# Long-term overdosing of Excel = Excel resistant BBA! (UPDATE: hypothesis disproven)



## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

why you put excel if you have co2 on?


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

For Algae control purposes. In addition to providing carbon, it is also an algaecide. 

(Although the people at Seachem make it clear that they cannot officially advertise it as such without Government approval. It's like an off-label use of a medication.)


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

i wouldnt use it over dosed for more the a week
its expensive
it has a negative effect on bacteria populations
it has a negative effect on some plants
cant be good for fish, shrimp
possible resistance of bba over time


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Ya... After the big dose my downoi melted away entirely, my rotala lost leaves, and my bacopa looks a bit off. No adverse effects to the fauna noted. I've never read anything, before now, about Excel killing bacteria, but I makes sense. Gluteraldehyde is a disinfectant after all.


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## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

Is this a case of an aquariumist just being bored? I always feel that if it's not broke, don't fix it.

As for my excel dosage, on my 10 gallon tank I do 1 thread twice a week only. I don't have injection co2 though and my plants aren't growing rapid (they're fast enough I'm not in a rush to have to trim them). My CRS are breeding and are the focus... I read a few articles about people observing their shrimps reactions and that excel does cause them to act "worst".


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It's entirely possible. The lesson is excel is not a cure all, maybe once in a while would be most effective.


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## pejerrey (Dec 5, 2011)

Algae is alive thanks to excess of the nutrients it needs. Test your water before a water change, change water more often or more every time. Filter manteinance more frequently, maybe need more efficient method. How much fish you have, how do you feed them, how often water changes and what is on your tap water? And describe your light method, equipment and distances.

IMO: The art is not in adding more stuff, it's in keeping all inputs to the minimum with your tank thriving. 

I hope we can help you keep your hands off the tank as much as possible, which is mastering it. I try hard but it's tempting to mess with it.

My tank has showed me that you can bring this example to your life and apply it successfully!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I add lots of ferts to this tank and have not visible algae anywhere. 30-45ppm NO3, 10-15ppm of PO4, 1-2 ppm Fe added weekly. 










BBA has never entered this tank.
My 180 has it, but only a very very minor amount and only on 1/2 dead leaves after a trim. Maybe a little got on the wood a couple of times.......water change and as spray bottle of Excel, it's dead and does not come back. You can do the same for algae non living scape materials.
H2O2 is cheaper and more available and can work the same.

I've had BBA enter in a dozens of tanks over the decades. Before excel was marketed etc.

CO2(filters clogged?, tank empty, disc clogged, too much off gassing, poor measurement fooling you into thinking you have enough), trimming it off, good focus on the plants,

Limiting nutrients did not help. We specifically tried this in 4 different tanks using both P and N over 6 months. BBA still was there in all 4 cases. 
Light also, you can find BBA growing in very dark sections.

Excel will help but it's a dose response.
Plants have a higher tolerance than most algae, so only the upper ranges of dosing, eg, 2-3ppm for sustained periods will help, 1-3 weeks etc of daily dosing to this concentration, not the labeled dosing suggestion.

SAE's, and shrimps do seem to really be effective at keeping minor algae issues at bay, but simply good ferts/CO2/light is the key and always has been.

The rest is horticulture, care, staying on top of things, attacking the problem before it gets out of hand, high plant density/coverage, keeping CO2 running correctly, cleaning filters, good frequent water changes, pruning, perhaps spraying the non living material with Excel during a water change etc. 

Prevention is worth a pound of cure.

If you do get algae, then expect to do FAR MORE work to get rid of it, than say my 120 Gal tank which has never had any algae issues. Once you get the plants growing nicely, you can prune your way off of most algae issues.
Often takes a lot of manual removal. Pisses you off however if it just keeps coming back though.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Fusiongt and mistergreen.



fusiongt said:


> Is this a case of an aquariumist just being bored? I always feel that if it's not broke, don't fix it.


I agree in general, but I do consider persistent BBA "broken". I'm really into the aquascape that I've been working on and I don't want to have to have to tear it all apart to treat a BBA outbreak. Last time it got bad I had to remove everything and start over!



mistergreen said:


> It's entirely possible. The lesson is excel is not a cure all, maybe once in a while would be most effective.


I agree. I think that I'm done dosing Excel for now. I just don't see the point.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

In my one of my algae experiments on the BBA thread I have floating around here, I found that excel doesn't always kill BBA. I tested this for days and the algae didn't die at levels not safe for the aquarium. I finally decided to try another bottle of excel and the bba died immediately. The bottle I used first was a brand new bottle, and the second one was months old. H2O2 killed it everytime.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Pejerrey. I promise that I'll stop messing with the tank as soon as it is absolutely perfect!!!



pejerrey said:


> Algae is alive thanks to excess of the nutrients it needs. Test your water before a water change, change water more often or more every time. Filter manteinance more frequently, maybe need more efficient method. How much fish you have, how do you feed them, how often water changes and what is on your tap water? And describe your light method, equipment and distances.


Last week, to address the recent BBA bloom, I cleaned the filter, did an extra mid-week 50% water change, cut down on the amount of fish food, trimmed out many of the bba-affected leaves, AND did the large Excel dose.

I'm running out of ideas! 

Here are my current tank specifications. Please let me know if you can tell what I'm doing wrong!


40 gallon breeder tank

Lights: 2x 39 T5HO, 4" above tank, 7hr/day (window screen covering the half of the light that is above the hill area)

CO2: pressurized CO2, gla atomic inline diffuser, on 3 hours before the lights & off 1 hr before the lights go off, bubble rate too fast to count- aiming for light green with a hint of yellow on the drop checker throughout the entire photoperiod. Attemp to keep the CO2 just shy of gassing the fish. 

Filter: Eheim 2217, 2 powerheards. Filter cleaned monthly. Airstone at night

Fertilizer: EI dosing (3x/wk: 3/8 tsp kno3, 3/32 tsp kh2po4, 3/32 tsp k2so4. Also CSM+B 3/32 tsp 3x/week) 50% water change per week. Recently, I increased from the 20-40gal recipe to the 40-60 gal recipe and Added K2SO4 after developing potassium deficiency. Improved plant growth noted immediately.

Heater: hydor inline heater 74 degrees

Substrate: ecocomplete

Fauna-- around 35 fish (usual suspects-neon and rummy nosed tetras, ottos, corys, 1 bn pleco) + 20 red cherry shrimp. Fed moderately.

Water parameters: I do not routinely test my water. I don't get consistent readings between different test strips/kits, so I'm unsure as too the exact gH, kH, and minerals. I don't test for ferts. Generally, our water is soft but not super-soft. We are using well water treated by a Na based water softener--our untreated well water is not acceptable due to extreme iron content--liquid rust. 

I'm suspicious that my water may be contributing to the problem. But I'm not sure what to do about it. I don't know what I should test or how to interpret the results. I'm not sure what interventions are available to me short of switch to RO water, which I'd really rather not mess with.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Dosing 2x Excel for heavy BBA on my slow growing plants (anubias) and wood did nothing but turn my vals to mush. *burns $10 bill*


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

*Thanks Plantbrain*



plantbrain said:


> My 180 has it, but only a very very minor amount and only on 1/2 dead leaves after a trim. Maybe a little got on the wood a couple of times.......water change and as spray bottle of Excel, it's dead and does not come back. You can do the same for algae non living scape materials.
> H2O2 is cheaper and more available and can work the same.
> 
> I've had BBA enter in a dozens of tanks over the decades. Before excel was marketed etc.
> ...



Everything you are saying about prevention makes a lot of sense and is consistent with what I am attempting to do. Unfortunately, the BBA is already there. It entered the tank three years ago when we were brand new to aquascaping and it has been present to some extent ever since. 



> If you do get algae, then expect to do FAR MORE work to get rid of it, than say my 120 Gal tank which has never had any algae issues. Once you get the plants growing nicely, you can prune your way off of most algae issues.
> Often takes a lot of manual removal. Pisses you off however if it just keeps coming back though.


:icon_cry: I really was hoping that there would be some way for me to avoid the constant trimming affected leaves, spot treating and scraping hardscape, picking out affected pieces of substrate, and generally being pissed off. I can handle some of this, but I doing it constantly gets depressing. 

I really hope that there is something I can do to help suppress it a bit...


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## willknowitall (Oct 3, 2010)

sewingalot said:


> In my one of my algae experiments on the BBA thread I have floating around here, I found that excel doesn't always kill BBA. I tested this for days and the algae didn't die at levels not safe for the aquarium. I finally decided to try another bottle of excel and the bba died immediately. The bottle I used first was a brand new bottle, and the second one was months old. H2O2 killed it everytime.


i have had this happen several times and im sure its because excel batches are a not consistent in strength

i had 1 bottle that i double dosed for weeks and hardly did anything
got a different bottle and all the bba turned red in four days
that was with a break in between the different bottles


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Interesting! We get the 2 liter bottles, which last for 6 months. If there is variation, or if the solution deteriorates with time, that could be an explanation. Hmm... I just swore off Excel but now I'm curious again... Hmm


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> I add lots of ferts to this tank and have not visible algae anywhere. 30-45ppm NO3, 10-15ppm of PO4, 1-2 ppm Fe added weekly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ghotifish said:


> Everything you are saying about prevention makes a lot of sense and is consistent with what I am attempting to do. Unfortunately, the BBA is already there. It entered the tank three years ago when we were brand new to aquascaping and it has been present to some extent ever since.
> 
> :icon_cry: I really was hoping that there would be some way for me to avoid the constant trimming affected leaves, spot treating and scraping hardscape, picking out affected pieces of substrate, and generally being pissed off. I can handle some of this, but I doing it constantly gets depressing.
> 
> I really hope that there is something I can do to help suppress it a bit...


I dealt with BBA for 3 years straight. No help, not one to ask etc. Amano? He spent a decade dealing with algae plagues. That's a VERY long time to suffer. I likely would have tossed the towel in. CO2 was the light bulb that went off when I managed to fix it.

Dan Quackenbush had popularized the 19:1 water/bleach dip for Anubias and other commonly infested with BBA fur type plants in the mid 1990's. That was about the time I had the CO2 realization. 

SAE's are extremely aggressive also towards BBA. One of the very few.

To root it out good, I attack it manually and do all those things, Amano does as well. Most folks that are good at dealing with algae tend to do a lot to prevent it, but go after the issue aggressively when it does appear till it's beaten down. I have no algae eaters in the 180, I have a horde of the shrimp in the other tank however.

So they do help and keep it at bay.
I see BBA, I know I still have a s/light CO2 issue as far as the environmental tweaks I need to do. the rest is manual labor, etc, and maybe adding some algae eaters. There is a lot more work involved to get the tank back to snuff once algae takes hold.

I've torn entire tank displays, some quite large if I was not happy to address Caldophora and other species including Riccia which is a weedy plant.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ua hua said:


> plantbrain said:
> 
> 
> > I add lots of ferts to this tank and have not visible algae anywhere. 30-45ppm NO3, 10-15ppm of PO4, 1-2 ppm Fe added weekly.
> ...


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Thanks Tom-
I appreciate hearing that even experts, like yourself, have to battle algae from time to time!

A couple more quick questions, if you don't mind: 

What do you think about the role of DOC? Is there anything more to that than keeping a tidy tank and maintaing your filter? I think that I can see a relationship between the cleanliness of my tank in terms of decaying plant matter/detritus and algae growth. I wonder if I should be doing more to reduce DOC, and if so, what? It seems like 2x/wk water changes would mess up my ei dosing.

Do you know if BBA is impacted by temp, pH, water hardness, or mineral concentrations?

Also, it.seems like when my plants are pearling more, the algae is decreased. Is the amount of pearling related more to the growth rate or to the amount of dissolved O2?

Also, since I got you here, I've been wondering: does the amount of CO2 dissolved in the water impact the amount of dissolved O2 and vice versa?

Thanks!


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## florini (Jun 26, 2011)

I am likely the least experienced aquarist posting in this thread, but here's my experience with excel vs BBA:

I have a small (12g) tank which about 3 months ago got a BBa infestation. It grew on the lower leaves of all the plants, on all the leaves of slow growing plants and changed my UG into a horrible tangled mess of plant and algae. UG and a bush of stauro seemed suffocated by the algae and couldn't grow.

I reduced fishload (from about 1cm fish / liter of water to about 0.6 cm of fish / liter of water), increased aeration and started overdosing excel at 2x. I did not physically remove BBA for the purpose of observing it. In about 2 weeks I noticed that BBA changed color and the shrimp (both Amano and red cherry) had started eating it. In about a month, most of the algae was eaten (starting from the lower leaves upwards). The UG and stauro were cleaned completely and look very healthy (stauro is growing aggresively, it is now a pest in itself ). The old BBA-infested leaves were permanently damaged (they have discoloration, thinning and little holes) but they are alive and the new growth is healthy.

About a month ago I dialed back the excel to the recommended dose and so far there is no BBA to be seen. The overall growth dynamic of all the plants is better, I have to trim a lot. I did get some GDA but I clean it weekly and it's dying off too.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi florini,

Thanks for the reply.

What you describe is exactly what is supposed to happen. I'm so happy it worked for you. That's consistent with my experience in the early days of my excel use. That's what I expected when I hit it with the big dose but alas, in my case, no such luck. The moral of my story is not to overdose excel indefinitely.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

I tested my GH and kh and found high kh (12-13) and low gh (<1). Could that be an issue? I'm unsure what to make of those results.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

willknowitall said:


> i have had this happen several times and im sure its because excel batches are a not consistent in strength
> 
> i had 1 bottle that i double dosed for weeks and hardly did anything
> got a different bottle and all the bba turned red in four days
> that was with a break in between the different bottles





ghotifish said:


> Interesting! We get the 2 liter bottles, which last for 6 months. If there is variation, or if the solution deteriorates with time, that could be an explanation. Hmm... I just swore off Excel but now I'm curious again... Hmm


Can you get another bottle and try it out? Seriously, I was stumped on this. I didn't know why it wasn't working, especially given it was a brand new bottle. If you are interested, here are my experiments on it that proved to be it was not only a bad batch, but it was still growing in my petri dish in minimal lighting bathed in excel: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1452633-post538.html


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## Rhaethe (Jan 20, 2010)

ghotifish said:


> I tested my GH and kh and found high kh (12-13) and low gh (<1). Could that be an issue? I'm unsure what to make of those results.


If your water contains more sodium bicarbonate and/or potassium bicarbonate than total calcium and magnesium, than kh will be higher than gh. 

Another possible is you are using water softener. Using water softeners will produce water that is most likely to have a kh that is higher than the gh. Water softeners exchange sodium or potassium ions for calcium, magnesium, and other hard water minerals.


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## Rhaethe (Jan 20, 2010)

I have an uncorroborated suspicion that water that has higher sodium content is preferable for BBA. BBA is a red algae, which normally only thrives in saltwater ... but BBA is a type that has adapted to fresh. That does not mean, though, that maybe it still requires a certain amount of sodium in the water. 

Perhaps there is a reaction/exchange that occurs with the CO2 and Excel (as an aldehyde base, which oxidizes) that decreases the amount of sodium or somesuch. 

I am not as well versed with the chemistry ... but, it seems to me that if that is what occurs (removes sodium which the BBA needs) then if you have a high amount of sodium in the water to begin with (as possibly evidenced by the higher kh than gh), your current CO2 / Excel approach isn't removing enough, still allowing the BBA to thrive.

Again ... this is just me brainstorming with NO evidence to back anything up. I have been on a non-aquarium related war against sodium lately ... so I am a bit biased


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## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

sewingalot said:


> Can you get another bottle and try it out? Seriously, I was stumped on this. I didn't know why it wasn't working, especially given it was a brand new bottle. If you are interested, here are my experiments on it that proved to be it was not only a bad batch, but it was still growing in my petri dish in minimal lighting bathed in excel: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1452633-post538.html



Ok, this is purely from 6 month old memory and I probably have some of this wrong, but here it is anyway. 

When I wanted glutaraldehyde, I looked for a concentrated source and wound up buying 25% EM purity glute from a medical research supplier. I hadn't discovered Metricide as a source yet. This little 100 ml bottle cost me $18. Not bad I thought. I could make a large batch of 1.5% with that 100 ml. However, the shipping was a whopping $45, which they billed through invoice so I didn't realize until I got the package with my MC charges on it! Of course none of this was explained on their website because who buys EM research glutaraldehyde that doesn't know that right? They charged me for overnight UPS even though their facility was 200 miles from me. They sure wanted to make sure I got it right away. Well what I got was a styrofoam box with a bottle of glute and a freezer pack in it and warning stickers all over it telling me to get it into the freezer ASAP. Being a complete n00b I didn't realize that EM meant Electron Microscope. They use this stuff for fixing specimens. 

Ok, so now I have this stuff and have to dilute it for use. I did so. The forums all mentioned how it stunk and how not to breathe glute because it would rot your brain and your kids would be born with horns and eyes sticking out of their arms etc etc etc. Well, this stuff didn't smell. At all. So I was a bit concerned. Come to find out that the esters that are in Excel and Metricide are actually impurities and those are what you smell.. Ok, so what right? Well, Seachem has always said their version of glute is "proprietary" and they use the term "polycycloglutaracetal". I believe (and this is just my hypothesis and not to be taken as anything more than that!) that this is the impurities that the folks I bought my EM purity glute were warning about. This company warns that storing EM glute at any temp about -10f will allow it to deteriorate into these various esters and even taking it out of the freezer long enough to get the product onto the slide (or whatever they use in EM's) will eventually render it unusable. So, extrapolating that to your experience that some bottles of Excel work better than others makes sense, somehow. Not sure exactly how, but somehow. This stuff deteriorates. Maybe there's a window where it loses it's long chain carbon attributes and becomes less available to the plants. I don't know.

I also never ended up using this stuff. I decided that CO2 was a better way to go. This being said, the glute I mixed up DID eventually start smelling something like plastic and if I open that bottle right now I can definitely smell it very well. It took about a month before it did. Which is right about the correct time period I was told it would take for the EM purity stuff to become unusable. 

Don't know if any of this info helps, but you may use it in the spirit in which it was given.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

sewingalot said:


> Can you get another bottle and try it out? Seriously, I was stumped on this. I didn't know why it wasn't working, especially given it was a brand new bottle. If you are interested, here are my experiments on it that proved to be it was not only a bad batch, but it was still growing in my petri dish in minimal lighting bathed in excel: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1452633-post538.html


What a cool experiment! I'm after reading that, I'm thinking I've probably got a degraded bottle of Excel rather than a new strain of resistant super-algae! :red_mouth





m00se said:


> This company warns that storing EM glute at any temp about -10f will allow it to deteriorate into these various esters and even taking it out of the freezer long enough to get the product onto the slide (or whatever they use in EM's) will eventually render it unusable. So, extrapolating that to your experience that some bottles of Excel work better than others makes sense, somehow. Not sure exactly how, but somehow. This stuff deteriorates. Maybe there's a window where it loses it's long chain carbon attributes and becomes less available to the plants. I don't know.
> 
> I also never ended up using this stuff. I decided that CO2 was a better way to go. This being said, the glute I mixed up DID eventually start smelling something like plastic and if I open that bottle right now I can definitely smell it very well. It took about a month before it did. Which is right about the correct time period I was told it would take for the EM purity stuff to become unusable.


Thanks for the interesting story! Your experiences plus sewingalot's experiences pretty much have me convinced that the Excel that I've been using is the problem. I've noticed several times that some bottles smell way worse than other bottles. Given your experience, I'm guessing that stinkier=more degraded. I don't even know how old the bottle I've been using is. I know it comprised of two partially used 2 liter bottles pour together.

I'm going to have to get another bottle and try it out. Fortunately, All my other attempts at algae control have been pretty effective and the BBA is not turning out to be the catastrophic infestation that I feared! I'm going to hold off on the excel for a bit, unless the algae advances again. 




Rhaethe said:


> Another possible is you are using water softener. Using water softeners will produce water that is most likely to have a kh that is higher than the gh. Water softeners exchange sodium or potassium ions for calcium, magnesium, and other hard water minerals.


Yep, I have a water softener. I wish that I did not but my well water has extremely high levels of iron (0.03ppm is considered high, ours is 6.0ppm!) and cannot be used in its untreated form. I'm now adding gh booster to see if that will be good for the tank. So far, the only effect has been that I put in too much and 3 of my shrimp died!

I'm considering ditching the water softener and switching to a Greensand water filter that claims to remove iron, manganese, and hydrogen sulfide (all of which are present in our well water) without adding anything to the water.

The other option is RO, but storing all that water seems crazy!

What a pain!



Rhaethe said:


> I have an uncorroborated suspicion that water that has higher sodium content is preferable for BBA. BBA is a red algae, which normally only thrives in saltwater ... but BBA is a type that has adapted to fresh. That does not mean, though, that maybe it still requires a certain amount of sodium in the water.
> 
> Perhaps there is a reaction/exchange that occurs with the CO2 and Excel (as an aldehyde base, which oxidizes) that decreases the amount of sodium or somesuch.
> 
> ...


I don't know much about chemistry either. I've read the Excel is a reducing agent and can remove oxygen from the water. I'm not sure that really matters in this case... I'm guessing that Excel degradation is a bigger factor.

If BBA likes sodium, that may explain why it's so hard to totally get rid of despite having just about everything else in the tank perfect... If that's the case, then I'm a mere $500 to 3000 dollars away from a solution. Unfortunately, my cat is in the pet hospital right now with a urinary obstruction and I'm pretty sure they line the litter boxes with crisp $100 dollar bills in that place! No major purchases any time soon for us!


I'll post what happens when I get a fresh bottle of excel.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Gluteraldehyde has a shelf life you know... 

"Glutaraldehyde and formaldehyde are volatile, and toxic by both skin contact and inhalation. Glutaraldehyde has a short shelf life (<2 weeks), and is expensive. Formaldehyde is less expensive and has a much longer shelf life if some methanol is added to inhibit polymerization to paraformaldehyde, but is much more volatile" 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology) 


Although the fixative properties of glut will fade quickly; its use as a carbon source will not disappear. I think this is what's happening. Sodium has nothing to do with it. Glut won't do anything to dissolved Na+ in the water. It's a protein cross linker meaning it changes the configuration of the proteins within the organism (in this case algae) rendering them useless and possibly toxic. I would say you just need a new bottle or need to switch to something more reliable such as non-chemical prevention after a spot treating with H2O2 3%.

But I wouldn't discount Excel reisistant bba at all. If you do find this to be true I suggest not trading plants with anyone out of that tank anymore. Spreading something like that would spell bad news.


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

Good News!

I ordered a fresh bottle of excel and added 30ml. The BBA started turning red and dying off within 12 hours. It's a Christmas miracle! Now I'm keeping my excel in the freezer!

Thanks so much for all the help!


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## ghotifish (Feb 16, 2009)

By the way, don't put excel in the freezer. Excel Popsicle. Duh.


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## nutbags (Aug 15, 2013)

Dont mess with [censored][censored][censored][censored] if it aint broke.

Quote of the day.

My tank has showed me that you can bring this example to your life and apply it successfully! [/QUOTE]

PEACE!


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