# DIY Tropica Plant Nutrition! Mix your own Micro solution on the cheap!



## lauraleellbp

Hmmmm....

Any plans to sell the recipe pre-mix pre-packaged yourself...?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I will have the dry ingredient, folks can supply the water We already have CSM+B on the site. The MnSo4 is in stock but needs to be loaded up on the site today


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## plantbrain

Bad idea to sell and have to ship water:icon_idea

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jman

Is it beneficial to add more Mn than is already present in the CSM+B?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

By looking at the analysis of Tropica's formula adding the extra is needed to bring levels up to par with Tropica.


DIY Tropica.. Tropica Master Grow
Fe 0.07% 0.07%
Mn 0.04% 0.04%
B 0.007% 0.004%
Cu 0.0005% 0.006%
Mo 0.0003% 0.002%
Zn 0.002% 0.002%


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## chad320

So if I make this by these specs I should be able to eliminate K2SO4 as long as I still add KH2PO4? Should I increase my KH2PO4? Or does the sulphur portion not matter that much? Just wondering if this made sense to you. FWIW I hope to eliminate it anyway and put some ground saltpeter under my wormstrate. We have a mine close so its cheap=free.


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## Darkblade48

Nowhere is sulfur (in the form of sulfate) mentioned in TMG. Why would you want to eliminate it (and how would KH2PO4 replace K2SO4?).


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## chad320

Darkblade48 said:


> Nowhere is sulfur (in the form of sulfate) mentioned in TMG. Why would you want to eliminate it (and how would KH2PO4 replace K2SO4?).


MnSO4 is mentioned in the first CSM+B clone recipe. I had eliminated this from mine because I add K2SO4. I realize sulfur is not what were targeting but didnt want to add too much by adding both. So if I MgSO4 to the mix, should I eliminate the K2SO4? Anbd if I eliminate K2SO4 should I add more KH2PO4 to make up for the lost K? Or does this not make any sense at all?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

MnS04


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## chad320

Thanks O, I was editing and still missed a bunch. Is there any chance of overdoing the sulphur is basically what im asking by adding both AND is it too risky too add that much more phosphate?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Not at all. I dose a little more of the recommended amount of phosphate based on EI. But, I also change water weekly so it does not matter for me 

What is your current dosing regimen?


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## chad320

CSB+B mix is 9 tsp. to 1000ml.
10%DTPA mix is 5.5 tsp per 1000ml
These are then mixed together
I add 6.5ml to a 65g 3x a week.


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## chad320

KNO3 is 11 tsp to a liter
K2SO4 is 14 tsp to a liter
KH2PO4 is 4.5 tsp to a liter

KNO3=120ml
K2SO4=48ml
KH2PO4= 24ml All 3x a week


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

If anything you could always lean back on K.


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## chad320

Guess ill be contacting you about the MnSO4 and the Millers then. Looks like I just tossed my wintertime chemistry set together


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

They will be up tomorrow.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

This first batch I made does not have any acid /glute so we will see how long it last without any foreign growth. So far, no problem


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I mixed up a batch using Microplex this time, as you can see from this photo its taken a little bit of a green color. I will test these and see how they do compared to the first mix. From what it cost to make these from 1/2LB bags it literally cost only a few cents to make 1000ML.


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## Indignation

Darkblade48 said:


> Nowhere is sulfur (in the form of sulfate) mentioned in TMG. Why would you want to eliminate it (and how would KH2PO4 replace K2SO4?).


Take a look here for a more detailed analysis of TMG. It does include sulfer.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I have added the final ingredients to the site for folks looking to mix there on. Remember folks, this is a *MICRO mix*, not an all in one solution.


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## barbarossa4122

Hi,

How much "TMG" dosing would you recommend for a 55g ? I know about this DIY Tropica for sometime but, never tried it.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

So far I have been using 10ML for every 20G. I may need to adjust this as weeks pass..But, eh we will see....


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> So far I have been using 10ML for every 20G. I may need to adjust this as weeks pass..But, eh we will see....


Is this weekly dosing or 3 times a week dosing ? Thank you.
I think Tropica recommends 5 ml of TPN per 50 L water per week


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Nah, I dose 3 times per week on some tanks. Other ounce or twice depending on how the tank looks. Im not afraid to feed my plants excess, no algae and fish and shrimp still kick and spawn


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Nah, I dose 3 times per week on some tanks. Other ounce or twice depending on how the tank looks. Im not afraid to feed my plants excess, no algae and fish and shrimp still kick and spawn


Thank you. I think I'll make some tomorrow and play with it to see what happens.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

This stuff cost you pennies on the $$, I think you will love it


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> This stuff cost you pennies on the $$, I think you will love it


Yep and I have tons of dry ferts to do it.


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## barbarossa4122

Is Miller Microplex better than CSM+B ?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Lets say its just different. It has a few more elements that CSM does not contain, but also CSM has more iron. This is why we add the DTPA 11% Iron. It also contains more copper than CSM.


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## barbarossa4122

OK. Thank you.


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## barbarossa4122

Miller doesn't have boron. Don't we need boron ? Sorry for all the Qs


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Miller Microplex

Mg-5.4% Bo-0.5% Co-0.05%
Cu-1.5% Fe-4.0% Mn-4.0%
Mb-0.1% Zn-1.5%


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Mg-5.4% Bo-0.5% Co-0.05%
> Cu-1.5% Fe-4.0% Mn-4.0%
> Mb-0.1% Zn-1.5%


Got it. Thanks a lot. I have one pound of CSM+ but, what the heck I'll get some Miller too


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Plantex CSM Miller's Microplex
--------------------------------------
Fe 7.0 % 4.0%
Mn 2.0 % 4.0 %
Mg 1.5 % 1.4 %
Zn 0.4 % 1.5 %
Cu 0.1 % 1.5 %
Mo 0.05 % ---
B --- 0.5 %
Co --- 0.05 %
Mb --- 0.1 %


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## bsmith

Could I use Fe Chelate 13% (EDTA) or Ferrous Gluconate in these mixes?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Both CSM and Microplex have EDTA iron so I would add the Gluconate.


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Both CSM and Microplex have EDTA iron so I would add the Gluconate.


............and some Super Iron 138 http://www.bes-tex.com/products.php?kei=8 maybe ? But, then it's not going to be "TPN" anymore, I guess.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

That can work, but it will turn your water a nice Kool-Aid color


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## chad320

Yeah, even 10% DTPA is noticeable at first. It goes away once it mixes good thank goodness.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

EDDHA iron can be used, but use caution when doing so.


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> That can work, but it will turn your water a nice Kool-Aid color


It does if you add too much. I've been adding one tsp of Sprint(EDDHA) to my DIY micros solution for 8 months now and no Kool-Aid color water.

My micros solution:
500ml water
2 TBS CSM
1 TBS DTPA
1 tsp Sprint(Kool Aid)
1/4 tsp Mn

You can make a Sprint Iron(EDDHA) solution and not have the Kool Aid water:
500ml water
2.5 tsp Sprint(EDDHA) Iron

Dose 1ml for 10g water if you like. This will add 0.02ppm of EDDHA Iron.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

That works fine for premix. Dosing directly into your tank is the part you want to avoid. Adding a few mg. to 500 or 1000ML will not cause any discoloration in these amounts.


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> That works fine for premix. Dosing directly into your tank is the part you want to avoid. Adding a few mg. to 500 or 1000ML will not cause any discoloration in these amounts.


Correct
I did dose dry once and I had red water for a few days until I did WC.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Seen that before With the combination of EDTA and DTPA Iron I can see needing anything more. Bio available Gluconate, but that does not last very long and needs to be dosed more often. In all, its all good


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## bsmith

So Ferrous Glucononate does not last very long in a tank and maybe should be dosed daily with Macros and Fe chelate or CSM+B has a longer lasting chelator and should be dosed normally on alternating days.


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## wet

I am very happy you're going to start packaging the Good Sh..., er, Stuff, Orlando! I wish you the best of luck with it and hope you find a way to keep the original name 

A note: when using Miller's Microplex, and if you have the goal of recreating the original formula (which clones Tropica Master Grow), you shouldn't replace 1:1 with CSM+B. Instead, try something like:

5003mg Miller's Microplex (You're fine to round this to 5g, of course)
1500mg DTPA Fe

And you're set. I sourced MnSO4.H2O to bring Plantex CSM+B to Miller's Microplex and then to Tropica proportions, but since you've Miller's on hand this is no longer necessary. 

(The original thread on this subject at Plantbrain's forum has some discussion on why we're dosing Mn. But the short of it is a) this is the only other micronutrient required in Fe-like quantities, and so we tackled it here to b) do what Tropica does.)

In regards to diversifying Fe chelators, I would suggest sticking with DTPA and, maybe, EDDHA as you've discussed with barbarossa4122. My reasoning for this is that Fe Glucconate and EDTA Fe are very similar in terms of pH and light tolerance, and if we're going to diversify, we may as well spend the extra nickel or whatever for the better chelator (DTPA) that has different properties/release times/etc (from CSM+B's EDTA). Otherwise, we're not really diversifying anything.

In regards to dosing, my idea is that we should scale dosing frequency to plant uptake. In other words, the low-medium light and plant mass tank should be dosed one or two times a week with Good Sh... The high light and uptake tank will probably show results from alternating or daily dosing. I believe we should always dose to target, then dose more frequently under higher uptake.

If you do decide to package and market this, I'm happy (eager!) to add your product to http://calc.petalphile.com to make your customer's lives a little easier, too.

(And hello from the wonderful AGA 2010!)


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Thanks Carlo for taking a break from AGA to post in the thread! Now get back to AGA! Have fun in South Florida, its sunny and warm so I know where I would be  


I mixxed my Microplex in the same way you have calculated above, except I was a little short in my numbers and used :

5000mg Microplex and 1400mg DTPA FE. I will use up the 2 mixes I have and start over next time with your numbers. 

I dont really plan to sell it as a "Mix" we are just providing the Microplex and Mn. Folks can add the water themselves and cook this up on there own 


Again!!! Thank you Carlo!

-O


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

So far no mold growth in either bottle so far so good.......


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## chad320

Anyone see the thread on the Barr report that Carlo is talking about? Can you get us the link? I love this thread Orlando I hope it stays this informative and cant wait to see some results from your experiments.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Carlo has been in communication with me and has confirmed he will be active here to help folks get things in line. All pretty easy though. Measure dump shake dose. *All so easy to do for just pennies folks!!!!!*


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## Hoppy

I'm planning to switch from CSM+B which I have about a teaspoon left of after 5 years of use to the Good Stuff (?) but I dose micros by making a premix so that one ounce is my dosage. I have a 16 ounce dosing bottle that I use. I think I can figure out how much to mix with the 16 ounces but has anyone tried this already?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Thats 473ml if my math is correct so I would say its safe to guy by Carlo's numbers based on the 500ml recipe.

Miller recipe:
5003mg Miller's Microplex (You're fine to round this to 5g, of course)
1500mg DTPA Fe

Or are you trying to figure out how to mix so you just dose your same 1oz as you always have?


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## Hoppy

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Thats 473ml if my math is correct so I would say its safe to guy by Carlo's numbers based on the 500ml recipe. Miller recipe: 5003mg Miller's Microplex (You're fine to round this to 5g of course) 1500mg DTPA Fe Or are you trying to figure out how to mix so you just dose your same 1oz as you always have?


 I wasn't too clear: I want to mix water, Microplex and iron chelate as dry powders into my 16 ounce bottle so I can dose one ounce every other day to my aquarium. I know this depends on the size of the aquarium and how much I want to dose but has someone already figured out a formula for EI dosing where tank size is in it? If not I will try to do so once I get my brain engaged with the subject.


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## Jeff5614

chad320 said:


> Anyone see the thread on the Barr report that Carlo is talking about? Can you get us the link? I love this thread Orlando I hope it stays this informative and cant wait to see some results from your experiments.


I think this is it.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthrea...ica-Plant-Nutrition-(or-how-to-make-the-Good-[censored][censored][censored][censored]%29


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## chad320

Thanks Jeff. Interesting thread there. IDK how I missed it the first time with a name like that! Jeff are you using this mix too?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hoppy said:


> I wasn't too clear: I want to mix water, Microplex and iron chelate as dry powders into my 16 ounce bottle so I can dose one ounce every other day to my aquarium. I know this depends on the size of the aquarium and how much I want to dose but has someone already figured out a formula for EI dosing where tank size is in it? If not I will try to do so once I get my brain engaged with the subject.


Between your brain and Carlo's Im hoping you 2 can get that part figured out. Im guessing iron levels are the key target for EI with this mix because its the only "thing" we can supposedly test for. You guy's are the DIY Jedi's so I was hoping that Carlo can get back, or you Hoppy.


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## Jeff5614

chad320 said:


> Thanks Jeff. Interesting thread there. IDK how I missed it the first time with a name like that! Jeff are you using this mix too?


Not yet, I'm currently using Flourish that I supplement with ferrous gluconate but with my next order of macros I'll be ordering Miller's Microplex and FeDPTA and giving it a try. I'll stay with the additional ferrous gluconate after making the switch to the good "stuff" though.


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## wet

Hoppy said:


> I wasn't too clear: I want to mix water, Microplex and iron chelate as dry powders into my 16 ounce bottle so I can dose one ounce every other day to my aquarium. I know this depends on the size of the aquarium and how much I want to dose but has someone already figured out a formula for EI dosing where tank size is in it? If not I will try to do so once I get my brain engaged with the subject.


Hey, Hoppy. I'm not sure how you'd like to scale Good Sh.. for EI, but this might help... 



Code:


Results of 100mg Miller's Microplex + 30mg DTPA Fe into 10 and 20 gal.

                        10 Gallons      20 Gallons
Fe via Microplex        0.106           0.053
Fe via DTPA             0.080           0.040
-----------------
Fe sum                  0.2             0.1
~

So, if your mixture for 16 doses is used on, say, 15 gallons, adding 1.6 grams of Microplex and 0.640 grams of DTPA Fe to that mixture would get you to 0.1 - 0.2ppm Fe per dose, using Fe as a proxy for all this other junk in the Good Sh... 



Code:


The other junk from the above dose...

(rounding to three places past the decimal.  All values are ppm)

                        10 Gallons      20 Gallons 
Mn                      0.106           0.053
Zn                      0.037           0.018
B                       0.013           0.007
Mo                      0.003           0.001
Co                      0.001           0.001

Are you looking for something more general or specific? I manipulated my calc to try to answer the question, so the way you're looking at this problem will probably lead to a new revision and is valuable to me.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

This is great


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## Hoppy

wet said:


> Hey, Hoppy. I'm not sure how you'd like to scale Good Sh.. for EI, but this might help...
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> Results of 100mg Miller's Microplex + 30mg DTPA Fe into 10 and 20 gal.
> 
> 10 Gallons      20 Gallons
> Fe via Microplex        0.106           0.053
> Fe via DTPA             0.080           0.040
> -----------------
> Fe sum                  0.2             0.1
> ~
> 
> So, if your mixture for 16 doses is used on, say, 15 gallons, adding 1.6 grams of Microplex and 0.640 grams of DTPA Fe to that mixture would get you to 0.1 - 0.2ppm Fe per dose, using Fe as a proxy for all this other junk in the Good Sh...
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> The other junk from the above dose...
> 
> (rounding to three places past the decimal.  All values are ppm)
> 
> 10 Gallons      20 Gallons
> Mn                      0.106           0.053
> Zn                      0.037           0.018
> B                       0.013           0.007
> Mo                      0.003           0.001
> Co                      0.001           0.001
> 
> Are you looking for something more general or specific? I manipulated my calc to try to answer the question, so the way you're looking at this problem will probably lead to a new revision and is valuable to me.


Thank you! That helps a lot. Of course I need to zero in more on just how much of what I want to dose - my tanks are low light ripariums. I depend on the water column dosing for most of the nutrients for the above water plants, as well for all of the nutrients for the below water plants. I have been dosing about half or less of the weekly amounts called for in the EI tables, but I have been thinking about increasing that.

In the next day or two I hope to get my brain warmed up, in gear, and on the job!


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## Hoppy

Holy Cow! I ordered some Microplex, etc. from GLA on Friday, and it arrived today, Monday! I suppose Priority Mail from Florida goes by rocket?

So, since I'm out of premixed fertilizers now, I warmed up my brain and this is what resulted:

Working backwards from what I have been mixing for traces, which has been one big teaspoon of CSM+B+Extra Iron, purchased back when you could buy it that way. I think I recall that the amount of iron was double what was in CSM. To that I added a teaspoon of magnesium sulfate, to be sure I always have some magnesium even if my soft water is sometimes short of it.

I'm dosing about 20 gallons of water in each of two tanks, one ounce or one sixteenth of the premix per dose, 3X per week. That amounts to just about what the EI dosage is. Thinking back again, I began doing that when my riparium plants in the planters grew big enough that I was pretty sure I needed a lot more than the fraction of EI that I had been dosing.

So, I decided to stick with roughly full EI dosing, except substituting Microplex for CSM+B, and doubling the iron in the Microplex. This led me to decide to make my pre-mix 1 teaspoon of Microplex, 1/2 teaspoon of chelated iron, and one teaspoon of magnesium sulfate. So, each dose 3X per week will be about 1/16th tsp of Microplex, 1/32 tsp of chelated iron, and 1/16 tsp of magnesium sulfate.

I don't want to go higher on dosing because I do daily 4-5 gallon water changes, done by a automated water change system, so I don't do any one time 50% water changes. But, my changes actually end up removing over 70% of the beginning of the week tank water per week. I don't think I can build up a too big excess of anything, but I'm not sure enough to push the dosing any harder yet.

This isn't precision science, but I don't believe precision is needed, and this makes me happy:biggrin: Now time will tell if I remain happy.


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## Hoppy

Looking at the ingredients in Miller Microplex, the difference in copper between it and CSM stands out - 1.5% vs .09%. Has anyone used this with sensitive shrimp in the tank, and does it affect them?


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## bsmith

Hoppy said:


> Looking at the ingredients in Miller Microplex, the difference in copper between it and CSM stands out - 1.5% vs .09%. Has anyone used this with sensitive shrimp in the tank, and does it affect them?


I think you should take a pic today and then again in a month to see what differences you notice in plant growth/foliage. I'm horrible at discerning differences in my tank over any given amount of time so I always take pics to do comparisons.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Hoppy said:


> Looking at the ingredients in Miller Microplex, the difference in copper between it and CSM stands out - 1.5% vs .09%. Has anyone used this with sensitive shrimp in the tank, and does it affect them?


 So far no Amano trouble...


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## Hoppy

Amano shrimp are pretty hardy. I was thinking more of the Crystal Red shrimp, which I understand are much less hardy. I don't have any shrimp at all myself, but if the copper is a potential problem people should probably be alerted to that. Like anything else testing will eventually answer the question, I guess. 

BSmith, I change my riparium around so much a picture comparison wouldn't show much. And, my little 8 gallon nano cube is a low light, non-CO2 tank, very slow changing at best. I watch it carefully every day since it sits right beside my computer.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

So far no mold.. Painted Fire Red Shrimp are molting and living it up.....


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## Ben Belton

I've always liked Flourish, but the older I get the cheaper I get, and I like this. I'm ready to give it a try, but it will be awhile before I use up my Flourish.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Definitely super cost effective and easily dosed for any size aquarium.


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## Hoppy

I have nothing bad to report, and in my 8 gallon nano cube the plants seem to be picking up in growth, which could just be because it has been set up long enough now. Another week or two should be interesting.


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## Aquaticz

Hi,
Can a Mod can we make this a sticky please?


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## barbarossa4122

Just made some this morning and will start dosing tomorrow. I am a bit worry that this "TPN" doesn't have enough Fe. Anyway, I'll make some Fe Gluconate solution to supplement my Fe dosing.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

barbarossa4122 said:


> Just made some this morning and will start dosing tomorrow. I am a bit worry that this "TPN" doesn't have enough Fe. Anyway, I'll make some Fe Gluconate solution to supplement my Fe dosing.


 Not enough FE? How so? Remember, this is DIY Anything can be adjusted


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Not enough FE? How so? Remember, this is DIY Anything can be adjusted


When I make my DIY micro solution I use :
2 TBS CSM
1.5 tsp DTPA
1.5 tsp Fe gluconate
1.5 tsp Sprint 138 EDDHA

I know it can be adjusted but, I want to try the "TPN" following your/Wet recipe.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I see, you have an extreme abundant amount of Iron in your trace. Try this mix and work it from there, I see no issue with the recipe and definitely do not see an iron deficiencies.


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## barbarossa4122

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> I see, you have an extreme abundant amount of Iron in your trace. Try this mix and work it from there, I see no issue with the recipe and definitely do not see an iron deficiencies.


Will do. Thanks Orlando.


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## Hoppy

Hoppy said:


> I have nothing bad to report, and in my 8 gallon nano cube the plants seem to be picking up in growth, which could just be because it has been set up long enough now. Another week or two should be interesting.












This is the nano cube today.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Thanks for your update Hoppy. Plants look happy and green


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## Hoppy

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Thanks for your update Hoppy. Plants look happy and green


Most of those are crypts, and they are significantly greener than they were a couple of weeks ago. Since they can be slow to take off, especially with low light, I can't say the change in fertilizer had any effect yet.


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## CptanPanic

So is everyone using Millers Microplex plus DTPA ? Does GLA carry the DTPA? I don't see it.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Its 11% Iron DTPA


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## wet

Hoppy said:


> Looking at the ingredients in Miller Microplex, the difference in copper between it and CSM stands out - 1.5% vs .09%. Has anyone used this with sensitive shrimp in the tank, and does it affect them?


Still not overly sensitive, but I've bred (enough to trade back to an LFS regularly) Cherry Shrimp in a sump that received direct dry-dosing of Microplex in the past. That same system (the main tank) unintentionally bred Psuedomugil gertrudae/Blue-eyed rainbowfish and Whiteclouds, again not particularly difficult. If you are at all concerned about Cu and fauna, I think it's wiser to start with CSM+B as the base to Good Stuff/adding Fe/Mn/etc simply because the peace of mind is worth more than the time and cost for a Mn source vs Microplex, despite my experiences.

I think greener green plants are a benefit of good micronutrient dosing, by the way. When people say Fe brings out reds in plants, I think it's only true when we're already talking about red plants (L. guinea, R. macrandra, etc.) Stuff that's green and can get red (Blyxa japonica, legit R, india/Ammania sp 'Bonsai', etc) benefit from good trace dosing but I think inducing reds from them or more dependent on other things...


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## barbarossa4122

Hey Wet,

I just ordered Microplex from GLA and I think I am going to do this solution:

500 ml bottle

3 tsp CSM
5 tsp Microplex
1.5 tsp DTPA
1.5 tsp Fe Gluc
1/16 tsp Mn


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## wet

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hey Wet,
> 
> I just ordered Microplex from GLA and I think I am going to do this solution:
> 
> 500 ml bottle
> 
> 3 tsp CSM
> 5 tsp Microplex
> 1.5 tsp DTPA
> 1.5 tsp Fe Gluc
> 1/16 tsp Mn


With 5mL doses into 50 gallons this is pretty good:



Code:


dosed 5mL into 50gal
                        Fe      Mn
Plantex CSM+B (EDTA)    0.045   0.013
MicroPlex     (?)       0.039   0.039
DTPA Fe                 0.034
Fe Glucconate           0.024
MnSO4                           0.001
--------
Sum                     0.142   0.053

However, part of the goal of the original mixture is to get closer to Tropica's proportions, in which case I'd suggest you add 2tsp MnSO4 instead to get



Code:


dosed 5mL into 50gal
                        Fe      Mn
Plantex CSM+B (EDTA)    0.045   0.013
MicroPlex     (?)       0.039   0.039
DTPA Fe                 0.034
Fe Glucconate           0.024
MnSO4                           0.026
--------
Sum                     0.142   0.078

The idea is if you need Fe that often, maybe you need Mn too. I like increasing concentrations in the mixture to reduce the amount per dose, too, by the way.


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## barbarossa4122

wet said:


> With 5mL doses into 50 gallons this is pretty good:
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> dosed 5mL into 50gal
> Fe      Mn
> Plantex CSM+B (EDTA)    0.045   0.013
> MicroPlex     (?)       0.039   0.039
> DTPA Fe                 0.034
> Fe Glucconate           0.024
> MnSO4                           0.001
> --------
> Sum                     0.142   0.053
> 
> However, part of the goal of the original mixture is to get closer to Tropica's proportions, in which case I'd suggest you add 2tsp MnSO4 instead to get
> 
> 
> 
> Code:
> 
> 
> dosed 5mL into 50gal
> Fe      Mn
> Plantex CSM+B (EDTA)    0.045   0.013
> MicroPlex     (?)       0.039   0.039
> DTPA Fe                 0.034
> Fe Glucconate           0.024
> MnSO4                           0.026
> --------
> Sum                     0.142   0.078
> 
> The idea is if you need Fe that often, maybe you need Mn too. I like increasing concentrations in the mixture to reduce the amount per dose, too, by the way.


OK, I'll add more Mn. Thanks.


----------



## wet

Re: Copper. barbarossa4122 brought this up on Plantbrain's forum, and it's probably relevant here:

Found this in the MSDS for Copper Sulfate: http://www.oldbridgechem.com/msdscuso4.html



> Aquatic Toxicity	LC50, 24 hours, Daphnia magna equals 0.182 mg/l. Rainbow Trout equals 0.17 mg/l. Blue Gill equals 1.5 mg/l.


So, I just added an alert for this to calc.petalphile.com: If you are at or above the most sensitive animal above (0.17ppm Cu), it will make a red colored alert, like this:



I was going to add Sulphur, too, since folks sometimes ask for it, but googling gave this article: http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/pyrethrins-ziram/sulfur-ext.html It says:


> Effects on Aquatic Organisms
> 
> The 96-hour LC50 values for two fish species, bluegill sunfish and rainbow trout, are greater than 180 ppm in a study using a 99.5% sulfur dust formulation. The 48-hour LC50 for daphnia and the 96-hour LC50 for mysid shrimp is reported to be greater than 5,000 and 736 ppm, respectively, in a study using 90% sulfur (9, 10). In studies on ecological effects involving two fish species, daphnia, and mysid shrimp, sulfur has been shown to be practically non-toxic to the species tested (1, 3, 7, 8).


... So, I don't think any of us will ever need to worry about it.


----------



## Jeff5614

That's a very good addition and should allay most anyone's fears about adding too much copper.


----------



## chad320

Thanks Barbarossa and wet for the portions. Now I dont have to research and think it out. I like to dose mine 1ml per gallon just to simplify it.


----------



## wet

Re: Copper again

So tug found a great link Philosophous posted a while ago, with animals much more specific to our aquarius than the MSDS above: http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAcuteSum.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33538&Taxa_Group=Crustaceans&offset=0

You can look up individual species here but it is cumbersome:
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33538&offset=200

Sweet, right? If we use the standard of Caridina sp., we have a value of 0.072ppm Cu as safe (the Lethal Concentration * 50%). This passes the smell test where breeders have often said Caridina sp -- like Crystal Red Shrimp -- are more sensitive than Neocaridina -- like Red Cherry Shrimp -- which have a tolerance ~5x higher. So, what do you think? Should 0.07ppm Cu be the new standard limit for Copper moving forward? What if a guy doesn't keep Crystal Reds? Should the calculator and these formulas still make notice of this limit for general purposes/guidelines/etc?

If so, lets use this same philosophy for all the other nutrients and collect it for all the elements we dose, then if we are in danger of overdosing have the calculator cite how much we're over, with what species, and a link.

If folks are up for helping collecting this for any nutrients they're worried about (say, Fe or B or whatever), we could get this online quickly!


----------



## wet

re: Copper closure

I've dropped the alert threshold to 0.072ppm Copper, which is listed in the Pesticides Database above as the safe level for Caridina sp., on average. The calculator now sends you to this wiki page for this project: https://github.com/flores/yet-another-nutrient-calculator/wiki/Copper(Cu), where you'll also find thresholds for many common species in our aquariums, from Rosy barbs to Stone loaches.

This is a public wiki and moving forward we can make any new changes for copper toxicity thresholds there. 

Thanks!


----------



## sewingalot

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Thats 473ml if my math is correct so I would say its safe to guy by Carlo's numbers based on the 500ml recipe.
> 
> Miller recipe:
> 5003mg Miller's Microplex (You're fine to round this to 5g, of course)
> 1500mg DTPA Fe
> 
> Or are you trying to figure out how to mix so you just dose your same 1oz as you always have?


:help: My brain is hurting from trying to figure this out. If I take this recipe, mix it in the 500 mL of water, how many mL of solution do I need to add for each 10 gallons as a starting point? I am thinking 1 mL, but I am not so sure. I know you have to tweak it for your plants needs, but I am looking for a ball park to shoot for. Could someone spell it out for me?


----------



## Hoppy

With a trace element mix, you have to pick one of the trace elements and dose to bring that one to the concentration in the water that you want. Usually people do that using Fe as the one to control. But, when you double up the amount of Fe in the mix, following that method results in lowering the concentration of all the other elements. So, I have been figuring the concentration of one of the other elements, when CSM+B is dosed per the EI recommendations, then matching that concentration for iron rich Microplex. That probably just adds to the confusion.


----------



## wet

As a general guide, though, Tropica's starting recommendation is 1mL per 10L, so about 3-4mL per 10 gallons of the standard mixture. There's many people who double dosed this over the years, hence the complaints after Tropica Master Grow became the much more expensive (in the US) Tropica Plant Nutrition.


----------



## barbarossa4122

wet said:


> As a general guide, though, Tropica's starting recommendation is 1mL per 10L, so about 3-4mL per 10 gallons of the standard mixture. There's many people who double dosed this over the years, hence the complaints after Tropica Master Grow became the much more expensive (in the US) Tropica Plant Nutrition.


Hi Wet,

Will 3-4ml/10g be enough to equal EI dosing recommendation for micros ?
Oh, and how many times/week ?


----------



## wet

Hey barbarossa!

That dose will be enough for EI. I recall Plantbrain suggesting 5-10mL per 20-25 gallons back when he used TMG on the regular.

My opinion is we should dose to target and increase frequency with light. So, 1-2 times a week for low-medium light. 4 times to daily for high and very high light.

(Using diversified chelators, such as with these mixtures discussed here, should help ensure Fe remains available between such doses.)


----------



## chad320

Thanks wet,

I have been double dosing a medium light tank every other day and it seems to be working out OK so far. So does that make it EI or is it still PPS-pro? Or a hybred?


----------



## barbarossa4122

wet said:


> Hey barbarossa!
> 
> That dose will be enough for EI. I recall Plantbrain suggesting 5-10mL per 20-25 gallons back when he used TMG on the regular.
> 
> My opinion is we should dose to target and increase frequency with light. So, 1-2 times a week for low-medium light. 4 times to daily for high and very high light.
> 
> (Using diversified chelators, such as with these mixtures discussed here, should help ensure Fe remains available between such doses.)


Great. Thanks again Wet


----------



## sewingalot

Hoppy said:


> With a trace element mix, you have to pick one of the trace elements and dose to bring that one to the concentration in the water that you want. Usually people do that using Fe as the one to control. But, when you double up the amount of Fe in the mix, following that method results in lowering the concentration of all the other elements. So, I have been figuring the concentration of one of the other elements, when CSM+B is dosed per the EI recommendations, then matching that concentration for iron rich Microplex. That probably just adds to the confusion.


That's the math I was figuring for (iron target like other micros), but I couldn't quite figure out if this was the best way to go about it. I kept coming up with about 27 mL for the 55 and it just seemed like a lot for some reason.



wet said:


> As a general guide, though, Tropica's starting recommendation is 1mL per 10L, so about 3-4mL per 10 gallons of the standard mixture. There's many people who double dosed this over the years, hence the complaints after Tropica Master Grow became the much more expensive (in the US) Tropica Plant Nutrition.


Thanks for the general idea. I'll do this for now and adjust from there as the plants respond. I really need to go back and check my math. These mols, percentages, milliliters are ready starting to confuse me.


----------



## barbarossa4122

chad320 said:


> Thanks wet,
> 
> I have been double dosing a medium light tank every other day and it seems to be working out OK so far. So does that make it EI or is it still PPS-pro? Or a hybred?


I would like to know this also.


----------



## wet

Hey chad320. I think stability is important and that daily dosing is actually easier (less algae/variables) under high light, and I don't really think of it as general guidelines anymore (EI and PPS-Pro's goals) but good dosing tailored to the individual tank. That's just me and probably a terrible answer though. I can see how this is Perpetually Preserving the target to some folks.

sewingalot - is your target ~0.1ppm Fe? If so, that calculation looks about right (I am ballparking). I think aquascaping-minded folk like Tropica and ADA dilute their ferts in this way because it's easier for the little tanks they sell so much of  

You could always increase the concentration of your mixture to make dosing easier in your bigger tank; for example, I think it's always easier to make mixes such that we use 5mL doses. 

I might order some Microplex from Orlando, pick up a pistol and mortar, and then grind it up with Fe DTPA for this Good Stuff variant and stick it into the calculator. If you'd like, us doing these calculations out psuedo-whiteboard style might be of value to folks...


----------



## barbarossa4122

I try to stay within EI but, I always over dose, with good results so far. I love Iron, don't ask me why but, I think Wet is the reason


----------



## chad320

barbarossa4122 said:


> I try to stay within EI but, I always over dose, with good results so far. I love Iron, don't ask me why but, I think Wet is the reason


Im liking this balance somewhere between EI and PPS because I just despise waterchanges. Its about time to set up an automated rig for this protion of it. The PPS works for me for now, although I now feel a biweekly water change would be better than a monthly. If I go automated, id likely switch back to EI


----------



## sewingalot

wet said:


> sewingalot - is your target ~0.1ppm Fe? If so, that calculation looks about right (I am ballparking). I think aquascaping-minded folk like Tropica and ADA dilute their ferts in this way because it's easier for the little tanks they sell so much of
> 
> You could always increase the concentration of your mixture to make dosing easier in your bigger tank; for example, I think it's always easier to make mixes such that we use 5mL doses.
> 
> I might order some Microplex from Orlando, pick up a pistol and mortar, and then grind it up with Fe DTPA for this Good Stuff variant and stick it into the calculator. If you'd like, us doing these calculations out psuedo-whiteboard style might be of value to folks...


Yes, the target is approximately .1ppm Fe for now. I am starting out on the lower side as I am planning on dosing daily. I will adjust as need. I thought about adding more to the mix, but I wasn't sure if the solubility rate of Microplex with the Fe added. I was thinking it would be similar to CSMB, but I wasn't sure with the added Mn.

That would be great if you would add that to your calculator. It would definitely benefit us all.


----------



## barbarossa4122

sewingalot said:


> Yes, the target is approximately .1ppm Fe for now. I am starting out on the lower side as I am planning on dosing daily. I will adjust as need. I thought about adding more to the mix, but I wasn't sure if the solubility rate of Microplex with the Fe added. I was thinking it would be similar to CSMB, but I wasn't sure with the added Mn.
> 
> That would be great if you would add that to your calculator. It would definitely benefit us all.


Hi sewingalot, 

500 ml bottle:
I added 7 ml undiluted Metricide 14 (or 10-11ml Excel) to the DI water and let it settle for 10 min or so then I warmed up the water a bit.
I mixed 3 tsp CSM with 5 tsp Miller + 1.5 tsp DTPA + 1.5 tsp Fe Gluconate + 2 tsp MnSo4 without problems.


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks for the information! This will definitely help in the future if I like the samples that I got from Jeff and decide to buy the actual pound of fertilizer.


----------



## barbarossa4122

sewingalot said:


> Thanks for the information! This will definitely help in the future if I like the samples that I got from Jeff and decide to buy the actual pound of fertilizer.


Welcome. I got the sample from Jeff one day after I got 1/2 lb of Miller from GLA. Lol, both look the same.


----------



## Jeff5614

barbarossa4122 said:


> Welcome. I got the sample from Jeff one day after I got 1/2 lb of Miller from GLA. Lol, both look the same.


They look the same because they are the same :icon_lol: .


----------



## sewingalot

barbarossa4122 said:


> Welcome. I got the sample from Jeff one day after I got 1/2 lb of Miller from GLA. Lol, both look the same.


Aren't you supposed to try out the sample before plunging in to buy the product?  This sounds like something I'd do. So far, the plants seem to be responding positively. At least most of the plants are growing.


----------



## barbarossa4122

sewingalot said:


> Aren't you supposed to try out the sample before plunging in to buy the product?  This sounds like something I'd do. So far, the plants seem to be responding positively. At least most of the plants are growing.


Lost patience  I had to order some other stuff from GLA and I thought will be a good idea to also get the Miller.


----------



## Ben Belton

barbarossa4122 said:


> Lost patience  I had to order some other stuff from GLA and I thought will be a good idea to also get the Miller.


haha... I'm about to do the same. Waiting on GLA to get some other things back in stock. I have so much Flourish to use up, but I want to try this.


----------



## barbarossa4122

Ben Belton said:


> haha... I'm about to do the same. Waiting on GLA to get some other things back in stock. I have so much Flourish to use up, but I want to try this.


I think Orlando is getting the stuff today.


----------



## Ben Belton

barbarossa4122 said:


> I think Orlando is getting the stuff today.


I figured he was letting his inventory get down at the end of the year for inventory/taxes. I was going to hang on a few weeks to see if he got stuff back in after the new year.... and of course, its not like he isn't reading this thread :icon_smil


----------



## herns

Jeff5614 said:


> They look the same because they are the same :icon_lol: .


Jeff,

Got the ferts yesterday, Thanks.


----------



## snausage

I'm just curious how people are evaluating the effectiveness of one trace formula vs. another? Is it just a simple matter of comparing the concentrations?

They all seem very similar and I doubt there's any empirical evidence that proves one formulation is superior to another because it has 0.0005 % more boron or copper.


----------



## Hoppy

snausage said:


> I'm just curious how people are evaluating the effectiveness of one trace formula vs. another? Is it just a simple matter of comparing the concentrations?
> 
> They all seem very similar and I doubt there's any empirical evidence that proves one formulation is superior to another because it has 0.0005 % more boron or copper.


Ultimately you have to compare plant growth with the two formulations. I can't see much difference, if any, so I think Microplex, with extra iron, is at least as good as CSM+B with extra iron. I haven't tried it with extra manganese.


----------



## chad320

Hoppy said:


> Ultimately you have to compare plant growth with the two formulations. I can't see much difference, if any, so I think Microplex, with extra iron, is at least as good as CSM+B with extra iron. I haven't tried it with extra manganese.


Me and bSmith are getting ready to try this out so we'll keep you informed.


----------



## Dempsey

So for a high light/high co2 75g tank, would you all reccomend maybe,...15-20ml a day? or 30ml 3x a week?

I forgot to mention, I used 1tsp of millers and 3/4tsp of CSM+B in a 500ml bottle(+10ml of excel). I did that since I haven't odered the others yet...


----------



## wet

Hoppy said:


> Ultimately you have to compare plant growth with the two formulations. I can't see much difference, if any, so I think Microplex, with extra iron, is at least as good as CSM+B with extra iron. I haven't tried it with extra manganese.


I think you have tried it, since Microplex is in such proportions that you do not need to supplement it and DTPA with any more Manganese to essentially have Tropica Master Grow: diversified chelators for Fe, increased Mn, generally lower overall Fe target, generally lower ppm of the other traces.

[ It should be noted that Tropica also uses HEEDTA chelate for Fe, a very hard to obtain product (in the USA, at least) that remains available longer than DTPA vs pH and light. 

FWIW, I've used EDDHA in low proportions as a supplement, which stays available even longer. The best summary of my amateur tests is that I don't bother with EDDHA any more. We documented our experience with chelators and did some linkage to smarter people here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/67958-chelated-iron-yes-no.html ]

It's hard to argue that there's another trace element or mix that has more unique things or is more highly regarded than Tropica. In this way, I think whether you make another batch is the measure of whether traces in particular proportions are worth caring about. 



snausage said:


> I'm just curious how people are evaluating the effectiveness of one trace formula vs. another? Is it just a simple matter of comparing the concentrations?


In terms of cloning Tropica, yes, it is a matter of 1) comparing the concentrations and 2) caring about chelators for Iron (Fe). 

In terms of effectiveness, I think you should dose for a month or two and see. 

I think traces matter enough that I make the Good Stuff, but don't think traces make or break plant growth, and stopped messing with proportions past these formulas as general guides. I think good trace dosing makes plants look nice and think you should try, too. I feel obligated to explicitly state that good trace dosing will not save a sick tank. 


> They all seem very similar and I doubt there's any empirical evidence that proves one formulation is superior to another because it has 0.0005 % more boron or copper.


Do you dose additional Fe in your tank, via DTPA or EDTA or Flourish Iron or whatever? Do you see improvement? Is it enough that you keep dosing additional Fe? 

Do you find it interesting that both Claus's Tropica and Plantbrain use diversified Fe chelators? Lots of people who can make any mix they want buy DTPA Fe and use it in addition to a weaker chelated form of Fe, and their anecdotal experience is supported by DTPA staying available longer than other chelators vs higher pH and light.

Do you ever read APD and find it interesting a bunch of folks, including plenty of grumpy old farts, hardly ever had a bad thing to say about Tropica Master Grow? Do you find it interesting that Tropica is different than other comprehensive traces in our hobby?

Do you find it interesting that per Walstad (cited by DianaK below) her measurements of dry mass showed her plants had Fe at 200 mg/kg and Mn at 350 mg/kg?

Just reasons to try man. Try and see what you think, especially if you have nice plants now and are looking for something to mess with. 

Dempsey,

Under high light I'd probably double that to start. (Increasing the amount in your mixture is the same thing, of course, and my preferred way.) If it's a stem tank you've got to keep up on for trimming I'd suggest daily over 3x a week, again for what it's worth.

I HTH


----------



## Ben Belton

wet said:


> Do you ever read APD and find it interesting a bunch of folks, including plenty of grumpy old farts, hardly ever had a bad thing to say about Tropica Master Grow?


haha... I always felt that the grumpy old farts that I'm thinking of on the APD were always too closed minded to try anything else. They loved their TMG and that was all they would entertain. One of them (someone you mention above), and I were mailing and they didn't know what they were going to do when they ran out of TMG. They had never tried anything else to be able to compare. I offered to buy them some Flourish if they would just try it. :icon_smil

But, that was a long time ago (in Internet years), and things have changed.

I started out using Flourish and then I think they stopped selling TMG in the US. So I never tried it. I'm looking forward to trying this when I run out. Two bottles left!

If I wanted to make a more concentrated solution of this, where do you run into solubility issues? Can I double the concentration? Sorry if this is addressed. Too many posts to go back through right now.

Most excellent thread :bounce:.
Ben


----------



## wet

Hey Ben. You can definitely double (to at least 4x) the concentrations of these mixes. I tried to get a more definitive answer but, for example, Plantex's MSDS does not list solubility for this particular product; however, they do list it as a "soluble fertilizer," and the other products they have in this category have solubilities of at least 3.5 pounds per gallon. So you should be okay. Historically, a common standard mix was 3TBL (9 teaspoons) of CSM+B into 500mL of water.

(In reality, Boric acid - the B in CSM+B - is not very soluble. In application a good shake before pulling out the solution should be fine.)

Notes for http://calc.petalphile.com :
1) Updated Cu toxicity copy (dbazuin, Biollante and tug's input)
2) Updated the Cu wiki page with caveats and linkage (the above and Plantbrain's input and warnings)
3) The calculator now accepts fractions for teaspoon input. You can now how it calculate 1/4 of a tsp of Microplex or CSM+B, for example.


----------



## Dempsey

wet said:


> Dempsey,
> 
> Under high light I'd probably double that to start. (Increasing the amount in your mixture is the same thing, of course, and my preferred way.) If it's a stem tank you've got to keep up on for trimming I'd suggest daily over 3x a week, again for what it's worth.
> 
> I HTH


Thank you!

So if I go daily, would that be daily with the current concentration or daily with 2x? Daily with 2x and dosing 15ml?


----------



## wet

Hey Dempsey. Daily at either 2x the dose (~30mL) or 2x the concentration. Either way you'll be around 0.08ppm Fe and definitely have room to double the dose again. I still think you should do one of these other mixes specifically so you get the DTPA Fe (especially if you have moderate to hard water), and reduce the other traces present in Microplex and CSM+B.

The idea is you dose to your target more often because you assume the plants uptake quickly. You assume any moderate dose today will hardly be there tomorrow.

For what it's worth, for a very high uptake stem tank I dose around 0.1 to 0.2ppm daily Fe from Good Stuff.


----------



## Dempsey

wet said:


> Hey Dempsey. Daily at either 2x the dose (~30mL) or 2x the concentration. Either way you'll be around 0.08ppm Fe and definitely have room to double the dose again. I still think you should do one of these other mixes specifically so you get the DTPA Fe (especially if you have moderate to hard water), and reduce the other traces present in Microplex and CSM+B.
> 
> The idea is you dose to your target more often because you assume the plants uptake quickly. You assume any moderate dose today will hardly be there tomorrow.
> 
> For what it's worth, for a very high uptake stem tank I dose around 0.1 to 0.2ppm daily Fe from Good Stuff.


Thanks again, Wet!

I have Fe coming in the mail and Knowing Orlando, it will be here in no time. I think tomorrow or Saturday looking at the tracking info. 

I will be mixing them up as soon as I get it.

Clint

BTW, High light being 4x54watt T5HO bulbs(with the option for 6) about 8" above the water on a standard 75g.


----------



## Ben Belton

I have some iron chelate I bought in maybe 2003. It has been so long I don't know if it is DTPA or EDDHA. Do they look different? The one I have is an greenish bronze color. Depending on which one I have, I might not need to buy any to make some "Good St..."

Ben


----------



## barbarossa4122

Ben Belton said:


> I have some iron chelate I bought in maybe 2003. It has been so long I don't know if it is DTPA or EDDHA. Do they look different? The one I have is an greenish bronze color. Depending on which one I have, I might not need to buy any to make some "Good St..."
> 
> Ben


EDDHA is black and it turns dark red when mixed with water.


----------



## Ben Belton

OK. This one is definitely greenish orange, so I must have EDDHA.

Thanks


----------



## barbarossa4122

Ben Belton said:


> OK. This one is definitely greenish orange, so I must have EDDHA.
> 
> Thanks


My Sprint 138 EDDHA is black.


----------



## Ben Belton

haha... OK. I wonder which I have.


----------



## wet

Ben,

Are you thinking of EDTA vs DTPA maybe? They look really similar and I'm not sure pictures on the net will help, though I recall seeing pictures somewhere (via Orlando? Can't find them now.) 

barbarossa was part of the group buy to first document EDDHA in our hobby (via Sprint 138), and that was just this past year. I don't think it's ever been stocked by any of the regular suppliers.

Dempsey,

I checked out your tank last night, by the way. Nice and great pics! I'm excited to read what you think after messing with daily dosing and this mix.


----------



## Ben Belton

It could be EDTA. I was thinking EDTA, but since people were writing EDDHA, I thought maybe I remembered it wrong. I got it from a hybdoponics supply place in Seattle before there were aquarium vendors selling it. It was back when making your own traces was just starting. At that time everyone was using Flourish, Dupla Drops, or something made by Kent Marine that isn't made any longer.


----------



## wet

I'm thinking it's EDTA, too. I recall DTPA was just getting popularized around late 2004/2005.

Just another fwiw: I had an old bag of CSM+B+Extra Fe (this was Greg Watson's old mix that raised the percentage of Fe in CSM+B from ~6.5% to ~10%) that, over the years, was kept out in sunlight or in a bag with holes for extended periods. Whenever I used it years later I worked with the assumption that the iron had long ago oxidized and would end up falling out of solution, and I could see more stuff settling everytime I made a solution as compared to newer stuff.

(ie: it's not too terrible to add to DTPA next time you purchase ferts. I'm also certain there's at least a few hobbyists -- barbarossa comes to mind -- who've bought DTPA in bulk and would probably trade enough to get you started.)


----------



## barbarossa4122

> (ie: it's not too terrible to add to DTPA next time you purchase ferts. I'm also certain there's at least a few hobbyists -- barbarossa comes to mind -- who've bought DTPA in bulk and would probably trade enough to get you started.)


I will


----------



## bsmith

So what's the timeline of Fe additives going bad. I have always been under the assumption that dry ferts were good for quite some time. The ferts in question are Ferrous Gluconate and 13% Fe chelate. Maybe CSM+b too.


----------



## Reaper Keeper

*whats the difference.......*

from this system of plant fert as compared with the PPS system described on the "other" forum (http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html)
Please don’t slam me for looking at both forums, I just get bored sometimes and it seems both have great info!
So I have been using the PPS system and things are ok, but I am ready to order more chemicals from GLA and I want to know (if anyone has compared) the two. I do not want someone to go look at the PPS and try and figure it out for me. It seems from reading between the two they are very similar, the largest difference I can see is the addition of the Metricide/flourish. 
I will pause here and await a response.
:smile:


----------



## Ben Belton

wet said:


> I'm thinking it's EDTA, too.


You're probably right. It has been in a Tupperware container for years, so it might not have oxidized as much, but I went ahead and ordered the other from GLA and will use it. I'm starting fresh with most everything else, so there's no reason to hang onto 8-10 year old iron I don't guess :icon_smil


----------



## sewingalot

For anyone interested, I've been using this long enough to say I have noticed quite a bit of improvement in my plants overall. However, I really can't say I notice much of a difference between this and CSM+B. Anyone else have long term experience?


----------



## Dempsey

I'm with you, Sara. I still need more time to make a good observation. I can tell you that I have had no problems and that everything still looks very healthy. Of course, I have not had any signs of deficiency either. So far, so good!


----------



## barbarossa4122

sewingalot said:


> For anyone interested, I've been using this long enough to say I have noticed quite a bit of improvement in my plants overall. However, I really can't say I notice much of a difference between this and CSM+B. Anyone else have long term experience?


Hi,

I did use DIY Tropica for about 6 wks and it did not work too well for my plants. I switched back to CSM + extra Fe solution and my plants came back to life. I am not saying the the DIY is not good but, for some reason did not work for me. I wish it did.
Btw, I dosed 20-30ml of DIY 3 times/week for a total of 60-90ml/week.


----------



## Dempsey

What size tank was it? I have been dosing 60ml a day on my 75 gallon and everything has been great. I started the daily micro dosing as Carlo(wet) suggested to see how that works for me. I just doubled the amounts in a 500ml container today so I will just have to dose 30ml a day. I have been reading more and more on micro uptake and have read that iron for one(along with other micros), is taken in by your plants really fast. So the daily micro dosing has been making allot more sense to me...

What I did this time was:

500ml container:
3/4tsp CSM+B
3/4tsp Millers(I added this instead of doubling CSM)
3/8tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate x2
1/16tsp MnSO4 x2
15ml of Excel

I chose to add both Millers and CSM to get the best of both instead of doubling on one. I know I am running a little rich but I have high lighting.

I would also add that after my WC on Sunday, I plan on dosing 60ml and then 30ml per day after...

Dose anyone see anything wrong with this?

Thinking about it, I'm not running rich enough. I will let you know what I add.


----------



## barbarossa4122

Dempsey said:


> What size tank was it? I have been dosing 60ml a day on my 75 gallon and everything has been great. I started the daily micro dosing as Carlo(wet) suggested to see how that works for me. I just doubled the amounts in a 500ml container today so I will just have to dose 30ml a day. I have been reading more and more on micro uptake and have read that iron for one(along with other micros), is taken in by your plants really fast. So the daily micro dosing has been making allot more sense to me...
> 
> What I did this time was:
> 
> 500ml container:
> 3/4tsp CSM+B
> 3/4tsp Millers(I added this instead of doubling CSM)
> 3/8tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate x2
> 1/16tsp MnSO4 x2
> 15ml of Excel
> 
> I chose to add both Millers and CSM to get the best of both instead of doubling on one. I know I am running a little rich but I have high lighting.
> 
> I would also add that after my WC on Sunday, I plan on dosing 60ml and then 30ml per day after...
> 
> Dose anyone see anything wrong with this?


55G tank. Thinking back, I think my dose was not enough, maybe.


----------



## Dempsey

Yeah, I wouldn't think that was enough. Thinking about it compaired to dry dosing EI, I might even add to my mix. More so on the CSM+B and or Miller's part. Not so much with Fe and MnSO4...


----------



## barbarossa4122

This is the recipe I am using now:

500 ml bottle:
I add 7 ml undiluted Metricide 14 (or 10-15ml Excel) to the DI water and let it settle for 10 min or so then I warmed up the water a bit.
I mixed 3 tsp CSM with 5 tsp Miller + 1.5 tsp DTPA + 1.5 tsp Fe Gluconate + 2 tsp MnSo4


----------



## Dempsey

barbarossa4122 said:


> This is the recipe I am using now:
> 
> 500 ml bottle:
> I add 7 ml undiluted Metricide 14 (or 10-15ml Excel) to the DI water and let it settle for 10 min or so then I warmed up the water a bit.
> I mixed 3 tsp CSM with 5 tsp Miller + 1.5 tsp DTPA + 1.5 tsp Fe Gluconate + 2 tsp MnSo4


Then dosing 20-30ml? That's actually pretty rich if you ask me... I'm not sure why you had issues... Maybe daily dosing would help? I don't know the relationships between all of the traces' but maybe more of one allows faster uptake of another? I know this is true for some but I am no expert. At all.. 2tsp of MnSO4? That seems like a lot to me but like I said, I'm no expert. What happened to your plants? loss of color?


----------



## barbarossa4122

Dempsey said:


> Then dosing 20-30ml? That's actually pretty rich if you ask me... I'm not sure why you had issues... Maybe daily dosing would help? I don't know the relationships between all of the traces' but maybe more of one allows faster uptake of another? I know this is true for some but I am no expert. At all.. 2tsp of MnSO4? That seems like a lot to me but like I said, I'm no expert. What happened to your plants? loss of color?


I dosed 20-30 of DIY Tropica not my recipe. With my recipe I dose 15ml 3 times/week, 45ml total/week.

Yep, my plants were losing color and just did not look right.


----------



## sewingalot

Funny you mention color. I've had nothing but trouble with my blyxa ever since dosing. It wasn't until I upped the amount to a daily dosing of 10 mL/55 gallons a day that it turned around. I'm still a little low on the micro dosing, so I am going to up it and see if I notice any difference. Thanks for the feedback, guys.


----------



## Jeff5614

I can't say I see any difference in my tank with the Tropica clone vs. Flourish so as far as I'm concerned it's a winner since it's so much cheaper than Flourish. I'm dosing 30ml three times per week in my 75 and, since we're on the subject of blyxa, mine has never been happier. Even with cutting my light to 1x54 it's growing like a weed.


----------



## Dempsey

Jeff5614 said:


> I can't say I see any difference in my tank with the Tropica clone vs. Flourish so as far as I'm concerned it's a winner since it's so much cheaper than Flourish. I'm dosing 30ml three times per week in my 75 and, since we're on the subject of blyxa, mine has never been happier. Even with cutting my light to 1x54 it's growing like a weed.


 
Jeff,

Now with your lights reduced, wouldn't your tank be concidered low light? At that point the demand for micros(all ferts) would go down. That being said, you're dosing would be fine. 

For me on the other hand, I received a 6x54watt T5HO fixture Christmas that replaced my 4x65watt CF fixture. I am running 4x54watt bulbs for 7hrs a day and they are about 10" from the water surface. I know that is high light so, I have had to increase the amounts that I dose. Even with all of that, I have not noticed anything bad at all either. I did notice a loss in color from some rotalas but that was due to running out of Fe. Once I received that from GLA and added it back to the mix, it was only a few days and the color was back.

So, I have been happy so far.  My blyxa is also growing like a weed. I think I might need to trim it but I don't want to! It has finally started looking really good in my tank! It has started to grow really fast though... That could be from this mix!


----------



## barbarossa4122

sewingalot said:


> Funny you mention color. I've had nothing but trouble with my blyxa ever since dosing. It wasn't until I upped the amount to a daily dosing of 10 mL/55 gallons a day that it turned around. I'm still a little low on the micro dosing, so I am going to up it and see if I notice any difference. Thanks for the feedback, guys.


I am just guessing but, dosing DIY Tropica has to be on the heavy side b/c it doesn't contain that much Iron. And, I like to overdose Iron


----------



## Jeff5614

Dempsey said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Now with your lights reduced, wouldn't your tank be concidered low light? At that point the demand for micros(all ferts) would go down. That being said, you're dosing would be fine.
> 
> For me on the other hand, I received a 6x54watt T5HO fixture Christmas that replaced my 4x65watt CF fixture. I am running 4x54watt bulbs for 7hrs a day and they are about 10" from the water surface. I know that is high light so, I have had to increase the amounts that I dose. Even with all of that, I have not noticed anything bad at all either. I did notice a loss in color from some rotalas but that was due to running out of Fe. Once I received that from GLA and added it back to the mix, it was only a few days and the color was back.
> 
> So, I have been happy so far.  My blyxa is also growing like a weed. I think I might need to trim it but I don't want to! It has finally started looking really good in my tank! It has started to grow really fast though... That could be from this mix!



If anyone had asked me in the past I'd say that 1x54 is low light, but based on Hoppy's PAR chart it's medium light so that's how I'm treating it. Not that it really matters what it's called as long as you get the results you're after.

I need to thin my blyxa also and have a small sale on SnS. It's getting that "pressed to the glass" look or as the good folks at ADA are calling it now a "perspective style" ( no one take offense, just having a little fun ).


----------



## Dempsey

Hmmm...... So what do you think about me lowering my lights and just running 2 bulbs? Think I will still be happy with the results?


----------



## Jeff5614

Dempsey said:


> Hmmm...... So what do you think about me lowering my lights and just running 2 bulbs? Think I will still be happy with the results?


Give it a try. You can always turn them back on.


----------



## sewingalot

barbarossa4122 said:


> I am just guessing but, dosing DIY Tropica has to be on the heavy side b/c it doesn't contain that much Iron. And, I like to overdose Iron


FYI- after just a few days of increasing my dosage (daily at 15 mL), I am seeing much better results. The blyxa is no longer a strange color and is a nice bronze, green again. Must have been too little.


----------



## wet

These user experiences and adjustments are great. Keep in mind that folks also moved their targets and frequency for TMG and that many found higher iron dosing beneficial. 

Only an update calculator-wise: 11% DTPA from Green Leaf Aquariums is now on http://calc.petalphile.com (Dempsey sent over a sample. Thanks Dempsey!)

Less noticeable/a back-end change is that http://ei.petalphile.com now uses MongoDB (aka NoSQL, aka faster) for its data-store.

Thanks!


----------



## Dempsey

Anytime Carlo! Glad I could help you help us!

For the record, between Sunday and today, some of my plants have really started showing more color! Really? 3 days? As you see, I have increase the amounts that I have been dosing(micro wise)... But yes. Yes. Yes. Already, I have noticed more color in reds and greens. That fast! Maybe it was just more Fe? I am not sure. I will play around a little more...


----------



## chad320

Clint are you dosing gluconate Fe as well? Sorry, I didnt read back though.


----------



## sewingalot

I believe it, Clint. Mine seemed to improve over night. It was on the 28th that I upped the dosing and by yesterday, the color was completely back to normal.


----------



## Dempsey

chad320 said:


> Clint are you dosing gluconate Fe as well? Sorry, I didnt read back though.


Here is my mix as of last minute this weekend.

500ml container

1 1/4tsp CSM
1 1/4tsp Millers
2/16tsp MnSO4
1tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate 
15ml Excel

I am dosing 30ml per day. I do have high lights. I still may be dosing rich but I will keep updating this thread. It is amazing how fast plants can change though! So far, with this mix, I am happy. I may need to lean back in the next few weeks but we will see...


----------



## Dempsey

WOW!!!! Typo!!! Read my post again. LOL I meant tsp..


----------



## Dempsey

sewingalot said:


> I believe it, Clint. Mine seemed to improve over night. It was on the 28th that I upped the dosing and by yesterday, the color was completely back to normal.


Just wait until the color gets even better after longer daily dosing, Sara! I am noticing more and more each day! I am loving it! So far... lol

I will keep playing with my dosing and see what I find. :thumbsup:


----------



## bsmith

People always underestimate the importance of micros. They are just like macros in respect to them being dosed in excess. It's always better to have more than not enough. And as far as all that mumbo jumbo concerning excess Fe causing certain types of algae. It's just that, mumbo jumbo!


----------



## Dempsey

bsmith said:


> People always underestimate the importance of micros. They are just like macros in respect to them being dosed in excess. It's always better to have more than not enough. And as far as all that mumbo jumbo concerning excess Fe causing certain types of algae. It's just that, mumbo jumbo!


I totally understand that! That wasn't my point.. This is just my first run at dosing micros daily, not every other day. I am not worried about overdosing at all. When I say I will be playing with the dosing, I mean I want to lean back slowly and see where "my" sweet spot it. Do I have to dose less amounts daily or more? Know what I mean? If I lean back and notice a negitive responce, I will dose more. And so on...


----------



## barbarossa4122

bsmith said:


> People always underestimate the importance of micros. They are just like macros in respect to them being dosed in excess. It's always better to have more than not enough. And as far as all that mumbo jumbo concerning excess Fe causing certain types of algae. It's just that, mumbo jumbo!


Agree


----------



## Ben Belton

I found Tropica Master Grow at Big Al's Online last night. Maybe you all knew this. I haven't seen it for sale in the US for years and years. I got a bottle. Thought it might be interesting to try before I went to Carlo's Special Brew to see how they compared. I doubt there will be any difference, but I thought it would be fun.

My tank has had a major setback and I've almost lost every plant I have, but its all fixed now. That said, I won't be able to compare Flourish to the stuff mentioned in this thread because I'm going to use up all my Flourish trying to revive everything. Plants definitely not at optimal conditions at the moment.


----------



## Hoppy

Ben Belton said:


> I found Tropica Master Grow at Big Al's Online last night. Maybe you all knew this. I haven't seen it for sale in the US for years and years. I got a bottle. Thought it might be interesting to try before I went to Carlo's Special Brew to see how they compared. I doubt there will be any difference, but I thought it would be fun.
> 
> My tank has had a major setback and I've almost lost every plant I have, but its all fixed now. That said, I won't be able to compare Flourish to the stuff mentioned in this thread because I'm going to use up all my Flourish trying to revive everything. Plants definitely not at optimal conditions at the moment.


I view a major setback as an excuse to redo the whole tank so it is better than ever before ( in my mind ). I hate trying to revive an existing tank after it has had a major problem. And, doing a tank over is very entertaining for me. Off subject, I know.


----------



## Dempsey

So, today I made a new mix and will start dosing on Sunday after the WC. I decided to lean back a little and see how that works. I am still doing the daily dosing and still have one more dose from the last mix that is for tomorrow. 

Here is the mix today:

500ml dosing container

1tsp CSM+B
1tsp Miller's
1/16tsp MnSO4
3/4tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate 
15ml Excel

It still may be a tad rich but we will see.

Dosing 30ml daily on my 75g


----------



## Dempsey

Any updates from you, Orlando? 

I have been using the mix from your OP on my low ligh tanks and they have been doing awesome! No mold either.

Dosing higher and daily in my high light tank with great results also!


----------



## sewingalot

I went back to csm+b. I wanted to see if my arcuata was melting because of the millers + iron. Sure enough, my ludwigia has not only stopped melting, but it is growing fast again. And my plants have their luster back. What was I doing wrong? I am 99% sure this was a screw up by me again.


----------



## hbosman

Dempsey said:


> Here is my mix as of last minute this weekend.
> 
> 500ml container
> 
> 1 1/4tsp CSM
> 1 1/4tsp Millers
> 2/16tsp MnSO4
> 1tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate
> 15ml Excel
> 
> I am dosing 30ml per day. I do have high lights. I still may be dosing rich but I will keep updating this thread. It is amazing how fast plants can change though! So far, with this mix, I am happy. I may need to lean back in the next few weeks but we will see...


Curious, why are you dosing Millers and CSM+B? I didn't notice Millers having something that CSM+B didn't have.


----------



## Dempsey

hbosman said:


> Curious, why are you dosing Millers and CSM+B? I didn't notice Millers having something that CSM+B didn't have.


Just because I have it and can dose it in lower amounts then CSM.


----------



## hbosman

Dempsey said:


> Just because I have it and can dose it in lower amounts then CSM.


Ahh, thanks just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.


----------



## Joe.1

Anyone have any update on this mix? I would like to know it is working for everyone else. Thanks.


----------



## wet

Hey Joe.1. If you don't get feedback but can get out to the LA/Hollywood border area (near Melrose and Highland), I'll give you a mix for a gallon's worth to 1/2lb (your pick) of The Good Stuff, on two conditions:

a) You post what you think about it, good or bad.

b) You stand in line at the PO to ship the (prepaid) 1lb of DTPA Fe I owe Dempsey for an earlier trade


----------



## snausage

Joe.1 said:


> Anyone have any update on this mix? I would like to know it is working for everyone else. Thanks.


I ordered a bottle of the real stuff and it's definitely a great trace mix. 

I'm going to try using miller's after I run out of the real mccoy and ADA step 2 so there's some basis for comparison.


----------



## eaf

I have rather strange experience with this mix... It's strange because even after matching TMG's contents almost in every position (including the Mg++ and Cu++ parts that this particular mix doesn't take into account), I still can't get the pearling that I get with TMG.

At first I mixed 6100mg of CSM+B, 870mg of MnSO4 and 3000mg of Fe EDTA (all bought from GLA) in 500mL of water and started dosing 8mL of this solution daily into my 90G. This was supposed to give me the same daily increase of Fe ppm as 16mL of TMG. I have small scales accurate to 0.1g.

If you do the math (assuming 80G of water in 90G tank), you'll see that with the DIY TMG I actually started dosing a little more of Fe: +0.04ppm daily compared to +0.037ppm of Fe in TMG. The daily increase of Mn++ was matched precisely: +0.021ppm. With other elements situation was different. E.g. dosing of Mo++ or Cu++ dropped 10 times as a result of the switch, and K+ dropped from +0.34ppm down to 0.

On the same day when I switched to this DIY TMG dosing, my plants stopped pearling. Just like that. Before that with TMG my Rotala Macranda, Rotala Gia Lai, Ludwigia Arcuata were all obviously pearling by the end of the day. With the DIY mix they stopped.

I let it stay like that for another day, then backed off and dosed again 8mL of TMG in the morning and 8mL at the peak of the light output. This time when I got home plants were pearling again.

I dose other things into the tank as well: +1ppm of NO3 daily (maintaining 10ppm by testing water weekly), +0.09ppm of Mg++, and +1.2ppm of K+ daily.

My first thought was that I dose insufficient amount of Mg++. Indeed, with TMG I was getting extra +0.2ppm of Mg++ per day. So, I increased my Mg++ dose to match what TMG was providing and tried DIY TMG again, hoping that the plants would pearl now. Nope, they didn't. The day I switched they stopped.

OK, I thought, DIY TMG has 10 times less of Cu++, so why don't I try dosing that... I didn't have CuSO4 handy that night, so I etched a piece of copper wire in H2O2+HCl, did the math and dosed +0.003ppm of Cu, like TMG was doing it for me. And again, no pearling the next day!

So, at this point I'm thinking that either TMG has some secret undisclosed components that my tap water and CSM+B both lack, or some of the disclosed components are delivered in a different form. Maybe the HEEDTA chelator in TMG maters (compared to EDTA in CSM+B). Maybe it's smth else.

Btw, to give more background about my setup, I have tap water with 5GH, 4KH, make 10% automated daily changes, ferts are dosed daily by 3 independent pumps (#1: K+Mg, #2: NO3, #3: Micro). CO2, pH 6.4 (if you check the CO2/pH chart you may think that I overdose CO2, but in fact, I don't, I know it from the 4KH drop-checker, which is green, so CO2 is at about 20ppm). Nutrafin Fe test says I have ~0.2ppm of Fe in the tank. When I first switched from TMG to CSM+B, all other dosing, lighting, CO2 or water changing regime remained the same. And still, the plant's reaction to the switch was quite obvious.

Today I'm adding double dose of DIY TMG and watching the plants. So far no response.

My water is missing smth that TMG barely supplies for one day. This "smth" is either quickly consumed by the plants or it drops out of the solution because e.g. chelators stop working. But why would they? pH is low, so even EDTA should be fine.


----------



## hbosman

Just curious why you don't does KH2PO4?


----------



## eaf

hbosman said:


> Just curious why you don't does KH2PO4?


I didn't see a need for it so far. Maybe I overfeed my fish, maybe I have enough in the tap water.


----------



## hbosman

eaf said:


> I didn't see a need for it so far. Maybe I overfeed my fish, maybe I have enough in the tap water.


If I don't dose 2 ppm kh2po4, I get green spot algae on the glass. That's with just 2 T5HO bulbs running. If I run all four then forget it, algae farm.


----------



## herns

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> I decided to give Carlo's recipe a try in a few tanks by mixing up some DIY Tropica Plant Nutrition. It took me a whole 5 minutes to do and only cost about
> $0.50 or less to make a 1000ML bottle of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Default DIY Micro Nutreint Mix
> This formula is based on Wets recipe. Wet has a very cool calculator if you want to check that out Im leaving a link to it.
> http://wet.biggiantnerds.com/ei/con_v_time.pl
> 
> This is supposed to be the best thing next to Tropica Master Gro.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Default
> I am also a Tropica Master Grow and Miller's MicroPlex fan. I approached this problem in looking at the major micronutrients (Fe and Mn) then using CSM+B and MnSO4 to clone Tropica (the best micronutrient mix I've ever used).
> 
> 
> 500mL opaque container
> 3063mg Plantex CSM+B (~ 3/4 tsp)
> 438mg MnSO4.H2O (~ 1/16 tsp)
> 1500mg FeDTPA 10% (~3/8 tsp)


What is* MnSO4.H2O*?


----------



## Aquaticz

Neat thread - You have inspired me to order up the ingredients - Thank you
Any consensuses on whether or not Plantex or Millers has better results ?
Just went to GLA site and he has 11% FeDTPA how does this change the recipe below?

3063mg Plantex CSM+B (~ 3/4 tsp)
438mg MnSO4.H2O (~ 1/16 tsp)
1500mg FeDTPA 10% (~3/8 tsp)
Fill the rest with DI water. Leave some space for some acid or glutaraldehyde if you want
Shake it up!


Is glutaraldehyde the same as excel?


----------



## Dempsey

Aquaticz said:


> Neat thread - You have inspired me to order up the ingredients - Thank you
> Any consensuses on whether or not Plantex or Millers has better results ?
> Just went to GLA site and he has 11% FeDTPA how does this change the recipe below?
> 
> 3063mg Plantex CSM+B (~ 3/4 tsp)
> 438mg MnSO4.H2O (~ 1/16 tsp)
> 1500mg FeDTPA 10% (~3/8 tsp)
> Fill the rest with DI water. Leave some space for some acid or glutaraldehyde if you want
> Shake it up!
> 
> 
> Is glutaraldehyde the same as excel?


I actually use a bit of both Miller's and CSM because I have both of them. I also use the 11% Fe instead of 10%. I increased my dosing amounts just because I have very high lights. I have been loving the results.

Excel is glutaraldehyde. I add 15ml into my 500ml batches.


----------



## Aquaticz

Thanks Clint 
I think i am ready to rock & roll. Do you channge the recipe at all for the 1% difference in the FE? 

I already purchased a gallon of CIDEX METRICIDE OMNICIDE 28-DAY STERILIZATION GALLON.

I am so tired of spending 30 bucks + on a jug of either & thanks to this site and folks like yourself I will no longer be doing that 
Thanks again


----------



## Dempsey

Aquaticz said:


> Thanks Clint
> . Do you change the recipe at all for the 1% difference in the FE?


Not at all. At least I don't. I dose higher amounts of Fe then lots of folks. I don't really see why it would matter that much... In any case, your plants will be getting the Fe they will need(depending on the demand. IE lights, co2, ect..).


----------



## JoraaÑ

A good member here send me some to try, I started on 25th May, he suggested me to dose 5ml per 50 gallon everyday..which I didn't follow since I have high light tank(??) with heavy plant load....Instead I dosed double. Its been only 5 days and color are gone as in Pale in reddish plant as 'Pantanal' Rotalas and others. Seems this stuff doesn't like softwater. I also read some where that a local member(NYC) was not impressed with this stuff.Switching back to my own TE starting today...


----------



## eaf

Joraan said:


> Switching back to my own TE starting today...


What's in your TE?


----------



## treetom

Where do you get the metered dosing bottles for this?


----------



## Booger

Does the extra iron cause any clouding issues?


----------



## Dempsey

treetom said:


> Where do you get the metered dosing bottles for this?


 
I got mine at GLA.


----------



## Dempsey

Booger said:


> Does the extra iron cause any clouding issues?


That all depends on how you are dosing. It has been a very long time since I have seen cloudy water from dosing Fe(my fault). Just don't dose to close with kh2po4.


----------



## HolyAngel

so.. im a bit confused here.. a few things:

1. What is the correct dosage here for this guys? CSM+B standard solution mix = 1 Tablespoon/500ml=3 teaspoons= 11.1 grams. Yet the first page here says to make it with only 3 grams of CSM+B... what? 

2. And Is it *MnSo4* or *MgSo4*? one is manganese(MN) and the other magnesium(MG), whats the difference or is there one? I've seen it a bit interchangeable on here and im wanting to be positive before I start making solutions here as i think i just bought mgso4 and not the mnso4...

3. Also the 13% iron chelate I have says to mix 1 Tablespoon/11.1grams per 500ml, not 1.5 grams per 500ml.. Whats the deal there?

Definitely appreciate any help you guys can give on clearing this up for me..


----------



## Ben Belton

I think the confusion is that some people are mixing their own flavor of traces. Adding more of this or less of that based on what they feel their plants need.

Mn and Mg are different. Again some people are feeling their plants are needing more of one than what is standard and some people feel their tanks need something different.

The idea is to start somewhere yourself and adjust as needed. All this above is what others have tired and/or suggest as modifications to the "standard" recipe to get the outcome they want.


----------



## Aquaticz

HolyAngel said:


> so.. im a bit confused here.. a few things:
> 
> 1. What is the correct dosage here for this guys? CSM+B standard solution mix = 1 Tablespoon/500ml=3 teaspoons= 11.1 grams. Yet the first page here says to make it with only 3 grams of CSM+B... what?
> 
> 2. And Is it *MnSo4* or *MgSo4*? one is manganese(MN) and the other magnesium(MG), whats the difference or is there one? I've seen it a bit interchangeable on here and im wanting to be positive before I start making solutions here as i think i just bought mgso4 and not the mnso4...
> 
> 3. Also the 13% iron chelate I have says to mix 1 Tablespoon/11.1grams per 500ml, not 1.5 grams per 500ml.. Whats the deal there?
> 
> Definitely appreciate any help you guys can give on clearing this up for me..


1. Good [censored][censored][censored][censored] original recipe “TWEAKED’ 500ml dosing container 1tsp CSM+B 1tsp Miller's 1/16tsp MnSO4 3/4tsp 11% DTPA Iron Chelate15ml Excel DOSE 30 ml FOR 75 GAL 
you an not weight it, the reeipe is based on volume

MnSo4 is the one to use 
Hope this helps you


----------



## HolyAngel

Hmm ok, well what to do with this pound of mgso4 I just got


----------



## audioaficionado

HolyAngel said:


> Hmm ok, well what to do with this pound of mgso4 I just got


Soak your feet in it. (Epsom salt) :icon_mrgr

So I'm considering using a combo mix like Dempsey/Clint did to get the full complementary spread of the micros.

Or should I just keep it simple and go with CSM+B & DTPA?

Any advantage of combining EDTA+DTPA together?


----------



## hbosman

audioaficionado said:


> Soak your feet in it. (Epsom salt) :icon_mrgr
> 
> So I'm considering using a combo mix like Dempsey/Clint did to get the full complementary spread of the micros.
> 
> Or should I just keep it simple and go with CSM+B & DTPA?
> 
> Any advantage of combining EDTA+DTPA together?


You would already have EDTA from the CSM+B. You might consider mixing 1 parts DTPA to 3 parts CSM+B. Just calculate for the Fe in ppm you want to dose.


----------



## audioaficionado

Ended up going with a 4:1 ratio as per Tom Barr's recommendation. Your's would also work just fine. The more I read up on dosing ferts, the more flexible I find the amounts that can be used. Apparently it's not the rocket science lots of people try and make it out to be.


----------



## Dempsey

audioaficionado said:


> Ended up going with a 4:1 ratio as per Tom Barr's recommendation. Your's would also work just fine. The more I read up on dosing ferts, the more flexible I find the amounts that can be used. Apparently it's not the rocket science lots of people try and make it out to be.



You hit the nail on the head!


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## wet

To add to audioaficionado and Dempsey's point:

All you're doing here with The Good Stuff is making an attempt to recreate/DIY a well-regarded (and expensive in some parts of the world) trace mix. 

If your old mix was better, *WHY* do you think that is? What was your old mix?

If you noticed no difference, what do you think about trace nutrients now? What's the mix you roll with each time?

If you like The Good Stuff, what do you think's going on?

Answers, tangents, etc are where I'd like to see us go. And that's on the community (and thanks for these responses here!), not manufacturers or nerds who post formulas on how to recreate stuff.


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## Dempsey

Bumping this thread back to life.

I am going to be making and dosing this with my new dosing schedule. I am going to dose the original batch on the first post, not my modded one a few back. I am going to go lean and see how this works.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

It's good stuff and cost only pennies!


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## Aquaticz

I love it (good stuff) and ave been using it daily for months. I also use metricide. I dose 4 set ups, one is more sensitive to the metricide and will slightly melt some plants. So I no longer add the metricide to the good stuff mix. This allows me better control. I am dosing quite a bit ( even in low- mid light tanks) 30 ml for 65 gallons or portion thereof. I think about dosing less but the cost is pretty minimal and I am happy with the results. I use both Millers & CMS+B. I used to use flourish but good stuff and the doseage work great for me especially when I concentrate on keeping good flow. I think it is always the conmbination of the things we do to our tanks


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Aquaticz said:


> I love it (good stuff) and ave been using it daily for months. I also use metricide. I dose 4 set ups, one is more sensitive to the metricide and will slightly melt some plants. So I no longer add the metricide to the good stuff mix. This allows me better control. I am dosing quite a bit ( even in low- mid light tanks) 30 ml for 65 gallons or portion thereof. I think about dosing less but the cost is pretty minimal and I am happy with the results. I use both Millers & CMS+B. I used to use flourish but good stuff and the doseage work great for me especially when I concentrate on keeping good flow. I think it is always the conmbination of the things we do to our tanks


 Thats good stuff to hear! Haha


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## Aquaticz

LOL... and you have all the ingredients with great customer service to boot


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Thanks Aquaticz. These recipes are to easy to pass up.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Im going to start a journal on some new tanks using this cost effective recipe. Literally only cost a few pennies to make a 1000ml mix


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## JasonG75

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Im going to start a journal on some new tanks using this code effective recipe. Literally only cost a few pennies to make a 1000ml mix


 
Wanna send me some !!!! lol I can do a journal as well.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

JasonG75 said:


> Wanna send me some !!!! lol I can do a journal as well.


I can mix any recipe you like. Shoot me a PM with your address and we can send you a premixed packet!


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## Aquaticz

I started a tank on 12-30
I dose 10-12 ml a day
To date with the help of my sweet wife 
We have never missed a day.
I am also going to a meet in about 2 weeks and hope to bring some good stuff and home made excel - metricide 14
There are so many people with tiny tanks they just do not want a bottle bigger than their tank....LOL


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Good to see its working for you


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## Ben Belton

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> Im going to start a journal on some new tanks using this cost effective recipe. Literally only cost a few pennies to make a 1000ml mix


I'm getting in late on this. Did you start the journal? Can you post a link. There are a few recipes batted around in this thread. Kinda wanted to settle down on one. The last time I sort of made something up from things that had been posted here.


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## Aquaticz

FWIW
for 2 liters
I mix
4 teaspoons of CMS +B
4 teaspoons of millers micro plex
1/2 teaspoon MNSO4
3 teaspoons 11% DTPA Iron Chelate
I have been doing this for many months along with metricide 14 and I am one happy camper on multiple tanks


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## [email protected]

Any body have some substitute for CMS+B ??
as this part of the world is just not possible to find 
Regards.
Alvid


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## Aquaticz

Millers micro plex


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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