# What is this Black Algae? So sick of it!



## dewalltheway

Alright....I manage my tanks pretty well and do water changes, EI dosing, Pressurized CO2, keep my filters cleaned, etc., etc.....but I can not stand this black algae crap anymore and need some help in getting rid of it. It does not come of easily when rubbed, has a rough texture and seems to develop on leaves that are slow growing or have been in the tank for awhile. If you have any thoughts, please share. I will even send someone samples if they want to try and figure out what it is so I can combat it. Here are pics..


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## esworp

put me on the list! I seem to follow all the rules, and get this junk often. SOMEONE HELP AHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!


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## DarkCobra

Looking closely at the hard spotty stuff, you'll see that some is green (GSA), and some is black (beginnings of BBA or black cyano), mixed together and sometimes overlapping.

Plus I just barely see some fuzz algae on the sides of some leaves. And there may be some GDA on the hardscape, or just really heavy GSA; you can tell the GDA apart if some is soft and will rub off.

Blends like this means there's plant health issues, and maybe insufficient turnover and conversion of organic wastes, due to something limiting plant growth. Could be insufficient light, low CO2, low nutrients, insufficient flow. Look at the algae distribution. Is it mostly at the bottom of the tank? Then check flow and light, which both have a more difficult time reaching the bottom.

If you can post or link tank parameters, we'll look them over.


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## dewalltheway

DarkCobra said:


> Looking closely at the hard spotty stuff, you'll see that some is green (GSA), and some is black (beginnings of BBA or black cyano), mixed together and sometimes overlapping.
> 
> Plus I just barely see some fuzz algae on the sides of some leaves. And there may be some GDA on the hardscape, or just really heavy GSA; you can tell the GDA apart if some is soft and will rub off.
> 
> Blends like this means there's plant health issues, and maybe insufficient turnover and conversion of organic wastes, due to something limiting plant growth. Could be insufficient light, low CO2, low nutrients, insufficient flow. Look at the algae distribution. Is it mostly at the bottom of the tank? Then check flow and light, which both have a more difficult time reaching the bottom.
> 
> If you can post or link tank parameters, we'll look them over.


The algae is worse on plants that are low growing. I had some low growing plants but they just got covered with the black algae. The driftwood I know blocks alot of light and that is why I have decided not to have any low growing plants right now. At one time when I didn't have the driftwood and had alot of stems, my tank flourished like this...









Maybe I need to get rid of the driftwood and go back to stems.

Tank : 90 gal Corner Bowfront

Lighting: Coralife Compact Flourescent (4) 65watt 6700K/10,000K bulbs + a Fishneedit T5 (4) bulb fixture (1 socket doesn't work so really only 3 bulbs). I just changed out these bulbs about 3 weeks ago because it had been over 2 years since I last changed them (No $)

Water: RO/DI water and was using Equilibrium at water changes but will begin using GLA Ultimate GH Booster. I was trying to do 50% water changes every week but just starting trying a new method to try and save money because money is tight.....I want to continue to do EI dosing but spreading it out over a 2 week period to where water changes are done every 2 weeks, so instead of dosing let's say 1/2tsp of Potassium Nitrate on Mon., Wed., & Fri. I will dose 1/4tsp on Mon., Wed., Fri., Sun., Tues., Thurs. and then WC on Sat.

Filtration: (2) Fluval 404's but in process of adding a Fluval 304 and possible another. It is very difficult to get the correct flow in a corner aquarium plus I am becoming more convinced everyday that good flow solves alot of problems.

CO2: Pressurized with one line going to a Rex style reactor and the other line going to a glass diffuser. 

Substrate: Eco-Complete

Dosing: Modified EI Method. Dosing CSM+B (1/8tsp, T,Th,S,M,W&F), Iron (1/16tsp T,Th,S,M,W&F, Potassium Nitrate (1/4tsp M,W,F,SU,T,TH), Potassium Sulfate (1/8tsp M,W,F,SU,T,TH), Mono-Potassium Sulfate (1/2tsp M,W,F,SU,T,TH)

Pic of tank so you can see where my returns are located


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## esworp

I experience this growth irrespective of light intensity - higher background plants experience it, as to low carpeting fellows. 


It's a 30 gallon-long tank.
EI fertilizing, dry.
1/4 tsp KNO3, 1/8 tsp K2SO4, and 1/16 tsp KH2PO4 Mon, Wed, Fri, 
1/16 tsp Che. Fe, 1/16th Traces Tues, Thurs, Sat 
70% water change on Sundays.
calibrated drop checker steady green - about 1 B/sec.
2x t5ho 39 watt at 5 inches off of the water line.
High flow throughout tank, i run two canisters in tandem.
100% laterite substrate.

I find myself in a constant struggle with GSA, with the occasional need to spot-kill (excel) BBA.

7 Skirt Tetras, 4 SAEs, 4(ish) nerites, Malaysian Trumpets.


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## mistergreen

It's the beginning of BBA (black beard)... I'm getting the same thing after I cleaned out my filter... The BBA spored in the filter got blown all over the tank and landed on everything. 
I hacked all affected plants. New growths aren't affected. You can kill it with spot treating excel. Next time I clean out my filter, I'll have to get all new media and bleach or H2O2 out the old.


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## esworp

Weird. it never gets to the Fuzzy Stage. just a sheet that eventually curls up the leaves.


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## mistergreen

I'm not sure about yours esworp but dewall's looks like what I have.
I think there are several stages of it. If you give it the right conditions, it'll grow the fuzz


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## dewalltheway

Mine doesn't reach the fussy stage either but is almost like a rough sandpaper feel. As I was looking at it close at lunch today though, I did notice maybe some tuffs of fuss on the very edges of the leaves but it just covers the leaves black and destroys them. The only thing I can do is cut off the bad leaves but I want to get rid of this so I don't have to. I bumped my CO2 up a little at lunch and I may start dosing a little excel everyday to see what happens. My fast growing plants are not affected by it except for the lower growing leaves that have been there. I am hoping that adding another filter (or 2) and also getting my UV sterilizer running again will help things as well.


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## dewalltheway

Would it be possible to soak the driftwood in a bleach bath and then powerwash it to remove any algae and then put it back in the tank or will it soak up to much bleach and leak it back into the tank?


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## esworp

dewalltheway said:


> Mine doesn't reach the fussy stage either but is almost like a rough sandpaper feel. As I was looking at it close at lunch today though, I did notice maybe some tuffs of fuss on the very edges of the leaves but it just covers the leaves black and destroys them. The only thing I can do is cut off the bad leaves but I want to get rid of this so I don't have to. I bumped my CO2 up a little at lunch and I may start dosing a little excel everyday to see what happens. My fast growing plants are not affected by it except for the lower growing leaves that have been there. I am hoping that adding another filter (or 2) and also getting my UV sterilizer running again will help things as well.



This.


I can have the leaves be completely covered for over a month, and it never presents the Beardliness. I note that this observation occurred prior to any species of BBA-eating varieties being introduced into my tank. At the same time, I'd experience other tufts of BBA in non-afflicted areas, such as near high-flow locales, or in other, unaffected plants. 


Stumped.


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## kribkeeper888

I used to have the same problem but then i introduced two SAEs and 10 ottos along with a stunted chianese algea eater and after a week or two they all had removed most of it


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## dewalltheway

kribkeeper888 said:


> I used to have the same problem but then i introduced two SAEs and 10 ottos along with a stunted chianese algea eater and after a week or two they all had removed most of it


I do have 1 LARGE SAE (did have 2 but lost one) about 4 Ottos and I used to have a chinese algae eater but lost him as well (he was pretty old).....so I maybe it is time to make a trip to the fish shop for more Ottos, another SAE and Chinese Algae eater.....and some more YoYo loaches!


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## farrenator

You can soak the driftwood in a diluted solution of bleach (10:1 water to bleach). When I have done that in the past I soaked it for about 24-48 hours. I then took a rough sponge to it to scrape off whatever was on the wood, rinsed the heck out of it and then let it air dry for a few (3 at least) days. I never had any ill effects when reintroducing the driftwood back in the tank.



dewalltheway said:


> Would it be possible to soak the driftwood in a bleach bath and then powerwash it to remove any algae and then put it back in the tank or will it soak up to much bleach and leak it back into the tank?


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## DarkCobra

dewalltheway said:


> Pic of tank so you can see where my returns are located


That whole "tent" construct in the middle definitely looks like it's blocking both light and flow.

Increasing flow alone _may_ be enough to correct it. You have plenty of filtration, so instead of adding more, you might just add directed flow via a powerhead.

I ordered a TruAqua CP-12 (Koralia clone) last night for testing the effect of flow on some lower regions in my tanks. Rated at 1,321GPH and 12W, it's cheaper and more energy efficient than additional filtration. Magnetically mounts through the glass, and has a ball-joint swivel, so it should be really easy to direct heavy flow anywhere. Something like this might be a useful option for your corner tank.


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## dewalltheway

DarkCobra said:


> That whole "tent" construct in the middle definitely looks like it's blocking both light and flow.
> 
> Increasing flow alone _may_ be enough to correct it. You have plenty of filtration, so instead of adding more, you might just add directed flow via a powerhead.
> 
> I ordered a TruAqua CP-12 (Koralia clone) last night for testing the effect of flow on some lower regions in my tanks. Rated at 1,321GPH and 12W, it's cheaper and more energy efficient than additional filtration. Magnetically mounts through the glass, and has a ball-joint swivel, so it should be really easy to direct heavy flow anywhere. Something like this might be a useful option for your corner tank.


I did forget to mention that I have a Koralia powerhead in the back corner faced up and directed to the front center for a little bit of ripple effect plus additional flow. The other 2 returns are directed to the front as well but on either side of the driftwood. I was trying to get my flow to go down the front glass and back to the back corner but flow is messed up with the front glass being curved.


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## esworp

I'm feeling doubtful about flow being at the root of the matter. I run an XP1 and a magnum 350 at he same time, at different zones of the water column.. The algae growth does not correlate to light intensity or flow exposure, in my situation.

not to say it won't work in other environments, though.


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## dewalltheway

I think another part of my problem is that the tank is 24" deep which really makes it hard to get the proper amount of light to the bottom of the tank. What I really want is a 125 gallon, rectangular tank that is 18" deep but money is the issue with that!


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## Vancat2

i have similar issues. want to keep an eye on this thread.


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## DarkCobra

dewalltheway said:


> I did forget to mention that I have a Koralia powerhead in the back corner faced up and directed to the front center for a little bit of ripple effect plus additional flow. The other 2 returns are directed to the front as well but on either side of the driftwood. I was trying to get my flow to go down the front glass and back to the back corner but flow is messed up with the front glass being curved.


Ok, good. If possible, you might get a more efficient flow pattern by mounting the Koralia on the side of the tank, low and towards the front, and directed sideways to create a cross-current.

Of course, it's also possible flow isn't the real issue here, and that light is. Or you don't have enough fast growing plants (like previously) to rapidly clean up organic wastes. Or that particular piece of driftwood isn't well aged, and is rotting and releasing organic wastes. It frequently comes down to experimentation and a process of elimination in this hobby.


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## Vancat2

hmmm i have mucho driftwood too


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## DarkCobra

esworp said:


> I'm feeling doubtful about flow being at the root of the matter. I run an XP1 and a magnum 350 at he same time, at different zones of the water column.. The algae growth does not correlate to light intensity or flow exposure, in my situation.


Curious about your lighting. What's the bulb to substrate distance, and photoperiod?

You also mentioned "sheets" of algae, which sounds potentially different than the OP's. Have any pics?


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## dewalltheway

DarkCobra said:


> It frequently comes down to experimentation and a process of elimination in this hobby.


So I have found! So...maybe I will start by removing the driftwood, soak it in 10:1 bleach solution, power wash it, and wait for awhile to see if things clear up. Then go from there.


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## darkoon

looks similar to what I had
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/135699-what-algae.html


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## dewalltheway

DarkCobra said:


> Curious about your lighting. What's the bulb to substrate distance, and photoperiod?


CF bulbs in front are ~30" (Had them closer at one point but was getting bad GSA so I raised them ~6" off the water but now have a hard time with any low growers. The T5's in the back are ~27".



DarkCobra said:


> You also mentioned "sheets" of algae, which sounds potentially different than the OP's. Have any pics?


Where did I mention this??? :confused1:


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## esworp

DarkCobra said:


> Curious about your lighting. What's the bulb to substrate distance, and photoperiod?
> 
> You also mentioned "sheets" of algae, which sounds potentially different than the OP's. Have any pics?


Sheets as in covers the leaves uniformly, not like BGA or anything. Trust me - it looks EXACTLY the same as the original poster's issues. His description of a rough texture is congruous with my problem, as well.


Bulb to substrate is 2o inches, with an 8 hr photoperiod.


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## esworp

Vancat2 said:


> hmmm i have mucho driftwood too



I had this problem without driftwood.. the piece you see in the photo was introduced about a month ago, no impact noted.


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## devlyyn

I have this exact same stuff on my dwarf sag. Not sure what it is.


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## esworp

I suspect this is a dual species colony, in which BBA sets up from spores, and is then covered over with GSA or a biofilm. 

also, I'm am not a scientist.


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## audioaficionado

I've got the same crap on my Anubias barteri 'Coffeefolia' & 'Nana'. Starts out as GSA and eventually the spots grow together and turn into a greenish black sheet with dark red color hints in it. It's too hard or unappetizing for my otos or SAEs. Nerites nibble on it when they aren't busy coating my driftwood and rocks with dead eggs.

I think I'll PM a TPT friend and send some samples for microscopic examination to find out what kind of colony I'm dealing with.

Doesn't seem to bother my Cryptocoryne much. The Anubias both put out new leaves almost weekly, but eventually they get GSA and over a few months get completely covered. The leaves don't curl or die so there must be enough light getting through to keep 'em alive.

I have a tall narrow 45H tank with T5 lighting 22" above gravel substrate (2x6hr with 10hr overlapped photo period), good enough water movement to gently sway most plants, pressurized CO2, EI ferts, pH 6.2, somewhat heavy fish bioload.

While the lights are on all the plants (including Anubias) pearl and put out lots of O2 bubble streams.


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## Riko

I'm having that black algae too. Please help me understand what kind of algae is and how to get rid of it.
Thanks


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## DarkCobra

esworp said:


> I suspect this is a dual species colony, in which BBA sets up from spores, and is then covered over with GSA or a biofilm.


I agree with your suspicion.

But really knowing exactly what's going on is quite difficult. To make a point, let me show all the different faces of what's typically referred to as BBA:










Easy, classic BBA. But what about this?










Clearly a dual colony including GSA, but since there's no fuzz, is the second species really BBA? Black cyano? Something else? Don't really know.










Still some GSA. But the black stuff is quite different than in the previous picture. Rather than 0.5-1mm spots, it's _extremely_ tiny; if you were to look very closely at it, you'd find each individual spot is almost as fine as smoke particles! And it shows no preference for leaf edges, either. Is it a different algae altogether? I've also heard people suggest it's deposits due to iron toxicity, or a viral plant infection.










Resembles BBA in color and only. Otherwise, it more closely resembles BGA. Forms sheets on leaf edges, with no visible particles, fuzz, or texture. At the edges where it's thinnest, it's somewhat see-through; and has just a hint of blue-green tint. This I suspect to be black cyano.


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## jcgd

I thought BBA was usually fixed by upping the co2. I only get it in my non co2 tanks.


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## esworp

jcgd said:


> I thought BBA was usually fixed by upping the co2. I only get it in my non co2 tanks.


I'll have to indicate otherwise. I run fairly high ppm co2, and experience this algae from time to time.


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## audioaficionado

I could throw erythromycin at it if it's black cyno.

Might also explain why my algae crew doesn't like it.


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## 150EH

audioaficionado said:


> I could throw erythromycin at it if it's black cyno.
> 
> Might also explain why my algae crew doesn't like it.


You can lose all you nitrifying bacteria doing that. Some of it looks like sediment from high TDS in the water, my tank get the same type of build up on rocks, plant, wood, & substrate. I'm going to buy an RO/DI unit to solve the problem, that's all you can do. Are all these tanks using well or city water with chloramine?


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## audioaficionado

Soft city water with chloramine.

On another thread, someone used erythromycin against cyno and didn't recycle his tank.


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## happi

audioaficionado said:


> Soft city water with chloramine.
> 
> On another thread, someone used erythromycin against cyno and didn't recycle his tank.



+1 

i have the same algae issue while using RO water and co2 is high as it can be.

i have heard people had good results using erythromycin


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## esworp

If we have some concerns about black cyano, which ive never heard of, does anyone have links to some literature related to this taxonomy that seems to have just sprung up?

Namely, its specific causes.. we seem to have a degree of consesus about water source, light intensity, and co2. However, im wondering what else we have in common. 

Sent from my HTC Vision using Tapatalk


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## sepehr

DarkCobra said:


> I agree with your suspicion.
> 
> But really knowing exactly what's going on is quite difficult. To make a point, let me show all the different faces of what's typically referred to as BBA:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Easy, classic BBA. But what about this?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly a dual colony including GSA, but since there's no fuzz, is the second species really BBA? Black cyano? Something else? Don't really know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Still some GSA. But the black stuff is quite different than in the previous picture. Rather than 0.5-1mm spots, it's _extremely_ tiny; if you were to look very closely at it, you'd find each individual spot is almost as fine as smoke particles! And it shows no preference for leaf edges, either. Is it a different algae altogether? I've also heard people suggest it's deposits due to iron toxicity, or a viral plant infection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Resembles BBA in color and only. Otherwise, it more closely resembles BGA. Forms sheets on leaf edges, with no visible particles, fuzz, or texture. At the edges where it's thinnest, it's somewhat see-through; and has just a hint of blue-green tint. This I suspect to be black cyano.


Mine looks the 2nd pic from the top. They look like random black stains on the older leaves of Echinodorus Quadricostatus which is a large sized carpeting plant. The new leaves are ok though. I had it on the moss too, giving it a dirty darker color so I tossed it out. 

Tank: 75 gallon
Ferts: EI 
Lights: 3 X 54 watts T5HO's 9.5 hrs a day
CO2: Pressurized drop checker green to lime green
No flow issues at all, I can see the plants gently moving with the flow
Substrate: Red Sea Flora Base 1.5 yrs old. Next week will add a fresh 2 inch layer.
Otos & shrimps dont touch the stuff
Again this algae? attacks the carpeting plants only
The only other algae issues in my tank is a minro green spot algae on glass which I clean every week with a 40% water change.

These things are nasty!


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## chad320

OP, dewalltheway, why are you EI dosing a bunch of slow growers? Seems like overkill to me, and likely a source of excessive nutrients for you algae. It looks like a GSA/GDAproblem to me. Have you added MgSo4 to your fert mix? This also seemed to make a difference for me as well. Just trying to toss out some ideas that helped me beat this stuff. I also rarely clean my filter. Hopefully by clean, you mean rinse and not steralize. Hope this helps bro


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## dewalltheway

DarkCobra said:


> I agree with your suspicion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Clearly a dual colony including GSA, but since there's no fuzz, is the second species really BBA? Black cyano? Something else? Don't really know.


Exactly what I am dealing with....The Algae from the Pit of hell!



150EH said:


> Are all these tanks using well or city water with chloramine?


I use strictly RO/DI water



chad320 said:


> OP, dewalltheway, why are you EI dosing a bunch of slow growers? Seems like overkill to me, and likely a source of excessive nutrients for you algae. It looks like a GSA/GDAproblem to me. Have you added MgSo4 to your fert mix? This also seemed to make a difference for me as well. Just trying to toss out some ideas that helped me beat this stuff. I also rarely clean my filter. Hopefully by clean, you mean rinse and not steralize. Hope this helps bro


I still dose because I have alot of stems of Pogostemon stellatus 'Broad Leaf' and some stems of Ludwigia sp. 'Rubin' and also my Blyxa Aubertii seems to do much better with dosing. I have cut back on how much I dose since I don't have a bunch of fast growing stems in there like I used to.
I do not dose MgSo4. I had been using Equilibrium when I would do my water changes but I am switching over and going to start using GLA Ultimate GH Booster mix. I may look into getting some MgSo4 and see what happens.
Thx for the helpful tips!


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## audioaficionado

Yep looks like the same junk in my tank. I'll send some out for micro-analysis before I resort to broad spectrum antibiotics.


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## esworp

I for one welcome our algeal overlords.


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## hopeforthebest

I sure hope you guys can come up with a way to get rid of this stuff.These picture looks just like my tank.I have even clipped infected leaves off ,then on the counter, scrub the leaves with a tooth brush. It will not scrub off, scrape off,and no fish will eat it. This black crud grows and will erode the leaves the edges of the leaves.It was there before adding driftwood to my tank.Please help! I am getting so frustrated with nasty looking plants.


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## mrchach

man i don't have this anymore but used to have it...

This is the be all end all worst algae i have encountered
i had it growing on a rock it mostly covered the rock in the spotty fashion you see in the picture when i removed the rock i couldn't rub that stuff off, only scrape! i think it comes from space....


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## esworp

sooo... did the lab report say anything? :]


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## Bannik

I think dark cobra nailed the issue in his first post. You have something limiting the growth, most likely a nutrient or CO2 deficiency. Increasing the CO2 and flow might fix it. However I'm thinking the most likely cause is insufficient amounts of one of the macro ferts like potassium or phosphate.

The easiest fix is to continue your dosing regimen with 50% water changes every week. Pinch off any leaves already affected by the BBA so your plants can focus on healthy new growth and reduce your photo period by 2-3 hours. Wait a month and if the BBA comes back you know it is a CO2/flow issue. If it doesn't come back increase your photo period to what it was and try increasing the dosage of each of the macros until you find out which you weren't dosing enough of.


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## esworp

Urg. CO2 is not at issue in my tank, nor is flow. I dose EI and do greater-than-50% water changes. 





Bannik said:


> I think dark cobra nailed the issue in his first post. You have something limiting the growth, most likely a nutrient or CO2 deficiency. Increasing the CO2 and flow might fix it. However I'm thinking the most likely cause is insufficient amounts of one of the macro ferts like potassium or phosphate.
> 
> The easiest fix is to continue your dosing regimen with 50% water changes every week. Pinch off any leaves already affected by the BBA so your plants can focus on healthy new growth and reduce your photo period by 2-3 hours. Wait a month and if the BBA comes back you know it is a CO2/flow issue. If it doesn't come back increase your photo period to what it was and try increasing the dosage of each of the macros until you find out which you weren't dosing enough of.


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## takadi

How established is your tank? Sometimes algae is just a symptom of a transition and having plants flourishing and the tank stabilized is the only way to reduce algae. Excel also helps a ton


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## esworp

takadi said:


> How established is your tank? Sometimes algae is just a symptom of a transition and having plants flourishing and the tank stabilized is the only way to reduce algae. Excel also helps a ton



it's /well/ established. almost a year of ongoing pruning.


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## IsNull

From the dead... anyone ever get a handle on this stuff. I'm facing this in my tank and it's driving me nuts. I've got an chinese algae eater in there, but he doesn't seem to be interested. It's killing my plants.

I've tried upping my flow and increased surface ripple, upping my CO2, I've got relatively high light output for ~6 hours a day. In the last week I started upping my KNO3 from EI dosing and I don't see much difference. I'm about to bump up my KH2P04 too. My plant growth seems to have started stagnating just out of the blue.

90% of the floor is carpeted plants now and I suck a fair amount of dead material from it when I do my weekly 50% water change.

I'm thinking of adding some Zebra Nerite snails and maybe some shrimp. Don't know much about handling shrimp so I'm a little gun shy on those.


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## OAli

I have rcs and amanos, neither of them touch the stuff, I am currently reducing my lighting and moved my hob filter from the corner of the tank to the middle. That seemed to help a little.

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## HUNTER

It's just difficult to pinpoint what really causing this algaes growth, it's all assumption. I'm tired of it myself, I might just end up with hardscape and no plants


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## dewalltheway

I am still dealing with this issue but it seems to be not as bad except of my slow growers. I found with keeping up on water changes and keeping my filters clean has helped but has not gotten rid of it. You will see in the picture below the leaves that are destroyed by it, the leaves that are getting it and the new growth.


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## filipem

So nobody knows what this is? I'm starting to get some of this crap on my plants. Same symptoms mentioned above grows on slower growing plants on the lower leaves or bottom plants can't rub it off doesn't appear to be BBA.


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## jrill

Looks like bba and GSA to me. Inconsistent co2 has always been the cause of bba in my tanks. Not enough phosphates for the GSA.

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## BruceF

IU would have thought that was cyanobacteria.


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## benealing

It may be worth your while to read some of the toxicity threads that are on going. Seems like toxicity/deficiency can be very difficult to distinguish.

Ben


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