# 33 gallon "peer pressure" Dutch attempt



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

My old thread got ruined because of Photobucket and I lost interest so here's kind of a new journal! 

33g 24x18x18 Landen rimless tank on ADA style stand I built myself and laminated white.

Eheim 2217 and koralia nano 240 for flow.

ADA aquasoil

Kessil a160we on 10 hour light cycle. 2 hour ramp up and 1 hour ramp down so only 7 hours of full intensity.

8 otocinclus
7 Rummy Nose Tetras
22? Cardinal Tetras
Snails..

pH 6.5
GH 6
KH 3

Working towards GH 5 and kh 2

Plants:

Bacopa caroliniana
Ludwigia SP super red
Ludwigia Rubin
Mystery Ludwigia?
Blyxa japonica
Rotala Indica bonsai
Staurogyne repens
Ammania Gracilis
Pogostemon Kimberley
Cyperus helfiri
Alternanthera Reineckii Mini
Lobelia Cardinalis
Cryptocoryne Green
Clinopodium Brownei
Eleocharis Parvula
Rotala rotundifolia


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Alright looking forward to this. Subscribed.

Pictures coming soon????


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Alright looking forward to this. Subscribed.
> 
> Pictures coming soon????


Yep, coming right now! Just had to take some. 
My phone is abysmal at fishtank photo's and I've sold my DSLR unfortunately (hah and I have a sticky on aquarium photography.. hmm that reminds me I should fix the broken images in that thread..)




So this is right after a rescape and trim so things look a bit off. 
I'm still horrible at groupings and what have you, plus I have collectoritis so my plants are very... cramped. 
I trimmed out a TON of blyxa to get it to this state, but everything that replaced the Blyxa is very short at the moment!
Not to mention my hairgrass got WRECKED when I ran out of co2. More algae than Hairgrass now, really eager to replace it with S. Repens and some various Erio's, and a little patch of Hydrocotyle. 

I did some experiments taking very small pieces of Hydrocotyle and dipping them in Excel for a while and then planting them Emersed to see if I could mutate them in any way. 
I may have a super slow growing and short mutant Hydrocotyle soon.. Too bad it grows so slow it's putting out a leaf per week! Will never get to sell any of it! 










Top down, you can see most of the species from this angle, and this angle always seems so much more full!



























My kessil is SO bright on the leaf tips that hte camera can't adjust for the dark areas at all so it kinda looks 10x worse in photos!




































My Pogostemon Kimberley has started doing weird stuff too, one of the stems has very short leaves and a thicker stalk on the new growth.









and I don't think I have the dwarf Lobelia so this needs to go!
The blyxa should probably be replaced as well but I just cant bring myself to get rid of it since it does so well.


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## iamaloner (Jul 10, 2017)

How's the spread on the 160? I want to buy 2 for a 48*19*19 tank 
Do you think it would be a good light to grow most plants?

I presently have a current satellite plus pro 48" and ecoxotic e90 36"

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

iamaloner said:


> How's the spread on the 160? I want to buy 2 for a 48*19*19 tank
> Do you think it would be a good light to grow most plants?
> 
> I presently have a current satellite plus pro 48" and ecoxotic e90 36"
> ...


I am chasing higher and higher light so for me I kinda wish I had 2 on this tank.. 
But its plenty of light honestly, the spread would be fine for that tank. 
for a lot of plants and aquascapes I cant think of a better light honestly. 
I had two of the sattelite plus pro and swapped it out for this and it's brighter but also has more shadows so sometimes it doesn't seem brighter.


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## Spiffyfish (Jan 30, 2014)

Chlorophile said:


> I am chasing higher and higher light so for me I kinda wish I had 2 on this tank..
> But its plenty of light honestly, the spread would be fine for that tank.
> for a lot of plants and aquascapes I cant think of a better light honestly.
> I had two of the sattelite plus pro and swapped it out for this and it's brighter but also has more shadows so sometimes it doesn't seem brighter.


I switched from 2 satellite's to 2 Ai Primes on my tank and I get what you mean by more shadows. I wonder what causes that, if it's the degree of optics used? I do like these lights much better than the satellites though, opens up the top of the tank and it's easier to work inside.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Spiffyfish said:


> I switched from 2 satellite's to 2 Ai Primes on my tank and I get what you mean by more shadows. I wonder what causes that, if it's the degree of optics used? I do like these lights much better than the satellites though, opens up the top of the tank and it's easier to work inside.


Definitely, I love being able to just reach in and not bump anything ever!

The shadows are because the light is "point source" 

If you imagine holding your hand out under the light it would create one shadow of your hand. 
With two lights it would create 2 shadows both half as dark as the first shadow since there are now two sources of light. 
If you have a light bar there will just be a general dimming because there are so many sources of light that can get around your hand and get rid of the shadow. 

I kind of want a second kessil, but then I had debated switching to the 360 as well.. I might just wait and see if they are going to come out with anything with a bit more red any time soon.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Dosed more Ammonium Sulfate today, 1/16 tsp, i'm testing ammonia at 0 to 0.25 within 12 hours of dosing.. hard to tell for sure, probably closer to 0

It has been about 4 days of using the NH4 and I'd say i'm about 2 nodes of growth in since that point. 
The internodes are short as I saw in my test tank although hard to say if its just because its the new growth. 
I noticed the most dramatic shortening on Bacopa Caroliniana in the test tank, internodes were 1/4" to 1/8"

I'll be monitoring Clinopodium Downoi and Ludwigia SP Super Red in this tank for similar. 
To make sure it's not just lighting I've topped both plants so I can have much shorter versions in the tank.









Here you can see how short the two are, directly in front of Rotala Bonsai









Here is L. Super Red, the bottom few leaves are from before the Ammonium, then I started ammonium and also replanted the tops. 









Pogostemon Kimberley.. just cause! It's doing some changing also but not sure I like it, might just be low light cause its so short. The new leaves are shorter and wider than the growth from Burr's tank.









here is the untopped Ludiwiga, lowest growth is from when it was in Burr's tank, everything above the split on the central plant was in my tank.









also here is Ludwigia Rubin, I haven't topped this as I need some more growth out of it first, has probably put on about 4 inches in my tank and all the nodes have been short, not sure I see any response to ammonium on this plant but we'll see.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah that Kimberly is borderline stunting. Not sure how your macro dosing ties into the whole NH4 experiment, but it does best for me when larding on the macros, specifically NO3 and K. It doesnt take moderate levels well at all. (in my tanks)

And man...you should really get all that BBA out of there, even if means losing the hair grass. Just buy some more if you have to but all that crap needs to go asap.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Yeah that Kimberly is borderline stunting. Not sure how your macro dosing ties into the whole NH4 experiment, but it does best for me when larding on the macros, specifically NO3 and K. It doesnt take moderate levels well at all. (in my tanks)
> 
> And man...you should really get all that BBA out of there, even if means losing the hair grass. Just buy some more if you have to but all that crap needs to go asap.


As you may know from my other few threads my K is/was borderline insanity, 
I have assumed my NO3 was high based on my dosing, but my plants are STUFFED in there so maybe I'm using a lot more than I think. 
I'm dosing 25ppm NO3 per week plus the nh4..
It's not possible that its just because it is so short? Not a lot of light down there?

As for the BBA, I have a bag of shrimp soil coming so that I can suck the entire foreground out and replace. I want S. Repens and Erio's, possibly montecarlo.. not a fan of the hairgrass anymore. The Belem is so slow, I used to have E. Acicularis and it was taller and aggressive and algae free..


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Since you are trying to move your ammonium experiment over here, I'll do the same.

I've been thinking about your success with ammonium and my lack of seeing any difference between dosing urea and not dosing urea (should be the same with equalized dosing). The one thing none of us are accounting for are our pets. My fish load, in my 29 gal, is about double yours. I'm wondering if they are providing all the ammonium that my plants can use and the rest is just being converted into NO3 by the BB (NO3 is always in the 20-30 ppm area). This could be a big swing factor in deciding how/if to dose ammonium and urea.

If anyone wanted to do a much better controlled experiment, I think it would have to be done without any pets in the tank. Still, I want to see how your experiment plays out, particularly with respect to the internode observation.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Deanna said:


> Since you are trying to move your ammonium experiment over here, I'll do the same.
> 
> I've been thinking about your success with ammonium and my lack of seeing any difference between dosing urea and not dosing urea (should be the same with equalized dosing). The one thing none of us are accounting for are our pets. My fish load, in my 29 gal, is about double yours. I'm wondering if they are providing all the ammonium that my plants can use and the rest is just being converted into NO3 by the BB (NO3 is always in the 20-30 ppm area). This could be a big swing factor in deciding how/if to dose ammonium and urea.
> 
> If anyone wanted to do a much better controlled experiment, I think it would have to be done without any pets in the tank. Still, I want to see how your experiment plays out, particularly with respect to the internode observation.


Hah well somehow I've been roped into conversation on both threads so I'm not sure which one will be the long term chat. I don't think many of the fertilizer guys clicked through to here.

But I don't think fish load works the same, your fish are always supplying that ammonia but it's slow release, so the concentration isn't ever going to peak, plants and filter will always eat it up quickly.
Dosing it provides a spike in concentration, the filter won't be able convert it that quick and I think the slightly higher concentration is good for the plants. 
The extra food should feed some of the bacteria but they die off in 24 hours if unfed so I think it works out well...
I'm about to dose the tank again in a few hours and then I'll take an Ammonia test as this is now 3 days of daily dosing and I'm curious to see if I've accumulated any ammonia


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Personally I agree with Burr above. Pogo K. looks stunted.

IMO forget the Ammonium Sulfate for awhile.

Get CO2, lighting, and regular old macros right first (more).

And get back to basics. I'd do a large trim/pruning, get rid of algae infected parts, lower the mass, get some space between those species, and get things uber clean (vacuum, clean filters, extra water change).

See how things respond, then mess with things like Ammonium.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Agree with every word Gregg just said, emphasis on the cleaning and pruning part.

I wasnt sure if you were actually trying to fix things, or just running an ammonium experiment for the heck of it. But to get things right you need to do a BIG clean and pruning. Remove some biomass, all that old growth thats in bad shape. 

This general tank husbandry which is basically grunt work and so often overlooked will solve a multitude of problems

Then make sure CO2 is good and lard on the macros, especially KNO3. Keep dosing the .15 micro blend 4-5 times a week, daily or whatever.

There's no mysterious boogeyman to kill and no magical fix to solve everything. The same things will help these plants that help everybody elses - good husbandry, good co2, and plenty of ferts.

:mytwocents:


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Agree with every word Gregg just said, emphasis on the cleaning and pruning part.
> 
> I wasnt sure if you were actually trying to fix things, or just running an ammonium experiment for the heck of it. But to get things right you need to do a BIG clean and pruning. Remove some biomass, all that old growth thats in bad shape.
> 
> ...





Greggz said:


> Personally I agree with Burr above. Pogo K. looks stunted.
> 
> IMO forget the Ammonium Sulfate for awhile.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the input, I largely attribute some of the issues yall are seeing to my 11 hour photoperiod, but I could be wrong. 
However its something I am OKAY with to be able to view my tank for more hours of the day, 11am to 10-pm I have light on my tank. 

Not sure I want to reduce plant mass, I think its my favorite thing about the tank, but if the plant mass is causing a deficiency that is noticeable I will increase to compensate. 
AR Mini and mystery ludwigia, Dwarf Hairgrass, are my only plants that get algae on them, everything else is fierce and aggressive... and I have the BUM parvula hairgrass which wont even go over 1.4 inches tall if I try. 


how sensitive is Kimberley for lighting? 
I got 3" tall stems, and they are close to 27 inches from the light... 
I almost didn't order them when I found out how short they would be because I knew they would be starved starved starved for par. 












My lighting is not as good as Burr's but my Ludwigia Rubin has gotten much denser, tighter nodes, fatter leaves, since I recieved it.. 
The pigmentation has dropped off but that seems strictly lighting related if you ask me.. 
The other characteristics though are better. 
That could simply mean that my lower light allows the plant to provide its tissues with nutrients at a better rate- too much light will make some nutrients limiting and so the plant could look less vital. 
I mean... the new growth smashes the growth that was on it when I recieved it..









































Clino internodes at 12 inch above substrate with no ammonium..








Clino at 4 inch above substrate with ammonium 








Scale might be hard to determine.. but it is much denser. 
I don't have the intensity of light to produce the reds. 
And It is not height related, higher up in the tank the nodes were longer. 
I trimmed the plants to remove this variable, put the plants low in the tank, the nodes are smaller by a good 50% 
1/3 inch vs 5/8 inch atleast. 
And its not just the new growth, new growth before was still long and stretched. 
And if you are thinking its color spectrum, i'm running the kessil on full warm just incase that is a factor. 
Thats still only 5k, but i shouldn't be causing compact growth with 5k.
... L. Rubin has internodes in the 1/8th of an inch now vs 1/2 when I got it. 
Surely one kessil isn't brighter than multiple t5ho and cant induce that. 

Unless its a response to my 11 hour photo period, summer vs fall stuff, idk.

I could reduce photo period to 8 hours and prob stop all the algae yall mention, but thats not anything I'm trying to prove, thats not part of my experiment. 
If the algae is ugly, yes it is, I do apologize. 
But that doesn't derail my experiments, nor can the algae induce stunting in kimberley afaik. 
What are your weekly PPM's in NPK? 
If I am far off I would love to add more, nothing makes me happier than dosing lol!
Including Nh4 and kno3 My N is probably 50-75 percent more than most, my K is dramatically higher as well. 
I dose 12ppm a week of Po4 to prevent GSA. 
New tank water is introduced at 21ppm CA per week. 

What exactly do you mean by getting my macros right? 
What exactly is RIGHT?
Do you just mean lean my plant mass out until what "most" dose is the same as what I dose?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Sorry I might have been a bit heated in response to the "get your macros right" comment. 
50+ ppm K per week, 10ml of your Micro mix 7 days a week, 24ppm no3 from KNO3 per week and 12ppm po4 per week, Plus whatever else is in equilibrium, plus .9 PPM N per DAY from nh4. 
If Kimberley is stunted, I would have a hard time believing it was Macro related unless my lighting was insane. 
But my lighting is not insane, and the color of my plants and growth rate of my plants proves that. 
All I have to stand on is the improved density, robustness, stem thickness, and internode length. 
Algae? 
Had it before, have it now. 
100% attribute to my photo period.
I don't believe algae can stunt plant growth either if its not smothering it. 
Algae hasn't fluctuated, just like it didn't fluctuate in my smaller test tank!
In that tank I was dosing 1 TSP 3x a week in 5 GALLONS! 
My internodes on my Ludwigia were INSANE.
Will post a picture tomorrow when the light comes on. 
The higher concentration definitely makes a difference.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah that sounds like plenty of everything, maybe too much P because it can interfere with Fe and a few other micros. 5-10 ppm in the water column is probably more appropriate. But that may or may not be a current issue

Removing biomass just means cleaning things up a bit. Getting rid of ratty old growth that's doing nothing but deteriorating and leaching organics (why it has algae), blocking flow and taking up resources.

Discard a bunch of that stuff by trimming everything down, severely. It will grow right back and you'll be amazed what a good cleanup and pruning will fix. This alone can stunt/unstunt plants as easy as anything else.

You can still keep a tank full of plants but regular pruning away old ratty growth is a big part of keeping them healthy.

Thats all I meant 

Tip for the Kimberly, if the tops continue to look bad or get worse, cut them off and leave the stumps in place. It's very quick to make new side shoots, several per stump, and the new growth will come in a lot better shape.

Also in my experience too much light tends to bring on the green types of algae, not so much BBA. BBA is the result of struggling plants and/or dirty conditions. Too much light can certainly cause plants to struggle though, so in that regard it may be due to the light.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Yeah that sounds like plenty of everything, maybe too much P because it can interfere with Fe and a few other micros. 5-10 ppm in the water column is probably more appropriate. But that may or may not be a current issue
> 
> Removing biomass just means cleaning things up a bit. Getting rid of ratty old growth that's doing nothing but deteriorating and leaching organics (why it has algae), blocking flow and taking up resources.
> 
> ...


Thanks yeah that makes sense.
Most of my bba occurred after my co2 tank went empty for 3 days
I see hair algae come And go on a daily basis but I've just accepted it.
Hesitant to go back down on phosphate as I saw GSA return when I did back off.
The Kimberly looks ok imo, I might try topping it when it's closer to 10 inches though.

Hair grass aside I do heavy trim and replant fairly often except on AR mini cause it grows too slow lol.
New soil arriving soon all the hair grass is coming out, Hydrocotyle Japan staurogyne and a few others will become new fore ground.


I think I'll cut lights back one hour soon... But in no rush as most things are balanced right now

1lb ammonium sulfate is cheap on Amazon, try 1/16 to 1/8 tsp in your tank for a week u will like the results


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Have some soil coming in tomorrow so I sucked out most of the sand in the front of the tank and all the hair grass.

Did some rearranging but not really sure what I'm gonna do after I have the front open again.
Looking forward to adding Hydrocotyle Japan in the foreground and cultivating more of this s. Repens.
It grows so stinking low to the ground its kind of amazing haha.

There was a healthy layer of biofilm where the hairgrass was against the glass, the otos had a field day eating all of it!

Have to remove the rest of the sand tomorrow and add the soil and rescape again, so that'll be two big water changes back to back, and then I need to clean my filter as well. Will have to stop ammonium for a few days as the filter recharges.

I've also learned never to top Bacopa... It puts off sideshoots at the ground that crawl and look for light and then shoot up. People say it's a slow grower but it would literally take over this tank in a month if left unchecked. 

Leaning towards taking out all the blyxa, even though it does so we'll, that's part of the problem.


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## Spiffyfish (Jan 30, 2014)

I second that on the bacopa, does the same in my tank. What are you doing with yours as far as trimming?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Spiffyfish said:


> I second that on the bacopa, does the same in my tank. What are you doing with yours as far as trimming?


For bacopa I had been topping it, it looks nice and bushy but, Now I know that it sends up new green healthy shoots underground constantly I will just trim them down to the soil height and let brand new and fresh shoots replace, density should improve without me having to deal with old ratty stems that like to get algae.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Should switch to B colorata. It grows a lot slower than caroliniana and has peach tops. I can throw a few sprigs in your order Sat if you want to try it


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Should switch to B colorata. It grows a lot slower than caroliniana and has peach tops. I can throw a few sprigs in your order Sat if you want to try it


That sounds amazing!
Yeah the caroliniana is voracious!
I didn't k ow it would creep along the substrate and spread so much


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Chlorophile said:


> Most of my bba occurred after my co2 tank went empty for 3 days
> I see hair algae come And go on a daily basis but I've just accepted it.
> Hesitant to go back down on phosphate as I saw GSA return when I did back off.


I can't quite tell from your photos: what type of algae is troubling your tank?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

My U.P Aqua Shrimp Sand arrived today. 
Sucked out all of the old sand and put it and just finished rearranging. 


It is a lot greyer than my ADA Aquasoil, not nearly as dark. 
Thats okay though I guess. 
Also the bag was... a lot less than I expected so its thinner than I'd like, maybe I'll try another bag of something and put that over the top of it. 
I like this cause it has Montmorillonite.. I don't know what that is but I'm glad to have it! Apparently it has calcium.. good for shrimps. I wonder if it does anything for my GH?
It is also quite firm, didn't break down at all when I was leveling it in the tank and I poured the entire bag in and there was zero dust. That is a great thing when adding to an existing tank. 


Water parameters to come. 

I got a pH probe also and calibrated it, at 7 o clock one hour before my co2 goes off my pH was 5.2
Wow, wouldn't be surprised if the cardinals or rummy's started breeding... but for that I think i'd have to feed them more!


I'm leaving some roof for some incoming plants.. Kinda like the empty space though but i will need to SERIOUSLY figure out how to stop the BBA from forming on the substrate because that was a NIGHTMARE last time. 













































































































Pulled up both stacks of Bacopa and replanted some of it. 
Need to move the Clinopodium from infront of the Bacopa as theres zero contract between the two lol.
Got a lot of mulm everywhere... the back of the tank is nasty.. Debating sucking the top layer out and putting another 2 bags of this shrimp sand in the tank as a cap to hide it and make the color match. 

also.. BLYXA BLYXA BLYXA... so wide and bushy, even when small. 
It's gonna have to go. I don't think I can use it in a tank this size. 
Gonna have to update my for sale page to show the new quantity available haha.



Deanna said:


> I can't quite tell from your photos: what type of algae is troubling your tank?


BBA, BBA, oh and BBA.. 
Also randomly I have hydra in the tank? Never had hydra in 12 years of keeping fish. 

I've had a few other algaes here and there but easy ones to get rid of. 
The BBA I can get to stall but it hangs out for ever. 
It was on my soil, it would attach to the glass anywhere there was a spot of GSA, it was on the snails as they walked around. (My son thinks that is hilarious and calls them bearded snails or hairy snails.. he's 5)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> BBA, BBA, oh and BBA..
> Also randomly I have hydra in the tank? Never had hydra in 12 years of keeping fish.
> 
> I've had a few other algaes here and there but easy ones to get rid of.
> ...


I've got a question for you Chlorophile. You mention that you have an 11 hour photo period, which you think is the source of most of your algae problems.

Why don't you cut that down? Most successful tanks I see are usually around 8 hours or less of light. Seriously just curious as to your thinking???


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> I've got a question for you Chlorophile. You mention that you have an 11 hour photo period, which you think is the source of most of your algae problems.
> 
> Why don't you cut that down? Most successful tanks I see are usually around 8 hours or less of light. Seriously just curious as to your thinking???












HAH! Cause i'm CRAAZY. 
So heres the funny thing, I have BBA with a 7 hour photo period, and an 8. and I have less of it now with an 11. 
But my 11 is weird because it has long sunsets and sundowns, more like 8 hours of peak intensity. 
My BBA came in hard on two occasions and I guess as Burr mentioned I failed to commit to a heavy re-scape and cleaning afterwards. 
The first time was when I let my filter go way too long without cleaning. 
The second time was a few weeks ago when I ran out of co2 on a friday morning and couldn't get more til monday. And.. I should have turned the lights down but I didnt. 

I did just back one hour off the ramp down time actually though since I Just removed so many plants. 
11am 0% intensity and 0% color
1pm 100% and 0% color
5pm 100% and 50% color
8pm 100% and 0% color
9pm 0% and 0% color

Where higher color indicates more Warmth
So I have 8 hours at 100% and I have a 2 hour sunrise and a 1 hour sunset. 

I thoroughly enjoy being able to look at the tank, and I can add more points to the graph. So maybe I should change 1PM to 40% and then it would ramp up from 1PM to 5PM instead of 11 to 1
Not sure really, I know most people have good success with on and off only cycles but since I have the ability to program it I would really like to somehow make use of that.
Then I will have to reconfigure my CO2 though cause it is set up to be super high by 1pm lol. Like YELLOW


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Chlorophile said:


> BBA, BBA, oh and BBA..
> Also randomly I have hydra in the tank? Never had hydra in 12 years of keeping fish.
> 
> I've had a few other algaes here and there but easy ones to get rid of.
> ...


Since you also seem to have a little BBA and some BBA, you might want to consider what I do. It kills it - DEAD - in 4 days and, until I'm sure it's gone for a while, I repeat it weekly for a few weeks after each w/c. This chases it back into it's hole until another system disruption. Now, you won't be able to do this right away. You will need to get used to the idea and may need some psychotherapy before you actually take it in your hand and dump it in. Rather than repeat myself, here is the link to my approach, post #6:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html#post10762025

Like you, I want to see my tank all the time. I run 14 hours a day with varying PAR levels from about 50 at the substrate (14" from water surface) up to 80-90 PAR for 4 hours midday.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Deanna said:


> Since you also seem to have a little BBA and some BBA, you might want to consider what I do. It kills it - DEAD - in 4 days and, until I'm sure it's gone for a while, I repeat it weekly for a few weeks after each w/c. This chases it back into it's hole until another system disruption. Now, you won't be able to do this right away. You will need to get used to the idea and may need some psychotherapy before you actually take it in your hand and dump it in. Rather than repeat myself, here is the link to my approach, post #6:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1234042-hair-algae-consuming-moss-hc-advice.html#post10762025
> 
> Like you, I want to see my tank all the time. I run 14 hours a day with varying PAR levels from about 50 at the substrate (14" from water surface) up to 80-90 PAR for 4 hours midday.


haha I've tried a wide variety of algae nukes but kinda gave up on it as only H2o2 ever seemed to do anything but required intense and frequent dosing. I think long term it was derogatory towards whatever symbiotic microbes might populate the plant surface and prevent algae from growing on them. 
But I guess I could try to invert my photoperiod and have a small peak and a much longer ramp up.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Chlorophile said:


> haha I've tried a wide variety of algae nukes but kinda gave up on it as only H2o2 ever seemed to do anything but required intense and frequent dosing. I think long term it was derogatory towards whatever symbiotic microbes might populate the plant surface and prevent algae from growing on them.
> But I guess I could try to invert my photoperiod and have a small peak and a much longer ramp up.


It's not the photoperiod that tames my hair algae. It's the 2 ml of Metricide per gallon of tank water.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

API Algaefix knocks hair types out with a quickness, including clado. Other types not so much. It also kills shrimp


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

To be honest hair algae actually died back pretty good when dosing nh4.
In my test tank I noticed staghorn replacing it at high doses though.

Waiting for my light to turn on today so I can see how many plants floated off in the night.

Every time haha!


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

burr740 said:


> API Algaefix knocks hair types out with a quickness, including clado. Other types not so much. It also kills shrimp


I've tried Algaefix in the past. It is very effective, but it also killed some fish (don't remember the variety). 

The way it works is via a surfactant (soap) called Busan 77. It alters the surface tension of water, increasing the exchange of cell contents with the surrounding water. More water moves into the cells and, because algae cell walls are rigid, the cells literally explode.

Many recommend removing the fish when using Algaefix, but I've read that dividing the doses into smaller quantities and dosing those over a few hours also works. I never got around to trying that because I stumbled upon the glut approach that I now use.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Deanna said:


> burr740 said:
> 
> 
> > API Algaefix knocks hair types out with a quickness, including clado. Other types not so much. It also kills shrimp
> ...


Unless I find something safe that works on BBA I'll just be battling the slow and dirt fight haha.
Mostly I just need prevention now, so much substrate exposed I'll die if it gets BBA

How does metricide not kill your biofilter? That's some strong stuff for bacteria, used to kill MRSA


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Chlorophile said:


> How does metricide not kill your biofilter? That's some strong stuff for bacteria, used to kill MRSA


I can't answer that question. I suspect that it has to do with the dilution in the tank water. Metricide 14, I believe, is useful as a hospital disinfectant, like 70% IPA in water. But that is as used directly out of the bottle so, a much higher concentration. 

Maybe it does kill some of the BB, but exposure is also limited since it only lasts about 6-8 hours and the plants also suck it up. Plus, I don't use it daily, just the once per week. I have never measured an ammonia spike after using it in doses up to 2.5 ml / gal of water so, enough BB (assuming any are killed) survive to keep the N cycle going.

Just be sure to increase O2 exchange, because glut is a reducing agent.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Tested my pH off gassed. 7.1 7.2... so do I seriously have a 2 pH drop? Seems like my fishes should be dead.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

CO2 does not displace oxygen, both co-exist in solution.
I have never considered any aeration since pearling is excessive, figure water column is as saturated with O2 as much as it can take.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Maryland Guppy said:


> CO2 does not displace oxygen, both co-exist in solution.
> I have never considered any aeration since pearling is excessive, figure water column is as saturated with O2 as much as it can take.


I have a surface skimmer and a power head, surface is Crystal clear and otos and Cardinals never appear short of breath, but the rummy nose Tetras do breathe a little heavy by end of day.. normal behavior still.

Seems like an excessive amount of co2 and I've still had bba issues. 
Something seems wrong about that.


----------



## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Possibly too much flow???
Read somewhere BBA thrives in high flow but don't remember where:frown2:


----------



## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Possibly too much flow???
> Read somewhere BBA thrives in high flow but don't remember where:frown2:


Agreed. I think there is a misconception about flow. 

I used to have way too much flow in my tank. Interestingly when I removed a couple of powerheads, I saw a reduction in algae. And yes, some algae seems to flourish in high flow areas.

For me, constant gentle flow with plants lightly swaying works best. I don't think more than that really helps anything at all.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

A quick update before my plants arrive today! Can't wait to see how quickly I can kill this Rotala Wallichii, thanks @burr740

So I noticed my Ludwigia Repens is much redder on one side of the tank, I'm assuming this is because its the side the outflow and powerhead are pointed at, but I'm not sure that checks out... 
It is also the side that was less densely planted. 
Either way it would indicate its getting some extra nutrients on that side, I don't think its the light because its the tops and they've never been hidden from light. 
It's kinda subtle but you should be able to see it.









Also, still not sure what kind of Ammania I might have. 
Thought it could be gracilis but after looking at pikez journal on the barr report and seeing his various results in hard or soft water, and his pictures of a few types of ammania, I'm as confused as ever.








For reference it looks a good bit more pinky yellow in person, my phone really takes the greens up too high. 


Also my L. Rubin.. well I just don't have the lighting for it I guess, got some red veination which is nice, but the rest of the plant is just greeny green green, the lower leaves actually have more color, and that was during the ammonia dosing. 









I'm taking a step back from ammonia as I have changed some substrate, cleaned filters, did a bit of a heavy trim, and have new sensitive plants coming. As well as a stunting Kimberley. 
If I can keep the substrate BBA free since there is so much exposed right now then I will slowly reintroduce ammonia. 

I also dosed some Calcium Chloride today, just out of boredom really. Not enough to do much but I was thinking I could be low on Chloride.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Got some very nice plants in today!

Ludwigia pantanal is literally the prettiest bestest plant ever and I want like a million of it.

Rotala wallichii is amazing looking as well.

Hydrothix looks great.

Limnophilia is significantly larger than I expected.
I definitely have to think about the final positions of everything, and AR mini and lobelia Cardinalis and blyxa are looking more and more out of place.

Will post pics soon water is a little cloudy and plants are still a bit crooked from shipping


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> Got some very nice plants in today!
> 
> Ludwigia pantanal is literally the prettiest bestest plant ever and I want like a million of it.
> 
> ...


You are jumping head first down the Rabbit hole now!!:grin2:

Good luck my friend, look forward to seeing where things go from here.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Chlorophile said:
> 
> 
> > Got some very nice plants in today!
> ...


Lol!
I'm scouring journals for people's insights on these plants.
Pikez journal has been informative but I'm so torn on what to do with my KH!
Lots of his plants did better or worse in opposite KH.
I definitely wouldn't mind basing my entire parameters around making pantanal thrive it's just freaking gorgeous!
It has the kind of color I've been needing in the tank, and while I'm not sure my Kessil will keep it looking this good I atleast know it looks good under this lighting.
Sometimes I wonder when I see people's photos how much of the color is from the color of the bulbs


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> It has the kind of color I've been needing in the tank, and while I'm not sure my Kessil will keep it looking this good I atleast know it looks good under this lighting.
> Sometimes I wonder when I see people's photos how much of the color is from the color of the bulbs


No question that the color of the bulbs can affect the appearance of the plants. 

But it's more a matter of degree. It doesn't turn green into red. But can help a healthy red plant look even more spectacular.

In general higher light will bring out more color. For instance, your L. Rubin looks nice and healthy, but I am sure as it gets nearer the light, or was provided more PAR, it would turn more red very quickly.

Will be interesting to see how the Pantanal does. In my experience, it loves a lot of light, and room to breath, not crowded or shaded.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Chlorophile said:
> 
> 
> > It has the kind of color I've been needing in the tank, and while I'm not sure my Kessil will keep it looking this good I atleast know it looks good under this lighting.
> ...



I'll definitely have to give it that then.
Right now the leaves on the top inch are pointing down towards the substrate, hopefully just from shipping. 
I'd like a good 8 inch long swath of it breaking up the tank, with the hydrothix billowing up over the back of it like fog over a sunrise
Right now I've put the wallichii, pantanal and hydrothix in the middle of the tank for Max light to grow them out

I'll probably go back to just having one patch of the ludwigia SP red and one patch of the clinopodium.
Sometimes things just grow so fast I don't know what to do with it all!

I have a hoarder mentality with plants I've bought and don't wanna get rid of them incase I need them but some of them just don't look that good.
Just filled a gallon zip with blyxa hopefully I can sell.



Just did some water tests;

pH 5.9
KH 2
GH 8
Nitrate 40-80(is this even a different color lol)

Clearly my new substrate has calcium in it, and also wow my nitrates lol.
Ammonium adds up!
Will skip Kno3 on my next nitrate day and see if I it tests closer to 20-40


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hydrothrix grows fast and takes topping very well. Let it hit the surface then replant the tops, leave stumps 4"-5" long to sprout new ones. Do the same thing with Pantanal and you'll have plenty of both pretty soon.



Chlorophile said:


> Ludwigia pantanal is literally the prettiest bestest plant ever and I want like a million of it.


I thought the same thing and literally spent a couple years trying to get it to grow well. Its a big reason for the whole custom micro experiment in the first place. Very finicky plant for some, weed for others

The funny part is when it finally started to grow well it was such a fast growing weed I was like screw having this plant in the 120, too much work!! 

Though I'll probably put it back at some point.

Dont worry about the leaves pointing down. It changes itself a lot over the course of one photoperiod. As long as it's closing up tightly at night everything's OK

Edit: Also dont worry too much about KH, anything from 2 to 6 is fine, and probably higher. Just pick something and stay there. Stability is most important


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Hydrothrix grows fast and takes topping very well. Let it hit the surface then replant the tops, leave stumps 4"-5" long to sprout new ones. Do the same thing with Pantanal and you'll have plenty of both pretty soon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome, glad to hear the Hydrothix is pretty weedy cause I'd really like a big billowy backdrop of it. 
Seems like I see similarly whispy plants frequently but usually too big for my size tank. 
Would love to have a huge smoke cloud of green Hydrothix. 
A nice row of pantanal in front of that, seperated by some more robust stuff and a good bunch of Wallichii opposite of it. 
For now I'm just keeping it all central incase lighting is an issue. 
I did drop my photo period pretty dramatically. 
It went from a fairly linear ramp up ramp down with 100% in the middle to kinda a weird curve. 

Here is the awkward not right side up picutre of my new photo period. 








The blue line is the color shift, so there is just a small amount of max blue and the rest of the day is full "red"


I will need to get something for KH soon, I'm down to a 2kh in the tank but the Deionized water has a kh of 0 and I would like to bring that up a hair. If a kh 2 is good I'll go for a 2. 

The Limno Rugosa is pearling like a little beast lol. Even managed two bubbles for a little. 

















I opened things up a bit near the pantanal.. and even lowered the water temperature just incase. 
It's been 78 for the cardinals and rummys... but I have been wanting shrimp anyway so maybe I'll let them adjust and forget their optimal temps.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd increase that blue spectrum, plants need blue as well and it'll give you better colors

Put the temp in the mid-low 70s. Those fish will be fine and plants will grow better


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> I'd increase that blue spectrum, plants need blue as well and it'll give you better colors
> 
> Put the temp in the mid-low 70s. Those fish will be fine and plants will grow better


Thanks, on the Kessil full blue is 10k and quite awful.
The full red is like 5k.
I'll try putting it closer to 50% for most of the day


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

My camera does it no justice, but it looks quite nice!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Enjoying the look of things today, carefully monitoring my new occupants for signs of stunting.
My tank seemingly has the ability to kill plants even with ro water and good dosing 
Maybe my substrate is leeching whatever caused me issues before, still.


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

1 of 2 Rotala stems seems stunted. 
one of my Pantenal is also odd, new leaves are much more red and very small.. 
Limno rugosa and Hydrocotyle Japan have holes in them.. 
I am just not blessed! 









































I am not sure how come I can't grow these plants. 
At this point its down to. 

A. My light sucks
B. My substrate still has something bad in it
C. I need to add a bit more KH and change my source of Calcium and Magnesium
D. My co2 could still be poor but I have good flow and my fish are borderline suicidal at this point from my pushing it.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Rugosa looks like structural damage to me, what's eating it?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Rugosa looks like structural damage to me, what's eating it?


My rummy nose tetra's eat plants.. like they eat the tips off the Hydrocotyle and they used to eat the tips off the hair grass, but I doubt they could take those bites? 
Oto's, some tiny snails.. not sure?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah that one pantanal and wallichii is clearly not happy. Dont touch them for a week or two and the stunted ones will start making side shoots. At some just point cut the tops off but since they're brand new, let em get a few roots first before topping.

Id be willing to bet the second round of growth comes in and does better than the first. Sometimes its just a matter of adjusting. And you've made a few big changes recently so just keep doing what you're doing for a couple more weeks and see how everything goes.

Agree it looks like snails eating the rugosa. Small common snails generally cant inflict that kind of damage on a healthy leaf. But on weakened tissue they can. Probably a sign that plant isnt as happy as it could be either.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Yeah that one pantanal and wallichii is clearly not happy. Dont touch them for a week or two and the stunted ones will start making side shoots. At some just point cut the tops off but since they're brand new, let em get a few roots first before topping.
> 
> Id be willing to bet the second round of growth comes in and does better than the first. Sometimes its just a matter of adjusting. And you've made a few big changes recently so just keep doing what you're doing for a couple more weeks and see how everything goes.
> 
> Agree it looks like snails eating the rugosa. Small common snails generally cant inflict that kind of damage on a healthy leaf. But on weakened tissue they can. Probably a sign that plant isnt as happy as it could be either.


Thanks, the Rugosa actually looks super healthy everywhere that it doesn't have holes. 
My snails are teeny tiny, I'd actually be more inclined its my wacky herbivore Rummy Nose Tetras! I donno what the heck they love plants so much for. 

Here is a video of them eating plants lol. 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/PkBWPjnfptkyL0WG3


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Could be right. It does look nice and healthy


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

My rummynose used to eat my s. Repens to the bone.

So your not happy now with the Kessil? I spoke to u a while ago about having the 2 Satellite Plus Pros like you used to have. I am still thinking about swapping them out for the 180. But if I can't get high light out of one on my 18x18x18 tank then forget it.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

sevendust111 said:


> My rummynose used to eat my s. Repens to the bone.
> 
> So your not happy now with the Kessil? I spoke to u a while ago about having the 2 Satellite Plus Pros like you used to have. I am still thinking about swapping them out for the 180. But if I can't get high light out of one on my 18x18x18 tank then forget it.


I maybe AM happy with it? 
Not sure lol.
It's hard to know for sure when I'm comparing my tank to people with 4-6 T5 bulbs. 
It is definitely plenty of light for 9/10 set ups but I'm trying to push it to the limit, ya know?
If I could borrow a t5 fixture and see if that makes any difference then I'd know if I'm happy with it or not. 
I find it hard to believe 40W of LED isn't enough light when some 4 bulb fixtures are only 97w total, and the LED should be atleast 2x as efficient.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Chlorophile said:


> 1 of 2 Rotala stems seems stunted.
> one of my Pantenal is also odd, new leaves are much more red and very small..
> Limno rugosa and Hydrocotyle Japan have holes in them..
> I am just not blessed!
> ...


After about 65 species of plants growing well.
Don't talk much about the one's that didn't grow so well.
Realizing after time in this hobby one's self can't grow everything well, it could be related to so many things.
I've learned to just write some off as "Not for Me", appreciate and expand on what is growing the best.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Chlorophile said:
> 
> 
> > 1 of 2 Rotala stems seems stunted.
> ...


True, sadly the plants I like the look of are the ones I can't grow.
I need 3ft tank to make a nice low tech sand substrate tank with ferns and stuff so I can feel good about my plant growing haha.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Started adding KH booster, nutrafin brand cause it's all I could find, so KH is about 2-3 right now.

My AR mini finally has smooth leaves! Amazing.
I'm so proud haha.

Wallichi put out a side shoot so I trimmed them all today and planted the tops.

Pantanal has several side shoots but the crown is narrow and the leaves curl down in a crescent shape, fairly yellowy as well, might turn the red back up on the kessil cause it seemed to like that better.

Rugosa is a delicious snack for rummy's.. as is hydrocotyle, they're nipping all the edges off little buggers, otherwise the rugosa has such amazing vibrancy and texture it's kind of amazing. 
I'd like to set up a 3ft iwagumi with the entire background undulating rugosa to look like a deciduous oak Forest or something

Ludwigia red is really really thriving right now as well, it's color is such a deep dark red, if I had some more pop in my lighting I think it could give anyone's a run for the money.

Algae - green spot green spot green spot, I cannot for the life of me get this dialed in.
It goes away with weekly P around 10-12 ppm but as soon as I go under 10 it's back with a vengeance.
I had been trying to lower P in case it was agonistic on other things, and cause some had mentioned high P not playing nicely for wallichi and pantanal.
Curious how pH plays into this since my P dosing is higher than most and my pH is very low now.
Maybe KH booster will let me use a little less P.

I can only assume my P uptake is higher or is being bound up somehow, otherwise why do I need so much to prevent GSA.

I also ordered an ista co2 reactor I'll try for a little as my glass diffuser loses its fine mist within a week or two of cleaning.

Will post some pics soon, waiting for my water to clear up from equilibrium!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Got the new co2 reactor running

PH at lights on - 6.6
Off gassed pH - 7.9
Validity of these numbers in question as the k2co3 has been doing wacky stuff to my pH


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Did a big trim and rearranged some stuff, camera a still sucks tho.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Been a while, swapped substrate and quite a few plants, swapped lights too since the last post.

Here's a video I made of my fish and tank!
https://youtu.be/lfC3pKcq3uI


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Nice video! From what I can see the tank is looking good.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking good!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Plants are doing really well right now except Hydrothrix Gardneri and Wallichii. 
Hydrothrix might be recovering, not sure what its deal was.. I think it was in shock from me dropping P levels so hard and fast. 
Wallichii not so much. 


























The Bacopa Colorata needs to move, but I trimmed off all the older growth and split all the sideshoots off and I'm cultivating them in the foreground for now. 
I will replace them with the Pogostemon Kimberley once it has stabilized, and use it in a triangular shape to break up the Ludiwiga Sp Red and Repens X Arcuata. 

I might put the Rotala Indica where the P. Kimberley is, or try and get a little swath of something that carpets and stays bright green to contrast the (now) burnt umber of the Blyxa Japonica

I have no plants for the back right. 
I can't really grow Limno Rugosa anymore as my rummies EAT IT TO DEATH lol. Take big ol bites out of it and then the weakened leaves get algae. 
If anyone has suggestions for the back right corner let me know, 
It needs to contrast with the Blyxa in front and I'll also try and leave room for the Pantanal on the left. 
Alternatively I could move Hydrothrix Gardneri to the right corner. 

I'm interested in trying Tonina... or Bacopa Salzmani.. Purple sounds cool.

edit: actually.. I'd really like to try Rotala Macranda again.. any variety lol. 
Super struggled with it before.. Maybe I'm magical now.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

So I've had issues with seoop leaves and holes in Kimberley.
I've started adding k2so4 3x a week and pretty much immediately saw both symptoms go away.
The holes in Kimberley we're getting bad and would show up as quick as the new growth could come out.
Pretty much right away the new growth started to come out nice again.

Also, my blyxa is flowering!
I counted at least 10 Little flower stalks, they haven't done anything yet but I noticed some thick skinny leaves on it and upon closer inspection it is definitely a flower stalk.

Gonna edit this post with pictures in a second.

Edit: super hard to post pictures from my phone so here's a link to the imgur album containing said images!

Blyxa Japonica flower stalks https://imgur.com/gallery/zmBUj


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Congratulations on the flowers! That's always exciting.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Congrats on the flowering Blyxa! I used to have that plant once - they died.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Immortal1 said:


> Congrats on the flowering Blyxa! I used to have that plant once - they died.


It's such a beast in this tank, I clip out sideshoots weekly. 
Never seen it flower before nor have I seen it mentioned so I'm curious what it might look like. Google showed white flowers? 
Exciting!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Haven't been able to figure out the holes in Pogostemon Kimberley. 
I thought it was low traces but I've had it come or go independent of trace dosing now. 
I upped my P and K for a week and it seemed to go away, but then the next week with the same slightly higher P and K dosing, it came back. 
It seems like whatever causes it occurs during leaf formation because the leaves come out with small holes that spread. 
If I get 3 or 4 sets of healthy leaves without holes, they never develop holes even when a new set of leaves comes out with holes. 

I've noticed deeper red centers when I dose some extra MG, and the holes seem lessened.. but I can't prove thats the solution yet. 
I really don't know!


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## SingAlongWithTsing (Jun 11, 2015)

Chlorophile said:


> Haven't been able to figure out the holes in Pogostemon Kimberley.
> I thought it was low traces but I've had it come or go independent of trace dosing now.
> I upped my P and K for a week and it seemed to go away, but then the next week with the same slightly higher P and K dosing, it came back.
> It seems like whatever causes it occurs during leaf formation because the leaves come out with small holes that spread.
> ...


I've been getting random holes in Anubias and Ludwigia Perunesis and Ludwigia Repens usually the 2nd set of leaves and lower too.

have you tried dosing less micros yet? i think i might go that route, think i might cut back from 6x a week to 3x. this is assuming higher micros will drive up the demand for higher macros though. in my case i can't increase macros anymore, I've been doing a weekly total of 40 ppm of K the last 2? weeks, and it's curling the hell out of Perunesis lmao


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Alright, I need some change. 
These plants are tricky, I've got a LOT of light on here now and it's really doing wonders for everything but Some of these are too aggressive with how lateral they grow.. 
In fact all my background plants just widen and widen and widen and bury my midground. 

Recommendations?

side note: the best thing I ever did for my tank was get rid of my drop checker. 
It was always yellow, i am not color blind but it was preventing me from doing the right thing - CRANK THAT Co2 BABY!
I know get a 2 pH drop by lights on and it tapes off to a 1.5 ph drop by the end of the day as the plants get wild and crazy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> Recommendations?


Get a bigger tank!:wink2:

In the meantime, more trimming, pruning, controlling mass. 

And good to see you back.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Get a bigger tank!:wink2:
> 
> In the meantime, more trimming, pruning, controlling mass.
> 
> And good to see you back.


Haha a bigger tank would be great, i'd need a new wife too though! lol

Are there any plants in your tank that grow slow despite the high light? 
I will probably keep Limnophilia Rugosa cause its gorgeous, but the Clinopodium.. 
I've got enough light that it grows flat on the substrate and sends up shoots. like what in the world! 

I'd prefer something slower, but if Im gonna trim weekly i might as well get a plant that I can hedge or something so the trimming is a little easier lol.


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## pauld738 (Jan 4, 2019)

Nice tank!

What light did you end up going with? And what are the differences that you can see from the kessil?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looking good man! I was beginning to think you'd retired, rode off into the sunset. Glad to see the tank is still kickin


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Great looking tank- nice and clean!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Looking good man! I was beginning to think you'd retired, rode off into the sunset. Glad to see the tank is still kickin


Lol, well I have two kids now and I'm very busy but I've been keeping it going.
I also started a little iwagumi low tech but its pretty slow going without co2 and I have all the wrong plants for it, need crypts and buce I guess


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Got some new plants from Burr, thank you!

Cut out some of the hairgrass, kind of looks like a lawn going into a flower bed now, kinda nice I guess. 
What do you guys think? 

After the first day I swapped the P. Kimberley and Clinopodium as my background had zero contrast. 
Now the Kimberley blends in with the Ludwigia Red and the Clino blends in with the Rugosa behind it, but over all I think its a little better. 

My foreground has some nice contrast though, between the hairgrass, blyxa, Red Downoi, AR Mini, Hydrocotyle Japan and Crypt Undulata... 
I also have Cyperus Helferi and Sao Paulo in the foreground right now growing out. 

























I think I need some more variation for the background. Limnophilia Rugosa is very aggressive grower but I like to use it where the filter is as it doesn't clog the inlet and doesn't get blown around too much. 
Clinopodium might be the eventual culprit, maybe replaced with something else wispy or dare I try a rotala again lol.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

My lfs had what I believe to be true SAE but they were marketed as flying fox. 
I think they call them this to avoid the confusion and negative connotation the Chinese algae eater has earned.

Let me know what you think these are..


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

These fish are so stinking cute.
IDK if I should get one more, not sure what the right amount is for a 33 gal.

They cleaned all the dustiness off the hydrothrix Gardneri for me which might be a really good thing cause this plant has collected some algae in the past for me.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

They are SAE in my eyes.
They don't stay small, I'm sure you know this but mine reached 6 inches, so a decent sized fish!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Hyptis Lorentziana kinda curling down. 
Picked up a random tissue culture from my LFS that was not labeled - cant tell what it is but the new growth kinda looks like Rotala Green.. but I looked at emersed growth for it and its just like normal Rotundifolia, the lower half of this is all emersed and it looks like... idk spiky kinda.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Nothing really major changing - Really curious what this mystery plant is?! 
Its starting to look quite cool. 

My needle valve has started fluctuating BPS a little - kinda annoying. 










































Downoi Red isn't doing much redness yet but thats ok









My Crypt Undulata looks wonderful!










And here is the MYSTERY PLANT! 
WHAT IS THIS?
Cant think of anything really, reminds me of rotala green but it has too many leaves!









Persicaria showing some kind of Ca deficiency - I think I need to incorporate 2 smaller water changes / week somehow to keep the Ca up - the GH KH boosters never did work for me but water changes always makes this go away. 









Same thing with the Hyptis Loretnziana















































And heres a bonus shot of my Shrimp in the Low Tech Iwagumi


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Alright - I'm about a week away from rearranging some things. 

The left side is nice and full, but lacks contrast. 

Hydrothrix Gardneri growing better for me than it ever did before, splitting like mad. 

















Hyptis Lorentziana is getting some serious color, WOW. 









My mystery plant is Rotala Nanjenshan! 
Excited for this to grow out - not sure if it will end up creeping when it reaches half tank height or if it will stay tall. 
Could be a nice midground or background. 
Thinking of swooping it diagonally from the back corner and having the Colorata or Sao Paulo poke up behind it. 









Full Tank Shot - hairgrass is gonna go, gets too tall and I don't like the way it looks after you trim it. Might try to keep just a tiny bit of it somewhere but I'm not so sure. 

Pogostemon Kimberley is not doing nice as a background plant - I like it better as a midground hedge, it seems like when it gets in the higher light region is starts stunting and I get holes in the leaves! 











I need to start looking at my tank through the side more, so much more depth. 
This tank is 24x18x18 and i don't feel like I use the depth properly, it looks very flat. 
But everytime I look through the side I think wow look at all those beautiful plants!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn that Hyptis is PURPLE, wow!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

burr740 said:


> Damn that Hyptis is PURPLE, wow!


+1.

Mine is pink/red.

Have never seen the purple. Very cool look.

What do you think is the secret??


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Greggz said:


> +1.
> Mine is pink/red.
> Have never seen the purple. Very cool look.
> What do you think is the secret??



No idea, some parameter or another. It can change colors really fast though, even over the course of one day.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Greggz said:


> +1.
> 
> Mine is pink/red.
> 
> ...





burr740 said:


> No idea, some parameter or another. It can change colors really fast though, even over the course of one day.


Yeah when I first got it it didn't have much color, it was yellow and green and pink, but I figured that would be normal after a few days in the dark. 
I did a waterchange on Friday and on Saturday I noticed the color went through the roof!

And I don't even have any purple bulbs to accentuate the color!


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Nice!

I think your mystery plant may be Rotala Wayanad.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Hmm it might be that! I think its Rotala Nanenjshan but i'm not sure yet its still growing out. 

Unfortunately yesterday I noticed it's showing some deformed leaves - twisted left and right, will probably result in loss of the stem tip and I'll get side shoots, algae on the old growth etc - 
AKA Typical Rotala for me. Maybe I'll donate it to someone with a good tank so they can grow it out and see what it actually is! 

My Persicaria Sau Paulo is doing some screwy stuff too. 

*sigh* 

I did a 33% wc yesterday and a 20% today , hoping it will turn around.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I rearranged some plants - I think I solved the primary "thin" areas. 

Still not sure what to do with the far right side of the tank, I put the Sao Paulo there but its too big to be wedged into the corner. 

My Hydrothrix Gardneri is prospering but also it's bent over from the flow - tried to protect it with the Bacopa but it's not working excellently. 

Not really happy with the look of the Limno Rugosa, I could make a smaller grouping of it, possibly where I have the Hyptis right now? 
The hyptis grows super fast, kinda lanky and then gets really purple when it hits half tank height. 
I just topped it yesterday cause I noticed it has tons of sideshoots getting ready. 









































































https://i.imgur.com/LfIhwup.jpg

is 19 species too much? lol. 
I may end up losing the Nanjeshan, it stunts like a typical rotala for me - prob gonna get ratty soon. 

I want to add some Erios lmao.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Little Update - right side of tank lookin good, left side not so much - not sure how to tie the foreground into the background very well. 

Co2 is rockin.. came home today at 6.33pH, dosed my 1/32 tsp Ammonium Sulfate right as the sun came in through a side window and lit up the tank - it landed right on the HC which immediately started pearling like crazy. 

REALLY want to get a PAR meter - Algae wise everything is so frickin healthy right now (GSA even taking a slight retreat lately.. 2x a month glass cleaning?) I'd love to see if I can push it some more. 

HOWEVER - I can't solve my mystery rotala stunting and I do have holes in the leaves of Pogostemon K. 
I also have pale veins on the Stauro Repens but I just started adding Mg last waterchange so hopefully that can be remedied. 

Anyway, ON TO THE PICS. 
Nothing special just a FTS and some closeups.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

One week report on low dose nh4.
AR mini likes this. New leaves are much Pinker.

















Ludwigia super red also much better color. 


Hyptis is less purple but could be due to less light after last trim. 









Stauro doesn't seem to like it, but could be other factors. Sort of pale and leaf deformity here an there.



























Hydrothrix is obviously a weed and grows super bushy, probably growing faster but who knows


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Did a W/C and trim right after this.. Kinda made some things better and some things worse!


























I lost the "streets" effect I had going with the stem plants
But I made the Rugosa look much better, in fact the camera doesn't do it justice - the baby rugosa stems are so tightly wrapped around the AR Mini it looks wonderful in person - but my background is flatter now. 

Alas, the challenges of dutch amaze me.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Super quick update since I rearranged - everything is looking great. 










Unfortunately my intake/powerhead is shading out the Bacopa Colorata and Sao Paulo. Colorata losing some color. 

Hydrothrix is a beautiful wonderful amazing weed! I had to readjust my powerhead slightly because it was becoming absolutely coated in co2 bubbles and I noticed my fish were breathing a little heavy.. Basically it became and in-tank co2 reactor lol. 

Something I find strange, and maybe I can fix this with a zip tie or something.. 
The Nymphoides Taiwan new stems grow flat to the substrate and poke out weird place.. I have one poking up between the Rotala and Pogo Kimberley, and another poking up literally under the Hyptis. 
None of it is growing more than a few inches tall lol. 










Maybe it wants more light and thinks this is the right way to get it? It has a few inches around it with no plants shading it so it shouldn't need to creep. 
The AR Mini is getting some nice color, and I even have the Ludwigia SP Red ( is it really called Ludwigia Palustris?) getting a deeper tone. 

I will have to change my post waterchange routine though because I've noticed a trend. 

Saturday W/C dose 1/32 tsp NH4
Sunday dose 1/32 tsp NH4 half dose of Thrive +
Monday 1/32 NH4 Half dose thrive+
Tuesday 1/32 NH4
Wednesday full dose Thrive+

BY or ON wednesday I notice holes in the Pogostemon Kimberley leaves again, then all the growth until the next WED looks normal again. 
I think its a delayed reaction from the leaning out that I'm getting from no dose on Saturday and then two half doses. 

I would do a full dose after W/C but Burr freaked me out talkin bout heavy metals lol.

Or if I was fairly certain this was lack of K I could try adding some K after WC to see if that holds the tank over for a few days. 

I occasionally see holes in the Hydrocotyle Japan but the rummy nose tetras like to eat it. 

Also the Staurogyne in the front right corner is coming out soon - it just doesn't do well in my tank anymore, always has pail veins and grows way too short. 
it's shorter than my HC is..


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Update: 
Recently upped NH4 to 1/8TSP per day, so far no ill effects. 

I only have grown Hydrothrix Gardneri once before, but it stunted, the leaves went corkscrew and got covered in algae. 

It is doing fricken great right now - I've got branching on branching on branching lol. 

Of course i will need to trim it this week. 

I pulled the "Taiwan" leaves up cause they were growing flat, looks much better now. 

Hyptis is picky still, dark spots on older leaves, some leaf curling. 

I want a plant to go behind the B Colorata with a contrasting color and shape and move the Sao Paulo. 

Stauro still needs to get outta here, and the HC is slowly taking off. 

I love the way my little clump of Hydrocotyle Japan is doing, its staying so round idk why, but it doesn't contrast great with the Limno Rugosa too well.. 









@burr740 Do you have any tips for trimming the Hydrothrix? 
Once you take it out of water its so hard to see where it branches, looks like a wet cat lol. 
I wasn't sure if this was one you should just replant the tops or if you cut it and let the bottoms regrow..


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Chlorophile said:


> Very lovely plants/scaping work!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Hydrothrix doesnt care what you do to it. You can cut/replant the tops, or to make more leave a few stumps in place to sprout new ones.

Tank looks nice!


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

burr740 said:


> Hydrothrix doesnt care what you do to it. You can cut/replant the tops, or to make more leave a few stumps in place to sprout new ones.
> 
> Tank looks nice!


Thank you!
I started taking a lot more care in how I re-plant stuff, ascending heights, curving my plantings around other stuff (like the Limno Rugosa curves around the AR Mini in a nice way) and I think It's getting a lot more depth now. 
I have 2 or 3 things I want to fix and I think I'll be really happy with it. 

Back left and Back Right both need thicker denser plants with more texture. 
If I had the courage I'd try Wallichi again but I know it won't make it. 
Ammania Senegalensis I think is another in the category of "does not survive" and Ludwigia Pantenal or Cuba.. 

Something needle leafed but not as fine as the Hydrothrix and with more color to contrast all the green. That would really set it off!

Foreground only needs a few tweaks.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah the 'scape' itself has come a long way. As you said just a few tweaks here and there...


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Chlorophile said:


> Something needle leafed but not as fine as the Hydrothrix and with more color to contrast all the green. That would really set it off!
> 
> 
> 
> Foreground only needs a few tweaks.



Coming together very nicely!

How about something tall with a similar shape as a Val. Maybe Echinodorus bolivianus?

Also is the plant behind S. repens the mystery Rotala... if so it’s looking more like Rotala vietnam which is pretty much a variant of R. wallichi... definately a stem plant prone to driving me crazy... grows well for a while then bam turns to ..... well you know. 

What brand light fixture do you have over your tank?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Chlorophile said:


> If I had the courage I'd try Wallichii again but I know it won't make it.


 What is your Mg ppm?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

vvDO said:


> Coming together very nicely!
> 
> How about something tall with a similar shape as a Val. Maybe Echinodorus bolivianus?
> 
> ...


It is a Hydroponic Fixture -Quad T5 made by Hydroplanet - Amazon Special
Running one of the 6500K that came with it as well as a Spectralux 3000k, a powerveg 633 and a 15000K Red Sea Reef. 
Color is very neutral but maybe lacks a little pop - a purple or a flora type in replace of the 3000K might help there. 

I definitely think the mystery plant is some kind of Wallichi 
The leaves are quite thin.. After 2 weeks of daily NH4 I actually noticed it's recovering slightly. 
I think the extra Steroids the plants are getting is leaning out whatever the Wallichi hates, or alternatively it can handle more of something when it has more N available to it. 



Edward said:


> What is your Mg ppm?


I think I am 55ppm Ca and 7 ppm Mg from the tap. 
I add 2 TSP Epsom Salts every waterchange so that would make it.. 15ppm?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Peculiar observation time!

No changes in dosing, still on the NH4. 

Over the last two days I noticed Bacopa Colorata finally taking on some color, you may be able to see in my last photos it was more like a unripe banana. 

It's not light related cause even the lower stems are taking on the same coloration, and if anything they are being seriously shaded out by the Hydrothrix, which I'm trimming tonight when i do my WC


















So the only two things I can think of that are different are 
A. The Hydrothrix is massive right now, probably hogging a lot of everything. 
B. I had to move powerhead - It used to be on the back glass pointing at the co2 but it was blowing all the stems over. 
Now its right above the co2 and it catches some bubbles and blows them around the tank but not nearly as much. 

Tested my co2 drop today and my offgassed from last WC is 8.1, and at lights on I'm only at a .9 co2 drop where before it was typically closer to a 1.4, eventual peak over 1.6
That may not be from the powerhead, it might be from all the plant mass but i'm not 100% sure. 

Anyway, not sure what that really means but its kinda cool. 

Mystery plant still sucks lol


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Did my trim today - rearranged a few things. 

Some better some worse. 

Trying to figure out where Nymphoides Taiwan should live - i put it in the background but it's not great there. 

And the Hyptis Lorentziana doesn't like me at all - I'm trying to get it taller to see if it just needs more light but so far it's ratty, loses leaves, gets dark spots on the leafs, just not pretty. 

Obviously cut the Hydrothrix waaay back - over 50 stems to sell lol. 

Removed all but 3 stems of the Myster Rotala

Put the Hydrocotyle Japan where the mystery rotala was and extended the AR Mini out to the left a little. 

Moved the Cyperus Helfiri infront of the Hydrocotyle to give a little pop right there. 

Cut the Clinopodium way down and moved it behind the Ludwigia Red.. still too short to see but it'll shoot up quick. 

Moved Sao Paulo as well...


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Don't feel bad, I am trimming this eve and have wrinkled hands @ the moment! >


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I forgot to dose NH4 for 3 days as I'v been a little busy/stressed
What do I notice? 
Bacopa Colorata starting to stunt at the tips again. 
I went weeks without losing a single stem. 
It's obvious now that on this plant atleast it was low N causing the stunted tips. 
Possibly other plants I had this issue with were also low N. 
Dosed the NH4 back again as soon as I noticed cause I couldn't think what would cause this plant to go south again after 2 weeks of perfect zero stunting.

Sadly nothing I do helps the Rotala so I pulled it out. 
Gonna just let things ride for a little until I run out of Thrive + and then determine what I want to do dosing wise.


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