# help with soil substrate



## nalu86 (Oct 19, 2010)

If you mineralize your soil before you put it in the tank, you can almost add fish right away if you have an established filter. But I still would wait couple of days to a week before you put fish in there., and watch your water parameters (Ammonia, Nitrite)


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Things can bump (water parameters) using dirt so I stock slowly after setting up a tank.
Never saw a cycle on the lower tank in this thread but have in others.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...bum/131940-stainless-2-story-56k-warning.html

Also used additions like clay on this tank too but thats in the setup information of the thread at the bottom of page #1.

Soil layer of 1.5 - 2" and a cap of 1" works well for me. 

Based on your question I would read a bit more before making the change.
Forewarned is forarmed.
That said I have no dirt tanks that I am unhappy with and set more up all the time it seems.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I like the addition of reptile coconut bark under my substrate, for it adds Co2 to the substrate.

I only used sand between dirt and top gravel when I used gravel larger than 5ml., for otherwise it would come up into the water.

Noticed that you asked JoeDizzleMPLS about black substrate. A cheap version is Black Diamond Blasting sand. Found some at Northern Tool & Equipment Co. dbLbogie got a big bag for $4.99 from a Tractor Supply Co.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Hilde said:


> I like the addition of reptile coconut bark under my substrate, for it adds Co2 to the substrate.
> 
> I only used sand between dirt and top gravel when I used gravel larger than 5ml., for otherwise it would come up into the water.
> 
> Noticed that you asked JoeDizzleMPLS about black substrate. A cheap version is Black Diamond Blasting sand. Found some at Northern Tool & Equipment Co. dbLbogie got a big bag for $4.99 from a Tractor Supply Co.


Thanks. I think I may have decided against the soil. I think I am going to use Turface Black if I can find it due to it's high CEC. I asked about soil because I felt I needed something softer under the Turface so the roots might spread easier, but after talking to jetajockey (all day I might add, what a nice guy!!) I think plain old Turface will be best for me.

I appreciate everybody's help


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> I think I am going to use Turface Black if I can find it due to it's high CEC.


Didn't know that. What type of store are you getting it from and how much does it cost? 

Read the red bag kitty litter has high CEC.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Hilde said:


> I like the addition of reptile coconut bark under my substrate, for it adds Co2 to the substrate.
> 
> I only used sand between dirt and top gravel when I used gravel larger than 5ml., for otherwise it would come up into the water.
> 
> Noticed that you asked JoeDizzleMPLS about black substrate. A cheap version is Black Diamond Blasting sand. Found some at Northern Tool & Equipment Co. dbLbogie got a big bag for $4.99 from a Tractor Supply Co.


Coconut bark I'm guessing is an added neutral source of organic materials to provide carbon via the biological breakdown preformed by Heterotrophic Bacteria. 
I've recently tried a sand tank using the black beauty blasting media and so far (3+months) see it working OK and can't imagine anything 'blacker' looking for a base. This is my test tank.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/143352-another-npt-ds-dirt-tank.html


tulip55555 said:


> Thanks. I think I may have decided against the soil. I think I am going to use Turface Black if I can find it due to it's high CEC. I asked about soil because I felt I needed something softer under the Turface so the roots might spread easier, but after talking to jetajockey (all day I might add, what a nice guy!!) I think plain old Turface will be best for me.
> 
> I appreciate everybody's help


Using soils is not to provide 'softer material' but to fertilize the plants giving them the raw materials they need to grow. Turface like the more costly Flourite has a high CEC but that is the ability to exchange ions not support plant growth. Turface is kiln fired at a lower temperature then Flourite and has less density so it's 'lighter'. The weight in the grain matters not to the plants but it does move easier. 
Posting this just to make sure it's clear to the OP that Turface and it's higher CEC in and of itself provides nothing to promote plant growth. Nutrients will need to be provided to maintain plant growth either root tab supplement or water column dosing (preferred is both) supporting the plant growth all around.

With dirt in the substrate I can maintain a tank adding nothing else once established. I have a 2 year old system that's proven this to me.

HTH


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

wkndracer-I do believe that soil is probably best, I am new to scaping so I know there will be a lot of rearranging. I think the soil is a bit above my level of experience for now. 
That black diamond is super black. Since it is sand there is probably no CEC??? 
Also aware that nutrients will have to be provided with the Turface, but the cost compared to Fluorite is a huge saving. I am having a problem finding Turface or SMS, so I might end up going with fluorite.

Hilde-kitty litter is the same material, some is even made by the same company that makes SMS (OilDri), but I think it is fired at a lower temp and less stable than SMS or Turface.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

good research roud:
and agree with what your posting back. 

Testing oil dry here last year soaking it in a glass of water after about a week I was able to crush most of it between my fingers so the feeling was it would break down in the tank over time like Florabase does.

The gains in stability and plant growth with the CEC I can't speak to the benefits with and without as I always have had it. Many post beautiful tanks with sand alone and water dosing so without the CEC they do very well, just haven't tried it here until now.

Look forward to your tank posts as it looks to be thoughtfully setup on making the changes.


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## mattycakesclark (Jun 11, 2010)

I had awesome amazing root growth with Turface, where one crypt's roots took up almost half of my 20T when I pulled it. I used a lot of root tabs though (Rootmedic). When I stopped using the tabs, the growth slowed noticeably even with EI.

That being said, I might be making the dirt jump also, to save time and try another approach. Maybe turface can be incorporated in the dirt to sequester nutrients??


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

mattycakesclark said:


> I had awesome amazing root growth with Turface, where one crypt's roots took up almost half of my 20T when I pulled it. I used a lot of root tabs though (Rootmedic). When I stopped using the tabs, the growth slowed noticeably even with EI.
> 
> That being said, I might be making the dirt jump also, to save time and try another approach. Maybe turface can be incorporated in the dirt to sequester nutrients??


I wanted to use Turface, but I can't find it anywhere near me.
As far as dirt and Turface I think you could cap the dirt with the Turface.


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## mattycakesclark (Jun 11, 2010)

Was thinking of going sand, but that might work, got plenty left over. 

Do you have a John Deere Landscaping supply? That's where I got mine

edit: I found one 36 miles from Warren

Branch	705
Address	1970 S Van **** Rd
Appleton WI 54914 USA
Phone	920-733-2298
Fax	920-733-2375
Email	[email protected]
Distance	Approx. 36 Miles

More distributers: http://www.turface.com/distributors/state/


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

mattycakesclark said:


> Was thinking of going sand, but that might work, got plenty left over.
> 
> Do you have a John Deere Landscaping supply? That's where I got mine
> 
> ...


I called John Deere/Lesco, local construction companies, athletic field material suppliers, garden centers, hydroponic stores (because I guess people use it for bonsai trees and orchids)

That one you posted is in Wisconsin. Wierd though because I live near Van **** Road in Warren. Thank you so much for the effort :biggrin::biggrin:

The only distributors listed on the Turface site that was near me was the John Deere. I even checked for Diamond Dry and Pro's Choice, also just asked places if they carry any generic calcinated clay.

I do have a new thread asking if anyone knows where to get it, but I need an exact location where someone knows it is sold. Just because I have called EVERYWHERE, so I really don't need suggestions on where to call. I hope that doesn't sound snarky, it's just futile to suggest places to call since I have called everything near me.

If I can't find it I will just have to pay an arm and leg and one of my kid's eyeballs for Fluorite. 

So I guess I don't need help with soil substrate anymore. I just really need help finding Turface/SMS/Diamond Dry/any calcinated clay in GRAY or BLACK.

Thanks again mattycakes.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Some use oil dry, which has a similar color. That is the oil dry in automotive dept. Don't know if it is safe for fish. Perhaps you could start a thread to see if any use it with success.

Cheapest substrate is top soil topped with river sand. I used Scott's top soil and sifted it before wetting it. Got it at Wal-mart. River sand I got for $3 a big bag at landscaper co. Read that True Value hardware store has top soil with very little particles in it. This is what is called El Natural way


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

The oil dri is safe, but the color is very light. It works the same as the Turface, etc. $4 for 50lbs at Walmart for anyone interested. It just isn't the color that I want 
I wish I could do soil, but I am not an experienced scaper and I know I will be moving stuff a lot to get it how I want. I'm sure I would just make a big muddy mess of my tank. I will DEFINITELY use it in my next tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> I wish I could do soil, but I am not an experienced scaper and I know I will be moving stuff a lot to get it how I want. I'm sure I would just make a big muddy mess of my tank. I will DEFINITELY use it in my next tank.


I have been using soil. I once move the soil up one side. Never have a problem with it. Only time I had a problem with it was when I had put kitty litter in it. Then when I used play sand and didn't rinse it well I had a sand storm. 

I don't see it mentioned for what size tank is this?


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Hilde- It's a 40 gallon tank. 
Since I can't find the turface I have decided to go with Fluorite. So now my dilemma is regular fluorite or fluorite black sand. The only reason for the sand option is that I have kuhli loaches and I've read that Fluorite is not good for fish with barbels. I did submit a question to Seachem about it, and of course they say it is safe.
So if anyone has any opinions about regular Fluorite vs Fluorite sand for fish with barbels feel free to leave a comment 
Thanks


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> The only reason for the sand option is that I have kuhli loaches and I've read that Fluorite is not good for fish with barbels.
> Thanks


Hoppy said," The grain size of fluorite sand is very small, so small I doubt that many of the grains are as big as one mm." Thus they would probably like it better that the regular fluorite.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Awesome. Thanks.
I also wonder about how well the sand holds plants down.
More importantly- what the CEC is of the sand. I can't seem to find that anywhere. The nutrient level between regular Fluorite and Sand is very different, so I am very curious about the CEC difference. That is, if there is any difference in CEC since the sand is also fracted clay and I'm sure the sand is just pulverized regular Fluorite or the bi-product of the production of Fluorite.


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## Coursair (Apr 16, 2011)

tulip55555 said:


> Awesome. Thanks.
> I also wonder about how well the sand holds plants down.
> More importantly- what the CEC is of the sand. I can't seem to find that anywhere. The nutrient level between regular Fluorite and Sand is very different, so I am very curious about the CEC difference. That is, if there is any difference in CEC since the sand is also fracted clay and I'm sure the sand is just pulverized regular Fluorite or the bi-product of the production of Fluorite.


I'm using Flourite black sand in one of my tanks and it is really easy to plant stuff in. Holds plants just fine. 

The other question ?? No idea, sorry.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Coursair said:


> I'm using Flourite black sand in one of my tanks and it is really easy to plant stuff in. Holds plants just fine.
> 
> The other question ?? No idea, sorry.


Thanks :icon_smil


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Just to clarify - when people here are talking about 'dirt' tanks they are talking about NPT style potting soil/mix capped with a second substrate (sand, some high CEC substrate, etc.) right?

Or does it refer to Mineralized Top Soil?


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## wespastor (Dec 20, 2009)

tulip55555 said:


> I wanted to use Turface, but I can't find it anywhere near me.
> As far as dirt and Turface I think you could cap the dirt with the Turface.


Look for a light weight concrete aggregate called haydite it is the same stuff as turface. Once you find source you will need to ask if they have size "H" that is the horticultural use size and is perfect for use in aquaria, Terraria, Rapariums and the like.


Sorry for highjacking just wanted to get this information out there.

Best wishes,
wes


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

madness said:


> Just to clarify - when people here are talking about 'dirt' tanks they are talking about NPT style potting soil/mix capped with a second substrate (sand, some high CEC substrate, etc.) right?
> 
> Or does it refer to Mineralized Top Soil?


I think most people here use MTS. But I think "dirt" could refer to either method.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

What about soilmaster select substrate? It comes in charcoal and red.

Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil (SAPS) and Turface (Both products of the Profile Company) are the same thing and are made from Illite and Fuller's Earth. Soilmaster (Produced by the Oil-Dri corporation) is very similar to these two but is made from montmorillonite clay. Both Soilmaster and Turface/SAPS are called "calcined clays".


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Hilde said:


> What about soilmaster select substrate? It comes in charcoal and red.
> 
> Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil (SAPS) and Turface (Both products of the Profile Company) are the same thing and are made from Illite and Fuller's Earth. Soilmaster (Produced by the Oil-Dri corporation) is very similar to these two but is made from montmorillonite clay. Both Soilmaster and Turface/SAPS are called "calcined clays".


I know, but I can't find them anywhere near me or online. I found one possibility and I am waiting for them to respond to my email from this morning. It is a company that sells Pro's Choice, but idk if they ship the stuff or what.
What's this you say about SAPS?? I did not know it too was calcinated clay. Veeery interesting...I will have to check that out in the A.M.
Wes also told me about haydite, but I'll have to do a bit more research.

Thank you both.


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

careful how deep you make the substrate overall, i'm cleaning up after my 3 inch mistake using organic soil and pfs, lets just say I noticed a loss in fish, and now I found out why, loads of black in the sand that I couldnt see under plants, so just saying be careful, also my room is smelly right now as im doing the tear down


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## horst (Aug 18, 2011)

I've been following the threads for some time and conclude one thing that (a) putting potting soil a.k.a walstad method and (b) putting clay on top causes the whole sustrate to be smelly after a few months. How could this be??!

Then I chanced upon an old geezer by the name of kipper and he told me the whole plant substrate thing. He said the smelly problem is because the whole thing is rotting down there owing to lack of oxygen. Then he added, with no oxygen how do you get the plant roots to breathe?. The plant will soon die. So I asked how to get the oxygen into the plant.

He said just put a 1" laterite soil over a substrate heater. Cover it ontop with silica soil for the next 2". Substrate heater??. He said it is to help move water column into the laterite layer to promote oxygenation. Laterite is also used as a catalyst to exchange nutrients.

I've tried it and it really works. There is no smelly soil!!. Plants live longer and there is no need to tear down.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

horst said:


> . Then he added, with no oxygen how do you get the plant roots to breathe?. The plant will soon die. So I asked how to get the oxygen into the plant.


Plants will transport oxygen through the roots into the substrate.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

horst said:


> I've been following the threads for some time and conclude
> a putting potting soil a.k.a walstad method
> b putting clay on top causes the whole sustrate to be smelly after a few months.


Wrong! Wrong!
Idea of dirt in a tank has been introduced by other people than Walstad.

I have had dirt in my tank capped with sand for at least a year without the smelly egg problem occurring. My dirt has some sand and cactus potting mix adding in from previous experiments. 

Here is some info I gathered on the subject: 
Build up of detritus in dead spots can cause pockets of dangerous levels of hydrogen sulfide, which causes the egg odor. 

 Hydrogen sulphide ( H2S) is in all soils. Plants will release O2 into the soil to help this process. If you have a section of your aquarium that is prone to H2S then planting an emergent plant there should cure your problems. An emergent plant will have good O2 reserves and grow its roots quickly

I think I read that turface was being replaced by soilmaster. Thus googled it and found the info here. Perhaps it would be easier and economical to use something with high CEC and then cap it with 1/2 in sand. Then for esthetics cover it with black gravel. First you would put the black gravel around the edges of the tank to hide the other substrate.
​


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

shrimpNewbie said:


> careful how deep you make the substrate overall, i'm cleaning up after my 3 inch mistake using organic soil and pfs, lets just say I noticed a loss in fish, and now I found out why, loads of black in the sand that I couldnt see under plants, so just saying be careful, also my room is smelly right now as im doing the tear down


Maybe because you used organic soil. When people do mineralized soil I think they work to get the organics out. I've grown houseplants for years and I can tell you that a bag of soil will get moldy really quick especially in the bag with no light. But even In a potted plant that is constantly moist with not much or no sun the top will also mold over. I don't think the same is true for inorganic soil.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Using natural soil, this reads to mean organic content completely intact starting the tank with, Scott's, MG, or dirt from your back yard. Maintain at most 2" of soil depth starting out with 1" of capping material covering it for a total of three inches. Several tanks done this way and yet to have any problems with the substrate.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Hilde said:


> I think I read that turface was being replaced by soilmaster. Thus googled it and found the info here. Perhaps it would be easier and economical to use something with high CEC and then cap it with 1/2 in sand. Then for esthetics cover it with black gravel. First you would put the black gravel around the edges of the tank to hide the other substrate.
> [/COLOR][/LEFT]


That link was VERY helpful!! I called OilDri/Pro's Choice and they will be sending some samples so I can check out grain size and color. He also gave me a number to someone locally that sells it, but I had to leave a voicemail message for that guy.
My next dilemma is that the only thing they have in grey they describe as "sandy" with a grain size of .25-.75mm. So I am worried it might be too messy and compact easily.
If anyone is interested in samples the number is 800.648.1166 and the guys name was Kevin. He can give you a local distributor and send samples. I also have a pdf that I could send if anyone wants to see the Pro's Choice product line complete with pictures of the colors and specs on grain size.

THANKS AGAIN HILDE. I thought I did all the searching I could do, but apparently you are much more thorough than I. I really appreciate your help!!


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> My next dilemma is that the only thing they have in grey they describe as "sandy" with a grain size of .25-.75mm. So I am worried it might be too messy and compact easily.
> 
> THANKS AGAIN HILDE. I thought I did all the searching I could do, but apparently you are much more thorough than I.


I would put some reptile coconut bark under it and then top with substrate. Works for my 29g. Didn't do it in the 10 g and can see many black areas.

Your welcome. It only took me a few minutes to find the info. I just went at a different angle.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

What do you mean "black areas"??


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## horst (Aug 18, 2011)

nonconductive said:


> Plants will transport oxygen through the roots into the substrate.


Easier said than that! But how is the root going to transport oxygen when there is none in the rotting anerobic layer?


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## horst (Aug 18, 2011)

Hilde said:


> Wrong! Wrong!
> Idea of dirt in a tank has been introduced by other people than Walstad.
> 
> I have had dirt in my tank capped with sand for at least a year without the smelly egg problem occurring. My dirt has some sand and cactus potting mix adding in from previous experiments.
> ...


Hilde you are right about putting potting soil / dirt / kitty litter into tanks has been long advocated by others. Walstad on the other hand advocates a very high organic content of peat which promotes H2S in anerobic enviroment, hence the rotten egg smell. Other dirt such as cactus mix have less organic content. This is why most base soils promoted by ADA, soilmaster and the rest has very low organic content but high in inorganic content (N,P,K) to promote plant growth and to prevent H2S. Still at the end of 1 year you will stil see dead spots, plant not thriving etc.

Hilde, roots don't give out oxygen. I remembered this when I was sitting for my biology exams. It's the leaf that takes in CO2 and gives out O2. Now you see why there are tiny O2 bubbles from leaves that delights alot of planted tank fans? So putting an emerging plant to "oxygenise" a dead spot is factually incorrect.

So the mystery that all planted tank fans out there have been trying to solve - dead spots / black areas / rotten egg, sustained plant growth etc. cannot be achieved without a constant flow of oxygenated water and nutirients into the root layer.


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

umm...healthy roots pump PLENTY of oxygen into soils

simple experiment here...read the abstract 
http://www.jstor.org/pss/2430192


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## horst (Aug 18, 2011)

Optix said:


> umm...healthy roots pump PLENTY of oxygen into soils
> 
> simple experiment here...read the abstract
> http://www.jstor.org/pss/2430192


That experiment was the basis of hydroponics for emerged plants (i.e, plants grown out of the water). This study was later debunked owing to low crop yields. In modern hydroponics, the roots are never fully submerged to ensure clean take-up of oxygen.

Why this study was debukned? Well, if the hypothesis was true that roots pump plenty of oxygen, then there will be aerobic (oxygen) decomposition- and no rotten egg smell. The rotten egg smell is due to anerobic (non-oxygen) environment.


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

horst said:


> Easier said than that! But how is the root going to transport oxygen when there is none in the rotting anerobic layer?


my tank went anerobic after a year because i had removed all the plants. replaced them with others some time later and its no longer anerobic.

oxygen is moved from the leaves to the root system.


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

horst said:


> That experiment was the basis of hydroponics for emerged plants (i.e, plants grown out of the water). This study was later debunked owing to low crop yields. In modern hydroponics, the roots are never fully submerged to ensure clean take-up of oxygen.
> 
> Why this study was debukned? Well, if the hypothesis was true that roots pump plenty of oxygen, then there will be aerobic (oxygen) decomposition- and no rotten egg smell. The rotten egg smell is due to anerobic (non-oxygen) environment.


that doesnt make sense tho

if the roots spread easily through anaerobic zones (addressed in the experiment) and bring oxygen WITH them (also addressed in teh experiment)...the anaerobic zones will gradually disappear as the plants grow and the roots spread

if you start with a modest supply of plants in a soil tank, it will happen faster than if you start with a deficit of plants...as the roots spread, anaerobic pockets disappear...which is why we have plenty of examples of beautful and lush, soil based tanks without the rotten egg smell


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

Optix said:


> that makes no sense
> 
> if the roots spread easily through anaerobic zones and bring oxygen WITH them...the anaerobic zones will gradually disappear as the plants grow and the roots spread


my tank is a great example of this.


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

boo...caught me before the edit to sound less "confrontational"

also, another hole in the train of thought...bacteria convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate in oxygen rich environment

in anoxic conditions...another bacteria forms that actually converts nitrAte BACK into nitrIte because the system needs that bound up oxygen. if this were to happen in our tanks, we would have a perpetually cycling tank that fish could not possibly survive in...

tho Ive never tested, I dont think you could have an organic soil substrate with no plants and keep fish in your tank...it would initially cycle and then quickly rebound to a nitrIte death pool...but with the plants there to add more oxygen and readily remove the ammonia and nitrAte...its not an issue


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## nonconductive (Jan 29, 2010)

a quote from Tom Barr:

"Where do you think aquatic grow in natural systems? The soils there are very reductive, organic loading is intense. You can find plants in virtually every type of sediment redox level. Quite well."

if you go to my local ponds you will find plants THRIVING in stinky, nasty anerobic soil.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> What do you mean "black areas"??


My substrate is brown river sand in 10G quarantine tank. I use to see a lot of areas that the sand was black. A few months ago added plants to it. Just noticed today that I only have black sand on the sides.

Seems we have accidentally hijacked your tread on turface. Someone should start a new thread on gases from substrate. Not all gas released from substrate is bad. When it occurs it means growth is occurring under the substrate.


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## gnod (Mar 24, 2011)

so if i mix sand and gravel...sand will go towards the bottom? :-/


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

ya

Brazil nut phenomenon


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Optix said:


> ya
> 
> Brazil nut phenomenon


Brazil nut what?? :icon_smil


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

I just spoke with my last best hope of finding turface, et al locally or having it shipped cost effectively.
I must be destined to pay top dollar for whatever I use as substrate. I started to look for black PFS, I'm actually told it doesn't exist. They don't make 3M color quartz anymore. Blasting sand is coal slag, which I doubt would be good aquarium substrate. Sooooo, I am going with Fluorite Black Sand period exclamation point My head is swimming with specs, pros and cons. I'm gonna stick with something made for the planted aquarium and not worry about unwanted chemical processes or my kuhli loaches being hurt by a poor choice/texture. 
Thanks for all the help. Feel free to continue the conversation about sand and anaerobic bacteria, etc. It's very interesting


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

if you lived closer I have a contact that owns a quatrz quarry and he sells me the exact product that 3m named colorquartz, as his family sold 3m the sand, very cheap too, last batch I bought was only $20 for 53 pounds of black t grade, not sure if he would ship but i'm sure you could ask, if you change your mind i'll send you his number


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

tulip55555 said:


> I just spoke with my last best hope of finding turface, et al locally or having it shipped cost effectively.
> I must be destined to pay top dollar for whatever I use as substrate. I started to look for black PFS, I'm actually told it doesn't exist. They don't make 3M color quartz anymore.* Blasting sand is coal slag, which I doubt would be good aquarium substrate.* Sooooo, I am going with Fluorite Black Sand period exclamation point My head is swimming with specs, pros and cons. I'm gonna stick with something made for the planted aquarium and not worry about unwanted chemical processes or my kuhli loaches being hurt by a poor choice/texture.
> Thanks for all the help. Feel free to continue the conversation about sand and anaerobic bacteria, etc. It's very interesting


wrong, its inert (same nutritional value as sand)...so with a good fertilizer regimen you can have excellent results...i cap my soil tank with it


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

shrimpNewbie said:


> if you lived closer I have a contact that owns a quatrz quarry and he sells me the exact product that 3m named colorquartz, as his family sold 3m the sand, very cheap too, last batch I bought was only $20 for 53 pounds of black t grade, not sure if he would ship but i'm sure you could ask, if you change your mind i'll send you his number


Please PM his number. It's worth a shot. Thanks



Optix said:


> wrong, its inert (same nutritional value as sand)...so with a good fertilizer regimen you can have excellent results...i cap my soil tank with it


Cool. Do you know if it has any cation exchange capacity? I'm really wanting something a bit better than regular sand, that's why I am going putting so much effort into finding options.



Optix said:


> wrong, its inert (same nutritional value as sand)...so with a good fertilizer regimen you can have excellent results...i cap my soil tank with it


What grain size should I look for? it comes in medium 20-40 and fine 30-60. I have no idea what that means. I found 30-60 online for $4.99/50 lbs, but shipping is $30 lmao. Still cheaper than Fluorite, but is that the right grit?


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

So sorry your having such drama finding safe materials!
Thought for sure the lead on Pro League would work out.

Blasting sand (Black beauty) is coal slag, which DOES make a good aquarium substrate.
Although it is inert meaning no CEC I consider being inert to be non threatening for my critters.

>4 months in tank with it and no issues shown by my Cory.










Soil in my tank but wanting to stay away from using dirt starting out learning how to scape you're tanks using root tabs works fine.


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

i have the 30-60 in my tank...I wish that it was a little coarser tho...but Ive grown just about everything in it at one time or another...from a THICK HC carpet to THICK glosso carpet to HUGE A. swords to stopped before it got thick because didnt like the look dwarf sag carpet

Im working on a DHG carpet now...I do an inch of Miracle grow Organic choice potting soil ...let it dry out completely....cap with an inch of black diamond grit (I got 50# for $7 at local Tractor Supply [they ordered it for me because they didnt have it in stock])...get it wet and plant...wait 2 wks for plants to establish and then fill w/ water (I dont do the MTS step anymore - it usually stinks for less than 3 days but its not in a main room or anything so no big problem)...50% water changes for 2 wks then weekly 25% water changes

it takes about a month for my tank to cycle tho from first fill...my ammonia and nitrIte readings go ridiculously high tho

if you do the soil w/ cap tho...once you decide on an aquascape, youre pretty much set...no major overhauls or reworks for the tank...tho after some time, the soil is water logged and doesnt cloud your water..youll make a mess if you move things

only real "controversy" that comes from using coal slag is that its designed for sand blasting...so the particles are sharp (by design)

some peopel say that it mutilates their bottom feeder fish (specifically cories) others say they have had no problem

...I dont keep cories so Ive never had an issue in ~2 yrs of using it


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Drama indeed. The Pro's Choice guy was really nice and he had 2 guys in Michigan call me, but they are on the other side of the state and only ship pallets. One guy suggested that I buy a pallet and repackage it for use in aquaria. Actually not a bad idea considering how many threads I have come across for people looking for this stuff.
As far as the black beauty...do you know if 30-60 is too fine, causing filter problems??


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Optix said:


> i have the 30-60 in my tank...I wish that it was a little coarser tho...but Ive grown just about everything in it at one time or another...from a THICK HC carpet to THICK glosso carpet to HUGE A. swords to stopped before it got thick because didnt like the look dwarf sag carpet
> 
> Im working on a DHG carpet now...I do an inch of Miracle grow Organic choice potting soil ...let it dry out completely....cap with an inch of black diamond grit (I got 50# for $7 at local Tractor Supply [they ordered it for me because they didnt have it in stock])...get it wet and plant...wait 2 wks for plants to establish and then fill w/ water (I dont do the MTS step anymore - it usually stinks for less than 3 days but its not in a main room or anything so no big problem)...50% water changes for 2 wks then weekly 25% water changes
> 
> ...


That's the thing...I know I'll be moving plants so i don't want to use dirt...YET. i will eventually though. 
I will keep looking for the 20-40 then.
Thanks


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

haha you can get 10 thousand opinions on most topics it seems.

The BB I have is in 100lb bags and no grade markings :icon_sad:
Grain size is very close to pool filter sand as I've got both here and in hand they look the same size wise, one glossy black and the other bright white.

Optix's post regarding Miracle Grow Organic Choice Potting Soil gave me a chuckle as I would advice along the same lines to someone new to using it but without the settling period being so long. My first tank using MGOCPS was set with 1" of soil, it was the worst 'behaving' starting out and the NH3/NH4 and NO2 spikes only lasted two weeks. The tanks setup this year with 2" of MG, sand and Flourtite never cycled. Parameters stayed steady right through safe for fish. The second one with 1.5" of MG and the BB cap did the same thing.

I guess what I'm posting is that using a dirt layer while it isn't completely predictable is not as bad as some make it out to be. Also other than posting more photo's of the fish I have living without injury over this material I don't know what more I can add to the discussion. I have Cory, Gold Dojo, Clown and Kuhli's in my tanks and all have whiskers LOL.

You're doing a great job at all the research in advance of filling you're tank. Making the changes should go very well for you and your pets. 
Water column dosing and / or adding the root tab ferts I believe you will have a nice tank.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> That's the thing...I know I'll be moving plants so i don't want to use dirt...YET. i will eventually though.


I have always used dirt. Use Scott's top soil and don't get nitrite spikes. When I began the 29gallon I moved plants and substrate. I had a little cloud for 2 days. Cleared it by vacuuming and doing a water change afterwards. Also used Bioclear by Nutrifin. 

Main thing I have had a problem with was play sand. Dealing with a drought I only rinsed the sand 1x. Has a sand storm in the tank for a month.


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

wkndracer-sorry if I've asked this already, but do you have your kuhlis on fluorite? and is it as sharp as I've read? Mine can't burrow in my gravel and aside from improving conditions for my plants I really want to give them something they can borrow through.

hilde-aside from moving plants I don't completely understand the processes that occur with soil. also, since this isn't a new setup, I have fish in this tank that I can only move temporarily while things settle. the potential for parameter changes with organic soil is too great. I think my next tank will be a dry start, but there's a lot more I need to learn first.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

tulip55555 said:


> Mine can't burrow in my gravel.
> 
> This isn't a new setup, I have fish in this tank


For the kullies you could remove some of the gravel in a area for them and put sand down. Easiest to get it in a particular spot by putting the sand in a sock. 

So you are planning to change the substrate in an established tank?
How about a pic of the tank?


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## tulip55555 (May 14, 2011)

Yeah, I was thinking about that. Even if I go with some sort of gravel I was going to do a sand playground for the kuhlis.

I will post some pics later.


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