# I have no idea what I'm doing..



## glegleglo (Dec 13, 2010)

My sorority sisters were given 7 fat heads (5 of which are rosy reds) as part of a scavenger hunt. Deemed just "feeder fish" my sisters told me to just put them in a bowl until they eventually die out. Being vegetarian and unable to watch anything in distress (the same goes for most insects & arachnids) I bought a 10 gallon fish tank. I put a filter & a few lilies (from my betta's tank) anchored by a few rocks. I don't want to start setting up a tank with gravel, etc because our winter break starts in a week & I will have to move the fish tank back home for the month (it's a 25 min. drive, but I won't have car access so I can't just commute back to my apartment to feed them). So my questions are:

1) Can I just put other plants in the tank without substrate so they can grow before I set up the tank?
2) I'd like to put driftwood/giant rock/cave to serve as a center piece but I'm afraid the minnows will then reproduce like crazy. Is there any way to prevent this? 
3) Any recommendations for an easy set-up? I'm actually an agriculture major so I love plants, but I am completely unfamiliar when it comes to maintaining aquatic plants.
4) Any advice on how to make the transition (to and from) home for the break easier?

I was also thinking if the minnows die I'll probably just set something up for my betta & try to get a few other fish (that it can tolerate) in the tank instead. Any pointers would greatly be appreciated and I apologize if any of the questions seem rather silly.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

In my limited experience:
1) you should be able to put some hornwort/anacharis/other stem plants in there with no substrate and they should grow provided you have low light and there's some type of food for them, whether ur dosing the food(ie. fertilizers), or using the fish bio-load(poo) for food.
2) the minnows will breed no matter what you do, unless you seperate the males/females.

3 & 4 i have no idea. Either way, you will have to wait for other members to offer up their/better idea's as i definitely don't know it all, Hope that helps tho.


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## Vidivici (Jun 21, 2010)

I would add in what light source you plan on using as the people that have the experience need to know that to recommend plants.

Java ferns and mosses i know don't need substrate, but alas their ends my knowledge


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## Michelle_WI (Aug 18, 2009)

Anubias and java fern tied to driftwood or rocks would work really well. I've also had good success growing plants in clay pots, so maybe that would be something to experiment with. Hornwort is a common plant that grows well as a floating plant. Lily bulbs will grow without substrate (commonly found alongside the Betta supplies at petco/ walmart. If you have an incandescent hood, you can replace the stock bulbs with mini compact fluorescents (daylight bulbs- about 6500k) and that should give you good light to grow the plants already mentioned.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

glegleglo said:


> My sorority sisters were given 7 fat heads


I still don't understand what fish these are? Biggest thing to be concerned about is the cycling process. Do you have any test kits? What water conditioner do you have?

I have grown the anubias and ferns in a tank sitting in front of a south window. Hornwort I have found to be a messy plant, like pine needles. Try the anacharis. You can get it at Pet Smart.

When moving put the fish in bags and use pump to fill with air. Blowing in puts wrong type of gas in it. Could have this done at pet store. Can you put some of the water in a bucket and take it with you?


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## takadi (Dec 13, 2010)

Hilde said:


> I still don't understand what fish these are?


http://www.mblaquaculture.com/content/organisms/pimephales_promelas.php


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

Another thing you could try are floating plants like Duckweed or Frogbit. They're easy to grow - just drop them onto the water surface - and they will soak up Ammonia and other contaminants through their roots. With their leaves emmersed, giving them access to atmospheric CO2, they compete well against algae. They're also ridiculously easy to prune. Just scoop out the Duckweed using a perforated serving spoon, and I like to prune Frogbit by manually removing the parent cluster, leaving the offspring in the water to grow.

Then, if you don't want to keep your flatheads, in the Spring when outdoor temps are rising, you can take them down to your local stream for release. I wouldn't worry about spawning. If they do reproduce, stop feeding them for a couple days and they will surely eat their own eggs. It's Nature's way...:thumbsup:

Good luck and thanks for caring!
Jim


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

Hilde said:


> When moving put the fish in bags and use pump to fill with air. Blowing in puts wrong type of gas in it.


 this is absolutley incorect! you dont exhale pure co2, just a very very small amount.


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

Jim M said:


> Then, if you don't want to keep your flatheads, in the Spring when outdoor temps are rising, you can take them down to your local stream for release.


 PLEASE DONT DO THIS! if the fish are not native species this is *illegal.*


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jreich said:


> this is absolutely incorrect! you don't exhale pure co2, just a very very small amount.


Oh, well another thing I read that is incorrect. So you can just blow into the bag?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

jreich said:


> PLEASE DONT DO THIS! if the fish are not native species this is *illegal.*


Read that it is used as bait fish. Tendency to occur in isolated areas with few other resident fish species, suggesting they are poor competitors with other fishes. The fathead's invasive status in Europe is cited as the main cause for the spread of enteric red mouth disease among trout and eels there.


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

Hilde said:


> Oh, well another thing I read that is incorrect. So you can just blow into the bag?


 absolutley!


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## gregpxc (Jul 19, 2010)

jreich said:


> PLEASE DONT DO THIS! if the fish are not native species this is *illegal.*


In the description page linked above it states that they are native to many areas of the US.


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## Franco (Jun 13, 2010)

Finally a chance to use my fisheries biology degree!
Fathead minnows are native to nearly every watershed in the continental United States so it would not be a problem to release them nor illegal if you chose not to keep them. The color of the rosy reds, however, will make them more vulnerable to predation. Find a nice duck pond at a cemetery or something.


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## glegleglo (Dec 13, 2010)

Thank you guys so much for all the insight! I'm pretty excited to get back from break & start setting up something more permanent. Most of them are rosy reds so I think I'll just keep them rather than release them as long as they don't start nipping on my plants too much.


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## Sluggo (Nov 6, 2010)

Franco said:


> Finally a chance to use my fisheries biology degree!
> Fathead minnows are native to nearly every watershed in the continental United States so it would not be a problem to release them nor illegal if you chose not to keep them. The color of the rosy reds, however, will make them more vulnerable to predation. Find a nice duck pond at a cemetery or something.


 
Even if you capture minnows, keep then for awhile, and put them back into the same body of water they came from, it is a bad idea. There is all kids of potential for unleashing pathogens, parasites, etc. from your aquaria into the ecosystem.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

You might be right although I can say without doubt my tanks are healthier than the stream running through the woods behind my house. Regardless, releasing aquatic fauna back into the wild has established precedent. Countless organizations all over this country are involved in animal rescue, releasing tens of thousands of animals back into their habitat after sometimes long-term stays in captivity. From whales and dolphins to baby turtles and snail darters, it happens all the time. Also remember the millions of fish grown in aquariums or containment ponds all over the world which are cavalierly released into countless streams and lakes for no other reason than to give someone a thrill with a fishing pole. Literally millions of fish are released this way.

It happens all the time and amazingly, our fragile ecosystems tend to adapt quite well. But don't confuse this with the introduction of invasive species. That's a bad thing and a battle it looks like we're losing.


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## mossback (Aug 12, 2010)

> ... releasing aquatic fauna back into the wild has established precedent. Countless organizations all over this country are involved in animal rescue, releasing tens of thousands of animals back into their habitat after sometimes long-term stays in captivity. From whales and dolphins to baby turtles and snail darters, it happens all the time. Also remember the millions of fish grown in aquariums or containment ponds all over the world which are cavalierly released into countless streams and lakes for no other reason than to give someone a thrill with a fishing pole. Literally millions of fish are released this way.
> 
> It happens all the time and amazingly, our fragile ecosystems tend to adapt quite well. But don't confuse this with the introduction of invasive species. That's a bad thing and a battle it looks like we're losing.


I don't doubt anything said here. But it's probably worth noting that (1) for us civilians, (2) except for releasing them immediately back into the same body of water, releasing any aquatic species, animal or plant, is prohibited in most jurisdictions. We need to make sure that what we say can't be misinterpreted as advocating prohibited releases -- regardless of what anybody else does.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

Oh Geez, I give up. Someone better come put the cuffs on me right now 'cause I violated your laws just this past summer. A mature snapping turtle was driving the dogs wild in my neighbor's yard. I scooped him up and carried him (or her?) about three hundred yards to the bank of the stream behind my house. Did he come from that stream? I pressed him hard but he wasn't talking. Maybe I should have called Animal Control? They're all nice people but somehow I can't see them treating the stray snapper with the same care it got from me. They have this snare thingy on the end of a pole... and, well...

Anyway, I'm staying home from work today to facilitate my arrest. Come and get me!


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## mossback (Aug 12, 2010)

> Someone better come put the cuffs on me right now 'cause I violated your laws just this past summer.


My laws? No, they weren't my idea. 



> A mature snapping turtle was driving the dogs wild in my neighbor's yard. I scooped him up and carried him (or her?) about three hundred yards to the bank of the stream behind my house.


If your objective is civil disobedience, you'll have to try harder than that. You moved it from one place on dry land to another? Doesn't count.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

mossback said:


> My laws? No, they weren't my idea.


Well, they certainly weren't my idea. Until you guys brought it up, I had no idea they existed. Imagine a law which penalizes you for releasing native minnows into a stream, but it's perfectly OK to set a hook through it's lip and cast it live into the water where no one knows what will happen. It doesn't really make much sense to me.

Anyway, the police didn't come to get me so I started to wonder that maybe I hadn't done anything wrong. I poked around the local law books and it seems I'm not a scofflaw after all. As long as I release the snapper within 30 days and don't mingle it with other wildlife, there's no penalty. If I can't meet that criteria, I can apply for permission which I suspect is perfunctory.

I also looked into fish and for the most part, regulations are species specific. All I could find on minnows concerned the size of nets you could use for harvest, i.e. a seine net cannot be longer than 50' or taller than 5', etc. Nothing at all about releasing them back into the wild, so I guess Maryland is a safe place for minnow rescuers.

Still, it would be a good idea to read some of the regulations prohibiting the release of indigenous fish species if for no other reason than to identify which places around the country are a little over-governed. How about it? Got any examples? I found one. It looks like Michigan is a tough place for sloppy fisherman but it's OK to release back into capture waters.

Don't Dump Your Bait


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

It happens all the time and amazingly, our fragile ecosystems tend to adapt quite well. But don't confuse this with the introduction of invasive species. That's a bad thing and a battle it looks like we're losing. 

there are just to many things that can get reintroduced back into the wild thus its good practice and law to not do this for most. a example you could have a simple mutation of a plant or fish that wasnt invasive/destuctive and becomes so its not a good idea to release anything back. im not talkin about hatcheries ext ext they have diff guidelines and rules for this reason.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Wow, you guys are so serious. The guy wants to know about keeping some fish...how to keep plants, and not use substrate...:icon_roll
Larger stones might be an option. I use the flat black smooth ones in a couple tanks, they are rather large. As mentioned some plants do fine with no substrate. 
I wouldn't go blowing into the bag either...who does that? Just open the bag large at the top, capture the surrounding air in it with a quick grasp motion, and knot the bag on itself, or use a rubber band.
To transport the fish, you can just use a bucket, like a 5 gallon bucket with a lid. If it will be only 20-30 minutes to an hour, they should be fine. Air pumps that run on a battery are available though, and they are rather inexpensive.
I do agree not to release fish that have been exposed to other captive fish, or non native fish into the wild.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

waterfaller1 said:


> I do agree not to release fish that have been exposed to other captive fish, or non native fish into the wild.


In Darwin's "On The Origin Of Species", he cautions us against the practice of introducing non-native species into the local environment. Now look at us. 150 years later it seems we can't differentiate between what is native and what isn't. As far as I can see, no one, including myself, is advocating for the release of non-native species. Is that clear? Can we put that one to rest?

As to mixing native fish with non-native fish, I don't see where anyone is advocating that either. In my part of the world, just the temperature differential would make such mixing impractical at the very least, but I'm sure it's happening regularly in Koi ponds.

About the chances of releasing a mutant pathogen into the local environment, yes, that is possible, but mutation occurs regularly within that environment, hence our advancement up the tree of evolution. It's occurring on our skin right now where bacteria outnumber our skin cells by an incredible ratio. How many of us bathe thoroughly before jumping into the local lake for a swim?

And that begs the question: What do you all do with your discarded tank water? If you have ever looked at it with a microscope, you will see it is teeming with wildlife. So... what is it? Down the drain where it chances mixing with storm runoff or dumped in the back yard and right into the local ecosystem? How many are sterilizing their old tank water before discarding? And how about your plant prunings? Into the garden where some bird can use it to feather a nest or into the trash where who knows where it will finally end up?

I agree, we have strayed way off the original topic and I apologize for my part in it. But these are important questions. With Chinese Snakeheads and Hydrilla infesting the Potomac River, it's a wonder our hobby hasn't been outlawed outright.

Jim


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## decal (Dec 4, 2010)

Jim, as stated earlier, the transportation of any living fish from one body of water into other public waters is illegal in virtually all states. For example, Maryland is very explicit about this: "It is unlawful to introduce any fish species except bait fish on a hook for the purpose of angling without a permit from Fisheries Service" (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/regulations/nontidalregs.html). You may not agree with it, but it is best not to encourage others to break the law.


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## decal (Dec 4, 2010)

I forgot to mention, I wouldn't get too attached to the feeders. My experience is that they are in a woeful condition by the time they arrive at the pet store, and it's very common for them to die off at a high rate thereafter. Also, if you're not prepared to raise the fry they probably won't make it. Most won't anyway.


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## mossback (Aug 12, 2010)

The bottom line is appearances. Anything that can be misconstrued as support for actions that are generally considered to be potentially detrimental can be used to destroy our hobby. It isn't enough just to act responsibly. We also to ensure that non-aquarists understand that we actually are acting responsibly. 

Oh, and on not getting too attached to feeders: +1. Playing fish god certainly has its rewards, but there are some downsides as well.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

decal said:


> Jim, as stated earlier, the transportation of any living fish from one body of water into other public waters is illegal in virtually all states. For example, Maryland is very explicit about this: "It is unlawful to introduce any fish species except bait fish on a hook for the purpose of angling without a permit from Fisheries Service" (http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/regulations/nontidalregs.html). You may not agree with it, but it is best not to encourage others to break the law.


I don't think you're reading the regulation correctly. The term "introduce" means to add a new, non-indigenous species which we all agree is a no-no. But in the case of our fathead minnows which are native, that regulation doesn't apply.


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## decal (Dec 4, 2010)

I think you are reading your own bias into it. You can also read your state's fishing guide, page 17, where it is stated: "To import fish to Maryland, suppliers must register with the Department and comply with Maryland Fish Health Requirements to ensure that stocked fish do not impact resident fish. *Please do not release aquarium fish to the wild*, and *never transfer fish from one area to another. This includes game species such as blue catfish*." 

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/fishing_guide/2010_MD_Fishing_Guide_Final_LowRes.pdf

This is common practice in many states. For example, Texas, Oklahoma & Louisiana all prohibit the transport of live native fish between bodies of water without a permit. Many states on the east coast are even more restrictive. Tennessee recently prohibited the capture and live possession of virtually all native fish outside of a few common bait species.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

decal said:


> I think you are reading your own bias into it.


Oh geez, here we go. You must be a lawyer. The next thing we'll be arguing is what the definition of "is" is. Here are some links to some other sites supporting my definition of "introduced".

Introduced Species

Introduced Species

Introduced Species

 
Impacts of Introduced Species in the United States

SOUTH FLORIDA: INTRODUCED SPECIES

What are 'introduced species'?

Need I go on?



> You can also read your state's fishing guide, page 17, where it is stated: "To import fish to Maryland, suppliers must register with the Department and comply with Maryland Fish Health Requirements to ensure that stocked fish do not impact resident fish.


I guess you missed the phrase, "To import fish to Maryland". Here again we are talking about the introduction of non-native species which for the 20th time I do not support.



> *Please do not release aquarium fish to the wild*,


I think what they mean by this is not necessarily fish which have technically been in an aquarium, but fish we normally associate as being aquarium fish. In other words, *tropical* fish like Angels, Guppies, Neons, Snakeheads, etc.



> and *never transfer fish from one area to another. This includes game species such as blue catfish*."


Again, the key phrase is "transfer fish from one area to another" which I don't support.



> http://www.dnr.state.md.us/fisheries/fishing_guide/2010_MD_Fishing_Guide_Final_LowRes.pdf


Wow! Did you read that whole thing? Man, you got it worse than I do. Interesting that your first posting to this board should be to come out and challenge me. In the interest of everyone else involved, I would be happy carrying this discussion off the board. What do you say?



> This is common practice in many states. For example, Texas, Oklahoma & Louisiana all prohibit the transport of live native fish between bodies of water without a permit. Many states on the east coast are even more restrictive. Tennessee recently prohibited the capture and live possession of virtually all native fish outside of a few common bait species.


As far as I can tell, none of this applies to our situation but if you want to cite the specific law, I'm willing to help you understand it. For instance, the Tennessee ruling applies to "all native fish outside of a few common bait fish." As it turns out, the species in question actually *is* a common bait fish.

Back to you! (sigh)


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

mossback said:


> The bottom line is appearances. Anything that can be misconstrued as support for actions that are generally considered to be potentially detrimental can be used to destroy our hobby. It isn't enough just to act responsibly. We also to ensure that non-aquarists understand that we actually are acting responsibly.


I see. You're worried someone will catch you in the act of helping out an animal and then get the wrong impression? If I were you, I would worry more about the welfare of the animal and less about what others think. And if it's any consolation, I've released dozens of animals over the years and never did anyone happen along to witness the good deed. From raccoons to rattlesnakes, not one interloper to misconstrue I was a careless aquarist.


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## Michelle_WI (Aug 18, 2009)

Wow,
What a way to highjack someone else's thread.
Can't blame her if she never comes back.


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## decal (Dec 4, 2010)

I've been reading this forum for sometime, registered recently so I could search. Didn't have a reason to chime in until I saw you suggesting an ethically questionable and likely illegal act. 

Anyhow, you don't support transferring fish from one area to another, but you condone moving fatheads from a feeder tank into your local waters. Hm, sounds like the same thing. I appreciate your concern for the well-being of fish, but if that is your utmost priority perhaps you shouldn't be keeping fish in aquaria at all. I will bow out now, I certainly didn't mean to ruffle your feathers by "challenging" you.


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## Jim M (Aug 27, 2010)

decal said:


> Didn't have a reason to chime in until I saw you suggesting an ethically questionable and likely illegal act.


Illegal? Yes, in Michigan for certain species of bait fish. I suppose Minnesota will adopt the same restrictions given the similar topography. But I provided the link to the Michigan law. I think all who accused me of suggesting something illegal should prove that illegality, don't you? That's only fair, isn't it? If you're going to drag someone down, shouldn't you provide some evidence?

As to whether my suggestion was unethical or not, that's a harder question to answer. Ethics are much more difficult to pin down and not nearly as cut and dried as the law. Is my suggestion unethical? Let's recall the original sentence pertaining the fate of these perfectly healthy fish:



> Deemed just "feeder fish" my sisters told me to just put them in a bowl until they eventually die out.


 Is that what you would do? What about euthanasia? Is that the ethical solution for disposing of perfectly healthy unwanted fish? How about some of the other popular disposal methods like flushing down the toilet? For a sympathetic vegetarian like our original poster, neither option is an option. I guess you could take them back to the bait shop where they originated, but then fishermen would simply put them back into the watershed where you say it is unethical and illegal for them to end up? Or would you adopt them and give them a good home? What would you do? At least come back and explain to me your solution. If there is a better way, I am genuinely all ears.

Jim


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Jim M said:


> Illegal? Yes, in Michigan for certain species of bait fish.provided the link to the Michigan law. I think all who accused me of suggesting something illegal should prove that illegality, don't you? That's only fair, isn't it? If you're going to drag someone down, shouldn't you provide some evidence?


I totally agree, especially since this is about fish that are native to the U.S. It seems to me that if you released them it would be like if you are fishing and loose a few. After this is just about a few bait fish.


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