# ADA Substrate Fast Cycling Experiment



## MiniFishRoom (Mar 23, 2012)

ADA Amazonia Soil Cycling Experiment

A lot of the information that I have read online about ADA soil is that it leeches ammonia and needs to be cycled for a few weeks before any fish can be put in. From my experience with ADA Amazonia soil I would disagree. A few years back with the old Amazonia soil I let it cycled only for about a week and I tossed a pair of Wild Betta Macrostomas in and they were fine. Since I just ordered more ADA Amazonia I decided to experiment again to see if I can add my fish to the set up but this time in 4 days of cycling. Here is what I did with success again

1. Add in new ADA Amazonia substrate.
2. Add a little water to the substrate and plant the plants as needed.
3. Fill about 50%-75% of the tank with water from another established aquarium.
4. Take a USED sponge filter or box filter from one of the established tanks and placed it in the new setup.
5. Let it cycle for 4 days and you can toss in fish  

I believe the trick to this is the established tank water and the sponge filter or box filter.
It’s been about two weeks now since I done this and my fishes (T.Candidi (Pair)) are still doing great.

_I’m just letting everyone know about my experiences so try at your own risk._
I will be doing this again in the next 2 weeks or so once I get my 27 cube stand built.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

How about some test results? Just because your fish are living, doesn't mean they are fine. You could have caused damage that you don't know about yet. 

I've done exactly what you have with the "established" water and a seeded filter plus daily 80%+ water changes and the ammonia is still present for 3-4 weeks.


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## MiniFishRoom (Mar 23, 2012)

I don't do all that spiffy chemical tests. Just straight trial and error.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Then you are not proving anything. If you say it doesn't leach ammonia past two weeks and then not test it, we learn nothing.

People say it leaches 4 weeks because they tested for ammonia, myself included.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

There is no such thing as 4 days cycling. Simply because nitrifying bacteria takes time to develop and grow. Mostly time to colonize the substrate which does not happen in 4 days regardless if you put an established filter or not. There will be spikes in Ammonia/Nitrite.

2 weeks, maybe. With an over sized established filter that ran 2 months on an established aquarium.

These posts are funny. In the same league as the miracle bacteria cocktails that are supposed to cycle a tank in days.


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## MiniFishRoom (Mar 23, 2012)

It works for me so I thought I'd just share my experience


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Everybody keeps repeating to check Ammonia with tests. If you don't test it you'll never know.

But if it makes you happy I think that's all that matters


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## vnghost (Sep 21, 2012)

I started with a tank, half old used substrate, half new substrate new Amazonian, seeded filter media from colonized filter, aquarium water from established tank. My ammonia levels were off the charts for at least 2 weeks, nitrite spiked heavy around the 3rd week and fully cycled around the 4th week. Just my experience. 


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Did you get your idea here: Just cycled a tank with new aquasoil in 4 days!!

Using used substrate, filter media, sponges and such can really speed up a cycle. I cycled mine with aqua soil relatively quick once I added used media, plants, and a sponge. Cranking the heat up helps a lot too. It was able to consume all of the ammonia and nitrite to zero within a week of me seeding the media and sponge. 

However, even if your tank can consume all of the ammonia, that doesn't mean aqua soil doesn't still leach it. Due to the amount of ammonia that aqua soil leaches out, my nitrates were very high for 6 weeks and only recently came down into the normal range. I recommend a lot of water changes to keep nitrates down.


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## MiniFishRoom (Mar 23, 2012)

AnotherHobby said:


> Did you get your idea here: Just cycled a tank with new aquasoil in 4 days!!
> 
> Using used substrate, filter media, sponges and such can really speed up a cycle. I cycled mine with aqua soil relatively quick once I added used media, plants, and a sponge. Cranking the heat up helps a lot too. It was able to consume all of the ammonia and nitrite to zero within a week of me seeding the media and sponge.
> 
> However, even if your tank can consume all of the ammonia, that doesn't mean aqua soil doesn't still leach it. Due to the amount of ammonia that aqua soil leaches out, my nitrates were very high for 6 weeks and only recently came down into the normal range. I recommend a lot of water changes to keep nitrates down.


Nope. I just pretty much tried it myself and it worked out fine.
I didn't crank up heat or anything.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Regardless, you are still having ammonia leaching through 4 weeks. It may "work" for you, but there still is ammonia even though your fish lived.


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## MiniFishRoom (Mar 23, 2012)

danielt said:


> Everybody keeps repeating to check Ammonia with tests. If you don't test it you'll never know.
> 
> But if it makes you happy I think that's all that matters


Yep, couldn't agree more.


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

Right up there with folks saying their water parameters are "perfect" because the water looks clear and there aren't any fish carcasses floating along the substrate. 

Fish can, amazingly, survive pretty horrific conditions against all reason. Anyone who's had experience rescuing tanks knows that and it's a tough haul getting them to successfully adapt to decent conditions. Just as a rescue'd fish dumped into good water can die from the shock of sudden water chemstry changes, the fish currently in your setup may be managing with the conditions--but further rises in ammonia levels OR a new fish introduced to the same conditions may well result in fish deaths. 

Glad it worked for you--at least so far, and hopefully you'll see that success continue--but it's bad advice to be giving if you can't support your claims with more than anectodal evidence.


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## AnotherHobby (Mar 5, 2012)

Couesfanatic said:


> Regardless, you are still having ammonia leaching through 4 weeks. It may "work" for you, but there still is ammonia even though your fish lived.


Yes, it will absolutely continue to leach ammonia (no fast cycle will stop that). Biological filtration can grow quickly to cover for it though, so it doesn't mean the tank has lots of ammonia in it. There will be a lot of nitrate though as it get's processed to nitrate and then nitrate, and the excess can only be removed by water changes.


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## ftwchopper (Nov 12, 2011)

Im on week three of cycling a 10 gallon with ada.I used established tank water and a seeded sponge filter and my amonia level is still at .25 ppm...


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Yep, testing for ammonia and nitrite = important.

Though, in this hobby, it's not just about making oneself happy. It's about responsible stewardship of the animals in your care.

It's important (OP) for you to comprehend the nitrogen cycle and to understand that what you are doing is likely harming your livestock beyond what you can imagine. Setting up another tank like this is more than irresponsible. Primarily because people have used ADA substrates for years. Which means there are literally years of experiences - from thousands of people - making it super-clear that it's unsafe to toss livestock in a tank with your substrate prior to the nitrogen "cycle" completing. There are hundreds and hundreds of posts on this very forum documenting the process.

I encourage you to either do some serious testing or stop adding livestock to tanks that are not ready to support life. Do the responsible thing.



danielt said:


> Everybody keeps repeating to check Ammonia with tests. If you don't test it you'll never know.
> 
> *But if it makes you happy I think that's all that matters*


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

AnotherHobby said:


> Yes, it will absolutely continue to leach ammonia (no fast cycle will stop that). Biological filtration can grow quickly to cover for it though, so it doesn't mean the tank has lots of ammonia in it. There will be a lot of nitrate though as it get's processed to nitrate and then nitrate, and the excess can only be removed by water changes.


I realize that it can be converted, but it is still in your water. It doesn't magically change the instant it comes out of the soil. Many people have had problems with shrimp dying because the ammonia is still coming from the soil. Levels are higher near the soil.


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## fplata (May 20, 2012)

With out testing there is no experiment here just gut feeling and suffering fish


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## youdontknowme (Jan 17, 2013)

im having 3ft planted tank with ADA NEW AMAZONIA ( normal ) as substrates and the filter is matured 1 year filter.
then on day 4 , i added in discus and cardinals and cories. till now its been like 2months (finally stop leeching ammonia ) and its perfectly fine. 
no dying of any fishes. the substrates do lower ph below 7 , which converts ammonia to ammonium which is doesnt really do any harm to the fish


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## scbrooks87 (Nov 28, 2012)

To any of the posters on here... have any of you smelled a bottle of ammonia? Now just imagine if you fill your bathtub with that stuff and lock yourself in the bathroom with it for 3 weeks. Youll likely come out alive but youll be left with serious respiratory problems.

This is what you put your fish through when introducing them to a tank that isnt properly cycled. Its cruel and ultimately shameful. Would you subject a dog, cat, hamster, etc... to that type of thing? No... why would fish be different?

Sorry for the rant... just makes me sick when people do that stuff, and worse when they suggest it to others.

Also sorry for any spelling errors. Using my cell for this and im not a fan of the touch screen lol


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## TheGuy (Jan 6, 2013)

scbrooks87 said:


> To any of the posters on here... have any of you smelled a bottle of ammonia? Now just imagine if you fill your bathtub with that stuff and lock yourself in the bathroom with it for 3 weeks. Youll likely come out alive but youll be left with serious respiratory problems.
> 
> This is what you put your fish through when introducing them to a tank that isnt properly cycled. Its cruel and ultimately shameful. Would you subject a dog, cat, hamster, etc... to that type of thing? No... why would fish be different?
> 
> ...


I would just pull the plug out and run the water... ammonia isnt as bad as your making it seem, gas would have been better.

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## scbrooks87 (Nov 28, 2012)

TheGuy said:


> I would just pull the plug out and run the water... ammonia isnt as bad as your making it seem, gas would have been better.
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


You are completely missing the issue! You can pull a plug and run some water... your fish cannot. And the very fact that youd need to pull the plug should be proof enough that putting fish in an uncycled tank is irresponsible.


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## TheGuy (Jan 6, 2013)

We have brains and know to pull the plug... a fishes brain is smaller than the lead point on a pencil. It knows that the large thing it sees brings it food, it must reproduce in order to exist, and eat. Thats all, nothing more. Perhaps if it showed emotion?!?! Lol I wouldn't do it, but its a fish not your little brother. I know where your coming from but I'm just being realistic.

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## scbrooks87 (Nov 28, 2012)

Honestly you shouldnt own fish then. Sorry if it's harsh but you clearly dont see fish as the living and breathing creatures they are. Its not a matter of giving them a condition they like, its a matter of giving them a condition that is healthy for them. When you buy fish youre responsible for them.


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## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

The buying part it's the culprit here. If anyone would give birth to the fish they keep I'm certain things would be different (better). Since there is plenty of fish in the sea why bother with getting knowledge about what's going on in their tank?

I think this thread is drifting apart from the original idea. But there's more to learn from it. First is the nitrifying bacteria has a reproduction cycle of 24-32 hours.

Second, when you put an established filter like one mentioned previously (+1 year of running) there's bound to kill the bacteria that will starve as there not enough ammonia or nitrite to feed them all. One of them in the cycle will surely die off. This WILL cause a spike in either ammonia or nitrite. If there's enough ammonia, those that feed on nitrite will die off as there will be a large gap in their energy source, nitrite.

The cycle is an equilibrium between bacteria and their energy source, until the equilibrium is established swings will occur. How large, depends on the availability of the energy source, environment conditions and bacterial count.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

People use the word "cycle" with Aquasoil and it really grinds my gears. lol. The soil leeches ammonia. Period. No amount of filter media in the world is going to make that happen much fast. You may have enough bacteria to eat the ammonia as it's made, and you may have enough bacteria to eat the nitrites made, but you're going to get high high nitrates. The soil leeches ammonia, there is nothing to "cycle", it's simply riding out the time that ammonia stops. 

Using undergravel filters will speed it up as it's pulling the water through the soil, causing it to leech a bit faster, but in the process, raising the ammonia even higher and wearing out the buffering faster of the soil. 

There is no "cycle" with soil, there is only waiting for the ammonia to leech out.


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## Mantis992 (Feb 13, 2013)

GeToChKn said:


> People use the word "cycle" with Aquasoil and it really grinds my gears. lol. The soil leeches ammonia. Period. No amount of filter media in the world is going to make that happen much fast. You may have enough bacteria to eat the ammonia as it's made, and you may have enough bacteria to eat the nitrites made, but you're going to get high high nitrates. The soil leeches ammonia, there is nothing to "cycle", it's simply riding out the time that ammonia stops.
> 
> Using undergravel filters will speed it up as it's pulling the water through the soil, causing it to leech a bit faster, but in the process, raising the ammonia even higher and wearing out the buffering faster of the soil.
> 
> There is no "cycle" with soil, there is only waiting for the ammonia to leech out.



Really good point. My tank is "cycled" because nitrites spiked and are now at 0, and nitrates are high, but the ammonia is still leeching faster than the bacteria can devour it.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Mine had ammonia for 3 weeks, the was with some seeded media, and nite out II to speed up the process, plus lots of plants loaded with bacteria. It was kept at a much lower level than my first setup with it, but it was still detecable around 1.0 -2.0 ppm for 3 weeks. 
Im also using a wet/dry filter which definitely speeds up the process. Lots of oxygen, lots of surface area for bacteria to colonize


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

There are 2 cycles going on here. 

1) Substrate that leaches ammonia. It will keep on leaching ammonia for roughly a month no matter what you do. I think the fastest way to remove the ammonia is to keep up with the water changes. Chemicals will enter the water easiest if the water is not already overloaded with that chemical. Keep on removing the ammonia from the water and more will enter it from the soil. 

2) Growing nitrifying bacteria to the level needed to remove ammonia from the water, and to remove the resulting nitrite. Obviously if you start with a great source of nitrifying bacteria (a well cycled filter) then this part of the cycle is half done on day one. The other part of this is getting those bacteria to colonize all the surfaces in the tank. This is not critical to ammonia control, but provides a back up for when you clean the filter media and disturb the bacteria colonies. 

You cannot see ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in the water. 
The only way you can tell the progress of these 2 cycles is to test the water for each of these materials. 
A "fish-test" is not a valid test. Fish can suffer from ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels and not show any obvious damage. Immune response reduction, damaged kidneys, stress, burned gills, reduced life span and other things are impossible to tell after just a few days.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I am now setting up a 65 gallon tank with ADA Aquasoil as the substrate. I started with a mix of almost new Africana and Amazonia, then added a large bag of Aquasoil on top. I filled the tank with water and planted a few plants. I measured the ammonia and nitrite in the water for almost 4 weeks. My ammonia peaked at about 3 ppm 6 days after I filled the tank. I started doing 40% water changes about every 3 days. By the 10th day the ammonia level was about .25 ppm, and in 14 days it was virtually zero. At no time did I find my nitrite level above zero. On the 12th day I added many more plants, to what I consider heavily planted - a plant about every 2 inches both left and right and front to back. After the 10th day I did only one 40% water change, on the 19th day, and at no time was the ammonia level as high as .25, probably zero. And, no nitrite ever showed up.

The tank has a Hamburger Mattenfilter, with a lot of biofilter area. I had cleaned it fairly well, by far from very clean, and soaked it in some Excel/water, to make sure no living BBA was on it. I'm guessing that the bacteria still lived in the filter sponge so I had effectively seeded the tank with bacteria, plus the huge amount of plants, primarily about 60 Sag. subulata, was itself a big bacteria source.

Since I can't measure any ammonia in the water, and haven't for the past 10 days, I added 6 otos to the tank today.

I'm not convinced that Aquasoil will always require 6 weeks to stop leaching excessive ammonia. My water is very soft, too, so the pH is certain to be low, making any ammonia present be in the form of ammonium. Otos tend to be very sensitive to water conditions when first added to the tank, so I will soon know how well they are handling the water.


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## Smitty06 (Mar 25, 2012)

I have had 2 bags of ADA Amazonia and they were VERY different in their leeching time. My first bag stoped in a week and a half the other managed to go all the way to four and a half weeks. IME


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## Kinection (Dec 1, 2012)

I was about to tell my dad to get in the car when I read this thread! It would be great if the 4 day cycle would work for me. I'm definetly going to continue reading this thread.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

At 4 days my ammonia level was still rising. I wouldn't even consider trying for less than a couple of weeks for the leaching to stop.

The 6 Otos I added to my tank are still doing good, all are fat, eating well, and very active.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Hoppy has suggested the way to handle these substrates:

LOTS of plants to remove nitrogen (ammonia, ammonium, nitrite, nitrate)
A well established bacteria colony. 
Give them time to establish and grow. Not just a few days. Several weeks. 

These will not stop the soil from leaching ammonia, but when they are in equilibrium with the soil they will quickly remove the ammonia from the water. Over the time it takes for the plants and bacteria to get established in the tank, the soil will be producing less and less ammonia. 

Test frequently so you know how things are going. 

I would like to point out that the timing might have been a bit fast, perhaps Hoppy got a few of those bags Smitty06 talked about that cycled faster than average. I have read a lot of posts from people using various ADA products, and most seem to say that these materials produce ammonia for something close to 3 weeks, but can vary to 4 or more weeks. Under 3 weeks seems pretty fast. 4 days is impossible. 

Ammonia burns the gills of the fish. Imagine the very worst sore throat you have ever had. So bad it hurts to breathe. 
Nitrite causes Methemoglobinemia, a condition where the blood does not carry oxygen very well. 
Combine the 'worst sore throat' with the need for stronger deeper breathing to overcome the nitrite poisoning. The gills CANNOT work harder, there are parts missing, burned off by the ammonia. 

To deliberately expose any animal to these conditions is inhumane. When you are arguing that it doesn't matter, you should not keep pets of any sort.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

My last Amazonia tank took 3 months to stop leeching, with weekly water changes, but it didn't have a ugf and it is a 20 tall so not much flow on the bottom. 

The one before that was a canister powered ugf and it stopped leeching after 4 weeks. 

I personally like the leeching (although my 3 month tank was ridiculous, smelled like cat pee the entire cycle), it allows plenty of ammonia and time for a good deep cycle to occur and for biofilm to populate the surfaces in the tank. Doing massive water changes every few days really shortens the time, so I don't do that, I just change water once a week if it gets over 4ppm.

And to people who think it's fine because ammonia turns to ammonium in acid, did you know that once the cycle kicks in, that ammonium still converts to toxic nitrite? So your fish could be fine for 3-4 weeks and then all of the sudden die because finally the bacteria populates.


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## chew (May 18, 2012)

mordalphus said:


> My last Amazonia tank took 3 months to stop leeching, with weekly water changes, but it didn't have a ugf and it is a 20 tall so not much flow on the bottom.


I just put a about 2/3 a 9L bag of it in a 10 gallon and let it sit for 2 months with an airstone just topping off the water and it cycled faster with just a few plants. I'm pretty sure it is going to differ from every batch because my other tank cycled for 2 months as well and that was with two 50% water changes a week


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