# Eco-complete Q.. help plz



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think you should be fine. 1/2 bag is not that much, just be careful that you didn't make it deep enough to promote anaerobic spots?

I think the remaining Eco should be fine, but I'd probably rinse it really well first- the water in the bucket will probably go stagnant? I'd actually drain as much of the water as you can from the bucket, and still rinse the Eco again. I think the Eco liquid is OK as long as it's in airtight plastic, but I would worry about it once exposed to air (not even quite sure what's in it...)


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'd probably give the Eco in the bucket another rinse prior to adding it to the tank, but there's nothing wrong with adding a little at a time. I can't be sure, of course, but it seems that your staggering the addition is a good way to go about this. It's much less of a disruption to the biological filtration than if you did it all at once.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

No need to rinse eco It comes with pre colonized bacteria.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

eehh, so they say.  I got rid of that 'magic juice' ...but that's just me. Since it's been rinsed already, out of the pack, rinsing it again before use would probably be wise as a precaution against stuff growing in the water that hadn't been removed.


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2008)

Sorry but I'm gojna sound like newbie here... but can some one explain anaerobic spots?

I put about 1/2 to an inch deep..... how deep is too deeep that would cause anaerobic spots?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

You need to have it significantly deeper to have risk of anaerobic areas. Unless you have way more than one would normally use, at least with Eco Complete, you have nothing to worry about.

Anaerobic spots happen when the substrate is too deep or quite compacted, there's no oxygen down there and nasty bacteria form H2S or Hydrogen Sulphide, a noxious gas.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

^^^ What he said. If 1/2-1" is your total depth you should def. be OK.

PS over time your gravel will mix together with your Eco- if you don't want that look, it would be easier to take it out before you add the Eco? (If it doesn't bother you, then it doesn't matter- just whatever you would prefer)


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2008)

1/2 - 1 inch depth is what I added with eco, the total substrate depth is 2 - 2 1/2. once I'm done there should be no area deeper the 3 inch.

Thanks guys for all the help and info :icon_smil


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

Ahh, this post is just in time for the question that I have.

I have a 210g aquarium that I am starting to setup.

I will have malawi cichlids in the tank mixed with a couple of other types of fish (from a pre-existing tank) but i am looking to use a dark substrate and was thinking of using nothing but echo-complete substrate.

Are there disadvantages to this? should I mix it? I'm basically asking your opinion on what I should do.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Provided it is within your budget there's nothing at all wrong with using only Eco Complete; my 75 is 100% Eco. One reason some mix it with other substrates is that the ~$20 a bag can be quite a burden on a budget.


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

indiboi thank you for the small amount of information I needed. roud:


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Ok, I gotta ask you all this.... Why would you spend so much money on a planting substrate, that is full of beneficial bacteria and such, then take it home, drain off the water that is with the soil, then rinse with chlorinated tap water (that will ultimatly kill or wash out all the "good stuff"), then use it to "cap" substrate??

Get black sand or gravel next time. Waste of money. Capping does not help roots at all, especially since you just "deactivated" all the good beneftis of eco.

My advise next time. Drain your tank, take out the old substrate and replace in kind with the ECO. or if you "capping", get inert stuff thats a heck of a lot cheaper.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Throttle down guys. Everyone got their answers. Personally, I think it's worse to hijack someone's thread with an angry exchange of words than it is to post a second question re: the same topic.

Back on topic.....
I ditto everything indiboi said . I don't use magic juice, and my experience with EC has never yielded any anaerobic conditions - the stuff seems to "breath" pretty well.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Just to clarify for anyone else reading the thread- the advice Indiboi and I both gave in regards to washing the Eco before using it was referring to a portion that was going to be left in a bucket standing in still water for an indefinite number of days... The concern was mainly in regards to stagnant water exposed to open air, not necessarily the liquid the Eco is packaged in. (I did mention that as I'm unsure what is in the liquid, that too may be able to stagnate once out of the plastic bag and left open to air, but I was not at all sure on that point.) Better safe than sorry, IMO.

Also- Visseroth- African cichlid substrate often is not compatible with plant growth, but that does depend on which substrate you are using and planning on mixing with the Eco. It might be better for the plants to separate the substrates as much as possible, and use the Eco only where the plants will be, instead of mixing them together?


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

unirdna, Thank you. As I said I thought that my question applied a bit to the subject at hand and I thank you for "throttling" it down.

Now back to the subject at hand.

OK, so, that is not a bad idea. I never would have thought of that!

Here's another question and this completely applies to the subject at hand....

Is it better to buy this pre-treated (is that what it is?) eco-complete substrate stuff or would it be better to get something that is plain and untreated if you plan on pre-cycling the tank anyways.

I have been looking at drsfosterandsmith.com for substrate and it is all pretty expensive and I have a 24inch by 72inch surface to cover and planned on going with 3 inches of substrate as well.

Is it better to go a bit shallow on the substrate? Would it be a good idea to put something under the soil for the roots of the plants to bind to, to help keep cichlids from up rooting the plants?

Also, wouldn't under gravel heaters help avoid anaerobic spots by promoting water circulation in the substrate?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I personally have my doubts about the claim that any unrefrigerated bacteria will actually remain viable and be effective in helping cycle a tank- but I can't say I've ever thoroughly researched it, so I will just say that no matter what you will need to make sure that the tank has indeed cycled, and I don't think that Eco will get you there all on its own no matter what.

I also first started pricing out buying substrate online and by the time I added in shipping charges it ended up cheaper to pick some up myself at my LFS, but that was just my experience.

Cost was a huge factor for me since I wanted 3-4" of substrate in a 90gal tank- I ended up cutting my Eco with black colorquartz. 50lb bag was $22.23 plus tax, I went to 3M.com and located a local pool supply company that carries colorquartz and again picked it up myself. I'm mixing this 50lbs with 100lbs Eco. I would not recommend anything less than a 50/50 ratio if you do decide to cut it.

How shallow or deep you need your substrate will probably relate to what plants you want to keep. In my case the vast majority of my plants will be rooted plants (vals and swords) so I need a deep substrate. Stems do not always develop such extensive root systems, so you might be able to get away with about 2"?

There has been quite a bit of debate regarding substrate heating devices, and from the threads I've read, most people do not think they are really worth the $$? I plan on discouraging anaerobic spots by making sure my hardscape rests on the floor of the tank and that the rest of the substrate is 100% planted.


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

I can definately see your point. Personally (and logically) it doesn't make a ton of sense that good bacteria would survive for an extended period of time without oxygen and circulation. But I'm not a scientist, I don't really know either.

I really need to try to keep rooted plants with a cichlid aquarium. They just like to dig to much. That and I'll put something like a egg crate or what ever it is called under the substrate to help avoid floating plants and going swimming in this monster of a tank.

Now when you say hard scape you are referring to rocks and such?

What would you recommend for a dark substrate? I'd like to have 3 inches under the plants and the rest will have driftwood (non leaching) and some rocks.

Sorry for asking so many questions. I thought i was going to have to spend a fortune for EC so I could have 3" of substrate and now you guys got me thinking more! :eek5:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

If you're going with eartheaters or other diggers (I totally forgot that point) then I actually would give some strong consideration to potted plants. You could actually save a ton of $$ on substrate that way, you could get all inert stuff and just have enough to bury/hide the pots?

You could bury or hide the pots with rocks and driftwood (yep that's hardscape), and still plant your tank pretty heavily.

You could have tons of mosses and java ferns tied and growing on the hardscape for a very lush effect.

If you want to try the regular planted substrate method, Fluorite has several dark options now (black, black sand, and dark) plus there's Eco. You might try and give the plants time to get established/rooted before adding the cichlids and see if that helps?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I agree with everything that Laura Lee has said thus far.  ...with the exception of potted plants, in regards to that I really get a 'why bother with plants' feeling.

If I were to setup an aquarium larger than my 75 I would give very strong consideration to the calcined clay options like SMS, Turface, etc. They all have great cation exchange properties and function quite well as I understand for our purposes. I wasn't are of any of those options when I set my aquarium up, nor was I aware of the 3M product, which is also probably a great option.

I like the idea of the new black & dark flourites, hopefully once they've more readily available they won't carry such a ridiculous price premium at some of the LFSs that carry it.

If I wasn't able to get my Eco for $18 a bag at That Pet Place in person I'd probably have considered something else. It was expensive enough as it was.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Indi- I actually plan on trying Turface in my next tank. The reason I didn't suggest it was from what I've heard it stirs up pretty easily- digging cichlids could constantly keep the tank a cloudy mess? Just guesswork on my part though, since I haven't personally used it, to date.

I've acutally seen some lovely aquascapes using large potted mother swords, ect- cleverly disguised behind driftwood with java moss and java fern mats growing on them... It is a look that is very different from the look that most people shoot for, but I think it's a great compromise/solution for keeping plants with fish that like to dig.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I've never used any of those calcined clay options, just regular gravel, play sand, and Eco. I figure it's up to the owner to decide if an option is appropriate based on fish or not.  

I do really like the idea of having java ferns, anubias, mosses, all tied onto driftwood. A thin layer of course pool filter sand would be potentially ideal there, and cost effective for certain.


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

Well you guys have been a awesome source of information and I thank you guys for all the input. I think you've put my mind on a bit of overload trying to decide on what kind of substrate I want to use and how I want to place it (either that or being sick is keeping me from thinking clearly).

I am thinking that maybe what I might do is anchor my plants (tie them down) and use something like AS or EC for that side of the tank with some sort of a plant that will cover the substrate to help keep the cichlids from digging up that area.

Any recommendations for a plant that is low profile that will cover the substrate?

I'm not really wanting to use any pots for planting if I can avoid it but if it ends up becoming an issue where the fish just won't leave the plants alone I think it could be something I could implement later with new plants and what have you.

Oh the decisions! Very tough decisions!

But oh well, I'll figure it out in due time and then update you guys.
I still have a long ways to go. I have to get a 30 to 50g sump tank, order all the parts for the filtration system, lighting, put the stand in place, cut a hole in the wall, from the hole and then start implementing all this stuff!

PS. If I don't make a whole lot of sense in this post that would be because I sick and am not thinking very clearly. Might have something to do with the meds.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Alot will be trial and error. I look forward to seeing what you come up with! I understand being sick- sucks!

Just keep in mind when picking out substrate is that with digging fish it can get very problematic if your substrate is too easily stirred up. 

I once added a yoyo loach to my planted tank to try and address a snail population boom. It was a disaster. Water was so cloudy I couldn't see into the tank for weeks (yoyo was digging for the MTS buried in the Fluorite substrate). By the time I got fed up and removed the yoyo to let things settle down, the plants had been covered in silt and deprived of light so much from the muddy water that even my java fern was completely melted. I lost most of my plants.


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## jtmangels (Feb 27, 2008)

Visseroth said:


> ...but i am looking to use a dark substrate and was thinking of using nothing but echo-complete substrate.


Viss...I assume you are talking about the Eco-Complete Cichlid Substrate and not the planted product? IMVHO the cichlid substrate is great for buffering and your mbuna will love sifting through it but it is not very natural looking (salt and pepper is the best way I can describe it.) If that's the look you're after by all means go for it because the substrate itself is very nice. :thumbsup:


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

What is MTS and IMVHO?

But the look I am wanting to go for is a dark (black or almost black) substrate.

I have used the salt and pepper looking substrate. The only thing I don't like about it is that when the cichlids dig they have a tendency to mix up the EC and the Cichlid EC.

For buffering I am actually going to use crushed coral, so buffering won't be a problem. How ever it may be a better idea to use the cichlid EC to try to help raise the PH level as the PH of the water from the tap is 7.0.

I have thought about using the black sand. It is a very fine sand but if it mixes with the EC then it won't look all that bad. Maybe an idea might be to use 4 lbs of black to every 1 lbs of cichlid EC to make it much darker but still get the benefits of having the cichlid EC.

What do you guys think?

BTW, sorry for the long delay in the reply, very busy family life atm.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

I never rinsed Eco. I do drain the bag before I put it in my tanks though... Not that it makes any difference.

I am going to get 3 more bags of eco for the 75 gallon I am buying and do the same thing. The only time I would rinse it is if I saw any cloudiness in the bag.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

MTS = Malaysian Trumpet Snails
IMVHO = In My Very Humble Opinion 

:thumbsup:


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## jtmangels (Feb 27, 2008)

Visseroth said:


> For buffering I am actually going to use crushed coral, so buffering won't be a problem. How ever it may be a better idea to use the cichlid EC to try to help raise the PH level as the PH of the water from the tap is 7.0.
> 
> I have thought about using the black sand. It is a very fine sand but if it mixes with the EC then it won't look all that bad. Maybe an idea might be to use 4 lbs of black to every 1 lbs of cichlid EC to make it much darker but still get the benefits of having the cichlid EC.
> 
> What do you guys think?


Sounds like you have it covered Viss. The cichlid EC has crushed coral in it so it should be sufficient for your buffer. You can actually see the little pieces of coral, it's kind of cool. It should definitely deliver a .2 to .4 pH bump at minimum.

Good luck!


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

Well I'll keep this site bookmarked and when I get the big monster up and going I'll send you guys some pics.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Cool- I look forward to them! :smile:


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## Visseroth (Dec 2, 2005)

I don't really mean to re-live this forum but there are people here that were looking forward to seeing my new setup and here you go. I know it has been a while but it's been quite a bit of work and still work in the making..........

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/p...aded-46g-bow-210g-framed-wall.html#post587662


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