# PTF members, we need your help.



## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi fellow PTF members,

We need you to sign the petition contained in this .... of the other forum. The deadline will be January 1 and the petition needs 10000 signatures to allow the Wisconsin government to revise the laws and have the fish be included on the laws of animal cruelty.

Of course, your help will be appreciated and we're glad you could help us. We are determined to stop such cruelty or whatever cruelty was done to the fish.

By the way, pictures of such cruelty are in this thread to serve as proof that whatever abuse was done is uncalled for..

Thank you everyone especially to the moderators and KyleT.
Link removed. Lupin


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

why change the law? just go after a major abuser by using negative PR, instead of funding lawyers and bureaucrats. a micro minority group effort to change law is often futile, and even if successful could have negative repercussions on our private liberty as well as the state's fish for human consumption industry, not to mention the sports fisherman industry or even garden pond owners. on these threads we often discuss pet store neglect of fish, but I would not want laws compelling them to do so, rather I would use the internet, local media attention, lawful picketing, and other legal forms of protest to persuade an entity to maintain their fish better, or drop them altogether from their displays. Perhaps these displays are neglected due to fiscal shortfalls, so a constructive action such as a fund raising campaign may be in order to help pay to improve maintenance conditions for these displays. attempting to make laws would only make the offender take funds away from their fish maintenance budget to pay for lawyers and spin doctors. making new laws only employs more lawyers and bureaucrats to enforces them, often with non productive consequences. for example in some states animal control officers have the power to confiscate and impound an entire farm of animals Months before the owner even has their day in court, making these officers power crazy and often corrupted into graft and bribery. In the meantime the animals are removed to temporary conditions often worse then the ones they were rescued from. there are thousends of documented cases where house pets were taken from owners by animal control officers only to be euthanized. in this case there is no "fish rescue" facility where the fish need to be held while the courts decide their fate, or this law would burden taxpayers to build one, but most likely the fish would simply be dumped in a lake or river where they will be eaten by other fish and birds, or potentially devastate the local ecosystem were these fish a foreign species. I would hate to see what abuse would result for changing the law to extend to fish. IMHO this entire lobby effort is ill conceived and people should consider NOT supporting such folly.


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## NorCal Filters (Apr 8, 2006)

*Petitions and spam*

I signed the petition to get Wal-Mart to stop selling live animals, now I get a request daily to sign one for the dolphins, sharks, tuna, wolves, elephants, wombats and so on. I am the first one on the wagon for a cause but I don't really like my email being handed off to all the other causes without my consent.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

If every store were forced to treat their livestock as well as some hobbysists think they should, you'd be paying five times what you are now for virtually everything related to the hobby or you won't be able to buy it at all.


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## conduct (Mar 25, 2005)

glass-gardens.com said:


> If every store were forced to treat their livestock as well as some hobbysists think they should, you'd be paying five times what you are now for virtually everything related to the hobby or you won't be able to buy it at all.


Now that is the truth... Most people don't see the health of fish when they come to a LFS sometimes they are ill and sometimes in great shape though. Most of the fish get ill due to stress after they are delivered. I worked at a LFS for 3 years and let me say people would go off the walls if they seen what I have seen come in from suppliers. It is not easy to just switch to a different supplier. Then if you do get stressed fish which stress out your current fish stock which makes them all prone to infections so here comes the 50% water change daily and large amounts of meds to try and fix the ich in the tank. It seems to be never ending.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

NorCal Filters said:


> I signed the petition to get Wal-Mart to stop selling live animals, now I get a request daily to sign one for the dolphins, sharks, tuna, wolves, elephants, wombats and so on.


NorCal; you should use GMail. I also signed that petition, but google's spam blocker does a great job restricting wombat related emails :icon_mrgr

glass; makes an excellent point. the moment you move from industry self regulation to government regulation is when an industry shrinks and the consumers suffer in the long run. consumers actually have MORE power to move an industry to self regulate, than coaxing the government to do it consistently. if it were not for the broad industry deregulation in the 70's and 80's the US economy would be in the toilet by now. true, some problems arise from deregulation (that's why basic cable here in NYC stinks and is $70/month) yet all in all it works out the best for most of us.


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

NorCal Filters said:


> I signed the petition to get Wal-Mart to stop selling live animals, now I get a request daily to sign one for the dolphins, sharks, tuna, wolves, elephants, wombats and so on. I am the first one on the wagon for a cause but I don't really like my email being handed off to all the other causes without my consent.


:eek5: Impressive.:eek5:

Hi fellows.
The owner of the petition was just trying everything to ensure the fish's will be given the rights not to be abused. What if they themselves are humans, surely the humans if they are fish won't like dirty water conditions at all. She has been fired from the pet shop she used to work for trying to to do everything to ensure the fish are given the best conditions they need, however, her employer simply look at fish with disregard and even think of them as 'disposable'. Not too good IMO. We have been treating dogs, cats and other mammals with lots of TLC so why not fish?:icon_mrgr Of course, you have the right to decide how to take care of the pets, but the cruelty is something which should not be tolerated.

Thanks everyone for your support in signing the petition.:icon_mrgr We appreciate what you did to ensure the trouts are given proper care and tank maintenance.


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

Hi all.

As the pics in the thread I have posted do not seem to immediately download except for the first one, here is the website containing other pics for your convinience. Dial-up users may have a problem with the pictures in the thread, but the website I just link you into will show you the pics faster.

Thanks everyone.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

I won't sign the petition but I do think the tank conditions are horrible. I don't think you need a new law or anything but there should be something done. Have you talked to the Owner there? Or the Manager? Have you asked Why the tanks are like that? Why there are dead fish floating in the water ....

That is discusting but If the law gets too involved in this hobby it will turn into how in England there is only 1 legal Cray and pleanty of banned fish, Yeah we have a few... not that many tho.

Just my two cents.

-Andrew


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## Lupin (Nov 21, 2006)

Fish Newb said:


> I won't sign the petition but I do think the tank conditions are horrible. I don't think you need a new law or anything but there should be something done. Have you talked to the Owner there? Or the Manager? Have you asked Why the tanks are like that? Why there are dead fish floating in the water ....


Well, if only you read this ....:biggrin: Then there are explanations inside it that you can see will answer your questions.
Well, I chuck out this one for you to read. It's the owner's explanation of what she did before she created the petition.


> I reported them... everywhere I could find to go. I started with the local police department, was sent to the chamber of commerce, and on to the health department. When I found no help anywhere, I then went to the Wisconsin Humane Society, and eventually to the Humane Society of the United States, who sent my directly to the Department of Agriculture. I finally ran out of places to go. I was told by the Dept of Agriculture that nobody could do anything about the problem, nobody could help the animals, because there is no law to protect them. I was told that they would all love to shut the place down, save what they could of the animals, and humanely put down those that were suffering and beyond help... but the law ties their hands, they have no power to do more than make a call to inquire, which they did. When called, the aquarium claimed that "a few" of the fish had injuries from fights amongst themselves, but all were fine other than that. When I got my call back, I was told that the fish probably weren't as bad off as I was thinking, and that nobody could do anything anyways, so I should let it go.


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## fish_lover0591 (Nov 11, 2006)

I Will Sign It. Done. Number 1061


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Bluebell said:


> Well, if only you read this thread.:biggrin: Then there are explanations inside it that you can see will answer your questions.
> Well, I chuck out this one for you to read. It's the owner's explanation of what she did before she created the petition.


I did read that thread, and I have a strong stomach and it made it feel uneasy. I had read that before I commented. 

That is bad... But Government shouldn't get involved in our hobby:icon_mad: period.

-Andrew


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

What I don't get is this, and I admit I am not at all familiar with the people involved or the establishment in question.

If you're that outraged, I believe it would be far more effective in achieving the immediate changes if you were to focus your efforts in the free market arena, draw attention to the problems locally with staged, lawful protests where you can educate the patrons of the establishment and empower them to make the correct choice.

You can then use that as a springboard for statewide changes, and perhaps then nationally.

Unfortunately, the squeakiest wheel in animal rights is PETA, which many people, including myself, consider to be a bunch of whacked out idiots and it tends to bias people when rational people speak out against serious problems like this. Suffice it to say I've been active in local politics with environmental issues and the like to know that even the ones who agree with you to your face will be the first to laugh at you behind your back when it comes to the government.

The trick is to become someone they complain about behind your back, that means you're accomplishing something.

The sad truth is, the hobby in general in all its various incarnations is politically insignificant, the numbers aren't there, and the dollars aren't being contributed. And in reality, political solutions aren't really solutions.

Iowa for instance, in its attempts to address a real problem with certain species kept by consumers, succumbed to the "ban the pit bull" crowd, and ultimately our largest city decided to add piranhas to the list of banned critters.

Let's be clear here, Iowa has this thing called winter, it's not good for tropical fish outside of a fish tank, and there has never been a single report of anyone being mauled by a piranha in a fish tank in Iowa, or a lake or stream.

This is what happens when good intentions are carried out by the government


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

I am against government interference and regulations whenever possible. i am also against giving power to beaurocrats. If you don't like the way fish are being treated at the LFS< don't patronize them. There is much more power in the hands of consumers and what they decide what to buy and not buy, and what to create demand for. Don't be afraid to voice your opinions to managers, and hobbyists doing the wrong thing, and don't be afraid postin bad situations if they are true. That is punishment enough. Why give lawyers and beaurocrats any more power than they already have. All that does is stifle growth and creativity. That is the downfall of the US worse than any other threat IMO.


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

NorCal Filters said:


> I signed the petition to get Wal-Mart to stop selling live animals, now I get a request daily to sign one for the dolphins, sharks, tuna, wolves, elephants, wombats and so on. I am the first one on the wagon for a cause but I don't really like my email being handed off to all the other causes without my consent.


I apoligise about that. I however did not give anyones emails from that petition to anyone. It's the petition site. however there is the option to not receive those mailings. I was also getting them and had to click the button to not include me in future mailings.


As to this petition. I went to that website and got pop up windows. that was the first thing that annoyed me. Second thing is this issue does not require new laws. This simply requires locals to picket and demand that either they clean up those tanks or stop visiting the place. 
If laws are required they will need to be VERY specific and ONLY pertain to the housing of fish for public display. or else it will leave very much open to negitivly impact our hobby. Open ended or vauge laws lead to a downfall for the hobby. If things are left to subjective speculation someone will abuse it.


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