# co2 monitor on kickstart



## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

mythin said:


> Just got an email about this earlier today, looks really interesting though,
> 
> Basically it monitors your co2 and also acts as a controller if you plug you solenoid into it, so you can always keep your tank at 30pp co2. I think the early bird was $160 (canadian, whatever that is in USD). Anyways I thought it was a interesting product so I thought I would share.


$185 USD is actually not that bad for such a device if it works as intended. That black box sticking out my beautiful rimless tank though...


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

I sent him an email to ask if the PPM measurement is adjustable. He replied with the following:



> excellent question that I haven't properly addressed in the video. The final models that I will be sending out will have 2 extra buttons, one to decrease the set point, one to increase the set point. The prototypes in the video had to be controlled by software, but that will not be the case with the reward units. I will have the units preset to 30 ppm set point, and you will have the ability to raise or lower that set point by pushing the buttons.


For $195 shipped USD for super early bird I figured why not so I am in for one.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> $185 USD is actually not that bad for such a device if it works as intended. That black box sticking out my beautiful rimless tank though...


It says if they reach their stretch goal they will offer a clear and a white version as well. 

It seems like an incredible idea if it works. I'll probably pledge for one.


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## mythin (Jun 26, 2009)

gus6464 said:


> I sent him an email to ask if the PPM measurement is adjustable. He replied with the following:
> 
> 
> 
> For $195 shipped USD for super early bird I figured why not so I am in for one.


Did you ask him how its calibrated? Is there a prob or any liquid that needs to be calibrated or does it keep measurement long term with no adjustments, thats what I wonder.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

mythin said:


> Did you ask him how its calibrated? Is there a prob or any liquid that needs to be calibrated or does it keep measurement long term with no adjustments, thats what I wonder.


Its calibrated to our atmosphere. According to FAQ you just go outside and after a couple mins hit the calibrate button.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I find the 390ppm calibration to be a funny thing since atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been rising steadily. It's now at ~400ppm. How will that affect the measurement in the tank?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

What I don't get is why this doesn't exist yet, that's what makes me a bit skeptical. One thing that sucks about kickstarter is that unless they are giving out a fully developed product, you want to wait. For example, I would much rather wait for a remote probe which seems very feasible in a future model. If it really works, this is great.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I find the 390ppm calibration to be a funny thing since atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been rising steadily. It's now at ~400ppm. How will that affect the measurement in the tank?


It has a USB controller for data collecting and software updates so you can almost certainly change the atmospheric calibration depending on global co2 levels. It is a good question though.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I find the 390ppm calibration to be a funny thing since atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been rising steadily. It's now at ~400ppm. How will that affect the measurement in the tank?


I messaged him again to see if the zero point in the unit can be changed to the most up to date CO2 information from sites like co2now.org which has this handy chart.

http://co2now.org/Current-CO2/CO2-Now/global-co2-board.html

If you can change the zero point for calibration then this thing is full-proof.


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## randylahey (Sep 14, 2013)

Being in the same town as this guy, I know of him and his business. http://www.aquafloranurseries.com/  they do tissue culture plant pots for canada. I have purchase many of their plants and have been quite impressed. 

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Heard back from him on calibrating the zero point:



> Hi Gus, it certainly should be possible for me to include an update for the
> controller. However, there is one issue that may make it unnecessary, and
> I'll try to explain. PPM (parts per million) is not a universal measure of
> gases, because it can actually be parts per million by weight or it can
> ...


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

Hi, I'm the guy who built the OCO, and I thought it would be easier to post some responses to this thread directly. 

If folks did want to update the CO2 calibration, that wouldn't be a problem, I can write a simple program that would do it. 
However, the difference between 390 ppm and 400 ppm of CO2 in air is very small compared to the swings we see in our tanks, and this is because the unit of measure we use in our tanks is *ppm by weight*, whereas the atmospheric science guys use *ppm by volume*. Converting ~400 ppm by volume is approximate 3-4 ppm by weight, so if we change 390 ppm to 400 ppm, the difference in the meter's reading would be something like 0.1 ppm. 

It's not a huge difference, and honestly there's probably more noise and error in the reading itself, but, if folks would want to be able to change the calibration value, I can easily provide a procedure to do it.

Sorry about that, the response got posted before I could finish typing!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

What's the difference between ppm by volume vs. ppm by weight?


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

The ppm by weight is the ratio of co2 (in mg) dissolved/contained within 1 kg of water (which at standard conditions is 1 Litre). So if there was 30 mg of CO2 dissolved in a litre of water, that would be 30 ppm by weight, and this is what we use with aquariums most often.

When dealing with only gases, like atmospheric sciences (which I'm not super well versed in), CO2 is quoted as a ratio of how much volume the CO2 occupies in the total volume. 

These two different measures can be interconverted, but the relationship can change depending on the pressure of the gases, temperature, etc, and Henry's Law must be applied. Luckily, for aquarium use, most tanks are around the 20-28 degree celsius mark and more or less around 1 atmospheres of pressure so there will not be large discrepancies. 

The same effects work on drop checkers, and as far as I know, drop checkers work pretty much the same in different temperatures and altitudes, within reason.

However, since CO2 in our atmosphere is continually increasing, and since it is possible that the rate could increase in the near future, I am now leaning towards including the changeable calibration point, possibly as an extra step in the original calibration process.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Co2 monitor under 200 dollars? Sign me up!


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## mythin (Jun 26, 2009)

Hey, thanks for coming on here and answering questions, this thread blew up after I posted it earlier. I ended up grabbing the last super super early bird  Good luck with your kickstarter, product looks sweet!

Does the ph of the tank affect the product, or is that what it is measuring? How exactly does it know the ppm of co2 in the tank? 

Thanks again!


aquaflora said:


> The ppm by weight is the ratio of co2 (in mg) dissolved/contained within 1 kg of water (which at standard conditions is 1 Litre). So if there was 30 mg of CO2 dissolved in a litre of water, that would be 30 ppm by weight, and this is what we use with aquariums most often.
> 
> When dealing with only gases, like atmospheric sciences (which I'm not super well versed in), CO2 is quoted as a ratio of how much volume the CO2 occupies in the total volume.
> 
> ...


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

The OCO works on the same basic principle as a drop checker, in that CO2 from the aquarium will diffuse out of the tank, through the probe membrane and into the detector chamber inside the meter. As the gas builds up, the detector measures light absorbance and calculates how much CO2 is inside the chamber, and from that, calculates how much CO2 is in the tank.

This is a faster take on the drop checker because the CO2 gas does not have to redissolve into the 4dKH bromothymol blue solution, and the detectors are very sensitive.


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## bmo (Jun 11, 2014)

i wanna back this so bad, but i do not believe i have the funds


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Personally.. I think you should have a "control head" and the power plug seperate..

I'm not crazy about hanging 110V on the lip of my aquarium...


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## thedarkfinder (Feb 29, 2008)

Honestly, it will have to get will under 100 bucks to be worth it, and then it is a stretch. Why? PH meters do the same thing and are proven over time. The only thing that this does is give the OCD crowd a direct reading. But nothing here that can not be done cheaper and proven by current methods. Take a sample of your water, let it degas for 24 hours, test ph. Then take the kh of the water. You now have your ph reading for 30ppm by a simple scale. Since you should have kh and ph test kits for your aquarium anyway, there is really no savings for you. Lastly. It says nothing about drift time and drift level. According to the website, it can take up to 30 minutes to degas for the calibrate, 30 minutes is a long drift time before turning of the solenoid. Not saying it is a bad idea, just don't see the point.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> I find the 390ppm calibration to be a funny thing since atmospheric CO2 concentrations have been rising steadily. It's now at ~400ppm. How will that affect the measurement in the tank?


401ppm according to CO2now.org LOL, I had a tshirt as a kid from the fledgling moment in the 70's - Ozone Patrol. 

How is this kickstart unit better than a unit such as the Milwaukee MC122 pH Controller for $120?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

webskipper said:


> 401ppm according to CO2now.org LOL, I had a tshirt as a kid from the fledgling moment in the 70's - Ozone Patrol.
> 
> How is this kickstart unit better than a unit such as the Milwaukee MC122 pH Controller for $120?


Because the Milwaukee is just that, a pH meter. pH can vary wildly depending on substrate, water used, etc. This unit will be much more accurate.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

thedarkfinder said:


> Honestly, it will have to get will under 100 bucks to be worth it, and then it is a stretch. Why? PH meters do the same thing and are proven over time. The only thing that this does is give the OCD crowd a direct reading. But nothing here that can not be done cheaper and proven by current methods. Take a sample of your water, let it degas for 24 hours, test ph. Then take the kh of the water. You now have your ph reading for 30ppm by a simple scale. Since you should have kh and ph test kits for your aquarium anyway, there is really no savings for you. Lastly. It says nothing about drift time and drift level. According to the website, it can take up to 30 minutes to degas for the calibrate, 30 minutes is a long drift time before turning of the solenoid. Not saying it is a bad idea, just don't see the point.


Your own post pretty much explains why this unit is worth it. Why would I want to go through all that when I can just plug a device in and it will do all the work for me without any measuring or guesswork. CO2 meters for greenhouses cost considerably more than $200.

Why buy an auto doser when I can just dose EI myself by hand? It's called convenience.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

All these new gadgets and gizmos...sigh, these guys are profiting big off inexperience and knowledge. It took me like 5 trys to start growing soft water high light plants and its really gonna get to me if everyone else can too with all this new stuff like twinstar and this...Its gonna make me feel less special about myself . Really, who needs drop checkers, or test kits, or a co2 controller(just fine tune it). Old school over new school.


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

StrungOut said:


> All these new gadgets and gizmos...sigh, these guys are profiting big off inexperience and knowledge. It took me like 5 trys to start growing soft water high light plants and its really gonna get to me if everyone else can too with all this new stuff like twinstar and this...Its gonna make me feel less special about myself . Really, who needs drop checkers, or test kits, or a co2 controller(just fine tune it). Old school over new school.


I find it funny when freshwater folk complain about gadgets when reefers have considerably more equipment in their tanks. Whenever a new device is released that makes their lives easier they rejoice instead of complain. I guess this why freshwater is but an afterthought to a lot of companies.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

gus6464 said:


> I find it funny when freshwater folk complain about gadgets when reefers have considerably more equipment in their tanks. Whenever a new device is released that makes their lives easier they rejoice instead of complain. I guess this why freshwater is but an afterthought to a lot of companies.


Theres just no need though...thats why, the ocean is way harder to mimic


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

StrungOut said:


> Theres just no need though...thats why, the ocean is way harder to mimic


Not really though. I ran a nano reef for a couple of years with nothing but a powerhead and heater. Both sides of the hobby can be done minimalist style if you prefer. There are some huge tanks in reef central with amazing corals and they contain nothing but tons of circulation in the tank. I for one hate measuring CO2 intake and always worry about dumping too much CO2 in my tanks. I will gladly welcome this device in my tank and hope the kickstarter succeeds. If the twinstar didn't stick out like a sore thumb in a tank I would buy one in a heartbeat too.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Well you win the battle on marine, reef, saltwater cause I know nothing about, I just know that there is a ton more **** out there for corals, fish, inverts so on cause the ocean takes up 71% of the earth. But yes I have heard from a member that the best reef tanks have the least amount of junk. I guess...Unless you have end of tank dump then why is it so hard to eyeball your co2? I have fauna too. Look I have a measly two year degree so....I'm not gonna argue it, just complain, all this stuff is unnecessary


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

Looks like there's been quite a bit more discussion since I checked this thread. I totally agree that a hobbyist who has mastered CO2 dosing by watching their plants' growth does not need a CO2 meter or controller. But for people like me who sometimes let their tanks go a week longer than they should before pruning, or a few days longer than they should with a water change, this sort of device adds a layer of certainty. 

I helped dozens of people in my area setting up planted tanks over the years, and CO2 dosing is almost always what goes wrong, either too much or too little. This is one way of helping people who haven't had the benefit of years of practice of knowing what good growth is versus great growth. And it isn't a substitute for good practices, like fertilizing, water changes, pruning, etc.

In my experience, I found pH to be a reasonable, but not fantastic, indicator of how much CO2 was in the tank. I have used controllers, but only get about 12-16 months out of a probe before it doesn't calibrate and hold a proper linear standard any longer. Added to the issues of interference from substrates and dissolved organics, I really wanted to see if hobbyists are interested in a direct CO2 measuring and controlling device. I've had lots of great response so far, and some great criticisms too. Factoring in the need for replacement probes for pH systems, and routine pH probe calibration, I think the OCO is very good alternative, but I do like hearing from as many people as possible.


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## thedarkfinder (Feb 29, 2008)

gus6464 said:


> Your own post pretty much explains why this unit is worth it. Why would I want to go through all that when I can just plug a device in and it will do all the work for me without any measuring or guesswork. CO2 meters for greenhouses cost considerably more than $200.
> 
> Why buy an auto doser when I can just dose EI myself by hand? It's called convenience.


Because I do it once and call it a day? You honestly started dosing your tank with out checking levels every now and again? You just trust that what ever you set your doser at, it is currently doing it?

co2 for green houses cost a lot more because any faults with the meter can KILL YOU. If this thing breaks, you get dead fish. If your co2 meter in your green house goes down, you get a dead you. 



aquaflora said:


> In my experience, I found pH to be a reasonable, but not fantastic, indicator of how much CO2 was in the tank. I have used controllers, but only get about 12-16 months out of a probe before it doesn't calibrate and hold a proper linear standard any longer. Added to the issues of interference from substrates and dissolved organics, I really wanted to see if hobbyists are interested in a direct CO2 measuring and controlling device. I've had lots of great response so far, and some great criticisms too. Factoring in the need for replacement probes for pH systems, and routine pH probe calibration, I think the OCO is very good alternative, but I do like hearing from as many people as possible.


I have one probe on my 180 gallon for 8 years. Every year I take it out, clean it, calibrate it (it is always on target), and place it back. Never had a probe fail (own 10 of them) with out me breaking it. If you let the water degas for 24 hours it does not matter the substrate or dissolved organics.

But you seem to be attached to the project. What is the drift time and drift degree of the probe?

The easiest way to do this, and what I think they did, was take a air co2 meter, use it inside of a drop checker and called it a day. If that is true, the co2 drift time is up to 30 minutes and the drift ph degree will be insane.


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## Jester946 (Mar 30, 2013)

Great concept - but all it does is turn the co2 on and off - it doesn't regulate the flow.


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Jester946 said:


> Great concept - but all it does is turn the co2 on and off - it doesn't regulate the flow.



How is that different from a solenoid connected to a pH meter. You dont need to regulate flow if you know what the pH is or in this case the actual C02 concentration in the water. 

I think this is a great idea. A direct reading without all the fuss of setting up a pH meter. I always wonder if there are variables that are impacting my pH and thereby altering the co2 concentrations in my tank. This takes out the guess work. 

If you think its just a gadget then dont fund it. IMHO I love the idea and throwing in my 2+ C notes in. I hope this gets funded! :biggrin:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jasa73 said:


> How is that different from a solenoid connected to a pH meter. You dont need to regulate flow if you know what the pH is or in this case the actual C02 concentration in the water.


Well "ideally" you use "process control" to regulate a valve to add CO2 incrementally and by using "algorithms" to predict lag time and needs you create a much more stable environment.. Obviously neither this nor a normal "pH" controller (sub $200) can do this..

something for "version 2"... 

Also in version 2.. timer.. for those who don't want cont. CO2..


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## Jester946 (Mar 30, 2013)

jasa73 said:


> How is that different from a solenoid connected to a pH meter. You dont need to regulate flow if you know what the pH is or in this case the actual C02 concentration in the water.
> 
> I think this is a great idea. A direct reading without all the fuss of setting up a pH meter. I always wonder if there are variables that are impacting my pH and thereby altering the co2 concentrations in my tank. This takes out the guess work.
> 
> If you think its just a gadget then dont fund it. IMHO I love the idea and throwing in my 2+ C notes in. I hope this gets funded! :biggrin:


Exactly what Jeff above me said - I want it to control the flow as well, this way it'll auto adjust up and down to KEEP the co2 ppm more consistent than "on/off"


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Jester946 said:


> Exactly what Jeff above me said - I want it to control the flow as well, this way it'll auto adjust up and down to KEEP the co2 ppm more consistent than "on/off"


Frankly i think that would raise the cost and i wonder how beneficial that would be. I mean 30 ppm c02 is what most believe to be a good concentration, but whats so bad about 29ppm or 29.5? Its biology and we've set the value at 30ppm when its just as likely that range of c02 ppm is just fine - as long as the plants have enough available Carbon, out grow algae. There are a host of variables to consider from tank to tank, light, ferts, plants.

I dunno. I guess I'm less concerned about having an exact 30 co2 ppm from minute to minute and more interested in having an simple and accurate way of monitoring co2 levels with less fuss.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jasa73 said:


> Frankly i think that would raise the cost and i wonder how beneficial that would be. I mean 30 ppm c02 is what most believe to be a good concentration, but whats so bad about 29ppm or 29.5? Its biology and we've set the value at 30ppm when its just as likely that range of c02 ppm is just fine - as long as the plants have enough available Carbon, out grow algae. There are a host of variables to consider from tank to tank, light, ferts, plants.
> 
> I dunno. I guess I'm less concerned about having an exact 30 co2 ppm from minute to minute and more interested in having an simple and accurate way of monitoring co2 levels with less fuss.


You are slightly missing the point.. It is swings.. Lets say the monitor has a set range of +/-1ppm.. CO2 drops and it opens the solenoid.. For the sake of discussion we will leave out a "metering valve" for a moment....

30psi rushed to the diffuser.. The ppm now swings higher, overshooting the 1ppm drop.. solenoid shuts off..but now has to wait till it goes below the set point again.. thus oscillating around a mean of (pretend) plus or minus 5ppm...

Add a needle valve that under supplies @ open.. Solenoid turns on at 1ppm drop.. Needle valve setting takes time.. drops another ppm before CO2 starts rising.. Another type of oscillation..

for those in cold climates.. think "furnace" and what it does.. cycles of too hot too cold (unless you have one of those fancy "intelligent" furnaces w/ multistage firing.. 

In other words an on/off cycle w/ no intelligence takes time to recalibrate for a change..

how important is this?? Well not terribly actually, but it is worthwhile..

Example of a process control pH controller.. Price is high because it is an industrial product w/ low demand.
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hanna-instruments/process-instrumentation/hi-504112-1.htm
it's $600 btw..

but think of a simple unit w/ PWM relay output.. and a small correction table for time lag based on response time to setpoint..

As a visual.. 









Just substitute pH (CO2) for temp....

Think of "modulating" the relay to smooth fluctuations..

The "parts" to do this is relatively cheap in this day and age..the r/d is another story...

Yes it would cost more.. maybe.. or yes it should cost more.. 

(snip, not important)

for those so inclined to boring trivia..
Explains a bit on proportioning and hysteresis... 
http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/hanna-instruments/pdfs/hi-504_manual.pdf


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

StrungOut said:


> All these new gadgets and gizmos...sigh, these guys are profiting big off inexperience and knowledge. It took me like 5 trys to start growing soft water high light plants and its really gonna get to me if everyone else can too with all this new stuff like twinstar and this...Its gonna make me feel less special about myself . Really, who needs drop checkers, or test kits, or a co2 controller(just fine tune it). Old school over new school.


That's great if you've done it for years and have it mastered. However the simple fact that there are 2-3 thread on this forum every WEEK with people who gassed their fish or can't figure out why all their fish are dead when they have 80ppm CO2 show a pretty big market for a product like this.

People are easily fooled by pH controllers since they have to do constant detailed testing of their parameters weekly to know what the drop should be, and the controller needs to be calibrated quarterly or the readings become meaningless.

Drop checkers need to have their solution replaced occasionally and they take hours to respond to changes in CO2 concentration and they don't do anything to stop you from gassing your fish.

This device essentially combines the ease of the drop checker with the accuracy of the pH controller without having to do all the calibrations. To me that is worth it.


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## thedarkfinder (Feb 29, 2008)

aja31 said:


> That's great if you've done it for years and have it mastered. However the simple fact that there are 2-3 thread on this forum every WEEK with people who gassed their fish or can't figure out why all their fish are dead when they have 80ppm CO2 show a pretty big market for a product like this.
> 
> People are easily fooled by pH controllers since they have to do constant detailed testing of their parameters weekly to know what the drop should be, and the controller needs to be calibrated quarterly or the readings become meaningless.
> 
> ...


 99% of people that gas their fish are using diy, which this will not stop, or can not afford to get a ph checker, which this is twice the price. And you do not need to do weekly testing of your water for a ph meter, if you water comes from a stable source. IE tapwater or well. In very few places does water quality change so dramatically, week to week, you need to test it. if it did people would revolt on how odd their water tasted. I run about a dozen or so, probably more, ph controllers, the cheap kind. I NEVER had a problem with gassing any of my fish. EVER. I do pull the probe, clean it, test it, and put it back ONCE a year. I never had to calibrate a probe that has been working in a tank. I even did a quick google search, and can not find ONE person that claims what you are claiming. PS. You still need to do the testing with the oco meter. Sorry.


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

jeffkrol said:


> You are slightly missing the point.. It is swings.. Lets say the monitor has a set range of +/-1ppm.. CO2 drops and it opens the solenoid.. For the sake of discussion we will leave out a "metering valve" for a moment....
> 
> 30psi rushed to the diffuser.. The ppm now swings higher, overshooting the 1ppm drop.. solenoid shuts off..but now has to wait till it goes below the set point again.. thus oscillating around a mean of (pretend) plus or minus 5ppm...
> 
> ...


No i understand there are oscillations and delays in the system response. In the end though, one must consider cost and benefit. The oscillation is a given but i argue that in fact the plants dont necessarily suffer from a little less or little more..it all depends on the variables at play...and in fact what is likely more important that we keep in within a certain range. So why complicate things and add cost to achieve an idealized concentration of c02 that is likely not ideal at all.

I mean isnt that why many of us dose EI? Its too complicated and too much effort to have to keep testing your water for missing nutrients. So why not dose so that the plants have what they need (and probably more than they need)resetting the system with a weekly water change. 

Let me ask you this... why 30ppm? Why not 29ppm? What's wrong with 31 ppm?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jasa73 said:


> No i understand there are oscillations and delays in the system response. In the end though, one must consider cost and benefit. The oscillation is a given but i argue that in fact the plants dont necessarily suffer from a little less or little more..it all depends on the variables at play...and in fact what is likely more important that we keep in within a certain range. So why complicate things and add cost to achieve an idealized concentration of c02 that is likely not ideal at all.
> 
> I mean isnt that why many of us dose EI? Its too complicated and too much effort to have to keep testing your water for missing nutrients. So why not dose so that the plants have what they need (and probably more than they need)resetting the system with a weekly water change.
> 
> Let me ask you this... why 30ppm? Why not 29ppm? What's wrong with 31 ppm?



Well it is part of a wish list....

I never said it was "necessary"....


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

An update was sent out about this project:



> I got word from the engineer that I will be able to offer the OCO CONTROLLER as the original model OR with a remote sensor. I'm planning on getting the drawings and exact details soon, but for anyone who is interested in a remote sensor, I will ask all backers at the end of the project which form they want, original or remote.
> Unfortunately the OCO MONITOR will not be available with the remote option at this point.


What would a remote sensor do?


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Matthew RJ said:


> An update was sent out about this project:
> 
> What would a remote sensor do?



I had a conversation with Tim Burton the developer. My question to him was if the unit needed to sit on top of the tank. He said "yes" because there is a probe that needed to extend into the water. That would have been problematic for me because i dont have a rimless not to mention the aesthetic issues. 

The remote sensor takes this restriction away. I assume the sensor would be connected by a wire, not unlike a pH probe. Though it would be uber cool if it were wireless.


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## R.W. (Jun 9, 2014)

I backed this, it would be great to see this in motion. An accurate device to read co2 levels thats not too costly. The remote sensor is much preferable, don't need that sitting on top of the tank.


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## Roach360 (Mar 6, 2014)

I'm happy to be a backer of this project, and I hope more people recognize the value of being able to monitor the exact PPM of gas in their tanks.

This will help me with the primary struggle to having a sumped planted tank this far.


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## Loumeer (Feb 13, 2012)

jasa73 said:


> I had a conversation with Tim Burton the developer. My question to him was if the unit needed to sit on top of the tank. He said "yes" because there is a probe that needed to extend into the water. That would have been problematic for me because i dont have a rimless not to mention the aesthetic issues.
> 
> The remote sensor takes this restriction away. I assume the sensor would be connected by a wire, not unlike a pH probe. Though it would be uber cool if it were wireless.



I hope its not wireless. Wireless requires batteries. What happens when the batteries run out? Does it forget to turn off the solenoid so you gas your aquarium? Or does it not turn it on untill you realize a week later your Co2 isnt working?


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Well it looks like this is happening. $1900 left with 16 days to go. Bring it on!


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

gus6464 said:


> Well it looks like this is happening. $1900 left with 16 days to go. Bring it on!



That's great! 10 or so backers more!


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Project Update #2: OCO is Funded! as of this morning.


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

Well, I'm in - great idea and I am looking forward to seeing a successful project conclusion!. Only 3 spots left at the $215 (CDN) level for the controller as of 9:15PM PST today.

Barry


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

Now to decide if I want probe or of on top of tank version.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

hope in future it comes with a longer probe or something , that big thing sitting on the tank just look unsightly , also a chance it might drop into the tank ?


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## Kensho (Oct 24, 2012)

Sign me up once there's a probe


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

*probe*

There was an update that says a probe will be an option at no extra cost.


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

Matthew RJ said:


> There was an update that says a probe will be an option at no extra cost.


any pics ? now it can be hidden in the cabinet ?


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

The project developer (Tim) is on this thread and perhaps can provide more details. 

You can go view the FAQs on the Kickstarter page (you'll have to search for it as it appears mods have deleted them), but here is the updated post from the FAQ:



> Quick question about mounting. I don't have a rimless tank. I have an acrylic tank. Is there a probe that goes into the water that i can run off a wire, or does the unit itself need to sit on the edge of the water and dip down into tank?
> 
> UPDATED JULY 2: YES, the remote probe is a GO! As for those who want a remote probe instead of a fixed probe, I will be offering this option on all the OCO CONTROLLERS (but not the monitors). When the project concludes at the end of July, I will contact all backers to find out which form they want, ORIGINAL (like in the video) or REMOTE PROBE. There will be no increase in price to have the choice of probe.
> 
> ...


Barry


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

Yes, the OCO CONTROLLER can come with either the remote probe (ie, body of the unit can be kept under the aquarium cabinet) or the original version which is featured in the video. The monitor will only be available as featured in the video for now, but future versions may have a remote prove, depends on what people want.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

aquaflora said:


> Yes, the OCO CONTROLLER can come with either the remote probe (ie, body of the unit can be kept under the aquarium cabinet) or the original version which is featured in the video. The monitor will only be available as featured in the video for now, but future versions may have a remote prove, depends on what people want.


That is good to hear but it is also disappointing, only because I really want to support, but I don't want to buy twice. That's kind of the problem with Kickstarter or crowd funding, the product needs the funding to be what you really want.


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## aquaflora (Jun 27, 2014)

It's definitely a challenge finding a fit between everything that everyone wants and all the possible things that anyone could want (at least I find it challenging). If later on (after the kickstarter is done and totally completed) people do want the remote probe monitor, it would definitely be more expensive than the original version, probably within $10 of the controller model; that's the reason why I decided not to offer right now. It is also quite possible that I won't make a remote probe model of the monitor, folks so far have far preferred the controller (but is that due to not offering the remote probe? Still have to find that out...). The support for the project has been great, thanks to everyone who's helped!

Tim


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm curious about user reviews. The discussion here has been interesting but all people have had to go on was a video. Best marketing is word of mouth.


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

Matthew RJ said:


> I'm curious about user reviews. The discussion here has been interesting but all people have had to go on was a video. Best marketing is word of mouth.


The first units won't be shipping until next month...the goal of the Kickstarter project was to fund final development and production.

Barry


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

There won't be any public reviews because they have not shipped.

I'll post review when I get mine.

There is no one size fits all.


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

Bump. Sorry to dig up an old thread, but I am curious if anyone has received theirs


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Not yet. They are still working on it. 

Thats two projects that got delayed.


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

Latest update is that they will ship on Dec. 22nd. 

These kind of delays are to be expected with a new product and cottage industry tech project, but the program owner could do a better job of keeping everyone informed with updates, this was the first update in 6 weeks (we are now 2+ months after the expected ship date). 

Barry


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## mlongpre dxYh (May 24, 2014)

dbarrym said:


> Latest update is that they will ship on Dec. 22nd.
> 
> These kind of delays are to be expected with a new product and cottage industry tech project, but the program owner could do a better job of keeping everyone informed with updates, this was the first update in 6 weeks (we are now 2+ months after the expected ship date).
> 
> Barry



Agreed. Need more consistent updates.


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

But there's a release date ... so I'm excited to hear reviews.


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

oh, i'm pretty excited to hear reviews on this product


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## zerodameaon (Dec 2, 2014)

Missing release dates and inconsistent updates is just the way kickstarters are. As long as this does not go the way of Makibox the products will ship eventually.


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## mlongpre dxYh (May 24, 2014)

Did they get shipped out? Anybody know?


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## corrupt (Jan 25, 2014)

?????


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

Most recent update:
--------
Hi Everyone, I hope you've enjoyed your holidays so far. As I'm sure you noticed, last Monday came and went. I still have a final issue to resolve and it has taken a bit longer than I expected. The first small group of test units were built, tested and sent out to a few people for 'in the field testing' last month, but unfortunately, the probe casings broke in each unit. It has taken until last week to figure out why this was happening. It turns out the acrylic glue I have been using to make the probe casing produces enough vapor while curing to weaken the casings enough to fail after a certain length of time. 

I have been busy making new probe casing bodies for the last week, and I'm hoping to have everything replaced quickly and re-test all the units. 

I really hope this is the last issue to resolve, I want to get these units to everyone as much as you want to receive them. 

For those of you waiting for the next batch of OCOs, I'll be taking orders once this first group has been completed and shipped, hopefully within the next 2-3 weeks (and world wide shipping is not a problem).

I do apologize for the continued delays in responding to emails as well, there is a huge volume of email I'm working through. Thank you for your understanding and patience,

Tim
-----------


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

*....*

does anyone have a review? Someone should have received one by now


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

An NDIR Sensor can measure Co2, these things exist already and are coming down in price. You can even have it inline, people do that in the fermenting industry. I'm not sure how closely this is related to the kick starter, but the tech is out there. 


















The dark magic behind the sensor...


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Are you talking about an Orp/Co2 controller?

Who make that sensor you just talked about?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

nvm


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

webskipper said:


> Are you talking about an Orp/Co2 controller?
> 
> Who make that sensor you just talked about?


The company and name of the model is on the product. 
It's not a Orp/Ph/Co2 controller, the picture shows you how it measures Co2.



mistergreen said:


> The resolution isn't enough for 40+ ppm aquarium. Pretty close though.
> 
> You can use it to measure non co2 injected tanks.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


I didn't know that, is the value set by the technology or could it be calibrated to read higher? There is a few other options, I remember reading one for brewery (fermentation food-grade) and most of the others were marine, ecology research. 

Then I realize how much boring it was and close the 3 tabs I had open. Hey, anyone out there a marine biologist? 

"The sea was angry that day. Like an old man sending soup back at a deli"


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

OOPS! I'll have to change my statement. I just did the math and it's entirely useable in the CO2 aquarium. I didn't have my CO2 calculator .. How much does this cost?


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

mistergreen said:


> OOPS! I'll have to change my statement. I just did the math and it's entirely useable in the CO2 aquarium. I didn't have my CO2 calculator .. How much does this cost?


I was wondering where you got 40ppm from. These things measure Co2 in the thousands .....

















I think the lowest price was around 200 without a data logger.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

The creator of the kicker starter explain it. There is ppm by weight and by volume. 20,000 ppm is by volume/air. You have to convert that to by weight/ in water.

700 ppmv in the air is only 3.8 ppmw in water.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Just an update on this. Backers have not heard from Tim since December. We have asked for updates and have not heard a thing. According to Kickstarter data he hasnt even logged in since December. I and multiple people have have asked for updates and now refunds. It's very upsetting. I've backed dozens of projects on KS and this is the first one to go south. I'm hoping that by posting here Tim will take the time to respond to his backers.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Asked for my refund last month and got it. Of course the Canadien Dollar strengthened since I paid so the refund was less.

Bummer, would have liked to have had this unit.


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

I'm disappointed as I was hopeful this would be a useful addition to the aquarium set up. There is also another project that was fully funded via Kickstarter: the Fishbit. The people behind that project are open to CO2 capability in future versions of their product.

Maybe as Jasa said, we'll get some more info and communication about the OCO in the near future.


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm trying to get a refund but Tim isn't responding to emails or posts on his KS page. He's gone completely dark. All along I've explained how I understand delays especially with Ks. I've funded dozens of projects, but going dark for months at a time is completely unacceptable.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

jasa73 said:


> I'm trying to get a refund but Tim isn't responding to emails or posts on his KS page. He's gone completely dark.


I couldn't get an answer at his business. I called Kickstart and they said they do not oversee the projects.

Try posting on the comments that you want a refund.

I think I emailed him through his profile page and got a response. I'd still contact kickstart.

I'm thinking an Apex Jr will be my best bet when I upgrade to a kessill pendant. It has wifi and ios compatible. CO2 probe are extra but, it'll help stabilize the tank.


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

I didn't think Apex had CO2 capability


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Matthew RJ said:


> I didn't think Apex had CO2 capability


Apex can connect to a pH probe and based on the pH swing, a script can then cut your co2 in and out via a controlled power outlet for your solenoid.


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## Yo-han (Apr 15, 2010)

I backed the project as well. First and last KS I backed. Have been trying to contact him since january. He did checked in on kickstarter end of February, but no reply or update etc. something serious must have happened to him I guess. Can't imagine him running out with the money after all the efford he made replying on a dozen of forums.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I just found this thread today, so I'm late to the party, which seems to be over anyway. It looks to me like this just didn't work out like they expected, so they dropped it. If I had to guess what went wrong it would be that the response time was much longer than expected.


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## Yo-han (Apr 15, 2010)

I don't mind, I still prefer to receive a slow response device over nothing at all. Now it looks like he just stole my hard earned money!


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## Ductapemaster (Aug 22, 2012)

Yeah I backed this as well and it's frustrating to see this happen. Not the first time I've been burned by a hardware project either!

I did pay him after the kickstarter ended as he had a few units left over to reserve, but I'm way past the Paypal refund time (45 days), although Paypal has this language in their TOS:

"If you have a different problem with this payment sent to someone outside the United States - for example, the payment was never received, or it was processed for the wrong amount, - you have up to 180 days to dispute it. To file a dispute for this payment or to request a written explanation of your rights, go to the Resolution Center or call Customer Service."

That's written right after the section on refunds for products not received.

I'm 144 days since payment, so I could still dispute. I won't hold my breath though. Paypal is notoriously hard to deal with in situations like this.

I sent him an email direct (I talked to him close to the time I paid him) asking if things are still moving along and if he was having difficulties with engineering, as I am an engineer. I've not completely given up hope, but there's not much left sadly.


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

Ductapemaster said:


> I sent him an email direct (I talked to him close to the time I paid him) asking if things are still moving along and if he was having difficulties with engineering, as I am an engineer. I've not completely given up hope, but there's not much left sadly.


Did you hear back from him re your Email? I also sent several Emails, as recently as last week, but no reply.

It's not the fact that the project might fail as much as the lack of communication that is so upsetting. One of the sponsors/investors might be able to assist with any logistics, production, or technical issues. Worst case, if the project has failed, *Tim owes it to us to explain*...better yet, with a partial refund. This would go a long way towards minimizing anger and unhappiness, and protect his reputation in the long term.

Life circumstances change, businesses stumble, and projects get delayed - that is a fact of life, and people (especially hobbyist communities) understand - as long as they are kept informed. Tim took over $16,000 from well meaning supporters and investors who only wished him to be successful and were willing to take some risk, but who also expected to be treated with respect. Tim's continued failure to reply to the many requests for status is extremely troubling and is not a good reference point for his career, especially in such a small and close online-focused community such as ours.

At some point, the 88 or so people he has upset will take action. And unfortunately for Tim, the Internet is forever.

Barry


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

So there is no recourse if he explains it didn't work out correct? I know everyone wants an explanation but if his explanation is it didn't work out, all of the funds he lost trying to make it work are not expected to be returned?


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## dbarrym (Jun 8, 2014)

MoreyFan said:


> So there is no recourse if he explains it didn't work out correct? I know everyone wants an explanation but if his explanation is it didn't work out, all of the funds he lost trying to make it work are not expected to be returned?


None through Kickstarter, that is clear from the T's&C's we all accepted when we signed up. I talked to my CC company and there is no recourse there either. 

If he does not contact anyone about status soon, it may be worthwhile to contact the B.C. PD to see if there is any recourse there (for those who feel inclined to do so); as he never showed any proof of progress, and then went completely silent/underground in December, this smells like possible fraud. *The only way to prove otherwise is for Tim to provide a full accounting of status and progress to date*.

If anyone wants to try and contact Tim directly, here is his info:

AquaFlora Nurseries
attn: Tim Burton
28481 Starr Rd, Edmonton, BC V4X 2C5, Canada
Phone +1 604-857-5755 
Fax: 604.755.4234
[email protected]
http://www.aquafloranurseries.com/about_us.php 


Good luck,


Barry


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

*yikes*

This is getting serious. Fraud & the police dept. ....I might feel different if I was in on this project for more than the $5 thank you note.


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## Yo-han (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm in it for 1 controller and feel quite pissed. Like mentioned before, I know I took a risk. Explain to me everything you did, why it failed and why it can't be fixed and I accept that my money is gone. Right now this smells like fraude or something serieus happened to Tim, but that makes me pissed.

Anyone tried to call him?


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

Yo-han said:


> I'm in it for 1 controller and feel quite pissed. Like mentioned before, I know I took a risk. Explain to me everything you did, why it failed and why it can't be fixed and I accept that my money is gone. Right now this smells like fraude or something serieus happened to Tim, but that makes me pissed.
> 
> Anyone tried to call him?


At what point is it fraud? If he admits that even working out all the bugs would have resulted in borderline performance so he lost interest that could be fraud right? 


In any case it would be better for him to say nothing if people are threatening him with legal action. I am definitely on the side of explain to the people who funded him what went wrong though.


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## Yo-han (Apr 15, 2010)

IMO, it's fraud when he took (part of) the money and used it for something not related to the project. At this point, no one knows whether this is the case or whether he's in the hospital or something, so I still hope he will answer one day. I would even be happy with an unfinished product right now. Perhaps I can work out the bugs or something.

The strangest thing is his last update is from december and he was 24th of feb online for the last time...


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## [email protected] (Feb 22, 2015)

I was wondering why I couldn't find out anything about this outside of KS and his website! Glad this thread was resurrected...I was confused by no further information on his website.
Sorry to hear some of you ponied up some cash! 
Things fail, but no explanation is just not right!


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

*....*

I was really hoping this project would succeed, but someone at my lfs was skeptical of the idea


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## talltrees (Apr 5, 2015)

I am in the same boat. Paid Tim after right after he was backed, and unfortunately paid through paypal by emailing him directly and not going through kickstarter at all. Therefore i'm not able to post on his kickstarter page. I've tried emailing him several times, the first few emails before december were generally answered, but since then, nothing. I just tried calling the phone number dbarrym posted and it went to a completely different business. How has he just fallen off the face of the earth? I'm at the point where i'd like to talk to other backers and figure out what we can all do/if there is anything that can be done. I live not too far from Vancouver and am tempted next time i'm there to find where his shop is apparently located to see if it even exists.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FYI, Kickstarter makes it very clear that they are not responsible for projects not happening. They would like the person who got funded to clarify things but they do not make it the responsibility of the person. Sorry to say but refunds are likely not happening unless it is directly by the person and just because he didn't deliver the product, or communicate issues, does not mean he did not put that money towards development of the product, which was essentially the reason for the backing, the product is the bonus.


I was personally very interested in this myself but I decided to wait to see if it would come to market. I am not totally against crowd funding but without a strong track record of delivering and other unknowns, I skipped it. 

Don't get me wrong, I feel bad for anyone involved but Kickstarter is very clear on this. I know people who use this and are very legit, but it's always a back up if they cannot get private investors, or the project doesn't lend itself well to private investors well.


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## [email protected] (Feb 22, 2015)

I have no dog in the fight, I feel sorry for the lost money, if I had seen this sooner I would probably be in the same boat.
AND not try to start anything but, 

isn't the whole idea behind kickstarter is it may never come to fruition?


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

Kickstarter does a good job to clear themselves of any liability. Fully funded projects can and sometimes xo fail, but according to their terms, a builder should provide good communication about delays, explanations...and refunds where possible. The problem here is 0 updates


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## talltrees (Apr 5, 2015)

Exactly. I totally understand kickstarter is not liable. What I don't understand is why Tim has not communicated in 3 months. I am willing to wait on the project, I just want to know it is still going to come through at some point.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Good news: he sent an update

Bad news: project could not secure liability insurance so the project has been canceled. He is currently issuing refunds. 

Hopefully he will release the plans in the future so we can build this ourselves. It seems it was working but couldn't legally be sold to us by a company.


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## PhilipS (Jan 9, 2014)

Bummer.

The insurance was too high to make it possible without raising prices.

They will now liquidate everything to pay back the people who backed him.

Glad I got my refund months ago.


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## Loumeer (Feb 13, 2012)

Sounds like a crock of [censored][censored][censored][censored]. Sorry everybody.....I have a product that could potentially become a huge hit with thousands of Freshwater Aqaurium enthusists but I don't want to shell out the money for liability insurance?


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

Why does a product need liability insurance? Does the Milwaukee MC120 have insurance?


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## 691175002 (Apr 28, 2009)

It's a plausible explanation. Nobody is going to insure what is essentially a mains-powered box sitting over a bucket of water when the design has come from a hobbyiest.

Note that conventional pH monitors only run a low voltage probe to the tank, and might even be powered by a low voltage dc transformer. The design posted on kickstarter had 120V straight into the box.

He could probably sell a kit. I'm sure a lot of us could get pretty far with only the sensor.


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

MoreyFan said:


> Why does a product need liability insurance? Does the Milwaukee MC120 have insurance?


Your joking right? of course they do.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

This is a real bummer. But I think a lot of people in this thread completely misunderstand what Kickstarter is and what their payment to a project represents.

All money paid to Kickstarter projects is essentially a charitable donation for which you are not guaranteed any return. You are not an investor, you are not buying a product and there is absolutely no obligation on the part of the recipient or Kickstarter to actually give you a product or a refund. IF the project is funded, and IF the project is successful and IF they don't just run off to Mexico with your cash, you MIGHT get what they say you will get in exchange for your donation.

That is the business model, and it will not change, and you will not get refunds unless the people behind the project are feeling nice. If you are not willing to lose the money that you spend on Kickstarter projects then you should not use the service, and you should wait until tangible products come to retail. It sucks sometimes, but that is the reality of the business model.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Beefy said:


> This is a real bummer. But I think a lot of people in this thread completely misunderstand what Kickstarter is and what their payment to a project represents.
> 
> All money paid to Kickstarter projects is essentially a charitable donation for which you are not guaranteed any return. You are not an investor, you are not buying a product and there is absolutely no obligation on the part of the recipient or Kickstarter to actually give you a product or a refund. IF the project is funded, and IF the project is successful and IF they don't just run off to Mexico with your cash, you MIGHT get what they say you will get in exchange for your donation.
> 
> That is the business model, and it will not change, and you will not get refunds unless the people behind the project are feeling nice. If you are not willing to lose the money that you spend on Kickstarter projects then you should not use the service, and you should wait until tangible products come to retail. It sucks sometimes, but that is the reality of the business model.


+1 well stated.


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## Matthew RJ (Jul 4, 2012)

I actually got a response from the people behind "Fishbit" (also funded through kickstarter) ...I was asking if they might come out with something like the OCO. Here's the reply:

------
we're very much community focused and know how important it is to keep everyone in the loop. 

We've actually gotten a few inbound notes about OCO, and it does seem like quite the bummer as they haven't done a great job of communicating their status. But it's definitely an interesting idea! 

We're very much focused on FishBit Beta, but we are planning to offer the device without the salinity probe; a number of freshwater folks have reached out asking about it. Hopefully in the future we can introduce a separate module for CO2"
------


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## MoreyFan (Jul 3, 2014)

jrill said:


> Your joking right? of course they do.


I'm not really joking. His small time kickstarter formed company is in such danger it needs more protection than a CE or FCC marking will provide?


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## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

MoreyFan said:


> I'm not really joking. His small time kickstarter formed company is in such danger it needs more protection than a CE or FCC marking will provide?


You asked if a company like Milwaukee needed product liability insurance. Of course they do.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

MoreyFan said:


> I'm not really joking. His small time kickstarter formed company is in such danger it needs more protection than a CE or FCC marking will provide?


Every product that reaches market needs liability insurance. From chairs to pillows to CO2 monitors. 

As soon as someone accidently pinches their finger in a chair, suffocates their friend or gasses their fish the first thing they will do is sue the company that made the product. The insurance is in case this happens. 

I know a friend who wanted to get a unique pillow sold on the market. It took her $12,000 in permits and fees to get the $8 pillow onto the market. Now imagine a 120V connection going into a tank with $1000's of fish in a bucket of water....

I'm hoping he will publish the design so we can just make it ourselves... or sell the kits privately.


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## Sunsetsearider (Sep 30, 2012)

I just looked at his site and it seems he will not be able to produce it and will send refunds. It said there may be a DIY option. Sounds like an interesting concept.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

I wanna make one DIY style!


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## Williak (Jun 26, 2012)

(I realize this thread is over 2 years old...  )

I've been in the hobby for almost 8 years now, and somehow never heard about this.

Did anyone ever take this any further? 

I'm assuming not since ph/kh scaling is still the most common practice. Something like this would have been so great to take all guess work out of measuring co2 levels


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