# Kuhli loaches are getting skinny-



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Two of them. One has been thin for a very long time- I always thought he was just weaker or bullied away from food, none of the other fish had the same illness and I have dosed the tank in the past for parasites... 

But lately he is getting very emaciated and now another kuhli is becoming skinny. It has a white spot on each side of the head, which doesn't look like ich but like a part of the bone structure showing?? I want to pull these two out and put them in QT so if I can get rid of the disease I can fatten them up. I am going to set up QT tonight and hope to trap them in the morning when everyone's super hungry (today they all fasted).

I have in my cabinet these things which I think may help? I haven't seen any weird poo so not sure what kind of parasite they have (or is it something else) 

API General Cure (Metronidazole, Praziquantel)
Prazi Pro (Praziquantel)
Potassium Permanganate (powder)
Kanaplex
garlic
aquarium salt

My inclination is to treat first with General Cure and then try Prazi Pro, and feed with garlic throughout. 

Can anyone tell me if that's a good plan? I know loaches are more sensitive than other fish, should I use half the recommended dose?

I have never used the potassium permanganate, I'm a little nervous to try it- if who's done it can give me some advice, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

No point in using PP here, its better as disinfectant and for cautherising small scrapes. I would treat metro for 3 days at half strenght, then dose levamisol at half strenght (because of the scaleless fish). Metro gets stuff levamisol does not, and the other way is true too. Then at least you will know you killed all worms, nematodes and flagellates.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks. I'm going to start with the Metronidazole tomorrow. I don't know if I can get levamisol here- might have to ask my vet.

I found Subquaria and ordered some Levasimol. 

I have the QT tank set up with plastic plants and pvc pipe for shelter, some sacrificial floaters- watersprite- and a few stunted rotala I was going to thin out of the tank anyway. Still had some old filter media pieces in the main tank HOB from long ago, so I took a small piece out and folded it into the bottom of the QT sponge filter to provide the biofilter.

Now tomorrow the hard part will be catching the fish. I put a new cap on my fish trap with a hole I think is just big enough for a kuhli loach to get in- and hopefully keep out the cherry barbs. I'd rather not have to keep the barbs in a bucket while I wait for the last kuhli to go in the trap- the one looking sickest is always the slowest to approach any area for food nowadays...


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

What are you feeding?
I like kens earthworm sticks
Also be careful with meds because they don't have scales.


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## Olskule (Jan 28, 2010)

amcoffeegirl said:


> What are you feeding?
> I like kens earthworm sticks...


:-O Amcoffeegirl! You aren't supposed to eat those, they're just for FISH!!!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

They get shrimp pellets, spirulina wafer, cooked peas, and omega one flake- I forget the exact variety. I never heard of earthworm sticks! (I do give my barbs baby red wigglers on occasion- but the kuhlis never got to any, the barbs are quicker at locating food.)

I'm using half the prescribed dose for the meds. A bit nervous about the levisamol because it says right on the site I bought it, not safe with scaleless fish. Are kuhlis actually scaleless? or just very small scales?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

They should be ok at half dose, I've used it even with fry (of other species).
If you know how much water you have in the tank, I can work out the dose for you if it is levamisol HCl instead of just levamisol. (it needs a bit more because of the weight of the HCl atoms).


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thank you! Yes, the one I ordered is levasimol HCI. I would appreciate that. 

New question: would it be terribly stressful for 6 kuhlis to be in a 5 gal quarantine for up to 3 weeks?? I've caught the skinny black one, and the other three black ones are in a bucket w/some plant cover while I wait for the 2 striped guys to go in the trap (they are very timid). Black ones in bucket are looking stressed now- one is turning pale. I'm wondering if I should just treat _all_ the kuhlis- get these guys out of the bucket into the QT (it's a plastic tub).

But my QT only holds 8 gal. Right now I have 5 gal in there- easier to measure dose since everything goes by 10gal. I can probably figure that out though, if it's better to have an extra three gallons for another three tiny fish... Not sure what's best to do here.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You can use a big plastic container from home depot for something bigger than a 5 or 10 G tank.
I was going to say Praziquantel should be fine if you can't find levamisole but since you ordered it, great.
Prazi is usually good for tapeworms and flukes while levamisole is good for nematodes.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, I have been needing a better QT anyway and found the $/gallon sale today, so I got a new tenner. Got all the kuhlis in there but one- the skinniest one who needs the treatment most. I think he is nervous being the only kuhli left in the big tank- hiding. I baited the fish trap again with garlic-soaked bloodworms (what they go most crazy for) but so far he is not coming in. Waiting... 

Don't want to start treatment w/out him in the QT. I don't want to chase him thru the tank ruining plants and give him a fright, either. Any tips for catching a small, nervous fish?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I remember how hard they are to catch.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I have re-baited the trap twice now. Last night with micro betta pellet. Baby trumpet snails got in the trap overnight and ate that along with the bloodworm. I put a bit of green pea in there this morning. Cherry barbs are feeling tortured- one scraped some scales off her side, she tried so hard to get in there. I have not seen the last kuhli (his name is Snaky Fish) since yesterday afternoon. I'm getting frustrated waiting for him to go in the trap. All this setup is pointless if I can't treat _him_.

At least all the other kuhlis look content in the QT. The other striped one- Albert- who looked shocked yesterday is getting his color back and came out of hiding to eat pea with the others this morning.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Try to keep them feeding well when you get them on the levamisol. It is a muscle relaxant for the worms, when the fish eat well, they will excrete the paralized worms, do a good gravel vac the day after and change 70% or more of the water. Keep the tank dark while medicating, the meds are broken down quite fast by light. When you are all done, you can mop up the last meds with some activated carbon in your filter.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You're going to have to tear your tank apart looking for the last khuli. If he's sick he's not going to eat or dead.

You should treat the whole tank actually. Assume there are parasites in the main tank as well.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

With worms this is good advice, I had no issues with levamisol with my plants or snails.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> You're going to have to tear your tank apart looking for the last khuli. If he's sick he's not going to eat or dead.
> 
> You should treat the whole tank actually. Assume there are parasites in the main tank as well.


Ok, thanks guys. I was afraid I'd have tons of dead MTS rotting in my substrate if I used it on the main tank. It says on the site I got levasimol from- "Not safe for Neon/Cardinal Tetras, Scaleless Fishes nor Snails" Are you saying all my snails will be ok if I use half dose?? Just want to be sure.

It will sure be more effective to put the loaches back in the main tank and treat there- just cost me more meds.... at least now I know I can exclude barbs from the fish trap and target-feed my kuhlis in it- except of course the thinnest one never has gone in it yet so I don't know what good it would do him.

I see him creeping around in the background, under plants. He's still alive.



Nordic said:


> Try to keep them feeding well when you get them on the levamisol. It is a muscle relaxant for the worms, when the fish eat well, they will excrete the paralized worms, do a good gravel vac the day after and change 70% or more of the water. Keep the tank dark while medicating, the meds are broken down quite fast by light. When you are all done, you can mop up the last meds with some activated carbon in your filter.


When you say keep the tank dark- should I cover it w/black plastic or towels? Or is just turning off the tank light sufficient? Does this apply to the Metronidazole too or just Levasimol. Thanks.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Not sure if it applies to metro as well, but it does for levamisol.
I always cover the tanks with a blanket when I dose it.
keeping the light off may be enough if you don't get direct sunlight on the tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, the tank is flanked by two windows. The back is covered but the sides get a bit of ambient light. I'll probably just block those off as well and keep the front uncovered so I can keep an eye on the fishes.

Change of plan, then: I'm going to move the fish trap to the QT to collect all the other kuhlis again, put them back in the main and treat there. Gah, wish I hadn't wasted my time w/it! I'm not exactly sure they have worms, but something is making them waste away.... 

At least now I have a proper QT setup much better than my old plastic bins - couldn't ever see the fish well thru the sides and they weren't big enough... 

Thanks for the inputs. It's good to have a few people talking sense when I'm scratching my head and fearing for the little fishes.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Crap*

I got all the kuhlis safely back into the main tank, and just put the first dose of Metronidazole in (cherry barbs tried to eat the granules before they dissolved). Then afterwards thought to look at the package- it has expiration date 02/16, five months ago. 

Is it old enough to be ineffective? If I buy more, should I do a water change and/or add carbon to remove what I already dosed, before re-dosing with new meds?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

The expiration date should be fine. At least it's not years out of date.


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## SpaceLord (Feb 29, 2016)

You should get a good UV sterilizer yo. I think a minimum of 9 watts and slow moving water. 

However I don't know if they are good to use at the same time as the medication. Just in general, you should have a UV sterilizer.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hm. That's a piece of equipment I had never really planned on. Will consider it, thanks.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

It has its pros and cons, as has everything I guess.
I'd love to have a few UV units, but I don't want to sell fish with diminished immune systems.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Second dose of Metronidazole in.*

Good news is my skinniest kuhli- Snaky Fish- is more active than I've seen in a long time. He came right to the food spot today, not lagging behind and creeping along. Maybe he's feeling better already!

Bad news is I put in the second dose 2 hours late. How crucial is it for the medicine to go in at the same time each day? Should I do a second round after the partial wc on saturday.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Precise hours are not crucial. Which drug are you dosing at the moment?
Just follow the instruction on metro package. They tell you when to do a water change I think.

Good to hear the little guy is doing better.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Using API General Cure. It's what I had on hand.
Levasimol is coming in the mail.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Finshed first round of meds. I did the water change, siphoning the gravel and put carbon in the filter. Waiting for the other medication to come in the mail, I expect it on monday. I fed the kuhli loaches zucchini. Managed to get a few pictures of the sick ones. Here's healthy black kuhlis on the right, the one that's getting skinny on the left:








My relatively-healthy striped kuhli on the left (he was looking a _bit_ thin earlier last week but seems to be putting his weight back on)








Last of all here is the really skinny kuhli on the left. Poor guy, it hurts me to look at him. But he's no longer limping along, he isn't hiding as much, came out for the food sooner than I expected, and was doing that little kuhli wiggle-hop-and-glide across the substrate. I even saw him climbing in a plant. Hadn't seen him do those kind of behaviors in a time.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

That's good news. It sounds like any new fish we all buy we all should quarantine and give a round of General Cure to get rid of parasites.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Remember to follow it up with that levamisol when it comes in. Many people make the fatal mistake of stopping at this point and the worms and nematodes that may have been co-inhabiting with the things the metro took out, will have a field day. Levamisol is also an immune booster, so if fish can handle it, it is worth doing anyway. I really need to order me a few khulis again, they are so cute. I'm like the regular brown and orange striped ones.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Got the Levamisole HCI powder*

Now I just have a few questions about using it. Please bear with me. I want to be sure I do it right.

It comes w/a little measuring spoon (inside the packet w/the powder- should I be using gloves when I handle this stuff?) The instructions say (I paraphrased a bit)

• 10 Gallons Of Water = 0.6 Grams or 3 1/2 spoons
• 15 Gallons Of Water = 1.0 Grams or 7 spoons
• 20 Gallons Of Water = 1.3 Grams or 7 1/4 spoons
• 25 Gallons Of Water = 1.6 Grams or 7 1/2 spoons
• 29 Gallons Of Water = 1.9 Grams or 13 3/4 spoons
• 30 Gallons Of Water = 2.0 Grams or 14 spoons
• 40 Gallons Of Water = 2.6 Grams or 14 1/2 spoons etc

1. Feed the fishes as normal
2. Remove active carbon
3. Do a 50% water change
4. Add Levamisole and keep lights off 24 hours
5. After 24 hours, 75% water change
6. Repeat in 3 weeks

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My tank is 38 gal. I guesstimate subtracting for the decor it's actually 35 gal of water. I'm doing half dose because of sensitive fishes, so that would be for 17 gal or should I make it easy on myself and dose for 20 gal? that's half of 40 and a lot easier to measure out than for 17.

Here's my take on the procedure: I'm going to turn off the light strip and cover the sides of the tank to block ambient light, and pull the carbon (which was in there to take out the prior meds). 

I just did my regular 50% wc on friday. Do I really need to do another one right before dosing? Also I'm concerned about the effect on the plants, I only dose ferts once a week, and my tank has just recently got to a state of healthy plants so I don't want to screw that up. So should I

- do the wc and meds now, re-dose half the ferts after the second wc which will be on Tue.

- or wait a few days and do the meds on Thur so that the big wc is on Fri when I usually do maint and ferts anyway.

I have never done more than 50% wc on my tank. Is there any caution I should take when doing the 75% one, to make sure it is not too much shock on my fishes? Will I need to put carbon in the filter afterwards, or is the big wc sufficient to remove the levamisole from the tank. If I do put carbon in to take the meds out, how long do I leave it in there for.

Thanks for any help. My worrisome kuhli still looks really skinny but for the first time I'd say his activity level is normal. When I fed peas this morning he was up front looking for his share.

Bump:


Nordic said:


> I really need to order me a few khulis again, they are so cute. I'm like the regular brown and orange striped ones.


They really are my favorite fish right now- their antics can be so fun to watch. This poor skinny one actually used to have orange/yellow coloring- here's some pictures from a year ago (he's the one on the left in each pic). I hadn't realize his color had washed out as well, recently. I guess another symptom of not feeling well.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I just need to check first, do you have neat levamisol or levamisol HCl?
Wait I see they gave dosages, I'd go with the 20 gal option.
I guess with the fish looking better you could hold on until Thursday.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

99% Pure Levamisole HCI

Bump: Ok, thanks.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It's a pretty safe drug. No risks from overdosing except from killing of invertebrates.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Thanks for the feedbacks. So I'm going to dose for 20gal, and do it on Thur for the big wc Fri. 

What about putting carbon in the filter afterwards? is that neccessary?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

OK so you have 135L of water roughly
So (135x2)/1000=0.27
Then 0.27/204.32=0.001321456
Now 0.001321456*240.78= 0.318g Levamisol HCL

They are indicating a very high possibly stressfull dose.
The standard dose is about a 3rd of a gram HCL for your water volume.
I would just go with the full dose of 318mg and observe the fish, you can always dilute it some with a mini water change if you see the fish are being stressed.

No need for gloves, its not poison, millions of people snort it up their noses with cheap cocaine. :/


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Sorry, math is not my strong point-
Are you saying that the recommended 2.6 grams would be too strong/stressful? but I am planning on dosing half that, 1.3 grams- is that still going to be hard on the fish.

I have no way of measuring grams, much less mg. I have an electric kitchen scale that can give me tenths of an oz, or I can guesstimate using this little measuring spoon that came w/the meds- which is tricky enough to eyeball 1/4th of that to dose it by 20 gal that's why I hoped it would be ok to do it that way instead of trying to get it exact at the dose for 17 gal... ??


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Carbon isn't necessary. It'll breakup within hours and from light.

You'd want a target of 2-7ppm of levamisol. Sorry not math for that 

~90mg of Levamisole HCl will treat 10 gallons with a 2 ppm concentration.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> Carbon isn't necessary. It'll breakup within hours and from light.


Yes- Of course- that's why supposed to cover the tank and keep it dark while dosing. Thanks for reminding me of that!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

As for measuring

you know that 
0.6 Grams or 3 1/2 spoons

so .3 g would be 1.75 spoons


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

My dosage was calculated using the standard dose of 2mg per liter of pure Levamisol.
Molecular weight of the HCL molecule is a little bit more, i.e. the math bits...

If you were dosing pure levamisol you would simply take 135l x 0.002 = 270mg

Invest in a digital measuring spoon, should be able to pick one up at the pet shop or e-bay.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Nordic said:


> Invest in a digital measuring spoon, should be able to pick one up at the pet shop or e-bay.


I didn't know there was such a thing! Will have to look for one. Thx.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> No risks from overdosing except from killing of invertebrates.


That would be really bad. I have probably hundreds of malaysian trumpet snails in the substrate- don't want them to die en masse and pollute the tank!!


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

MY MTS were fine at the dose I indicated.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

JJ09 said:


> That would be really bad. I have probably hundreds of malaysian trumpet snails in the substrate- don't want them to die en masse and pollute the tank!!


Only with extreme overdosing like 5-10x the recommended concentration.


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## Cmeister (Jul 5, 2009)

Do Your khuli's burrow? I thought khuli's burrowed in sand, my tank is a fine soft sand but they never ever burrow.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Mine never did but they would find their way under under-gravel filters. And behind any decor not sealed to the glass. I think they really appreciate a few leaves on the ground. It makes a tank look nicer too.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

A little bit- to hide under rocks and wood, or to go after food they smell. I think they'd burrow more if I had sand.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

From what I remember, The khuli fry will burrow for safety only because they're small enough to fit between the grains of sand.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

I have seen some in the pet store tanks that dug completely under the gravel. I didn't think there were any kuhlis in that tank until the store employee displaced gravel with a fish net and flushed some out. I guess they were highly motivated by fear and stress to make such an effort to stay out of sight.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Just dosed the tank with Levamisole. Turned off the light strip and draped the sides to keep it dark. I did some of my regular tank maint today- trimming plants and rinsed prefilter sponge- so that tomorrow when I have extra work to do the bigger wc can just focus on that. Will dose plant ferts tomorrow.

I used a new fish trap/feeding station I made, yesterday (it has exit holes for the kuhli loaches). I was surprised how much those kuhlis ate- I gave them betta micropellets, soaked so they would sink. The black kuhlis ate three or four _apiece_- I could actually see the pellets going into their tummies. I looked back at old pics when I first got these fish and realized the black ones were thicker in the body back then. I wonder now if they have not quite been getting enough to eat all this time, because the barbs compete as bottom-feeders? or because they are also carrying parasites. Wish I'd done this treatment a lot sooner, now.

The striped kuhlis would not come to the feeding station, but while the barbs were focused on trying to get in, I was able to give them a few pellets under the log on other side of the tank. I saw the skinniest one eating, which is a big plus. This morning fed all the fishes as normal and he was out eating with the rest again too. Saw him climbing more in plants again yesterday.

And while all the fishes were swarming around the food trap, the smallest male cherry barb took advantage of the distraction to mate with a female. Usually he's really flirtatious but the bigger males drive him away. I thought this was really funny.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I told you the stuff is an immune booster, my fish always seem better off for it after dosing.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Yep- cherry barbs I noticed a while ago some have flat white areas on the body, a few on the head. I think now it is a fungus (but its not fuzzy?) so I was going to dose with antifungal but the white areas are a lot smaller now and on some fish gone altogether. 

Kuhlis continue to have increased appetite, although the smallest one still looks real skinny. I'm glad. I hope he gains weight soon.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

At least now you can cross internal parasites off the list as the origin of any lingering problems.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

*Second round of Levamisol in*

This past week was up and down. The sick loaches were all looking better until one of my older nerite snails died. The skinniest kuhli quit eating then, died two days later. But the other striped one, Albert, is looking good. One of the black ones is still underweight.

12 hours after putting in the levamisol today, I noticed my filter was suddenly overflowing on the spillway. I took out a mere 1/4 gallon of tankwater to rinse the filter sponge- there was very little mulm, but when I put it back together, runs fine again. Is it possible that dead algae (I cut back a bit on ferts this week) and/or dead parasites clogged my filter sponge? I can't think what else was making it back up.

I'm assuming that taking out 1/4 gallon of 35 gallons isn't going to reduce the concentration of the medicine much.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I wouldn't sweat it. Yes, filter foam can get clogged, but I don't think it is related to the meds.
I've learned to keep an eye on the flow from my hobs, They tend to gradually taper in flow before getting clogged. I run a big foam piece on the intake pipe now and a bunch of floss inside the filter. The floss hardly gets dirty as the filter is unable to suck in large particles. They all get stuck in the foam under water, so worst cast my flow just reduces. Little tip, make sure your hobs hang straight (might need a spacer). When they hang straight they spill back into the tank rather than over the back of he filter on the ground. Remember there could be any number of things wrong with the fish. But you have tackled the most contagious aspect of it.


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