# Nails in your substrate? What??



## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok, this is another thing that has been puzzleing me for a long time and figured I'd get it out now.

I have read many things about people putting a couple of nails under their substrate. I guess this adds iron to the tank?

Can someone elaborate more on this? Harmfull to fish or inverts (shrimp).

Just can't imagine doing this.

Anyone out here do?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Rust is iron oxide. Probably not in the right form for plants to use.


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## MrMoneybags (Apr 13, 2010)

plants probably cant use the rust b/c its not soluble unless your pH is well below 5 or [email protected] point most of your plants/fish will probably be dead unless you have [aquatic] blueberries :hihi:


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## boringname (Nov 11, 2010)

I never heard of nails but I've heard of washers. Your supposed to put them down first and then put a thick enough layer of substrate on top that bacteria will anaerobically convert the iron into something usable by plants. Always wanted to know if it works since its obviously inexpensive.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Unless one specifically purchases iron washers, which are available, or stainless steel - the bright ones are zinc (dull finish) or cadmium (shiny) plated.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I'll have to go through my notes again and find these articles. I didn't see mention of the washers, but definately saw them mention putting nails under one of the layers that was used.


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## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

james0816 said:


> I'll have to go through my notes again and find these articles. I didn't see mention of the washers, but definately saw them mention putting nails under one of the layers that was used.


You'll see a lot of mention about putting iron nails/screws/bits into the bottom of gravel/hydroton beds in aquaponic forums b/c the anaerobic conditions/bacteria create chelated iron that plan roots can use.

I've frequented backyardaquaponics.com  and you'll see people mention using this along with some other sources of chelated iron. Some people use seaweed extract to supply iron and some other micronutrients. Others use glacial rock dust... They eat their fish so they are extra finicky when it comes to sources of food for their fish and in turn (from fish poop + some minor ammendmants) nutrients for their veggies that they grow in gravel beds.


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## tyronegenade (Dec 7, 2010)

I have iron nails in my substrate and it works. My Crypts and Hygro love them, wrapping their roots around the nails.

A pH less than 5 can be achieved locally by the action of plant roots. Plant roots secrete acid (H+) to force positively charged ions, cations, off the silicates of the sand. This secretion of protons (H+) also creates an electrochemical gradient across which cations can be drawn into the root cells. 

I have previously commented on this here: http://www.apsa.co.za/board/index.php?topic=4856.msg45471#msg45471 Ferric-chelate reductase enzyme reduces the Fe3+ to Fe2+ which is the biologically useful form of Fe (see http://www.pnas.org/content/104/18/7311/F1.expansion.html).

To use the nail, press them into the substrate near heavy feeders such as Crypts and Amazon swords. If you have soft water, you can do the same with shell grit/dolomite/limestone to meet Ca & Mg needs. (FYI, limestone really increases the pH very fast!!!)

My tank has fish, snails, shrimp and all manner of other creepy-crawlies. I have no problems other than hair algae which I got into the tank by not sterilizing plants. (Thankfully the plants are slowly pushing the algae out.)


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

MrMoneybags said:


> plants probably cant use the rust b/c its not soluble unless your pH is well below 5 or [email protected] point most of your plants/fish will probably be dead unless you have [aquatic] blueberries :hihi:


Not to be a jerk, but this pH wouldn't kill anything on its own. Many discus and apisto keepers keep there pH near 4.... just one more example of the insignificance of pH reading. Stability and consistency are about all that matters....


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I might have to try some tests on this.


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## switcharoo (Sep 5, 2010)

intresting.


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## OoglyBoogly (Oct 19, 2010)

tyronegenade said:


> This secretion of protons (H+)


H+ (a cation) is from the loss of an electron giving the Hydrogen atom a net positive charge. Sorry to be nitpicky. If it's any consolation I lol'd at how "secretion of protons" sounds so dirty. :biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_ion


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## tyronegenade (Dec 7, 2010)

I don't mind nitpickiness. I nitpick all the time. A hydrogen atom minus its electon IS a proton (unless its deuterium or tritium).


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