# Animal cruelty against Otocinclus



## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

I've been thinking about my poor otocinclus* lately..

Here it goes:
1. we all know that otocinclus' natural habitat is heavy current rivers, with rocks - cold & fresh water, lots of oxygen, lots of algae
2. BUT, a planted tank is just the opposite of this!
Very low surface agitation - with very high CO2 level

*the same goes with Hillstream Loach aka borneo sucker.

I just moved my otocinclus to another tank (my "river tank" wannabe) - (high flow of water, high oxygen/lots of air bubble, etc.)

Just think about it.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Even though were are injecting CO2 into our aquariums, the oxygen levels are quite high. When our plants start to pearl, they are actually "exhaling" O2, so the water in our aquariums are actually super saturated with oxygen! The Otos should be fine on that account.

As far as a river or stream-like current, our aquariums are lacking.

Mike


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

After watching them play tag under the moonlight in my 100 gal tank, I realized that it is cruel to put them in 10 gal or smaller tanks where they just run into hard surfaces.


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

> ...When our plants start to pearl...


the thing is... they only pearl less than 12 hours a day... at best!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Do you really believe that our Otos are oxygen starved or are you just joking?  

I am quite sure our Otos are doing pretty well, living a peaceful, predator free existence.

Mike


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

oh well, we all do our best for our pets. 

My wife thinks I spend too much time (and money) on them! :O


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

I don't think its cruelty, the Otos we buy are bred in captivity and have no idea of rivers, streams and algae infested waters.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Dennx, are you sure about this?

To my knowledge, they are "collected" in their native habitats, by dumping poison into the water, which makes them less agile and therefore easier to net out.

Sounds sick... but that's what I read on other sites.


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

Wasserpest is the man! Absolutely correct.
Otos are caught in the wild - using a diluted form of cyanide.

Believe it or not, it's common practice to capture decorative fish - both freshwater or saltwater.
I know this because my uncle used to catch and export saltwater fish from Indonesia.

They do the same thing for other fish like arowana, clown loach, etc (anything they can't breed in captivity or cheaper than if bred in captivity).

Sick! All thanks to us, hobbyist! 

The sad truth is, as long as we keep buying, they will keep doing it - until it's all gone/extinct (or until those area/source got developed with buildings, etc.)


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

Yikes, that sounds terrible! So none are bred??


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## aychamo (Jun 27, 2004)

bigpow said:


> Wasserpest is the man! Absolutely correct.
> Otos are caught in the wild - using a diluted form of cyanide.
> 
> Believe it or not, it's common practice to capture decorative fish - both freshwater or saltwater.
> ...



If you are so worried about it, maybe you should give up your fish hobby. Don't "feed" the collectors.


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## ^iMp^ (Oct 12, 2003)

aychamo said:


> If you are so worried about it, maybe you should give up your fish hobby. Don't "feed" the collectors.


Or simply buy fish that are captive bred. The collection of wild fish is a larger problem than any of us would like to admit...but it is the truth.

http://www.care4fish.com/endangered

http://www.ecovitality.org/cyanide.htm

http://www.zpok.hu/cyanide/baiamare/docs/FISH.htm

http://www.ecovitality.org/cyanide-essay.htm

I think cyanide poisoning is a bigger problem in salt water fish collection, but I don't doubt that they use similar techniques in fresh water.

^iMp^


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I doubt they use poison to capture Otocinclus. From what I have read you can go to a stream where they are common and dip the leaf litter from the bottom of the stream and end up with 100's of the little guys.


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## chinaboy1021 (May 30, 2003)

we are all cruel for keeping fish in a glass box. cruel, cruel men we are.


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## randomrambler (Jun 24, 2004)

and what cruel cruel people our parents were for keeping us in a big, wood box we called a house.... actually they are living longer, probably healthier lives than in the wild. they don't have to worry about predators, they can breed and take care of babies, they dont starve to death (get regular feedings), and get cleaner water. as long as you arent keeping them in a tank smaller than recommended, they dont seem to care that they are in a tank. animals only breed pretty much when they are happy with surroundings. you see fish regularly breeding in tanks, so there you go. my opinion.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

For the most part I agree with random rambler. But they will always have cleaner water in the wild.

A majority of our fish come from streams/rivers that have 1000's of gallons of water constantly circulating. That fish would never touch the the same molecule ever again. In our tanks we have a mere 10, 20, 200 gallons and at best people do 50% weekly changes. My fish always look and act more lively after a water change.

BTW, I don't feel any guilt for keeping fish in glass boxes.


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

> animals only breed pretty much when they are happy with surroundings


Dang!
Then out of all my fish, only my guppy & black molly are happy 
(well, actually, my corydoras & rosey barbs are scattering their eggs everynow & then, but I never really take the time to breed them)


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## Bonsai (Jul 26, 2004)

People don't have to keep pets and they're allowed to be vegetarians. For me, it's really relaxing after a long day's work to sit back and watch my tanks w/ my miniature wienerdog (Bonsai) on my lap and nothing tastes better than a good steak ..... the food chain .... it's good being on top.


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## ^iMp^ (Oct 12, 2003)

randomrambler said:


> [our fish] are living longer, probably healthier lives than in the wild. they don't have to worry about predators, they can breed and take care of babies, they dont starve to death (get regular feedings), and get cleaner water. as long as you arent keeping them in a tank smaller than recommended, they dont seem to care that they are in a tank. animals only breed pretty much when they are happy with surroundings. you see fish regularly breeding in tanks, so there you go. my opinion.


A fine argument for us professional fish keepers who know what we are doing. But imagine the fate of all those WalMart fish and all those fish you see in PetSmart. Do you think professional aquarists take them home or are they going home to face little Timmy and his clueless parents? Do you think that these fish will live longer, healthier lives? We also know how many die in transit and during the first few days at the pet shop.

Though we know better and keep good care of _our_ fish, we are indirectly responsible for the other, less attractive things that go on in the hobbyist fish industry.

On a side note, I remember reading somewhere that some fish breed when they feel that their population is threatened (due to environmental cues).

^iMp^


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## SueFru (May 29, 2004)

I gave this subject much thought before getting into the aquarium hobby. I researched and try to buy fish that have long been bred in captivity. So far, the one exception is the Otto cat. I love these fish and they zoom around and appear content. I wonder why, if they like to be in water with high currents, mine prefer NOT to hang out in the are were my bio-wheel dumps water. Seems like that side of the tank would be more like their original habitat. Instead they have found an easier life eating algae with slower water movement. I hope they are comfortable. I adore my little monkey fish, especially when they cling to the plants.


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## VaporFlowers (Jul 13, 2004)

^iMp^ said:


> A fine argument for us professional fish keepers who know what we are doing. But imagine the fate of all those WalMart fish and all those fish you see in PetSmart. Do you think professional aquarists take them home or are they going home to face little Timmy and his clueless parents? Do you think that these fish will live longer, healthier lives? We also know how many die in transit and during the first few days at the pet shop.


As a PetSmart worker, yes, I agree with you. I can't tell you how many people (usually either parents or college students) come in, state that they have a 1 or 2 gallon tank, and would like to get some fish. Not one, but SOME. One of our employees sold a customer a red tail shark and a rainbow shark for her one gallon aquarium. When she came in asking questions about them, I encouraged her to bring back one of them, which she did. Then I promptly flogged the employee. 

However, when true fish hobbyists come in, I feel very comfortable knowing the bala sharks or silver dollars or cichlids or whatever are going to a good home that has the time and space to care for them. I can talk most small-tank owners out of buying fish not right for them. It is a great relief when a true hobbyist comes in and ends up keeping our fish for years.

I would consider fish a "domesticated" kind of pet when they are captive bred. (I won't ever say the same for birds, but that's another story) I think when hobbyists are truly willing to put forth effort to mimic the fish's natural environment, the fish are quite comfortable with the arrangement.

My otocinclus positions himself by the filter most of the time, so he certainly has the option of water current available to him. When he gets tired of it, he hangs out elsewhere. I don't know how he was collected, but he seems quite content at the moment.


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## AmoAquafish (Jun 5, 2004)

I know what you mean about alot of Petco type workers not knowing what they are doing. The other day I was at Wal-Mart and a guy sold someone two kissing gouromis for a one gallon tank. :icon_conf


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

I don't think you have to worry about cyanide used to collect marine fish as you do in the freshwater area (it's a lot less toxic in freshwater than salt for one thing). Less chemicals are used in the collection of freshwater fish.

As for the happiness of otos and other fish in general, it's hard to say. They're probably living longer than the majority of their kin in the wild. There's a tradeoff however. Even though they're living longer (not for all instances), they're not gonna be able to attain their full potential in our tanks (over time, aquarium fish are getting smaller).


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

Looking back at my original post, I was probably overly "sensitive" that day... 
Come to think of it, an oto only costs $1.49 at Petco... so really, even if we abuse these creatures... we can always buy more, right?
I mean, after spending hundreds (or maybe thousands) of dollars on equipment, I guess a few cheap fish dead here and there is not really a big deal. Their dead is justified in a way, that it help maintain the good look of our tank & equipment...




_
jk


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

On the contrary. It does matter, even if the fish costs less than that. The fact that we're pulling them from the wild is bad enough already, let alone knowing the fact that so many perish during acclimation.

There are details of breeding successes right now, but the numbers are very low (forget about being able to supply them commercially). At least there are efforts being put forth on such a treasured species.

BTW, I do see that jk on the bottom... :icon_roll


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## Bhu (Aug 21, 2014)

This is purely a human dilemma! The fish don't give a tahooty! Morality is definitely only innate in human beings. But caring is present in all living creatures. I'm sure all the fish keepers on this site would genuinely care for their fish with all their skill and ability to give them a happy long well fed life. What more can a creature ask?  like one member posted if they are breeding you can be sure that they are happy and healthy as that's a basic requirement to breed. 


Ottos
Keep them in groups, keep them in ample space with lots of greens, algae or at least substitutes if your tank is spanking spotless and just see how happy they are... Mine are fat and healthy play and cuddle and don't seem bothered that the flow is only 10X. They love all the plants and the water clarity and conditions are really clean for them. 

It's not like we are trying to tie them up, skin them alive, starve them, suffocate them or brutalise them in anyway such as many poor animals suffer at the hands of evil people. Also to take them from the LFS and give them a super decent place to live is being kind. LFS will always have lots of fish to tempt people whether they buy them or not. 

Just my 2 pennith... 

Bump: This shows some great success...

http://www.planetcatfish.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=29245


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## WestHaven (Jun 30, 2012)

I think taking fish from the wild is more of a problem with saltwater fish/critters than for freshwater. Most freshwater fish that we buy are bred in captivity (Oto cats are one exception), but most saltwater fish can't be bred in captivity at this time (clownfish are one exception). Also, taking fish from the oceans is more destructive of their habitats. One example is when people break apart coral colonies to take mantis shrimp and other animals that live in them. This not only destroys the reefs, but they can take the coral pieces and sell them. One good thing is that corals are now being grown in captivity in greater amounts, and there are programs where captive-grown corals are being reintroduced into the ocean.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

why did you revive a 10 year old thread?


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## CrypticLifeStyle (Jan 16, 2013)

Most fish collections from South America are not endangering the species, and they are not being collected using poisons, and in fact there is a lot of positive things that come out of it because the sustainable ornamental fish trade down there is also helping prevent de-forestation, and creating protected lands like ~>
http://www.neaq.org/conservation_and_research/projects/endangered_species_habitats/project_piaba.php

is doing as an example. Obviously this may not apply to all fish, nor do we actually know the circumstance of how all fish are collected in SA, but positive things are happening opposed to supporting mass breeding farms in Florida that ship poor quality, disease ridden specimens that live in crappy conditions. There's a lot of angles to look at from both sides. For me i'd rather support a native source that is sustainable, and contributes to saving our forests at the same time. Key is just do your research for each individual species, and try to avoid asian source's which is where they mostly do use poisons.


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## Bhu (Aug 21, 2014)

WestHaven said:


> I think taking fish from the wild is more of a problem with saltwater fish/critters than for freshwater. Most freshwater fish that we buy are bred in captivity (Oto cats are one exception), but most saltwater fish can't be bred in captivity at this time (clownfish are one exception). Also, taking fish from the oceans is more destructive of their habitats. One example is when people break apart coral colonies to take mantis shrimp and other animals that live in them. This not only destroys the reefs, but they can take the coral pieces and sell them. One good thing is that corals are now being grown in captivity in greater amounts, and there are programs where captive-grown corals are being reintroduced into the ocean.


Bangal Cardinal are mouth brooders and can be captive breed as well as blue strip pipe fish. Also in Tampa Bay they created a huge area of coral bones in the sea to seed it from the ocean for reef keepers. I agree though breaking real coral reefs to supply the trade sux...

Bump:


HybridHerp said:


> why did you revive a 10 year old thread?


Because I'm new here :hihi:


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

There has to be an award or something for a necro post this old.

I'll throw in my two cents:

Fish are not people. Don't anthropomorphize them.

They don't get happy.
They don't feel sad.
They exist, and their behavior is a product of their instincts and environment.

Fish have a hierarchy of needs. The more needs of theirs that you meet, the more natural and interesting behavior they will exhibit. Compromise any of that, and the fish live shorter lives, and they won't court, breed, school, shoal, etc.

Disease and Parasite free environment: obviously, sick and infested fish only exhibit signs of stress. suffering, and distress.

Companionship/Numbers: some fish need companions or numbers of them to display behavior such as schooling or shoaling. Some hate tank mates of any kind. Other fish like tiger barbs may terrorize a tank alone, but if you have 12 of them, they spend all of their time and aggression establishing their pecking order. They leave everyone else alone, and watching their social behavior is interesting.

Predator Free: a bullied fish is only going to hide, run, and exhibit stress.

Space, territory, and hiding places: some fish won't exhibit natural behaviors without enough space to swim. Some won't court or spawn without enough territory of their own. Fish with enough safe convenient hiding places will actually spend more time in the open.

Temp/PH/KH/GH: most fish will adapt to non ideal water parameters and live perfectly 'fine', but they certainly won't thrive in those conditions. Soft water fish won't even try to court or breed in hard water. Goldfish shouldn't be kept in tropical temps, and tropical species shouldn't be kept in cold.

Of course these are generalizations, and there are exceptions to the rule.


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## Mega Shrimp (Mar 5, 2014)

I know, old post, but I happened upon it. Occasionally for maintenance I will use a Magnum 350 to "power wash" my 20 gallon aquarium. That mechanical filter is WAY too powerful for that size of tank, but I use it periodically to stir up and filter out waste particles that have settled. Works great for that.

My Otos and Green Tiger Barbs seem to really enjoy all of that current rushing around them. The otos get really active and then will cling on the front glass while the strong current pushes and wiggles their bodies back and forth. Amusing to watch them doing this. They may not be able to enjoy it but it sure does look like it. 
~MS


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## adamfish (Feb 3, 2015)

This guy serious?


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## limz_777 (Jun 29, 2005)

HybridHerp said:


> why did you revive a 10 year old thread?


lol , it happens


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## Barbgirl (Feb 24, 2012)

I have to say, it cracks me up when people ask questions and the response is "use the search function", then they use and get an old post and the response is then "why are you commenting on an old post?"


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## newbieshrimpkeeper (Dec 2, 2014)

:iamwithst lol
also if u want some more info go on this link. http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/otocinclus-macrospilus/


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## PickieBee (Oct 29, 2014)

barbgirl said:


> i have to say, it cracks me up when people ask questions and the response is "use the search function", then they use and get an old post and the response is then "why are you commenting on an old post?"


yes!


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## Bishop61 (Oct 18, 2014)

Barbgirl said:


> I have to say, it cracks me up when people ask questions and the response is "use the search function", then they use and get an old post and the response is then "why are you commenting on an old post?"


That's super :tongue:


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## adamfish (Feb 3, 2015)

What about all the poor bugs that get squished?


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## ahem (Dec 27, 2014)

I know this is an old thread but thought I'd chime in. After keeping otos in my 20 G long, I do feel it is a little cruel to keep them in this small of a tank. The reason I say that is they startle easy, are freak fast and as a result run into surfaces all the time. It seems despite their small size they should perhaps have a much longer/larger area due to their speed and dart/freak out behavior. I really like them and would miss them in my tank, they are the best on algae out of all algae eater options in the 2" and down range, but if I had to do it over I would reconsider.


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