# warning for osmocote peoples



## Hyzer

True story. I had some issues in my 10g with Osmocote (not buried deep enough), sand, and trumpet snails.

But...I've never tested anything as extreme as you. Are you sure there weren't other factors? Is this a new tank?

Still love the stuff though. I put it below 1" of peat and 2" of Flourite in my 40g and it is working out great. Shrimp and otos happy, healthy.


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## happi

Hyzer said:


> True story. I had some issues in my 10g with Osmocote (not buried deep enough), sand, and trumpet snails.
> 
> But...I've never tested anything as extreme as you. Are you sure there weren't other factors? Is this a new tank?
> 
> Still love the stuff though. I put it below 1" of peat and 2" of Flourite in my 40g and it is working out great. Shrimp and otos happy, healthy.



maybe i added too much of the osmocote. the tank has been set up for more than 1 year and i think i have enough bacteria in the filters. some of the plants looks burnt, i think due to high ammonia. 

is there anything else i could do to remove the ammonia at faster rate.


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## mistergreen

happi said:


> is there anything else i could do to remove the ammonia at faster rate.


water change.


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## OverStocked

How much osmocote did you add, and did you use osmocote or osmocote plus?

I ask, because osmocote plus in moderation should not cause problems. I have tested RootMedic which is nearly identical with a longer lasting membrane at ridiculously high levels and never had spikes that high. 

If you did not use osmocote plus, it is much higher in total amounts of ammonium. 

If your test kit is not calibrated, the readings you've provided mean little, though. These are extreme ends of the tests that are far from accurate. 


I would investigate further and do many water changes.


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## Hyzer

Are you talking about in addition to water changes?

If so, some products claim to "detoxify". I use Seachem Prime as my water conditioner. A little bit goes a long ways, which is nice. On the bottle it reads:
_Prime removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank's biofilter... Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them._

I would not use this product in place of water changes, but rather in addition to.


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## happi

it was still showing high even after changing 60% of the water, it cant be either ro/tap water because i used the same water for my nano tank and the results were good on that tank. 

could it be some rotted plants? could it be filter hoses which you can see the algae on them inside? rex style co2 reactor which also might be filled with some algae?

i use stress coat as my water conditioner and i don't use carbon or anything else.

i use osmocote plus, i just went to petsmart and they used those API sample for nitrate and ammonia and the sample was green, above 8.0.


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## Hyzer

Rotting plants and algae is not your issue. At this point I'm picturing you taking off the cap and pouring Osmocote in the tank.:eek5:

Hopefully you have taken out all fish or shrimp by now. Remove Osmocote then do as many water changes as necessary...


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## sewingalot

I have some osmocote plus in the house. I am going to put some in a glass and measure the water tomorrow. I am intrigued.


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## kevmo911

sewingalot said:


> I have some osmocote plus in the house. I am going to put some in a glass and measure the water tomorrow. I am intrigued.


So am I, actually. Please post your results (and be as specific as possible with amount added and water volume)


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## happi

that would be nice if you could get the test results. can you try 2 tests, one without breaking the osmocote balls and then try one with crushing the osmocote balls. i wonder how much of difference it would make.


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## Hyzer

happi said:


> that would be nice if you could get the test results. can you try 2 tests, one without breaking the osmocote balls and then try one with crushing the osmocote balls. i wonder how much of difference it would make.


 A huge difference. Crushing the balls immediately releases all the the contents which will then dissolve very quickly. Perhaps this was your problem?


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## sewingalot

I'll restart the test with three glasses. One with them crushed, one without and one glass of water. I've got a bunch of water bottles around here that I recycle. I'll use them. I'll take pictures later after I set it up. Sound good? I'll also use the same amount of omoscote pellet ball thingies. High tech terminology.


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## happi

Hyzer said:


> A huge difference. Crushing the balls immediately releases all the the contents which will then dissolve very quickly. Perhaps this was your problem?


no i did not crush them to use them in my tank. my friend keep them in his filter and there is no problem in the water, however he does not crush them. slow release of nutrients in the water and his tank is low light no co2, its working fine for him.


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## happi

sewingalot said:


> I'll restart the test with three glasses. One with them crushed, one without and one glass of water. I've got a bunch of water bottles around here that I recycle. I'll use them. I'll take pictures later after I set it up. Sound good? I'll also use the same amount of omoscote pellet ball thingies. High tech terminology.



thanks

not sure how much of amount you will be adding to the water though. maybe 1 tsp of osmocote per 1 gallon of water.


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## sewingalot

I just finished crushing up some. I had to start over twice. Did you know osmocote can fly across the room at a incredibly high rate of speed if you hit it just right with a spoon? :hihi: I put in 1/8 teaspoon in two 16.5 oz of tap water. I shook them up and am letting them sit for 30 minutes. One thing I noticed right away with the crushed ones is the water got cloudy immediately and a lot of the little coatings float.


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## OverStocked

happi said:


> no i did not crush them to use them in my tank. my friend keep them in his filter and there is no problem in the water, however he does not crush them. slow release of nutrients in the water and his tank is low light no co2, its working fine for him.


This is a method I would not recommend. They will deplete very quickly. Osmocote is a product designed to be normally dry, sometimes wet. When wet all the time, it will release nutrients much quicker. NO where near the 6 month mark it would normally last. 

I would suspect the nutrients are depleted after less than a few weeks when placed in the filter. 

Sewingalot--is your test kit calibrated? that will help show people here results that are meaningful. 

I have a huge pile of tests relating to this, but I am at work till tomorrow morning and don't want to misquote something until I can look at my notes.


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## sewingalot

Okay, here are the results from 30 minutes (approximately). Sorry it took so long to upload. I had to stop to take care of some dishes. Look at the mess in the background, lol. :biggrin:

Amount put into two of plastic bottles:









Crushing:









Left (tap water), Middle (crushed osmocote), Right (whole pieces):









Left (crushed), Middle (whole) Right (tap)









Closeups:









Crushed (I can't really tell - definitely darker than 1.0)









Whole (not 0, but not yet .25 - definitely has green tint):









Tap (0, yellow as yellow gets with this test):










So, I believe it could definitely be the result of the osmocote, Happi. I'll update the test results tomorrow after work if anyone is still interested and continue for a while if anyone cares, lol.

Overstock, not everyone is an expert on Osmocote, nor has a stake in this type of experiment like you. I have nothing to gain or loose. I'm just a hobbyist.

Tests done with API test kits, Canon point and shoot at auto everything with flash turned off.


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## Sharkfood

I've had those balls come up out of the substrate in my main tank before. Honestly, I never worried about it. I didn't remove them either. Then again I did get a small outbreak of staghorn a month or two back which could indicate there was detectable ammonia in the tank.

8ppm ammonia is insane. I'd think you'd be able to smell it in the room.

I throw osmocote right into my fluval chi fountain without bothering to bury it. There's no fauna in that tank though, other than pond snails. Pond snails just laugh at ammonia.

I'm glad you took the time to test Sewing. Honestly though, thats alot of osmocote in relatively little water. Still, measureable ammonia in only 30 minutes is something to think about.


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## sewingalot

Yeah, its a lot of osmocote in comparison. I just make a decision on an amount. I can always repeat the test later on with less amounts of product. I just like to play around with test kits.


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## OverStocked

sewingalot said:


> Overstock, not everyone is an expert on Osmocote, nor has a stake in this type of experiment like you. I have nothing to gain or loose. I'm just a hobbyist.
> 
> Tests done with API test kits, Canon point and shoot at auto everything with flash turned off.






When I suggested I would show some results I had received in the past, I was only offering to show more results with several other variables(plants, etc). 
They are similar in characteristics to your results, but the numbers are slightly different as they are done on different size samples(water and fertilizer) and done by a lab so that the levels are precise. I did all of this while looking for the best membrane product out there. 

The trouble with the information provided by the OP is that we're missing some key info. Particularly, how long the fish were dead in the tank(an hour..., two, over night?) as they would contribute to a high amount of ammonia. If the membrane was not crushed, I do not see how you could get to 8ppm of ammonia in a tank with any plants in it--without having grossly overdosed. 

Remember, our test kit tests for ammonia and ammonium, ammonium being the product likely released from the fertilizer membranes. Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia, especially in pH under 7.5. Plants uptake ammonium at a rather high rate, and ammonia at a pretty high, but not as fast of rate. 

Discussion and experimentation by hobbyists is what moves this hobby forward. Taking the initiative to do this is great for the hobby.


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## OverStocked

sewingalot said:


> Yeah, its a lot of osmocote in comparison. I just make a decision on an amount. I can always repeat the test later on with less amounts of product. I just like to play around with test kits.


Not as much as you might think! Tom Barr and HOppy both suggested putting layers of osmocote down as thick as 1/8 thick covering the entire bottom of a tank...


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## sewingalot

I have read the sticky on calibrating test kits. Been there, done that. If I want super accurate results, I'll pay some obscene amount of money to a lab and get it done there. This is just something I am doing for the fact I found it interesting.

What I am not really interested in is getting into a discussion over your product. If you want to discuss your product, find someone who wants to participate. I hate to be blunt, but I really don't care about what you are selling or if it is osmocote. Furthermore, if you were to decide to start selling pond snails and rename them Medic snails, I could care less. Your product has NOTHING to do with my simple little weekend experiment.

With that said, I will not discuss this further. Period.


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## MrMoneybags

uhoh...this conversation again :icon_roll
anywhoo...

@OP...how big is your tank...and how many OS pellets are "some"
I use OC+ in my tank and have never had these type of problems...but I do put mine almost to the bottom glass pane...I have had some string algae appear for 1-2days...but never any noticeable amm. spikes (though I dont kno for sure because my fish never showed any distress symptoms, so I didnt test)

@Sewingalot
since OC is temp related...what temp are you testing at?


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## OverStocked

Can you give us an idea of how much you put into your tank? That is something we haven't gotten a clear answer to, that I am seeing. How many of your diy capsules? 

What do your tests look like now?

Assuming the water is not abnormally hot or abnormally cold, the temp is pretty minimal in significance. If the temp is higher than 90 or lower than 50, the results would only be faster or slower. The overall result would still be the same.


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## sewingalot

The temperature is reading 70 from the tap and it is 72 in the house. So somewhere around this, Mrmoneybags. I didn't think to test the temperature. Good idea. I have read that temperature does cause it to break down at different rates.


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## happi

over_stocked said:


> When I suggested I would show some results I had received in the past, I was only offering to show more results with several other variables(plants, etc).
> They are similar in characteristics to your results, but the numbers are slightly different as they are done on different size samples(water and fertilizer) and done by a lab so that the levels are precise. I did all of this while looking for the best membrane product out there.
> 
> The trouble with the information provided by the OP is that we're missing some key info. Particularly, how long the fish were dead in the tank(an hour..., two, over night?) as they would contribute to a high amount of ammonia. If the membrane was not crushed, I do not see how you could get to 8ppm of ammonia in a tank with any plants in it--without having grossly overdosed.
> 
> Remember, our test kit tests for ammonia and ammonium, ammonium being the product likely released from the fertilizer membranes. Ammonium is much less toxic than ammonia, especially in pH under 7.5. Plants uptake ammonium at a rather high rate, and ammonia at a pretty high, but not as fast of rate.
> 
> Discussion and experimentation by hobbyists is what moves this hobby forward. Taking the initiative to do this is great for the hobby.


can you please explain the difference between ammonium and ammonia, this came to my mind also before you posted it but i thought they both were same. i wonder if ammonium is giving the results in the test kits, because most of my fishes seems fine since last 2 days, if ammonia was really at 8ppm am sure i would have lost almost all of them by now. if ammonium is toxic for fish, what levels are consider toxic. is it possible that test kits are seeing ammonium as ammonia?

i don't remember how much i added in my tank but it was no more than 1 cup in my 50g. but most of it is buried under sand substrate and there were few on the top here and there, but not much. 

thanks for the test results


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## MrMoneybags

ammonia NH3 (neutral)
ammonium NH4+ (cation)

in general....soil is negatively charged...the cations (potassium, iron, ammonium...etc) "stick" to the faces of teh soil because of the charge

...plant roots give off a H+ ion to the soil face in exchange of the cation they want/need

also...they self regulate themselves
in an acidic solution (excess H+), theres less ammonia, more ammonium...but in a basic (low H+ concentration) theres more ammonia, less ammonium


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## OverStocked

Ammonia is significantly more water soluble than ammonium, but as pH increases ammonia becomes more toxic. At lower pH, ammonia binds with HCL to form ammonium(I am shooting form the hip right now so I might not be sayhing this exactly right). 

Ionized NH4(ammonium) is MUCH less harmful to aquatic life. 

Here is an article that does a fairly good job of explaining this in terms simple enough even I can understand it... You should not have any problem... 
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/CropNews/2008/0421JohnSawyer.htm


Worth noting:


> The laboratory method used for analysis of water measures ammonium-N plus ammonia-N. It is very difficult to directly determine the activity of aqueous ammonia, so instead the surrogate of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N is used, and then tabled values of ammonium-N plus ammonia-N are used to determine if a measured concentration will provide ammonia at a level that is detrimental to aquatic organisms, for acute and chronic conditions. These tabled values are a surrogate since the measured concentration is a total of the ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, and the concentrations in the tables for chronic or acute levels are set to reflect back to likely concentrations of ammonia-N for specific water pH and temperature.


A little more complicated, but addressing toxicity:


> The acute and chronic criteria for “ammonia” have been established for Iowa streams designated for aquatic life uses (Chapter 61, Iowa Administrative Code; tables 3a, 3b and 3c). One has to carefully use the tables as the listed concentrations are for ammonium-N plus ammonia-N, not ammonia-N (the header to the tables says “ammonia”). As expected, chronic criteria (ammonium-N plus ammonia-N concentration) are higher for low pH and low temperature water (ex. pH 6.5 at 0 degrees C is 6.67 mg N/l, early life stages present) and lower for high pH and high temperature water (ex. pH 8.0 and 26 degrees C is 1.16 mg N/l). Similarly, acute criteria are higher for low pH water (ex. at a pH of 6.5 the criteria for class B (WW1-3) and B(LW) is 48.8 mg N/l) and lower for high pH water (ex. at a pH of 8.0 is 8.4 mg N/l).


So... what does this all mean.... Lots... 

I am very suspicious that something else contributed to the ammonia test reading. Certainly the osmocote could have contributed, but it seems like you did everything right. 1 cup is a lot, but if it is buried, it isn't that much. LIke I said, Tom Barr even suggests coating the entire bottom pain of glass with it... That is a lot!

Sorry for possibly over-complicating this, but with a little digging we can find some really useful info here. The tests sara did are very useful, as they show the difference in a few variables. One test I think she should compare is a cup full of the same water with the osmocote below a substrate. different substrates provide remarkably different results.


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## Hoppy

over_stocked said:


> Not as much as you might think! Tom Barr and HOppy both suggested putting layers of osmocote down as thick as 1/8 thick covering the entire bottom of a tank...


Not me! I suggested a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of the substrate, not an 1/8 inch of it, which I would call a huge amount. Now, I hope I'm right about that :biggrin:

I have a 8 gallon nanocube tank sitting right in front of me that was set up with a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of a layer of MTS, several weeks ago. No algae problem, no fish problems.


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## OverStocked

Sorry I misspoke! 

Sent from my DINC


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## sewingalot

Day two results:

Left to right (Tap 0, Whole .5 - 1.0, Crushed 1.0 - 2.0)


















I accidentally deleted the other pictures, but the yellow gives you the scale if you like.

My thoughts are the initial spike was from the osmocote surfacing, but the 8.0 readings were probably with the dead fish or something else put into the combo. After all, I am not getting quite yet 2.0 and I don't have plants to absorb the excess.


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## OverStocked

That sounds like a pretty accurate assessment of this. I too suspect a small initial spike from when put in, that honestly shouldn't have harmed your fish... however, if they were weak in any way(it can be really hard to tell with fish) they would have succumbed to the ammonia and particularly high nitrate(which I do not understand, as of now). 

It is possible when you put them in you mixed up some organics that started decaying further as well. I think the only way you could get an ammonia level of 8 is from the decaying fish though, as sara's test shows spike but not nearly that high, even in the crushed capsules. 

Interesting though. Our tanks are such tiny worlds that things really can change things fast. A few connected or even unconnected events can wreak havoc on our tanks in such a short time it leaves us in panic trying to pick up the pieces. 

I would say the most important thing for your particular tank is to do things slowly. Only put a few capsules in at a time over the course of week(s). ALso, I put them in my tanks during water change, mainly because I keep my arms dry, but also because it gives a new volume of water to dilute any organics and such I might be stirring up. 


Later this week I will do a similar test that shows the comparison with substrates(a few different types) in place.


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## OverStocked

Here are your pics, side by side for comparison(in reverse, I think):


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## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> Not me! I suggested a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of the substrate, not an 1/8 inch of it, which I would call a huge amount. Now, I hope I'm right about that :biggrin:
> 
> I have a 8 gallon nanocube tank sitting right in front of me that was set up with a very thin layer of Osmocote at the bottom of a layer of MTS, several weeks ago. No algae problem, no fish problems.


+1

I never said more than thin layer,

1/8"???

Where have I said dat?

A thin layer, maybe 5 grams per sq ft. This is not enough to even make full coverage of the bottom in a uniform way.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

If the tank has a good filter and also have good plant growth, you should not ever measure any NH4.

So over say 4-6 weeks, there should be little to no NH4 due to the bacterial filter.........

Same with folks that do the Fishless cycling...........they add lots of NH4.........and it's converted to NO3 over time.
Water changes, more filtration, etc.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## OverStocked

Obviously I misred or misunderstood something someone said. 

None the less, this doesn't change the results we've found here. 

Sent from my DINC


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## happi

plantbrain said:


> If the tank has a good filter and also have good plant growth, you should not ever measure any NH4.
> 
> So over say 4-6 weeks, there should be little to no NH4 due to the bacterial filter.........
> 
> Same with folks that do the Fishless cycling...........they add lots of NH4.........and it's converted to NO3 over time.
> Water changes, more filtration, etc.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


hi tom, 

some of my plants seems to be growing much better since the ammonia went that high, however some of the plants were looks like they got burnt due to high ammonia (someone said that is what high ammonia does to plants). 

i can smell something from my tank already, does not smell that bad though. i don't know how ammonia smells like and cant be sure about it. 
i have used the osmocte in the past without any problem, but have no idea what happen this time. 

i did not find 1 of my dead fish, maybe that could trigger more ammonia also, fish was known as gara ruffa doctor fish. 

thank you guys for your help and thanks for testing the stuff and hopefully others can learn more from this information.

thanks


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## sewingalot

I'll update a new test tonight to see if there is any change. After that, I'll wrap up the experiment. Not finding one of the dead fish is probably the main problem, but after a while, with the fish decomposing quickly, the cycling will kick in again and you shouldn't have more issues with time and good water changes.


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## sewingalot

This is an interesting change of events:

Tap, Whole, Crushed









Tap - 0









Whole - Definitely at 1.0 now









Crushed - Turning bluish - looks very close to 8.0!









So theoretically, if the osmocote became crushed and uprooted and there was enough in the water: It is plausible the osmocote was causing a high reading on the ammonia test. How accurate API test kits are? They've been pretty dead on for me when I've done the comparison with a known sample.

That's the end of the line for me unless I am personally asked to test anymore. It's been a fun lesson and you know me and test kits. :icon_excl

Draw your own conclusions, though. I am a numbers person, not a scientist.


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## plantbrain

Over time, the whole will be a bit different, initially fairly high, then a slow tapering off.

You can also ask the makers, they will give some decent info.

So think about the product or anything as a whole unit as added into the tank..........then..think about doing a time series over say a representative time frame, in this case, 1-6 months etc.
A little sealed jar is fine.

For say CO2, a data logging of the CO2 ppm each 30minutes and then at night can be far more useful than a single test point during the day at some random time.

Same is true for the O2.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sewingalot

Quite honestly, doing an experiment for 1 - 6 months would be great if I had the time. Right now, I am working crazy hours and was just kind of interested in general results. If anyone else wants to take over, I encourage it. I just like the idea that his test results were plausible.


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## MrMoneybags

^^i think that it proves that it wasnt the Osmocote that caused the ridiculously high spike...but the fish decomposing

sure your amm. levels raised in the whole capsule test tube...but it didnt hit >8ppm unless you smashed them...
also...your concentration of OS was (I hope) significantly higher than what he had in his tank


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## stewardwildcat

Most terrestrial fertilizers are ammonia based. I just got over a spike in my tank from fertz that were under the substrate but then a plant died and when i pulled it out i gave myself a mini cycle.


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## MrMoneybags

true
...but the OP said that he had a few pellets coming up here and there

not a major rescape or the like...a dropping a dew pellets in even a 10gal tank wont raise your amm. to 8ppm overnight


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## happi

this is the 3rd day of the test and there is no single change in ammonia. i have lost my siamese algae eater today:icon_cry::icon_cry:

liquid ammonia remover dont work either, did water change no change in ammonia either, so right now my tank is empty and i have to sell my fishes before they die or i might give them away for free. i raised most of them from fry, included my siamese algae eater, which was 6 months old.

here are todays ammonia results, dont be shocked to see that it passes 8.0ppm


















results are off the chart


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## happi

i would recomend those who use osmocote please post your test results. as you can see am not the only one who face this kind of problem, so if you have some fish losses it might be due to osmocote.


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## OverStocked

Something else is going on here. You need to continue doing water changes. 50% several times per day. It seems either you added much too much(though the amount you state is not THAT much) or something else is happening. 

Does your tap have any ammonia? Though it can't possibly have this much, as it would not meet epa standards.


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## happi

over_stocked said:


> Something else is going on here. You need to continue doing water changes. 50% several times per day. It seems either you added much too much(though the amount you state is not THAT much) or something else is happening.
> 
> Does your tap have any ammonia? Though it can't possibly have this much, as it would not meet epa standards.


i have tested out the tap water also, ammonia reads 0, i use 25% tap and 75% RO water, which i havent tested yet. i will test that right now and post the results. 

testing my ro water now for ammonia, will post the results in 5-10 mins


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## OverStocked

I would hope your RO has no ammonia... 

If you are getting readings like this you need to start doing as many water changes as your RO unit will allow you to do. There is no logical reason Osmocote would cause this high of a level if used like most of the people who do diy ferticles and what not do...


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## happi

over_stocked said:


> I would hope your RO has no ammonia...
> 
> If you are getting readings like this you need to start doing as many water changes as your RO unit will allow you to do. There is no logical reason Osmocote would cause this high of a level if used like most of the people who do diy ferticles and what not do...


just got the test done, ammonia read 0ppm on RO water, i dont have the ro system, i just buy the water from walmart.

i have used the same water on my 4g nano and ammonia read 0ppm on that tank, which was barely setup 2 days ago. 

i cannot keep chaning the water unless i add tap water only, which might effect some plants, there is no fish in the tank anymore. should i do 90% water change then?


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## Moody636

I'm sure you've already looked, but there might be a decomposing fish in the tank somewhere. Look closely at any potential hiding spots or in your filter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## happi

Moody636 said:


> I'm sure you've already looked, but there might be a decomposing fish in the tank somewhere. Look closely at any potential hiding spots or in your filter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


sorry there are no decomposing fish in the tank, the tank does not even have any live fish in it anymore, just taken them all out.


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## happi

did 75% water change and test still looks similar, test was done 20 minutes later after the water change. 

here are the results:
test results with camera on flash









test results without the camera flash









as you can see the water change did not make much change.


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## Hyzer

happi said:


> this is the 3rd day of the test and there is no single change in ammonia. i have lost my siamese algae eater today:icon_cry::icon_cry:
> 
> liquid ammonia remover dont work either, did water change no change in ammonia either, so right now my tank is empty and i have to sell my fishes before they die or i might give them away for free. i raised most of them from fry, included my siamese algae eater, which was 6 months old.
> 
> here are todays ammonia results, dont be shocked to see that it passes 8.0ppm
> 
> results are off the chart


 It's very alarming that you still had fish in there.

Impossible to do multiple significant water changes, remove dead fish, remove the Osmocote and not reduce the level of ammonia in your tank. Can't blame blame the ferts. You're doing it wrong...


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## happi

Hyzer said:


> It's very alarming that you still had fish in there.
> 
> Impossible to do multiple significant water changes, remove dead fish, remove the Osmocote and not reduce the level of ammonia in your tank. Can't blame blame the ferts. You're doing it wrong...


when did i say am blaming the ferts. all i said is that after many water changes the ammonia spikes up, just think about it, there is no dead fish or any other fish in the tank and how can 75% 0ppm ammonia water turn into more than 8.0ppm ammonia less than 20 minutes later, you said am doing it all wrong, can you tell me the correct way to fix this then.

am doing 90% water change again to see what happen next, if the results stays same/similar then its the ferts, nothing else.


there is no way am going to disturb the substrate to take out the osmocote.


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## happi

1st water change: 75% water change, the test read 8.0+ ppm ammonia 
2nd water change: 90% water change, the test read 2.0 ppm ammonia

2nd water change test results, test was done after 20 minutes of water change:

looks like its at 2.0ppm


















will test the same water later on to see what the results will be.


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## happi

i was just testing the rootmedic and osmocote plus, i crushed 4 balls of both fertilizers and they were same in size and i mixed them in their own 43ml water and tested them. 

osmocote plus results, not sure which color it looks like, you decide.










RootMedic results, you decide which color it looks like.










both results, side by side:










i hope RootMedic dont mind about posting these test results.


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## MrMoneybags

what youre doing wrong is trying to salvage it...IMO youre gonna have to scrap this tank
if it IS from the OS (which I doubt), the amm. is gonna spike again in a day or two

Ive used OS+ for several months now and have never had a problem like this
never had fish die off from amm. like this

are you sure you bought RO water and not ammonia? they are the same color ya kno :hihi:

also...I dont understand the purpose of your comparison between OS+ and RM...the creator has said repeatedly that the contents are very similar while the polymer coating is different...crushing them up wouldnt show anything


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## sewingalot

Let the water with the fertilizers sit a day or so and then test again. Do both crushed and whole. I'd be interested in the results.


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## happi

sewingalot said:


> Let the water with the fertilizers sit a day or so and then test again. Do both crushed and whole. I'd be interested in the results.


sure will, are you talking about doing crushed and whole on rootmedic and osmocote plus?

for the other person who asked about why am comparing them, that is because i also have the rootmedic tabs inserted along with the osmocote plus. i did not bring this up as i thought it could effect rootmedic reputation. i will repeat that am not comparing the products, i just wanted to see if either one is causing the problem. as in the test results, yes they both could cause ammonia spike. but again i wont blame either one, i must have just used too much of it in my tank. like other said that they dont have any problem with it in their tanks.

i apologize, if rootmedic mind about this post.


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## OverStocked

No problems here. The ingredients are nearly identical, so a crushed test will look the same. 

If just floating in water I'd expect results to be similar as well. The membrane is designed to work better under substrate. I'm at work on my phone so hard to type more...

I am interested to see you do a 100% change test right away and test in12 hours. Your plants will not be harmed by this. 

What kind of substrate do you have? How much? Have you cleaned your filter? I have never seen Rootmedic or osmocote cause levels this high in an established tank. 

I'm also running some new tests that compare 3 products both floating and under substrate. 

If I'd ever experienced anything this severe I'd never have made Rootmedic. 

One shouldn't have much for crushed osmocote pieces in a tank unless they crush them intentionally... you might notice you have to deliberately crush them...

Sent from my DINC


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## happi

over_stocked said:


> No problems here. The ingredients are nearly identical, so a crushed test will look the same.
> 
> If just floating in water I'd expect results to be similar as well. The membrane is designed to work better under substrate. I'm at work on my phone so hard to type more...
> 
> I am interested to see you do a 100% change test right away and test in12 hours. Your plants will not be harmed by this.
> 
> What kind of substrate do you have? How much? Have you cleaned your filter? I have never seen Rootmedic or osmocote cause levels this high in an established tank.
> 
> I'm also running some new tests that compare 3 products both floating and under substrate.
> 
> If I'd ever experienced anything this severe I'd never have made Rootmedic.
> 
> One shouldn't have much for crushed osmocote pieces in a tank unless they crush them intentionally... you might notice you have to deliberately crush them...
> 
> Sent from my DINC


hi there, 

thanks for the understanding, i did the 90% water change last night and test were showing 2.0ppm ammonia and after 10 hours later i did another test today and it looks similar to 2.0ppm or could be 3.0ppm. am not going to do any water change for another day and will test the water again. hopefully it goes down or stays the same.

my tank setup:
50g tank
flourite black sand (3-4 inches high)
2x Rena Xp2 filters
nova extreme 2x54w
pressurized co2 
rex style co2 reactor
EI dosing (but i haven't fed anything since ammonia problem)


the tank has been running over year now and yes i cleaned the filters and i use lava rock for bacteria to grow, there are about 5 pot scrubber in the filter also.

i guess there is more ammonia than good bacteria.


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## OverStocked

I am honestly surprised the test results for crushed vary as much as they do. The ammoniacal nitrogen content is nearly identical. 

If you do not have any osmocote or rootmedic balls on the surface, there should be next to none in the water column.... unless you grossly overdosed your tank size. 

I think the easiest way to determine if any of the substrate ferts are you problem is to remove all the water, do a full water change, treat with prime, and then test in 20 minutes. then in 24. 

I am going to guess your good bacteria is in shock right now if not gone. This is just a guess though. When these things happen we tend to panic. We do all kinds of things trying to fix it. You may have overzealously cleaned the filter--but that is also a guess. 

To get levels this high in your tank, there had to be something decomposing or you had to crush up a TON of the ferts... I am guessing you would know if you crushed a lot of them, so I am not sure what happened. 

Doing tests like this only help advance the hobby though. At some point in our fish keeping careers we all experience catastrophe. Props to you for not packing it up and running away. 

Honestly, I would consider starting over. If yo utake the sand out, and put it in a bucket you can stick a hose in the bottom and will likely filter most of the osmocote out the top with running water. Then place them more sparingly. 

The "directions" for RootMedic are 1 capsule, 1-3" below the substrate, every 3-5 inches and at the base of heavy rootfeeders. I use this because I know it is safe all the time. I personally use so much in my tanks you wouldn't even believe me if I showed you... I use pool filter sand in my personal tanks, and have tested with everything from ada to regular gravel. 

Regular gravel provides the most risk, as it doesn't trap much for the roots. Sands are not very permeable and thus most stays behind. 

+Did more fish die in your tank after the first go? Because unless removed immediately I would suspect they kept pushing ammonia up. I wish we had a time machine so we could go back and see how much everything spiked right away prior to death. 

Also, the nitrate issue has not been resolved. Your plants don't seem to be using anything... I have more of a hard time keeping ANY nitrate in my water than it getting high. This is almost always the case in planted tanks, particularly high tech tanks. 

It wouldn't explain the ammonia, but are you positive you didn't overdose on nitrates? 200ppm is a LOT. That and the ammonia spike are easily fatal. Then add decomposing fish to raise ammonia to then raise nitrate and things are off the charts(which they are... you are easily above 8 if a 75% change barely did anything). 


ANyways... the radio keeps going off at work and I keep losing my train of thought, so I will stop now to leave you with this scattered post...


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## happi

hi over stocked,

i did not panic much, i always think before rushing into things, i cleaned the filter but did not wash the lava rocks or the pot scrubber, i know that we can kill the good bacteria if we just wash them off with tap water. 

looks like there is allot of work i have to do this week, i really did not want to mess with the substrate unless there is other option. i was thinking about adding more substrate which will cover the older substrate and osmocote. i don't think that osmocote will release that much fertilizer once berried under more substrate. 

i haven't tested out for nitrate yet, will do that today later on. 

i wish if fertilizer did not contain any type of ammonia in them


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## happi

just ordered 5 bags of echo complete for $90 total. is this going to solve my problem, am planning on adding this on top of my exiting substrate (flourite black sand). the new substrate should be able to cover the old osmocote in my substrate, which was causing the ammonia issue.

please advice


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## MrMoneybags

is 5 bags enough to start over? instead of having a super deep substrate bed...why not start over fresh? then [in theory] your problem would definitively be solved


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## KH2PO4

happi said:


> i would recomend those who use osmocote please post your test results. as you can see am not the only one who face this kind of problem, so if you have some fish losses it might be due to osmocote.


I've been using it for about 2 years now.
I add it every 5-6 months. The most recent time I used 
Tom Barr's 5 grams per sq/f recommendation.
NH3/4 have never been detectable, even after major redo 
(remove substrate and put it back, so some pellets are 
on substrate surface). :smile:


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## chad320

FYI, osmocote does not cause ammonia problems. Period. No way, no how. Unless you used WAY more than the recommonded amout, meaning more than 1/2 the bottle. Ive used a ton of this stuff for years without adverse effects. Ever.


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## Hoppy

chad320 said:


> FYI, osmocote does not cause ammonia problems. Period. No way, no how. Unless you used WAY more than the recommonded amout, meaning more than 1/2 the bottle. Ive used a ton of this stuff for years without adverse effects. Ever.


Forgive my laziness, since you probably already answered this: how do you use it? Under the substrate, on top of the substrate, etc.? I did get green water once with Osmocote used in riparium planters, but I can't say that it was the cause of the green water.


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## chad320

It should be the first thing you put in your tank. It will end up being the bottom most layer. Eventually over time it will work its way up as you pull plants up. These are easily poked in with a dowel rod if the look irritates you. As for the amout used, its a light dusting across the bottom. Enough for good coverage, but still be able to see through the bottom glass.
Ive used this stuff starting up brand new tanks, redoing old precycled tanks, and plugging frozen osmocote cubes into existing substrate. On low light or high light tanks. Ive never had a problem with any Ammonia spikes or algae problems linked to the use of it. It will admittedly get irritating replanting and having to poke them back in.
I suppose when redoing a tank there will likely be a small mini cycle and it may contribute some to the process, but this is minute enough that it seems to cycle as usual anyway.


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## Hoppy

Chad, that's how I used Osmocote in setting up an 8 gallon nano cube tank - no problems at all in about 2 months.


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## Sharkfood

I recently set up a grow out tank, and coated the entire bottom with a non see through layer before plunking down my flourite. For 2 weeks, I could smell the ammonia in the tank from several feet away. I don't keep any livestock in the tank, and it didn't seem to hurt the plants, so I just didn't worry about it (You should see the daily surface scum removal though). 

It's been a little over 3 weeks now, and I don't smell it very strongly anymore. I haven't tested the water for ammonia. I did start getting GDA almost immediately though.


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## chad320

Yeah, if you coated the bottom I can see some issues. I kind of makes sense if you read the bottle that it feeds plants for up to 3-4 months so logic should tell you not to add more than you think your plants will use in 3-4 months. I dont feel this is true for an aquarium, under the substrate, so I gauge it on a 6 month time period to be safe.
When push comes to shove, im a bigger fan of MTS (mineralised top soil, not the snails). This has proven to be more effective through time. I still re-up it with osmocote, but initally it lasts longer.


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## sewingalot

Was about to throw out this water, but decided to take one last test:
None, whole, crushed. 









Looks like the ammonia can increase up to 4 ppm whole and 8 ppm crushed if you add quite a bit to the amount of osmocote to the water. In addition, I put some osmocote in my 10 gallon tank under 1/4 inch of substrate at the same time I was wrapping up the last photo. Tested it today and have 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, 0 nitrates reading on the tests. I don't dose this tank and there is red shrimp with no issues.


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## Hcancino

I've had problems before when I used osmocote plus caps. I put maybe 15 in my 60 gallon and then a month later I took out all my plants and the osmocote came up to the surface of the substrate and my problems started happening. I had a little ammonia spike that got to 1 ppm. After a couple water changes and some re burying of the osmocote plus everything went away. That being said its been over 4 months and I still have most of the osmocote plus still in my tank. I have maybe 15 little of those balls on top of my substrate on the right side of my tank but I don't have any ammonia spikes at all due to what I think is having a more heavily planted tank.


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## happi

just to let you know, even though ammonia was off the chart, some of my fish survived, ammonia in Osmocote is from ammonium, which is less toxic even in high numbers with PH less than 7.


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## Hcancino

From what I understood in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium plants prefer ammonium over NO3 so if you would have thrown in alot of plants in there they could have helped with that.


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## happi

Hcancino said:


> From what I understood in Ecology of the Planted Aquarium plants prefer ammonium over NO3 so if you would have thrown in alot of plants in there they could have helped with that.


this isnt 100% true, even though it was mention in that book. plant uses both but its easier for them to use the ammonium, as it does not need to be converted.


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## Jeffww

Osmocote causes me trouble with nitrates more than ammonia..They WILL float up as they end up being much less dense than most substrates. But by then they are spent of nutrients and are just hollow shells and can be siphoned up really easily.


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## chiefroastbeef

I will NEVER use osmocote, or any capsule/granule substrate fert products again. They pop up all over the place, very unsightly and pain to get rid of.


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## L4RROC

Well after reading this entire thread I find myself in the same predicament which is: is it safe/beneficial adding osmocote or miracle grow smart release or any capsule/granules? I guess I keep searching... root tabs? ...


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## burr740

L4RROC said:


> Well after reading this entire thread I find myself in the same predicament which is: is it safe/beneficial adding osmocote or miracle grow smart release or any capsule/granules? I guess I keep searching... root tabs? ...


This thread may be of some use to you, little experiment I did with a heavy application of osmocote+ and blasting sand as the substrate- http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=876457

Im a big fan fwiw, use it in all my tanks with inert blasting sand. There is a such thing as too much of course, but I have never experienced ammonia or nitrite spikes from it like what's been previously discussed here.

The only problem I ever had was from overdosing a high tech 75 gallon. It caused some kind of micro or fe toxicity in the plants when combined with EI dosing. After much trial and error and cursing, and several fried plants...I wound up going 4-5 months dosing no micros at all. That's how long it took for the osmocote to finally run out. Or at least drop down where the tank needed micros again.


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## schnebbles

is it ok for trumpet snails? How many tabs might I use in a 40b? Putting black diamond in tomorrow.


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## burr740

If you're starting from scratch I would forget the tabs and scatter it evenly across the bottom in loose form. Lay down 1/4" or 1/2" of sand, then the O+, then the rest of the sand.

Here's a pic of what I did recently, from the thread I linked above. Although I had no problems using this amount I'd say it borders on being too much. (it was only added to 1/2 the footprint of a 20L)











Did this much underneath some stauro in another tank.











Somewhere between those two amounts would probably be ideal, imho.


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## FatherLandDescendant

I've been using osmocote in 00 gel caps under heavy root feeders for a year now with no issues, push'em in deep enough into STS substrate and the pellets won't resurface.


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## klibs

BDBS really holds the osmocote down there. I buried mine at least 1.5" deep and they are definitely not coming up.

Similar situation to burr - I put a ton under my substrate when I set up my tank and all is good so far (2.5 months later)

I think they float up because people put them in the gel caps. There's air in there so they have a tendency to float up. IMO just stuffing the individual balls in there works much better


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## schnebbles

I'm going to do that.


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## klibs

Yeah I think I put too much in mine though. Mine was peppered about as well as burr's first photo. IMO you need like 1/2 that amount.

Coming from someone who battled bad diatoms at substrate level for a month or two after setting up the new substrate... I think that may have been the cause.

You can always put more in but you can't take any out!


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## burr740

klibs said:


> You can always put more in but you can't take any out!


Aint that the truth!


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## Commonaffinity

Okay, so I know that I'm new to this and all, but I just read through this thread from begining to end and I'm not sure if I should use Osmocote+ as I was planning on doing, or if I should go with another fert like flourish tabs. Any advice?


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## klibs

IMO osmocote is fine - just don't overload it. I used a liberal amount of it under my substrate when I set up my tank (I think burr did the same thing) and things are fine right now.

I also use the pellets and push them in one by one - don't bother with the gel cap root tabs IMO. They will just tend to float up and try to get out of your substrate.


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## burr740

klibs said:


> IMO osmocote is fine - just don't overload it. I used a liberal amount of it under my substrate when I set up my tank (I think burr did the same thing) and things are fine right now.


Yep


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## FatherLandDescendant

klibs said:


> don't bother with the gel cap root tabs IMO. They will just tend to float up and try to get out of your substrate.


On this I'll have to disagree. I use them in gel caps and don't have that problem. Just got to make sure you push them in deep.


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## klibs

Depended on the substrate... I had eco complete that barely held the caps down but BDBS had no problem. Still don't see why pushing in the individual balls isn't the standard way of using osmocote at root tabs


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## end3r.P

klibs said:


> IMO osmocote is fine - just don't overload it. I used a liberal amount of it under my substrate when I set up my tank (I think burr did the same thing) and things are fine right now.
> 
> I also use the pellets and push them in one by one - don't bother with the gel cap root tabs IMO. They will just tend to float up and try to get out of your substrate.


How much is too much? I'm about to put some gelcaps in my 38-gallon -- 12x36 footprint, pretty heavily planted.


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## FatherLandDescendant

end3r.P said:


> How much is too much? I'm about to put some gelcaps in my 38-gallon -- 12x36 footprint, pretty heavily planted.


If your using gel caps press them in under your heavy root feeders.


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## end3r.P

FatherLandDescendant said:


> If your using gel caps press them in under your heavy root feeders.


Okay. I've read that swords are heavy root feeders. Does that include micro sword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) and narrow leaf chain sword (Echinoderms tennellus)? How about chilensis, ludwigia, wisteria, rotala indica, myrio green, or moneywort? Is there a rule of thumb to follow for which tend to feed more through their roots? (I'm guessing the stem plants are lighter root feeders...)


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## wantsome

Some root tabs have ammonium in it which is a toxic if it gets into your water column. Seachem don't have it in their root tabs.


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## FatherLandDescendant

end3r.P said:


> Okay. I've read that swords are heavy root feeders. Does that include micro sword (Lilaeopsis brasiliensis) and narrow leaf chain sword (Echinoderms tennellus)? How about chilensis, ludwigia, wisteria, rotala indica, myrio green, or moneywort? Is there a rule of thumb to follow for which tend to feed more through their roots? (I'm guessing the stem plants are lighter root feeders...)


Most stems that I'm aware of are water column feeders and just use their roots as anchorage. The swords for sure are heavy root feeders, crypts are as well, I would also assume micro swords. You could always start a new thread and ask how best to provide nutrients for your specific plants, some of yours I recognize, others not so much, I'm most familiar with those I keep and I learn about any new ones I get as I get them, but can't never remember names. There's also the plant profiles data base on this site, the link can be found on the very top navigation bar on any of this sites page.


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## aquaman123

Hyzer said:


> True story. I had some issues in my 10g with Osmocote (not buried deep enough), sand, and trumpet snails.
> 
> But...I've never tested anything as extreme as you. Are you sure there weren't other factors? Is this a new tank?
> 
> Still love the stuff though. I put it below 1" of peat and 2" of Flourite in my 40g and it is working out great. Shrimp and otos happy, healthy.


did ur trumpet snails die?


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## WinterSoldier.

I am going to use one capsule of osmocote, I have ramshorn snails, I plan to bury it deep under my sword plant. Any ideas that it might kill off the snails? I'd hate for that to happen


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## burr740

WinterSoldier. said:


> I am going to use one capsule of osmocote, I have ramshorn snails, I plan to bury it deep under my sword plant. Any ideas that it might kill off the snails? I'd hate for that to happen


Its never killed mine


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