# Why Pay for Nutrient Rich Substrate?



## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

You are posting similar questions in your other threads. Give the forum a little time and you can probably get your questions answered. You will difinitely need (2) Ray 2 to have the tank your describing though. One Ray 2 over a 75g will give you poor results I am sure.

Eco yields poor results with carpeting from what I have read. MG in your case is not a good idea if you plan to rearrange a lot. If your on a budget, it think your best choice is probably Safe-t-sorb. If you will be dosing the heck out of it, the charging of it will be high. It's fairly small in size and very uniform. It is light though but I can see HC growing in it. I use it for my growout and I will probably choose it for my Living Rm display tank when I set it up.

Unless your topping dirt, I wouldn't bother capping with sand on anything else. Capping flourite/eco really does nothing for they are substrates that can be used alone as is. Eco and flourite are not too expensive imo. That title belongs to Aquasoil. Safe-t-sorb can be bought at Tractor Supply for about 10-13 bucks for a large bag. It should take no more than 1-2 bags of it. I think I used 1.75 worth to give me 3" in my 125g tank.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

For a tank that size, I would go with 2.5" of dirt and a 1" cap of sand. If you plan on doing a lot of rearranging then go with a darker colored sand. I can't see you poking holes in your carpet to add more root tabs, sounds painful.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tank Costs*

Hello getz...

That's quite a tank you have in the works. You'll need some deep pockets. it would be simpler and less expensive if you light the tank with a four fixture shop light from the hardware store. A 48 inch fixture with 4 6500K GE, T8 aquarium plant bulbs is $50.00. This setup will give you plenty of light for most aquarium plants.

There are many other less expensive options that will produce a nicely planted tank. Use these and you won't need to take out a second mortgage on your home to supply your tank habit. More expensive isn't always better, just more money.

Your call, however.

B


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Practical is what I would recommend for anyone not experienced in planted tanks.
None are perfect in that they all have at least one thing "wrong" with them.
Color might be, but I'm not counting that in a "wrong" category.
CEC you might want to consider. Sorry can't say what the letters stand for but a scale of
how much that material can/will absorb nutrients when they are heavy(just after you added some)in the water and then when those nutrients get used up, release what they
absorbed back into the water. IMO useless if you are using EI ferts, but may be useful
for any other type of ferts.
Black Diamond(also called Black Beauty)blasting sand has no CEC value, but would be your practical inert dark sub. No CEC being it's wrong thing.
Safe-T-Sorb, Kitty Litter(without any perfume)or "Floor Dry" all the same, different
makers names, drains something from the water. GH/KH/PH I don't know which one.
Perhaps someone will tell you what that is. But does have a high CEC level.
That would be the lighter color practical sub.
Pool filter sand often used for consistent grain size also is in the lighter color but very
easy to get trash on top of and needs constant cleaning the surface of for those who
want it spotless. If you check at your local home improvement center they might have
"Quick Crete" sand in clear plastic bags. This is often a tan color instead of WHITE.
Anything mentioned above will work with root tabs or capsules.
Those tabs or capsules are IMO no way necessary but are helpful/w certain plants.


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## Argus (May 22, 2013)

Anytime you top something with something else you will get a mess when you rearrange things. Get a fine gravel that has a grain size of 1-2mm dia. That will allow the amount of water circulation the roots need. If you plan to have bottom feeders it would be best if the grains were rounded rather than sharp.

Caribsea Peace River fits this criteria, but is expensive at over $1 per lb.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I'd go with the SafeTSorb. The color is a medium tan, very natural looking and the price is so right. I paid $7 shipped for a 40 pound bag which goes a long way as the stuff is very light weight. Sand can be cheap but you would need 3-4x the weight, don't think it is that cheap plus you lose the CEC of the STS. CEC holds nutrients for a later day, sand and gravel have zero CEC. STS has better CEC than a lot of the special planted tank substrates too.

You do need to invest in fertilizer too. Get a set of dry fertilizer powders and probably dry dosing a 75 gallon tank would be easier. Fill up little containers with daily doses once a week or calculate and dissolve measured amounts of the powders in a given volume of water every couple weeks and you still have to measure it out daily. 

Commercial root tabs are just iron and potassium, a high tech tank like yours needs all of the essentials, NPK+M. You don't really need them, aquatic plants get nutrients mostly from leaves as the roots mostly are for anchoring. There are a couple of ways to make up better root tabs. Those with access to the pelleted stuff than includes micros fill gel caps with it and push to the bottom of the tank. The empty pellets are a nuisance. I mixed my NPK+M into natural clay and dried little button shaped tabs, makes a mess if you happen to dig down to a tab. Or real old school, get Jobe's fertilizer sticks, I believe palm and fern are the best kind but I could only find house plant, the leftover from that is a really icky paper if you happen to dig one up. Those must degrade completely after a while though, I used them for a while and don't remember seeing them when I broke down the tank.

And full disclosure, I have dumped the gravel/STS/Pond Soil substrate for ADA AS after 15 years. My old substrate couldn't hold a slope and the gravel mixed in made the tiny leaves of the Belem hairgrass look awful until it could carpet. Not noticing any better rooting but I can push errant hairgrass plants back into the substrate which never worked before and the slope held up nicely.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Kathyy said:


> I'd go with the SafeTSorb. The color is a medium tan, very natural looking and the price is so right. I paid $7 shipped for a 40 pound bag which goes a long way as the stuff is very light weight. Sand can be cheap but you would need 3-4x the weight, don't think it is that cheap plus you lose the CEC of the STS. CEC holds nutrients for a later day, sand and gravel have zero CEC. STS has better CEC than a lot of the special planted tank substrates too.


Turface, available at John Deere stores, is the same basic thing. So you've got options. Cheap ones.

*edit* it's all the same as Flourite. Baked clay. Eco is crushed lava rock, and has about the same CEC as Flourite.


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

tuffgong said:


> For a tank that size, I would go with 2.5" of dirt and a 1" cap of sand. If you plan on doing a lot of rearranging then go with a darker colored sand. I can't see you poking holes in your carpet to add more root tabs, sounds painful.


Great point with adding root tabs to a carpeted floor. You're right. Not gonna happen....DUH. Somehow I failed to see the challenge in that. LOL!!!! Thanks for pointing that out.

So when hobbyists talk about clouding up their tanks while moving plants around with a dirt substrate, how much disturbance are we talking about? I can imagine that the thicker and more deeply planted roots will obviously do the most "mucking up", but with good filtration how long before the water clears back up? Hours or days??

Also, since I'm thinking about it, will this disturbance actually harm anything like ph values, etc.?


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

*Unfortunately Too Late*



BBradbury said:


> Hello getz...
> 
> That's quite a tank you have in the works. You'll need some deep pockets. it would be simpler and less expensive if you light the tank with a four fixture shop light from the hardware store. A 48 inch fixture with 4 6500K GE, T8 aquarium plant bulbs is $50.00. This setup will give you plenty of light for most aquarium plants.
> 
> ...


Yeah this may end up being more costly than I had budgeted. :frown2: It's just the way the cookie crumbled on this journey. A friend of mine is getting out of the hobby and I wanted something more than my current 29 gallon, so I bought his 75 gallon tank w/ stock 40w light, a nice sized powerhead, and marineland emperor 400 for dirt cheap. Got a nice algae scrubber and some other things thrown into the deal as well.

I decided to take a plunge and get a half descent light because I didn't think I'd be investing much more in it....and then I discovered planted tanks while looking for ideas and fell in love.

Hopefully the ray 2 will be enough light at 17 to 18 inches. Several sources claim the par values would be considered high light, yet others say it isn't. Down the road I'll add to it if necessary I guess. 

I got lucky for once and found an ad on craigslist from a local guy moving out of state who needed to sell his setup. The co2 system was an absolute steal. Only paid 150.00 for both his tanks (80lbs worth), regulator w/ 4 brass bubble counters, solenoids, and needle valves. Came with 4 diffusers, check valves, and of course his co2 tubing. He even threw in his millwakee c122 (or something like that) ph reader and a timer. I'm not using the ph reader though....and still need to buy a drop checker.

Hopefully I get this substrate thing figured out shortly so I can get on with it and start scaping!!!


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

flight50 said:


> You are posting similar questions in your other threads. Give the forum a little time and you can probably get your questions answered. You will difinitely need (2) Ray 2 to have the tank your describing though. One Ray 2 over a 75g will give you poor results I am sure.
> 
> Eco yields poor results with carpeting from what I have read. MG in your case is not a good idea if you plan to rearrange a lot. If your on a budget, it think your best choice is probably Safe-t-sorb. If you will be dosing the heck out of it, the charging of it will be high. It's fairly small in size and very uniform. It is light though but I can see HC growing in it. I use it for my growout and I will probably choose it for my Living Rm display tank when I set it up.
> 
> Unless your topping dirt, I wouldn't bother capping with sand on anything else. Capping flourite/eco really does nothing for they are substrates that can be used alone as is. Eco and flourite are not too expensive imo. That title belongs to Aquasoil. Safe-t-sorb can be bought at Tractor Supply for about 10-13 bucks for a large bag. It should take no more than 1-2 bags of it. I think I used 1.75 worth to give me 3" in my 125g tank.


Sorry for getting a little repetitive in my thread openings. I only have a few now, but every time I think of a new question and can't find a direct answer my first thought is a new thread because I'm varying from the other threads in topic. I will try and watch where I post my questions.

I read the same thing about Eco not being the best choice for carpeting. In my head I thought that the sand topper would really help the carpet spread, but I guess not. Safe-t-sorb sounds like a great buy based on what you said, and others are agreeing with you so it's definitely something I'm considering....I just wish it was darker. 

I really appreciate your input...


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## essabee (Oct 7, 2006)

Left to myself - I would go with a inch of laterite for the bottom layer and a 2 inch pool sand cap. Before applying the substrate, I would sprinkle some gypsum and calcium phosphate over the bottom of the tank. In my experience this does all that you need for any type of planting in your tank.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

One more thing: you mentioned sand. Rather than using actual sand, Flourite has black sand. It's the same stuff as regular Flourite, but really small particles. It's black, and it's sand, and it's got high CEC. For a 75g, the Seachem Flourite website says it'll take 8 bags to do 3 inches, and 11 bags to do 4 inches. Assuming you can get it for about $21 shipped from foster&smith, that's $168 to $231.


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## tuffgong (Apr 13, 2010)

My tanks clears up in about 30 minutes to an hour whenever I replant something.


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

tuffgong said:


> My tanks clears up in about 30 minutes to an hour whenever I replant something.


Hmmm.

I loved the idea of a dirted tank from day 1, but I kept hearing about "problems" if you like to move your plants, and that it's not a substrate for beginners....but an hour to settle is nothing to me.....unless the consequences are more than just cloudy water.

I'm curious about the down side here, because so many hobbyists stay clear of the dirted tank. 

Does the disruption change the water chemistry or have any negative consequences to the fish? 

If you have any advice or tips on a setup I would love to hear them...


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## serenityfate (Jan 29, 2014)

the first time I started my planted tank , I used the dirt technique.. all the plants grew out fine but as time went by (close to a month) I started seeing buildup with anaerobic spots (you can see mounds on the substrate) . and since this tank was in my room , everytime a bubble erupted it smelled like rotten eggs.. 

long story short. just make sure you do it right the first time for dirted tanks , dont hop through the procedures or youll tear down the tank like I did. 

I prefer using ada soil (although its expensive) to plant, its just way easier to mess with. gives a good yr or so before nutrients are gone then you can use root tabs after


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

No reason dirt should not produce food for plant's throughout it's life assuming fishes are being fed and fishes are producing waste.
That food and waste which is not caught in filter's, fall's to the bottom and mixes with substrate ,and is then used by plant's each day that the tank is running.
In addition to the fish food and fish waste,one can add fertilizer's to the substrate and or water column.
With regard's to depth of soil and anaerobic condition's,the plant's transport oxygen to their root's which negates oxygen poor environment that is needed before anaerobic condition's are realized and even then,,the hydrogen sulfide is almost instantly rendered harmless once it makes contact with oxygen in the water.
Must be this way or those running deep sand bed's in marine tank's would report issues with the depth of the sand ,and they don't. 
I do agree that if you are one who constantly or regularly uproot's plant's, that soil based tank's can make a right mess with regard's to water clarity, but with a little forethought,planning, with regard's to plant placement it is largely a non issue or can/should be. 
Research the plant's you intend to use and info can be found as to where in the tank they should be placed, and you won't have to move em as much.
Been running soil based tank's for a few year's now and at depth's of nearly five inches to accommodate large sword plant's or crypt's without issues with fishes/shrimp's.
I mix cat litter ,peat,with the soil and cap it with sand or product such as Black Diamond blasting media.
The cat litter(plain unscented) has good cation exchange capabilitiy (CEC), and the peat does also, while softening my water a bit to suit the tetra's I keep which seem to do better with softer water.
Plenty of folk's run soil based tanks that use plain old top soil or Miracle grow organic choice .
As mentioned,,just need to do a bit of planning so you ain't uprooting plant's weekly which does nothing to help them growth wise and can make unnecessary mess.IMHO


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Are you trying to create an aquascape or are you just putting plants in and want to enjoy the ecology of it all?

If the former is true, and I think it is because you mentioned ‘scaping’ I would stay away from dirt. As you suspected it doesn’t like being disturbed or played with. 

If you’re new to this I would not use ADA Aquasoil (AS) either, although it’s great at what it does and I actually think it’s the “Substrate for Dummies” because it houses pretty much everything the plants need for probably a year or so (In other words, if you don’t dose enough of something the AS should cover your mistakes) but it takes an experienced hand to play around in AS, (Doable but again I think a newbie might get into trouble.) because it contains a lot of ammonia which will cause serious problems if not removed. 

You can carpet pretty much with any substrate as long as you’re dosing the water column. If you want a dark substrate I would definitely recommend Eco-Complete. Although it’s far from ‘complete’ it’s very easy to plant in and much for forgiving when it’s disturbed. If you go into a typical pet store they’ll tell you Flourish Comprehensive is a complete fertilizer. That might be true in a low-tech setup where fish and waste provide NPK, but not in a high tech setup that has good light, co2, etc. You could look at Eco the same way. Not complete for high tech. 

If you want a lighter substrate and want to save money use power-filter sand. About $7 for 50lbs. Good grain-size, tan in color and easy to plant in. Works fine as long as you’re dosing and providing good co2.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Every substrate becomes inert after awhile. I would go with black diamond blasting sand and root tabs. Even if you have to poke a hole in your carpet to replace root tabs every few months, they are not large holes. You only need one every several inches too (in a grid). Doesn't seem like a big deal to me in the long run. You could even poke the O+ tabs themselves through the carpet in a finer pattern. The capsules are only there so the O+ doesn't break down as you place it into the substrate. With a 75g tank, I don't think the minor deterioration of the O+ will be a big deal. I have had no issues with O+ bits resurfacing in my 75g and throwing off parameters. I'm not one for expensive substrates. My swords, crypts and sag have all grown fine in inert substrate with root tabs. I haven't replaced my tabs in 6 months and the growth seems fine. 

As for the light, I think people tend to exaggerate the light needed. With medium light, which the Ray2 should give you no problem, and CO2, which you have, you won't have any issues. You should be able to grow just about anything. The 18" front to back may be a little too much for a single light. If you want a secondary fixture, I suggest a planted+ 24/7. The automatic sunrise/sunset would be nice and it would definitely push you into medium-high lighting. It would help with a more even lighting and give you some more colors than the Ray2. 

Just another opinion.


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

serenityfate said:


> long story short. just make sure you do it right the first time for dirted tanks , dont hop through the procedures or youll tear down the tank like I did.


Can you please elaborate on what you mean by "do it right?"

Bump:


Freemananana said:


> Every substrate becomes inert after awhile. I would go with black diamond blasting sand and root tabs. Even if you have to poke a hole in your carpet to replace root tabs every few months, they are not large holes. You only need one every several inches too (in a grid). Doesn't seem like a big deal to me in the long run. You could even poke the O+ tabs themselves through the carpet in a finer pattern. The capsules are only there so the O+ doesn't break down as you place it into the substrate. With a 75g tank, I don't think the minor deterioration of the O+ will be a big deal. I have had no issues with O+ bits resurfacing in my 75g and throwing off parameters. I'm not one for expensive substrates. My swords, crypts and sag have all grown fine in inert substrate with root tabs. I haven't replaced my tabs in 6 months and the growth seems fine.
> 
> As for the light, I think people tend to exaggerate the light needed. With medium light, which the Ray2 should give you no problem, and CO2, which you have, you won't have any issues. You should be able to grow just about anything. The 18" front to back may be a little too much for a single light. If you want a secondary fixture, I suggest a planted+ 24/7. The automatic sunrise/sunset would be nice and it would definitely push you into medium-high lighting. It would help with a more even lighting and give you some more colors than the Ray2.
> 
> Just another opinion.


It's funny that you mentioned just pushing tabs through the carpet. Maybe you're right and it's not a big deal.

I'm really grateful to be getting so much feedback. It definitely makes me more comfortable in making a good decision because everyone seems to use different methods and they all work fairly well for them...I presume...or they wouldn't be recommending it.

Now, I am going for a nature aquascape. I want hills, and therefore a substrate that is going to work with me on that. I was planning on filling tupperware with gravel as a base to help with that, but I'd like a substrate that will hold it's position as well as possible.

Honestly I've dropped a descent amount of money into this already, so saving some money on substrate that I can spend on more plants and, if necessary, fertilizer would be a huge plus for me.

How does black diamond blasting sand hold up for scaping?

If I were to use MGO, what cap would be best for holding hills?


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> Are you trying to create an aquascape or are you just putting plants in and want to enjoy the ecology of it all?
> 
> If the former is true, and I think it is because you mentioned ‘scaping’ I would stay away from dirt. As you suspected it doesn’t like being disturbed or played with.
> 
> ...


I am trying to aquascape, yes. Mostly rock hardscape. I'm playing with the idea of adding an area of sand, maybe to appear as a path, possibly even to a beach area. Most of the plants I think I'm going to be going with have fairly fine and short roots. Either a monte carlo or DHG carpet, moss of some sort to glue to the rocks, maybe some wisteria and others which do not grow very tall. I've honestly been very neglectful of the plant part, because I wanted to get my lighting, co2, and substrate all figured out first. In hind sight I'm realizing I should have figured out the plant part first. LOL. However in my defense I did know I needed at least a medium high light on DHG, etc so I THINK I took at lease a descent start in lighting on that regard. 

Anyway, if I (hypothetically) were to use short and narrow rooted plants, would you still deter me from using MGO for scaping?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have tried just about everything at this point and they all work. Some are just easier than the next. I have found potting soil and mineralized top soil work well but I use way less than most. I have had a few tanks go anerobic so I use an inch of either most. Capped with black sand or gravel and it works fine. Often, I just did 1/2 inch which didn't give me much of a cloudy result when changing things but I set all my soil tanks up where I wasn't rescaping a lot because it can get bad. The major upside of this is it's really easy to plant, the downside is major if it goes anerobic, for me, that is a tear down.

Flourite and similar has worked fine for me as well. Have had great success and it looks good if you pick a color you like. You will need to fertilize more than soil but in a high tech tank, it likely will end up being about the same anyway. On a low tech, soil may be a bit easier, or less maintenance but this is an easy combo.

My choice now is Aqua Soil. It has most the advantages of all the substrates I like without being a hassle. Mine has never broken down or become problematic and it looks good. It may seem expensive but you get more per bag so the cost isn't that much more than Flourite.

Root tabs may seem cheap and easy but if you buy root tabs, they really will add up over time. Other things like Osmocote or similar are used but then you end up with it your substrate so it's hard to reuse. Flourite can last pretty much forever so adding things to it with whatever DIY root tabs have in them, you may not choose to reuse it. Aqua Soil will eventually break down. 

What is really cheap in the long run is dry ferts and that should really do more than any substrate will, especially in a high tech tank. Well, low tech tanks will benefit to ferts to but it will be less of a routine no matter how you go. 

I am very much into experimenting and saving money but I wouldn't save money and experiment just because you don't want to spend money on something you actually want if you have something in mind because you likely will end up swapping it out later or using what you really wanted to next time when some substrate lasts forever. Lastly, like some said, many substrates are not nutrient rich but have a high CEC so keep that in mind.

A well thought out plan will go further than substarte choices, I have had pretty great tanks with gravel and pretty miserable tanks with Aqua Soil or potting soil.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I use ADA AS because I can scape a lot with it, it is all 100% the same stuff, so when I re slope the tank, the design etc, it does not look tacky and mixed. 
It has a lot of ferts in it. Might as well use both locations for ferts. 

No good reason not too really.

Takes some getting use to, newbies can run into trouble there and with dirt/sand cap mixes. 

Go with sand based on your goals though. 
Later, consider something else.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I value plantbrain's opinion very highly. Tom is a very respected member of the community and has been for a long time.

On the topic of hills, try some light diffuser/egg crate instead of the bowl idea. You can cut it and use it to help with hills. The best thing for a hill is roots though. So maybe try a dry start? That may help. It will get your plants growing a deep root system without washing away the sand. Then the roots hold the hill together. Just a thought. I've never done it myself, but I've read many journals of fellows doing it.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Freemananana said:


> I value plantbrain's opinion very highly. Tom is a very respected member of the community and has been for a long time.
> 
> On the topic of hills, try some light diffuser/egg crate instead of the bowl idea. You can cut it and use it to help with hills. The best thing for a hill is roots though. So maybe try a dry start? That may help. It will get your plants growing a deep root system without washing away the sand. Then the roots hold the hill together. Just a thought. I've never done it myself, but I've read many journals of fellows doing it.


Who's Tom? some random guy?

sorry to derail, carry on...


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

StrungOut said:


> Who's Tom? some random guy?
> 
> sorry to derail, carry on...


He's just a knowledgeable member of the community. I found one of his tanks. _(edit: Not sure if you were jesting!)_

1500 g tank:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

It's not a matter of what plantbrain uses or any other member here. You can grow a lush tank with all of them, but at the same time they all have their +/-. This is about what's good for a person who is new to this. 

I use AS in almost all my setups, but for a newbie it could make things difficult if your not used to it. There are posts after post showing peoples tanks and how they can't clear them up, have massive issues because they stirred up the AS. There's ways around that, but again we're talking a newbie.

If you have proper lighting, co2 any substrate will allow you to grow plants.


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## VikeMan (Oct 13, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> 1500 g tank:


Wow. How did you achieve that wall in the center of the back?
ETA: Just realized that's Tom's.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> It's not a matter of what plantbrain uses or any other member here. You can grow a lush tank with all of them...


This is true. There is a sticky at the top of the page with a quick run down of pros and cons of typical substrates. If you can grow plants in blasting sand (completely inert), you can grow plants in anything. Plants are quite adaptive to their environment.

Plaintbrain has always had good suggestions from my experience with him. That's all my comment was pointing out. If anyone is seeking advice, which the OP was, I would point them to a veteran member of the community. :grin2:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

That's fine, it's all good. 

Point I was making was if someone for example was new to keeping fish and they wanted to make zebra plecos their 1st fish, I still wouldn't recommend them even if he got advise from someone experienced with those fish. When your working with a substrate and are new to it, it's not the same as someone who has experience with it.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I really think that reasoning is why his advice shines. He pointed out a bunch of pros of one, but suggest something else because the OP is a beginner. 

Side note: I hope people give advice with the recipient in mind.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Coming from someone who jumped in the deep end and had a catastrophic anaerobic 75g tank it may not be the best idea to start that big with dirt. Others have had great success. IMO the mess dirt makes is minimal if you are careful and is not really a big issue... A quick siphon during water change gets rid of anything that settles. Like others have mentioned the threat of going anaerobic is your biggest concern with dirt tanks.

For your first tank I would recommend going cheap and easy sand like Mr. Barr suggested. I have black diamond with osmocote pellets mixed in my 75g and it has worked very well for me. Have a nice lawn of hairgrass. The stuff is very heavy and IMO is quite ideal for foreground plants.

IMO there are 3 ways to go with substrate:

ADA AquaSoil
Sand
Dirt capped with sand

All the other stuff really isn't any better than straight up sand IMO. If you want a really good out-of-the-box substrate go with aquasoil. Gonna cost a few hundred bucks to fill that 75 though. If not then don't waste your money on something like eco complete.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

My 75 has 100% blasting sand with osmocote+, going on 2 years now. Ive grown all sorts of carpets and it is great. Easy to plant in, doenst matter how much you disturb it.

Over the past year or so Ive come to realize it really doesnt need very much osmocote+. Just about everything Ive grown does fine with only water column dosing.

Having said that Im on the verge (maybe) of switching to aquasoil, simply because my water is a bit on the hard side and Im wanting to do more soft water species.

But... water parameters aside, for a dark colored sub it doesnt get any better or cheaper than Black Diamond blasting sand, imo.


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

*Going Once, Going Twice, Sold*



plantbrain said:


> I use ADA AS because I can scape a lot with it, it is all 100% the same stuff, so when I re slope the tank, the design etc, it does not look tacky and mixed.
> It has a lot of ferts in it. Might as well use both locations for ferts.
> 
> No good reason not too really.
> ...


I decided to take your quote because it seems to be well respected....and forward! Not judging, but I do find it funny how overly complicated we can make things. I've read thread after thread after thread. Everyone with a different opinion. To be frank, I think it freaks out the new guy....it did me. 

I have tendencies to take my projects to the extreme quickly....and that's not a good thing. In this particular case, I wanted the "perfect substrate." No such thing, although I do think either MTS or Aquasoil will be my next venture. I've been trying to make a decision on substrate for over a week now, worried I would "fail" if I chose wrong.

Someone on this thread posted it best, for me at this time anyway, when the comment was made that aquatic plants are highly adaptive to their substrate....to paraphrase it anyway.

In other words most substrates are going to work for a planted tank, although some more convenient for planting, or minimizing fertilizer additives, etc....but regardless of our substrate choice, if it is mentioned in this forum chances are it CAN create beautiful planted tanks. Please correct me if I am wrong.

But thanks to many of you I'm going to stop over complicating things and just get the D*#N sand. LOL.

I really thought I was going to settle on MGO with a cap of some type...but forget it, although I'm sure if I used just a 1/2 inch and capped it with a few inches of Black Diamond Blasting sand it would be slightly better.

ANYWAY, I'm tired of searching. 

I'm going to go with Black Diamond Blasting sand and dose it with Osmocote Plus.

Couple quick questions and its getting ordered.

1. What grade? Does it matter all that much for carpeting or are they all small enough? I've seen it range from Fine to Course, 4 or 5 grades total.

I was thinking about something simple like this...

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/black-diamond-medium-blasting-abrasives?cm_vc=IOPDP1

2. I imagine no, but is depth an issue in any way with Blasting Sand...or ANYTHING inert? Hypothetically is 4 or 5 inches a problem? I know I would like to sacrifice a little height in the water column in lieu of higher lighting. Just trying to raise the PAR at the substrate level a little...

3. I'll probably need to buy two 50lb bags anyway, but for the purpose of using the substrate calculator below, what substrate is closest to the recommended grade of blasting sand...
Substrate Calculator

4. How much osmocote plus do I need to add?

5. Anything else I should add to the substrate?

6. Most importantly....any tips on rinsing the sand first? I know I need to get as much of the oil out as possible. I've read people adding a touch of Dawn to the bottom of their bucket before they begin....

Thanks much for everyone's help. Believe me when I say I get something out of every single post. You have a great community here....

Time to go check out dry dosing threads.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

20/40 grit black diamond is what I use.
30/60 grit is very fine, and some stem plant's may be a bit difficult to keep rooted IMHO
I sprinkled 1/2 cup of osmocote pellet's on bottom glass all over in 80 gal tank, with same foot print as 75 gal.(little of this goes long way)
I have used the black diamond right out of the bag without rinsing,and have rinsed it as well by placing two or three gallon bucket full of the media in old pillow case at a time, and then ran water through the opening of pillow case till the water ran clear.
Would NOT use soap.
P.S. Would not rinse sand or blasting media in kitchen sink or bath tub, lest the person paying the plumber become overly animated .


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

getzbuzy said:


> 1. What grade?


Medium, 20/40 I believe, it what I use. 



getzbuzy said:


> 2. I imagine no, but is depth an issue in any way with Blasting Sand...?


Nope. I have/had an almost 6" hill in my 75g.



getzbuzy said:


> 3. I'll probably need to buy two 50lb bags anyway, but for the purpose of using the substrate calculator below, what substrate is closest to the recommended grade of blasting sand...
> Substrate Calculator


I think sand would be my suggestion. If this is a 75g, my memory is bad so forgive me, I'd buy 3 bags.



getzbuzy said:


> 4. How much osmocote plus do I need to add?


Very little. Maybe a ball every square inch? I did the sprinkle on glass then add sand method without issue. I can send you some O+ for $1 if you want some. Or you can buy a container at lowes/homedepot for about $10. PM if interested, I'll fill a padded envelope. 



getzbuzy said:


> 5. Anything else I should add to the substrate?


Not in my opinion.



getzbuzy said:


> 6. Most importantly....any tips on rinsing the sand first? I know I need to get as much of the oil out as possible. I've read people adding a touch of Dawn to the bottom of their bucket before they begin....


No soap. Water is best if you want to rinse it at all. The pillow case method is my go to, but can be time consuming. I ran a filter with surface skimming and nothing but floss and just added the sand straight to the tank, no rinsing. That was 6 months ago.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Most newbies want the best for their tanks and to ensure good results, but this does NOT come with the products typically, rather, the aquarist themselves. 

What's the best light?
What's the best plant that grows without light and without CO2 with Oscars? hehe
What's the best sediment?
What's the best CO2 system?

Now while I might have a rimless starfire tank, a stainless steel dual stage regulator, there's many many really awesome tanks without.........any of those things. 

Many just do not have the $$$$ for some of these items, or do not feel they are worth their hard earned $$, some are kids without a source of significant income. Some just cannot get these products in Senegal. 

While there are many ADA fan boys out there, I can certainly afford or justify $$$ stuff, many of their products just have little cost benefit for me, ADA AS is an exception. Rimless tanks also, but I get better stuff made locally, same with cabinets, but plenty of folks DIY tanks, cabinets and sediments also. 

I most certainly have plenty in my day. I'd say more than most folks in the DIY area with planted equipment.


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

Freemananana said:


> Medium, 20/40 I believe, it what I use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thorough response. I went to Black Diamond's website, and the 20/40 is their medium. I have a Tractor Supply close by, so I'm gonna try and run up there in the next day or two. Great advice by you and roadmaster on the pillow case rinse method, but I can definitely see how time consuming that's gonna be. I'm putting 150 lbs in the tank. At 3 pounds per rinse, It's gonna take all freaking day. LOL. I don't have a skimmer, but maybe I'll just have a go at the floss method. Well see I guess. It's gonna take awhile for the tank to cycle and I'm not in a real hurry anyway. I just don't want to see any oil film on the top of the substrate...not unless it goes away fairly quickly. 

I may take you up on your osmocote plus offer. I still need to hit up amazon again for a drop checker and some more co2 tubing anyway, so I may just buy some.....but I appreciate the offer and I'll pm you if I need it.

I'm really glad this thread picked up some momentum and I hope it helps others new to planted tanks as well. Thanks again. :smile2:


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I bought a tub of O+ for whatever reason. I still have like 80% of it. I'm tempted to pick up some extra large gel capsules and make some root tabs.


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## co2art (May 28, 2014)

One day, you will try aquasoil. You'll be like, why didn't I try this earlier?!!


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

co2art said:


> One day, you will try aquasoil. You'll be like, why didn't I try this earlier?!!


 Would be glad to try it if you'll foot the bill, and send me enough to do my 80 gal soil based tank.:laugh2:
Up till recently aquasoil,,was hard stuff to find in U.S.
I do like it's texture and nutrient benefit's.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

co2art said:


> One day, you will try aquasoil. You'll be like, why didn't I try this earlier?!!


I agree, I started off with Eco Complete and then moved to Aquasoil and have been using it since, but for a newbie it can be difficult. To an experienced person it's not that difficult to work with, but to someone new it could cause a lot of water issues. 

Eco Complete to me is a great beginner substrate. It requires no rinsing, easy to plant in, looks good and as long as you dose and provide co2 you'll grow plants great.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

co2art said:


> One day, you will try aquasoil. You'll be like, why didn't I try this earlier?!!


I have to agree. It took me 9 years into planted tanks before I finally tried it and I'm like why didn't I do this years ago. Maybe I've just improved in keeping a planted tank over the years or maybe it's just the particular foreground plant, but I've never had a healthier, easier growing foreground.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

> One day, you will try aquasoil. You'll be like, why didn't I try this earlier?!!



That was actually my reaction when I planted in Black Diamond for the first time. I had only planted stuff in a 24" deep tank with flourite. When you slip the plants into the BD they actually stay!


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

Kubla said:


> That was actually my reaction when I planted in Black Diamond for the first time. I had only planted stuff in a 24" deep tank with flourite. When you slip the plants into the BD they actually stay!


GREAT to hear....err...read. 

Bump:


houseofcards said:


> I agree, I started off with Eco Complete and then moved to Aquasoil and have been using it since, but for a newbie it can be difficult. To an experienced person it's not that difficult to work with, but to someone new it could cause a lot of water issues.
> 
> Eco Complete to me is a great beginner substrate. It requires no rinsing, easy to plant in, looks good and as long as you dose and provide co2 you'll grow plants great.


I read that Aquasoil can be difficult to work with for someone new pretty often here in plantedtank. Unfortunately, the posts I 've seen never seem to include any rationale for that.

It would be useful to know. Would you mind elaborating on it's difficulties?


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## getzbuzy (Oct 10, 2015)

roadmaster said:


> Would be glad to try it if y ou'll foot the bill, and send me enough to do my 80 gal soil based tank.:laugh2:
> Up till recently aquasoil,,was hard stuff to find in U.S.
> I do like it's texture and nutrient benefit's.


I'm with you there. Thought buying my buddy's 75 gallon with all his goodies for 140.00 was a pretty descent deal and would stop there.

3 weeks later and I have over 500.00 invested between the 150.00 light, the 150.00 co2 system (which was a STEAL....got a 20lb and 60lb tank, UL dual stage regulator, 2 berkert solenoids running 4 lines all hooked up with brass bubble counters and check valves.) 

I wanted to go dirt honestly, but was kinda psyched when Black Diamond was recommended for me as I'm new to the hobby. It's dirt cheap and looks good. 

Just hoping I can stock up on plants all right here for cheap. Still need to get my roseline sharks too. 

Ehhhh, this BETTER BE WORTH IT!!!!! LOL.


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