# Phosphates or no phosphates for planted tank? I'm confused.



## jrill

Phosphate... Good.
2 to 3 ppm.


----------



## kep

+1 there should be some phosphates in the tank up to around 2ppm. I would avoid a phosphate remover product (any any extra products not required). If the phosphates rise too high then just do a bigger water change at the end of the week to knock it down.

I have read excess phosphate can lead to algae problems, but some is good for the plants in the recommended ranges.

I'm not sure why there would be phosphates in the tank already, perhaps your fish food analogy is correct but I'm just speculating. Not an expert in that area. Sounds like if you are running at 2ppm without dosing phosphates you can just keep doing whatever you were doing before you started with the phosphate remover.

Algae is usually due to too much lighting and not enough CO2 and/or circulation. GSA I have read is due to too long of a photoperiod. I am currently battle that myself and decreasing the length the lights are on has helped a lot. You can do a double dose of Excel and it won't hurt anything. You might try that and reducing your photoperiod, also stop using the phosphate remover.


----------



## FatherLandDescendant

Spot algae is common in an immature tank. Diatoms are part of new tank syndrome and usually go away on their own over time.

Plants need phosphates, excessive nutrients like phosphate do not cause algae, poor plant growth does.

Micros has nothing to do with hard water it's all about trace elements, when you dose Micros your dosing Iron, Boron, Manganese, Plantex, Miller Microplex.


----------



## bpb

Increasing phosphate caused GSA to slowly disappear and stay gone for me. and +1 algae is a result of inadequate co2 or too high of lighting based on co2 levels.


----------



## FatherLandDescendant

bpb said:


> Increasing phosphate caused GSA to slowly disappear and stay gone for me. and +1 algae is a result of inadequate co2 or too high of lighting based on co2 levels.



Algae can be caused by an imbalance of ferts as well. That's why EI dosing is non-limiting, so if you do have algae you eliminate ferts as the culprit right away, leaving CO2 and lighting as the culprit.


----------



## DHElder

FatherLandDescendant said:


> Algae can be caused by an imbalance of ferts as well. That's why EI dosing is non-limiting, so if you do have algae you eliminate ferts as the culprit right away, leaving CO2 and lighting as the culprit.


Hmm conflicting information abounds! Based on Tom Barr's testing, ferts are not the culprit for algae growth so based on his advice, no need 
to stop ferts in general when dealing with the algae problem if you feel you need the potassium. With the tank sufficiently generating phosphates through mulm / fish food, no need to using the phosphate remover or adding phosphates. Plants do need phosphates. Saves a little cash.  Seems like you can basically can focus on CO2 levels and lighting. Maybe food levels also.

Some ideas to try. You notice the conflicting information on Nitrates and Phosphates with what I link to below with Tom Barr's testing on it.

http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/algae/a/attackalgae.htm

Even the lighting suggest in this article seems high versus other suggestions I have read. I have also read you could use separate photoperiods of say 4-5 hours on, 4 off, 4-5 on again to allow CO2 levels to recover depending on your tank set up. Not sure if you have a CO2 tank or not.

http://www.firsttankguide.net/algae.php


Per Tom Barr's testing:


> We can add KNO3 and KH2PO4 and show that in a non CO2 tank, excess PO4, NO3 (and Fe) do not cause algae blooms. We can add NH4 and induce a bloom just like a CO2 enriched tank.


http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum/showthread.php/13623-Tom-Barr-s-Non-CO2-method

Hope you figure it out!


----------



## freude88

Okay so this sounds like I definitely need to let the phosphates be up to a 2ppm level and not remove them. Right now I have my lights on for 5 hours off for 2 then back on for 5 1/2 hrs. Is that too much?

Also, if hard water doesn't add the needed micro's won't it raise my GH/KH to undesirable levels since it is already up there? Now I am confused about that  Help

Bump: Duh, sounds like I read threw the last post too quickly on the photo period. That question answered. I do have a low tech setup. If that changes anything let me know.

Still looking for an answer to the micro dosing question in my last post.


----------



## kep

As far as I know the micro dosing doesn't mess with the hardness. Micro nutrients are primarily magnesium, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, zinc, cobalt and a few others. The magnesium I believe does raise hardness but at the level you would be dosing I don't believe it will make an impact. I don't notice any change in my KH or GH at the end of the week.


----------



## freude88

Ok great... Any advice on how much and how many times a week to dose micros on a 72 gallon low light tank?


----------



## johnpfaff

80 gallon heavily planted, lightly stocked for 10 months. Added more fish, more flake food. Prior to this, my plants grew well, but did not spread sideways. Now plants are growing upward and sideways. Guess I needed the phosphate in the flake food.


----------



## kep

freude88 said:


> Ok great... Any advice on how much and how many times a week to dose micros on a 72 gallon low light tank?


I believe for low tech tanks the dosing should be cut in half from the full dose. I'm not positive on this though. It could be a third of the full dose.

Here is a link with recommended dosing for high light tanks with CO2.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21944


----------



## Diana

When we talk about hard water we are discussing 2 kinds of hardness. Hard tap water from a well, river or lake is water that has been in contact with a limestone or similar mineral layer somewhere in its travels, and has picked up calcium and magnesium (GH) and carbonates (KH). 
Since this water has picked up some minerals, it MIGHT have picked up some others. But you do not know unless you see a test report. Water companies produce such a test report, usually annually. They do not test for all the stuff we are interested in. 

Fish food has reasonable amounts of N, P and most micros. 
Fish food does not have much K (potassium), Fe or Ca. 

If your tank is already running high NO3 from fish food... 
and tap water is supplying Ca and Mg...

Then I would just dose potassium and iron.


----------



## Django

I dose NPK twice weekly and one micros. The recipe I used was for full EI, so whatever fraction that works out to be. I have been shooting for 1/4 to 1/3 EI. The second dose of NPK seems to be increasing the Potassium that's been too low.

The plants are doing visibly better and growing faster than just the potting soil substrate and no ferts except Seachem Flourish Complete.

I have reduced algae by reducing the photoperiod by an hour. Raising my lights 2" back to where they were stopped the algae too.

I read a post about algae and it almost sounds like a joke but it's "Just grow your plants." If the plants are performing well, the algae should go away. The plants normally consume ammonia (or is it ammonium?) There is a good blog that has causes for individual types of alga. http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/


----------



## nayr

no phosphates are for non planted tanks, someone has mixed up there information they gave you.

With zero phosphates its very difficult for photosynthesizing life to establish.. including algae, if all you have are plastic plants then its a simple way to control algae. 

Since you have a planted tank you need a steady balance of nutrients, light and co2 to achieve little to no algae.


----------



## philipraposo1982

10 nitrates should have 1 phosphate


----------



## Django

Diana (post above) was saying that fish food, which eventually ends up as part of the water, contains enough Phosphorus.

Sounds a lot like Walstad to me - living on the edge. I don't know what I would do without the EI overkill method. But I think it's valid that just feeding your fish and providing the appropriate light source would grow plants - if the tank is kept in balance. I think it must be pretty hard - they're supposed to be the lowest maintenance of tanks.


----------



## Eutexian

Django said:


> Diana (post above) was saying that fish food, which eventually ends up as part of the water, contains enough Phosphorus.
> 
> Sounds a lot like Walstad to me - living on the edge. I don't know what I would do without the EI overkill method. But I think it's valid that just feeding your fish and providing the appropriate light source would grow plants - if the tank is kept in balance. I think it must be pretty hard - they're supposed to be the lowest maintenance of tanks.


Mine certainly is.. I do very little. a small water change each month. the occasional hack at the plants and add fish food. I'm not sure about 'Living on the edge', what does that even mean?


----------



## Django

What I meant was running a tank without some kind of dosing besides fish food and sometimes with only natural light. Basically, with very few resources. IMO, the biggest resource is the soil, and of course the water. That's one instance of what I would call living on the edge. But please correct me if I am wrong in your case.


----------



## Kubla

> Algae can be caused by an imbalance of ferts as well





> Based on Tom Barr's testing, ferts are not the culprit for algae growth



Fertilizer won't cause algae, but an "imbalance" can result in algae. If you have enough light, carbon and ferts for good plant growth, and then limit one of the fertilizers plant growth will suffer. When plant growth suffers what happens to algae growth?


----------



## Mariostg

Django said:


> Diana (post above) was saying that fish food, which eventually ends up as part of the water, contains enough Phosphorus.
> 
> Sounds a lot like Walstad to me - living on the edge. I don't know what I would do without the EI overkill method. But I think it's valid that just feeding your fish and providing the appropriate light source would grow plants - if the tank is kept in balance. I think it must be pretty hard - they're supposed to be the lowest maintenance of tanks.


Well, I must be living on the edge. No water change, my 75 Gal is almost a year old. My other tanks are coming along too. Plants doing fine, fishies are happy. And so are the snails and shrimps. I don't even have to clean the glass. Early this spring, I removed the background as a test. The tank is by the window facing west.


----------



## Eutexian

Django said:


> What I meant was running a tank without some kind of dosing besides fish food and sometimes with only natural light. Basically, with very few resources. IMO, the biggest resource is the soil, and of course the water. That's one instance of what I would call living on the edge. But please correct me if I am wrong in your case.


There are as many ways of running a tank like this as there are owners. I basically followed the method as described here: http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/Walstad_method

which as you can see recommends lights.. as well as using a filter to "supplement the nitrification process performed by the soil."

The lights I have are definitely at the low end of the power spectrum and the filter has 50% of the recommended 'bio' media installed. Plant growth has been excellent. Fish health - perfect. Algae - negligible. I have never seen a positive test result for ammonia and my nitrate levels are stable just slightly higher than the tap water base line. Its been running like this for 110 days, I have never added any fertilisers and I do a small water change every 4 weeks... which is driven by ease of maintenance rather than 'need'. i.e. dropping the level slightly makes tidying up a lot easier. there is no sign at all of any deficiency nor do i expect to see any for a very long time. if the goal of any aquarium is 'stability' and health of all its occupants - flora and fauna? I have achieved that. And it has been a remarkably simple and street free process.


----------

