# Couldn't this ADA-winning tank go non-CO2?



## George (Sep 11, 2004)

Interesting questions, and I eagerly await some answers from experience.

I think I remember reading somewhere that ADG have set up crypt, fern, anubias tanks with CO2 etc. and then made the transistion to non-CO2 successfully with the layouts lasting years with minimal maintenance.

It's one path I intend to tread in the future, non-CO2.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Yeah, if it's possible it's almost ridiculous not to.


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## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*couldn't this ada-winning tank go non co2*

I see no reason why it can't be done.you would have to stay away from most red plants or accept the fact that those red ones will only get red towards the top.i had a 75 gal on press. co2 for over 2 yrs. and switched to a low tech tank.it has 220 watts of ah supply compacts that were run for about six months. i've since shut off one bank of lights.i see no difference,except that plants grow much slower.tank maintenence is so much more pleasant.i do use EXCELL on a regular basis.and allso if you want to get a contest winner you would have to be very patient and get started early.those tanks entered are breath taking and my hat is off to their accomplishment.imo EXCELL goes with low tech tanks like peanutbutter and bread,if used properly. regards,cornhusker:icon_smil


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

cornhusker said:


> I see no reason why it can't be done.you would have to stay away from most red plants or accept the fact that those red ones will only get red towards the top.:icon_smil


I've had red crypts, no CO2, no problems.

Tina


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## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*ada winning tank*

I guess i should have said high light red plants,crypts will grow in almost any tank.regards,cornhusker:icon_smil


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I have mostly crypts, in my 90 gallon, due to life happening I have not had co2 running on it for 6 months or so. I backed down on the lights, ferts, and wc. I really dont have any algae issues. Defiantly not an award winning tank however. The journal is in my sig with current pics.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They some mangaed to eek by in the 1940's, 1950's and 1960's some how in the Dutch contest tanks

Long before ADA was around.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

cornhusker said:


> I see no reason why it can't be done.you would have to stay away from most red plants or accept the fact that those red ones will only get red towards the top.i had a 75 gal on press. co2 for over 2 yrs. and switched to a low tech tank.it has 220 watts of ah supply compacts that were run for about six months. i've since shut off one bank of lights.i see no difference,except that plants grow much slower.tank maintenence is so much more pleasant.i do use EXCELL on a regular basis.and allso if you want to get a contest winner you would have to be very patient and get started early.those tanks entered are breath taking and my hat is off to their accomplishment.imo EXCELL goes with low tech tanks like peanutbutter and bread,if used properly. regards,cornhusker:icon_smil


Thanks for the comments everyone.

I think I will avoid red plants in this tank. I want Spiky Moss to be the main feature. I think I'll use Excel during the transition, and then see if I can taper it off and eventually stop using it. I wouldn't have a problem with this tank having slow growth, I actually want that to be the case.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

why use excel then, if you have the equipment for pressurised start with it, then back off until it is eliminated. Excel can get expensive.


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

lumpyfunk said:


> why use excel then, if you have the equipment for pressurised start with it, then back off until it is eliminated. Excel can get expensive.


By the time the conversion is done, the CO2 rig and Eheim will be on a different tank. I try to have Excel on hand all the time, just in case.


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## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*winning tank*

Co2 is still the best way to grow plants,especially the hard ones,there is no disspute on that.but you have to have a little luck to get it right.keeping co2 in a tank can be a challenge.i set my co2 to reach ph 6.5 in a 75 gal. tank and a 5lb tank lasted 75 days.thats not exactly cheap.no leaks and a good delivery system.you have to be careful with co2 in a lot of ways,and you have to get it right before it will do your tank any good.EXCELL is not a subsitute for co2,but if it is used as per instructions its not that pricey.i think some people think that when they get an algae breakout all they have to do is start dosing high amounts of this product and it will solve their problem.it does not work that way.i've found that in my case if you start a new setup out on EXCELL as per lable instructions it really works great.after a few weeks you can taper off a little.i still dose the dry ferts ,only smaller amounts and not as many times in the week.if your co2 fails you can end up losing a lot of fish.if nothing else it is a piece of mind.and we are going for low tech to take some of the work out of having a pleasant looking tank and one to enjoy without all the hassels.regards,cornhusker,and i hope everyone had a nice thanksgiving:icon_smil :icon_smil


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

I've been doing this long enough that growing plants with CO2 is not a problem. Now, I want to see if I can have a show quality tank without it.


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

I guess hand in hand with helping plants grow is that co2 also fights algae growth. This to me has been the #1 frustration of maintaining a non-co2 tank -- patience with algae.

Since hearing the suggestion from Mr. Barr, I have started skipping water changes on my low tech tanks. Much less algae growth, due to the lack of co2 spikes. In the future any water changes I do in non-co2 tanks are going to be with water which has been aged. It's just too easy with that python!! :hihi:


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

You may want to look into a soil of heavy peat substrate, that will release organic carbon to the plants. I think it makes a big difference with my tanks.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

cornhusker said:


> ". . . like peanutbutter and bread,if used properly. regards,cornhusker:icon_smil"


There's an _improper _way to use peanut butter and bread  ?


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## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*winning tank*

Overdosing EXCELL can get you in trouble,and i think that is where some people find it expensive.regards,cornhusker:icon_smil


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## Jimbo205 (Oct 12, 2006)

> Since hearing the suggestion from Mr. Barr, I have started skipping water changes on my low tech tanks. Much less algae growth, due to the lack of co2 spikes. In the future any water changes I do in non-co2 tanks are going to be with water which has been aged.


 I am currently starting my first 10 Gallon El Naturale Tank. I have read Diana Walstad's book - Ecology of the Planted Aquarium over and over (I understand more each time). Can you explain what you said about water changes on low tech tanks. I know they go hand in hand, but what is that about a CO2 spike? Do you have a 'permalink' to where he speaks about this? (Also, does anyone know how these 'permalinks' work? I HAVE NOT seen the tutorial yet.)


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## sayn3ver (Sep 1, 2006)

check out www.barrreport.com

sign up(its free). He has a wonderful article in the forum area about low tech setups. Basically, a water change brings in fresh water with a bunch of c02 all of a sudden, thus algea spikes because other nutrients/lighting/etc hasn't been adjusted for it.


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## attack11 (May 5, 2006)

sayn3ver said:


> check out www.barrreport.com
> 
> sign up(its free). He has a wonderful article in the forum area about low tech setups. Basically, a water change brings in fresh water with a bunch of c02 all of a sudden, thus algea spikes because other nutrients/lighting/etc hasn't been adjusted for it.


that statement is a little misleading. you have to test your tap water to find out if you'll get a large co2 dose or not. if you need to let the co2 dissipate it only takes a couple of hours depending on the amount and surface area.


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## sayn3ver (Sep 1, 2006)

i too am just in the planning stages of a low tech 75g tank. The fresh water will still contain more co2 than what is probably in the tank. I mean, it seems that the general feeling is that one can use a biowheel/ wet/dry trickle/ HOB with a non c02 tank because the small amount of co2 left in the tank cannot be outgassed like high concentrations(or am i completely out of line). If so, even if we ran a bubbler in the aged tap water, we really wouldn't be outgassing any addtional co2 and thus still have a spike in co2 when we did the change. Now, i even i am planning on doing a waterchange more often than every 3-6 months like barr and walston seem to advocate, this may or may not be helpful but it seems like any longer and dissolved organics would build up to un healthy quantities, but i have no data to support my theory.

A lot of people who keep fish only tanks or tanks geared towards the health of the livestock seem to advocate large waterchanges weekly, biweekly, etc etc claiming thats how nature does it(with constant waterchanges). But if one steps back and realizes that nature itself is a closed system, with limited forms of filtration, the no waterchange angle to keeping a planted aquarium doesn't look as bad. I would gather a light bioload would make this more natural as well, athough not as pleasing to the hobbiest.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> sign up(its free).


No its not! If you want to post anything there you have to pay. Barrs method is different from Walstad. Diana Walstad advocates very little water changes


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

RoseHawke said:


> There's an _improper _way to use peanut butter and bread  ?



Yeah there is. Try to eat a peanut butter sandwich with the peanut butter on the outside. :icon_bigg


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## sayn3ver (Sep 1, 2006)

Robert H said:


> No its not! If you want to post anything there you have to pay. Barrs method is different from Walstad. Diana Walstad advocates very little water changes



its free to sign up to read.:help: 

and he recommends the same infrequent waterchanges as walstad for non-co2 tanks, just top offs.


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