# 20 gallon experimental



## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Hey guys. This is going to be a "journal" I suppose, but with commentary being welcome! This tank is one big learning process for me since I'm fairly new to the hobby. I've been in it for about 15 months or so. Thankfully I have a lot of spare time on my hands so I've been able to constantly do research and up my game considerably (I hope!) in this one year.

Some history of the tank: It first got stuff transferred to it from a 10 gallon and before that it was only 5 gallons! Little did I know that a bigger tank was easier to keep! I just wanted to be sure I was really even into aquatics before I got a huge tank. Once I got to the 20, I had some success breeding cherry shrimp. Then there were leeches, which were a huge disaster. I put in dog dewormer, it killed all the snails and I think it sterilized my shrimp! They stopped breeding, I sold them not too long ago to someone else, and got a small but fresh batch of bloody mary shrimp! Then I started finally putting more snails in. This is about where the history ends and the present begins!

Presently, I have 22 ivory mystery snails. About 20 (maybe a bit less) bloody mary shrimp. 1 fresh water (of course) golden asian clam! That's it for livestock.

For plants, I've got a semi big Java fern, semi big cloud of Java moss, unknown crypts (Maybe you can identify them in the pictures I'll be posting later.), and now, as of yesterday, Dwarf hairgrass!

For equipment, I've got a sponge filter, a heater, a glass lid (to keep those darn mystery snails from escaping!), and a very mediocre LED light that I paid 17 bucks for.

On the way: Mineral balls, mineral stones, a big old 30 inch Beamswork LED light, some alder cones, and some more shrimp/snail food not that it really matters.

I feed: Shrimp king complete, Shrimp king snail stixx I think it's called, which is good food for snails, Bacter AE (Only the best for these shrimpies!), Beta glucan (also from glasgarten like Bacter AE), and that's really it aside from some algae stick things that are kind of a treat for them.

Of course I have indian almond leaves, but I put them in 2 days before a water change so the tank doesn't get too brown. I accidentally and stupidly covered the old one with the new substrate I poured in yesterday. So there goes a leaf, and I also covered several mineral stones which was also a mistake. I should have taken the time to take them out first. Then again I hate how they look and now the tank has a nice uniform look, so...eh. Plus I got new ones on the way.

Their schedule is basically this:
Monday - Solid food. (Shrimp king complete and some snail stixx now for all those snails.)
Tuesday - Nothing!
Wednesday - Solid food again
Thursday - Nothing but it's time to do a water change! I do 25% a week!
Friday - Solid food again
Saturday - Powdered food, so now using Bacter AE and that beta glucan.
Sunday - Nothing unless I feel they have been good shrimpies and they look hungry, so maybe a treat!

I think I'll leave it at that for now, and here are some pictures!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jNrnRjMLjqJsTzWS9


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

That is a lot of invertebrates! I like it though, it's something a little different


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Thelongsnail said:


> That is a lot of invertebrates! I like it though, it's something a little different


Thanks for saying so! I appreciate that! Yeah it's supposed to be a nice looking tank that also functions well. But also one I'm learning on, so I'm yet to optimize both the fashion and function of it.

Bump: Ok I just dropped in a big ol' mineral stone. It's this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J7AA7TW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Everybody says it's good for shrimp and snails, but I'd appreciate some insight into this thing. It's my first mineral stone so not sure what to expect. Just a bunch of minerals most likely. I fear even one stone might be too many darn minerals for my 20 gallon. Considering I have the 17 shrimp, 22 snails, and the clam...I think I need lots of minerals! But not all at one time. There was a lot of dust on the stone and I wasn't sure what to do. I decided to just drop it in since I figured a little extra minerals wouldn't hurt since I covered the mineral stones days ago. I thought they would be starved for minerals...maybe I'm right and they love the minerals...not sure.

Also found a dead shrimp this morning. Hopefully the minerals help them out. He probably died from lack of minerals and not enough to eat. I think the snails are eating everything in sight. So I put some more bacter AE in there along with the minerals, so now they will be eating some protein and minerals at the same time.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Does anybody know a good medicine for such creatures as shrimp and snails? I'm trying not to use medication too much, but I'd still like something to treat them with should that situation arise.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hey Klein, I am not a shrimp expert. But I have a 2 gal that started with 5 cherry shrimp a few months ago. Now there is over 50 of them. I change the water maybe once every 2 months. Theres a few plants in there, no co2. I believe the main thing to keep in mind is keeping the water stable. I feed them Crab Cuisine as their main diet, to make sure they have enough calcium. Also Bacter AE for the babies. I know the little tank is over populated I'm hoping they will just stop breeding. I had tried to put some in my bigger tank. But they just become snacks for my Rams. I hope this rambling helps


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Hey Klein, I am not a shrimp expert. But I have a 2 gal that started with 5 cherry shrimp a few months ago. Now there is over 50 of them. I change the water maybe once every 2 months. Theres a few plants in there, no co2. I believe the main thing to keep in mind is keeping the water stable. I feed them Crab Cuisine as their main diet, to make sure they have enough calcium. Also Bacter AE for the babies. I know the little tank is over populated I'm hoping they will just stop breeding. I had tried to put some in my bigger tank. But they just become snacks for my Rams. I hope this rambling helps


Woah, talk about inbred! Don't understand how people are able to breed in anything less than a 20 gallon. What's next? Breeding 100 in a mason jar? Not sure how you've managed to do that since the ammonia would presumably build up quickly, and with no water changes the conditions shouldn't be that good. Here my shrimp have everything they could possibly want, and we'll see if they start breeding. They are a fairly new batch yet. You must have a temperature stable room; something I've struggled with.

By the way, I put in the Beamswork light, and yeah...It's bright! Hopefully not so bright that my shrimp hate it for some reason. Though it doesn't seem too extreme. The coverage is clearly so much better to what I had. Used to be you could only dimly see the middle of my tank...Now that sucker is totally lit up! There are hardly any shadows! I'll get around to posting photos of it eventually.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hello Klein, I set the shrimp tank up for my kids. Who knew the population would explode lol. But the tank stays around 80 degrees. I guess most importantly what I was trying to share was the importance of what stability when it comes to shrimp. Shrimp don't like constant water changes. Unless using r.o. and adding own minerals. But like I said I am not a shrimp expert. Just wanted to share my experience with cherry shrimps with ya. 

I have read somewhere that the shrimp eventually stop breeding if the tank size is not sufficient. But if that doesn't happen, I am going to have some happy Rams.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Hello Klein, I set the shrimp tank up for my kids. Who knew the population would explode lol. But the tank stays around 80 degrees. I guess most importantly what I was trying to share was the importance of what stability when it comes to shrimp. Shrimp don't like constant water changes. Unless using r.o. and adding own minerals. But like I said I am not a shrimp expert. Just wanted to share my experience with cherry shrimps with ya.
> 
> I have read somewhere that the shrimp eventually stop breeding if the tank size is not sufficient. But if that doesn't happen, I am going to have some happy Rams.


Yeah, meanwhile this is my sole purpose in life (or at least the main focus), with hundreds of dollars spent on it, but yet it sounds like you've bred more shrimp than I have in some 2 gallon that you set up as an afterthought. Though maybe you're right about the water changes. With the amount of plant growth I should have now with those lights, maybe they can finally absorb enough ammonia...also I have a clam. That's kind of like a filter.

I could try not changing the water for a month or so and see what happens. It's easy enough.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

KleineVampir said:


> Does anybody know a good medicine for such creatures as shrimp and snails? I'm trying not to use medication too much, but I'd still like something to treat them with should that situation arise.


It entirely depends on what you're trying to treat. Parasites, bacteria, fungi, and viruses are all potential causes of disease and they are all treated differently. I would say that prevention is your best option. Strict quarantines of new livestock, have dedicated equipment for the tank, keep up with the water changes.

I recommend being really careful with any medications not explicitly approved for fish/invertebrates. Some medications that are totally safe for dogs/cats/people are EXTREMELY toxic for fish/invertebrates.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

ursamajor said:


> It entirely depends on what you're trying to treat. Parasites, bacteria, fungi, and viruses are all potential causes of disease and they are all treated differently. I would say that prevention is your best option. Strict quarantines of new livestock, have dedicated equipment for the tank, keep up with the water changes.
> 
> I recommend being really careful with any medications not explicitly approved for fish/invertebrates. Some medications that are totally safe for dogs/cats/people are EXTREMELY toxic for fish/invertebrates.


Well don't you have any recommendations for medicines that cover at least some of those bases? What would I get if I only wanted 1 or 2 medications?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Also I wanted to ask you guys about the blue light that comes with this beamswork light. What would happen if I left the blue light on all night as opposed to nothing? Any interactions with the plants and animals in there or is just for viewing purposes?


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hello Klein, this may not be helpful to you. But I never dealt with any diseases in my shrimp tank. Prevention is also a better practice. 2 products I do use occasionally are Borneowild Vigor and Sheild. Molting issues more common problem for keeping shrimp. But that is easily prevented by keeping calcium in their diet, and water temperatures 75-80 deg.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Hello Klein, this may not be helpful to you. But I never dealt with any diseases in my shrimp tank. Prevention is also a better practice. 2 products I do use occasionally are Borneowild Vigor and Sheild. Molting issues more common problem for keeping shrimp. But that is easily prevented by keeping calcium in their diet, and water temperatures 75-80 deg.


Oh they got calcium! But in a tank with 17 shrimp and 22 snails, you GOTTA have calcium! And a clam! Clam's still going strong btw!

Yeah I just wanted something that might actually help them in the event something starts spreading around. I have some paraguard that probably works but it isn't meant for inverts. Maybe I'll just stick to that if recommendations aren't forthcoming. It seems people don't have much to say about shrimp medicine!

75-80 is definitely the high side, but I think 75 is good. That's what my tank is at now. I find the snails like 75 too.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Good luck and have fun with it


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Took out 3 dead snails today. I'm glad I checked to see if they were alive because some of the inactive ones weren't. I guess probably about once a week you should check your inactive snails to see if they're alive or not. The ones that are alive are growing considerably quickly, given they really have the best food and I'm giving them quite a bit of it. The plants seem to be doing well under the new light but of course so is the algae, without a CO2 system. I've scraped some off the front with one of those aquascaping spatulas.

Hopefully now with the dead snails out, that I should have probably checked earlier, the shrimp will start to do better and breed. A few days ago I did get a pregnancy but she dropped her eggs. Next thing you know, they're gone...does anybody know what happens to those eggs? Do they eat them? And do they have a chance of hatching?


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

KleineVampir said:


> Yeah I just wanted something that might actually help them in the event something starts spreading around. I have some paraguard that probably works but it isn't meant for inverts. Maybe I'll just stick to that if recommendations aren't forthcoming. It seems people don't have much to say about shrimp medicine!


Sadly it seems there just isn't much to say about shrimp medicine. I would guess that there isn't a lot of money in it, so there hasn't been a lot of research. Fish medicine seems to be faring better because there's a LOT of money in aquaculture and in certain ornamental fish (like koi). Along those lines, if anyone knows about shrimp medicine, it's probably industrial shrimp breeders.

Seachem is pretty tight-lipped about the ingredients in their products, but I think paraguard contains glutaraldehyde, among other things. There's some evidence that molluscs (your snails and the clam) are particularly sensitive to glutaraldehyde. Basically, paraguard might kill some of your livestock, depending on the dose.

I really think that unless you can find something recommended for shrimp and molluscs, you're going to do more harm than good by trying medications approved for other species. If your animals start getting sick, quarantine the affected ones and let it run its course. A UV sterilizer on the quarantine tank might help. Hopefully with good tank maintenance you'll never have to deal with this!

Also, out of curiosity do you remember which dewormer you used earlier?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

ursamajor said:


> Sadly it seems there just isn't much to say about shrimp medicine. I would guess that there isn't a lot of money in it, so there hasn't been a lot of research. Fish medicine seems to be faring better because there's a LOT of money in aquaculture and in certain ornamental fish (like koi). Along those lines, if anyone knows about shrimp medicine, it's probably industrial shrimp breeders.
> 
> Seachem is pretty tight-lipped about the ingredients in their products, but I think paraguard contains glutaraldehyde, among other things. There's some evidence that molluscs (your snails and the clam) are particularly sensitive to glutaraldehyde. Basically, paraguard might kill some of your livestock, depending on the dose.
> 
> ...


Ah how could I forget? Fenbendazole. (Never again!)

Thanks for the info about medicine though. I used to put in the recommended amount for 20 gallons (Of Paraguard), 2 cap-fulls. It didn't seem to do any harm to the shrimp or the snails. Probably if you put too much in it would. I remember reading a thing about a guy who was trying to cure that shrimp fungi, ellobiopsidae. I believe he used paraguard. That's probably where I got the idea to use it for shrimp. Also I had ellobiopsidae in my tank so it was a way for me to feel that I was killing that more. I probably wasn't but hey it was pretty bad stuff and I wanted to kill it all.

So about UV sterilization...briefly...I'm guessing it's ok for quarantine tanks but for normal tanks it would kill all the beneficial nitrifying bacteria and so forth as well?


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

Yeah it may be that the lethal levels I was reading about were well above what you would ever dose in a tank. The dose makes the toxin, after all.

As far as UV sterilization goes, I'm no expert but usually the sterilizer is connected to a filter inlet/outlet, so it is only killing organisms in the water column. Most of your beneficial bacteria live attached to surfaces, so they are minimally affected. It's definitely optional equipment for a tank, but some folks report it helps with cloudy water resulting from bacterial or algae blooms. I think the theory behind using a UV sterilizer in a quarantine tank is that it helps with water sanititation and reduces the re-infection of quarantined animals. I have no idea if this is true, others might be able to weigh in.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Anybody got any recommendations for good algae eaters? Probably a snail..something that won't bother my shrimp of course.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Otos


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Otos


Tried those once. They stressed the shrimp. I think fish are just bad for shrimp, probably because shrimp are used to being far away from them. They don't like the close proximity to any fish.

The algae is pretty extreme with that new light, but the shrimp and snails seem to be eating it. Might not be the best looking tank in the world but I'm pretty desperate to get these shrimp to breed. If they like the algae then ok.

They seem to be doing well after 2 weeks of no water changes. I'm thinking about just not changing the water anymore. It disturbs the entire ecosystem, changes the TDS, the PH...everything. By never changing it, everything in there might do better. Or at least, that's the experiment. I think I finally have enough plant growth to sustain such a thing. There shouldn't be any ammonia in there to speak of, so in that case, why change the water?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

By the way, I would like to say that I believe sand is the best substrate for shrimp. The shrimp can lift up the small grains of sand and get to the detritus underneath the first layer. With gravel, it probably just falls down there and rots. Also, the dwarf hair grass is doing fine in what's basically straight up sand with the high light. No co2! I was worried that grass and sand might be a bad combo but it seems like plants do just fine in it. I'll post pictures after I feel I've finally gathered enough photos. It's pretty inconvenient for me to upload photos so I'm waiting until I have a lot! I think the results will be more impressive by then anyways.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I have finally updated the pictures. Didn't realized I didn't even have any pictures of it with the new light. There are pictures on when I first installed it, some in between, and some just like 10 minutes ago today!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Woah, that's a lotta mystery snails. You know they get pretty big, right? I think it may overstock your tank to let them all grow to maturity. I can't see any of your pics? 

I only keep amano shrimps, nerites and malaysian trumpet snails in terms of invertebrates. I never heard of any medications made for them, in fact most will kill them (whenever I treated my fish for something I had to take the fish out treat separately, or accept some losses). All I know to do if you have a sick shrimp or snail is isolate it, keep the water super clean with wc and hope for the best... . . .


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Woah, that's a lotta mystery snails. You know they get pretty big, right? I think it may overstock your tank to let them all grow to maturity. I can't see any of your pics?
> 
> I only keep amano shrimps, nerites and malaysian trumpet snails in terms of invertebrates. I never heard of any medications made for them, in fact most will kill them (whenever I treated my fish for something I had to take the fish out treat separately, or accept some losses). All I know to do if you have a sick shrimp or snail is isolate it, keep the water super clean with wc and hope for the best... . . .


You can't? You might need to be signed into a google account, I dunno.

Well, ain't no water changes on this tank! Not sure how this is going to turn out, but if it works it means I can get away with breeding shrimp in a 0 water change tank...that would really be something!


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Hm- I am signed in- both to google and to plantedtank. Can see photos on some threads but not others. Weird, I hope it's just a temporary glitch.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I'll provide the main picture, taken today, more directly.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Ah, now I see. Cute how all the snails are together there. Wonder why you have algae only on the short ends of the glass- or did you clean the back and front very well? honesty I don't mind algae on the back glass, I usually keep it clean from the front mainly.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Ah, now I see. Cute how all the snails are together there. Wonder why you have algae only on the short ends of the glass- or did you clean the back and front very well? honesty I don't mind algae on the back glass, I usually keep it clean from the front mainly.


Yeah that's because they all eat that snail food and then they all want to go up the glass at the same time when they're done. I cleaned the front a few days ago. I clean it every once in a while. The algae just peeled off the back somewhat curiously. Probably something to do with the lighting change. It must not like the super bright light. It likes light, but not THAT much light!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

KleineVampir said:


> Anybody got any recommendations for good algae eaters? Probably a snail..something that won't bother my shrimp of course.



Olive Nerites...
The egg thing, in my experience, is overblown..but def. can be an issue for some..
I've personally found it to be only bad at introduction and then periodic..


Some do hate it though.. so be aware..


Just threw 50 in my 40 to clean it..it is sort of amazing.
Oddly, no egg laying at all this time but many were smaller than my usual supply..


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Olive Nerites...
> The egg thing, in my experience, is overblown..but def. can be an issue for some..
> I've personally found it to be only bad at introduction and then periodic..
> 
> ...


It would be interesting to see some before and after shots of your tank with those snails to see how they eat the algae. But, I think I'm just gonna let the algae go. In a no water change tank you need something to get rid of the ammonia...and the shrimp and snails like it too.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

You must have a bunch of berried females now?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

KleineVampir said:


> It would be interesting to see some before and after shots of your tank with those snails to see how they eat the algae. But, I think I'm just gonna let the algae go. In a no water change tank you need something to get rid of the ammonia...and the shrimp and snails like it too.


 https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1282471-release-mini-krakens.html


See the white rock...


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> You must have a bunch of berried females now?


I wish. There are a few with saddles but no berried ones after the one that dropped her eggs. Dunno what the deal is.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Hey guys does anybody know if there's a heater that actually keeps your tank at least a certain temperature? Every time it snows here the basement gets cold and I lose about 3 degrees overnight. You'd think there'd be a heater with an actual thermostat that knows when to kick on and when to turn off rather than something that just turns on for a certain amount of time depending on the setting you put it on.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-E-300...ocphy=9032814&hvtargid=pla-319865086925&psc=1


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Fluval-E-300...ocphy=9032814&hvtargid=pla-319865086925&psc=1


Hey I'll be darned! Thanks for that. Are there any other options you know of or is that about it?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Actually I found one that's better yet (and bought it), but the one you sent got me in the general neighborhood.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07HGV7VRW/ref=od_aui_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

I recommended this heater because i use this heater for over a year when I had shrimp in my 37 gal. Without any problems. Sorry I dont have any experience with other heaters.


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## ThisisCris (Nov 26, 2018)

Hey klien, I don't ever comment on threads but I'm also fairly new to the hobby (2 years) and just wanted to give my 2 cents on what helped my RCS breed.I started a 5.5 heavily planted tank with 5 shrimp + 3 ramshorn snails and could not get them to breed for what seemed like an eternity( more like 5 months). I tried everything. From different foods to changing the temp, even doing 40% water changes every week. What really got the ball rolling was aging my tap water 2 days prior, then treating w prime and letting it sit another couple of hours. It could all be in my head but it seemed to keep the water parameters much more stable when doing PWC's. I'm up to about 20 shrimpies now I try to do PWC's 10-20% once a week but in all honesty I do it every 2-3 weeks.

Tank Inhabs: 2 Guppies, 20 Shrimpos, a bunch of newly hatched ramshorn, and an infestation of seed shrimp.

Water Parameter: 
Ammonia : 0 ppm
Nitrites : 0 ppm
Nitrates : 10 ppm


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

KleineVampir said:


> Hey guys does anybody know if there's a heater that actually keeps your tank at least a certain temperature? Every time it snows here the basement gets cold and I lose about 3 degrees overnight. You'd think there'd be a heater with an actual thermostat that knows when to kick on and when to turn off rather than something that just turns on for a certain amount of time depending on the setting you put it on.


I'm confused, don't all heaters keep your tank at a 'certain temperature'. Unless you are talking about a precise temperature, but most general heaters set to 80degs will keep it in around 80degs. I would think if its set to a precise temperature it would quickly burnout from cycling on and off so often.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> I'm confused, don't all heaters keep your tank at a 'certain temperature'. Unless you are talking about a precise temperature, but most general heaters set to 80degs will keep it in around 80degs. I would think if its set to a precise temperature it would quickly burnout from cycling on and off so often.


Well that's what I thought, until I actually had a heater and realized all it does is turn on a certain amount of time depending on what the setting's on. Like say at 70 degrees it goes on for 1 minute for every 3 minutes. But at 73 degrees it'll be like 1 minute and 20 seconds for every 3 minutes. In other words, they are just preset numbers and the heater does not know what temperature the water actually is. That's why I've set out to change that! Now when my water starts getting below 75, the heater will kick on until it hits about 75, then it'll shut off. But so far as I know you pretty much have to have a separate temperature control device that is a bit more...advanced than just a heater. Though some apparently have the thermostat built in. Yeah. This technology was not as advanced as I expected it would be by now. Or...it can be but you have to jump out of the mainstream and go out of your way to get yourself a really random specific piece of equipment to do it and not just the first or second heater you see.

Yeah I did think about the ramifications of actually having a stable temperature. I'm sure they're better than the ramifications of NOT having a stable temperature, I mean hopefully. But I honestly don't know what will happen if I actually keep my tank at 75 all the time. Like I said, every time it snows, I lose a few degrees. The room probably drops 15 degrees over night (stupid and annoying) so considering, losing 3 isn't bad. But alas, shrimp are sensitive so I'm buying the fancy heater to keep them stable. Night time is when they breed and they probably don't appreciate the temp dropping the whole time.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

ThisisCris said:


> Hey klien, I don't ever comment on threads but I'm also fairly new to the hobby (2 years) and just wanted to give my 2 cents on what helped my RCS breed.I started a 5.5 heavily planted tank with 5 shrimp + 3 ramshorn snails and could not get them to breed for what seemed like an eternity( more like 5 months). I tried everything. From different foods to changing the temp, even doing 40% water changes every week. What really got the ball rolling was aging my tap water 2 days prior, then treating w prime and letting it sit another couple of hours. It could all be in my head but it seemed to keep the water parameters much more stable when doing PWC's. I'm up to about 20 shrimpies now I try to do PWC's 10-20% once a week but in all honesty I do it every 2-3 weeks.
> 
> Tank Inhabs: 2 Guppies, 20 Shrimpos, a bunch of newly hatched ramshorn, and an infestation of seed shrimp.
> 
> ...


Well thanks for breaking your silence for my sake, but...yeah. I have my own issues. First of all that infernal dog dewormer (from hell) that killed all my snails and I haven't been able to breed since. And that was like a year ago. I almost broke down and bought some shrimp for sale today but I'd better hold on and let that poison dissipate for a while longer first. Plus I'm stubborn about not testing my water and now I'm testing out not doing water changes. So...I am an experimenter at heart even though I do want to breed too. If what I do works it'll be amazing. It'll mean you can almost have a fully automated system that breeds shrimp. All you gotta do is feed them. That's all I do now!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Anybody got any bright ideas on how to get rid of detritus worms? I already got a nice lovely big feeding tray, so all my shrimp and big snails can go nuts on it without the crumbs falling into the substrate for the worms. I didn't think such a thing existed, but it does! If anybody's interested I can provide the link.

That tray should be pretty good, but just for the fun of it; what if I put a HOB filter on the tank without the intake sponge? It would just suck up all the worms! Not like there's any shrimp fry in that tank anyways. Not sure if I can even get my little cheap hob functional again.


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## sakura83 (Nov 27, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> Anybody got any bright ideas on how to get rid of detritus worms?


I have used no planaria, shrimpo safe, you can see that here GenChem No Planaria ? Shrimpoly
or use some hungry fish instead :laugh2:


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

KleineVampir said:


> Well that's what I thought, until I actually had a heater and realized all it does is turn on a certain amount of time depending on what the setting's on. Like say at 70 degrees it goes on for 1 minute for every 3 minutes. But at 73 degrees it'll be like 1 minute and 20 seconds for every 3 minutes. In other words, they are just preset numbers and the heater does not know what temperature the water actually is. That's why I've set out to change that! Now when my water starts getting below 75, the heater will kick on until it hits about 75, then it'll shut off. But so far as I know you pretty much have to have a separate temperature control device that is a bit more...advanced than just a heater. Though some apparently have the thermostat built in. Yeah. This technology was not as advanced as I expected it would be by now. Or...it can be but you have to jump out of the mainstream and go out of your way to get yourself a really random specific piece of equipment to do it and not just the first or second heater you see.
> 
> Yeah I did think about the ramifications of actually having a stable temperature. I'm sure they're better than the ramifications of NOT having a stable temperature, I mean hopefully. But I honestly don't know what will happen if I actually keep my tank at 75 all the time. Like I said, every time it snows, I lose a few degrees. The room probably drops 15 degrees over night (stupid and annoying) so considering, losing 3 isn't bad. But alas, shrimp are sensitive so I'm buying the fancy heater to keep them stable. Night time is when they breed and they probably don't appreciate the temp dropping the whole time.


Out of curiosity what is the make/model of the heater you were using that does not have a thermostat? If I am reading what you posted correctly, you are saying that the you set the heater to what ever setting you want, lets say 70 for this example. Once the heater goes below 70 it will come on for 1 minute and shut off again and then 3 minutes later it comes on again for another minute? How does the heater know when to come on? You must have to set it to some preset temperature? It must also have a built in timer to know to stay on for one minute then go off and then to come back on again after three minutes?


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

All aquarium heaters have a thermostat control. The rapid cycling you are noticing is because the thermocouple and heating element are usually inside the same unit. If there is a lot of water flow, this reduces the tendency of the heating element to cause the thermocouple to trigger shut off before the surrounding water heats up to the desired temperature. Some of the more advanced heaters isolate the thermocouple from the heating element so that the thermocouple is actually reading the water temperature separate from the heating element. This allows the heater to keep running until the surrounding water reaches the desired temperature.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

AguaScape said:


> All aquarium heaters have a thermostat control. The rapid cycling you are noticing is because the thermocouple and heating element are usually inside the same unit. If there is a lot of water flow, this reduces the tendency of the heating element to cause the thermocouple to trigger shut off before the actual water heats up to the desired temperature. Some of the more advanced heaters isolate the thermocouple from the heating element so that the thermocouple is actually reading the water temperature separate from the heating element. This allows the heater to keep running until the surrounding water reaches the desired temperature.


Then how could I set my heater to 69 and it brings my temp up to 75? That is what my heater actually does or at least has done in the past. If it was measuring the heated water then the water should be too cold, not too hot. Now it's too cold to heat it up that much...but it would were it a little warmer in the old basement. Besides, I have watched it and timed how long it's on as indicated by it's light. It just lights up for a certain amount of time per a longer amount of time, the same every time. I have to say that I disagree with the premise that all aquarium heaters have built-in thermostats.

Bump:


slipfinger said:


> Out of curiosity what is the make/model of the heater you were using that does not have a thermostat? If I am reading what you posted correctly, you are saying that the you set the heater to what ever setting you want, lets say 70 for this example. Once the heater goes below 70 it will come on for 1 minute and shut off again and then 3 minutes later it comes on again for another minute? How does the heater know when to come on? You must have to set it to some preset temperature? It must also have a built in timer to know to stay on for one minute then go off and then to come back on again after three minutes?


I believe it's a 50 watt Hydor. Not sure about the exact make and model.

See, there's no such thing as "Once the heater goes below 70 it will come on..." It doesn't measure temperature at all. For example, it just comes on for say 10 seconds per minute. Turn it up, now it's 15 seconds per minute. It has no idea what temperature it is, it's just preset to go for certain amounts of time. The temperature markings are all a sham! xD


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> Then how could I set my heater to 69 and it brings my temp up to 75? That is what my heater actually does or at least has done in the past. If it was measuring the heated water then the water should be too cold, not too hot. Now it's too cold to heat it up that much...but it would were it a little warmer in the old basement. Besides, I have watched it and timed how long it's on as indicated by it's light. It just lights up for a certain amount of time per a longer amount of time, the same every time. I have to say that I disagree with the premise that all aquarium heaters have built-in thermostats.
> 
> Bump: I believe it's a 50 watt Hydor. Not sure about the exact make and model.
> 
> See, there's no such thing as "Once the heater goes below 70 it will come on..." It doesn't measure temperature at all. For example, it just comes on for say 10 seconds per minute. Turn it up, now it's 15 seconds per minute. It has no idea what temperature it is, it's just preset to go for certain amounts of time. The temperature markings are all a sham! xD


Most heaters do not indicate the exact temperature that you will get. There is some variance between heaters. Even between different heaters of the exact same model. For example. I have a Fluval heater with external digital thermostat that indicates 83 degrees and the actual temperature of the water is 79 degrees. I have other heaters that read lower than the actual temperature. It is always advisable to find out what the actual temperature is and adjust the setting to compensate. The heater you linked up earlier is much better than most "all in one" tube type heaters and should maintain accuracy much better than a standard tube heater. The point I was trying to make is that all heaters have a thermostatic control (some more accurate than others). And, that one of the reasons for rapid cycling is that the heater element is not well isolated from the thermocouple in most heaters. Side question. Is the Hydor you mention an in-line? or the submersible? The reason I ask is that the thermocouple on an in-line is usually on the intake end of the heater which will more accurately read the water temperature separately from the effect of the heating element. It would still be subject to the variance between indicated and actual temperature that should be adjusted for.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

sakura83 said:


> I have used no planaria, shrimpo safe, you can see that here GenChem No Planaria ? Shrimpoly
> or use some hungry fish instead :laugh2:


Well, not that it's for sale or anything anyways, but just out of curiosity: Does it kill all your snails? Because I keep mystery snails. Lots of them. Not going through another snail massacre again.

Seems like it always comes back to fish. Is there a fish that would be particularly good for this job? Something that could be alone, not bother shrimp, and eat worms.

I'd still love to have another way besides fish! The feeding dish will help, can't wait for that, but nothing beats a trap! I'd love to trap those suckers in something! Maybe a functional HOB filter would be the way to go. (Mine didn't work btw.)

Bump:


AguaScape said:


> Most heaters do not indicate the exact temperature that you will get. There is some variance between heaters. Even between different heaters of the exact same model. It is always advisable to find out what the actual temperature is and adjust the setting to compensate. The heater you linked up earlier is much better than most "all in one" tube type heaters and should maintain accuracy much better than a standard all in one tube heater. The point I was trying to make is that all heaters have a thermostatic control (some more accurate than others). And, that one of the reasons for rapid cycling is that the heater element is not well isolated from the thermocouple in most heaters. Side question. Is the Hydor you mention an in-line? or the submersible?


It's a submersible. The concept of an "in-line" heater is a new one to me! I'm guessing you have to have water running through it for it to heat? Seems like that would be hard to make happen.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> Bump: It's a submersible. The concept of an "in-line" heater is a new one to me! I'm guessing you have to have water running through it for it to heat? Seems like that would be hard to make happen.


That is exactly what it is. It is usually used in-line with a canister filter, but it can also be used with a power head. It heats the water as it circulates through the heater. It is usually used on larger tanks than yours. Hydor is probably the most popular brands of in-line heaters, which is why I was asking. I edited the last post to explain more of why I asked.


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## sakura83 (Nov 27, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> Well, not that it's for sale or anything anyways, but just out of curiosity: Does it kill all your snails? Because I keep mystery snails. Lots of them. Not going through another snail massacre again.
> 
> Seems like it always comes back to fish. Is there a fish that would be particularly good for this job? Something that could be alone, not bother shrimp, and eat worms.
> 
> ...


I haven't noticed any dead snail or shrimp after no planaria. It seems that product is good. I think any fish with large enough mouth will do the job


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## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

KleineVampir said:


> See, there's no such thing as "Once the heater goes below 70 it will come on..." It doesn't measure temperature at all. For example, it just comes on for say 10 seconds per minute. Turn it up, now it's 15 seconds per minute. It has no idea what temperature it is, it's just preset to go for certain amounts of time. The temperature markings are all a sham! xD


Your idea of a heater coming on for 10 seconds a minute is miss guided information. Most commercially bought heaters do not work like this at all. They work off a thermostat just like the heater in your house, you set the thermostat in your house to the desired temperature and the house tries to maintain that temperature. Will every room in the house be the exact same temperature? Not a chance, there are to many variables involved. Maybe an upstairs window is cracked open in the middle of the winter, that room is sure to be cooler then say the main floor where the thermostat is located. Just like your tank, if you have the heater in the far back corner and it does not get a lot of flow, it can be warmer in that area compared to opposite end of the tank. So the heater shuts down because 'it' thinks the water is at the set temperature.

Regarding the numbers on the actual heater. The heater was probably calibrated in a controlled environment, under strict conditions. Our tanks are not controlled environments, where you place the heater, the flow around the heater, picking the right size heater for your tank, all these play a factor in how well and how accurate the numbers on the heater will be compared to the actual temp of the tank water. 

In the end, you purchased a temperature controller so you don't need to worry about any of this. But I just wanted to point out to other people that maybe reading this journal that normally heaters work off a thermostat and not how it was described in the above posts.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> Your idea of a heater coming on for 10 seconds a minute is miss guided information. Most commercially bought heaters do not work like this at all. They work off a thermostat just like the heater in your house, you set the thermostat in your house to the desired temperature and the house tries to maintain that temperature. Will every room in the house be the exact same temperature? Not a chance, there are to many variables involved. Maybe an upstairs window is cracked open in the middle of the winter, that room is sure to be cooler then say the main floor where the thermostat is located. Just like your tank, if you have the heater in the far back corner and it does not get a lot of flow, it can be warmer in that area compared to opposite end of the tank. So the heater shuts down because 'it' thinks the water is at the set temperature.
> 
> Regarding the numbers on the actual heater. The heater was probably calibrated in a controlled environment, under strict conditions. Our tanks are not controlled environments, where you place the heater, the flow around the heater, picking the right size heater for your tank, all these play a factor in how well and how accurate the numbers on the heater will be compared to the actual temp of the tank water.
> 
> In the end, you purchased a temperature controller so you don't need to worry about any of this. But I just wanted to point out to other people that maybe reading this journal that normally heaters work off a thermostat and not how it was described in the above posts.


Alright fine..maybe they do have thermostats. I still find they're so gosh darned silly that they might as well not. I'm gonna try the temp controller..was supposed to arrive today but I guess it's running a day late.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok I got the new heater in there. It's pretty heavy duty action for that little 20 gallon tank but I do have the feeling it's better. The thing is, it's like pick your poison. Stick the thermometer where you want and that's where it will measure it from. Stick it near the heater and your tank will run cooler. Put it further away and your tank will run hotter. I put mine far away because I thought that would be a better overall measure, but considering they're on opposite sides of the 20 gallon long...meaning not a lot of that water is getting all the way from one end of the tank from the other...The thermometer is measuring the water at almost its coolest point, the furthest from the heater. So I set it to 72 degrees, meaning that'll be the minimum temperature of the tank. I'm sure the max will be a few degrees warmer, maybe 75. I'm ok with one end of the tank being 75 and one being 72. That seems pretty good for shrimp and they can pick the temp they like. Hopefully they don't get stressed by jumping through 3 different degrees F of water in 5 seconds! Hm...never though of that.

Hm, you know what, I'm gonna move it to the back in the middle of the tank. The flow might not be as high but let's face it, the flow isn't high anywhere in that tank. Might as well be in the middle so it's as even as possible with maybe a bit of a colder area on either end.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Sound like you could use a little water circulation. I imagine it is difficult to supply circulation safely in a shrimp tank. I do not have any experience with shrimp.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

AguaScape said:


> Sound like you could use a little water circulation. I imagine it is difficult to supply circulation safely in a shrimp tank. I do not have any experience with shrimp.


Yeah...Well shrimp need low flow. The thing is, the sponge filter is generally good enough to keep the water moving, but in my case I have that big moss clump next to it. So the clump is stopping an increasing amount of the flow as it gets bigger. At first it wasn't too bad but now it's really starting to choke the flow. It is what it is, I'm not gonna move it now since it's growing so beautifully, and also since it tends to drift towards the sponge anyways over time, so it's already at it's natural resting place.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Here's a small update and an updated picture. The snails are getting pretty big, all the plants are growing including the grass.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

That's a huge clump of moss. Theres probably hundreds of baby shrimp hiding in there


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> That's a huge clump of moss. Theres probably hundreds of baby shrimp hiding in there


I wish! Sadly I don't think that's happening.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Welp, I just bought 20 crystal red shrimp! It'll be a while before they actually show up, especially since it's winter; but I'll be sure to send pictures when they do finally get here!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm thinking I should get another piece of driftwood. They say CRS like lower PH.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I think this experiment is coming to a head. I might have to admit that parameters matter! Then again, honestly I'm not totally convinced. My house is being worked on and there's a lot of wack sh*t in the air and honestly I think that's part of why the shrimp aren't breeding. It's either that or the stupid parameters. I guess I'll finally have to break down and get a test kit.

I thought that plants would go a long ways towards regulating all the parameters without intervention. According to what I've been learning, that should basically be the case. But maybe the ammonia levels are not being kept as low as they need to be.

Also I think the shrimp have been dying and eaten by the snails overnight. Either that or lots of shrimp are hiding in that moss. Just seems like the shrimp population is awfully low! And yet I'm not taking out ANY dead shrimp, not a single one...suspiciously since the snails got big. Coincidence? I think not! The up-side is that the tank is extremely easy to take care of. All I do is feed them and put in some more water just to compensate for evaporation. But man, let me tell you, those snails must be eating every part of those shrimp because I don't see any signs of dead shrimp. Not a single leg or anything.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

The shrimps will eat each other, if some die. I had one die of old age, and I watched the others tear it apart. There's nothing left when they are done.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Yep your definetly going to need to know and control water parameters if you plan on keeping Crystal's. Imo Neos are the most bullet proof of all shrimps. If they are dying off for an unknown reason because parameters aren't checked, and met. I wouldn't reccomend trying to throw Crystal's in the mix.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Yep your definetly going to need to know and control water parameters if you plan on keeping Crystal's. Imo Neos are the most bullet proof of all shrimps. If they are dying off for an unknown reason because parameters aren't checked, and met. I wouldn't reccomend trying to throw Crystal's in the mix.


Well I have a couple weeks yet probably. And yes I did have this worry since this is a slightly different species from what I'm used to. What do you reckon I should do? Got any tips for hitting some important parameters? I'm not gonna measure it if there's nothing I can do about it anyways.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

You could get a TDs and ph meter on amazon for under $30 for both. Then will need to get gh and kh test kits. Most people that keep Crystal's and other types of shrimp use RO water to have more control of stability and particularly parameters. That's a reason why I stick with my cherries. It's not as critical to be on point. Besides the fact they aren't as expensive as the other shrimp. But i still would reccomend you testing you water. Just to prevent anymore casualties. I am sure you would be stoked once you can get a colony going.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

https://www.discobee.com/blogs/news/17030569-dwarf-shrimp-water-parameters


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

RO unit is not cheap. Or efficient. And so what if I measure those? What am I gonna do about any of it? Can you give me one example of a parameter I could measure and do something about?


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Everything depends on the amount effort you want to put into it. People get RO from stores too if you don't want get your own. But without knowing your tap water parameters it's hard to judge what needs to be done. TDs,ph,and water hardness are the main parameters you need know for keeping shrimp. Ph can be lowered using Almond leaves, drift or cholla wood, and peatmoss. TDs,gh,nitrates can lowered by water changes. But if your tap is already high, then RO would be the way to go. Cherries can tolerate a wider range of these, that's why they are usually recommended for a starter shrimp. Once someone gets into a habit of controlling and keeping proper parameters. Then you can upgrade to more difficult shrimp to keep.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I would own up to it, but honestly I still don't know if chasing parameters is worth a gosh darn. But I guess as part 2 of this experiment I will chase parameters like a mad man and see if it makes any difference.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Kinda stuck on what to get, to test the water. Got any recommendations?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok I bought some stuff. An electronic PH meter, another electronic meter for TDS, and then a GH/KH test kit with test tubes and so forth.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Awesome. What were your results?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

KZB said:


> Awesome. What were your results?


I just bought them. I don't have them yet! They're in the mail.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok the results are in!

TDS - 249 (Really high I can only guess)
KH - 3
GH - 6

According to the Discobee params, I'm ok on KH and GH. I don't think those are worth messing with. The TDS, however, is extremely high. That's my take but by all means tell me what I should do at this point! Should I test my tap water too? Seems like it would make sense if that's what I'd be adding. And if I do, should I put the water conditioner in there first?


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Your results look good for kh and gh. The tds can be lowered, but your cherries should be ok in that. My kids shrimp tank stays around 100-150tds. Temp 75-80 range. And the cherries breed like crazy. There are articles out there that explain the warmer waters promotes cherries to breed faster, but shorter lifespan. Cooler water, slower breeding but longer lifespans. Most the babies I feed to my fish. The others i use to cycle out bigger shrimp for breeding. Yes it's always a good idea to check your tap too. Put water in a 5gal bucket with Prime and aerator over night and test in the morning.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

If my TDS doesn't even have to be lowered that much...seems like there could be a better and cheaper way to lower it than buying a full-on RO water system. What do you think the problem with the bloody marys is then? They aren't breeding in this water. BTW my tap seems about the same. It's in the mid 200's, but a little lower than the aquarium I think. More like 230.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Also I bought an ammonia, nitrate, and nitrite test kit. That should be here by Monday along with the PH meter.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

My next question is, how much does TDS and all these other parameters matter? Like what's the most important parameter, and what's the least? (For shrimp!)


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

They say PH is the most important. If my PH is too high I'm inclined to just put in more driftwood. My next question is, about ammonia and NH3 and NH4. How much of each is ok? I know ammonia is pretty bad, but still.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok I did the ammonia test, I guess it's just one thing and not 3 like I thought. I didn't realize that ammonia and NH3 and NH4 are the same thing. Or at least it's the same test. I'm a little confused on that but the test came up at about 1.0. My take is that it's considerably more than I'd want but definitely not so bad that everything's dying fast. Either way, the crystals just shipped today so I'm gonna need RO water and fast. That's the bottom line. The answer to the question: Do I need to change the water? - Is yes. And not with just any water, has to be RO water. I'm going to have to just grab a bunch at the LFS until I get my very own RO water system, which, since we're re-doing our kitchen right now, I'll try to get incorporated as a RO water system for shrimp and for drinking water at the same time. Quite ingeniously I might add! Might as well enjoy good drinking water if I'm going to spend 100-300 on an RO unit! Then again we'll see how that works out. Not sure how I'm gonna get the water from that, coming out of my sink and into a bucket, but heck I can solve that problem. I'm thinking I'll just cut a pipe in half and ramp that water down into the bucket...something like that. With a little American ingenuity I'm sure I can duel-purpose the machine into aquarium and drinking water!


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Awesome, with an RO unit and some research you are basically limitless to the type of shrimp you can keep. Good for you. I hope everything works out.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I just bought one, here it is: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01FNAPGPA/ref=ppx_od_dt_b_detailpages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm gonna have to go to the fish store to get their RO water because apparently the crystals are on their way now. Hopefully not all my other shrimp and snails will die because of the huge TDS reduction. I'm not doing no re-mineralization...I think the mineral stone that I already have in the tank is enough. My goal is to only change the water enough to keep the TDS low. So I'll probably end up taking out some water, not much... Just like 30 seconds of siphoning through the sand and then I'll replace with the RO water. The idea is to change the other parameters as little as possible while maintaining the right TDS and taking out some ammonia in the process. Not sure how hard it's going to be to try to balance all these parameters but I guess I'll find out soon enough!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well this was quite the day in aquatics for me! First I got the RO water from the fish store, then when I got back my shrimp showed up! They are quite juvenile, which is good. However, I only did half my bucket worth of water change so the TDS is not quite down low enough yet. I didn't want to kill all the shrimp and snails already in the tank. I think tomorrow I'll measure the TDS again and probably end up doing the rest of the RO water to drop it as low as I possibly can.

I'll say that the approximate 2 1/2 gallon water change has apparently brought me from about 250 to 200. However I also learned that the TDS does not drop right away since I disturbed my water. Right after I put in the RO water, I measured it and it was still about 250. At first I thought that the guy at the store gave me tap water! Then I tested the RO water and the TDS was indeed 3. So it is very good RO water but the disturbance makes the TDS readings meaningless for a while.

Also, importantly, I got my test tube holder in the mail! They kept giving me all these test tubes in these testing kits and it really didn't feel right not to have a test tube holder. I got a picture of that even though it's probably outside of the scope of aquatics, ha. Anyways pictures are soon to come.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Somebody try this link and see what happens:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jNrnRjMLjqJsTzWS9


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I don't know why my java fern isn't doing well. There's a picture of it in there if anybody can see those. The newest ones are at the bottom by the way.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It looks like you have the rhizome buried. It's an epiphyte plant, you need to just bury the roots and leave the rhizome on top of the substrate or better yet, tie the plant onto something. Older leaves will gradually die off and new ones grow if it's still adjusting to your tank. But maybe don't cut the old leaves off yet, wait and see if new babies sprout from the leaf surface.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> It looks like you have the rhizome buried. It's an epiphyte plant, you need to just bury the roots and leave the rhizome on top of the substrate or better yet, tie the plant onto something. Older leaves will gradually die off and new ones grow if it's still adjusting to your tank. But maybe don't cut the old leaves off yet, wait and see if new babies sprout from the leaf surface.


Are you sure it isn't just the snails? Lol. It was doing fine before they got really big.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

You mean the snails ate the leaves, or the snails buried the rhizome with their activity? I don't know. I thought java fern was pretty tough, but your snails are pretty big maybe they chowed on it.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> You mean the snails ate the leaves, or the snails buried the rhizome with their activity? I don't know. I thought java fern was pretty tough, but your snails are pretty big maybe they chowed on it.


Lol yeah they are huge and they eat a lot. I meant I think the snails are just eating the leaves.

Edit: Does anybody know if nerites would eat hair algae? There is a bunch of hair algae on top of my Java moss trying to soak up those rays near the top of the tank.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm thinking about switching from the mystery snails to nerites. I like the mystery snails but they might just be too darn big and ornery for this tank. Nerites would probably control the algae better and not bother the shrimp as much. And hopefully wouldn't crowd out the shrimp. Every time I feed there is a big crowd of those big snails and the shrimp have to hop around in between them to have any chance of getting something.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Also thinking about Ramshorn snails since I like the idea of constantly breeding them rather than having to buy them once a year or so. But are ramshorn basically pest snails that will completely take over my tank?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My shrimp ate hair algae when I had some in the tank. I never saw nerites eat it.

Bump:


KleineVampir said:


> Also thinking about Ramshorn snails since I like the idea of constantly breeding them rather than having to buy them once a year or so. But are ramshorn basically pest snails that will completely take over my tank?


Yeah, they can overpopulate pretty quickly if there's food source. I have ramshorns in two of my tanks, but I have fish in there that eat them, so their numbers are kept in check.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> My shrimp ate hair algae when I had some in the tank. I never saw nerites eat it.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Yeah, they can overpopulate pretty quickly if there's food source. I have ramshorns in two of my tanks, but I have fish in there that eat them, so their numbers are kept in check.


Interesting. One of these days I'll have to make a tank with fish in it where the ecosystem actually makes sense!

Well I stared at my tank and contemplated what to do...turns out I want to keep my mystery snails. So what I did was get a selective feeder that will keep the snails out! https://www.elevateshrimp.com/products/amano-shrimp-selective-feeder


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

KleineVampir said:


> ......So what I did was get a selective feeder that will keep the snails out! https://www.elevateshrimp.com/products/amano-shrimp-selective-feeder


That thing looks pretty useful. I need something like that to selectively feed my kuhli loaches (and not the fish)!


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Ramshorns are pretty cool. I had them for a while, never did over populate. I dont think I ever had any babies. But I also have dwarf crayfish they probably ate them. I been thinking of getting Zebra nerite but I dont have a covered lid i think they would escape. Only 1 way to find out hahaha


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

I've never seen my nerites eat the rapidly growing hair algae in my tank - I've actually ended up getting amanos to help out with this.
@KZB I've had several in uncovered tanks and have had one escapee. You might get lucky, you might not!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

I just got this in the mail a few days ago. I like it quite a bit. Its super cheap and for a 20 gallon it works great. Will pay for itself in probably 10 water changes or so. Just got to make sure the connectors are pushed together really tight so it wont leak. I just set it on the counter and let the waste water go down the drain and the filtered into a rubbermaid trash can that i got at home depot for $10. A lot more convenient that hauling jugs around as well.

https://www.chewy.com/aquatic-life-ro-buddie-three-stage/dp/146152


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> That thing looks pretty useful. I need something like that to selectively feed my kuhli loaches (and not the fish)!


Yeah I've been thinking about a contraption that would feed shrimp and not big snails even better...Like a cube on the end of a tube. The food would go through the tube and land in a cube, which has holes for the shrimp to come in. Not sure if something like that would work but I was thinking about maybe trying to create one just for the heck of it. For now though, yeah I just got that dome and another feeding platform since the snails basically take up one just themselves.

But as far as ramshorns, I'm just going to stick with the mystery snails for now. Sometime down the line I'll try other ones and then I can decide what actually goes best with shrimp. I heard MTS are good too since they sift through the substrate. But those are another one that breed out of control.

And about that RO device...well, too late for me since I already have one in the mail. I did see that one but I also have the dream of using this for drinking water too since our drinking water situation in this house isn't great. We're just using those pitchers with filters, and those are a bit of a pain to have to constantly fill up every time you use them. I'm going to see if I can get this RO system hooked up under my sink even though there's no remineralizer and it's for the aquarium, ha.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Welp, looks like my PH is within acceptable parameters. It's reading about 6.25 or so. My TDS is down to 130. I don't really know what else I can possibly do at this point! The RO machine should be here in a week or two so I won't have to go to the fish store every time I want to do a water change. I'm thinking I'll change the water every time the TDS gets too high. The mineral stone should be remineralizing the water for the shrimp and the plants, but it will probably take a while.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

Aquatic life does make a drinking water kit but I do not know how much it cost. You probably got a better unit anyways. I would recommend it for someone that only wants it for aquarium use for water changes. Its great for the money. But you do get what you pay for. So do not feel too bad about it haha.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

FranklyFish said:


> Aquatic life does make a drinking water kit but I do not know how much it cost. You probably got a better unit anyways. I would recommend it for someone that only wants it for aquarium use for water changes. Its great for the money. But you do get what you pay for. So do not feel too bad about it haha.


Yeah I definitely thought about getting that but I decided to go for something that looked like it could handle a bit more volume since I'm trying to stretch it into being a drinking water source too.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm wondering if I should get amanos for that hair algae.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well my PH crept up to about 7 which is a little high. I think the RO water changed my KH and GH to the extent where my PH changed. As much as I hate it, I might have to get that remineralizer. I think they call it salty shrimp or something like that.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

I usually do about 3/4 to 2/3 RO water and 1/4 to 1/3 treated tap water and never bothered with remineralizer. And amanos are a great addition. They will help deal with the hair algae. And if your tank has a lot of plants you could probably add some otto cats. Probably 3, they will keep your tank clean.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well I got the RO unit today but we've been dealing with a bunch of plumbing issues, so I haven't really gotten around to messing with it. Besides the salty shrimp stuff is on the way. I guess the trick is to have the TDS low but have the right KH and GH, and therefore PH. Sure I got my TDS low with the RO water but then my PH started getting a bit out of whack. Or either way, seems like everybody says the salty shrimp stuff helps their shrimp.

Also it may or may not be of interest to you guys that I talked to the plumber about the RO system while he was here and he said I should just set it up in the basement and somehow run a line up to the kitchen sink, which honestly I don't know how that water is gonna go up like that and into another room, but...that was his recommendation. We'll just have to see how Operation: Get the RO system to be for the aquarium and our drinking water too, goes.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I put some of that shrimp mineral stuff right into the water, which I know you're not supposed to do but whatever. The RO I put in there previously was definitely not mineralized in any way. It shot the TDS up from about 140 to about 180, but... hey at least that means it actually dissolves in the water. It is a very fine powder. In the next few days I'll have to hook up that RO system. Not really looking forward to that plumbing job tbh...RO system sounds great until you gotta actually work on it, ha.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

The more I think about it, and after I actually used it, I'm starting to think the remineralizer isn't actually necessary unless you actually need higher TDS in your water. Given that I have the mineral stone in my water I don't think I'll actually need it. I might, though, if I change enough of that water with RO.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Welp, me and my dad tried putting that RO system onto the laundry faucets and it didn't work. The connector leaked so now we're just getting an adoptor, which is going to split the faucets into 2 faucets, which we need to do anyways, and hope that the threads on the adopter are better than our old threads on the old faucet.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

WE GOT BABIES! Tiny shrimpy babies! Not sure if they are bloody mary or CRS babies though since they are just transparent and slightly orange. I have really bad pictures of them but honestly they're so bad that I don't know if I'm really gonna even bother uploading them.

I have to say, this happened shortly after introducing RO water to the system. So those RO water changes are probably a huge factor in all of this. They probably appreciate water that has no copper from the pipes, lower TDS, and less ammonia.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

There hasn't been babies in that tank for over a year!


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Glad to hear that. Congratulations!!!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

Nice! I always find that my shrimp all shed. And then breed after a water change. I recommend some otto cats just for fun. They look pretty cool, stay really small, and are 100% guaranteed to never eat even the smallest of shrimps. Plus they are a lot of fun to watch! In my 20 gallon shrimp tank i had 4 of them and never once had to clean algae off of the glass because they kept everything clean. And as far as feeding if you put any leave litter or any veggies in for your shrimp they will munch on that too. They are my second favorite fish besides the hillstream loach. The biggest factor is making sure there is enough calcium in the water so they shed properly.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

FranklyFish said:


> Nice! I always find that my shrimp all shed. And then breed after a water change. I recommend some otto cats just for fun. They look pretty cool, stay really small, and are 100% guaranteed to never eat even the smallest of shrimps. Plus they are a lot of fun to watch! In my 20 gallon shrimp tank i had 4 of them and never once had to clean algae off of the glass because they kept everything clean. And as far as feeding if you put any leave litter or any veggies in for your shrimp they will munch on that too. They are my second favorite fish besides the hillstream loach. The biggest factor is making sure there is enough calcium in the water so they shed properly.


Well, I guess I'll set the record straight on my view of fish. I don't keep any fish in my shrimp tanks. When I did, the shrimp seemed to get stressed and die and vowed to never again put fish in my tanks. In my experience, it's just a bad idea to have any fish in a shrimp breeding tank. Those would be great for another freshwater tank though since algae is constantly growing in a well-lit tank. One day I plan on having a tank that has algae eaters and worm-eaters so I just have a tank that looks good and makes sense ecosystem-wise.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Once your tank has an established colony of shrimp (atleast 4 generations). By that time you will have a few hundreds, not including uncountable amount of babies. They will feel much safer less stressed from having fish around. Other wise you are doing the right thing keeping fish out of the scene for now.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

When i had a shrimp tank I had gone from 9 to more than 50 in a manner of weeks it seemed. I had otto cats in there from the start and when i added spinach or zucchini shrimp and the ottos would be found feasting along side one another. Sometimes shrimp even crawling on the fish. I was not trying to be pushy or anything, I just really enjoy otto cats. Cherry shrimp always seemed incredibly brave or maybe just stupid to me. In my 75 gallon community tank I see them swimming around in open waters sometimes and wonder what they are thinking. The amanos and ghost shrimp always seemed to be a lot more careful and don't venture out into the "open" waters.

If you do set up another community tank with algae eaters you should definitely get some hillstream loaches. They are pretty cool and unique fish.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I dunno. To me it's just one more thing to worry about. I decided it's just not worth it to try to add fish. Maybe one day when I have shrimp coming out of my ears, but for now it's not for me.

I FINALLY got that second feeding platform and the AmaNo! (gotta love that name!) selective feeder thing. Even though it's meant to keep amanos out, it'll work for snails, too!

Honestly I am pretty concerned about my shrimp's eating habits. It seems like when I feed the pellets, the snails eat them but the shrimp seem to have just given up on fighting them for food. That's why I even got the second platform, because I intend to feed snail food on one side and shrimp food on the other. I gotta say that dome is a bit of a centerpiece. It's actually kinda cool! Anyways the shrimp must really just be living on all the algae in the tank, of which there is no shortage of. I know shrimp can live on algae to an extent but it's my understanding that they also need protein. Probably because they scavenged some 'meat' in the wild.

The real question is, how am I gonna get pellets into that dome? There is a decent-sized slit on top, big enough for pellets but just barely. Seems like I'd need a straw, but something a little thinner than the kind of straws we usually would have. But not a stir stick either! Hm...it's weird. I'll probably just end up dropping them close to the dome and shoving them in with one of my aquascaping tools.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Upon further thought I'll probably end up using planting tongs to insert the pellets. It's probably a bit difficult but I can't see a better way. I wonder if the shrimp will even go in there to eat! I'd better start with just one pellet and I'll probably end up taking the dome out to let the snails eat whatever's left after a certain amount of time.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Foiled again, darn it! The snails have lifted up the sides of the dome to get the food! I guess it just isn't heavy enough. I didn't think the snails had it in them, but I guess when food is on the line they are quite tenacious!

The good news is that I've spotted about 12 babies at once this morning since they are getting old enough to venture out of the moss. I thought it was kind of a botched half batch, but it looks more like a full batch! Sadly I think they're bloody mary's rather than CRS. That's ok though.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm already formulating the counterattack, and I think what I'm gonna do is super glue the dome to the middle of the platform. Super glue is actually ok for aquariums if I remember right.

The only way for them to beat me then would be to up-end the entire platform, releasing the pellets in the process. If they do that, though, I will have proven that mystery snails have a great deal more intelligence than anybody ever thought! And of course I highly doubt they'll be able to figure that out, if they can even physically manage to do it.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok so I ordered the super glue. 12 dollars it cost me for that! The other thing that's on the way is the adapter for the RO unit. They were kind enough to send me that free of charge, but I really think it should come with what they're getting me from the get-go. When I called it seemed like it was not the first time this happened, so at that point why not just solve the problem from the beginning? It's weird, but I should be getting that within the next few days.

One more thing, really the saddest thing of today (not the fact that they're bloody mary babies) is that the mother of the babies has died. I mean, probably. Sadly I watched a big female bloody mary die today. She probably died because she forwent molting to have the babies. She had the 'long legs' problem where she wasn't able to get the molt off her feet. I also noticed this problem on a male bloody mary but I noticed he seemed to be fine. He just had longer legs than normal. If anybody knows what's going on with that, please let me know. I think the mineral content of the tank is sufficient so I'm not sure how to deal with that. Perhaps nothing can be done. Bad molts can happen to any shrimp, most likely.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I left her body in for science, and to feed the snails. I confirmed 100% that the snails do eat the dead shrimp since she was in plain view. Maybe I'm just an extreme utilitarian, but the mystery snails do a nice job of eating the dead shrimp so that I don't have to fish them out and flush them down the toilet every time one dies. It's not glamorous but it does work! If I had tons of shrimp and they were dying constantly, I'd definitely want the mystery snails in there to just eat them up. It also keeps the tank clear of any rotting corpses that I might not be able to see or get to.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Another question is, am I really about to put super glue in my tank? I just got babies and I certainly don't want to mess everything up now!


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Super glue is completely benign in aquariums, I (and many others have) used it all the time in reef aquariums to attach stony corals to rock. The water actually speeds up the curing process, so the glue hardens faster in water than air. Shouldn't be a problem for your shrimp.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

tredford said:


> Super glue is completely benign in aquariums, I (and many others have) used it all the time in reef aquariums to attach stony corals to rock. The water actually speeds up the curing process, so the glue hardens faster in water than air. Shouldn't be a problem for your shrimp.


Yeah I did read that but you know most of these people are not caring for a species as sensitive as shrimp. Anyways thanks for the confidence boost. I think I will do it after all!


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## CMcNam (Dec 5, 2018)

I have two different species of cherry shrimp in my tanks alongside rainbowfish, otocinclus, and harlequin rasboras, and none of them have been affected by the super glue I use to keep the buce and anubias attached to the driftwood. The orange sakura (which ironically enough means "cherry" in Japanese) shrimp in one tank and the red cherry shrimp in the other are both breeding prolifically under heavy plant fertilization, CO2 injection, glutaraldehyde supplementation, and the use of super glue.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well, gosh guys. I did super glue that dome onto the platform, and... It doesn't look like the shrimp even want to eat out of that dome! It might take a while before they get used to it though. I gotta say, they must really be on an algae diet. I also theorize that they're getting protein from dying worms in the tank. That would explain why they don't seem to care much for solid food anymore.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well I just saw a pregnant bloody mary, and boy is she RED as can be! Red legs and everything. So hopefully she has those babies.

I'll do some research but the hair algae problem in the tank is pretty extensive...so I'm seriously considering getting some Amanos. If you don't think I should get them, speak now or forever hold your peace!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

Amano shrimp are amazing. They are way better algae eaters than cherry or ghost shrimp. Granted they won’t solve your hair algae problem completely. An easy way to remove that stuff is using an old tooth brush and twirling it up like you would with a fork and spaghetti.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

Another interesting thing you could add to your tank is a rabbit/elephant snail. They are quite hilarious to watch as they “hop” around with their long trunks. I get a kick out of watching mine fumble around my 75 gallon.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

FranklyFish said:


> Another interesting thing you could add to your tank is a rabbit/elephant snail. They are quite hilarious to watch as they “hop” around with their long trunks. I get a kick out of watching mine fumble around my 75 gallon.


That may be, but I NEED something to eat that hair algae. And I'm thinking I'd need a lot of amanos to do it. But honestly I don't know how much algae they eat. My tank has a lot of algae though, so I'm thinking 10 amanos would be enough to where they're desperate enough to be eating hair algae.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Welp that didn't take long. I decided to order 5. On second thought, 10 seems like a bit much if they are going to be 3 inches long. I was going to wait a week for the LFS but lets face it: I just don't have the patience! Plus shrimp from LFS usually suck ime. These are from flipaquatics which I now prefer since they have 30 day quarantine (so no diseased shrimp) and they tend to send the youngest and therefore best for breeding shrimp.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well well well....Look who got the RO system running! It's an extreme machine though, because it produces 0 ppm water...but at a pretty dang slow rate. I mean it's too slow to actually sit there and wait. I'm going to have to figure out how long it takes to fill my 5 gallon bucket. My guess is about 20 minutes? But if I leave I'd have to set a timer so I don't forget to come back. For now though, I just let it go for a few minutes and then put in a little water to see how far I could drop the TDS just by topping off the evaporated water. It didn't do much. Dropped it from about 136 to 130. I'm starting to see the virtues of an auto-water change system. Especially if it was constantly putting in RO water. That way your water is both clean and stable. And I wouldn't have to wait 20 minutes to do a huge water change that drops the TDS really low. I'm probably going to end up doing small water changes...as in maybe half of the 5 gallon bucket. The good news is, once you do it, it has a pretty big impact. The thing that sucks is that if you really want to get the ammonia out, you have to suck out a lot of water. But then you end up dropping the TDS way too low with your RO water, so that's where the remineralizer comes in. I wish I could think of a better solution.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

KleineVampir said:


> Well well well....Look who got the RO system running! It's an extreme machine though, because it produces 0 ppm water...but at a pretty dang slow rate. I mean it's too slow to actually sit there and wait. I'm going to have to figure out how long it takes to fill my 5 gallon bucket. My guess is about 20 minutes? But if I leave I'd have to set a timer so I don't forget to come back. For now though, I just let it go for a few minutes and then put in a little water to see how far I could drop the TDS just by topping off the evaporated water. It didn't do much. Dropped it from about 136 to 130. I'm starting to see the virtues of an auto-water change system. Especially if it was constantly putting in RO water. That way your water is both clean and stable. And I wouldn't have to wait 20 minutes to do a huge water change that drops the TDS really low. I'm probably going to end up doing small water changes...as in maybe half of the 5 gallon bucket. The good news is, once you do it, it has a pretty big impact. The thing that sucks is that if you really want to get the ammonia out, you have to suck out a lot of water. But then you end up dropping the TDS way too low with your RO water, so that's where the remineralizer comes in. I wish I could think of a better solution.


I don't understand why you have an ammonia problem? Is it from your tap water? 
If your water is evaporating and you are topping off with 0ppm RO water the TDS will stay exactly the same as the original.


A cycled tank (yours should be cycled by now, should not have any ammonia) unless you are adding it in large quantities(from your tap water?).
As for the RO system you definitely need a holding tank and one large enough that you could run your system for a day or two and then have enough RO water for your tank for weeks.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

Amano shrimp don't really get to be 3 inches. I have had mine for about 3 years and the biggest is maybe 2. But they will eat hair algae. You wont regret them! Ghost shrimp are amazing scavengers and super underrated. Also, they are super cheap as well. I got 12 today for $3. They are prolific and the babies are a good natural food source. I have cherries, amanos and ghosts all in my 75 planted and they are great "housekeepers"

Bump: Amano shrimp don't really get to be 3 inches. I have had mine for about 3 years and the biggest is maybe 2. But they will eat hair algae. You wont regret them! Ghost shrimp are amazing scavengers and super underrated. Also, they are super cheap as well. I got 12 today for $3. They are prolific and the babies are a good natural food source. I have cherries, amanos and ghosts all in my 75 planted and they are great "housekeepers"


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I don't understand why you have an ammonia problem? Is it from your tap water?
> If your water is evaporating and you are topping off with 0ppm RO water the TDS will stay exactly the same as the original.
> 
> 
> ...


Uh....well, I don't really have an ammonia problem per se, and tap water does not contain ammonia. Besides, I don't think I'll be adding anymore tap water now that I've got my RO machine.

As for the idea of having a big holding tank, yeah I guess that would work. I think one of my 5 gallon buckets will do for now though.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

FranklyFish said:


> Amano shrimp don't really get to be 3 inches. I have had mine for about 3 years and the biggest is maybe 2. But they will eat hair algae. You wont regret them! Ghost shrimp are amazing scavengers and super underrated. Also, they are super cheap as well. I got 12 today for $3. They are prolific and the babies are a good natural food source. I have cherries, amanos and ghosts all in my 75 planted and they are great "housekeepers"


Yeah they're probably 3 inches if you count their antennae!

I don't think I'm gonna be getting too excited about ghost shrimp though! I don't need them for a food source, though I guess they could feed the snails when they die! Anyways that tank isn't big enough to keep everything. Once the Amanos are in that's gonna be quite enough!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

I do not use ghost shrimp as a food source either. Its just that a few of the tiny shrimplets inevitably will be picked off by my tetras. I keep them to keep the tank clean. They do a great job at cleaning up all the fish food that the fish miss. I also think they look really cool. I definitely prefer amano shrimp though. But they are more expensive and cant reproduce in a freshwater aquarium. But as far as algae goes, amanos win hands down.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Yeah, if they would ever ship. Of course it had to get really cold when I ordered them. The hair algae is getting pretty bad but I'm hesitant to reach in there and start cutting it off of the java moss because it will kind of mess it up. It's totally tangled in there with the moss, so doing a huge surgery is the only way without the amanos. Anyways, it will be a good experiment to see how much hair algae amanos actually eat, and also to see how much the hair algae will grow. It doesn't show any signs of stopping. I think it would take over practically the entire tank if I left it long enough. Nasty stuff. If anybody has any other ways to deal with it, let it be heard! I was thinking maybe if I just turned my lights off for a day, it would die. But I dunno.

The babies are growing up. I would almost consider them juvenile at this point!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

It will definitely take over the whole tank if it has a chance. I found that amanos really just keep it in check when you don't have a lot but if there is a ton then it might grow faster than they can eat. I found the best way is to use a tooth brush and twirl it like spaghetti on a fork. It usually doesnt uproot the plants and comes out easy if there isnt too much of it.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

That would probably work in most situations but like I said it is tangled with the java moss. When I pull it, the whole moss clump comes up with it. But I dunno, maybe the toothbrush thing would work. Because it pulls it into the center rather than straight up? I dunno.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Man, I should have my amanos but the geniuses at the USPS thought they knew best for the amanos. They might be right that it's too cold for them but I think it's arguably better to just deliver them even if it's a bit cold....to a point. Obviously if they're going to keep them in the cold truck for 5 hours then it probably wouldn't work. Kinda sucks that they can't go out of their way to deliver my shrimp first just to get the live animals out of the way. Anyways, it's frustrating and I might have to actually go to the post office tomorrow to pick them up. Another day in the bag is not really great but if they're at room temperature I guess it's semi decent.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok I got the amanos and they all got here alive. We had to go to the post office to get them, but hey...it's all over now and we got them. They seem pretty energetic and aggressive when it comes to eating. I fed them pellets, much less than I was, but hopefully they get back to eating that hair algae pretty soon. The worms are bad but I think it's because they're dying because I'm feeding less now. I'm not feeding very much at all anymore. 2 pellets for snails, 2 pellets for the shrimp; though they both eat both as always. Heck I could probably feed even less. But I was going way overboard before. Every time I get something new I get nervous that they don't have enough and I start feeding more. Also I wanted the snails to stop eating the java fern. But they might not even be the problem, so...I'm just gonna feed less and try to get the worm population down.


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

You could probably go a week without feeding if all you have is snails and shrimp. I think amanos wont eat too much hair algae unless its the only thing to eat in the tank.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

FranklyFish said:


> You could probably go a week without feeding if all you have is snails and shrimp. I think amanos wont eat too much hair algae unless its the only thing to eat in the tank.


Sheesh. Maybe I should! It might help clean out the tank and all the worms. I'd worry a bit, though, since shrimp do need some protein. Amanos can live entirely on algae from what I've heard, but the dwarf shrimp still need protein. I could reduce the amount I feed and just keep an eye on how they're doing.

Upon further thought, I wonder if anybody reckons the shrimp could live off the protein of the dying worms for a while. Then I really could get away without feeding for a week!


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## FranklyFish (Jan 4, 2019)

They will. They will eat anything!

Bump: They will. They will eat anything!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I've been thinking about it. To feed or not to feed... It's a tough decision but I'm choosing to not feed. I think it's high time that tank has a bit of a cleanse. It's both worm and algae infested. Besides it's an experiment to see how they do without food.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok I cheated just a teeny tiny bit. One snail pellet yesterday which was Wednesday. The snails just did not look happy at all. The shrimp seemed ok but those are some big snails, and not feeding them could definitely be a bad idea. Tomorrow I'm gonna start feeding again, but at about 25% of what I was doing before. The Ama-No contraption should finally work since the shrimp will be so hungry for those pellets I put in there. Then I'll feed the snails after that.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

The babies are growing up! They are definitely bloody mary babies.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well I just looked in the tank, and there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that one of the CRS is dying. The good news is that there are more baby shrimp! Ha, can you believe it? By new I mean new...Extremely tiny and clear little babies! Kind of exciting when you have 2 different species of shrimp in a tank. You never know what kind of babies they are! Not for a while anyways.

Edit: I put in some paraguard just as a measure against potential diseases/bacterial infections going on in the tank. Also I put a huge indian almond leaf in.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

It occurs to me that a certain contraption could be useful as a selective feeder for shrimp. I imagine it would have a square base, with pegs rising from it to prevent the big snails from accessing the middle of the square. I had that idea before and thought I'd try to be a semi-normal person with the selective feeder they sell online. But honestly, it's not that great. It's almost impossible to get the pellets into it, unfortunately. But with that wacky invention I described, it would be easy to just drop a pellet in. So long as your pellet dropped onto the square base of it, it'd work. That said it's easier to make it work for big snails but, but for little snails you'd need a lot more pegs and I dunno if it'd be feasible at that point. Does anybody know of such a device?


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Wow you guys would not believe what I just pulled out of my tank! I kept pulling on the mass of hair algae that's been growing on top of my java moss, and wow...I just kept pulling and cutting and pulling and cutting, and one time I got that thing to be like over 2 feet! Heck if I could process it, I could probably live off that algae! Ok not quite, but man it was a lot!

Another thing, in light of this event, I think it's safe to say that 5 or 6 amanos is not enough to control this kind of hair algae. Should I just buy a butt-ton of amanos? I mean there is a TON of algae in that tank. I can't imagine they would ever starve, and with enough, they might have a shot of keeping the algae at bay.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Oh and one more thing I just noticed, or should I say two more things: There are now 2 big old nasty mystery snail egg sacs on the back wall of the aquarium. They're kinda gross to be honest. But this is quite the ongoing experiment here...lots going on in that tank. I know they're supposed to be humid, and since there is a top on the tank it is pretty humid in there. I mean there is water dripping off the bottom of the lid all the time. So I think it's best to just leave them. Besides it's not like I'm dying for more snails anyways.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> Another thing, in light of this event, I think it's safe to say that 5 or 6 amanos is not enough to control this kind of hair algae. Should I just buy a butt-ton of amanos? I mean there is a TON of algae in that tank. I can't imagine they would ever starve, and with enough, they might have a shot of keeping the algae at bay.


I think it's probably a better idea to try to identify the source of the algae (e.g., too much light, not enough ferts, etc.) and deal with that, rather than try and just throw more shrimp in there. Just my two cents, though. :smile2:


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

tredford said:


> I think it's probably a better idea to try to identify the source of the algae (e.g., too much light, not enough ferts, etc.) and deal with that, rather than try and just throw more shrimp in there. Just my two cents, though. :smile2:


So you're asserting that the same things that make plants grow, do not always make algae grow? Cuz honestly I'm skeptical about that. That said it's probably time to turn the lights down from 12 hours a day.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

KleineVampir said:


> So you're asserting that the same things that make plants grow, do not always make algae grow? Cuz honestly I'm skeptical about that. That said it's probably time to turn the lights down from 12 hours a day.



It may be worth giving a read of a few of the other journals. I don't think anyone runs their lights 12 hours a day, and algae are much better at adapting to imbalanced nutrient levels than plants are. Increasing plant growth will reduce the availability of nutrients for algae to grow.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

tredford said:


> It may be worth giving a read of a few of the other journals. I don't think anyone runs their lights 12 hours a day, and algae are much better at adapting to imbalanced nutrient levels than plants are. Increasing plant growth will reduce the availability of nutrients for algae to grow.


All this stuff would be fine to do if I was just keeping fish. What makes it hard is that I'm breeding shrimp in there and I'm paranoid about putting anything new in the water. Besides the shrimp do eat algae. Not every kind of it that's in the tank, but they do eat it.

It's like I've been learning 2 things, and they don't go that well together. How to breed shrimp, and how to keep a nice planted tank without too much algae. And the evolution of this tank has put me in a somewhat difficult position. It would probably better to just have hardy inhabitants like fish and then you could just do whatever you want with the tank and the fish couldn't care less. Besides fish eat worms. The amount of skill and knowledge required to both have an amazing planted tank and breed shrimp in that same tank is pretty considerable. Probably I would have to master the idea of a planted tank first, then add shrimp in when all the dust has finally settled.

At this point, though, I plan on just playing it safe and letting the algae grow. It's better to have algae and be breeding shrimp. So this tank is more of an exercise in learning how to breed shrimp. I guess that means that my next tank will just be a tank with fish. That tank will be the pretty planted tank.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Ok so it turns out there are actually 3 snail egg sacs in the tank. One is on the front but I couldn't see it because of the rather thick black rim. That said the snails probably like something opaque to lay their eggs on. They seem to know how to keep them hard to see, interestingly. Though I gotta say, I don't think they're doing too well because the two in back, I noticed, are looking exactly the same as they did a couple days ago. Maybe that's normal maybe it isn't...they might need more humidity than what's in the top of the tank. Seems surprising that would be the case since there are quite literally water droplets on the inside of the tank above the water line. But those droplets might just be formed over a huge period of time and never evaporate. Maybe that isn't the same as actually being really humid. I'll see what happens if I don't move them, and if they don't hatch I might try grabbing them and putting them in a container with wet paper towels, which is what you're supposed to do if you really wanna breed them.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well I turned my heater up a degree from 73 to 74. That should help the humidity a bit. I dunno though, can't say I'm too optimistic about these things hatching. They still look the same as they did maybe 4 days ago. I noticed them about 8 days ago, which according to somebody on youtube who was actively breeding these things said that they hatch in about 8 days, though it does vary. I kinda wish they'd hatch! After seeing them on video I thought it was pretty cool. And if I can sell them, that's great! I mean heck they're a lot easier to catch than the darn shrimp! I'm honestly thinking about just breeding the mystery snails instead of the shrimp! Or I could just keep the shrimp colony for fun, or to see how long I can get the colony to sustain itself.

Edit: Breaking news: It could easily take longer than 8 days to hatch. They say it could take 4 weeks, but generally it's about 8-12.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Yesterday I put some nerite snails in there, 5 to be exact. I gotta say, I'm pretty happy with the results already! They really take the algae off the sides of the glass, which is what I need. The amanos...I could take 'em or leave 'em, but the nerites really do something. Also fun to see where they've been eating in the tank.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Seems like I should give a summary of the inhabitants of my tank at this point in time. There are now (roughly) 6 amanos, 5 nerites, 7 mystery snails (with 3 clutches of eggs), 30+ bloody marys (one berried), 10 or less CRS. The Java fern is not doing well, may even be dead. The Java moss is huge though. The light is now down to 8 hours. Temp is set to 74 but dips to 73. Hair algae still growing on top of the java moss. Not a lot of surface disturbance as a direct result! Dwarf hair grass doing well but spreading wide instead of tall like I'd prefer.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Slight correction, there are more like 10-12 mystery snails in there, not 7.

Anyways I was thinking of "hatching" a plan to get a saltwater tank. I'm thinking if I have one fresh water tank and one marine tank, there are certain low-order breeding species that I could breed. But apparently nerites are so picky that they need both brackish and saltwater..but I'd be inclined to try just saltwater and see if they can breed in that. What can I say? I really respect what nerites do! They do a useful job, and they do it well! I just wish I could breed them!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

And I just put in 10 more nerites I got at the old LFS. I loved them so much I went back for more! I have really bad algae problems. Let's see what 15 nerites can do for me!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Yesterday I saw another mystery snail egg clutch, and today I decided to incubate it. It's just a little plastic container with a wet paper towel in it. I'm floating it on top of the water to keep the temperature reasonable. Otherwise the basement would be too cold. I don't think the clutches are making it. It's humid in there but apparently it doesn't have the right kind of humidity needed. I'm guessing it has to be a very even and constant humidity.

Also I'll post pictures in a while. I just want the nerites to eat more of the algae off. The tank is already looking better and it's only been a couple days. When the tank looks semi-presentable I'll show a picture of it.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well mystery snails have already hatched a day or two ago. I wasn't totally sure since they looked like pest snails but at this point I am sure that I have baby mystery snails. Not sure how many there are but I'd have to say at least 30. I'll have to try and sell them locally.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I measured the ammonia levels and boy are they low! Probably only trace amounts of it in the tank. Looks like if you have enough plants, you can pretty much eliminate ammonia as a problem, which is great. The tank looks significantly better now with the nerites having eaten a lot of the algae off the glass. They do deposit small white eggs at a low but constant rate, so they aren't exactly miracle workers, but still good. I'd take a picture of it, but I really want to see if the nerites get hungry after eating all the algae off the grass, and start eating the hair algae. I'll take it out manually if I have to but I might not have to, so I'm not going to bother until I know the nerites aren't eating it. Heck they might need it for food at the rate they're getting through the algae.

I guess I can't pass summary judgement on nerites until they either eat or don't eat the hair algae. If they eat the hair algae, they're amazing and definitely better than algae scrapers. At least if you have hair algae problems. If they don't, algae scrapers might be about as good.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Pretty soon a 40-gallon breeder tank should come into my possession thanks to a very nice friend! Does anybody have any ideas on what I should do with it? I thought about making a brackish tank to breed nerites in and maybe amanos. Could be anything really.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

KleineVampir said:


> Pretty soon a 40-gallon breeder tank should come into my possession thanks to a very nice friend! Does anybody have any ideas on what I should do with it? I thought about making a brackish tank to breed nerites in and maybe amanos. Could be anything really.



Breeding Amanos is more involved than just setting up a brackish water tank, if you want to succeed.


There's this thread about one TPTF forum member's experience..


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...rates/1155914-breeding-amano-shimp-trial.html


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Breeding Amanos is more involved than just setting up a brackish water tank, if you want to succeed.
> 
> 
> There's this thread about one TPTF forum member's experience..
> ...


Yeah you're right, I shouldn't be so silly as to think that I can just set up a brackish tank and straight up breed amanos in it without doing anything else. It looks like I shouldn't think of the 40 gallon as being anything for amanos, because apparently all they need is a very small "tank" or container, even, with salt water in it. So they mostly live in fresh water, but the babies need salt water.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Alright guys, I added some new pictures and sorted them to show newest first, as it should be!

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jNrnRjMLjqJsTzWS9


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

I added another mineral stone after noticing some of the snails shells looked like they were eroding. The TDS has been awfully low. Hopefully the new stone doesn't do more harm than good.

Also if you look at the pictures, the crazy thing is that you see how covered in algae the mystery snails were, and then how white they get later! Yes later, not before! Apparently nerites clean up the mystery snails pretty nicely!


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Now I'm thinking the 40 gallon will be a brackish nerite snail breeding tank. All it would really need is a light and a heater, probably.


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## tredford (Jun 29, 2018)

Thanks for the updated pics. That is a serious moss/algae ball you have growing there, haha. The hairgrass and java fern both look like they are doing pretty well.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

tredford said:


> Thanks for the updated pics. That is a serious moss/algae ball you have growing there, haha. The hairgrass and java fern both look like they are doing pretty well.


Yeah the moss and the grass are doing well but not really the java fern. Hopefully less algae and more minerals from the second mineral stone will get it going again.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

Well today I actually got the 40 gallon breeder. So now the question is, what to do with it? There are lots of possibilities with a tank that big, and I have an RO machine. I guess I should take that as a sign that I should try salt water. That thing isn't getting a lot of use because I'm not drinking out of it and all I do is pour some of it into the old 20 g to keep it full of water. The ammonia is already low, I'm not gonna change it if I don't have to.

I think there are two things that I could do. A saltwater aquarium with clownfish and fire shrimp aka blood shrimp...that would be something new and different. And it would look good. Or I could just try to breed nerites in brackish water with the lights on all the time. I guess nerites are the cheap way to go and also kind of an introduction to salt water. But that tank is never gonna look good.

If anybody here knows anything about salt water tanks, by all means give me an idea of what I'd be getting myself into. But I guess this is the planted tank, may be the wrong place to talk about that. Or if anybody thinks the nerite snail tank is actually a good idea, ha.


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## KleineVampir (Aug 29, 2017)

So...what I've done...is move to another forum because they specialize in saltwater tanks and this one does not! The 40g is now here: https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/first-saltwater-tank-40-breeder.584895/

I'll still be on here too but I expect this to move pretty slowly. That tank is not going to be changing much anytime soon. The mystery snails and shrimp constantly breed and I'll try to sell some of them at various points. I might post when I sell something. The only thing the tank needs is to be fed monday wednesday and friday, and the hair algae needs to be manually removed since I haven't been able to defeat it any other way.


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