# PMFED -- Poor man's Flourish Excel drops ??



## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Hi, we've discussed this before. the traces in Excel can be duplicated, but the carbon cannot. afferently it's some super secret recipe method rivaling Coca~Cola. you can reduce your carbon introduction costs by simply using Co2 with a trace fertilizer instead of Excel. or you can do what I do and buy Excel 2 Liters at a time, and save on the volume discount.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Check out here:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...lourish-excel.html?highlight=Excel+ingredient

for the ingredient.

Search Excel Ingredient, I think this has been talked about, but not done.


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Check out here. Apparently some folks have successfully used gluteraldehyde instead of Excel.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Triple Post!!!


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## orti (May 9, 2007)

Thank you, THAT'S WHAT I CALL A QUICK RESPONSE!! 

J.


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## ffoeg (Oct 24, 2009)

I make my own Flourish Excel PMFE and the recipe is very simple and cheap!

For $15 I can make enough to dose Lake Ontario.

Good chance you may already have an excellent source of carbon already in your cupboards.

Carbon is something that every living thing including plants need to stay alive.

Human beings eat a lot of it every day. (I do)

The carbon that humans ingest is in the form of carbohydrates.

What is carbohydrates?

........................................ sugar.


Check the wikipedia link:
(disallowed - you will have to google it)

Where do most carbohydrates that humans eat come from?

....................................... plants


What I do is purchase the most basic and unrefined sugars I can find.

I used two different and reasonably cheap products:


1/ Maple Syrup --------- comes from trees ---- a plant

2/ Blackstrap molasses --- comes from cane ---- a plant


They both contain an enormous amount of carbon!

They have very simple sugars (carbon) that plants can use!

Not only do they have carbon.

They have trace elements in the exact proportions that a plant requires to live.

Sap is the plants version of blood.

All the energy (sugar/carbon) and nutrients that a plant requires are transported in the sap.

Check out the nutrient and carbon (carbohydrates) list for both molasses and maple syrup here:

Molasses
(disallowed - you will have to google it)

Maple Syrup
(disallowed - you will have to google it)

What's the best kind of carbon to give a plant?

The same kind of carbon that comes from a plant in the first place!

Maple Sap is reduced 40 times to make maple syrup by removing the water.

Reverse the process to make a solution equvalent to Maple Sap.

Here are the concentrations I use and dose.

1 teaspoon Maple Syrup

1 teaspoon Blackstrap Molasses

In 250 ml bottle.

I dose 5ml every second day with the trace elements.

It works!

Almost all my plants started growing faster and ALL the algae disappeared after 2 weeks.

BTW, I also use diy co2.

I did notice however, that some hornwort I had, stopped growing so fast and does not look as bushy as it used to.

Everything else looks better and bigger.

I also dose the recommended macros

I do a 30% WC every week.


ffoeg


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## ffoeg (Oct 24, 2009)

Oh yes, that's 5ml every second day in 30 gal.


ffoeg


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

The above two posts are wrong in so many ways that I cannot fathom where to start correcting.

Blood is required to sustain human life. Why don't people just drink blood instead of eating food and drinking water? 

Sarcasm aside, sugar would be much cheaper than maple syrup, but you don't see many people dosing sugar as a carbon source...


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

I have been using gluteraldehyde for about 5 months with no issues.


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## ffoeg (Oct 24, 2009)

If you think about this holistically then where does the water that is in rivers and lakes come from?

Rain.

The rain comes down on a vast landscape surrounding the rivers and lakes.

Good chance each rain drop lands on a tree leaf or plant before being absorbed in the ground and through the roots.

Anything in or on that plant that can easily be dissolved, will be.

What is inside the plant and roots that can easily be dissolved?

Sugars.

So what ends up in the rivers and lakes?

Sugar. ..............> carbon.

So why aren't the oceans full of sugar?

Because it gets used up by the plants and other organisms.

If you don't want to try this it's ok by me.

I have seen beneficial results so far and will continue.

Also, please don't try this and blame me if you have a tank disaster.

Blackstrap mollases is actually sold as a fertiliser for land plants.

It is beneficial for the soil!

Imagine that!

Sugar/carbons is good for soil!

google it!

I suspect that Maple Syrup is too expensive to use for land plants

But..... it's way cheaper than Flourish Excel!

Please let me know what happens if anyone elser tries this.

Its the only way to build consensus and get past the naysayers.


Regards


ffoeg


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## ffoeg (Oct 24, 2009)

Also try smelling some Flourish Excel.

What does it smell like?

Molasses?

If you are feeling very adventurous you could try tasting it.

Make certain there are no warnings on the bottle first!


ffoeg


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Also try smelling some Flourish Excel.
> 
> What does it smell like?
> 
> ...


HOLY COW! H-O-L-Y C-O-W!!!

This has to be one of the most trollfull troll in the history of trolls!

Not only are these claims completely ridiculous, they have become dangerous.

Excel is a form of gluteraldehyde -a cold sterilant and an embalming fluid. You will do yourself nothing but harm by tasting this dangerous chemical.

My suggestion to ffoeg is to abandon this thread. Your claims are outright false and have crossed the line into dangerousness. You have been flagged as a troll. Any more outlandishness will result in your account being banned.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Be careful about trying to go cheap by making your own Excel. Glutaraldehyde is a very dangerous chemical, that should not be handled unless you know exactly how to do so. The concentration in Excel is low, making it acceptable to use, but medical grade Glutaraldehyde is far too strong and dangerous for us to play with. Even the vapors are dangerous, and at a remarkably low level.

Excel isn't very expensive when purchased by the gallon from BigAl's or Dr.s Foster & Smith. Then you are not risking your life to save a few bucks.


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## redman88 (Dec 12, 2008)

Momotaro said:


> HOLY COW! H-O-L-Y C-O-W!!!
> 
> This has to be one of the most trollfull troll in the history of trolls!
> 
> ...



from what i read ffoeg doesn't use gluteraldehyde he uses molasses


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi all,

I have used Glutaraldehyde for well over a year and have found it works just like Excel did for me. My primary use is as an algacide but it also provides supplemental carbon in my aquariums. I mix my own starting with 50% concentration Biological Grade Glut which I store in our garage refrigerator (marked as poison of course). I have provided both the concentrate and diluted Glut to other members of GSAS who have used it successfully. 

The most time consuming part was trying find out what the concentration of Glut was in Excel. Don't even ask how long it took me to find this reference. I did a lot of digging for almost a month and found posts on countless different forums. I found guesses of anywhere between 1% to 3% concentration of Glutaraldehyde in Excel. This is the only thread I was able to find where testing provided the results. A member at indianaquariumhobbyist.com worked in a lab and tested the Glut concentration in Excel and found it to be 1.5%. The post is a little over 1/3 the way down the page, dated Wed Apr 12, 2006 9:09 PM. 

The bottom line is: I purchased the 1 liter 50% biological grade for $23.00. My shipping (including the UPS hazmat charge) was $32.24 for a total of $55.24. The concentration of glutaraldehyde in Excel is 1.5%. The 1 liter 50% concentration has allowed me to make 33.333 liters of 1.5% glutaraldehyde at a cost of $1.657 per liter. Excel typically costs me $20 plus freight for a two liter bottle. Seems like a good deal to me, plus it allows me the option of making stronger concentrations so my doses are smaller.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

So he dumps the molasses and syrup into a water bottle and squirts it into his tanks? In my humble opinion without first hand proof I can't believe that works even half as well as Excel. How is he breaking the complex strains down? While this wouldn't hurt your fish or plants I doubt it does as well as he thinks, low light plants will do ok without a steady carbon source as long as they have a good nutrients source.

BTW: Hoppy is absolutely correct.

- Brad


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

redman88 said:


> from what i read ffoeg doesn't use gluteraldehyde he uses molasses


Maybe they can use it and taste it themselves, then tell the rest of us what it taste(burns like hades) like

Only a dolt would even suggest tasting it/let alone taking a big wiff.

Read the MSDS on gluteraldehyde..
Reduced carbon such as sucrose can be used by plants, eg in Tissue culture, and survive a long time without photosynthesis, but adding sugar to an aquarium is not even remotely close.

Anyway, this thread is about gluteraldehyde/Excel, Easy Carbo etc.
It can be DIY'ed and folks have done it.

Personally, I like CO2 gas, it's easier and dose the job better.
Excel is useful for folks having troubles with CO2, or an algae issues, which is also a CO2 problem typically. And perhaps a few that like slower growth than CVO2/low light, but more than non CO2/carbon enrichment.

Works well for smaller tanks etc.
The product is very toxic, I'm even wondering if folks should even use it for aquariums..........the vapor is none too good.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

Ok the club sells the generic Excel but Tom says it's toxic? I know that if I double the generic that my fish will go to the top of the tank for oxygen. So I stay with what Seachem says to use for their product with no problem. Fumes humm that's a new one. I don't breath a lot of stuff when I use it for I find I am allergic to most things. So far not generic. 
Tom what made you change your mind on this product?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Your club will be selling a diluted version probably only 1.5% to 2.0% (hopefully) of glute and the rest is water so you wouldn't be smelling anything it's the handling of the undiluted chemical that's going to get you. Not to mention the fact that double dosing Excel doesn't make my fish gasp for air, that fact alone would make me stop using the stuff your club makes.

- Brad


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## Crystalview (Aug 10, 2007)

I don't think Tom has had complaints from selling the stuff. I was not going to say I bought it from him but he is part of the club. Hope writing this is ok. oops if not.
I may have picked up a bottle that was not diluted. The viscosity is a bit different then in the gallon. I did stop using that bottle but the gal seems ok. I have Discus and they can be sensitive to additive so there may be many reasons they react the way they did.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think my point is long term exposure risk are not tested for this use for humans.

If you use some, here and there, have a small tank, good ventilation in the home, not an issue. If you have a tiny room without much circulation in the air, dose 2-4 tanks daily.........sleep in there, etc..........

I have 5 good sized tanks, but do not use it daily for such reasoning.
But I understand risk assessment better than most aquarist.

Having said that, I'll go take my chances now on the I80/101 drive O death and carnage:icon_mrgr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Scotty (Nov 15, 2008)

I have been using Cidex(it comes with an activator on top, throw that away, DO NOT USE!) from a local source for about a month now. I have to say that it is very similar if not the same as Excel. The gallon I purchased lists the solution at 2.4% Glutaraldehyde and 97.6% inert. I can say that I have had no problems with it so far, and has done a great job in my tank. Mostly for a algaecide. As far as long term effects on humans- I would not mess with the 50/50, 25/75 mixture. I am going to stick to the low percentage Cidex(which is no different than Seachems Excel), and I would recommend doing the same for everyone else. Its too risky to try and dilute yourself. :icon_excl

Flourish Excel is a 2.5% solution of Glutaraldehyde.
http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/FlourishExcel.doc.pdf

Cidex is listed as a 2.55% solution of Glutaraldehyde.
http://www.sterrad.com/Customer_Support/us...ivated_msds.pdf


Here is a few more links....

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...iasts/31615-glutaraldehyde-instead-excel.html

http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/communit...asc&start=0


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## Scotty (Nov 15, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Having said that, I'll go take my chances now on the I80/101 drive O death and carnage:icon_mrgr
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr




roud:roud: I hear ya on that one!!! roud:roud:


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## fibertech (Apr 29, 2009)

This is what I use, don't have to mix anything

http://www.mohawkmedicalmall.com/Merchant2/PROD.php?Product_Code=MTX 1400


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Sportdriver said:


> Flourish Excel is a 2.5% solution of Glutaraldehyde.
> http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/FlourishExcel.doc.pdf
> 
> http://indianaquariumhobbyist.com/communit...asc&start=0


So one link you claim is 2.5% the other clearly states and is correct(1.5%).



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Scotty (Nov 15, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> So one link you claim is 2.5% the other clearly states and is correct(1.5%).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That not what I claim. That is what Seachem Claims. It was on there MSDS sheet at one time. I am just adding some info so others can decipher for themselves. And yes someone on the indian forum did some testing and supposedly came up with 1.5%. Take it as you will, as I believe the 1.5% is the correct percentage. Just trying to help. roud:


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

I find it fascinating that Seachem has changed the composition of Flourish Excel. 
The new MSDS 
http://www.seachem.com/support/MSDS/FlourishExcel.doc.pdf 
(Date Prepared: 28 September 2009) shows - Aqueous solution of polycycloglutaracetal.

An older MSDS 
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...&gl=us&sig=AFQjCNHJAiIlm1YizWcjDWh5ozK5RtWXlA

Date Prepared: 07 July 2006 shows Aqueous solution of glutaraldehyde

What I can't find is the MSDS from 2008, even in the WayBack machine. 
That one listed a x.x% Aqueous solution of glutaraldehyde 
Such is life when one attempts to save money.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Not being a chemist, I have no idea if glutaraldehyde and polycycloglutaracetal are the same substance. Does anyone here know? Also, my memory is that Seachem has always said that Excel is a glutarXXXXXX polymer, not just glutaraldehyde and water. Again, as I recall, one of the forum members was the first to say it was just glutaraldahyde, not Seachem. Perhaps the best answer to this problem is to limit ourselves to using Excel as directed on the bottle - no 2X, 3X dosing. Just thinking out loud.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glutaraldehyde

*Algaecidal activity*

A polymerized isomer of glutaraldehyde known as polycycloglutaracetal is a fertilizer for aquatic plants. It is claimed that it provides a bioavailable source of carbon for higher plants that is not available to algae. Though not marketed as such due to federal regulations, the biocidal effect of glutaraldehyde kills most algae at concentrations of 0.5 - 5.0 ppm. These levels are not harmful to most aquatic fauna and flora. Adverse reactions have been observed by some aquarists at these concentrations in some aquatic mosses, liverworts, and vascular plants. [4]

*References*

4. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/AquariumPlants.html


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Also, my memory is that Seachem has always said that Excel is a glutarXXXXXX polymer, not just glutaraldehyde and water


My recollection is the same. I can never remember Seachem claiming Excel was simply gluteraldehyde and water. 

I avoid Wikipedia


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