# Best needle wheel pump for a 37g



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The more I read abot these the more I like them. I would be hooking it up after the filter on the outflow side of a Rena XP! or an Eheim 2222. I see that this will bump up the flow rate of the filter I put it on and hope this wont cause any issues.

Thanks.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Danner's I hear are pretty good.

I made a thread about it, did you see it?
It has some list of good pumps on there and I made one myself which is working pretty well and lots cheaper.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Yeah, it's you fault I want to do this now. :hihi:

I see that you were using a maxi jet 1200 outside of your tank. Is that a needle wheel pump, or is that just what they call a powerhead with a needle like impeller? 

I assume this is it?
http://shop.bhg.com/show_product/76096/?utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=datafeed&utm_term=76096

Im not sure if I need one that large for my 37g. 

Would there be any benefit buying the $50-$70 danner or sedra unit?

Also, I really didnt want to hijack your thread with my questions. :thumbsup:


Natty said:


> Danner's I hear are pretty good.
> 
> I made a thread about it, did you see it?
> It has some list of good pumps on there and I made one myself which is working pretty well and lots cheaper.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Bold=directly to your question.

I don't mind you asking a similar question in my threads, your questions might be something I wanted to ask myself. I don't have any problem with that :tongue: It's cool with me.

*I guess what I liked with my method was that all you really need is a cheap maxijet. It's just a regular powerhead. It doesn't have a needle wheel and the bubbles are pretty small. There's the download link here where you can watch the video and see how small the bubble is*:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MECGS1UZ

That's at only 2bps too! I didn't even need to poke any holes in it either. You can try poking holes in it to see if it gives you better results but today, while looking inside my tank, I notice that my bubbles were even better than yesturday when I first installed it. Very tiny bubbles drifting around, much smaller than what comes out of a glass diffuser. The only real sound you hear is when the bubble smacks the impellers from inside the powerhead and that can easily be muted by covering it up, btw I hear the needle wheel pumps also have that issue too. However, I'm unsure if covering it up might lead to overheating. I've only tried this method out for a day or two, so it'll take me awhile to see if it works. Don't want to be too naive, so I'll wait for awhile till I'll be more freely to advise people to try the method.

The maxijet is air tight as well. You'll need 5/8" tubing on one side and 1/2" tubing for the other.

*I don't really know how much smaller a danner or sedra can get you because I've never tried it out but I don't see it improving THAT much to be worth it. My bubbles are tiny as it is, almost mist like...maxijet is only $10-15, you can get a smaller size if you want.* 

So far, I'm testing out if it will remain efficient, air tight and won't leak, and overheating possibilities that Carole brought up. I haven't had any overheating problems at all right now, but only time will tell.

Just download that 11 mb video, you'll see the bubbles in there.



bsmith782 said:


> Yeah, it's you fault I want to do this now. :hihi:
> 
> I see that you were using a maxi jet 1200 outside of your tank. Is that a needle wheel pump, or is that just what they call a powerhead with a needle like impeller?
> 
> ...


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I wonder if I could modify the impeller with small cuts in it to make it more needlewheel like? Im sure that it would cut the flow down a little but im dont think it would be too noticable.

What size tank are you running that on?


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> I wonder if I could modify the impeller with small cuts in it to make it more needlewheel like? Im sure that it would cut the flow down a little but im dont think it would be too noticable.
> 
> What size tank are you running that on?


38, which is 1 gallon from yours :hihi:

Here's a good link that I got some of my info off of, this guy tells you how to poke the holes

Read posts from atrixnet. That thread is also pretty neat.
http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...-wheel-powerheads.html?highlight=needle+wheel

And here, type in Needle Wheel for search on top left line and make it scan only for thread titles only:
http://www.barrreport.com/search.php

You'll get stuff about sedra, octopus brand, danner 2/3, etc.


In my honest opinion, I'm very happy with my method, it's able to keep up with a good 5bps (testing purposes), maybe a bit more. I get very tiny bubbles circulating the tank, I just don't see the huge urge to buy the needle wheel pumps, especially the more expensive ones like danner anymore.

I'm pretty sure they're more effective in some way, but the question is, how much more effective can they really be? You can only really obtain a true mist like state if you do it with a mazzei which is a bit impractical, especially for the common hobbyist or with a SW tank, in which the solubility of gases like CO2, is much higher, correct me if I'm wrong. For fresh water, it's almost impossible other than mazzei to get a fine mist better than this.

Until I find a good reason, I'll stick to my methods :tongue: . Maybe you can try both, a danner 2 or 3 and the maxijet and see if there's any huge difference and tell us your findings?

Oh yeah, I also heard that some people actually increase the tubing after the pump so that the smashed up bubbles are able to further diffuse as they travel along it. I know I've done it with mines but some people really add a lot of length of tubing afterwards.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Sounds like im going to be getting a maxi jet, ill reserve the danner/sedra pump for later if needs be. 

I searched and I came up with your post and one by Orlando the others just touched on the concept.

Ill give those links a click and see if I can come up with some more questions.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> Sounds like im going to be getting a maxi jet, ill reserve the danner/sedra pump for later if needs be.
> 
> I searched and I came up with your post and one by Orlando the others just touched on the concept.
> 
> Ill give those links a click and see if I can come up with some more questions.


Yeah, you can get it for very cheap, especially on the SNS.

Hey, let me try it a bit more for a few days, incase there's any issues to be found. It'll suck if I found an issue and you already bought your maxijet. Either way, maxijets have a good resale value since they're commonly sought after. 

If you want to play it safe, let me test it for awhile longer, if you wanna give it a try, then go ahead. Just wanted to say that.

Its been a bit over 2 days and I still don't have any problems and the sound is lower now even without covering it up.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Not a bad idea. Im not off again untill thursday. Wont be able to go to Lowes untill then to get some new tubing.

Now the question, which filter do I put it on the XP1 or the 2222?



Natty said:


> Yeah, you can get it for very cheap, especially on the SNS.
> 
> Hey, let me try it a bit more for a few days, incase there's any issues to be found. It'll suck if I found an issue and you already bought your maxijet. Either way, maxijets have a good resale value since they're commonly sought after.
> 
> ...


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> Not a bad idea. Im not off again untill thursday. Wont be able to go to Lowes untill then to get some new tubing.
> 
> Now the question, which filter do I put it on the XP1 or the 2222?


Home Depot had all the parts needed...except maybe the barbs adapters to plug the 5/8" tubing into the 1/2" tubing so I just stuffed the thread ending into the tubing instead and glue gunned it sealed shut...this was just out of being desperate so I dont' advise it but I did it anyway :hihi: and it works great so far!

I would say connect it to a filter that needs the extra push in power. The one that is able to hold more bioload. Either way, you'll need to use an adapter to connect the different size tubes. 

I would pick one with more capacity because a note that was mentioned while I did my research was that if your canister were to become more clogged up with gunk, the extra force of the powerhead pushing water through it will cause air to seep through the seals and cause your canister to bubble, that just means its clean up time.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

I would buy a purpose built needle wheel pump instead of the maxijet if I was going to drop dough to buy something. The one I bought cost about as much as a maxijet, and it's quiet. I don't know how loud the maxijets are out of the tank, but my Gen-X runs quiet and cool.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Where can I find the info on the pump you bought and what size tank are you running it on with what kind of canister filter?



eyebeatbadgers said:


> I would buy a purpose built needle wheel pump instead of the maxijet if I was going to drop dough to buy something. The one I bought cost about as much as a maxijet, and it's quiet. I don't know how loud the maxijets are out of the tank, but my Gen-X runs quiet and cool.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> Where can I find the info on the pump you bought and what size tank are you running it on with what kind of canister filter?


His is the Gen X 1000. They're about $25+. Do a quick search on ebay and you should find some, but there are other cheaper places to get them. Go back to my other thread, I've posted a few links that deal with eyebeatbadgers build. He partially gave me the idea which helped me started mines.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I looked all over the place for his thread because you spoke about it in yours. I found nothing...

After looking for a second it looks like those are submersable. I want an inline.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> I looked all over the place for his thread because you spoke about it in yours. I found nothing...
> 
> After looking for a second it looks like those are submersable. I want an inline.


His is submersible and inline capable. Here gimme a second I'll find it. It's in Tom Bar's site too, he has the same username over there.

EDIT

Here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/79074-needle-wheel-help-me-start-up.html

Post #9, eyebeatbadger's. His issue deals with it...the Gen X that is.

I talked it over with a few people including Orlando, who said:



> I would not go cheap on this part of equipment.
> This would be one of the most important components in a planted tank. If you can afford the better model I would do so.
> The Danner pumps are easy to use and pack a good punch. I use them on more than a dozen tanks with no problems. They are very quiet and I can never hear any noise from inside the cabinet.


I think each person has their own seperate opinions on the matter, sorta like how it is with Filstar and Eheim folks, some people can swear for certain things while others swear on the complete opposite, you don't know until you try.

If you're battling yourself and you don't want it to screw up, fork over the extra green and go for Danner's. If you want to save some money, maxijet or Gen X is cool as well. You should also check out the octopus brand that eyebeatbadger brought up, also in Tom's site.

I made mines because I'm a cheapskate, but it worked out for me :tongue:. If I had money, I would get a danner. Epicfish also agreed on this btw.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Were the Rio 600 RVT and 800 RVT pump/powerheads ruled out?
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=WP-TMPH600MV-PLUS
http://www.customaquatic.com/estore/control/product/~product=WP-TMPH800MV-PLUS


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

They were not ruled out but were put down the list when I read the thread at the barr report. Some were claiming that they could leak (I assume) it's lubracating oil into the tank.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

The reef guys hate Rio's for that reason.

I have three Rio powerheads and I haven't had any problems.

I had a Rio 600 RVT for a while and then I sold it to jake. It made a nice mist of bubbles, but it was too powerful for the 15g that I wanted to use it in.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thats what I read at the barreport. :hihi:

It's getting confusing now. Buy a cheaper (maxi/rio/gen x) and mod the impeller with holes or wait a couple of weeks and buy the more expensive (danner/sedra) pump and forget about it.



Left C said:


> The reef guys hate Rio's for that reason.
> 
> I have three Rio powerheads and I haven't had any problems.
> 
> I had a Rio 600 RVT for a while and then I sold it to jake. It made a nice mist of bubbles, but it was too powerful for the 15g that I wanted to use it in.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm having the same thought process, I'm leaning toward the Danner.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

You don't have to do any mods to the Rio RVT impeller. To make it work is simple. Take the long piece of tubing with the air filter off and plug in your CO2 tubing where it connected. Put it in the aquarium and then turn it on and the CO2 on. Then, zillions of tiny bubbles.

Rio even makes a pre-filter that you can use, but you have to do a bit of grinding on it to make it fit. It is made for the regular non-RVT powerheads. Also, you can buy a RVT kit that will fit the Rio 200, 400, 600 and 800.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I guess the RVT is the designation for that crazy looking impeller on the rio?

Further more whats stopping me from modding the impeller in my XP1 or 2222 with come holes other then the fact that the impeller for one of these is as much as the lesser priced pumps????:icon_eek:


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

The RVT (rejuvenating venturi ?) is for the impeller and the way that air or CO2 passes through the powerhead. I forgot what the T stands for.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Bsmith just get a true needle wheel and call it a day. When looking at needle wheel pumps take into consideration their wheel design and as a bonus try to factor how easy it will be to mod the impeller with Enkamat to give better Co2 mist _if _ needed.

Pic 1 is the Danner's impeller, pic 2 is the Sedra's and pic 3 is that of the Sealine/Ocean Runner/Octopus = same pump

*Update*: All the higher end protein skimmers/needle wheel pumps incorporporates the design similar to the Sedra needle wheel, so I would strongly suggest you go with anything that uses this design. Danner IMO should not be on the short list.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks for the info Reasheed. The wheel on the Sedra looks like a bubble smashing beast. Why are you not fond of the Danner?

After looking at the above mentioned pumps the Ocean runners are the most expensive (other then the sedra/danner) then octopus then the Sealine. 

This one looks like a great deal...
http://www.opentip.com/Home-Garden/Sealine-Sl-Needle-Wheel-Utility-Pump-Gph-p-952807.html
Its rather large though, it's kind of hard finding info on these things.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Why are you not fond of the Danner?


While everyone knows Danner makes a reliable standard pump the impeller design of their aerating pump is far from impressive when compared to the other models. Even though I know it works at generating mist I have no doubts if it were to compared side by side to the other models it will not be as good as the others. 

You want the best or close to the best if your gonna spend the money and the Danner IMO is just not up to par with the more efficient impeller designs.

Like I said all the high end protein skimmers use designs similar to the Sedra's  and if you were to mod the impeller the Sedra's makes the process ultra simple from my research.

Heres the impeller of a Sicce PSK-2500 one of the best out there they say, even though most seem to mod it with the enkamat anyway.










It also appears this a variation of the impeller of the Sealine/Ocean Runner/Octopus pumps. Maybe eyebeatbadgers can confirm?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

hrrmm.... lemme do some picture searching. I think it did look similar to that last picture you posted, but my mind fails me. I know I posted a picture of it here one time


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Couldn't find earlier pics, and decided it was probably time to clean the pump anyway. As you can see from the pics, nothing much there to clean!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

^^^ This is what you have, correct?

http://reefwarehouse.com/genx-1000-needle-wheel-pump-p-246.html


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

that's the one, and I think that's where I bought mine from. However, like I was telling Natty a few days ago, if you want to run this pump inline like I do, you'll need to pay special attention to the threading. The inlet and outlet threads are deeply recessed into the pump housing, making a regular hardware store hose barb barely keep seal. It comes with one 1/2", 5/8", and 3/4" barb, so you'll have to buy another one, unless you use one size bigger on the outlet side of the pump. A regular hose barb will only get about two threads deep in the pump before it bottoms out. I used a lot of plumbers tape to make it seal, and there's been no leaks at all for six months now, but it is a point to consider.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thats a heck of alot cheaper then the others.

How long have you had yours running in line for, and what filter do you have it on? I thought it was a rena...


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Heh, I edited my last post with more info. Six months, no issues, great performance, no maintenance until just a few minutes ago, just the hose barb thing I mentioned last post. It's on an Xp2 filter, plumbed in after my DIY inline heater (basically a Rex style reactor with a heater stuck in one side). I get the perfect amount of flow for a 29 gallon tank.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

How many BPS are you running?



eyebeatbadgers said:


> Heh, I edited my last post with more info. Six months, no issues, great performance, no maintenance until just a few minutes ago, just the hose barb thing I mentioned last post. It's on an Xp2 filter, plumbed in after my DIY inline heater (basically a Rex style reactor with a heater stuck in one side). I get the perfect amount of flow for a 29 gallon tank.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> A regular hose barb will only get about two threads deep in the pump before it bottoms out. I used a lot of plumbers tape to make it seal, and there's been no leaks at all for six months now, but it is a point to consider.


Does anyone know if that  Sealine pump suffers from a similar issue?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Do you know if all the pumps are as large as the sealine? This was one of the reasons I kind of oput that one to the bottom of the list.



imeridian said:


> Does anyone know if that  Sealine pump suffers from a similar issue?


Dont know if you just dont like the gen x but this one flows about twice as much as the Sealine, is $5 cheaper and from the looks of EBB's pics is smaller.

http://reefwarehouse.com/genx-1000-n...ump-p-246.html


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The questionable connection of the hose barb is a big turn off for me, so much so that the Gen-X is completely off the list. I don't mind the sealine/octopus being bulky if it will hold a hose barb firmly. I also don't mind paying more if the manufacturing quality is better. I was likely going to go for the 264 GPH version of the Sealine because while there seems to be no consensus on the matter it seems best to try to match pump outputs.


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

Very interesting... I use the Gen-X 1000, but my experiences with the pump differ from EBB. Mine did not have any issue with the threading, and is a bit louder than I would like, though really not bad. The impeller is completely different from EBB's as well. The casing looks exactly the same, but it seems there are different models floating around.

The one I purchased may have well been sitting on a shelf since the dawn of protein skimmers, but I'm not sure...


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Would it matter if the CO2 mist bubbles were coming out of a spray bar, lily pipe, "U" tube duckbill, etc?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Left C said:


> Would it matter if the CO2 mist bubbles were coming out of a spray bar, lily pipe, "U" tube duckbill, etc?


Yes it matters, that is actually good, mist is good.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hum ... which way might be better?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I see. XXX gallons of water on the floor doesnt sound too pleasing. I think the best looking connections I have seen on ANY of these pumps was on the Hydor Seltz pump. I cant tell if it is a needle wheel, I dont think so...
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem.aspx?idProduct=HD12127&child=HD12202



imeridian said:


> The questionable connection of the hose barb is a big turn off for me, so much so that the Gen-X is completely off the list. I don't mind the sealine/octopus being bulky if it will hold a hose barb firmly. I also don't mind paying more if the manufacturing quality is better. I was likely going to go for the 264 GPH version of the Sealine because while there seems to be no consensus on the matter it seems best to try to match pump outputs.


Did you mod the impeller at all?



Minsc said:


> Very interesting... I use the Gen-X 1000, but my experiences with the pump differ from EBB. Mine did not have any issue with the threading, and is a bit louder than I would like, though really not bad. The impeller is completely different from EBB's as well. The casing looks exactly the same, but it seems there are different models floating around.
> 
> The one I purchased may have well been sitting on a shelf since the dawn of protein skimmers, but I'm not sure...


Any mist is good to me. The belching canister must be stopped!!!



Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Yes it matters, that is actually good, mist is good.


I would think a flow tube of some sorts or a straight pipe. This would allow less of the mist to accumulate in the spraybar causing them to revert to a big bubble...



Left C said:


> Hum ... which way might be better?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Try the mist awhile and see yourself, spray the plants with it... :thumbsup:


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

.......


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Wolfen, are you using a glass diffuser, mazzei, needle wheel?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Hey Jeff, I use glass.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I assume its under a spraybar or powerhead?



Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Hey Jeff, I use glass.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Under the glass pipe, only on the 120P.

The head pressure of the pump on my filter is strong enough to
pull a lot of C02 into itself and shoot it across & around.

The smaller tanks, it works better with diffuser on opposite side.

Of course the lower you set the diffuser the better it diffuses, but for
aesthetics and visual balance it looks better midway/ish.

The idea it to pollinate the water. set it in path of flow and maximize
that, when outflow hits the mist it disperses or pollinates.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

If you plumbed a Sendra needle wheel pump inline with your canister filter, would you want the pump to have a similar gph rating? 

Would you not want a pump with a lower or higher output?

Do you attach your CO2 tubing where the airline is attached to the pump's venturi or would you add your CO2 before the pump?

Is the elbow needed?

From: http://www.aquacave.com/SearchResult.aspx?CategoryID=402


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Left C said:


> If you plumbed a Sendra needle wheel pump inline with your canister filter, would you want the pump to have a similar gph rating?
> 
> Would you not want a pump with a lower or higher output?


Those are the questions I've been asking. There doesn't seem to be a consensus. Conveniently most of the smaller needle wheel pumps are pretty close to my 2217's rated flow anyway.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi imeridian

Have you considered plumbing it by itself with an intake strainer and/or plumping it with a Hydor heater, UV sterilizer, etc and not connected to your canister filter?

I believe that the Sedra needle wheel pumps can be run submerged or not submerged.

Left C


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Not really, I'd really prefer to not add additional inflow/outflows to the tank. Likewise, I'm not interested in having a powerhead in the tank.

Now, if I were to switch to a filter system like Helgymatt's, then running a separate bypass for the needle wheel has crossed my mind (similar to his bypass for the reactor).


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I didn't think of a bypass system. That is a very good idea.

I remember that helgymatt gave up on the Mazzei, but I can't find the picture to show what you are mentioning. Do you have a link?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

It's in his tank journal, he kindly wrote up a  full description of his system recently after I had asked about it.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Thanks a bunch!


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

After reading this thread I've been thinking about trying out a needle wheel in line with my canister also. One of my main concerns is the noise from the pump. I spoke with AquaCave today and was told Ocean Runner pumps are quieter than Sedras but Ocean Runners have metric fittings which sounds like it could be a pain trying to find the correct fittings.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm curious about the noise too, primarily if there is a difference in sound level between the bubble being smashed against a needle wheel versus a standard impeller.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

Sound of the bubbles being smashed is just the same as if you had the Co2 line put in the intake of your canister filter. Depending on how fast it is depends on how annoying it is. I run about 4 bps, so it's rapid. No certain brand of pump is going to smash bubbles quietly, just the way it is. My Gen-X pump is quiet, no louder than the Xp2. It's the size of my fist, and I'm an average sized guy. 

The issue with the threading is minor really. The hose barb that I had to buy wasn't meant for this pump, so I figured I'd have to do some retrofitting. Plumbers tape did the trick, as the barb had a very slow leak without it. I don't worry about the barb coming off, it's got at least two or three threads in the pump, maybe more. Either way, it's solidly in there, and isn't coming off or anything.

On the issue with the Danner being a better choice, I just can't justify spending an extra 30+ bucks on a pump that does the exact same thing this one does. It's not like you're choosing between a Ford Fiesta or a Lexus. Both pumps chop bubbles and push water.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Thanks EBB.

I'll probably be able to tune out a continuous bubble smash... at least it won't give me that "I need to pee" feeling that the waterfall of the reactor does.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

From what I have read here is the general consensus.

Put the neddle wheel pump/regular pump after the filter on the outflow side.

Get one that has AT LEAST the same flow as your cannister but for better efficiency MORE flow the better. Less flow would cause constipation in the filter I would imagine.

And imeridian im waiting on a respone from the ebay seller. I guess they work 9-5 too.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> From what I have read here is the general consensus.
> 
> Put the neddle wheel pump/regular pump after the filter on the outflow side.
> 
> ...


After using mines for awhile (powerhead that is), I think a little bit less or more is okay, but if its a lot more, then it'll cause your canister to bubble more often. So I'd opt for one with similar gph, as similar to the canister as possible.

I find that the maxijet 1200 and eheim that I've been using don't work too well together because the maxijet might be a bit too powerful to use inline with the eheim 2217. I'm making them both seperate tomorrow and see if it gets better (bubbling that is).


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Do you think that if you placed the pump before the filter in the intake it would cause water to seep from the canister instead of after the filter causing it to suck air into it?



Natty said:


> After using mines for awhile (powerhead that is), I think a little bit less or more is okay, but if its a lot more, then it'll cause your canister to bubble more often. So I'd opt for one with similar gph, as similar to the canister as possible.
> 
> I find that the maxijet 1200 and eheim that I've been using don't work too well together because the maxijet might be a bit too powerful to use inline with the eheim 2217. I'm making them both seperate tomorrow and see if it gets better (bubbling that is).


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> Do you think that if you placed the pump before the filter in the intake it would cause water to seep from the canister instead of after the filter causing it to suck air into it?


I'm not sure what the extra pressure would do if you place the pump in the intake side, I've never tried it, but for some weird reason, I'm trying to keep myself from using the canister as a reactor of some sorts. It's just based on a lot of mix opinions I got from multiple forums which has made me a bit cautious about it.

However, I think if you pump it through the intake, it'll just end up like a reactor. So you're introducing CO2 enriched water into your tank like from an inline reactor, not misting your plants with CO2, which is your purpose right?

Because one thing I notice about the eheim is that when it bubbles, the bubbles doesn't come out continuously in a steady stream of tiny microscopic air bubbles, but all at once in a random mass release. So I think it's just going to hold the CO2 in there for a bit until there's a lot and most of it will just come out of your canister at once...the process will loop back.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I use my canisters as reactors on my tanks. With no ill side effects mind you for a couple of years now. That is what I was trying to get away from, but hey what works works.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> I use my canisters as reactors on my tanks. With no ill side effects mind you for a couple of years now. That is what I was trying to get away from, but hey what works works.


So it doesn't do the stuff that I thought? 



Natty said:


> Because one thing I notice about the eheim is that when it bubbles, the bubbles doesn't come out continuously in a steady stream of tiny microscopic air bubbles, but all at once in a random mass release. So I think it's just going to hold the CO2 in there for a bit until there's a lot and most of it will just come out of your canister at once...the process will loop back.


That was just a hypothesis, just wondering if something like that happened or not? 

Just wanna know.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Yeah, when the 2217 has gas around the impeller it releases it in spurts that sound like someone pressing the "pulse" button on a blender full of ice. It ranks up there on the list of annoying noises the aquarium makes, but as long as the needle wheel is a more consistent "blurp" sound I think it'll be okay. 

I mustn't have actually hit "post" earlier, I had replied to you bsmith saying that adding the needle wheel inline before the canister was pretty much defeating the purpose of using the needle wheel, at least from my point of view, though I suppose it would help the gas dissolve into the water before hitting the Rena impeller and eliminate the misting aspect altogether.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

If what you think it will do is supply the tank with a nice mist of co2 (at time there is no mist cant really figure that one out) with the occasional "canister fart" then you thought correctly. 

The way I see it using your filter as a reactor is nothing more then what we are proposing in thios thread. It just gives the co2 more time to interact with the water because of all of the filter media in the tank.

The lodest part I have injecting the co2 into the canister is the initial injection into the intake tube. Other then that its silent. Except for the farts.

Do this if you want take the co2 tube and put it into the intake of you2 2217 for a couple of days. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

My 2213 (the same design as the 2217 I think) does a wonderful job as a reactor. My Mini-M is a lush rainforest compared to my 37. Im sure that its not all due to the efficency of the 2213 dissolving the co2 but also that its a smaller tank and circulation is far better.

But if the needle wheel was before the filter not only would it increase output (perhaps getting rid of the canister farts butalso allow it io be more broken up before it enters further increasing the efficency of the canister as a reactor...



imeridian said:


> Yeah, when the 2217 has gas around the impeller it releases it in spurts that sound like someone pressing the "pulse" button on a blender full of ice. It ranks up there on the list of annoying noises the aquarium makes, but as long as the needle wheel is a more consistent "blurp" sound I think it'll be okay.
> 
> I mustn't have actually hit "post" earlier, I had replied to you bsmith saying that adding the needle wheel inline before the canister was pretty much defeating the purpose of using the needle wheel, at least from my point of view, though I suppose it would help the gas dissolve into the water before hitting the Rena impeller and eliminate the misting aspect altogether.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

So having it on your intake will cause gas build ups in your canister, causing it to spit up a bunch of bubbles every once in awhile...the problem that I'm having now?



bsmith said:


> The lodest part I have injecting the co2 into the canister is the initial injection into the intake tube. Other then that its silent. Except for the farts.


I think in that case, it's just better to either run it completely seperate from each other or find a more compatible pump.

I think putting it before the canister will just demean the whole misting process though.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

How often does your canister burp?



Natty said:


> So having it on your intake will cause gas build ups in your canister, causing it to spit up a bunch of bubbles every once in awhile...the problem that I'm having now?
> 
> 
> 
> I think in that case, it's just better to either run it completely seperate from each other or find a more compatible pump.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> How often does your canister burp?


With the powerhead inline?

I'm unsure since I don't time it but every......3-10 mins?

It does a lot less without the powerhead after putting the canister half way below the aquarium's waterline


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Ill bet if you got a new 0-ring that would stop. It shouldnt be burping at all if there is no powerhead hooked up. Probly wouldnt even with the powerhead if there was a proper seal.

In my rena xp1 with 3 bps I get a burp every couple of hours in my eheim 222 it is slightly more frequently then that.



Natty said:


> With the powerhead inline?
> 
> I'm unsure since I don't time it but every......3-10 mins?
> 
> It does a lot less without the powerhead after putting the canister half way below the aquarium's waterline


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Well, is that non-powerhead-involved burping a result of heavy pearling in the tank? I know that's what has been causing mine to grind bubbles lately.


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

imeridian said:


> Well, is that non-powerhead-involved burping a result of heavy pearling in the tank? I know that's what has been causing mine to grind bubbles lately.


Lol, yeah that use to happen to me quite a bit awhile back when I was running 2.5 wpg ah supply.

@bsmith

Yeah but this has happened since the beginning when I got it. I had bubbling problems in the beginning but now that it's lower than my tank waterline, I almost never see it bubbling.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Every 3-10 minutes that would have to be the wildest pearling ever in history! All directed into the intake tube. 

Your serious, you have had cavitation in you filter caused from o2 bubbles???



imeridian said:


> Well, is that non-powerhead-involved burping a result of heavy pearling in the tank? I know that's what has been causing mine to grind bubbles lately.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Yes, over the last couple of days I have even had my 2028 spit bubbles out. 

I have noticed an increase in bubble grinding in the 2217 since I rearranged the plumbing so that the reactor comes before the UVS though. While it doesn't seem too plausible I think some of the gas from the reactor is backing up into the 2217. Mine is not every three minutes though, but maybe fifteen, I haven't really measured the intervals.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Is your 2028 hooked up to co2?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

No, the 2217 goes to the reactor and UVS. The 2028 has only the inline heater.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Sounds like an o-ring too.



imeridian said:


> No, the 2217 goes to the reactor and UVS. The 2028 has only the inline heater.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Nah, it's fine. The 2028 didn't start spurting bubbles until just recently when the pearling went into overdrive. The 2217 rarely did, it's worse now since I've changed the plumbing around. The bubble smashing/spurting doesn't happen until later in the photo-period anyway.

In any case, I lubricate my o-rings with silicone grease, so it's pretty much a non-issue. Try dosing 2ml of H2O2 per gallon into a tank that already pearls heavily, when you see the tank look like a shaken bottle of soda water you'll understand, lol.  While I'm not doing that anymore, there was a lot of cavitation when I was.

...that combined with the waterfall in my reactor, it's times like this where I wish I had a clear one, I'd like to see just how much gas is actually in there. It was still making the waterfall noise at 4AM! That is a bit of a concern, actually. I'm perhaps injecting more CO2 than my reactor can handle, so it's serving as a time-release gas pocket during the night, which is then also serving to waste CO2. All the more reason to try something else, right?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Yup. I just cant see pearling causing cavitation in the filter. I assume youwere using the H202 for the algea issues?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Yes, the H2O2 was to combat algae and it appears to have been quite successful when combined with the Excel & water changes.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So you got that under control?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

With some crossed fingers and a knock on the wooden desk... yes, my algae situation is under control. I did tweak the CO2 up just a hair yesterday because I noticed some remaining algae holdouts, but I'm fairly confident I'm very close to being algae-free.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

:thumbsup:



imeridian said:


> With some crossed fingers and a knock on the wooden desk... yes, my algae situation is under control. I did tweak the CO2 up just a hair yesterday because I noticed some remaining algae holdouts, but I'm fairly confident I'm very close to being algae-free.


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