# complete n00b first time nano (pictures + development "blog")



## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hello all,
ive been stalking the forum for a couple of weeks and finaly taken the dive and got my old goldfish tank out from in the shed and i want to start a planted nano 
2 things however are troubling me
i live in a area of the uk that has extremely hardwater (staffordshire moorlands) and havent a clue what equipment i need to get started (filter lighting heating etc)
and is the tank i have too small its 8 inches deep 8 inches tall and 16inches wide i dont know how many gallons this is not many i dont think is it too small? 
i planned to keep some shrimp and some (no more than about 8-10) guppies or similar, somthing nice and bright and hardy 
any help would be great
a sort of tuturial would be brilliant i know the basics but not for a planted tank 
it is a side project however so i plan to keep everything DIY and as cheap as possible

thank you all in advance 
gareth


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## Nano-Nater (May 28, 2007)

I dont think having shrimps and 8-10 guppies in that tank would be a good plan also, the dimensions u gave are wrong

you said 8'' deep and 8'' tall, did you mean that the width is 8''?

With the demensions you gave i calculated 4.43 US gallons capacity


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah sorry, your right 8 inches width 8 inches high and 16 wide sorry for any confusion
sorry i dont know any stocking rules what would be better suited to such a small tank with hardwater?


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## Nano-Nater (May 28, 2007)

make a dwarf puffer tank:icon_surp
or a shrimp tank



I dont know if the rule changed but I heard about 1" of fish per gallon.

so dont go past 3-4 small fish i would say..


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

seriously a dwarf puffer? a bit ambitious for a newbee is it not? theyre not all that colourful either are they?


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## quark219 (May 5, 2007)

garuf said:


> hello all,
> ive been stalking the forum for a couple of weeks and finaly taken the dive and got my old goldfish tank out from in the shed and i want to start a planted nano
> 2 things however are troubling me
> i live in a area of the uk that has extremely hardwater (staffordshire moorlands) and havent a clue what equipment i need to get started (filter lighting heating etc)...


Welcome to the site. I'm new here also, and I've gotten a tremendous amount of great advice from the experts on here in a very short time. Regarding equipment, just find tanks on here that you admire and ask questions of the aquascaper and emulate. If you're a beginner, as I am, you'll probably still wind up making a number of revisions to your setup in the first few months. The one bit of equipment advice I'd offer is that, if you want to grow plants, you'll need far more light than you'd ever expect on a little tank. For a tank of your size, I'd estimate you'll need a minimum of 20 watts--26 (2 x 13 watts) would be even better.



garuf said:


> ...and is the tank i have too small its 8 inches deep 8 inches tall and 16inches wide i dont know how many gallons this is not many i dont think is it too small?


Based on your dimensions, the tank you have is 4.43 US gallons. That's just fine for a nano--lots of people on here (myself included) are using 2.5 US gallon tanks.



garuf said:


> i planned to keep some shrimp and some (no more than about 8-10) guppies or similar, somthing nice and bright and hardy
> any help would be great a sort of tuturial would be brilliant i know the basics but not for a planted tank it is a side project however so i plan to keep everything DIY and as cheap as possible
> 
> thank you all in advance
> gareth


Eight to ten guppies might be pushing it. Using the old "inch-of-fish-per-gallon" rule, your tank would probably be at or around capacity with four or five guppies (or some other similar sized fish). Best of luck!

Scott


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## Nano-Nater (May 28, 2007)

well dwarf puffers are 100% freshwater, they grow up to 1" max and have a very interesting personality. I have a dwarf puffer and I can tell you they are very easy and fun fish, as for the color they are pretty much all yellowish/brown with black spots, but they all are different.

If you are interested heres a good site with a forum and great information on them, www.dwarfpuffers.com


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## LeapingGnome (Apr 15, 2007)

4.5 gallons, you can get some shrimp and 4 guppies or so. I would suggest all males. 

As far as lighting and plants, you said you want to keep costs down so I wouldn't go overboard with light. Get a nice 10-20W and some lowlight plants is my opinion. Here is a nice little article from another site with some easy start plant types - Setting up your first planted tank.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hey scott thank you for the tips you say your using 2.5gall how many fish can you keep in a tank that small?

and thanks for the dwarf puffer suggestions i dont think theyre for me but ill look into the for sure 
idealy once i know what hardwear i need in my tank 
again thanks 
gareth


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers for the link leaping gnome ive found an old 15w bulb from my dads old tropical tank only thing is its as big as the tank is long and a bit bit i fear  is it possible to rig up anything using ultra-bright LED's does anyone know? i use these quiet often and they kick out a fair bit of light but is it any use to aquariums?


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## quark219 (May 5, 2007)

garuf said:


> hey scott thank you for the tips you say your using 2.5gall how many fish can you keep in a tank that small?


I keep one male betta and that's it: based on the algae growth, I'd say that's about all that this tank can manage. I'm planning on adding a few Malaysian trumpet snails and a few shrimp (for algae control), but no more fish. Bettas, of course, are about two or three times the size of guppies. If I were keeping guppies, I'd probably have no more than 3.

If you're looking for an easy fish (albeit not very colorful), I hear white cloud mountain minnows are a good choice. They do well in a cold water tank, so you wouldn't need a heater, either. Four white clouds, three ghost shrimp, and a bunch of java moss, with a 13W - 20W light and a simple hang-on-the-back filter, and you'd be all set. That'd be one approach, anyway.

Scott


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

again thank you, i do like bettas (siamiese fighters?) i used to have one in my shared tank (dad bought it i named the fish) i realy dont know what to have in this setup i just wanted somthing bright and colourful and im familiour with guppies already these might not be what i use in the end just an initial idea
gareth


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## Solstice (Jan 9, 2006)

I vote for a pair of sparkling gouramis. http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_sparkling.php If I didn't have shrimp in my tank I'd definitely have a couple of these guys in there roud:


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers solstice theyre realy lovely fish
i still need to know more about filtration heating and lighting though ive been unsucsessful in finding anything about the hardwear side anyone have any recomendations?


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## Nano-Nater (May 28, 2007)

i used to have a sparkling gourami.. but i fnd them really shy fish.. at least mine was..


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## Solstice (Jan 9, 2006)

Azoo Palm Filter or if you like a cannister, ZooMed 501.

I have a 50 watt Visitherm Delux in my 3g with no complaints.

Try to find a 27w or 32w full spectrum desk lamp for lighting.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thank you for the links ill make a trip down to my local to see if i can find any of them in their.
i got my tank all cleaned its amazing how difficult it is to get 3 years of shed based cack of the sides it is however a little knocked here and there so its sitting on a shelf with a tray underneather to check if its water tight still 
fingers crossed it will be i dont have much money to spend on this project

if it is then its a matter of finding decor gravel soil plants... haha


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

I'd go for a bigger filter than the azoo palm, the zoomed canister works well.
Try a whisper10, cascade, or any of the smaller hang on the back filters.

for fish, endler's livebearer are great, the male topout at like 3/4" maybe, the females are a little larger. the males have a rainbow of colors on them, and you can have some shrimp with them.

For the record, your tank is a good size for a nano. mine is a little less than a gallon.


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

get 5 small fish such as ozxyias (sp) or a rasbora
you dont need meters of shiney fish to make a statement
if anything the absence of lots of fish will make it peacefull


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks for the filter recomendations i visited the local pet shop (pets a home*shudder*) and they had nothing, no small filters, no substrate suitable not even any replacement bulbs just fish and tanks and loads of gawdy orniments and flourescent gravel :icon_roll ill be trying glovers tommorow to see what i can get from there fingers crossed i wont be dissapointed again 
any tips on which substrate i should go for an how much ill need?


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

drawn up a shortlist of equipment
filters: 
Azoo Mignon 240
or 
Eden 501 (pricier less atractive option) 

heating 
AquaEl Aquarium Heater 50W
or
JBL Protemp - 50W

i was going to use ada amazonia, one thing does does it need a layer of gravel over the top? 

is this a good set up or is their a better option?
sorry to keep asking so many questions


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

Aquasoil needs no topping. I don't know how hot you keep your house, but i think you COULD ditch the heater if you want. i really don't think the azoo is gonna do it, i have redsea's Exact replica of it in my 1g and it is BARELY enough.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks dufus good call, my house is an old quarrymans house and suseptable to stupid changes in temperature with having no central heating just a central coal burner so heatings an esential, 
im going to go for the 501 and try and cut costs elsewhere i envisioned this as a pocket money project and its rapidly aproaching £100+ but ho hum im determained 
lighting is the thing currently baffling me as i was going to order all my stuff from aqua esentials and i realy dont know what im looking for 
ive looked everywhere for a full spectrum light so this isnt a viable option 
i understand i need alot of light but i dont understand tubes sizes or anything 
would the DIY option be cheaper for lights and if so what would i need?


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

anyone? :help:


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

did some hardscaping built a slate wall, waiting for equipment to arrive (well just a 25w heater :icon_smil ) have a looksee 








sorry about the quality im using a webcam :icon_roll


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

does anyone have any ideas on the suitability of the Arcadia 11wArc Pod for lighting? looks like it would do the job but the wattages is so low?!


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

got wood?
i have








heres what i want to acheive using the powerful editing program that is ms paint the plant choise isnt set yet just a rough idea ill have to find some plants that like liquid rock once im set up 

all suggestions welcome, and again sorry for the terrible picture quality some of us are cheapskates :icon_roll


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

bump bump bump:flick:


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

plan looks nice although you may want to try something a bit simpler
you want nothing to go wrong right?
slatewalls imo look pap  but hey its your tank

try looking at theese pictures, with aquasoil and half decent lighting they are attainable to a newbie!

























as you can see they dont need much plants, so should help cut down on the budgets
also you should use easy plants, i reccomned e.tennelus and riccia, moss, glosso

for lighting i would maybe go for a powercompact fixture, look at the bulbs on aquaessential, and find one that is roughly the same length or smaller than your tank, then get that and the corresponding starter unit
you could go unheated, and get wc minnows maybe 3-5 of them(the plants wont mind being unheated) 

anyway hope i helped, felix (also a uker)


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

mmm i see where your coming from but i built the slate wall because i thought it looked good (see other gareths slatewall







) but you know each to their own.
those tanks are all lovely, look highly over stocked but lovely never the less, i realy like the 1st tank on the right in this picture








where in the uk are you from i need a good lfs for the midlands glovers is good but annoyingly difficult to get what i want from


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

im from scotland brotha
i work in a lfs in edinburgh called aquacadabra lol
in the midlands try the one in rutland or theres a good one in notts
i know this because my granparents and other family live up there


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

wicked, thank you 
thats an imaginatively named shop lol 
i was in edinburgh at christmas visiting friends, im not a fan of the city but edinburgh is amazing 
this planted tank nano dealies coming together for me now, ive got a clear idea except for finer details know im after, truely a first! 
cant wait to get fish in it maybe even start another!
now youve said about slate looking naff im starting to agree, it does make the tank look bigger though :$


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

RAWRRRRRR DAMN HEATER GAVE ME A HAIR LINE CRACK
from corner to corner right where it sticks to the glass, 
new tank time 18x12x12 me thinks?
cant believe it as soon as i was full of water TYPICAL


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## BenScoobert (Jun 15, 2007)

garuf said:


> does anyone have any ideas on the suitability of the Arcadia 11wArc Pod for lighting? looks like it would do the job but the wattages is so low?!


I have a 9w on my 20l and seems fine, my brother has the 11w on his 35l and i think it needs 2 tbh, nice little tidy unit though. I think www.guppysales.com has them, if not on website email him, very helpful supplier


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

so, the 16x8x8 got smashed and i cut my hands in the process (i think i must be cursed at times) went to glovers today and spent an hour staring aimlessly about the place, (they have some TINY puffers in which i asume are dwarf but theyre looking very sorry for themselves and alas where not for sale) anyways i bought a 18x12x12 and rooted about the place also bought 2 triton 15w bulbs and assosiated starters... forgot to buy a lid but this isnt much of a problem im sure weve some glass somewhere about to go into the shed and build a lid and get this show on the road
ps. man in glovers said "if you start using all these fancy gravels youll find it harder to look after than a marine tank, y'know whar'a mean? just use peat topped with sand or gravel never fails" 
is he right or am i better with a proper substrate?


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

get aquasoil from here www.aquaessentials.co.uk the lfs guy is wrong they make it easier to grow plants, just remember to do lots of WC for the first 2 weeks after you have setup

liek this day1 add the stuff
day2 50% WC
day3 20%
day5 10%
day7 10%
day 10 10%
day 14 10%

after that just do 50% a week religiously!


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers before i start i wanna cover al my options soooooo
does any one know how id do one that looks like this...


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## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

How? With years and years of constant experimentation and experience, that's how.

Or you could possibly try to buy some Black ADA driftwood sold at ADGshop.com. 
Then you could buy some moss, probably willow moss is used here (Amano likes to use willow moss) and then I think I see some bolbitis.

Now if you're trying to get a nano look like that, then your best bet for hardscape is to put an order through manzanita.com. They sell really nice wood and just buy the sandblasted kind and tell them you wanted some for a small aquarium. They try to get nice looking pieces for you.

Now you will probably still use willow moss, and maybe narrow leaf java fern instead of bolbitis since bolbitis grows huge. Narrow leaf java fern grows huge too, but you could just pluck out the leaves that grow too large.

Good luck!


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i dont know about the availability of willow moss over here in the uk i know i can deffinatly get java moss and narrow leaf java fern how about vallis and some hair grass would that work?
and cheers for the wood tips (Y)


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

just a thought is 2 x 15 watt overkill on such a small tank or would a single 15watt be sufficient?
ps sandiegaryu (sorry for the terrible spelling) i emailed the wood people you recommended just awaiting an email reply


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

tropica stock willow moss, just pm rich on the aquaessentials forums and he will order some in for you


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## Haeun (Mar 9, 2007)

As for the substrate, you would want to use a nice nutrient enrichened substrate (i.e. aquasoil, etc) for where the plants/driftwood are (seems like the tank in the picture also has some "grassy" plants) and then fill the open areas with sand.

You would want to separate the substrates (the sand from the nutrient enrichened substrate) so they don't mix.

As for the mosses, search around the SnS area.


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

In a small tank, I highly recommend fissidens and mini pellia to achieve the look you'd get with mosses. Mosses in tiny tanks = constant trimming to keep them in shape.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks for the advice on the moss juabeegas and thanks for the aqua scaping tips haeun got all the stuff i need waiting in the shopping basket gotta wait for my money to clear in the bank (was a victim of card cloning and only put money in when im gonna take it out) 
which power sand do i need with aquasoil amazonia?
also started to make a hood lighting is so awkward to fit but im getting round it still dont realy understand the watts per gallon rule on 10gall thing and rex griggs guide as good as it is still left me confused as to just how much light i need 
15w or 30w?


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

hey garuf, you do not "need" power sand, i dident use it (i used a jbl susbtrate fert florapol) but by god it helps! get powersand special S

juanbeegas has some very good advice and i second it


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

ill get that then thanks for the advice
cant wait to get it scaped and full of water starting to get anxious to see it finished now, no patience at all:icon_redf


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

WELL, in the end i didnt get powersand as i couldnt afford and got sick of waiting :lol: so instead ive used just aquasoil, which arrived today and so far it looks realy good a lot lighter than i thought it was going to be but still its all good, the waters hellova cloudy mind should clean up over night though i recon, if not activated carbon in the filter should work (?) 
the eden 501 arrived today with the aquasoil and its SILENT i cant hear it if i put my ear to the motor! surely a sign of quality!
unlike my large chunk of drift wood that refuses to sink :roll:


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

Your wood makes noise?
lol, just kidding. the aquasoil really is great, but keep up waterchanges or you'll have algae battlegrounds like me!!


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

psshhhhh algae?! best get some duck weed works a charm for getting rid of algae... shame its such a nasty peice of work to get rid of once its done its job:hihi:


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

Try to get ahold of fairy moss, _Azolla caroliniana_, it's a tiny floating fern, quite invasive, not as much as duckweed, and it sticks to you so it's easier to get rid of.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i think my lfs has fairy moss im i remember reading it on one of the labels, 
i realy should have bought plants before i filled up with water, never thought about it till now and its too late, oh well, 
java moss, java fern, riccia and some anubias?


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

It sounds like you are doing low light with those plants? Riccia is not a low light plant, go with pellia.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers for the advice, any ideas on other suitable plants?
also, how long does it take for the water to clear with aqua soil, and do the little bits of wood sink or should i fish them out?


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

ok, so ive got yellow water with my aquasoil did the 50% water change felix recomended and it made no diffrence as far as i can see. ive still got lots of little bits of wood floating at the surface and im at a loss as what to do about getting the water clear, or is it one of those things that sorts its self out?


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

yes it will sort itself out, just keep doing WC
just pull the little bits of wood out

imo though you should drain the tank, its really hard to plant with water in plus you will stir up the aquasoil and it will be cloudy for ages
just drain the water down to level with the substrate (maybe a milimeter above) and plant


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers felix, the most of my plants i was going to attach to the large bit of drift wood that wont sink, i could realy do with a low light carpeting plant, failing that ill just run a second bulb and have 30w over ten gall









ps. am i right in thinking that if i stick one of the cermaic "o's" from my dead filter thats not been in any water for about 7 years it'll kick start the bacterior or will it be long since dead from being out of the water for so long?


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

long since dead, but it will eventually colonize.
Trust me, the tanned water is nothing, my 2.5 w/AS is pretty much completely green.

do WC religously!!!


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah dufus ive seen, my god i hope mine doesnt do that!
good luck with getting it sorted out. and thanks for the advice.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

on the mater of temperature, whats an idea temp? im running 25degrees atm and i dont know if this is a bit much, would 24c be better?
also, will dwarf hair grass work in this tank? i recon itd look good as a middle distance plant
thanks in advance


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

DHG needs direct, moderately brigth light, in other words, it's a high light plant.


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

25c sounds fine


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

Try boiling the piece of wood. It'll cause trapped air to expand and force its way out of the wood. It always works for me.
The piece of wood is nice. I'd say to leave most of it bare and just attach some fissidens to parts of the wood, have a nice bunch of stems(hemanthius micantemoides would be nice, the small leaves will make the tank look bigger than it really is) in the background with some E. tennelus, attach some mini pellia to pebbles and have a HC field. I'd also suggest really tidying up that substrate line in the front... It does effect the way an aquascape looks. I did a bad job on the pic, but I hope you can see what I mean.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

juanBeegas said:


> Try boiling the piece of wood. It'll cause trapped air to expand and force its way out of the wood. It always works for me.
> The piece of wood is nice. I'd say to leave most of it bare and just attach some fissidens to parts of the wood, have a nice bunch of stems(hemanthius micantemoides would be nice, the small leaves will make the tank look bigger than it really is) in the background with some E. tennelus, attach some mini pellia to pebbles and have a HC field. I'd also suggest really tidying up that substrate line in the front... It does effect the way an aquascape looks. I did a bad job on the pic, but I hope you can see what I mean.


WOWOWOWOW!
someones been industrious 
thank you for the suggestions! and the picture/diagram!
i did boil the wood for a good 3 hours before i filled the tank but it just refuses to sink i think it might have lost its bouyancy now but i wont know until i do a water change later one (thats the reason the AS was so wonky, its been rectified now using a ruler).
can i be realy cheeky and ask you to post up full names for the plants you recommended so i can track them down or get them ordered in for me:icon_redf. looking through my cataloue (plantsalive) i can only find e. tennellus 
again thanks for the response, was extremely helpful (Y)


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

garuf said:


> can i be realy cheeky and ask you to post up full names for the plants you recommended so i can track them down or get them ordered in for me:icon_redf. looking through my cataloue (plantsalive) i can only find e. tennellus.


Sorry, my bad for being lazy...

HC - Hemianthus Callitrichoides "Cuba"
Hemanthius Micantemoides(my spelling mistake) - Hemianthus Micranthemoides(actual spelling)
Fissidens - Fissiden Fontanus
Mini Pellia - Riccardia Chamedryfolia

I might be wrong about the name for the mini pellia, I only know it as "Mini Pellia" and since I already know it's some kind of Riccardia species, I got the name off a search on Google.

Hope this helps.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thank you loads 
i realised i live near a stream over here in the uk so ive been to collect aload of mosses and some pellia look-a-like which im gonna post pictures up of in a minute or 2 once ive found my phone


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

moss numero 1

Shot with SAMSUNG at 2007-07-07

moss 2 

Shot with SAMSUNG at 2007-07-07

moss 3 

Shot with SAMSUNG at 2007-07-07

and last but not least moss 4 

Shot with SAMSUNG at 2007-07-07


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

PSHHHH terrible quality, camera phones are useless 
ok so i tied the mosses that i figured would work best to some pebbles and chucked them into a glass of tank water with some AS at the bottom and placed it on the top by the light, added bonus is that it looks quiet nice:tongue:


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

From your pics, mosses 3 and 4 might look like they're suitable for the pebbles I've suggested, but I'm not too sure. Were they found submersed? They look like they might be more terrestrial and not suitable for submersed conditions. 
Moss 2 could be tied sparingly to various parts of the driftwood, but I can foresee regular trimmings to keep them in shape and to keep them from overpowering the scape.
Alternatively, moss 1 could be tied down to the pebbles and mosses 3 and 4 could be tied to various parts of the driftwood. Here's an old 8 gallon I did, it's long since been re-done and as much as I'd like to show the new scape, I don't have a camera(although I am working on borrowing one).








Using the moss as ground cover instead of attaching it to the wood allows me to go longer periods of just leaving it alone without it growing out too much and making the scape too top heavy. I mainly used Java fern and narrow leaf java fern plantlets in this, but if you look on the left and to the back, you should be able to see a Java fern leaf that's almost fully grown to get an idea of how small this tank actually is.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hello juanBeegas, i did some research and all the plants, with the exception of fissidens is available from tropica, so if i fail to get any from the swapnshop ill place an order.
all the mosses i collected are looking sorry for themselves which leads me to believe they where only underwater because of the flooding thats going on in this part of the world...shame realy.
i realy like the setup you posted,
where the fish jumpers to warrent the thick layer of floating plants?


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

There weren't any. I put those in to help with nutrient control and... well... I got lazy and just never took them out.:icon_redf I tend to be really lazy with most set-ups I've done and try not to touch things in the tank too often these days. I hardly even use CO2 any more.


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

moss#2 looks like fissidens to me.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers dufus, i dont know if any of the mosses will be suitable so ive got them at the temperature and water quality of the tank moss 2 looks greener than before as does moss 1 and 3 but i think this could be my eyes playing tricks on me, how long should i leave them for before i discontinue the experiment?


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

I'd say a month, or so would be a good test. Moss 2 was the only one of the bunch that looks like it can take submersed conditions.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

all plants ordered and on their way (except for fissidens, i got some java moss instead) 
should be planting this time tommomorow 
total noob question time,
does cycling start from the time you fill it with water or from the time you add plants? :redface:

juanbeegas, just to clarify is this what you ment?


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

java moss grows the fastest of all moss, maybe a bad thing for a smaller tank.
cycling starts from when the water goes in, only the time of cycling is reduced greatly by live plants.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

pshhhh, ill see if its too late to get it taken off my order, i dont mind trimming though if its too late.
if it is what moss would be a good idea as an alternative?
anyone have any ideas on getting drift wood to sink? mine STILL wont after being boiled, soaked and sworn at


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

Hi garuf, the area you have labelled as java moss is actually where the HM goes. The area labelled HM and ET is purely ET. 
Hope that helps.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thank you 
and thank you for the plant recommendations!
extremely helpful, i owe you a beer should i ever wind up in singapore:hihi:


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

POW! i now have a 36w t5 as lighting and own 7 tiger shrimps, which in theory should arrive next monday 
is their anything i should know about tiger shrimp that i dont? (i know next to nothing about them:icon_redf )
and is there anything i should know about t5 lighting that i dont?
(other than its quiet bright?)
alas, i have a horrible sneaking suspision that my tank isnt cycled enough to support animal life and i could end up killing my new purchases 
any ideas on a rapid quick start?


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

buy some TLC freshwater. or biopira, it's basically insta cycle, but it can fail if it's dead.

tigers need lower ph to breed.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

ive looked and cant get either in the uk, will the tetra safestart version work?
:help: :icon_frow


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

any of the bottled beneficial bacterias will, i don't know if that's it or not.


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

If your LFS carries Sera brand anything, ask them if they have Sera Nitrovic (sp?). Its basically a cycle in a bottle.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thank you,
planting is hard work HC especialy, why is it so bouyant?!
trying to plant hc with your hands is like trying to crack an egg with a slegehammer, just doesnt work.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

DONE


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

Looking good. Might I suggest something before you get too far? The main body of the wood where you have the moss attached? I'd suggest removing the moss and replacing it with Anubias Nana(petite) if you can. If you leave it as it is, the moss will grow out and you'll lose the "form" of the aquascape. The moss will grow out and mix with the moss on the pebbles, in the end, all you'd get is a moss mound if you left it as is.


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

I'll hasve to agree on the moss, but overall, it looks good.


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## FelixAvery (Jan 11, 2007)

looking nice, good luck


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thank you felix and dufus, 
and i have broken up the main moss clup and moved it to the ends of some of the branches as instructed and i have to say it looks better already, well worth the fuss
hc best be worth the fuss, planting that stuff is so unbeilvably frustrating lol


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

WHat lighting do you have on there?
haha! i see the spitfire logo or whatever backthere.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah, ol' flame head. spitfire wheels arnt as good as heroin wheels 
anyway enough skateboard banter
the light im using atm is 15w t8 but ive a 36w t5 arriving in the next few hours (its 20 past one in the morning here and the post arrives at 8.)
i didnt understand the watts per gallon rule so i went with the "for every square foot of water aim for 20watts of lighting" rule 
i hope 36w will be enough we'll see


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

sorry for the duplication of posts just trying to get it seen by the widest audiance


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

lighting sounds fine, especially w/t5.

i was just worried about the hc.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah i must admit i was scared the lighting wouldnt be enough to keep it alive till my new light arrives but it looks ok for the time being and it should arrive soon so i dont think ive much to worry about.
i need to know what fish would be ideal i was thinking neon tetras but i just read that they get too big for anything below 30gal in a old magazine


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

tiger shrimp + HC = lots of replanting


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

garuf said:


> tiger shrimp + HC = lots of replanting


Hahahah...:hihi: That's one of the reasons why people don't usually add shrimp until a much later date. It gives the plants time to root.

What fishes are available to you? Can you get your hands on any Boraras sp? A school of B. Merah, B. Urophthalmoides or B. Brigittae would fit nicely in that tank. You could also look into a school of Aplocheilichthys Normani - A nice elegant fish that's not too flashy and won't distract the viewer from the scape.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah well ive learned the hard way, im realy impressed with the tigers though theyre realy very amusing to watch. 
on the fish front im afraid non of the fish you listed are available to me i could try and get them ordered in especialy i supose.
i did sort of have my heart set on some neon tetras but itll be a few weeks yet before i put any fish in so it gives me time to look at all the options (que for people to suggest me some more :icon_lol: ) 
i also got a pair of huge java ferns to try and soak up some nutrients to limit any algea growth, fingers crossed this works im not sure but i think i can see some growing already


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Looks very nice for a first 

Would look killer with some dwarf anubias on the wood. Another small colorful fish to look into is Endler's live bearers, all males will avoid any young'ns from adding to the bioload. They are basically a guppy but smaller with a more intricate color pattern in my opinion, especially the "snake skin" Endler's. Very hardy fish. Keep your hard water in mind when choosing fish, there are quite a few nano appropriate fish I could recommend that prefer soft water, like Dario Dario.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Here is a link I'm sure you'll appreciate. If you google their scientific names, you'll see that many are under an inch (2.5cm), staying under an inch with all of your fish will not only be pleasing to the eye by avoiding clutter, but will also give you a lot more room to work with and more room for error.


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

endlers are very good choices, all males will give you an awesome display, and they shouldn't be able to eat any of the shrimp fry.

if you want to get females too, they're fairly ugly, and they'll breed like crazy.


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

garuf said:


> i also got a pair of huge java ferns to try and soak up some nutrients to limit any algea growth, fingers crossed this works im not sure but i think i can see some growing already



A method I've found that works is to start out slow... 6hrs of light to 10hrs of light over a period of about 2 months.
Good luck with the set-up.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hello thank you all, my lfs has endlers in at the moment and theyre stunning, like guppies, but better.
theres no dario dario in though, but my tanks not ready for an increase in bioload so its for probably for the best.
juanbeegas, thanks for the tip on starting up im going to set my timer to 7hours tommorow and see how it goes, ill also check my parameters and post them up so people can give me some guidance (god knows i need it)
also tommorow ill be making a diy co2 reactor to get some extra growth
again thank you for the suggestions and help
its always appreciated, 
more recommendations are always welcome


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## kaifyre (Jul 16, 2007)

Sparkiling gouramis are cool, but I kinda like the dwarf gouramis (not those heinous neon ones though - gross!). You might also try a small school of tetras (neons, etc.), since I've found those work nicely, and they're pretty flashy too. Or you could go the other way and drop the water a little, add some Java Fern and a bit of wood or rock and plunk a few Fidler crabs in there - just an idea.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hey, thanks for the suggestions, ive tiger shrimp in the tank already so its a no to the fidlers for the time being, i realy like neons myself but ive been told theyre not a good choice for a 10gall like mine id like to try them but i dont want to harm any fish.
i do have a soft spot for chocolate gourami theyre realy nice, honey gouramis are nice too but again, ive been told theyre not realy a 10gall sort of fish


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

You moved up from 5 to 11 gallons though, right? (sorry, too lazy to look back)

I think most people were steering you away from neons when you were dealing with a 5 gl, you might want to get some new opinions on the neons now that you have 11gls. Not that I would personally put any 1 to 2" schoolers in that small of a tank, but technically it's not really breaking the inch/gl guidelines if you had 6 in there. I still think it would look way better with snakeskin endlers, I told you those little suckers were cool.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

yeah im at 10/11 gallons now.
and, yeah im with you, i still dont think its a good idea for neons no matter how much i like them, im still in limbo as to wether i score a new tank thats about 3 feet long second hand from my nan since shes gone ill, if i get it then ill get some neons 
yeah im shocked by the endlers i only noticed them as i was leaving and was like WOW id seen pictures and thought they where a bit gaudy but theyre actualy realy nice, proliffic breeders too, in the tank theyd mixed male and female so as to not get any stray guppies in there and there was loads of fry. theyre not cheap though and are marked up as "rare" which is quiet ture for the uk since we (uk fishkeepers) seem to be drawn to guppys.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

my parameters are 
ammonia 1.5 
ph 7.4
no2 0.50
no3 10
what do they mean?
any recommendations?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

It's hard to be positive without seeing a few days of tests, but 1.5 amm and .5 no2 means your tank is on it's way to being fully cycled. You should see ammonia continue to fall and nitrites (no2) will probably build up some more, but eventually they will be gone too and it will be completely safe for fish. It could take a week, it could take three, depends how long no2 has been occurring.

My recommendation would be to not touch anything and let the cycle finish without interruption. Or else I would haggle someone at an lfs to let me have a filter off an established tank, then put it on and watch ammonia and nitrite drop, once one or both reach 0ppm I would add one fish. That old filter will sustain the fish while the plants, gravel, glass, and your own filter gets a nice sized bacterial colony to support more fish.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks for the advice jaidexl,
im going to rerun a params tommorow and ill post up parameters
i dont want to add fish for at least 2 weeks anyway i realy need to get my hc growing properly without it coming unplanted in huge clumps everyday (shrimps mumble mumble)
cant wait to be able to say its cycled feels like forever at times since i filled it


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

The important thing to remember is once ammonia reaches zero, you need to find a way to get more in there to perpetuate the bacterial colonization and avoid starving them and losing the cycle, whether it be a fish, some overfed snails or manually adding liquid ammonia every day or so to maintain around 1 or 2ppm ammonia. Those instant cycle starters won't do the trick as most are not effective in the first place and still won't maintain ammonia content if they were. Somehow you got some in there to begin with, I can actually fishless cycle a tank with my tap water (2ppm amm, ~5ppm nI, 5+ppm nA)


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

oh yeah, i have 7 tiger shrimp in, and some snails (who somehow got in my tank even though i washed everything, plants wood, rocks) that'll keep my ammonia up right?
how sensitive are otto's? i have some algae going down and i thought 1 would be the perfect addition?
the algae looks like this


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Otos are pretty sensitive to changes, I wouldn't put one in an uncycled tank. You should be good with your stock if you keep them fed with meaty stuff. The bac colony will be a bit small and you'll probably get a minicycle (amm and nI spike) if you throw multiple fish in at once.

I'm pretty sure that's bluegreen algae (cyanobacteria), no fish will eat it, but I've read rumors of flagfish or one of the species variants eating it. You'll want to read up on some cyanobacteria articles to find out how to get rid of it. I think aeration, circulation and manual removal are in order, there are store bought chems to get rid of it but I'm not sure they're good for your plants.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i checked out rex griggs guide and it says do a black out and add nitrate,
how do i add nitrate?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Rex sells it now, look at his fertilizer section for KNO3 (nitrate). Alternatively, I think tree stump remover is the same thing and can be found locally, just not sure where. Download Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator to figure out your nitrate dosage, The link is around somewhere, if I find it I'll post it.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks for all the help its greatly appreciated,
ive managed to get nitrate now from a uk shop so im good now, ive also got everything i'll need for dosing, potassiumnitrate potassium somthing and traces 
im going to run estimative index since this seems the easiest way of working and fingers crossed this should do the trick


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

EDIT: meant to post in your other thread.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

DOUBLE POST

Man, I'm really on a roll tonight... time for bed.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i see, whys that, liability or a gaurentee of returning or what?
currently the only way i can see being able to get the bottles refilled is by a welding specialist, or buying a huge bottle and filling myself like i used to do with paintball canisters.
im going to run diy for a month and if its too inconsistant ill invest in pressurised or if i dont think its working out over here adding co2 to get plants to grow is unheard of, i got laughed at by the guy in one place for asking if he had any, his responce being "are you trying to make a gas chamber for fish or somthing? adding carbon dioxide will kill everything" hes right, but only if its in excess, patronising customers is not good practice in any part of the world


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Yeah, they have pretty interesting opinions over here as well, but nothing like the look I got for buying Soilmaster Select (ball field top dressing) to put in an aquarium. If you think you could get better service by lying to them, just say you do wood carving with a turbo carver and you hate loud air compressors.

I'm not sure why they mainly do trade outs, I think it's a combination of needed certification to fill them and the fact that the canisters need to pass some periodic quality standard tests. I just finally found a place that refills where I don't have to drive for an hour. The trade in thing isn't so bad, but then I wouldn't buy my own shiny, brand new canister, I'd just buy a used one from the welding place so I don't feel like I'm giving away my baby when it comes time to trade out.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hahaha lying solves all problems "yeah i dont know whats up with my ipod it just stopped working" not "i dropped it in the sink while washing dishes"

as of yet i dont know what the situation will be with filling bottles, until i get chance to speak to my dads welder friend i wont know even know where any potential shops are, the uks small fingers crossed they'll be somewhere close.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I don't know where you are exactly, but I remember reading about how good this place is. My best friend came over from the Spalding area so that place always stuck in my mind. Probably not any good for getting CO2 filled but they might be able to guide you to a few places for that or other things, they've got some pretty nice discus tanks.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

oooo greenline i buy my plants from there, theyre realy realy good plants too, well where till i got my hands on them:icon_roll :icon_redf 
ill send him an email later on i need to order more hm and hc since ive a suspision mine will be dead by the time im done with the black out 

im in the midlands, stoke on trent btw


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

hey Garuf, IMO i really like the slate wall, may even nab it for my idea hehe looks different  lol and i now what its like trying to find any good shops unlike pets at home *quivers* (live in wales ) is it ok to just put in slate? would u need to like do anything to teat it before hand? why dont u try a small fluval 1 or the same one but by Eheim, rather small for filtration lol

ll Ash ll


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

ll Ash ll said:


> hey Garuf, IMO i really like the slate wall, may even nab it for my idea hehe looks different  lol and i now what its like trying to find any good shops unlike pets at home *quivers* (live in wales ) is it ok to just put in slate? would u need to like do anything to teat it before hand? why dont u try a small fluval 1 or the same one but by Eheim, rather small for filtration lol
> 
> ll Ash ll


hey ash, youll know i dropped the slate wall deal when i upgraded from that 5 gall to my 10 (the 5 got a hairline crack where my heater sat) 
regarding filtration i went for a eden 501 external, the best choicei made.
pets at home drive me up the wall honestly, theyre like asda for pets!  
regarding slate if it looks like theres rust in it dont use it, all you need to do is give it a good scrub dont use any detergants or soap theyre poisonous. where in wales do you live? thers a realy good one in caenarfon if i remember rightly, goes by the name peak aquatics
ps dont forget to silicon the slate wall together so it doesnt fall over, a rock fall could easily lay waste to your tank


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

awesome! kwl thanks for that, I live near swansea, ill try to check that place out. where did u get the eden from? online or shop? a howmuch did it cost?

lol also regarding pets at home i went there to price large tanks, so me and my rnts thought we would test them to see how knowledgable they were and this is how it goes lol

me: hey im looking at getting this 4 foot tank in my room, would it be ok with the weight etc? even with strong beams in the floor?

Staff: yeah! should be no problem at all, all u need is an avaerage ceiling.

me: seriously? it woldnt ay to much with rocks etc?

Staff: nah man! would be fine no probs

at that point we just left... pets at home...i rest my case


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i got mine from aqua essentials the filters amazing realy good quality, its a extrenal like your ehhiem extrenals but on a tiny scale, attach the in line to the inside of the filter same for the out prime with water and off you go, that simple. 
and it cost me £38 i think without checking invoices
swansea aye... join this forum too, its uk based so youll be able to get shop locations from people who are near to you http://www.fishforums.net/


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

well 20 mins from swansea lol but thats the largest place near, that or llanelli lol sure ill join up soon 

just joined


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

im a north wales man myself never made it into southwales
pets at home, to give them some credit are responsible for bringing new life blood to this hobby and thats what we need, also they stock things readily that id have a hell of a time finding otherwise, just because they dont know what theyre are and what theyre for doesnt mean we shouldnt buy them, try getting a diy reactor from a lfs, anything like my local and theyll look at you gone out yet pets at home have 2 diffrent systems available.


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

true they are good, i just never went back lol as fish ive had from there managed to wipe out my tank whn i was younger, a year long establised large tank, get a fish and poof whole tank taken out  but theres a local fish store known as forest mill and theyr great price always get my fish from there and they only ever die of old age lol very reliable if you pass down this way


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i had a tank when i was younger i shared with my dad used one of those holiday feeding tablets, killed everything, took till now to get back into things. gald i did its a nice change from skateboarding


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

lol, pretty much same here rents helped me set one up when i wa younger, moved away came back and remeberd about the whole tank and hooby and thought *now thats a hobby i can actualy put money into and be worth the time lol *

ll Ash ll


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

i got into this by chance from another website, instructables, some guy made a fish tank cd player and someone suggested nano fish from which i ended up here as a lurker, joined properly and never looked back, i rushed alot of things and id recommend everyone to take their time, you rush you make mistakes.


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## ll Ash ll (Jul 19, 2007)

funkeh, i got into it from the PTK magazine article on planted nanos was directed to this site lurked for bout month now and joined 

ll Ash ll


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

day 2 of the black out done, im doing well to battle the urge to look, ive a berried tiger in the tank and cant wait to see if shes ok and to do a water change and check my levels
once my ferts arrive how do i dose them? surely unless i dose them all at the same point my plants will still be malnurished giving algae a chance to return?
i sure hope this works a war with algae before i reach my "balance" is the last thing i want


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

jaidexl said:


> Looks very nice for a first
> 
> Would look killer with some dwarf anubias on the wood. Another small colorful fish to look into is Endler's live bearers, all males will avoid any young'ns from adding to the bioload. They are basically a guppy but smaller with a more intricate color pattern in my opinion, especially the "snake skin" Endler's. Very hardy fish. Keep your hard water in mind when choosing fish, there are quite a few nano appropriate fish I could recommend that prefer soft water, like Dario Dario.


hello, can you tell me the names off some dwarf anubias that i can track down?
i did a black out to cure my algae and my tank now looks sorry for its self, more plants time to make it nice again 
ill post some pictures tommorow once ive... no i wont i havent got a light 
when i have a light ill post up some pictures


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)




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## garuf (May 30, 2007)




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## garuf (May 30, 2007)




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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

garuf said:


> hello, can you tell me the names off some dwarf anubias that i can track down?


I'm not too up on the names of species variants or common names. Anubius nana and Anubius petite come to mind. There should be plenty of pics and info on a few options in the plant database here and at aquaticplantcentral.com, also check out plantgeek.net and tropica.com


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## juanBeegas (May 9, 2005)

Anubias Nana (petite) and Anubias Nana are about the only 2 that will stay small enough in a tank that size. Most other Anubisa Sp. get bigger and make things seem out of proportion for your tank.


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

Anubias barteri var. nana petite is the only actual tiny one (sometimes reffereed to as anubias barteri petite, and anubias nana petite)

Anubias nana is a smallish anubias, and would work nicely in your tank, the petite doesn't get bigger than about3" across.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hello and thank you all ill look into those anubias once im back and fighting fit i lost alot of plants neglecting there needs and ive learnt my lesson
im now dosing and will be running pressurised co2 once money allows 
i checked my parameters again today as well 
and they are :
ph 6.6 (was 7.4)
ammonia is 0 .25 (gone up from 0)
nitrate no3 is 5.0
nitrate no2 is 2.0
cycling still doesnt seem to have an end in sight


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

the aquasoil leaches ammonia for a few weeks, keep up strict waterchanges.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

cheers dufus i am doing 50-70% water change every sunday (Y)


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

purigen is amazing stuff, no more yellow water
ok so a warning to any t5 owners, BE CAREFUL when handling the bulb i just smashed one in my hands pushing it into the socket, not happy considering it only arrived on thursday and ive only just had the chance to fit it!
ordered more plants, some anubias barta var golden nana more hc and hm and e tennelus, not that ill need e tennelus, its growing so well but i figured it would be better to get some more dense planting since im quiet sparce and need more nutriant absorbing plants. cant wait for the HC to arrive so i can replant up the foreground, and the hm too since i killed the first bunch by not adding co2 nor ferts!
now im running EI everything seems to be healthier, i do think i need more co2 though, 
regardless i noticed some pearling the other day on my suitably named pearl moss
i do have thread algae though, i think this is simply because i have such nutriant rich water and not enough plants to soak it up. 
i could be wrong though
id post an update but one isnt realy needed since it looks alot the same just more green and less yellow


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

added some anubias had a bit of a battle getting them to stay in place and they a bit on the big size but they where cheap 3 for £9 added 2 otto's while i was at it, i was so glad to see 0 when i tested for ammonia today 
enough talk 
heres what it looks like at the moment


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Nice looking anubius, I gotta get some of that stuff one of these days.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

hey jaidexl, your unlucky that you live state side id gladly give you some cuttings (or what ever you call them)
ordered pressurised CO2 from germany once ive resolved an issue with ebay itll be on the way, diffuser the lot, wish i hadnt wasted my time with DIY but thats just how it goes i got some pearling which means happy plants and thats all that matters


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

It looks really nice with anubias.
I just added more to my 55g African cichlid comunity.
I had it all growing emmersed, we'll see if anything melts.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

dufus said:


> It looks really nice with anubias.
> I just added more to my 55g African cichlid comunity.
> I had it all growing emmersed, we'll see if anything melts.


fingers crossed itll be ok for you, and thank you for the compliments, id have liked to get a smaller species but they where the only time ive seen them so i was liek "  having them!"
my shrimplets have dissapeared since adding ottos i dont think they like them lol


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

little update.
tank as of 3 days ago, good growth except for hc. 
lots of algae and snails I suck at this planted tank lark :icon_redf :.


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## dufus (Nov 13, 2006)

it looks good to me, just wait a couple weeks without touching the algae, then do a 75% WC and 2x dose flourish excel everyday for a week.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

thanks for the tips dufus, I had posted a thread in algae after tips but I cant find it to see if I got any replies, I do know that one of the algae I have is blue-green algae which needs a black out. the rest I'm not sure about the ID of them. 
fingers crossed my hc will start to flourish its been nearly a month since I split them up and replanted them as individual stems and I've seen no noticeable growth. 
can't wait to see the tank algae free though, I reckon it will be beautiful.


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