# FASCINATING egg development:) Update 3/3 Post #79!!!!



## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

UPDATE : This first series of photos shows the death of an egg....so ignore my excitement. However, read on through as there is more


So I lost a berried CRS two days ago and despite having ZERO luck hatching eggs artificially in the past I decided to try a new method brought to my attention by a friend. At any rate, I've been photographing them every day so I can track development or if I lose any. I took a photo of the egg closest to the tank wall this afternoon before I went to the gym. Here is that photo. There is another egg right behind this one that is somewhat visible.










And this is the same egg after I returned from the gym 4 hours later. 










It has completely split now and starting to unfurl which is just the coolest friggin thing ever to me. Maybe folks have seen this before but I haven't. These were due to hatch anywhere between tomorrow and next Thursday (28 days to 34 which has been average on my CRS fems). 

Just wanted to share and will continue to document anything I can. :icon_smil


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Wow. That's very cool.


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## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

Very cool!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Eyes appeared in the eggs about 2 days before the female died. She stressed herself to death IMO. I notice once the eggs develop eyes the females get very still and don't fan as often so I wonder if the eggs begin to somewhat move on their own. And right before hatching the eggs look like they've doubled in size and if they all split like this that would explain why. I'm so tickled I can't stand it. I truely hope they hatch as this was one of my favorite CRS I had, beautiful red legged nice quality girl. Seeing this split happen though I'm hoping this little fella will hatch soon. This is the only egg out of 20+ so far I notice doing this. The others have eyes, just haven't split like this.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Hope our plan works, Jaime! It looks good so far!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Very awesome!!! Astute photography. I wish you the most luck with this . 

Hopefully we keep seeing updates here! 

P.S. do you feel like a mad scientist?


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## Kinection (Dec 1, 2012)

Nice! You saved a life there.


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## l8nite (Aug 29, 2012)

Sweet!


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Nice pic! Never thought you can lay them on a sponge filter like that.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

sayurasem said:


> Nice pic! Never thought you can lay them on a sponge filter like that.


Can't take credit for it, Soothing Shrimp sent me a video a few weeks back in Japanese. We couldn't understand it but could at least see what the guy was doing. Theoretically it makes sense but I won't hold my breath because my 'hatching' plans haven't worked in the past.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> Very awesome!!! Astute photography. I wish you the most luck with this .
> 
> Hopefully we keep seeing updates here!
> 
> P.S. do you feel like a mad scientist?



I don't know if it's so much as mad scientist as it is 'desperate shrimp keeper'. LOL! If I could just find SOMETHING that would work I would feel better about it. I've done the fancy hatching nets, simple nets, moss with airstone under it and none have worked...fingers crossed!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

You'll get it


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Ravengate and I brainstorm back and forth a lot. We tend to build off each others ideas.

It should make sense because the fanning of the eggs runs water over them to deliver oxygen and hold off fungus.

A sterile sponge filter in a sterile tank draws the water over the eggs like "mom" and should do the same thing.

If it works like we hope it does, it should provide a way for hobbyests to save clutches of expensive shrimp when mom passes away berried. Jaime had the opportunity to put this into effect, so I- along with everyone else- am waiting anxiously to find out what happens and congratulate her if it works!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

OMGAAAHHHH! More development in a little over the last two hours! The back 'half' is lengthening.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

As far as I know, this is the first time anyone has documented this.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

No pressure! LOL! This is just with an Iphone and an Olloclip...not the best setup but doable. I have better light when the sun is out as the light floods the room but heck as long as the egg stays put and doesn't wiggle off the sponge this should be a great 'step by step' type photo sequence. WOOOOTT!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

HOLY COW. You have to stay there and take a photo every five minutes. That is INSANE. You can make a YouTube montage afterwards and become famous.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I tried to setup my video camera but don't have a macro setting on it. DANGIT!


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## bud29 (Sep 30, 2012)

whoaaaa.....that's cool


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Here is Eggy this morning...now I'm a little concerned since the color has become so orange...because I would normally take this as a bad sign. Then again it may be because it's just so different from the other eggs which are still red (eyes visible in all). But I hope this little sucker is still viable. There is some strange stuff going on on top of the egg...almost like little legs starting to poke out...doesn't look like any fungus on it but something odd is going on with that back half. I'm going to try to move some of the other eggs to that side of the sponge where I can photograph them as well. It may all be useless in the end but then again if something bad goes down with the eggs, I'd like to document that as well so when folks go through the same thing they may be able to tell the difference in viable eggs and lost ones.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Well first off it is upside down. And second off I would think the poor thing is dead :/ the colors don't look healthy. However... If the colors are just a phase (I really hope) then those look like little appendages hanging off it. 

Can you see any movement?


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## CPDzeke (Jan 4, 2013)

I'm doing this too, only with a filter bag under the outflow of my HOB. RIP Ms. Sakura.


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## kimboden (Feb 22, 2013)

*Re: FASCINATING egg development*

Looks like legs to me! Great posts.

Sent from my MB865 using Tapatalk 2


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> Well first off it is upside down. And second off I would think the poor thing is dead :/ the colors don't look healthy. However... If the colors are just a phase (I really hope) then those look like little appendages hanging off it.
> 
> Can you see any movement?



Can't see movement because they are constantly moving due to the sponge filter. The only reason I hesitate about it being dead (Which is my thought too) is the orange color began developing when the initial split developed. So it looks like the color change is part of the cellular development. But I just don't know. I may turn off the sponge filter here in a little bit and see if I see movement from it. Not even sure if it CAN move though.
ETA: Turned the filter off, no movement. Went to move the egg and it literally fell apart and turned to powder. RIP Eggy.

Going to move other eggs to the front this afternoon for further documentation.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Ug. I was so sure, too. Well, let's try the others until there is no hope left...


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Yeah. I was pretty sure the orange color sparked death. Still very neat. 

Sorry Jamie


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Still got 20+ eggs to watch so one egg down isn't horrible...just hope that's the only death.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*



ravensgate said:


> Still got 20+ eggs to watch so one egg down isn't horrible...just hope that's the only death.


Well these are CRS... They have a high mortality rate. So hopefully you're right.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Well, that's after they hatch.  At this point I just want them TO hatch so I can know if this system will work in the future.  I just meant hope it's the only egg death.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Gotcha . I do too


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

The idea is fantastic, but many breeders use egg tumblers. I believe its to equalize water movement around the egg. Maybe the area of contact with the sponge is the area of staleness. Perhaps a more tumbleresque design would work better?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Is there any reason I couldn't put the eggs within the airspout (for lack of a better term) on top of the sponge filter? Because the spout sticks out of the water so it's not like they'd float away. Of course, might be a rude awakening when they hatch...of course IF they hatch. Cause if someone thinks that's a good idea I can move a cluster of eggs to that spout. Had another egg turned orange I had to remove


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

I'd say stick an egg there it you think it might be worth it.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> Is there any reason I couldn't put the eggs within the airspout (for lack of a better term) on top of the sponge filter? Because the spout sticks out of the water so it's not like they'd float away. Of course, might be a rude awakening when they hatch...of course IF they hatch. Cause if someone thinks that's a good idea I can move a cluster of eggs to that spout. Had another egg turned orange I had to remove


I would be concerned about the eggs sticking to the side of the plastic because the bubbles may push it out of the water and stick it to the side.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Well then I'll just leave them as they are. I'm sure this won't be my last opportunity to try all the different methods. Unfortunately.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> Well then I'll just leave them as they are. I'm sure this won't be my last opportunity to try all the different methods. Unfortunately.


Yeah I made an egg tumbler....but the netting on the bottom was too big and snails and other shrimp were able to suck out the eggs from the other side :\


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

I just noticed aren't sponge filter is the dirtiest place in the tank? So maybe the eggs are trapped by all kind of stuff in the tank.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

sayurasem said:


> I just noticed aren't sponge filter is the dirtiest place in the tank? So maybe the eggs are trapped by all kind of stuff in the tank.



This is a sterile tank, NOTHING is in it, the sponge is a 'virgin' sponge and has never been used and the water is straight remineralized RO water. So to answer your question, in this situation no


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

On a side note, just like Pasture's experiments way back when, bacteria and life is everywhere. So the tank technically isn't sterile. Hence the fungus that grew on that poor eggie :/.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

True, true...but it never looked like fungus (not that I'm used to seeing). The egg started changing shape before I saw anything on the outer side happening. Doesn't mean it wasn't fungus, just worth noting


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## jshoker (Jun 27, 2010)

Please keep us updated...we're rooting for Eggy!!!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Ah true. Fungus wasn't the right word. It looked like some type of organism that feeds off dead things, I doubt it was appendages of any sort ;(


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

i didnt read through the whole thread but this "splitting" is not normal and i think the egg/shrimp is dead. 
the egg stays the same size the whole time.

in the coming weeks i will be photographing CRS eggs under a microscope as they are developing, ive done this before last semester without photo-documentation, just observing. this time i will photograph and take videos for everyone to enjoy, you can see many details such as individual pigments (red pigments and white pigments in the CRS), legs, tail, organs, and cell-like structures inside the egg. you can even see its heart beating.

head up for an exciting thread coming soon!


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Can't wait!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

HiepSTA said:


> i didnt read through the whole thread but this "splitting" is not normal and i think the egg/shrimp is dead.
> the egg stays the same size the whole time.


Yeppers, and that's another reason I wanted to photograph it. Either it was going to go to the good side or to the bad side and it seems once the split develops that signifies the death of the egg. But the interesting thing is, as they die I try to separate them out and remove them. Well, they have tails and legs and antennae, just the front half is still 'egg shaped' so I'm wondering if it's the outer 'shell' of the egg (for lack of a better word) that is dying. I'm losing them left and right now but only the eggs that were in clusters I couldn't separate. So fungus or microorganism or whatever it is, seems to attack all eggs in the cluster (like a fungus but doesn't appear to be fungus). In hindsight I possibly could have been better off if I would have separated them into individuals but it's more than slightly difficult without damaging the egg...at least for me it is.



HiepSTA said:


> in the coming weeks i will be photographing CRS eggs under a microscope as they are developing, ive done this before last semester without photo-documentation, just observing. this time i will photograph and take videos for everyone to enjoy, you can see many details such as individual pigments (red pigments and white pigments in the CRS), legs, tail, organs, and cell-like structures inside the egg. you can even see its heart beating.
> 
> head up for an exciting thread coming soon!


Would love to see this and also know how you are getting them to hatch in the first place


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

For what it is worth, I think you did the most scientific thing by keeping the eggs on the sponge. If you moved them, you would have had an incomplete experiment.

It is only through trial that we learn. Failures and successes all add to the knowledge of shrimpers.

I applaud you in trying something new!


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

my prediction is that the baby was trying to hatch out of the egg and was unsucessful in coming out of the egg casing and died. when the egg is attached to the mom, she shakes the eggs and help them escape from the egg. 

I found that the hardest stage to keep the egg "alive" is before you can see the eyes, the egg goes bad very easily, once you get in the last 1/3rd of the eggs development, its smooth sailing, once you can see the eyes, its pretty easy to keep it alive, I have my eggs in sterile test tubes with 9/10 DI water, and 1/10 cycled tank water. no water movement, I occasionally come into the lab and swirl the water around and squirt some bubbles into the water with a pipette. all the eggs are still alive, and the egg i used last semester hatched sucessfully using this method


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Fascinating! Thank you for sharing that test tube method. How many eggs have you hatched in this way?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

OMG Hiepsta where were you days ago!?!?!?! LOL! Thank you for sharing your method. And the theory makes sense. I'm going to 'keep on keeping on' with this method just for scientific pass or fail at this point. Eyes were showing before the fem died so I'm more hopeful than normal. I've got some eggs close enough for macro shots I'll try to get to keep documenting. 4 days left til latest of hatch date (34 days)...of course just based on my averages.

And if anything, I did start this thread based on succeed or fail...I feel it was still interesting in the egg splitting and developing. I need to adjust the first post to let folks know that the changes noted egg death. I'm here to learn, folks have helped me learn so much, and I feel good or bad maybe this thread might helps folks in the future


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

this is just a teaser, blurry picture taken with my phone camera, when i make the new thread it will be using the proper camera made for the microscope. the real pictures will show much more detail and resolution

also, one of the eggs in the lab just hatched within the past 2 or 3 hours... second picture is of a CRS less than 3 hours old!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

ARGGHHH!!!!!!!! I'm happy yet aggravated all at the same time. Hope I have the same great results


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

http://www.jehmco.com/html/egg_tumbler.html

what if you just used one of these. I should buy one to test it lol....and kill a berried shrimp lol

or a DIY 
http://www.sydneycichlid.com/egg-tumbler.htm


I have a custom one for hatching cichlids from back in the day that worked well.....lost it somewhere a while back lol...hatched cherries when I was a nub and 50% WC berried mamas.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

Hmm. $25 for one, and for how much Jamie loses in lost eggs  might be worth it. 

Neat links, Jon.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Oh crap, I came to post pics and missed these last two posts. Yeah, I will be buying/making an egg tumbler for future endeavors. Thank you for the links bananariot!

Ok, so I guess I've lost maybe, 5 or 6 of these, all turning orange and turning to powder. I DO have a photo of one where you can see the tail uncurled at the orange state...kinda sad. At any rate, so far the eggs are still holding. They were due to hatch this thursday had the stayed on her...I don't know if them being removed will prolong hatching or what. At any rate, here are the eggs I shall be observing the closest since they are within lens range.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development*

 poor eggies


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## abc (May 18, 2004)

HiepSTA said:


> this is just a teaser, blurry picture taken with my phone camera, when i make the new thread it will be using the proper camera made for the microscope. the real pictures will show much more detail and resolution
> 
> also, one of the eggs in the lab just hatched within the past 2 or 3 hours... second picture is of a CRS less than 3 hours old!


That's a terrific pic. thanks for sharing


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> poor eggies



i've still got at least 17 that are holding on...or at least NOT turning orange yet. Baby steps


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

UPDATE: So I have lost most of the eggs either to fungus (how I don't know) or the orange death. HOWEVER....I just took a photo of some of the ones that still kinda looked ok. Couldn't see this with the naked eye but saw it with the macro phone lens....can you see it?


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Um...see what? Are the tail and head free from the egg?


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development Updated 3-2*

Agreed. Not sure what we are looking for in particular. I see three eggs


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Um...see what? Are the tail and head free from the egg?


The tail is starting to. Got a better pic and the egg to the left actually has red eyes...like the Golden babies from the first batch. So right now, at this moment I'm thinking at least these two are viable...if they'll just hatch on out.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development Updated 3-2*

Hope they do


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Hopefully the sponge filter is working.

It would be interesting to see the percentage hatched with this vs the tumbler method. If it was a similar percentage, may as well save some dough.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Here is another photo... The tip of the tail is curve around the front of the head and it is separated (as I can see my gray sponge through the gap)


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

*FASCINATING egg development Updated 3-2*

That's so neat!!!!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Hopefully the sponge filter is working.
> 
> It would be interesting to see the percentage hatched with this vs the tumbler method. If it was a similar percentage, may as well save some dough.



There were two flaws with the idea. I should have separated each egg out as an individual...if the eggs were touching whether in a cluster or too close, water could not move around the entire egg and fungus/orange death took over then got to every egg it could touch.

The other flaw could be #1 the sponge itself...maybe too porous not porous enough and #2 Not a strong enough air pump powering it. In hindsight I think it might work if I had one of my bigger pumps on it running it full blast and if I had separated each egg out individually.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I have been ignoring these eggs out of sheer disgust in losing so many but I guess I'll be keeping an eagle eye on this one since I would *assume* (you know what that means...LOL) that he should hatch by tomorrow if the tail is uncurling. BUt I don't really see any movement from it so trying not to get my hopes up.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I wonder if too strong would cause newborns to be stuck to the sponge though?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

See I don't know...but I think the flow was too weak in this situation. Otherwise I don't think I would have had fungus forming around individual eggs.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Good point. What pump are you running?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

It's an Aquaculture pump...no idea of rate honestly. It's not crappy crappy but it's not great either.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

the eggs are supposed to turn orange, thats how they look right before they hatch, the one in my picture doesnt look orange because the cell phone's colors are washed out, and i had high intense light on the egg, making it appear clear, but if you were to look at the egg with your naked eye under normal lighting, it would look orange just like yours. CRS eggs go from brown to orange.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

also, based on my experiments, it looks like water circulation is not as important as we once thought, for the past TWO WEEKS, I kept my eggs in pretty much stagnant pure RO/DI water with a bit of tank water mixed in. all 3 sucessfully hatched and the shrimplets are still alive. I only occasionally went into the lab and swirled the water around and occasionally changed out with some fresh RO/DI water (50%)

is it possible that all this worrying about circulation and keeping the water oxxygenated, doing more harm than good? is it possible that this constant water current/bubble current causing difficulties for the shrimplet to get out of the egg shell/membrane?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

HiepSTA said:


> the eggs are supposed to turn orange, thats how they look right before they hatch, the one in my picture doesnt look orange because the cell phone's colors are washed out, and i had high intense light on the egg, making it appear clear, but if you were to look at the egg with your naked eye under normal lighting, it would look orange just like yours. CRS eggs go from brown to orange.


In this case as soon as the eggs turn orange the cellular walls start breaking down, the tail uncurls and the egg is dead...Turns to complete powder if anything touches it. This is solid opaque orange, just like my photos show. 

My CRS eggs have never been brown, they are always red. I had photos of a berried momma the day her babies were hatching and the eggs were never orange. I'll go grab the pic now.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

This is the pic of one of my berried mommas the day she was hatching. Her eggs are a slight orange but they are translucent...not that same as what I'm calling the 'orange death' which is solid, opaque, and sherbert colored and I have also noted with PFR eggs and Tibee eggs when trying to artificially hatch. I had just never seen the split before which is why I got excited in the beginning. Right now there are two eggs trying to hatch on the sponge, one is actually pushed somewhat into the sponge, the other is the one I posted.


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## HiepSTA (Aug 23, 2011)

you know how you shouldnt blow a fan into an infant baby's face because the baby could suffocate? the air current is too much for the baby to handle. same thing with the shrimp? this could be causing your high death rate on the sponge.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

HiepSTA said:


> you know how you shouldnt blow a fan into an infant baby's face because the baby could suffocate? the air current is too much for the baby to handle. same thing with the shrimp? this could be causing your high death rate on the sponge.



I've had it happen in all attempts though...hatching net, egg in moss with airstone below them and barely any movement...happened to all of them.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

But if I am faced with this again, believe me, I will be trying your method hiepsta and appreciate all of your posts and great photos


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

In the last photo I posted we saw the little tail on the egg....well the egg to the left of it with the red eyes? Welcome to the world baby. Now just LIVE.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

*happy dance* Oh yeah Oh yeah It's a shrimpie Oh yeah!

Now you may have to transfer it into the other tank for biofilm, etc.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow yay!!!!! Congrats! That's so exciting.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> Now you may have to transfer it into the other tank for biofilm, etc.



Anybody else have any thoughts on this? I would think there should be biofilm growing on the sponge, I have an IAL leaf waiting in the wings in another container of water growing biofilm that I will be putting in this evening. Or, I have leaves in the tank he will eventually go in that I can transfer over...that might actually be better. My thought process is to see if he can make it past the first 2 critical weeks in the tank he is in. He can get his strength up without being harassed by the shrimp in the other tank. The params of where he is and the params of his future home (if he makes it) are the same...just tested them.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

How long have you had this tank up?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

week and a half on the tank he's in. But biofilm starts growing within just a couple of days from my observation. I can put an IAL leaf in a cup of water and the next day it's already slimy...which is the biofilm setting in AFAIK. Same with the sides of the tank, I can already feel it on there. And of course, I have 9 million baby foods. LOL. But if folks think it would be better to go ahead and move him I may do that...but not for a few days at least...would like for him to be mobile before I contemplate any sudden change. And honestly...I'm just dang scared to do it. All this hoping and wishing for the last couple of weeks...whew.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

If he has biofilm there's no reason to move him AFAIK...


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I can also transfer some moss from his future home too. Go ahead and get him used to the natural bacteria in that tank in small doses anyway.


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

yay!! congrats so is he the lone survivor or still have more yet to hatch or die?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Merth said:


> yay!! congrats so is he the lone survivor or still have more yet to hatch or die?


I have 3 more left that haven't died yet. One is having weird stuff go on...the one that showed the tail yesterday...I see a strange thing at his head...not sure if it's a microorganism or the outer shell of the egg starting to give way. I'm keeping an eye on it just because I'd be flipping over the moon to catch a hatch in progress.

And today is day 38 on these from the time she berried to now..just for reference.


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

Jeez if they all make it thats 4 outta 20ish. 20% survival rate for 30+ days of anguish. Cant say it would be worth it to me. If these were high dollar shrimp maybe. Also the "experimenting" to find a viable method I do understand for future and potentially larger survival rates so keep at it so I never have to LOL!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Merth said:


> Jeez if they all make it thats 4 outta 20ish. 20% survival rate for 30+ days of anguish. Cant say it would be worth it to me. If these were high dollar shrimp maybe. Also the "experimenting" to find a viable method I do understand for future and potentially larger survival rates so keep at it so I never have to LOL!



OH she just died a week and a half ago...eyes were already showing in the eggs when she died, I wouldn't go through this for 30 days. LOL. She was high dollar to me...red legged beautiful quality CRS SS. The only red legged one I had. That's the reason I wanted to save them so much. 

If I have to go through this again I think I would do the sponge method and fix the flaws I see with it but I would also do the tumbler method on half of the batch to check yield rates. There may be nothing foolproof but if I can find something that gives me a decent yield I wouldn't stress out so much over the death of a berried momma.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

+1 I have some project shrimp that would be very hard to replace if the berries died.


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## abc (May 18, 2004)

wow! what a rescue story! glad some of the eggs made it! congrats


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Welcome Frik and Frak Baby #2 was just hatched. One egg not looking so good, another is tucked into the sponge and I can't see it well so these may be the only 2 out of the batch.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Yay!!!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

They're precious. Did anything different happen with them that it worked?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> They're precious. Did anything different happen with them that it worked?


They weren't stuck in clusters...they were individuals though somewhat close to other eggs they weren't 'attached' with the goo that holds them together in the momma 'belly'. Also, these were more towards the outer edge of the sponge...however they weren't always like that as I occasionally moved their position on the sponge. Main thing is they were separated out.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Hmm. Maybe that's the common bond between them. Hope it works with the last one.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Updated baby pics.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

im so glad some of them made it. keep up the good work


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Thank you Wicca! I'm hoping they both make it past the critical point. I always get nervous looking for them every day. Today they just happened to both be front and center. I've got a small bit of IAL leaf, moss, and alder cones in there with them. But for now they stay on the sponge. They've gotten two tiny doses of bioplus, one the day they were born and yesterday. By this weekend they should be able to eat actual baby food so I'm going to spot feed some Ebiken EI (roll it in little balls and place it near them).


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## Puddles (Jan 5, 2013)

This is awesome. So glad it worked! Hopefully they have red legs.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

PuddlesAqua said:


> This is awesome. So glad it worked! Hopefully they have red legs.



That is my hope! If they just live I'll be happy but it sure would be a bonus if they had red legs like momma.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Red eyes!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

sayurasem said:


> Red eyes!



Yeah, I've noticed my CRS and Golden babies often have red eyes for the first week then they begin to turn black. Though some of the Goldens hang on to the red eyes for a lot longer.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

How are the babes


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> How are the babes
> 
> 
> MABJ's iDevice used for this message



Heehhee...scroll up a few posts


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

ravensgate said:


> Heehhee...scroll up a few posts


They're SO cute. Lol. Without you they never would have achieved life! Sorry, it was on the pervious page. 


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Oh I figured you just missed the new pics Well, fingers and toes crossed they make it...I'll be so happy if they do.


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## shmeeg (Oct 23, 2011)

very cool rescue. it's always exciting to see something like this chronicled!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Looks as if the sponge idea we discussed worked after all.  Now to tweak it and expensive shrimp can have a percentage saved!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay, so I had 3 berried pumpkin fems kick the bucket in my tank. I removed the eggs and have them on a sterile sponge in a 2.5g tank. I honestly have no hope for them since they have been berried less than a week, but I figure I'll try this method for a month and see what happens.

When transferring about half the eggs fell to the substrate, while the other half are on the sponge filter at different levels. Some on top, some on the side. I guess I'll report back in a month (or less) to give an update.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Did you keep in clusters or separate?


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

simply amazing!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

MABJ said:


> Did you keep in clusters or separate?


Separated what I could, but unless there is some chemical that can separate the eggs from the "glue", it really is extremely tough to individualize.

So, yes- I have some clumps too. :confused1:


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Gotcha. I asked because Jamie's only hatched were the ones away from the clumps


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Yeah from what I'm deducing the material that keeps the eggs together while in the belly prevent movement of the water from going around the individual eggs and that's what I feel did these in. And if not for lack of water movement, just stagnant areas to the eggs. But it's all theory in my head


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I think your theory may be correct- and as said, I really suspect that because of the length of time plus organic matter around the eggs- they are all lost anyway.

The challenge I have is that I don't have utensils or a self supporting magnifying glass to do the fine work to separate each one individually. If I get encouraged enough by this, I may get some "finer" supplies for trying again in the future.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

An exacto knife and REALLY GOOD eyesight can do it...I have a whole set of exactos for sculpting I don't really use so they came in handy. I just got lazy and didn't separate those few clusters and also didn't think it through. Had I put more thought into it it would have made sense to get them as 'separate' as possible.


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## binbin9 (Jan 31, 2012)

Great read I'm glad there was some success!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Just looked at the eggs. It's interesting to note that overnight the eggs that landed on the substrate are fuzzed over, while the eggs on the sterile sponge filter are not.

Now, I still expect them to not make it due to me leaving clumps, but interesting that there really is an immediate effect from the water flowing through the sponge.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

It's amazing how quick the fuzz can take over...heck if you stared long enough you could probably watch it 'grow'.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

I know what you mean. On New Year's Eve I constantly see the fuzz all over trying to take control.:biggrin:


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

haha yeah it took over my angel eggs pretty fast. plain tap water and peroxide is great for keeping the fuzz away. and peroxide turns to water when in the light so all good.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

What ratio, wicca?


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## Merth (Sep 9, 2012)

20:1 I think is the accepted ratio


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks.


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## mosspearl (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow, what a fascinating thread! Congrats on the two babies, Ravensgate!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

All eggs are fuzzed, so will be dumping at the end of the week, BUT 1) the sponge air is diverted to two other tanks, so not a strong water suction, 2) organic debris left on [glue] and 2) I will DEFINITELY be using the 20:1 vinegar trick next time! So that alone is worth my posting the experiment this time!

Provided these are worked out, I really think this may be the best option for recovering eggs.

Using the same idea, someone sent me this video (THANK YOU!), and I think I may try this next time. The same theory, but I don't have to worry about dropping half the eggs off the filter. 

Also, if used inside the original tank, you wouldn't have to worry about change in water chemistry or temp flux. Fuzz? Maybe, but if the suction is good enough who knows? Plus, in theory, the eggs would fit inside a small jelly jar with the same set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p_nnF-bcE7c


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

As a side note I have a CPO carrying fungus covered eggs right now. So even IN the mommas belly, it's not even foolproof (crappy non fanning momma CPO).

I have one baby still in the tank, can't find the other but don't see a carcass either so not sure if he's hiding like the other one does or what. WIll be shifting them to the main CRS tank this weekend though if they (or one) is still alive. Fingers crossed!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

CPO don't care 'bout nothin'. Lol


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> CPO don't care 'bout nothin'. Lol


Rotten things. Wonder if she'll ever let go of them...might be a chilly water change soon to force a molt. She looks like a molded orange with those awful things hanging off her. Who'd a thunk it?


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

For the life of me I couldn't keep CPO alive. Everybody says they are bomb proof. LOL Guess I should hire myself to the feds for killing.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

I really dislike CPOs lol. I think I'm a shrimp and snail man. I like peaceful critters. I've never seen a peaceful CPO.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Welp, yesterday was the 2 week mark. For a full week I had only seen one baby so thought I'd lost the other (one has an extra red stripe, so the one I was seeing was the same one over and over). I moved the one baby over yesterday and decided to leave the hatchling tank running for a few days just in case. And just found baby number two so he's in the main CRS tank now. YAY!


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Congrats! Super happy you had a few 'test tubers' work out for ya


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Thank you MABJ! I'm super happy too. Of course IW as happy that just SOMETHING hatched out, the two week mark is a bonus. Oh, and that silly cray that was carrying fungus covered eggs finally dumped the fungus covered ones and now has about 20 babies on her. Crazy as I thought they were all goners.


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow... That is nuts. At least you'll get babies.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

MABJ said:


> Wow... That is nuts. At least you'll get babies.



I've had lots of babies, never any survivors with the CPOs. I've been tweaking the params though over the last few weeks in that tank to drop the GH and KH down to see if I can get a better outcome. We'll see


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## MABJ (Mar 30, 2012)

My bet is they're all eating each other lol.


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Um...guys? I had written off the eggs in the 2.5g tank with sterile sponge filter because of a poorly aerated sterile sponge filter, no moss, and bio contaminants on the eggs, fuzz on eggs because of bio contaminants....









Today I found a hatched baby! Is that crazy or what?!?









Don't know if there's other hatchlings or not yet...

Just went to take a pic and found another one! That's two so far! Is this wacky or what?









I honestly HONESTLY had just written these off but left it going for the "what the heck" factor.

Oh, and I know it's April 1st, but this is no April 1st joke! This is just plain amazing!

Jaime, our system is working!

Guys, if these babies can hatch from such a poor job as I did, with a little tweaking, this could really be effective!


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

HOLY CROW THAT'S AWESOME [email protected]! WOOT!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

What's more amazing is that I just found another one in there! That makes 3 now...


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Okay, now up to sighting 5 babies at once. 

Interesting to note that the babies in the pumpkin tank all pretty much started orangish, where as these babies are stark white. Have a sliver of veggie stick in there now for them to munch on. Still extremely skittish.


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## rowdaddy (Jan 20, 2012)

Soothing Shrimp said:


> View attachment 117202
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 117210


These look like photos of some Yeti-Shrimp. Lol



I am Rowdaddy. 
SC Aquaria

75 Community
20H Community
20L Convict "Bedroom" 
20L Growout
10gal RCS
1.5gal in progress
55 gal Paludarium/Vivarium coming soon


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL "Finding Shrimplets" Sounds like a tv show to me.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Congrats dude!


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## Soothing Shrimp (Nov 9, 2011)

Thanks. I wouldn't normally be so pumped about common shrimplets, but I wrote these off as lost!


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