# Soilmaster Select Substrate



## matpat

I recently set up a 75g planted tank using Soilmaster Select Charcoal colored substrate. I thought I would share some pics during the substrate set up. 

The Soilmaster was $13 for a 50lb bag. 50lbs was plenty to make a 3-4" depth in a 75g tank. Soilmaster Select is used mainly as a sports field conditioner. It is a soil conditioner similar to Turface or Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil but comes in a charcoal color and has a high iron content and CEC. The addition of mulm and peat will quickly get bacteria going in the substrate. 

The tank in the pictures was setup on the 6th of November. A friend, Rob, set up a 75g on the 4th or 5th using the same procedure. Rob added some of 3M's black "T" Grade Color Quartz Sand on top of his Soilmaster for a nice black look. 

In setting up a planted tank, a dusting of dry peat is used as the bottom layer in CO2 injected tanks. Notice you can still see the orange warning label and the glass through the peat. Up to an inch of presoaked peat can be used in non CO2 enriched tanks. 









Then, I placed some Soilmaster on top of the dry peat to keep the peat from floating and then added some mulm from my other tanks. The dark lines are from the mulm addition. 









The rest of the Soilmaster was then added and roughly graded from low in the front to high in the back. 









Next, the tank was partially filled. I took my time filling since I did not rinse the Soilmaster prior to putting it in the tank. Since the Soilmaster seems to be hydroscopic, the initial 5g of fill water was fertilized with KNO3, and KH2PO4 prior to adding it to the tank. I was my hopes that the Soilmaster would absorb some of the fertilizers mixed in the water. 









Upon filling, I thought the water would be cloudier than this but it wasn't too bad. Those of you who have used Flourite know how bad that stuff is even after rinsing many, many times. There is a small Anubias barteri v. nana and Hygrophila difformis (Water Wisteria) in there for perspective on the water cloudiness. 


Since it wasn't very cloudy, I filled the tank and added the plants. These are mostly fast growers with the exception of the Java Ferns and will be removed within the next month or two. They will simply grow to fast and require weekly and sometimes twice weekly trimming. 










Here are some pics of the tank on the 13th. It initially had 120w of T-12 lights over it. Those were removed and three Shoplights were added on the 13th to increase the light level over the tank. It now has six T-8 tubes over it for a total of 192 watts of light. These are not overdriven yet and depending on plant growth, they may not be overdriven. 









Sorry for the crappy pics, but it is an initial set up and the plants and 'scape will change soon enough. I don't know how long I can stand to trim all of these fast growers  

Hopefully this will be of help if anyone decides to set up a planted tank in the near future and wants to give the Soilmaster a try.


----------



## AaronT

Here's where to buy it: http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083365


----------



## matpat

Thanks Aaron, I should have added the link. 

If you go to Lesco's home page and input your zip code, you will get the closest locations of their stores. You can then order it from the link Aaron provided. Lesco does not charge shipping from one store to another store in order to get the Soilmaster in stock but there may be a bit of a wait time. In our case (SWOAPE) it was about a week. A quick trip to the local Lesco and you will have 50lbs of substrate on hand for relatively cheap


----------



## Rex Grigg

If 50 lbs gives 3-4" in a 75 gallon tank this stuff must be pretty light.

And of course the "closest" store to me is about 500 miles away.


----------



## matpat

I thought it was going to be pretty light myself. Seems about the same as Eco Complete and much better than the Schultz Aquatic Palnt Soil and Flourite mix I have in my 55g. I think the smaller grain size may help a bit.


----------



## Rex Grigg

Has to be lighter than Eco-Complete as you need 144 lbs to get 3" in a 75 gallon according to the Substrate Calculator.


----------



## matpat

Maybe it is lighter, but it holds plants just as well. The smaller grain size probably helps somewhat also. It is smaller than most of the Eco particles but larger then the "T" grade of 3M's Color Quartz. I'll see if I can get some pics up for comparison.


----------



## milalic

Will this be a good substrate if I only wanted to grow plants?


----------



## Wasserpest

I love these sequences, empty tank --> fully grown. Always amazing change. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Jerm

Um... no fish? Fish safe water? :fish: :fish: :fish: hehe fishes


----------



## Oqsy

there's a fish in the last pic... top left. looks like a gourami perhaps, maybe a cichlid. 



Oqsy


----------



## AaronT

Jerm said:


> Um... no fish? Fish safe water? :fish: :fish: :fish: hehe fishes


Yes it is safe for fish. This is essentially the same product as Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil.


----------



## matpat

Actually there's a dozen dwarf gouramis in there, 6 males and 6 females and also 6 Otos. If there are any problems with the Gourami's, I have another 75g I can move half of the males into. 

One of the males has already built a bubble nest and is a bit aggressive towards the others when they get near his territory but that is it so far. 

Here's a few pics of the male gouramis

















Not the best quality pics, but I only have a camcorder to take pics. I've tried to get a few pics of the grains size difference in the Eco Complete, Soilmaster, and 3M sand but they don't come out too well. I will see about borrowing a cam and getting a better pic over the weekend.


----------



## Jerm

Are they dwarf blues?
OOO nearest store near me is in Malta NY... 139.9 miles away, joy.
So how is the Schultz Aquatic Plant Soil for aquariums? Nice cheap alternative?


----------



## matpat

They are all dwarfs.

The Shultz is good for planted tanks. It is the same stuff as Turface (Both manufactured by Profile) or Soilmaster. However, Soilmaster and Turface come in a gray color versus the reddish-orange of Shultz. Turface gray was very difficult for us to find here in Ohio. We needed to order it by the pallet (2,000lbs) in order to get anyone to ship it to us. Using Lesco, you should be able to order it by the 50lb bag. 

If you have a local Plant/Fish club nearby you can try making a group order with them for the Soilmaster. We saved $3 a bag by ordering 1,000lbs of Soilmaster. 

I had two 55g tanks with a mix of Shultz, Flourite, and Florbase and they did really well. Each tank had four 2x ODNO 6700K lamps over it. I only have one of those 55g tanks now.


----------



## Buck

Great thread and photos, thanks for sharing this experiment. Please keep us posted on the tank as it matures. Im with Rex on this one, one 50lb bag does seem a bit shy for a 75G and in the photos it dont look like 3". 

The price is definately better though and I like the color as well. roud:


----------



## jamesbrokman10

that stuff really must be light if i remember a 75 gallon tank has a 48"x18" footprint, my 300 gallon has a 96"x24" footprint and used about 300 pounds of flourite, damb that was expensive!!!!


----------



## stcyrwm

Matt,

Why do you use more peat in a non CO2 tank? The other thing I've never figured out is how do you collect the mulm to move it?

Thanks, Bill


----------



## matpat

Buck said:


> Great thread and photos, thanks for sharing this experiment. Please keep us posted on the tank as it matures. Im with Rex on this one, one 50lb bag does seem a bit shy for a 75G and in the photos it dont look like 3".
> 
> The price is definately better though and I like the color as well. roud:


Thanks Buck. I finally got some pics of the different sizes of the substrate (Eco, 3M's Color Quartz, and the Soilmaster Select) and will add them once I get the text added to the pics. I will update the tank once I get some of the "break-in" plants out of the tank. I'm leaning towards a Southeastern Asia biotope type tank but don't know if I can handle the fast growth of the Hygro species. The Rotalas will be fine as will the Crypts!

It doesn't look like 3" since the substrate is sloped from front to back. I have about 2.5" in the front and about 3.5" in the back. Given enough time, it won't be sloped any more  

Still no major concerns with holding plants down. It is light but no worse than Eco in my opinion. However, the Eco I have in may tanks is 2+ years old now. I have noticed that the Eco is a lot smaller now than it was 2 years ago also  I can still uproot pearling Water Sprite and plant it back into the substrate without it floating up. The true test of the Soilmaster will be to see if I can get a topped stem of H. balsamica to stay in the substrate once it gets pearling.

Bill,

Here is a good link on using peat as the bottom layer of a substrate: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=1543&highlight=peat+moss
There are probably more on this site as well but I haven't searched here.

Collecting the mulm is easy. Just do a typical water change, but use a bucket instead of a python. Let everything settle and then decant the water from the layer of mulm that settles. I usually clean some filters while I'm at it. You can squeeze the filter sponges into the bucket as well as rinse the media in the bucket. You can pour off almost all of the water and leave only mulm in the bottom of the bucket. The water that does stay in the bucket helps move the mulm into the tank. Between a water change and filter cleanings, I get more than enough mulm :icon_bigg


----------



## orthikon

I was wondering if you have taken pics already. I am starting up an aquarium with Soilmaster Red and 3m colorquartz in black and I was curious how the pics look.

Now I'm getting red since they don't have charcoal in stock and I called the Lesco stores in my area and they do charge shipping from one store to another. I do have to wait for a pallet to get in so that I would not have to pay for shipping which is $30/bag


----------



## jhoetzl

orthikon said:


> Now I'm getting red since they don't have charcoal in stock and I called the Lesco stores in my area and they do charge shipping from one store to another. I do have to wait for a pallet to get in so that I would not have to pay for shipping which is $30/bag


Hmmm, always makes me wonder how chain stores work. My charcoal bag was shipped from a store in MA to the store near me in NJ...no additional charge, and the bag had the UPS labels still attached.
I placed the order online, and picked store pickup.


----------



## matpat

orthikon said:


> I was wondering if you have taken pics already. I am starting up an aquarium with Soilmaster Red and 3m colorquartz in black and I was curious how the pics look.


I have pics somewhere...I will try an dig them up later tonight. None of the red though. Are you looking for Soilmaster Select or the plain Soilmaster?



orthikon said:


> Now I'm getting red since they don't have charcoal in stock and I called the Lesco stores in my area and they do charge shipping from one store to another. I do have to wait for a pallet to get in so that I would not have to pay for shipping which is $30/bag


As far as the shipping, a few folks on some other forums have had issues with this also. It may have had something to do with store pickup versus home delivery. The local store here in the Dayton area would not order it for us. One of the Lescos in Cincinnati was more than willing to order us and even deliverd it when it took longer to arrive than expected. I think some of the stores are a bit more willing to help than others. Also try talking to a manager if you can. They are usually a bit more willing to help


----------



## jibbittyflibbitt

matpat,

i am going to be moving my 75 gallon in about a month.. i am probably going to chuck the current substrate in favor of the charcol soilmaster select.. i would like to follow a similar process.

do you still think 1 50lb bag was enough for you?

where can i get some dry peat? any particular style/type or brand name i should look for?

thanks
jibbittyflibbitt


----------



## matpat

jibbittyflibbitt said:


> matpat,
> 
> i am going to be moving my 75 gallon in about a month.. i am probably going to chuck the current substrate in favor of the charcol soilmaster select.. i would like to follow a similar process.
> 
> do you still think 1 50lb bag was enough for you?
> 
> where can i get some dry peat? any particular style/type or brand name i should look for?
> 
> thanks
> jibbittyflibbitt


I do still think 50lbs was plenty for a 75g tank. The tank is sloped from about 2 1/2" in the front to about 3 1/2" in the back so I guesstimate a 3" depth overall. You may want more if you plan on using swords or crypts since they typically have a large root system. So far the C. retrospiralis, C. wendtii, and C. lutea are doing fine in the 3" depth I have.

I got my dry peat at WalMart. Any Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss will work as long as it doesn't have additives. Definately stay away from the miracle grow brand as it comes pre-fertilized. I bought a 8 dry quart bag of Schultz Canadium Sphagnum Peat Moss over a year ago. It goes a long way! 

Since then I have set up two 75g tanks, two 55g tanks, and one 50g tank (48Lx18D footprint) with a dusting of peat as in the photo. I have also set up two 10g tanks with an inch of pre-soaked peat and many emmersed pots. I have also given some away to some SWOAPE members and I still have about half of the bag left.

I like the Soilmaster Select enough that I am contemplating removing the Eco Complete from one of my 75g tanks and replacing it with Soilmaster. It is a bit "lighter" than the "newer" Eco but I have the old Eco (much larger grain size) in that tank. I really think the smaller grain size of the Soilmaster Select helps hold down the plants better.


----------



## orthikon

matpat,

I just ordered the soilmaster select in charcoal from the website without shipping charges. I do, however, have to pick it up from the store.


----------



## matpat

orthikon said:


> matpat,
> 
> I just ordered the soilmaster select in charcoal from the website without shipping charges. I do, however, have to pick it up from the store.


Good news! Did you just have to wait for them to get it in or did picking it up from the store make the difference in the shipping charges?


----------



## syzygy

matpat said:


> The local store here in the Dayton area would not order it for us. One of the Lescos in Cincinnati was more than willing to order us and even deliverd it when it took longer to arrive than expected.


matt

just curious, from which store in cincy did you order?


----------



## matpat

Here is the info on the Cinci store from where we ordered:

Lesco
9987 Joseph James Dr
Cincinnati, OH 45246-1341
Mark Witsken
513-874-2900
[email protected]


----------



## orthikon

mat: they actually canceled my order since it's not available on the west coast. they do however have the plain old soilmaster. 

soilmaster: http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=081083

soilmaster select: http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083253

One thing I have found is that they do have the same label (on the right hand side it's a link to a pdf) on the website. I am supposing that the select is a "better" grade of some sort but I am also assuming that the composition is the same. The price for the regular soilmaster is ($10.92) and the select is ( $16.03)

I think I am just going to jump without looking and buy a bag of this to inform you guys of the result.

What would I be looking for to determine if this is okay for a planted tank?


----------



## Hoppy

Some one is pulling your leg. Several people have gotten Soilmaster Pro Select Charcoal in Sacramento - definitely on the West Coast. You need to go to the Lesco website and order it there for pick up at your local distributer.


----------



## orthikon

Hmm it seems like that would be the case. I did order from the website and chose the pick-up option so that I would not be charged shipping charges but they canceled my order. 

They said it would be impractical (and costly) for them to ship just one bag of it.


----------



## Color Me Blue

I tried emailing the local manager here in San Diego to see if I could get some in charcoal color since all they had was the red. He first told me there would be a shipping charge. I told him that it was not feasible to pay such a shipping charge for just 2 bags. Then he said he could try and get it with his next replenishment shipment so that I wouldn't have to pay the shipping charge. Just when I thought I was going to be able to try Soilmaster Select in charcoal....happy.....I received notice that it's on backorder and he doesn't know when he can get any in.....sad. All in all, he was trying to be very helpful, but of course I couldn't help but feel let-down. 

What I don't understand is that the Rancho Cordova facility has it (as stated on their website). So I guess you'll have to be in that area to get some.

On a side note: I was going to go ahead and try the "red" since another member here tried it and it looks pretty darn good, IMO. I planned on topping it off with 3M color quartz black "T" grade anyways. But then I decided to try Turface instead since the place where I got purchased it from was much closer. Maybe once Lesco realizes that many of us are interested in their "charcoal", they'll make it more readily available.


----------



## orthikon

Color Me Blue,

Is the red your referring to the soilmaster select red or soilmaster soil conditioner red? 

I am in the Los Angeles area. I called the San Diego branch and he said the same thing that I had to pay for shipping. Also the manager at the Anaheim branch told me that there were a number of people that were interested in the charcoal color and he mentioned that someone was planning to order a pallet (40 bags) of it. Hmmm perhaps we can organize something like that?

Where did you get the Turface?

From the label of Soilmaster soil conditioner:
Soilmaster soil conditioner is the only product in the industry with the deep red color professionals demand. The red color is even enhanced when the field is wet down before a game. It has an opmtimized mix of particle sizes for use on both infields and turf. The larger granules help fracture compacted soil, opening narrow channels and absorb moisture. Working together, they set up a capillary system which can absorb water effectively and prevent puddling and rain-outs. Soilmaster granules are very durable and will remain permanently rigid in the soil, releasing stored water as needed to help prevent top-dusting in arid condtions.

I just got the soilmaster red and it doesn't seem to be as light as people describes it. It just sinks on its own if I drop it. When I soaked it in water it made a hissing noise. It seemed like it was absorbing water/releasing air that was trapped in the particles. I cannot break it with my fingernails. Particle is size varying, at least 3 mm. It seems to be larger than Soilmaster Select judging from this post( http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/26465-what-avg-mm-size-soilmaster.html). Unfortunately my digital camera is broken so I cannot post any pictures, however from what I have seen of Fluorite Red, they look very similar.

For those who have used Soilmaster select: are these properties that I am describing similar to the select?

edit: It *could* be that the only difference between Soilmaster Select and Soilmaster Soil coditioner is the grain size just like profile products (see post below, more discussion of that topic follows below that post).

from: http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/profile.html#5


> Profile
> by Kean Huat Yeap <keanhuat/yahoo.com>
> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2000
> 
> Hi! I just want to let you guys know that Profile
> Aquatic Plant Soil and Profile Clay Soil Conditioner
> are the same product but in different package and
> price. I posted this in APD several months ago when I
> found this out.
> 
> I was looking desperately for Profile Aquatic Plant
> Soil in my area when I started my 40 g planted tank 7
> months ago. I only found Profile Clay Soil Conditioner
> in my local Frank's Nursery. But I wasn't sure if
> that's the stuff that everybody is using. I searched
> everywhere for the answer for more than 3 weeks. Then
> I decided to call up AIMCOR, Profile's manufacturer. I
> wanted to order the aquatic plant soil straight from
> them. To my surprise, the lady in charge told me that
> both of them are the same product. So, I bought 40 lbs
> of Profile Clay Soil Conditioner for 11 bucks(if I
> still remember correctly).
> 
> I use 100% of Profile in my tank and I'm very happy
> with it. My plants grow very well in Profile. I have
> photos to prove it if you guys are interested. I don't
> think Profile has iron like in Fluorite but I can say
> that Profile is good for growing lots of plants.
> Moreover, Profile is much cheaper compared to
> Fluorite.
> 
> So, no more guessing or debating, they are the same
> product
> 
> 
> Kean Huat
> Oak Park, IL
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
> http://im.yahoo.com


----------



## orthikon

I just sent an email to Lesco's technical support asking the differences. Will post their reply.


----------



## turbomkt

SoCal folks...We're trying to get a group together. Some info here. I've also got a private forum I've set up that I'll send you the URL for if you PM me.

I've already been working with the San Diego Lesco on this. I've got one of their bags of (OK, their only bag of) SS Red. I'm trying to coordinate a bulk purchase prior to our first meeting and then I'd handle delivery to the meeting (Pick up trucks are good for something ).

--Mike


----------



## ginnie5

ok just got off the phone with the manager here. They don't have the charcoal in stock...warehouse doesn't even have it but he was more than happy to order it for me. Total is going to be $17.23. I check back in a week to see if it actually comes in.


----------



## matpat

Soilmaster comes in four colors, Red, Charcoal, Green, and Brown. When I talked to the Soilmaster Marketing Rep back in October or November they were phasing out the brown or green due to lack of interest. I would think brown and green would be the two that places would be most interested in since those two colors would match grass and dirt the best...the Soilmaster Charcoal, Brown, and Green are actually dyed. As I understand it they are "fired" after dying to make sure they retain their color. 

Soilmaster and Soilmaster Select are the same product. The "Select" is much finer grained and similar in particle size and is about a third the size of regular Soilmaster. If anyone wants to see the size difference, go to the Pro's Choice website and contact them by either phone or e-mail. They will send you a pamphlet that includes couple small packages (less than 1 ounce) of Soilmaster, Soilmaster Select, Rapid Dry, and Pro Mound Clay free of charge. I no longer have these or I would post pictures. 

Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil (SAPS) and Turface (Both products of the Profile Company) are the same thing and are made from Illite and Fuller's Earth. Soilmaster (Produced by the Oil-Dri corporation) is very similar to these two but is made from montmorillonite clay. Both Soilmaster and Turface/SAPS are called "calcined clays".

Below are a few definitions on the above products from this site: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm There are nice comparisons of independent testing done on various substrates, including Flourite. Notice both the low the iron content and CEC of Flourite in comparison with either the Turface or Profile Products! 

Montmorillonite - one of the major components of bentonite and fuller's earth. Hydrous aluminum silicate with a considerable capacity for exchanging part of the aluminum for Mg and bases. High natural adsorptive power. Good CEC.

Illite - group of clay minerals having the structure KAl3Si3O10(OH)2. Colorless to pale brown potassium mica. High CEC.

Fuller's earth - porous, colloidal aluminum silicate clay mineral that lacks plasticity and is often used as an adsorbent, folter medium, and a carrier for catalysts. High adsorptive power. Grey to yellow color. Good CEC.

Calcined clays - clays that are heated to a high temperature to cause an extreme hardening and oxidation. They can then be fracted into smaller pieces to be used as a primary substrate base. They become very porous on firing, and provide many nutrient binding sites. Chemically and physically stable. Good CEC.

All of the above seem safe for planted tanks. I have been using SAPS in my tanks for over a year now along with Flourite. I've only used Soilmaster Select for 4-5 months now and both seem to be as safe as other planted tank substrates. I haven't noticed any changes in water parameters of my Soilmaster tank as of yet. GH and KH have remained as stable as my water supply


----------



## orthikon

Thanks for the much needed info matpat.


----------



## Color Me Blue

Orthikon: I was talking about the soilmaster select red. Member "Spinnerbayt" is using it and has posted pics. Here is his thread: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...strate-question.html?highlight=soilmaster+red

I got my Turface from a place called "Butler's Mill" ( http://www.butlersmill.com/ ). I had called around to all the garden stores and such in my area looking for Shultz Aquatic soil or other clay soil sediments, but nobody was carrying it. Then I was told to call Butler's Mill since they would probably carry the stuff I was looking for. A 50lbs bag of Turface cost me $12.60. So I figured that was the best choice for me since I couldn't get my hands on SS charcoal and Butler's Mill is wayyyyyy closer. 

Turbomkt: pm coming.... I would definitely like to get in on this SS charcoal thing.

As another member in this forum has stated, it just depends where in this country you are to how easily you can get this SS charcoal. It just seems us SoCal members are having a tough go at getting it.


----------



## ShortFin

Color Me Blue said:


> What I don't understand is that the Rancho Cordova facility has it (as stated on their website). So I guess you'll have to be in that area to get some.


The Rancho Cordova does not carry it eventhough the website say it does. This was confirmed after talking to customer service and she said she doesn't know why they listed as in stock when it's not.


----------



## milalic

This is the only soilmaster my lesco has:

http://www.lesco.com/?PageCode=PROD_DETAIL&ItemNumber=080310

Will it work for a planted tank. They will not order the other one unless it is a palette of it. I doubt I can find that many persons interested.

THanks,
Pedro


----------



## spinnerbayt

I'm not sure if that one will work or not. Here is what I have.
http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083253
I also wanted the charcoal but my lesco didn't have it and he checked the closest warehouse and they didn't even have it so I wasn't going to wait for who knows how long to get it so I went with the red. Now that I have the red I am glad I used it. I have had nothing but good reactions form family and friends when they come over and see the tank. The only thing I can say about it is that when its first put in it holds alot of air pockets, but now that is been in there a while most are gone. As long as I can get the Soilmaster I won't be using anything else. Maybe tomorrow I will take some more pic's and give you guys a update.


----------



## orthikon

milalic:

The only difference between the Soilmaster Soil Conditioner and the Soilmaster Select is the grain size. See matpat's post.

I have received reply from Lesco and they say the same thing as matpat suggested. I am not on my home computer right now so i cannot post it.


----------



## PHalas

matpat said:


> In setting up a planted tank, a dusting of dry peat is used as the bottom layer in CO2 injected tanks. Notice you can still see the orange warning label and the glass through the peat. Up to an inch of presoaked peat can be used in non CO2 enriched tanks.


I see a dusting of dry peat is your preference under the soilmaster.
Have looked at various threads that have suggested an alternative homebrew powersand type mix, consisting of among other things, pumice, laterite, Peat or substitutes of leonardite or lignite plus Zeolite & Terralite.

Have tried to list most of the ingredients that featured prominently in these threads, although never did find any one that actually suggested a proven recipe.

Have access to the Soilmaster pro charcoal locally & this is the substrate of choice for my new tank but was considering the variables for what to put in the bottom of the tank.

Anyone out there tried any such concoctions with any degree of success, or would it just not be warranted under soilmaster Pro. Maybe even not cost effective??

Thanks ~Pete


----------



## matpat

I've never bothered trying to find leonardite, lignite, pumice, or any of the other items you listed since peat is so easy to find and so cheap! I don't think there would be much advantage one over the other especially once you figure in the time it would take to locate them and possibly have them shipped. I have used Laterite and probably never will again. Way too messy for my tastes. Most Wal Marts have Schultz Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss on their shelves this time of year and it is very easy to find a Wal Mart


----------



## PHalas

matpat said:


> I've never bothered trying to find leonardite, lignite, pumice, or any of the other items you listed since peat is so easy to find and so cheap! I don't think there would be much advantage one over the other especially once you figure in the time it would take to locate them and possibly have them shipped. I have used Laterite and probably never will again. Way too messy for my tastes. Most Wal Marts have Schultz Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss on their shelves this time of year and it is very easy to find a Wal Mart


Not much of an expert when it comes to minerals, I guess there is not much point looking for the peat replacement & I've also read various places that Laterite is hard to deal with. Now the other stuff, Pumice, Zeolite & Terralite were mentioned as being a significant plus along with the Peat.
Have not researched availability of these three items...Maybe Walmart TOO


----------



## g8wayg8r

I tore down my aquarium two nights ago and started over from scratch after cleaning all of the hardware and salvaging as many plants as possible to mix in with my new ones. It was a long night for me and my fish. My wife bought a 50-pound bag of Soilmaster Red Soil Conditioner from a local shop for $17 that morning. The grit size is somewhat smaller that of Seachem Flourite and it was much easier to rinse and use: stirred in several inches of water cover for about 10 or 15 seconds; drained the water and poured it in the tank; filled with water slowly and almost all of the initial cloudiness was gone after 48 hours. The real plus to me, however, was the ease of planting relative to flourite, which is an exercise in frustration. It's an active substrate that plants easier than in gravel. Compared to fine natural gravel, sand and flourite, it's the best I've ever used to set up a tank. For now, I highly recommend it.


----------



## spinnerbayt

Glad to see you are happy with your SM. After having it I wouldn't even think about going back to the expensive substrates. You know your doing something right when your inlaws come over and ask if you can get their tank to look that. I guess that I will be setting up the inlaws tank with SM. Keep us posted on your progress.


----------



## turbomkt

I rinsed it about a handful of times and didn't have any cloudiness when I set my tank up. But significantly less than I had to rinse my flourite (which still clouded up in the tank).


----------



## Ken

I just got an email from the Phoenix store manager. He wants me to pay $27 in shipping costs for a $16 bag of SM Charcoal. :eek5: I could almost do 100% flourite at that price for my 29G.


----------



## Lil boy blue

Is there any iron in the soilmaster???? If there isnt would it be possible to put seachem florish tabs in it????


----------



## matpat

I would say it has iron in it since it is very similar to Turface or Turface Black (Parent company of Turface is Profile Products which is the maker of Shultz Aquatic Plant Soil also) according to the below link: http://home.infinet.net/teban/jamie.htm

What may be of more importance than the iron and mineral content is the CEC and also the hydroscopic properties of Profile Products and Soilmaster. They may be able to absorb nutrients like nitrates, phosphates, potassium, etc when they first take up water. However, I have no idea if these nutrients are are available to the plants once/if they are absorbed, but I would guess they are


----------



## matpat

Ken said:


> I just got an email from the Phoenix store manager. He wants me to pay $27 in shipping costs for a $16 bag of SM Charcoal. :eek5: I could almost do 100% flourite at that price for my 29G.


The stores here in the Dayton area were not willing to work with us on getting the Soilmaster either but a call to a Cincinnati store (45 minutes south of Dayton) got us a manager who was willing to help us out. We did order 1000lbs so that may have helped us too. 

Since you are in Phoenix, you may want to consider joining Arizona Aquatic Plant Enthusiats. They meet in Phoenix (according to the info on Aquatic Plant Central) and may have enough members interested in getting a group order together. 

Here is their link: http://www.aape.naturalaquariums.com/ I believe Chiahead and Roy Deki frequent here also


----------



## Youjin

Had just receive my order from the store here in San Jose, CA. Got a bag (soilmaster - charcoal). I did the internet order and then called the local shop to enquire about delivery date and it was available within a week. I drove over and pick it up (5 mins). No shipping charges.


----------



## a deadly fart

Hey there Andrew good to hear that we are able to get this without shipping charges. Any chance I could get the name and number for the store you ordered from? Last I heard the boys up over in Sac wanted to order some but their stores wanted to charge extra for shipping. Have you used turface to compare it with? I'm using turface right now and my kuhli loaches are making it a whole lot harder to keep things planted.


----------



## Youjin

I ordered thru' the lesco website and chose San Jose as the collection location. They actually brought in one bag just for me and told me that they can get more if i need more.

LESCO Direct / processed by San Jose CA Service Center at (408) 428-9575 
2299 Ringwood Ave San Jose, CA 95131-1732.

Have not use Turface before...but Soilmaster is working great for me.


----------



## a deadly fart

Cool. Thanks man.


----------



## tom855

I just had a 50# bag of charcoal colored Soilmaster transfered between the local Lesco and a warehouse somewhere and it cost a whoppin' $13.62 plus tax. No minimum order, no shipping fee, and they got it in stock about 4 days after I called. Now the fun starts - time to change substrates :icon_eek:


----------



## Jubs

I paid $12 even for my bag. The guy at the desk asked me if I was using it for an aquarium lol. Apparently he has been getting alot of calls about it lately and the bag I bought was special ordered for someone and they never picked it up so I got lucky to find the charcoal in stock at my local Lesco. They had a few more bags of the red in stock as well might have to go get some if I ever setup my 90g. I am not sure if I am going to be planting it or not yet.


----------



## bastalker

I have playsand at the moment, but am going to change to SM in a month or so. Bein a landscaper, Lesco sees me all the time and pretty much will order whatever I want. They have the red in stock right now, an I really like the color of it in spinnerbaytes tank. I will grab a bag of it. It will be just enough for my 55. 

Funny thing, Ken at lesco told me a guy came in last week an ordered a bag of it. He asked him what it was for. He told him for an aquarium. Ken said "really, whats it for?" He said its for an aquarium. Then I walked in an asked for a bag. He said "whats it for?" I said an aquarium. He about fell over.

The only problem with the substrate change is I am gonna have to put up with my huge crypts poutin for about a month


----------



## balasharkfreak

*Lesco*

Would I have a better chance of finding Soilmaster Select at a pet store or a home supply store? There are no Lesco's in the Pacific NW and I called Petco/Petsmart but no SS. Is Lesco a Home Depot/Lowe's type store?

Would mixture of peat moss & Eco-Complete be a good substrate for a 12g 'nano' tank with 48w of light for a planted tank? Would CO2 be necessary or would excel injections (which I dont know much about) get me by sufficiently?


----------



## Rex Grigg

I highly doubt you will find Soilmaster at a pet store or home supply store. It's marketed to people who maintain baseball diamonds and golf courses primarily.

Lesco is NOT a Home Depot or Lowe's type store. Did you even check out their web site?

Why would you think that Petco or PetSmart would carry something that is for maintaining grass? Just because it's the hot new item in aquariums?

Beyond that read my Guide.


----------



## matpat

balasharkfreak said:


> Would I have a better chance of finding Soilmaster Select at a pet store or a home supply store? There are no Lesco's in the Pacific NW and I called Petco/Petsmart but no SS. Is Lesco a Home Depot/Lowe's type store?


Lesco is the only distributor of Soilsmaster that I know of. I'm sure there are other places, but Lowe's and Home Depot do not carry it, at least in my area. :icon_smil 

You may want to try looking for Turface Pro League (Pro League has a uniform grains size to it like SS) on the west coast. It is pretty much the same thing as Soilmaster and also comes in a gray color, or at least it used to. We had a horrible time finding Turface here in the midwest and Soilmaster wasn't much easier to find. It took a lot of phone calls and a few weeks of waiting but it was worth it for the price.


----------



## balasharkfreak

Thanks for the help, Matt!


----------



## bastalker

I inquired about the grain size difference of select to the regular soilmaster, and was told that the packets dont really show the difference very well. I was told that the grain size is about the same between the two, and the select has a few more nutrients in it is all. This is a statement from one individual though.


----------



## matpat

bastalker said:


> I inquired about the grain size difference of select to the regular soilmaster, and was told that the packets dont really show the difference very well. I was told that the grain size is about the same between the two, and the select has a few more nutrients in it is all. This is a statement from one individual though.


The Select is smaller and very consistent in grain size versus the regular Soilmaster. You can send an e-mail to Pros Choice and they will send you a few sample packets so you can see the difference for yourself. The ones I received were definately different! I just wish I would have taken some pics of them so I could post them for everyone to see! 

As far as one containing more nutrients than the other, they are both the same thing, montmorillonite clay, the select is just smaller and more uniform in size.


----------



## DiabloCanine

If you call Pro's Choice, they will give you the nearest distributor that has Soilmaster, not carries it but has it. Lesco sometimes will give you the "gotta order a pallet" story. Find the nearest distributor, make a run, get plenty for your buddies. Me and a buddy just made a run, picked up 8 bags, they even wanted us to take the broken bags away for them, for need of a pickup. They were pretty amazed when we told them what we were going to do with it, was a supply store for sporting goods and athletic field maintenance. Make a couple of phone calls and get amazed!

From their website http://www.oildri.com/agri/turbase.htm

"For more information about our sports field products, please fill out the form below or contact us at:

Pro's Choice 
410 N. Michigan Avenue, Suite 400
Chicago, Illinois 60611

Toll Free: 888-424-7672
Phone: 312/321-1515
Fax: 312/321-9525
Email: [email protected]"

I was told while we were checking out the different types, Soilmaster comes from the Mississippi and select is fired for a longer period of time.

Soilmaster is very light, about 1/3 the weight of the Onyx sand I mix it with....DC


----------



## bastalker

matpat said:


> The Select is smaller and very consistent in grain size versus the regular Soilmaster. You can send an e-mail to Pros Choice and they will send you a few sample packets so you can see the difference for yourself. The ones I received were definately different! I just wish I would have taken some pics of them so I could post them for everyone to see!
> 
> As far as one containing more nutrients than the other, they are both the same thing, montmorillonite clay, the select is just smaller and more uniform in size.



Had Lesco order a bag of select red. I am in no hurry, but when it does come in, man... I am gonna have my work cut out for me.


----------



## tijat

Wow, my luck must be changing...the local Lesco distributor is 3 miles away.


----------



## whitepine

I found a local distributor in the Seattle area... he wanted $15 per bag. He also wanted me to order a pallet (50 bags). He did say I might be able to buy a bag or two, but it would cost more and be on an availablity basis. His name is Mike 253.381.1909. Not the happiest guy to talk to... so call if you are only really serious about getting the soil.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## noncentric

whitepine said:


> I found a local distributor in the Seattle area... he wanted $15 per bag. He also wanted me to order a pallet (50 bags). He did say I might be able to buy a bag or two, but it would cost more and be on an availablity basis. His name is Mike 253.381.1909. Not the happiest guy to talk to... so call if you are only really serious about getting the soil.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


Hi whitepine, I'm interested in getting a bag (charcoal color)...but I guess we'd need another 40+ people interested to make Mike happy. :icon_wink 
Did he say how much more it would be if ordering just a couple bags?

Thanks.


----------



## guaiac_boy

There is a Lesco distributor in Worcester, MA that has 50 bags or so of the charcoal soilmaster select. He's been trying to get rid of it for over a year. I recently picked up 500 lbs for about $16 a bag. They won't ship it, but it's within driving distance of quite a few people.

Fish Frenzy, an LFS in the Springfield, MA area also has a few bags in stock.


----------



## Galactic Doug

I was wondering if there are any online sources for comparisons of many if not all of the different brands of soil Alternatives? I have a couple tanks I would like to devote soon but LFS's charge atrocious prices for things like soils. So I will need links also. Has anyone here ever produced a good web page with comparisons?
Thanks
Doug


----------



## a deadly fart

Got this from another post
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/plant_substrates_chart.php

Soilmaster / turface are great deals .. aqual shults just doesnt look as pleasant... I'm starting to lean more and more towards ada soil after reading some folks testimony.. but if I was looking to save money I'd rather go el natural with a layer of soil and something else on top.


----------



## whitepine

noncentric said:


> Hi whitepine, I'm interested in getting a bag (charcoal color)...but I guess we'd need another 40+ people interested to make Mike happy. :icon_wink
> Did he say how much more it would be if ordering just a couple bags?
> 
> Thanks.


He (mike) thought it would be a few extra dollars per bag... so like $18+ per bag. Call him and see if he has any available... you will probalbly have to drive to pick them up though.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## BlueRam

I am looking for a few bags if we do a group buy...



whitepine said:


> I found a local distributor in the Seattle area... he wanted $15 per bag. He also wanted me to order a pallet (50 bags). He did say I might be able to buy a bag or two, but it would cost more and be on an availablity basis. His name is Mike 253.381.1909. Not the happiest guy to talk to... so call if you are only really serious about getting the soil.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## tijat

If you order online make sure to specify the color you want in the "comments or special instructions" section of the ordering page. I ordered two bags of the charcoal and got two bags of the [email protected]#$ They probably figure the color doesn't matter for most purposes. 

Now a dumb question; are you supposed to wash laterite, or is all of that endless red murk me washing off the good stuff?

Thanks!


----------



## turbomkt

tijat said:


> are you supposed to wash laterite, or is all of that endless red murk me washing off the good stuff?
> 
> Thanks!


Laterite? Soilmaster is not Laterite. And, if you are talking about soilmaster, you SHOULD be washing the dust off.


----------



## tijat

I had a 20lbs of laterite, so I put that in first. I don't have easy access to an outside faucet, so I figured I'd put in the laterite and then the soilmaster, fill a few times to wash out the dust, and that would be it. However, every time I fill my 75g tank it seems to be just as filthy.


----------



## Hoppy

Laterite will cloud up the water unless you are careful to keep it below the soilmaster, especially while you are filling the tank with water. Soilmaster is very dirty as you get it, so it is best to wash it a bucket at a time until the water is reasonably clear. I don't know that the soilmaster dust and grime will do any harm if you don't wash it, but it will cloud up the tank until it all settles down. And, no, you don't need to wash laterite.


----------



## turbomkt

According to OilDri, Soilmaster is Montmorillonite that is heat hardened. Even unheated, it's fine. In japan they add it to tanks to help with CRS coloration.


----------



## druxboyz

i tried searching for the answer in the previous pages. Does this soilmaster contain the necessary nutrients for plants like eco-complete / fluorite does?

i tried to go the cheap route and get kitty liter, seems that the roots need more nutrients than what the kitty liter has to offer. I dotn want to make root tabs, so i just want a substrate that will have all the necessary nutrients for the root plants. I do add pmdd to the water though. 

is soilmaster for me? or should i just look for eco-complete?


----------



## turbomkt

druxboyz said:


> i tried searching for the answer in the previous pages. Does this soilmaster contain the necessary nutrients for plants like eco-complete / fluorite does?
> 
> i tried to go the cheap route and get kitty liter, seems that the roots need more nutrients than what the kitty liter has to offer. I dotn want to make root tabs, so i just want a substrate that will have all the necessary nutrients for the root plants. I do add pmdd to the water though.
> 
> is soilmaster for me? or should i just look for eco-complete?


Actually, Eco Complete doesn't really have much in the way of nutrients. And Flourite has nothing more than _some_ iron.

As for Soilmaster...it is basically baked clay that is inert. No nutrients at all. It's advantage is low cost, a couple of color options, and low cost. 

For substrates that have any nutrients in them, I believe most anything is used up within a month or so. That makes the substrate a purely aesthetic issue. You'll have to at least dose water column ferts.


----------



## Bombay

*Premium Floor Absorbent vs Aquatic Plant Soil*

I was reading this post earlier today when I saw that the OilDri corp makes APS and Soilmaster Select. I recalled a oil absorbent out in the garage that I purchased as a terrestrial permanent soil amendment.

I cracked open the bad of each and took two pictures. The first shows the Premium Floor Absorbent with a quarter. PFA is a medium gray in color.










The second photo shows the Aquatic Soil on the left and the Floor Absorbent on the right. APS is kinda tan in color...and appears to have a smaller grain...or smaller grains in general. The PFA is gray with relatively larger grains...although it may have smaller ones too...as I didn't dig too far into the bag. Anyway, thought I'd share.


----------



## dgness

*Soilmaster dust*

I purchased Soilmaster a few months ago and thoroughly, and I do mean thoroughly rinsed it. After three weeks of planting my tank I am seeing what looks like dust particles floating in the water and I can see particles on some of my plants and rocks.
Be aware if you disturb the Soilmaster in any way, you will release any dust still there.
I shut off my Power Filter to see if I can get the dust to settle.
If I can't get the particles to settle, I am going to have to tear down the whole tank and use a different substrate.
It looks great in the tank but be careful using it.







Hoppy said:


> Laterite will cloud up the water unless you are careful to keep it below the soilmaster, especially while you are filling the tank with water. Soilmaster is very dirty as you get it, so it is best to wash it a bucket at a time until the water is reasonably clear. I don't know that the soilmaster dust and grime will do any harm if you don't wash it, but it will cloud up the tank until it all settles down. And, no, you don't need to wash laterite.


----------



## bastalker

dgness.....

I have soilmaster, an I for one can attest that you didn't rinse it enough. Doesn't matter how long you say you rinsed it, the fact is if your water is cloudy, an after 3 weeks your seeing dust everywhere, you didn't rinse it like you were suppose to, or the way you stated you did!

If you disturb the Soil master after 3 weeks an are seeing dust, you didn't rinse it enough..fact...

The filter will suck it up hopefully.

tc
Mark


----------



## fishscale

I get the feeling I didn't rinse enough either. What is a good way to get rid of any cloudiness that results?


----------



## Bulldog321

fishscale said:


> I get the feeling I didn't rinse enough either. What is a good way to get rid of any cloudiness that results?


 
I didn't rinse my SMS very well when I placed it in my 55. I essentially put in a bucket, filled it with water once, and drained the water, then added it to the tank.


I was setting up a new tank, so all I did was get an old power filter, and stuffed it with some filter floss. The first day it there wasn't any changes, but by the third day 90% of the cloudiness was gone.

Some people have added those drops that they sell to remove cloudiness. The drops bind particles together in the water, which will get trapped easier by the filter floss.


----------



## Dave B

g8wayg8r said:


> The real plus to me, however, was the ease of planting relative to flourite, which is an exercise in frustration. It's an active substrate that plants easier than in gravel. Compared to fine natural gravel, sand and flourite, it's the best I've ever used to set up a tank. For now, I highly recommend it.


Interesting. I've actually been really frustrated with planting because it's so light. I have had a really hard time keeping plants in place and usually have to make several attempts to get them to stay. Sometimes I have to overbury them and then come back in a day to brush some of it off. Stem plants are a lost cause, unless I use those little weights, which I've been told repeatedly aren't very good for the plants.

With regards to the setup, I used SMS over top of one bag of flourite in my 55g, and I did rinse the flourite before I used it. I have a fairly deep sink and the faucet has a detachable nozzle that can spray pretty hard. I used a 5g bucket and a little bit of flourite at a time and sprayed into the substrate pile. I held the bucket at an angle so I was able to keep emptying the water as it filled, and when the excess wasn't such a deep red sludge and started getting clearer, I put it in the bottom of the tank. I was much less careful with the SMS and just used a plate on top of it all when I filled the tank with water. It was clear within a few hours. I spent the next several days churning it up to get rid of all the air bubbles and kick up some dust. After several days, I didn't have any dust showing up at all.

(It's about the only thing that has gone smoothly with this tank, actually. Been battling algae and cloudy water and other stuff ever since.)


----------



## g8wayg8r

Yes, it is light. I usually run SoilMaster substrates about three inches deep which is more than enough to bury most stem plants. I have had trouble getting larger, bouyant plants (14 to 16 inches long) to stay put but I'm not sure if it would be a problem with gravel. I've started a new tank with sand with the bottom third mixed in with some good clay-like dirt) for a new look. It's a little more difficult to plant but it really holds the plants well. Either way has it's advantages. One thing for sure. I'll never pay premium dollars again for substrate. I don't see the need.


----------



## forddna

I finally gave up on planting anything without weights in my SMS.


----------



## scott53326

You will always get a little cloudiness when you are inserting or taking plants out of SMS. I did rinse my SMS. I also used a siphon/gravel vac with the g/f's nylon stocking over the end to get a lot more dust out of it.

At this point(just a little over 1 month of using SMS) I don't think it is any cloudier than flourite.

-Scott


----------



## inkslinger

will i'm planing to redo my gravel to SMS just stop at Lesco Store who had 28 50lb bags of Charcoal Soilmaster Pro Choice Select for $13.43, i have a 110g tank {60x18x24}, should 2 bags be enough for 3 to 4 inchs or should i go with 3, there is 3 Lesco Store less than 10 mins away from where i live , the salesman said its not in demand but he has a custormer who use it for his pond every year so i didn't have to expland my use for a planted tank


----------



## bastalker

inkslinger said:


> will i'm planing to redo my gravel to SMS just stop at Lesco Store who had 28 50lb bags of Charcoal Soilmaster Pro Choice Select for $13.43, i have a 110g tank {60x18x24}, should 2 bags be enough for 3 to 4 inchs or should i go with 3?


2 bags will be plenty. I got the 2.5 to 4" slope in my 75G with one bag.

tc
Mark


----------



## inkslinger

will i finally rinse my 100 pounds of SMS { 2x50lb bags} and put it in my 110g tank, i hope your right about it being light because i use a tape measure an it looks to be around 5 to 6 inches in my 60Lx18W tank , will this pack down when it settles or should i take out 25 pounds out , i was thinking of adding some rocks to raise or slope the sides a bit, i will add some pics some time in another forum later the landscaping is going to take a bit yet. :fish1:


----------



## reybie

Over time the slopes will flatten out if you have bottom dwellers.


----------



## inkslinger

yea reybie but its about 6 inches flat across now, shouldn't i take some out to drop it down to 4 , i think 75 lb or 80lb should be plentey :redface:


----------



## reybie

The shallowest part of my SMS is probably about 3 inches, I thought it wasn't deep enough but it actually worked. It was in the foreground so planting marsilea and some blyxa wasn't a problem at all.


----------



## steak

i tired to get that soilmaster....but my lesco said i could only order it by the pallet....not cool at all.


----------



## inkslinger

inkslinger said:


> yea reybie but its about 6 inches flat across now, shouldn't i take some out to drop it down to 4 , i think 75 lb or 80lb should be plentey :redface:


 will i took out a 5 gallon bucket and filled it , it drop my Sub down to about 3.5 inches , i might add a little back in to raise one side alittle


----------



## Khandurian

steak said:


> i tired to get that soilmaster....but my lesco said i could only order it by the pallet....not cool at all.


If you wanna make a trip up here to Brevard County, I'll sell you the last bag I have.


----------



## druxboyz

i tried searching for SMS near los angeles and the only one i found was this.

080310 PRO'S CHOICE SOILMASTER SOIL CONDITIONER (RED) 50# 

is this correct? I know its red and im willing to try a red substrate (i've had brown substrate for almost 2 yrs). I notice this item says "conditioner" while you guys have been saying "Select".


----------



## mas77

druxboyz said:


> i tried searching for SMS near los angeles and the only one i found was this.
> 
> 080310 PRO'S CHOICE SOILMASTER SOIL CONDITIONER (RED) 50#
> 
> is this correct? I know its red and im willing to try a red substrate (i've had brown substrate for almost 2 yrs). I notice this item says "conditioner" while you guys have been saying "Select".


You need to look on the Lesco wed site. They are the manufacturers and I'm sure there are at least a few Lesco stores in the LA area.


----------



## Rod Hay

mas77 said:


> You need to look on the Lesco wed site. They are the manufacturers .


Sorry, this is WRONG! I know this may seem just picky. However, as many folks read these threads, wrong information can sometimes be taken as 'gospel' and have a snowball effect.

Lesco is one *distributor* for Soilmaster products.

Oil Dri is the *manufacturer*:
http://www.oildri.com/index.html
If you want to read about the product at _their_ website follow the links for agri/sport products.

Regular Soilmaster has a larger grain size.
Soilmaster Select is a little smaller, finer.
They both work very well. The Select looks a little better; probably works a little better with very fine foreground plants like HC.


----------



## shwerm601

Rod Hay said:


> Sorry, this is WRONG! I know this may seem just picky. However, as many folks read these threads, wrong information can sometimes be taken as 'gospel' and have a snowball effect.
> 
> Lesco is one *distributor* for Soilmaster products.
> 
> Oil Dri is the *manufacturer*:
> http://www.oildri.com/index.html
> If you want to read about the product at _their_ website follow the links for agri/sport products.
> 
> Regular Soilmaster has a larger grain size.
> Soilmaster Select is a little smaller, finer.
> They both work very well. The Select looks a little better; probably works a little better with very fine foreground plants like HC.


 
The guy at lesco told me same thing, said the select is more refined so pieces are all roughly equal size where as regular soil master isn't as such. 

I rinsed mine more then enough or so I thought, when I filled and had a cloudy tank but it settled out and I vacuumed gravel. Surprisingly, in my syphon you can such it up in but itll just fall back out. Seems to be pretty light, but it wont get sucked up on your syphon which makes it easy to clean. After putting half a tanks worth of water in.


----------



## matpat

I didn't rinse my SMS at all and you can see by the pics in my initial post that it did not cloud the water much. I also used a dinner plate to help distribute the fill water when I added it. I have to wonder how people get so much cloudiness out of their SMS. I guess it is possible that the composition has changed a bit over the years.

As far as planting is concerned, I haven't had many issues with planting anything other than H. balsamica or big stems of H. difformis. Then again, I use forceps to plant since I have pretty fat fingers. If I use my fingers, I'm lucky to get plants planted in sand, let alone SMS


----------



## hojimoe

i filled with SMS last week and I had some substantial cloudiness but that was because I think I didn't rinse enough, rinsed until water was clear, but not enough?.... I also added with a strainer into an already filled tank...maybe that's why? doesn't matter now, did some WC's and it settled down and is very clear now!


----------



## Coolpix

Just got luck today with 1 bag of Charcoal SMS at Anaheim store, but not enough to get about 3" deep in my 180gal (6x2x2). Still hunting for 2 more bags. Hope someone in OC, CA can help.


----------



## jaidexl

*Edit/Warning: Do NOT email AQP.com on this issue, they will not appreciate it and it's borderlining on a defamation lawsuit if you poke too hard or try to share your opinion online, so be warned before making any mistakes or statements you might legally pay for. Visit the substrate forum at APC.com if you want to know the skinny, and try to keep it over there, we don't need any of the drama here, and I certainly did not intend to create any by posting the following. That said, I have no real issues with how they do business or what they are selling, and the following was posted to simply inform inquiring minds who've been wondering. Also, I did not make any of this up as it came directly from Oil-Dry.*

This is somewhat interesting. I had some correspondence with an Oil-Dri rep, I was asking if any other local distributor carries SMS other than Lesco and if they'd sell one bag....

_"Hi Jaide,

Thank you for contacting us. We have one distributor that carries Select
Charcoal in single bags, Aquarium Plant Life in South Dakota.

Mark Harmen
Aquarium Plant Life
46983 Mindy Street 
Tea, SD 57064 
Ph: 605-368-2600 

Mark and the team at Aquarium Plant Life will be able to answer any
questions you may have regarding product availability and cost with freight.

We do have Pro's Choice distributors in Florida, but they primarily carry
our sports field products: Pro Mound, Rapid Dry, Pro Red.

Select in Charcoal in single bag quantities are used by aquarium users -
hence the referal to this distributor in SD. The question came up recently,
and after conferring with our sales managers, I found out Aquarium Plant
Life is still our only distributor of Select Charcoal in single bags.

Thanks again,

Paula

-- 

Paula Jasinski
Fulfillment Coordinator
Oil-Dri Corporation"_

I called them and turns out it's aquariumplants.com, and the guy had no clue what SMS was until I mentioned a red bucket.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

jaidexl said:


> This is somewhat interesting. I had some correspondence with an Oil-Dri rep, I was asking if any other local distributor carries SMS other than Lesco and if they'd sell one bag....
> 
> "Hi Jaide,
> 
> Thank you for contacting us. We have one distributor that carries Select
> Charcoal in single bags, Aquarium Plant Life in South Dakota.
> 
> Mark Harmen
> Aquarium Plant Life
> 46983 Mindy Street
> Tea, SD 57064
> Ph: 605-368-2600
> 
> Mark and the team at Aquarium Plant Life will be able to answer any
> questions you may have regarding product availability and cost with freight.
> 
> We do have Pro's Choice distributors in Florida, but they primarily carry
> our sports field products: Pro Mound, Rapid Dry, Pro Red.
> 
> Select in Charcoal in single bag quantities are used by aquarium users -
> hence the referal to this distributor in SD. The question came up recently,
> and after conferring with our sales managers, I found out Aquarium Plant
> Life is still our only distributor of Select Charcoal in single bags.
> 
> Thanks again,
> 
> Paula
> 
> --
> 
> Paula Jasinski
> Fulfillment Coordinator
> Oil-Dri Corporation"
> 
> I called them and turns out it's aquariumplants.com, and the guy had no clue what SMS was until I mentioned a red bucket.



If so, then it confirms that the red bucket stuff is in fact repackaged SMS. Yes....!!! I got the right stuff for testing.










And it seems if that is the case, people looking for SMS may have no choice but to buy AP'S red bucket SMS.


----------



## jaidexl

Exactly. The only other options are to get lucky and find a bag in inventory at a local Lesco or go back to one of the other options like Turface Pro league grey. I've emailed every other carrier that pops up through google and none of them have responded in months.

It sucks that aquariumplants.com's is that expensive, the price was the main factor for me buying it the first time. There are plenty of other ways to get your hands on calcined clay at the cheap price that made it popular to begin with, we just have to find a way to get it.

On my journey's, I also figured out that regular Turface is the same thing as Shultz aquatic soil, both are from Profile. And Oil-Dri is the maker of Cat's Pride brand cat litter (ugly white color).


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Yeah, I hear you, the mark up sucks. But since I had no way to get this stuff locally or even an online from a Canadian Supplier I bit the bullet. As AP does have the option of local pick up in Winnipeg for $10, I did save some in shipping. 

Schultz Aquatic Soil is fire kindled fuller's earth and Turface is allegedly crushed clay, so I don't believe they are the same, but for plant growth it may not make a huge difference.

For what it's worth when I converted my 40 gallon to a planted tank, I over-estimated the number of bags of Schultz Aquatic Soil I would need. I ended up with 1 1/2 bags left over. The half bag is good for any future testing, but for now I am petty much done testing Schultz as a sole substrate so I would have happily given you that extra bag for free if you were my neighbour.


----------



## jaidexl

Ok, you are probably right. The Profile site never stated they were the same, but still products of the same company.

I still have a lot of SMS left in my one bag after using some in a 65gl. I've been searching for the sake of others and also to get my hands on some more if possible, before it's unavailable at a low price, which is starting to look like the case.  ...for now, I told Oil-Dri that we're all converting back to cat litter and Turface. 

I'm going to try and talk my LFS into repackaging their own SMS. They've been trying to get some from Lesco for a few display tanks but it was a no go. Maybe they can get a pallet or just hook up with Oil-Dri. They already know of the demand online from me telling them, maybe I can talk them into taking the reins.


----------



## bharada

SMS will be harder for us in the bay area to get, too. Late last year the local Lesco was clearing out their SMS in favor of Turface.


----------



## CrimsonKeel

You dont have to get it at lesco
I found mine at 
Phoenix Stone Company
74 Floral Ave. Mount Clemens, MI 48043
Toll Free: (866) MyStone 
Detroit metro area
they didnt have any in stock but when there spring order goes out they are getting me 3 bags.
all i did was email oildri and ask for a local distributor and in the email i told them my local lesco didnt have it and if there were any other distributors in my area.
so sometime this spring ill be getting 3 bags at if i remember right 9 bucks apiece.


----------



## equus_peduus

bharada said:


> SMS will be harder for us in the bay area to get, too. Late last year the local Lesco was clearing out their SMS in favor of Turface.


I got some from the Concord store of Lesco in mid-December; he had 8 bags of the Charcoal color left at that time. No idea if he still has any. He may have the red or Turface as well, but I didn't ask. It was about $8/bag plus tax at the time


----------



## jaidexl

CrimsonKeel said:


> You dont have to get it at lesco
> I found mine at
> Phoenix Stone Company
> 74 Floral Ave. Mount Clemens, MI 48043
> Toll Free: (866) MyStone
> Detroit metro area
> they didnt have any in stock but when there spring order goes out they are getting me 3 bags.
> all i did was email oildri and ask for a local distributor and in the email i told them my local lesco didnt have it and if there were any other distributors in my area.
> so sometime this spring ill be getting 3 bags at if i remember right 9 bucks apiece.


That's weird, I wonder why they told me aquariumplants is the only one. how long ago was this?


----------



## CrimsonKeel

jaidexl said:


> That's weird, I wonder why they told me aquariumplants is the only one. how long ago was this?



It was around christmas 07.
I looked for the email address today from the lady who got me in touch with phoenix but i must have deleted it.


----------



## super_smirky

My Lesco claimed to not have it and said nothing about ordering it...but when I kept asking, they did say their main warehouse had it and they could order....2 weeks later, I got me 3 bags of it. Guess you have to be persistent


----------



## jaidexl

That's one thing I haven't tried, bugging to the local Lesco. I guess so many have had no luck there that I figure it's a wash, but I'll try anyway.

I'm trying to find single bags or Turface Pro League Grey now, it looks identical to SMS charcoal, and looks is all I personally care about. It should serve the purpose the same even if it's technically a different type of clay.


----------



## discusman1

I bought 2 bags of SMS Charcoal from Lesco in San Jose about a month ago. He asked me if I was going to use it in an aquarium. He knew and said he will order some more to keep it in stock. I guess many people have bought from him before.

Peter


----------



## Coolpix

discusman1 said:


> I bought 2 bags of SMS Charcoal from Lesco in San Jose about a month ago. He asked me if I was going to use it in an aquarium. He knew and said he will order some more to keep it in stock. I guess many people have bought from him before.
> 
> Peter


Peter . can you ask him if he can ship couple bags down to Orange County, Socali ? I try to get 2 bag so I can start my tank. One store to other store are doable i guess. if not ask him if he can ship directly to me and the cost. thanks.


----------



## discusman1

Coolpix,

The guy at the store just called me and told me their order for the SMS was not fulfilled. They are phasing it out. On that note, he did mention a Lesco in Houston has 100+ bags and you can probably call them to get a quote. Sorry.

Peter


----------



## Coolpix

no problem. thank for the head up


----------



## zedron

I called the local Lesco today and asked if theu had any charcoal in stock and the sale rep said they were getting rid of it and switching to a different product altogether from Pros Choice.


----------



## jaidexl

I hope it's Turface Pro League gray and they still allow one unit ordered online for local pickup.


----------



## Bugman

I also went by a local (Atlanta) Lesco today and found out the same info. They are phasing out SMS. What is on hand in their stores is it. I then went to the Pro's Choice web site and see that they no longer offer SMS in Charcoal, only the red. I haven't read anything about Turface Pro League. Is it the same product??


----------



## bharada

Turface is soil amendment product made by Profile.

http://www.turface.com/sports_fields/product.cfm?category=1&product=trf_pr_lg


----------



## jaidexl

Someone posted a pic of Pro League Gray here or at APC and it's identical in color and size to SMS charcoal.


I just checked Lesco.com for Turface Pro League Gray and it seems you can order one unit for local pickup the same way it was done with SMS, although I didn't go as far as entering a CC number. The only down side is the cost, $23.22, still a decent price for a 50# bag of calcined clay.


----------



## Bugman

Here is the link on Lesco. I did place a order for 1 bag. I will let you know how it goes.

http://www.lesco.com/Default.aspx?PageID=87&Category=25


----------



## Bugman

Sorry the link doesn't take you to the final page. when the link comes up you will have some drop downs. Group = mulch, Type = soil admendment. Then go to the 3rd page and you will see the Truface.


----------



## jaidexl

Thanks B, I'm interested to see how it goes. 

I think we should all make an effort to _not_ tell them what we're doing with it, I have this suspicion that they were annoyed with us buying SMS, and were trying to make it harder for us to get. Maybe it even had something to do with the switch to Turface and they think we'll go away now. Or I guess they would've just disabled the ability to order 1 unit if that was the case... maybe I'm just a conspiracy theorist... either way, if I end up getting some, I'm going to tell them I have an irrigation issue in my yard and leave it at that.


----------



## Dkdoll

Wow, I'm surprised about this actually. I thought it would be pretty much impossible to find SMS now that the stores are discontinuing it, but I found two branches that each had a bag lying around from previous orders that were not picked up. I had them shipped to my branch. They might charge for shipping if they're part of another company, but its only $5-7, which still beats the price on high-tech gravel.

So if you're still looking for this stuff, check a few zip codes around you, and you might find an odd branch with a bag or two.


----------



## JasonMonette

I have one bag of this stuff....any one interested? I am located in kalamazoo Michigan


----------

