# Can we get to the bottom of GDA? Turns out the cause was BGA so check it out!



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This might not add up to a hill of beans, so while I cannot keep GDA going........
You seem to have the gift.

Try this, add 5-8ppm of Mg++ as MgSO4.
Nothing else.

Clean and do the normal routine, see if there's an improvement in a 1-3 weeks.


This and CO2 seem to be the only two variables I can seem to find and correlate. Mostly in folks' tanks that have a lot of stem plants etc.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So add that much extra magnesium sulfate on top of the regular dosing I am doing?

PS-A hill of beans is all im really looking for since the general consensus reports that co2 is the main culprit yet I cant add anymore without killing my animals. And when I say I have surface agitation I mean I have surface agitation. There is tons of o2 in the water and that allows me to add waaaay more carbon to the water too. But I know im preaching to the choir with you on that topic.


----------



## Grendel (Jan 17, 2003)

I'm in the same boat as you. Can't kick the GDA, no matter what I do... I've got the CO2 cranked, I'm adding Excel at twice the recommended rate, and I've got zero other algae issues at all. Lifting the lights about 10 inches about the water helped slow it down, but it keeps coming back.

Adding Mg is worth a try, though I hadn't heard about it before (and believe me, I think I might've read everything there is to read on the internet about GDA)... 

Good luck!



G


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I think co2 just makes the issue worse. I completely understand that in a high tech tank there will be some GDA but on my 37g if I dont clean it every few days it looks horrible.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

And Tom, would epsom salt work for the Mg?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> And Tom, would epsom salt work for the Mg?


Yep, adding more like PO4, does not hurt the plants.

I've gone up to 20-25ppm in the past.

Might just shoot for say 5-10ppm and see.

The effects on the plants should be fairly rapid.

Then secondarily, the alga. 

BTW, Excel will not toast the green algae.
They can do the same as a plant can.
It might help the plants indirectly, but it's not like with BBA etc.

Mg is speculation, but it is one of those nutrients few pay much attention to, so not a bad place to start if the CO2 is tweaked/O2 etc.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Try this, add 5-8ppm of Mg++ as MgSO4.
> Nothing else.





bsmith said:


> And Tom, would epsom salt work for the Mg?


He's referring to Epsom salts specifically (MgSO4) in this post specifically, I think. Hopefully, you lick this thing.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Ill get some salt today and start adding. How am I supposed to test for the levels? I never test my tanks as the plants grow fine so I am without any kits.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Ill get some salt today and start adding. How am I supposed to test for the levels? I never test my tanks as the plants grow fine so I am without any kits.


Dosing calculator.

http://calc.petalphile.com/

Good if YOU get clogged too


----------



## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

I have been dealing with GDA for quite some time and finally made some headway in the last few weeks. 

The only solution Id found in the past was to reduce lighting intensity by raising my fixture a few inches and maintaining the photoperiod. This would usually reduce or get rid of the GDA temporarily, but I didnt like having to raise my light and lose the growth.

The 'wait 3 weeks and pray' method never worked for me and just felt silly. Especially when you do some research and realize that the species of algae that is often proposed as the source of GDA (Ankistrodesmus) does NOT have a spore stage. Also, i have examined my GDA under a microscope throughout all stages of its life in my tank and it looks nothing like Ankistrodesmus.

Recently though, I'd read through the method of controlled imbalances thread on the 'other forum'. That thread mentions changing the Mg to Ca ratio (more Mg). Its a very interesting read, well worth the time. I would not take everything in there for gospel, but it really opened my eyes and convinced me to try a new approach.

So i started adding Mg, but my tap water is pretty hard to begin with (gh of 12) and my R Walichii stunted on me. Based on some research, this seemed to indicate too much Mg so I have started doing my water changes with 1/4 tap and 3/4 distilled water for the past two weeks. I then add a small amount of Mg. My R Walichii no longer stunts and, much more exciting, i have gone two consecutive water changes without seeing even a hint of that ugly green curtain that i was so used to seeing within 3 days of a scraping 

The contolled imbalances thread also states that a high level of phosphates contributes to GDA. It is interesting to note that my tap water contains 1 ppm of phosphate. I was also adding even more phosphate with my standard EI dosing and my tank used to run between 1 to 2 ppm phosphate. At the same time that i started cutting my WCs with distilled water, I also cut phosphate from my EI dosing regiment. My tank now starts the week with about .25 ppm phosphate after my WC and becomes almost undetectable by the end of the week before the next WC.

i know that it is supposedly outdated thinking and frequently derided, but I do believe that high phosphate levels Contribute (not necessarily sole cause) to GDA. More clearly: I think that the MCI thread is right when it states that the RATIO of phosphate to nitrate is important. 

Tom will surely point that I am changing multiple variables simultaneously and, with no control, nothing is proved. I wont argue, but, if you're at the end of your rope with GDA I would recommend 1)reading through the Method of contolled imbalances thread in its entirety 2) changing your Mg to Ca ratio (more Mg) and 3) changing your Phospahte to Nitrate ratio (less Phosphate)

if you do read the MCI thread, i would recommend skipping the 'protocol' that he recommends and just tinkering with your existing dosing regimen to change your ratios instead. That protocol seems a bit extreme and seems like it could throw your tank out of whack if not managed very carefully. 


Sorry for the novel, but just wanted to share the results I've had. Hope this is helpful. 

Dan


----------



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I was going to mention the MCI thread on APC also even though I know there some who will dispute it to the death, but if what you're doing now isn't working then why not try something a bit different.


----------



## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Good if YOU get clogged too


 
hahaha


----------



## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

I've noticed if i dose too much phosphorous i get GDA on the glass.. That or not enough potassium..


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DMtankd said:


> I have been dealing with GDA for quite some time and finally made some headway in the last few weeks.
> 
> The only solution Id found in the past was to reduce lighting intensity by raising my fixture a few inches and maintaining the photoperiod. This would usually reduce or get rid of the GDA temporarily, but I didnt like having to raise my light and lose the growth.
> 
> The 'wait 3 weeks and pray' method never worked for me and just felt silly. Especially when you do some research and realize that the species of algae that is often proposed as the source of GDA (Ankistrodesmus) does NOT have a spore stage. Also, i have examined my GDA under a microscope throughout all stages of its life in my tank and it looks nothing like Ankistrodesmus.


This is because it is the zoospore(asexual) stage.
I stated this years ago FYI.........

You can refer 

http://www.algaebase.org/search/gen...02&-session=abv4:62FF0D630a4e325CC0WSt3E16549

It states quite clearly, it does have a spore stage(sexual and asexual). There's also somewhere around 100 species in the genus. The ID was made by a senior phycologist at UF, Dr Phlips. Dr Davis also confirmed. I have far less experience than they, it is possible they are incorrect, but I seriously doubt it. 

You'd have to offer something far more concrete than this..... in other words to convince me.



> Recently though, I'd read through the method of controlled imbalances thread on the 'other forum'. That thread mentions changing the Mg to Ca ratio (more Mg). Its a very interesting read, well worth the time. I would not take everything in there for gospel, but it really opened my eyes and convinced me to try a new approach.


Well, is this anything to do with balances or algae, vs simply adding more nutrients like Mg that might simply be limiting plants?

Refer to Liebig's law of limitation, basic reading that the PPS and MCI crowd seems very willing to suspend for their belief.

This does not imply that those 2 methods to do not work, just not for the reasons they claim them, which is an important point. We can and have tested many cases well outside their parameters without issues and have been unable to inoculate. Plenty of folks use EI and get GDA also, but.....many do not pay much attention to Mg in general.

It is very simple and straight forward to add more and see the plant response.
Algae will be secondary.



> So i started adding Mg, but my tap water is pretty hard to begin with (gh of 12) and my R Walichii stunted on me. Based on some research, this seemed to indicate too much Mg so I have started doing my water changes with 1/4 tap and 3/4 distilled water for the past two weeks. I then add a small amount of Mg. My R Walichii no longer stunts and, much more exciting, i have gone two consecutive water changes without seeing even a hint of that ugly green curtain that i was so used to seeing within 3 days of a scraping


I have had tap water in Davis CA where the Mg is 52ppm, 5x higher than claimed by Edward(he claimed 10ppm as I recall). 

I cut this by 1/2 with RO, so about 25ppm Mg. 


















It grows much better with good Mg.
HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE RATIO. 

I think it's safe to say that many faster growing stem plants do better on a diet of higher Mg.



> The contolled imbalances thread also states that a high level of phosphates contributes to GDA.


So why none of my tanks could ever be inoculated at 5ppm 3x a week of PO4 as KH2PO4? Ya know, this type of rubbish can and has been falsified, and yet folks still fall for it over and over. History repeats. Nothing new is really learned this way.

I could also say the same thing about high levels of light. Nutrocentric algae correlatives, rather than plant horticulture, that's the root of the issue. These issues are almost always much more general and centered around poor plant care. 

At what ppb/ppm range of PO4 does GDA become limited? 
If you can answer that, then you begin to discuss this claim and know what range is required.



> It is interesting to note that my tap water contains 1 ppm of phosphate. I was also adding even more phosphate with my standard EI dosing and my tank used to run between 1 to 2 ppm phosphate. At the same time that i started cutting my WCs with distilled water, I also cut phosphate from my EI dosing regiment. My tank now starts the week with about .25 ppm phosphate after my WC and becomes almost undetectable by the end of the week before the next WC.
> 
> 
> > Folks routinely dose 2-3ppm to prevent GSA, been doing it for 15 years on 50 or aquariums over that time. Many tanks chew through .8 to 1 ppm a week.
> ...


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jeff5614 said:


> I was going to mention the MCI thread on APC also even though I know there some who will dispute it to the death, but if what you're doing now isn't working then why not try something a bit different.


Why not just do PMDD?

Does the same thing.....

End result limits PO4.........which limits Mg demand, CO2 etc and limits all other nutrients in plants.

This is the principle on which PMDD was developed, Liebig's law of the Minimum.


----------



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Why not just do PMDD?
> 
> Does the same thing.....
> 
> ...


That is an idea but I think I'd try MCI or whatever it's called if I were going to depart from EI. Although MCI and EI seem more similar to me than different. EI isn't set in stone and was meant to be changed to suit one's tank if I've read everything correctly. MCI seems to be doing just that although it makes some assumptions that I don't know much about. Anyway I was just thinking there's probably more than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Folks routinely dose 2-3ppm to prevent GSA, been doing it for 15 years on 50 or aquariums over that time. Many tanks chew through .8 to 1 ppm a week.


I guess every tank is different, i have always have GSA problems in my 72g, and i had more than 7ppm of PO4 at one point, and there were still GSA on the glasses. while i have a 10g that I don't add any PO4 on top of whatever is in my tap water, I don't have GSA problems, only GDA.


----------



## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

Tom, you are an excellent debater and have a great deal of background. I wont go point by point with your lengthy response because it detracts from the overall point I would like to make to those who are struggling through the same thing I went through: read other philosophies on fertilization and use them to extend what you think you already know. 

The MCI is not perfect but it pulls together a few points that are very important. I do not know if it is a great overall fertilization methodology, but the thread has really helped me to take the blinders off, tailor my fert routine to my tap water and chosen plant species, and ultimately, rid me of my GDA

Tom, you've garnered quite a celebrity over the years and it is well deserved. I credit EI for helping me start up my tank and run it relatively algae free for some time. But specifically on the point of GDA, I have to say that a lot of your writings have actually led me down blind alleys or left me sitting in front of my tank, waiting and praying when I should have been tinkering. Shame on me. However, I have to say I am always surprised to see you downplay and strawman other methodologies (MCI does NOT ultimately limit PO4, just keeps it not in excess, there is a 'protocol' to determine the amount your tap water/plant species consume and keep it just in line). I am also always surprised to read your general condescension towards others in the hobby (I am familiar with Liebigs law as are the proponents of MCI and PPS)

I do appreciate your input, I just want folks to know there are other approaches that run counter to some of your advice and that they ARE working and getting rid of algae issues for some folks. Your celebrity and criticism inititally caused me to ignore other approaches and suffer for much longer than I should have with GDA.


----------



## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

DMtankd said:


> Tom, you are an excellent debater and have a great deal of background. I wont go point by point with your lengthy response because it detracts from the overall point I would like to make to those who are struggling through the same thing I went through: read other philosophies on fertilization and use them to extend what you think you already know.
> 
> The MCI is not perfect but it pulls together a few points that are very important. I do not know if it is a great overall fertilization methodology, but the thread has really helped me to take the blinders off, tailor my fert routine to my tap water and chosen plant species, and ultimately, rid me of my GDA
> 
> ...


:thumbsup:

EI is not the end all be all.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

darkoon said:


> I guess every tank is different, i have always have GSA problems in my 72g, and i had more than 7ppm of PO4 at one point, and there were still GSA on the glasses. while i have a 10g that I don't add any PO4 on top of whatever is in my tap water, I don't have GSA problems, only GDA.


GSA has a couple of variables, if the CO2 is good, then low PO4, if the PO4 is high, then poor CO2. So even high PO4 will not rule out GSA. I get it if the CO2 is poor, even with high PO4 dosing. PO4 is easier to rule out than CO2, which is arguably the most difficult and most lethal.

So from there, nutrients are managed easily, then light is measured, then this leaves CO2 as the single variable.

Much easier to figure out this way.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DMtankd said:


> Tom, you are an excellent debater and have a great deal of background. I wont go point by point with your lengthy response because it detracts from the overall point I would like to make to those who are struggling through the same thing I went through: read other philosophies on fertilization and use them to extend what you think you already know.
> 
> The MCI is not perfect but it pulls together a few points that are very important. I do not know if it is a great overall fertilization methodology, but the thread has really helped me to take the blinders off, tailor my fert routine to my tap water and chosen plant species, and ultimately, rid me of my GDA
> 
> ...


The bottom line is really this: test a single variable at a time. So if you subscribe to Liebig, Mg seems like an easy obvious candidate. Bsmith has an opportunity to see if this is true, vs any ratio or multiparameter variation.

I could less if monkeys fly out of hind end if I am right or anyone else......however, I'd like to know if Mg is something to look at more in depth, there's correlation there. If I am wrong, we move on to the next likely group of suspects. I'm not going to hang on to it if it gets falsified.

Bsmith and others have an opportunity to test this, I do not. I'd rather not see that wasted and not be able to say much about which variable did what. 

Was it the ADA AS or was it the powersand?
Was it good overall conditions, or was it the heating cables?

You cannot tell unless you test each variable and combination.

MCI might have had a few successes, and few folks using EI might have as well, I see no reason why both observations cannot be true. We cannot say why they failed or not, or at least offer some evidence to that effect unless we attempt some hypothesis that are specific, like testing Mg increase dosing. This is an easy low picked fruit to try out.

No good reason not to try it in other words.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

There is no chance I am going to go away from EI dosing and that has nothing to do with Tom being a well know and respected member of our community but, it does have to do with Tom being about as analytical and fact based as any person I have ever came across on this site and really, the internet as a whole. 

So here is a little sub question I have. Since I use k2so4 and kh2po4 for K and P respectively; could I add more of either one to get the Mg++ I need? This may sound very stupid but I thought that in one of the millions of threads I read that Epsom salt could be used instead one of the aforementioned ferts?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

nonconductive said:


> :thumbsup:
> 
> EI is not the end all be all.


I've _never once stated that it was_ and have routinely stated that no method will meet every goal.

You stated the obvious and there's no conflict or dispute there.

I do not use EI on most of my own aquariums or even CO2, some I do. But even there it's modified.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

DMtankd said:


> The contolled imbalances thread also states that a high level of phosphates contributes to GDA. It is interesting to note that my tap water contains 1 ppm of phosphate. I was also adding even more phosphate with my standard EI dosing and my tank used to run between 1 to 2 ppm phosphate. At the same time that i started cutting my WCs with distilled water, I also cut phosphate from my EI dosing regiment. My tank now starts the week with about .25 ppm phosphate after my WC and becomes almost undetectable by the end of the week before the next WC.


I too have 1ppm phosphate from tapwater. But in my tanks, it typically rises progressively higher from fish waste; it's not unusual to see 5-10ppm. Exactly what kind of phosphate (PO4) is that? I don't know. Phosphate doesn't exist by itself, it's part of a larger compound. And there are many of them, both organic and inorganic.

So what affect do all those mystery phosphates have for me? Apparently, very little. In fact, I still have to add a relatively tiny amount of monopotassium phosphate (KH2PO4) on top of that apparent huge surplus. Without it, GSA starts growing heavily, and plant growth slows down.

On the other hand, I can induce huge algae blooms with another phosphate, orthophosphoric acid (H3PO4); including GDA. And some people who have higher phosphates levels from tapwater than me, have found the only solution to their algae problems was to eliminate or reduce that particular source (and kind) of phosphate.

So does every phosphate form have the same effects on plants/algae? I don't think so.

And what does the addition of extra MgSO4 really do? Is it merely curing a magnesium deficiency? Or is it causing a chemical reaction?

MgSO4 is known to react with ammonia, which has been linked to GDA outbreaks. The product is magnesium hydroxide, commonly known as milk of magnesia. At least your fish won't get heartburn. :hihi:

It also reacts with one of your dry ferts, potassium phosphate, in a double displacement reaction creating two new compounds. One is magnesium phosphate. The other is potassium sulfate, which you'll recognize as another of your dry ferts.

Just a little food for thought, showing how little we really know about what goes on in our tanks.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

bsmith said:


> So here is a little sub question I have. Since I use k2so4 and kh2po4 for K and P respectively; could I add more of either one to get the Mg++ I need? This may sound very stupid but I thought that in one of the millions of threads I read that Epsom salt could be used instead one of the aforementioned ferts?


K2SO4 and KH2PO4 do not contain any magnesium.

Epsom salt (MgSO4) does not contain any potassium or phosphate.

None of them are interchangeable, as far as what nutrients they provide; other than both K2SO4 and KH2PO4 both providing potassium.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

DarkCobra said:


> K2SO4 and KH2PO4 do not contain any magnesium.
> 
> Epsom salt (MgSO4) does not contain any potassium or phosphate.
> 
> None of them are interchangeable, as far as what nutrients they provide; other than both K2SO4 and KH2PO4 both providing potassium.


It was just my brain playing tricks on me again.


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

FWIW brandon, I get Epsom salt at walmart for 3 bucks for four lbs. I add it per PPS-Pro directions and have seen good results. Newer tanks didnt work as well but the older ones shed their GDA.


----------



## DMtankd (Dec 2, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> The bottom line is really this: test a single variable at a time. So if you subscribe to Liebig, Mg seems like an easy obvious candidate. Bsmith has an opportunity to see if this is true, vs any ratio or multiparameter variation.
> 
> I could less if monkeys fly out of hind end if I am right or anyone else......however, I'd like to know if Mg is something to look at more in depth, there's correlation there. If I am wrong, we move on to the next likely group of suspects. I'm not going to hang on to it if it gets falsified.
> 
> ...


Makes sense if you focus only on plant growth - as I know you propose. Mg could be limiting plant growth and giving GDA a foothold, I think the arguement goes. However, my plants always grew incredibly well during the GDA outbreaks and when I did scrape the glass I would see my overgrown jungle waiting for a trim. Didnt slow the algae growth. 

As we've seen with other types of algae, there are certain predictable water parameters that bring on certain types of algae. In my tank, if I let Nitrate drop below 5, I know I am going to start seeing BGA. No other types of algae appear. So, according to the plant growth focus, my plants must be growing more slowly and allowing algae to take hold - but why only BGA? Why dont they all come on at once at this point?

To me, this supports very strongly the idea that, while healthy plant growth may inhibit algae, it cannot stop all types of algae. Also, there are certain nutrient threshholds that must be met for the ever present algae spores in our tanks to bloom into visible algae. 

I know that plants dont know math and ratios are laughed at, but we do know that certain excesses of nutrients in the water column create plant deficiencies for other nutrients, even if the other nutrients are present in the water column. How then is it unreasonable then to think that certain levels of a nutrient in the water, relative to another nutrient would INHIBIT ALGAE GROWTH (not increase plant growth, inhibit algae growth - big difference)?

Going one step further, how then would it be unreasonable to assume that a 'complex' relationship could exist that inhibits GDA? Meaning, that GDA will not bloom unless there is an excess of Ca vs Mg OR an excess of N to P? In this case, changing and monitoring one variable at a time may never lead you to the result you want. Ie if your N and P ratio is put of whack and you are just adding Mg, you could get your Ca:Mg ratio inline, but becuase your N ratio is still of whack, your GDA does not go away. You declare your Mg theory debunked and go on to test N and your Ca:Mg drifts back to out of whack. You get your N ratio right, but stil GDA becuase you're no longer considering Ca:Mg. 

More complicated still would be some combination of absolute minimum level and ratio (ie Ca:Mg must be no more than 3:1, N ratio at least 10:1, Ca no higher than 40ppm, and P no higher than .25 ppm in order to prevent GDA bloom, for example).


Solution is to change and track multiple parameters through multiple ranges and see when you get GDA (maybe more even than just Ca, Mg, P, and N - I suggest these only because the MCI author proposed them based on his experience and they are the two i monitored and changed to eleviate my problem - could be more involved and i just got lucky). I suggest the reason we've not as a hobby solved this one while other algaes are more easily controlled is exactly becuase of some kind of complex relationship between the parameters that cause it. 


Aside from somone taking a few weeks, and tracking all parameters through all ranges in a few quarantine tanks, we'll probably need to keep tinkering and collectively building a model. But one paramater at a time may not be the answer and focusing on strong plant growth as opposed to algae inhibition will only miss the mark.


----------



## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

Or maybe it's the impurities in the epsom salts and not the Mg.


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

fresh.salty said:


> Or maybe it's the impurities in the epsom salts and not the Mg.


What does this mean?


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> I've _never once stated that it was_ and have routinely stated that no method will meet every goal.
> 
> You stated the obvious and there's no conflict or dispute there.
> 
> I do not use EI on most of my own aquariums or even CO2, some I do. But even there it's modified.


Interesting. Off topic, but what do you use, Tom if not EI? And also, how far can you modify the EI method before it is no longer the EI method? Seems to me if you keep modifying something long enough, it is an entirely different animal. I'm curious on this. I see people saying they are doing the modified EI approach, but it just seems like other than just estimating, they aren't really following most of the guidelines and still crediting the success to the EI method. (Does this make sense to anyone or am I rambling again?)

However, since I do have GDA on my tank upstairs and do not use the EI method anymore due to shear laziness, I like the idea of trying Mg since it works well for me in my 55 gallon. I'll add Mg to the tank at the rates you suggest and report back. If it is truly Mg, it should be independent of all other variables, correct? 

I always like to experiment even when I don't know what I am doing. :icon_smil So please explain further if I am misunderstanding anything before I get started.


----------



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> GSA has a couple of variables, if the CO2 is good, then low PO4, if the PO4 is high, then poor CO2. So even high PO4 will not rule out GSA. I get it if the CO2 is poor, even with high PO4 dosing. PO4 is easier to rule out than CO2, which is arguably the most difficult and most lethal.
> 
> So from there, nutrients are managed easily, then light is measured, then this leaves CO2 as the single variable.
> 
> Much easier to figure out this way.


 
hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I think GDA is a good indicator of a healthy environment as I always have great plant growth and coloration when I have GDA. Seems like that's the general consensus too. I don't really have any issues with GDA because in the whole scheme of all things algae it is by far the easiest one to deal with and would be my choice if I had to have one algae to deal with since it doesn't really effect the health of the plants in the tank. 

I just think that collectively we might be able to put our heads together and find a singular point that we all have in out tanks with GDA and perhaps find the one (if mot more) main contributing factors to this problem

I purchased a bag of Epsom Salt from Walmart yesterday and according to Wet's calc dosed right around 8ppm to the tank by putting 3/8's tsp in the tank. 

How often should I be dosing the salt? Every day (not likely), on Macro days (seems possible) or once a week?>


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

PPS-Pro doses right with the macros. I would assume this is the same for EI.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Any idea on how often I should be dosing the salt?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

chad320 said:


> What does this mean?


No clue WTH..........MgSO4 is food grade, not an issue.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

darkoon said:


> hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.


Then attack and kill the algae, do water changes, provide good CO2, dosign etc.

This is not some impossible to replicate thing.
Most folks just overlook things, make assumptions(like their CO2 is perfect cough cough cough........), do not tend their tank as much as they need when there's an issue.

Once the tank is running stable and nice, it can handle a fair amount of abuse. 

You are not going to do as well if you are sick etc.
You are not dead etc, but you are not optimal either.
If you start off healthy, you can handle a lot more abuse.

Same type of thing here.

Do we compare all these various levels and types of diseases/sickness or do we compare a healthy tank to start with????

The answer is rather obvious.

Only then can you do much testing, and even there, it might not be the least bit correct


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

darkoon said:


> hmm... interesting enough though, my 10g where i don't have GSA, and I don't add additional PO4 to whatever is already availble in the tap water, does not have good CO2, I know this because I also have BBA, as well as my 4dKh drop check is only light green, whereas my 72G where I alwasy have GSA, i should have prenty of CO2, because I don't have any sign of BBA, and drop check is always yellow.


Not to beat a dead horse or derail but no BBA doesnt mean you have good Co2. Or having BBA doesnt mean you dont have enough Co2. I have tanks of both. BBA/yellow checker, and no Co2 at all and no BBA. Just so thats clear for the newer folks looking into this thread. Since were trying to bust some myths and all


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DMtankd said:


> Makes sense if you focus only on plant growth - as I know you propose. Mg could be limiting plant growth and giving GDA a foothold, I think the arguement goes. However, my plants always grew incredibly well during the GDA outbreaks and when I did scrape the glass I would see my overgrown jungle waiting for a trim. Didnt slow the algae growth.


Does not imply that there's a slight Mg limitation or not.

Plants still grow with various levels of limitations with all sorts of nutrients..........



> As we've seen with other types of algae, there are certain predictable water parameters that bring on certain types of algae. In my tank, if I let Nitrate drop below 5, I know I am going to start seeing BGA. No other types of algae appear. So, according to the plant growth focus, my plants must be growing more slowly and allowing algae to take hold - but why only BGA? Why dont they all come on at once at this point?


Why do we have more than one singe species of algae?



> To me, this supports very strongly the idea that, while healthy plant growth may inhibit algae, it cannot stop all types of algae. Also, there are certain nutrient threshholds that must be met for the ever present algae spores in our tanks to bloom into visible algae.


The nutrient centric thing has taken more and more folks down this path to myths than I care to count or recall over the years. FEW hobbyists have done good testing or research here. I'm none too confident.



> I know that plants dont know math and ratios are laughed at, but we do know that certain excesses of nutrients in the water column create plant deficiencies for other nutrients,


We do not know this. Name one.......that is the range we might see/experience in an aquarium.

I know of none. It is not like I have never looked either.



> even if the other nutrients are present in the water column. How then is it unreasonable then to think that certain levels of a nutrient in the water, relative to another nutrient would INHIBIT ALGAE GROWTH (not increase plant growth, inhibit algae growth - big difference)?


Errr..........cause it's easy to test a ratio and it is ALSO easy to test individual concentrations, and vary ratios all the place, but well beyond potentially limiting concentrations?

Been here, done this.
Refer back to Liebig.
Basic stuff, you are falling into the trap of wishful thinking here, not basic plant science/horticulture.



> Going one step further, how then would it be unreasonable to assume that a 'complex' relationship could exist that inhibits GDA?


See above.........no need to keep pushing for complexity when the basics are not understood or addressed, go for the low picked fruit 1st........then maybe...........once mastered, then folks can try to test the more complex relationships.

Generally by then, their level of horticulture is sufficient not to worry much about algae.roud:

I'm curious myself, even if it does not present an issue for me. I like algae.



> Meaning, that GDA will not bloom unless there is an excess of Ca vs Mg OR an excess of N to P?


This sounds like mumbo that some folks believe and I have found zero evidence for support, both research and the aquarium settings with a control reference tank.

None.

You need to the control tank to see. No control, no test.
It's that simple, there has to be verification.



> In this case, changing and monitoring one variable at a time may never lead you to the result you want. Ie if your N and P ratio is put of whack and you are just adding Mg, you could get your Ca:Mg ratio inline, but becuase your N ratio is still of whack, your GDA does not go away. You declare your Mg theory debunked and go on to test N and your Ca:Mg drifts back to out of whack. You get your N ratio right, but stil GDA becuase you're no longer considering Ca:Mg.


Could be, but how do you plan to show this and back it up for each and every case?

I've gone all over the board with Ca/Mg and with NP ratios.

Mostly to illustrate that they are meaningless
Liebig showed this as well. I'm not going against that. 

I just suspected Mg since it's one of those more forgetful neglected nutrients/folks rarely test etc, make assumptions about.



> More complicated still would be some combination of absolute minimum level and ratio (ie Ca:Mg must be no more than 3:1, N ratio at least 10:1, Ca no higher than 40ppm, and P no higher than .25 ppm in order to prevent GDA bloom, for example).


My Ca was 80ppm and my PO4 was 20X this, no issues.
Inoculated many times.
No GDA.

Likewise, I had 12ppm Ca and PO4 at 6=9ppm and no GDA.
Ratios?
How about 1:1 ratio for Ca:Mg?
Nothing
How about 20:1 Ca:Mg?
Nothing

I did not try limiting Mg strongly over time.

This stuff might take 8 weeks........or maybe only a few days to germinate. 
It might be more with light and CO2.........

I do not believe the ratio baloney, I just have never found a hill of beans worth of evidence for support.

Light/CO2, definitely.
Limitation, certainly.........

Ratios?
Possible sure, evidence or test? None yet.



> Solution is to change and track multiple parameters through multiple ranges and see when you get GDA (maybe more even than just Ca, Mg, P, and N - I suggest these only because the MCI author proposed them based on his experience and they are the two i monitored and changed to eleviate my problem - could be more involved and i just got lucky). I suggest the reason we've not as a hobby solved this one while other algaes are more easily controlled is exactly becuase of some kind of complex relationship between the parameters that cause it.
> 
> 
> > That guy is nut.
> ...


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So Tom, how about letting me know when I should dose this salt. Thus far I have only dosed it once.


----------



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Juat my opinion on dosing Mg, but since it's one of the main constituents in GH boosters which are usually dosed weekly with a water change I would think it would be dosed once per week.


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Use 3 times a week when you dose micro or macro...use the calculator provided by Tom. Divide total quantity by 3 or 2 if you want that way...I do 3X easy to remember...you all set...you will notice change in a week or 2...


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> So Tom, how about letting me know when I should dose this salt. Thus far I have only dosed it once.


I'd mix with the trace after wards, but for now, I'd dose 2-3x a week.

the other thing, recovery sometimes can take 1-3 weeks till the plants bounce back. So called, plant growth "momentum". Once that is going well, then few algae are ever an issue, GDA as well.

So water changes, good CO2, tweak that some, dose Mg etc......and the other things you have been........


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Joraan said:


> Use 3 times a week when you dose micro or macro...use the calculator provided by Tom. Divide total quantity by 3 or 2 if you want that way...I do 3X easy to remember...you all set...you will notice change in a week or 2...


+1 
Whoops, did not see this......

Yes, many expect immediate responses........I think 3 weeks is often the time frame where for most herb like weeds, we should see responses.

I wonder if the GH booster recipe might be revised some if there's more to it.
The other thing is to add MgSO4 to the Trace mixes........like PMDD suggested.

It maybe that stem filled tanks are more needy in terms of Mg.
Or.........Mg might have nothing to do with it.

The only way to really know, if to be able to consistently induce and grow, germinate GDA........otherwise, there's no reference. Since no one(at least yet) can do this, it shall remain speculation, even if Mg fixes anyone's issues with algae. Still, by focusing on plant health generally.........this improves the aquarist abilities and rules potential issues out. 

Then algae has a harder time. Nice well done aquariums without algae can be done for many years and maintained. There is no special nutrient trick, it is all about the plants.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well its been long over three weeks and im still having to use the mag float/sink scrubbie (my favorite algae dispatcher) about every 3 days or my tank is all green on the glass. Im also experiencing lots of GDA on older leaves of my polygonum (say 3-4 leaves from the top) and also on my L.Glandulosa x paulaustris (sp?) at about the same rate. 

Also (Tom) I have cranked up co2 as high as my discus will allow me to, the other day when I got home from work they were pretty much floating at the surface, whoops. 

So, is GDA just a response to having high light (remember I Have 96w of t5ho on legs over a 23" tall 37g) or is something still missing?


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Is it possible it is Cyanobacteria or another bacteria? I had the exact same problem, I tried the Mg, didn't work, tried limiting light, ferts, upping co2, increasing oxygen, flow. Nothing helped. I confirmed it was almost entirely bacteria and not algae through microscopic observation. Within one treatment and a cleaning, it was eradicated it with erythromycin.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I guess it could be possible but I thought cyano was caused by low N. Which I don't have for sure. Enlighten me please Sara.


----------



## Sharkfood (May 2, 2010)

I have a grow out tank (no fauna) where I have overdosed CO2 (In as much as it would kill any fauna) and almost immediately grew the thickest, healthiest GDA I have ever seen. I don't think upping CO2 will do much for this particular algae. It has gone away since then with no intervention on my part , but I do dose extra Mg in all my tanks. 

Pond snails eat it, but not fast enough to control it in that particular case.

It's unfortunate that I have been traveling so much lately, as I would love to try keeping the CO2 up in 2 tanks and dosing one only with extra magnesium. I just haven't been around enough to play with my plants the last few months.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Well, not all cyanobacteria is caused by low nitrates. This is actually a myth. They are able to produce their own food, even. Others, however love nitrates, and I am not talking marine, I'm talking freshwater. There are several types of cyano, and I think many think of the Anabaena sp when they think low nitrates = cyanobacteria. So the best method when all else fails is to attack it.

Here are a few nice, basic articles that explains why they can live in nitrogen depleted environments and how they live. :

http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/cyanobacteria.aspx

http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanolh.html

http://academics.smcvt.edu/dfacey/AquaticBiology/Freshwater Pages/Cyanobacteria.html

The higher your co2 is irrelevant as BGA can actually thrive quite well in these environments. Adding nutrients are pointless to get rid of it unless you know what it is. Some diatoms and green algae do not like higher levels of nitrates and phosphates, so this can explain why some GDA is cured with nutrients, but doesn't account for other issues. Whether or not we want to buy into it, algae/bacteria is indeed fed by nutrients, it can compound the issue. And some cyanobacteria is tougher than others. 

Here are some pictures of the kinds you can have: http://www.ohio.edu/plantbio/vislab/algaeimage/Cyanobacteria.htm


How do I know it was mostly cyano? I took scrapings and put it under my microscope and snapped pictures. Then I researched it. I am lucky enough to have a local college branch that actually is quite excited about algae and has done a lot of research. 

Here are the two different types I had scraped off my glass:



















And here is what it looked like:


















And after treatment:

















As a bonus, it also got rid of my white film (iron bacteria)


















I still have some diatoms and green algae (photoplankton) on parts (right bottom corner), but 98% of the glass is now free of this plague once told to me was GDA.

So for your first step I'd suggest would be to diagnose what you actually have and go from there. Different algae/microscopic bacteria or animal life means different treatments. Do you have access to a microscope? I am perfectly willing to look at it for you and snap pictures if you like if you want to send it to me. Just ask Cardinal Tetra what he thinks of his brown gunk. :hihi:

It is my thought that a many of the algae problems encountered can actually be bacterial infestations. And if you really like, I could load you up with a ton of research and pictures and articles to back this up. Once I stopped just buying into increasing co2 and adding nutrients will fix all your problems, I was much more successful in getting rid of my problems.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

It's a deal! How do you want me to harvest the specimens for you Sara?


----------



## firefiend (Sep 3, 2009)

Did you mention what your treatment was? I think I missed it.

EDIT: My Bad... erythro. 

Interesting read!


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I haven't used any meds yet as I have never used ANY meds in my tanks and I'm not wanting to start now. But if Scientist Sara can test and tell me I have Cyano then I'll dose it in a heartbeat!


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I'm really starting to believe that this algae is actually bacteria. I was just trimming some plants and noticed how the stuff on the leaves smells pretty much what I remember BGA smelling like the one time I had it years ago. It's also very slimy too.

I just packed up a stem that has it on the leaves and also a few Sao Paulo leaves that have it for Sara. I'm going to look over the messages she sent so I can extract a few more specimen for her.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Interesting.

I've been trying to eradicate GDA for a long time now. Tried the "don't touch for three weeks" method, added Mg, more CO2, less light etc. etc.

Nothing works.

I'm also no fan of adding antibiotics to my tank, but if this is a working remedy, I will also try.

regards,
dutchy


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

If you scrape it and your shrimp will eat it, its GDa. If not its bacteria.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Does yours smell strange/bad dutchy?

Chad, I don't have shrimp in this tank.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

I don't know, I will check. Also don't have shrimp either, but my SAE's and Oto's like to nibble on it.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

GDA is not a bacteria/BGA though.

That said, there may be indirect relationships with BGA or bacteria, I'd buy that. At least I have no good reason to doubt it.

Add some AB and see. 

Does not hurt to try.

Let me ask you this though, how come a 3 day blackout gets rid of BGA, but not GDA?

What does a zoospore stage of GDA look like?


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> GDA is not a bacteria/BGA though.
> 
> That said, there may be indirect relationships with BGA or bacteria, I'd buy that. At least I have no good reason to doubt it.
> 
> ...



I first thought that the issue was GDA. But now after trying all of these remedies and still having the issue I'm starting to change my mind. 

What is the antibiotic that I could dose if this was indeed a bacterial issue?


----------



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

bsmith said:


> I first thought that the issue was GDA. But now after trying all of these remedies and still having the issue I'm starting to change my mind.
> 
> What is the antibiotic that I could dose if this was indeed a bacterial issue?


Erythromycin usually takes care of BGA. It's the active ingredient in Maracyn. If you use it, it might not be a bad idea to follow up with something like Stability or SafeStart to get your biofilter back in shape quickly. Not that I have any experience with either but it sounds like a good idea .


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Yeah just left a LFS and got some straight Erythromycin. Ten packets that treat 10g each. When I get home I'm going to dose. I'm also going to rake some before/after/progress pics during treTment.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Here are the pics before treatment.


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Lets see pixl after treatment~


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

They dont look like much but the important thing I have noticed is that the algae/cyano on the front glass is not coming back. Also, it has been confermed by Sara's scientist friends that indeed I do have Cyanobacteria in the tank. Along with a lot of Chlorophyta type algae (I really dont know what this is/means) and also Iron bacteria. So after I figure out what Chlorophyta algae is and what do do about that I also can slow down on the Fe dosing. Hopefully Sara will post up her .02 about the findings from my tank and make some sense of it. 

So here are the pics. Nothing too exciting. 










































Hopefully after I clean the tank of all the "green stuff" it wont come back.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

After being tired of looking at all the algae/cyano on the glass I decided to clean all of it off and do a WC. After I did the 50% WC I dosed for 40g with the erythro and started looking at the plants after the filter had cleared most of the particulates from the water. 

Here is a very exciting and promising observation I made. I'm not sure if everyone knows exactly what Cyanobacteria does in a tank but pretty much it boils down to it sucking all the available N from the tank. now I don't know exactly how long I have been dealing with this exact strain but from the pics below you will see that all of the new growth from approximately 3-4 days ago looks much different than the previous growth. It looks healthy and vibrant, the way it should look in a nutrient rich environment with bright lighting!


















Here are the shots of the new growth from the faster growers in the tank. 

Syngonanthus Madiera









Tonina 'narow leaf'









Polygonum 'Sao Paulo'









So here is what I am thinking happened... The Cyano started up and sucked all the N from my tank. I then started seeing GDA and cranked up the co2 which in a N starved environment only made that issue worse. Well see what happens over the next few days. I plan to continue the Erythro dosing for 4 more days just to make sure its all dead.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Here some pictures.









































































Unless otherwise noted, these are taken with a 40x objective and the camera is 15x, so basically, this is at 600x magnification. I will point out, that I can't remember about the last picture. I think it was a 10x objective.

Some cyanobacteria indeed, others is green algae referred to as "Protists" or "Chlorophyta", Euglena, Gallionella sp and sulfur bacteria. Basically, lots of green algae mixed with some bacterias. I believe the EM will help, but I also believe a few other methods are needed to control this algae, especially since some of these will live without light for long periods of time and adore co2 and iron rich environments as stated in many articles. 

Magnesium as a killer for zoospores and other types of algae has been suggested for years in our sister hobby, the marine systems (a basic article, but shows this approach back in 2008): http://www.suite101.com/content/bryopsis-a-common-pest-in-aquaria-a51078#ixzz1Te8CWjXA It's still controversial as is much in this hobby.

Speaking of controversial, here are some fascinating topics on iron, co2 and it's role in increasing photoplankton. These studies have been done by people _way smarter than me_ (i.e. Nasa): http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/story.asp?storyCode=205134&sectioncode=26

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Iron_fertilization

http://debatepedia.idebate.org/en/i...gineering,_iron_fertilization_of_algae_blooms

A snipet for those who don't want to read it all: "_Iron fertilization is the intentional introduction of iron to the upper ocean to increase the marine food chain and to sequester carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. It involves encouraging the growth of marine phytoplankton blooms by physically distributing microscopic iron particles in otherwise nutrient-rich, but iron-deficient blue ocean waters. An increasing number of ocean labs, scientists and businesses are exploring it as a means to revive declining plankton populations, restore healthy levels of marine productivity and/or sequester millions of tons of CO2 to slow down global warming."_

and here is an interesting study on p uptake and growth in desmids (a form of algae that is most likely present in bsmith's tank, not 100% as I am not an expert, but some of the main algae looks a lot like closterium and cosmarium sp. of green algae):

http://www.gappie.nl/elly/proefsch/H3.html

Basically, I could give my opinion on this and would gladly, but I am not looking to push any of my methods on people or to argue them with those who are never wrong (we all know this type). After all, _I have no agenda/vested interest_, and only than a fascination with algae and to help bsmith with his issue. I have a different viewpoint on how algae interacts with co2, oxygen (critical to have good oxygen) lighting and nutrients than many on this forum based on hardcore research from people that have many years of experience and degrees way beyond my comprehension. 

So instead, I'll simply provide the pretty pictures and articles let you all debate the matter. :icon_cool

Bsmith, good luck and keep us posted. I'd strongly suggest cleaning out that filter of yours and even putting in some polyfilter for a few days to trap some of the gunk and then pitch it.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Interesting. I think I wil buy myself a microscope. 

I'm still hoping to see a result on the GDA.


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

sewingalot said:


> I am not looking to push any of my methods on people or to argue them with those who are never wrong (we all know this type)


:wink:

Interesting write up Sara. As you suggested to put polyfilter...that is what I use in all my filter nothing else at all. If you guys remember I started the thread few months back..
this is 1 Another threads I can't find. 
As a friend was having problem with his tank covered with BGA..which we treated with H202 with out any success: at last we used Erythro and every single algae that is visible to human eyes vanished..now crystal clear...even looks drinkable water from tank....He puts 1 tab of Erythro with every water change. 

so going back to the topic, as I asked the question in above link where pple didn't comment, just out of curiosity I took some Wisteria from his tank to put in my low maintenance guppy tank:with in 2 days I started to get BGA...
Removed immediately and did Erythro dosing to clear the bacteria. So in my observation chances to get BGA from another hobbyist as well when we SnS.
Thinking to get PP dip powder just to make sure I won't infect my main tank...just a thought.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Not a bad idea joraan but man what a pitb if you were getting a lot of plants in. I'm sure though that you could get it from another member but I think the conditions still need to be present. 

One thing I don't know about BGA is weather the algae appears when N is low or since it affixes N that is just gobbles it up so fast that the BGA is the cause of the low N instead of it being the trigger?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There's some BGA in a mixture of algae? Who knew......come on........there are a number of algae in any sample from a planted tank, even ones where you cannot see any macroscopic evidence. Diatoms are almost univesrally present on leaves. 

If you look hard enough, you will find BGA in pretty much any plant tank, macroscopic is quite another matter or where it's becoming an issue.

See the rods in the 1st pic?

And the 2 hemispheres?

Folks should be able to ID those.
One is the PITA, the other has never been an issue I am aware of.


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

PP dip powder-which will be used with water, I think can be used for months if stored in cool dark place...so no matter whatever amount of plants you get within a month or so. I ain't plant expert or chemical freak.. but I would say it appears cause of low N and later BGA becomes the cause of low N..all this coming from a good reading from different sites..

Also I recently read a post by :150E...something (can' remember his screen name) that he got rid of BGA with adding waver maker pushing more flow in the tank....which I doubt if thats will take care of bacteria...

Correct me if I am wrong...


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> There's some BGA in a mixture of algae? Who knew......come on........there are a number of algae in any sample from a planted tank, even ones where you cannot see any macroscopic evidence. Diatoms are almost univesrally present on leaves.
> 
> If you look hard enough, you will find BGA in pretty much any plant tank, macroscopic is quite another matter or where it's becoming an issue.
> 
> ...


I think that the erythro has killed the majority of cyano in the system and now N in the tank is becoming available to the plants. My polygonum new growth has not looked the way it currently does since this all started. No matter how much co2 I pump into the tank if the essential nutrients aren't available to the plants all I was doing was steroid injecting the algae and BGA. 



Joraan said:


> PP dip powder-which will be used with water, I think can be used for months if stored in cool dark place...so no matter whatever amount of plants you get within a month or so. I ain't plant expert or chemical freak.. but I would say it appears cause of low N and later BGA becomes the cause of low N..all this coming from a good reading from different sites..
> 
> Also I recently read a post by :150E...something (can' remember his screen name) that he got rid of BGA with adding waver maker pushing more flow in the tank....which I doubt if thats will take care of bacteria...
> 
> Correct me if I am wrong...


I thought tat comment about adding flow and eliminating BGA was suspect as well. But I didn't feel that starting a side discussion about that was appropriate at the time.


----------



## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

bsmith said:


> One thing I don't know about BGA is weather the algae appears when N is low or since it affixes N that is just gobbles it up so fast that the BGA is the cause of the low N instead of it being the trigger?


 
This is what I would like to know. I have had an outbreak of BGA recently and I'm dosing 2x what I would normally dose of N and it seems to get worse the more I dose. I have had BGA almost at this same time a year ago. I think that several factors play into BGA appearing. I know my tank gets some indirect sunlight in the evening this time of year and it always seems to start in the same place along the substrate on one side. Last time I dosed Maracyn as per directions and it disappeared until just recently when it reappeared. My dosing regimen hasn't changed and the tank equipment is the same. So I have heard low N, too much light, and poor flow is when BGA apppears. So why if nothing in my tank changes does this appear at exactly this time of year? It never appears in my tank in the winter time. Maybe my tank temp. is a little higher this time of year? Maybe the indirect sunlight that it gets this time of year is a trigger.
This stuff drives me nuts and while I know Maracyn will rid this I really wish I knew what triggered it to appear.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Little bit of light reading on http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty/webb/BOT311/Cyanobacteria/Cyanobacteria.htm

The Heterocysts is the nitrate fixators (is that a word fixators?). 

A nice article titled "Nitrate and Phosphate Affect Cultivability of Cyanobacteria from Environments with Low Nutrient Levels"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1151820/

And since you guys asked about cyanobacteria and nitrate removal:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/66/1/133.pdf

It should be noted many of the green algaes/protists found in bsmiths tank are symbiotic with some types of cyanobacteria. There is a ton of research on this topic. I'm honestly surprised that this isn't well known in the planted tank community. 

http://www.mendeley.com/research/photosynthetic-nitrate-assimilation-in-cyanobacteria/

Want more articles? I have tons. But you'll have to pm me for anything else as I am not finding myself very helpful to this topic.

And Joraan, you can absolutely get BGA from another person's tank via plants. What's causing me problems is the fact it's in our water supply and this time of year (higher temperatures, longer days) makes it more difficult. (Oh, and I consider filter floss poor man's UV, lol)

In short, I think Bsmith's idea is valid and perhaps even spot on. Only time will tell at this point.

Gracefully bowing out of this discussion from this point forward. Keep us informed, bsmith.


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

ua hua said:


> This is what I would like to know. I have had an outbreak of BGA recently and I'm dosing 2x what I would normally dose of N and it seems to get worse the more I dose. I have had BGA almost at this same time a year ago. I think that several factors play into BGA appearing. I know my tank gets some indirect sunlight in the evening this time of year and it always seems to start in the same place along the substrate on one side. Last time I dosed Maracyn as per directions and it disappeared until just recently when it reappeared. My dosing regimen hasn't changed and the tank equipment is the same. So I have heard low N, too much light, and poor flow is when BGA apppears. So why if nothing in my tank changes does this appear at exactly this time of year? It never appears in my tank in the winter time. Maybe my tank temp. is a little higher this time of year? Maybe the indirect sunlight that it gets this time of year is a trigger.
> This stuff drives me nuts and while I know Maracyn will rid this I really wish I knew what triggered it to appear.


I have to agree that ambient room lighting has a bigger effect than its given credit for. In tanks around the room my GDA grows best on sides that either have broken sunlight (from blinds) or ones that are facing another tank. Just something to consider.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

This discussion seems to have changed to BGA.......


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dutchy said:


> This discussion seems to have changed to BGA.......


Yep.
:thumbdown:


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well through the course it has been proven that BGA/cyanobacteria also has a role in my specific issue. Now that the N in the tank can properly be utilized by the plants (hopefully because the cyano has been killed) there will be no more GDA. 

It's all related. The GDA was caused because Cyano was gobbling up all the available N in the tank. So GDA was winning the nutrient battle with the plants.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Perhaps this will help explain the discussion turn, dutchy. Bsmith's tank has both cyanobacteria *and *other algaes. The first set of pictures, I posted to show that it is both, BGA and GDA. My thought is this explains why his issue may be more complex than just wait 3 weeks scrap it off or add Mg. It would also explain why all other methods he has tried isn't working. Maybe you want to see more BGA pictures present in his tank, not just the boring Chroococcus and Gleocapsa species? Many are better able to recognize this type, I might add:




































And proof of this being bga:
http://www.ohio.edu/plantbio/vislab/algaeimage/Cyanobacteria.htm

The goal of this thread to help bsmith cure his on going issue with _green stuff_ growing on his tank walls/plants and not be concerned about what direction it takes or what it is called. He posted this thread to get to the bottom of his problem I'm assuming. I am simply giving an alternate method, which I already said might be controversial. And it is entirely possible I am incorrect and completely and totally wrong (just to be redundant). 

Pretty much, I believe this "green stuff" is doing what he says, eating the nutrients faster than the plants can. There is a lot of research on this subject, and I provided you all with many of these links to decide for yourself.

However, this is all irrelevant. What is important is getting bsmith's tank back on track. roud:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I also have BGA in my tanks, but it's not present at the macroscopic or at the nuisance level.

This point has been lost here in the discussion.

GDA is the focus here, the other tag along species(if you look, you should find some Diatoms) while interesting, are not really that much of an issue for the OP.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> I also have BGA in my tanks, but it's not present at the macroscopic or at the nuisance level.
> 
> This point has been lost here in the discussion.
> 
> GDA is the focus here, the other tag along species(if you look, you should find some Diatoms) while interesting, are not really that much of an issue for the OP.


So you feel that the BGA starving this tank of N has no bearing on the development of the GDA that was all over the place?


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

If that hypothesis was true all tanks with enough N would be free of GDA. That's not true I'm afraid....


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The N is not the cause of the GDA directly though. It's that the BGA is taking all of the N out of the water and my plants cannot compete with the algae since they are N deficient. Then the GDA starts to take over.


----------



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

bsmith said:


> The N is not the cause of the GDA directly though. It's that the BGA is taking all of the N out of the water and my plants cannot compete with the algae since they are N deficient. Then the GDA starts to take over.


did you test to see how much N was in the tank?


----------



## Elliot (Oct 3, 2010)

Sorry to get off topic, but I've been pondering on how to get rid of the algae in my 10 gal tank. I think it is a mix of Green Dot, Green dust, BGA and some thing like BGA but stringy. I decided to lower the flow output from my Ehiem 2213 that I was running full blast (i know thats a lot for a 10), but it seems to have helped because areas of algae are starting to turn black and I've noticed a significant decrease in algae growth. Sorry if I just repeated somebody else's suggestion or you have already tried this; I just didn't feel like reading through the entire thread.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

This is for those actually interested, there is a symbiotic relationship and this has been known for a long time. Read this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1853082/ 

In particular:

"Symbioses of nitrogen fixing bacteria with protists
Symbioses of bacteria with unicellular eukaryotes are exceptional as they involve the whole host rather than specialised parts of the host organism. Also these intracellular symbionts require a high degree of regulation and adaptation to maintain the mutualistic relationship. This feature, in conjunction with vertical transmission, suggests that co-evolution and dependence of partners is sufficiently advanced to regard the relationship as unification of two single organisms. The mitochondria and plastids of recent eukaryotes are extreme examples of this kind of association [89,90]. Cyanobacteria have also been detected in intracellular association with an euglenoid flagellate [91], heterotrophic dinoflagellates [92-94], a filose amoeba [95], diatoms [96,97] and, extracellularly, with some protists, e.g. diatoms [98]. Only rarely has the nitrogen fixing activity of the prokaryotic partner been demonstrated in these symbioses (e.g. [99]). In the next paragraph the range of symbiotic associations between cyanobacteria and protists is described in a progression of interactions from temporary to permanent. As such, these symbioses provide an opportunity to investigate the cellular changes that may accompany the evolutionary transition from extracellular symbiont to intracellular endosymbiont and cell organelle.
Petalomonas sphagnophila is an apoplastic euglenoid that harbours endosymbiotic Synechocystis species [91]. The cyanobacteria occur inside a perialgal vacuole and remain alive for several weeks, before they are metabolised, so that they must be regarded as temporary endosymbiotic cell inclusions. These intracellular cyanobacteria are thus reminiscent of kleptochloroplasts found in some heterotrophic dinoflagellates, marine snails, foraminifera and ciliates. These associations can be understood as a mechanism for the temporary separation of ingested and digested prey [92-94,100]. However, in all well-documented cases of kleptochloroplastic interactions, only the plastid or the plastid together with surrounding cell compartments (never the whole cell) is incorporated as a kleptochloroplast by the host. In contrast, the cyanobacteria of P. sphagmophila are not disintegrated during their internalisation by the euglenoid [91]. Symbiont integrity is therefore likely to be a prerequisite for the functioning of the cyanobacterial nitrogen fixing machinery. The enslaved cyanobacteria may also provide energy-rich C-compounds or, as suggested for other symbiotic interactions, vitamin B12 production to it host [101]. These hypotheses are yet to be investigated thoroughly.
Phaeosomes are symbionts found in some representatives of the order Dinophysiales. They exhibit morphological characteristics of Synechocystsis and Synechococcus cells and are located either extracellularly or intracellularly [94]. In the case of intracellular cells, the symbioses seem to be permanent and the benefit of the symbiosis to the host may be efficient nitrogen fixation. However, as in the case of P. sphagnophila, difficulties in cultivating these strains complicate molecular characterisation of the endosymbionts. At present this problem is limiting our understanding of the potential benefits of these prokaryote/eukaryote mergers. Some filamentous cyanobacteria are known to interact with diatoms. Extracellular epibionts, endosymbionts and also symbionts positioned in the periplasmic space between the cell wall and cell membrane of the diatom are known to occur [58,98]. Electron microscopy scanning of such interactions has demonstrated a dual symbiotic nature of some symbionts. E. g. Richelia intracellularis has been observed to interact either as an epibiont (with Chaetoceros spec.) or as endosymbiont (with Rhizosolenia clevei) [98]. In these examples, nitrogen fixation for the benefit of the host has been demonstrated by the cultivation of the symbiont-diatom association in the absence of an external fixed nitrogen source. Nitrogen fixation is also suggested from morphological features such as the presence of heterocysts. At least in tropical environments, the production of B12 vitamins may also be a further benefit for the host [101].
The cyanobacterial endosymbionts of the diatom Rhopalodia gibba
Some diatoms, including Climacodium frauenfeldianum and Rhopalodia gibba, are known to harbour permanent endosymbionts [96,97,102]. As indicated by EM investigations of R. gibba, these endosymbionts are intracellular and are transmitted vertically [102,103]. The endosymbionts, so-called spheroid bodies [96], are localised in the cytoplasm, and separated by a perialgal vacuole from the cytosol. Each spheroid body is surrounded by a double membrane. As additionally internal membranes are also visible, this morphotype is similar to that of cyanobacteria (Figure ​(Figure3b).3b). 16S rDNA sequences have been amplified from an environmental sample of C. frauenfeldianum [97] and from isolated spheroid bodies of R. gibba [102]. Phylogenetic analysis groups these sequences together with free-living cyanobacteria of the genus Cyanothece (Figure ​(Figure2).2). This robust grouping is also evidenced from phylogenetic analysis of a nitrogenase subunit gene, isolated from R. gibbas's spheroid body [102]. In phylogenetic reconstructions of both genes, the branch lengths separating free-living cyanobacteria and the cell inclusions of C. frauenfeldianum and R. gibba are very short, indicating that origins of the protist symbioses are relatively recent. This is unlike the situation for plastids and extant cyanobacteria, which have an ancient phylogenetic relationship. Cyanothece sp., the closest known free-living relatives of spheroid bodies and the endosymbiont of C. frauenfeldianum, are typical unicellular and diazotrophic cyanobacteria. To protect the nitrogenase from oxygen tension, Cyanothece show a strong physiological periodicity, restricting nitrogen-fixation exclusively to the dark period of growth [104]. During this period, the energy demand for N2 fixation is sustained by large amounts of photosynthetically derived carbohydrates, which are stored as starch particles. Nitrogen fixing activity of R. gibba was first indicated in the 1980s via acetylene reduction assays [99] and confirmed in latter studies [102]. Intracellular localisation of the enzymatic activity has been undertaken by scanning for protein subunits of nitrogenase [102]. Immunogold experiments have shown that the nitrogenase is localised within the diatom spheroid bodies, thereby confirming that the endosymbiont is responsible for the fixation of nitrogen. Furthermore, corresponding genes for the nitrogenase activity have also been isolated from purified spheroid bodies [102]. Interestingly, spheroid body nitrogen fixation in R. gibba is a strictly light dependent process. This might be the result of several adaptations to the endosymbiotic lifestyle. Spheroid bodies lack a characteristic cyanobacterial fluorescence based on photosynthetic pigments, indicating that they have lost photosynthetic activity and that energy for nitrogen fixation is supplied by the host cell. The protection of the nitrogenase enzyme complex is accomplished through the spatial separation of the two pathways, with N2 fixation in spheroid bodies and photosynthesis in the host plastid. The loss of photosynthetic activity of spheroid bodies is also expected to lead to the loss of autonomy resulting in an obligate endosymbiosis. This hypothesis is consistent with the observation that R. gibba cells are never observed without spheroid bodies and that cultivation of the endosymbionts outside the host cells has not been possible [102]. Definitive evidence is still required to determine the exact nature of symbiotic interaction and whether the spheroid body of R. gibba is an obligate endosymbiont, or perhaps even an unrecognised DNA-containing organelle.

Other Sections▼

Conclusion
The ability to fix molecular nitrogen is restricted to selected bacterial species that express the nitrogenase enzyme complex. Nevertheless, various eukaryotic organisms have utilised this capacity by establishing symbiotic interactions with nitrogen fixing bacteria. In these associations, fixed nitrogen is provided to the hosts, thereby enabling them to colonise environments where the supply of bound nitrogen is limited. In mutualistic symbioses, bacterial symbionts benefit from these associations, e.g. by protection against predators or by being provided with host metabolites. Symbioses for molecular nitrogen fixation can be found in many different habitats, with host organisms including all crown groups of eukaryotic life. Although all partnerships are based on the same enzymatic reaction, the diverse associations differ with respect to the physiological and morphological features that characterise the interconnection of partners. Such features include the development of special host organs for optimal performance of bacterial symbionts, adaptations in host and symbiont metabolism, and the intracellular establishment of bacteria within the host.
Close associations involving multiple adaptations and co-evolution between partners can result in permanent and obligate relationships, whereby the bacterial symbiont is stably integrated into the host system, and vertically transmitted across generations. These close interactions are mainly found in intracellular symbioses, where free-living bacteria reside within the cells of the host organism. These are similar to organelles of eukaryotes, such as mitochondria and plastids, which both derived from symbiotic interactions and where continuous adaptation and co-evolution lead to a fusion of two distinct organisms [3,4]. In both cases, the metabolic capacity of the bacterial symbiont was the driving force for maintenance and evolutionary establishment, resulting in an inseparable merger of host and symbiont. The same basis of interaction applies for molecular nitrogen fixation, where eukaryotic hosts benefit from the unique metabolic capacity of special bacteria, leading to various symbiotic interactions with different specifications. In particular, bacteria interacting with protists, like the spheroid bodies of R. gibba, might serve in the future as important model systems for investigating the establishment of molecular nitrogen fixation in eukaryotic hosts. The detailed study of this interaction will thus provide a great opportunity to understand the complex mechanisms underlying the evolution of obligate endosymbionts and organelles."

I'm so confused why some are deciding to dismiss years of research on this topic just because they are told to believe otherwise. It's a shame that people are being discouraged in trying to help one another.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

bsmith said:


> The N is not the cause of the GDA directly though. It's that the BGA is taking all of the N out of the water and my plants cannot compete with the algae since they are N deficient. Then the GDA starts to take over.


And this would mean that GDA is related to bad plant growth caused by N deficiency. Yet my tank has lots of N, great plant growth, but it also has GDA....


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

dutchy said:


> And this would mean that GDA is related to bad plant growth caused by N deficiency. Yet my tank has lots of N, great plant growth, but it also has GDA....


Likewise, I have juicy N and have inoculated with GDA many times, no bloom occurs.

I think it's tough argument based on the observations to suggest it's N related.
There's might be some very weak correlation, but not any that will help in terms of management.

Test using a control tank show no impact of any sort, and without a control to test against, the methods are too weak to conclude much of anything. 
This is the inherent failing for most hobbyists try to show cause with algae.

I can easily illustrate what does not cause an algae to bloom...but it's hard to say what does.......sometimes we get lucky...........but unless someone has a good method to induce the alga, GDA will remain elusive, unlike BGA, BBA, GSA, diatoms etc.

Some of the greens, like Cladophora and Rhizo are more pesky, I'd say Rhizo/Spirogyra is closer to GDA than most of the other species/Genera.
they tend to be higher light and poor CO2 issues.

Also a problem for many, adjustment of light levels, not an issue for you Dutchy, but for many here it is........I have suspension lighting, so an adjustment and fast quick measure is easy for me.

With several tanks and only 1 that ever got GDA..........I was easily able to rule out many possible causes............as the other tanks had the same dosing and ferts, the same or different sediments, same light intensity and slightly different durations......etc.

More light exacerbated the GDA.......this is to be expected............this suggest a downstream cause if we assume it's like the other algae before it.
CO2 or ferts.

But those are not informative either it seems.

Is it indirect two part thing with 2 different species? It'd be a first in the hobby, so I'm not likely to be anything but pretty skeptical, like allelopathy, it's possible, but I'd need some real good evidence and some even better methods to show it.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't think you guys are getting it. 

The lack of N from the BGA caused my plants to grow poorly and allowed the GDA to take hold. I never said anything about HIGH N.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sewingalot said:


> In mutualistic symbioses, bacterial symbionts benefit from these associations, e.g. by protection against predators or by being provided with host metabolites.
> I'm so confused why some are deciding to dismiss years of research on this topic just because they are told to believe otherwise. It's a shame that people are being discouraged in trying to help one another.


I'm not dismissing the above, the GDA is a zoospore stage that is free swimming, this is why you can wipe it off, only to have it reappear in 30-60 minutes, it's not regrowing that fast

No need for an association, whether one(an association between two species) or not exists with this species and say Oscillitoria, is not confirmed in the least by the mere presence is a scaping off a leaf or the glass. 

There's not a lot known about GDA.

You can keep a culture ans then take pics on the species over time, this is what many Phycologist have done, myself included and simply watch and see what it does, what stages it goes through etc.

You do get raccoon eyes from looking into the microscope however. A decent digital set up allows good pics and monitoring without that these days though. I have a nice scope at home here. I do little algae work these days, more after killing weeds, algae tend to be much easier to manage and control. I suppose I could try again and keep a different culturing method.

The algae GDA just has not done enough to piss me off enough to work at it.
It's a fickle one.

Still, I nor others are dismissing it, I'm just skeptical such an association does indeed exists beyond speculation alone. We can find many examples, but it needs to be specific to the pest on interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankistrodesmus

If you search the images, you will find, low and behold........the same as you see in the pics you took.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Anki...v&sa=X&ei=lo84TrKFGYXYiALyiKzzDg&ved=0CDcQsAQ

Which species? Heck, I'm not sure........not without DNA.......

Most of the papers are rather old, or looking at molecular evolution.
This one has some stuff about zoospore inhibition:

http://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.pp.19.060168.000513

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

bsmith said:


> I don't think you guys are getting it.
> 
> The lack of N from the BGA caused my plants to grow poorly and allowed the GDA to take hold. I never said anything about HIGH N.


Yes, I understand. But if you say that lack of N caused by BGA, makes GDA develop, This means:

1 GDA is caused by N deficiency
2 GDA is caused by bad plant growth

This hypothesis also means that:
1 GDA can't develop with sufficient N
2 GDA can't develop with good plant growth

While the last two are not true. I have the example right in front of me.

I'm not trying to make problems, I'd also like to get to the bottom of this. GDA is the only thing bothering me for years and I have tried numerous things to get rid of it, up to H2O2. The only thing I haven't tried are antibiotics or copper, but since these also hurt others, maybe I'd better keep cleaning the window twice a week. 

@sewinglot: thnx for your answers. very informative anyway.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So you don't believe that poor plant growth allows algae to be more prominent?


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Not with this particular type of algae. Just light and nutrients seem to be enough, irrespective of plant growth. Algae can still find N even when levels are undetectable to our test kits.

I've tried to limit every kind of nutrient independently, to no succes.

I hope Tom wants to make a test on this algae so even the worst cases can be helped. 

What I've tried:
UV
limit PO4
limit N
limit Fe
limit Ca
limit/excess Mg
don't touch for 3 weeks method
7,5 ppm H2O2 daily
more CO2 until fish limit
I have 2000 gph of flow
I didn't need to excess above nutrients since they are always present in excess. Most of the tests made my plants suffer, the GDA was always there.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

What is the difference between Tom Barr's tanks and most of the rest of us?

He doesn't even have to try to keep them GDA free. He has trouble even inoculating them with GDA.

Green thumb? Just has the gift and he instinctively or has knowledge from years of experience and does all the right things with out having to give it much effort or thought?

I grow nice plants, but I'm also growing GDA all over my slower growing plants and even some on the faster growing plants. If I cut back on the light to slow down the algae, my higher light plants start to get leggy.

I haven't been able to go fully high-tech yet, but I'll watch this thread closely to see something that might give me a clue to eventually have tanks like Tom's that don't require heroic efforts to grow relatively algae free healthy plants.

Otherwise, if it ceases to be fun, why continue doing it? I just want a beautiful tank with lush healthy plants and gorgeous healthy fish/shrimp/snails/etc.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Im not talking about GDA being present. Im talkng about it being so prominent that it actually causes a problem in the tank. 

What I can now say without question is that since I have eliminated the BGA my plants have started growing much more vigorously and now the GDA is not an issue at all or really even present. The ONLY thing I changed was that I killed the BGA. Its really hard not to make a correlation.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Also I have asked myself what is the difference between Tom's tank and mine. I know I'm using more light but when I used just 50 micromols at the substrate there was GDA. It just grew slower.

I know Tom's tanks are low on GH and KH and mine are higher. Further there's not much difference I think. Maybe it's something in the tap water. I even had it in a low light non CO2 tank.

My tank is not a hopeless case; I have to wipe once a week and it takes only 2 minutes. I don't have noticable growth of GDA on plants, or any other algae whatsoever.

I also have no problems to test things, so maybe Tom can suggest what's worth testing?


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

audioaficionado said:


> I'm also growing GDA all over my slower growing plants and even some on the faster growing plants.





bsmith said:


> Im not talking about GDA being present. Im talkng about it being so prominent that it actually causes a problem in the tank.
> 
> What I can now say without question is that since I have eliminated the BGA my plants have started growing much more vigorously and now the GDA is not an issue at all or really even present. The ONLY thing I changed was that I killed the BGA. Its really hard not to make a correlation.


The main dots on my Anubias barteri ''coffeefolia'' are the uncovered spots where the GDA isn't LOL. I suppose I could try some antibiotics and see what happens. I'm about $200 short of finishing up my full conversion to high-tech limitless CO2 & EI dosing. Need a 20# tank, Python & ferts.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Elliot said:


> Sorry to get off topic, but I've been pondering on how to get rid of the algae in my 10 gal tank. I think it is a mix of Green Dot, Green dust, BGA and some thing like BGA but stringy. I decided to lower the flow output from my Ehiem 2213 that I was running full blast (i know thats a lot for a 10), but it seems to have helped because areas of algae are starting to turn black and I've noticed a significant decrease in algae growth. Sorry if I just repeated somebody else's suggestion or you have already tried this; I just didn't feel like reading through the entire thread.





dutchy said:


> Also I have asked myself what is the difference between Tom's tank and mine. I know I'm using more light but when I used just 50 micromols at the substrate there was GDA. It just grew slower.
> 
> I know Tom's tanks are low on GH and KH and mine are higher. Further there's not much difference I think. Maybe it's something in the tap water. I even had it in a low light non CO2 tank.
> 
> ...


Mine was so bad I had to wipe it daily and it also covered the leaves of many plants. 



audioaficionado said:


> The main dots on my Anubias barteri ''coffeefolia'' are the uncovered spots where the GDA isn't LOL. I suppose I could try some antibiotics and see what happens. I'm about $200 short of finishing up my full conversion to high-tech limitless CO2 & EI dosing. Need a 20# tank, Python & ferts.


Are you maybe experiencing GSA? The talk of spots has me wondering.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Some of it is very tiny pin point spots when I first notice it and after some weeks it slowly grows together if I let it go. My otos work it as do my SAEs and Nerites, but they are only slowing it down. Maybe I have both types. Some of it is hard to scrape off the glass, but some of it isn't. 

Started out as brown diatoms and has slowly morphed to this:

Anubias barteri 'Nana' @ mid tank height 









My Anubias barteri ''coffeefolia'' is at the substrate level with less light, but is much worse and almost completely covered with the algae. See my 7-12 update sig link for FTS.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

That looks like GSA and usually rears it's ugly head when light is high. It has been indicated that low potassium or phosphates can make it more apparent but I don't believe this has been proven.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Probably you have both. GSA is a simple one. Boost PO4 levels up to around 2 ppm. After around two weeks the algae will stop developing on new leaves.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Well my Anubias with the lowest light levels has it the worst. My ''coffeefolia'' is also faster growing than my 'nana', but since it is several times larger, its sheer biomass could also account for that.

I'm hoping when I can max out the CO2 & column ferts (EI), I won't have to futz around with a bunch of test kits and this crap will just go back to a non issue for me.


----------



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

do you use the same substrate as Toms does? 



dutchy said:


> Also I have asked myself what is the difference between Tom's tank and mine. I know I'm using more light but when I used just 50 micromols at the substrate there was GDA. It just grew slower.
> 
> I know Tom's tanks are low on GH and KH and mine are higher. Further there's not much difference I think. Maybe it's something in the tap water. I even had it in a low light non CO2 tank.
> 
> ...


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

audioaficionado said:


> What is the difference between Tom Barr's tanks and most of the rest of us?
> 
> He doesn't even have to try to keep them GDA free. He has trouble even inoculating them with GDA.
> 
> Green thumb? Just has the gift and he instinctively or has knowledge from years of experience and does all the right things with out having to give it much effort or thought?


I honestly do not know.

I've speculated and I and others have tested, but nothing as of yet.

All I know it is a PITA to grow in my tanks. and I've only managed to get growing for 3-4 weeks in 2 tanks over the last 7-8 years or so.

FYI, it was never seen really until about 8-9 years ago.............it's the newest alga to infest our tanks.



> I haven't been able to go fully high-tech yet, but I'll watch this thread closely to see something that might give me a clue to eventually have tanks like Tom's that don't require heroic efforts to grow relatively algae free healthy plants.
> 
> Otherwise, if it ceases to be fun, why continue doing it? I just want a beautiful tank with lush healthy plants and gorgeous healthy fish/shrimp/snails/etc.


I honestly ignore algae, I'll scrape it, trim it off, spray a rock with excel etc.........clean filters etc......dose more of something, but I do not do anything special other than max the plants and use less light.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

darkoon said:


> do you use the same substrate as Toms does?


I use dolomite is 3 tanks, black flourite sand in another, ADA AS in 2 others.

Same results, the ADA AS tank was one of the tanks that had it briefly.
But..............the 180 Gal has never had any and I've had to inoculated it 100X with my arm and plant swaps and trims etc, if it's in one tank, it'd infect them all.

Most algae behave this way also.

So it's some trigger to germinate or sprout and maintain that state.

Green water is a bear to get rid of once you get it............but small inoculations are not a problem, the tank does not bloom, but once an algae commits......then it'll try and hang on for dear life.
Once you kill off the GW, then it's no longer a problem thereafter.
NH4 seemed to trigger that, Jobes sticks being pulled up as well. Well cycled and growing tanks, less light prevented this/

The concept about once you get in germinated and growing in the tank........likely applies here. What can you do to disturb this and not harm the plants?

Black outs, reduced lighting etc, wipe it a lot and run a micron filter, clean that often, bend the reflectors so they do not expose the to the glass panels.

Glass seems to be the preferred substrate for the GDA.......
I wonder if we placed some other rougher material/s and allows the alga to settle there for a few days and simply remove it carefully...........Then water change, microfilter etc..........

Certainly knock the biomass way back.

It does not seem to attack the plants much.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> That looks like GSA and usually rears it's ugly head when light is high. It has been indicated that low potassium or phosphates can make it more apparent but I don't believe this has been proven.


True, CO2 is also a cause for GSA, poor CO2 is often part of that, not just low PO4 alone.

Might be two or more things here also.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

darkoon said:


> do you use the same substrate as Toms does?


On one tank I also use black flourite, with another non CO2 tank that I had was just plain inert gravel. Both tanks had it, but maybe I inoculated this tank accidentally. Hard to say.

Big water changes, micron filters and UV help somewhat in reducing the "population" of zoospores, but that's all.

Maybe there is no friendly cure for this one. Just something toxic like copper.


----------



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

i had florite, just recently switched to eco-complete in my 72g, have 110w T5HO + 2 26w CFL clamp light on the side, i have had other algaes, GSA (I think) most of the time, but not booming, as far as I recall, i barely had any GDA, even when I had BGA in the tank, but plants do not grow as well as the 10G where I have azoo plant bed as substrate, 26w CLF clamp light ~5 inch above the surface, i can grow pretty much any plant pretty well in the 10g, but i always had both GDA and GSA, and they were bad, i had to scrape the glass twice a week until about 2 weeks ago, I upped fert (twice as much as what I used to dose), both GDA and GSA seem have stopped booming.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Bsmith - How is your tank looking now with the treatment you are doing? I'm curious if there is improvement.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I took some pics a while ago and will be posting them up here in a bit.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I can't wait to see them, you know the whole picture is worth 1,000 words. I'm really curious in the outcome.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I think you will be very happy with the pics, my plants haven't looked this good in months. Even the purple knight/aflame sword!


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

This suspense is killing me! I am very thrilled that you are seeing such a turn around. I'm glad that you may have finally gotten a handle on this issue. I'll check back tomorrow to see if you have pictures up.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

You cant argue with this...


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Nice that your plants are growing. But is the GDA gone? (not just less)


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

What is this beauty?


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

FANTASTIC difference, bsmith! I think you can now focus on growing plants and not the little algae that remains. I really think your other minor algae still present will just melt away since you obviously know how to grow plants looking at your other lovely tanks. (And if not, I'll be glad to help you out with that as well if you like with my limited knowledge. :hihi

Steve, I believe that is bsmith's purple knight/aflame sword. Isn't it a beauty?


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

dutchy said:


> Nice that your plants are growing. But is the GDA gone? (not just less)


No, you will never (or at least IMO) find a tank with high light like I have that has no GDA to speak of. There is still some on the glass but having to scrape it off every week compared to every day is a momentous achievement that I will hopefully be able to revel in for some time. There is no new GDA growing on the plants that I can see which was my main concern because if the leaves are blocked by algae then they cannot photosynthesize properly. 



audioaficionado said:


> What is this beauty?


That is an Echinodorus Purple Knight or Aflame. This plant has been slowly wasting away. Actually not really wasting away but it seemed that every time that it put a new leaf out it was smaller and more sickly looking then the past one. But now, within just 4-5 days it sprung up this vibrant robust leaf so im thinking that it as well was not able to consume N in the tank. 



sewingalot said:


> FANTASTIC difference, bsmith! I think you can now focus on growing plants and not the little algae that remains. I really think your other minor algae still present will just melt away since you obviously know how to grow plants looking at your other lovely tanks. (And if not, I'll be glad to help you out with that as well if you like with my limited knowledge. :hihi
> 
> Steve, I believe that is bsmith's purple knight/aflame sword. Isn't it a beauty?


Growing plants is easy but keeping the algae/cyanobacteria away in a tank like this poses a much more difficult problem. I'm going to clean out the filter on Sunday and really give the whole tank a complete scrub down, then change 50% of the water.

I will keep doing updates too.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Wow.. i feel learned... i just read all 8 pages, and all the attached articles. i need to go to bed..sheesh.. im not even going to speculate but there are some interesting concepts worth trying
please B.. keep us updated after ur scrub down


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Wow.. i feel learned... i just read all 8 pages, and all the attached articles. i need to go to bed..sheesh.. im not even going to speculate but there are some interesting concepts worth trying
> please B.. keep us updated after ur scrub down


Understandable, there is quite a bit of info in this thread but hopefully it will help some people like me that were at the end of the rope trying to figure out what was going on. Ill post up some pics on Sunday Pre and Post scrub down.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

sewingalot said:


> Steve, I believe that is bsmith's purple knight/aflame sword. Isn't it a beauty?





bsmith said:


> That is an Echinodorus Purple Knight or Aflame.


Being an Echinodorus genus it will also get huge under good growing conditions. I'll have to add it to my wish list for when I get a bigger, much bigger tank.

Back on topic: 

Brandon, if the cyno bacteria was eating up all the N, why didn't EI just supply enough excess N to feed the plants anyway? Isn't that what the purpose of EI is?

Not saying that you didn't get some good results with erythromycin, but was the unlimited N of your EI regimen really unlimited?


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

audioaficionado said:


> Being an Echinodorus genus it will also get huge under good growing conditions. I'll have to add it to my wish list for when I get a bigger, much bigger tank.
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> ...



I was dosing rootmedic liquid ferts and was actually beginning to think that some sort of excess was causing the problem. The EI regimen I went back to was for a planted tank. A tank full of cyanobacteria/GDA and plants that are growing poorly can suck up some nutrients like a champ. 

The aflame doesn't get very big in comparison to other swords. It's kind of a dwarf.


----------



## dutchy (Jul 31, 2009)

Compared to scraping every day that is a great result. I'm really looking for a way to eradicate it completely. I'm lazy.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Cut your light, that is the only way to completely rid yourself of it.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Cut your light, that is the only way to completely rid yourself of it.


You should wait to see if in a couple of weeks if it comes back.
Post treatment monitoring.

As you state, you still have it, but it's better, this is no cure.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> As you state, you still have it, but it's better, this is no cure.


I don't think it is a cure, no. And I am sure bsmith doesn't either and knows that he still has a long road ahead of him to get the tank back into tip top shape.

However, looking at his tank now this is an improvement. Using antibiotics to get a handle on things is no different than using excel at more than the recommended dosage to kill algae, manually removing algae or even doing large water to remove algae spores. _It is a tool, nothing more_. There a lot of tools in this hobby. These can be called snake oils or bandaids, or hogwash. 

But looking at bsmith's tank and seeing his frustration to the point he was about to tear it down and say the heck with it, I suggested a different method. _When things are at there worst, isn't this the time to pull out the gauze and stop the bleeding?_

I too will be interested in long term effects and bsmith is graciously offering to continue to update this thread no matter what happens. I think it is important to the hobby to show trials and tribulations, not just success stories. And if this doesn't work long term for him, we can try something entirely different. Just like when the wait and see method didn't help, you suggested Mg. That didn't help, so I suggested antibiotics. It's okay if I am wrong. My goal isn't to be right, it's to help bsmith get his tank back to a manageable state. 

My own tank is still chugging along more than three weeks after treatment, still free of _green paste algae_ (I won't call it green dust or cyanobacteria as it was a combination of both and other things such as diatoms). I actually am purposely leaving it free of scraping to due my insignificant tests and I take a measurement on the ruler weekly, determine the square centimeters of algae present versus the square centimeters of algae free-glass showing. I can tell you that less than 1 percent of my glass is showing any form of algae, and when I scrap it and sample it, it's almost entirely diatoms and not other forms.











Could I be wrong? Most certain. But who cares? I'm wrong 99% of the time, just ask my family. :tongue: This is just a hobby for me and sometimes bandaids are a good thing (just ask Martha Stewart).


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The fact that he had BGA to begin with was an issue already...........and might have nothing to do with GDA, we do not know it's anything relationship between the BGA and GDA..........

The test does not show or deny that.

We also have no control to compare to.

If it's as easy as pill popping and it fixes GDA, great...........but I have doubts.

Maybe the tank looks better simply because the BGA is gone, and the GDA is still there...........

Maybe there is a relationship,.........but we cannot say much....... yet.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I think it's pretty easy to draw the connection between poor plant growth (due to the BGA sucking up all the N) and this allowing GDA to be more apparent. I don't understand why this is hard for a few people to see???


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

You’re right Tom. I’m simply a hobbyist with a passion for algae experiments. My comments were only made with the best intentions. My posts were not meant to infringe upon the advice of the professional. I also add, on the advice of counsel, that my advice in the removal or lessening of any algae from said tank, be it: BGA, GDA, IGA, APA, IRA, or any other form of green gunk that grows in or around water, is given in the spirit of the amateur hobbyist. My posts do not imply or infer that I am a certified algae professional. 

I think we need to keep some of this in perspective. We are hobbyists trying to grow aquatic plants in tanks for our pleasure. We aren’t trying to split the atom or harness perpetual motion. For the most part, we are a large group of amateurs trying to share ideas. As such, we shouldn’t be held to an impossible standard. 



plantbrain said:


> Maybe the tank looks better simply because the BGA is gone, and the GDA is still there...........
> 
> Maybe there is a relationship,.........but we cannot say much....... yet.


I wouldn't disagree with this, in fact I agree that the tank looks better because the BGA is gone. And I am not so ignorant that I would say the GDA is no longer present nor will it return. Actually, this brings up a good point. What is GDA? Let's once for all define it. Is it a single alga or a conglomerate of algae or is algae with bacteria present? All the information I have come across in my studies only come up with vague references, and many of them contradict each other.

_Let me make this completely clear_:  I do not condone the use of antibiotics for GDA, but _solely for BGA_. In fact, antibiotics should not be used at all without respect and the understanding that this is a medication, not something to be toyed around with.

I suggested many posts ago to bsmith that he could possibly have BGA and that is why the traditional methods aren't working. Turns out he has several types of algae AND cyanobacteria. Is this going to cure his GDA problem through correlation or causation? Maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell. If I had unlimited resources and more knowledge on the subject, I'd love to do so. Unfortunately, I am only a hobbyist with a finite budget.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

I'm not involved much in this thread but I can tell you that I have the same problem as bsmith has. I'm just waiting for my etrythromicyn to arrive and will try the same.
You can see my thread @ apc here: Pictures of my tank 

@Sewingalot
I would like to thank you for all your effort and help you are providing here. As you can see, there is not much input at my asking for help on the other thread but for some to go as far as offering to look at sample of algae under microscope just left me speechless.
Because of people like you this hobby is enjoyed by many more people then it usually would be.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi slobodan! Welcome to the forum! 

Without seeing it firsthand, I couldn't recommend you to use antibiotics in neither good faith nor good conscious. I'd personally recommend a good scrubbing and cleaning of filters and other methods such as lowering the duration of lighting (doesn't matter with some algae if you have light or not), water changes, waiting it out (my personal favorite) before I'd even suggest you go the drastic measure. 

I'll send you a pm on what I've tried successfully in the past that didn't involve any medications but just good old-fashioned elbow grease and water changing.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

As a random thought, ive added meds to my tank. i just felt like playing. didnt think i'd hurt anyone.. its a hobby after all???

anywyas, i didnt take any before pcitures, but its odd that some of the green stuff is dying.. is it algae, is it bacteria? i don't know but its fuzzy or threadlike and is turning brown on my glass. not on any hardscape or plants which have a little algae from c02 changes i've made. Weird...


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Take some pics and maybe we can figure out what type of algae/bacteria it is.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

Hi all,

I've finally got my Erythromicyn and started working on my tank.
Here is what I have done so far and I will keep you posted on my progress.

1. Clean as much of BGA as possible.
2. Clean glass of GDA. Sawingalot suggested very good way of cleaning up GDA so to avoid have GDA floating in your aquarium. I have 25W UV light in my plumbing so I'm not much worried about stuff floating around.
3. Let it sit for about 2 hours so everything settles to the bottom.
4. Siphon out as much as you can. I replaced about 40gallons of water while doing it.
5. Add 200mg/10gal of Erythromicyn Day 1 and 100mg/10gal every subsequent day for 7 days.

Some pictures of progress:

Before cleaning:























































































After cleaning:






































Erythromicyn - 500mg




















I apologize if it is picture heavy for some..


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Nice detailed pictures. Just from looking at the glass and that carpet of algae, sure looks like mostly BGA as you suspect. I'm fascinated at how it pulled up the sand like that with. Wicked stuff. I am really believing there is more than just correlation on BGA and GDA the digger I dig in articles and research. They feed off each other so to speak. 

Did you do the lower the water method and wipe off with each swipe on the GDA? Just curious mostly as that glass is amazingly clear now after cleanup. Good luck on your dosing and let us know what happens, especially about the GDA on the glass long term.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

Hi sewingalot,

Yes, I've done as per you advice in regards to cleaning glass.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

Hi everyone,

Just quick update, my dosing of Erythromicyn is going good. No signs of GDA on the glass yet. No signs of BGA either. So far so good. I'll dose for another 3 days and that should do it. I think I'll resume with my ferts tomorrow.
Unfortunately I can't do any pictures at this time as I'm bed bound. I tore my Achilles' tendon on Thursday while playing soccer and due for surgery next week. This is going to be long few months....


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nice work slobodan. 

Just for reference I have been dosing 3 packets (the manufacturers directions are one pkt per 10g) and I have not seen any adverse reaction at all to overdosing.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

bsmith,

I'm doing the same thing. I don't want this thing come back.. 
I did 1 x 200mg/10gal and so far 4 x 150mg/10gal. I will do total of 7 doses and will see.
So far I don't see any adverse reaction to this type of dosing either. Fish are fine as well.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Nice work slobodan.
> 
> Just for reference I have been dosing 3 packets (the manufacturers directions are one pkt per 10g) and I have not seen any adverse reaction at all to overdosing.


Has the GDA come back though?

BGA is easy to kill off.

There might be some relationship.........but unless you can induce GDA, it's still correlative......I'd like to know why GDA appears in folk's tanks to begin with. I had in the past, but no trace of BGA.........

Why did I get it? Why is hard for me to grow and keep? I do note......many folks have a bear of time with it, I do not doubt any of that........

I'm just wondering why it grows to begin with, this is the key, not just eradication.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

slobodan said:


> bsmith,
> 
> I'm doing the same thing. I don't want this thing come back..
> I did 1 x 200mg/10gal and so far 4 x 150mg/10gal. I will do total of 7 doses and will see.
> So far I don't see any adverse reaction to this type of dosing either. Fish are fine as well.


Keep up the good work and let us know how it's doing. 



plantbrain said:


> Has the GDA come back though?
> 
> BGA is easy to kill off.
> 
> ...



There is some GDA but no mote then I would expect from any high tech setup. 

About the correlation between GDA and BGA. It's not a direct correlation it's a secondary correlation. I really don't see why you can't/won't see it since you are a big proponent of the "if your plants are growing well then algae can't compete" philosophy, which I completely agree with. But in this instance it was an algae/bacteria that was winning the battle because the cyano was eating all of the N which caused my plants to wither allowing the GDA to go out of control.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

So far I don't have GDA in my tank either. Only thing that I changed is I stopped to dose ferts. and I started Erythromycin treatment. 
Befor I started this treatment I would get GDA in 3 days max. by 7th day it looked like one on my pictures.
I also know another thing that I tested in this tank. I tried "Method of controlled Imbalance" and if I was just to dose KN03 without PO4 I would get GSA and as soon as I would add about .2ppm of PO4 it would turn from GSA into GDA or should I say GSA would disappear and only GDA would be left.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Here are a couple pics of some algae that I have now, after treatment. 


















Any ideas on what that might be?


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

slobodan said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Just quick update, my dosing of Erythromicyn is going good. No signs of GDA on the glass yet. No signs of BGA either. So far so good. I'll dose for another 3 days and that should do it. I think I'll resume with my ferts tomorrow.
> Unfortunately I can't do any pictures at this time as I'm bed bound. I tore my Achilles' tendon on Thursday while playing soccer and due for surgery next week. This is going to be long few months....


That is awful about your Achilles' tendon! That has to hurt something bad. I hope for a quick recovery.

I am happy your "Green Paint Algae" and BGA is gone! I look forward to seeing long term results.



plantbrain said:


> Has the GDA come back though?
> 
> BGA is easy to kill off.
> 
> ...


I am still wondering what your definition of "GDA" consists of on a broken down level so that we can explain why it grows to begin with. Like is it desmids, ciliates, protists, etc.? Every algae has a preference. For instance some algae prefer alkaline waters and this explains why some can't tolerate higher co2 levels. But first you have to define what GDA is or it can't be further investigated.

Of course BGA is easy to kill off, that is why I recommended bsmith look at the possibility that he had a problem with it in his tank while everyone else just speculated. No one even mentioned BGA to bsmith being a factor in his tank until I said so. 

Let me quote John Proctor for you:

"There might also be a dragon with five legs in my house, but no one has ever seen it." 



bsmith said:


> Here are a couple pics of some algae that I have now, after treatment.
> Any ideas on what that might be?


Most likely it's these little guys that were sampled from your leaves:


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

You have a PM dear.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Oh, bsmith - do you care to update this thread with a FTS before and after every so often? I think it's important for others to see the difference regardless of the outcome.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Oh, bsmith - do you care to update this thread with a FTS before and after every so often? I think it's important for others to see the difference regardless of the outcome.


Oops, I thought I did. Maybe I posted pics of this tank im my 60-p thread...

Here you go.

















































































































Also I noticed some nice green Hydra in the tank. I dosed what I had leaft of some panacur I got from Liam when I was treating my L183 breeding tank that had Hydra in it. It was only enough for 25g but hopefully it was enough.


----------



## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

Thanks to everybody that participated in this thread. I chewed over some of the things mentioned, tried something out, and it has really helped fix some algae issues. I don't have a ton of algae, but I think we all will always be fighting it.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Ben Belton said:


> Thanks to everybody that participated in this thread. I chewed over some of the things mentioned, tried something out, and it has really helped fix some algae issues. I don't have a ton of algae, but I think we all will always be fighting it.


Thats what I like to hear Ben. What were your issues, what did you do to combat them and what were the results?


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Took some pics. As you can see there was a bacterial boom that is trying to cause some green water. I have my UV sterilizer on there and can already see a good change from just last night. 

It looks like some serious GDA on the lower left side but thats just the reflection from the anubis thats on the left rear of the tank. 


















































Yes, beautiful and algae [email protected][email protected]!!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sewingalot said:


> I am still wondering what your definition of "GDA" consists of on a broken down level so that we can explain why it grows to begin with. Like is it desmids, ciliates, protists, etc.?


I stated a long time ago what genus it was and what life stage.



> Every algae has a preference. For instance some algae prefer alkaline waters and this explains why some can't tolerate higher co2 levels. But first you have to define what GDA is or it can't be further investigated.


see above



> Of course BGA is easy to kill off, that is why I recommended bsmith look at the possibility that he had a problem with it in his tank while everyone else just speculated. No one even mentioned BGA to bsmith being a factor in his tank until I said so.
> 
> Let me quote John Proctor for you:
> 
> "There might also be a dragon with five legs in my house, but no one has ever seen it."


Well, rushing to judgment and thinking you have found a cure is a bit premature, but........I've felt the same way in the past......do not mind me, I'll wait and see. Nothing wrong with trying different things, but if you had BGA on the glass and leaves already, there was not good growth. Killing it will help, but only for so long.

Hence the old state: focus on the plants, not the algae.

I have to question the treatment and the alga.........as I have been curiously unable to grow and culture GDA in my own tanks, both in Hard and Soft tap waters and let's see, 16 tanks now. Only 2 tanks where able to hold the algae for long, more than 3 weeks. One tank had it for 4 months, but.........I knew it had a CO2 issues, once fixed, the algae went away on it's own. I also tried the wait 3-4 weeks and then wipe method. Both "worked", but it did not address the longer term issues others had, so I could not conclude that much from that treatment method. Post treatment with other folks did not prove 90-100 % effective. A few "me too's" is not confirmation.

The longer term post treatment may simply be all related to good plant care.
Many accept some algae, but GW GDA, BBA are some of the ones folks hate, still, what about no algae visible or most any sort?

Good horticulture is the path there.
That will help regardless of any algal woes.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

sewingalot said:


> Most likely it's these little guys that were sampled from your leaves:


The rod shaped zoospores are the defendants in question.

Also, in your microscope, watch them and scape some off the glass surface and then see what they do.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

well i don't have a microscope so for a severe sense of conveniance. would you mind telling those of us without microscopes, what exactly does happen when you scrape some please


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I don't know if I have BGA too, but I'll keep watching this thread and see how it develops. I'm leaning towards evidence based results as there are things we don't fully understand here and it's too easy to jump to wrong conclusions without rigorous scientific experimentation and methodology.


----------



## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

bsmith said:


> Thats what I like to hear Ben. What were your issues, what did you do to combat them and what were the results?


I have 3 types of algae.

1. The light green one. I thought it was green dust algae, but when I had it in the past, I could wave my hand near the glass, and the motion of the water would loosen some. I could see it blow away in a cloud. This is the same color as that, it sticks to the glass, but its a little tough to scrape up. I don't know if its the same or not. Tank is a 75 and my water is super soft. I was adding a tsp of Mg and a tsp of CaCl2 at water change. I upped it to 3tsp of Mg and 5 tsp of CaCl2 using Carlos' calculator and the light green algae is going away. I also started dosing a tsp of Mg 3 times a week with other ferts. I'm at a week now since water change and scraping, and it hasn't come back... or not enough that I have noticed.

2. Is the blue-green spot algae. Gets on slow growing plants and the glass. Takes a chisel to scrape up. I don't have a ton of this, but its annoying to have it at all. Going to keep the same dosing for another couple weeks like in #1 above and then start another change to see if I can fix this. My next change is to up my PO4.

3. Plain old BBA. I've been dosing Excel and yes, my CO2 is raging high. When I've dosed Excel in the past, the stuff turned red in a couple days and was gone in a week. This is not turning. I'm not worried though. Its only on a couple older plants and the filter parts. It is slowly dying away.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Ben Belton said:


> I have 3 types of algae.
> 
> 1. The light green one. I thought it was green dust algae, but when I had it in the past, I could wave my hand near the glass, and the motion of the water would loosen some. I could see it blow away in a cloud. This is the same color as that, it sticks to the glass, but its a little tough to scrape up. I don't know if its the same or not. Tank is a 75 and my water is super soft. I was adding a tsp of Mg and a tsp of CaCl2 at water change. I upped it to 3tsp of Mg and 5 tsp of CaCl2 using Carlos' calculator and the light green algae is going away. I also started dosing a tsp of Mg 3 times a week with other ferts. I'm at a week now since water change and scraping, and it hasn't come back... or not enough that I have noticed.
> 
> ...



Sounds like what your doing is working. I find that whenever I get any ripe of algae it usually can be attributed to low co2 (not this time but I'm mainly talking about BBA GSA and any type of hair algae) so when doing whatever treatment it's always good to crank up the co2, change the DC fluid and keep upping the gas till I see stress in the fauna, then back it down a notch.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The tank is almost crystal clear. It's funny to me how clear the water is after killing the green water with the UV sterilizer. 

The only real algae that i have now is a nice tuft of BBA on my hydor power head. This doesn't bother me since I think that its normal in a tank like this. And there is some GDA growing on the new wood that I put in the tank. Again I consider this just a normal occurrence in a high light tank. 

Otherwise the glass is clear and the plants are very happy.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well seeing is believing and now this is a couple weeks after the chemical treatment. I think its very clear and safe to say that with out the Erythro treatment my tank would never be looking as good as it does now.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

Nice clear up there bsmith. I also noticed that by adding some Mg it get rid off GDA.
Unfortunately I don't think that I killed my BGA with my treatment. There is still not much on the sand but I think it's coming slowly by surely.   
I can't take any pictures at this time as my leg is in cast for another 8 weeks.  
There is no GDA on my glass yet, and plants are doing much better now then before treatment. So, I've been GDA free ever since Erythromicin treatment.


----------



## slobodan (May 30, 2011)

By the way, I'm not saying that Erythromicin is to be used to treat GDA but I had same Blue/green alge problem as bsmith and by treating it with Erythromicin it also made conditions less favorable for GDA.
Just to clear things up for newbies that might be reading this.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

To follow up with BSmith's results, I had a person over seas try this and they had the same results.

This looks to be a good way to resolve some more persistent GDA issues. Perhaps there is a heterotrophic bacteria, maybe not just BGA(okay they are cyanobacteria) that plays a role. 

Why it works for folks, I'm not sure, nor is anyone at this point. However, it does appear to work for not just one of two cases, but several independently. I'm waiting to hear back post treatment effects, but it seems welcomed news for many.

So Sewingalot's suggestion does work well. I'm not sure if it has anything to do with BGA, or if that's correlation, but the antibacterial EM did something, the results do not say what with regards to the causal effects, but it does appear to get rid of the GDA, which is much harder than BGA to eradicate. 

Now I'd like to know what induced GDA to begin with.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

slobodan said:


> Nice clear up there bsmith. I also noticed that by adding some Mg it get rid off GDA.
> Unfortunately I don't think that I killed my BGA with my treatment. There is still not much on the sand but I think it's coming slowly by surely.
> I can't take any pictures at this time as my leg is in cast for another 8 weeks.
> There is no GDA on my glass yet, and plants are doing much better now then before treatment. So, I've been GDA free ever since Erythromicin treatment.


There where 5 other folks I tried this out on that had long term GDA issues.

Results where the same.

I'm good with it as a fixing method for GDA.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Well I've got more GSA than GDA. I've got the CO2 to yellow and started EI. I'm high light at the tank top and medium at the bottom. Some of my nicer compact stem plants melt if they don't get enough light on the substrate. If I don't get much new algae on the new leaves, then I'm on the right track. It would be nice to have less of all algae types I have including a little BBA at the very top. GDA is easy to scrub off the glass while GSA is like scraping barnacles off. Not even my Nerites will do much damage to the GSA. I'm reluctant to use broad spectrum antibiotics unless I absolutely have to and it seems several here have had to either use it or take a hammer to their tanks in utter frustration.


----------



## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I wanted to follow up on my posts.

I've only scraped the glass once in over a month now. Increasing Mg really made a big difference. Even then the presence of light green algae on the glass was slight. I probably could have not scraped the glass for another week or so.

Also, since my last post my BBA has practically disappeared. Blue/green spot algae has slowly retreated, but it are hanging around some. The only changes I've made other than the Mg is to increase PO4 a little and actually put fish in my tank.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

audioaficionado said:


> Well I've got more GSA than GDA. I've got the CO2 to yellow and started EI. I'm high light at the tank top and medium at the bottom. Some of my nicer compact stem plants melt if they don't get enough light on the substrate. If I don't get much new algae on the new leaves, then I'm on the right track. It would be nice to have less of all algae types I have including a little BBA at the very top. GDA is easy to scrub off the glass while GSA is like scraping barnacles off. Not even my Nerites will do much damage to the GSA. I'm reluctant to use broad spectrum antibiotics unless I absolutely have to and it seems several here have had to either use it or take a hammer to their tanks in utter frustration.


You do not need AB's, you need more focus on CO2, current, light reduction.
GSA is PO4 or CO2, and since you have BBA, that's a dead give away.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Thanx, I'm just going to watch and observe for now and see what happens with the new high-tech regimen.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

This thread is awesome!

*Thank you* to all those who did their own research on the problem, persisted in the face of adversity, and as a result discovered something new and useful.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DarkCobra said:


> This thread is awesome!
> 
> *Thank you* to all those who did their own research on the problem, persisted in the face of adversity, and as a result discovered something new and useful.


I think Sewingalot takes the credit.
Whether she is right or not............does not dispute the fact that the hypothesis led to a resolution that fixes the issues GDA issue for many dogged cases.


----------



## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

+1 for sewingalot and bsmith!


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Sara (sewingalot) gets the nod from me. She took her own personal time to look at the algaes under a microscope to actually figure out what the heck we were dealing with. That was amazing! :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Sara (sewingalot) gets the nod from me. She took her own personal time to look at the algaes under a microscope to actually figure out what the heck we were dealing with. That was amazing! :thumbsup:


Err, I did the ID back in 2001-2002 nearly 10 years ago.........adding the BGA and speculating there might be something to it as far as cure was much more her doing, not mine.

Her pictures show what I'd stated a long time ago as far as the GDA and species/Genus.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> To follow up with BSmith's results, I had a person over seas try this and they had the same results.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fantastic news that this is helping others! My main goal was to help bsmith not give up, but this is great to see that others are benefiting as well. This is a great result, better than I could have hoped for. The question is: I really don't know why you can't induce GDA, Tom. I think you must have magical skin that repells all algae or something. In all seriousness, it is very common to get GDA in my tanks if I am not diligent. I couldn't figure out why it kept coming back time and time again and I have found two things that seem to be the culprit in triggering it. One, it's in our water. I've set out water from the tap in a window and after a few weeks, I've found a few types of algae growing. Also, it tends to flourish in iron and sulur rich environments. Our water is heavy in iron, especially it rains and I've seen that the GDA always flares up after a rainy period if I perform water changes during this time. All speculation and elementary thinking, but I am finding much evidence from many scientific studies to back up my theories on GDA. Been observing and researching this little guy, BGA and BBA for a few years now. I adore algae. 

For some reason, getting rid of BGA with Antibiotics has a positive effect on also curbing GDA. I think it's a symbiotic relationship at least. Have quite a bit of algae I have scraped in jars in the window sill that I am applying different methods to just to see what happens.



DarkCobra said:


> This thread is awesome!
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you to all those who did their own research on the problem, persisted in the face of adversity, and as a result discovered something new and useful.


Glad you enjoyed the thread, Dark Cobra. I love the subject of algae (I bet you didn't know this. ) 



plantbrain said:


> I think Sewingalot takes the credit.
> 
> Whether she is right or not............does not dispute the fact that the hypothesis led to a resolution that fixes the issues GDA issue for many dogged cases.


Credit really goes to many other people and scientists. For bsmith, I really just applied some of the methods I've found through research that I linked in this thread, talked to others about algae and some good old educated guesses.



bsmith said:


> Sara (sewingalot) gets the nod from me. She took her own personal time to look at the algaes under a microscope to actually figure out what the heck we were dealing with. That was amazing!


Thanks, B! How is the tank doing? I saw the most recent pictures you posted and was thrilled with the results. Is it still doing well for you? Any issues?

Glad to have helped and would be happy to look at other peoples algae under the microscope if they ask.



plantbrain said:


> Err, I did the ID back in 2001-2002 nearly 10 years ago.........adding the BGA and speculating there might be something to it as far as cure was much more her doing, not mine.
> 
> 
> 
> Her pictures show what I'd stated a long time ago as far as the GDA and species/Genus.


I don't think anyone is saying you didn't do the ID back in 01 for GDA. I really think Bsmith is only thanking me for taking pictures with a microscope and getting id's on what his problem was and suggesting an idea as to why the issue persisted.

I really wouldn't even want to suggest this method without confirming my suspicions microscopically first as I'd like to see if there truly is more of a connection here just for my inner nerdiness sake.

Haha, if this really proves to have a relationship as I guess we could call it sewingalot's method to killing bsmith's Green Paint Algae.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Welcome back, Sara! Now that you're here, I have a question for you.

I've looked up a number of cyanobacteria types, and found that they differ greatly in color, growth pattern, etc.

And I've looked at your microscopic pictures of Anabaena. I also found a few pictures of what Anabaena blooms look like to the naked eye, and from what I can tell it looks surprisingly like GDA; rather than the blue-green variety we're all familiar with.

Seems folks have come to the conclusion that getting rid of the cyano somehow also gets rid of the GDA, but you said in regards to your own results:



sewingalot said:


> I confirmed it was almost entirely bacteria and not algae through microscopic observation.


Which sounds as if, even though some true GDA might have been present, it did not account for any significant portion of what was visible in your case.

Is that correct?

I'm wondering if Anabaena might be visually similar enough to true GDA that they might be confused, in which case folks are incorrectly trying to relate two entirely different things.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

In other words we're dealing with a green colored cyanobacteria instead of the usual blue-green 'cyan' colored versions?


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

audioaficionado said:


> In other words we're dealing with a green colored cyanobacteria instead of the usual blue-green 'cyan' colored versions?


Yep, it seems like a possibility.

Plus in this thread and this one, another type of "algae" was apparently identified by microscope as some kind of reddish-black cyano. Not as many details as in this thread, but three people have reported it also responded to erythromycin.

Seems worth considering and looking into further. Know your enemy.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, one of the folks had the GDA return I guinea pigged out using this. I suggested a few changes to help beat it back, but it's not a cure for some cases. 

I'll see if the GDA persist and then I'll try it on a couple of other folks.
*
GDA is not a BGA...............*

It is a Green eukaryotic alga. It;'s readily ID able from the pictures in Sewingalot's images, and most any ID key.

There is BGA attached with it, the BGA attached/present with the GDA seems to allow the GDA to persist and be troublesome, at least that is the hypothesis.
So if you kill the secondary BGA, then GDA is relatively easy to get rid of.

We still do not know preventive methods or what induces GDA or the ID of the BGA.
Those are or important questions also.

As some of the folks have had the GDA return........even after adding EM.........much like the Blackout methods or let go and finish it's cycle............this is not a 100% effective method either.
It may kill all the BGA.......but does not kill the GDA it seems.

I'll still wait and see. more test need done of different folks that have had GDA going for sometime.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Feeling a little rusty and not trusting myself to quote things here, so I'll answer you this good old fashioned way. You are correct, Dark Cobra. I did find more bacteria in bsmith's tank (most cyanobacterias) and GDA was present in smaller amounts. GDA was enveloping everything. Actually, I had to scrape off the layer of stench to even get to the GDA samples on the leaves. It was blanketing it. I hope this answers your main question.

And for my official stance: Many of the algaes we blame to be clado, diatoms, bba, and green algaes are more likely than not forms of BGA. Blue-green algaes (cyanobacteria) are better referred to as cyano in my opinion because they come in many different colors, forms, sizes and can even change according to the nutrients in water. Much of the rest is bacteria, such as iron bacteria in this area.

It is "blue-green" because it typically glows under the present of colored lights. Add a green light and you get the pretty "blue green glow"









And I find it ironic you brought up darkoon's algae. I had the privilege of seeing it under the microscope (thanks darkoon) and confirmed it was indeed a form of cyano. And people were telling him it was BBA in the beginning. I just updated that thread with pictures. I've had them a while, but I was not online, so hence the delay.

But since you brought it up, here are some shots:






















































Ironically?

This algae was also found to be covering up a hidden secret, the same GDA (as identified by TB in 01) under layers of stench. It seemed to be eating it or attacking it like zombies.









So my belief? It's related, some how. But how, I don't know. Maybe BGA only appears to have a relationship because it's covering up everything. But it's just a coincidence. But either way, if it helps people, that's great.


----------



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I'm happy to see you are back in action Sara, loving/hating algae just like the good old times!

Tom regarding what the one person that had the cyano return after dosing whatever they were dosing. I think that you really have to over dose (as I did) and do the proper wc's after and tank cleaning to make sure you really eliminate all of the cyano. I think that there are more lazy people (not attacking the person whos cyano returned but rather just stating my own opinion) who do not follow directions completely or to completion and that can and will have detrimental results in the end. I guess we wont know if they did follow the manufacturers directions and unfortunately due to human nature it is likely that even if they did not follow the directions to a T, they would probably say that they did to not risk damaging peoples opinion of them. 

I hope im wrong and the person in question is a good friend of yours and you have close contact with them but chances are not good that will be the case.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi B! When people ask why I am back around, I'm blaming you for the equipment BBA sponge. It was beautiful enough to bring the algae lover around......that and overheating my sewing machine at 2 in the morning. LOL

Would it make sense for the GDA return if it is reintroduced somehow? If you add it back through adding contaminated plants, water supply or even uprooting plants and stirring up the algae the treatment couldn't reach, it should return, right? Obviously it is not a cure all and nothing should be treated as such. And I am 1000% with you on prevention is the key. But still, this is a good last resort method. Also, I don't think the GDA goes away but gets stunned with this treatment. Just long enough to get a handle on things. And did you take microscopic samples of their GDA? I'd like to see pictures of the before and after treatments of your friends.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

No doubt GDA is an algae, along with many others.

But evidence of a symbiosis between cyano and GDA, along with finding out what I'll call "black spot" is really cyano, is interesting enough.

Thank you for the clarification and excellent pictures!

BGA is also easily reintroduced from another tank, even if you don't know you have it. For a while, every time I moved plants from my high-tech 46G to other, low-tech and less stringently maintained tanks, BGA appeared in the recipient tanks; even though there was zero visible evidence of BGA in the 46G. Treating all my tanks simultaneously took care of that, once and for all.


----------



## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Some of the old leaves have so much solid algae on them that it looks very dark almost black with red overtones. I was assuming that it was GDA with the dots all connecting.


----------



## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

DarkCobra said:


> No doubt GDA is an algae, along with many others.
> 
> But evidence of a symbiosis between cyano and GDA, along with finding out what I'll call "black spot" is really cyano, is interesting enough.
> 
> ...


You are welcome for the pictures. I thought those were awesome.

That would explain how I got it in one of my tanks. I had a heater in the 15 gallon and took it out as it was too hot for the summer right before treatment. I put it in another tank and I am noticing some cyano cropping up on the cord of the heater and the glass near it. Crud.



audioaficionado said:


> Some of the old leaves have so much solid algae on them that it looks very dark almost black with red overtones. I was assuming that it was GDA with the dots all connecting.


You know I am totally wanting to see any algae people care to send me, right?


----------

