# 70 Gal Manzigumi take 2



## josolanes (Feb 28, 2012)

I REALLY like how the hardscape looks, it definitely has a lot of character. Well done, I can't wait to see how this looks with the hairgrass and as it grows out


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

For a second I thought that wood was rock. I can't wait to see it planted.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

radioman said:


> For a second I thought that wood was rock. I can't wait to see it planted.


That's part of the idea, I have a ton of nice burl rock like wood.
Folks do not buy it for some reason.

So I show them what they are missing.


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## vincenz (Jan 29, 2012)

That is an aggressive slope :thumbsup:

I have to comment on the silicone job on that tank-- it's beautiful. Seams? What seams? The tank is starphire, right?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The slope is well shored up, you cannot see it though, that's the trick.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

It should be illegal for Tom Barr to post a comment on his own tank thread without 20-30 additional pictures. 

Especially on a tank this great.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

somewhatshocked said:


> It should be illegal for Tom Barr to post a comment on his own tank thread without 20-30 additional pictures.
> 
> Especially on a tank this great.


Got home tonight and the tank is shaping up, I'll do a water change tomorrow, belem hair grass is on the way.

I think I'll remove some more soil, once the grass fills in, the height will be a bit more and the effect will be nicer.

What is nice about the scape is the different angles and holes you see in and under the wood, the fish and shrimp will really love this tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

vincenz said:


> That is an aggressive slope :thumbsup:
> 
> I have to comment on the silicone job on that tank-- it's beautiful. Seams? What seams? The tank is starphire, right?


Yes, on the starfire glass. All my tanks are.
It's a LeeMar tank, has ABS plastic glued to the bottom alos, acts like a garden mat, not sure why ADA has not already done this on all their tanks, they say to add them etc, seems simple, just add one to the tank itself that last forever.

This will prevent breakage and scratches also.

Simple no brainer design add on.


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## nvladik (Jan 12, 2012)

Tom this looks awesome!!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

nvladik said:


> Tom this looks awesome!!!


Weird thing is, few folks are even interested in the burls


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## nvladik (Jan 12, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> Weird thing is, few folks are even interested in the burls


I don't think it's lack of interest, but lack if vision. I'd bet, you finish this scape, plant it, and more people will be interested. Plus at the price of good stone, this is a no brainer IMHO.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

nvladik said:


> I don't think it's lack of interest, but lack if vision. I'd bet, you finish this scape, plant it, and more people will be interested. Plus at the price of good stone, this is a no brainer IMHO.


Perhaps.

I'll do a 100% water change and then take a new pic with water.


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## manualfocus (Jun 15, 2011)

You're definitely starting to sway me towards burl wood. This scape looks amazing already. Please fill it up soon!


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

I like burl wood... non-conventional iwagumi + potential to keep happy plecos = win in my books. Or maybe I'm taking it too far? :hihi: Definitely want to try it out myself sometime.
I'm excited to see how you plant this tank Tom. Should turn out awesome!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This is what was there before last year:











So growing belem is not an issue. Nor Starougyne, nor Erio's, nor Buce's, nor well......most any plant.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Subscribed to yet another of your tank journals.


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## carpalstunna (Mar 22, 2012)

subscribed! Cant wait to see more!!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tank seems to be cycling well, all the bacteria is still in place from the prior set up.
There a few smaller frags of wood I will add to shore up some spots, there's more wood under the soil that what you see.


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## kwheeler91 (May 26, 2009)

I like the middle pic view the best. gonna look sweet filled in.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I liked the woodigumi name better.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

antbug said:


> I liked the woodigumi name better.


Not all wood has such character however.


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

looks like the island from superman returns
it's time to plant stuff there


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Yes, on the starfire glass. All my tanks are.
> It's a LeeMar tank, has ABS plastic glued to the bottom alos, acts like a garden mat, not sure why ADA has not already done this on all their tanks, they say to add them etc, seems simple, just add one to the tank itself that last forever.
> 
> This will prevent breakage and scratches also.
> ...


 
HMM if one were to inquire as to where u would get a LeeMar tank. where would you direct them?
i've been looking at glasscages.com but i agree with previous posts. hat does look like a well made tank


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> HMM if one were to inquire as to where u would get a LeeMar tank. where would you direct them?
> i've been looking at glasscages.com but i agree with previous posts. hat does look like a well made tank


You can look locally I suppose, ask at the TN aquarium, they might know someone. Hotlanta might have someone.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Not all wood has such character however.


True, but woodigumi rolls off the tongue better. I'll stop by around 11:30am today.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

hmm i never would have thought to ask the tnaquarium..... locally the selection is comprised of all rimmed tanks, marineland, aqeuon, or deep blue proffessional


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Just call and see, never hurts to ask, it's free to do that.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

sometimes it really sux to have someone else tell you common sense stuff


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Got the Grass, time to plant


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

100% belem for this tank?


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## Lurch98 (Oct 7, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> HMM if one were to inquire as to where u would get a LeeMar tank. where would you direct them?
> i've been looking at glasscages.com but i agree with previous posts. hat does look like a well made tank


When I traded emails with LeeMar last year looking for a quote, the furthest East dealer they had at the time was Aqua Touch in Arizona 602-765-9058.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcgd said:


> 100% belem for this tank?


Thus far, that's the plan. I might add some mini pellia or something, but moss/Liverworts will infest hair grass something awful, then you'll NEVER get rid of it.

I have Petite Anubias and Buce's, there are a few other plants that would do well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

With hair grass, this grass came out of a small mini L ADA tank local club member's, and ended up filling out fairly well this tank's scape, I'd prefer about 3x this density though, but good clean healthy grass is well worth it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Some folks suggested a E, hydropiper farm, but I do not have enough yet.....to change this tank and this tank is less an experimental plant species tank as it is a long term set and leave it be tank. 

Maybe later I'll do a nice E hydropiper planting.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wood is settling in well, grass has just started to grow in some spots.


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

Looking good. I can't wait to see it fill in.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Most foreground type plants take 2-3 weeks to really get their root systems going, then it's just a matter time. There's no algae yet, so that's good.

I'll need to use the Stainless steel screen for the overflow, the Amano's always end up in the prefilter.


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## Chafire (Jan 6, 2010)

It's looking good Tom. I look forward to seing it grown in. Do you still plan on adding Buce or Moss/Pellia? Have you grown Nymphaea micrantha?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Chafire said:


> It's looking good Tom. I look forward to seing it grown in. Do you still plan on adding Buce or Moss/Pellia? Have you grown Nymphaea micrantha?


Not sure yet.............waiting for the grass to grow in.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

Awesome tank. Would you mind a quick equipment list? Tank dimensions?

How does leemar stack up to Ada in person?


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

i think the great thing about this scape are the grass between the hardscape
looks so natural from three sides

shouldn't add anything that will ruin the hardscape look


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## aquatic serenity (May 24, 2011)

You really like those HOB overflow boxes...I see them in some of your setups...Ever have one fail on you or even worry about it ???


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## raven_wilde (Jul 12, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Weird thing is, few folks are even interested in the burls


I'll probably be contacting you for some in the next 3-4 months... I'm getting tired of how the rocks in my 'Ebiwagumi' jack up the water hardness.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

pandacory said:


> Awesome tank. Would you mind a quick equipment list? Tank dimensions?
> 
> How does leemar stack up to Ada in person?


Equipment, CPR wet/dry filter, CO2 fed into return pump, ATI light, ADA like stand but better..............Leemar is much better made than the ADA 120 cm tank. Has PVC bottom added to glass that acts like a mat, this is a no brainer for rimless tanks. Seam work and edge is good, the thickness of the glass is thicker. 

Cost wise, for the samller tanks, like the 120pm and the 90 and certainly the smaller tanks, ADA tanks are good deal, but you get what you pay for, this tank is like 900-1000$. 

36x24x18


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Is it even possible to buy a Leemar except through a local dealer in the SW region?


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

pandacory said:


> How does leemar stack up to Ada in person?


I have 2 ADA tanks (120p and Mini L) and I've seen/touched/moved Toms' tanks. Leemar is a solid choice for a rimless tank. As Tom stated the glass is thicker, which is never a bad thing. The seams and edge work are on point and it comes with a exact fit "garden mat". For me ADA was the same if not a little cheaper, but for a bigger or custom size tank, Leemar would be my 1st choice.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Lee-Mar Market Area
Anyone get these online?


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Do what Tom did and take a drive so SoCal. You can always stop in Sacramento on your way back and hand pick some wood from Tom :hihi:


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Or http://reefsavvy.com/ might ship custom rimless for a price.

LeeMar has a nice compact multi million population market area and doesn't really need to go national with all the distribution headaches.

Southern Oregon is considered too rural for a lot of niche companies to waste warehousing/transportation budgets on. Heck I've been waiting for over 2 months just to get a quote from my local marineland dealer on a larger tank. Dr F&S only deal with whole kit packages for marineland's large tanks.

If I ever get a pickup truck, I'm in for a day's drive to Portland or the Bay area to get a nice rimless tank.


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## meowschwitz (Sep 6, 2011)

Where can I get those awesome manzanita stumps?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

meowschwitz said:


> Where can I get those awesome manzanita stumps?


My front yard.


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## meowschwitz (Sep 6, 2011)

So you selling them? 


plantbrain said:


> My front yard.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

meowschwitz said:


> So you selling them?


Ahh, naw man, personal consumption only










Folks in the area can stop by and pick through what they want.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tank still lacks algae, I had some hair algae get on the wood the 2nd week, then has not returned after about 5 day cycle.

Glass has not needed any wiping since set up.

Belem hair grass continues the march, but the pics really do not show much difference.

I'll post one is a week or two and likely do a video once the fish are added and healthy/frisky etc. Still, undecided about the fish choice.

Water change is reduced to the standard 6-70% 2x a week.
This will be reduced to once a week after the grass rug fills in fully.


Dosing is:

2x a week after water change:

1/2 tsp of KNO3
1/4tsp KH2PO4
2 tsp of GH booster
15 mls trace

I might add more trace 1 or 2x extra in the week.

Feed the shrimp a few algae sticks.

Not much else.
I reduced the CO2 a bit

Was up in the 90ppm range, now down to 65ppm.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Rummies?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jkan0228 said:


> Rummies?


Naw, trying to stay away from the other 3 South American themed tanks


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Tank still lacks algae, I had some hair algae get on the wood the 2nd week, then has not returned after about 5 day cycle.
> 
> Glass has not needed any wiping since set up.
> 
> ...


I see you are dry dosing correct? How do you calculate your dosing? I just pour dry fertz in with no consistency. Is consistency the key to fertilizing?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

StrungOut said:


> I see you are dry dosing correct? How do you calculate your dosing? I just pour dry fertz in with no consistency. Is consistency the key to fertilizing?


I always dry dose macros, the traces I've always dissolved prior, it's just a habit I have going back almost 20 years, but either dissolving in liquid or dry, does not matter much. Less mess with the dry. Self filling measured jugs help dispense the liquids without mess.

This tank is dosed less due to being newly plants with little biomass, no need to lard it on just yet because demand for ferts is so low right now and the back up is the ADA AS. 

I'd say light and CO2 management is the key, dosing can be varied.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## CmLaracy (Jan 7, 2007)

love the scape, AWESOME idea to use manzanita to create an iwagumi style tank. And I've always been a huge fan of that grass. Two thumbs up


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Lovely and unique design


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## chris.rivera3 (Apr 15, 2008)

Hey Tom! Who manufactured this tank? Glasscages again?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It is a LeeMar, very nice tank, not cheap though, but compared to ADA? A bargain and better made frankly. for smaller tanks ADA are top notch for the $, but tanks in the over 50-60 gal range, you might pay a little more for the tank, but you can sometimes get them locally better made in some locations. Depends on where you live.


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## joejoe123 (Aug 22, 2006)

Can you describe you filter you have or if you have already in another post of yours mabye put a link up. Id like to see it and know how it works.

Joey


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Joejoe

Check out CPR's web site.

They even have videos.


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## joejoe123 (Aug 22, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Joejoe
> 
> Check out CPR's web site.
> 
> They even have videos.


What made you choose a filter like this instead of a canister filter?
Does it make alot of noise or is it quite?
Im asking cause I beleive Im fixing to make a big jump into planted tanks and am looking at equipment and this filter stood out.

Your tanks are beautifull I love all of them !!!

Joey


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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## rballi (Mar 4, 2010)

what kind of mesh bags did you use and where did you get them?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Update, just look at all those Celestial pearl danios. All 40 of them just out swimming. Even with this design, those damn fish hide and it's just a ghost tank.
Well, I'm getting rid of them. 

Grass keeps getting thicker and thicker, still only about 1/2 way, but the general look is already there:

With a flash









Without Flash:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

rballi said:


> what kind of mesh bags did you use and where did you get them?


Plastic screen at the hardware store.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dialed the light down to 30% output for 8 hours, with a 0-30% ramp up and down over 2 hours. Not a lot of light really.


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Update, just look at all those Celestial pearl danios. All 40 of them just out swimming. Even with this design, those damn fish hide and it's just a ghost tank.
> Well, I'm getting rid of them.
> 
> Grass keeps getting thicker and thicker, still only about 1/2 way, but the general look is already there:
> ...


Well that is beyond irritating on the Danios, tank is looking very good.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

2in10 said:


> Well that is beyond irritating on the Danios, tank is looking very good.


I've had them with other fish and with other displays, so they are done.
Same thing.


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> I've had them with other fish and with other displays, so they are done.
> Same thing.


Yup, It's very unfortunate. They are such good looking fish, but they won't show themselves. I got some before and never came out. I would never purchase them again. 

Btw, growth looking good Tom.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Looks great. I love the 3 sided viewing as well. I wish whatever type of belem I have would grow a fraction as quick.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> Looks great. I love the 3 sided viewing as well. I wish whatever type of belem I have would grow a fraction as quick.


CO2 and enough N and P, it's not a picky plant.

I have about 3x LESS liught and it took about 3 months or so for this:










I'm about 6 weeks in really:


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## salmon (Apr 14, 2011)

wow there were 40 cpds in those shots? i see 4 at most in the bottom pic. this is good/bad news as I was hoping to do a school of 40 and they wouldn't do be so skittish.....back to the drawing board :icon_conf

tank is looking great btw Tom. looks great on all sides, also like the shadowing in the wood


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> CO2 and enough N and P, it's not a picky plant.
> 
> I have about 3x LESS liught and it took about 3 months or so for this:


I switched filtration, upped my CO2 and it's doing better. It looks fine, just slow growth. For most of the time, it was non-co2. I really just didn't start with enough plant mass. Thanks for the advice though, I will just do the basics and let it grow.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

salmon said:


> wow there were 40 cpds in those shots? i see 4 at most in the bottom pic. this is good/bad news as I was hoping to do a school of 40 and they wouldn't do be so skittish.....back to the drawing board :icon_conf
> 
> tank is looking great btw Tom. looks great on all sides, also like the shadowing in the wood


They come out but any movement and they hide.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

They wont come around if you feed them something tasty for a while?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcgd said:


> They wont come around if you feed them something tasty for a while?


Nope, they dart out and then hide


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## rballi (Mar 4, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Plastic screen at the hardware store.


What is the plastic screen used for? What section do I find it?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

rballi said:


> What is the plastic screen used for? What section do I find it?


Windows:icon_idea

Home Depot has some larger fence material that can be used, or go to Micheal's or some craft's places, they have plastic netting.


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## raven_wilde (Jul 12, 2006)

salmon said:


> wow there were 40 cpds in those shots? i see 4 at most in the bottom pic. this is good/bad news as I was hoping to do a school of 40 and they wouldn't do be so skittish.....back to the drawing board :icon_conf
> 
> tank is looking great btw Tom. looks great on all sides, also like the shadowing in the wood


CPDs are skittish when they don't have plant cover above them. In my tank there is a healthy cover of lotus leaves and they are out all the time. They will shy a away a bit if I move past the tank too quickly but they usually come right back out hoping for food.

I guess they are just not meant to inhabit an iwagumi.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

raven_wilde said:


> CPDs are skittish when they don't have plant cover above them. In my tank there is a healthy cover of lotus leaves and they are out all the time. They will shy a away a bit if I move past the tank too quickly but they usually come right back out hoping for food.
> 
> I guess they are just not meant to inhabit an iwagumi.


They hover above the grass and weave between the grass mostly and sit still. If I sit and wait, they will come out, but this is hardly a good theme for the tank. They are also good sized and well fed, but that does not help.


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## raven_wilde (Jul 12, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> They hover above the grass and weave between the grass mostly and sit still. If I sit and wait, they will come out, but this is hardly a good theme for the tank. They are also good sized and well fed, but that does not help.


Yeah, they like jungles... looks like you'll need to find some tetras or some other shoaling fish that is okay with open water. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever really seen an iwagumi with CPDs.

That said, the tank looks great, I can't wait until I have the spare cash to manzy-up my iwagumi


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## albirdy (Jul 16, 2008)

what kind of filter/pre-filter is that?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

raven_wilde said:


> Yeah, they like jungles... looks like you'll need to find some tetras or some other shoaling fish that is okay with open water. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't think I've ever really seen an iwagumi with CPDs.
> 
> That said, the tank looks great, I can't wait until I have the spare cash to manzy-up my iwagumi


Really? Here's a tank I had before...see all those CPD's? There's 20 in this tank, I saw them even less than I do now.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

albirdy said:


> what kind of filter/pre-filter is that?


CPR overflow and wet/dry


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

Tom , do you use any safety device like a float switch with your cpr overflow in case it will loose siphon?


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## raven_wilde (Jul 12, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Really? Here's a tank I had before...see all those CPD's? There's 20 in this tank, I saw them even less than I do now.


I don't know then... maybe they just like me better :tongue:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

wintu said:


> Tom , do you use any safety device like a float switch with your cpr overflow in case it will loose siphon?


No, never had an issue. I clean the lines every so often though.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Still another month or two for thicker and denser grass


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## trit0n2003 (Nov 19, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Still another month or two for thicker and denser grass


Looking real nice!


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Tom, what are the PAR levels on the grass?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

audioaficionado said:


> Tom, what are the PAR levels on the grass?


I dropped it down to about 30 for awhile, to a maybe 50 at the hot spots.

I recently bumped it back up a little, now about 40-45 and the hot spot is 60.
Also added another hour the light cycle. So I'm at 9 hours now.

There's also a 30 min delay and 60 min delay on the 2 light channels going from 0% up to 50% full power.

This is about the same time it takes to fully load the water with CO2.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanx. I now have a target to shoot for as I'd like to do a similar planting with Lilaeopsis novae 'mini' for my shrimp tank. I don't want a jungle in there as the shrimp are too hard to see otherwise.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I started off with UG, but then needed to move the tank.

Since I already had UG in the 120 Gal, I optted out, and I did not have enough of the E hydropiper to start the 70 gal.


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Almost time for a hair cut. Looking good Tom.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I like the way you used the wood, with every piece pointed in the same direction like viens of rock but wood, it a great idea. I guess with all the time you have devoted to the aquarium and all the wood you get to play with lets the design come a little easier. But in my view the plants are almost secondary in this tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

150EH said:


> I like the way you used the wood, with every piece pointed in the same direction like viens of rock but wood, it a great idea. I guess with all the time you have devoted to the aquarium and all the wood you get to play with lets the design come a little easier. But in my view the plants are almost secondary in this tank.


Well, sometimes having things all points the same way.....well, that does not work or look right to many who copy other designs. I suppose the reason why it works here is the pieces themselves are different enough to offset that uniformity. The second incarnation focused more on allowing even lighting and access to the plants, less shadowing and another full panel view. Yes, having access to oodles of wood certainly helps your skills.

I can break the rules flagrantly and still have things look good.
And as far as rules go, I only have one: if it looks good, it is good.

I may remove the Belem hair grass at some point and switch to UG or E hydropiper. Both are very manageable and higher value and will look nice in the hardscape.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

antbug said:


> Almost time for a hair cut. Looking good Tom.


All your belem grass there:thumbsup:
Thanks

Hopefully your R sunset is doing well, Juan came and got some a couple of days ago at his lunch. I had some turn black and folded its leave back that I hit with the H2O2, the rest have been fine and are not affected.


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## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

Ughhhhhhhhhh, sooooo greeeennnnnnnnnnnnn....I am soooo jeloussss....


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Caught all but 1/2 of the CPD's. I'll likely go with Brass tetras.

Not quite sure, but those look great and school nicely.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Reflections, dirty glass etc...........you get the idea though.

Sorry, most of the CRS are hiding.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

It's nice, almost all filled in. Another shrimp farm.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcgd said:


> It's nice, almost all filled in. Another shrimp farm.


Yes, the dense foreground plants provide lots of cover and surface area to pick at for the fry.

But it's also low maintenance tank. I still have the light up at 50% but will drop to 30% and drop the CO2 a touch as well once it's nice and thick.

The dinner table side is not as thick as the door side.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

It's nice to actully be able to see the fauna in the tank, it looks nice!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'm impressed by the CRS SSS more than anything, they look nice against these contrast.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Spotted some baby CRS fry.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> Yes, the dense foreground plants provide lots of cover and surface area to pick at for the fry.
> 
> But it's also low maintenance tank. I still have the light up at 50% but will drop to 30% and drop the CO2 a touch as well once it's nice and thick.
> 
> The dinner table side is not as thick as the door side.


I wonder about this strategy; by lowering the CO2 a bit and dropping the lighting intensity (but I presume you're keeping the lighting duration) does this mean that your plant growth rate will be reduced?  I'm presuming that's the rationale behind these changes. I've never tried it, even after all these years, because I didn't think that it would work. It seems to me that might provoke an algae outbreak or something else by destabilizing the tank parameters...have you done this a lot and if so has it always worked without any negative consequences?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Yes, less light/CO2/ferts= less growth, more= more growth.

Common sense really, but there's plenty to support for this on all 3 accounts in research.

I want the grass to grow in fast and then just slowly grow from then on.
the goal is different say, in my 120 Gal tank, or the 180 etc...........
The issue is folks really need to have good control of all 3 parameters to do this effectively.

I can measure the light very well with a PAR meter, I have several methods to measure CO2 and then ferts are rather easy at the end.

I know the limits with light and hairgrass also from past experiences.

eg:











You can see the hair grass trailing off in density towards the rear and it's based on a light gradient from moderate to low, roughly 35-40 micro moles down to 10 in the far corner. So 25~ ought to do well.

There is no shading in the tank above though, so.........just need to get everything nice and dense 1st...........then reduce the light, then the plants getting more light can help the ones that are getting less, they "share resources" as a giant mat of weeds.

More like one single interwoven plant/organism.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This is with the CO2 on and full mist mode.
Look at the return outlet in the 1st pic.
You can see the cloud of CO2.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Ahh, the cloud of co2. That's exactly what my mist looks like. The water looks identical, as far as a picture can show. The thing I like is being able to see co2 distribution. I do prefer clear water, but I suppose even if you are planning on using a reactor, blowing mist is a good way to see co2 distribution in the tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I may fix the issue later. I'm less keen on it in this tank, in the 120, it's not impacting the in person view, this one, it does...........


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> I may fix the issue later. I'm less keen on it in this tank, in the 120, it's not impacting the in person view, this one, it does...........


Speaking of the 120 - I just got my 90P in today and I have to say I had no idea that it was going to weigh a TON! I could barely lift it on the stand, so I imagine that the 120 probably takes a couple of people to move? I originally (and I still do, honestly, lol) wanted a 120 but it was too much money. Thank the gods I live on the first floor! Can you tell me how much weight we're talking empty versus full? Now I *really* understand what kind of support one needs with this size tank. 

And finally Tom, my stand is just a bit out of plum. Do you think I should get some shims just in case? I'm not filling it until I hear back from you because I do *not* want this tank to fail because of that (even slight) imbalance. I'm using a gorilla rack that quotes "Holds 750 lbs. Per Shelf" and mine has a top, middle and bottom. I've sat on its top where the tank currently sits (I'm 6' 2" and 200lbs) and its rock solid. Any thoughts?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

styxx said:


> Speaking of the 120 - I just got my 90P in today and I have to say I had no idea that it was going to weigh a TON! I could barely lift it on the stand, so I imagine that the 120 probably takes a couple of people to move? I originally (and I still do, honestly, lol) wanted a 120 but it was too much money. Thank the gods I live on the first floor! Can you tell me how much weight we're talking empty versus full? Now I *really* understand what kind of support one needs with this size tank.
> 
> And finally Tom, my stand is just a bit out of plum. Do you think I should get some shims just in case? I'm not filling it until I hear back from you because I do *not* want this tank to fail because of that (even slight) imbalance. I'm using a gorilla rack that quotes "Holds 750 lbs. Per Shelf" and mine has a top, middle and bottom. I've sat on its top where the tank currently sits (I'm 6' 2" and 200lbs) and its rock solid. Any thoughts?


Well, I'd use a well made heavy duty stand that will not bend etc. ADA like knock off except better, local made laminate etc, then use those rubber drawer mats under it. My LeMar tanks have an ABS plastic sheet glued to the bottom for this purpose already.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

That is so awesome!


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

So how's it looking these days?!


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Well, I'd use a well made heavy duty stand that will not bend etc. ADA like knock off except better, local made laminate etc, then use those rubber drawer mats under it. My LeMar tanks have an ABS plastic sheet glued to the bottom for this purpose already.


Another awesome tank. Where did you get the stand made?

I am sitting on a quote for a tank from Charlie and the fish tank factory, but am on the fence about his stands since the pictures on his site aren't great and I've never seen them in person. If I can stuff the stand and tank into my budget then it is on.

Oh, and I will be scouring all of your posts, attempting to steal your secrets. roud:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I had "jnaz" make in Corona CA, his brother/dad do cabinets.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I knocked the lighting down to 20% or about 30-40 umol where the belem hair grass grows.

I ran the Watt meter.
I'm pushing about 60 watts of power over a 70 gal tank with excellent spread, color and growth.

No way a LED system can do this.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> I knocked the lighting down to 20% or about 30-40 umol where the belem hair grass grows.
> 
> I ran the Watt meter.
> I'm pushing about 60 watts of power over a 70 gal tank with excellent spread, color and growth.
> ...


But in the long run of replacing bulbs and maintenance(if needed), could it be assumed that they're equivalent to LED's? Being that LED's never really need replacement


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Well, I can put 50umol at the bottom of my 160 with good spread and 60 watts, including drivers, etc. Green plants look great. Growth is awesome, fast, thick. 

Reds are the only place I see LEDs getting beat... For now.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I managed to get a nasty hair algae infestation about 1.5 months ago. 
Light and CO2 tweaking did not resolve it for this tank.

Flow might be an issue as it's fairly high in this tank.

I recently removed the shrimp and tried the algaefix. I'd tested it a few times for getting rid of hair algae on moss and UG etc in a bare bottom tank with a light and sponge filter etc.

Worked after a week or so there.

No harm to the mosses either.

I got rid of the hair algae via good cleaning and CO2 alone in the 120. 
I noticed my timer was off set with the lights. the power outage we had caused a lull and I did not change this tank. The other 2 tanks are on a battery back up for the timers and the lights reset automatically. Got nailed again.

The CO2 was coming on 2 hours later than it should have been.
I'm not around when this happens as I'm at work or away from the home.

I caught it one Sunday.

Fixed it and thought I could address the algae fairly well, but low hours of lighting and CO2 alone did not do the trick very well. Plant biomass is low and grass did not like 3-4 hour light at low light.

So Algaefix kills shrimp pretty well, tested that with some Fire shrimp culls.
2-3rd dose, they start to die.

Not sure about snails. Hopefully it's as effective against them. 
As lon as you can catch the shrimp of high grade you want to keep, and all the amano's etc, you are okay with this method. It will never fix your root issue nor grow your plants well, but it can kill the algae that is there pretty well after a week or so.

It does no harm to the plants.
No harm to fish.

So.....not bad selectivity.

I bumped the light back up to 50% and run 8 hours solid now. Just to see if the light/CO2 combo which typically increases the algae, would help or not. The algae is in remission. 

Algaefix does not appear to kill diatoms and a few other species of algae.
But the tougher species like Spirogyra, Caldophora(tested on moss in a barebottomed tank) and supposedly Oedogonium and GDA/GSA/GW all are susceptible.

I am testing a GDA bloom on another tank right now. 
IME most of these snake oils rarely work, but this one seems to buck the trend. H2O2 did poorly for Green algae, and so has Excel and they needed spot treating etc even when aggressive. These work well for BBA, but not the green algae species.

Clouds the tank some when you add it. But goes away fairly quick and after a few days, the algae should be gone. If you can net out the shrimp for a week or so, this will work well for many folks. 

I'll see how things progress post treatment. Tank still looks nice etc.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Algae after the 3rd day appears to be completely gone/DOA. 
Some detritus left over, but the plants are nice and green and the product worked as described. A rare observation indeed. I think I've reviewed 40 chemicals and only 4 have done anything. And only 2 name brand algae killers and one is not really a killer other than perhaps to BBA.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jkan0228 said:


> But in the long run of replacing bulbs and maintenance(if needed), could it be assumed that they're equivalent to LED's? Being that LED's never really need replacement


I easily get 4-5 years out bulbs.
And I like to try different color temps and brands of bulbs, you can do this with LED's also, but it's a bit more a PITA.

I still use less energy at the end of the day.


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## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

subscribed over here..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Post algae treatment and I moved a piece of wood till the grass grows back in the rear better.

2 weeks after the hair algae has not returned at all.


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## tommypham (Jul 10, 2012)

very nice tank


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Tank has progressed very nicely over time. I'm itching to work the plants more, but part of the point was to have this a low input tank. Pondered using all UG, but the work to replant it all would take about 2-3 hours once every 2 months or so.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




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