# Mineralized soil review



## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

Maybe I'm not the best person to be giving any sort of "reviews" of methodology, but I figured I would debunk a few of the myths surrounding this substrate. Maybe they're not myths, but things I was told would happen when I first looked into purchasing this stuff. (yes I BOUGHT it instead of making it. Torpedobarb has much lower prices than ADA. what can I say lol)

first off what is the tank like?
75gal
pressurized Co2 (a lot of it)
mineralized soil obviously
dual 350gph canisters
inline reactor followed by fractioning impeller to mist any co2 that escapes the reactor. (I will be removing the reactor entirely soon, but I've been lazy)
very small UVS
inline Hydor 300W heater
4 x 54w Catalina T5HO lighting. 2x10hours all 4x4hours

What was I told? 

#1: Cloudy water: I've been told this about most every decent substrate I've tried. I think a lot of people don't understand the value of filling a tank slowly on first fill. (I also don't think most people understand the meaning of SLOWLY lol) I turn the python on and just let it literally trickle into the substrate for the first few inches of the tank, at which point I turn up the flow slightly. I've never had anything but crystal clear water from the get go with any substrate I've used this method on. On my mineralized tank, I even used 3M colorquartz UNRINSED and had zero issues with this.

#2 GREEN water: I was told a nice huge case of green water should be expected with this substrate as it settles in. (I've heard the same of most other nutrient rich substrates as well)

#3 Acclimation: I was warned that the tank would take a few months to start really perking up and looking nice, as the plants had to "get used to root feeding". I think I translate that as growing a large enough root system to pull all the nutrients from that location, vs. leaf surface. I'm not a botanist, so don't take that to heart.

#4 You won't have to dose anything: Yup. The major claim to fame with mineralized soil.

#5 and most important: Algae battles. Everyone I've talked to who has any experience with this substrate has told me it was NOT for beginners, as inevitable algae battles were sure to be on the horizon for at least a few months.

My experiences?

#1 I sort of already explained that. Just fill slow dummy. (and cap well)
#2 erm... I haven't had this issue, but I have a UVS (cheap $20 ebay one) installed that runs each night for a few hours.
#3 This bit is sort of true. SOME plants seem to take forever to get used to the idea, but all the plants I've tried have come back around and gone gangbusters. Rotala Mini "1" is the exception here, but it's started increasing growth a smidge in the past few days, so I'm still hopeful. I think the root system on these was very small (for a very small plant) when I got it and it's taking it forever to get through the very large cap of 3M colorquartz over the soil. But I digress, there may be a plant or two out there that just does not want to root feed. (macrandra grows fine for me, but hasn't colored up bright red quite yet. however, it is the last plant I put in and I keep forgetting that so the rest of them have a few weeks on this guy)
#4 this one is also slightly true. Aside from adding K (which I haven't had to do YET) once the supply in the soil runs out, you aren't supposed to have a need to dose anything. This is true. However, I do dose iron constantly in this tank. For me (and maybe I am way off here) you can never have enough Fe lol. I wanted to see what the colors of the L. Aromatica would do, so I dosed it as an experiment. It worked so I kept dosing. but no.... it's not needed.
#5 ALGAE BATTLES!!!! :eek5: okay... let me run down the list of all of the types of algae I've had in this very highly lit tank...

GDA

yup.... that's it. I had a dusting of GDA on the rocks, and glass and I simply wiped it off every week or so until I put the Oto's in the tank. Now I don't even have to do that part. I have seen not a SINGLE STRAND of any nuisance algae in this tank since day one. My water change "schedule" is shoddy at best. I forget to do them, I don't do them at all for a few weeks, but I do have a few theories as to why this tank has done well that I haven't shared until now, as I didn't want to throw ideas out there that had no merit.

#1 Good, constant, Co2. I cranked it ever so slowly until the fish showed stress signs, and backed off a smidge. Also, the flow pattern for this tank seems to get every inch of the tank covered, even through to the middle of the bushes of stems.

#2 UVS. I only have a very small one on the tank and I just stuck it on a timer to run a few hours at night. I don't know if it's actually helping, but oh well lol.

#3 light fishload. This tank is 75gallons and has 30 very small tetras swimming around in it.... that's it. no angels, or discus, or.... If I did have angels or something in the tank I'd remove a good portion of the schools to keep the fishload down. (also I have amanos, otos, MTS... all in all a decent cleaning crew in the tank that might be helping)

#4 maybe the most important? I make sure and dose copious amounts of Co2 to help the plants grow, then every day I add 5ml.... of excel. Yup. Office of Redundancy office, how may I help you? This is like a little miracle drug for planted tanks and I don't understand why people slam their heads into walls about which thing to dose, and run up calculators to figure out PPMs that might be causing algae, and never think to just buy a 2 liter bottle of this stuff and drop a cap full in every day ALONG WITH good Co2 injection. Cost is a factor of course, but if you buy Excel in big bottles online, it's not that bad. $30 every 6 months or so is not that shabby. Even if you don't do it for plant growth, it helps stave off algae, AND it's supposed to help iron become bioavailable quicker (or something) all around a good bang for your buck even if you already inject.

So... my thoughts? This substrate is (so far) the best I've tried FOR MY NEEDS. Not everyone likes the type and speed of growth you get in these tanks, but the results are great. (at least the best I've had for myself) I like being able to concentrate on plants and not PPMs. I don't think other people who used this substrate were doing things WRONG, as I've seen pictures of AaronT's tanks and they're simply gorgeous! However, he did have to go through a lot of algae headaches to get there, and I think maybe I did something that helped me get around that (probably on accident). 

If you got this far without pictures, I commend you. You are a cut above the average American lol So I'll reward you with the latest two pictures of the tank I'm talking about. (you can see all the pics and whatnot in my journal in the link at the bottom)



















there you are. questions, comments, flames are all good. Just putting my experiences out there.

all in all... this substrate gets the.....


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Gorgeous tank! Thanks for sharing your experiences. I think you did a great job of explaining what to expect from this type of setup. 

That's interesting that you've been dosing iron with no algae effects. How much iron are you dosing?

You could probably add more fish if you wanted to, especially with two filters running all of the time. I just make sure to gently sweep the top of the substrate when I do water changes with the python when I see too much debris accumulating on the bottom.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

nice work on this synopsis. and your tank is beautiful!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I can't see pics from work, but I'll check it out later at home.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Thanks for a great review. I see Mineralized Topsoil as being too controversial and so it is nice to see a review like this. Because of all the controvesy, I have put any plans to redo one of my 10 gallons with mineralized topsoil until I get a good handle on what other peoples' experienes are. For now, I have set up a couple of emersed setups that I will be flooding and decided to use ADA AS II instead of Mineralized Topsoil as I had some ADA AS II I had to use up and I ADA AS II has met and exceeded my expectations in the tanks I have previously set up using it. For me Mineralized Topsoil is still virgin territory and I would rather wait and see what others discover before plunging my self deep into the method. You have a fairly large tank. Perhaps, it is just coincidence but I wonder if this has contributed to your success, given that larger aquariums tend to be more stable in general and balance is more quickly achieved in such tanks, at least that is my experience. Also, it seems that most success stories I am reading about have to do with the use of Mineralized Top Soil or even plain potting soil on very large tanks 55+. I would be more curious to see if such success translates a mass to low tech and high tech tanks in the 3-10 gallon range.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jargonchipmunk said:


> #1 Good, constant, Co2. I cranked it ever so slowly until the fish showed stress signs, and backed off a smidge. Also, the flow pattern for this tank seems to get every inch of the tank covered, even through to the middle of the bushes of stems.


As long as you have some source of nutrients, this is 95% of the issues folks have. If you reduce and modify the light, which you can do since it's suspended lighting, then you can tweak even further.



> #2 UVS. I only have a very small one on the tank and I just stuck it on a timer to run a few hours at night. I don't know if it's actually helping, but oh well lol.


Might a bit, but you can likely no longer use it and see. No biggie, you can turn a switch on/off anytime if there's anything negative.



> #3 light fishload. This tank is 75gallons and has 30 very small tetras swimming around in it.... that's it. no angels, or discus, or.... If I did have angels or something in the tank I'd remove a good portion of the schools to keep the fishload down. (also I have amanos, otos, MTS... all in all a decent cleaning crew in the tank that might be helping)


This might be debatable. I have high loading and rich sediments without issues.



> #4 maybe the most important? I make sure and dose copious amounts of Co2 to help the plants grow, then every day I add 5ml.... of excel. Yup. Office of Redundancy office, how may I help you? This is like a little miracle drug for planted tanks and I don't understand why people slam their heads into walls about which thing to dose, and run up calculators to figure out PPMs that might be causing algae, and never think to just buy a 2 liter bottle of this stuff and drop a cap full in every day ALONG WITH good Co2 injection. Cost is a factor of course, but if you buy Excel in big bottles online, it's not that bad. $30 every 6 months or so is not that shabby. Even if you don't do it for plant growth, it helps stave off algae,


Certainly.
But this is really a CO2 issue, Excel is another item to add to help/get the CO2 dialed in prior. You might try using less light and Excel alone.
Use CO2 to get things grown in, then slow things down.

You can also gert DIY Excel from Alan.



> AND it's supposed to help iron become bioavailable quicker (or something) all around a good bang for your buck even if you already inject.


I have serious doubts about this claim. 



> So... my thoughts? This substrate is (so far) the best I've tried FOR MY NEEDS. Not everyone likes the type and speed of growth you get in these tanks, but the results are great. (at least the best I've had for myself) I like being able to concentrate on plants and not PPMs.


Amen!
Your focus has been much more on CO2 here. 



> I don't think other people who used this substrate were doing things WRONG, as I've seen pictures of AaronT's tanks and they're simply gorgeous! However, he did have to go through a lot of algae headaches to get there, and I think maybe I did something that helped me get around that (probably on accident).
> 
> 
> > It's not a question of right/wrong.
> ...


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

another neat thing about this system is that it's a better model of the dynamics of real aquatic plant ecosystems out in nature--how many real natural lakes have you seen that are lined with kitty litter and dosed with N,P,K & traces?

i wonder if mineralized top soil contributes any CO2 on its own, or if it no longer has this capacity because the organics have mostly been burned out(?). from what i remember of reading the Walsted book, the carbon dioxide produced as the organic matter in topsoil decomposes is an important advantage of using regular topsoil.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

jargonchipmunk said:


>


All in all, your stamp of approval gets:


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

I agree with everything you have said Jargon.
I don't have UV and I have had no green water...NON!
I have had GDA that I'm still dealing with.
I would like to add one observation too.
I was told that I better have my scape down pat or I'd get algae outbreaks with moving plants around. I've had non! I move plants all the time and just combine the moving of the plants with a water change.

also thanks for sharing your tank is stunning!


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

*Aaron* - I'll be honest here. It's something of a source of pride to hear you compliment my tank. It might be obvious by the setup of the plants in the tank but I loved your Rotala rainbow tank lol.

I actually LIKE a light fish load. I had some angels in the tank for a very short period and they always got in the way when I was trying to look at stuff in my tank lol. Sad to say, but I think I've gotten to the point where the fish are the extra, not the plants. (don't get me wrong I love my fishies! just added a couple GBR's a couple days ago)

As for the Fe... I have no clue what ppm's I'm adding. I used to dose by the ml of a liquid solution on my old tank. I just add the smallest spoon in my arsenal (erm... 1/16th I think?) of 10% powdered chelated Fe daily a few minutes after the excel. (to give the fish time to eat their flake before I toss the iron in the tank... they always try and eat it lol)

*Homer* don't be scuured! lol If I had a bag of ADA AS hanging about the house, I'd probably use it too. This substrate originally was a way for me to get away cheaper than buying that stuff, and I was moving into a new realm anyway (an actual scape) so I figured it was high time for an experiment. Larger tanks are always more stable than smaller ones, but I don't know if that has anything to do with anyone's "failure" in comparison to ADA AS, as that has its own can o' worms with leaching ammonia etc.

*TOM* - I think I finally understand it. Dosing is a religion for you lol. Just like a devout person it can't stop with you believing, you have to make me believe too. Don't worry I (and most other people reading this I'm sure) have done EL on a tank or two before, and had success with it. This method is not a replacement. I can see why some people might not even be happy with it, but I am. If I see any sorts of deficiencies in the plants, I'll certainly start dosing the water column, but in the meantime, I'll enjoy my tank sitting on my bedside letting my leopard geckos warm themselves on my hands. (soon to get a beardie too!  It just comes down to me taking a few minutes after work each day to relax and view, whereas I used to have to take those minutes to spoon out, mix, drip, clean algae, etc. The one thing I'd like to go ahead and focus on from your post is...



> whatever gets you there and adds the ferts.


 see there? *Tom Barr's official seal of approval for using sediment fertilization only methods!!!* bwahaha I love taking things out of context! thanks for the response Tom, I certainly take your advise to heart, and if this tank ever shows signs of a crash, I'll drag out my calculator, spoons, mixing bottles, and scales again. 

*Hydrophyte* I wouldn't really call this a model of anything too natural, but I guess it COULD be said to be a smidge closer to a lake than some other tanks. This "soil" is so far removed from normal soil anyway. 

I doubt the soil is adding Co2 of any appreciable amount. The mineralization process is there to remove all of the organics. Certainly nothing compared to the misting from my 20lb tank lol


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

*Colton* Thanks. I've followed your big tank with much enthusiasm as well. Mostly because we set up at about the same time I think and I wanted to see yours do well so I'd feel safer about mine haha.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

*epic* haha. thanks! If all my tanks miss the mark, at least my stamp got a stamp! WOOT!


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## smoq (Feb 19, 2008)

Great review, thanks. It gave me much to think about when I'll start my 75g mineralized. If this method is going to work for me, I'll definetely use it on all my future tanks. No offence to anyone who uses EI or any regular water column dosing, but it simply sucks for me. It just feel like your tank is a drug addict that will crash if not given his dose. Don't get me wrong, I saw many beautiful tanks using those methods so I know it works, but as jargonchipmunk said, I'd rather sit and enjoy my tank for a couple of minutes than worry about chemicals. 
One more thing, can you point me to that Alan DYI Excel thread? Thanks.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

hey marc, make the short trip down to KC and build me some stands lol


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## honor (Apr 8, 2008)

from this thread i will up my excel dosage.


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## smoq (Feb 19, 2008)

jargonchipmunk said:


> hey marc, make the short trip down to KC and build me some stands lol


You'll have to provide me with a fridge full of orange juices


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

done and done on the juice! 

oh and I'll take your comment *honor *as a compliment, although I'd hate for you to do anything based on my tank that might jeopardise your own tank (or fish) Seek advise of people more experienced than me before upping the dosage of excel. (you can do whatever you want, that's just my disclaimer lol)


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

hydrophyte said:


> i wonder if mineralized top soil contributes any CO2 on its own, or if it no longer has this capacity because the organics have mostly been burned out(?). from what i remember of reading the Walsted book, the carbon dioxide produced as the organic matter in topsoil decomposes is an important advantage of using regular topsoil.



CO2 is from the substrate is from bacteria metabolizing on organics. The organics are still there, just in a form that doesn't pump NH4 into the system too fast.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

hydrophyte said:


> another neat thing about this system is that it's a better model of the dynamics of real aquatic plant ecosystems out in nature--how many real natural lakes have you seen that are lined with kitty litter and dosed with N,P,K & traces?
> 
> i wonder if mineralized top soil contributes any CO2 on its own, or if it no longer has this capacity because the organics have mostly been burned out(?). from what i remember of reading the Walsted book, the carbon dioxide produced as the organic matter in topsoil decomposes is an important advantage of using regular topsoil.


Kitty liter is clay, we have acres upon thousand's of acres of aquatic plants growing well in clays..............that's why folk's used it, as well as ADA........ and we also have rich water column nutrients, same in Demark, same in CO2 rich springs etc.

You make a large error assuming about nature and implying it's better/worse.
This is NOT nature. This is horticulture.

I'd say the CO2 is very minor.
Think about it.......the CO2 is produced via aerobic respiration of organic matter, so for each CO2, you need an O2.

Since the max amount of O2 is going to be about 7, masybe 8-9 depending on time of day, you are really limited there relative to folks adding CO2 gas.
Then you need to exchange that O2 rapidly to do that.

But.......it's mineralized already...so the aerobic process already has been done, so it will not produce much CO2.........

You can get the % OM from a soil sample and then see how much is oxidized, then get that weight to see how much CO2 it can possibly generate. It does add a little, but not much, plants are more competitive for CO2 and in some strongly limited systems, this can help some species hang on etc, or do better, but we can easily add CO2..........

and if that is the goal and to add/increase growth, might as well as Excel or CO2 gas and be done with it. 





Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jargonchipmunk said:


> *TOM* - I think I finally understand it. Dosing is a religion for you lol.


Not even remotely close.



> Just like a devout person it can't stop with you believing, you have to make me believe too. Don't worry I (and most other people reading this I'm sure) have done EL on a tank or two before, and had success with it. This method is not a replacement. I can see why some people might not even be happy with it, but I am. If I see any sorts of deficiencies in the plants, I'll certainly start dosing the water column, but in the meantime, I'll enjoy my tank sitting on my bedside letting my leopard geckos warm themselves on my hands. (soon to get a beardie too!  It just comes down to me taking a few minutes after work each day to relax and view, whereas I used to have to take those minutes to spoon out, mix, drip, clean algae, etc.


I just suggested to enhance the method, not bother with this "supposed" arduous labor as is often implied/claimed. You *still* work so hard using CO2, K+ dosing etc, even horrible Fe dosing? You must use spoons, dosing calculators and all sorts of issues to add those as well?
I'm a lot more empirical than "belief". I do not ask that of anyone.
You are no different.



> see there? thanks for the response Tom, I certainly take your advise to heart, and if this tank ever shows signs of a crash, I'll drag out my calculator, spoons, mixing bottles, and scales again.


I never stated a crash was going to occur:wink:
Did I? Answer me that please?

Where is this assumption mill coming from? Religion has nothing to do with this, this is horticulture. 

It's not based on belief, it's based on testing it and see if your conclusions are in fact true, hold water, seem well thought out or have merit. It's not personal either. Some seem to imply that you have to do more "work", I'd say this is true with inert sediment methods vs sediment enrichment methods(I do agree a lot), but it really depends on what type, a non CO2 method, I dose once a week and never bother to do water changes. Some with CO2 and less light, then I can get away with month changes easily, or longer.........some use test kits to get around the water change issue.

I must really hate feeding fish too? I have dose daily to "feed them"
So hard to do?
What the heck.

Simply adding ferts to the water column does not imply EI or whatever.
You could do say a modified version, say 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 concentrations etc and go longer frequencies for water changes.

Since the sediment is the main source, the water column acts as a back up, and you could run it lean/or richer, depending on what you wanna do.
Water changes can be modified with several routines and a lot more if you do use sediment based ferts, ADA does this as well. They still stick with/suggest large weekly water changes however. But many go a month without also.

Or you could run it the other way and do more WC's and run it richer in the water column.

I do about 1/2 to 2/3 EI on the ADA tanks, lately, I've been going full EI since the sediment is about 16-18 months old. But I do skip water changes, no issues................I do not do anything more labor wise than you or anyone else using enriched sediments. I watch the plants. Garden, that's about all. No algae, no cleaning glass, no dosing calculators, no ppm tracking. A hose and water change makes it quick work when I do bother to get to a water change. CO2 is more important overall. 

Common sense tells you that plants will use less if the water column is also supplied and there is less transport issues, and to put the matter at rest, you already dose CO2, and other nutrients to the water column, so where is the trade off you claim to be getting here? You skip dosing two things but dose fish food, K+, CO2, Fe?? How again, is this supposedly much easier? 

I think it is fine to look at the sediment alone and the water column alone, but it's plainly obvious both methods work well and easily, so why not use both, since you are already, at least according to what you mentioned here, 80% the way there already with K+, CO2 and Fe?

Religion avoids the question and places the question into belief for support or just outright denial, Science does not, it tries to formulate a hypothesis and test the question. 

You have answered the question that suggested water column dosing works, and that sediment dosing + some water column dosing works, so ......................the next question would be adding some KNO3/KH2PO4 to see if the sediment+ water column dosing works and then you can fairly judge.

These are hardly "new" questions, but they are "new" to many folks. 
This same type of topic has come up several times over the years.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

Jargon,

Thanks for the write up. Your tank is already looking good, it is going to look fantastic once it grows in a bit!

Strange that R. mini is being problematic, but macrandra isn't, seeing as R. mini is almost certainly a mutant form of macrandra

My question for you: what differences, if any, have you noticed in plant growth using this method? Are you seeing differences in growth rates, coloration, root growth, internodal spacing?


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

Tank looks great! glad it is working out well for you.

BTW - Thank you for the chuckle. I've had this image in my head....

"Have you accepted EI as your lord and savior"?...

And I can't stop cracking up!


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Tank looks incredible. Every time i see these tanks with the mineralized soil its making me a big believer of this method.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

*Tom* you take too many things to heart. It was meant to be a joke, just chuckle and get on with it. I've seen your tanks, and as far as I'm concerned I couldn't really give a hoot who doses what, or uses what substrate. I'm not "in it to win it". Just here 'cause I have a tank that I like to look at and a lot of people gave me help along the road, so I'm giving back my experiences. 

oh and as for the spoons, dosing calculators, etc... nope. a capful of excel because they recommended 1.5 capfuls, and a "nip" of Fe because.... that was the smallest spoon I had lol. I used to do the calculators, etc so I already know what might be safe and my current "dosing" is a mere guess and change scenario based on the plants. I don't dose K by the way. I will someday I'm sure, but not yet. I will not add N/P to the water column (via powders) simply because I don't need it, and for some people.... that is enough. If you stopped dosing your tanks, I'd be dissapointed I think. I'm not trying to convince you NOT to dose, just tell these folks that there is another way. If a scientific viewpoint were all you were offering you'd be able to make at least one post that simply stated, "Hey look. Mineralized soil works well the way you're doing it because I can see the results." ...without adding anything afterwards. That's what we call... an agenda lol. 

*minsc* I believe the difference between the mini and the macrandra, etc... is the roots. The mini came to me as very small plants with very small roots, so I couldn't plant it very deep. The macrandra was a different story. I shoved that sucker all the way down into the mineralized soil beneath the cap, so it had a bit of a headstart being down in the thick of it.

Plant growth differences... the growth speed is slower but I would say only by a smidge. Look at my journal at the pics of L. Aromatica (right side obviously) from March 22 to April 20th. The other plants received a major trim (almost to the ground) about midway between those two dates, so you can't really see their growth rates. 

*BEFORE*








*AFTER*









Root growth I wouldn't really know much about. I haven't pulled any plants from this substrate yet that were there for more than a few days.

Internodal spacing in this tank is tighter than my former tanks, but I attribute that to the lighting, not the substrate.

Coloration? I'm getting some nice reds, and the greens are as green as they should be, so I guess it's good. I wouldn't say better or worse than a different method on the coloration, as I've seen L. Aromatica just as red as mine in a fully dosed tank, and I've seen countless pics of people's Macrandra that looks just like mine and won't color up lol. The way I see it, so many plants work for me in this stuff that if one or two won't cooperate, I'll replace them with something that will before I'll change my strategies based on one out of a dozen plants I like.

*ingg* thanks for the comments on the tank, I'm glad people can enjoy it through pictures. (psst. it's better in person lol as most tanks are I'm sure)

Just as a side note, that comment was NOT a bash on religions of any sort. I'm a very religious person myself, so I don't want anyone taking from this that I'm poking fun at their choice of deity. (even if it is Tom :-D )


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

*gmccreedy* why thank you.  The tank looks the way it does because of countless hours pouring over this site and others trying to figure out how to do it. It's still not "there" yet but it's getting somewhere in the ball park!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jargonchipmunk said:


> *Tom* you take too many things to heart.


Perhaps. Then again, it's less personal in most ways to me. 



> If you stopped dosing your tanks, I'd be dissapointed I think.


Oh, but I already have stopped. Dry start......No dosing, heck, no water changes, easiest start up there is. It uses pure unadulterated nutrient rich sediment only. I also have several non CO2 tanks going which do not dose anything, well not 100% accurate, fish food counts. 



> I'm not trying to convince you NOT to dose, just tell these folks that there is another way.


If you suggested I try some method, gave some sort of rational as to why that's even somewhat plausible.......I would try it and then see. That's how a method is Expanded and Enhanced. Like the old CO2 or non CO2 choice.......you might be okay with non CO2, or many will never bother go all CO2. Depends on the goal. 

Same thing here. Some might use the same trade offs you mention with it also for CO2/non CO2.

There is another way as you put it.
Obviously adding CO2 enhances plant growth.
The trade might be worth it for you or others.
Same thing here with adding things to the water column as well as the sediment.

I support both locations of nutrients, not just one.
Pretty for the same reasons I support both non CO2 and CO2 enriched methods. I am glad you like enriched sediments honestly and that it's working well for your goals. 



> If a scientific viewpoint were all you were offering you'd be able to make at least one post that simply stated, "Hey look. Mineralized soil works well the way you're doing it because I can see the results." ...without adding anything afterwards. That's what we call... an agenda lol.


I've stated that mineralized soil works well, going pretty far back. 
Your tank does looks nice, interesting rocks and grain on them, and you have achieved your goal(?). I've said it's a viable method, no debate there. My comments here are interested in enhancing a method, and seeing the trade offs(this is a path you may or may not take). Not whether the method itself as described, can be "done well" or not.

This method is virtually identical to the one done several years(about 10 now) ago using Vladimir Simoes' method. It works very well also. Same type of thing. Used a faster method for ridding of the higher NH4 and % organic matter(worm castings and boiling vs mineralization for a few weeks). Not everyone is patient. 

I've had this discussion in the past.

I am as you put it, a rich sediment "zealot" every bit as much as water column doser, or a CO2 zealot, or a Dry Start method zealot, or a non CO2 method Zealot, low light zealot .......lots of "agenda" there huh?
Testing, enhancing a method, trying different methods and mastering them is hardly "agenda" however. It's learning new things. 



> I've seen countless pics of people's Macrandra that looks just like mine and won't color up lol. The way I see it, so many plants work for me in this stuff that if one or two won't cooperate, I'll replace them with something that will before I'll change my strategies based on one out of a dozen plants I like.


You might consider less light, but that's a trade off, the best R macandra I've ever grown and also ever seen was grown in lower light. The point is that the method you use here was used for that(Neil's R mac was pot soil grown), so it's not the method of soil, it's the method of light/CO2 etc........

Yes, it's a trade off, many like higher light, some like lower, some do a high light burst and meet in the middle.

I'd agree with the plant change vs the other changes.
500 choices to pick from. But it's always nice to be able to grow anything you wish and also control the rates of growth. Aesthetics play into it a lot.



> Just as a side note, that comment was NOT a bash on religions of any sort. I'm a very religious person myself, so I don't want anyone taking from this that I'm poking fun at their choice of deity. (even if it is Tom :-D )


I'm no different than any other hobbyist and am quite human. People should be careful not putting others on pedestals. I never asked for it, expected nor deserve it. 

Your scaping skills have improved as result of the method BTW.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

For me, to really get a good understanding of a method and identify clearly what combination of variables contribute to success I would need to set up several tanks with identical stocking levels, fish, plants. For instance, with minearlized topsoil, I could just set up a tank with mid or moderate lighting, blast it with c02, do no water column dosing, and stock generously. But then, if I experienced success, I have to seriously ask myself, was there an over-riding factor or factors that contributed to the success. It could well boil down to the C02 injection as being the difference maker more than anything else or perhaps the combination of light intensity and c02. To get to the root of what may have been the difference maker, I would have to test another same sized tank, with no c02 injection or lower lighting for comparison purposes. I am not putting this or any other method down, but just saying that you have to be careful of cause and effect relationships to explain things because it may be easy to point to a cause and effect relationship based on one variable, but that does not been it is a God given truth or scientific fact. To that end, I am going to be watching other members' mineralized topsoil setups to see how they progress over several years, before drawing any conclusions about the method. And I will also be doing a hybrid method - emersed and then flooding using mineralized topsoil, just out of curiosity to see what happens. I will refrain from using pressurized c02 but may do DIY c02 with 20 watts for the 10 gallon tank and excel dosing just to see.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

my main problem with getting into trying to "fully" understand methodology, (I've done EI with a few different substrates in my early days with some success, as well as DIY Co2, and pre-mixed ferts on my first tank [got tired of that real quick] and a few other things for short periods) is that I live in an apartment. That, and I don't WANT a million tanks. At this point I have only ONE planted tank. I used to have a few, but I downsized to only this one and I'm happy with my choice. When I buy a house, I might look into having a second 75 (did I mention I think 75gallons is the perfect planted tank size?)

I have another "planted" tank I guess, but it's there for my Kribs, and all the different mosses growing in it are just to help them feel safe and let the babies have places to hide/eat infusoria. I do "scape" the mosses, but just for fun lol. no dosing/Co2 or anything and the mosses look great.

anyway... yeah. I guess my point is that this thread shows that a lush tank CAN be had with little/minimal dosing at least in my circumstance. People will dose, or not dose based on their goals, and my personal ones have been met. If someone else's goals are the same, then maybe they want to try this out as well.

I'm certainly no guru. :thumbsup:


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

jargonchipmunk said:


> my main problem with getting into trying to "fully" understand methodology, (I've done EI with a few different substrates in my early days with some success, as well as DIY Co2, and pre-mixed ferts on my first tank [got tired of that real quick] and a few other things for short periods)* is that I live in an apartment. That, and I don't WANT a million tanks. At this point I have only ONE planted tank.* I used to have a few, but I downsized to only this one and I'm happy with my choice. When I buy a house, I might look into having a second 75 (did I mention I think 75gallons is the perfect planted tank size?)
> 
> I have another "planted" tank I guess, but it's there for my Kribs, and all the different mosses growing in it are just to help them feel safe and let the babies have places to hide/eat infusoria. I do "scape" the mosses, but just for fun lol. no dosing/Co2 or anything and the mosses look great.
> 
> ...


I know exactly where you are coming from living in a 2 bedroom condo with limited space for tanks. I wasn't knocking you or anything. I love your tank and if anything I am quite jealous of your success. I also wasn't dissing the mineralized topsoil method. I was just saying that substrate may only be one component of having a beautiful tank. There is a local in my city whose apartment is chalk full of tanks(ranging from 20 gallons to 55+). His substrate of choice is pool filter sand. He barely fertilizes and his tanks are fully stocked with a variety of algae eating critters. He injects no c02 at all, not even DIY c02. His lighting is dual T5 corallife fixture. I can honestly tell you his tanks are 100% algae free, he trims plants weekly, and his tanks equal the beauty of some of the mineralized topsoil tanks that I have seen. Point: a totally different method with comparable results. In fact, his tanks are the envy of all the other locals in the city.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

my tank took off like mad when I first started it up.. now it is doing well still but not as nice as yours is. I believe that I had the co2 down too low and the lighting out of wack. I recently had some custom legs made for the fixture to get it about 8.5" off the surface of the water. 10hr photoperiod with 5hr burst. started dosing extremely small amounts of macros and micros every few days. I believe that some of my problem was when I started this tank up I only had enough soil for about 1/4" deep. that isn't deep enough. I am going to be redoing the tank here soon and will be mixing the sediment with the 3m sand to about 2.5" deep and top off with another inch or so. this way the plants get to the nutrients much easier without having to root completely to the bottom to get the nutrients. 

J you need to set me up with some of those stems when you do a trim! especially some of that macrandra!   seriously!


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Thanks for this thread. I followed your tank build and enjoyed reading your experience's and comments posted for consideration. I think the tank filled in great :thumbsup:


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

torpedo, I missed that post. oops. I actually yanked all the Macrandra a few days ago. It grew okay I guess, but the speed of growth was throwing off my trimming schedule. I've moved a few things around and I think it'll come out even better. I'll snap some pics when it grows out from the uber yank-n-trim I did.


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