# Substrate options... what to do?



## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

So I'd like to setup a 75 gallon tank soon... I'd like to do the substrate about 3 inches deep or so. That being said, I'd probably need tons of Eco complete. About what, 8 bags? Maybe more? They carry it at Petco for 25 bucks a bag. Were talkin 200 dollars here... that's before tax!

Now Petsmart carries Flora-max which is pretty much the same thing as far as I know, but the cheaper version of it? right? I've used it before with the same results. They are a bit cheaper, 17 bucks for a bag. But their only 12 pound bags.... I'd probably need like 10 bags of them. Still cheaper... but not much. for 8 bags of Floramax it'd cost 136 dollars before tax. Sometimes you can find them on sale, though, for 12-15 bucks a bag.

What should I do? Would it be worth it to try the Floramax or no?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I'd think it would be cheaper to do dirt with a cap.
Then also you could put down about 1.5" of sand first and then the Flourite or EC.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

Dirt isn't really an option for me. Too much work. I like a clean tank.


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## Tiptop (Apr 15, 2013)

1) Pool sand? It's cheap, it's pretty, and you can stuff it with root tabs if you need to. 
2) If you can find Safe-T-Sorb in your area, that's very similar to fluorite/ecocomplete, while being much cheaper. 
3)I forget the specific name, but that black sand blasting material is also cheap and has proven to be a great alternative. 

All are pretty much no muss, no fuss. Just need rinsing!


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

Tiptop said:


> 1) Pool sand? It's cheap, it's pretty, and you can stuff it with root tabs if you need to.
> 2) If you can find Safe-T-Sorb in your area, that's very similar to fluorite/ecocomplete, while being much cheaper.
> 3)I forget the specific name, but that black sand blasting material is also cheap and has proven to be a great alternative.
> 
> All are pretty much no muss, no fuss. Just need rinsing!


 The Saf-t-sorb and the black sand blasting sand ( I forget the name too) can both be had at your local Tractor Supply Co.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

^^Black Dimond blasting sand...


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Blackheart,

I prefer the heat treated montmorillonite clay materials as substrates; they are inexpensive (like gravel) however they have very high cation exchange capacities (unlike gravel) which allows them to absorb nutrients from the water column and make them available to the plants in the root zone.

Some of the ones liked are discontinued like Soilmaster Select charcoal color and Turface Pro League grey color. Currently I am using Safe T Sorb #7341 ($12.65 for 40# at WW Grainger). It is very "dusty" (I screen mine before use) and it requires multiple rinses before the first use but after that is isn't an issue.

10 gallon - STS #7941









20 gallon - STS #7941









30 gallon - Soilmaster Select Charcoal









45 gallon - Soilmaster Select Charcoal









75 gallon - STS #7941


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Blackheart,
> 
> I prefer the heat treated montmorillonite clay materials as substrates; they are inexpensive (like gravel) however they have very high cation exchange capacities (unlike gravel) which allows them to absorb nutrients from the water column and make them available to the plants in the root zone.


Do you do anything to prep your STS before planting, add anything?

Just currious as I'm giving serious consideration to using montmorillonite clay in my next tank.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi FatherLandDesendant,

Did you happen to see my response to a question about pre-loading in this thread?

I did not pre-load with KNO3 or KH2PO4 for the reasons outlined in that thread; I just pre-loaded with MgSO4 and CaCl. That said, if I had used the macro ferts I'm sure they would have been absorbed as the Mg and Ca were.

75 gallon on 8/27/14







[/QUOTE]


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi FatherLandDesendant,
> 
> Did you happen to see my response to a question about pre-loading in this thread?
> 
> I did not pre-load with KNO3 or KH2PO4 for the reasons outlined in that thread; I just pre-loaded with MgSO4 and CaCl. That said, if I had used the macro ferts I'm sure they would have been absorbed as the Mg and Ca were.


I have now:tongue:

So if your water dKh was 3 and your dGh was 5 would would you still pre-load your STS? I can get with wanting to have more control over your K & P, however with the cation exchange rate being what it is does one still need to employ root tabs for heavy root feeders such as swords or crypts?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi FatherLandDesendant,

I think it depends upon what species of fish (and plants) I wanted to maintain in that tank. That said, with dKH = 3 and dGH = 5 (which is pretty close to ideal in my mind) I would probably pre-load the STS #7941 with Ca and Mg knowing that those levels will drop in a newly set up tank.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

If you want cheap and don't mind black, get some truly organic soil (I use Mircle Gro Organic Potting Mix) I can't recall exact price but I got 2 bags for around $10 in the off season over a year back. Cap the soil with Black Diamond Blasting abrasive (20-40 grit and -60 are like sand quality, but if you want a gravel look at the large grit size) this stuff is sold at tractor supply co for $8 for 50lb bag. I've never found any aquarium specific substrate remotely near that value. Both need a bit of prep before use: black diamond needs rinsed to get rid of floaters and the oil slick on the surface if you don't want that in the tank. If you don't want heavy tannins water sift the soil to remove wood chips (i used window/door screening for this).


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

honestly, I did the whole 8 bags of eco complete in my 75 and I'm not a fan

it holds nutrients sure but I'd rather have actual nutrients to start off with to lessen how reliant upon dosing my tank would have to be

I'm going to be redoing my 75 at some point and am debating switching up the substrate. I feel most folks with the real successful planted tanks that are larger do best with a substrate that is a mix of various different things, such as MTS or potting mix with a bunch of additives capped with something else.

I've done dirted tanks before, they've all been cleaner than my 75, I think its worth the try to get a lot of nutrients available to the roots quickly.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

I like Seattle_Aquarist's suggestions, especially when OP said he didn't want dirt. 

However, as an avid dirt user, I have to say dirt is not as messy as one thinks, if its well managed. As long as one does not pick a soil that too heavily clay, dirted tanks can be very clean. I move rocks/plants around but don't face cloudy water issues. Part of it is also having healthy redox/bacteria in the tank, whose bio-film bind small dirt particles together so it doesn't become a dust cloud. So dirt tanks may start out dusty, but after maturing for awhile, stirring up the substrate shouldn't be a big issue. I've see dirt tanks without cap (some other mad ppl here), and surprisingly, the water can remain clear, it just takes awhile for the dirt to settle down each time its stirred up.


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## TekWarren (Oct 6, 2013)

I am in the process of refurbing a 125 and I had pretty much assumed I would STS. It looks natural, it's cheap, and has some other properties that help get nutrients to the roots of plants. -Although I really like the look of some of the other things that SeatleAquarist mentioned.

I have a 40b with PFS and it did NOT stay nice and white. I ended up putting some STS over top of the PFS. I like the looks and the results. I did/do have a hardness issue I am fighting but my water comes out of the tap at 0GH so I just add epsom salt and plaster of paris to get the associated nutrients up.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

I've used Eco Complete before with great results. I'm kind of curious about Laterite... Can you use this stuff about an inch or so on the bottom of the tank and just throw some regular gravel on top it?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Ancient technique but it'll work. I still use it at the bottom of my tanks, that or iron rich clay, at the bottom of the substrate where redox is lowest.


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## DaveFish (Oct 7, 2011)

Why do so many "Gurus" recommend dirt to beginners. Such bad advice. Who cares about expense. This is a hobby and dirt doesn't make the hobby easier. Baked volcanic ash based soils make the hobby easier.

Look man. Just type "Controsoil" into the Amazon search and get it straight from the manufacturer. Plus free shipping. This soil is produced by Marfied a Japanese based company which now has a US based distribution center in California. This manufacturer makes most all aquarium brand name soils we use. Brightwell, Mr. Aqua, Columbo, not sure about ADA, but ADA is the same thing. They may use a different manufacturer or their own facility. It's all volcanic ash/organic baked soil. Go straight to the manufacturer and save some money. Nothing compares to soil, this just makes it a lot easier to deal with and has super high humic acids which help retain and hold nutrients as well as particulate matter in the substrate where they belong. Making for crystal clear water. Most dirted tanks have particulate matter in the water and make a giant mess.

I know my friend above, Dennis Wong, will disagree, but not all soils are created equal and not all of them have the ability to trap particulates or nutrients as well as a high humate soil.
It's easy for someone with as much experience as you to say that it doesn't make a mess, when dirt definitely does make a mess.

REDOX in the planted tank really shouldn't be something one has to think about. The roots and leaves are constantly producing oxygen and Co2 as well as the hobbyist constantly replenishing nutrients 
like "Basic" positively charged minerals like potassium, magnesium and calcium. Our tanks are usually on the high side of oxidation with the need of constant replenishment. So we are always in a REDOX Flux-which is how it should be! There is no such thing as the perfect REDOX and it is always fluctuating, easier to reduce the water than try and oxidize a tank that is too far gone, that I will admit, so slightly on the high side is preferred, but really there is no perfect number. When was the last time you saw an unhealthy heavily planted tank?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Actually I don't disagree at all. I did say ADA is my favorite substrate if cost was no concern. I recommended dirt because.. it's as cheap as dirt - some people won't use ADA for costs reasons and also because a lot of people seem to be using dirt without issue, and with good results (look at all the examples of walstad style tanks in the low tech forum)? I mean lots of people won't pay 100ish for a CO2 system, the chances of them paying that amount for substrate Hmm... For dirt all it takes it learning a little management, which comes with the hobby anyway, its not a "high level" art to manage dirt.

Redox wise, the water is always on the high side of oxidation, positive redox. Substrate-wise, redox tends to be lower, between -100 to -200mv. In typical wetland soils, the range is between -300 to -700. Only at lower redox levels, Fe becomes reduced and more easily available to plants. So if you're placing Fe in the substrate, might as well place it lower/deeper in the substrate where redox is low. (Read Diana's book and Tom barr's site's articles for more on this). Its not something most people should worry about. But its something that can be interesting to experiment with.

On a side note, it is interesting why Diana's book uses dirt instead of aquarium substrate no ? If substrate gives the cleanest no nonsense approach. I'm a bit on the fence on this. Haven't had the time to test both (dirt vs substrate) in the same low tech settings with more difficult plants. I know using dirt/no CO2, I can grow DHG, glosso, staurogyne, almost any sword/hygro, and grow them well. I haven't tested this using just good quality aquarium substrate, but I do see plenty of failures (here as well as locally), especially at the carpets. Will probably dedicate some time to testing in the coming months.


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## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

How exactly does Laterite work guys? Can I use this stuff and top it with natural gravel and just go? And how much of this would I need for a 75 gallon tank? They came in 55oz boxes from API for pretty cheap.


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