# Plants dying over time. Not sure what I did wrong



## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

This is gonna be a long post. I would appreciate any advice here.

Plants in my 75gal tank used to grow very well but they've been dying off recently. I've lost water wisteria and amazon sword completely. They melted then vanished from my tank, literally. This is very weird because for the life of me I just can't figure out what I did wrong. There's barely any change in my tank except I removed one of the filters, which doesn't affect much, in my opinion. I've tried seachem replenish to add Ca, Epsom salt to add Mg, but nothing worked.


- Tank: 75gal

- Filter: Hydor Pro 350; Aquaclear 110 (removed)

- Substrate: Caribsea sand (bottom); Seachem flourite sand (top)

- Lights: Finnex 24/7+

- Fert: root tabs

- Liquid fert: Back in 2017 I used Seachem flourish, but then I switched to NilocG Thrive. This is when the plants started dying, but I don't think it has anything to do with Thrive, since it's a better fert than Flourish. I dose 10ml every week.

- CO2 liquid: Metrex Metricide 28. Dosing 10ml every 2 days.












































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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @ VintageTurquoise'

Welcome to TPT!

First, Metricide 28 is is 2.5% glutaraldehyde or 1.66 times stronger than Seachem Excel; a daily dose using Metricide 28 would be 1 ml per 16-17 gallons or for a 75 gallon it would be 4.6 ml. Overdosing glutaraldehyde has caused me to experience stunted / slow growth in the past.

However I don't think that is your primary problem. Do you have any water parameter information you could share? pH, dKH, dGH, nitrates (ppm of NO3)? 

I especially interested in the hardness (dGH) of the water in your tank. Are you doing regular water changes? How much? How often? If you don't know the dGH of your tank I may be able to get the information from your local water utility; what city, state, and utility do you use.

The clear tips of the Microsorum (java ferns) is normal; the hooking leaf tips and curling under leaf margins in your tank are not.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @ VintageTurquoise'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hello sir, 

I know you as SeattleRoy on Fishlore. I can't thank you enough on how much you helped me here. You've been very helpful to the community. 

- I will try lowering Metrex dose. But my tank is suffering from BBA as well. I did cleaning my filter as you suggested but it doesn't seem to work.

- You hit the nails on asking about GH and KH. Honestly the tap water in my area (AZ) is very hard. I've included the pictures below. So here's detailed measurements:
GH: 15 drops (sorry I don't know how to say it properly)
KH: 6 drops
Ammonia & Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40
PH: 7 - 8

I tried mixing tap water with RO. Again, nothing works. But you can see my tank back in 2017, it was fine with tap water. 

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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

GH & KH









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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

I do water change 25% every week, but recently, 25% every 2 weeks.

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

First guess is 10ml Thrive in a 75G is pretty much nothing.

Plants look like they are starving.

There is no such thing as liquid CO2, and you might be dosing too much glut. 

BBA is almost always the result of too much light and high organics. And unhappy starving plants are the first target.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Follow through on pursuing the nutrient issue that other posters are guiding you on. Since you had success with this light for a year, I’m thinking it may not be a light problem, longer term. However, it may be too much light now that your plant mass is so much lower, which will drive algae higher.

Also, consider the possibility that circulation is not good enough in your tank. Although the filter you removed should not affect the tank from a filtering standpoint, it may have added the minimum circulation that your tank needs. I like to see all of my plants moving very gently from top to bottom. Plus, proper circulation delivers nutrients more completely. You may want to try putting the filter back on, without any of the filtration material in it, and see if the added circulation causes a recovery. If it recovers, you may want to add another Hydor Koralia.

Regarding the brown algae, I’m suspecting rhizoclonium (if it really is brown and not just dark GHA), which does occur with stagnant water, dirty conditions (clean your filter and change 50% of your water weekly for a month), low nutrients and CO2 / O2. Increased circulation will help much of this if your circulation is poor.

Metricide: I'd do 4 ml every day. Did you throw away the activator that came with the Metricide? It should not be used.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Greggz said:


> First guess is 10ml Thrive in a 75G is pretty much nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My bad. I meant I dose Thrive as in the instructions (1 pump = 10gal).

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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Deanna said:


> Follow through on pursuing the nutrient issue that other posters are guiding you on. Since you had success with this light for a year, I’m thinking it may not be a light problem, longer term. However, it may be too much light now that your plant mass is so much lower, which will drive algae higher.
> 
> Also, consider the possibility that circulation is not good enough in your tank. Although the filter you removed should not affect the tank from a filtering standpoint, it may have added the minimum circulation that your tank needs. I like to see all of my plants moving very gently from top to bottom. Plus, proper circulation delivers nutrients more completely. You may want to try putting the filter back on, without any of the filtration material in it, and see if the added circulation causes a recovery. If it recovers, you may want to add a wave-like pump(s) such as the Hydor Koralias.
> 
> Regarding the brown algae, I’m suspecting rhizoclonium (if it really is brown and not just dark GHA), which does occur with stagnant water, dirty conditions (clean your filter and change 50% of your water weekly for a month), low nutrients and CO2 / O2. Increased circulation will help much of this if your circulation is poor.


Thank you for the advice. As for the circulation, I do have 2 hydor koralia on the right side of my tank (see thr 2018 pic). The big filter has a spray bar on the left, flowing across the tank. I'm not sure if the combo is right to have good flow, but I've noticed that BBA forms the strongest near high flow areas, which is weird.

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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

VintageTurquoise said:


> Thank you for the advice. As for the circulation, I do have 2 hydor koralia on the right side of my tank (see thr 2018 pic). The big filter has a spray bar on the left, flowing across the tank. I'm not sure if the combo is right to have good flow, but I've noticed that BBA forms the strongest near high flow areas, which is weird.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk


Yes: BBA and hair algae will tend to expand in high flow areas, but not rhizoclonium. However, it doesn’t mean that circulation is a bad thing. Only you can decide if your flow pattern is right, but it should be sweeping across the substrate to ensure that all of the plant is getting the maximum nutrient exposure available.

Given the absence of CO2 and based upon your description of dosing and the fish load, I doubt that any of your fertilizers are limited. Do you know what your TDS is? 

Circulation and cleanliness are next in line. Clean you filter and tank weekly for a whilwe and do 50% water changes weekly for a while.

So, if your nutrients are unlimited, your water is flowing evenly and your tank and filter are clean, that really leaves only light and CO2. It may be best to ignore your past tank health (which may have been a slow deterioration process) and focus on light. If light is too strong (PAR value), with no CO2, plants will falter and algae will expand.

It would be best if you could estimate your PAR at the substrate, but let’s assume it is too high. I would cut my photoperiod down to 4 hours a day and maintain the Metricide dosing at 4 ml daily. Then, watch and wait a few weeks to see if plants start to recover. It will be slow without CO2, but they should at least start to appear healthy.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Deanna said:


> Yes: BBA and hair algae will tend to expand in high flow areas, but not rhizoclonium. However, it doesn’t mean that circulation is a bad thing. Only you can decide if your flow pattern is right, but it should be sweeping across the substrate to ensure that all of the plant is getting the maximum nutrient exposure available.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is good advice. I will follow that. Cleaning the tank and doing water change more regularly might help. I realized I have been doing those things less than I did in the past which might be a factor. 

No actually TDS is a new term to me. I've been in the hobby for 2 years but Idk a thing about it. Would like to hear it from you.



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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Also, how do I measure PAR? How much is enough for my 75gal ?

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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

VintageTurquoise said:


> Hello sir,
> 
> I know you as SeattleRoy on Fishlore. I can't thank you enough on how much you helped me here. You've been very helpful to the community.
> 
> ...


Hi @VintageTurquoise,

It is great to see others jump into offer suggestions, as you can see TPT has numerous folks that are willing to help. I think most of the folks covered BBA, for me it is usually build up of organics from not keeping my filters as clean as I should or I get lazy (or this time of year too busy) for water changes.

With a hardness of dGH=15 it is likely not a calcium issue and I don't see a lot "hooked downward leaf tips" that would typically suggest a possible calcium issue. What I did see in your pictures is curled under (sometimes over on some species) leaf margins an indicator or insufficient magnesium. 

The second concern is the pH = 7.0 - 8.0 (pretty wide range). Many of the iron supplements in fertilizers become unavailable to plants in alkaline (pH>7.0) conditions. Thrive (not Thrive +) contains both EDTA iron and DPTA iron. The EDTA is good up to about pH=6.8 where 50% of the iron is still available but is basically unavailable at pH=7.2 or higher. The DPTA is a little better, with 50% being available at pH=7.5 but at pH=8.0 only about 25% is available.

Here is what I suggest:
1) check your filter, if it is dirty clean it

2) do a 50% water change; do one every week in the future

3) continue dosing Thive per the instructions, monitor you nitrates weekly before water changes; cut the Metricide dosage down to 1ml per 10 gallons 2X per week

4) add Seachem Flourish Iron (ferrous glutaraldehyde) to your dosing schedule; I suggest 2X per week to9 start per the instructions on the bottle (5ml per 50 gallons)

5) go to your local drug store and pick up a box/bag of Epsom Salt (aka MgSO4*7H2O -- get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no perfumes or additives). Do an initial dose after the 50% water change of 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons. Thereafter, when you do your weekly water change, add 1/2 teaspoon of Epsom Salt per 10 gallons of new water added.

Now wait.............watch the new leaves on your plants as they emerge over the next two (2) weeks. Does the color look greener? Do the leaves look healthier? Is the growth rate improving? If so then we are on the right path. Please post pictures as things progress, ask questions as they arise. You can get your tank back to it previous glory but it will take a little time.

-Roy


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @VintageTurquoise,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you Roy! This is great advice. I'll follow every step you gave especially water changes.

This is weird because I used to do fine but now everything looks like a failure, and I don't even know why!

Fun fact: I'm Vietnamese living in the US and most people in Vietnam seem to be "experts" when it comes to this hobby, even newbies. When I asked them about tips, they just said they didn't do anything much to their tank, they just let the plants grow. And meanwhile I'm struggling so much with it...

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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

But most of them have small tanks (mostly 10 to 20gal) and water is very soft, so those might be the factors.

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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

VintageTurquoise said:


> No actually TDS is a new term to me. I've been in the hobby for 2 years but Idk a thing about it. Would like to hear it from you.
> 
> Also, how do I measure PAR? How much is enough for my 75gal ?


So much advice to follow! It’s because we each have different tanks with different conditions, but the suggestions aren’t really all that different. Perhaps, where you find varying thoughts on individual points, taking an average would be best and then adjust once you gain more experience.

Concerning your question on TDS and PAR values:

TDS is a measure of total dissolved solids (thus, the acronym). Many of us shoot for ppm <200, but 200-400 is not unusual. Over 400 and it may indicate that you are putting too much ‘stuff’ into your tank. Fish will begin to dislike life much above 400. TDS meters are cheap at ~$20. They are also useful when adding new fish. Fish can be stressed if a change greater than about 50 ppm suddenly takes place.

PAR is the total light output of your light and is usually measured at your substrate for the best indication of your light load. PUR is also an important aspect to lighting. I suggest that you search the TPT forums to learn more about this important aspect. You will also find PAR values, as measured by other TPT members, for your light so that you can estimate your PAR value. Here is one link to get you started:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/160396-led-lighting-compendium.html
I would target no more than 40-50 at your substrate for a 6-hour photoperiod. If PAR is higher, you may be able to adjust by cutting down on your photoperiod.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Just a small update: 

Today I pulled the Crinum Calamistratum root out to see what happens, because it hasn't grown much since I got it (more than a YEAR ago). The root looks really weird. Is the plant dying? 

Funny it's been one year but it hasn't died, just remains like that.










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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Greggz said:


> First guess is 10ml Thrive in a 75G is pretty much nothing.
> 
> Plants look like they are starving.
> 
> ...


I'm with Greggz. This looks like a tank full of plants that are suffering from a lack of CO2 while being driven hard by your finnex. I suffered through that during years 3-5 of my tank when I didn't know about this site. What's the lighting period? Full blast @ 6+ hours? If you're not willing to start injecting, perhaps the first step would be to add floaters, cut lighting period like others suggested, or enact the 24/7 cycle. Then, when your plants can breathe a little better, you may see something encouraging. 

Check this site about the 3 Growth Pillars so you can get a handle on the basics.

It may give you some clarity on why people are making the suggestions that they are making.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> I'm with Greggz. This looks like a tank full of plants that are suffering from a lack of CO2 while being driven hard by your finnex. I suffered through that during years 3-5 of my tank when I didn't know about this site. What's the lighting period? Full blast @ 6+ hours? If you're not willing to start injecting, perhaps the first step would be to add floaters, cut lighting period like others suggested, or enact the 24/7 cycle. Then, when your plants can breathe a little better, you may see something encouraging.
> 
> Check this site about the 3 Growth Pillars so you can get a handle on the basics.
> 
> It may give you some clarity on why people are making the suggestions that they are making.


My lighting period is less than 6hr, but I heard that the finnex 247 is not a killer for a 75gal. In the past I had success with the light being on for 8hr and I didn't dose excel as much.

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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Then, may I ask what is your current lighting period and is it set at full strength?


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> Then, may I ask what is your current lighting period and is it set at full strength?


It's 3 to 5 hours every day. Yeah it's on max setting. I think the problem might be some micronutrients.

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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @VintageTurquoise,

Sorry, the Christmas holiday and New Years were busy. Are you using Thrive or Thrive +?


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @VintageTurquoise,
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, the Christmas holiday and New Years were busy. Are you using Thrive or Thrive +?


Did you mean you were late? I just posted a few hours ago  

I'm using Thrive (not plus). 

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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

It looks like the lower part of the crinum roots are rotting, but I don't know why- is your substrate compacted?

And to ease your mind about one thing, the tips of java fern usually look semi-transparent when they're growing out. That symptom is healthy! But the BBA is nasty stuff. Hope you can get rid of it. I don't have much to add in terms of help, struggle to balance my tanks myself still.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

VintageTurquoise said:


> Thank you Roy! This is great advice. I'll follow every step you gave especially water changes.
> 
> This is weird because I used to do fine but now everything looks like a failure, and I don't even know why!
> 
> ...


Hi @VintageTurquoise,

It's been about 3 weeks since you started dosing the Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate), what is happening with new growth (remember any existing leaves prior to dosing the magnesium will not change)?


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @VintageTurquoise,
> 
> 
> 
> It's been about 3 weeks since you started dosing the Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate), what is happening with new growth (remember any existing leaves prior to dosing the magnesium will not change)?


Hi Roy,

Nothing has changed actually. 


In order of the pictures: 

- The water sprite continue to grow new leaves as usual, but at the same time old leaves keep turning yellow and die off. Also covered by brown algae. Not sure what kind though. 

- Anubias leaves still curl down, but they continue to grow new leaves.

- Jave fern: still the same.

- Microswords: they suddenly came back to life after several months being "idle". I thought they died off, but now they came back from nowhere.

- water wisteria stems: I let them float in a breeder box, but their leaves all curl down and they're dying.








































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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

I'm not quite sure if Mg is the factor. But I just got a bottle of Iron and Potassium and started dosing. Let's see what'll happen.

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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @VintageTurquoise,

Actually the new leaves are the only ones to watch, any leaves that were forming or were formed prior to adding the Mg to your dosing routine will likely continue to decline. Looking at the pictures the new Ceratopteris leaves look larger and healthier, the new Anubias leaf looks good and healthy, and yes the new leaves on the microswords look good as well. Magnesium may not be the only issue, but I can assure you it is likely one of the major ones.



> II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.
> 
> C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.
> 
> ...


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @VintageTurquoise,
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the new leaves are the only ones to watch, any leaves that were forming or were formed prior to adding the Mg to your dosing routine will likely continue to decline. Looking at the pictures the new Ceratopteris leaves look larger and healthier, the new Anubias leaf looks good and healthy, and yes the new leaves on the microswords look good as well. Magnesium may not be the only issue, but I can assure you it is likely one of the major ones.


Thank you for the info. The symptoms sound about right, so probably Mg deficiency. I'll continue with epsom salt dosing and see what'll happen.



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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

@Seattle_Aquarist

By the way is it ok if the epsom salt has been exposed to air for a long time? Actually my cousin gave me the salt and the box isn't sealed, it's been exposed to air for months. 

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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @VintageTurquoise,

Like most of the dry fertilizers / salts that we use for aquarium dosing Epsom Salt / magnesium sulfate is stable as long as it has been kept dry; go ahead and use it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

VintageTurquoise said:


> It's 3 to 5 hours every day. Yeah it's on max setting. I think the problem might be some micronutrients.


So is it 3 or 5 hours? Is it the same every day? On a timer?

If it's 3 hours, no wonder plants are dying.

Just saying, if your light is really on only 3 hours a day, micronutrients are the least of your problems. Ferts aren't going to change thing.

With the small amount of low light plants you have, I would turn that light way down and run it for a longer period. At full strength no surprise you have algae and unhappy plants. 

Did you clean the tank well and are you keeping up with larger water changes?


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Greggz said:


> So is it 3 or 5 hours? Is it the same every day? On a timer?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am sorry I didn't get the notifications of your comment. I use an app on my phone so thats probably why.


I clean my tank and do water change every week. I begin to think it might be due to the excess silicate or phosphate in the water. 

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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Update: plants like anubias and water sprite do grow, but they are not thriving. I noticed that as soon as new leaves come out they start to get brown in a few days. 

This is one piece of water sprite covered with weird brown thing. Is it algae?










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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

VintageTurquoise said:


> Update: plants like anubias and water sprite do grow, but they are not thriving. I noticed that as soon as new leaves come out they start to get brown in a few days.
> 
> This is one piece of water sprite covered with weird brown thing. Is it algae?
> 
> ...


Hi @VintageTurquoise,

If you are talking about the leaves that is caused by diatoms (sometimes called brown algae). Adding an Otocinclus to the tank will help get rid of it. I usually have one Otocinclus per 10-20 gallons of tank volume because diatoms are an issue for me as well.

If you are talking about the roots, they are looking very healthy. There are lots of fine 'root hairs' coming off the main fibrous roots.


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## VintageTurquoise (Dec 23, 2018)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi @VintageTurquoise,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you! Good to hear that.

However, I'm not sure if it's the diatom around the warer sprite's old leaves, but looks like the old leaves got "cut off" or eaten at the tips (first pic). 

Also, Wisteria looks like they're starving (second pic).

Third pic: anubias keeps growing new leaves which is good. 
























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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi @VintageTurquoise

Those new Anubias leaves are looking better than the ones from a couple of months ago.


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