# The war against BBA: help me devise a new tactic!



## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I mean seriously, check out this algae- much of the tank looks like this and it's so hard to scrub off. that BBA is strong:

nasty BBA


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## jigabodo (May 3, 2012)

I am by no means an expert on this subject, but these are what's worked for me (knock on wood)

When I had a BBA outbreak, I basically cut the lighting hours drastically and reduced my feeding schedule. I also added a bunch of fast growing plants and got rid of the slow growing ones.

Basically, I tossed away my crypts and anubias, added a bunch of water wisteria, broad leaf ludwigia, bacopa, rotala, giant duckweeds, etc. My tank looks pretty much like a jungle now lol. 

I also upped the count of my amanos and tried to starve them. That, along with spot treating with excel really helped. Basically, excel would weaken BBA enough, which then gets picked off by amanos (and I saw them picked at those BBAs if they are hungry enough)

You should also avoid dosing fertilizers directly into the tank if you can, both in powder or liquid forms. The more nutrients you have in the water the more likely it is for BBA to utilize them. I stopped dosing liquid ferts altogether and now relied on root tabs 100%. I think that helped me as well.

I have a rather low tech tank which I dose excel as recommended but there is no pressurized or DIY CO2 system. I just didn't have the money to get a pressurized system, and I think DIY causes too much fluctuations in CO2 level which is loved by BBA.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Once introduced it doesnt just go away.

Excel is a tourniquet in my opinion to the problem
Ive witnessed black algae disapear when i changed to a sump, only to witness a more horrible strain come back.
I finally got rid of mine before i went homicidal on my snails...
Major tank cleaning. Any form of organic debris must be removed. Substrate needs to be vacuumed and turned over multiple titimes.
After leaves affected were removed, hardscape and accessories were removed. Wood, rocks were boiled for 1 hour, filtration components were put in 140 degree water for 2 hours. Anything not cookable was washed with bleach and soap multiple times and let dry.

Tank had water run through it by garden hose and drain for 3 hours with dechlorinator constantly going in. I had it on spray to keep oxygen levels high and to prevent as much chlorine as possible.

Everytime a small tuft appears now on an old leaf. It gets pulled off but is much more manageable.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Dave, I hear your pain. I'll do my best to help.

First thing I'd like is a picture of your tank. A full tank shot. I'd like to also confirm that the picture you posted already was of the BBA in your tank, right?

Do you have any other tanks?


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

Tell ya what helped me....

'I found the imbalance and the algea went away' 

Seriously, mine was co2 consistancy

But you still have to clean it up IF it wasnt handled right away.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

There are two phases that have to be completed when controlling any algae, especially BBA.

(1) First is dealing with the underlying cause. This is the infamous balance issue. And while almost everyone settles on BBA being caused by either low or fluctuating CO2, I don't believe it's that simple. It just does not explain all the cases, such as tanks like this one, with very high CO2 being dosed continuously 24/7. Because CO2 can often stop the spread of BBA, it is usually the first and often the only "fix" cited, but that does not necessarily mean it is the sole cause of BBA. And if there is more than one cause or a mixture of causes working together, then simply fixing the CO2 won't always get rid of the BBA. Nevertheless, the first phase of handling BBA is to find the underlying cause and fixing it.

(2) The second phase is to kill the existing BBA. BBA does not go away on its own. It has to be killed. There are numerous methods for doing this, and it's best to match the method to the tank's condition. More serious outbreaks require more aggressive measures.

When I hear a person is at the point in which something like BBA is completely ruining their enjoying of this great hobby, then it's time to deal with the problem full force. Everyone will have their ideas and methods, but what counts most is what actually works for this person and this tank.

Therefore, before I can offer any suggestions on how to handle this problem, I have to know more about this particular tank. I have found that pictures of tanks offer a lot of helpful information so that's where I'm wanting to start. I can't promise I can help, but I'll sure do my best to try.


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## Leaky Filter (Nov 30, 2011)

JasonG75 said:


> Tell ya what helped me....
> 
> 'I found the imbalance and the algea went away'
> 
> ...


Could you elaborate on C02 consistency? I inject a lot of C02, but it is coupled with surface agitation, gassing off most of my C02 in the evening. Subsequently, my drop checker will be blue in the morning and yellow by the time the lights turn off.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

What kind of filters do you have, and what are you using in them? What is your surface agitation like, and what are you dosing? Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrites, and what kind of water conditioner are you using?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Leaky Filter said:


> Could you elaborate on C02 consistency? I inject a lot of C02, but it is coupled with surface agitation, gassing off most of my C02 in the evening. Subsequently, my drop checker will be blue in the morning and yellow by the time the lights turn off.


My CO2 runs 24/7, with moderate surface agitation. I haven't adjusted the CO2 in months and there is no event that would cause any fluctuation.



Complexity said:


> There are two phases that have to be completed when controlling any algae, especially BBA.
> 
> (1) First is dealing with the underlying cause. This is the infamous balance issue. And while almost everyone settles on BBA being caused by either low or fluctuating CO2, I don't believe it's that simple. It just does not explain all the cases, such as tanks like this one, with very high CO2 being dosed continuously 24/7. Because CO2 can often stop the spread of BBA, it is usually the first and often the only "fix" cited, but that does not necessarily mean it is the sole cause of BBA. And if there is more than one cause or a mixture of causes working together, then simply fixing the CO2 won't always get rid of the BBA. Nevertheless, the first phase of handling BBA is to find the underlying cause and fixing it.
> 
> ...



Last fall I stripped down the entire tank, put the substrate and all the parts into a bathtup and soaked in Excel, then bleach, and let them sit dry for 2 weeks. Then I used excel daily for a month when the tank was started back up.

I recently dosed excel heavily for many, many days/weeks at at time in another attempt to kill it off. It came back immediately when I stopped the Excel, and I think it even started while i was dosing it!



livingword26 said:


> What kind of filters do you have, and what are you using in them? What is your surface agitation like, and what are you dosing? Have you tested your tap water for ammonia and nitrites, and what kind of water conditioner are you using?


I have an Eheim 2236. I have a moderate ripple on the surface of the water with a lily pipe running. No surface scum or anything. I have experimented widely with surface agitation, to no avail.

I use prime, one capful for my 54g tank after each big water change.

The water tests perfectly for everything, which is driving me crazy 

Really, I wouldn't mind tearing it down again - it's not that hard after two times already. But, I just don't see the point in doing it unless something changes in the setup that might change things.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

I'm sorry. I have been going through some of your old threads trying to figure out what you actually have. You've said its a 55 gallon and a 54 gallon? What light fixture are you currently using? Also, are you only dosing Flourish Excel? I think an Eheim Ecco 2236 is pretty undersized for your aquarium. I certainly can't guarantee you that a larger filter would fix your algae problem, but I suspect that the 2236 is getting dirty pretty fast.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Sorry, some clarification:

- it's a 54g bowfront corner tank

- I use a 30 inch T5NO about 22 inches from substrate, on a glass lid. also 2 Powerbrite strips just to light up the back, but they aren't as bright as the T5.

- PAR at substrate varies from 9 to 14 or so under the light, less near the rear corner

- The 2236 actually stays amazingly clean. whenever I open it up (monthly) and give it a once over I am amazed at how little debris,funky stuff, brown goo is in there. But, perhaps it's undersized, I'm not sure.

- I have stopped dosing EI completely now, since I'm in the process of giving up on the setup. I was doing Excel for a long time, in various regimes but Ive stopped that too until I have some plan.

When I first got this tank, I had this identical setup. Same substrate (flourite), driftwood, filter, everything. But, it was a low tech tank with no CO2 or ferts at all. I had tons of snails, shrimp, microcrabs, kuhli loaches, bamboo shrimp, etc, hanging around with some low light plants like java ferns, hygro. Back then I don't remember having any algae, really.

It was when I started experimenting with more light that all this started. So, my thinking is to go back to what appeared to work, and just add in creatures that will eat this stuff and go for balance that way.

I am also considering selling my nice GLA CO2 setup, because every time I up the CO2 enough to really help the plants (and supposedly help prevent algae) all the shrimp and snails die.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Sorry to hear about all that. I don’t have an answer for you. I would just like to point out that an algae is not caused by anything in particular. Algae simply takes advantage of certain situations. I have algae all the time in one form or other. They come and they go and some are much more difficult to deal with than others. I don’t ever seem to have any BBA. Then again I don’t use CO2. 
One thing I note from a brief internet search is that people say BBA likes an acidic environment. “ph dropping from around 6.9 to 5.4” Try driving it up instead. I have Denver water I bet the ph is higher where you live. Oh and take the wood out. 
FWIW.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

I know that things don't always work the way they are supposed to. It seems to me that the times I have been the most overtaken where when I tried to change my tank from a low tech to a high tech, and vice versa. My first planted tank was a 36 gallon bow, with flourite. I started out low tech, and increased my lighting 2 times over a 4 month period, and started co2 and ferts. I was never able to defeat the BBA in that tank, and gave up. Went to salt water. In retrospect, I think that the main thing I was probably doing wrong, was falling victim to the old beliefs about fertilizers causing algae. I was always scared to put the phosphates in like I should. 

The other time I got into trouble, was when I though I wanted to go back to a low tech tank. I removed my plants what wouldn't survive low light, raised my single 
T5HO up about 10 inches above my 29 gallon, and shut off my co2. Holy cow what a mess that was. I have noticed that it takes my plants well over a month to acclimate to big changes, lighting and Co2. In that period is when the algae gets you. I don think there is anything wrong with starting over. Just decide what you want and stick with it no matter what. If you want a high tech. Stick to it. Monitor your nitrates and phosphates until you are confident that your ei schedule is working correctly, and stick with your water changes, at least 50%. Same if you want low tech. Make sure all the bba spores are gone. I had a piece of driftwood once that was covered in bba. I finally took it out of the tank, poured straight bleach all over it, let it dry in the sun, then boiled it until I couldn't smell bleach anymore. Then I soaked it in heavily dechlorinated water for a week. I put it back in my aquarium, and it had bba on it in a week. I think some wood cannot escape it. Anyway...


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I think that I have become bored with trying to figure out the puzzle of how to defeat the algae. 

What I am really interested in is:

- how to clean up, then restock this tank with creature that will EAT algae
- whether or not I should go ahead and abandon the CO2 at this point, since I'm already in low light and the low light plants don't seem to need it

I have a nice stock of yellow neocardias in my little upstairs tank, but they can't survive the CO2 very well. If I removed or turned way down the CO2, I would love to get them going again, for example.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I would at least try and kill off the algae either way.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Here is an interesting little blog entry by msjinkzd:

http://msjinkzd.com/news/articles/algae-eating-capabilities-of-amano-shrimp/

But I wouldn't count on the taking care of the problem by themselves.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

What are ur plants? They defind the system, and this is crazy but i have experienced having too mjch c02 and not enough light and getting dark colored algae. Black by all apearances.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I used to have a bunch of blyxa, rotala, some high light plants. Now I've dropped down to some hygro and jungle vals. Plants seem to be doing ok, actually. The algae is mainly on the wood and substrate, but there is some on the plants, too.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Dave-H said:


> Last fall I stripped down the entire tank, put the substrate and all the parts into a bathtup and soaked in Excel, then bleach, and let them sit dry for 2 weeks.





> Really, I wouldn't mind tearing it down again - it's not that hard after two times already. But, I just don't see the point in doing it unless something changes in the setup that might change things.


This is actually making the problem worse. Tanks are most prone to algae when they are first setup. I'm not referring to cycling. I'm referring to the maturity of the tank. Months 1-2 are often the worst. If this period is managed well, the tank can go on to mature and be much easier to manage without algae. However, if this period is not handled well, the algae can persist.

By over-cleaning major parts of your tank, and especially by tearing it down and starting it over again, all you're doing is putting the tank right back into that difficult early period. Then it's no surprise the algae comes back.

What I see is an endless cycle in which the tank hits the algae phase, the algae is not managed well, the tank is torn down or over-cleaned, only to repeat going back into the algae phase. This cycle will not end unless something different is done when the algae phase hits.

However, I'm not sure you're wanting to work through the algae phase at this point. It sounds like you might be ready to tear it all down and bring it back up as a low tech tank. If you do that, be certain to bleach EVERYTHING that has ever touched that tank or you'll just transfer the BBA spores right back to the tank all over again, and you'll be facing BBA again.

If you still want help, I'd still need a picture of the tank. Otherwise, I'm sorry for your frustration and wish you the very best. I hope you can find a solution as I can see you're not having fun with things the way they are now.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

livingword26 said:


> Here is an interesting little blog entry by msjinkzd:
> 
> http://msjinkzd.com/news/articles/algae-eating-capabilities-of-amano-shrimp/
> 
> But I wouldn't count on the taking care of the problem by themselves.


Amanos don't eat living BBA. They only eat dead BBA after you've killed it with H2O2 or Excel.

True SAEs will eat living BBA, but they don't eat enough to control a full blown outbreak of it.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Complexity said:


> Amanos don't eat living BBA. They only eat dead BBA after you've killed it with H2O2 or Excel.
> 
> True SAEs will eat living BBA, but they don't eat enough to control a full blown outbreak of it.


Not my post:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=179696#post1899891


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## In.a.Box (Dec 8, 2011)

cut the co2 off, cut the light down, stop the dosing. 
that work for me  try it, doesnt hurt to try might work for you.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

After 2 years I'm ready for something more drastic. The CO2 is off, light is low, no ferts at all.

In the next week I will remove the fish, driftwood and all the plants completely. I can put the remaining fish into my little tank for a few weeks. I plan to clean the crap out of the substrate, but maybe not actually remove it, then take out the driftwood and give it a good scrub and (yet another) bleach bath.Then I'll disassemble the filter, probably change the media, maybe some new hoses, etc. Pretty much clean it all up.

After that I'll put some plants back in , some media from the little tank, and throw a few cardinal tetras in to start cycling. Some low-light plants, and put the driftwood back, put back up my T5NO fixture, and I'll have my 3rd restart 

This time, instead of adding ferts, adding CO2, adding anything I am hoping to try a biological approach and get a healthy population of snails, shrimp, plants, fish, crabs, and anything else that might nibble on algae. Maybe even an SAE although the last one I met was super-rude.

So, mostly I'm interested in what I can restock with that might fit this model. I have actually witnessed a snail eating BBA and leaving a little trail, so I'm pretty sure they exist. I am not that thrilled about nerites because those eggs get pretty crazy, but maybe there are other types. The neocardinas breed like crazy in this tank so that might help. Maybe some mollies or something that at least had a chance of munching algae, stuff like that 

It's frustrating hearing over and over again that I need to 'find the balance'. I am an organized person and I kept a clipboard for 2 years with all sort of levels, observations, etc. to track the progress, and I only made very small changes over long periods to try and isolate factors. I am wide open to advice about HOW to fix the problem, but 'finding the balance' or 'finding the problem' isn't actionable anymore.


Time for atotally new approach!


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Sounds like a plan. Good Luck.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

This is a hypothesis. But i have horribly high ph from the tap but not high gh or kh. Both are 5.

Since switching to aquasoil. Im running less c02 and more light and im still in diatom phase, tank is cycled. Got some green dot algae on some leaves but glass is still clean.

Even old crusty dying chewed up leaves have no bba. Ph is down to 7.2 buffered by aquasoil. Im curious if ph doesnt play a factor. Always had flourite and could never seem to get rid of bba with it until my final battle which was very successful


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Im curious if ph doesnt play a factor.


It's possible. There is some other element playing a factor in BBA. It's not just low or fluctuating CO2.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Results from
pH experiments showed best photosynthetic performances
under pH 8.5 or 6.5 for all but one species,
indicating higher affinity for inorganic carbon as bicarbonate
or indistinct use of bicarbonate and free carbon
dioxide.

http://sauber.dzb.ibilce.unesp.br/~orlando/PhotRhodo.pdf


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

How do you dose your ferts? EI dosing? If your plants aren't healthy because of lack of one particular nutrients, algae will take over. You can restart your tank all over again (vacuuming and cleaning the substrate). Trim off any leaves that have BBA on them. Boil the drift woods. Sterilizing the tank and all the filters. Do it right this time with EI dosing, 8 hours of lighting period, and good amount of CO2. Sometimes, you will still have some BBA but the key is that they should be under controlled. For me, I also do 2 40% water change per week, in additions to EI dosing and a good amount of CO2 too. In my case, it is the amount of organic load in my tank that causes BBA. I am over stocked with fish and plants. I can tolerate some BBA and certainly I won't go crazy trying to get rid of BBA completely. I think more large and frequent water change is necessary when your tank is at least 1 year old. My tank has been up for 1 year. I have never clean or vacuum the substrate because I have too many plants. You can imagine all the craps get buried deep in the substrate.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> This is a hypothesis. But i have horribly high ph from the tap but not high gh or kh. Both are 5.
> 
> Since switching to aquasoil. Im running less c02 and more light and im still in diatom phase, tank is cycled. Got some green dot algae on some leaves but glass is still clean.
> 
> Even old crusty dying chewed up leaves have no bba. Ph is down to 7.2 buffered by aquasoil. Im curious if ph doesnt play a factor. Always had flourite and could never seem to get rid of bba with it until my final battle which was very successful


I never could get rid of it in my tank with fluorite either. My tap water ph is a bit over 8.2


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## Cardoc (May 21, 2011)

It might just be fluorite that causes all the bba in the world, haha, I have a few spots on my substrate and I mixed eco and fluorite togeather and it looks like the fluorite peices are the ones that have the bba.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Good idea, but it can't be flourite. I only use eco complete in my tanks.

The first time I ever got BBA was when I ignorantly bought anubias from another hobbyist, knowing they had BBA on them. Since I had always been able to get rid of any other algae, I figured I could just get rid of the BBA. So I dipped the plants in bleach before putting them in my tank. The bleach killed the plants, but not the BBA. I've had BBA in all my tanks ever since.

The main difference is that the amount of BBA I have now is highly manageable. It's just a little bit here and a little bit there. It never really spreads. Maybe after 6 months, it'll start to spread to a few plants, but just small amounts. I knock it back with H2O2 and I'm good for another 6 months. So what I have now isn't a problem. But it does let me know that it's still there, lurking, just waiting for the right opportunity.

As I've redone my 90g and 75g as high tech tanks again, BBA has tried to come back full force during the algae phase, but I recognized the signs and took action quickly. The 90g has matured so it's no longer a problem. The 75g is on the cusp between a new tank and a mature tank so I'm still fighting back some BBA, but it's not too bad.

One thing I have found is that when plants are growing really well, there's much less of a problem with any algae, including BBA. So my main approach is to kill the algae when it appears while simultaneously working very hard to get the plants growing. When the plants finally take off where they're growing like mad, then I know I've won the war.


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

I would pull the fish and shrimp out of the tank. Leave all the plants and wood. Dose the whole thing with hydrogen peroxide at a super high level. Watch the BBA die and relax. Then do a water change and put the fauna back in. Thats what I would do.


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## shinycard255 (Sep 15, 2011)

Couesfanatic said:


> I would pull the fish and shrimp out of the tank. Leave all the plants and wood. Dose the whole thing with hydrogen peroxide at a super high level. Watch the BBA die and relax. Then do a water change and put the fauna back in. Thats what I would do.


Would this actually work at stopping BBA or just kill it for the time being until you find the root cause of it? I also am having a BBA issue and have tried a number of things to fix the issue. It's actually crossed my mind to pull the CO2 and bring the lights back to low-lighting because I can't manage to get rid of the BBA


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Couesfanatic said:


> I would pull the fish and shrimp out of the tank. Leave all the plants and wood. Dose the whole thing with hydrogen peroxide at a super high level. Watch the BBA die and relax. Then do a water change and put the fauna back in. Thats what I would do.


This has already been done twice, but through a full blown restart, bleach, etc.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Amazing development: I turned off the CO2 about 1 day ago and today I saw about 10 of the sickest, weirdest, deformed trumpet snails slowly cruising the BBA-covered driftwood. They are super small, like big grains of rice, and their shells seem irregular and broken. I think this is because the ph is low due to massive CO2 and they can't mature that way.

I have great stock of yellow shrimp upstairs, and now that the ph is back to the regular, non CO2 level of 6.7 to 6.9 I think I'll throw some in there, too. Then I plan to take the driftwood out, bleach it, scrub off the BBA and put it right back in and see if the snails and shrimp will do some nice cleanup for me.

In a 54 gallon tank, I could potentially have A LOT of snails and shrimp  and we'll see how my biological experiment goes. I might also do a week of Excel overdose and see if I can kill off the BBA enough so that the snails will eat it.

Now, who wants to buy a pretty awesome GLA CO2 setup, ph controller, 10#, dual stage, nice check value, and an AM1000 reactor? I'm going low-tech, baby!


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## Couesfanatic (Sep 28, 2009)

ha ha I dont blame you. Don't forget that BBA likes low-tech also. Its just easier to get ahold of the algae.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Ok, here we go. I took my algae covered driftwood out of the tank - it had a mushy layer of algae on it. very nasty!

So I put it in the tub today, filled the tub halfway and poured in half a gallon of bleach. It started bubbling and foaming wildly in the places where the algae had been (pretty much anywhere where even the remotest light hit the wood) and it's been going on for 45 minutes!

Check it out here this vid was shot like 30 minutes after I put it in and it had was only foaming a bit - but wow!

What kind of space-algae am I dealing with? I'm afraid this algae will return immediately, figure out how to get out of the tank, and steal my car so it can go and conquer the world!


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## ChadRamsey (Nov 3, 2011)

i have read this entire thread, and then just skimmed through it again, but, just out of curiosity:

what substate do you currently have?
and what are your nitrate lvls?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I have flourite. Nitrate levels are normal, like 0 or 10 mg/L..


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Couesfanatic said:


> I would pull the fish and shrimp out of the tank. Leave all the plants and wood. Dose the whole thing with hydrogen peroxide at a super high level. Watch the BBA die and relax. Then do a water change and put the fauna back in. Thats what I would do.





Dave-H said:


> This has already been done twice, but through a full blown restart, bleach, etc.


No, what you did with a full blown restart is not the same as what Couesfanatic was suggesting. A restart merely perpetuates the new tank-algae cycle as I explained before. Couesfanatic's suggestion of killing the BBA without restarting the tank pushes the tank through the new tank-algae phase and into a more mature tank phase.


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## syzygy9 (Aug 9, 2010)

Reading though your saga has me a bit discouraged. I have a major BBA problem in my 36G bowfront with flourite substrate. I'm using the same T5NO fixture you are with addition of Excel, but no CO2.

I was planning to increase my filtration and add UV sterilization, remove and bleach soak all the hardscape, and mega vacuum out the substrate. My back-up plan was to do step1 and then replace the hardscape and/or substrate entirely.

I may trade my fish in to the LFS and try what Couesfanatic suggested. What defines a super high level for H2O2? If that doesn't do it then I'll just skip straight to the back-up plan. Basically re-cycling the tank and starting over. My tank was great for 18 months and then was taken over fairly quickly. 

By the way, my BBA looks much healthier than yours. :icon_wink


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Yea I'm already basking in the glory of taking a new approach! So far I've bleached out the wood, hit the tank hard with 3x Excel (and will continue doing this for a while), replaced hoses and cleaned the filter massively, and generally scrubbed away.

My CO2 is officially off. No fertz anymore, I will stock the tank and use easy low-light plants from here on. 

And I'm going to grab a handful of MTS from my little tank each day and dump them in my big tank, so help the MTS population get going. Already I am seeing a huge increase in snails, but only 15 or so are visible at any one time. It used to be hundreds!

After the Excel phase is done, I am going to add in some yellow/neocardina shrimp, cause I like them and they might help keep things clean. Then I will add 3 or 4 SAE's, and anything else I can think of that would might help keep the place clean.

Then we'll see if this experiment works 

One problem already is that there is dead algae (dead, I hope) on my driftwood after sitting in a tub of bleach for two days. It looks the same, but white (white beard algae!) and I am wonder if I should have done a better job scrubbing it off instead of hoping that snails, shrimp, etc. would eventually munch it or it would dissolve.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

syzygy9 said:


> Reading though your saga has me a bit discouraged.


Don't get too discouraged. This thread exemplifies the exception, not the rule of what happens. The techniques being used are that of a knee-jerk response instead of taking the time to identify the cause and then apply an appropriate solution.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I expected that kind of response. But really, for two years I've been taking advice on the forum and being pretty diligent about following it, not moving too quickly and taking a lot of notes about everything. Anyone who has seen my setup would probably agree that I'm pretty organized and careful 

So, what is really knee-jerk here is the constant response 'fix the imbalance' followed by the suggestion to do something different. It would take more than 2 years to try everyone's advice, and some of it conflicts anyways.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

You started a thread asking for help, when in fact, you had no intentions of listening to any of the help anyone offered. You merely went about doing what you had planned on doing anyway.

If that's the way you've been asking for help for the last 2 years, it's no surprise you still have major algae issues.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, if you reread the initial thread you'l see that I was asking for help about how to restock the whole tank in the first post. So, yes, I had already decided to try a new tactic and redo the whole tank strategy and I mentioned that in the first post.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Dave-H said:


> One problem already is that there is dead algae (dead, I hope) on my driftwood after sitting in a tub of bleach for two days. It looks the same, but white (white beard algae!) and I am wonder if I should have done a better job scrubbing it off instead of hoping that snails, shrimp, etc. would eventually munch it or it would dissolve.


I'm a bit concerned about this. Is it already in the aquarium. If it is I hope you took extensive steps to dechlorinate it. That being said, the only concern I have about the dead algae, is that it could be quite an ammonia factory as it decomposes.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

livingword26 said:


> I'm a bit concerned about this. Is it already in the aquarium. If it is I hope you took extensive steps to dechlorinate it. That being said, the only concern I have about the dead algae, is that it could be quite an ammonia factory as it decomposes.


Hmm.. I guess I'm not really sure if I did it enough 

It was something like this: around 36 hours in the tub with bleach, then some heavy rinsing, followed by around 24 hours in the tub with fresh water. After that I let it dry out for about 12 hours in the Denver dry air, but it didn't dry completely I'm sure.

Then I put a double dose of prime in in the tank before I put the wood in. I'm not even sure if prime would help eliminate bleach. The fish seem ok. Maybe I'll do another massive WC right now...


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## Rev2eight (Jan 11, 2008)

I got a branch full of dead, white bba in my tank right now thinking the amanos would go to town on it. So far all theyve been doing is pick detritus off a clean piece of algae free wood. Lazy.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> I'm a bit concerned about this. Is it already in the aquarium. If it is I hope you took extensive steps to dechlorinate it. That being said, the only concern I have about the dead algae, is that it could be quite an ammonia factory as it decomposes.


its a small simple organism, the bio filtration will handle this "ammonia" easily
bleach really isn't that lethal it slowly turns into chlorine, and both evaporate quite rapidly in the presence of oxygen. even letting it dry for a few hours, most of it would be gone

i imagine at the least a good rinse was done. i've never actualyl soaked any driftwood in dechlorinated water before entering the tank if i bleach it, i rinse it and let it dry for about an hour, rinse it quickly again to remove any salts from the bleach and in it goes


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I think I'll do a water change just to be sure, since now I'm getting nervous about this.
It was a pretty strong bleach solution!

I am sorting hoping the snails/shrimp will eventually clean up the wood but if I have to I can give it a quicky scrub.


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## wizza (Dec 11, 2011)

Hi,

I'm kinda going through what you are. (not quite as severe as you though!) 

I'm my case it was a mixture of too much light and filter and circulation pumps cancelling each other out.

Here is a before and after with just applying excel via an atomizer and then straight back in the tank.....


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Yea it's amazing how well the spot treatments work! The question is, will the BBA come back


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## wizza (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm hoping not because I believe, in my case I've got the answer. (I halved the light and my circulation is now setup correctly) 
On top of that my co2 is now setup in a way that the co2 concentration is the same at both the beginning and all the way through to the end of the photoperiod to avoid fluctuations.


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## fish h20 (May 5, 2009)

I would consider getting rid of the driftwood altogether. It is always a BBA magnet. It gets going on the driftwood and spreads to the rest of the tank. Flourite and or Eco complete can be a problem also. Once the BBA gets started on the substrate it is hard to remove it.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

You know, the BBA is concentrated on the driftwood and substrate before it gets out of hand and goes everywhere. So, maybe you are right.

But, so far my little experiment is encouraging. 

I have been doing 3x Excel daily for 5 days, and the CO2 is turned off completely now. Every day I am grabbing a handful of MTS from my little tank upstairs, and the MTS population in the big tank is starting to grow. This morning, I noticed that the MTS are sure enough eating away at the dead BBA, and there doesn't appear to be any new BBA coming (of course with Excel overdose and only a week).

I really love my driftwood and the color of the Flourite, so I will see if I can keep things clean in there. But if not, that substrate is on the hit list as is the driftwood!

It's very odd how the BBA likes the substrate - I wonder if Flourite is especially BBA friendly.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I've gradually been replacing my flourite with Safe T Sorb. The bigger chunks of flourite seem especially prone to bba. The Safe T Sorb doesn't seem to get BBA, so far. I'm kind of liking the color of the Safe T Sorb better and especially the price. I've been sucking out the affected flourite and replacing with Safe T Sorb, a couple handfuls at a time, at water changes.

At $8.00 per 40 pounds, if the Safe T Sorb were to get BBA, I will suck out the affected areas and replace.


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## fish h20 (May 5, 2009)

I am a believer that BBA likes organics. Driftwood is a big source. I think Flourite and the other highly porous substrates absorb it. Even if I am wrong about them absorbing it, I think they make a great place for BBA to root and spread.
I think another key is get rid of any BBA you can see and to remember it can and does breed. The spores can survive things the algae can't. They are in the water, probably on the driftwood you just bleached, in the Flourite, in the fish and their poop, in the filter, and on the plants. You can't get rid of all the spores but the more you get rid of the better. I am not saying tear down and redo everything (that presents other problems) but things like vacuuming the substrate, cleaning the filters, and lots of water changes can help. 
I know you are going low tech and water changes cause CO2 fluctuation. I let it splash off of things to agitate it as much as possible when adding new water and do the water change just before or after the lights go off at night (this gives it a chance to off gas the extra before the morning when the plants and algae will be using it).


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## JEden8 (Jan 5, 2011)

It sounds like things are improving in your tank which is good. I fought BBA in my 90 gallon for a few months. This was before I had C02 injection but purchase 5 SAE's that were young as I heard they don't eat it as much once they grow to their full size. If that's true or not I do not know. I also increased my cleanup crew to ensure that any spare food was eaten. I still have BBA in my tank but it's manageable and haven't had to do anything with it for months. For the substrate, I just pulled out the strands weekly and haven't had any outbreaks since. Another thing that was recommended to me for algae control from my LFS was to have your lights on for 4 hours off for 2 then back on for 4 hours. I've never done this so I can't confirm it. Maybe someone else can. Don't know if this is any help or not but thought I'd post it just in case.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dave-H said:


> Yea it's amazing how well the spot treatments work! The question is, will the BBA come back


There is no new way to cure the long term issue except the basic goal you had when you started the hobby: focus on the plants.
This means one thing IME which is a lot and Amano will tell you the same thing: CO2.

Master that.
Know what poor CO2 looks like for the plants.
Know what algae appears with different intensities of poor CO2.
If you BLAME any potential cause, always Blame CO2 1st and look there. 
If you look somewhere else for other possibles, causes, go back to CO2. 

While BBA is your PITA nemesis, welcome to the club, the goal you had prior was merely to grow plants well, have a nice scape etc, correct?

Stick to the path there.

Algae killers and various 1001 methods to do so fail if you cannot grow the plants well over the long term. This is the path and goal, focus all your effort there, ignore the algae till that is addressed.

I had a CO2 issue and then it took a few weeks for the plants t recover in my 120 Gal. Gas tank ran out for 3-4 days.........no CO2, extremely high light......I thought I was turning the valve up, when I was actually turning it down after I changed the tank and swapped it out.

I should be experienced enough to know better, but Murphy really really likes me. I spent 3 years figuring out BBA, Amano said he spent about 10 years with algae issues.

Sediment BBA: Burial, just rotate the sediment over and bury the BBA. 
I strongly discourage folks from using more than the suggested dose for Excel. Use H2O2 and do not use more than 1ml per 10 Gal once a day
/every 3-4 hours or so.

If you believe the organics part, then more O2 will fry this, but.....so will awesome plant growth by adding more O2 and more O2 to the sediment which allows the invertebrate micro fauna and the bacteria to break it down like a well run tank normally.... does.

Folks kill fish and toast plants with excess CO2, Excel and H2O2.
When plants are happy, then these things can kill and eradicate algae and your labor/effort is worthwhile, if not....well you can keep doing it and this tends to hurt the plants and pisses you off. 

I agree Dave, Flourite is BBA friendly. The Black Flourite sand is much better and has a nicer look to me. Wood etc, you can do the large water changes and then Excel/H2O2 the wood directly, this will kill anything on the wood.

The BBA below the limits of the water change?
Finger nails, Toothbrush, Spot treatment etc.
Algae eaters are effective as "icing on the cake" so minor stuff will not be an issue. Also, BBA does not like water changes, it will not kill BBA.........but it does help the plants a lot. So it's an indirect thing there.

Some folks struggle with BBA, some have it for only a little bit and the CO2 was not off that much, they add SAE's or Excel and it's gone. This is true for all algae, some get luckier because their tank was not as intensely limited with CO2(more common than any other issue), had too many slow growing plants or not enough plant biomass.....or good care/maintenance etc. Many reasons there.

So not all methods for control will work: except the focus on the plant needs.
That rule reigns supreme for any and all algae control methods over the long term.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> This means one thing IME which is a lot and Amano will tell you the same thing: CO2.


Perhaps, but I was blasting my CO2 24/7 for 7 months and it was bringing the ph from 6.7 to 5.4, plants pearling, massive circulation, shrimp dead, snails, dead, and the BBA flourished.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> Use H2O2 and do not use more than 1ml per 10 Gal once a day/every 3-4 hours or so.


Hello Tom. I pulled this one sentence out of your post because I don't understand. It sounds like you are saying two different things. 1. don't use more than 1ml per 10 gallons once a day. 2. don't use more than 1ml per 10 gallons every 3-4 hours. Are you saying to use 1ml per 10 gallons every 3 or 4 hours for only 1 day?


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## syzygy9 (Aug 9, 2010)

JEden8 said:


> Another thing that was recommended to me for algae control from my LFS was to have your lights on for 4 hours off for 2 then back on for 4 hours. I've never done this so I can't confirm it. Maybe someone else can. Don't know if this is any help or not but thought I'd post it just in case.


I have run 5 hrs on, 2 off, and another 5 on for almost 2 years. I have BBA and I believe GSA. I have no way of knowing if my algae issues would be worse if I had been just going 10 hrs straight without the off period, but I do know that running the lights in this manner does not prevent algae altogether.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Dave-H said:


> Perhaps, but I was blasting my CO2 24/7 for 7 months and it was bringing the ph from 6.7 to 5.4, plants pearling, massive circulation, shrimp dead, snails, dead, and the BBA flourished.


To me, this means not enough 02. i readily drop 1.3 ph or more daily due to c02 injection.. snails, shrimp, otos, plecos, rainbows, tetras, rams, loaches. all do fine in my tank and swim around happily

i believe 24/7 may not be ur solution with that low of ph. it is my understanding that beneficial bacteria do not grow well in lower ph.
now with aquasoil i find it imperative to increase my oxygen levels more especially during nighttime when the bacteria comes out of remission and starts doign its job. the bacteria in our tanks plays a MAJOR roll in overall health moreso than just fixating ammonia


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I use CO2 only when it's needed, and Amano does the same: during the light cycle.

But you have BBA........so. I'd rethink my assumptions. I've fixed BBA issues for clients and my own tanks with 100% success. You are overlooking something. 

In my own tanks and in client's tanks, I'm never once seen it not related to CO2. You can blast CO2 and still have BBA, but the key part is stable CO2. Degassing can play a large role there.

Focus on the plants and the new growth. Once that is doign very well, then go back and eradicate what BBA is left. You should not see any NEW BBA growth.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Happiness at last 

I went back to my old light setup on my 54g tank, which is:

Dual T5HO 33w 
2 x Powerbrite 10w LEDs to light up the rear corner
1 blue LED strip (for automotive use) as a moonlight, although it's on 20 hours/day










I am still using the Eheim 2236 + Koriala Nano with a sponge filter on the intake of the filter. I run an airstone for 15 minutes every hour, just to keep things changing up. 

And I've done no ferts at all, water changes every 2 weeks, filter cleaning every month.

The yellow shrimp are doing great and multiplying, the orange platys are all pregnant, kuhli loaches having a good time and getting fat, african frog looks healthy, bamboo shrimp is in heaven, cardinals brightly colored. MTS population is huge but stable and only visible at night.

All the plants are pretty easy now - anubias and hygros, etc. and they are growing nicely! I can find a speck of algae here and there if I search, but it looks super clean in there.

I am also using my old technique of over feeding slightly 5 days a week, then starving the tank on the weekends.

It's SO hard to take a photo of a curved/corner bowfront, and for some reason you can't see the back corner even though it's lit up to the naked eye. But, here's the best my phone can do 










Ok, now who wants to buy my CO2 setup in Denver ???


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## manik (Jul 26, 2012)

Woah, what a thread... just read the whole thing through. I'm glad your finally happy with your tank. I just hope you haven't created some monster, GMO form of BBA ... then dumped it down the sewer (to now have the South Platte deal with) Thermal compost the BBA. Use that to create your next mineralized top soil, then you'll have all the microscopic predators in that soil who know how to deal with BBA, already inoculated into the MTS.


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