# darn kuhli loaches!



## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

i have 5 kuhli loaches, 3 i have had for quite a while now and 2 that i got about 2 weeks ago. 

they are doing great, from what i can tell, in my yucky 30 gallon tank. i am in the process of taking that tank down and the kuhli loaches, amano shrimp, and cories are going to my new 66 gallon tank. 

last night i rehomed (do you use that term with fish?? haha!) my blue tetras and my emperor tetras. so, i took the opportunity to move the other fish over. i kept the 30 going because i couldn't find one shrimp and i still have a tiger barb that is going back to the store on wednesday.

anyway, the cories are doing great, they were sifting through the sand looking for food within a few minutes of being in the tank. they are swimming around having a great time. the shrimp were also looking for food within a few minutes. and... i thought the kuhli loaches were doing good too since they were swimming around and eating. well, i was wrong.

within an hour the loaches were floating.  i scooped them out and put them back in the old tank with the tiger barb. then i went to bed. i got up this morning and they are all perfectly fine. 

what the heck?? am i ever going to be able to get them into the tank?? i tested the water, ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are all 0. the water was a little cooler than the other tank, maybe a degree? i thought it was the same but upon closer inspection of the thermometers it was a little cooler. could that be it?

i have had this problem before, putting kuhli loaches into a tank that i have treated with prime. could that be it?? it makes no sense. i have used aqua plus in my 30 gallon because i am so nervous to use prime with the loaches. but, i have used prime in the 66 gallon and the neons that have been in there for the past 2 weeks have been doing great. i have tested the water multiple times and i always get 0,0,0. 

right now i have a hob filter rated for 20-40 gallons on the tank because the canister filter i got with it (second hand set up) leaks. i also have a sponge filter rated to 60 gallons. could the lack of current be causing problems for them? the shrimp seem to be fine. my eheim 2215 should be here on monday. and i will get a powerhead if i need to, i will be going into town on wednesday so i can get one then.

sorry for writing so much. please help?


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## speerwashere (Feb 24, 2012)

#1 it sounds like the 66g tank's not cycled but you could try accumulating it slowly to the water in the new tank and see if that helps


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## Eldachleich (Jul 9, 2011)

Why are you scared of using prime with loaches?


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

Eldachleich said:


> Why are you scared of using prime with loaches?


because each time i use prime with my loaches they don't do well. i don't know why.

maybe the 66 gallon isn't completely cycled yet but the filter i have on there is the one i took from the 30 gallon and all the plants came from there, along with some of the rocks and it was running for 2 weeks with the sponge filter and some plants before the fish moved in. all the tests have come back good every time i test. not sure what else i need to show it is cycled?


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## kcartwright856 (Jan 16, 2012)

Kuhlis are extremely sensitive. 0,0,0 on a water test shows that your tank isn't cycled. Go out and get a bottle of Tetra Safestart.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

why does 0,0,0 say it is not cycled? before i put the neons in there was a small amount of nitrites and nitrates. my 30 gallon that has been set up for over a year has the same 0,0,0.


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

It's not the Prime. Lots of loach keeper's use it and recommend it. I'm one of them. Do a search for it on loaches.com and see what you get. 

Last weekend I moved 6 pangios from a 20H to a 29gal. They spent 6 hours drip acclimating to the new tank water. Probably a little overkill with the 6 hours, but there was about a 50dh difference in the GH. Have you measured any other parameter's like Ph, Gh, Kh?


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

no, i haven't measured that lately. would the water in both tanks be that different? i know here we have very soft water. i will test those and see. the tanks have the same rock and same sand in both. 

so, if i take the loaches and put them in a container with water from the 30 gallon and then drip in some water from the new tank over a few hours they should be ok, maybe? how much water do you put in when you are drip acclimating? is it literally a drip at a time or more? it seems to me that a literal drip won't be enough, unless it is constant. i think i will be googling that... 

i didn't really think it was the prime but i just can't seem to figure out what it could be. unless it is the water change itself that is causing issues with the loaches? i have a siphon that attaches to my tap and that is how i take the water out and put it back. i make sure it is as close to the same temp. as possible and i turn off my filter because i was told maybe the filter is sucking the prime in before it gets a chance to do what it is meant to. i am not sure. i have been doing this for a few years now, and the loaches are the only ones i have ever had a problem with. maybe they are just the most sensitive that i have had? i thought shrimp were pretty sensitive too?


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## kcartwright856 (Jan 16, 2012)

mindy said:


> maybe the 66 gallon isn't completely cycled yet but the filter i have on there is the one i took from the 30 gallon and all the plants came from there, along with some of the rocks and it was running for 2 weeks with the sponge filter and some plants before the fish moved in. all the tests have come back good every time i test. not sure what else i need to show it is cycled?





> why does 0,0,0 say it is not cycled? before i put the neons in there was a small amount of nitrites and nitrates. my 30 gallon that has been set up for over a year has the same 0,0,0.


If I'm reading all of this correctly, you took the filter and some things from your cycled 30 gallon and into the 66, but it ran for two weeks without fish. Then you added neons, though I don't recall if you mentioned how many.

Bacteria can't survive without food (waste). Though bacteria starvation periods are debated, it's highly likely that you had a vast portion, if not 100%, of that bacteria die off in those two weeks that it was running without any fish in there producing waste. In other words, you would have lost the cycle.

Though, as mentioned above, there could be other issues.

Why is your 30 gallon yucky? What sort of maintenance do you do on it, such as percentage of water changes and how often? A large difference in water chemistry/quality (Not just ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates!) is enough to shock sensitive fish like kuhlis.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Mindy - I use Prime with my Zipper loaches. How much prime are you using? I found out I was using too much. I contacted SeaChem and found out it only takes *2 DROPS* per gallon.

Chances are it's not the Prime but maybe if the concentration was too high it might have bothered them???


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

kcartwright856 said:


> If I'm reading all of this correctly, you took the filter and some things from your cycled 30 gallon and into the 66, but it ran for two weeks without fish. Then you added neons, though I don't recall if you mentioned how many.
> 
> Bacteria can't survive without food (waste). Though bacteria starvation periods are debated, it's highly likely that you had a vast portion, if not 100%, of that bacteria die off in those two weeks that it was running without any fish in there producing waste. In other words, you would have lost the cycle.
> 
> ...


no, i took the filter over when i got the neons. i don't think i would have had any die off of bacteria in that filter.

the sponge filter was running for 2 weeks and hopefully grew some bacteria in that time because of the plants in the water (i had some dying pieces of plants in the water, maybe not enough to produce the ammonia needed?) the rocks and plants came from a cycled tank.

the 30 is yucky because it has algae on the back of the tank and the fish in there just weren't working, and i was just unhappy with the tank for quite sometime now. i do about 30-40% water change every 2 weeks. i find it hard to reach the back of the tank with the plants in there, so maybe it is just laziness that is making it "yucky". i am just unhappy with that tank now.

ok, test results are in:

30 gallon: 

nitrates - 0
nitrites - 0
ammonia - 0
pH - 7.2
gH - 5 drops - chart in kit says 89.5
kH - 3 drops

66 gallon: 

nitrates - 0
nitrites - 0
ammonia - 0
pH - 7.0
gH - 3 drops - chart says 53.7
kH - 2 drops

so, i am guessing the differences in the last 3 is what is causing the problems. will drip acclimation help this?



DogFish said:


> Mindy - I use Prime with my Zipper loaches. How much prime are you using? I found out I was using too much. I contacted SeaChem and found out it only takes *2 DROPS* per gallon.
> 
> Chances are it's not the Prime but maybe if the concentration was too high it might have bothered them???


most likely i am using too much.  like i said above, i do water changes with the siphon attached to the tap, so when i put prime in do i treat just for the amount of water i am putting back in or do i treat for the whole 66 gallons again?


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## CrazyCatPeekin (Aug 15, 2011)

I've also used Prime with Kuhlis and never had issues. I know that I have overdosed on a number of occasions. I have not once had an issue with any of my fish that I could trace back to the Prime.

Zero nitrates is really odd. With tons of plants and very light stocking, maybe...but most cycled tanks will show some nitrate...especially with your water change schedule.

I think maybe your test kit is suspect. What are you using? Strips are unreliable. If you are using a liquid test kit, then you need to really shake the snot out of the 2nd nitrate solution (bottle #2 for the nitrate test). If the solution is not mixed, you will not get accurate results.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Khulis don't like new tanks for some reason. They like old 'dirty' established tanks. Introduce them to the new tank next month.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

thanks.

i am not using strips. maybe i am not shaking the bottle enough.  but, i do keep my tanks lightly stocked and i have tons of plants. i don't know.

the thought of keeping this tank going for another month makes me want to cry  it will have nothing in it but 5 kuhli loaches. blah. i guess i will have to  i don't want dead kuhli loaches. i really wish the drip acclimation would work.


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> so, i am guessing the differences in the last 3 is what is causing the problems.


It could be. I'm just trying to give different things to consider.



> will drip acclimation help this?


It can. Have you ever dripped shrimp before? I do a much slower drip with shrimp, 1 drop a second. With fish, I start out at 2 and as time passes I usually increase that drip over time to 4 drops a second. When I moved mine I started with a 1/2 gal of the old tank water. I threw some plants and driftwood in to keep them comfortable while they dripped.



> most likely i am using too much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some of the loach keepers I've known do water changes (Python?) just like you. They put enough Prime in to treat the amount they took out, then fill.

Kuhli's do like a nice mature tank so the longer you wait to transfer them, the better.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

thank you.

how do you set up your drip acclimation? i haven't drip acclimated shrimp. i still have the same shrimp i had for about a year and a 1/2 now, and i didn't know to do that when i got them. they are amanos so i know they are the same shrimp, no babies in there


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I do the lazy man's acclimation.
Bag the fish. Float the bag and cut 2 slits with scissors below the water line. The water in the bag and tank will mix through diffusion.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

great tip! thank you


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

A similar lazy person's way is a bucket of some kind, an air line hose and a valve of some sort to control the flow of water. Set it up like a siphon and walk away. I do come back to check/increase flow at times. 

The bucket, air line, and valve are stuff I already had laying around.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

that is a great tip too  i wonder how it would work with 2 dogs and 2 cats and a bucket of fish sitting on the floor... haha! i am sure i could work it out if i had to.


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> i wonder how it would work with 2 dogs and 2 cats and a bucket of fish sitting on the floor... haha! i am sure i could work it out if i had to.


 Good time to train them. Keep an eye on the process and train at the same time.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

training would be good during that time but i don't know of any dog that can do a few hours of training at once  they are good boys, they will "leave it" when i say. i am more worried about the cats.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Loachutus said:


> A similar lazy person's way is a bucket of some kind, an air line hose and a valve of some sort to control the flow of water. Set it up like a siphon and walk away. I do come back to check/increase flow at times.
> 
> The bucket, air line, and valve are stuff I already had laying around.


This is not the lazy person's method 
You have to find a controller and adjust the water flow. I think my method is lazier.


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## kcartwright856 (Jan 16, 2012)

Instead of a valve, lots of folks just tie a loose overhand knot in the airline to make the flow adjustment. The tighter the knot, the lesser the flow. It's an easy way to get the perfect amount of drip without fancy valves.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

kcartwright856 said:


> Instead of a valve, lots of folks just tie a loose overhand knot in the airline to make the flow adjustment. The tighter the knot, the lesser the flow. It's an easy way to get the perfect amount of drip without fancy valves.


i like this idea more because i don't know if i have any valves... but, since i am going into town on wednesday i could possibly get some if they have some at the store. the store is not stocked very well.

i am planning to get a bunch more plants when i go in. that should be fine for the 66 gallon, right?


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## moonshinetheslacker (Sep 13, 2010)

I personally have about 15 Kuhlis now, and they most certainly like to be dripped for a long time. I don't like sharing water from other sources (wouldn't be a problem for you) but what I usually do is float the bag in the tank, open the top, and tape the top to the rim of the tank so I can pour water in. Then every 10 minutes I dump a shot glass of water into the bag. I try to do it for at least 4 hours. Kuhlis can be pretty sensitive to pH fluctuations, but can put up with quite a bit of abuse, IME. I would try a nice, long, lazy man's drip to see if they adjust any better.


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## mindy (Dec 22, 2010)

Thanks. That sounds like a good way to do it too.

I think i will keep the 30 gallon going for a while longer and then in a few weeks acclimate them slowly. 
Thanks everyone for all your help


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