# El Natural Walstad Tank Set Up Concerns



## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

anyone?


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

1. As long as the dirt is stated as organic you should be fine. If it does not specifically say organic on the bag do not use. Some type of clay in the substrate is also helpful to hold nutrients until they are needed. Be carefull with your own personal topsoil unless you are 100% sure it has not been treated with pesticides which are extremely lethal to fish in minute amounts.

2. I believe walstad uses just a Powerhead to encourage circulation, but 3-4x tank volume turnover should be sufficient. As a note u stated South American and kribensis come from Africa. It really doesn't matter cause they can both adapt to parameters but just a note.

3. Depending on height of your tank you should be at about low/medium lighting. 

4. None of those plants are fast growing except the water Lilly and would not be great at biological filtration. If you plan on going walstad you will need some emergent plants or floaters. Water lettuce, salvinia, duckweed, your cover will determine if you can go emergent, dwarf umbrella palm, spathe. 
The ferns and anubias are usually not planted in the substrate, but tied to hard scape, rocks, manzinita. Their rhyzomes cannot be buried or they will rot so hard scape placement will determine planting. They CAN be buried in substrate as long as the rhizome is not buried.


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## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

I have plenty of dwarf lilies in my dirt tanks, and there is no problems with them sucking up the nutrients and starving the other plants.

Also, jeepguy is right about emergent growth and/or floaters, but fast growing stem plants would also help (anubias and java ferns are not stem plants, plus they are both slow growing) at least to begin with.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

jeepguy said:


> 1. As long as the dirt is stated as organic you should be fine. If it does not specifically say organic on the bag do not use. Some type of clay in the substrate is also helpful to hold nutrients until they are needed. Be carefull with your own personal topsoil unless you are 100% sure it has not been treated with pesticides which are extremely lethal to fish in minute amounts.
> 
> 2. I believe walstad uses just a Powerhead to encourage circulation, but 3-4x tank volume turnover should be sufficient. As a note u stated South American and kribensis come from Africa. It really doesn't matter cause they can both adapt to parameters but just a note.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your replies. If I may go in order:

1. so any of the listed soils is fine as long as it is 100% organic? One of the bags had a note saying that the contents contain organic and/or inorganic fertilizers... this is a no go then? the others are fine? As for the clay, can I break a clay pot and place the pieces in? Would it work? And is the clay in the dirt section or substrate cover section? 

I found a substrate called "Aquaclay" don't know if mixing some of this in the soil and topping off with substrate would work.

2. I do not recall stating that they come from Africa? 

3. Would that lighting be enough/sufficient? For the plants I listed?

4. I imagined the Echinodorus would be fast growing and hence my concern for the dwarf water lily starving it out. I do not understand what you meant by the dwarf lily not being good for biological filtration (not fast enough?)... The only other ones I can think of is ludwigia repens (not sure if it grows fast though) and elodea (egeria densa). I tried water hycanith but they died off so I don't have any left.

Sadly, other than water lettuce, I cannot find any floating, or other plants. I also have never heard of spathe or emergent or the dwarf umbrella palm. Any idea where I should look? Are they all aquatic plants or may I be able to find them in large gardening supply stores.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> Thank you for your replies. If I may go in order:
> 
> 1. so any of the listed soils is fine as long as it is 100% organic? One of the bags had a note saying that the contents contain organic and/or inorganic fertilizers... this is a no go then?
> .


The biggest thing to avoid is fertilizer and/or manure. I believe dirt can be claimed to be organic even though it contains either of the above. So its still organic but not the correct choice for a dirted tank. 

I believe most potting soils use some sort of manure as a "built in fertilizer" so to say. That is great for the garden but will cause huge ammonia spikes in an aquarium. The miracle grow organic potting mix seems to be the dirt of choice around here. The ingredients in that include "poultry litter" (and perhaps used to list poultry manure). Its basically chicken manure as opposed to cow manure and does not result in ammonia spikes. You could also go outside and grab some dirt from the ground. Seems some people on the site have done that with no regrets. If you go that route you should likely mineralize the soil (which involves getting it wet, spreading it out on a tarp to let dry, and repeat multiple times)

You probably wouldnt want to break up a clay pot to put in the substrate (although I guess you could if you wanted to). You want soft clay and want to place it directly in the substrate as a source of iron for the plant roots to feed from. Try to look for red mexican pottery clay which can likely be found in a craft store and/or online somewhere. (the clay pot you're speaking of was likely formed from soft red clay to begin with!)


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

If you haven't used pesticides or dumped chemicals or anything in your garden soil, I'd probably go with that.

As far as bagged dirt/soil, I'd probably avoid anything with added fertilizers or manure (if it's composted, it will probably be okay).

If you aren't sure, you could try the Mineralized Top Soil (MTS) process, that should help make the soil relatively stable, and take care of any potential ammonia spikes in the process.

I wouldn't worry too much about the clay - it's mostly to add in Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC), but the humus (decomposed organics) also has a pretty high CEC value. Pretty much any iron in the clay is going to be locked up in the molecular structure of the mineral, and not available to plants. If you really want to add clay, either get it from a craft store, or use something like kitty litter (unscented, etc.), or stuff they use to clean up oil spills in garages and such (in the U.S. oil-dri and safe-t-sorb are the big ones, no clue what's over there, but I'm sure there is something similar)

There's quite a bit of flexibility with dirting a tank, people have used all kinds of stuff. If you do a fishless cycle before adding critters, or use MTS, you probably won't even have to worry about ammonia spikes - the fishless cycle takes about a month, and by then, pretty much anything that would produce an ammonia spike will be exhausted, or if it's not, there will be a sufficient bacterial population to compensate for it.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

lksdrinker said:


> The biggest thing to avoid is fertilizer and/or manure. I believe dirt can be claimed to be organic even though it contains either of the above. So its still organic but not the correct choice for a dirted tank.
> 
> I believe most potting soils use some sort of manure as a "built in fertilizer" so to say. That is great for the garden but will cause huge ammonia spikes in an aquarium. The miracle grow organic potting mix seems to be the dirt of choice around here. The ingredients in that include "poultry litter" (and perhaps used to list poultry manure). Its basically chicken manure as opposed to cow manure and does not result in ammonia spikes. You could also go outside and grab some dirt from the ground. Seems some people on the site have done that with no regrets. If you go that route you should likely mineralize the soil (which involves getting it wet, spreading it out on a tarp to let dry, and repeat multiple times)
> 
> You probably wouldnt want to break up a clay pot to put in the substrate (although I guess you could if you wanted to). You want soft clay and want to place it directly in the substrate as a source of iron for the plant roots to feed from. Try to look for red mexican pottery clay which can likely be found in a craft store and/or online somewhere. (the clay pot you're speaking of was likely formed from soft red clay to begin with!)


Sadly I cannot be certain that pesticides have not settled in to my garden soil since the municipality sprays aerial pesticides to control pest populations during the spring and summer. Of course the winter snow and rain may have washed it away but it is a risk.

I will try to find some pottery clay; but this "soft red clay" would be like an ooze when it gets in touch with water, wouldn't it?


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

lochaber said:


> If you haven't used pesticides or dumped chemicals or anything in your garden soil, I'd probably go with that.
> 
> As far as bagged dirt/soil, I'd probably avoid anything with added fertilizers or manure (if it's composted, it will probably be okay).
> 
> ...


I have heard of MTS, but unfortunately, and please forgive my complete ignorance, I have no idea how to do it properly. lksdrinker mentioned getting it wet then drying it multiple times but I have no idea on the details such as how wet, how much water, how dry should it be, how many times should the process be repeated until it is enough, when do I know when to stop, etc. I would appreciate it if you could elaborate a little on this.

Would fish-less cycling be as effective as MTS w.r.t. to ammonia spikes? How about a combo of both?


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

Also, I am still unsure if the lighting would be sufficient.


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

See answers in red.



aquariumhobbyist said:


> Thank you for your replies. If I may go in order:
> 
> 1. so any of the listed soils is fine as long as it is 100% organic? One of the bags had a note saying that the contents contain organic and/or inorganic fertilizers... this is a no go then? the others are fine? As for the clay, can I break a clay pot and place the pieces in? Would it work? And is the clay in the dirt section or substrate cover section? The added clay would go in the dirt section
> 
> ...


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## ThinkTank (May 24, 2011)

I think the bigger concern may be your choice of stock....most Cichlids dig. They'll put a hole in your cap and dirt will spew everywhere.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

gt turbo said:


> See answers in red.


thank you! I seem to have gotten the ramirezi's and kribensis origins confused, sorry about that.

Are you referring to broken clay pot pieces or soft clay as someone else suggested?

I still have elodea, my ludwigia's seem to have died off though


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

ThinkTank said:


> I think the bigger concern may be your choice of stock....most Cichlids dig. They'll put a hole in your cap and dirt will spew everywhere.


hmm... even the kribs? thought the rams were more cave dwellers so if I were to place a spawning cave, I'd be safe lol...


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

I personally used broken clay pot pieces in 90 gallon tank, but I'm sure either option would work.

As it relates to the cichlids, both types will dig when they are breeding. They usually move the spawn around so even if caves are provided they probably will only use them for the initial egg-laying and hatching, then they will be moved to a pit. Kribs are more cave dwellers while the rams will happily breed out in the open.

That said, a thick enough substrate cap would alleviate that concern.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

gt turbo said:


> I personally used broken clay pot pieces in 90 gallon tank, but I'm sure either option would work.
> 
> As it relates to the cichlids, both types will dig when they are breeding. They usually move the spawn around so even if caves are provided they probably will only use them for the initial egg-laying and hatching, then they will be moved to a pit. Kribs are more cave dwellers while the rams will happily breed out in the open.
> 
> ...


With regards to the "Aquaclay", is this sufficient as a clay substitute or would adding clay pieces to the dirt be good as well? My only concern is that this substrate is quite large (each particle is around 3-5 mm), which according to what I have learnt about the Walstad method is not good?


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

That doesn't seem very large to me but you are uncomfortable add them to your dirt layer as a clay substitute and cap with something else to your liking.

That's the beautiful thing about this hobby, there isn't a right answer, moreso many options, try what you think will give you the best result.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> Sadly I cannot be certain that pesticides have not settled in to my garden soil since the municipality sprays aerial pesticides to control pest populations during the spring and summer. Of course the winter snow and rain may have washed it away but it is a risk.
> 
> I will try to find some pottery clay; but this "soft red clay" would be like an ooze when it gets in touch with water, wouldn't it?


I was faced with the same question about which soil to use as I dont live in the US and all the suggested brands (Miracle Gro) are not available to me. What I did as a 1st step was start an experiment in a small bowl. You could do that too. Just dump some soil from your garden into a small bowl, cap it with gravel, plant it and leave it alone for around 4-5 weeks before adding fish, maybe do some WCs every week of so during that time. This will be a test for your soil.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> With regards to the "Aquaclay", is this sufficient as a clay substitute or would adding clay pieces to the dirt be good as well? My only concern is that this substrate is quite large (each particle is around 3-5 mm), which according to what I have learnt about the Walstad method is not good?


i think 3-5mm is good because it will allow better exchange b/w soil and water column thus avoiding anaerobic pockets. make sure the layer is an inch thick.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

adive said:


> i think 3-5mm is good because it will allow better exchange b/w soil and water column thus avoiding anaerobic pockets. make sure the layer is an inch thick.


Thank you alive. I appreciate the feedback. I am planning to go to a local supply seller this weekend to see if I can find some clay and proper soil. If no soil can be found, I'll just take whatever clay I can find. I might go back to my old idea of breaking a clay pot and sticking the pieces in...


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> I might go back to my old idea of breaking a clay pot and sticking the pieces in...


Your cichlids might appreciate a broken pot if you use it to make them a cave, but otherwise breaking up a clay pot is going to be pointless. It won't provide any nutrients in a form that can be utilized by plants.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> Thank you alive. I appreciate the feedback. I am planning to go to a local supply seller this weekend to see if I can find some clay and proper soil. If no soil can be found, I'll just take whatever clay I can find. I might go back to my old idea of breaking a clay pot and sticking the pieces in...


You can take a look at my walstad tank journal here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=625258&highlight=

I added red soil from a fertile region from the Indian Western region to a brown soil I got from a lake district near where I live. The red soil is actually some form of clay, rich in iron and used as a "rich fertilizing soil" for terrestrial plants/trees around here. I am satisfied with the growth I am getting. My cap is made of mostly inert 2mm grains. On one side its larger grains (3-5mm) + Japanese contro soil - kind of made use of leftovers from the previous substrate in that tank.

Hope you are able to get your ship off the ground soon, do post a journal maybe


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

lauraleellbp said:


> Your cichlids might appreciate a broken pot if you use it to make them a cave, but otherwise breaking up a clay pot is going to be pointless. It won't provide any nutrients in a form that can be utilized by plants.


Hmm, but aren't substrates like ADA Aqua clay basically clay that has been cooked (just like pottery) then divided in granules (which is equivalent to breaking up the pot to pieces)? Sure, it may not provide nutrients but I would assume that it provides a high CEC at the very least? For iron requirements, I will have to add the clay form, I am guessing though, so you are right.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

take a look at this
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=556922

clay is not absolutely a must.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

On top of the dirt add a half inch of sand, a layer of rigid plastic knitting mesh, and then cap with another inch or two of sand. 

That will keep the cichlids from rooting through the soil and making a mess.


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## aquariumhobbyist (Feb 18, 2014)

Mxx said:


> On top of the dirt add a half inch of sand, a layer of rigid plastic knitting mesh, and then cap with another inch or two of sand.
> 
> That will keep the cichlids from rooting through the soil and making a mess.


That is a good idea. Thank you. I cannot find plastic knitting mesh but I was able to find a plastic mosquito mesh/wire/net (the kind you put in front of windows to prevent mosquitoes and other insects from entering your home)... I think it would work if only it didn't assume the cylindrical shape it was stored as.


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## mar (Mar 15, 2014)

Research "mineralizing potting soil". There are in-depth instructions and many discussions. Doing this will help to understand the type of soil used, and doing so, outside in a bucket, rather than inside in the aquarium. Also look at "dry start method" unfortunately the plants listed will not do well with DSM.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> That is a good idea. Thank you. I cannot find plastic knitting mesh but I was able to find a plastic mosquito mesh/wire/net (the kind you put in front of windows to prevent mosquitoes and other insects from entering your home)... I think it would work if only it didn't assume the cylindrical shape it was stored as.


I prefer the more rigid type as you know it's not going to move, pull out, or break if you're doing things like pulling out plants. I bought a few sheets of that and tiled them around the bottom with an inch of overlap between sheets.

Try searching for either Plastic knitting canvas or plastic embroidery canvas on the major online auction site. Impex, embroidery, needlepoint, stiff, and mesh are also other keywords which seem to help locate it.


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

aquariumhobbyist said:


> Thank you alive. I appreciate the feedback. I am planning to go to a local supply seller this weekend to see if I can find some clay and proper soil. If no soil can be found, I'll just take whatever clay I can find. I might go back to my old idea of breaking a clay pot and sticking the pieces in...


You want unbaked clay by the way, pieces of clay pot aren't going to be of any benefit your soil.

I bought powdered red clay as well off the major auction site, which was easier to blend into the soil thoroughly. The clay absorbs and retains nutrients, and helps bind the soil together to keep it from making muddy water when it is all wet. I believe the red 'food grade' clay I bought online is high in iron, and is used for certain cosmetic procedures as well.


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