# My 20G Low Tech Dwarf Hair grass and HC with 0.75 wpg



## greenknight

I read a lot of forums before I started my 20 G tank.

My goal was to grow Dwarf Hairgrass (DHG) and HC only 
in the beginning. I used Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix
and my plants are spreading roots thru gravel after only 3 days.

I was torn between emersed or submersed method so I took
an approach in middle.

I elevated the gravel in near 2 back corners and planted HC
piece by piece. And in the front I planted DHG in small clumps
using hemostat. 

I used my own methods of acclimitization for the plants as I received
them few days ago in the middle of a blizzard. 
I will post about that later in next post.

My specs:

Tank: 20 G
Substrate: Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix 1" - 1.5 " 
gravel layer on top 1" - 2"
Lighting: 15 W Sunlight 6500K tube from Petco *(thats .75 WpG)*
Flora: Eleocharis acicularis (DHG) 
Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC)

To be added: Java Moss
Neons and black stripe tetra
5 Red Cherry Shrimp
5 RCS
1 Otocinclus
1 Nerite snail
1 small freshwater clam


----------



## greenknight

forgot to tmention...I filled the water so the DHG was submerged but it isnt high enough
to submerge HC, which is now being grown emersed since its a higher elevation.


----------



## TwFG2

I would like to see pictures if you have any.


----------



## greenknight

I am trying to upload pics taken thru my camera phone...
I will take pics thru my digital cam next time...

hopefully by tomorrow..i will have them up


----------



## lauraleellbp

Are you going to keep this tank as an emersed setup, or are you planning to fill it once the carpet grows in?

I suspect you'll have to upgrade both lighting and add CO2 if you fill it to maintain the carpet with your choice of plants... but I'll certainly be interested in seeing if you can make it work!


----------



## greenknight

*my technique...*

Well ..I decided to add a half a cap of Excel to the tank so I raised the water level just enough to submerge all the HC and Hairgrass (EA).

Day 1
1. Now from beginning..once I got the plants I filled a tupperware container with cool water (not the Cologne..lol) and placed the pots in it.
Reasoning: Plants were moist but needed to absorb water lost in days.

2. Now since the plants were sealed in a box and without light for 2 days
during shipping, I decided to give them light as opposed to advice I got
elsewhere to let them sit in the dark overnight.
Reasoning: Plants were deprived of food for past 2 days so let them
get re-energized so they can deal with the stress. I mean if you rescue
a person trapped in a cave..you wont just give him rest..you will first
provide food and rest.

Day 2
3. Next day I took the HC out of the pots and the fuzzy sponge separated
easily and I just placed the whole bunch on top of the gravel.

4. It takes a long time to separate Hairgrass (DHG) clumps, so I laid
out a disposable plastic tablecover on the carpet and put newspaper
and then papaer towels on top of it. Then Sprayed the paper towels
to soak them wet.

5. I broke apart the DHG as much as I could in to small clumps, some
individual blades, but kept all the roots intact as much as I could.

6. Placed the clumps on wet tissue paper and kept them soaked by 
spraying every few minutes.

7. Used a hemostat to plant the DHG clumps only deep enough to be
below the gravel, so gravel can hold it. 

8. I filled the tank with enough water to emerse the DHG and HC.
Routinely sprayed water after planting throughout the day and 
gave it 12 hours light

Day 3
9. Filled tank with enough water to submerge DHG only.

10. Took out the HC (3 sets) and separated them into medium to small
sized clumps with some individual plantlets, and re-planted them
back into the 2 rear corner areas which have elevated gravel.

11. Sprayed water frequently.

Day 4
12. HC shows sign of growth

13. some small root growths visible from DHG cliumps puprposely planted
against the tank wall in front.

Day 5
14. More root growth of DHG, new leaf growth on HC

Day 6
15. My Excel came so I decided to add half a capful of it. I thought it
might tbe too much so to dulite it filled the tank with enough water to
submerge all the plants only.

So now I have fingers crossed to see how they grow now.


----------



## greenknight

*Pics..*

Pics of the sequence described above.. forgive the blurriness
they are from cameraphone..

...I removed them..not much of any significance


----------



## greenknight

*more pics*

Pics continued


----------



## greenknight

You can see the root growth in the last pic after 4 days


----------



## sparkysko

Hopefully that works well. I did hairgrass in a similar 20g with 8x the lighting, lol, but it grew in the shaded areas too somewhat. The best thing I can do to slow down the growth of it is to keep messing with it. Seems to frown at me and pause for a week everytime I replant it in the same tank (I always end up replanting it about three times because I'm convinced I can break the clumps up smaller).

I bet you to reconsider adding java moss. Once you add it, it will eventually get into the lawn and crowd out the grass. Physical removal will be difficult because the moss will weld itself to your substrate, causing you to rip out the grass as well.


----------



## JennaH

> I bet you to reconsider adding java moss. Once you add it, it will eventually get into the lawn and crowd out the grass. Physical removal will be difficult because the moss will weld itself to your substrate, causing you to rip out the grass as well.


+1 i am constantly picking java moss out of the hairgrass in my lowtech 10g, even using tweezers i somehow manage to grab the hairgrass along with the java moss...


----------



## BeachBum2012

Looking good. I'm anxious to see how this turns out.


----------



## greenknight

OK... now you guys have scared me about adding java moss...

I have bought driftwood and was planning to grow java moss on it.

Now.. is there any type of moss which wont destroy my DHG...

Also.. today I noticed 2 little baby snails (i think they r snails cuz they r so small)
sliming around on the tank wall.

Not only that..I can see small brine shrimp like creatures floatig in the water...
copepods ..maybe ? I am actually happy about these critters as they help me to
cycle the tank naturally per the Walstad Method. 

But, I'm worried about a population explosion of these hitchihiking juvee snails
.. will I have to hire some Assassins to get rid of them ?


----------



## Taysius

Something for your moss idea might be ripping apart a marimo ball and securing it to the wood. I've never done it myself but have heard of other doing it. It wouldn't get tangled in anything.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I tried this low light type setting with emersed HC and it grew fine until I submerged it, and then the HC never grew at all and eventually all died off. I am not sure if it was the lack of CO2 from submerged low tech or the lower light from having to pass through the water. This was in a 15 gallon long (24" long). I hope your setup works out for you.


----------



## greenknight

my LFS has the marimo balls actually.. I dont like to have balls floating around in my
tank... so you're saying..it will grow like any other moss if ripped apart ?

it wont naturally revert back to ball form ? Will Marimo be as hard to rip out as Java
moss if I get tired of it ?


----------



## greenknight

2wheels.. may be it was the lack of CO2... thats why I decided to supplement my
tank with Excel initially until I add fish n shrimp which would provide CO2.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I did mist an Excel mixture when it was emersed and then dosed Excel as per directions once the tank was submerged. It just never took. I'll follow your tank to see if you have better success than I did and maybe try again at some point.


----------



## greenknight

thanks 2wheels.... now im worried about my HC.

I did notice that the DHG grew roots,,I can even see new plantlets coming up
after only 7 days ... but the HC's roots and new growth is very modest.

I wanted to add that the tank is situated next to a window with indirect diffuse light.
so that will give a couple watts at least to the tank and help in growth.

But, I have been giving the tank 12-14 hours of light daily.

Today, I filed the tank up to the top completely. I wasnt happy about the water level
being uneven as the floor is uneven and I didnt shim the tank beforehand.

But..3-4 clusters of HC came up diring filling.. while the grass is solidly rooted.

And, I added a capful of Excel ..so lets see now


----------



## greenknight

2wheels .. what was your substrate for the tank with HC that melted ?


----------



## 2wheelsx2

I was using Eco-complete. I see you're using soil which may make a difference as it's richer in nutrients.


----------



## greenknight

2wheelsx2 said:


> I was using Eco-complete. I see you're using soil which may make a difference as it's richer in nutrients.


I sure hope so... my plants are very green right now...

so far no sign of yellowing or decay and they have been submerged for about 3 days now.

per the Walstad "el natural" method I need to stock it with fish immediately to keep the
mini ecosystem cycle going, so tomorrow I will go to LFS and add some Neons.

I'm gonna add some driftwood and a Moss of some sort later when I figure out which moss wont
take over my tank.


----------



## Tuiflies

I have Christmas moss on my DW and it stays together pretty well. It's not stringy like the Java so I don't find bits left over on the gravel (after triming) as long as I'm careful.


----------



## JennaH

> I have Christmas moss on my DW and it stays together pretty well. It's not stringy like the Java so I don't find bits left over on the gravel (after triming) as long as I'm careful.


+1 i see a difference between the java and xmas moss in my 10g as well..


----------



## kwheeler91

no offense, but wont the hc stay short in the back and then the DHG get tall in the front, making the layout kind of flat since the DHG is planted in a "valley"?


----------



## greenknight

kwheeler91 said:


> no offense, but wont the hc stay short in the back and then the DHG get tall in the front, making the layout kind of flat since the DHG is planted in a "valley"?


I dont know if its visible fromthe pics..but the 2 corner areas where HC is
planted is raised a bit...It was raised even higher...but I thought it would
be too high for the HC to grow roots into the substrate so I flattened the
gravel a little.

I hope to place some rocks among the HC add height and some driftwood
also. I realized that the valley is actually sloping back wards in the middle, 
which is not what I wanted...so I guess I will let the DHG grow higher
in the back and trim it to compensate accordingly.


----------



## greenknight

ok.. today I added a small Java fern .. and this plant labeled wisteria...

under which the scientific name is given Hygrophilia difformis.. but it looks nothing
like that !


----------



## greenknight

*new plant pics*

Ok.. the Java Fern is the dark green one.

But is that really hygrophilia difformis ? aka wisteria ?


----------



## greenknight

*tank has really grown in 8 days*

I didnt realize it until I compared todays with pic from day 1 of planting
8 days ago... hairgrass has really grown and taken hold.. and it looks 
a little bit yellowish and I trimmed the brownish yellow parts yesterday.

top pic is March 3 (5 days ago).. bottom pic is today.. Mar. 8


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

That's java fern? What variety was it sold as?


----------



## AlexXx

i dont think thats wisteria... :/


----------



## greenknight

The Java Fern was sold as :

Microsorum pteropus


----------



## greenknight

AlexXx said:


> i dont think thats wisteria... :/


the Wisteria was sold as :

Hygrophila difformis 

The Java fern is the darker plant ...that I know is a fern.

But this wisteria.. what is this ????


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

greenknight said:


> The Java Fern was sold as :
> 
> Microsorum pteropus





greenknight said:


> The Java fern is the darker plant ...that I know is a fern.


Well, it's a fern alright. We know it's not Malus domestica because it doesn't have apples.  The question is, is it a java fern? It doesn't look like any M. pteropus that I'm familiar with. In fact, it looks a lot more like a small Bolbitis (African water fern): http://www.akvariumas.net/duomenu_baze/augalai/bolbitis_heudelotii.htm

Maybe someone else can provide an ID.


----------



## greenknight

Aquarist fist .. thank you so much.. I am a complete noob.. it does look like
an African water fern... its a darker green like it..leaf structure is similar.

now what about this plant they sold to me as Wisteria above ?


----------



## Tuiflies

+1 on the Bolbitis. That's a good score though, as it's usually about double the price up here. 

I think it's probably the emmersed form of Wisteria (which is drastically different from the submersed form) although it does kind of look like a Bacopa sp.


----------



## greenknight

Tuiflies said:


> +1 on the Bolbitis. That's a good score though, as it's usually about double the price up here.
> 
> I think it's probably the *emmersed form of Wisteria* (which is drastically different from the submersed form) although it does kind of look like a Bacopa sp.


 
Yes..I guess I'm lucky.. Paid $4 for the bolbitis.

I didn't know that emersed and submersed will look that different..
and yes I bought it in emersed form from Petco.


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

Bingo, Tuiflies! See 4th picture here: http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Decor Hygrophila.htm

greenknight: Petco/Petsmart are generally not a good choice to buy anything alive. If you don't have a quality store in your area, the Swap 'n Shop area on this board will be the best and cheapest option.


----------



## greenknight

Thank you again *Aquarist Fist *and *Tuiflies*... appreciate your feedback
and ID help. 

After I read up on these two plants which I bought accidentally.. I am so happy to 
know that they are easy to grow and Wisteria especially will help a lot in a NPT
style tank as it helps to cycle the tank a lot as it grows very fast.

Initially I was going for an Iwagumi style look... but I couldnt resist having these
beautiful plants... I hope it flowers one day ?

Now I am so into NPTs that I am planning a couple more 10 G versions


----------



## oneduduboy

Did you miracle grow organic mix straight out of the bag? I'm a newbie to the planted tank and was thinking of using miracle grow. thanks


----------



## greenknight

oneduduboy said:


> Did you miracle grow organic mix straight out of the bag? I'm a newbie to the planted tank and was thinking of using miracle grow. thanks


Yes. I dumped Miracle Grow into the tank (1" to 1.5") and let it sit there
for couple days to air out the ammonia. Excess ammonia is very volatile
and it will evaporate, so scientifically speaking, that is sound.

...but how much ammonia evaporates, that I dont know, but it does help
according to other forums I have read.

But besides that, I did NOT mineralize the topsoil, as in the Natural method,
you are not supposed to. The whole point is to keep the tank as low tech
as possible and so far it has been nice for me.

I am using my Whisper 20 filter for water movement as the cartridge is
empty without any carbon.


----------



## greenknight

*green tea ..and Umbrella plant*

Water is beginning to look like my favorite Green tea...
very light green tannish color... but its a normal part of starting up
a NPT.

I hadnt done a single water change, so I did a 25% water change
and added 3 bunches of Umbrella plant and added 7 Neons.

So, Flora so far is: 
DGH, HC, Wisteria, African water Fern, and Umbrella plant

Now..I know what I have done..although I realized when I came home
with it and googled it and found out its not a truly aquatic plant and
will rot in a few months. (Spathiophyllum wallisii) 

Its labeled for Aquariums, not terrariiums, and even the petco manager
said it is 100% aquatic. Ok.. I learned my lesson, no more plant buying
from Petco. Unfortunately, when I put a WTB plants in the Swap n Shop
forum, nobody offered me any.

Anyways, I need to cycle the tank water to cycle and prevent full blown
green water.

Here are few pics of Neons and the plants.


----------



## greenknight

should i let this Umbrella plant (spathiophyllum wallisii) sit in my tank..or
get a refund at PetCO and get someting else like Argentine or Amazon sword ?


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

Print out the article and return it. Then never buy there again. The WTBs in SNS often don't work as well. Just buy what's offered. Most common plants are offered by someone at any given time. 

Swords are always a good idea in settings like yours. You may also want to look at the several Cryptocoryne species...very good low light plants.


----------



## greenknight

Aquarist.. thank you !..... I will get one of the Swords then.


----------



## StevenLeeds

Tuiflies said:


> +1 on the Bolbitis. That's a good score though, as it's usually about double the price up here.
> 
> I think it's probably the emmersed form of Wisteria (which is drastically different from the submersed form) although it does kind of look like a Bacopa sp.



That's for sure wisteria. All of those leaves will die off, don't panic and pull the plants. The new leaves will follow shortly and then that stuff will eventually be tough to control... It grows really well in set up like yours...


----------



## greenknight

StevenLeeds said:


> That's for sure wisteria. All of those leaves will die off, don't panic and pull the plants. The new leaves will follow shortly and then that stuff will eventually be tough to control... It grows really well in set up like yours...


oh. wow.. thanks for the heads up otherwise I would have probably 
thrown it out.

Well I did take out the Umbrella plant and exchanged it at Petco for
the beautiful tall Argentine Swords... theres about 5-6 bunches in there.

1 stem fell of and I planted it too...will they grow like that without roots ?


----------



## greenknight

My tank has a pH of 6.8 , slightly acidic due to the Organic potting soil which has
peat and tree bark which rlease tannins and make it acidic and give my tank the tea
color. Seems I was unnecessariloy worried about "green water" , its just a normal
tea color due to the potting soil.

I'm assuming in a few weeks or a month, it will clear up more ?

I got 3 more Neons yesterday from Walmart... the previous 7 were just loving it in
my tank...and there were 3 left in the WM tanks which felt so lonely..so I got the
3 remaining for a total of 10 Neons now.

I'm sort of going with the South American theme , although the African water fern
is out of place, its color provides a rich green which is needed right now.

I was wondering what other fish I could add besides 2-3 Oto's which I plan to get next
week ???

How many shrimp (CRS, RCS) could I add on top of those fish and Oto's ?


----------



## mott

Sorry to tell you that is not Bolbitis if you bought it at petsmart, it's a non aquatic fern. It will die and rot in your tank, might as well pull it now...


----------



## greenknight

*Mystery Fern & Parameters*



mott said:


> Sorry to tell you that is not Bolbitis if you bought it at petsmart, it's a non aquatic fern. It will die and rot in your tank, might as well pull it now...


Wow.. and the mystery of the fern continues.. !

Plants look so different when they are young...and when they are grown
emersed... 

I am sort of looking to create a South American theme..maybe a regional 
biotope if I am lucky (amazon..tributary.or something similar).

I do have the requisite "tea water" right now.

Current Parameters - Jungle Brand *5 in 1 dipstick test*:

pH - 6.8 or less
Nitrate - 20
*Nitrite - 3.0*
GH - 75
KH - 40

Keep in mind it has only been 14 days since plants were planted emersed
and about 10-12 days since the tank was filled.

I'm supposed to do 25% water changes per the Walstad method in the
beginning, but I have only done one have been topping off. 

*So, my question is, whats causing the relatively high nitrite levels ? *
My fish arent bothered, they seem so happy and in their environment.
I can tell cuz I have kept Tetra for 10 years, but never in a truly planted
tank.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

greenknight said:


> *So, my question is, whats causing the relatively high nitrite levels ? *
> My fish arent bothered, they seem so happy and in their environment.
> I can tell cuz I have kept Tetra for 10 years, but never in a truly planted
> tank.


Your tank is cycling because the plant mass is too low. You need more fast growers in there ASAP.


----------



## greenknight

2wheelsx2 said:


> Your tank is cycling because the plant mass is too low. You need more fast growers in there ASAP.


True, I rather add more plants..than do water changes as it only invites
algae and green water.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

It'll probably be a good idea to do a large water change until you can get some more plants in there though.


----------



## greenknight

I am scared of doing more than 25% so as to not upset the balance...

OK..I will do 25% change...and then test..if its not stabilized..I will do 25% again.


----------



## ldk59

greenknight said:


> True, I rather add more plants..than do water changes as it only invites
> algae and green water.


Did the manager at Petco tell you this when he sold you the "aquarium" plants? :icon_twis

There is nothing wrong with doing 50% water changes, even the same day the tank is set up... water changes will only help your tank.

As my aqua-mentor (my dad) told me back when I started this hobby (in the 1960s)

The solution is dilution!

Still applies today...

Good luck with your new tank :hihi:

Larry


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

One, two, three...

1. A tank with 3 ppm is not balanced, so go and change water! 

2. Throw away the dipstick tests, they are horribly inaccurate.

3. Stop buying at Petco now and forever. Selling emerse Wisteria is one thing - selling non-aquatic plants is fraud. God, I hate those chains...









4. Plants, lots of plants now. And do NOT get any shrimps within the next few months. Also no more fish until everything is more balanced. 10 tetras in such a new tank is stretching it already.


----------



## greenknight

ldk59 said:


> Did the manager at Petco tell you this when he sold you the "aquarium" plants? :icon_twis
> 
> There is nothing wrong with doing 50% water changes, even the same day the tank is set up... water changes will only help your tank.
> 
> As my aqua-mentor (my dad) told me back when I started this hobby (in the 1960s)
> 
> The solution is dilution!
> 
> Still applies today...
> 
> Good luck with your new tank :hihi:
> 
> Larry


 Thank you *Larry* !

You know, until I came to this forum, I didnt know people were keeping
natural planted tanks since the 60's or 70's !!

alright..will do 50% water change then...
[STRIKE] I have PEtco credit.. so should I go ahead and get the *Amazon sword ?*[/STRIKE] nope..I wont


----------



## greenknight

Aquarist_Fist said:


> One, two, three...
> 
> 1. A tank with 3 ppm is not balanced, so go and change water!
> 
> 2. Throw away the dipstick tests, they are horribly inaccurate.
> 
> 3. Stop buying at Petco now and forever. Selling emerse Wisteria is one thing - selling non-aquatic plants is fraud. God, I hate those chains...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Plants, lots of plants now. And do NOT get any shrimps within the next few months. Also no more fish until everything is more balanced. 10 tetras in such a new tank is stretching it already.


 I learned my lesson.. but unfortunately I keep discovering things every 
day..and now after *Mott *questioned whether its african water
fern, I went back and looked at the leaf structure..and it really does *not*
look like african water fern. 

so..no more buying at petco..I dont know if I can trust any of their 
labels now...since they cant get basic plants right.

I guess..i wont go for Amazon sword either, it might turn out to be
some other semi aquatic species rotting in my tank.

I will be lurking in the swap n Shop from now on for plants.

Thanks for the Shrimp n Fish advice, cuz I was gonna buy shrimp
from Swap n Shop...I can wait :icon_frow

Knowing what you guys know about my organic natural tank..low light
and low tech... can I add mosses..like willow..christmas..etc ?

My HC wont take hold...cuz gravel is too big maybe..but the DGH is
growing like a weed..I love the DHG !!


----------



## mott

greenknight said:


> I learned my lesson.. but unfortunately I keep discovering things every
> day..and now after *Mott *questioned whether its african water
> fern, I went back and looked at the leaf structure..and it really does *not*
> look like african water fern.
> 
> so..no more buying at petco..I dont know if I can trust any of their
> labels now...since they cant get basic plants right.
> 
> I guess..i wont go for Amazon sword either, it might turn out to be
> some other semi aquatic species rotting in my tank.
> 
> I will be lurking in the swap n Shop from now on for plants.
> 
> Thanks for the Shrimp n Fish advice, cuz I was gonna buy shrimp
> from Swap n Shop...I can wait :icon_frow
> 
> Knowing what you guys know about my organic natural tank..low light
> and low tech... can I add mosses..like willow..christmas..etc ?
> 
> My HC wont take hold...cuz gravel is too big maybe..but the DGH is
> growing like a weed..I love the DHG !!



Where in NJ are you? I always have moss that needs a trim, I also have a lot of cherries if you want to work out some kind of deal.


----------



## greenknight

Mott.. thanks for the offer..I will PM you for the cherries when I am ready.

I got CRS on here and they seem to be thriving.. and my neons are still doing good, only 1 died in begining.
That one was weak from the start, probably diseased.

But they are growing big, and I see spawning activity. I have a green forest right now in there,
and the plants are thriving also. 

I will post few pics this weekend to give an update. I am happy since its my First Planted tank,
and I havent had any Algae or fish or fauna deaths... 

beginner's luck I guess  

Now if only I can get Neon fry....


----------



## Burks

I see you have RCS and Red Cherry Shrimp listed, they are one in the same.

Did you mean CRS? If so, they are much more sensitive to water parameters and are not a good starter shrimp.


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

greenknight said:


> I guess..i wont go for Amazon sword either, it might turn out to be
> some other semi aquatic species rotting in my tank.


Wise decision not to shop at Petco anymore. But you actually should a get an Amazon sword plant or two, just because they are amazing, beautiful, and hardy plants. Just get them from a real store or SnS. You also still need real java fern - also an amazing low-light plant. 

Moss is a great idea! I'd stay away from java moss - it's ugly as sin and hard to get out of your tank once it's there. But there are beautiful mosses, often offered for cheap on SnS. Glue the moss to rocks and wood. A tube of Super Glue is your friend.




greenknight said:


> and I havent had any Algae


 Oh, you are so in for a surprise! Algae are coming to get you. They always do. Not today, not tomorrow, but they will come, and they will get you. And then you'll cry. Everyone does.


----------



## greenknight

Burks said:


> I see you have RCS and Red Cherry Shrimp listed, they are one in the same.
> 
> Did you mean CRS? If so, they are much more sensitive to water parameters and are not a good starter shrimp.


 I know now Cherry are hardier, unfortunately I didnt know that when
I ordered the Crystal Reds... but they are doing fine ..for now at least..


I am hoping to set up some more smaller 2.5, 5 and 10 G tanks
so I can transfer the CRS there (I know..I'm getting addicted  )


----------



## greenknight

Aquarist_Fist said:


> Oh, you are so in for a surprise! Algae are coming to get you. They always do. Not today, not tomorrow, but they will come, and they will get you. And then you'll cry. Everyone does.


*Aquarist*.. Thank you so much for the kind words :icon_roll

but seriously, I know it can happen, but I am dosing Excel 1 cap
every other night so maybe thats keeping it at bay.

I plan to stop Excel when the tank stabilizes in a month, its already about
a month old now.


I need to update my Flora and Fauna posted...will do that tomorrow.


----------



## fishyjoe24

Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix, how is the miracle grow potting mix, working out for you. does it really work, and not raise the ph, or kill the fish. because i got a whole bag of it, and would certinly like to try it if it won't harm the plants or fish.


----------



## greenknight

*Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix*



fishyjoe24 said:


> Miracle Grow Organic Potting Mix, how is the miracle grow potting mix, working out for you. does it really work, and not raise the ph, or kill the fish. because i got a whole bag of it, and would certinly like to try it if it won't harm the plants or fish.


 Fishyjoe... its working awesome so far, the keyword here is *Organic.*

So make sure you useMiracle Grow* Organic* Potting Mix.

I just checked my parameters and my Nitrates and Nitrites are Zero.
I didnt take out any wood chips from the mix, and this mix gives my
tank a "tea" colored look, and acidic water which my Neons seem to love.

I can see the females have huge curved bellies, and spawning behavior
with males trying to lure rounded females to spawn. I think they have 
spawned and they seem to be in the moss and thick planted areas 
snacking..probably on the fry.

Which is why I wanna set up few more tanks in similar fashion
and try my luck at breeding the Neons.


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

greenknight said:


> *Aquarist*.. Thank you so much for the kind words :icon_roll
> 
> but seriously, I know it can happen, but I am dosing Excel 1 cap
> every other night so maybe thats keeping it at bay.
> 
> I plan to stop Excel when the tank stabilizes in a month, its already about
> a month old now.
> 
> 
> I need to update my Flora and Fauna posted...will do that tomorrow.


Nah, didn't want to spoil your enthusiasm. It's just that most people go through an algae-free stage with a newly set up tank. But a low-tech setup with Excel is a good way to avoid the nastiest outbreaks. Excel is certainly helps, even though it's no guarantee of course.


----------



## Darth Toro

Just curious. Do you use any carbon in your filter? If not why? I am planning on going to HD today to buy miracle grow organic potting mix and then later purchasing flourite black sand to top it for my 10 gallon that I want to start up. I will be using a small aqueon 10 filter for the tank but was planning on using the carbon cartrige for it. I also have a aqueon 20 that I could use instead but i would think the 10 plus a airstone in the tank would be enough.


----------



## lauraleellbp

I use Purigen these days instead of carbon since it's rechargable and reusable.

Most people leave the carbon out and rely on plants for chemical filtration.


----------



## greenknight

Darth Toro said:


> Just curious. Do you use any carbon in your filter? If not why? I am planning on going to HD today to buy miracle grow organic potting mix and then later purchasing flourite black sand to top it for my 10 gallon that I want to start up. I will be using a small aqueon 10 filter for the tank but was planning on using the carbon cartrige for it. I also have a aqueon 20 that I could use instead but i would think the 10 plus a airstone in the tank would be enough.


as LauraLee said... I leave out the Carbon also and just dropped the Floss
filter pouch in the filter. And that will provide mechanical and biological 
filtration since lots of bacteria will grow on it and debris will turn it brown
within hours to days.

And surprisingly, my tank never gets cloudy and is algae free so far.

I remember when I used to have those "Blue gravel, plastic plant" fish
tanks, water was guaranteed to get cloudy after every water change
and algae was everywhere like white on rice ...

but its amazing how a mini "ecosystem" forms in a planted tank.

Here's one key thing I noticed, which will help you. PLant Biomass is
important in a NPT (natural planted tank). I accumulated plants slowly
in my tank week by week. 

1. When I had only DHG and HC sparsely planted, my tank was turning 
slightly greenish tinge, High Nitrates, High Nitrites.

--- I did a 50% water change and added more plants... greenish tinge
went away, Nitrates, Nitrites went down.

2. I added more plants like Argentine sword, Myriophyllum mattogrossense,
Riccia and Xmas, Moss, Rotala indica.
--- and 25% water change after adding new plants, cuz dirt lifts up,
Nitrates, Nitrites went down more.

3. Finally, I bought 15" long 20 stems of limnophila aquatica from SnS
and some other freebie plants.
--- suddenly my Nitrates and Nitrites Zeroed out. Yes, 0.0
and have stayed down constantly and havent risen a week later.


----------



## greenknight

*update*

Here's what my Tank looks like now: *Warning : Horrible Photography skills* Camera: Fujifilm S5100

http://pbckt.com/sb.da9f

*Flora:* Echinodorus argentinensis (Argentine sword)
Hemianthus callitrichoides (HC)
Eleocharis acicularis (DHG)
Limnophila aquatica
Myriophyllum mattogrossense
Riccia fluitans
Rotala rotundifolia
Vesicularia montagnei (xmas moss)

And in middle I think I have some sort of 
- Narrow leaf Java Fern ( in front of Riccia)
- Bacopa australis (next to heater)

*Fauna:* 9 Neons Tetra - Paracheirodon innesi 
2 or 5 CRS - Caridina cantonensis 
- some of them have died, Neons are picking at them
- Water parameters are ok, 0 nitrites, nitrates, acidic water.


----------



## Darth Toro

Thank you so much. I will try what you all are suggesting. Since i have an aqueon..im not sure if they sell just the floss. But I guess that I could just open the pouch I have up and remove the carbon and then put it back sans carbon....right? How long should I let the miracle grow organic potting mix sit in the tank before I add the flourite black sand? BTW I love the look of your tank...its so natrual. I can't wait but I will add plants gradually. One more thing..when you added those first plants you had the tank filled all the way? Thanks again!!!


----------



## greenknight

Thank you Darth Toro ! but my plants are all over as I just throw them in there
wherever there is space... and I just dont know yet how to photograph aquariums...yet.

and yes..just remove the carbon if its already in there, or most of times they pack
like my Whisper 20, Carbon refills come packed separate with floss. So i dont have to
do anything, just not add carbon.

I let the Miracle Grow OPM sit in my tank dry for 3 days. Then scape it, then add
gravel n scape it. Then planted the DHG and HC and let it sit emersed 2 days , but you
dont have to do that. According to Walstad Method, you could fill it up when you are
done planting the tanks.

Also, it will take many water changes initially, and until you plant it heavily, for Nitrates
Nitrites to go down. And dose excel to stimulate growth.


----------



## Darth Toro

It will be interesting to see if nitrates go down after a while. I only recently got a master test kit and started testing the nitrates because I have a 50 gallon breeder and I lose fish randomly...esp after water changes. I bought 6 ottos for it and all but one died after about 10 days. When I went back to my LFS he said the breeder he gets them from recomends having a reverse osmossis unit. My nitrates are extremly high in the tank..I tested the tap water and it is same there. I went to another LFS and the told me I could try a product called de*nitrate. 

update....just read a thread about the use of de*nitrate in a planted tank..and I will be returning to the store today for a refund and get some more plants instaed!!!!

I will be putting the potting mix in my 10 gallon in a few!!!!!


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

Your LFS guy was either misinformed or intentionally lying to you. There are no otto breeders because ottos breeding in captivity are still more or less a coincidence. Ottos are wild caught and arrive at the LFS in sorry condition (starved, sometimes poisoned), This is why ottos often die within the first two weeks in your tank. It may well be that high nitrates stressed them out of course. How high is "extremely" high?

When you get ottos in the future, make sure to feed them a lot of good stuff right when you get them: algae tablet, cucumber, zucchini, blanched lettuce, etc.


----------



## Darth Toro

good to know about them(Ottos). It is at 20ppm today. It has been as high as 80ppm. 

Ive been doing daily water changes of 20%. I have ten baby Lyretail swords in a breeding net as well in this tank...and amazingly have not lost any of them. Recently I have lost a bunch of neons (still have 9 and the ones I lost were new), a cory adolfi ( was very healthy looking) and the Ottos


----------



## houstonhobby

I'm not an expert but it looks more like peacock fern.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Aquarist_Fist said:


> Your LFS guy was either misinformed or intentionally lying to you. There are no otto breeders because ottos breeding in captivity are still more or less a coincidence.


That's not true. A good friend of mine in Canada had a pretty active Oto breeding setup for many years. He wrote an article about it for TFH (published Feb 2008). Good info about breeding Otos at www.Otocinclus.com.

Sounds like your current water change regimen is keeping the nitrates in a better range, but personally, I'd do larger changes a few times a week (30-50% will actually do more to address buildup). Sounds to me like your tank may have suffered some "Old Tank Syndrome," and this may be why you've had issues losing fish after water changes.

Have you tested your water straight from the tap, and also water that has sat out for 24 hours, versus your tank water? I suspect you especially need to check your kH and gH. If your tank water has "drifted" dramatically from the paramters of the water coming out of your tap, this would explain all the issues you've been having with fish loss. [And the answer will be- keep up the water changes!]


----------



## Darth Toro

First I want to apolgize to Greenknight for hijacking his thread for a bit. I am sorry... I will not ask any more questions unrealted to your posts here any more. This will be it.

I know my LFS owner for many years and I've seen species there that I have never found anywhere else. With that said I know he is trustworthy and deals with people from all over the world (breeders etc).

I have tested the water srtaight from tap. On friday it was somewhere between 40-80ppm on my color chart. Today I tested it after letting it sit in the bucket for 6 hours and added stress coat prior as well as heating it to 77. to find it at 20ppm. I usualy just let the water get to the proper temp straight from the tap and add it. Is that a problem?

I tested kh of the tank which is 35.8ppm and the tap was the same. As for gh the tank was also 35.8 and the tap the same. I am new to testing these too. How dark should the green be for the gh....for it to be passed very light green I needed to add the 3rd drop which would bring it to 53.7ppm and that was a slightly darker green. That was for both the tap and tank tested water for gh. The kh is a little easier for me to read. I think. lol! I am colorblind to an extent..I couldn't pick out the numbers in those charts your given to read as a kid to test for colorblindness. I was told that I have a hard time seeing greens and yellows and differentiating between degrees of those colors.

I will keep up and increase the percentage of the water changes!


----------



## greenknight

*Darth Toro*.. please do post here. Its an interactive learning experience, and I am 
interested in your topic because I want to breed Neons and maybe Oto's for a 
hobby. 

I'm not an expert like *LauraLee*, but having a heavily planted natural tank keeps
the nitrates down very well, mine seem to be comnig up slightly today, but thats
my fault, I have been over feeding to make them spawn.

today in the monrning, the Neons "woke up" before the lights were on, and I added
a quart of water from my Xmass moss jar to the tank, (colder temp) and it was
amazing to see them going off on a "mating" frenzy...

Its pretty much futile to make them spawn at this moment, as they have done before
and I can see them feeding on the fry..

so I am looking forward to making my new 10g where I can place the active male
and females to spawn and remove them when they are done, and repeat the process
every morning until I see lots of fry  It would be so cool to have my own bred Neons.
.......hopefully... thats the plan.


----------



## greenknight

Would a 5 Gallon suffice for spawning and rearing the fry ?

Or should I stick to the 10 gallon ? Cuz I was thinking it would be easier for
the sponge filter setup to clean the 5 g vs a 10 g ?


----------



## Tuiflies

Darth Toro said:


> Just curious. Do you use any carbon in your filter? If not why?


I put the carbon in while I was starting my tank to help keep it clean and then just left it in since I figured it was covered in good bacteria. It's pretty much useless as a purifying agent after about a month but I think it's beneficial initially.


----------



## Aquarist_Fist

lauraleellbp said:


> That's not true. A good friend of mine in Canada had a pretty active Oto breeding setup for many years. He wrote an article about it for TFH (published Feb 2008).


 I didn't say it can't be done and I would be very interested in reading your friend's article. The fact that the article got published as recently as 2008 shows that there is some scarcity value to breeding otos. 

In most cases, successful otos spawning just "happens" without the keeper's initiative. There is a handful of reports on successful intentional breeding, but you will agree that there is a big difference between those attempts and large-scale commercial breeding. 

And that's why most of us have never seen a captive-bred oto an a LFS.


----------



## greenknight

*Aquarist*... perhaps we should try to breed oto's and the other "unbreedable" 
fish... I mean, why not, at least it will help in not decimating the oto's and other fish
in South America.

I wanna read that article now *Lauralee*

heres the link to Oto's being captured in wild: Quite shocking!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilnitMs1LRk


----------



## lauraleellbp

greenknight said:


> I wanna read that article now *Lauralee*


It's not the whole article, but he posted a nice excerpt from his paper in this thread over on TFH:

http://forums.tfhmagazine.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=27140


----------



## lauraleellbp

Aquarist_Fist said:


> I didn't say it can't be done and I would be very interested in reading your friend's article. The fact that the article got published as recently as 2008 shows that there is some scarcity value to breeding otos.
> 
> In most cases, successful otos spawning just "happens" without the keeper's initiative. There is a handful of reports on successful intentional breeding, but you will agree that there is a big difference between those attempts and large-scale commercial breeding.
> 
> And that's why most of us have never seen a captive-bred oto an a LFS.


No, that's not true at all. Breeding Otos isn't any more difficult than breeding most other catfish... just since they can be so easily caught in such large numbers in SA and shipped in it's much *cheaper* that way.

The vast majority of South American fish in the hobby are still wild-caught, and it's all about economics rather than how difficult it may or may not be to get them to breed domestically.


----------



## greenknight

lauraleellbp said:


> No, that's not true at all. Breeding Otos isn't any more difficult than breeding most other catfish... just since they can be so easily caught in such large numbers in SA and shipped in it's much *cheaper* that way.
> 
> The vast majority of South American fish in the hobby are still wild-caught, and it's all about economics rather than how difficult it may or may not be to get them to breed domestically.


wow... I totally didnt know that. All this time I thought it must be hard to
breed these fish... I did become skeptical about it when scoured the net
and found many people breeding Neons, and thye are even spawning in
my tank.

but I would love to see more "home-bred" fish so these fish dont
end up getting endangered or extinct.

We all enjoy fish keeping, we could just try to move towards a more
sustainable approach.

btw.. if you lookup further videos of these tropical fish dealers, they
will tell you that the reaosn why they catch so many fish is because
90 to 95% end up dying in transit.

So the ones that you own in your fish tank represent the 5% that
survived the ordeal from one wholesaler to another to retailer and
to you.


----------



## lauraleellbp

The tropical fish hobby in many SA countries is a really big industry, and many countries are taking an active interest in making sure that industry is sustainable.

Many of the most common fish (ie tetras, cories, etc) are very prolific in the wild, and so the tropical fish industry has little to no impact on their population.

If you're interested in how threatened a wild population may be, www.fishbase.org collects that type of information on species from scientists all over the world; ie it notes that Ruby tetras (Axelrodia riesei) are a very resilient species that can double their population in less than 15 mos. 


> Resilience (Ref. 69278)
> 
> High, minimum population doubling time less than 15 months (Preliminary K or Fecundity.)


http://www.fishbase.org/Summary/spe...ame=Axelrodia&speciesname=riesei&lang=English

The biggest threat to tropical fish species worldwide is actually habitat destruction. In this instance, there is a vested interest in keeping a collectible and valuable collector fish species population around, so the tropical fish industry actually can help provide both incentive and funding to preserve habitat.


----------



## greenknight

Thats true, bigger problem is the loss of habitat due to destruction of the Amazon 
rainforest which provides 33% of the world's Oxygen, not to mention the thousands
of species of flora and fauna that it harbors.

I find it hard to believe that catching millions of Oto's each year will have no impact
on their numbers or habitat !!! In one scoop the guy in video above caught 2 thousand otos

Still, the industry has to take notice of the fact that majority of fish (90-95%) die before
reaching the consumer. I'm wondering what if anything the tropical fish industry
is doing to minimize these high death rates.

Educating the Tropical fish dealers back in South America would go a long way
towards sustainability. I know Brazil has embarked on a rainforest protection
program where it rewards the villagers in exchange for not cutting down the trees
or harming the environment.

But, I fear that probably in my lifetime, the rainforests of Sumatra and Amazon
will be a fraction of what they are now. I'm not saying Tropical fish keeping is entirely
to blame for Rainforest and Reef destruction, but the industry should have self imposed
quotas and teach sustainability to the local fish farmers.

Also, new methods and technology that would prolong the life in transit plus
breeding programs stateside would definitely help also...
ohh..breeding at home..thats where we went off on a tangent


----------



## Darth Toro

Any updates on the tank??? I'm curious to see how it is working out for you.


----------

