# The behemoth, the 1600 gallon planted tank



## plantbrain

Here's a pic of the hardscape. 
Took 22 hours of straight planting to complete, the hardscape took about 8-9 hours.

Oh the fish list is not anything anyone's ever done.
36 Champ 10" largest discus I've ever seen
64 altums, yep 64........
60 Rose lines
60 spotted giant hatchets, never seen these before.
Rare plecos etc
Hundreds of nice apistos
1000 Cardinals
100 N espei

I think there's 8 sq ft of HC, oh that was fun planting that perched inside the tank on a warm day

Tenji does the main enginneering, life support, I do everything inside the tank and CO2 etc.

Andy(MBA aquarist), Richard, ugly old me, Mark(Monterey Bay Aquarium curator). We all worked long and hard on this.
The plants pearled 2 hours after lights on.

I'm replanting some things in 2 weeks, hard to find enough plants to stuff the tank.

1000gpd RO system with a 700 Gallon reservior.
7 Fluidized bed filter, 6 ft Biotower, dual reduncy built in throughout the system.

CO2, muhaha........
Two 24" CO2 reactors, two 3/4" mazzi venturis, and two ADA beetle 50's in the tank's corners.

Pure O2 injection and controller.
Maintained at no less than 8-9ppm. 

Nothing like it.

I am looking into adding an ISE NO3, PO4 and NH4 probes for real time measures that are extremely accurate.

The tank is a fish and plant tank, not just a plant tank.


Regards, 
Tom Barr






Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## patchy

wow thats frightening. Cant wait too see it fully develop!

Any monster sized swords in there? I'd imagine them growing to 2-3ft in a tank like that!


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## quilting chick

Wow. Talk about living art. This tank is going to be awesome when it's finished. Please keep us updated as this progresses. I'll have to show this to DH....we're talking about having a very large tank when we build our dream house. Wonder if he'd consider a tank that costs as much as the house? (I think it would be worth every penny!) That bank of lights itself is awe inspiring.

Terri


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## PineyMike

WOW. David Blaine can drown himself in there next time. Where did you find 8 sq. ft of HC?


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## pineapple

Where is it set up? Have you some photos of the room in which it is in? Thank you for sharing. I think you have some way to go before you come up to the reported size of James' tank in Singapore.


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## Mori

Is that at the MBA? Be nice to see something there besides salty fish and trekkies.


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## Brilliant

plantbrain said:


> Here's a pic of the hardscape.
> Took 22 hours of straight planting to complete, the hardscape took about 8-9 hours.
> 
> Oh the fish list is not anything anyone's ever done.
> 36 Champ 10" largest discus I've ever seen
> 64 altums, yep 64........
> 60 Rose lines
> 60 spotted giant hatchets, never seen these before.
> Rare plecos etc
> Hundreds of nice apistos
> 1000 Cardinals
> 100 N espei
> 
> I think there's 8 sq ft of HC, oh that was fun planting that perched inside the tank on a warm day
> 
> Nothing like it.
> 
> I am looking into adding an ISE NO3, PO4 and NH4 probes for real time measures that are extremely accurate.
> 
> The tank is a fish and plant tank, not just a plant tank.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Where are the Discus?


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## conduct

Very impressive indeed!!!
Will there be more pictures Tom? Also is this located in California? I see Mark from Monterey Bay Aquarium which Monterey Bay is located in Monterey, California of course. 
Wow Tom just seen your other post on getting the accounts to do 3 more such tanks for the LA zoo in addition to this one. You are going to be one busy man. When we going to see a book on all your work?
Thanks for sharing.


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## medicineman

I'm interested in the tank's structural side. Care to tell a story on the material (thickness, size, bracings, etc)? 

Around here (Indonesia) they (crazy and rich folks) build tank of such magnitude or even bigger mainly as in wall and not as a stand island tank, so the concern will be focused on a single pane on glass.


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## A Hill

thats amazing! my jaw just dropped when reading the list of stuff... 64 altums!:eek5: 36 10'' discus!:eek5: which im assuming they are wild... rare plecos.....

i dont know... i think the members of TPT should start a nationwide side buisness for this stuff. co'mon getting to play with other peoples tanks... and get paid!

now thats a nice job!

more pictures of everything? please?

- fish newb -


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## JenThePlantGeek

Great looking work Tom!


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## tazcrash69

So, how many tsp of KNO3 are you dosing on M, W, F?  

Seriously, I can't wait to see this tank grow in. Looks like a planted tank techie dream come true.

What kind, and how many pumps are running this monster through 7 fluidized bed filters?


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## TheOtherGeoff

thats really cool. i cant wait to see it fully stocked and grown in. keep the pictures comin'


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## fshfanatic

Holy Crap dude. That is awesome.


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## Y0uH0

My God,one look at that tank and i was totally breathless. Looks like your tank is on it's way to a homemade nature aquarium,to put it literally i mean. Though it is smaller than what Amano has to offer,it is already as great as it is. Absolutely beautiful.





pineapple said:


> Where is it set up? Have you some photos of the room in which it is in? Thank you for sharing. I think you have some way to go before you come up to the reported size of James' tank in Singapore.


Sorry i do not mean to interrupt this thread but just a question,you mean there is a mega tank here in Singapore where i live? Do you happen to have any links whereby i could find out more about this mega tank?


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## Lissette

Wow! Don't leave us in suspense Tom. Please post more pics. 

Awesome.


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## fresh_lynny

ok Tom..which one is you?????
lol
Nice project. The wood placement is awesome! And now for the plants....


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## A Hill

fresh_newby said:


> ok Tom..which one is you?????
> lol
> Nice project. The wood placement is awesome! And now for the plants....


im guessing blue shirt... (he said the old guy... but they all look pretty young...) 

or he could be the one in the wetsuit.... LOL

why does tom have to keep us without pictures all the time!

- fish newb -


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## plantbrain

tazcrash69 said:


> So, how many tsp of KNO3 are you dosing on M, W, F?
> 
> Seriously, I can't wait to see this tank grow in. Looks like a planted tank techie dream come true.
> 
> What kind, and how many pumps are running this monster through 7 fluidized bed filters?


Quite a few tablespoons, actually I'm going to cups of KNO3:icon_eek:

The FBF is 7 ft tall.

No fish in there yet, that's a slow process and I am very weird and careful about that.

Dead fish are not things clients like at all:thumbsup: 
Algae plants I can cure/bring back from the brink, not fish.

The fish are already bought and quarantined.

We have a meaty metal stand bolted to the foundation.
Filters, etc are also bottled to the ground, this is LA after all.

The techy side will be cool.
Cooler than any tank running to date.

The client is very into that part and wants to check in on the tank while traveling etc.

So:
Cond
pH
O2
NO3
NH4
PO4
Temp
Redox

All measured and data logged in real time contiunously into easy to use software.

2x 1500w titianum heaters.

I took very very few pics, everyone else was taking pictures of me.
We will get them up as they come in and as the tank grows in.

I still have a lot of work to do on the scape and filtration systems, it's a team of folks, not just me.

Tenji is the general tank contractor and they hire me to do the scaping, wood, rock, all things plants.

I get the fun work and consult for the other items and help do the control systems, testing ferts etc and if anything goes wrong, squirrley etc.

Things have gone very smooth with the set up thus far.
I'm the ugly guy in black.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tazcrash69

plantbrain said:


> Things have gone very smooth with the set up thus far.
> I'm the ugly guy in black.


ok, no offense, but there are 3 guys in there wearing black in some shape or form, and I'm not able to (or just refuse to try to) determine which one is uglier than the other (sorry to your team mates). 

What is the lighting on that monster! I see what I think are both MH, and some type of Flor.


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## plantbrain

I'm the one with shades and the tank top, working under MH's is bad for the eyes.

The lighting is really special.
One for fish viewing, one for plant tank growth.
The color of the bulbs is a key thing for the client to show off his highly covetted fish community, we will also be adding dowward angled front PC's to better light the fish. 12 x 55w.

I wanted to angled the side MH's top get better light.

The 1000w bulbs are head sized.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## conduct

plantbrain said:


> Quite a few tablespoons, actually I'm going to cups of KNO3:icon_eek:


I was thinking around .72 of a cup or 3/4 of a cup for KN03


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## D.gilly

2 things what is the estamated weight and is this that 600 dollar plant order from aquaspot world :hihi:


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## plantbrain

D.gilly said:


> 2 things what is the estamated weight and is this that 600 dollar plant order from aquaspot world :hihi:


A lot and no.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## triple red

that is soooo awesome..... i wish i could build that tank...


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## Hoppy

triple red said:


> that is soooo awesome..... i wish i could build that tank...


It's just glass, angle iron and silicone. Piece of cake. Get a couple of friends to help move it into the house. Go on! Live a little! Of course you will want one of those big wind turbines running in the back yard just to handle the heaters.

If I were involved with that project it would soon become an experiment in growing algae. I do that part very well.


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## A Hill

Hoppy said:


> It's just glass, angle iron and silicone. Piece of cake. Get a couple of friends to help move it into the house. Go on! Live a little! Of course you will want one of those big wind turbines running in the back yard just to handle the heaters.
> 
> If I were involved with that project it would soon become an experiment in growing algae. I do that part very well.


lmao! (but i think its acrylic....:flick

oh and why not take another loan for the tank while your at it?

- fish newb -


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## plantbrain

Y0uH0 said:


> My God,one look at that tank and i was totally breathless. Looks like your tank is on it's way to a homemade nature aquarium,to put it literally i mean. Though it is smaller than what Amano has to offer,it is already as great as it is. Absolutely beautiful.


I'm not after copying ADA or the one in SG, I want to exceed them both and the tank will do just that over time, not because on myself really, but the client.

Unlike most tanks of this size, this one will have a nice diversed community and plant species listing, not just "big"....... and I know it'll all work.

I have 3 more to do in the coming months and they will be even larger.
That does not include the other accounts we already have.
I'm going to be doing a lot of work:icon_eek: 

HC
Hair grass
C parva
Dowoni
Erio cin and seta 
Tonia
R mac
Swords Urguayensis and Reds
Ruffle swords.
Lots of crypt species.........
Lots of ferns, moss, Anubias
Eustralis 
Limnophila aromatica
Blyxa
R wallichii
Numerous stem plant species.


The tank will not look right till we remove the placement ballast stones
Once they have been set, we will fill those spots in and add more weeds.
Then we will add more flow.

the flow pattern is all down each corn and along the bottom rear wall, these all push the water up towards the front weir boxes, there is 2 on either front side with easy access for cleaning.

Effort was done to ensure quiet operation, larger tanks make lots of racket.
There is a food and live food storage freezer/frig in the side equipment and filter room.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Y0uH0

plantbrain said:


> I'm not after copying ADA or the one in SG, I want to exceed them both and the tank will do just that over time, not because on myself really, but the client.


Don't get me wrong,every planted tank owner has his own unique style and try as we may,i doubt any of us can ever copy Amano or any of the big guns out there. Just like your tank's,i can see the difference and uniqueness that they exhibit as compared to what i have seen before. I was just commenting that yours is on it's way to become as great as those who are well known in our community,and i have no doubt about it that it can even get better. Really love the drifwood placement and how natural the entire layout looks. Definately gonna be a loyal follower of this thread.


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## Hoppy

I'm curious: everytime I try to use sword plants, they outgrow the tank. Is this one finally big enough to grow swords for many years? If so, that could be fabulously beautiful.


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## magicmagni

That's Amazing Tom. That is bigger then some fish ponds! I'll be interested in seeing how you set up the Co2 on that tank.

I hope you plan on updating this with more pics as it progresses. I'll look forward to following it.


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## plantbrain

Y0uH0 said:


> Don't get me wrong,every planted tank owner has his own unique style and try as we may,i doubt any of us can ever copy Amano or any of the big guns out there. Just like your tank's,i can see the difference and uniqueness that they exhibit as compared to what i have seen before. I was just commenting that yours is on it's way to become as great as those who are well known in our community,and i have no doubt about it that it can even get better. Really love the drifwood placement and how natural the entire layout looks. Definately gonna be a loyal follower of this thread.



That's the nice thing about scaping. The tanks evolve over time.
Aquarist evolve as well, see the "stages of the aquascaper" I wrote some years back.

It's pretty easy to copy, I've never found that satisfying personally.
I'll do it every so often, but I tend to mangle tanks and torture weeds and look for ways to improve growth.

So not as much scaping.
When I do scape, I tend to use all the surfaces, I tend to do Dutch style patterns, Amanoish foregrounds.

But it's more than dang plants also..........folks often do not get that part.
Placement, lighting position, fish, the tech side, the whole deal, ADA does the photography as well.

We have a pro photograpger coming in a few weeks to do some.
Then later as things mature.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> I'm curious: everytime I try to use sword plants, they outgrow the tank. Is this one finally big enough to grow swords for many years? If so, that could be fabulously beautiful.


Mark and I did some work on the MBA 500 gallon discus tank and the swords where fine, got about 3ft.

I plan on using many large swords for the Piranha tank display.
I'll be 4-6ft deep, more than likely 6x 20 to 24ftL and a heck of a lot of current.

Many piranha are sick and have liver issues from being fat in tanks, they don't eat vigorously. This is cured by making them swim hard against current for 2-4 hours a day.

Sword plants have huge root systems not because they are big root feeders, they have them sdo they do not get swept way and when the water receeds, they have no other choice.

That's why they are tough to uproot.
They are river plants.

So they need no trimming and the fish will have a nice place to get lots of exercise. This makes them much healthier, stronger and better eaters, which everyone really enjoys seeing.

I have a different plan for the Hydrocolyus and stingray tank.
If you have ever seen a 4 ft Hydrocolyus, they are nothing short of awesome.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

magicmagni said:


> That's Amazing Tom. That is bigger then some fish ponds! I'll be interested in seeing how you set up the Co2 on that tank.
> 
> I hope you plan on updating this with more pics as it progresses. I'll look forward to following it.


The CO2 system is quite unique.
Not only does it have 3 types, for ultimate flexibility, it has multiple probves to determine degassing etc and specific locations.

1. 2 large CO2 reactors in the sump, driven by 800gph each.
2. 2 x 3/4 " mazzi venturi valves in line to each return. These need virtually no mainteance and produce fine mist.
3. 2 Beetle 50's with good flow patterns in the tank.

This gives the client the option to add CO2 with dual redundancy to 3 locations and 3 types of gas injection.

Most know how anal I am about CO2...........with good reason.

The layoput is much more Dutch in styling than Nature style.
The client had a preference to Dutch styling so that is what I did.


I will do a more Nature style later perhaps for the client, it's really up the client's taste, some are involved, some just want to look at something nice.
Some like more open designs.

I have a lot of interest now in doing very large tanks like this, which is good because we will being many more from the looks of it.

Tenji does the general tank contracting, I do everything inside and related to plant health, fish health and community dynamics.

It's a good working relationship.

I like the fish stocking list.
I am tired of seeing one species of fish sparsely populated in tanks, the clients love the communities of fish I put together and the suitable species as well.

Yep, I still love fish as well as plants

I also do lakes BTW and large ponds.
6 ft sturgeon swimming around, F2 Trout, F2 Red ear sun fish, you can see them breeding in gin clear lake water.

If you can dream it, we can build it.
I'll post more pics later as they arrive.
Mark and Andy have not yet sent me their pics of Tom the Tank monkey.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## dan888

WOW! This is going to be a great planted tank.


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## TINNGG

Alright, what's the colorful little(?) fish? It's cute.

I wonder how long before the cardinals become part of the menu 

I wish the quazi-local Ripley's Aquarium had something like this. Sharks are more interesting to kids than the average long-suffering mom. LOL!

Their only freshwater tank is something like 12x12x undeterminable due to fake rockwork and houses primarily monster fish commonly (and ill advisedly) available in the pet trade. Seeing the red tail catfish that would barely fit in my 75 cured me of all desire to have one. I'd need a swimming pool for the thing.


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## TheOtherGeoff

bringing this up from the first page..where is this tank located at?


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## plantbrain

Beverly Hills.

Cardinals will be food but are cheap and easy to supply, the owner is fine with that. The cute fish is a Killi, They have done well in large tanks, not so well in med sized tanks, very well in tiny tanks single species only.

Apistos are nice as well.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Brilliant

plantbrain said:


> see the "stages of the aquascaper"


LOL! "Collectoritus".
I think I am at stage 3 accidentaly bumped into stage 4 with recent HC acquisition.

Cant wait to see these Discus!!!:icon_eek:


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## quilting chick

Beverly Hills, Oh, la, la .... next thing you know planted tanks will be all the rage, everyone will want one ..... and they'll want YOU to "furnish" it. What a job, doing something you love and getting paid for it. Congrats.

Terri


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## triple red

Hoppy said:


> If I were involved with that project it would soon become an experiment in growing algae. I do that part very well.


you and me both :hihi:


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## plantbrain

quilting chick said:


> Beverly Hills, Oh, la, la .... next thing you know planted tanks will be all the rage, everyone will want one ..... and they'll want YOU to "furnish" it. What a job, doing something you love and getting paid for it. Congrats.
> 
> Terri


That is the idea, the tank will be seen by most everyone in the industry there.
The owner is a better salesman for the concept than myself, he's very obsessive, but when it comes to plants, and other things, so am I..... and he knows the folks already. 

He wants the other folks to get into it and keep it, not only that, but the LA Zoo and the public insitutions.

Do not kid yourself, this is a lot of work.

Those 180 Gallon tanks are a snap by comparison.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Brilliant said:


> LOL! "Collectoritus".
> I think I am at stage 3 accidentaly bumped into stage 4 with recent HC acquisition.
> 
> Cant wait to see these Discus!!!:icon_eek:


They are bigger than any I've seen.
Some Giant German type.
8 years old or so.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## quilting chick

plantbrain said:


> Do not kid yourself, this is a lot of work.
> 
> Those 180 Gallon tanks are a snap by comparison.


What amazes me is all the prep work that had to be done before the tank was even built. I love the redundancies ya'll have built in. It appears to be VERY well thought out. As an engineer, I can really appreciate the work that has gone into this tank, and not just the planting which I'm sure was a job in and of itself. I'm going to put the LA zoo on my list of dream vacations, so maybe in the future DH and I can admire your work in person.

Terri


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## plantbrain

Well, 
Like a plane, there should be back up reduncacies, if not, you fall out of the sky

So everything should have pairs should one break down.
This has been done on each tank for the critical things.
One item can be driven at full capacity, the other only if need be.

The tank also has Mechical bag pressure filters, to 5 and then 1 micron, lots of UV, the water is going to be clear.

I may add O2 to the Biotower and the FB filter as well as one of the mazzi's.
That will amplify the bacterial respiration and conversion into NO3 and other organic materials that are broken down inside those and the O2 into the tank and via the roots will take care of the rest.

With the O2 controller, I can control several sections of the system independently with the same unit(but need seperate probes), so I can have 15ppm O2 inside the biotower and FB filter, and say 9ppm inside the tank.

Probes are 430$ though.........so that's another 2 x 430$.........not sure that's really worth it, vs adding say 3 bubbles a second into each intake for each filter unit and just seeing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sprayin70

It looks awsome so far!


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## tazcrash69

plantbrain said:


> I am looking into adding an ISE NO3, PO4 and NH4 probes for real time measures that are extremely accurate.


OK, I give.What kind of aquarium computer can take those probes, and give those readings? I want to know more!!
More importantly, how much is it so I put that item up there with the Benz I will never have.


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## BSS

plantbrain said:


> I plan on using many large swords for the Piranha tank display. I'll be 4-6ft deep, more than likely 6x 20 to 24ftL and a heck of a lot of current.


Is it safe to assume that this tank will receive no/minimal pruning? If not, I wanna see some videos of the pruning process. Coming from LA, it could be the next Hollywood smash hit :hihi: .

Great sounding projects, Tom! Please do keep us posted on the progress. Photos of all of them should be SWEET!
Brian.


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## KevinC

tazcrash69 said:


> OK, I give.What kind of aquarium computer can take those probes, and give those readings? I want to know more!!
> More importantly, how much is it so I put that item up there with the Benz I will never have.


I can't say that I've ever seen a phosphate ISE - though I know several companies would love to develop one. However, nitrate and ammonium are readily available. "Real time deployable" sends the price way up. In-lab, a good pH meter that can display mV can accept the probes (about $550 per ion). My experience with the ammonium ISE was that the test solution had to be adjusted (low pH so all ammonia was converted to ammonium), so it was not deployable for continuous monitoring. ISE's also tend to have a lot of interferences: ammonium has problems with high levels of K, Na, and Cl. nitrate has problems with high Cl and nitrite. 

I saw a vendor demonstration of "sondes" which are deployable devices for multi-parameter measurements over extended periods. Fouling by bacterial growth, sediment, etc is one major concern - the link below has an interesting solution. Also, calibration drift must be a concern - limits your total deployed time. Since Tom has these indoors and near the computer, these systems are a bit of overkill, but would work:

Hydrolab DS5X - Water Quality Sondes - HACH ENVIRONMENTAL


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## Burks

That is one great looking tank. I hope you update us on a weekly/monthly basis (if possible) on the growth and problems. 

One day I'd like to have a tank 1/2 that size.....a man can dream!


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## David Hui

Check this out...

Automated Aquarium Systems Home Page


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## plantbrain

Our system is more complex than that design and other loops coming in/out of the lines.

I'll get a schematic up at some point, the engineers have it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

Tanks has some slight algae on glass and some of the plant have a touch of hair algae that was left on the plants most likely.

Not enough CO2.

So we are going to blast 2 powerheads and feed the CO2 mainline and then when I get back there later next week, we can install and nice venturi mist and blast that in a good flow pattern.

4000w of MH lighting is a lot.
We also need to add a Chiller for now since the lights heat things up and there's no fan system yet, and no AC. Temps at 90F, so we want to knock this down to 82 or so till the fans and AC are added.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hoppy

Tom, you need to let that GDA go thru it's life cycle, get really thick and gooey, etc. Heh, heh!! I would have nightmares so bad I would lose my mind if I had to worry about algae in a tank that size. Hey, just put a garbage bag over it? Blows my mind, and I don't even have the responsibility. Maybe add a couple of otos?


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## turbosaurus

Good thing I am typing this message because I can't close my gaping mouth long enough to talk. Are you hiring? I work really hard, and I don't think you're rude at all :hihi: Let me know if I should start packing.

I can't believe you get to do something so great for a living, muy jealous. 

Give us a ballpark figure on the initial set up of that monster, just so I can get the idea of it out of my head. Maybe I'll just fill my basement with water and see how it goes.


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## 2wheelsx2

Wow! Awesome tank! Can't wait to see more photos of the entire setup.


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## quilting chick

turbosaurus said:


> Give us a ballpark figure on the initial set up of that monster, just so I can get the idea of it out of my head.


My guess, and it's just a guess, is that if you had about $100K you could start talking to these guys. Then you would have to figure out how to come up with the rest of the money to finish it. And then you'd have to figure out how to stock it. Can you imagine what the discus alone cost? The owner is probably going to pay a pretty penny for upkeep and maintenance also. 

You're right, flooding the basement would be a lot more economical.

Terri


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## plantbrain

BSS said:


> Is it safe to assume that this tank will receive no/minimal pruning? If not, I wanna see some videos of the pruning process. Coming from LA, it could be the next Hollywood smash hit :hihi: .
> 
> Great sounding projects, Tom! Please do keep us posted on the progress. Photos of all of them should be SWEET!
> Brian.


They use dividers to corral the beast to one side.
Same deal with zoo displays housing vicious beast.

Actually there's a old guy called "Stumpy" that works pretty fast, he has past experince is highly motivated

The tank has some algae right now due to low CO2.
We are working on it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

KevinC said:


> I can't say that I've ever seen a phosphate ISE - though I know several companies would love to develop one. However, nitrate and ammonium are readily available. "Real time deployable" sends the price way up. In-lab, a good pH meter that can display mV can accept the probes (about $550 per ion). My experience with the ammonium ISE was that the test solution had to be adjusted (low pH so all ammonia was converted to ammonium), so it was not deployable for continuous monitoring. ISE's also tend to have a lot of interferences: ammonium has problems with high levels of K, Na, and Cl. nitrate has problems with high Cl and nitrite.
> 
> I saw a vendor demonstration of "sondes" which are deployable devices for multi-parameter measurements over extended periods. Fouling by bacterial growth, sediment, etc is one major concern - the link below has an interesting solution. Also, calibration drift must be a concern - limits your total deployed time. Since Tom has these indoors and near the computer, these systems are a bit of overkill, but would work:
> 
> Hydrolab DS5X - Water Quality Sondes - HACH ENVIRONMENTAL



PO4 are used in wastewater applications.
But the drift, calibrations etc and the intereferences are problematic.
We are not going to mess with ISE's etc, it's too much for the client.
We will use a nice C200 Hanna colorimeter, those are nice, simple and good.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

turbosaurus said:


> Good thing I am typing this message because I can't close my gaping mouth long enough to talk. Are you hiring? I work really hard, and I don't think you're rude at all :hihi: Let me know if I should start packing.
> 
> I can't believe you get to do something so great for a living, muy jealous.
> 
> Give us a ballpark figure on the initial set up of that monster, just so I can get the idea of it out of my head. Maybe I'll just fill my basement with water and see how it goes.


No idea, a lot........I asked that question to Amano but could not give a ballpark for his right away, I see why now.
He said 400K$ later, this is not going to be too far out in many respects.

It's weird learning and seeing many of the same things as other folks independently

Ahh sweet irony:eek5: 

But no ackward, "that's a rude question" here on the web now huh?
Hehe.

I got a lot of work ahead of me.

Regards, 
Tom Barr





Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## BSS

plantbrain said:


> Actually there's a old guy called "Stumpy" that works pretty fast, he has past experince is highly motivated


LOL! Couldn't have come up with a better joke on this one myself! I just hope it's true. Too funny!


----------



## Hoppy

Is this the next big thing in aquatic plant keeping? Multiparameter Photometer C200
Does it do CO2 accurately? How about PO4? Let me just pretend that I am serious about possibly buying one.


----------



## plantbrain

Yep, that's what I use at home.

So any clowns that think I don't test and all.............I do and use pretty good stuff when I do. There's also the Hach 890 and a number of others, but this one is pretty easy to use for most hobby level folks.

Some of the reagents are slightly off in their accuracies, but nothing like the Lamotte and Hach test kits, and several orders of maginitude above the hobbyists cheapo kits.

This would be about the best thing a hobbyist would ever "need".

Hey, if you are passionate about something follow it 120%.
I'm a happy guy doing what I like, helping folks and going to the places I want to go and visit. 

When the plants are happy, I'm happy.
Unless they are weeds, then when I'm happy, they aren't.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

I think when you get to this scale and $$$, having an awesome fish load to go with the awesome scape and plant load is par for the course.

The tank has a little algae right now, due to low CO2, what else is new?

So I have a guy I know down there that will amplify things for the CO2 till I come back on Thursday-Sunday to do some work on it and add some more weeds and touch things up. No fish right now so he can go wild. 

I use all sorts of tools for working on tanks like this.
Namely a pair of angeled scissors and giant tweezers that are surprisingly nimble. 
When the water change is done, 50% of the water is gone, so you have to only go down about 20" since the gravel is 3" in front and nearly 12" in the rear. 

ADA AS is also very neat to scape with if you like slopes, since it's clay and semi soft, you can pack and mould it and make the shape stronger, when planted, the roots will still penetrate and form and nice stable slope. 

I learned this when I was working and standing on the Aqua soil. It compacted together well. There is no power sand in this tank.

There are no fish in there and there will not be the total stock level for about 2-3 months, Shrimps and Ottos are first. Then smaller fish, then rose lines, hatchets etc, Discus and finally altums.

Stocking is an art every much as scaping is.
I'm good at that and the client is good as well. 
Lose a few fish way back when you first started, you get better and better.

Cardinals are fish food essential for the discus and altums, but that's fine.
We are going to use red worms, (earthworms) and purge them of the dirt in the intestinal tract (you place them on the bottom of good size jar, add filter floss over them and add enough water to wet the floss and 1-2", they will go up throught the floss and expel the dirt along the way)- and also CA black worms, also purged via cold mike for several minutes and then soaked in Vitamins and protein powder. Client has a refrig/freezer all for fish foods etc in the back room where the filtration and life support is.
We went around a few times with the live Black worms thing, I know brine and red worms are free of the bad stuff, but we have been using the black worms and consulted the top folks in the USA about it, so I never got any negative feedback and had only positives. I'm still leary because no one has really done in pathology research and that ios what is needed to answered that question well, the rest is speculatory.

We also have several large "dinner plates" in the tank for the fish to feed from. They are large petrified wood pieces that have been cut and then gouged out by a stone mason to make depressions.

No one has done this to my knowledge.
I like one, I think the other 2 are much too contrived personally.
Still, pretty neat and there's a story behind it.
Took them all day to make them.
The one larger 160lb piece looks better because the depression goes well with the natural flow of the piece.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Really nice wood placement. This is an amazing tank and thanks for sharing!! It is acrylic, right? Any idea on the tank's weight before substrate, 'scape and H2O?


----------



## magicmagni

Why is the oxygen injection needed? Won't the plants make enough oxygen? If not though wouldn't ariation in the sump or tank be enough?

On the CBW: I can say that I have not had any issues with feeding them to my Discus. I suppose the only "problem" is that sometimes they don't want anything else they like them so much. I would like to learn more about how you would be preparing them for feed. Did I understand you right that you soak them in cold milk? Any particualar type of vitimin- a crushed centrum or something?

Those bowls sound way cool. That is very creative!


----------



## plantbrain

Update:
Client has not been able to keep the CO2 correct, looks like I'll have some CO2 tweaking/redo yet to do when I get there.
Lots of Rhizoclonium. 

Water change and they cleaned off about 70%.
Not lights for 2 days and some excel, then a water change and 4 hours of MH's.

They had no KH and did not measure it till today after the water changes.
They'd been using pure RO:icon_eek: 

So the pH was giving a false positive.
Suggesting much more CO2 than was actually there.

Tank will need some work.
But nothing I have not fixed 200X before and now they will heed my advice

Clean, prune, fluff, vac.
Water change
Add enough CO2, correct the issue.

Other sign:
Water change = pearling plants.

Plan to change some flow patterns, add the venturi mazzi valves, reduce the MH's down to 4 hours a day.

I did not design the lighting obviously.
But I have to deal with it. The issue is that it's either too much(MH's) or too little(FL's alone). But we can work with the amount of light time with the MH's.

With this much tank volume, it will take a few hours to knock the CO2 ppm down, so after 4 hours or so, the tank should still have ample CO2.


The O2 is a fish guarantee. If for any reason the plants are not taken care of, the O2ppm is still high in the 8ppm range.
No, this will not make the plants pearl more either.
Some seemed to think that.


Food: cold milk, basic milk etc. VitaChem from Boyds, amanioacids, Myoplex weight lifting etc or whey protein etc.

Some items have not been done on the tank yet, so the pushuing to get it done asap is not helping one bit. I should be able to get the support systems up and running asap once I'm down there again.
The client has many other things going on and folks not privy to planted tanks.

So we will go over the main tenents again and get it down so when there are minor signs, things are addressed properly. Same with folks I help here, they do not always do what you tell them, learn their lesson, then work a lot, then solve the issue and see what takes care of the problem in the future.

But the goal is still the same whether you have a 5 or 10 gallon planted tank or 1500 gallon tank, no algae, healthy plant growth, the way to get both?
Focus on the plants, namely CO2. I actually enjoy fixing algae tanks, but the client is flipping at the loss of control when he took over

So I'll go down and get some before and afters.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Hoppy

Tom, all it will take to make us all feel right at home is for you to report that this new tank has brown diatom algae on the plants! You obviously really enjoy a challenge.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, anyone that says there's no bumps in the road is a liar
Most large scale tanks are experiments and things need modified, changed and adjusted.

The real issue is how you handle such bumps and fix the problem quick.
This is true for lakes, ponds, even the old 2.5 gallon nano.
I've fixed many issues and this is no different, just the scale.

I did not get some equipment in time last time, and the overflow weir boxes where not screened, after checking and testing, you spot stuff that would be betetr done another way etc. 

Even a simple system like most folks planted tanks are troublesome for many folks here when it comes to CO2.
Look at the post here.

I nag and nag and spot things very fast, but many don't. I know what needs to be done to fix things when I'm helping other folks, even if they learn the hard way or simply neglected things. Still, the tank will be turned around and that in itself makes for a good lesson. Most would freak, I'm not even annoyed really.

Plant tanks balance out relatively fast when you run them right and inside 1-2weeks, a bad tank can be done right.

Some folks in the local LA plant club will see the tank and get an idea of how I work first hand and see me working on it this weekend.

Main thing is to take a personal interest and care in fixing things and solving people's problems over the long term.

Plant tanks balance out, look good and are very stable afterwards.
A little elbow grease goes a very long way, there are no silver bullets, it's the same old thing over and over.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## IUnknown

I thought these were interesting, usb sensors,
Smart USB Sensors

Tom, do you think those inline venturi's would work for a small tank application. If I bypassed a venturi on my return line, would the mist be small enough?

And what about using an electronic dimmer to get the MH right were you want them. I thought the ACLS - Advanced Control Lighting System could be plugged into any MH system, but I'd have to look into it.


----------



## Betowess

plantbrain said:


> Food: cold milk, basic milk etc. VitaChem from Boyds, amanioacids, Myoplex weight lifting etc or whey protein etc.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



What are you talking about here?


----------



## plantbrain

IUnknown said:


> I thought these were interesting, usb sensors,
> Smart USB Sensors
> 
> Tom, do you think those inline venturi's would work for a small tank application. If I bypassed a venturi on my return line, would the mist be small enough?
> 
> And what about using an electronic dimmer to get the MH right were you want them. I thought the ACLS - Advanced Control Lighting System could be plugged into any MH system, but I'd have to look into it.


Yes, the venturis are unlike any other diffuser, they are like the disc diffusers except they are mainteance free, out of the tank, have water and CO2 moving through it, you get co and counter current effect, disc have no current unless you add it from another source, place to disc in the path.

It will reduce the flow rate from many filters a good deal.

But it's does make a fine mist.
The mazzii's are the best.

I can raise the MH's/reduce change the "on" times that's easier than going all automated, the E ballast can support that(the dimmer idea) but 1000w MH e ballast are not made

Automation has it's price.
I like effective automated things.

Eg
If I'm doing a water change 2x a week 50%, may as well dose manually thereafter.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Betowess said:


> What are you talking about here?


I add the CBW's to this to enrich the proteins/vitamins and get a better balance or each, the milk seems to purge the worm of the junk they have in their intestines. Same with bait red worms added to wet floss, they expel the dirt climbing to drier levels. 

You are left with less [email protected] and more worm when you feed.
Then the extra protein and vits will top things off.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

cant wait to see new pictures sooner or later! 

these tanks this size are awsome! the food dishes sound cool too! but how will you place the food in them?

- fish newb -


----------



## Steven_Chong

Wow, don't know how I missed this thread before Tom, but that is just insane . . .

O.O


----------



## plantbrain

We have 3 huge pertrified wood plates.

These where cut and have bowl like shapes done by the stone mason at the construction site for the home.

I don't like 2 of them, they are contrived, one is not and looks much better.

But no one has ever done much stone masonry to provide fish feeding in planted tanks from what I am aware, no one for that matter.

I still have 200lbs in 2 pieces of petrified wood I may add.
One piece was 160lbs and it's in the tank now.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I was a little confused by the original question too, and I see you've taken it the same way as I did, Tom.

I think the original poster was asking how you would actually PLACE the food on those plates instead of them dropping all over the tank as would normally happen, especially if there was a lot of current in the tank.


----------



## plantbrain

Oh that's easy, 48 " long 1" pipe, the food floats down into the plates.

I had wanted to put a automated arm that did this and have a clear acrylic bowl that was suspended and after 2 hours, lifted out automatically, but the client liked this idea better.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> Oh that's easy, 48 " long 1" pipe, the food floats down into the plates.
> 
> I had wanted to put a automated arm that did this and have a clear acrylic bowl that was suspended and after 2 hours, lifted out automatically, but the client liked this idea better.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Wow, I like the automated arm idea. But I guess too many gadgets (not that there aren't enough already) are prone to the odds of chance failures.


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> Oh that's easy, 48 " long 1" pipe, the food floats down into the plates.
> 
> I had wanted to put a automated arm that did this and have a clear acrylic bowl that was suspended and after 2 hours, lifted out automatically, but the client liked this idea better.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


ohh i figured on the same idea of like a squirt feeder! cool!

lol automated arm.... :icon_roll 

but then again when you arent paying for it!

more shots please? especially of the dishes?

- Fish Newb -


----------



## plantbrain

Heading down now, the local plant group is getting a special presentation on site :thumbsup: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## slickwillislim

Wow... That was the coolest tank I have ever seen. I can't wait to go back and see it when its finished. Thanks for your time and for showing us the tank. I hope your planting went well. I could tell you where in for a nice long planting session. Try not to drown. I hope you don't have any more problems with the co2, and you get all the kinks worked out in time.


----------



## czado

The tank indeed rules. The equipment is of course mind blowing -- big old overflows on either side, redundant everything, two massive drain lines, was it a 1000gal RO holding tank? 700gal?, AquaSoil, MH, just... awesome. The owner will be using software that will beep him whenever any of the measurables are off. The tank is 5ft front to back! Even after hours there I was digesting the size of the tank. Still am.

There's really hard plants in there, too. Tonina "Belem," Eriocaulon cinerum, P. stellata "fine leaf" aka Eustrallis stellata, Rotala wallichii. Its a cool layout -- currently lots of Anubias and Java Fern "Narrow leaf" in the back and stems as a kind of mid/foreground. Lots of cool Crypts. 

Tom holding on to the bracing while he stapled a member's Fissiden to a 300lb piece of driftwood was pretty cool, too. 

The tank's Owner and Tom's crew were very gracious. The owner's experience in the hobby and predatory fish is incredible -- glad he likes planted tanks too  Good times. I came home and couldn't help but babble about it to people with no interest in this hobby.  I can't wait till our follow-up meet.

Thanks Tom. Thanks SCAPE.


----------



## plantbrain

Thanks for you folks coming out, I managed to work in some of the weeds 
you all brought.

I redid the scape as the client's taste finally changed for the better.
He gave it a lot of thought and went with another plan that was more suitable to the materials used, namely an odd out of place tree and a large petrified rock that was much too close to the front.
Pick axed a 120lb petrified log into a nice angled cut so we had 2 nice matching pieces. Lots of hard manual labor goes into such a tank if you want to know:thumbsup: 
Spent about 20 more hours of work on the tank after SCAPE left. 

I organized some plant groups better, added 100 Crypt balansae from Arizona Aquatic Gardens. Thanks Peter! AAG took good care of me for this order.

The tank as as messed up as it could have been due to a number of things, but with simplification, good materials, ideas and work, the tank as back in a mere 3 days.

I reduced the lighting at the surface from 800 umol down to 600 and run the MH's 6 instead of 14 hours (did not listen to me and paid the price). Most anyone that knows me knows I'd never suggest much more than 10 and never for MH's.

CO2 was messed up, redid the entire system, made my old style manifolds, redid the lines, added ADA beetle bubble counters(5 of them), Added the venturi mazzii's, this is the first tank to use them for CO2 as far as I know and they really blast mist unluike anything else possibly can at this scale.

That's an amazingly effective device.

The room itself is the first pick of designers such as Verschee, Heilfinger, and Louie Batan, Louie got the room, it'll look quite neat later

Still a construction zone for a few more weeks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fshfanatic

New pics would be sweet.


----------



## Dave_Discus

Im from Missouri....the show me state.

So show me somo pictures of that awesome dream set up.


----------



## plantbrain

Here's some equipment photo's:

Bag filters, 5 micron and day before events: 1 micron polishing filters.
500 watts of UV death

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

slickwillislim said:


> Wow... That was the coolest tank I have ever seen. I can't wait to go back and see it when its finished. Thanks for your time and for showing us the tank. I hope your planting went well. I could tell you where in for a nice long planting session. Try not to drown. I hope you don't have any more problems with the co2, and you get all the kinks worked out in time.


I got the kinks worked out, but if the client is able to do it?
I made things pretty easy compared to what was left prior.

Folks simply have little conmcept of the importance of CO2 and they got to see rapid algae blooms and the associated panic that goes with it.

Folks may not realize, this tank was doing well, then the lights and CO2 went screwy, no one took care of it, and they said they where adding CO2, nope, they added current:redface: 14 hours of MH's at like 8 w/gal equivalence:icon_eek: + no CO2 to speak of and no cooling at 92F+.

These issues where addressed, algae was manually removed and little was left in a mere 2-3 days.

But some clown will come along and claim their little algae killer will cure everything if you send them 29.99$:icon_roll 



Rergards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

Tom,

With all that UV on the tank are you concerned at all about any negative effects with plant growth.

BTW that purpleish plant you posted is beautiful. What is that?


----------



## plantbrain

While folks often carry on about UV and traces/chelators, I've yet to see any negative impact to date and I've never met anyone that felt that way nor read anything significant from any aquarist other than some theory.

I've found water clarity improvements and the client wants it for the fish.

Ludwgia granulosus, but the lower leaves are from the emergent growth forms, when it grows out, it becomes deep maroon, I changed this around and made a street of these, they will look good against bright green foreground and background plants.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## cwlodarczyk

Can I sneak this in here?

A few more pics... New Folder (3)


----------



## turbomkt

Thanks for getting those pictures up, Carl!!!


----------



## lifetapestry

Thanks for posting the pictures (everyone) and thanks Tom for the descriptions of the setup and beyond. I'm sure the pics don't do the tank justice. I really wanted to compliment you on the scape, particularly the way that the wood contrasts and compliments itself-- the flat pieces, the log pieces, and the branchy pieces really just WORK together. It's gorgeous.

Karla


----------



## plantbrain

That big pertified wood is moved to the rear middle up on the hill, the other 120lb piece was cleaved and split tastefully in 2.

The lone tree sticking straight up was removed and the space left open.
This opened up the front on the right side. Looks much better.
More Erios in the place where the stone was, more Eustralis behind that, larger groupings, the R wallichii which is doing very well is a long row going towards the back.

Note, the owner wants particular groupings also. I have a different style myself, much more long streets running through things.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## co2

WOW, I couldn't tell how cool this tank was until I saw the pictures that Carl linked. Great job Tom!


----------



## plantbrain

It's hard to photo graph because you have to stand back so far and lose details. also, it always stinks when I come and do the work and then leave right away before the water clears and the plants have a nice chance to perk up and grow out.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## epicfish

Found the thread, plantbrain. =)


----------



## plantbrain

Now join SCAPE dangit!!

Or I'll wish a thousand plagues of BBA upon you and all of your descendants:icon_eek: 

The club is good, they have free plant swaps, like most clubs, friendly folks, low cost etc, if any, generally on line plant sales generate the cash required etc. Group buiys for ferts, CO2 equipment and knowledge of where things/items are and the best deals. 

All around, a great club organization.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## turbomkt

Thanks for the plug, Tom! And FYI, no dues as of yet. But I'm thinking about a fundraiser to pay for the domain name and web hosting. 

Now if only I could figure out whose house this is...


----------



## plantbrain

Well, nothing like a huge plant tank in the club either.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## cwlodarczyk

plantbrain said:


> Now join SCAPE dangit!!
> 
> Or I'll wish a thousand plagues of BBA upon you and all of your descendants:icon_eek:
> 
> The club is good, they have free plant swaps, like most clubs, friendly folks, low cost etc, if any, generally on line plant sales generate the cash required etc. Group buiys for ferts, CO2 equipment and knowledge of where things/items are and the best deals.
> 
> All around, a great club organization.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


A blessing from the old man? Wow... this is kinda like a visit from the pope!
:icon_mrgr


----------



## plantbrain

Well, local plant club building is where it's at.
Russling them in is part of the deal.
Then when you have core local folks, you have resources, actual help and plants etc, this makes the hobby much stronger.

Think global, act local.

I'm launching the public BarrReport forms late the 18th of Sept, but I have no commericial vendor banner ads, don't need them, but..........I will place local club banners in place of the rotation for FREE.

Local clubs can help folks, then they get many benefits and share scaping, ferts, deals(CO2, plants, equipment etc), shared interest and levels of skill and some good times, food and drink.

It's useful to see how other's put together a tank in the process.
You see it in person, then you have a lot more confidence to do a nice scape, grow a hard plant etc.

After doing this tank, a 300 gallon seems like a small space.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## eds

Beautiful tank - great thread.
Thanks, Tom.
I was wondering, tho - it looks as tho the tank is kinda set back in an alcove. Is that correct? If so, why was the decision made to build it as a free-standing glass "box", instead of an inset "window" as medicineman suggests?


----------



## plantbrain

It would cost more.
If you need to adjust, move iot here and there later, it's harder.

You have to build such tanks on site also, so that cost much more than having them pre made. Neither Amano nor this client wanted to do that

My own dream tank is something altogether very different, but I need a lot more $$, but then again, I'd build my own tank on site also. But I know how, few clients/folks can do that at a high level and do the work themselves.

Update from the client: tank degases in about 1.5 hours.
I raised the overflows, increased flow of CO2, the venturis are the best thing as it adds lots of CO2 very rapidly and evenly. Better than any reactor or disc method. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## David Hui

Tom,

I see some purple lights in Carl's picture. Are they like plants bulbs?

Thanks
David


----------



## slickwillislim

No they are aqua glo bulbs from hagen. 18000k. They are for fish viewing the owner likes the way it makes the fish look.


----------



## plantbrain

There are also a bank of 8x55 at 45 degree angles being added this week for better fish lighting, not really for life support although they will be on for 10 hours.

The office tank is a 150 gal and 1.5w/gal and he has a dense nice rug of Gloss and HC growing. and that's with T12 lighting I might add at 28" depth.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## PineyMike

How many CO2 tanks do you have on site and how fast is it burning through them?


----------



## ForeverGreen

damn, it looks super cool!


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> Ludwgia granulosus, but the lower leaves are from the emergent growth forms, when it grows out, it becomes deep maroon, I changed this around and made a street of these, they will look good against bright green foreground and background plants.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


tank looks awsome! but you keep saying... street. what do you mean by that? a line? your the only one on here ive ever heard say that so it must be something of tom's secret aquascaping style :hihi:

- fish newb -


----------



## plantbrain

Actually "a street" is a very old school description. Dutch style more than anything.

A long flowing group of plants rather than a roundish bunch, generally snakes diagonally through a scape and upward towards the rear.

There's 4 x 20lb tanks, they last about a month each, so that's not too bad, the issue with large tanks, you cannot go get them yourself. you need a truck and tall room etc. There's a 20LB O2 tank and a 2.5 lb back up, that will last 4-6 months. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Momotaro

"Street"!

Tom, you're going old school Dutch style on us!! :hihi: 


Mike


----------



## plantbrain

Well, my style, if I have one, is more dutch centered truthfully.
Many of the scapes are, but ADA has a strong influence even within that style and the gradation is a bit blurred.

One of the winning ADA contest tanks was very dutch IMO.

I like Dutch scapes, but with crazy wood and rock.
See terraced streets:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> Well, my style, if I have one, is more dutch centered truthfully.
> Many of the scapes are, but ADA has a strong influence even within that style and the gradation is a bit blurred.
> 
> One of the winning ADA contest tanks was very dutch IMO.
> 
> I like Dutch scapes, but with crazy wood and rock.
> See terraced streets:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


That Tonina flut against the L aromatica is amazing! how did you get it that red??? I think I dose too high NO3 for those reds...to keep BGA at bay


----------



## plantbrain

There's no L aromatica in the tank.

There is: L cuba, then Tonia manuas, L pantanal, Erio set, Tonia fluvitialis front to back and HC in the front. I have R wallichii and R macrandra coming uop and a few others I use as plant nutrient routine indictaors, folks traditionally have issues with certain species and I show folks how easy it is to grow them and under what specific conditions and ranges you can get away with.


regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## dschmeh

whats the $dollar value invested so far


----------



## A Hill

plantbrain said:


> Well, my style, if I have one, is more dutch centered truthfully.
> Many of the scapes are, but ADA has a strong influence even within that style and the gradation is a bit blurred.
> 
> One of the winning ADA contest tanks was very dutch IMO.
> 
> I like Dutch scapes, but with crazy wood and rock.
> See terraced streets:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


i see what you meant now! i had an idea but wasnt sure if it was right... heh old dutch style on us.....:icon_roll 


it seems like now scapes are a mix of dutch and ADA once in a while you see a good dutch tank, maybe thats why i hadn't heard what a street was. 

oh and for a full tank shot, im not sure how good you are with the computer but you could try taking say 10 pictures of the tank going from left to right then cropping them and matching them up on a program like paint. it will be bigger than a normal computer screen but it would be big and detailed so you could scroll around it and see it better I'm not sure if it will work. i can try if you want if you could send a good sequence of pictures and tell me the order.

tanks like this are just too amazing....

- fish newb -


----------



## Hoppy

dschmeh said:


> whats the $dollar value invested so far


Heh! heh! If you have to ask, you can't afford it! I, on the other hand, with my trusty social security check, will be looking into this.


----------



## turbomkt

> oh and for a full tank shot, im not sure how good you are with the computer but you could try taking say 10 pictures of the tank going from left to right then cropping them and matching them up on a program like paint. it will be bigger than a normal computer screen but it would be big and detailed so you could scroll around it and see it better I'm not sure if it will work. i can try if you want if you could send a good sequence of pictures and tell me the order.


If we (SCAPE) get in there again, and Tony or I can make it we should be able to pull something off. I've already got some ideas.


----------



## plantbrain

It is very tough to take photo's of such a large tank, we have a couple of weeks before the photgrapher(professional) comes out.

The HC is starting to grow well as are the other plants.
CO2 seems good.
We will bump the lighting to 8 hours per day this weekend.
I am going to add another Biotower and run both over flows directly into thwem to save the degased CO2, I did not design the filter system, but I am going to modify it to cobserve more CO2 and increase biofiltration, reduced noise, less evaporation. There are two 2" PVC drain pipes that bubble as they enter the sump below the water level, I'll pipe these up and into the 5 ft tall 12" Dia Biotowers. The degassed CO2 will resorb back into solution inside these and leave in solution out the bottom and to the return pump.
Dual towers will look nice in there also.

Monday and Tues will be some more additions, more HC and moss etc, I have 20 Erios for the place of the big rock region, a nice field of those will look nice I think and are low mainteance.

I do not have the plant groups quite where I want them, but I'll have a chance to change that here in about 2 weeks and revise things after I have some nicer healthy grown out plants to work with.

I'll likely reduce the species # down and make longer rows wondering around.
There's a lot of Crypt cordata var blassii which will look good as the stem plants over shadow.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> There's no L aromatica in the tank.
> 
> There is: L cuba, then Tonia manuas, L pantanal, Erio set, Tonia fluvitialis front to back and HC in the front. I have R wallichii and R macrandra coming uop and a few others I use as plant nutrient routine indictaors, folks traditionally have issues with certain species and I show folks how easy it is to grow them and under what specific conditions and ranges you can get away with.
> 
> 
> regards,
> Tom Barr


I see that red plant is not purple like L aromatica it is blood red. Which plant is the red on your list. I need to get some of that!


----------



## czado

> I was wondering, tho - it looks as tho the tank is kinda set back in an alcove. Is that correct? If so, why was the decision made to build it as a free-standing glass "box", instead of an inset "window" as medicineman suggests?


The owner told us (SCAPE) he was going to build around the tank as the room is finished, so it appears the tank is built into the wall. Stuff like the MH and the 45 deg CF Tom is installing won't be visible. The "frame" will also hide the substrate line. Please correct me if I am remembering incorrectly.

fresh_newby, I think the plant you really like is L. "Pantanal." (I believe this is properly Ludwigia inclinata var verticillata "Pantanal." May be wrong.)


----------



## plantbrain

fresh_newby said:


> I see that red plant is not purple like L aromatica it is blood red. Which plant is the red on your list. I need to get some of that!


L pantanal, dag near a noxious weed if you ask me.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

plantbrain said:


> L pantanal, dag near a noxious weed if you ask me.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Everything grows like a noxious weed for you Tom! LOLroud:


----------



## plantbrain

This is one in particular. Grows faster than the other stem plants, like 2-3x.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> This is one in particular. Grows faster than the other stem plants, like 2-3x.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


then hook a sister up!!! set up a fellow barrreport subscriber :icon_mrgr


----------



## plantbrain

Give a few weeks to get a good stand going, I tossed most of the infernal weed out. Shippng and it's yours, it's wimpy so express mail is best, runs about 13$ or so.

Tank update, no algae, 8 hours a day light, pH is about 5.6 or so with CO2 cranking. HC is growing in.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## slickwillislim

Good to here everything is running smoothly now. I can't wait to see that tank finished. That is going to be one killer room of the house. After seeing that in person its my new goal in life. To bad I wont be able to afford it in this life. Atleast I got to see it.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, another tank I have done is a 350 gal, it has the full fish loading finally I wanted. Be a few weeks yet before a good scape pic is available, but it's really coming along well.

Many folks like tanks with everything, all the cool plants, all the cool fish, all the cool techy stuff, all together.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sNApple

lmao wow, i wanna see more pics


----------



## fresh_lynny

Saw your pic of the "infernal weed" in the AGA booklet this month. Nice. I will take care of shipping and then some. Let me know when your weed grows out! I want some!


----------



## GulfCoastAquarian

Holy crap, I just now stumbled on this thread. Incredible work, Tom and team. 
I skimmed the thread fairly thoroughly and I don't believe I caught any details on all the tech stuff in this install. Being an engineer, I gotta hear it all! What kind of software are you using for monitoring/reporting? Any webcams planned with timelapse photography, remote monitoring, etc.?


----------



## plantbrain

Here's the Bag filters:


----------



## the_noobinator

any new pictures of this?


----------



## Sorenweis

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> Holy crap, I just now stumbled on this thread. Incredible work, Tom and team.
> I skimmed the thread fairly thoroughly and I don't believe I caught any details on all the tech stuff in this install. Being an engineer, I gotta hear it all! What kind of software are you using for monitoring/reporting? Any webcams planned with timelapse photography, remote monitoring, etc.?





plantbrain said:


> Here's the Bag filters:


Does anyone else find this rediculously funny?


----------



## GulfCoastAquarian

I don't know about ridiculously funny, but my eyes did cross for a second!


----------



## fresh_lynny

Sorenweis said:


> Does anyone else find this rediculously funny?


certainly!!!! lol


----------



## plantbrain

No joke:

Bag Filter Vessel


They can handle very high capacity at anywhere between 600micron to 1 
microns.

There are four of them and can be turned on with a simple ball valve to suit the level of polishing filtration the owner desires.

The engineering is hard to beat, everything it bolted to the solid granite bedrock. There is a propane generator that will run the tank and home for a week or more without outside electrical sources.

Regards,

Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> No joke:
> 
> Bag Filter Vessel
> 
> 
> They can handle very high capacity at anywhere between 600micron to 1
> microns.
> 
> There are four of them and can be turned on with a simple ball valve to suit the level of polishing filtration the owner desires.
> 
> The engineering is hard to beat, everything it bolted to the solid granite bedrock. There is a propane generator that will run the tank and home for a week or more without outside electrical sources.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom Barr


I don't think it is the bag filter that is funny...I think it is the preceding question about engineering and time lapse photography......then the response was....here is the bag filter lol


----------



## Architect1

Thats A huge tank wow I wish I had that so I could swim in it with my fish.


----------



## plantbrain

They'd bite you.
Rosy barbs will remove arm hair.

Yep, bag filters is a good response to the question I think Always glad a few are sharp.
Some catch it, some don't

Engineering: the mechanical, UV, RO, FBF, CO2 syste,, lighting, cooling, stand and cabinet work, hardscape even was quite a feat, plumbing, returns, biotower system, overflows, pump sizing, redundancy, not particularly a simple project, but the tank is a prorotye for a LA zoo exhibit series the Zoo is considering, hopefully 3 such sized tanks will be done and I'll get to do those in all their glory. Then folks can see them anytime they come to LA.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Right after the rework.

Still got another to go also.:icon_eek: 

I'm adding Erios on the right, then some more downoi, some more Bolbitus, I think I';ll rework the mid in the right side and add Lobelia, easier to deal with.

The tank is really jamming and growing well, hard to tell since it's so darn big.
The pics are hard to show here.

I'm going to add the ADA type basalt quatz stone, I found some really nice stuff here, about 3 tonnes worth to chose so I'll use those instead I think.

The client ripped out all the border terracing of the wood I had. 
Did not wanna wait for the wood to stablize.:icon_evil 

So I think in order to maintain things nicely, I'll have the rock added.
I'm going to get a neat large piece of wood to balance the right side that will stick out from the corner. I have a good idea what I want there, the left side is okay now and some other parts. 

I think these additions will help it look and balance better.
Most of the main rearranging is now done.
Just a few holes to fill(2 spots on the foreground, the rock and the one piece of cool wood) and wait really.

Clarity is 48" depth and height is awesome now.

The room is really swank and comfy, Sammy Hayek did most of the room in a Louis Vuitton design (purse desiner that most of the gals might know). Salma Hayek stopped by and said hi and Sammy introduce me while I was working on the tank. I thought she look familar, I ask if she picked on her brother often or if it was the other way around. I figured out who she was about 4 hours later. I'm clueless about who is who and just talk to everyone, but Sammy and her are very nice and down to earth. 

Fun group of folks working on the place.
The tank needs a few weeks more of growth to fill out, add some weeds to 4 spots and add a nice piece of wood and some basalt rock, I don't like the petrified wood, just does not feel right to me.

I'll post some close ups soon.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Here's another, hard to see the prespective, when the plants grow in, the tank will be much more balanced than what is seen now.


----------



## Steven_Chong

I think it is hard to get a visualization of how big it is but . . . when I think of how I think of a lot of those stems as "big" plants but they look like pearlweed in there . . . wow, it's big

but I'm wondering how you're going to trim the weeds later Tom . . . <grin>


----------



## ringram

Hoppy said:


> Tom, you need to let that GDA go thru it's life cycle, get really thick and gooey, etc. Heh, heh!! I would have nightmares so bad I would lose my mind if I had to worry about algae in a tank that size. Hey, just put a garbage bag over it? Blows my mind, and I don't even have the responsibility. Maybe add a couple of otos?


heh. maybe a couple thousand ottos. 
Seriously though, Tom, this is some impressive work that you and the other folks are doing. I'll keep my eyes peeled for future pictures when its all grown in. 
Knowing what I spend on my 20g and 90g, I can't even imagine the work to maintain a monster like this. Wow!


----------



## ringram

plantbrain said:


> The O2 is a fish guarantee. If for any reason the plants are not taken care of, the O2ppm is still high in the 8ppm range.
> No, this will not make the plants pearl more either.
> Some seemed to think that.


Pardon me for still being a couple pages behind, but why is this? I know that plants pearl when the water becomes supersaturated with O2, but won't this be accomplished faster when you're injecting pure o2? Similarly, if the plants are briefly "stunted" and wouldn't be pearling much (or at all), wouldn't this cause them to?
Feel free to shoot me down if I am way off base.

-Ryan


----------



## Hoppy

What it takes for pearling is saturation with oxygen at the surface of the leaf, not throughout the water. So, a fast growing plant could pearl with the bulk of the water far from saturation. I think I am correct about that. It makes sense to me anyway.

That last full tank picture looks like a nicely planted 55 gallon tank to me. Without something to reference to for size it isn't really possible to appreciate how big the tank is.


----------



## plantbrain

greenmiddlefinger said:


> I think it is hard to get a visualization of how big it is but . . . when I think of how I think of a lot of those stems as "big" plants but they look like pearlweed in there . . . wow, it's big
> 
> but I'm wondering how you're going to trim the weeds later Tom . . . <grin>


You hang from the flange, you place you one arm on the rock, wood etc and mow. That's the main way, there's also some 2 ft scissors that will be used mainly to top and bush out some of the plants. You can also jump inside with about 18-20" of water if you don't mind getting soaked.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

ringram said:


> Pardon me for still being a couple pages behind, but why is this? I know that plants pearl when the water becomes supersaturated with O2, but won't this be accomplished faster when you're injecting pure o2? Similarly, if the plants are briefly "stunted" and wouldn't be pearling much (or at all), wouldn't this cause them to?
> Feel free to shoot me down if I am way off base.
> 
> -Ryan



No, plants pearl because they are expelling gas rapidly due to fast growth, not saturation values. O2 is not very soluble either. So it does not dissolve quick and instead just bubbles up and out.

You see pearling in rivers and many places that have less than saturation values for O2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> That last full tank picture looks like a nicely planted 55 gallon tank to me. Without something to reference to for size it isn't really possible to appreciate how big the tank is.


Yep, that's what I thought as well.

I messed up the flash part, so I wanted a silloette on a person for ref's but I still need to get a decent shot, was not my camera.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## PineyMike

Alright enough tank pics. How about a pic of Salma Hayek!!:thumbsup:   
Be ashamed of yourself for not knowing who she is. :icon_cry:


----------



## ringram

I'm sure actors and actresses look waaay different in person than in the movies. I can't get the picture out of my head of her in 'From Dusk 'Til Dawn'. nuff said.


----------



## LoJack

plantbrain said:


> Yep, that's what I thought as well.
> 
> I messed up the flash part, so I wanted a silloette on a person for ref's but I still need to get a decent shot, was not my camera.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thats one incredible photo!

What does a tank like that cost someone (just the tank itself, not everything you've put into it thus far)


----------



## plantbrain

Like when I asked Amano how much his behemoth cost him, "I'm not sure".
Selma was just one of the folks I met, there are others but I don't pretend to know nor get into that scene much. I have a lot of passion for what I do, I assume many of the other folks there do as well.
That was one underlying theme with everyone there.

Louis Vuitton is the theme for the room and had his purse leather all over the walls along with leather and use of the driftwood left over pieces.

At this point I just want the tank to grow, get some fish and bio going, then I'll redo some of the more minor things later and get the old D200 Nikon out and get some serious pics in Dec or so.

I know the client can keep the CO2 in super shape now and the flow patterns are optimized and hidden entirely now. Now a wood hunt is on for the perfect piece to balance the right side.
The water change is fairly quick for 50%, about 2 hours total time, of which trimming etc can be done at low water. He's going to do 2x a week and run the 5 microns after the 50' micron mech filters.
That, some carbon, lots of KNO3/KH2PO4, TMG, MgSO4 will do the rest at 2x a week for now, 3x when the tank gets going faster and the water changes are less frequent.

Pretty much basic EI with ADA AS.
Anubias are doing very well and leaves are clean, they are rooting rapidly under the high light also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Steven_Chong

plantbrain said:


> You hang from the flange, you place you one arm on the rock, wood etc and mow. That's the main way, there's also some 2 ft scissors that will be used mainly to top and bush out some of the plants. You can also jump inside with about 18-20" of water if you don't mind getting soaked.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Ya-ha!! Swim with the fishes! >D

I like that last one. lol


----------



## medicineman

Great decor for a very big tank!
I dont know if I will ever got the skill when it reaches such size. One day... maybe one day if I have the chance to tackle something that big (but still concerned on the maintenance :icon_roll )


----------



## plantbrain

Makes the 300 gallon tank seem rather "small".

The odd thing is I have some very small tanks in the 1-3 gal range and then this and over 300 gallon tanks elsewhere.
That will change in the coming months though.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

Tom it looks awesome. I love the flow. Great job~


----------



## plantbrain

fresh_newby said:


> Tom it looks awesome. I love the flow. Great job~


I don't, least not yet.
The plants need to grow and the Anubias on the right will need to fill in.

There are 150 C balansae in the rear and they will get about 10" for the surface, the Java ferns will ball out, the Bolbitus will be added to other wood regions.

Then there's the rock issue.

And a large piece of wood that angels up fronm the right to match the other piece.

In rock terms, the idea is similar to this scape by ADA:

ADA All Rights reserved. Vendita Prodotti per Acquari d'acqua dolce - Takashi Amano NATURAQUARIUM

specifically no#11.

My feeling is not derived from that image mind you, but it does illustrate the reason and balance idea I have in mind.
The actual execution is somewhat different.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## tazcrash69

Check it out, Tom has an artistic side...Very cool. 
No offense from but from all the scientific advice you post I guess I never imagined this side.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, think about it.

I'm onerous and crothchety with science, but very supportive with Aesthetics, it is a different area. I've posted scapes over the years, just not some big gallery.

If you know how to grow, you need to know how to scape next.

Hopefully folks will learn the first step and then progress.
I'll likely be doing quite a few more of these sized tanks coming up here in the next year or two.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

They showed the tank on Access Hollywood last night at 7:30 opm.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## cwlodarczyk

Tom,

Any idea when the SCAPE group can come back?


----------



## trckrunrmike

Tom, just wondering how you can get red plants to redden up (not green up) with the EI method.


----------



## plantbrain

Well David Hui saw my neglected EI tanks and the plants where mighty red in person, not just on line.

I just use moderately soft water, ADA AS, EI using TMG, good CO2 etc.
Lights themselves might give you different color preceptions.

I use 5000K and 8800K mix generally or 6700K.
This tank has 6700, 5500(the only upper K available at 1000w for MH's) and some funky T12 colors for fish viewing.
The MH's are the thing that grow the plants though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

tazcrash69 said:


> Check it out, Tom has an artistic side...Very cool.
> No offense from but from all the scientific advice you post I guess I never imagined this side.



I've seen his scapes first hand... watch out Amano. He did a really good scape, actually a couple for our members at SFBAAPS. Well it was actually a group effort, but he played a major part. We mostly prepped, handed him stuff and watched the mad scientist at work.


----------



## magicmagni

plantbrain said:


> They showed the tank on Access Hollywood last night at 7:30 opm.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Impressive. That is awesome. I would have liked to see that episode even though I don't watch the show. Know if it will re-air?


----------



## plantbrain

magicmagni said:


> I've seen his scapes first hand... watch out Amano. He did a really good scape, actually a couple for our members at SFBAAPS. Well it was actually a group effort, but he played a major part. We mostly prepped, handed him stuff and watched the mad scientist at work.


It's *always* a group effort.

Amano, Jeff, Luis, no aquascaper is an island.
See how much help Amano has when he does his scapes?
Same with the big tank he did, it took a lot of folks working on that to get it to that level.

Same with this big tank, lots of folks helped.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

magicmagni said:


> Impressive. That is awesome. I would have liked to see that episode even though I don't watch the show. Know if it will re-air?


Not sure.

I'd rather they do it in like Jan or Feb personally.
Esquire will be doing another shoot later next week.

I just got a D200 and I have a bunch of flashes and old Nikon lens, Jay Luto sold me his 105 micro, so I have some decent stuff for good photos now.

Probelm is, being a scaper for a client, you never see the tank in full glory, only after a big hack, after a problem, after a new set up, when it's too over grown and in need of a pruning etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

plantbrain said:


> Problem is, being a scaper for a client, you never see the tank in full glory, only after a big hack, after a problem, after a new set up, when it's too over grown and in need of a pruning etc.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



That's no good!! ;-( I propose a web cam. Then you can see it all the time. The client may not like it though, but it's kinda pracitical in a way just to keep an eye on things remotely and know when it's getting close to trimming time, see any major problem and so on..


----------



## plantbrain

He is going to put a web cam on the tank, but those are *poor quality*  

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Hoppy

Tom, you need to put on your salesman hat, and convince the owner that he can't possibly do without a quality webcam, one that is state-of-the-art, in keeping with the quality of the rest of the set-up. Aren't there some good resolution webcams now? I haven't looked at that technology for several years now.


----------



## plantbrain

Not sure but I think it'll be a nice one because he is the one that will be using it the most

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

You can get high def ones now!! Cool.

LifeCam NX-6000


----------



## plantbrain

He added 300 cards and 100 shrimps, he put 50 ottos and then did not like them because the fish schooled with other fish species.

Hard to catch even Otto's in such a tank.
So over the next month or two, the fish will be slowly added.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Brilliant

Cant wait! anticipation is killing me....but good for the fish!


----------



## plantbrain

The SCAPE folks will likely see it in it's initial grow out stage with fish in Dec.

I recently did a tank at Albany Aquarium, not sure if they added the right ferts or CO2 and they need to add more plants in some sections that they did not have and have not grown out well just yet, but I used the wood in a different way that many do.

Because that's just the way I am

But I also added a Rhinox 5000 CO2 diffuser, these are like the Beetle 50's except are 4=5x cheaper and just as effective and altered the current flow.

I increase efficacy by about 3 x the CO2 rate as it was previously set up.

Same deal with this big tank.

Fish are doing well though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

E! (a TV show) is doing a 1 hour special on the house and will do a big spread on the tank.

We did not know about it till after, otherwise we would have cleaned the tank up more. I'll let folks know when they run the show ahead of time.

Oh well.
All the plants are grow fantastic so life is good there.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Hoppy

I've never watched E!, but I won't miss the show with this feature. Don't forget to let us all know when it will be on. I assume it is a network show and on on the same day all over the country?


----------



## plantbrain

Yep, you'll know when I know, they already did the filming and told us afterwards.........the owner as well 
He knew they might come, but was not there when they did.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## C_perugiae

Has anyone here seen the tank at the Barnes and Noble in Baltimore, across from the National Aquarium? Neat setup. Not quite as scaped as yours, more of a biotope with big swords and such, but still a huge tank. I think it's about 14 feet long and looks to be about 5 feet tall. Haven't been there in quite a while, so I've forgotten exactly how big. It's nice to see some of those schooling fish in schools the size that they'd naturally occur in, though.

Nice tank, Tom. I have my hands full with the few 180g and 220g tanks I have to work on for my job. Absolutely NO desire to do anything on your scale after spending 3 hours balancing on my abs over the side of a tank.  Not to mention working with clients who don't know or care to know anything about their tank, only that it look pretty all the time and they don't ever have to touch it... ick. Maintenance is not for me. I admire your patience.


----------



## jerseyjay

C_perugiae said:


> Has anyone here seen the tank at the Barnes and Noble in Baltimore, across from the National Aquarium? Neat setup


Those who live on East Coast should visit that place ! Attendees of AGA 2004 had a pleasure to see that tank. Even Takashi Amano enjoyed it personally 

Check pictures linked below:
http://greenstouch.com/images/aga04/aga04_31.jpg
http://greenstouch.com/images/aga04/aga04_34.jpg


----------



## fresh_lynny

oooh maybe my Bolobitis will be on E then, Tom hahaha
I have the initials so I can figure out whose house it is *wink*


----------



## CardBoardBoxProcessor

here si the one I was looking for but could not find haha!


----------



## plantbrain

It'll be awhile till I get back and redo things.

The client is well knowledgable about fish..........which is more than many can say.

Here's the next tank's livestock we will do at this scale:


----------



## plantbrain

C_perugiae said:


> Nice tank, Tom. I have my hands full with the few 180g and 220g tanks I have to work on for my job. Absolutely NO desire to do anything on your scale after spending 3 hours balancing on my abs over the side of a tank.  Not to mention working with clients who don't know or care to know anything about their tank, only that it look pretty all the time and they don't ever have to touch it... ick. Maintenance is not for me. I admire your patience.



Thanks,

I enjoy working very much, but I have many things pulling at me and very little time to get it done.
Thing is, a 180-300 gallon now seem "small":tongue: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## magicmagni

plantbrain said:


> It'll be awhile till I get back and redo things.
> 
> The client is well knowledgeable about fish..........which is more than many can say.
> 
> Here's the next tank's livestock we will do at this scale:


That fish looks fierce! I'd think twice about pruning a tank with something with teeth that big. Is that a piranha?


----------



## plantbrain

No, this is my ultimate game fish.
This is what I want to catch in South America.

Hydroculus scrombiedes

You make the display so that it does not require lots of scaping work.
Then like sharks and other predators, you use a screen when you go in to corral them to one side while you work. This is very common with public aquaria, but also with the pedator hobby crowd.

You folks never had dangerous fish or critters before?:hihi:
I'm not going to be called "Stumpy" later :biggrin: 

See that thread where the person got bit by their piranha here on PT.
Lucky that's all that happened.

I've seen lots of "small community fish" in tanks, but the public enjoys the fast big pedators, and the public also likes gaint planted tanks.

So............

We run very high current a few hours each day for these larger pedators also, they need exercise when fed a diet of fish and other fatty high oil food.

They have better appettites, health and display when this is done.
A fat lazy fish is not a healthy fish.

I call it "walking the fish" (like a dog etc) each day.
Blasts crud and algae off plants, cleans up any mulm etc.
Many good things come from this.

regards, 
Tom Barr






Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CardBoardBoxProcessor

mm.. there is going to be another huge tank?


----------



## JenThePlantGeek

Heh, what a funny question to be asking Mr. Tom Barr. He's going to be making bigger and better tanks for the rest of his life if I had to guess


----------



## slickwillislim

I believe the plan is to set up two of these big freshwater planted tanks at the LA zoo with big predator fish. The owner of this tank was big into predatory fish but do too his position on the board of the zoo and laws in california I believe he had to get rid of them. He was a nice guy and knew a lot about predatory fish that went right over the heads of us plant nerds. 

He really loves the hobby, glad to see someone with enough position and money to make an impact on our hobby.


----------



## magicmagni

JenThePlantGeek said:


> Heh, what a funny question to be asking Mr. Tom Barr. He's going to be making bigger and better tanks for the rest of his life if I had to guess



He's going bigger and bigger. Maybe someday they will be big enough to have plantfest in them. He could charge admission to swim in the tanks with the fish and plants LOL ;-)


----------



## plantbrain

Come to a plant fest sometime, it's cheap.
You walked away changed in your prespective, you have more rockj and driftwood than you knwo what to do with, you collect more weeds and see them where they naturally or unaturally grow.

A 6 mile river is not a small thing.
Folks get tired of looking at aquatic plants finally and then start relaxing and enjoying nature and all of it's elements. such Rivers are also packed with large schools of fish.

Marine systems are even better.
That's really cool and folks are often amazed that they never knew such a diverse plant macrophyte community even existed.

The goal of such large tanks is to recreate that feeling of being underwater for myself. 

I also deal with a 6 million gallon lake that is gin clear, easy to manage now(use to have algae mats all over, no fish, they all died), F2 generation trout, red eared Sunfish, some 6ft Sturgeon, CA black roach, all doing very well in a nice planted grouping on Sago pondweed, Najas, and Chara.
Pruning is done 1-2x a month and fish and aesthetics are at an all time high.

I also consult for other lakes, namely in Southern CA, irrigation lakes that are also dual use for fishing and aesthetics and the occasionaly weed choked pond/lake/goldfish pond.

The tank is being stocked slowly right now, so come mid Dec, I'll be interested to see how it's progressed.


Regards,
Tom Barr


----------



## jbarone

the sheer scale of this project is amazing. do you have any more photos you can share with us?

also, have you ever considered doing a nano? it might bring things into perspective for you!


----------



## plantbrain

See the nano (1.5 gal non CO2/no excel) I did a while ago on the www.BarrReport.com

That was not in it's heyday either.
It had Gloss all over but I neglected the ferts and maintaining the level, the lost from evaporation is fierce with small tanks and affects many things.

What I have few of are mid sized tanks which most scape with.
Those are easy.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## C_perugiae

plantbrain said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I enjoy working very much, but I have many things pulling at me and very little time to get it done.
> Thing is, a 180-300 gallon now seem "small":tongue:


Biggest I've played with is a 450 (8ftx3ftx3ft) and that was quite enough. I'm glad that tank and its 30" arowana have been sold and are no longer part of my daily chore list. I'll stick with your "small" (6ft) tanks, thank you very much.


----------



## plantbrain

Here's an update, 24 Altums, all eating well, 30 Discus. Never got the HC growing well, switching to Utricularia grass.

I'm not going down there for another month or two, I'm redoing an office tank for the same client, he's swapping a 150 gal for 300 gal for the office. So I'll coordinate that with a re work of this tank and the addition on another piece of wood for the balance of the other side.

This is not my photo but one the client sent.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## medicineman

No good Mr Barr.... (not good for me that is :lol)

You made me droll for those expensive full sized discus and altums as my next fauna. This is going to hurt my wallet a little.

Love the tank and the best way to appreciate it is definately to come over! :icon_bigg


----------



## GulfCoastAquarian

Good grief, that project has gone from impressive to breath-taking! What is incredible about these pictures is that this setup really doesn't seem that big. Probably, as you said, because of the scale of the fish and plants in it. Has to be the sort of thing you really have to see in order to appreciate!


----------



## plantbrain

The local SCAPE plant club saw it at the very start.
You do have to see it in person.
The Altums are doing very well, so that's a good sign.
I think the client is beign more conservative realizing that the fish are hard to remove afterwards and how a school looks. These fish grow and get big, no need for 70 of each school. 

One thing that really amazed him and something I mentioned is the school behaviors of Discus and other fish are dramatically different, these guys run all over, they are far far more active than when you stuff them in a small tank.

Most fish are.

The direcdtor of the LA zoo cme over and looked at the tank. He wants a larger version at the head of the LA zoo's Amazon exhibit.

I said no problem, tell me when and your time line.
I'll out in 6 tanks like this if they want:icon_cool 

I also got 2 more large tanks to do, a 450-1000 gal in Malibu, and hopefully a large one up at Lake Tahoe. Those will be on going accounts.

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## Burks

That's a pretty darn amazing tank.

The Discus remind me of floating M&M's for some reason, so colorful.


----------



## istareatplants

i just want to dive right in and swim with the fishies. beautiful!!


----------



## plantbrain

More pics:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

And there's a lot more:


----------



## fresh_lynny

Tom..looks amazing. i am glad you added the Altum close ups. Very cool. Sounds like you have your hands full. Hopefully you will start new threads with each of the upcoming endeavors.


----------



## mrbelvedere

Awesome tank Tom. Where are the discus from?

Nice to see you again, Gulfcoast.


----------



## Burks

I can't get over the coloration on those Discus. It just blows anything around this area away.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

that is awesome!! those are some tiny altums too. i want it all...haha


----------



## timr

wow, look at the algae on that driftwood in the last pic....




:tongue:


----------



## plantbrain

Here' another:


----------



## CardBoardBoxProcessor

mmm.. the amazing natural look is pretty much destroyed by the discus colors... all wild would have been better IMHO.


----------



## bumblebee

Got to tell you Tom, you have the most incredible tank Ive ever ever seen in any forum, you have my vote, Dam......

Alex


----------



## Lupin

:eek5: Stunning tank there, Tom.:eek5:
I'm tempted to steal the altums.:hihi:


----------



## Lupin

CardBoardBoxProcessor said:


> mmm.. the amazing natural look is pretty much destroyed by the discus colors... all wild would have been better IMHO.


But with wild discus, won't the tank look drab?:icon_eek: I mean most of the wild discus are green and blue and the cardinals won't easily add too much color.:angel:


----------



## plantbrain

Well, we can always remove them and try the wild ones to see.

I hope he'll add the rest of the Altums and then put those discus in the office 300 gallon tank

They are doing well, but good water changes/good feeding and habitat makes for happy fish.

An old client of mine still has his Altums, that was 7 years ago.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

bumblebee said:


> Got to tell you Tom, you have the most incredible tank Ive ever ever seen in any forum, you have my vote, Dam......
> 
> Alex


The tank still needs a lot of work to be whipped into good shape though.
I need to dial in the fioreground and the rock midground, prune and add./delete some plants etc and add one piece of driftwood.

Then about 3-6 months, it'll be doing well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Lupin

Tom, I'd rather see those captive-bred discus than wild ones.:icon_mrgr Or the tank is full of green.:icon_eek: 
The altums are gorgeous.:angel:


----------



## plantbrain

I prefer wild type.

But that's me.

Others have a lot of choices and opinions.
We all seem to have conflicting issues with such contrived and genetically selected fish, see gold fish for example and Koi.
That's okay for many asethetically.

Some find interest in breeding, some find interest in genetic modification (Zebra danios).

They are the same to me personally.
You are selecting genes over others.

I prefer altums personally, but many like color.
I like smaller fish in large schooling packs.
This tank is big enough for both.
Adding Altums and smaller colorful fish would be my choice.

It's not for a scape contest, it's to make a hobbyists very happy and enjoy their tank. And such tanks tend to be a lot more enjoyable than just a nice scape with few fish for many clients.
Scape aesthetics are different, they tend to focus on one species, maybe a few others in a small tank, rather than a large scale community effect.
They also use smaller tanks as they are much easier to photograph and see details.

But you need both fish and plant skills in synch and that's a lot of $$ if you are poor with CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sNApple

WOW, thats sick


----------



## Lupin

Don't wild discus cost more than the captive-bred ones, Tom? I really adore altums.:angel:

Seems the bills are too high.:icon_mrgr


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

Bluebell said:


> Don't wild discus cost more than the captive-bred ones, Tom? I really adore altums.:angel:
> 
> Seems the bills are too high.:icon_mrgr


not all the time. my wilds were all cheaper then the domestics i got. well...they were cheaper then the tag on them. i never pay full price for my discus. :icon_wink


----------



## AlGee

so...care to share how much it cost to get the tank up to this point?


----------



## ianmoede

Infinity dollars.


----------



## plantbrain

Lots of it is labor for the cost.
Maybe 200,000$.

I asked Amano the same question, he fumbled and thought etc, I felt bad after asking because now I realize the issue with that same question in a fit of irony

I hate that when Karmic irony bites you in the butt
But that's okay with me in this case

I still have a fair amout yet to do here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ianmoede

Man. 200k on a tank..... makes you feel like theres something wrong with the world. Nothing against you but DAMN, that is a brand new house, 20 kias, or 5 full college scholarships.


----------



## LGHT

Is the tank open for show? I would like to have a peak on a lunch break!!


----------



## Derekj03

It seems overstocked to me. Just by looking at the pictures it seems that there are way to many fish in there. That would like me having this in my 55g:
34 cardinals
2 altums
2 rose lines 
2 hatches 
1 discus
4 N espei
Plus all of the other fish you have... i might be wrong just my .02


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I like the look, but as Derekj03 says, it looks more like a "fish" tank than a planted tank right now....


----------



## Lupin

ianmoede said:


> Man. 200k on a tank..... makes you feel like theres something wrong with the world. Nothing against you but DAMN, that is a brand new house, 20 kias, or 5 full college scholarships.


If I could win a lottery, no problem with that.:hihi: :icon_mrgr


----------



## AlGee

yeah, a less fortunate person would look at how much we spend on our rinky dink tanks and say, "man, that's a dinner at red lobster, some shoes, a coat, a few nights at the motel..."


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Yeah, I guess it's all an order of magnitude. 10 years ago if you had told me a guy would spend $500 for special "dirt" and a CO2 tank and a bazillion watts of lighting on a 20 gallon tank, I would have told you that you were nuts.


----------



## fresh_lynny

ianmoede said:


> Man. 200k on a tank..... makes you feel like theres something wrong with the world. Nothing against you but DAMN, that is a brand new house, 20 kias, or 5 full college scholarships.


When you work your butt off your whole life, and you pay 60% in taxes to support many who do not, I guess you can spend 200 grand on a tank if you want. That is how wonderful people like Tom Barr get to do what they love and get paid for it! I don't think that is what is wrong with the world. I think that is what econonmically drives the world so many can do what they love, or do nothing at all.


----------



## ringram

Very true. You also need to understand that the folks that have the kind of $$, consider $200k with the same regard that most of us consider....$1-2k. It's apples and oranges. That said, its awesome to see a tank like that. I'll never have a tank like that, but it sure would be neat to set one up for someone who does ;P
Good work Tom (yes, I know you have others helping). It looks spectacular!

-Ryan


----------



## radiocognition

dear god


----------



## mrbelvedere

2wheelsx2 said:


> Yeah, I guess it's all an order of magnitude. 10 years ago if you had told me a guy would spend $500 for special "dirt" and a CO2 tank and a bazillion watts of lighting on a 20 gallon tank, I would have told you that you were nuts.



You spent $500 on substrate for a 20 gallon? I want some of that!


----------



## 2wheelsx2

mrbelvedere said:


> You spent $500 on substrate for a 20 gallon? I want some of that!



For the whole tank set up. If I could afford $500 for substrate, I'd set up a tank like this 1600 gallon project. :bounce:


----------



## CardBoardBoxProcessor

Derekj03 said:


> It seems overstocked to me. Just by looking at the pictures it seems that there are way to many fish in there. That would like me having this in my 55g:
> 34 cardinals
> 2 altums
> 2 rose lines
> 2 hatches
> 1 discus
> 4 N espei
> Plus all of the other fish you have... i might be wrong just my .02


but they are all a schooling fish!!!! I never understood how you can over stock a schooling fish. they like to be in each others faces and with a filtration system like that I doubt toxins are a problem.


----------



## legendaryfrog

how thick is the acrylic????




i can just imagine the electricity bills..........that 4.5 KW per hour


----------



## RedIrocZ-28

Derekj03 said:


> It seems overstocked to me. Just by looking at the pictures it seems that there are way to many fish in there. That would like me having this in my 55g:
> 34 cardinals
> 2 altums
> 2 rose lines
> 2 hatches
> 1 discus
> 4 N espei
> Plus all of the other fish you have... i might be wrong just my .02


Just like the watt/gal rule breaks down I am sure that the inches of fish per gallon rule also breaks down.  

I could have a DENSELY planted 55gal tank with 50 Neons in it with 4 HOB filters and I am sure they'd be perfectly content. I have a feeling that the word of the day here is massive filtration to keep the fishies happy.


----------



## ianmoede

I have 42 in a 55 with an eheim. Everyones doin GURREAT.


----------



## paradise

plantbrain said:


> Here' another:


Tom, we talked at AGA about possibly doing a shoot at the house, myself and Eric Do. I am still very interested, to test the skills on a tank that size. Keep me in mind. 
Ed


----------



## Robert H

> Never got the HC growing well, switching to Utricularia grass.


I thought you could grow anything Tom! Tank too deep for the HC?


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Robert H said:


> I thought you could grow anything Tom!


:iamwithst 
:icon_lol:


----------



## plantbrain

paradise said:


> Tom, we talked at AGA about possibly doing a shoot at the house, myself and Eric Do. I am still very interested, to test the skills on a tank that size. Keep me in mind.
> Ed


Not an issue Ed, I'd love to have your input and expertise.
I have another tank/s in Malibu yet to do this comming year as well as some other nice tanks in the region there.

PM me and we can talk more.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Robert H said:


> I thought you could grow anything Tom! Tank too deep for the HC?


I can.

It's the client's tank, not mine.
It's not my personal tank, I just give advice, rework it, replant it etc.

The rest is really up to this client and his own beginner plant ability which appears to be far better than anything we have ever seen from you???

Where are your scapes Robert?

Easy to make snide comments when you do not put yourself out there now ain't it? 

I've grown plenty of HC at home.

Getting *others* to stop playing and fiddling is quite another matter and bears no responsibility of the person who is hired to set up a tank.

A good designer will adjust to the client's needs, habits and routines, these are not all known at first glance and the I think overall, the Utricularia is a better choice for the client and the tank's design truthfully.
It's less work both now and in the future.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

LGHT said:


> Is the tank open for show? I would like to have a peak on a lunch break!!


If you join SCAPE, then maybe they might be nice enough?
I'll see if you join.
It cost nothing to join either.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

legendaryfrog said:


> how thick is the acrylic????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i can just imagine the electricity bills..........that 4.5 KW per hour


I think 1.25".
Cost of Electric and water are less of an issue obviously.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

The filtration is designed by the same folks that do Monterey Bay Aquarium.
I think they can handle it.
What I'm picky about is the mechanical filtration.
Never enough.

But yes, the tank was specifically design for a high fish load.
This is what makes it a feast for the eyes.
You see it in person and makes go "agaga".
Watching schooling fish where they have the room to school is a treat.
In pics and perhaps even in person, the tank is loaded with life.
I'm not trying to impress just the plant folks only here, I'm after, and the client and I are on the same page, everybody. The "fish only" folks also. 
The plants allow use to keep more species and more bioload than with normal filtration alone.

I found a few nice pieces of wood 2 days ago like what is in this tank and will make the scape much nicer. I found more wood than I'll ever possibly use and it's nothing short of awesome.
I really like a log I found that will be used in this tank.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## StrikeEagle1

Pictures of the wood Tom? I've been thinking about redesigning my 75gal with smaller pieces of wood instead of the large Driftwood I bought from a LFS in Raleigh that has a piece of slate attached to weigh it down...doesn't allow me to plant near the piece of slate! 

Any recommendations between manzanita vs Malaysian driftwood?


----------



## plantbrain

Well, you are in Florida, are you near Jacksonville or Gainesville?
There's a super place there.
Great for the branchy stuff.

PM and it'll give the details.
It's worth going there vs the Manzy.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## turbomkt

plantbrain said:


> If you join SCAPE, then maybe they might be nice enough?
> I'll see if you join.
> It cost nothing to join either.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom,
He's already a member


----------



## adamhaulena

Whenever I see these large aquariums, I look at the mountains and mountains of equipment and the astronomical cost to run it...then I look outside and realize Mother Nature is doing something much much bigger and much nicer free of charge and without any equipment...

And this is only for 1600 gallons...imagine a actual lake?

But...looks great.

Adam


----------



## plantbrain

That's why I do plant fest each year in Florida, there you can see a river of plants and swim with turtles, otter, fish, and more plants than you can stand.

I agree with you personally.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

turbomkt said:


> Tom,
> He's already a member


Good, then whenever the client is willing etc, I think a visit can be scheduled.
Never know though, got to rope those new members in asap.:thumbsup: 

One thing about the fish loading: many have long assumed that high fish loads are bad for tanks and detract, well they can, if things are not well balanced and the system is not set up for that.
But if you set things up for this to begin with, and you have a tank large enough to allow for many species to coexist, this is not much of an issue.

I do find it hypocritical for folks to carry on and on about how much better 
NH4 is than NO3, then suggest all these fish might be bad in the same breath.

I have tanks with no fish, so do these clients.
They start out with no fish, once the plants really fill in, we add more fish slowly.

This is more for bacteria than the plants.

We see little differences in such large variations in the fish loading in plant health.

I've seen this, so have the cleints.
Some tanks can reduce the KNO3 dosing down some, but basic EI does great also over several years.

I've had more wiggle room with dosing using ADA aqua soil, but the flourite tanks really are very easy to care for if the EI is done 3x a week for dosing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Dan Martin

I can't seem to see any pics past the ones in the first post. Do I have to do something to get them to show up? I'm particularly interested in what it looks like today and what the filter room looks like.

Thanks!

Dan


----------



## plantbrain

Dan Martin said:


> I can't seem to see any pics past the ones in the first post. Do I have to do something to get them to show up? I'm particularly interested in what it looks like today and what the filter room looks like.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan


There is a limited amount of pic space available and some must be deleted to make room for the newer pics. See page 14 foer the newer pics.

You should be able to see the newer stuff.
Some other forums have all the pics.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## RedIrocZ-28

Tom, perhaps you could sign up for a free Photobucket.com account. Thats what I've been using for over 2 years now. Its got a simple user interface, and its free, what more could you ask for


----------



## plantbrain

RedIrocZ-28 said:


> Tom, perhaps you could sign up for a free Photobucket.com account. Thats what I've been using for over 2 years now. Its got a simple user interface, and its free, what more could you ask for


My own personal web site? :tongue:
But I'm not trying to promote that through this thread either.
But I could do that also, not really that large of an issue for me either way.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Yeah, I've seen all the pics on your site Tom. That tank is truly amazing. Even my non-fish person wife was impressed.


----------



## Dan Martin

Thanks, I didn't make it to page 14 yet when I posted. It looks great!

Any pics of the filter room?


----------



## RedIrocZ-28

plantbrain said:


> My own personal web site? :tongue:
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I know the feeling. I wish I had my own personal website. It would be a jumble of Muscle cars, fish tanking stuffs, astronomy, and thoughts and opinions of the editor lol. 

I'll go back and look but do you have any large format pictures of this tank? I'm rather impressed by it  I would like to set up my meager 60gal cube tank to have a nice scape like this tank. So some higher res pictures would do wonders for me. I like your style.


----------



## cwlodarczyk

Dan Martin said:


> I can't seem to see any pics past the ones in the first post. Do I have to do something to get them to show up? I'm particularly interested in what it looks like today and what the filter room looks like.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan


SCAPE took a few pics while we were there - some of the hardware is included. Enjoy: New Folder (3)


----------



## Dan Martin

That's amazing! Thanks for the link Carl.


----------



## plantbrain

RedIrocZ-28 said:


> I'll go back and look but do you have any large format pictures of this tank? I'm rather impressed by it  I would like to set up my meager 60gal cube tank to have a nice scape like this tank. So some higher res pictures would do wonders for me. I like your style.


I did not take many of the pics, I was in the tank working, not taking pics!
I do not get paid nor get things done taking pics.

But I will set up my D200 Nikon next trip down there, but often after working on tanks etc, you seldom get to see the fruits of the labor till about 1-3 weeks after you leave.

So often I reply on other folks for photo's.
I take care of problems or new set ups or reworks, seldom do I get a chance to work just for a pic. 

That's for the client, not me.
But I try and get a quick snap shot here and there witha cheapy camera.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## LGHT

How much time does it take weekly to maintain a tank of that size? I would guess about 20 hours?


----------



## turbomkt

I doubt it's even that much. I would guess 10.


----------



## Architect1

Derekj03 said:


> It seems overstocked to me. Just by looking at the pictures it seems that there are way to many fish in there. That would like me having this in my 55g:
> 34 cardinals
> 2 altums
> 2 rose lines
> 2 hatches
> 1 discus
> 4 N espei
> Plus all of the other fish you have... i might be wrong just my .02


sorry to say derekj03.That id vary feasible. just means more water changes. and the 34 cardinals are not even a bio load problem.

I have had 

4 guramies
6 discus
4 sae eaters
2 yellow plecos
4 huge swords 
so many valls all in a 55 I forget what else but yeah. I did it

I know discus breeders that have had 12 discus in a 55g just means more water changes.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, the mainteance goes in spurts.
Generally it's about 2 hours per water change pruning.

You have about 1 hour to trim before the water refilling gets too deep.
So if you are quick about it, you can trim about 1/4 of the tank.
I am switching the plants over to lower mainteance type plants now the owner has a good handle with the CO2 and fish load.
Ex: Bolbitus does poorly when you have poor CO2 and so does the Java fern.
The client also has not lived at the site for several months and is busy beyond belief + wife+ 3 kids.
He also has 20 other tanks that will be reduced to a couple for quarantine and and holding tanks only. The goal here is to reduce labor by adduing things to one single mega tank.
The wood and design is for lower mainteance, although the client has tried to add things that increase that, I've struck somewhat of a balance with him and his goal, and neat plants he likes etc.

My personal idea was much less mainteance than this, but I think I can have my cake and eat it too, although it's a process and takes some time.
Large tanks are more unique and require work tweaking things, but once they settle, they do amazingly well.

I may be doing a neat tank/pond system soon also.
Tenji will do the main work along with myself for that one also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Mendez

That's... Hum... Big


----------



## mnsnowdaboy

since there are discus, what is the water temp in that tank? Also what kind of heater is it and.....how many million watts is it...:icon_wink


----------



## logan

what is going on here!!!!!!! you could fit a school of swimming children in there!!!!!


----------



## logan

but i'm not sure the bio load could handle it. you could feed them vienna sausages though.


----------



## rodneyfisher

Hey I really like the Pigeon Bloods you have in there!! If you don't mind me asking where did you get the discus stock from?

THANKS
Rodney Fisher


----------



## GDominy

Tom,

This tank is just plain sick (in the best way possible). I am really impressed, not only by the aquascape, but the incredible quality of the fauna. Those discus are stunning, and the altums (one of my personal favorites) are... well... I don't have words that could adequately describe how good they look.

How fast are the cardinals dissapearing with the altums in there? I love the mix of small and large fish, but I wouldn't dream of doing that in a smaller tank. Cardinals are still difficult to find in my city, and when you do find them it is only in small quantities and for a high price ($10 each isn't uncommon here)


----------



## 2wheelsx2

GDominy said:


> How fast are the cardinals dissapearing with the altums in there? I love the mix of small and large fish, but I wouldn't dream of doing that in a smaller tank. Cardinals are still difficult to find in my city, and when you do find them it is only in small quantities and for a high price ($10 each isn't uncommon here)


Gareth, you should consider mail order or making a trip over to the mainland. Rainforest Pet Spectrum sells cardinals for $1.50 a pop, and if you order > 50, I think they sell them for $1.


----------



## GDominy

2wheelsx2 said:


> Gareth, you should consider mail order or making a trip over to the mainland. Rainforest Pet Spectrum sells cardinals for $1.50 a pop, and if you order > 50, I think they sell them for $1.


I am making a trip to the mainland soon actually.. doing a fish/plant shopping trip and hopefully meeting some peeps from here.... However, thats a different topic altogether. Drop me a PM if you have any recomendations!


----------



## tpl*co

This is by far my favorite tank. I put a copy of one of the posted pictures of it as my computer wallpaper! I want to turn my 125 as a mini version of it! (ahhhh, if I can only have the full sized version!)

Tina


----------



## plantbrain

Well, I thought I was walking into disaster, but it was not that bad of shape this time down.

I found out if you fill the tank 1/2 way and float in the tank, it makes replanting very easy. Trying hang or balance on sharp rocks with hands or feet hurts  

Fish bit my toes.
These Altums...........well they have to be the biggest pigs in the tank, I fed them daily for 3 days and they always came to the front of the tank begging like the worst of dogs.........

He has not added all 64. 18 of the largest fattest ones have been added and have done well. I saw these when they where under 1", they are 5" long now.

Some guy in Germany sold the client these discus which are huge.

I did a total rework this time, spent about 30 hours of reworking labor.
I re[planted most of the front 2/3 of the tank except for the hair grass lawn, I added a large piece of Anubiasized wood to balance the sides, I could have added another log on the other side but filling in the blank space on the left removed that need.

I added 500lbs of ADA like Siuyo(sp) rock, this makes a very nice contrast and divides the tank up into workable units.

I'm trying to get one of the friends there to have us do a tank for Jim Carry. He has marine tank, I figure he needs a Freshwater equilvalent.

LA Zoo exhibit is a go and in the planning stages. There will definitely be 2 large tanks in the Amazon display there I will get to work on. We are also going to Amazon to collect the fish with Heiko.
They will film the entire process. Should be cool.

Note, this is the tank before I fixed it, it'll take a few days before it's happy and the plants have filled in more. It was literally covered in algae when the CO2 was off for 7 days before being fixed.

We used Excel+daily 40% water change, blackout and virtually all plants where algae free after 6 days.

Regards

Tom Barr


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

There are no words I can think of that would justify the quality of your hard work. Well done...I too am going on a collecting trip to the Amazon and a well known lake in Panama. Cant wait


----------



## plantbrain

Full tank shot, note person's head about 6 ft from the tank.

This is before I reworked it, I did not get any photo's because I had to leave prior to refill and before the plants filled in again.

This is after a very bad algae bout so I know how to prep and kill algae good at massive scales, basically planted aquarium ecosystem restoration.

I think I'll have them put in copper CO2 lines one, for the Disc and one for the venturis, the different pressure draw at remote locations and the long lines have created some issues, so rather than chaining the CO2 tanks together, we will run the CO2 gas tank/regs separately and use some nice metering valves to make the system extremely consistent.

Screwing up at this scale with CO2 is very bad.

I also do not like the filtration, I think you cannot over filter such tanks and adding another iwaski 1500gph or so ought to help with 2x Ocean clear filters and run siphons down hidden by the plants ought to help. They cannot drill without emptying the tank. I love lots of ports and holes so I can drain, siphon, fill, spray etc any volume.

I'm amazed at these Altums, they are about as tame and freindly as you can get.

The client also added a 75 and 50 and 40 Q tanks in the other filter room and some shelving. Added an O2 controller this time also.
The Neptune systems are pretty nice for monitoring etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Chrona

Looks great Tom!

Question: When treating the algae for 6 days via water changes, blackout and excel, you were injecting CO2 and not adding ferts correct?


----------



## plantbrain

You do not add CO2 night/blackout nor ferts.

The blackout was for 3 days only, not 6 (in case you thought it was 6) 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## tpl*co

Tom,

I'm singing your tank's praises over at the simplydiscus site, I hope you don't mind .

Tina


----------



## Mako

How do you dose this tank Tom? Its not EI is it?


----------



## plantbrain

tpl*co said:


> Tom,
> 
> I'm singing your tank's praises over at the simplydiscus site, I hope you don't mind .
> 
> Tina


Go right ahead, tell them it's set at 82-83F we dose standard EI, they eat like pigs. Behavior is dramatically different in such tanks at this scale.

There are another 18 Discus to be added, but hopefully those will go to the office 450 gallon tank and he will keep the Altums in here instead.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Mako said:


> How do you dose this tank Tom? Its not EI is it?


Of course it is.
Has been for every large tank I've done.
Simple, cheap and effective.

I'd rather folks worry about CO2 and reducing their light than playing with test kits, calibration solutions etc. If you have nutrient rich sediments, then the test kits do not tell you the status of the plant health anyway. It only gives some of the data.

Proper usage of CO2 is much much more critical.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Lupin

plantbrain said:


> I'm trying to get one of the friends there to have us do a tank for Jim Carry. He has marine tank, I figure he needs a Freshwater equilvalent.


Is this Jim Carrey the comedian actor by any chance?:eek5:

Good luck with your trip with Heiko.:smile:


----------



## slickwillislim

Yeah the house that this tank is in over looks some pretty famous people. When we where talking with the owner he pointed out a few homes of some pretty big stars. I guess its a small world when your that wealthy. I am going to assume it is the famous one.


----------



## plantbrain

In say 5-6 weeks, he might let you folks come back etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Wow, that baby has come a long ways. Would love to see a higher resolution (bigger) picture!


----------



## plantbrain

Betowess said:


> Wow, that baby has come a long ways. Would love to see a higher resolution (bigger) picture!


No dowloaded to this site you can't.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Try using Photobucket. And lowering quality to ~ 70%-75% if you have to. That is using the "Save for Web" which is under the first "file" menu in photoshop.


----------



## dgiotto1970

plant brain said:


> No downloaded to this site you can't.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


 :bounce: I would love to see some bigger HQ pics, the tank is amazing. roud: 


I use Imageshack "Thanks to ImageShack for" Free Image Hosting. I have uploaded some pretty pictures on there and It's pretty easy to use.


----------



## tpl*co

OK, taking notes here .

To recreate this in my 125-130 gallon tank I'd need

5 roselines 
3-4 discus
5 angels (thinking wild peruvian)
81 cardinals (maybe less, could be fish snacks)

do the hatchets stay at the top all the time?

Does that sound about right Tom?

Tina


----------



## plantbrain

I'm 1/2 dead, but I'll post later about the tank.

The rework turned out beautiful.
Removing all the ADA soil stunk.

You could tell inside 5 minutes that all the water clarity issues where due solely to the ADA soil.

The 80 Bags of EC look great in it's place.

Sooooooo much easier to do and work with.
I'll get some photo's later.

Re did the CO2, it'll knock the pH down a full unit inside 30-35 minutes from ambient. Rock work turned out good, planting did as well etc.
I changed the wood a little and balanced things more.

It'll be 5-10x easier to take care of and achieve the goals that the tank was intended to. I need some sleep though.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## boink

yay to removing aquasoil! hahha those were alot of bags


----------



## tpl*co

plantbrain said:


> I'm 1/2 dead, but I'll post later about the tank.
> 
> The rework turned out beautiful.
> Removing all the ADA soil stunk.
> 
> You could tell inside 5 minutes that all the water clarity issues where due solely to the ADA soil.
> 
> The 80 Bags of EC look great in it's place.
> 
> Sooooooo much easier to do and work with.
> I'll get some photo's later.
> 
> Re did the CO2, it'll knock the pH down a full unit inside 30-35 minutes from ambient. Rock work turned out good, planting did as well etc.
> I changed the wood a little and balanced things more.
> 
> It'll be 5-10x easier to take care of and achieve the goals that the tank was intended to. I need some sleep though.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


WOW, 80 bags! Hope they get a volume discount! Otherwise that's about $2000 worth of EC?

Tina


----------



## kzr750r1

Why the change? Sounds like some task. Look forward to some updated shots of the new setup. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## tpl*co

kzr750r1 said:


> Why the change? Sounds like some task. Look forward to some updated shots of the new setup. Thanks for sharing.


I think a few pages back Tom said it was a silty mess, made it hard to work on the tank and had clarity issues.

OH, found it on this cross post 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ng-behemoth-yet-again.html?highlight=behemoth

Can you tell I don't like this tank Tom? LOL

Tina


----------



## plantbrain

boink said:


> yay to removing aquasoil! hahha those were alot of bags


Garbage gave me a rash. EC did not.
Most do not swim in the tanks to do the planting, but it does give a rash.

I was super silthy mess, you could not clean it no matter how much we vacuumed, how many water changes, how fine of micro filtration you did.

Nothing worked, until we removed the soil, then the tank was supper clear and has been since.

Big job, one I would not had predicted at the start(the ADA As issue), but one I'll never forget.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## shake

plantbrain said:


> I'm 1/2 dead, but I'll post later about the tank.
> 
> The rework turned out beautiful.
> Removing all the ADA soil stunk.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom, how bad was the smell. Can you sort explain abit.

A couple of months ago I re scaped my 90g and this time used AS Amazonia. Now I get this sort of damp/mouldy smell from the tank. My wife always complains the room always smells and has gone to the trouble of putting air freshners around the room.

When i used plain gravel and laterite i never had this smell before.


----------



## boink

plantbrain said:


> Garbage gave me a rash. EC did not.
> Most do not swim in the tanks to do the planting, but it does give a rash.
> 
> I was super silthy mess, you could not clean it no matter how much we vacuumed, how many water changes, how fine of micro filtration you did.
> 
> Nothing worked, until we removed the soil, then the tank was supper clear and has been since.
> 
> Big job, one I would not had predicted at the start(the ADA As issue), but one I'll never forget.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Yea....i was the guy helping you syphon all that crap out...i got a rash also. Stupid stuff :icon_frow , but mine went away


----------



## plantbrain

shake said:


> Tom, how bad was the smell. Can you sort explain abit.
> 
> A couple of months ago I re scaped my 90g and this time used AS Amazonia. Now I get this sort of damp/mouldy smell from the tank. My wife always complains the room always smells and has gone to the trouble of putting air freshners around the room.
> 
> When i used plain gravel and laterite i never had this smell before.


Not a smell version of stunk, more the hassle meaning, "It stunk having to go to work at 4 am everyday"............

It did not literally stink...........

Yes, it does have a damp earthy moldy smell.
ADA sells a CO2 with forest pine scent in it to reduce that...........:icon_roll 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

boink said:


> Yea....i was the guy helping you syphon all that crap out...i got a rash also. Stupid stuff :icon_frow , but mine went away


*Thanks* for your help!!
Thanks for the feedback about that rash, two folks and the other guy, Juan got it also, he knew better. So I know that 3 different folks got a rash, not such rash occurred with the Eco Complete. Right now I really hate ADA Aqua soil.
I know it grows plants well, and rashes..........

You should stop by sometime in a month or two and see the new designed tank.
Looks much better, clear, clean, easier to take care of, easier to work on .........and no rash!!!!

I have not had any adverse reaction at my home tanks which all have ADA AS, but I'm not in the tanks that much.

Dang stuff...........well...........that phase is now entirely over.:tongue: 
I'll never use ADA for any large projects again, works very well in smaller scales where you can clean good, do not mess with the set up often etc. 

It was nothing short of a disaster for this tank though. 
I do not think anyone would had predicted it.
After trying all sorts of clarifiers, water changes daily, and just about any and everything you can think of, *the substrate had to come out.
*

As soon as it did, you could immediately tell it was the ADA AS that was the problem. We did not rinse the EC, nor anything really, upon filling the tank after a total tank breakdown, it was clearer than it'd ever been and continues to remain clear. I'll post some new pics in a day or two.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## boink

At first i thought the rash was from something in that pizza we ate, but could'nt figure it out. I guess its kinda like that swimmers rash that people get from the beach


----------



## Momotaro

I decided to replace the AS substrate in my 38G with a Bright Sand foreground and AS substrate.

I wore a T-shirt and scooped out the existing AS with my bare hands and arms and I did not develop a rash. :icon_roll 

Your rashes are probably due to something other than the AS.


Mike


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Just like swimmer's itch, which is not caused by substrate, your rashes are probably caused by something in the water or in the AS. Since the substrate is a living thing, maybe that tank developed something which not only caused your rashes, but the cloudiness?

If you have any of the AS, it'd be interesting to have a lab run a culture maybe?


----------



## plantbrain

Momotaro said:


> I decided to replace the AS substrate in my 38G with a Bright Sand foreground and AS substrate.
> 
> I wore a T-shirt and scooped out the existing AS with my bare hands and arms and I did not develop a rash. :icon_roll
> 
> Your rashes are probably due to something other than the AS.
> 
> 
> Mike


I'm afraid you have no idea the scale and amount of time of the exposure.
That's nothing compared to this, I agree few would find that exposure an issue.

If it was something else, say a critter in the water etc why didn't the rash appear after using Eco complete?

We used non sterilize stuff and there filter bio etc was the same etc.
I was in the tank several hours, not just my forearms, but my entire body.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> Just like swimmer's itch, which is not caused by substrate, your rashes are probably caused by something in the water or in the AS. Since the substrate is a living thing, maybe that tank developed something which not only caused your rashes, but the cloudiness?
> 
> If you have any of the AS, it'd be interesting to have a lab run a culture maybe?


So why didn't it occur afterwards? We used the same water without any sterilization, the plants and wood would have habored the critters also.

This tank has been bombed with Excel, which will kill most small critters, massive UV, 500watts, 5 micron filters etc.

No, the substrate clearly was not a biological cloudiness issue/s.
Nothing gets cloudy that fast, when things are taken proper care of.

I've used a lot of sediments over the years and know when something is causing an issue.

There are just too many filters, UV etc in this system to suggest that it's these other causes. 

We also only experienced it when the substrate is disturbed.
Not other times.

There's not much alive in an anaerobic substrate except bacteria and I've walked through hundreds of wetlands and swamps barefoot and never gotten a rash like this.

I'm non allegeric to most things and myself, Juan and Matt all got it as well.
Point is: do not spend too much time in that dirty water using this product.

EC caused no such issues........same tank and some of the same water(about 300 gallon's leftover), same wood, same plants, same roots etc etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Here's the new tank:

The large piece on the left is moved back about 4" and that seem to balance things with the right side, the piece is against the glass on the right due to a holding the piece which the client added later after the initial set up.

I'm fairly happy with the way this turned out, it's immediately after totally redoing the tank, I moved everything and pulled out all the plants except for the large piece of wood on the left.

I was pleased planting in EC, that went very easy by comparison to ADA AS. 
I have leaned to deal with planting in light weight soil using ADA AS, so that made EC a much nicer product after my first couple of experiences with it.
Looks nice at this scale. 










































Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## whitepine

We have the same cloudiness issues in the Tripledoor Tank. I contacted my ADA supplier about it with no success. I really don't feel like changing out the soil. I spend a fair amount of time in the water and haven't gotten a rash. I wonder if it was just your aquasoil. I will ask the other person that works on the tank and see if they developed a rash at any point.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## boink

Did you get the rash all over your body tom? I got it on my neck, and face.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

wow that loosk great. i like that even better then the first time around. you should post big pictures like that more often


----------



## plantbrain

whitepine said:


> We have the same cloudiness issues in the Tripledoor Tank. I contacted my ADA supplier about it with no success. I really don't feel like changing out the soil. I spend a fair amount of time in the water and haven't gotten a rash. I wonder if it was just your aquasoil. I will ask the other person that works on the tank and see if they developed a rash at any point.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


I only got it as did the other folks when it was disturbed.
It might be some reduced compound, organic more than likely.

Thanks for the feedback Whitepine, I knew that this client was going to have to work like a dog to kill themselves to keep things clear and clean.

It was a very bitter pill to swallow but after working and working in the tank, the client working on the tank for who knows how much(10-20 hours a week I'd say), it came time to do the radical change.

I know ADA As is great for plants.
It's terrible for large systems though.
We have watched the new EC and it was immediate. We knew exactly that was the cause of the cloudiness and mess.

I've vacuumed and ran a fresh water inflow at one end and then a sump pump at the other and ran it for 20 hours while cleaning the tank, the next 203 days later, still cloudy.

We have massive filtration going on here, every type of method to clean water, all the labor we need, etc, still, it would not stay clear.

It stinks to work on something for 50-60 hours over a long weekend and not have it come out right. Then come back and redo it again and have the same issue happen. 

I went above and beyond for this client to make it right and have finally succeed....it takes a lot of work and trials. 

I did not even bother contacting the supplier, why? It's a lost for the client and I am selling the ADA AS off at a reduced rate locally there instead.
I get screwed like this, although no one would have predicted it, I'm not going to ever use it for large systems again nor suggest it to anyone else either.

But for smaller tanks, sure.
Just do not swim in the stuff:angryfire 

Ichty ichty 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

boink said:


> Did you get the rash all over your body tom? I got it on my neck, and face.


I got it on my chest, upper legs, arms(both sides). 
It went away fairly quick. Juan noticed and was flipping out earlier.

I think some of it dribbled on you as you helped.
I have a pretty tough hide.

I do not get poison oak easily either, nor get other water born issues. I've been in many FW systems over the years and never had this type of rash before.

The sump had the old tank water so if it was in the water, it was still there after we removed it.

I just think there's something in the clay that when pulled up, causes rashes, I do not think it's biological pest etc, I think it's more chemical.

Not sure there but there are only a few anaerobes that are present in such systems and none I'm aware of that might cause such an issue.

Still, it made me mad after all the other issues I had with the ADA AS.
I have 36 bags of new ADA AS there and need to sell it off to get my $ back as well as recoup the old used material as well.
The client wants a 400 gal for the office and is not about to ever use the ADA AS againroud: 
I'd brought that down for that tank at a later date, but I think we will use EC from now on.

The tank is so much clearer and easier to work on now.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

I think I'll add some Eustralis narrow leaf to this tank and phase out the hair grass as the Erio's all grow in. They grow very well in EC, and they are a lot cleaner this way also. I think several feet of Erios would look nice

I split most of them in two so we had a lot more even with them being covered in "ADA dust". They look very nice against the EC.

I cannot wait to see how the plants grow in, they are fairly ratty and right after a replant. The Anubias took a beating. 

The left will be all Anubias on the back wall and will fill in great now.
The middle left will be narrow Java, the middle right will be Bolbitus and Wide leaf Java and the far right will be Bolbitus and Xmas moss.
That will make a nice layout for the rear.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## GDominy

Tom, I work in a fish store and I have had rashes similar to what you are describing. Recently I spent 2 solid weeks rescaping/cleaning/tearing down aquariums and had a rash that covered pretty much any part of me that was consistently wet. None of the tanks had AS in them.. but tanks with similar substrates really caused me problems.


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> Tom, I work in a fish store and I have had rashes similar to what you are describing. Recently I spent 2 solid weeks rescaping/cleaning/tearing down aquariums and had a rash that covered pretty much any part of me that was consistently wet. None of the tanks had AS in them.. but tanks with similar substrates really caused me problems.


What did the rash look like?
This was pimple city.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## GDominy

plantbrain said:


> What did the rash look like?
> This was pimple city.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Red and splotchy.. in extreme areas it looked like thousands of raised red bumps.


----------



## plantbrain

Yewouch!
This was not painful anymore than a pimple. 
I cannot rule out a lot about this, but who really knows, I know that for other reasons, I'll not use the ADA AS in large systems again however:icon_wink 

I got the rash consistently each time I was in the tank for extended periods and when the sediment was disturbed. So did others. I wondered why none of them wanted to get into the tank this last time

It maybe a myth, but I cannot rule it out either.
I do not do human test experiments for rashes.........
It's sort of too late at this point, unless I go down and redo the tank again (I sure hope not :icon_mad: )

*I think some folks have heard this and think that ADA is bad now.
No, it's not.*

I've never said nor suggested this.

It's still the best stuff out there and I really like it for smaller tanks.
I never had any issues redoing the smaller tanks, but I'm not swimming in them all day either.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

GDominy said:


> Red and splotchy.. in extreme areas it looked like thousands of raised red bumps.


Could be bacterial or critters......I too had consistently wet areas.
Maybe we got skin eating algae?

Haha

Well, there is a parasitic form of algae that does attack humans in Africa.
Seen pictures of it on folk's legs etc. Mist some Excel on it and off you go from the Doctors:hihi: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## kzr750r1

Must have some system on site to absorb all the fish or are they all carted somewhere else during the transformation?


----------



## boink

Mine was a little raised with red; the skin got nice and thick and leathery feeling too. Reminded me of the times i had poison oak, except for the weeping part


----------



## plantbrain

kzr750r1 said:


> Must have some system on site to absorb all the fish or are they all carted somewhere else during the transformation?


Yes, they went into 4 50 gal tubs with filters and a 60, 40, and 30 gal in the filter room.
Daily water changes:icon_conf 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Hopefully the client will send some pics in the future.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## tpl*co

plantbrain said:


>


Boy will the fish be surprised when they get back in the tank . 

Tom, what is the fine leaved plant in the background, the one that seems to be flowing down like a wall in this picture? Is it a java fern? What type?

Tina


----------



## plantbrain

Java fern narrow lead.
The client's wife thinks they look like "mops".

The tank needs time to bloom out, it's too fresh.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishscale

Any updates on this tank? I've been anxiously waiting for pictures!


----------



## plantbrain

I'm heading down to install a nice CO2 flower meter controller.
These can handle preciselt gas flows at high rates, unlike measuring 45 bubbles per second on a bubble counter vs 48 b/sec:hihi:

Tank is doing well, all the plants are growing well according to the client.

So in 2 weeks or so, I'll head down, program the CO2 unit, connect to a data logger, add the Neptune controller to the computer as well, add the O2 controller functionality and call it a day.

We added several layers of shade screening to reduce the light intensity down to normal tank levels. That caused a lot of headaches initially and getting stable CO2 at high flow rates as well.

I can tweak things etc and can address such issues in person, but clients often cannot and need things designed to be bullet proof.

At this scale, we needed to control CO2 much more accurately and this CO2 flow meter controller does just that.

Unlike a pH controller, this accrately measures and doses precise volumes of CO2 gas. That, more than a pH level is the most important factor.

Bubble rates are not that great as it is, but at this volume/rate of flow, they are total inadequate for a client.

The trade off?
1200$ each.
Yeouch.

Fun toy though:biggrin: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## footbeat

Couldn't help but wonder... this flow controller that you mention, is it something like this http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=FMAA2100_2200_2300_2400&Nav=gred02 I am not looking for anything high flow, just something to waste money on one of these days. Maybe for a 90 gallon tank. Furthermore... this goes on the low pressure side, correct?


----------



## plantbrain

Actually this is more what we are using:

http://www.alicatscientific.com/products/gas-flow-controller.php

A bit more.

The unit you looked at ought to be fine for some applications etc.

Given the importance of CO2 and the critical link, I do say that spending the $ relative to the tank, labor involved etc is worth the trade off.

Perhaps not for the rest of us po' folks:icon_lol: 

I'd never been able to justify such an item for that $ for any of my personal tanks. But it does look cool and has awesome functions, if it were 100-200$, I'd be all over it.

But for this price, I can set up a nice ADA tank.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Well, the client is getting things right, I still am working on adding a O2 controller and a special CO2 flow metering system, unlike anything seem in this hobby.

He still has a ways to go for scaping, but you get the general idea:





































All EI dosing methods. 


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mistergreen

wowza. beautiful garden..


----------



## medicineman

Very nice, Tom. 

Love the colourfullness of this tank, esp on such scale which is not easily done. I'd say the owner is somewhat on track.

That flow meter controller, looks like the one they use at garage workshop to pump nitrogen gas into tyres. If it is used to meter the flow of what people charge so much for, and not to mention capable of accurate high pressure readings, I'm sure it is pretty good for giant tanks.


----------



## dafunk5446

Wow I thought I had seen some nice planted tanks....guess not!


----------



## fishscale

Wow...those are the biggest angelfish I have ever seen.


----------



## knuggs

I just want to dive in head first. Absolutely amazing! I tip my hat to you.


----------



## plantbrain

Well, look at Amano's tank, he added Altums as well.
That's about the only tank at this scale.

This tank is getting very high tech as well.
Adding the CO2 flow meter controller, venturi diffusers, Web cam, fully controllable from anywhere for CO2, O2, Temp etc from anywhere in the world.

I'm adding the O2 controller next month.

since the O2 is independent and I'll set it for 8 ppm, the CO2 can be well mixed and higher than in other non O2 controlled systems regardless of plant health/growth.

This tank gets standard EI dosing. Nothing special.

I've tried to get the client to do daily dosing but he is away from the the place for a few days at a time, so that's not possible and I just do not trust the metering pump systems. Everyone we tried was way off. the client feeds the fish wekll when he's there and dose the same fo rthe plants, so it's not an issue for him.

The CO2?
That's an issue for many folks.
Current and dead spots in a large tank?
Huge issue.
At least it's now somewhat presentable:icon_redf 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jaidexl

That is an amazing tank, Tom. Thumbs up to you and everyone involved. :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

knuggs said:


> I just want to dive in head first. Absolutely amazing! I tip my hat to you.


Oh, that's how I prune in the tank. It's actually quite peaceful and relaxing. With the Eco complete, it's not messy at all, you bob your head up, and move very slow so as not to make ripples that distort your view.

At 2-2.5ft depth of water, this works nicely.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## tundragirl

exceptionally-well done my friend 
there are no words to decribe how much I am in awe of that tank.
Cindy


----------



## plantbrain

Just remember tanks this size with this much $ and fish in them when folks claim EI is "bad". The method is not the issue, we all make mistakes etc, the method is not at fault, we are. Take any method and I can promise you I can find several hobbyists who will get plenty of algae and bad mouth and blame the method.

Tanks like this etc do prove that higher nutrients, high fish loads, water changes, light, CO2 etc etc do work quite well even at massive scales.

I do not suggest that leaner methods do not work however, I advocate non CO2 methods more than most.

Exploring the higher end as well as the lower end gives a much better perspective of what is really going on than some assumed agenda based notion and it makes things much less confusing for a newbie.

That's why science works so well for figuring stuff out.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## aquanut415

HOLY ISHt! 

how many bps co2 are on this tank now in total and what diffusion method are you using??

WOW


----------



## plantbrain

Venturi CO2, what else? 

We lost/cannot track bubble rates.
See the top of this page for how we add CO2 and measure rates.

No one else uses that device for planted tanks, that much I think I can bet on

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Wasserpest

This tank is right up there in a category with Amanos large one. I can't say I am a big fan of the multicolored discus, but the plants and the whole scale is breathtaking.



plantbrain said:


> I've tried to get the client to do daily dosing but he is away from the the place for a few days at a time, so that's not possible and I just do not trust the metering pump systems.


Kinda surprises me, considering the rest of the high tech... I'd just take a appropriately sized container, dissolve the macros, and use a little pump to add the daily amount. Cheap, reliable, and fairly precise if you want to add the same amount of ferts each day.


----------



## zergling

amazing! :eek5: 

If this was in our office I wouldn't get any work done, cause I'll be staring at it all day long hahahaha


----------



## mrkookm

> *This tank gets standard EI dosing. Nothing special.*


*

What is the amount for each fert?




plantbrain said:



Venturi CO2, what else? 

Click to expand...


An 'efficient' in-line reactor maybe :hihi:*


----------



## knuggs

plantbrain said:


> Oh, that's how I prune in the tank. It's actually quite peaceful and relaxing. With the Eco complete, it's not messy at all, you bob your head up, and move very slow so as not to make ripples that distort your view.
> 
> At 2-2.5ft depth of water, this works nicely.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thats awesome! Do you get nibbled on or do they hide from ya? You need a pic with you sitting in the middle of the tank, that would make a good christmas card.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

now thats some cool sh!t


----------



## A Hill

Amazing job Tom, where did that hardscape go?!?!??!?!:icon_eek: 

And nice Altums, they're RED!?:icon_eek: 

Lots of color, texture, shape, fish, plants, wood, water, high tech stuff....

Yeah you've done a great job, isn't it great you where paid to do this?

Though life :icon_wink 

-Andrew


----------



## plantbrain

Don't kid yourself, even the client knows he'd much rather me doing the work.
Yes, I do enjoy challenging work, however, I do expected to get paid as well.
Then I do not mind working 20 hour days.

The tank could still be a lot better than this.
It will also have more time to mature and tweak the CO2 so more.
So in another 6-12 months, it'll start to really be a lot nicer I think.

I want to add a few species and remove a few plants etc. Add some better groupings etc. The client added the groups we see now.
Clients learn and become better gardeners also. 
They do not mind changing things to the oroginal plans I often suggest at the start....... later as they learn also.

When I do the 350-400 Gallon office tank, the discus will be removed from this tank and it'll become more a Amazon biotope.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

mrkookm said:


> What is the amount for each fert?


1/3 "*cup*" of KNO3 3x a week.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mrkookm

plantbrain said:


> 1/3 "*cup*" of KNO3 3x a week.


Wow! Only KNO3 is dosed?


----------



## bugboykaufman

All I can say is WOW!!! :icon_eek: . That looks like a lot of work!


----------



## plantbrain

mrkookm said:


> Only KNO3 is dosed?


No, but that's an idea of the volumes added.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mrkookm

K....:hihi:


----------



## kzr750r1

plantbrain said:


> When I do the 350-400 Gallon office tank, the discus will be removed from this tank and it'll become more a Amazon biotope.


Glad to hear that as the discus are all nice but do distract. I'm not a big fan of the hybrid discus, always preferred the wild form. Nice to see it getting a good restart, thanks for sharing Tom.


----------



## fishscale

Tom, since you are in the field, which public aquariums have the largest S.A. biotope tanks? Usually, when you think of public aquariums, you think of huge saltwater tanks, but I am sure that there are large planted tanks as well.


----------



## eon17

I have allways wondered that as well! i allways wish theyre were more freshwater tanks at aquariums butI hvae not been to many


----------



## plantbrain

Few public aquarist do large scale planted tanks. They take a lot of work and at such depths, become more and more difficult to keep up.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## kzr750r1

Well have to wait a year to see what happens at Steinhart in the fall of 2008.
Barring any delays of course.
http://www.calacademy.org/aquarium/new_steinhart.php
Any chance your involved in this Tom? I'll volunteer some swim time.


----------



## plantbrain

No, one of the contractors I work with often times is doing that.
Most public aquaria are very internally political. Steinhart is very much so.

Even after 75 years, 2 of their aquarist involved with the Local club, we could not get anything done:icon_cry: :icon_evil 

Even if you hands them 10-20K, they squabble and end up saying no in the end.
I know, I was on the BOD;s when the club tried to do this:icon_roll 

Public aquariums are every much a club and the aquarists themselves are woefully underpaid, but those that make such display decisions .........are after different goals.

From my end, it makes more sense to act as consultant, sub contractor etc, research liason etc. I know several ex Zoo folks that now do that instead.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

I guess Paula Abdul likes planted tanks:









Sadly I had to search her name to see who she was.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## bigstick120

How about a bigger photo


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> I guess Paula Abdul likes planted tanks:
> 
> Sadly I had to search her name to see who she was.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Any larger updated pics of the thank, Tom. Not so much interested in Paula Abdul pics.


----------



## plantbrain

2wheelsx2 said:


> Any larger updated pics of the thank, Tom. Not so much interested in Paula Abdul pics.


I'll be down there this coming week.

So Photo's perhaps later.

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

kzr750r1 said:


> Well have to wait a year to see what happens at Steinhart in the fall of 2008.
> Barring any delays of course.
> http://www.calacademy.org/aquarium/new_steinhart.php
> Any chance your involved in this Tom? I'll volunteer some swim time.


Nope, not asked.

They have some folks that come to the SFAS that do it.
They came to my talk there last month.

We will see what they do.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## SeaSerpant

Looking at your tank and WOW. GREAT JOB PLANTBRAIN.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Oh I really hope you get a chance to take and post some pics- I'd love to see how this tank has evolved since the last photos. :icon_eek:


----------



## Myka

Holy wowzers, that's freaking awesome!!!


----------



## ikuzo

plantbrain said:


> I guess Paula Abdul likes planted tanks:


i guess you don't watch american idol recently lol
waiting for the behemot's pics Tom.


----------



## plantbrain

ikuzo said:


> i guess you don't watch american idol recently lol
> waiting for the behemot's pics Tom.


No, not my cup of tea, bad music, huge egos........I'd rather be here:









Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## waterfaller1

WOW!:icon_cool


----------



## ColeMan

It's unfortunate those pictures never came....


----------



## legomaniac89

ColeMan said:


> It's unfortunate those pictures never came....


Yeah, Tom, any updates? 

You know, I always pictured you doing this massive, ungodly-big planted tank. I guess I didn't search hard enough, because you do . 

Absolutely unbelievable. This tank is right up there with Takashi Amano.


----------



## bklyndrvr

any updated pics of the original tank?


----------



## plantbrain

I will get some coming up here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## azndragoon402

that will be so cool


----------



## Riiz

This thread is a tease, every time I see a reply I quickly check it and no pics. :*(


----------



## airborne_r6

Riiz said:


> This thread is a tease, every time I see a reply I quickly check it and no pics. :*(


Yeah I went back and looked at the first posts to see the pictures and all I got was comments saying how cool the pictures were. :icon_cry:


----------



## masroberts9

lol. its been doing that for years apparently.


----------



## Hoppy

The problem is that the tank is owned by someone else, in that person's house, and isn't available to be photographed very often. Tom just provides some of the care and advice for the tank, so can only photograph it if he is there and the owner is willing to let it be photographed at that time.


----------



## Riiz

But where are the original links?


----------



## plantbrain

Hell frozen over.........New update:



















Does not look as big as you think..........but if you sit in front of it, relax in those chairs O death that fit you better than memory foam... sip some good wine after a long day..........

You realize that it's a community.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Trallen44

That is very nice!!!!!!!!


----------



## azndragoon402

Wow!!!!!!!!!! that is..............


----------



## Regloh

Very, very nice!! 
Too bad that the pictures can't convey the feeling you are hinting at 
Relax, comfy chair, glass of wine...
I could use some of that right now.


----------



## blair

thanks for the new pics! truly stunning...


----------



## infopimp

Best tank I've seen in a long time... amazing!!! Would love to watch video of that tank in motion.


----------



## Crystalview

To get a prospective of the depth of the growth. Do you know the how deep the growth is on the back wall? Say from the glass through the wall of greenery.


----------



## waterfaller1

Fabulous, thanks for the new pics Tom.


----------



## Veloth

Best tank I've seen.:icon_smil


----------



## plantbrain

Crystalview said:


> To get a prospective of the depth of the growth. Do you know the how deep the growth is on the back wall? Say from the glass through the wall of greenery.


About a foot.

There's a ton(literally) of driftwood in here. You cannot even see it now.
The tank is 12ft x 4 ft x 4ft and a 400 Gallon sump with dual overflows.

So it's an entire wall when you walk into the room and turn to see the length.

A video is a good idea. That's the only way to a get a sense of the scale and grandeur. Very hard to get any detail because the tank is so big.

This is not a glass tank, it's Acryic. Glass cost a lot more and would have to be made on site and would have cost 3x more at least and not been as strong. Access also would have been problematic vs Acrylic. Public aquaria use acrylic for those same reasons.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jinx©

Beautifully done.roud:


----------



## bklyndrvr

thank you. The tank is amazing.


----------



## plantbrain

Riiz said:


> This thread is a tease, every time I see a reply I quickly check it and no pics. :*(


A good tease makes it worth the wait.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Hoppy

Does the owner do routine maintenance on the tank? Pruning? Moving plants around? If so, that is one dedicated aquarium owner, and maybe we should offer him/her a free membership here?


----------



## plantbrain

Yes, he moves things around and does not scape specifically. So the details can be off as far as "a scape". He's gotten a lot better. Wild Discus would look better. He's got fish collectoritus, so wants to keep the large colorful ones and has little tank to put them elsewhere. The tank goal was more to consolidate a dozen or more tanks into one large one. Then a "450 Gal tank appeared" at the office:tongue:

So I'm not sure what is going in that tank.
I understand his plight.

My idea is to simply have each fish community a temp display and remove and sell them off etc. Amano does that with his large tank. 

It's not like he cannot afford to switch the species around etc.
At least you can catch these, the rose line catch was very tough.

Altums and Discus are easy to catch.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantted77

plantbrain said:


> About a foot.
> 
> There's a ton(literally) of driftwood in here. You cannot even see it now.
> The tank is 12ft x 4 ft x 4ft and a 400 Gallon sump with dual overflows.
> 
> So it's an entire wall when you walk into the room and turn to see the length.
> 
> A video is a good idea. That's the only way to a get a sense of the scale and grandeur. Very hard to get any detail because the tank is so big.
> 
> This is not a glass tank, it's Acryic. Glass cost a lot more and would have to be made on site and would have cost 3x more at least and not been as strong. Access also would have been problematic vs Acrylic. Public aquaria use acrylic for those same reasons.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


How's about that video of the tank...:drool:


----------



## plantbrain

plantted77 said:


> How's about that video of the tank...:drool:


It will be a little over a month before I do that.
Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jinx©

plantbrain said:


> Wild Discus would look better.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


The same thought I had when seeing the current stock. Still beautiful nonetheless.


----------



## Pinto

OMG thats a breath-takingly beautiful aquarium!!


----------



## plantted77

LoJack said:


> Thats one incredible photo!
> 
> What does a tank like that cost someone (just the tank itself, not everything you've put into it thus far)


In England I got a quote for a 10ftx4ftx4ft all glass tank and it was £7500!

I'm now getting a fibreglass moulded tank at the same measurements but with a 9ft w x 3ft h hole in the front (6inch frame all round) and it has a 10ft w x 4ft h x 1 inch thick piece of glass in the front for £1300 delivered!


----------



## plantted77

magicmagni said:


> That fish looks fierce! I'd think twice about pruning a tank with something with teeth that big. Is that a piranha?


Am I missing something?

Every time you say there's a picture I see no link or picture in the post!?


----------



## plantted77

plantbrain said:


> No, this is my ultimate game fish.
> This is what I want to catch in South America.
> 
> Hydroculus scrombiedes
> 
> You make the display so that it does not require lots of scaping work.
> Then like sharks and other predators, you use a screen when you go in to corral them to one side while you work. This is very common with public aquaria, but also with the pedator hobby crowd.
> 
> You folks never had dangerous fish or critters before?:hihi:
> I'm not going to be called "Stumpy" later :biggrin:
> 
> See that thread where the person got bit by their piranha here on PT.
> Lucky that's all that happened.
> 
> I've seen lots of "small community fish" in tanks, but the public enjoys the fast big pedators, and the public also likes gaint planted tanks.
> 
> So............
> 
> We run very high current a few hours each day for these larger pedators also, they need exercise when fed a diet of fish and other fatty high oil food.
> 
> They have better appettites, health and display when this is done.
> A fat lazy fish is not a healthy fish.
> 
> I call it "walking the fish" (like a dog etc) each day.
> Blasts crud and algae off plants, cleans up any mulm etc.
> Many good things come from this.
> 
> regards,
> Tom Barr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I've noticed this with a lot of fully grown/large Mbu Puffers!

They look overweight and loose the structure of their faces


----------



## Kolkri

Did not know discus come in those colors. Are they natural? or dyed?
That is very impressive.


----------



## Crystalview

Wild breeds have been cross breed and then recrossed again to get stronger colors and less bars and freckles.


----------



## Kolkri

Thank you for the info. The tank is just stunning. I would sit in front of that all day long.


----------



## plantted77

*plans for a 1200uk gallon 10ftx4ftx4ft Tropical Freshwater Tank*

Hello Tom/Plantbrain

First off this tank is amazing, I've posted links to it on all the aquarium forums I'm a member of and it's created a lot of stir, people are blown away by this tank!

I'm soon to have a 1200uk gallon 10ftx4ftx4ft Tropical Freshwater fish tank

The tank is for my soon to be 2.5ft Mbu Puffer

I'm planning on having mainly different kinds of moss in my tank and maybe a few other low light/easy plants

Here's a list of lowlight plants someone suggested I choose from:-
Ceratophyllum demersum
Egeria sp.
Elodea densa
Mosses
Aponogeton crispus
Anubia barteri nana
Anubia afzelli
Cabomba caroliniana
Ceratopteris cornuta
Cryptocorynes (all of them)
Heteranthera zosterifolia
Hemianthus micrantemoides
Hygrophila (all of them)
Limnophila aquatica
Limnophila sessiliflora
Lysimachia nummularia
Microsorum (all of them)
Myriophylum sp
Najas indica
Nymphaea sp.
Nymphaea sp rubra
Nymphoides aquatica
Sagittarias (all of them)

I've been informed by the same person that I should be able to get away without using a Co2 system with these types of plants/mosses

The tank will have 3inches of Eco complete and 3inches of sand on top

I'll have a 9 inch wall of polostyrene on both left and right walls and the rear wall of the tank which will be treated and sprayed to look like rocks, I'll be carving out the rocks and making scoops/pots in the walls to plant plants into the walls (hopefully the polostyrene will help keep the warmth in the tank).

I was hoping you'd be able to recommend which lighting and how much for a tank this size with these kind of moss/plants. I've been told that I should only need about 1wat per gallon for these moss/plants.

I'm going for a mixture/look of the planted tanks attached to this post (like I said I may only use different types of moss)

I have a sump design ready and if need be I've taken lot's of notes as to what Co2 equiptment you've listed/used. Would you be able to list the full names of the Co2 equiptment and give a price for each item?

The final tank will have the following fish in it:-

1 x 3.5inch Mbu Puffer (2.5ft Fully grown)
1 x 1.5inch South American Puffer (4inches fully grown)
2 x Pleckys (1ft fully grown)
20 x Guppy's
And maybe 6 to 8 different coloured Discus now I've seen your tank 

I would be sooo gratefull if you could help me out

Thank for your time and expertise


----------



## plantbrain

plantted77 said:


> Hello Tom/Plantbrain
> 
> First off this tank is amazing, I've posted links to it on all the aquarium forums I'm a member of and it's created a lot of stir, people are blown away by this tank!
> 
> I'm soon to have a 1200uk gallon 10ftx4ftx4ft Tropical Freshwater fish tank
> 
> The tank is for my soon to be 2.5ft Mbu Puffer
> 
> I'm planning on having mainly different kinds of moss in my tank and maybe a few other low light/easy plants
> 
> Here's a list of lowlight plants someone suggested I choose from:-
> Ceratophyllum demersum
> Egeria sp.
> Elodea densa
> Mosses
> Aponogeton crispus
> Anubia barteri nana
> Anubia afzelli
> Cabomba caroliniana
> Ceratopteris cornuta
> Cryptocorynes (all of them)
> Heteranthera zosterifolia
> Hemianthus micrantemoides
> Hygrophila (all of them)
> Limnophila aquatica
> Limnophila sessiliflora
> Lysimachia nummularia
> Microsorum (all of them)
> Myriophylum sp
> Najas indica
> Nymphaea sp.
> Nymphaea sp rubra
> Nymphoides aquatica
> Sagittarias (all of them)
> 
> I've been informed by the same person that I should be able to get away without using a Co2 system with these types of plants/mosses
> 
> The tank will have 3inches of Eco complete and 3inches of sand on top
> 
> I'll have a 9 inch wall of polostyrene on both left and right walls and the rear wall of the tank which will be treated and sprayed to look like rocks, I'll be carving out the rocks and making scoops/pots in the walls to plant plants into the walls (hopefully the polostyrene will help keep the warmth in the tank).
> 
> I was hoping you'd be able to recommend which lighting and how much for a tank this size with these kind of moss/plants. I've been told that I should only need about 1wat per gallon for these moss/plants.
> 
> I'm going for a mixture/look of the planted tanks attached to this post (like I said I may only use different types of moss)
> 
> I have a sump design ready and if need be I've taken lot's of notes as to what Co2 equiptment you've listed/used. Would you be able to list the full names of the Co2 equiptment and give a price for each item?
> 
> The final tank will have the following fish in it:-
> 
> 1 x 3.5inch Mbu Puffer (2.5ft Fully grown)
> 1 x 1.5inch South American Puffer (4inches fully grown)
> 2 x Pleckys (1ft fully grown)
> 20 x Guppy's
> And maybe 6 to 8 different coloured Discus now I've seen your tank
> 
> I would be sooo gratefull if you could help me out
> 
> Thank for your time and expertise



I'm not sure those fish will go well together, puffers will eat those other fish, I've had some puffers rip anything up, Mbu's are really bad, even the SA's ate every cardinal they got near till I yanked them out a few times. It's a huge risk.

You also cannot keep Amano shrimps and other useful alga cleaners nor keep a larger community. You really limit your choices. 

Adding the right fish that get along in large tanks is a skill. Public aquarist and folks that keep many tanks know this. Removing them is very tough once you add them.

I'm hesitant to say much more without you considering this issues very carefully. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Jdub777

Hmmm... where are these "pics" I hear people speak of? I don't see a link.


----------



## Jason Baliban

WOW!! Talk about IMPACT!! 

I bet this tank can keep your eyes busy for a few hours if you were standing right in front of it.

Nice one Tom!!

jB


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> Hell frozen over.........New update:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does not look as big as you think..........but if you sit in front of it, relax in those chairs O death that fit you better than memory foam... sip some good wine after a long day..........
> 
> You realize that it's a community.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


:eek5: This has got to be the most beautiful tank I have ever seen. You deserve 5 stars on this one! Adding my vote now. Do you change 50% of the water on this one weekly?


----------



## plantted77

plantbrain said:


> I'm not sure those fish will go well together, puffers will eat those other fish, I've had some puffers rip anything up, Mbu's are really bad, even the SA's ate every cardinal they got near till I yanked them out a few times. It's a huge risk.
> 
> You also cannot keep Amano shrimps and other useful alga cleaners nor keep a larger community. You really limit your choices.
> 
> Adding the right fish that get along in large tanks is a skill. Public aquarist and folks that keep many tanks know this. Removing them is very tough once you add them.
> 
> I'm hesitant to say much more without you considering this issues very carefully.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Hey Tom

I understand your concerns but my Mbu and SAP are already in a community tank with the guppy's, plecks, Fake Simese Algea Eaters, cardenals and 2 malawi.

I've had these Puffers for a while and am an avid member of ThePufferForum.com so have learned a lot.

SAP's are known as the freindly puffer but can be fin biters (only big flarey fins) but I've been lucky with mine. Mbu's are known to be generally a pieceful giant, the Fahaka is the large freshwater puffer you need to watch out for, they cannot have any tank mates at all as they are very aggresive and will tear anything you put in there to pieces.

There's a lot of Mbu owners on ThePufferForum that also keep their 18inch Mbu's with smaller schooling fish and have no problems. You're very unlucky if you get a vicious one!

If my Mbu does take a liking to the cardinals when he's fully grown I'm not to bothered as horrible as it sounds. The tanks mainly his anyway (and the SAP's). It's for this reason I'm not going to over stock the tank so that should help with keeping the Bioload in check. Mbu's are actually suppose to have a minimum of 1000us gallons so with my 1200uk gallons I've actually got 1441us gallons!

You're right about the Shrimps, they'll scoff them down in a flash, also my Mbu loves crabs and snails. I was hoping the Pleckys and Fake Simese Algea Eaters would do a lot of the cleaning up. At the moment they even eat the left over king prawn the puffers leave, I thought they were strickly vegetarians but obviously not 

I wasn't sure about the Discus but if I did get them I'd have a spare tank available to move them to if they really weren't compatible (I really don't think Naboo my Mbu will be a problem he's a very laid back. timid Puffer).


What ever happens I've got to get this tank for Naboo as he's going to reach 2.5ft when he's fully grown, even if it just ends up with him, Bollo the SAP a couple of 1ft Pleckys and some Guppy's I'll be happy with that. Just watching Naboo is engrossing enough 

If you could help with the lighting that would be great, Do you think 1watt per gallon is ok for moss and which light's do you recommend, T5's or Metal Halide or a combination of both (and how many)?

Like I said before for moss I've been advised that I'll probably be able to get away with no Co2 but I'd rather hear it from you

Thanks again for your expertise


----------



## infopimp

plantted77: Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, just about your tank and planning?

...because this tank is just too good for thread drift, even 20 pages in, don't you think?

EPIC Tank. Is this Arnold's tank, or what?


----------



## plantted77

infopimp said:


> plantted77: Sounds like a good subject for a new thread, just about your tank and planning?
> 
> ...because this tank is just too good for thread drift, even 20 pages in, don't you think?
> 
> EPIC Tank. Is this Arnold's tank, or what?


Hey infopimp

I have already posted a thread else where on this forum/website and although there was some response I never got my questions answered.

I then found this tank by Tom on Practicalfishkeeping Forums and couldn't believe my luck as it was a tank almost exactly the same measurments as mine bar the 2ft on length. I asked these questions there (I had also posted my Questions on that forum and aquaticplantcentral.com with no real answers). I also PM'd Tom but since reading this thread I've realised he's a very busy/in demand man so I thought I'd add to this thread to try and get a reply.

I don't think there's any chance of any thread/post hijaking this beauty, the tank's truley amazing and there's so many people buzzing about it!

So Tom if you get a momment spare can you please help me with my Q's (you can PM me if you want to save taking up more room on this qualify thread)

Tony


----------



## jinx©

Tom, Is there any chance of posting a high res pic? I'm thinking inspirational desktop wallpaper size (1440x900 or better)...lol


----------



## plantbrain

Jason Baliban said:


> WOW!! Talk about IMPACT!!
> 
> I bet this tank can keep your eyes busy for a few hours if you were standing right in front of it.
> 
> Nice one Tom!!
> 
> jB


One issue with a tank this size is simply getting enough plants to redo any groups or scaping ideas. That has to be the largest A reineckii I've ever seen.
But the picture of the tank is crazy, it's so large that you get little detail.

In looking at Amano's pics of larger tanks etc, he uses some very wide angel lens, so I'll try that. We have the 4x 1000 Watt MH's on top so we can turn those on for light instead of running 5 flash slaves........

I'm going to try and get some nice high res pictures with my Canon 5D.

The scape is what the client wants, a wall with a few branches(logs is a more appropriate term).........so I'll change a few things to get a more balanced look. Then shoot the pic, then we can change it back later.

He removed the 3-4ft Downoi foreground recently.
A video of the tank will be done in a month or so when I come down.
High res is needed to get the impact. The bad thing, the tank gets afternoon light so you have to take the pics at night late.

Most clients don't like you in their homes at night:icon_cool

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> :eek5: This has got to be the most beautiful tank I have ever seen. You deserve 5 stars on this one! Adding my vote now. Do you change 50% of the water on this one weekly?


Yep, 60% actually is where we set the PVC 2" drain, we have two valves and wish we'd put one of them on the very bottom looking back. That way we could drain the entire tank and get some of the fines out when doing water changes.

The water heads to a cistern for irrigation. You also cannot work on a tank this size or prune without doing large water changes => you have to get inside the tank, so being underwater is not an option. Some simply do not realize the tank is not 20" deep:icon_roll
This is 48" deep and the tank is up 3 ft(ADA's is smack on the floor), so it's 7ft plus the 12" lip. A bit like rock clmbing inside a tank. 
I float, the client hangs bat style from his legs. The water is warm and it's like a nice long relaxing bath. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

jinx© said:


> Tom, Is there any chance of posting a high res pic? I'm thinking inspirational desktop wallpaper size (1440x900 or better)...lol


No, many of the pictures at higher resolution end up elsewhere, folks do not ask perimission(unlike you), and post them all over, sell them etc. So I publicly post small resolution only starting some years ago after folks stated doing that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jinx©

plantbrain said:


> No, many of the pictures at higher resolution end up elsewhere, folks do not ask perimission(unlike you), and post them all over, sell them etc. So I publicly post small resolution only starting some years ago after folks stated doing that.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Point taken. Thanks for the response.


----------



## rountreesj

gah!!!!! I think my floor would fall through just thinking of something weighing 8 tons!

I aim to be Rich just so I can have a tank like this one day!

Awesome work Tom. (when is it not awesome...?!)


----------



## plantbrain

rountreesj said:


> Awesome work Tom. (when is it not awesome...?!)


It's not awesome when you have to go back inside the tank to remove a 280 lb rock, lift it up and out of the tank, extend over 2 ft horizontally, hand it to 2-3 people and no scratch or destroy too much.:icon_eek:



Or if you spot a leak in the CO2 manifold somehere, Fry another solenoid, some system control function, wood floating/moving around, looking for massive amounts of plants to fill in the tank.

Not easy.
But the next one will be far far easier.
That's experience:redface:


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## redfalconf35

Tom,

I'm just kinda curious as to how much this size class of tank costs to keep up and running. I'm sure between electric, water, CO2, etc. it would be significant. Are there any sort of expenses for this class of tank that you wouldn't necessarily run into in a smaller class of tank?


----------



## helgymatt

plantbrain said:


> I float, the client hangs bat style from his legs. The water is warm and it's like a nice long relaxing bath.


This would be very amusing to watch!


----------



## plantbrain

redfalconf35 said:


> Tom,
> 
> I'm just kinda curious as to how much this size class of tank costs to keep up and running. I'm sure between electric, water, CO2, etc. it would be significant. Are there any sort of expenses for this class of tank that you wouldn't necessarily run into in a smaller class of tank?


I do not pay the electric bill or water:thumbsup:
It's not much comparatively for folks with a tank like this.
I have about 400+ gallons and spend about 150$ a month. I like it and it's worth it for me, the water goes to the landscape for this tank as well as my own. 

You can ask a LFS, they use more water and electric since many have 2000-5000 Gallons or so, if not more. Reef stores even more.
Fish only tanks also use lots of water changes since that's the only export for NO3, fish breeders and public aquaria also. 

You start to question whether you need such a tank, but no one here needs a planted or a fish fish tank, it's a trade off we are willing to accept.
It's the scale that freaks folks out and sets off such thoughts, it's not based on real moral logic.

I asked Amano how much his gaint tank cost, he had troubles giving an answer, and rightly so, I know it would very tough to give someone an answer as well. Depends on what you include etc, labor, etc, what parts, etc.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## redfalconf35

well, it's good to hear that these gigantor tanks aren't really as much of a "vortex of doom" when it comes to money... You're definitely right that the scale is the primary factor that set off the questions in my mind. I was comparing setup costs in my mind more than maintenance costs because i'm more familiar with those costs, but it makes sense that much like the smaller class tanks, these mongo tanks are relatively cheap and easy to maintain compared to startup costs.


----------



## plantbrain

The tank is mostly easy to care for slow growing species. The tank is relatively easy to care these days. Once the plants all grew in, the client stopped calling so much:redface: That's typiclly a good sign things are going well. If they cal and talk to you a lot, that means there's an issue.

I think rather than doing an article on this tank's history etc, the client may do a book and some of the folks that have worked on the tank can give a few comments, and I can discuss some of the Science and equipment used.

Then say TFH can distribute the book etc............

It's a bit like Dupla's old idea with their large large that they did years ago, but this will have more science involved and practical matters and I'm not selling anything, no 700$ heater cables.:redface:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> Yep, 60% actually is where we set the PVC 2" drain, we have two valves and wish we'd put one of them on the very bottom looking back. That way we could drain the entire tank and get some of the fines out when doing water changes.
> 
> The water heads to a cistern for irrigation. You also cannot work on a tank this size or prune without doing large water changes => you have to get inside the tank, so being underwater is not an option. Some simply do not realize the tank is not 20" deep:icon_roll
> This is 48" deep and the tank is up 3 ft(ADA's is smack on the floor), so it's 7ft plus the 12" lip. A bit like rock clmbing inside a tank.
> I float, the client hangs bat style from his legs. The water is warm and it's like a nice long relaxing bath.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Wow. Water change of 60% weekly. I am sure the plants getting the water from the cistern are thanking you as well. It is a really beautiful tank. I didn't realize you had to get inside of it to maintain its beauty.

Do you come out with prunny fingers?


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Wow. Water change of 60% weekly. I am sure the plants getting the water from the cistern are thanking you as well. It is a really beautiful tank. I didn't realize you had to get inside of it to maintain its beauty.
> 
> Do you come out with prunny fingers?


Prunny all over. But, that's nothing new to me:









The issue of the water change volume came up on the local list, yes, it's a lot, but less than any LFS, less light than anyone here's total bill for light per gallon of tank, ADA does a similar routine etc. This guy does not care about the cost of water really, small tater when the home is 17,000 sqft. Anyway, if you know someone that can scape with 4ft long arms so the water changes are not needed and can get at things easily, I'd like to meet them. So there are trade offs, no one gets excited if it's a 10 Gallon tank, LFS, ADA, but the issue is still the same. This guy is a discus nut, telling them not to do a water change and test is impossible. So I work around it and look at the trade offs which are pretty good if we save that water and reuse it.

The organic approach to irrigation included getting rid of chloramines and the chemical used to detoxify and bind those. This is a soil bacterial approach and improves cycling and diversity in the soil. Another client also got on board with this. So that's a huge savings and doing the right thing. You are not saving much $ with a 10 Ga, with 2000-10000, or million's of gallons with lakes/ponds etc, now you are talking some serious $. It would be nice to get LFS's water to go to landscape and other businesses that have high water use. 600 gallons vs billions of gallons:thumbsup:
That's good water. What happens to wastewater also? We use it for landscape irrigation here and some use it for ground water recharge etc. It's not really "waste". 

If you have the $ to have tank this size, then you have the $ to pipe that water to a useful place. If you live in a high rise and have a 20 gal tank, this is not much of an issue either way. But these larger systems and usages, definitely. Farmers are pretty careful about the amounts of water they use and water only when they have to to gte a good yield. Urban users are terrible.........walk down the street here and you see a stready trickly down the storm drains all summer long and even when it rains, those stupid auto srinklers come on:icon_roll

I hate that. Then they spray pesticides like no tomorrow, that goes down there and kills the creeks and rivers. They make smart irrigation timers etc that measure the humidity and temp to ecide when to best irrigate.

Those should be mandatory when any new irrigation timers are sold.
497 gallons per day is the average Sacramento water use per home. 
Most all of this is for landscaping, lawns, etc. We are the worst water wasters in the state. LA was like 287 daily. I use 200 Gallons per week and not a drop makes it to the gutter. 

So issues like these get brought up and you soon realize there's a lot more things that go into a LFS, a large tank, and what you can do about the larger issues.

Something like this could lead someone to start a business saving water for irrigation landscaping etc, adding pond water to the client's homes etc if they install ponds etc.

I really like swimmng in natural systems and observing fish etc, so does this client, but this tank does give you that feeling without jumping in.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

helgymatt said:


> This would be very amusing to watch!


I'll get some pics of us doing that someime soon.
It's a headache, that's what it is.
A whicked one.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## mountaindew

Tom B,
Looks like a world class display you put together there. 
Nice work! 
ps I have always enjoyed your input, experience and inspiration.
MD


----------



## monkeyruler90

wow, that looks awesome! nice tank. cant wait for the video of the discus feeding. thatd look great!


----------



## plantbrain

Well, we will also show the equipment and a water change and me in the tank as well as the owner's method.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

droooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll

you suck Tom! 

that tank is beautiful and those discus are so vibrant. Awesome Job.

ps.. is that you in the picture?
Ken


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> Prunny all over. But, that's nothing new to me:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The issue of the water change volume came up on the local list, yes, it's a lot, but less than any LFS, less light than anyone here's total bill for light per gallon of tank, ADA does a similar routine etc. This guy does not care about the cost of water really, small tater when the home is 17,000 sqft. Anyway, if you know someone that can scape with 4ft long arms so the water changes are not needed and can get at things easily, I'd like to meet them. So there are trade offs, no one gets excited if it's a 10 Gallon tank, LFS, ADA, but the issue is still the same. This guy is a discus nut, telling them not to do a water change and test is impossible. So I work around it and look at the trade offs which are pretty good if we save that water and reuse it.
> 
> The organic approach to irrigation included getting rid of chloramines and the chemical used to detoxify and bind those. This is a soil bacterial approach and improves cycling and diversity in the soil. Another client also got on board with this. So that's a huge savings and doing the right thing. You are not saving much $ with a 10 Ga, with 2000-10000, or million's of gallons with lakes/ponds etc, now you are talking some serious $. It would be nice to get LFS's water to go to landscape and other businesses that have high water use. 600 gallons vs billions of gallons:thumbsup:
> That's good water. What happens to wastewater also? We use it for landscape irrigation here and some use it for ground water recharge etc. It's not really "waste".
> 
> If you have the $ to have tank this size, then you have the $ to pipe that water to a useful place. If you live in a high rise and have a 20 gal tank, this is not much of an issue either way. But these larger systems and usages, definitely. Farmers are pretty careful about the amounts of water they use and water only when they have to to gte a good yield. Urban users are terrible.........walk down the street here and you see a stready trickly down the storm drains all summer long and even when it rains, those stupid auto srinklers come on:icon_roll
> 
> I hate that. Then they spray pesticides like no tomorrow, that goes down there and kills the creeks and rivers. They make smart irrigation timers etc that measure the humidity and temp to ecide when to best irrigate.
> 
> Those should be mandatory when any new irrigation timers are sold.
> 497 gallons per day is the average Sacramento water use per home.
> Most all of this is for landscaping, lawns, etc. We are the worst water wasters in the state. LA was like 287 daily. I use 200 Gallons per week and not a drop makes it to the gutter.
> 
> So issues like these get brought up and you soon realize there's a lot more things that go into a LFS, a large tank, and what you can do about the larger issues.
> 
> Something like this could lead someone to start a business saving water for irrigation landscaping etc, adding pond water to the client's homes etc if they install ponds etc.
> 
> I really like swimmng in natural systems and observing fish etc, so does this client, but this tank does give you that feeling without jumping in.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Nice beard. Does it come with free fertilizers? 

Wow, don't take this the wrong way, but I thought you were older. With the knowledge you have in that head of yours I expected you were at least in your sixties. When you get there in like 40 years, you're gonna have a mega-brain people and people will travel thousands of miles for a chance to pick it. 

Actually, I am glad you knocked me down earlier when I started this hobby. I admit I really doubted the amount of water changes and felt it was wasteful. However, after getting ideas from you and others, I have found a lot of useful methods of disposing my water without waste. Mainly, my houseplants. By the way, they love you for the suggestion.

I am glad you are able to get your clients on board with irrigation. That is sad to see users just waste water to the point it is running down the street. (As bad as the water quality is around my area, I would like to slap some sense into them.) Good job, Tom! Keep up the good work on saving Mother Earth. :thumbsup:

By the way, I am glad to see this journal finally got the 5 stars it deserves!


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Nice beard. Does it come with free fertilizers?
> 
> Wow, don't take this the wrong way, but I thought you were older. With the knowledge you have in that head of yours I expected you were at least in your sixties. When you get there in like 40 years, you're gonna have a mega-brain people and people will travel thousands of miles for a chance to pick it.
> 
> Actually, I am glad you knocked me down earlier when I started this hobby. I admit I really doubted the amount of water changes and felt it was wasteful. However, after getting ideas from you and others, I have found a lot of useful methods of disposing my water without waste. Mainly, my houseplants. By the way, they love you for the suggestion.
> 
> I am glad you are able to get your clients on board with irrigation. That is sad to see users just waste water to the point it is running down the street. (As bad as the water quality is around my area, I would like to slap some sense into them.) Good job, Tom! Keep up the good work on saving Mother Earth. :thumbsup:
> 
> By the way, I am glad to see this journal finally got the 5 stars it deserves!



Well, folks fixate on one thing(say water changes, or test kits) and then ignore the rational tradeoffs they do for the method/action. Everything we do has trade offs, this world is not black and white like many try to sell you on.

A fair assessment of those trade offs for each *person* is required.
I read crap about "tailoring a routine to each aquarium's needs".
Screw that, tailor it to the owner and aquarist's needs and routine for their goals.

It's for us, not the aquarium!
What matters to us?
What do we do with the waste?
To some, that's a resource, not a "waste".

When you put it to other folks that way, then they see that's financially a good idea, and you are doing the right things also. This way it's a win win situation for the client, for their $ pocket book, their labor(what do you think these guys get per hour of labor?), the maintenance, consistency, the expertise required to operate things, can have any bioload that they want/feeding routine etc.

You need to look at all the trade offs, then chose what is the best option for each person's goals. It might not be EI at all, it might be non CO2, a sustainable no water change/no testing/ much more "natural" approach.
But then folks claim they are more natural not doing water changes but have high light/CO2 gas enrichment and inorganic nutrients? How can you claim it "more natural and ecologically minded" when you do that? And if you do something with the water after............then that issue is not there any more........, so such arguments are really pretty much mute and poorly thought out and not based on logic or nature:thumbsup:

If someone does have that more sustainable goal, I can certainly fulfill that need/goal. There are some trade offs there too, but that's the way this stuff works. 

I see destroyed habitats and think restoration opportunity. I see natural habitats, and think preservation. But someone else might see horrid eye sore, good place to build tract homes, or see natural habitat as a place to drill for oil. Folks place different values on things. Get use it and work around and with it. Try and change those values and look for alternatives to get win-win for both/many sets of folks and view points. One method will not meet all those different goals.

Yes, that is me in my natural habitat.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sewingalot

Tom,

I think that was my problem originally. I wanted to fixate on the water changes and not think about my trade offs. Sure, I did less water changes, but I was using chemicals weekly to test for my phosphates, nitrates, nitrites, etc. 

Not until you challenged my beliefs did I realize how wasteful I was being. I think you pointed this out best: what is more harmful to the environment - the chemicals or the water changed? With your challenging my basis, I had to make a decision on what I truly wanted out of aquariums.

I took your advice and quit piece mealing and started ignoring the bad advice and misconceptions I had. Between you and others with experience on this board, I have a better understanding on how to have a successful setup. Decide what you want, how you want to go about getting there, and except the consequences of that decision.

So, a big THANK YOU is what I am sending your way. 

Sorry to go off topic and derail from your client's beautiful tank.


----------



## plantbrain

sewingalot said:


> Not until you challenged my beliefs did I realize how wasteful I was being. I think you pointed this out best: what is more harmful to the environment - the chemicals or the water changed? With your challenging my basis, I had to make a decision on what I truly wanted out of aquariums.


We all can save and reduce our impact on the environment, but.........there are trade offs such as owning a tank in the first place. Then should we all use non CO2 methods as well since less is better???? Only own 1-2 small tanks?

Suddenly folks start going ......."well, I still want my CO2/nutrients etc.......I'm not willing to give that part up!" but then wanna whine about "wasting"(which is a very speculative and questionable term, a political term perhaps?) little water? Each person needs to weigh that trade off for themselves. But folks need to be fair, not political PETA style about it also.
That often occurs because folks generally only do one method, so that's what they suggest. But then "hyperbole is the greatest thing ever?":redface:
But folks should not inject that BS into this, that does not help further the hobby, or the knowledge. If something works, they need to ask why it works and what factors ar important? Same with the trade offs to management of the tank etc. What can we say and what are some possible issues we might have?

They need to ask the person what their goals are, what trade offs matter to them. You need several methods to help many goals, and then be able to modify them further to reduce impact and make life easier and more green, save more $ etc. Otherwise, you limit yourself, the methods and your ability to help others achieve their goals in and well balanced way.

Not everyone will, but then again, this is not their client, and the results of applying that type of method to this guy would be a distaster. So you'd lose the client and produce a failure. That's occured on a 400 Gallon tank but due to cost factors and their goals where not realistic with another client, then they tried to screw me $$$ wise.

So this can be a huge issues if you do not address things right away and make sure things are well thought out and understood upfront. Folks with clients got stories:thumbsup:



> Decide what you want, how you want to go about getting there, and except the consequences of that decision.


..........that is a profound enlightened statment. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## @[email protected]

speaking about environmental impact, where does the CO2 we get refilled in our canisters come from? i always figured it was either compressed from the atmosphere or a byproduct of something else. it would be pretty dumb to combust something just for the CO2, and not use the energy you get from it. and if it is removed from the atmosphere or a byproduct, than we are lowering our carbon footprint by having plants use it up. 
besides i think (didnt do any calculations whatsoever) that the carbon that outgases out of our tanks is much less then would be used up by say a tree. so if anyone is worried about contributing to global warming, plant an extra tree. besides with how much carbon is put out for agriculture and industry, home use doesnt even compare.

btw, what is "wasting water"? it all cycles back. the only problem is resevoir depletion. and that not too big of a problem in the US. our aquafiers are doing pretty good. besides in some areas (like mine) there is so much rainfall, our water tables are stable, and occasionally get too high in spring and fall.


----------



## fishboy87

just saw the first picture. . .*faints*


----------



## kyle3

can we trade jobs Tom? 
lol, that tank is stunning, really great job!
cheers-K


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> speaking about environmental impact, where does the CO2 we get refilled in our canisters come from? i always figured it was either compressed from the atmosphere or a byproduct of something else.


Yes, it's nabbed from by products of many different reactions.
But then there's the transportation, the pressurizing it, and electrical use associated with adding it etc. This adds up lso, but not much, since a 10lb tank will last 100 gallon tank maybe 1 year.



> besides i think (didnt do any calculations whatsoever) that the carbon that outgases out of our tanks is much less then would be used up by say a tree.


This is a good point and brings up a simple question: how much of the CO2 do we add, do we lose, eg, how much % of the gas we add actually gets to the plants and is fixed?

I'd say 5-10% at best...............

Say your CO2 is off some, you get some algae, twisted tips etc, and you also no logner get 100% of the light, say maybe only the plants are able to use say 70% now...........and your plants do not look as good.
So the goal of gardening and nice thick lush tank is suffering as well.

So you are wasting light electric cost now as well.
Maybe you got too much light and have been wasting it all along?

Clearly you can grow nice tanks without much light also.



> so if anyone is worried about contributing to global warming, plant an extra tree. besides with how much carbon is put out for agriculture and industry, home use doesnt even compare.


You make that cut off somewhere that's reasonable to you. You don't save a nickel and spend a dollar. Get rid of the aquarium, since you do not "need" it. Go non CO2 for a more sustainable approach, but if you want CO2 methods, then you can modify things where it starts, use lower light intensities. That's what we did here with this tank.



> btw, what is "wasting water"? it all cycles back. the only problem is resevoir depletion. and that not too big of a problem in the US. our aquafiers are doing pretty good. besides in some areas (like mine) there is so much rainfall, our water tables are stable, and occasionally get too high in spring and fall.


Well, how about the guy next door to me that is irrigating the lawn even though it's raining today? The water is going down the strom drain, the guy puts 2,4 D, organophosphates to kill insects and ants, on the lawn to kill the broad leave weeds, dumps all sorts of crap on it, which also ends up guess where? The local Creek. Which ends up in the Sacramento River, which goes to the SF Bay, out to the ocean where fisherman catch and sell fish all along this route.

That's waste. 

The water change water if you send down the septic/toilet etc, hopefully.....heads to the waste water treatment plant where they clean it up good, then send it out to do many other possible functions. So even if it heads down the drain, it's still going to get used again.

Fish tanks are not this huge burden that some seem to imply on the environment due to the water use. LFS's? Pool owners? Lawns? Hot tubs?
Shrimp farming? Fish farming? Farms in general? They use 40-50% of CA 's water to irrigate crops. Desert farming. Food growswhere wate rflows, you see that all over here. Rice farmers flood their fields, use laser leveling to reduce water use and increase yields, then that water heads over to the orchards next door. Then after they flood fields for the rice, they lower it back down and dry farm the rice. The water flooding is used to kill/supress terrestrial weeds. So they use less herbicides and pesticides, rice can be grown entirely out of water, but they do this to prevent pest.

Is this really a waste of water? Same type of trade off here.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## @[email protected]

so you say most of our CO2 is wasted?
obviously its individual per tank (light, plants, surface movement, etc.), but i would have hoped it to be higher. after all, the point is to only add as much CO2 as the plants go up, so the tank has stable CO2 all day long, and then maybe have it drop a touch at night. 



organophosphates? on a LAWN!?
is he INSANE?

they are used in industrial farming, and are the second worst (to the environment) pesticides (organochlorines are the only worse ones, and they are illegal). according to my APES teacher, they are so bad they are likely to be banned in the next decade.

its a lawn, you let the plants do their thing, not worry about a few holes in leaves so long as the plant is fine as a whole and occasionally if you get a really bad mite infection spray the plant down with clove oil.

now that is just unbeliavable.


----------



## sewingalot

Your neighbor is disturbing....and unfortunately, there are a lot of people like that around here as well.


----------



## plantbrain

kyle3 said:


> can we trade jobs Tom?
> lol, that tank is stunning, really great job!
> cheers-K


Well, I'll say this, the client's I have are committed, they have their own ideas and goals, but they are willing to achieve them. So they have a lot of efforts and work, I'm more a guide to get them there with less/least amount of pain. 

And we all know how much of self inflicted pain we do to ourselves
My first job was taking care of aquariums at the Fish Gallery after school, got 2$ a hour. Picked up bird and lizard poop, vacuumed tanks, changed floss/carbon in the box filters, cleaned air stones, mixed salt water, scrubbed GSA off old tanks.

Did pretty well for a 10 year old.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

@[email protected] said:


> so you say most of our CO2 is wasted?
> obviously its individual per tank (light, plants, surface movement, etc.), but i would have hoped it to be higher. after all, the point is to only add as much CO2 as the plants go up, so the tank has stable CO2 all day long, and then maybe have it drop a touch at night.


Nope, you an do the mass conservison forn the dry weight biomass ratio and amount per month/6, 12 months you use to scale it up to say a 10lb tank of gas. It's a huge loss. Not much is sequestered into plant biomass and fixed.



> organophosphates? on a LAWN!?
> is he INSANE?


UC Davis does storm water runoff sampling and it's fricking scary. These things are banned for ag use, but there are old sources sitting in garages, Chloropyrio's, all sorts of stuff, endocrine disruptors, stuff we have very little clue on what happens to stream biota. Urban streams and runoff is like point source pollution.

All cause some folks like nice green lawns and hate ants.

[qote]
they are used in industrial farming, and are the second worst (to the environment) pesticides (organochlorines are the only worse ones, and they are illegal). according to my APES teacher, they are so bad they are likely to be banned in the next decade.
[/quote]

Rightly so, in CA, it' s a lot different, we have our own strict Dept of Pest regulation. It's mostly insecticides that pose the biggest health and safety risk, not herbicides. However, by shear volume, herbicides are the larest by volume of the pesticides used.

My research gets around pesticide permitting which is very costly for ag and state lands, irrigation districts etc, but using a non thermal pulsed electric fields to zap them with minimal energy output(the pulses allow this to hit a peak critical voltage with very little total energy output), but it only works on saturated flooded soils(like rice paddy, aquatic weed tuber issues in irrigation ditches). Cost is cheap, and no chemical issues, you can use the water 1 second later. The system is $$$ to do due to the power supply and function generators etc. A NPDES permit runs about 6-10K$ to use herbicides in aqutic water ways, then the cost of the stuff, then several years of treatment to beat the stuff down, 100K$++. Dredging is 500K$++. So this works pretty well .



> its a lawn, you let the plants do their thing, not worry about a few holes in leaves so long as the plant is fine as a whole and occasionally if you get a really bad mite infection spray the plant down with clove oil.
> 
> now that is just unbeliavable.


Well, depends of the cost of keeping it that way is worth it for you to do this and if the attitude of the person paying the bills can be changed and shown that it has a lot more benefits for them $$ wise, management wise, and doing the right thing envionmentally.

The irony here with this tank is that it's large, and we reuse the water for the irrigation system, but folks still freak over the water because it's large tank.
This guy does not care about the $, the attitude is more the issue for them. 
Another client I have it's all 3 things. These folks have the $ to set it up right from the start however.

Then they have such options.
So you can change attitudes and show them many different methods and reasons to change their evil ways:thumbsup:
That's much easier I find when you address each issue like waste, organic approaches, cost less, still have good easy management, can reuse the water etc that links into the organic landscaping approaches that link to non chemical methods/trade offs.

Maybe he has a few more weeds etc than the guy next door, but then again, they have the $ to pay a guy to weed and garden the issue away. Farmers with 10,000 acres of rice? No way, irrigation water districts with 1200 miles of canals? No way either.

Aquarist can do anything they like with virtually no trade offs, other than their personal perferences etc. They just need to be creative and see trash/waste as a resource that can inegrate into their entire lifestyle.
I recycle 95% of the solid waste, very little gets to the trash can that goes to the dump(1 cubic ft a week about if that).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Hell had an ice storm too, more pics from old days, nothing special photography wise, but gives a few different perspectives:





































Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## pandapr

nice tank !! I always wondered how you feed such a large number of discus when you have an even larger number of fast eating and swimming angels on the same tank? besides lots of food, any technique ?


----------



## Down_Shift

way too intense jebus..


----------



## plantbrain

pandapr said:


> nice tank !! I always wondered how you feed such a large number of discus when you have an even larger number of fast eating and swimming angels on the same tank? besides lots of food, any technique ?


Lots of food and waiting. Cones are also used.
It's a challenge to fee large diverse tanks.
But part of the fun also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sewingalot

This is too beautiful. Why can't I have this beautiful tank?


----------



## speedie408

Spectacular! You're my hero Tom. Excuse my ignorance, but how old are you and how long have you been into the planted tank business. I just wanted to get an idea of what it might take for me to get there one day. haha I guy can dream right?


----------



## nkambae

*hydrocylus?*

I've enjoyed watching the progression of this project. Especially the application on a larger scale of the same things I've been attempting (after learning about them here and your site) in my own tanks. More light drives the plants. Then I need more CO2 and good distribution. All the while keeping up my dosing to ensure my weeds aren't limited. And if I have algae issues check all of the above and figure it out instead of assuming. Your results have been quite spectacular even with your client mucking about in the tank and the ADA soil disaster. It's a good thing he is knowledgeable and amenable to suggestions!

Now, inquiring minds want to know:



> No, this is my ultimate game fish.
> This is what I want to catch in South America.
> 
> Hydroculus scrombiedes


When you go south to catch some of these payara beasties (Hydrolycus scomberoides), are you going to go low tech with a fly rod or high tech with one of those fancy space age spinnin' type rod and reel with all them fancy gears and ball bearings and stuff in 'em? While you are down there, don't forget about the golden dorado (Salminus maxillosas) or the peacock bass (Cichla sp.). 

That is if you can spare the time from gawking at all the plants! Good luck.

Have you thought about going to Africa for Hydrocynus goliath? If you like big toothy buggers, they might fit the bill as well.

stu


----------



## plantbrain

Heck, I'd be happy with a few golden trout on the John Muir trail, or a Muskee in your neck of the woods.

So many tasty fish:redface:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## nkambae

*too true...*

Pretty much anyplace with water is a good place for me to be.

stu


----------



## Aennedry

Oh that tank is just beautiful. I could sit for hours watching the fish swim...


----------



## dthb4438

I can't seem to get any pics of this tank at all. I don't see any links or anything. Am I doing something wrong?


----------



## plantbrain

Pics are coming up for me.

See one page back........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Ashok

This is the stuff of fantasy for me. Fantastic setup.


----------



## plantbrain

Some more pics:

The room itself:









Top of the tank's emergent growth










And some of the angels:










regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## CL

plantbrain said:


> Top of the tank's emergent growth


Oh my Lord!!! 
:eek5:


----------



## legomaniac89

Hey Tom, can you come do one of these for me?

jk, but man do I want this tank. Awesome job


----------



## plantbrain

legomaniac89 said:


> Hey Tom, can you come do one of these for me?
> 
> jk, but man do I want this tank. Awesome job


Happy to do a smaller version, what's your budget?
:redface:

Regards, 
Tom barr


----------



## CL

That blyxa is incredible. I just noticed it.


----------



## plantbrain

Due to the time required and the pain, the client waits 2-4 weeks between trimmings. If you have 3-4ft of height in a tank, that can be used before trimming:redface:

I have some pics where the A reineckii is 4ft tall, L cuba, 3.5 ft tall, R macrandra, 3ft tall, Giant hygro is really giant, 3-4ft tall etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

You can also see the Loc Line used to direct current in various spots.

This tank had only one type of algae issue, diatoms.
Which is strange, but it was due to the light, 1000W MH's are much like the sun.

If we ran them much more than 2 hours, we'd get diatoms.
If they are run for at Hours or less, no issue. So we put light blocking screen over them to reduce intensity.

The tank would be better served using 8x400w HQI MH's and run the front 4 for 3-4 hours and the back for 3-4 hours.

There are T8's and PC's as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Raul-7

Are those Altums (the group of smaller angels)?


----------



## plantbrain

Yep,
That they are.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## gogreen

wow what a big tank..i wonder how they trim it LOL in a scuba gear? lol


----------



## H82LOS3

wow im speechless....................thats my dream tank


----------



## legomaniac89

plantbrain said:


> Happy to do a smaller version, what's your budget?
> :redface:
> 
> Regards,
> Tom barr


Uh, what can you get me for under $20?


----------



## plantbrain

Well, spent a few hours working on the tank, but it will take a lot more work to get it where I and the client want.

I noticed discus fry on the skin of the Blue diamonds...........about 3/4" now, and living in a community take with loaches, shrimp, and many other species.
The Angels are all tank bred in this tank now also. 

The Altums did not die, I saw them over at a pet shop, he removed them and they are being kept elsewhere for the time being.

The downoi and some other stems are being removed a moss windolov fusion on wood is being used for foreground. Much easier to care for over time.

The CO2 data is awesome using the CO2 meter, very easy to dial in the CO2 and the response time is really nice.

I'll post pics today late or tomorrow.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## macclellan

Tom, doh! That reminds me I totally forgot to post this after our PMs. Here's a photoshopped version of two of the above pics, fixing the overexposure of the tank above and giving a more tranquil sense of what it must be like to chill out in that office...I can only imagine...


cheers,
J


----------



## helgymatt

macclellan said:


> Tom, doh! That reminds me I totally forgot to post this after our PMs. Here's a photoshopped version of two of the above pics, fixing the overexposure of the tank above and giving a more tranquil sense of what it must be like to chill out in that office...I can only imagine...
> 
> 
> cheers,
> J


Sweet! Its amazing what a little "photoshoping" can do.


----------



## plantbrain

macclellan said:


> Tom, doh! That reminds me I totally forgot to post this after our PMs. Here's a photoshopped version of two of the above pics, fixing the overexposure of the tank above and giving a more tranquil sense of what it must be like to chill out in that office...I can only imagine...
> 
> 
> cheers,
> J


Thanks, looks better.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## legomaniac89

Anything new here?


----------



## Centromochlus

Amazing tank.. i hope someday i'll be able to have one like that!

Great job. What an inspiration.


----------



## vtkid

that is what heaven looks like, I am seriously in awe... hail Tom, hail Tom


----------



## Damian Smith

Where are the pics?


----------



## Avianwing

what are the dimensions of this- looks like a 12 feet long by 4.5 feet wide by 4 feet high to me.


----------



## plantbrain

Yep, with a 400 gallon sump.
Total tank volume is 1600 Gallon.

I'll get some new pics up some day:redface:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## RipariumGuy

That is a sick aquarium Tom! Amazing job!


----------



## IntegraJoe

this tank is simply a piece of art


----------



## yikesjason

I spent about an hour looking through this thread, but I didn't see anything about how you created the NL java fern wall. What is it attached to? What more can you tell me about it?


----------



## CardBoardBoxProcessor

Necro post @[email protected]


----------



## plantbrain

White sand replaced the foreground, Wild Discus are replacing the gaudy dinner plate colors.

Will get pic update in a couple of weeks.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Sounds great, can't wait to see the pics. Wilds would look fantastic in this setup.


----------



## plantbrain

Hell frozen over.
Not the best pics, I was working and did not have time for a decent photo shoot.




























Tank looks immensely better/improved, the owner' has taken more effort and thought into both keeping it up and the long term design.

You cannot see the roots from the aunbias well in these pics, but they are nice and dramatic. Same for the 450 Gal office tank.

The plants and tank was not doing as well, which is why I came down. CO2, what else is new. The CO2 probe had not been calibrated in some years so it was way over due. It was about 2x off, so a reading of 40ppm was really 20 ppm.

The other tank at the office?
Was doing well, and the CO2 was about 46-48ppm.

White sand foreground is good/looks better. The wild discus look much better, they will be the main theme(about 30 of the some of the largest & nicest I've seen, in quarantine). _Hemiodus gracilis _ is a really nice fish for such a tank.

LED lighting was added and can give many different lighting set ups and effects on this tank, but these must be seen in person, no way to get a picture with such little lighting as is.
Sorry for the blurred pics, but something better than nothing.


----------



## MissGreen08

The discus are amazing. Seriously gorgeous!


----------



## Rockhoe14er

wow is all i can say.


----------



## waterfaller1

This is the same tank?
I don't really like all the mixed colors of discus. I think these look much better.Amazing!


----------



## lauraleellbp

I think it looks much more natural, I very much like the new plant arrangement. The swords make a nice midground.


----------



## Gembirdie

Where's the picture? I'd like to see it too!


----------



## Gembirdie

Ok, I found it - it just looks like it took a long time loading, which confused me totally.

I can't believe this - and this is in your home, not in a public building???
It's absolutely incredible!


----------



## plantbrain

MissGreen08 said:


> The discus are amazing. Seriously gorgeous!


They look much better in person, as does the tank

Really a good tank to look at now.

I teased the owner about the gaudy discus, these are far more appropriate.
Yes, the angels will be removed, they are very large angels, as are these wild discus. The Discus in Quar look really really nice.

Once the tank is finished and some the fish are removed, then it can be loaded with the right grouping. Electro shock is required to catch them unfortunately. No way you can net these in this tank without a complete tear down(out of the question). CO2 gassing them is the other option, but certain species will definitely die, not sure with electro fishing either though.


----------



## Gembirdie

I've just shown these pictures to my husband and he asked a good question: how do you to the maintenance work on so big a tank? You go snorkeling? No, I mean this is a serious question.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Yikes... what about trying to net the angels after dark instead?


----------



## inkslinger

WoW any pic's of the co2 setup would like to see the 24in reactors?


----------



## helgymatt

Really great Tom! I like the white foreground and the simpler, mass plantings. Wild discus are awesome.


----------



## Buff Daddy

I would love to spend a few hours in front of this amazing tank... Incredible!


----------



## Hoppy

Wow! It did get a lot better. I get the impression that the owner is doing most of the routine maintenance, plantings, etc. now? Is this one of your 40 micromol lighted, but high CO2 tanks? If so, that should become the new standard for planted tanks.


----------



## Cuchulainn

Tanks simply amazing Tom.
Have an i.d. on the wild discus? I agree they look loads better than the confetti look of the other discus.
Hope you/ your client doesn't mind I snagged a pic for my new inspirational desktop photo


----------



## Joe.1

What an awesome tank. I bet the maintenance is a chore in itself.


----------



## A Hill

Tom that tank rivals Amano's in my opinion. Excellent work between you and the owner. 

The simplicity of the scape is great. It really shows how large the tank is also, using the amazon swords as midground plants! Excellent.

-Andrew


----------



## houseofcards

Congrats on that setup. I think it clearly shows how planted freshwater can blow away a large scale reef project.


----------



## waterfaller1

Electro shock or CO2 gassing?:frown::frown::frown:
How about a drain, catch, refill? I have caught fish in saltwater tanks full of liverock. Fast fish like wrasses and tangs, much faster than these. There has to be a better way. Two people, one herds, one catches, with several large nets, block off pathways. It can be done without those barbaric methods, please!


----------



## plantbrain

Gembirdie said:


> I've just shown these pictures to my husband and he asked a good question: how do you to the maintenance work on so big a tank? You go snorkeling? No, I mean this is a serious question.












The owner has scuba gear, much better than hanging bat style and getting a mean headache.


----------



## plantbrain

lauraleellbp said:


> Yikes... what about trying to net the angels after dark instead?


They are smarter than that, all of them are.

I tried some.

Forget it.


----------



## plantbrain

inkslinger said:


> WoW any pic's of the co2 setup would like to see the 24in reactors?


We just needlewheel through a pair of large rio's.


----------



## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> Wow! It did get a lot better. I get the impression that the owner is doing most of the routine maintenance, plantings, etc. now? Is this one of your 40 micromol lighted, but high CO2 tanks? If so, that should become the new standard for planted tanks.


No, it's less, most of the day it's about 10 micromol, then 3 hours of about 50.
20 is the threshold for most species.

CO2 is more the issue.
Light is just right for this tank.


----------



## plantbrain

Joe.1 said:


> What an awesome tank. I bet the maintenance is a chore in itself.


It was......but not too bad now/these days, he's settled in to a decent routine.
We have a great maintenance store there in Van Nuys, Rainbow Pet.
Juan takes care of things when the owner is gone, but it's mostly his planting/gardening, I got him going and set up most of the wood, but he's altered things here and there to suit, he's come a long way. He makes me proud.:icon_mrgr

I'll be doing 2 nice scapes for Rainbow pet this Summer for display tanks.
They have plenty of plants from trimming.
They also are making a large import facility to get amazon fish directly.

The tank just looks great in person, certain up there with large public displays, way beyond any hobby tank level. The data acquisition is also second to none. Real time O2, CO2 data logging.
No one does that.

It was a real headache, but now completed, it is really nice. 
The owner put in a video security camera to watch the tank as his screen saver at work, so the full tank look viewing seems to have helped.


----------



## plantbrain

waterfaller1 said:


> Electro shock or CO2 gassing?:frown::frown::frown:
> How about a drain, catch, refill? I have caught fish in saltwater tanks full of liverock. Fast fish like wrasses and tangs, much faster than these. There has to be a better way. Two people, one herds, one catches, with several large nets, block off pathways. It can be done without those barbaric methods, please!


I've suggested it, but.......not my fish or tank.
I have electro shock experience for fish, and use the same model he'll be using. Traps etc also, but.....
Took me 3 years to catch some SAE's in a 350 Gal, even with 2" or water, the plant and scape structure make it impossible, even if they are flapping.
They will die out of water before they come out, not so sure that is any more humane.

So.....gas is out as an option.


----------



## plantbrain

houseofcards said:


> Congrats on that setup. I think it clearly shows how planted freshwater can blow away a large scale reef project.


Ah..........but..........both are nice.


----------



## Gembirdie

Wow - that picture of the owner in the tank and the installation with the lights and everything that is needed to make this work is impressive in itself. This is one crazy setup.

I'm looking forward to see more pictures... Especially of the Altums.


----------



## scapegoat

beautiful tank. the scale is lost on me however... could we get a picture of a person standing in front of the tank?


----------



## Betta Maniac

If I ever win the lottery . . . this has just been added to the list of madness that will ensue.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

plantbrain said:


> They will die out of water before they come out, not so sure that is any more humane.


Yes, I lost a couple of tetras this way. I don't know if FW fish are dumber than SW fish, but they would rather be dried out than caught. I had a cardinal tetra swim itself into a clump of Anubias in a piece of wood and it wasn't until 10 minutes after I took the wood out after the water was drained that the tetra fell out.


----------



## rwong2k

wow amazing aquarium!


----------



## plantbrain

scapegoat said:


> beautiful tank. the scale is lost on me however... could we get a picture of a person standing in front of the tank?


----------



## SearunSimpson

*barffff* So sick!

With the dude standing next to it, and the photo of him swimming/planting, it really does show how big it is! I would love to have that tank!

I'll trade your services for some good strong Canadian Beer!


----------



## SearunSimpson

Tom: How was that wood sourced? Bought, or found, and what kind? I would love to get some big pieces for my 90gl, but can't see me spending the money on pieces of wood, haha, so if I can find some that are safe, that would be cool.
Thanks!


----------



## F22

epic... as always


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

The swimming picture is super funny. 

10 umols?!? And 50 max?! Wow.

You mentioned that 20 is the threshold for most species, does this hold true for the stem plants that most would consider requiring "high" light? Ie the redder species?

If so, That's crazy. Low lighting should be the next big trend and this tank more than proves it.


----------



## jhunt

Tom,

I am interested in the nutrient monitoring probes that you might be/will be using for this tank. It sounds similar to some of the technology that we're starting to use in the wastewater industry.


----------



## plantbrain

SearunSimpson said:


> *barffff* So sick!
> 
> With the dude standing next to it, and the photo of him swimming/planting, it really does show how big it is! I would love to have that tank!
> 
> I'll trade your services for some good strong Canadian Beer!


I do not drink booze, never have.


----------



## plantbrain

SearunSimpson said:


> Tom: How was that wood sourced? Bought, or found, and what kind? I would love to get some big pieces for my 90gl, but can't see me spending the money on pieces of wood, haha, so if I can find some that are safe, that would be cool.
> Thanks!


Western cedar is local to your region, time to go a hunting for the wood.
See what's out there, harder, denser and well soaked are good rules, mouths of rivers are where I find a lot. See my 180 Gal, that's pull out of a river similar to those in BC.

If you are as cheap as hillbilly, you need to go out and find things like one.:thumbsup: It's okie work to be sure, but not bad driving around in a pretty place exploring either.


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> The swimming picture is super funny.
> 
> 10 umols?!? And 50 max?! Wow.
> 
> You mentioned that 20 is the threshold for most species, does this hold true for the stem plants that most would consider requiring "high" light? Ie the redder species?
> 
> If so, That's crazy. Low lighting should be the next big trend and this tank more than proves it.


"Right" (super sarcasm mode)...........low light being trendy?


The tank does have a midday blast with the MH's for 3 hours, where the light triples, but that's still not much, a little bit over the compensation point, this way you do not have trim much and most of that is done in the upper 2ft of the tank where you can get at it.

.


----------



## plantbrain

jhunt said:


> Tom,
> 
> I am interested in the nutrient monitoring probes that you might be/will be using for this tank. It sounds similar to some of the technology that we're starting to use in the wastewater industry.


And about as complex.
We really do not monitor nutrients with probes continuously. 
We use a colorimeter here there, but there's no need, since we can flush the tank and re set dosing X amount of weight of fert to X volume of water, or a partial reference solution(EI methods).

DO is well monitored for many processes and pH for wastewater, NH4, NO3 etc.

These nutrient probe systems tend to take grab samples and then add chemicals to remove interference ions(there are many) for each specific parameter, this is impractical for aquatics and why NO3/NH4 and many others are not common.

The chemical in colorimeter reagents do this, so why bother with a probe to begin with? One thing more to mess with.


----------



## jhunt

> And about as complex.
> We really do not monitor nutrients with probes continuously.
> We use a colorimeter here there, but there's no need, since we can flush the tank and re set dosing X amount of weight of fert to X volume of water, or a partial reference solution(EI methods).
> 
> DO is well monitored for many processes and pH for wastewater, NH4, NO3 etc.
> 
> These nutrient probe systems tend to take grab samples and then add chemicals to remove interference ions(there are many) for each specific parameter, this is impractical for aquatics and why NO3/NH4 and many others are not common.
> 
> The chemical in colorimeter reagents do this, so why bother with a probe to begin with? One thing more to mess with.


The possibilities are interesting to me though. In wastewater for instance, we are using NH3/NH4 probes placed where the raw water comes in to our bioreactors to modulate the VFD's on our blowers. When the influent strength increases, the blowers begin to put out more air to keep a specific DO set point with no see-sawing in the trend line. We used to use just DO probes to acomplish this and we were always behind in the game because the DO would not drop until the stronger waste had gotten into the system. With these probes we can now try to get in front of the problem which prevents our equipment from ramping up and down so hard.

I would imagine that in a planted aquarium, if you had these in-situ probes connected to a logic controller and then to chemical metering pumps, you could design a system to keep a constant level of PO4, NO3, etc. in the system that would keep up with the up take of the plants in the system. Sounds expensive, but cool.


----------



## magicmagni

Tom,

Been on hiatus for a while to come back on here and stumble on this. Just beautiful. You must be proud of your accomplishment. I would be.

BTW back when I was keeping my Discus planted tank I was running around 82F on the temp. It was OK, but now that I don't have the Discus any longer I lowered my temps back down to 76. Maybe coincidental, but seems that the plants are pearling better now and if I had a DO meter I would suspect the DO levels increased.

So just curious what temps you are running here and what if any problems you've incurred with plants/ fish related to temperature if any.

Jeff


----------



## The_Finglonger

AMAZING TANK!! Would love to see a video of it...


----------



## Geniusdudekiran

Wow. Here's another one: Who here has the SMALLEST tank? Planted super-pico?


----------



## karatekid14

O.O 

And I thought my 30 gal high tech was expensive/big


----------



## plantbrain

Geniusdudekiran said:


> Wow. Here's another one: Who here has the SMALLEST tank? Planted super-pico?


I've seen shot glasses, but if you search for Octopus's aquarscapes, he's a guy in Serbia I believe, maybe Croatia and they are going to hate me for not recalling which, he does some of the neatest nano scapes I've seen.


----------



## plantbrain

jhunt said:


> The possibilities are interesting to me though. In wastewater for instance, we are using NH3/NH4 probes placed where the raw water comes in to our bioreactors to modulate the VFD's on our blowers. When the influent strength increases, the blowers begin to put out more air to keep a specific DO set point with no see-sawing in the trend line. We used to use just DO probes to acomplish this and we were always behind in the game because the DO would not drop until the stronger waste had gotten into the system. With these probes we can now try to get in front of the problem which prevents our equipment from ramping up and down so hard.


I like the Hach LDO probes and sampling prefiltered water might help and give you enough time to react the system to accommodate the influx I would think.

This would require adding a few more sampling stations along the process flow, the further up you can get where they all converge... the better.

Still, might cost a few thousand, but..........you'd get far more control and predictive power. Some tweaking to respond times would be required, but it should work better, COD/BOD would be great, but those test take way too long for Wastewater typically.

You guys have to deal with big slug pulse flows of water, it's a PITA.
Mass flow gas controllers might help also fine tune the O2 additions.
Do you use them already?

I use them on this tank and a 450 gal for CO2, but they can work with most gases. We use an Alicat brand.



> I would imagine that in a planted aquarium, if you had these in-situ probes connected to a logic controller and then to chemical metering pumps, you could design a system to keep a constant level of PO4, NO3, etc. in the system that would keep up with the up take of the plants in the system. Sounds expensive, but cool.


No need really, the client prefers to simply dose when feeds the fish.
With large water changes, feeding and dosing regularly, the tank sort of takes care of itself.

Scaping takes a lot of work/labor, but once set, it stays fairly even till you need to trim about once every 2-4 months.


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## plantbrain

magicmagni said:


> Tom,
> 
> Been on hiatus for a while to come back on here and stumble on this. Just beautiful. You must be proud of your accomplishment. I would be.
> 
> BTW back when I was keeping my Discus planted tank I was running around 82F on the temp. It was OK, but now that I don't have the Discus any longer I lowered my temps back down to 76. Maybe coincidental, but seems that the plants are pearling better now and if I had a DO meter I would suspect the DO levels increased.
> 
> So just curious what temps you are running here and what if any problems you've incurred with plants/ fish related to temperature if any.
> 
> Jeff


83-84, I keep a few tanks at this range


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## TwoStrokeKing

I dont see any of the pictures?! where are they! i have to see this thing!:icon_twis


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## plantbrain

I see plenty, check your browser etc.




























Regards,
Tom Barr


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## sewingalot

Wow, Tom. That is simply amazing. I love how you set up the wood on the right side of the tank.


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## Inkling

Hmmmm...I wonder if my husband would let me put a 1600 gallon tank in our living room? Now that I think of it, I don't think a 1600 gallon tank would FIT in my living room! 

Nice work Tom. Those are some lucky discus!


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## chad320

I wish I had a toy this big


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## MoeBetta

I *really *wish the owner of this tank was into ustream.


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## Chaos_Being

Amazing tank. Those new discus are simply stunning, much better than the day-glo ones that were in there before.


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## nonconductive

this is probably the coolest thing i have ever seen.


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## Pri

Mind blowing!!! Any video of this marvel?


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## zenche

this is supercalifragilisticexpialidocious. pretty much the only word to describe this.

also, what are the dimensions in ft/inches of this monster?


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## plantbrain

Pri said:


> Mind blowing!!! Any video of this marvel?


There's a web cam that links to the client's office desk top at work, fish behave different when no one is in the room.


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## shrimpNewbie

that is ridiculous, and just simply beautiful


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## orchidman

OMG! thats a fishtank!


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## plantbrain

Big as hell, but a PITA to trim and prune, it's a job.


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## singyeah

Wow, that's amazing


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## doncityz

King of tanks.

But would you know if a fish died somewhere in that forest?


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## DrewWoodside

plantbrain said:


> Here's a pic of the hardscape.
> Took 22 hours of straight planting to complete, the hardscape took about 8-9 hours.
> 
> Oh the fish list is not anything anyone's ever done.
> 36 Champ 10" largest discus I've ever seen
> 64 altums, yep 64........
> 60 Rose lines
> 60 spotted giant hatchets, never seen these before.
> Rare plecos etc
> Hundreds of nice apistos
> 1000 Cardinals
> 100 N espei
> 
> I think there's 8 sq ft of HC, oh that was fun planting that perched inside the tank on a warm day
> 
> Tenji does the main enginneering, life support, I do everything inside the tank and CO2 etc.
> 
> Andy(MBA aquarist), Richard, ugly old me, Mark(Monterey Bay Aquarium curator). We all worked long and hard on this.
> The plants pearled 2 hours after lights on.
> 
> I'm replanting some things in 2 weeks, hard to find enough plants to stuff the tank.
> 
> 1000gpd RO system with a 700 Gallon reservior.
> 7 Fluidized bed filter, 6 ft Biotower, dual reduncy built in throughout the system.
> 
> CO2, muhaha........
> Two 24" CO2 reactors, two 3/4" mazzi venturis, and two ADA beetle 50's in the tank's corners.
> 
> Pure O2 injection and controller.
> Maintained at no less than 8-9ppm.
> 
> Nothing like it.
> 
> I am looking into adding an ISE NO3, PO4 and NH4 probes for real time measures that are extremely accurate.
> 
> The tank is a fish and plant tank, not just a plant tank.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Holy Christ, just got the link to this thread from another thread and... I was honestly just thinking no one ever does a legitimate giant tank dedicated to Freshwater and planted.. And to have your fauna selection? First thing I saw was Appistos and it only got better from there. 

Ppl say dream tank a lot, but honest to god, this sounds like my dream tank.. Okay I'm done gushing. Thanks!


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## DrewWoodside

DrewWoodside said:


> Holy Christ, just got the link to this thread from another thread and... I was honestly just thinking no one ever does a legitimate giant tank dedicated to Freshwater and planted.. And to have your fauna selection? First thing I saw was Appistos and it only got better from there.
> 
> Ppl say dream tank a lot, but honest to god, this sounds like my dream tank.. Okay I'm done gushing. Thanks!


Just finished reading through this thread(what a joy.) Epic tank. Did you decide against Appistos in the tank? The discus are incredible, but it would be cool to see a couple other species(especially the Appistos!)


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## karatekid14

It looks so much better with the discus being the same color now.


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## Algae Beater

karatekid14 said:


> It looks so much better with the discus being the same color now.


agreed

the tank is stunning regardless, but the homogeneous collection of discus is much errr smoother.


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## Mxx

Hey, not bad. Maybe I should do one of those...

Can you tell us what is with all the filtration though? Seven massive fluidized bed filters? I'm not altogether sure of the purpose behind that much bio-filtration, as considering the amount of nitrates you're having to add for the plants it potentially seemed a bit redundant? I'm guessing it's somewhat a safeguard, that while the plants would be happy to absorb the ammonia themselves, for the sake of the fish you'd rather have as minimal amounts of ammonia and nitrites in the water as possible and therefore prefer for those to be converted to nitrates asap. 

I would certainly appreciate knowing though, as I'm trying to figure out how much bio-filtration to ideally incorporate for my next planned big tank.


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## plantbrain

The FBF is a 6ftx 1 dia tower.
The sump is a 400 Gal tub.

I would have designed it very differently.

A sealable wet/dry is optimal I think.

That is impossible with this design. I'm not a fan or the FBF's.


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## BoxxerBoyDrew

What A FREAKIN' AWESOME TANK!!!

Everything about it is JUST AWESOME! The Aqua Scape is VERY BEAUTIFUL!!! Also the waste water usage is a awesome thing too! I will have to read the whole thread when I am at the Farm the next couple of days, but what I read so far is almost unbelievable!

Tom,

You truly are a PLANTED TANK GURU!!!

PLEASE keep us updated with this tank, as it is a INSPIRATION to us all!!!

Take Care,
Drew


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## 150EH

sewingalot said:


> Wow, Tom. That is simply amazing. I love how you set up the wood on the right side of the tank.


I'll have to say the same thing, it really looks good and so much different all grown in, I haven't been back here to look in a while and the difference is huge, it really looks good and the scale of the fish and the scape make the tank look normal in size instead of you taking a look and just think wow that's a big tank, now it's more like wow that's a beautiful tank and the size is secondary.

Sick dude!!! I mean knarly to the max, or nice job Tom.


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## plantbrain

The client has put a lot of time, money and effort into it.
So it's not just one person involved there.


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## 150EH

I went back a little more and with someone in the tank you see the size of the fish, huge. Without any reference for scale the fish and the tank seem much small.

Is this the only thread about this tank, I know I had look and commented on it not too long ago (April, May) and don't recall the guy in the tank.


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## nazspeed

I need a mega million ticket right about now.... stunning!!!!


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## plantbrain

150EH said:


> I went back a little more and with someone in the tank you see the size of the fish, huge. Without any reference for scale the fish and the tank seem much small.
> 
> Is this the only thread about this tank, I know I had look and commented on it not too long ago (April, May) and don't recall the guy in the tank.


That was me in the tank.


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## vincenz

WOW. Water changes must take a week :tongue:


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## plantbrain

vincenz said:


> WOW. Water changes must take a week :tongue:


About 1-1.5 hours for 60-70%


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## kwheeler91

Updates?


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## williemcd

Is there a central repository for all of the pics featuring this tank?.. While a member, I'm not seeing ANY pictures.. Bill in Va.


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## sketch804

MY GOD that has to be the best tank I have ever seen in my entire life! It's painfully obvious that you know exactly what you are doing, time and time again! your work just amazes me!


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## liquid_krystale

williemcd said:


> Is there a central repository for all of the pics featuring this tank?.. While a member, I'm not seeing ANY pictures.. Bill in Va.


Strangely enough I'm not either. Would love to see these pics though, if anyone has a way of sending a link to me.


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## zainey_04

I can see some of the pictures, but I agree most of them are missing.


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## plantbrain

They are still active on my image cache..........and they should still be viewable here.


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## doncityz

If I have a tank this big, I'd put about 500 cardinal tetras in it, 500 rummynose tetras, and 50 Flying foxes.


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## plantbrain

doncityz said:


> If I have a tank this big, I'd put about 500 cardinal tetras in it, 500 rummynose tetras, and 50 Flying foxes.


the client put 1000 cards in there, but they got eaten and picked off, he did not fatten them up prior, so tiny little weak cards are Discus food. Mine are fat, healthy and fast, they would not get eaten. You could not see then and the full tank because they are too small to see unless the image size and screen was massive.


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## Obakemono

doncityz said:


> If I have a tank this big, I'd put about 500 cardinal tetras in it, 500 rummynose tetras, and 50 Flying foxes.


Or about 1200 Ember Tetras!


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## travis.808

WOW!! 

The pictures of the hardscape only no longer exist. If its not too much of a pain could you repost them?

WOW!!


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## plantbrain

Amano's large tank has little viewable hardscape, it's just structure for the plants. 
Note, we added a lot of pinwheel type wood on the back wall for more structure.


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## doncityz

plantbrain said:


> the client put 1000 cards in there, but they got eaten and picked off, he did not fatten them up prior, so tiny little weak cards are Discus food. Mine are fat, healthy and fast, they would not get eaten. You could not see then and the full tank because they are too small to see unless the image size and screen was massive.


OMG! poor cardinals...!
Ok I take that back. I'd say I'd put about 5000 cardinals in there. Plus 5000 rummynose. and 100 flying foxes. No other fish. that would be heaven for me. :hihi:


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## Mxx

plantbrain said:


> Amano's large tank has little viewable hardscape, it's just structure for the plants.
> Note, we added a lot of pinwheel type wood on the back wall for more structure.
> ]


Pinwheel type wood? I'm not exactly sure what that is, but would like to hear more if anyone could explain it. 

Creating a vertically stacked aquascape like that I presume is certainly a challenge, and I was wondering before about how one would go about achieving that. It's certainly an impressive effect!

What I had in mind was using one of the plastic systems that is used for 'vertical gardens', which can either be bought and presumably sawn to size to fit in a tank, or could be DIY and made from plastic gutter sections (so long as you could ensure gutters are inert, which I haven't yet looked into). 

I'd still want to see wood instead of these planting troughs however, but it should be a simple enough matter at that point to tack the wood onto the face of each trough. 

Here are a few examples of such a thing - 
http://www.gardenbeet.com/wall-planters/176-easiwall-green-wall.html
http://www.gardenbeet.com/wall-planters/186-mini-garden.html
http://www.ecostreet.com/blog/eco-f...y-recycle-old-gutters-into-a-vertical-garden/


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## plantbrain

Pin wheel describes the shape of the wood's root/branch system, rough, flat and full of branches/roots. 3ft diameter etc and provides a scaffold for the plants to be attached to.

Or you can simply pile the wood up like this:


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## travis.808

plantbrain said:


> Amano's large tank has little viewable hardscape, it's just structure for the plants.
> Note, we added a lot of pinwheel type wood on the back wall for more structure.


Thanks for the repost! This tank is really amazing!


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## xenxes

doncityz said:


> OMG! poor cardinals...!
> Ok I take that back. I'd say I'd put about 5000 cardinals in there. Plus 5000 rummynose. and 100 flying foxes. No other fish. that would be heaven for me. :hihi:


+1. I'd house several huge schools of microfish, and probably just a handful or pair of centerpiece fish. Looks more natural and gives a better sense of scale


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## kwheeler91

plantbrain said:


> Pin wheel describes the shape of the wood's root/branch system, rough, flat and full of branches/roots. 3ft diameter etc and provides a scaffold for the plants to be attached to.
> 
> Or you can simply pile the wood up like this:


Lol


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## nornicle

Hi Tom,

Question for you, I couldn't succeed at keeping discus in a 270 gallon planted due to their need for copious amounts of food to stay nice and thick, how are these discus being fed? I imagine the regime would be :icon_redf


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## plantbrain

xenxes said:


> +1. I'd house several huge schools of microfish, and probably just a handful or pair of centerpiece fish. Looks more natural and gives a better sense of scale


You'd never seen them in any of the pictures on the web.

In person it'd be cool........


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## plantbrain

nornicle said:


> Hi Tom,
> 
> Question for you, I couldn't succeed at keeping discus in a 270 gallon planted due to their need for copious amounts of food to stay nice and thick, how are these discus being fed? I imagine the regime would be :icon_redf


Client is careful.

We made several feeding dishes and I suggested the white sand front years ago, he finally got around to doing it. Feed well but frequently, that's one method. Keep the tank clean is the other.

So 2x a week water changes, say 75%.

These fish where raised in Bare bottom tanks then added after they where large well eating adults.


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## nonconductive

still love this tank tom.


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## plantbrain

I'd like to go down and see it myself sometime in the next few months.:tongue:


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## Daximus

plantbrain said:


> I'd like to go down and see it myself sometime in the next few months.:tongue:


Take a picture of it, lol! It's killing me to read this thread and not be able to see it. :biggrin:


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## nonconductive

Daximus said:


> Take a picture of it, lol! It's killing me to read this thread and not be able to see it. :biggrin:


 
yea no doubt


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## ikuzo

update this Tom
pictures
or video is even better if it's allowed


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## Geniusdudekiran

Tom, do you still look after this tank? Incredible work.


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## plantbrain

Owner does most of the work himself and has it down pretty good.

If he needs changes, he'll contact me, but that's been a couple of years now, so things are going good or a New Guinea Headhunter got him(I'm serious). Would not be the 1st close call he's had.


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## PinkRasbora

Like good lordie. That is crazy!!! Wonder if those discus ever paired off. I bet they are huge by now.


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## plantbrain

PinkRasbora said:


> Like good lordie. That is crazy!!! Wonder if those discus ever paired off. I bet they are huge by now.


They bred dozens of times as did the angels and other species.


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## Geniusdudekiran

plantbrain said:


> Owner does most of the work himself and has it down pretty good.
> 
> If he needs changes, he'll contact me, but that's been a couple of years now, so things are going good or a New Guinea Headhunter got him(I'm serious). Would not be the 1st close call he's had.


Lol, this guy seems interesting! 

Does he ever send you photos of the tank?


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## Mxx

This thread still live? The more I've searched through different examples, the more this is the look I wish to next work from for inspiration, and I finally have the room for it finished, so time to start filling that empty reserved corner with a nice tank. 

How clean does the white forefront sand stay by the way in a tank like this, anyone? I was thinking of adding a powerhead or two on a timer which are angled towards the front of the tank and which would kick on for say 20 minutes twice a day and hopefully blow any detritus into the back? Would/could this work to keep it looking relatively pristine on a day-to-day basis? 

What are the foreground plants peaking over the driftwood by the way, is that Staurogyne repens?


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## plantbrain

Sand is siphoned out and replaced about once a month or so, the top layer anyway. 

Those are small Pavifolius swords, not Repens.


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## Whiskey

I'm going to raise this thread from the dead!

This is one of my all time favorite tanks, I remember reading that it got something like 10 PAR for 8 hours per day, then a burst of 50 for 3 hours. Did they stick with that lighting setup? Was that enough for the plants on the bottom long term?

And the most important question of all,.. do you have any new (or unshown) pics?

The pics from this thread are part of a slideshow which is the background on my computer and I just drool every time it comes up. When I have the space to do a 180 or larger again I plan to do something low light with CO2 to keep the maintenance at bay.

Whiskey

Whiskey


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## Crystalview

my favorite pic is where Tom is in the tank doing set up or changes. Hadn't seen this in a while. Great perspective


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## AquaAurora

Sorry if this has already been asked and answered (didn't spot) but what are the tanks dimensions?
And holy [censor] that's a lot of plants!!! *grabby hands at the massive blobs-o-anubais*

edit: whoops didn't realize this was a necro-d thread


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## plantbrain

12x4x4 ft


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## doggo

Just read this thread - many thanks Tom for a fascinating and fantastic journey!


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## Mxx

Tom, can you arrange to have a video camera put in front of this tank for two hours and then sell me a DVD of that, please??


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## plantbrain

Tank is going to be taken down and the new thing will be a terrarium/paludarium. Anyone wanna buy a 1600 Gallon tank?


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## DGarone

Do you ever do videos of tank setups/aquascaping?

Some of my favorite planted tank things are tank setup videos from this British outfit called the Green Machine. I love the long videos they produce of setting up their fancy tanks.


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## Hyzer

plantbrain said:


> Tank is going to be taken down and the new thing will be a terrarium/paludarium. Anyone wanna buy a 1600 Gallon tank?


I'll take it. Shouldn't be much to ship to Chattanooga.


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## Mxx

That's unfortunate! So no chance of filming it beforehand? I tried to find a decent plantscape DVD that I could leave running on the TV, at least until I have my own replica of that tank built, but all of the ones on the market seem to be hideous examples... 

Any chance you might be willing to share why it's being taken down? Was maintenance too much? Was it not looking good and had algae issues or something?


----------

