# Excel as a treatment for BBA? Experiences?



## Momotaro

I am doing it right now. 

The idea is not to dose Flourish Excel, but to _overdose_ it. No one seems to know why the Excel seems to have an effect of algae, but it appears to have one if the product is overdosed. Flourish Excel contains a glutaraldehyde compound. Glutaraldehyde is a chemical that is very similar to formaldehyde. It is a powerful disinfectant, sporocide and fixant. I am not sure if it is the chemical's sporocidal properties that seem to make it an efficient algaecide or if it is something else in the glutaraldehyde compound itself. Seachem themselves won't make any comments on the algaecidal properties of Excel. They seem to coyly acknowledge the fact in a round about way. Calling th product an algaecide would lead to many legal problems, so they are better of not mentioning or advertising Excel's algaecidal properties.

The idea is to overdose the product 2/3xs the recommended levels for a period of ten to fourteen days.

I found some BBA in my 75G and have been testing it out. I am on day 8 and have noticed the algae disappearing. I have been dosing 25ml at a time and have shut down my UV during this cycle. Glutaraldehyde is a delicate compound, so I was not sure if or how UV light would effect it. I figured the best thing to do would be to shut down the UV. 

My cycle ends in a couple of days, so I can fill everyone in on my personal results. 

Some other folks have tried using Excel and had success as well. 

I am not sure if it is a quick cure, or a lasting remedy. I can't tell you if it has any long term negative effects. *I will tell you if you do overdose Excel, you are doing it at your own risk!!* Overdosing Flourish Excel can have adverse effects of your aquarium's fauna. Overdoses of flourish Excel have been known to kill fish. So, if you do overdose Flourish Excel use your head. keep an eye on your fish and stop dosing if your fish begin to show signs of stress.

Mike


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## Jason Baliban

This is kind of an update to a post that motifone is reffering to. I will be more complete in this one.
46 Gallon
Pressurized Co2 30++ppm CO2
4 KH
7 GH
2x55watts 6700k + 2x13watts 5500k

Dosing EI
Day1) 50% H20 CHange dose 1/2Tsp KN03 3/8Tsp KH2P04 1/8Tsp K2S04
Day2) dose 10ml flourish
Day3)dose 1/2Tsp KN03 3/8Tsp KH2P04 1/8Tsp K2S04
Day4)same as day2
Day5) Add if needed - mostly nothing 
Day6) same as day1
Day7) same as day2

I am dosing 18ml of excel per day. That is about 3x suggested.
I have been dosing for about 3 days and the BBA tuffs are already turning red. I dont know exactly what this means. I dont know what is going to happen next. I will keep you updated. If anyone has insite, that would be great. Here is a very very terrible picture of the algae. You can sort of make it out on the front leave and the back right leave. You can see how it has begun to turn red.










jB


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## m.lemay

I've been doing it for about a week now and there seems to be very little effect on staghorn. I think the problem is the UV sterilizer is recking this compound before it has a chance to work.

So I'm starting over but this time I'm diconnecting the UV for 10 days. This staghorn is nasty. It feels like a worm between my fingers when i pick it out of the tank...  nasty stuff.  

Marcel


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## motifone

Sounds like the experiments are in progress. I will state the obvious and say, all of us, to our knowledge are keeping are nutrients in check and are resorting to Excel as a sort of final resort. Spending two hours separating and cutting BBA effected Tenellus leaves from healthy ones is not something I'd like to do every weekend.  If there's something out there that will kill the spores, bring it on. I, too, have a UVS. I'll unplug it if I try this.

Is overdosing Excel more dangerous than blasting CO2 to 40-50ppm? Possibly.

For those (over) dosing Excel, what's your "fauna" like? List casualties, if any. 

Mine: Praecox Rainbows, Cardinals, Harlequins, Rummies, Amanos, Cherry Shrimp, Ottos and SAE.

For the curious, here's mine. Not terrible, more like black pepper, but better to nip it in the bud:


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## BSS

Momotaro said:


> .... Flourish Excel contains a glutaraldehyde compound. Glutaraldehyde is a chemical that is very similar to formaldehyde. It is a powerful disinfectant, sporocide and fixant. I am not sure if it is the chemical's sporocidal properties that seem to make it an efficient algaecide or if it is something else in the glutaraldehyde compound itself. ....
> 
> Mike


Sure, Mike. Use lots of big, technical terms and impress us all even more roud: !

Good data, gents. Can't wait to see how similar the experiences turn out to be. I've recently upped my CO2 and what little BBA I had seems to be disappearing. But, should that fail, Excel is next on the list.

Brian.


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## jhoetzl

Momotaro said:


> Glutaraldehyde is a chemical that is very similar to formaldehyde.


Don't get any ideas there! I know you were thinking about taking some home and giving that a whirl too :hihi:


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## m.lemay

motifone said:


> Sounds like the experiments are in progress. I will state the obvious and say, all of us, to our knowledge are keeping are nutrients in check and are resorting to Excel as a sort of final resort. Spending two hours separating and cutting BBA effected Tenellus leaves from healthy ones is not something I'd like to do every weekend.  If there's something out there that will kill the spores, bring it on. I, too, have a UVS. I'll unplug it if I try this.


This is definitely a last resort for me, as it should be for everyone. And yes, my nutrients are all, in excess as per EI method.



motifone said:


> Is overdosing Excel more dangerous than blasting CO2 to 40-50ppm? Possibly..


 Well I've had my CO2 at 50 ppm for months now with no problems but you gotta make sure that there's a slight surface current to keep O2 levels up at night.



motifone said:


> For those (over) dosing Excel, what's your "fauna" like? List casualties, if any.
> 
> Mine: Praecox Rainbows, Cardinals, Harlequins, Rummies, Amanos, Cherry Shrimp, Ottos and SAE.


I have Boesemani rainbows,Harlequins,Ottos, and several bolivian rams with no adverse affects, but I don't have any invertibrates.



motifone said:


> For the curious, here's mine. Not terrible, more like black pepper, but better to nip it in the bud:


You're algae is not bad at all, but it looks like you've been maintaining it pretty well with trimming..

Marcel


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## briandmiles

Gluteraldehyde is, in fact, degraded by photons in the UV spectrum. It is commonly used in my field of work and always in an opaque, covered container. You may want to reduce your photoperiod as well since that would have a dual effect of less gluteraldehyde degradation and less light for the algae. In high concentrations it needs 8-12 hours to work so I wouldn't be suprised if it takes at least 8-10 days in the concentrations that overdosing Flourish Excel would produce. Contact for humans isn't a problem so I would assume the plants and animals should be fine if you don't overdo it.

Brian


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## Momotaro

Reasonable contact with Flourish Excel (eyes, mucous membranes excluded)shouldn't be a problem. I wouldn't hold my nose over the Excel and inhale deeply, but it is relatively safe. I believe Brian is referring to contact with Flourish Excel as being non problematic.

I have also worked with glutaraldehyde. Any contact with glutaraldehyde would be a problem. It is a nasty chemical that should be neither inhaled or come in contact with skin. 



> Contact for humans isn't a problem so I would assume the plants and animals should be fine if you don't overdo it.


Remember, if you are dosing Excel to combat algae, you _are_ over doing it! You have to over do it for the Excel to work. Watch your fish!

Mike


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## PeteyPob

My BBA is like the one in the second picture but 3x worse. I want to try this method once I get my new scedule in place and dosing regimen set. If my new schedule doesnt work then I will be more than happy to try it. Does anyone have BBA the peppering kind on their glosso? I do and its killing the heck out of them. :icon_frow Oh yea, so when trying this method would it be better to dose it on the Trace days with the csm+b or on the macro days?
Pete


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## snake

My 75 used to have terrible BBa out breaks that I could not control w/ my present equipment set up(diy co2). I started using Excel to supplement my lack of CO2 and used it only at RECCOMENDED doses. Mindful,I'm at moderate light(2.3 wpg) and have a medium/heavy fishload,so I started the the EI and loaded up tank with a few more stem plants,also I do water changes every 3 days(discus). I no longer have the huge BBA outbreaksas a matter of fact no algae except small ,yet persisent amount of BGA. 
I will probably continue to use Excel in my doseing(recently got 2 liter from Bigal).
I hane had NO fauna death that I can attribute to it.

Dean


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## rain-

I really can't tell much about getting rid of algae since I've been really lucky with not having much algae in my tanks, *knocks on wood*. But I remember having one or two bushes of brush algae on my apple tree branch and they turned red and withered away when I used Excel. I didn't overdose though. I used DIY CO2 thingy too.


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## Momotaro

I think your elimination of the BBA in your aquarium snake had more to do with your following the EI _and_ adding Excel than the use of Excel alone at recommended doses. 

I noticed the BBA about two weeks ago. I have no idea how it got there, but it did. My nutrient parameters were pretty good, and my CO2 level was fine too. My conditions were similar to that of Marcel. Despite good parameters, I had algae.

I agree with Marcel. Excel overdosing should be a last resort. Get a handle on your parameters and push your CO2 levels up before trying anything else.

Mike


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## motifone

Hmm. This has been an interesting thread, Is it BBA season? 

I checked my KH last night and readjusted my CO2 to pump about 40-50ppm of CO2 into the tank -- that's with a KH of 5 and a shifting pH of 6.3 (off) -6.5(on) -- on my Milwaukee controller. My "off" setup used to be 6.5. 

I might pick up a 500ml bottle of Excel from online while I'm ordering a few other goods tonight. Since my nutrients seem to be in check and I am dosing EI style, I might also try dosing Excel at the recommended dose first. My algae isn't bad, but there's been enough to raise a flag. Better to nip it in the bud before it gains a greater foothold.


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## ThomE

motifone,

Not to throw a wrench in this thread. But looking at the pic, you sure it isn't spot algae? 

Anyway, I started dosing excel also. Somebody told me it helps with the iron uptake too. So, I guess one product with many trades.


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## motifone

ThomE,

No problem. My pictures are somewhat deceiving because the algae is not far along. It does seem though to be the beginnings of BBA -- it's not threads, but little black marks, like pieces of ash. What gives it away is as BBA is its preference for growing along the leave edges (like a fringe), on the surface of leaves, and the color, black. 

I have some green spot algae as well, which is more green and circular. Here's another picture of BBA (NOT from my tank), but some of my worse-off Tenellus leaves had progressed to about 70% of this point:










There's some other pictures and other good info here:

http://www.plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=9


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## PeteyPob

I have the exact same thing as Monitfone,
It is on the edges of my pigmys,stallatas, glosso. I am also starting to develop this brown algae on plants(dont know where this is coming from). You can tell spot algae from BBA, I have spot algae too and its green compared to the BBA. Hummm I seem to have built a collection of plants AND algae  .
Pete


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## motifone

Hi gang,

Any updates on results or is it too soon to ask? Be sure to include what you dosed -- as directed, 2x, 3x, etc.

Does it actually wither/dissolve away older pieces of BBA or just prevents a spread?


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## Momotaro

I finished my 14 day cycle last week. The BBA, as far as I can tell, is all gone.

Mike


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## Vinlo

I am thinking of using this method on some thread algae I just can't shake. I guess no one has done this long enough ago to know if it is just a band aid or an actual cure?


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## motifone

Mike

Thanks for the promising update.

I will proceed, with caution. I think I'll progressively increase my dosage over the first three days -- as prescribed on day 1, 2x on day 2, 3x on day 3 -- and then leveling off at 3x the dose for the remainder of the 14 days.


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## Momotaro

I would just dose 3x the product from the get go.

Do it right after your water change. Dose the first dose per Excel instructions for a first dose (1 capful or 5ml per 10G). The initial Excel dose after a water change is usually a high dose anyway, so you might as well continue from there.

Mike


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## mr hyde

I've had a serious case of BBA for about 6 months and am currently on day 6 of the excel treatment. Just like the other folks mentioned, most of the bba has turned red and seems to have stopped growing. I'm hoping it dies off. One thing I noticed is that since it's turned red my siamese algae eaters eat the older algae instead of only the new smaller bba. They grab onto it and twist and turn until it rips off.


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## Curare

So it goes red when it's starting to croak?

Ahhh

I see.

Is it possible that we're actually making things a lot harder than they have to be?

I mean, take a look at what Tom Barr has proscribed in the past.

B/G algae - low-no nitrates
G/W - high levels of ammonia.
green algae - increase phosphates

Surely then we must assume that BBA is a sign of some other water parameter not being right, right?

What does excel contain that's helping the fight?

What levels are over the top or limitng plant growth?

I think this is the proper way to address the algae situation don't you?


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## motifone

*grrr. what to dose?*

ok, I'm slightly confused... maybe you guys can lend a hand. Per Seachem's website, normal dosing of Excel is as follows:

"On initial use or after a major (>Ê40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). Thereafter use 1Êcapful (5ml) for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day."

When determining a 2x or 3x dose for my 50 gallon tank, which of the above dosage rules do I go by? If I go by the 1Êcapful (5ml) for every 50 gallons, then a 2x dose for my 50g would be 10ml and a 3x dose for my 50g would be 15ml? Yes? I will assume these are daily doses, not every other day.

I can't figure out how some of you folks arrived at doses like 25ml for a 75g as mentioned in this thread, or others I've read like, 15ml in a 30g, or 30ml in a 18g.

Basically, what would you recommend as 2x and 3x dosages for my 50g? Also, should I expect cloudiness during the treatment? If so, do I stick to my normal once a week water change routine or do a special "emergency" partial water change?

thanks!!


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## Jason Baliban

I just finished a 10 day cycle of excell. I have to tell you things look much better. There is still some bba on plants that where really effected. I seems to have stopped growing, so now I just trim the old leaves bit by bit. I wish that I had a control to see if it was really the excell or me finally getting my ferts in order. Either way, I think that it the excell has a lot to do with it, considering all the positive results that folks are having. Motifone, I have a 46 gallon tank. I dosed around 15 or so ml of excell per day. I experienced no cloudyness and some of my red plants got really red, which was a nice bonus. Also, no ill effects to my fish.
jB


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## aquaverde

Curare said:


> So it goes red when it's starting to croak?
> 
> Ahhh
> 
> I see.
> 
> Is it possible that we're actually making things a lot harder than they have to be?
> 
> I mean, take a look at what Tom Barr has proscribed in the past.
> 
> B/G algae - low-no nitrates
> G/W - high levels of ammonia.
> green algae - increase phosphates
> 
> Surely then we must assume that BBA is a sign of some other water parameter not being right, right?
> 
> What does excel contain that's helping the fight?
> 
> What levels are over the top or limitng plant growth?
> 
> I think this is the proper way to address the algae situation don't you?


Tom Barr’s prescription for BBA is high CO2 levels, so for a CO2-injected tank, BBA control is accomplished by maintaining 30ppm CO2. In a non-CO2 tank, this can’t be done, but lower light levels and healthy plants help to keep things in balance.

Keeping the CO2 high prevents BBA from growing. It is a very persistent algae, and there are stories of aquarists removing infested driftwood and placing it in the dark for 6 months and having the BBA come right back after it was returned to an aquarium. Physical removal is part of the routine for getting rid of this stuff, and that includes infected leaves on plants. Excel will kill it, and possibly save your plants. Also, bleach will kill it (chorine or peroxide) but those methods are a bit dicey. Some aquarists have reported good success controlling BBA outbreaks by using Excel, and it’s a better option in some cases.

DIY CO2 tanks are especially susceptible to BBA because (and this comes from Barr- I’m no plant scientist) BBA can take advantage of the fluctuating levels of carbon in the tank, whereas plants are less successful. So fluctuating CO2 is a condition that will favor BBA. For this reason, Tom Barr advises not to do regular water changes on non-CO2 injected tanks. Tap water generally has high levels of dissolved CO2, and regular water changes can actually trigger BBA because it will temporarily raise CO2 levels.


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## plantbrain

Curare said:


> I mean, take a look at what Tom Barr has proscribed in the past.
> 
> B/G algae - low-no nitrates
> G/W - high levels of ammonia.
> green algae - increase phosphates
> 
> Surely then we must assume that BBA is a sign of some other water parameter not being right, right?
> 
> What does excel contain that's helping the fight?
> I think this is the proper way to address the algae situation don't you?


Yes, think BBA=> low CO2.
Adding Excel= adds carbon and relieves the need for CO2.

Pretty straight forward.
Now try this with Cladophora(green hair algae- has branches)
I'm on 12 weeks with it and excel, no effect, I did melt some Lagarosiphon madagascarensis though.......

I can stop BBA growing by adding enough CO2.

I do not need it to die, I just need the algae to stop growing.
From there I can prune it off.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## shalu

plantbrain said:


> Now try this with Cladophora(green hair algae- has branches)
> I'm on 12 weeks with it and excel, no effect, I did melt some Lagarosiphon madagascarensis though.......


I have the green hair algae in my low maint 10 gallon. That's about the only algae I have there, on the gravel. I don't intentionally overdose Excel to kill algae, not yet, just dose 5-10ml Excel once a week. Just pour straight in, no accurate measurements. I noticed SOME of the hair algae died and turned black, not sure if it is due to Excel. My Lagarosiphon madagascarensis is still beautiful though.


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## Stu

plantbrain said:


> Now try this with Cladophora(green hair algae- has branches)
> I'm on 12 weeks with it and excel, no effect, I did melt some Lagarosiphon madagascarensis though.......


I have a beaker of Cladophora aegagropila clippings at the moment, and I have some Excel.... I feel like playing.


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## plantbrain

That species is not a problem, try something that is.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Curare

After having a little bit of a read on your thoughts expresseded in the all wet thumbs forums, I am starting to wonder about my dosing, and it's possible causes for my BBA outbreak...

From what I've learned so far, is that CO2 gives one a greater margin for error, and a wider scope to control plant growth, and in turn, nutrient uptake to the point where it out competes algae.

However in the case of cyanobacteria, it's nitrogen fixing so that no matter how much co2 you add, if you have no N for the plants to utilise, the cyanabacteria will bloom on the remaining unused nutrients.

Would it be fair to assume that a low level of KNO3 coupled with an overdose of KPO4 and traces be to blame? In that there is enough NO3 being used to not warrant an outbreak of cyanobacteria, as it's being outcompeted by the plants and possibly higher echelon algaes. However, The plants don't have enough to continute photosynthesising and the higher echelon algaes bloom.

Basically I'm assuming that by dosing in the reigeme that I am, I'm depleting the NO3 too much for the plants and suddenly the bba has a chance to get a stranglehold?

Also seeing as plants love a supply of NH4 would it be the next logical step to start adding NH4 to give the plants the winning edge in utilising the micros and macros?

Yes, I'm adding fuel to the fire, I'd like to hear your opinions or your findings on this.

Curare


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## motifone

I started my 15ml of Excel a day after last Sunday's water change. Sunday is water change day again, about 50%. Am I suppose to skip the water change or perform water change as usual and then dose a bit more of Excel to bring the concentrations back up?


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## Jason Baliban

Hey,
I just did my WC as normal. Are you noticing any changes?
jB


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## motifone

hi jason

A little too soon to day re: seeing changes. My BBA problem has always been pretty minor, most of which I kept under control by pruning. I certainly think growth has stalled. Time to see what the Excel does to what is left.

steve


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## m.lemay

Ok; The first time I did the excell treatment I had my UV on the whole time and it the excell did very little to improve bba or any thing else for that matter.

So I decided to try it again without the UV, and I'm pleased to say that after 7 days it appears to be working. I'm gonna keep it up for 4-5 more days to see if it will be erradicated completely.
Observations after 7 days:There appears to be no new infected leaves. The previously black fuzz is turning almost white.

All along I've been pruning the the grossly infected leaves, The hairgrass got a major pruning as I suspect that it was trapping a lot of detritus which was contributing to the problem.I've also been keeping my ferts up and CO2 levels up, as always. 

There is a couple of things that I did this last water change that seems to have had a very positive effect, and thats cleaning out both canister filters. I previously would only clean one out a time and I'd go months between cleanings. :icon_redf I also vacuumed the crap out of the substrate and hairgrass. I suspect that rotting plant matter in the hairgrass and canisters were contributing heavily to this algae outbreak.(in hindsight......DUhhhh)  

Heres one thing for sure, I'll be cleaning my canisters much more often and vacuuming the grass and substate at every water change from now on. I'll let you guys know what happens at the end of treatment and if the effects are lasting.

Marcel


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## cprroy73

mlemay, Do you still dose micro's along with the excell, as well as the other macros?


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## Jim

*Removal of Algae Covered Leaves*

I'm on day 2 of an Excel treatment for my BBA, hair and green spot algae. I'm using 25 mls daily in a 85G planted discus tank. I regularly remove as much algae as I can from tank surfaces and leaves, but there are still plants in my tank that are heavily affected. Here's my question -- should I wait a week or so until it starts dying off or should I agressively be removing the bad leaves now? I'm trying to avoid having to trim back certain plants (basically to nothing). Will waiting just prolong my algae problem? 

On the positive side, I have been doing a number of things in the last few weeks, in addition to the Excel treatment, that I think are working (more plants, regular ferts dosing, etc.). Here are the water details, FYI:

pH: 6.8
Temp: 84
KH: 5 degrees
GH: 8 degrees
Nitrate: 10 ppm
PO4: 2 ppm
Light: 3.0 WPG
CO2: 24 ppm


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## shalu

Jim, increase CO2 a bit, it will help a lot. It is rather expensive doing Excel in a 85 gallon. Did not realize you also have a discus tank roud: I want to hear about your discus at next SFBAAPS plant swap. With high CO2 and regular dosing, I don't have any algae except a bit of hair algae on gravel.


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## Jim

Sha,

Thanks, I'll bump the CO2 up a bit and see if that helps. Yes, I have ten discus in my 85G, all between 4"-5". Leopards, Snakeskin, Snowflake, Blue Diamond, Yellow Sunrise, Phoenix and Red Melons. It's currently a discus-only tank, but I'm thinking about adding a few SAEs and Corys to help with algae control. I'm just hesitant because I don't want to visually detract from the discus. For me, it's all about the discus and plants roud: 

Jim


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## m.lemay

cprroy73 said:


> mlemay, Do you still dose micro's along with the excell, as well as the other macros?


Oh yes, do everything as you normally would. Keep the ferts in good ranges and also CO2.

Marcel


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## Momotaro

I really think cutting of any UV sterilizers is very important to the Excel treatment.

The active ingredient in Excel seems to be a bit photo sensitive, so backing off on the UV is a good idea. I dosed Excel late in the day, toward the end of my photo period as well. Figured it would minimize light exposure. 

Mike


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## cobra

Is Flourish excel dosed at two to three times the regular amount harmful to shrimps?

G


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## aquaverde

Jim said:


> I'm on day 2 of an Excel treatment for my BBA, hair and green spot algae. I'm using 25 mls daily in a 85G planted discus tank. I regularly remove as much algae as I can from tank surfaces and leaves, but there are still plants in my tank that are heavily affected. Here's my question -- should I wait a week or so until it starts dying off or should I agressively be removing the bad leaves now? I'm trying to avoid having to trim back certain plants (basically to nothing). Will waiting just prolong my algae problem?
> 
> On the positive side, I have been doing a number of things in the last few weeks, in addition to the Excel treatment, that I think are working (more plants, regular ferts dosing, etc.). Here are the water details, FYI:
> 
> pH: 6.8
> Temp: 84
> KH: 5 degrees
> GH: 8 degrees
> Nitrate: 10 ppm
> PO4: 2 ppm
> Light: 3.0 WPG
> CO2: 24 ppm


Your parameters look pretty good. If you have the tank stuffed full of plants and they're growing, things should be improving. Removal of the infested plant parts, especially hair and BBA-infested, is important.


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## m.lemay

Day 8: All the bba fuzz(brush is gone) ,whats left of the bba now looks like green spot on the edges of the affected leaves. I got 4 more days days to go for a total of 12 days, I might go 2 more days for a total of 14 days of treatment. 

For anyone thats interested heres how much Excel I've been dosing: 50ml/75gal everyday, which amounts to 6.6ml/10gals.

Marcel


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## Jim

*Fish Stress w/ Excel Overdosing*

I'm on day four of an Excel overdose treatment for BBA, spot and green algae. It's definitely working (on all three types). Unfortunately, some of my discus appear stressed (loss of appetite, lethargic, fin clamping). Earlier this week, I thought these signs may be attributed to a bacterial infection of some sort with the fish, so I separated three discus into a hospital tank and have been treating them. The Furan-2 medication I'm using doesn't seem to be helping much. At this point, they aren't really showing signs of infection, just stress. I'm attributing it to the Excel overdosing, rather than a true bacterial infection. To be on the safe side, I'm going to stop the Excel treatments and see if things improve. 

So...the excel definitely works, but I think it's really important to monitor how your fish are handling it during the treatments.


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## m.lemay

Day 12: All the algae is pretty much gone except for some green spot on glass. I can deal with green spot on glass, scrape at water change, easy. I will however continue treatment for 2 more days. As per above, make sure you turn off your UV if you have one.

This treatment works, no doubt about it, and the plants didn't suffer because of it. 

Now I need to make a decision as to wether or not I should continue small maintenance doses(as per directions on bottle) to keep my tank algae free.

Marcel


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## aquatic-store.com

I had some of my cherries die about 50 of them using 3x the rec dosage to get rid of hair algae. Some of the younger ones survived the older ones all died


cobra said:


> Is Flourish excel dosed at two to three times the regular amount harmful to shrimps?
> 
> G


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## GTApuffgal

Well, I am picking up some Excel today. My CO2 was down for 3 days and I have BBA...

Marcel, thanks for the dosing info! Just one question - is that daily?

I'll let you know how it goes!


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## Momotaro

> Now I need to make a decision as to wether or not I should continue small maintenance doses(as per directions on bottle) to keep my tank algae free


I have done the maintenance dosage and see no ill effects. I just dose the recommended amount for the 75G three times a week. With the higher CO2 level, algae is pretty much at bay, so it is hard to tell if the Excel is actually doing anything.

The Excel will help out GTApuffgal, but the treatment seems to work best in conjunction with CO2 injection.

To answer the question for Marcel, you will need to dose the Excel daily for a period of 10-14 days.

Mike


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## PeteyPob

I have been dosing about 3x the required amount for about 2 weeks. I still have some of the rocky BBA on my sword thats pretty stubborn and some of the bushy BBA on one of my driftwoods. Although its still there It hasnt grown much and is pretty much in check. With my KH @12 and pH @6.9 with co2 I plan on dosing the recommened amount until I finish the bottle.


----------



## GTApuffgal

IT'S TURNING RED ALREADY!!!!!!!!! 

Lovin' Excel right about now... roud:


----------



## pk-sd

GTApuffgal said:


> IT'S TURNING RED ALREADY!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Lovin' Excel right about now... roud:


Wow ! only in three days. I am waiting for my shipment of excel which will arrive on Wednesday. Just cant find most of the Flourish stuff locally.

PK


----------



## GTApuffgal

pk-sd said:


> Wow ! only in three days. I am waiting for my shipment of excel which will arrive on Wednesday. Just cant find most of the Flourish stuff locally.
> 
> PK


I was really surprised when the lights came on this morning and I noticed it. All evidence to the contrary, it just seemed to good to be true! It's wonderful to know it is really really working!


----------



## donkey

think i need to get some Flourish soon it seems to work for you guys


----------



## Momotaro

> think i need to get some Flourish soon it seems to work for you guys


_Flourish Excel_, donkey! roud: 

Mike


----------



## donkey

will it kill other algae as well ?


----------



## plantbrain

Curare said:


> However in the case of cyanobacteria, it's nitrogen fixing so that no matter how much co2 you add, if you have no N for the plants to utilise, the cyanabacteria will bloom on the remaining unused nutrients.
> 
> Curare


No, the species of Oscillitoria we have does NOT fix N2 gas, it simply does not have too. There is plenty of NO3/NH4 around relative to their size and biomass. Plants need far more NO3/NH4 than BGA's.

I addressed this on the APD several years ago(4?) and elsewhere since.
Speculations and inaccurate use of references leads to myths. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fester

I was telling my LFS where I get my CO2 tank refilled about Excel and its
algeaside properties. He doesn't stock any Seachem products as he reckons they are way too expensive (over here in Oz anyway). Tried to talk me into some other brand of BBA killer. As BBA was getting a lot worse in my tank, gave the Excel a go. In about a week at double dose it had all gone! I couldn't believe just how effective it was.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

Just added 90 mls to my 90 gallon, injected tank. 

The bba has been kicking butt! I admit, i have not been lavishing as much attention as I used to on the tank, I *try* to do a weekly 60% change and folow the E.I., but lately, it has been going two weeks or so. The bba has always been a problem, but lately it's been getting the upper hand! How come it likes water current so much?

I keep CO2 @about 50ppm. I know it's high, but the angel fish keep breeding, and everyone else seems "happy". Reading Toms advice, I cranked it up that high a while ago. No help.

Well, heres to a solution in a bottle. Go bba, go away! DIE!


----------



## fhqwhgads

hmm, mine in my 10 gallon has seem to gotten to a lighter green in some parts, is it working or am i just not very good at seeing htings. im on about day 4 or so


----------



## plantbrain

Heck, get your hands in there an trim off the BBA.
Then it will not grow back if you have enough CO2 and regular dosing.

But adding enough CO2 alone will not kill the BBA that's there now...
Trim the plants, they will look ratty after the BBA is gone anyway.

It *always* helps to manually remove some if not most all algae you see or have issues with, then correct the environmental issues that caused them.

Do that, then add the Excel on top of that as well as add enough CO2. 


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*Here is what I'm up against..*

12 hours after adding 90 mls to my 90 gallon tank. (Anybody on the dose?)
After 12 hours I do not expect anything, but i will take periodic pics to show.
Also, just before adding the 90 mls to the tank, I did a 60% change, 3/4 tsp kno3, 3/4 tsp k2so4, 15 drops enema, and 10mls flourish.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

It is BBA.........right?


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

Boy, the more I look at that pic, the more I want to rip EVERYTHING and start over!


----------



## John P.

wantplantsnotwork said:


> It is BBA.........right?


Yes. You'll need to remove all affected leaves, as the plant tissue will be damaged. And OD Excel.


----------



## pk-sd

In my case I did remove most of the effected leaves before starting the treatment. Now I am on day 10 of 14 day treatment. 90% of the BBA is gone. 

Any leaves or surfaces that still have dead BBA left on it, I no longer remove the leaves, I just massage it and this stuff just crumbles off.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*On the Dose...*

Are you adding more every day, week, what is the general thought here?

In my tank, I added 90ml to kick off the concert. How much/when should I follow up?

Thanks,


----------



## m.lemay

m.lemay said:


> Day 8: All the bba fuzz(brush is gone) ,whats left of the bba now looks like green spot on the edges of the affected leaves. I got 4 more days days to go for a total of 12 days, I might go 2 more days for a total of 14 days of treatment.
> 
> For anyone thats interested heres how much Excel I've been dosing: 50ml/75gal everyday, which amounts to 6.6ml/10gals.
> 
> Marcel


 This is my dosing schedule from a previous post.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*Holy Algae Balls!*

That's a lot of product! 

Gonna have to give big Al's another order.
Hmm. If I only have to do this every 6 months, I guess it's doable.

Sure would like to prevent it in the first place!


----------



## Anthony

If Excel does have algaecidal properties, why not use something like Algae Fix, which would save on money over buying a huge bottle of Excel. Has anyone tried it.


----------



## m.lemay

Anthony said:


> If Excel does have algaecidal properties, why not use something like Algae Fix, which would save on money over buying a huge bottle of Excel. Has anyone tried it.


I've used algaefix in the past and some plants seemed to suffer. But with the excell, the plants seem to thrive even more. Drs Foster and smith had the excel on sale, 2liters for $19.95.


----------



## GTApuffgal

m.lemay said:


> I've used algaefix in the past and some plants seemed to suffer. But with the excell, the plants seem to thrive even more. Drs Foster and smith had the excel on sale, 2liters for $19.95.


I've never used an algaecide, but I've been using your Excel dosing schedule for 2 weeks, Marcel. Results are fantastic! Algae is all but gone and the plants are REALLY performing. I'm going to continue to supplement my CO2 with Excel. 

This works kids!


----------



## John P.

Anthony said:


> If Excel does have algaecidal properties, why not use something like Algae Fix, which would save on money over buying a huge bottle of Excel. Has anyone tried it.


Because everything else kills inverts (shrimp); Excel doesn't.


----------



## pk-sd

John P. said:


> Because everything else kills inverts (shrimp); Excel doesn't.


Even my anacharis is thriving with over dosing of excel (seachem website says it might effect anacharis).

BBA Mystery no more.... :icon_bigg


----------



## Buck

I have used Excel before in my 10 gallon setups and HATED the results. I was scared to death to "overdose" with it but now I am wondering if it is considered underdosing doing it by the instructions. :icon_roll 

How did I miss this thread... jeeeez !

Has anyone experienced any bad effects from these levels ? It appears that everyone is still running their CO2 in addition to Excel dosing ... no fish stress ?


----------



## Buck

Quite a bba forest ya got goin there Peter...  

I can see where you might be disheartened a bit and ready for a fresh start, those plants may be beyond repair, bba is nasty stuff.


----------



## Anthony

I gave in. Can't beat something that'll do 2 helpful things at once.


----------



## pk-sd

Tearing down and re-starting does no good. I read a study (I think it was on thekrib.com) where someone tore their entire setup down, bleached everything and BBA came back after few months.

I will look for that article.


----------



## pk-sd

Here is that study:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/brush-algae.html#2


----------



## Anthony

No, I meant the Excel treatment.


----------



## pk-sd

Anthony said:


> No, I meant the Excel treatment.



Sorry, misunderstood... :icon_frow


----------



## Anthony

Would 1 2liter be enough for the treatment in a 37 gallon.


----------



## pk-sd

For treatment, more than enough. You can use the rest for maintnence phase. Just use the recommneded dose after that. My treatment was done with 250ml bottle for 55g tank.


----------



## Anthony

I just found some at a lfs. Bought a 500ml bottle and started dosing 30 ml today. Hope it works.


----------



## Momotaro

Here is what you should be doing, Anthony.

Excel dosage - At water change one capful for every 10G
1ml per 10G daily or every other day

Excel Algae Program - At water change one capful for every 10G
3ml per 10G daily

For your 37G, I would dose 4 capfuls (20ml) at water change and then 12 ml daily for ten days to two weeks. Shut off any UV sterilizer, if you have one. I dosed in the evenings, toward lights out, since Excel is affected by light.

So a 250ml bottle should last the entire treatment.

You still need to maintain a good CO2 and fertilizer level. Excel can help, but you really shouldn't rely on it to cure all your algae woes.

Mike


----------



## Anthony

Man this stuff works great. A couple of hours later and the bba on my wenditii has turned red, and the bba on my driftwood is gone already.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

Well how cool is this?  Turning red!

Nearing the 48 hour mark, and I just added 30mls and snapped off this pick. roud:

PS: Anyone know what plant that is that got the beard?


----------



## pk-sd

wantplantsnotwork said:


> Well how cool is this?  Turning red!
> 
> Nearing the 48 hour mark, and I just added 30mls and snapped off this pick. roud:
> 
> PS: Anyone know what plant that is that got the beard?


Yep, it seems to be working. Mine did the same thing. After few more days you might have to rub the leaf with your fingers to remove dead bba. On most plants it just disappeared.

I think the plant is Anubias nana. I Could be wrong though.


----------



## Troy McClure

My guess would be Anubias as well.

When I was dosing Excel at 2x, the algae on my spraybar actually turned purple. PURPLE! Go figure.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*Excel 1, cherry barb 0*

At least the cherry barb did not have bba on it?  

I was gonna post a pic of it, but just picture a dead cherry barb! 

(I really love my new digital rebel)


----------



## Anthony

It works, it works!!! Die BBA scum! roud: Oh, and ummmmmm, sacrifices must be made for plant greatness......or something like that.


----------



## Anthony

BTW has anyone noticed a slight haze when doing the treatment?


----------



## m.lemay

Anthony said:


> BTW has anyone noticed a slight haze when doing the treatment?


Some people have reported a haze, But I never had it in my tank.


----------



## Anthony

Okie dokie


----------



## John P.

Anthony said:


> BTW has anyone noticed a slight haze when doing the treatment?


Only happened to me a couple times.


----------



## pk-sd

No not while dosing Excel. But I get slight haze when I dose Iron.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

I got a haze for the first 24 hours.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*Pumped...*

I was thinking I was gonna have to clear cut my "Jungle", but now I am thinking most will be able to stay. 
If I can get this under control, I just may start an aquascape!
Long Live Excel!!!


----------



## John P.

Yes, it's nice when your energy can be focused on enjoyable tasks, rather than algae!


----------



## VITARTE

Iam on my second day of the Excel treatment in my 10g and coming home from work this afternoon I found one of my ghost shrimp ( I have about 9 ) dead. I know it is only a 'ghost' ( as opposed to the other most expensive ones ) but still makes me a little sad and worried. It was the biggest one of my 9 so Iam really hoping it died of an old age.


----------



## plantbrain

Amano's don't mind 2x initial dosing levels every other day.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## VITARTE

*7 of 9*

Jeez... third day of dosing and I found another 'ghost' dead.  
Should I keep with the treatment or rid my tank of the shrimp population?
The algae in my tank is not that bad I should say. The anubias I have in there seem to be the only plant algae has gained a good foothold though.
BTW the extra dosing hasn't caused any visible stress in my other tank inhabitants ( rams, gouramies, neon tetras ,otos ) but then again it's only been three days. I also wanted to mention that I haven't noticed any major change in the algae appareance ( no red/purple color change whatsoever)Still it may be too early to tell.
In any event I guess Im gonna have to find another way to deal with this BBA stuff. dont want to lose anymore shrimp ( they're really hard to get by around this area )
One last thing, this has only been my personal experience with the excel overdosing treatment. It just didn't work for me.
For the curious , the " How to kill 2 ghost shrimp in 3 days " treatment.
10g Tank
day 1 - 50% water change, 5ml flourish excel.
day 2 - 3ml flourish excel. 1st casualty.
day 3 - 3ml flourish excel . 2nd casualty. - End of treatment.

Rafo.


----------



## fhqwhgads

thats odd, i have 12 ghosts in my 10 gal and i dose at least 5ml a day without any casualties except for my oto on the first day


----------



## Anthony

The excel works great my tank is looking awesome. i'm just stopping in to let ya'll know how well it's working, my internet has been disconnected :icon_frow :icon_redf


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*Same leaf 1 week later!*

Here we are aproximately 1 week later. I will ALWAYS have Excel in my tank from here on out. Who said if it came in a bottle it would'nt work? (I remember reading that 8 months ago...)

EDIT: I have not stuck my hands in the tank AT ALL. This was all the work of Excel, and maybe (don't know) sae's or bushy nose that like the taste of dead BBA. At anyrate, it is about 98% eradicated.

I wish the Excel would kill sae's! I also have to remove two bushy nose's, they have developed a fondness for many of my plants, and killed my HUGE sword.


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*here is the first one for comparison.*

Before starting:


----------



## m.lemay

You still might want to trim the leaves that were most affected, because you don't want this stuff to come back. I dose excel once a week now at water change time and my tank has been staying pristine. For a maintenace dose once a week at water chang I've been dosing 6ml/10gals.

Marcel


----------



## aquaverde

wantplantsnotwork said:


> I wish the Excel would kill sae's! I also have to remove two bushy nose's, they have developed a fondness for many of my plants, and killed my HUGE sword.


No problem, just have to up the dose a little more. 'Course, it's not discriminant; it'll clear the whole tank.


----------



## inthedeep2

WOW and i mean WOW what a thread.. a whole lot of info here. 
just have a question for you all.. this method doseing excel, it is wise to do it while useing DIY CO2 or not. i have a pretty good break out of BBA and need to kick it in the but. i think it came with my plants i bought. just wanted to know about useing this along with DIY CO2..
thanks everyone


----------



## Jason Baliban

inthedeep2 said:


> WOW and i mean WOW what a thread.. a whole lot of info here.
> just have a question for you all.. this method doseing excel, it is wise to do it while useing DIY CO2 or not. i have a pretty good break out of BBA and need to kick it in the but. i think it came with my plants i bought. just wanted to know about useing this along with DIY CO2..
> thanks everyone


I am currently dosing 3x with CO2 levels in the 30-40ppm range. I am not seeing ill effects to my fish.
jB


----------



## inthedeep2

I am currently dosing 3x with CO2 levels in the 30-40ppm range. I am not seeing ill effects to my fish.
jB


Jason 
are you useing the DIY CO2 method? im sure my fish would be alright from what ive been reading but its a sure think to keep an eye on them of course...


----------



## Jason Baliban

inthedeep2 said:


> Jason
> are you useing the DIY CO2 method? im sure my fish would be alright from what ive been reading but its a sure think to keep an eye on them of course...


I use pressurized. One thing that I failed to mention. I do not believe they are related, but worth mentioning. I have recently had a large die off of NEW rummy nose. The reason I dont believe it is excel related, is because I have used the excel treatment before and have had no ill effects. Moreover, none of the established fish show any stress at all. I think you will be alright. Good luck.
jB


----------



## inthedeep2

well thank you very much now all i have to do is fine a store with excel or break down and order some. really dont want to order it cause the shipping is outrageous for just one item at most stores.


----------



## aquatic-store.com

on a side not make sure you order enough as this stuff goes fast especially if used daily as suggested


----------



## joan

Just wanted to add to the thread and say I have given this a try and, wow! 5 days in and it's just nuking the BBA. My overall amount of BBA had declined due to getting my ferts finally and dosing so that the plants were outcompeting it, and I'd physically removed many affected leaves. But once I started the Excel, the remaining BBA really started to change colour and get weak looking and it's just melting away now. roud: Fish and shrimp seem fine through it all. I'm dosing at 2.5 times the recommended amount.


----------



## donkey

has anyone got anymore updates on how the excel is going


----------



## joan

Nothing left of the BBA except for a few of the faintest, wispy threads. No shrimp or fish fatalities with the 2.5x recommended dose daily. :fish:


----------



## motifone

I'm going to start an Excel routine again. Since starting this thread, I have a few nitpick questions:

1) Per the suggestion of some, how many of you dosed at night after lights off? Is this crucial? Most seem to have been succesful with the Excel, but some haven't, and I wanted to know if "dosing after lights off" was the dealbreaker. Likewise, a couple of you have said lights will slowly "degrade" the Excel. This got me thinking. I was wondering if "lights on" was the key to overdosing one's tank without poisoning the residents. Imagine: 8hrs in the dark of full strength Excel verses light-sensitive Excel dosed with the lights on (quickly degraded and less harmful). Maybe this is a non-issue, but I'd be curious to hear from others.

2) Some of you are continuing weekly maintenance doses after water change: like one full dose after water change and that's it for the week. Now, I know you are suppose to turn off your UVS during the 2 week treatment, but what about during these maintenance doses? Do you leave your UVS off for a day or just leave it on? I run mine at nights only anyway.

3) Dosing. For my 50gallon, I'm thinking (based on Mikes's notes):

Initial dose: 25ml (5ml/per 10 gallon)
Daily dose thereafter: 15ml (3ml/per 10gallon. is that strong enough)?

Some of you have said Excel worked for you, but really didn't list your dosing. Mlemay had some success, but his dosing was like 6.6ml/per 10g. Big difference!!


----------



## joan

Initial dose: 10ml in my 20G (5ml per 10G)
Thereafter: 5ml (2.5ml per 10G)

Dosed with lights on.

The BBA is now completely gone.


----------



## Dwayne

I am about to start dosing excel in my 100g tank to rid the tank of the dreaded BBA. Should I dose 2x, 2.5x or 3x the reccomended dose?

Should I be dosing 50ml per day for 10 days as I have a 500ml bottle.

Thanks,
Dave.


----------



## m.lemay

Dwayne said:


> I am about to start dosing excel in my 100g tank to rid the tank of the dreaded BBA.
> Should I be dosing 50ml per day for 10 days as I have a 500ml bottle.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave.


Yes, that should work. If you have a UV sterilizer, make sure that it's turned off.

Marcel


----------



## imisky

i have a 15gallon tank with this stupid BBA ...grrr when will they just stop comming back. anyways how much would i have to dose to get rid of them?? im thinking about 8-10ml?? for the first 2 weeks everyday. would this be enough??


----------



## pk-sd

Just go with three times the recommended dosage for 2 weeks. It should do the trick. Also increase the amount of CO2 if you can.

Mine every once in a while tries to make a comeback, but 2-3 days of treatment takes care of it.


----------



## joan

imisky said:


> i have a 15gallon tank with this stupid BBA ...grrr when will they just stop comming back. anyways how much would i have to dose to get rid of them?? im thinking about 8-10ml?? for the first 2 weeks everyday. would this be enough??


That's really high dosage actually. See my post above for what I dosed.


----------



## eeng168

*Adverse effect on riccia with Flourish Excel*

Hello All, 

I started using Flourish Excel to combat BBA and also hair algae. On the first day, I tripled the dose to 60ml for my 40 tank. (I have a 40 gallon, 5ml per 10 gallon)

Anyway, lost an octo, 4 big cherry shrimps, and 1 neon. I changed some water, backed it to 50ml and everything seems to be ok. I must say, this stuff really works and it's only been 2-3 days. The BBA is not turning red like for everyone else, but it turns white and I can see it's dying off. Hair algae is slowing shriveling away. One thing though, it seems like my riccia is not as healthy anymore? It's also turning white and only green at the tips as it continues to grow.

Anyone else have this problem? Thanks.


----------



## plantbrain

Riccia, L madagascarensis and a few other plants died back at higher dosings.

Killing your fish is not a wise method

Try focusing on why the BBA is there to begin with rather than killing your livestock.

This will provide better plant health.

Trimming the plants, clean equipment is still needed even if you kill it with Excel. The infested leaves still look bad afterwards.

And if you stop dosing without adding more CO2, the BBA will come back.........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## eeng168

*.*



plantbrain said:


> Riccia, L madagascarensis and a few other plants died back at higher dosings.
> 
> Killing your fish is not a wise method
> 
> Try focusing on why the BBA is there to begin with rather than killing your livestock.
> 
> This will provide better plant health.
> 
> Trimming the plants, clean equipment is still needed even if you kill it with Excel. The infested leaves still look bad afterwards.
> 
> And if you stop dosing without adding more CO2, the BBA will come back.........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



Thanks Tom, will do. I wanted to just use the Flourish to "clean" my tank and now I'm going to get a full CO2 system.


----------



## plantbrain

Excel does not hurt and it does address the CO2 to some degree.........

It's good and not a snake oil treatment for BBA or other algae.
But if you use CO2, use the CO2 __correctly__.............

Don't feel bad, everyone from myself to Amano louses up CO2 every so often.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## imisky

hey guys i have a 15gallon and i dosed 10mls on the first day and 12mls on the 2nd...but the BBA is still the same as usual after the 2nd day... and i know im dosing lots, should i reduce it down to 8mls?? because i dont want the copper sulfate to get to my shrimps


----------



## markstr

Just to let everyone know, I am in to day 16 now,
and pretty much done with the 3x OD on this..
90% plus of hair Algae is gone . (was everywhere)

Just upped CO2 to high 40's to low 50's ( Tom- Plantbrian)
Ferts in check..

Two things though going on: Little Cloudyness of water,
and just a little bit of small "Green Balls" on Rocks..
BGA or??? Took one Rock out and Toothbrushed them off..
Is the 14 days a Cut off for this or???? 
Also- Cloudyness of water due to ?? I believe the treatment itself.


----------



## donkey

Cloudyness is from to much co2


----------



## axl

*Flourish Excel does it work????*

Hi,
i have started using floursih excel 7 days ago to control BBA and havent noticed anything different yet. Im using 3 cap fulls or roughly 14ml per 280ltr and want to no how long before i notice the algea dying?????
cheers axl


----------



## BSS

I need to start a similar thread myself. I've been dosing at 4x the recommended amount for over two weeks now, and though I've seem some improvements, I'm not seeing it die off as quickly as many others have reported. Many state they see it changing colors in a single 24 hour period. So, why isn't mine :icon_frow ?

If my calculations are correct, you're only dosing around 2x the recommended amount. Most on the longer Excel thread recommend 3x. I'm taking more of a risk jumping up to 4x (based on all I've read).

Good luck!
Brian.


----------



## axl

On my bottle is says 1 capful per 250ltr of water, what does your label say


----------



## BSS

I'll try to remember to check when I get home tonight. I thought the 'maintenance' dose was one capful (5ml) per 50gallons, which I believe is < 200 l.


----------



## pipefish

I tried the seachem excel on my 20g along with diy co2 and the first time i dosed at 4x and i did notice the BBA dying off but my ladder messed up again and i tried dosing at 4x again along with 25ppm of co2 but nothing happened. I've also heard that it works for some people but not others, i myself have seen it work and not work. What i would do is just pump up the co2 and try the usual way and if you want throw in some excel also. (sorry if this didn't help you but i just wanted to tell you my experience with the treatment)


----------



## BSS

I've had my CO2 elevated to ~50ppm for more than a couple of months now, and my algae wasn't really affected. Tonight, it seems like it's getting marginally better...and that's with nearly 3 weeks of elevated Excel treatments.

Oh, and my bottle of Excel states 5 ml per 200l (or 50g*) of tank volume. FWIW.

Brian.


----------



## Quincymom

Okay, I am confused,(what' new?). The bottle says initial use or > 40% water change to dose 5 ml/10 gallons. After that, dose 5 ml/50 gallons. Which doseage are you basing your 2X and 3X to control your algae?


----------



## malkore

Are the rest of your macronutrients good and balanced? (10:1 ~ 15:1 ratio of nitrate to phosphate)

If that's outta whack, no amount of Excel is going to magically fix your algae blooms. Its merely a piece of the puzzle.


----------



## axl

Hi,
yep my macrros are balanced my nitrate level is about 15 and my phosphate level is 1, the algea isnt to bad in the tank its just over the anubius and java moss and a few crypts, so i have trimmed all the affected leaves and have ordered some algea eater fish, so hopefully there hungry
cheers axl


----------



## djlen

Are you dosing it consistently. Just dosing at water change time is not going to do it. 
I have found that if you are consistent and have patience the BBA will recede and eventually disappear. I use it in conjunction with CO2 injection and it's worked in a 10 gal. and in a 55 gal. at lower levels than recommended on the bottle.

Len


----------



## axl

Yeah im dosing everyday with 5 cap per day now


----------



## platypus

*Extended Use of Excel?*

Greetings everyone! 

There's no doubt in my mind that Flourish Excel works to control Beard Algae. I was at my wit's end until I tried the Excel treatment, and it's worked wonders. I still have some Beard Algae which refuses to die gracefully, but it's under control and actually seems to add to the beauty of the tank (since it's on the driftwood). Truth be told, I wish I could get rid of it all, but I'll take what I can get!

Now, my question is... I've been continuing to add a couple capfuls of Excel into my thirty gallon everyday, as a preventative measure. This has been going on for three or four months. I've got a couple of DIY CO2 bottles going at all times, and I do about 25% weekly water change. My plants are thriving.

Even with the water changes, I get this nagging feeling that certain chemicals are building up in my tank. Recently, my flagfish died for no apparent reason, and although his death could be for a million reasons, I wonder if it had something to do with my own liberal use of Excel. I've also lost three or four small tetras over the past few months, into that great void where small fish seem to disappear to. All of my tetras had been in my tanks for nearly a year without problems, so the timing was a little suspicious. Other fish are doing fine. 

So... Is Flourish Excel "safe" to use for extended periods? Am I just asking for trouble? Do any of you continue to use it even after your algae problems have disappeared? I think it's a great product, regardless. 

Thanks for your input!

:icon_bigg


----------



## Rizos

This is just the info I've been looking for! I was about to start to rip plants :icon_frow 

One question: during the 10-12 day treatment period, do you continue with the "normal" water change schedule?

Thanks


----------



## EricSilver

Excel works great but, as has been said, once you stop using it the algae returns. I think the real cause of persistent algae is a too-heavy fish load. 

In another thread I posted about how my water quality improved remarkably after the loss of two full-grown angels. When they were in the tank I was cleaning algae from the glass every two or three days, even with weekly 20% water changes. The angels have been gone for about two weeks, and I have not removed any algae since. 

The only other fish I have are 4 cories, 2 otos, 6 rummy nose, and 3 black phantom tetras. Even with the angels, this seems like a light load for a 29-gal, but it was evidently excessive. The algae prospered, and my plants suffered.

I will almost certainly add a few (3 or 4) more tetras -- or 2 or 3 cories (the angels were the greatest bottom feeders and I need to make up for the loss ) but that is it. No more heavy waste producers for me.


----------



## istellas

*Stupid question*

I am going to make a very stupid question but this subject is really in my interest. 
What is Flourish Excel? I tried to translate it in Greek in order to explain it to my local pet shop but unfortunately no luck! 
Can you please be more specific? 
Can you name this products' name (i.e. Sera vipachips) 
(The best would be that I could have it translationed in Greek :icon_bigg , but I don't expect miracles!!!)

Thank you very much for your patience...


----------



## bgssamson

Here's a link for the pics.! if you want to check the main site just type in seachem.com.

http://www.seachem.com/products/product_pages/FlourishExcel.html

-brian



istellas said:


> I am going to make a very stupid question but this subject is really in my interest.
> What is Flourish Excel? I tried to translate it in Greek in order to explain it to my local pet shop but unfortunately no luck!
> Can you please be more specific?
> Can you name this products' name (i.e. Sera vipachips)
> (The best would be that I could have it translationed in Greek :icon_bigg , but I don't expect miracles!!!)
> 
> Thank you very much for your patience...


----------



## Barbels

*Many fish losses yet?*

Updates?
m.lemay, wantplantsnotwork, anybody, for that matter: Have you guys had many fish losses yet? 
Can anyone tell me if they've used Excel at 6.6ml/gal safely with Cardinals, Otos or Dwarf Loaches?
Thank you.


----------



## m.lemay

Barbels said:


> Updates?
> m.lemay, wantplantsnotwork, anybody, for that matter: Have you guys had many fish losses yet?
> Can anyone tell me if they've used Excel at 6.6ml/gal safely with Cardinals, Otos or Dwarf Loaches?
> Thank you.


I've used as much with boeseamani rainbows,rasboras, and rams. I did lose 2 plecos,a rubber mouth and a peppermint. I don't know if they both died from the excel because I only found thier carcasses 3-4 weeks after treatment, I also had a high co2 incident in that time period, so I'm not sure what killed them. But none of the other fish seemed stressed. Even the ottos were fine. Be careful and watch the fish.

Marcel


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

*All the fish seem happy.*

I had a squad of ghost shrimp that up and died, but my bushy nose seem to be eating even more of my swords. 
The Angel fish have a new bunch of 'wigglin babys as I type, so the water must be somewhat pleasant for them.

I only add 90 mls to the tank every two weeks or maybe three, at a 60 % wc.

Excel was my magic bullet, but it must be a silver one. The dang stuff is pricey!


----------



## BSS

I've been dosing Excel at 4 ml/gal (20 ml nightly in a 46g) for close to a month now. It took about three weeks for the Excel to really get the upper hand, but the tank is looking *much* improved now. I've got cardinals, rummy nose, rasboras, assorted corys, 3 varieties of botias and a bristlenose plec. Oh, and I've got glass/ghost shrimp and some red cherry shrimp. The only casualty I've had is to a grossly oversized and pretty lazy SAE. I'm guessing it was just her time. Aside from that, I can't recall any deaths during my extended treatment.


----------



## Lissette

A very interesting thread. I wish I would have read it sooner.

I've decided to join you guys and do a little testing of my own, so, I've ordered a 500ml bottle from the lfs.

However, I'm not sure how much to dose in my 29 gal. My co2 is at 30 ppm and I still get this stuff on my driftwood. Lately, it's been growing on my hairgrass and it's driving me bonkers. I've prunned the hell out of it, and cleaned up the tank.

How much should I dose? I have shrimps, so I want to be careful.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

Lissette :wink:


----------



## Momotaro

Normal dose would be 1ml per 50G. So, you would dose about 2.5ml for your 29G normally. If you are going to "overdose" you would look to double or triple the normal dose.

My suggestion to you would be to just double the normal dose, about 5ml. I really believe tripling puts fish and most certainly shrimps at risk.

Also, the idea of using the Flourish Excel to battle algae was to use the product for a 10-12 day period to kill off algae. It shouldn't be used as a consistent program.

Mike


----------



## Lissette

Thanks Momotaro. 

I'll follow your advice and see if the Excel works. I certainly hope so. I want to come back and give you some positive feedback on it.

Wish me luck.

Lissette


----------



## BSS

FWIW, I've just come to the conclusion that though my GH>10, my tank has been Mg starved! I'll start another thread with some of the specifics. But, that could be a contributor to why I wasn't see differing Excel results from others on this thread.

I'd always wondered why my tank just seemed to be 'different'. Hopefully, this will be the missing ingrediant!!
Brian.


----------



## fatbysl

I know this is an old thread but i just came across it. Anyways im having the same problems with bba as everone else. My concern is killing my sae cost me $7.00 but i had to get them out of town. Anyways here what im going to do i will dose excel 2x the normal dose or can i dose 3x and be all right? I will unplug my uv. and i think im going to dose at night when the lights turn off. Hopefully this get a handle on this nasty stuff. If you see any problems with this let me know.


----------



## Momotaro

If you are going to overdose the flourish Excel, I'd recommend only 2xs, 3xs is a bit too much.

Mike


----------



## fatbysl

is it better to dose at night or in the day or does it not matter when you dose?


----------



## fatbysl

*Flourish excel*

Have bba outbreak and been dosing flourish excel now for five days. I have not seen much improvment was wondering if im dosing the right amount i been dosing 25ml every day i think thats 2x the amount. Just wondering if someone could help.


----------



## mrkho

2x the amount isnt enough, it is said 5x the amount is best, and or riase your co2 to 30-40ppm


----------



## brad

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20172


----------



## zelmo

Rizos said:


> One question: during the 10-12 day treatment period, do you continue with the "normal" water change schedule?
> 
> Thanks


I didn't see this question answered. Do you do a normal WC, and if so, do you bump up the dose for that day?


----------



## Momotaro

The normal post water change dose of Flourish Excel is pretty elevated. I wouldn't triple the already high dose. Do a normal water change and dose the Excel according to the directions for a normal water change. the increase the dosage for the days subsequent to the water change.

Mike


----------



## eeng168

I used the Flourish Excel again and lost most of my riccia again. I didn't learn from the first time. 

It all just turned white....


----------



## rrguymon

I ordered a 2 liter bottle today. I don't have bba but I got some fuzz and hair algae that is driving me nuts. I hope this will kill it for good. I remove as much as I can but it just keeps growing. If I miss a piece it spreads like wild fire. I will never be able to get it all. I I don't pick the hair algae out it it will cover every thing in just a couple days. 

From reading the thread I think I have gleaned that most dose per the instuctions on water change day and then 2x to 2x on the other days?


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

Eeng, It all depends if you want to march off into battle. Me, if I lose a plant, and the others are doing GREAT, I just say to myself, that's not a plant for me!

I know this wont sail for people that have the manicured look, then your going to have to fight the battle, and find something that works for YOU.

But, as my handle implies, I am always looking for the easy way out. Looks great, less filling.


----------



## eeng168

wantplantsnotwork said:


> Eeng, It all depends if you want to march off into battle. Me, if I lose a plant, and the others are doing GREAT, I just say to myself, that's not a plant for me!
> 
> I know this wont sail for people that have the manicured look, then your going to have to fight the battle, and find something that works for YOU.
> 
> But, as my handle implies, I am always looking for the easy way out. Looks great, less filling.


I was just a little upset because the riccia was growing really nicely, had it trimmed nicely and tied and just overnight, half of it was gones because of the Excel. On top of that, the hair algae was pearling. too funny...

It grows back fast so I'll be ok..hahahaa...

but you're right...the rest of the tank is doing beautifully. My moneywort seems to grow about an inch every 2 days. I might eventually get rid of all the riccia and try H.C. or christmas moss...

take care...


----------



## rrguymon

Well My 2 liter bottle of excel came in. However, I don't have that much algae left to kill  . I think I got a handle on it so I just hang on to the excel I guess. Looks like I might have wasted 30 bucks lol.

Rick


----------



## DarkCobra

Sorry to resurrect this thread yet again, but I just found it. :icon_redf 

I have never used Excel as an algicide or otherwise, but I have used hydrogen peroxide (H2O2).

It seems like Excel and H2O2 have a lot in common. Both act as broad-spectrum biocides. Both seem to work their way up the evolutionary ladder with increasing doses - algae, mosses/riccia and delicate plants, shrimp, most plants, most fish, everything.

With H2O2, it's common practice to squirt it directly on patches of algae with a syringe to maximize its effect there, while minimizing the impact on the rest of the tank.

So here's my stupid question. Has anyone tried squirting Excel directly on algae?


----------



## m.lemay

DarkCobra said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread yet again, but I just found it. :icon_redf


IMO it's always better to ressurect an old thread especially one as large as this with so much pertinent information. It keeps all the relevant info in one neat little package. So don't feel embarrassed about it.


DarkCobra said:


> I have never used Excel as an algicide or otherwise, but I have used hydrogen peroxide (H2O2).
> 
> It seems like Excel and H2O2 have a lot in common. Both act as broad-spectrum biocides. Both seem to work their way up the evolutionary ladder with increasing doses - algae, mosses/riccia and delicate plants, shrimp, most plants, most fish, everything.
> 
> With H2O2, it's common practice to squirt it directly on patches of algae with a syringe to maximize its effect there, while minimizing the impact on the rest of the tank.
> 
> So here's my stupid question. Has anyone tried squirting Excel directly on algae?


 I haven't tried that yet. I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm currently fighting some BBA on the rocks in my tank. If you're going to do a localized treatment, it's always best to shut off the filters for a while to allow the agent to contact the affected area for as long as possible. I don't see why it wouldn't work better than the broadcast method.

Marcel


----------



## BSS

m.lemay said:


> I haven't tried that yet. I'm gonna give it a shot. I'm currently fighting some BBA on the rocks in my tank. If you're going to do a localized treatment, it's always best to shut off the filters for a while to allow the agent to contact the affected area for as long as possible. I don't see why it wouldn't work better than the broadcast method.


I've not had the great success (only slow, limited help...not eradication) with this approach that many others seem to have (yet another case of my tank being 'different' :icon_roll ), but I've got exactly what Marcel describes now. I'll give this one a shot also!

Brian.


----------



## A Hill

i just found this thread... (?how did i miss it?) and bba is my main plant in my 10g tank atm:icon_cry: ive been slowly battling it for months then i hear about excel! ive forgotten to buy it twice in the past two trips to the lfs.. 3 days.. so hopefully ill remember to get it my next trip

thanks for the info guys
fish newb


----------



## hedge_fund

very interesting and informative thread....this should be a sticky


----------



## m.lemay

I did the spot treatment on a few rocks. I used 50ml in my 75G and spot treated the rocks with a syringe with the filters off. The BBA turned red within 24hrs and then it turned gray. I have other rocks in the same tank that I did not spot treat as a sort of control. The BBA on the spot treated rocks definitely looks different than that of the untreated rocks. Only time will tell wether this is a better, more effective route to take.

PS: this is now a sticky.:thumbsup: 

Marcel


----------



## DarkCobra

m.lemay said:


> The BBA on the spot treated rocks definitely looks different than that of the untreated rocks.


That is great news! If other people can duplicate these results, perhaps this will be a safer method of using Excel to treat algae, for people who have plants sensitive to Excel overdoses.


----------



## zelmo

The only problem with this thread is that because it is so long it is difficult to check to see if something has already been posted.

Sorry if this is redundant. Here is the link to Seachem's FAQ on Excel.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/FlourishExcel_faq.html


----------



## m.lemay

zelmo said:


> The only problem with this thread is that because it is so long it is difficult to check to see if something has already been posted.
> 
> Sorry if this is redundant. Here is the link to Seachem's FAQ on Excel.
> 
> http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/FlourishExcel_faq.html


Yeah but all the info is in one place, which beats looking thru 10 different threads for answers.


----------



## m.lemay

*Update*

The excel spot treatment is working better than anything I've tried so far. 

I've used the excel overdose treatment before but it took a long time to see results. 2 weeks usually. It never quite got rid of the some of the stubborn spots.

The nice thing about the spot treatment is that I can focus excel contact on the worse affected areas with the secondary benefit of being able to leave the excel in the water column as an overdose treatment. Unlike The Hydrogen peroxide treatment, excel can be left in the tank to continue performing it's magic.

BBA is totally gone on the rocks that I spot treated. The rocks that I have not spot treated still have lots of BBA on them. This is all in the same 75g tank. This is exciting stuff.

So heres what I do:

I take 50ml of excel and put it into a cup. (that equals approx 6.6ml/10gals)
which is what I'v used in the pasdt for the overdose treatment.

Shut down the filters to minimize circulation for improved contact time.

Next I take a medicine syringe and draw from the cup and proceed to infuse the affected areas with excel. I try to get it right into the rock as much as possible so some of it might get absorbed into the rock. I treat only as much as I can get done with the 50ml in one treatment.

Leave the filters off for a few minutes after treatment, then turn them back on.

If I need to do more I'll have to wait till the next day so as not to kill any fish.

I'm simply amazed at how effective this method works.

I'm gonna try to get some pictures up so that you guys can see the difference between the spot treated areas and the non spot treated areas...It's astounding.:thumbsup: 

Marcel


----------



## DarkCobra

m.lemay said:


> Unlike The Hydrogen peroxide treatment, excel can be left in the tank to continue performing it's magic.


On that I disagree. 

H2O2 can also be dosed like Excel usually is - directly into the water column and left there. I have done it, and in my experience the effects are identical in every respect to what everyone here is describing from Excel overdoses.

But people don't use H2O2 for a water column treatment - just like people don't use Excel for spot treatments. Why not? It's not because it doesn't work. It's only because not enough people have tried and reported on these usages for them to enter the mainstream.

I have made several posts on this forum detailing the use of H2O2 as a spot treatment or as a plant dip. I was planning on also performing some controlled experiments using H2O2 as a water-column treatment and posting results.

That was before I found this thread and the algicidal properties of Excel. Why has my interest in H2O2 waned?

First, although it's too early to tell for sure, Excel appears effective as an in-tank spot treatment - an area in which H2O2 was previously unchallenged. I'll bet anyone a steak dinner that in the end, it will prove equally effective.

Second, breakdown of H2O2 produces water and oxygen, which we don't really need; but breakdown of gluteraldehyde (Excel) produces water and CO2, which is useful to plants.

Third is the mechanism by which it kills. H2O2 is a clearly an oxidant. Gluteralehyde is not as well understood, but is generally believed to work by crosslinking proteins. This is an important difference. H2O2 could potentially oxidize and remove nutrients from the water column; whereas Excel could not, because none of the nutrients are protein-based.

With that in mind, it may turn out that the only advantages H2O2 has over Excel is availability and price.

Keep those results coming, I think this will be a positive development for our hobby. *Thank you Marcel* for being the first to try it and providing detailed reports!

I'll join you as soon as I can. Some of my LFS used to carry Excel, but now that I actually want a bottle, it seems they've all stopped carrying it. Grr!


----------



## m.lemay

The main advantage for using Excel over H2o2 is that it's beneficial to the plants also. 
H2o2s ability to kill bba is well documented but most people advocate performing a water change immediately after treatment to reduce the concentrations in the tank. What happens when H2o2 is left in the tank....I don't know, and I don't know of anyone thats tried it. H202s safety to plants and fish is questionable. Many here havetried the excel overdose method with great success with a few losses but we know what those are.

But the thing that excites me the most about using Excel is that the plants just look better and healthier when I use it.

Here's a pic. The smallrock on the left was treated with the excel spot treatment one time. The rock on the right side did not get the spot treatment but it did get the "excel overdose effect" from the residual excel in the water column. I also would like to note that the rock on the right is better than it was before treatment but still no where as dramatic an effect as with the spot treatment right next door.


----------



## DarkCobra

m.lemay said:


> What happens when H2o2 is left in the tank....I don't know, and I don't know of anyone thats tried it.


LOL! Am I invisible? I'm right here, I just said I've tried it! <waves frantically> Years ago, I used to dose H2O2 directly in the water column *daily* and not remove it.

Or if I'm still too much of a noob to qualify as "anyone", you could ask Tom Barr. Here he is saying he's thinking about adding H2O2 directly to his sump, and talking to someone else about adding it to an aquarium via IV drip!

Or you can search the web and Usenet and find dozens of other people who have all documented their experiences with leaving H2O2 in the tank.

The idea of doing a water change after treatment was never to remove the H2O2. It originated way back in the days when everyone agreed that excessive nutrients were the cause of algae growth, and that a water change was necessary to remove the nutrients released by the destroyed algae.



m.lemay said:


> H202s safety to plants and fish is questionable.


No more so than formaldehyde, which is what the active ingredient of Excel essentially is. Strange how you can package the stuff as a plant fertilizer and everyone loves it, but if you package it as a medication (Formalin) it's suddenly an evil chemical that you should use with utmost caution.

The dose makes the poison. Both H2O2 and Excel will kill every living thing in your tank at too high a dose. Both will do nothing at too low a dose. Both have the potential to selectively kill algae at just the right dose.

My point is this. If you bias yourself to one treatment and reject the other without educating yourself, you're only depriving yourself of a valuable source of information which can be applied to *both*. Had I done so, I wouldn't have made the connection, come here, and suggested using Excel as a spot treatment. You're welcome for the idea, btw.


----------



## m.lemay

Whats all the hostility dude. 

Sorry I missed that part in your post that you routinely left h2o2 in your tank. All the info that I've read regarding H2o2 suggests performing a water change after the treatment, which BTW has nothing to do with excess nutrients, but it has everything to do with removing the h202. The article was written fairly recently by GPODIO, I'll see if I can find it. http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.aspYou obviously have way more experience with h2o2 than I. 

This particular thread isn't about H2o2, its about the use of excel. 

There's a thread on this board about the use of h2o2 for BBA removal. That thread is here:http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22860&highlight=peroxide Perhaps you could add to the knowledge base about h2o2 over there.


----------



## DarkCobra

m.lemay said:


> Whats all the hostility dude.


My apologies.



m.lemay said:


> This particular thread isn't about H2o2, its about the use of excel.


I know. Wasn't trying to hijack the thread, just comparing and contrasting the two treatments. A good idea for using Excel came out of it, maybe there's more. But since you feel this is outside the scope of this thread, if I have anything else to add I'll post it elsewhere.


----------



## [RK]

Im on day 7 of my treatment and the BBA is practically gone. Hair algae is disppearing too. The bits that are left are the dead clumps. Most on my java moss and hairgrass. which i cant pull out or i'll damage the plants. i cant believe how beneficial Excel is. Even GSA is much lower than usual. I wonder what will happen once i stop the overdosing. Does anyone dose excel regularly even though they have pressurised Co2?


----------



## EricSilver

[RK] said:


> I wonder what will happen once i stop the overdosing.


Unless you eliminate the conditions that enabled the algae to occur, it will return after you stop overdosing. There is no way to totally eradicate it, but you can reduce its population to the point of invisibility.


----------



## BSS

I tried the spot treatment of Excel with my WC on Monday night. FINALLY! This is the first time I've actually noticed the BBA changing color after a treatment. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm hoping now I don't need to do daily doses, just do spot treatments at every WC. Good stuff!!

Per the comment just above, I still have no clue why my BBA continues to show up. It's not really excessive, so maybe I'm just being a bit anal. Naw...that couldn't be :icon_roll .


----------



## m.lemay

BSS said:


> I tried the spot treatment of Excel with my WC on Monday night. FINALLY! This is the first time I've actually noticed the BBA changing color after a treatment. I'm pretty excited about it. I'm hoping now I don't need to do daily doses, just do spot treatments at every WC. Good stuff!!
> 
> Per the comment just above, I still have no clue why my BBA continues to show up. It's not really excessive, so maybe I'm just being a bit anal. Naw...that couldn't be :icon_roll .


The spot treatment works awesome. By your next treatment it'll be easy to determine the spots you missed and you'll be able to treat those areas.

I'm not sure why my bba keeps coming back either. I gotta tell ya that I'd never even seen BBA before I switched my substrate over to Eco-complete. I had flourish substrate before and I never had BBA. I wonder if there's a link. I may put up a poll. I'd be interested to hear from you guys, with BBA, on what substrate your using.

Marcel


----------



## adamjh

m.lemay said:


> . . . I switched my substrate over to Eco-complete. I had flourish substrate before. . .
> 
> Marcel



So what made you switch over in the first place? It seems like changing substrate would be a BIG hassel unless you had a really good reason to do it.


----------



## Bert H

I see folks using it as a spot treatment on their rocks and hardscape very successfully. Do you see the same results if you spot treat on leaves, etc? In other words, any damage to the plant if the algae is on the plant and spot treat that way?


----------



## m.lemay

adamjh said:


> So what made you switch over in the first place. It seems like changing substrate would be a BIG hassel unless you had a really good reason to do it.


I wanted a black substrate. That was really the main reason. The secondary reason was that the flourite was mixed 50/50 with gravel which was messing with my KH. The gravel had calcium carbonate mixed in which was the problem. The flourite was fine except for the color. I figured I'd kill 2 birds with one stone. It was mainly for aesthetic reasons and a stable kh.

Marcel


----------



## BSS

Bert H said:


> Do you see the same results if you spot treat on leaves, etc? In other words, any damage to the plant if the algae is on the plant and spot treat that way?


I was a little squirt happy with my first application, so I don't completely recall where all I sprayed it :eek5: . It looks like some of my ever-ragged A. reineckii leaves didn't fair too well, but they were shoddy anyway. There are a few smallish A. nana leaves I know I sprayed, and I see little affects on them (including the algae, though I might need to give that more time!). I also sprayed another plant or two, but don't see excessive leaf die-off.

I'll be a bit more 'controlled' next time and will report back! Good question!


----------



## trckrunrmike

How much should I dose for a 20 gallon? And how do you measure how many mLs you have? using the cap threads?


----------



## [RK]

for my 24gallon i did 3 capfuls a day.

If i had the money i'd keep on doing that throughout the tanks life, cause the results are soooo good! but unfortunately Excel is pretty expensive


----------



## BSS

On a WC, you use 5 ml per every 10 gals. The instructions say to use a capful, BUT the capful on the bigger bottles is actually 10ml, not 5ml like the smaller bottles.


----------



## A Hill

well i finally remembered to get some flourish. when i got home that day i had already moved all the fishies to my 55g so i had no worries about them. so the first day i did a bit over 3 capfulls the next day i did the same the day after that i did 4 capfulls and i did 3 today. its working GREAT! all the algea is dieing or about to die. mine turned a deep purple/blue color before dieing. no red here? it worked fast for me compared to most people but then again this is only a 10g tank and i did no water changes through this whole thing so far!

THANKS FOR EVERYONE WHO POSTED ON THIS!:icon_eek: you really helped me. i thought this battle was never going to end........

thanks ALOT!

-=- fish newb -=-


----------



## stcyrwm

Fish Newb said:


> well i finally remembered to get some flourish. when i got home that day i had already moved all the fishies to my 55g so i had no worries about them. so the first day i did a bit over 3 capfulls the next day i did the same the day after that i did 4 capfulls and i did 3 today. its working GREAT! all the algea is dieing or about to die. mine turned a deep purple/blue color before dieing. no red here? it worked fast for me compared to most people but then again this is only a 10g tank and i did no water changes through this whole thing so far!
> 
> THANKS FOR EVERYONE WHO POSTED ON THIS!:icon_eek: you really helped me. i thought this battle was never going to end........
> 
> thanks ALOT!
> 
> -=- fish newb -=-


What kind of algae did you have?

Thanks, Bill


----------



## m.lemay

stcyrwm said:


> What kind of algae did you have?
> 
> Thanks, Bill


This entire thread is dedicated to using excel to eradicate BBA (black beard algae). I'm pretty sure that's what his algae is.


----------



## riverrat

Thanks to this thread I have used excel overdose a couple weeks ago successfully. I trimed out alot after I finished the treatment. I now see a few persistent spots left on some hygro.cory. I will start spot treatment and report back with my results.


riverrat


----------



## [RK]

Excel got rid of BBA, Staghorne, and even GSA for me!

But now that i have stopped the dosing, i bet they will all come back


----------



## trckrunrmike

okay BBA and staghorn is not dying from 2 capfuls a day on a 20 gallon.


----------



## BSS

trckrunrmike said:


> okay BBA and staghorn is not dying from 2 capfuls a day on a 20 gallon.


I never got a noticeable improvement when I just dropped capfuls into the tank. But, my first attempt at spot treating (applying the same amount, just directing most of it at visible algae with the filter turned off), showed results by the next day.

Give it a try and report back!


----------



## rbittman

*Excel and hair algae*

I started the Excel treatment (overdosing for 2 weeks) one week ago and the results are dramatic. I had had a long-standing battle with hair algae, pulling out major handfuls on a daily basis, for at least 3 years. I tried everything, tweaking nutrients, monitoring everything, UV filter, more water changes, etc. Nothing worked. Indeed, it seemed the very same conditions favoring the higher plants, also greatly favored hair algae, as others pointed out.

I have a 40 gallon tank and have been adding Excel at the rate of 3 capfuls per day for 6 days. I turned off the UV filter. There is currently NO hair algae I can see. I did continue to clean it out for the first few days, but I no longer need to pull it out; there isn't any. There is still some (soft) glass algae, but that is normal in my opinion. I am amazed!

Does anyone out there with a uv filter, finally turn it back on when they stop overdosing Excel and continue to add Excel at the recommended rate (which would be 1 capful/day for me)??

Thanks for everyone's experience!

Roxanne


----------



## zelmo

m.lemay said:


> I'm not sure why my bba keeps coming back either.


Marcel -

You were in on this thread back at its start. When you stopped the overdose treatment did you continue to add any Excel? If so, at what dose? How long did it take for bba to come back?


----------



## m.lemay

No not really. I would add some at water change time only since I have a pressurized co2 system. The reason I don't want to use excel all the time is that it's expensive and I don't want the algae to become resistant to the treatment. I prefer to treat the tank only when a problem rears its ugly head.


----------



## Betowess

Well, I'm certainly glad this thread is a sticky. Been meaning to read this for a long time.

A few years back I licked BBA with a new reactor and pressurized CO2 in my 26G. But it was a bit different looking BBA. Until now in my newer 90, I have not had it at all. Yet I did have a fairly bright red algae on the spray bar which is now gone. Go figure... Now BBA's ugly head is re-appearing on both my bog-wood and also on the edges of older leaves of Anubia and some oldest leaves on my Crypt balansae (which is not a very old plant in my possession (4 or 5 months). 

So tonight I have ordered the two liter Excell. I'm looking forward to this panacea and hope it helps wipe out some persistent fuzz algae. I have recently shortened the photo period and the other parms are in order. Thanks to all who have shared this recipe. Great thread!

I am thinking I'll start with about 55ml per day for 10 to 12 days (90G). I might spray the dose directly to the bog wood with a syringe. Does this sound about right or maybe not that high at first?


----------



## m.lemay

Betowess said:


> I am thinking I'll start with about 55ml per day for 10 to 12 days (90G). I might spray the dose directly to the bog wood with a syringe. Does this sound about right or maybe not that high at first?


In a 90G 55ml. should be safe. I dose 50ml in mt 75G. After trying both methods, I prefer the spot treatment with the syringe. If your tank is not terribly infested you don't have to treat every day. I spot treat as much as I can with 50ml, then wait a couple days for the treated areas to turn red, which gives me a visual indication of what areas have been missed. Then treat the missed areas. Repeat this as many times as necessary.

Always turn off all circulation when doing the spot treatment to extend the contact time of the excel with the affected areas. Turn it back on after 5-10 minutes. 

Also a small tip: when refilling the syringe be sure that the back side of the syringe is empty of water or you will progressively dilute the excel in the container as you draw back the syringe.:icon_redf :thumbsup:


----------



## cbennett

I developed a REALLY bad case of BBA several months ago due to having CO2 disconnected for several weeks due to moving (plus only having DIY CO2 at that). After finding this thread I started doing 2-3x overdose regimen (to the water column) but the change was slight. Then I changed to turning off the filter and every day injecting the same amount of Excel but right up against the evil black tufts, changing which locations I did a little bit each day. This routine was the magic bullet. Depending on how bad the item was engulfed in BBA and how far it was to the CO2 source and light, the BBA would turn red and then WHITE white within a couple of days. Once it was white it would either get eaten by my ancistrus, shrimp and snails or would just sort of disintegrate. The BBA that is in low light areas far away from the CO2 takes a couple extra days but is definitely turning red. I don't see any new growth of BBA on any new leaves or tank walls (switching to pressurized CO2 was definitely part of the fix). 

It was baaad before. Like, REALLY bad. Someday, I'll be brave enough to post pictures.


----------



## Betowess

OK, this is a very sweet "cure". I had about 1/4 of a 250ml bottle of Excel laying around. At least 2 or more years old. So even though my 2 liter Excel won't show up for another 7 or 8 days, I tried a topical spray with syringe. Four squirts of 10ml on some of the biggest BBA puffs.. They are already turning red in 11 or 12 hours. Finally, an easy way to lick this stuff. Yahoo!


----------



## julesann

Great advice. Thanks!


----------



## hir0

I had some BBA. I did a 2 week excel treatment and it seemed to work. Well, it might have worked, because I also increased my co2 a lot in the same time frame. Not sure what got rid of it to be honest.


----------



## Mustang5L5

Just found this thread. Been suffering with BBA now for the last few months. Did a major prune-back and got it off most of my plants but i have a peice of driftwood covered in the stuff. 

I was running DIY CO2 but then just stopped when i was not around much to maintain it. Just recently started it back up and that alone cause a small portion of the BBA to turn red on it's own. 

Just picked up a bottle of Excel today and began dosing. I'm gonna try to get a syringe to spot dose it into my driftwood that it is infesting mainly. Where do you guys get synringes? I assume they are they kind you would get in a pharmacy to dose liquid medications?


----------



## m.lemay

Mustang5L5 said:


> I assume they are they kind you would get in a pharmacy to dose liquid medications?


Yep, those are the ones.


----------



## Mustang5L5

Ok, day 2 of the Excel treatment. Day 1 was an initial dose to the tank while day 2 i began spot treating my affected areas. I did the spot treat before lights out. No change as of yet but i'll keep you updated. 

PS. Before pictures

http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=772118
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=772117


----------



## Betowess

I noticed a C. balansae leaf that was quite close to the treatment area completely melted and some HC nearby didn't like it either and possibly some Marselia. I think I'm going to pull my bogwood out to treat it and try the whole tank method so as not to shock too much of the flora. BTW, the BBA which was treated on my bogwood is quite toast first turning red, then white, and now evaporating a few days later. I only had enough Excel to spot treat my bogwood once. First of next week my Drs. Foster & Smith's sale priced Excel will show up and treatment will resume.


----------



## Alight

Just saw in a post that Fluorish Excel can damage or kill moss. Can anyone here verify that, and tell me if normal dosing of Excel will do this, or is this caused by overdosing? 


Thanks, Al Light


----------



## m.lemay

Alight said:


> Just saw in a post that Fluorish Excel can damage or kill moss. Can anyone here verify that, and tell me if normal dosing of Excel will do this, or is this caused by overdosing?
> 
> 
> Thanks, Al Light


Normal dosing of excel is not dangerous to flora or fauna. Overdosing can be risky to both if its not done carefully.


----------



## Betowess

Marcel, do you suggest the syringe method more for rocks and bogwood, not for plant leaves?


----------



## m.lemay

Betowess said:


> Marcel, do you suggest the syringe method more for rocks and bogwood, not for plant leaves?


I never tried the syringe method on plants because the BGA only affects the deco and equipment in my tank. 

Theres only one way of knowing...try it on one leaf and see what it does. The worst that'll happen is kill the leaf.

Marcel


----------



## Betowess

Thanks, Marcel... Just being in the proximity melted parts of a C. balansae so I think I'll save the syringe for spot treatment on bogwood, perhaps taken out of the tank.


----------



## Mustang5L5

Third Dose tonight (2nd spot treatment). I already notice some of the BBA turning from black to a purple/red. Awesome, that means it's working. 

I have a small sword with growth on it's leaves. Tonight i spot treated 1 leaf to see what happens. I'll let you know


----------



## trckrunrmike

Arg. I did a treatment of it but it came back :-/


----------



## Mustang5L5

4th treatment (3rd spot) 


It's all red!! Haha i love it. There are a few spots that are still black, but i'll spot treat those tomorrow. My 2 swords that have some BBA on their leaves are doing fine and the BBA on the leaves is turning red. SOme of it is starting to turn white as well and my fish are starting to pick at it!


----------



## spinnerbayt

I just finished doing my 2.5x OD spot treatment in my tank and let me tell you that is works like a charm. My driftwood covered and some of my crypts had it on their leaves so I shut off my filters and treated they worst spots till the tank had 2.5x the dosage and then waited about 5 minutes and turned the filters back on after day 1 the BBA was eather red or purple. Now after day 10 it is gone... DID YOU HEAR ME... GONE!!! If all else fails this method rocks. The spot treatment is a great way to get a jump on the BBA.


----------



## Betowess

Mustang5L5 said:


> 4th treatment (3rd spot)
> 
> 
> It's all red!! Haha i love it. There are a few spots that are still black, but i'll spot treat those tomorrow. My 2 swords that have some BBA on their leaves are doing fine and the BBA on the leaves is turning red. SOme of it is starting to turn white as well and my fish are starting to pick at it!


Ok, My Excel 2 liter just showed up. Tonight was the second night of 55mls treatment on my 90G. I also spot treated the part of my bogwood that I missed on round one last week with the little Excel I had on hand. I actually took it out of the tank, as its too close to some HC I am trying to bring around. The HC seems to like the whole tank treatment!

I recently read somewhere (I think) that Crypts don't always do well with excess CO2. I have some C. wendtii thats in the path of my lower cannister return with CO2 on that line and it tends to melt prematurely there...that plant was going gangbusters before it moved to that spot.

I will try a spot treatment on some C balansae with a touch of BBA and report back how the plant fares. I know how the BBA will fare!:icon_evil


----------



## Betowess

DarkCobra said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread yet again, but I just found it. :icon_redf
> 
> I have never used Excel as an algicide or otherwise, but I have used hydrogen peroxide (H2O2)....
> 
> With H2O2, it's common practice to squirt it directly on patches of algae with a syringe to maximize its effect there, while minimizing the impact on the rest of the tank.
> 
> So here's my stupid question. Has anyone tried squirting Excel directly on algae?


Dark Cobra, this was great suggestion. For those of us who are squirting, we all owe you and Marcel a big Thank-you!


----------



## Ellies123

What a brilliant thread - I'm new to this site < hello everyone ! >

I have a slight problem with BBA, it's EVERYWHERE ! I have been recommended Siamese Algae Eaters - but Excel seems a lot more positive, especially when there is a mention of the BBA outbreak may have been caused by overstocking of fish !

Does anyone know of a stockist near Tamworth / Nuneaton in Warwickshire, UK ? I'll try to get a bottle tomorrow !

:fish:​


----------



## Mustang5L5

Betowess said:


> I recently read somewhere (I think) that Crypts don't always do well with excess CO2. I have some C. wendtii thats in the path of my lower cannister return with CO2 on that line and it tends to melt prematurely there...that plant was going gangbusters before it moved to that spot.



I have three c. wendtii plants in my tank. It's been about 1 week and they are doing fine. I've been religiously dosing at 3X spot treating in an area that is about 5" away from two of the crypts and i have not noticed any melting in my plants at all. As far as i can tell they are still growing well too.


----------



## Betowess

Good to know. It might have been too much current at that location, coupled with CO2 coming out of that return which is on the bottom a few inches away from my melted C wendtii. The leaves that melted get the most current... But a Balansae leaf melted which was a couple of inches away from some spot treated BBA on some bogwood.


----------



## Mustang5L5

Some progress

Original picture of leaf
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=772117

New picture taken today
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=787001

As you can see, it's all purple red and should turn white any day not and begin to disappear. It's been about 7 days. Also, notice the new leaf? That sprang up in the last few days. Seems my plants like Excel!


----------



## Tim_in_NYC

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=646004#646004

-Tim


----------



## Ellies123

I 'found' a bottle of Flourish today in my LFS ! It's like gold dust in the UK !
You USA guys could make a few bucks selling it on Ebay & shipping it to us in these less fortunate countries !

Could anyone advise the dosage for a 180 litre tank ?

I'm going to give spot treatments a try - I have an empty syringe that I could use.


----------



## Mustang5L5

Ellies123 said:


> I 'found' a bottle of Flourish today in my LFS ! It's like gold dust in the UK !
> You USA guys could make a few bucks selling it on Ebay & shipping it to us in these less fortunate countries !


How much is it overseas?

I just bought a second 100 mL bottle for $5.50 today. Should be my last purchase so my entire treatment will have cost me $11


----------



## Ellies123

Mustang5L5 said:


> How much is it overseas?
> 
> I just bought a second 100 mL bottle for $5.50 today. Should be my last purchase so my entire treatment will have cost me $11


Thanks Mustang....
My bottle cost £7.99 GBP, but it's 250ml, so it should treat my BBA nicely !
I guess with the exchange rate - it's not worth the hassle of shipping it across! Thank you for letting me know though, I thought it would be much cheaper over there


----------



## Betowess

Ellies123 said:


> I 'found' a bottle of Flourish today in my LFS ! It's like gold dust in the UK !...
> 
> I'm going to give spot treatments a try - I have an empty syringe that I could use.


Yeah, that will work and make it go alot farther. You may want to do a high dose to start the show off with a bang, then just spot dose every other or third day. Thats what I did and in a week I have a BBA free tank, save for a couple tiny tufts I missed. But they are hurting from the infusion, none the less. Also, its easier on the fauna. And the plants really like the stuff too. Goodluck bob


----------



## Ellies123

*Pre-treatment images - taken Sunday afternoon*

I did a 20% water change earlier today. Then, I gave the tank a quick prune b4 taking the photos, but I didn't go too mad. I didn't notice the marine tank's reflection until I uploaded the images.... I'll be adding the first treatment of Excel later this evening.





































I will post again when I see some improvement !  Hopefully soon.....​


----------



## Mustang5L5

Do you guys notice cloudyness during the excel treatment?

It went away after a water change but after a few more doses it has clouded up again. No effects on fish or plants other than the BBA turning red


----------



## fishwhisperer

Mustang5L5

Do you have any updated pictures of that same leaf. A picture is worth a thousand words. 

I started the treatment today and plan to start spot dosing tomorrow. How long are you guys leaving your filter on?

Also I have holes on the leaves that have the algae on them (mostly on the java fern). Is this normal?

Last thing, I have only been dosing for a few days and CO2 for a couple weeks, is it to early to start the treatment?


----------



## Betowess

If pin holes, it might be a potassium deficiency. Not sure about Java fern leaves. I have never seen a potassium deficiency on a Java.


----------



## cozmo

Mustang5L5 said:


> Do you guys notice cloudyness during the excel treatment?
> 
> It went away after a water change but after a few more doses it has clouded up again. No effects on fish or plants other than the BBA turning red


I have noticed the same with my 90 gallon. I've done a 40% waterchange and the cloudiness returned. What gives?


----------



## Mustang5L5

cozmo said:


> I have noticed the same with my 90 gallon. I've done a 40% waterchange and the cloudiness returned. What gives?


I've stopped my excel treatment due to the BBA all being red or white at this point. Every day more and more disappears. 

My water is still cloudy though. I did a waterchange and it returned. Next water change is due in 5 days but i hope this will go away as i do water changes?

Anybody know why the water clouds and if it will go away? I had crystal clear water before the excel treatments.


----------



## Mustang5L5

fishwhisperer said:


> Mustang5L5
> 
> Do you have any updated pictures of that same leaf. A picture is worth a thousand words.


The BBA on the leaf is mostly red/purple, but has not been disappearing as fast as it is off the driftwood. 

Here is the leaf today. The picture makes the BBA look dark. but it's all red/purple. I can pull it off by hand, but my CAE is getting fat off the stuff so i'm letting him take it all off slowly. 

Original
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=772117

1 week
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=787001

Today (about 2.5 weeks)
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=796086




Here are some more dramatic pictures

Before
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=772118

After (excuse the rubber band, trying to attach some java fern)
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=796101

Another good shot showing the dying BBA
http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic.php?u=11130S5RAi&i=796087


----------



## lumpyfunk

I am treating my 90 right now and documenting with pics, probably every other day in my journal http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/p...ks-90-gal-journal-56k-warning.html#post233651
I used the recommended starting dose and approximately 2.5 the recommended daily dose. I will post pics throughout the entire treatment.


----------



## defishfan

This is anecdotal evidence, and not quite about BBA, but here goes....

I'd been fighting a horrible BGA (Blue-Green Algae) outbreak for about a year in my lightly planted 10 gallon. I tried everything. I mean EVERYTHING. Different plant species, planting thicknesses, feeding schedules, stocking levels, fert dosings, algae eater species, etc. etc. etc. Finally I tossed a capful of Flourish Excel into the tank, and all of the blue-green was gone within about 12 hours. Truly amazing. This stuff would form a thick film over everything within 12 hours of complete manual removal, making the water smell bad, hands smell bad, etc. Now completely resolved, and plant growth is slightly improved (it was fairly quick before, cabomba would grow about 6in a week). No harm seems to have been done to either Cherry Barbs, Ottos, or MTS. Not sure if anyone else has had similar experience....


----------



## Mustang5L5

Been 5 days since my last update and the BBA is gone! I'll snap a new picture of the leaf tomorrow!


----------



## Betowess

Marcel, I was wondering if you still add any dose (not overdose) still at WC time, or are you just saving it for a BBA appearance still. TIA bob


----------



## cbennett

My tank had been covered in BBA when I had removed DIY CO2 for a couple months during moving. I finally got pressurized which meant no more new BBA and I did a severe trim to all my large plants but it was EVERYWHERE! My driftwood, substrate, all the teeny foreground leaves, glass, etc were covered. I did the 2-3x overdose with a minor die-off of BBA. Then I tried doing the same amount every day, just targeted right on the BBA. The stuff turned red then bleach-white within 1-2 days! I also noticed that once the BBA started to die that everybody (BN plecos, snails, shrimpies, and some of the fish) would eat it. :thumbsup: Driftwood that had a SOLID and THICK cover would be clean and bare within a couple days. On a flat section of one piece of wood, you could even see (at first) the trail my 1 mL syringe travelled, back and forth across the wood. It definitely works, just remember to turn off the filter for a couple minutes while your spot-treating your tank for best results. Then watch all the snails come up to eat the dying algae!

P.S. Accidentally overdosing a 12 gallon tank with a 5x dose of Excel will apparently kill aurotus pencilfish and a betta.


----------



## John S

Excel sounds like a good way to get reid of it but the real question is how did it bad in the first place its all about balance ferts lights co2


----------



## jsenske

Excel definitely helps. Cranking up the [email protected] to your highest safe level helps too. Nerite snails work great also. They are available from Arizona Aquatic Gardens. I use as many as 20 or more in a 58 gallon (use as a rough ratio) for a really bad problem (which fortunately I don't have any more in any tanks because I start out a new tank with a few of these snails and they really help keep it and other algae under control from the get-go). 

Maintaining a regular eye for this and other tough algae from real early on helps because you can physically remove it. I scrape the very first emerging little tufts of BBA with my fingernails while siphoning with a small hose. Getting it right away makes it easy to remove. Adjusting conditions long before you have a major problem carries all the obvious advantages too. 

Look for it first to appear in areas of "higher current" in the tank. BBA seems to like that for some reason. Older blades and leaves will show it early on too, but it seems to prefer rocks and driftwood initially.


----------



## m.lemay

Betowess said:


> Marcel, I was wondering if you still add any dose (not overdose) still at WC time, or are you just saving it for a BBA appearance still. TIA bob


 I add a little at water change time but I don't dose excel regularly. I'm working on getting my co2 set right so that the bba doesn't come back. My tank has cleaned up copnsiderably with the excel spot treatment but I still have a few spots that need to be treated.

Marcel


----------



## Betowess

m.lemay said:


> ... My tank has cleaned up copnsiderably with the excel spot treatment but I still have a few spots that need to be treated.
> 
> Marcel


Yeah, me too. Just a tiny bit might rear its ugly head, or barely peak up, knowing any second its gonna get a 12 guage shot of Excel. Do you know if the Nerite snails can handle pH 6.7. I thought all snails needed nuetral or harder water? Thanks, bob


----------



## m.lemay

I had the nerites in my tank at a ph of 6.5 and they were reproducing like crazy till I sicked the clown loaches on them. No more snails.:icon_roll


----------



## Betowess

Bummer, I have two young clownie boys. Maybe I can find some adult Nerites.


----------



## dschmeh

m.lemay said:


> I had the nerites in my tank at a ph of 6.5 and they were reproducing like crazy till I sicked the clown loaches on them. No more snails.:icon_roll


are you sure the nerites were reproducing or were they just laying eggs. Nerites lay eggs that need to be in a marine or brackish enviroment to survive.
These hatch into free-swimming larvae then finally settle and turn to snails. but they usually need a marine enviroment to hatch and survive.


----------



## kotoeloncat

I have a quick question, when you dose excel, is there any visible signs ?

I just dosed 2x into my 45 gal tank, i dont seem to see any changes (no pearling)

err, gotta make correction, water seems alittle cloudy, what gives ? this normal ?


----------



## imhandy2

Hello everyone, I am new to this site and this is my first posting.

Here is my experience double dosing excel to kill off my BBA in my 75g planted. 

I had my C02 cranked to 88ppm(Ph @ 6.4 with my pinpoint controller) plus double dosing excel for almost 2weeks. I had madd pearling which is and I hope I am not insulting anyone who knows but for those who don't know, basically the plants have reached a point of saturation and are producing O2 bubbles. Even with all that O2 in the water colm I still had my angels gasping for air at the surface and I did loose 3 corys after a 2 week period. Reading this thread I found out that the excel has a glutaraldehyde compound in it wich accounted for the casualties. Long story short, my hair algae turned red then white and died off but my BBA remained strong and healthy and I stopped the treatment.

Here was my regiment:

Weekly
50% W/C
1.5 tsp KNO3 to give me 20ppm/No3
4 tsp calcium cloride to give me 120ppm/Ca
3 tsp MGS04 

Daily
20ml flourish excel (75g-10g substrate=65g water colmn to double dose)
2ml TE/day that gave me 0.1 Fe
6 drops sodium phosphate to give me 1ppm Po4
Co2 pressurized 34ppm(right now)

Maybe I should try tripple dosing excel? Any Ideas?

Thanks in advance,

Terry.


----------



## BSS

Personally, I never had a lot of luck with the whole tank treatment. Going to the spot treatment, with the filter turned off, I can typically see BBA dying off in a day or two. I never noted any pearling associated with Excel addition, and I seem to recall some others talking about cloudiness issues, though I never experienced that.


----------



## imhandy2

I have been dosing 50ml/day in my 75g for 7 days now and absolutly no change in my BBA. This algae is from a different planet, only bleaching kills it. I have removed all the effected substrate by vacuming andI will have to bleach dip my driftwood and other inanimates.
Flourish excel has only killed hair algae for me and that was at 2x dosing.


----------



## cbennett

i had the same issue - just dumping the excel into the tank didn't do anything. BUT, taking the same amount of excel and squirting it directly onto the areas with BBA (using the syringe thingies that come with test kits) worked wonderfully. Within a day or two the BBA would turn red then stark white - and then my plecos and shrimps would love to eat it. Try spot dosing, it really works.


----------



## sWozzi3

well I usually get pearling most of the time with CO2 at 20ppm but it comes and goes and I haven't found the magic ingredient yet

anyway, I started dosing excel some 10 days ago to get rid of the black hair algae. I've got very little left now anyway but like the idea of trying to wipe it out completely since it's been in the tank in to some degree for nearly 2 years. 

I did normal initial dose followed by 2.5x/3x dose each day thereafter - I haven't noticed the algae dying off generally but it definately works if you apply it to specific areas - takes around two days to go white and die off

Tank parameters are

CO2 - cranked up to 30-35ppm
pH - 6.6-6.8
KH - 5.0
Phospate - 0.1ppm
Nitrate - less than 5ppm

Oh and I think some people have been dosing 3x on the initial dose and then reporting casualties - I am sure from reading all of this "lengthy" post that you should just dose the initial amount at the recomended level.

Also people seem to be cranking CO2 to high level (80ppm or greater) and reporting casualties - this doesn't surprise me, I am no expert but a couple of years back I bought a CO2 system that uses a carbon block along with electrolysis - I switched it on and within a few hours some of my neon tetras were dead and my rainbow shark was gasping for O2!! A water change calmed the situation down but ever since then I have been extremely careful how much CO2 I put in the tank.

BTW a fish can still "gasp" even if the water is saturated in O2, its something to do with the fact that in order to respire the CO2 level has to be lower than the CO2 level in the fishes blood.


----------



## h20 plant

I did the excel does and all the BBA and Staghorn turned red. does this mean its all dead or should i keep it up for a little longer??? also if you doe this take note that it will kill of you pellia but it has not effected my mini pellia but all my amano and fish ar good.


----------



## Kochegar

Hi,I'm new on this site,and interesting about EXCEL treatment.I have real
problem with Staghorn algae in my 46gal planted tank!Plese tell me will Excel
kill Staghorn also or it works only on BBA?
Thank You! Kochegar.


----------



## g8wayg8r

Absolutely phenominal.

I've been running with my pH around 6.5 @ 3 dh for quit some time. I've tried macro and micro fertilizer combination and have had nothing but failures. Regardless of the plant growth, all of the algae would grow worse as well. I could never get the plant growth needed to starve the algae.

That was until I statrting adding one tablespoon per day to my 29 gallon tank with no fertilizer additions except fish food. 

I have never seen or imagined the plant growth I am seeing now. ALL algae in my tank is, practically speaking, gone. Any algae that wasn't green died off as described in many of the preceeding posts. The green algae is gone as well, I suspect as a result of the new found growth. I've gone five days after the water change and my glass is still clear. Nothing hairy, gray or black anywhere. 

I'm at week two of the treatment. My fish are fine and the only question I have is whether to continue with the current dosing or cut back. I think I'll cut back to 2 tsp every day and see what happens. Since I have no plans to stop using Flourish Excel, it might be a good idea to find out just what's needed to keep the plants growing and the tank clean.


----------



## cornhusker

*excell as a treatment for bba*

g8wayg8r, i second that totally! i've been using excell now for about five months and have no algae,allmost, a tiny bit of green spot once in a while.these are all non co2 tanks,but i also use in a 75 gal co2 tank.no longer is there a need to clean plumbing in these tanks,they are allways clean. also in most tanks i dont even have to clean the front glass.water changes are 50% weekly. on a 55 gal tank,5 capfuls of excell at w/c and 2 caps every other day.when starting out using excell i think it should be dosed every day for at least 6 weeks.i don't overdose,(too expensive).i have found with all the experimenting i've done with excell is to be consistant with dosing.at w/c i allso add 1tsp so4,1/4 tsp po4,1/4 tsp kno3 and 15ml of micros untill next water change.this regime makes for a real easy maintanence of my tanks.if you want nice plant growth w/o algae ,EXCELL is the only way to go. regards,cornhusker


----------



## g8wayg8r

Cloudy water.

Ran two weeks without any ferts. Water was clear. Plants were growing. Added a small amount of PMDD just in case the water was starting to run lean. Noticed the water was cloudy. A water change didn't seem to help. Something has precipitated. Is it the ferts or is there a new addition to the treated Mississippi and Missouri river water I'm using? Both rivers are extremely low now.

Any thoughts? I probably should do some out-of-tank testing.


----------



## marielou20

*Flourish Excel*



motifone said:


> Hmm. This has been an interesting thread, Is it BBA season? How much Flourish Excel should I put for a 90 G and for how long


----------



## argblarg

I had a horiffic outbreak of BBA, did about 2.5 the recommended dosage for 2 weeks. After about a week my rubberlip pleco and gourami were eating it constantly, and at the 2 week mark I am completely algae free. I lost one white cloud in the process but that could be summer temperature related.

Definately would do it again if necessary. I will cut back to normal dosing while building my DIY setup.


----------



## tha_beeg

woo hoo!! so heres my story...

I went on to the beach for a week almost 3 weeks ago and when i got back what did i find??? every algae known to man had taken my aquarium over. my aquarium has been infested with hair algae and staghorn ruthlessly growing anywhere and everywhere. i cleaned what i could and just left it be until i found this sticky. so i made some adjustments to my started the excel treatment 6 days ago and BAAM 2 days after i started treating the staghorn had turned red and most of the hair algae is following suit slowly. in a day or two im goin to go in and remove some of the dead stuff if my ghost shrimp and otos dont take care of it. 

so 20gal + 2 capfuls of excel a day= no algaeroud: 

my only fish that seems to have had some difficulties with the excel is one of my mollies, who is still living, but her eye is swollen and she had white patches on her sides:icon_cry:


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## wenhamjj

I had a bad outbreak of BBA a while back. It is my understanding that it mainly happens in older tanks. What finally worked for me was to use Excell. It is liquid carbon source which will boost your plant growth and starve out the BBA. Within 2 days of the inital dose the BBA started to turn brownish red and eventually faded away. I also added several Siemease algea eaters to finish it off. I havent seen it ever since.


----------



## mistern2005

*My Excel v. Algae Experience*

I had the same typical problems....hair algae and BBA. The way I combated the problem was to add ghost shrimp (in theory to eat the hair algae) and use Excel to fight the BBA. The Excel knocked out the BBA...literally in four days it was all pink. After a 50% water change, I followed the directions on the bottle for the first day and doubled the recommended subsequent doses. Some of the tougher BBA growing on the plants still survived....I fought this with the bleach dip (only leave in plants for 60-90 seconds) and trimming the plants I couldn't actually remove from the tank. All the critters are still having fun dining on the dead/dying algae. Everything at this point seems to be in check. 

I think the Excel was the magic bullet...I like to think the shrimp helped some. To anyone who is buying Excel I suggest getting to 2L bottle...you will go through it faster than you think! 

BIT O' HARD LESSON WISDOM: Do not beach mosses, hornwort, or other delicate plants...they will dissolve in the tank a few days later and make a royal mess...I think it is better to try to salvage the "cleaner" parts of these types of plants and just leave them in with everything else during the Excel treatment.


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## blackfly

*Use of Flourish Excel as Algalcide.*

I tried and experiment with Excel as an algalcide. I did the recommeded dosage and unbeknownst to me my wife then added the amount I did (I got a 4x dose). Needless to say, I have had four major fish die off (including a beloved Scribble Tiger Pleco I have had for 10 years, no ****) and the bottom loving fish. I have noticed that some of my plants, including the Riccia, are losing the green component and turning pale. I think the iron in the plants is being taken out/reduced- killing the plants. I am curious if anyone else has found this to be true.

The algae is turning red/pink. It is obviously dying, but at what cost? When the bottle says "Do not overdose" they mean it. I have lost some expensive fish and I am now back to square one.

Not good. I hate learning curves. They can be expensive if one is not totally vigilant.

Any thoughts?


----------



## epicfish

There's plenty of threads on this board about using Excel to kill off algae. Use search to find those threads.

In short, there's two doses to Excel, dose X which is right after a WC, and dose Y. To overdose Excel and use it to kill algae, keep dose X the same (an OD of amount X will lead to unwanted consequences, much like you've seen already), but double (or triple) dose Y for the remainder of the week.


----------



## epicfish

PS: Even normal amounts of Excel will kill off fissidens, riccia, egeria densa, and vals if dosed directly onto those plants.


----------



## rey

FYI, my experience with Excel: I have been dosing 15 ml/day in my 50 gal. for about a month now. BBA has retreated but not disappeared, no riccia damage.


----------



## blackfly

This is a followup. After my dieoff I did a major water change and let the tank rest. My algae is all gone (all of it, in any form. Water looks great). I have been dosing ONE cap about every 2 days to keep the Flourish present. No stress on the fish or plants. I have a 120 gallon tank.

Flourish really works, but you must tread lightly. Yes, I dose CO2 from a canister as well. I cannot believe how easy it was to get rid of the algae. 

I suppose the real trick is the long term. Will the algae stay away, or will it come back with a vengeance? We will see.

Definitely worth adding to the must have inventory like lights, CO2 and fertilizer.


----------



## empire300

this is not a reply but im going to post a thread later ... i have a HORRIBLE bba problem as i have neglected my tank for about 3 months besides 2 water changes ... i need to decide weather to just flush out my tank get new substrate and bleach everything else. im not sure i can bring it back to its prior beauty ... but before i go harsh and do all that i'll post a few pics and ask everyones oppinions ... to try dosing and killing ... or start over with some fast growers and proper ferts and co2
new thread will be up in about 30 min once i get a chance to do the pics ... im mid water change right now


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## misnjoe

In my frustrated quest to learn about and control the horrible hair and beard algae that was virulantly attacking my 30gl plant i found this post.

that was about 8 days ago i was not a member at this forum, i was reading and trying evrything you could think of. Then, the excell flourish treatment.

Tonight my algae is all but gone. A true magic bullet. My mated pair of discus,11 cardinals, flying fox, ottos, and even a amano shrimp and of course the plants are all doing fine. Thank you all.Can't tell you how great it has been to see that algea die off. Funny, it seems like my foxs and ottos liked the taste of the treated algea better then when it was flourishing they ripped into it like wolves great to watch. Now I am worried that they have nothing to eat, but thats a problem i can deal with. I would recomend the excell treatment to anyone. I did about a 2 1/2 to 3 times over recomended dosage.


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## bastalker

I dosed 50 ml of excel a day for 4 days in my 75G tank. The BBA disappeared, but like epicfish stated, so did my vals!! The fish were fine though.

I also dosed marycin at 5 tablets a day for 4 days, then 4 tabs on day 5. The clado I had in my tank also disappeared. Nothing has come back, an this was over a month ago.


----------



## =The_Saint=

My experience with Excel was not as quick, nor drastic.

I tried double dose'ing, 10 ml in my 47gal tank. It wasn't making any noticeable improvements anywhere. It might have been delaying growth (I didn't have it all that bad, just on a few plants and a large Roman Colesium on the left  )

Anyway..... I tried the direct approach with the syringe, and voila, the next day the black stuff was read.... hmmmmm.....

Next day I took a small (1 litre) bucket of aquarium water, I put the double dose of excel (for the whole tank) in there. And then I dipped the plants (I forget the name... something with little leaves) in the solution for 10 minutes.

I then replanted them in the tank. Well here we are 3 days later, and there is no more BBA on my plants!! Cool.

I'm saddened that it didn't work across the board, but then again I haven't tried triple dose'ing. I'm sorta scared too.

Done,

Jer


----------



## bmedeiros678

I am an idiot. My questions are.
1. Do I leave the lights on?
2. Do I include the water that is in the fluval filter in calculating the dosage?
3. Which doasage do I double?
4. Do I continue my weekly water change of 50%?
5. My cherry barbs just had a baby. Is the dosage going to be harmful?
Thanks for your help folks.


30 ga bow front


----------



## bmedeiros678

bmedeiros678 said:


> I am an idiot. My questions are.
> 1. Do I leave the lights on?
> 2. Do I include the water that is in the fluval filter in calculating the dosage?
> 3. Which doasage do I double?
> 4. Do I continue my weekly doasage of 1/3?
> 5. My cherry barbs just had a baby. Is the dosage going to be harmful?
> Thanks for your help folks.
> 
> 
> 30 ga bow front


Well Brian, Let me see if I can help...
1. I don't know.
2. I don't know.
3. I don't know.
4. I don't know.
5. I don't know.
Hope that helps.


----------



## bmedeiros678

bmedeiros678 said:


> Well Brian, Let me see if I can help...
> 1. I don't know.
> 2. I don't know.
> 3. I don't know.
> 4. I don't know.
> 5. I don't know.
> Hope that helps.


No it doesn't but thanks!


----------



## rnakas

I did 3x normal dose and It got rid of most of the algae.I also got rid of 20 shrimp and 4 ottos and my vals and amazon swords are starting to die off.I stopped already and wonder if the vals and swords will bounce back not all of the leaves are dying.


----------



## fishymatty

I had a hard time going through all the posts in this but has anyone had any experience with the overdose of excel causing a mini cycle? 
Yesterday I bought a new bottle of excel and overdosed my 38g established for over a year with absolutely no signs of ammonia/nitrite in almost that long. In the past I had dead fish completely dissolve with out a spike.Late last night I noticed the water was cloudy and some of the fish were gasping, so this was a tad strange and I thought maybe it could have been from the excel.


----------



## robbob2112

fishymatty said:


> I had a hard time going through all the posts in this but has anyone had any experience with the overdose of excel causing a mini cycle?
> Yesterday I bought a new bottle of excel and overdosed my 38g established for over a year with absolutely no signs of ammonia/nitrite in almost that long. In the past I had dead fish completely dissolve with out a spike.Late last night I noticed the water was cloudy and some of the fish were gasping, so this was a tad strange and I thought maybe it could have been from the excel.



Yes, I overdosed with excel. It killed off my hornwort totally, lost all its leaves and I had to discard it. It also killed off all the algae and part of the snails. Three days later after fishing out all of that and 2 massive water changes (50% each time) my NH4 spiked and the tank essentially started a mini cycle. I stopped dosing with excel and kept up daily 10% water changes for a week. Didn't loose any fish, not even the newborn Swordtails, but I think it was a close call.

I attribute the mini-cycle to all the dead algea, snails, and hornwort floating around and rotting more than to the excel. Along with a lack of the fast growing hornwort

A month later I am back to normal water reading and have added in Amazon swords.

Net result is all the algae of all types in my tank totally died off and I lost one species of plant. I am doing periodic doses of florish, and excel at slightly less than recommended dose. All the remaining plants have taken off and are growing like weeds.

Robert


----------



## jdmstop

I have a few questions

1- Should the lights still operate at normal time 8 hours aday?
2. My compressed co2 is hooked up with the lamp, should i keep the co2 running for 24hrs a day for the period of excel dosage?
3.Should I be dosing the EI index while dosing the excel?


I have been doing this, complete black out, no co2, air running for the fish all day, and 2x dosing on excel, its been 4 days, and the bba are turning red. I'm thinking to go in there and start trimming the leafs with all the algea'..

What do you guys think?


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## Ryzilla

You have to spot treat the excel. Just take 1.5x the reccomended dose in a syringe of some sort and spray on the algae you want to kill. 1.5x the regular dose has not hurt anything in my tank.


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## phanizzle

will over dosing excel harm my crystals or cherry shrimps?


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## Joetee

*Excel and Activated Carbon*

Will Excel still work to kill beard algae if I am useing activated carbon in my canister filter? I am on day 4 or 5 now and have not seen any difference.
Thanks


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## BassMiesterNJ

Ryzilla said:


> You have to spot treat the excel. Just take 1.5x the reccomended dose in a syringe of some sort and spray on the algae you want to kill.


Will this technique work "under water" ?


----------



## EricSilver

BassMiesterNJ said:


> Will this technique work "under water" ?


Yes. Just direct the flow onto the algae. When the color changes (eventually), the algae is dying. 

You could do the exact same thing with peroxide, but preferably not if the algae is on a plant leaf, since you risk burning the cuticle and killing that leaf.


----------



## Joetee

Well I am on I think day 9 or 10 now and my beard algae has not been effected at all. I removed my activated carbon a few days ago to see if that will make a difference, but has not. I don't know what else to do.
29 gallon tank dosing 12 mil on water change day, and 8 mil everyday.
The Algae is on my wood not my plants.
Any idea's?


----------



## BassMiesterNJ

Joetee said:


> Well I am on I think day 9 or 10 now and my beard algae has not been effected at all. I removed my activated carbon a few days ago to see if that will make a difference, but has not. I don't know what else to do.
> 29 gallon tank dosing 12 mil on water change day, and 8 mil everyday.
> The Algae is on my wood not my plants.
> Any idea's?


Spot treatment, it really works. 

A bit of work but you can isolate and hit the worst spots. I'm just using a liquid syringe type dispenser from the local RX. 

I've already nuked a couple of spots with it... they turn almost white in a day or two.


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## Joetee

So just doing a 3x daily dose just added to the water won't work to kill beard algae on wood?


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## kzr750r1

Joetee said:


> So just doing a 3x daily dose just added to the water won't work to kill beard algae on wood?


Not really. It will keep it in check but not kill it off..

Spot dosing excel 101.

1) ID and remember your planned dosing area.
2) Turn off filter.
3) Pull Excel into a syringe or pipette.
4) Dispense just above the algae as the excel will sink.
5) Keep the filter off for 15 min or more. Think concentrated exposure time.
6) Don't dose more than 2x if you want to keep your shrimp.

Observe the dosed areas over the next couple of days. The BBA will turn red then gray. If there are shrimp or corys I've seen both munch on this after treatment. Great for anubias recovery.

After sniping your tank and only spot dosing the algae will recess a great deal.

3x tank dosing is not a cost effective way to use this product.


----------



## Joetee

ok so, I will try spot treating. I hope this works because I have a real nice piece of wood but can't see it for all the beard. I even removed the wood and done a dip in bleach/water at one week intervals for three weeks. It made the beard sick but did not kill it. This is some bad axx stuff to get rid of.

Thanks


----------



## kzr750r1

Joetee said:


> ok so, I will try spot treating. I hope this works because I have a real nice piece of wood but can't see it for all the beard. I even removed the wood and done a dip in bleach/water at one week intervals for three weeks. It made the beard sick but did not kill it. This is some bad axx stuff to get rid of.
> 
> Thanks


Take your time with it and get some shrimp in there. They will make quick work of treated BBA.


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## Momotaro

Not sure if you have read through the entire thread, as it is a long one, but if you are going to OD Excel in any amount over 2X *DO NOT* add shrimp. In my experience shrimps (Caridina sp in particular) are super sensitive to Flourish Excel. 3X the dosage can effect them acutely and adversely - death.

If there are shrimp in the aquarium already, keep a close eye on them! 

Mike


----------



## kzr750r1

Momotaro said:


> Not sure if you have read through the entire thread, as it is a long one, but if you are going to OD Excel in any amount over 2X *DO NOT* add shrimp. In my experience shrimps (Caridina sp in particular) are super sensitive to Flourish Excel. 3X the dosage can effect them acutely and adversely - death.
> 
> If there are shrimp in the aquarium already, keep a close eye on them!
> 
> Mike


Good word of caution. Spot dosing will allow maximum exposure to treatment area. No need really to OD the tank as the concentration and exposure time is what your after to kill off BBA.

Should have added to skip a few days between treatments if shrimp are in the equation.


----------



## Momotaro

> Good word of caution. Spot dosing will allow maximum exposure to treatment area. No need really to OD the tank as the concentration and exposure time is what your after to kill off BBA.


Great point as well! :icon_wink 

Mike


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## donaldbyrd

Started spot treating bba 4 days ago it is all turning red and now white seems to be working great. But now I am starting to see bga.


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## captain_bu

donaldbyrd said:


> Started spot treating bba 4 days ago it is all turning red and now white seems to be working great. But now I am starting to see bga.


Glad to hear the Excel is working on your BBA. Excel will help to kill certain types of algae but it will do nothing to correct the unbalanced conditions in your tank that are causing you to get algae in the first place. You need to find and correct the root of the problem. Good luck!


----------



## donaldbyrd

I know what the problem is with the bba I have a solenoid, that is sticking.


----------



## 9am53

*my cardinals OD'd*

Hi, I read this thread in preparation for some BBA action I took a couple days ago...I got excel as a "Last resort" against my black bearded nemesis...as a control tactic for the BBA I fin d that the excel works great, if overdosed like is mentioned here...many of the formerly black area have a gnarly pink/garnet colour, and the algae is receding from my HC...BUT upon initial use, one of my cardi's died and now the second day 2 more dropped...I dont particularly like this, but I godda do what i godda do...

I dosed the initial capfull per 10 gallons (3 caps, 29 gallon) and since then I have been doing one cap per day ...it says to do one cap every day or other day for 50 gallons...so Im not even doing a double dose...should my fish be dying? 

I recently got anew filter marineland c220, sould this maybe just be the shock of a new filter AND the excel?


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## captain_bu

9am53 said:


> I recently got anew filter marineland c220, sould this maybe just be the shock of a new filter AND the excel?


Did you move the media from your old filter to the new one or run the two filters concurrently until the biological filtration developed in the new one? If you didn't that may be what is causing your Cardinals to die. They require very clean, stable water. I use Excel daily at double doses (quadruple dose after weekly water change) and have 15 healthy Cardinals in my tank.


----------



## donaldbyrd

I have about 20 cardinals and have been dosing at about 2x and have not seen any problem with them or my discus.


----------



## 9am53

ok...I was told to run my filters concurrently, but I though that there was enough bacteria on the substrate and plants...I gotcha, I think IM gonna add the old filter back on for a few days...


----------



## 9am53

ok, its been more than a day now with the old filter back on, and all my fish are seeming better, thanks for the help with my obvious problem....


----------



## donaldbyrd

I have been spot treating for about two weeks now all of the BBA is gone along with the BGA I was seeing but my Anubias Nana leaves are turning yellow.


----------



## milesm

i haven't read all posts in this thread, but it seems like people are using excel for a week or more to combat bba. 

i had some bba and gsa, and quite a bit of hair, fuzz, and thread algae, due to low/inconsistent co2 levels. i have pressurized, but was playing around with reactors/diffusers. anyway, i did a 3 day blackout, double dosing excel (20 ml for 20g tank) after each day's 60% wc. all of the algae except for the gsa turned pink, after which my otos, sae's, and endlers' gorged themselves on the dying algae. still have gsa problems, even if i seem to be od po4; doesn't bother me to scrape it off during wc. also, i have 10 cardinals in the tank, they survived the ordeal.

since then, i use co2 mist and the algae has not returned. i have to agree with tom barr who constantly says that most algae problems are due to insufficient/inconsistent co2 levels relative to light levels.


----------



## Kayakbabe

Reminder.. if you're using excel, turn off UV sterilizers! and preferably treat right before or after lights out. UV breaks down excel very quickly, light not as quickly, but still does.


----------



## cc_woman

*Manipulate PH if U can, as it may benefit you more.*

Can't believe this hasn't been suggested. If your fish can/prefer softer water/lower PH... then lower the PH to raise the values of the C02 in your tank rather than cranking the C02 to high and maybe killing your fish. Of course to combat the BBA's and other algae. Here is a URL to calculate the values: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm 
IE we have 'Discus' and 'Angelfish' etc. but in very hard water, our PH (unmanipulated) was 7.6 that equals about 9 ppm, way too low to combat the bull****, bastardly BBA; in hard water (KH being about 12 or 224 ppm). We have two pretty descent hagen DIY - bubble ladders in our 92 Gal., but still cannot achieve the required C02 levels. So now, & also in favoring our specific fish (soft water favoring fish), without raising C02 levels, which if too high over 30ppm can kill your fish pretty quick in many occasions, we have achieved the adequate level of 30ppm. This is a more ideal and safer method if your fish prefer soft water; and a lower PH only! Use something like proper PH to adjust and maintain the levels, the liquid fomula is best, as the powdered can cloud your water. Be sure to follow the directions as a drastic change in PH can be detrimental aswell. We have also used the excel dip method, and excel daily doses with success, the algae is changing colors and dying now, begone damnable algae. Hope this helps


----------



## Naja002

cc_woman said:


> Can't believe this hasn't been suggested. If your fish can/prefer softer water/lower PH... then lower the PH to raise the values of the C02 in your tank rather than cranking the C02 to high and maybe killing your fish. Of course to combat the BBA's and other algae. Here is a URL to calculate the values: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
> IE we have 'Discus' and 'Angelfish' etc. but in very hard water, our PH (unmanipulated) was 7.6 that equals about 9 ppm, way too low to combat the bull****, bastardly BBA; in hard water (KH being about 12 or 224 ppm). We have two pretty descent hagen DIY - bubble ladders in our 92 Gal., but still cannot achieve the required C02 levels. So now, & also in favoring our specific fish (soft water favoring fish), without raising C02 levels, which if too high over 30ppm can kill your fish pretty quick in many occasions, we have achieved the adequate level of 30ppm. This is a more ideal and safer method if your fish prefer soft water; and a lower PH only! Use something like proper PH to adjust and maintain the levels, the liquid fomula is best, as the powdered can cloud your water. Be sure to follow the directions as a drastic change in PH can be detrimental aswell. We have also used the excel dip method, and excel daily doses with success, the algae is changing colors and dying now, begone damnable algae. Hope this helps


Ok, Sorry, but those of you that know me know that--I can't let this one pass....

Hi cc_woman,

Apologies, but your post is just wrought with bad-/mis-information.

First, the C02 chart is not accurate and therefore not reliable. Do a search for "drop checker" and you will find a new"er" more accurate and reliable method of determing C02 levels in Your tank. They are inexpensive, easy to implement and maintain, and much more accurate/reliable.

Second, I don't really understand your C02 setup, but unless you are using 2x 5gal jugs or something--there is no way that you have 30ppm in that 92 gal. tank. Even after "adjusting" the pH. Adjusting the pH does not add any C02 to the system. Only adding C02--will add C02.

Third, there is no reason--repeat: *None*--to use pH adjusters in the aquarium. Do a search and some research here at PT. pH adjusters are for folks that have absolutely no clue as to what is valid and what is not. In short--get a TDS meter and see for yourself what You are actually doing. Fish can handle Higher (or lower) pH a heck of a lot better then all of the TDSs that you are adding to the system--especially fish like Discus and Angels.

From your post I am assuming that you are fairly new to aquariums, or have been hanging out somewhere like Simply Discus or DAAH. Stick around, do some reading. You have found one of the two *BEST* places on the net for Aquarium info.........:thumbsup: 

HTH


----------



## tacks

I guess I cant let this pass either. Your right about the only way to add more co2 is to add co2 and your other points are also valid. What I dont understand is the statement about hanging around simply discus. What does that have to do with anything, I am a member here and also there and find bothsite to be very helpful. thanks Ed


----------



## Naja002

SD and DAAH have their value and their place. I haven't been around there in a yr or more, but my experience is that the "core" group of folks are very adamant against progression. Maybe something has changed, but during the time that I was around there--they were all stuck in a "mind-lock" passing the same BS back and forth to each other--regardless of reality.

Also, what its has to do with anything is simply that cc_woman's post is wrought with out-dated mis-information--The same kind that you get from SD and DAAH. Plus she's into Discus and Angels. I didn't just pull SD and DAAH out of my ear....:thumbsup:


----------



## tacks

I can see you have your mind made up about SD, I dont know anything about the other site. IT sounds that you are saying that people that are into discus or angels should or are not capable of doing planted tanks. I for one can and do both. I belive you will find that SD has grown a lot when it comes to planted tanks and you have many people here that I see over there. I can see that you certainly know your plants as I have read a lot of yor post, when I am in doubt I will make sure I search you out. Ed


----------



## Naja002

Hi Ed,



tacks said:


> I can see you have your mind made up about SD, I dont know anything about the other site.


I try not to make up my mind about much. I realize that the truth is oftentimes evasive, so I try to remain open to new information. I think I do an Ok job at it, but who knows? As far as SD goes--my info is a yr or so out of date, so things may be a bit different....





tacks said:


> IT sounds that you are saying that people that are into discus or angels should or are not capable of doing planted tanks.


No, I'm not saying that at all. It was that way over there, but not over here at PT. Folks here kept discus in their planted tanks, just over there it really wasn't possible. Yes, there were a few--very few--but generally the folks didn't pay much attention to them other than to Oooo and Ahhhhh over their tanks. They were busy doing the same things everybody else was doing--including achieving the overall lack of reproductive sucess--and nobody seemed to have a clue. Nor could they get one.





tacks said:


> I for one can and do both. I belive you will find that SD has grown a lot when it comes to planted tanks and you have many people here that I see over there.


That's Very Good and I am Happy for You. :thumbsup: I think You understand the value of both from achieving that ability. My guess would be that the influx of people from here would be the root of forward change over there. Maybe this thread hijack will help you see that your presence over there has more value than you previously might have realized. Same with others from PT and APC. They (SD) needed to get out of the mind-lock and start moving forward. Hopefully, that's been accomplished! :thumbsup: Just for clarification: I'm not saying that discus have, need or should be kept in planted tanks--the situation went way beyond that. But I'm willing to assume that if any major changes have occurred at SD that planted tank folks have had an effect, taken plenty of other info over there and broken through.......That would be a Good thing! :thumbsup: 



tacks said:


> I can see that you certainly know your plants as I have read a lot of yor post, when I am in doubt I will make sure I search you out. Ed


Thank You, Ed. I try. I definitely get it wrong sometimes, but I try to turn those into learning experiences! I'm still left scratching my head all the time. Seems like nothing is written in stone in this universe! :tongue:


----------



## AquaShrimp

*Very Helpful Treatment*

Amazing! I'm doing this and it helps! :thumbsup: Keep up the good work! :thumbsup:


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## reddragon1977

Excel is the best thing that has ever happened to my aquarium.


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## plantbrain

cc_woman said:


> Can't believe this hasn't been suggested. If your fish can/prefer softer water/lower PH... then lower the PH to raise the values of the C02 in your tank rather than cranking the C02 to high and maybe killing your fish. Of course to combat the BBA's and other algae. Here is a URL to calculate the values: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
> IE we have 'Discus' and 'Angelfish' etc. but in very hard water, our PH (unmanipulated) was 7.6 that equals about 9 ppm, way too low to combat the bull****, bastardly BBA; in hard water (KH being about 12 or 224 ppm). We have two pretty descent hagen DIY - bubble ladders in our 92 Gal., but still cannot achieve the required C02 levels. So now, & also in favoring our specific fish (soft water favoring fish), without raising C02 levels, which if too high over 30ppm can kill your fish pretty quick in many occasions, we have achieved the adequate level of 30ppm. This is a more ideal and safer method if your fish prefer soft water; and a lower PH only! Use something like proper PH to adjust and maintain the levels, the liquid fomula is best, as the powdered can cloud your water. Be sure to follow the directions as a drastic change in PH can be detrimental aswell. We have also used the excel dip method, and excel daily doses with success, the algae is changing colors and dying now, begone damnable algae. Hope this helps


You need to sit down and test a glass of water and see how much CO2 it has with KH = 0, KH4 and a KH of 12.

Allow them to sit out for 48 hours.
Then measure the CO2.

They will all have the EXACT SAME CO2 ppm.
You do not get "free extra CO2" via softening the water.

Adding other buffers/pH adjusters does not add CO2 gas.

This is common sense. The partial pressure of pCO2 is the same in the air, and thus at equilibrium, REGARDLESS of the KH, will always be the same.

When we add CO2 entrichment, the KH stays the same as well.
The only things that do change are the pH(goes down) and the CO2 ppms.

Now if you want to add more CO2 gas, then do that!
It's painfully obvious.

No amount of pH adjuster(other than CO2 gas) will add more CO2 gas.
Why is this an issue?
It's as straight forward as it gets:thumbsup: 

You do not get free CO2 with softer KH's(GH has no effect on pH or CO2).
There's no back door sneaky way around it.

Now the harder water has more total carbon, the sum total of the KH (mostly bicarb- HCO3) and the CO2, but the CO2 content at equilibrium should always be the same(unless you add CO2 gas or remove it etc).

Simply because someone cannot use the CO2 correctly does not imply the method is at fault. It's our fault if we fail there.
2 little CO2 DIY ladders on a 92 gal tank is hardly effective method for adding CO2.

Rather than trying to fix a mistake with yet another method, why not focus on the original issue?

As far as 30ppm and discus and angels and pH changes: here's some practical personal experience on a tank I did:
Altums and the biggest discus I've seen:
















1600 gallon's worth.
pH changes (drops) 1.2 units when the lights come on and rises 1.2 units when it's off due to CO2 enrichment. Several of the other (P. scalare) angels and tetras lay eggs as have the discus.

If they are impacted, we ain't seeing it.
Go back and see if you can prove to yourself that you do not somehow magically get free CO2 with lowering the KH.

It'd be for your own benefit.
It's also a rather common mistake folks have with planted tanks and Hardness.

As far as pH changes: CO2 gas is not a salt. Adding lots of baking soda (Sodium bicarbonate), a salt, by a full pH unit rapidly will kill your fish. 

Since few folks monitor pH and CO2 gas enrichment outside of the planted hobby, the general advice is more for KH changes, not CO2 gas pH related changes. CO2 and KH are different and have different effects for different reasons, they are not equivalent.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## White Worm

Great thread! I learned alot about algae and excell. Now I'm on to looking at the H202 theory. As far as the different sites, SD has its place for sure. When you want plant advice, go to a plant forum. When you want advice concerning discus, go to a discus forum. Thats what I do. To be more specific, overall, SD members mainly comment on not putting _young_ discus into planted tanks because of their possible slowed growth. Many have done it and for some it worked.... for some it didnt.... for some, they just dont know the difference. It justs creates a possibly more difficult time with keeping discus healthy. It is also a good idea to get one thing down before you do both at once. Plants are one thing and discus are another. As far as older or adult discus go, they are always suggested as a beautiful addition to the planted tank world. JMO. As far as DAAH....thats another story :thumbsdow


----------



## Guest

Question - 
When you dose Excel for BBA do you always spot treat it, or can you just drop the capfulls into the tank?


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## mott

Spot treating is the way to go, be careful though od too much and you can wipe out the live stock in your tank.


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## Guest

mott said:


> Spot treating is the way to go, be careful though od too much and you can wipe out the live stock in your tank.


I did five capfuls for a 50 gallon. is that good. It said you could use 2 time that amount, right?


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## tlef316

having a small outbreak of bba right now. I really dont want to go to pressurized CO2, so I'm gonna try excel. I do have some valis that could suffer, but i'll watch it closely. The bba is affeting my anubias, 3 of my sword plants and a few pieces of my hardscape. I cut off most of the leaves with it (will remove the rest on saturday. It's on 4 or 5 leaves on my rubin sword, which i'm not happy about) I dumped in 8 capfulls last night (75 gallon tank) Hoping for the best.


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## sWozzi3

rick4him said:


> I did five capfuls for a 50 gallon. is that good. It said you could use 2 time that amount, right?


Initial dose as stated on the bottle

Then 2.5x - 3x the dose stated on the bottle preferably squirted directly onto the most effected area whilst still in the tank.

No more than 2x dose if you have shrimp

Dose at night so the light doesn't breakdown the excel

Up CO2 to at least 30ppm

Im no expert but did it with some success a few years back, squirting it onto effected areas killed it within a few days, I had some on my filterbox, squirting that not only killed it but left a huge mark on the filterbox where no algae would grow for months after!

Ive not gotten BBA for years now, I used to get it alot but I am fairly sure it was due to lots of phospate and/or the pH being too low (6.5).


----------



## Complexity

I read this entire thread a couple of months ago when I first got BBA. I'm at the point that I want to dose the entire tank as it seems if I get rid of it in one place, it just pops up somewhere else. With no power, thus no CO2, for over a week, I just noticed little tufts in various places in my tank. It's beginning to grow everywhere.

I have amano shrimp. LOTS of them.

I intend to squirt it directly on the spots when I treat it. I'll treat it just before lights out. UV sterilizer turned off. I'll keep my 2 large canister filters running.

I read at the very beginning of this thread that someone used 25ml in his 75g tank for 2 weeks. I've read all the suggestions of how much to dose to the point my head is spinning.

Does anyone see a problem with dosing 25ml each night, squirting it directly on the BBA, until all signs of BBA are finally gone? Since I have my pressurized CO2 cranked up as far as my fish will allow, I'm hoping that once I get rid of the BBA with Excel, my tank conditions will prevent it from coming back.

25ml of Excel every night at lights out and filters running for 10-14 days straight (weekly 50% water changes) okay for a 75g tank with amano shrimp?


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## Hilde

[FONT=URW Gothic L, sans-serif]I read at another forum BBA Thrives in situations of high phosphates and low nitrates. Nitrate needs to be maintained at 20-30ppm. Also if BBA is turning red it is dieing. If a lot dies off it becomes toxic and a water change has to be done.

If this is wrong let me know.
 [/FONT]​


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## Complexity

Not sure about the nutrients being the issue as i've generally understood it being tied to fluctuating CO2. This fits because I had knocked the BBA back quite a bit, only to have it spread while my power was out which caused my tank to be void of CO2. It also appears light related, as is true with most algae.

I read the bottle again, and realized that 25ml was less than even the initial dose it recommends. It says 5ml per 10 gallon. So for a 75g tank, that would mean around 38ml (5/10 = .5ml per gallon) so (.5 * 75 = 37.5ml).

I ended up dosing probably 45ml last night. No change so far, but it's only one night.

I think I'll just play it by ear with watching how my plants, fish and the BBA respond to dosing 40ml each night. The most sensitive will be my vals and amanos. So if I see a decline in either, that should indicate that I need to lower my dosage.

I'm also going to see if I can bump up my injected CO2 even a tiny notch without stressing the fish. I want this BBA gone by the time I need to move my tank which is only a few weeks from now.


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## kzr750r1

What I have noticed is spot dosing is the way to go especially with Grass Shrimp. Think of tank over dosing as a last resort.

As I have said before in this thread.

Your looking to increase high concentration of Excel on a specific area.
Keeping in mind the general rules as you have read.
1) Do this just before lights out.
2) Shut the pumps off for a while so the spot dose is allowed to stand in the area in question.

I can do a single spot dose on any item in the tank and within days it fades and disappears.

This in a sense is an over dose for a specific area and allow the benefits of the product without harm the fauna.


----------



## Complexity

Some success, but not total yet.

I managed to bump up my CO2 a notch which is now turning the color yellow. That seems to have stopped the spreading of the BBA. It was about to explode in my tank as I found small tufts appearing on all the rocks, the filter pipes, even the substrate! :icon_eek:

I manually cleaned the pipes and rocks. I'm not seeing any more BBA coming back, and it seems the explosive spreading has stopped.

That just leaves me to getting rid of what is in there.

I have not seen the results I had hoped for by squirting it on, but I did not turn off my filters so that may be the problem. My amanos handled the 40ml dosing without any problems. I even added more Excel by spraying it on things I could pull out of the water so there was really more than just 40ml in the tank. At one point, the whole tank smelled like Excel. No harm to anything. It knocked back the BBA where I squirted it, but I didn't keep up with it because I'm almost out. I'll try again when I get more.

I'll be moving the tank to my house in 2-4 weeks so I'm considering either hitting the plants with Excel sprayed on or doing an H2O2 treatment. It'll be one of the very few times I could treat the BBA while the fish are out of the tank.

So for anyone reading, I can confirm that 40ml of Excel in a 75g tank is not harmful to amano shrimp. I could not find confirmation of that anywhere so this will be my contribution to the thread. :smile:


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## redfierydragon

silly question here, but since seeing the success of others using excel as a spot treater, has anyone ever heard/tried using excel as a dip? I have about 100ml left of excel which I haven't used in about a year and a half since acquiring shrimp. I have 10 adult amanos, 7 adult red cherrys, and about 20 or so juvenile red cherrys and I don't want to endanger the juvies with the excel.

I've heard of how great potassium permanganate is as a dip but I was wondering if excel could work as a dip before I go out and try something more potent.

I have a red ozelot which had a little BBA which then spread it to the neighboring wisteria, anubias hastifolia, ludwigia repens, and my cryptocoyrne lutea. I wanted to try the excel first considering how fragile crypts tend to be. The BBA on the crypt has already killed off a leaf


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## Complexity

I've never used it as a dip (yet), but I've put some excel in a small spray bottle and sprayed it on plants while they're out of the water. I just put them back in the water after that (with filters off).

One week from today, I'll be breaking down my entire tank to move it. When I do, I will dip, spray, squirt, whatever it takes to kill the BBA from the plants. So I'll be able to report back on my results.

I can say that Excel doesn't harm amano shrimp (at least not in my tank). I've used t turkey baster to squirt 1/4 cup of excel into my Crypt lucens while the filters were off, and the amanos just had to come check it out. So I'm sure they received quite a bit of the Excel. Didn't seem to bother them.

Other than that, I accidentally did a large overdose of Excel in my Red Cherry Shrimp tank. I had just changed the water in that tank and my 20L. When I dosed the Excel, I got my numbers wrong and actually dosed the "after w/c" dose intended for my 20L in my 5g with the RCS. So that's 4 times the large dose. Shrimp did not care. Didn't hurt any of them (that were visible to my eyes).

So my experience with Excel with amanos and rcs is that they are not harmed.

I've also confirmed that amanos are not harmed by H2O2 when large amounts are squirted into an area and allowed to sit for 30 minutes while the amanos wandered through the area, checking it all out. Again, no noticeable affect on the amanos. In fact, I've treated with H2O2 AND Excel at the same time with no problems.

I have not tried H2O2 in my rcs tank.

Remember to ask me later if I forget to post the results of using Excel as a dip when I move my tank.


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## renatl

I have the 2 Liter of Excel and have been dosing twice the recommended dosage (2) cap fulls and in one weeks time I have seen the black algae in my tank disappear. My fish have not been bothered by it. It really works guys plus some good cleaners like the rubber nose plecos and true SAE's. Richard


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## Complexity

Update on my BBA battle. I found only one thing that really worked to get rid of the BBA. Take care of my plants.

Once I raised the CO2 as high as I could get it and maintained a solid fert program, the BBA just lost the fight. Helping also are 10 young SAEs, but I don't credit them with the full clean up. It was really the CO2 that did the trick.

I just broke down my tank to move it which let me get a good look at the plants, and I really don't see any BBA. The one crypt which got it so badly continues to have some, but it's knocked back really hard with new leaves not getting any BBA. I think I'll just cut off all the leaves and let it grow back. That will get the last of the BBA.

From there, it's just a matter of keeping up with the CO2 and ferts. The same things that make the plants grow like mad also kills out the BBA.


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## mickitaz

Okay, so if I understand the method of deployment... 

I dose the Excel right before lights out and shut my powerhead and diffuser off. I maintain my normal fertilizing schedule, and bump up the co2 (pressurized system). 

Do I target the excel to the affected plants (which is pretty much everything)? Do I cut back on my lighting?

thanks.


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## Complexity

I found that the CO2 was the main key. When I finally got it to 30+ppm, the BBA stopped spreading. Then all I had to do was kill what was already there.

I got 10 young SAEs which helped. I also treated with Excel which helped. And on the one plant that nothing seemed to work on — Crypt lucens — I removed all leaves that appeared to have even a tiny speck of BBA on it. Most plants ended up with 1 or maybe 2 leaves while some had no leaves at the end. Then I planted it back in the tank. So far, so good.

One thing I did notice about the BBA on that plant is that the new leaves did not have BBA even though it wouldn't seem to go away or die on the older leaves. That's a real test of how BBA responds to CO2. Nothing stopped it from spreading until I got the CO2 level high enough.


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## cdub1955

i want to try pushing up my co2 levels. I have a milwaukee controller but honestly i have not used it anymore to control the co2. I just use it to monitor PH anymore, as I use a drop checker. If i try to push the co2 levels do you recommend using the monitor? I leave the co2 on 24/7.....

Chris


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## Complexity

I'm not sure what you mean by monitor. Do you mean the pH reading on the pH controller? If so, that's what should tell you your pH reading which drops as CO2 is injected. If you want to add more CO2, then turn the knob on the controller just a little. See how that works, and if you need more, just turn it more.

Be sure you're maintaining your pH Controller's probe so it won't go bad while you're using it.


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## plantbrain

Complexity said:


> Update on my BBA battle. I found only one thing that really worked to get rid of the BBA. Take care of my plants.
> 
> Once I raised the CO2 as high as I could get it and maintained a solid fert program, the BBA just lost the fight. Helping also are 10 young SAEs, but I don't credit them with the full clean up. It was really the CO2 that did the trick.
> 
> I just broke down my tank to move it which let me get a good look at the plants, and I really don't see any BBA. The one crypt which got it so badly continues to have some, but it's knocked back really hard with new leaves not getting any BBA. I think I'll just cut off all the leaves and let it grow back. That will get the last of the BBA.
> 
> From there, it's just a matter of keeping up with the CO2 and ferts. The same things that make the plants grow like mad also kills out the BBA.


Ye hath seen the light and the path to enlightenment.

Other folks.............take note.
BBA is a scrourge, been there myself a long time ago, but once you figure out the root cause and how to address the plant needs, Excel, H2O2 etc etc.......all the quick "cures" no longer matter.

Your tank starts looking nice, you are not chasing one species to the next.
Isn't that what you wanted to do in the first place?
The way to solve algae issues is staring you right in the face and is deceptively simple.

Your goal was to grow plants, not kill algae, so grow the plants!
I do no think there are many in the know that will tell you differently.

The focus is always new growth when it comes to algae, stop that, you beat all species of algae.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hilde

I mean, take a look at what Tom Barr has proscribed in the past.

B/G algae - low-no nitrates
G/W - high levels of ammonia.
green algae - increase phosphates

Is it possible that high phosphates can cause nitrates to become low?


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## unirdna

plantbrain said:


> Your goal was to grow plants, not kill algae, so grow the plants! ... The focus is always new growth when it comes to algae, stop that, you beat all species of algae.


Anyone struggling with algae issues should print the above words and tape them to their aquarium stand. 

Proper water parameters (ie. healthy plants) is the "immune system", Excel is the "salve".


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## brion0

> Your goal was to grow plants, not kill algae, so grow the plants!


When I see a post by *plantbrain*, I read it. Alot goes over my head, but I think I can understand this.

Thanks,

Brion


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## amp

Im battling BBA & hair/thread algae right now and I have literally stood in front of my tank and said those exact words "Your goal was to grow plants, not kill algae, so grow the plants!" I know that part of my problem right now is under filtration since my magnum crapped out last week so Im only running a 2213 on my 55. I have another 2213 on the way so hopefully between that some RCS, Amanos and a couple more otos I'll be able to get eveything back into balance.

On a side note does anyone know if night time aeration with an airstone has any effect on BBA?


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## Complexity

amp said:


> On a side note does anyone know if night time aeration with an airstone has any effect on BBA?


Late reply, but I'm catching up after being gone for awhile. The answer to your question is no. The only real way to get rid of BBA is to increase the CO2 to 30ppm or more. Once you get it that high, the BBA will stop spreading and then it's just a matter of killing/removing the BBA that was already in the tank.


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## joey2000uk

*Excel vs Easycarbo*

Hi all, my first post on this site, very helpfull thread.

My question is this... I have found what appers to be a cheaper alternative to excel called "easy life easycarbo". And was wondering if anyone had any feedback about this product?

Also i have some reluctance to use these aldehyde based products because i have 'pellia' (MT) which i have heard is vulnerable to it. alsoCladophora aegagropila (moss balls) are present and i know these are a colony of algae so am worried these may be susceptable to the treatments.


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## unirdna

I've never heard of this product. Here's a bump to see if anyone else has.

Excel will fry clado with direct contact, but doesn't seem to kill it with regular dosing.


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## tazcrash69

I've never heard of that product either. 

And for what it's worth, I have 2 of those moss balls in my 125. I do dose Excel daily (10 - 20 ml), and the only time I've made a brown patch when I got to close spot dosing with H2O2.


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## joey2000uk

Well i have been using it since tuesday (3 doses) Dosing directly onto trouble areas with filtrers off (only reccomended dose), Bba has been turning red and dying, hair algae seems greatly reduced, all very good, and costs 25% less than excel


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## NeonFlux

I think he's referring to this product

http://www.aquaessentials.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=208&products_id=1716


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## C2C

whats BBA


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## Haagenize

C2C said:


> whats BBA


black brush algae


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## moogoo

^ black brush algae.


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## Joetee

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm
Here is a good site for your algae questions.
I hope this works.
Joe


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## plantbrain

Easy Carb is used in Europe, it's more concentrated, but a similar product.
Excel is useful since it have a slight agicidial effect, but importantly, it adds CO2 for the plants at a lower rate than say CO2 gas, but it adds what causes the issue to begin with: CO2 was too low.

To address BBA, it's pretty simple.
1. Reduce light intensity
2. This reduces CO2 demand
3. You can adjust the CO2 back up, you miight try test kits, they sort of work for some, not at all for others, I think watching the fish and plants is the bets method given the trade offs, Riccia makes a good bioindicator, when it pearls well the last 1/2 of the day, then you have decent CO2.
4. Add Excel or whatever, and follow the regular dosing labels. 5mls per 10 Gal daily is fine for that. You do not want to double dose and all that, frigging be patient and do not rush to kill fish, fry plants and rush things, be patient, it'll not grow or get worse if you are adding the Excel and correcting the CO2, if so, then you really messed up the CO2 pretty bad.

5. CO2 is not a toy or something to take lightly and be all casual about.
Many folks are then learn the hard lesson and kill their fish or have them gasping at the surface when they added more and then ran off to work all day........then come home all freaked out.

6. So do this CO2 adjustment slowly and carefully, watch the fish and plants.

CO2 is about 99% of all fish deaths in planted tanks, yes..........99%, the others are due to poor filter cleaning, Excel overdosing, H2O2 over dosing etc
All things due to not realizing they are playing with fire and being impatient.

These stat's do not lie, the KNO3/KH2PO4/Trace/GH related deaths? Never met one, but plenty poo poo me over that issue without any associated evidence of any sort of risk.......
Why not tell folks not to add CO2?
Humm........

7. Lower doses over longer time frames do less damage to the plants/fish, less risk, the algae will die off just fine, give it time.

8. Spend some serious time thinking about CO2 and how to add it, circulate it, measure it, and how to change the demand for it(increase/decrease light), then tweak that and worry less about the other stuff and most all algae issues.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## manny

I usually get this algae all over my driftwood. I take the pieces out lay then on a metal tray and spray H2O2 over the algae usally for 15 mins then it dies. gotta carefull though make sure you rinse and put the wood in a bucket ull of water so the peroxide that was soake into the wood gets diluted or else you will be killing alot of stuff in ur tank


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## niko

Here we go again talking about algae.

My recent experience with BBA:

6 ft long tank full of manzanita wood. Covered in BBA. Must be two 5 gal. buckets of it if I decide to collect it.

Showed up after a few fish died in the tank and I didn't remove them. BBA took over in 2 or 3 days. I believe that BBA shows up when organics are increased and present.

Let tank be for 4-5 months. BBA became splendid. Most people visiting my house love the tank.

Decided to spot treat with Excel. Squirted 10 ml. over an area 5" x 1". BBA turns blood red on Day 2. Falls off on Day 5-7. Leaves clean wood. Does not return on that spot. Repeated that on 2 more spots. Same timing, same result.

Nice! But also at the time of the first spot treatment I put a golf ball sized amount of BBA in a cup of aquarium water with 25 ml. Excel. That's the equivalent of adding 2.5 gallons of Excel in a 25 gal. tank. The BBA in the cup never turned red. It never died. It died only after I added more Excel to the cup.

To me BBA is a sign of poor maintenance practices. It'a creature that can withstand salt baths, pouring boiling water over it, even bleach. 

--Nikolay


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## NJAquaBarren

10 days of Flourish Excel eliminated most BBA. Stressed the fish a bit, the Threadfin Rainbows didn;t fair well, but no other casualties. BBA is not quite gone, but down to a manageable level. 

We'll see what happens next.


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## non_compliance

Currently adding 30 ml/day to my 65. Lots of barbs, some geos, and some cats... no fish showing any signs of stress. I am 1 week into treatment. BBA turning red. Brown crud algae unaffected. Diatoms unaffected. Waiting for week 2 of treatment to see what final outcome is. So far so good. PLants have taken off considerably.

Adding first thing in the morning. I wanted the plants to uptake some of it, as well as some of it to degrade during the day so there wouldn't be overdose to the fish from full strength all night.

No c02. Will be starting EI dosing after treatment is finished.


Also, for treatment of a few anubias that I have, I actually removed the plant from the tank and squirted excel directly on the leaves. Left it for about 10 sec. then put it back in the tank. This DID have an effect on the actual leaves, but has not killed the plant. It seems to have slightly damaged them though and caused them to have a milky film. Killed everything on the leaves... BBA, brown algae, etc...


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## @[email protected]

just redid my 20L and within a week or so my foreground had dustings of BBA. a week later there was a good amount. i turned off the filter and powerhead, and spot-dosed 15ml (150% dose) onto the affected areas and a lot of the algae is turning a pink color, which i assume means that it is dying.
in addition none of my amanos nor RCS in the tank have been hurt by the excel.
just wanted to post an experience up here for others.


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## anastasisariel

just thought id mention a not to. hydrogen peroxide will kill riccia faster than the BBA in my experience.


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## cott

Two weeks ago I got hit with a case of BBA that is covering my crypt spirals. Not so much on other plants but it will get there. I started dosing with Excel 3 days ago and some of the algae has started to redden.

I do not overdose simply because I fear for my fish. I am following the directions on my bottle. (Which BTW........the dosing on the 2 liter bottle is different than on the smaller bottles so be careful with the dosing recommendations here. Read your bottle label!)

I will slowly increase dosage, if needed, but for me, I'm just too nervous about my fish to suddenly subject them to 2 - 3 x recommended dosage plus I have some vals in the tank.

I am also running my DIY CO2 that I don't run on a normal basis. My tank is a 55 gallon with a shop light over it with plant bulbs. I was hoping to keep the tank simple without high lights and CO2. First time I've had BBA and was shocked at how fast this stuff grows and can take over.

Great thread here. Thanks


----------



## Vinno

I started my excel treatment to get rid of thread/hair algae.

35Gal tank, did the recommend dosage.
Been dossing bit over 3x the dosage.

35gal tank, been doing 3 capfuls. Everything is surviving, will try a heavy dose the next week if see no improvements. I didnt do a 50% water change, is that needed?


----------



## shane3fan

I started a full blown ATTACK on BBA this past Sunday in my 29 gal. I pulled out my plants--dipped them in peroxide for a while then dipped them in an overdosed bowl of Excel for a while, trimmed off any of the leaves that I thought were too far gone and replanted them. Hopefully, this treatment as well as the addition of pressurized CO2 over the weekend will get the algae in check. The remaining BBA is red fuzz at this point and the plants look happier already after only a day and a half of CO2.


----------



## BG1772

This is a great sticky. Thanks to all who have contributed. I've been using the information here to start attacking the outbreak of BBA in my tank. My experience started well, but it appears to have stalled. After a week the BBA turned red and began to die. However, since then it appears to just be dormant. It is does not appear to be growing, but it doesn’t appear to be dying either. My Excel dosing is 40 ml after 50% water change, then 12 to 15 ml daily (50% water change every Sunday). 

I have a 40 Gal long tank, which is fairly heavily planted. There is good flow with two Eheims (2213 & 2215) plus a power head. I am running pressurized CO2 and my drop checker is in the Green / Yellow Green level. The CO2 only runs while the lights (10 hrs)are on. I fertilize my tank using the EI methodology.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. If more information is needed, please let me know.


----------



## TheVisionary78

Great post and a great read. I have never had BBA before. Also I have never used Excel. However I run a low/mid light tank so I am wondering is this a common problem with high lighting?


----------



## C3H6O3

I had some BBA in one of my tanks (55gal). Used Excel at 3X dosage for 2 days, then 2X dosage every other day for the remainder of the next 2 weeks. Stuff is all gone.


I now use 2X dosage 3 days per week, and all is under control. When I do a 20 gal water change, I take 10ml of Excel and 10ml of water, put it in an empty small spray bottle, and I spray any parts of the tank wall/heater/top glass, etc, with this mixture. I wait about 5-10 minutes, then fill up the tank. Kills all of the residual algae, and it beats scrubbing those parts! 

h


----------



## taniner

This is strange... when I spot treat with Excel... my BBA turns gray to almost white before its shrinks and is totally gone.


----------



## barbarossa4122

taniner said:


> This is strange... when I spot treat with Excel... my BBA turns gray to almost white before its shrinks and is totally gone.


Mine turned pink, then white and gone in 4 days with Metricide and h2o2 treatment. Now I raised my lights about 8 to 10" above the tanks and I am planning on raising them 12" this weekend. I need to go to Home Depot to get some diy stuff.


----------



## kcrossley

How are you guys able to determine your CO2 ppm?


----------



## kdogg

I've had good and bad luck with excel. I have used in a 25 gal with great success. The only casualties was cork screw val melted down. All algae in the tank was punished and cleared up tank, Recently I tried to attack the bba in my 120 tall two different ways I tried a bath for a few plants and saw results on crypt parva the next day. My bath was 20 ml in about half a gal. Seeing work on the parva I figured why a few other plants woops sry not a scientific name buff but my pygmy chain sword and crypt. wendti melted down to nothing. I kept them in the bath for about an hour and a half same as the parva. At the same time I am treating the tank at 2x and all the wendtti melted down and the val is doing great. Only good thing no fish deaths actually have a few whiptail fry doin fine. 

A big water change hopefully brings some of it around

Good thing local fish club is having an auction in the few weeks might be able to restock

40 dead plants is going to be a lot of rotten plants think I'm going to have a huge outbreak of all algae soon

Live and learn I'd try excel again just at 1.5x


----------



## kevmo911

Might as well resurrect this thread 

Okay, I was reading through this thread the other day and wanted to figure out which of my plants I should be worried about with overdosing excel. I came up with a list of plants that people had said didn't fare well.

First, multiple claims of poor reactions on:
Lagarosiphon madagascarensis
Riccia
Pellia
Hornwort
fissidens
vals
crypts

And possibly:
C. balansae
HC
egeria densa
marselia
amazon swords

Generally speaking, don't spot dose mosses or any "fragile" plants, and when dosing the whole tank, scaling excel down to 2x (instead of 3x) recommended dose seems to have less detrimental results regarding those plants. It's probably worth mentioning that crypts are very temperamental anyway and will probably bounce back. And this list may not be correct; it's just what people made comments on. The second grouping of plants especially is unconfirmed.

Also, some made comments about agitated (or dying) shrimp, discus, and cardinals, though Amanos are apparently beasts. Again, probably a good idea to take it easy with the dosing.

This helped me, and I hope it helps some others.


----------



## discuspaul

Wow - what a thread - let's keep this going.
My .02 - IME, overdosing with Excel is certainly not the answer. It can be dangerous - especially if you allow any of your fish to get close to your dosing.
If you're trying to eradicate BBA, try this:
When doing a W/C, dose excel (but not exceeding the recommended dosage on any one day), at full strength, slowly & at close range, from a test kit pipette, or plastic syringe, directly onto the affected areas. Over a period of time, you should be able to permanently rid yourself of BBA.
After the dosing, the BBA will begin to turn whiteish/gray within 24 hours, and die off. Then just brush it off & let filtration remove it. Has worked for me several times. 
Try it - you'll see.


----------



## kevmo911

I'm running out of my current Excel supply and was looking into buying a large bottle. I started thinking about alternatives and looked into glutaraldehyde. I know a couple people are using Metricide as a cheaper alternative to Excel, and found "Metricide Plus 30", which is a 3.4% glut solution. Anybody tried this?


----------



## AirBeezy

I have a 10g with Amano and RCS. I had a small outbreak of hair BBA. I have increased my Excel dose to x2 every other day. When I dose I shut down the filter for about .5 hour. It's been about and it's starting to turn red. Woooohoooo!


----------



## Vancat2

just found this and will embark upon it.
26 pages!!!!


----------



## gvfarns

My tank had no green algae anywhere but was overrun with BBA and more especially staghorn algae (lots of long strands). It was on every leaf and killing most of my plants. It was also growing and spreading quite rapidly.

I did an initial dose of excel at twice the recommended initial dosage. The next day I did a 15% water change and dosed at twice the recommended maintenance dosage. That was it. A couple of days later some of the algae turned red, the next day it was all red. Eventually it turned clear and completely disappeared without any negative consequences. Let me be clear, I only did those two doses...I didn't continue using it. 

I decreased the lighting period at the same time as I did this.

It's been about a month since then and I have not dosed with excel since (I do dose ferts). I have not seen a single strand of either BBA or staghorn. My tank it completely cured it would seem. Excel's the best thing ever. It killed the algae I had and the photo period change seems to have prevented its return.

Since the dosage, my java ferns have taken off like they never have before, as has my moss. Also my E tellenus has spread like mad since then. My S subulata has never grown or spread. Don't know why.

Further information:

-- I have malaysian trumpet snails and an otto, which is one reason I didn't have green algae.

-- At the recommendation of Seachem I turned off my UV sterilizer during the excel treatment and since I haven't had any green water, sickness, or new fish since then I haven't turned it back on. However unlikely, it is possible that the sterilizer was a contributing factor to my algae problem in some roundabout fashion.


----------



## kcrossley

gvfarns said:


> However unlikely, it is possible that the sterilizer was a contributing factor to my algae problem in some roundabout fashion.


Congratulations! I've had BBA and it's a PITA. 

I'm curious as to why you think this?


----------



## Vancat2

I removed my UV because I wanted to increase filter flow rate. So maybe that is a factor also?


----------



## cott

*Toms very smart post*

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/839477-post356.html

This is the smartest post I have read concerning Excel for a long time. I dose as directed and simply dose longer. Even double dosing can kill but you read so often of people dosing 3-4x what was recommended. That scares me! Gez, what's the rush? BBA didn't get there in one day so give it more than one day to go away.

I see tanks sometimes with beautiful plants but not a fish in the tank. Guess why? :icon_twis

Good job Tom. So many respect you so much.


----------



## Vancat2

@cott: agreed! I have been dosing the rec dosage for a few weeks because I have fry in the tank & didn't want to harm them dosing 2x or more. BBA seems to be going away slowly! Patience....


----------



## hbosman

plantbrain said:


> Easy Carb is used in Europe, it's more concentrated, but a similar product.
> Excel is useful since it have a slight agicidial effect, but importantly, it adds CO2 for the plants at a lower rate than say CO2 gas, but it adds what causes the issue to begin with: CO2 was too low.
> 
> To address BBA, it's pretty simple.
> 1. Reduce light intensity
> 2. This reduces CO2 demand
> 3. You can adjust the CO2 back up, you miight try test kits, they sort of work for some, not at all for others, I think watching the fish and plants is the bets method given the trade offs, Riccia makes a good bioindicator, when it pearls well the last 1/2 of the day, then you have decent CO2.
> 4. Add Excel or whatever, and follow the regular dosing labels. 5mls per 10 Gal daily is fine for that. You do not want to double dose and all that, frigging be patient and do not rush to kill fish, fry plants and rush things, be patient, it'll not grow or get worse if you are adding the Excel and correcting the CO2, if so, then you really messed up the CO2 pretty bad.
> 
> 5. CO2 is not a toy or something to take lightly and be all casual about.
> Many folks are then learn the hard lesson and kill their fish or have them gasping at the surface when they added more and then ran off to work all day........then come home all freaked out.
> 
> 6. So do this CO2 adjustment slowly and carefully, watch the fish and plants.
> 
> CO2 is about 99% of all fish deaths in planted tanks, yes..........99%, the others are due to poor filter cleaning, Excel overdosing, H2O2 over dosing etc
> All things due to not realizing they are playing with fire and being impatient.
> 
> These stat's do not lie, the KNO3/KH2PO4/Trace/GH related deaths? Never met one, but plenty poo poo me over that issue without any associated evidence of any sort of risk.......
> Why not tell folks not to add CO2?
> Humm........
> 
> 7. Lower doses over longer time frames do less damage to the plants/fish, less risk, the algae will die off just fine, give it time.
> 
> 8. Spend some serious time thinking about CO2 and how to add it, circulate it, measure it, and how to change the demand for it(increase/decrease light), then tweak that and worry less about the other stuff and most all algae issues.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I just wanted to bump this since it should answer some questions posted lately.


----------



## DJRansome

I read the first six pages and did not see any fish deaths. I'm wondering if my recent fish deaths might be attributable to Excel.

During a water change I added a full "new tank" dose of Excel to the tank and dribbled it directly into the plants. The water was quite low. 

It sat for maybe 30 minutes before I refilled the tank. I did this once before, but did not disturb the fish and refilled the tank (thus diluting the Excel) more quickly. This time, while the water was low I netted a fish or two as well so the Excel may have been stirred up more than last time. 

I lost a couple of adult haps and synos. The refill water was not the killer because I set up a new tank minutes before and the fish in that tank were/are fine.

Has anything like this happened to others?


----------



## redmary51

I have been working my way through this whole thread but haven't had time to read it all yet.

I added some activated carbon to my filter to clear the tannins out of the water. Will the carbon affect how the Excel works?


----------



## Chucklett

gvfarns said:


> My tank had no green algae anywhere but was overrun with BBA and more especially staghorn algae (lots of long strands). It was on every leaf and killing most of my plants. It was also growing and spreading quite rapidly.
> 
> I did an initial dose of excel at twice the recommended initial rate. The next day I did a 15% water change and dosed at twice the recommended maintenance dosage. That was it. A couple of days later some of the algae turned red, the next day it was all red. Eventually it turned clear and completely disappeared without any negative consequences. Let me be clear, I only did those two doses...I didn't continue using it.
> 
> I decreased the lighting period at the same time as I did this.
> 
> It's been about a month since then and I have not dosed with excel since (I do dose ferts). I have not seen a single strand of either BBA or staghorn. My tank it completely cured it would seem. Excel's the best thing ever. It killed the algae I had and the photo period change seems to have prevented its return.


Does anyone know if this works with EasyLife EasyCarbo?

My tank has only been set up about 2 months. I dont have any fish yet because I wanted the plants to get rooted, settled & growing first. 

As with many new tanks, I have an assortment of algae and my Weeping Moss was all but dead so last week I started dosing EasyCarbo at the recommended rate. The Moss Balls have started releasing wee bubbles, Im sure a couple of strands of the Weeping Moss is fighting a slow comeback BUT I now have Staghorn algae (or Green Hair algae?) going beserk on the log of Weeping Moss. 
Has the EasyCarbo encouraged the Green Hairy stuff? Should I "spot" dose it with EasyCarbo? Should I try gvfarns' above method?

I really get where you're all coming from about being patient, but I really dont want to lose my Weeping Moss to this stuff, especially since the moss is trying to recouperate....

I switched my UV off last week and have just turned my lights down yet again (so now 7 hours per day). I dont have any form of CO2 injection.

pH 7.4, Ammonia/Nitrite 0ppm, Nitrate about 7.5ppm, phosphates 0ppm (possibly tiny trace at 0.1ppm?), temp 24c (75f)

Thanks.

PS. Sorry if the answer is already in this thread..... at 26 pages, Ive not had chance to sit and read through it all


----------



## kevmo911

I've heard that EasyCarbo is similar to Excel, but I have no experience with it. I'd suggest finding the chemical breakdown of EasyCarbo and checking on the glutaraldehyde content. If it's around 1.5% or so, it should work the same as Excel. If not, then you can modify the dose, (or water it down with distilled water if it's over 1.5%).

If it has glut in it, then you can also substitute Metricide or Cidex for the same effects.


----------



## macclellan

DJRansome said:


> I read the first six pages and did not see any fish deaths. I'm wondering if my recent fish deaths might be attributable to Excel.
> 
> During a water change I added a full "new tank" dose of Excel to the tank and dribbled it directly into the plants. The water was quite low.
> 
> It sat for maybe 30 minutes before I refilled the tank. I did this once before, but did not disturb the fish and refilled the tank (thus diluting the Excel) more quickly. This time, while the water was low I netted a fish or two as well so the Excel may have been stirred up more than last time.
> 
> I lost a couple of adult haps and synos. The refill water was not the killer because I set up a new tank minutes before and the fish in that tank were/are fine.
> 
> Has anything like this happened to others?


 It sounds like you did a full dose for the total volume of your aquarium and let it sit for 30 minutes while the water was "quite low." You probably overdosed that small volume of water and killed your fish. E.g. full dose in 1/4 of tank volume is a 4x overdose, etc.


----------



## Burks

I'm running into BBA issues now. 

40g breeder.
96w PC 50/50 bulb (8-10 hours)
Pressurized CO2 (green in my drop checker)

I have a lot of Anubis but have quite a bit of fast growing stems. Recently I've been seeing a lot of BBA appearing on older leaves of all my plants. I do not dose any other nutrients and feed my fish several very small feedings each day. I don't have high bioload fish either (8 White Clouds, 6 Australian Rainbows @ 2" each). Filtration is a XP2. I do 25% WC's every 7-10 days through two filters (not RO, just filtered to 5 microns and a carbon block).

Any ideas what else to do other than spot treatments?


----------



## kevmo911

Burks said:


> I'm running into BBA issues now.
> 
> 40g breeder.
> 96w PC 50/50 bulb (8-10 hours)
> Pressurized CO2 (green in my drop checker)
> 
> I have a lot of Anubis but have quite a bit of fast growing stems. Recently I've been seeing a lot of BBA appearing on older leaves of all my plants. I do not dose any other nutrients and feed my fish several very small feedings each day. I don't have high bioload fish either (8 White Clouds, 6 Australian Rainbows @ 2" each). Filtration is a XP2. I do 25% WC's every 7-10 days through two filters (not RO, just filtered to 5 microns and a carbon block).
> 
> Any ideas what else to do other than spot treatments?


Raise the lights, reduce the photoperiod, and/or increase CO2 a touch. The yellowish side of green should still be safe for fish. Think "Mountain Dew".


----------



## macclellan

You should definitely be dosing nutrients, probably swap out that 50/50 bulb for a freshwater bulb, reduce lighting period to 6-8 and maybe raise it a bit too such as with legs if you aren't already. 40B is only 16" tall.


----------



## Burks

macclellan said:


> You should definitely be dosing nutrients, probably swap out that 50/50 bulb for a freshwater bulb, reduce lighting period to 6-8 and maybe raise it a bit too such as with legs if you aren't already. 40B is only 16" tall.


I'd switch it out but I think I'm already overpowering the plants/nutrient system as is. Going to a full 6500k bulb would just be too much. Light sits about 6" off the tank top.

I'll try cutting the lighting period.

And I'm working on getting some ferts but don't want to pay some of the outrageous prices I've been seeing.


----------



## macclellan

Get dry fertilizers. See the sticky in water params forum.


----------



## Burks

macclellan said:


> Get dry fertilizers. See the sticky in water params forum.


That's what I was going to do. Had them before but gave them away when I gave up on a planted tank.


----------



## redmary51

I have asked this question and I saw someone else ask it, but I have not seen an answer.

Does anyone know if running activated carbon in your filter will affect how the Excel works?


----------



## Chucklett

Dont quote me, but I remember reading somewhere quite a while ago that using any liquid ferts is pretty pointless if you have carbon in your filter.

Will be interesting to hear opinions on that one! Also, what about UV with liquid ferts?


----------



## Vancat2

My tank did much better after I disconnected the UV. Perhaps it just increased filter flow rate, not sure.


----------



## JonWF

As of this morning the BBA is essetnailly gone form my tank. I attribute this to the Excel Flourish. I double dosed 1x and turned off the CO2 for a day or two. Turned my tank very cloudy. Three day slater i turned back on the CO2 and the tank cloudiness went away. Then about 5 days later I did a 50% water change with tap water. Now 3 days after that the BBA has evaporated. Excel did not affect the fish, but melted all my val within a day or two (except for some roots that seem to be alive) and crypts. Everything else is fine. I am happy. Good luck!!!


----------



## tetra73

I need to bump this thread......I was looking to see if I should dose excel in my high tech tank to deal with some BBA issues with my 2 weeks old DHG. Oh man, reading this thread, I believe back then people didn't know about the BBA killing property of excel. And people talking about dosing 5x???  Or even more? I didn't hear about plants melting in this thread or maybe people didn't know that certain plants can melt and fish can die too. One member wasn't sure if a 2L bottle would be enough for his BBA treatment, in his 75g. Hahahah.... Maybe not if he is dosing 20x the amount....


----------



## Char

I bought a Siamese Flying Fox for my bba problem 5 days ago and today I don't have a speck of Algae left on my plants or anywhere in my tank at all. The fish ate everything right off. It grabs it and rips it right off by it's root. And now my plants ar lush and green again. I would suggest getting only one because they are aggressive towards each other when they become adults. They won't harm other fish. And lower your light output.


----------



## Char

*Getting rid of BBA*

To get rid of your BBA get a Siamese Flying Fox. They love the stuff. They will rip it out by the root and chomp it down. I had a problem with BBA bought One and 4 days later every bit of algae on my plants and in the tank was GONE! Get only one even though they tell you to get two because they turn aggressive towards each other when they mature. If you can find a true Siamese Algae Eater would be even better but they're hard to find. I believe you can house more than one Siamese Algae Eater..


----------



## JoraaÑ

Siamese Algae Eater only eats that stuff when its young after a while they go for flakes, pellets etc. Siamese Algae Eater is only to fix the problem on hand not to solve the root cause...High co2 30 ppm+ keeps BBA and other Algae in Bay. 

*@tetra73*~~Since you Bumped this thread expect to hear from other members to use Metricide 14 instead for cost effectiveness...If I were you I will use *Excel* no matter few $$ here or there. I never got the same result using Metricide 14 as compared to Excel few years back.

Here is why I will use Excel

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106868&highlight=

Post #1, followed by Post #12, 14.


----------



## herns

JoraaÑ said:


> *@tetra73*~~Since you Bumped this thread expect to hear from other members to use Metricide 14 instead for cost effectiveness...


Yup! Metricide 14 works for me. Way cheaper than Excel and provide the same results. Been using for 3 years now.


----------



## rwong2k

I found after an excel treatment red ramshorns snails eat the dead bba much quicker and better than sae from my personal experience

Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2


----------



## tetra73

JoraaÑ said:


> Siamese Algae Eater only eats that stuff when its young after a while they go for flakes, pellets etc. Siamese Algae Eater is only to fix the problem on hand not to solve the root cause...High co2 30 ppm+ keeps BBA and other Algae in Bay.
> 
> *@tetra73*~~Since you Bumped this thread expect to hear from other members to use Metricide 14 instead for cost effectiveness...If I were you I will use *Excel* no matter few $$ here or there. I never got the same result using Metricide 14 as compared to Excel few years back.
> 
> Here is why I will use Excel
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=106868&highlight=
> 
> Post #1, followed by Post #12, 14.


I think I will continue to use Excel and planning to get the 2l bottle. I can get a 2l bottle from Dr Foster and Smith for $31. Maybe with free shipping if I spend more than $49. It will last me a year. With Metricide 14, it could last more for the similar price but I don't believe either excel or metricide 14 could last for more than a year before they lose their effectiveness as a carbon source as well as inhibiting the growth of BBA. 

More importantly. both of my tanks are used to excel right now even at 2x dosing. I certainly do not want to have my plants beginning to melt just because they aren't used to metricide 14.


----------



## ericwithac

This is a great thread! I will starting overdosing 2x Excel and upping my CO2, which i need to do anyway as my drop checker isnt that light green im looking for! Thanks!


----------



## dzega

heres my experience.
it is hard to kill off BBA with excel at late stage, but if tank is almost clean then recommended morning dose(1-2ml/10gal) of it will keep BBA away for sure.


----------



## mikepetro

plantbrain said:


> Easy Carb is used in Europe, it's more concentrated, but a similar product.
> Excel is useful since it have a slight agicidial effect, but importantly, it adds CO2 for the plants at a lower rate than say CO2 gas, but it adds what causes the issue to begin with: CO2 was too low.
> 
> To address BBA, it's pretty simple.
> 1. Reduce light intensity
> 2. This reduces CO2 demand
> 3. You can adjust the CO2 back up, you miight try test kits, they sort of work for some, not at all for others, I think watching the fish and plants is the bets method given the trade offs, Riccia makes a good bioindicator, when it pearls well the last 1/2 of the day, then you have decent CO2.
> 4. Add Excel or whatever, and follow the regular dosing labels. 5mls per 10 Gal daily is fine for that. You do not want to double dose and all that, frigging be patient and do not rush to kill fish, fry plants and rush things, be patient, it'll not grow or get worse if you are adding the Excel and correcting the CO2, if so, then you really messed up the CO2 pretty bad.
> 
> 5. CO2 is not a toy or something to take lightly and be all casual about.
> Many folks are then learn the hard lesson and kill their fish or have them gasping at the surface when they added more and then ran off to work all day........then come home all freaked out.
> 
> 6. So do this CO2 adjustment slowly and carefully, watch the fish and plants.
> 
> CO2 is about 99% of all fish deaths in planted tanks, yes..........99%, the others are due to poor filter cleaning, Excel overdosing, H2O2 over dosing etc
> All things due to not realizing they are playing with fire and being impatient.
> 
> These stat's do not lie, the KNO3/KH2PO4/Trace/GH related deaths? Never met one, but plenty poo poo me over that issue without any associated evidence of any sort of risk.......
> Why not tell folks not to add CO2?
> Humm........
> 
> 7. Lower doses over longer time frames do less damage to the plants/fish, less risk, the algae will die off just fine, give it time.
> 
> 8. Spend some serious time thinking about CO2 and how to add it, circulate it, measure it, and how to change the demand for it(increase/decrease light), then tweak that and worry less about the other stuff and most all algae issues.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



Really old thread I know. I am hoping somebody (especially Tom) is still viewing it.

Here is my setup:









As you see, I am using the Plant Tank as a refugium for the big African cichlid tank. It works for that purpose, nitrates stay low.

I am getting hair or string algae (3-10" long filaments) as well as other assorted algaes. I currently spot treat with Metrocide and that works but it is a constant chore. 

So how do I address the root cause, I cant bump cO2 up, and I fear maybe my refugium is reducing nitrates "too" much to ward off some of the algae. I cant really do cO2 as it I dont want to lower the pH because of the Africans. Besides the spot treatments, I auto-dose about 10ml of Metrocide per day into the 29g, I do this since I cant have cO2, but it quickly gets diluted into a 130g body of water. Plus the UV probably kills the glut as soon as it exits the biofilter.

Any suggestions?


----------



## herns

that's a killer set up of equipment for a 150g tank.

I have 3-4bps for my planted tank and sometimes BBA would appear. I would spot treat with Metricide 14 and lower the lighting duration from 5-6 hours. It always work.


----------



## Refael

Hi, I've read the many good results experiments using Excel in this thread and wanted to 
test it myself.
I have BBA mainly on objects like the filter outlets, heaters, rocks etc.
I tried using Excel for 2 weeks at X3 dosage. So far I can't see any change, the BBA 
is still where it was in the same numbers and in the same color. 
This is quite weird after some people here described that their algae was getting red 
and started to die off after 1-2 days, so I'm quite confused...
I'm using a brand new 500 ml bottle of SEACHEM Excel from the new series with the new stickers. 
Any ideas?


----------



## fablau

Rafael, I got rid of BBA in my tank by dosing the recommended "1st time dosage", after water change. But I lost most of my Valisnerias... Sigh...


----------



## fablau

herns said:


> that's a killer set up of equipment for a 150g tank.
> 
> I have 3-4bps for my planted tank and sometimes BBA would appear. I would spot treat with Metricide 14 and lower the lighting duration from 5-6 hours. It always work.



Herns, after how long BBA re-appear?Also, do you know your light PAR?


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## fablau

mikepetro said:


> Really old thread I know. I am hoping somebody (especially Tom) is still viewing it.
> 
> Here is my setup:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you see, I am using the Plant Tank as a refugium for the big African cichlid tank. It works for that purpose, nitrates stay low.
> 
> I am getting hair or string algae (3-10" long filaments) as well as other assorted algaes. I currently spot treat with Metrocide and that works but it is a constant chore.
> 
> So how do I address the root cause, I cant bump cO2 up, and I fear maybe my refugium is reducing nitrates "too" much to ward off some of the algae. I cant really do cO2 as it I dont want to lower the pH because of the Africans. Besides the spot treatments, I auto-dose about 10ml of Metrocide per day into the 29g, I do this since I cant have cO2, but it quickly gets diluted into a 130g body of water. Plus the UV probably kills the glut as soon as it exits the biofilter.
> 
> Any suggestions?



Maybe your nitrates and other stuff such as Po4 are too low.? The fact you get string algae makes me think that. Do you have any dosing regime? I guess no if you want to keep No3 low... But there the problems begins.

You have an amazing equipment with multi-tank architecture, but I don't know how the regular way of controlling algae via nutrients and plants can be applied in your particular configuration. I see the refugium acting like a "live plants filter, but the main tank, without plants, gets anyway light. And not having plants there, could cause your reported issues...


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## Oso Polar

Refael said:


> This is quite weird after some people here described that their algae was getting red
> and started to die off after 1-2 days, so I'm quite confused...


You'll need spot dosing for this. Turn of filters and pumps (to prevent water movement), use syringe to deliver Excel right to your BBA. Let it stay for 30 minutes and turn everything back on.


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## Refael

Oso Polar said:


> You'll need spot dosing for this. Turn of filters and pumps (to prevent water movement), use syringe to deliver Excel right to your BBA. Let it stay for 30 minutes and turn everything back on.



So why are we using X2/X3 dosage for the whole tank?
The results should appear either way even without direct injection isn't
it?

BTW no plant has been damaged from the Excel in this concentration,
neither fish or shrimps. I'm beginning to think that there are different
batches of Excel with different effectiveness...


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## Oso Polar

Refael said:


> So why are we using X2/X3 dosage for the whole tank?
> The results should appear either way even without direct injection isn't
> it?


Well, for me 2x overdose was never been able to kill existing BBA. Excel (even in 1x concentration) seems to significantly slow down it spreading, so new growth will not appear much. And, may be, it causes existing BBA to start declining slowly. But I never saw existing BBA to die off in a couple of days except while spot dosing - in this case effect was always fast and very noticeable.


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