# does my sump setup make sense?



## Kareen (Apr 6, 2013)

you should use filter pading and then the foam the air stone gos in the refugium and the heater would also go in the refugium you don't really need the charcoal go on yutub and look up some sumps to see how there set up


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Not sure why you need to compartmentalize a FW sump. It's only done in Reef aquaria because A) Skimmer needs a constant water level (B) to reduce evaporation to return area, hence ensuring the ATO doesn't add too much FW and reduce salinity. In FW baffles are a waste of time and money. 


Don't use filter pads; they're inefficient and need to thrown away. Invest in filter socks; much better and can be reused multiple times. Also allow for better mechanical filtration [down to 1 micron if you desire].

Use media like Seachem Pond Matrix, better than bioballs and 4L costs $25. That's enough for 400G of water; you don't need a drip tray, etc. Just a media bag and throw it in the sump.


Why do you need activated carbon? Or a refugium?


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## bobfig (Aug 30, 2014)

how big is the tank and how big is the sump going to be?

if you need help i can draw something in autocad out to give you an actual size of everything.

imo i would do something like this setup and put some medium to fine foam in the tray where the grill is.

as for foam here http://www.swisstropicals.com/filtration-shop/poret-foam-shop/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUTqxtPzK1g


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Evaporation takes place in the pump area. If you want a refugium then leave out that last divider and put a prefilter sponge on the pump to increase the evaporation area. You might have to top off the tank daily with such a small area for evaporation.

Why do you even need an air stone? The water dripping through the bioballs is going to be oxygen rich.

I am not a fan of bioballs either. If you have them then use them but look into other biomedia as well.

Unless you build a tower the bioballs are going to be mostly underwater when the sump is as full as it can be and they aren't designed for that. I am sure they work fine, just not exactly as designed.

Measure your actual overflow length and depth of the water going over and double it for the height of the tallest dividers. Clogs could happen! I have about 12" of overflow and 12" of sump width and the water can be 1/2" deep over the overflow so I would have my dividers at least an inch below and probably be 2" below top of tank.

Agree, too many dividers. Unless you want the heater all neat and tidy that divider is definitely overkill.

I wouldn't use socks unless I had somebody else dealing with them. They need to be bleached to reuse, what a bother. I like sponge over felt or floss as it is easier to get clean and lasts forever. Haven't used thin sheets though. I put a coarse sponge over the drain in the overflow, not the sump.


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## Ruxl (Dec 14, 2013)

Here's a picture of my sump, which looks very similar to your plans.

One thing of note is that I need to top off the return portion 1-2x a week. I would highly recommend as large of a return section as you can manage. I'm likely going to ditch my refugium completely as anything I grow there I should be able to grow in the display tank.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Not sure why you need a refugium; that's done in SW for nutrient export. Only time I'd use a refugium is for fish only tanks like with Africans or stingrays, etc. to eliminate NO3 and PO4.


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## Ruxl (Dec 14, 2013)

I've used it to grow new (to me) plants, let shorter plantlets get established post trim, and to isolate struggling plants.

I've heard of some keeping shrimp in them, but I'd be worried about them getting sucked into the return pump.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

That would be a good reason; Cherry shrimp in the refugium - those that make it to the display become live food.


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## Agr414 (Jan 17, 2014)

Here's my 20 gallon long sump design I made on MS paint. I plan on using a fluidized bed with a k1 type of media. I also plan on seeding it in the first chamber with some Seachem matrix that has been in my turtle tank sump for a few months. 










The brown blocks are poret foam. I have built it, but I still have to clean up the silicone because it looks like a 5 year old did it. lol


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Raul's points are spot on. 

Many people try to over-complicate a freshwater sump. I run one so I have place to grow out fry, shrimp and specific moss types. The only "baffle" I have is a piece of poret foam separating the "refugium" from the return pump. I use poret foam religiously, but I believe a lot of bio media benefits are over stated. Poret foam is great for feeding fry, shrimp and attaching moss too.

Filter socks are the way to go.

Again, do not make this more complicated than it needs to be. The most simple answer is usually the correct one.


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

I have absolutely no knowledge of the why and what but I was told to google and youtube when I previously looked for help making this sump... this is what I came up with...
Here's the link to my other thread.. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=726009&highlight=
basically I am making this sump for a vivarium that will have a pond area (kind of like a paludarium I guess).
There will be 30gallon of water in the vivarium, only 5gallon swimmable for the fishes/shrimps that I will have in there.
Two reasons for the sump, keep water level in the vivarium, and enhance water quality for the fishes.
So I tried to google as much as I can, but it's REAL hard to find good related info as 90% of the info is for salt water... I figure this after I started reading about skimmers and realized I didn't need one... Don't really need UVs either right?
Charcoal from my understand is good at first then you remove it... add it again later if you want to remove meds from the water?
Then I read about wet dry filters with bioballs and thought that was a real good idea so went on and build my sump because as you can see on the other post, I received quite different feedback.

Now I am real puzzled and hope I didn't mess everything up.
I think my baffles are way too high for wet dry system..
What does ATO stand for? You are talking to a noob here hehe. I just wanna do this right altho I am no expert.
I am on a budget but at the same time, I wanna keep it real simple. I am in no way wanna go into anything fancy as just having a pond with fishes in a vivarium is already quite fancy!
I will keep it simple... I am thinking guppies and shrimps! only have 5 gallon of swimmable area but will have around 50 gallon of water all in all so if I can keep a good quality of water, I'd like to think that the few fishes in there will be healthy and happy right?

I was thinking about a foam filter pad and thought they were reusable too.. what's the difference with a filter sock? I just stick those on the end of my overflow tubes? Easy to get on ebay?

I already have gazzillion bioballs in the mail... should I still keep em? Get my hands on seachem matrix too? As you can see, my sump has two media compartment and a refugium too so might as well use em maybe? 
I am trying to make the best of where I am at right now... I wish I have had that info before I went and built it... I looked hard and made my homework but as I am saying, it's quite hard for a noob like me to know what and what not you know.

refugium grow lotso good bacteria no? Also grow plants and hospital tank for the fishes? Not sure hahah... well there is a compartment made for that purpose so should I use it for that or is there a better use for it?

I am not too sure what you mean by evaporation area and it being good thing? Why do I want to increase evaporation area? I thought you put a baffle there to prevent plants from clogging the pump...

You also completely lost me with the overflow lenght thing... my baffles are already siliconed in there... is this too late anyways?

I wasn't going to make an extra compartment but then I decided to... now what? how can I make use of it? about 75% of the top of the vivarium will be covered and also there will be lots water input from mistking and fogging system so I am wondering if I will ever have to top off..

Thank you everybody so much for all that info!!! I will be reading about everything mentionned in here to know a bit more what I might need and not need but any comment and opinions are most welcomed!!! Just understand you are talking to a noob that doesn't really have any experience of knowledge to base on... just want his aquarium portion of his vivarium to be decent and healthy!!! Nothing more!

Thanks again!!


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## Ruxl (Dec 14, 2013)

FwoGiZ said:


> Don't really need UVs either right?


 Doesn't hurt to have UV. I had to go and buy one when I had a green water outbreak. You will not have to use it 100% of the time, however.



FwoGiZ said:


> Charcoal from my understand is good at first then you remove it... add it again later if you want to remove meds from the water?


 Pretty much. I would only run charcoal if you have a purpose for running it (such as removing meds). Even then, a water change does the same thing, plus has other benefits.



FwoGiZ said:


> Now I am real puzzled and hope I didn't mess everything up.
> I think my baffles are way too high for wet dry system..
> What does ATO stand for?


 Yes, probably too high, but that doesn't mean it won't work as an increased surface area for beneficial bacteria.

ATO = automatic top off. A nice thing to have but not necessary by any means.



FwoGiZ said:


> I will keep it simple... I am thinking guppies and shrimps! only have 5 gallon of swimmable area but will have around 50 gallon of water all in all so if I can keep a good quality of water, I'd like to think that the few fishes in there will be healthy and happy right?


 You have the right thought process. You can probably fit more than you would normally fit in a 5 gal aquarium, but don't go crazy. You will be extremely well filtered but fish still need space to swim.



FwoGiZ said:


> I was thinking about a foam filter pad and thought they were reusable too.. what's the difference with a filter sock? I just stick those on the end of my overflow tubes? Easy to get on ebay?


 Either way works fine. I use filter pads that I buy in a roll and cut to size. Filter socks are just what you are thinking of. Both can be cleaned, filter socks are much more reusable. If you go filter socks you can get extra and always have one clean. My foam is good for 2-3 serious rinces before I change it out, although I could probably keep it much longer.



FwoGiZ said:


> I already have gazzillion bioballs in the mail... should I still keep em? Get my hands on seachem matrix too? As you can see, my sump has two media compartment and a refugium too so might as well use em maybe?


 The more surface area for beneficial bacteria, the better. That said, if you are only talking 5 gallons of displayed water, you won't see much benefit to a TON of bioballs, as you won't have the biological load that they can handle. Think 700hp car on 25mph road.



FwoGiZ said:


> refugium grow lotso good bacteria no? Also grow plants and hospital tank for the fishes? Not sure hahah... well there is a compartment made for that purpose so should I use it for that or is there a better use for it?


 Refug won't grow any more/less bacteria than any other surface. You will not want it for a hospital tank, as you don't want your hospital tank water to co-mingle with your main tank. My tiger barbs like to pick at HC for some crazy reason; the refug allowed me to grow it, although no one sees it but me... 



FwoGiZ said:


> I am not too sure what you mean by evaporation area and it being good thing? Why do I want to increase evaporation area? I thought you put a baffle there to prevent plants from clogging the pump...


 The amount of water that is held in the last section of your sump, that holds your return pump, is the maximum amount of water that you can have evaporate out of your system. If you have a 2000gal aquarium/sump, but the return portion is only 1gal, you can only lose 1 gallon to evaporation throughout the whole system before the return pump starts to run dry. You have static water levels everywhere in your system, except the final chamber of the sump. This is one of the beauties of a sump, but also a potential gotcha.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

The pump moves water to display tank and then the water overflows the display tank into the sump. That area will stay full of water. Water evaporates if the system isn't closely covered and that pump area will go dry. First it will pull air into the display tank then pump will get hot, seize up and die. Keep reading about sump design, that point is well made in reef keeping forums. Look into using eggcrate to keep plants away from the pump, use a prefilter sponge on the pump's intake [my plan]. I never had plants sticking to the prefilter sponge on the pump I had in the 180 gallon long tank.

Just allow a couple inches below the top of the tank in case something clogs. If you have to put your hand in the sump when pump is off you don't want a completely full sump anyway. More water is good, fewer floods are good too!

I tried to learn about planted tanks from old FAMA issues and wondered about protein skimmers too! First tank actually had one as it was a SeaclearII. Learned they don't work in time and never set it up though.

I'd use the bioballs if you have them, they work fine. I am blown away by the improvement in my tank running foam over bioballs but maybe that is just me.


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

ok so in my case, having so much water and so few fishes, the bioballs will be just good enough right? basically they just don't buildup as much beneficial bacteria as other bio media volume wise?
This pond being part of a vivarium will also get vivarium detritus so I'll have to keep an eye on my water quality at all time.

So I guess I should put some kinda glass on top of my sump right? seal it as good as I can?
Good think misting and fogging system will be injecting new water in the tank I guess  I think it will be pretty efficient at not wasting too much water.
Should I still bother with water changes? maybe one a month or so instead?


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## bobfig (Aug 30, 2014)

imo you would be just fine if you used some eheim substrat pro or seachem pond matrix just under the carbon to get the same effect.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

The purpose of a wet/dry filter is to keep the bio media out of the water as much as possible. Will it work if it is submerged, yes but it works differently. BB that is open to air uses oxygen from the air instead of the water which in turn keeps the water more oxygenated. Great for fish. I agree that using filter floss in or post the bio media is less work than filter socks. Floss is cheap and is basically used as a disposable item. I have both options for the sumps I am building but I am favoring the filter floss much more. If you do socks, have several on hand. That way you can pull the dirty ones and replace with fresh ones while you go thru the 2-3 day process of cleaning them.

I have my sumps drawn up in CAD as well but I don't have that image available to post right now as I am at work for the examples I am listing below. But basically a simple setup could be:
1) Entry chamber (with or without prefilters)
2) Under, over baffle for bubble trap or just an Over baffle
3) Drip tray (with or without filter floss)
4) Bio media (this should be the largest chamber)
5) Return pump (isolated with or without a baffle)

The tower option
1) filter floss then your drip tray
2) bio media compartment ( compartment will be small if done this way though as you try to keep it out the water)
3) eliminate #2 and go with a bubble trap here ( over, under baffles)
4) Another drip tray 
5) bio media ( again this should be the largest compartment)
6) return pump ( with or without baffle)

I also don't see the need for a refugium in a FW tank. Yeah you can isolate things but your taking up precious space that can be occupied by bio media. Use a separate grow-out tank for plants or endangered inhabitants. Plus a refugium requires a light. If you had to do a refugium, the over the baffle setup baffles me. Incoming water doesn't fully circulate in the chamber and leaves the old water uncirculated at the bottom. I'd do a under, over baffle in the refugium. This way water is forced to have to circulate thru the chamber in order to reach the pump. Use a sponge filter or filter floss in the baffle leaving the refugium if you have shrimp or fish staged in there to keep them from going to the pump. With the baffle as drawn at the refugium, you can't prevent much from entering the pump unless the pump had its own little chamber with a sponge or something equal.

Ditch the air stone (especially if your running co2 in any way). If your not using co2, I would stress much on covering the sump unless you have too much evaporation. Also the charcoal can go as mentioned above. It has a certain capacity and must be discarded anyways. UV doesn't have to be used full time so, I'd ditch it and only put in service as needed. Most of us don't use them. Most sump setups you see on the web will be SW based. You just have to be aware of its purpose for that particular setup and that all of that does not need to carry over to a Freshwater setup. SW tanks need to eliminate nitrate which is the purpose for the refugium for them as well to grow copepods or what not. They house algaes in there refugiums as use plants in our display tanks to rid of nitrate.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

Here are a few quick sketches I just CADed up while at work. Water levels will vary but in the dwgs, its just a place holder. The first one is similar to the design I will be running on my 90g setup. Simple and plain. My actual setup for the 90 will actually be a filter/ bio media tank that drains into a 29g return tank. For my 40g breeder setups, I will be mirroring the left side on the right side and using the center as bio media and the return will be under it to get back up to my (2) display tanks. You have to visit the link in my signature to see the quad stand setup I am referring to. I will reveal the sump setup for the 90g next weekend for reference. 

Note that there are many other ways to do a sump so my way is not the only way. These are just designs I would construct for my tanks.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

There is no need for baffles; it's for SW tanks. They *need* them by design:
A) Skimmer needs a constant water level
B) The return area needs to small to prevent ATO from adding too much FW
C) Bubble trap serves to eliminated bubbles from the skimmer before they reach the display
D) Refugium for nutrient export; this is because SPS suffer with high NO3 and PO4.

Now none of that applies to FW.

Getting rid of the baffles allows you to a bigger return area, means less chance for a flood when the return loses power.


*Keep it simple.*

*You don't need a biotower; that's outdated. Sintered glass-media provides more cubic feet of surface area than those plastic bioballs. Get Pond Matrix and some media bags. Just lay them in the sump.
*Go with filter socks; they provide superior mechanical filtration to those blue and white pads. They're reusable.
*Heaters can be laid down flat before the return pump
*Refugium is optional [has no real use in a planted tank where we want nutrients in the water, not out] but you can use eggcrate to make the baffles; this allows water to move freely while keeping the inhabitants inside.
*For chemical filtration get a reactor like a BRS reactor; this is also optional since WCs achieve the same thing. SW needs it because it costs a lot to change 1G of SW in comparison to 1G of FW.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I don't agree with removing all baffles unless your doing a tower design. You need at the least one entry chamber otherwise. The baffle(s) serves as filter media compartment(s) prior to reaching the bio media. Keep as much organic matter off the bio media as possible. Depending on your overflow system, you don't want to expose your pump to bubbles. Bean Animal and Herbie introduce the fewest bubbles. I can't say that about others. A bubble trap works in both FW and SW. If bubbles enter the sump without a trap, you got a good chance of them reentering the display via the pump. You want the bubble to rise upon entry as quickly as possible in order to not push thru the sump. I would also avoid having a return chamber being to small as everyone won't run a ATO. Your pump could starve out if it pumped too much water or water evaporates too quickly. One of the purposes of a sump in general is to allow the whole thing to take on evaporation instead of the display itself. Don't entertain the return section being starved. Raul you just contradicted your statement by saying get rid of the baffles to make a bigger return area.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

In FW the less baffles the better.
Every one of them is a gas exchange.
Raul pretty much nailed it.
If it wasn't for micro bubbles I might not even have baffles in my SW sumps.
Eggcrate and get the longest time between top offs possible.
Why would anyone own a 30,40,50 gallon sump and need to top off every 2,3,4 gallons to keep pump from running dry?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

flight50 said:


> I don't agree with removing all baffles unless your doing a tower design. You need at the least one entry chamber otherwise. The baffle(s) serves as filter media compartment(s) prior to reaching the bio media. Keep as much organic matter off the bio media as possible.


Why do you need so many compartments? Filter socks for mechanical; that can range from 200 to 10 microns if your heart desires. The socks filter out all the organic matter, unlike the design used for filter pads - your drain lines go into the socks, hence all the water must pass through the socks which are welded at the seams. For biomedia, just use media bags filled with sintered glass media and lay them down in the sump after the filtersocks. 





> I would also avoid having a return chamber being to small as everyone won't run a ATO. Your pump could starve out if it pumped too much water or water evaporates too quickly. One of the purposes of a sump in general is to allow the whole thing to take on evaporation instead of the display itself. Don't entertain the return section being starved. Raul you just contradicted your statement by saying get rid of the baffles to make a bigger return area.


I didn't contradict myself. I was explaining why baffles are used in SW sumps; they separate the return section to allow for visible evaporation and ATO to occur in the return area alone. This limits the amount of FW entering the system and hence the potential for disasters.

The last thing you want is your ATO going wild and dropping your salinity. 


But in FW we don't care about specific gravity; hence the return area should encompass the entire sump nor do we care about microbubbles; we don't use protein skimmers.


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Again, Raul is right. There is absolutely zero need for baffles in freshwater sump. 

In all my years of reefing and planted tanks I have never understood why people with planted tanks and even reefers get so obsessed over bio media. Do not take this as I am totally against using bio media as I am not. I use some in my tanks, but not specifically for growing beneficial bacteria. People do not realize that the beneficial bacteria already grows all over everything in your tank, in the substrate, on the plants, rocks, wood, etc. For reefs, you add the live rock and also remove crap by skimming. I would bet that if you removed your handful of bio balls from your wet/dry that nothing would change. So if your tank is stocked with plants, you keep up on your water changes and feed appropriately, there is no need to go all out on bio media and bio media designs. People will state that it provides aeration. Well so does water crashing down 3 -4 into a filter sock. Again, just my opinion.

Here is a shot of my simple sump. I have a piece of pvc holding a filter sock. My "baffle" is a piece of 2in 20ppi poret foam wall to help feed my fry and shrimp. The only reason I have a felt pad in my return chamber is because I had extra laying around, possibly makes my filter sock last longer.

Just keep it simple.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

It's not only that; but those plastic bioballs pale in comparison to sintered glass media regarding surface area. 

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/marinepure-ceramic-biomedia-1-1-2-spheres.html.


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## James` (Oct 11, 2014)

> Do not take this as I am totally against using bio media as I am not. I use some in my tanks, but not specifically for growing beneficial bacteria. People do not realize that the beneficial bacteria already grows all over everything in your tank, in the substrate, on the plants, rocks, wood, etc. For reefs, you add the live rock and also remove crap by skimming. I would bet that if you removed your handful of bio balls from your wet/dry that nothing would chan


The bacteria that grows on the tank walls and decoration is not aerobic nitrifying bacteria. It is true in a big enough gravel bed an anaerobic colony can exist and nitrify and denitrify water.. IF you never touch this substrate it is also true that it will release alkalinity and the requirements of water changes could arguably be unnecessary in a big enough refugium..

Unlike in saltwater freshwater is not exposed to rapid currents nor is there a tank filled with porous live rock.. Even in saltwater the addition of biological filter media will become necessary depending on how many corals you have, how much coraline how many inverts such as worms live within your live rock, and especially you bioload/amount of fish..

I just wanted to mention that...

Also skimmers can only remove 30% of proteins that is why water changes are always the best bet in salt.. If you removed bio-balls and continued to feed a heavy stock tank the way you were you will certainly experience a mini-cycle.. Bio balls and ceramic rings are not the best biological media.. Did you know Seachem Matrix is even more porous than live rock and more beneficial as a biological media

Live rocks in saltwater are to be used to sustain the nitrogen cycle, not be responsible for filtration on its own..

btw I would remove the filter sock from the beginning of the filter. Isn't all that stuff plant food? It should be allowed to settle in the substrate. Your sponge before the return pump should be sufficient mechanical.

EDIT: If you want your refugium to be successful in freshwater I may consider a deeper substrate bed. At least 3" I believe that is when the nitrifying properties can occur, but I would have to double check that statistic.


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## bobfig (Aug 30, 2014)

whats yall thought on this sump

its a 4" sock filter to a 3" wide poret foam to some bio media like eheim or seachem matrix


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

So james,

You are telling me that nitrifying bacteria only grow on bio media? If that is true, you are wrong. Bio media is meant to harbor MORE bacteria because of surface area, hence why people love sponges. Your tanks still contain nitrifying bacteria without specific bio media.

I have a reef, and last time i checked corals do not produce any noticeable waste. So i have no idea why you need bio media for a large number of corals. For a coral only tank, only skimming and water changes are needed.

I never said live rock filters the tank. Live rock and live sand beds contain nitrifying bacteria. So again, not sure what you mean when you speak about all the tubes, worms etc.

Yes, the detritus can provide plant food. But you have to make sure it does not significantly alter the amount of nitrates already being introduced via fish food, waste and/or ferts.

Let me state that bio media is by no means a substitute for consistent water changes. The longer i keep my reef and planted tanks the less I believe in the bio media craze.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

As mentioned above, there are many ways to setup a sump. I only gave a few examples on what I would construct. Everyone is free to do as they please. I prefer to run baffles to incorporate pre-filters and isolation. Any debris that is too large to pass thru filtration in the entry chamber will get trapped and removed during tank maintenance. It's much easier to remove there than allowing debris to flow where ever it pleases. We all know there are many types of bio media on the market. Some are better than others just as some are more expensive than others. For me, I will be running bio bale in my sump as a wet/dry. I have entertained running kaldness if I don't run a wet/dry. I want to keep as much debris away from either of these as much as possible.

I also stated that filter socks is an option for me. I currently have 2 sets that are idle and will probably remain that way. I do not plan on monitoring these socks every 3-4 days to swap them out. For me and my schedule, that is not practical. I only have the weekends to do tank maintenance. Once a sock reaches its capacity, water will and can overflow making the sock useless unless they are elevated above the sump. We all don't have space and the height to elevate a sock to prevent this from happening. In my case, my setups are very tight spaced and I can't elevate socks.

I am well aware that bb grows on pretty much anything it can attach to within a system. Therefore I am sure if one removed all the bio media from a sump, there would be some type of change. You can't take out a large percentage of bb and not expect some type of change. At least I wouldn't try it on a tank that I purposely overstocked and compensated with bio media in the sump.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

bobfig said:


> whats yall thought on this sump
> 
> its a 4" sock filter to a 3" wide poret foam to some bio media like eheim or seachem matrix


That's smart sump^^^
You have positive mechanicals and overflows YET plenty of room for water to evaporate and not need daily top offs!
I like it!


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

I REALLLY wished you guys would have joined that other threads I made several months ago!!! Now my sump is all built and stuff... with the few information I managed to get which was really confusing for me since most of the time, they won't specify that it only applies to SW!

Anyhow... now I am willing to modify my sump if it won't cost me too much and I'd also rather not have to remove the water as it is being cycled as it is..
I will post picture of my setup in the next post but I will reiterate this and I am pretty sure it makes a huge difference on what I need for my sump but there will be couple fishes/shrimps in 5 gallons of swimmable water for almost 50gal of water! This will be a kinda paludarium setup with LOTSO o live plants (in the ground part.. couple in the water part) with frogs, geckos soo all in all, not sure what the requirement would be filter/sump wise!

so i am thinking removing the last piece of glass to have a much bigger return reservoir.. and I could use a big piece of foam just like in forensicfish picture up there! I like this idea and it does make sense to me. There will not be that much places to grow many plants in the 5gallons where the fishes will be so I am thinking I can keep a refugium to grow my plants better, plus extra good stuff in the sump!
Then I still have those two baffles sections.... Should I just cut one down? If so, which one? 
Considering how few fishes (Without forgetting the extra terrestrial waste if it applies? I actually think most of the terrestrial plants with their roots in the water will be very helpful right?) will the bioballs in one of the baffle section be good enough or should I be considering buying some of that matrix stuff? I already have a BUNCH of bioballs... I really want my water to be top quality but I don't wanna waste money on overkill right?

I also kinda like the idea of using lotso substrate in the refugium along with the plants... literrally building a pond swampy ecosystem basically! Same as for vivarium..!

oh while we're at it.. any suggestions for substrate? Does it matter or should I just pic whatever looks better for my vivarium? (It's pirate themed ahah)

Thanks a LOT everyone for all the precious info!


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

The bio balls will work fine for you.
I had a Chinese water dragon over a 75g with overflow sump and a couple predator fish for many years.The "extra terrestrial" waste never caused any issues.I even thought this a much better way to keep the lizards area clean also,as there was little land under him without plants.


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

So there is 4and a half inches of water everywhere in the big tank but most is contained in the false bottom which is sealed with mesh so fishes can't go under. 
That's about 30gal of water and I am thinking another 20ish in the sump.
Lemme know your thoughts


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> ...rather not have to remove the water as it is being cycled as it is.


Water doesn't cycle. Put the filter media in a bucket and run a small pump or bubbler and keep adding ammonia to keep the cycle going while you drain and modify the system. When the changes are done, put the media back into the sump and add enough ammonia to bring it to 3 ppm, and continue cycling.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Just pull the last baffle before the pump.
No need to stop anything.
A razor and away it goes,water running and everything.
The last baffle is the difference between daily top offs and weekly.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I agree with just removing the last baffle. This issue with pulling it without draining that chamber though is bits of silicone will be left floating around possibly. If your pump doesn't have a filter, the pump will suck it up. Also, as Diana stated, water doesn't cycle so you can easily take the sump down while you remove the last baffle. If you get one of those long retractable blade utility knives, it will slice thru with minimum effort. I just did mine last night but my tank is empty. There will also be silicone left on the glass for it won't all come off in one big piece.


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

Yeah I took it down... Now I will get my hand on a big piece of foam to keep the pump debris free. I will try and grow plants in the sump "refugium". The two other compartment I want to fill them up with bioballs since I have them anyways... and possibly something else if you guys think it would help? I also have an easy spot to use charcoal bags if/when needed!

Other than that, does this make sense? Just need to start cycling the whole thing I guess? I will have to read about it


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

ok so I guess I Just want a last confirmation hehe!!
Pretty much all the info are on the attach pic..
1. I wanna know if the positionning of my pieces of foam is good
2. Refugium; i wanna grow plants n moss in there... is this doable? what kinda substrate should i put if so? sand? gravel?
3. Should I put my bioballs in first or second compartment? I guess I'll use the other for coal when/if required?
4. AIR STONES!? Where would I put them? Under both my bioballs? Bacteria need air and ammonia to grow right?
5. is this good spot for heater?

Thanks a lot!!!!!!


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## FwoGiZ (Apr 16, 2014)

bumpgee


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Bio ball location is fine. I would ditch the bio balls and use a filter sock or just a filter pad. You have a large piece of foam and a fuge area to help with any bio filtration. Just my opinion. Foam position is good.

Do not place your heater inbetween the small are of the baffles. Move the heater to the fuge, return or second compartment. You do not need an airstone below your bio balls (but its an interesting thought). There is enough oxygen in the water without the airstone. Keep in mind, the plants, bacteria etc oxygenate the water along with it crashing down into the sump and being returned via the pump.

Substrate in the fuge area should be determined by the type of plants you wish to grow. Simple stem plants (rotala indica, myrio, anacharis etc) will be fine in an inch or so of sand and/or flourite. Heavy rooters like crypts will need a deeper substrate. You can use whatever substrate you want. Keep in mind if you are constantly moving plants around in the fuge, you do not want to make a mess. Use a messy substrate and cap it with sand or do not use a messy substrate in the first place.

Make the return compartment as small as possible to make more room for your fuge.


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