# The *BEST* (Tom Barr's) low-tech start-up tank method. Easy to read beginner's guide!



## wespastor

I gleaned this article some time ago. It's a good article. And a great place for many just starting out. A jump point if you willl. 

Kind of like the first bike with training wheels for confidence ... after a while takem' away see how you do.

Thanks for sharing.

Best wishes,
Wes


----------



## Nbot

Thanks Wespastor. Someone could also avoid some of the tank startup issues by going "dry" at the beginning if they wanted (but the method described above works ok also): http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ion/52332-new-method-start-up-algae-free.html


----------



## plantbrain

Non CO2 and the Dry start method (DSM) do go VERY well together. More so than amplified CO2 gardening methods.

I'm also curious why folks squabble on and on over wanting to avoid water changes and whine about pruning and maintenance, but then avoid this entire topic or poo poo it like the Plague.

Lack of patience, too much a CO2 scaper snob fan boy.......

You can scape at a very high level with non CO2, just takes longer and you need to learn different gardening techniques, be more patient with plants etc.
It amazes me more do not use this method, ironically, it's often the more advance folks who come back and try it these days. You can still have your gas and do this too, have 1 CO2 gas tank and then a few non CO2, this way you do not get overwhelmed.


----------



## Betta Maniac

plantbrain said:


> You can still have your gas and do this too, have 1 CO2 gas tank and then a few non CO2, this way you do not get overwhelmed.


This is what I have, and I'm thinking that when the CO2 runs out, I may go back to low tech on that tank too. I can't keep up with the growth in the CO2 tank!


----------



## plantbrain

Betta Maniac said:


> This is what I have, and I'm thinking that when the CO2 runs out, I may go back to low tech on that tank too. I can't keep up with the growth in the CO2 tank!


You may not be able too.......but many simply do not want to deal with excessive rates of growth, the DSM allows you to quickly grow the plants in, then non CO2 keeps them there.

This is a wise approach, not low tech really or lesser a skill, or aesthetic.
It's just plain sensible in an often un-sensible hobby.


----------



## Hoppy

That is a pretty comprehensive description of low light tanks, but I do have some disagreements with it. For example, the lighting he recommends, in watts per gallon, should be considered to mean little except for standard light fixtures sitting right on top of standard shaped tanks. On extra long, or breeder, or extra high tanks, those numbers will be far from correct. And his statement that CFL bulbs are less effective than T8 bulbs is clearly wrong.

And, it isn't CO2 that is the criteria for low maintenance tanks, it is light intensity. If you use 20 micromols per meter squared per second PAR lighting - close to the minimum you can use for growing plants with no CO2, and only for "low light" plants, you can still get much faster growth, for almost all plants, still with minimal algae problems by adding CO2 to the tank. The ideal tank has low light with moderate CO2 concentration - in my opinion - and DIY CO2 will work for that for all but the really big tanks.

He also misses the boat, in my opinion, in recommending a substrate. The most effective substrates are the fertile ones, like ADA Aquasoil, Fluval Stratum, mineralized topsoil, etc. If you do the simple mineralizing process on ordinary topsoil you have an excellent bottom layer for a substrate. Top that with a high CEC substrate, like Flourite, and you have an almost unbeatable substrate.

I hope the author will update his otherwise very good article to include some of these points, plus a few others I didn't mention.


----------



## fjc973

Thank you Nbot ,Great info .


----------



## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> That is a pretty comprehensive description of low light tanks, but I do have some disagreements with it. For example, the lighting he recommends, in watts per gallon, should be considered to mean little except for standard light fixtures sitting right on top of standard shaped tanks. On extra long, or breeder, or extra high tanks, those numbers will be far from correct. And his statement that CFL bulbs are less effective than T8 bulbs is clearly wrong.
> 
> And, it isn't CO2 that is the criteria for low maintenance tanks, it is light intensity. If you use 20 micromols per meter squared per second PAR lighting - close to the minimum you can use for growing plants with no CO2, and only for "low light" plants, you can still get much faster growth, for almost all plants, still with minimal algae problems by adding CO2 to the tank. The ideal tank has low light with moderate CO2 concentration - in my opinion - and DIY CO2 will work for that for all but the really big tanks.
> 
> He also misses the boat, in my opinion, in recommending a substrate. The most effective substrates are the fertile ones, like ADA Aquasoil, Fluval Stratum, mineralized topsoil, etc. If you do the simple mineralizing process on ordinary topsoil you have an excellent bottom layer for a substrate. Top that with a high CEC substrate, like Flourite, and you have an almost unbeatable substrate.
> 
> I hope the author will update his otherwise very good article to include some of these points, plus a few others I didn't mention.


Yea, could use some tweaking, but at the time.........he was fine, I could say the same about myself and lighting too if I went back far enough for articles.

"Light meter? What the heck is that?"


----------



## goot776

Careful, I recently used Sundeep's advice about Diamond Black. USE THE GRANULAR VERSION OF HUMIC ACID.


----------



## digitallinh

Stumbled upon this via a google search, wanted to bump in case anyone else was doing this. Been following this guide with good results for the past 6 months.


----------



## jemminnifener

This is what I've been looking for a nice hybrid approach that is easy to maintain. Truth be told, I barely have what is considered a planted tank but it gets kinda boring if you only have anubias, java fern, and java moss to work with.


----------



## exv152

This low tech approach is excellent. I've been using it to do a 125g tank with wild peruvian angel tank. I really love the minimal maintenance required, and the slow growth also works for me. Truth be told, there are many plants that will not just grow but thrive in this kind of setup, but in my experience, it's the wider leafed plants (as opposed to the rotala types) that do well with this. But nowadays there's many to choose from like the many different swords, crypts, hygros, mosses, and grass like plants. I think there's enough variety out there to do a stunning low-tech setup.


----------



## Totenkampf

it looks like sudeep may have gone back and revised his article? I see now mention of CFL vs. T8s, only that spiral CFL are less efficient than T5s, which I can agree with.


----------



## orion2001

Hoppy said:


> That is a pretty comprehensive description of low light tanks, but I do have some disagreements with it. For example, the lighting he recommends, in watts per gallon, should be considered to mean little except for standard light fixtures sitting right on top of standard shaped tanks. On extra long, or breeder, or extra high tanks, those numbers will be far from correct. And his statement that CFL bulbs are less effective than T8 bulbs is clearly wrong.
> 
> And, it isn't CO2 that is the criteria for low maintenance tanks, it is light intensity. If you use 20 micromols per meter squared per second PAR lighting - close to the minimum you can use for growing plants with no CO2, and only for "low light" plants, you can still get much faster growth, for almost all plants, still with minimal algae problems by adding CO2 to the tank. The ideal tank has low light with moderate CO2 concentration - in my opinion - and DIY CO2 will work for that for all but the really big tanks.
> 
> He also misses the boat, in my opinion, in recommending a substrate. The most effective substrates are the fertile ones, like ADA Aquasoil, Fluval Stratum, mineralized topsoil, etc. If you do the simple mineralizing process on ordinary topsoil you have an excellent bottom layer for a substrate. Top that with a high CEC substrate, like Flourite, and you have an almost unbeatable substrate.
> 
> I hope the author will update his otherwise very good article to include some of these points, plus a few others I didn't mention.





plantbrain said:


> Yea, could use some tweaking, but at the time.........he was fine, I could say the same about myself and lighting too if I went back far enough for articles.
> 
> "Light meter? What the heck is that?"


Hey Hoppy and Tom,

I don't know if you remember me from several years ago when I bugged both of you with lots of questions and tried my hand (very successfully!) at growing a dwarf hairgrass foreground for my LT tank using Tom's dry start method. I am infact Sudeep, the author of that article and unfortunately, I've been away from the PT community for several years due to a lot of changes on the personal front.

When i wrote that article, it really was more a way for me to collect all the great information I had gleaned from all my research online and put it in one place so I could go back and refer to it when needed. I have a terrible memory so it has served well. I never expected it then, but that article ranks very high on Google and a lot of people seem to be reading it to learn about building low tech tanks. I'm thrilled that it is helping people get started along their wonderful journey of planted tanks. I would love to update this article by removing any erroneous information and adding any new developments/best practices that have come up over the past few years.

Would it be possible for either of you to PM me or reply on this thread with any suggestions for what I should change/add? I'd also be happy to add links to any other forum threads or sites that might have more detailed information on certain aspects of low tech planted tanks under "further reading".

Cheers and thanks for all your help in getting me started with planted tanks. I'm glad I've been able to give back to the community in my own little way.

Best wishes,
Sudeep


----------



## Hoppy

Having just re-read your excellent article, and after a year of keeping a low light tank, I see something else that would improve the article a lot. It can be difficult to decide on what plants will do well in such a tank. I found that many plants just don't seem to make it, even though I thought they would be good candidates. So, if you were to add a list of plants you have found to work well in that type of tank, that would be very good. One group of plants that would be especially useful to know of is low growing, carpet plants. You did note that HC didn't do well, as I would have guessed, but some of the photos seem to show dwarf hair grasses doing well. Do they really?

There is a big list of "low light" plants in this forum, but, unfortunately the list was mostly made when people considered light only in terms of watts per gallon. A 20L and a 20H tank are both 20 gallon, but the light that would be low light on the 20H will almost certainly be high, or at least, medium on the 20L. Any new list should, in my opinion, include only plants found to do ok with 20-35 micromols per sq. meter per second of PAR.

I'm about ready to re-scape my 65 gallon tank again (I'm bored) and I think I want to do a dry start, possibly with Aquasoil, then follow this method with the tank. So, any information that improves the article will be very helpful to me.


----------



## orion2001

Hoppy said:


> Having just re-read your excellent article, and after a year of keeping a low light tank, I see something else that would improve the article a lot. It can be difficult to decide on what plants will do well in such a tank. I found that many plants just don't seem to make it, even though I thought they would be good candidates. So, if you were to add a list of plants you have found to work well in that type of tank, that would be very good. One group of plants that would be especially useful to know of is low growing, carpet plants. You did note that HC didn't do well, as I would have guessed, but some of the photos seem to show dwarf hair grasses doing well. Do they really?
> 
> There is a big list of "low light" plants in this forum, but, unfortunately the list was mostly made when people considered light only in terms of watts per gallon. A 20L and a 20H tank are both 20 gallon, but the light that would be low light on the 20H will almost certainly be high, or at least, medium on the 20L. Any new list should, in my opinion, include only plants found to do ok with 20-35 micromols per sq. meter per second of PAR.
> 
> I'm about ready to re-scape my 65 gallon tank again (I'm bored) and I think I want to do a dry start, possibly with Aquasoil, then follow this method with the tank. So, any information that improves the article will be very helpful to me.


Hi Hoppy, Yes, I do agree that a list of plants would be beneficial. Unfortunately, I don't think I would be the best person to make that list as I have only had the one tank and I haven't been very adventurous with the plants that I used. Dwarf Hairgrass works really well in a tank with Excel supplementation, but once I transitioned away from Excel and made it a true low-tech tank, it started to die out. Certainly the anubias and java ferns work very well, though they grow quite slowly. Perhaps I should start a forum thread asking for input from other members in this sub-forum to get an idea for what plants have worked out for them in their low-tech tanks. Also, I read your comment about substrates:


> The most effective substrates are the fertile ones, like ADA Aquasoil, Fluval Stratum, mineralized topsoil, etc. *If you do the simple mineralizing process on ordinary topsoil you have an excellent bottom layer for a substrate.* Top that with a high CEC substrate, like Flourite, and you have an almost unbeatable substrate.


Could you clarify that bit about mineralizing the topsoil? Is that the same as cycling the topsoil. I remember that when I wrote this article, ADA Aquasoil was getting very popular but a big thing with it was to cycle it to get rid of ammonia, etc, before you established your tank. I left it out at the time as it seemed a bit complex and challenging for someone completely new to planted tanks. At the time, it seemed like you really needed to know what you were doing if you were going the route of aquasoil. Unfortunately I haven't followed up on substrate developments in the past few years along with best practices.

If you could give me some more details or point me to some forum threads here or on Tom's site, I'd be happy to read up some more and update the article. I just want to make sure that I don't end up getting someone in over their heads by recommending fertile substrates that need more initial prep work. So I'd appreciate your suggestions on an idiot proof guide to setting up a fertile substrate based tank


----------



## moneymark

just attempting a 10 gal lowtech excel tank with both vals and riccia. Will they just grow poorly with excel or flatout not grow/die?


----------



## Hoppy

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027 is a good article on how to "mineralize" soil. Mineralizing means converting organic nitrogen compounds to inorganic nitrogen - nitrates. The article explains how to let bacteria do it for you, or you can bake the soil in an oven to accomplish the same thing faster, but with a good possibility of stinking up the whole house.

ADA Aquasoil contains ammonia, which leaches out into the water for a couple of months or so. That means you need to do lots of water changes for the first couple of months after setting up the tank. But, if you do a dry start, much, if not all of that process is accomplished before you ever fill the tank with water. (I think I am remembering right on this - perhaps someone will correct me if I'm not.)

The problem with deciding which plants do well with "low light" is that there is no easy way to define what "low light" means, without using a PAR meter to measure the light. Some people's "low light" tanks, where plants X, Y, and Z grow well, may well be "medium" or higher light when a PAR meter is used to measure the light. Maybe, the better list would be plants that do well with no added CO2?


----------



## orion2001

Thanks a lot Hoppy. Will read up on that and add to the article. I agree about the low light comment, but the problem is that most of us don't have PAR meters, and probably 80-90% of PT enthusiasts probably stop at the WPG type rules and CO2 levels when determining what plants to attempt growing. 

That's why I'm a bit hesitant to compile a list myself. Perhaps I'll just add some of the no brainer low light plants for now.


----------



## BruceF

D. Walstad has a list of plants that manage on bicarbonate alone in her book.


----------



## Aquaticz

moneymark said:


> just attempting a 10 gal lowtech excel tank with both vals and riccia. Will they just grow poorly with excel or flatout not grow/die?


Val's and excel do not mix ...the Val's will melt


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## wheatiesl337

I was glad to see this revived discussion on the DSM/non-c02 approach. I have been very pleased with this approach. I look forward following this thread, though, due to my limited experience, I am not sure I have much to add that hasn't already been noted.


----------



## cherabin

Hi Sudeep,

My first post in this forum and i would like to extend a big thank you for your excellent article. I've been into low tech tanks for a number of years but hasn't really been able to grasp any of the points mentioned in your article.

Since reading, i had been dilligently following it as a guide and have seen better plant growth etc and able to grow lots of new species. Have also recommend to many friends your read and very confident the benefits from it.

Thank you once again.


----------



## Hoppy

wheatiesl337 said:


> I was glad to see this revived discussion on the DSM/non-c02 approach. I have been very pleased with this approach. I look forward following this thread, though, due to my limited experience, I am not sure I have much to add that hasn't already been noted.


What plants did you do a dry start with? From the photos of your Edge tank, I don't see which ones would work with a dry start, and low light.


----------



## wheatiesl337

I did the dry start with crypts primarily as the rooting plants. A wendtii, a good amount of parva, and one more variety in between those sizes (willisi or lucens or a hybrid, hard for me to tell.) I also had a few anubias that sent their roots into the substrate and did very well with the dry start.


----------



## orion2001

cherabin said:


> Hi Sudeep,
> 
> My first post in this forum and i would like to extend a big thank you for your excellent article. I've been into low tech tanks for a number of years but hasn't really been able to grasp any of the points mentioned in your article.
> 
> Since reading, i had been dilligently following it as a guide and have seen better plant growth etc and able to grow lots of new species. Have also recommend to many friends your read and very confident the benefits from it.
> 
> Thank you once again.


You are very welcome. I'm glad it's helped you and your friends 



Hoppy said:


> What plants did you do a dry start with? From the photos of your Edge tank, I don't see which ones would work with a dry start, and low light.


That leads me to another question Hoppy...do you have a list of plants that work well with the DSM? I checked Tom's website forum thread where he had originally started the discussion (and in which I had posted my results a few years back), but I was disappointed to note that there hasn't really been any more updates/discussions on that thread. Has DSM gotten more popular since then and are there any resources/threads with a list of plants, or is it scattered about on a smattering of forum threads?

After having gone the DSM way with my hairgrass foreground on my first tank, I don't think I'd go any other way when starting a planted tank. The only difficult part is having the patience and discipline to wait it out while your plants establish themselves and take root and start multiplying. The additional benefits of having nitrogen fixing bacteria established via this method is also really nice because you don't then have to worry as much about ammonia and nitrites due to (1) the presence of these bacteria via DSM and (2) Due to your already well established plants due to DSM that will be quick to take up any ammonia/nitrites in the water column.


----------



## Hoppy

orion2001 said:


> You are very welcome. I'm glad it's helped you and your friends
> 
> 
> That leads me to another question Hoppy...do you have a list of plants that work well with the DSM? I checked Tom's website forum thread where he had originally started the discussion (and in which I had posted my results a few years back), but I was disappointed to note that there hasn't really been any more updates/discussions on that thread. Has DSM gotten more popular since then and are there any resources/threads with a list of plants, or is it scattered about on a smattering of forum threads?
> 
> After having gone the DSM way with my hairgrass foreground on my first tank, I don't think I'd go any other way when starting a planted tank. The only difficult part is having the patience and discipline to wait it out while your plants establish themselves and take root and start multiplying. The additional benefits of having nitrogen fixing bacteria established via this method is also really nice because you don't then have to worry as much about ammonia and nitrites due to (1) the presence of these bacteria via DSM and (2) Due to your already well established plants due to DSM that will be quick to take up any ammonia/nitrites in the water column.


I, too, have been looking for some kind of list of "dry startable" plants. The only ones I can recall reading about that work well with a dry start are carpet plants, like HC, glosso (which I tried with some success), dwarf hairgrass, and another one I can't recall the name of. But, none of those are great low light, non-CO2 plants. There are mosses that can do well as carpets in low tech tanks, but they aren't dry start plants.


----------



## wheatiesl337

In my experience, crypts have worked very well as "dry-startable," non-carpet plants. They love growing emergant, put out extremely impressive root systems (which I believe is key to DSM success, right?), and transition well to a flooded tank. These are non-c02 and low-light compatible. Parva would take a long time to "carpet", but works well as a fore-ground plant.

My 50g linked below was a dry-start done entirely with crypts, anubias, and ferns. No carpet plants. The ferns were kinda meh for the DSM, as they didn't root very well. The anubias rooted like champs, and are growing like any other plant in substrate.


----------



## Mxx

As DetMich had informed me, to find which plants work for Dry Start Method you can look at plantfinder by selecting "Can be grown emersed: Yes".
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/


----------



## Mxx

Here is the list which Plantfinder gives for plants that can be grown emersed - 

Aciotis acuminifolia
Synonyms : Acisanthera sp. (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Acmella repens
Synonyms : Acmella oppositifolia, Spilanthes americana
Summary : Moderate
Alternanthera aquatica
Summary : Easy
Alternanthera reineckii 'lilacina'
Summary : Moderate
Alternanthera reineckii 'rosaefolia'
Summary : Moderate
Ammannia gracilis
Summary : Moderate
Ammannia latifolia
Summary : Difficult
Anubias barteri var. barteri
Summary : Very Easy
Anubias barteri var. nana
Summary : Very Easy
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Marble'
Summary : Very Easy
Anubias barteri var. nana 'Petite'
Summary : Very Easy
Anubias gracilis
Summary : Easy
Bacopa australis
Summary : Very Easy
Bacopa caroliniana
Summary : Easy
Bacopa innominata
Synonyms : Bacopa cyclophylla, Bacopa stragula
Summary : Easy
Bacopa lanigera
Summary : Moderate
Bacopa madagascariensis
Summary : Moderate
Bacopa monnieri
Summary : Easy
Bacopa salzmannii
Synonyms : Bacopa sp. 'Araguaia'
Summary : Moderate
Bacopa sp. 'Colorata'
Summary : Moderate
Bacopa sp. 'Japan'
Summary : Moderate
Bolbitis heudelotii
Summary : Easy
Callitriche terrestris
Synonyms : Elatine americana (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Cardamine lyrata
Summary : Easy
Ceratopteris pteridoides
Summary : Easy
Clinopodium cf. brownei
Synonyms : Lindernia anagallis (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Cryptocoryne beckettii 'petchii'
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne cordata var. cordata 'blassii'
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne parva
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne pontederiifolia
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne undulata
Summary : Easy
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Green Gecko'
Summary : Very Easy
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Mi Oya'
Summary : Very Easy
Cryptocoryne wendtii 'Red'
Summary : Very Easy
Cryptocoryne x willisii 'lucens'
Summary : Easy
Cuphea anagalloidea
Synonyms : Bacopa sp. 'Red' (erroneous), Rotala sp. 'Araguaia' (erroneous)
Summary : Difficult
Cyperus helferi
Summary : Moderate
Didiplis diandra
Summary : Moderate
Diodia virginiana
Summary : Moderate
Diodia cf. kuntzei
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Pantanal' (erroneous), Rubiaceae sp. 'Pantanal'
Summary : Moderate
Echinodorus berteroi
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus cordifolius
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus major
Synonyms : Echinodorus martii (erroneous)
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus parviflorus 'Tropica'
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus uruguayensis
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus 'Kleiner Bar'
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus 'Ozelot'
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus 'Rubin'
Summary : Easy
Echinodorus x barthii
Summary : Easy
Elatine triandra
Summary : Moderate
Eleocharis acicularis
Summary : Easy
Eriocaulon cinereum
Summary : Moderate
Eriocaulon sp. 'Goias'
Summary : Difficult
Eriocaulon sp. 'Mato Grosso'
Summary : Very Difficult
Glossostigma elatinoides
Summary : Moderate
Gymnocoronis spilanthoides
Summary : Easy
Helanthium bolivianum 'Angustifolius'
Synonyms : Echinodorus angustifolius
Summary : Easy
Helanthium tenellum
Synonyms : Echinodorus tenellus
Summary : Easy
Hemianthus callitrichoides
Summary : Moderate
Hemianthus glomeratus
Synonyms : Hemianthus micranthemoides (erroneous), Micranthemum glomeratum
Summary : Easy
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Summary : Easy
Hottonia palustris
Summary : Moderate
Hydrocotyle leucocephala
Summary : Very Easy
Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides
Summary : Moderate
Hydrocotyle verticillata
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila balsamica
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila corymbosa 'angustifolia'
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Siamensis'
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila corymbosa 'Stricta'
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila difformis
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila lancea
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Sarawak'
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila odora 
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Guinea'
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila polysperma
Summary : Very Easy
Hygrophila polysperma 'Ceylon'
Summary : Very Easy
Hygrophila polysperma 'Sunset'
Summary : Easy
Hygrophila sp. 'Araguaia'
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila sp. 'Bold'
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila sp. 'Red'
Summary : Moderate
Hygrophila sp. 'Tiger'
Summary : Very Easy
Hyptis lorentziana
Synonyms : Hemigraphis traian (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Juncus repens
Summary : Easy
Lilaeopsis brasiliensis
Summary : Moderate
Limnobium laevigatum
Summary : Easy
Limnophila aromatica
Summary : Moderate
Limnophila repens 
Synonyms : Limnophila sp. 'Mini'
Summary : Moderate
Limnophila sessiliflora
Summary : Easy
Limnophila sp. 'Broad'
Summary : Moderate
Limnophila sp. 'Gigantea'
Summary : Moderate
Limnophila sp. 'Guinea Broad-Leaf'
Summary : Moderate
Limnophila sp. 'Sulawesi'
Summary : Moderate
Lindernia dubia
Summary : Moderate
Lindernia grandiflora
Summary : Easy
Lindernia rotundifolia 'Variegated'
Summary : Moderate
Lindernia sp. 'India'
Summary : Moderate
Lobelia cardinalis
Summary : Easy
Lobelia cardinalis 'Small Form'
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia arcuata
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia brevipes
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia glandulosa
Synonyms : "Ludwigia peruensis" (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Ludwigia inclinata
Summary : Difficult
Ludwigia inclinata var verticillata 'Araguaia'
Summary : Moderate
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba'
Summary : Moderate
Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata 'Pantanal'
Summary : Difficult
Ludwigia ovalis
Summary : Moderate
Ludwigia palustris
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia repens
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia repens x L. arcuata
Synonyms : Ludwigia palustris (erroneous)
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia sedoides
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia senegalensis
Synonyms : Ludwigia sp. 'Guinea'
Summary : Difficult
Ludwigia sphaerocarpa
Synonyms : Ludwigia pilosa (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Ludwigia sp. 'Rubin'
Summary : Easy
Ludwigia x lacustris
Synonyms : Ludwiga brevipes x palustris
Summary : Easy
Lysimachia nummularia 'Aurea'
Summary : Easy
Marsilea spp.
Summary : Easy
Mayaca fluviatilis
Summary : Moderate
Micranthemum umbrosum
Summary : Moderate
Microsorum pteropus
Summary : Very Easy
Microsorum pteropus 'Philippine'
Summary : Easy
Microsorum pteropus 'Trident'
Summary : Very Easy
Microsorum pteropus 'Tropica'
Summary : Very Easy
Microsorum pteropus 'Windelov'
Summary : Very Easy
Monosolenium tenerum
Synonyms : Pellia endiviifolia (erroneous)
Summary : Easy
Murdannia keisak
Summary : Moderate
Murdannia sp. 'Red'
Summary : Moderate
Myriophyllum aquaticum
Summary : Moderate
Myriophyllum mattogrossense
Summary : Easy
Myriophyllum propinquum
Summary : Easy
Myriophyllum tuberculatum
Summary : Difficult
Nesaea crassicaulis
Summary : Difficult
Nesaea pedicellata
Summary : Difficult
Nesaea triflora
Summary : Moderate
Nesaea sp. 'Red Leaved'
Summary : Very Difficult
Oldenlandia salzmannii
Synonyms : Bacopa sp. 'Pantanal' (erroneous), Hedyotis salzmannii
Summary : Easy
Penthorum sedoides
Summary : Moderate
Persicaria hydropiperoides
Synonyms : Polygonum hydropiperoides
Summary : Moderate
Persicaria praetermissa
Synonyms : Polygonum sp. 'Ruby', Polygonum praetermissum
Summary : Moderate
Persicaria sp. 'acre'
Synonyms : Polygonum sp. 'Acre'
Summary : Moderate
Persicaria sp. 'Kawagoeanum'
Synonyms : Polygonum sp. 'Kawagoeanum'
Summary : Easy
Persicaria sp. 'Porto Velho'
Synonyms : Polygonum sp. 'Porto Velho'
Summary : Moderate
Persicaria sp. 'Sao Paulo'
Synonyms : Polygonum sp. 'Sao Paulo'
Summary : Moderate
Pogostemon erectus 
Synonyms : Rotala verticillaris (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Pogostemon helferi
Summary : Moderate
Pogostemon stellatus
Synonyms : Eusteralis stellata (erroneous)
Summary : Difficult
Pogostemon stellatus 'Broad Leaf'
Synonyms : Eusteralis stellata (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Pogostemon yatabeanus
Synonyms : Eusteralis yatabeana (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Proserpinaca palustris
Summary : Moderate
Ranunculus inundatus
Summary : Moderate
Riccardia chamedryfolia
Summary : Easy
Riccia fluitans
Summary : Easy
Riccia sp. 'Dwarf'
Summary : Easy
Ricciocarpus natans
Summary : Easy
Rotala indica
Synonyms : Ammannia sp. 'Bonsai' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Rotala macrandra
Summary : Difficult
Rotala macrandra 'Green Narrow Leaf'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala macrandra 'Green'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala macrandra 'Mini Type 2'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala macrandra 'Narrow Leaf'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala macrandra 'Variegated'
Summary : Difficult
Rotala mexicana 'Araguaia'
Synonyms : Rotala pusilla (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Rotala mexicana 'Goias'
Synonyms : Rotala sp. 'Goias'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala ramosior
Summary : Moderate
Rotala rotundifolia
Synonyms : Rotala indica (erroneous)
Summary : Easy
Rotala wallichii
Summary : Moderate
Rotala sp. 'Colorata'
Summary : Easy
Rotala sp. 'Green'
Summary : Easy
Rotala sp. 'Nanjenshan'
Summary : Moderate
Rotala sp. 'Sunset'
Synonyms : Ammannia sp. 'Sulawesi' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Rotala sp. 'Vietnam'
Summary : Moderate
Sagittaria subulata
Summary : Easy
Saururus cernuus
Summary : Moderate
Saururus chinensis
Summary : Moderate
Sphaerocaryum malaccense
Synonyms : Arthraxon sp. 'Malaysia' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Staurogyne stolonifera 
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Rio Araguaia' (erroneous), Staurogyne sp. 'Rio Araguaia'
Summary : Moderate
Staurogyne sp. 'Bihar'
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Bihar' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Staurogyne sp. 'Low Grow'
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Low Grow' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Staurogyne sp. 'Porto Velho'
Synonyms : Hygrophila sp. 'Porto Velho' (erroneous), Hygrophila sp. 'Roraima' (erroneous)
Summary : Moderate
Syngonanthus sp. 'Belem'
Synonyms : Tonina sp. 'Belem' (erroneous)
Summary : Difficult
Syngonanthus sp. 'Manaus'
Synonyms : Tonina sp. 'Manaus' (erroneous)
Summary : Difficult
Taxiphyllum alternans
Summary : Easy
Taxiphyllum barbieri
Synonyms : Vesicularia dubyana (erroneous)
Summary : Very Easy
Tonina fluviatilis
Summary : Difficult
Utricularia gibba
Summary : Very Easy
Utricularia graminifolia
Summary : Moderate
Vesicularia ferriei
Summary : Easy
Vesicularia montagnei
Summary : Easy
Poaceae sp. 'Purple Bamboo'
Summary : Moderate


----------



## wheatiesl337

I concur with the "very easy" and "easy" designations on the crypts and anubias.


----------



## Hoppy

Based on that list, I think it is safe to say that there are several plants that could be dry started:hihi:


----------



## BruceF

Plants that can be grown emerged don’t necessarily transition easily to their submersed forms. Many would be easier to grow submersed from the start.


----------



## orion2001

Neat list MXX. Thanks!


BruceF said:


> Plants that can be grown emerged don’t necessarily transition easily to their submersed forms. Many would be easier to grow submersed from the start.


I was wondering the same thing. Oh well, I guess I should still be able to make a smaller list of plants that work with DSM...but as Hoppy mentioned, a lot of them don't work without CO2. I should mention that Excel was enough for my Hairgrass foreground and should most likely be enough carbon for glosso, HC, etc.


----------



## wheatiesl337

Can you be more specific or offer support for this assertion? In my experience, I have had an easier time transitioning from emerged to submerged growth rather than visa versa. This has been true in my experience for ferns, anubias, crypts, and lilaeopsis. I have also had no problem with bacopas.



BruceF said:


> Plants that can be grown emerged don’t necessarily transition easily to their submersed forms. Many would be easier to grow submersed from the start.


----------



## scapegoat

Nbot said:


>


in all honesty, this isnt convincing me that this is the "best" anything.

In reality, i understand that a lot of that had to do with plant choices... but it really went from eye catching to drab.


----------



## Hoppy

I found the list from PlantFinder confusing, so I converted it to a table sorted by very easy to very difficult. Here it is:











This is just the "very easy" and "easy" plants, assuming those are most likely to work without CO2. There are 87 different plants listed! I don't see much reason to try to dry start most of these, but it should be possible to do so.


----------



## Cinbos

scapegoat said:


> in all honesty, this isnt convincing me that this is the "best" anything.
> 
> In reality, i understand that a lot of that had to do with plant choices... but it really went from eye catching to drab.


I believe the first pic is with co2 and higher lighting but then converted to low tech...don't quote me on that though, but if you think about it, high tech is obviously more striking than low tech.


----------



## Saxtonhill

Educational thread! 

Also thanks for explaining what mineralizing soil means



Hoppy said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027 is a good article on how to "mineralize" soil. Mineralizing means converting organic nitrogen compounds to inorganic nitrogen - nitrates. The article explains how to let bacteria do it for you, or you can bake the soil in an oven to accomplish the same thing faster, but with a good possibility of stinking up the whole house.


----------



## Hoppy

Since I am about ready to re-set up my tank again, with ADA Aquasoil as the substrate, and I want to try dry starting the carpet plants, I have been doing more research. My once favorite plant for this was Marsilea minuta, but then I read that the emersed version is often much different from the submersed version, making it a poor dry start candidate. Other plants I thought might work, had similar problems. In fact I ended up thinking that only HC, glosso, dwarf hairgrass, and possibly a couple more, would be expected to do well with a dry start. I now think I will use Sagitaria subulata, and a submersed start. Of course, tomorrow is another day!:icon_mrgr


----------



## Cinbos

Hoppy said:


> Since I am about ready to re-set up my tank again, with ADA Aquasoil as the substrate, and I want to try dry starting the carpet plants, I have been doing more research. My once favorite plant for this was Marsilea minuta, but then I read that the emersed version is often much different from the submersed version, making it a poor dry start candidate. Other plants I thought might work, had similar problems. In fact I ended up thinking that only HC, glosso, dwarf hairgrass, and possibly a couple more, would be expected to do well with a dry start. I now think I will use Sagitaria subulata, and a submersed start. Of course, tomorrow is another day!:icon_mrgr


Will this be low tech or high tech?


----------



## Hoppy

Cinbos said:


> Will this be low tech or high tech?


This will be low light, with Excel, and possibly with DIY CO2 if I run into too sluggish plant growth. My light is a DIY LED light that I adjust the LED driver to get whatever PAR I want, within a narrow band - about 15-30 micromols of PAR. It is set for 20 right now. The substrate will be ADA Aquasoil, mostly Africana, with some Amazonia mixed in. And, the filter will be a Hamburger Mattenfilter.


----------



## Cinbos

Hoppy said:


> This will be low light, with Excel, and possibly with DIY CO2 if I run into too sluggish plant growth. My light is a DIY LED light that I adjust the LED driver to get whatever PAR I want, within a narrow band - about 15-30 micromols of PAR. It is set for 20 right now. The substrate will be ADA Aquasoil, mostly Africana, with some Amazonia mixed in. And, the filter will be a Hamburger Mattenfilter.


Gotchya, I know I want to go about mineralizing the soil just like the link you posted, but I currently getting some ideas about going about it. Dolomite and potash seem to be hard things to find around me, not sure what else to substitute it with.


----------



## Viper

According to the article on the first page here, is the author saying that if you intend to use Seachem Flourish, that you should also be using Calcium and Magnesium ferts as well? Are dry ferts OK to use in conjunction with the liquid fert that is Flourish?


----------



## Hoppy

Viper said:


> According to the article on the first page here, is the author saying that if you intend to use Seachem Flourish, that you should also be using Calcium and Magnesium ferts as well? Are dry ferts OK to use in conjunction with the liquid fert that is Flourish?


Flourish Comprehensive is a trace element mix. You can use any other form of aquatic plant fertilizer with it. You can dose the chemicals, KNO3, KH2PO4, and maybe K2SO4 to provide the nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous that all plants need. Or, you can dose one of the liquid fertilizers, like Seachem Nitrogen, plus Seachem Potassium, plus Seachem Phosphorous. There are a couple of sponsors here who also sell good liquid fertilizers.


----------



## Cinbos

I have been dosing dry ferts for about a month and half now. But I have also started dosing flourish, and equilibrium (water is soft in my area).


----------



## Viper

Hoppy said:


> Flourish Comprehensive is a trace element mix. You can use any other form of aquatic plant fertilizer with it. You can dose the chemicals, KNO3, KH2PO4, and maybe K2SO4 to provide the nitrogen, potassium and phosphorous that all plants need. Or, you can dose one of the liquid fertilizers, like Seachem Nitrogen, plus Seachem Potassium, plus Seachem Phosphorous. There are a couple of sponsors here who also sell good liquid fertilizers.


Thanks. I'd probably like to try to stay away from the liquid ferts as they seem to be more expensive than the dry ferts. Except for the Flourish of course.


----------



## Yiannis

Is it good though not to do any water changes at all?


----------



## Cinbos

I was kind of wondfering the same thing. I like to think I am not dosing a whole lot, but who knows. I will still proceed with water changes on sundays, and if I see anything going downhill I wil change up my routine. Trial and error.


----------



## PeterN1986

Hoppy said:


> This will be low light, with Excel, and possibly with DIY CO2 if I run into too sluggish plant growth. My light is a DIY LED light that I adjust the LED driver to get whatever PAR I want, within a narrow band - about 15-30 micromols of PAR. It is set for 20 right now. The substrate will be ADA Aquasoil, mostly Africana, with some Amazonia mixed in. And, the filter will be a Hamburger Mattenfilter.


Hey Hoppy, how is this tank coming along? I am dry-starting HC and glosso in my 5.5g tank and plan on keeping it non-CO2, dosing Excel and Flourish and dry ferts. I've got a 16" Fugeray, which should be low-ish light. Substrate is MGOPS capped with eco. I'm hoping I can get away with just dosing Excel and dry ferts without having the HC go bad after I flood.


----------



## Hoppy

PeterN1986 said:


> Hey Hoppy, how is this tank coming along? I am dry-starting HC and glosso in my 5.5g tank and plan on keeping it non-CO2, dosing Excel and Flourish and dry ferts. I've got a 16" Fugeray, which should be low-ish light. Substrate is MGOPS capped with eco. I'm hoping I can get away with just dosing Excel and dry ferts without having the HC go bad after I flood.


My tank is on its 10-11th day with water in it, and only a few of the plants. I'm still waiting out the ammonia leaching period for Aquasoil, and waiting for the remaning plants to arrive - this week sometime. It will be at least another 3 weeks before I can add any fish. The Aqusoil is working much, much better than when I used soil with blasting grit on top - clear water in two days vs two months, for example.


----------



## ponyo

I'm wondering if someone can help me with ferts. Here's my tanks specs:

-low tech/non CO2
-29 gal, 12" wide, 30" long and 18" high IIRC
-eco complete substrate
-HOB filter
-2x T5NO 18watt 6,700K bulbs (corralife)
-hard water from a well but I don't think it's from calcium because I live in the granite state and there's no lime stone around here. But I do live on an old farm with 18" of farm loam. I think it's magnesium that is making it hard--that's what my mom seems to remember was in the tests way back when
-pH 7.6, no ammonia or nitrites 5ppm nitrates
-I feed every other day
-3 madagascar rainbows, 1 small dwarf gourami, 3 japonica shrimp
-lots of anubias nana and some petite, M. minuta (not doing so well), pennywort, something like coralina bacopa, a tiny bit of dwarf sag still holding on although probably dying, and lots of algae which I think is a brownish-green on the glass
-I do a weekly small water change even though I know you're not supposed to but I just think if I don't do it regularly and I only do a big water change very rarely my fish will kick the bucket as they have in the past when I've skipped a few weeks of water changes out of sheer laziness.

To make my life easier (I am ok at math but not so much at stupid american measuring systems....) I think I'll just go with the given measurements for a 20gal. Is that ok? 

Once a week:

1/8 tsp KNO3
1/32 tsp KH2PO4
4ml of 1 tbs/250 ml solution of CSM+B

I don't want to dose anything that has calcium or magnesium in it. What does CSM+B stand for and what is in it? And how do you guys handle such tiny measurements? Do you make a solution and then dose from there? Or maybe I should just weigh it and then go by weight?


----------



## fjord

*Revive the thread*

Haven't seen much activity here in a long time. Hoppy, how's your tank coming along?


----------



## wrizviuva

Hi - I am in need of some help here. I started Sudeep's low-tech method, but things have gone really wrong. 

Prior to using this method, I was a complete newbie. I had fluval stratum for substrate and was dosing a liquid fert called Ferropol 24. My Java Fern, hygros, and crypts were doing well.

Then I switched to this method, and added some dwarf sags. Soon my hygros and crypts became stunted while Java ferns died completely.

I want to point out that I have very hard water. Could it be that Seachem equilibrium is not a good product for my water hardness, and Iron is reacting with the phosphates?


----------



## beetea

wrizviuva said:


> Then I switched to this method, and added some dwarf sags. Soon my hygros and crypts became stunted while Java ferns died completely.


How long has it been since your plants started dying? And are they really dead or are leaves just browning/falling off? Plants often need a period of adjustment when there are drastic changes to water chemistry (like when you first add it to the tank).

If the ferns' rhizomes are still intact and you can see new growth, I wouldn't worry. Just take out any dead leaves and wait for the plants to adjust and keep the water chemistry stable.

And for what it's worth, I basically follow the that guide with positive results.


----------



## wrizviuva

Hi Beetea - Its been a few months now, so I don't think this has much to do with adjustment. There is clearly something else going on.

Are you using tap water. If yes, how hard/soft is your water?

I have heard that Seachem might not be the best product for very hard water, like the one we have in London, UK.


----------



## beetea

wrizviuva said:


> Its been a few months now, so I don't think this has much to do with adjustment. There is clearly something else going on.


I meant adjustment to the new water chemistry due to the change in fertilization.



> Are you using tap water. If yes, how hard/soft is your water?


Yes, I use tap water. My water is extremely soft. Are you measuring your water parameters (GH, KH, TDS)? I don't know what Ferropol 24 adds to the water exactly. Seachem Equilibrium will increase your GH (as advertised).


----------

