# DIY Co2 Generator, Hagen Bubble Ladder & Co2 reactor to use in a 1200g PLEASE HELP!



## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey Guys

I've never done this before and have only just started researching it so if what I'm trying to do is laughable please be gentle 

Everything below is to go into a 1200uk gallon low light planted fish tank

I'm thinking of making a DIY Co2 gas cylinder made from one of those 5 gallon water bottles you get in offices and filling it with the right ammount of sugar, yeast and water. (A guy on another forum said I would need 25 of these 5 gallon bottles to get enough Co2 into the 1200g tank)

OK so I'm getting way ahead of myself here but I've read about a hagen bubble ladder in which the bubbles from your Co2 gas cylinder travel up the ladder going back and forth and in doing so they spend more time in contact with the water. I cannot find it anywhere for sale in the UK but I thought maybe it would be a better idea to make a huge 4ft+ DIY version of it for the 1200g tank. (It could be in clear tubing and hidden somewhere) PLEASE SEE THE PICTURE ATTACHMENT (and no it's not a screen grab of DONKEY KONG







)

What do you think?

I'm also researching DIY Co2 Reactors which chop the Co2 bubbles up inside them making more surface area available to be in contact with the water. I'd have to either build a huge version of what this guy below has done or build a few fairly big ones.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3l7zxc6TgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xELv1lMjTw&feature=related

Which would be the better route to take if any, the DIY 4ft ladder, a couple of large Co2 reactors or both?

Or am I just notr going to get close with these methods for a tank this size?

Thanks in advance for your time and expertise


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## Trallen44 (Dec 10, 2008)

I am curious since you are going to have it low light, why add Co2? In my low light tanks I don't use Co2 at all.


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## Anupam (Nov 5, 2008)

1200 gallons! DIY CO2 is useful for more like 10gallons. I'd say pressurized CO2 and inline diffusion is going to be waay more effective and efficient. The cost of the pressurized system is going to be miniscule compared to the other logistic involved in setting up a 1200 gallon tank. Any particular reason you want to avoid pressurized? In fact, I'd say go no co2+low light. But if you do need CO2 pressurized looks to be the only practical option.

-Anupam


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## Anupam (Nov 5, 2008)

oh! and bubble ladders pretty much suck. There are better methods. Use at least a powerhead to diffuse CO2 or perhaps a cheap glass diffuser.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

I use two ladders in my 30gallon. Since its going to be 1200 gallons, I would suggest a pressurized system, like mentioned earlier. DIY Co2 won't generate enough carbon to fulfill the needs of your plants in a tank that size.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

1200 gallon? DIY CO2? Why not use an Red Sea Deco Art Nano Filter for filtration while your at it.

This is silly. For the price of a tank that size, why not just buck up a bit more for the pressurized. 



> (A guy on another forum said I would need 25 of these 5 gallon bottles to get enough Co2 into the 1200g tank)


That guy was probably not that far off...


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

Trallen44 said:


> I am curious since you are going to have it low light, why add Co2? In my low light tanks I don't use Co2 at all.


To be honest I just want low light plants because it's going to be hard to light the tank with it being 4ft deep
It's also going to be expensive, I'm not even sure what lighting and how much I'm going to need yet, I've posted a thread in the lighting section on here asking for help
This is the only reason I was going to add Co2 to make up for the lack of lighting



Anupam said:


> 1200 gallons! DIY CO2 is useful for more like 10gallons. I'd say pressurized CO2 and inline diffusion is going to be waay more effective and efficient. The cost of the pressurized system is going to be miniscule compared to the other logistic involved in setting up a 1200 gallon tank. Any particular reason you want to avoid pressurized? In fact, I'd say go no co2+low light. But if you do need CO2 pressurized looks to be the only practical option.
> 
> -Anupam


Yeah I was trying to save some cash, I haven't looked into pressurized CO2 and inline diffusion yet, I was hoping maybe you guys would be able to guestimate how much Co2 I would need to run a 1200uk gallon tank for a say a month
I've actually got a really good deal on the tank, it's a 10ft w x 4ft d x 4ft h fibreglass moulded tank with a 9ft w x 3ft h hole in the front (which leaves a 6inch frame round the front), and it's got a 10ft w x 4ft h x 1inch thick piece of glass siliconed in the front with 3 inch lips behind it to hold it in place. The tank delivered is £1300 which sounds a lot but I also got a quote for an identically sized all glass tank and the price for that was £7500!
The reason I'm getting this size tank is because I've got a Mbu Puffer which will be 2.5feet when fully grown, the minimum sized tank for a Mbu is 1000us gallons.



gmccreedy said:


> 1200 gallon? DIY CO2? Why not use an Red Sea Deco Art Nano Filter for filtration while your at it.
> 
> This is silly. For the price of a tank that size, why not just buck up a bit more for the pressurized.
> 
> That guy was probably not that far off...


LOL I had a bad feeling it would be know where near good enough

Thanks for all your advise guys

If you could guestimate how much Co2 I would need to run this 1200g for a month and also what lighting and how much you'd recommend I'd be really gratefull (like I said I only want low light plants in the tank)


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## Anupam (Nov 5, 2008)

plantted77 said:


> This is the only reason I was going to add Co2 to make up for the lack of lighting


This does NOT work. One element does not compensate for another. If you want to step on the accelerator you need to increase N, P, K, light and CO2 together and in proportion along with trace elements. Otherwise you are creating a system imbalance and inviting algae to step in. 

I suppose you have a very good reason for making a tank that huge. But I'd advise you to let go of budgetary concerns - at least for relatively minor things like CO2. If you are going to have a tank on that scale, you are going to have to lay out some initial dough for things like lighting and CO2. Most cost effective you can get is to have a low light no CO2 setup. Google Diana Walsted and el natural style planted tanks.

-A


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## Anupam (Nov 5, 2008)

To address your concern about cost. Unless you own a sugar plantation, you'd spend way more on the yeast setup (not to mention the sheer hassle of juggling 25 bottles) than a 20lb CO2 cylinder. But you do realize that a planted tank that size would require several thousand watts of light, right? Even for lowlight, I think you are looking at a few thousand watts considering the tank depth.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)




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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

This utter foolishness, stop with this line of thinking now and save yourself the frustration of the inevitable failure you will otherwise encounter.


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## Cactus Bastard (Jun 5, 2007)

epicfish said:


> [ladder]


That was awesome :hihi:


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## John_Auberry (Nov 2, 2008)

why not just use tubing instead of hard pipe?


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow. So you haven't even made a selection for the lighting? Did you buy this tank already? Anyway we can convince you to make a different tank selection? You seem to be over your head a bit. No?

Buying a tank of that size requires homework. I hope that is what you are doing now, not the other way around.


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

epicfish said:


>


I just pissed myself


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

Anupam said:


> This does NOT work. One element does not compensate for another. If you want to step on the accelerator you need to increase N, P, K, light and CO2 together and in proportion along with trace elements. Otherwise you are creating a system imbalance and inviting algae to step in.
> 
> I suppose you have a very good reason for making a tank that huge. But I'd advise you to let go of budgetary concerns - at least for relatively minor things like CO2. If you are going to have a tank on that scale, you are going to have to lay out some initial dough for things like lighting and CO2. Most cost effective you can get is to have a low light no CO2 setup. Google Diana Walsted and el natural style planted tanks.
> 
> -A





Anupam said:


> To address your concern about cost. Unless you own a sugar plantation, you'd spend way more on the yeast setup (not to mention the sheer hassle of juggling 25 bottles) than a 20lb CO2 cylinder. But you do realize that a planted tank that size would require several thousand watts of light, right? Even for lowlight, I think you are looking at a few thousand watts considering the tank depth.


Would 20lb of Co2 be enough for this tank for a month?

As for the lights I've been told that I'll need 1.5w per gallon if I use Metal Halide HQI lights, I've been looking into getting these lights though
(see link below)
http://www.hellolights.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1526
quote from website ''The new I5 series produces PAR light output levels equal to a 400W MH 15k. It uses 40% less energy than the 400W MH 15k fixtures it replaces. The life of the LEDs is approximately 50,000 hours''
If I get 5 that's 2000w $4000/£2829 which is a lot of money but they last for 6 years so that's $666/£471 per year (I might try and get away with 4/1600w)

What do you think about this lighting?

Have you any experience with it?


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

imeridian said:


> This utter foolishness, stop with this line of thinking now and save yourself the frustration of the inevitable failure you will otherwise encounter.


Will do


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

gmccreedy said:


> Wow. So you haven't even made a selection for the lighting? Did you buy this tank already? Anyway we can convince you to make a different tank selection? You seem to be over your head a bit. No?
> 
> Buying a tank of that size requires homework. I hope that is what you are doing now, not the other way around.


Thanks for the concern mate, no I haven't bought the tank yet but I've found a place that will build it for me. The money I'm saving on the tank (about £6000 savings for a tank this size) I think I'm know going to pump into proper lighting and a Co2 system. Yes I'm doing all my homework now hense I'm learning just how far out I was when thinking how much this tank planted would cost.

As for convincing me to buy a different size tank I may take a foot off the height to help the lighting penatrating the water but to keep it 1200g I'll probably add that foot to the depth (front to back).

Thanks for the advise so far guys


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I have no experience with LED fixtures, but it appears that you have a good size budget here. If your looking to buy quality...http://www.giesemann.co.uk/index.htm

20 lb CO2, should last you. You would certainly need multiple injection ports.

What kind of filters are you using for this?


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

gmccreedy said:


> I have no experience with LED fixtures, but it appears that you have a good size budget here. If your looking to buy quality...http://www.giesemann.co.uk/index.htm
> 
> 20 lb CO2, should last you. You would certainly need multiple injection ports.
> 
> What kind of filters are you using for this?


Thanks for the link I'll look into that

I've been told I'll be OK if I use my current 55uk Gallon 4ftx1.5ftx1.5ft as a sump

The design picture is attached, any recommendations/advise would be great


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

55 gallon seems ok, just be aware that every inch in the main tank is about 25 gallons of water. That said, you need to be very aware of where your operating level will be in the sump. During power outage, water will continue to drain from the main tank without being returned back. Your not leaving yourself alot of room for error here considering that one inch in the main tank is almost half the volume in the sump!!

I would consider 75 gallons as a minimum size, perferably over 100 gallons.

You also need to be aware that there will be some slight outgasing of CO2 that will occur in the sump, although I would not overly concern yourself with that. You can just cover the sumps to mimimize this effect. 

Additionally... autowaterchange system is almost a must!! LOL.


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

gmccreedy said:


> 55 gallon seems ok, just be aware that every inch in the main tank is about 25 gallons of water. That said, you need to be very aware of where your operating level will be in the sump. During power outage, water will continue to drain from the main tank without being returned back. Your not leaving yourself alot of room for error here considering that one inch in the main tank is almost half the volume in the sump!!
> 1 inch per 25gallons! I never thought to work that out. The sump has got the 3 holes at the top which lead straight to the drain so it won't over flow though. I was going to design the tank so that it could never overflow to.
> 
> I would consider 75 gallons as a minimum size, perferably over 100 gallons.
> ...


Thanks again


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Unless you run that monster tank as an el natural or non-CO2 tank, you will likely be doing at least 25% water changes every week or two. That is 300 gallons at a time! To make it easier, you don't need to "pre-treat" the change water. You can just run the new water into the tank from the tap, even if it is a bit cold, as long as you change only about 25% at a time and do it fairly slowly. (Think about the size heater or heaters needed to keep that much water at the right temperature?)

An auto-change system would be a drain valve you can open that releases the old water to the sewer or to a garden for watering it. Then another valve to open to let the replacement water in. That is the minimum. To make it truly automatic requires a lot more equipment and headaches.

Unless you are extraordinarily lucky you will eventually need to scrub the insides of the tank to remove algae. Think about how you will do that. And, of course, you will be reaching into the tank to pick up debris, prune plants, net fish, plant new plants, etc. Think about how you can do that too. Big tanks are a whole new game compared to what most of us use.


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> Unless you run that monster tank as an el natural or non-CO2 tank, you will likely be doing at least 25% water changes every week or two. That is 300 gallons at a time! To make it easier, you don't need to "pre-treat" the change water. You can just run the new water into the tank from the tap, even if it is a bit cold, as long as you change only about 25% at a time and do it fairly slowly. (Think about the size heater or heaters needed to keep that much water at the right temperature?)
> On my 55g I do 20%/50% water changes every week, someone on another forum said I should be able to do a water change every month due to the mass of water so long as I don't over stock. To be honest I will be doing weekly water changes though.
> As for heating the water I've read that you can heat the room the tanks in or buy huge heater you put in the tank just like regular fish tanks. I'm going to have 3 polostyrene sheets either 6 or 9 inches deep on the back wall and 2 side walls, I will then carve rocks out of these walls and treat it then colour it. Hopefully the polostyrene should hold the heat in the tank (but yes it'll probably cost a bit).
> 
> ...


Thanks for your comments


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

I've just found this tank, it's 2 ft longer than the one I have planned

Take a look
http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=40732


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

plantted77 said:


> I've just found this tank, it's 2 ft longer than the one I have planned
> 
> Take a look
> http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=40732


Also an active member here! :thumbsup:His Jounal.


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## plantted77 (Mar 15, 2009)

gmccreedy said:


> Also an active member here! :thumbsup:His Jounal.


 thanks mate

I've PM'd him a couple of questions as this tank he built is only 2ft longer than my 1200g so I'm sure I'll pretty much have to do what he did for lights, co2 and filteration.

Hopefully he'll get back to me


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## Porkchop (Feb 9, 2009)

I think it's awesome myself. I say go for it if you can afford it and you know ahead of time what you're getting into. And if you do it, please post pictures showing us as much as you can, this is something I could only dream of having.


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## DJones52882 (May 20, 2009)

wow, you'd have to mortgage your house to pay for the lights you need to get 4ft deep


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## Spork (Apr 27, 2009)

You can also post on barrreport.com about your large tank. His adivce is solid.


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