# Tonina sp. Belem



## KeNNy- (Jan 31, 2006)

I've been having a bunch of Toninas. They were growing wonderfully for one month, easily grown twice their original length. Initially, I was using a 40Watts light over 20Galloon tank. 

So then, I thought there was not enough lights as I had glossos in my tank. Hence I upgraded to add 36Watts light. My glossos were pearling nicely.

However, the toninas which used to be growing well; are not doing so well anymore. The toninas which are right under the intense lightning seem to be turning brown and dying off. Meanwhile those which are slightly shaded seemed to be doing well.

Could intensive lighting kill toninas? I always thought more lightning is essential for plant growth.

As for nutrients, I'm dosing Brighty K and Green Brighty Step 1 with some doses of KNO3, PO4. I believe there's more than enough nutrients in my tank! CO2 levels are about 1-2 bps for my tank.

Guys, do you any opinions? It's very hard to get information about toninas.

Save my toninas.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Kenny
Tonina like very soft acidic water, with an acidic sub, they also like alot of light, but not for full 10 hours, are you burning the 40w+ the 36w fixture for 10 hours?
Think! go back to what was working, and make changes slowly.

With an increase in light, you will need an increase in C02 and other nutrient's as well.

You say the Tonina is turning brown? is it algae? greendust? can you rub it off with your fingers? if so, to much light to fast, increase C02, back off the light "intesity" a bit.

I have been growing Tonina's for 3 or 4 years, there is alot more info out now than when I started growing it..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

T belem is the easiest of the species to grow.

It does not need low pH nor acidic conditioons to grow well.
No plant I've ever grown needs these conditions.

It does like softer KH's, 3 or so seems good.
I routinely get 3-4" a week of this plant.

The KH and nitrogen rather than the pH/substrate.

Sure, there is info, does not mean it's right.
When they get the growth rates and health I have, then they can talk.

But I do not have acidic substrates, nor low pH. I do have plenty of N and plenty of light(10 hours), plenty of CO2 etc.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## KeNNy- (Jan 31, 2006)

Nope it isn't algae. I can't seem to get it off my fingers.

TomBar: The problem is, it seems plants which are under intensive lightning which are the ones that are affected. Meanwhile, the shadier ones are doing well, like how they used to. But nevertheless Tom, I'll keep in mind about the essential nutrients for toninas. The N you're talking about is Nitrates right (A product I can get from KNO3?). Pardon my ignorance during chemistry lessons.

Wolfenxxx: I'll try that regime. And yes, I'm burning both fixtures for a full 10 hours a day.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The reason why the plants die under higher light and not under the lower light is they do not have enough nutrients to make full use of the high light for that grow rate.

At lower light, they do fine though.

Sort of like driving a car, if you go very fast, you get worse Kilometers/liter than if you drove slow and steady.

I think it's your CO2 based on the color etc.
I use TMG(Tropica) for traces.
KNO3, KH2PO4, and add a little GH(Mg/Ca).

Seems like you are doing that for the most part.
So all that is left is the CO2.

I have the plants growing fast and under high light and at 11hour/day lengths without issues.

Therefore.................if it requires acidic pH, acidic substrate, requires short day length, etc...........

Why are my plants growing so fast?

This is a useful way to test if something is true or not. 
Many said PO4 caused algae, so we added it, => no algae.

So is adding PO4 to a planted tank going to cause algae if we can repeat it and have no algae? No.

Such practical matters are fairly straight forward. If someone else is doing it, it's likely you can also. 

But what aspects are really helping or not is another issue. Then you compare various methods to see which aspect is useful or not.

I recently got many so called hard to grow plants and I've found them to be fun to grow and all, but nothing particularly special, other than needing a lower KH.

They also seem to like high CO2(like most plants) and good KNO3 dosing.
ADA soil has some NH4 in it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Not "need" per se, but they do like it, no doubt, that is obvious to the naked eye, within a matter of a day or so.

I can and still do grow it well in plain Flourite and sand, but not everyone can do that, mainly because, they do not know how to use the light/C02.

What we need to do now is figure out how to "maximise" C02, should need no more than a bubble a sec.
Personally, I do not want 3 to 4" a week out of my plant's, that's to much work, I do get excellent growth, in most of my plant's as is.

I have always had some mist coming from my spraybar's/Lily pipes, but I am usually pumping 4 or 5 bps, thats alot, I have built a couple of new reactors today of different sizes with bio-balls for busting up the bubbles.
So far, the little 1 1/2"x12" tip to tip reactor, seems to be giving me a much better mist, I will use it for a couple days or so and see if things improve yet even more, not that they need it, but will see.

Now we just need to find the perfect reactor based on flow rate, I really do not want a beetle/diffuser inside the tank, less I have inside the more I likes it.


plantbrain said:


> T belem is the easiest of the species to grow.
> 
> It does not need low pH nor acidic conditioons to grow well.
> No plant I've ever grown needs these conditions.
> ...


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## KeNNy- (Jan 31, 2006)

> What we need to do now is figure out how to "maximise" C02, should need no more than a bubble a sec.


do I need more than a bubble, or "NO" more than a bubble per second? I'm using a CO2 atomiser. It's a piracy of the ones you see in ADA product lines. It's pretty efficient.

I'm dosing additional KNO3 everyday. Will be observing how it turns out.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You should place the atomizer in the path of the filter outflow.
This should help blow all the little bubbles all around the tank well.

I think it you adjust that some, you will see a dramatic improvement.
CO2 is going to be one of the most important things as long as you add enough dry ferts/traces etc.

Stay on top of it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## KeNNy- (Jan 31, 2006)

I'm giving it about 1.5 bubbles per second now  Hopefully I'll obtain improvement.

Actually, I've increased the lighting to help my glossos grow to cover as a lawn, as my glossos are currently in small patches. But I would like to ask this, after the lawn is covered; can I reduce the lighting to hope for slower growth? Will this kill plants?

This is because I don't think I can afford the high maintainance associated with 75Watts of lighting (ferts, dosing, pruning, constant observation, etc). The growth is just too crazy. Everything in my aquarium is growing like wild cats at 75Watts. I would wish to reduce it back to 40Watts of lighting once everything is full grown. Will that be possible?

Thank you for your kind inputs to this thread.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Sure it is possible, just learn to master your C02/light relationship.
The C02 is the tricky part, it has to be optimal, keep tweaking till you get desired results, Tom's mist method seems to be working well, still a bit early to tell yet.
I modified my reactor so it does not completely dissolve all the C02, some good misting involved, only down side is 6 or 7 hours into photoperiod, tank looks like it was nuked with Alka Seltzer...haha


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Yes, a by product of the CO2 mist: too many bubbles for folk's taste, everyone loved the pearling before.........what happened?

You can see the plants grow very well vs the other non mist methods.

I looked back at some of my older photos and plants I had with low KH in FL.
I grew the Tonia and the Erios just as fast and well when....the CO2 was high/KH low and water column dosed well.

I recall little differences between the T fluviatilis in Flourite and the ADA soil.
Same with Erios and other so called hard to grow plants.

So why might the ADa soil, or FB affect growth in some tanks bu twith good controls, not others?

What does aDa soil impact? Lowers KH. Makes it tougher to use the pH/KH table, so you have to eyeball CO2 and you have lower KH.

If you never eyeballed CO2 to max it out, and if you had high KH, since flourite has no influence on KH, what dio you reallty think is occuring?

Without testing and experimenting, you will not be able infer much based on observations alone. That's why folks experiment, to see about the real causes rather than what some claim.

I'd say good nutrient conmtent(non limiting) good cO2 plays the most significant role.


The plants require good nutrients/CO2/low KH, not acidic substrates or nutrient rich substrates or ADa substrates.

ADA substrates have other more aesthetic factors I like, no rinsing, soft non galss scratching, relatively econmical, nice color. 
So either way, you will do well to get them, but I'm not going to speculate when my observations and test suggest other caustive reasons for the good health/growth of certain species. Some species that do better in ADA soil: R green appears to do better, HC as well, but it did pretty good in Onyx, but not as good. I;m not sure about other plant species just yet.

Note: I did this same process about 10 years ago when Flourite came out and rallied for it's use by aquarist. Sand was and is cheap, effective also. 

So it's nothing particularly new to me in most respects.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## KeNNy- (Jan 31, 2006)

> Tom's mist method seems to be working well, still a bit early to tell yet.


Can I be enlightened about this mist method?


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...o2-revelations.html?highlight=CO2+REVELATIONS

-and-

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...tions-part-2-a.html?highlight=CO2+REVELATIONS


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