# 29 Gallon Forest Scape. Critique welcome! (pic heavy)



## Michael T (Jan 1, 2013)

I really dig the concept. Looks great IMO


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## pinkman (May 16, 2013)

tank looks awsm. i respect the thought that went into this. nice work.

i can dig it.


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## Big Dog (Nov 4, 2009)

Looking good.


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## yanzco (May 29, 2013)

thats awesome!!..
whats the dark oozy looking thing in the pot?..


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

looks good. great sense of depth.


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## Nambroth (Apr 21, 2012)

This makes me want to rip my tank apart and start over, but I'm out of money! Maybe next year! I think this will look fantastic. It already looks great!


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## Royal Pleco (Sep 11, 2011)

Looks awesome.. Well done.


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## Dave Allen (Aug 5, 2011)

Gorgeous! I love tanks where the hardscape extends out of the tank like this! Great placement of the smaller pieces to look like roots and trees in the background. Will you put any plants on the branches above the waterline?

IMHO, my only suggestion would be to take a chisel or Dremel to the end of the branches. You have such a well laid out scape and I'd love to see what's happening above the waterline balance everything below.

A lot of bonsai artists will carve the deadwood of trees to make them look older. Since your wood is all deadwood, there is no limit what you can do with it! If you want any inspiration, here is one of my favorite examples:






But then again, your scape is pretty awesome already! Well done!


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks for all the encouragement, everyone! It means a lot to me.



yanzco said:


> whats the dark oozy looking thing in the pot?..


The thing in the square glass? It's a tuft of erio minis! Someone gave this to me but I'll be honest, I'm scared to put it in my tank because I'm afraid of killing it. D: I heard they need CO2 and my tank isn't set up for that yet.




Nambroth said:


> This makes me want to rip my tank apart and start over, but I'm out of money! Maybe next year! I think this will look fantastic. It already looks great!


Your tanks all look amazing. Shhh.



Dave Allen said:


> Will you put any plants on the branches above the waterline?


Yes! That's the plan, anyway. Here's a mockup I made earlier when I was still planning stuff out:










I don't know what kind of plants I'll use because I've never done anything like this before. Gonna see if Hydrophite can hook me up with something cool!

Thanks for the video! I watched the whole thing and it was really inspiring. The thing with the fire and the wire brush was amazing. I never would have thought of that. 

Anyway, you read my mind -- the flat tops of these branches are driving me crazy. Unfortunately I can't pull them out without the whole scape falling apart, so I'd have to carve them in the tank. I'm not sure how well I would be able to isolate all the sawdust if I carved it where it was... I think my best bet now might be to just cover up the ends with plants at this point. I wish I had thought of carving the ends earlier when it would have been easy, but that's what I get for having no idea what I'm doing! Hindsight is 20/20. 

Thanks a lot for the suggestions! I appreciate it.


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Like magic, the tank is cycled.

I got most of this setup from a friend who was getting it ready for goldfish. She'd only had everything running for a month or so and she said she didn't know the status of the cycle yet when she gave it to me. It also took me an entire month to get the tank set back up again. I kept the filter full of water but I was sure that all the bacteria in there would have died without food.

Anyway, on the first try the filter processed 4 ppm of ammonia in 24 hours, and there were no nitrites.

Despite that, I'm going to wait for a bit before adding any fish. I want to try futzing with a new fertilizer regimen and maybe try setting up some DIY CO2, and right now there aren't any fish to kill so it's a good time to experiment.

One thing I did notice is a problem is evaporation. It has been warm and the tank lost like a gallon and a half of water in one day. The office is like a swamp. I'm going to try making a custom acrylic lid but in the meantime it's getting saran wrapped.


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

Dave Allen said:


> A lot of bonsai artists will carve the deadwood of trees to make them look older. Since your wood is all deadwood, there is no limit what you can do with it! If you want any inspiration, here is one of my favorite examples:


Oh wow! That was an amazing video! I've looked into the "basics" portion of the bonsai info available. It is so inspiring to see what some people do with bonsai! 



rah-bop said:


> This is my first attempt at a serious aquascape.


This tank is so awesome! The amount of thought that went into this project is great! I look forward to seeing how it develops.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Very interesting!!
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u140/rah-bop/scape2.jpg~original
Where did you get the idea from. The spiral ends where you want something bold to catch the eye?

I was thinking for the for the plants curving over on top vals or crypt spiral.


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## MikeP_123 (Aug 31, 2008)

Cant wait to see the next update. Great job!


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## thebuddha (Jul 16, 2012)

are you not running co2?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Googling aquascaping found the form you are using here.


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Hilde said:


> Very interesting!!
> http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u140/rah-bop/scape2.jpg~original
> Where did you get the idea from. The spiral ends where you want something bold to catch the eye?


The spiral is called the Fibonacci Spiral or Golden Spiral and the grid is the rule of thirds. These are both tools for planning artistic compositions. You can use it for paintings or photography or, as you found out, even aquascapes. I liked the article that you found! Thanks for the link. 



Hilde said:


> I was thinking for the for the plants curving over on top vals or crypt spiral.


I agree! In the back I planted jungle vals and chain swords.


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

thebuddha said:


> are you not running co2?


Not yet, though I'd like to as soon as possible. I have a tight budget right now so I'm probably going to put together a DIY CO2 system when I can. In the meantime I'm using some Flourish Excel that I found in the basement. The plants are growing aggressively so I guess something is working...? No pearling anywhere but the giant baby's breath is growing about an inch per day. I'm seeing a lot of new growth even on the moss. Meanwhile some other things are melting. I don't even know. Plants.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rah-bop said:


> I'm probably going to put together a DIY CO2 system when I can. In the meantime I'm using some Flourish Excel


Here is my favorite DIY set up. 

Some plants like vals are sensitive to excel.

The artistic composition link simplified it. Thanks!!


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## binbin9 (Jan 31, 2012)

looking great!!! I love all the magic quadrants, golden rule, spiral, rule of thirds etc.... you over layed. I'm very interested in seeing how this turns out.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

prob one of the top 3 of my fav tanks on this forum job well done


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## EngineChauffer (Apr 3, 2013)

Very beautiful tank, great start!


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## Aquaticus (Jan 7, 2013)

Very cool! Subscribed!


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## tizzite (Mar 28, 2010)

Very cool. impressive planning and execution. I look forward to seeing the plants grow out of the water and onto those branches.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Tis my favorite and I have been collecting pics since 2007.

Just would put some tall plants on the lefts side. Also there is a branch that is almost in the middle which I would remove.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

any updated pics?


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Alright, it's been about a month since I got everything set up. Here's what's going on.









Most notable addition is probably some plants coming out the top. There's philodendron, some ivy from the back yard, and a small stem of dracaena of some type. I have a CFL shop/clamp light attached to a lamp post that illuminates them, but it looks really ghetto so I moved it out of this shot. Anyway, the plants are growing really well and I'd like to add a lot more.









I got a few animals: 4x otocinclus, 6x rummy-nose tetras, and about 20 Taiwan fire red shrimp. There are still plenty of tannins in the water but nobody seems to mind.



















The rummy-noses wouldn't stay still for a photo so you'll just have to use your imagination.

A month ago I tied a bunch of moss onto rocks. This is what a month of moss growth looks like for me:









There are three moss rocks in the center of this photo. The one in front is peacock moss, top left is christmas, top right is willow and the only thing that has grown on that one is some BBA that I need to take care of.









A fissidens rock










Evaporation was becoming an issue so I made a lid out of a piece of acrylic. It is two panels -- a front and a back -- with holes for the wood and tank equipment. I can put the roots of my surface plants through the holes. I cut this all out with a dremel, which was probably the least efficient way of doing it but it was all I had. It looks pretty rough in person but it's better than nothing!

Before I made my lid I just covered the surface of the water with sheets of saran wrap. The plants (and algae) grew like gangbusters. When I switched to the acrylic sheet the light was reduced considerably. Some of the parts in the back got so dark that the plants died. I'd like to get a second light for the back. I'm thinking of a Finnex Monster Ray. The quality of the light is gorgeous, especially in combination with the Ray 2 (what I'm using here) but I don't know if the light is strong (or useful) enough to reach all the way to the bottom. Don't know! Suggestions welcome. Most of the plants in the back are all low-light so they're doing alright.

I have some dramatic slopes in the back, too. In the back corners the slopes are about 7" high. Here you can see the strata of substrate:









Fluorite at the top, lava rocks and aquarium gravel underneath.









And finally, some sound-proofing for the filter and air pump. Supposedly the canister filter should be silent but mine is really loud. I think I may have damaged it the first time I turned it on. Boo.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rah-bop said:


> Alright, it's been about a month since I got everything set up. Anyway, the plants are growing really well and I'd like to add a lot more.
> 
> There are three moss rocks in the center of this photo. The one in front is peacock moss, top left is christmas, top right is willow and the only thing that has grown on that one is BBA
> 
> ...


Moss loves KNO3. Have you checked your nitrates. Also if you have an abundance of phosphates in your water BBA will grow. That is what happens in my tank. Adding KNO3 kill this algae. With the reduction of lights with a siesta. Like 4hrs on 3hrs off 4hrs.

I thought you were using a shop light. I saw a tank with Finnex Monster Ray and Ray 2. Looked very nice.

Concerning the canister filter, did you check the propeller in the motor?


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## mot (Sep 17, 2011)

Thats pretty crazy soundproofing you got going. I had similar issues with that same filter and finally gave up and purchased an eheim 2217. Check the white piece of plastic you can seeing looking down into the in port and make sure its positioned correctly.


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## Lowe (Nov 11, 2011)

Gorgeous tank. I like where things are going with this one...


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## bennyjam (Nov 6, 2012)

This tank is one of my favorite 29g scapes. Well done, sir.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

rah-bop said:


> And finally, some sound-proofing for the filter and air pump. Supposedly the canister filter should be silent but mine is really loud. I think I may have damaged it the first time I turned it on. Boo.


Egg crate foam is not so good for soundproofing. It may work well enough but if it's not working for you, a good alternative would be moving blankets. You could make a little frame for them using floor boards and a staple gun. Or you could go all out an use 703 fiberglass panels as well. You need to frame them and cover them if you don't want to be itchy all the time. If interested, look them up on google "703 absorber" or hit me up, either are really simple to do and could be done for pretty cheap. I only say this because I plan to do the same on my next tank if my stand is big enough to allow me to do so.



Great tank. I almost wish it was a 37 gallon which is ironic because it's my least favorite tank size ever. It would work so well for this though.


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

Good job!

The time and effort you put in to the design of this tank has paid off well. You achieved the image you were set on creating, and that is often easier said than done. This scape has depth, it gives off a mood and really takes me somewhere else within my imagination as I look at it..

You may have seen another thread on this board with Mot's Moss Canyon aquascape. Your creation along with his seem to be in another league of aquascaping, both being quite original pieces. Very nicely done!


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Hilde said:


> Moss loves KNO3. Have you checked your nitrates. Also if you have an abundance of phosphates in your water BBA will grow. That is what happens in my tank. Adding KNO3 kill this algae.


Does the nitrate (NO3-) test kit detect KNO3 as well? I tested my nitrates just now and they are 0. None of the supplements I'm using seem to contain KNO3 so I'm assuming that is 0 as well. I am kind of a noob at plants and I'm doing my best to learn, so I'll try researching KNO3. How much do I need? Is there a test kit for it? I don't know anything about dosing with this.

Also, where do phosphates come from? How do I know if I have too many, and how do I reduce them? Sorry for all the questions. You don't have to answer if it's annoying. I'll try looking it up on my own, too. 



Hilde said:


> Concerning the canister filter, did you check the propeller in the motor?


I did when I was first setting it up and I didn't see anything weird with it. On the other hand I don't know what I'm looking for. 



mot said:


> Thats pretty crazy soundproofing you got going. I had similar issues with that same filter and finally gave up and purchased an eheim 2217. Check the white piece of plastic you can seeing looking down into the in port and make sure its positioned correctly.


I have an Eheim 2213 on my other tank and I love the hell out of it. The Fluval 405 has a lot of things I like about it and some things that I don't like. I've heard from others that this filter should be silent, and since mine isn't silent I'm sure I've screwed something up. I've tried taking it apart and reassembling it so many times, I've watched videos about it on youtube and scoured the internet for troubleshooting tips but eventually I just got mad and soundproofed the cabinet. For the most part it reduces the noise to tolerable levels, though I can still hear it. It sounds a lot like the air pump, though mercifully a little softer. It's just a consistent mechanical whirr.

Next time I clean the pump I'll try taking a look in there and seeing if I find anything weird.



talontsiawd said:


> Egg crate foam is not so good for soundproofing. It may work well enough but if it's not working for you, a good alternative would be moving blankets. You could make a little frame for them using floor boards and a staple gun. Or you could go all out an use 703 fiberglass panels as well. You need to frame them and cover them if you don't want to be itchy all the time. If interested, look them up on google "703 absorber" or hit me up, either are really simple to do and could be done for pretty cheap. I only say this because I plan to do the same on my next tank if my stand is big enough to allow me to do so.


This is great advice! Thanks! I may try this out at some point. The soundproofing I did is okay but I can still hear the filter.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

Any updates?

I love the concept and execution. I think the concept has a lot of potential for a angelfish or discus tank with all the broken lines of sight and mild lighting.


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## LICfish (Oct 9, 2010)

I love your tank! Subscribed


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rah-bop said:


> Does the nitrate (NO3-) test kit detect KNO3 as well?
> I'll try researching KNO3. How much do I need?
> Is there a test kit for it? I don't know anything about dosing with this.
> 
> ...


There is an individual KNO3 test kit. More info on KNO3 here.

I know the city is treating my water with phosphates.  Here more info on phosphates

I am using the Eheim 2213 on my 29G. The eheim's are my favorite.


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Thanks for the info, Hilde! Something is definitely out of whack in here so maybe that will help.

Moving on, I have some pictures! Horray! Most of them are terrible.










Here's what it more or less looks like at the moment. I realize this photo doesn't let you see much so I'll try taking better pictures soon.









Here's what it looks like looking in from the left side.









Some of the plants on top. Pictured is a peace lily, green philodendron, ivy, some kind of dracaena and what I'm guessing is a pothos. I also have a spider plant now (not pictured.) It's getting there! I like all these plants but it makes the back of the tank pretty dark. I'd like to get a second light for the back but it's not in my budget right now. 



Since the last update there have been a few new additions: 11 neon green rasboras (Microdevario kubotai) and 8 tiger shrimp. 

















The rasboras are SO hard to photograph because they tiny, fast, and never stop moving ever. They're really beautiful, though! Metallic green with a flash of blue on the top. These have been some of my favorite fish for years but this is my first time owning any.

I'd always heard they were a schooling fish but these ones won't school under any circumstances. But that's okay. 









The tiger shrimp are also difficult to photograph because I rarely see them. There are only 8 of them in this heavily planted tank so I only see them on occasion. I'd like to get more soon because I love tiger shrimp.

The other inhabitants are all doing well. I didn't expect the shrimp to breed with so many fish in there but the Taiwan Fire Red population exploded everywhere. There are baby shrimp covering every surface. I love it. 



















The rummy-nose tetras are also doing well and getting fat. They are very interested in me.




























Okay so that's the good news. Now the bad.

ALGAE. I've been really busy lately and tank maintenance fell by the wayside for a few days. For a little while it turned into an _algae fiesta. _









The BBA is actually kind of getting under control, though it's still in there. Now it's hair algae armageddon. 










I'm working that. 









HYDRAS. I also need to get some fenbendazole next time I'm out. Working on that too.

Finally, a bunch of my plants are suddenly doing pretty badly. 









This is my staurogyne repens. It turned yellowish for a while and then one day shed all its lower leaves. A lot of my other plants are turning yellow and splotchy, shedding older leaves and so on. 

On the other hand my mosses are growing completely out of control, so at least there's something that's doing okay! The vals are also quite fabulous. Some of the leaves are maybe 4 ft long.

I'm doing my best but I'm still a noob when it comes to the subtler nuances of keeping plants. Despite my (admittedly modest) research into it I don't know what the deficiencies are -- and there clearly are deficiencies! Hopefully I'll get the hang of it soon.


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## maximusprime (Mar 4, 2013)

I had the exact same problem with my staurogyne repens! It just withered and died all of a sudden. It has since sprouted new leaves but I still have no idea what caused it.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 2


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## Tiptop (Apr 15, 2013)

Man! What a beautiful tank! Really love the composition and the added depth from the slope. Definitely gonna do something similar for my next scape


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

That sucks about the algae but this tank is stunning. That is quite an accomplishment because IMO, a 29 gallon is extremely hard to scape in general, much less in a natural style.


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## pseudomugil (Aug 12, 2013)

Subbed!
your tank is awesome! I love the way the moss and ferns are growing on the wood, it looks really natural which is hard to get in a 29 gallon tank


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## LICfish (Oct 9, 2010)

Your tank inspired me to start a forest scape 12 gallon shrimp tank. I was thinking of using a Fugeray instead of a Ray 2 (which I think you have right?). Do you think plant growth could work with a Fugeray instead?


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Wow, what an honor, LICfish! I'd love to see it when you get it running! 

Yes, I have the Ray 2. I chose this one because it's apparently the best bang for your buck for a deep(ish) tank, but it is SO bright. I don't have a CO2 system and even with fairly aggressive dosing of Excel and fewer hours of light my tank is algaemageddon. I am sure that there are other factors contributing to my algae problem but the light certainly is one of them. 

Not that I really know what I'm talking about here, but if you are doing something as small as a 12-gallon I would definitely recommend against the Ray 2. It is so stupidly strong. Also, the quality of the light is really washed-out and everything looks a little drab in my opinion. The Finnex Monster Ray has gorgeous light quality and if you have shrimp I think that would make them glow with color. I don't know what kind of plants you're growing, though, and I don't know what kind of PAR you could get with a Monster Ray, but the good news with a 12 gal is that you don't have a huge amount of depth so you can get away with lights that are less intense. I would look into Fugerays or Monster Rays instead of the Ray 2 if I were in your position.

P.S. I'm pretty new to aquascaping and I barely know what I'm talking about so please keep that in mind.


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## LICfish (Oct 9, 2010)

rah-bop said:


> Wow, what an honor, LICfish! I'd love to see it when you get it running!
> 
> Yes, I have the Ray 2. I chose this one because it's apparently the best bang for your buck for a deep(ish) tank, but it is SO bright. I don't have a CO2 system and even with fairly aggressive dosing of Excel and fewer hours of light my tank is algaemageddon. I am sure that there are other factors contributing to my algae problem but the light certainly is one of them.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input :smile: I also think the Ray 2 would be too strong since I'm not planning to dose too much Excel into the tank. I hear shrimp are sensitive so I'll try to keep only low-med light plants in this one. 

I have a silly question for you. Where do you get the egg crates? I have no idea where to look and amazon seems expensive. I must be looking at the wrong ones.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

LICfish said:


> I have a silly question for you. Where do you get the egg crates?


I have seen them at Lowes or Home Depot in the lighting section. They are sold as light diffusers.


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## LICfish (Oct 9, 2010)

Hilde said:


> I have seen them at Lowes or Home Depot in the lighting section. They are sold as light diffusers.


Thank you. Now I'll stop distracting from this thread. I'll keep looking at updates for more inspiration :smile:


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Updates?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rah-bop (Apr 28, 2012)

Some pretty big changes this time. A lot of the plants were growing pretty wildly, and while it was nice that they seemed so lush there wasn't any organization and they didn't contribute well to the overall aesthetic. If that makes any sense. The crazy amounts of moss also made the tank really dark and cramped.

The moss looked okay in photos but in reality it wasn't very healthy and it was leggy and brown. I stripped most of the moss off all the branches, so now there's some contrast between wood and plants, which I prefer. The hairgrass also looked nice in photos but in person it was ugly as could be, stringy and gross. I ripped it all out for now and I think I'd like to replace it with marsilea minutia or glosso or something.









This was right after tearing everything out in late October.









I also added some height to the back, and I think that improved it. I will probably add more height later.

Here's how it looks now in late December. You can see it's grown back in a lot.

















New additions include a ton of tiger val to fill in the whole back left side. There's also some small stems of limnophila aromatica and hygrophila pinnatifida. Good luck finding them!









New additions above the waterline include Tillandsia usneides (the stringy one) and Tillandsia ionantha Guatemala (the spiky one.)









This peacock moss is escaping. Months ago when I first planted this tank I had some small bits of HC. It died everywhere except for this bit which has rooted in the moss and is now growing emersed. I couldn't pick it out if I wanted to. 


So now I have some decisions to make: 

1. The big branch on the right (the shorter of the two sticking out of the water) is starting to decay significantly. This is kind of a surprise since the big branch on the left is from the same tree but is doing great. The right branch doesn't look that great anyway so the question is not if I'm going to remove it but when. Uuuugh it's going to be so much work fixing all the destruction the removal will leave behind. 

I also want to remove the big straight branch in the center because it's really ugly. Once I have some of these big straight ugly sticks removed I'm going to try filling the holes with these: 









some manzanita branches and miscellaneous roots I gathered while hiking last summer. Just need to find time to start boiling them up. 

2. Second thing I'm struggling with is algae. The BBA is growing aggressively everywhere. I already have a pretty short photoperiod, I tried dosing hardcore with Excel but not only did it have no effect but it was really hard on the inverts, and dosing ferts so the plants could outcompete the algae just made a greater assortment of algae grow. Currently I'm fighting it with hydrogen peroxide but it's killing the hell out of my sensitive plants (my fissidens, noooo.) I'm just having to come to terms with the fact that I can't have delicate plants while I have BBA. 

My original plan when getting the Finnex Ray II was that I would also get pressurized CO2 but that didn't happen and I can't see it happening in the foreseeable future. So maybe a better option would be to downgrade the light. The Finnex Planted+ looks promising, and I like that the LEDs extend all the way to either end of the light instead of being right in the middle. We'll see.

3. One day I was cleaning the canister filter and when I poured out the water all these shrimp of all ages came flying out. I've always had either nylon or foam over the intake so I didn't expect this at all. I managed to save the ones I could find but just for an experiment I saved about a cup of gross mulmy water before pouring it out. Once the mulm settled I found these in there:









And this was just one cup! How many did I murder while cleaning my filter? How many more must be in there? I'm going to have to be much more careful and/or make extra intake prefilters. 

In other news, the non-filter-dwelling animals are doing pretty okay. Currently I have 6x neon green rasboras (microdevario kubotai), 5x rummy-nose tetras, 3x otocinclus, 1x goldring danio (danio tinwini), and one female electric blue ram. Also huge quantities of fire red shrimp, and some unknown number of tiger shrimp.

The goldring danio is really neat but I only have one for some reason. I'd like to get some more as they're a schooling fish. Also they're super cool. I love danios.









I am head over heels in love with her. I don't know how old she is; I wonder if it's worth trying to find her a boyfriend.









Microdevario kubotai (neon green rasboras)































































I've seen a few berried female tigers but never any babies. I don't know if they're not hatching, or they're getting eaten, or they're in the plants somewhere and I just haven't seen them yet. Or in the filter, I guess.


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## sophieydg (Nov 19, 2013)

This is definitely one of my favourite tanks ever! Awesome work!


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## Asu1776 (Mar 5, 2013)

Love the setup of this tank. Definitely competition worthy!


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

Props to your tank!


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## The Trigger (May 9, 2012)

Awesome setup. Very nice pics too!


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## Niyona (Feb 20, 2010)

This is just... WOW!


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## JEFF9922 (May 8, 2013)

I love how natural it looks


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## birbaliktanki (Jun 18, 2014)

you have some serious aquascaping skills. very impressed. for the vals, i think vallisneria nana would blend in better than the tiger, its leaf size is, i think more proportional.


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