# Non-scientific comparison of Soilmaster select and ADA Aqua Soil



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

This should be a very interesting comparison. Why did you use laterite with the SM? I used a light dusting of peat and some mulm under my SM.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

I used the laterite to give the SM a bit better comparison since the ADA stuff uses some sort of "other" layer (Power sand special). From what I've read, the iron content in laterite is pretty high, and, I have no idea what the iron content in the SM is. And, I had it laying around.
I probably had some peat around...might be a different test later on. 

I plan on running this for about 2 months or so and see where it goes.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Looking forward to the results of your test. More similar tests should be done, comparing say Flourite and Schultz, Kitty litter and Eco Complete, etc.

With regular water column fertilization, I believe that the type of substrate has little influence on plant growth. Gosh now I stepped on some big toes again. We shall see.

Looks good, that soilmaster!


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

What a cool test!
Thanks for doing this, and documenting it so well.
A very elegantly simple setup.
I agree with *wasser* - we should get a whole series of these comparisons running!
And, yes, that soilmaster does look good!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Joe, don't you think you skewed the test a bit by adding the laterite?

I mean, now it is not an issue of Soilmaster/ADA, it is Soilmaster/Laterite/ADA.

Mike


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Cant wait to see how this turns out. I am thinking of swaping my substrate for the soilmaster and this will help for sure.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> Joe, don't you think you skewed the test a bit by adding the laterite?
> I mean, now it is not an issue of Soilmaster/ADA, it is Soilmaster/Laterite/ADA.
> Mike


Not really...

The ADA Aqua Soil has Powersand "special" under it...
Powersand Description:
Power Sand Special provides more minerals and nutrients to the substrate, as it also contains Bacter 100 and Clear Super.

It isn't really scientific, so I would think there will be some mixing of nutrients amongs the substrates - and I couldn't situate the filter where I wanted it, so the water flow variable is there as well. I am mainly just curious to see if the root structures vary much...or, if there is some other explosive sort of growth.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Two problems with this test:

pH is changed by PS/ADA soil.
Nutrients leech out into the water column from ADA substrates.

You cannot compare the effect of the pH since the SM has no effect, so you have not isolated that issue here.

Same situation with the water column and nutrients.

Power sand adds mainly NO3.
Soil and Powersand both have about the same NH4.
NO3 easily leeches out into the water column, may as well add it via KNO3.
Bound organic N always goes to NH4 first, not NO3.

Several folks have done jar test on the ADA soil/PS.
See what leeches out and test it.

You should also try and fast growing rooty weed.
The Crypt may take awhile.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> You should also try and fast growing rooty weed.
> The Crypt may take awhile.


Thanks for that...
Any suggestions on the above?


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## bobbo (Feb 9, 2004)

It will be interesting to see how this tank progresses. Both of those substrates look about the same color as eco. Is that true or does the photo color lie?

Also, not to divert the focus of this thread, but if anyone knows where to get the soilmaster in the Chicagoland area, please pm me. Thanks.

:fish:


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

bobbo said:


> It will be interesting to see how this tank progresses. Both of those substrates look about the same color as eco. Is that true or does the photo color lie?
> 
> Also, not to divert the focus of this thread, but if anyone knows where to get the soilmaster in the Chicagoland area, please pm me. Thanks.
> 
> :fish:


I don't have Eco to put next to it, but from what I've seen of it - it is close in color. The shape is more like a finer flourite, from what I've seen of eco, it is more rounded.

As for where to get it:
Store #605
140 E Hill St
Villa Park, IL 60181-1805
Michael Prescott
6309413270

Store #633
1000 N Frontage Rd
Darien, IL 60561-6448
Robert Osier
6304934560

There are some others near Chicago...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jhoetzl said:


> Thanks for that...
> Any suggestions on the above?


Something you can sell, but then there is little back ground research done on it.

Most fast growing stem plants work.

For research: Myrio's, Egeria, pondweeds, Vals, hornwort, etc

Myrio matogrossense green or red are nice. 

Given the contents in ADa soil, there are nuterients there, but not in SM.
If you want to be fair to the materials without the nutrients impact, you'd need to have nutrients in both, then see how it goes. 

If you want to test just the products, this likely will give you enough to see a difference , but over what time frame?

Initially you will have more growth from the ADa soil, it has nutrients, the other does not.

So I'm not sure if that prediction is even worthwhile exploring.
If you chose to do a test ask a specific question.

We can predict with high probablility that the ADA soil will be better in terms of growth rates.

So you may want to focus the test on something else that you do not have a good clue about the outcome. 

Any enriched product, even garden soil and sand cap, will have a higher growth rate than SM alone............

Be careful about what and how you interpt the results and ask why might this occurr. 

If the nutrients are non limiting in the water column, then you have a better method to test.

In a new tank, the nutrients will be fairly equal there. 
Then the nutrients are less an issue for the plant growth rates and you casn see what really might effect the growth rate etc.

You still have the p/H issue etc and some things you cannot answer without a different test, but you can get a good idea with the same type of dosing routine which is more suitable for your routine.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Thanks for that Tom! 
Hmmm I've seen "foxtail", it was green but wasn't quite sure which Myriophyllum it was...

And I've seen other posts of yours about the infamous "White Pumice balls".... ARRRGGHHHHH!!!! If I had only know it was soooo bad!

For those that don't know...I will snag a picture soon, but basically, power sand is a somewhat large grain whitish pumice looking ball...shockingly similar to Eheim Substrat Pro. Hmmm....
At any rate, if you move a plant, you wind up with these ugly "balls" on the top of your otherwise nice substrate.

If you were setting up a tank of ADA Amazonia (Normal or Powder) - what would you put under it? Just some peat? Nothing?

Thanks!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm surprise so many folks suggest Powersand. 

Probably just because it the system Amano suggest, rather than thinking it through or testing it. That's not everyone's cup of tea.
I wonder if they(those that have used it over time) just are not being honest about it or something, you wait and uproot some plants and then tell me what you think about it. Maybe they just never uprooted. 

I mean, really......that's not something you have "to test" to see if it is simply very unattractive and ugly. It just is.

I add mulm/filter sponge squeezings, then like I have for many years, a light dusting of peat, that is what the powersand has on it also.

add Soil.

Then you are done, fill tank slowly etc.
No rinsing, it'll also never scratch glass when you clean. 
That alone is a huge plus for using a softer substrate. 

It's cheaper, easier and gives the same results.
Both the sand and soil have nitrogen in them.
PS has a lot of NO3, but about the same things as the Soil otherwise.
We can add NO3 all day long.

I do standard EI and can grow any plant to a very high level.


Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> I'm surprise so many folks suggest Powersand.
> Probably just because it the system Amano suggest, rather than thinking it through or testing it. That's not everyone's cup of tea.
> I wonder if they(those that have used it over time) just are not being honest about it or something, you wait and uproot some plants and then tell me what you think about it. Maybe they just never uprooted.


Yeah - I thought, hey, I am doing a new small tank, a 6.6, why not try the "amano system". Regretting it already...
Your first up-root and bam...

Part of it was that I was never thinking there would be something wrong with the stuff, and I was never really looking to find wrong with it, but that stuff should be off the market. It just makes a planted tank, nasty. The amazonian stuff is very nice indeed, but skip the powersand. 

I'd like to know if anyone that acutally uses this doesn't have this problem, and if so, how do they move/change a plant.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, several folks I know complained about it.
Others seem not to say much.

the soil is nioce and is what is really heklping the tank grow better than say EC, Flourite, FloraBase etc, I do not think the powersand is useful if you dose macro's, you have to dose something no matter what, what's the difference if you have to dose 2-3 x aweek KNO3, you already have to dose traces etc.

So in the end for new person, it's not that much difference.
Very few new folks will plunk down the $ for that anyway.

You can spend a few minutes pushing the pumice down, but at that point, you may as well vacuum the pumice out, the nutrients are now gone, so is the peat and you are left with ugly pumice on dark soil.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jerseyjay (Jul 23, 2002)

Joe, 

Re: your "test" 

If I were you I would probably setup 2 x 2.5G or 2 x 5G tanks with 1 / same light above both tanks. Run same fertilization schedule and see the difference. Mixing both in the same tank, having both affect the water, will really "skew" the outcome. 

I'm very close to setup a tank with ADA substrate. Hopefully within a month or so. I have never heard about that problem. Talked to a lot of people about it who wouldn't say crap just to say it. Every feedback was very positive and nobody ever mentioned any "uprooting" problems. We usually have tons of plants in our tanks anyway. How can you see "white balls" all over the place if your tank is planted ? My foreground is somehow open but everything else is covered with plants.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Yes, I agree on the 2x2.5's - probably next run. Just want to see if I can actually make it through on the one tank for now to see if I can personally stick with it. 

At any rate, the latest update is on the site...have a look.

And I will get some picks of the "up-rooting" problem, but I didn't want to show it in this tank. My other tank has all the ADA only stuff...will shoot some of that soon.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I have Eco and Soil master in 2 different tanks, I will get a pic of the two up here soon.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

*Some shots of the up-rooting problem when using ADA power sand*

OK, finally snagged a shot or two...If you want, have a look here or here

Notice those whitish colored stones...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jay Luto said:


> Every feedback was very positive and nobody ever mentioned any "uprooting" problems. We usually have tons of plants in our tanks anyway. How can you see "white balls" all over the place if your tank is planted ? My foreground is somehow open but everything else is covered with plants.


Well, you'll find out later for yourself.
I guess if you seldom prune or uproot anything. Some folks top, some use moss etc and other non rooted plants. Some use hairgrass etc that does not need to be uprooted. 
Then you are okay.

The feeback I give is very piositive on the AS, but not on the PS, but then again...........I actually have tanks without Ps and with AS solo.
Few people in the USA seem to do this but many in Asia do. Quite a few folks use AS in Singapore without the PS and have for some time.

Dupla feedback was glowing also and attributed it to the heating cables back then also.

Without seeing if they did anything by trying them with out any power, say over the summer, we found they had no effect, or so small it made no difference. So without ever trying the alternative, no PS, how would they/anyone know if it's critical or needed or even significant or not? 

They don't unless they have tried it. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

*Weekly Update...*

OK, not much going on in there. The mollies are doing well...plants...well...have a look


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

I for one have a tank that has the powersand all over the top of the ADA Soil.
I regularly uproot plants that have a big root mass and the powersand comes up with the roots. I gave up on trying to push the powersand back down.
Here is a pic of what it looks like in a corner of the tank. One of these days I'll remove those rocks.

Regards,
Alex


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think the best you could do with this experiment is to show that a cheap, non aquarium substrate like Soilmaster can grow plants about as well as a non-cheap aquarium substrate. And, at this point I think you have done that. I expected that to be the result too, since my Soilmaster seems to grow plants about the same as the other substrates I have tried. Is it really important to any of us to have the substrate that is the best plant grower of all, but by only 10%?


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Update posted at the usually spot...


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

As someone who has likely done more tanks with ADA substrate here in the US than most, I have always used Powersand and Aqua Soil together. I have never experienced the problem up pulling up the PS, because I do not uproot plants very often. When I do, it is usually when the tank is still very new, and the roots are not well grown into the PS which is deep below the AS (you only need a thin layer on the bottom, generally capped with 3+ inched of AS) and pulling up PS is something that simply has not occurred for me. 

My approach is more to layout the aquascape with the tank dry, really taking my time and executing placement of each plant or group. But to reach that point has taken many years of practice, though even in the early days, I was not one to uproot and move plants much. I just never really thought of it as an option, I guess. No matter what substrate I used, it always made such a mess. When I did uproot, it was very carefully, methodically. But that's just my style. 

If you uproot a lot and move things around frequently, and like to do so both quickly and well after plants have a strong foothold, Powersand is not a good choice for you. I think AS may have some nice attributes for most applications/layout styles, though. 

The ADA approach/aquascaping philosophy is different in that sense. The idea is to have a really strong direction in terms of the type of layout you want to achieve. That is a huge part of what AquaJournal focusues on-- learning how to do this-- how to imagine the finished aquascape/composition long before it's completion, and even before you first execute it. That's why Amano is constantly producing new layouts-- to provide almost boundless inspiration, ideas, and direction-- so it is easier to aquascape in the same manner. This appeals highly to the Japanese, and (oddly?) makes aquascaping more approachable to more people-- another big part of the the ADA philosophy, though it is seemingly a strategy that has been (to date, anyway) more geared toward/effective in the Japanese market. 

Just now is ADA starting to translate technical manuals and layout guides into English. I have had the fortune of heading up translation of many of these manuals, which will be available online soon. Hopefully there will be an element of demystification to some of the ADA philosophies, and more may glean the useful aspects of it for application to their own/existing methods. (Which very well may include the EXCLUSION of a product like Powersand that does not augment their individual style). Rightfully so. 

It's not that doing it some other way (than the ADA way) is wrong or bad (obviously), just that that is more the philosophy of ADA and subsequently, some of the product line reflects that. We don't have such an instructional philosophy here in the US, really, and that's just fine. We are clearly doing good work regardless--as evidenced by the many fine works found right here on this forum. 

To make a long story short, you do not need PS to be successful with AS, but I can say that is has purpose and function, though not at the level of qualifying as necessity.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

This test doesn't really work IMHO because both substrates are in the same tank. A much much more meaningful test would have been achieved if two separate tanks were used. Just my opinion.


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