# In-line multiple canister filtration (PRL)



## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

In another thread here the conversation on filtration went off on a tangent and touched upon the subject of using multiple canister filters (or multiple pre-filters) in-line for the purpose of nitrate removal in tanks with high-end (expensive and sensitive) shrimp like Taiwan Bee breeding tanks or, more specifically, high end PRL tanks.

Since Gem was the person who brought up the subject and people are very interested in his PRL shrimp and his experiences as a breeder I figured that this would be a subject that people here would be interested in and which will likely come up again in the future.

I was able to dig up an old archived version of the same discussion on SN!. I am including a quote by Ecalyte which really summarized the topic well, IMO, but I will include a link to the archived version of the thread as well for any who want to further read up on it.

http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7839.html



Ecalyte said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> I would like to share the reasoning behind why people do in-line filtration. Quite a few will do it just because other people are doing it without knowing the actual reasoning behind it.
> 
> ...


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

I will use this post to consolidate answers to common questions (should there be any).

There is mention of people with UGF pipes having even less (or zero) anaerobic bacteria in the substrate. Liam has mentioned this several times as being one of the reasons that he does not run his custom UGF pipes under the entire area of the substrate (he wants to maintain some of that anaerobic bacteria in the substrate by not pulling as much oxygenated water through the substrate in that area). As alluded to in the quote above though the entire reason that the lower depths of a substrate are anaerobic is because there is not good water flow to those areas. This lack of water flow limits the impact of this anaerobic bacteria source. The benefit of massively increased aerobic bacteria in the substrate in a UGF pipe system should far outweigh the slight loss of anaerobic bacteria in the soil so using a UGF pipe system is still a good idea, IMO.

Another common question is whether all of the canisters should be powered up (have the pump running) and, if not, which pump should be running. The most common answer that I can find is that only one pump should be running in each string of filters/pre-filters and that the most common position for the pump is at the end of the chain so that it 'pulls' water through the other filters/pre-filters. As Gem mentions in the other thread here shrimp are used to very slight currents so the slower flow resulting from pulling through several pressurized bio-media containers (filters/pre-filters) is not actually a problem in a shrimp tank. The slower flow might actually increase 'dwell time' at each filter/pre-filter and increase the opportunity for the aerobic bacteria to strip out the oxygen from the water (though this part is just my personal speculation).


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

So with the concept of not restricting the intake double disconnect valve on an eheim, isn't it the same thing if you're having the pump at the very end of the chain?


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Question, how can breeders produce babies with bare bottom tank or no plants whatsoever?

Spending $$ on 3-4 canister filters just a waste IMO...
I mean why can't breeders use the advantage of mosses/ floaters & more plants that _theoridicaly_ remove nitrates? Plus _theoridicaly_ give baby shrimps hiding spot and micro organism to eat thus increasing their mortality.



madness said:


> *Ecalyte*
> Most Taiwanese breeders use a bare-tank concept, that means.. there's barely any plants or decor.. just soil and shrimps. So the problem these breeders constantly run into is crazy amounts of nitrates, without plants to help them reduce it.


I really don't get it?


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

sayurasem said:


> Question, how can breeders produce babies with bare bottom tank or no plants whatsoever?
> 
> Spending $$ on 3-4 canister filters just a waste IMO...
> I mean why can't breeders use the advantage of mosses/ floaters & more plants that _theoridicaly_ remove nitrates? Plus _theoridicaly_ give baby shrimps hiding spot and micro organism to eat thus increasing their mortality.


I don't know the answers to all of those questions.

They use bare-bottom tanks to avoid build-up of mulm or uneaten food. When pristine water quality is required people often go with bare-bottom tanks (see Discus keeping for example). Plus it makes netting them out easier.

There is nothing to say that they don't have mosses in the tanks - many or most probably do but it is unlikely that they are in sufficient quantity to reduce nitrates at the rate that they desire.

This concept is obviously something that is being applied in high-end tanks and breeding set-ups rather than something that every single shrimp keeper should use.

There is no reason that I can see that this concept can't be combined with what we are already doing in our shrimp tanks or with other filtration methods.

Liam has a UGF pipe system hooked up to some inline canisters/pre-filters in one of his tanks, IIRC, while still having a huge amount of active substrate as well as possibly even sponge filters.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

With >$10,000 (or way more) worth of sensitive livestock in breeding tanks it seems like people either have to constantly pump in fresh water via auto top-off/auto drain systems or have massive filtration in a closed system.

They actually have pre-filter systems in Asia that you can buy that have several containers linked that you can just use as a single pre-filter with one canister filter. I think that there are a few people in the states who have been able to bring them back from Taiwan or HK or wherever when visiting but as far as I know they are not available via retail. Using a few of those JAQNO or whatever pre-filters like Liam sells can be substituted for all but the final canister filter.

There is a company called Totto that has a pre-filter series thing that looks cool but there isn't enough English on the box in the photo that I have seen for me to even do any searching on it. Definitely not cheap though now that I found some links to it.

Here is a link to someone's page describing similar systems that also has a photo of the Totto pre-filter:

http://kh2crs.blogspot.com/2009/01/20l-crs-tank-kh.html

A link to some Totto filter page that has pics but I can't read a darn word of it. 

http://www.totto.co.jp/perfectfilter.html


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> So with the concept of not restricting the intake double disconnect valve on an eheim, isn't it the same thing if you're having the pump at the very end of the chain?


I don't really understand your question. Sorry. 

I did notice in the other thread that you asked about removing the motor from the non-running canisters and this is what many people do to avoid problems.

Probably the best way to do it here in the states is to try and track down a few of the canister pre-filter things and then put them in-line in front of a fully functioning canister filter. Two pre-filters costs a little bit less than a small Eheim.

People have been looking to figure out if there are some available RO type canister filters which can be converted to this use but I haven't seen anyone link to a specific model that they have tested yet.

These systems will provide a ton of space for beneficial bacteria to grow (whether they are aerobic or anaerobic) so in really low pH tanks like Liam's Taiwan Bee tank it is also helpful since the bacteria works so much slower/less efficiently in the super low pH environments (and thus you need more of it to process the same amount of waste).


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Yea my questions wasn't really phrased well :hihi:

What I meant was people don't adjust the quick disconnect valve on the intake of the eheim because it chokes the motor by restricting the flow right? So when you have the motor running at the very end of the chain, aren't you restricting the intake as well? And as time goes, won't restricting the motor decrease the life of it?

The last/only person I saw selling the pre-filters would be Liam and he's sold out for now. Maybe I'll try and find some on my trip to Taiwan


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Yea my questions wasn't really phrased well :hihi:
> 
> What I meant was people don't adjust the quick disconnect valve on the intake of the eheim because it chokes the motor by restricting the flow right? So when you have the motor running at the very end of the chain, aren't you restricting the intake as well? And as time goes, won't restricting the motor decrease the life of it?
> 
> The last/only person I saw selling the pre-filters would be Liam and he's sold out for now. Maybe I'll try and find some on my trip to Taiwan


I have always been under the impression that the Eheim motors are able to handle restricted flow safely (thus the reason that they feel comfortable installing the flow restricting double-taps in the first place). This is part of the reason that they are popular for UGF as well, I think, is that people feel like the motors are rugged enough or designed to handle restricted flow.


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## GEM 35shrimps (May 1, 2012)

One of my tank using 3 2213 full of Power House soft S.
Tank capacity is ~18Gallons

edit# It was 3 2215 actually.. I checked


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

GEM 35shrimps said:


> One of my tank using 3 2213 full of Power House soft S.
> Tank capacity is ~18Gallons


So the powerhouse stuff controls the pH as well like a active substrate as well as bio filtration? Wow, store near me carries it. $100 for 1L ? How long before the buffering effect of it wears out?


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

I was using 2 X 2215 (only one turned on) for my 60p but switched it out to two prefilters. I'm digging the reverse UGF for the new tank so far. Less mulm build up over time.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

Question: If I use 1 canister filter maybe plus a sponge filter to keep ammonia/no2 at 0, and have no3 under control. What does the extra filtration give me?


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

shrimpnmoss said:


> I was using 2 X 2215 (only one turned on) for my 60p but switched it out to two prefilters. I'm digging the reverse UGF for the new tank so far. Less mulm build up over time.


May I know the order of the filters?

pre-filter floss -> pre-filter bio rings -> eheim 2215 -> in-line heater?

After did some reading, I think its best to have only 1 running motor at the end. I don't think it will brake the motor because the water is literally pushed to the motor by gravity.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Tank --->Substrate for primary biological filtration ------> Pre Filter with rings for large mechanical filtration -----> Pre filter with sponge and Purigen for fine mechanical filtration and chemical filtration -----> Canister w/coco puffs for secondary biological filtration.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

randyl said:


> Question: If I use 1 canister filter maybe plus a sponge filter to keep ammonia/no2 at 0, and have no3 under control. What does the extra filtration give me?


Not much. The biggest reason that people do it is to keep nitrates under control so if you already have them under control then you probably don't need this level of filtration.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

shrimpnmoss said:


> Tank --->Substrate for primary biological filtration ------> Pre Filter with rings for large mechanical filtration -----> Pre filter with sponge and Purigen for fine mechanical filtration and chemical filtration -----> Canister w/coco puffs for secondary biological filtration.


Qurious about these setup. Your setup is like the standard eheim setup except like 10 more times better.

My question is why does people go with Bio rings first then floss then coco puffs? What I'd the difference between Bio rings and coco puffs, aren't they both suppose to be biological instead of mechanical primarily?

With.the rings filtering the water first, it traps debris which is filter floss job to do?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

sayurasem said:


> Qurious about these setup. Your setup is like the standard eheim setup except like 10 more times better.
> 
> My question is why does people go with Bio rings first then floss then coco puffs? What I'd the difference between Bio rings and coco puffs, aren't they both suppose to be biological instead of mechanical primarily?
> 
> With.the rings filtering the water first, it traps debris which is filter floss job to do?


Filter floss would clog up faster being first. Biorings will trap big pieces of debris without getting clogged. Floss should always be last just for the smallest particles. Of course half of that seems moot really if you run a sponge on your intake as no big pieces get in anywhere. lol.


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

randyl said:


> Question: If I use 1 canister filter maybe plus a sponge filter to keep ammonia/no2 at 0, and have no3 under control. What does the extra filtration give me?


The ability to make really cool posts of course.


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## Pen3 (Jan 2, 2007)

Mines similar for a 25gal cube. Just a tiny bit more filtration.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

If you keep shrimps in the filter they probably get more room ;-) May I ask...hmm... how is the water quality in your tank? :biggrin:




Pen3 said:


> Mines similar for a 25gal cube. Just a tiny bit more filtration.


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

madness said:


> Not much. The biggest reason that people do it is to keep nitrates under control so if you already have them under control then you probably don't need this level of filtration.


I appreciate your reply. Thanks.


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## GEM 35shrimps (May 1, 2012)

GeToChKn said:


> So the powerhouse stuff controls the pH as well like a active substrate as well as bio filtration? Wow, store near me carries it. $100 for 1L ? How long before the buffering effect of it wears out?


PowerHouse keep pH stable for 4 years, while soil only does only 10months-1year and even shorter when using under gravel filter. I buy a little cheaper than you as I usually buy in bulk amount, But yes there are so expensive.



Bandit1200 said:


> The ability to make really cool posts of course.


Believe me sir, this is not about coolness at all. 

If I like to make a cool tank or want to show off, I would spend the money on a fancy ADA lamp or those ADA glass goods not this 12L, 100USD a liter media that hiding inside the canister and another 3 canisters that, again, hided inside the wooden stand as well.


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