# End of tank dump. CO2 disaster.



## KrazyFish (Dec 23, 2010)

Man thats sucks - sorry to hear.

I am not %100 sure the reason for this but I beleive it is entirely the fault of the regulator - I don't know for sure but I think for lower end systems it may happen when the tank pressure falls below the working pressure - I don't know for sure I am just speculating.

Thankfully it hasn't ever happened with my system but I am interested to hear why it happened on yours.

Again sorry about the loss.


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

Here's the answer: 
EOTD worry warts: Meet your God! LOL @ DIY Regulator

I'm sorry to hear about your disaster! 

My current regulator setup is really overkill, but just adding 1 extra regulator will solve your problem. Here was my first rig:

This is basically a 2 stage regulator. DIY, cheap, and effective








http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting/f/8084_reg_train_minic.jpg


Here's my current setup, a 3 stage DIY train. It guarantees that the output pressure will remain extremely stable








http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting/f/9113_EOTD3c.jpg


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The Azoo regulator is a single, not two stage regulator. Single stage regulators tend to have the set pressure go up as the inlet pressure goes down. With a well designed regulator the effect isn't enough to do much harm. But, cheap regulators can have the outlet pressure go up enough to cause a large increase in bubble rate. This is only a problem if your bubble rate is near the maximum you can use without gassing the fish. And some people have found that the increase in outlet pressure, percentage-wise, is far greater at low output pressure settings than at high output settings.

If you use a 30 psi output pressure, you are less likely to have a problem than if you use a 10 psi setting. If you run the bubble rate well below that which gasses the fish, you are less likely to have a problem. And, if you check the regulator input pressure every day, and as it starts dropping, check the output pressure and readjust as necessary 2-3 times a day, you are unlikely to have a problem


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

a well built single stage regulator will work fine. i've run out 5 times now and have no gassed fishies
i run 15 psi and a pretty decent bubble count on my 29 gallon as i cannot count fast enough
fish are very close to stressed levels and when the tank empties i go up a little less than 1 psi


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Unfortunately this isn't something I can check constantly as the system is set up at my exgirlfriends house so I typically only get over there a few times a week to make sure everything is fine. We still get along good luckily but going over there everyday to adjust and readjust the co2 regulator doesn't seem like an option.

So basically the regulator I have is a piece of crap and, besides myself, is responsible for this? I do adjust the needle valve on it a lot as the output never seems to be or stay that consistent but just starting I thought the regulator and the tank for 70 bucks I did alright. 

I take it with a better dual stage regulator that this doesn't happen then?

Any suggestions on a better regulator if that is the case?

I know they can get expensive but I literally lost over a hundred dollars in fish and now I'm so paranoid I don't know if I can stock it again and I love keeping fish.

THanks


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## Mk4Gti (Dec 16, 2010)

Well now that all the fish are gone you can get rid of your ex for good and have no reason to ever go over her house again.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Ahh it's not that bad. It's just there until I find my own place as I moved in with my parents while I'm in school and I have a saltwater tank already there. No biggie!

I'm seriously paranoid now though and wondering if I should just spend the money on something better to prevent this from ever happening again.


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

kevinmichael77 said:


> I do adjust the needle valve on it a lot as the output never seems to be or stay that consistent


I suspect EOTD has nothing to do with your fish dying and this is your problem. Once you get your bubble count set, You shouldn't have to adjust your needle valve. A dual stage regulator *or* a good needle valve should prevent EOTD as well.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

you can't go wrong with a good 2 stage regulator.. check into bettatail, maknwar77, and oldpunkd
there are a few others i believe but off the top of my head i know they make them.. ask them their semi-professional opinion 

i have a smith single stage stainless steel regulator and i couldn't be happier but it was just as expensive as a good 2 stage built by people on the forums


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Solid said:


> I suspect EOTD has nothing to do with your fish dying and this is your problem. Once you get your bubble count set, You shouldn't have to adjust your needle valve. A dual stage regulator *or* a good needle valve should prevent EOTD as well.


a needle valve only reduces the flow set by the regulator

if the regulator can't control the PSI comming out of it. you cna't expect the needle valve to do that either


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## tatersalad (Dec 7, 2011)

A good needle valve will solve your problem, you shouldn't have to readjust your bubble count constantly. I had a crappy one when I started out and then I upgraded to a Fabco NV-55, best investment so far.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I know for sure it was EOTD, had just done a wc and all the tests were normal and the C02 tank was clean out. My sisters brother stopped by and earlier he said the fish were at the top gasping but didn't bother to call me until it was too late. Clear sign of c02 poisoning.

Does anyone sell complete dual stage regulators on here with all the bells and whistles that I need? I'm not handy enought to part things out and put em together. Couldn't spend a ton of money but I just can't have this happen again.


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## tatersalad (Dec 7, 2011)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sponsors-power-seller-specials/148226-fs-co2-supplies.html


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

Please Dear God not this needle valve / EOTD argument again!!!!!!! 

We just had a 55 post thread on this very topic 2 weeks ago!!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/168038-preventing-eotd-single-stage.html


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

Firstly, needle valve is completely, totally and utterly irrelevant in this case. Needle valve will not save you from EOD. The needle valve, good or bad, has absolutely no relation to the EOD problem. Getting a "better" needle valve will solve absolutely _nothing_ with regard to EOD problem. It has zero effect on it. Forget about the needle valve and ignore people who attempt to bring it into EOD discussions - they are simply trolling.

Secondly, as it has been said many times before, in a pressurized system with liquid CO2 bottle the pressure on the bottle side will always remain constant regardless of how much liquid CO2 you have left (about 1000 psi at room temp). This means that 

a) trying to determine the amount of the liquid CO2 in the bottle by observing the pressure is totally useless, and
b) the EOD event is always preceded by a noticeable and steady drop in the bottle pressure that begins when all liquid CO2 is gone.

Yes, EOD will happen every time, if your regulator is not specifically designed to prevent it. At which specific pressure point it happens depends on the regulator. However, the fact that EOD is always predicted well in advance (several weeks) by a pressure drop turns EOD in a total non-issue even with simple regulators. Just pay attention to your bottle-side gauge and refill the bottle when it begins to drop. Again: it doesn't matter how low it drops; as soon as it begins to drop, it means it is empty (of liquid CO2). In other words, EOD is really a non-issue. You don't need to replace any valves or regulators, assuming that your existing ones work as they should. All you need is to learn to use your CO2 system properly. The only situation when EOD can become a real issue is when you leave your tank unattended for extended periods of time (vacation, etc.)

In your original message you seem to state that you are using a dual-stage regulator. Dual stage regulator is not supposed to suffer from EOD. Are you sure your regulator is dual-stage? Or did you simply call it "dual-stage" because it has two gauges? AFAIK, Azoo regulators are single-stage. When did you get the idea about your Azoo being dual-stage?


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

The idea came from ignorance. Because it had two gauges I associated that with dual stage but now know that's not the case.
Also I went and got the tank filled this morning and hooked everything up and when I tested it it seemed to be fine yet when I checked later when the timer was supposed to start it literally was barely pushing out any co2, even when I turned it wide open. Not sure what's going on now cause I know it was on for sure. Nothing but bad luck with this tank so far. Guess I'm more of an idiot than originally thought.
Sorry to rant just been a frustrating project so far.


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

What kind of CO2 diffuser are you using?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Unfortunately this isn't something I can check constantly as the system is set up at my exgirlfriends house so I typically only get over there a few times a week to make sure everything is fine. We still get along good luckily but going over there everyday to adjust and readjust the co2 regulator doesn't seem like an option.


Kevin, this isn't really something that needs to be checked _constantly_. The regulator has a high pressure gauge which will clearly tell when CO2 is running out. After filling the CO2 tank, it will stabilize between 700-1000 psi and remain there for as long as there is liquid CO2 in the tank. Once you see it drop, keep a closer eye on it. Depending on how long your tank lasts generally, you should have a couple of weeks until it drops say below 300 psi and should be refilled.

Some regulators don't EOTD, others do. Some run their tanks empty, others run to refill as soon as the needle starts moving. My tank lasts about a year, and once the needle starts to move, I have about 3 weeks left until it really needs to be refilled. At that point there is no liquid CO2 left in the tank, IOW it is pretty much empty. So you are not really saving much in waiting until it is completely empty. 

But it sounds like there are other issues at hand anyway... Keep in mind that it takes a couple of hours for the tank pressure to stabilize after it has been refilled.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm using a inline atomizer but have been thinking about switching it. To what I'm not sure yet.


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> I'm using a inline atomizer but have been thinking about switching it. To what I'm not sure yet.


One version of Azoo regulator that a see sold on the Net (http://www.keecua.com/ofertas/AZOO-CO2-Pressure-Regulator-Magnetic-Valve-Solenoid-NEW-_id_35275) seems to be the exact copy of the old AquaticLife CO2 regulator (see my recent thread here http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/168100-original-aquaticlife-co2-regulator.html). Is that the one you have?

If so, then this is a non-adjustable CO2 regulator that puts out around 30+ psi. This pressure is not sufficient to drive the modern "atomizer" type diffusers. I.e. even if you fully open the needle valve, the working pressure of the regulator is not sufficient to push the gas through the atomizer. Atomizers typically need 40+ psi to work reliably.

This makes this regulator virtually useless in this application. I have the same problem with my AquaticLife regulator. Currently I'm trying to fiddle with its inner workings to try and tune it to a higher working pressure, but a better approach would be to get rid of it and buy a good adjustable regulator.


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## tatersalad (Dec 7, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> I'm using a inline atomizer but have been thinking about switching it. To what I'm not sure yet.


Inline diffuser will take more working preasure to get going. I run mine at 40 psi.


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## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Unfortunately this isn't something I can check constantly as the system is set up at my exgirlfriends house


:iamwithst


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> ...I lost every fish in my tank due to what has to be end of tank dump...
> Thanks


Kevin, 
Hang in there, man, I believe in you.


I'm not getting into EOTD / needle valve discussion (repeat: self-control, self-control, ...)


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

The atomizer seemed to be sufficient with the axiom reg. according to the drop checker the levels seemed to be fine. I could get a good mist out of the spraybar when it was running. Not sure if that means anything.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

tatersalad said:


> A good needle valve will solve your problem, you shouldn't have to readjust your bubble count constantly. I had a crappy one when I started out and then I upgraded to a Fabco NV-55, best investment so far.


Fail.

A better needle will only help with flow consistency. It has NOTHING to do with how your regulator regulates pressure.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

So I think I've decided to have mankwar build this set up.

Victor gpt270 dual stage
Brass cga inlet & nut and fittings
Brass bubble counter
Burkett solenoid
Ideal needle valve

Let me know what ya think. I'm paranoid now and am set on upgrading.


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> So I think I've decided to have mankwar build this set up.
> 
> Victor gpt270 dual stage
> Brass cga inlet & nut and fittings
> ...


Yep! Sounds like a winner!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Hope so. Shoulda just splurged in the beginning but the budget was tight.


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## proaudio55 (Oct 20, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Hope so. Shoulda just splurged in the beginning but the budget was tight.


Hindsight is 20/20! It's just really hard to know when to splurge and when to get the economy grade version. 

From my own experience, I bought a really fancy digital thermometer and a simple in-tank red-alcohol thermometer years ago. That digital one has long since been thrown away but the cheapo glass thermometer is as accurate as the day I brought it home. 

I think you're all set now on the CO2 end now! 

BTW, I think these CO2 poisonings are fairly common. I did that to my tank, twice. Both times it was after I changed the water chemistry fairly drastically. Unbeknownst to me, The plants stopped photosynthisizing while they were getting acclimated. The CO2 kept building up at night and when I woke up, all the fish were on top gasping for air or laying on the bottom. I shut off the CO2, put an air stone in at full blast and waited. After a few hours every single fish perked up and came around. No fatalities, but REALLY close!


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah man I've done it before but never with any fatalities since I babysit them for a few hours after any adjustments. Just really hate that I was responsible doe the death of these awesome fish even I'd if was equipment malfunction there was still ignorance and user error on my part.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

HA i got one for you.
my fish cabinet was not child safety proof. my son yanke the needle valve wide open one day while i was at work
he even told mommy the fish looked scared at one point

i came home to sinkers and floaters
yes i cried
you'll never adjust again without watching. and u'll always check ur tank when u have time.. it becomes second nature


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

Yeah I just haven't been able to find a good balance that why I'm constantly adjusting it. My tank has so much algae everything I read says it's caused by not enough co2. I've adjusted the lights back and forth and can't find the right balance. My tank looks like a green and brown jungle.

I feel your pain on that though! Your poor boy probably felt terrible.
This hobby is getting the best of my patience that's for sure!


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

So is the consensus that when nearing EOTD, the fish die because of a CO2 spike or some other tank "poison?" I ask because I lost 3 amanos (out of my 19) this week after a series of days when I thought they seemed a bit lethargic. Once I found them dead, I quickly did my equipment check and found the CO2 tank was very nearly dry. Come to think of it, I noticed a tiny bloom of BGA near the glass gravel interface that might have been a symptom of CO2 woes too.

The weird thing is that during the entire week, the drop checker remained green (I didn't see it advance to lemon-lime, and certainly not yellow) which is what I would expect if CO2 spiked in the tank. So is there some other EOTD "poison" which killed my shrimp?

BTW, after replacing the tank with a fresh one, the tank (plants, fish, shrimp) have been health and acting normally.

I use a brandless two-dial regulator (purchased at LFS years ago), with a needle valve which feeds a bubble counter before running into a Rex Grigg style DIY PVC reactor..

Will


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## Bluek24a4 (Mar 16, 2010)

I dont think the swiftness of an EOTD would register on a drop checker.


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

kevinmichael77 said:


> Yeah I just haven't been able to find a good balance that why I'm constantly adjusting it. My tank has so much algae everything I read says it's caused by not enough co2. I've adjusted the lights back and forth and can't find the right balance. My tank looks like a green and brown jungle.
> 
> I feel your pain on that though! Your poor boy probably felt terrible.
> This hobby is getting the best of my patience that's for sure!



Kevin, 

Your issues with Algae is not just a lack but inconsistent Co2 levels. For this to really work well you need to have lights, Co2 and Nutrients. Lose balance on one of those and your probably headed to algae city. 

The Set up from Maknwar is top notch. Its very much like one I have I built myself using a Concoa dual stage regulator. Dual stage is nice cause you can use the Co2 tank till its quite empty. No EOTD ever. 

With adjusting your Co2 you mentioned having to tweak it all the time. You should be able to set it watch it for a part of the day.. Say 3 to 4 hours. If your fish are doing good bump it up slightly again.. Watch the fish for a couple hours again and repeat till you see the fish starting to show signs. Then back it down to a safe level. Your good.


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm hoping that's the case, should have the regulator in a few weeks. I've been dosing per the EI recommendations for my tank size and I've pretty much lowered my light as far down as I can, about an average of 17 inches from the substrate. I'm really hoping this upgraded regulator will make a bit of difference or at least add some consistency to my tank.

Right now I've been using an inline atomizer for diffusion but have been thinking about changing that as well.

Any reccomendations on diffusion methods?


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

I prefer using a cerges reactor. Easy to build. Cheap. Dissolves the co2 100%. Tank doesn't look like 7up. Easy to service as well.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I've been using one of these for a few weeks. So far, happy with it. I had some dripping issues initially, used vasoline between hose and adapters to solve this. I'm using metal hose clamps as well.

http://www.amazon.com/Gulfstream-Tr...JEGC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333124801&sr=8-1


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## kevinmichael77 (Dec 5, 2011)

How do you diffuse it into the tank then? I assume it's outside the tank?


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