# Frogbit having problems



## JonA (Mar 8, 2017)

My frogbit was spreading and the roots are really long. Now the leaves are doing this.









It's in a Spec V. The flow is at the minimum but it might still be too much. I'm going to put a sponge filter on the output to limit flow. That should make the ember tetras happier too. I just tested the water and this is the first time nitrites are at 0. Tank is finally cycled after about 3 months. Nitrates are a little high right now at 40 or 80 ppm, I can't tell the difference. Right now I'm adding Flourish and Excel. I'm dosing 1 ml flourish once or twice a week, and .5 ml Excel about once every three days. My anubias nana petite is growing pretty good but some of them are getting holes in the leaves. I read that was a potassium issue for that reason I'm going to try an all in one fertilizer. I have Thrive for shrimp coming. Any clue what's going on with the frogbit?


----------



## stussy28 (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't think it's potassium since I dose both kno3 and k2so4 and am having this same problem. I have minimal flow as well. I thought it was a nitrogen Deficiency so that's why I actually started dosing kno3. How high is your water level? I've lowered my water level and raised my light to see whether the light is burning the frogbit.


----------



## JonA (Mar 8, 2017)

THe water level is about as low as it can go, I raised the light up as high as it will go, and it's still having issues. I might take some out and put it in a bucket and see if I can bring some of it back. I really like it and want it to survive. Could Co2 be causing the problems?


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

I have some that do that from time to time. I think I've linked it to iron actually. They have an unlimited supply of CO2 btw 

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## JonA (Mar 8, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> I think I've linked it to iron actually.


Too much or not enough?

Bump: And is that some other type of floating plant in top right in the frogbit?


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

JonA said:


> Too much or not enough?
> 
> Bump: And is that some other type of floating plant in top right in the frogbit?


Not enough, and it really looks like Silvinia minima at first glance, but it doesn't have the right texture to the to of the leaves from what I can tell. Maybe you can check out pictures online and compare?


----------



## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

You may be missing other macro nutrients like potassium or phosphate. The Flourish doesn't have much of them in it.
The other floaters you have in your tank are Duckweed and I agree with Nate that sort of looks like a Salvinia species but not quite. You may wanna open an ID thread and someone should be able to identify it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## stussy28 (Mar 17, 2016)

That's interesting on the iron. I have been planning to buy some of it for my swords and crypts. Now I will have to get some for myself. 

I think that could be salvinia cucullata.


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

I got some Frogbit from Nate a couple months back and it's not done very well at all despite being in a tank that is rocking out stem plants that need iron, Rotala and Ludwigia. I also fertilize with potassium, magnesium and calcium for GH balance and some macros of Phosphate and Nitrate. Still not sure what's going wrong with the Frogbit as the other floaters I got from him are doing great.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> I have some that do that from time to time. I think I've linked it to iron actually. They have an unlimited supply of CO2 btw
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk




lol the good thing about floaters is you can rule out a co2 deficiency. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I got some Frogbit from Nate a couple months back and it's not done very well at all despite being in a tank that is rocking out stem plants that need iron, Rotala and Ludwigia. I also fertilize with potassium, magnesium and calcium for GH balance and some macros of Phosphate and Nitrate. Still not sure what's going wrong with the Frogbit as the other floaters I got from him are doing great.


I got them from @RWaters, so if anything, it's all his fault 

I was dosing too lean on micros thinking I had a toxicity issue, and when I started dosing more, they stopped doing that (noticed improvements over a couple of weeks). I also noticed partial green in my Ludwigia 'red' went away after I upped them too, so I just assumed the increased iron helped - maybe something else in CSM+B?


----------



## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Can you post pics of your other plants and the damage you are seeing on them?

This looks like a macro nutrient deficiency for sure but more pics are needed to be cwrtain whicj one. How are you dosing nitrates, or are you just letting them accumulate via fish food?


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I got some Frogbit from Nate a couple months back and it's not done very well at all despite being in a tank that is rocking out stem plants that need iron, Rotala and Ludwigia. I also fertilize with potassium, magnesium and calcium for GH balance and some macros of Phosphate and Nitrate. Still not sure what's going wrong with the Frogbit as the other floaters I got from him are doing great.




The frogbit I got from Nate are doing great and are really covering the surface really good spreading a ton. Nearly tripled the amount since I got them from him










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

clownplanted said:


> The frogbit I got from Nate are doing great and are really covering the surface really good spreading a ton. Nearly tripled the amount since I got them from him
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect that Liebig's Minimum is at play here, as you've got something in your water that I don't have.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I suspect that Liebig's Minimum is at play here, as you've got something in your water that I don't have.




Lol. I have that super secret water. 
5GH
3KH
Half EI macros 2x week
Half EI micros 2x week

Will see how it does now as I just cut my light intensity 50% 2 days ago. Wa way too strong for 10-15ppm co2. Could of been the 150 par from light to frogbit helping. Will see if it behaves the same with about half that. Using Beamswork DHL now with dimmer. 

Oh and I also just switched to using ThriveS since it's my CRS tank. So we will see if the changes fare well for the frogbit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

There are some floating plant's that do not like the surface of their leaves to get wet from too much rippling effect or splashing of water from HOB filter's or sponge filter's.
I do not recall what specific plant's these are,, but the Duckweed does not seem to be one of them, judging from the net full's I remove each week to keep it from blocking too much of my low to moderate light.
Floating plant's are good indicator that plant's below might also be lacking nutrient (s) for they have plenty of light ,and near unlimited access to CO2 in the atmosphere above the tank.(300 to 400 ppm approx.)
They will be first to indicate deficiencies .
Leaves only nutrient's that may soon become apparent on those plant's lower in the water column and possibly much less CO2 as well.
That's my take anyway.

Google "Duckweed index" www.ukaps.org for perhaps better understanding?


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

roadmaster said:


> There are some floating plant's that do not like the surface of their leaves to get wet from too much rippling effect or splashing of water from HOB filter's or sponge filter's.
> I do not recall what specific plant's these are,, but the Duckweed does not seem to be one of them, judging from the net full's I remove each week to keep it from blocking too much of my low to moderate light.
> Floating plant's are good indicator that plant's below might also be lacking nutrient (s) for they have plenty of light ,and near unlimited access to CO2 in the atmosphere above the tank.(300 to 400 ppm approx.)
> They will be first to indicate deficiencies .
> ...


I believe that's the issue with mini water lettuce is it doesn't like droplets left on it's surface either.

I find it odd that I have to remove lots of Salvinia Minima from my shrimp tanks, it's always vigorous and green but the Frogbit does poorly. I know I have adequate iron as everything else in the tanks is doing great, just not the frogbit.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I believe that's the issue with mini water lettuce is it doesn't like droplets left on it's surface either.
> 
> I find it odd that I have to remove lots of Salvinia Minima from my shrimp tanks, it's always vigorous and green but the Frogbit does poorly. I know I have adequate iron as everything else in the tanks is doing great, just not the frogbit.




I do not even dose any extra iron at all. Just from what's in micros and at half level at that just twice weekly. Tds is low also 150-170 usually. Keep it from hitting 200 ever. 

What is the tds in this talk with frogbit? I do not have splashing but I do have surface movement. No drops getting on them. Plants are growing really well in this tank considering the low EI levels. Have to do another trim. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

clownplanted said:


> I do not even dose any extra iron at all. Just from what's in micros and at half level at that just twice weekly. Tds is low also 150-170 usually. Keep it from hitting 200 ever.
> 
> What is the tds in this talk with frogbit? I do not have splashing but I do have surface movement. No drops getting on them. Plants are growing really well in this tank considering the low EI levels. Have to do another trim.
> 
> ...


I just did a water change last night when both tanks were @ tds of 179, and I brought the tds down to 163. My 5 gallon and 2.4 gallon satellite tanks both run KH of 2 and a GH of 5~6. No CO2 injection, the little satellite tanks are filtered by an Aquaclear 20, and the 5 gallon a one gallon DIY siphon/airlift tube HOB. Both tanks use covers as we have a problem with excess humidity in the house.

I've been adding a minimal amount of a terrestrial Iron/micro chelate to the shrimp tanks, as the Java fern were starting to get a bit tatty and yellow. About a 0.25 ml per 7 gallons. We have a small amount of natural iron from our well. Considering all my tanks run slightly acid pH I cannot rule out that possibly the natural Iron is precipitating out. Which is why I now use chelated Iron. I also have a heavy growth of aerial leaves on a large Water sprite in the Aquaclears sponge media, ( also showing no Chlorosis at all..) and the other filter's surface is dense with Salvinia and Water Lettuce, which are both very healthy looking and have to be thinned twice a month.

For all obvious parameters these two tanks should be kicking out the Frogbit in volume, my only guess as to the problem is that it's caused by the condensation in the tanks, water spotting on the leaves, which should be killing the Water Lettuce, as it notorious for disliking water splashes and drips onto it's leaves.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

GrampsGrunge said:


> I just did a water change last night when both tanks were @ tds of 179, and I brought the tds down to 163. My 5 gallon and 2.4 gallon satellite tanks both run KH of 2 and a GH of 5~6. No CO2 injection, the little satellite tanks are filtered by an Aquaclear 20, and the 5 gallon a one gallon DIY siphon/airlift tube HOB. Both tanks use covers as we have a problem with excess humidity in the house.
> 
> I've been adding a minimal amount of a terrestrial Iron/micro chelate to the shrimp tanks, as the Java fern were starting to get a bit tatty and yellow. About a 0.25 ml per 7 gallons. We have a small amount of natural iron from our well. Considering all my tanks run slightly acid pH I cannot rule out that possibly the natural Iron is precipitating out. Which is why I now use chelated Iron. I also have a heavy growth of aerial leaves on a large Water sprite in the Aquaclears sponge media, ( also showing no Chlorosis at all..) and the other filter's surface is dense with Salvinia and Water Lettuce, which are both very healthy looking and have to be thinned twice a month.
> 
> For all obvious parameters these two tanks should be kicking out the Frogbit in volume, my only guess as to the problem is that it's caused by the condensation in the tanks, water spotting on the leaves, which should be killing the Water Lettuce, as it notorious for disliking water splashes and drips onto it's leaves.




I wonder if it could be caused by the covers due to excess humidity. That sounds like the culprit to me as it sound like it will get precipitation on the leaves which could be causing this. Looking at the tops of all my frogbit the leaves they all appear dry and here in Nevada we have little to none humidity. Very dry. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

clownplanted said:


> I wonder if it could be caused by the covers due to excess humidity. That sounds like the culprit to me as it sound like it will get precipitation on the leaves which could be causing this. Looking at the tops of all my frogbit the leaves they all appear dry and here in Nevada we have little to none humidity. Very dry.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not to shoot down the idea, but as a data point, I actually run covers on all my tanks, and I don't have that issue anymore as I've increased micros. Could it be something other than iron from micros that they were needing? I'm not really doing anything special - standard EI ferts from Colin :/


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

natemcnutty said:


> Not to shoot down the idea, but as a data point, I actually run covers on all my tanks, and I don't have that issue anymore as I've increased micros. Could it be something other than iron from micros that they were needing? I'm not really doing anything special - standard EI ferts from Colin :/




Good point for sure. And yes I also have been using the same standard EI ferts from NilocG not just iron. Again half amount as I believe you are as well? In fact they are growing like weeds I just gave a bunch away today. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

I second what Roadmaster was saying. Any time my frogbit got wet for a decent amount of time the leaves would rot away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## JonA (Mar 8, 2017)

I started dosing Thrive S and it's reproduced so much I had to give some of it away. I lowered the flow by putting a couple pieces of foam in the outlet pipe. I took them out after about a week ago because there was a film forming. So far the frogbit hasn't been affected by the increased flow.


----------



## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

JonA said:


> I started dosing Thrive S and it's reproduced so much I had to give some of it away. I lowered the flow by putting a couple pieces of foam in the outlet pipe. I took them out after about a week ago because there was a film forming. So far the frogbit hasn't been affected by the increased flow.




That's good to know with using the ThriveS as that is now what I am using in the tank with the frogbit also. Also I have pretty good surface flow with the filter outlet that is pretty close to surface and also a small powerhead on opposite side again close to surface. The frogbit seem to collect in one area and are still doing well and growing like weeds. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

