful oxidizer like bleach, ( *shudder*) is about the only answer. BTW remind me to keep a real close eye on new plants I buy.
> 
> I don't wanna deal with scuds, I haven't had any snails, and yet I like my Ostracods because the fish sort nibble on them and keep them in check, and they don't harm plants or eat baby shrimps.


This and snails are the reason I only buy tissue cultured plants. To be honest I worry far more about getting snails than I do about algae or any fish disease. 

Added: If I do ever get I'm going to give this a try doing 2-3 days oxygen starvation/Co2 poisoning then 2-3 day recovery and repeat 2-3 times or as many as necessary to kill off the hatches if any eggs survive.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Remove the shrimp, then do one of the following?


Head the tank up to 100-ish degrees (???)

Add Alum (same concept as CO2 - lower pH/pickle tank)

Try Predator from Green Pepper Shrimp




More research recommended prior to trying any one option


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Try Predator from Green Pepper Shrimp


This was the first thing on my mind when I saw this thread. Great because it's a natural product. It utilizes saponin so it is safe for shrimp, rotifiers and copepods. I don't think this one would work unfortunately since scuds are crustaceans as well.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

At high enough doses, I think it can kill shrimp too?


Haven't looked into it myself, just see it recommended, hence recommending doing more research.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> More research recommended prior to trying any one option


If there's ANYTHING I've learned so far in this hobby, it's that more research is always recommended.

I've got a couple leads to follow so I'm definitely going to do some reading before committing to anything. It also seems like a couple ideas have a low chance of success but also a low risk of catastrophic failure so I might try those out first (causing a pH crash through different methods, CO2 poisoning, cooking the scuds alive, etc...) Hopefully those work out so I don't have to trash several months of growth.

I'll keep this updated with different attempts and my progress.

Concerning my La Croixed scuds from earlier: they were super dead. I'll have to try again with room temperature club soda. Another idea (basically the opposite of Zoidburg's) would be to chill the tank really rapidly to see if I can kill them the same way. 

Freeze a bunch of water overnight and refrigerate as much as I can to try to get to ~5 gallons of ice cold water total. Drain half of my 10 gal and start dumping in cold water. Let it sit for a 1/2 hour and then crank up the heater. My only concern is the plants, I'll have to check how resilient to cold they are... with experiments!


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

UPDATE 1:
I took a bunch of scuds and put them in a 3/4 tank water, 1/4 grapefruit La Croix solution (It's a pretty good flavor albeit somewhat subtle. The scuds didn't agree.). The key differences this time were the temperature (room temp for both tank water and the La Croix) and controlling the concentration.

Results: 84/84 scuds died with the water. Within 15 seconds they had all sunk to the bottom and started to twitch. Within an hour, there were no signs of life. I left them for several hours in case of recovery but did not see any survivors. Extrapolating this to my tank, I will need ~12L of sparkling water. Awesome.

Ongoing test: After killing the scuds, I decided to test my plants' resilience to the carbonation. I currently have some Ludwigia, Reinickii, and monte carlo in the same 3/4 tank water, 1/4 grapefruit La Croix mix. The timeline of this test is longer: I want to see what happens to the plants in 48-72 hours time. If I can leave them in their current condition for 72 hours then move them back to the main tank without them dying, I'm moving forward with plan "La Croix".

(...I won't actually be using La Croix to do this, I'll find some off-brand stuff in 2L bottles.)


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## Corydoradaxplora (Mar 31, 2017)

Delicious!


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

UPDATE 2/3:
After a couple days of sitting in 1/4 La Croix water, my plants looked fine. They were moved back to the main tank with no adverse effects. I even planted them after the Big One and they seem like they're doing fine.

With such promising results, I decided to move forward with the Big One.
I moved all the shrimp and snails I wanted to keep into a "quarantine tank" (the largest soup pot I own) with 1/4 of the tank water. I then shut off the pump for a bit while filling the tank back up with store-bought sparkling water. It was intense. The entire tank was bubbling like crazy, dead scuds floating around everywhere. I turned my filter on for short periods to make sure it got its fair share of carbonated water at the risk of killing off the bacterial colony (scuds in the filter! death to scuds!).

After a couple hours, the fizzing died down so I drained another 1/4 of the water and filled back up with sparkling water (I figured I'd play it safe since I found some scuds hiding in my java moss that looked like they were still twitching. I also ripped out the moss). I let the fizzing die down for several more hours before draining the water to the gravel and filling to the brim (with Prime). Then I drained to the gravel _again_ and filled the tank back up (with Prime).

Given how much dead stuff there was in the tank (and the dubious state of the bacteria in the colony) I let it sit for 2 days with the pump on while checking the nitrate, ammonia, and pH levels. The bacteria recovered quickly and ammonia stayed low while nitrates built up so on the 2nd day I did a 30% water change before drip acclimating my snails and shrimp back in. 

It's been a week and things are looking good:
The shrimp and snails are quite happy (got my first berried shrimp from this colony this morning) and my reinickii and monte carlo carpet are showing new growth now that they aren't being ravaged by scuds (death to scuds!). I haven't seen a scuds since the Big One and I've pulled out the occasional surviving bladder snail (4-5 total, haven't seen any more). While it's still too soon to say whether the Big One was entirely successful, I'm feeling pretty optimistic.

tl;dr I carbonated my tank and it killed everything, it was wonderful.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

UPDATE 4:
It sort of didn't work.

Unfortunately, the Big One ultimately did not kill _every_ scud in the tank. Somewhere in the gravel, or the java moss, or the MC carpet, there must have been a couple survivors that banded together after the bubblepocalypse and repopulated their subterranean world.

The upside is that I now see 1-2 scuds a day (instead of hundreds-thousands) and I just kill them when I see them.
I think they're content to live in the 1.5" MC carpet so they don't bother the surface-dwellers too much. As a result, my AR mini and MC are able to grow without being eaten alive by the scud horde, and my shrimp babies don't seem to be scud snacks.

I'll call it a partial victory, I can live with this.

This is fine - Imgur


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## hcaqua (Jul 19, 2017)

I tried to build a trap. It might help to at least control their numbers, but can't get rid of all of them. 

Check it out:
https://youtu.be/qk9PnL3eUOQ


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

hcaqua said:


> I tried to build a trap. It might help to at least control their numbers, but can't get rid of all of them.
> 
> Check it out:
> https://youtu.be/qk9PnL3eUOQ



I was wondering how you would keep the shrimp out but then I got to the end and saw a bunch of cherries (?) sitting at the bottle of the bottle happily munching away.
Reminds me of catching wasps over the summer.


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