# dolomite?



## Homer_Simpson

fishwolfe said:


> is dolomite lime what i need for the mineralized soil?its all i could find.


You want just plain old dolomite and not dolomite lime. Dolomite Lime is allegedly supposed to create problems. You may be able to get food grade dolomite powder from a health food store that may be safe to use in an aquarium. Also, from what I understand you can substitute crushed coral and Epsom Salts or Cuttlebone shavings.


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## fishwolfe

ok i guess i'll take it back.i can get crushed corral from the lfs but its spendy.is there a recommended ratio of salt to crushed coral?


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## fishwolfe

well i did some calling around and everyone i spoke with said dolomite is lime?????
the health food store i called said they didnt carry it and dont think people should eat it?
now im stumped even more.


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## imeridian

I understand your confusion, typically speaking dolomite is just another name for dolomite lime, especially from a garden center perspective. Apparently in "mineralized soil speak" they really mean crushed limestone, at least according to the thread linked below:

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/for...sions/292-how-mineralize-soil-substrates.html


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## fishwolfe

ah i see!the dolomite lime is part limestone.it can buffer your water.i use crushed limestone in my cichlid tank to keep the ph up.maybe thats why it could cause a problem with certain plants?
now all i need is some clay.thanks for the link:thumbsup:


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## Homer_Simpson

fishwolfe said:


> well i did some calling around and everyone i spoke with said dolomite is lime?????
> the health food store i called said they didnt carry it and dont think people should eat it?
> now im stumped even more.


I checked with my health food store and they do carry it and it is considered safe for human consumption. I did not ask them why people would consume it as I was only interested in it to use for mineralized toposoil.

This is a quote from AaronT, Mineralized Topsoil extraordinare. This is what he has to say on using dolomite lime. It is from the mineralized topsoil thread.
"Dolomite lime found at garden centers doesn't work. I've tried it before and it causes issues. The better substitution is crushed coral." 
"If you can get the correct dolomite from a garden center it's fine. You're looking for CaMg(CO3)2 . However, many garden centers carry other products under the name dolomite that are not the same and don't work well for this application."

This is a quote from Ingg, another Mineralized Topsoil extraordinare

"Dolomite lime - more properly Dolomitic Limestone - contains the concentration of calcium and magnesium both versus pure dolomite. 

Pure dolomite limestone is (like Aragonite) is all CaCO3, gardening versions of dolomite have wide ranges of CaCO2 and MgCO3 both depending on what they claim to be in the fine print. Gardening Lime can also have other forms - oxides and hydroxides of Calcium.

There is a lot of variance in what can be found from different sources, in other words, and those variations can cause the issues Aaron is describing."

This is from SCMurphy, the father of the mineralized topsoil method.

"Just a couple 'answers' I thought you guys were still looking for.

If you use crushed coral you can add a light sprinkle of Epsom salt to add some Mg to the underlayer. The dolomite is to keep the acidity of the soil from plunging, it should however, not add much to the water column through the cap material. The plants are going to pump more nutrients into the water column than the substrate will leak.

You really want to let the bacteria do what they do best and don't try to rush the mineralization processes. When the soil is almost a sand and you can get the soil wet and it doesn't smell, it is ready for use. If you have crypts or swords that are struggling when you start the tank, a small piece of root tab or jobes stick will get them over the hump. These plants do quite well when they get their roots established." 


Hope that provides some clarification. P.S. The idea of using cuttlbone scrapings is Hoppy's idea and I don't know how well that would work, but I would trust Hoppy as he has been around the block for a long time.


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## metageologist

Here is a quick clarification 

Dolomite is NOT aragonite in any way shape or form.

Dolomite is (Ca,Mg)2(CO3)2 there are other variations of dolomite that do contain Fe and Mn if the lime stone does not contain Mg it is not Dolomite. 

this is why lime stone has different classifications such as micritic, sparitic , pell, and bio these refer to the constituents and grain size that make up the lime stone. 

now for aragonite, aragonite is the pure form of lime stone CaCo3 if its primary constituents are not CaCo3 it is not aragonite. it is true that aragonite could contain Mg Mn and Fe this would not be true aragonite. 

now for a quick explanation on how each rock forms aragonite will form in a supersaturated solution of CaCO3 (aka a seaside lagoon that evaporates faster than recharge this also occurs in tidal pools that might only be submerged at the highest high tide. the CaCO3 will begin precipitating when 10% of the volume has evaporated. dolomite also forms in this same environment but only once the pool of water has reached 90% evaporation, so in other words if a pool never 90% or concentrations high enough to case a precipitate of MgCl to mix with the CaCO3 you will not get dolomite. 

and just so no one goes looking along the coast of there ocean out side Florida and Texas for fresh dolomite, Lime stone and its variations only form in tropical climates AKA the Caribbean. 

just my 2cents


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## imeridian

Thanks metageologist, this particular issue really speaks to why we should look for things based on their chemical formula versus relying on common names.


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## metageologist

no problem im here to help in all your rock related questions


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## fishwolfe

Wow!:icon_eek: what a reply metageologist.that is so much info i had to read it 3 or 4 times.i might even print it out to show the guy at the local feed n seed that said all dolomite is the same:icon_roll.i guess i'll return it and make a few calls to some other health food stores.if that doesnt work i'll go with the crushed shells and epsom salt.


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## metageologist

Glad i could help


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## flanders

Oh.....Dol"O"mite. Not the pimp movie Dol"E"mite. ha.


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## fishwolfe

i couldnt find pure dolomite so i got a bag of crushed coral and some epsom salt.now i need go play in the mud like a little kid.


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## Homer_Simpson

fishwolfe said:


> i couldnt find pure dolomite so i got a bag of crushed coral and some epsom salt.now i need go play in the mud like a little kid.


Hey, have you thought of asking(PM) Ingg or AaronT to see if they have any extra dolomite to sell you or send to you. They have done this for others before and may be willing to help you. As you are residing in the US, even if you had to pay shipping, I don't think it would be terribly expensive. Just a thought.


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## fishwolfe

i thought about it but i picked up some crushed coral and had the epsom salt already.i was just wondering if i got the right clay?its made by terracotta and its an air dry clay no baking needed.2#'s for $7 from craft store.


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## metageologist

I'm not sure which clay terracotta is i would suggest placing a small amount in water and make sure it does not absorb water and expand substantially like (illite and shmectite (spelling)) if i remember my sedimentology right these clays expand and would have the capabilities to expand with enough force to break a tank


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## fishwolfe

i definitely will check that out.thanks for the tip!
heres what it looks like








the only english says air dry modeling clay.


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## Homer_Simpson

Also, make sure that the clay has no polymer fillers. This seems to be the problem with most clays from craft stores. Polymer based clays are not recommened for use in this recipe. I am not sure if you have a local pottery supply shop in your area, but I found one that carried pure natural non-polymer based clay with different ones containing different iron content. I will likley use laterite as I have some lying around. Laterite can also be used instead of clay in this recipe but laterite is considerably more expensive.


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## parkman7

Are you trying to make the water have more calcium or just increase the general hardness?

Dolomite is a very generic term for rocks which contain high calcium carbonate and magnesium.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite
Although generally in the aquarium hobby people refer to calcium rich mineral rocks as dolomite regardless if that is actually what it is.
Terracotta is simply a cheap red colored clay. If you want to use some in the substrate there may be better alternatives. Most clay based substrates are called laterite which are either cured in an oven or simply dried. These are stable, and do not change the hardness or PH of water usually. Also they are high in mineral content which can only be accessed by the plants roots, which is why they are good to use in a planted tank.

Hope this helps.

Regards,


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## Coltonorr

I have been following this thread for a few days and I found this info from 
marjonceramics.com 
They have all of the raw materials for M.S substrate.
they get all of there bulk materials from laguna clay company and the data sheets are listed on there website. The only problem is the clay is only sold in 50lb bags which, though the clay is cheap at 7.50 but to ship 50 lbs...uhhhh no way!
so here is a link to the data sheets...
http://www.lagunaclay.com/catalog/pdf/lcc_dryraw.pdf

the dolomite is also called dolowhite and is composed of what I believe we or you are looking for. CaMg(CO3)2
the Muriate of Potash, I believe is also called Feldspar and there are 4 different types, though I'm not sure which type is appropriate for our uses...
Custer, G-200, Kona f-4, and Primas P.
Maybe someone else can chime in on the best for our purposes.


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## fishwolfe

the problem is i live in the sticks and trying to get the stuff locally is turning out to be harder than i thought.the only lfs is a mom and pop shop,the real fish store is and hour plus one way from here and they said they didn't stock laterite but could order it.

the clay has no ingredients listed,just says terracotta.the lady running the craft store said she's made caves for her tank out of it and has had no problems.i thought the clay was just to act as a flocculating agent but now i see it also adds iron to the mix.not sure about a pottery supply shop, never needed one before.

i went to the Rightaid and Walgreen's in the next town, but no dolomite.that's why i went with the crushed coral and e.salt substitute.
I'm only 100% sure on the topsoil.
i have 0-0-60 potash so i think i got that one correct also.
thanks for the help,this is turning out to be a good scavenger hunt!

if it matters its a 6' long 12" deep 18" high 110 gallon tank.i figured i'll start small then go bigger when i get the hang of this better.


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## Coltonorr

Dolomite can be found at one of the sponsers here...*Aquacave*


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## michu

The Vitamin Shoppe sells dolomite powder if you have one anywhere close to you. (1 lb for $4.99) It does have a wee bit of iron in it.

http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1135


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## Homer_Simpson

michu said:


> The Vitamin Shoppe sells dolomite powder if you have one anywhere close to you. (1 lb for $4.99) It does have a wee bit of iron in it.
> 
> http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/en/browse/sku_detail.jsp?id=KA-1135


I got dolomite from my local health food store(VitaHealth). It was special ordered. The brand is Swiss Natural Sources Dol-Mite Powder. It contains no fillers, artifical colors, flavors, or preservatives. And it contains No Iron, although I am sure the Iron is a good thing as far as plants are concerned.


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## michu

Supposedly there's nothing in this dolomite other than the calcium, magnesium and iron. Those are the only 3 ingredients listed on the bottle anyway.


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## Coltonorr

I don't think the Dolomite powder is what you want...if I'm not mistaken the powder is a supplement which is designed to be absorbed by the body. The dolomite for mineralized setups looks like gravel, and is much slower in its breakdown and release into the soil. In this article the dolomite used is dolomite gravel or crushed dolomite, not powdered.


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## michu

I think I'll go for the rock-type just to be safe.


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## Homer_Simpson

michu said:


> I think I'll go for the rock-type just to be safe.


Same here. Interesting, I was thinking about this very issue this morning and debating about what to do when I set up. Does anyone know if this will work. It is supposed to be dolomite gravel and the only solid form of dolomite available in my neck of the woods.
http://www.jlaquatics.com/phpstore/store_pages/details/substrate.php?product_ID=as-kjbd5


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## Coltonorr

Homer that is not what you want, its coated. You want this
http://www.aquacave.com/dolomite-1-liter-by-br-aqua-medic-2176.html
you want the dolomite to very slowly "leach" Ca and Mg into your soil.
That coated stuff won't do that.


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## michu

I think it does leach through the coated stuff since it says it buffers pH, possibly less quickly than the uncoated? From researching dolomite, I gather it dissolves rather quickly and will eventually run out. Possibly the epoxy-coated type might last longer? 

Researching dolomite has given me an acute headache.


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## fishwolfe

> Researching dolomite has given me an acute headache


yes it does!


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## Homer_Simpson

Coltonorr said:


> Homer that is not what you want, its coated. You want this
> http://www.aquacave.com/dolomite-1-liter-by-br-aqua-medic-2176.html
> you want the dolomite to very slowly "leach" Ca and Mg into your soil.
> That coated stuff won't do that.


Thanks for the link, but since I am in Canada, ordering a bag of that will cost be almost as much as a 3 litre bag of ADA Aquasoil II, so I am basically left with four options.

(1) Use the coated dolomite gravel and take my chances

(2) Use the powdered health food store dolomite powder and again take my chances

(3) Use Crushed coral with Epsom salts

(4) Screw the whole thing and just go with Eco-Complete, Red Sea Flora base, Fluorite Black Sand, SMS, or ADA Aquasoil II.

Any suggestions are welcomed and appreciated.


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## Coltonorr

michu said:


> I think it does leach through the coated stuff since it says it buffers pH, possibly less quickly than the uncoated? From researching dolomite, I gather it dissolves rather quickly and will eventually run out. Possibly the epoxy-coated type might last longer?
> 
> Researching dolomite has given me an acute headache.


 
LOL headache is right. I almost reached a point where I was just going to by a dolomite statue and crush it up...hehe!
I didn't realize that the epoxy coated stuff buffers...I wonder what happens to the epoxy. 
I remember reading that you can "recharge" your substrate by rolling pieces of dolomite in clay and pushing them into the Mineralized Substrate. I would imagine it takes a while before you need to do that though.

Homer, maybe someone here on the forum would send you some dolomite. I know Torpedobarb makes kits, maybe he will just sell you the dolomite. If not I may have some left over I could mail you...What size tank?
You could also check to see if you can get Estes Ultra Reef Dolomite from a LFS.


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## fishwolfe

i went with #3.put the epsom salt,potash under the mts, capped with sand.now i got the water clearing up.i ran 1 hose in to the tank and had another at the opposite end draining the water to clear it up.felt really strange putting dirt in a tank.my wife said it looked like a giant mud pie.but its getting better.now i'm finishing up my d.i.y canopy and light setup.


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## fishwolfe

or you could crush up the coated????


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## Homer_Simpson

Coltonorr said:


> LOL headache is right. I almost reached a point where I was just going to by a dolomite statue and crush it up...hehe!
> I didn't realize that the epoxy coated stuff buffers...I wonder what happens to the epoxy.
> I remember reading that you can "recharge" your substrate by rolling pieces of dolomite in clay and pushing them into the Mineralized Substrate. I would imagine it takes a while before you need to do that though.
> 
> Homer, maybe someone here on the forum would send you some dolomite. I know Torpedobarb makes kits, maybe he will just sell you the dolomite. If not I may have some left over I could mail you...What size tank?
> You could also check to see if you can get Estes Ultra Reef Dolomite from a LFS.



Thanks for the offer. It is for a 5 gallon. It may prove too cost prohibitive to ship from US to Canada and difficult and I don't know if it would be worth it. I knew that AaronT was using Estes Ultar Reef Dolomite for mineralized topsoil and I scoured by city looking for this stuff, no luck. I even scoured the net and E-Bay to try and locate a Canadian Supplier. Again, no luck. The closest I found was the epoxy coated stuff.


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## Homer_Simpson

fishwolfe said:


> or you could crush up the coated????


Good Idea....that may be the way to go. Thanks.


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## michu

Homer, as soon as my kids get back with my car, I'm going to the LFS to pick up some dolomite. I called them and they have $15 for $9. If it is the right kind, I'll send you some. I'll let you know when I get back if it is the right stuff when I return. I heard them just drive up; so I'm off...


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## Homer_Simpson

michu said:


> Homer, as soon as my kids get back with my car, I'm going to the LFS to pick up some dolomite. I called them and they have $15 for $9. If it is the right kind, I'll send you some. I'll let you know when I get back if it is the right stuff when I return. I heard them just drive up; so I'm off...


Hey, many thanks. If you could let me know what shipping will cost to Canada. There is no point if it turns out to be more than its worth. I can honestly tell you that trying to collect everything for mineralized topsoil is proving to be a real PITA and for practical reasons I may just abandon this whole project. At some point, it really becomes a question of whether it is worth it if trying to get everything together is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. I know there are American suppliers of some of this stuff, but if it ends up costing me more with shipping, taxes, etc., than what a good commercial substrate would cost me, why bother. Plus, I have flora base, ADA AS II, Eco-Complete, SMS, and fluorite black sand all lieing around, ready to use.


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## michu

It was the right stuff... pure dolomite in gravel form. How much do you think you'll need? I wouldn't think it would be much for a 5 gallon? 

I ship stuff to Canada all the time... it's not expensive provided it's not outrageously heavy. The amount of dolomite you'll need will be minimal.... PM me your address and how much you want in 250L increments and I'll drop it in the mail tomorrow.

I'm guessing 1 cup (250ml) for a 78" X 18" tank? Does this sound about right to you guys? It's hard for me to tell from AaronT's picture how much of the light dusting is actually dolomite. From what I can tell, it appears to be just a dab.


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## michu

I bought all 15 pounds even though I only need one bag (sold in 5 pound increments). I picked them up in case anybody else is having trouble finding only the dolomite.


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## Coltonorr

michu, its funny you mention that...I was at a LFS and I saw Estes Ultra Reef Dolomite. Since I had already purchased the stuff from Aquacave, I didn't buy it but I'm thinking I should go back and get both bags.


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## michu

I'm embarrassed that I didn't try the LFS to begin with. :/ For some reason, I had it in my head that I'd find it at a farm supply. Good gravy marie.

I think I've got more than enough of the stuff to supply people with dolomite. I suspect I'll end up with most of it left in the garage for eons.  But... it's here if somebody needs it.


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## lauraleellbp

michu said:


> Good gravy marie.


ROFL

I was gonna suggest using aragonite from an LFS.


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## michu

lauraleellbp said:


> I was gonna suggest using aragonite from an LFS.


LOL! I wish you would had. I'd have found the dolomite MUCH sooner. :icon_redf


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## metageologist

michu said:


> LOL! I wish you would had. I'd have found the dolomite MUCH sooner. :icon_redf


 
im confused how would this lead to the discovery of dolomite faster ?


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## Homer_Simpson

metageologist said:


> im confused how would this lead to the discovery of dolomite faster ?


You would know better than I, but is aragonite not a substitute for dolomite that can be used in the mineralized topsoil substrate which will work just as well? Unless I am misreading information on the net I thought aragonite was another form of dolomite or similar enough in composition to it for the purpose(s) of this method.


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## Coltonorr

Homer, a LFS suggested I use Aragonite instead, but I wasn't sure about the other trace elements it would release. I wanted to limit the variables in AaronT's "recipe" so I passed. Maybe someone will try it and let us know.


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## Homer_Simpson

Coltonorr said:


> Homer, a LFS suggested I use Aragonite instead, but I wasn't sure about the other trace elements it would release. I wanted to limit the variables in AaronT's "recipe" so I passed. Maybe someone will try it and let us know.


Yeah, I know what you mean. That is why I was trying to keep as closely as to the original recipe as possible, right down to the dolomite, clay, and soil(or as close as possible) used. My attempt at a natural planted tank proved a major failure and I believe that the soil used was the main cause, so with the mineralized topsoil I wanted as much as possible to stick to the ingredients listed.


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## metageologist

homer 

up on post 8 i have detailed description of the diff race between aragonite and dolomite. 

i am no expert on mineralizing soils but I'm assuming the reason for using the specific rock dolomite is to obtain the trace minerals that are in it, being that aragonite is only composed of Ca(CO3). 

of course this sets me to thinking that a good granite would be a excellent substitute being that it is the root of most soils.


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## michu

metageologist said:


> im confused how would this lead to the discovery of dolomite faster ?


Because I would have gone to the LFS asking for aragonite and found the dolomite long ago. LOL


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## metageologist

ahh i see now it all makes sens


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## Tuchon35

My calcium reactor is nothing more than Co2 pumped into a mixture of dolomite, crushed coral and saltwater. I suppose the saltwater must be the catalyst, because every planted tank would have an excessive amount of Ca. Or am I way off.

I am new to the hobby, but why would you want to raise the ph and kh so much. It is my understanding that crushed coral containing aragonite has like 25x the buffering capacity as dolomite or lime based gravel, but both seem excessive. Unless you have extremely soft water and inject a massive amount of CO2. I use RO/DI water with equilibrium (sp?), so this pure curiosity.

If I don't want fish, could I just buffer my water in tandem with injecting CO2 to insane levels as long the ph remains the same. Or does Co2 only effect PH and not KH or GH, and the plants would not thrive under such KH/GH levels. I have 250mh 6500k de hqi's, so lighting and ferts would not be in question

Thanks I know this may sound stupid, but I haven't added fish yet. I just want an underwater garden of sorts, and could careless about fish or inverts. If I can get better growth without fish, I will choose that route. Yup, a fishtank without fish, I said it.


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## Homer_Simpson

Tuchon35 said:


> ... Unless you have extremely soft water and inject a massive amount of CO2. I use RO/DI water with equilibrium (sp?), so this pure curiosity...


I am certainly no expert on mineralized topsoil substrate and my plan is to set up an experimental tank within the next few months to see what all the hype is about.

If I understand correctly, the whole idea behind adding the dolomite is as a buffer to keep the substrate from becoming too acidic long term and to provide essential magnesium and calcium supplemenation to the plant roots, considering you would not be dosing any ferts at all with the exception of potassium in very minute quantities.


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## Tuchon35

Thank you, So it would eliminate the need for dosing some nutrients. I knew I was missing something. Is it actually effective by itself, as a buffer though ?


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## Homer_Simpson

Tuchon35 said:


> Thank you, So it would eliminate the need for dosing some nutrients.


Yes that is what is alleged. You would not dose any water column ferts at all with the possible exception of potassium but very........very....little. Some folks state that you can place crushed root tabs when you sprinkle the bottom with dolomite and potash of murate and this along with the mineralized soil will provide all necessary nutirents to the roots. Those who have tried this method state that their tanks have been running for many...many years...without any dosing. Critics argue that no sediment can indefinitely supply plants with all required nutrients and at some point the sediment will become depleted sufficiently and exhaustion will set in, making water column fertilization necessary to prevent plant death. I cannot speak to which camp may be right or wrong as I have not tested the method over a long time and I really don't want to speculate. 



Tuchon35 said:


> ..I knew I was missing something. *Is it actually effective by itself, as a buffer though **?*


That is a really good question and difficult to answer. You would have to set up the tank and monitor the PH over several months and years to determine how effectively the dolomite has worked to buffer the PH.


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## hokuryu

OK, officially lost, as well, on the issue of dolomite. 

I thought I got it. I got dolomitic limestone from a garden center - containing oxides - [buzzer sounds] 

It appears to me, from looking at Aaron's description and pics of the method, that the dolomite he is adding _is_ in powder form - is it not? I ask, because I can get 1 lb. for $5 bucks, locally - the vitamin shoppe powder, containing iron. If it's laid on the glass, and overlaid with mud, will the rate of leaching not be slow enough - at least, under a presumption of NPT, enough to supply the first several months, until fish poop, fish food, etc., replenishes?

Edit: no, I was wrong - the dolomite isn't powder, the KCL likely is, in his pics. But still, the dolomite in his pics sure looks finer than the coarse stone-like presentation I see above, for the dolomite. Anyone speak to why, if it's a first layer on the glass, topped with and entrapped by mud, it won't leach properly?


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## illumnae

Just curious, would sprinkling Seachem Equilibrium replace dolomite and muriate of potash? I think it contains calcium, magnesium and potassium


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

hokuryu said:


> OK, officially lost, as well, on the issue of dolomite.
> 
> I thought I got it. I got dolomitic limestone from a garden center - containing oxides - [buzzer sounds]
> 
> It appears to me, from looking at Aaron's description and pics of the method, that the dolomite he is adding _is_ in powder form - is it not? I ask, because I can get 1 lb. for $5 bucks, locally - the vitamin shoppe powder, containing iron. If it's laid on the glass, and overlaid with mud, will the rate of leaching not be slow enough - at least, under a presumption of NPT, enough to supply the first several months, until fish poop, fish food, etc., replenishes?
> 
> Edit: no, I was wrong - the dolomite isn't powder, the KCL likely is, in his pics. But still, the dolomite in his pics sure looks finer than the coarse stone-like presentation I see above, for the dolomite. Anyone speak to why, if it's a first layer on the glass, topped with and entrapped by mud, it won't leach properly?


like this? http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/...t=cs&source=FG&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=KA-1135

I hope that someone can affirm that it is okay to use the dolomite in this fine powdered form as i am hoping because this would be the easiest for me to attain.


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## metageologist

i would go ahead and use it is apears to be pure dolomite and since its in the powdered form is has increased surface area so it will leach better into the soil.


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## michu

From what research I did on the powder form that I had... it has a high solubility rate. I ended up buying the dolomite that AaronT suggests.

I bought 2 extra bags to be sure and have some for those that can't find it. If you want some of it, shoot me a pm.


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## Curator

one could reduce the solubility rate of powdered dolomite by mixing it with a cheap natural low grit clay,(not that craft store stuff! any real clay is usually sold in 25# blocks, a box being two blocks...My ace hardware sells it.) im not sure what the percentage would be, but id say a 50/50 would probably work if you have a soft enough clay with low grit so you can mix it easier, higher percentage of Dolomite may work too, but this would take experimentation to be sure... then after rolling the clay into a long thin line about the thickness of the balls you want, you cut out sections, give them a quick roll if you want or just leave them as they are, let them dry to bone hardness then just put them through a bisque fire, they will be hard and shouldnt break down in your tank, but would still be HEAVILY porous and able to leach anything inside of it into your tank... *bisque firing is usually done between cones 06-04 1800-1915 F but since the ignition point of magnesium is pretty low, one would probably want to bisque fire it between cones 012-011 - 1549-1575 F...Not sure how fast the clay would break down after being fired at these temps, if the MG is relatively low, you may be able to fire it at around cone 06 and be perfectly fine...or if firing in an oil powered kiln in which the burning oil tens to eat up all the oxygen, the mg cant ignite, and your fine...if the mg is low enough though, basically only slight trace amounts, then theres no danger and your fine...


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## Coltonorr

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> like this? http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/store/...t=cs&source=FG&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=KA-1135
> 
> I hope that someone can affirm that it is okay to use the dolomite in this fine powdered form as i am hoping because this would be the easiest for me to attain.


I would not use it...from what I understand is you want a slow release of the Ca and Mg, not a rapid infusion into the soil. Dolomite also keeps the soil from becoming too acidic.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

Coltonorr said:


> I would not use it...from what I understand is you want a slow release of the Ca and Mg, not a rapid infusion into the soil. Dolomite also keeps the soil from becoming too acidic.


 
Okay, now is it really necessary to keep the substrate acidity down? many have used peat moss as a bottom layer so i wouldnt think that having an acidic substrate could be such a big deal. i wouldnt mind if i had to dose Ca and mg so i am beginning to wonder about omiting the dolomite if i cannot easily attain it. on the other hand i will likely order it from the net when it comes down to it.

Curator, i would try this but have very limited experience in handling clay and do not know how to fire the clay, nor do i have the resources to do so. 

So you are saying that any ace hardware would have the clay though? do you happen to know what the cost of a 25lb brick would be? I still need the clay itself.

i already have the muriate of potash covered, lucky me.
I need to jump up and start the wetting/drying phase of the soil started but have realized after some events that my priorities are not lined up in the order that they should be. Honestly i think that i have been channelling too much energy into this hobby lately and neglecting other responsibilities a bit. So setting up the new tank might go on hold for another couple of weeks.


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## Coltonorr

Discus,  
The Dolomite is to keep the soil pH up a little. Acidic soil is good, and from what I understand having your soil slightly acidic is a good thing, however if its too acidic it could be a negative, both for fish and plants. The dolomite is like a time released buffer for the soil...ultimately keeping the soil pH steady or consistant.

Shoot michu a pm. She offered you some. you don't need alot just enough to lightly sprinkle on the bottom of the tank. I also may pick up an extra bag for those who may need it.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

Yes i just read over that now. Michu i will likely take some of the dolomite off of your hands if i cannot find any locally in the next few days


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## Tuchon35

Discus, sometimes a saltwater fishstore will have it. If they sell ca reactors chances are they will have it, if it is a good store. Just ask for CA reactor media. Then again, I maybe lucky, my reef store is the best


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## michu

Discus, just let me know. I'm leaving out of town tomorrow morning and won't be back until Monday night; so plan accordingly.


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## Tuchon35

I actually used KNOP KORALlith mixed in with my laterite, but some people use dolomite in their Reactors. I have not had a problem. I use RO/DI water and i found that I use less Equalibrium now. It is all fish tank safe, and specifically designed for a similiar application, but in the reef world. I have been closely monitoring PH KH GH, and CA levels. 

I would like someone else to experment with it, to see if they get similiar results. 

I would like any input, especially from those with RO/DI water.


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

michu said:


> Discus, just let me know. I'm leaving out of town tomorrow morning and won't be back until Monday night; so plan accordingly.


Its okay bud im not in a big hurry to get this done, im still at least a week out from even completing the stand that this tank will rest on, let alone all of the necessary plumbing, ect. I will let you know soon.


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## Curator

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> Curator, i would try this but have very limited experience in handling clay and do not know how to fire the clay, nor do i have the resources to do so.
> 
> So you are saying that any ace hardware would have the clay though? do you happen to know what the cost of a 25lb brick would be? I still need the clay itself.


I live in a small town, so originally years ago they didnt carry any clay around here, we had to ask them to start carrying it, normally it was $25 for a 50 pound box containing 2- 25 pound bags, I'll check to see if I can find a supplier for you in your area... what city/state are you in?


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## michu

DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR said:


> Its okay bud im not in a big hurry to get this done, im still at least a week out from even completing the stand that this tank will rest on, let alone all of the necessary plumbing, ect. I will let you know soon.


OK, great. Just shoot me a message when you're ready after I return.


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## Curator

hey discuss, I found a decent source for clay that I think is near you, the recycled clay seems pretty cheap... http://www.berkeleypottersstudio.com/clay.html thats the best ive been able to find so far... I hope it helps... oh, their recycled clay is only 25 cents a pound, not sure about the quality as ive never purchased their clay, but it should all be made from natural clays...in fact the recycled clay is usually made from a large variety of clays, meaning it could have much more varied mineral content than most other clays... good luck!lol


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## hokuryu

Curator said:


> hey discuss, I found a decent source for clay that I think is near you, the recycled clay seems pretty cheap... http://www.berkeleypottersstudio.com/clay.html thats the best ive been able to find so far... I hope it helps... oh, their recycled clay is only 25 cents a pound, not sure about the quality as ive never purchased their clay, but it should all be made from natural clays...in fact the recycled clay is usually made from a large variety of clays, meaning it could have much more varied mineral content than most other clays... good luck!lol


SCMurphy (as far as I know, the "father" of the mineralized technique we're all using) earlier provided this, in terms of red clay in smaller amounts:

http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_product.cfm?item=37596


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## Curator

hokuryu said:


> SCMurphy (as far as I know, the "father" of the mineralized technique we're all using) earlier provided this, in terms of red clay in smaller amounts:
> 
> http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_product.cfm?item=37596



Actually, that is a really beautiful clay, Ive thrown with it be4, it was awesome... came out really beautiful, even from the bisque fire...took to burnishing really well, but a little pricey for me... as far as using it in his substrate, unless he needs very very little clay, or has the extra money to throw around, I cant see it being worth it, since the majority of what youl really get with red clay is well, allot of iron... But it is dang good stuff to throw on the wheel!!! (can get 30 pounds of the recycled stuff I mentioned for the same price...and not have to pay shipping since I think he is rather close to Berkley...) but im no expert on this stuff when it comes to using clay in a fish tank,I never have, so if theres some reason that red clay is best for him to use, then by all means, he should go for it... I was only trying to find him a cheap source of clay nearby...or at least a bus ride or two away hopefully...


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## hokuryu

Curator said:


> Actually, that is a really beautiful clay, Ive thrown with it be4, it was awesome... came out really beautiful, even from the bisque fire...took to burnishing really well, but a little pricey for me... as far as using it in his substrate, unless he needs very very little clay, or has the extra money to throw around, I cant see it being worth it, since the majority of what youl really get with red clay is well, allot of iron... But it is dang good stuff to throw on the wheel!!! (can get 30 pounds of the recycled stuff I mentioned for the same price...and not have to pay shipping since I think he is rather close to Berkley...) but im no expert on this stuff when it comes to using clay in a fish tank,I never have, so if theres some reason that red clay is best for him to use, then by all means, he should go for it... I was only trying to find him a cheap source of clay nearby...or at least a bus ride or two away hopefully...


I know that I had a tough time finding red clay in increments less than 25 lbs, until my local art school actually just gave me a few pounds. 

My understanding is that it is precisely the iron content of red clay that makes it attractive as a substrate component, going with what I saw on Aaron Talbott's breakdown, itself a recap of Sean's "recipe," as I understand it. Also going with that method, if ones presume 40# of useful topsoil (assumes, for the sake of argument, since much of it is lost in sifting/wet/dry cycles), given the suggested 5-10% of clay, that would be 2-4# of clay needed.

All that said, pretty tough to pass up the recycled clay you linked to - great resource. I am going to look into this, as I would like to experiment with lots of different methods for not only mineralizing soil, but different approaches to soil enrichment. Wonder if they ship?

[Lots of Berkeley or near-Berkeley folks here....Cal, '86. Say hi to the area from a native!].


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## Curator

ahhh, well if the iron is most of whats needed, if the optimal percentage for there to be in the clay is known, one could take care of that pretty easily by mixing the clay with some powdered fe203 (very fine powdered red iron oxide.) which is rather cheap as well I might add... 30 pounds is like $42-$50 on ebay after shipping, smaller amounts are much cheaper though... thats usually what we used in our studio whenever we made our own red clay... theres actually an area where I live thats pretty much all red clay, its more like a reddish orange, but its so high in iron that occasionally the ground rusts, and everything down stream from the little creeks that runs through there is stained rust...lol... only problem is its down hill from a big cattle ranch, I dont think it would be safe to use...


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## Coltonorr

I may be wrong but I don't know if I would add oxides into the substrate. 
one of the reasons why garden center "dolomitic lime" isn't good is because of the Ca and Mg oxides they contain. Again I could be wrong...just a thought


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## Curator

what? Ca? as in calcium? calcium oxide? or am I mistaken? and yeah, I know mg oxide is toxic, but im pretty sure iron oxide isnt toxic, well specifically fe203, some people even use the stuff to supplement their diet...and I used to use it frequently in ceramics, and still occasionally use it...for *cough*thermite*cough*...lol...

edit: oh btw, red clay is made red by iron oxide being naturally present in the clay... im not sure about adding it in, but I know thats what makes it red in the first place...


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

I feel dumb now. I bought dolomite LIME at osh, just a few minutes ago, then i ripped open the box because i was curious to see what it looked like. Now i dont know if they will return it.........


This mineralized soil had better be worth it!
There is a lot of crap involved, and you need to find a bunch of oddball ingredients, spend a lot of time playing with dirt, laying it out ect.... and making a big mess all over.


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## Coltonorr

Curator said:


> what? Ca? as in calcium? calcium oxide? or am I mistaken? and yeah, I know mg oxide is toxic, but im pretty sure iron oxide isnt toxic, well specifically fe203, some people even use the stuff to supplement their diet...and I used to use it frequently in ceramics, and still occasionally use it...for *cough*thermite*cough*...lol...
> 
> edit: oh btw, red clay is made red by iron oxide being naturally present in the clay... im not sure about adding it in, but I know thats what makes it red in the first place...


 
like I said I could be wrong...:icon_redf
Also I found out that the tan or gray clay is fine.

Discus, 
I felt the same way, it was a real PITA to find some of the ingredients, but judging from some of the tanks I is well worth it!


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## DiscusIt'sWhats4DinneR

I was able to find the "real" Dolomite at a local place!!
and ive got my muriate of potash.. Only thing that i still need is the clay.....



Ive had the dirt laying around outside on a tarp for a while. I havent returned it to the container since the initial soak, i just keep dumping water on it and mixing it around every couple days with a square nosed shovel. 

I am interested in seeing the end result, ive only grown plants in an inert sand thus far, save for the addition of root tabs and bottom layer laterite.


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## CLASSIC

I posted this a page or so back but will repost. You can get red clay in powdered form (only difference is it hasnt had water added yet) in any weight shipped right to your door. It is all natural and is cheap. I bought 5 lbs for $5.50. 

http://www.georgies.com/


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## Coltonorr

Discus,
I would make sure you soak and pour off a few times. The point of the soaking and draining before drying is to get rid of any fertilizers and soluble chemicals. Basically its like rinsing the dirt...:icon_smil


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## Chad

CLASSIC said:


> I posted this a page or so back but will repost. You can get red clay in powdered form (only difference is it hasnt had water added yet) in any weight shipped right to your door. It is all natural and is cheap. I bought 5 lbs for $5.50.
> 
> http://www.georgies.com/


Which clay was it that you bought?


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## CLASSIC

I actually live near the store/company. I went in and noticed they had dozens of colors of clays which led me to ask if the clay is actually tinted. They said no, that every shade of clay is naturally that color and is mined from specific mines. Anyhow i asked the gentleman for 5 lbs of red and he brought out a small bag with a label that just said "Red Clay Art". You dont have to get powdered btw, you can get mixed already.  Very nice people.


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## TheCryptKeeper

you have to be careful especially with art clays.. they contain polymers which you don't want in the aquarium.


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## plantbrain

CaMg(CO3)2 , 

You know, dolomite, not the other stuff folks are discussing..........try a landscaping place and see what they have for 10-20 mesh white sands.......they are most often a nice white dolomite.

All you are doing is using a form of carbonate rock(eg adds KH-> buffers the redox/pH) and doing so slower than say Aragonite or calcite etc, and it adds some Mg as well.

The mineralized top soil should.............if it's mineralized, have a stable pH however, most all mineralized aquatic sediments tend to neutral. If the carbon has been mineralized as well fairly good, then the redox will also not drop much.

Add some roots.........healthy plants, etc, then there's no way the pH or redox will be an issue, thus you likely have little use for Dolomite or any carbonates.....................now it does not hurt to add that, or most things to sediments.....but I doubt you "need" it if you plant well from the start and mineralize the sediment well. I wonder if it really helps also. 

If you have mineralized the sediment correctly, it has little function near as I can tell(pH/acidity, Redox etc).

You can look at Steve Pusak's old post on sediments also.
Jamie's research(does not address bioavailability for the % of each nutrient element listed however) SiO2 is glas,s hardly a bioavailable source of O2 etc.........


http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm

http://home.infinet.net/teban/

While many of Steve's topics focus on many tangents, the main factors in wetland soils are O2, Redox and reduced carbon and how plant roots influence these parameters. A good book on the topic has been released by who many consider the world's top expert in the field, R Reddy.

http://www.amazon.com/Biogeochemistry-Wetlands-Applications-Ramesh-Reddy/dp/1566706785

It's a fairly new and up to date book.
Well worth a read if you honestly are interested in muck:redface:

I took Reddy's course at grad school. A good one if you want to learn about wetland soils and the dynamics etc


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bjc777***

can i get the same minerals in chushed corals as in white sand or pebbles from the beach??


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## metageologist

bjc777*** said:


> can i get the same minerals in chushed corals as in white sand or pebbles from the beach??


crushed coral is primaroly CaCO3 ie aragonite along with what ever minerals were present in the surroundin water while it grew but these will only be in trace amounts. 

as for white sands this is just white quartz ie Si02. 

as for the pebbles that you find on the beach they could be any thing ranging from granit, gabros, slate, shale, lime stone realy any thing so unless you realy know your rocks i wouldnt use them with out IDing then first


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## bjc777***

oh ok thanks alot. is there anything where i can get CaCO3?? or a good replacement for dolomite??


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## Soup12

Will this work for mineralized top soil


http://www.petstore.com/estes-dolom...se&utm_campaign=pscseggl2&utm_content=EG50407


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## lochaber

I'm sure it's dolomite, but the description has a bit about all their products being resin coated. 

Not sure if that's just a blanket statement, or if they actually do coat everything. If it is coated, it probably wouldn't be much use, since the coating would effectively seal off the dolomite from the tankwater/substrate.


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## DragnX

So does anyone gotten any dolomite lately? And where can I find some? I live in the city and nobody seems to have this mysterious item.


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