# Many Male Bettas In 55 gallon Tank



## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

THIS EXPERIMENT WAS REVIVED, PLEASE SEE POST 44.
THE SECOND TEST HAS ENDED, PLEASE SEE POST 62





*January 16, 2016*

After watching a Youtube video showing 28 male bettas in one 55 gallon tank, I decided to test it out. 

The Inspirational Video: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCxbBt2BAxrQUj9MqBMxKnTA

So yesterday I bought 5 male bettas and put them in my 55g. Very interesting so far. At the very beginning, when they were put in the tank, two went to a corner and started fighting. Rolling together type fighting, and I thought the worst. But after about 1 min. of fighting for the corner of the tank, one retreated. That was that. The others have had minor chases, but no more 'rolling together' fighting. It has been almost 24 hours. They seem to know they don't have to fight since they are no longer in a small space. I do have parameters in this test:
*This tank also has 6 rummy nose tetras and three cory's. I figured the tetras would be a nuisance like the angelfish is in the original posted video. Keeps the Bettas' minds on something besides each other.
1. 55 Gallon Tanks
2. Only halfmoons & Split Tails (for now, but this may change)
3. Only small (maybe up to approx. 4 months old?)
4. Only pastels & blue/greens, no solid reds
5. Lots of hidey holes and floating plants on surface
6. Super clean water (I could probably drink it! :{)
7. 78-80 Degree F
8. Watching almost constantly (except when sleeping and all lights out)
9. Net STanding By to pull fish out if necessary and two 10 gallon medical/triage tanks ready (along with bowls if I have to separate all 5 fish.
10. Friends willing to take the fish and give them a good home if it all doesn't work out.
11. Bottle of gin.

*January 17, 2016*

So here is my video after about 24 hours with 5 male bettas in my 55g:
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQaj5WkvtLk

I floated a piece of coir on the surface. I'm using the betta logs to hold it up so it doesn't sink over time so much. On top I have grasses, creeping jenny, water lettuce, crypts, anubia, and a parlor palm that may take hold. I guarantee the bettas will be up on top of it by the end of the night! Neat, Huh?


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

Maybe try with other colors? I saw in your other thread that the woman had fish other than pastel colors mixed together.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

sohankpatel said:


> Maybe try with other colors? I saw in your other thread that the woman had fish other than pastel colors mixed together.


I will be doing that eventually. My experience with Bettas has me believing that the pastel bettas are a little less aggressive. I don't really have specific instances, but overall, it has been my experience. It appears she has a large amount of pastels, and no solid red or blues. She also only has halfmoons from what I can see, and she states one veil tail. There are sources that state the veils and solid colors, crown tails and many other conformations can be more aggressive. So it will be interesting to find out. Thanks!


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Strange how they hate red....

I have some super red platys, they have learned to steer well clear of my male betta. He turns into a bull when he sees red.... ironic, as he is red himself.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*January 18, 2016*

The two Bettas that fought the first day are doing fine. A little fin torn, but eating and show no more signs of stress. The betta that was breathing so hard in the video is fine. (Red Belly) There is some chasing. There is some wiggling up against each other in tight spots in the coir as they pass without any worries. They love the coir, and wedge themselves into it and just relax. Another betta can roll right over the wedged betta and it doesn't seem to care. I watched as one betta dug himself into the coir and then twisted his head back up so his tail was holding him down in the coir. Looked like a snake sticking it's head out of a hole. He stayed like that for a while, just watching the world go by, eventually wiggling out quickly to swim.

Algae is covering the plants that are shaded too much by the floating plants, but I am keeping those plants/mats in the tank because they have beneficial bacteria. This tank was completely gutted and the substrate taken out earlier this week. So I placed coir and plants from grow out tanks and other fish tanks to help supply that bacteria and nutrient absorption. I'll clean it up over the next few weeks. The fish like to graze on green algae. Water changes will be approx. 50% every three days, slowly changing to approx. 20% every three days, over the next month. That should ensure healthy water while the bacteria grows with the bioload. It will be a test to my ability, however, because I plan on stocking this tank quickly with more bettas to replicate the '28 Male Betta' tank video. The rummy nose tetras will be my water indicators. They cannot live without very good water, and will begin to die off quickly should the water quality deviate from 'excellent'.

Many of the bettas at the LFS are adult sized, so I am not buying them. It will probably take a month or two to get a full tank of bettas. I am not sure that I am willing to put 28 bettas in a tank. Maybe 15 will be enough to prove or disprove the '28 Bettas' long term compatibility. Although, it may be the crowded tank that keeps them from fighting. In the '28 Betta' videos on YT, she states she adds some Bettas individually over time. I am assuming she also adds two or three at a time when she finds them at her LFS.

Test Parameter Comparisons:

28 Male Betta YT Video Tank:
1 UV Light
3 Cannister Filters
1 Bubble wand
Many Plastic Plants
Some Caves
1 Angelfish

My Test Tank:
1 UV Light
1 Diatom Filter run after adding fish/plants and during cleaning 2x/week 
1 Bubble wand
Many Floating and some rooted plants in Coir
Three Betta Logs & Coir to hide in
6 Rummy Nose Tetras
3 Albino Corydoras


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks for the update. Sounds like a betta heaven. I never though of using coir that way.


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## PrimeObsession (Jan 8, 2015)

I used to keep two Dwarf Gouramis in a 20h with some Neon Tertas. When I first got them, everything was fine and they would even swim together. I thought everything was fine because I got them from the same tank at the local LFS. After about 4 months one of the fish started harassing the other. At first it was just at feeding time, but then after about another month I had to separate them because the dominant fish would harass the other constantly. Moral of the story is to keep an eye on things.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*January 18, 2006 Evening*

Now there are 8 male bettas in the 55g. I added two split tail, one halfmoon and one crown tail. The crown tail was banished from the tank within two hours. He hunted everything and everyone in the tank. All of the fish hid under whatever they could find, while he flared and flashed everything. So he is going to find a singular home. The split tails and halfmoons are doing well, not chasing or flaring much at all. Two of the new bettas are blue and blue/green. They are not showing much aggression at this point. The video shows the crowntail betta often flaring and chasing every other betta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTAObdxLkyU

Banished Betta:


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## Gavin Citrus (Aug 2, 2014)

I love experimentation, but I would recommend somewhat of a slow down on the additions. Just hate to see you end up with 18ish Bettas and all of a sudden the whole thing breaks down and you have to separate the whole crew.

Plus it'd be nice to see multiple days/weeks go bye with just the general crew doing their thing peacefully.


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

Interesting. I guess halfmoons really are less aggressive.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Gavin Citrus said:


> I love experimentation, but I would recommend somewhat of a slow down on the additions. Just hate to see you end up with 18ish Bettas and all of a sudden the whole thing breaks down and you have to separate the whole crew.
> 
> Plus it'd be nice to see multiple days/weeks go bye with just the general crew doing their thing peacefully.


Makes sense. However, the chance that the bettas will establish territories before I can add enough to prove or disprove the long term community idea could jeopardize the test. I believe the '28 Betta' tank was stocked quickly, with just a couple added here or there afterwards. By then, the crowded tank doesn't offer much room for territorial fights. The same philosophy works with stocking tanks with other types of aggressive fish. More spreads out the aggression . So I wanted enough fish to start this test. At this point, I will slow down. I just want to give it my best shot. I had friends in my house tonight watching this tank, and they were amazed. Thanks!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

randym said:


> Interesting. I guess halfmoons really are less aggressive.


It may be that after they are bred, they are just as aggressive as the others. I have a male halfmoon that I bred, and he was put into the tank, and taken back out within 2 hours as well. He was just like the crowntail tonight. So maybe older, and/or bred males are not a good choice for this setup. The '28 betta' woman said she got them all young, so probably never bred, and that may make all the difference. Another experiment for another time!


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## The Big Buddha (Jul 30, 2012)

I had a tank with females a while back, one was super aggressive, I floated her for a week in a floating breeder box, she eventually calmed down and fit in with the others. I remember reading somewhere to re arrange the tank and add them slowly back in, in the order of least aggressive first then most aggressive last. Not sure if this might help trying with males, but just my own experience.
Good luck with this experiment.

.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

The Big Buddha said:


> I had a tank with females a while back, one was super aggressive, I floated her for a week in a floating breeder box, she eventually calmed down and fit in with the others. I remember reading somewhere to re arrange the tank and add them slowly back in, in the order of least aggressive first then most aggressive last. Not sure if this might help trying with males, but just my own experience.
> Good luck with this experiment.
> 
> .


Thanks! Yea, I won't be using any tricks to make them get along other than keeping them as safe as I can by pulling any highly aggressive betta while testing.

Bump:


randym said:


> Thanks for the update. Sounds like a betta heaven. I never though of using coir that way.


I'm really loving coir. It is a bit messy, leaving some stuff on the bottom of the tank, but I net it out before running filters for cleaning.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

Following this one


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Just make sure not to use a coir washed with sea water. Coir often has lots of salt in because of that.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Nordic said:


> Just make sure not to use a coir washed with sea water. Coir often has lots of salt in because of that.


That is scary. I don't think it is possible to know, really. I buy it off of a bulk roll for 3$ ft. Garden centers or hydroponic suppliers mostly. Since most would not care about a little salt in those industries, I doubt it is listed one way or another. At any rate, I've been using it without issue in all of my tanks. But I will remember to soak it thoroughly before placing in tanks. I haven't done that before. Just shake it off, quick rinse and in the tank it goes.


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

AWolf said:


> Now there are 8 male bettas in the 55g. ... They are not showing much aggression at this point. ...


This sounds boring. Why not throw in a female betta? :surprise: Nothing wrong with a little ballroom blitz every now & then to liven things up a bit, eh?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Its not that hard finding clean enough coir, especially if you soak it a bit.
I used quite a bit of coir back in the day to grow mushrooms. They also don't like salt.


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## ShukiAi (Jan 20, 2015)

I just really feel like this is a bad idea. I had a sorority tank for a while, was going great for months, and then one day a female snapped and killed all my other females. Betta are not meant to be in tanks together. Like in the video, you're going to constantly see flaring and chasing and that is so stressful for the fish. I cannot imagine they are happy. At all. Maybe if you had two in a 55 gallon or larger (that way they could establish territories), but even then I wouldn't recommend it. I just feel really bad for the fish. :/


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## jaliberti (Dec 5, 2015)

ShukiAi said:


> ... I had a sorority tank for a while, was going great for months, and then one day a female snapped and killed all my other females. ...


And there ya go - that's your dominant female. The one that Nature wants to be bred. Did you breed her? I've kept "a sorority tank" of Plakats for more than 1 year, the 20 largest siblings of a brood in a 40g breeder until it was time to sell the ones I wasn't going to breed. I wasn't sure which should have been bred. A male Plakat was dropped in there for a few minutes until it was apparent that damage was imminent. He permanently changed the peaceful order and allowed the dominant female to identify herself. I imagine if that had never been done the sisters would have continued to coexist peacefully.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

ShukiAi said:


> I just really feel like this is a bad idea. I had a sorority tank for a while, was going great for months, and then one day a female snapped and killed all my other females. Betta are not meant to be in tanks together. Like in the video, you're going to constantly see flaring and chasing and that is so stressful for the fish. I cannot imagine they are happy. At all. Maybe if you had two in a 55 gallon or larger (that way they could establish territories), but even then I wouldn't recommend it. I just feel really bad for the fish. :/


I absolutely understand. Even though I am giving them an excellent water, it may not be the best environment. Stress for fish will be a constant that I want to keep at a lower level. It is the humane thing to do. By keeping fish in tanks, we are stressing them. In the wild, they have another kind of stress, and would not be able to survive if they weren't built for it. Considering those aspects of any life on earth, I am willing to accept responsibility for my curiosity and passion of the hobby. I am grateful to be a **** sapien. I get to be a part of discovery and advancement. I can manipulate my environment because of this incurable and insatiable appetite for knowledge. This privilege should not be taken lightly, or frivolously. As I explore this world, I am sure there are more important impacts my life has on this planet, than some fish in a glass container. These fish were bred to create joy in our hobby. This is how I enjoy the hobby. I like to test things and experiment. Most humans do. To be kept from doing so is cruelty to human beings. We are on top of the food chain for a reason: We mess with stuff we probably shouldn't all the damn time!>


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## ShukiAi (Jan 20, 2015)

jaliberti said:


> And there ya go - that's your dominant female. The one that Nature wants to be bred. Did you breed her? I've kept "a sorority tank" of Plakats for more than 1 year, the 20 largest siblings of a brood in a 40g breeder until it was time to sell the ones I wasn't going to breed. I wasn't sure which should have been bred. A male Plakat was dropped in there for a few minutes until it was apparent that damage was imminent. He permanently changed the peaceful order and allowed the dominant female to identify herself. I imagine if that had never been done the sisters would have continued to coexist peacefully.


Unfortunately, at the time I had a sorority I was newer in the hobby and didn't know as much as I do now. I also had no plans to breed them. I came home from work one evening and found a massacre in my tank. 



AWolf said:


> These fish were bred to create joy in our hobby. This is how I enjoy the hobby. I like to test things and experiment. Most humans do. To be kept from doing so is cruelty to human beings. We are on top of the food chain for a reason: We mess with stuff we probably shouldn't all the damn time!>


That's... really disgusting to me. I don't find the mis-treatment or torture of any creature enjoyable or fun.  Just because we're "on top of the food chain" doesn't give us a right to experiment and mess with other creature's lives. The point of the hobby to me is to own fish and give them the best care we can. Not throw them in less than suitable conditions just to experiment and see what happens. 

I guess to each their own... but it's just sad that the betta fish you have are living such stressful lives and may die prematurely as a result.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

ShukiAi said:


> Just because we're "on top of the food chain" doesn't give us a right to experiment and mess with other creature's lives. The point of the hobby to me is to own fish and give them the best care we can. Not throw them in less than suitable conditions just to experiment and see what happens.


Just want to say that putting an animal that was evolved for the wild in a glass cube is probably under the "less than ideal" conditions


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## jag51186 (Nov 30, 2015)

AWolf said:


> I absolutely understand. Even though I am giving them an excellent water, it may not be the best environment. Stress for fish will be a constant that I want to keep at a lower level. It is the humane thing to do. By keeping fish in tanks, we are stressing them. In the wild, they have another kind of stress, and would not be able to survive if they weren't built for it. Considering those aspects of any life on earth, I am willing to accept responsibility for my curiosity and passion of the hobby. I am grateful to be a **** sapien. I get to be a part of discovery and advancement. I can manipulate my environment because of this incurable and insatiable appetite for knowledge. This privilege should not be taken lightly, or frivolously. As I explore this world, I am sure there are more important impacts my life has on this planet, than some fish in a glass container. These fish were bred to create joy in our hobby. This is how I enjoy the hobby. I like to test things and experiment. Most humans do. To be kept from doing so is cruelty to human beings. We are on top of the food chain for a reason: We mess with stuff we probably shouldn't all the damn time!>


I don't really see where the discovery or advancement is in this. We already know these things about bettas, from true discovery/advancement of people that have studied them in the wild. So, we basically know what the inevitable outcome here is. And, I don't really appreciate your reasoning of "I enjoy it, and I'm human, so it's all good."

Having said that, I keep large snakes in small (relative to their habitat) boxes. So, I'm not really here to judge. And a tank full of male bettas would be admittedly amazing looking...unless they all have torn fins. So, do the best you can by the fish, and I wish you luck!


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

ShukiAi said:


> Unfortunately, at the time I had a sorority I was newer in the hobby and didn't know as much as I do now. I also had no plans to breed them. I came home from work one evening and found a massacre in my tank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm so happy that you can move on from this.:wink2:

Bump:


jag51186 said:


> I don't really see where the discovery or advancement is in this. We already know these things about bettas, from true discovery/advancement of people that have studied them in the wild. So, we basically know what the inevitable outcome here is. And, I don't really appreciate your reasoning of "I enjoy it, and I'm human, so it's all good."
> 
> Having said that, I keep large snakes in small (relative to their habitat) boxes. So, I'm not really here to judge. And a tank full of male bettas would be admittedly amazing looking...unless they all have torn fins. So, do the best you can by the fish, and I wish you luck!


Well, I certainly don't do all this work because I have to, or it is my job. I am happy. You should move on.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Look up half life of knowledge...

The amount of time before half the information on a topic is replaced by new, or shown to be false.

People, pushing the boundaries is a hallmark of our species, as is self justifiable cruelty (not saying this is cruel).


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

jaliberti said:


> This sounds boring. Why not throw in a female betta? :surprise: Nothing wrong with a little ballroom blitz every now & then to liven things up a bit, eh?


I'll do that after I cook them up and eat them.:x


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*January 20, 2016 Morning*

I still have 8 bettas in this tank, but believe my tank is not replicating '28 Betta' woman's tank. I have created shelves with the coir, which make for great hidey holes and territory. Each male betta has found and claimed a spot or two or three....and keeps other bettas out by chasing. In '28 Betta' tank, they are not able to move without hitting another betta (so to speak). They are in a general community tank set up, with adornments that satisfy the human's idea of beauty. I have created more of a habitat, which may spur more aggression. I really hate to think of tearing it all out and making it look more like hers. In the interest of this test, I may have to change it all. I'm thinking on that for a while.

With all of the above in mind, here's what I've seen so far:
The tetras do a great job creating a nuisance. By the time two Bettas are facing off, here comes the tetra gang on their rounds to pinch the betta's fins. Even the corys create a diversion. The tetras are making divots in the betta's fins more than I would like. But I can see where the betta's are outsmarting the tetras by getting perfectly still as the gang passes over or under them. I have also seen the bettas turn to face the offenders (tetras) and make them back off! I'm considering putting the tetras back in their original tank. But for now, I'm just watching. The bettas are smarter than the tetras. 

Of the four I added to the tank two nights ago, the crowntail was banished, and one of the other solid blue halfmoon bettas may be as well. (Not truly solid color, sides fluoresce with blue/green.) I think the solid blues and solid reds are more aggressive generally speaking. This is why I believe '28 Betta' tank seems to be working out; she has predominantly pastels. So I will continue to watch. I will only buy pastels or mixed colors in the future. The more solid colors and crowntails have quickly proven one of my hypotheses. 

I needed more 'line of sight' breaks, so I added dried palm fronds under the floating mat. I'll get a video up later today. The bettas are coming out of their hidey holes more because of that change. I'm also going to put more coir in the tank in shelves or caves under the floating mat. 

There is no fighting yet, just short chasing. They do not 'engage', but sometimes square off and flare at each other before one or both turn away.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*January 20, 2016 Afternoon*

I thought about it, and I have taken out the rummy nose tetras and the coir floating shelf. I have watched as the tetras chased and ripped the Bettas' fins. So no more tetras. The bettas were hiding and claiming territory in the coir shelf, so I never saw them out except during feeding. (When the tetras also fed on their fins!) Now I am closer to what '28 Betta' has in her tank, except I have no Angelfish. It is just the corys and the bettas, and less confusion. I took pictures, because video takes time, and I need to get to my chores before the day is over. Didn't get a good picture of the two blue bettas. One looks fine (the one I may take out), and the other blue has some fin damage and is hiding. Not sure if it was the tetras or the bettas that did that to him. But, now that the tetras are out, I'll be able to know more.


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## Hooked on fish (Dec 15, 2015)

Awolf,

Just wanted to say I appreciate what you are doing here and I think you are taking most of the precautions needed.
People are going to be offended. The same people would be devastated if they knew what animals were put through for science.
Most of the time no precaution were taken for the animals safety.

As for the idea of "these fish shouldn't be together"... All I have to say is "Natural habitat, dry season"
Not that most of these fish have seen a natural habitat in generations.

Have you seen how they breed betta fish? 
The keep the juveniles in barrels, together, in the hundreds.

I have a feeling what you will discover is that they are a lot like cichlids.
I'll keep watching until you come to a conclusion.


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## roostertech (Oct 27, 2015)

Good work on the updates. Following


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## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

Following as well.Very Interesting thread.


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

Lol! When you posted on the healthy Betta tips thread that you were petting your Bettas, I assumed you were talking about a sorority. Silly me. Every body who keeps Bettas secretly wishes they can do this. I have arguments with my boyfriend on a weekly basis about why Finn, Enzo and Buster can't live in the same home. You may end up proving him right, however, I like Bettas with nice fins and tails. This isn't a good way to keep their fins intact.

I am glad you removed the tetras. If they are damaging the Bettas and not serving to deflect aggression from the other Bettas, then they need to go. 

The link to the 28 Bettas is gone. I wonder if it got pulled from YouTube? I watched both of your videos. The 5 Betta video had me worried that your alpha Bettas would kill the beta Bettas (no pun intended). The aggression. Seemed to be spread more evenly once you added the three new fish. Please keep an eye out for disease problems. One of your cellophane still looks scared, stressed and shredded. He may get sick.

Good luck. Can't help but follow....


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Varmint said:


> Lol! When you posted on the healthy Betta tips thread that you were petting your Bettas, I assumed you were talking about a sorority. Silly me.
> 
> Good luck. Can't help but follow....


I also have a sorority tank of 10 females and 2 gouramis. I have had this tank with 7 of the 10 females for almost four years. They are getting old. I pet them daily. Now that I have the males in a tank, I will be doing a lot of petting. :} Thanks!

Bump:


Hooked on fish said:


> Awolf,
> Have you seen how they breed betta fish?
> The keep the juveniles in barrels, together, in the hundreds.
> 
> ...


I didn't know that about male bettas. Good to know. Thanks for the support. 
I think bettas are very much like cichlids too. You are most likely correct. This tank might be 'edgy' like a cichlid tank. I have kept cichlid tanks and can see the many similarities.


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## Hooked on fish (Dec 15, 2015)

My Uncle raised Betta Splendens for 10 years or more.
He made a living doing this in Florida.
They moved the fry to 55 gallon barrels with duckweed and watersprite and a pond pump.
When they were old enough they seperated males and females. 
Females went back in the barrels and the males went into 55 gallon tanks.
They didn't separate them into individual units until a few weeks before selling them.
According to him Males don't become territorial until they reach breeding maturity.
Even then, some males will show very little aggression until a female is present.

His thought was that unless there was a bubble nest or a female to worry about the Betta males weren't any more aggressive than the females.
However, add a female to the mix and they fight like it's their job!

Most pet store Bettas today are not bred for aggression, actually it's more the opposite.

He had a tank in his house that was oddly shaped so I'm not sure the size.
I'll guess it was in the neighborhood of 75 or 80 gallons and he had 6 males with a few dozen shrimp and 8 or 10 cories for many years.
The video you linked was the first time I have ever seen that many together.

Good luck with it. 
I think it's possible if you can get the right group together.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*January 20, 2016 Evening, The Male Betta Test Has Ended*

*The Male Betta Test Has Ended
*
All of the fish have been moved to safe homes. 

About two hours after I removed the tetras* and coir shelf*, all hell broke loose. Bettas were locking lips, entangled in brutal to the death fighting. Pastels were the worst. They fought ferociously. As I was netting them, I actually had to lift one out of the water by it's tail so it would drop the fish it held tightly in it's mouth. I couldn't get them out of the tank fast enough. Fights were everywhere. 

Earlier, I heard the '28 Betta' woman has taken down her video. So, I'm left holding the gun....ha! 

I was really hoping her tank was stable, and this could be done. But my test has proven this will not work out, and fish WILL be killed. Whether the tetras in my case, or the angelfish in her case mitigated any aggression is yet to be known. I am suspicious that these fights began soon after I took the fin biting tetras out of the tank. But, there is no way to know for sure. 

Photobucket won't load my images tonight so here is imgur pics of the bettas in singular bowls:

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

Now, on to the next experiment! But first I'm going to have a nice Martini. With Four OLIVES!

*The Male Betta Test Has Ended*


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## roostertech (Oct 27, 2015)

Interesting finding, glad to see that it ended safely.


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## Hooked on fish (Dec 15, 2015)

I stand by my cichlid comparison....

I had a group of Meeki and dempsy together once with tetras and hatchet fish.
I took out the hatchets and the tetras and the buggers started fighting.
In my case is wasn't serious but it was interesting to watch the behavior change over night.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Hooked on fish said:


> I stand by my cichlid comparison....
> 
> I had a group of Meeki and dempsy together once with tetras and hatchet fish.
> I took out the hatchets and the tetras and the buggers started fighting.
> In my case is wasn't serious but it was interesting to watch the behavior change over night.


It's a delicate balance with cichlids and Bettas. Really fun fish to keep. So intelligent and smart...for fish. I did hope to have it work out. The angelfish in 28 Betta woman's tank probably helped keep peace, like the tetras. I can't help but draw an analogy with humans. All animals, really. If I'm worried about the gang down the street, I'm probably going to keep a low profile. Interesting stuff. Thanks for the support.

Bump:


roostertech said:


> Interesting finding, glad to see that it ended safely.


Thanks for watching.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Hooked on fish said:


> Females went back in the barrels and the males went into 55 gallon tanks.


Yea, I think that flooding the tank with so many bettas is actually safer than just eight. I hear it can work if you can get them all the exact same age, and flood the tank so full that you can't throw a cat through them. (Figure of speech, of course.) I gave up throwing cats through fish a long time ago.:wink2:


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## randym (Sep 20, 2015)

Thanks for doing this experiment and sharing the results.

And interesting that Phyllis has deleted all videos from her YouTube channel. I wonder if she read the comments here, tried removing the angelfish, and had all heck break loose in her tank, too.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

randym said:


> Thanks for doing this experiment and sharing the results.
> 
> And interesting that Phyllis has deleted all videos from her YouTube channel. I wonder if she read the comments here, tried removing the angelfish, and had all heck break loose in her tank, too.


Yes, I may have contributed to the attacks on her youtube video. Many people may have attacked her video and she didn't know how to disable comments? I hope her tank is still bringing her joy. But in the final analysis, this kind of tank is extremely tricky. Now that I know they do keep hundreds of male bettas together in tanks at breeding farms, I feel somewhat vindicated. But, for the average fish enthusiast, a smaller amount of bettas is definitely a tricky situation, and impractical. Thanks for watching.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*Experiment Revived*

I have revived an experiment I did about a month ago. A video appeared on YouTube showing 28 male bettas in a single 55 gallon tank, and I tried to replicate it with 8 male Bettas and 6 rummy nose tetras. It failed when I removed the tetras from the tank, and the Bettas starting fighting ferociously with each other. So I pulled the Bettas out, and decided it was not possible. End of experiment.


After much thought, I decided to try again, with the tetras back in the tank to see if it made any difference. I also added more cover in the tank with plants. So far it has worked! For about three weeks they have been cohabiting. This tank is like a cichlid tank, where fighting for territory is normal, and fins are bitten in warning. They cannot keep the long beautiful fins they have when in singular bowls or tanks, and divots are made in their fins by the tetras as well as each other, but they are coexisting well enough, and there has been no deaths, engaged fighting, or illness.
As with cichlid tanks, there may be a ferocious fight that kills one of them every now and then. I am hopeful this will not happen, but I remain sceptical. I keep a good watch, and will pull any fish that is in obvious danger of it’s life due to weakness. As long as they are strong and healthy, the chance that they will succumb to death from chasing and nipping appears to be minimal. Be warned if you try this without the proper environment and the right mix of Bettas, you could have a ‘tank of carnage’ on your hands. If two start fighting relentlessly, they must be separated. Chasing and nipping is not too bad.
This tank holds 7 male Bettas, 1 Flame Gourami, 6 Rummy Nose Tetras, 4 White Cloud Mountain Minnows, and 3 Corydoras. As with all of my tanks now, there is no filter. There are only plants to filter the water, and a UV light to ward off ich (_Ichthyophthirius multifiliis_) and other parasites.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-6r6ZbuVDM


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I hope it turn out better this time! I was really interested when you did it the first time.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

sohankpatel said:


> I hope it turn out better this time! I was really interested when you did it the first time.


Thanks! I am not ready to give up yet.


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## theatermusic87 (Jun 22, 2014)

I take it you're only hiding short fined Bettas then? Any links to color and aggressiveness?


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## Cynglen (Feb 12, 2016)

Wow, cool experiment. Sorry to see things didn't work out on round one, but hope round two ends with more success (which would also merit martinis, lol). I'll be following along for sure :nerd:


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

theatermusic87 said:


> I take it you're only hiding short fined Bettas then? Any links to color and aggressiveness?


Not sure I understand. They are all halfmoon bettas. I've never seen any studies on color aggressiveness. I've heard from other people that red bettas are super aggressive. I've also heard that veil tails are more aggressive as well. I don't know of any articles or sources to back those statements up. I do have a sorority tank as well, with 10 female bettas. Those are much shorter finned than the males. They behave very much like the male bettas; territorial, fin nipping, chasing, and short lived confrontation. I've kept that tank for many years now, 7 of those females are the originals. They are over 4 years old, and looking healthy.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*Additional Thoughts*

I would like to add that these are the same fish that fought so ferociously at the end of first test. Pairs that were entangled in fight now pass by each other with caution. It makes me wonder if the fight taught them a lesson. 'If I engage, I will die.' ...sort of a thing? So by pulling them apart, and giving it time to sink in, then placing them back together after a few days may restructure their behavior? Just a thought.


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## Shamus72 (Feb 9, 2016)

I've read and participated in the thread you're basing this experiment off of.... I definitely think her silence speaks to her success. I'm glad she also took down her video. I think this experiment is wrong and unfair to the bettas. I'm glad to hear you have an objective opinion on the potential failure or success and are prepared and ready to separate them. To me it's a matter of thriving vs surviving. Keeping multiple males together is going to put them under constant stress and ultimately lead to illness and death.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Shamus72 said:


> I've read and participated in the thread you're basing this experiment off of.....


I'd love to read that thread. Do you have a link to it? Was it in Planted Tank?


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## Shamus72 (Feb 9, 2016)

Took me a minute to find it. It's a long one, but very entertaining.

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1676726/male-and-female-betta-together


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Shamus72 said:


> Took me a minute to find it. It's a long one, but very entertaining.
> 
> Male and Female Betta Together?


Thanks! You can see the divots in the fins in the pictures 'Phyllis' provided in that forum. So her fish were taking swipes at each other, just as mine are. I've kept cichlids that do the same. The problem is betta fins are much longer and it is more noticeable when they are missing pieces. My cichlids would be missing fins from fighting as well, but most of them have short, semi translucent fins. So it is a little less noticeable when they are together in a tank. 

I spoke with Phyllis in January 2016 through her Youtube channel, and she still had the tank running with 28 bettas, and had started another 40 gallon tank with the same. I wish she would chime in on this forum and let us know how things are going. I can pretty much bet she loses a few to fighting or illness from stress, but those remaining in her tanks just take swipes at each other like cichlids.


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## Shamus72 (Feb 9, 2016)

Stress + torn and nipped fins leads to weakened immune systems and more times than not, fin rot, fungal infections or both. I just don't think keeping a bunch of male bettas together has the fishes best interest in mind. The fact that we're humans and have complete power over their fate doesn't warrant abuse of power. Maybe I'm to biased on the matter though. Bettas are my favorite fish, and every time I hear of people trying this I think of one of my bettas being put in that scenario and it makes me angry. I just hope more people don't try this because majority of bettas get mistreated enough. As I've said before, I'm glad you have an objective opinion, and are ready to intervene. Phyllis was under the illusion that all her males were just the best of friends and no one ever fought.


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I just read over that thread, and phyllis seems completely blinded by her tank. They sound extremely ignorant of how bettas truly behave,


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Shamus72 said:


> As I've said before, I'm glad you have an objective opinion, and are ready to intervene. Phyllis was under the illusion that all her males were just the best of friends and no one ever fought.


Thanks! Yes, she does seem 'out of touch' with the aggressive nature and obvious fin nippage going on in her tank. Like a cichlid tank, over crowding may be what keeps her bettas from killing each other and defending territories. I cringe when I see bettas fighting, or any fish fighting for that matter. I didn't like the results of the first test at all. I'm probably less worried about chasing and nipping, because of years experience with cichlids, and keeping a female betta sorority tank. The female bettas chase and nip, and have divots in their fins all the time, but after four years, they are still alive and strong. I become attached to my fish, and will not let them be bullied to death. I have taken female bettas out of the sorority tank that didn't fit in, and were bullied or too aggressive. I change things around for about a day, then put them back in and that seems to stop the nasty behavior. Bettas are very smart fish. I call them the dolphins of freshwater aquariums.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*The Ethics Behind Fish Keeping*

Originally Posted by *trahana*  
_I feel this experiment doesn't have enough space per Betta fish. The territories you say are being fought over are too small, in nature these fish would at least have two feet square width and probably about 12 inches high, to govern, if not more. They don't have enough space, causing to much fighting, and eventually the stress will cause them to die of some disease. If they don't die from battle wounds first. 

This could be successful, but must resemble nature, meaning a 100+ gallon tank that is 12" high, meaning very wide and long, and very well planted could host multiple male bettas. But, with so few hiding places, and not enough territory, the stress on each fish is to much. Fish aren't made to be always injured._
Agreed, but not possible for the average person. I would say the same for cichlids, tetras, etc. No tank is as big as the rivers, streams, lakes, rice paddies, etc., they come from originally. I have never owned a fish that won't pick on, and attack the fins of another, except maybe for bottom dwellers like corys. (I'd love to hear from someone who has seen a cory fight! :}) or goldfish and guppies. No tetras or cichlids, etc., have anything but 'non-stop aggression'. They roll up on another, and if it doesn't move quickly, it get's nipped. Not experienced with guppies. But I don't think they nip each other. Maybe they do? Anyone want to say? I prefer aggressive fish keeping. If we have fish in an aquarium, we are putting them at risk. So the real important question is, 'are we enjoying our hobby, and learning from it?' Because the truth is; no fish belongs in a tank of any size.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*March 5, 2016 Update*

I have added even more peace lilies to the 55g. Now the Bettas have more hiding places, and seem to be more more relaxed. They still chase each other occasionally, but are quickly hidden by the leaves. A chase is very short lived. This is actually causing them to come out more, and hang with each other with more tolerance. They don't swim side by side, and aren't 'buddies'. If one aggressive Betta rolls up close on another, the less aggressive moves quickly to cover behind leaves. That's the extent of it so far. All seven Bettas have shown they can tolerate the other until they are within about four inches of each other. Any closer and it is a short lived chase to the leaves. Sometimes they do slide within an inch of the other without issue, but not as often. The Dwarf Flame Gourami holds his own very well. The Bettas move out of his way the same way. He is dominant over them. The Tetras, Minnows and Corys don't care at all about the Bettas and Gourami, and eat side by side with them without fear. I have seen the Bettas turn on the Tetras and chase them away from their tails. As a result, the Tetras don't take nips at the Bettas' tails as much, if at all. It seems to have stopped completely. Which is good, because I could not tell who was doing most of the Bettas' tail nipping at the beginning of the test; the Tetras, or the Bettas? Now the divots in the Bettas fins should grow back out, unless it was the Bettas nipping all along. It was probably a bit of both. 

So with the addition of a 'forest' of lilies, I am seeing some changes in behavior.


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Shamus72 said:


> Took me a minute to find it. It's a long one, but very entertaining.
> 
> http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussions/1676726/male-and-female-betta-together


Hmm, the link is broken for me.
Was the thread taken down? Anyway you can find a working link for it?


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

WaterLife said:


> Hmm, the link is broken for me.
> Was the thread taken down? Anyway you can find a working link for it?


Appears to be taken down.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*March 10, 2016 Second Test Ended*

For six weeks, I have worked very hard to keep 7 bettas in a 55g tank together. I've added so much cover for them that I can't see them through all the leaves. I've come to a conclusion: It is not practical, it is not humane, and it is not worth it. Every time I watch the tank, I am tense. The fish are tense too. They cannot pass each other without flaring and chasing. Their fins are torn and shortened, and so are my nerves. A tank is supposed to be enjoyable and relaxing, in my opinion. This has been anything but that. For anyone who claims that this can be done with adult male bettas, I respectfully disagree. This test has proven that to me. I have first hand knowledge of the chaos and aggression this type of tank can wreak. If you are someone who has kept three or four male bettas together in a 55g, I'd say the fewer, the better, but it is still not going to be possible for most. You are the exception if your male bettas do not flare and nip each others fins apart. So bottom line..........NO MALE BETTAS TOGETHER has worked successfully for me. 

I need another bottle of Gin.

On to the next experiment!


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

So, you shut this one down because it was stressful? not because all hell broke loose like last time right?


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

sohankpatel said:


> So, you shut this one down because it was stressful? not because all hell broke loose like last time right?


That's correct.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

*March 11, 2016*

Out of curiosity, I'm going to see how long it takes for the Male Betta's fins to grow back out. I'll take weekly pictures of them, and post them on my blog. I'll follow the three with the most damaged fins over the next few months. Below is the link to today's pictures.
Male Betta Fin Watch (Regrowth) ? My Success with No Filters, Substrates or Air in My Tanks?& Other Experiments


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## Varmint (Apr 5, 2014)

Saw this on YouTube last night. He figured out the formula. 100 gallons and 100 guppies per Betta, lol!! 

https://youtu.be/eZvw_ShtJN0

I'm not entirely sure I believe the video since it is so short, but the thing people always bring up as we fantasize about the Betta fraternity is what if I put them in the largest tank ever? The guppy part was proven for me in AWolf's tank before she removed the tetras. You need lots of buddies to distract the Bettas.


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