# plants outcompete algae?? Or so I am told..



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

Well I was reading a thread earlier that someone who was under the impression that plants don't out compete algae..and that isn t the reason why algae is kept at bay by a healthy tank..

Now I have to say that I am not sure where I stand on this issue due to the simple fact that if you use EI, pps pro, or some other form of fert dosing then there will always be nutrients in the water regardless of how much your plants grow and suck up the nutrients..isn't that the point at least of EI to always have nutrients available?? I more or less believe that IF you are able to *balance lights, nutrients, and CO2* then your alage will be kept at bay or at least to a minimum..

So I ask all of you, where do you stand on this topic?? 

I would really like to hear some thoughts and if possible some examples of this theory in action..

Thanks!


----------



## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Algae Control*

Hello sketch...

I don't have visible algae in my planted tanks. I haven't for several years. My tanks have been running for a long time, and the water properties settled some time ago. 

I do large weekly water changes, so the water is always stable and the tanks are all heavily planted and have a lot of fish in them. The lights are on timers for 12 hours on and 12 off and I always feed the same amount just different combinations of flakes, pellets, wafers and frozen. So, nothing is special or out of the ordinary

I really think the "Ramshorn" snails, I got from the local pet store a few years ago have made the difference. These little guys clean up every thing from algae of all kinds to dead plant and fish material.

They're prolific breeders and I have small piles of them in the corners of all my tanks, but they've never damaged anything healthy plant or fish.

Just a couple of thoughts.

B


----------



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

BBradbury said:


> Hello sketch...
> 
> I don't have visible algae in my planted tanks. I haven't for several years. My tanks have been running for a long time, and the water properties settled some time ago.
> 
> ...


Ya I understand that one, I am with you, i also have stable water conditions and very little visible algae, minute amounts of staghorn and some GDA is all i really ever get..my light are on for 9 hrs a day, not always on full blast.
I agree with you, i really like the ramshorn snails, they do a great job of clean up and seem to feast on algae but never eat plants unless the leaf is dying..i wish I could keep em also, mine died a while ago because I have assisan snails now a days..

So stable water conditions help keep algae at bay, I like this..i think that when there is a influx of nutrients or water pramaters is when algae tends to take a hold..just a thought..


----------



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

Still looking for more peoples input..


----------



## DerekFF (May 24, 2011)

Wheres samamorgan......he said it well yesterday.......

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## stlouisan (Jun 8, 2006)

I read Diana Walstad's book last week and the section that really got my interest talked about allelopathy. Basically plants and algae synthesize chemicals used in their "biological warfare" if you will, to keep control of completing plants/algae from taking up their space for nutrients and light. They are used to stunt growth of other plants/algae directly around it. She contributes this to why some old established tanks that have been stable for years just suddenly decline in plant growth, and that these allelopathic compounds may have been building up in the substrate and affecting root growth. She also mentions some algae in her experience having this trait and cleaning the algae in a tank would release these chemicals and even affect the fish if not done in conjunction with a water change. I'm not saying this is the primary reason for why plants seem to out compete algae in thriving tanks, but I'm sure this plays some part of it.


----------



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

stlouisan said:


> I read Diana Walstad's book last week and the section that really got my interest talked about allelopathy. Basically plants and algae synthesize chemicals used in their "biological warfare" if you will, to keep control of completing plants/algae from taking up their space for nutrients and light. They are used to stunt growth of other plants/algae directly around it. She contributes this to why some old established tanks that have been stable for years just suddenly decline in plant growth, and that these allelopathic compounds may have been building up in the substrate and affecting root growth. She also mentions some algae in her experience having this trait and cleaning the algae in a tank would release these chemicals and even affect the fish if not done in conjunction with a water change. I'm not saying this is the primary reason for why plants seem to out compete algae in thriving tanks, but I'm sure this plays some part of it.


Very interesting, I was reading a LLOONNGG post about this here a month or two ago, and this is a very intriguing subject..but I have never heard of it affecting fish and the ability for other plants to prosper after a while..Where can I find this book or article at? But one thing I was reading about is the fact that in aquariums in general this is very hard to back up with actual scientific info...but would love to read more into it. 

Thanks!


----------



## DerekFF (May 24, 2011)

samamorgan said:


> No. If the plants absorbed most of the nutrients in the water you would actually be creating a condition where the algae would thrive. Take an aquarium with no plants at all, no fertilization, low light, no Co2, and perfect water conditions, you still see algae in those types of setups.
> 
> Tom's post up above explains my point very well, plants and algae don't actually _compete_, they each fill a niche. Conditions happen to be good for the organism that is thriving. If they directly competed in nature and filled the same niche, one would take over the other as the better contender for resources and the less efficient organism would die out. This is seen all over nature.
> 
> One of the more interesting places that it's readily apparent is in Madagascar with the 100 something documented species of lemur. Each species fills a specific niche that nothing else was filling when primates came to Madagascar. Those lemurs started as one species and came to an island with very little fauna variance to fill all the niches in nature. They then evolved into over 100 different species to fill all sorts of highly specialized roles on that island. They don't compete with eachother for resources because they're so specialized to do what they do. This wasn't really meant as an analogy, more like an example of how evolution and survival of the fittest works.




Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


----------



## ufimych (May 30, 2011)

I had algae problems, on and off in each of my tanks. I always waited until the top plants would outcompete the algae, but a real solution came, when I bought power filters. Water is crystal clear in every tank. However, when I shut off my power filters in tanks for rearing fry, the algae are coming back, because I have to pollute water by feeding fry and young fish. If you have a good piece of chalk in you tank or you gravel contains a lot of calcium and the lighting is strong, algae would never go away.


----------



## ItsDubC (Feb 5, 2008)

I've always felt that plants and algae compete for very similar resources. Just last month, I setup my 4 gal Finnex and planted it as heavily as I could from the beginning to see if I could have an algae-free tank w/out using floaters this time. Despite that and possibly because a large percentage of my plantmass is groundcover instead of fast-growing stems, green water started taking hold. I left the tank alone for a week to see if the issue would subside, but things only got worse.

At that point I finally gave in and floated some hornwort like I usually do when starting up new tanks. Lo and behold, my green water started clearing up and was completely gone in just two days. I had always used hornwort in the past as a nutrient sponge but I was completely shocked at how fast it worked its magic this time. Granted, it's only a 4 gal but still, I didn't expect it to work so well so quickly.

I believe hornwort is said to have allelopathic properties, but I'm still not entirely convinced that allelopathy is significant in aquariums. My belief is more that hornwort soaks up nutrients in the water column too quickly for algae to compete. Whatever the actual mechanism is, the plant as an algae-fighter just plain works and I will never doubt its capabilities again lol


----------



## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

No one knows if allelopathy really exists amongst our aquatic plants. So we can't definitively say that aquatic plants win through chemical warfare in the way of corals...I've always been skeptical about the whole non-limiting nutrients = no algae thing. Algae will grow if there are nutrients in the water...regardless of plant growth. I know how many people say they have algae free tanks but I've always been curious what that really means. 

Many large algae such as BBA, filamentous and clado can only be introduced through fragmentation...not spores like GDA and GSA or diatoms. Meaning if you are careful you can completely avoid the worst of algae invaders. If you're in the hobby long enough you eventually will come across these guys unless you religiously practice sterile techniques. And in almost every case getting rid of them simply involves very good maintenance: trim afflicted leaves, perform water changes, alter lighting. 

I think it's more a case luck and proper maintenance. 

I'd also like to propose that GDA and GSA often _does_ happen in so called high tech tanks....it happened in mine...but only on the glass. Where there was no plant matter. I think that algae like this can't grow on the leaves of healthy plants because there is an absence of nutrients directly on the surface of the leaves because they're being taken in at a much higher rate than the algae's rate... Just my 2cents. I am by no means a professional or free of my algae woes though.


----------



## sketch804 (Mar 2, 2011)

Jeffww said:


> I've always been skeptical about the whole non-limiting nutrients = no algae thing.....
> 
> ...I think it's more a case luck and proper maintenance...



Now the first thing you said, I will NEVER believe anyone that says they have NO algae in their tanks..because that is just a bold face lie, algae is ALWAYS present in everyone's tanks, it is just how much of it is around is the thing that I look for. I always try to get the littlest amount possible, which is what we all seem to strive for. BUT I will say that since I have started dosing EI and my plants are growing great I have had* a lot *less algae than I have *EVER* had in my tanks since I started this hobby..as long as the plants are growing good it seems that algae can't compete for some reason. But IMO I don't believe that having unlimited nutrients is where algae comes from, because as I read in a bunch of places it seems to be the quite opposite where the *lack* of nutrients seems to be the causing factor for them to spawn. 

I believe and agree with you on the second thing, the better maintenance you keep then algae seems to be less present. As par example, my 29 gal high that I keep some of my larger fish that don't need much room (and my original tank for them cracked so I am waiting to set the 4ft'r up again), I don't exactly do the best maintenance on it besides some water changes and I try to pull out dead leaves but I KNOW that I have a good amount of decaying leaves lying around so I get a decent amount of BBA algae forming on my slower grower sp. like Anibus'...So good measures in maintenance goes a long way as well..



ItsDubC said:


> I've always felt that plants and algae compete for very similar resources.


I am with you on this one, 100%! Now it might just be who can take the required resources more efficiently and use them to propagate and grow..I dunno if this proves to be true or not, just something I am thinking about..



ufimych said:


> I had algae problems, on and off in each of my tanks. I always waited until the top plants would outcompete the algae, but a real solution came, when I bought power filters. Water is crystal clear in every tank. However, when I shut off my power filters in tanks for rearing fry, the algae are coming back, because I have to pollute water by feeding fry and young fish. If you have a good piece of chalk in you tank or you gravel contains a lot of calcium and the lighting is strong, algae would never go away.


That's interesting as well but I kinda believe that it could have to do with declining water quality on that one, since you have to give the fish a good amount of food, that gets converted to fish waste, etc..then the algae can harvest it and grow, but I don't get why the plants can't compete at that level. Now why do you say the thing about the Ca+ type of soil?? I haven't heard that one before, but I do know that people use the 'GH booster' that contains Ca+ in it and it seems to do alright, but it might just be the over abundance of Ca+ that is doing it in this example, because we all only add just a bit of Ca+ to the water..



samamorgan said:


> Tom's post up above explains my point very well, plants and algae don't actually compete, they each fill a niche. Conditions happen to be good for the organism that is thriving. If they directly competed in nature and filled the same niche, one would take over the other as the better contender for resources and the less efficient organism would die out. This is seen all over nature.


Now this example sounds a bit more like what I was thinking of when I originally wrote this post, the higher organism is the one who does better at utilizing the resources around it to grow and prosper and the weaker or lower level organisms seems to diminish to a certain point but never fully disappear..


Also on a side note, I remember reading someone talking about if you do let some sort of algae grow in a place in the tank that you can't see and doesn't affect the plants it seems to help fill that niche, if you will call it that, and keeps other algaes at bay for some odd reason. In my 'high' tech tank I used to have some staghorn algae growing in the hole in my driftwood and it seemed to keep the other algaes from popping up everywhere else, I just had to keep it in a VERY small portion....just a side thought


So more to come, I like hearing all the different views on this subjuect! because it doesn't seem that anyone REALLY knows to a science why growing healthy plants will keep algae to a minium but we all have great idea's and procedures on how to do that.


----------



## ducky14523 (Aug 29, 2011)

to further complicate. i think you can "breed" different algae to specific growing conditions. I have brush/beard whatever growing in my tanks. i'm weird but i kind like the look of it on the fake stones or some of the hardware. but in the beginning every i caught a piece on a live plant i pull it. the spread is super slow to not at all. 6mnths since the last attempt at a live plant(tanks been up for a little over a year.), now it sticks to inorganic surfaces. It seems like i fixed a growing habit in my algae, i've been training(?) this algae in various tanks for five or so years, before i even had plants in the tanks. The times i see the algae latch on to a living plant is sometimes after i add new plants so i don't know if it's the plant is adjusting and weaker or if it brings it's own strain with it.


----------



## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Algae is very interesting...I have a little pamphlet on algae growing for the lab lol. Each species have their own requirements. I've taken my tank water under a microscope before too...Even if you don't see it your tank water is chock full of stuff like spirogyra and diatoms and what not.


----------



## knuggs (Mar 5, 2007)

You will always have algae and never truely be free from it, its in the water column. R/O may help lessen the amount of algae because some may get filtered out but for the most part it will always be in the water you use.



sketch804 said:


> I more or less believe that IF you are able to balance lights, nutrients, and CO2 then your alage will be kept at bay or at least to a minimum..


+1 

Right plants for the right lights is a big factor. Most people over light. Plain and simple this is the nutshell. I have less algae in no Co2 and no fert tanks due to the lack of nutrients (my tapwater provides my plants with what they need but very slow growth). Trying to get faster growth with Co2, High lights, and Ferts is more of a balancing act because everything gets fed and alot of plants can only grow so fast and use so much. This is why it varies so much in views and perspectives because there are so many variables but for the most part it comes down to balance, mostly light, plants, and whats in the water you fuel your tank with.


----------

