# Lot's of Low Tech Angel Tanks (56K warning)



## Trallen44

Looks like they are doing great so far!


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## sunfire99

BB looks kinda mean. Red eye and all.......lol Looking good. Good luck with the wigglers, and keep us posted.


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## wkndracer

We have wigglers! 80% have released and once down into the plants they're lost to the waiting clown loach that's taken up station keeping in the corner under the plants where the parents don't see him. That's fine too because 200 baby angels is 180 too many! Besides in the gravel they won't survive either. The ones healthy enough to stay put until free swimming stage will be moved by the parents at that time. Great to see them succeed after two complete loses. Can't get picture without drama (I tried Tim) 72 hrs. and what left I'll chase with the camera if there are any.


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## Trallen44

Congrats!! How did you know I would say something about that? LOL Actually I know they are so small I can't get pictures of them, so I wouldn't ask you too either. I might try next time though. I guess if you end up with more than 20, you can always send some to me and Steve. LOL Glad to see you are having some sucess!


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## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> We have wigglers! 80% have released and once down into the plants they're lost to the waiting clown loach that's taken up station keeping in the corner under the plants where the parents don't see him. That's fine too because 200 baby angels is 180 too many! Besides in the gravel they won't survive either. The ones healthy enough to stay put until free swimming stage will be moved by the parents at that time. Great to see them succeed after two complete loses. Can't get picture without drama (I tried Tim) 72 hrs. and what left I'll chase with the camera if their are any.


Very nice!!:thumbsup: They're learning. Chase them suckers down when they start swimming and post a pic for the trouble maker.


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> very nice!!:thumbsup: They're learning. Chase them suckers down when they start swimming and post a pic for the trouble maker.


lmao


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## wkndracer

The parents are grouping the wigglers already tonight. I didn't think they would start this early but they're balling them up in a bunch. Both are being great parents. Leaving a room light on tonight as there's no lunar lights on the low tech.

The clump in the center was created between 8 and 10pm. The tiny tails are just visible.

Steve watch your fish after introducing those plants as they might contain Angel Viagra.


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## Trallen44

Great pic!!! I didn't know that they could get them to stick like that as wigglers. Learn something new everyday. My fish have always spit them into a pot and they just wiggle on the bottom. Congrats on them being such great parents!


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## sunfire99

Updates Mike!! We need updates.....


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## Tex Gal

Congrats on the new babies! It's so much fun to watch them parent. I guess fish aren't that stupid after all! Smarter than some people when it comes to child care.


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## sunfire99

Tex Gal said:


> Congrats on the new babies! It's so much fun to watch them parent. I guess fish aren't that stupid after all! Smarter than some people when it comes to child care.


LMAO!! So true!! I know some of those parents.


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> Updates Mike!! We need updates.....


x2! I know he is just too busy with the BB and her new tank mate laying eggs though. LOL 



sunfire99 said:


> LMAO!! So true!! I know some of those parents.


x2!!


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## wkndracer

Life is sure busy these days.
These first two are yesterday then today. 
The eggs on the side that were infertile were removed after the wigglers emerged.



















These next two are the same, yesterday then today. 
Close up as I could get. You can see the development and 
separation of the eyes in 24hrs. 

















My wife counts between 40 and 50 tonight.


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## Trallen44

Awesome pics!!!


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## Tex Gal

These are so adorable!


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## wkndracer

*Day 5 of the WIGGLERS*

Mom and Dad are still doing a jam up job but the juniors are spreading out early. Some are cornering on the tank sealant. Two more days before they're suppose to swim so they're premmies!

Just the two best close ups tonight.








The eyes now looked fully developed and red is appearing in the gills.









The 10g quarantine tank is no longer that its now a Refugium (is that a word) its plumbed in with the 55g piggy backing the water column via siphon (old pump intake that skipped across the patio not long ago) and power head return. I did this once before as a grow out tank for babies.

OLDER PHOTO. One of the parents of the current spawn and *BB* are in there.
(Little did I know)









ANYWAY its a brand new day and different babies. BRIGS! From Cocobid 
Thanx Ms. Karen! Eight of them in a sand sub with weeds of their own.









Made a jail lid so no escapes!









Same old cheap hood still works.









Messy cluster F*&%$ plumbing corner hidden by a nice clump of Java Moss.
The spray bar return makes a real nice current flow in the 55g. (I'd forgotten that)


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## wkndracer

Timing is everything! The parents have moved all the babies off the magnet to the tank sealant so picture posts maybe done for awhile.


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## Trallen44

wkndracer said:


> Timing is everything! The parents have moved all the babies off the magnet to the tank sealant so picture posts maybe done for awhile.


Glad you got the pics you did. Now you need to teach them to keep the babies where you can take pics for the viewing audience that demands pics. :hihi: I like the way you have things set up there. When do you plan on moving the babies over?


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## sunfire99

Those are some ugly babies Mike.:eek5: That's just the cold hard truth.:wink: 


Nice job, and love the closeups. :thumbsup: Wish my camera would take a better picture, or I could take a better picture with my camera. 

Got the plants you sent me today. They look good!! The QT tank inhabitants thank you also. They hang out in the moss I put on top of the large single rock that's in there.


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## wkndracer

sunfire99 said:


> Those are some ugly babies Mike.:eek5: That's just the cold hard truth.:wink:


Yeah I know,,, kinda like the ugly duckling/swan thing, golds always look like snails until they're fins grow out.


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## wkndracer

*I didn't lie I was just wrong Day 6 more pics*

O K more pics day 6

Momma did not like the camera today. 









Tank sealant is still home at the moment.


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## wkndracer

*Free swimming burst Day 7*

When the tank lights came up this morning the babies burst out of the corner and swarmed around the parents. This lasted for about ten minutes then clustered back in the corner by the parents. We went ahead and pulled eighteen and put them in the 10g with the baby snails.

The pictures are slightly out of focus for two reasons 1) the babies almost disappear in the flash. 2) when I took the first picture (with flash) they freaked out really bad and spread through nearly the whole tank. I've posted that first picture last.


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## sunfire99

Looks like you have grow out candidates Mike. Good job.


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> Those are some ugly babies Mike.:eek5: That's just the cold hard truth.:wink:


You know you want some of them!!! :hihi:



sunfire99 said:


> Nice job, and love the closeups. :thumbsup: Wish my camera would take a better picture, or I could take a better picture with my camera.


We all wish that!! It just takes time, and taking lots and lots of pictures and only using 1 or 2. 



sunfire99 said:


> Got the plants you sent me today. They look good!! The QT tank inhabitants thank you also. They hang out in the moss I put on top of the large single rock that's in there.


So what do you have hanging out in the moss? 

Hey Mike,

These are some awesome pics! It is really cool to see some of the raising of fish documented. I have never seen the angels from eggs to larger in pics before. You know that now you are going to have to take at least one pic everyday so we can follow their growth and development till they look like angels. LOL Congrats on a job well done with these!!


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## wkndracer

*Back to the low tech side DIY*

My home office is all clear finished oak and I extended that right into the tank backgrounds. When I removed the HOB from the 10g tank the oak plywood wouldn't stay in place. Added a cross plate of 1/4" oak plywood and velcro double adhesive strips and it's back on the back.


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## wkndracer

*More day 7 Pics*

Before the baby mongers blast me for 'non baby related pictures' here's more of day seven. 

The parents have moved the fry to a Val leaf more center tank.









One always guarding the other tending 24/7 what parents.









Refugium (I still ask the question; is that a REAL word?) group is intermingling and eating (not each other yet)


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## sunfire99

Very cool!! When are they ready for adoption? 

Tim, just some Zebras in the QT for cycling. I'm expecting them to give birth to Angels though with Mike's weeds in the tank now.


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## wkndracer

sunfire99 said:


> Very cool!! When are they ready for adoption?


I already have a foam lined box sitting under the desk with your name on it. As I just so happen to have your address from the RAOK plants. _*Can you hear the sinister laugh and creepy organ music in the background?*_

(you need to leave a PTrader on that if you were happy with the plants by the way as there were chain swords in that box with the angel Viagra)


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## sunfire99

I'll figure out that Ptrader feedback sooner or later. I haven't had much luck with it. Keep that box with my name on it. By the time those guys get grown up, my tank will be ready for them.:thumbsup: Keep us posted. I'm with Tim, watching the little buggers grow will be cool.


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> Very cool!! When are they ready for adoption?
> 
> Tim, just some Zebras in the QT for cycling. I'm expecting them to give birth to Angels though with Mike's weeds in the tank now.


I knew you wanted some!!! LMAO I think it is possible with all the eggs he has in the tanks.



wkndracer said:


> I already have a foam lined box sitting under the desk with your name on it. As I just so happen to have your address from the RAOK plants. _*Can you hear the sinister laugh and creepy organ music in the background?*_


Uh oh!!! He has my address now too!! But I can always return the favor, I have tons of kribs here! LOL


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## wkndracer

Trallen44 said:


> Uh oh!!! He has my address now too!! But I can always return the favor, I have tons of kribs here! LOL


Careful there guy! I think interstate fish slinging is illegal.


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## Trallen44

wkndracer said:


> Careful there guy! I think interstate fish slinging is illegal.


Nothing illegal about a RAOK of sorts. LOL "Officer I just wanted a good home for the poor little guys. Have you seen how great his tanks look? If you were a fish you would love to live there too!" :hihi:


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## wkndracer

*Day 8*

Not a lot to give tonight, seems to be 40+ still. The parents are staying mid tank all day today. Throwing fits over the camera almost all day too. Tired of being movie stars already.

Mad Momma over the camera.


















The other guys without adult supervision came closer to the front.


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## sunfire99

Are the fry eating? If so, what are you giving them?


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## Trallen44

I think I can just start to see them changing shape. This is really cool!


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## chunkylover817

are u planning on moving them to a seperate tank??? i thought the adults would later eat their fry..


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## wkndracer

chunkylover817 said:


> are u planning on moving them to a seperate tank??? i thought the adults would later eat their fry..


Only immature pairs eat they're own young once hatched or if driven by panic. Once raised they ignore them then chase them away along with everyone else when they spawn again.



Trallen44 said:


> I think I can just start to see them changing shape. This is really cool!


We thought so too. (seeing an upper crowning of they're shape.)



sunfire99 said:


> Are the fry eating? If so, what are you giving them?


No brine shrimp eggs (on order) to put in the hatcher/feeder so we've been getting by with Hikari First Bites, O.S.I. red tiny bites, and Wardley Essentials small fry liquid food 'for all baby fish' (think the last one is junk)


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## Trallen44

I fed decapsulated brine shrimp eggs to most of my babies. That way I don't have to go through the hatching process.


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## wkndracer

*As of 5/11/09*

*I made rookie mistakes and should have known better. *Talking with my wife and telling her what things are looking like is a mistake. Telling her at 10:30 or 11:15 that NO3 is spiking and you need to change the water does nothing about the NO3 levels. The alarm set to go off at 5am so I can go to work does nothing about the NO3. When NO3 readings are exceeding 30ppm and your overfeeding to keep all the fish from looking at your fry NO3 goes up faster than the space shuttle. I think by ignoring NO3 I killed the fry.:icon_roll I didn't ignore it, I didn't do anything about it fast enough.

The spawn occured before the WC last Sunday,,, so no WC. The spawn was huge and the fish usually freak when water is siphoned out of the tank so no WC. Nitrate was at >20ppm when the spawn occured and I overfed to distract the other fish. I did major changes on all three other tanks. The soil sub tank three times during this 8 day period and never touched the 55g with the fry. Until it was too late.

Have about 5 left. There were 8 when I dropped the water level and only 3 after filling. When I fed last night the parents both swam to the food and left them.

Do most of this again in 2-3 weeks.


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## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> *I made rookie mistakes and should have known better. *Talking with my wife and telling her what things are looking like is a mistake. Telling her at 10:30 or 11:15 that NO3 is spiking and you need to change the water does nothing about the NO3 levels. The alarm set to go off at 5am so I can go to work does nothing about the NO3. When NO3 readings are exceeding 30ppm and your overfeeding to keep all the fish from looking at your fry NO3 goes up faster than the space shuttle. I think by ignoring NO3 I killed the fry.:icon_roll I didn't ignore it, I didn't do anything about it fast enough.
> 
> The spawn occured before the WC last Sunday,,, so no WC. The spawn was huge and the fish usually freak when water is siphoned out of the tank so no WC. Nitrate was at >20ppm when the spawn occured and I overfed to distract the other fish. I did major changes on all three other tanks. The soil sub tank three times during this 8 day period and never touched the 55g with the fry. Until it was too late.
> 
> Have about 5 left. There were 8 when I dropped the water level and only 3 after filling. When I fed last night the parents both swam to the food and left them.
> 
> Do most of this again in 2-3 weeks.


That sucks. Too many tanks, so little time. You know the horny little devils will spawn again soon. Sorry to hear that happened.


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## wkndracer

sunfire99 said:


> That sucks. *Too many tanks, so little time.* You know the horny little devils will spawn again soon. Sorry to hear that happened.


That's a fact.

"Do most of this again in 2-3 weeks"
Setting up new tanks, (even low techs) eat up the clock. The 110g sits untouched in the garage while I scramble to keep up with everything else but it will all calm down when they're set up and stablized. The soil sub tank is settling down a little so things will get there.


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## Trallen44

Sorry man, that sucks. But it happens to the best of us. Like you said, you will get another chance soon enough. But this time around was fun while it lasted!!!


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## wkndracer

*Two here in the 10g 3 MIA in the 55g*

Didn't post right away waiting to see if they stabilized and ate which they did.

Day 10


















Day 12


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## Centromochlus

Loved reading through your journal, beautiful angelfish and great pics! :thumbsup:

Few questions:
I have a pair of angelfish, and they've spawned probably 20+ times but when i wake up the next day all of the eggs are gone. I heard it takes them a while to get the hang of breeding, but do you have any tips or suggestions? They're in an 85 gallon planted by themselves right now.

Thanks


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## wkndracer

AzFishKid said:


> Loved reading through your journal, beautiful angelfish and great pics! :thumbsup:
> Few questions:
> I have a pair of angelfish, and they've spawned probably 20+ times but when i wake up the next day all of the eggs are gone. I heard it takes them a while to get the hang of breeding, but do you have any tips or suggestions? They're in an 85 gallon planted by themselves right now.
> Thanks


To answer your questions I have questions of my own. 

_*Have you actually watched a spawn occur? Seen egg laying and fertilizing passes?*_ If not they may be false spawns with two females acting the part then eating the eggs. Males when making passes slightly cloud the water, enough you can see it drift over the eggs. 
_*Do they have any light in the room with the tank lights out?*_ If not total darkness can be the issue. After mine spawned I left one room light on because the tank doesn’t have lunar lights. In an 85g by themselves does that mean no other fish, snails, etc? In a dark tank clown loaches, catfish, snails anything in the tank will scent the eggs and want to eat them. Eggs are an excellent protein source with or without the bacon and toast. Angels will protect a fertile spawn to the point of pushing every living thing to the other end of the tank. 20+ spawns should have produced a hatch. The overnight disappearing eggs every time leads me to believe its false spawning.

My breeding pair are prepping the mag float again already.


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## wkndracer

*Greeted with this coming home today*

They're at it again already. 13 days between spawns.
Female making egg runs.









Male doing his job.









And me doing my job spawn or not.
Did a 25g WC and vacuumed the gravel removing mum and leaf litter tonight. They took it well and nobody bit me (I’m surprised). The eggs are still in place even with me moving the mag float when the water level dropped. The next 48hrs. will tell the tale if the WC affected the eggs. If they don’t go white then here we go again.


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## sunfire99

Fingers crossed for the would be Angels.:angel:


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## Trallen44

Really cool pics!!! How about a update to let us know how things are going?


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## Trallen44

So how are the eggs after 4 days?


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## sunfire99

Trallen44 said:


> So how are the eggs after 4 days?


x2:thumbsup: If things went well, you should have wigglers in a couple days?


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## Trallen44

Steve, I think our next update may be a box of fish in the mail!:hihi:


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## wkndracer

Trallen44 said:


> Really cool pics!!! How about a update to let us know how things are going?


Sorry for dropping the ball on the updates.



Trallen44 said:


> So how are the eggs after 4 days?


Same as the first spawn with adhesion issues for the female. I pulled the mag float and using a scotchbrite scrubbed the stuffing out of it. 


sunfire99 said:


> x2:thumbsup: If things went well, you should have wigglers in a couple days?


About 72hrs is the average but tank temp affects it.



Trallen44 said:


> Steve, I think our next update may be a box of fish in the mail!:hihi:


Fishbomb, fishbomb, The fishbombs in the mailbox LA, LA, LA, what? I can't here you LA, LA, LA, what do you mean no room LA, LA, LA buy another tank LA, LA, LA

The last two moved to the 10g are still there and growing. They've figured out the lazer focus on the camera and don't like the red light from it.


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## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> Fishbomb, fishbomb, The fishbombs in the mailbox LA, LA, LA, what? I can't here you LA, LA, LA, what do you mean no room LA, LA, LA buy another tank LA, LA, LA


But honey, this nice man sent me Angel fish in the mail I just HAVE to have another tank now.:icon_roll That's the story you need to be practicing Tim. 

I'm already rehearsing it.


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## wkndracer

*Last two day 18*

Lonely Little Angel









Lonely Little Angel pigging out on algae (see it is good for something)









Lonely Little Angels eat snail slime too.


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## sunfire99

Looking more like an Angel now. It's got a BIG mouth for such a little guy. Nice pictures!!:thumbsup:


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> But honey, this nice man sent me Angel fish in the mail I just HAVE to have another tank now.:icon_roll That's the story you need to be practicing Tim.
> 
> I'm already rehearsing it.


I know it is going to cost me another house to get another tank. So I have to wait a bit yet. But I am working on rearangeing things in the tanks here to get some more room. I just need to get rid of a bunch of kribs first.


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## TheCryptKeeper

wow.. really nice pictures indeed! cool to see them doing well. a friend of mine breeds angels and he uses a small mop head that he puts into the tank at the top and the mom lays the eggs in there and when they hatch they are protected in there with plenty of hiding.

you can let me know too when they are ready for adoption! I would be in for a pair. Great job


Ken


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## wkndracer

pH 7.0, 9dGH, 4dKH, NO3 20ppm, PO4 1.0ppm, NO2 0.0, NH3/NH4 0.0

Dose 9 grams of K2SO4, Fe .6ppm, 5 grams of CaCO3 and just walk away :icon_mrgr

Last WC 5/10/09 and none needed today! Bring on the spawning angels I'm ready roud:


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## Trallen44

Any new pics of the babies? Now that you have scuffed up the mag float, how about adding some fish viagra and getting another spawn going?:hihi: Just a thought. Glad you have the water back in great shape.


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## sunfire99

Mike,

Any news to report on the tanks? I know those Angels have spawned again by now. Is the surviving fry still doing well?


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> Mike,
> 
> Any news to report on the tanks? I know those Angels have spawned again by now. Is the surviving fry still doing well?


Yeah, what he said!!!


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## wkndracer

*Day 21 and Day 25*

Remaining pair are doing well.

Day 21 (5/24/09)



























They are VERY camera shy and hiding in the java moss. The transparent appearance is changing now but they are very hard to find in the moss and move away when you approach the tank.

Day 25 (5/28/09)
Fins (dorsal, anal and caudal) are now fully visible. Stripes are starting to form as the skin pigment develops.




























Baby Briggs snails (8) are doing great as well and eat veggies like little piglets. We are blanching yellow squash then cutting strips using plant weights to sink them in the tank. The snails just swarm it, sit and eat until its completely gone.










There has been disagreement of opinion on another thread of mine regarding pH, GH and snails. The Briggs, MTS and ramshorn snails I have here are doing great in >9dGH, >4dKH non injected tanks with a pH reading above 7. The MTS placed in my injected tanks died as did the ramshorn snails and apples when I lowered GH, KH, pH as follows 4dGH, 2dKH, 5.88-6.2pH. Thats proof enough for me to maintain higher levels.


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## sunfire99

Looking good!! I think the snail losses may be related to ph also. My gh is at 5, and kh at 3 and the MTS I added the same time you did are doing well with ph a little over 7. I have noticed they tend to collect up in the filter bag in the sump though. I changed it out a couple days ago, and found ~2 dozen in the bag. I dump them in a shallow bowl with some water to make sure they are alive, then collect the ones that crawl away from the pile. So far I've done this twice and all have still been fine. It will at least make a simple way to control their population, because there were many many babies that I took out of the bag as well.


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## Trallen44

Cool pics of the babies. They are looking great! I think I am in a dry spell at the moment from a lack of being able to do water changes. But hopefully that can change soon. Great pic of the snails too! I wish I had the problem of not being able to keep snails!


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## wkndracer

*Day 28*

Man! Will I pay for being up this late doing this tomorrow at work! :icon_eek:
While I was driving myself clinically insane on Excel 2007 putting together tank logging spread sheets. (including CO2 and Mg calculators) My wife showed me how to get great baby angel pictures! 

This is where they eat. Java moss makes a great cafeteria! 









All she (my wife) ever say's is "Oh they're soooo cute!!!"
(If I get anymore tanks it will KILL ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)









Can she take GREAT pictures or what?









Heres one with the babies hovering over a GIANT *dime size* Briggs!







LMAO









You can almost see the scales on the little guy! My wife is now the official photographer of the baby angels.


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## wkndracer

The new camera pro was at it again tonight.
Day 29


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## Trallen44

Great pics!! You can really see them changing into angels now! Tell your wife to keep up the great job of taking pics! :thumbsup: I think you ought to have her go over to Steve's so we can get a good pic of his tank. :hihi:


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## comet

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread!!! Have tears in my eyes looking at those two little ones that made it!....either that or it is because it is almost 2 am. and I couldn't get away from this! Great stories and pictures!!! Thanks for sharing.


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## sunfire99

Trallen44 said:


> Great pics!! You can really see them changing into angels now! Tell your wife to keep up the great job of taking pics! :thumbsup: I think you out to have her go over to Steve's so we can get a good pic of his tank. :hihi:


LMAO:redface: Maybe _my_ wife can take some better pictures. I'll give that a try.


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## sunfire99

Awesome pictures Mike.:thumbsup: They really are looking like Angels now.


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## Trallen44

sunfire99 said:


> LMAO:redface: Maybe _my_ wife can take some better pictures. I'll give that a try.


LMAO Couldn't hurt any!!


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## wkndracer

*Day33*

They seem to change faster everyday.









They both take after the mother fish having multiple stripes










Also all the photos today were tank top, just below the surface so they are not hiding as much


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## sunfire99

I agree with you on them changing faster. They really are taking on the characteristics now. Maybe it's not a huge deal to those that have grown out Angels before, but I find it fascinating watching their development. Thanks for the updated pictures.


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## wkndracer

*Overall progress*

While this thread has mostly turned to the spawn activities of my angels the tanks have really turned out to my liking. Piggy backing the 10g off the 55g water column was done for grow out purposes but really turned into a setup I enjoy. The sand and sprinkle of fourite has done well by the plants. So much so I'll be trimming some today. The siphon tube having foam on the intake and the old grill intake on the discharge makes it totally baby / shrimp safe on both sides. 
Since I no longer work out of this home office filling the blue print area of the long desk / cabinet area with the two aquariums is perfect. The night effect rivals my enjoyment of the bookend 75g tanks in the living room.










Yesterday a piece of natural slate was added and the pair didn't like it at all. They shied away from the corner all day. Last night the preferred mag float was replaced for a time and back they came. I'll remove it again later.









Refugium is really coming into its own as a planted tank.









_*BEFORE*_ I get blasted for posting without a baby picture heres one. Day 34. The way the fins look already I'm betting the veil gene transfered dominant.


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## Trallen44

Would we do that? LMAO Tanks look great, and the baby is looking very cool!! You have done good!!


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## wkndracer

Trallen44 said:


> Would we do that? LMAO Tanks look great, and the baby is looking very cool!! You have done good!!


Hey Tim! And YES you would :biggrin:


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## Trallen44

Well, I think Steve would anyways!! LOL I am trying to behave a little at the moment. Moment being the key word!! Glad things have settled down a bit for you and that you can spend a little more time on your tanks and on here. I always enjoy the updates!


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## sunfire99

Trallen44 said:


> Well, I think Steve would anyways!! LOL I am trying to behave a little at the moment. Moment being the key word!! Glad things have settled down a bit for you and that you can spend a little more time on your tanks and on here. I always enjoy the updates!


I think Tim is trying to blame his troublemaking tendencies on me. 

The tanks look great Mike!!:thumbsup:


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## Trallen44

:icon_roll.................................................................:hihi:


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## wkndracer

*Udated activities*

Tonight they spawned again and in a big way. :icon_mrgr It started about 1800 with both still making passes. This is one egg laying mutha of a fish. :drool: 









This is the first since adding the slate and forth since the remaining pair were born. The mag float got them started but the overrun is on the slate and after the hatch the mag float leaves for good.
We're out to the Cape for the shuttle launch right after work so wigglers should greet our return Sunday.
Here's the latest on the last two.
















You can clearly see the pattern difference between the two now not just the sizing.
















Can't keep the tank too clean because these two are committed vegetarians. Still not chasing the flake.


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## wkndracer

Just a quick update before hauling butt for the cape. All eggs appear to be sticking (slate and mag float) only one is white at 24hrs. so all should be fertile.


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## Trallen44

Congrats!! Looking great!!


----------



## sunfire99

Looks great Mike.:thumbsup: The little ones are awesome looking now. Do you think that pair will figure out where to lay without the magnet? They seem to have developed a pattern there.


----------



## Trallen44

So do you have wigglers? How was the launch? I think it would be cool to be able to watch one in person some time. I know it is cool to see it re enter to land in FL at night. Big red streak across the sky here in TX.


----------



## Youjin

this is so cool...i just spend the last hour reading this thru'....thanks for sharing


----------



## wkndracer

*Updated events since Friday*

Well the launch got scrubbed as I’m sure most know already. Tent camping in Florida, in June, at Jetty Park was just the experience I thought it would be. Enough said and not again. 
The wigglers were moved to the Amazon Sword center left of the rock pile when we arrived home. The plant growth is such that the clowns could hold station right under them and the parents couldn’t run them off. 









At my wife’s suggestion transfers were made with a turkey baster to the 10g refugium. BAD, BAD idea. I voiced a concern but conceded to her request.









What a surprise was in store for Sherry and to a degree myself. (Although less of one) Wigglers taste just like chicken and are a great source of protein. Until your bulging belly drags the bottom of the tank from your gluttony and you can’t swim anymore. Then the cannibalism might be the death of you. Both the developing babies went to 'wiggler fest'. Like Red Lobster's shrimp fest only little brothers and sisters on the menu.
Hope daily wanes on the one I bedded in the moss hoping he'd recover. No sightings as of yet and not for a lack of trying.
Little bloated gut guy that survived.









There is still a chance. Because in the 55g there are plenty of hiding spots. It's hard to find the little guy we know is in there.









Not my best pics to date but time pressure and hobbies don't mix. We're out at 1am for the cape again tonight for the 5:40am rescheduled launch.


----------



## Trallen44

Hate to hear about the canabolism, but I have had it happen to me too. Hopefully a few end up making it. I couldn't tell if all of the wigglers got ate or not. Have fun at the launch! Take some pics(well, have your wife take some pics). LMAO


----------



## wkndracer

Well the shuttle launch 'tanked' again due to 'leaky' plumbing. 
Good thing they're not plumbing an aquarium over new carpet. LOL
Drove over and back after working all day and 1 1/2 hrs. sleep so 5 hrs. driving and a wasted vacation day. Landed back home from my shuttle flight at 0545 and went into a coma until noon. At least I got some sleep without an alarm at the end of it. :thumbsup:

The survivor in the 55g is back to normal shape and crapped his basket ball belly out so he's not bound up. :redface: In the last two days his left ventral has broken but is still a stub so that should grow back. The breeding pair having lost the hatch to the baster are prepping the slate off and on again.

Still have some wigglers (guess a dozen) that should be free swimming but in a little over a month the moss and other plants in the refugium have spread to where they don't have too.


----------



## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> Well the shuttle launch 'tanked' again due to 'leaky' plumbing.
> Good thing they're not plumbing an aquarium over new carpet. LOL


And that same government just can't wait to run more stuff for you. LOL Glad to hear the one guy made it through.


----------



## wkndracer

*New batch started score now 1-1-???*

Between 1330 and 1630 today. Lost count of round what with these two.

All on the slate today.









Water change Sunday along with a plant trimming. So water parameters should be good for 14-21 days.









Moved the java fern out of the front corner. No hiding spot under it for the egg loaches.


----------



## Trallen44

Congrats on the new batch Mike!


----------



## finfan

just read this thread, very nice, love your fish/fry.. i have a pair of paired koi angels that have been spawning for about a year now, at first they were in a community tank and they would lose all eggs to all the hungry mounths, but recently i have moved them to their own tank and they have had three spawns there w/o any success, everytime all the eggs turn white in a day or two, they seem to be fanning them all the time but obviously that is not working, do you have any advice on how i can help them? 

here's a picture of them from a several months ago


----------



## wkndracer

Very nice looking fish! :thumbsup: 
I’ll throw out what I know.
The fanning of the eggs is to provide oxygen rich water. 
When the eggs turn white it means they are infertile. 
The water parameters must be right (or very close) or they wouldn’t spawn at all. 
Can you see a difference in their tubes prior to and during the spawn? Females have notably wider, larger tubes. Males just show a bump more or less. :icon_redf 
For repeated spawns to be all going white and not hatching at least some wigglers is very strange. During the actual spawn activity you should see the female make one to two (can be several) passes depositing eggs then drift off a bit letting the male in to fertilize then repeating this pattern over and over. 
The egg stream is very easy to see but the sperm pass has the fish very close and often you won’t be able to see the fluid. I hope some of this helps.


----------



## Trallen44

Hey Mike,

When do you expect to have wigglers?


----------



## wkndracer

Wigglers are here (48hrs.)  Using algae wafers as bait I've netted and transferred two clown loaches in two days into another tank. :biggrin: The five otto's in this tank bother no one so they're cool. The inventory is 2 upside down catfish, 5 otto's, 1 flying fox, three more clowns to go and the mated pair. Slowly I've transferred fish one and two at a time giving them the tank.


----------



## Trallen44

Cool!! I think that is a great idea moving the other fish. So when is your wife available to take pics for us to see? :hihi:


----------



## wkndracer

about 3 hrs. sleep the last two nights fighting with the water in my PPS polluted hi tech tanks. pics maybe tomorrow night. everything is reset and nobody died. my love for the low tech approach grows with each passing water change.


----------



## sunfire99

wkndracer said:


> about 3 hrs. sleep the last two nights fighting with the water in my PPS polluted hi tech tanks. pics maybe tomorrow night. everything is reset and nobody died. my love for the low tech approach grows with each passing water change.


Mike, glad to hear you have wigglers again. Is PPS not getting it done for you, or just an adjustment phase?


----------



## wkndracer

*Pics last night.*

Got another clown out last night :thumbsup: It was the smallest of the group and the one always station keeping in the weeds under the spawns. If my count is correct two more to go. The largest and smartest though. Get near the tank or just walk in the room and they go in the putrefied wood pile.
What has worked is just leaving a net in the one open corner baiting the corner with algae pellets.









The parents moved the group again to the amazon sword.



























Current shot of the 10g. The last free swimmer here is gone. The plants were trimmed and tucked making room for new growth after adding root tabs and another sand layer. The java moss was filling the tank and I pitched 95% of it into the scrubs leaving a clump at the intake.











sunfire99 said:


> Mike, glad to hear you have wigglers again. Is PPS not getting it done for you, or just an adjustment phase?


The calculator may be flawed I'm not sure *or* the old garbage in garbage out thing. I'm tracking my inputs on a spread sheet looking for a pattern. I started a string over on APC where the system came from. 
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...62533-wkndracer-trying-start-pps-classic.html


----------



## wkndracer

Sunday morning is a GREAT morning to be in the home office! One of the largest and last remaining two clown loach's was going head to head with the angels this morning! Both parents were between him and the spawn mid tank face to face and the clown ignored me as I approached the tank. Eyeball to eyeball all three fish missed the net entering the tank then the loach saw it and hauled butt but I was between him and the rock pile. He shot around the tank to go into the front hole in the pile and ended up in the second net thats been sitting in the tank most of the week. Yahoo!:iamwithst He now "sleeps with the fishes" in the 75L living room tank. 

One left to leave :biggrin:


----------



## Trallen44

Awesome pics Mike. Congrats on getting another clown loach. I know I have had to nearly take a tank apart to catch some fish. Keep up the great work on these tanks, can't wait to see more babies survive and grow.


----------



## wkndracer

My net placement was modified prior to main lights out last night. I added a second net in front of the rock/wood pile. When my honey let the pups out the back door this morning the last clown was hunting angel fry and on the second pass through the room she spooked him into a panic run for the pile and right into the net. He has joined my now BULGING population of Clown Loaches in the 75L.

Here are a couple of pics from yesterday afternoon. Day 5 from the egg. Day 3 from the hatch.




































The parents moved the fry back to the slate last night and I’m assuming in defense. The number looks to be about 50+ today and down about 30-40% from yesterday. Day 4 as wigglers. Free swimming is any time now.


----------



## sunfire99

40 or 50 swimmers with no Loaches to graze on them. Looks like you need more tanks soon Mike.:icon_eek: Cool pictures, and looking great. Thanks for the updates.:thumbsup:


----------



## wkndracer

*Free swimmers.*

Free swimming today. Day 7 since the spawn and day 5 since the hatch.






























































With the tank cleared of loaches the parents keep the whole batch this time. :thumbsup:
They have been VERY relaxed since the last clown was transfered traveling the whole tank instead of staying bunched up.


----------



## Trallen44

Looking great Mike! I do believe moving the loaches was the perfect thing!!


----------



## blackandyellow

Your breeding pair of Angels is gorgeous, that´s just what I want for my new setup tank. You just brought me many good memories of 10 years ago when I had my 55 gal tank at my parents with 6 adult angels (2 females and 4 males). Both females would lay eggs together with the 4 males subsequently running to fertilize... then when they were done they ate them all! They did this every 15 days all summer long! back in 1998... but I will never forget them.

Your male looks identical to my favorite male of the group. Just love the wild type males in breeding dress with the dark lines and red eyes!


----------



## Trallen44

So how are all the babies doing Mike?


----------



## wkndracer

Hey Tim!,
Just returned from 8 days in WVa to fryless tanks. The house sitter told us we had a spawn the Friday we left but 5 days later they disappeared. The 14 we transferred before leaving vanished the same day so no clue. The water parameters aren't the culprit because everything tests good today.

Pics taken after the testing. They'll spawn again soon I'm sure as the slate prep continues.


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## Trallen44

Hey Mike, hope you had a great vacation. That stinks about all the fry being gone. But I am sure you will have another spawn soon. I think there is something in yur water down there. LOL


----------



## wkndracer

LOL Yup! Egged the slate tonight :icon_eek: still making passes too. So start the clock because here I go again and with my wife's class reunion taking us out of town next weekend.


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## Trallen44

So wigglers tomorrow?


----------



## wkndracer

UGH! first time this has happened since the angel Viagra was first added to the water. Full intact spawn this morning and nobody home tonight. :icon_frow
It will be another week now LOL.
I think after what we saw in activity the last couple of nights I'll go after the flying fox but that means pulling the rocks for the chase.


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## Trallen44

Mike have you thought about pulling the slate once they spawn and putting it in a bare bottom 10 gal. tank with a sponge filter and see what happens?


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## sunfire99

Looking great Mike!! Now, where do I buy the Angel Viagra? :icon_lol: I think Tim has an idea there if you really want to grow them out. Of course once grown out you have to find them homes.


----------



## wkndracer

Trallen44 said:


> Mike have you thought about pulling the slate once they spawn and putting it in a bare bottom 10 gal. tank with a sponge filter and see what happens?


Come on guy's thats a been there done that and as a breeding generator of fish for sale I'd do that. This makes for as better thread too :hihi:


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## Trallen44

I see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You just want this thread to be like a soap opera!! LMAO THey have eggs. Will they ever make it to adulthood?!?!?!?!? Oh no, the loaches are attacking!! LOL Yeah it makes for a great thread read! I gotta cause some trouble, I think I have been to nice lately. LOL I knew I was feeling off for some reason. Feeling much better now!! :hihi:


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## wkndracer

Not a soap opera but a mini survivor series without the whinning losers because you really can't tell if they're in the poop or not. Just can't find them. :icon_conf


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## wkndracer

Well yesterday at 1630 I was passing though on my way to mow the yard. Checking the tank at a glance seeing the pair doing they're on again, off again slate cleaning. At 1800 a full egg spread was present. Still there this morning at 0530. :biggrin:


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## wkndracer

Hatch started about 1330 today with ten dropping off the slate (my wife was home for lunch). By 1630 they're all hatched.
Tank temp. 83F 46hrs from completed spawn to full hatch.


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## Trallen44

That is cool


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## wkndracer

*Pics from another server UGH*

Still can't load on TPTIH so I started another membership so I can load 'em up.
Spawn on 7/21/09









Hatched shots taken today. so,,, Day #2 and what a bunch of wigglers!









Closer shot.









Even closer :hihi:


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## monkeyruler90

danggg thats a huge batch!!! can you imagine if they all make it?


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## wkndracer

*Lotta wigglers*

Yeah its a bunch :eek5: This is one fertile pair. :tongue: Showing signs of being parents raisers too. My wife was determined to make a count and came up with 1000+ eggs and insists counting 300 wigglers based on the photo while they were still on the slate. The parents moved them last night into the foliage mid tank so further counting is impossible. With gravel, plants and what not mortality is very high. Barring damage to the parents we're leaving the spawn with them and watching.


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## wkndracer

*OMG what a spawn !*

OMG  what a spawn. 
Free swimming started today with about 10 fry trying to wander the tank at 1330 when Sherry came home to let Dozer out at lunch.
Now they are all over the tank! No earthly idea how many this time! 
Eggs 7/21, wigglers 7/23, free swimmers 7/27


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## Trallen44

Now you just got to keep them growing! LOL Looking great!


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## wkndracer

They stay with Mom and Pop this time unless parental stress looks to be too much for the pair. Sponges are over all filter intakes and the water is perfect for the start of a period of "don't touch it" 
Yesterday the tank tested TDS 361ppm, pH 7.1, NO3 7ppm, 4.5dKH, 12dGH (high but hey they were born into it), NO2 + NH3 both 0.0. Nothing else I can do but let 'em go. Looks to me like things are right this time for parent raising. :icon_mrgr


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## wkndracer

*Todays posts but yesterdays pics.*

O.K. somebody died last night but alive today (TPT website)
Last nights pics.


















I know I need to clean the glass but they get soo pi$$ed when I get close to the tank. 
(probably because we pulled so many babies away from them)


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## wkndracer

*Meanwhile in the living room 75R*

The disease is spreading again oh crap!


















But just like any good made for the internet drama somebody is cheating on somebody else!









One of my first in house born marbles has wrecked the happy gold veil home.









The shameless two timing hussy!


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## legomaniac89

You have some seriously happy angelfish. The wild-color pair is beautiful!


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## Trallen44

How are the babies doing?


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## wkndracer

Hey Tim,
While the hatch rate was great the babies had no interest in the offered foods.
The first bites and available diatoms the others ate were ignored by this batch and I have no idea why.
When my food order arrived the decapsulated brine shrimp eggs and fry starter were also ignored.

I have BS eggs here now from Angelsplus and will install the continuous hatch and feed on the next spawn 24hrs. after the eggs are laid. The parent fish are doing better each time. Now that the 55g is cleared of predators I want any that survive from this pair to be tank raised. 

Where I'm at now is waiting on the next spawn. I have NO doubt in a bare bottom 20g I could raise a full hatch but then what to do with them all? Wondering at this point what the food is in nature that wilds develop on as BBS are not in any river. Mosquito larva maybe? Anyway next hatch I'll be ready with BBS but they stay with the parents.


----------



## Kolkri

Very nice. Babies are fun.


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## wkndracer

*New Batch*

Didn't take my girl long.










Shrimp hatchery will be set up with the coming of the wigglers
so baby brine's will be in the tank from the very beginning of free swimmer.


----------



## Trallen44

Congrats!!! Ok Mike you are going to have to send me some of the fish viagra you are putting in your tanks so I can get some fish to spawning around here too.


----------



## boltp777

thats awesome that their breeding im so jealous i want a angel tank so bad =(


----------



## wkndracer

O.K. been reeeeaaaalllyyy busy lately.
This is what happens when you listen to trallen44.
I bought brine shrimp eggs from AngelsPlus and set up three hatcheries.
The product of a gold veil female and smoky veil male were deposited on sword leaves in the 75g right living room tank. I pulled the leaves and used one of my ever popular mag floats to pin them over a bubble wand in a 10g bare tank. 48hrs. later they hatched and 7 days had a boat load of free swimmers.










Meanwhile these two are asking if they are still mans best friend as they realize they are now seriously out numbered.










At the same time in the tank this string is about this is the latest batch at day #2 free swimming and eating fools three times a day. :help:










So Tim,,, how many do you want? I figure at day 13 on the 10g and day 7 on the 55/10 these will most all make it to finned and oh crap gotta go! :hihi:
75? 100??? how about a truck load RAOK (random act of Klobbering)


----------



## Coltonorr

wkndracer, 
that is sweet! that tanks looks awesome!
Congrats on the new additions...haha
And cool looking dogs, mine does the same thing, he just waits there as I trim and work in the tank.


----------



## Trallen44

I just start to feel a little better and I get slammed right away! I have been behaving myself lately just because I can't do anything else and I come back to this?!?!?!? LMFAO That is ok, you will have 3 more spawns this week! :hihi: Glad to see the angel factory is up and going!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Regloh

Hey that looks like another couple of great spawns 

Could you post some more detail on the hatcheries, I'm somewhat interested in starting live foods and want to see how that's done. 

This forum is starting to become a real problem for me  Every time I see some other interesting aspect of the hobby I develop this urge to try it. One of these days it will get me thrown out by my wife...


----------



## daverockssocks

Awesome journal. I have a breeding pair of angels but i never even get wigglers, the eggs disappear....

There's a khuli loach in the tank so I think he may be having midnight snacks.


----------



## comet

> Meanwhile these two are asking if they are still mans best friend as they realize they are now seriously out numbered.


Perfect statement to make when you look at the expression in their eyes. :icon_cry: Beautiful dogs.

And congrats on the many many _many_ fish you have now!
All your time and patience is paying off.


----------



## wkndracer

Sorry for the late return to reply things have been hectic. 
10g fry tank with I can't count how many baby angels. :tongue:
It has duck weed, a small seasoned air driven sponge filter, air stone bubble bar and a Tom's Continuous Hatch'n'feed all driven off a Whisper 10 pump. 7 days with only a 1 gallon water change yesterday. Water hardness and stable temp are most important to fry along with clean water.

With the lights on 18hrs. a day over the brine shrimp hatchery algae started covering the tank glass in 48hrs. but rather than UGH its yahoo :bounce:
Ammonia and nitrite remain undetectable and I've tested daily playing with this idea. The algae and duck weed are filtering the fish waste and fry also nibble on fresh green algae. Slimy green algae and fry. :smile:

Not my prettiest tank :icon_redf


















Zero losses through day #7









I'll post pics of the 55/10 group later :smile:


----------



## wkndracer

Regloh said:


> Hey that looks like another couple of great spawns


_Thanks, my fish try hard LOL.
_


Regloh said:


> Could you post some more detail on the hatcheries, I'm somewhat interested in starting live foods and want to see how that's done.


_Two Tom's Continuous Hactch'n'feed set ups in tank and a__ 2 liter bottle base sold on foster & smith._
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=4445
_Cost currently is $5.99 add to that the smallest air pump, check valve and an empty bottle, that's it.
I pull the airline off the check valve holding it above the hatchery water level allowing the shells and eggs to float and with a light low on the side of the bottle the shrimp go low. after about a minute I lower the tube into a brine shrimp net held over a plastic cup for about 5-10 seconds then reconnect the airline.

Carry the net to the sink for the fresh water rinse and put them in the tank. The water from the cup pours back in the hatchery. 
_ 
_A trick when you cut the bottom out of the 2 liter soda bottle,,, save it. The one I used was flared slightly before rounding for the bottom where the plastic was thicker. I cut it on the straight part and placed it upside down back on the now top of the hatchery to collect condensation and muffle the bubble noise as an inverted lid. I'm adding a small spoon of new eggs from AngelsPlus every other day.
*
This information was posted by Diana Walstad to the APC site and seems to work very well. The following is quoted from that string.*_

_I have found that I can reuse (many times) the same water that I cultivated the first batch of brine shrimp. 

You do not need to remove the egg shells. I suspect that the egg shells may be good. They probably provide many attachment sites for nitrifying bacteria that will reduce the ammonia levels in your little hatchery. Aerate your hatchery gently. There's no need to subject baby brine shrimp to a TORNADO. Feed the baby brine shrimp with a little flour or yeast extract. If the water gets cloudy or smelly, stop adding food; when the water is clear, add a little food.
You can add bread or any other kind of food to the water. Bacteria eat the food (organic matter) and start to multiply. Then you probably get protozoa eating the bacteria. The baby brine shrimp can eat the bacteria and/or the protozoa.

The main thing is to add enough food to encourage moderate bacterial growth. If bacterial growth is too great, it will kill the brine shrimp. Add enough food to have moderate cloudiness without smell. Let the brine shrimp eat the bacteria/protozoa until the water clears before you add more food. 

Fish breeders often talk about setting up new bottles every day with fresh saltwater. That makes raising brine shrimp much harder than it needs to be. There's nothing special that you need to add to kick start the bacteria growth that will keep your baby brine shrimp happy. 
You can add bread, yeast, flour, fry food, etc. Believe me, bacteria will eat just about anything.I've reused the same brineshrimp water for months (it should get better over time-- more nitrifying bacteria, protozoa, etc). The used egg shells will provide more surface area for these little critters, so there's no need to remove the old shrimp shells. 

Top off with freshwater as the saltwater starts to evaporate.

_I read this and thought it deserved a try. 13 days on the same water so I decided to repost it here while answering the question.




Regloh said:


> This forum is starting to become a real problem for me  Every time I see some other interesting aspect of the hobby I develop this urge to try it. One of these days it will get me thrown out by my wife...


_Tell me about it until last year I kept one 55g tank and now its eight tanks in the house LMAO._



daverockssocks said:


> Awesome journal. I have a breeding pair of angels but i never even get wigglers, the eggs disappear....
> There's a khuli loach in the tank so I think he may be having midnight snacks.


_If the tank doesn't have a night light the parents can't guard the eggs._


----------



## wkndracer

*Shrimp farm*

2 liter brine shrimp rig.


----------



## Regloh

Thank you for posting the info on the hatcheries and the pictures. I like your condensation recovering lid 
I guess I have to do some more research on the whole thing, but it is good to see how other people do it. 
What I am most concerned with is that it may produce way too much food for one 55g community tank and I'll be throwing half of the brine shrimp out. Maybe I can freeze what I don't use and then not run the hatchery full time. 
Enough about me... this is your journal.. thanks again...


----------



## wkndracer

No problem at all as I look at the forums as information sharing:smile:
(hope to help others as they have me)
Using Diana's method of feeding the brine shrimp you can culture right to adult size and absolutely rinse and freeze. Huge benefit too that you KNOW they haven't thawed, grown nasty stuff that could make your fish sick and then have been refrozen before you got them. Also the eggs can sit sealed in a freezer for a year and still hatch too.


----------



## Trallen44

I feel the love! :icon_roll LOL I know, you have been busy with all the new mouths to feed. :hihi:


----------



## wkndracer

*The beatings will continue until the lessons are learned.*

My family gathered to celebrate my Mom and Dads 50th wedding anniversary last night in Spring Hill FL. The timer shut the lights off at 11pm with us not returning until 11:44pm. We lost all but 17 in the 55/10. Day 9 free swimmers and good eaters too. 

Still have a boat load of gold / smoky veils in the 10g. :biggrin:

Learned how INTOLERANT crypts can be too.
The baby brine's are thoroughly rinsed before being added to the tank to feed the fry and still all the crypts under the dump point have melted in 9 days.

BEFORE









TODAY


----------



## mountaindew

Nice cloud of babes there.
Watching a cloud of baby fish swim around has always been one of the coolest things about having an aquarium.

Now what killed your crypts? I am not understanding what happened. The brine water?

Anyway good luck with your breeding and before you know it you will have a dozen tanks going! Thats how it all starts he he 
md


----------



## wkndracer

mountaindew said:


> Now what killed your crypts? I am not understanding what happened. The brine water?
> 
> Anyway good luck with your breeding and before you know it you will have a dozen tanks going! Thats how it all starts he he
> md


Brine shrimp feeding. Yeah, that's the guess on the crypts as nothing else has changed and water tests as normal on all levels. Using a fine mess shrimp net I'm rinsing really well with fresh water but the crypts have all turned to mush in the tanks that I'm feeding brine in. At the oposite end of the same tanks I still have normal looking plants but directly under where I dip the net to release the baby brine's all the crypts are mushing up and melting.

We've gone from one tank to eight in two years LOL.


----------



## sunfire99

Looks like those horny Angels finally raised a new batch of babes for you to sell, or trade, or ship to your friends.  Looking good Mike!!


----------



## wkndracer

The 10g fry tank first.

Development at 30 days from the spawn or 28 days since the hatch however it should be counted.
[FONT=&quot]Coloration is starting to show between the babies as to which parents genes are dominant. Dorsal, anal and ventral fins are developing beyond the pork barrel shape of these brine fed piglets.



























[/FONT] With lesser and regular duckweed, java moss and lots of green slimy algae present nothing I test for in the way water parameters is showing as a hazard in the 10g tank even with 3x daily feedings of BBS and this huge number of babies. 





































I have a 20L set up now lightly planted for the transfer when needed.:biggrin:
Life in the low tech 55g is doing fine as well with the fry here 7 days behind in they're development.









The parent raised success ratio is way below the bare tank as to be expected. (can't house a million baby angels anyway )


----------



## wkndracer

Day 29
Feeding brines


----------



## Ariel301

You have beautiful pairs of angels! Thanks for sharing them with us. Reading your thread is making me miss the days when I had a whole fishroom of angels...had to downsize to just one 55 when I got married a few months ago, and due to the bad job market we lost our apartment and had to move in with my in-laws, with our two cats, six goats, a horse (which we unfortunately lost to illness) and the aquarium...I don't think they'll be letting me set up more. Maybe some plastic tubs in my closet for growing fry....hmm...=) 

I've got one huge dark gold marble standard fin female angel (almost solid black with a bright orange face) that I've raised from pea size, she's almost two years old now. I've been trying hard to find her a mate, but with Petco being the only fish supplier in town, I'm saving up to find some good ones to have shipped to me. I wouldn't mind one of those fish-bombs showing up in the mail lol...

Good luck with those angels, and congratulations on their fertility. I never had a pair spawn more than once a month.


----------



## wkndracer

Ariel301 thanx for the post and,, be careful what you wish for LOL. 
Sorry for the current circumstance you find yourself in and hope it improves soon. 
It is wonderful to have family to count on though. roud:

New spawn started 1600-1630 and again a full slate. This is the second spawn since the remaining 15 were hatched. The 15 remaining are eating them like the little cannibals nature makes them to be.:icon_sad: 
Momma looks a little perplexed but doesn’t quite know what to do. I do though. As long as the cannibal routine is going on I’m not feeding brine shrimp. When they ate the wigglers the last time I just let it slip by as work had me on overtime and it wasn't that pleasant a post. 









The babies in the 10g from the gold and smokey veil cross have now been moved to the planted 20g long tank and are doing fine. When I set the tank up I didn't waste any crypts when planting it. :icon_wink


----------



## Centromochlus

Ugh. I wish my angels would at least raise one spawn. I'm curious to see what the offspring would look like. Male is platinum, female is zebra. :O But they fail at parenting. Maybe i should get some slate, so the female could lay her eggs on that instead of the skimmer tube. Also, are your angels the only inhabitants in that tank? I have corys, ottos, and a florida flagfish - i'm wondering if they're maybe eating some of the eggs?

Anyway, your tanks are awesome and i envy your beautiful angelfish!


----------



## wkndracer

Hi AzFishKid,
The 55g now holds the breeding pair, two upside down catfish _Synodontis nigriventris_, and 6 otto's. They spawn every 7 - 12 days whether I do anything or not LOL. When a spawn is in the tank I make sure the room is never completely dark. If we mess up and forget the nightlight all the eggs or babies are gone in the morning. Even now with just whats listed above in the tank it still happens. 

My 75g living room tanks have multiple pairs and they only make it to wiggler stage before being lost. (eaten I'm sure) Slate is not required as the first dozen or so spawns were on the mag float glass cleaner or amazon sword leaves. Others on TAFII say parent raising pairs are rare but but I truly don't know if that is true or not. I've had three good pairings do it but my mistakes cost them they're spawns. Balancing water parameters for the fish and plants and having everything go right I'm still struggling with at times.


----------



## Ariel301

Wow, I love that zebra female. What beautiful fins! Those should grow up to be some very nice babies. 

AZ, I had your problem with some of my pairs. I have found that a lot of the fancier varieties with more inbreeding make horrible parents. Koi seem to be notorious; I never got koi to parent raise, and mine had very low fertility on top of that--I only got a 50% hatch rate at best. I don't know about plats, I bought three from a guy in Denver, picked them up from him at a Wendy's parking lot without even getting a chance to see them, and none of the three lived long. They were deformed, one was missing an eye...not pretty. But I know there's likely a bit of inbreeding going on in them. I also had a gold male that I never could get to pair up. I put several females in with him, left him alone a few hours, and came back to a tank full of dead females with him ripping them to bits. We called him Hannibal the Cannibal, and he had to be housed alone for the rest of his life...That's definitely not natural behavior.
You may try pulling a spawn and hand raising it. And I wouldn't doubt your other fish are after the eggs; if you are really serious about breeding your pair they probably need their own tank. You could set them up in a 20 (or probably even a 10) and just put them in there for a few weeks to spawn, then return them to your display tank. When I was breeding them, I would give pairs a 'vacation' in one of the display tanks, rotating through them and then putting them back in their breeding tanks to spawn.


----------



## Centromochlus

wkndracer said:


> Hi AzFishKid,
> The 55g now holds the breeding pair, two upside down catfish _Synodontis nigriventris_, and 6 otto's. They spawn every 7 - 12 days whether I do anything or not LOL. When a spawn is in the tank I make sure the room is never completely dark. If we mess up and forget the nightlight all the eggs or babies are gone in the morning. Even now with just whats listed above in the tank it still happens.
> 
> My 75g living room tanks have multiple pairs and they only make it to wiggler stage before being lost. (eaten I'm sure) Slate is not required as the first dozen or so spawns were on the mag float glass cleaner or amazon sword leaves. Others on TAFII say parent raising pairs are rare but but I truly don't know if that is true or not. I've had three good pairings do it but my mistakes cost them they're spawns. Balancing water parameters for the fish and plants and having everything go right I'm still struggling with at times.


Thanks for the info. roud:
Would an LED light be fine at night? The tank is in my bedroom and keeping a few of the T5 lights on all night would make it impossible for me to sleep. 



> Wow, I love that zebra female. What beautiful fins! Those should grow up to be some very nice babies.
> 
> AZ, I had your problem with some of my pairs. I have found that a lot of the fancier varieties with more inbreeding make horrible parents. Koi seem to be notorious; I never got koi to parent raise, and mine had very low fertility on top of that--I only got a 50% hatch rate at best. I don't know about plats, I bought three from a guy in Denver, picked them up from him at a Wendy's parking lot without even getting a chance to see them, and none of the three lived long. They were deformed, one was missing an eye...not pretty. But I know there's likely a bit of inbreeding going on in them. I also had a gold male that I never could get to pair up. I put several females in with him, left him alone a few hours, and came back to a tank full of dead females with him ripping them to bits. We called him Hannibal the Cannibal, and he had to be housed alone for the rest of his life...That's definitely not natural behavior.
> You may try pulling a spawn and hand raising it. And I wouldn't doubt your other fish are after the eggs; if you are really serious about breeding your pair they probably need their own tank. You could set them up in a 20 (or probably even a 10) and just put them in there for a few weeks to spawn, then return them to your display tank. When I was breeding them, I would give pairs a 'vacation' in one of the display tanks, rotating through them and then putting them back in their breeding tanks to spawn.


Very good point there. 
I'm not serious about breeding them, i'd just like for a few to actually live. I think a platinum/zebra angelfish would look really cool, haha. 

Did moving the angelfish constantly to different tanks stress them out? I would think that if you moved them in to a smaller aquarium, then wouldn't spawn at all.


Thanks for the help both of you, i appreciate it. Sorry about jacking your thread wkndracer! :frown:


----------



## Ariel301

It didn't stress my fish out much, but I think they just got used to it. I wasn't moving them once a week or anything like that, they'd be in a tank for a month at least. It might not work for every fish though; mine were used to a lot of stuff; company coming over with kids poking at the tanks, cats chasing them around...they were not too skittish after that lol.


----------



## wkndracer

Forums are all about information exchange right? Thanx for the posts guys:smile:

Az, regarding the nightlight, just enough is needed so the parents can see the spawn allowing them to protect them. My tanks with the lunar kits do OK and the 20gL has a bathroom nightlight LED that's dim enough to light just one end to good effect. The 55g low tech is in the home office so we just leave one of the desk lights on at night all these work. Just need to not black out the tank.


----------



## wkndracer

*Kicking the kids out today.*

Sorry to those that were following this thread/saga. Working overtime and living a good life has been very busy lately. Started feeding quality flake along with the BBS about three weeks ago and looking good for success with only one more FYI being added to my list of "opps didn't figure that would happen" .

The parents have got it down pat now and do a jam up job roud:
The babies on the other hand can sure be idiots 
While the parents treat the kids with tender care every time Mom's biological clock goes off (spawning) The kids act like cannibals. At first it was when the new spawn reached free swimmer stage, then wiggler, and finally the eggs themselves were eaten. The egg eating is bad stuff as it appears to bind up their digestive systems and a handful croaked after both 'eggfests'. Pot bellied corpse's on the bottom of the tank 

Mom was starting to get tired of it too and Wednesday started pushing back so it's time the kids leave at 2 months old.
Moved to the 55g Walstad style tank.









Just like zebras everyone has a different pattern.









Nickle and dime size now and on their own.









Three hours after the 'youngins' were moved Mom and Pop are right back on station to be "Mom and Pop" again :biggrin:


----------



## Regloh

Awesome, thanks for the update... I know what busy feels like!
Those are very cute and now pretty much out of the woods I suppose... 
Time to start worrying about selling?


----------



## sunfire99

Congrats on the grow outs Mike. Looking good!!


----------



## Ariel301

Yeah, young angelfish do have a bad habit of overeating on anything tasty, and younger siblings are definitely tasty to them. I found that I really had to go easy on the cichlid pellets I used to feed mine while I was growing them out, because they would swallow large amounts of the dry pellets whole and then get very sick. 

Your babies are looking great. That one in the bottom right corner looks like a young altum almost.


----------



## wkndracer

*Auto Pilot*

Haven't posted an update lately but the tank is still here and my scaled rabbits are still at it.
Latest batch was spawned on the slate 3/10/10. The two prior groups went unreported on the forum. There are however 39 growing out in the 55 soil sub tank after giving away a dozen locally. 
This batch was transferred to the sword immediately after hatching on 3/13/10.



















Full tank shot tonight.


----------



## rhstranger

Love the tank. The layout, the foliage, the angels. Very nice.


----------



## wkndracer

*Change up*

Swapped pairs. :tongue: Time will tell what kind of parents these gold veils will be. Should make for a nice looking group if all they throw is golds. First spawn since the move from the living room display tank on 3/31/10. Sure didn't take them long.
























The pair are still at it currently looks like its gonna be a huge group of eggs. :help: More tanks :help:,,, now that's starting to be a problem.:hihi: (wonder if Tim has room?)


----------



## Trallen44

I am still trying to figure out what you are putting in your water!! LOL I am still waiting to see some of the blacks spawn. Once I get some much needed work done on my tanks and get everything situated, I will know if there is any room. LOL Hope things are going as great for you as your tanks look!!


----------



## Kailaan

Oi that was indeed a soap opera of a read. Good to see that they finally got the hang of it. Now to teach your next pair. Great reading though and congrats, they are gorgeous pairs.


----------



## wkndracer

Hello Kailaan,
Yes it was fun (and still is) Thanks for your first post being in my low tech thread! Welcome to TPT. 
The golds lost that first spawn but due anyday to spawn again.


----------



## Trallen44

Talk about being slow on updates!!! LOL Hope things are going great for you, and all your great tanks and fish. Can't wait to see how things are looking nowadays.


----------



## wkndracer

*I miss my friend*



Trallen44 said:


> Talk about being slow on updates!!! LOL Hope things are going great for you, and all your great tanks and fish. Can't wait to see how things are looking nowadays.


Here it is buddy (are there forums in heaven? I hope so)
I've been on vacation this week and that's allowed things to get caught up. I've been enjoying TPT with time to spare.:tongue:

This tank string grew another water filled box July 25 of this year when I added a 20g tall between the 55g and 10g. So it's now a daisy chain:icon_mrgr









I've swapped between pairs of gold veils, smoky's and of course the DD blacks from Garrett. Yet to have a parent raising pair to compare with the stripes. 
Current tank pics taken today.


----------



## wkndracer

*New quarantine*

My sweety had a Christmas surprise for me. (NEW FISH)

Still a low tech Angel tank thread but now quarantined grow out tanks instead of honeymoon suites.

12 pB/pB F2 peas that are eating hatched brine's like little demons twice a day in the 20g tall.
3 Platinum's that have what look to be good ventral and overall conformation along with a handful of LFS quality plats that may or may not be great as they develop.
and,,,
6 Kennedy pB/Red Koi crossed fish that the breeder say's display pink throughout they're bodies as they mature are now in my office 55g!
21 nice/near perfect fish in quarantine and six test pilots to use coming out the other side

















Platinum Blue (Philippine Blue) from Ken Kennedy's line X German Blue. These are the F2s :icon_mrgr 
Big peas to pre dime size 12 total



























6 Platinum Blue (Philippine Blue) from Ken Kennedy's line X Red Koi creating an overall pink iridescent fish and a group of [FONT=&quot]Platinum's [/FONT]now fill the 55g all at nickle to quarter size. 













































OMG I'm so happy with these guy's!!!! 
With all these new fish I don't want to enter 2011 being over crowded so MERRY CHRISTMAS to self,,, 
new tank rack.









YIPPIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
A question to the membership,,,
Now that I have 6 aquariums in my office does that constitute/qualify as a fish room? :hihi:


----------



## SleepyOwl

Fish room status... check 

Love your tanks! It makes me want to get a pair of angels and learn to breed. 

I am also impressed with how nice all your plants look being low tech! roud:


----------



## Hilde

wkndracer said:


>


This is the first time I noticed this thread. Thought this picture funny. Looks like mama is giving you the evil eye.:icon_lol:


----------



## wkndracer

SleepyOwl said:


> Fish room status... check
> Love your tanks! It makes me want to get a pair of angels and learn to breed.
> I am also impressed with how nice all your plants look being low tech! roud:


Angels are easy just give a good home and they do the rest.
Thanx for the comment but the plants are easy too just grow in slower low tech.



Hilde said:


> Looks like mama is giving you the evil eye.:icon_lol:


Actually that's the Dad but yes he did a great job and got very 'testy' whenever anyone got close to his babies. He would even bite me if I tried to trim plants even at the opposite end of the tank.


----------



## wkndracer

*New kids*

Sitting here being lazy and looking at three roughly ¾ - 1” long LFABN and one ¼” baby panda in my planted 10g ‘orphaned’ baby tank. Breeding happens in my displays but the mortality rate is extremely high. When I see the surviving little suckers in the display’s I net what I can and raise them in a refuge on the desk right next to the computer. (last tank in my three tank daisy chain on the old blueprint table part of my desk) Hard to get a size reference in the photo but they are tiny. The panda has been IMPOSSIBLE so far to get a pic of. UGH! The camera has a range finder auto focus and that red light sends the midget into the java fern. 

PLEASE bear in mind these are midget fish LOL no apology for the quality of the pics this time.









































AND THE MIGHTY MIDGET! about 1/4" (he's next to the giant crypt that's about 3" tall :icon_roll




















Cafeful if you click on the last two pics because they blow up! LOL:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:


----------



## SleepyOwl

Awww, so cute.


----------



## wkndracer

*Title changed today.*

Smart or dumb changed the thread name today. Too many tanks to journal separately and the theme is always the same, water weeds and angel fish. (and LFABN now too so opps on that)
Currently the home office contains my computer and 6 aquariums so adding the black rack to this thread permanently makes sense to me anyway. Most all the pleco and baby angel pics that have been posted were shots of these tanks. Love being in the office with a tank I can touch right next to the keyboard.

Pics taken today doing maintenance,,, ugly first.
Weed wacking.







I can destroy a tank.









Started with the 20g tall.
Mowed it down then added a cap of back yard sand to try it for giggles 
(added 38.6 oz. (2-12oz. cups)). 
The original sub was/is a mix of Flourite original and pool filter sand (way too white).

















Then moved over to devastate the 55g. Yanked and pulled until there was room for the fish to swim.









On a kinder note I won't share the full tank shot of the crew cut I gave the 10g on the end of the daisy chain. :icon_roll Just posting the brown babies I'm now collecting into this tank since the pleco pan is stocked. Very few are brown but what I find each spawn go here for now.

NOTE the wire used for the Plecoware is 1/8" for size reference.


























Best guess is I have 9 brown out of 300 albinos.


----------



## wkndracer

*imo the really good stuff*

The 55g on the black rack (my only store purchased stand).
Setup to be a breeding tank for angels. Christmas brought the rack and new stock for my collection of trouble. 

15 peas grew to quarter size and were moved into the stainless stand top tank until the cycle failed and I moved them in on the pair here. Everybody is kindly getting along.
Pics today without butchered plants LOL hence the good stuff.

















I can sit and stare at this girl for hours (or until my wife catches me)









Cool shot to me as the quarter in the background looks like a double of my girl. (No mirror backing on this tank.)









Another development I'm excited about is I have wifi pinoy in the group (wifi = wide finned) 
Forth in line, in back on the right.









Two for sure and one maybe wifi out of the 15.
These fish were complete butts tonight! I took over 100 pics and this is as good as I could get (damn things hide)

























Angels aren't just stripes, marbles, golds and koi anymore :icon_mrgr


----------



## sewingalot

I just spent the better part of this morning reading this whole journal. I must say that I am in awe of your abilities. The angels are gorgeous, the breeding is fantastic and the filtration setup you have amazes me. How in the world are you so versatile? It's rarely a day gone by that I am not in awe of your talent. Are you sure you aren't working for NASA? :hihi:

I did get sad reading through your journal, though. You made me realize I really miss Tim. He lost his life to the same cancer my dad had and we spoke about it a few times a while ago. In his entire fight, he never quit making us smile, huh? I wish he was still around...

By the way, I'm subscribing to this so I don't loose track now. Any other insanely awesome journals you have out there on this forum? Also, after seeing the sheer amount of angels you have, I'm starting to think they breed faster than guppies.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Gorgeous angels!

And your tank has turned into the regular little BNP factory, hasn't it? LOL


----------



## wkndracer

*Made me smile , made me frown*



sewingalot said:


> I just spent the better part of this morning reading this whole journal. The angels are gorgeous, the breeding is fantastic.
> 
> I did get sad reading through your journal, though. You made me realize I really miss Tim. I wish he was still around...
> 
> By the way, I'm subscribing. Any other insanely awesome journals you have out there on this forum? Also, after seeing the sheer amount of angels you have, I'm starting to think they breed faster than guppies.


Made me smile :smile:, made me frown :icon_sad:

smile :smile:
Love it when folks enjoy my Angel adventures. These fish have always been my favorite. 
Others disagree but until you provide soft water breeding isn't a huge concern but they do adapt well to hard water.

made me frown :icon_sad:
After reading your post I found myself reviewing old posts and PM's. I let life get too busy and owed Tim an update and didn't get it posted in time. When we lost him I left his post the last on the string for a long time. I'll always miss







(the low tech prince)

As to other 'insanely awesome journals' all I can say is nobody has asked me to remove any of them LMAO. The 110g was a pretty good build.
(and I'm humbled by such a comment TY)



lauraleellbp said:


> Gorgeous angels!


Thank you it's a good group I think.

Pics of the desk set in the aftermath of my destructive trim.
55g fts









There is a pile of petrified wood under these weeds. (I think)









Four Khuli loaches in this tank I rarely see but believe them to be in here.









20T Dawned on me this morning I have an empty tank with only a single algae eater in here. 
That won't last long LOL









10g brown pleco tank.









That's the three on the desk.


----------



## wkndracer

*Catching up on life*

6 more tanks touched and while not perfect to my messy standards I'm happy. LOL only three more to go. Got the pleco pan through a WC and then ran the office tonight. (miss my wife :icon_cry

Turned the boy loose with the camera and he's now HobbyNutzHatchery's official shutter bug.
The full tank shots are mine and the rest are Dustin's untouched.

























Desk 55g









Crazy Fish! I have two young pairs that spawned in this formless and formally filthy tank. 3hrs. since the trim and WC they are still tending.









This guy will have an egg dinner later tonight I'm sure.

















smile for the Buddha turtle :biggrin:









Veggie muncher tanks

































I think the kid is pretty goodroud:


----------



## allegoriest

This is like, the most adorable thread ever. ;__;

You make me want to have baby angels again. So very badly. 

My weakness is the itty bitty fry that are just starting to look angelic. And you hit it. Hard. D:


And man, your fish room is AWESOME. It's so clean and everything fits in place so well~


----------



## nonconductive

mike those angels are sweet!


----------



## Zerocon

I just read pretty much the whole thing, I want my Koi Angels back 

beautiful thread!


----------



## sewingalot

Your boy takes great pictures, Mike. Every time I look at this journal I want Angels. I gotta stop looking in here. Really like the last full tank shot!


----------



## nonconductive

mike if those blues spawn for you, i want some!


----------



## wkndracer

allegoriest said:


> This is like, the most adorable thread ever. ;__;
> My weakness is the itty bitty fry that are just starting to look angelic. And you hit it. Hard. D:
> And man, your fish room is AWESOME. It's so clean and everything fits in place so well~


:smile:Baby angels are too sweet and get all the credit for my extra tanks LOL.

Thanxs for the kudos on the tanks :biggrin:



Zerocon said:


> I just read pretty much the whole thing, I want my Koi Angels back
> 
> beautiful thread!


Gotta luv it when your thread keeps others away from the TV LOL
TY



sewingalot said:


> Your boy takes great pictures, Mike. Every time I look at this journal I want Angels. I gotta stop looking in here. Really like the last full tank shot!


They are your angels through reading the thread remember?
The boy is TOO cool imo and nowhere to go but up and beyond. Good grades and all kinds of congrats from those who meet him, my wife and I love smiling.



nonconductive said:


> mike if those blues spawn for you, i want some!


Noted D and I'm trying to get them in a happy place.

Off to tackle the 110g tonight.:smile:


----------



## seadreamer

Beautiful tanks and fish. This is the first time I've seen wide-finned angels and had no idea they existed. I like them.


----------



## dbLbogie

Couldn't sleep and just read through the entire thread from post #1. What a bunch of ups and downs over the past two years since this thread was created...

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## wkndracer

dbLbogie said:


> Couldn't sleep and just read through the entire thread from post #1. What a bunch of ups and downs over the past two years since this thread was created...
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


haha too cool! thanx. (sorry you couldn't sleep)
lots of changes in two years true enough
The parent 55g starting it all having been wet almost forever and moved to and from three times without being broken down ought to be some kind of record LOL.

edit; your sig pic looks like a turbine bucket.


----------



## sewingalot

wkndracer said:


> They are your angels through reading the thread remember?
> The boy is TOO cool imo and nowhere to go but up and beyond. Good grades and all kinds of congrats from those who meet him, my wife and I love smiling.


How could I forget? :icon_mrgr I declared your angels long ago, lol. I live through your tank. I so want angels every time I look at your tanks.

I must say, I'm impressed with your boy, seems like he's going to be a chip off the ole' block (your wife).


----------



## pianofish

Looked through this whole thread, and man you have some gorgeous angels. I'm quite jealous of your philipine blues, those are beautiful man! You make me want to get angels again so bad... 
Your pal,
Pianofish


----------



## wkndracer

*Wahoo!!!!!!!!!!!*

*I am COMPLETELY STOKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*










*11 pre dimes from Angel heaven fell upon my humble home today.*
My favorite breeder has sent me some new Koi Angels
She has been breeding a group into a new line working towards a higher color coverage. Funny how excited I get over fish these days LOL.
24hrs with FedEx in the dark and then a camera flashing in they're tiny little eyes even with all that and color shows even now
:bounce: doin th' dance


----------



## night9eyes

AH HA! Now your birthday post to our favorite breeder makes sense! I couldn't make heads or tales of it on TAF. Now I get it! :icon_mrgr Little lovelies you got there!! :bounce: Congrats!


----------



## nonconductive

mikes's giddy like a school girl. they look nice!


----------



## Guest

I am so envious... Please share!


----------



## wkndracer

Didn't mean to confuse when I posted L just excited :icon_redf

hahaha yup! yup! yup! your right D I am, schools girls were never this pretty that I remember LOL

sandie, I did tell you where the best little Angels come from didn't I?

Small as they are for the next couple of weeks they went in with my baby browns so I can see them when online,,, like maybe 20" from the keyboard right now. Been awhile (January) since I had little angels here. Cranked up the BBS factory so they can have hi pro for a time to boost growth.


----------



## sewingalot

nonconductive said:


> mikes's giddy like a school girl. they look nice!


You know, I was never that giddy. :icon_mrgr Those are some beautiful angels. Thank you for adding new fish for me to long after. roud:


----------



## wkndracer

*Baby makers and babies*

The young pb/pb and pb/koi are trying sooo hard to be parents.
Three days on 8hr shifts allows me to clean tanks, trim and change water. (yippie) This has all the fish wanting to spawn.

pb/koi on the slate

























pb/pb using a java leaf

















My new little koi nuggets are doing great in with the baby browns.
Feeding BBS and crushed flake.

























better pics coming :smile:


----------



## kris66

Simply gorgeous!


----------



## sewingalot

wkndracer said:


> The young pb/pb and pb/koi are trying sooo hard to be parents.
> Three days on 8hr shifts allows me to clean tanks, trim and change water. (yippie) This has all the fish wanting to spawn.
> 
> pb/koi on the slate


I just had to say these are great parents. They are reading a farmer's story to the children before they are even born. :tongue: Beautiful tank as usual, Mike


----------



## phorty

Great thread! Of all your angels, I think I'm partial to the zebras.


----------



## wkndracer

phorty said:


> Great thread! Of all your angels, I think I'm partial to the zebras.


:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgrThank you!:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr

The zebras are home grown 3rd generation. The only fish I have with red eyes.


----------



## phorty

wkndracer said:


> :icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgrThank you!:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr:icon_mrgr
> 
> The zebras are home grown 3rd generation. The only fish I have with red eyes.


They're outstanding! I just ordered some pea-sized blue zerbras off of Aquabid. If you ever have any of your's to share, please let me know. I'd love to grow out some!


----------



## wkndracer

*koi & plecs 10g*

Tried to catch the koi while feeding BBS tonight.

























Gotta admit I luv having this as a baby tank next to my computer.
From the keyboard shots all


----------



## Karackle

I just spent the past couple hours reading this entire journal, what an epic story that started 2 years ago! I LOVE it!!! You have got some SERIOUSLY gorgeous fish here! The blueish-irridescent surreal / out-of-a-fairyland-looking ones are probably my favorite, but I also think your red-eyed zebras (the original parents) are simply stunning as well. Oh, and I also really like the wide-finned angels, very unique and very cool. I never really wanted angels until I read through this thread! If only I had the space for some! (actually.....how do you think a pair would get along with 10 black neons, 1 emperor tetra, 2 BNPs and a couple amanos in a 60g tank?) 

Anyway, thank you for journaling this adventure! 

And I'm so glad Sara commented on the parents reading to their children because I was going to say something very similar :icon_lol:

*edit* may I ask where you get/got your brine shrimp eggs and net from? I had a surprise spawn of zebra danios in my 5g tank after i moved out the parents and I'd like to try hatching some BBS for them, I liked what I read from the Walstad quote you posted a while back about simply leaving the water in and just adding back the water and fresh eggs. Do you still find this method works well for you? And are the packets that come with the Drs F&S hatchery kit just pre-measured packets of salt or do they contain eggs too (just so I would know whether to order eggs along with the starter kit) thanks! roud:


----------



## wkndracer

G'morning Kara, wow lets see about not missing anything here. 

Think I will start off with the having a pair in a 60g Q. Having Angels is all I know really because rarely have I not had them. A pair would center piece nicely to four adults max would be what I consider angel stocking on a tank volume that size. _But_,,, while angelfish aren't smart like a dolphin named _Flipper_.







They are a high enough form of life to express attitude and even be down right mean sometimes. Mostly it's a territory / school dominance behavior but male and female alike can have strong individuals be quite nasty with one another (not always about size either). People talk about an angel 'owning' the tank. My favorite breeder describes her method of 'manners training' of pushy/nasty acting individuals as education. Placing the young ill mannered in a larger tank with mature adults they are 'taught' to be nice LOL. 
Sadly even with a heavily planted tank your Amano shrimp would never be safe. :icon_frow Even with the kindest individual angel you could find shrimp are food. 
Veils are much slower swimmers than standard finned but angels will consider eating anything they _think_ will fit in they're mouth. Neon schools would loose individuals over time too and only be safe as long as they watched where they travel LOL. I think they are a food source actually in the wild.

Brine shrimp:
The net I use came from F&S.
Brine Shrimp Net, 3" x 2-1/2" 10" handle, CD-35687 $1.19 
Same for the hatch kits I settled on.
Brine Shrimp Hatchery Kit, CD-154005 $9.99 

The hatch mix packets contain salt and eggs for a single bottle mix and it's costly to use a new one everyday (imo). You can start with one then add just eggs after harvesting the BBS and removing the shells but I purchased no replacement packets and just use salt for new mixes. Room temperature and without a hatching light works just fine for me. I rotate mixes on two hatch bottles for a continuous supply when needed.

I've used the in tank Hatch'n'Feed product but it did not produce enough BBS. The larger fry took station keeping position in front of the discharge gate and the smaller babies didn't get to eat.

AngelsPlus is where I purchased my shrimp eggs. Purchased a 15oz. coffee can full ages ago putting it in the freezer. (still using them)
The hatch water as long as it has no odor I'll re use it repeatedly until it fowls. Draining the live BBS into the net then returning the water to the hatch bottle. I use the same net to scoop the empty eggs out of the bottle as I do for catching the BBS. I stopped feeding the BBS as Walstad described and I posted on page #10 because I'll use all those hatched in a bottle within 24hrs. and just reload.


----------



## The Dude

YOU started all the madness for me!! I now have a pair of Pinoy blacks in the 46g and 5 Pinoy widefins or veils with blue iridescent heads and highlights in the 75g. Two of which just laid eggs last night!! Unfortunately they were eaten by morning. Now I'm thinking of another tank or repurposing the 29g. My wife is sick of your influence!! Your fish and tanks are so beautiful! She does love watching them and wants me to breed them to sell, but made it clear I can't keep anymore.


----------



## Karackle

Good morning! Or I guess I should say afternoon  Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of my questions so thoroughly! I'll have to think more about the angels, but thank you so much for the info! I would have to move the amanos to my 30g because those guys have been around for about 3 years now! I had no idea they could live that long! I'm rather partial to them :hihi: As for the neons, I'm not sure how much you know about black neons, but they are actually a totally different genus than the regular neons and get quite a bit bigger, so I'm not super worried about them (maybe the smaller ones i would worry about). At the moment, we're both too busy and not home enough probably to keep a close enough eye on the tank, so angels might have to wait for another day, but they're certainly on my mind now! roud: 

As for the brine shrimp, that's good to know. I probably would have done away with the packets myself, I agree, it seems much more expensive. I used to work in a zebrafish lab and we 2 cones going all the time, but we would refill the cone with fresh brine water every time, it's good to know when doing it at home that I wouldn't need to do that. That's actually one of the things that's always kept me away from doing it at home. I should have done more research sooner :hihi: I MIGHT try to see what I can find for a spout at home depot and DIY something for myself (god knows I purchased more than a couple parts to fix our artemia cones at the fish facility over the years i was there ) Whether or not I do that, I'll probably be back here asking you how much salt the water needs  

Thanks again for the info and for keeping such a detailed journal! 

Oh and I LOVE the flipper pic! :hihi: Dolphins are my favorite. If I could fit one in a fish tank you can bet I would!!! :biggrin:


----------



## wkndracer

The Dude said:


> YOU started all the madness for me!!











somebody always gets the blame :hihi:




Karackle said:


> I'll probably be back here asking you how much salt the water needs
> 
> Thanks again for the info and for keeping such a detailed journal!


info if I kno anytimeroud:

Salt if you have a gram scale here is added @ 16grams per liter. I use the same rock salt I have in the water conditioner. 
(4 bucks for 40 pounds :wink Being a larger grain that's more than a tablespoon will hold. Regular aquarium salt I used a slightly heaping TBS.


----------



## wkndracer

*Office update*

The baby koi are BBS munching little fools and soon to move sadly to another tank. Good news is pics should be easier.









The teen pairs are reduced to a set of short fin koi and a set of plats.
The koi are practicing again.

















FTS


----------



## night9eyes

Great looking Koi M! It's great watching the updates


----------



## Karackle

Gorgeous fish and great pics as usual! And thanks for the brine recipe, sorry I didn't thank you sooner, I must have forgotten to hit "post" because I thought I HAD replied! 

I love your daisy-chained tank network! Very cool.


----------



## wkndracer

*Things change*

Well it's time to change the batting order seeing as summer is here.
New pair as critters were moved.









The DDSV's were pulled from the 110g are in the efficiency apartment LOL









My baby tank remains the same at the moment only being well cleaned without change to the critter list.
The baby Koi and browns are still closest to my keyboard but soon to move as they grow.

















FTS or should I say the whole train? LOL









Fish tanks are better than blue prints on the desk any day :biggrin:


----------



## nonconductive

whole train CHHOOO CHOOO


----------



## Karackle

hahahaha definitely the whole train! :hihi: 

Looking good! Can't wait to see some babies! :biggrin:


----------



## ReluctantHippy

I just read pages 1-10 and am completely enthralled but my dinner is getting cold (or already has) and I must take a break. Amazing job and love the thorough commentary. Can't wait to finish the thread later and find out how all the new spawn did.


----------



## sewingalot

Mike, you are taking such great care of my angels. I appreciate all the hard work you put into them, especially since you are only a foster parent and all.  What do you normally do on vacations, do you worry about them needing fed? Or do you just leave them to it? I'm especially curious about the fry.


----------



## wkndracer

ReluctantHippy said:


> I just read pages 1-10 and am completely enthralled but my dinner is getting cold (or already has) and I must take a break. Amazing job and love the thorough commentary. Can't wait to finish the thread later and find out how all the new spawn did.


Thanks for the comments :smile: One of the neat things about tanking is how things always are changing. Hope you come back and laugh some more :hihi:


sewingalot said:


> Mike, you are taking such great care of my angels. I appreciate all the hard work you put into them, especially since you are only a foster parent and all.  What do you normally do on vacations, do you worry about them needing fed? Or do you just leave them to it? I'm especially curious about the fry.


Yeah, it take practice to be a good babysitter and stay detached. LOL

We have hired a house sitter in the past. Dogs and tanks covered that way. We currently have a neighbor that feeds everybody in the evening and checks the tanks.
Baby LFABN are OK but young angels (pre-dime) are left to the tanks :redface: a couple may surprize us but most do not.


----------



## limeslide

This journal is full of LOLs! I really enjoyed reading it. xD The tanks look really nice!  Congrats on all the spawns and I wish you the best in what is to come!
Are any of the 3rd gen red eyed zebras going to be up for adoption?


...psst... is that *BB* in the pair tank? :O


----------



## Karackle

my apologies if I've already asked you this, but what kind of crypt is that in the front right corner of the largest tank? The dark red one. It's a great color!!!


----------



## wkndracer

limeslide said:


> This journal is full of LOLs! I really enjoyed reading it.
> ...psst... is that *BB* in the pair tank? :O


haha BB was rehomed (nasty $%&** LOL) that was one mean fish!

The red eyed zerbras will return to the breeding tanks in time but playing with the blues and blacks right now. 



Karackle said:


> my apologies if I've already asked you this, but what kind of crypt is that in the front right corner of the largest tank? The dark red one. It's a great color!!!


WOW! That question took me back to the beginning :icon_cool
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/84976-wts-crypts-bacopa.html
Bronze


----------



## nonconductive

Bb?


----------



## Karackle

hahaha wow! I thought it looked like wendtii, but it has so much more color than any wendtii bronze that I've seen (though I suppose that could just be my lights)! I love it! 

And I was wondering about BB too....


----------



## wkndracer

nonconductive said:


> Bb?


Largest fish from our first spawn. 
OMG what a mean fish!, egg eater, eye biter, fin nipping mean. She went to live with an Oscar. 
(I think she beat the crap out of the Oscar too LOL)


----------



## nonconductive

haha mike, that sounds like one mean angel!


----------



## limeslide

wkndracer said:


> haha BB was rehomed (nasty $%&** LOL) that was one mean fish!
> 
> The red eyed zerbras will return to the breeding tanks in time but playing with the blues and blacks right now.


xD 

I can't wait to see your adventures with them! Are you going to post the spawns and development of the offspring? What do you plan on doing with so many angels?


----------



## Karackle

hahahaha she certainly sounds like a right old so-and-so :hihi:


----------



## wkndracer

Guess who just won a fish photo contest?
http://www.angelsanddiscus.com/june-2011-juvies.php


----------



## limeslide

Congrats!


----------



## Karackle

congratulations!!!! that's a beautiful fish and a fantastic picture!!! :biggrin:


----------



## comet

Congratulations on the photo contest win. Very nice shot and stunning fish.


----------



## nonconductive

congrats mike!


----------



## wkndracer

*Having a winner*

oh well,, I made the rounds last night and let everybody (the fish) know and that was a BIG mistake!

Now they are all excited ME! No ME! No ME! ME ME ME! LOL


















































Crazy but 107 pictures last night and they were all NUTZ!

Did get a couple half way nice ones though.


----------



## Karackle

hahahaha those first few are hilarious because the fish definitely have that "oh me! look here! me me me me!!! over here! me!" look happening :hihi: 

definitely some nice, pretty and fun shots though! yay for pictures! :bounce:


----------



## wkndracer

haha I've give up on figuring these critters out.
One day they run in fear and the next they are glued to the front glass LOL


----------



## cybercat

Ok I just read this whole thread. Count me in as another suscriber:fish:
I used to breed angles way back when. I am just now looking to get all set up again after many years of no fish tanks. Your journal is better than most books out there. Keep up the good work. roud:


----------



## Bahugo

Congrats on your picture win! You're angels are amazing, will definitly be keeping eyes on your journals. You make me want more angels haha.


----------



## Karackle

HAHAHAHAHA it's like the fish know what you're planning and want to foil those plans, in my experience, when I'm trying to get close-ups of plants, the fish won't get out of my way, but when I try to get pictures of the fish instead, they run and hide! :icon_lol:


----------



## Bahugo

Karackle said:


> HAHAHAHAHA it's like the fish know what you're planning and want to foil those plans, in my experience, when I'm trying to get close-ups of plants, the fish won't get out of my way, but when I try to get pictures of the fish instead, they run and hide! :icon_lol:


:hihi: Whenever I try to get a picture of my fish in my 56g they dart around and uproot a plant.


----------



## sewingalot

You are so dedicated to my fish. Even taking first class winning shots of them. I'm such a proud boarding-school momma. :hihi: Seriously, congrats on the win! Hahahaha, love the fact they are all gathering up for a glamour shot now!


----------



## wkndracer

Only hit the Koi with the camera going through tonight prepping the tanks for our absence.

Growing and showing good color.









































I pulled the black pair from the 20t and moved these over right after the pics were taken. Trying to balance the stocking before leaving town. 

The southern invasion force is currently staged to assault WV tomorrow haha


----------



## wkndracer

*Blues are at it again*

Arriving home this last weekend after a week away this pair wouldn't let me do a water change fisrt LOL. 
So,,, dirty glass and a fresh spawn now at 48hrs. 
Both are still tending well.

























FTS showing the neglected remainder of the tank LOL









Couple shots from the baby 10g too :smile: These are around 2" now.


----------



## nonconductive

welcome home mikey moo! Hope you had a good time!

have those blues spawned for you before? they sure are purrrtyyy!

tank doesnt look neglected at all, just nice and full.


----------



## wkndracer

Hey D! thanx, had a GREAT trip but glad to be home changing water LOL
They spawned before here but had a fertility issue in my water I haven't figured out yet so we'll see with this batch.


----------



## sewingalot

Mikie! I LOVE those koi angelfish. By the way, nice home you've got there. Didn't realize that was at your place until just now. Thought that was your folks' home. Wandered why the trees looked so different. :hihi:

Congrats on the spawn!


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## wkndracer

:angryfire The brats ate the wigglers!
These two parent raised a spawn for my favorite breeder before I bought them. 
Should have had wigglers today and they cleaned off the slate after I went to work. About 1/3 of the eggs went white with most being cleaned out of the group, both parents tended really well after the spawn and this morning things looked good







.
I'll reset things, switch foods up a bit and ask them to try again.


----------



## sewingalot

Punks. Give them a good talking to, and tell them to quit it.


----------



## nonconductive

yea make sure you slap the female around a little bit. that always seems to work.


----------



## wkndracer

Ha! They moved them! I've got wigglers from the blues! 

Now they just need to survive until free swimming in a fully planted tank.
No pics as spooking this pair is last on my list of things to do.
Hoping Carol becomes a long distance GGGGGx10 Gma LOL


----------



## wkndracer

*Day 4 since the spawn*

They moved the fry again today placing them back on the slate so I braved using the camera for some not so great pics. Parents are closely tending still. Day 4 since the spawn. I left reduced feeding instructions for the tank sitter leaving town so thankfully NO3 was only 15ppm when they spawned. I hate to mess with things until they are free swimming so a cleaning and WC are still a few days out. Once they are eating BBS I'll get in there and clean things up some.


























Smaller clutch starting out than I'd like but having them from these two I'm happy.


----------



## firefiend

This thread is almost as phenomenal as your angels are! Great Job!


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## nonconductive

mike you need to come over and train mine on how to do be good parents.


----------



## Eileen

I just looked at all your posts. Wow! Great pictures. I just purchased a nickle sized black angelfish from Petco. It will be in QT for 3 wks. I had problems with angelfish at the lfs before. Hole in head and other deaths from who knows what. I treated with Pimafix,Melafix together for 3 days and give them immune booster flakes, dewormer flakes for 3 weeks before adding to my bigger tank.

I bought this tiny angel to grow up in my 30 gal. bowfront tank to eat some of my Hybrid endler babies. The parents of the endlers, honey gouarmi, 7 neon tetras will not eat the fry. I get fry every month. Hoping the 1 blk. angel will control the over population of in coming fry. 

My friend used to raise angelfish but decided to not do it anymore because of worm problems and health issues. She gave me this website to get medicated flake food. www.angelsplus.com
The owner Steve is really nice and got back to me really fast thu e-mail. If you ever have any issues with your angelfish I would ask him. All his food ordered comes with your choice of a free sample and it's a big sample as are his 3oz. pkg. of food. I ordered 8oz. and it was more then I could use and last along time. I feed immune booster flakes for any new fish I get and de-worming flakes, He also carries other medicated flake food. I like the idea of using food instead of liquid meds. besides the Melafix/Pimafix combo as it is safe for baby fish and even shrimp tanks.

I only have 5 running tanks. 30 gal. is my biggest, 2 are QT or for babies. I'm not buying anymore tanks for fry. Fry are so cute but the numbers can get out of hand. Love your posts of the angelfish.


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## Eileen

*Pic's of my New Black Angelfish*

Forgot to post a picture of my nickel size angelfish I bought at Petco to control excess fry from my endler/hybrid livebearers. This little one is in my 3 gal. QT tank now. I can't wait to watch it grow up to a big angelfish. It's going to love my 30 gal. bowfront tall tank with lots and lots of plants. Need to pick out a name for that little guy. Any good name ideas for a Black angelfish?


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## nonconductive

old blacky


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## wkndracer

Cute little nickle sized black marble angelfish Eileen. I'm aware of Steve's site (he's also a member on TAFF II) but thank you very much posting about him. Naming fish is rare for me even though I have my favorites. 

Update.
Some fry started free swimming with lights on this morning :smile: right on schedule for my tank temperature.

The parents are both busy rooting through the plants low in the tank because the fry releasing are going low rather than high in the water column . Not belly sliding which is the death dance in a tank with substrate but swimming down into the swords and moss rather than up to the light. I'm hoping this changes as the day goes by and more release. I think I'll have around 50 in the clutch so I started a BBS hatchery this morning.

Timeline summary to date.
Last WC 6/19/11 (25%) doing a heavy trim on the plants opening up swimming room in the tank and cleaning the glass and lids.
6/27/11 Parameters check. NO3 10ppm, PO4 1ppm, 3dGH, 2.5dKH.
Left town on vacation 6/29 returning late 7/7 and the spawn occurred on 7/9

The glass has an overall haze of GDA after 3 weeks making pics problematic.


----------



## kered

amazing thread! i read it entirely earlier and have been back perusing it again! let me know the next time you get a good spawn of the silvers from the beginning of the thread...im just right up the road and would love to come down and take some off your hands!


----------



## sewingalot

So basically, visit me on vacation and your fish will spawn. Right? I like that idea. How are the fry doing, Mike? Still around? I hope so! Say hi to the family for me.


----------



## wkndracer

The fry went low and stayed low so loses were expected yet I felt sooner or later some would rise up after the BBS that swim chasing the light. Sadly the numbers faded quickly.
Kuhli snacks I suspect. 
We fed BBS twice daily looking through the algae plastered glass hoping until today. (tank is a disaster!) 
Came home from work today to this!
Oh hell no!


























Just the one floating waterpest in the pan.









Those slate peckers were all set to throw another spawn and NO WAY was I letting that happen! Started staging tools straight away. The whole time I was trimming and scrubbing glass they were pecking me and the slate so the slate went into a pan of H2O2 and what do they do? My girl just swims right over and starts prepping amazon sword leaves! It was kinda incredible, with me siphoning the tank down, gravel vacuuming, trimming the plants and scrubbing the glass they never missed a flip of the fin. Peck the leaf, peck at my hand and right back to the leaf.

It was quite the afternoon but I did prevail and clean the tank.
And they prevailed as well LOL. Didn't even have the lids on and the slate was still bubbling H2O2 out of the cracks in the stone.

















Start the clock folks here they go again. The site is just as high as they could put the eggs almost like they knew the bottom dwellers claimed the last group.

With the corner cleared below the slate and the plants chopped back things are better for the start this time around.


----------



## sewingalot

Got to hand it to them for being so tenacious. :hihi: Love the fact that they were like "Oh, Yeah? We'll just move over to our plant and make babies in the bushes." :hihi:


----------



## nonconductive

haha slate peckers. i guess nothing can stand in the way when love is calling. not even a giant hand.


i hope they make this time mike!


----------



## night9eyes

Busy Busy Angels there M! I can relate. (must be in the water) One of my Pinoys from Carol that is maybe 6 months old just laid some eggs last night! In my community tank. Since this is the first spawn I figure they'll get eaten anyway and no sense pulling, but I thought, "Wow, she's not even paired" (at least there has been no signs of pairing). Has this ever happened to you? I'm waiting for the lights to go on so I can see if the eggs are still there.


----------



## cybercat

I know how you felt when cleaning tank. My two new blues that paired up are them same way to me when doing tank chores.

BTW tank looks great good luck with new brood.


----------



## NStarr

Any updates on the original Angels?


----------



## firefiend

nonconductive said:


> haha slate peckers. i guess nothing can stand in the way when love is calling. not even a giant hand.



Maybe it just added to their excitement *shrug* :icon_lol:


Tanks is looking absolutely gorgeous! You've inspired to me to make my 55G an angel tank. I bought the tank only because I wanted another Red tail shark and couldn't care less what else was in with it... now I definitely want some angels!


----------



## Karackle

gorgeous parents you've got there Mike, I can't wait to see the babies they produce! I hope this clutch does better for you! 

And they certainly are tenacious! hahahaha silly fishies


----------



## wkndracer

NStarr said:


> Any updates on the original Angels?


I lost the male to internal parasites awhile back before I learned how to handle that.
The mother and 5 from the last spawn are still here out in the living room 75R. The red eyes in this strain are just too bright to let go of. Picking another mate for the female when one looks right is in the future.
Pics of them taken today. Not the best as they hid when I approached after trimming and water changes Saturday.

The original female is in the back corner behind the black.









Kids were grouped to the right

























These are my current veggie munchers in the 10g next to my keyboard on the desk. One really pretty albino (wedding gown like) and 14 browns :smile:


----------



## Karackle

those angels do really have gorgeous red eyes! All of your angels are stunning, but I think the original lady and her offspring and your blues are my favorites :biggrin: oh and I really like the ones with the extra wide dorsal fins roud:

And I think I see 2 lovely albinos in that last picture 

I love that you have a tank next to your keyboard, I have 2 tanks in my office, but they're actually behind me when I sit at my desk, my original plan was to put the desk and the credenza together on a corner, but it didn't fit in the space that way  It's still a good break having them in the office, but I miss my desktop fish tank, I might have to rearrange things so I can have a tank on the desk again


----------



## sewingalot

Mike, I'm not sure, what is the plant on the ride back side of the tank? I really like it! Fish look fabulously healthy. And is it flu you use for internal parasites?


----------



## wkndracer

Yup! Flu is about a third of it. Its all in my quarantine thread.
As long TPT is here I won't lose it all again with a computer crash LOL

The plant is Didiplis diandra. Fragile yet tough little plant, I was down to only 4 stems due to neglecting it and now I have about a cubic foot of it again LOL


----------



## NStarr

You truly have some of the most gorgeous Angelfish I've seen roud:


----------



## eser21

loving this thread, thanks


----------



## TankZen

Wow nice angles! : )


----------



## wkndracer

*Changing up the order*

Thanks for comments posted. :smile:
The last group from the blues was small and they are being treated after the move to see if things will improve.

Hoping to be adding the fish I really want shortly.

After the maintenance last week all the tank parameters were matched.
Fish are moving around now changing up the tanks.

Dedicating two tanks to the blacks. (new 29g and a pair here)
The blues have a tank still. (moved to the 55g stump tank)
pb/Koi in the 20T

While I expect to lose the first group (or more) I'll post it.
Moved on 7/26 a pair of DDSV from the 110g spawned on the sword last night. Without the need to battle protecting the spawn site maybe things will change for the better. While pairs have succeeded in community tanks and produced fry the blacks have never made it.
The clutch is small but being tended by both today.

































Last pics of the Koi nickles in the 20T as they are moving today.

















:fish:


----------



## sewingalot

wkndracer said:


> Yup! Flu is about a third of it. Its all in my quarantine thread.
> As long TPT is here I won't lose it all again with a computer crash LOL
> 
> The plant is Didiplis diandra. Fragile yet tough little plant, I was down to only 4 stems due to neglecting it and now I have about a cubic foot of it again LOL


I didn't even recognize it. Mine looked pitiful for so long, I couldn't even remember how nice didiplis looks healthy. LOL.

Okay, I am changing my mind. I am liking the koi more than the black angels now. :biggrin: Great pictures!


----------



## nonconductive

sewingalot said:


> Okay, I am changing my mind. I am liking the koi more than the black angels now. :biggrin: Great pictures!


you change your mind more than i change my panties, errr i mean underwear.


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Okay, I am changing my mind. I am liking the koi more than the black angels now. :biggrin: Great pictures!


Oh my! so you're trading your fish for new ones:confused1:? I see, 
well they were evicted so you have to go find them again. 

Although the new tenants are Koi too they are just from a different breeder and the fins aren't as nice. I acquired seven and culled five :angryfire. These two I kept to see what we see and maybe improve the fins with out crossing. 
They are Platinum Blue X Red Koi.
Knowing for sure I have a pair here.

The tank saw a good scrubbing and plant slashing.










Pictures are about the worst I've posted, I want another camera!


























:fish:


----------



## sewingalot

nonconductive said:


> you change your mind more than i change my panties, errr i mean underwear.


Thanks for that visual. :icon_wink



wkndracer said:


> Oh my! so you're trading your fish for new ones:confused1:? I see,
> well they were evicted so you have to go find them again.
> 
> Although the new tenants are Koi too they are just from a different breeder and the fins aren't as nice. I acquired seven and culled five :angryfire. These two I kept to see what we see and maybe improve the fins with out crossing.
> They are Platinum Blue X Red Koi.
> Knowing for sure I have a pair here.
> 
> The tank saw a good scrubbing and plant slashing.


The tanks are looking good even with the trim from the weed whacker. I like the one on the right the best.

Speaking of changing my mind, my favorite are the old fashioned kind that are kind of dull colors with black stripes. What are they called? I think I'd have a really hard time passing up a pair if I saw them in real life.

When you say cull.....do you mean cull or _cull? LOL_


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Speaking of changing my mind, my favorite are the old fashioned kind that are kind of dull colors with black stripes. What are they called? I think I'd have a really hard time passing up a pair if I saw them in real life.
> 
> When you say cull.....do you mean cull or _cull? LOL_


When I say cull I mean kicked OVER the curb!

Stripes are in the 75R. Since they are the flavor of the minute I guess I should post they spawned today :icon_roll pics in the thread.

D's fish are due to do the deed any hour now too. Meanwhile,,,
practice practice practice I think these fish are school teachers :tongue: after all they stay in schools :help: corny, cheezy, sleezy, grumpy and sneaky
opps thats me.


























:fish:


----------



## AngelfishKid

What do you feed the young fry after they have used up their yolk sac and are free swimmers?


----------



## wkndracer

AngelfishKid said:


> What do you feed the young fry after they have used up their yolk sac and are free swimmers?


best results feeding live foods, baby brine shrimp starting out is best in my experience.


----------



## AngelfishKid

I have only used crushed flakes and that isn't working anymore, haven't had a good spawn in a couple months. 

How many hatcherys should I have going if I wanted to try BBS to feed one pairs offspring?


----------



## wkndracer

Starting one the day free swimming starts is a good plan as I start feeding the following day. Temperature plays a role on how many day after the eggs are laid before free swimming starts and most times not all release at once and they do have a tiny bit of egg sack left at that point. Two hatching bottles with one reloaded everyday is how I do it.
The amount of BBS eggs added each time is based on how large the hatch is. A hatch bottle should provide three feedings a day.

HTH


----------



## AngelfishKid

If I wanted to make the hatcheries 2 liter bottles, how much salt should I add?


----------



## wkndracer

with 1 liter of tank water in the bottle we add a heaping TBS of aquarium or rock salt.
this works for us.

Tons of debate on using only 'clean' water, how often to reset etc. and what we do works so after reading it all I reuse / reload several time and when it starts to smell I change it out. Even Walstad has a post on sustained BBS hatcheries including growing unused BBS large enough to feed adults (but I've never done it).
Using the same shrimp net we harvest with for feeding I remove the empty egg shells and reload over and over. 3-4 days on average.
*
EDIT!: page 10 posts 144, 145 has pics and details of the hatchery I'm still using.*


----------



## AngelfishKid

Thanks!


----------



## wkndracer

*holding it all up*

Receiving a PM last night that could have been triggered by this or another thread I realized the supporting structure for the chain of tanks never made the thread with the focus (mine) being on the fish mainly. LOL 

I mostly forget about the how I do stuff right after I finish a project because for me things like this are easy to figure out. Others well, maybe not so much. We're all different (thank God) or the world would be a boring place and all conversations would be really short.

When I purchased this house I remodeled it some before moving in and built a home office room to help support my construction business. I needed printer / computer space etc. and a large area to layout blueprints when doing estimate take offs for the bidding process. That's how my 'tank room' was born. 35 1/2" finished counter height made standard kitchen cabinet bases perfect for the purpose saving me lots of construction time. Tall enough to stand and look at things without bending too far over and short enough for office work station chairs (some) to be tall enough for the desk end of things. That's what I thought up so that's what I built.

Searched for pictures from that time today with little success.
Excuse the mess plz LOL

















6x6 hardwood floor tile, oak plywood paneled the office and built all the cabinet fillers along with modifying the cabinet to include a file section too. Later when I decided to stack aquariums all over it I had to figure out how to support all that weight. Built for print work no structure was there for all the weight the tanks would add. Took me awhile to figure this out :icon_neut

This is the day after adding the supports and moving the first tanks in. Three backup hard drives and I can find next to nothing in the way of pictures on the steelwork. This was done 5/4/2008 but hey that's no excuse the IRS would except. (just shoddy record keeping LOL)
Through the open cabinet doors you can see the GFI outlet in the back left corner and another was added flush mount on the desktop also.










I used 3/4" schedule 40 steel pipe (1" OD), threaded pipe unions, 3/16 x 1 1/2 x 1 1/2" steel angle for the top support plate and long 3/4" steel bolts for the adjustable lower leg sections.

This is the first cabinet off the wall at the left end.
This is where power, 3 phone lines and 3 Cat5 cables were routed into the desk.








This second picture shows the angle support plate and 2x4 used to spread the load point.









GFI outlets were installed for safety both inside the cabinet and flush mounted on top for access to power without running a bunch of power cords.
The two piece pipe leg and union were required so the assembly was small enough to fit through the existing cabinet opening and be assembled inside. The lower section of pipe has a 3/4" nut welded to the end of the pipe. This allowed the long bolts to be adjusted down against the concrete slab. While I built the desk level and plumb the original concrete slab was well,, is what it is and allowing for adjustment is the only way this worked.









Outlet ports at the back of the cabinet allow hoses, etc to be routed behind the tanks.
















Configured the supports to allow 6' 6" x 24" of area for a tank base so should a 125g or more ever be wanted,,, well it can be landed right here.

so,,, that's the office tank stand/desk


----------



## Karackle

tanks and fish are looking good! look at those little guys practicing, good for them! :hihi:

NICE DIY on the tank support under / inside all the cabinets. Looks good!


----------



## nonconductive

awesome job on the supports mike!


----------



## wkndracer

Thanks:smile:
another one of those 'making this work' kinda things.
Gotta PM from a member doing a remodel who wanted to know what I did to support the tanks so here it is, in the middle instead of the beginning LOL.

Changing a fish fighting/breeding post into a tank journal I've got to do this in the 75g tank thread too. 

haha my threads are all a mess. :redface:


----------



## wkndracer

*On the dark side*

The blacks are trying again and the count is 2/0 if this one fails. 
I'm not giving them 3 strikes and will be setting up a breeding jar and pulling the slate next time.
The girl is still showing fin damage from the fighting in the 110g. 
Thought being moved to the honeymoon tank they would get right to it. Wiggler day all the eggs disappeared overnight.


















*On a darker note hehehe
*
The browns from LFABN parents are getting to the 2" mark and some larger.
I held 14 back when selling the last time and I'm growing these out.


















My fish room also grew another dirt tank tonight :icon_roll
Setting up the 40g on the right side of the desk.
The _Office_ now has 7 water boxes :hihi:


----------



## Karackle

Hahahaha ANOTHER TANK in the "office"? To house the ever growing collection of angels I assume?

Good luck with the Angel spawn, but it sounds like you're set up to raise round 3 yourself if this round fails. roud:

those LFBABNs are looking good, and they're certainly growing very well :biggrin:


----------



## sewingalot

Mike, pretty much you are going to be moved out of your office. :hihi: I think I like the brown bristlenoses better than the albinos.


----------



## wkndracer

Geez! you hurted my fishs feelings!
haha you like me today and on the curb tomorrow.










But since you like the browns now


----------



## semperfimrn1

just went through this whole thread and just have to say WOW!! awesome job!! i wish i could find a male for my lonely female but have a hard time picking a male at the LFS. 

my lonely female was paired up with a male and the male recently died about a year ago. the female still lays eggs but with no male i have had no luck.

any tips you can get me on finding a male? id appreciate it!


----------



## chiefroastbeef

Awesome photos wknracer, thanks for sharing. And that is an old school CRT monitor you have... we are in the second decade of the millennium.


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, so this pleco's eye looks so human to me it kind of freaked me out a bit this morning. It may also have something to do with the ghost show I'm watching, but doesn't this look like a person's eye to you?


----------



## wkndracer

semperfimrn1 said:


> i wish i could find a male for my any tips you can get me on finding a male? id appreciate it!


No way to sex angels without a spawn upcoming / in play (sorry) the head hump thing while many males develop it is a myth. I have known females with humps.


chiefroastbeef said:


> Awesome photos wkndracer, thanks for sharing. And that is an old school CRT monitor you have... we are in the second decade of the millennium.


Thanks and your welcome :smile: trying for good pics is a challenge.

haha yeah that 19" has been with me a LOOOOONG time. Funny you post that as just last weekend we picked up a 23" 1080i LCD w/ max refresh of 60hz  (not thrilled) running dual 7800 in SLI I swear I see a flicker that comes and goes in the display. While the Optiquest was as big as an office refrigerator the display was 75hz and rock solid.
Sadly, looking in the mirror I now qualify as "old school" LMAO



sewingalot said:


> Okay, so this pleco's eye looks so human to me it kind of freaked me out a bit this morning. It may also have something to do with the ghost show I'm watching, but doesn't this look like a person's eye to you?


LOL viewing the pics the clarity of that one was why I posted it.
You do realize fish see better looking out than we do looking in while trapped in the glass box right?


----------



## wkndracer

The pair is at it again.
I *MIGHT* just have a camera that will capture images of black fish when I learn to use it LOL (maybe)


























hatch tanks are in the near future.


----------



## wkndracer

*One step further*

Well they finally are one step further along on becoming parent raisers.
The blacks were moved in on 7/26 spawning on 7/30, 8/10, 8/14 each time at wiggler stage (tails emerging) the slate or leaf would be cleared. 
Spawning occurred again on 8/21 as reported and fully expected to see the vanishing egg trick again. Surprising to me the male drove the female off the spawn site hitting her as pairs normally do to others defending the site. This behavior continued all week with the male beating the stuffing out of the female every time she showed her face out of the weeds at the other end of the tank. Seems Mom was the psycho egg eater.

Wigglers appeared with only dad defending.










Today is day seven,,, free swimmers.


















Whether or not they continue to survive ??? at midday the school shifted to mid tank and the female has approached the group.










The tank is an overgrown mess but the hatchery was started this morning.
My wife says she can see the female now herding, vacuuming and returning stragglers to the group so maybe now off the rock she's over her cannibalizing ways.










































Seeing success to this new level next time I'll provide more support as a DD black group was almost given up on.


----------



## nonconductive

congrats on the swimmers! nice pics!


----------



## DavidZ

Nice use of the Mags
Great selection of Angels
Nice orange Koi, is that an european strain?


----------



## AngelfishKid

congrats on the free swimmers!


----------



## wkndracer

nonconductive said:


> congrats on the swimmers! nice pics!


haha thanx D, _maybe_ figuring out the new camera.


AngelfishKid said:


> congrats on the free swimmers!


Thanks! Hoping they get it right finally.


DavidZ said:


> Nice use of the Mags
> Great selection of Angels
> Nice orange Koi, is that an european strain?


TY!
According to the breeder these came from Red Koi Veil Male and German Platinum Blue female. 
Acquired these first of the year and they are indeed practicing. 
I plan on splitting these two up and out crossing after another purchase of Koi get larger.*
*

























Out of the 10g on the end,, hehe 'you can't see me' LOL










:fish:fish rule


----------



## Karackle

congrats on the swimmers! You got some GREAT shots of the lil buggers too! And just some great shots in general in the most recent batches of photos, love it!  I guess this means I REALLY need to get some new pics up soon eh? :hihi: 

I love LOVE _LOVE_ that last shot of the BLFABN is AWESOME! heeheehee he's so cute!  fish are awesome.


----------



## wkndracer

*8/30 update*

They are eating brine shrimp! Day 9, feeding #6 and feeling optimistic :smile:

Eye for an eye










If the male could he would smack the crap outta me when I approach the tank LOL
I swear he sees the BBS net in my hand and knows I'm feeding the fry when he sees it. Tha camera in hand is another deal all together.
The interior of the glass I'm just going to live with this round as a DD spawn has been a long time coming. 
Received these DDV F1 fish from a breeder in Colorado 8/12/2009 and these are the first free swimmers.










Cranked the ISO up to 6400 helped a bunch. Bell and whistles like remote flash and dedicated macro will come later. 











































:fish:

With tanks prepared and ready I pulled a small Koi clutch along with the latest batch of red eyes from the 75R. These spawns hit the slate on 8/26 so if free swimmers are in high numbers Friday I'll be hip deep again LOL


----------



## wkndracer

So far so good,,, with the fish anyway.
All the added light so they can tend the fry is giving me an algae issue to deal with later. 
Tonight after feeding.










































:bounce:


----------



## HeathBar

Nice pictures! Good luck with the fry.


----------



## wkndracer

*Day #13*

Things change so fast when they are this young. 13 days since the spawn, 6 days swimming.
Dorsal and anal fins are forming. 
Got some shots tonight that make the Nikon worth it at the moment. 
Photos are cropped and the brightness pushed in a couple of shots but this is what the technology captured. (liking it)
hehe bribed my new babies with baby brine shrimp (bet you'd never guess LMAO!)


























They're mother hates the Nikon LOL



















































There be black angels here! In a fully planted tank :smile:
FTS









:fish:


----------



## zachary908

Those are some fattys! Can;t wait to see them grow up.


----------



## Karackle

Wow dude, those are GREAT shots! The new camera is doing great, I can't believe how well it caught the iridescent glitter on the scales on the babies! Gorgeous! They look so funny at this age too, they look like little hunchbacks :hihi: but that makes them that much more adorable, the whole, so ugly it's cute thing :biggrin: 

I'm glad to hear (well read) and see that the babies are doing so well! 

Also, if those full orange bellies are telling me anything, it's that those babies hate the BBS and aren't eating it at all :icon_lol:


----------



## wkndracer

*9/9/2011 photo update*

Day #19 ventral fins are formed now.
Totally bad shot just to express the tank coverage as the fry search for BBS in the plants.










The remains from 5 billion shutter clicks yesterday. LOL


































































































got black?


----------



## WallaceGrover

God, I bet you can just sit there and watch them all day. Amazing little babies!


----------



## wkndracer

Today was the day I lost my mind looking into a 55g angel tank. I trimmed it today.
While it needed it badly enough trimming will make getting fry pics even harder.










and just for giggles that will be the last shot of that tank in this post.
The rest of the desk chain has been neglected with the baby blacks getting all my attention. 
Your post was 100% spot on Wallace as I can sit and look at those little guys all night. But there are two more tanks in the plumbing here.

20T w/a little pair


































and the 10g


----------



## cableguy69846

Wow. Amazing tanks and congrats on the fry. This makes me want angels now. I may have to make that happen.


----------



## wkndracer

hahaha Thanx and just give me a couple more weeks LOL
LFABN for the bottom and angels for the main display. I'll be overrun with both if I don't thin the growing herd.


----------



## Karackle

GREAT SHOTS!!! How cool that they look like so many teeny tiny angelfish now!!! it's amazing how quickly they develop!


----------



## nonconductive

awesome pics mike!


----------



## wkndracer

*9/18 update*

Pictures taken 9/17/2011 so day 27 from the egg.
This is the first spawn I've ever had without any variation in the fry.
They all look very much the same, a few with longer fins but coloration and pattern without change.
Macro shots first.



















































No matter how much light I pump into the tank the fish are black, all black and when the camera actually does focus they appear flat black.
Parents with the best clarity I can get.


















8/12/2009 the parents arrived so two years for the first spawn to make it.


















got black? :smile:


----------



## Bahugo

Aww the babies are cute!


----------



## wkndracer

Bahugo said:


> Aww the babies are cute!


haha thanks, if babies are cute then we've got cute here LOL.


































































babies :icon_roll


----------



## RobertWW

After reading this thread -- it just makes me want to go get a 55 gal tank and a bunch of angels! Very nice job! I love it!


----------



## nonconductive

love the fish & pics!


----------



## Karackle

GREAT pictures Mike!!! Those babies are adorable and really looking like angelfish now!!! And you are right, they are very uniform in their markings! 

I know what you mean about having a tought time getting pics, my dog Cody is black and it's VERY hard to get a shot of him that shows clear features and not just a mass of black fluff! I've given him some hilarious hairdos when I shave him down from his winter ridiculous fluffiness down to his summer hair cut, full body mohawks and the like, but the pictures never come out clearly! So I feel that frustration!  But you managed to get some really nice shots of your adults there! Well done! :biggrin:

Also, those are some great shots of the LFABN and non-albino long-finned albino bushynoses :hihi: LOVE THEM!


----------



## wkndracer

Thanks Kara!, it's nice somehow to know the pain is shared LOL.

Robert, trust me plz, all you need is a 55g and two healthy angels and they will do the rest.

Thanks D and congrats on the wigglers in your tank.


----------



## wkndracer

*40 days from the egg*

40 days from the egg and soon to be separated.
Still feeding BBS but flake is now first. They are always staving LOL
I had thought that once they gained a little size photos would be easier,, not.
Following Mom and Dad as true DD's the auto focus is having a hard time.
Macros.


















































Veils and standard fin are now becoming very obvious and staring for an hour I can't find a single fish with a missing or flawed ventral in the group.
Straight fins and good ventral sizing or you get ice tea for a last meal here. :icon_roll 
Not long to remain in a group as size requires they be split up soon or crowding will become a problem. 
Mom & Pop took forever getting it right but have done a *fintastic* job with these kids.

Full tank shots,,, got black? YUP! :biggrin: Four different times I acquired fish wanting DDSV's and officially I'm happy now. 
*Bwahahaha these came from Colorado (go figure)*


























The entire desk group










:smile:


----------



## mjbubbles

Look at all those cuties! How many are there?
Congratulations!


----------



## zachary908

Awesome photos! Looks like mom and pop did a good job this time!

Nice pun by the way. :hihi:


----------



## wkndracer

mjbubbles said:


> Look at all those cuties! How many are there?
> Congratulations!


haha my wife will guess 75-90 and I won't guess and just say a bunch :smile:


----------



## cableguy69846

Nice fish wknd.:icon_smil


----------



## comet

Full tank shots are amazing! Congrats!


----------



## wkndracer

Thanks for the kudos on the kids (everyone of them :icon_mrgr)

Emailed back and forth with Garrett for about 4 or 5 months. Things had to line up right to get a shipment here. He had to have the right mix with different parents, I had to have an open tank and be able to miss work to receive the delivery. Never thought at that point to have them held at the counter of the local USPS for pickup :icon_roll 

Then after getting them, growing them out and rotating 1/2 of what I purchased from him outta here holding onto the only two female and four males I selected out of 14 fish I was beginning to wonder LOL. Two years for an uneaten spawn well,,, that's a long time LOL But I look in the tank everyday and smile just like the big grin icon. :biggrin:


----------



## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> Thanks for the kudos on the kids (everyone of them :icon_mrgr)
> 
> Emailed back and forth with Garrett for about 4 or 5 months. Things had to line up right to get a shipment here. He had to have the right mix with different parents, I had to have an open tank and be able to miss work to receive the delivery. Never thought at that point to have them held at the counter of the local USPS for pickup :icon_roll
> 
> Then after getting them, growing them out and rotating 1/2 of what I purchased from him outta here holding onto the only two female and four males I selected out of 14 fish I was beginning to wonder LOL. Two years for an uneaten spawn well,,, that's a long time LOL But I look in the tank everyday and smile just like the big grin icon. :biggrin:





Too much work for me.


----------



## comet

> Then after getting them, growing them out and rotating 1/2 of what I purchased from him outta here holding onto the only two female and four males I selected out of 14 fish I was beginning to wonder LOL. Two years for an uneaten spawn well,,,


That is DEFINITELY a reason for a smile!! And don't forget the pat on the back!
Truly beautiful fish you have raised.


----------



## wkndracer

cableguy69846 said:


> Too much work for me.


hahaha aw com' on,,, cleaning the gutter and trimming the hedge is work.
watching fish swim around and hoping for another generation work? I don't see that. Frustrating at times yes, work? not :smile:


comet said:


> That is DEFINITELY a reason for a smile!! And don't forget the pat on the back!
> Truly beautiful fish you have raised.


thank you


----------



## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> hahaha aw com' on,,, cleaning the gutter and trimming the hedge is work.
> watching fish swim around and hoping for another generation work? I don't see that. Frustrating at times yes, work? not :smile:


I don't do either of the first two. But I see your point on the watching fish swimming bit. I enjoy that. Too bad I can't get paid to do it. I WOULD BE AN EXPERT!!!!!


----------



## nonconductive

hahaha mike i can picture you grinning like that sitting in front of the tanks. Thats alot of little angels. mine need to take lessons from yours. with every spawn they quantity increases and the make it a little farther along. so theyre learning atleast.


----------



## wkndracer

Today's qwinky dink.
Realized there is a shifting of pigment in the fry.
With this being new to me I think it's really cool.
I though all my macro shots were out of focus so I was deleting everything today.
(not being a great cameraman figured on operator error) Then I was amazed.
The stripes aren't out of focus or blurred but fading and washing into the skin/scale tone of the fish overall.


















This tail shot shows the color spreading from the rays out into the fin almost like ink staining.










The tank really needs another trim.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Beautiful babies.

Nice to see all your hard work pay off! :biggrin:


----------



## cableguy69846

That fin shot is pretty friggin cool. roud:


----------



## nonconductive

yea mike those are pretty dang nice looking.


----------



## jedimasterben

(for those of you that don't know, that's the "me gusta" face from rage comics lol)


----------



## Bahugo

They are growing up! 

What do you feed juvenile angels for best growth?


----------



## wkndracer

cableguy69846 said:


> That fin shot is pretty friggin cool. roud:


This is in my top 10 of tank pics ever! 
I never realized how they transition and color morph. 
This is my first single genome grouping if that's the correct term. 
Both parents being genetically the same producing a single type of fry. 













jedimasterben said:


> (for those of you that don't know, that's the "me gusta" face from rage comics lol)





Bahugo said:


> They are growing up!
> 
> What do you feed juvenile angels for best growth?


HAHA JMB has it right. Feed em, Feed em, annnnd Feed em.
With a spawn in play we run two brine hatcheries in rotation.
Feeding to full bellies several times a day then adding crushed flake when they get some size before adding the BBS. The majority of my feed stock is from Ed's http://www.almostnaturaltropicalfishfood.com/ (imo) some of the very best available for a number of reasons.

Last night after THREE rounds of crushed flake followed by BBS they still acted starved (sign of health) After feeding for about 90 minutes this how they acted when my wife approached the tank to restart the pumps.
Complete frenzy!














































absolutely little piglets


----------



## cableguy69846

That is all way above my head, lol.

I don't have any experience with all the scientific stuff involved in breeding, I just know that if you put a boy and girl together they will...... well you get the drift.:hihi:

That is a seriously cool pic though. I never knew the color would spread like that. I just thought it slowly changed over the whole fish.


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, if you could see me right now, you would see me grinning proud and practically dancing with excitement. That is fantastic news and a wonderful thread to come back to! I saw the new set of eggs when I was last on here poking around and to see you have 40 day old fry is exciting! :bounce: Forgive me if I am asking something you wrote already, because I am too happy to read right now and am just staring at pictures, but isn't this like after two years of trying? Congratulations!!!

Oh, and your new camera is awesome. Some of those fry pictures are outstanding!


----------



## wkndracer

they were slow learners


----------



## nonconductive

theyre old fashioned. she wanted to be courted first. now that the honeymoon is over... badda bing!


----------



## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> they were slow learners


Better late than never. Lol.



nonconductive said:


> theyre old fashioned. she wanted to be courted first. now that the honeymoon is over... badda bing!


Lol. It was all the Barry White.roud:


----------



## wkndracer

cableguy69846 said:


> Lol. It was all the Barry White.roud:


Stuffing Barry White in the CD player at my house would require:
1) bringing your own disk
2) a really good pair of running shoes
3) being a risk taker that lives for the adrenaline rush
4) a strong desire to not be invited back
5) an over whelming desire to dodge bullets like K Reeves in the Matrix
I can easily add a 100 more to the list before that would happen here


----------



## nonconductive

LOL. 

you forgot an insatiable desire to be bitten by a dog


----------



## wkndracer

my dogs would be too busy howling and rubbing they're ears to bite anything


----------



## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> Stuffing Barry White in the CD player at my house would require:
> 1) bringing your own disk
> 2) a really good pair of running shoes
> 3) being a risk taker that lives for the adrenaline rush
> 4) a strong desire to not be invited back
> 5) an over whelming desire to dodge bullets like K Reeves in the Matrix
> I can easily add a 100 more to the list before that would happen here


Lol. How do you get them to do the dirty than? lol. I am a risk taker, but I smoke too much to run away.roud:


----------



## sewingalot

Not only am I bringing a tape over, I'm singing along to BW when we come to visit. Just so you know.


----------



## wkndracer

sewingalot said:


> Not only am I bringing a tape over, I'm singing along to BW when we come to visit. Just so you know.


no problem.
Sherry has a carry permit and I've got the key to the gun cabinet.
Earl and I will need to have a conversation about insurance.

so Barry that Bubbles! or just wait till I'm totally smashed and pass out.:smile:


----------



## cableguy69846

Lol. I love gun humor. It is always fun. Especially during a thread derailment.:hihi:


----------



## driftwoodhunter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0I6mhZ5wMw
I don't smoke, and I can run! lol


----------



## wkndracer

driftwoodhunter said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0I6mhZ5wMw
> I don't smoke, and I can run! lol


ah man! I thought seeing you had posted the thread was back on topic,
oh well maybe tomorrow LOL


----------



## cableguy69846

driftwoodhunter said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0i6mhz5wmw
> i don't smoke, and i can run! Lol


rofl!!!


----------



## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> ah man! I thought seeing you had posted the thread was back on topic,
> oh well maybe tomorrow LOL


Lol. Unlikely.:hihi:


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## wkndracer

*Day 50 from the egg.*

The fry experienced a full tank trim, gravel vac and glass cleaning for the first time.
LOL Freaked out juuust a little bit. 
Like the parents now the auto focus just laughs,,, black fish, but I like them.


















Looks like less of them with the canopy cut out of the tank, boy did I pull a bunch of L. Reopens and sunset out of that tank.



















Trimming I went right down the line clearing all three tanks.

20T

















10g


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## cableguy69846

Looks good man. Love those fish. Wish I had my 45gal still. I would have to buy some off ya.roud:

What you gonna do with the extra stem plants you cut off?:icon_mrgr


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## wkndracer

Hey Cable, somebody in Texas was wanting what I would ship but hasn't touched my paypal with any funds,,, at least not yet. 
Put a thread up on SnS for the injected tank Didiplis diandra because I've *got* to thin it. Ready right now to turn and follow the top of the tank. 
That tank is the closest thing to perfect I've had, no algae I can find and growing everything. Weird too because both 75g tanks are setup 99% the same yet the right one is 'happier'.

Reading your 'Tankapalooza' where the heck would you have room for a bucket full of plants? LMAO NEVERMIND! I've gotta bunch of frogbit too. R U in need?


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## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> Hey Cable, somebody in Texas was wanting what I would ship but hasn't touched my paypal with any funds,,, at least not yet.
> Put a thread up on SnS for the injected tank Didiplis diandra because I've *got* to thin it. Ready right now to turn and follow the top of the tank.
> That tank is the closest thing to perfect I've had, no algae I can find and growing everything. Weird too because both 75g tanks are setup 99% the same yet the right one is 'happier'.
> 
> Reading your 'Tankapalooza' where the heck would you have room for a bucket full of plants? LMAO NEVERMIND! I've gotta bunch of frogbit too. R U in need?


Maybe. I am looking to set up a 20 high this week, maybe. I will at least have the tank and filter, and I am sure I could scare up some light. I won't have cash till thursday though. So, I would have to let you know then.

Is the frogbit a floating plant? And I still need to get something going in Shrimptopia. I was more interested in the Hygros though.

Oh, and there are updated test results on the 2.5 in my thread from today (10-10)

And the Reapens.


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## wkndracer

Heartbreaking moments are part of family life.
Moved 37 kids to a grow out 55g tank today leaving what we guess to be 55 with the parents. 
Shifting a few more out in the morning. Splitting the group as insurance before leaving for two weeks.


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## cableguy69846

wkndracer said:


> Heartbreaking moments are part of family life.
> Moved 37 kids to a grow out 55g tank today leaving what we guess to be 55 with the parents.
> Shifting a few more out in the morning. Splitting the group as insurance before leaving for two weeks.


Leaving for two weeks? I hope you have a good fish sitter.:icon_eek:


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## wkndracer

cableguy69846 said:


> Leaving for two weeks? I hope you have a good fish sitter.:icon_eek:


haha me too! :biggrin:, Actually hope she's a great fish sitter, house watcher and dog sitter LOL
3 pages of instructions, filled food container, dosing bottles, adjusted timers and fresh veggies in the fridge. Life must go on and my honey wants to go kill Bambi with her little bow. (its sooooo cute) hahaha
This was a happy day for her and hoping she does it again.










:fish:


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## cableguy69846

Lol. You mean zoo keeper.


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## orchidman

nice buck!


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## Bahugo

Can I preorder some Bambi meat? lol.


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## allaboutfish

awesome thread! i just got my first angel, a gold veiltail.


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## wkndracer

Bahugo said:


> Can I preorder some Bambi meat? lol.


nope! she kills it but I insist on eating most of it LOL 


allaboutfish said:


> awesome thread! i just got my first angel, a gold veiltail.


congrats as they are my favorite fish.

Just quick update at feeding time.
I did a massive plant reduction so I could continue to keep half the fry with the parents and doing other things I just snapped 2 quick shots of the frenzy. Everybody is doing great and realistically needing to start looking for new homes. Hopefully the SnS doodoo will settle out soon so I can post them. (ha! we'll see) 

Anyhoot just a couple of "hungry pics"



















finally got DD blacks :icon_cool


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## JessDay06

OMG!! Those fish are beautiful. I have 2 pair myself. They have recently paired up, and one pair laid their first eggs, but then decided the eggs were tasty, so.....

I would deff love to buy a few of those! LMK. I live in KY.


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## SlammedDC2

I'm loving the blacks, I'd also be interested in picking a few up.


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## wkndracer

Looking at the 'now' shrimp tank I thought it looked really good this morning so I'm sharing :smile:










TAFF II is still doing monthly photo contests.
June 2012 was Blacks.
Guess who won?










funny who ha too because I won in June 2011 with another fish so June must be my month LOL


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## nonconductive

congrats mike!

that moss is outta control!


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## Algae Beater

i love this thread! Read the whole thing! 

i have a larger group of angels spread throughout my tanks a breeding pair of Golden veils and a breeding pair of blues (smokey pearlscale and pinoy paribra)

keep us updated please!


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## wkndracer

hey D! the tang and tangled moss is a shrimp maze.
The nitrate level in the tank chain stays at 20ppm or below,, gotta luv a large plant mass.

haha thanxs AB I'll try


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## driftwoodhunter

Nice to see more pics from you! Now we need updates on anything & everything - lol

Beautiful shot of the Angelfish, especially since black is such a hard color to get depth in. With that clarity (and I like the pose, too, great finnage all around) it's not a surprise you won.

Any pics of the beautiful silvers with the red eyes??? ; )


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## wkndracer

aaahhh, the sound of a women's fingers typing demands how I have missed that








Hey there trouble #2 :smile:.
Red eyes are here just off center stage at the moment. I banished the parents to one of the BN grow out tanks and guess what they did? (not hard) fry everywhere LOL

Been reading all you're posts while I lurked around quietly. 
Same ol', same ol' here fish making babies and plants growing.
Neglected things a bit first of the year but I'll try and picture up the threads in the near future.


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## driftwoodhunter

wkndracer said:


> aaahhh, the sound of a women's fingers typing demands how I have missed that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey there trouble #2 :smile:.
> .



HAHA - how I laughed at that! I think I scared my cats :icon_eek:

I've been neglectful of most my tanks too - I need to rearrange a few rooms to make space for the tanks that were taken down & displaced by the new one. I was just going to start on some of the rearrangin' now...lol

Good to see new pics from you, your pics are always amazing! I need to get over & check on cable's progress, too : )


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## seanski21

Umm how far are you from Gainesville? I've kind been thinking about angels lately and reading your thread makes me want them so bad lol


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## wkndracer

about 45 minutes depending on traffic but traffic is getting worse daily it seems

angels are better than devils :smile:


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## wkndracer

*:fish::icon_cool


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## samckitt

Man what are you putting in that water to get them to breed soooooo much? That is awesome. Mine lay eggs everry once in a while. But not that often. Right now I have some babies I am hoping I am able to get them to grow up.










I don't think they are eating anything.


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## wkndracer

really nice looking group! are they darks?
Baby brines (live) are the best feeding a new hatch group


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## samckitt

For the babies I have,

The Mother:
















The Father:


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## wkndracer

haha who says female angels can't have head humps?
Nice looking mature fish. I think the gold marble will increase coverage in the Koi fry overall. Several options on feeding new free swimmers but my only success has been using BBS. 

gotta say again those are nice looking fish Scot


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## dannylill1981

hey man you got some sweeeet angels.....


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## samckitt

wkndracer said:


> haha who says female angels can't have head humps?
> Nice looking mature fish. I think the gold marble will increase coverage in the Koi fry overall. Several options on feeding new free swimmers but my only success has been using BBS.
> 
> gotta say again those are nice looking fish Scot


Thanks. Here are a few more pics from a month or so back. You can see eggs on the filter outlet from another pair, that pair the male is the koi & the female is the marble. This was before I bought the loaches. I had alot of snails, all gone now.


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## wkndracer

ouch! Now I'm sure hassles will follow and I'll have to clean the glass.
I've been lazy on updates and caught some flack over it already now here you are posting more pics than I have in months. hahaha oh well guess I'll get busy.
Nice looking fish again. I've got some high coverage Koi that just started breeding but I haven't pulled the pairs yet. In another tank and thread here but again lacking recent update.

Tank looks square in the pics, what size is it?


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## samckitt

My tank is a 110 gallon. Don't remember the exact dimensions, 48" wide, like 18 front to back, & like 30 tall. 

So in the wild what baby angels eat? Do they eat mucus off of the bodies of the parents like Discus do?


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## wkndracer

Reading knowledge only on wilds but bug larva and diatom type algae would be a good guess. Gotta remember in the wild only two surviving from a pair in it's entire lifetime continues the species, why they spawn hundreds is because hardly any survive.

In my tanks when not fed enough I've seen them peck/pull slime off the parents and off Briggs snails also. Clutches that figure out they can feed off adults can kill the parents but it doesn't happen often that they feed off the parents (a good thing). At about 2 weeks old I watch them start regularly pecking at mosses and algae in tank between feedings. 

waaaay back in the thread.
Angel pigging out on algae (see it is good for something)









Angels eat snail slime too.









Got that update posted on the Koi tank.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=90878&page=9


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