# Dry Start Method with Submersed growth. ADA Colorado sand, ADU Dragon Stone



## Mitashade (Jan 8, 2015)

Looooove this. Great hardscape, fantastic stones.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I do like the large hardscape and I hope it lasts!


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## waddo (Jan 24, 2013)

Does any one have any experience with ADA Colorado sand vs Amazonia etc? How do plants do? How about the amount of maintenance/algae growth and detritus? Longevity?

Waddo


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

waddo said:


> Does any one have any experience with ADA Colorado sand vs Amazonia etc? How do plants do? How about the amount of maintenance/algae growth and detritus? Longevity?
> 
> Waddo


I have used sand in the past with success, and that was in a high tech tank.
You just have to do water column dosing, and put root tabs in the substrate.
It is comparable to using Eco Complete considering that Eco really doesn't have very many nutrients, and using the lava rubble underneath really helps to sustain the sand substrate, that is the big secret to success with this method.
The lava rubble, it also helps to hold the rocks and sand in place, so they do not lose their shape.

A lot of hobbyists in Germany have success using sand as their substrate or sand with a Laterite bottom.

Bump:


Freemananana said:


> I do like the large hardscape and I hope it lasts!


Thanks, One purpose of the lava rubble is to help the rocks and sand hold their shape. I have used this technique before and it seems to work pretty well.
And of course the rubble helps against compaction and is a great biomedia.

Bump:


Mitashade said:


> Looooove this. Great hardscape, fantastic stones.


Thanks, it is a crazy scape that is for sure. Hard to scape 55 gallon longs with large rocks considering the tank only has 11.5" of depth!
These slopes are steeper than they appear, but won't go anywhere because of the lava rubble beneath. And another reason I did the dry start method is so I can wait for the roots to establish, which will help against erosion.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

What exactly is lava rubble? Just more rocks? I did something similar, if that is all it is, with my scape. I was hoping the rocks and plant roots would help keep the sand and cut down on erosion. Your scape is much more extreme than mine and I think water changes may wash away your sand much faster. But a decent carpet with good roots would probably go pretty far to keeping the sand intact.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

Freemananana said:


> What exactly is lava rubble? Just more rocks? I did something similar, if that is all it is, with my scape. I was hoping the rocks and plant roots would help keep the sand and cut down on erosion. Your scape is much more extreme than mine and I think water changes may wash away your sand much faster. But a decent carpet with good roots would probably go pretty far to keeping the sand intact.


Small pieces of red Cinder used in landscaping etc... Ranging in size from 1/4" diameter to 1".
Well I first saturate the substrate with water to make sure all the sand settles, and then add more sand and rubble, as needed.
I anticipate that a couple spots may settle a little bit more, but
have experience making extreme slopes, so in this scape it should
be minimized more than previous attempts. You can use the lava rubble
as substrate supports for steep slopes, and I have some rubble right underneath the sand. The coarse texture of the rubble adds a lot of friction. In my past scape I did this and it kept the sand from settling. I am more worried about water flow than water changes moving it around.
But the rubble combined with a good root system will really help out.
We are familiar with hobbyists using sand bags or egg crate to build up their substrate or hardscape, but for me that is all too much work. It is easier and more beneficial, especially for a tank like this, to use lava rubble.
I will probably show how to do this in my next 10 quick tips YT video.

Thanks for commenting and checking out my journal


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Great insight on the whole thing. If I end up with a taller scape, I am definitely going to try this!

Oh! A YouTube channel? Put a link here and I'll check it out. I really do need to expand this hobby outside of just TPT.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

Freemananana said:


> Great insight on the whole thing. If I end up with a taller scape, I am definitely going to try this!
> 
> Oh! A YouTube channel? Put a link here and I'll check it out. I really do need to expand this hobby outside of just TPT.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCgHLDLnAx73zH37oySkvDWQ


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## treyLcham (Sep 9, 2014)

Looks great  Dave 


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

treyLcham said:


> Looks great  Dave
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks brother! It is going pretty good so far. I have some little Monte buds coming out of the rocks!


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## treyLcham (Sep 9, 2014)

Yea I saw that! Looks sick!! I was thinking of doing that but I didn't want to cover my whole wood with it hahah! That stuff really takes off. 


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## Hetzer (Sep 23, 2012)

Hi Dave, watched your video on this; gonna be so awesome when it matures, can't wait to see that! How long do you think before you flood the tank?

Since you mentioned Laterite layer with sand, what is your thought about its use with ADA or Contra aquasoils? worth trying or redundant?


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

Hetzer said:


> Hi Dave, watched your video on this; gonna be so awesome when it matures, can't wait to see that! How long do you think before you flood the tank?
> 
> Since you mentioned Laterite layer with sand, what is your thought about its use with ADA or Contra aquasoils? worth trying or redundant?


Really there is not need to use it with Aquasoils. You could try it and see if it really helps, but plenty of hobbyists get amazing results with just plain Aquasoil.

Bump:


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

6/1/15- the setup is 10 days old.

I have more emersed growth on the Hydro sp. Japan, and have decided to add even more hydro in a few strategic spots, one of which will cascade down a mini cave, this aspect of the scape is an ode to my original Dragon Stone scape. Which was a large cave with a large amount of Hydro sp. Japan cascading down. You can check out a video of this tank on my YouTube channel. Here is a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DWasPDh4eA

The Monte Carlo is really starting to take off and produce a lot of emersed growth, even on the rocks. I have also decided to add some S. repens to tidy up the trail, gives the path to the back a better feel, especially once it fills in.
The Parvula and Belem are starting to produce emersed shoots that are emerging out of the sand.
All of my Downoi except one have melted away. The funny thing is the one that survived never really melted and now the center looks like emersed growth.
The mosses and riccardia haven't really started doing much. I have a few spots of java moss that are standing up and look like they have attached. Some even on the glass, so I am going to leave it.
I am still using my diluted mix, but would recommend diluting it even more.
To standardize it let me tell you what I would recommend per 1 liter. Use either RO
or fish tank water. This applies to the AquaVitro line, 2ml of phosphate, 2ml of iron, 7ml of Envy micro additive, 2ml of calcium/magnesium, and 3ml of KNO3, my KNO3 is in classic EI concentrations relative to a 40 gallon. And a few drops of potassium bicarbonate. About the same as my original mix, but for 1 liter instead of the original 500ml. As well water settles at the bottom of the tank daily, and I mop it up with my sponge and try to reuse this water, but now it has started to stink really bad like a swamp now that the substrate is cycling, so lately I have been throwing it out.
Same schedule: mist 2x a day, and let the tank breath at least 2x a day as well. I run the lighting for 12hrs a day at 50% power.


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## DeLLeR (Mar 7, 2015)

I do like a new beginning and love the end. Can't wait to see this tank after two months. Good job, dude!


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## Hetzer (Sep 23, 2012)

DaveFish said:


> Really there is not need to use it with Aquasoils. You could try it and see if it really helps, but plenty of hobbyists get amazing results with just plain Aquasoil.
> 
> Bump:


Thanks Dave, of course you're quite right; I'm not looking to push the envelope on plant keeping  Gained a lot from your videos also! Very helpful!


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

6/15/15- a little over three weeks since start up.
I am getting more emersed growth from the hair grass, and the submersed form is melting away. It appears that my mosses are finally starting to stick to the rocks even some Riccardia that made the transition is sticking. Fissidens sometimes has issues sticking to rock, but in my experience usually does well when placed on wood.
A few small spots look like they may be sticking to the rock.
The Monte Carlo has transitioned to emersed growth, but isn't growing as fast anymore. I have decided to leave a hole at the top of the tank to see if this helps with growth.
And will most likely get some emersed Monte from my friend. I didn't really start out with much Monte to begin with, and it was submersed, so it makes the process more challenging.

This, like most of what I do, was to see what I could get away with.
Crazy for using sand and submersed growth? Of course, but it always makes the hobby more interesting.

If you are a beginner or lack a lot of patience I would advise using soil and submersed growth. obviously. The S. repens, Downoi, and Hydro sp. Japan are all doing great.


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## jimmytruong87 (Oct 16, 2012)

I will follow this post. You have a nice set up that I may have some idea for my new project in the future


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

jimmytruong87 said:


> I will follow this post. You have a nice set up that I may have some idea for my new project in the future


I flooded the tank a few weeks back, but didn't have any CO2 because it leaked out of my tank, and I have been really busy, so right now all the moss on the rocks is doing well, a few spots of Monte Carlo, hair grass, and S. repens are doing fine, but a lot of the Monte and hair grass melted once I flooded the tank because I didn't keep up on it. Really I should have started dosing a lot of ferts and CO2 immediately, that is key, so right now it is just sitting. I plan on buying some Tissue culture Monte Carlo from aquariumplants.com eventually. I just have no time right now. Lately none of my tanks mature quickly. I always run into some issue, but no worries it will eventually work out.


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## zetvi (Jun 12, 2013)

Awesome thread. I know you are very good at fixing problems! Hope to see it filled in soon. 


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

zetvi said:


> Awesome thread. I know you are very good at fixing problems! Hope to see it filled in soon.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Haha! Well it would be doing alright, but I had to take down this tank and my 10 gallon low tech because I am moving back into student housing now that the semester has started. Keeping only the main tank. You know me, I set up a bunch of tanks, and then redo them or take them down. Sometimes I just like setting up tanks to demonstrate, but have no real intention of keeping them. Sounds crazy, but I go through phases of being busy and then not, and back and forth.


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## Powerclown (Aug 17, 2014)

Nice thread,any updates?


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