# Reality check please: Is my tank just to tall?



## John Wong (Dec 2, 2015)

Do you have pictures? 

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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

The Ray 2 might not provide enough light even with having a 4" to 6" substrate. The Ray 2 is also an older series of Finnex fixtures hence the lack of color. After the Ray2, Finnex introduced the planted+ with the red LEDs then the 24/7 model which has tri-color LEDs which resolved the wash out look from the Ray 2 series. 

Any tank taller than 20" usually becomes a challenge especially with only 13" in depth. You'll probably need two finnex fixtures which will still give you too much PAR at the very top of the tank while you'll get too low of a PAR at the bottom. 

The only solution I see is getting the expensive pendant fixtures or the high end LED fixture (Vortech Radion) which usually are positioned higher from the top of the tank. Don't know if one is enough to cover the span of the 36". Either way you are looking into purchasing or spending lights to cover a 40B tank.


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

John Wong said:


> Do you have pictures?
> 
> Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk


Photo when tank was originally set up:










The next one is the tank now after just planting all new plants a couple of days ago:












PortalMasteryRy said:


> The Ray 2 might not provide enough light even with having a 4" to 6" substrate. The Ray 2 is also an older series of Finnex fixtures hence the lack of color. After the Ray2, Finnex introduced the planted+ with the red LEDs then the 24/7 model which has tri-color LEDs which resolved the wash out look from the Ray 2 series.
> 
> Any tank taller than 20" usually becomes a challenge especially with only 13" in depth. You'll probably need two finnex fixtures which will still give you too much PAR at the very top of the tank while you'll get too low of a PAR at the bottom.
> 
> The only solution I see is getting the expensive pendant fixtures or the high end LED fixture (Vortech Radion) which usually are positioned higher from the top of the tank. Don't know if one is enough to cover the span of the 36". Either way you are looking into purchasing or spending lights to cover a 40B tank.


How I so wish I had known this before I bought my lights. I seriously wish anyone would have just first told me that having a tank over 20" would be a challenge. That alone would have made me consider a different size. As it turns out, the tank/stand are the cheapest part of this entire venture. Your info about the lights themselves is even more depressing. It sounds as if undertaking this tall tank is going to be both difficult and expensive. The other challenge I see is that any lights placed on the glass are going to put out way more energy to plants closer to the surface. That is assuming that the plants ever get tall enough for that to be an issue. 

With all of this in mind, I'm seriously going to consider buying a new tank. Preferably something with a canopy as well. The wife will shoot down any suggestion of hanging pendants from our 10' living room walls. Well listen, thank you at least for the candor. At least now I can make an informed decision. Something I should have probably investigated before deciding to start a planted tank instead of a fish only which was the original idea.


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## goodbytes (Aug 18, 2014)

Are you dosing gluteraldehyde? What kinds of ferts do you dose? Have you planted any "low light" plants that would grow really fast under high lighting? 

I love my 56 column and its a 24" tall tank. I put a full 3" of Safe-T-Sorb in the bottom though so from the lights to the substrate is only 22". I am running twin 30" Finnex 24/7s spaced evenly and double dosing glut and algae hasn't been much of a problem for the six months I've had it up. I run a magnetic algae cleaner over the glass once a week before I do my water change. Some algae grows towards the top but the majority grows in patches midway down where the beam angle hits the glass. Getting good plant growth is the key to preventing algae though so I EI dose to make sure my plants are growing as fast as possible. Also, as you can see, I keep Wisteria in this tank which grows prodigiously under these conditions. A high plant density interspersed with a number of fast growing plants is necessary to outcompete the algae. 

Hard to argue with results. If you look you can see some algae growing but nothing unmanageable.


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## John Wong (Dec 2, 2015)

Light intensity at height of 60CM reduce by 56% compare with light intensity at 45CM.

I don't think high light intensity is bad thing, as long as your tank is densely planted (obviously yours not) and any material such as carbon and ferts can keep up. 

Lower light intensity also not a bad thing as long as your plants can get enough energy to grow. And that depends on type on plants in your tank. Just watch closely how your plants react before spending money on new lighting.
My tank is a shallow tank with cheap Chinese white led. Everything grow just alright accept hc which requires more light. Since it is 25 CM deep only, 12.5cm from the bottom will be four times higher than light intensity at the bottom
May upgrade to better light next year for new tank. 

I'm using smartphone lux meter to measure light intensity which obviously not very accurate as it measure whole spectrum of light instead of certain spectrum in PAR meter. But I think it can serve as a reference. Mine around 4500 Lux at bottom. 

My tank after trim








Hope can help

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## ScottW (Sep 17, 2016)

I have a 60 gallon that is 24" tall. I'm using the Finnex Ray 2 and Finnex fugeray planted plus. I have them raised 6 inches above my tank and have very little algae and plants are growing like crazy. I dose ferts daily and use pressurized co2.
Here is a pic a few weeks ago before I rescaped it.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

I have a 25g tank that's 20 inches or so from light to substrate with a single planted+ on it with lower light plants (Anubias, crypts, swords, hygrometer, mermaid weed, etc and until I added some floating plants i actually needed a dinner on the light, otherwise I got horrendous BBA. I do dose some ferts, but no co2

Edit: I would reduce the amount of ferts your dosing, as your tank isn't that heavily planted, I would also get a bunch more plants, set your light period at 6-7 hours and see what happens for a couple weeks. It's more than likely you have an over abundance of nutrients and light for the plant mass you have. You can also try adding some floaters to compete for nutrients.

Deep tanks are doable, they just require a bit more thought in how they are planted so everything gets the right amount of light


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

My tank is 24" tall 92g. I get decent growth. I had an amazing dense carpet of marsilea minuta, now I've got staurogyne repens growing in strongly. What works best for a deep tank is a very strong focused light hanging high. If you put a very bright light right on top of the tank the upper level is extremely high light. Most stuff growing towards the top will get algea. If you can get a strong enough light to hang higher and still get the par at the bottom, it won't be as intense at the top. I've got a old flourescent in the center but what has got my light to the bottom is 2 Green Element EVO fixtures. They are 6-8" off the top of the tank. Substrate is about 2 inches in the front. These fixtures have 3w leds and lenses. I think the lenses are a necessity for a tank this deep. I can't remember what the spread of the lenses are but it was my reason for getting these lights. The lens focuses the light more and gives you brighter, more concentrated light at the bottom. The lenses and the leds in these fixtures are supposed to be individually replaceable. It's really tough to find any info on them though.

The good on these lights is that they're cheap and they seem to work well. They are available in a freshwater planted version. They can be modded and controlled fairly easily.
The bad, I don't really care for the color. It's the right color temp so probably a low CRI. One of these days I plan on changing out or adding some led's. They're just a little cold for my taste, YMMV.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

JohnsTank said:


> How I so wish I had known this before I bought my lights. I seriously wish anyone would have just first told me that having a tank over 20" would be a challenge. That alone would have made me consider a different size. As it turns out, the tank/stand are the cheapest part of this entire venture. Your info about the lights themselves is even more depressing. It sounds as if undertaking this tall tank is going to be both difficult and expensive. The other challenge I see is that any lights placed on the glass are going to put out way more energy to plants closer to the surface. That is assuming that the plants ever get tall enough for that to be an issue.
> 
> With all of this in mind, I'm seriously going to consider buying a new tank. Preferably something with a canopy as well. The wife will shoot down any suggestion of hanging pendants from our 10' living room walls. Well listen, thank you at least for the candor. At least now I can make an informed decision. Something I should have probably investigated before deciding to start a planted tank instead of a fish only which was the original idea.


I was in the same boat as you when I did an impulse buy in a 39" tall from Marineland during the black friday deal which was 20" tall with 12" depth. I gave the tank away since I realized I will end up buying 2 fixtures which is enough to light up a 40B.

Buy a 40B tank. Great tank size and you'll only need 2 fixtures and since you have 1 fixture already then it will be a step up.


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## Steve0 (Nov 7, 2013)

Here was my 60gal (48x12x24) dirt with a single 48" planted plus and co2. I was surprised anything grew once the jungle val took over. Hope this helped!


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I guess it depends on what you're trying to do. I have a 48" Finnex Planted+ 24/7 running in 24/7 mode in my low tech 60g tank that's 13x48x24. I expect that if I wanted to run on max for a given duration and add CO2, it could be high tech. But I prefer the natural look of the 24/7 mode and the plants I have do just fine.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

AbbeysDad said:


> I guess it depends on what you're trying to do.


This

Obviously lots of various setups are possible in taller tanks as many users have made clear. Notice how most are not high tech though... takes a lot of firepower to get high light down that far. And there is a massive variance in light levels near the top vs at the bottom. In a more shallow tank obviously this is not the case.

Basically going super-high tech is very difficult to begin with and if this is your goal you will certainly have a harder time with a tall tank.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

JohnsTank said:


> .... Most of the commercially available LED lights are providing PAR ratings in tanks with no water. There is a HUGE difference.


There is a small difference between the PAR readings in a tank of air and a tank full of water, but it is the water filled tank that has the higher PAR at the bottom. This is caused by the slight focusing effect of the air to water interface, and the reflection off the tank front and back. That's why most, if not all, light sellers measure the PAR in an empty tank.

The taller the tank, the better it is to have the light suspended above the top of the tank. This reduces the difference in PAR at the water surface and the substrate surface. This does limit the number of available lights that can be used, but it doesn't make it a serious problem.

My tank is a standard 65 gallon tank, 24 inches tall, 3 feet long, and 18 inches front to back. I use a single Finnex Planted Plus sitting right on top of the tank, and it works fine for low medium light. A pair of them would give high light.


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## RaphK (Jul 16, 2015)

I have an 80g that is 24in deep, with 20in from light to substrate. I dose Excel and dry ferts and run two 48" Finnex 24/7s on it (used to be 4xT5HO). I grow anubias, water sprite, crypts, java fern, willow hygro, ludwigia repens, and wisteria. Too deep to carpet anything, though. I have been finding you do need quite a lot of current to get everything circulating through the water column; as more plants have grown, I have started getting BBA on the bottom.


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

Some great info, thanks everyone. So let me first address the plants that I recently added to the tank and maybe I can get some feedback as to whether these will work or not. here is the list:

Bacopa caroliniana 
Rotala sp. 'Colorata' 
Ludwigia palustris 
Ludwigia repens
Lindernia rotundifolia 'Variegated'
Bacopa salzmannii

I also originally added very nice Ludwigia SP Red but the leaves seemed to wither away and BBA took hold. The plant wasn't dead because what started as a clipping, had some good roots when I finally gave up and pulled it out. It was also pearling still but I couldn't handle how bad it looked. 

So I guess I want to ask a couple of questions. Being new to freshwater planted tanks, I was just buying clippings from forum members and sticking them in the substrate. I'm using Eco-complete but being a new tank, I'm guessing it's not holding a lot of nutrients yet. Most of what the plants get is from my GLA Co2 and then I'm also dosing dry ferts using the PPS-Pro method. I recently cut the dose in half because I missed the instruction that stated that the dose was based on a heavily planted tank. Getting back to the clippings for a second, given everything I've already mentioned in the original post along with this info, should I not be using clippings but instead start with rooted plants? Does that matter? 

Next, only one of you mentioned they use a Finnex Ray2 and this may be where I've got myself in trouble. I think it's just to much light in this tank right now. A couple of days ago, I placed some window screen under it and I already hate the look but it does cut the light about in half. I think what I'm going to do is pick up a Finnex 24/7 and put it alongside the other one. Not because I need more light but because the Ray2 is all white light and it's missing spectrums that may be important to growth.

I'll be honest. After the first few posts in this thread, I was tempted to just give up. I couldn't bare to tell the wife that the one piece of equipment that we got a good price on (the tank) was going to need to be replaced. She has had it up to here already. Now having read some more posts, at least I know it's possible to have plants in a 20"+ tank. Tonight while searching on Craigslist for a replacement tank, I saw an advertisement for a nursery in my area that sells aquatic plants. They are advertising Anubias, Ludwigia, Bacopa, Swords, Rotala, Sagittaria, Java Fern and much more. I'm wondering if these are plants with roots, do I stand a better chance at getting better initial growth. I have to say, the Bacopa Caroliniana that I had high hopes for as a background plant just will NOT GROW ROOTS! They just slowly get BBA and struggle. I haven't taken them out yet cause I'm hoping for a miracle. I've also took the other advice and started dosing 10ml of Excel directly on the BBA every other day. Cranking the Co2 to about 30-35ppm and see if that helps. I've been running an airstone at night to help the fish. Hoping that's okay and doesn't increase the BBA. I've also cut down feeding from once a day to once every other day.

If you guys can think of anything else, LMK. I'm still going to look for a 40B. I have no idea what the dimensions of a 40B are but I'll soon find out. I'm guessing it probably won't fit on this existing 36" stand right? Thanks again and please, more feedback, more feedback! 😉


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

Oh and one more thing. Quit suggesting that I HANG or SUSPEND anything from the livingroom ceiling unless you want to be invited over so you can explain to the wife how suspending pendant lights below a coffered ceiling with molding would look outstanding! 🍻


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## pmcarbrey (Jan 19, 2013)

JohnsTank said:


> Oh and one more thing. Quit suggesting that I HANG or SUSPEND anything from the livingroom ceiling unless you want to be invited over so you can explain to the wife how suspending pendant lights below a coffered ceiling with molding would look outstanding! 🍻


How about we just explain it to you?









All it takes is a little conduit and half an hour's time and you can easily hang any light and make it look tasteful.


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## Kampo (Nov 3, 2015)

I'm in a similar boat. just got a amazing deal on a 120 gallon. plan is Discus, initially as they grow out just going to be a big hunk of driftwood with tons of anubias on it and maybe some floating plants. but once they are 4inches + plan is to add white sand and some more plants. want to be in low-medium light. want 24/7 ram timer effect, this will be my main display tank want it to have viewablity a lot of the day even dimmed. enough light to grow swords and such well, I might add a low dose of C02 just to keep the plants out competing the algae, and to help anubias cover the driftwood faster.

some ideas i've been kicking around:
2x30inch beamswork 2x3watt lights +a DIY 5ft strip of RGB lights for color all run thru a Sunsetter Ramp Timer

2x30inch Planted+ 24/7 not sure if this will be enough, i'm leaning toward not. maybe go with 2x48inch lights centered?

3x4ft Reefbar 8k lights run thru a Sun Setter with a DIY RGB Strip all run thru a Sunsetter (not sure if the numbers from 21led are legit or not, says 1 bar is 30 par at 24inches. so i'm thinking based on that at 27-30inches depending on where I mount the bars I should be with 3 bars at least 50? but just seems like a good amount of PAR for fairly low power.

2x48inch Beamswork Fspec 5 row lights run thru a sunsetter (simlar concerns as the Reefbar setup, actually more wattage, but small LEDs...that said 120 watts of LED is a lot of light) I like that this has the RGB lights built in compared to the 3watt strip for more color pop.

anyone have any thoughts?

Bump:


pmcarbrey said:


> How about we just explain it to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


just curious what tools do you need to do this. it looks nice!


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## RaphK (Jul 16, 2015)

JohnsTank said:


> Getting back to the clippings for a second, given everything I've already mentioned in the original post along with this info, should I not be using clippings but instead start with rooted plants? Does that matter?


A lot of stem plants actually feed off the water column, growing roots from nodes on the stem. If the stem plant doesn't have these yet, you probably want to float it for a while until it grows some, or just weight it down rather than sticking it in the substrate. Stems often rot away when stuck in the substrate.



> Tonight while searching on Craigslist for a replacement tank, I saw an advertisement for a nursery in my area that sells aquatic plants. They are advertising Anubias, Ludwigia, Bacopa, Swords, Rotala, Sagittaria, Java Fern and much more. I'm wondering if these are plants with roots, do I stand a better chance at getting better initial growth.


Anubias is low light (though mine don't mind more light, they just grow faster. They are a rhizome plant and root to hold on (an epiphyte), but feed from the rhizome. Don't bury it. Once they have long roots coming down from the rhizome, you can bury the ends of those.

Swords are a rosette plant, and have roots.

Java fern is also an epiphyte. You need to attach it to rock or driftwood. Its roots float free and that's how they feed. It also likes lower light -- some kinds will actually "burn" away and skeletonize if there is too much light.

Sagittaria are hardy as well. 

I would start with the above, and maybe something like water sprite or wisteria, if you're new to aquarium plants. A good rule of thumb is "if it has a stem, it's trickier." Bacopa, rotala, ludwigia, all trickier. I failed to keep the former two alive in my 24" deep tank, but they do great in my shallower 16g. Both tanks get the same fert regimen. Ludwigia only worked when I found plants that were already 12" tall.


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## pmcarbrey (Jan 19, 2013)

Kampo said:


> Bump:
> 
> just curious what tools do you need to do this. it looks nice!


DIY – An Inexpensive (Light) Hanger Kit - Reefkeeping.com
All it takes is a pipe bender, a drill, and if you want it black, some spray paint.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

RaphK said:


> A lot of stem plants actually feed off the water column, growing roots from nodes on the stem. If the stem plant doesn't have these yet, you probably want to float it for a while until it grows some, or just weight it down rather than sticking it in the substrate. Stems often rot away when stuck in the substrate.


Stem plants do not need roots on the cuttings before planting them. Just stick the cutting down deep into the substrate, even all the way to the bottom, and they will soon be growing very well if you have adequate nutrients and light for them. Like virtually all plants, they get nutrients from where ever they can, the water through the leaves, or the roots in the substrate, or both. Not all stem plants are easy to grow, but very many are.


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## soundsabitfishy (May 1, 2014)

I have been operating a heavily planted 13x24x24 tank with 2-3 inches of FloraMax substrate, and a Finnex Planted+ light for just over four years. I don't use co2 injection but I do dose the tank with Flourish Excel by Seachem to provide the co2 reaction. Other than the initial algae problems when first setting up I haven't had an algae bloom in over three years.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

I have a 24" high tank (65g high). I had a 2nd Beamswork fixture, than a Finnex Ray 2 DS (a disappointment for me). Could not even grow vallisneria with both the Beamswork and Finnex, could not grow ludwigia repens nor bacopa caroliniana, they were ugly, not doing well and attracted algae. I was able to grow h. polysperma, anubias, java fern though.

Right now i have 2 TMC Grobeam 600, and a Zetlight Lancia. The Grobeams made a good difference, for example now my vals grow good.

Seems like there is a big difference between using light for a 18" and 24" high tank.

Michel.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I have a single ray 2 on my 55g, (Not the tallest tank, but still a pain). I can grow carpets and basically everything I want


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

soundsabitfishy said:


> I have been operating a heavily planted 13x24x24 tank with 2-3 inches of FloraMax substrate, and a Finnex Planted+ light for just over four years. I don't use co2 injection but I do dose the tank with Flourish Excel by Seachem to provide the co2 reaction. Other than the initial algae problems when first setting up I haven't had an algae bloom in over three years.


I don't mean to get off of the lighting subject but I would like to ask about your fert method. I too am using Co2 and Excel but I'm also using PPS-PRO to dose dry ferts. Is Flourish Excel the alternative to fry ferts or is it used in conjunction with. I don't want to debate which is better. I have always understood that Flourish is more expensive simply because of the amount of water used but does one decide which to use or are both used?


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

Isn't it odd how some have had issues with the Ray2 but no sooner do I decide to take a sledge to it, then I read someone singing accolades to this fixture. So here is what I know for sure. The Ray2 is Finnex's oldest of its LED line. It also has the greatest PAR readings. There are no colored lights as all of the bulbs are white. Lastly, and this is conjecture: This light appears to Have the greatest number of complaints? Most having to do with brightness and growth issues. 

I'm still going to use it with the window screen together with a Plus 24/7. I have no illusion (for lack of a better word) that using these two together will get me good PAR numbers at 19"+. I think at some point I will still need a shallower tank.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

JohnsTank said:


> Isn't it odd how some have had issues with the Ray2 but no sooner do I decide to take a sledge to it, then I read someone singing accolades to this fixture. So here is what I know for sure. The Ray2 is Finnex's oldest of its LED line. It also has the greatest PAR readings. There are no colored lights as all of the bulbs are white. Lastly, and this is conjecture: This light appears to Have the greatest number of complaints? Most having to do with brightness and growth issues.
> 
> I'm still going to use it with the window screen together with a Plus 24/7. I have no illusion (for lack of a better word) that using these two together will get me good PAR numbers at 19"+. I think at some point I will still need a shallower tank.


I dont see many complaints with the Ray 2 other than awful color rendition due to being completely white, and it not being dimmable. Just what others have told me.


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## John Wong (Dec 2, 2015)

JohnsTank said:


> I don't mean to get off of the lighting subject but I would like to ask about your fert method. I too am using Co2 and Excel but I'm also using PPS-PRO to dose dry ferts. Is Flourish Excel the alternative to fry ferts or is it used in conjunction with. I don't want to debate which is better. I have always understood that Flourish is more expensive simply because of the amount of water used but does one decide which to use or are both used?


Dry ferts and excel are totally different thing. Dry fert provide nitrogen, phosphorus and other various kind of minerals. Excel provide glyceraldehyde as a source of carbon. Glyceraldehyde and co2 both are part of Calvin cycle(photosynthesis) with co2 enter at the very beginning of the cycle while glyceraldehyde enter at very last stage of photosynthesis to produce glucose. The molecule in Calvin cycle is called glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate (G3P)









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## John Wong (Dec 2, 2015)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ad0pwwt17KU&t=2m47s&feature=youtu.be

60cm tall aquascape by James Findley

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## nikohak (Oct 21, 2016)

You can explain your wife, that she will get a way better looking aquarium. And by this I mean that the aquarium is a major focal point in a living room and if the lights are close to surface, the topmost plant leaves are so brightly lit that it is a literal eyesore to watch. And at the same time the aquarium looks dim at the bottom.

You can see this effect more prominently in photos. Many of the hobbyist aquarium photos are dark, but totally over exposed from the top, while big name aquascapers manage to keep the light natural by hanging the light further away from the surface.

If you are looking a light suitable for this, the led beam angles need to be small (80 degrees is common I guess). Some marketing material can be very misleading. For example Fluval touts their solutions as being superior because they have a wide beam angle.


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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

pmcarbrey said:


> How about we just explain it to you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I loved the idea but the other issue is how bright my Finnex Ray2 is. I would need a canopy to block the light in so it doesn't create issues for the people watching TV. 

Great idea and economical though and economical.


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## skipcharlie (Dec 17, 2016)

I'm in the same boat. Newbie. Got a great deal on a 65 gallon, 25 inches tall. I didn't it would be such a pain. Started with a single finnex planted + 24/7. Now I have 3 of them and plants are doing okay. Still not satisfied though and thinking about getting a kessil a360

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## John Wong (Dec 2, 2015)

skipcharlie said:


> I'm in the same boat. Newbie. Got a great deal on a 65 gallon, 25 inches tall. I didn't it would be such a pain. Started with a single finnex planted + 24/7. Now I have 3 of them and plants are doing okay. Still not satisfied though and thinking about getting a kessil a360
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


For me relatively moderate light is much more manageable. Slower plant growth, less trim, scape remain in best shape much longer, less algae problem, fish are happier

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## JohnsTank (Jul 16, 2016)

John Wong said:


> For me relatively moderate light is much more manageable. Slower plant growth, less trim, scape remain in best shape much longer, less algae problem, fish are happier
> 
> Sent from my MX4 using Tapatalk


I have to agree. I started using that Ray2 and 24/7 together and within 3 days the BBA started making a comeback. Using just the 24/7 has helped a lot


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