# Missing Cardinal Tetras



## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

I have a 100g planted tank setup currently with,

3 dwarf Gourami (neon, blue, fire)
5 oto
2 Blue Rams
2 Cory Cats
14 Cardinals

I introduced the cardinals on friday and they were doing well, eating and schooling. Now however I am noticing that many of them are missing. I am down to 8 cardinals of which 1 is staying away from all the others. Does anyone have any idea whats going on? I have not found any bodies in the tank except for 1 which was on the filter inlet and missing most of his tail. 

Is it possible my gourami's are eating the cardinals? The otos and cory cats are very small, about the same size as the tetra's. The gouramis are a little bigger at 2-2.5 inches.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Chances are pretty good that they are either hiding in your plants, or possibly dead from other reasons, but I don't think your gouramis ate them.


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

My plants have not grown in yet to the point where 6 cardinals would be able to hide from me looking for a while. 

I thought that them being eaten was probably not the problem, any idea what might have happen to the bodies then? I can get some more at the sale price if I can find the bodies =)


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Ashaman0 said:


> My plants have not grown in yet to the point where 6 cardinals would be able to hide from me looking for a while.
> 
> I thought that them being eaten was probably not the problem, any idea what might have happen to the bodies then? I can get some more at the sale price if I can find the bodies =)


Of all of the tetras I have owned, cardinals always seem to acclimate very poorly. Almost any time I have added them I have lost a large % within a few days. I would pull up any hardscape you may have in the tank, check your filter(s) and maybe poke around your substrate a bit. Two days is way too soon for them to decay or be completely eaten, but 100g is a lot of water and I have lost fishes in a 10g that were never seen again. Good luck!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Tetra's never seem to last for me either. Gave up on them. lol.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

GeToChKn said:


> Tetra's never seem to last for me either. Gave up on them. lol.


I have had great luck with Rummynose Tetras, Glowlight Tetras and Bloodfin Tetras, which works out great because they are super hardy schooling fish. Neons and Cardinals always seem a lot more delicate than those three, so I tend to stick with them.


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## Byron (Aug 20, 2009)

It might be the water parameters. What is your GH and pH? Cardinals are greatly affected by both of these. Any any significant change from store/bag water to the tank could be detrimental.

Were they wild caught or tank raised cardinals? The latter are appearing in some stores, though their susceptibility to hard water and basic pH might well remain regardless.

Byron.


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Sorry you're having problems with your cardinals. I'm in Los Angeles and suspect San Diego might have the same hard water or near to it as we do. I've kept cardinals for many, many years and have lost many for no apparent reason. I have some questions to ask before anyone here can determine what happened so you don't repeat the problem.

1. How big are these new cardinals? Smaller in size is more difficult to adapt.

2. How long did the shop have them? Go ahead and ASK them. I think it's better to get them after a week of being in the shop.

3. How long were they in your tank?

4. Did you see the entire school eat in your tank? Where some of them really thin looking?

5. How did you acclimate them to your tank? I don't this is the the cause because the gouramis are pretty sensitive and they are doing okay.

6. Did the store have them in a tank using RO water and do you use RO at home? Cardinals CAN live in our hard L.A. tap water and do just fine. But if the store uses RO than you must acclimate them to your tank by slowly do a water exchange with the bag water and your tank water. Take a pH reading of the bag water and compare it to yours. The bigger the difference the longer and smaller does of the water exchange. It doesn't sound like yours had pH shock since they were eating.

7. Where did you buy these fish? Chain pet stores have LOTS of problems.

The last of my cardinals died in my planted tank after being in the over 8 years. I only use our tap water and they were beautiful. My GUESS with yours is they were a bad shipment. The way they were handled from the supplier to the shop usually is the problem. Also our local chain pet shops, in general, handle fish VERY POORLY and have a high mortality rate. 

Good luck with your tank, it's a beautiful size.


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

Look in your filter. You may find the bodies in there, unfortunately.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

If you happen to have an open top tank, you check the surrounding area for jumpers. IMHO, it's unlikely that dwarf Gouramis are the culprits. Good luck ...


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

I should also add that I found a live neon in the bottom of my Aquaclear filter. I took him out and added him back to the tank and he was fine. I ended up having to cover the intake with sponge. Some neons and cardinals are so tiny when you purchase them they can get sucked up by the filter.


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

I have not finished building the roof of my tank yet, however its a good 8 inches to the top of the cover so I doubt they are jumping out.

A little update, I am down to 4 today =(

I only found one more body on the filter intake. I will break down the filters tonight and see if I find any bodies in there. 

These cardinals were fairly small, they are all from petsmart, they are having a $1 sale this month and you have to get them the day they get their shipment in or they are sold out.

I am thinking of switching to rummy-nose tetra's which was my second choice. Are they a little easier to introduce? I don't want to run into the same problem with another kind of tetra?

Heres a few images of the tank.
http://imgur.com/a/zSBcC#0


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Do you by any chance have any adult amano shrimp in the tank? A few of them can easily dispose of a dead fish overnight. 

If not, then you're cardinals are either hiding, or getting sucked into your filter, or are dead and rotting somewhere.

You should also check your ammonia and nitrites just to be sure that the water parameters are good.

Curious - how did you introduce the cardinals to your tank? Drip-acclimate, or scoop and drop?


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Cardinals when they are alive maybe to big for the other fish to eat but, when they are dead, their bodies will be eaten with realish. When I've had Cardinals die on me, I never have bodies to bring back to the LFS for exchange.


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

No shrimp yet, all thought I will be adding some amano and possibly red cherry shrimp soon. Ammonia and Nitrites were both zero when I added them. I am going to to a water change and test the parameters again tonight.


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

I'd say that the problem is the size of the fish and the handling at PetSmart. That's a deadly combination right there. 

It's how PetSmart distributes fish from a central point to the shops. I don't know the details of how they distribute from a central point to the shops. It's just the repeated horror stories, all with a familiar tune. Most chain pet stores do not handle distribution of fish well. Each shop can have really good people, but it's already too late by the time fish get to them.

Cardinals are very difficult. They do pretty well if you get them over 1/2" in length.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Tenor1 said:


> I'd say that the problem is the size of the fish and the handling at PetSmart. That's a deadly combination right there.
> 
> It's how PetSmart distributes fish from a central point to the shops. I don't know the details of how they distribute from a central point to the shops. It's just the repeated horror stories, all with a familiar tune. Most chain pet stores do not handle distribution of fish well. Each shop can have really good people, but it's already too late by the time fish get to them.
> 
> Cardinals are very difficult. They do pretty well if you get them over 1/2" in length.


I worked for Petsmart in the mid-90's, and here in FL all stock was drop-shipped directly from Segrest, which is pretty local. They actually handle the livestock pretty well. So does Petco, where I also worked. In both stores, some species like Zebra Danios and Gouramis did great while a lot of the cardinals and neons did not do well at all. Cardinals are by far the worst I have seen for mortality rate; this is true both among myself and other hobby keepers as well as retailers I have worked for and LFS that I have purchased from. The most hardy tetra species are in order 1) Glowlight Tetras, 2) Rummy Nose and 3) Bloodfin. These are all schooling fish, but best of all you can get a group of about 10 each and they will all school together. (I have a 40g with a school this size) Of course this is just my experience, but unless you have a great LFS, which means you are going to have to pay $3 per fish, you will probably not have too much luck with them. They just do not ship well, period.


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## williamsonaaron (Jan 27, 2010)

I've had great success with Cardinals.

What temperature is your tank, Cardinals need 78+ and recommend 82 to 84. Are there good hiding spots? You can try introducing some tannins to the water as well to make them feel more at home and the water parms more to their liking I use tetra brand blackwater conditioner.


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

Water temperature is between 80-82. I had it higher, around 85, since I am hoping to make this a discus tank someday, but I lowered it to save on energy costs.

There is some tannis in the water from the wood I have, but not a whole lot and there should be plenty of places to hide, its a big tank.


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Hi Wetworks, it's good to know someone that worked at Petsmart and hear how things work.

Unfortunately, my local Petsmart has the worse record of any pet shop around. It must be the store itself and not the entire system. My brother tried for years and finally gave up. I almost expect the LFS's to berate their competition, so they really don't count. 

I think it's the size plus the handling that really matters for cardinals and neons. A funny thing about cardinals is in 1960 they cost $2.00 and in 2012 they still cost $2.00. It was very expensive back then and really cheap now. 

A question for you Wetworks, what would you say is the percentage that die in a shipment and was that fairly consistent with the neons and cardinals?

Thanks for your input.


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## williamsonaaron (Jan 27, 2010)

Ashaman0 said:


> Water temperature is between 80-82. I had it higher, around 85, since I am hoping to make this a discus tank someday, but I lowered it to save on energy costs.
> 
> There is some tannis in the water from the wood I have, but not a whole lot and there should be plenty of places to hide, its a big tank.



do you know your avg ph? Mine is in the area of 7.2 to 7.6 depending on water changes.


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Do higher temps needed for a discus tank hinder or limit the types of plants you can use in the tank?


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

Just came home to find that my ammonia has jumped from 0 to 0.5 and found out that my girlfriends brother who has been staying with us has been feeding the fish multiple times a day while I am at work. 

Something is now seriously wrong with one of my gourami's he can't seem to keep himself level in the water, and its not looking like he is going to make it. I am also missing one of my cory cats, but hopefully he is just hiding somewhere. I did a thorough search through the tank and managed to find about 5 cardinal bodies which I removed and I did a water change. 

I could murder this little punk, he also managed to break my dishwasher somehow.


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## williamsonaaron (Jan 27, 2010)

Ashaman0 said:


> Just came home to find that my ammonia has jumped from 0 to 0.5 and found out that my girlfriends brother who has been staying with us has been feeding the fish multiple times a day while I am at work.
> 
> Something is now seriously wrong with one of my gourami's he can't seem to keep himself level in the water, and its not looking like he is going to make it. I am also missing one of my cory cats, but hopefully he is just hiding somewhere. I did a thorough search through the tank and managed to find about 5 cardinal bodies which I removed and I did a water change.
> 
> I could murder this little punk, he also managed to break my dishwasher somehow.



How old is this little guy? Maybe he didn't know any better. Over feeding can be really bad and might be the cause of some of your issues though.


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

He is 20. It seems he cant touch anything without messing it up. He seems to break everything he touches in my house.


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

Ashaman0 said:


> He is 20. It seems he cant touch anything without messing it up. He seems to break everything he touches in my house.


Sounds like a beating is in order.


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## jersysman (Jan 7, 2007)

He'd definitely be out with the stars tonight!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

*Buying Cardinals at Petsmart on sale*

This is how I deal with fish on sale


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## Ashaman0 (Jan 12, 2012)

Thats a good idea. The sale ends today, and I found about 7 or 8 dead fish, so I might go in and get a refund and see if I can get a rain check for the $1 price!


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## wetworks (Jul 22, 2011)

That sounds like the best way to handle those sales. When I worked for petsmart back in the day they did not have rain checks. (Or I did not know about it.)


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

OVT, that is a fantastic tip, thanks for sharing it with us.


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