# Age Discrimination When Buying Fish?



## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Today I was at PetSmart and I was going to buy a Rubber-Lip Pleco and 10 Black Neons. I asked for help and the lady looked up and down at me and asked me for my age. I told her I was 16 which I am, although I look like I'm 12 she shot me down and said you need to be 18 or you Mom or Dad needs to be with you. Ok so kind of pissed... I just simply walked out nothing to say. I drove home thinking about calling in and complaining which my Mom is doing right now, I mean if I'm old enough to drive legally why not buy fish. Plus I bet we all here are more knowledgable than they are. So I was wondering have any of you younger people experienced this? And is this a real rule, I mean I know they are allowed to deny service but not on the premises of age right?


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

well you have to look at it two ways. one is that the lady was trying to do her job and she is worried about some young punk taking fish home just because they look "cool". for all she knew, you were about to sentence them to a half gallon bowl. the reality is, is that you know better. i think rather than turning around and leaving, you should have explained to the sales person what you have and what you know. after realizing that you are full of knowledge and experience, i'm sure she would have changed her mind. believe me, i experience this on an almost daily basis where 16-18 year olds want to come in to buy oscars, pacus, snakes, and other "tough" living things because it's simply "cool" to have and own. they don't care enough about taking care of it, but just want it. i think she had good intentions, but failed to look past your age. sorry this happened to you.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Jan 20, 2006)

> thinking about calling in and complaining which my Mom is doing right now


If youre not old enough to complain, youre not old a enough to buy fish!

Serious - if you can convince them that you are more capeable than your parents at fishkeeping, there should be no problem buying fish the next time, but letting your mon handle this situation dont give you much to negotiate with next time.


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## danepatrick (Jul 17, 2006)

also, think about if it were in the situation of a snake, or reptile, or something where most people (parents) would say NO. as a salesperson, we have to say no to certain ages who are not accompanied by an adult. certain parents would call the store where it was purchased and raise hell about "why did you sell a snake (in your case fish) to my son/daughter." she was merely being protective of the fish she was responsible for.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

why didn't you just show her your drivers license?
or gotten your Mom on your celphone to talk to this $8/hour clerk.
i don't think you were age discriminated against,
i just think that particular women is a just little nuts.
you need to be 18 to shop at a pet store?
only a wacko would makes up such nonsense.

you should call Call Petsmart corporate at 1-888-839-9638
ask them to fill out an "issue form" complaint with the store
number (or address) time, date, and clerk name if you have.
Petsmart has no such age limiting policy, but individual stores
may in-act their own policies without Petsmart's consent.


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

I believe the petcos near my house have a similar policy posted in their live pet sections. They won't sell live animals to those under 18 years unless accompanied by adults for the "safety" of the animals.

-Charlie


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks SpyPet, no but what really erks me is that she was the same lady that saw me purchase a fish before, and now all of a sudden 18 only? I mean its stupid, but yet I can see why there "could" be a rule against that.
---
SpyPet I just called the 1888 number and the lady I talked to said the company has never issued an age policy for fish, but there is one for reptiles/bird and adoption of cats/dogs. So apparently if they don't have their own rules what they did to me was wrong. Correct?


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

it's not that "they did you wrong".
it's that clerk is misinformed on company policy.
that's why you need to file a "issue form" complaint 
to set her straight for the sake of other "minor" shoppers :wink:


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Lol, I will I've placed a couple of phone calls already. One to another PetSmart in my area and they said that they don't have that rule.


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

i agree with danepatrick. you could look at the situation as a diligent clerk concerned for an animal's welfare, but you are too focused on being insulted that they think a 12 year old is not capable of providing proper care for fish.

what are you hoping to accomplish by complaining?


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

I used to work at PetsMart way back in the day in high school when I was 16. I was only there a year before I moved on to a smaller and better store. I was 16 and I was WORKING there. C'mon now. If they were willing to hire a 16 year old who had only ever kept a couple bettas and didn't even own an aquarium with absolutely no training whatsoever to sell their fish, then I don't see why they wouldn't SELL TO someone the same age who actually KNOWS what they are doing!

You definately have a complaint. Don't put up with that! I really hope you follow up on this as far as you possibly can - and I certainly hope they compensate you for the discrimination!


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

AlGee, the clerks intent may have been a good one,
but she extended the company policy to include fish,
which was her mistake, not this young looking 16yo.
such a "complaint" does not get anyone in "trouble"
it simply helps to be sure employees know the rules
instead of making them up as they go along.

Wookie, I know this is going to sound like further
age discrimination, but realistically your complaint
will gain a lot more traction if your Mother complained
on your behalf, then if you pursue this yourself.




> I certainly hope they compensate you for the discrimination!


come on Jen, don't put any unrealistic ideas into this kids head.


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

jen, what would you have done if a lone 12 year old wanted to buy fish? the op admitted to looking really young


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

maybe that particular store has an age policy set by the manager?


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

AlGee said:


> i agree with danepatrick. you could look at the situation as a diligent clerk concerned for an animal's welfare, but you are too focused on being insulted that they think a 12 year old is not capable of providing proper care for fish.
> 
> what are you hoping to accomplish by complaining?


What I hope to accomplish by complaining is not being walked all over and not being taken advantage of. The lady doesn't think I won't do anything to get my point across? Well I did, and now I'm just waiting to see what will happen.


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

how are they taking advantage of you? in the future, are you gonna keep complaining when you get carded for beer too?


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## conduct (Mar 25, 2005)

Just wait when you are 35 and get carded for beer or smokes. It makes a person feel good that they might think you are under age.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

I would of told her to shove it and went to another store. Done it before with Petco and will do it again. Petco won't do a darn thing. I wrote a letter complaining about their tank conditions and the pathetic help I didn't receive. I waited 20 minutes for someone to help me at the fish center, told the manager THREE times I needed help, and the fish area worker was playing with the cats....The company sent me one of those general letters "thanking" me for my concerns. 

The great thing is, you probably know more about fish than she does.

Algee he isn't 12, he's 16. There's a big difference between buying beer and buying a fish. One actually has a law attached to the purchase, the other doesn't. According to information here Petco has no such rule that fish can only be sold to those over the age of 18. He has every right to complain (although it won't do a darn bit of good with Petco).


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

yeah i know but he said he looked 12 and i'm guessing the clerk thought so too. i'm sure if he took up the issue with her directly and produced id to prove his age, she would have sold him the fish


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

> come on Jen, don't put any unrealistic ideas into this kids head.


When I've had cases of extremely poor customer service or poor quality, I've written letters explaining the circumstances and there were a few times where it actually made a difference. I found a metal shard in my aspen bedding, so I wrote the distributor and I was sent a coupon for a TON of free bedding. Service like this is what I EXPECT, and it certainly isn't an unreasonable or unrealistic expectation.


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Ok Algee... hypothetically speaking. What if you were in my position your 16 went to buy a fish (your excited) but was denied by a worker stating a false policy. What would you do if you knew that it wasn't a true policy after researching, would you call in and complain or simply just let it be? And I'm just going to post a couple of pictures up to show you what I look like. 

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/wookiexmonster/DSC00186N.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/wookiexmonster/DSC00113N.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/wookiexmonster/Picture020.jpg


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

you know, i'm not really sure how i'd react. i'm not saying what you're doing is wrong. you do whatever you want. but why didn't you confront the clerk and prove your age? talk to her manager? i think the situation couldve been cleared up right then and there. i wonder if corporate will actually do something about it. probably just a letter.

btw you look 16 to me. unless youre really short or something


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Yea I'm 5'4 so short. Lol, yeah I know I should've confronted her, but she didnt ask for ID or anything plus I wasn't thinking while I was walking out. But I was thinking when I was driving home. I was going to make a U-turn and go back and ask but decided let me be smart and make sure I have my facts straight and calm down.


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## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

I think she should have simply asked you a few questions about tank size, other inhabitants, time running, etc. She would have seen that you know what you are doing and sold you the fish. Sadly, these people usually don't care enough to ask. I had nearly the same problem as burks and stopped going there. A complait to corporate about that and some other things did nothing at all.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Yoink has a good point. They really don't care very much. Although there is the rare chance that a very knowledgable and nice person does work there (I applied at Petco, didn't get the job, must be too nice). One day a worker at Petco told a couple that the common pleco wouldn't get "no longer than 8-10 inches". Thankfully they didn't have any money on them so they didn't purchase it. Their only tank was a 10g...

You could call the manager of the store directly. They may actually help you or something. It's a long shot. Or you can let it drop and shop at smaller stores. You may pay $1 more but service is worth it.


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## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

Last time I went to this particular chain store, the idiot killed several fish by smashing them against the substrate with the net while trying to catch them. She said it made them easier to catch. I raised a concern about the dead & half-dead "floaters" in the bag. When she said they were "fine" I just turned around and walked out.

Don't expect much from them and you won't be disapointed.


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

Wow, 18 to buy a fish. I must agree with DanePatrick though. I also deal with people trying to buy things they shouldn't ALL THE TIME. I deal in venomous reptiles and some pretty nasty spiders and scorpions, and, I have the luxury of deciding just who will be able to buy what. It's a tricky situation. In my personal situation, selling to the wrong person, eg, underage, state law, can have legal implications as well. Just put yourself in the associates shoes for a moment......if your fish gets out of the tank and bites one of the neighbors, and that person dies because they weren't able to get antivenin in time, would they be held accountable? :hihi: 

The fault, is simply that the associate didn't take the time to ask. I think you have a righteous complaint!

hmmmmm....maybe the associate was just too lazy to catch your fish?


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## thirston (Nov 17, 2004)

Wookiellmonster said:


> Today I was at PetSmart and I was going to buy a Rubber-Lip Pleco and 10 Black Neons.


One quick fix would be to go to Ocean Blue instead :icon_smil

I can't believe they have a policy requiring you to be 18 to purchase fish :icon_frow that's absurd.


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## Color Me Blue (Nov 10, 2005)

I would have asked for the manager on the spot (nicely), especially since you have bought fish at that PetSmart before. If they would have still told me no, then I would have left and taken my business elsewhere. 

It's so easy to become upset when things like this happen. We feel like we are being insulted/violated in some way and sometimes we are. For those of us who are no longer considered teenagers, it's easy for us to say that he should have done this or that in this situation. But I can remember being 16 and not "knowing" what I should do in such situations. You know....knowing it's "ok" to question authority (doing this with your parents is the training time; some are better at it than others LOL). It's around that age where you are just learning to assert yourself in the "real" world and learning that you actually have a "voice" in this world. It's a learning process as we all know.... (ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now)  

I just have to say this: *Kudoos* for your Mom caring enough to help you out with this situation. I don't care how old you are....Moms will be Moms. At least you know you have a mother who cares about her son!


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Wookiellmonster said:


> be smart and make sure I have my facts straight and calm down.


WoW, I was nearly twice your age before I figured that bit of wisdom out... :wink:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wookiellmonster said:


> Today I was at PetSmart and I was going to buy a Rubber-Lip Pleco and 10 Black Neons. I asked for help and the lady looked up and down at me and asked me for my age. I told her I was 16 which I am, although I look like I'm 12 she shot me down and said you need to be 18 or you Mom or Dad needs to be with you. Ok so kind of pissed... I just simply walked out nothing to say. I drove home thinking about calling in and complaining which my Mom is doing right now, I mean if I'm old enough to drive legally why not buy fish. Plus I bet we all here are more knowledgable than they are. So I was wondering have any of you younger people experienced this? And is this a real rule, I mean I know they are allowed to deny service but not on the premises of age right?


I'd have my folks call their store manager and complain, then I'd also make sure the District manger got a call.
Then I'd never go back.
Then I'd add a signature that says: "Petsmart: where pets go to die."

I worked from the age of 8 till 12 at a LFS.
It's pretty humbling to a customer when a 10 years knows more than the customer:tongue:

Classic case:
Plenty of incompetent people that are over 18 keep and kill fish, every single person on this site has killed fish, some? A lot of fish.

Plenty of highly skilled kids under 18 that love the hobby.
Parents often are not that involved, perhaps they should be, but often they are not.

Point is: age has little to do with being a competent aquarist.
I was breeding Malawians at 10 years old and my folks virtually never set foot in the LFS, maybe once?

Like any good clerk working at a LFS, you are social to each and every customer, you either know them already and their set ups, or you ask them what they keep, ask about their set up, what they hope to have one day etc, you size up their competency. If they are likely to kill the fish etc, don't sell to them and tell them why. 

Diligent clerk?
Get real.

A dilgent clerk asks questions, is friendly, outgoing, 
Age is not the factor: experience, competency, habitat for the animals, realistic expectations for care etc, these are the factors. 

I had a few cases where places would not help me etc due to my age growing up, I collected rare coins and over a certain amount, they would not sell to kids, so I went out and got me an 18 year old "stooge" to do the deed for me:icon_twis 

Seems weird to not allow kids to be involved these hobbies.
Parents often have some interest and encourage their kids to get involved, but at some point, they are compete enough to handle things on their own and responsibilty and independence should be given.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Color Me Blue said:


> I would have asked for the manager on the spot (nicely), especially since you have bought fish at that PetSmart before.


This is probably the best bit of advice. Stay clam, rational, and focused (I know it's not easy to do in the heat of the moment). 

Age should never be the deciding factor. 
How many parent buy the 10 gallon aquarum kit & gold fish at the same time planning to read the "fin facts" booklet on th way home? 
When I worked at petland there was a woman who tried to buy baby orandas to put in a washed out 2 gallon vodka bottle. She figured it would be ok, since they can fit down the neck of the bottle. I couldn't convinve her this was a bad idea for any reason until I came up with what do you do in a couple months when 1 fish dies, and you can't get it out of the bottle.


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

Thirston you moved to N. Carolina, but I just mapquested that store and think I might go there Saturday to see what they have. But FINALLY! Something has happened I called the company yesterday, told the lady what happened she said she would call me back, but still hasn't because she was unsure of the rule. So I wrote them an email how I thought it was impolite for them not to call me back, and how they probably thought I was not serious. Plus I told them what happened at the store and threw in some information I got from this topic in there too, like how Jen use to work at PetSmart at 16. They told me they were extremely sorry and are in the process of sending me a 25$ Gift Card in the mail.


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## JenThePlantGeek (Mar 27, 2006)

That's what I'm talking about!!!!

I'm very glad they stepped up to help make this right. Way to go!


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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

$25, pretty good. Too bad you're not old enough to buy their fish with it... hahahaha j/k


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

Disreguarding all the happy animal posts and how the lady "was doing her job" lets get down to the bottom line.
You do not have to be any certain age to buy any fish. They are not ciggerettes and they are not hand guns.
There are no laws restricting the sale of fish to people of any age. 
There for her denying you based on your age is discrimination. 
Her "wanting the best for the fish" is totally irrelivant. Especially considering the store you were in.
As far as the law goes she has put her company in a perdiciment and a position of liablity. Her denying the sale based on your age is the same thing as denying service to a person of color. 
Thats the only part you need to consider. Opinions are just that opinions and don't add to a shread of worth as far as legality.



Wookiellmonster said:


> Thirston you moved to N. Carolina, but I just mapquested that store and think I might go there Saturday to see what they have. But FINALLY! Something has happened I called the company yesterday, told the lady what happened she said she would call me back, but still hasn't because she was unsure of the rule. So I wrote them an email how I thought it was impolite for them not to call me back, and how they probably thought I was not serious. Plus I told them what happened at the store and threw in some information I got from this topic in there too, like how Jen use to work at PetSmart at 16. They told me they were extremely sorry and are in the process of sending me a 25$ Gift Card in the mail.


The reason they sent you the gift card is because they know you are in a position to sue them for alot more money and hope to shut you up. 
You do have a very legimate case.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Blacksunshine said:


> The reason they sent you the gift card is because they know you are in a position to sue them
> for alot more money and hope to shut you up. You do have a very legimate case.


so not true. no such thing as teen age discrimination unless he's 
emancipated. you are watching way too many Ally McBeal reruns.

that $25 is called "good will"; every major corporation does it.

they know a single kid whining to everyone he knows
will do more negative marketing damage than it's worth.
so they basically threw him a bone to shut up, and move on.

If they were truly concerned legally, they would give him a lot more money,
and require him and his legal guardians to sign a non disclosure agreement.


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

it is not against the law to refuse to sell to anyone based on discrimination of age or even race. just bad business. they could refuse to sell you fish just because they think you are ugly. we aren't entitled to purchase.

wookiellmonster you should go back and try to get fish from the same clerk with your gift card lol

ps. be sure to let her know how you got it


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## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Phew... I'm pretty glad because around here (esp on cheaper fish outside arowanas and expensive exotics) even I, as a 7-8 years old was allowed freely to pick my choise without any adult supervision. Knowledge and care is the parameter and not age. As an 8-9 years old I played and bred betta, at 10 I keep oscar, at 11 I play with koi. As an infant I used to finish my meal around our 6-7 feet tank and refuse if not granted so. There you go.. background helps, so becareful how you raise your child, could end up as aqua freak :hihi: 

IMO, I'd say for some specially bred fish, rarities and exotics, special discrimination should be applied. A top breeder would not sell his $10,000 koi to some rich fool unless he knows what the person is capable of.


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

spypet said:


> you are watching way too many Ally McBeal reruns.


That was a pretty dumb statement. 



spypet said:


> that $25 is called "good will"; every major corporation does it.


Yep. they do it because they want to shut him up and drop the issue and not persue it.




spypet said:


> If they were truly concerned legally, they would give him a lot more money,
> and require him and his legal guardians to sign a non disclosure agreement.


Thats right. But only IF the person who looked at the issue realized that they could be in a position of liabality or if they thought he would even persue it past that point. they did give him the GC to shut him up. because a $25 GC is only worth about 10 bucks. Alot cheaper then getting the lawyers toghether to draft up all that paperwork. Its called the first line of resoloution. Thats not to say that it would end right there. 
Now what you are speaking about is an out of court settlement. Why would they go straght to the expensive settlement rather then just trying to pacify him with a GC? That wouldn't make much financial sense now would it?

Discrimination based on Sex, color or age is aganst the law. Where have you been for the last 40 years?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

As a few learned from the PSW suit, you can be sued for any reasons, even if they "are facts that are not true". haha, I love that line.

I think 25$ is a worth while amend.
Now that's a smart kid.

Too bad you cannot work at most places as kid any more.
Bring back child labor! haha:hihi: 
It worked for me

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

$25 is a decent amount. That can be a lot of fish or one really nice fish.

They could have sent you a letter and ANOTHER comment card like the company I'm dealing with.


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## Snazzy (Sep 24, 2006)

wow thats interesting. im 16 and ive bought a lot of stuff at petsmart, local fish place, animal jungle all including fish, plants tanks everything but before i worked and became good friends at my local fish store they wouldnt sell me the "drugs" for the fish desieses(sp) like any of the antibacterial stuff etc etc


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## Shadow (Sep 19, 2006)

When I went to Petsmart and PetCo both places had it IN VIEW that you had to be 18 to buy, pet and fish alike. Its for the safty of the pets but if you show them you know what your doing they will sometimes let you buy anyways, or hold it and you can return with a parent. The one around here is actually VERY knowledgable.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Must be a local thing then Shadow as I've never seen a sign like that in any Petsmart or Petco I've been to.

Odd...


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

spypet said:


> so not true. no such thing as teen age discrimination unless he's
> emancipated. you are watching way too many Ally McBeal reruns.


lol
that was funny


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Blacksunshine said:


> Disreguarding all the happy animal posts and how the lady "was doing her job" lets get down to the bottom line.
> You do not have to be any certain age to buy any fish. They are not ciggerettes and they are not hand guns.
> There are no laws restricting the sale of fish to people of any age.
> There for her denying you based on your age is discrimination.
> ...


What a bunch of crap. The law has nothing to do with the situation at hand. He could not sue for discrimination. 1: A 16 yr old cant sue any one. 2: He wasnt discriminated against. 

Most of the LFS I know of wont sell fish to kids without a parent present. Is the OP a kid? Yes.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

This strikes me as interesting for one thing. The range of views people have taken, and their opinions. before I comment I want everyone to know that I'm one of the younger/youngest active member on the board. I'm 14 and when I joined and started this hobby I was 13.

When I was first getting in to the hobby I would go to a local family owned pet shop and for a while they would always ask if my parrent or someone was with me as more or less a saftey. It was obvious I was much younger than most people and I didnt have any problem with that policy.

Now over the past year you get to know the people who work at your lfs if its a chain store or family owned store. Now no one asks me about a parrent because they know I know more about fish/plants than all most everyone who works there, and their manager told me that in the next year he pretty much expects me to be teaching him:hihi: . And he has said that he will hire me as soon as I can legally work.



Now your 16 legally driving to the pet store to get some tetras and a pleco, not pirahnas or something 'cool and dangerous' or anything of the sort. If I was in your situation I would question it right away:icon_excl prove your age, and if the employee wont listen, go to the employer ask to speak with the manager or owner of the place. question the action and explain yourself. 

Now I can understand how you would be VERY VERY mad about treatment like this, heck you drove there:icon_excl so it was probably a good idea that you just went home because you where not happy to say the least. The thing I dont support is then having your *mom* call. your trying to say your old enough and responsible and when you go home your mom calls? that is the only thing I would disagree with about what you said. Age is just a the number of times the earth goes around the sun. and shouldn't be a way to judge people. Personally persuing this legally I would say would be a waste of time, and money. Just don't go back and tell everyone to go somewhere else.

But the whole idea of going back and giving the employee a hard time might be fun! not exactly what you 'should' do but really fun!:hihi: 

OK I'll shut up. :help: 

Also I want to say thanks for sharing what happened, because I think it is pretty controversial!

- Andrew

Oh and tom, I agree about child labor its a royal PITA not being able to work.............:angryfire when you get out of school at 1:30 you need something to do! Hopefully I can get work papers soon though.


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## Wookiellmonster (Jul 29, 2005)

So today I went to go get my mail and I saw an envelope from PetSmart! In there was 25$ Gift Card which I already told you guys about with a type of an apology letter. It basically stated they were sorry for the difficulties I had with the store and wished for me to continue to shop there, but it was like a half of a page.

So then I went to PetSmart it was about 2:30 PM eastern time the time lady usually works then I saw the lady! I asked her for some help with some fish and she didn't ask any questions and just caught them for me. But I felt like I should make it a little harder for her. So after she put some air in it and tied it up she gave me the bags, of 10 black neons and 1 Rubber Lip Pleco. I looked at the bag with the 10 black neons I went back and told her that one of the fish had some white specles on it, looked like ich. Usually I would have just brought it home still, and have it in my 10 Gal QT tank but today I didn't feel like I wanted to do that. She had to dump the whole bag back into the tank and then get a different batch of black neons just because of the one I pointed out. I have to say this was kind of snotty of me to do, but oh well. I shouldn't have got any black neons in that tank to begin with since one already had ich, oh well the fish are in the QT tank, with temperature at 84F and half does of ich treatment. I have like 7$ left in the card. What an adventure!! Lol.:icon_lol:


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## AlGee (Sep 7, 2006)

purchase of fish is not a right. private companies can refuse service to anyone for any reason, even that one big no-no: race. but they don't because there would surely be bad press and its just bad for business. its just not in a business' best interest to discriminate. public companies can do it too, but i'm guessing the stock holders wouldn't like that.

no shirt, no shoes, no service? discrimination. you can have "no blacks" etc.. if you want. but the present moral majority dictates that it's not the right thing to do. your store would probably be torched too lol.

there's a cheesesteak sandwich place that discriminated against anyone who wouldn't use english, because of the owner's stance stemming from his views on illegal immigration, i think. even if you were an american citizen and were denied service because you didn't adhere to his rules, you couldn't sue. well, you could...but you wouldn't win.

law says you can't discriminate based on race, religion, and sexual orientation when it comes to employment, public accomodations, and housing. not buying fish lol


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

You are only 14? I sold you Shrimp!!!!:hihi: 



Fish Newb said:


> This strikes me as interesting for one thing. The range of views people have taken, and their opinions. before I comment I want everyone to know that I'm one of the younger/youngest active member on the board. I'm 14 and when I joined and started this hobby I was 13.
> 
> When I was first getting in to the hobby I would go to a local family owned pet shop and for a while they would always ask if my parrent or someone was with me as more or less a saftey. It was obvious I was much younger than most people and I didnt have any problem with that policy.
> 
> ...


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## fishers138 (Nov 3, 2006)

Wow this post took a while to read. 
AlGee I think you have the best post in terms of the whole lawsuit thing, you are absolutely right. A place of business can refuse goods or service to anyone they want, for any reason, or no reason at all. With that being said, I highly recommend you sue them. Seriously. It would give millions of Americans a great watercooler conversation, as ridiculous lawsuits always do. Maybe you could get the Daily Show to do an investigation. 

I'm glad the lady at petsmart was trying to be cautious. Most of their employees would not care at all. They would sell fish to a cat. With that being said, I think she went a little overboard. If you were 8 or 9 years old then maybe I could understand, but 18 years old to buy a fish is ridiculous. Even if you look 12, she should have asked a few questions about your setup and experience. My LFS asked me a few questions the 1st time I went in to buy some angels, and I'm 26. The petsmart lady cares about the well being of the fish, which is a good thing. She just doesn't understand how to determine who is or isn't capable of caring for fish. 
Anyway, congrats wookie on the $25, that's cool. You definitely had a legitimate complaint. Lawsuit? No way. The $25 was solely to keep your business and to keep you from complaining too much. Word of mouth is very powerful advertising. This post is a prime example. How many hundreds of people will read this post? And think a little less of petsmart because of it? Let's say they never gave you anything or returned your call or answered you in any way. You could conceivably go to hundreds of message boards like this and post all kinds of negative stuff about them. Thousands of aquarists would read the negative posts. Even if only a handful of those thousands of readers decided to shop down the street at petco or wherever, it could cost them hundreds of dollars in sales, and give it to their competition. This is marketing 101 stuff. You probably would have gotten the same $25 if your complaint wasn't legitimate at all. You could have raised hell if the salesperson looked at you wrong. Most of the big companies have policies like this in place. 

And making the lady dump the fish out and get new ones was pretty funny, don't let yourself feel too bad about that.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> You are only 14? I sold you Shrimp!!!!:hihi:


yep, I am willing to say I am the youngest most active user on the forum compared to my age. The shrimp are doing great most if not all Fmales are berried and there are baby shrimp going around the tank now!

Paypal is annoying being under age need to use parrents... ahh dont get me started,....


and yeah NO OnE HAS to sell you anything. DC could of said no I wont sell you shrimp because your 14 and will treat them too good...:hihi: 

- Andrew


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Young man if you are thrifty and savvy, you can pay for your college through this hobby......DC



Fish Newb said:


> yep, I am willing to say I am the youngest most active user on the forum compared to my age. The shrimp are doing great most if not all Fmales are berried and there are baby shrimp going around the tank now!
> 
> Paypal is annoying being under age need to use parrents... ahh dont get me started,....
> 
> ...


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## Koi_Lover (Nov 8, 2006)

Its Rediculos to read some of the Opinions on this Post.
"If youre not old enough to complain, youre not old a enough to buy fish!"
Im 16 myself, and to hear that just disapointed me. What ever happened to the Quote "dont judge a book by its cover" 
Dont judge a 16 year old because hes 16, hes Probably more Intelligent and has a better understand of fish more than that person does. If i was with that Poor Kid, there would be Hell to pay, Excuse my language. Some people need to get with the program, and turning down a paid customer is Pretty immature and rude. What if i was going to buy a 1000 fish from them, and i just got turned down by some "Elder Punk" that is having a bad day. 
People have a Bad understanding of a "Teenager" these days and it should be stopped.
Id have that Person fired in a Second, and then Apply for that Persons Job ~~ Yeshh People, I feel bad for the Dude who Posted this. 
And if your On the "Clearks Side" Feel free not to Respond because thats just inappropriate. 
Hey wookie, Next time you go to the Petsmart, ill meet you there and make sure we get our Fish we DEMANDED!


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

I've been an extreme advocate for self regulation in the reptile hobby for years. Self regulation is key to the long term survival in this hobby as well as it is for reptiles...and as it was for model rocketry, ham radio, scuba diving, etc. The idea that someone is not mature or informed enough to keep an animal alive and thriving by a simple measure of age is rediculous. There are, however, lobbyists all over the country who would love nothing more than to report that a pet store sold any animal to any person that was irresponsible. These pressures are what make chain stores adopt rules which are likewise rediculous. How can anyone expect the uninformed (read sales clerk) to properly ascertain the abilities of any potential buyer when the a-typical sales clerk in these chain stores are not able. Meanwhile, you have another stereotypical 'earth child' screaming "Free Willy" outside the store window! 
Point....in order to judge anyone's abilities, you must have the knowledge yourself. 

By supporting these big chain outlets, where you can often find people shopping for fish saying things like, "I think I'll buy that fish it will match the furniture", expect more rules and ultimately tighter and tighter regulations concerning what you are able to buy. Keep in mind that it will not be based on legitimacy, but on the biased opinions of some very narrow-minded folks. The more these chain stores buy up wild caught fish in large volumes, the more fish end up on the CITES list and the less that we are ultimately able to share space with. 

Support your local mom and pop pet store. They are much more likely to put the responsiblilty of caring for any animal in appropriate and able hands. Not based on age, but based on the actual needs of the animal and the experience of the potential buyer. Although this is as big of a generalization as what was stated prior, I think that most would agree this to be true.

Support forums like these, where people can get emergency information before their little charges fall victim to inexperience. As much new information is discovered by us little 'hobbyists' as ever was discovered by any zoo, research institution, or scientific method. Collectively, we have the ability to do great things!

...sorry for the rant...I have a cold. I'm a little bitter when it comes to these things since I see the reptile industry constantly pounded with new legislation to "serve the common good". Why? because Joe Cool decided to take his 8 foot Boa Constrictor "for a walk". While little granny Gertrude got the bejesus scared out of her and called her local politician. Our pets are living things that require responsibility and knowledge....not commodities to be bought and sold like designer jeans.:angryfire


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## Koi_Lover (Nov 8, 2006)

Very Nicely Stated Opinion Lycosa-


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

DiabloCanine said:


> Young man if you are thrifty and savvy, you can pay for your college through this hobby......DC


Man I wish I could do that. $16k a year might be a bit hard. :icon_frow 

Good luck to you Fish if you do decide to try. I can't get a damn thing to breed....


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

Thanks Koi_Lover....I'm off the podium and on the "Q"(NyQuil). So I'm feeling a little better today.


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## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but this thread is bugging me on several levels. First of all, I agree, the lady at Petsmart was stupid. The world is full of stupid people. Get used to it. If you go nuts every time something bad happens as a result of someone else's stupid behavior, then you're going to live a complicated and unhappy life. Nobody died, nobody got injured. Don't make a mountain out of a small incident.

Lawsuit? Get real. Can you actually see yourself in front of a judge trying to explain why this is worth his attention? The courts are already so full that they can't get to the legitimate stuff.

Making a person at a fish store dump out fish with ich - why on Earth would you even be shopping there?


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

guaiac_boy said:


> Don't make a mountain out of a small incident.
> 
> 
> > Maybe Rosa Parks should have just sat at the back of the bus.....
> ...


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## guaiac_boy (Nov 5, 2005)

Well, as I understand it, Rosa Parks and Ghandi demonstrated non-violent defiance to injustices imposed by society at large. I think there's a fundamental difference in this case. Wookie was unfortunate enough to encounter a single employee who stupidly made the wrong call. I'm sure it was upsetting to him, especially at the time. He has an understandable gripe with the situation - I'd have been mad too.

My issue with many of the responses has to do with loss of perspective. There are many injustices in the world. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is probably down around 1 or 2 - hardly worthy of some of the suggestions here. I'm simply suggesting that patience and tollerance while working the problem are more useful than threats of lawsuits and cries of injustice. The victim mentality is getting a little old, IMO. Yeah, something bad happened - deal with it, get over it.


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

True, that it isn't by far an atrocity by any means. I agree that there is a fundamental difference between Rosa Parks, Ghandi and this situation. I didn't mean for it to be taken out of context. I simply implied that is a good thing that people on the forum are trying to help a young person stand up for what is right. I get aggravated easily over corporations and lawmakers making rules that are simply trying to bypass personal responsibility. Just think of the growing list of things that _adults_ cannot buy simply because some of us are not responsible. Despite any of the rants on this thread, I think it was handled best by Wookie himself. I'm up to my ears in rules and regulations which are biased/prejudiced/ignorant just to be able to sell a few reptiles and invertebrates. Threads like these are merely symptoms of a bigger problem. One that hopefully doesn't get away from us! Anyways, thanks for the debate, but I think that this thread is trying to die....maybe it should....


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## deleted_user_7 (Jul 7, 2003)

Hehe, speaking of age discrimination, I was going to GIVE a person on these forums a handfull of Pellia for $4.00 shipping. He wanted to send it through paypal and when I said I was 16 he didn't want to fool with me giving him plants...


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## lifetapestry (Jan 12, 2006)

fshfanatic said:


> What a bunch of crap. The law has nothing to do with the situation at hand. He could not sue for discrimination. 1: A 16 yr old cant sue any one.


Actually, it is your statement that is "a bunch of crap." Kids can and do sue all the time, especially in education related cases. Check out cases on peer sexual harassment in grade schools, disability accommodation in public schools, and school busing cases. Parents and guardians are allowed to sue on behalf of a minor child-- this is a basic principle underlying U.S. law. 

On the other hands, I doubt that this case falls under age discrimination. See some info on the Age Discrimination Act here: http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/age.html .

Even if discrimination did occur, I would see some difficulty prevailing in court because you have to show that you were injured as a result of this wrongful discrimination. Where's the harm here-- feelings hurt? It cost $5.89 to drive back to the store to attempt to buy the fish again?

Karla


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Lycosa said:


> I think that this thread is trying to die....maybe it should....


 before it does let me add the last additional comments :hihi: :hihi: :help: 
===


DiabloCanine said:


> Young man if you are thrifty and savvy, you can pay for your college through this hobby......DC





Burks said:


> Man I wish I could do that. $16k a year might be a bit hard. :icon_frow
> 
> Good luck to you Fish if you do decide to try. I can't get a damn thing to breed....


Well on that note I dont believe I will have the space to make the more around $25k a year to pay for at least 4 yrs of 'university'(sounds better:hihi: ) but If I do find another super rare something and make some good money off it right away it certanly will help, but hell this hobby has helped a ton. Where the heck do you hear a 14yr old having a job lined up and if there isn't a spot having a spot MADE at a employer where they have NO family ties? thats HIGHLY unheard of at least in the NE:hihi: . Most kids struggle finding jobs up here:help: 

but with combination of privet breeding and working at a lfs, I hope I can save some money to go twords further EDU.

I have some Plans/Ideas on some breeding types of things and you guys will probably be interested once I sit down and make the posts so I'll let you know!:hihi: 
===


Koi_Lover said:


> Its Rediculos to read some of the Opinions on this Post.
> "*If youre not old enough to complain, youre not old a enough to buy fish!*"
> Im 16 myself, and to hear that just disapointed me. What ever happened to the Quote "*dont judge a book by its cover*"
> Dont judge a _16 year old because hes 16,_ hes *Probably more Intelligent and has a better understand of fish more than that person does.* If i was with that Poor Kid, there would be *Hell to pay, *Excuse my language. Some people need to get with the program, and turning down a paid customer is Pretty immature and rude. What if i was going to buy a 1000 fish from them, and i just got turned down by some *"Elder Punk*" that is having a bad day.
> ...


Sorry but you crack me up, if anything you could of thought about what you where saying before you posted. some key examples of WHY "Elder Punks" think of this age group this way is what you just said lol.

I was one of the peple who said "if your not old enough to complain your not old enough to buy fish. AND its true. you can come and complain on a forum and have your mommy call, but you cant take that into your own hands? I would call that ROYAL BS(not brine shrimp:hihi: )

When where people books? I dont have a cover last time i checked:help: 

the whole he is probably smarter than the person working there is a very typical stupid statement, yes these places are desperate but saying a 16yr old is smarter than a older person is _usually _ what some ignorent kid would say.

"Hell to pay" for not getting some fish sold to you? what are you a gangster:icon_lol: ? Your 16 remember that, you sound like it too.

And if someone was going to buy 1k fish, they wouldnt go to petco:icon_smil (if they had a brain).

"turned down by an elder punk" who has a bad understanding of "a Teenager" right now I think their sterotype fits -.-

And if you where a smart manager you wouldn't fire anyone in a second. untill you knew exactly what happened.

I Really think you toook this WAAY too far.

====


Lycosa said:


> (took most out to try and shorten my post.)
> *
> Support your local mom and pop pet store. They are much more likely to put the responsiblilty of caring for any animal in appropriate and able hands. Not based on age, but based on the actual needs of the animal and the experience of the potential buyer. Although this is as big of a generalization as what was stated prior, I think that most would agree this to be true.*
> 
> ...


I thought that this was a very nice rant! I have to second the support your mom and pop stores because they are usually great! And when you refered to the large snakes banning was this at all implying what happened with New Yourk's law now for big snakes being illeagle i think? We all need to rant sometimes, Like I'm doing now lol.

====


guaiac_boy said:


> Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but this thread is bugging me on several levels. First of all, I agree, the lady at Petsmart was stupid. The world is full of stupid people. Get used to it. If you go nuts every time something bad happens as a result of someone else's stupid behavior, then you're going to live a complicated and unhappy life. Nobody died, nobody got injured. Don't make a mountain out of a small incident.
> 
> Lawsuit? Get real. Can you actually see yourself in front of a judge trying to explain why this is worth his attention? The courts are already so full that they can't get to the legitimate stuff.
> 
> Making a person at a fish store dump out fish with ich - why on Earth would you even be shopping there?


Thats too good, Imagine being in court telling the jury "well I went to petco to get a pleco and tetras and she said I was too young" jury "oh well, oh btw whats a pleco?"

I agree with what you said and I think thats what buggs mee tooo.

====


justlikeapill said:


> Hehe, speaking of age discrimination, I was going to GIVE a person on these forums a handfull of Pellia for $4.00 shipping. He wanted to send it through paypal and when I said I was 16 he didn't want to fool with me giving him plants...


thats total BS, Age is just a number the best thing to do is not mention age unless it is essential because it doesnt really matter. as most people find out because of me!

All in All sorry for the rant but I had to reply to this stuff, its sad what people end up saying and I hope I didnt especially offend anyone especially Koi. 

Well I gotta go have fun buying fish!

- Andrew


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## Koi_Lover (Nov 8, 2006)

Fish Newb said:


> Sorry but you crack me up, if anything you could of thought about what you where saying before you posted. some key examples of WHY "Elder Punks" think of this age group this way is what you just said lol.
> 
> I was one of the peple who said "if your not old enough to complain your not old enough to buy fish. AND its true. you can come and complain on a forum and have your mommy call, but you cant take that into your own hands? I would call that ROYAL BS(not brine shrimp:hihi: )
> 
> ...



As i can see, your starting to sound like the bad Employee at Petco!!!:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: . Just because your 20 years older than me, doesnt give you the right to say such things. I do have a Life Other than Posting *1095* threads on a Fish server.. *Cough* *Cough*
As of right now, I can tell by your Grammar that your probably not much older than i am. 
"but saying a 16yr old is smarter than a older person is _usually _ what some ignorent kid would say." You probably put more attention towards some Fresh water fish than your boyfriend/girlfriend/wife 
Saying that if "your not old enough to complain your not old enough to buy fish" puts you under the ignorent List yourself. Who said a 16 year old cant buy a Fish at a Petstore? Am i buying drugs?, NO! And if that kind of situation occured with me, i wouldnt run to my mommy. Since im a ignorant Teenager, ill act like a ignorant teenager. Right then and there i would handle the situation by myself. :flick: 

Since Older people consider Teens punks, why not consider them punks? What gives them the right to call us names when we cant call them anything? 
Its the people of this world that just have to make life seem so miserable. Give the kid a break, and let him have his goldfish. Dont think of the Negative aspects of everything. Who takes the time to think about what that kid is going to do with that fish he wants to buy. HUMM, i think i shouldnt give it to him because hes too young to take responsibility for it. Teenagers actually have better responsibility than an elder.

The Poor kid got his money that "HE" Worked for, NOT his Mommy. This whole thread turned into a huge controversy for no apparent reason. Only if people would just keep their comments to themselves.
So Sorry if i happened to affend you on this, but i had to take "Responsibility" and proceed to handle the situation "By myself" without my Mommy helping me.:icon_smil :icon_frow :hihi: :tongue: 

Ha, This is Exciting! I shall sign up for more Debate classes at school...They will soon benefit me again.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

technically, this is whatthey have to do and im not sure if its been covered im too lazy to read through it all. i worked at petsmart for 2 years and was pretty high in the ranking there. we do reserve the right not to sell to people, HOWEVER, fish can be sold to any one at any age with or without a parent. NOW - small animals, reptiles and birds you have to have some one related to you or a legal guardian OVER THE AGE OF 18. but only for those things, we sold fish to young people all the time.


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## Lycosa (Oct 16, 2006)

I foamed --I raved --I swore! I swung the chair upon which I had been sitting, and grated it upon the boards, but the noise arose over all and continually increased. It grew louder --louder --louder! And still the men chatted pleasantly, and smiled. Was it possible they heard not? Almighty God! --no, no! They heard! --they suspected! --they knew! --they were making a mockery of my horror!-this I thought, and this I think. But anything was better than this agony! Anything was more tolerable than this derision! I could bear those hypocritical smiles no longer! I felt that I must scream or die! and now --again! --hark! louder! louder! louder! louder! 

"Villains!" I shrieked, "dissemble no more! I admit the deed! --tear up the planks! here, here! --It is the beating of his hideous heart!"


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## Koi_Lover (Nov 8, 2006)

TheOtherGeoff-Your 75 gallon Tank is Amazing!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

No offence taken, I can see your point of view. OH and btw, I'm 14:hihi: . Grammor is off because I was extremely tierd and about to go to bed lol. the high post count signifies commitment to the hobby and too much time spent on the dam comp lol:hihi: 

and I have a life too, this is just a huge part of it :icon_mrgr  (1111 posts btw)

we should have a TPT debate squad:hihi: 

- Andrew



Koi_Lover said:


> As i can see, your starting to sound like the bad Employee at Petco!!!:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: . Just because your *20 years* older than me, doesnt give you the right to say such things. I do have a Life Other than Posting *1095* threads on a Fish server.. *Cough* *Cough*
> As of right now, I can tell by your Grammar that your probably not much older than i am.
> "but saying a 16yr old is smarter than a older person is _usually _ what some ignorent kid would say." You probably put more attention towards some Fresh water fish than your boyfriend/girlfriend/wife
> Saying that if "your not old enough to complain your not old enough to buy fish" puts you under the ignorent List yourself. Who said a 16 year old cant buy a Fish at a Petstore? Am i buying drugs?, NO! And if that kind of situation occured with me, i wouldnt run to my mommy. Since im a ignorant Teenager, ill act like a ignorant teenager. Right then and there i would handle the situation by myself. :flick:
> ...


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## bioch (Oct 1, 2006)

It could be race discrimination.


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