# GW, Anyone ever tried this.



## Desolas (May 9, 2004)

I have not used that product, or any additive to fight green water. So I cannot comment, but I have dealt with GW on many occassions and my new setup is dealing with it right now.

Some things I found to help prevent future growth of greenwater is using barley straw in the filter, it takes a month or so for it to become active but once the humic acid is released it helps prevent new algae growth.

Also doing water changes with RO water - and adding no nutrients - has help considerably. I run my water nutrient poor until the GW is gone, once the barley straw kicks in I slowly start adding ferts again. My substrate is nutrient rich though so the plants do get something during the time the water is as poor as I can make it.

I've only gotten GW on tanks I setup with tap water initially. I fight through the initial BS, and then everything is fine.

Once you've got a real cloud going blackouts seem to only do kill off a bit, but it is almost as of the die off is releasing more nutrients to fuel new growth. Unless you're removing the dying algae it just comes back. Using the blackout method I had to use a diatom filter as well.

If you have a canister filter that can be equipped with a micron filter you can use diatom powder in it. Poor mans diatom filter, that's my method if it comes to it. You've got to remove the existing algae (diatom filter, or water change.) and prevent the new algae from growing (no nutrients.) Stock the tank with only the fastest growing plants like Hygrophilia it will mature enough to be GW free and stable.


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

I've had gw before (just a few weeks ago actually) and all i've ever done is big water changes(50% or more) pretty much every day until it clears up. The clearing up doesn't take too long, generally.


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

Desolas,Ringram, thanks for your input. Yes you are right, from all the treads that I read on GW, WC usually work in controlling it. In my case however this has not worked. ( Baffled as to why )
I finally broke down today and bought a UV unit (found one that I could afford) Hopefully this will help.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

UV's are easy to use and cheap off ebay, about 40-50$ or so.
That's a bit more than a bottle of snake oil but you know it works.

Barely straw is far from proven. We tried on a number of algae in controlled test, nothing, no response.

Published research is also conflicting on it as well.

Some have had luck water changing it out. UV/Diatoms are always effective.
Daphnia also works with lower light tanks, as does other methods, at higher light, GW is tougher to get rid of. 

A 2 day run with a UV and it's done.
NH4 causes the GW, you can add anything else and all the other nutrients without getting it, then dose a little NH4 and it'll appear. Then run the UV and repeat .....ad nauseum.

It's common in new tanks because the plant's needs are not being met with high light, adding mulm/detritus from an established tank's gravel or filter helps start the tank and adding peat/leonardite(any carbon sounce, even barley straw) will give the bacteria something to live on. NH4/NO2 Bacteria need a carbon source as well, new tanks are very poor so adding this helps the bacteria grow and this helps keep the NH4 down.

Adding more plants, pack the tank when ever you start a new tank will also remove all the NH4, dose KNO3/KH2PO4 etc right away and crank the CO2 up.

That will drive the plants full blast ansd remove the NH4.

This is why you cannot keep adding fish to a CO2 enriched high light tank without algae.

It's not the NO3/PO4, it's NH4.
It does not take much nor for a long time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

I just battled GW as well, i used the blackout method to great avail. I would suggest maybe trying a longer blackout if your tank is that bad with GW. I went 4 days and mine was only minorly affected, it worked great. So maybe go for a longer one. It wouldnt hurt to try, i would cause im a scum when it comes to buying equipment, tho UV's are pretty cheap, but spending money is spending money which then limits the spending on other more important items like beer.

My GW came about from what i think was lack of CO2, which contradicts Toms research. Maybe i should do an honours project on this subject. But i dont think the Uni would be as interested in the project as i would 

Grunge


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## ming (Dec 6, 2003)

Tom, 
Correct me if I misunderstood, but does that mean fish waste/fish food creates both NH4 and ammonia (which turns to no2 to no3 eventually with bacteria)? Just that NH4 becomes more readily available because ammonia has to go through the cycle time(especially in a new tank) which leads to excess NH4 = GW?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

grungefreek said:


> My GW came about from what i think was lack of CO2, which contradicts Toms research. Maybe i should do an honours project on this subject. But i dont think the Uni would be as interested in the project as i would
> 
> Grunge


No it doesn't.
If you have plants and a fish load and you reduce the CO2 suddenly, that means the plants will stop taking up things like NH4.

I've had plenty of tanks without enough CO2, they get BBA.
Many people have low CO2 and no GW.
It's present(I can induce it without the low CO2)

I never got GW no matter what I did till I added NH4 for literally 20 years. 
A good fish load does this and a healthy plant load with good CO2/high light will remove it. 

So that contradicts the contradiction

But, making sure you have enough CO2 in the first place is the only way you will know this and you must have control over the other parameters such as CO2, which is the main thing after light.

So unless you can control the other issues independantly and test the CO2 or the NH4 as the dependent variable, you do not know what is going on nor can rule out confounding factors. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ming said:


> Tom,
> Correct me if I misunderstood, but does that mean fish waste/fish food creates both NH4 and ammonia (which turns to no2 to no3 eventually with bacteria)? Just that NH4 becomes more readily available because ammonia has to go through the cycle time(especially in a new tank) which leads to excess NH4 = GW?



NH4/NH3 is a pH depedent relationship if you are curious.
Atr the pH's we deal with, most is NH4. That's what plants use and take in.

But yes, you have the basic idea due to the cycle times.

You can easily get around the cycle times by adding lots of plants from day one, that's why we tell new folks to add lots of plants from the beginning.

*That issue is not impressed enough.*

The other issue is simply adding mulm/detritus from an established tank (A friend's, an extra one you have, a LFS's etc) to the gravel and filter of any new tank.

That adds live thriving bacteria.

Doing both prevents any new tank start up issues as well adding a little peat or leonardite to the gravel. Barley straw can be added also if you wanted. I don't suggest it personally.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> I never got GW no matter what I did till I added NH4 for literally 20 years.


So what concentrations of NH4 induced GW? Are there any reports written that may indicate relationships between CO2 and NH4 levels which result in GW?

Are there any proper scientific journals that specifically deal with aquariums? or is it just too much "soft science" for anyone to worry bout

Grunge


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## freeflyer (Feb 3, 2005)

andyg said:


> KH 2.8
> GH 1.2 (Low GH and KH due to RO.)
> NO3 5ppm
> PO4 .25ppm
> ...


I would cut that ro with some tap! thats way too low hardness why pay money for ca or ma when you could add some tap for free which should have it in it along with addition traces, not to mention the less RO added the more water saved from being wasted.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

The product you asked about is just a flocculant, it causes small particulate matter to bind together into larger particles so your filter can remove them. On green water, it's of little use as the problem causing it is still there.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

grungefreek said:


> So what concentrations of NH4 induced GW? Are there any reports written that may indicate relationships between CO2 and NH4 levels which result in GW?
> 
> Are there any proper scientific journals that specifically deal with aquariums? or is it just too much "soft science" for anyone to worry bout
> 
> Grunge


Apparently I'm as close as that gets.
I'm not particularly interested in CO2/NH4 issues just yet, there are many more basic questions that have not been addressed.

But yes, there is a relationship there for sure.
There's a relationship with DIC(Dissolved inorganic carbon- CO2/HCO3) with almost all the nutrients. So that must be controlled well if you plan on playign with these variables.

A very accurate NH4 test kit is also required. 
You will also want to dope some N15 NH4 to trace where and who gets what as well. Not an easy project.

Possible, but not easy and likely not fundable.
Most mass spect folks hate it when you bering in enriched samples, messes their machines up and takes a logn time to recalibrate. 

I tried a few times but the old mass spect that we could use had all sorts of problems. I never got any data worthwhile from it. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> You can easily get around the cycle times by adding lots of plants from day one, that's why we tell new folks to add lots of plants from the beginning. *That issue is not impressed enough.*


when i started in the hobby, people did impress the idea of lots of plants. the issue, for me anyway, was that until i posted a picture, i thought i had a lot of plants. then, buck said, "i know you think that's a lot of plants...but its not!" the issue is that there is a difference in perception of what a "lot" is. 

but, what about established tanks? mine has been set up (in its current location) since october and i have only recently begun to suffer from gw.

i am very interested in grungefreak's question about the relation between CO2 and NH4 because i have noticed that when one DIY bottle runs out, the GW seems to get worse...

thanks for the info tom, i think i might make it out of middle school chemistry soon!


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## grungefreek (Oct 9, 2003)

Kris said:


> i am very interested in grungefreak's question about the relation between CO2 and NH4 because i have noticed that when one DIY bottle runs out, the GW seems to get worse...


I think many people would be interested. But as Tom said, it would be very costly and complicated to conduct a proper experiment, and unfortunately this kind of stuff is considered "soft science" and wont really attract much funding.

I'd love to see a feasibility study done on the production of a full on Scientific journal centred around the aquarium trade. You've probably done a smaller version of this have u Tom? to see how much u could expand the Barr report?

Grunge


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

freeflyer said:


> I would cut that ro with some tap! thats way too low hardness why pay money for ca or ma when you could add some tap for free which should have it in it along with addition traces, not to mention the less RO added the more water saved from being wasted.


My problem is that being on a well, my tap water is way too high in iron, sulfur and disolved salt. So I also have to pay for "good" tap water. (good being a key word as town water is also high very in NO3 & PO4 )
Last time I used town water, it caused a drastic increase in the GW.

I installed the UV unit and after 24hrs I already see a major improvement in the clarity of the tank.


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> The product you asked about is just a flocculant, it causes small particulate matter to bind together into larger particles so your filter can remove them. On green water, it's of little use as the problem causing it is still there.


Thanks for the reply. I had already decided against using this product. As I mentioned in my other post I opted for the UV route.


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

Kris said:


> when i started in the hobby, people did impress the idea of lots of plants. the issue, for me anyway, was that until i posted a picture, i thought i had a lot of plants. then, buck said, "i know you think that's a lot of plants...but its not!" the issue is that there is a difference in perception of what a "lot" is.
> 
> but, what about established tanks? mine has been set up (in its current location) since october and i have only recently begun to suffer from gw.
> 
> ...


I agree with Kris, people do have a different perception of what is a heavy planted tank. Maybe some pictures could be posted in the FAQ as some examples of light, medium and heavily planted tank.

Thanks Tom for your input on this tread.
I know that in my case it may have been a combination of NH4 and low CO2, as my GW started after adding my fish load and my DIY CO2 running low in production.


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

I have a wet/dry on my 100 gallon. Only had GW when the tank was newly setup. Now I can add fish to infinity(feeding 1 lb frozen food per week) and still not get green water because wet/dry is very powerful at removing NH4 quickly.


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## hippophagy (Mar 24, 2005)

*My GW experiences*

I have a small 3.3G window tank that gets occasional bad GW outbreaks. It usually starts when I go on vacation and my neighbor over feeds. The course of action that works best for me is 3 or so days of water changes 30-50%. I use double filtered tap water. Trim a few hours off the light cycle (and block out the sunlight in my case) and feed every other day. Also put as many plants in the tank as possible. Java moss is great and so is duckweed. Neither need to be planted. Just throw them in and when the tank clears up pull them out. I have also used clipped Java fern leaves which will survive and grow just free floating. It won't make for a pretty tank in the short term but it should knock out the GW. Interestingly during the last outbreak when I was a bit lazy after two weeks away, the tank was doing really well. Almost constant pearling (with no C02) on Java fern and Java moss. Everything was doing so well that I hesitated to mess with anything. Eventually I followed the steps above and the tank is back. 

You can bring it back from the brink don't give up hope. I'm sure it's harder on a larger tank but the principles are probably the same.


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