# Anyone actually beat established thread algae without algae eaters?



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I've got a tank that has a massive thread algae problem. Here's a pic.










I've been going through all heck, for quite a number of months. My attempts to understand the root cause and eliminate this beast has been reasonably methodical and systematic IMO. But so far I am failing.

All of that is documented in painful,mind-numbing detail this thread.

My tank is an attempt at a biotope, and within that biotope there are no real thread algae eater except flag fish, or similar fish, that have a tendency to be aggressive and plant eaters. So I don't consider them good choices for thread algae eaters. In fact, within this biotope (Gulf Coastal US waters) there appear to be NO good thread algae eaters. So my question...

*Do you have any direct experience with actually beating thread algae, once it got established, without the use of algae eaters?*​
I'm having trouble finding anyone actually doing that here at PT, except maybe here.

Lot's of people with advice on how to get rid of it. But I'm struggling to find one good example of someone that actually had it, and had it bad, and then beat it without the use of algae eaters. If that is you, _please_, what did you do?

Thanks.


PS - Please don't ask me details about my water, tank, fish, lights... I'm not looking to diagnose the source of the problem here. You can go to my tank thread for that. I'm just looking to find out if someone has actually beaten this beast, and if so, how.

PPS - I really appreciate everyone's help in my thread. I'm raising this broader question to the community at large because I figure my tank thread has been around so long, that if I posted this question there, it would get limited viewing.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I have dealt with thread algae in the past/present so I will put some pictures together. I was hoping that my orange tailed goodeid would work like Ameca splendens (at least on the right continent!) but there is still thread in that tank. So when it goes away at least I rule the fish out.


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## Big Bob (Apr 16, 2006)

I beat it but my tanks only 32gal(UK) and contains discus so its a whole difrent ball game. Ill tell u what i did incase it helps. 1st off i swaped my 1600k bulb for a 9000k(giving me 5500k,7500k and 9000k). installed 1/2l of Phosphate remover(rowaphos)as i add alot of food that contains s**t loads of po4 so even with the po4 relover ill still have abit floating about. I also went from 1 35% water changes a week to 4/5 35% water changes a week. I also doubled my co2 and ferts.
If i were you id stop useing the PMDD and switch 2 the seachem ferts for a while 2 see what happens. 
Hope this helps
Goood luck geezer


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*BlueRam *- a nice, benign, indigenous algae eater would have been a nice solution. Since those are not available to me I'm looking for the voice of experience that knows how to beat it. Do you know? You've seen the thread, it's killin' me.

*Big Bob *- I appreciate the reply, but it sounds like it went away and you don't know why. I understand that you changed one bulb out of a set of three, dramatically increase your water change frequency (that's too much for me in this 75g - too much water, too much time), and increased your fert dosage except PO4 that you tried hard to remove. Too many variables.


I'm sorry if I seem picky. Take a look at my thread and you can understand why. I'm just about through trying things. If I can't find someone that had it, had it bad, got rid of it, and knows how they did it, without something that ate it, then I'm about to tear down my tank and start all over.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

The two things that seemed to have coincided with the fall of the hair/thread algae in my 125 (the only tank that had it) was increases in both CO2 and potassium. I upped the CO2 to 50-60ppm (according to my Milwaukee pH controller and API KH test kit), and I also started dosing ~60ppm of potassium (via K2SO4) per week.

But I lean more towards the potassium as my savior since the algae literally disappeared within days of the start of supplemental K dosing.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Several of my tanks have had it so I know that I have beat it. I have one tank currently that is going through it that I am keeping an eye on. I need to get some pictures together though.



scolley said:


> *BlueRam *- a nice, benign, indigenous algae eater would have been a nice solution. Since those are not available to me I'm looking for the voice of experience that knows how to beat it. Do you know? You've seen the thread, it's killin' me.
> 
> I'm sorry if I seem picky. Take a look at my thread and you can understand why. I'm just about through trying things. If I can't find someone that had it, had it bad, got rid of it, and knows how they did it, without something that ate it, then I'm about to tear down my tank and start all over.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

bharada said:


> But I lean more towards the potassium as my savior since the algae literally disappeared within days of the start of supplemental K dosing.


THATS the kind of info I'm looking for Bill. I've done the CO2 thing until I'm blue in the face. CO2 is not killing this stuff. But supplemental K could do the trick. When you said 60 ppm, do you mean 60 ppm overall, including the K that you probably put in the tank through your K2SO4, KH2PO4, and the amounts naturally found in your tank water?

Or do you mean you just figured the dose of K2SO4 necessary to bring your tank to 60 ppm, ignoring all those other factors?


And *BlueRam *- There are few people here who's advice I can be as certain of being right as yours. I believe you had it - did you have it bad? Pics are fine, but I've got lots of pics. I wanna know how you killed it.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

I've beat it similar to the way Bill did. However, I pruned out as much as I could possibly see...dumped in a bunch of hornwort as a background filler to replace what I had chopped...added a bit more potassium to balance the nitrogen and phosphorus and upped the co2 considerably. Of course, now I have lower lighting than before so things have been much easier to manage for the past year.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Georgiadawgger said:


> I've beat it similar to the way Bill did. However, I pruned out as much as I could possibly see...dumped in a bunch of hornwort as a background filler to replace what I had chopped...added a bit more potassium to balance the nitrogen and phosphorus and upped the co2 considerably. Of course, now I have lower lighting than before so things have been much easier to manage for the past year.


Dawgger - it would appear that we are talking a different scale. Assuming scale matters... if I pruned as much as I could possibly see, I'd have to remove every single plant from my tank. It would be an empty tank.

Do you think that still applies? Would it have worked if you left everything in the tank? Because I'd have to dump in a few pounds of hornwort to replace everything I pulled out.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

scolley said:


> THATS the kind of info I'm looking for Bill. I've done the CO2 thing until I'm blue in the face. CO2 is not killing this stuff. But supplemental K could do the trick. When you said 60 ppm, do you mean 60 ppm overall, including the K that you probably put in the tank through your K2SO4, KH2PO4, and the amounts naturally found in your tank water?


Steve,
I started adding 60ppm of K via K2SO4. This was above and beyond what was present from KH2PO4 and KNO3.

My logic was that my high fish load was probably adding a bunch of P and NO3 so K was the only thing left to add.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Bill - How frequently did you dose to that level? And did you maintain 50% weekly water changes while doing that, to keep accumulated concentrations from shooting through the roof? 

And thanks for the reply.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

scolley said:


> Bill - How frequently did you dose to that level? And did you maintain 50% weekly water changes while doing that, to keep accumulated concentrations from shooting through the roof?
> 
> And thanks for the reply.


Steve,
I was adding it with my tri-weekly macro doses, so 20ppm 3x/week. I did continue to do my 40-50% weekly water changes. A fellow SFBAAPS member took a sample of my tank water and tested it for K. He reported back that I had 90ppm.

I still maintain the same dosing levels albiet now it's via daily auto doses. . The thread algae has never returned, but I still duke it our regularly with GS on my Lobelia. :icon_mad:


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## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

i had a bout with it i have small tanks 10 and 12 gallon and others , I used seachem liquid ferts after switching to pmdd premix problem disappeared i belive i was under dosing and not in the proper preportions with the premix i ordered KH2PO4 and add it seperatly on the odd days.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Bill - without knowing what other levels you were dosing (or supplementing with fish) of N & P, you are describing the only "change" and the CO2 increase, and the K2SO4 increase. I've got CO2 very high, so I'm gonna eliminate that, and assume it was the K dosing.

I've run the math, and dosing K2SO4 to 60 ppm, assuming moderate KNO3 and KH2PO4 doses, and moderate K levels in your tap water, and assuming 50% water changes, you would level out at 90 ppm if your K uptake rate was around 3 ppm/day. Given that I've read that it can be about 50% more than the N update rate, that equates to about 2ppm uptake a day of KNO3.

_So your friend's 90 ppm measurement sounds about right._

So I would conclude that either:

1) The 90 ppm level of K2SO4 is somehow toxic to thread algae
2) Or you were just underdosing K2SO4 before, and just swung the pendulum in the opposite direction.

Any idea of your N and P levels at that time?


And dschmeh, I appreciate the response, but it does not have enough specific information to be actionable. More details?


But just in case it's all about toxic levels of K2SO4, I've already dumped enough into my tank to bring this weeks total dosing to 60 ppm. And I don't have the patience to wait the 4 weeks or so for it to creep up to 90. I'm gonna boost it to that after my water change tonight. We'll know if that's it soon enough. Thanks.


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## uncskainch (Feb 22, 2005)

If all else fails (and it looks like you're getting some good ideas for things to try here), would you be averse to adding some non-indigenous algae eaters for a while and then removing them to another tank when the thread algae is under control? I'm sure you've thought of that, but just wanted to throw it out there as a possible (though less elegant) partial solution.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

uncskainch said:


> If all else fails (and it looks like you're getting some good ideas for things to try here), would you be averse to adding some non-indigenous algae eaters for a while and then removing them to another tank when the thread algae is under control? I'm sure you've thought of that, but just wanted to throw it out there as a possible (though less elegant) partial solution.


Yeah, I've thought of that. Thanks. Tried ghost shrimp - worthless. And have explored SAE's, but they are not available around here at the moment, and I'd need about 50 anyway - too much money. Same problem with Amanos - mucho denero for enough to make a dent. It would take a few hundred just to eat what accumulates on a daily basis.

Besides - once the algae is gone, I've got two problems. First, getting the cleaning crew out of the tank. And second, and most important, keeping the algae gone after the cleaning crew is removed. That's the big problem, and that's why I started this thread. To see if anyone has beaten it without something that at it.


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## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

I cant be more specific as i dont know your tank param , set ect. 
what happened to me was i wasnt dosing in the proper ratios . My N was good and P or K would be low and vica versa. I switched to pmdd premix and started to monitor my levels and once they came in line the algae disappeared. I find algae is usually caused by a improper ratio not enough or inconsistand fert and or co2. I switched to EI pressurized co2 and I over dose a bit but do the 50% water change on sunday to reset the tank in case i dose to much . Ive had excellent results . check out http://www.barrreport.com/ ive found more detailed information there and tom (plantbrain) answers most questions directly . sorry i cant be more helpful im a long time salt dog and new planted tanks.
Dave


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

I had something that looked like that in my tank. I increased the water current by putting in a power head. The extra current kept it from getting established. I still had to prune off most of the gross stuff. However, new growth was not botherd by it at all. 

Rick


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

scolley said:


> Dawgger - it would appear that we are talking a different scale. Assuming scale matters... if I pruned as much as I could possibly see, I'd have to remove every single plant from my tank. It would be an empty tank.
> 
> Do you think that still applies? Would it have worked if you left everything in the tank? Because I'd have to dump in a few pounds of hornwort to replace everything I pulled out.


Yeah, we probably are talking about differing matters of scale. Is it really that bad? You could potentially prune everything out...literally restart, but that would be so much of a major PITA...and expensive too (replacing plants). 

Something is out of whack...(scratches head).


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*dschmeh *- thanks. that's what I needed to know. you switched to IE, using typical Barr ratios. 'Nuff said. Thanks.

*rrguymon *- I've got two Pro II's in a 75g, kicking up LOTS of current. In fact, I'm positive too much current ADDS to the problem, not the other way around.

That, and MANY MANY more details of this particular blight can be found in this thread, and I'm sorry. But I'm loath to repeat it all in this thread. Too many details, too many things tried that proved to my satisfaction, to be just another wild-goose chase.

*Dawgger *- it is absolutely a matter of scale. Take a look at the 5 linked pics below. This was what the tank looked like after I skipped my normal daily 30 minute routine of manual algae removal for 5 days on a row. Now in these shots I suspect a die-off of ghost shrimp from excess CO2 levels probably contributed to the problem. But it gives you an idea of the scale.
Pic1
Pic2
Pic3
Pic4
Pic5



But before you dispair, this is what it looked like day before yesterday. The stuff cleans off easily. But it takes 1/2 hour every day. And it comes back at a blistering pace.










I really don't want to diagnose the problem in this thread. I've got a thread where people have been trying to help me diagnose this for months.

I started this thread because I've tried many things, and have a few things yet to try. But before I go to any more trouble (this is getting to be a royal PITA), I'm looking to see if there exists anyone that can say...

_"Yes, I've had it that bad. I killed it without an algae eating crew, and I know how I did it."_


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

Scolley, SAEs don't eat hair-thread algae anyway, so dont' bother. I've heard that mollies do, and they are indigenous to the gulf coast. I've seen several varieties of them in the wild there. At least they used to be there. With the pollution, who knows.

Anyway, I'm having exactly the same problem in my Discus showtank. I'm taking a course of action suggested by some who claim to have licked the problem, but won't bother you with the details until I actually can claim victory. I'll be following your other thread, and this one to see if you have luck before I do. I've put up a journal at SimplyDiscus.com to document my success or failure for others with similar problems and advice. I'll direct you to it if things start getting better.

You're doing a better job of cleaning off your algae than I can. How are you doing it?

Good luck!

Al Light


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Hi Steve. Good luck with the K dosing. Hope that works.

Before I go blabbing about my story, I want to make sure that you and I have had the same stuff. So, take a look at these photos and tell me what you think.

March 9, 2005










April 19, 2005










May 13, 2005










Closeups:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Have you tried an algacide?..lol

I have had every kind of algae you can think of, induced it even, just to kill it,(some not so easy to kill) I have even had some show up after changing certain thing's, light's, filter media, to much of this, not enough of that etc. 

Got a small outbreak I am working on now with my 29, and watching it go byebye:icon_bigg Changed media without properly seeding it.

And I am *not* about to go through that other thread of your's, no sir uh uh... I value my time...

So yeah, I have had it that bad, and I know what to do to get rid of it. you won't kill it, you can stop it from growing though.

Honestly
I am reluctant to even make this post!

The first thing I will tell you to do, is toss the test kit's they have gotten you nowhere, and raise the light fixture above the tank more, dose a set amount of nutrient's to a known volume of water, clean out what you can and be patient, the light is the driving force, without it, nothing plantwise will grow.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

scolley said:


> Any idea of your N and P levels at that time?


According to the API NO3 kit this tank has always been in the 20ppm range. The RedSea PO4 kits indicates 1.5-2ppm.


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Honestly
> I am reluctant to even make this post!
> 
> The first thing I will tell you to do, is toss the test kit's they have gotton you nowhere, and raise the light fixture above the tank more, dose a set amount of nutrient's to a known volume of water, clean out what you can and be patient, the light is the driving force, without it, nothing plantwise will grow.


I am reluctant too. However, I read a bit through the other thread. Before you tear down the tank, I think you need to use the tried and true method. I know you do not want to go EI. But EI works. I suggest you try EI temporarily to ensure your ferts are in order. 

If EI and pruning clear up your algea after a few weeks, you know it was ferts. After it is cleared up you can work on fine tuning your ferts (and test kit calibration) and get away from the EI flush. If EI does not clear it up then maybe you can look at something else. 

Rick


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*rrguymon *- Good and fair point about EI. I'll do that. If you read my thread, you understand my objections to EI. And as you know, I'm not knocking it. I'm just saying it's not for me, and list the reasons in my thread. But if the algae does not take over the tank before I can get to that, I'll do it.


*Alight *- Good luck! Lemme know if you crack the puzzle. And you are dead-on about mollies. My problem is I'm not particularly fond of mollies, and I gather the indigneous one can be a bit aggressive, and eat plants. So to my mind, they arn't much different than the flag fish, which I have given up on. But maybe I should give them more consideration.


*unirdna *- That is dramatically similar to what I have Ted. But not quite identical. Very close. So I'd be interested in the method. If you know what it was that did it. Thanks.


*Wö£fëñxXx* - Yeah Craig, that thread is long, long, long. So let me put it in a nutshell. And questions of "how I know" will have to just refer to that thread:

1) My problem is NOT defecient CO2. My CO2 is AMPLE, depending on how you want to measure, and what you trust, it could be as low as the low 40s, or it could be as high as the 90s.
2) It is NOT excess fish load. Almost no fish in the tank.
3) It is NOT rotting wood, or some such. All that has been removed.
4) It will NOT be solved by Florish Excel. Been there, done that.
5) It is NOT from insuffecient plant mass IMO. Look at the picture.
6) It is NOT from too much light. Have to refer to the thread for that one...
7) It is NOT from insuffecient nutrients for the plants. Again, you gotta refer to the thread.

What are the known possible causes. What could it be?
1) Lack of excess nutrients. As mentioned earlier in this post, Ted's level of K could be toxic to thread algae. It is ABSOLUTELY way beyond the needs of his plants. But he credits it with keeping the aglae at bay.
2) Too little light. You mentioned this Craig, and I cranked up the lights a couple of days ago, just in case this was the cause. This algae thrives in low light. Does better than the plants as a matter of fact.
3) Presence of excess siliates in the water. This algae is known to thrive in conditions with excess silicates, and I started this tank with 10 lbs or so of pool sand (silica) in it, and it has since unfortunately completely mixed with the EC substrate.
4) Other problems with the substrate. EC has a bad rep now, and this batch was a replacement for one of the known "bad" batches. Maybe this batch was funky. Who's to say?

My known additonal courses of action are:
1) Try a true algaecide. Do know one that won't kill plants or fish?
2) Give my boosted light a bit more time - only into that for 2 days now.
3) Boost nutrient up to levels beyond the base needs of plants (as am doing now with K2SO4. Will be trying that next BTW.
4) Blackout.

Why do I want to raise lights? Better spread?

Thanks for the post.


*bharada *- Thanks for the info on the levels. If I raised my N by 5 ppm I'd be there now. And I'm talking level (as in all the time as you know you can achieve with autodosers), not the amount I "dose" to. With autodosers, if set up right, the two things can be one and the same.


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## uncskainch (Feb 22, 2005)

Yeah, I figured algae eaters would be (a) expensive and (b) a pain to get out of the tank. And I know you're looking for a permanent fix -- not something that will fix the problem but when it's removed, the problem will come right back. But having read up on green water, there seems to be some folks who think that once it's established, changing the conditions (lights, ferts, etc.) to conditions that don't favor it alone won't get rid of it, BUT if you get rid of it through some means (blackout, UV, diatom, etc.) then if your conditions are non-greenwater-encouraging, it won't come back even after you remove the "quick fix" cure. So I was wondering if it's possible that this thread algae is working the same way -- you've got your water conditions and everything set up fine, but until you kill it, it's inclined to hang around anyway. And if that's the case, then a temporary algae crew (if affordable) might be worth a try -- they could do the job then be removed.

The indigenous mollies might be worth trying. And shrimp aren't incredibly long-lived, so you could try amanos if you could get enough to make it worth your while -- they won't reproduce in freshwater and so you could always wait out their lifespan (not sure how long that is) or assume that predatory fish in your tank might pick them off a few at a time?

But I haven't beaten thread algae in my own tank without algae eaters, so I'll now just retreat to the shadows and follow the thread from a distance, having added my 2 cents!


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## nater3 (Nov 6, 2004)

If this has been answered already don't bother with a reply as I am far too lazy to read the other thread on this.
What kind of iron levels are present in your water?
I know that I had a massive thread algae problem because of a high-iron situation. hehe.

ok.
While typing this post I have been googling for iron/algae stuff.
Right on chucks planted aquarium page there is this little blurb.


> Primarily a problem when there is excess iron in the water. High iron normally results from excess fertilization, but some water supplies have high iron levels (especially well water). When I was over-dosing my 29g tank with Seachem Flourish, I got lots of this stuff. Reducing dosage of iron containing fertilizers completely eliminated the problem.


another interesting article. http://www.bulletin.uwaterloo.ca/2005/aug/22mo.html
And a snippet.


> She explains: "Adding iron doesn't appear to stimulate algae growth, but it does allow algae to take up more nitrogen. That, in turn, stimulates algae growth and allows more phosphorus uptake. If you add all three, you get the most growth, as opposed to adding any one singly."


edit http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9912/msg00445.html

Thread Algae- Grows in long, thin strands up to 30 cm or more. Tends toward a dull green color (hard to tell because it is so thin). Usually indicates an excess of iron (> 0.15 ppm).
http://aquarium.bluemoon.net/tammy/algae.html


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

uncskainch said:


> you could try amanos... assume that predatory fish in your tank might pick them off a few at a time?


That's a great idea actually! Thanks.


nater3 - It's not excess iron. Thanks. You'd have to read my painful thread, but early on I made sure it was not that. And I can tell you, if I put anything in the tank with iron in it, the stuff does indeed explode.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Bump!*

Well this is a hoot!

I'm looking for someone that can tell me how to rid a tank of thread algae, once it has gotten established, without employing critters to eat it, and I'm drawing blanks! Who'd 'a thunk it?

Bill has offered something (high CO2 and high K) that worked for him. I've had high CO2 for a while, and now very high K for a few days, without changing any other conditions - and if anything it's getting worse. So thanks for the input Bill... and I will give it a few more days. But it seems to have worked for you, while I seem to be under some other nasty curse.

Also, I've gotten a PM from a member that I really trust, who has had multiple occasions where they employed the same technique to much success. Unfortunately it revolved around the use higher concentrations of their tap water. So it's a solution I can't duplicate, becuase the benefits their tap water brought could be anything really.

I'm looking for direct, specific, and actionable information, and I'm drawing blanks.​
But if I get that, from a credible source that has had it (not traces of it, but had it _established _in a tank) and got rid of it, and can tell me how to do it (Not vague references like "balance your ferts", but actionable, discreet information like "X ppm of this, and Y ppm of that, with NNN lumens of light), then by gum I'll do it! I've got a tank full of this crap with nothing to lose but time.

I know a good number of people watch my tank thread, and many people have reviewed this one. If this community knew how to solve the problem, I should have heard it by now....

Frankly the lack of direct, specific, and actionable advice speaks volumes IMO.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

scolley said:


> 1) My problem is NOT defecient CO2. My CO2 is AMPLE, depending on how you want to measure, and what you trust, it could be as low as the low 40s, or it could be as high as the 90s.
> 2) It is NOT excess fish load. Almost no fish in the tank.
> 3) It is NOT rotting wood, or some such. All that has been removed.
> 4) It will NOT be solved by Florish Excel. Been there, done that.
> ...


Steve,
Wanna bet? :smile: 

If your dosing is close to this:

3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week

Then all that is left for error is light and or C02,
My money is on you having poor C02, your reactor sucks, toss it and get some glass diffusers, clean the piss out of the tank again, dose:

3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week
With glass diffuser in path of current, start out at about 2 or 3 bps,
Dont touch a test kit, and yank out the probe, pay it no attention.

Run the C02 24/7 for awhile, use the lily pipe to create surface movement, even a small splash at night, lower it in the day, this will give good 02 and knock out any surface scum.



> Why do I want to raise lights? Better spread?
> 
> I've told you this before, but you assured me you had if nailed down, just like all the other parametes you have listed above, just for once, go against reason, and learn the plants, to hell with your test kits and probe, they are lying to you.
> 
> ...


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

scolley said:


> Frankly the lack of direct, specific, and actionable advice speaks volumes IMO.


Sigh...

Character limit yadda yadda.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> If your dosing is close to this:
> 
> 3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
> 3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
> ...


Thanks Craig! I'm not dosing anywhere near that. But that is my next test.

My CO2 is cranking. Granted knowing that requires trusting a KH test kit and pH probe. But because I don't trust them, I've got 7.01 solution to calibrate the probe. And a 2nd pH probe that reads the same as the 1st probe. And a pH test kit that read the same as the two probes. And because I don't trust the KH test kit I've got a 2nd KH kit that also reads the same. And in case I want corroboration of the kit results, their reading is exactly what I think it should be after I add a measured amount of baking soda to bring my normally very low KH tap water up. With all this stuff saying the same thing I'm inclined to believe it. PLUS if I do one of those differential CO2 tests, where you let water out-gas over nite, that reads even higher numbers.

Long story short. The CO2 is fine. It's at least 50 ppm. Peaking out higher. But I'll raise it a bit more.

So then there is light. I misunderstood your point about light driving things. I thought you meant driving vibrant plant growth (more being good). But it seems you meant it was driving the algae (more light being instead bad).

And last week I raised my light levels. I've got a whole rationale for that on my thread. But I'm in a definite situation here of SOMETHING I believe has got to be wrong, so I've backed down today to a real minimal light - 108 watts of well reflected T5's for 9 hours. When you factor in BlueRam's "T12 Multiplier" for the efficiency T5's, and my own estimate of the extra light kicked out by the improved reflection in a Tek T5 vs. your average T12 NO fixture, in my 75g, I figure that to be the equivalent of about 2 WPG in a T12 NO setup (give or take a fraction of a WPG). 

And I've raised the lights about 4 inches. That puts the bulbs about 8" over the water surface. If I go any higher, the lights shine in my 5' 4" wife's eyes. So it might not be high enough, but I've got to stop there for her comfort.

All that leaves is ferts! I'm not running the levels you are suggesting Craig. I know they work for you and many other people. I use a lot less. And I firmly believe that I'm dosing enough. But I'm the one with the bad algae problem, so I've got to recognize that SOMETHING I believe is wrong. So once I rule out the light (that will take a few days) I'll be turning off the autodosers, putting the test kits in a drawer, and faithfully tossing in your doses. 

Thanks!


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Scolley, how long did you use Flourish excel and at what levels?

Your photos look exactly like the algae the plagued my tank. I used excel at about 4 to 5 times the recommended dosage for over a month, and now my tank has absolutely no algae of any kind whatsoever.

I ask because I almost quit because after three weeks there didn't seem to be much difference. In fact the transformation was almost imperceptible. I couldn't really tell you when it happened, but I noticed one day that my tank had no algae. None!

Though, I must confess I still get a bit of the green dust on the glass by week's end, but in hind sight it's acceptable 

Update: I searched your tank thread.. looks like you dosed Excel for 10 days. That just won't cut it. I saw no improvement at all after 10 days.

I also don't think you were dosing heavily enough. I keep some pretty sensitive fish- wild apistogramma and blue rams.. They have been just fine. I was dosing about 15 mls per day in 29 gallons. That's a LOT of excel.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

For the record I want to say that I am very skeptical of claims that simply adjusting dosing or CO2 will wipe out algae. I certainly didn't find these approaches to be useful in getting rid of the algae.

It may stop it from progressing further, and if it's in the early stages of infestation may get rid of it, and nobody doubts a good fert regmine and good CO2 will prevent algae, but a tank with fully established algae like in the photos above, I think it will take a bigger change than just ferts and CO2 to actually get rid of the algae.

But what do I know I am just a noob.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Steve, I could probably find this if I dig long enough.. but what's your water source? Just regular city water? If so that's potentially many unknown variables influencing your tank. There is no telling what kinds of things are in city water that don't even get tested for on the city water report.

I said to hell with city water, and now I use 100% RO reconstituted with GH Booster and baking soda. Plants are kicking arse and taking names, algae is gone.. Just an idea.. albeit an expensive one.. but the more unknowns you eliminate.. the better!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Barry - my Excel dosing was admittedly on the conservative side - worried about the fish. I dosed 18ml a day for two weeks (2.5 times recommended dosage), except for water changes when I dosed 35ml. I stopped the excel, rather than boost it because on two occasions I turned off the filters, let the water settle, and found a nice patch right on the bottom, and slowly applied to entire dose to it via a syringe. In both cases those patches looked just fine the next day, and the day after. So I concluded (possibly incorrectly) that it wasn't working with this algae. You were dosing apparently twice the level I was.

I hate to think I need to go back over that territory.  I would have thought the direct syringe method would have toasted the test patches, if this stuff was susceptible to Excel.

As for my water supply, I've go full reports. And I think I'm on top of the stuff that matters. But I've not really worried about it because my 20g uses the same water, and I've got no algae problems there. But I do have to use baking soda, epsom salts, and crushed coral in my filter to make up for it's deficiencies and low, low KH/GH.


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## uncskainch (Feb 22, 2005)

I suppose if you wanted to just do a 24-48 hour test of Excel on the hair algae, you could pull up a bit of hairgrass and plant it in a mason jar with tank water and then dose it with Excel at a high rate and see what happens. That wouldn't put your fish at risk and could give you a sense of what Excel's impact on the particular algae in your tank might be. Just a thought...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

uncskainch said:


> I suppose if you wanted to just do a 24-48 hour test of Excel on the hair algae, you could pull up a bit of hairgrass and plant it in a mason jar with tank water and then dose it with Excel at a high rate and see what happens. That wouldn't put your fish at risk and could give you a sense of what Excel's impact on the particular algae in your tank might be. Just a thought...


That's a good thought! Thanks Kathy, that beats risking the fish again. And it's easy to do it a really high concentrations of Excel, so it would be easy to conclude whether or not Excel affects the stuff - given high enough concentrations.

I'm going for that mason jar now...


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

scolley said:


> Barry - my Excel dosing was admittedly on the conservative side - worried about the fish. I dosed 18ml a day for two weeks (2.5 times recommended dosage), except for water changes when I dosed 35ml. I stopped the excel, rather than boost it because on two occasions I turned off the filters, let the water settle, and found a nice patch right on the bottom, and slowly applied to entire dose to it via a syringe. In both cases those patches looked just fine the next day, and the day after. So I concluded (possibly incorrectly) that it wasn't working with this algae. You were dosing apparently twice the level I was.
> 
> I hate to think I need to go back over that territory.  I would have thought the direct syringe method would have toasted the test patches, if this stuff was susceptible to Excel.


I didn't spot treat at all. That's just a PITA. I figured if it was going to work it was going to work.. 'aiming' the excel at specific areas didn't seem to make any sense.

Also Steve you should know that I use a method very similar to yours. Smaller daily doses. I started my tank on EI, but decided it was easier to just have the same routine every day. I mixed up a liquid fert of KNO3 and KH2PO4 which has a ratio of roughly 7 to 1 N to P and my test kits show I have about 10 ppm N and 1 to 2 ppm P. I don't dose K at all beyond what's in the two sources above. Micros from TMG (3 ml daily) and Flourish Fe @ 2.5 ml daily. I still do a weekly 50% water change. What I am saying is I think your method is just fine. It is working for me. I have since backed off to only 5 ml of excel daily, which is a little less than 2 times the recommended dosage. My goal is to back off to no excel at all. That will be the true test of my fert regime.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

banderbe said:


> I didn't spot treat at all. That's just a PITA. I figured if it was going to work it was going to work.. 'aiming' the excel at specific areas didn't seem to make any sense.


Thanks Barry. I wasn't spot treating - the "spot" would be too big.:icon_wink I was just spot testing, to see if the stuff was going to work at all.

But I've just taken Kathy's idea, and made 10x Excel concentration (0.5ml in 2L water) in some tank water with some plants floating in it. And it's in a little clear fish holding box, hanging on the side of the tank, so it's getting the same light as the tank. I chose some Hemianthus micranthemoides because it seems to do pretty well when just floated on the surface, and the algae loves it. So it will be a good test.

And thanks for confirming the numbers Barry. I personally know for certain that my numbers are solid - they've worked for many, many people for years, and have worked for me in the past. But it's nice to get a little backup.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Intermediate Results...*

Having taken Kathy's advice and tested this algae in a separate container, I've got my 5-day results...

The sample algae covered plant has been growing well in its separate container hanging on the top of the tank. It's been subjected to the same light as the tank, where algae is still growing.

The separate container is .5 liters, and has gotten 7 drops of Excel per day. By my calculations that's 10 times the concentration recommended by Seachem, and twice the concentration where people observed fish deaths in the famous Excel/Algae treatment thread.

The vast majority of the algae has fallen off the floating Hemianthus micranthemoides, where it appears to be on bottom of the container, still quite green. Though it is possible that the algae on the bottom of the container is some other form of algae, it looks the same, and is not attached to the bottom but is easily disturbed by water movement.

The old growth on the Hemianthus micranthemoides has a great deal less thread algae on it than it did 5 days ago. But it is not nearly free of it. There had been a lot. Now there is a little. So I will continue the test to see if it all falls away eventually.

The new growth is the scary part. All of the new growth (new leaves) has algae on it. Not in the density of the original plant when the test started. But the density of algae on the new growth is worse that than on the old leaves, where most has fallen off.

It looks like this high concentration of Excel has shaken off the old algae growth, but is not keeping new growth from continuing.

I'll continue the test for 5 more days before I conclude (as I had previously) that Excel does not kill this algae. But it does appear that very high concentrations may knock it back far enough that it could be controlled by algae eaters. Maybe.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

I'll venture a post, maybe this may be of some help.

I have a 75 gallon, initally with 240watts of NO light. I upgraded to to 300 watts (220 of CF from AH supply and 80 NO), and that's when I started getting massive hair and thread algae. I tried EI dosing, even at the higher levels with little effect. I tried turning up the CO2, all my shrimp and alot of my fish didn't make it. I got disgusted, stopped doing anything on the tank for a week, went on a weeks' vacation, came back and was still disgusted for a week, then I went to work.

First I pulled out the most affected plants, trimmed what looked like a lost cause, removed as much algae as I could from what I salvaged, and replanted.

I did a 80-90% water change to "zero" my levels as much as possible, then did another 50% water change (beacuse I kicked up alot of the red flourite dust that had settled on the bottom when I first started the tank).

Next I dosed N and P to get 15ppm and 2ppm respectively. I added 5ml of flourish and 5ml of flourish iron. Then I set to work with a daily dosing schedule. In a 250ml bottle, I added 3 tsp of KO3 and 1 tsp of K2PO4 and dosed daily - 5ml initially. I also dosed 5ml of flourish and flourish iron daily later in the day. 

I also adjusted the flow in my tank - added a powerhead to the front of the tank to get more movement.

Hair and thread algae did not return. Why? I dunno. To complicate matters further, I based my changes on the growth of plants - upped my N/P dosing to 7.5ml a day and eventually to 10ml/day with additional supplementing of PO4 twice a week to keep levels higher. I upped my micros to 10ml of flourish and 15ml of flourish iron daily (resulting in lusher growth and redder colors). I got a pH monitor, set it to 6.5. With still not adequate growth, I started upping my KH and now have daily pearling and good growth. (both the CO2 and the increased PO4 was to combat GSA, only algae in the tank since this new change. GSA is now gone as well). 


If I were to guess on what I did to make things better:

1)reset the water paramaters
2)increased flow in the tank
3) increased C02 (by increasing KH)
4)had a *stable* dosing regimen

If I were to try something for your tank - I would do 2-3 water changes to reset everything, use a dosing calculator to get 15ppm and 1-2ppm of N/P respectively, then do a dosing regimen - either daily or follow WolfenXXX's EI recomendations.

If you look at amounts, I dose daily and smaller doses per week than EI, but still do fine. But it is a stable and known amount. If you are still using the drip-type auto-dosers ditch that for the time being and go with one of the daily dosing schedules.

I haven't had any thread/hair algae since this change. No, I take that back. I have a betta breeder attached to the side wall to hold some extra plants after trimming. I did have thread algae in there, removed it, got some water flow to the box and has not come back.

Basically - listen to Craig!


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

Steve,
I think there may be a flaw in your test. Are you adding ferts to the .5L container? Is there water movement?

I ask because I've used a plastic floating hatchery as a way to keep control of plants that I am floating. Before long it was full of algae while the rest of the tank was fine. My theory is I had a lack of circulation creating a fert imbalance. Add to that how close things were to the lights and it gets worse. It's possible you would have _significantly more_ algae if you weren't dosing excel.

$.02


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

turbomkt said:


> Steve, I think there may be a flaw in your test. Are you adding ferts to the .5L container? Is there water movement?...
> 
> It's possible you would have _significantly more_ algae if you weren't dosing excel.
> 
> $.02


I think that is worth a lot more than $.02 Mike! No, it is a plastic container with NO water movement other than the stir I give it every morning after adding the excel. There is also the problem the the ferts are not being refreshed or added, though the plant is growing new, apparently healthy, leaves every day. I've been taking that as an indicator that nothing critical has bottomed out yet.

So, IMO your are right. It is an imperfect test. It does not appropriately mimic the conditions in the tank, and so its results should questioned.

But I do think that it does show that a 10x recommended concentration of Excel does not kill this algae. It might supress it, which might be demonstrate more conclusively in better test contidions. But toxic is toxic right? And it's not dead. Or am I missing something important?



*hooha *- Boy! Thanks for the well considered and detailed reply. Unfortunately it does me no good. You don't know what made your thread algae go away, unless it was the changes to the tank you listed. I've done all that. The only exception is that addition of iron, so I have to consider missing iron as the cause of all my woes. Except of course that my plants don't show signs of iron deficiency.

Even worse, my dosing regimen was remarkably similar to yours. And my dosing has been fantastically stable. Any disagreement due to the fact that I'm not tossing roughly measured spoons of power into my tank will have to remain just that - disagreement. Auto dosing, done right, can be massively more accurate in both the doses applied, and the consistency across time, than any daily dose with measuring spoons. But I digress...

Thanks for the well considered response. I'm afraid though that any of the possible things you list as possible solutions, I've already done. It's all in my thread...


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

I tried reading completely through your thread....til I realized there was over 1000 posts (!?!?!?)  I just speed-read through the remainder of it.

I actually autodose as well, but I'm using the Eheim auto-doser. Each setting puts in 1/4 teaspoon. It's just speculation because I've never used one before, but I've heard that the gravity dosers are very hard to get an accurate dosing (just another consideration to try something different). At our local plant club meeting another member said he was able to get rid of several alge types by dosing more micros(don't remember if he had thread or hair algae though off-hand).

I feel your frustration though going through it. I was hoping to get better growth by upgrading my light, never expected the scope of problems with algae I had after I did it. Hopefully the solution is just around the corner!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

hooha said:


> I actually autodose as well, but I'm using the Eheim auto-doser. Each setting puts in 1/4 teaspoon. It's just speculation because I've never used one before, but I've heard that the gravity dosers are very hard to get an accurate dosing (just another consideration to try something different).


My dosing is with a peristaltic pump, which can be blisteringly accurate. It's possible to suspect that, but errors there will not be from the doser, but instead from the math used to calculate the stock solutions or the duration of the dose. That is all correct, though I'll not go into that here. It's not the autodosers.

Though as you have said, there seem to be a lot of reports of getting rid of thread algae by micro dosing, even when it initially makes things worse as it does in my tank.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

Peristaltic pumps - that's my next project 

Wow, I just looked at your tank pics (around post 840), that looks pretty much what my tank looked like, except I was disgusted enough with the entire thing that I didn't clean it out every day. I waited until there was a nice 2 inch covering over the plants and the green slime covered the entire tank. It made the tank look like an eerie green, maybe that's part of my current infatuation with red plants.

I see alot of similarities between our tanks. Maybe some of the differences are contributing? I dose more micros/iron and I don't use a UV sterilizer. I would suggest turning off the sterilizer for a few weeks to see if that may help (it's definitely not helping with the algae, and unless you're going to add any new stock I don't think it would be a potential danger to your fauna).

I really hope you beat this stuff, being in the same situation a few months back.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*hooha *- When I do run the UV, I only run it at nite. Right now I'm running it just because I have new fish and shrimp, and my algae is abating... And I don't think anyone is going to stand up and say my thread algae is improving because I turned it on.

During this long fight the UV has been off for many weeks at a time, and alternately on (evenings only) for weeks at a time. I don't think it matters a bit. But out of general principal, now that the new fish are settling in, I'll be shutting it off soon.

If the tank does not "self-correct" soon I'll be moving to EI and our local Sticky recommended levels. That will include substantial quantities of micros, with iron in that, so I may be testing your hypothesis soon. Thanks.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

I subscribed to your threads and keeping my fingers crossed


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## Happy Camper (Sep 13, 2005)

Dear Steve

I too have quickly scanned through this thread so I don't know all the details but here's another suggestion:

Your problem is this: Too much light. Tone it down, there are several ways to approach this, depending on your lighting setup.

If you have a hood that can be raised then raise it about 30cm or slightly more from the top of the tank (from water level). This will give you nice 'ambient' light instead of 'blasting light' from a low level. Up your Macros 'slightly' but keep your traces where they are.

If your hood is not raisable then break your lighting cycle into stages. I do this: I have 3 tubes under the hood (about 15cm from water level). Timers set to have one 5500k bulb come on at 9am and runs the entire cycle till 5pm . The other 2 bulbs (6500k) come on at noon 12pm along with the co2 and run until 2pm. On my tank this gives me 3wpg but only for 2 hours a day.

I was able to not completely erradicate my hair algae but 95% of it has gone, its taken about 3 weeks to reach a managable stage. Also try not to manually remove the hair algae unless you are doing a water change aswell. Tugging and pulling it just releases more into the water column that will eventually settle and start new growth, thus actually making matters worse.

Instead of "adding more co2" or "addding more this and that" just cut the lights down a bit. This will give your tank time to 'relax' and better able to stabilise itself.

Please let me know if this worked for you aswell.

Warm Regards
Cameron James


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Happy Camper said:


> Also try not to manually remove the hair algae unless you are doing a water change aswell. Tugging and pulling it just releases more into the water column that will eventually settle and start new growth, thus actually making matters worse.


James, that is the best advice I've seen to date! Thanks! That is probably the greatest factor in why mine went from a problem to and epidemic.

I was operating on the typical "remove what you can manually" advice, and spending 1/3 hour a day doing so. That it until it got so bad that my efforts were just a drop in the bucket.

Based on what you are saying above (and I always did wonder about this possibility) I'm sure I was just fanning the flames. Well no more! I'm happy to give that up.




Happy Camper said:


> Your problem is this: Too much light. Tone it down, there are several ways to approach this, depending on your lighting setup.
> 
> If you have a hood that can be raised then raise it about 30cm or slightly more from the top of the tank (from water level). This will give you nice 'ambient' light instead of 'blasting light' from a low level. Up your Macros 'slightly' but keep your traces where they are.
> 
> If your hood is not raisable then break your lighting cycle into stages. I do this: I have 3 tubes under the hood (about 15cm from water level). Timers set to have one 5500k bulb come on at 9am and runs the entire cycle till 5pm . The other 2 bulbs (6500k) come on at noon 12pm along with the co2 and run until 2pm. On my tank this gives me 3wpg but only for 2 hours a day.


James - Have you read my thread, specifically read post 1021? If so, and you still believe what you are saying here, please let me know.

For you appear to be suggesting running at around 1 WPG most of the day, peaking at 3 WPG. Well, I'm running a what I think is a equivililent of 2 WPG all day. Post 926 in my tank thread will show how I come up with that, but please note that post shows an old light schedule that I have not been on for weeks. You can look at that post and assume I'm just burning 2 bulbs for the entire photoperiod, and you'll see why I call it 2 WPG.

In other words, I think I'm running low light now. Please let know if you really are suggesting lower, and can verify that this is what worked for you. Thanks.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Excel Test Conclusion*

As turbomkt pointed out, my Excel test on this is flawed. But in my response I pointed out what I still believe - toxic is toxic. So while I may have been testing in a tiny microcosm that could be swimming with the stuff if it were not for the Excel dosing - the fact remains that the Excel is not killing it all. In fact, it is still growing.

So now on day 11 (10 test days), I'm pulling the plug since the test conditions have been unchanged for days:

1) The plants are still growing
2) Most of the algae on old growth is gone, but not all
3) New grow develops algae too, but it takes a few days, and it is not vigorous.

My conclusion: 10X concentrations of Excel are not sufficient to eradicate this algae. While my test showed solid improvements, the test shared the same water and light as the source tank, which showed dramatic improvements in the same time frame. So while I do believe the test environment showed more improvement than the tank, I cannot be sure it was the Excel. All I know for sure is that 10X concentrations will not eradicate it.


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## Happy Camper (Sep 13, 2005)

Steve, you can call me Cameron, all my friends do 
I'm not that cheesy movie director you are thinking of 

IMHO, less is more! I can grow stem plants (not all mind you - like Stellata) on 1.5 wpg no problem. Knock your light down a bit, give it a midday blast for a while and stop tinkering with it, remove algae at water change time. If you have to change water 3 times a week for the next 2 weeks then do it. I suppose it just depends on how much you want to save the tank. Here in South Africa aquatic plants are quite pricey so I had to go the 'save the plants' route. Admittedly its still there (the algae) but its getting better.

As long as you have the co2 (mine is about 20ppm), macros and micros added, less light - it should slowly stabilise. Although I wonder if I will ever be able to completely get rid of it. My approach to the tank these days is 'take it slow' and by that I mean less light. All the light we put on our tanks insists that we keep up with the routine, one slip and its algae hell (especially for DIY co2 user like myself). Less light aswell as less nutrients is working well for me these days. Call me a lazy sod 

Warm regards
Cameron James


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Cameron - I appreciate your helpful advice, but I don't think I can use it from what I'm reading here. That is, other than the "don't stir it up" advice which could be great!

It sounds to like you are advocating low light as an ongoing practice. Thanks. I'm not going there. I'm going to have a good bit of light in this tank. Period.

What I'm looking to do in the short term is rid myself of this algae. Now if you could prove that 1 WPG will kill it off, then that is great news! But that appears to not be the case. In fact, clearly it is still growing in your tank.

Can you see it? At all? Then it is more than I'm willing to accept. I'm looking for a way to KILL this stuff. So if you know how to do that, and have done it, please let me know.

Thanks.


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## Hooligan (May 4, 2004)

Last week at this time, my somewhat newly setup 24 gallon AquaPod looked at least as bad as your photo at the beginning of this thread. All the plants and driftwood had _*lots *_of thread algae. The water was also a little cloudy (not green) and there was a little film on the surface. It had been that way for around 2 weeks while I continued as usual hoping it would simply go away. Today, it is nearly gone.

Note that I am not using CO2 in this tank (yet) but was dosing Excel at the recommended rate.

I've not changed my lighting schedule at all through this. First 36W PC is on 12.5 hours a day, Second 36W PC is on 10 hours. Here's what I did (and it's not much):

Last week Wednesday I did my normal weekly 8 gallon water change and decided to stop ALL dosing. (I had been adding CSM+B, KNO3, KH2PO4, and Excel.) I did keep feeding the fish as usual. I should mention that for the water changes, I start with RO/DI and mix water containing 20 ppm Ca, 15 ppm K, 5 ppm Mg, and 50 ppm KH.

Friday afternoon I dosed 40 ml Excel and added about 20-25 ghost shrimp and 1 Pomacea Bridgesii. (There is a small number of misc hitch-hiker snails in the tank - I never see more than 4 or 5 at once if I spend some time looking.)

Early Saturday morning I dosed another 8 ml Excel. At 9 AM I noticed significant signs of stress in some of my fish (particularly the Corys) so I did a 10 gallon water change as soon as I could make up the water (which was about 2 PM).

By Monday morning, there was a very significant decrease in the amount of algae, but the water still looked cloudy and the surface film remained. Monday evening I hooked up my diatom filter to the tank.

Yesterday (Tuesday) morning the water was clear but the film remained, so I stopped at Pet Supplies Plus on my way home from work and bought 4 black mollies which I added to the tank. I also removed the diatom yesterday evening.

This morning the water was still clear, the surface film was gone, and I noticed at least 6 baby mollies hiding in the plants.

None of the fish died. The snail is doing fine. I'm not sure how many of the shrimp remain (at least 10 or so).

HTH,
Mark


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey Mark! Best wishes for great success if eradicating this stuff. And thanks for taking the time to post his excellent detail of what you have done.

But from what I'm reading, you still have it. You starved it and put in algae eaters. My own experience has demonstrated that it will cut it back. And you gave it a good pounding with Excel, and as I've posted here it appears that that might help too. (Can't be sure).

But you still have it. Please let us know when it is gone.

Why am I so picky? Because I'm not reading about what it looked like after you start dosing again and stop punishing it with Excel. I'm glad you've seen improvements, but so far I don't think you can say you've done anything more than beat is back in the short term.

Please do post again if you kill it, and it stays gone, and you know what you did to do it. That would be news.

Thanks.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

scolley said:


> *hooha *- When I do run the UV, I only run it at nite. Right now I'm running it just because I have new fish and shrimp, and my algae is abating... And I don't think anyone is going to stand up and say my thread algae is improving because I turned it on.
> 
> During this long fight the UV has been off for many weeks at a time, and alternately on (evenings only) for weeks at a time. I don't think it matters a bit. But out of general principal, now that the new fish are settling in, I'll be shutting it off soon.
> 
> If the tank does not "self-correct" soon I'll be moving to EI and our local Sticky recommended levels. That will include substantial quantities of micros, with iron in that, so I may be testing your hypothesis soon. Thanks.



Scolley I am sure you know this but in case you don't, a UV will destroy Excel. Hopefully you weren't using it in conjunction with Excel.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

banderbe said:


> Scolley I am sure you know this but in case you don't, a UV will destroy Excel. Hopefully you weren't using it in conjunction with Excel.


Point well made. Thanks, and yes, I turned it off during the Excel dosing - even documented it in my thread. Even have a clear record of it in my Aquarix database of aquarium events - when I turned it off, when I dosed, and when I turned it back on.

Very important point. Thanks.


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## Hooligan (May 4, 2004)

Well, I guess we've got a test going then.

When I got home from work today, all (and I mean ALL) the algae was gone. Perhaps the yesterday-added mollies finished it off, or perhaps it was the remaining shrimp, or it starved. Whatever. I don't care - it looks GOOD!

I did my normal water changes tonight (8 gallons in that tank) and have reestablished my normal baseline levels of NO3 and PO4 (12 ppm and 1 ppm). Tomorrow morning I will put in starter doses of CSM+B and Excel and resume my normal dosing.

Time, and probably not too much of it, will tell.

Mark


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## Evergreen (May 1, 2006)

"Why am I so picky? Because I'm not reading about what it looked like after you start dosing again and stop punishing it with Excel. I'm glad you've seen improvements, but so far I don't think you can say you've done anything more than beat is back in the short term".


I think Mark has it figured out. He has realized that its a competition, and is giving his plants the opportunity to win. You Scolly seem to be looking for one magic pill, Something you can point to and control.


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## Happy Camper (Sep 13, 2005)

Steve

Evergreen is correct, there is not a 'one way method' of getting rid of this stuff. I tried to give you what I did to erradicate most of the stuff, this at least is a start and its much further from where you are now, so why not try it? You can always gradually up your lighting over a few weeks once the algae is under control to your former lighting levels. 

Sheesh, try to help someone and they throw it back in your face!
I really do hope you win the battle with your algae. Good luck.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Happy Camper said:


> Steve
> 
> Evergreen is correct, there is not a 'one way method' of getting rid of this stuff. I tried to give you what I did to eradicate most of the stuff, this at least is a start and its much further from where you are now, so why not try it? You can always gradually up your lighting over a few weeks once the algae is under control to your former lighting levels.
> 
> ...


No. You misunderstand Cameron. And I REALLY DO APPRECIATE you trying to help. Thank you.

But I am looking for someone that HAS ELIMINATED THIS and KNOWS HOW. I could not have made that point more clear at the beginning of this thread.

What you demonstrated in your prior posts was a successful reduction - not elimination. Your most recent post indicates some knowledge of how to bring the "algae under control" and bring the tank back to its prior state - "gradually up your lighting over a few weeks once the algae is under control to your former lighting levels" once the "algae under control". That's a critical piece of information that you've only posted now. Until that post, I had no way to know I was not forever stuck on low light and low fert.

But still, I find myself in the position to ask. Have you done this? In your first post you made no mention of having brought your tank successfully back to its original dosing (or light) levels. So from the information you've provided, it sounds like your assertion that you can slowly bring things back now is conjecture. Not sure knowledge gained through experience. Or maybe you have done this entire process before and did not mention that?

I appreciate everyone's good intentions. But I am in pursuit of cold, hard fact - if it exists.


*Hooligan *- Congratulations on your success so far! You pretty much pounded your tank with Excel, and it has made a very visible difference. That is the same outcome I had with my small test setup. But under very close inspection, I could see the algae still was growing. Have you had a close inspection of your plants.

Or possibly a really heavy pounding of Excel can take this low enough that it can be kept under control by algae eaters? I would still strongly prefer a solution that did not require a permanent contingent of thread algae eaters in the tank. But that is certainly an improvement.

We'll have to see what happens over time.


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## Happy Camper (Sep 13, 2005)

scolley said:


> No. You misunderstand Cameron. And I REALLY DO APPRECIATE you trying to help. Thank you.


Scolley, no worries mate.



scolley said:


> What you demonstrated in your prior posts was a successful reduction - not elimination. Your most recent post indicates some knowledge of how to bring the "algae under control" and bring the tank back to its prior state - "gradually up your lighting over a few weeks once the algae is under control to your former lighting levels" once the "algae under control". That's a critical piece of information that you've only posted now. Until that post, I had no way to know I was not forever stuck on low light and low fert.


Consider this: You cannot just erradicate it in one swoop, this is the impossible mission, you *have* to do it in stages. Give your tank a break and see how it goes. My apologies if my post was not clear but i can assure you I am speaking from experience. I 'let my tank go' (life issues) about 2 months ago, no co2, no dosing etc. It had BBA, thread algae, whisps of BGA, and a nice green protein layer at the water surface. Lights were still on but heavily blocked out by the protein layer. It was ugly. I did a major clean and prune, deep gravel vacuum and a massive water change (90%). Kept the co2, lowered the light and temperature and its much better now. The only thread algae left is at the tops of my Bacopa (nearest the light). One more prune and large water change should at least keep it at bay. Do you think its honestly possible to completely erradicate hair algae 100% once you have had an outbreak? Perhaps, but I doubt it will ever be completely gone, as soon as there is potential for it to come back, it will.

Anyway, my apologies if this is not what you wanted to hear but that is 'my story'. And good luck, I hope you beat the bugger


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Happy Camper said:


> Do you think its honestly possible to completely erradicate hair algae 100% once you have had an outbreak? Perhaps, but I doubt it will ever be completely gone, as soon as there is potential for it to come back, it will.


Thanks Cameron. All clear.

And in response to above, I do not think ANY algae can be gotten rid of once it is in your tank. It will always be ready to spring forward if given the reason.

What I AM looking to do is to beat it back so far that it does not impact the growth of my plants, and that I cannot see it... and I look real close.

So in conclusion, I would summarize what you've said as... _I've done it by reducing all the growth drivers (ferts including CO2, temperature, lights), then easing them back up again once the algae is significantly reduced. And it could take multiple swings at this to get to the point of having no visible thread algae._

Please let me know if that is not an accurate summation. And if it is accurate, that is exactly what I'm looking for. (A statement of - I had it bad, I beat it, and I know how it did it)

Thanks.


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## starccc (Mar 31, 2006)

It really requires a lot of patient to read through whole thing. I think I got rid of hair algae last year. But I am not sure if my method is useful for your guys. It is long story. I started a 46 gal planted tank last year. Since I used tap water, the phosphate was about 2 to 3 ppm at beginning. I tried to use phosguard to get rid of phosphate. However, phosphate never went down 1ppm. And hair algae was growing as same speed as my plants. After adding phosguard, the plant growth significantly slowed down and some plants even died. (Hate phosguard!) The next step I did was adding KNO3. I overdosed KNO3 quite bit. The Nitrate is 40 to 50ppm after that. There was no CO2 in the tank... The next couple days, I got a green soup...The green soup last about 2 to 3 weeks I didn't remember clearly until I got UV filter. It cleared water and I found my plants did pretty good in the green water... Since then, my hair algae was gone.. and my tank is almost algae free except some green dot algae... 

Now I setup a 100 gal tank.. I found the sign of hair algae. Still I think the reason is high phosphate ppm(5ppm this time)... I am not sure if my method still works... I added some kent NO3+ in it... I think I also need dose some K+.. Have not found K2SO4 locally... Will try to see the result...


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

scolley, I have been reading the two threads you have got going here on how/why thread algae appeared/resolved. 

I have for almost a year now been battling thread/hair algae which occasionally gets real bad, then subsides a bit but never goes away completely which is primarily present on a few moss pathces. A while ago I remeber bharada suggested to try increasing the K+ you are adding to to the tank, close to 60ppm.

Well, I am in the middle of the test for you. In one weeks time, I have dosed the tank to 60ppm K+ via K2SO4 3times. All other aspects of my dosing/light/waterchange/co2 schedule has remained constant. Hair algae is on the decline. Or, maybe I should say the growth of the plants around the hair algae has increased so much that it _appears_ the algae is going away.

I have for the longest time pretty much avoided using k2SO4, as it was never necessary in any of my other tanks (things grow well with little or no algae present). However, in the short time I have been dosing the k+ via K2SO4, things look much better. Hope this isn't too late to help, maybe worth giving a try. Also, maybe it could be the extra SO4- present in the water lending a helping hand.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*starccc *- based on my own observations, your solution was reducing your phoshates. That's is what stopped the algae in its tracks for me. I assume that continuing that path - including the possible death of plants like you found - is the solution to killing that algae. I suspect all that other stuff you went through is just coincidental detail. Thanks for the post.


*aquanut415 *- Thanks for the post. But you might note in my thread I tried what you are doing - taking K up to 60ppm as bharada did. But in my case, I took it further, going to the 90p0pm that bharada ultimately found out his tank was at when the alage dissapeared. So I when 50% beyond where you are.

But it did nothing. I assume, but cannot know, that either bharada had a different algae, or something else was going on. High K alone does not seem to be a solution to this algae. Reducing or eliminating Phosphates does appear to be a potential solution. If this works for you though, please post it. It will be good to get a 2nd person that can confirm that as a solution for some cases, if it works. Good luck.


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## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

2 shay? I see.. I see... damn algae.

So, when you got K+ to 90ppm you saw no observable changes? Were you dosing it everyday? 3x a week? etc....Sorry to bug you about this, as I have seen the patience and time you have already put into this thread(s).

I only respond cause in the 4 years I have been doing pressurized co2, thread algae has been the largest nuisance I have encountered in my tanks, and in one case, the increased K2SO4 seems to be helping somthing. 

Maybe the question really should be, once algae is established, is there really anyway to actually kill it without the use of algaecide? 

Or, is the goal to simply have the plants outcompete the algae, and continually remove it by hand until it is at an acceptable aesthetic level?

again, sorry for answering your Q with a Q.

but please keep us posted on your findings, and good luck!


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I had thread algae. Fun stuff. I don't now. How did I get rid of it? Water changes. That and no trace or iron until it was gone. That was in my tank. In my daughter's tank, just water changes.

See, I brought it on. I'd bought 4 yo-yos and just tossed them in the main tank. They were the only fish there so it wasn't like they were going to give anyone anything. 3 weeks later, I saw...a white spot. Uh oh... About the same time, my daughter got a couple of angels and well, she tossed them in her nice new tank. One died, then I noticed lots of spots on the other. Uh oh number 2. I consulted with various pipples at fishinthe.net and decided on a treatment regimin using of all things, some Instant Ocean I happened to have around here. My tank only got about a week of having salt added daily (I started out at like 1/4 the desired dose. Yeah; I know you aren't supposed to do this with planted tanks but the plants didn't). Her angel took a bit longer to cure of the dreaded white spot.

Then the hair appeared. Like green spiderwebs all over the place. (her tank looked like someone attempted to decorate it as a haunted house, she had so much) I had no idea what this stuff was - I had to look it up on the web.

I think it took a few weeks of dosing nothing more than NPK coupled with waterchanges to get rid of all those excessive quantities of various traces I'd put in with the marine mix. But I haven't seen it since, and it's been nearly a year and a half.

My gut instinct is that it's not any 1 element but rather a combination of several.

I might also add that it was followed by BGA which, once again, my daughter's tank had a severe case of (mine had it in spots but nothing to make me flip out) That disappeared in my main tank last summer when I went through the "I don't care" period following a q/t disaster. I'm not sure when daughter finally beat hers but she did yank all the plants out.


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## natx (Jun 6, 2006)

Excuse the rather noob-ish question, but I've seen a lot of threads dealing with getting rid of algae, and the extraordinary lengths people will go to that end.. Is the objection to the alagae purely aesthetic, or does the growth on plant surfaces somehow hinder the plants ability to absorb light/nutrients?

At first I assumed they were competing with the plants for CO2, nutrients, etc, but it seems a lot of people treat algae problems by *increasing* the levels of those elements, so that can't be the case.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

natx said:


> Is the objection to the alagae purely aesthetic, or does the growth on plant surfaces somehow hinder the plants ability to absorb light/nutrients?


In the case of my particular thread algae it is absolutely the former, and appears to be the latter also.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

natx said:


> Is the objection to the alagae purely aesthetic, or does the growth on plant surfaces somehow hinder the plants ability to absorb light/nutrients?


In my experience, the health of algae and plants are not independent. When one thrives, the other suffers. So, if excessive algae is present, your plants are not at their best. Flipside: When plants are healthy, algae doesn't grow well. Most focus on growing plants. Wasserpest might be the exception :hihi:


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## Werdna (Nov 3, 2006)

*Rainbowfish*

A friend from the local fish club told me that rainbow fish will eat hair algae.

Anyone have experience with this?

Andrew


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

What's been working for me is backing off on the light, I've shortened my lighting schedule to 5 or 6 hours per day (4*32w T8 no reflect. over a 125 gal). Also, I recently experimented with TRIPLING the dosing levels I was at, I was aiming for Tom Barr's target levels on his site but I couldn't get the algae figured out. 

CO2 wise I'm pushing my pH down from about 8.4 to 7.1 so the levels are very high there. All of this being said, I'm not totally beating it, rather I've held it at bay for a while. My suspsicion is that the intense fertilization built up a residual level of nutrients in the plants which has since reduced any inbalances caused by plant consumption of nutrients. If the previous discussion are correct it my be K.

I will also add that the area where it grows is where light intensity is at its highest level within the tank. IE, on the top of the driftwood... 

The other thing I should mention is that I'd been monkeying with my lighting timer and goofed up, that's what started this whole thing. One of the weekend programs was running very long into the night, the tank was receiving 18 to 20 hours per day of light.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

The KH/PH chart for measuring CO2 is flawed. There are all kinds of things in your water that will make this chart inaccurate. The best way to test your CO2 with with a drop checker with a KH standard. Ideally this means buying the KH standard from someone who makes it so it is exactly 4KH. You could try to make your own (if you have a digital scale and can calculate the amount you need ....and not relying on your testkit to tell you when you have enough). 

Another way to see if you really have as much CO2 as you think you do is when you will be home for a long time bump up your CO2 till your fish start gasping and then turn it down slightly. Keep it as high as you can without your fish gasping and see if you notice a different in the plants or algae. I have beaten algae by getting a dropchecker and making sure my CO2 was at least 30ppm, dosing IE (as craig said), and removing the most infected leaves.

H2O2 also works wonders on hairalgae and I have spot treated up to 1ml per gallon with amanos, cherry shrimp, and even crystal shrimp and had no losses. Make sure you turn off your filter if you are going to spot treat or just dump some in the tank. You can also make a solution of H2O2 and dump your plants in it for 5-10mins or so. You will start seeing a bunch of bubbles coming off the hair algae after a min or two in the solution.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've routinely beaten algae without a single herbivore.
Takes more effort and on going work to get things back to normal than many seem to think.

Treat the causes, not the symptoms, that's the key.
But you still need to work a lot to get it back to where it was, manual removal in highly under rated, namely because folks do not also address the causes, merely and the symptoms and then all that labor is wasted when te tank is reinfested.

I've been telling folks this for at least a decade.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> manual removal in highly under rated, namely because folks do not also address the causes


And THAT is how you get rid of it. Once it starts, you need to tip the scales in the plants' favor. And chances are, it started at a time when your plants weren't doing so well (new setup, period of neglect, etc). The hair algae kicks in, and then when you address your plants needs, it continues to do just fine along with the plants. Removing it at this time (once you set things back on track re: nutrients, light, CO2, etc) is like putting your plants on training wheels. Once the plants start to come around, you find that the thread algae will require less and less removal efforts. 

I have beaten thread algae to death on several occasions, including this past month on my new ADA tank. It is an algae I never get nervous about (unlike cladophora).

Here's a case from 2005:

March









June


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## defdac (Dec 28, 2003)

I used four of this little suckers i a 4 litres IKEA lowtech. They cleaned it in just a couple of days:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1717.html
this is the vase after the treatment:
http://www.defblog.se/picture/1716.html
(sorry I don't have pictures before, so it doesn't say much..)


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Treat the causes, not the symptoms, that's the key...
> I've been telling folks this for at least a decade.


Thanks Tom. I'm sure you are correct. And I'm thinking that this line of thought has an implicit extra piece of advice - _if you develop a bad case of thread algae, accept that as evidence that your plants are not doing well_

And your advice implies another bit of wisdom IMO - 
_Even if you can visibly eliminate the thread algae, if your plants are still not doing well (and you have no thread algae eaters) it's going to return._

In my own thread algae nightmare - after chasing some wild-geese around the normal suspects - light, CO2, macro's, micros, I came to realize that everything should have been OK for my plants. But the algae persisted. What I didn't realize was that a silver coaster (mistakenly left in my soil from initial setup) was corroding (reacting with the water/soil) and supplying a nice jolt of silver poisoning to my plants. 

So if I had known that thriving thread algae, that stubbornly and aggressively returns after very thorough cleaning, meant that something was wrong with my plants - I might have turned my suspicions to my soil sooner, and wasted a lot less time. I just hadn't found the culprit yet.




unirdna said:


> ...Once the plants start to come around, you find that the thread algae will require less and less removal efforts.
> 
> I have beaten thread algae to death on several occasions, including this past month on my new ADA tank.


Ted - Congratulations! I should go back and read this thread again, and I may be missing good posts somewhere. But this appears to be the first visible EVIDENCE (before and after shots, from a highly trustworthy source) that I've seen demonstrating that you can beat established thread algae without algae eaters.

Thanks for this post! This is the evidence I was looking for.

I look forward to taking a look at your thread, where I'm hoping you will be sharing all the gory details.



defdac said:


> I used four of this little suckers i a 4 litres IKEA lowtech. They cleaned it in just a couple of days


This thread was really about beating it without cleaners... but thanks for the posts. It's nice to know what cleaners work. Can you identify what type of snails those are?

Sorry - I'm not too up on snails. Thanks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, you might think about beating algae or any pest like this:

Use many little hammers to beat it back rather than one big one(say like adding copper sulfate).

Treating the causes(if known, and they should be looked at in depth and with the most effort here) is the first order of business.

Adding herbivores is a wise thing as well, better them than you!
Adding them adds more resilienacy to the ecosystem state, so the tank can handle more stress and more neglect than without them.

Still, we should never rely solely on herbivores, as algae is a symptom of poor/suboptimal plant growth. This does not imply that speed growth is required, rather than stable conditions, perhaps a non CO2 or lower light set up etc, can work well.

Plant demands must be met with any method you chose.
That is the primary goal in a planted tank: nice growing plants, at what rate you want them to grow can easily be controlled via light with CO2 or going non CO2 for even less growth rates.

Ted, that's a nice algae infested tank!
It's been many years since I've seen such a nice example of Rhizoclonium.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## natx (Jun 6, 2006)

I spent six months trying to rid my tank of hair algae. I had to remove an established foreground because it was thick in that, 90% of my moss and the wood it had nicely attached itself to, and do major trimmings of the delicate stem plants it was living in.

Then I finally broke down and bought 10 Amano shrimp. Within two weeks there wasn't a spot of hair algae anywhere in the tank.


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## crazy loaches (Sep 29, 2006)

natx said:


> Then I finally broke down and bought 10 Amano shrimp. Within two weeks there wasn't a spot of hair algae anywhere in the tank.


But do they also work for thread? of course my problem with them is clown loaches...


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## Bastian (May 2, 2009)

Any conlcusion on this topic =P?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

It's a few years later, but I've personally come to some firm conclusions on this topic...

1) What I was dealing with was silica based. My high silica levels in my tank made it EXTREMELY hard to fight. So if you have thread algae like the kind I photo-documented, your first step needs to be reducing silicates in your water.
2) Regardless of the hoopla you will hear to the contrary here, you GOTTA reduce your phosphates. As in low, low, LOW.
3) When it's really bad, no animal can beat it for you.
4) Manual removal only spreads it. And it's a fools game anyway. Reduce the silicates. Reduce the phosphates. And then watch it all go "bye, bye".​
If anyone tells you otherwise... look for the proof. With pictures. 'Cuz what I've just posted is FACT. Lemme know if you need the pics to prove it.

Hope that helps.:smile:


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## Bastian (May 2, 2009)

I believe you  I don't have a severe case of thread/hair algea, but it's still annoying haha!
So at the moment I'm raising my potassium levels so more phosphates will be absorbed.
I refreshed my water with 100% RO for quite a long time and got like 3 - 4 wpg without extra potassium dosing so I think I started there. Most of the plants had fallen back a bit in growth and seems to be less lush as before. Hopefully this will do the trick


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## Indignation (Mar 9, 2008)

scolley said:


> It's a few years later, but I've personally come to some firm conclusions on this topic...
> 
> 1) What I was dealing with was silica based. My high silica levels in my tank made it EXTREMELY hard to fight. So if you have thread algae like the kind I photo-documented, your first step needs to be reducing silicates in your water.
> 2) Regardless of the hoopla you will hear to the contrary here, you GOTTA reduce your phosphates. As in low, low, LOW.
> ...


Hmm... I really should know better, but i'll bite anyways. 
First, how are you defining FACT? Is that scientific fact, with objective and verifiable results? 
Or is that empirical fact, based on subjective personal experience? As in, pictures of your own tank along with what you tried?

Second, I have beaten thread algae soundly three times now, and can also prove it if needed. All without reducing phosphates. Rather, while ADDING phosphates at the recommended EI rate.
Granted, I tried cutting phosphates just to see if it would help at one point, but it seemed to have slowed the plants and sped up the algae. 
The key for me was patience, daily water changes, religious dosing (CO2, macro & micro), light management in one case, & fastidious manual removal, which I agree seemed to make it worse at first. It did get better with persistence. mylar pipe cleaners and a .30-06 nylon barrel brush helped a ton, along with shutting off filters and power heads to keep from spreading fragments. I also ran a small suction hose next to where i was picking up the thread algae, to grab floating fragments. 
Some people swear by black-outs, and it would have been my next step if I didn't have success with my other methods.

This however is not fact, but merely a personal experience. I lack the tools to effectively measure all of the variables that were occurring during my removal, and with no control, I have no idea what actually got rid of the algae. But it does show that varied methods can work. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, if you like.

That being said, I am having a case of thread algae in a 2.5 gallon that I can't seem to beat, as it is primarily a moss tank that I can't seem to find all of the spiro in, and is too small to try some of the methods i stated above. I'll give the no phosphates thing another whirl, see if that helps.

None of this means that either of us is wrong in our approach, merely there is more than one way to accomplish a goal. Personally, I think giving advice to not try something simply because it didn't work for you to be a little brash.

*My long-winded 2 cents.* :hihi:


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## crossbow (Nov 29, 2009)

Somethings I pulled away from this thread.

1) Algae is always waiting in the background, waiting for a balance to shift.
2) When the balance shifts in any direction other then optimal, pop goes the algae.
3) When you get the balance back into sync, the algae will generally not disappear on it's own. It needs to be removed.
4) Algae can be removed mechanically, chemically/uv, or with algae eaters (nerties/oto's), once the system is back in optimal balance.

Without step 4, it will take ALOT longer to be rid of algae.


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