# Low tech = greater biodiversity?



## Crab Man (Aug 12, 2013)

Hi all,

Long time listener, first time caller...

I currently have a 35 gallon tall tank. It is planted and has a tetra school, a couple platties, couple mystery snails, one bamboo shrimp, and a pleco. (I'll try to attach a pic here)

It's pretty standard all around...

The thing is, I've been considering switching to a reef tank for a while now and the number one reason is biodiversity. I love the idea of a reef tank having copepods, isopods, little shrimp, crabs, starfish, worms, feather dusters, etc., etc. all coming from live rock and not even being considered the main show. Most people want coral and fish, but honestly it makes me giddy to think of all the tiny interactions and balancing acts of having all those layers of the food chain swimming and living and creating a teeming pool of life. And these guys are considered hitchhikers!

Anyway, I long ago gave up on having a similar thing happen in my freshwater tank. That is until I stumbled upon some online low tech tank descriptions that said without a filter biodiversity like this can exist in a freshwater tank! They described water lice, worms, shrimp, snails, etc, all kinds of microfauna, surviving, thriving, and breeding in their freshwater tank.

So my big question to you good people is, can you get reef like biodiversity and microfauna in your freshwater setups, and have you personally done so? Should I just bite the bullet and go for a reef tank, or can I really get a full working ecosystem with tons of little creepy crawlies with freshwater? I understand I'd have to have only a couple little fish and no more large schools, but that is fine, I just want to have tons of plants and big amounts of biodiversity.

Is this possible? Please advise! :help:


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I assume my 10g high tech tank is pretty biodiverse. I make this assumption because I haven't fed the tank in months yet all my fish (green neons and scarlet badis are nice and plump). Not sure what exactly they're eating but whatever it is it's working for them.


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

One of my tanks has lots of worms on the glass above the water line, I just swipe them back in to the water with a magnet cleaner to feed the minnows.. I feed processed food once or so a week.. cherry shrimp, and hitchhikers on plants can help complete the circle of life...

It won't be perfectly sustainable forever, it will need some sort of input, mostly N over time.


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## aspensandoaks (Mar 10, 2011)

I found this link interesting

http://www.tuncalik.com/2009/09/biotope-in-my-study/


Biodiversity can work, but with the addition of predators you run the risk of them eating some of the inverts before they can repopulate


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

If you have a planted tank, which you do because I saw the pic, then you already have white worms in your substrate. U may have slugs or snails in there also. I'm sure there are 1000's of creatures in there you aren't even seeing. Remember in science in middle school you take one eye dropper from a puddle of water and add more water to a jar no chlorine and look again in one week. Set the jar in the sun. You'll get green water if you add a piece of your plants. 
I used to worry about the creatures in my tank harming my fish but they haven't. I have even seen hydra in my tanks. It's cool stuff. Nice thread.


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## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

As I'm working on my tanks and elbow deep in water, I prefer not to think about the myriad of "creatures"! :icon_eek:


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## rbus (Jul 19, 2011)

It is possible, although not to the scale of a reef tank. I had a fully self-sustaining* 29G setup years ago. The only feeding i did was fertilizer for the plants. The tank basically became a self-sustaining ecosystem. 

The big caveat was that I had a very, very small fish population. I had a single school of 5 aspidoras (which bred) and 2 or 3 otos. That's it. The rest of the ecosystem was made up of Crystal Red shrimp, snails, and the stuff that just kind of happened. With a magnifying glass you could see tons of fw copepods, daphnia, seed shrimp, and the occasional nematode and more that would appear and then disappear just as mysteriously.

The real difference is that the biodiversity wasn't as readily visible as a reef tank. There were no stunning feather dusters or interesting corals that would pop up out of live rock. The only shrimp that appeared were the babies of my stocked population. I found the tank fascinating, but it lacked the "wow factor" for guests or fish people. Eventually I added a single apisto, who then required feedings.

Good luck, and I hope you enjoy your results!


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

Ditto the above. I've a 3g planted vase that's a wonder to behold--if you've got a magnifying glass or jewelers loupe and a strong light behind it. 

Five types of snails: 
rams, mini-rams, pond, mts and an overlooked olive nerite
Three types of shrimp: 
cherry culls, two ghost males and my last surviving car. propinqua
Four endler/guppy hybrid males
Scuds galore (one domestically raised strain, one wild caught)
Three distinct types of planaria, four of worms/nematodes, hydra, daphnia and pretty much every variety of micro-organism on the charts including some things I've yet to be able to identify. 

The dragonfly nymph that came in with some native plants proved too voracious so it was moved to my outdoor tank and replaced with a couple damselfly nymphs gleaned from the local canal. (Note: the outdoor tank also has a water scorpion and diving beetle--but they're impossible to see usually as it's 10g of opaque green!).


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## WestHaven (Jun 30, 2012)

Interesting discussion. So if somebody went down to their local pond/lake/river/canal, picked up a cup of water and dirt and added it to their tank, would it instantly increase the biodiversity?


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## Crab Man (Aug 12, 2013)

Axelrodi202 said:


> I assume my 10g high tech tank is pretty biodiverse. I make this assumption because I haven't fed the tank in months yet all my fish (green neons and scarlet badis are nice and plump). Not sure what exactly they're eating but whatever it is it's working for them.


Could you tell me what is high tech about your tank? Also, can you describe the biodiversity a little? I'd love to know what your fish are eating without any feedings. You said you're not sure but do you have any guesses? Can you see any microfauna?


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## Crab Man (Aug 12, 2013)

steven p said:


> One of my tanks has lots of worms on the glass above the water line, I just swipe them back in to the water with a magnet cleaner to feed the minnows.. I feed processed food once or so a week.. cherry shrimp, and hitchhikers on plants can help complete the circle of life...
> 
> It won't be perfectly sustainable forever, it will need some sort of input, mostly N over time.


Is N nitrogen? Also, do you use a filter? could you describe your setup a little? Do you see microfauna besides worms?


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## Crab Man (Aug 12, 2013)

WestHaven said:


> Interesting discussion. So if somebody went down to their local pond/lake/river/canal, picked up a cup of water and dirt and added it to their tank, would it instantly increase the biodiversity?


Haha, this is exactly what I tried to do. I added dead leaves and a cup of water with little critters, including snails. I also added duckweed from a local pond.

Within a week the ramshorn snails out performed the local snails and those disappeared. The duckweed disappeared as well and the leaves got processed by the mystery snails. It seems like every time I add biodiversity to the tank, the established residents just out perform them.

I'm really curious about how technology comes into play here. I feel like if I got rid of my two hang on back filters and the water was still, these things might survive. It might also be the case that the temperatures are to high in my tank for local sub-tropical species.

The link that someone gave above is utterly FASCINATING! Maybe if I start over and only use non-tropical species, and no filter (still water) I could get something like the tank linked above. Obviously reef tanks are more stunning, but a pond tank would still interest me for all the same reasons and the maintenance would be so low, it might be worth it.

Thank you all for your input and if there are any others out there doing a pond style tank with high biodiversity, or are attempting to do an ecosystem / biotope, please let me know, as I find these things utterly inspiring!


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Crab Man said:


> Could you tell me what is high tech about your tank? Also, can you describe the biodiversity a little? I'd love to know what your fish are eating without any feedings. You said you're not sure but do you have any guesses? Can you see any microfauna?


CO2 is cranked up as high as the fish will take it, lights are 3 x 22 watt CFL bulbs in metal reflectors, and I dose EI every day. 

Plant growth is starting to get pretty good after 8 months (made a lot of mistakes during the start) though I still am combating hair algae and green algae on the glass. In some areas the plant growth is pretty thick, such as a carpet of DHG Belem that takes up over half the tank. I notice the badis tend to hang out there most of the time. The green neons are all over the place. Most of the time when I see the badis they look like they are actively hunting. Can't see anything that they'd be eating, but their bellies have stayed plump for months so I guess they must be eating something. I presume it's a combination of the algal growth and plant density that provides conditions where micro-organisms that the fish eat can grow. I also have 2 nerite snails, and I've heard that their poo helps feed infusoria (though whether or not this is actually true I don't know).


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## Patty LongD (Jun 9, 2013)

Hey I'm just adding to an already thriving discussion, a little social diversity here, I have an eight gallon tank and the tech is stupid low. DIY co2, bio-wheel filter that's rated up to 30 gallons and 1 fluorescent 5w. The tank is a normal little thing, but the Anubias Nana is pearling and looking sexy, I've got dwarf hairgrass beginning to take hold, and I've got two "aqua ferns" from petco (those are slowly dying because they're not actually aquatic plants thank you petco) that I will soon remove and throw at the nearest Petco sales rep.

Anywho, I have, against some odds, a butt-load of biodiversity. My water I clear but I have planaria for certain, and at least four different varieties of copepods. Only a betta and two guppies, who chow down on everything, a ghost shrimp and two ADFs that do require feeding. Also a growing pop of sneaky hitch hiking snails, whom I love deeply.

The reason I post is to commend the resilience of these hitchhikers. The tank was scrubbed, bone dried and substrate thoroughly rinsed about three weeks ago. My girlfriend accidentally over-salted the tank while I was in NY so things became super deadly, talking 7 tablespoons of salt in 8 gallons of water here. 

All said and done though, some batch of critters or eggs found some way and has reappeared, taken hold and thrived in spite of our carelessness. I enjoy the diversity just as you guys do, the microscopia has the stage in my tank. I get immense pleasure from my fish feeding themselves and generations of volunteers making a home in my tank. I hadn't thought of it before but I guess the low-tech approach might be what's helping the tank out. Ill keep you posted on developments, but it can be done, even by accident.


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## Crab Man (Aug 12, 2013)

Patty LongD said:


> Hey I'm just adding to an already thriving discussion, a little social diversity here, I have an eight gallon tank and the tech is stupid low. DIY co2, bio-wheel filter that's rated up to 30 gallons and 1 fluorescent 5w. The tank is a normal little thing, but the Anubias Nana is pearling and looking sexy, I've got dwarf hairgrass beginning to take hold, and I've got two "aqua ferns" from petco (those are slowly dying because they're not actually aquatic plants thank you petco) that I will soon remove and throw at the nearest Petco sales rep.
> 
> Anywho, I have, against some odds, a butt-load of biodiversity. My water I clear but I have planaria for certain, and at least four different varieties of copepods. Only a betta and two guppies, who chow down on everything, a ghost shrimp and two ADFs that do require feeding. Also a growing pop of sneaky hitch hiking snails, whom I love deeply.
> 
> ...


That sounds really awesome! Please do update. I wonder if the populations can survive the betta and guppies munching away. I wonder how the critters got in there? Probably on the plants I guess. What is your substrate like? soil sand or gravel? any pictures you could share?


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## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

Crab Man said:


> Is N nitrogen? Also, do you use a filter? could you describe your setup a little? Do you see microfauna besides worms?


N:nitrogen

In this tank, i do filter. Tiny little powerhead driven sponge filters, more or less.

The tank started was a dry start with plants and miracle grow succulent/cactus mix. I would assume this product is generally devoid of ferts, as any christmas cactus keeper can tell you, a little food will kill your pet plant.. 

From there I planted with some randomly gathered native marginals and aquatics, then some ludwigia repens was added. A red claw crab moved in, kicked the bucket, then it was back to plants only. Plant food was/sometimes is a Menards knock off miracle gro called "GroFine."

***boring wait, rescape, a few other things pop up***

I flood the set-up add a filter and move some shrimpies in, get bored with that real quick... as i have another good shrimp tank running and decide to fish out my white clouds from my 65. They go in, I feed them every once in a while, worms show up nicely, keep the glass clean. i swipe them into the water every now and then... as well as swap in and out livestock(this is a bedside tank and gets heavy personal viewing, change is constant.)

everything is pretty kosher there, i have running "jars" with healthy populations of random micro inverts, so every once in a while, i go in and grab a pinch of moss and toss it in a tank to re-seed other tanks with cyclops and seed shrimp.



^^^^refocus: when i mentioned nitrogen input, that would be plant/algae food. without this input, essentially the well of life will run dry. As others have mentioned, a seemingly perfect circle forms, but it can get boring...

then again here, freshwater keepers are able to maintain higher stocking levels for several reasons. there are major gives and takes either way... 

the serious keeping of freshwater inverts is also in its infancy, i personally am ecstatic to see all the freshwater crabs and shrimps actually safely make their way into our tanks.


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## frenchie1001 (Jun 23, 2013)

intersting discussion. personally after 3 years off planted tanks, i see occasional worms on my nano but nothing else.
that said in my old 4ft i had a fat featherfin without ever really feeding him.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

WestHaven said:


> Interesting discussion. So if somebody went down to their local pond/lake/river/canal, picked up a cup of water and dirt and added it to their tank, would it instantly increase the biodiversity?


Yes,and quite possibly introduce thing's like fish lice,planaria,gill flukes,anchor worm's,which could then have negative effect on otherwise healthy fishes. IMHO


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## Knotyoureality (Aug 3, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> Yes,and quite possibly introduce thing's like fish lice,planaria,gill flukes,anchor worm's,which could then have negative effect on otherwise healthy fishes. IMHO


A big part of why most folks doing this don't with their expensive stock and recognize they run the risk of introducing problems with every addition. 

I wiped out the entire snail population of one of my planted vases after introducing some locally collected plants. I quarantined the vase to ensure no shared nets or hoses, moved cuttings in but never out of the vase--and after a few months, I started tossing a snail or two in every week to see if they'd survive. Six months later I once again have thriving snail populations. It's still a quarantined vase--but it's an absolute delight to watch and I won't hesistate to toss another cup of "wild" water in this spring once things warm up.


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## fish h20 (May 5, 2009)

Blackworms living in the substrate are a great addition. They help keep it from going anaerobic and also feed the fish.


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## Method (Feb 13, 2011)

One of the big determinants of biodiversity is the presence of refugia (in the ecological sense, not the aquarium sense) for the lower-level critters to hide in. Wood, floater roots, substrate, sponges, plants, rocks, and many other physical objects in the tank serve as refugia for your inverts.

Another consideration is, of course, what critters have been introduced to the tank. Those very biodiverse reef tanks wouldn't be if the inverts hadn't hitchhiked. If you use tap water from a municipal source chances are you'll have introduced copepods and a variety of single-celled organisms. Bought plants recently? There's another introduction vehicle. Fed live foods? You get the idea.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

This thread is pretty interesting. Recently I looked at a bit of thread algae under microscope and was astonished at the number of minute, crawling living things I saw in those tangled algae strands. And I thought my water was decently clean! I knew there were micro-organisms in the tank, but hadn't realized the possible quantity. (No idea what most of them are). I've started feeding my fish a bit less once I realized how much they were actually feeding themselves in the tank- I see them picking stuff off plants and substrate all the time- and they do just fine 2 weeks alone when I'm travelling.


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