# BBA woes.



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Yeah, BBA is a pain. Direct application of H2O2 or excel will work.

If you're looking for a natural way, Siamese Algae Eaters might go for it bepending on their age.


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## Abrium (Jan 7, 2011)

I'm with green but the one common denominator that I have seen with various types of algae growth is light. You are rocking 48 watts of HO light above a 20 gallon long. The fact that you have that much light with only 12" of water depth could speak to the algae problem. Try either turning one of your lights off or greatly reducing your photo period.

I'm really surprised that you aren't seeing any GSA also.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I have some GSA as well, but it's not major. My otos love it. I scrape it off every now and then with a razor. The weird thing is that I was taking a look at the light charts and it should be fine since it's higher up to compensate for the shallow water. I could try changing the photoperiod...would that interfere with my HC growing too much?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

BBA isn't really light dependent like the other algae. Keep on the fight with it. Eight hours couldn't hurt.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Best way to beat it the natural way is to hit it from all sides. Don't try to guess 'exactly' what is causing it. BBA can grow in the dimmest of tanks, but there is a relation to higher light and it's growth in many situations. 

Problem with many of those 2x24 T5HO is that there is only one switch and both lights being on for the full duration creates problems for many. Ideally you probably only need all the lights on for a couple of hours and you'd be in a better place. 

When I say hit it from all sides, shorten your light duration, change your water more, feed less, stock less and make sure your fertilizing enough to get healthy growth. If you can add some Amanos they will work through the BBA in the long-run.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I have amanos, but they poke the BBA and walk away from it it seems, lol. I can only change water once a week because I do EI....and that coincides with the proper fert dosing. Photoperiod will be dropped to 8 hours. Any other thoughts?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

How many Amanos do you have? You can change the water as much as you want. Just replenish the ferts.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

The three things I've done that have gotten rid of my BBA are

1. Make sure that my Phosphate is between 1 and 2 ppm
2. Make sure my Nitrate is between 10 and 20 ppm
3. I keep my drop checker light green, almost towards yellow.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Hm, phosphates and nitrates eh? Also, I have 4 amanos at current....but they don't touch the BBA at all. I've watched them touch it and back off several times.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

freph said:


> I have amanos, but they poke the BBA and walk away from it it seems, lol. I can only change water once a week because I do EI....and that coincides with the proper fert dosing. Photoperiod will be dropped to 8 hours. Any other thoughts?



Yes, they graze on them. They don't actually eat them. I would think it would be hard for them to eat them since even for a person it is hard to pull BBA off from a leaf. I have 24 Amanos. My BBA aren't getting any less.


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## jakz0rz (Mar 23, 2011)

*Wwjd?*












I went on holiday's for 3 weeks. The person looking after the tank is in experienced so I disabled CO2 injection, stopped dosing ferts. Just had the person feed my shrimp and 9 rasbora's and occasional change out a small amount of water. I come back and I see this. 'DOH! It's been months and I can't get rid of it 

Same sort of situation as OP. HC not growing, but algae is flourishing on all the tips of my ferns, windelov, anubias etc... 

*CO2*
Recently started up the CO2 @ 1 bubble for 3 seconds in my 10g. 

*Lighting*
I have 2x15w screw in self ballasted compact flourscent bulbs and also a 24" t5ho 6500k 24watt which I turn on only for part of the day. I am thinking of replacing the canopy with the 2x15w bulbs with the t5ho. 

*Ferts*
In terms of dosing I only have flourish comprehensive which I add about 1ml 3x a week.


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## Abrium (Jan 7, 2011)

Tell me that wood is burned, lol?

Anyway I'm with Cards


> When I say hit it from all sides, shorten your light duration, change your water more, feed less, stock less and make sure your fertilizing enough to get healthy growth. If you can add some Amanos they will work through the BBA in the long-run.


However, if you're worried about the number of critters needed or going through the additional worries associated with ancillary tank maintenance you could just pick up a single SAE if they are readily accessible to you.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

More concerned with what's causing it than the living control of it....I don't mind the looks of it as long as I know how to control it and let it eventually die off. Could it just be that my HC mass isn't large enough to keep up with the light yet? Also, anything I can do with the light to decrease the amount of algae overall aside from decreasing the photo period? Single-lighting it isn't really an option since there's no individual controllers and I'd hate to run it with just one bulb. Raising it up some more, maybe or would the 8hr photo period really make that much of a difference?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Abrium said:


> Tell me that wood is burned, lol?..


That was my first thought too.




freph said:


> More concerned with what's causing it than the living control of it....I don't mind the looks of it as long as I know how to control it and let it eventually die off. Could it just be that my HC mass isn't large enough to keep up with the light yet? Also, anything I can do with the light to decrease the amount of algae overall aside from decreasing the photo period? Single-lighting it isn't really an option since there's no individual controllers and I'd hate to run it with just one bulb. Raising it up some more, maybe or would the 8hr photo period really make that much of a difference?



I have always found visible BBA to be the result the relationship between the organic content in your water and the light levels you are running. So yeah it could be that your HC hasn't filled in yet or it will help raising your light, but usually if you hit it from multiple fronts it wins the battle.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Well, I've no problem scraping my glass in the meantime while my HC grows in or letting my otos graze on it (the GDA/GSA). I do get a few pieces of BBA growing on the glass sometimes but it's not at an alarming rate. Light is already about 16" above the water surface as mentioned previously.


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## JRMott (Jul 30, 2010)

I successfully treated BBA that was growing on driftwood with H2O2. I found it harder to treat when it was on my narrowleaf microsword, so I manually removed affected leaves.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Still looking for the initial solution instead of having to resort to blasting it with excel/peroxide over and over again.  Photo period was changed to 8 hours today and my regulator is currently waiting for its 24 hour curing period of pipe sealant for solenoid/needle valve connections. Dosed ferts also.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I would start by putting two layers of fiberglass window screen over the light, to act as a filter, reducing the light intensity by about 64%. Then I would put that light about a foot above the top of the tank, to get around 40 micromols of PAR at the substrate, and about 100 at the water surface.

Then start cleaning everything. The driftwood should be sprayed with H2O2 or Excel, out of the tank, and the resulting dead BBA scrubbed off with a stiff brush. The filter should be cleaned, all except the biomedia. Any BBA on any other part of the tank should be kllled with H2O2 or Excel and removed. Any plant leaves with BBA on them should be pruned away. The substrate should be vacuumed. Start with new water, treated with Prime or equivalent, and dosed with NPK and traces, etc. per EI.

With the reduced light, clean system, and new water, you might be able to avoid a new BBA outbreak, if you are also using CO2 at an optimum level, and have a good water surface ripple.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Why the massive cleaning overhaul? And what does fiberglass window screen look like? That mesh stuff in screen doors? My substrate is very clean thanks to shrimps. None of my leaves have or have ever had BBA on them, just the rocks and occasionally the glass. Also, I'm using lily pipes. How can I get better surface agitation without it making the rather loud/annoying trickle noise?  Also, just did a sweep of my aquarium. There appears to be a little bit of fuzz algae on some of the leaves and mainly a thin what looks like dusting of a slightly brownish algae....not sure what kind it is. I'll post pics if needed.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

My tank seems to collect less algae when it is kept clean. If I go over the substrate, rinse out the sponges, scrape the panes, remove less than perfect leaves then the panes are cleaner and the water stays clearer during the following week. Algae use the organics from decay better than higher plants? I think that is the theory.

The screen is just the same sort as used in window screens. It doesn't rust, easy to handle and is cheap.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Great, I've got some spare mesh from when we replaced a screen door and a roll we always keep on hand for patching. Where do I place it in the light fixture....on the top of the plastic where the lights are or tape it on the bottom of the plastic? Also, I notice my drop checker stays a rather dark green during most of the day despite having CO2 running about 2 bps, so I upped the bubble rate. Maybe my diffusion is just really inefficient? I've got it on the opposite end of the filter outflow so it kinda pushes the bubbles down....it's a glass-ceramic diffuser.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I increase the CO2 a bit every couple days when adjusting and pay very little attention to what the drop checker or bubble counter reads. Watch the fish instead and don't change it unless you will be home and looking at the tank often.

Just have the screen between the light and the water surface. It works either way. Even hanging on the metal halide fixtures the screening wasn't damaged by heat. Guessing that is because it is fiberglass not plastic!


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Out of work until Monday (or later) on injury so I've got all the time in the world to fine tune my CO2 once the pipe sealant on my regulator fittings has been there for 24 hours. The HC does pearl very nicely after a water change though....not sure why that is. It doesn't do it the next day. 

Also, is there any problem with using a 24" dual-lamp fixture over a 30.25" long tank (typical 20g long dimensions)?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Modified the light fixture as per Hoppy's recommendations. Is it just me or is this a little dim? Or was my light just stupid bright before? :hihi: It's the baseline fiberglass window screening stuff, not the solar extra whatever.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> BBA isn't really light dependent like the other algae. Keep on the fight with it. Eight hours couldn't hurt.


True but not true. I have had BBA in a low light scenario but it is certainly much worse the brighter the light is. 

OP if you dont have any fauna in the tank you will need to crank up the co2 to keep the BBA away. IT WILL NOT GET RID OF WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE THOUGH. That will take manual removal, H2O2/Excel treatment (Turn off all circulation equip, squirt H2O2/Excel directly on the BBA, leave for 1-2 hours then turn circulation back on) 2-3 times. The low/fluctuation co2 level is the main cause of the BBA. You could also raise your light or run one bulb if your fixture permits that.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Gonna spot nuke it with H2O2 while I'm doing this water change and the water levels are low since it's mainly on the rocks. Also, going to give the glass a good scrubbin'. The light is currently at 12" above surface and has 2 sheets of window screening on it to dim the light as per Hoppy's instructions. We shall see the results! Also, is it safe to infinitely use H2O2 as long as you're changing the water enough/letting it just sit on the rocks?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

It's hard to tell from the pic since the camera and it's settings would have a large result on how the picture looks. What brand light is that?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

It is an Odyssea 24" 2x24W T5-HO fixture with 2 6500k bulbs.

This one to be precise.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

freph said:


> It is an Odyssea 24" 2x24W T5-HO fixture with 2 6500k bulbs.
> 
> This one to be precise.


Don't think Odyssea fixtures are that bright to begin with. Your setup details an interesting paradox. 

You have an iwagumi with limited plant mass, but also a high demand plant. It's high demand to grow it thick and low like a good carpet should grow. So you need IMO pretty good light at the same time because you have limited plant mass the good co2 levels will only go so far since even if you up the grow your limited by the limited amount of plant mass. Last time I checked co2 is not an algaecide on it's own. You'll have to see how it goes with the light at that height, etc, but if it doesn't work you'll need to keep your tank much cleaner by limiting the organic content in the water.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I keep the tank very clean. Weekly 50% water changes as per EI method with topoffs throughout the week and after feeding I vacuum up the excess flake food/pale flakes with a syringe. Also, if push comes to shove I don't mind buying a different light fixture. I'd rather less trouble in the long run with a more appropriate light than more problems with this light.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

freph said:


> I keep the tank very clean. Weekly 50% water changes as per EI method with topoffs throughout the week and after feeding I vacuum up the excess flake food/pale flakes with a syringe. Also, if push comes to shove I don't mind buying a different light fixture. I'd rather less trouble in the long run with a more appropriate light than more problems with this light.


Clean is a relative term. I'm sure you do keep it clean, but if your dosing enough and have light requirements for a carpet than you have to reduce the organic content of the water even more if you still have issues. Iwagumi type setups are harder in this respect since you can't rely on as much plant mass to process the organics so they have to come out. See how it goes.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

What do you mean exactly by reducing organics? What particular chemical levels? I feed minimally as it is...maybe I should be testing my initial water levels for chemical imbalances.


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> If you're looking for a natural way, Siamese Algae Eaters might go for it bepending on their age.


 
If the tank was a little bigger I would suggest Indo or thai Flying Foxes.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

JasonG75 said:


> If the tank was a little bigger I would suggest Indo or thai Flying Foxes.


I Have one. He grazes for the stuff growing in the BBA, not the BBA itself. He's pretty old too, maybe 6-8 years.


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> I Have one. He grazes for the stuff growing in the BBA, not the BBA itself. He's pretty old too, maybe 6-8 years.


 
Agreed, when younger they do go for the algae but after a while of catching the food that is ment for others...well the bba just doesnt taste as good. When mine were younger (smaller) they ate the algea up, now not so much. But they are cute to watch, playing tag.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Playing tag is a nice way of putting it. They're pretty territorial. I had 2 originally.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

freph said:


> What do you mean exactly by reducing organics? What particular chemical levels? I feed minimally as it is...maybe I should be testing my initial water levels for chemical imbalances.


I believe what he's referring to are the usual waste products found in an aquarium - fish poop, uneaten food, decaying plant matter, etc.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Organics are not the cause of BBA. First is no/low/fluctuating co2 levels and second is too much light.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bsmith said:


> Organics are not the cause of BBA. First is no/low/fluctuating co2 levels and second is too much light.


How does high, consistent co2 keep BBA away?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> How does high, consistent co2 keep BBA away?


it doesn't really except it keeps the plants happy.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> it doesn't really except it keeps the plants happy.


Thank you Mistergreen!

Now what happens it's my hearts desire to have a a very sparse iwagumi with ony a few blades of hairgrass around a stone. Do you still think high consistent co2 will keep bba or algae away?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> it doesn't really except it keeps the plants happy.


Pretty much. 

What happens in our planted tanks is that when we are providing nutrients to our plants and these (any of them but especially co2) does not meet the plants needs they start to grow more slowly, not as well or not at all. This allows Algae to either get a foot hold or grow even more prevalently because the plants "healthy/productive growth" is not stopping them from doing so. Co2 is the best prophylactic we have to stop Algae growth. I think its impossible to have a hitek setup with out ANY algae (gsa/gda) but it is possible with high concentrations of co2 and all other nutrients, well balanced/timed lighting to keep the nuisance algae/PITA algaes (BBA, slime, hair algae) to a minimum. 



houseofcards said:


> Thank you Mistergreen!
> 
> Now what happens it's my hearts desire to have a a very sparse iwagumi with ony a few blades of hairgrass around a stone. Do you still think high consistent co2 will keep bba or algae away?


Maybe, as long as you keep the co2 high and do not have a crazy long photo period or an absurdly high amount of lighting.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bsmith said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> What happens in our planted tanks is that when we are providing nutrients to our plants and these (any of them but especially co2) does not meet the plants needs they start to grow more slowly, not as well or not at all. This allows Algae to either get a foot hold or grow even more prevalently because the plants "healthy/productive growth" is not stopping them from doing so..


Ok, yeah I agree. So how does high consistent co2 stop BBA if there is almost no plant mass?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> Ok, yeah I agree. So how does high consistent co2 stop BBA if there is almost no plant mass?


Well, this is a recipe for an algae tank, highlights with low/ no plant mass. Begs to question why have high lights/CO2 if you have no to little plants :hihi:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

mistergreen said:


> Well, this is a recipe for an algae tank, highlights with low/ no plant mass. Begs to question why have high lights/CO2 if you have no to little plants :hihi:


Who doesn't love a good challenge?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> Well, this is a recipe for an algae tank, highlights with low/ no plant mass. Begs to question why have high lights/CO2 if you have no to little plants :hihi:


Yes, of course the setup described would be a prime target for algae, but I'm using an extreme example to drive home a point. You can't always say that good co2 will stop BBA without really knowing how much plant mass is in the tank. In many iwagumi setups you do need high light without much mass so the specs I described do exact if that's what your going for. Certainly you want to keep good co2 always, but it's not going to do much fill the plant mass isn't there. Organic control is relevant to all setups. Certainly you have to work your lights and co2 into the equation. Did you ever notice on most ADA tank specs they list COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand) levels. COD is usually a good indicator of the levels of organic waste in the water.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

So, wait. Does this mean that iwagumi setups have naturally rougher starts than fully planted (stems, mids, etc) tanks due to the grow-in time? Also, does that mean that once the plant mass reaches optimal levels that algae will be under much more control?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> Did you ever notice on most ADA tank specs they list COD (Chemical Oxygen Demand) levels. COD is usually a good indicator of the levels of organic waste in the water.


How do you go about measuring something like this?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

freph said:


> So, wait. Does this mean that iwagumi setups have naturally rougher starts than fully planted (stems, mids, etc) tanks due to the grow-in time? Also, does that mean that once the plant mass reaches optimal levels that algae will be under much more control?


Yes, in terms of controlling algae, absolutely, since your using limited plant mass and most need pretty strong light to grow a carpet thick and low. Some throw a bunch of plants in to help process the waste, but either way you have to be very diligent with light, organic removal.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> How do you go about measuring something like this?


You could certainly google the exact formula. There are kits that will analyze these levels. The organic content of the water in relation to the light, biofilter is key for me.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

mistergreen said:


> How do you go about measuring something like this?


Here's a meter for measuring COD and ADA makes test strips for COD also.

http://www.hannainst.com/usa/subcat.cfm?id=008


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jeff5614 said:


> Here's a meter for measuring COD and ADA makes test strips for COD also.
> 
> http://www.hannainst.com/usa/subcat.cfm?id=008


Thanks Jeff, BTW I'm not advocating getting one of these. Certainly not realistic for most. I don't expect many will have one of these or a PAR meter under the tree this year, but for me when one discusses BBA and other forms of algae these levels are just if not more important since they are in every tank. Again good co2 watching your lights will go a long way, but sometimes it's not enough if you don't have a lot of plant mass and/or need pretty good intensity in a sparse plant. You can also go the other route and simply select only certain plants for your situation, but that might be too limiting for some.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

Would something like an external algae net work for your theoretical high light/fert relatively unplanted tank?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jccaclimber said:


> Would something like an external algae net work for your theoretical high light/fert relatively unplanted tank?


Can you rephase?


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

Sorry, looks like the term is algae screen or algae scrubber, not algae net. Basically you run water over a plastic mesh somewhere outside the tank ('fuge), and blast it with a ton of light light. The algae grows on the mesh rather than in the tank. I've seen it done on ponds where it seemed to work well. There are also a ton of threads elsewhere on the net about people doing it in their own tanks. Most of them seem to be low tech otherwise, so I'm not sure how it would work in a high tech tank. You'd also probably have to add a more CO2 to compensate for the off-gassing as it went over the screen.
Lots of info here:
http://algaescrubber.net/forums/


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Decided to just nuke it with good ol' H2O2 since I found out it just breaks down into water and oxygen. It also makes fissidens float if you shoot it into a patch of it. :hihi: It's currently turning reddish and disappearing. Coincidentally, H2O2 also seems to be a great way to get rid of surface algae on rocks.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Still having new BBA growth even after all the modifications...any clue folks? Also changed my dosing schedule to this:

Dose:
1/32tsp Trace
1/16tsp KH2PO4
1/8tsp K2SO4
(No KNO3 because of nitrates in tap)

Assume 1/2tsp GH Booster total in tank after W/C (added before first new system)

M: 50% W/C, Dose, 1/4tsp GH Booster
T: Wait
W: Dose
Tr: Wait
F: 50% W/C, Dose, 1/4 tsp GH Booster
S: Wait
Su: Wait

Lighting: 24" 2x24W T5HO 12" above tank, 2 layers of window screen added to reduce intensity


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

How is your plant growth? I get some BBA, but only on leaves that are already dying.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Plant growth is alright I think....I've got a little bit on the plants but nothing insane...just wondering why it's still coming back.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

freph said:


> Still having new BBA growth even after all the modifications...any clue folks? Also changed my dosing schedule to this:
> 
> Dose:
> 1/32tsp Trace
> ...



According to your figures and my math, you are dosing 3.31 ppm Phosphate, which is higher than the recommended 1-2 ppm, but shouldn't be a problem. There is even some evidence that higher Phosphate levels can help with bba, all other things being equal. You are also dosing only 4.61 ppm Potassium which is lower than the recommended 10-20 ppm. What level of Nitrates does your tap water have? and what is the reading in your tank?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Tap has about 40ppm nitrates in it and I was getting into the 200ppm range at the end of regular EI dosing since I also have fish in the tank. Small fish, but fish nonetheless = nitrates. How much potassium SHOULD I be adding then? Keep in mind that the K will be purely in the form of K2SO4 to limit excessive nitrates (Iwagumi tank, low intake etc).


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

If you dosed 3 times as much, you would have about 14 ppm Potassium, which would be a good amount. 

I don't necessarily subscribe to the tenants of EI dosing. I personally like to know for sure what is in my tank at any given time. Ei only works reliably in a consistent tank with consistent amounts of ferts that are in line with how heavily planted your tank, how bright your light is, and how hi your co2 is. 

10-20 ppm Nitrate, (40 ppm will probably be all right)
1-2 ppm Phosphate
10-20 ppm Potassium

Do what ever you need to do to keep your ferts in this level. Also make sure your Drop Checker is light green, mine borders on yellowish green.


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

I guess it wouldn't hurt to try to fix the phosphates either....maybe tone it down to a "heaping" 1/32tsp (or I could do 1/32+1/64...I have both)? Also, my drop checker generally goes from a darker green (no CO2 at night) to a lighter green (but not lime) by the end of my 8-hour photoperiod....I'm starting to think I need to get a timer for my solenoid to make it come on about an hour before lights on to stabilize the CO2 levels since I had issues with buildup overnight previously which killed a good amount of shrimp.


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