# Battling a persistant Red Algae.



## jmelnek (Dec 20, 2004)

I am in the same boat as you only my CO2 is at around 15ppm and PO4 is 4. Hope this thread finds a solution.


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## ceg4048 (Mar 26, 2004)

Betowess,
I've had a look at that article and although I really respect The Krib I feel that some of the information is outdated or has been disproven. The most famous errors on The Krib is the Sears & Conlin conclusion that algae can be controlled by limiting PO4, which has been disproven. Likewise, in that particular page the author speculates:

"If one or more plant nutrients are substantially reduced or completely eliminated from the water, then the algae will fail. This can be accomplished by managing iron which is one of the most important trace nutrients."

We know now from the Tom Barr studies that this is blatantly false in that removing or reducing nutrients from the water column actually gives the advantage to algae since they thrive in nutrient poor conditions.

Knowing that the authors premise is false the only logical assumption is that his conclusions are also invalid since they are based on this false premise.

The EI premise is that the appearance of algae is an indicator of a nutrient deficiency and that is why EI places so much emphasis on having an excess of nutrients which guarantees that you elliminate the deficiency. I don't think you posted what exactly your dosing regimen i.e how many grams/teaspoons is or at what interval. EI also elliminates the need for testing due to the inaccuracy of the test kits. In your post you mention that you're "...also testing alot right now..." which may be a part of the problem. If your kH or pH or NO3 kits are giving you false highs you may draw the conclusion that high nutrient levels are causing your algae when in fact you may actually have low nutrient levels.

I would strongly recommend against lowering any of the nutrient dosing and in fact would recommend increasing the dosage. I believe for example that decreasing the CO2 levels would just be inviting trouble. It's likely that you do not have enough CO2. I know it sounds outrageous but I would do everything exactly opposite of what you proposed in your post.

I'll speculate that extensive physical removal followed by a three day (maximum) blackout would be the first thing to try but DOSE NO3 PO4 Traces and CO2 during the blackout period. The blackout has no effect if you don't dose. In fact, you may not even need the blackout for this species as long as you dose properly - normally blackouts are used for BGA but you may have some of that as well.

Tom Barr has explained that the idea of the blackout is that you synthetically signal the onset of winter to the algae where they go dormant and stop reproducing, but the spores use more than just light as their signal. The rest of the environmental conditions have to match - High (and steady) CO2 concentrations, High NO3 concentrations and low NH4 concentrations induce the algae into dormancy. If you fail to dose properly it is pointless. In a 90 gallon 1.5 teaspoons of KNO3 and 1/4 teaspoon of KH2PO4 the first and third day of the blackout along with CO2 increase would not be unreasonable. Add traces including iron on the second day.

If you are following the EI strategy you should be dosing absolute grams/teaspoons and should NOT be dosing to the levels indicated by the test kit. Tom Barr would say "Test kits lie, algae never lie"

Hope this give you some ideas.

Cheers,


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Hey, I just now saw your post. Thanks very much for the thoughtful reply!! roud: Sadly I wish I had seen it some weeks earlier. I quit looking. My mistake. 

On a positive note, I kind of came to the same conclusion, through trial and error. I'm going to post what seems to be working, though it is still a bit early, but it appears I did have a deficiency in both calcium and possibly potassium, perhaps others. It certainly wasn't CO2 as I was well into 30 to 40ppm at the time. I raised the pH up abit to 7.1, and that has certainly slowed this rusty colored nasty down alot. So in that respect, Neil Frank's article is of use. 

But I think that higher dosing is what is really turning the corner. I am trying to dose at near EI level dosing and it appears to be working and just today starting cranking the CO2 again. Since its not a mature tank, I believe EI dosing is a bit too high at this time. 15ml of CSM+B causes serious clouding and maintenance doses of 7mls of PO4 at this time can push levels over 3ppm on phosphates. But it appears this red junk is abating on most species and the glass is staying cleaner, so things may finally be looking up. Its only been about a week that I tried reducing the light time and upping the dosing and getting the calcium/mg and K doses at appropriate levels. If this doesn't do the trick, I might try the blackout you mentioned. Thanks again! bob


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

ceg4048 said:


> The most famous errors on The Krib is the Sears & Conlin conclusion that algae can be controlled by limiting PO4, which has been disproven.


Disproven by what? I have to disagree that it does not work. I had a tank FULL of BBA and using the method of limiting P04, successfully eradicated it in a rather big way. I cycled 50 to 75% every 3 days, keeping ferts and CO2 high (except p04) which arrested the BBA growth. After 3 weeks, the BBA MELTED away in like 2 days and even the green spot algae just fell off the sides of the tank in a thin sheet. It was a surprisingly abrupt success.
The P04 limiting method works, though it can be tedious at times when you need to get rid of an already established algae problem.
-Aphyosemion


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Well this red algae really likes a little extra iron. Started coming back again with higher iron doses and perhaps higher everything doses. I shut down the lights all day, brought the pH back up to 7.1 and most of it had clearly dissappeared again from the "baby tears" when I took a peek tonight. Thats where I first noticed it making another appearance. I think I might stick with a higher pH and less iron for a while and see if I can eliminate it. Frustrating crap. Any ideas??? bob


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Well, I suspect that some of this red algae is related to the "corrupted" Eco complete I got which seems to gradually leach Calcium in the water. I have shortened the light period, and only use both banks of T5s for about 4 hours, raised the lights to about 8 inches above water line and am keeping the pH at a crummy 7.1, so I'm not getting much CO2. I have also really cut back on trace/iron. Plants need a little more, I can see. But this is helping to "control" (really slow down) the red dusty stuff. 

I'm going to yank out the Eco and put in some standard gravel and flourite, after I transfer the fish to my change water tank. Then put mainly new plants in after a major cleanup of any parts with this algae. I might even yank all the hoses and sterilize them. Never had such a problem with an algae this long, so I suspect the Eco is providing something that is causing a limiting factor, not with standing the low CO2 concentration I have to have to keep the pH at 7.1 -7.2. Once again, anyone with a similar experience with this bright rust colored algae? Suggestions certainly welcome. Thanks, bob


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## ctmpwrdcamry (May 10, 2005)

I have been having this issue in my tank too. When i posted picutres people told me i would need to tear down the tank and start over  which i had just finished doing. I am going to try the black out this weekend when i wont be home. I do not have the dry firts yet, but i will dose some extra tomorrow morning. Hope it helps roud:


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I checked your thread and don't think bleach is your answer, or another teardown. I think you need to post your water parameters and look into what's causing that algae mess you have there.

It's important to understand what kind of algae you have in your tank and if a blackout is indicated for that. If you're dealing with red algae, at least with BBA, it won't do any good to do a blackout. So consider what type of algae you are dealing with. There's a cut and paste with blackout instructions I got from Mr. Barr in the next paragraph. 

Prune unhealthy or heavily infested leaves, scrape algae and clean the tank. If a lot of plants have to be removed due to severity of the infestation, replace with new. Clean out your filter. Do a 50% water change. Cover the tank with something to block out the light and turn off the lights for 3-5 days. Turn off the CO2 also and drop an airstone in the tank. Now sit on your hands and wait.

Uncover the tank. Do another 50% water change.


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## ctmpwrdcamry (May 10, 2005)

Hum, then i wonder the type of algee i have. I will try and get some peramiters posted.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thanks alot Aquaverde, I'm almost certain its a type of red algae and not the standard BBA in my case as I have wiped out BBA before. Not the common short black beard or brush variety in all the local fish stores with planted tanks without CO2.

My parms are or were in order. KH 5, pH 7.1, GH 8, Nitrates around 10 to 20ppm, PO4 1 to 3ppm, trace (Greg Watson's CSM w/extra iron) two to three times a week, though I lowered the dose to about 8ml on change day and just 3 or 4 on other day redoses.Otherwise I got clouding. 

I've read keeping the iron low helps limit this red algae. Potassium Sulphate at 1.5 teaspoons on change day. I don't dose KNO3 or Phosphates during the week because the fish and food keep the levels very high. 

The pH is this high to slow down the algae, and that is definately helping. This stuff doesn't look too bad and a couple of plants are thriving with no evidence at all such as Java Fern and Egeria. Eventually older leaves get it such as on my Apono, but now not nearly as fast as before. Shortening and lowering the photoperiod has helped. Blackouts do help substantially. I might try the Barr suggestion one more time. I have done that before successfully, but it came back, albeit more slowly. Thanks. I suspect the Eco has something in it this algae really likes.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Aphyosemion said:


> Disproven by what? I have to disagree that it does not work. I had a tank FULL of BBA and using the method of limiting P04, successfully eradicated it in a rather big way. I cycled 50 to 75% every 3 days, keeping ferts and CO2 high (except p04) which arrested the BBA growth. After 3 weeks, the BBA MELTED away in like 2 days and even the green spot algae just fell off the sides of the tank in a thin sheet. It was a surprisingly abrupt success.
> The P04 limiting method works, though it can be tedious at times when you need to get rid of an already established algae problem.
> -Aphyosemion


So why don't I have BBA then?

Was it the other ferts that were now kepted in good shape or was it the PO4 reduction?

We did this in a controlled setting, we limited the PO4 to 0.0ppm with hach test kits, and excess nutrients/CO2 good light.

The BBA persisted for 6months.
We tried Barely straw , extract of barely straw etc.
Next we diod the same NO3.

Same response.

Why did we not see the same results?
Why don't I have any BBa with high PO4 for decades?

If what they say is true, why don't I have horrid algae?
PO4 is well in excess as is Fe etc.

Stable CO2 stops the BBA from growing.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Tom, Do you have any secrets to wiping out a musty red algae? Thanks, bob


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

O.K. I bought some 4mil black plastic and covered the tank and also put an airstone in there. I'm keeping the CO2 on, as its hooked to a pH controler. I'm keeping pH at 7.2 because this algae does better in soft acid water. I'm shooting for a 5 day blackout. I'll post what happens in about a week. I didn't take everything out with any algae on it. But I might after the cure. I'm hoping this signals dormant season, or kills it. We'll see. I'm skeptical regards this nasty red stuff. Cheers. bob


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

You aren't supposed to have the CO2 on during a blackout. If you have any bait in the tank, insert an airstone.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Well, the CO2 is minimal to keep the pH at 7.1. I have oyster shells and some latent calcium carb in the corrupted Eco which raises the pH up so the CO2 is just to keep the slightly base pH relatively stable. Otherwise my soft water seems calcium deficient. Yes, I put an airstone in there. But my fish are hardly "bait", or at least I would like to think so. bob


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Bait's just a euphemism. Really, they're too expensive for that... :tongue: 

I don't understand your reasoning for trying to lower the pH during a blackout. The airstone should help insure no damage from it, though, as it ought to outgas most of the CO2 you try to inject. That pH controller is going to be running constantly.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

The pH controler just keeps the pH where I set it, so thats why I leave it running. Otherwise the corrupted Eco or the oyster shells slowly raise the pH and I want to keep it fairly constant - within a half a degree - say between pH 6.7 to 7.2. And this red algae seems to thrive in soft, acid water which most plants prefer.

I did the 4.5 day blackout. Fish were fine and it killed all the green algae (which is definately not a problem), or darn near all of it. The blackout just slowed down the nasty red stuff. I suspect it isn't a light dependent species, though it thrives in high light. I spot it in the edge of the glass below the top of the substrate too. I have spotted it in the intake of my impellar, or perhaps it was something fairly similar. Almost like a rusty slime mud on the intake, and there was no light in there. So its still here, though temporarily diminished. . This is the algae from hell, IMHO! And I got it from an online plant supplier.

I'm keeping a close eye on iron as that seems to be a limiting nutrient. But the plants need it too. And I am going to replace this substrate when time allows, as I try to eliminate causes. This bad batch of Eco complete is on the possible "contributing factors" culprits list. Anyone with similar experience or ideas??? Help!


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Glad the blackout had some positive effect for you. Good luck with the other. I had something similar, a rust-red algae with a slimy looking character that broke out like gangbusters in a no-fish tank shortly after adding fish to it. I had decided to get rid of the mix on top of the substrate and replace it with Onyx sand (actually Gray Coast Calcite-they're the same except for price). I cleaned things out very well, removed the fish and it disappeared entirely. I have since added back fish slowly and now have more fish in the tank than I had at the time of the problem. It has not returned. The algae literally was covering all the plants and the glass.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thanks James. It is good to hear that you beat a similar sounding algae, and that it might of been the Grey Coast calcite as a contributing factor. Because I'm about out of suspects, at this time. Not looking forward to the task ahead, but I do want to wipe this stuff out. Did you "sterilize" your hoses, or do you think thats overkill, no pun intended. Thanks again. bob


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## Lissette (Apr 2, 2005)

Betowess,

I had a very similar experience using the eco-complete. It was a freaking nightmare! This stuff completely changed the water chemistry in my tank, and on top of that, BGA, and Green Water.

I set up my planted tank in October. Didn't know squat about fertilizing or anything, so naturally, my plants weren't happy. By the time I figured out what to do (by January), I realized that my water had zero nitrates. Added No3 & traces and everything grew well. Then, in March, I decided to buy eco-complete. That, was the worst decision I've ever made. My Kh, Gh, Ph...just went bananas. I couldn't figure out my co2 readings because kh would go up a few degrees in just a few hours. I did water changes like crazy, anything to stabilize the tank, but to no avail. I lost a fair amount of fish and some of my sanity during this stage, and then...BGA.

Mind you, I was dosing No3 since January. Before that my plants were starving for it for months and I never had BGA. I was so mad. This stuff is another nightmare to get rid of. 

Good luck in your battle. I know how tiring it can get. I got to the point that I just wanted to throw the tank out the window and forget the whole thing. I'm glad that I persisted. Right now my tank is stable and the water is clear and the plants are growing.

Lissette


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Betowess said:


> Thanks James. It is good to hear that you beat a similar sounding algae, and that it might of been the Grey Coast calcite as a contributing factor. Because I'm about out of suspects, at this time. Not looking forward to the task ahead, but I do want to wipe this stuff out. Did you "sterilize" your hoses, or do you think thats overkill, no pun intended. Thanks again. bob


No, didn't sterilize the hoses. Also, I can't really conclude what the magic bullet was, other than all of it put together seemed to work.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thanks James and Lissette and all you other contributors. I'll post what happens when I get around to taking out the Eco. Its not that bad at this time, but it just kind of festers in the background waiting to pop up its ugly, rusty head. bob.


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## Pete City (Apr 2, 2005)

Betowess,
Sorry to hear that you are still having problems, you actually personal messaged me when I thought I was going out of my mind because know one could relate to my wacked out PH & KH readings with eco-complete.
I had the same problems with algae, except for the red algae you are experiencing (not familiar with this one). I threw out the ph & kh tests and cranked my CO2 until I saw a reaction with my fish then backed off and finally dialed it in.
It has worked, I have very small amounts of algae if any, as before when I was keeping my CO2 levels to what I thought were about 30ppm I had thread algae & bba, now they are all under control.
When I last used my ph & kh to test my CO2, reading was 144ppm I know it's not correct and I suppose I will never really know what my CO2 readings are with this substrate, but my tank is doing ok.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Good to hear its working Pete. Yeah this red stuff is a different kind of beast. Actually prefers the soft water and high CO2 so I have to keep my ppm on CO2 fairly mellow. But I'm hopeful its related to some Ocean substrate mixed in with the Eco which makes for a favorable red algae environment. We'll see. Right now I'm too busy at work to make the substrate change. Thanks, bob


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Betowess,

I was about to make a post of my own, then I saw your thread. I, too, have a similar algae in my tank, probably the same as you. 

The first is a patchy, reddish, rusty colored algae that develops on some leaves -- noticeable on green leaves like my Sword leaves. I couldn't really rub it off. The second algae looks like green spot, but it is black, looks like pepper or ash on a leave. It seems to prefer older leaves, though not always. It appears on the surface of leaves, but is often seen running along the rim of a leave, giving it a black burnt outline of sorts. I think both algaes are in the red/BBA family. I also have a little green spot algae, on some leaves and around where the subtrate meets the glass.

Most of the reddish rusty algae has disappeared. I only see a bit of it on older Tenellus leaves. The black pepper-like stuff, however, is persistent and I have not yet been able to remove it entirely.

Some things I've done: I keep my pressurized CO2 high, about a 6.3ph with a KH of 5. I do weekly 40-50% water changes, changed my filter, cleaned my outtake tube, and have been fairly brutal in my pruning. I'vr turned off my UV and have been doing nightly overdoses of Excel, since it is known to have an effect on some BBA.

A few weeks ago I stopped dosing KNO3 and PO4 when I increased my fish load and increased my feeding. Tests (With a Lamotte kit) showed ample NO3 and PO4 in the water. Since stopping my additions of KNO3 and PO4 I don't get nearly as much dust algae on the glass, which is why I stopped them. I do add a dose of K after water change, I dose 2.5ml of Iron 3x a week along with 7.5ml of CSM+B, in my 50 gallon.

By the way, months ago when I was dosing KNO3 and PO4, I still endured a small outbreak of BBA. It eventually "went away". I only mention this to show that I experienced the algae when dosing KNO3 and PO4.

I wish I could offer a solution. It pains me to keep cutting leaves. I do use Flourite, for what it is worth.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thanks Montifone, It sounds like a workable regimen. I have tried similar and still this stuff has come back. Perhaps I wasn't prunning aggresively enough. Strangely, it doesn't mess with my compacta sword,java fern, nor green hygro. Just about everything else is fair game, except a lotus I had which died but is now coming back. Yet this stuff can live in the substrate, below light level on the glass edge and lived through a 4.5 day blackout though it diminished it a bit. I think I am going to remove the "corrupted" Eco-complete and see what some plain gravel and new uncorrupted Eco or perhaps flourite does. Interestingly, this algae does not survive in my 26bow, if I move plants over there from the 90 gal., they flourish. As it stands, the tank looks pretty nice, without my glasses on. But take a close look and it bums me out.

But I may try (one more time) upping the CO2 and see what happens. Its definately a red variety in the BBA group, I believe. But as I have said before, this variety seems to thrive in soft water with iron and high CO2. Now that I have a laptop, I'll post some pics after next week's business trip. This old computer at home won't accept a compact flash card reader and I've had to post pics from work.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Yah, the darn stuff is really stubborn. It's not the end of the world, but it'd be nice to be free of it. Excel doesn't seem to do much to it -- then again my BBA is not the traditional brushy stuff. I did a big pruning and this algae is still trying to keep hold. My bottle of CSM+B just ran out, so I started a new batch. My CSM+B of 250ml lasts about 2 months. I keep it in the fridge and it stays green for about 2 weeks when first mixed, then turns brown for the remainder. Who knows if that is contributing. Is your CSM+B batch brown and older?

My CO2 is quite high. Lotus leaves never seem to get the stuff. It pains me to cut so many leaves, especially on my crypts, which are finicky and melt enough as it is. I've noticed more spot algae where the gravel meets the glass. I am resuming small supplemental NO3 and PO4 doses.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Yeah, Greg reported once that the color change doesn't mean much on CSM +B. I just did a big cleaning and prune and have the CO2 around 55ppm. I don't think this stuff likes CO2 that high and with the pH is around 6.4. I noticed alot fell off the spray bar so thats hopeful, and there is a lot of "dust" on the gravel so I'm hoping its dead "red" algae... Hope! hope, hope, is all I have left. If that doesn't work, its the nuclear option, meaning start over with new substrate and a majority of new plants except the swords, java etc. But that will be when I have time which I haven't much of at present. Cheers, bob


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## RobD (May 17, 2005)

Anybody know how to get this stuff (red brush) subsided in a non-CO2 tank? It's all over my rockwork, and has jumped onto my anacharis, apons, and ludwiga. I also spotted it on my filter intake tubes. I have two true SAEs that I just bought, but they are more interested in swimming with the dwarf loaches up and down the tank sides. It's a deep purple-redish quarter-inch brush, along with a covering.

I've been using Flourish for my traces, should I switch to the CSM+B to cut the iron down? I'm still not sure I'm dosing anything right for my tank, despite some advice from Tom. My ludwiga is showing new growth, where before it wasn't doing anything, so I must be dosing something right. I think it was the addition of the Excel that got this plant going again.

Oh yeah, the thread on using Excel to battle BBA. I only add it twice a week, 10ml (90 gallon treatment). I bought the 2L bottle from BigAls and dose with a syringe (since the cap is bigger than the 500ml bottles).


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I have a new post on the photo section. I finally dumped my corrupted Eco complete, which interestingly is not so "black" now that it has dryed out in the sun. Apparently, Carib Sea ran into a " calcium carbonate" vein in their volcanic rock quarry and I got some of the batch before their attempted "cure" with some kind of disatrous pH down phosphate buffer. The cure was worse than the corrupted substrate, no doubt judging from some of the other posts. 

Anyhow, I finally and recently replaced my substrate with 60 pounds of inert large gravel on top of about 100 pounds of new, free and "clean" Eco-complete. To me its No Big Deal they sent me a hundred bucks for lost "live stock". Not worth a dime for all the head aches... I tossed about 90% of my plants including compacta swords I had had for over two years and a beautiful apono and many others... I tossed anything which had a slightest trace of the rusty, red devil. The only plants I put back from the original tank was a Java Fern...( which we all know contains an natural algaecide), and a recently reincarnated red tiger lotus. I also put in some un-infected asian ambulia from my other tank. Lastly, I performed a very major clean-up, though I lost some steam in the effort at the end and said: "Ah, expletive it".

So the long and short is: although I didn't replace the hoses and sponges from my XP3, there is nada (Zippo) red algae showing up in the tank at this time, after two weeks. 

I originally got the algae from an online plant supplier. I'm not naming them. Your guess... This same supplier also sold me the corrupted CaribSea Eco-complete. I suspect that they suffered the same algae with the same corrupted Eco-complete. And to close this thread, the nasty, nasty red algae (after about two weeks) has NOT shown up in the re-started tank. Sure, some green film algae on the glass (Welcome, believe me). 

And I thought I could beat this algae when I first saw it with ferts and pressurized CO2. NOT SO!! If you have it, and it manifests itself slowly on leaves and spraybars, you cannot beat it. It is persistent - even throughout 5 day blackouts etc. It likes soft water, iron, and light and something in the corrupted substrate. *So if you have it, IMmostHO, its best to punt  * and get some inert substrate and clean plants. Then aquarium life can become a joy again. From now on I'll buy all my plants locally, if possible. If I see any algae, save basic thread or hair algaes etc., I'll run as fast as I can from any plant which looks minutely infected. 

I hope this helps anyone battling this nasty. Good luck. You'll need it if you have the rust red algae. bob roud: ps, thanks Aquaverde!! New substrate and a clean plants seems to have been the cure, knocking hard on wood! :


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Great news, Betowess, I know you're glad that chapter in tank history has closed!


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