# Is "Dry Start" for wimps?



## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

I kind of asked this on my FB page....

http://www.facebook.com/projectAquarium

...but it might be interesting here as well.

Personally, I think it is :icon_mrgr

jB


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I'll reply on both.

Is co2 cheating? 

What about hair dryers? :hihi:


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## ElBoltonero (Jan 18, 2012)

So there's manly ways to grow aquarium plants now? Are you trying to feel some sense of superiority? I fail to see the point of this, unless you're just putting something inflammatory up to drive traffic to your Facebook Page. 

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I doubt Jason is doing that. This could be an interesting topic.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

What if you want to grow UG or HC in a shallow tank that's got a lot of water flow from a filter? Or if you have super-active shrimp or snails that could uproot delicate plants unless they've developed strong roots?

A dry start is usually the only way to go in those situations.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

antbug said:


> I'll reply on both.
> 
> Is co2 cheating?
> 
> What about hair dryers? :hihi:


Well, i didnt intend to get parallel responses...

I think you can achieve the same results with dry and regular start but you cant achieve the same result with or without CO2.

Hair dryer is effect. For wimps? Depends how you use it! HAHA!!



ElBoltonero said:


> So there's manly ways to grow aquarium plants now? Are you trying to feel some sense of superiority? I fail to see the point of this, unless you're just putting something inflammatory up to drive traffic to your Facebook Page.




jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

somewhatshocked said:


> What if you want to grow UG or HC in a shallow tank that's got a lot of water flow from a filter? Or if you have super-active shrimp or snails that could uproot delicate plants unless they've developed strong roots?
> 
> A dry start is usually the only way to go in those situations.


Point for Dry Start!!

jB


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Are filters for wimps? Real aquarium keepers have their slaves bring fresh water every day from the local lake or stream like the Romans did.


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## vincenz (Jan 29, 2012)

TexasCichlid said:


> Are filters for wimps? Real aquarium keepers have their slaves bring fresh water every day from the local lake or stream like the Romans did.


roud:


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

LOL ok which takes longer? Drystarting or submerged??


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

kribkeeper888 said:


> LOL ok which takes longer? Drystarting or submerged??


Yeah, based on that, i wonder if that submerged are the real wimps!

jB


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

If it grows, it grows IMO 

I'll use whatever I can to get an edge on my projects.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

TexasCichlid said:


> Are filters for wimps? Real aquarium keepers have their slaves bring fresh water every day from the local lake or stream like the Romans did.


Hardly a valid similarity but funny none the less.

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

EntoCraig said:


> If it grows, it grows IMO
> 
> I'll use whatever I can to get an edge on my projects.


What edge do you get in addition to the reasons somewhatshocked stated?

jB


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Jason Baliban said:


> Hair dryer is effect. For wimps? Depends how you use it! HAHA!!
> jB


What about taking out furniture pieces like pipes/heaters for a clean tank look before a photo shoot? For wimps?


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## ElBoltonero (Jan 18, 2012)

Inflammatory subject with no reasoning behind it.



OMG I CAN USE EMOTICONS TOO!


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> What about taking out furniture pieces like pipes/heaters for a clean tank look before a photo shoot? For wimps?


How would you achieve the same look with leaving them in?

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ElBoltonero said:


> Inflammatory subject with no reasoning behind it.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG I CAN USE EMOTICONS TOO!


Calm you jets, fella.

jB


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Jason Baliban said:


> How would you achieve the same look with leaving them in?
> 
> jB


You can leave them in and not be a wimp? :tongue:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Points in favor of the DSM:

1. Less algae
2. FAR fewer/no water changes
3. Tank is precycled
4. Roots are established/no resource allocation required
5. Much less labor
6. You can start with fewer plants since they will grow in/less cost
7. Commercial production is also done this way

There's likely few more. 

Rather than it is "for wimps ?", a better question:
Is DSM not a better method, simpler, reducing the work/labor required to have a nice filled in aquarium?
The initial start of the tank and the next 1-2 months are the hardest.
You can be "a wimp" or you can just do something that's common sense intelligent.
Maybe rephasing the question: are we dumb for not having done the DSM a long time ago?

If I catch my squirrel by hand, lose a finger or two.......and eat eat raw vs using a bow and arrow and grilling it, I'm wimp? 
"Using your brain= wimp?" Is this what you are arguing in favor of Jason?
This is not clear. 

Sounds like it though. 

There are many cases where the DSM is not appropriate. 
Might be wiser to go after those points and support them versus the wimp approach without support.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> 1. Less algae
> 2. FAR fewer/no water changes
> 3. Tank is precycled
> 4. Roots are established/no resource allocation required
> ...


It's sort of a light hearted thread here, so for those of you that are taking the word wimp as an insult...

Anyway, those are some good points as well, Tom. I think i would have to disagree strongly with your 5th point.

Also, why would you want to start with less plants?

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> You can leave them in and not be a wimp? :tongue:


Of course!! But i think most of us would agree the final result would not be as great as if you did

jB


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Jason Baliban said:


> What edge do you get in addition to the reasons somewhatshocked stated?
> 
> jB


I find I get better growth. It also helps with algae or bacteria booms. Once the plants have rooted and have an edge, they out compete the algae and bacteria for food.

I also find it can be a little easier to scape initially because you aren't up to your armpit in water, and plants will stay put and root instead of get blown around by filters, etc.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

EntoCraig said:


> I also find it can be a little easier to scape initially because you aren't up to your armpit in water, and plants will stay put and root instead of get blown around by filters, etc.


Do you normally fill your tank before you plant, in other situations?

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> "Using your brain= wimp?" Is this what you are arguing in favor of Jason?


This is a little silly.

jB


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Jason Baliban said:


> Of course!! But i think most of us would agree the final result would not be as great as if you did
> 
> jB


That's what lily glass are for. I agreed that it would mess up the final result. I haven't done DSM, so no commnent there.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> That's what lily glass are for.


HAHA! Point, ShortFin!!

jB


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Electric lights are for whimps.

Real men illuminate their tanks with whale oil lamps.


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

Seems like the thread is pretty light hearted, especially when anyone disagrees eh? A silly question provoking "silly" answers? Shocking, really.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

People come over and look as my "storage tank" with HC, DHG and S. repens. I'm a nice guy so I always give them whatever they ask for. 

So far 5 out of 5 came back and said they gave up on the HC because they couldn't get it to stay down. I clearly told them to run the tank without filling for a week or two to let the roots take. All I takes is a bit of patience.

It's not being weak. It's being smart. Try growing moss where you want it without tying it on. Is it weak to tie things down with cotton thread?

DSM is just another method to get'er done. Tom already listed all the pros. Can't think of any cons.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

TexasCichlid said:


> Seems like the thread is pretty light hearted, especially when anyone disagrees eh? A silly question provoking "silly" answers? Shocking, really.


Who is disagreeing? Who is everyone?

jB


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Jason Baliban said:


> Do you normally fill your tank before you plant, in other situations?
> 
> jB


Not normally, unless its a stem tank with tall stems. I have worked on tanks that were pre-filled, or added plants to a tank that needed some green. Not to mention tanks that are setup with fish already but need some plants switched out, etc.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

Jason Baliban said:


> Also, why would you want to start with less plants?
> 
> jB


Because its cheaper. 

I agree with the fifth statement. Not much to DSM, just plant and add water every once in a while.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

hydrophyte said:


> Electric lights are for whimps.
> 
> Real men illuminate their tanks with whale oil lamps.


Stop it!

That is worse then the romans water carrying! HAHA

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Couesfanatic said:


> Because its cheaper.
> 
> I agree with the fifth statement. Not much to DSM, just plant and add water every once in a while.


Cheaper, but harder to pull off. Usually expensive in labour and time trying to battle algae and whatnot.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

EntoCraig said:


> Not normally, unless its a stem tank with tall stems. I have worked on tanks that were pre-filled, or added plants to a tank that needed some green. Not to mention tanks that are setup with fish already but need some plants switched out, etc.


Got ya. 

I guess in my case, i dont have grow out tanks or holding tanks. I plant, trim, shoot. Whether that is over 5 months or 5 years depends but i very rarely plant anything after the initial planting.

jB


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## wGEric (Aug 31, 2011)

jcgd said:


> Cheaper, but harder to pull off. Usually expensive in labour and time trying to battle algae and whatnot.


You can start with less plants if you are doing a dry start.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> Can't think of any cons.


What about from a visual perspective?

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

What do you mean?


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

wGEric said:


> You can start with less plants if you are doing a dry start.


I shouldnt have to say, you can start with less plants with water as well with light and nutrient management.

Is that harder than doing it dry? For some?

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> What do you mean?


Like would you want a tank in your living room or a clients office with saran wrap and no water or fish?

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Well I couldn't care less. I mean, I had my tank empty for year in my living room. Now it's full with wood soaking in it. I take my time and do what I wanna do. 

For a client it's a whole other story. I would explain the benefits of both and see what they were down with. It's just a method, you don't have to do it. I just find it a little easier.

Plus I'd use clear acrylic or glass instead of saran. I'd at least try to make it look nice. One thread in the journals was fully planted with a dry start. That tank was pretty darn beautiful even without water.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> Well I couldn't care less. I mean, I had my tank empty for year in my living room. Now it's full with wood soaking in it. I take my time and do what I wanna do.


If you are married, you must have an understanding partner. 

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Not quite married, but if I was I'd now be divorced. I'm 24, and if it's acceptable to have a keg in the living room and foot prints on the ceiling, the tank is nothin'!


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> Not quite married, but if I was I'd now be divorced. I'm 24, and if it's acceptable to have a keg in the living room and foot prints on the ceiling, the tank is nothin'!


Cheers to that! 

*ENVY*

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Hah. Now if I had your place I might have a different view, but I think I could deal with a week or two of dry start. Just enough to get rooted. 

Aha! Now I thought of a con. Dy starts can take longer to fill in. Pugman's 180p is a perfect example. He gave it a couple weeks to root and was having trouble with the transition from the sand to elevated areas. Two cons now... 

So he filled it and had the tank looking great in no time. But filling right away can be challenging for some people. 

So slower growth -1
Difficulties balancing the water/ moisture between flat and elevated areas. -1


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Jason Baliban said:


> It's sort of a light hearted thread here, so for those of you that are taking the word wimp as an insult...
> 
> Anyway, those are some good points as well, Tom. I think i would have to disagree strongly with your 5th point.
> 
> ...


Since it is light hearted.........

Why did you chose only ferns/mosses/easy low light plants for your 180?
Why do you only have just one tank instead being a tough guy with 20?
Is using Excel being a wimp?

Same reasons. I'm sure you can justify your reasons/ your rational. 


How precisely is not doing anything for 8 weeks not less labor? 
I plant 10 plugs vs 100 because the plants grow in over the 8 week time.
If I do a new tank and fill with water, I'll need to clean the glass, filters, do water changes, hence more labor.

If I do the DSM, I do nothing.
I watch plants grow, nothing more.

Some trade offs:

1. DSM does not save anyone from poor CO2 use/care once the tank is filled. It will give you a better start/more stability 
2. It may not be acceptable for emergent vs submersed forms of various carpeting species(one of my personal gripes)
3. It may no work with strong slopes, but I've seen some pretty cool moss on rock scapes done recently using a 1-2 week DSM and misting. Tying the moss to such rocks would be nearly impossible and extremely labor intensive
4. A Few species are obligate submersed species, but these tend to be very weedy species and maybe added after filling.
5. Fish might need to be added right away
6. A well cycled tank and filter media will adapt and adjust well if the scape is redone. 

I have used the DSM for rock and wood in plastic bins outside to grow Fissidens etc, works quite well.

There are many things we could suggest are cheating, but the trade offs are the focus and the users goal. 

I'm still amazed at the pictures of tanks I have seen from the 1940-1950's without any CO2 that where well scaped and full of nicely arranged plants.
You can do it, it just takes 10-20X longer and some choices cannot be mixed really well.

I can hand plow the field, or I can have a tractor plow. I'm a wimp. 








About 25 years ago when Dupla fan boys ran rampant.....CO2 got a huge boost and many had some rather intense debates as to whether it was cheating and being "a wimp". I was a non CO2 person at the time.

The DSM is particularly effective for the non cO2 method also.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> Aha! Now I thought of a con. Dy starts can take longer to fill in. Pugman's 180p is a perfect example. He gave it a couple weeks to root and was having trouble with the transition from the sand to elevated areas. Two cons now...
> 
> So he filled it and had the tank looking great in no time. But filling right away can be challenging for some people.
> 
> ...


Important point, size of the tank. Oh, and topography.

jB


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jcgd said:


> Hah. Now if I had your place I might have a different view, but I think I could deal with a week or two of dry start. Just enough to get rooted.
> 
> Aha! Now I thought of a con. Dy starts can take longer to fill in. Pugman's 180p is a perfect example. He gave it a couple weeks to root and was having trouble with the transition from the sand to elevated areas. Two cons now...
> 
> ...


Pre soaking fixes that, you fill the tank for a day, then drain and plant, this water logs the soil/clay......... then you mist/water daily, just like you might for Bonsai mame. After 2 week or so, the roots are not as touchy, you can reduce this. 

Plenty of tricks around some of these issues.
While I suggested DSM, I do not use it much myself.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Since it is light hearted.........
> 
> Why did you chose only ferns/mosses/easy low light plants for your 180?
> Why do you only have just one tank instead being a tough guy with 20?
> Is using Excel being a wimp?


Lightheartedly... 

Because i dont have long enough arms to maintain high maintenance plants in a 30" high tank and i dont have a tom barr swim in my aquarium approach 

When i had time, i had up to 4 layouts at once. If i worked in the field for a living i would have more, but i am now married with children and have never had a job that offered me time to tinker with aquariums while working. Oh and 20 tanks doesnt make you tough it just makes your house smell. 

Yes, using excel other than for occasional spot treatment is for wimps! HAHA Unless it is your ONLY source of CO2.

jB


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Jason Baliban said:


> Got ya.
> 
> I guess in my case, i dont have grow out tanks or holding tanks. I plant, trim, shoot. Whether that is over 5 months or 5 years depends but i very rarely plant anything after the initial planting.
> 
> jB


I have 'restless tank syndrome' ... The doctors call it A.D.D.

To say the least I change most of my mail display tanks about once a year. But these new pills they gave me are helping do that much less.... :hihi:

I have about 30 tanks in the basement, and many are grow outs, breeding, holding tanks, etc. Many are also not aquatic tanks, but full of emmersed plant and other tropicals.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> Because i dont have long enough arms to maintain high maintenance plants in a 30" high tank and i dont have a tom barr swim in my aquarium approach
> 
> When i had time, i had up to 4 layouts at once. If i worked in the field for a living i would have more, but i am now married with children and have never had a job that offered me time to tinker with aquariums while working. Oh and 20 tanks doesnt make you tough it just makes your house smell.
> 
> ...


See, this is why I find it hard to imagine you're are against dry starts. You totally took the easy way out with your 180. I'm not saying it's not a gorgeous tank, in fact it's my favourite style - plants included, but it's full of slower growing, moderately hearty plants that suite your lifestyle. While I can't imagine you taking the time to do a dry start I would think you would support it like Tom does... just because it's easy. It's quick and dirty and gets the job done. As far as being easy for beginners, DWM fits the bill. 

I like excel too... it has it's place.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Some trade offs:
> 
> 1. DSM does not save anyone from poor CO2 use/care once the tank is filled. It will give you a better start/more stability
> 2. It may not be acceptable for emergent vs submersed forms of various carpeting species(one of my personal gripes)
> ...


All important points. Especially #1

jB


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## Jeromeit (Sep 30, 2011)

lol well i dry started my 72 gallon tank.. gave me time to source plants and grow plants.. had to constantly fill my humidifier with water and clean it.. had to continuously siphon old water out of my substrate.. and had to wait quite a while to get to where I want it... then you have the fill issue where you need to balance the tank while trying to make sure you wont kill all of the sensitive plants =P.. I think dry start is best for those who are patient.. and patience is definitely what you need in this hobby. 

I would gladly do another dry start tank and stand by the process... =]
Also, it gave me time to choose the best equipment for my setup..

Best,
Jerome


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I have yet to try it, but if it works, great. What I find so ironic is how much importance people used to, and often still do, in buying plants like HC submersed instead of emersed...convinced that emersed plants are of poorer quality, and take too long to adapt... and then they do a DRY START! 

Great to hear from you Jason. Keeping it lively and entertaining! roud:


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> See, this is why I find it hard to imagine you're are against dry starts. You totally took the easy way out with your 180. I'm not saying it's not a gorgeous tank, in fact it's my favourite style - plants included, but it's full of slower growing, moderately hearty plants that suite your lifestyle. While I can't imagine you taking the time to do a dry start I would think you would support it like Tom does... just because it's easy. It's quick and dirty and gets the job done. As far as being easy for beginners, DWM fits the bill.
> 
> I like excel too... it has it's place.


I am not against dry starts, i just think it has the potential for wimpness. HAHA I love excel, and if i am using it because i cant balance a tank i am using it like a wimp. HAHA

Probly a poor example... in sports there are items that people use to make up for their lack of skill. In the professional arena, a lot of these items are not even legal. Those items are for wimps. HAHA

I am not against these items....i use them all the time in my life. 

My stand point on dry start is that i can achieve the same results with a "regular" start and those that know how to balance their light and nutrients also can. Learning this is harder than a dry start, but once you learn it, its easier to just fill and start your water changes like you always do. 

Are there exceptions to this, OF COURSE. Many were brought up here. 

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> You totally took the easy way out with your 180.


I am not offended by this statement, at all. I know how to do it the hard way as well! HAHA

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Yeah, I'd say you've got planted tanks down pretty well. I'm totally jealous of your skills.

I agree with your last post there. I just assumed you were against dry starts. I say use em if you like em. Just like whatever else.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

jcgd said:


> Yeah, I'd say you've got planted tanks down pretty well. I'm totally jealous of your skills.
> 
> I agree with your last post there. I just assumed you were against dry starts. I say use em if you like em. Just like whatever else.


Absolutely! 

I used to say Aquasoil was for wimps. I actually still say it. That being said, it is all i use. Why do i say it? because there are wimps that cant grow plants unless they use AS, because they never took the time to learn how.

Anyway its all light hearted really. I am just trying to have fun, i havent in a long while on these forums. And most everyone knows i am not a plant or nutrient guy as much as i am a layout guy, anyway. Ive never collected plants just to collect them, i just use them to create layouts.

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Robert H said:


> I have yet to try it, but if it works, great. What I find so ironic is how much importance people used to, and often still do, in buying plants like HC submersed instead of emersed...convinced that emersed plants are of poorer quality, and take too long to adapt... and then they do a DRY START!
> 
> Great to hear from you Jason. Keeping it lively and entertaining! roud:


roud:

Robert actually did grow plants with an oil lamp! HAHA

jB


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

> Jason Baliban said:
> 
> 
> > I am not against dry starts, i just think it has the potential for wimpness. HAHA I love excel, and if i am using it because i cant balance a tank i am using it like a wimp. HAHA
> ...


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I think dry-start allows you to achieve things that normally are near impossible. 

I tried to plant HC on an extreme slope and it was just not possible, the slope degrades too much. 

With a dry start I was able to simply sprinkle HC trimmings onto the substrate and keep it very moist - it took root and then the slope was locked in place after about a month. 

Planting the HC would have ruined it, so would have water current, I think. 

I have seen so many HC carpets fail when started submersed, my hc carpet is going through hell right now but because I built a healthy root base it is not succumbing to algae. 

I think, maybe Dry Start is "wimpy," if wimpy means that it is often superior but I think it is similar to exercise. 

You can get results fast, slow, and anything in between. 
You can get fast results with no side effects, or lots of side effects. 
You can get your results slowly with no side effects or lots of side effects. 
But what it boils down to is using the right methodology for your purpose. 

Is it wimpy for a body builder to use protein shakes? 
Is it wimpy for a long distance runner to do squats or sprints? 
etc etc. 

Dry start takes longer to get the results needed to make it worth it, (a 1 week dry start is hardly worth it IMO) but in the end you usually have a superior base to work with that will make everything in the future easier.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

youjettisonme said:


> > If you can't do CO2, and you keep plants that demand CO2 or else they'd melt, are you still a wimp for using Excel? Seems like you're just not wasting your money on plants.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Chlorophile said:


> I think, maybe Dry Start is "wimpy," if wimpy means that it is often superior but I think it is similar to exercise.


I was with you until you said this. HAHA How "Often" do you have to build extreme slopes?

I think extreme dedication to any craft is NOT wimpy, unfortunately that makes up a very small percentage.

Either way, i think you bring up some important examples of what dry start has brought to the table. And i appreciate that some layout guys are getting in on this

jB


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

I don't believe anything makes you a wimp in a hobby. If you find a better way that suits your need then by all means do it.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

What about blasting Co2 way up high with all Flora and no Fauna? Is it the same as dry start? Must be wimpy then.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

radioman said:


> I don't believe anything makes you a wimp in a hobby. If you find a better way that suits your need then by all means do it.


Doing things only as a hobby = wimpy!! HAHAHAHA

You gotta do it like its your job!!

Im joking obviously, but there is something to be discussed. At what point does hobby become passion > obsession > profession? What skill set do you need to cross that line? Where are some of the best layout guys in the world on this scale? 

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> What about blasting Co2 way up high with all Flora and no Fauna? Is it the same as dry start? Must be wimpy then.


Wimpy

jB


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I do like that somehow we are actually taking stances - excel isn't wimpy, co2 isn't wimpy, etc, etc. 

No matter what this is all a matter of opinion, wimpy is a declaration made on something and it can only be declared from your point of view. 
Body builders thing runners are wimpy for not being able to lift, runners think body builders are wimpy for not being able to run, etc. 



But if we are actually going to decide what is wimpy and what isn't I'll cast my votes.

I'll also clarify that I think "Wimpy" basically means easy, and its debatable that if we are referring to methodology, wimpy might also indicate a method of equal difficulty but superior results, thus "taking the easy way out" 

Excel is wimpy!
if used as co2 replacement.
You can grow beautiful plants without co2, without excel. 
So what do we need it for at all? 
If you want faster growth, get co2. 
If you wan't less algae, use it as an algaecide or use co2 or use less light. 
It is wimpy to do something so simple that makes things grow faster and easier.

Aquasoil is wimpy!
If you wan't to do it the real way, mineralise RO water to your correct PH KH and GH, use inert sand, and dose ferts every day!

Ferts are wimpy!
Just use aquasoil and root tabs for P and K!


Co2 Is NOT wimpy!
It is complicated, you have to buy parts, assemble them, dial them in, and you risk DESTROYING all your fishes lives!


I kid I kid!

Dry start is a valuable method, needed in many situations and is a direct counter to some other methodologies which to me is very interesting. 

The ADA method would have you flood your tank immediately and use loads of powders and liquids to keep your tank healthy. 

Summary: $$$$$ 

Dry start on the other hand..
It is cheaper because I can use less carpeting plants. This is important to those who aren't professionals, or don't have high budgets or other tanks with plants to take from.
Your growth is superior after the flood. 
Many plants like HC have different rooting structure when emergent. 
for instance, HC will NEVER make a single fibrous root submersed, however its roots will split at the tips when it is ready to flower if grown emergent, and its roots are in general, much much shorter when grown submersed. 
That and all the reasons Tom Barr posted, algae, no co2 needed, soil bacteria, etc.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Chlorophile said:


> No matter what this is all a matter of opinion


Absolutely!!

And to make it even more unclear, its a scale. For example, 

If a person is ONLY a hobbyist who JUST wants to enjoy their aquarium and they use dry start because its easiest (if it is), they are not wimpy.

Basically, the formula is this...

n = notoriety
s = skill
y = years of experience
p = post count
r = respect
w = personal website hits
a = number of aquascapes
g = goals

3(n+2) x s(y-p) + (r/w) + a(g+3) = wimpyness

The lower the number, the wimpyer you are!

Clear?

jB


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

Haha. I like that.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Well, you have your opinions, no doubt. And so far, I agree with very few of them. 



Jason Baliban said:


> youjettisonme said:
> 
> 
> > Firstly, i specifically said using excel as your only source of co2 is NOT wimpy.
> ...


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

youjettisonme said:


> Well, you have your opinions, no doubt. And so far, I agree with very few of them.
> 
> well instead of being all mysterious about it. list them out for discussion.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Jason Baliban said:


> youjettisonme said:
> 
> 
> > Well, you have your opinions, no doubt. And so far, I agree with very few of them.
> ...


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

only got to page two, but here is my view!

FISHTANKS ARE FOR WIMPS!!! real aquarists build their house under water in the middle of the amazon roud:


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

youjettisonme said:


> Well, you have your opinions, no doubt. And so far, I agree with very few of them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
Something funny to loosen the tension in this thread.


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

double post


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## nnarth212 (May 10, 2012)

*Starting out...*

HI fellas--
Reading this with interest because it seems that DSM is a great way to slowly ease into the planted aquarium hobby. However I believe this may be a mistake because I am not finding a DSM guide for the aquatic planting beginner. Is the reason for this that it is NOT for beginners?

I see some requirements: a rich substrate (aquasoil amazonia) and saturate the substrate with regular water, cover, light 8+ hours a day; misting with clean water.

Is HC the only option or what limits are there on plant selection?

Plants that are not at the lowest point would not reach the water easily... so no plants on the higher points of the tank....?

Am I missing the 'comprehensive' beginners guide? There's so much good information here-- thank you to everyone of you-- I can see this is a rich community. I look forward to sharing my 12G cube... as soon as I get some water in it.

Suggestions and PM welcome.

Thanks!


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## Michiba54 (Nov 24, 2011)

Jason my next party I'd like you to come be the host an help set the tone.

That being said: I donno jack crap about DSM an i'll probably never do one but its nice to have options. DSM Journals can be kind of fun to look at... an one time I was reading one with much anticipation only to find the poor guys grass floated to the top after flooding.

Was like an old person falling... funny as hell but I felt really bad for laughing.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Jason Baliban said:


> Absolutely!!
> 
> And to make it even more unclear, its a scale. For example,
> 
> ...


Wow, now thats 10 minutes of my life I will never get back trying to figure out just how wimpy I really am. Without my years of experience and my post count I might be in the negative numbers of wimpyness. Very funny nonetheless and glad to see people not taking this so serious. And using internet forums for information= SUPER WIMPY (especially a certain social networking site)


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## Calmia22 (Aug 20, 2011)

I personally would never go with a dry start, but that is just me. There are other ways to keep moss and hc tied down to things while roots develop, and that doesn't include string or glue you just have to be creative. 

Does dry starting make you wimpy? No. It's all in personal preference.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I actually think the growth rates are tad faster if you are good growing some species for foreground plants in submersed conditions, but this is deceptive:

1) comparing emergent growth to submersed growth is not comparative visually.
2) dry weights are likely higher in the DSM.
3) root establishment may be better/higher with DSM vs Submersed
4) very little/No uprooting occurs in the DSM

There is no mineralization required for the DSM, it's going to happen if you use soil or ADA etc, any clay based loam brand name or DIY. This aids/adds a lot of bacteria that is beneficial to the start up phase. Then the sediment is not sterile, it is now an integrated living part of the aquarium once you fill the tank. 

Folks with brown thumbs cannot grow a terrarium will try this and other methods and fail regardless, the % of success and "does it help overall compared to other methods?" is the real question. 

It can go either way, but the method does not fail, people do.
If you think it does not, I submit the following: every method to grow plants has folks on this web site and other web sites that have failed dramatically.
Each method also has folks that have succeed very well also.

This is not a Science issue, this is a Social human issue. 

Calmia22 has their own preference and habits, Jason does, I do, we often go with those and really do not give the other methods a good chance and see if we learn something more. 

Try the glue, try the cotton string, try the DSM, try hair nets, try chopping moss up and spraying on rocks, etc. If you can master each of those methods, you are much better able to evaluate and advise folks not based on your own personal goals, rather, what is the best for them/their goals.
One trick ponies?

Hard to say much about something you have never bothered to even try would you not say so? At least common sense would dictate.........So who among you has actually done each of these methods?

Who is willing to at least try rather than talk? Then you will know.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> I actually think the growth rates are tad faster if you are good growing some species for foreground plants in submersed conditions, but this is deceptive:
> 
> 1) comparing emergent growth to submersed growth is not comparative visually.
> 2) dry weights are likely higher in the DSM.
> ...


Completely agree.
Especially #3.
As I said earlier HC has horrible submersed root structure, no branching, at most 3 inches long. Horrible.
At the very least if you intend for longevity in your scale a dry start can give your carpeting plant the root structure needed for that.

Obviously hair grass needs no help, nor do many other plants.
I wouldn't dry start hair grass unless I had other things occupying my time but for the same reason I wouldn't try to start an hc carpet submersed because of the predictable and routine disasters and challenges that come with it that take so much of your time.


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## salmon (Apr 14, 2011)

Jason Baliban said:


> I think you can achieve the same results with dry and regular start but you cant achieve the same result with or without CO2.
> 
> jB


first, interesting topic jB roud:. second the above statement, if the same results can be achieved either method, how does one differ from the other in terms of being easier, or "wimpy" (i take the word wimpy very lightly as should others)

a point id consider for DSM, as most aquatic plants are cultivated emersed on a mass scale, so if you were to get a bunch of plants directly from the nursery, without them being "hardened" submerged prior to sale, they would benefit greatly from a DSM as the roots can take hold and continue growing as they were...without trying to transition to submerged conditons, one less thing to stress them. im no plant pro by any means, actually quite far from it, but this has been my own consensus on doing so with my recent set-up, have yet to loose a single plant. now on the other hand, i threw some of the same leftover plants and such from that build directly into my 13g (w CO2) and experienced zero loss as well...so that kind of scraps my theory. also in my case, I did so on my current DSM mainly because I ran into last minute trouble getting my CO2 tank filled, so I didn't really have a choice...another plus for DSM, atmospheric CO2 ie free!

another point, already mentioned, is having plants take root on steep slopes and holding that slope once its filled, big plus if you've ever lost a nice slope before.

also DSM lets you easily (more so then submerged) change hardscape, move plants, tweak things to your liking etc. 

again it all comes down to everyones own opinions and personal preference/experiences as there are so many variables in this hobby, to each his own.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

I found it fun.

To me the most interesting aspect was how the approach is actually changing the look of aquascapes as its "advantages" are being discovered.

I think we have also uncovered that there are people who use it in a way that is not wimpy, and in fact more studly than regular start.

I think we have also uncovered that there are people using it because they are too wimpy to get results without it.

Chlorophile - Do you have an example of these extreme slopes you have done personally, aside from the Mini M you have linked? I would like to see just how extreme you can get.

youjettisonme - If you are ready to jump back in... Do you have any thoughts on the long term results with a dry start for advanced things like moss on rock and wood?

Of course then there is the question of "natural," which is a slippery slope. Aquascaping in general is moving from the "natural" approach. I have judged too many competitions in the last 4 years and have seen it definitively....most layouts are inspired by actual landscapes, and from the picture youjettisonme offered, i think we see a nice window into how they are doing it. Is this "natural?" Does it even really matter? Is amano's style becoming "old" like dutch? (ah, maybe that will be my next "inflammatory thread to drive traffic to your Facebook Page")

jB


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I think Jason will try a dry start before this thread dies. We will make you "wippy", just wait!


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

antbug said:


> I think Jason will try a dry start before this thread dies. We will make you "wippy", just wait!


HAHA!! I have been feeling wimpy recently!

Some of the layout advantages are interesting to me for sure! It may happen. 

For something as simple as a lawn of HC, probly not. 

jB


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Oh and if anyone has gotten weeping moss to stick during dry start then i may never start with water again!!

jB


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Ouch. I think that was a direct hit. It's ok. I won't be using hair dryers anytime soon. I have a filter on my tank for the ripple effect :hihi:


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

antbug said:


> Ouch. I think that was a direct hit. It's ok. I won't be using hair dryers anytime soon. I have a filter on my tank for the ripple effect :hihi:


Nonsense, its all in good fun.

People love to hate on the hair dryer! 

antbug - Anti hair dryer pimp club member #1

jB


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## antbug (May 28, 2010)

It is all fun. Honestly, the ripple effect looks awesome and as a photog I appreciate these tricks, but it's very unnatural looking. Especially when you have two or three sources for the ripple. Have you ever tried to simulate rain drops? That would look amazing if done right.

Jason Baliban - Hair dryer pimp #2 (sorry Amano is #1) :hihi:


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Totally agree....only one source of ripple

jB


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## 82nd_Airborne (Mar 28, 2012)

> Have you ever tried to simulate rain drops?


Perpetual rain filtration! That would look amazing.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

I'd like to do it with top ups. Have the cool water rain down into the tank.


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

Jason Baliban said:


> HAHA!! I have been feeling wimpy recently!
> jB


Digital photograhy instead of film = wimpy

Feeling a little bit more wimpy now Jason? :biggrin:


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> Digital photograhy instead of film = wimpy
> 
> Feeling a little bit more wimpy now Jason? :biggrin:


Are we talking 35mm film or large format film? If we are talking large format vs dslr, then yes, dslr = wimpy!

jB


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

I'm talking about capturing an image in pixels regardless of sensor size compared to Film.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

ShortFin said:


> I'm talking about capturing an image in pixels regardless of sensor size compared to Film.


Tough call...digital is actually a little less forgiving....in both film and audio.

For audio i would prefer to work in analog, but its astronomically more expensive! For images, i would probly stick with digital unless we were talking large format.

jB


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## 82nd_Airborne (Mar 28, 2012)

> Tough call...digital is actually a little less forgiving....in both film and audio.


With digital however, you can have an instant proof of the photo, delete, and retake if necessary. Film, you'd have to wait til it was developed or develop it yourself.

+1 wimp factor for digital


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

82nd_Airborne said:


> +1 wimp factor for digital



I cant think of an argument against that.

jB


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