# Uni's 30g/20g Nursery



## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I've set aside the time, did my research, and spent some money. My rams and angels have been laying eggs for months, but I've only made lame efforts to raise the fry/eggs to maturity. I've had enough :icon_bigg ! Time to start a nursery (and a new thread ).

2 - 10 gal tanks
2 - AC mini's (with ceramic, sponge, and substrat)
2 - 50 watt via aqua heaters
2 - Lee's specimen containters (no flow holes)
2 - Hagen breeding pens (flow-through holes)

KH - 3 deg
GH - 3 deg


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Angels*

I started this thread in the fish section, so I won't post the whole story again. Here's the short-story. Angels layed eggs (12 days ago), lost almost all eggs to fungus, currently have 7 fry still alive.

But the angels layed another clutch today, so I'll start the story of the second batch. This time, I've immediately moved the eggs to one of the nursery tanks. They are housed inside one of the specimen containers (no flow holes) and given a couple drops of anti-fungal medicine and an air stone. This way, I don't have to medicate the entire tank, screwing up the bio filtration. Hopefully this move will help fight off the fungus.

Photos were taken at one hour old.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Rams*

The rams are excellent parents, so I let them raise the fry until they were freeswimming. Once they are swimming, however, they don't last long. So, I decided that I will be doing the parenting this time. 

The fry follow the parents closely in a 'cloud'. I lured them into open water by feeding the parents. When the parents came out the feed, the fry followed, and I netted 95% of them with one swoop of my brine shrimp net. I immediately moved them to the nursery, but I am keeping them in the specimen contain for now (for easier feeding). 

I've read numerous reports online that baby rams are unable to eat brine shrimp nauplii because their mouths are too small. I went for it anyway, and seem to be having success. They definitely got them into their bellies .

The second pair of breeding rams currently have a clutch of 'wigglers' attached to some driftwood.

By the way, neither pair of rams are siblings. I bought a male and female from two different sources, and it so happens that the they each hooked up with the brother/sister of the other.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Nice pictures, good luck and keep us updated


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Looks like another great start! Not sure where you read about the fact that ram frys can't eat BBS after being free swimming, but that isn't the case as you have found out (once the sponge gets colonized w/bacteria, the frys will be using that as their food source in the early stages of their development).

The angels might take another few matings before they get it right and you get more viable frys (male coming into maturity), but nothing to really hassle over as long as you're patient. Some of the eggs aren't viable and looks like they'll be fungused soon, but I do see some which aren't. Good luck w/this batch.


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## FMZ (Jul 13, 2004)

Just to help you out, buy Maracide by Mardel Labs... it helps fight fungus on eggs. Works for me all the time


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Ibn said:


> Looks like another great start! Not sure where you read about the fact that ram frys can't eat BBS after being free swimming, but that isn't the case as you have found out


I read that here http://members.aol.com/WnyZman/rams.html 
"I have no other small food at most times except newly hatched brine shrimp, so that's what my fry are fed and I have had little or no problems with them eating it. Both "South American Dwarf Cichlids" by Mayland & Bork and "American Cichlids I - Dwarf Cichlids" by Linke & Staeck mention that the mouth's of the young fry are too small to ingest brine shrimp"

and here http://hjem.get2net.dk/Best_of_the_Web/blue rams.html 
"Brine shrimp nauplii are used by some but (many aquarists say their mouths are too small for even brine shrimp-this is also my experience"

....and a few other places.

...another interested (and by interesting, I mean I found it to be completely contradictory to my experience ) is this thread about an experiment showing a relationship between pH and hatching success of Rams http://www.angelfire.com/tx/CichlidPimp/Experiment.html. The water in my planted tank is usually around pH6.6-6.9, and hatch rates are well in the 90% (from what I can tell, 95-100% is more the case)

...and thanks, FMZ, for the anti-fungal recommendation. I have Maracide, Maracyn, Liquid Fungus Cure, and Malachite Green at my disposal .

By the way, no losses over the first night on ram fry roud: .


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

The Linke & Staek publication is quite dated and isn't meant to address all the dwarf cichlids. The majority of dwarf cichlid frys will not have a problem with BBS.

pH has been discussed at great lengths for awhile now and it does hold in certain circumstances, but in other arenas. For some dwarf cichlids, pH will determine the sex ratio (hence the reason why sometimes all the frys from a single batch will only produce one sex). Temperature has such an influence also. The hatch rate that the author is experiencing might be caused by other factors, such as the male coming into age when he shoots less blanks. It also depends on the rams in question. German rams are raised and bred in water with higher pH and hardness values.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

unirdna said:


> The rams are excellent parents, so I let them raise the fry until they were freeswimming. Once they are swimming, however, they don't last long. So, I decided that I will be doing the parenting this time.
> 
> The fry follow the parents closely in a 'cloud'. I lured them into open water by feeding the parents. When the parents came out the feed, the fry followed, and I netted 95% of them with one swoop of my brine shrimp net. I immediately moved them to the nursery, but I am keeping them in the specimen contain for now (for easier feeding).
> 
> ...


Nice!! Good luck with them!! I've always wanted to try breeding rams, but then I'm so short on time! Oh, and the bold...hehe an old saying "incest is best...put your sister to the test!!"...bad bad bad!!  At least the gene pool will stay strong!!


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## mpb (Jun 6, 2004)

Nice setup!

Be advised though that in no time you will need a larger tank with better filtration.

Good luck!


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Nice idea for breeding and raising fry! I really hope you get to raise/sell some fry from this batch. Did you ever try liquid fry food(made for even the smallest of mouths). I noticed you have two pairs of Rams and I read somehwere that males usually display to each other to showoff who is better, did you ever witness this? And you also have a lone Discus, why is that?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> Did you ever try liquid fry food(made for even the smallest of mouths). I noticed you have two pairs of Rams and I read somehwere that males usually display to each other to showoff who is better, did you ever witness this? And you also have a lone Discus, why is that?


Never tried the liquid-fry stuff. I saw it at the petstore, but it seemed a bit pricey for the small amount they give you. I know, baby fish don't eat much . But compared to artemia cysts, that stuff was considerably expensive. (If my ram fry would not have been able to eat the brine shrimp, that, or microworms?, was going to be my next route.

The rams don't show off too much....only about every....10 seconds or so . They are pretty much the same size (same goes for the females), and only lock up in 'real' battle if they both have free-swimming fry. Otherwise, who ever has eggs/fry pushes the others out of the way. The females become somewhat aggressive after eggs have been layed as well. When there are no eggs/fry, the dynamic changes yet again. During this time, the males confront one another (but no tangling) and the females do the same. But female from team "A" and male from team "B" get along just fine (and vice versa).

The Discus is by himself because he is an ornery fart . I've tried introducing a second discus twice, but he never accepts it. The only thing that takes him away from his beatings is when he gets fed. He's also a jerk to the rams, but that's probably because they take shots at him if he comes too close to their eggs. It the female rams that he hates the most; they nail him way harder and more often than the males.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Angels*

I'm having much better success this time around. IBN, you were correct that not all eggs were viable. It looks like I "lost" 5-10% of them. But what's different this time around is that the antifungal medicine is preventing an epidemic. The eggs still turn white, but since no fungus can attack them, I don't have to worry about the other [healthy] eggs being attacked. 

The wigglers are starting to drop off to the bottom of the holding pen. At a glance, there seems to be between 100-150 of them. One thing is certain....If it takes 3 months to raise these fish to 'selling' size, and my angels breed every 2 weeks, there is NO WAY I'm going to be able to raise all these things :icon_conf . I'd have to set up a kiddie-pool in the basement.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Rams*

...and these little guys are doing great, too. I would have expected rams to be more difficult to keep alive....well, I should not jinx myself. There is still a long way to go.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Nice! Remember, what you can't raise would make a great alternative to live food for the rest! :wink:


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## Inzeos (Sep 10, 2004)

Are your fish laying the eggs on that "pen" type object?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Inzeos said:


> Are your fish laying the eggs on that "pen" type object?



It's the intake tube for my H.O.T. Magnum filter. I've tried spawning slates and clay pots - they won't have any of it - they only like that tube :icon_conf .


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Rams (2)*

The other [breeding pair of] rams' fry became free-swimming today. I quickly scooped em up with my brine shirmp net and added them to the nursery. 

The first clutch of ram fry became free-swimming 4 days ago (thursday - last week). You can see the older fry in the background of the photo. The new fry have not eaten yet. The orange color in their bellies is what remains of their yolk.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Day 9*

The angel fry have taken to the water. When the dust settled I managed to keep 70-80% of the original eggs. There looks to be approximately 120 fry remaining. Lost most of that 20-30% during the egg phase, probably from not being fertilized in the first place. In any event, 120 is a significant increase from the 7 that I got this far on the previous batch (of which there are now two remaining). As for the rams, I've only lost a couple when I forgot to give their holding tank a water change (for 3 days...oops). Nitrate climbed to 20-40ppm :icon_redf . This is also the reason I lost 5 of my remaining 7 angels from the first batch. Live and learn :icon_roll . Now both mini-tanks get a 75% water change at least once a day.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Looking good. Over time, the numbers that you're able to raise will increase dramatically and then the problem becomes how to get rid of them.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Day 14*



Ibn said:


> Over time, the numbers that you're able to raise will increase dramatically and then the problem becomes how to get rid of them.


I already have 3 contacts in town that are very eager to get their hands on these guys . Especially the angels. Turns out that two of the place will ONLY buy from local breeders because they have been plagued by that supervirus. 

No major losses to speak of (a few never ate, and died within a few days). I have turned the rams loose into the great depths of the 10 gal . The angels are eating very well, and starting to take on the color of their dad.

Angels eat more and grow much faster than the rams.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Unbelievable! I am lucky if I get the odd Killie fry know and then! :icon_redf 

Mike


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

All is going well. The only obstacle I've encountered, so far, is that neither the rams nor angels want to eat anything but BBS. I've placed an order with angelsplus for some microfoods. I hope they will successfully ween these finicky eaters.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

It's funny when their body shape starts to change into the type of the adult.
Especially angels.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Wow, the fry are starting to take shape! Are you going to sell these or trade them in for store credit?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> Are you going to sell these or trade them in for store credit?


I have two LFS's that I deal with (so far, only plants). Both have expressed an interest in the rams and angels...but especially the angels. When I asked how many they wanted, they both said 100+. Must move a lot of stock :fish: . One store will NOT buy angels from a wholesaler anymore because they die on him so often (virus). One store offers 30% cash retail; the other offers 50% store credit. After this first trial, I'll probably start raising angels exclusively. They grow faster, and the demand is higher (in my area).


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Not surprising since they don't have to deal w/losses from shipping. They're able to turn over quicker and don't have to pay much to have inventory on hand. Plus, the fish are healthier to begin with.


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## mpb (Jun 6, 2004)

I exchange mine baby angels for store credit. Now I have only 7 left that I intend to keep.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*risky business*

Tonight, I started acclimating the fry to city water. They were raised in RO, but will need to get used to the tap if I'm going to sell them to the pet stores. Their original water was 3KH 3GH, and the tap is 14/14 respectively. I gave both tanks a 50% change tonight, which would bring the tanks to 8.5/8.5 or so. I'm really not sweating the angels, because I know that they are pretty scrappy. Just hope the rams make it. I know this can be done because I've seen them at the LFS for sale, in tap water (yep, I asked ).

Note: the rams are a week older than the angels, and yet the angels are much bigger now.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Very nice. Those tanks still look immaculate to this day. Think I'll set up one in the bottom of my stand similar to that for quarantine.


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## maestro001 (Oct 22, 2004)

This is a great thread. very interesting as ive been thinking of breeding my gold rams for while


Do you plan to move them to bigger gor out tanks? if so what size would be needed?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*4 Weeks*

:fish: roud:


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

Awwww, they finally look like angelfish! :icon_mrgr


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Looks like you're up to your ears in angels already, haha. 

Guess the male genes were more dominant over the females by looking at the coloration of the babies.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Dude that's awesome! They all turned out to be daddy's little Angels..not even one is like the mom?! 

How are the Rams turning out?


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

There's actually a few w/lighter coloration in the picture, but even those, aren't light like the mother (they look like smokeys).


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## m3th0d (Jun 27, 2004)

Really cool. 

I wish I had the time and patience to breed fish!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

maestro001 said:


> Do you plan to move them to bigger gor out tanks? if so what size would be needed?


Opinions vary on this one. Originally, I thought I could raise them all in the 10 gals. I now think that a 40g breeder would be ideal. During the holidays, I'll be out of town for a week. I normally do 2-3 water changes a week, and am worried about a possible crash. I plan to move the angels to my planted tank during this time. 



Raul-7 said:


> Dude that's awesome! They all turned out to be daddy's little Angels..not even one is like the mom?! How are the Rams turning out?


The rams are doing fine. Not as sensational as the angels , but interesting in their own right. 










Eric is right, there are about 1/2 dark and 1/2 light(er) angels. Some striping, some marbeling....no real way to know what they are going to look like just yet.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Great thread!

I wish I had the room to try my hand at fish breeding!

Mike


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Day 35 Angels*

For some unknown reason (my guess is overcrowding stress) the angels started to die. One here....one there....then suddenly, 10 in one day!!  . I decided to transplant them all into my planted tank, and they have been in ship shape ever since. They've finally started taking larger foods; frozen brine shrimp and blood worms. +/- 100 fry remain.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Neat looking little guys!

Boy, it would break my heart to say good bye to those little ones after rearing them up! :icon_frow 

Mike


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

When you're raising them in those numbers in such a small tank, you have to pay very careful attention to the water quality. That's the primary reason why you're getting better results in the planted tank (those plants are sucking it all up).


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Ibn said:


> When you're raising them in those numbers in such a small tank, you have to pay very careful attention to the water quality.


I thought that too, Eric. But, my tests didn't reveal any problems. No Nitrite or Ammonia - and nitrate <5ppm :icon_conf . And I was doing daily water changes. So, go figure... I really don't know what the problem was, but what I do know is that the planted tank remedied the problem. Haven't lost one since.

The rams are still in their 10gal and doing well.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Boy, it would break my heart to say good bye to those little ones after rearing them up! :icon_frow
> Mike


Well after two more weeks he'll have more fry to rear! :wink: It's not like he's having to give up kittens.. :icon_frow 

Maybe the 10g was simply too crowded, did you check the oxygen levels?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I don't have a DO meter . How do you check the O2 level? I have Penguin 125's on both 10 gals. Those things cause all kinds of agitation, so I don't know how the O2 could have been low.

Speaking of two more weeks...the parents layed another clutch a few days ago. They eggs are just turning into the 'wigglers' this morning. Looks to be a few more eggs than the original bunch - about 150 or so.

The long-term plan is to sell these little buggers long enough to fund a 75gal planted tank for my dining room. I will only keep a maintenance crew in this tank, and use it to rear baby angels and rams. My wife, surprisingly, is in favor of this idea.....great conversation centerpiece, I suppose.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

But remeber with 100 dime-size fry in a 10g there has to be a silent killer other than ammonia and nitrite. Next time you raise Angel fry check the oxygen levels using the Tetra O2 test(http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=30732;category_id=3239), and you should really buy an air pump to increase oxygen...are you willing to try it out? :wink:


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

theres no need for a O2 test kit....just keep the surface aggration up and you'll be fine...or just stick some plants in there


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

No, I think Raul might be on to something. Recently, my rams have started to have labored breathing as well. A few even got ich, and there is NO nitrite or ammonia. To cure the ich, I cut out the filtration (so I don't kill the bacteria), and started up an airstone. Since then, the breating has slowed. Was it the cure, or was it the O2, or did low O2 cause the stress that created the ich?

When the ich treatment is done, and I start up the filter again, I intend to let the bubbler run and see if it helps.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Back from vacation and I have some bad news. While I was gone, the rams had an ich outbreak and I lost every darn one of them. My mother, who was nice enough to stop by daily to feed everyone, felt terrible. That's the way it goes though. You realize just how much you need to have a trained eye for this hobby. I don't think I'm going to try to raise rams again until I have a more complete [breeding] setup. 

The good news is that the angels are fine, and just about ready to go to 'market' :tongue: . They can tear through a brine shrimp cube in seconds. 

Taking the good with the bad is par for the course. We'll get em next time coach .


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

That's an awesome photo Uni. Never seen something like that. The Neons look like killer whales until you realize how small the angels are. Great shot!


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## badmatt (Nov 19, 2003)

maybe i shoudl start breeding angels again


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

Poor little neons. They should be making use of their size advantage while they have a chance!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

:hihi: Those are 1+ inch cardinals. They will be able to hold their own roud: .


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

it is an odd-photography trick: the fish all look huge until you see them next to something else to give perspective. its as if you know how big they should be...but you can't quite work it out...


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Here's another shot taken at the same time. Not as fun, but gives you a better perspective. The rams are almost 2 inches, the cardinals, rasboras, and rainbows are about an inch.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

I really like WP's comment on them looking like killer whales. The high backs and upright dorsals does remind me of orcas. Same thing applies in the latest picture. That's one robust looking neon in the foreground, even making those threadfin rainbows look like dwarfs.


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

Kris said:


> it is an odd-photography trick: the fish all look huge until you see them next to something else to give perspective. its as if you know how big they should be...but you can't quite work it out...


It's the angels that are throwing me. I look at them and all I can see are full grown angels and _humongous_ cardinal tetras!


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

haha at first my thought was, how big is that tank to hold that many adult angels!!! Then my eye wonders and I see that killer whale of a Cardinal tetra, I bout fail out of my chair, untill I relized that the angels are just fry! What a rush haha


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*An end and a beginning...*

Well,

They're all gone. All but a few of the best, that is . Here are a couple of the keepers. The top one represents what about 1/2 of them look like, the other half were much darker (80% black).

....and then there was this bottom guy roud: 




















A disease outbreak hit the tank housing the parents. I lost every fish, except the good old female (strange, how some fish are simply "bullet-proof"). She has been quarantined in one of the 10 gals for the past few weeks. Her mate almost pulled through, and was showing signs of improvement. Then, one day, he ate before I went to work, and was gone by the time I got home .

She's back to her old self now, but without a mate. But he's on the way (shown below). I grabbed him off aquabid before it crashed. Owner says he's a proven male who has raised his own. According to the genetic charts, these two will produce 25% silver, 50% ghost (what they are), and 25% gold. That will be fun.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

OMG...I've seen that male on aquabid before. Beautiful looking angel and it'll be interesting to see the frys from the pairing (I'm partial to silvers myself  ).


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Nice looking male you've got there uni, sorry about what happened to your other males. Hopefully this one will give you positive results. Good luck!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Many Changes*

Following the death of my old male, I went to aquabid, looking for a replacement. This guy was overnighted about 1000 miles, and did not look very good when he arrived. He was disoriented, sluggish, had some fin rot, and his swimming was labored, to say the least.










But 24 hours later, he had pulled through. Another 24 hours and the fungus was gone from his fins. I knew he looked tough; that's why I had to have him.










Meanwhile, in the adjacent 10 gal, the female was up to her old routine :icon_roll .










I decided that a 10 gal was not going to be a large enough breeder tank for these two (as they are quite large, even for angels), so I went and grabbed a 20g long to fit beneath the 30g grow-out tank.










After a week, I introduced them to this tank and they immediately started fighting  . They really were going at it. Locking lips and shoving each other around; taking shots at one another continuously. I don't have any photos of this battle because I was too preoccupied making sure that one of them didn't gain the upper hand. They were both so vicious, yet evenly matched, that if one of them would have got the other running, it would have all been over quickly.

So, you can imagine how elated I was when after 3 hours of sparring, they started to fight less....and then even tolerate one another.....and then start cleaning the spawning slate together  :bounce: !!!










The female's "schedule" will have her laying eggs this weekend. I'm going to let them raise the eggs themselves. Both parents are proven to raise fry, so I'm optismistic. But, more importantly, I want them to bond.

In other news, my LFS tore down their display tank and gave me a [smaller] breeding pair of gold angels. They are no where near as big as the other pair, so they may get by in a 10 gal for now. But this is by no means and ideal setup, so I may be looking to aquabid to find them another home soon. First I need to make sure that the silver angels successfully spawn .










Oh yeah, and the rams are making babies again, now that all the angel fry are out of their tank. No where to raise em right now though.










Update to come this weekend if any spawning takes place....


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Woah! That's awesome news uni! It seems incredible they could swing their behavior like that. Good luck!


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## ThomE (Aug 26, 2004)

Damn Unirdna,

What did you put in that water? :wink: 

Nice pics


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## wonder woman (Oct 30, 2003)

Uni-
All of us angel keepers are green with envy- your success makes me want to keep trying! I've got a pair who've spawned 4 times, but I haven't had luck with the wigglers yet. I'm more prepared now, so maybe next time around...
Please keep up posting the "Angels' story"!


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

I guess its an understatement to say that yer gonna have yer hands full.... :wink:Hope it works out..If you get some fry, I will buy some from ya! I am a patient man!


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

I see you added an air pump. But does it provide oxygen to the tank or only the bio-sponge, or both? I hope it works out for you that you don't lose anymore fry. roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*when it rains....*

Raul, The O2 goes to the tank. The up-rushing bubbles create a vaccuum in the sponge, which pulls water through it (and out the top of the bubble tube).

So, they both lay eggs withing a day of each other. As I said before, I'm letting both pair raise em. The only problem is that the N-cyle is not yet fully established in these tanks. Although no ammonia is present, the tanks accumulate about .25ppm of Nitrite ever couple days. I could, of course, take care of this using water changes, but I fear this may be hard on the eggs. Can anyone recommend a product that will jump start the NO2 - NO3 conversion? 

May lose these batches....

















:icon_frow


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

If you can find it get BIO-Spira, but there's also Stability. I've asked Seachem about it and they gave me a good explanation regarding how it works.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

or maybe a media bag packed with mulm from another established tank wrapped in floss and stuffed in cannister.. :icon_idea


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

Those golden angels look just like mine, the same size and all... im happy for you, and i was hoping someday I could do the same with my angels... :icon_frow


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*whole lotta wigglers*

Still doin o.k. No fungicides, no chemicals....I love parental care roud: . They move the wigglers to a new location every 12 hours or so - possibly to avoid infection??


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

wow... that is awesome. I just saw one of my angels for the first time in 3 days, it looks like they're getting better!!!! 

i hope they wont end up like your old male though... :icon_frow 

wish me luck with keeping them alive, or at least happy...


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*freeswimming*

Nervously, went out of town for the weekend. Decided NOT to have anyone come and feed the parentals since I was concerned about water conditions (eg overfeeding). 

I was pleased to see freeswimming fry. Looks like the silvers have about 100 and the golds around 200 (surprising, since the silver female dwarfs the gold female). Man am I gonna have my hands full. I've never culled either of my earlier hatches - may have to on this one.

Gold female and 9 day fry:









Silver pair (female left - male right) and 8 day old fry.


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## m3th0d (Jun 27, 2004)

Aww, I want some!


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## Aftica (Nov 26, 2003)

Very Green with ENVY!!!

Congrats Pappa Unirdna!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Two weeks*

This being my first attempt at allowing parent-raising, I was cautious. Most experiences I've read say that parents will continue to lay eggs, even while there are fry swimming about. This applied to the silver angels. "mom" lost interest in the fry, and started cleaning the slate. At the same time, "dad" was still preoccupied with guarding the fry. This created havoc. Lucky I caught the quarrel in time, or they would have torn each other apart (it only took them 10 minutes to fray the heck out of one another's fins). So, I took the fry out and put them in a 10 gal. Within seconds (I mean that - seconds), the parents stopped fighting, and the male joined the female in cleaning the spawning slate. They have since spawned again.

Here are a couple photos: There are dark fry and light ones.



















The golds, on the other hand, have not spawned a second time. They are still in 'agreement' re: the best reproduction strategy. It turned out that each of the parents carry an abino gene; so 1/4 of the fry were albino. Yes, I said "were" albino. They turned out to be very delicate, and never ate. Online sources say that the first week is pretty tough for 'binos. They were all gone within days. They still have 100+ golds that are live and well.

Here's an albino:










And here's a shot of the "Gold Family":


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Too cool. Great shots and great info. Thanks!!


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## Ahkuma (Dec 5, 2004)

I love this thread, extremely interesting.


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Looks good, I love the gold pair!!! I can't wait to get a silver or gold angel pair.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*A few changes*

The silvers are having marriage problems. When the kids are out of the house, they fight like dogs. So, they had to be separated - each moved to its own 10 gal. I'll let them get back together when I see the females ovipositor. Their first batch of fry is in the 30 gal growout; and are growing much more slowly than the gold fry.

So, the golden gold family has been relocated. I worried that the move might change the parents' behavior, but they are solid as ever. I've never seen a better pair - how lucky I was to stumble into them. 

3.5 weeks - check out those derived traits and the gas bladder roud: 










Here's a shot of the goldens in their new home (courtesy of the evicted silvers)


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Nice angels! roud: 

Pitty the silvers have gone anti-family.. Oh well they might sort it out..


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

unirdna said:


> "mom" lost interest in the fry, and started cleaning the slate. At the same time, "dad" was still preoccupied with guarding the fry. This created havoc.


Can you imagine the havoc if human's acted this way on a frequent basis?


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## wonder woman (Oct 30, 2003)

Forgive me for a gushy, girly moment, but watching baby angels develop is one of the cutest things ever! (Well, besides my baby red-eared slider!)
Please keep up those posts and pics, Uni- this will be a great resource for those of us who someday hope to be raising our own angel families.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Time to move on*

Fry are ready for the grow-out tank. They could last longer in the pictured 20L, but I want the parents to get to layin again. Staggering batches by about 1.5 months seems to give me the most bang for the buck. Originally, I was planning to sell this gold pair. No way I could part with them now. They are simply the best parents I've ever seen. I can only hope that this is caused by "nature" instead of "nurture"; then the fry would be a sure thing.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Such cute little fellas. Way to go! You should be a proud parent yourself!


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## Blade (Jul 27, 2004)

I had a pair of Koi Angels that raised their own offspring. They were great every time.


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

looking great. My second angel died today, it was a great welcoming present. :icon_frow It made it through the entire week of me being in Florida... i guess it wanted to see me again. :icon_frow


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

What do you feed the fry?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*5 weeks*

Right after hatching, the fry are fed newly hatched brine shrimp. I then tried (unsuccessfully) to ween them to cyclop-eeze. It frustrates me that they won't eat this stuff. Reef owners have sworn by it for years, and it's packed with nutrition. Strangely, even when the fry are plenty large enough to eat it, they still prefer frozen brine shrimp and blood worms, which are much larger than cyclopeeze. What makes it worse is the $15 I spent on (well, I used store credit, but it doesn't make it much easier) on 3 oz of the stuff. 

Oh well, they are alive and growing; so I shouldn't complain. Anyone in Madison need some cyclopeeze ? If not, my rasboras seem to love the stuff.


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## snowman (Mar 17, 2005)

Any updated pictures of the baby rams...probably not so baby anymore! This thread is cool first time I've seen it!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Glad you like the thread, snowman.

Either I need to do more research on rams, or they simply aren't as profitable as angels. If you think about it, angels are sold as juveniles, and ram are adults. A couple folks on the forum have real skills breeding rams, but not me :icon_conf 

So what became of mine? Many suddenly died when their water conditions took a turn. I transfered them to another tank where I managed to keep about 20 or so. All but a couple have since been transfered to a buddy's 75g planted, and are all doing well. But, they grow so sloooowwwly. Here's a photo of one of those rams compared to an angelfish. The ram is a few days older, and the angel is further back in the photo. :icon_roll


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

uni, how fast do baby angels grow? I just got 3 beautiful silver/ghost/striped (mixed; silver base body, with 2 black vertical stripes, and a dusky darkish top/bottom/fins.) THey are awesome.

The one small issue is that they are small. About 1 inch long and tall, including fins and everything. How long will it take till they double in size, and how long until they become adults? Breeding them would make awesome and expensive offspring. :tongue:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks,

Angels become sexually mature anywhere from 6-12 months. Many factors come into play: quality of food and water, tank size and density, genetics...etc. 

Trying some new ideas. I'm introducing an overflow to the 30g planted tank, and will be draining it to the 20 long. The plants (and algae) in the 30gal growout tank are sucking up Nitrogen faster than 150 worth of angel fry poop can supply; so I'm hoping it can keep up with the waste of the parents as well. This also helps to alleviate a couple problems. 1. The surface film on the 30g come back to quickly that using "the beer bottle method" is futile. I need constant skimming, and the overflow will do this. 2. The fry will be hatched and grown in the exact same water as the growout tank, so they will experience little to no shock when they are transplanted.

Here's the overflow:









Additionally, the HOT mag will be retired. Too bad really - after all that cutting and pasting I did making the reactor. But this new system will work out even better. The overflow will drain into the left side of the tank. A maxijet (attached to a sponge filter) will power the water through a quick-n-dirty reactor and Turbotwist UV sterlizer on its way back to the 30g.

Here's the reactor:









I also hope to keep both pair of angels in the 20g with the aid of a tank divider. The holes in the divider are small, but I don't know if they are small enough to keep fry from crossing over. Probably setting myself up for disappointment on this one, but it's worth a try.










And what would an update be without a couple photos of the fry.


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

you're probably setting yourself up for a problem. 2 pairs of angels with < 10 gallons to a pair is not a good idea. What ever happened to the silvers? Did they stop their agressive antics? I saw that overflow a few days ago in a magazine, cant remember which one... tell me how it works for you, I want to try it too. 

Babies looking great. roud:


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## badmatt (Nov 19, 2003)

yeh that divider works good. i used a few when i was breeding angels


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Badmatt,
Thanks for the input roud: .

Thanks,
The silvers are in a 10g, working out their differences. They go through good days and bad, but I _make_ them work it out. I think the female is going dry (she's not a spring chicken anymore). She used to lay 500 eggs at a time, and now she barely squeezes out 100. That's very low for such a large, well-fed angel. I'm starting to look for a new mate for him. He has champion genes (ideal body shape for an angel) and great parenting skills. It's his ding-bat girlfriend that needs "updating" .


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## conduct (Mar 25, 2005)

I have been in aquatics for about 16 years now and Unirdna this is the best post I have ever seen in documentation. Keep up the good work I look forward to more updates.


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

well, dont be too hard on his girl. shes been through alot. :wink: 

what would happen if you cross bred the gold and silvers? probably bad things... but still, the babies would surely look neat.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

conduct said:


> I have been in aquatics for about 16 years now and Unirdna this is the best post I have ever seen in documentation. Keep up the good work I look forward to more updates.


Wow, that's quite a compliment, conduct. Attaboys always make ya feel good roud: . If you keep viewin, I'll keep postin.



Thanks said:


> well, dont be too hard on his girl. shes been through alot. :wink:
> what would happen if you cross bred the gold and silvers? probably bad things... but still, the babies would surely look neat.


Oh, she won't get flushed or clove oiled . She just may need to retire to a display tank. As for Gold X Silvers, what kind of "bad things" do you think would happen :hihi: ? I very definitely know what would happen...you would get all ghost fry. Silvers have no stripeless genes. Ghosts have one stripless gene (from one parent). Golds have two stripeless genes (one from each parent). 

*edit: I realized that I frequently refer to my 2nd pair as "silvers". Truth is, they are ghosts. Hope I didn't create too much confusion. So crossing a gold with a ghost would give you 1/2 ghost fry and 1/2 gold. 

Here's a simple chart.

____________Silver___________Ghost_______________Gold
Silver ______100% S______50% S; 50% GH_________ 100% GH

Ghost____50% S; 50% GH__25% S; 50% GH; 25% GO__50% GH; 50% GO

Gold_______100% GH_______50% GH; 50% GO_______100% GO


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Nice, unirdna did you get my pm?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

24 hours later (ugh) - a couple gallons of water on the floor (oh, it's possible for an overflow siphon to break, glad I figured that out) - broken aquarium glass hood (watch where you step; better yet, don't put the hood down in the middle of the floor next time) - 3 different flow plans - and numerous agonizing leaks to patch and seal....

....It...is....done.

If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer, but I am just too darn exhausted right now to give every detail of the ordeal  .

A few photos:

CPR Overflow (pretty piece of equipment, btw)










Bottom tank (shows overflow tube on left; maxijet 600 with sponge filter on the right - powers through the CO2 reactor and TT 3X back to the 30g - originally had a maxi 1000, but it produced too much current).










Here's the whole shebang. Performance updates to follow in the next couple days.


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## david (Mar 27, 2005)

i have a question i have 1 adult angel and 3 angels working there way up there...how do you tell the males from the females? do you have to wait till they start breeding? i also have a pair of graumies who breed often and the fry make wonderful food for the angels


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## depthC (Oct 9, 2003)

Thats a great setup. Great job and good luck with your future angel spawns roud: .

Andrew


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

david said:


> i have a question i have 1 adult angel and 3 angels working there way up there...how do you tell the males from the females? do you have to wait till they start breeding? i also have a pair of graumies who breed often and the fry make wonderful food for the angels


David,
There really aren't any definitive traits for sexing angels, especially before they become sexually mature. In some varieties, males get a hump on their heads once they become mature. This was the case for a marble male of mine, but not so much for my ghost and gold males. You're doing the right thing; buy a few and wait until they pair off. 

Here's a closeup of my gold pair. Nothing 100% as far as I can see.


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## ScottyDont (Mar 9, 2005)

yeah this thread make me clean out my community tank fo tetras and go buy 6 angels, waiting for them to pair off, only want one pair...probly sell the other 4


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## cprroy73 (Nov 10, 2004)

Nice setup, looks like your algae prob. is going away. Do they give you a good deal at the lfs on your returns? Cash or trade.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I was wondering about how often CPRs break siphon. I get a little worried about something simple like a gravity siphon that needs and electronic device... But that is niether here nor there. 

I am not sure where your set up is or how sensitive to noise you are but I would recommend fitting a durso/stockman standpipe.

http://www.dursostandpipes.com/

As there is a dramatic reduction in noise, the water level is higher in the second side of the overflow to reduce turbulence, and you can pull the tube to "flush" bubbles out or extra food. I do not run a prefilter on mine so everything ends up in the bottom tank. 

Great thread!




unirdna said:


> 24 hours later (ugh) - a couple gallons of water on the floor (oh, it's possible for an overflow siphon to break, glad I figured that out) - broken aquarium glass hood (watch where you step; better yet, don't put the hood down in the middle of the floor next time) - 3 different flow plans - and numerous agonizing leaks to patch and seal....
> 
> .
> CPR Overflow (pretty piece of equipment, btw)


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

cprroy,

At first, the area LFS's would only give me credit. After selling a few hundred of my angels (and putting a whole lot of profit in their registers), they have all agreed to give me cash. I usually ask 30% of what they sell them for. Some try to low-ball me because they think they are doing me a favor. If they were the only store, they would be, but I have many "clients", so I take my fish to honest dealers who care about good relationships as much as the $$$.

Blueram,

A bit on the CPR overflow...

It was breaking siphon, not because of a mechanical flaw, but because I kept making bonehead mistakes. I presume that the "electronic device" you are referring to is the mini-water pump that CPR (and Marine Depot) recommends you use with it. This being my first overflow, I can't speak from experience... But, the manufacturers say that some overflows used to collect bubbles in the top of the siphon. Eventually, if enough gas collected, the siphon could break - creating a major mess when the entire sump dumps into your tank, of course. By placing an air outlet on top of that siphon loop, you can run a pump that continually sucks out any collected air (and continuously sucks out a small amount of water.

I think it's good design, but I think I have a better way . I run a line from the CPR to my lower tank. Since there is about 3 feet of head, the siphon is stronger, and has enough suction to remove any bubbles. I know that air will break a siphon, but the small amount that gets sucked up isn't nearly enough to stop the airline siphon. So, essentially, I have a siphon on a siphon .

As for noise, it is dead silent. Mind you, I run less than 100gph, so that might cut back on any potential gurgling. Even so, the CPR comes with a small insertion tube that goes down the exhaust, and allows air to easily escape (reducing gurgling). The flow is so smooth, that there is absolutely no turbulence or splashing noise. Even the flow from the drain is smooth, and runs along the outside edge of the 1" tube. It creates some bubbles when it hits the water level in the other tank, but this interaction takes place in the tube, so it makes no noise. On another note, because all the surface interaction takes place inside the tube (and because the overflow has a lid), gas exchange is limited, so I don't lose any appreciable CO2. If it weren't for the powerhead in the lower tank, the system would be completely silent. By the way, that link you gave didn't work, but I ran a google search on durastands. I can't tell where/how you would use one :icon_conf. Maybe my search yielded the wrong device.

The prefilter outlet is a very simple, yet excellent design. The foam that fits around the outlet is a bit lower than the outlet tower, and it fits loosely as well. Because we aquarium people are used to "snug" fits, the loose fit might seem sloppy. But, should the prefilter become clogged, the water can easily flow over and down to the outlet.

Here's a more detailed photo, illustrating the various parts.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Insightful post unirdna. My comments were not intended as criticism as it would appear you picked out a system that works exactly as you would like it to so please do not take my post as anything other than another set of opinions.

Sorry for the dead link but the item you are looking for is the "durso standpipe" In particular the modified stockman (I cannot link directly to the picture on durso's site). The navigation is under "popular modifications" 

The link is www.dursostandpipes.com in all lowercase.

But it sounds like the supplied kit is working for you and you are not pushing maximum flow rates. 

As to the use of the small pump or the "second siphon" I can't comment. The importaint thing is that the siphon starts instantly when power is restored. There is a small chance that you many be able to pull in air under where the black part ends with your system. I am not sure if this would happen but it might be worth testing.

My limited understanding is that due to the increased area which leads to reduced speed, the water is not moving fast enough to clear bubbles with your box. I know when it is time to clean my filter when I do get bubbles accumulating in my U tube. 

With this style of overflow you are likely to pull leaves and food into the prefilter (grid and sponge). Your angels might be quick about getting the food but be prepared for some accumulation on the sponge part. I find that a snail generally comes along in my box to tank care of it though.

But your post as to the performance of the CPR unit greatly increases my understanding so I thank you. It looks like the system does exactly what you need roud:


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## bred (Oct 30, 2004)

thanks for the detailed posts and pics, unirdna! i am contemplating putting a CPR overflow on my tank also.

did you have to muck about with the height of the overflow box for very long before it matched the flow rate of the return powerhead? is there a substantial margin of safety in the unlikely event that the powerhead prefilter becomes significantly clogged? and finally, what exactly is the sound you're getting from the powerhead below? 

oops, one more question. 
what other filtration are you using on this tank and where is it feeding from/to? 

thanks again!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> please do not take my post as anything other than another set of opinions.


No way I took it like than . In fact, I owe you bigtime for pointing out the potential flaw in my 2nd siphon system. If the pump stops for more than 1/2 hour, the siphon portion of the overflow box gets drained to the point where it breaks! Nice catch - I completely missed it :icon_redf , as I had only done short power-outage "tests", and never let enough time go by to show this flaw. I may get that pump, but for now, I think I'm better off just stopping-up that gas outlet all-together. I'm not so sure bubbles are a major issue yet anyway.

Your understanding of why bubbles aren't so easily pushed out is dead on. The increase size of the siphon allows for more flow, and smoother flow...but at the cost of less "suction" to remove those bubbles. 

...and I like the snail idea, too roud: 

Bred, 

The sound I'm getting from the powerhead is nothing more than the faint buzz they all give off. Not even audible from a few feet away. I was just trying to illustrate how quiet this system really is.

The only mechanical filtration I have on the system is the large sponge filter attached to the powerhead in the lower tank. You can see a photo on pg 7.

The height adjusters have nothing to do with the speed of the outflow. They allow you to adjust the water level in the tank. The beauty of the overflow design is that it drains your tank as fast as water is being introduced. It automatically matches the speed. My overflow was designed to drain water as fast as 300gph. This means that it can handle an inflow as great as 300gph, but can also handle any slower speed as well. If you have a good understanding of how a siphon works, take a detailed look at an overflow box and you'll understand how this can work. Actually, a couple quick minutes on paint might help to clarify.... The secret is in the "W" shape. That design is what keeps the siphon from breaking if the pump should stop - and allow water to drain again when the pump comes back on. With a regular siphon, the water would drain out of the top tank until it reached the inlet; then, air would break the siphon. Now, when the power comes back on, your siphon is gone and the tank overflows. The "W" shape also allows for the overflow to drain the water at the same speed it enters the tank. With the "regular" siphon, you would be forced to try and balance the inflow with the outflow. Over time, this could never work. One would surely get ahead of the other.


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## bred (Oct 30, 2004)

I did figure how the W shape prevents siphon break, but your explanation has made everything perfectly clear with respect to flow rate. Thanks!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

A few updated photos.

The gold parents are working on their next clutch. Not so many this time...maybe 30-40. Half the eggs were wiped by fungus. I think it was because my nitrate got a bit high during that time - but, not sure.










You can now see the difference between the different kinds of fry that the Ghost angels produce. Golds (as seen in the 30 gal), and silvers and ghosts too. I love it when parents produce multiple kinds of fry; this makes the golds kind of "boring", as they only produce gold fry (they also each carry an albino gene, but that does me know good, since all of the albino fry die within a day :icon_conf ) .

Silver









Ghost - this is a particularly dark one, some are lighter (with little to no black markings)









And here's a shot of the whole setup. The algae is starting to give way in the 30g, and the sag is spreading. I've also put a couple vals in the tank because the sag was clearly not going to reach for the lights.










Another few weeks and some of the larger golds will be ready for adoption.

One lesson I did learn this time around was NOT to put the fry into the planted tank too soon. During that tender age when their pelvic (ventral) fins are developing, they can be susceptible to bacteria. Consequently, on a few, those fins are underdeveloped. Time will tell if they grow out normally.


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## Beta-5 (Apr 15, 2005)

Wow. Just, wow.


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## Mobern (Mar 19, 2004)

Now I want angels!!!

What a fun thread! I love it!

More pictures and updates please!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Just a new photo to keep my thread current...

Addition of a few stem plants has put the hurt on the algae. Am I a bad guy for imagining the stuff suffering ? 

Little golds are just about ready to head off to the pet store.


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## GTApuffgal (Feb 7, 2005)

That is just a beautiful sight! 

And no, you're not a bad guy for having evil thoughts about algae...


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Bit crowded.. and I personally dont like floating plants.. the light they reflect annoys me..
I can see a mini ram... roud: Wish my ram fry would survive......

Still, nice tank!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Lorenceo said:


> I can see a mini ram... roud:


Whoa! That's some eye you got there. Are you a professional assassin ?

Yeah, when the stems hit the surface they bounce the light around a bit, but they are worth the trade off. With their help, this tank has a grip on the fishload. 200+ angelfish between the top and bottom tanks, as well as a full-sized breeding pair.....and the NO3 lowers by 5ppm every few days.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

That is some good eye. I had to do a double take on the picture before I spotted it. 

Thanks for the update. Love the progress that you're making with the species. Looking forward to the day when I'm in your shoes with this gang of mine.


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

No, not an assasin... It just sticks out to me...
I see your point on the stems..

You gonna update youre 46g thread? I would like to see how that is doing...roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*New Pair*

Remember these guys? They were eggs in October. Less than 7 months later, they are making eggs of their own roud: . That's right - the first of my two new pair have spawned. And, as usual, they have neglected the nice spawning slate I've made for them, and decided on the heater :icon_roll . I have no intentions of removing their spawn. We'll see how they do - and I promise to tell you even if they eat them the second after I post this .

Oct 21, 2004 - two of those eggs are these parents 









May 9, 2005


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## GTApuffgal (Feb 7, 2005)

How cool is THAT!?!?!?!?!!!!! Congratulations on the new grandeggs!


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

ewwwww, inbreeding. j/k....kinda

wonderful thread, i actually have some fry of my own, 6 days old. waiting for some swiming action.


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Nice pair uni, those eggs look wonderful =)


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

timr said:


> ewwwww, inbreeding. j/k....kinda


  That's an anthropocentric hurdle that's tough to get over for some. It's quite commonplace (and rarely genetically detrimental) in fish breeding.

Further reading  http://www.angelsplus.com/tip1.htm


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

i don't care what you say it's still nasty :tongue:


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

I dont like the idea either... however my kribs do it, and their offspring have been fine.. and I'm not even going to start on the guppies..


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

How about an update? 

Some changes:

Replace Maxijet 1200 powerhead with a supreme magdrive 500 pump. I was asking a little too much from a powerhead. Pump through 6 feet of tubing, 3 feet of head, a UV sterilizer, and a reactor. The powerhead was rated at 295 gph, but only managed about 12. The new pump is rated 500gph, and (by my quick estimate) was pumping about 300gph. I actually had to slow it down a bit with a ball valve. It's a beast.

I read in a plant guide (can't remember which one) that sag and vals don't "get along" beneath the substrate. Alleopathy - chemical warfare. So far, I'm not seeing this. Anyone else ever hear this? Maybe my memory isn't serving me .










I've sold off 70-80% of the last batch of fry. There are still a few small (but very healthy) fry still growing. A few of them suffered bacterial damage when they were tiny, and consequently have bent fins (and, consequently need to be culled). The really tiny golds you see are only 1.5 months old. They are from a failed batch of eggs; there were a dozen survivors total. I'm going to keep 5 angels for new breeding stock. I hope that one of the silvers pairs off with the gold. The 5 I'm keeping are amazing fish. Four months old and look at the size of these guys! The gold is already larger than his mother, and is on track to pass up dad in a matter of weeks.




























Finally, I'm a bit late getting started this time, but here is the next crop (12 days old).


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Wonderful angelfish Ted, that grass tank has comes a long ways! I remember that it was infested with lots of algae, is it taken care of now?


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Starting to look very overgrown..
Never heard of this chemical warfare before...
I have twisted vals growing in the middle of a large patch of dwarf sag... The val popped up there itself from a nearby parent plant, and they are both fine.
I see a guppy in there :tongue: 
Nice angels as always roud: 
Any updates on your 46g? :icon_bigg


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Yeah John, the algae is kaput. Nutrients are plenty high (PO4=1ppm, NO3=30ppm) and it doesn't grow anywhere. Don't even need to scrape the glass. I forgot to mention my "learning experience".... I almost killed off all the plants in the tank. Was mixing 1/2 tap to 1/2 RO. Didn't realize that the tap, which came from the bathtub, was from the water softener. GH was 0-1 deg (and the water was plenty salty) for nearly a month. Plants were yellowing, stunted. I only realized my mistake a couple weeks ago, and already it looks like a new tank. KH = 10 deg. GH = 10 deg. pH = 7.0-7.2

Lorenceo, what do you do for a living? Professional birdwatcher? Red-shift astrophysicist? . That is some eagle-eye. Yep, there are two, males guppies in that 30 gal. They think they are in heaven. And yeah, it's overgrown alright . Because I have not pruned anything since I set it up in January (hehe). I don't plan to prune it until the shading creates problems. Eventually, I'll probably turn this into a display tank, but for now, I want to leave it as a grow out. Similar to what most college freshman men do with their hair - you gotta do it once.

The 46 gal will be updated soon. Need to clean up that javafern (it's bigger than a pumpkin)


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Im still at school...:icon_redf Only 14...
lmao at the pumkin sized java fern mass..:hihi:


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## skabooya (Apr 15, 2005)

WOW! i just read the whole thing.this thread is awsome... makes me want to try and breed fish again. (i stopped because a heater broke and cooked over 300 babies). Good luck with your little ones.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Consolidation*

My wife's "new carpet" project forced me to temporarily relocate my tanks to the bathroom...so when I put them back, I used the opportunity to clean things up a bit. Now I have my corner of fish (in my computer room).

There is a new pair quarantined off on the right side of the 20g. They just layed their first batch of eggs. With all the angels I've been taking to the LFS, I almost have enough store credit saved up to get a 37g [almost] cube Oceanic tank with all the fixins. That tank will be setup in the corner of my sunroom (same room as the 46g bowfront), and will get 4-8 (depending on season) hours of direct sunlight each day. It will be an open-air tank, Amano style, with no lighting. If the sunlight thing doesn't work out, I'll throw a T5 over the top.

Flash









No Flash


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Looks nice, I'm going to have to give you some big props on that grass tank of yours. I have seen the begining, and what it has gone through until now. You did a great job killing the algae, and making your tank look green and healthy, good job


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks John,

That tank is also a big $$ maker. I harvest out vals and sag every time I take angels to the LFS. You can't tell from the photos, but there actually is some open space in that tank. Looks great with a school of whiteclouds zipping in and out of the plants.


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

The effort that you put in the tank, will soon later treat you. You deserve to make the money from the plants and angels that you put effort in to taking care for.


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

I love that grass tank, i tip my hat to you, i don't know how you raise so many angels in so few tanks.


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

unirdna said:


> Thanks John,
> 
> That tank is also a big $$ maker. I harvest out vals and sag every time I take angels to the LFS. You can't tell from the photos, but there actually is some open space in that tank. Looks great with a school of whiteclouds zipping in and out of the plants.


always nice to have extra $$ to support the hobby.


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## kunerd (Jul 19, 2005)

Wow... :icon_bigg I work graveyard shift and reading your whole thread ate up about 2hrs of my night. So sad to get to the end just like a good book that you want more and more... Gonna head home and dream of angels floating around in grassy clouds roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Best of both worlds*

It was inevitable. I simply couldn't grow plants just for the sake of "filtering" water for my angelfish. I want both a display tank, and a means of keeping hundred of angelfish alive and well. The solution: a bit of aqauscaping (and I mean A BIT), and the introduction of another nutrient pig - pearlgrass.

I transplanted and trimmed off all vals and sag up front. The only plant I actually removed from the tank was this Giant Val that somehow deceived me in to thinking it was a V. americana when I planted it.










Most of the vals were 2-3 times longer than the height of the tank, so I gave them all a haircut. I've found that if you trim them 2-3 inches above the water line, they will not have such a "cut" look to them. Rather, they appear very much the same as they did before the cut. IMO, vals look shabby if they are trimmed below the surface of the water. Makes the tank look like it's in pain.

Here are the trimmings. That was a lot of biomass removed.










And finally, here's a look at the result. I debated a few different forground species, and decided on pearlgrass for a few reasons. 

- it adds contrast to all the vertical growth.
- it is a nitrogen eating machine
- its fast growth will help to keep the vals and sag at bay
- shrimp seem to love the stuff (amanos are in the tank, cherries on the horizon)



















I also moved the other set of parents to the lower ten gallon. Since both pairs parent raise their fry, I simply let the fry stay with their folks until they are large enough to join the 20g.



















Comments and suggestions are always welcome roud:

Ted


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

The tank is gorgeous with all the Vals...I always loved them in a tank. It also seems you are VERY successfully at getting a good number of fry to survive... the LFS's must love to see you coming. 
The dedication to the angels shows...great job roud:


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Love the scape of the grass tank, can't believe how much has grown in that tank. Great angels as well, you've been doing a great job raising every spawn.


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## dudleystinks (Apr 9, 2005)

love the tank i also love vals and was planning on doing something similar to yours looks like you beat me to it very nice indeed roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Forgot to post this photo. My wife can't look at it without getting the eebie-jeebies


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

That val is huge! :icon_eek: 
Very cool pic of the shrimp shell thingy roud: 
I want to start breeding angels now.. Too bad there isn't really a demand for them here.. and the fact I have no free space for a breeding setup.. :icon_redf 
Nothing to spot as far as I can see, although I can see a reflection of your camera's lens in the shrimp pic


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## Sweet Violet (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm impressed~! Love the setup~!


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

I have just read through entire thread :drool: Congratulations on your success at the angels and their breedings! Also brings home the point of how algae growth is no match for healthy growing plants. Keep up the good work! roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*New shrimp*

Big thanks to Jon (rupey) for making the trip all the way to Madison to trade me some cherries for some javas. They are sooo much fun. They get the whole 30g grass tank to make babies without the threat of predators. I can't wait until they get to it.


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## StUk_In_AfRiKa (Jan 30, 2005)

Never thought I'd say this but... that shrimp is adorable.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Great photo !


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

My tank is stocked with like 15 or more of these gorgeous shrimps, the good thing is they have the whole tank to themselves along w/ 2 otos but thats about it.


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## Rupey (Nov 16, 2002)

I'm glad your enjoying the shrimp! It was really great meeting you and seeing your tanks in person. Very nice setup you have there! Just thought I'd share a picture or two of what those shrimp will look like when the grow up. Heres a couple of mine in my 75 gallon.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Can't wait until they take on that kind of color, Jon. In the meantime, it appears that the first babies are on the way .

Ted


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Nice shot!


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## PinkRasbora (Jan 22, 2005)

Like man that trim job was crazy! I can't imagine how long it took to trim all that! Nice work though, the rescape is really coming along. And boy do you have the best looking angelfish ever! roud:


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

love how the tank full of vals looks...


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Val removal project*

Way back when I started this tank in Jan, I never really wanted vals, I wanted a tank full of high-growing Sag subulata. That didn't pan out because hair algae was smothering the sag. So, I employed Valisneria americana to balance things out. The two grew harmoniously (contradicting much of what I've read) for 6-7 months, and now that the sag seems to have a grip, it's time for the vals to go. I just hope there are enough plants left in the tank to stave off the algae.

Before:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/2005-09-07.jpg









After:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/2005-09-15Centerview.jpg









Removed Vals:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/removedvals.jpg


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Additionally, I received 10-12 splendiferous endler guppies from Bill (bharada). They all arrived in perfect condition (and very hungry ).

This one is quite nice:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/endler.jpg









Here's a zoom:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/endlerzoom1.jpg


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

You're welcome to more if you'd like.. But somehow I doubt you'll be wanting for more Endlers ever again...at least not this color strain.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

This is turning out to be the ULTIMATE MASS PRODUCTION tank!

-vals (mass producing of runners)
-sag (mass production of runners)
-micranthemoides (need we say more)
-cherry shrimp (just wait until they get going)
-enders (um, yeah, guppies . . . hahaha)

You are going to be pulling all kinds of stuff outta there man! Maybe you could get some java moss to survive between the val and sag runners too. Then you'd be pumping out even more stuff! And, cherry shrimp love moss. :wink:


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## Kyle (Jul 19, 2005)

Man those endlers are neat looking, I'm going to have to get myself some of them!


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Kyle said:


> Man those endlers are neat looking, I'm going to have to get myself some of them!


What? Did I hear another sucker...uhh..I mean hobbiest is interested in getting some Endlers? :icon_lol:

Kyle, PM me and it can be arranged. roud:


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

bharada said:


> What? Did I hear another sucker...uhh..I mean hobbiest is interested in getting some Endlers? :icon_lol:
> 
> Kyle, PM me and it can be arranged. roud:


hahah, wow, that's great


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

before and after looks the same to me. DAYUM!! that's a ton of plants


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Somewhere in the "vast" 30 gallon tank.










There emerges...










New shrimp....










Endlers had their first babies on the same day .


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## Rupey (Nov 16, 2002)

Congrats on the baby shrimp! That tank will be crawling with cherries soon roud:


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## Jdinh04 (Mar 15, 2004)

Congrats, my 20g is filled w/ these babies too!


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

how long was it between noticing the female with eggs and the babies?


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

As always, great pics and tank is looking good.
Thats an impressive macro shot uni, what kind of camera are you using?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

donaldbyrd said:


> how long was it between noticing the female with eggs and the babies?


At a guess, I'd say 3-4 weeks. Looks like it was a little more than a month between the time when I saw the first eggs and the first shrimplets. Jon, you around? You bred them for me  - care to add your $.02 :icon_idea 



Lorenceo said:


> As always, great pics and tank is looking good.
> Thats an impressive macro shot uni, what kind of camera are you using?


Thanks kiwi ,

That camera is a Olympus C-5050 5.0 mp digital camera. It's a couple years old. I appreciate the compliment, but for every good shot I get with it, there are 20 crappers (but that's not the camera's fault). I'm so glad the film days are over.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I yanked 99% of the pearlgrass out because the stuff was smothering my crypts and java fern. Replace the ground cover with a bit of Taiwan moss that I got from Rupey. This has really opened the tank up. I like the look.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

wow what a great thread! so when are you going to quit your day job and just live off your tanks?


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## BoxxerBoyDrew (Oct 16, 2005)

Uni,

Man you have the TOUCH!! I am trying to clear out some of my sons reptile tanks, so I can get a settup like you have! You are a inspriation to the hobby!! I just had to get rid of my Oceanic 110 show tank as I am going on my 5th back surgery, and still need more! SUX! But it gives me A LOT of time to think of cool stuff to setup! I am setting up a 55gal plant display, and will start working on the breeding settup. Living in Central Texas the water is liquid limestone out of the tap, and I usualy have 600+ PPM of crap before my R/O unit cleans it up. 

So keep up the AWSOME WORK, and with the updates! roud: 
Drew


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Thanks guys (gals) .

Lumpy, if a few angelfish and shrimp can compensate for my salary, I'm in deep trouble . No, I think I'll keep the day job.

Boxxer,

Much thanks for the sincere attaboy. It's all about the total amount of "stuff" I can get away with in a give space. Real estate is at a premium when you are married to Mrs. "uni" :hihi:. Gotta make the most of what you "are given". 

And 600+ppm? Gees Louise, I thought I had it rough at 3-400! Damn dolomite.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

awsome thread i reallllly like it lol its really goood u must be really luckey to have those good parenting trates in ur angles i hear its rare for captive bread angles to have them now adays  :icon_frow 

i plan on ordering about 6 golden veil angles for my 55g that im going to be setting up... u think that might be pushing that or what? well they will all be in there untill they pair off :hihi: 

and im horrible with plant names whats the one that is taking up most of ur tank lol? i like it and the lfs has a show tank with it too its really nice! (u probably said it already lmao)

over and out
FN


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Great job on the angels,mymy,i feel so envious of them.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

Just FYI-- The taiwan moss will survive and grow left on the ground like that, but I don't think the moss can get the nicest fronds, or create the nice layers it's popular for if not attached to wood.

u never know with moss though


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## aanderson09 (Aug 7, 2005)

-_- wow, I just read every post on this entire thread:eek5: lots of reading, gj though, when do you think you're gonna give the rams another shot? and btw, your tank will soon be overflowing with endlers... I have a 29g with only endlers... started with 10 (8 females 2 males) heh lucky males got some action :icon_roll at a point I had about 50 or so (2 months later)... I recently added some kind of catfish though and he ate all the fry (30 fry) :icon_evil I put him into my 55g, here's a note to you... NEVER put in a bigger fish, btw, you got me convinced to try angel breeding, last fish breeding I tried was clownfish breeding, but it's too expensive, you barely brake even...


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Such kind words, and so much action in the photo album section these days.....I've been inspired to do some work on this ridiculously neglected tank. How bad was it. 

Take a look :icon_redf 










Now, I know you can't believe this, but there is a mess of moss in that tank, and it's growing quite well. There are also two large crypts and two pieces of driftwood w/ javas.

Here, let me remove a crap load of sagittaria... . The photo actually doesn't do this mop justice. My hand is open because it's too small to get around all of it.










There we are. And there are my fish. And what I thought was a couple dozen endlers looks more like a couple hundred. They are <bleepin> everywhere.










The large crypts I removed. They will be replacing a big apon in my 46g. I did leave a couple of their runners in the tank however, since I really like their brown contrast (if enough light gets to them).

I hadn't done a water change in this tank in more than 2 months. Everything was doing fine, but I thought it a good idea anyway. Of course, I tested it before I did the switch. Nutrients were a bit lopsided, but obviously nothing to worry about. The KH and GH was quite surprising, however. This tank receives tap water for water changes (RO for evaporation). Two months ago, the KH was 20 and the GH 20. Today, when I tested, KH=6 and GH=7. I did a bit of research......found some evidence that sag likes harder water, and readily uses up lots of Ca, Mg, and CO3. Interesting....

Left of center view:










-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

aanderson,

I don't plan to breed rams any time soon. The water in my area is quite hard; so it's difficult for shops to hold and sell these fish.

greenmiddlefinger,

You're right about the Taiwan moss. It doesn't really grow all pretty and "frondy" on the bottom. But it does grow. I noticed that some of it recently grabbed on to the front piece of driftwood. Maybe I'll get to see some of that sweet growth.


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## aanderson09 (Aug 7, 2005)

I'm guessing your endlers love the sagitarria, have some for sale?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey Ted! Sorry to not have said "Hi" in your thread before. But what _a great thread_! It's been quite a journey for you... between angles/endlers/rams, fish birth and loss, and pounds and pounds of plants!

I really like the look of the tank. Simple and natural looking are very attractive IMO. And I want you to know that your offer of trimmings was perfectly timed! Goodness knows I need it. I've got a home just waiting to make good use of that sag. Thanks! 

This of course also means that I'll be quietly cursing you in a few months when it tries to take over my tank! :biggrin:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

scolley said:


> This of course also means that I'll be quietly cursing you in a few months when it tries to take over my tank! :biggrin:


You mean you'll be cursing me as the sag tries to take over your _algae free_, sparkling tank? I look forward to the chastisement .

This plan for this tank was always function before form. How many accounts have your heard of successfully raising 100+ angelfish in a 20g tank? The fact that I can have an "aquascape" is icing on the cake. For this tank system, I never use ferts - ANY. All nutrients comes from angelfish chowing down in the 20g sump tank below. It makes removing plants all the more rewarding because the food I feed the angelfish does double-duty, and is never considered "waste". Food in (lots of it) - Plants out.


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

hmmm . . . it doesn't surprise me that without wood foot hold, the moss grows much like java moss in appearence . . . well, they both are taxiphyllum genus.

I hope you get to see the nice fronds on your wood though.

BTW-- are the cherries going as nuts as the endlers? 

really, I'm curious if endlers eat baby shrimp or not.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

This tank never ceases to amaze me ! :thumbsup: 

I like it with the chunk removed and the mossy bottom... Ill bet the fish do too.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

this tank is awsome! your fish must love it... looks awsome with that nice sized chunk removed,...

awsome tank!
fish newb

(dropped you a pm)


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*responses*

You guys are right about the fish. They seem to be much happier now that they have some swimming room. Without a gathering area, they never congregated; so I never knew how many there were.

GMF, The cherries are reproducing, but not at the same pace as the endlers. I'm incline to believe that the fish eat many of the small shrimp. The endlers spend a lot of time probing the substrate. Seems that my overflow box is a blessing for the shrimp. When small shrimp get sucked in, they can grow up without predation. I don't remove any of them from the box unless they are big. The overflow has a sponge filter that protects the shrimp from draining to the angelfish below. However, the sponge filter is designed that if it gets clogged, the water will flow over it. If this happens, all the shrimp are washed down to the delight of the angels. 

aanderson, I have neither endlers or sag for sale right now. Many folks from my local aquarium club saw the coloration on the endlers and now there is a waiting list. The endlers in all the local store can't hold a candle to these beauts that Bill sent me. I have yet to see better.
The sag I sent to Scolley.


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## oceanaqua (Nov 24, 2005)

Its the #190 post, and its 2 am for me 
Great Thread!


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## aanderson09 (Aug 7, 2005)

oh, can I go on the waiting list for the sag?  I didn't mean I wanted endlers, I meant I have like 50


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

aanderson09 said:


> oh, can I go on the waiting list for the sag?  I didn't mean I wanted endlers, I meant I have like 50


i got in there right before you  so after me im guessing?:icon_roll 

sorry!

fish newb


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## aanderson09 (Aug 7, 2005)

lol, ok, sure :icon_eek: I guess it'll be a few months before she has som ready for me then, oh well, I can wait


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Rupey,

I see what you mean now... It took a little while, but the juvenile shrimp you gave me have really reddened up (see page 11 for reference). One of them came close to the glass today, and I couldn't resist snapping a shot. These are so beautiful and timid that I'm thinking of replacing my dozen spazmatic amanos in my 46g with about 100 of these beauts. Since I've trasitioned that tank to only cardinal tetras, I think a calmer, smaller species of shrimp would be better suited.

Thanks again for the trade. These little shrimp are wonderful.


September:









January (absolutely NO color enhancement - pure photo):


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## killerbee (Jan 4, 2006)

unirdna, i wanted to say this is in inspiration....WOW!!!!!! 

Side note: if you have to clip them again i'd be happy to take some off your hands. PM me.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Thanks for your interest...*

Hi everyone,

I've gotten a recent surge of email and PM's re: this setup; especially re: the angelfish breeding. I've decided to simply address all questions on the thread for all to read.

Yep, I'm still breeding angelfish. But, my ram aspirations are done. I currently have two breeding pair. Both pair are kept in 10 gal aquariums with Hydro IV sponge filters. Many breeders claim that you need at least a 20g to keep a pair, but I found this only applies to angelfish with veil genes. Also, both of my pairs have small females.

The first pair is an original pair that I was given by a LFS. The owner knew that I was a local breeder, and decided to let me have the pair so that I could be a local source of angels. This pair consists of two gold angels. The gold expression is recessive, but since both fish have double "gold" genes (eg. No "wild type" or "silver" genes, all of their fry will be gold as well. However, each pair also carries one albino gene, and this causes 1/4 of all fry to be albino (since fry must have two copies of the gene - one from each parent) to be albino.










The second pair is a generation 1 pair. One is a male Gold, and is the offspring of the afore mentioned parents. The other is a silver female, and is the offspring of a pair of ghost angels. I no longer have those fish because they were too agressive, but you can still see photos of them earlier in the thread.










Angelfish tend to pair off when they are medium sized. Looking around my room, a good size comparison would be when their bodies become about the size of the inner circle of a compact disk. It is best to obtain pairs by allowing them to pair naturally (from a group of 5+ angels). It is more difficult to get an adult angel to accept a new mate, but not impossible. The success of the pair is usually controlled by the temperment of the larger individual. If the larger is passive, the smaller can be aggressive. But if the larger is aggressive, it can create a bad situation. Ripped fins, stress, etc.

The two pair I own get along well. In both pair, the male is the larger and more passive of the two.

Sometimes I let the parents raise their own fry, and sometimes I take them away and raise them myself. Here is a shot of a current batch I have on the way. These eggs are at day 3 - the "wiggler" stage. I took them away from the parents because the fry in the parent tanks have been experiencing bacterial infections lately. So, I put the fry in a Lee's specimen container with Methylene Blue. This gives them a sanitary environment, and assures 95+% hatch rates. 










These wigglers are from the silver/gold pair. I've been raising their fry more often because they produces three different kinds of angels. Silvers (25%), Smokies (25%), and Golds (50%). This is because the the female silver carries one recessive gold gene, and the male carries one smokey gene - not expressed because his double-dose of gold "overrules" the smokey gene. So, when a fry gets one gold gene, it does not express the gold (gold is all or nothing), and differs to wildtype. But, if the "wildtype" angel also has a "smokey" gene, is will be a smokey angel. Two smokey genes give you a "chocolate" angelfish. This is because, unlike the gold gene which is "all of nothing" (two gold genes express gold, but one or less gold gene does not), the smokey gene will express "some" for one gene, and "more" for two.

Here's a shot of some fry. They are a week or two away from selling size.









I think that takes care all the questions. If I missed one, or anyone has another, feel free to post them on the thread .

Here's a shot of the bottom tank where the fry are raised.










And here's the entire sump setup.


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## Perfectblue (Jan 11, 2006)

I just read through your whole thread and I have to say how much I enjoyed reading it.


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## simonbrown403 (Jan 12, 2006)

Wow good thread, nice jungle tank there mate lol.
I think you should look into a larger breeding set up for you angels and rams.
Do you manage to subsadise you hobie by selling you fish to your lfs

regard 

simon


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## timr (Mar 23, 2005)

I don't know if i have replied in this thread before or not but...GREAT JOB!! I love the whole set up. However, I have a hindering fear of overflows ever since my parents house lost power and i had a little saltwater flood. Luckily i was able to adjust the overflow box so that it would take less water from the top tank if the power went out. But you keep the sump filled to the brim, so what happens when/if the power goes out?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

timr said:



> But you keep the sump filled to the brim, so what happens when/if the power goes out?


The overflow box is a CPR hang-on-back. If the power goes out, only a few extra ounces spill over until the water stops. Where you run into trouble with a sump system is on the input end of the top tank - where the sump water flows in. It is the location that creates the "flooding". This is because when the power goes out, the water in the tank siphons back down into the sump tank until the water level (in the top tank) reaches the mouth of the output; where air intake breaks the siphon. You can overcome this problem by drilling a hole in the top tank's output at the water level. Then, when the power goes out, and the top tank tries to siphon back to the bottom tank, that small hole takes air in and breaks the siphon.

I also drill these small holes in the intake and spraybar of my canister filters. When the power goes out, the seals on your canister have to bear all the head pressure of the tank. If those seals give way, you could siphon out your entire tank (to the level of your intake). But, if you drill those small holes, then the siphon breaks and the water stays IN the tank.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

simonbrown403 said:


> Wow good thread, nice jungle tank there mate lol.
> I think you should look into a larger breeding set up for you angels and rams.
> Do you manage to subsadise you hobie by selling you fish to your lfs
> 
> ...


Thank you, Simon. And welcome to the forum!!

I have been fighting the urge to setup more tanks . I'm afraid that if my hobby becomes too much work, I'll lose my zest. Selling/trading angelfish pays for my hobby, but no more than that. I'm currently "building" a school of cardinal tetras in my 46g tank. I have 25 and I want 50. In my area, that would be a $200 purchase :eek5: . That is an expensive bucket of bait .


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## aanderson09 (Aug 7, 2005)

thanks, that covered all my questions, except one. How big should angels be to pair up by gender?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Right of Passage*

I gave both of the 10g's adjacent to my 30/20g setup a complete overhaul. Emptied them out; scrubbed the sides; the whole works. 

In doing so, I had to place both pairs of angels (photos at the top of this page) into the lower 20g setup temporarily - for about 15-20 min.

The gold angel from the gold/silver pair is the son of the gold/gold pair. He's one of the little buggers in this photo. The little angles in this photo were laid as eggs on Feb 14, 2005 - nearly a year ago.










I kept the son because he grew so fast compared to his siblings, and because he had perfect proportions. The son lived with his other siblings and the parents for a few months, but because he was so large, his dad singled him out as a threat and laid down a beating that almost killed him. That incident lead to the separation of all the fry from the parents.

The siblings all eventually went to the LFS, but that son I kept for breeding stock.

.....cut to today (2 days from the son's first b-day; or 9 days, depending on when you consider "birth" to happen for a fish ). Both pairs hit the 20g water at the same time. I thought that they would behave since neither was acclimated to the tank. After a minute or two for "dad" and "son" to catch their breath, they went at it like a couple of pitbulls. I, of course, didn't see this until the 4th or 5th minute....in which "son" was clearly handing "dad" his @ss.




























The smaller angels you see are the offspring of the son and his silver mate.

The son has always been so passive. I swear he remembered that beating "dad" gave him. He laid down the hurt like the "coward of the county". Poor guy looked so disgusted when I stopped the fight, and plopped him back into his 10g .


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## Ðank (Dec 29, 2005)

That is a funny story and I'm sure "dad" looked embarrased too. Did you float a bag of frozen peas for him? Maybe drop a steak in his tank?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

That 'son' has really impressive finnage, but why is he alone - where's his mate?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> That 'son' has really impressive finnage, but why is he alone - where's his mate?


She's in a 10g of her own, raising some fry. I removed the male because the two of them don't agree where to put the fry. The male moves them to point A, then the female moves them back to point B. This goes on 24/7. I don't know if it's bad for the fry, but it annoys me :icon_redf . So, I let them take turns. 

I also want to give the female a little down-time from laying eggs. I'm hoping that without the male in the tank, she'll "decided" to invest some of her eating into growth instead of egg production. She eats 2X as much as the male, yet barely grows.

Good news is they always seem to "remember" each other when I rejoin them for spawning.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Ted, these last two pages are great!! Almost like a soap opera!! 

I'm wondering if later on down the road I may give discus breeding a shot...

Very cool setup!


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Raul-7 said:


> That 'son' has really impressive finnage, but why is he alone - where's his mate?


And speaking of the female....Three cheers for the little lady on her first freeswimming fry!! :icon_mrgr Her tail is almost healed up from her squabble with the gold "son". She started it - he finished it.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

wow the fish are amazing as ever! from the photo above and above... (at the top of the page) it looks like you tank is filled up again! is it time for another clearence? if so im interested.... and wow this has come a long way. i think my lfs is starting to get some nicer gold veil babies and such so i might be starting my own breeding project up by the end of the year with a friend!:icon_roll 

so if you have extra vals let me know... im having algea problems too... not enough plants. so if ur overstocked with them im open arms! you know plus shiping and then some...

-=- fish newb -=-

(edit) my rams are also adults now.. both males... keep tryin to spawn with each other... i think im going to need to get a few females now. any tips on breeding rams?


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## Thanks (Oct 9, 2004)

Uni, how old are the golden fry in the first pic of the "Right Of Passage" post (with their parents in the tank)? My 2 week old fry are almost there, and I'm wondering whether or not it's time to move them from a 3 into a 10 gallon. What do you think? The buggers are devouring 30 brine shrimp apiece.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

*Change over.*

I had neglected this tank for a long time. The sag had completely taken over every inch of space and stunted itself. As a consequence, it stopped taking up nitrate, which then spiked to over 100ppm. I know that I had planned on spreading this around to a few forum members, but I couldn't send this stuff anywhere but the trash can. It was browning and the tips were covered in various algae. In short, it looked like crap and wouldn't even had survived a trip through the mail.

I collected up what good sag I could find, and replanted the tank. While I was at it, I ripped out my driftwood decoration, and removed the slate plate that weighted it down. It was such a thick piece of slate that it only allowed 1/2 of substate over the top. This caused many sag plants to grow themselves right out of the substrate. From the 15 months in the tank, the wood had become negatively buoyant, so I was still able to place it back in the tank.

I semi-scaped the tank. Not quite sure if I want to make this a "legit" tank, or just keep it as a nursery and growout project. One thing I do know is that I'm probably going to stop raising angelfish, and start raising a smaller fish sp. Rams, shell dwellers, apistos.....something like that. Angelfish create too much of a nutrient load, forcing me to always have the 30 overgrown.









http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/top30.jpg

The two 10 gallon tanks currently house my remaining stock of angels.

Bottom 10 gallon houses the "mom" and a few silvers and golds.









http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/bottom10.jpg

Top tank contains the 5 best smokey angels from the last breeding between the silver female and the big, gold male. They are starting to flirt and pair off.









http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/top10.jpg

That big male has the 20g to himself right now. I don't know what to do with him just yet. He'll just take up breeding space if I keep him, but letting him go will be tough. He is the most perfect angel I've ever owned.









http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/bottom20.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/gold07.jpg

Again, sorry to those who were hoping for a bit of sag. :frown: I'll stay on top of the pruning this time, and will contact you when I pluck some out.


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## Speshall*K (Jun 24, 2007)

Wow!!!!!!!!!!!


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## lansen (Feb 25, 2007)

Update? Please


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Been digging around in the archives, Speshall*K .

The update is that the tank is as stable as ever. It's my garden tank - last count around 20 species. Raising angelfish burned me out, so I switched to endlers. I used to get $2 for each angelfish from the local petstores. I get $1 per endler, and endlers require NO effort at all. You can't see them, but there are about 20 alpha females in the upper tank, along with about 20 males. They make babies continuously and the fry get pulled into the overflow and down to the 20g tank. There are 100's of them down there. I grow them out in the 20g and sell them when they reach adult size. Very easy gig. Sucking the fry into the 20g means I don't have to tear the tank apart to catch the little buggers during "harvest time". The system requires no ferts and very few water changes. Other than topping off the tank once a month, all I basically do is feed fish. If only my 90cm ADA tank was this easy :icon_roll .

Thanks for looking .


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## lansen (Feb 25, 2007)

unirdna said:


> Been digging around in the archives, Speshall*K .
> 
> The update is that the tank is as stable as ever. It's my garden tank - last count around 20 species. Raising angelfish burned me out, so I switched to endlers. I used to get $2 for each angelfish from the local petstores. I get $1 per endler, and endlers require NO effort at all. You can't see them, but there are about 20 alpha females in the upper tank, along with about 20 males. They make babies continuously and the fry get pulled into the overflow and down to the 20g tank. There are 100's of them down there. I grow them out in the 20g and sell them when they reach adult size. Very easy gig. Sucking the fry into the 20g means I don't have to tear the tank apart to catch the little buggers during "harvest time". The system requires no ferts and very few water changes. Other than topping off the tank once a month, all I basically do is feed fish. If only my 90cm ADA tank was this easy :icon_roll .
> 
> Thanks for looking .


So cool, can u show us some more pics of that?


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## CJ (Plant Freak) (Jun 1, 2007)

This thread is very good... Lots of things have changed and I love your planted setup!


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## Speshall*K (Jun 24, 2007)

Sweet update! You must be making hundreds of dollars every time you bring endlers back to the store!!! They make you more money than the angels!!! More Updates!!!


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## vibes_jedi99 (Jun 20, 2007)

very, nice information. I spended almost 3 hours read this thread. LOVE IT! 
Thank you for this wonderful thread.


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## Speshall*K (Jun 24, 2007)

SPENT almost 3 hrs. looking at thread!!!!!!!!

lol JK... Kinda...


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