# What is the best substrate for cryptocorynes???



## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

I am getting really into crypts these days, and I wanted to ask all of you planted tankers what your thoughts were on the best substrate to grow crypts in. Any info at all would be appreciated. Thanks!


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

They pretty much grow in anything provided the nutrients... dirt will obviously be the best since they are heavy root feeders.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

You can grow them fine in plain top soil from a garden center for $1.79 a bag.

If you decide to improve that dirt I feel it's important to not get too carried away. I think Red Clay is a helpful additive. I like the idea of dolomite and Crushed Oster Shells/Crushed Coral as they desolve at different rates. 

I know the "chicken littles" will scream the sky is falling But, I feel some organic matter is helpful too. That could be worm casings or composted manure, oak leaves. The key here is to not go overboard in % to total. 

After that one should consider the Crypt specie when fine tuning the dirt, some like acidic soil other more alkaline. The close you can get to the plants natural habitat the more successful you will be.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

MTS capped with Eco or flourite or floramax. Something along those lines.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

OK, I have a good idea bout the substrate- what do I need to do about lighting? My current light is an 18" 15w T8.


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## jstehman (Dec 13, 2010)

I think that light should be sufficient. Granted, all I have are Wendtii and Spiralis, but it seems that the lower the light, the better.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

I have never tried a dirt tank of any sort- what would be some good choices and methods for that? Should I only fill the tank with 1/2 water, or try true emersed? Sorry I have so many questions.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Also, is there one substrate available that would be a good choice for a wide variety of crypts? I am really interested and want all of the info that I can get. Thanks again.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

DogFish said:


> You can grow them fine in plain top soil from a garden center for $1.79 a bag.
> 
> If you decide to improve that dirt I feel it's important to not get too carried away. I think Red Clay is a helpful additive. I like the idea of dolomite and Crushed Oster Shells/Crushed Coral as they desolve at different rates.
> 
> ...


Oh yea... aren't you the guy who put dog poo in his fish tank!?


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

My crypt lucens and wendtii are growing like weeds in both my dirted 10g and 20g. They love dirt. MGOPM is what I use. I can't say much about other crypts, though. If any of them require acidic soil you could just put some peat in the mix.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> Oh yea... aren't you the guy who put dog poo in his fish tank!?


Yes, that would be me. :icon_mrgr


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> Oh yea... aren't you the guy who put dog poo in his fish tank!?


That would be my Tonic Ten tank, see my sig line link. I've also used worm casings(worm poop) and composted Buffalo poop. If you are interested in poop, you might look at this thread too: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/157274-wanted-plant-product-testers.html


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Depends on which ones you want to grow. Some require different conditions.

Some prefer higher ph, others lower.

Sandy soil with low nutrients with steady water flow and others that prefer acidic swamp (leaf litter tanks)

Peat is your friend for most crypts, and I find that plant growerbed/aquasoil/florabase/plant stratum all benefit my crypts.

:^)


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## Java Moss (Jan 17, 2011)

I'm glad somebody posted something about crypts. Bought three of them a couple months ago to stick in my son's 20L. Have read that they were rather low tech and easy to keep, so decided to grab a few from the LFS. 

Stuck them in regular inert gravel, gave each their own Flourish tab - no CO2 other than what the fish provide and the light is stock 8000K - great results with strong leaves, excellent growth and a few baby leaves poking their way through since then. 

I love my other low maintenance moss, fern and swords...but sometimes they can be a hassle - black algae, sporadic growth, ect. But, if these crypts become almost maintenance free except from a tiny bit of pruning in the 20L, I just might consider going all crypt and calling it a day!


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Java Moss said:


> ... But, if these crypts become almost maintenance free except from a tiny bit of pruning in the 20L, I just might consider going all crypt and calling it a day!


The longer I'm involved in this hobby the more & more I'm convinced that Bio-Type an specie tanks are the way to go. Plants and fish/inverts live together in nature for a reason. I find the less I try to fight nature the better I my tanks look.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

DogFish said:


> You can grow them fine in plain top soil from a garden center for $1.79 a bag.
> 
> If you decide to improve that dirt I feel it's important to not get too carried away. I think Red Clay is a helpful additive. I like the idea of dolomite and Crushed Oster Shells/Crushed Coral as they desolve at different rates.
> 
> ...


chicken little here and Oyster Shells/Crushed Coral are not altering calcium and carbonate buffer levels present in my tanks but the rest I'm in total agreement with LOL 

Organics are time release ferts.


DogFish said:


> The longer I'm involved in this hobby the more & more I'm convinced that Bio-Type an specie tanks are the way to go. Plants and fish/inverts live together in nature for a reason. I find the less I try to fight nature the better I my tanks look.


Crypt tanks are some of the easiest to maintain once you you get it filled in. The scapes seems to last forever,,, or at least 3yrs anyway LOL.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Mike, you? a Chicken little?? :hihi::hihi::hihi:

I just read a somewhere out there in cyberspace about how as the organics materials break down the acidic byproducts help the free the iron and calcium for use by plants roots. I'l try to find that site, I'm sure I'm not being specific on the process. I won't be surprised if someone appears on this thread and "corrects" me... :hihi:


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## Java Moss (Jan 17, 2011)

DogFish said:


> I find the less I try to fight nature the better I my tanks look.



Good call, indeed. A baby will eat when he's hungry...not because guesswork in a white coat says otherwise. 

roud:


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## chiefroastbeef (Feb 14, 2011)

I am using Fluval Stratum as my substrate, along with fish/shrimp poop, and substrate tabs. The crypts are doing very well!


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

for my emersed soil i use 60% black sphagnum peat, 30% organic potting soil (pretty much what dog describes... loaded with ferts, osmocote, clay, organic stuff that will decompose), 5% perlite/vermiculite mix (not to be used submersed, used for anti compaction/drainage), 5% crushed dolomite/shells etc (used as a pH buffer).

I used the same mix minus the perlite with a PFS capping and my root feeders in this tank (star repens) are in heaven. only problem is without prepping the soil (i.e. mts wet/dry, or going thru a dry start period) i have issues with turbidity and bouyant soil particles (looks dirty). as far as my plants are concerned however, they're happy to be stuck in the mud 


Sent from my iPhone


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Right now I have crypts in tanks with Eco Complete, Fluorite, some odd-branded 'live sand' substrate, and Caribsea Black Sand. They all seem to be doing equally well, but I put a LOT of root tabs in each tank and I regularly dose water column ferts. Only one of these tanks has CO2. The plants in the 'live sand' tank (Fluval Edge) appear to be growing much better; this tank has no CO2, no ferts at all, and only snails, shrimps and ABNs in it. I supplemented the light on the Edge a bit, and now I have a bit of an algae problem, but my crypts are going great. I am starting to think that the substrate may not be that big of a factor and that the stocking level of the tank is the key to good crypt growth.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

DogFish said:


> Mike, you? a Chicken little?? :hihi::hihi::hihi:
> 
> I just read a somewhere out there in cyberspace about how as the organics materials break down the acidic byproducts help the free the iron and calcium for use by plants roots. I'l try to find that site, I'm sure I'm not being specific on the process. I won't be surprised if someone appears on this thread and "corrects" me... :hihi:


 
We see crushed coral breaking down in marine tank substrates. (and they start with PHs in the range of 8). I'm sure they break down a bit in freshwater substrates. 


Your substrate typically does not have the same PH as your water.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

From what I understand, as long as the water is at least a little acidic (below 7.0 pH) the coral will continue to degrade until some sort of equilibrium is reached between the pH, GH and KH.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> Some prefer higher ph, others lower.


Exactly. Most of the common Cryps are from Sri Lanka and will grow in most anything and are more tolerant of a wide range of water parameters,
while other species really require an acidic substrate, and even acidic water. I agree with Gordon, a little peat in the substrate will do the trick. Soil would provide nitrogen and may be somewhat acidic. You can mix some pulverized sphagnum peat with soil.

You can also add peat and nitrogen tablets/capsules to any gravel substrate for plants.

People who grow cryps emersed usually use a very thick composted soil, mushroom compost, beech leaf mold compost to create a very low pH. Not for use in the aquarium.



> I just read a somewhere out there in cyberspace about how as the organics materials break down the acidic byproducts help the free the iron and calcium for use by plants roots. I'l try to find that site, I'm sure I'm not being specific on the process. I won't be surprised if someone appears on this thread and "corrects" me...


Organic *acids* turn oxidized minerals such as Iron (Fe+3) to water soluble iron (Fe+2), this process is caled chelation. Liquid fertilizers have chelators already in the mix, (such as EDTA)


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Robert H - If nothing else, you are predictable


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Well I know I don't have 1700 posts in only one year, but I try! :icon_cool

I don't think I am disagreeing with you here am I? Soil would be good for most any Cryp. For some peat helps too, but soil is not the only way to go.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

I imagine all the self promoting you do must leave little time to enjoy friendly hobby conversation. Maybe you come of abrasive and confrontational because you are out of practice comunicating in this venue. :wink:


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Basically wouldn't the richer the substrate is the better for most crypts?


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

dogfish u crack me up man... how's your lagenandra thwaitesii doing? 


Sent from my iPhone


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Is that how its going to be Dog? Think quality not quantity. OK, I think I will just move on then and ignore that little comment....

I really like _BIOTOPES_. I like them a lot. When you really get into them though, it is very frustrating, because unless you have been to the place in person and written down every detail, or talk to someone who has done that, it is extremely difficult to find enough information to do an accurate biotope. Most of the information available on the internet or in books is very general and in some cases misleading. Someone will always nitpick your biotope and say well that rock doesn't belong there and that the wrong kind of wood, bla bla bla.
If I try to do one again, I will call it a biotope representation so it will not have to be perfect.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

thefisherman said:


> dogfish u crack me up man... how's your lagenandra thwaitesii doing?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone


Yes, back to topic...Crypt dirt. The L. Thwaitestii is is of to a good but slow start. All 4 plants have new leaves coming up. They are with my C. Becketii in my 40. Funny I was worried about them going wild and they are growing slower than my Anubus. I'm sure they pick-up speed as they get full adjusted. Since they come from the same are in nature as the C. Becketii I would think they will like they same soil.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Since most crypts are found in nature only a single species per site (typically) but most of the places are in about the same area I guess I figured that one soil/substrate would be good for all or at least for most of them. After this thread and a bit more research on my own it looks like there is no one optimal condition in either water parameters or substrate for crypts in general. Maybe I should have asked which substrate and water conditions would favor the widest variety of crypts? Another question to ask would be which crypts would be suitable for planting with each other in these conditions? I like the idea of a biotope tank, but not the limitations so much; but having 15 different crypts in the same tank does not prove too easy either. It seems like one variety or another is always doing better, but never at the same time.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

You getting into the topic of Plant Allelopathy. Some question that it exists, I believe is it a very real part of a plants life cycle. This gets back to using pots vs. planting a full bedded farm for multipule sp. of crypts. Also as we've chatted about with pots you can get more plant specific.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> Yes, back to topic...Crypt dirt.


Is that what the subject here is Dog?



> I like the idea of a biotope tank, but not the limitations so much; but having 15 different crypts in the same tank does not prove too easy either. It seems like one variety or another is always doing better, but never at the same time.


That is because not all Cryps are the same. To some extent each plant has its own needs, and the more you can research and learn about each of the Cryps you are growing, the better off you will be. Then you can group together those that are black water cryps, moderate hardness cryps, and hard water Cryps. If you are growing these in individual pots you can cater each to fit the needs of the plant. What is your ultimate goal here? What are you wanting to do with these plants?


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Robert H said:


> Is that what the subject here is Dog?
> 
> 
> 
> That is because not all Cryps are the same. To some extent each plant has its own needs, and the more you can research and learn about each of the Cryps you are growing, the better off you will be. Then you can group together those that are black water cryps, moderate hardness cryps, and hard water Cryps. If you are growing these in individual pots you can cater each to fit the needs of the plant. What is your ultimate goal here? What are you wanting to do with these plants?


Well, my main planted tank at this time has 15 crypts, 7 anubias varieties and 6 java fern varieties; with that tank I wanted to demonstrate that you could have a tank with low-light, low-maintenance tank that still had a bit of diversity to it. Almost all of these plants (except 2 crypt species) were added before I started to do a lot of research into what makes crypts tick, so some of the plants are doing great and some, well not so much. So I started looking into the different types of crypts (blackwater, etc) to do a more compatible tank, and here I am. I have been doing a bit of experimenting (light, substrate, root tabs, column dosing, stock levels) over the last few months, trying out different things, so I decided to just ask some questions here. Ideally I would be able to put a wide variety of crypts into one tank with parameters that are at least generally acceptable to all of them. This would be my main display tank. Barring that, I would like to know what crypts I should group together and what the conditions for each grouping should be for the best success. Actually, since I have two 40g breeders that I am setting up in a few weeks I would like to do both- a broad variety of plants in one (they must be at least somewhat compatible) and then a condition-based tank with similar plants that will probably evolve into a biotope though probably not with the limitations.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

DogFish said:


> You getting into the topic of Plant Allelopathy. Some question that it exists, I believe is it a very real part of a plants life cycle. This gets back to using pots vs. planting a full bedded farm for multipule sp. of crypts. Also as we've chatted about with pots you can get more plant specific.


I do like the idea of pots for just this reason. My only real issue is that they look funny in a nice planted tank so I would probably only use them either in grow out tanks or emersed. I have read a bit about the allelopathy issue, but have not really seen it demonstrated yet. (Or have I seen it and just not known it?)


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

thefisherman said:


> for my emersed soil i use 60% black sphagnum peat, 30% organic potting soil (pretty much what dog describes... loaded with ferts, osmocote, clay, organic stuff that will decompose), 5% perlite/vermiculite mix (not to be used submersed, used for anti compaction/drainage), 5% crushed dolomite/shells etc (used as a pH buffer).
> 
> I used the same mix minus the perlite with a PFS capping and my root feeders in this tank (star repens) are in heaven. only problem is without prepping the soil (i.e. mts wet/dry, or going thru a dry start period) i have issues with turbidity and bouyant soil particles (looks dirty). as far as my plants are concerned however, they're happy to be stuck in the mud
> 
> ...


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

I like the 'idea' of a dirt tank, but not so much about capping it and having to worry about the MTS or MGO or whatever getting loose and mudding up my tank. How do you keep from disturbing the cap and filling your tank with mud while you plant and scape? What happens if a boisterous pleco decides to dig a hole? I want my plants to be as healthy as possible, but I also really enjoy looking at them so having a clean and clear tank is important to me.


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

wetworks said:


> I like the 'idea' of a dirt tank, but not so much about capping it and having to worry about the MTS or MGO or whatever getting loose and mudding up my tank. How do you keep from disturbing the cap and filling your tank with mud while you plant and scape? What happens if a boisterous pleco decides to dig a hole? I want my plants to be as healthy as possible, but I also really enjoy looking at them so having a clean and clear tank is important to me.


it gets cloudy for all of the above even with a cap lol. the good thing is this is a plant only tank for now.

i was basically potting my crypts for my emersed setup and had a bunch of soil mix leftover, so i threw it in this tank. i shoved a bunch of throw away cuttings in there and tbh it was soo cloudy i couldn't even tell if the plants were alive or melted. plus i had all this bouyant soil particles (even now) suspended in the water. totally muddy looking.

much to my surprise however (after a month) the particles began to settle and revealed a lot of happy plants, zero maintenance.

but remember, i just immeiately submerged my soil without any prep. i know people mineralize soil speciucally to reduce turbidity and excess nutrient release and prevent algae outbreaks.

i also understand that is the reason to add clay to your soil mix, as it acts as a flocculent and binds to soil particles making them settle faster (resulting in less cloudiness).at this time, i'm happy with the way my plants have responded to a nutrient rich substrate. 

allsaid and done i am considering MTS over prepared substrates (eco-complete, aquasoil) for my next large tank project (100g), simply because of financial reasons....MTS is literally dirt cheap! 







Sent from my iPhone


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

wetworks said:


> ... How do you keep from disturbing the cap and filling your tank with mud while you plant and scape? ...
> 
> What happens if a boisterous pleco decides to dig a hole?


I fill with MTS that is wet to the consistency of mashed potatoes. I cap then plant my rooted plants. I simple use a old dessert plate and slowly add water pouring it on the plate to disperse it.

If I have to move a crypt I slowly wiggle it loose and I don't make much of a mess. Re-planting it is done with tweezers. Grasp by the roots and pul it into the substrate. When I transplant anything I root prune. I trim crypts back to 1 -1 1/2" length. So they really are just getting past my 1" cap. Root pruning stimulates new root growth.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

thefisherman said:


> it gets cloudy for all of the above even with a cap lol. the good thing is this is a plant only tank for now.
> 
> i was basically potting my crypts for my emersed setup and had a bunch of soil mix leftover, so i threw it in this tank. i shoved a bunch of throw away cuttings in there and tbh it was soo cloudy i couldn't even tell if the plants were alive or melted. plus i had all this bouyant soil particles (even now) suspended in the water. totally muddy looking.
> 
> ...


I have two 40g breeders in the next month specifically for crypts, and I like the idea of 'dirt cheap'. It would probably cost me at least $200 for substrate if I went the prepared substrate route. I would much rather spend that cash on rare plants!


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

DogFish said:


> I fill with MTS that is wet to the consistency of mashed potatoes. I cap then plant my rooted plants. I simple use a old dessert plate and slowly add water pouring it on the plate to disperse it.
> 
> If I have to move a crypt I slowly wiggle it loose and I don't make much of a mess. Re-planting it is done with tweezers. Grasp by the roots and pul it into the substrate. When I transplant anything I root prune. I trim crypts back to 1 -1 1/2" length. So they really are just getting past my 1" cap. Root pruning stimulates new root growth.


What do you use for a cap? Also, some of my crypts have HUGE root systems, and when I pull them up to move to another tank or re-scape I end up pulling up quite a lot of substrate with them. How can I prevent that?


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## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

wetworks said:


> I have two 40g breeders in the next month specifically for crypts, and I like the idea of 'dirt cheap'. It would probably cost me at least $200 for substrate if I went the prepared substrate route. I would much rather spend that cash on rare plants!


totally dude... i mean prepared subsrates do have its upside. like if uprooted and rearranged as much as i do in my 20L i'm sure i will have a perpetually cloudy tank lol. but its way too expensive especially if you go big.

they say you need at least 2lbs per gallon i think of substrate. so for my 20L i bought 2X 20Lb bags that cost like $35/ea. and thats just eco. can you imagine trying to fill a 100g or in your case 2X 40g with aquasoil!? i feel the hole in my pocket lol

i used regular pool filter sand. its like $7-$8 per 50lb bag. you can also use the black diamond blasting media, which is similar in size to PFS but black. 

i think the key with soil is just to be careful when uprooting and/or re-scaping. even with my eco complete... a mature substrate will always have mulm and poop and stuff kicked up (which isn't necessarily bad). when i do my larger setup i will probably follow the MTS method many dirt tankers use. i think adding clay will help lessen turbidity.

i saw my friend take down his 75g MTS and even a 3yr old substrate will result in super cloudy water. i don't think its something you can get away from.


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Everyone go outside and find a plant. Tree, bush, weed, flower, crop...etc (above or under water). Once you locate said plant, dig around and find out what it's planted in...report back. 






My money is on dirt.


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