# Algae outburst disaster. Please help.



## redmary51 (Mar 17, 2011)

check out the sticky on using Excel for BBA


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## flowmsp (Feb 6, 2010)

I like this site for algae help. http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/algae.htm
With that much BBA i would almost suggest pulling all plants and H202 dip the ones that are salvageable and toss the ones that arent.


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## Ahura-sama (Dec 7, 2009)

Treat it w/ Hydrogen Peroxide. Remove all critters first. Get yourself a syringe and H2O2, lots of. Costco for a pack of 2 large size.

Turn on light or at the start of the day and give a good hr or two of light (photosynthesis).
After that turn off the filter and any powerhead.
Draw some H2O2 and then just squirt it onto the BBA, generously and indiscriminately. Do it to ALL of them.
In minutes they should begin to pearl more than normal. Leave the tank alone after that for 1-3 hrs.
Do a 15-30% water change depend on how much H2O2 used.


Note: H2O2 will burn away HC. I used undiluted H2O2 and can confirm this, but I hate BBA more. Anubias will be fine w/ the solution out of the bottle.

Also that fast growing thing is hornwort


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Oh, people! We appriciate your help a log!

First of all, thank you for clearly identifying the thing we are dealing with. I was not sure.
Our tank does not have any CO2 injection system and the light is relatively low. Well, when the sum does not shine on it 
But not the problem seems more clear to me. We do have extra light now (a lot more than before because of the sun) + bad bad bad soil (basically no soil) + low fish count = almost no nutrients + extra light. In this situation something bad will happen and it did happen.

However, Jame's plantek tank site states for BBS: "In a high light tank it is an indication of low or fluctuating CO2 levels or not enough water circulation around the plants. In a low light tank it is often due to changing CO2 levels."

I don't understand how we can have CO2 fluctuating? And the water circulation is very good, the external pump (tetratec EX 700) is pumping enough water to move every corner there.

I also have read on this site in articles that i should check phosphates. I will do it soon and report.


Excel is not available in my area, so we will try H2O2 approach.

As for H2O2 treatment. Can you give some exact number. Syringe, packs.. is it all uncertain. They all are different. How many ml per liter of water and in what concentration of H2O2? 



> Draw some H2O2 and then just squirt it onto the BBA,


Onto the BBA? Is it everywhere! Maybe just squirt into the water all over the tank?



> Note: H2O2 will burn away HC. I used undiluted H2O2 and can confirm this, but I hate BBA more.


Umm. what is HC? Hair algae? You mean the green thing i mentioned? Well, it is not the main problem, it can be fixed with blocking sun from the tank. Does H2O2 help with BBA? I kinda don't understand what you said here.



Thanks for the plant name. Does it really help with cleaning water from something?


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## redmary51 (Mar 17, 2011)

flowmsp said:


> I like this site for algae help. http://www.jsctech.co.uk/theplantedtank/algae.htm
> With that much BBA i would almost suggest pulling all plants and H202 dip the ones that are salvageable and toss the ones that arent.


I have read on here before about dipping plants. What is the "recipe" for dipping? How much H202 per gallon?


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## larams67 (Jan 24, 2006)

If I follow your post correctly your saying you put some fert tabs under a plants roots but there is no substrate in the tank?

If so that combined with direct sunlight might be your cause. I think not having the substrate allowed the fertilizers to get directly into the water column.

Keep in mind I'm a noob and I'm just taking a guess.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

larams67 said:


> If I follow your post correctly your saying you put some fert tabs under a plants roots but there is no substrate in the tank?
> 
> If so that combined with direct sunlight might be your cause. I think not having the substrate allowed the fertilizers to get directly into the water column.
> 
> Keep in mind I'm a noob and I'm just taking a guess.


Um.. sorry. Probably my bad wording. The substrate is there. It is plain basalt. There is no nutritionally reach soil/substrate, whatever you call it.


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## Ahura-sama (Dec 7, 2009)

> As for H2O2 treatment. Can you give some exact number. Syringe, packs.. is it all uncertain. They all are different. How many ml per liter of water and in what concentration of H2O2?
> 
> Onto the BBA? Is it everywhere! Maybe just squirt into the water all over the tank?
> 
> ...


People will suggest 1 part H2O2 and 2 part of water, but I say just do it straight out of the bottle. If the H2O2 is too diluted, the BBA will just get burn a bit but then come right back.

A syringe is a syringe (no needle). Get 1 cause you dont need 2. You draw the H2O2 and then point it right on top of the BBA and squirt some H2O2 onto them. If the BBA are everywhere, then take your time. You want the H2O2 to contact the BBA to burn them.

If you dont know what HC is then you dont have to worry about it. HC is Dawrf Baby Tears, a carpet plant.

That green plant is just a plant. It doesnt really clean anything. Well, it'll take in some nutrient to grow.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Okay, i took two anubias plants from the small quarantine tank. One i treated with H2O2 in a separate 4L tank and left there, another threated with bleach deluted 1:19 and left in a jar after rinsing. 
After 2 hours no noticeable changes are seen. Maybe (just maybe) BBA treated with H2O2 became softer and less attached and BBA treated with bleach became greener. 
Now we wait to see what will happen in next 24 hours.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Artemm, I don't know what concentration H2O2 you have available in Russia, but in the US we generally are using 3% (by weight, I believe,) just so you know.

For those who want to treat a small area with H2O2, they use a syringe and apply small amounts (0.25 mL per liter of tank) with the filter/pumps turned off. Gently squirt the peroxide onto the area with a syringe and wait 30 minutes. Do a 25% water change, turn the filter on, and the treated algae should turn pink and die. Be sure to use fresh H2O2, as it does break down fairly rapidly in the bottle.

I don't have any idea how long to dip your plants in H2O2 to have an effect. Bleach is usually 1 minute. 

The real trick is getting the mess under control in the first place. If you have plants that are growing fairly rapidly, they'll tend to use up the available CO2 and nutrients in the tank that the algae need to grow and your problem will disappear with time. It sounds like you plan to set up a much more plant friendly tank this time around, and you really ought to see some benefit from that. 

If your existing plants are still coated in algae once you're ready to begin again, it might be easier just to pitch them and start fresh. There's not much sense in adding a problem to the tank unless you've got a good reason to keep the plant it's attached to.

In any case, good luck!


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Luckily for us all, medical things are standard all over the world. There are some international medical organization to set those. So, it is 3% H2O2 here.

Since i treated one plant separatelly as an experiment i did not have to warry about filter and light. I used about 5ml per 4L tank with that separate plant. So, it is over 1ml per L.
Pretty high dosage, i am sure teh fish would be killed if i did it in the tank.
BBA bubbled like crazy after that and the whole small tank was and is filled with oxigen bubbles. So, my H2O2 is alright and fresh.
However, 12 houes passed already but i see not reddish pinkish color change in BBA. I have read some reports that in some cases it does not turn pink. I will wait more.

As for the new plant. Buying such tons of anubias of such size will cost us a fortune, so, i would be glad to salvage at least half of them from BBA. Also, there is no garantee that there will be no bba hidden on the newly bought plants.

You mentioned CO2. Well, we are not planning to use CO2 injection system of any time in the new tank. It just need too much attention and if misused can cause tons of problems. We'd like to go more natural way. Most of the plants are slow growers, so i am not sure they can outcompete the algae for resources or can they? It is still not clear for me how the balance will work out there. The soil will be pretty good and rich in nutirients. I don't want to use T5 light anymore and maybe switch temprarily for usual MR16 OSRAM halogen lamps and eventually switch to led lights (it will have to wait for now, because it costs a fortune too, but i DIY it). So, if i put too much light w/o co2 will it hurt the plants and promote bba growth? On the other hand do algae really use CO2 for growth?


Here is one interesting thing. As i told, my wife put all the anubias from the 100L tank to a small 20L one, so, they are piled on on another there with one halogen 35W lamp above. I took two plants from the top from that tank and what i saw is that on the bottom the plants are pretty much clean of BBA, just some little dots (0.5-1mm in size). Can anyone make anything out of this fact?


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I was just talking about the CO2 that is dissolved in the water from the air.  With live plants in a tank and no CO2 injection, the water is generally lower in CO2 concentration than it would be without the plants, and the plants and algae are fighting for what there is to be had.

It could be that the plants on the bottom are barely receiving light at all, so the algae just can't grow. Just a wild guess though.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Well, meanwhile i did some tests:

NH4 < 0.5 mg/l (0.5 is the lowest color on the scale and the result is below it)
ph = 8
NH3 is 0.03 mg/l (calculated from no4 and ph)
po4 - undetected

As i have read when PH>7 NH3 appears and NH4 appear when PH<7. But, apparent i don't have any of them.
And as i have in some other place, NH4 is used by plants while NH3 is useless. Is this right?
I doubt i can lower the ph to 7 or below, because it is what i have in the tap. The hussle of maintaing
ph different from the tap water is crazy and eventually ph is just unstable.

Sorry, i don't have nitrate/nitrite test right now.

Can anyone give any comments on these?


BBA progress. 24 hours passed
1) Chlorine treated - no effect, BBA became a bit greener, anubias became yellowish and damagers, BBA still stick srongly and no change in texture. I will not repeat the chlorine treatment.
2) H2O2 treated - BBA became a bit greener, comes of from the leaves a lot easer, no effect on the plant. I repeated treatment with H2O2.

Let's wait for another 24 hours.


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

*Excel Substitute: Glutaraldehyde*

FYI, the active ingredient in Excel seems to be a common chemical used in industry for cleaning/disinfection purposes. It is called glutaraldehyde. I bet you can get this where you are from. Gollow the links below for more reading than you may be interested in :icon_wink

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/general-aquarium-plants-discussions/75088-metricide-14-vs-seachem-excel.html


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/74784-making-excel.html


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/south-western-ohio-aquatic-plant-enthusiasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel.html

http://www.dealmed.com/blog?search=metricide

Good luck! I have found that Hydrogen Peroxide works, you just have to be consistent with it. Apply it directly on the source.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Thank you for the chemistry direction! It does seems greate and many people seem to get greate results with it and it is available here.

However, as i see
SeaChem Flourish Excel has polycycloglutaracetal - a polymerized isomer of glutaraldehyde.
While thing like Cidex (http://www.civco.com/disinfectant/cidex/) has plain glutaraldehyde. 
Cidex does works as algae killed. It was tested by many now. However, i am wondering 
if it is also a good source of bioavailable carbon for the planе?


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Hello again!

So, 48 hours passed now. I remind, that i have one anubias in a small tank (2L) and treat it every day with 5ml of H2O2. It does not receive any direct light from any source (it is in a shady place with just ambient light).
After 48 hours the algae is still there. It does come off easily if pinched but it cannot be shaken away. The color of algae is green.

Here is the macro of a small piece of this algae.
http://www.artem.ru/aqua/1/macro1.jpg

I have read somewhere that BBA is RED algae. Well, i don't see anything red about it. Mine is apparently very green.

I ordered Cidex and will start a new experiment with glutaraldehyde treament and black-out when i get it.

I treated the anubias again with H2O2. Will report progress tomorrow.


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## farrenator (May 11, 2011)

If I remember correctly (it has been a while since I read those threads) it works as a source, but I cannot guarantee that since I have persoanlly not used it. But seeing that you ordered some you should be able to tell us!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

artemm said:


> Hello again!
> 
> So, 48 hours passed now. I remind, that i have one anubias in a small tank (2L) and treat it every day with 5ml of H2O2. It does not receive any direct light from any source (it is in a shady place with just ambient light).
> After 48 hours the algae is still there. It does come off easily if pinched but it cannot be shaken away. The color of algae is green.
> ...


Red algae is masked by some other pigments, it's a red alga. If you bleach the algae, you will see the red pigment under the others that are oxidized by the chlorine.

As you seem worried about CO2 gas and want to proceed using non CO2 methods, it might be of use to try a few different methods more specific to your management goal.

You can use the Glut(Excel, "Easy Carbo" in Western Europe) Cidex generic dental supplies etc.........in addition.

PO4 does not cause this or any other algae. This is true in both non CO2 and CO2 enriched aquariums. I've falsified this myth for more than 15 years. I have about 3ppm of PO4 in my non CO2 planted tank and add 5ppm 3x a week in my CO2 enriched aquariums.

If PO4 causes algae or any sort, why have I been unable to induce algae?
It has to be some other cause, but not PO4. These are results, there's no debate about this. It is ........what it is.

Some old books and articles still suggest PO4 is a cause of algae.
These are about 15 years out of date, but a few folks pop up every now and then saying this.

I know a few Russian and ex pats, I can can put you in contact if you prefer to converse in Russian. They should be able to help you a fair amount and source some of the products.

30 years ago, finding a UV sterilizer in the USSR was quite a challenge, one friend ended up with a 6ft long monster since it was the only one available in his region.

In English:
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2817-Non-CO2-methods

Excel dosing
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2

EI in Russian pdf download, but not applicable to your goal.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2250-EI-Russian

Sorry, I have not done translations for every article

One main tenant is not doing water changes with a non CO2 method.
I also encourage you to try rich sediments, like clay loams and soils. These are quite good for non CO2 and CO2 enriched aquariums and act together with water column fertilizers.

This is not about killing algae or worrying about algae, it is much much more about growing and focusing on plant needs. With non CO2 methods, the rates of growth are much slower. So dosing is much less an issue, good light and avoiding water changes, some floating or emergent plants will help. 

Hope this helps


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

artemm said:


> Hello again!
> 
> So, 48 hours passed now. I remind, that i have one anubias in a small tank (2L) and treat it every day with 5ml of H2O2. It does not receive any direct light from any source (it is in a shady place with just ambient light).
> After 48 hours the algae is still there. It does come off easily if pinched but it cannot be shaken away. The color of algae is green.
> ...


This is Cladophora, it is a sign the tank is doing well if it is a non CO2 aquarium. You might not like it:icon_coolI cultivate it in my non CO2 tank and the shrimp love to pick on it.

Blackouts will not hurt this or the BBA.

So skip that treatment.

I would strongly suggest doing lower concentrations over longer time frames to kill and control the algae, so dose consistently for 2-6 weeks etc.
It is much better to do this carefully than to rush and over dose it.

Also, if you can do a large water change, and expose the algae, then a spray bottle or a paint brush can be used and dab the Excel directly on the algae, but NOT the PLANTS!!!

Be careful there.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Thanks for the info. I am perfectly ok with English as it expands the source of expertise to the whole world instead of not-so-popular russian aquarium community. 

Let me get this very clear: you say that in non-co2 tank one should not do water changes?

As for the algae type. My wife had experience with this algae before and she says that in time it becomes grey and dissolves. At no stage it has a red color. So, it does seems that it is Cladophora (green algae). I looked at the images of it on google and i see none when it is attached like a thick mat to the leaves. Strange. 

I bleached it in undissolved bleach and it is not red, it becomes light yellow, nothing else. While bleaching it goes from green to yellowish and the flow yellowish to light yellow and stay there. In a tank it becomes light gray at the end, due to natural decomposition.


Also for the blackout method. AFAIK algae use photosynthesis, so, depriving it of light must hurt it and hurt it sooner that the plants, because the lack of reserves. Isn't it true? I understand that nothing beats personal experience. 

I am not sure if it presents a good sign as you said. It covers everything and plants actually die because of it.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Alright, 72 hours passed. 

In H2O2 2L tank nothing changed really. It seems like the algae became fluffier, but i not sure. Not color change too. I put this tank in a dark box and treated it with 5ml/L H2O2 does. 

Meanwhile two new things happened

1) I did a clean experiment on what H2O2 does with this algae. I picked a small ball of the algae and put it in 3% H2O2, it bubbled and bubbled and i waited and waited. Well, not much happened really. The algae became a bit lighter, so green can be seen better and after an hour it became brownish on the ends of the branched. I left it in the 3% H2O2 in a dark place to see what will become of it tomorrow. But it seems that it going to produce that red color after all. Chlorine bleach does not show no brown or red.

2) I got my GA today (Cidex 2.2-2.7% GA) and i picked another anubias covered with BBA and put into 1.5L plastic jug. I sprinkled 0.3ml of Cidex, mix the water and left it in a shadowy place. 

I just realized that i could use that 5L cidex for sterilizing the tank when i want to restart it. Also, it is stated that it kills mycobacteria. Interesting, can it be used to heal the fish from it?

I also searched the web for "polyglutaraldehyde" (which is claimed to be in Excel) and found this paper 
http://cactiexchange.ipc.tsc.ru/blogger/ma60073a004.pdf
which from from Jet Propulsion Lab (which is my most favorite lab in the world).
Organic chemistry is one of a few thing i know pretty much nothing about. But as think i understood from this paper that basically glutaraldehyde turns into a polymer form naturally without any effort. It just takes some time and a bit of temperature (25-30C).
The higher the PH - the more polymers we get. However, cidex is acidic, so, polymer forming takes a lot longer in it, but, on the other hand, it is already been at room temperature for half a year.
Now the interesting question is: Why it states exp date is aug 2012? What will happen to glutaraldehyde by that time? Will be be split into H2O + Co2? I doubt, too much C is left there and i doubt i will see black carbon on the bottom of that bottle.


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## Abrium (Jan 7, 2011)

You have to give it time. Dose 5 to 10 ml at a time depending on the syringe you're using. 

Maintain the low light level because the light will react with the H2O2. However, in a reasonable amount of time usually a week the algae will being to turn color, usually pink, and die off. 

This didn't work for me the first time I attempted it either but I have perfected the process that I use and this is very effective for spot treatment. However, you will have to continue to spot treat until you find the root cause. 

Cheers,
Abe


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

4 days passed.

1) H2O2 2L tank - the tip of the BBA became a bit ligher. The thikness descreased. Treated with 5ml of H2O2. This is going to be the last dark day for this anubias, i mean tomorrow i will put it out of the black box and shine light on it. It has been too long in the dark. Though anubia looks pretty healthy and colorfully green.

2) GA jug - BBA thikness descreased, much is now detached and fell down. Anubia look healthy and cleaner. Treated with around 1ml of GA per 1,5L this time. Stay in a shadowy place.

The BBA ball i left i H2O2 overnight became yellow, not red.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

I got Fe, NO2, NO3 test.
The picture is not very plesant.

Fe < 0.02ppm
NO3 1ppm
NO2 < 0.01ppm
PO4 - zero

So, there is nothing for plant to feed on and to grow + too much about 10-12 h/day) of low quality light. As i understand the only thing which will grow in such tank is... algae 

It reminded me, that when my wife put all those anubias into 20L tank lighted with 35W halogen lamp and added some ferts the algae started to disappear at first, but after some time the algae started to return. Now i see, that it is probably the case with nutrient defficiency return. They started to outgrow the algae but then nutrients just ended.
Does it sound reasonable?

As for H2O2 and GA treatment in reparate small tank (2L) and a hug (1.5L):

1) H2O2 5 days passed. I don't see any further progress. I stopped it for now and returned this anubias to the 20L tank with the rest of the plants. Two leaves died, the rest have minor discoloration. The algae is just a bit more sparse and detached more easily, but not easy, though at least without damaging the leaves. So, i manbually cleaned and returned.

2) GA 3 days passed. 50% of this algae is now detached and floating at the bottom of the jug. No color change. I does 0.5ml of GA and continued.

From this all i 100% that this is not BBA. At least not the BBA that you usually mean. BBA is red algae, and this one is not. It is green one. 
So, plantbrain is mostly likely was right, it is most likely Cladophora and it does not give s..t about blackouts. OR it still can be green beard algae (http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/). I don't really know which one and how to determine.


Now i just want to know how sensitive it is to GA, so i will continue GA treatment.

Now for the further plans. I decided to buy good plant ferts and dose it into 20L and the main 100L tanks + does GA as CO2 suppliment + light control + hand picking the algae.
I cannot change the light in the main tank now. It has two very old T5 lamps. Maybe replacing them with 4 to 5 36W halogen lamps (the usual MR16 from OSRAM) can be a benefit? As someone told it is better to make a shorter and intensive light.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

Here is the news since my last post.
I stopped all experiment in small volumes and now we have most of the plants in 20L tank and some of them in the main 100L tank.
20L received 6ml of Cidex for 3 days and now it is receiving only 3ml per day.
100L receives 15ml of Cidex every day.
Also, i started fertilizing the plains in both tanks (macro+micro).
My wife cleaned the plants witha toothbrush in the 20L. They look a lot better now. Before cidex treatment it was simple impossible to detach algae from the leaves. After cleaning they were also treated with special antispress solution for plants.
In the main tank we also started biological attach on the algae. We bought 5 ottos, 10 amano shripms and 3 hairy snails (nerita). While ottos and shrimp work like crazy, the snail i have not see for 2 days. They are night beasts and during the day they dig themselves into the soil. Maybe i just miss them. We don't see any immediate results from there work however.
The green beard seems to be mostly dead, but need to be cleaned by something or someone. There are also green thread algae on the glass, but i hope cidex + algae eater must finish it eventually within a week.
Hard to tell how the plants feel in the main tank, but for sure hornwort is happy and grows like crazy. It's stem became red.

Some of the cleaned plants are looking very good, but a bit pale. Maybe the cidex dosage was too high. But some we so much affected by the green beard that after cleaning the leaves have some kind of had residue which is impossible to clean. Looks like some kind of calcinate. I doubt that such leaves will recover.


That's it for now.


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## artemm (Dec 19, 2010)

4 out of 5 ottos lived (1 is MIA). All shrimps are healthy and acrtive. All 3 snails are there but i can see them only at night (durig the day they a always in the gravel and invisible).
So, the mail tanks is almost clean now (a little weak patches here and there). The beard is dead in the small tank too, but it is not that clean and the plants there do not look healthy for now. They look yellowish and i am trying to get them into a good form now.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

Its funny how different tanks react i have a tank that gets about 3hrs of direct sun and it has only ever had a small amount of thread algae. i think my fish are healthier because of the sun also.


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## Mikesturttank (May 19, 2011)

I love my BBA.....Trying to get it to spread to all the rock structures in the tank....it's like a drug to watch it move when I come home from work.----Mike


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