# anyone interested in a DIY canister filter thread?



## bobalston (Nov 8, 2003)

Sure why not.


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

ill read and absorb as much detail as you are willing to write. i am considering building one myself soon when/if i finish all of my other projects.

what did you use to build it?

how big is the tank you will be filtering?

what media and pump are you using?

and show me all the pics you can be bothered uploading


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## CLASSIC (Feb 25, 2009)

Sounds neat! Pictures would be nice, i am curious now as to what this looks like.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Spill the beans. Nothing better than a good DIY thread.


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## Robotguy (Jan 24, 2010)

I'd like to see what you've done also. I've been considering a DIY see-through canister.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Alright, I'm at work right now, but I'll take some pics tonight of everything. They'll probably be uploaded tomorrow or the next day.

What I used to build it: two rubbermaid containers with a latch on each side (4 total) I've heard these work pretty well, with regard to leaks. We'll see...

The tank I'm filtering is only 10 gallons. I'm planning on upgrading to something MUCH larger once we move in about a year and a half. I may have to swap the pump out with something larger, but I think this filter will be big enough for a much larger tank. Also, there are two main reasons I wanted a canister filter for this tank. Every Sunday, when I do water changes, there is always a little ammonia in the tank, and nitrates are pretty high. Basically, I bought too many fish for the tank, (just got started in the hobby this summer, didn't know any better) and now it's overstocked. All the fish have plenty of room to swim, because most of them are nocturnal, but that doesn't change the bio-load. So I need a really good filter to help take care of this extra ammonia and nitrate. 
Also, I have a stone wall for a background, and it keeps getting covered in silt/sand. I made a vertical spray bar which will blow water through the holes in the stone wall, therefore cleaning it of any debri (hopefully) Hence a gallon canister filter for a 10 gallon tank.

Prefilter media is Hagen Fluval External Power Filter Media (ceramic)
Mechanical filter is about 3 inches of filter floss
Bio filter is Fluval bio max

Question on this, does this sound like a good set up? I just kinda guessed, and figured this would be a good combination. Any thoughts?

And the pump is a hydor 160 gph pump. Now, 160 gph, in a perfect world, would circulate the water 16 times in an hour. But after pulling it through all the filtering media, valves, etc. I'm hoping on hitting 80 gph. We'll see.

Pics to come! And if the filter actually works the way I plan, there's no leaks, etc. Then I'll put together a step by step on how I did it. Although, any average DIYer will be able to look at the pics, and see what was done.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Alright, so I have never... ever... failed at something so amazingly. The rubbermaid lock-its containers, don't seal. AT ALL! They are more built to keep things from splashing out of a container, then to keep things water tight. Also, the 160 gph pump that I have, won't hardly pump any water whatsoever. There might be vapor lock somewhere in the line, but it doesn't really matter since the containers won't seal. I'm debating wether or not to get a piece of 4 inch PVC, and making another one, or just throwing in the towel (NOT very common for me). But as this project has cost almost as much as a canister filter in the first place, and doesn't work... it kinda seems pointless to bring this frankenstein back from the dead, when I can buy a Marilyn Monroe for the same price.

I can salvage the plumbing, and I haven't cut the acrylic tubing yet, so that is good to go. But I would need a new pump, pvc, and a few more fittings... I can still put together a thread on how to NOT build a canister filter, I suppose.


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## Kibblemania1414 (Feb 1, 2011)

GL finding a way around your problems! PM me about this thread when you have it up and running! GL!


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## bobalston (Nov 8, 2003)

Handling water pressure is a key point of failure in canister filter DIY projects.

take a look at this thread

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...6710-any-successful-diy-canister-not-pvc.html

Bob


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

> it kinda seems pointless to bring this frankenstein back from the dead, when I can buy a Marilyn Monroe for the same price.


Marilyn Monroe sure might look pretty, but you can say you built frankenstein.

Keep it up and im sure youll solve your problems.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Successful DIY canister filters are rare, from what I read here and in other forums. Unless you can tolerate dumping a tankful of water on the floor I don't think making a canister filter is a good idea. They are not overpriced, considering what they do, and there is a range of prices on them.


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

If you make your own lily tubes for the intake and outflow I bet you'll save a ton. I haven't seen any reasonable prices for these items.

http://www.rickwrench.com/index79master.htm?http://www.rickwrench.com/2,5gpicotope.html

This guy has a cool diy canister, not sure if the link will work due to frames.


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## Robotguy (Jan 24, 2010)

VaultBoy said:


> Marilyn Monroe sure might look pretty, but you can say you built frankenstein.


That's the best defense of DIY I've ever heard! So many people think DIY is always about saving money.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

The problem with DIY canister filters is always sealing it. 
Purchase a used stainless steal pressure cooker. 
Drill and tap, or weld connectors in place.


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## redfishsc (Aug 29, 2010)

[email protected] said:


> The problem with DIY canister filters is always sealing it.
> Purchase a used stainless steal pressure cooker.
> Drill and tap, or weld connectors in place.



I have to admit, I stand in awe of the simplicity of this idea. You could cut a few holes in it (the bottom) and just use some standard bulkhead fittings.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

"Purchase" a used Stainless Steel pressure cooker - $??
Weld connectors in place, welding some stainless steels not generally a DIY operation - $??
Buy quick disconnect fittings or shutoff valves - $??
Buy hoses as required - $??
Make inlet/outlet tubes to go into tank - $??

We are getting up near what a lower cost canister filter sells for.


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

i think you could easily and safely build a leak free canister using 4 or 6 inch pvc sewer pipe. i dont know what kind of fittings you have available in america but here in oz we have fittings which would be perfect for the ends with o-ring sealed and bolted caps. then using bulkhead fittings through the caps with home made acrylic lily pipes and a pump your set. keep up the effort


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## DvsDev (Dec 7, 2010)

I made one using a preserve jar and 2x top hat grommets, some rigid 13mm plastic tube and filter floss to polish the water.
It worked but I just wasn't happy with my results and might try with a bigger canister.
I got around the pump issue of cutting the lead by leaving the pump in the tank and pumping the water to the jar and back to the tank.
Not ideal but it worked, I used about 6 variants of the clip type of canister but could never get a seal good enough on the lid, I would recommend trying glass if you do try to do it still.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Water Filter housing has been a good option. Someone built one using the Pentek Big Blue. There is a thread on it here somewhere. Thing was killer looking.


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## TRD_Power (Aug 6, 2010)

Hoppy said:


> "Purchase" a used Stainless Steel pressure cooker - $??
> Weld connectors in place, welding some stainless steels not generally a DIY operation - $??
> Buy quick disconnect fittings or shutoff valves - $??
> Buy hoses as required - $??
> ...


Yeah, my pressure cooker was around $70. This is kinda spendy. You CAN buy some cheap-o's for about $30.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> ...
> We are getting up near what a lower cost canister filter sells for.


Yes. 
That's the real problem with DIY canister filter projects. To make them as good as commercial units one usually ends up spending more than the commercial unit costs. 
I love DIY. I'd never purchase a stand for instance. Some things are just better done by spending the money for the commercial version.


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## killerwhale (Feb 21, 2011)

*6in dwv pipe*

Hey I have been down this road!
First I used homedepot buckets with their lids glued on. They couldnt take the pressure. Then I used a very large bucket used to store 100lbs of chlorine. It lasted for awhile then the top split while I was on a camping trip...bye bye water. I broke down and built one out of PVC.

I have successfully used schedule 40 6in pipe and caps to make a pill like container which I filled with sand, and then had a valve assembly to reverse the flow to backwash the filter...just like a mini pool filter. The problem you would run into making a canister filter out of these materials is finding the required parts to make a removable and sealed hatch. All fittings in the 4-6" range are DVW, meaning they dont seal for pressure, especially the threaded plugs. The thing is, after you hunt down and buy all the parts for your DIY filter, your better off buying an ehiem. I was charged $13 for ONE 6" cap, you can get the pipe for free though if your nice.

Then you need to have the tools to drill and tap threaded holes you will need in the pipe...a 3/4" tap isn't exactly cheap or easy to find.

I am working on an erosion feeder for a pool with a removable hatch made from the same materials I used for my filters, and some industrial grade clasps. I think the last step is taking the cap to the machine shop to get a groove milled for an oring. I could take some pictures if you like. 

Unless your filtering 100+ gallons just get an ehiem, you will be happy.​


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

VaultBoy said:


> Marilyn Monroe sure might look pretty, but you can say you built frankenstein.


 
Alright, Y'all talked me into it. I'll even put up some pics of frankenstein 1.0.

Hoppy, thanks for the advice, but now it's a challenge. I'll probably be twice the price of a canister filter into this bad boy once I'm done, but I can afford it. Like I said in the beginning, had I looked into the numbers a bit more, I would have realized that there was no financial benefit to building one, instead of buying one. Now it's more about building my frankenstein.

I got a couple water tight clear acrylic boxes from the boating section of wal-mart. It has a hinge on one side, and two clamps on the other. However, it also has a place for a strap to go around the entire canister, so I'll be able to gorilla fist the strap down, to help keep the seal.

Here comes frankenstein 2.0!


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## bobalston (Nov 8, 2003)

Don't forget the shop vac to suck up the water <grin>

Bob


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

bobalston said:


> Don't forget the shop vac to suck up the water <grin>
> 
> Bob


And, how much does a divorce cost???:icon_mrgr


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## killerwhale (Feb 21, 2011)

I would love to see a picture of these acrylic trunks you speak of. Its not a pelican case is it? If so that's a pretty penny!


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

Being a plumber i can tell you that DWV PVC fittings will hold at least 6m of head if glued properly and they will outlast the tank they are servicing.

i cant wait to see some pics of the new "Frank"


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I'll get some pics of old frank as well as new frank up here as soon as frank 2.0 is finished. The acrylic cases certainly shouldn't be referred to as a "trunk" these things are more for a couple wallets and cell phones, and then strap the container down to part of your boat. Regardless, I finished the first portion of the filter two nights ago. Hopefully I have time tonight to do a little more work to it. I picked up a new pump, and unfortunately the inflow and outflow are not standard plumbing sizes, so now I'm going to have to figure out how to make everything fit together correctly.

...I think I'll be spending a lot more quality time with my dremel then my wife will prefer...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

You are sure building up some tension. :icon_cool

I built a canister filter using a 2 gal Rubbermaid thermos/cooler. It worked, but the $58 ebay canister works and looks sooo much better. Hard to beat economies of scale when it comes to canister filters.


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

Two things i want to point out. First, you dont always have wide choice of filters to buy and second, even if you do, maybe you dont really have the money. So, if you need 500 gph filter its good idea to make one (if you have tools/knowhow). Mine filter costed 100$, store bought filter of that calibre is about 3-4 times that, calculation in my case is clear. I know the risks and minuses of design but i know how to handle them.
And one thing is certain: second after first starting filter you already have ideas how to improve it :icon_cool


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## bobalston (Nov 8, 2003)

majstor76

Why not post pictures of the diy canister filter you built?

bob


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## redfishsc (Aug 29, 2010)

As a side note, for the amount of money spent on a DIY canister, you can probably drill your tank and plumb in a sump, and use a slow water turnover so that you don't offgass your CO2.


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

bobalston said:


> majstor76
> 
> Why not post pictures of the diy canister filter you built?
> 
> bob


I have a video i made during a tests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7h4GfF-w8g


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## killerwhale (Feb 21, 2011)

VaultBoy said:


> Being a plumber i can tell you that DWV PVC fittings will hold at least 6m of head if glued properly and they will outlast the tank they are servicing.


Yes if you glue well it will seal. I was referring to a removable cap with DWV. You cant just putty up 6in threaded couplings and expect them to seal w/o gluing them. If you glue it, then it is no longer a hatch. You are correct but this is what I meant.


Anyone seen these? Seems like its large enough to make a filter for a 20g. http://www.otterbox.com/otterbox-9000-cases/otterbox-9000-cases,default,sc.html
Is your case similar?

Good luck with frank.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The basic difference between a sump and a canister filter is that the sump remains at zero pressure in operation, while the canister filter always has the head pressure of the water above it on the case, because the canister filter is part of a closed loop, and the sump is an open loop. Looking at it that way a sump, an easy DIY project, is a canister filter adapted to DIY. Just a thought.


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

I built a HOB overfolw and sump/filter for my 50g corner tank and its really simple there is a few pics if you folllow the link in my sig. it was simple as is really efective so you could always do that if you cant sort your canister.










this is a picture of the kind of fitting i am talking about using(the one on the left) it has 4 screws to secure the lid on and iss sealed with an o-ring. I will drill the holes out for the screws and put bolts through it.

good luck and i cant wait to see the pics of frank mk.1 and mk.2


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Killerwhale: I'm a little put off by otterboxes, and pelican cases, namely due to the fact that I've HAD to use them in the past, as they were the only things that could hold up with what I was doing (prior military) and they are both GREAT cases/brand names. But like anything else, you get what you pay for. They are really pricey. Then take into account the one time I slip with my dremel and ruin the seal going around the lid, and now I have a dust-proof case instead of water proof. 
The cases from wally world look like they will hold up fine, and I've used the same type of case in the past as a DIY humidor. They are sturdy, just can't be bounced around too much, as they are a little bit brittle. And if my frankenstein is bouncing around... I'm certain that I have some sort of big problem, hopefully not fish related to deal with!

Hoppy: I hadn't even heard of keeping a sump filter until just recently. I'm not even certain I understand how they work. Some sort of float switch that tells it when to start pumping, and when to not? And, anytime I think of you talking, I hear an old, croaky voice, barely able to cover the sound of a whisper, rasping away bits of still useful wisdom. All due to your avatar!
Vaultboy: what kind of fitting is that? It almost looks like a toilet bowl flange without the curved section for the support bolts. Every time I go to home depot, I'm always amazed that they don't have more plastic fittings that can screw together in some different way, and now I have to re-invent something to make it work. Like with Frank 2.o Sink fittings screwing into grey pvc, clamped together with hose to clamp another piece of grey pvc threaded into white pvc ball valve, Why can't they just make hydro-electric legos for adults? But seriously, if you can get me the name of what that flange is called, I will be very interested.

P.S. Camera is now charging. Got a little more done last night, and everything looks like it will work fine. But I have a question, for one and all.

I have two cases, and one sits upon the other. There is a very tiny ridge in the bottom of the case, and a very small ridge on the very top of the case. These ridges just BARELY don't match up. So I cut a piece of cork (to be used as a sort of gasket) and glued it down with silicone between the two boxes with 100% silicone. The silicone is on every surface of this cork that you can imagine. All six sides, plus a bit more for stability. Then I set a stack of books on tom of it while it all glued together. I'll probably drill my hole tomorrow night, through the bottom of one box, into the lid of the second box. So frank will be layered as plastic floor of tub, think layer of silicone. 1/8 inch of cork. think layer of silicone. Roof of plastic tub. Now, my question is, will I be able to just use a an automotive rubber grommet between the two boxes, or should I plumb something? I don't think the rubber will hurt my fish, but I don't know. Also, if the rubber mostly seals. Let's say, 90 percent. Then when that other 10 percent hits the cork, surrounded in silicone, will it just act like a gasket on an old 1937 leather gasekt ford? Swell up a little bit, and then be water tight. I'm a little at a loss, and want to know what some of you other DIYers might think. Pics to come soon. I promise. I've already taken them, but the only I have time to hop on the forum is in bed right before I go to sleep, and at work, where I'm not aloud to have a camera, or upload. Technically not even aloud to come here.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Gatekeeper said:


> Water Filter housing has been a good option. Someone built one using the Pentek Big Blue. There is a thread on it here somewhere. Thing was killer looking.


+1 to that! i remember that thing...


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## redfishsc (Aug 29, 2010)

moonshinetheslacker said:


> Hoppy: I hadn't even heard of keeping a sump filter until just recently. I'm not even certain I understand how they work. Some sort of float switch that tells it when to start pumping, and when to not?



The water flow between the tank and the sump is fairly simple. You have to drill your tank, install a plastic bulkhead fitting to make it leak-proof, and put in a pipe (or an overflow wall around the pipe) that will determine your water level. As the water pump fills your display tank, it overflows into the pipe, through the bulkhead, and drains into your sump. 


The sump will only fill up as fast as the water is pumped into your tank.

The filtrations comes by using anything like a filter sock on the drain line, or placing filter sponges in the water flow in such a way that water has to flow through it to get to the return pump. Lots of ways to do this, the filter sock being the simplest. 


You can also avoid drilling your tank by using an "overflow box" or a weir. Here is a sump/tank in action, done by Melev at Melevsreef.com. 

He's using an overflow weir (top right) but many people just pay an LFS $5-10 to drill the tank and install a bulkhead, which is cleaner and more reliable. 


By the way, the image is showing what happens while the pump runs (which it will ALWAYS run), and when it shuts off (like a power outage). It kinda looks like the pump will fill/drain, fill/drain, fill/drain----- as long as the pump is running, the water is flowing, which is basically 24/7.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

bobalston said:


> Don't forget the shop vac to suck up the water


You mean a Fluval FX5?


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

moonshine: im a plumber in Australia and we call that fitting a "Bolted Trap Screw" and they are used where an inspection opening is brought to the surface of a concrete floor for example. the concrete is finished to be flush with the edge of the fitting and then when you need to inspect the drain you can remove the screws and pull the cover out. i dont know anything about american plumbing fittings sorry except that they are different to ours  so perhaps go to a specialist plumbing supplier/wholesaler and speak to someone experienced... IME hardware stores are useless as far as plumbing supplies are concerned unless you know exactly what you are looking for.

Good luck


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## killerwhale (Feb 21, 2011)

VaultBoy said:


> IME hardware stores are useless as far as plumbing supplies are concerned unless you know exactly what you are looking for.
> Good luck


Ain't that the truth. The HD in my area is getting better about keeping their fittings organized. Nothing I can't stand more is sifting through a box of parts only to find others that people were too lazy to put back in their original containers.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

*teaser pics*

I'll give y'all the rest of the pics tomorrow evening. It's 1 AM, and I am TIRED! But here is Frankenfilter Mk2 (left) sitting next to Frankenfilter Mk1 (right) Although, I'm not sure Mk1 should even get the filter portion of the name, as it leaked so bad, I couldn't use it as a filter.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Alright, here is how it started.

I grabbed two of these from wal-mart. I left the stickers on for the people who were wondering what brand and everything they are.-8 bucks a piece.










Then I grabbed a piece of an old project which as since been dismantled, but would work quite well for a divider inside one of the cases. It's a piece of plexiglass with a bunch of 1/4 inch holes drilled in it.










After that, I used some GE 100% silicone to glue it in.










Then I drilled a hole in the back of the case for an inlet










This is what I used every place that I would otherwise use a bulkhead fitting. My LFS only had really large bulkhead fittings, and these are 2 bucks a piece, and come with a gasket. You can find it in the sink repair section of HD. They are hollow, so I just drilled the center out with a 1/2 inch bit.



















I had to do quite a bit of cutting to get everything situated the way I wanted, but it all worked out. i used an o-ring from the sink section for the exterior side of the fitting.










Next, I had to connect the containers together. I was going to just use silicone, and that's it, but there is a small lip on the bottom of the containers, and a small lip on the top, and I couldn't get them to sit square. so I used some cork that I picked up from the stationary section in wal-mart to use sort of as a gasket between the lid of one box, and the bottom of the other. I used a ton of silicone all over the cork. I thought I had everything 100% covered once pressure was applied, but that wasn't the case. It shouldn't affect anything though, because there's just a small section that doesn't have silicone in a spot that shouldn't be getting wet anyway.










More to come later. Need to take my boy to swim lessons!:bounce:


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

After siliconing the cork on both sides, I stacked a bunch of books on ol' frank, and let it sit over night like that.










After the silicone hand dried for a couple days, I drilled a hole through the containers, to draw water down from the top, into the bottom.










The gaskets that came with those 2 dollar sink repair kits I got were made out of foam, and when I'd tighten things down too tight, the gasket would warp, and pull to one side. So I grabbed some more cork, and made my own gaskets.




























Then I siliconed everything, and connected the two.



















I drilled a hole in the back for the outflow, and stuck another sink repair thing in there. 










And now I have some hoses connected, and am doing a leak test. Nothing so far. But I do have a couple questions for you folks out there. I've heard a lot of talk about any extra air being in canister filters making it sound like "niagara falls" And there is extra air in both containers... I could put in a small purge valve in the top of the uppermost container, but the only thing I can think of doing to the bottom most container is taking out the connection I have in there, and just siliconing the hole the best I can. I'm pretty sure it would still be water tight, and nothing would leak, but I'm more confident in having the sink repair kit clamped down tight.. What do y'all think? Would it leak if I pulled out the connection between the two containers?

So far, no leaks. I'm off to dremel some hose, so I can attach the power head.


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## VaultBoy (Nov 11, 2010)

That looks great keep up the work i cant wait to see it in action... its a shame about frankenfilter mk 1 but its good to know that those containers cant be trusted.


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Frankenfilter mk2 is a nogo. Building a pressure vessel is a hard thing to do! If I could keep the canister above the tank somehow, then it would be fine (one of the reasons I haven't trashed frank, someday, I will bring him back to life!) But as is, He worked for a week, and then I noticed a large amount of water on the floor. Everything I did was fine, but the stock seals around the openings on the plastic tubs just can't hold the pressure while the pump is off, and only held up for a week with the pump running. 

I am mildly proud of my engineering though, as the filter worked exactly how I wanted it to (for a little while).


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

Its just no worth to mess with small filters in DIY. Big ones are ok but these small ones are not lot cheaper than commercial . And in this design i see to much cork which is not really material for filter


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Hrm, I built a potato gun out of clear PVC about 10 years ago (wanted to see the fire when I shot,) it would make an excellent material for the main container of a DIY filter, but I can't seem to find the place I bought it from. It's kinda pricey stuff, but this place sold by the foot. 

The only one I can find that does that now is an aquarium store (with a very high price, fancy that...) You could use a foot of 4" clear and regular plumbing fittings to finish it. 4" DWV fittings are more than capable of holding the kind of pressure you'd use in a setup like this. Heck, they'll hold 90 psi of air for shooting potatoes (for a pressurized air gun, I mean), they'd better hold 3' of water. If you're concerned about that you could order 4" PW fittings online as well, but this would probably just be getting silly with the whole thing anyway...

(Now that I think about it, it's probably still in the basement. Wonder whether some creative hacksawing could make a canister filter for me...)


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

Well the only place this thing leaked was from the stock rubber gasket. And only when the pump wasn't running. Nonetheless, I'm holding on to it until I can place it somewhere next to, or behind a tank, rather than several feet under it. Watch out for a new post coming up, I recently (successfully) made a permanent biofilter for a 3 gallon planted vase aquarium.
I'll be posting it once I haver the time to upload some pics.


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Awesome!


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

I know this thread is old, but I thought I might throw my 2 cents in here...

Why not go to just about any restaurant that sells sandwiches and ask them for a used food grade 5 gallon bucket, and use that as your filter canister? They use them for pickles, mayonnaise, and usually have so many that they throw them away. I know the ones I use for water changes have lids that are so tight that they'd take your fingernails off if you pulled on them wrong. They're also designed to be knocked over and kicked around a walk-in without leaking. Trust me when I tell you that they'd be the ideal way to go for a DIY canister.

So, 5 gallons of filter, and free, and watertight and darned near bulletproof... What do you think?

Cheers


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

That sounds like an awesome idea. I've never heard of them before. Next time I'm at a mom and pops joint, I'll ask them about it. Thanks for the advice!


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