# HC-appropriate inert substrate?



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

I have inert black sand and my HC seems to love it.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm leaving the white and light brown gravel in the rest of the tank, so black sand might not look very good. I'm not sure about the sand-gravel interface either.


----------



## daverock1337 (Jan 17, 2011)

you could make something to seperate the gravel from the sand, and use pool filter sand. it has a lighter color to it.


----------



## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Pool filter sand. By the way, pressurized CO2 will go a long way toward making HC work.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

kevmo911 said:


> Pool filter sand. By the way, pressurized CO2 will go a long way toward making HC work.


Not far enough.  The mystery snails and amanos didn't help things either.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

you really need high co2 levels for HC. I have amano and snails and they don't uproot the HC at all.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

daverock1337 said:


> you could make something to seperate the gravel from the sand, and use pool filter sand. it has a lighter color to it.


 It's a fairly irregular area defined by driftwood and rocks so sand sounds like quite an undertaking. I'll consider it but am hoping to find something a little less intensive. I was hoping to find something like fine gravel, maybe the size of large couscous.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Rockhoe14er said:


> you really need high co2 levels for HC. I have amano and snails and they don't uproot the HC at all.


I was running it at around 30ppm although it took forever to get there. I assumed it was the snails and shrimp uprooting a plug overnight but it never really rooted anywhere although my moss and süßwassertang manage it. I went away for several days and every single plug uprooted and melted in the filter.


----------



## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

From my experience, HC needs good light and good circulation, if you have none than the growth will be very slow.

Also c02 helps a ton especially on larger tanks.

i try growing mine on gravel and flourite but it seen impossible to carpet, so i switch to sand and never look back.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Would 1-2mm size gravel be small enough for HC? I'm looking at Caribsea's Peace River product.


----------



## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

Rainer said:


> Would 1-2mm size gravel be small enough for HC? I'm looking at Caribsea's Peace River product.


should be fine.. remember the smaller the sand grain the more space there is for the HC to root and the stem doesnt get stringey.

plus sand is so much easier to plant on than flourite, not that you cant grow a carpet on flourite its just hard as hell to plant.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Rockhoe14er said:


> you really need high co2 levels for HC. I have amano and snails and they don't uproot the HC at all.


You don't need co2 for HC, it's an easy plant to grow IMO. Here is a no CO2 tank I did- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...bum/103106-10-gallon-low-tech-rock-scape.html


I find HC does best in sandy substrates. It doesn't seem to root as well in gravel and is much easier to pull up. It grows fine is harder to trim.


----------



## Jburke (May 9, 2011)

What kind of sand did you use I'm thinking about using silica sand and is 36 watts of light for 29 gallon tank sound good enough?


----------



## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

talontsiawd said:


> You don't need co2 for HC, it's an easy plant to grow IMO. Here is a no CO2 tank I did- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...bum/103106-10-gallon-low-tech-rock-scape.html
> 
> 
> I find HC does best in sandy substrates. It doesn't seem to root as well in gravel and is much easier to pull up. It grows fine is harder to trim.


any tricks on how you did that? did you use a DSM?


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Jburke said:


> What kind of sand did you use I'm thinking about using silica sand and is 36 watts of light for 29 gallon tank sound good enough?


If that's a 2x18w T5NO light, I highly doubt it. That's what I was running when my attempt failed, EI and CO2 notwithstanding. I can't be sure because of the substrate issue, of course, but the light levels are so low that even if it roots, it's probably going to be very leggy.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

again i got my HC to grow into a carpet in a 29 gallon tank with a single t5HO 10,000 k 24 watt bulb. The big thing for me was cranking up the co2 then it grew really well. I do run my drop checker yellow fyi. But i have lots of surface agitation so my shrimp don't mind.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Rockhoe14er said:


> again i got my HC to grow into a carpet in a 29 gallon tank with a single t5HO 10,000 k 24 watt bulb.


 A T5HO is somewhat more powerful than 2x T5NO using Hoppy's chart. The reflector on that particular NO, if it's the one I think it is, is very poor and really lowers the PAR values even more. If you have a halfway decent reflector on your T5HO, it's apples and oranges.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

The problem with Hoppy's chart is that he had AMAZING reflectors on his T5HO lights. This graph is very different from what my actual par was. Acorrding to Hoppys chart i should have been in the 50-60 par range when in fact i was in the 30 par range directly under the light and lower than that away from the center. My HC carpet was grown under 20- 30 par


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

That's remarkably low all right. It's still around 50% higher on average than the 15 micromols Dave measured on that NO fixture test a couple of months ago.

I don't know where the cutoff for sufficient light to grow - not just subsist - HC is but I wouldn't want to bet $20 worth of HC on that fixture again, even with proper substrate. At best I'd expect it to be leggy.

YMMV.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

Really what helped mine out a lot was really cranking up the co2 with my inline atomizer Once i did this the plant started doing a lot better and grew more outwards instead of upwards. It's still good practice even if your HC is growing upwards to trim it down and if you can replant the top. Eventually it will carpet but it'll take patients and time. 

Right now i have a different problem with HC growing too thick and the lower levels melting because of not getting enough light because you really have to give your carpet a trimming once every two weeks and i waited too long.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

How high did you crank it? Above 30 ppm the inhabitants in my tank become stressed, especially the shrimp.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

Rainer said:


> How high did you crank it? Above 30 ppm the inhabitants in my tank become stressed, especially the shrimp.


not true at all. The way you can run your co2 higher without stressing inhabitants is to have lots of surface agitation to replenish the oxygen in the tank. You will lose some co2 but that's the beauty of a pressurized co2 system crank it up a bit more. When you keep the o2 levels in your tank higher the inhabitants won't get stressed from higher levels of co2. I have shrimps in my tank and their fine (they might not breed as fast as someone that doesn't use co2 at all but they seem pretty happy. 

many people do this to put more co2 into their water without having to worry about the safety of your inhabitants.

If i had no surface agitation and had my co2 cranked up to around 50 to 70 ppm then i agree that i would probably kill all my shrimp.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Trust me, when the fish start huddling just beneath the surface in the far corner of the tank, they're stressed. When they start gulping air, they're really stressed.

All this a little above 30 ppm and with surface ripples from the HOB.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

Well none of my shrimp do this at all they are happy grazers and it's been this way for about 5 months with no deaths..... sooo

I'm not the only one that runs co2 higher than 30 ppm. I find this is a good read http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...ters/134953-nutrients-co2-vs-fish-health.html


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Interesting link, thanks. That hasn't been my experience at all.

I'm switching out my diffuser for an Atomic soon so I'll document the process and see where that goes. I may go with a more orthodox DC too. The current one uses 1 dKH and 2 dKH solutions.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

Rainer said:


> Interesting link, thanks. That hasn't been my experience at all.
> 
> I'm switching out my diffuser for an Atomic soon so I'll document the process and see where that goes. I may go with a more orthodox DC too. The current one uses 1 dKH and 2 dKH solutions.


is that the one that hoppy came up with a while ago? 

Yeah i run my 4 dkh yellow I have two and both are nice and yellow thought the whole light cycle.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Rockhoe14er said:


> is that the one that hoppy came up with a while ago?


 Yup, with homemade solutions, so room for error.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

orchidman said:


> any tricks on how you did that? did you use a DSM?


No tricks, no DSM. Just a good light balance, enough to grow plants, not too much to grow algae. I did trim to speed up the process, which will encourage it to spread but I didn't make a huge effort to do it consistantly. Just time and patience, if this tank had co2, it would have grown in probably 3x as fast. It still was interesting and fun to see it grow in.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Rainer said:


> If that's a 2x18w T5NO light, I highly doubt it. That's what I was running when my attempt failed, EI and CO2 notwithstanding. I can't be sure because of the substrate issue, of course, but the light levels are so low that even if it roots, it's probably going to be very leggy.


I agree and disagree. It will probably grow really slowly and very leggy, no spreading, but it will still probably grow. If you trim it, you will get more to plant, and that will also cause it to spread. I wouldn't want to try it but I would bet you could get a carpet over time, but it would take a lot of work, as well as a lot of maintenance.


----------



## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

talontsiawd said:


> No tricks, no DSM. Just a good light balance, enough to grow plants, not too much to grow algae. I did trim to speed up the process, which will encourage it to spread but I didn't make a huge effort to do it consistantly. Just time and patience, if this tank had co2, it would have grown in probably 3x as fast. It still was interesting and fun to see it grow in.


What light an how far away did you have it from the substrate? 


You can call me Bob 

"have no fear, help is here!"


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

orchidman said:


> What light an how far away did you have it from the substrate?
> 
> 
> You can call me Bob
> ...


I don't know how high a 10 gallon is but about 3-5 inches above that, I slowly lowered it as things grew in.


----------



## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

nice! what light do you have?


----------



## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

HC likes a substrate that is rich in co2....

seriously, the substrate doesn't matter that much, HC loves co2.


----------



## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

xmas_one said:


> HC likes a substrate that is rich in co2....
> 
> seriously, the substrate doesn't matter that much, HC loves co2.


bingo. +1


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

orchidman said:


> nice! what light do you have?


I made it but it was 23 watt CFL's x2. It had no reflectors though so I doubt it was a whole bunch of light. I didn't even have foil or paint in the housing, it was just black.


----------



## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Attempt #2 failed. 

Installed 1-2mm substrate and had CO2 running to light green in the target area; planted 10-15mm plugs held down diagonally by toothpicks. After a few days the HC began floating away and disentangling. I then planted the individual stems horizontally. None survived.

Lighting was 2-4-2 hours of medium-high-medium and dosing was standard EI. Snail activity was markedly less this time.

Unless I can figure out why this failed, there won't be a third attempt.


----------

