# Dosing a low tech tank..



## Hyzer (Mar 9, 2010)

I started off dosing my low techs but found it to be unnecessary once I got a decent bioload in there. Now the only thing I do is feed the fish and top off the water.

As far as whether or not you should dose yours, it depends on how much light you have over your tank, how much/often you feed, your tap water parameters, etc.... Low tech means low light intensity to me, but not to everyone. If you dose too much you can start to have nutrient build-up, which can be harmful. I found an easy way to test how quickly my plants take in nutrients was to dose nitrate and use test strips. Even more simple: just pay attention to the health of your plants.

For me, the point of keeping low tech tanks is to have a great looking aquarium while keeping the maintenance low.


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## wastewater (Apr 5, 2010)

For me, the point of keeping low tech tanks is to have a great looking aquarium while keeping the maintenance low.[/QUOTE]

*Great definition for "low tech tank".*


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

I add CSM+B/Fe weekly, K2SO4 twice monthly.


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## IwantToScubaInMyTank (Mar 10, 2010)

I share your thoughts exactly.. About 1.2 wpg (t5ho) and practically no maintenance required which is the beauty of a low tech setup (IMO). I have just been reading and some people dose their low tech tanks quite often.. I'll test my nitrates once a week and if they are around 10 ppm I'll do nothing. My one big question is I'm seeing some yellowing (nothing major at all) on my crypto parva and some on the edges of my lutea.. Now I'm wondering if maybe this is due to lack of Fe? Also, some of my tropical hornwort is yellowing but most stays a very nice hue of green. I'm just not seeing that vibrant green on the crypts, is this just normal for a low tech tank? Thanks for your reply, it was what I was hoping to hear.. Doesn't happen all the time.


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## IwantToScubaInMyTank (Mar 10, 2010)

Ok so you add trace on a weekly basis? I have the flourish comprehensive supplement for trace and it has soluble Fe (0.32%) in it.. Do you think this is enough?


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## TequariumLerro (Aug 18, 2010)

Depends on the type of plants. I just use light and a good substrate. I got some advice from a bio-chemist about a substitute for co2 and special ferts. He advised adding more fish as a way to increase co2. I asked if nitrates would be a problem. He stated that plants love it! And if kept low, shouldn't affect fish. 

Any opinions about that?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

I have found no test kit for K2SO4 so it's the only thing I can't test for tank levels. Reading posts most all believe that even at extremely overdosed levels nothing is harmed so twice a month I dose for 15ppm based on the amount added to the tank. Also KH2PO4 seems to drop every week to 10 days so I’m adding to maintain 1-2ppm. 
Thats about it on my low techs HTH


Paying alot for water buying Seachem and I'm not sure you'll get by with just seachem ferts.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TequariumLerro said:


> Depends on the type of plants. I just use light and a good substrate. I got some advice from a bio-chemist about a substitute for co2 and special ferts. He advised adding more fish as a way to increase co2. I asked if nitrates would be a problem. He stated that plants love it! And if kept low, shouldn't affect fish.
> 
> Any opinions about that?


Talk to a biologist, not a chemist.

You cannot add a significant amount of CO2 via a fish/critter load.
Where does the CO2 come from in all critters and fish?

O2, which........is quite low, so to add/replace O2 to add enough CO2, you would lose the CO2 as fast as you add new O2.

This ends up being a zero net gain, and it's measurable. Also, if you add that much fish, the total O2 demand goes up, so there is less O2 for the fish at any one point in time, particularly during the night when there is no plant growth of CO2 uptake.........
You also have more NH4 production from more fish.

I'd talk to someone else who knows a bit more about the basics of biological respiration in aquatic systems.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I dose 1x a week:










KNO3
KH2PO4
Traces
GH booster

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I would agree with what others have said, especially in terms of how you define your low tech tank. My low tech tanks are also very low light, like Hyzer, when I first started in this hobby I dosed my tank but I started to notice that the plants didn't appear to suffer when I would forget. So now I put roots tabs in the substrate every other month or so for the heavy root feeders, and otherwise I just depend on the fish, shrimp and snails to do the fertilizing  Again, I have very low light and this is the method that works for ME roud:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you have very low light, there is no such thing as a heavy root feeder or a heavy water column feeder.......they are much more defined by light and/or CO2 as their limiting factor/s.

This same light/CO2 relationship can be used on high tech tanks and offers the same advantages and ease of management.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> If you have very low light, there is no such thing as a heavy root feeder or a heavy water column feeder.......they are much more defined by light and/or CO2 as their limiting factor/s.


Fair enough, though I will say I notice difference in plant growth when I haven't put new root tabs in the tank for a while (that's usually how I know it's time to put fresh ones in ) and I've noticed differences when I've lost or moved fish from a tank which alters my bioload and therefore my "fertilizer". Again though, I am aware that these are anecdotal things that do (and don't) work in MY tanks, which is why I try to be clear and make sure I say this is what works for ME. roud:


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## Herbicidal (Aug 3, 2010)

I consider my 155g Discus aquarium low tech. My lighting consists of 4 - 39 watt T5 HO bulbs in two, Catalina retro-fit's mounted to the inside of my canopy. My lighting is 29" above the substrate, currently on for 10 hours/day. I'm hoping to borrow a PAR meter from the Sacramento Aquatic Plants Society (I'm a new member) in the near future to confirm my light level. I have a 3" depth on my Eco-Complete substrate, no CO2. I'm about to start dosing with dry ferts using the PPS-Pro method found here: http://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/pps-pro
Overall, my plants look pretty good to me. I see new growth on most of them but want to help ensure they are getting all they need. My aquarium has been up and running with fish and plants since August of this year.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Karackle said:


> Fair enough, though I will say I notice difference in plant growth when I haven't put new root tabs in the tank for a while (that's usually how I know it's time to put fresh ones in ) and I've noticed differences when I've lost or moved fish from a tank which alters my bioload and therefore my "fertilizer". Again though, I am aware that these are anecdotal things that do (and don't) work in MY tanks, which is why I try to be clear and make sure I say this is what works for ME. roud:


I'm certainly a proponent of enriched sediments.
But.......I also am careful not to say more than we know........is it really due to the roots? Or do those fert leach into the water and are taken up there?
Which ferts are limiting as these tabs or sediments age?

We learn very little by simply adding something and hoping for correlation Thus cannot say much further.

I have many species that are grown in non CO2 tanks with tabs etc, just the water column, they get dosed maybe 1x a week or two sometimes.

Works great on all so called suspected root feeders.
Simply because a plant has large roots, does not imply that is where the nutrient uptake is preferred. The root might be for storage as in the case for Crypts/swords, Aponogetoms, or they might act as propagules for the dry or harsher times of the year.

Adding a fert tab or a mud ice cube is simply and easy and last a fair amount of time though, but we often forget about it as well, and the plants suffer till we around to adding another. Better to do a little of both and then both locations are easier to manage. This way you have better synergistic results and get away from the idea that plants prefer one vs the other. It's also easier to do.

Dose once every 1-2 weeks etc, and start off with a rich sediment, add a good amount of fish, algae eaters etc, prune once every 1-3 months etc.

Adding ferts might be simply reduce the limiting nutrient/s, the location in other words, matters little. I know of no plants that cannot grow just fine with 100% water column or 100% sediment sources(well, "rooted" plants anyways). Few hobbyist do 100% one vs the other anyhow.

Plants are opportunistic, they will go after nutrients where ever they can.
I'm not suggesting you or someone change their rotuine, only realize that it does not demonstrate preferences or the plant is a root/heavry root feeder.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Herbicidal said:


> I consider my 155g Discus aquarium low tech. My lighting consists of 4 - 39 watt T5 HO bulbs in two, Catalina retro-fit's mounted to the inside of my canopy. My lighting is 29" above the substrate, currently on for 10 hours/day. I'm hoping to borrow a PAR meter from the Sacramento Aquatic Plants Society (I'm a new member) in the near future to confirm my light level. I have a 3" depth on my Eco-Complete substrate, no CO2. I'm about to start dosing with dry ferts using the PPS-Pro method found here: http://sites.google.com/site/aquaticplantfertilizer/home/pps-pro
> Overall, my plants look pretty good to me. I see new growth on most of them but want to help ensure they are getting all they need. My aquarium has been up and running with fish and plants since August of this year.


PPS is not for non CO2 tanks, nor is EI.

I modified EI rates and then made some other changes to arrive at a non CO2 water column dosing method about 10 years ago or so.

This works very well over years without water changes:









I think you will much much much better off doing a CO2 enrichment method and sticking with the light you have. This way you can gain the advantage of water changes and increased light use efficiency. PPS is poor since it used old outdated ratios used from PMDD dosing methods almost to the letter. 
Increased nutrients and more PO4 is required for non limiting growth over time.

This is less important as you move to non CO2 methods, however, adding more of these (say N or P or Fe)does no harm over the long term on a huge number of user tanks.

Using a rich sediment such as ADA AS or earthworm castings or mineralized soil will also help make dosing much easier. If you own discus, you likely will do large frequent water changes anyway, so careful management of the nutrients will not matter no matter how much someone might crow about it.
I have that PAR meter and live in Sac, I also know the water, and have bred discus repeatedly in my own tanks and in client's tanks for over a decade. I know the limits and the amounts of wiggle room on this topic.

I think we are having the meeting Weds at Giovanni's, stop by and get the meter, we can help you out. Light seems about right offhand.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Herbicidal (Aug 3, 2010)

Hopefully this question fits into this thread, is there an optimum range for nitrates in a planted tank with a moderate fish load? I know nitrates are needed by the plants, but at higher levels can be toxic to the other inhabitants. Thanks!


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## kuni (May 7, 2010)

Tom, I think one of the issues here is that your numbers for the low tech dosing are fairly difficult to find. EI information is readily available in several locations, but it's not so easy to track down the general range for NPK/traces in a low tech tank, particularly if there are few water changes.

I know that when you provide "hard" numbers folks tend to fetishize those exact values even when the plants/fish will be fine with a much wider range, but it would still be nice to have more easily accessible numbers on that general range + recipes to produce it.


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## Herbicidal (Aug 3, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> I think we are having the meeting Weds at Giovanni's, stop by and get the meter, we can help you out. Light seems about right offhand.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks for the info Tom. I plan on attending and look forward to meeting you. Thanks to for the reminder that the meeting was moved to *WEDNESDAY* night! roud:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

kuni said:


> Tom, I think one of the issues here is that your numbers for the low tech dosing are fairly difficult to find. EI information is readily available in several locations, but it's not so easy to track down the general range for NPK/traces in a low tech tank, particularly if there are few water changes.
> 
> I know that when you provide "hard" numbers folks tend to fetishize those exact values even when the plants/fish will be fine with a much wider range, but it would still be nice to have more easily accessible numbers on that general range + recipes to produce it.


Ask, a ye shall receive:

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods

Been around for not quite A DECADE.
I got curious some years ago about algae and the water column and nutrients. I knew that soil non CO2 tanks had little issues, I had several.

But could we forgo the sediment entirely for plain sand and use the water column with a reduced rate? Answer is yes and it is extremely easy to manage, and the answer to my original question??? No algae issues.

This method is very popular in Singapore where I suggested it for a number of folks. Has done well here and in Europe, but it is less popular than the CO2 Doped methods like EI. This is due to the fact that CO2 use is more popular, particularly on forums etc than non CO2.

I have tried to counteract that trend.
So have Rhonda Wilson and Diana Walstad.
I'm a bit more on both sides of the CO2 fence myself, 3/5ths of my tanks are non CO2 at home.

There are also some other dosing methods such as spraying the leaves with diluted ferts for tanks like this and not adding anything to the water or sediment:









You do not see much of that type of dosing which has the least minimal ferts possible and still grow plants in the water. Adding to that, the O2/CO2 ratio is far better than any CO2 enriched method.
Since water changes are not required and you maximize the light usage with non limiting CO2 from the air, and the distance is greatly reduced between the light and plants, this is by far.........many times more efficienct and easier to care for and betetr for the livestock and energy consumption.

Folks wanna poo me or EI etc........but if they can provide a real option that does these things or better, I'm all ears.
Plus it looks nice in a high tech way and natural. Bred rare fish dozens of times in this tank. 


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

kuni said:


> Tom, I think one of the issues here is that your numbers for the low tech dosing are fairly difficult to find. EI information is readily available in several locations, but it's not so easy to track down the general range for NPK/traces in a low tech tank, particularly if there are few water changes.
> 
> I know that when you provide "hard" numbers folks tend to fetishize those exact values even when the plants/fish will be fine with a much wider range, but it would still be nice to have more easily accessible numbers on that general range + recipes to produce it.


In general, the rates of growth are about 10X less than in CO2 enriched systems for plants.

So, take a 3x a week ose, cut this to 1x.
Now, take that and cut the dose in 1/3 or thereabouts.

If you are in the 1/8th to less range, you are in good shape.
There is no need to dose daily(never was in CO2 tanks for that matter).

Once a week is decent, which old school dosing on fert bottles often suggested, think things are building up?

Do not dose for 2 weeks.

Let it run down etc.

Since growth rates are 10 X slow, the stress from limitation is also 10 X slow and we can respond by dosing and catch issues like that much easier. Basically we get lots more wiggle room and play with our dosing.

Fish loads, waste also provide a larger share of the dosing in the interim between dosing of inorganic ferts, basically the fish are the sustainable organic side, and we top off with a little inorganic ferts.

Pretty simple and the plants are quite good at mopping up the ferts.
Some plants like floaters or pennywort are excellent to let you know it's time to dose.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## kuni (May 7, 2010)

Thanks Tom!

I love the design on your rare fish tank - efficient, easy, and keeps fish happy(the most important thing). I'm hoping we can hear more about that style of tank at Wednesday's meeting covering ripariums.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

kuni said:


> Thanks Tom!
> 
> I love the design on your rare fish tank - efficient, easy, and keeps fish happy(the most important thing). I'm hoping we can hear more about that style of tank at Wednesday's meeting covering ripariums.


Just keep in mind how light slows or increases the rates of growth, then......what does that do to the rates of growth concerning the next in the process? the CO2?

Finally..........we get around to nutrients........so they are a ways down on the list, folks often place them high on the list and this is, simply put, backwards.

Once you know how each of these 3 main requires related to the rate of growth, then you can master any method and adapt it to suit.

You'll notice Amano does not do non CO2 submersed tanks, or few good on CO2 do CO2 enriched methods well, there are few folks that are and have done it.......but they understand the role of light CO2 much better than most and apply it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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