# A Chocolate Gourami Journal **Vaillianti FRY 9-1-14**



## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Those guys are cool and they match your tank very nice.


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## mattjm20 (Nov 2, 2013)

Those are very cool, I've never seen them at any store, sadly... Ever.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Yeah it was a heck of a search for them. Found them twice before, once they looked horrendous and the other just too pricey considering i wanted at least 3. I would like to eventually get more, wish they had more than these 3 the other day but beggars can't be choosers  

Can anyone share some experiences with these fish? Anyone ever have any luck breeding them? I'd love to hear some input!


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## alienufo (Dec 4, 2013)

I really want some Chocolate Gouramis for my tank! I haven't seen any at the LFS around here, but I've considered trying to get some online.


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## Edub (Mar 23, 2011)

those are some very nice looking fish. good find!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Lovely fish! Wish those were sold around where I live.


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## SmellsFishy (Dec 9, 2013)

Some sick looking fish!


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## Lia (Aug 2, 2007)

Great looking fish, Not a fish you often if ever see for sale unless online and than not often.

Those 3 in particular are great looking.

Perhaps you could breed them.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for all the kind words! I'm actually really hoping to have success breeding these. From what i have read up on them, they are mouth broaders but not easy to breed. This tank is dedicated to these fish alone so i'm going to give it my best try! 

Just in the 3 days i've had them, they are showing courting behaviour. I am feeding them live food and they have been doing a lot of flaring and flashing and coloring up very nicely. I'm just not sure what ratio i have. They are difficult to sex. I have some ideas but dont know a sure fire way to tell (and apparently there isnt until they start courting and/or breed?) I'm hoping someone on here has experience with them and can give me some tips


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I haven't experience with them but do they have the rounded vs. pointed fins to tell gender like dwarf gourami?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Apparently this is a way to tell, but is not fully reliable. I have also read you can tell by the jawline and also the color along the edge of the caudel, but again nothing really consistant. They are really cool to watch flare, i'm pretty sure i have at least one male and one female. The one i cant really tell is the smallest, probably youngest of the 3.

I put in a heater so i can keep it around 78 (only 74 now) and when i put it in, the largest of the 3 came over and flared at the heater. Its funny because everything they do seems to be in slow motion, but they do have a ton of personality. Lights are out for tonight, but i will try and take some video in the morning.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Here's a couple pics of the assumed male flaring at me. And a short video of the 3. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPf7v20Uhps&feature=youtu.be


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Decided to change the title of this journal. I'm not happy with the lack of detailed and consistant info on these fish. I'm really enjoying them and they have some very interesting behaviour i'm noticing but can find no info about. I will be attempting to breed these fish as well and figured it would be fun to document it. 

So i will update as often as i can, still would love to hear some input on these guys from fellow members that have them. There's got to be SOMEONE on here keeping them


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## Lia (Aug 2, 2007)

The 2014 Jan issue of Tropical Fish Hobby mag has a 3 page article on their care ,breeding, etc.

Pages 22 to 24.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

Those are beautiful! I love the pointy noses and little masks... So cute!
I considered some at one point, but all the information I found online seemed to show that they're very delicate. They're absolutely gorgeous... Are they showing any signs of being delicate at all?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Nice find, I have not seen them anywhere and I've been looking for years. All I've read is that they are a challange. I hope you can share your personal experiences with the rest of us.

Please keep the journal going 

v3


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Very nice. Chocolate gouramis are among my favorite fish, and I just set up a tank that will eventually hold a large group of them. I look forward to seeing your progress.

If you have access to TFH back issues there was a detailed article about this species in the December 2003 issue.


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

There's an article on breeding the Chocolate Gourami at aquarticles.com and another article by John Rundle on practicalfishkeeping.co.uk. I really hope you succeed with these fish.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for the tips on info everyone  

As far as them being delicate, yes they are more delicate than most fish BUT...I dont feel as delicate as available info would lead you to believe (knocking on every piece of wood in the house!). 

I only say this because the LFS i got them at only had them a very short time. In fact, when i asked how long they had them i got "honestly, i knew we had them 2 seconds after you asked me about them." SO not much info to be had on where they came from, however they looked great. Healthy, active, and the price couldnt be beat so i had to take them. After about a 30 minute car ride, i drip acclimated them for about 2 hours.

Within an hour of putting them into the tank, they had colored up and i tossed in a few live brine shrimp and they ate immediately. They are no doubt super timid fish, and spook very easily but just in 4 days they are coming out more and more and showing stress colors less and less. 

Now some other interesting factors to note. I feel my params are good, however they in no way match what basically every source of info shows. They are housed in a ten gallon tank. My ph is a neutral 7. GH approx 4-5 KH 3. It is a fully planted tank, driftwood, floaters, neutral substrate with root tabs, and some IALs. Heavily filtered, very low flow, lots of open space. I also have these gouramis only in this tank to minimize stress. They are also in my tank room so its nice and quiet and no one walks by the tanks. 

I feel that these fish should more than be able to tolerate my setup, in fact thats my ultimate goal with these. I want to try and "hardy" up this species. So far they are all active and have eaten every day. They flare and show courting behavior already, and ive only had them 4 days really. They are certainly more of a picky eater than most fish, at least what meets the eye. In my room i have a chair that is front and center to view my rack-o-tanks, so naturally i spend a lot of time in said chair, and what ive noticed is they definitely feed better with live foods often taking them in the water column once they ensure they are moving. But with frozen brine shrimp initially they will go right up and usually not touch them and let them fall to the floor, but as i sit for a while these guys start to hunt and scour the carpet and eat them sitting still. Their eyesite is amazing from what i can tell and they spend most of their time hunting, my guess is when they are alive its a no brainer to eat this, but when they arent alive, they eat them off the ground because of how good their eyesite is. Almost as though the brine shrimp is sitting still as not to be eaten, so they assume its alive. Its amazing how much they inspect everything. 

Anyway, sorry for the spill there lol i just really cant get over these fish and can only bore the girlfriend so much! They are unlike any fish i've had thats for sure, hopefully i can have luck with them and spread them around  Thanks for looking all.


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## pfcs49 (Apr 25, 2009)

I've had six in my 29g lo-tech for 2+ years. They are refuting all that I heard about their sensitivities, and are thriving in pH6.8 on flakes. 
So I got 3 Licorice Gouramis from Adams in Chester, NJ, and one disappeared, but two have flourished for about a year now. They are exquisite, especially when they display-like beautiful little Peacocks. So I pressured Adam to get me more so they'd be more visible, and he just got 30 in. (10ea of 3 varieties). I took 8.
Definitely fish for a small serene place-highly recommend!
PS: incidentally-these pictures don't show anyone really displaying. Imagine a pissed off Betta for a better idea!
PPS: Adams Pet Safari usually has Choclate Gouramis as well.


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## Lia (Aug 2, 2007)

pfcs49 said:


> I've had six in my 29g lo-tech for 2+ years. They are refuting all that I heard about their sensitivities, and are thriving in pH6.8 on flakes.
> So I got 3 Licorice Gouramis from Adams in Chester, NJ, and one disappeared, but two have flourished for about a year now. They are exquisite, especially when they display-like beautiful little Peacocks. So I pressured Adam to get me more so they'd be more visible, and he just got 30 in. (10ea of 3 varieties). I took 8.
> Definitely fish for a small serene place-highly recommend!
> PS: incidentally-these pictures don't show anyone really displaying. Imagine a pissed off Betta for a better idea!
> PPS: Adams Pet Safari usually has Choclate Gouramis as well.


Very pretty fish and tank.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

pfcs49-nice looking fish! That chocolate is dark. Every had any luck with them breeding?

-Update on mine, i went to another one of my LFS today and they had a tank of chocolates. About a dozen or so. The more i watch the first 3 i got a week ago i am pretty sure they are all females (at least 2 are). Out of the dozen or so my lfs had, two of them were much darker than the rest and also have the signs i HAVEN't been able to find on my 3 so i grabbed them. Pretty sure they are males. But an interesting note, the LFS i went to is one of my favorites around but i havent been able to get there as much since i moved. They said they have had these fish for about 2 months and they have been doing great. They are eating pellet food and in 7-7.2 water. TDS of the water in the bag when i got back was 307 and it was only about an hour drive. More hope for breeding a hardier chocolate gourami  :thumbsup: I'll post some pics later tonight or tomorrow!


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Depending on how large your tank is you may want to get more. I recall in the TFH article I mentioned earlier the author suggested keeping a dozen in an 80 gallon tank. There is a lot of social interaction with this species.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

I wasnt able to get access to that article. 5 is my limit for the setup i have now, but it is 1$/gallon sale at petco i believe and i have room for more tanks so an upgraded chocolate tank may very well be in my future. 

Axelrodi202-do you just have to subscribe to TFH to gain access? Or is it available elsewhere?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I'm not sure but I think you should be able to view it if you are subscribed to TFH digital. Given the nature of publishing deals and such I doubt it's available elsewhere. Basically it stresses the importance of the acclimation process (which you seem to be doing well with). There was a second article from January 2004 detailing the process of breeding and fry development.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

I subscribed to the digital copy, it only goes back to 2007. Really cool magazine though! I've been reading all night lol so thanks for the tip  snapped some pictures to cause i was bored.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

A little update with these fish. So far up to 5. All doing very well. Here is a quick video at feeding time, i have found they go crazy over blood worms. They are even starting to take pellets. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V_7X8ZiU54&feature=youtu.be

I'm starting to up the feedings to fatten up the females. I'm going to try and get them to breed in their current conditions. Probly give them a month, if no signs then i'll start to lower the PH and softness of the water slowly and see what happens. These fish have also become very sociable and have lost any shy-ness they had. As soon as i go to the tank they come front and center and play around. They are a really fun little fish and so far are not holding up to the reputation i have consistantly read about. We'll see what time entails!


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Very beautiful fish! Man your making me tempted to get some...


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## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Thats a very attractive fish/ interesting also a beautiful tank , I would try to breed those.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So big update here. As far as fish go, they are doing great but no real signs of breeding. I just got a new setup for them. I will have the plumbing finished tomorrow and hopefully find a good pump at the LFS to get it running, but i will be moving them to a 20L with a 20L sump. I know the sump is large, but i want maximum filtration for these guys. Also the large sump volume will allow me to very slowly adjust water params down if need be to get them to breed, then up again after the fry are born to raise them in hardier conditions. At least thats the ultimate goal  the nice thing is i have an approx 8 gallon tank in the sump that i will use to grow plants and shrimp as well as a possible growout for fry. I'll update with more pics as i get it running and planted. Plants will include achor moss, crypts, buces, mini pellia, anubias, dwarf sag, and i something in the back right behind the tree that will have long flowing leaves out of the corner. Not sure what to go with there, any input would be greatly appreciated. In the sand area will be IAL's and Oak Leaves. Let me know what you think  Thanks for looking!


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Those gourami's are going to love that new setup! Goodluck with trying to get them to breed.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So another big update. Got the new setup running. So far so good, no leaks. Put the heater in to get the temps up before planting. I will be painting the spray bar tomorrow as well. I have some seeded material in there but i'm going to let this run for a good 3 weeks to a month before the chocolates go in. I'm going to try and get it planted tomorrow once the temps stabilize and i'd like to do some DIY CO2 just to help jumpstart the plants. I have never dabbled in CO2 but picked up some hardware and will be ordering a diffuser so we'll see where that goes. I will be posting this quesion in another thread but if anyone knows the answer or can make a suggestion;

Should i inject the CO2 into the sump or the actual tank?? 

All the plants will be low-light but i have some that melted and need to recover so some CO2 should help. Anyway here are some pics of the new setup, i'll update tomorrow when/if i get it planted. 

As far as the fish, they are happy and healthy in their current home. Still no signs of breeding in the higher params although i havent really been pushing them to breed. That will start when i get them in the new tank


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Been a little since an update. Tank is coming along nicely. Finaly got the chocolates into the tank a couple days ago and they have taken to it very very well. In fact they are much more active with all that extra room and plants. Right now in with them are white clouds and two clown plecos. They dont seem to mind the white clouds at all, so they may stay in there. At least for now. 

The clown plecos are little poop machines, typical plecos. I like them but they may not be kept together much longer, especially as i start to condition the chocolates to breed. 

On the breeding front, im going to try again to condition them and get them to breed in the higher conditions. If nothing i'll add some alder cones and try and naturally soften up the water. If nothing then i'll start more drastic measures to drop the PH and hardness. 

Plants are doing well. I have the bottom planted with some fast growing stems and cull shrimp which are berried. In the top various crypts, some ferns, anchor moss on the wood and some various buces. Still has a lot of filling in to do and a lot more plants to go. I'm also taking a trip to the LFS today to get more of the rock to add more character around the tree. Hope you enjoy the pictures of the new setup, now the breeding challenge officially starts!!


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## KatherineL (Nov 8, 2013)

Tank looks nice! Why are the chocolates your favorite? 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


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## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Sweet looking setup how is the noise factor on a sump like that or is it relaxing water sound?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Aqguy said:


> Sweet looking setup how is the noise factor on a sump like that or is it relaxing water sound?


-Thanks! Actually, it is suprisingly quiet. Really relaxing water sound at best, its that quiet. 



KatherineL said:


> Tank looks nice! Why are the chocolates your favorite?


-Well, this tank was set up just for them because i would like to breed them and to give them more space. Its tough to say they are my favorite, but also hard to say they arent lol honestly from most of the readings i did on them they seemed like one of those fish you just dont mess with. Too finicky, need special params, etc. So i set out to see what truth there was and i believe a lot of the info out there is inaccurate. Or at least outdated to the point where we are now seeing a more stable chocolate gourami that can handle a wider range of params. They have done very very well for me so far (knock on wood). My ultimate goal is to breed these at a higher param level for these fish to make them easier and more readily available to fellow hobbyist. I will say these fish are truly fascinating and have amazing personality and their behaviour is unlike any other fish i've had by a long shot. Or should i say, more unique?? Either way they are wonderful, beautiful little fish that i hope to have success with in breeding them


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## KatherineL (Nov 8, 2013)

Ahh. I see what you mean. I have never kept gouramis before so I don't know much about them. Thanks for sharing! Wish you the best for breeding. 

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Just a couple of updated pics. Added some new brownie red on the left side. Not a permanent home for this rock, but it will get added somewhere within the scape. I'm thinking Buces on the left and Crypts on the right. I have plenty more rocks to place throughout the scape. As always any inputs are appreciated 

Chocolates are doing very well. Much more active since the move, i can tell they like the extra space. I've been feeding them heavily to get them into breeding condition. They have also been showing a lot of courting behaviour. Chasing, displaying, etc. We'll see what happens!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I've might have missed you mentioning this in an above post, but what are the other smaller/narrow fish in there with the chocolates? I'd thought you'd keep this as a species only tank for better fry survival rates once they breed. Btw love that piece of wood, looks so cool!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

AquaAurora said:


> I've might have missed you mentioning this in an above post, but what are the other smaller/narrow fish in there with the chocolates? I'd thought you'd keep this as a species only tank for better fry survival rates once they breed. Btw love that piece of wood, looks so cool!


Those are white clouds minnows. They will be rehomed shortly, they were really only in there to help establish the tank and let it mature a little prior to the chocolates going in. Suprisingly the two rarely interact and get along great, so thats why they have stayed up until this point, but not for long


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

SO pumped. Today i went to one of my lfs and couldnt believe my eyes. They had a pair of samurai chocolate gouramis, _Sphaerighthys vaillanti_. I've never seen these at a lfs, or really for sale much of anywhere. Scooped them up and just got back to the house to start acclimating them. I will post pics soon!!


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

Samurai chocolate gourami!!! Nice fish. Can't wait to see them.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks. I'm a little nervous. I gave them a lonnnggg drip acclimation but the female is still super stressed. The LFS had two pair. One of the employees bought one, no one even noticed the other. Hidden in a tank really. They have had them about a week, but they looked great and they said they have been eating like champs. Hopefully these two pull through and work out. No pics tonight, lights went off and im trying to give them as little stress as possible. I'll try and snap some tomorrow.


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

Cool. It always pays to look at the tanks very carefully. I've often found things that others apparently missed. Not only fish like the ones you found, but unusual fish that may have come in with a batch of other fish, or fish that are pairing off. I sure hope your fish make it through the transition to your tank. Good luck with them!


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Duck5003 said:


> Thanks. I'm a little nervous. I gave them a lonnnggg drip acclimation but the female is still super stressed. The LFS had two pair. One of the employees bought one, no one even noticed the other. Hidden in a tank really. They have had them about a week, but they looked great and they said they have been eating like champs. Hopefully these two pull through and work out. No pics tonight, lights went off and im trying to give them as little stress as possible. I'll try and snap some tomorrow.


Cant wait for the pics! Just googled em and they look awesome!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Well, they made it through the night. Still havent turned the lights on, but they are actually swimming around instead of just sitting in the back corner. Not counting my chickens yet, but its looking better! Taking the dog to the vet now, then i'll try and snap some pics this afternoon.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So here are a few ROUGH pics, but they are still really stressed. On a good note, the male has eaten and the female was foraging a little. In these pics you can notice the male in the background. Remember, the larger more colorful fish that you see in pictures is actually the female. You can lightly see her stripes but her color has not fully come back yet. 

They are currently in a quarantine tank, however this is going to be very short lived. I am adjusting their current tank, cycled 15 gallon and they will be the only fish in there. Just want to do a quick gravel vac and big water change and they will be in there new home tomorrow hopefully. I will try to get more, better pictures later today if i can. Fingers still crossed for these two!


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## elegysanft (Feb 3, 2013)

wow thats great, samurai gourami are so neat looking
Hope they get comfortable soon!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Quick update. FINALLY watched the female eat today. I'm sure she's been eating as she hasnt gotten any skinnier in the last few days, but always a good feeling to SEE them eat. The male has been eating since day 1. They are starting to be a little more bold and seem to be getting comfortable but boy are they shy fish. I'm not sure when i should move them to their permanent home. I may do it tonight right before lights out to minimize stress levels just not sure since they are just starting to get comfortable. Any input/personal preferences on timeframe for moving sensitive fish is always welcome  

I'll try to snap more pictures when i get the chance. Thanks for looking


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Don't put them with the normal chocolates...I am wiling to bet that they will hybridize in a heartbeat.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Grah the great said:


> Don't put them with the normal chocolates...I am wiling to bet that they will hybridize in a heartbeat.


I think so to. They are seperate now and will stay that way. 

The QT tank the samurais are in now is about 8 gallons. The tank they are moving to is 15 gallons. It was/is a well established tank, however for these guys i rescaped it added more plants and added some sand. Its been running for 2 days just to make sure no mini cycles or amonia spikes and so far everything tests fine. Probly do one more 30% WC and then in they go.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Alright! So i got them moved into their own personal tank. I was hesitant to do so, but i am glad i did. *knock on wood* they seem a lot happier! They are out and about exploring and are starting to color up better than i've seen them yet. 

I read an interesting article today about small schooling fish being put in with them for a more natural feel. I didnt have anything native to their area so i added some gold ring danio _Danio tinwini_. They are a nice calm schooling fish and do not pester other fish at all. There are also 3 ottos. This may also be helping their shyness. I snapped a couple quick pics. This first is the newly rescaped tank and the other two are the new couple. Fingers still crossed!


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## boredincubicle (Aug 8, 2012)

Awesome tanks. Really jealous of you being able to find them at all locally, let alone 2 different species. I wish I had a tank of these guys, they just look so neat.

How is their temperament with smaller fish? I see the colors and imagine they are that way for camouflage to be better ambush predators for little critters, but I have no idea.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

boredincubicle said:


> Awesome tanks. Really jealous of you being able to find them at all locally, let alone 2 different species. I wish I had a tank of these guys, they just look so neat.
> 
> How is their temperament with smaller fish? I see the colors and imagine they are that way for camouflage to be better ambush predators for little critters, but I have no idea.



Thanks. Yeah i was really shocked when i saw them. I'm going to try and see if they can't get me more of them. I'd like 4-6 if i can get ahold of them and eventually would like to try to breed them. 

As far as temperment goes, both species show little to no aggression towards other species. With my normal chocolates they are either hunting/foraging for food or chasing and displaying for each other. 

The problem/difficulty with the regular chocolates is they are all but impossible to sex. I still am not sure what my ratio is with this group but i am up to 6 total regular chocolates.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

What size tanks are you keeping them in/do they need? Also do what are the water parameters that are best for em? Youve got me tempted to see if I should keep some...


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Both chocolates can be kept in small groups in 24 inch long tanks and have a strong (though apparently not mandatory, as Duck has proven) preference for soft, acidic water. The normal chocolate gourami, if you try to breed them, are (oddly enough, knowing anabantoids) maternal mouthbrooders whose females carry the eggs, while samurai gourami are paternal mouthbrooders and the male gets stuck with the brood. Both are much more likely to breed in soft, acidic water, which may be a problem if you have rock hard tap water. I've also heard they are picky eaters, but as I have not seen many people who own either species I am not entirely sure.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

lamiskool said:


> What size tanks are you keeping them in/do they need? Also do what are the water parameters that are best for em? Youve got me tempted to see if I should keep some...





Grah the great said:


> Both chocolates can be kept in small groups in 24 inch long tanks and have a strong (though apparently not mandatory, as Duck has proven) preference for soft, acidic water. The normal chocolate gourami, if you try to breed them, are (oddly enough, knowing anabantoids) maternal mouthbrooders whose females carry the eggs, while samurai gourami are paternal mouthbrooders and the male gets stuck with the brood. Both are much more likely to breed in soft, acidic water, which may be a problem if you have rock hard tap water. I've also heard they are picky eaters, but as I have not seen many people who own either species I am not entirely sure.


Great info Grah. Currently the 6 regulars are in a 20L with a 20L sump. They are also with a large school of white clouds but those are coming out soon when i attempt to spawn them. 

The samurai are housed in a 15 gallon with an AC30 and a sponge filter rated for 50 gallons. Both tanks are running the same param wise. 6.9-7 PH 5-6 GH 1-2 KH 175 TDS. 

So far its pretty early to tell you much about the samurai other than they are SUPER timid. I've only offered live food and i have seen them both eat, we'll see how picky they are as time goes on. The regular chocolates were very picky at first, only taking live brine shrimp and cut up blood worms but i have them eating pellets and pretty much whatever i put in there. 

I can safely say that the regular chocolates are doing well despite my seemingly off params (compared to most info). They are super active, constantly display and forage, and now swarm me when i go up to the tank in anticipation of food. Breeding i think is going to be a different story however. I'll update more on that aspect soon. 

Samurais its just too early to tell, although since moving them into the 15 gallon they are much more active and seem much happier and i've seen them both eat live brine shrimp. Still havent tried any other foods with them.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks for the info guys! Yea I have basically rock hard water gh:10, kh:7 TDS:270ish. I guess ill just stick to the GBR pair I have in the 20G Long.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Just got home. Coloring up nicely!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Quick update on the food front. The samurai are following suit with the regular chocolates. They LOVE chopped up blood worms. It seems if they are the whole worms they dont want it. I'm very happy to see them eating so well  here are some better shots of the male, and one more of the female.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So an interesting update on these guys. When i had originally got the samurais and had them in quarantine by themselves, they were super stressed and rarely came out. The same could be said about the regular chocolates back in December, just not as severe as the samurai. 

Now before i got the samurais, i moved the chocolates into the 20L with 15 white cloud minnows and there was a noticable difference in there activity and confidence in the tank, but i guess i attributed this mostly to them being in a larger tank at the time. Samurais, once moved out of quarantine into the 15 gallon with the gold ring danio within a day were more active, colorful, and comfortable in the tank. Coming out and venturing up to the glass and eating much much better. 

So the reason i did this was from an article i read on Samurais in TFH archives that stated they liked to keep small dither fish with them as it made them more comfortable. Well i recently took out all 15 of the white clouds and moved them into the sump refugium for now. The next day i went in and all the regular chocolates seemed super stressed the next day. They were hiding, pale in color, and not rushing to the glass for food like they normally would. All params tested fine, so i scooped out 7 white clouds and put them back in the main tank, and within an hour they went back to normal chasing and flaring at full color. 

So long story short, it appears these fish enjoy the company of dithers. Eases stress levels and allows them to be more comfortable. Another thought is they could just be reacting to a change in their surroundings, such as "all these fish just disappeared, so what ate them" kinda thing, but i didnt want to take a chance of losing any by waiting to see what they did with more time by themselves.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So a couple of updates. I now have the samurais eating pellets  They have become very active fish and a lot less bashful. I have also started to drop the ph and i'm seeing a large increase in breeding activity. Some amazing coloration of the female and some chasing and courting going on. See pics below  Also, i have a very strong lead on more of the samurais. If all goes well i should be getting 5-6 more soon which i'm very excited for. I have a 29 gallon running that will be species only for this group. I really cant get enough of these fish, they are so stunning and have amazing personalities. The 29 gallong is not fully set up yet. Currently its just a storage/prep for my water, filtering through peat. 

On the osphromenoides front, they continue to do very well. No luck breeding them, but i havent started dropping their ph and really tried. Currently i have several buce species temporarily housed in their tank and i dont wanna start altering params and risk hurting them. I have another tank running with very low ph that i am going to try and move them to and breed in small groups. More on that as it develops. 

Loving these fish!!!


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

As always, loving the pics!  are you worried about the gouramis getting outcompeted for food by the much faster fish?


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## mattjm20 (Nov 2, 2013)

dasob85 said:


> As always, loving the pics!  are you worried about the gouramis getting outcompeted for food by the much faster fish?


I am wondering about the competition too. I have a 90G with two angels that are getting pretty large and 5 boesemani. I like pear and chocolate gouramis but wasn't sure if they were too slow to compete with the rainbows and possibly prone to getting beat up by the angels (the angels ignore the other species but one angel chases the other around)


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Out of curiosity, but how are you lowering the PH? Do you happen to know your current water parameters, in case I ever try my hand at owning/breeding Spaericthys (am I spelling that right? )


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

dasob85 said:


> As always, loving the pics!  are you worried about the gouramis getting outcompeted for food by the much faster fish?





mattjm20 said:


> I am wondering about the competition too. I have a 90G with two angels that are getting pretty large and 5 boesemani. I like pear and chocolate gouramis but wasn't sure if they were too slow to compete with the rainbows and possibly prone to getting beat up by the angels (the angels ignore the other species but one angel chases the other around)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7W1pa-7V5E&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgIxeCbcli4&feature=youtu.be

Here are two quick (rough) videos of me feeding pellets. The osphromenoides, as you can see are rather voracious feeders. If anything, i would say they are the bullies at feeding time. As for the samurais, they arent bashful either. And these are just with pellets. You should see them with chopped up blood worms!! :icon_eek:



Grah the great said:


> Out of curiosity, but how are you lowering the PH? Do you happen to know your current water parameters, in case I ever try my hand at owning/breeding Spaericthys (am I spelling that right? )


Your close! Its Sphaerichthys  and below is a picture of how i'm doing it. In the actual tanks at all times i have several IALs. This keeps them at Ph6.9 Gh 5 Kh 1 . In the samurai tank, i have been using water from the tank below that has been filtered through peat moss for 3 days to do water changes. I have been doing 2 gallons per day, slowly bringing things down. Every change they show more and more spawning behaviours so i'm waiting for a spawn at any time (fingers, toes, legs, arms crossed :hihi: ). The water filtered through the peat is ph6.0-6.2 gh 3 kh 1.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

Oh yours are much more outgoing than mine. Same appetite though


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

You fish look very happy and colorful (compared to photos of first-day-in) I hope they bless you with successful mating and too many fry to know what to do with soon ^^


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

dasob85 said:


> Oh yours are much more outgoing than mine. Same appetite though


Believe me, it took a while for them to get that comfortable. And the dither fish absolutely help. In the samurai tank i have removed all the gold ring danios (gonna try and get some of the eggs before they eat them) and the only dither fish are 4 ottos. So far i've noticed no difference in the samurais behaviour. There was however a noticable difference that time i mentioned before when removing the white clouds from the osphros tank. 

Are you still housing yours by themselves?



AquaAurora said:


> You fish look very happy and colorful (compared to photos of first-day-in) I hope they bless you with successful mating and too many fry to know what to do with soon ^^


Thanks  I will say these guys were SUPER nerve racking in the beginning. They really require special attention just in the fact they need to be left alone and as little stress put on them as possible until they get comfortable. But once they warm up to you and their surroundings, they sure are a lot of fun!! :bounce:


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

I admit I failed to ask this earlier, but what is your water like right out of the tap, before the peat moss is applied to it?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Grah the great said:


> I admit I failed to ask this earlier, but what is your water like right out of the tap, before the peat moss is applied to it?


Out of the tap its PH 7.0-7.2 GH 5 KH 1 TDS 130's 140's. I have 29 gallons of water running through an AC30 with two pantyhose liner DIY peat bags (enough to fill the media chamber). I'm not sure how long this will last before having to refill the peat. 

I currently have two 5 gallons i'm setting up. I'm going to do one with inert substrate and my conditioned water and one with ADA Amazonia and run them for a year and see where they end up. Ultimately i'm trying to decide weather or not its better to buy the expensive stuff, or keep a 50 gallon barrel of peat treated water running. ADA amazonia is roughly $50/ 9L bag. I got a bale of peat for $10 so i wanna see how the two stack as far as longevity in regards to params only.


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Sounds fairly similar to mine...my water has a PH of 7.8 and a TDS of 173. Not sure about KH or GH. I was actually asking since I am considering a blackwater tank in the future with either a wild betta species, parosphromenus species, or (predictably) samurai gouramies with a school of tetras or perhaps boraras sp. I was thinking of using a seperate container with regularly replaced Safe T sorb to lower the TDS and KH of the water, and use a peat filter - either in that container or the main tank - to reduce the GH and PH. How do you think that would work?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Grah the great said:


> Sounds fairly similar to mine...my water has a PH of 7.8 and a TDS of 173. Not sure about KH or GH. I was actually asking since I am considering a blackwater tank in the future with either a wild betta species, parosphromenus species, or (predictably) samurai gouramies with a school of tetras or perhaps boraras sp. I was thinking of using a seperate container with regularly replaced Safe T sorb to lower the TDS and KH of the water, and use a peat filter - either in that container or the main tank - to reduce the GH and PH. How do you think that would work?


Parosphromenus are next on my list  They are stunning fish! And i think that would work. The only reason i'm not running the peat filter on the gourami tank itself is because i'm not sure how long each batch of peat will last, so i didnt want to risk fluctuating params in the tank itself at first until i get an idea from the storage tank. Once i have that down, i will likely have one HOB or sponge for bacteria, and one HOB with peat on the actualy tank with the fish. That 29 will be the home for my samurais once i hopefully (fingers still crossed) get more.

**I also need to see how low i can get the 15 gallon samurai tank with just water changes. I'm doing 2 gallons/day and tonight will be the 4th change. I'll post readings afterwards to see how the tank is comparing to the storage water.

From my experience so far, i would say you really need to pay attention to TDS, GH, and KH more than PH. Their range for PH i would say can go to 7.1 to 7.2 would be the max, but obviously the lower you can get it the better.


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Duck5003 said:


> Parosphromenus are next on my list  They are stunning fish! And i think that would work. The only reason i'm not running the peat filter on the gourami tank itself is because i'm not sure how long each batch of peat will last, so i didnt want to risk fluctuating params in the tank itself at first until i get an idea from the storage tank. Once i have that down, i will likely have one HOB or sponge for bacteria, and one HOB with peat on the actualy tank with the fish. That 29 will be the home for my samurais once i hopefully (fingers still crossed) get more.
> 
> **I also need to see how low i can get the 15 gallon samurai tank with just water changes. I'm doing 2 gallons/day and tonight will be the 4th change. I'll post readings afterwards to see how the tank is comparing to the storage water.
> 
> From my experience so far, i would say you really need to pay attention to TDS, GH, and KH more than PH. Their range for PH i would say can go to 7.1 to 7.2 would be the max, but obviously the lower you can get it the better.


Hope the paros go well! I've heard that they are quite picky eaters...maybe that's why they're endangered in the wild :red_mouth. Just kidding!

Anyhow, this will be some time down the road. Currently my main focus is my 29 gallon unheated tank, with 11 zebra danios, 2 pearl danios (the only survivors of an unsuccessful attempt to establish a school of them in my tank), 2 variatus platies (again the only survivors of an unsuccessful introduction attempt, although I am planning to buff their numbers), and my paradise fish, Pearl. Poor Pearl has been widowed twice - her first male, Bear (who was my favorite fish ever, and quite the gentleman) caught what killed most of the Pearl Danios and had to be put down about a week later, while my second male (Cape) was a blatant psycho who killed a zebra danio, shredded the fins of a platy (who had to be put down for a fungal infection about a week later), constantly chased everyone else and drove Pearl into hiding...I killed him myself :icon_neut. The plan currently is to get 1-2 more females and then look for another male PF...from my research, they don't seem to be as psychotic as usually claimed, at least when multiple PF's are involved (Cape, as mentioned before, was a psychotic fluke...he even gave me the death look! :hihi.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

Duck5003 said:


> Are you still housing yours by themselves?


Yes they are still in their own 20long. My water is stained very brown though and they have lots of driftwood to hide under. If I spy on them from across the room, they are out in the open. I had ember tetras with them but those little guys seemed too speedy. I was thinking maybe i'd move some pencilfish in as dithers but those guys are crazy good hunters for food. The plan is to be patient and remove the tannins slowly through water changes and then put in some dwarf cories.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

dasob85 said:


> Yes they are still in their own 20long. My water is stained very brown though and they have lots of driftwood to hide under. If I spy on them from across the room, they are out in the open. I had ember tetras with them but those little guys seemed too speedy. I was thinking maybe i'd move some pencilfish in as dithers but those guys are crazy good hunters for food. The plan is to be patient and remove the tannins slowly through water changes and then put in some dwarf cories.


I would say it took mine a solid 2 months before they really started always being out and not shy. Now they show ZERO timidness. They will even come up and nibble my hand during water changes, plant moves, etc. I have found ottos to be great dithers and also, so far amano shrimp. I only put full sized adults in and they leave them entirely alone. Of course, their mouths are so small, i dont see how they could even damage an amano. Just some ideas you may want to try  

Update on these guys. Osphros continue to do very well, not really trying to spawn them yet and can say i dont believe they will ever spawn in the higher params, although they can happily live in them!

Vaillantis, still no breeding but they have to be close. I have their ph down to about 6.2 gh 3-4 kh0-1 TDS 100-110 and man are they showing some color and spawing behaviour. I havent been feeding live foods, only high protein so i think that may be the trick. Still trying to figure out what live foods i want to introduce for them. This pair continues to remain in the 15 for now (see pics below)

I'm in the process of turning my 29 gallon peat water storage container into my gourami spawning tank. It will be peat filtered only with an HOB, still deciding on how i want to do the bio filter. Bare bottom tank scattered with IAL's and driftwood. Very low lighting. More on this as i put everything together.

I've also secured 6 more vaillantis    that shoud be ready to be shipped out to me in about a week or so. So i'm hoping the increased numbers will also help induce a spawn. That's all for now, as always thanks for looking!!


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

drool....


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

I personally use dry oak leaves for tannin levels... Works great. Just tossing this in. 
What all are you feeding those gorgeous samurais? 
Do you think they'd be okay with microrasboras? They're BEYOND gorgeous!


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

yowza those are nice pictures!

I've always found my otos to be more shy than normal fish haha but we shall see. For some reason my chocs got spooked this weekend and have been clinging to the driftwood for 3 days straight even when i'm not in the room. They really are quite temperamental fish lol


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

lamiskool said:


> drool....


I do the same thing every time i look into the tank lol these are definitely the most stunning fish i've ever owned. Thats why i really want to get these guys to spawn. They are so hard to find, which needs to change so more people can try these fish  as good as they look in pictures, its that much better in person! 



Betta132 said:


> I personally use dry oak leaves for tannin levels... Works great. Just tossing this in.
> What all are you feeding those gorgeous samurais?
> Do you think they'd be okay with microrasboras? They're BEYOND gorgeous!


I've read that those work well also, but just havent tried them. Next fall i will be though, lots of oak trees in this part of the country! And i have these on pellets and chopped up bloodworms. I originally started them on live brine shrimp, them moved them to chopped bloodworms, and after about 3 weeks got them to start with the pellets. One note to add, they (both osphros and vailliant) do not like frozen brine shrimp at all. They dont touch it for some reason. I need to get myself a constant live food source to cultivate for them, i think that is going to be important for spawning just not sure what to get. 

As for the rasboras i see no reason they wouldn't. They are by no means aggressive fish and their mouths are SO tiny. I have been trying to get a "yawn" pic to show the mouth but so far havent been able to capture it.



dasob85 said:


> yowza those are nice pictures!


Thanks


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

They spawned!!! Finally, after i was thinking they werent going to because of the no live food, the male has a throat full of eggs  here are some quick pics. 

I'm kind of kicking myself though. I came home and fed them without looking in the tank first. I noticed it was strange when NO ONE came out to eat. Especially the male, as he is usually the first one on the scene gobbling everything up. Then i found him and new instantly he had eggs. He has gone up to the food but wont eat it. In fact in the one pic you can see him looking at it. I was going to try and net the food out, but i dont wanna scare him. I'm just going to let it be and hope for the best. 

Cant tell you how excited i am!!!! Fingers crossed


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## SinisterSheltie (May 28, 2013)

That is awesome, congrats! I hope your spawn does well for you.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

those are so, so, so awesome looking


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Congrats! Guess they don't need RO water to spawn


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone! So far so good it would seem. Saw the male very briefly this morning, but he is staying pretty well hidden. 

Debating on whether or not to remove the female....I may wait, since she is the "protection" in this relationship so it may help keep him calm and less stressed. Closer to when he releases the fry though, i may pull her. I wish i had a camera that was good enough to capture the eggs, you can barely make them out through is throat when he shuffles them around. Its pretty cool  I'll see if i can snap any tonight or get a video


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Am I right that the female keeps other fish away from the brooding male? (Oh, by the way, if you ever breed osphromenoides, it is a maternal mouth brooder for some odd reason).


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Congrats on the eggs! Hope you have a high fry survival rate! Do you have 'baby food' lines up for when they start growing?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Grah the great said:


> Am I right that the female keeps other fish away from the brooding male? (Oh, by the way, if you ever breed osphromenoides, it is a maternal mouth brooder for some odd reason).


Yep! Vaillianti-paternal, Osphro-maternal. 

It's interesting because i had original plans to breed the osphros. Found the Vailliantis unexpectedly,and since i have some buces temporarily housed in with my osphros and dont wanna start changing params i decided to try with Vaillianti. 

Also, one big thing to note; the Osphros are INSANELY difficult to sex. I'm hoping once i give them a run in the lower params it becomes more apparent but we shall see.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

AquaAurora said:


> Congrats on the eggs! Hope you have a high fry survival rate! Do you have 'baby food' lines up for when they start growing?


Not yet, however these guys have about a 3 week gestation period and from the few sources i have seen, they are able to take freshly hatched brine shrimp right out of the gate. Only takes me about 24-36 hours to hatch them, so i have time  i really hope i get some fry out of this batch! Biggest thing here is to keep this water clean. Apparently bacterial and fungal infections can happen with the eggs which can cause death to the male as well. Fingers crossed! (and maybe a few toes lol)


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

That's great news! I think we'll all have our fingers crossed for you. I recently found some chocolate gourami's at my LFS - had never seen them there before. I bought all four but one died within two days. The other three seem fine and are eating well!


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

man congrats on the eggs, and those guys are looking awesome


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

RWaters said:


> That's great news! I think we'll all have our fingers crossed for you. I recently found some chocolate gourami's at my LFS - had never seen them there before. I bought all four but one died within two days. The other three seem fine and are eating well!


That's great you found some! And even better they are eating well  What are you keeping them at param wise?



lamiskool said:


> man congrats on the eggs, and those guys are looking awesome


Thanks


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## swoof (Jun 30, 2010)

congrats on the eggs, hope things work out with the brood.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

congrats on the eggs !


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Well i have a bit of a sad update. He swallowed the eggs :icon_neut or something of the sort. Either way they are gone. Params are good. Temp is good. I just think it was a dud run, which from what i have read on them is not uncommon. 

Its ok though, i know it can be done and will be better prepared for the next spawn. They are still courting like crazy so who knows when that will be. Plus hopefully i will be getting the 6 i have reserved soon, which will help  The 29 spawning tank is ready to go. Just need to get a low light for it which i'll pick up sometime this week, then i may move them into that. Once spawned, put the female back in the 15. 

Oshpros came out to pose this morning, and they havent been getting much attention lately so i snapped some pics. They are showing some nice colors  As always, thanks for looking. I'll get there with this whole breeding thing yet!!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Well might have been first time dad, so some hick-ups happen. Better luck next spawn ^^


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Agree with above...he'll get the hang of it.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> Well might have been first time dad, so some hick-ups happen. Better luck next spawn ^^


 
yeeep hopefully he gets better with practice, gl!


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## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Duck5003 said:


> Here's a couple pics of the assumed male flaring at me. And a short video of the 3.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPf7v20Uhps&feature=youtu.be


Im still really impressed with this fish they just look awesome , have never seen one in the stores .


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm thoroughly enjoying this thread.

Hope you have better luck with the next spawn!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks for the comments everyone, these fish are so much fun  They are still just courting away in their 15 gallon. I havent heard about my 6 that i'm waiting on, i know the seller was going to give them time to acclimate and settle down before shipping again. He said he had them and they looked great a week ago, hopefully all is still well!! Knowing how long these guys take to settle down i'm not suprised they arent ready yet.



Aqguy said:


> Im still really impressed with this fish they just look awesome , have never seen one in the stores .


Thanks aqguy, and your right i've only seen them once and i bought them  Thats why i'm REALLY hoping for success here, these guys are too cool to not be more readily available to hobbyist. Truely one of the most striking fish i've ever seen. As good as they look in pics, they are that much better in person. 

I should also note, i love my osphros too and highly reccommend them to anyone who has the chance to pick them up. They are very beautiful and have awesome personalities and behaviour. I've also been seeing them more and more in LFS, so it would appear they are becoming more common  :thumbsup:


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## Kaduhn1 (Aug 3, 2013)

Awesome thread. I have a pair blue paradises gouramis and the male is constantly showing off to her and attempting to build bubble nest but i have them in a community tank with too much flow and higher ph etc. he's done it a few times but she hasn't been interested. I assume the conditions aren't right. this thread is perfect for what i need to setup. low ph and hardness, lots of floaters since mine build bubble nest. Hope you get them to bread again. Just an idea but I have some rubbermaid totes that i could do a sump setup like yours. do you think they would mind not having glass to see out of? they do normally live in rice paddy fields and puddles so i wouldn't think it would matter to them. Seems like a cheap way to set up some breeding tanks.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Kaduhn1 said:


> Awesome thread. I have a pair blue paradises gouramis and the male is constantly showing off to her and attempting to build bubble nest but i have them in a community tank with too much flow and higher ph etc. he's done it a few times but she hasn't been interested. I assume the conditions aren't right. this thread is perfect for what i need to setup. low ph and hardness, lots of floaters since mine build bubble nest. Hope you get them to bread again. Just an idea but I have some rubbermaid totes that i could do a sump setup like yours. do you think they would mind not having glass to see out of? they do normally live in rice paddy fields and puddles so i wouldn't think it would matter to them. Seems like a cheap way to set up some breeding tanks.


Thanks! I've seen the blue paradise a few times and they are very pretty fish. However i have no experience with them. As far as your idea for a setup, i see no reason why that wouldnt work. Honetsly, i think the glass is more for us than the fish :hihi: 

I know with the 29 that will be the breeder tank once i get more driftwood, i am going to black out the back and the sides. They like dark, secluded, warm water. I know i've seen some betta breeders that use large round tubs for breeding "ponds" 

You should give it a try! If your looking to soften your water, a resevoir that you filter through peat works wonders. Run it for 2 or 3 days and it will stay there and the fish will love it!


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## Kaduhn1 (Aug 3, 2013)

Could I just do one of the compartments in the sump with peat in it? What kind of peat moss is it?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Kaduhn1 said:


> Could I just do one of the compartments in the sump with peat in it? What kind of peat moss is it?


o yeah, definitely. I guess i only do it the way i do, because even with double lined bags when i put fresh peat in i get some debris in the water. In my storage container it settles to the bottom so i dont get any in the tank with the fish. Not that some loose peat would hurt them, i guess i just dont want it to accumulate and be another thing i have to clean. 

With your sump though, you could build it similar to mine and just have your peat in the chamber before the filter media, just make sure you dont have active carbon in there. I just havent done that yet on the osphro tank becaue of the plants that tank is housing at the moment


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## Kaduhn1 (Aug 3, 2013)

As soon as we plant our gardens- the plants are taking up a closet that is warm so I wouldn't have to heat the tanks I'll give it a shot. I think I'm going to try local pond plants as well. Keep it as natural as possible.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So, round two! And this time, I got it on video 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XhTHoqLrrE

Its a pretty rough video, they did their best to have their privacy but i managed to get a little footage. It was pretty cool to see! Now the male has a mouth full of eggs. This time, i have no fed them. I will leave the female until he is closer to releasing them (if he holds them) and i'm not turning on the tank light. I will give them some light a day but just shining in from the front of the tank. Very dim!

I just got the 29 ready to go for the spawn (see pic below), but they beat me to the punch and are still in the 15. But at least i now have a tank to move the female in and eventually the male if i get babies. We'll see how it goes!


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

I had a pair of Sphaerichthys Vaillanti's in a 40 long years ago. I loved their color and slow inquisitive nature. I wouldn't mind getting a pair again, but doubt one of my cubes would suffice as a home for them since it would be limited space for a curious fish.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

You peeping tom! Good luck with this batch. Hope you get babies!


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Agree with above...congrats! Guess they are not as fickle as usually reported


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

On a side note, that is probably the highest quality samurai gourami video on the internet...I tip my hat to your skills with the video camera.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

Nice! congrats!


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## BHolmes (Aug 23, 2012)

Nice journal and tons of interesting info. This makes me really look forward to keeping chocolate and samurai gourami again. Good luck and congrats!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

So is the brewed still 'incubating' in your males mouth?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So i've recently been rather MIA on the forum due to a change in jobs this past couple of weeks. SUPER busy. But, i have great great reason for update......I have fry  

Just got home from work and there are a bunch in there! I will try to get pics as i can but i dont want to turn on the light yet. I've counted at least ten. And wouldnt you know i JUST started a brine shrimp yesterday because i had a "feeling" lol 

SO SO PUMPED!!!!!


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## metageologist (Jan 10, 2008)

Congratulations. Breeding them is quite the accomplishment. I tried for a few years with no success. 

Have a gniess day. -Scott


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Woohoo! Gratz!


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Congrats again! I hope these fry make it to adulthood and give you more samurai gourami!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks everyone  So its been one night and they are still going strong. Snapped a couple quick pics of the babies. I'm borrowing my buddies 6d DSLR this weekend so hopefully i can get some sweet pics for the thread. It seems that he is still holding some of the babies though, throat is still bulged and moving. So far i believe there are approx 10-12. I will add more pics and info as time allows. Happy Friday all!!


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Remember to keep a very tight lid on that tank! The fry will need humid air that is about the same temperature as their water in order to develop their labryinth organ in a few weeks.


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

CONGRATS on the fry. They look just like tiny little replicas.


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## Aqguy (Oct 30, 2013)

Duck5003 said:


> Thanks everyone  So its been one night and they are still going strong. Snapped a couple quick pics of the babies. I'm borrowing my buddies 6d DSLR this weekend so hopefully i can get some sweet pics for the thread. It seems that he is still holding some of the babies though, throat is still bulged and moving. So far i believe there are approx 10-12. I will add more pics and info as time allows. Happy Friday all!!


Cool good looking babies "...........


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Grah the great said:


> Remember to keep a very tight lid on that tank! The fry will need humid air that is about the same temperature as their water in order to develop their labryinth organ in a few weeks.


Thanks! Got everything sealed up pretty well and the air temp is 80+ at the moment. I also have the room they are in heated higher than normal just in case.



jmf3460 said:


> CONGRATS on the fry. They look just like tiny little replicas.


They realy are! Its amazing, i keep snapping a ton of pics with my cell phone but they are so small they arent really in focus (my cell is CRAP! lol ) but i'll be getting a nice camera this weekend to use. Hopefully i can get some nice clear photos and a video or two.

One thing to note, just since being released yesterday they have doubled in size. Thats not saying much in overal length, but as far as rate of growth 50% in 24 hours is pretty impressive! We'll see how that continues (hopefully  )


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Just curious; you culturing anything besides BBS for them?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

lauraleellbp said:


> Just curious; you culturing anything besides BBS for them?


Currently, no. Which i need to remedy but i'm not sure what to culture for them. I have BBS and also have a TON of seed shrimp in one of my shrimp tanks that i've been throwing in. I've already watched some of them eat  

Any suggestions on a nice, small food to culture? Blackworms i feel would be too big, at least for the fry. 

I also put in a small amount of powder food in but they didnt seem to interested in that, although its hard to tell. They are just so darn tiny! I've counted at least 15 for sure, its amazing he had that many fish in his throat. I would have never guessed!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I know a lot of betta breeders also keep microworm and vinegar eel cultures going, which they like because they'll live longer in freshwater than BBS usually will.


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

lauraleellbp said:


> I know a lot of betta breeders also keep microworm and vinegar eel cultures going, which they like because they'll live longer in freshwater than BBS usually will.


Those both look like great options. Seems the vinegar eels take quite a bit longer to culture. I'll have to see if i can get my hands on some, particulartly with the newest discovery this morning  

So i saw the first fry on 5-22. Didnt really count because it was late and i didnt want to stress them. Yesterday at the end of the day i counted 15 fry and almost removed the male however his throat was still SLIGHTLY puffed out. So i took the risk of him eating some and left him one more night. Boy am i glad i did. This morning, there are well over 30 fry!!!!  

It is truly amazing, i have no idea how he held ALL those fish in his mouth. I could have never guessed. 

Now, with the good news i have a slight predicament. I am worried about having enough food for all these babies. I already have another batch of BBS brewing and have more seed shrimp than i know what to do with. I need to get my hands on some other foods. If anyone can help, please check out the thread I will be posting in the WTB section. 

Snapped a few cell pics that are actually decent. Enjoy and as always, thanks for looking!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Wow 30, that's awesome!

Just in case you don't get any bites here, there are usually sellers on Aquabid with live cultures.

You might want to invest in Mike Hellweg's live cultures book if you don't already have it: Culturing Live Foods: A Step-by-Step Guide for Culturing One's Own Food for the Home Aquarium: Mike Hellweg: 9780793806553: Amazon.com: Books


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## Tyrone (Nov 22, 2013)

This is amazing! I've always wanted to keep these guys but its kind of hard to find in my area of LFS's. If they do have them, I have to drive far. 

Do you keep and breed Samurai Gourami as well? I'm in search of those guys as well. 

Congrats on the fry! 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

Congratulations on the fry!

I saw Chocolate Gouramis at my lfs for the first time last week and I was in love! I came home and read a couple of articles and shied away from impulsively running back to get them. It's nice to be able to read about someone having success with these beautiful fish.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

wow congrats! let me know if you need some microworms or vinegar worms


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks a ton lauralee  



Tyrone said:


> This is amazing! I've always wanted to keep these guys but its kind of hard to find in my area of LFS's. If they do have them, I have to drive far.
> 
> Do you keep and breed Samurai Gourami as well? I'm in search of those guys as well.
> 
> Congrats on the fry!


Thanks! And these fry pictured are actually Samurai Gourami _ Sphaerichthys vaillanti_

I do also have 6 regular chocolate gouramis _Sphaerichthys osphromenoides_ , but i have yet to try and breed them. 



Varmint said:


> Congratulations on the fry!
> 
> I saw Chocolate Gouramis at my lfs for the first time last week and I was in love! I came home and read a couple of articles and shied away from impulsively running back to get them. It's nice to be able to read about someone having success with these beautiful fish.


Thanks  they are definitely misunderstood in my opinion. Sure to breed them you need very soft, acidic water but that's the case with a lot of fish. Once i got the conditions right and fed them well, they went right to work. I've only had these fish less than 6 months. With that beind said, my osphros are doing very well in 7.0 ph 5 Gh 0-1KH and 180TDS but no signs of breeding. They are next on my spawn list


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## Tyrone (Nov 22, 2013)

Thanks for clarifying that for me! I love it when they color up. Are you planning on parting with some of these little guys, when ready? If so, I'd like to pick some up. I'm sure there's already a line, huh. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So unfortunately i have absolutely horrible news to report, but a valuable lesson learned. 

Last night, i almost removed the male. I was going to and then at the last minute decided not to in case there were a few stragglers behind. Well, big mistake on my part. 

Lights off, 35+ fry. Lights on, i'm lucky if i still have 10. I did find 3 bodies but the babies were deformed. Other than that, papa had a nice late night meal. 

This was a big hit, but hey. My loss is anothers gain, thats why i started this journal! Now i just need to work on spawning them again  the project continues!!

On a slightly positive note, the remaining fry that i did see are looking good and have grown. I've also been watching them eat. SO fingers crossed they make it to adulthood. I know my one LFS has one or two males right now. Over priced but i'm strongly considering going and picking them up. AHHH so frustrated :icon_neut


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

I'm sorry for the loss but at least he didn't munch them all! Is there a way to separate him for the fry it still in the same tank (like breeder box/net) for next round (by the end of his stay) to keep him from eating the already spit out but still in same water incase he spits out a few more?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Bummer!

Guess i can't blame dad for being a little hungry after all that work, though.

Do you only have the one pair right now?


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

AquaAurora said:


> I'm sorry for the loss but at least he didn't munch them all! Is there a way to separate him for the fry it still in the same tank (like breeder box/net) for next round (by the end of his stay) to keep him from eating the already spit out but still in same water incase he spits out a few more?


I have already seperated him back in with his girlfriend. He doesnt have any more in there since he's eating. And your right about him not getting them all! I just fed the little ones and counted 10. Plus they are still tiny so there very well may be more hiding. And they are actively eating and loving the BBS. I was fortunate to find a very generous member who will be sending me vinegar eels and microworms early next week, so that will help.



lauraleellbp said:


> Bummer!
> 
> Guess i can't blame dad for being a little hungry after all that work, though.
> 
> Do you only have the one pair right now?


I know right! 17 days with no food. It is a shame it happened, but its good to know and i'll be better prepared for next time. When you see fry, takes roughly 48 hours for him to release them all. When you have 30 or so remove him. Just not worth the risk over 1 or 2 more fish. Plus, there were 3 deformed ones that were dead and floating. Interesting he didnt eat those??

And currently this is my only pair. I have a LFS that has one or two males but they are way over priced. I have someone working on more for me (actually 2 or 3) but so far things keep happening and i havent gotten more. Hopefully soon. I'd like a breeding stock of 6-8 adult fish ideally.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I wonder if the deformed ones were actually killed by dad but left uneaten? :/


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

lauraleellbp said:


> I wonder if the deformed ones were actually killed by dad but left uneaten? :/


Very possible! It really is a shame but considering it was really the first spawn, i'll be happy with any fry that make it to adulthood. Next batch i'll be ready 

With having the day off, figured i'd shoot a quick video or two. Still only with my cell so apologize for the focus issues. The first is the main group and the second is feeding time. They are so tiny!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUWmbUoN5E8&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woabgkKdkbc&feature=youtu.be

Also a quick update, i just secured 6 more vaillanti sub-adults  they should be arriving Thursday or Friday this week!!

Enjoy and happy Memorial day!!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Just a quick update here for the moment. I have successfully had two batches of fry from my original M/F combo, and a 3rd batch that he will be releasing in about 5 days. 12-14 are the magic numbers for these guys consistantly. Sadly, i was doing things wrong with these small and delicate fish. The first batch was almost entirely eaten by the father and the few that remained slowly died off despite great water params. So the second batch i had over 40 fry and they just slowly died off. Again, perfect water watched them eat. Didnt know what i was doing wrong. Then a local fish breeder pointed out something to me that i cant believe i missed. These fish are tiny, SUPER tiny. I was housing them in a ten gallon right from the start. Sure they were eating, but a trip halfway across the tank for a vinegar eel or BBS is hardly worth it and they were starving/overworked to death :icon_frow I need to house them in a smaller tank once hatched. a 2.5 gallon or even a plastic shoe box. So this time, i am ready and expect to have a successful rearing.

I also acquired 3 females to go with the other males that i have, with only one just approaching sexual maturity so i cant wait to have more breeding pairs  It appears these fish do pair off. I have two other adult males in the tank that have never held eggs from the only mature female in the tank and the dominant fish. Only the original male that i bought with her. So we'll see what happens with these new females as they mature. I will post pics in a few days and likely a video of the new hatchery setup once the fry are released. Thanks for reading!!


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## Mr. Limpet (Dec 26, 2010)

I used to lose many anabantoid fry once they became large enough to take BBS. After growing steadily they suddenly became very thin & started dying like flies. After I switched to microworms instead of BBS the losses stopped.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

sorry to hear. I used marina breeder boxes with my fry. that way they can share the larger water volume of the main tank and i can massively put in tons of food in a small area for the fry.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Good luck with the next batch! Man if only I had the water params for these guys...


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

Mr. Limpet said:


> I used to lose many anabantoid fry once they became large enough to take BBS. After growing steadily they suddenly became very thin & started dying like flies. After I switched to microworms instead of BBS the losses stopped.


Yeah, i have the trifector. I start with vinegar eels and bbs which they can take immediately, then go to micro worms around day 4 or 5. I had some from the first batch that lasted roughly 3 weeks. It was interesting because i was saying how slow of growers they were, yet i could see them eat. Well here they were just burning off everything they ate just going to the next piece of food. This time i have the male in a 2 gallon DBP tank with tank water and a very slow running filter with lots of plants. He should start releasing anyday :bounce: so we'll see how it goes :thumbsup:



dasob85 said:


> sorry to hear. I used marina breeder boxes with my fry. that way they can share the larger water volume of the main tank and i can massively put in tons of food in a small area for the fry.


I for some reason have had terrible luck with breeder boxes. I stopped using them when i was trying to selective breed shrimp and wild guppies with them and getting deaths. That was only with one brand though so that very well may have been my problem. 



lamiskool said:


> Good luck with the next batch! Man if only I had the water params for these guys...


Its not as hard as you would think! If you have access to RO or depending on how hard your water is, i'm certain with peat you could get it down low enough to keep them. Maybe not breed them, but i have kept them in higher params than you would think 


*Edit-Whats a good journal without pics!!  snapped a quick few. Some of the male holding eggs in his fry setup and a couple of the girls out and showing off. Enjoy!


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

So the fry were all released by Monday and the male was removed. Pretty average batch, around 30-40. So far the smaller tank seems to be working well. I have a small, cycled filter, running on lowest flow. I have been feeding BBS, microworms, and vinegar eels. I haven't had any deaths (knock on wood) and the water is from the parent tank running slightly warmer though at 82. Here are a couple pics, the first is from Monday and the second and third from today. I'll try and get a close up video tomorrow. It's so much easier to photo them when they aren't in a 15 or 10 gallon!!


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Their body/fin shape as fry reminds me of elephant nose fish (without the nose). Good luck with this batch!


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## jmf3460 (Aug 21, 2013)

oh my goodness, they are so darn cuteeee!


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## doggo (Jun 14, 2014)

Fascinating journal; great to read such a success story. Your hard work and efforts certainly paid off. :icon_smil


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## Duck5003 (Oct 1, 2012)

AquaAurora said:


> Their body/fin shape as fry reminds me of elephant nose fish (without the nose). Good luck with this batch!


They really do look like those! And thanks  



jmf3460 said:


> oh my goodness, they are so darn cuteeee!


They are a lot of fun to watch motor around that little tank 



doggo said:


> Fascinating journal; great to read such a success story. Your hard work and efforts certainly paid off. :icon_smil


Thanks! My goal was to provide info on this fish as its hard to find consistant data on them. Very hard lol I have learned a lot and these have really been a challenge but well worth it. Hopefully these little guys make it so i can start to offer some. They really are a cool fish! Eventually I'll put together a more "formal" write up in the OP. Then its onto my Osphros and try my hand at them! I also have another mouth brooding species that i've gotten to hold eggs a few times but no fry, but that's for another journal 

An update-they continue to do well. Still no deaths that i've seen and they are eating like crazy. The smaller tank i think was the trick, they are WAY more active due to it being so much easier for them to eat. Took a quick cell video of the morning feeding. BBS was on the menu. For some reason i'm having trouble embedding the video so be sure to click the link. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmFBjGzjiDo&feature=youtu.be

Thanks for looking!!


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## doggo (Jun 14, 2014)

I think it's great information whether any of us ever try to breed these guys or not - lots of variables to consider no matter what species one's dealing with.


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## Grah the great (Jul 3, 2013)

Congrats on the recent spawns! I hope that the fry continue to do well.


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

Can we get an update? Were you able to raise the fry?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Please update!!

I want to breed the chocolate gourami. Just haven't found a female yet.

I am amazed that you get white cloud minnows with the gouramis for they are cold water fish. My son-in-law has them and they breed all of the time. They don't eat their fry. Did your minnows breed? They would provide some natural food for the gourami.


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## Tristin (Jul 19, 2016)

This is defiantly an awesome thread, I am planning on setting up a four foot species tank for Chocolate Gourami's. If you intend to breed these fish, be aware that the reason soft water and low PH is so important is that less bacteria inhabit these sorts of environments and thus, Chocolate Gourami's have a very low immune system because of this. The fry will be particularly susceptible to disease and bacterial infections.

Bump: This is defiantly an awesome thread, I am planning on setting up a four foot species tank for Chocolate Gourami's. If you intend to breed these fish, be aware that the reason soft water and low PH is so important is that less bacteria inhabit these sorts of environments and thus, Chocolate Gourami's have a very low immune system because of this. The fry will be particularly susceptible to disease and bacterial infections.


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