# Breeding Amano Shimp "The Trial"



## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

Anxious to see how this goes. Good luck and keep us posted


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*1. I will set up the 20 gal half full of pre mixed saltwater and adjust to 34ppt salinity using R/O water to reduce salinity or aquarium salt to increase salinity. The put the light against the side of the tank and leave it on 24/7 to promote algae growth for the zeo's to feed off.*

Aquarium salt and Marine or Reef salt are not the same things... if the salinity is too low, you need Marine or Reef salt to up the salinity.

You may want to look into some phytoplankton or other small foods to feed the zoes, too....



*2. Once I can see tiny eyes in the eggs of the buried female I will move her to the 1 gal container and fill with aquarium water from the tank she came. I will add an air stone with very low flow and feed 1 spirlina flake daily until she releases the zeo's. If water changes become necessary I will remove 25% and add more tank water.*

Moving a berried amano into another container may cause her to drop her eggs... it can take anywhere from 15-50 days for the eggs to hatch.



*3. Once she releases the zeo's I will then remove the female and put her back into my main tank.*

Amano eggs can hatch over a period of days, if not weeks... be sure to have a flashlight on hand to use on the side of the aquarium to check for babies when it's completely dark!



*4. I will then fill another 1gal tupperware container with saltwater from the 20gal tank that has been aging and growing algae. Using an air stone to prevent sucking up the zeo's I will siphon 1/2 of the water out of the container with the zeo's and start a dip of saltwater to top it off. I will be trying a drip ever 5 sec or so.*

You could honestly just dump the zoes straight into saltwater, or even brackish, within a week's time of hatching and they'd still be okay...

The zoes are *normally* born in freshwater streams or rivers which lead out to the ocean. They tend to unceremoniously get "dumped" into saltier conditions...



*5. Once the acclimation to partial saltwater is done I will float the one gal container for about 2 hrs in the 20 gal to ensure a slow temp acclimation. I will be trying a temp of about 70F for the zeo's.*

Sounds good.



*6. From here on out I will be monitoring the water for clarity and feeding as necessary as well as testing the parameters daily. I chose a 20 gal for this purpose as I do not plan on water changes but will do if needed.*

Rather large tank. Good thought process!



*7. Once I see forward swimming shrimp (zeo's that have morphed) I will wait 2 days and then start the acclimation back to freshwater over a 1 day period.*

It can take 3-6 weeks for the zoes to morph into miniature adults... so you can't acclimate the entire tank at once to freshwater... sorry, not that simple! Also, you might kill the new shrimp doing an acclimation to freshwater that fast.

A day after you start noticing the miniature adults (aka, when the forward moving babies are no longer red), you then catch them, put them into a container and do 50% water changes with freshwater. If you want, you can take out 50% and drip freshwater back into their container. Do this for 3 days.

Day 1 morph - Saltwater Tank
Day 2 morph - Saltwater container with 50% water change (if you start with 34 ppt, it will be 17ppt)
Day 3 morph - Brackish container with 50% water change (~8.5 ppt)
Day 4 morph - Salty Freshwater with 50% water change (end up being ~4 ppt)
Day 5 morph - Freshwater

Adults cannot live in full marine conditions. They can, however, live in brackish water, no more than 17 ppt. (not recommending it, though!) Although the zoes can live in full marine conditions (34 ppt), the newly morphed young cannot survive lone in marine conditions either... and transitioning them to freshwater over a period of 1 day may be too big of a change and kill them.



*8. My goal is to have 40+ Amano's make it to maturity and work on improving yields in the future.*

Amanos can have a minimum of 300-400 offspring, and potentially over 2,000... (may depend on age of amano) So if you can even get 1 to survive, that would be an accomplishment!




My best attempt, which was my first, the longest I had one survive was up to 2 weeks in saltwater... if your first attempt fails, you might try doing brackish. Some people have better luck in saltwater, where-as others have better luck in brackish water...


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Great info @Zoidburg I will definately makes some changes to my plan. New goal is 1 mature amano lol have to start somewhere

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I've decided I don't have enough amanos... and would love to try again if I could have a colony of amanos! More offspring that way...


Best of luck!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I've decided I don't have enough amanos... and would love to try again if I could have a colony of amanos! More offspring that way...
> 
> 
> Best of luck!


Feel free to use this thread if you give it a go in the future I won't consider it hijacking as a comparison between variables in one place I would find helpful as would others I think

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

If you are successful, I can add you to the list of people who have attempted and succeeded! I've got a bit of a list.... lol


I can share some of it later?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> If you are successful, I can add you to the list of people who have attempted and succeeded! I've got a bit of a list.... lol
> 
> 
> I can share some of it later?


I would welcome any and all info regarding amano shrimp including those that have been successful  I don't really have an idea of what the success rate is? I more just though most people consider it to be to much of a hassle.

Dan

Bump: To start here is a pic taken April 30th first day berried. Mossy green color as described in the research I have done that indicates she is newly berried (If that is correct) As someone who literally gets in trouble for watching my aquarium during movies with my fiancee I am certain April 30th was day 1.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I'd say the success rate is extremely low. 


It's not necessarily that people are lazy, it's the fact that it is so extremely hard to accomplish!


I'd get links/info later!


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

~5 weeks from berried to hatch 
Do not need to be fed while in freshwater (at least the first 3-4 days?)
Transfer to saltwater within 8 days of hatching (no acclimation required) 
Zoes are attracted to light 
Salinity between 30 and 35 ppt (1.022 to 1.026 sg) 
Air stone with reduced flow 
Temperature 68° F to 84° F?
Diet (only one or two required - plankton “must have”) 

Diatoms 
Phytoplankton 

Tetraselmis 
Dunalliela Salina 
Nannochloropsis 
Rotifers? (zooplankton)
Isochrysis sp. Tahaitian?

Liquizell 
Golden Pearls (5-50 Microns - larger may work) 
Spirulina Powder (mixed with water) 
Mosura Shrimpton
Light on for 16-24 hrs a day 
Morph into adults around 3-6 weeks of age 
Acclimate morphed babies (post larvae form) to fresh water within a few days over a period of 3 days, changing 50% of saltwater to fresh once a day - 4th day, move to freshwater

Side Note: Adults survive salinity up to 17-18 ppt (for hatching in brackish water) - Adults cannot survive full concentration of marine water, eggs will not hatch in saltwater

Resources; 
https://gabhar.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/breeding-amano/ 
Amano Shrimp | Care, Diet & Breeding - AquariumInfo.org 
Caridina Japonica Online 
Amanogarnele Caridina japonica (multidentata) Amanos Amano Zuchtbericht (German) 
ShrimpNow !!! - Breeding Amano (Yamato) Shrimp (English version of above article) 
ShrimpNow !!! - Caridina Japonica breeding
Raising C. Multidentata | unspecified

Video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHDZyeVCm4c

Bump: Japanese article...
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AOwz61_2jH42iMA&cid=8130D9B85C407A2B&id=8130D9B85C407A2B!175&parId=8130D9B85C407A2B!174&o=OneUp


Other information that may be relevant... different shrimp with similar/same breeding habits...
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AH_rLT3OA1TIONM&cid=8130D9B85C407A2B&id=8130D9B85C407A2B!166&parId=root&o=OneUp

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AHl4-_8Dvxh3VbY&cid=8130D9B85C407A2B&id=8130D9B85C407A2B!167&parId=root&o=OneUp

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!APbnxai8O72p-2Q&cid=8130D9B85C407A2B&id=8130D9B85C407A2B!176&parId=8130D9B85C407A2B!174&o=OneUp

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=!AOKHps_mngylgts&cid=8130D9B85C407A2B&id=8130D9B85C407A2B!165&parId=root&o=OneUp


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> ~5 weeks from berried to hatch
> Do not need to be fed while in freshwater (at least the first 3-4 days?)
> Transfer to saltwater within 8 days of hatching (no acclimation required)
> Zoes are attracted to light
> ...


Great info @Zoidburg I have been researching also and appears PH of the Pacific Ocean along the coast of japan is 8.1-8.15 So I will be shooting for this and water temps are actually quite high in July when most breeding activity has been recorded around 80-82F. I'm thinking of a sacrificial first attempt splitting zeo's into 3 batchs 17ppt, 34ppt, 50ppt to compare time, survival rate etc. I read a study somewhere in the million and one pages I read today that seemed to indicate a salinity of 5-15% (50ppt-150ppt) yielded best hatch rate it was a study from 1980's but I can for the life of me find it again. It seems very suspect to me but I figure if I'm going to test some variables I may as well add 1 more.

Also thinking that ammonia will be critical at that PH so I'm think of setting up and cycling both fresh and saltwater tanks in future attempts by simply putting a sponge over the air stone and adding minute amounts of nutrients until I reach 5ppm nitrates. Maybe overly thinking this and overly cautious... thoughts?

Dan


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

I threw my amano zoe into my brackish water tank to see what would happen. It already had nerites (who bred, no less) in it, so that might have contributed but in the end I have two more male amanos swimming around.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Picked up a bucket of instant ocean marine salt (not cheap $70 CAD) and some phytoplankton Will be setting the saltwater tank up tomorrow. After a million pages of reading I decided against trying different salinities and going to go with 75F and 34 PPT salinity I will be using a coarse filter sponge over the heater because I'm probably over thinking it. Also adding an air stone for water movement. 

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

I tried it once...complete failure! Lost them all a few days after putting into salt water. But I was "winging it"...didn't have the right equipment or salinity. Will follow..can't wait to see if you are successful!

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

I decided to purchase a new 10g tank instead of using the 20g I had as I got it used and had no clue if meds were ever dosed in the tank. If this attempt proves successful I may purchase a 20g for zeos and use the 10g for the berried females. It would be a shame to make an attempt just to have it fail because of a variable I don't know about. Set it up 50% R/O and 50% tap water so I will have minimal phosphates and nitrates to feed the phytoplankton once I introduce them. Power head on it for 24 hrs just to help with dissolution of salt. No sponge over the heater yet and rethinking this as it may catch some zeos. Now I wait, probably 2-4 weeks until I can see eyes in the eggs and then I will move the female to a 1g container filled with my main tank water. Then then let the challenge begin!

Here is a pic of the tank.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Day 20 she started hatching the zeo's. I don't have a pic as I just broke the camera lens on my phone while fishing a few days ago and just got back from the lake. I transferred what looked to be about 30 zeo's into the 10g saltwater tank but I cannot see a single one now. I plan to transfer each day until she is done hatching. On a side note I have another female that is berried as of May 17th so if all goes south I will have another kick at the cat soon. Somehow lost my charger for my home camera too so I will be getting something tomorrow to get some pics. My god these guys are tiny and my eyesight probably isn't helping. Also fed 4 ml of phytoplankton after moving them.

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Day 20 she started hatching the zeo's. I don't have a pic as I just broke the camera lens on my phone while fishing a few days ago and just got back from the lake. I transferred what looked to be about 30 zeo's into the 10g saltwater tank but I cannot see a single one now. I plan to transfer each day until she is done hatching. On a side note I have another female that is berried as of May 17th so if all goes south I will have another kick at the cat soon. Somehow lost my charger for my home camera too so I will be getting something tomorrow to get some pics. My god these guys are tiny and my eyesight probably isn't helping. Also fed 4 ml of phytoplankton after moving them.
> 
> Dan


You're hard on electronics, aren't you? [emoji3] Anyway, just so you know, they are zoes, (zo-ees), not zeos. Keep updating us...can't wait to see how it all goes!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

KarenSoCal said:


> You're hard on electronics, aren't you? [emoji3] Anyway, just so you know, they are zoes, (zo-ees), not zeos. Keep updating us...can't wait to see how it all goes!


Haha thanks I'm new to shrimp and all the terminology that goes with it and I appreciate you correcting so I don't continue to make that evident. I have a video I will post tomorrow, I stole my fiancée's phone to aid in my obsession. Looks to be 50+ Zoes maybe even 100. I made the mistake of putting my female in a 1 gallon container with moss and some plant clippings so she would feel comfortable. Which made it difficult to separate the zoes. I have another female that should be ready to hatch in about 15-20 days and I'm going to use a large glass with an airstone at 1-2 bbs. That way I can just remove the female and dump the zoes into the saltwater tank rather then try to siphon them out using a light. 7.5g of saltwater in 10g tank with 33ppt salinity and a temp of 75F. The reason I did this was the option to easily lower the salinity by adding R/O in the future if I decide to go that route. This is all still new to me but I'm fairly confident and not easily discouraged.

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Haha thanks I'm new to shrimp and all the terminology that goes with it and I appreciate you correcting so I don't continue to make that evident. I have a video I will post tomorrow, I stole my fiancée's phone to aid in my obsession. Looks to be 50+ Zoes maybe even 100. I made the mistake of putting my female in a 1 gallon container with moss and some plant clippings so she would feel comfortable. Which made it difficult to separate the zoes. I have another female that should be ready to hatch in about 15-20 days and I'm going to use a large glass with an airstone at 1-2 bbs. That way I can just remove the female and dump the zoes into the saltwater tank rather then try to siphon them out using a light. 7.5g of saltwater in 10g tank with 33ppt salinity and a temp of 75F. The reason I did this was the option to easily lower the salinity by adding R/O in the future if I decide to go that route. This is all still new to me but I'm fairly confident and not easily discouraged.
> 
> Dan


Good for you! Looking forward to the video.

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

OK managed to get the video up, its short but shows the zoes making their way to the light.






Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> OK managed to get the video up, its short but shows the zoes making their way to the light.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST5s-BooeNQ
> 
> Dan


Yep! Sure are tiny!

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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

Very cool! Best of luck!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Day 3 Zoes*

Grabbed a terrible pic of 3 day old Zoes.

I have noticed about 15-20 of the 50ish have grown substantially more than the rest. They are approximately 2 times larger and appear to have 2 white spots forming 1 mid body and 1 at the end of the tail. The rest still have what looks like a white head and tiny opaque tail with no white dots. The more developed zoes swim much faster when I turn the lights out and hold a light to the tank. 

On a side note May 17th the other female was berried and today 3 days after hatching the zoes the female I put back in has molted and the 3 males are going nuts on her so I'm expecting to see her berried tomorrow.

Also the phytoplankton I cultured is no good as I used 2 mil of miracle grow in a 500ml bottle. It grew like mad but today I was testing the water and my ammonia was 1.6. How these guys even are living is beyond me. They must be extremely resilient at this stage. I did a 50% WC and going to continue 50% a day until I get it back down to 0. water changes take about 2 hrs as I'm draining with and airline hose attached to an airstone and the filling the same way. Thank goodness I still have half the original phytoplankton left and I will add 2 ml of it tomorrow to 500 ml of D/O water and test ammonia before adding to the tank. I think I will try 1 drop of miracle grow in a 2 liter in the future and test before use when culturing phytoplankton.

Added: I also ordered 50-100 micron golden pearls today and will introduce it at about 10 days and see if the zoes go after it at that point

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

This is exciting! Love it!

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Day 7 Zoes Update*

So my ammonia is reading 0.1 now after 2 water changes which leads me to believe the phytoplankton have consumed the rest. As you can see from the photo my tank has now turned green with phytoplankton which concerns me over oxygen levels so I have upped the aeration to be quite vigorous 2 days ago and seems to have not had an effect on the survival rate. The one bonus side is I have stopped feeding for the last 3 days as the phytoplankton are now readily reproducing in the tank there is no need to add more . I can see some growth in almost all of the zoes so that's is a promising sign. Here is a pic of the now green tank and a link to a short vid of zoes chasing my light. I can only do a 9 sec vid because i'm still using my fiancée's phone and anything larger I cannot email to myself.

Video: 




Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Well, lack of food certainly won't be a problem for awhile!  But it kind of cuts down on the viewing pleasure!

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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I'm thinking you may end up having more success than me!


Hoping it is so! Keep the updates coming!


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## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

Ohhh I hope they make it back to fresh water! Awesome thread


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*14 Day Update*

On day 8 with the water being so green with phytoplankton it was very difficult to see the zoes at all and part of the point to this is observing behavior and growth, so I decided to make some changes. I took a 3.3L Tupperware container and syphoned out enough of the green water to fill the container. I then took a light and attracted the zoes to one corner and also syphoned them out into the 3.3 litre container. I'm pretty sure I missed some (or for some reason had some deaths) as in the new container I can only see about 15ish. With the new container I also scraped off a small amount of the algae from the bottom of the 10g and put it in the 3.3L.

Part of my thinking on this was I will be able to separate batches of zoes and my previous thought of no water changes has gone out the window as surface scum from feeding golden pearls is a reality. I did notice zoes getting trapped in some of the air bubbles although within 1-2 sec the bubbles broke and the zoe would swim away unharmed if I let the problem get worse I would be certain it could cause mortalities. So it will be less water to change and easier to observe but that came with a trade off... Evaporation! the salinity change is now rapid and I need to top off daily in order to maintain it. I am going to try a drilling 2 holes in the lid that fits it so I can run the air line through 1 and the other will act as a pressure relief. I'm hoping this cuts back on the evaporation because I'm leaving Monday to go fishing again for a few days.

On day 10 I started feeding golden pearls 50-100 micron. I am feeding in the tiniest quantities as to reduce polluting the water as much as possible, I touch the back of a 2ml teaspoon to the food so a bit sticks to it and then hold over the tank and tap the spoon so the food (near dust size) falls off. I could visibly see the zoes going after it, they are much quicker now and have no problems swimming against the flow of water. I have also observed them to be what looks like picking at the bottom and walls for food. I know that might sound odd but I could swear these guys can forage. I have read about this behavior observed by some others as well. I have also noticed what looks like flicking thier tails that propels them extremely fast for a very short distance (like less than and inch). Also I am starting to notice a few of them are taking on more of a curved like "C" shape at times (not all the time) just found this odd.

On a side note I have ordered a new camera lens and housing for my phone that should be here around Monday so I will be fixing when I get back from fishing and be able to do longer video's. 

No pics in this post but I will steal the Boss's phone when she gets home and post some then.

Added: I forgot to mention the 3.3L containers fit inside the 10g so I keep the 10g half full of water with and air stone for movement and heater to keep temps in the 3.3L at a stable 75F

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Fast update my other female Amano that was berried on May 17th has started to hatch zoes. I can see about 25 at first glance and she still has tons of eggs so it looks promising. It look like I will have some photo's later that will show the size difference between the newly hatched and the 14 day zoes. It should provide a decent idea of growth and I would say at 14 days close to 2-3x the size if I had to guess. 

On another note the female that hatched the first batch is still not berried again. Although I did see her molt and the males trying to get all over her still nothing. I guess she was not in the mood but I am checking her daily and have not seen the males pester her since shortly after her molt.

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Fascinating...like a novel! Keep it coming!

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

OK I have some pics all taken same zoom and distance. I syphoned 3 of the 14 day old out into a coffee cup so its easier to see and did the same with about 1/3 of the newly hatched today zoes all in the name of viewing pleasure (inspired by @KarenSoCal lol). I also took pics of the cups next to a 500ml bottle to put a little better proportion on scale and the new setup of the 10gal.

I think I was a little off in my guess of 2-3x the size

Here they are but I don't know how to put things in order so its all random:

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh my gosh! The 2 week olds are really growing nicely! The others, of course, only look like dust in the water. Looks like a good setup to me. You're doing great!

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Just walked in from 4 days fishing. Some of the first batch of zoes have almost doubled in size??? I don't know if its just my mind playing tricks but after unpacking/organizing and a nap to follow I will post pics and maybe a vid or 2 tonight. I have to check the mailbox for my camera lens and housing to see if its here yet. Looks like they all did fantastic with 4 days of nothing being done. I did measure the salinity and it has not changed a bit since I left with the lids in place, it turned out it works better than I though for combating evaporation. The second batch of zoes is definitely a lot more than the first and I think I know why but will include that in my post tonight with pics. It's looking like it may be possible to achieve my original 20 shrimp goal. Not a lot or room for error here on out though if I'm going to achieve it. I am going to do a water change tonight so for the sake of viewing I will pull some of each out for reference pics.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*18 Day Update*

So I returned from a 4 day fishing trip today as I stated in my last post. In addition to the info in my previous post another female is berried. It seems 5 Amano shrimp can keep you quite busy. I have a few pics no video but I did find my camera charger after going on a mission to find it because I cannot see these guys well enough. So I will make a video and try to find a container that I can get some much better video and photo's of in the next couple days. I am also considering a macro lens for better pics.

The 19 day old zoes have grown quite a bit in 4 days and I have noticed about 4-5 of them can swim forwards. I spent about 1 hr watching to make sure it wasn't just my wishful thinking and its very clear they can. The strange part is the can swim both frontwards and backwards which really has me confused so I checked to see if they are still attracted to light and yes they are. They swim very differently between forward and backwards. Forward is relatively similar to the adults but very slow and backwards they still swim just like the other zoes. I was under the impression once they start to swim forwards they have morphed and are ready to start the journey back to freshwater. My eyes are terrible and I cannot tell if what I see are legs but they do not appear to be buzzing around the tank as described by others so I'm going to leave them for now since I find it hard to believe at day 19 I would have 4-5 zoes morphed. I can confirm that these guys can forage and I'm thinking one of the keys to raising them is having phytoplankton rich water off the start until about day 10ish, then having algae growth on the walls and bottom. I can see them take the golden pearls but as much as I feel they help I get the feeling the algae building up on the walls and bottom are essential and they are always grazing on it. 

In regards to the 5 day old zoes I won't talk to much on them since I have previously other than the fact I have waaaay!!! more this time. I mean like 100-200 ish its really hard to guess. I think this is due to my lack of experience the first time around. I was scooping water out of the holding container with the berried female into the main tank and then filling back up with water from my main tank 1-2 times a day to keep the water tip top. I am sure I dumped a bunch back into the tank because I could not see them. How tiny they are when they hatch cannot not even be explained. At 4 days though I can definitely see 1/2 or so already much bigger in relation to the others.

Here are a couple pics, not as much difference as I previously thought. The pics are not all of the 5 day old zoes but almost all of the 19 day old.

The title should be 19 Day Update

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Really enjoying this!

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Fixed my camera on my phone so I took a short video of a couple 20 day old zoes. You can see one of them swimming forwards and backwards but I cannot see legs yet. If you notice them trying to pick at the glass this is the constant feeding behavior I see nonstop.

Here is the link: 




Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

They are not ready to start the *slow* (aka over a course of 3 days) to freshwater yet.


They are red. You are waiting for newly transformed amanos that look like miniature adults. Once they reach this stage, the first day they will be red. Leave them be. Come back the following day and if they are clear, then net them out and mix the water they are in with 50% freshwater. Next day, remove half the now brackish water and refill with 50% freshwater. After you do this 3 times, you can then transfer them straight to freshwater.


Keep in mind that they wont all transform at once, so you could have multiple containers of shrimp babies acclimating to freshwater.

Great job!!!!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> They are not ready to start the *slow* (aka over a course of 3 days) to freshwater yet.
> 
> 
> They are red. You are waiting for newly transformed amanos that look like miniature adults. Once they reach this stage, the first day they will be red. Leave them be. Come back the following day and if they are clear, then net them out and mix the water they are in with 50% freshwater. Next day, remove half the now brackish water and refill with 50% freshwater. After you do this 3 times, you can then transfer them straight to freshwater.
> ...


Great!!! Thank you for the information @Zoidburg takes the guess work out of it for me. Any idea of chances here on out? or things I need to look out for?

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Well, you've gotten further than I have........ so.......... lol


I might be using *YOUR* thread as an additional resource once I've got more amano zoes myself!


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Fixed my camera on my phone so I took a short video of a couple 20 day old zoes. You can see one of them swimming forwards and backwards but I cannot see legs yet. If you notice them trying to pick at the glass this is the constant feeding behavior I see nonstop.
> 
> Here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7aLJNPN5nA
> 
> Dan


This is so incredibly neat! They're really starting to look shrimpy(???), lol. Great job and good luck!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Thanks for the kind words everyone.

@Zoidburg only fair that i can in part return the favor for all the help you have been. Still not out of the woods yet but I'm optimistic.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Considering how far you've gotten, I have no doubt you can get the babies to adult-hood!


I can't guarantee any future success, even with the second batch (read some of the older threads here...), but if you do it once, you have a better chance of doing it again!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Yeah I have found the same from almost everything I read. I have a few thoughts I will keep to myself on the matter that may be key until I can prove them but by all means if you want to hear them shoot me a pm. I would rather not post what may be misinformation.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Day 22 Freshly morphed Amano ---> Shrimp!!! <---*

Well on Day 22 I have 5 freshly morphed Amano shrimp  Now the road back to freshwater begins and I will start that tomorrow. I'm headed out to pick up some new equipment in order to make this process easier in the future. Also both my female Amano are berried again so looks like I will get a chance to try and improve my yields and try new or other methods.

Please excuse my videos skills or lack there of.

here is the link: 




Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

Dan, do you think the transition back to freshwater will be the most difficult stage of this entire process?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Personally i feel it won't be an issue but I cannot say for sure since this is my first time. To be honest I am anticipating no losses.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I'll wait a bit, but would love to know your thoughts, since you've gotten this far!


The shrimp don't look quite clear enough to be ready for the transition (look kind of reddish/orange still?), but definitely further than before!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I'll wait a bit, but would love to know your thoughts, since you've gotten this far!
> 
> 
> The shrimp don't look quite clear enough to be ready for the transition (look kind of reddish/orange still?), but definitely further than before!


I'm going to give the first 5 a try and if I notice any issues I will adjust on the next few that are ready. How long is recommended in full salinity after morph roughly?

I was thinking of the transition process and the first jump is 17ppt then only 8.5ppt then 4.25 ppt. I mean the process makes sense but I think I will add another day and do 1/4 (freshwater) first day to approx. 26ppt then 1/3 second day to approx. 17ppt then 1/2 third day to approx. 9ppt and 1/2 fourth day to approx. 4ppt then freshwater. I feel its a little more even dropping approx. 8ppt a day instead of 17ppt right off the get go.

What do you think?

Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

I really don't know, but that makes sense to slow the transition. In a river it would be gradual.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

I bought 10 1cup containers that are marked with 1/4,1/3,/1/2,3/4 and 1 cup so its will be easy enough to adjust. I also made a new setup to allow for more room (quite a bit bigger and easier to manage) and going to use the 10g to grow out until they are big enough to go into my main tank. I also have another 20Gal if I need but I got it used so I'm not sure if I want to use it.

Here is what it looks like now.

Dan


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

this is just about the coolest thing ive read on this site! well done and congrats!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

aubie98 said:


> this is just about the coolest thing ive read on this site! well done and congrats!


Thank you very much. I appreciate the compliment.

Dan


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> I also have another 20Gal if I need but I got it used so I'm not sure if I want to use it.


What's the concern about the 20gal exactly?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

geisterwald said:


> What's the concern about the 20gal exactly?


If it was ever dosed with copper based medication. I would have no problem putting fish in there but shrimp are very sensitive.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> I'm going to give the first 5 a try and if I notice any issues I will adjust on the next few that are ready. How long is recommended in full salinity after morph roughly?
> 
> I was thinking of the transition process and the first jump is 17ppt then only 8.5ppt then 4.25 ppt. I mean the process makes sense but I think I will add another day and do 1/4 (freshwater) first day to approx. 26ppt then 1/3 second day to approx. 17ppt then 1/2 third day to approx. 9ppt and 1/2 fourth day to approx. 4ppt then freshwater. I feel its a little more even dropping approx. 8ppt a day instead of 17ppt right off the get go.
> 
> ...


It's recommended to leave the freshly morphed young amanos in full salinity for ~24 hours, or until they are no longer red.

Adults can't survive in full salinity and will perish, which is why it's recommended to do the transition over 3 days. 


1-24 hrs - full salinity
25-48 hrs - brackish (~17 ppt)
49-72 hrs - "salty" freshwater (8.5 ppt)
73-96 - mostly freshwater (4.25 ppt)


Acclimate any faster, especially before they are clear, and they'll perish. (not ready to make the transition to full freshwater)

Acclimate any slower, and they'll perish. (they can't handle full salinity or anything higher than full brackish for very long after molting)



The only way I can see the method you'd like to attempt to use is if you started when they were red rather than clear. I can't guarantee it'll be any better, only basing this information from previous attempts by other people.


If you wanted, you could just transition them to brackish (~17ppt) water ~24 hours after they molt and keep them there, or continue the transition to freshwater over a period of days.





On a side note, I have zoes starting to hatch... that is, hoping that they haven't already hatched and what I'm seeing are the last zoes. Came back from a weekend trip and there's a large molt in the tank. I feel like it's from the female shrimp, not the male, in which case, I wont be seeing very many zoes. I've gotten about 10 so far.

If the molt is in fact from the male, then this would be at the beginning of the hatch, rather than at the end.

Female is berried, so really hoping it's just the male that molted and the molt appears larger than it really is!


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## DanPlanted (Jun 15, 2015)

Wow. This is really cool. I can't even keep one shrimp alive, never mind breed them.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> It's recommended to leave the freshly morphed young amanos in full salinity for ~24 hours, or until they are no longer red.
> 
> Adults can't survive in full salinity and will perish, which is why it's recommended to do the transition over 3 days.
> 
> ...


OK great info I think I will transfer them to 26ppt right after molt then leave them in 26 ppt until they are clear and carry on to see if that works. I will share a few thoughts on what I feel may have helped but I cannot prove these so take it with a grain of salt and you may want to just discount this and not use.

1) I feel phytoplankton is important up until about day 10 after that changing the water to be much less concentrated with phytoplankton seem to do no harm and I could see the zoes look to be what I considered foraging for food on the walls and bottom so I think having some algae growth by day 10 is important. Of course this affected by aeration of water to much flow they don't seem to be able to do this. Addition of golden pearls at this point is probably a good idea but especially so if lacking algae/diatoms on the walls and bottom. (I only fed 1-2 times a day tiny amount of golden pearls)

2) The lighting, I feel this had more impact than I realized looking back at it. Lighting the tank or containers from the side (while I did this because of convenience) I feel played a big role in losses until they were strong enough to fight the current created by the airstone. I found the zoes to be extremely attracted to light and about 1/3 way through I made some changes to use it to my advantage (in theory). Instead of the zoes trying to swim to the surface towards the light and getting caught up in surface scum they would instead swim to the side, leading them to a food source. 

3) Air stone placement. Again about 1/3 through I though placing the air stones in the container opposite the side of light would keep them from being pushed to the surface and getting trapped in bubbles and surface scum. I noticed this happening when I started feeding golden pearls and it seem to solve the problem.

4) Heating. By heating the containers in a tank I could keep all the temps the exact same for water changes. I mixed my instant ocean and aerated for 24hrs while sitting in the tank then adjusted the salinity to match an hour or 2 before I did the water changes. I used 5 25 ml scoops into 1 gal that gave me about 36ppt salinity then topped up with D/O water to get 33-34 ppt salinity. By doing this the water was exactly the same temp as the water in the container.

5) Salinity. I found using containers with lids and holes drilled in them to run air stones and a breather hole I could reduce the change in salinity to undetectable for days.

Again take this with a grain of salt because I have no proof but I have a feeling each contributed a bit towards success. Some more than others like lighting, temp and air stone placement.

Wishing you all the luck in getting these guys all growed up  I have no doubt you will do it.

Added: Also I don't think they are affected at all by high levels of any form of nitrogen in the larval stages but I have no idea about in the mysid or shrimp stage. I had 1.6 ppm ammonia at one point combined with a high PH you would think would be very deadly.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Just wanted to show the difference in the amount of 8 day old zoes from the second batch compared to the first. I definitely missed a ton on the first batch and if the second goes as well I will have a ton of shrimp. I found removing the female from the 3.3 litre holding container then using a light to attract the zoes to 1 side and using an air stone and air line to syphon the water out on the other side until there is maybe 1/2" water left. Then refilling with 34ppt marine water to be much more efficient. 

Terrible quality Video: 




Dan


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## iter (Apr 24, 2012)

It's so interesting seeing their response to light! That's a lot of zoes.....it'll be cool to see that swarm all grow up.


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> If it was ever dosed with copper based medication. I would have no problem putting fish in there but shrimp are very sensitive.
> 
> Dan


Ah yeah, I didn't consider that. I was like "what is there that a quick bleaching and leak test wouldn't take care of," and well, that, lol.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

This definitely makes a great diary to look back onto!

In regards to feeding phytoplankton up to 10 days old... I want to say that they don't eat while they are in freshwater, and will not eat until they are of a certain age, which could be 8+ days old. Just a little something I recall reading, where they are still consuming their "yolk sacs" after hatching, so they don't start feeding until they've gone through 2-3 molts and may have 9 stages of larval form?

But phytoplankton is still recommended as at least one food source.


May need to go and dig through some articles.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> This definitely makes a great diary to look back onto!
> 
> In regards to feeding phytoplankton up to 10 days old... I want to say that they don't eat while they are in freshwater, and will not eat until they are of a certain age, which could be 8+ days old. Just a little something I recall reading, where they are still consuming their "yolk sacs" after hatching, so they don't start feeding until they've gone through 2-3 molts and may have 9 stages of larval form?
> 
> ...


I seem to remember reading along those lines but I think I came across 4-6 days in some and 8-9 in others. But 8-9 would make more sense thinking about that now, as most issues I have read about losses seemed to have been around days 8-10 so I don't think its to much of a stretch to say its likely linked. I don't know how to explain this but I get the feeling its not the free floating phytoplankton that they are readily feeding off for more than a few days if at all but rather the buildup of phytoplankton on the walls and bottom I was referring to as algae. If that makes sense. So reducing the amount of free floating phytoplankton that color the water green after 10 days or you have a sufficient build up, I didn't find to be an issue as its the buildup of it that settled that is actually the most beneficial in my observations. I can be quite challenged when it comes to explaining things at times, especially things that are new to me. I hope this is making sense.

Just need to say I really appreciate the help and input you have given and everyone else as well.

Dan


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

If you get this going sustain-ably, let me know when they're ready for bulk-sale!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

jellopuddinpop said:


> If you get this going sustain-ably, let me know when they're ready for bulk-sale!


I'm actually very optimistic. I will have a good idea in about 2 weeks as I should have 2 more batches by then and my 2nd batch should be ready for transfer back to freshwater if all works out. First will be RAOK and hopefully I can include the US in that. I'm going to ask a couple acquaintances that import and export fish what's all involved in that. But if it works out the way I plan I will more than likely sell to forum members for $1CAD/each plus shipping and less on larger quantities since its going back into the community of planted tanks and all the people who help in all aspects of the forum. 

Dan


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## Harry Muscle (Mar 13, 2007)

Dman911 said:


> I'm actually very optimistic. I will have a good idea in about 2 weeks as I should have 2 more batches by then and my 2nd batch should be ready for transfer back to freshwater if all works out. First will be RAOK and hopefully I can include the US in that. I'm going to ask a couple acquaintances that import and export fish what's all involved in that. But if it works out the way I plan I will more than likely sell to forum members for $1CAD/each plus shipping and less on larger quantities since its going back into the community of planted tanks and all the people who help in all aspects of the forum.
> 
> Dan


Where in Canada are you located?

Thanks,
Harry


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Harry Muscle said:


> Where in Canada are you located?
> 
> Thanks,
> Harry


Winnipeg, Manitoba

Dan


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

That's awesome dman. Would love to see you give nerite snails a go.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Krispyplants said:


> That's awesome dman. Would love to see you give nerite snails a go.


Thank @Krispyplants I did throw 2 of them that I caught piggy backing and laying eggs into brackish for about a week but no eggs and needed the room at the time for more zoes but I am thinking about putting more driftwood in the main tank and transferring the eggs over since I do see some eggs on my moss tree. If I do I will definitely start another thread on my attempt at nerite breeding. Maybe around July I will give it a go but I need to do some research.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

First 5 went into the 10 gal pure freshwater about 12 hrs ago. I can find 4/5 as of 5 min ago but they are rather hard to find. I lost 1 of the next batch of 3 that will be ready to go in tomorrow. and have about 8 for the day after that. Still more not ready yet but close. I found that some look like they are ready but still exhibit signs of being planktonic when using light. So I have decided to use this as the determining factor for when they are ready. If they turn the tail towards the light I consider them not ready. I have only done this to the last batch only and I'm sure as @Zoidburg said the second set were not quite ready and probably the reason for the loss (I blame my lack of patients for this). I managed to get a pic of 2 new amano's in the pure fresh water 10gal side by side.

Dan


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Wow, this is a great thread.

Many thanks for chronicling the process. I don't think I'll ever have Amanos in my tanks, but given the difficulty and skill taken to get this far, I'm really amazed and heartened to see you succeed with a creature that normally needs to be taken from the wild. Little steps that add knowledge on how the Amano can be more easily domestically bred.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Wow, this is a great thread.
> 
> Many thanks for chronicling the process. I don't think I'll ever have Amanos in my tanks, but given the difficulty and skill taken to get this far, I'm really amazed and heartened to see you succeed with a creature that normally needs to be taken from the wild. Little steps that add knowledge on how the Amano can be more easily domestically bred.


Thanks @GrampsGrunge I have to say the whole process has been very intriguing to me. Looking back to think this started simply because the first 5 shrimp I ever owned and 1 of them got what I thought was pregnant at the time lol. I have bred a lot of fish over the years but nothing as involving or intriguing as this, although cuckoo catfish were close. I am now a huge fan of shrimp and I never even seen it coming.

Dan


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Dman911 said:


> Thanks @*GrampsGrunge* I have to say the whole process has been very intriguing to me. Looking back to think this started simply because the first 5 shrimp I ever owned and 1 of them got what I thought was pregnant at the time lol. I have bred a lot of fish over the years but nothing as involving or intriguing as this, although cuckoo catfish were close. I am now a huge fan of shrimp and I never even seen it coming.
> 
> Dan


Years back I had acquired 8 Cory Pygmaeus from the LFS. They're dwarf Cories, only about 1" SL.

I was keeping them in my 45H and they always were swimming around in a big loose group foraging. On day I'm noticing that there's 3 smaller ones hounding a bigger rounded female, and she's been laying eggs in all the hundreds of little nooks and thickets in that tank. 

And in about 5 weeks time there's about 4 new youngsters that I can see that have established themselves, after a month there were 6 new young catfish joining the adults in the forays 'round the tank. I was surprised as the tank was also home to a ravenous school of 8 Head and Tail Light Tetras, and an Male Dicrossus Checkerboard Dwarf ciclid and a harried female Apisto Steindachneri that the goofy Checkerboard was valiantly trying to court. At any rate it wasn't the most friendly of tanks for tiny little fish to survive in, but those little catfish made it. Was my only success with breeding Cories and I wasn't even attempting. Unlike when I tried and failed with C. Julii.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Years back I had acquired 8 Cory Pygmaeus from the LFS. They're dwarf Cories, only about 1" SL.
> 
> I was keeping them in my 45H and they always were swimming around in a big loose group foraging. On day I'm noticing that there's 3 smaller ones hounding a bigger rounded female, and she's been laying eggs in all the hundreds of little nooks and thickets in that tank.
> 
> And in about 5 weeks time there's about 4 new youngsters that I can see that have established themselves, after a month there were 6 new young catfish joining the adults in the forays 'round the tank. I was surprised as the tank was also home to a ravenous school of 8 Head and Tail Light Tetras, and an Male Dicrossus Checkerboard Dwarf ciclid and a harried female Apisto Steindachneri that the goofy Checkerboard was valiantly trying to court. At any rate it wasn't the most friendly of tanks for tiny little fish to survive in, but those little catfish made it. Was my only success with breeding Cories and I wasn't even attempting. Unlike when I tried and failed with C. Julii.


Lol I know exactly where you are coming from I can't count how many times I gave up on a species just to have them breed a month or 2 later with no effort or attention. That's old saying "A watched pot never boils" comes to mind.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Well I must recant my statement "I don't anticipate any losses" in regards to returning the amano's to freshwater. This may be premature but in 2hrs. of looking I can only see 4/8 that have been added to the 10 gal. I'm hoping my eyesight is to blame but I get the feeling that is not the case. I have decided to add an extra step as precaution and to better keep track of mortality rates. If I manage to find all 8 I will possibly revert back to the previous steps. 

Here are my thoughts on this: I don't feel that changing the salinity is causing the "possible" issue but rather something in the makeup of my tap/tank water. With the change in salinity in addition to the change in overall water conditions/parameters from my tank/tap it may be to much of a change at one time. So I have mixed a 3ppt salinity container that I will keep adding all my freshly morphed amano's to until the batch is complete. Then let it sit for 3 more days. Following that I will start the same process of 50% water changes every 2 days to acclimate to the tap/tank water parameters. Doing so will allow me to definitively determine if the mortalities are related to the change in salinity or tank/tap water.

Thoughts?

Dan


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## feraledgeoutdoor (Jun 15, 2017)

done alot of reading on this... looks like i would have a better chance of getting struck by lighting than breading these shrimp lol


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Its a challenge but it will rewarding if its successful.

Dan


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## sfshrimp (May 24, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Its a challenge but it will rewarding if its successful.
> 
> Dan


did you try uv?

or 

do you have a friend with a proper salt tank to test some of the zoe?>>>


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfshrimp said:


> did you try uv?
> 
> or
> 
> do you have a friend with a proper salt tank to test some of the zoe?>>>


Try UV? like ultra violet light?

Test the zoes in what way?

Sorry I'm not quite understanding what you mean.

Dan


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## sfshrimp (May 24, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Try UV? like ultra violet light?
> 
> Test the zoes in what way?
> 
> ...


Well we can only think of people who have bred in freshwater and the species is a slight enigma. For example:

Test 1). Give three zoes to a friend who has a brine tank with no fish and no reactors
Test 2). Give three zoes into a quarantine with UV light to mitigate the bacteria


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfshrimp said:


> Well we can only think of people who have bred in freshwater and the species is a slight enigma. For example:
> 
> Test 1). Give three zoes to a friend who has a brine tank with no fish and no reactors
> Test 2). Give three zoes into a quarantine with UV light to mitigate the bacteria


I could definitely give it a try but I'm not having to much difficulty with the zoes. Its after they morph into shrimp and are being transferred to freshwater but I'm not 100% sure there is an issue yet. I have 8 that were acclimated back to freshwater in a 10g tank but can only find 4/8. So I'm not sure if they died or I just can't find them but not for lack of trying I looked for 2hrs and could only see 4. Getting the shrimp through the zoe stage really has not been to bad with my first batch and my second batch is 12 days and going strong.

Dan


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## sfshrimp (May 24, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> I could definitely give it a try but I'm not having to much difficulty with the zoes. Its after they morph into shrimp and are being transferred to freshwater but I'm not 100% sure there is an issue yet. I have 8 that were acclimated back to freshwater in a 10g tank but can only find 4/8. So I'm not sure if they died or I just can't find them but not for lack of trying I looked for 2hrs and could only see 4. Getting the shrimp through the zoe stage really has not been to bad with my first batch and my second batch is 12 days and going strong.
> 
> 
> Dan


You should sample the remaining stock 1/4 on uv, 1/4 on salt, leave the rest be if you can find them. WE need to figure this out.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfshrimp said:


> You should sample the remaining stock 1/4 on uv, 1/4 on salt, leave the rest be if you can find them. WE need to figure this out.


I don't have a UV, and do you mean keep the morphed shrimp in full salt water?

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

The newly morphed shrimp would probably die after 1-2 days of being in saltwater... that is, 24-48 hours.



I've got a peculiar and not ideal setup, but we'll see how well it works... and I'm not sure how the zoes are alive. I've got saltwater that's been sitting in a bucket for I don't know how many months now. No aeration or anything. Just bucket with a lid. The saltwater came from a tank that was set up but had no livestock in it. (well, beyond pest creatures you may find in an aquarium and live rock)

I have the zoes in a 1 gallon plastic pitcher, and the plastic is hazy but clear. The pitcher is then in a white bucket with a clip on light providing light to the bucket 24/7. Using Phytofeast for the plankton, although the bottle expired in March... hardly growing any algae.

I can't tell how many zoes are alive... have put around 12 in there. I know at least 4/5 are alive. Salinity is about 34/35 ppt. (finally have a refractometer!) The zoes should be about 1-8 days old. So starts another attempt... and still waiting for the *main hatch* from the adult amano...


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> The newly morphed shrimp would probably die after 1-2 days of being in saltwater... that is, 24-48 hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah, I'm still pulling the shrimp after morph. Not one mortality in the 3ppt water. I can't wait to see how your results turn out.

With my first batch I kept my salinity at a constant 33-35ppt never below and on the second I started with 31ppt and it has stayed there with the lid all because I was to lazy to adjust it up. The growth rate seems a little bit slower in the second batch only based on observation but tomorrow is day 14 and I can compare pictures to verify if this is the case or not.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I would like to move the setup into a 10g tank, just so the water parameters are more stable and I can see the zoes more easily. Did that on my first attempt with sand and live rock... and the longest one lived was 2 weeks... so ya, we'll see how this goes since I'm now a little better prepared!

For about a week though, I didn't know what the salinity of the pitcher was and had even added some RO water for evaporation. Looks like it needs a tad more now. (just so it doesn't go above that... there is a lid, but not sealed!)


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I would like to move the setup into a 10g tank, just so the water parameters are more stable and I can see the zoes more easily. Did that on my first attempt with sand and live rock... and the longest one lived was 2 weeks... so ya, we'll see how this goes since I'm now a little better prepared!
> 
> For about a week though, I didn't know what the salinity of the pitcher was and had even added some RO water for evaporation. Looks like it needs a tad more now. (just so it doesn't go above that... there is a lid, but not sealed!)


I'm thinking you will have much better luck if you didn't have a refractometer before. So excited to see how it goes for you. Are you heating or using a specific temperature?

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Looking at the dates I was 1 day off. The 2nd batch of zoes are 14 days today. The differences that I can account for with the 2nd batch are, no ammonia, salinity 31ppt, slightly less aeration, feeding golden pearls every second day with same amount as first batch (but there are easily 3 times as many zoes in the 2nd batch). When doing research on raising zoes I came across some info where it stated that the population density had no effect on survival rates unless it exceed 20 zoes/500ml. There may be more factors but at this time I cannot think of them. I have a 3rd and 4th batch on the way so I will make sure I maintain 33-35ppt salinity in both and check to see if this has an effect on growth and survival rate when compared to 31ppt. I will also split the 4th batch into 2 and see if this has an effect on growth and survival rates. If they are equal then I will assume it was the salinity. If the 4th batch being split shows better growth and survival rates then I will assume its population density. Very crude tests and cannot yield positive results but hopefully enough to gain some insight as its largely based on observation. Growth and survival rates will be done on day 14 to compare with the previous 2 batches.

Here is the difference between the first and second batch in the same containers similar zoom but the second looks a little closer. Notice the second batch seems to have a slower growth rate.

First pic is of first batch and second is of the second batch.

Added: Just realized I used a different camera and zoom is not right I will be correcting this shortly

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*14 day comparison*

Disregard the photo's in the last post, These are the proper photo's. In addition to the info above, I have noticed while a few are close to the same size it appears that the total reaching the size of the first batch in 14 days is far lower in the second batch which I harvested at least 3-4x the amount of zoes from. Also both batches went immediately into saltwater after hatching and spent no more than 1 day in freshwater. Some of the articles I have read and as @Zoidburg suggested leaving zoes in freshwater for 3-4 days may improve yields.

Here are the photo's in order first batch then second batch.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Not heating at all.... live in the freakin desert and we're already getting temps up to the 90's... house isn't temperature controlled, which means that we're going to need some fans on the tanks soon.

What heat they are getting is from room temp (gets very warm!) and the light itself. So far, I've measured 79-81°, closer to 82° F in temps.


If I had them in a 10g, then the temps would be on the cooler side, perhaps still in the mid/high 70 range, but cooler.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Missing shrimp update*

This morning when the lights came on in the 10g I managed to find 7/8 of the shrimp I put in, all of them on the sponge filter. Within 10 min of lights on I was having difficulty finding anymore than 3. This makes me think that all have survived and I am just having difficulty finding them, these guys truly have ninja like hiding skills. This is a 10g bare bottom tank with some algae on the bottom, a heater and sponge filter. They don't have a lot of hiding spaces. 

Today I will be adding another 10-15 shrimp to the 10gal and I will try to take some pictures or video tomorrow morning when the lights come on. They have actually grown quite a bit in the short time they have been in freshwater.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Amano 4 days in freshwater*

Found a couple out and about here are some pics and 2 video's. 1 snacking on the sponge filter and the other snacking on the algae (lets call him in training).

Video's: 












If you can't tell I'm a country fan so, I apologize if you don't like country. 

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

One last video of all shrimp but the last 3 from the first batch added to 10 gal. Will update in a weeks time to compare growth. And possibly update in between on the second batch. I think its fair to say this was a successful attempt although I'm sure continuing on and making some changes I will have better success and bigger yields as I learn and test different variables.






Dan


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Awesome Job!!!


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## ejendro (Aug 14, 2015)

great job, very interesting


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Those little guys are really full of energy, and fast!


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## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

Thanks for a great thread Dman! I have what has turned out to be six female amanos in my 75gal and because of your thread, I collected my first eggs and zoes night before last!  The plan was to catch one of the females, let her drop her eggs and just see how it goes. All the females seem to be ready to drop at around the same time though and stay pretty close together. I used a decent sized cup to catch and remove the berried female from the tank and when I poured her and her water into a small clear tub, I was suprised to find that even though she hadnt dropped her eggs yet, I had a good many zoes in the tub! They had to be from one of the other females and for me to get that many in a cup, there is no telling how many are in the tank. Anyways, I'm reading your thread daily and following in your footsteps lol. Hopefully I can atleast get some to morph and attempt to get them back to fresh water. You're having great success so far and I'm definitely pulling for you


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Stacy1 said:


> Thanks for a great thread Dman! I have what has turned out to be six female amanos in my 75gal and because of your thread, I collected my first eggs and zoes night before last!  The plan was to catch one of the females, let her drop her eggs and just see how it goes. All the females seem to be ready to drop at around the same time though and stay pretty close together. I used a decent sized cup to catch and remove the berried female from the tank and when I poured her and her water into a small clear tub, I was suprised to find that even though she hadnt dropped her eggs yet, I had a good many zoes in the tub! They had to be from one of the other females and for me to get that many in a cup, there is no telling how many are in the tank. Anyways, I'm reading your thread daily and following in your footsteps lol. Hopefully I can atleast get some to morph and attempt to get them back to fresh water. You're having great success so far and I'm definitely pulling for you



My 3rd berried female is just starting to hatch zoes. Since I now know exactly what I'm looking for and checking daily I can see how long it will take her to fully hatch the entire batch. she has hatched 4 zoes so far and I would have never know unless I was checking with a flashlight 3-4 times a day. So I think this info will help me decide if splitting the batch may help in the future by allowing 3-4 days after hatch in freshwater. So like the transfer back to freshwater I may in the future start pulling the zoes each day and keep them in freshwater for 4 days then transfer to salt and see if this has an effect on survival rates in batch 4. Unless the time it take for them to hatch is 1-2 days like suggested but I would still like to verify this to myself.

Wishing you all the luck in succeeding. Salinity seems to be extremely important and probably the single most important factor in my guess. If you don't have a refractometer they are very cheap off amazon or evilbay. like $25. Feel free to post here about your progress unless you are starting another thread and even in that case feel free share your experience in this thread. 

I'm rooting for ya

Added: You can shut the lights out and use a flashlight to get the rest of the zoes out from the tank. Just hold the light to a corner and then use airline tubing to syphon them out

Dan


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## DayOlder (Jul 12, 2014)

Dman911, Thank you for a great thread and also a ton of motivation. The time and energy you put into this was a great gift.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

DayOlder said:


> Dman911, Thank you for a great thread and also a ton of motivation. The time and energy you put into this was a great gift.



I will keeping adding info as I refine my methods and test variables. The problem is this may be slow as I have 5 amano shrimp and only 2 of those are females. If others are trying and reporting finds also I think as a community we could speed that process up and hopefully come up with a cheap, viable, easily achievable method/process in which it is not to difficult or expensive to breed these guys.

Dan


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## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

Today was the third day since removing mama from the tank, allowing her to drop eggs and putting her back in the main tank. The zoes that were captured in the water when getting the female seem to be doing fine, but it looks like alot of the eggs have a fungus or mold or something on them. Have you had that happen? I went ahead and moved the zoes to saltwater tonight. I may try the flashlight trick on the main tank tonight just to see if there are any that haven't been eaten. Will try and update tomorrow if there's anything worth mentioning


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Stacy1 said:


> Today was the third day since removing mama from the tank, allowing her to drop eggs and putting her back in the main tank. The zoes that were captured in the water when getting the female seem to be doing fine, but it looks like alot of the eggs have a fungus or mold or something on them. Have you had that happen? I went ahead and moved the zoes to saltwater tonight. I may try the flashlight trick on the main tank tonight just to see if there are any that haven't been eaten. Will try and update tomorrow if there's anything worth mentioning


I have not had any of my females drop the eggs, all have been hatched right off her swimmerets. After hatching there is what looks to be grey fuzzy pieces that do resemble food with fungus left after hatching that I assume to be the protective shell or membrane that sticks them to the swimmerets (but I cannot say for certain) I will try to find this out. However if she has physically dropped the eggs I would say its unlikely that they would hatch. I remember reading somewhere that if overly stressed they may drop the eggs but have never seen it personally. 

Thanks for the update  Keep them coming if you don't mind.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Dropped eggs can still hatch. Easiest setup to hatch said eggs is to use a brine shrimp tumbler. It can be as simple as an airline tube on an upside down 2 liter coke bottle with the bottom cut off! But you want a gentle flow if possible. (not a jacuzzi style jet stream) Just enough that the eggs get tumbled.

@Dman911 I started gathering zoes on June 9th. I've gathered less than 15 in those 11 days.... most of which was when I first started seeing them. Female is still very much berried. I want to say that she became berried around the time your first female started hatching hers... so mine has been berried for about a month now. I only have 1 female, so this makes things a bit harder for me... to top it off, not having good luck with the zoes I have gathered, either... I know there is at least 1 still alive.



I would honestly have better luck catching cherry shrimp, since they are also attracted to the light.... not necessarily the same as the zoes, but they clearly swim towards it!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Dropped eggs can still hatch. Easiest setup to hatch said eggs is to use a brine shrimp tumbler. It can be as simple as an airline tube on an upside down 2 liter coke bottle with the bottom cut off! But you want a gentle flow if possible. (not a jacuzzi style jet stream) Just enough that the eggs get tumbled.
> 
> 
> @Dman911 I started gathering zoes on June 9th. I've gathered less than 15 in those 11 days.... most of which was when I first started seeing them. Female is still very much berried. I want to say that she became berried around the time your first female started hatching hers... so mine has been berried for about a month now. I only have 1 female, so this makes things a bit harder for me... to top it off, not having good luck with the zoes I have gathered, either... I know there is at least 1 still alive.
> ...


Good to know about the eggs. I have used the tumbler when breeding fish in the past and its nice to know it will work with shrimp also incase I run into this issue. I want to say I read somewhere ideal temps are 75F/24C and higher temps actually slowed the growth rate of the zoes. Maybe its possible this is what happening with the egg development? If your salinity is 34ppt ish that's the only other thing I can think of other than I have no idea what was used to reach that salinity. I used "Instant ocean" brand. Also I have read that the introduction of zooplankton and other phytoplankton consuming creatures could have an effect on survival by out competing for food, although I doubt this is the case if the zoes are under 8 days I would not rule out the added inhabitants as contributing to mortalities after that. I have also noticed a decline in my number of zoes in the second batch past day 10, by that there seems to be about half the population that have almost not grown and I will expect them not to make it but we will see. I can only speculate as to the reason for lack of development but have several thing I have written down to try in the future. None the less my overall number of what look like healthy zoes is definitely higher in the second batch although the grow rate seems a bit slower.

If I were to speculate it would be temperature related but that isn't even an educated guess, more like an uneducated guess.

Added:

I have also noticed since keeping the water much clearer on the second batch post 8 days that they are far more capable at fighting current created by the airflow than I previously thought (if you remember I upped my airflow because of concerns about oxygen levels in my first batch when the phytoplankton took over the tank). I will take a video of the amount of airflow I'm using as it may be crucial to keep them suspended much like you just talked about with the eggs. If they sit on the bottom and do not have enough flow to tumble them they will develop fungus.

Also I have done several 95% water changes on both the first and second batch now and can strongly suggest this has no effect on survival rates. The water changes were done with the exact same salinity (tested with a refractometer) and keeping the temps identical (placing my 1 gal jug in the same reservoir I use for the zoe containers) and aerating for 24 hrs before doing the water change) The changes were done by syphoning out as much water as possible using airline and an air stone to prevent sucking up the zoes and then just pouring the water from the 1 gallon into the zoes container. I no longer syphon water back in through the airline which saves me a lot of time.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I definitely think heat could be an issue which is why I'd like to use a larger tank!


I haven't used any of my salt yet, but I do have Instant Ocean Sea Salt.


The saltwater I'm using was from an aged and cycled tank from someone else, although they might have been using Instant Ocean as well? (they were kind of in the middle of switching brands or types of salt)


I've only used Phyto-Feast, so no zooplankton. As such, the only inhabitants would be the zoes. I don't recall you mentioning what phytoplankton you purchased?



I've got a bunch of cherry shrimp and hornwort currently sitting in another gallon pitcher, and I need to separate the shrimp from the plants, then attempt to kill the algae growing on the hornwort without killing the hornwort in the process. That's a separate project... lol Well, one of many others which requires pulling out and cleaning tanks in storage.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I definitely think heat could be an issue which is why I'd like to use a larger tank!
> 
> 
> I haven't used any of my salt yet, but I do have Instant Ocean Sea Salt.
> ...


I haven't the slightest clue as to the type of phytoplankton I have. I know there has been some speculation that this may play a role and there are literally thousands of different species. I bought mine from a LFS and he cultures it and sells it... no label...no info. But I will call him tomorrow and ask as I'm sure he could give me some info on it. He also uses it to feed zooplankton to raise for sea horses he is starting/started attempting to breed. So I would hope he has a good idea and I can get back to you on that. It definitely was brought in from somewhere because I live in the middle of Canada and hopefully he will remember. If you would like I could possibly culture some and send it if I can't get the info. I need to talk to him anyways to find out what's all involved in shipping shrimp/plants etc. across the US border.

Hope all goes well with the hornwort.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

@Zoidburg take a look at page 2 post #29 may be the answer to your zoe issue (I don't know how much weight I would give that but might be considered as there are also reference to possibly small differences in salinity). I seen this post a while back but never paid much attention to it. I was combing through to see if I could find a phytoplankton culture recommended from a successful attempt. Still looking around for a reference on it but also notice post #28 his temps are about 72F. I am assuming his started morphing around day 28-30 ish from reading the thread, slightly longer than mine in the same salinity. I am assuming this may be temp related as I would have to look up where I found that suggested 75F was the ideal temp for raising zoes and possibly going above or below would have an impact on the development time.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/breeding-amano-yamato-shrimp.23504/page-2

Added: One recommended was Dunalliela Salina (From a brief read on it, its actually red algae?) will look more tomorrow and see if I can find out the type I have. I also was very surprised at the similarity of observations along the way in the thread above.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I've gotten phytoplankton before and cultured it, but then there was a long lapse where there weren't any babies or eggs and I didn't keep up with the culture. Got it from Florida Aqua Farms. That was when I was mixing the Instant Ocean salts but didn't have the refractometer. It may be easier to find some more here, if need be, rather than trying to go through the hassle of figuring out border laws. 


Since I didn't have a refractometer, I figured it might be better to get "used" saltwater rather than "new" stuff. As it turns out (and I just found this out), the saltwater from the LFS (which was the other option) would have basically been a mix of salt and tap water, not RO water... unless their RO system was cleaner back then.


Since I've got the refractometer now, I can start mixing up the salt and RO water! 


Even with A/C on though, it's hard to get room temp below mid 70's. Need to resort to frozen water bottles.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I've gotten phytoplankton before and cultured it, but then there was a long lapse where there weren't any babies or eggs and I didn't keep up with the culture. Got it from Florida Aqua Farms. That was when I was mixing the Instant Ocean salts but didn't have the refractometer. It may be easier to find some more here, if need be, rather than trying to go through the hassle of figuring out border laws.
> 
> 
> Since I didn't have a refractometer, I figured it might be better to get "used" saltwater rather than "new" stuff. As it turns out (and I just found this out), the saltwater from the LFS (which was the other option) would have basically been a mix of salt and tap water, not RO water... unless their RO system was cleaner back then.
> ...


definitely an added challenge. I would say using fans might help for a few degrees but then you increase evaporation and could have salinity issues.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Which is why I'm leaning towards the idea of using frozen bottles of water instead.  Have two glass tops for a 10g that I can use to reduce evaporation!


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## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

I apologize for not stating my zoey setup earlier. Everything is looking today like it did yesterday. No new reports. Setup is 10gal tank, bare bottom, half full.
34 salinity measured by refractometer. 
No heater and temp is 71 degrees give or take a lil
instant ocean is salt used and water is ro/di


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

So I spoke with my LFS and he does not remember the species of phytoplankton that it is but he offered an opinion that any phytoplankton should work. I also found out about import/export of plants, shrimp and fish. There is a permit that cost roughly $400 for each shipment which is nothing to major suppliers as there is no limit on quantities but sure not worth it to the average Joe like me. He also agreed to purchase all my shrimp on an ongoing basis for a reasonable price so I will probably ramp things up a bit.

The 3rd batch of zoes that started hatching yesterday are totaling about 10 now (not even close to the number I had expected in that time). Also this time I put the females (in the 3.3L containers) in the hatching reservoir which receives 24hr light so I will keep paying attention to see if this is making a difference (positive or negative). I have decided its probably best to start moving them to saltwater daily to try and verify if this has an effect on what appears is happening in the second batch with about half of the zoes possibly stunting (this could also be due to the difference in time of hatching). Just to see if that plays a factor in it. The first batch are growing well and I'm curious to see how long it take for them to grow to 1" at this rate I'm guessing about 1-1.5 months.

Added: attached a video of my air flow. Its quite a bit more vigorous than other setups I have seen. I may be tweaking here and there but this is roughly what it has been since I upped it with the first batch.






Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

It's generally not recommended to have fast oxygen like that (especially in large bubbles, but you have an airstone) as there's concern that the zoes could get caught up in the bubbles and get hurt, but hey, if it's working for you, don't change a thing!


I picked up an air stone bar to place in a 10g once I've got one set up. That way, hopefully there will be more flow of water and more evenly distributed oxygen to the water.


I have read that people have had great success with certain phytoplanktons but some use a mixture because they are different sizes. Plan to do some shopping around later and see what I can come up with. Don't really have people selling 'home-grown' phytoplankton here. (like what your store carries)


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## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

Do you remember what the permit is thats 400?! Thats ridiculous per shipment of anything. I've imported plants and fish and never had to pay anything like that. For plant imports you are required to buy what is called a phytosanitary certification or something like that and the price usually ranges anywhere from 20-50.00 depending on who you're buying from. For fish, you usually have to use a transhipper as a middle man. There's five or six in the US and the seller ships the fish to the transhipper then you pay him to ship the fish to you. I believe they have to have some sort of license or permit, but price is very reasonable. Usually a few bucks per fish on small orders plus the regular cost of shipping for express or priority. Ive never imported shrimp so I'm not sure what all is involved with those


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> It's generally not recommended to have fast oxygen like that (especially in large bubbles, but you have an airstone) as there's concern that the zoes could get caught up in the bubbles and get hurt, but hey, if it's working for you, don't change a thing!
> 
> 
> I picked up an air stone bar to place in a 10g once I've got one set up. That way, hopefully there will be more flow of water and more evenly distributed oxygen to the water.
> ...


Yeah the air seems to be working for me although I could probably dial it back a bit I think I will hold of changing for a while to be able to see if the impact of other changes is affecting things and in what why. If I change it now it would be harder to say for certain. I'm thinking if the phytoplankton is constantly reproducing would it not have different sizes during its life cycle? IDK but I have read the same thing as you on that.

Dan

Bump:


Stacy1 said:


> Do you remember what the permit is thats 400?! Thats ridiculous per shipment of anything. I've imported plants and fish and never had to pay anything like that. For plant imports you are required to buy what is called a phytosanitary certification or something like that and the price usually ranges anywhere from 20-50.00 depending on who you're buying from. For fish, you usually have to use a transhipper as a middle man. There's five or six in the US and the seller ships the fish to the transhipper then you pay him to ship the fish to you. I believe they have to have some sort of license or permit, but price is very reasonable. Usually a few bucks per fish on small orders plus the regular cost of shipping for express or priority. Ive never imported shrimp so I'm not sure what all is involved with those


Its a Canadian permit for import, I don't remember the name and I would assume much like you talked about there are people/brokers that import several things under 1 permit and charge a small fee. Maybe I should look into something like that thanks for the tip.

Power was just out for 3 hrs. had a bad storm here hoping all my zoes are ok.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

So just collected more zoes from the holding container of the 3rd berried amano. I pulled about 20-30 more and placed into saltwater totaling 30-40 ish and looking at the female the is 0 visible decline in the amount eggs she is carrying and without using a flashlight I would honestly have had no idea. I'm going to keep an eye on this an the length of time it take them to all hatch under the conditions I'm using. 

I thought I should clarify why I am keeping the berried females in the holding reservoir under 24 hr light when all other recommendations I have read agree that the females should be placed in darkness for hatching and given hiding spots. While I agree with others that this may provide more comfort and less chance to drop the eggs of the berried female, the same people report 24hr light in necessary for the zoes or they for unknown reasons to me die. So I wanted to test and see if this would have an effect on the survival rates of the zoes and total amount of live zoes captured while also testing if it truly affects the hatch rate of the females rather than being in darkness or having a period of darkness. Many people report 200-300 zoes from a hatch yet all scientific data points to hatches as high as 3000-4000 and I'm wondering if some of these losses or lower yields are due to the darkness or period of darkness provided for the female during hatching and not just the eggs produced.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Another thing to consider.... people who feel like their amanos are holding for too long, when they did a water change, they had zoes the next day!


Can't help but wonder if they are somehow in tune with nature, and fresh water (i.e. rain aka "water change") could trigger a hatch so that the zoes can safely make it to the ocean when there is enough current.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Another thing to consider.... people who feel like their amanos are holding for too long, when they did a water change, they had zoes the next day!
> 
> 
> Can't help but wonder if they are somehow in tune with nature, and fresh water (i.e. rain aka "water change") could trigger a hatch so that the zoes can safely make it to the ocean when there is enough current.


Very good point! I have seen this countless times in breeding behavior of fish. What's not to say there are similar triggers in hatching.

Dan


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

The water change may be something to consider!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*21 day old Zoes 2nd batch*

So at 21 days into the second batch there are a couple morphs that are still red so I am assuming if things stay status quo tomorrow or the day after I will start transferring the second batch of zoes back into freshwater. I don't even know how I can count this batch as there are substantially more until I transfer them all and just count by the day as I remove them. However I am expecting well over 100.

I have had maybe 3-4 more zoes over the last 2 days on the 3rd batch. I'm thinking the 24 hr light may be affecting the hatching but not going to cave on this and will wait till there are no eggs on her swimmerets to make any judgement.

Here is a video that will give you an idea of the yield from the 2nd batch.






Dan


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Looks like you have it down pretty good. Am sure your LFS is going to be loving you with all of the amano you will be bringing in. Would love to take some off your hands. Too bad the shipping is so outrageous. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

Wow! That's really impressive, I'm glad you've had such good luck! This is one of the coolest threads I've ever had the pleasure of reading, thanks for continuing to update


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*11 days in freshwater*

Video of shrimp 11 days in freshwater they have grown quite well so far. That's is a heater cable they are on for reference.






Also the 3rd female finished hatching and the numbers are somewhere between the first batch and second batch. I'm feeling the best method of harvesting the zoes is to let them all hatch then remove the female and using an air stone and air line, syphon almost all the water out and refill with 34ppt salt water. I cannot say for certain but I do feel 24hr light slowed the hatching process and will try to verify this on my 5th batch. It took 6 days for the female to hatch the zoes.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Great videos! Love to see just how tiny the newly morphed amano shrimp are! 


I think I'm around 40 days now (or just shy of it?) with the female here, eggs still haven't hatched... haven't seen any more zoes and the ones I had didn't make it...


Will probably be moving everyone around soon as the tank they are currently in will be getting re-done.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Great videos! Love to see just how tiny the newly morphed amano shrimp are!
> 
> 
> I think I'm around 40 days now (or just shy of it?) with the female here, eggs still haven't hatched... haven't seen any more zoes and the ones I had didn't make it...
> ...


I'm wondering if its temperature or Amano shrimp collected from different regions have somewhat evolved differently? IDK but my females with a temp of 75F hatch out around 22-23 days. I wonder if my GH/KH and PH have anything to do with that.... hmmm my GH is 4 and KH 0.75-1 PH fluctuates from 6.8 without Co2 to below 6 but I can't test lower than 6 but I assume about 5.9 ish. I don't think the PH fluctuation plays into it at all as I have removed them at different times and they always seem to hatch about the same time with or without Co2. GH/KH however may play a role as it also does with substrate spawners. 

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I do think there is a chance that amanos gathered from different areas could result in a change of salinity for raising the zoe, but not sure on temps?

The thermometers on the tanks are reading about 78° right now, and they are both different styles. (one glass/plastic type with red liquid, the other a sticker on the outside of the tank).


pH 8.2
GH 8
KH 6.25?


When I redo the tank, I am planning on doing RO water with GH+ and using some soil to buffer the pH down.



I feel like we need a thorough "analysis" of all the tank setups where people have successfully raised amanos. Everything from what the adults are kept in, to the zoes, what salts are used, at what temperatures, what foods are used, etc.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I do think there is a chance that amanos gathered from different areas could result in a change of salinity for raising the zoe, but not sure on temps?
> 
> The thermometers on the tanks are reading about 78° right now, and they are both different styles. (one glass/plastic type with red liquid, the other a sticker on the outside of the tank).
> 
> ...


Could not agree more. Looking at your parameters I'm kinda leaning towards KH/PH possibly being an important factor for the egg development which could affect the initial health of the zoes. 

OK getting to far ahead of myself here but yes I will test all my parameters of all tanks used this weekend and post them. My breeding Amanos are in ADA Amazonia and I use water from there to fill and change the water of the holding containers with the females until they hatch out.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I don't have ADA, but I did plan on using Controsoil in an AC30 and see how well it does lowering the pH and keeping it lowered.

I've already had some zoes hatch, as mentioned previously, but the main hatch has yet to occur.



I think we need a shrimp lab with thousands of amanos and hundreds of different water parameters! lol


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> I don't have ADA, but I did plan on using Controsoil in an AC30 and see how well it does lowering the pH and keeping it lowered.
> 
> I've already had some zoes hatch, as mentioned previously, but the main hatch has yet to occur.
> 
> ...


Oh if only we could only do that lol. I'm confident we will make some real progress on this if we keep at it. I will probably own more Tupperware then most dollars stores by the time we get this all figured out but it will sure be worth it. I wonder what my friends and family will say when I request Tupperware for birthdays and Christmas.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

OK @Zoidburg tests are in. I didn't test the zoes containers because its nothing more than Instant Ocean with RO mixed to 34ppt. 

Main tank55g/Female hatching containers 3.3L (right before Co2)

Temp:75F
Lights: 10hrs
PH: 7
GH: 3
KH: 1
Ca:10-20ppm
No3: 10ppm
Po4: 0.5ppm

Grow out tank:

Temp: 76F
Lights:10 hrs
PH: 7.5
GH: 7.5
KH: 2.5
Ca: 20-30ppm

I have 44 morphed from the second batch and looks to be over 100 still to go. 3rd and 4th batch are coming along well and have only seen 1-2 losses due to surface tension or possibly higher aeration. I have lowered the aeration to about half what it shows in the video.

Here is a video of one of the larger ones approaching 3/4" at 17 days in freshwater. 




Dan


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## KarenSoCal (Jun 3, 2016)

What a joy to see those little Amanos! You've actually done the nearly impossible!!

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

KarenSoCal said:


> What a joy to see those little Amanos! You've actually done the nearly impossible!!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk



Thanks am still working out some things and hoping to find out all the keys to breeding them over time. I don't seem to be having issues between batches likes others report but that could change in a moment.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Basically a week later, still no zoes... lol


Female amano still very 'fat'... I plan on trying to work on getting everyone moved around so I can redo the tank the amanos are in, or at least get the process started since I keep putting it off!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Basically a week later, still no zoes... lol
> 
> 
> Female amano still very 'fat'... I plan on trying to work on getting everyone moved around so I can redo the tank the amanos are in, or at least get the process started since I keep putting it off!


Lol I am the biggest procrastinator I know how that works. Have you checked with a light? for the first 4 days with my last 2 females you could not visibly see any difference in the amount of eggs. day 5 and 6 you could easily see. In the first 4 days I pulled approx. 50+ zoes that I would have never noticed. It almost seems like the eggs (shell/outer layer) stay stuck to her after hatching for a while and are grey in color.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Yup... for ease, I just take the entire light off the top of the aquarium and place it on the side. Generally speaking, it works better than using a flash light!


Can't believe how big your first batch of zoes are getting though!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*4 day vs 18 day growth comparison (in freshwater)*

These videos will give an idea of the growth rate over 2 weeks (14 days) after introduction to freshwater.











Bahaha! It worked. Thanks @burr740 for the tip in another thread. I told you I was a silent stalker lol

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Should probably update.... I transferred the inhabitants of the 30g (kuhli loaches and amanos) into a smaller holding tank on Tuesday night. (different water parameters) Wednesday morning, the tank was full of zoes! I suctioned them out using an airline hose and put into a temporary 1 gallon pitcher. What ones I didn't manage to get perished. 

Saturday, I transferred the zoes over to 34ppm saltwater (5 gallons in 10g tank - what the loaches and adult amanos were previously in). Many did not survive the few days in freshwater, but many did make the transition to saltwater.

Since I have Phyto-feast, Spirulina and Golden Pearls for food, well, I don't really have any high hopes of any of them making it. Will see...



When I went to transfer them from freshwater to saltwater, I took an airline hose and put an air-stone on one end. I then put that into the water the zoes were in and created a siphon out into another container. Practically removed all the water... Rinsed the pitcher in the saltwater to remove the zoes from the bottom of the pitcher. Not sure how many zoes are alive, it's hard to count how many, but there are many, so far!



I really feel like there's got to be some way for the babies to sense when it is the best time to hatch, like some fish species.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Should probably update.... I transferred the inhabitants of the 30g (kuhli loaches and amanos) into a smaller holding tank on Tuesday night. (different water parameters) Wednesday morning, the tank was full of zoes! I suctioned them out using an airline hose and put into a temporary 1 gallon pitcher. What ones I didn't manage to get perished.
> 
> Saturday, I transferred the zoes over to 34ppm saltwater (5 gallons in 10g tank - what the loaches and adult amanos were previously in). Many did not survive the few days in freshwater, but many did make the transition to saltwater.
> 
> ...


Was the water you changed to softer? I Can't help but still wonder if harder water toughens the shell of the eggs making the hatch time longer and going off of the speculation that they feed off an egg sack or nutrients stored for the first 8-9 days this would have an effect on the survival of the zoes initially. Assuming they continue to develop and consume the stored nutrients or egg sack before hatching? 

Just a shot in the dark.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Dman911 said:


> Was the water you changed to softer? I Can't help but still wonder if harder water toughens the shell of the eggs making the hatch time longer and going off of the speculation that they feed off an egg sack or nutrients stored for the first 8-9 days this would have an effect on the survival of the zoes initially. Assuming they continue to develop and consume the stored nutrients or egg sack before hatching?
> 
> Just a shot in the dark.
> 
> Dan


Yes, it was softer, although I wouldn't think this would be an issue. They may live in streams that are naturally soft to begin with, due to rain. A large enough water change at cooler temps and/or with softer water could result in the release of offspring.

That said, maybe shrimp that live higher up in the rivers might release eggs sooner than those that may live near or in brackish like conditions? Granted, I doubt it'd take very many days for the zoe to reach the ocean from wherever they may be in the rivers or streams.



I can't say they are doing too well... thought I'd be losing all my shrimp last night due to someone putting something toxic into the air (*ALL* shrimp affected - cherries, BM's, YKK's, amanos...). I have an idea of what might have caused it, but don't know for sure... I just know that the most casualties probably occurred with newborn shrimp around 2 weeks or younger? All the adults who appeared dead and lifeless (even unresponsive when you poked them... male amano was a living/dead zombie... kept "coming alive" and "dying" again... seems to be okay now?) came back to life a while later. Although I do see cherry babies, and several of them, the amount seems less. I'm having an even harder time finding the entire generation of YKK offspring from two females... there's at least one.

Which leads up to the zoes... they aren't swimming through the water column atm, but rather staying at the bottom of the tank, which is concerning. They'll wriggle if you turn the light off and shine a flashlight, but for the most part, still aren't swimming towards the light... I know there are still several in there that are alive, but not holding high hopes for these guys... :frown2:


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

@Zoidburg have you done water changes and/or could you run carbon or purigen or something to remove any remaining toxin? It might help... So sorry you're dealing with this!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Zoidburg said:


> Yes, it was softer, although I wouldn't think this would be an issue. They may live in streams that are naturally soft to begin with, due to rain. A large enough water change at cooler temps and/or with softer water could result in the release of offspring.
> 
> That said, maybe shrimp that live higher up in the rivers might release eggs sooner than those that may live near or in brackish like conditions? Granted, I doubt it'd take very many days for the zoe to reach the ocean from wherever they may be in the rivers or streams.
> 
> ...


Ouch this is terrible news. I hope the losses keep to a minimum. Zoes would be the least of my worries but I'm hoping some pull through for you and all the others bounce back. Sorry for your losses I know you work hard at them.

Dan


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Down 2 YKK's, which appeared fine earlier... possibly a berried cherry going on her way out, too.... going to see about 'stirring up' the zoes... I did turn up the air momentarily, didn't seem to do too much...

@geisterwald I was actually running carbon in one tank prior to this incident starting... I had dosed the tank with meds, then used the carbon. This tank in particular is the easiest for using carbon since it has a HOB. The others? Not so much... Still doable, just have to rig something up...

I have done 50% or larger water changes on all tanks with inhabits (3 tanks - not counting zoes... didn't actually have water 'ready' for them), which left 3 other tanks untouched. Water changes didn't seem to help, and well, I didn't get any sleep last night. I used tap water with Shrimp Lab GH+ and matched the TDS of the new water to the tanks, or at least pretty close.


Although losses have been "minimal" (except for zoes, hard to tell, and well, that's to be expected regardless...), it still feels like a huge blow...


The fish, what little I can see of them, appear fine.... 


Do plan on getting more adult amanos at least, once the 30 is redone... still working on getting rid of the pests... hopefully, I'll be able to share some good news in regards to some zoes! Just might have to wait until the next batch?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Well another female is berried so about 17 days until batch 5 will start hatching but this morning I found my other female Amano had escaped the tank and I found here on the floor dead. I attribute this to to my carelessness as if you have ever seen my tank shrimp have easy access to escape via my waterfall. I usually keep a 4" strip of glass over that area to prevent this but after changing the water yesterday I forgot to put it back. Lesson learned and my breeding females just took a 50% cut.

On the other hand some of the 1st batch are reaching 1" and I hoping they will be of breeding age in about 5-6 months from now.

Added: Semi good news after all day my fiancee found the other female in the tank and it must have been a male that decided to go for a stroll. I was sure it was my female after looking forever and not being able to see her. 

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Interesting Test results*

So exactly 24hrs ago I put 6 newly morphed shrimp directly from 34ppt into pure freshwater. 3 of the newly morphed shrimp were still redish/pinkish in color and the other 3 from the day before were absolutely clear in color. Both groups were no longer attracted to light. When checked with a light source none of the 6 turned the tail portion towards the light. I checked this several times over 20 mins to ensure this was the case. 24hrs later all 3 of the clear shrimp were absolutely normal, cruising around the container and very active. 2 of the pinkish shrimp had perished and 1 remains slowly twitching here and there but I am certain he will not last.

Although this is a very small sample size I will continue to test this further only using fully clear morphs and placing them directing into freshwater to see if there are any moralities. I am also wondering if deaths of shrimp reported by others during the acclimation of the shrimp back to freshwater had to do with the stage at which the shrimp were at. I think its quite possible that morphed shrimp once completely clear and losing their pinkish color can be placed directly into freshwater. I also have left newly morphed shrimp in 34ppt water for 3 days after morph with no losses and will continue to test this in small numbers until I see moralities then I will test both on a larger scale to ensure accuracy.

Added: For reference the freshwater I'm using is 2ppt R/O mix with instant ocean. I will be testing with the grow out tank water (parameters listed in previous post) in the future if it appears the 2ppt which I would consider freshwater produces no losses.

Up to over 120 shrimp now just for reference.

Dan


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

I just wanted to say, I've recently decided to attempt this myself and am enormously grateful for your thread. It has been the most insightful and informative find on the subject. Thank you for documenting everything so thoroughly! I will let you know if I have successes as I go through this as well. I'm just getting finally getting all my materials gathered and will be setting up in the next week or so. 

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfsamm said:


> I just wanted to say, I've recently decided to attempt this myself and am enormously grateful for your thread. It has been the most insightful and informative find on the subject. Thank you for documenting everything so thoroughly! I will let you know if I have successes as I go through this as well. I'm just getting finally getting all my materials gathered and will be setting up in the next week or so.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


Glad you found it informative. Its been great for me too especially with all the additional help and info that others have contributed to help me succeed. It would be great if you could post your setup and information here as you go to help compare notes and get some good collective data that can be confirmed by people who are attempting. I'm hoping between all attempting to breed these we can make some real progress on what works and what doesn't and why.

Wishing you luck and if you have any questions or advice please share.

Dan


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## sfsamm (Apr 3, 2017)

Absolutely I will. I'm starting with a very different set of water parameters so I'll reserve from posting anything specific just yet. But if you have advice on getting the phytoplankton started please feel free to pm me! Otherwise I'm actually documenting elsewhere for now to track everything but will update here how each attempt works.  

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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

sfsamm said:


> Absolutely I will. I'm starting with a very different set of water parameters so I'll reserve from posting anything specific just yet. But if you have advice on getting the phytoplankton started please feel free to pm me! Otherwise I'm actually documenting elsewhere for now to track everything but will update here how each attempt works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


My first attempt at phytoplankton was kinda messed up I added way to much ferts and ended up having hi ammonia in my zoe tank. The next batch was good I used 4L of 34ppt water with vigorous aeration and 2 drops of miracle grow 16hrs light a day 8hrs complete darkness. Worked great for me.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Well my first failed batch has come. I was checking my zoes tonight and my 4th batch has almost completely wiped out. Yesterday I did a 50% water change and they were fine. I did it with water that I didn't equalize the temp I would say there was approx 8-10F difference in temp after taking temps on the water today. Now this also comes at day 11 after the last hatch and I had not yet fed any golden pearls. I am assuming I shocked them with the temp change but with the time frame about the 8-10 day range I am not ruling out anything else and will probably never know. Lesson learned only about 10-15 zoes left in 4th batch. 

3rd batch is going very strong just like the second and at day 17 of the last hatch I have one freak of nature that has morphed and is already clear, although over a 6 day hatch it could put it at day 23 still early in my opinion.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

*Amano's Everywhere*

Figured I would do a quick vid to show the growth and numbers. Sure doesn't look like 120 but there is a lot that are still very tiny.






Dan


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

This is just awesome seeing this how much they have grown and all. Super good job Dman911. Those guys and gals look great. Good job.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Just received this link from a friend... all my zoes are gone, so not of any use to me right now....


https://www.facebook.com/silaneshrimp/posts/1501810563190757


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## guvmarley (Oct 3, 2015)

Such good information here. I just noticed one of my amano is berried and I'm going to try this out!


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## benstatic (Oct 15, 2017)

This is pretty cool guys..

I have a 20 gal fishless reef tank I might be tempted to try this out (SG = 1.025 / 33 ppt)... A couple of my corals might enjoy eating them, but some might survive.
My only curiosity is how well the little zoes would do with the water circulation in that reef tank (no skimmer or filtration, just circulation pumps to keep water moving), but it seems like temperature would be good (76). There is lots of algae on the live rock to eat, diatoms in the sand bed and possibly plankton floating in the water column that I cannot see.

Not to simplify the great work you guys have done, but I wanted to summarize what I think i've read in this thread:
Mating happens
Separate the female / put in a jar
let her hatch the eggs and dump her back in your FW tank.
dump the newly hatch zoes in SW
let em float around / eat diatoms / phyto for ~3-4 weeks? (not sure I see good / clear timelines in this thread) or "until they become red"?
Transition them back to FW (some expiriments with straight dumping them into FW are being done)
Done..

I guess one challenge a reef aquarium might have is the amount of available hiding places in the live rock - not to mention the LR life that would maybe enjoy eating them.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

You can certainly give it a shot and report back...

There is no exact time-line as to when they morph into miniature adults, since it varies - even if they all hatched at the same time. You just have to watch for forward swimming rather than vertical swimming. Also, they might not do much "hiding" as they're free floating zoes. Some, or many, would definitely end up as food.


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## shrimpboy112 (Jul 18, 2019)

Maybe anybody can give me a good tip. I have the biggest struggle to get the zoes out of the freshwater to dump into the saltwater. I don't want to add the freshwater to the saltwater, so I'm trying to filter them out.

The current method I'm using: I get a bright light (flashlight on the phone) see a little movement but not much, try to suck them with injection. Shoot them through a sieve and then put the sieve in the saltwater.

Does anybody have a tip? I've got a buried shrimp that can release any moment  would like to give it another go.

Cheers!

Shrimpboy.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

shrimpboy112 said:


> Maybe anybody can give me a good tip. I have the biggest struggle to get the zoes out of the freshwater to dump into the saltwater. I don't want to add the freshwater to the saltwater, so I'm trying to filter them out.
> 
> The current method I'm using: I get a bright light (flashlight on the phone) see a little movement but not much, try to suck them with injection. Shoot them through a sieve and then put the sieve in the saltwater.
> 
> ...


There was a whole thread created for breeding amanos recently, have a look for it and give it a read through. It is in this same section, shrimp and inverts.
Good luck!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

shrimpboy112 said:


> Maybe anybody can give me a good tip. I have the biggest struggle to get the zoes out of the freshwater to dump into the saltwater. I don't want to add the freshwater to the saltwater, so I'm trying to filter them out.
> 
> The current method I'm using: I get a bright light (flashlight on the phone) see a little movement but not much, try to suck them with injection. Shoot them through a sieve and then put the sieve in the saltwater.
> 
> ...


Better to move the berried female to a smaller container before she releases the zoes than trying to collect them after.


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