# Male Plakat Sold As Female? Or Just An Aggressive Female?



## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

About 3 months ago I purchased what was advertised as 4 female Betta's to add in a tank with a male along with Harlequins and Amanos. The male was in the tank for a month before with the other inhabitants and all was fine. 

When I introduced the 4 "females" there was no aggressive behavior from the male nor females. So I thought all was well! But due to it is not advesed to put females with male Bettas I paid extra close attension for the first couple of weeks to asses them. I found out that 3 of the females were fine, they were submissive to the male and got fat (with what I belive to be eggs). The male was in his prime, flaring occassionally. 

But the problem "female" started to show aggression during this stage. It started nipping at the Betta Splendens tail, causing in the end, quite serious damage. I had a 12g on standby for this and I had to seperate them. I put the male Betta Splendens in it to heal his fins with aquarium salt to prevent infection as well as a high protein diet. 

Also with my suspect male Plakat I noticed he started to pay more attention to the females. He, or she didnt flare at all but did sort of round them up and stay close the largest female. But the thing I dont understand is that it looks very much like a small/juvenile female betta. So I cant really blame the LFS for selling it as one, especially as they have limited knowledge anyways! 

As it stands now I have decided to put the definate male Betta back in the original tank with the females as his fins are healed fully. I put the suspect Plakat into the tank the injured male came from. But just to confirm with the picture and experience anyone has had on here, is it a male or female betta? Thanks in advance!

Swan

*Bellow: Suspect Male Plakat, Sold As Female (sorry for bad quality)*









*Bellow: Fin Damage On Male After Confrontation*


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Ohh and before anyone complains that I shouldnt have let it happen, here is a picture of the male now after I healed him up!

Swan


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## weluvbettas (Aug 27, 2010)

I believe its a female . Probally just a very aggresive one. Females can just be as bad as males sometimes.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Maybe. But a friend of mine who will probably comment on this thread soon, also had this problem. In fact I belive we both got out females from the same LFS. But when he seperated his female (suspect Plakat male) it started making a bubble nest. A attribute only the males do. So it must be a male surely?

Swan


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## luke20037 (Jan 24, 2010)

exactly the same problem swan, not sure if mines a plakat male but it has definitly shown aggresion to my other male, enough to kill him! When I introduced a new male betta the same problem occured(flaring gills and such) yet the 3 other females showed no aggresion. When I put the "female/male plakat" into a spare tank it started to make a bubble nest, is this not a male behaviour? 

Just to add swan and I brought the females from the same lfs unbeknown to us that there was problems.


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## weluvbettas (Aug 27, 2010)

Luke your betta is just a male veil tail with some fin damage you can tell its a male by it body and tail. 
Swam some females make nests too. Its not very commom though. I read about it online it some females believe they are males and build nests.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

weluvbettas said:


> Luke your betta is just a male veil tail with some fin damage you can tell its a male by it body and tail.
> Swam some females make nests too. Its not very commom though. I read about it online it some females believe they are males and build nests.


Thanks for the reply. But my females looks like Lukes one. None of them behave like males and I bet Lukes other females are similar to his supect Plakat one?

Swan


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

One tell-tale sign for a female is the horizontal lines (2 lines) running through the body.
You have a female. Females will attack males as well. Only closely related betas can be kept together for a long period of time.

Oh, if you're trying to breed them, let them have visual contact not physical contact. Only until the horizontal stripe turns vertical will the female be ready to mate.


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## weluvbettas (Aug 27, 2010)

If they have two horizontal lines down the body it means there stressed or nervous.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

weluvbettas said:


> If they have two horizontal lines down the body it means there stressed or nervous.


and they're females.


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## luke20037 (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for clarification so annoying when Lfs sell you what they describe but is totally different!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I wouldn't blame the Lfs. They are hard to distinguish unless you've raised them.

Another sign is the finnage. The male's finnage even though short are a bit longer and the branching are much more distinct.

The other sign is the overall roundness of the abdomen.
Here are some articles on plakats
http://bettysplendens.com/articles/catview.imp?catid=883


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Swan - try to get a clearer pic and I'll tell you if it's a male or female 

Luke - your fish pictured is def a male. The head and stocky body is a dead giveaway. Look at his mouth how it curves up more then a female.

mistergreen - males will get the horizontal stripes if they get really sick or stressed as well.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

The first one looks like a female to me, the second a male, altho I am no expert. Do either of these "females" have an oviposter - a little white raised looking dot on their underside where the eggs come out? It's not always visible so even if you don't see one it's not a definite thing that it must be a male, but it is helpful in determining sex.

I've never heard that only females get stress stripes - but now that I think about it I've only ever seen stress stripes on females.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Are the horizontal stripes a sign of stress and stress only? Or can they be natural? And I am in the process of taking a better picture of the Betta male/female in question. Its a young juvenile though, even for a female it would be small so sexing may be even trickier. Thanks for the help guys!

Swan


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

speedie408 said:


> Luke - your fish pictured is def a male. The head and stocky body is a dead giveaway. Look at his mouth how it curves up more then a female.


The mouth is not necessarily a male/female thing. It's a lineage thing. I've had females with that mouth.
Luke- I think it's a male too.


And the stripes are normal. When a the fish is not stressed, and the lines are there, it means it's a female.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> The mouth is not necessarily a male/female thing. It's a lineage thing. I've had females with that mouth.


Not saying I don't believe you but I'd love to see a female with that mouth type. :hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Stressed or subdominant fish will display those stripes whether they're male or female. So those stripes are not a sure "tell."

You might try candling your fish (put it in a clear cup with a bright light behind it) to see if you can see yellow ovaries.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

speedie408 said:


> Not saying I don't believe you but I'd love to see a female with that mouth type. :hihi:


you're killing me. All you have to do is google. A little blurry but you get the point. It is a confirmed female; article here:
http://www.bettysplendens.com/articles/page.imp?articleid=4193
Notice the girls have a light band on the body but the blonds are much harder to see if it exists at all.










My girl and her daughters sadly were given away or died off a long time ago. She had a great personality with her weird mouth.

And LUKE, I changed my mind... You have a girl there... The caudal and tail fins are too short.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

haha I was just pulling your chain. But I don't see the mouth in any of those females. 

Just looking at those fish in the link you posted, any experienced betta breeder can tell those are all females.


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## luke20037 (Jan 24, 2010)

I thought that another reason for the lines to change was when they become sexually active?

And if mine is a female, swans too, isnt it really rare for two females to show signs of male aggression and other quality's, even to the point of them both building bubble nests?

Also found this picture, as you said how easy it is to google, this male plakat which has almost the exact same finnage as mine?










http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forum...-your-betta-bettas-male-or-female-114068.html


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

wendyjo said:


> The first one looks like a female to me, the second a male, altho I am no expert. Do either of these "females" have an oviposter - a little white raised looking dot on their underside where the eggs come out? It's not always visible so even if you don't see one it's not a definite thing that it must be a male, but it is helpful in determining sex.
> 
> I've never heard that only females get stress stripes - but now that I think about it I've only ever seen stress stripes on females.


+1 on wendyjo's point. If you can see an oviposter it is definately a female.


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

luke, when they are sexually active, the female will show vertical bands. 
The horizontal stripes cannot be used as a yardstick as both stressed male/female will have the horizontal stripes.

http://www.oneworldinternetcafe.com/betta/breeding_betta_fish.html
if you go to the link, you can see two female betas, the first(blue) you can see the vertical bands that I am talking about.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

luke20037 said:


> I thought that another reason for the lines to change was when they become sexually active?
> 
> And if mine is a female, swans too, isnt it really rare for two females to show signs of male aggression and other quality's, even to the point of them both building bubble nests?
> 
> ...


Im with Luke here. That confirmed male Plakat looks the exact same as my suspect one. Infact theres little differenace at all! I looked today and there was no 'Oviposter' that was visable on it either. I will get a picture up of it later today. 

Swan


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

luke20037 said:


> I thought that another reason for the lines to change was when they become sexually active?


I think so... For sure, only females get vertical stripes, and a ovipositor when they're ready.

Laura is right. Horizontal lines are a sign of submission as well.
Here are my babies. Both males and females show lines... But when the males have matured, the lines go away.


























I raised them with their dad mainly because I don't have the space and I hear they'd become more normal bettas that way.

I hear that when females don't have males around or that they find the male unsuitable to mate with, yes the girls make the decision , they'd build bubble nests and reject and even will kill the male (very rare).


Can you make your betta flare with a mirror? Maybe the finnage is easier to see.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You know, aside from the issue whether your short-finned betta is male or female, the issue remains that it seems to be a very dominant/aggressive fish, and may start having issues with the other bettas in the tank if you haven't separated it out.

Keeping Betta splendens together in the same tank is always a challenge even when keeping just females in a "sorority" tank. IMO keeping both males and females together in a tank this small is just inviting problems as those fish reach sexual maturity. 

If you really want to keep both male and female Bettas together in the same tank then I encourage you to either try and find some "true" wild-caught Betta splendens or go with one of the other Betta species that are not as aggressive by nature. http://smp.ibcbettas.org/ is a really great resource.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> You know, aside from the issue whether your short-finned betta is male or female, the issue remains that it seems to be a very dominant/aggressive fish, and may start having issues with the other bettas in the tank if you haven't separated it out.
> 
> Keeping Betta splendens together in the same tank is always a challenge even when keeping just females in a "sorority" tank. IMO keeping both males and females together in a tank this small is just inviting problems as those fish reach sexual maturity.
> 
> If you really want to keep both male and female Bettas together in the same tank then I encourage you to either try and find some "true" wild-caught Betta splendens or go with one of the other Betta species that are not as aggressive by nature. http://smp.ibcbettas.org/ is a really great resource.


X2 

Plus, wild bettas are much more rewarding to keep. :hihi:


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> X2
> 
> Plus, wild bettas are much more rewarding to keep. :hihi:


Why are they more rewarding?

Swan


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

They're more unusual, they're more interactive with each other, they have unique and gorgeous color patterns, fascinating courtship rituals that you could observe in your tank if you go with some of the mouthbrooding species... :hihi:


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Don't forget, much more expensive.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Price has come down in the past few years on wild bettas. There's more and more breeders who are pumping out babies from some of these wild strains like rabbits. It's not Splendens cheap but alot more afordable than years past, that's for sure. Tank raised wild bettas are also more resilient to disease than their wild caught counterparts so that makes it alot easier to keep these fish now as well. 

Sorry for going OT. 



Swan900 said:


> Why are they more rewarding?
> 
> Swan


Check out my 120-P (2nd to last page) in my sig. You'll see the "King of Bettas" there.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

I like your wild Betta speedie. But me and Luke20037 were discussing it today and we were both adament it would be near enough impossible to get them here in the UK. Its a shame  Wont stop me looking know, because you never know one might crop up at a decent LFS.

But if there tank bred how can they still be called wild? How many generations do they have to be before they are counted as not wild? Or is the term 'wild' just used as a common name for that type of betta?

Swan


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## luke20037 (Jan 24, 2010)

To answer a previous post obviously the answer was to remove the offending fish and problem solved. This still doesn't answer the main question of male or female there must be a way of 100% knowing whether it's male or female?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I have no idea about the availability in the UK, but here in the USA at least the prices are dropping by the month. So it's definitely worth taking a look... any fish clubs or do your LFSs work with any reputable importers?



Swan900 said:


> But if there tank bred how can they still be called wild? How many generations do they have to be before they are counted as not wild? Or is the term 'wild' just used as a common name for that type of betta?
> 
> Swan


The issue isn't really whether they're F1 or F10- but whether or not they've been crossed with domesticated bettas resulting in the super-aggressive domesticated genes. "True" wild Betta splendens are not nearly as aggressive as domesticated Betta splendens as they have not endured generation upon generation of breeding for sport fighting. Most domesticated bettas in the hobby today still come from those original Asian fighting lines... and the fighting "sport" unfortunately is still going strong in Asia.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Does the fish in the first pic always have those stripes? To me they do look like stress stripes, and again I am not saying males don't get stress stripes, but I have never seen a male with them. I see females with them all the time at the pet store, and typically if you just put the fish in your cart, away from the other fish, the stripes disappear in a few minutes.


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## Swan900 (Apr 27, 2010)

Yes the Betta in the first image always has those stripes. Its in an isolated 12g at the momment and still has them. Could they have them due to my food has alot of the B Carotene, causing colours to be more vibrant? Ive covered most options and see no reason for it to be stressed. Still not sure if its male of female yet, need to get a better image on here!

Swan


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2010)

beta can be stressed with too much lighting also.


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## ILovePonies (Dec 2, 2010)

Hey, everyone! I have a question related to Betta gender identity as well. I bought a Betta fish about a week ago at a pet store. It was labeled "veiltail female", which is exactly what it looks like. I read up on Bettas before I bought the fish, and I didn't question "her" gender because she always has two stripes going from her mouth to her tail. This is the only fish I own, so it is alone in the tank. Yesterday, I left for a few hours and came back to a bubble nest in "her" tank. Now, if the stripes are definite indicators that the fish is a female, and the bubble nest is a definite indicator that the fish is a male, what is my fish??


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

Females blow bubbles too...just not huge nests like males.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

ILovePonies said:


> Hey, everyone! I have a question related to Betta gender identity as well. I bought a Betta fish about a week ago at a pet store. It was labeled "veiltail female", which is exactly what it looks like. I read up on Bettas before I bought the fish, and I didn't question "her" gender because she always has two stripes going from her mouth to her tail. This is the only fish I own, so it is alone in the tank. Yesterday, I left for a few hours and came back to a bubble nest in "her" tank. Now, if the stripes are definite indicators that the fish is a female, and the bubble nest is a definite indicator that the fish is a male, what is my fish??


Pictures speak a thousand words. Got any? :icon_cool


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## ILovePonies (Dec 2, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> Pictures speak a thousand words. Got any? :icon_cool


Thanks for the quick response! Here are some pictures... I have noticed that the stripes have faded slowly throughout the week. I think he or she may have been stressed out at first...

This is my first time posting pictures, so I'll use the picture tool and paste the urls to make sure it works...
Last week:








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5226504917/
Today:








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5226504955/
Bubble Nest:








http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/5227101640/


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Pictures aren't really clear but it could be a Plakat male. And yes, males also have the horizontal stripes when stressed.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

speedie408 said:


> Pictures aren't really clear but it could be a Plakat male. And yes, males also have the horizontal stripes when stressed.


+1. When in doubt, I always look from above for head and mouth structure.


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## Jords2348 (Feb 26, 2012)

*Plakat male or female Betta*

How can i tell if my Betta is a male plakat or just a female it looks like it has an ovipositor but it has built a nest and is very aggressive towards other males it also has long ventral fins


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## TheJadeShrimp (Oct 13, 2011)

lauraleellbp said:


> Keeping Betta splendens together in the same tank is always a challenge even when keeping just females in a "sorority" tank. IMO keeping both males and females together in a tank this small is just inviting problems as those fish reach sexual maturity.


+1! I reading through the post and I was going to post this. But I see someone already has.

In a bigger tank, you MIGHT be able to keep a male and female. But only if you have a big tank and A LOT of hiding places.


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## FishyBloop (Jan 31, 2013)

*Question?*

I honestly have no idea if this is a female or a male, though at the store, it was labeled "female."

She has since, made a bubble nest three times; when placing her in with my halfmoon, she damaged his fins severely (monitored, but she wouldn't let go before I could take her out), and when put in with a veiltail, she flared up at him and tried defying his "alpha" stance.

So, I'm a little confused. Do I have a male, or a masculine female?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Going to need much better (more close and clear) pictures of her ventral area to see if she has an ovipositor or not....


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Reminds me of my female, same blue combtail. Shes the size of a male betta and (was) a top betta in the sorority. Mine clearly has an ovipositor tho

Heres mine


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## jemminnifener (Nov 23, 2011)

The only way I know how to tell a male betta from a female betta is the presence of an ovipositor on a female betta. It just looks like a white dot behind the ventral fins. Take a look at some pictures online to get a good sense of what to look for.

Found this useful article: http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/betta1/ss/How-To-Determine-Betta-Gender.htm


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

If they drop eggs it's a pretty good indicator as well


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## Siggav (Jun 29, 2009)

I had female bettas with obvious oviposter that ended up looking pretty much like male plakats and some of them made bubblenests. They lived together peacefully for close to 2 years, then they got old and cranky and I had to separate some of them before they eventually passed.










I know of one female betta that made a bubblenest in tank on her own, dropped eggs and put them in the nest by herself as well. Obviously not fertilised so nothing happened and she ate them after a bit but still females do make bubblenests sometimes.


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## FishyBloop (Jan 31, 2013)

*[:*

Thanks, guys! It took me a while to really figure it out. I finally had a chance to see the lines running through her body and determined her ovipositor is REALLY small. I think she was at the top of the class and/or acts like a male. The "How to Determine" site was really helpful! Thanks so much.


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