# Paintball Co2 system questions



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Anybody here ever use a Regulator CGA 320 Inlet - WRFCO2 or something similar to it? Experience with it?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Hilde,

A regulator CGA 320 inlet deals with the connection between the CO2 tank and the regulator body. It usually consists of a 'stem' where one end is threaded and goes into the regulator body and the other end is a pressure fit against the output of the industrial type CO2 tank with a threaded nut that holds the 'stem' tightly against the tank output. Normally a washer is used between the stem and tank output to prevent leakage.

CGA 320 assembly









CGA 320 Assembly installed on regulator body (right side)


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

If you are talking about the hydroponics co2 regulator on fleabay under the name WRFCO2, then it's probably not the best choice for aquarium purposes.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

spore said:


> If you are talking about the hydroponics co2 regulator on fleabay under the name WRFCO2, then it's probably not the best choice for aquarium purposes.


+1 for spore, the WRFCO2 is a flow regulator, not a pressure regulator.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> +1 for spore, the WRFCO2 is a flow regulator, not a pressure regulator.


You see I now very little about regulators. Just know a flow regulator won't work. 

PSI need to be around 50psi?

Bump:


Seattle_Aquarist said:


> CGA 320 assembly


So with the regulator WRCo2 in attachment I need this? Any parts I need to attach the solenoid?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Hilde,

We all needed to learn this somewhere a long the line. You are correct, you will want to purchase a pressure regulator, hopefully one already set up for CO2 with the CGA 210 fitting. Also needed will be a needle valve that will control the bubble count, a check valve to prevent water from flowing from the tank into the regulator. Also you will need some sort of CO2 'delivery system' which gets the CO2 into the tank. It can be as simple as feeding the CO2 into the intake of a HOB filter (Aquaclear preferred with horizontal media), or a glass diffuser with a ceramic disc, or a in-line diffuser like Up-Aqua, or a reactor such as Red Sea 500 (in aquarium) or a Cerges or Rex Grigg reactor (external & in-line). Typically the delivery system determines the operation pressure (output pressure) we use: 20PSI is fine for feeding into a HOB filter intake but other delivery systems may require 30PSI or more to operate properly (that is why an adjustable output on the regulator is important). Also if you are running several aquariums off of one CO2 tank and regulator a higher output pressure may be required. The system in my office feeds three (3) aquariums so I use an output pressure of 30PSI feeding into GLA 3-way manifold (with needle valves and check valves built in). Each needle valve controls one tank.

GLA 3 way manifold with 3 needle valves and check valves - $79.99









Up Aqua in-line diffuser (Atomizer) for canister filter









Bump:


Hilde said:


> You see I now very little about regulators. Just know a flow regulator won't work.
> 
> PSI need to be around 50psi?
> 
> ...


Hi Hilde,










I have no idea what that is but I have never seen it used for an aquarium CO2 setup.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Parts
> 
> 
> pressure regulator,
> ...




I have all but the regulator and CGA 210 fitting.

Bump:


Seattle_Aquarist said:


> I have no idea what that is but I have never seen it used for an aquarium CO2 setup.


It is an Interstate Pneumatics CO2 Regulator. I thought this was what you recommended.

I am hoping to get a regulator for around $60


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Hilde,

CGA 320 fitting on your CO2 pressure regulator. It can be as inexpensive as this Taprite beverage regulator (single stage / dual valve / with CGA 320 fitting) for $57.00 (on sale) plus $11.96 shipping to GA. You would remove the valve at the bottom of the regulator body (the on/off valve) and install your 'post body' equipment (needle valve, check valve, delivery system in that order). Typically I have to take a trip to a good hardware store to find the fittings I need to connect all of the components. *THIS WILL PROBABLY NOT WORK ON YOUR PAINTBALL TANK
*


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

I am the one who recommended that regulator - I've used one of them before and they are already threaded for paintball(which you've indicated in other threads that you were interested in).

It's pretty much identical - aside from not being made out of stainless - to the GLA mini regs.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> I am the one who recommended that regulator


Oops! Dealing with a sinus headache I forgot whom recommended it.

The 1 am looking at is a little different. Made cheaper so won't last as long as a stainless steel regulator. 

I think I have everything but the regulator. I connect the Tank > regulator > solenoid > needle valve > check valve > bubble counter. Have I got it right? No other parts?

Bought the Interstate Pneumatics CO2 Regulator after checking the reviews on Amazon. It had all 10s. I think it is perfect me, for it is in my price range and made for paintball tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> It's pretty much identical - aside from not being made out of stainless - to the GLA mini regs.


What size of paintball tank do you have it on? I will be using it with a 24oz paintball tank. Wondering if I will need an adaptor.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

any size of non-disposable paintball co2 tank will fit just fine.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> any size of non-disposable paintball co2 tank will fit just fine.


Thanks was worried I order a wrong part again.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

The seller told me it fits a 20oz tank. Called Classic Paintball and he said, " the top is the same. You just have to change the safety."


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

All paintball pin valves have the same thread, regardless of bottle size. I have run that exact regulator on a 24oz.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> All paintball pin valves have the same thread, regardless of bottle size. I have run that exact regulator on a 24oz.


Spore you have been so helpful. Do you know what he meant by the safety needing to be changed?

Bump:


spore said:


> All paintball pin valves have the same thread, regardless of bottle size. I have run that exact regulator on a 24oz.


What Solenoid and needle valve did you use?


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

Hilde said:


> Spore you have been so helpful. Do you know what he meant by the safety needing to be changed?
> 
> Bump:
> What Solenoid and needle valve did you use?


I don't know what he means without some context.(we are still talking about the interstate pneumatics painball regulator right?)

I used a Burkert 6011 solenoid and a Fabco NV55 needle valve. I think those might be a little out of your $60 price range though.

Just curious why you are going pressurized if you don't want to surpass that price range? I am not saying that it isn't doable if you are committed to bargain hunting, but I wonder if a DIY setup.. perhaps like the citric or yeast reactors, might not be a better fit for the price? It may even be a better fit for your tank, depending on what your light levels are, and what plants you want to grow.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> I don't know what he means without some context.(we are still talking about the interstate pneumatics painball regulator right?)


Yes. I was talking to someone at a paintball game field though.


spore said:


> I used a Burkert 6011 solenoid and a Fabco NV55 needle valve. I think those might be a little out of your $60 price range though.
> 
> I wonder if a DIY setup.. perhaps like the citric or yeast reactors, might not be a better fit for the price?


I am not going to get the same solenoid and needle valve you have, I know they will be high grade and expensive. Just wanted to know for reference.

I have tried 2 DIY setups. Yeast and citric acid. I could not get them to work. Had problems with leaks. I can spend more but trying to not do so, for I am trying to save up to buy a house. Just wanted the regulator to be around $60, for that was a bonus I got.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I got the WRCO2 regulator today. It fits my 24oz paintball tank perfectly. I have almost all of the parts I need. I am so excited. Here it is my setup *for now*. I have 2 needle valves. The second 1 I am using as a T valve. I am going try to find a T valve. I also need a 1/8" male to 1/4" NPT female adaptor and a coupler with 1/4" male NPT post.

I am going to try find the parts at Home Depot and then Victory hardware. If I don't find what I need locally I am going to try Amazon and evilbay. Any other suggestion as where to find the parts? Any suggestion for improvement appreciated.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

Glad that it is working out for you. Now down the road if you ever have a need for a higher end metering valve, it's not a big deal to adapt it to work with off the shelf parts. Even that home depot needle valve you have now should be a little easier to dial in at a lower working pressure.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I am not certain if it is safe to use 2 needle valves. For on a thread with DIY system using 2 needle valves Hoppy said," Two needle valves in series are not a good way to setting a stable CO2 bubble rate. A second possible problem is the stem packing leakage." If I can't find an L connector I will have to use it though.

Any thoughts on this anybody?

Bump: I changed the title of the thread, which was Regulator CGA 320 Inlet - WRFCO2, for we are longer discussing it.


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## spore (May 7, 2016)

There is no reason to use two needle valves(it actually might make your system more difficult to control). Just pick whichever valve is easier to dial in to your desired bubble count. Also in your picture, you have your needle valve before the solenoid. 

Most agree that the best way to configure this is: Regulator---->Solenoid---->Needle valve


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> There is no reason to use two needle valves(it actually might make your system more difficult to control).
> 
> Most agree that the best way to configure this is: Regulator---->Solenoid---->Needle valve


Yes I also agree that 2 needle valves is not wise. The second needle valve works as an L joint and connector for bubble counter with check valve. I want to find something else to take its place. Not certain what to replace it with.

I basically am doing Regulator----> Solenoid----> Needle valve. I have *Regulator* > 1/4 NPT *coupler* male > 1/4 NPT female 1/8 NPT male *adaptor* > *Solenoid *> 1/8 NPT male 1/4 NPT female *adaptor*> *needle valve* > ? (1/8 NPT female 1/4female *adaptor > needle valve) > Bubble counter. *This my setup from a DIY citric system

I may be making this more complicated than necessary. Perhaps best to take the larger needle valve off. I tried screwing the small silver needle valve, which I can put the bubble counter, on to the solenoid. It does not screw in well. I was able to connect the other small brass needle valve to the solenoid. I am not certain that it is wise to use it. It's PSI is 400.

In the picture I am missing the couple form the regulator to the adaptor. Haven't found it yet.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

spore said:


> Also in your picture, you have your needle valve before the solenoid.


Yes in the second pic I did have it there. It was there just to show the type of coupler I will have. Forgot to clarify why it was there in the second pic.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

OK I now I think I have the final product minus 1 coupler. I may not be able to use the bubble counter with the check valve. But I have a stainless steel check valve and a bubble counter.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Last year I put together Paintball Co2 flow regulated system. I was scared to use it without a pressure regulator. Then I started thinking about putting a Co2 system together again. To get a pressurized Co2 system together I only needed a pressure regulator. Found 1 for $57. Calculating my over all cost for the paintball system I came to the conclusion that it is not much cheaper that a regular pressurized system. Another DIY project that would have been better buying new. I feel safer using a paintball tank with a pressure regulator, though. True I could have gotten an aquatek regulator with a solenoid but I found that is not always stable. This is embarrassing but should be helpful to newbies wanting to DIY.

*COST*
Swagelok Adapter 1/4FIP x 1/8NPT --- 9.48	
PIC Needle Valve ¼ NPT ----------------15.67
Solenoid ------------------------------------- 13.99	
CO2 Regulator WRCO2 ---------------- 57.34	
Subtotal --------------------------------------------- *96.48*
Empire Paintball 24oz ------------------- 27.70	
Hose Barb ---------------------------------- 1.05	
Adaptors to run hose vertical ---------- 11.35	
Thread Tape ------------------------------- 1.05	
Silicone Airline Tubing ------------------ 3.70	
Steel Check Valve ----------------------- 5.59	
CO2 Bubble Counter ------------------- 5.50	
Subtotal ------------------------------------------- *55.94*
Total ----------------------------------------------- *152.42*


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Hilde said:


> Last year I put together Paintball Co2 flow regulated system. I was scared to use it without a pressure regulator. Then I started thinking about putting a Co2 system together again. To get a pressurized Co2 system together I only needed a pressure regulator. Found 1 for $57. Calculating my over all cost for the paintball system I came to the conclusion that it is not much cheaper that a regular pressurized system. Another DIY project that would have been better buying new. I feel safer using a paintball tank and Swagelok needle valve, though. True I could have gotten an aquatek regulator with a solenoid but I felt it would not be reliable.
> This is embarrassing but should be helpful to newbies wanting to DIY.
> 
> *COST*
> ...


Thank you for the cost breakdown! Can you elaborate on the specific solenoid and bubble counter you're using (and sources)? Those are very low prices for those components. There's also (theoretically) a whole lot of room for improvement in the needle valve department, but if it works, it works. Can you report on how easy or difficult it is to tweak the bubble count at a specific pressure? Thanks!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> Can you elaborate on the specific solenoid and bubble counter you're using (and sources)?


Got the solenoid and bubble counter on Evilbay. 


kevmo911 said:


> There's also (theoretically) a whole lot of room for improvement in the needle valve department, but if it works, it works. Can you report on how easy or difficult it is to tweak the bubble count at a specific pressure? Thanks!


Haven't got it setup yet. Hopefully soon. What do you mean by improvement in the needle valve department?


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Standard mounted bubble counters are usually in the $15 range, so I was wondering if you'd found a good source for them, or if you're using an inline bc. And suitable Evilbay solenoids at reasonable prices are always in high demand. Solenoids are often either too-high wattage (so they overheat with continuous use, which is not what most types are designed for), or they're mounted (which requires a mount, and possibly adapters for odd port sizes) which requires an additional purchase, or they've got tiny ports, so mounting them is a fragile endeavor, although inline is always an option. Or they're just too expensive.

As far as needle valves go, there's a metering valve thread that lists a whole bunch of options. The "1" series valve you're using is not designed for really precise changes in flow, but, as I said, if it works, it works. I don't know if it's better, worse, or similar to the flow rates of the valve type that comes with the standard prefab regulator units (Milwaukee, Azoo, Aquatek, etc.). I haven't tested the "1" series. I have, however, tested a bunch of other models, all of which, on paper at least, are more precise than the "1" series. Those include the S, M, BMG, 31, and 21/22 series metering valves (all Swagelok). I'm not saying you can't use the valve you have. I'm saying that, on paper, it's not as suitable to our purpose as several other Swagelok valves, as well as a number of valves from other manufacturers. *BUT* if it does work reasonably well, then it's definitely something to consider for others who are looking to build their own systems, regardless of what spec sheets might suggest. And it's generally a good bit cheaper than other models. So I hope you'll post your experience.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> Standard mounted bubble counters are usually in the $15 range


I have 1 that cost $14. It has check valve in it. Not certain if will use it yet. For if I use it it will be under the tank. The plastic 1 I could mount on the side of the tank. 


kevmo911 said:


> Solenoids are often either too-high wattage (so they overheat with continuous use), or they've got tiny ports, so mounting them is a fragile endeavor, although inline is always an option.


It is a 12 w solenoid. The ports are small thus using plastic adaptors.


kevmo911 said:


> As far as needle valves go, there's a metering valve thread that lists a whole bunch of options. The "1" series valve you're using is not designed for really precise changes in flow.


Well I am still in the learning phase. The 1st needle valve I ordered had the wrong ends. It is a B_1VS4. I have the needle valve that is on the Aquateck. If the 1 in the pic doesn't work I will use it. Some other 1s near my price range are Fabco NV5518 and Parker 338 Series B. Thoughts on those? 

When I get to the project I don't know. My pleurisy is acting up causing me to be short of breath. Don't feel it is safe to deal with the project till I feel better. I don't want to have to stop in the middle of putting the parts on.

You seem to be very knowledgeable about these parts. Am I right to assume you have put a pressurized Co2 system together? Do you have a thread on it? Last I estimated cost of pressurized Co2 system is came up with $200. Was I right?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

The more I think of this Co2 system the more I worry about it. I wonder if the solenoid is strong enough to keep it shut off at night. Comments?

Can a SMC AS Air Flow Control Valve work in place of a needle valve?


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

The solenoid you have, if it's 12 watts, won't work, at least not for long. That's in theory, as I've never tried using anything that high power. 4 watts is generally as high as people will recommend, outside of the standard Burkert, which I think is a bit higher. The problem is that the high wattage solenoids either aren't designed for continuous use, or they rely on a cooling mechanism. The high flow of compressed gas would do it, but we don't deal in flow rates high enough to do any good. You can try it, but I suspect it will get extremely hot and then burn out (or melt).

The NV-55 is a solid valve. Shipping is a bit high from Fabco, but still worth it. The NV-55-18 has 1/8" NPT ports, and the NV-55 (no -18 at the end) has 10-32 ports, which are much smaller. If you want to mount it directly, go with the -18, and if you'll run it inline, you can save something like $12 and go with the standard model, but you'll need hose barbs or push fittings. Swagelok S and M (newer design) series are the best that Swagelok makes, but their stock handles are tiny, so an added vernier handle greatly improves control. SMC and Pneumadyne have a couple of cheap models that are apparently workable, though not great. Caution: I know of only the one thread of a person who's used the AS-1000 valve, and there was no follow-up on the final comment. But its predecessor, the AS-1200, was workable, so the AS-1000 should be fine. Just super duper tiny. Bettatail claimed he'd tested the AS-1000 and said it was better than the 1200, but I don't know of any build threads he had using one. Again, I don't think it will be especially good, but should work for you. Parker and Brooks make some extremely low flow valves, but they're usually really expensive ($100+). I'd still recommend the NV-55 with barbs or push fittings to run it inline, given the paintball tank and small regulator. Any valve can be run inline with the correct fittings, but many are a bit heavy. The NV-55-18 is much heavier than the NV-55 as well.

Yes, $200 is usually what I guesstimate for a basic, solid CO2 rig the first time around. With practice, they get better and cheaper. I don't have any build threads, but I've built a good handful. I'm really picky about my valves, and I've found some good deals on Evilbay over the years, so I tend to use really low-flow metering valves. I like the Clippard Mouse mounted solenoids, as they're super low wattage (less than 1W) and small. There are a handful of other companies that make similar valves, and will usually fit on the same mounts, but you'll have to surf Evilbay to find them at decent prices, and mounts are rarely found there.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> The solenoid you have, if it's 12 watts, won't work. The problem is that the high wattage solenoids either aren't designed for continuous use. I suspect it will get extremely hot and then burn out (or melt).


I tried it on the DIY citric system. It seemed to get hot. 

Seems the cheapest route to make this safe is to get a good flow meter and let it run continuously. Paintball Co2 system at this thread run 24/7. Running at low bps it still last a long time. I would start it in tank without fish.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Here are some other needle valves I have. Are they good for a low flow?
1 Watts A-41 LF
2. Chinese needle valve from DIY Co2 kit
3. PIC Needle Valve ¼ NPT NV-B-1/4-MXM in the setup


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Maybe. I think I'd try the valve in the pic first. Then the DIY valve.

I'm not sure how running it continuously would make it safer, but some people go that route. I'd be concerned that a paintball cylinder has little enough gas in it to begin with, and refilling is going to get obnoxious.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> Maybe. I think I'd try the valve in the pic first. Then the DIY valve.
> 
> I'm not sure how running it continuously would make it safer, but some people go that route.


I am liking the PIC more than the others too. Perhaps may run the 2 needle valves like haril did here using the DIY needle valve.

I think it is safer to run it continuously than to use a cheap solenoid that runs hot. After rereading Jaggedfury's thread on Paintball Co2 system, I am thinking if I lower it to 1bps it will last longer. I may buy another paintball tank. Next year will look for a solenoid.

Here reading Metering/needle vales, Cv (flow coefficient) under 0.1. What is the highest Cv for paintball Co2 system?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Would this calculator help me determine the output?


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Ah, okay I understand the always-on idea now. Yes, if you removed the solenoid, you wouldn't have the danger of overheating. I was thinking you were going to just leave it plugged in all the time.

Cv isn't a standard you can use to compare valves all that well. Generally speaking, the lower the Cv of a valve, the more precise the valve will be, and the easier it will be to control the flow. But there are a handful of other variables that also impact flow, so while Cv isn't meaningless, it's only one of many variables. But yes, it would be unlikely to have any decent control with a valve whose Cv is over 0.1, and far less than that would be better. As paintball versus industrial cylinder go, the only practical differences are thread type and total volume. Pressure is the same.

Calculating output without actually testing would be incredibly difficult. You're welcome to try, and I wish you success, but it's not something I would ever want to try. Data sheets for the valves you're looking into will have more information, often the Cv, but sometimes only flow at a specific pressure based on the number of knob turns. And none of that will apply perfectly for our purposes.

Using two needle valves won't help. Either the first or second valve becomes useless, depending on which is open more.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> Cv isn't a standard you can use to compare valves all that well. Generally speaking, the lower the Cv of a valve, the more precise the valve will be, and the easier it will be to control the flow.


I was just wonder how to figure out the right needle valve to use.


kevmo911 said:


> Using two needle valves won't help. Either the first or second valve becomes useless, depending on which is open more.


Hoping it will work with the PIP needle valve alone. Just thinking of back up plant. Haril used 2 in his setup which didn't have a regulator. He opened the Watts needle valve first and then adjusted it for the final bubble rate after closing in on the PIP needle valve. Logically I was thinking that best to adjust flow with PIP 1st and if that is not enough then adjust the watts needle flow.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Hilde said:


> I was just wonder how to figure out the right needle valve to use.


Best way is to see what people recommend.



Hilde said:


> Hoping it will work with the PIP needle valve alone. Just thinking of back up plant. Haril used 2 in his setup which didn't have a regulator. He opened the Watts needle valve first and then adjusted it for the final bubble rate after closing in on the PIP needle valve. Logically I was thinking that best to adjust flow with PIP 1st and if that is not enough then adjust the watts needle flow.


Don't do that. Running without a regulator is really dangerous. If you read through the jaggedfury thread closer to the end, you see people coming to that conclusion. Flow and pressure are two very different characteristics, and only a regulator can reliably reduce pressure. 

I gave you some suggestions for needle valves, and recommended one in particular. You can take my advice or that of others, or go it on your own. But please use a regulator. 800 pounds of pressure is not something you want to mess around with.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> Don't do that. Running without a regulator is really dangerous.


I have had the parts put together for a year. Kept telling myself that I would hook it up to the aquarium after I anchored it to the wall. Deep down I was just too scared to use it without a regulator. I am going to use this regulator. 


kevmo911 said:


> I gave you some suggestions for needle valves, and recommended one in particular.


Yes I remember you quoted 1. Seeing some talk about different components used for needle valves was wondering if there was a way to tell by tech info what would work. Thinking more about adjusting 2 needle valves is too scary for me. So if what I have doesn't work I will buy another needle valve.

Been thinking my estimate of reg pressurized Co2 system is wrong; for see some use for regulator that around $200. Is that the average cost of a regulator?


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

You can still find some really nice dual stage regulators in the $50-100 range on Evilbay. Mostly used, but a few new.

I'm not sure there's a best way to find needle valves. If you're talking about Evilbay, you can pick a specific valve and search for that model. Or you can find a valve on Evilbay that you might be interested in, and do a search - here - for that valve and see what people say. Or you can find the spec sheet for that valve and figure out if the Cv is anywhere near what might be suitable, and look into it.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Last night I was reading how to start up the system. Now have some questions:
1 What pressure to you set the pressure regulator at?
2 How do you know when it is time to change out? 
3 How do you change out the tanks?
4 Is a pressure relief valve necessary?


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## KGNickl (Feb 21, 2015)

Hilde said:


> Last night I was reading how to start up the system. Now have some questions:
> 1 What pressure to you set the pressure regulator at?
> 2 How do you know when it is time to change out?
> 3 How do you change out the tanks?
> 4 Is a pressure relief valve necessary?


So what is your setup now that you plan to run? If you look into my threads I have a setup I just did that is similar to what your trying to accomplish with parts that all work well together.

1 What pressure to you set the pressure regulator at?
*I normally set my pressure @ 30-40 PSI. 40 PSI should be high enough to power any aquarium co2 delivery delivery device.*

2 How do you know when it is time to change out? 
*When your bubble counter stops putting out bubbles. Or you co2 checker if you have one goes blue vs. green or yellow. However, I always change my tanks out early so they do not get low and take the risk of end of tank dump.*

3 How do you change out the tanks?
*You just screw the regulator off the tank (don't stop turning especially when pressure starts releasing or you might stop at a point where the pin valve is still partially open and the tank is not sealed to the regulator). It will hiss for a second and then your done. If its totally empty is will just screw off w/ no hissing. You will want to keep spare paintball tank o-rings on hand as each time you remove the pressurized tank you will likely break or damage the o-ring. Also, I never let my tanks run empty as I'm afraid of end of tank dump. I doubt it would be an issue but I just avoid it. So normally weigh my tank empty, weigh it when full (so I know how much I have), then disconnect my tank from the aquarium and weigh it every 30 days or so to get an idea of how long I can go. Once I got everything dialed in and adjusted I know how many oz of co2 I go through per month. For my tank I can go 5-6 months so I normally fill it up every 3-4 months. Puts me at like $16-$25 per year for CO2 fills with no worry of end of tank dump.*

4 Is a pressure relief valve necessary?[/QUOTE]
*The WRCO2 regulator has a pressure relief valve on the back (behind the clip if your has that). The paintball tank also has a pressure relief valve. These are to prevent the tank from blowing up if it gets hot or filled to much. When pressure goes too high the relief valve will release pressure. Since you regulator is already build for paintball Co2 you do not need to worry about it having a correct relief valve.*


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

KGNickl said:


> So what is your setup now that you plan to run?


Regulator >T Connector + Safety Valve>PIC needle valve>
Swagelok Adapter 1/4FIP x 1/8NPT>L joint 1/8FIP x 1/8NPT>Ball valve>
Bubble counter with water. Using thread tape to tighten connections.


KGNickl said:


> How do you change out the tanks?
> You just screw the regulator off the tank.You will want to keep spare paintball tank o-rings on hand as each time you remove the pressurized tank you will likely break or damage the o-ring.


To avoid the entanglement of the tubing you must have a ball valve to disconnect the system from the tank, correct? I don’t see any o-rings in the regulator or on top of the paintball tank. Do you mean there is an o-ring that goes on top of the tank which the regulator screws on top? 


KGNickl said:


> So normally weigh my tank empty, weigh it when full (so I know how much I have), then disconnect my tank from the aquarium and weigh it every 30 days or so to get an idea of how long I can go.


My metric scale is too little to weigh the tank. Got a link to the scale you use?


KGNickl said:


> For my tank I can go 5-6 months so I normally fill it up every 3-4 months. Puts me at like $16-$25 per year for CO2 fills with no worry of end of tank dump


Yeh I figured it would last 3 to 6 months. Fill up is $7 for me.


KGNickl said:


> *The WRCO2 regulator has a pressure relief valve on the back (behind the clip if your has that). The paintball tank also has a pressure relief valve. *


*
You mean what looks like a bolt on the top of the tank is a pressure relief valve? Don't see how pressure on the regulator can be released with the clip on. Read that you took the clip off. I am trying to do so. Pmd*


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## KGNickl (Feb 21, 2015)

To avoid the entanglement of the tubing you must have a ball valve to disconnect the system from the tank, correct? I don’t see any o-rings in the regulator or on top of the paintball tank. Do you mean there is an o-ring that goes on top of the tank which the regulator screws on top? 
*Just hold the regulator and start turning the tank will its unscrewed.When removing the tank the only thing that needs to move/spin is the tank. The O-ring is at the top of the tank threads you can see some info at the following youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNsZeKLKXDM. Also your picture has the plastic protector cap on the tank. The threads and o-ring are under it.*

My metric scale is too little to weigh the tank. Got a link to the scale you use?
*You can usually use a postal scale or a food scale.*

Yeh I figured it would last 3 to 6 months. Fill up is $7 for me.
*Sounds about right. So much depends on efficiency of diffusion of co2 into the water. Like a bubbling atomizer will get less co2 into the water than say a good reactor. So to get the same effect you would need to pump out more co2 and much would just hit the top of the water and go into the air.*

You mean what looks like a bolt on the top of the tank is a pressure relief valve? Don't see how pressure on the regulator can be released with the clip on. Read that you took the clip off. I am trying to do so. Pmd[/QUOTE]
*Technically the tank and regulator both have a burst disk. Not relief on demand more relief if the tank gets too much pressure. Me calling the burst disk a relief valve was not the best wording. The regulator if you dial it down has a small hole that will relieve the pressure to match the pressure you dialed in. So you could crank the regulator down to zero, but you will still have pressure in the line. Just unscrewing the tank will handle relief (not perfectly) cause it will shoot out a burst of pressure that will usually damage the o-ring. Then you just replace the o-ring.
*


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

KGNickl said:


> *Just hold the regulator and start turning the tank will its unscrewed.When removing the tank the only thing that needs to move/spin is the tank.*


*
I envision dropping the tank doing that, for the exhaust from the tank may aggravate my allergies. When my allergies act up I get clumsy. I am just going to put a ball valve on the tubing before the diffuser. Then I can go outside and unscrew the tank sitting down.


KGNickl said:



The O-ring is at the top of the tank threads

Click to expand...

I found on you tube that it is hiding between the treads. 


KGNickl said:



Like a bubbling atomizer will get less co2 into the water than say a good reactor. So to get the same effect you would need to pump out more co2 and much would just hit the top of the water and go into the air.

Click to expand...

Just using a Spiral Glass Aquarium Tank CO2 Diffuser temporarily. I think I will put it under the filter intake and see how that works. Then experiment with a powerhead. Maybe I will build a reactor. Just sometimes I found the hard way DIY project cost as much as the product new. So need to research before I build


KGNickl said:



B]Technically the tank and regulator both have a burst disk. Not relief on demand more relief if the tank gets too much pressure.

Click to expand...

Well that is all I need, for I am just concerned as to what will happen if the pressure builds up due to something malfunctioning. NowI am not too worried. I just hope I put everything together tight so it doesn't burst on me. I will have the tank anchored to the wall so that the tank won't move.

Thanks! Thanks!*


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## KGNickl (Feb 21, 2015)

Hilde said:


> I envision dropping the tank doing that, for the exhaust from the tank may aggravate my allergies. When my allergies act up I get clumsy. I am just going to put a ball valve on the tubing before the diffuser. Then I can go outside and unscrew the tank sitting down.
> 
> I found on you tube that it is hiding between the treads.
> 
> ...


I don't think it will burst. A leak maybe.... a minor one you might not notice until you realize your bottle is empty in just hours or days or a large leak you will hear a hiss sound and might get cold or freeze whatever its leaking around and the tank. When there is a leak just unscrew the tank and then fix whatever is leaking.

Also, when unscrewing the tank you can have the tank touching the ground, cabinet, table, and just spin it. Then you don't have to worry about dropping it. The pressure release when unscrewing is really not that bad. Its like the pop you get when filling up a car tire when you are done and remove from the stem. After you do it 1x I bet it won't be a big deal for you.

Often buying something new and assembled is going to cost less because when manufactured they buy bulk at a discount plus you get support and a warranty most of the time. While when we pay for single parts we get little to no discount. I build when I want something of better quality, different than what is sold already assembled, or I have a ton of the parts laying around. The reason I built is there is not a compact paintball Co2 setup with a clippard mouse valve (quiet click that you need to be inches away to hear vs. a loud click you can hear across a home....) so if I bought new I would have to deal w/ a noisy 120v solenoid or swap out the solenoid which would increase my cost by about $40.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

KGNickl said:


> Often buying something new and assembled is going to cost less because when manufactured they buy bulk at a discount plus you get support and a warranty most of the time. While when we pay for single parts we get little to no discount. I build when I want something of better quality


I shall keep that in mind.

That is how I felt about my Co2 system. I wanted to stick with a paintball tank. I did not like the aquateck regulator kit.

Reading your thread on your Co2 system I wonder if I can use the 12v solenoid I have and add a manifold some how. thoughts?

I think for now I will work on getting a better diffuser. Then when I am ready to refill the tank I will think about adding the solenoid.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Now thinking of getting Clippard EVO-3-12 and then use this cheap Chinese needle valve that came with Citric Co2 system from Ebay. Or maybe get a Clippard EVO-3M-24 and use PIC Needle Valve NV-B-1/4-MXM, which is 2x the cost of 1 on Ebay. Which is the safest and best to use? I am going to wait until local aquarium auction October to get the items for I have a lot to auction off from a friend.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

This is proving harder than I thought it would. I look at the ready to go regulator and solenoid setups and I see cheap parts. So I think this will last longer. Finally ordered my parts ordered and most will be in with a week. Went for the Solenoid EVO-3-12. Seemed easier to connect all via tubing. Plan to anchor the paintball tank using a fire hydrant holder to the wall on the side of the tank. Then want to put the solenoid etc. on the bottom shelf of the tank. Thus if I need to adjust the needle valve it is easy to get to. 

Will this setup work? If you have some better ideas could you give me a link for the parts?

Regulator> Barb 1/4NPT to 1/8" > tubing > 10-32 Pressure fitting barb> Solenoid EVO-3-12>10-32 Pressure fitting barb>tubing>needle valve from Citric Co2 system w compression fittings>bubble counter with check valve>Diffuser Rhinox SpioIII

When items from China arrive will replace barb to regulator with Pneumatic fitting push in line fitting. Then will replace diffuser with inline diffuser. Also will be replacing barbs to solenoid with 1/8"NPT to 6mm push in fittings from China. Bought a few things double for there is an aquarium auction Oct 2 and I want to have my Co2 system up around that time. Next year will get a better needle valve.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

KGNickl said:


> So normally weigh my tank empty, weigh it when full (so I know how much I have), then disconnect my tank from the aquarium and weigh it every 30 days or so to get an idea of how long I can go.


What size tank are you using? How much does it weigh when it is empty and when full?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Will this needle valve work? 3 scfm @ 50 psig, 6 scfm @ 100 psig. I don't understand this.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

kevmo911 said:


> As far as needle valves go, there's a metering valve thread that lists a whole bunch of options.


I searched for those and could not find any of those. The needle valve I can find near my price range is the clippard Fabco NV-55-18.

Bought a precision needle valve from UP Aqua. Another using it said it did not work well.


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