# New Rotala sp.? Sunset compactica



## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Not sure what it's lacking bro, but it's lacking something. Mine grows straight and uniform. Strange since the other plants in your tank are healthy looking. Maybe AaronT can chime in.


----------



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

LOL, That's how mine looks if I don't dose water column ferts. Mine turns dark purple too as it shrivels.

I have some random stems in a few shrimp tanks that look like that. As soon as I put some ferts in it perks back up.

Looks like whatever triggered it to do that started about a month or two ago, so maybe think back to what you stopped dosing?


----------



## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Even lacking something this plant is beautiful, would love to have it.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Give it to me for a few days, I'll fix it.

I was thinking of a replacement for R. macrandra red...............

Screams CO2.

While CO2 is fine for the other fast growing more established weeds, the new plant is going to have a tougher time. And this species might need more CO2 than the other plants.

I've seen this many times with many plant species, it's a bad assumption to assume that all plants have the same ability and CO2 demand for a given light intensity, in fact, there's no support for that, but there is support for the opposite:icon_idea


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> Not sure what it's lacking bro, but it's lacking something. Mine grows straight and uniform. Strange since the other plants in your tank are healthy looking. Maybe AaronT can chime in.


When the stems were shipped, they were placed in a box too small. When I planted them I thought they would straighten out, but as you can see, they did not.



mordalphus said:


> LOL, That's how mine looks if I don't dose water column ferts. Mine turns dark purple too as it shrivels.
> 
> I have some random stems in a few shrimp tanks that look like that. As soon as I put some ferts in it perks back up.
> 
> Looks like whatever triggered it to do that started about a month or two ago, so maybe think back to what you stopped dosing?


I'm not sure what could be lacking. I was thinking Ca., but I add 1 tablespoon of Tom's Gh booster every week after my water change. Other than that, normal EI with added Fe.



StrungOut said:


> Even lacking something this plant is beautiful, would love to have it.


I agree 100%



plantbrain said:


> Give it to me for a few days, I'll fix it.
> 
> I was thinking of a replacement for R. macrandra red...............
> 
> ...


That's no fun if you fix it. I want to fix it . Co2 huh? My tank is already 7up. Maybe I should look at a different way of adding co2. Right now I have an inline diffuser and I can't count the bps anymore. Maybe it's time to get a sump? I'll bump up the co2 and see what happens.


----------



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

this plant is a thorn in my side! I have it in my tank and the color looks nice, it grows decent. But every time I cut a stem it might live for a bit and then the leaves droop and then it eventually melts and dies..I don't get this plant but it seems to love high levels of nutrients and lots of CO2..good luck for real!

Also from the look of it, looks like it needs some more light..IDK just a suggestion as they LOVE high light..


----------



## muntwo (Sep 6, 2011)

I observed similar growth in my Rotala sp. 'Colorata' recently and addressed the problem by dosing with Flourish Comprehensive and Excel. Growth has returned to normal, but unfortunately my experience doesn't help identify a specific nutrient deficiency.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

antbug said:


> I'm not sure what could be lacking. I was thinking Ca., but I add 1 tablespoon of Tom's Gh booster every week after my water change. Other than that, normal EI with added Fe.
> 
> Co2 huh? My tank is already 7up. Maybe I should look at a different way of adding co2. Right now I have an inline diffuser and I can't count the bps anymore. Maybe it's time to get a sump? I'll bump up the co2 and see what happens.


Well, I dose the same as you, so ferts ain't it. I had a bunch, it doubled in size.

Easy plant.


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Increase a bit Calcium and see what happens.....


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Co2 was bumped up and I'll add more Gh booster next water change for more Ca. It's the super compact growth that's got me wondering what's up.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

antbug said:


> When the stems were shipped, they were placed in a box too small. When I planted them I thought they would straighten out, but as you can see, they did not.


They should straighten out. They can curl in a larger box too and I use the small flat rate boxes when I can so I don't have to charge $7 for shipping like some other guys. I take pride in the way I ship plants. 

Here's how I'm keeping it. 

ADA 90-P tank
ATI 4 x 39 watt fixture 2 bulbs for 10 hours 4 bulbs for 2-3 hours
CO2 1 bps 24/7
mineralized topsoil with a pool filter sand cap
N 0.5 ppm / day
P 0.1 ppm / day
K 1.5 ppm / day
Trace 10 ppm / day (how much trace do you dose? It likes a LOT)
Excel 10 ppm / day

Water is 2:1 RO to tap. Tap is about 4-5 KH and 20 GH. 

Rotalas like soft water. They like LOW macros in the water column. If you had a tank with soft water full of different types of plants including Rotalas and stopped dosing the Rotalas will survive every time and overshadow everything else.

If you're dosing the same as Tom that doesn't mean your tanks are identical. Your water source might be different. Your filtration is likely different too. Like Tom, I too find this to be an "easy" plant, however, there are a lot of experienced growers out there that have a bear of a time growing it. This to me classifies it as difficult.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. This was in mineralized soil with no dosing and very soft water. The plants are Rotala sp. 'Colorata' and Rotala macrandra 'Green'.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

antbug said:


> Co2 was bumped up and I'll add more Gh booster next water change for more Ca. It's the super compact growth that's got me wondering what's up.


This plant grew like Kudzu with my rich water column dosing. KH's are another story. But if you live in Sac, it should be the same as mine.
West Sac and Davis have nasty tap though. 

I could simply replace the R macrandra with this plant which no one buys, but is pretty. While I'm jokingly asking Antbug for some, I would not mine getting some again, I sold the plants I got to make room for the Bacopa and the L inclinata for a problem scape spot. Antbug has been over and seen my tanks plenty of times. My Tap is around a 20ppm for alkalinity, around 1degree. 

I dose about extra 2-3ppm of Ca++ a week with very low GH to begin with. Not much.

Would adding more hurt? No way.

Stunted tip growth is a classic, he and I got the same plant, mine never did that, it got larger and redder. Real nice plant though. 

Still, the plants do nicely with rich ferts, and lower Ca+.........otherwise mine should have stunted as well, but they did not.......thus independent.... of any other factors..........it cannot be due to higher fert levels alone or a contributing factor. 

This is informative because it shows the range...... independent of other factors......... for nice growth. Then folks can focus on fewer suspects and figure out the growth issue/s.

I've never once found a plant that does not do well in rich water column ferts. Been at it for 15-20 years, hundreds of species.

Got the tanks and plants to prove it. Doing a simple replacement in my tank will quickly tell you what it is not.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I'm down for the experiment. Will you be around tomorrow? I can stop by. I'll keep one stem to see if I can improve it.

Thanks for the info Aaron. I was hoping you would chime in as well. Great pic! Thank you for sharing.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

The experiment is under way. 6 stems were just placed in Tom's 120g. I kept 1 stem to see if more co2 will help. Tom's 1st thought after seeing the stems in person was a co2 issue. The stunted growth is a classic sign.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

antbug said:


> The experiment is under way. 6 stems were just placed in Tom's 120g. I kept 1 stem to see if more co2 will help. Tom's 1st thought after seeing the stems in person was a co2 issue. The stunted growth is a classic sign.


I'm curious now because I run my CO2 on the lower side, ~ 15 ppm or so.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I will know in a few days. I'll take pics tomorrow and then we can see the regrowth over 1-2 weeks. 

The tips are progressively smaller, but they are not "Stunted" severely, so recovery should occur pretty quick. Some plants can be so stunted, the tips never recover and the plant needs to form side shoots.

Antbug mentioned he saw the same plants I had grown for a few weeks floating prior to me selling them awhile back.

As I told Antbug, plants will adapt to lower ppm's, I'm not saying plants do not grow in non CO2 systems...........nor that they do not grow in leaner systems.

Only that stable rich nutrients are not problematic and do not cause any growth issues with this or any other plant I've had my grubby paws on, which are most plants. There is a large difference in between saying what I can demonstrate and show experimentally, than merely saying hypothesis that can easily be falsified. All it takes is one aquarist to dose more and not have issues.......and your goose is cooked. Which is good, then you can move on and look for another cause or thing to rule out, this is a very informative method and we learn a lot along the way. 

All I need to do to show plants can grow well in leaner conditions is not dose a week.......

Or not dose after a water change etc.
The evidence shows that the plants can be grown with less nutrients, no one is disputing that point. I am disputing that richer ferts to the water column....are not detrimental. 

The results clearly demonstrate that is false. Antbug's tank has the same tap water, same sediment, same dosing. Thus by deduction..........those cannot be the cause...........
The differences: Filtration(wet/dry vs a Rena XP3), light(my light is much stronger) and CO2, maybe my green thumb?
He just stopped by and saw the tank and there is little doubt that it is NOT the tap, ferts etc.

It might be something else other than what I've listed, but we can reasonably say it's not the ferts/KH. The results will demonstrate that in a week or two.

I'll keep some and give back some nice clumps to Antbug is a couple of weeks..........then replace the R macrandra which few buy anyway. Folks like this plant, so I will keep it this time. 

I'm so indecisive about plants sometimes:icon_redf

I'll get a pic up tomorrow, likely going to move some plants around in the 120 gal and focus on weeds that sell and look good.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Results from my tank 2 weeks later:









You can see the damage done by Antbug right in the middle
Aaron's on the low root side and the new growth is in my tank on the top.

Internodal distances, leaf size/width/length etc, are pretty much the same I'd say, older leaves are not easy to compare but I had some from Aaron, they are pretty close to a match. In this pic, they look a little smaller, but that is not representative really I think.

Either way, you can tell something happened in the middle and it's not due to ferts/nutrient source location.

Then 2 weeks after, you have recovery.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

I just picked up some of this from Aaron. It's going in my 90P with 4x39W T5HO. I'll report my experience in this thread.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Overfloater said:


> I just picked up some of this from Aaron. It's going in my 90P with 4x39W T5HO. I'll report my experience in this thread.


Awesome! Them more people we have testing this plant in different tanks, the more will will know about it. Can you provide more info on your tank? Ferts, co2, temp....


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Hmmm....I grow this plant without Co2 and mine looks just like Toms or Aarons. I would guess its Ca or Mg related Anthony. Or as previously mentioned, lighting.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

it can't be Ca or Mg, because Tom and i dose the same and we have the same water out of the tap. With Joraan suggestion, I added more GH booster, but still no change on mine. I've also added more co2, but I had to back off a little for new fish. Light????


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

It has to be. Are you growing any other high light plants?


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

It will be growing new Aquasoil with 2 bulbs on 10 hours and the other 4 on 3 hours mid day. EI ferts, moderately hard water. Temp 75.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

chad320 said:


> It has to be. Are you growing any other high light plants?


Ca/Mg are identical. Might be a little less in my tank(more wood and binding sites, more water changes/dose a little less, and more uptake).


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

overfloater said:


> it will be growing new aquasoil with 2 bulbs on 10 hours and the other 4 on 3 hours mid day. Ei ferts, moderately hard water. Temp 75.


kh?


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Tom, are you and Anthony running the same photoperiod? I have two T5-HOs over mine slightly over a foot and they run 12 hours.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Kh was 4 on a kit several years out of date. .


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

chad320 said:


> It has to be. Are you growing any other high light plants?


Some erios, poly s, Stauro Porto Velho, l aromatica, h pinnatifida. I have some nice reds, but I'm medium light at best. PAR is 40 @ sub.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

chad320 said:


> Tom, are you and Anthony running the same photoperiod? I have two T5-HOs over mine slightly over a foot and they run 12 hours.


Good question. My light is on from 3pm to 10pm. 7 hours.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

chad320 said:


> Tom, are you and Anthony running the same photoperiod? I have two T5-HOs over mine slightly over a foot and they run 12 hours.


I only run an 8 hour, but at peak for 4 hours, it's around 120-150umol, about 3x less for Antbug's.

Might be worthwhile to try 10-12 hour range and see since he has less.


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Thats my best guess. It really doesnt look like lighting problems to look at the shriveled plant. First impression says ferts but I would up the light for a two week experiment.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

I will adjust my photo-period to 10 hours and see what happens after two weeks. 

Question.... Right now around 6 1/2 hours into my photo-period, most of my plants start to close up. Is this because they are used to the 7 hour photo-period or are they just done photosynthesizing? If they are done will uping my photo-period 3 hours hurt these plants?


----------



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Ill let Tom field that question. We have had this discussion before and he gives a better explanation than I could. It shouldnt hurt your plants at all to up your photoperiod.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

photo-period is set from 12pm - 10pm. BRING NO THE BBA :hihi:

Here is a pic from last night. Same growth even with more co2 and more GH booster.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm thinking I might remove my fish and all but a few shrimp to another tank and run the CO2 24 hours. I believe I have plenty of CO2 with my 10 hour photoperiod but stable CO2 24/7 might shed some light on these issues we are having.

Has anyone run their CO2 24 hours and had any experiences worth noting?


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> I'm thinking I might remove my fish and all but a few shrimp to another tank and run the CO2 24 hours. I believe I have plenty of CO2 with my 10 hour photoperiod but stable CO2 24/7 might shed some light on these issues we are having.
> 
> Has anyone run their CO2 24 hours and had any experiences worth noting?


Well, I know Tom is using a solenoid and is growing it fine. I do run my CO2 all day long without a solenoid and have fish. You just have to use less bps if you do it 24/7 with fish.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Interesting. Aaron, so you are running your CO2 24/7? Well I am going to get some new kits that aren't 7 years expired so that I can get accurate pH, kH, and gH readings which should be beneficial.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Antbug, you can have a few stems back that have recovered and see how they respond now.

Rather than "appropriating" yours, I just bought some more from Aaron.
This will give a good test to see about the condition now you have made those changes.

The plants I have are not stunted, so they should be in good ideal shape/provide a decent initial starting control.
The plants you have now might take a while to recover etc.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Overfloater said:


> Interesting. Aaron, so you are running your CO2 24/7? Well I am going to get some new kits that aren't 7 years expired so that I can get accurate pH, kH, and gH readings which should be beneficial.


Yeah, running an ADA 90-P (basically same size as yours) at about 2 bps 24 / 7.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Gotcha. Well it's only been a few days but the the Sunset and Macarandra seem to be doing well so far. In a few days I should have my new kits so I can have kh and gh values to share.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

The longer photo-period appears to be helping. I know my reds are looking REALLY good. I'll snap a pic of the same stem in a few days to show the diffidence.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

Ok just tested the water. kH is 3 and gH is 8. I thought for sure carbonates would be higher. Antbug what's your carbonate hardness? IME some Rotalas just don't like harder water.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

I borrowed my club's new Apogee MQ-200 PAR meeting this weekend and took some readings. 

As a refresher my tank is an ADA 90-P ~ 36" x 18" x 18"
My light fixture is an ATI 4x39 watt Sunpower with 2 Giesemann Midday and 2 Giesemann Aquaflora bulbs. 
I'm running 2 bulbs for 10 hours and 4 bulbs for 3 hours in the middle of the photoperiod.

At 10" above the rim of the tank I get the following readings with only two bulbs on (one of each type).

Surface - 176
Middle - 86
Substrate - 65

With all four bulbs on...

Surface - 292
Middle - 165
Substrate - 125

That just goes to show you how much light a good quality fixture can put out. Keep in mind too that these bulbs already have 6 months of use on them.


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

That's good light. I have a fishneedit 4x39w fixture over my tank and I have just recently raised it to 6" from 4". Maybe I should shoot for 10" since our photoperiods are almost identical albeit I'm sure my fixture is probably only half as strong as yours. 

I have been battling terrible stunting, bba and other issues for while. All plants are exhibiting the slowest growth I have ever seen in any of my tanks. Oddly enough, the sunset and macarandra seem to be doing well though they may still be living off their reserves from your tank.

I may try potting some of these plants to see if their growth improves. 3 days ago I went 24 hour co2 since my IMO my symptoms seem to indicate a Carbon shortage.


----------



## antbug (May 28, 2010)

Those ATI lights are really nice. Tom's puts out some really nice readings. 

So I added more frets and co2 for a few weeks and saw 0 improvement. I went back to my normal EI and I changed my photo-period to 10 hours over the 7 I was running before. This is around two weeks after the adjustment. I'm fairly confident that light is the issue here. Who know low light could stunt a plant. Pictures speak a thousand words. 








I still need more light, but a sump is next on my list.


----------



## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

antbug said:


> Those ATI lights are really nice. Tom's puts out some really nice readings.
> 
> So I added more frets and co2 for a few weeks and saw 0 improvement. I went back to my normal EI and I changed my photo-period to 10 hours over the 7 I was running before. This is around two weeks after the adjustment. I'm fairly confident that light is the issue here. Who know low light could stunt a plant. Pictures speak a thousand words.
> View attachment 47854
> ...


Alright, now that's great to see! roud:


----------



## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

AaronT said:


> I borrowed my club's new Apogee MQ-200 PAR meeting this weekend and took some readings.
> 
> As a refresher my tank is an ADA 90-P ~ 36" x 18" x 18"
> My light fixture is an ATI 4x39 watt Sunpower with 2 Giesemann Midday and 2 Giesemann Aquaflora bulbs.
> ...


I've almost identical PAR readings as Aaron. Growing in "New" ADA AS, misted CO2, dose whenever I remember to, & 8hr photo-period running only 2 bulbs (G. midday & aquaflora) on a TEK 4x54W fixture. My stems are pretty uniform in growth and color is phenomenal. After a month of growth now, it's beginning to throw out side shoots, almost ready for propagation. I'll snap some pics when I get some free time for you guys. Awesome plant!


----------



## Overfloater (Jan 12, 2004)

My sunset seems to doing well which is more than I can say for the macrandra. I'll try to get some pics today.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Overfloater said:


> My sunset seems to doing well which is more than I can say for the macrandra. I'll try to get some pics today.


Mac is feast......or famine. Little in between.

R sunset is fairly hardy overall. 

I've noted with Antbug some odd decay and melt based on trim methods. 
I need to keep a close note of it cut vs replanting pulled side shoots with roots etc.

Seems the cut vs other trim methods act different according to Antbug.

I have the same plants right next to each other, one will grow excellent and fat, then the other will decay and rot away. It cannot be environmental.
It has to be horticultural methods.

Placement, light, sediment, water, CO2, flow, space, all the same.
Timing post trim/method of trim etc are the only significant differences I can see.

When I top the plants, the base tends to always do very well and branches out many side shoots quickly. These grow and fatten up nicely. This method has not ever had a decay issue.

I'll have to test more with it and keep a closer eye on the differences.


----------

