# Long internodes on cabomba pulcherrima



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

scolley said:


> Is this an open and shut case of "more light required"?


With 4wpg, I doubt it, thats the nature of the beast.
It's a fast growing plant, it is obviously being fed well, which is what you want, so roud:
My Asian Ambulia grows like that, when I get tired of it, I pull it out and place in another one of my low tech tanks, till I need it again.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks. That's kind of what I thought, but it is frusterating. I've got spot in the tank where I want a stand of it as a mid-ground plant, but to get it nice and tight, keep having to trim the tight pruple tops, rip out the old long stuff and replant.

I've got two 65w PC's so my 4wpg is a calculation of average light, on being on the entire photoperiod, the other on for part of it. So I could crank that up to an average of 5 or 6 wpg, but that's pretty severe.

I was kind of hoping there would be a magical answer like "if you're running 6.7K's swap them out for 10K's" or soemthing. But sounds like I have to live with it. Thanks.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

my experience with it is similar to yours. If you have strong lighting I think it tries to get to the top of the water as quick as possible so it has longer internode distances. Then once it gets to the top it produces shorter nodes...more leaves and gets ready to flower at the surface. I had to get rid of mine cause I got sick of the scraggly (sp?) look. It always looks so nice even in Petsmart plant tanks.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Thanks for the confirmation dawger, but it's not exactly encouraging. When these came to me they were bushy their whole length. How do they get that way?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Is this the same plant as cabomba furcata(piauhyensis)? The internodes on mine are also a bit too long for my taste.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

scolley said:


> I was kind of hoping there would be a magical answer like "if you're running 6.7K's swap them out for 10K's" or soemthing. But sounds like I have to live with it. Thanks.


You know, there is a thread about this on APC. It talks about how 10k bulbs lead to more side shoot growth, leading to a fuller appearance. The thread gets very technical about the light spectrum - ratio of red to far-red. 

That forum is down now but I'll post the link when it's up.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Rolo said:


> You know, there is a thread about this on APC. It talks about how 10k bulbs lead to more side shoot growth, leading to a fuller appearance. The thread gets very technical about the light spectrum - ratio of red to far-red.
> 
> That forum is down now but I'll post the link when it's up.


Interesting...since when I used to have Cabomba, I ran both 6700 and 10K bulbs and I still got that scraggly look :icon_idea


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## Dieni (Nov 18, 2004)

My cacomba does the same, when I first bought it, it was much nicer and fuller. Once I read somewhere, that red makes plants grow outwards, while blue makes them grow taller. I dont know if this was vice versa.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> Is this the same plant as cabomba furcata(piauhyensis)?


If you are talking about the plant shown in this link, it could be. I need to take a pic and let you guys decide. But I can tell you, it does not look this red. It looks a whole lot like cabomba caroliniana, but is a bit darker greeen, and gets purplish on it tips. I'm sure there are a lot more differences, but hey, i'm a novice, and that's close. :wink:


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

I bought mine as C. piauhyensis, does it look like yours? Wish the internodes were shorter.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I don't think it's the same thing. But looks real similar.










Mine starts to turn purple when the tops get to the top of the tank. But in mid tank they never have that lovely pinkish hue yours have. If I do have the same thing, I've got to start getting more iron into my water column or something.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Rolo said:


> You know, there is a thread about this on APC. It talks about how 10k bulbs lead to more side shoot growth, leading to a fuller appearance. The thread gets very technical about the light spectrum - ratio of red to far-red.
> 
> That forum is down now but I'll post the link when it's up.





Georgiadawgger said:


> Interesting...since when I used to have Cabomba, I ran both 6700 and 10K bulbs and I still got that scraggly look :icon_idea


This is the thread I'm talking about.

Concerning Cabomba, I've never got compact internode growth. I think it's just this plant's nature to have longer internodes. But that link above does shed a lot of truth on this matter.


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

scolley-
that's my plant! do we know which cabomba variety that is? i like it a lot even though mine has no red in it at all.
kris


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Kris - according to Aquariumplant.com, it's c. pulcherrima .


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Funny thing about aquariumplant.com is, in their description of C. pulcherrima, the text referred to C. furcata :icon_roll


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> Funny thing about aquariumplant.com is, in their description of C. pulcherrima, the text referred to C. furcata :icon_roll


Maybe it is the same thing then. Starting to look that way, except of course the profound color difference between yours and mine.

But that doesn't mean anything necessarily. You should have seen this stuff when I first got it! Wow. Deep purple tips, dark green everywhere else, and really bushy. It's physically thriving in my tank, but it looks like a different plant.



Rolo - great link, and apparently recent thinking. But I think if you distill it all down it comes down to this...

The best way to create more compact growth, with more side shoots is to provide that plants with lots of red (peak wavelength 660 nm) but little far red (peak wavelength 730 nm) light. And this has no direct correlation with Kelvins. Anecdotally the GE 9325 does this, but no one seems to have a comprehensive breakdown on which bulbs actually provide this. And to make matters worse, it's not confirmed that aquatic plants work this way anyway.​
That sound about right?


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## Himbo (Dec 21, 2004)

I seem to be having the same problem with some of my stem plants too, and was going to ask on the forum, but no one here seems to really know the answer......

I guess one thing to do would be to ask the store owner how their tanks are set up, or maybe how their distributor's tanks are set up, or is this a closely guarded secret? Am I just stating the obvious here? :icon_roll


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

After some online research, I have concluded that they are indeed DIFFERENT.

My c. furcata is always that red in my tank, even when it is low. C. furcata typically has THREE leaves per whorl, while other cabombas have leaves in pairs. C. pulcherrima is also called C. caroliniana var pulcherrima, so it is considered a variant of the common green cabomba.

Come to think of it, it is possible that lower light might produce bushier growth for a lot of plants. I have seen very bushy growth c. furcata tank pics with only 2wpg on the forums. I am going to try it in one of my low tech tanks.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> I am going to try it in one of my low tech tanks.


Please post an update when you find out - Thanks. :icon_wink


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

scolley said:


> Please post an update when you find out - Thanks. :icon_wink


Then you have to wait for MONTHS, because growth in the low tech/non-CO2 tanks is VERY slow. However, I am already seeing far shorter internodes from Hygro. 'sunset' in it.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey, I could go low light in about 15 seconds myself. Just unplug one of the two cords for the lights over my tank. But gosh knows what havoc that would cause! :icon_eek: 

No Shalu, if you've got a low light tank already, by all means go ahead. Seems to be a few people that would love to know. I can wait.  

We'll just call the shorter internodes in your Hygro. 'sunset' an early indicator. I hope that you can find out for us that is is that simple.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I may be jumping the gun a bit here, but I took some pics of the same stems as the ones I posted at 01-16-2005 04:36 PM below. So it's what? Three days later?

They are a few inches taller now, and are getting discernibly bushier at the tops. You have to do an A:B comparison between the pics, but it's there.










This next pic is of a different stem the hit the top yesterday and is now bending over a bit. Other than beginning to exhibit that purple coloration, you can see that there are 4-5 internodes within the same space as the next internode below those.











Is this normal stem growth, or are they getting bushier when they get to the top? It's this growth pattern that keeps me ripping up the old stuff, and replanting the tips - just to keep them a bit bushier.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Mine grew a bit like yours did. Bushy at the top where the "good" light was, but stringly and scraggly on its way to the surface. I really do thing its because of high lighting. Wierd huh? Also, anyone ever noticed that Wisteria (H. difformis) will grow upright in lower light but creep along the substrate with really obnoxious high light (like me). I have a really bushy plant, but it isn't more than 6 inches tall....but its at least a foot long across the substrate!!


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks for posting those pictures guys. Cleared a bit for me in regards to the Cabomba that I have as well. After seeing those pictures, I can confirm that mine is C. pulcherrima. roud: Just handed a couple stems of it to both Boun and Ray over the weekend (if either of you are reading this thread, there's the ID on it).

As for internode, it does get scraggly on top (bound to happen when the tank is 24" deep), but the top parts of it can be replanted (plant grows quick enough where you'll have plenty of tops to plant). I'm in the process of replanting the tank, so I'll just use the tops this time to see how the internodes fair (will move it into an area w/more light distribution instead of sticking it in the back right corner) w/alternating 6700k and 10,000k.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

If lighting temp is the question, mine are directly under a Current USA 6700 + 10000K Dual daylight lamp, with another 6700K Sunpaq on them a good part of the day. Bushy is not happening under those conditions until they get right up to the top.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I just returned from a two week trip away. And I set an experiment prior to leaving.

I did my normal weekly trim, including topping off some of the short bushy C. pulcherrima tops and re-planting them lower down. But I left some that were a few inches from the top, knowing they'd hit the top and wallow in the high light while I was gone.

I returned to a dense mat of horizontally growing vegetation at the top of the tank, including the C. pulcherrima, holding its own for space at the top with L. repens another stem plan (not yet positively identified).

To my surprise, the C. pulcherrima tops laying across the tank are NOT bushy. They've got moderate length internodes, and aren't particularly purple, though it is evident on the undersides of the leaves.

This kind of shoots a hole in any suspicions that it is the relative proximity to the light that creates bushiness/short internodes.

I'd take a picture, but it's a jungle at the top. You wouldn't be able to distinguish the plants well. As I'm trimming I'll set some of these "horizontal top dwellers" aside and get pics in isolation so you can see what I'm talking about.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

In a different post by Tom Barr, he states that very bushy(compressed internodes) growth on cabombas can be induced by NO3 deficiency. Dare to try it?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> In a different post by Tom Barr, he states that very bushy(compressed internodes) growth on cabombas can be induced by NO3 deficiency. Dare to try it?


LOL! I don't' think so! It that's true, and if that proves to the only way to do it, that's really bad news. That is unless one is willing to turn the dials back a bit, and go low-light, low-nutrient, and slow growth. I'm not skilled enough at this yet to risk that.

BTW - I started trimming the tank (will take multiple passes) and found that what I expressed in my prior post was not true. Some plants were growing horizontal across the top, but the C. pulcherrima was not. It would hit the top and keep growing, but got kind of pushed under by the sturdier stems like L. repens. So I didn't snap any pics because my assumption that they had been growing for a week or two directly under the lights was wrong. Sorry.

But it is worth noting that the tips that could poke through (1" or so) were bushy and purple.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Scolley, I did put some of my Cabomba furcata stems in my low tech 10 gallon tank couple of weeks ago, it is doing fine, but growing VERY slowly. Looks like it will grow less than 1 inch/month, LOL. Still very red though. I am falling in love with my low tech tank, I can grow most high light plants there, without the high light pruning chore roud: .


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> I did put some of my Cabomba furcata stems in my low tech 10 gallon tank.


Sahlu - what's the WPG in that tank?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

2x15w screw-on compact fluorescent bulbs, they are 98cents each in supermarkets. Fit into the incandescent light fixture, so no additional cost. Very crappy 2700K, yellow color, but the plants don't care. No algae at all in the tank, except a little bit of hair algae trying to grow on the (plain)gravel. That won't be a problem when the glosso takes over. I use a bit Excel, no CO2. Another thing I like about this tank is, because of no CO2, many plants(including glosso) are growing much smaller leaves than in CO2 enriched tanks. This is a great thing for a small tank, to create the illusion of much bigger tank. 

I have cherry shrimps and amano shrimps, added 6 neons yestoday. NO3 is from flake food only, I dose some K, PO4 and CSM Plantex after weekly 20% water change.

I will post some pics in the gallery once the tank matures more.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Sounds very cool Shalu! Looking forward to those pics. Just be sure to show us some that include the colorful, bushy Cabomba!

Just don't skimp on the flake food. Cuz' if you limit that, we won't know if it is the light, or the NO3 deficiency!


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

scolley said:


> Just don't skimp on the flake food. Cuz' if you limit that, we won't know if it is the light, or the NO3 deficiency!


 :icon_bigg I am keeping a close eye on that, right now, it is a steady 5-7 ppm, I won't let it drop below 5 roud: .


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Scolley, I posted some pics of the 10 gallon in the photo album. Sorry, my nitrate dropped to 0 while I fell asleep :icon_bigg I am adding NO3 now, thought I don't need to.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Shalu - that looks like 7 days between your two posts. I think that 7 days won't be enough to sway the test too bad in a low light tank!

I'm hopping on a flight for a business trip in a few moments though, so forgive me if it take a few days to look at those pics. But I will!

Thanks for keeping this up!

(so just how long were you sleeping???)


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Hey Scolley...I had to show you the internode length on my cabomba.. It has the purple hue on the top also. I have about 2 wpg. These things grow about 2" a day, but I really dont like the space between the internodes. Nothing full about them at all. I cut them back an replant, but by the time they start reaching the top, the internodes space is unreal. My water params are in check, so with my low light, an yer high light, who knows...  
I have the C02 around 27 ppm at the moment.

ph-6.6
KH-3.5
nitrate-15 ppm
N04-1


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

hm.. perhaps NO CO2 is the key


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

shalu said:


> hm.. perhaps NO CO2 is the key


LOL...Your probably right Shalu. I might have to replace them later on with something else, cause I cant get rid of the C02!! :wink:


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

By the way, your pic does not look like cabomba, it is probably ambulia(maybe I can't see it clearly in the picture). My ambulia has the longest internodes of all plants in the CO2 enriched tank, about 3 inches apart! Cabomba(green and purple) has only two leaf stems connecting to the main stalk, cabomba furcata has three.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> By the way, your pic does not look like cabomba, it is probably ambulia


Agreed. It looks to be Asian Ambulia to me as well.

Mike


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

same here, and if it is... then its normal for it to have longer space between nodes.


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

you are absulutely right.. :icon_redf I stand corrected. Well actually I'm sittin down. It is ambulia. 

So this is normal? Although they are nice, I really dont care for the internode space...Maybe I should try cabomba then... :icon_bigg I love the looks an the growth. I would rather have a similar plant without the space in the internodes. 

Maybe someone can send me a pm with a recomendation. I didn't really intend on hijacking Scolleys thread.. :icon_frow


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

I don't think Scolley would mind because it is still internode length related. I will add Ambulia into one of my low light/no CO2 tanks and hope it grows compact internode as well. Like you, I really like this plant, just hate the long internodes. I will update later.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Shalu's right! Scolley doesn't mind. :wink: It's all related. Just travelling at the moment and not able to keep up with the forums.

Happy to see that business is rolling along without me! roud:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK - I'm back... haven't touched the tank for almost 3 weeks, and it's a jungle. One stem of the cabomba hit the top and went horizontal across the surface for about 6 inches. I'm not going to bother with a pic because I'm disgusted. The internodes on that stem growing along the surface, just a few inches from the lights, is about 1" consistently.  Not to red either I might add.

It's clearly more complex than just the amount of light.

Shalu - you got any update for us? Or am I over anxious?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Scolley, after I started dosing NO3, growth is much faster. The leaves got bigger, but the internodes are still more compact(less than 1/2) than in my highlight/CO2 tank. It is not as red possibly because of less light intensity.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

shalu said:


> I started dosing NO3, growth is much faster. The leaves got bigger, but the internodes are still more compact...


OK. I'm confused now. Where does that leave us on the NO3 deficiency question?


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

So I am still get compact internode without the help of NO3 deficiency. With NO3 deficiency, the internodes are 1/3 to 1/4 of that in my hight light/CO2 tank, and smaller leaves. Without NO3 deficiency, leaves are normal size, still decent internode at 1/2.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Shalu, I think there is something to that. My internodes are all longer than they were a couple of months ago. But I've also let my nitrates creep up from something like .6 ppm up to the 1.5 or so where it is now.

I might drop my nitrates just see what happens.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

you mean from 6ppm to 15ppm?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

No Shalu, I just spaced out. I'm bummed about some bad news I got today on the tank I was looking to build, and I'm not thinking clearly. I should stop posting...

Don't know what I was thinking. Something has gone from just over .5 to about 1.5, but that's phosphates, not nitrates. My nitrates have been pretty much in the 9-14 range for quite a while. Or at least I think so. Will have to go check. If so, obviously my lengthing internodes has little to do with my nitrates. I'll go check my records though, just in case.

Sorry for the boneheaded post.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I went back and checked my nitrates. I've been trying to stabilize a peristaltic dosing system, which has been kind of set the dosage, forget ferts for a week or so, come back, check, adjust, and repeat. In that process, my nitrates have been swinging over the last two months from a low of 6.0 to a high of 14 ppm, so I definitely cannot confirm the NO3 linkage. Sorry.

But I was gone the last three weeks, and my nitrates were 12 when I left, and 10 when I returned, with very little algae growth. If that means I may have to pick between low algae and short internodes in a high light tank, I think the internode length will have to get sacrificed. :wink:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*a blinding flash of the obvious*

Got a good suggestion from Bob (Betowess). A BFO (blinding flash of the obvious) really. He said I should just ask the vendor that I got the cabomba from in the first place, how they achieve the short internodes. Duh.  

I'd always figured that would be a trade secret. But hey - doesn't hurt to ask.

So I picked up the phone and talked to Mike at AquariumPlant. He was very open and forthcoming in his response. And though he did not ask me to, I'll withhold the _exact _ details of his response, as it must be a trade secret to some extent. But I will go a far as saying, he says that he gets nice bushy, and deeply colored plants by supplying A LOT of light. A LOT.

Now you'll have to excuse me, I've got to go reprogram the schedules on my two 65w lights. One of them is not staying on nearly long enough each day... :icon_wink


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

scolley said:


> But I will go a far as saying, he says that he gets nice bushy, and deeply colored plants by supplying A LOT of light. A LOT.


Like direct sun in a green house? haha. You did not say if he uses CO2 in the tank. By the way, the growth tip stopped in my 10gallon a few weeks after NO3 shortage, but it is sending a new stem from the base now. Same thing happened to r. macrandra.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I'm sorry. I should have been more specific. A lot of electric light. As measured in watts. I got a few more details. But I would feel bad about spilling all the beans. This is just my hobby. It's his livelihood.

Shalu - are the internodes shortening too? Or is this just an interesting validation of how to get them "bushier", even if with long internodes?


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

My parrot's feather is having the same problem.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Come on Scolley, spill a couple pintos. They're running Icecap 660 ballasts with T12s @10000k right? I mean, its suppose to be their killer lighting system? Is this guess even close? Just a guess... bob


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

It's been my experience that there are really two main factors that affect Cabomba. Light and temp. Warmer tanks, 75 degrees and up, tend to promote longer internodes. Lights that have higher levels of red light also promote the same. Here is what I posted on a UK board;

"Plants can and do use the spectrum provided between 5000K and 10000K. Please don't confuse a 10000K bulb with an Actinic bulb as they are not the same at all.

With the 10000K bulbs your plants use more CO2 because the plants are able to use light in the 660-700 nm range more efficiently. There are two special chlorophyll's, P680 & P700, that use this spectrum of light. Light in this range is best in a watt to watt growth yield. However, blue light allows more CO2 in enter the plant since the stomata open even larger when the plant is exposed to blue. The blue wavelengths contain very little red then the plants will grow slower but more compact and bushy. A red, or cooler bulb, 5000K, is more heavily weighted toward the red wavelength and containing very little blue will cause plants to grow really fast and leggy (large distances between nodes).

So ideally you want a combination of the two ends of the usable spectrum for your plants. You can mix 10000K and 6700K with very good results."

Cabomba seems to be doing really well under MH for me as well.

And you are right Betowess. All 660's and 10K URI bulbs. I'm going to be trying out the Coralife 6500K VHOs over a few tanks for the next two months and see if I like the results. The color spectrum of those bulbs look to be promising.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Thanks for the info Del. I do have a 10000k bulb in the tank, I will put the cabomba under it and see what happens. Nothing I can do about the warm temp though, it is a discus tank.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Yeah, the heat is going to be your biggest problem here I think. The warmer the environment the more CO2 you need and the more intense lighting you need and the more fertilizers you need. They are all kinda proportionate to the water temperature unfortunately. The warmer the plant is the fast it's metabolism.

My own personal tank stay below 70 degrees and I have no trouble spawning either cichlids or tetras. I do understand your issues with Discus though. I could never keep them in water under 77 degrees and keep them healthy.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Yeah, that was very informative. Thanks Del! I remember reading in Kasselman or someplace that Cabomba likes cooler temps. Now I just have to find a good 10000k T5. bob


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey Del - Thanks for the additional info! Mike alluded to to this, along w/some w/g numbers, put it didn't seem right to post them here. Thanks for providing the additional feedback.

So I'm certainly off to pull that 10,000K out of the closet and put that back in service, replacing a "dual daylight". And leaving in my 6,700K. And maybe ratcheting my 76 degree temp back a couple of degrees.

Gonna play hell with my nicely worked out fert schedule. But it could be worth it. Thanks!

Looking forward to seeing other people's results of this new information posted!


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## PeteyPob (Apr 26, 2004)

Great information here!
Its nice to see what different people have tried as far as lighting goes. I have a 4-65watt Coralife fixture and just replaced all new bulbs. Instead of keeping the standard all 6700k, I went ahead and got two 6700k and two 10000k. 

Is there a certain way to get the best result as far as placement of the lights in the fixture?
I have the 10000k's as the two back lights and the 6700k's as the front. Should they be "mixed" together? By this I mean one 6700k and one 10000k in the front and the same in the back.


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