# Schooling tetras & Rasboras Question: Update on page 7



## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

their shape and size is a major discrepancy, i wouldnt' think they would school together but would make their own groups.


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## concepts88 (Oct 4, 2012)

I'll put up a video for you of my tank, maybe tomorrow

I have a school of Rummynose, Neons and Har Tetras.

I also have Dwarf CoryCats, 4 SAEs, OtoCats


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

I had harlequin rasboras, lambchop rasboras, and white-tipped tetras together and they rarely schooled together. Occasionally they would surf in the current of the lily pipe, but pretty much stuck to themselves.

In addition to size discrepancies, you'll have to think about their behavior and what level of the aquarium they like to reside in. The rasboras I've kept almost always stuck to the top third to top half of the tank, whereas all of my tetras stick to the middle of the tank.

If you care less about their stress levels and more about their schooling affect, you can always put in a bigger fish like a 1.5" angelfish or a school or roselines and they'll stick together.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

As ced281 accurately stated, they won't school together - the tetras will generally occupy the mid to lower half of the tank, while the rasboras will stick to the mid to upper half of the tank.
I think you would enjoy the combination of the rasboras and the bloodfins, but the lemons would also be a good choice instead of the bloodfins.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Thank you all for your imput! I am getting closer to choosing some fish to replace my exsisting school of Puntius Denisonii.
Sounds like I wouldn't have a problem adding two schools, one being tetra and one being Rasboras! Great! I really don't want a mass of different species confused in my tank LOL!

I like the Lemon Tetras quite a lot and thought the yellow would compliment the orange of the Harlequin R. very nicely even bring out the yellow that much more. But, the Bloodfins are extremely effective schoolers moving like carp; at least this is what I have been told by a friend of mine who has them. I would love to see a large school tightly bunched together swimming from here to there. 

So! Now I just need to come to a final descision!


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## Sethjohnson30 (Jan 16, 2012)

Why wpuld you want to replace the denisoi???


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## Fuze (Jul 26, 2012)

My Harlequin Rasboras are great schoolers, I have about 20 of them with Cardinal Tetras, who do not school as tightly and are likely to be found hanging out in the java ferns.

When they do school, the cardinals occupy the lower region, and it looks quite nice.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Sethjohnson30 said:


> Why wpuld you want to replace the denisoi???
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't get me wrong! They are an amazingly beautiful fish! I love the size of them too. The problem is, my house is not fish tank friendly. In other words, it is all open floor plan with hard wood floors and the kids are quite loud when they patter back and fourth around the house. Toddlers are very loud! The Densions have gotten ICH three times since June! So, not a good fish for our home...or we are not a good family for them to be exact!  

When everyone is gone and I am home alone with the baby, the denisons are chill and fun to watch. As soon as even 1 kid is added to the equation, I have crazy, nervous, darting, spastic denisons running over eachother, other fish and into the sides of the tank.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

*Seeking your thoughts/Opinions/Experiences TPT!*

So, I am trying to decide between Harlequin Rasboras, Lemon Tetras, Bloodfin Tetras, and/or Kuhli Loaches. Not all of them!!!! I like order, flow and relaxation rather than hustle n' bustle, confusion and spastic. This is what I am aiming for in my 88 gallon tank. (Finally found out exactly how many gallons are in this thing!) I can't find this anywhere else in my life HaHa! So it _must_ be in my tank :icon_mrgr

Would be helpful to listen to TPT visitors to this thread discuss these options so I can know more about the behavior of these species in home aquaria :tongue:

First I will tell you I do have 2 Angelfish and 1 Betta. These fish own this tank and won't be going anywhere. I have concidered adding more Angels for a large schooling fish, but really don't know if that's what I want. Still in the day-dreaming stage with this stocking, and not in a rush. My goal is to be slightly understocked allowing my fish to enjoy swimming room and privacy when they choose without being in eachothers faces 24/7. I also don't have to have so few fish that they are "dotted here and there".

I can hardly wait to see what other people would do with these options!!!


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## TexasCichlid (Jul 12, 2011)

I love espei rasboras. A nice school of them really looks good. Msjknd sells them here often. Mine are very chill and school well, but very active during feeding and like to take turns surfing the current. You could have a very impressive school in an 88 gallon and still be stocked correctly. 30 to 40+ easily


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

TexasCichlid said:


> I love espei rasboras. A nice school of them really looks good. Msjknd sells them here often. Mine are very chill and school well, but very active during feeding and like to take turns surfing the current. You could have a very impressive school in an 88 gallon and still be stocked correctly. 30 to 40+ easily
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


These are more vibrant than the Harlequin Rasboras right? Just a tad smaller too? I'm going to do a quick search to see.


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## Sethjohnson30 (Jan 16, 2012)

Send me your denisons mine are always happy even if I'm having a party with a bunch of people. But I do have concrete floors. 


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Sethjohnson30 said:


> Send me your denisons mine are always happy even if I'm having a party with a bunch of people. But I do have concrete floors.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh lucky! I do wish mine were like that...it muct be the concrete floors 
I would send them to you _if_ I wasn't swapping them for other fish  They were $180 so I get to pick $180 worth of fish and supplies!


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## Sethjohnson30 (Jan 16, 2012)

Wow you get full price return at your Lfs that's awesome! 


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

See? I told you your lfs was special! lol

All I can chime in on from your list is the H. Rasbora. Mine school very well and make use of every corner of the tank, and they colored up deeply. Whether Harlequins or Espei, the rich autumn/copper color in a planted tank is outstanding. My males face off & display at each other on a weekly basis. It's quite a sight to see them, they are one of my favorite fish and I'll always have a some. I need to expand on what I have - I just haven't decided if I want to add to the 125, or start a large, new school in a different tank.

On a side note, I'm getting a kick out of how parallel our fish search is - lol


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Sethjohnson30 said:


> Wow you get full price return at your Lfs that's awesome!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 
Yeppers! They rock!!!!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> See? I told you your lfs was special! lol
> 
> All I can chime in on from your list is the H. Rasbora. Mine school very well and make use of every corner of the tank, and they colored up deeply. Whether Harlequins or Espei, the rich autumn/copper color in a planted tank is outstanding. My males face off & display at each other on a weekly basis. It's quite a sight to see them, they are one of my favorite fish and I'll always have a some. I need to expand on what I have - I just haven't decided if I want to add to the 125, or start a large, new school in a different tank.
> 
> On a side note, I'm getting a kick out of how parallel our fish search is - lol


I know right?! Parallel is the best word you could have used; It's crazy! Thanks for your input! If you love them, and you seem to love all the same fish I love, this is a huge plus for the copper cuties!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

It's a lot! [STRIKE]10 ideas[/STRIKE]! [STRIKE]Narrowed down to 6 Ideas[/STRIKE]  

Updated stocking ideas on page 4. But, here's where I'm at in the descision process. Now I just need to narrow it down so I can make a choice! Tell me what you think, even if you hate it! (All of these numbers are choosen specifically to keep me below fully stocked, with an _estimate_ ranging between 75%-97% stocked with filtration accounted for and fish bio-load/size and shape using the debatable Aqadvisor stocking tool)

[STRIKE][STRIKE]*2 Angelfish, 1 Betta, 8 Kuhli Loach and one color coded group below:*
*
30 Harlequin Rasboars*
*25 Lemon Tetras*

[STRIKE[STRIKE]]*25 Bloodfin Tetras*
*30 Harlequin Rasbora*[/STRIKE] 
*20 Lemon Tetras*
*25 Bloodfin Tetra*

*50 Lambchop Rasbora*
*add 2 more Kuhli Loach*
*this group leaves plenty room to spare concidering bio-load*

~or~[/STRIKE]*4 Angelfish, 1 Betta and one color coded group below:*

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*40 Harlequin Rasbora*

*7 Kuhli Loach*
*20 Harlequin Rasbora*
*15 Lemon Tetra*

*50 Lambchop Rasbora*
*10 Kuhli Loach*

*9 Kuhli Loach*
*30 Harlequin Rasbora*

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*23 Bloodfin Tetra*

~or~
*6 Angelfish, 1 Betta and 7 Kuhli Loach*

*12 Redback Bleeding Hearts* (to shoal around the bottom-mid level having the Angelfish the only schooling species)






[/STRIKE][/STRIKE]


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Curious: how many fish/gallon can be safely added at one time without overwhelming the biofilter?


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Rainer said:


> Curious: how many fish/gallon can be safely added at one time without overwhelming the biofilter?


There are a lot of different opinions regarding this. Depends on what species of fish too as well as size and how old your tank is. I am likely not the best person to ask, but I will tell you I add the minimum number of 6 for schooling/shoaling species. Never under, never over. Just a personal preference. I've never had any new fish die on me and never had any trouble with my water doing it this way. I add another group of 6 every 5 days or so until I reach my desired school. But I am talking peaceful community fish. Angels are recommended to be added at the same time and the same size to avoid problems. (I don't have that option with adding my angels though because I ended up with a full grown and then got it a buddy which was only the size of a quarter and now will possibly be adding more) 

If you are starting up an Mbuna tank, you must add all the fish at once and purpously overstock. At least that is what I have read over and over again the past couple years. This will avoid any deaths that may occur if there are too few fish and varying sizes due to the aggressive/territorial nature of these species.


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## concepts88 (Oct 4, 2012)

Here is a video of my tank as of this morning, as you can see, none of the fish school together anymore, if I were to do it all over, I may just do one species? 

Or they were just hungry and happy to see me? Who knows

8+ Neons
8+ Rummy Nose
6+ Harlequin Rasboras
2 Dwarf CoryCats
4 Real SAEs
3 Britt. Rasboras

It's a hot mess! :icon_sad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQkBSSqk54Q


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Thank you for sharing that video. They seem like they are expecting you to drop in some food. Do they swim like this when you are further from the tank and they don't see you? 
How long have you had these fish? I am thinking they are not schooling because they know there is no threat in the tank and they are just all buddies. If you changed things around just a tid-bit in the scape, I bet they might school again (just until they see there's no threat...) It could also be because there are a few schooling groups and they are small groups so they are just all mixed up about who to swim with creating a tank of lost fish? What do you think?

Maybe if you dropped the 8 Neons and the 3 Britt. Rasboras then add more Rummynose and/or Harlequin Rasboras you would be happier and have 2 groups of schoolers occupying different levels of the tank. Or drop one of the latter two upping the remainder school even more and adding more cories?


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## concepts88 (Oct 4, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> Thank you for sharing that video. They seem like they are expecting you to drop in some food. Do they swim like this when you are further from the tank and they don't see you?
> How long have you had these fish? I am thinking they are not schooling because they know there is no threat in the tank and they are just all buddies. If you changed things around just a tid-bit in the scape, I bet they might school again (just until they see there's no threat...) It could also be because there are a few schooling groups and they are small groups so they are just all mixed up about who to swim with creating a tank of lost fish? What do you think?


I fed them in the morning. 

They exhibit the same behavior when I am sitting on the other side of the room, in fact, the neons are quite aggressive towards each other and they seem to corner their own little space now and fight among themselves. Its almost cichlid-like, their behavior.

I think they are quite comfortable in the tank now, and thats why they stopped schooling, the rummynose still stick together the most.

Its not a big deal for me, but from what I see of ADA Amano tanks, they usually use only one species in a tank. If I had a wider tank, I think they may continue to school, but they keep bashing into each other with the amount of fish I have and the small space I have. 

I am quite attached to them now, so I dont plan to trade them in to consolidate the species. But like I said, in all the photos and videos I've seen of "show tanks", I usually see only one species of schooling fish (and a lot of them). I believe this is more pleasing to the eye, but some people (like me) like a little bit of variety eh?


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## salmon (Apr 14, 2011)

Perhaps I missed it in this thread, or it's in another thread, but there's no mention of tank size? Guessing it's a good size if you keep red lines in there...

I like your first list choice, with either harleys and lemons or bloodfins and lemons, although the tetra-tetra combo might get messy vs tetras and rasboras. Either way I'd drop the Betta unless it's already in the tank. 

Id go either a pair of angels or five min and a school of tetras, rasboras. Look like your fairly set on loaches, what about cories?


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

concepts88 said:


> I fed them in the morning.
> 
> They exhibit the same behavior when I am sitting on the other side of the room, in fact, the neons are quite aggressive towards each other and they seem to corner their own little space now and fight among themselves. Its almost cichlid-like, their behavior.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are right about majority of show tanks featuring one large school. I, like you do appreciate a bit of variety and that's why this stocking has proven to be a bit challenging because I like sooo many species that are compatible, but only have one tank to keep fish, narrowing my choice drastically. If only I could have 9 tanks! Then I'd be satisfied (maybe 

In the end, it all comes down to the individual with the tank. As long as they are happy with it, that's all that matters!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

salmon said:


> Perhaps I missed it in this thread, or it's in another thread, but there's no mention of tank size? Guessing it's a good size if you keep red lines in there...
> 
> I like your first list choice, with either harleys and lemons or bloodfins and lemons, although the tetra-tetra combo might get messy vs tetras and rasboras. Either way I'd drop the Betta unless it's already in the tank.
> 
> Id go either a pair of angels or five min and a school of tetras, rasboras. Look like your fairly set on loaches, what about cories?


Thank you for your input! It's quite good. First, I must say Betta is in the tank. :tongue: This tank is hers  I adore my Betta! She is the coolest fish in the tank and sweet as the dickens! She swims into my hand and gets a good 'ole belly tickle every morning. And, (I can't believe I'm divulging this) she swims up to the glass, faces me and gets some kisses Ha Ha! It's weird, weirder than weird, but she reminds me of one of my cats. Same personality. She is so incerdibly funny! She races all over the tank and thoroughly enjoys riding the flow from the Penguin Powerhead!

Far as loaches, my family finds them so cool and freak when ever they see some so it is a fish that must be in this tank. It's my tank, but I want everyone to enjoy it, otherwise I would leave bottom feeders out all together and up my school numbers instead as well as adding shrimp and nerite snails.. 


I was worried about the tetras meshing, but someone had mentioned due to their different body structures, they'd stick to their own groups. The more I think about it the more I love the idea of yellow and copper fish combo. The thing that makes it the toughest between the lemons and bloodfins is the schooling behavior. It's to my understanding the bloodfin school like carp. That would be intense with the red fins and silvery-blue bodies! But the Lemons with those awesome red eyes...ugh!

Too bad my tank wasn't bigger! It's 4' long and 1.5' deep (front to back).


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

From personal experience, bettas and angel fish are not a good mix. At least the angels were too slow in my tank and the betta was able to often nip at their fins. And he flared at them constantly. (maybe their appearance look a bit like flaring to a betta?)

Harlequin rassys are one of my favorites! Very tight schoolers, and I like fish that have a hint of red. I also am a big fan of khuli loaches and would have them in my current tank if I wasn't trying to establish hc.

Out of your list above, I'd go with the school of angels, khulis and the bleeding hearts, because I personally prefer angels in larger schools. Good luck with your tank! :smile:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> First, I must say Betta is in the tank. :tongue: This tank is hers  I adore my Betta!


Ah, if this is the case then skip the angels and perhaps consider pearl gouramis. I've kept them successfully with a betta. Add in Khuli loaches and the harlequin rasboras. I can speak from personal experience that this is a great mix.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> From personal experience, bettas and angel fish are not a good mix. At least the angels were too slow in my tank and the betta was able to often nip at their fins. And he flared at them constantly. (maybe their appearance look a bit like flaring to a betta?)
> 
> Harlequin rassys are one of my favorites! Very tight schoolers, and I like fish that have a hint of red. I also am a big fan of khuli loaches and would have them in my current tank if I wasn't trying to establish hc.
> 
> Out of your list above, I'd go with the school of angels, khulis and the bleeding hearts, because I personally prefer angels in larger schools. Good luck with your tank! :smile:


A large school of Angels would probably be really impressive in person. I've never seen more than one in a tank until my own (other than on the net) Hmmmm...the reason I chose the shoaling species to go with 6 Angels is because I thought if their were so many Angels, the swimming space would be crowded with any of the other schooling choices I am looking at. What do you think? 




bluestems said:


> Ah, if this is the case then skip the angels and perhaps consider pearl gouramis. I've kept them successfully with a betta. Add in Khuli loaches and the harlequin rasboras. I can speak from personal experience that this is a great mix.


Gouramis are sooo neat. I never concidered them since I got the Betta because I always read that they would not get along due to both being Laberynth fish. Intersting your got a long so well. It proves that every situation has great potential to cause fish to interact differently with eachother from tank to tank! It's awesome!
Rivercats has the best Angel community tank I have ever heard of! But, he has a huge tank with lots of plants which makes for keeping the species he chose without any trouble. 
Anyway 
Thank you guys! I apologize... I meant to put my current fish in the first post, but I see I forgot. :redface: I already have 2 Angels (were not planned) and a Betta (also not planned). The Betta and the mature Angel were in need of an immediate home (months apart from eachother, Betta first) and I had the space. Once moved in, they never left! I had gotten a second Angel to keep the 8 year old angel company. 
Sounds like I ended up lucky with my betta and the 2 angels I have. Believe it or not, they are buddies. Have been together for quite awhile now. They swim together, rest together, play together and occassional have a .5 sec arguement. If I were to increase my Angel school this group may break up. Because I'd like to keep them together, I'd get juvies from the same parents that I got the second Angel from (hopefully the fish have a gene that has made this Angel into a non-aggressive specimen) and monitor them closely removing any that don't fit into the mix keeping only the most docile.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

BTW Bluestems, I love the duck (your Avatar)!


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## LB79 (Nov 18, 2011)

Angelfish and harlequins.... I've occasionally had bad luck with these. I've also kept them successfully together. Probably depends on the angel. 

As far as bloodfins go, these stay in the same area as the rasboras do, so I would go with the lower-area-dwellers.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

LB79 said:


> Angelfish and harlequins.... I've occasionally had bad luck with these. I've also kept them successfully together. Probably depends on the angel.
> 
> As far as bloodfins go, these stay in the same area as the rasboras do, so I would go with the lower-area-dwellers.


Oh that's important! So no bloodfins and rasboras in the same tank. I don't like traffic jams! Thanks!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> BTW Bluestems, I love the duck (your Avatar)!


thanks, such a curious little fella :smile:


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Updated stocking list further in the thread!

Guess what! I am a bit closer! I have eliminated 4 possibilities, down to 6 now. Here is what I'm left to choose from. I'd love you help  Especially if you have experience with Bloodfin Tetras. Do they swim like carp? In a big mass (limited to how many you have of course) If you have more than 15 please tell me about them! 

[STRIKE]*4 Angelfish, 1 Betta and one color coded group below:

8 Kuhli Loach*
*40 Harlequin Rasbora*

*7 Kuhli Loach*
*20 Harlequin Rasbora*
*15 Lemon Tetra*

*50 Lambchop Rasbora*
*10 Kuhli Loach*

*9 Kuhli Loach*
*30 Harlequin Rasbora*

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*23 Bloodfin Tetra*

~or~
*6 Angelfish, 1 Betta and 7 Kuhli Loach*

*12 Redback Bleeding Hearts* (to shoal around the bottom-mid level having the Angelfish the only schooling species)[/STRIKE]


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

So, I will admit, I skimmed this thread but saw a few things that raise concerns.
Also, what size is this tank? 


1. bettas and angels can be a hairy mix. They rarely work out well long term. Also, and again I apologize for skiming, but are these angels you already have? Please remember, angels are cichldis and while more docile than a lot, they are predators. They will nip at your bettas finnage, as well as attempt to eat smaller fish. If you want a peaceful tank, I would either go with a single angel, or skip them unless you are prepared for the angels dominating teh tank when adults and at breeding size.

Also note with angles, you need a fuller bodied tetra or rasbora. they WILL try to eat slimmer bodied fish once they hit adult size. Harlequins generally do well, as would your lemon tetras.

I don't know that I would mix gourami with betta. Could be issues there as well. 

What about just building up some nice levels in your tank.

PS- I ADORE espei rasboras. They are much more vivid than the harlies, but a bit smaller and less tall bodied.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

msjinkzd said:


> So, I will admit, I skimmed this thread but saw a few things that raise concerns.
> Also, what size is this tank?
> 
> 
> ...


Dang it! I was coming to this thread to update my final descision which was to have 6 Angels, 7 Kuhli Loache, 1 Betta and 15 Redback Bleeding Hearts. Sounds like that will be a dangerous choice for my Betta. 

Okay. So based on what you have said, I spose I will revert back to only 2 Angels. I already have 2 and they have been co-exsisting with the Betta female quite comfortably for awhile now. Adding more to the mix sounds like it's more risky than I am willing to take. I adore my Betta. So, I will be looking for small schooling fish then. Since the espei rasboras are smaller and different shaped then the H.R. perhaps they would become a meal. What do you think? If I held off on them until the plants fill in a bit (about 6 months from now I imagine) would they be safe or still edible?

Being that Bloodfins do have a slimmer body shape, sounds like they too would be a bad match. Am I right?


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

New stocking choices; I have 2 Angels and 1 Betta peacefully living together in the tank already. They have been a "school" for months now always haging out together. Odd, I know, but it works.

I don't want to add any more Angels after some of the previous posts have alerted me to the fact that Angels and Betta will not do well together. Sounds like what I have going on in my tank is very rare and I don't want to mess that up by adding more. Small schooling species will be the way to go.

Will be back with updated stocking ideas.
Thank you to all of you that have posted thus far! You all are helping me move along with this greatly


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## kkoch (Oct 8, 2012)

I couldnt keep Harley Rasboras alive in my tank! Now I have 2 angels, 2 glass cats, 2 Ottos, 2 bleeding heart tetras and a single black neon tetra. I had 4 but a Blue Paradise killed 3. I removed the Paradise. The Rasboras were before the angels.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

kkoch said:


> I couldnt keep Harley Rasboras alive in my tank! Now I have 2 angels, 2 glass cats, 2 Ottos, 2 bleeding heart tetras and a single black neon tetra. I had 4 but a Blue Paradise killed 3. I removed the Paradise. The Rasboras were before the angels.


Glass Catfish (Minor) are my absolute favorite species of fish! I had 10 at one time and absolutely loved them. Then I made the mistake of putting Puntius Denisonii with them. I was outvoted in the home as to what species to keep and had to take the Glass Catfish back to the LFS> I still hate that. Then later I ended up with a couple Angelfish so now I can't ever have Glass catfish  They liked to hover in the center of the tank and the Angels cruise everywhere which I know would stress the Glass Cats out because their group would be constantly broken up. I am trying my best to keep a calm, happy tank without anyone being stressed. It is quite the task I tell ya! If I could go for a species tank, I'd accomplish this easily, but I just can't! I love Community tanks


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

So...here's where I'm at. I already have the 1 Betta and 2 Angelfish and most definetely I am adding 8-10 Kuhli Loach. Now I just need to figure out what schooling species will survive the Angels, provide the best schooling behavior and be appealing to me.

I would definetely choose the Espei Rasbora because need I say, they are incredibly gorgeous! Even in the LFS! I could have a ton of these and be quite content! I do fear they will be too small though, even if I managed to get 40-50 adults. My Angels may eat them. I just don't know. Try it or not?


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Hmmm, good question about the espei's and the angels. 

What type of angels do you have? Adult angels can just be a bit of a nightmare, lol.

You had mentioned early in the thread about lemon tetras- I know that those woudl be a good choice.

I might be tempted to try the espeis.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

msjinkzd said:


> Hmmm, good question about the espei's and the angels.
> 
> What type of angels do you have? Adult angels can just be a bit of a nightmare, lol.
> 
> ...


I have an 8 year old "man-made" Koi Angel and a 7-8 month old F1 Wild-Type Angel. At least that is what the breeders claim it to be. I am not familiar enough with the many forms of Angels to know for sure. All I do know is there are two types; Altum and Scalare and have read that actually these two types are from the same species. That's when I got confused and decided "what-ever. An Angel is an Angel" LOL. :smile: Hey, if you know Angels really well, can you take a look at them and tell me what I have? That'd be interesting to know. I have pictures of them when the juvenile was about 4 months in my albums, and more pictures of them from just last week in my thread My Ever-Evolving Tank. I have attached 3 links of the Juvenile from that thread. Sorry for the poor quality. All I have is my cell to take pictures.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56620&d=1352189261

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56618&d=1352189053

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=56617&d=1352188874

Just yesterday I read that it is not approved of for people to mix the wild-type with the "man-made" strains for risk of cross-breeding the two. No worries about that in my tank. It is not going to be ideal for breeding or fry survival. 

Anyway...I have definetely decided I like the Espie's better than the Lemons. Been watching all the videos I can, and the Lemons are cute and I love the red eye with the yellow fins, but other than that they don't have as much depth in color as I am looking for. So, now it's between Espie and Bloodfins, although I might have a new love after seeing videos. The Diamond Tetra seems to school great and in the densely planted tanks, they are dancing with colors!


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Diamonds are a WONDERFUL choice, SUPEr underrated fish. The male get gorgeous long lavendar fins that they shake and display to each other and the females. They have a great shimmer and should be considered.

One thign to note, they can be nippy. If kept in large groups, this is usually not a problem but should be a consideration as I am assuming the betta is a male betta


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

msjinkzd said:


> Diamonds are a WONDERFUL choice, SUPEr underrated fish. The male get gorgeous long lavendar fins that they shake and display to each other and the females. They have a great shimmer and should be considered.
> 
> One thign to note, they can be nippy. If kept in large groups, this is usually not a problem but should be a consideration as I am assuming the betta is a male betta


They do look quite fabulous  I am going for a school of no less than 20 no more than 45 depending on the size of the species I choose in the end.

Betta is a girl  A round tail.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Ahh! that is good news  Should be fine. Have you considered adding more female bettas? They make a nice harem


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

msjinkzd said:


> Ahh! that is good news  Should be fine. Have you considered adding more female bettas? They make a nice harem


I had thought about it, but decided not to because I didn't want her to be stressed with "betta beauty competitions"  I figured she'd be happier running things on her own. She defientely owns the tank HaHa!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Okay. I'm getting there thanks to everyones imput. *Only 4 choices left!!! *Some things are the same as before, but it's narrowed down to only 2 Angels  What do you think? Help me narrow it down some more. Here is what I am aiming for. A large active school to add color and movement to the tank. It will be heavily planted with driftwood and rocks so I thought _maybe_ adding a couple shoaling species that prefer the lower level could provide the Kuhli Loach with extra security so they will come out even more as well as give some color within the base of the plants. Tell me what you all think!

Pre-exsisting inhabitants:
*2 Angelfish, 1 Female Round Tail Betta *

I need to select one color coded group from below.

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*35-40 Diamond Tetra*

[STRIKE][STRIKE]*8 Kuhli Loach*
*50 Espei Rasbora*
[/STRIKE]
[STRIKE]*8 Kuhli Loach*
*40 Harlequin Rasbora*[/STRIKE]

[STRIKE][/STRIKE]*8 Kuhli Loach*
*30 Espei Rasbora*
*20 Harleqiun Rasbora*
*(thought the two Rasboras may school together adding security to the smaller Espei Rasbora...what do you think?)
*[/STRIKE]

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*35 Diamond Tetra*
*15 RedBack Bleeding Hearts* *(to dot the lower level of the tank)
*
*8 Kuhli Loach*
*25 Diamond Tetra*
*10 RedBack Bleeding Heart Tetra*
*10 [STRIKE]Rosy Tetra[/STRIKE] HY511 Tetra*
*(the last two tetras above would shoal and mix, dotting around the lower level of the tank from what I have read about them)

[STRIKE]**8 Kuhli Loach*
*30-40 Bloodfin Tetra*
*(I like the look of these fish somewhat less than the other species listed above because the main body color is subdued in comparison with a splash of color in the fins. The main reason I haven't eliminated these guys is the possibility they school like carp. That would be amazing!!!!)*[/STRIKE] *I decided against this species after learning they are good at jumping the tank.*


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

You're killing me with these choices! I wish my tanks were set up & cycled now! lol

I can only say that of your list, Diamond Tetras and Harlequins are a must for me (never had, or have even seen in person, espeis) I haven't had Diamonds yet but they are super stunning to see, and my Harlequins school very nicely and have great deep coppery color offset by the black chop (lamb chop? pork chop? some kinds food!). My Harlequins stay in the upper third of the tank, too, nowhere near the bottom half.

Good luck deciding - lol


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> You're killing me with these choices! I wish my tanks were set up & cycled now! lol
> 
> I can only say that of your list, Diamond Tetras and Harlequins are a must for me (never had, or have even seen in person, espeis) I haven't had Diamonds yet but they are super stunning to see, and my Harlequins school very nicely and have great deep coppery color offset by the black chop (lamb chop? pork chop? some kinds food!). My Harlequins stay in the upper third of the tank, too, nowhere near the bottom half.
> 
> Good luck deciding - lol


HaHa! I've missed you Driftwoodhunter! I am totally In...Love with the Diamonds! I am almost certain these will be the fish. Unless, I change my mind next week :icon_roll. But, honestly, I doubt it. I have been staring at my tank today and really envision the Diamonds adding so much to it! The Angels are somewhat shiny and the Betta is well..blue and purpley so with the shimmering Diamonds and their purplish/bluish and pinkish fins WOW! What a spectacular thought  Wish you could come over and check it out so you can see what I'm talking about. The gorgeous little copper babies would be very nice too though adding a different hue to the tank. With the Tiger Lotus I will have and the orangish Manzanita, again stunning. Help me! It's sooooo hard to pick!


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Amandas tank said:


> Help me! It's sooooo hard to pick!


Oh, don't I know it! lol

remind me, what size is this tank?


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> Oh, don't I know it! lol
> 
> remind me, what size is this tank?


I plugged the dimensions in and believe it to be 88.9 gallons. So, I call it 80. You know...I was sold this tank as a 100 gallon. As soon as I saw it in person I knew it was definetely not! The guy argued it was and I did my best to have him drop the price, but he called my bluff and I really wanted a bigger tank, so I took it for the price he was asking. It still wasn't a bad price, but I just didn't like that he was playin' me for a fool concerning the size. 

dimensions: 48" x 18" x 24"


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

oh well, you know guys can't measure...

just a bit of info - I did some extra reading on the Gold Tetra, and I think I've been scared off of them - two different site mentioned that hey are extra prone to skins conditions, including but not limited to ich. Maybe due to their unique skin condition in response to the water borne parasite? So I'm going to wait and get the Diamond Tetras instead...I need to get cracking on that larger QT tank...


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Awww that's too bad. You really liked them. That is very important though when concidering fish. I don't like having the Puntius Denisonii because for me they have been prone to ICH. I can't stand it! Thankfully the Angels and Betta never have broken out with it while the Denisonii are bouting it.

Yeah for Diamonds though!!!! Get that tank ready!!!!

And yeah...for sure guys can't measure  -JK-


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## kkoch (Oct 8, 2012)

With your size of tank, glass cats and angels would work. I have angels and cats in a 30g. No aggression from the angels.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

kkoch said:


> With your size of tank, glass cats and angels would work. I have angels and cats in a 30g. No aggression from the angels.


Thank you , but I don't think it would work with my particular Angels. They visit all areas of the tank and don't care who they "go through" to get to the other side. If I had Glass Cats I would have a minimum of 10 preferably 20. From the behavior observed before, they will form a "stairwell" in the center of the tank and the Angels would bully through the group breaking formation. 

If I was certain it would work, I'd go for it, but I just don't see my blue angel being kind. Thank you though very much though! Wish it would work for me!


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

i want to start off by saying espei rasbora's are head and shoulders one of the best schooling and best looking schooling fishes I've kept. The reddish orange really intensifies in good care and they stay at the top of the tank. I personally would get a large group myself BUT....

I have Angelfish in my display and I'm not confident that they will be able to avoid being a snack once the Angels get full grown. 

As to your initial question: I've kept Espei's with Rummy's and they schooled in different areas of the tank so there was no giant mess.

As for Diamond tetra's, they do not school at all. And unless your tank is darker or dimly lit, they don't have the luster in real life that you see in some photos. They were a big dissapointment when I had them. The tank they were in was with Black Flourite substrate and heavily planted with stem plants. The intense light washed them out despite the dark substrate. I probably wouldn't get them again after that experience.

If you want a deeper bodied tetra with good color, modest size, and perfectly safe with angels and bettas, I'd go with one of following types.

- HY511 Tetras: Pinkish Hue, Part of the Phantom Tetra Complex. White tipped fins with hints of red. Stays under 2 inches and loosely aggregates. http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwcharacins&1353190804

- Red Phantom Tetra: Orangish Red with black spot. Stays small. Loosely aggregates. Slightly cooler temps.

- Flame Tetra "Von Rio" Color form: Line Bred color form. Loosely aggregates. Stays under 1.5 inches. Beautiful Yellow, Pastel Pink, and Red Color.

- Emperor Tetras: If you can get the Loreto Species (Rainbow Emperors) they are even better. Beautiful regal look. Very Loose Aggregation. 

Barbs:

- 5 Baneded Barb: PUntius Pentazona: Beautful loosely schooling barb that is actually pretty laid back. I've never had them bother any angels or fish with long fin extensions.

- Rhombeus Barbs: Puntius Rhombocellatus: Very closely related to Pentazonas.

- Cherry Barbs: Males are gorgeous. BUT, they are kinda small and iffy with Angels. I have some right now with Angels but the Angels are still smaller at 3.5 inches diameter.




Any of the smaller torpedo shaped tetras and Rasboras are risky given the Angelfish's size and ability to eat smaller fish.

Lastly, do not discount the myriad rainbowfish you can choose from. Some of the readily available smaller ones would do great as long as the water isn't too far below pH of 7.

- Bosemanii Rainbows: Would be a great option if your tank is larger (4ft or larger).
- Praecox Rainbows: Smaller rainbow that can fit in a 3 ft tank.
- Pacific Blue Eyes: Even smaller and great for mid to top water.
- Furcata Blue Eye Rainbows: Just like Pacifics but prettier.


Hope this helps.


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

I realized I just may have confused you more...my apologies.

Personally, if you were to go with a tetra in the "Rosy" complex, really take a look at those HY511 Tetras I mentioned above. They really are nice.

If you want a top water shoaler, I'd try a rainbowfish species since thsoe espei's are bite sized for a full grown angel.

12 HY511 Tetras and 8-10 of the smaller Rainbows would be awesome with your two angels.


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

robxc80 said:


> I realized I just may have confused you more...my apologies.


haha - go on, confuse her. I'll be really mad if she makes her final decisions before me...:hihi:


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

robxc80 said:


> i want to start off by saying espei rasbora's are head and shoulders one of the best schooling and best looking schooling fishes I've kept. The reddish orange really intensifies in good care and they stay at the top of the tank. I personally would get a large group myself BUT....
> 
> As for Diamond tetra's, they do not school at all. And unless your tank is darker or dimly lit, they don't have the luster in real life that you see in some photos. They were a big dissapointment when I had them. The tank they were in was with Black Flourite substrate and heavily planted with stem plants. The intense light washed them out despite the dark substrate. I probably wouldn't get them again after that experience.
> 
> ...


Really? Diamonds don't school? Dang it! I was so sure to add these.  I watched youtube vids and they appeared to be schooling in all that I watched except for when there were less than 6 specimens. 

I have low light...2 T8 pink plant bulbs. My substrate is black and will be heavily planted with stems, lotus as well as anubias and swords. Manzanita wood and rocks. So, perhaps with the lighting conditions they will sparkle in my tank. But, I really am after schooling behavior. Shoot.

I too am worried about the Angels snacking up the Espies otherwise they would be an automatic choice for me because they are gorgeous little guys! 

I just checked out the HY511 before seeing your post LOL! They are quite nice looking. So, in comparison to the Diamonds, do they school better? You said they loosely aggregate. By this you mean shoaling like Skirt Tetras as example?

I love the F1, F2 Praecox Rainbows. I loked at those a year ago. But my tank is pH 6.8 right now, and after adding the driftwood mass, I expect it to drop lower. Also, I thought these fish would rather be in a tank with quite a lot of current much like the Puntius Denisonii. I am aiming for plenty of circulation but not too much current so the Angels and Betta aren't blown around.

Emperor tetras are too aggressive to co-habitate with the Angels from what I have been told by a buddy of mine who keeps them.

I am not a fan of the looks of the red phantoms. I checked out the Five Banded Barbs awhile ago too. Yes, very nice looking. Unfortunately they are not sold here in Juneau. I want to avoid shipping live fish due to an iffy arrival date with our unreliable Postal Service. The Von Rios were a love of mine too, but because they dot the tank instead of swimming together, I decided against them. Cherry Barbs were concidered as dither fish for the Kuhli Loach, but since, have changed my mind against them since they are smallish and not great schoolers.

Never have heard of the Rhombeus Barbs. Will check them out for sure!



robxc80 said:


> I realized I just may have confused you more...my apologies.
> 
> Personally, if you were to go with a tetra in the "Rosy" complex, really take a look at those HY511 Tetras I mentioned above. They really are nice.
> 
> ...


LOL! You have not confused me! I appreciate your time and details! Very helpful! I want to make the best educated choice I can so that I have a 90% chance of being satisfied with my choice! So, again thank you for all the species you have shared and the descriptions of each!

Back to Rainbows...do they need a lot of current? I have read they do many times over, but wonder if you've kept them without current and they were just as happy and healthy.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Holy cats! I put the Rhombeus Barbs into google. They get far too big. And not much for color. The Snakeskin Barbs are alright, but they don't jump out at me. I do like the HY511 Tetra. It's pretty nice looking. I'm just not sure. I am still bumbed about the Diamonds not schooling. I loved this species! Schooling is most important to me, next color.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> haha - go on, confuse her. I'll be really mad if she makes her final decisions before me...:hihi:


Ha I see how it is...so this is a race is it??? Bring it on! :flick: (don't know why that little green dude is flicking a tongue around! I'm just sticking mine out LOL!)


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## robxc80 (Aug 4, 2009)

Are you sure you googled the right one? They stay around 3 inches or less.

http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntius-rhomboocellatus/


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

i missed the convo about diamonds not schooling.

they do, in my experience.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

If it were my tank, this would be my choice! :smile:



> Pre-exsisting inhabitants:
> 2 Angelfish, 1 Female Round Tail Betta
> 
> *5-7 gouramis *(I like pearls, but pick a variety that coordinates with the angels) *
> ...


I'm not sure how aggressive your angels might be towards the espies. If the espies would school with the harlequins, they could look really cool, but then 50 of a similar species and only 2 angels and a betta might not have the right balance.

The pearls are gorgeous and very sweet personalities. This mix would be a good balance too, imho... giving you 9 med. slow moving & colorful fish, 30 small schooling rassys, 1 betta girl and a cluster of khuli bottom dwellers.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

robxc80 said:


> Are you sure you googled the right one? They stay around 3 inches or less.
> 
> http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/puntius-rhomboocellatus/


Definetely not what I googled  I had copy and pasted from the post straight to google. I got a giant grey fish LOL! Copy and paste this to check it out (giggling) Rhombeus Barbs


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

msjinkzd said:


> i missed the convo about diamonds not schooling.
> 
> they do, in my experience.


Hmmm...I watched several youtube vids and in most of them these guys scooled. I saw only a couple where they weren't and in those tanks there were less than 6 specimens and a mess of other tetras mixed in. This is normal from my understanding, when there are too many species in one tank without enough of one group. 

I think I'm gonna go with these guys. Worst case scenario they can be traded for something else if they don't work out.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> If it were my tank, this would be my choice! :smile:
> 
> I'm not sure how aggressive your angels might be towards the espies. If the espies would school with the harlequins, they could look really cool, but then 50 of a similar species and only 2 angels and a betta might not have the right balance.
> 
> The pearls are gorgeous and very sweet personalities. This mix would be a good balance too, imho... giving you 9 med. slow moving & colorful fish, 30 small schooling rassys, 1 betta girl and a cluster of khuli bottom dwellers.


Well, when you put it that way...okay...now I'm thinking again. Seems everytime I think I'm settled, someone points something out that is totally correct that I would hate to have in my tank, or someone offers a new plan as you just have. I love it. It sounds quite nice...:icon_roll great HaHa!

Honestly, Thank You though for mixing me up again


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Here's an update. I appreciate everyones thoughts! You have been really helping me a long  I have dropped the Rosy Tetras in exchange for the HY511 Tetra and have dropped the bloodfins and Espies. I have added pearl gouramis per a suggestion that sounds great (still unsure about Gouramis and my Betta though)
*Only 4 choices left!!! *

Pre-exsisting inhabitants:
*2 Angelfish, 1 Female Round Tail Betta *

I need to select one color coded group from below.

*8 Kuhli Loach
30 Diamond Tetra*
_Something else...???_
*(this is very understocked and plain leaving room for suggestions! Thanks!!!)
*

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*35 Diamond Tetra*
*15 RedBack Bleeding Hearts* *(to dot the lower level of the tank)*

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*25 Diamond Tetra*
*10 RedBack Bleeding Heart Tetra*
*10 HY511 Tetra*
*(the last two tetras above would shoal and mix, dotting around the lower level of the tank from what I have read about them)*

[STRIKE]*8 Kuli Loach*
*7 Pearl Gouramis*
*30 Har**lequin Rasboras*
*(this was suggested to me and it sounds terrific! I have always liked Gouramis, but scepticle about them with my Betta.)*
[/STRIKE]


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

quick question: What color is your betta girl and angels?

I think I can help you make the decision as soon as I have this info :smile:


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> quick question: What color is your betta girl and angels?
> 
> I think I can help you make the decision as soon as I have this info :smile:


My Juvenile Angel is silver in the morning and gradually progresses throughout the day to an incredible blue-by-night. Not sure what color s/he will be when mature. The others stay the same color  Here are a few pics.

Juvenile before lights out...









Juvenile with Mature an hour after lights on...









Proof they "school" together LOL!









Close up of my Gwen  (The Betta)









Mature Angel. I like the Oarange splash on the head 









Mature and Juvenile in morning


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

perfect! stand by...


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

I would try to stick with one continent-at least for my aggressive fish. Gourami's and cichlids can be territorial, but they are very diffrent-being from south america and Asia, and from completely diffrent families of fish. You've already got a blend of Asian fish(betta) and SA (angels), but the betta seems to be working. Since your angels are massive centerpiece fish, I'd try to go the SA direction. Seeing as you have gravel, I'd avoid the Kuhuli's-they like to burrow and are better suited to sand. I'd go for a school of cories if the gravel isn't too sharp(will wear off their barbels otherwise).

I'd try adding one or 2 species of SA dwarf cichlids (Apistos, rams, latecara, nannacara). And maybe 10 each of 3 species of schooling fish (tetras or rasboras). Finally I would add them slowly (eg. add 6 tetras, see if you like them, see how they are schooling, add more until they are schooling how you like, add next species, make sure algae doesnt dominate your plants due to extra bioload) and see how the ecosystem responds.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> perfect! stand by...


Okay  I also am planting with a variety of greens, some orange, brown and pink-reds. The plants are important too.

I can't wait to see what you come up with. Thank you!!!!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

See if this helps :smile:

*opt 1*











*option 2*













*option 3*














*option 4* 












After seeing the gouramis and angels together, I'm not sure about the color combo. I think that's your call as you know what your angels look like in real life. #1 is nice as it picks up the colors in your betta, but needs another small schooling fish... opt 2 is nice too. 

Hope this helps & good luck!!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> I would try to stick with one continent-at least for my aggressive fish. Gourami's and cichlids can be territorial, but they are very diffrent-being from south america and Asia, and from completely diffrent families of fish. You've already got a blend of Asian fish(betta) and SA (angels), but the betta seems to be working. Since your angels are massive centerpiece fish, I'd try to go the SA direction. Seeing as you have gravel, I'd avoid the Kuhuli's-they like to burrow and are better suited to sand. I'd go for a school of cories if the gravel isn't too sharp(will wear off their barbels otherwise).
> 
> I'd try adding one or 2 species of SA dwarf cichlids (Apistos, rams, latecara, nannacara). And maybe 10 each of 3 species of schooling fish (tetras or rasboras). Finally I would add them slowly (eg. add 6 tetras, see if you like them, see how they are schooling, add more until they are schooling how you like, add next species, make sure algae doesnt dominate your plants due to extra bioload) and see how the ecosystem responds.


Thank you James. I appreciate your help. I only concidered Kuhli loach as a must after others had shared positive experiences with them liking Eco-Complete planted substrate. I started a thread specifically asking about Kuhli's and their barbels on this substrate. Have you had a bad experience with this substrate with Kuhli's?

I am unsure about Gouramis, but the suggestion from someone sounds so tempting as it would be quite beautiful. I hadn't concidered Gouramis with my Betta for fear the aggression between the two would be too intense being that they both are territorial Laberynth species. I am not currently sure if they are compatible far as parameters are concerned; haven't had a moment to research this yet since I just added this choice a few minutes ago.

I think Apistos are the coolest, manly-like fish far as appearance. Love them, but I am afraid they might injure my betta when they are "in-the-mood-for-love". I had a single Kribensis for awhile and man did he get brutal with her. And he was much faster than her so she never had a chance to get away from him. It was awful and he was removed when I saw him nailing her into the substrate.

I want to avoid too many schoolers because I want a "clean" look without intermingling schooling species. What do you think of a middle schoolers paired with a bottom shoaler? I think they would have seperate groups.

Definetely will add 6 at a time. I have always liked how this has worked in the past. Never have had fish deaths doing things this way.

Nice tip about the algae. I had forgotten about it  I will be adding some shrimp once my plants fill in so they have cover from the Angels. Rivercats has had luck pairing shrimp and Angels in his planted tank, so I am hopefull I will too.

So thank you for you time! Look forward to your reply


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> See if this helps :smile:
> 
> *opt 1*
> 
> ...


Holy Cats! Your awesome! Funny you did this...I have done the same thing over and over again in collages! I even have a Discus collage from when I thought I was brave enough to go Discus :redface:

The Goarami Harlequin combo is spot on if they were the only fish in the tank. Gorgeous combo! I may have to do this one day when I get my way and have more than one tank. Seriously, I love it! You are right though...not with the present fish in the tank.

I love 2 and 3. 1 is boring. Thank you for taking the time to do this!

How did you resize? I have tried following the thread directions usung paint, and it doesn't work.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

3 choices left!

Pre-exsisting inhabitants:
*2 Angelfish, 1 Female Round Tail Betta *

I need to select one color coded group from below.

*8 Kuhli Loach
30 Diamond Tetra*
_Something else...???_
*(this is very understocked and plain leaving room for suggestions! Thanks!!!)
*

[STRIKE]*8 Kuhli Loach*
*35 Diamond Tetra*
*15 RedBack Bleeding Hearts* *(to dot the lower level of the tank)*[/STRIKE]

*8 Kuhli Loach*
*25 Diamond Tetra*
*10 RedBack Bleeding Heart Tetra*
*10 HY511 Tetra*
*(the last two tetras above would shoal and mix, dotting around the lower level of the tank from what I have read about them)*


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> I am unsure about Gouramis, but the suggestion from someone sounds so tempting as it would be quite beautiful. I hadn't concidered Gouramis with my Betta for fear the aggression between the two would be too intense being that they both are territorial Laberynth species.


Sorry, that would be me confusing the mix... :icon_redf

probably already a moot point, but I've kept pearl gouramis and a male betta in a 75g, they got along fine and I didn't find the gouramis territorial at all. They tend to be a good community fish and do well with smaller fish like rassys and tetras. 

But, it is uncertain how your angels might react to them invading their home since they are already established.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Yea eco complete is pretty good stuff, I wasn't sure what you had. The kuhuli's probably could burrow in that O.K. and it should be fine for barbels. More bad experience with kuhuli's in general: I had one kuhuli as a kid, it was a very frail fish-(only about 2" long and thin as spaghetti) and it didn't last too long, hid most of the time. Corydoras are from the amazon, just like your angels, and they are not shy, shaoling bottom feeder-plus there dozens of varieties to choose from. 

While I would definitely be worried about the gouramis + the betta-both being labyrinth fishes with a mean streak- I would also worry about angels vs gourami's. One of the most bizzare interactions I ever saw was between a female kribensis in spawning mode vs a rainbow fish(west africa vs Australia) they basically swam in a circle vicously biting eachother until I removed the rainbow fish. I've had opaline and gold gorami's before they can be really nasty, and I've seen blue gorami's endlessly pursue a 4" male lake victorian cichlid (a nasty fish when it wants to be). The aggression in gorami's is very diffrent from that of cichlids. Cichlids are kind of defending a turf, and unless they are spawning, usually leave other species alone. Gourami's are basket cases, slowly creeping around with those wisker feeler fins, and if they decide another fish needs to be nipped at, they will spend all their day hunting that fish down.

Apistos are awesome, and with all that tank, they shouldn't hurt anyone if they decide to spawn. Their aggresion levels vary by species, and some of them are as docile as Angels. If you are worried about agression, don't get the meanest of the apistos(probably avoid panduro/nijsenni). I've dealt with a lot of krib species, and they tend to be more agressive than apistos, and need a little more tank space. I do agree a massive school of one species is hard to beat. The cories could provide your benthic school. A large school of mid water tetras-and maybe a top water fish? There are very few tetras that go top water. You might have to look to Killi fish(non-schooling though..) or rasboras(schooling) for that. 

What kind of shrimp were you thinking of? I don't know if anything smaller than amano's would be safe around angels.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Sorry, that would be me confusing the mix... :icon_redf
> 
> probably already a moot point, but I've kept pearl gouramis and a male betta in a 75g, they got along fine and I didn't find the gouramis territorial at all. They tend to be a good community fish and do well with smaller fish like rassys and tetras.
> 
> But, it is uncertain how your angels might react to them invading their home since they are already established.


Oh my gosh don't appalogize You have been most helpful and I loved the idea of Gouramis! They are gorgeous. I always stare at them forever at the LFS. The Pearl, Sunset and Blue are my favs. 

That is awesome you had them with a male betta no problems. Who was introduced first? Probably right...with th Angels already in the tank, the Gouramis might be in trouble! I hhope the other fish I add will be okay. Actually, this makes me think I should actually move on this before the Juvenile gets much larger. The Betta was in this tank way before the Angels (so were the Puntius Denisonii) so that may be why all is calm and happy between the Betta and Angels.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> Holy Cats! Your awesome! Funny you did this...I have done the same thing over and over again in collages! I even have a Discus collage from when I thought I was brave enough to go Discus :redface:
> 
> The Goarami Harlequin combo is spot on if they were the only fish in the tank. Gorgeous combo! I may have to do this one day when I get my way and have more than one tank. Seriously, I love it! You are right though...not with the present fish in the tank.
> 
> ...


It's the landscape designer in winter in me. :smile: It doesn't take much time and I'm such a visual person that this is seriously the only way I can make my own decisions. Usually just downloading pics into a folder and viewing the thumbnails is all I need to do. 

yw, glad it helped! I think you're probably good on whichever you go with of the three, although going with #1 for now might be worth considering as it gives the tank filtration a chance to step up and you a chance to consider how everything looks and then decide what piece is missing (color, void tank space, etc)

Good luck!

ps- The pics resized on their own when inserted.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> Oh my gosh don't appalogize You have been most helpful and I loved the idea of Gouramis! They are gorgeous. I always stare at them forever at the LFS. The Pearl, Sunset and Blue are my favs.
> 
> That is awesome you had them with a male betta no problems. Who was introduced first? Probably right...with th Angels already in the tank, the Gouramis might be in trouble! I hhope the other fish I add will be okay. Actually, this makes me think I should actually move on this before the Juvenile gets much larger. The Betta was in this tank way before the Angels (so were the Puntius Denisonii) so that may be why all is calm and happy between the Betta and Angels.


That's probably true. My betta came from a lfs that kept all the bettas in community tanks (one per tank) so I think he was used to having the other fish around and not as territorial. 

Good idea on getting the other fish sooner while the angels are still young.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> Yea eco complete is pretty good stuff, I wasn't sure what you had. The kuhuli's probably could burrow in that O.K. and it should be fine for barbels. More bad experience with kuhuli's in general: I had one kuhuli as a kid, it was a very frail fish-(only about 2" long and thin as spaghetti) and it didn't last too long, hid most of the time. Corydoras are from the amazon, just like your angels, and they are not shy, shaoling bottom feeder-plus there dozens of varieties to choose from.
> 
> While I would definitely be worried about the gouramis + the betta-both being labyrinth fishes with a mean streak- I would also worry about angels vs gourami's. One of the most bizzare interactions I ever saw was between a female kribensis in spawning mode vs a rainbow fish(west africa vs Australia) they basically swam in a circle vicously biting eachother until I removed the rainbow fish. I've had opaline and gold gorami's before they can be really nasty, and I've seen blue gorami's endlessly pursue a 4" male lake victorian cichlid (a nasty fish when it wants to be). The aggression in gorami's is very diffrent from that of cichlids. Cichlids are kind of defending a turf, and unless they are spawning, usually leave other species alone. Gourami's are basket cases, slowly creeping around with those wisker feeler fins, and if they decide another fish needs to be nipped at, they will spend all their day hunting that fish down.
> 
> ...


Okay great! Kuhlis are quite interesting to my family. This tank is mine but I want everyone else to enjoy it too, so kuhlis are in as the bottom fish. Thanks for your cory suggestion though. The bandits are my favorite of the species.

Would Killi-fish be okay with miss Betta? I had looked into them but thought against them to reain peace for my Betta. I would love to have 4 more female Bettas, but want her to be happy so I won't add anymore. They are the most personable, sweet fish, Angels running up next (at least as far as my experiences go with species).

I like the Peacock Apisto the best. Gorgeous! I also like the Agassizzi. Both of these are so colorful. Lets say I decided to go with Apistos...how many is best and will they be okay with 8 Kuhli Loach slithering through their territory?


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Amandas tank said:


> Okay great! Kuhlis are quite interesting to my family. This tank is mine but I want everyone else to enjoy it too, so kuhlis are in as the bottom fish. Thanks for your cory suggestion though. The bandits are my favorite of the species.
> 
> Would Killi-fish be okay with miss Betta? I had looked into them but thought against them to reain peace for my Betta. I would love to have 4 more female Bettas, but want her to be happy so I won't add anymore. They are the most personable, sweet fish, Angels running up next (at least as far as my experiences go with species).
> 
> I like the Peacock Apisto the best. Gorgeous! I also like the Agassizzi. Both of these are so colorful. Lets say I decided to go with Apistos...how many is best and will they be okay with 8 Kuhli Loach slithering through their territory?


Yea it's best to keep the family happy when it comes to the fish tank. I'm not sure on the agressiveness of Killis, I saw a clown killi at the LFS and it mostly swam around slowly near the surface. I once had a "golden wonder killi" from walmart of all places, and it was a pretty boring fish, mostly floating around just below the surface. The Lyretail killis look pretty amazing, but I haven't seen any in person. I would avoid the annual killis (only live for a year from what I gather) unless you are going to become a killi breeding junkie. From what I've seen multiple female bettas get along fine. By peacock apisto I'm guessing you mean the cockatoo dwarf, A. cacatuoides, which is one of the most stunning (although the males have a rather funny looking face) and a great first apisto to have. They are not too agressive, although the males will probably have a larger mouth gape than your angels(could eat a neon tetra maybe?), and they are pretty easy to care for. Agassizii is another good choice-wide array of color morphs, not too agressive, although probably needs a little more space than the Cockatoos. The number you can keep is really dependant on the species. Both of those do well in pairs or in trios (1m 2f). I would say no more than 3 males, and no more than 5 females for your tank. You have the space for 2 or 3 species of apistogram. If you do get them, get at least 1m 1f. A. Borelli you could probably have even more males, they are allegedly very peaceful. Oh and they should be fine with the Kuhuli's They will chase them away if they get really close to their spawning site if they decide to breed, other than that they should ignore them.


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

My favorite is;

8 Kuhli Loach
25 Diamond Tetra
10 RedBack Bleeding Heart Tetra
10 HY511 Tetra
(the last two tetras above would shoal and mix, dotting around the lower level of the tank from what I have read about them)
minus the 10 Red Back Bleeding Hearts - and that's just "what if" it was my tank. I think the Red Backs look freakishly like zombie fish (I watch too much Walking Dead) - their coloring makes them look perpetually ill to me...


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> Yea it's best to keep the family happy when it comes to the fish tank. I'm not sure on the agressiveness of Killis, I saw a clown killi at the LFS and it mostly swam around slowly near the surface. I once had a "golden wonder killi" from walmart of all places, and it was a pretty boring fish, mostly floating around just below the surface. The Lyretail killis look pretty amazing, but I haven't seen any in person. I would avoid the annual killis (only live for a year from what I gather) unless you are going to become a killi breeding junkie. From what I've seen multiple female bettas get along fine. By peacock apisto I'm guessing you mean the cockatoo dwarf, A. cacatuoides, which is one of the most stunning (although the males have a rather funny looking face) and a great first apisto to have. They are not too agressive, although the males will probably have a larger mouth gape than your angels(could eat a neon tetra maybe?), and they are pretty easy to care for. Agassizii is another good choice-wide array of color morphs, not too agressive, although probably needs a little more space than the Cockatoos. The number you can keep is really dependant on the species. Both of those do well in pairs or in trios (1m 2f). I would say no more than 3 males, and no more than 5 females for your tank. You have the space for 2 or 3 species of apistogram. If you do get them, get at least 1m 1f. A. Borelli you could probably have even more males, they are allegedly very peaceful. Oh and they should be fine with the Kuhuli's They will chase them away if they get really close to their spawning site if they decide to breed, other than that they should ignore them.


Okay...now ya did it HaHa! I think the apistogramma borellii opal and the man-made hybrid "steel blue" are awesome! Will be doing some research on them. I would trade the shoaling tetras for these guys any day! I did mean cockatoo...I have always messed them up by saying peacock. :redface: That would amazing to have all three species! A pair of each...I assume my Betta-love will be okay with these guys?

I bought a great piece of dw today that would offer a pair of these a great haven once I dress it in Anubias. If I had decided to go with all 3 types, I would need to offer a cave at three points in the tank correct? Would I need more?

I am not sure about the Killis. Will have to see what I can find that would appeal to me. Would Diamond Tetras be fine with the Apistos? Or vise-versa? I still dig this species quite a lot.

Thank you


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> My favorite is;
> 
> 8 Kuhli Loach
> 25 Diamond Tetra
> ...


LOL! There actually is a fish I like that you don't???? I'm shocked :icon_eek: HeHe.

This is my fsvorite out of the groups too...but now I am thinking Apistos! I have always liked them especially the Cockatoo, but feared they'd get my betta-baby that I love so much. (ridiculous, I know, but really she is so much more than a fish! Fo-Sho not ya average betta  )


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> It's the landscape designer in winter in me. :smile: It doesn't take much time and I'm such a visual person that this is seriously the only way I can make my own decisions. Usually just downloading pics into a folder and viewing the thumbnails is all I need to do.
> 
> yw, glad it helped! I think you're probably good on whichever you go with of the three, although going with #1 for now might be worth considering as it gives the tank filtration a chance to step up and you a chance to consider how everything looks and then decide what piece is missing (color, void tank space, etc)
> 
> ...


Oh most definetely!  I have always been careful about slowly adding numbers as not to cause any sudden issues with water parameters, as well as keeping everyone from getting so stressed ICH attacks! I hate that stuff!!!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Mine will be a dissenting opinion: do add the whole school at the same time.

25 tetras will not have a measurable impact on an almost empty 80g tank. Plants will consume all ammonia before they uptake any other fertilizer. If you are still concerned, add some Prime for a couple of days.

All schooling/shoaling fish have strict pecking order. Adding 6 fish at a time will result in the pecking order being re-established every time you add the new guys. Also think if you will enjoy treating Ich once or 6 x 4 times. Adding new fish is not only stressful for the new fish but also to the existing occupants. Even if you use QT, adding new fish to the main tank caries the risk of also adding new pathogens.

If you are adding several schools, either add them all at once (do a WC before, add air stone, add Prime) or introduce a school of the smallest fish first.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

OVT said:


> Mine will be a dissenting opinion: do add the whole school at the same time.
> 
> 25 tetras will not have a measurable impact on an almost empty 80g tank. Plants will consume all ammonia before they uptake any other fertilizer. If you are still concerned, add some Prime for a couple of days.
> 
> ...


Wow, okay. I have always done 6 at a time every few days...but I will do as you say because I 100% trust everything that you put my way. You have been so helpful and obviously really know your stuff with aquariums! Thank you 

"Oh OVT what would I do without you


Almost forgot...I quarentine sometimes. Depends on which tank the fish are coming from at my LFS, and how long they've been there. They are really good and safe with their fish keeping sick fish away from the rest with lights out and they treat every batch they get in for ICH and other common stress related issues. Great guys they are!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

I love this! (Sorry for using Aqadvisor..but I'm tired and headed to bed. Wanted to get this on here quickly. So, what do I add as my schooling species? Diamond Tetras or Harlequin Rasboras?


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Never kept diamonds but the harlequins schooled early on, then became comfortable and went their separate ways. The brilliants stayed in their school.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Amandas tank said:


> Okay...now ya did it HaHa! I think the apistogramma borellii opal and the man-made hybrid "steel blue" are awesome! Will be doing some research on them. I would trade the shoaling tetras for these guys any day! I did mean cockatoo...I have always messed them up by saying peacock. :redface: That would amazing to have all three species! A pair of each...I assume my Betta-love will be okay with these guys?
> 
> I bought a great piece of dw today that would offer a pair of these a great haven once I dress it in Anubias. If I had decided to go with all 3 types, I would need to offer a cave at three points in the tank correct? Would I need more?
> 
> ...


You will not be disappointed with the apistos! I reccomend you acquire pairs-as their behavior is probably the coolest part about them, and to see the whole gambit you need a male and a female. This means being able to sex them, which for juveniles can be tough, black on the pelvic fins almost always means its a female. Some online retailers will sell you "pairs". I once had an aquabid vendor try 5 times at sending me a female bitaeniata and failed every time (I'm pretty sure all he had were males). Oh and avoid the steel blue man made hybrid-they are very aggressive, and most people have never come across a female... If you'd like to try a man made Apisto, try the orange flash, triple red or super red cocatoo's, or the fire red agassizi, or Viejita "red neck". If you go with 3 pairs, offering 3 caves, kind of evenly spaced would be the nice thing to do. They wouldn't mind an extra cave or 2 to hide out in. You can use clay pots (ugly), PVC (hideous), Coconut shell cave, or hot glue some rocks together to make a cave. The betta should be fine, especially with all that water.

Oh and the tetras go well with apistos-makes them less shy. The apsitos like to see a school of fish out and about to feel comfortable (They're smart they know if the tetras are out it's safe to come out and play).


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Rainer said:


> Never kept diamonds but the harlequins schooled early on, then became comfortable and went their separate ways. The brilliants stayed in their school.


 
Okay...that is good to know about the Harleys. Thank you


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> You will not be disappointed with the apistos! I reccomend you acquire pairs-as their behavior is probably the coolest part about them, and to see the whole gambit you need a male and a female. This means being able to sex them, which for juveniles can be tough, black on the pelvic fins almost always means its a female. Some online retailers will sell you "pairs". I once had an aquabid vendor try 5 times at sending me a female bitaeniata and failed every time (I'm pretty sure all he had were males). Oh and avoid the steel blue man made hybrid-they are very aggressive, and most people have never come across a female... If you'd like to try a man made Apisto, try the orange flash, triple red or super red cocatoo's, or the fire red agassizi, or Viejita "red neck". If you go with 3 pairs, offering 3 caves, kind of evenly spaced would be the nice thing to do. They wouldn't mind an extra cave or 2 to hide out in. You can use clay pots (ugly), PVC (hideous), Coconut shell cave, or hot glue some rocks together to make a cave. The betta should be fine, especially with all that water.
> 
> Oh and the tetras go well with apistos-makes them less shy. The apsitos like to see a school of fish out and about to feel comfortable (They're smart they know if the tetras are out it's safe to come out and play).


Great! I love this idea. Just fabulous. Would Mopani wood with "caves be something they'd like? I take it you have them. Sounds like you've had plenty of experience with them.

Someone I trust full-heartedly and follow their advise eagerly informed me that these fish do best in a well-established tank, which mine is _far_ from. I upgraded my 30 gallon to this tank this past summer and have been working on the scape changing the substrate over from gravel to Eco-Complete, adding Manzanita branches and only two days ago adding some plants. I have plenty more to add this coming spring too! I also will be adding a huge piece of Mopani DW I saw and grabbed yesterday thinking it would provide awesome cover for one Apisto pair. See just how serious I am about Apistos? Already collecting things just for them 

I will be adding even more substrate this week as well as more rocks ect. Two new filters will be put on the tank too. So, as you can see, right now this tank is in Mahem. I have been taking my time and having a lot of fun with searching for the right inhabitants for this tank, but just recently realized I might need to speed things up as my Juvenile is growing quite fast! I don't want any trouble from the Angels when I add smaller fish. 

My friend also explained the Apistos are more sensitive and harder to keep then some dwarf cichlid choices and recommended I start with the easiest. Makes perfect sense to me. I would hate to get these beautiful species only to kill them! So, my big question to you is, how long have you been keeping them? Could you be so kind to share your experiences with them...the ugly sensitive side. 

I have been keeping fish for two years, but have been keeping "easy" fish.

So...one last question. If I were to wait to add 3 pairs of Apistos until 1 year from now, would that be the proper amount of time for the tank to become seasoned for them?


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

I think I finally have it!!! Check this out. If you think of something you believe to be a better fit far as the schooling species please share! I may agree with you!

Pre-exsisting inhabitants:
*2 Angelfish, 1 Female Round Tail Betta, 4 Kuhli Loach**(will be adding 4 more when they get some at LFS) *

*25 Diamond Tetra*
*2 Apistogramma Agassizii*
*2 Apistogramma borellii*
*2 Apistogramma Cacatuoids*


Per advise from a trusted friend, I may not add Apistos anytime soon. Because my tank is currently being rescaped and having plants added through to next Spring, it is not yet ready for Apistos, but once the tank is established, I will add them. I have the patience to wait for them. Better safe then sorry!


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

The apistos love the driftwood, if there is a little nook in it, they could use that as a spawning site. They won't mind any tannis it leaches either. I don't have any right now, just a shrimp tank, but I'm currently cycling a new 20L for a pair of A. borelli and a pair of golden eye dwarfs. Although I'm tempted to try Agasizzii tefe blue or bitaeniata again. I've kept: Caucatoides orange flash and triple red, wild agasizii, wild bitaeniata, and steindachneri. If I could only have one fish it would be an apisto(or hopefully a pair of them). Some of them are more sensitive and demanding (A elizabethae, pertensis, diplotaenia, medezii) althought the sensitive ones are less common, but the species on your list are probably some of the easiest. Borelli for instance can handle a wide range of pH and hardness, and also temperatures as low as 50F. If your tank is cycled(~6 weeks) it should be ready for apistos, but I would get a 1 pair (probalby choose your favorite one out of the bunch, or if they are very pricey where you are, maybe try the cheapest option (should not be more than $50/pair, $12/fish is typical though), wait a month see how it goes, then try more. Also, I'd add them after the tetras are in, those tetras will go a long way in making the apistos feel at ease. If your biofilter is not ready for them I would wait. For example, if you add 25 tetras, I'd wait a good 2 weeks before adding anything more(gotta let the plants/biofilter catch up). Hope that helps, but the bottom line I wouldn't wait a year to get them (although waiting a year to add all 3 pairs is not a bad idea, you come across a really cool apisto, or other dwarf and not have room for it otherwise)!


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

If your angels or apistos spawn, you may be in for some "fun" times, lol. Dont' underestimate the sassitude of a female apisto with fry!

I like polyfilter to help with bio issues when adding new stock- it changes color to a bright yellow when absorbing ammonia. Very effective stuff.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> The apistos love the driftwood, if there is a little nook in it, they could use that as a spawning site. They won't mind any tannis it leaches either. I don't have any right now, just a shrimp tank, but I'm currently cycling a new 20L for a pair of A. borelli and a pair of golden eye dwarfs. Although I'm tempted to try Agasizzii tefe blue or bitaeniata again. I've kept: Caucatoides orange flash and triple red, wild agasizii, wild bitaeniata, and steindachneri. If I could only have one fish it would be an apisto(or hopefully a pair of them). Some of them are more sensitive and demanding (A elizabethae, pertensis, diplotaenia, medezii) althought the sensitive ones are less common, but the species on your list are probably some of the easiest. Borelli for instance can handle a wide range of pH and hardness, and also temperatures as low as 50F. If your tank is cycled(~6 weeks) it should be ready for apistos, but I would get a 1 pair (probalby choose your favorite one out of the bunch, or if they are very pricey where you are, maybe try the cheapest option (should not be more than $50/pair, $12/fish is typical though), wait a month see how it goes, then try more. Also, I'd add them after the tetras are in, those tetras will go a long way in making the apistos feel at ease. If your biofilter is not ready for them I would wait. For example, if you add 25 tetras, I'd wait a good 2 weeks before adding anything more(gotta let the plants/biofilter catch up). Hope that helps, but the bottom line I wouldn't wait a year to get them (although waiting a year to add all 3 pairs is not a bad idea, you come across a really cool apisto, or other dwarf and not have room for it otherwise)!


Sounds good! I have the mopani in the tank, adorned with Anubias. It features a long "hall" through the center lengthwise and has 2 exits. I will be waiting for sometime for Apistos. Turns out my LFS hasn't gotten Diamond Tetras in for a year now! He's going to try to get some through his supplier, but not sure how long before his supplier will get any. So, sounds like it will be just the 2 Angels, Betta and 8 Kuhli loach. Bet the Kuhlis will take up house in the mopani.

Good luck to you in getting yours  Be sure and share pics of them! And thank you for adding Apistos to my tank 



msjinkzd said:


> If your angels or apistos spawn, you may be in for some "fun" times, lol. Dont' underestimate the sassitude of a female apisto with fry!
> 
> I like polyfilter to help with bio issues when adding new stock- it changes color to a bright yellow when absorbing ammonia. Very effective stuff.


Thanks for the ammonia tip  That'll be one to remember. I am hoping my Angels are same sex. Since I only have two, being same sex shouldn't raise any issues other than occassional dominance (at least that's what I'm told. Hope it's good info)

Hopfully when that time comes for Apisto fry, my betta has already learned not to go poking her nose in the Apisto house!


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## Rofl-Pofl (Nov 16, 2012)

woooow... very interessting....


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Rofl-Pofl said:


> woooow... very interessting....


Happy you have enjoyed this thread. It has been a journey! Thanks to everyones posts it has really come along into a very informative thread for me


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Here are the three Best Friends...who would have thought 2 Angels and a Betta would shoal together. They rarely leave eachother so this is why I call it a shoal.










BTW, the Betta runs things. Where she goes the Angels will follow HaHa!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

So I was reading about the Apisto species today and found that the Agassizzi and the Borellii species need a harem of 3-4 females per one male. Maybe it would be best to stick to only one species in this case. What do you think? (Note: it will be a year before I add Apistos to my tank; just like to know what I am doing way before I do it. I hate uneducated decisions)


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

You should start up a tank thread to track your tank's progress. I'm going to for my 20L before I start adding livestock in a few weeks. I'm so bummed my LFS supplier doesnt have borellis on thier list any more, they had the Opals and the Yellow form in stock just a week ago. Might have to go with a diffrent apisto! And I applaud you for doing your research before adding things wrecklessly to the tank-most people don't and they end up paying for it in the long run.

Most apistos do fine with multiple females per male-and some people like to get trios 1M, 2F, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. You don't want 2M 0F, or 2M 1F though but if the tank is large enough they could each stake out a territory. The males are agressive at the drop of a hat when they see another male, but they will only stake out so much of a claim, for example, the dominant male my try to claim a 12" radius around your driftwood, and usually he will only become aggressive when he spots a rival male. That is why you can get away with 3 males in your tank easily. There are a few exceptions that only work in pairs (nijsenni/panduro). In my experience the females only become territorial when they are preparing to spawn (which if conditions are good can happen every month). They turn bright yellow and will start cleaning a nest site. So if they are not breeding, they can just kind of mill around looking for food and unlike the males-avoiding any conflicts. Also you can easily fool the males with a mirror. He will turn colors and flare all his fins/gills at it. 

For me I don't really see the advantage to having more than pairs, other than to always have a female spawning-and I've heard some interesting stories of the females trading children-but your mixed species offspring could mingle just as well(I've heard of apisto's taking in live adult brine shrimp as their own..). A trio of apistos will need more space than a pair, as you will need to provide caves for each of the females-with enough space for them to spawn at the same time. Otherwise those extra females will have to just lay low until the dominant lady is done using the cave.

It's interesting you should research the parental care tendencies of the species you like, the various species males have differing levels of involvement in "child" rearing, I think the borelli's are supposed to be very good fathers. I've seen caucatoides males snack on fry so they are bad daddies-so usually the mother charges him if he gets close to them!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> You should start up a tank thread to track your tank's progress. I'm going to for my 20L before I start adding livestock in a few weeks. I'm so bummed my LFS supplier doesnt have borellis on thier list any more, they had the Opals and the Yellow form in stock just a week ago. Might have to go with a diffrent apisto! And I applaud you for doing your research before adding things wrecklessly to the tank-most people don't and they end up paying for it in the long run.
> 
> Most apistos do fine with multiple females per male-and some people like to get trios 1M, 2F, but I wouldn't say it's necessary. You don't want 2M 0F, or 2M 1F though but if the tank is large enough they could each stake out a territory. The males are agressive at the drop of a hat when they see another male, but they will only stake out so much of a claim, for example, the dominant male my try to claim a 12" radius around your driftwood, and usually he will only become aggressive when he spots a rival male. That is why you can get away with 3 males in your tank easily. There are a few exceptions that only work in pairs (nijsenni/panduro). In my experience the females only become territorial when they are preparing to spawn (which if conditions are good can happen every month). They turn bright yellow and will start cleaning a nest site. So if they are not breeding, they can just kind of mill around looking for food and unlike the males-avoiding any conflicts. Also you can easily fool the males with a mirror. He will turn colors and flare all his fins/gills at it.
> 
> ...


I have a thread called "My Ever-Evolving Tank". It is under Aquascapes instead of tank journals. I've tried to have it moved to no prevail unfortunately. Here it is if your interested  http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=195675

12" radius...would I need to have barriers in between the caves if they are spaced 12-13" apart? Something like plants to break the line of sight? Or would all be fine keeping the center of the tank open? Right now I have a dw cave on the left and open space in the center with some denseness on the right. I can easily add another cave to the right side, and one to the back center wall, but would hate to have plants through out the center to break the line of sight. What do you think?

Sounds like having pairs is more my style because I am not looking to constantly having breeding females. I just thought that perhaps the reason for having 3 females to one male was to prevent the male from harrassing his mate when she doesn't want to breed.

Thank you for your input!


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Yea it is tricky finding tank threads, I think I'm going to try to put mine in my sig, seems to be a good way for people to find it.

Your starting to get the hang of the apistos already! Yes their aggression is purely sight based, that is why a mirror is all it takes to set them off. So breaking their line of sight is very effective. You wouldn't have to do it though, really the main purpose would be to pack more "territories" into a tank. I.E. lets say you wanted to try a trio of cacatoos in a 10 gallon. You could put a cave on each side, then plant a wall of plants in the middle, and you could safely have 2 females breeding in an 18" tank. The same can be done for male territories. But if your tank is has enough real estate you wont need to worry so much about that. Leaving the middle open should be fine, if you add a cave their, that might be some prime territory!

And yes-in some species-the males will chase the females that are not ready to spawn, but in a planted tank, she easily sneaks away and the male goes back to doing his thing. It's really only an issue in a small tank, with very little plants and structure. Then once they spawn the tables have turned and the female doesn't want to see him near the nest(but most of the time she's in the cave tending the eggs, comes out every few minutes to kick some). If your worried about spawning female rage, you can put some plants around the cave so she doesn't see much when she sticks her head out.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> Yea it is tricky finding tank threads, I think I'm going to try to put mine in my sig, seems to be a good way for people to find it.
> 
> Your starting to get the hang of the apistos already! Yes their aggression is purely sight based, that is why a mirror is all it takes to set them off. So breaking their line of sight is very effective. You wouldn't have to do it though, really the main purpose would be to pack more "territories" into a tank. I.E. lets say you wanted to try a trio of cacatoos in a 10 gallon. You could put a cave on each side, then plant a wall of plants in the middle, and you could safely have 2 females breeding in an 18" tank. The same can be done for male territories. But if your tank is has enough real estate you wont need to worry so much about that. Leaving the middle open should be fine, if you add a cave their, that might be some prime territory!
> 
> And yes-in some species-the males will chase the females that are not ready to spawn, but in a planted tank, she easily sneaks away and the male goes back to doing his thing. It's really only an issue in a small tank, with very little plants and structure. Then once they spawn the tables have turned and the female doesn't want to see him near the nest(but most of the time she's in the cave tending the eggs, comes out every few minutes to kick some). If your worried about spawning female rage, you can put some plants around the cave so she doesn't see much when she sticks her head out.


Hey good idea! I think I'm going to to do just that in my sig! Since I never knew what to do with it anyway 

As it so turns out, the cave entrance has a "grass field" planted a couple inches away from it  The other side leads into a redleaf forest  

Hmmm...so, what do you think? Here is a pic of the tank (sorry for the brightness...I have a ton of bubbles going at the moment since I just added plants and the bubbles carry the light all over the place!) The Mopani cave is on the left side with the Anubias overhanging the top of it. The grass will fill in as well as the red leaf forest in the back. I plan for it to surround the Penguin sponge. On the right side there are plenty of twisted roots near the substrate and will fill in with a red leaf forest as well behind the dw and a grass field in front just as on the other side. Would this area suffice as a cave? Or should I add something to it? Once the plants fill in it will be pretty dense with a passageway at the front base of the manzanita dw. Than, straight back to the rear wall I could put a smaller piece of mopani dw that offers a cave surrounded by grass. ???? Just thinking out loud :redface:









If this was your tank, and you wanted to add 3 pairs of Apistogrammas (2 Borellii, 2 Cockatoos, and 2 Agassizzi) what you do with the space?


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

I would add a cave of some kind near the middle right, kind of back in among the plants there. Also add a cave to the far right side-more towards the front of the tank, and make sure some plants fill in somewhere between the two right side *caves. I wouldn't fret too much about it though, you have such a big tank 3 pairs of apistos will be fine with any configuration-go with what you think looks the best-aquascaping is hard enough already!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

james1542 said:


> I would add a cave of some kind near the middle right, kind of back in among the plants there. Also add a cave to the far right side-more towards the front of the tank, and make sure some plants fill in somewhere between the two right side *caves. I wouldn't fret too much about it though, you have such a big tank 3 pairs of apistos will be fine with any configuration-go with what you think looks the best-aquascaping is hard enough already!


Okay great! Thanks  Will c what I can come up with far as more mopani.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

So, 25 Diamond Tetras will be here next week! They will be going into the 20 gallon QT for awhile before adding them to the main tank. The family is very excited!


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Amandas tank said:


> So, 25 Diamond Tetras will be here next week! They will be going into the 20 gallon QT for awhile before adding them to the main tank. The family is very excited!


lol - folks in Virginia are excited too - I can't wait to get a peek of what my future tank will look like :icon_wink


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

driftwoodhunter said:


> lol - folks in Virginia are excited too - I can't wait to get a peek of what my future tank will look like :icon_wink


LOL! I love you! You are the so great and making me laugh


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## toddg (Feb 3, 2010)

Blue Reef Aquatics
5960 Losee Rd.
North Las Vegas, NV 89081
702.252.7333

Will go check them out today, thanks!


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