# Substrates that you would NOT use.



## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

This was my first Thread here at PT. Thought I'd bring it up again. Just to see if I get any responses this time.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

I would not use dirt or soil. I have used peat/kitty litter under 1-2mm gravel in a low tech 10 gal tank that grows plants remarkably well when compared to the other 10gal tanks I have with just gravel or onyx sand.

I don't think I would use peat in a co2 injected hi-tech tank for fear of too much organic matter in the substrate and creating potential algae issues with the higher light outputs.


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## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

I would not use soil myself, mostly cause I don't remeber how and I missed a certain article on Soil Substrates.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I would not use soil, because I am not confident about the long term stability of it. (Big bubbles of foul-smelling gas cross my mind... eeww).

I would not use fine playsand, because it's messy and needs a lot of attention to keep the pristine "beach look". Poop just stays on top of it, and with a biofilm the nice white sand turns into some gray stuff.

I think which exact substrate you use is less important than light and nutrition for plants. Just my opinion though... other ppl have other opinions roud:


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Would not use soil myself; too messy and similar to the reason that WP stated.

After switching to first playsand and then pool filter sand (both with peat in the lower layer), I don't think I'll ever pay for specialized stuff such as eco, fluorite, etc. Get similar results using root tabs and water column nutrients instead.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Jelly.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Steer Manure Blend from Home Depot. But I have used it growing orchids just fine :icon_bigg


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

A serious question deserves a serious answer... why not leave the BS out?


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

I've never considered using soil so I guess that puts it on top of my list automatically. 

From experience I wouldn't use regular aquarium gravel (6-10mm grains) ever again as it's too hard to get fine stemed plants to anchor in it. I use it in my 40g tank and I have a hard time keeping HC rooted in it...new growth tends to hover above the gravel.


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## Oqsy (Jul 3, 2004)

playsand or simlilarly fine grained sands, especially over peat. no flow through substrate + high organics = really really yucky substrate, especially if you don't churn the top layer regularly. I ended up with a room that smelled like rotten eggs from this combination. if going with playsand, throw quite a bit of larger gravel in there to let oxygen into the mix... otherwise you're dealing with a time bomb. also, play sand + BGA = REALLY hard to deal with. whole pieces of BGA with big chunks of sand vacuum out clumped together like another interesting substrate choice: kitty litter. i've never used kitty litter, but have read so many horror stories that I stayed away from that path... for now. Also would like to give a less than satisfactory review for profile/turface/etc. while it does have a higher CEC than pretty much anything else used in aquariums, it is very very light, and allows even the least destructive fish too many opportunities for rescaping the tank themselves. currently using flourite in a 29 and black t-grade colorquartz in a 20H with no complaints about either... obviously each has benefits and drawbacks, but plants are doing well in both, and both are relatively mess free. 

Oqsy


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Wasserpest said:


> A serious question deserves a serious answer... why not leave the BS out?


Thank you, thank you, thank you for giving me something to laugh about today.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Riding my bike out a country road I came across a sign: "Free horse manure"
I thought to myself, "How about that? Someone does give a s**t"

I hate light weight substrates.

I have little issue with soil, it can be messy, but don't add so much. Pre soaking it for 2-3 weeks to remove the NH4 or boiling it for 10 minutes will remove the algae causing NH4, or you can also use carbon/zeolite for the first 20-30 days of set up.

Peat works great, acidification of the substrate is part of the point, adding some source of carbon for the bacteria is another(new tanks do not have any carbon for the bacteria, they do not live on NH4 alone, they need other sources of electron donors, just like us, they need their carbs.

Decomposer bacteria in aerobic conditions respire CO2. 
That CO2 must come from somewhere.
This carbon source is not the same as CO2 gas added for the plants, this an organic source of carbon, mulm, peat, leonardite, soil, manure etc.

You need not add a lot, just enough to get the tank started before your plants/fish waste start adding a steady supply.

Most substrates work pretty well IME.

I think heating cables and root tabs are the things I'd never use again.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Ok other than soil substrates. LOL Someday you guys will all advance to the point where you can make a soil substrate that isn't messy, grows plants, and lasts for 10+ years without adding anything to it. Until then, what are you guys willing to struggle along with?


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

SCMurphy said:


> Ok other than soil substrates. LOL Someday you guys will all advance to the point where you can make a soil substrate that isn't messy, grows plants, and lasts for 10+ years without adding anything to it. Until then, what are you guys willing to struggle along with?


Some of us have been waiting for a good year now to advance, but alas there are no good articles to be found....*sigh* A wink's as good as a nudge to a blind bat, eh? , eh? , nudge nudge, wink  wink , know what i mean? , eh? 

I've heard of many people having troubles with Eco-Complete changing water hardness and then others say no problems at all. Nonetheless, it makes me wary of it.

I really like Profile as a cheap alternative to Flourite, which is why it pains me that it is so frustratingly light and ugly. Once plants are rooted it does fine though.


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## sawallace (Jan 24, 2005)

As much as I'd like to switch from Eco to silica sand, I'll probably stick with Eco, at least till I set up a new tank.


I'd never use kitty litter or large gravel.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> ...what are you guys willing to struggle along with?


Ah okay now you are changing the subject :wink: 

I like that bag of kitty litter that's still sitting in my garage. I know it's too cheap to be taken seriously, but it works well for me. Profile is good too, but yes, the orangy loamy color is a whole degree uglier than flourite.

I think my next tank is going to have a bottom layer of kitty litter, and a top layer of price-matched flourite. Perfect. :fish:


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

I really like my current mix of coarse quartz sand and Profile. It's very easy to plant in as the grains are smooth and the sand collapses on the inserted roots easily. The sand also has enough color diverstiy so that the Profile blends right in. Finally, 100# of the sand costs $10. I used 150# of sand and three 8# bags of Profile (specifically Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil) to do my 125g tank (okay, I also threw in a bag of Flourite  ).

Now if I can only muster up the courage to swap out the plain gravel in my 40...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

MPV turface is 12$, same as Profile for 3-4x the cost.
Mixed 50/50 with a good color matched gravel will make it tough to beat for performance/cost.
The gravel adds the needed weight.


regards, 
Tom Barr


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Please, what is MPV?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Turface MVP, one of the Turface flavors, made by Profile Products.

It is suspected that some of the products by Profile (Schultz Aquatic Soil, Profile, Turface etc) only differ in packaging and price. :tongue:


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

It works just like Flourite in that it is initially inert, but has a very high CEC (cation exchange coefficient). In other words it attracts nutrients well and makes them available to the plant's roots. The problem with it is that it is a VERY butt ugly uniform orange color and is very light weight making it next to impossible to plant delicate or intricate plants in. Hence, the reason for suggesting to mix it with heavier gravel.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I've used Flourite, Onyx sand, Eco/Volcanite, small quartz gravel, Moon sand alone, Profile, and various layered concoctions including as much as a half inch layer of peat and leonardite as well as soil/leonaride/peat with Sean's unpatented terra cotta ironite soup.

I'm not interested in kitty litter. I also rejected some speedy dry. Don't like the mush. Also, in the future, the terra cotta will be left out of my soil recipes (see replanting pic below). All combinations grew plants well.


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## aquabillpers (Nov 28, 2003)

OK, I'll dissent.

I would not use any substrate that would cost me more that $5.00 unless there was a clear reason to do that.

And even after two years of looking for one, no one has given me that reason.

The closest was that some of the "special" substrates present a lot of surfaces for bacteria to occupy, this enhancing the conversion of waste into plant nutrients. But 2mm - 3mm silica gravel would seem to do that, too.

"It looks better" is a good reason, but for $100 plus, not enough for me.

Some of them leach iron or calcium into the water column, but there are better, cheaper ways to add those - if they are needed.

I use soil/gravel substrates and also plain gravel augmented with chemical nutrients. The former works fine; the latter is still experimental for me but I expect good results.

There! <g>

Bill


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## sarahbobarah (May 20, 2005)

I've had numerous tanks, but so far, the best results I've had have been from a mixture of peatmoss and black sand as the one inch bottom layer, with a layer of plain old Aquatic Soil (Schultz) one inch on top of that. 

What would I not ever, ever use (again)? Sand. After cleaning one tank out, I nearly puked from the smell. 

What would I be willing to work with or try? Hmm..... mud and old leaves.


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## Talonstorm (Nov 6, 2004)

OK, I will go out on a limb here and say that I will never use flourite again. There are several reasons why (this is entirely my own experience and opinion and feel free to disagree). First, it was horrible to rinse, it took literally hours and I finally gave up figuring I would never be able to rinse it to my satisfaction. The first 5 washes produced something the consistancy of thin clay. After that, just a horrid reddish brown dust. Finally, I gave up and put it in the tank. Now everytime I move something I get a cloud of nasty red dust swirl through the water (hehe, my new eheim takes it out really quick though). The second reason is the color, I absolutely hate it. I plan on redoing the tank in the near future with something dark grey to black in color. Lastly, I saw very little if any improvement in plant growth after switching from plain gravel. I know there are many factors in this, but I do have sufficient light and nutrients and all else equal, I expected some sort of improvement. The only good feature I will say about it was that it holds the plants down much better than regular gravel. Anyway, that is solely my own opinion. :tongue: 

Tina


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## gsg (Apr 11, 2005)

I won't ever use JBL Aquabasis Plus as a bottom fertilized layer again. Ir rockets your kH to the sky. Even when it's under a 2' inert gravel layer. Of course, they don't mention a single word in the bag about how it affects your water paremeters.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Talonstorm said:


> First, it was horrible to rinse, it took literally hours and I finally gave up figuring I would never be able to rinse it to my satisfaction. The first 5 washes produced something the consistancy of thin clay. After that, just a horrid reddish brown dust. Finally, I gave up and put it in the tank. Now everytime I move something I get a cloud of nasty red dust swirl through the water (hehe, my new eheim takes it out really quick though).


I agree with you on the other reasons, like color is personal pref (once it is mosty covered with plants it doesn't look too bad) and no it doesn't grow plants better if lights and/or nutrients are not in line. However, that washing part... I think the trick is to add water very v e r y slowly, and let it stand a few days, then start up filtration, wait another day or two (what's a week if you want a tank that lasts many years). IME the fine stuff moves down towards the bottom, and a quick vacuuming takes care of the surface dusty stuff.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

My one tank with Flourite was set up without any washing. I just poured it into the tank then filled it with water very gently. using a shower-head type nozzle on the filling hose worked well for me. My biggest problem wasn't with general clouding of the water column, but surface scum being deposited on the glass whenever I stopped the filling to plant/'scape.

I ended up running a diatom filter after I was done wiping off the glass, using a water pitcher as a surface extractor so that it (the surface scum) would all get filtered out. I have some picture of the operation on my site (under the 20g tank journal).


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## Talonstorm (Nov 6, 2004)

To be honest with you, I have done my water changes without vacuuming the gravel since I put the flourite in. I was afraid of the mess it would make if I tried to vacuum it and I wasn't sure how to go about it without uprooting the plants. I did add the water very slowly when I filled the tank, I didn't get much initial clouding, but lots of nasty red scum on the glass and water surface. The clouding every time I move something now though is terrible. What a pain! I just prefer to use something different in the future and avoid the whole experience, lol.

Tina


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I just rinse the flourite 3x and add, then slowly fill the tank.
This was dfiscussed years and years ago.

Don't like the color? Onyx sand is my personal preference.

I like light colorred gravels but no one makes any plant specific. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I am planning a new tank... a 20 gallon one. I would like to try for a richer substrate, and a leaner water column.

For substrate layering I am thinking (from the bottom up):

- a bunch of jobes sticks evenly distributed on the bottom glass

- kitty litter (the non-clumping, not disintegrating kind that's sitting in a bag in my garage) about 1/2 in in front to about 1.5 in towards one corner

- a load of mulm from established tanks to get the thing biologically active

- pricematched flourite (80% of one bag) covering the litter stuff

- 20% of the flourite washed as a cover to prevent a mess in the water column

Any thoughts, critisism, discouragement?


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## sarahbobarah (May 20, 2005)

I'm wary of the cat litter...... 

And which Jobe sticks do you intend to use?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I should have added that with the type of KL that I have I already had some good successful tanks made. No mushy stuff. Think Profile, with a less awful color roud: 

Jobes probably the Ferns and Palms flavor, NPK 16-2-5 or so iirc.


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

The kitty liter doesn't scare me nearly as much as the thought of layering the bottom with jobes sticks. The moment you pull up some plants you're going to have an algae bloom like crazy when those highly concentrated ferts hit the water column.

It sounds like you're bent on not spending a lot of cash so why not try a soil tank? There is a way to treat soil so that there are no organics left in it when it is added. Then all you are left with is a mineralized soil with micros and macros to last a lifetime. 

I have a friend helping me to do this now. You need Muriate of Potash (potassium), Dolomite, Clay, and a Bag and el cheapo topsoil (less likely to have fertilizers). Put the soil in a container and fill it with water. Swish the soil around a good bit to get the water distributed. Let it sit a few days and change the water and swish it around again. After another few days empty the water out and let the soil dry out. Repeat this treatment for a few weeks or until the water no longer smells. The bacteria will have mineralized all the organics in the soil by now.

Now sprinkle a handful of the Potash and Dolomite on the very bottom of the tank. Not a lot of either is needed at all. In a separate container take some clay and mix it with water to emulsify it. Then take some of the emulsified clay and mix it with the mineralized soil (this adds iron). Now add about a 1" layer of soil to the tank and cover it with whatever gravel you like. That should give you a substrate rich enough to never worry about potassium or any micros. 

This is all to the best of my recollection. Perhaps one day my friend will create a more indepth article for us all. :wink: It's a bit of effort to make, but like you said it's worth it if it lasts and lasts.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Sounds like a good recipe. I know Sean is a big supporter of soil substrates too, and I have used them a long time ago with good results.

But I am not going to do that. I don't trust el cheapo topsoil with or without fertilizer. And a few weeks of treatment is quite some effort. Pouring in the clay out of a bag is much easier.

The jobes sticks (not a layer of them, just a couple strategically distributed) are on the bottom so that I don't pull them up. If I do happen to end up with plants that need to be pulled out and have a lot of roots I might just end up cutting them.

I use jobes right now in my tanks, and often end up pulling them out (roots seem to like them :wink: ) but never had algae problems because of them. Maybe they were already spent. I usually just push them back into the substrate.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

That's really similar to what Sean does, or did, with his soil recipe. He was adding Ironite to the clay, but we all pretty much have shied away from that after finding out about all the heavy metal contamination in Ironite. Don't know if anyone ever found a decent substitute. I substituted CSM+B on one try. The only problem I had with the clay is documented above.

I did a pair of 10g tanks with the following recipe-
6 Jobes sticks each on the bottom glass
on that, a half inch layer of peat and leonardite
on that, an inch of Profile
on that, a cap of quartz gravel

I have some pics of it somewhere. I'll try to remember to review them to confirm my memory on it. If I forgot anything or got it wrong, I'll edit this post. The only problem I had with it was in one tank where I capped the peat too sloppily, and got brown water for a good while. Interestingly, my soil and peat tanks had less algae problems than my non-soil tanks. Have no idea why, though.

Continuing on, last week I dug the substrate out of my 20 because I don't like the larger grain of the gravel and Flourite that sits on the top. I left the bottom part, which is soil, and dumped in a bag of Gray Coast calcite. This is basically Onyx sand, but cheaper!!! I did zero rinsing. I planted the tank after putting in about 4 inches of water, then drained the tank and refilled. There was initial clouding, but not very bad, and I was careful when filling. The next day it was crystal clear. I don't let the Seachem substrates bother me. After a short while, the fines are on the bottom anyway. Clay is the only clouding substrate that I haven't been able to master with technique.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Wasserpest said:


> Sounds like a good recipe. I know Sean is a big supporter of soil substrates too, and I have used them a long time ago with good results.
> 
> But I am not going to do that. I don't trust el cheapo topsoil with or without fertilizer. And a few weeks of treatment is quite some effort. Pouring in the clay out of a bag is much easier.


I'm lucky enough that I can dig dirt out of my yard and dump it in the tank. No muss, no fuss. I _do_ avoid the kitty and squirrel poo, though. We don't have a dog. :wink: 



> The jobes sticks (not a layer of them, just a couple strategically distributed) are on the bottom so that I don't pull them up. If I do happen to end up with plants that need to be pulled out and have a lot of roots I might just end up cutting them.
> 
> I use jobes right now in my tanks, and often end up pulling them out (roots seem to like them :wink: ) but never had algae problems because of them. Maybe they were already spent. I usually just push them back into the substrate.


That's my experience as well. They are pretty nasty looking when disinterred, but I don't leave them out for any time, and it's usually just before wc time anyway.


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

It's more than just "similar" to Sean's recipe , although I did forget one thing. He now adds chick grit to the soil to give it bulk and help it hold it's shape..i.e. not flatten out over time.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Details, details. It never registered in my mind you were in MD.

Well, that explains things. Sean posted some time back about the kind of soil that was good for this application. Imagine my surprise when I realized he was describing the kind of soil I have in my yard. It's a good thing it works well in aquaria because it doesn't do such a hot job growing grass.
:icon_roll


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Yeah, we have the same problem at our house. Our soil is chock full of clay. I don't even plan on adding any to my mixture when I try it out soon. I'd say your cloudy tank woes were due to an excess of the clay.


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## bavarian3 (Feb 22, 2005)

Dont buy play sand from home depot. it is messy, dirty, clouds water bad and is too fine damaging filters.


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## sarahbobarah (May 20, 2005)

think it depends on which home depot, as they get sand from their local area. I used play sand in some of my tanks, and it worked out fine. 

Re the Jobes sticks - I think they make new ones specifically for aquatic use, but it's like an arm and a leg compared to the palm ferts. I've not yet used the palm ferts but would be interested to know if they actually help.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Talonstorm said:


> OK, I will go out on a limb here and say that I will never use flourite again. There are several reasons why (this is entirely my own experience and opinion and feel free to disagree). First, it was horrible to rinse, it took literally hours and I finally gave up figuring I would never be able to rinse it to my satisfaction. The first 5 washes produced something the consistancy of thin clay.
> Tina



I washed my flourite a long while. I'm sure I lost some fines, but I have no clouding problem at all, so it can be done... I used a metal collander/strainer in a 5 gallon bucket with a garden hose. It took a long, long time. I also hate the color, fwiw. I like the black look of spendy eco. bob


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## chris Ryan (Jun 28, 2005)

*substrate*

hi, im about too set up a 240 litre tank im going to be using undersoil substrate heating,i have used dennerle deponit in the past but was not that impressed (it kept working its way too the top and just looked a bit of a mess) what do you guys think?? cheers,chris


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Think about what?

The substrate heater? Waste of money. Never used dennerle deponit.


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## chris Ryan (Jun 28, 2005)

about the best substrate too use?? :icon_bigg roud: thanks,chris


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

If money isn't an issue, I think Flourite and Eco-complete are pretty good substrates.


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## chris Ryan (Jun 28, 2005)

ok i take it this is a stand alone substrate?? i have only ever used the layered stuff which ahas a nasty habbit of mixxing up and looking shoddy  thanks,

chris


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Both are very good stand alone substrates, in my opinion, and you can't go wrong with either of them.


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## vwboy53 (Mar 31, 2005)

I am currently using a kitty litter substrate (1cm of about 1/4 Inch) then 2.5 cm (1 inch) fine regular gravel.

I have mixed thoughts about it. It is full of iron, as I was dosing my plants with iron enriched fertiliser, and got a long nasty persistent hair algae. 
However after contacting the manufacturer of the fertiliser, they suggested another fertiliser without iron (Aqua Sonic Basic Grow). 
After switching, I have not so much of a hair algae problem (not gone yet!).
The substrate is not a mushy but if I disturb it, I get a nice white cloud, but that goes very quick.
The only negatives I have is that I always have a skim coating at the top of the water, no matter what I do (not really that bad) and I have difficulty getting my ph below 7.5, my guess is that the kitty litter buffers quite a bit.

However, my plants are good, no problem with crypts, and my amazon sword is thriving (even after stopping all fertilising for a month!).


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## fishmasterno1_2 (Jun 1, 2005)

I would never use plain ol gravel. I use lava rock on the bottom. Then I add water to middle of lava. Next I add 1/2 ich of peat it should make a flat top on lava. Let it sit 8 hrs. Then add 3" of miracle grow potting soil. Spray it till it is soaked (no more bubbles). Let it stand 8hrs. Spray it again so it is waterlogged. Then add 2 inches of black sand. Spray sand so it is smooth and waterlogged. Then plant plants using chop stick. Spray sand again to seal soil UNDER sand. Fill tank VERY slowly as not to stir up bottom. 
This is what I do. It works if you want plants to grow like weeds. Then again I am not a big fan of fish in my tanks. I go for the plants. I also fert with miracle grow once a week 10% of the recommended amount. I have livebearers and snails in the tanks with no die-off. Plecos can also live+breed this way BUT they can eat plants so I got rid of them.
If you read this and say hmmmm Remember that what works for one may not work for everone. Feel free to try it if you wish. PM me if you have questions you want me to answer. Regards TOM


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## aquabillpers (Nov 28, 2003)

Tom.

How long have you had your MiracleGro tank set up? I tried that once, but the nutrients in MG caused big algae problems, one kind after another in a parade. The ph rose into the 9's and the hardness to 20 DH.

The plants grew well, but they were hard to see. <g>

I have two plain gravel tanks, in addition to my soil-based tanks. I maintain proper nutrient levels in both via dosing, and use no CO2. One has fish in it and is doing quite well after 6 weeks; the other doesn't and isn't.

Bill


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## fishmasterno1_2 (Jun 1, 2005)

I tear down my tanks every 6 months. I use spring water only in these tanks ph 7.0-7.2. I also do 75% water changes weekly for the first 3 weeks then none. I also add 1-2" of sand on top of the mg. This keeps foggyness down big time. I also load tank to the gills with strong plants to start. I have no idea of the ph right now. I always add fish to the tanks I set-up. tanks without fish just do not do good for some reason. I usually use cheap fish so I don't care if they die. (feeder guppys) I have used platys too if I want color.
Call me after 7pm if you want to talk to me 630-854-3179 TOM


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

BUMP for a great thread.....


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## kid creole (Dec 25, 2008)

londonloco said:


> BUMP for a great thread.....


Thanks. I was looking at the dates, but I read all of the posts. I was totally expecting to see some spam bot brought this up from the dredges--not so.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Wow, Sean's first thread!?!

Guess his opinion of soil over time has changed... since he's the one who developed the mineralized soil method we've all been talking about recently.


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## EdwardN (Nov 7, 2008)

*I would never use...*

any kind of soil; small grained sand; peat; commercial 'aquarium' mixes and any other costing in excess of $20 for a 50lbs bag....


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> Wow, Sean's first thread!?!
> 
> Guess his opinion of soil over time has changed... since he's the one who developed the mineralized soil method we've all been talking about recently.


I think over time, everyone's opinion's change

Quite a lot of folks have used soil for a long long time.
Others have suggested a number of ways to mineralize it, including ADA, Mr. Vladimir Simoes, Diana Walstad, Dorothy Reimer, Steve Pushak........

And like a great many things...........history repeats itself.
"Water column?
Sediment?
Either .......or?
Heat cables?

Rat News has the story at 11!"

I've never been anti soil, never found any real good reason not to use it, other than some folks make a mess of it, but that's a personal thing. Some muck up their sediments.

It's cheap.
It adds another location and source for nutrients.
So it's easy and adds more nutrients than chicken aquarist will typically ever add to their water column.

The trade offs are pretty good overall.

Adding this or that to a soil based tank is hardly anything that shows that adding them does anything really significant either. I use nothing but soil and sand and have excellent results. Mineralized, boiled, baked, water changed away(in tank mineralization-ADA), Dry start, etc.

You can oxidize the soil many ways, see above.
This removes the reduced labile carbon and and the NH4 rather quickly.
Perhaps these cause algal issues, they certainly are none too good for fish in the initial stages.

A few nice examples and different folks doing a method and posting their results is also very helpful. That promotes a method(again) and garners attention for awhile. Looking at what and why those results where good/not so good over time etc, is the real management question. 

Then the method does not fall to wayside, it's trade offs are much better understood and lasting. I played with the water column after wanting to understand more about nutrients, and algae.

I came back to sediments in the last 5-6 years or so.
After a class in wetland soils..................
As we learn more, we change.

So do attitudes and opinions. They can change faster than many things.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mrparker (Oct 23, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Adding this or that to a soil based tank is hardly anything that shows that adding them does anything really significant either. I use nothing but soil and sand and have excellent results. Mineralized, boiled, baked, water changed away(in tank mineralization-ADA), Dry start, etc.


How exactly do you go about baking 3" x 48" x 12" of sand? I recently setup a new 46 gallon with sand i got from the sand dunes. I believe it has great minerals and nutrients in it. I rinsed it and it was pretty clean already, not a lot of cloud. However i didnt get/ have the patience to boil/bake it. It just seemed like overwhelming amounts of sand. 

When i did my 10 gallon in 2004 with sand i kinda gathered by sifting dirt, then rinsed that forever, and then baked it in a pan on the grill (parents made me keep the mess outside) it took a while, but that was only like 2.5" for the bottom of a 10gallon. 

What is an easier or quicker way to get the boiling/baking task accomplished?

I am willing to drain the tank, remove the sand and sterilize it and put it back in. (should i mix it with larger gravel if i want to have a runner propagating foreground plant/grass?)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mrparker said:


> How exactly do you go about baking 3" x 48" x 12" of sand?
> 
> 
> > Large aluminum foil baking pans for turkeys etc........cost a few $.
> ...


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## mrparker (Oct 23, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> If it's already there.........I'd just leave it. Do a few water changes etc.
> The idea is to oxidize it, speed the process up, reduce labor or wait time.
> 
> If you cannot cook/bake it in doors, then a boil it outside for 10 minutes.
> You only cook the soil, not the sand also. So the volume is not that much.


All I have in there is about 3 inches of sand. No soil, is that bad? I just read that with sand it will stink or create gas bubbles or something? thats why i was worried and thinking that i need to take it out and bake it or kill off the bad stuff in it

I am currently adding more of the same sand to my tank ( like any minute now ) that i washed earlier today. Do you recommend that I bake the new stuff just to be safe? It is going to be used to build up a better scaping design

And do I need to cook it for a period of time? at a certain temp? or till it is dry? or what?



plantbrain said:


> The worm castings + sand works well and you do not need that much either.


I dont know what this is


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## Ariel301 (Sep 7, 2009)

> OK, I'll dissent.
> 
> I would not use any substrate that would cost me more that $5.00 unless there was a clear reason to do that


I'll dissent with you. I won't use the expensive store bought substrates. I'm a potting soil, kitty litter, and locally collected sand/small gravel kind of girl. It works fine for me, and I find the mess worth the savings. I paid about $10 for the substrate in my 55.


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## mrparker (Oct 23, 2009)

my friend and i just spend a bit of time each day over the last week sifting gravel. Using a plastic craft canvas from walmart to sift out the bigger gravel, and then a screen stapled to a 1' by 1' 2x4 square to sift out the finer stuff, and now we have quite consistently sized gravel substrate, that has the ease of planting of sand, but wont compact. It was fun. 

And it looks good, if you want to see a picture, i'll take one


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Some like this type of DIY project.
Some do not.

If it's a time/labor issue or you are LFS without such time luxury, or you are trying to set up a tank for someone else on the clock $$, then the trade off is terrible. Better off working for min wage somewhere for the time vs saving benefit.

Seriously.

If you have no job/work, have free time, little $ etc, then......well...........now with nothing better to do vs taking what little $ you have, it starts to look pretty good.

I've likely processed 10000X more soil for use for aquatic plants than anyone on this entire list or forum ever has/will. It's far from "fun"
7 good sized truck loads worth just over the last 3 years alone.

Given my dithers, I'd pick ADA AS.


Worm castings protocol:
http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...-casting-nutrient-enriched-sediments-how.html

Many very nice looking tanks appeared using this same method. No different in terms of results than ANY mineralized soil aquarium I've seen to date in the labor/dosing etc after either.

In other words, appears to be equal at the bare minimum.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

I'm a 52 year old woman, have a part time job, 2 kids still at home, 3 dogs, 2 cats. I also work with a rescue and foster puppy mill kids. Currently my foster is about to whelp a litter. I also am redoing my 120g and 75g. My household is beyond busy. I have a job, three of them in fact. And in my older age, I am blessed with enough $$ to have purchased substrate. I just finished mineralizing 120lbs of soil. It wasn't work at all. If you think mineralizing soil is work, come to my house, I'll show ya what work really is.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

londonloco said:


> I'm a 52 year old woman, have a part time job, 2 kids still at home, 3 dogs, 2 cats. I also work with a rescue and foster puppy mill kids. Currently my foster is about to whelp a litter. I also am redoing my 120g and 75g. My household is beyond busy. I have a job, three of them in fact. And in my older age, I am blessed with enough $$ to have purchased substrate. I just finished mineralizing 120lbs of soil. It wasn't work at all. If you think mineralizing soil is work, come to my house, I'll show ya what work really is.


So how long did it take you to do and how much did you spend?

You might not even bother with the mineralizing part.
Just leave it in the tank for 3-4 weeks and add fish later.
ADA does that same approach with their ADA AS.
It's loaded with NH4 and organic matter like well, soil.
ADA tanks seem to do well.

The point is there are many trade offs, that includes many, many different ways to skin a cattail. Some might not consider it work, other seem to. Many different perceptions coming into this from many different folks about effort/work/DIY etc. 

Glad you found it easy. Not everyone will share that view about it.
I've read plenty of folks who messed it up over the past decade+ I've been on line. They had nice how to instructions but for many reasons, they had issues. the worm castings worked pretty well, easy, faster than the MS method Sean suggested. 

I like wetland sediment, some go to garden center, some do it in the tank, some do it prior, then add it later, some like brand name stuff etc etc. Some think it's more work than you perhaps. Some just do not like DIY methods. 

I do not like two part substrates personally(sand cap + soil bottom).
Never have.

So I use ADA AS.

For research, I chose to use wetland sediments, which requires me going out an 1 hour drive to the delta, shoveling 30-50 x 5 gallon buckets worth, haul it up to the truck up a 40ft levy, then back, then screening and washing it through 1/8" screen, settling it, then allowing to dry to nice paste clay before using and capping with sand. Do this outside in the summer when it's 100F+ in Davis CA. You come home wet and muddy and what a wonderful smell of bog.

I'm just lazy and do not know what real work is I guess.

Regards, 
Tom Barr














Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

How long are we talking about baking sand/soil? I've found baking soil at 180F for 30 minutes in gardening but that was mainly to kill any bugs, microbes, etc.


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## mrparker (Oct 23, 2009)

i baked mine for 20 minutes at 400.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> Wow, Sean's first thread!?!
> 
> Guess his opinion of soil over time has changed... since he's the one who developed the mineralized soil method we've all been talking about recently.


My opinion of soil hasn't changed. I took my wetland soils class in 1988, started putting plants in pots with soil about then, nothing more adventurous than laterite in the substrate until after I finished grad school. When we moved to MD in 1991 I made the leap to a soil/clay sub-substrate using plain old gravel to cap it. I just didn't try to press the idea on people because I didn't want to be fixing their mistakes. This thread was intended to start a conversation, it did and I'm glad it did. When I posted this thread, the 'common suggestion' was to put peat under the gravel when setting up a planted tank. I was against that based on the idea that the amount of peat was not discussed until much later. I relaxed my opposition when the suggestion became a "dusting", not the inch(es) that some were having the misfortune of using.

I am amused by the changes in positions about soil that have happened since then.

Something came up in the forum for GWAPA about soil substrates. Someone said "more and more I'm starting to think that the substrate is the tank." That made me smile.


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## anastasisariel (Oct 4, 2009)

*Creek Pebbles*

I would never use creek pebbles again. You could never get something small with fine roots to ground and also, my shrimp used to swim in the spaces between it because it is so big and then they would die well below the substrate. I also lost an axolotl because he swallowed a creek pebble and it lodged in his intestine. Must have been a painful way to die!


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