# Just cycled a tank with new aquasoil in 4 days!!



## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

dont believe it cycled means fish in and sability takesz a while was your canister filter new?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

I believe you need to have fish in it and alive for several weeks and with ammonia level at 0 ppm. I would be cautious with your soil because the organic content may leak into the "system" after several weeks.


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## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

set up is nice but u need to get some fish in there that u dont {i cant beleive im goin to say it} care about to get the filter working it should take 1 month at least


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## they call me bruce (Feb 13, 2011)

no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled


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## kharma (Sep 20, 2010)

they call me bruce said:


> set up is nice but u need to get some fish in there that u dont {i cant beleive im goin to say it} care about to get the filter working it should take 1 month at least


1 month? i feel like that is way overkill... seachem's stability works pretty decent if you put like 2-3 fish in it and dose the whole bottle in a week. Will be completely cycled in about a week and a half


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## sick lid (Jan 13, 2008)

Would be nice to see you do a fishless cycle instead of using fish. You end up with better karma.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

sick lid said:


> Would be nice to see you do a fishless cycle instead of using fish. You end up with better karma.



You really don't not need to put any fish in harms way to cycle the tank. Just need the tank water to age for a week or 2. Then, put couple of fish in there. Feed them lightly. The ammonia level will not reach to a dangerous level before the bacteria begins to colonize on the filter media. You just need time. The type of filter you use will also affect how fast the bacteria can grow. I personally prefer the wet/dry method.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Wow....

No need to panic, the tank IS cycled. 
I do not need to put fish in the tank, nor would I ever put fish in an uncycled tank and use them as an ammonia source when you can easily cycle a tank so so so many other ways. 

Thank you both, they call me bruce, and tetra73, but aquasoil is full of ammonia, so no I don't need to put any fish in the tank. 

also "no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled," makes no sense, no ammonia does not mean too many nitrated. 
No ammonia, no nitrite does mean cycled, assuming there was ammonia in the first place. 
I assume you guys don't know about aquasoil, believe me I'm sure its cycled, I've done fishless cycling with aquasoil many times, but its usually taken one to two weeks. 

This time it was much faster because I cranked the temperature up very high, and all the crypts I left floating at the surface were covered in beneficial bacteria, and they soaked up lots of ammo and nitrite.


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## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

You'll know its cycled if you are reading 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and some nitrate. If they are all at 0, your plants most likely absorbed everything up.


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## Miira (Feb 15, 2011)

Ok, _fully_ stock the tank tomorrow and report back in 2 weeks. :biggrin:


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

they call me bruce said:


> no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled


/facepalm


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

So the OP believes the filter media is fully colonized with bacteria in 4 days? I wouldn't even know where to begin...


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

sampster5000 said:


> You'll know its cycled if you are reading 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite and some nitrate. If they are all at 0, your plants most likely absorbed everything up.


Agreed - what are your exact test results?


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## karatekid14 (Jan 16, 2011)

It takes awhile to get going, my 5g had such a small biomass (fishless cycle) that it took 3 weeks to even register ammonia ect. I that is kind of an anomaly but it might not be registered yet, soo wait.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

You guys are fervent! 

Somehow I get 14 posts all from people that don't understand that I reused loads of plants from another tank covered with bacteria, and aquasoil has more ammonia in it than fish would ever provide.

I didn't post this because I had doubts of if it was cycled, I posted it just to say, "Look, it doesn't always take two weeks for aquasoil to leech all of its ammonia, if you just throw in a ton of floating plants and crank up the temperature, it can be done in 4 days." 

I KNOW the tank is cycled, I've cycled tanks plenty of times, my test results are irrelevant. 




karatekid14 said:


> It takes awhile to get going, my 5g had such a small biomass (fishless cycle) that it took 3 weeks to even register ammonia ect. I that is kind of an anomaly but it might not be registered yet, soo wait.


It is not an anomaly, if you did a fishless cycle that took 3 weeks for ammonia to register then you did it wrong - you can just add pure ammonia to 4ppm and it will register instantly. 



soc200 said:


> So the OP believes the filter media is fully colonized with bacteria in 4 days? I wouldn't even know where to begin...


Where do you want to begin then cause you're acting like you know something I dont. I don't believe the filter media is fully colonized with bacteria. I know the tank, including substrate, plants, filter, over all, has a large enough bacterial population to reduce my ammonia and nitrite from 4-5 ppm to 0 after 4 days.



Miira said:


> Ok, fully stock the tank tomorrow and report back in 2 weeks.


Why would I report back in 2 weeks? A fully stocked tank wont have a higher bioload than cycling with aquasoil has already prepared my tank for. 
aquasoil leeches more nh3 than 30 goldfish - I can fully stock the tank at any time - in fact if I wait any longer my biological filtration will probably be getting weaker by the day because the ammonia spike is gone - now the bacteria are on top of it they will only start to die off as there is less and less food available.



I think everyone is not getting the fact that the tank had ammonia and nitrite readings for the first three days.
I didn't just go la la la, test on day 4, oh look no readings tank must be cycled. >_<


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## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

lol. 

did you use the new amazonia aquasoil? If so, how do you like it? I had my tank cycle w/ brand new amazonia (the old kind, just unused) and it cycled in a few days too using matured filters. Will have to try this high temp. method.


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## sick lid (Jan 13, 2008)

Chlorophile said:


> You guys are fervent!
> 
> Somehow I get 14 posts all from people that don't understand that I reused loads of plants from another tank covered with bacteria, and aquasoil has more ammonia in it than fish would ever provide.
> 
> ...


I think everyone missed the word "nitrate" in your posts. I know I did.
Hey, I just put synthetic oil in my '98 civic, now it does the quarter mile in under 12 seconds.


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## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

You got this many posts because the majority of what you said has been proven wrong and you did not give enough evidence to support it all. New hobbyists will read your post and see it as fact and have a terrible experience and possibly give up on the hobby and never return. If you think that you have come up with something and state it to the world, be ready to get bashed from every direction. That is how science works. If you state something be ready to fully support it. If we could cycle tanks in 3-4 days simply by throwing in plants from another cycled aquarium, everyone would be doing this.


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## sick lid (Jan 13, 2008)

sampster5000 said:


> You got this many posts because the majority of what you said has been proven wrong and you did not give enough evidence to support it all. New hobbyists will read your post and see it as fact and have a terrible experience and possibly give up on the hobby and never return. If you think that you have come up with something and state it to the world, be ready to get bashed from every direction. That is how science works. If you state something be ready to fully support it. If we could cycle tanks in 3-4 days simply by throwing in plants from another cycled aquarium, everyone would be doing this.


Better yet, support it in your original post, rather than reading all the replies with such disbelief.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> Wow....
> 
> No need to panic, the tank IS cycled.
> I do not need to put fish in the tank, nor would I ever put fish in an uncycled tank and use them as an ammonia source when you can easily cycle a tank so so so many other ways.
> ...



Aqua soil will leech ammonia for way more than 4 days.... So it's not possible that got it cycled in 4 days.... Bacteria just doesn't grow that fast...


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

jkan0228 said:


> Aqua soil will leech ammonia for way more than 4 days.... So it's not possible that got it cycled in 4 days.... Bacteria just doesn't grow that fast...


There is ALWAYS ammonia going into your tank, but if your bacteria converts it or your plants consume it, it doesn't matter. 

This thread is entertaining as hell.


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## DishyFishy (Jul 17, 2011)

Noob question here.. but I was under the impression when you first start a tank a little ways into it everything will read 0, then it will spike, then it will read 0 again.. which takes nearly a month?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

DishyFishy said:


> Noob question here.. but I was under the impression when you first start a tank a little ways into it everything will read 0, then it will spike, then it will read 0 again.. which takes nearly a month?


aquasoil spikes instantly.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> There is ALWAYS ammonia going into your tank, but if your bacteria converts it or your plants consume it, it doesn't matter.
> 
> This thread is entertaining as hell.


Guess I should shut up about things that I'm not THAT sure about. Haha


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

A newly set up, heavily planted tank will often not have an ammonia or a nitrite spike, because the plant have the needed bacteria on them, as the op said.


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## sick lid (Jan 13, 2008)

@ OverStocked: but is nitrate going to read zero too?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

sick lid said:


> @ OverStocked: but is nitrate going to read zero too?


Plants eat nitrate like candy, when happy.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

livingword26 said:


> A newly set up, heavily planted tank will often not have an ammonia or a nitrite spike, because the plant have the needed bacteria on them, as the op said.


It is mostly because plants CONSUME ammonia very readily.


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## NStarr (Jun 3, 2011)

tetra73 said:


> You really don't not need to put any fish in harms way to cycle the tank. Just need the tank water to age for a week or 2. Then, put couple of fish in there. Feed them lightly. The ammonia level will not reach to a dangerous level before the bacteria begins to colonize on the filter media. You just need time. The type of filter you use will also affect how fast the bacteria can grow. I personally prefer the wet/dry method.


Aging the water does nothing. An ammonia source needs to be added for the tank to cycle. Regularly, it takes 3-6 weeks for a nice bacteria colony to establish. I don't buy in to all of this crap that is advertised to add bacteria. :icon_roll


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## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

OverStocked said:


> There is ALWAYS ammonia going into your tank, but if your bacteria converts it or your plants consume it, it doesn't matter.
> 
> This thread is entertaining as hell.


This was my favorite line so far...

"no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled"


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

NStarr said:


> Aging the water does nothing. An ammonia source needs to be added for the tank to cycle. Regularly, it takes 3-6 weeks for a nice bacteria colony to establish. I don't buy in to all of this crap that is advertised to add bacteria. :icon_roll


Sorry that I ask this but still new to cycling. But how would you add ammonia for the tank to cycle? Would you basically let fish food rot in there and something along the lines of that?


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## NStarr (Jun 3, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Sorry that I ask this but still new to cycling. But how would you add ammonia for the tank to cycle? Would you basically let fish food rot in there and something along the lines of that?


Anything that adds ammonia. From rotting food to fish to even urinating the tank (although I don't recommend that).


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## DetMich (Mar 18, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Sorry that I ask this but still new to cycling. But how would you add ammonia for the tank to cycle? Would you basically let fish food rot in there and something along the lines of that?


You can use pure ammonia. (ex. Ace Janitorial Strength Ammonia)


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

sick lid said:


> @ OverStocked: but is nitrate going to read zero too?


I have to observe my nitrate levels constantly because my plants eat it up like a fat man in a buffet. I had around 40ppm of nitrates around tuesday and I thought "oh hey I have too much, I'll just slow down my dosing" by Sunday I had near 0 ppm. :\



NStarr said:


> Anything that adds ammonia. From rotting food to fish to even urinating the tank (although I don't recommend that).


Our urine isn't really just ammonia per se, it's urea/uric acid along with other toxic organic chemicals.



sampster5000 said:


> This was my favorite line so far...
> 
> "no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled"


Jersey shore, what're ya' gonna do? haha


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

NStarr said:


> Anything that adds ammonia. From rotting food to fish to even urinating the tank (although I don't recommend that).


What if I had only a 3L bag of ASA? In a 11.4G. 
Haha I think I'll stick with fish food....


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## kharma (Sep 20, 2010)

tetra73 said:


> You really don't not need to put any fish in harms way to cycle the tank. Just need the tank water to age for a week or 2. Then, put couple of fish in there. Feed them lightly. The ammonia level will not reach to a dangerous level before the bacteria begins to colonize on the filter media. You just need time. The type of filter you use will also affect how fast the bacteria can grow. I personally prefer the wet/dry method.


Some fish such as certain types of danio's are some of the hardiest fish there are and would be fine in a cycle....

Put a piece of shrimp in the tank and let it sit for a few days...


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## TeamTeal (Mar 31, 2010)

dam... the thread is slowing down already


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## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

Would a few plants have enough bacteria to jump start a tank? I know even with using some filter media from an established filter it still take some time to cycle and for the new filter to handle the bioload.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I appreciate overstocked's comments - If someone sane hadn't commented I think I might have lost my mind!!!

and just cause a fish is hardy doesnt mean ammonia doesnt burn its gills!


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

Chlorophile said:


> I appreciate overstocked's comments - If someone sane hadn't commented I think I might have lost my mind!!!
> 
> and just cause a fish is hardy doesnt mean ammonia doesnt burn its gills!


When I read the first couple posts it was almost as if I was back in my gen. chem class.

"Water isn't a chemical!" 

The professor literally walked out of the classroom and left for the day.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Impressive, Chlorophile!

Temperature does have an effect on nitrifying bacteria growth rates. A quick Google search turns up several papers showing you were very close to optimal. You're the first I've seen to use that to their advantage.


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## waya81 (Aug 13, 2010)

Interesting experiment, I may try it when I am ready to set up my shrimp rack. If amazonia has so much ammonia in it, and it takes so long to cycle, then why is it toted as one of the best substrates?


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

sick lid said:


> Would be nice to see you do a fishless cycle instead of using fish. You end up with better karma.


+1 

Totally agree...Patience is a VIRTUE!!!!


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Sorry that I ask this but still new to cycling. But how would you add ammonia for the tank to cycle? Would you basically let fish food rot in there and something along the lines of that?


There are several ways to do this. I will list my two favs.
1. Pure Ammonia from the bottle (not sudsy)
2. Shrimp (inside panyhose) in the tank.


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## Rainbow Fish (Jun 3, 2011)

Aquasoil Is great stuff isn't it? Sounds like you got a perfect temp to speed things up.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

sick lid said:


> I think everyone missed the word "nitrate" in your posts. I know I did.
> Hey, I just put synthetic oil in my '98 civic, now it does the quarter mile in under 12 seconds.


You dont have to mention nitrate to prove a tank is cycled.
As soon as I put plants in the tank I dosed, so voila, nitrate - why would I test for it since it won't prove anything.
You just need to be able to remove ammonia and nitrite - who cares if you get a nitrate reading, either by waterchanges, happy plants, anaerobic denitrification, there are ways that you can have no nitrate - I don't bother testing nitrate when cycling because that test takes so long.
All you need is to test ammonia every day, when it hits zero, test nitrite, if theres no nitrite then its done.



sampster5000 said:


> You got this many posts because the majority of what you said has been proven wrong and you did not give enough evidence to support it all. New hobbyists will read your post and see it as fact and have a terrible experience and possibly give up on the hobby and never return. If you think that you have come up with something and state it to the world, be ready to get bashed from every direction. That is how science works. If you state something be ready to fully support it. If we could cycle tanks in 3-4 days simply by throwing in plants from another cycled aquarium, everyone would be doing this.


Well I don't see why people need to bash something that is actually happening, its not like this was a theory or anything. 

You guys may be getting hung up on the bacteria side of cycling. 
Yes technically that is all there is to it, but plants absorb ammonia too, and in very low pH tanks the bacteria are pretty much non existant so a cycled low pH tank might be cycled only because of plant mass that can absorb ammonia. 

bacteria double in population quickly - if there was already a good population on my plants then who's to say that doubling 6 times in 4 days wasn't enough to meet the bacteria demand, maybe the plants came from a tank with a very high bioload, maybe the tank had no filtration so all the bacteria were on plants and substrate? You don't really know how many bacteria their were do you? So you can't say whether or not they could or couldn't reach the required population in 4 days. 


How science works is I provide my results and if you think they are impossible given what you know, then you have to consider outside variables might be playing a role, or some information you weren't aware of is taking place. 
It's not all about just being bashed by people who don't understand. 

If new hobbyists abandon the hobby because they lose some fish thinking their tank is cycled without doing tests or having an ammonia source then that is regrettable. I know I would do far more research than read one post before I started up a fish tank - and if I only did that small amount of research maybe I am a whimsical person and I should quit the hobby as quickly as I started it.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

kharma said:


> Some fish such as certain types of danio's are some of the hardiest fish there are and would be fine in a cycle....
> 
> Put a piece of shrimp in the tank and let it sit for a few days...


Why would you want to burn their gills and prevent them from being able to breath properly for their entire lives? 
Especially if you can just, as you said, put a piece of shrimp in the tank. :icon_frow


radioman said:


> Would a few plants have enough bacteria to jump start a tank? I know even with using some filter media from an established filter it still take some time to cycle and for the new filter to handle the bioload.


Just a few probably wouldn't - I added a lot of plants. 
And how much bacteria is on them depends on the bioload of the tank they came from - bacteria will eventually meet their needed population in almost all cases - where they decide to live is irrelevant, and much of them will live on plants and substrate - it could easily be as much as would live in your filter. 





waya81 said:


> Interesting experiment, I may try it when I am ready to set up my shrimp rack. If amazonia has so much ammonia in it, and it takes so long to cycle, then why is it toted as one of the best substrates?


Its toted as one of the best substrates because its nutritious and lowers the pH, something great for plants and certain shrimp. 
Most people aren't really in a huge rush to get their tanks cycled, and plants have their best growth spurt typically while there is so much ammonia and nitrite in the water so its nothing to rush if you want your plants to grow in. 



jkan0228 said:


> What if I had only a 3L bag of ASA? In a 11.4G.
> Haha I think I'll stick with fish food....


The good thing about cycling with aquasoil is that since there is so much ammonia, your bacteria will be prepared for a very high bioload, most likely more than your eventual bioload from fish will be. 
A 3l bag is probably not enough for a 10 gallon though as far as your aquascape is concerned. 



DarkCobra said:


> Impressive, Chlorophile!
> 
> Temperature does have an effect on nitrifying bacteria growth rates. A quick Google search turns up several papers showing you were very close to optimal. You're the first I've seen to use that to their advantage.


Thank you, I did large waterchanges every day as well, which not only takes out a lot of the ammonia that aquasoil leeches but it helps to keep the pH up, the nitrifying bacteria don't operate very well in the acidic water aquasoil creates, that combined with the temperature and over a pound of cryptocorynes made for a very speedy cycle.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Yea I know. I'm just using a left over 3L bag with the rest being fluval stratum. Why is it that you need to make water changes? Isn't more ammonia better for the bacteria? So it grows faster? Sorry to hijack.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Yea I know. I'm just using a left over 3L bag with the rest being fluval stratum. Why is it that you need to make water changes? Isn't more ammonia better for the bacteria? So it grows faster? Sorry to hijack.


Ammonia is the food source, and the bacteria's goal is to reach a population where they can eat all of whats available. 
If I were cycling with say one brine shrimp, I wouldn't want to take out any ammonia because I wouldn't be forcing a large enough population of bacteria. 
Luckily, aquasoil makes loads of ammonia, more than my fish would ever be able to supply the bacteria with. 
Doing water changes just means my water can be ammonia free as quickly as possible . 
More ammonia doesn't make them grow any faster - higher temperatures and a good pH does make them grow faster- they like a pH close to 8. 
Aquasoil lowers pH, and a pH under 6 pretty much prevents nitrifying bacteria from operating.
My tap water pH is 7.6 so doing water changes helps to keep the pH up, that also accelerates my bacteria's growth.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

So why would you wanna make your water ammonia free when your nitrifying bacteria isn't establish yet? 

Water changes just pretty much just raise the ph to an optimum level for the bacteria to multiply right?


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> So why would you wanna make your water ammonia free when your nitrifying bacteria isn't establish yet?
> 
> Water changes just pretty much just raise the ph to an optimum level for the bacteria to multiply right?


a 50 percent waterchange wont get out all of the ammonia, I just want the tank cycled quicker.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> a 50 percent waterchange wont get out all of the ammonia, I just want the tank cycled quicker.


By raising the ph to an optimum or elf or the bacteria! Haha now I get it.... However. If aqua soil didn't lower the ph then I wouldn't need to do a water change right? Since I only have less than half a 3L bag in a 11.4g. Can such a little amount effect the water by that much?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

sampster5000 said:


> This was my favorite line so far...
> 
> "no fish means no ammonia means to many nitrates means not cycled"


ada aquasoil leaches ammonia like I drink beer. Please, please understand the whole topic before chiming in(rudely at that). 

The aquasoil is the ammonia source.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Yes a 3l bag can lower your ph.
I still recommend the water changes if you don't want it to take weeks. 

The waterchange is to get ammonia out - just not all of it. 
Technically your bacteria are "established" If you have ammonia to nitrite bacteria and nitrite to nitrate bacteria. 
The question is how much ammonia do you need them to be able to neutralize in a given timeframe?
The answer is probably not 7 ppm, and thats about what the aquasoil gave me.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Ok so the tank is basically cycled when you add ammonia to the tank, food, fish etc. And the next day you find the ammonia and nitrite as 0 and some nitrate right?


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

OverStocked said:


> ada aquasoil leaches ammonia like I drink beer. Please, please understand the whole topic before chiming in(rudely at that).
> 
> The aquasoil is the ammonia source.


I believe he's just quoting that because of how stupid that statement was.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

OverStocked said:


> It is mostly because plants CONSUME ammonia very readily.


Then they must not really do much for the cycling of the tank.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

livingword26 said:


> Then they must not really do much for the cycling of the tank.


They help hamper ammonia spikes, etc.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

DerangedCorgi said:


> They help hamper ammonia spikes, etc.


Then what is responsible for the 4 day cycle, besides th e 84 degree temp?


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

My tank took less than a week to cycle fishless. It was full of black 15 year old water and old mulm with lots of anaerobic bacterium in the filter. Stunk like a skunk when I bailed it all out and cleaned out the filter canister. Once I scraped off the glass and got the water clear enough to see through, I just let the filter run for a week. The anaerobes died off quickly or converted back to aerobic in a few days of water filtration and surface agitation bringing in lots of O2. Put a few plants from my LFS in and got some fish the next day. No ammonia or nitrites ever and I didn't test for nitrates as I figured the plants were going to suck any of it up.

This is NOT the recommended method to revive an old stagnate tank, but it worked for me because I didn't want to disturb the nice fertilized substrate w/mulm in it. 

I believe the OP as bacteria multiply incredibly fast and can form extensive bio-films when the conditions are optimum.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

audioaficionado said:


> My tank took less than a week to cycle fishless. It was full of black 15 year old water and old mulm with lots of anaerobic bacterium in the filter. Stunk like a skunk when I bailed it all out and cleaned out the filter canister. Once I scraped off the glass and got the water clear enough to see through, I just let the filter run for a week. The anaerobes died off quickly or converted back to aerobic in a few days of water filtration and surface agitation bringing in lots of O2. Put a few plants from my LFS in and got some fish the next day. No ammonia or nitrites ever and I didn't test for nitrates as I figured the plants were going to suck any of it up.
> 
> This is NOT the recommended method to revive an old stagnate tank, but it worked for me because I didn't want to disturb the nice fertilized substrate w/mulm in it.
> 
> I believe the OP as bacteria multiply incredibly fast and can form extensive bio-films when the conditions are optimum.


Yup, I cycled my tank within a week or so when I got some filter mulm/old substrate from my larger tank. And with a high plant mass I was getting 0 ammonia/nitrites and I had to dose some extra fertz for the plants because they were sucking everything up.



livingword26 said:


> Then what is responsible for the 4 day cycle, besides th e 84 degree temp?


Hampering ammonia spikes != no ammonia. It keeps ammonia at a stable level instead of having a giant eye burning amount in your tanks.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

> livingword26
> Then what is responsible for the 4 day cycle, besides th e 84 degree temp?





> DerangedCorg
> Hampering ammonia spikes != no ammonia. It keeps ammonia at a stable level instead of having a giant eye burning amount in your tanks.


So, 84 degree temps, and keeping Ammonia low caused a 4 day cycle? I don't think so. You can say that the plants keep the Ammonia down, but without the Nitrifying bacteria, no nitrates are created, no cycle occurs. It was the bacteria that came in with the plants that caused they cycle to happen so rapidly.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I still don't understand a 4 day cycle with as, it took me close to a month for mine and I added plants from a 5 year old tank. My ammo was at dangerous levels the whole time.


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## DerangedCorgi (Oct 15, 2010)

Edit: -you know what forget it-


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Final post I'm making on this thread.. maybe.

First - the sand I used also came from an old tank, although I hardly used any of it as it capped soil and peat and i left it pretty shallow. 
That was one bacteria source.
Second - I floated all of the plants from a tank I tore down in this tank. 
That is the other bacteria source. 
Third - the tank the plants and soil came from had a very high bioload, the tank was overstocked with tigerbarbs who I fed voraciously. 
This is cause for a very large population of bacteria in the first place, much of which resided on plants and sand since the tank was under filtered. 
Fourth - The high temperatures and constant food source meant the bacteria would multiply very quickly, assuming I had 1/16th the bacteria required the bacteria only need to double in size 4 times - which I believe they can do more than twice per 24 hours at 84 degrees.
Lastly - taking out ammonia via water changes makes the cycle occur faster because as soon as there is no ammonia or nitrite I consider the tank cycled - if the ammonia source was small, the tank would have cycled even quicker but it wouldn't have been able to support fish.


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## soc200 (Feb 26, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> Lastly - taking out ammonia via water changes makes the cycle occur faster because as soon as there is no ammonia or nitrite I consider the tank cycled - if the ammonia source was small, the tank would have cycled even quicker but it wouldn't have been able to support fish.


A "cycle" is the colonization of bacteria (specifically the filter media). Removing ammonia does not make this occur faster...regardless of how you choose to quantify your "cycle time." This thread was ridiculous from beginning to end. The logic is bad...and the science is worse. 

By your own logic, I could do a 100% water change on day 1...pull all the ammonia out and say it's cycled. :thumbsdow


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

The claimed difference being that new Aquasoil releases much more ammonia than any real bioload. And that by doing multiple water changes, he brought the initial ammonia down to a realistic level; rather than eliminating it entirely.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

soc200 said:


> A "cycle" is the colonization of bacteria (specifically the filter media). Removing ammonia does not make this occur faster...regardless of how you choose to quantify your "cycle time." This thread was ridiculous from beginning to end. The logic is bad...and the science is worse.
> 
> By your own logic, I could do a 100% water change on day 1...pull all the ammonia out and say it's cycled. :thumbsdow


>_< 

Your a funny one, so I'll try not to be rude. 

I want you to answer one question, and if you still don't understand after answering it then I'll move on. 

If a tank has enough bacteria to digest all the fish waste you will ever provide them with, yet you still have a lot of ammonia in the tank, would you consider the tank cycled? 

Anyone should answer this question with a resounding "No," yet if I followed your logic that the tank is cycled, when there is a "colonization of bacteria (specifically _in_ the filter media)," then I would have to assume my tank was cycled, albeit maybe the bacteria aren't all in the filter, but that doesn't actually matter since surely you wont argue that a unfiltered tank is not able to be cycled. 

So if you follow my logic, the tank was not cycled until all the ammonia could be kept at 0ppm. 
If you have 5 ppm of ammonia, but your colony is readily able to reduce 3ppm to 0 in 12 hours, then just do a 50 percent water change, now you have 2.5 ppm of ammonia, and in 12 hours it will be zero, provided there is no nitrite - that is a cycled tank. 



P.S. Why are you complaining about "science" when I didn't do any science... I skipped the entire method and went straight to the experiment, and I was simply telling all of you my results. 
Make some conclusions if you want, about what may have caused the results, etc. 
Because just saying oh this isn't possible, is asinine.
It is possible, because it just happened, and I have tiger shrimp living happily in the tank as of august 31st.


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## wheezo (May 19, 2009)

Well this is an interesting post. I wouldn't believe it if I haven't heard from a close friend of mine that he cycles Ada aqua soil 1 in 5 days. I believe he raised temperature to 90+ and placed high grade crystal red Shrimps in the tank. And he has been doing this for awhile now... And knowing how sensitive crs are, I believe the tank is well cycled because the crs would die from the aqua soil leeching ammonia if there wasnt enough bacteria.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

I think people are stuck on a means to the goal without quite understanding the goal itself. 

Chloro made it pretty clear how he managed to cycle his tank half way through this thread. 

He had enough bacteria by day 4 to handle any bioload he could realistically expect in his tank from fish/inverts. His water changes were made, not to get a favorable reading of ammonia, but to avoid waiting till ALL the EXCESS ammonia due to his substrate was gone.

Lets make it more simple.

Lets say a realistic expectation of ammonia levels from his fauna is 5ppm.

Now lets say that the amount of ammonia leeched by his aquasiol is 10 ppm.

SO, why would he wait till there is enough bacteria to lower the 10ppm down to 0 if all he needs is enough bacteria to lower 5ppm to 0?

So what he did was do 50% water changes to bring the ammonia down to levels he can expect from fish - something he can gauge probably from a lot of experience keeping fish - and once THAT amount (in our example it would be the 5ppm) was consumed by the bacteria to 0ppm along with nitrites at 0ppm, he cycled his tank. Assuming that the aquasoil has stopped leeching ammoniai, he can fully stock that tank now. I will say that I have never quantified fish bioload and have 0 experience with aquasoil to know how much ammonia leeches into the water. Here, we trust Chloro's numbers because..well...it doesn't seem like there's any reason for him to lie. 

If his plans were to keep a whale in his tank, then of course he wouldn't have done the water changes as he needs as much bacteria he can fit into that tank to handle the whale's bioload...thus he needs as much ammonia in there as he can get to get the bacteria numbers up.

Fortunately, he's not able to keep a whale in his tank so he doesn't need the amount of bacteria it takes to handle a whale's bioload.

Maybe folks don't want to believe that they _could_ have saved time


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

Actually i can testify to Chlorophile's method of cycling in 1 week. I did just that. My 10g tank was cycled with aquasoil and 1 week later, i put zebra danios in. 2 weeks later I put tetras in. Majority of them are still alive today (some died months later due to other matters).


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

astrosag said:


> I think people are stuck on a means to the goal without quite understanding the goal itself.
> 
> Chloro made it pretty clear how he managed to cycle his tank half way through this thread.
> 
> ...


Im happy someone explained it out. I was too lazy too lol. But yeah I cant figure out why some people just refused to understand it. FYI im going through this with new aquasoil myself.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

I has a question  So won't the soil continue to leach ammonia for quite some time? And if so, wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to let the tank cycle using all the ammonia being released into the tank?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Chlorophile said:


> Wow....
> 
> No need to panic, the tank IS cycled. This time it was much faster because I cranked the temperature up very high, and all the crypts I left floating at the surface were covered in beneficial bacteria, and they soaked up lots of ammo and nitrite.


I tell folks this, they do not believe me and rattle on about the need to do liquid NH3 cycling:thumbsdow

The new ADA AS seems to cycle faster, I added fish/shrimp after about 8 days, but did several large water changes and added zeolite.

No issues of any sort, no NH4/NO2.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

wendyjo said:


> I has a question  So won't the soil continue to leach ammonia for quite some time? And if so, wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to let the tank cycle using all the ammonia being released into the tank?


That's what plants take up, NH4 and NO3, not just NO3.
That's one of the main benefits of having plants in the 1st place.

I've tried to explain this to folks on many forums for the last 15 years, but the FC people seem to think FC ing is the cat's meow..........I do not get it. 

That's the point of ADA AS, to add a source of N, NH4 is take up, just like fish waste that's end product is NH4 if the bacteria do not get to it.

There is no typical cycle if you have plants. Or if you have a good sized mature filter, or old seasoned gravel, mulm from an established tank etc.


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## firefiend (Sep 3, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> I've tried to explain this to folks on many forums for the last 15 years, but the FC people seem to think FC ing is the cat's meow..........I do not get it.



What's FC stand for? I haven't had my morning coffee yet and I just cant seem to grab this one.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

I think it is Full Cycle like for weeks.


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## firefiend (Sep 3, 2009)

audioaficionado said:


> I think it is Full Cycle like for weeks.



ah, gah! Yeah, that makes sense, lol.


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## dubvstudent (Jan 10, 2009)

I thought FC stood for Fish-less Cycling but I'm not positive myself...


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> wendyjo said:
> 
> 
> > I has a question  So won't the soil continue to leach ammonia for quite some time? And if so, wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to let the tank cycle using all the ammonia being released into the tank?
> ...


Exactly, once there is enough absorption (or is it adsorption) from plants/bacteria and the leeching has slowed down enough then there is nothing left to worry about - after all fish produce ammonia, so at some small level there is ammonia in all tanks at almost all times. 

I wish I had thought of adding mulm though, but I still don't think I could have gotten quicker results.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

dubvstudent said:


> I thought FC stood for Fish-less Cycling but I'm not positive myself...


I think you're right. Makes more sense. What doesn't make sense is dumping household ammonium hydroxide into the tank and taking the chance there isn't some detergent in it. All you need is some South of the border sea food to get things started :biggrin:


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

audioaficionado said:


> I think you're right. Makes more sense. What doesn't make sense is dumping household ammonium hydroxide into the tank and taking the chance there isn't some detergent in it. All you need is some South of the border sea food to get things started :biggrin:


I'd rather use ammonia and get a predictable, controlled result. Shake bottle, if no bubbles, no surfactant.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

With ammonia you can actually measure how many ppm you want to add to the tank. How would you do that with food? 

Using ammonia is more precise (of course if you take the time to measure and such) and you don't have to wait to build ammonia in the tank unlike with food.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> I'd rather use ammonia and get a predictable, controlled result. Shake bottle, if no bubbles, no surfactant.





astrosag said:


> With ammonia you can actually measure how many ppm you want to add to the tank. How would you do that with food?
> 
> Using ammonia is more precise (of course if you take the time to measure and such) and you don't have to wait to build ammonia in the tank unlike with food.


Good points, however I'd rather not use imprecise grocery store brands. Better to get the pure 28% stuff by the liter or gallon from a more reliable source. No bubbles isn't a guarantee there isn't some aqua toxic impurity or additive.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Once upon a time I bought my first fish tank and did some research and decided on a fishless cycle.

I used some ammonia from a grocery store, that listed its ingredients as ammonia and surfactant. 

I shook it - no bubbles - whereas others I'd gone to look for did not list surfactant as an ingredient, but did make bubbles. 

Anyway, I bought it and used it and once the tank was cycled I just did two 90 percent water changes and added fish with no ill results. 

I'm not convinced there would be even close to enough surfactant in a large tank after adding 5-10 ml of ammonia and doing a 50 percent water change, to harm anything.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

firefiend said:


> What's FC stand for? I haven't had my morning coffee yet and I just cant seem to grab this one.


= Fishless cycling ......... folks that add ammonia to their tanks and wait 3 weeks etc..........I have to ask, do they test planted tanks without adding ammoina and see how much NH4 is produced?

I've never measured any.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Chlorophile said:


> Exactly, once there is enough absorption (or is it adsorption) from plants/bacteria and the leeching has slowed down enough then there is nothing left to worry about - after all fish produce ammonia, so at some small level there is ammonia in all tanks at almost all times.
> 
> I wish I had thought of adding mulm though, but I still don't think I could have gotten quicker results.


Uptake would be a more precise term. The ADA AS has NH4..........but........just like a fish load..........it also produces a leeching rate of NH4 waste as well..........and the plants if planted densely in the start.........and if they have good light/CO2/other ferts..........will remove it all, about 0.8ppm per day.

Sp if you add say 1ppm per day of NH4, or 5ppm a week, most all of it will be gone if you do the basic horticulture.

Now...if you also have bacteria on those roots.........or filter sponge material from another tank etc.........mulm etc...........then there is even less NH4 and some is transformed into NO3, no wait of any kind.

This adds precisely what is missing from a new tank. A few folks might live out in the boonies, know no one else to get any mulm from, but if they use plants, there's no need. I see few cases where one would actually benefit from doing FC. I think these folks also simply wanted to cook up some excuse to prove me wrong due to their ego than to admit the truth of the matter. 

It's a lot... like using algae killers, this is a plant problem and the focus should be there. Grow the plants, stop worrying about bacteria, stop worrying about algae.

Healthy plants= healthy fish, a simple concept.
I've got loads of fry, the tank's I recently set up already have eggs on the glass from the fish breeding.

Hard to suggest things are not going well.


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## RandomMan (May 31, 2011)

According to this:
http://forum.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/showthread.php?p=695482

If you crank the temps up during your FC, you should be able to complete a cycle in 1 week. I'm sure plants help that along.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Chlorophile said:


> Exactly, once there is enough absorption (or is it adsorption) from plants/bacteria and the leeching has slowed down enough then there is nothing left to worry about - after all fish produce ammonia, so at some small level there is ammonia in all tanks at almost all times.
> 
> I wish I had thought of adding mulm though, but I still don't think I could have gotten quicker results.


My question was about the leaching tho, which either didn't get answered or got answered and I didn't understand it. Will the soil you used continue to leach or does it release the ammonia all at once? Cause if it continues to leach then won't you still see spikes if you didn't allow enough bacteria to colonize for all of it?


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Not necessarily. *If* aqua soil spikes to its highest levels in the beginning and you were able to grow enough bacteria to consume that ammonia, any subsequent leech should be completely covered (as in safely consumed immediately).

It all depends on how the substrate works. It could spike initially and then slowly leech out ammonia at a steady declining rate. I have zero experience with aqua soil but if it does behave like this, then the tank will have no problems neutralizing the ammonia.

*If* aqua soil behaves like an anaerobic solution where pockets of ammonia build up under/in the soil and then violently escape into the tank (either by agitation or by critical level of it) making large sudden spikes, then the bacteria levels would probably be too low to immediately neutralize it - simply bc the bacteria probably equalizes its numbers with the amount of ammonia in the tank. A sudden spike like that could be dangerous. 

_However_ the fact that he has heavily planted his tank, its likely that even then, the plants could neutralize enough ammonia to compensate for that which the bacteria couldn't.

From what I read, aqua soil just leeches at a constant rate after an initial spike. Even then though, water changes is still available in his repertoire to fight off subsequent spikes. 

Eventually, aqua soil stops leeching ammonia so we're really only talking about a few weeks where any of this is even possible.

Bottom line: I think he very well could have safely cycled his tank in 4 days.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

OK thanks. I've never used it and didn't know if it would leech for a long time or just a few days or what.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

wendyjo said:


> OK thanks. I've never used it and didn't know if it would leech for a long time or just a few days or what.


I assume it does leech for a long time, but as Astrosag said, if you are capable of handling the initial spike then you'll be able to handle any further leeching. 

I believe aquasoil leeches for quite a while, maybe 3-4 weeks, but that sort of depends on how much of the ammonia is being neutralized, it would be hard to test.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Uptake would be a more precise term. The ADA AS has NH4..........but........just like a fish load..........it also produces a leeching rate of NH4 waste as well..........and the plants if planted densely in the start.........and if they have good light/CO2/other ferts..........will remove it all, about 0.8ppm per day.
> 
> Sp if you add say 1ppm per day of NH4, or 5ppm a week, most all of it will be gone if you do the basic horticulture.
> 
> ...


Interesting - well I just let probably a pound or more of crypt wendtii float at the surface, as well as using sand from a different tank. The roots were in the water column. 

NH4 uptake rate, is that for a specific amount of plants or just in general?


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Chlorophile said:


> I assume it does leech for a long time, but as Astrosag said, if you are capable of handling the initial spike then you'll be able to handle any further leeching.
> 
> I believe aquasoil leeches for quite a while, maybe 3-4 weeks, but that sort of depends on how much of the ammonia is being neutralized, it would be hard to test.


Hmm that's not really very long. Good to know.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Thank you for this awesome thread very informative. You just convinced me to try aquasoil on my next tank. Could not justify the use of it before but the more and more I think about it. I can't stand the little oscomote plus capsules floating around my substrate and the quick cycle is a deal maker.


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## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> I tell folks this, they do not believe me and rattle on about the need to do liquid NH3 cycling:thumbsdow
> 
> The new ADA AS seems to cycle faster, I added fish/shrimp after about 8 days, but did several large water changes and added zeolite.
> 
> No issues of any sort, no NH4/NO2.


http://homeaquariumenthusiast.com/2011/aquarium-zeolite-usage-sugestions/

interesting article. Definitely worth reading. Never heard about it till now. ty


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Way to go, chlorophile! That's the way to do it. But, boy did you step in it here. I know you are bang on in your statement and that the temperature is the key that most people miss. However, you should have expected this response. In fairness to those crying "foul", I think it is a bit unfair to say you "cycled" in four days. You started with plants which were already self contained _fully cycled _bio filters and only waited for the colony to reproduce itself a few times. Your cake was half "baked" before you ever put it in the oven.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Wow, this is an old one. 

Reading through this thread, I noticed two things. First, a lot of folks responded in a rather rude way at the start rather than simply questioning or attacking the OPs premise. Having said that, the second thing I noticed is that I'm pretty sure that the OP is wrong about his assumptions.

That is, if we assume that "cycling" means "having a population of nitrifying bacteria build up in the filter media to handle a fish load."

I don't believe that he did that in 4 days.

If "cycling" is defined as "creating an aquarium environment where nitrogenous compounds are removed and fish can be raised," then, yes, he did do that. However, he did it by having lots of plants in the tank. That is done all the time. If you set up a new tank with new soil and completely fill it with fast growing plants, you'll be able to add fish the same day, and you will probably never have an ammonia reading other than 0.

We do the second form of "cycling" all the time, so it is nothing new, or really all that interesting.

Now, if the OP is claiming that the tank was cylced in the "traditional" sense (fully populated filtration media), then here is an experiment:

1. Set up new tank with new Aquasoil and new filter and media.
2. Follow the steps mentioned in the original post over 4 days to "cycle" the tank.
3. Remove the filter with media from the tank and place the filter in a separate tank with nothing but newly treated (e.g. Prime) tap water and several fish.
4. See if you notice a "traditional" cycle and non-zero ammonia readings.

I'm betting that the experiment above will show non-zero ammonia and that the original tank was not "cycled" in the "traditional" sense.

I guess this all depends on what the OP meant as "cycled." He never really defined it.

p.s. I'm not claiming the "traditional" definition is the best, but this thread does seem to hinge on semantics.


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## audioaficionado (Apr 19, 2011)

Cycled tank generally means a tank safe to put fish in and has an established bacteria colony to keep it safe.


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