# El Natural Need Some Clue



## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

My guess would be either lack of oxygen, high temperatures, or nitrite/ammonia spikes.

Did you attempt to cycle the tank at all before adding the fish?

What's the temp of the tank?


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

Since it is a planted tank, I didn't fully cycle the tank, I just setting up the aquascape and on the 3rd day I put the fish in. Actually I don't mind about the fish lost, I just worry that sumthing wrong happen on my tank and will kill the plants. The temperature is about 28 Celcius degree and I think it just fine.
How do I know if it is lack of oxygen or amonia spike?
And what should I do to handle potential problem? Add small HOB Filter? Run an air pump during night?
Thanx for Ur opinion esarkipato


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## krazyalways (Feb 25, 2006)

Have your water immediately tested for nitrIte/ammonia. If that water quality isn't the problem, it may have something to do with the lights reflecting on the water. Or is it in an area that they could be spooked? If so you may have to put some type of lid on it. If the fish are not gasping for air, it's probably not oxygen. But you could always add an airstone at night if you think its a problem.

Good luck


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

krazyalways , do you mean that they're jumping because of surprise at something?  Funny but it's rational I think. About adding the airstones at night, I'm affraid that it will drive the CO2 away, since I don't use any CO2 injection. If at night the CO2 is depleted will the plants lack of CO2 at their photo period?
How about adding HOB waterfall filter? Will it help? Will it drive too many of CO2 away?
I'm sorry for my newbie questions..:icon_redf


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I agree, have your water tested, however 
If you have the 1 liter bottle of excel the dosing on the label is wrong, a capful is 15 ml not 5 like is printed on the label.


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

Thanks lumpyfunk, I'm using 500ml Excel and for about 28G, I only use half capful. 
Is there any sign on plant if I have amonia spike? Somekind like melting or else?
Please some one give some answers for my previous questions, thanx so much.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

There is not really a plant sign of an ammonia spike, unfortunately it is often followed by algae.

You should be fine on the oxygen levels with that fish load and no added CO2, if you would feel better adding another filter or an air stone that wont hurt. It will help outgas co2 but this is only a problem if you are adding it, it will not outgas the carbon provided by excell.

you should be able to have a LFS test your water for you if you dont own the kits.

As for the fish I would check if something could have scared them or water quality for their jumping.

hope this helps


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

Ok, thanks a lot lumpyfunk, I will try to test the water quality or MAYBE i've done something basically stupid, since I forget to NOT dechlorinating my tap water!!!:icon_redf :icon_redf 
That will cause the fish jump while the plant will just fine, right??
I'm very curios before, because I try to do the El Natural method that ussualy using only power head or submersible filter like me to minimize surface turbulence, and I haven't read yet about lack of oxygen problem.
I add anti chlor now and will add a HOB Filter or run an air stone during night if the problem still there.
thanks.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

You really dont need to worry about surface agitation unless you are injecting co2 gas, in fact I intentionally increase the surface agitation in all my non co2 tanks.


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

On what purpose lumpyfunk?
If I'm not mistaken, in Natural aqua without CO2 injection, altough we use excel dosing, we should keep CO2 (from plant and fish respiration process) stay in the water as long as it can?


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## patchy (Dec 10, 2005)

since you going El natural i'm assuming there's no biological filter system other than plants and the HOB that you mentioned. As plants act as your filter, how much plant mass (not just several plants) do you have in there? The key to el natural tanks is to start with a large enough plant mass to soak up all ammonia produced from the fishies. By large plant mass i mean a densely planted tank which dosent need much "growing in time". As well as this the plants need good conditions to grow and thus soak up the ammonia.

In other words how much and many plants do you have? and are they growing well?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

patchy said:


> since you going El natural i'm assuming there's no biological filter system other than plants and the HOB that you mentioned. As plants act as your filter, how much plant mass (not just several plants) do you have in there? The key to el natural tanks is to start with a large enough plant mass to soak up all ammonia produced from the fishies. By large plant mass i mean a densely planted tank which dosent need much "growing in time". As well as this the plants need good conditions to grow and thus soak up the ammonia.
> 
> In other words how much and many plants do you have? and are they growing well?


in other words

provide a picture of your tank PLEASE

I would not worry about co2 getting out of the tank with surface aggitation. since you say your going El Natural way you shouldnt have HIGH light Co2 plants that need A LOT of co2 so i wouldnt worry about it. 

I personally usually try to wait a week or two before adding fish to let the tank stabelize. then i will add the algea eater fish/shrimp and later on the fish in the tank. I usually add some random snails into the tank to keep any algea/melted leaves at minimal amount.

welcome to the forum!

also, we have a few members from your own city on the forum :thumbsup: one that comes to mind is MedicineMan so i would try and contact him if you have problems explaining a question in english because i bet he can help you, also to find the right fish stores and stuff and he has some nice tanks! so he does something right...

good luck and have fun!

- fish newb -

oh! and BUY some test kits they are usually very important to the New guy but later on you use them Less and Less


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

Ok, this can get confusing so bear with me. There is a baseline value of co2 concentration in a body of water with a given surface area, over time the body of water will trend towards this baseline. When you inject CO2 you are WAY above this level and as the water trends towards the baseline you loose CO2 concentration. If you are Not adding CO2 then the plants use the available co2 in the water bringing you below the baseline. Anything that increases the surface area of a body of water accelerates this process, so if you are adding co2 it speeds the release of it from the water, what you dont want, but in non co2 tanks it helps replenish it.

Hopefully I made sense, this is of course my understanding, not written in stone.


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## qpun (Aug 31, 2006)

Hei, thanks lumpyfunk. I got what you mean, Inever read about this before but I think that quite make sense , thanks for your experience sharing..

Back to my tank, I think the problem is ammonia spike, I have done 2 x 50 % water change and add active carbon, I hope it stop the fish jump.
Yesterday I check the plants, everything doing well, even the crypt stop melting and start to grow new leaves. BUT., I have one weird case, some of the java fern leaves on the bogwood is turning grey, when I check it, its rooten on the base of the leave, near the rhizome. I wonder how could that happen? 
Ammonia? To much light exposed? Or just sick plant from the LFS? I looks health when I bought it.


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## kimo (Jul 15, 2006)

lumpyfunk said:


> Ok, this can get confusing so bear with me. There is a baseline value of co2 concentration in a body of water with a given surface area, over time the body of water will trend towards this baseline. When you inject CO2 you are WAY above this level and as the water trends towards the baseline you loose CO2 concentration. If you are Not adding CO2 then the plants use the available co2 in the water bringing you below the baseline. Anything that increases the surface area of a body of water accelerates this process, so if you are adding co2 it speeds the release of it from the water, what you dont want, but in non co2 tanks it helps replenish it.
> 
> Hopefully I made sense, this is of course my understanding, not written in stone.


Very good, simple explanation lumpyfunk.


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## joemomma (Oct 12, 2006)

Temps could be too high maybe?


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