# Oh, no! I really messed up. STAGHORN BAD in my 20L.



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

When I first saw the staghorn algae, I read up on it, and the source I read said it mainly stayed in one spot. That sounded right since it was only on my anacharis. So I didn't worry about it while I made plans to yank the anacharis completely from the tank. In the meantime, I gathered ferts and excel along with hornwort to take over the job that the anacharis was supposed to be doing.

Just at the moment I got everything ready, I see the staghorn algae has spread to many other places in the tank.  Reading other sources says this algae is not easy to get rid of.   

Please help me get on the right track not only to get rid of the staghorn algae, but to get the tank itself in good shape for the plants.

BACKGROUND: I had (and still have) no idea what I was doing when I stuck plants in it. I didn't know about ferts. I thought the plants I got didn't need co2.

Plants began dying. I was told to get one fert or another, but couldn't find them locally. I finally got some Root Tabs and put them in. Plants began showing signs of life again so I thought that was working.

Root Tabs should be exhausted by now (month is up). I have haphazardly stuck in some iron a couple of times. I also put in another fert just before the staghorn algae came in, but as sad as it is, I can't even remember what I put in.

TANK INFO:
20 gallon long
Rena XP2 with course sponge over intake screen
Aqualight T5 30" 2x18w f/w
cheap UV Sterilzer
1" deep Eco Complete (need to raise this)
Temps usually around 78F

PLANTS:
Java Moss
Java Fern
Anubias "nana"
Pygmy Chain Sword
Wisteria
Crypt "bronze wendtii"

FISH:
9 F Guppies (2 adult, 4 very young adult, 3 juveniles)
9 Dwarf/Chain Loaches
6 Amano Shrimp

MAINTENANCE:
Water Changes with Vacuuming, 33% - 50% every 2 weeks, sometimes more often. Use Stress Coat (shut up ) as water conditioner.

I'm a bit too aggressive in cleaning the substrate. I use the Eheim battery powered vacuum just before a water change to try to clean what I can.

I have been so lost about ferts that I haven't really done anything other than what I've mentioned above. No excel or co2. Was told excel would melt the anacharis. Then was told it would kill my shrimp.

OTHER:
None of the plants are really doing all that well. The crypts and java fern are hanging in there the best, but have pinholes. The java moss is growing well, but has some kind of tiny algae on it. Tank has diatoms, not real bad, about medium I guess. I almost completely lost the wisteria until I added the Root Tabs. Chain swords only barely hanging on. Old leaves on Anubias are very badly pinholed. New leaves growing slowly, but there is some growth.

NOW WHAT?
I'm going to remove ALL anacharis since that's where the algae started. I'm going to cut out any other staghorn algae I can see. I've since read that excel DOES NOT kill shrimp, but I want to wait before adding any chemicals so I can do whatever you guys suggest. I'm going to remove the sponge on the intake tube since it's getting algae!

Tell me if there's any other info you need. I appreciate any help you all can offer. Thank you! :help:


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

You definitely have deficiencies in the plants. The only time I had staghorn was briefly and as the _apparent_ result of inadvertently putting too much Seachem Iron into the tank. Water changing and then continuing the normal fertilization process (without the uber iron dose) were enough to eliminate it in that instance. 

I definitely recommend starting a thorough fertilization program, the plants need the nutrients to get growing again. Otherwise that algae will just keep feeding off the table scraps.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Any recommendations for a fertilization program? I bookmarked the sites mentioned in another post for EI, EI "light" and PPS Pro; however, I do not have the ingredients mentioned in these programs, and I'm not sure how to convert what's listed to what I have.

What I have is:

Flourish trace
Flourish Potassium
Flourish iron
Flourish excel
Flourish Tabs
API Leaf Zone (0-0-3)
Nutrafin Plant Gro "iron enriched" (0.15-0-0)

I also have a lot of hornwort I had intended to add today. Should I add it or will it work against me now since it sucks up nutrient?

Looking at the fert programs, I like the EI method the best. I just don't have the right ferts on hand. How do I convert the fert measurements from the EI method to what I have on hand?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The standard forms of EI are geared toward high light, CO2 tanks, so you'd not want to dose quite that much in your lower light, non-CO2 tank here. 

Take a look at this thread at the Barr Report, it's about non-CO2 methods: 
http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2817-non-co2-methods.html

I haven't read it through yet, but I should. The general idea is that you just cut back on the ferts. 

PPS-Pro is adapted to lower light by just using a longer photo period, versus changing dosing.

You can pick up some Nitrogen by purchasing Spectracide or Greenlight Stump Remover, it's something like $6 a pound at Lowes here. A Fleet enema can be used for Phosphorus, though I cannot remember the dosage for that. Those suggestions are only for 'immediately available' macros. I would otherwise suggest ordering them, especially with the 75 gallon soon to be running.

Flourish Trace in your list, does it actually say "Trace" on it? If so, you'd want to trade that in for 'just' "Flourish" and it'll say "comprehensive blah blah...." under that name.

The fertilator at APC will allow you to determine dosing with Seachem's liquid products: 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php

You can figure out the ppms of the EI dosages using the Fertilator too, to give you a "target" if you will, as an amount to dose with the Seachem stuff.

The more healthy plant mass you can add, the better.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

Complexity said:


> A
> What I have is:
> 
> Flourish trace
> ...


I have been dosing EI style for almost 4 months now and am sold on it. You can't dose EI with the ferts you currently have. You need macro and micro nutrients. The Flourish Tabs probably have macros in them but won't help plants that take nutrients solely through the water column.
Suggest you read the link indiboi sent for EI lite dosing on Tom Barr's site and also read through the info on ferts on Rex Grigg's site (I sent you the link earlier in a PM). You can buy dry ferts from Rex or from here

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/store/aquaticplantfood.php

This stuff is so cheap I wouldn't play around with enemas and stump removers. $8 total (plus shipping) will get you a pound each of KNO3 (for nitrates) and KH2PO4 (for phosphates) at the site above, that will hold you for about a year. You can use the Flourish Potassium for now or buy dry, there is some potassium in the KH2PO4 and KNO3 so a lot of people don't add any more. For micros either order dry CSM&B from the site above $12 a lb. or get some Flourish Comprehensive or Tropica Master Grow. Flourish Trace provides additional micro nutrients. I have never used it but have seen it described as primarily water and it can't be substituted for Flourish Comprehensive or TMG. 

Remove as much staghorn as you can by hand, clip off dying parts of the plants. Start using the Excel daily as per label instructions. It will give your plants a carbon boost and help them grow better to resist the algae and will kill/prevent some types of algae. When you start dosing the tank with macros and micros lots of cheap fast growing stems plant will help, you want something healthy growing in there, once the tank is balanced you can start to replace the stem plants with plants you want to keep growing. 

Most important thing is to read up on EI dosing and how and why you need to use fertilization before you start dumping stuff in your tank that you will regret. You need to understand the relationship between light, CO2 and nutrients then choose one method and stick with it until your tank turns around. Changes should be made slowly and you need to give it a couple of weeks to see the effect. One reason people use the EI method is that it is easy and you don't have to constantly test or worry about levels. You provide a steady supply of non-limited nutrients during the week and then do a 50% water change which keeps anything from building up to excess levels. Don't worry about why it works, it just does for most people. It is designed primarily as a system for high light CO2 tanks but Tom's article will tell you how to adapt to a lower light tank like your 20. If you use Excel as a carbon source you use EI at a reduced dosage, as you read Tom's article remember that using Excel means you are not dealing with a non-CO2 tank you just can't crank in as much ferts using Excel as a carbon source as you can with CO2. Good news is that since the light over your 20 is moderate you will have an easier time getting the tank balanced than if you had super high light.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm reading everything, but I have a quick question.

Would it be prudent to place my order for the dry ferts being recommended and have it flown to me overnight or 2 day air? I don't mind doing it if the money spent would prevent me losing money on having to throw out all or a lot of my plants. They aren't cheap either.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

I wouldn't. Manual removal will be fine until your ferts arrive.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, I also have a CO2, Iron and Phosphate test kits. I hate working blind so I ordered them a few weeks earlier, but never used them.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I wouldnt either..

I would do a water change and then not dose till they arrived in a couple days..


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, manual it is.

I'm still reading so this is probably mentioned, but let me jump forward. Do I need to get a weight scale of some kind? And if so, any suggestions of what kind (I'll assume eBay)?

Should I not dose the excel or add the other plants until the ferts come in?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

You can find digital gram scales at just about any "smoke shop" or ebay. 

Or just use measuring spoons. I never weighed anything, except when I was splitting my original order. 

I was worried someone would walk in and see me dividing huge piles of white powder!


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## NeverEndingNinja (Jan 4, 2008)

And then you could show them the package that said KNO3. I don't worry about it. No one that walks in my house is going to suspect me of that, and if they do, it could easily be dismissed. Seems like a silly reason to not be accurate, since the amount of pressure you use to fill the measuring spoon can throw off your measurement by, I'd guess, +/-25-50%


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

It was a joke..


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

NeverEndingNinja said:


> And then you could show them the package that said KNO3. I don't worry about it. No one that walks in my house is going to suspect me of that, and if they do, it could easily be dismissed. Seems like a silly reason to not be accurate, since the amount of pressure you use to fill the measuring spoon can throw off your measurement by, I'd guess, +/-25-50%


One of the advantages to EI dosing is that you don't have to be that accurate. Naturally you don't want to dump a tablespoon of KNO3 in when what you wanted was a 1/4 of a teaspoon but the lack of needing scales and test kits is part of the appeal.


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

NeverEndingNinja said:


> And then you could show them the package that said KNO3. I don't worry about it. No one that walks in my house is going to suspect me of that, and if they do, it could easily be dismissed.


Sweet idea !! Now I'll push my blow in KNO3 bags!!:thumbsup:


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> Sweet idea !! Now I'll push my blow in KNO3 bags!!:thumbsup:


I will take a kilo. What is your price shipped? Do you take paypal? LOL


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

non cc paypal only


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Complexity, I have a feeling you might be cleaning your substrate a bit too much with that vacuum of yours.Staghorn from my understanding is present when ammonia spikes occur.
You aren't really supposed to clean eco, maybe a light dusting but by no means deep gouging with the vacuum. you also need a good 2 1/2-3 inches of eco(but you know that)
Eco has or in your case had nutrients in itPlus they say right on the package to leave fish waste as it works its way in the eco and becomes plant food.
I like to let things settle in and let all the good bacteria get a good hold on new tanks before I start cleaning.
Oh yes, throw more fast growers in the tank that should help...One more thing if you feed a lot cut back.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks, Mott. Actually, the Eheim battery vacuum prevents me from plunging into the substrate because it picks up the tiny grains and chokes on them. So I can only wave it around. I got it mainly because I had my pleco in there and the tank was really overcrowded, and I just got used to using it. I was removing too much water during water changes before.

But I know you're right that I clean too much. However, in this case it may be helpful as I spent a lot of time last night removing every strand of staghorn algae I could find, and I will continue to do a daily search for it and remove any that pops back up.

I'll go ahead and throw in the plants I have then. I actually have quite a few with more coming so will work well.

To scale or not to scale. I dunno. I'll see how much the scales are. Had a busy day yesterday and didn't get things ordered.

Isn't there any way I can use the Seachem ferts I have now at least while I'm waiting for the dry ferts to arrive? It seems such a waste to have ordered them, finally got them, and now not use them at all.

Can I at least use excel right now? I know my plants need it very badly. Hmm... Scratch that. I am going to use excel right now because I know my plants need it. If I'm wrong, I can do water changes to remove it.

Okay, so here's where I'm at:

1. All staghorn algae manually removed from tank. Will keep close eye for any I missed.

2. I am going to add excel NOW.

3. I am going to fill that tank up with a LOT of other plants NOW.

4. I am going to read to get a list of ferts I need and then order them.

5. I will price scales and make decision then.

Correct me if I'm on the wrong path anywhere, or tell me if I'm missing something.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I like staghorn algae. Looks pretty, like little corals. Maybe, if you have the patience and right attitude, they will disappear all by themselves. I never manage to keep them for long. :smile:


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Wasserpest said:


> I like staghorn algae. Looks pretty, like little corals.


Well, NOW you tell me! I could have sent you a bunch last night!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Does anyone know of a quick reference source that identifies the elements with their names? For example, CO2 = Carbon Dioxide.

I'm trying to follow Tom Barr's no CO2 thread, but the elements are new to me. So I'm trying to look them all up so I can comprehend what he's saying. I'm able to get most of them, but it's slow going and I just ran into one that I could not find.

Here's what I have so far:

CO2 = Carbon Dioxide
PO4 = Phosphate
NO3 = Nitrate
Fe = Iron
NH4 = Ammonium
KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate
KH2PO4 = Potassium Phosphate
KH = Potassium Hydride
Ca = Calcium
Mg = Magnesium

But I got stumped when I ran into KNO3m. I don't know what the "m" changes it into.

I don't want to just match up the letters when getting my ferts. I'd really like to comprehend the information so I know what I'm doing and why. But it's very slow going, and I'd like to get further along so I'll have some idea of what to order.

I very much want to place my order for the ferts, but I don't know _what_ to order so I'm chasing my tail right now. A list of the elements would greatly help. Thanks!


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

That's definitely a typo. 

KH actually stands for "Carbonate Hardness" ...the K is from the German origin. KH is also known as alkalinity.

There's also "GH" which is the measure of general hardness, basically the level of Calcium and Magnesium.

Another to add to your list is K2SO4 which is Potassium Sulfate, used if you want to dose Potassium without Nitrogen or Phosphorus.

Here's a pretty cool Periodic Table, if that's what you're looking for, but otherwise you have a pretty complete list of 'fertilizer elements' if you will, not counting minor nutrients in trace mixes which are rarely discussed individually.

Otherwise, I use KH2PO4 to dose Phosphorus, KNO3 to dose Nitrate, K2SO4 to dose Potassium. GH Builder / Equilibrium will provide for extra Potassium, a little Iron, along with Magnesium and Calcium. That should be all you need other than your trace/micros. Chelated Iron could also be on your list, but I find that Flourish Comprehensive provides plenty for my tank.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Thank you! That's helpful. I like the periodic table you pointed me to much better than the one I was using.

Okay, here's my list now. Anything inaccurate? I'm literally copying Tom's post and doing a search/replace to include the full names of the elements so I can better comprehend what he is saying. Hopefully, I'll also start putting some of the elements to memory.

CO2 = Carbon Dioxide
PO4 = Phosphate
NO3 = Nitrate
Fe = Iron
NH4 = Ammonium
KNO3 = Potassium Nitrate
KH2PO4 = Potassium Phosphate
KH = Carbonate Hardness (alkalinity)
GH = General Hardness (level of Calcium and Magnesium)
Ca = Calcium
Mg = Magnesium
Mn = Manganese
K = Potassium
SO4 = sulfate


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Very technically speaking KH2PO4 is "Monopotassium Phosphate" but that's splitting hairs a bit really, because it has a couple of other names too.

You could add "NH3" as Ammonia, since you have NH4 as Ammonium, for thoroughness. 

You could also add "NO2" for Nitrite.

Add the K2SO4 I mentioned earlier, again for thoroughness, and your list is complete, in so far as I can think of anyway. Well, exempt for the stuff in GH builder not already mentioned which would be Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Sulfate. There are some other forms of Calcium, but they're not used very often. You'd probably also not find too many dosing Calcium separately anyway. Ca & Mg are sort of oddballs in a way, because often they'll be sold hydrated, Epsom Salts for example is MgSO4-7H2O (Magnesium Sulphate Heptahydrate).


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have no idea how I missed the lower part of your previous message. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

Definitely split hairs. If I'm going to learn this, help me to learn it the right way.

BTW, my list of elements came from extracting them from Tom Barr's first post in that thread. I'm still on that first post, trying to make heads or tails out of it! I can easily comprehend the concept, but without knowing the element symbols, it's as if he was talking in another language. So I miss a large part of what he's saying. I don't want to miss it. So I started extracting the symbols, looking them up, making my list of them, and then doing the find/replace to put his post in layman's terms with the element's name and symbol together.



indiboi said:


> Well, exempt for the stuff in GH builder not already mentioned which would be Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Sulfate.


I'm not sure I'm understanding you here. Are you saying splitting the GH hairs, being more specific to say "Magnesium Sulfate and Calcium Sulfate" instead of just "Magnesium and Calcium"? Or am I completely lost?

Oh, here's my current list. I have it in a table now. I'll add to this as I go.


```
[B]SYMBOL[/b]	[b]NAME[/b]			[b]USE[/B]

Ca	Calcium	
CO2	Carbon Dioxide	
Fe	Iron	
GH	General Hardness	level of Calcium and Magnesium
K	Potassium	
K2SO4	Potassium Sulfate	to dose Potassium without Nitrogen or Phosphorus
KH	Carbonate Hardness	alkalinity
KH2PO4	Monopotassium Phosphate	to dose Phosphorus
KNO3	Potassium Nitrate	
Mg	Magnesium	
Mn	Manganese	
NH3	Ammonia	
NH4	Ammonium	
NO2	Nitrite	
NO3	Nitrate	
PO4	Phosphate	
SO4	Sulfate
```


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

No worries, yes, I was just splitting out the components of GH builder into what substances are mixed together to get the Ca & Mg. With knowing Ca, Mg, and SO4, you can figure out pretty easily that it's CaSO4 and MgSO4.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes, that's very easy. It's actually symbol/name substitution.

CaSO4 - Calcium Sulfate
MgSO4 - Magnesium Sulfate


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

What about sodium bicarbonate, NaHCO3? Used for buffering water and raising pH, also known as baking soda. I see it used a lot more on Cichld Forums where people want hard alkaline water, it's not used so much in planted tanks.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

If you look on Barr Report website they will give you great charts of where to start on your tank so you don't have to do all of the guessing.

And they make spoons that work fine (pinch, dash, etc) for the measurements. I have a 25 gallon tank, and you can see what I am dosing, everyone seems to think what I am doing is good for my tank. I would just start with the measuring spoons, and look at what is suggested for your size tank and start from there. As long as you are doing the 50% water change every week, it's hard to mess up on the ferts.


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## BassMiesterNJ (Dec 2, 2007)

So how is the Staghorn battle going ?


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