# Will excel provide enough CO2?



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I think it will and it'll keep algae at bay too. It's has a disinfecting nature.

The only down side is it's expensive and has possible issues with crustacean larvae and fish fry. In a low tech environment, you might not need to dose everyday or even at all.

I run a couple of low-techs I pretty much ignore.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I use Metracide 14 as an excel replacement. It is 2.6% Glutaraldehyde. I think Excel is 1.7 percent, so you can do 1 of two things, mix it with distilled water or dose less. I actually use it in my 75g tank with great success(and at this price it is affordable, will take a long time before I buy another regulator at this rate, though not AS good as co2, it works for my LT purpose). 

I just use an excel bottle to keep it close, the gallon stays in a closet. I use the lid to dose, just like when I used excel.

I bought from here http://www.dealmed.com/Products/Surface-Disinfectants/Metricide-14-Day-1-Gallon By far the cheapest solution for 1 gallon of this. Do not use the activator that comes with it(you will understand when you get it).


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Excel will work fine don't worry about the pH 7.6 is within the normal range for 90% of the fish your ever going to keep. Remember the less light the less C02 and ferts plants need I never dose Excel daily in my low-light tanks, once a week usually does the trick.

- Brad


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## ramlover22 (Mar 6, 2010)

Thank you. My lights are 1.5 watts/gal. If I dose the excel once a week after water change, can I do just the flourish once a week as well, or will I need NPK?

And thanks over_stocked, I'll look into that. Right now my head is spinning a bit cuz I'm a newbie (at trying to do this right anyways)


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

ramlover22 said:


> I'm thinking of starting to use excel for one of my low tech planted tanks that just isn't working. However, I have been told that excel does not lower the ph like CO2 and I'm wondering if I should even bother. My ph is about 7.6 and the kh is 3. Will excel provide enough CO2 for my plants? Thanks


Keep in mind, Excel does not dose CO2. It doses a synthetic Carbon (not really, but thats the easist way to explain it) that assists with photosynthesis.

Be careful how you relay information. 




over_stocked said:


> I use Metracide 14 as an excel replacement. It is 2.6% Glutaraldehyde. I think Excel is 1.7 percent, so you can do 1 of two things, mix it with distilled water or dose less. I actually use it in my 75g tank with great success(and at this price it is affordable, will take a long time before I buy another regulator at this rate, though not AS good as co2, it works for my LT purpose).
> 
> I just use an excel bottle to keep it close, the gallon stays in a closet. I use the lid to dose, just like when I used excel.
> 
> I bought from here http://www.dealmed.com/Products/Surface-Disinfectants/Metricide-14-Day-1-Gallon By far the cheapest solution for 1 gallon of this. Do not use the activator that comes with it(you will understand when you get it).


Not really sure why you are giving a breakdown for Glutaraldehyde here? 

Why weaken the Excel dosing?? I think you are a bit off track here OS.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

ramlover22 said:


> Thank you. My lights are 1.5 watts/gal. If I dose the excel once a week after water change, can I do just the flourish once a week as well, or will I need NPK?
> 
> And thanks over_stocked, I'll look into that. Right now my head is spinning a bit cuz I'm a newbie (at trying to do this right anyways)


Stick to the basics. 

Dose excel daily if you can. It will not last that long.

NPK is not Excel. They are the standard macro fertilizers that plants utilize. Excel is a supplemental fertilizer used as a carbon supplement as you originally posted. It does not alter pH I believe.

Do not bother with Metracide 14. Stick to Excel.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Dummy me...

NPK

N - Notrogen
P - Phosphorous
K - Potassium


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## ramlover22 (Mar 6, 2010)

Excel is a carbon supplement - thanks for the language. I understand that by using the excel my plants will need more nutrients. I'm just wondering if I should just go by the Seachem dosing calculator for the macro nutrients or if I can just use the Flourish since it's low light.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

No Excel/C02 doesn't require you to use more ferts, light requires you to use more Excel/C02 and ferts think of Excel/C02 as a fert and it's less confusing.

You can start with the regular dosing scheme to keep Gatekeepers eye's in his head 

From my experience over the last few years with allot of low-light tanks I found that I could dial back the ferts and Excel to once a week or so and not see any difference in my Java Moss, Java Fern, Hornwort, Watersprite, etc than when I was dosing full tilt per the normal instructions. I'm just using T-8 Wal-Mart/Home Depot strip lights at least four to six inches off of the tanks.

You just need to experiment with your specific tank(s) to see what works for you.

- Brad


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

Do yourself a favor and get the dry fertilizer mix (e.g. from Green Leaves Aquarium). Unlike Flourish, the contains all the macro- and micro nutrients you need, and it's really easy to use. All you need is two separate plastic bottles. The 16oz ones are ideal.

I have a low-medium light tank and dose Excel every other day (full dose), and macro and trace each once a week. I also dose extra iron and some extra P...gives my Anubias a nice boost.


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## ramlover22 (Mar 6, 2010)

Thanks guys. Just needed a place to start! Here goes nothing!


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

Gatekeeper said:


> Do not bother with Metracide 14. Stick to Excel.


What makes you say that? What is the difference? There is alot of people who use it successfully. It last a long time when you buy it by the gallon and works amazing. From what people have gathered its only 1.5% Glutaraldehyde. But Seachem wont say much cause its a "trade secret".


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Fom wiki.



> As a strong disinfectant, glutaraldehyde is toxic and can cause severe eye, nose, throat and lung irritation, along with headaches, drowsiness and dizziness. It is a main source of occupational asthma among health care providers.


Not saying you should drink Excel, but it is alot safer to use and contact. For someone new to the hobby, keep it simple to start. Buying gallons of glutaraldehyde is just not something I would reccomend to someone who has just entered the hobby.

There is no trade secret. Seachem does not promote their product as an algacide. That is just a happy biproduct of using it.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Gatekeeper said:


> Not really sure why you are giving a breakdown for Glutaraldehyde here?
> 
> Why weaken the Excel dosing?? I think you are a bit off track here OS.


I must have not been clear. I meant that you can dilute the Metricide 14 with distilled water to be equal to excel, or like I do, you can just dose it at 100% and either use less metricide or dose more glutaraldehyde. 

Metricide contains the only active ingredient in Excel and would save the average user a TON. 

For instance...

2x2L of excel(just over 1 gallon, would run you 62 bucks(before shipping) from Big als. (just the first I chose, not sure if it is cheapest)

1x1 gallon of Metricide 14 is 24 bucks shipped for me, from DealMed

Now, assuming you dose it straight, 100%, not reduced at all, Metricide is 38% the cost of Excel. You would be paying 62% more for a lower concentration of Glutaraldehyde. 

Now, lets assume that you dilute it at a ratio of 1.5(Glutaraldehyde):1(distilled water) you end up with a percentage of 1.8% Glutaraldehyde--just over the excel level. This will make your 1 gallon of Metricide turn into 1 2/3 gallon(1.666) gallons of Excel equivalent. 

So, now, if diluted you would have the equivalent of about 100 dolars(before shipping) worth of Seachem Excel. On a 50 gallon tank, dosing at seachem dosing of 5ml per 50 gallons... you have 1261 doses... For 24 dollars. 

If you don't dilute it, but still dose 100%, you would have 757 doses(on a 50g tank) and be more concentrated. On my 75 gallon tank I dose 10ml daily/every other day of 100% metricide 14(2.7%). I have 378 doses in my bottle. 

The value is simple. 

All for 24 dollars shipped to my door and about 3 minutes of math.


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

Gatekeeper said:


> Fom wiki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its the same thing so pretty much if you do something dumb with excel you will expect the same results as with MetriCide 14. They tell you in every post asked about it that its a proprietary/trade secret what the ingredients are. Plenty of people have asked Tom as well what they are but he wont say cause he worked with them to come up with excel. I dont recommend them to buy gallons of it cause a gallon of it will last forever. I just dont see spending any more money then needed when you can get the same results. I rather see someone new to the hobby save money and use it on what is needed rather then waste it. Just like people tell everyone there is no need for there fertilizers when you can get the same thing at greenleafaquariums cheaper.



over_stocked said:


> I must have not been clear. I meant that you can dilute the Metricide 14 with distilled water to be equal to excel, or like I do, you can just dose it at 100% and either use less metricide or dose more glutaraldehyde.


+1 I just use it full strength and dose it like on Seachems site and so far everything has worked out great..


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Gatekeeper said:


> Fom wiki.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for providing us a very misleading post. You just refrenced the Wiki Page for Glutaraldehyde. 

Excel IS Glutaraldehyde. So how is it "alot safer to use and contact"?

To prove a simple point, look at the MSDS for Bleach. 

Now some excerpts:



> FIRST AID:
> Eye Contact: Hold eye open and rinse with water for 15-20 minutes. Remove
> contact lenses, after first 5 minutes. Continue rinsing eye. Call a physician.
> Skin Contact: Wash skin with water for 15-20 minutes. If irritation develops, call
> ...





> 7 - EMERGENCY FIRST AID PROCEDURES
> Skin: Wash skin with soap and water.
> Eyes: Flush with water for 15 minutes. If irritation persists, seek
> medical attention.
> ...


Which one is Metricide and which one is Bleach?

Now this:
Metricide:


> Hazardous Ingredients
> This product contains no hazardous components as defined in the
> OSHA Hazard Communication Standard (29 CFR 1910.1200).


Clorox Bleach:


> Hazardous Ingredients
> Ingredient Concentration Exposure Limit
> Sodium hypochlorite 5 - 10% Not established
> CAS# 7681-52-9
> ...



There is really no reason to be afraid of Metricide 14 in comparison to Excel, and the simple fact is SImple household bleach is more dangerous. 

Here is the MSDS for Metricide

To add fuel to fire, here is the MSDS for Seachem Flourish Excel 



> SECTION VI: HEALTH HAZARD DATA
> Route(s) of Entry: Inhalation, Skin, Eyes, Ingestion
> Health Hazards (Acute): Inhalation-Irritation to respiratory tract; Skin-Itching, pain; Eyes-Conjunctivitis;
> Ingestion-Moderately toxic
> ...


For the record, Metricide 14 is used in surgery suites as a sterilizer, and on surgical instruments.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

We should not be making any contact with Excel or metricide etc.
Do not smell fumes if you can smell it, it's too much.

It's frigging toxic and has warning labels for good reason, lots of toxicology studies for good reason.

It is a general biocide, it kills everything, not just algae or fish or plants in high enough doses.

Wash it off immediately. Paint thinner might not seem toxic either to wash with your hands in to get glue etc off of, but if you like health issues later on........go right ahead. Avoid contact at all cost, treat like an acid that will fry your skin.

I even wonder about using it a lot for home aquariums due to volatilization into the air creating human health issues. I'd use CO2 correctly, or perhaps this in small tanks, or are uses to help when CO2 is an issue.

If you are unsure, there's plenty of sound medical advice on google:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...q=glutaraldehyde+toxicity+&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## ramlover22 (Mar 6, 2010)

I just want to keep my plants alive. I need a simple start. I thought excel (or Metricide) tanks were more middle-of-the-road and a beginner has more room for error than with CO2 tanks.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> We should not be making any contact with Excel or metricide etc.
> Do not smell fumes if you can smell it, it's too much.
> 
> It's frigging toxic and has warning labels for good reason, lots of toxicology studies for good reason.
> ...


As a chemical I use daily at work, I understand that precautions should be taken. So long as you avoid contact with skin, and eyes and do not spill large quantities, you lungs are safe. Using it in a small room(when we clean ambulances with it we use respirators, because they are such a small space and we spray it liberally) at large quantities could be dangerous, but the research linked indicates significant long term usage and exposure might cause health problems. If you treat it like any other household chemical, ie do not drink it, do not sniff the bottle, rinse with copious water and do not use with children around, you will be safe. 

The concern with healthcare workers is the fact that in certain areas, it is used in heavy amounts and sprayed, thus aerosolizing the compound, meaning you are inhaling far more than just fumes. For our purposes of simply pouring into a tank, there is little time for it to cause significant problems. 

Like I said before... Simple bleach is dangerous too, so just follow common sense. Saying that excel is somehow safer than metricide 14 is simply wrong. If you have to use it, why not save some money in the process. 

The system I use to draw off of a large bottle is to use the original cap with a tiny hole in it, using an IV line set the feeds to the bottom. I then use a syringe with a blunt tip on it to access a port in the IV line set and draw off what I need. I then put the syringe under the surface and shoot it near the filter output. There is little time for it to come out in the air and little risk of contact with it. 

I would be happy to send people IV sets and syringes for the price of shipping to use for this or other dosing purposes. 









Will take a pic and show how I use mine.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

ramlover22 said:


> I just want to keep my plants alive. I need a simple start. I thought excel (or Metricide) tanks were more middle-of-the-road and a beginner has more room for error than with CO2 tanks.


They are. It is easy to use and safe so long as you don't do something stupid.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

What you see is a tubing going through a small hole in the cap(glued to seal) and then at the top, the med port is used to draw metricide out of the tubing. Below that is locked off so it does not leak. Kept in a closet, light will not degrade the product.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ramlover22 said:


> I just want to keep my plants alive. I need a simple start. I thought excel (or Metricide) tanks were more middle-of-the-road and a beginner has more room for error than with CO2 tanks.


 
Poor newbie, never knew what hit him!


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

over_stocked thats pretty cool idea roud: So once the air is out of the line does it stay out or do you have to draw the air out each time?


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## ramlover22 (Mar 6, 2010)

houseofcards said:


> Poor newbie, never knew what hit him!


Seriously! lol You hard-core plant people are scary! Though I have to say that I'm impressed with myself for keeping up. P.s. I'm a she :hihi:


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> I must have not been clear. I meant that you can dilute the Metricide 14 with distilled water to be equal to excel, or like I do, you can just dose it at 100% and either use less metricide or dose more glutaraldehyde.
> 
> Metricide contains the only active ingredient in Excel and would save the average user a TON.
> 
> ...


Hi over_stocked,

I am planning on ordering Metricide 14 to replace the Excel dosing. Right now I dose 10ml/day of Excell in my 55g. How much 100% Metracid do I need to dose to match the Excel dosing. Also do you know if it's safe to overdose Metricid a little? Thank you.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi over_stocked,
> 
> I am planning on ordering Metricide 14 to replace the Excel dosing. Right now I dose 10ml/day of Excell in my 55g. How much 100% Metracid do I need to dose to match the Excel dosing. Also do you know if it's safe to overdose Metricid a little? Thank you.


This is worthy of its own thread. Would be a shame to see this information getting lost inside another thread!


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi over_stocked,
> 
> I am planning on ordering Metricide 14 to replace the Excel dosing. Right now I dose 10ml/day of Excell in my 55g. How much 100% Metracid do I need to dose to match the Excel dosing. Also do you know if it's safe to overdose Metricid a little? Thank you.



10ml/day?



> On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 gallons*). *Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 gallons*) daily or every other day.* Dosing may be slowly increased in high-growth aquariums. For smaller dosing please note that each cap thread is approximately 1 mL.


I use 5ml/day on my 55 gallon. I really dont think you wanna use 10ml/day when using Metricide 14 cause its a little stronger.


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

Gatekeeper said:


> This is worthy of its own thread. Would be a shame to see this information getting lost inside another thread!



Would be nice to see this have a complete thread just dealing with Metricide 14. This way if anyone ask questions its easier to put them to a post where it may answer there questions. Or maybe the OP or a Mod might change the title if they say its ok.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

StillLearning said:


> Would be nice to see this have a complete thread just dealing with Metricide 14. This way if anyone ask questions its easier to put them to a post where it may answer there questions. Or maybe the OP or a Mod might change the title if they say its ok.


Ask and yee shall receive.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/f...104038-metricide-14-replace-excel-dosing.html


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

StillLearning said:


> 10ml/day?
> 
> 
> 
> I use 5ml/day on my 55 gallon. I really dont think you wanna use 10ml/day when using Metricide 14 cause its a little stronger.


OK. I just ordered a gallon and maybe I'll make a 1.5 Metricide :1 DI water. I think "over_stocked" posted that this will be a bit stronger than Excel.

Btw, one gallon of Excel is $ 60.00 shipped.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

StillLearning said:


> over_stocked thats pretty cool idea roud: So once the air is out of the line does it stay out or do you have to draw the air out each time?


Air stays out.


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## StillLearning (Dec 29, 2009)

barbarossa4122 said:


> OK. I just ordered a gallon and maybe I'll make a 1.5 Metricide :1 DI water. I think "over_stocked" posted that this will be a bit stronger than Excel.
> 
> Btw, one gallon of Excel is $ 60.00 shipped.


You save your self some money then 

over_stocked I like that idea alot. Im going to get my mom to grab me one from work lol. That was the only downfall of a gallon container but I was using a tube on the end of a syringe to take it out daily..


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## three105 (Nov 15, 2007)

Just buy excel in bulk. You can get the big handle bottles now.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

three105 said:


> Just buy excel in bulk. You can get the big handle bottles now.


Yes you can, and While I have derailed this thread completely, I should point out the whole point of what I said was that for about 25% off the cost of Excel, you can buy Metricide. Thus the reason people do. Even if money isn't an issue, why spend more for the same thing?


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

barbarossa4122 said:


> Hi over_stocked,
> 
> I am planning on ordering Metricide 14 to replace the Excel dosing. Right now I dose 10ml/day of Excell in my 55g. How much 100% Metracid do I need to dose to match the Excel dosing. Also do you know if it's safe to overdose Metricid a little? Thank you.


I have been using Metracide for quite a few months now. I have a 55 and dose 7ml daily (full strength)


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## itrack4u (Nov 16, 2009)

Aquarist_Fist said:


> Do yourself a favor and get the dry fertilizer mix (e.g. from Green Leaves Aquarium). Unlike Flourish, the contains all the macro- and micro nutrients you need, and it's really easy to use. All you need is two separate plastic bottles. The 16oz ones are ideal.
> 
> I have a low-medium light tank and dose Excel every other day (full dose), and macro and trace each once a week. I also dose extra iron and some extra P...gives my Anubias a nice boost.


Should I get just PMDD Pre-mix? Why 2 - 16 oz bottles?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

itrack4u said:


> Should I get just PMDD Pre-mix? Why 2 - 16 oz bottles?


From someone who uses PMDD with some serious additions, Don't. Get them all and dose EI. I do it because I have a very, very, very specific set of needs, but for most, it will end up causing problems. PMDD is an antiquated system, at best.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> From someone who uses PMDD with some serious additions, Don't. Get them all and dose EI. I do it because I have a very, very, very specific set of needs, but for most, it will end up causing problems. PMDD is an antiquated system, at best.


+1 to this recommendation. EI is much easier than PMDD or even PPS-Pro since there's no testing or gyrations, just measure out the ferts per the gallon recommendation and do the 50% water change. It really doesn't get easier than that. 

I used PPS-Pro when I first started out and it's a decent system but it's more work than it looks compared to EI your ferts are dosed allot leaner so you do more testing. I wouldn't even bother with PMDD myself, only crazy people or the mad scientist types use it 

- Brad


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

barbarossa4122 said:


> maybe I'll make a 1.5 Metricide :1 DI water.


Has anyone tried this ratio? or does someone came up with a new proportion that works well? 

Id like an idea to mix it with distilled water but have not came up to how much distilled water to mix with.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

> I would be happy to send people IV sets and syringes for the price of shipping to use for this or other dosing purposes.












PM sent.


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

ramlover22 said:


> Seriously! lol You hard-core plant people are scary! Though I have to say that I'm impressed with myself for keeping up. P.s. I'm a she :hihi:


Then you never dealt with dog show people. I think they are the scariest


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

I guess I am just cheaper than most. I purchase the 1 liter bottles of 50% biological grade Glutaraldehyde for $23.00. The hazardous material UPS charge plus fright was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters (8.8 gallons) of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter ($6.22 per gallon).


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I guess I am just cheaper than most. I purchase the 1 liter bottles of 50% biological grade Glutaraldehyde for $23.00. The hazardous material UPS charge plus fright was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration will allow me to make 33.333 liters (8.8 gallons) of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter ($6.22 per gallon).


Hi Seattle_Aquarist,

I did not get the 50% biological grade b/c I did not want to go through they trouble of diluting it. Maybe I will next time but, I still have one full gallon of M14.


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

why not just go for pressurized c02 at those prices?

cheaper and more effective in the long run


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

msawdey said:


> why not just go for pressurized c02 at those prices?
> 
> cheaper and more effective in the long run


Glut is "good" for algae.


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## msawdey (Apr 6, 2009)

pressurized co2 isnt? my biggest fear was overdosing excel.. or in this case "glut"


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

msawdey said:


> pressurized co2 isnt? my biggest fear was overdosing excel.. or in this case "glut"


Yes it is but, adding Glut helps a bit more in keeping the algae at bay. I am not against co2, actually I am waiting for the parts and instructions to built one.


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## Satirica (Oct 3, 2005)

Gluteraldehyde is wasted in a tank that is properly dosed and has CO2 injection. You don't need to kill algae as, correctly cared for, the tank has no algae.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Some folks still use expensive Excel...

..try Metricide 14. Read on!


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