# Help with Nitrates and EI Dosing



## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

How much should dosing nitrates affect nitrate testing with an API liquid test? I tested for nitrates on my tank and tested well above 80, but this is at the end of the week after a full week of dosing...just before my 50% water change.

Just need to know if this is due to EI dosing or I am _really_ overfeeding. This is a 125g tank with 4 Angels and about 50 other smaller fish.


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## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

That could be correct. No worries though. EI is over dosing so you could have excess at the end of the week. To be sure that your numbers are correct, you need to calibrate your test kit. Mine are normally around there at the end of the week before and before my WC.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

You can cut back on the nitrate if need be, the dosing is just the starting point. A tank with a lot of fish might need less nitrate and phosphorus.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

The idea of EI is no testing and you reset by the water changes. If you have a heavy fish load you can increase the size of the water change to 60% or even 75%.


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

I lost 3 Cardinal Tetras in the last 2 days. It was the only thing I could think that it may be.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I don't dose EI but I have read much about it and used to do it a long time ago, now I dose weekly with the PPS Pro method, it's lazy and I don't have to do the big water changes, and my plant growth is still good. According to some article at "The Barr Report" it wasn't the nitrate that killed your fish, my little quick dip test strips quote 0-40ppm = safe 80-200 = stress and your number is not that big. High nitrites could get you in trouble quicky, do some extra water changes to make your fish happy, sorry to hear about your Cardinals.


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

Thanks for the responses.

Maybe something got in the tank, I dunno. I think my nitrates may have been very close to 160. The test goes from 80 to 160 and the color was very close to it, just not quite there.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Well 160 would be stressful so that's more than likely it, although Cardinals are somewhat hardy it may have been too much. A good indicator fish would be the Rummynosed Tetra as soon as they get stressed the fish gets pale and the red nose will almost disappear, but when their happy that nose is so blood red it looks as if it will start to drip, their very pick about stress.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jrman83 said:


> I lost 3 Cardinal Tetras in the last 2 days. It was the only thing I could think that it may be.


Well, let us rule out KNO3 right now then:

These guys have bred 2x this month:









And with 300Cardinals and 45ppm NO3 dosed as KNO3, plus heavy feeding ...........



















Something else, but not EI.

You cannot rule out all possible causes, I can rule one that is not however.
Ponder this.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

150EH said:


> I don't dose EI but I have read much about it and used to do it a long time ago, now I dose weekly with the PPS Pro method, it's lazy and I don't have to do the big water changes, and my plant growth is still good. According to some article at "The Barr Report" it wasn't the nitrate that killed your fish, my little quick dip test strips quote 0-40ppm = safe 80-200 = stress and your number is not that big. High nitrites could get you in trouble quicky, do some extra water changes to make your fish happy, sorry to hear about your Cardinals.


I also can do water changes less frequently, I use less light and go a monthly routine:










1.5w/gal and 1 meter away for the bottom of the tank. I just reduce froma non limiting amount, which is how any logical method would use to as a control(hence EI). Then you reduce slowly till you hit a sweet spot, then you reduce water changes if that is some sort goal.

The nutrients have little to do with management of the aquarium, light and CO2 have 95% of that role and make like far easier. Why waste light?
Growth does not start with nutrients, it starts with light, then everything is more stable and easier.

High light disease?

EI is not written is stone and evolved from PMDD. PPS pro IS PMDD (look it up) and pre dates it by at least 8 years. I have strong reservations towards people who do not give past credit where it was due and it was clearly ripped off of the Krib and from Paul and Kevin. All 3 add exactly the same thing. All 3 require the user to adjust and look at the tank, but only one makes nutrients independent.

Thus you have a not limiting *reference* to slowly reduce the dosing down from. The goal is not necessarily to waste water/ferts.........just make them independent. This is something any user has the free will to do. It is not a method defined parameter/rule, it's a myth and assumption.

If you take the basics of plant growth starting with the entire process, light=> CO2 => nutrients, it makes a lot more sense overall. Plants will still grow with any method, but it's better and easier management and much more effective usage of the light and reduced CO2 stress. 

Then no matter what nutrient routine, your tank is better off.
Nutrients really are small potatoes compared to light and CO2.

If you are lazy, this approach makes much more sense.
That is the selling point for PMDD and EI.....but folks assume that large water changes are required, I've never once said this in over a decade.
Poster states the goal, tell folks the trade offs based on plant growth.
Like PMDD, many folks modify PPS and add more PO4, which is just reduced EI at that point. If you are real lazy, then non CO2 methods are even better.

Nothing wrong with lazy, easy, but there should be an overall understanding of plant growth to make it better, not just dosing ferts alone.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jrman83 said:


> Thanks for the responses.
> 
> Maybe something got in the tank, I dunno. I think my nitrates may have been very close to 160. The test goes from 80 to 160 and the color was very close to it, just not quite there.


It's not likely you have high NO3 in the tap, so a water change should reduce it fast. Have you run a calibration to see if the test is correct?

Test colors with an error of 80ppm+/- ain't none too good.

Any pics of the tank?
Lots of plants?
CO2?
Light?

Details like this help a great deal.

More folks kill fish with low O2/too high CO2 than any nutrient.........
Almost weekly on this forum someone does........

Water changes will never hurt, and you can do more than 50% as well or 2x a week, or once you get good and things are cooking along, then you can reduce slowly.

I have a pack of 300 in my 180, they bite my arm hair. 
I fed 3-4x a day well.

Cards can die easily when newly imported, brought into the tank, this has nothing to do with the tank.


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## West1 (Feb 28, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Well, let us rule out KNO3 right now then:
> 
> These guys have bred 2x this month:


What type of fish is this? Cory from Brazil (forgot the name Sclero-something Lol)?


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I love Tom's EI ... but at the core of it is water changes, if you try to leave it out the water change part of EI, it just wouldn't work quite right ... but all to often, that is actually the kind of thing that people do ...

A Quote by Greg Watson at your site


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## jmowbray (Dec 20, 2009)

plantbrain said:


>


Tom, how much you want for this tank? I love it SO SO MUCH!!!! Can you point me to a thread with more pics?


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

It is a nice tank and it seems all my favorites are simple with just wood and/or rocks, 3 plant varieties or so, and a single group of schooling fish.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Plantbrain,

Your quote "EI is not written is stone and evolved from PMDD. PPS pro IS PMDD (look it up) and pre dates it by at least 8 years. I have strong reservations towards people who do not give past credit where it was due and it was clearly ripped off of the Krib and from Paul and Kevin. All 3 add exactly the same thing. All 3 require the user to adjust and look at the tank, but only one makes nutrients independent."

What????? is this. What was ripped off from the crib???


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> It's not likely you have high NO3 in the tap, so a water change should reduce it fast. Have you run a calibration to see if the test is correct?
> 
> Test colors with an error of 80ppm+/- ain't none too good.
> 
> ...


I have not run a calibration. No NO3 in my tap. I know Cards are usually pretty fragile, especially if new to your tank, but at least 2 of them were in my tank at least 6mos.

The tank is a 125g, heavily planted. Pressurized CO2. Light is 2-36" T5HO, 4X39W each. No recent pics, but can post some when I get home today.

I did about a 60% water change and it was between 20-40ppm after. Will nitrates from the nitrification process and nitrates from dosed KNO3 register all the same on an API test kit? I assume so, but not sure. I have read statements on here that sounds if they are not the same.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

jrman83 said:


> Will nitrates from the nitrification process and nitrates from dosed KNO3 register all the same on an API test kit? I assume so, but not sure. I have read statements on here that sounds if they are not the same.


NO3 should register on your test kit whether it's produced by your filter (organic) or dosed via KNO3 (synthetic). If you threw 5lbs of fish guts (organic) in your tank or you poured some ammonia straight from the bottle (synthetic) in your tank, you'd expect both to increase your ammonia readings. 

What is the pH of your tank? NO3 isn't as available to plants in acidic water.

What was the average NO3 level prior to dosing?

The big issue here is why the ferts aren't being absorbed.


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

My ph is around 7.8. I get 8.2 out of my tap, but mix 50/50 RODI water. CO2 will take me down to around 7.0-7.2. NO3 is always in the 20-40 range after my water change before the first dose. Usually don't test during the week.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

How much co2 are you injecting? Do you have a reactor for it?


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