# Eco complete root tabs and liquid fert?



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Jayce Callegari said:


> Hi so I’m starting a new 34 gallon tank with two bags of eco complete and want to know if I need to use all in one liquid fert and root tabs or just one or neither. I also would like to know if I should top if with sand or not? Thanks


Topping off with sand would be a waste as the sand is finer and heavier - eventually it will sink to the bottom.
Root tabs are a nice idea but my understanding is the ammonia portion of the root tab generally bleeds out into the water column when used with inert substrates. Soil based substrates, the ammonia binds with the substrate and stays available to the roots. MUCH more in depth reading in the link below. 
https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/f...t-or-water-dosing?_pos=2&_sid=4edc1ae1c&_ss=r


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Jayce Callegari said:


> Hi so I’m starting a new 34 gallon tank with two bags of eco complete and want to know if I need to use all in one liquid fert and root tabs or just one or neither. I also would like to know if I should top if with sand or not? Thanks


The trouble with root tabs is that you don't know when they are done. Maybe a root tab lasts for 3 months or maybe it lasts for only a few weeks before a necessary element is used up. Etc. It makes it hard to get much in the way of consistent dosing. 

I prefer liquid fertilizer. Eco-complete has relatively high CEC so it will absorb some amount of fertilizer left in the water but that's about all it has going for it. I would not bother topping with sand. You may grow to hate eco-complete (as I did) and decide to ditch it and go all sand down the line. But in the meantime I would just use it with a liquid fertilizer and call it a day.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

minorhero said:


> The trouble with root tabs is that you don't know when they are done. Maybe a root tab lasts for 3 months or maybe it lasts for only a few weeks before a necessary element is used up. Etc. It makes it hard to get much in the way of consistent dosing.


I tend to use root tabs at the beginning of planting in areas of heavy root feeders. I think it helps to at least establish a good root system. I don't keep up month after month though. Otherwise it's liquid ferts twice a week.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

minorhero said:


> The trouble with root tabs is that you don't know when they are done. Maybe a root tab lasts for 3 months or maybe it lasts for only a few weeks before a necessary element is used up. Etc. It makes it hard to get much in the way of consistent dosing.
> 
> I prefer liquid fertilizer. Eco-complete has relatively high CEC so it will absorb some amount of fertilizer left in the water but that's about all it has going for it. I would not bother topping with sand. You may grow to hate eco-complete (as I did) and decide to ditch it and go all sand down the line. But in the meantime I would just use it with a liquid fertilizer and call it a day.


I keep seeing postings about EC having a high CEC but can find where that got started. I've seen the test results for Flourite and it has a very low CEC. I would expect EC to be very similar to Flourite. (I think the only difference is some water and bacteria). I think the mulm that gets trapped in EC has a high CEC.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Kubla said:


> I keep seeing postings about EC having a high CEC but can find where that got started. I've seen the test results for Flourite and it has a very low CEC. I would expect EC to be very similar to Flourite. (I think the only difference is some water and bacteria). I think the mulm that gets trapped in EC has a high CEC.


Best I found doing a quick search: CEC of Substrates - Specifically Eco-Complete | Starting Out, Equipment & Setup

/shrug I kind of hate the stuff personally but it's probably better then sand for CEC. To me its worthless because it looks terrible and is annoying to plant into, but some folks love it so to each their own.


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## kfish (Nov 14, 2020)

Kubla said:


> I keep seeing postings about EC having a high CEC but can find where that got started. I've seen the test results for Flourite and it has a very low CEC. I would expect EC to be very similar to Flourite. (I think the only difference is some water and bacteria). I think the mulm that gets trapped in EC has a high CEC.


Beginning to sound like an urban legend. If you say something long enough, people start to accept it as truth. I've read that Eco Complete has a high CEC countless times, but nobody has every linked to a source for that information. They just state it as fact. The manufacturer has never tested it for CEC, so who has, and why won't they share it with us??


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

kfish said:


> Beginning to sound like an urban legend. If you say something long enough, people start to accept it as truth. I've read that Eco Complete has a high CEC countless times, but nobody has every linked to a source for that information. They just state it as fact. The manufacturer has never tested it for CEC, so who has, and why won't they share it with us??


It has low CEC, I'll do some digging and find a source that has tested it. and report back here.

Here it is:













aquazone said:


> This data. I performed all the testing for this article many moons ago. We had many of the same discussions on the Aquatic Plant Digest about minerals, Fe, CEC, and the like. The lab I was working in at the time afforded me the opportunity to do the testing. Dave published in his Aquatic Magazine. Many of the findings surprised us all, especially the low CEC of Flourite. We were amazed how well plants grew in it yet the CEC was so poor. We kind of decided maybe CEC didn't hold that much water when it came to aquatic nutrition. Sort of like sea oats growing in pure beach sand. Dr. Morin of Seachem even sent me enough Flourite, that to this day, I still have 5 gallon buckets of it I've never used.



Eco-Complete is very similar to Tropic isle LateriteI believe, which has a low CEC according to this research. 

For reference, aquasoil is in the 30 meq/100g range, Flourite was measured at 1.7meq/100g and Eco-Complete is estimates in the 5-ish meq/100g range.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Chiming in a few months late.



minorhero said:


> Eco-complete has relatively high CEC


It doesn't. Roughly the same as standard aquarium gravel or crushed lava rock.



Kubla said:


> I keep seeing postings about EC having a high CEC but can find where that got started.


This is something I tracked a a few years back because it was mind-blowing to watch - and because we had lots of newcomers discussing it. Got started via some social media show-offs affiliated with BucePlant (banned here for scamming our system, smuggling, forging customs paperwork.) They were hyping it as a "high CIC(sic)" alternative to crushed lava rock. Then it spread to a couple popular YouTubers. From there, it ended up being pushed by h4n (banned here for scamming, no longer in the hobby as far as I can tell) in a couple Facebook groups and Instagram pages. Newcomers showed up on the forum every couple days asking about conflicting information every few days during the height of it.



kfish said:


> Beginning to sound like an urban legend.


That's 100% what it is. But in this case it's a bit lazier and comes from people who know better who just couldn't bother to do any sort of reading. Even when confronted with data and real world experience from longtime hobbyists, they just sort of shrugged. 



kfish said:


> The manufacturer has never tested it for CEC, so who has, and why won't they share it with us??


They have. It absorbs next to nothing. CaribSea execs emailed back & forth with me about it about 10-12 years ago. Shared their emails here on the forum somewhere. They admit it's basaltic - effectively crushed lava rock. Edit: Here's a post about my initial exchange with CaribSea's sales manager for North America in late 2011 where they admit it's inert. I'll try to find my later discussions with them as I have time to dig through the back end of the forum. One of their execs was part of the exchange and even joined the forum to discuss their products.



Quagulator said:


> Eco-Complete is very similar to Tropic isle LateriteI believe


It's similar in that it has no real CEC. It's just crushed lava rock.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I was guilty of assuming Eco-Comp had high CEC - I was also guilty of sharing that assumption in discussions like this.

Of course through years more experience, listing to others here on TPT and looking deeper into advertising strategies I overcame that assumption along with many other common assumptions.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Quagulator said:


> I was guilty of assuming Eco-Comp had high CEC - I was also guilty of sharing that assumption in discussions like this.
> 
> Of course through years more experience, listing to others here on TPT and looking deeper into advertising strategies I overcame that assumption along with many other common assumptions.


And over the years you've done lots of testing of a lot of things, if I'm not mistaken, that has greatly helped others.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

somewhatshocked said:


> They have. It absorbs next to nothing. CaribSea execs emailed back & forth with me about it about 10-12 years ago. Shared their emails here on the forum somewhere. They admit it's basaltic - effectively crushed lava rock. Edit: Here's a post about my initial exchange with CaribSea's sales manager for North America in late 2011 where they admit it's inert.


You may know this already, but I just wanted to add that just because something is inert does not mean it has low CEC. Vermiculite and smectite clays have high CECs, and the majority of it is pH independent, unlike organic CEC or some other clays. 

Does anyone know what pH the test in the table above was conducted at? It can make a huge difference in the results. (The rule of thumb is pH-dependent CEC drops as conditions get more acidic, but the proportion of the CEC that is pH-dependent varies a lot depending on the material.)


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

ElleDee said:


> You may know this already, but I just wanted to add that just because something is inert does not mean it has low CEC.


Yep - it's one of the things they went into detail about (regarding several products) throughout their exchanges with me. I'm gonna dig out my old backup drives from storage sometime in the next few weeks and will try to find everything from back then. 

But the gist was it's (EC) crushed lava rock.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

@somewhatshocked In your opinion was the bigger problem that the people selling the stuff didn't know what they were talking about or were they being intentionally misleading? No wrong answers, I'm just curious.

Even though there's nothing in the current marketing that says anything relating to CEC, calling it "volcanic soil" with "iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements" for your plants is just insulting. I feel for people who buy it expecting something totally different than what it is.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

ElleDee said:


> was the bigger problem that the people selling the stuff didn't know what they were talking about or were they being intentionally misleading


Both, I think? If that's an option. I want to avoid being a complete jerk about it if I can. Even though I've spent the last 10-12 years telling people to use anything else available to them unless EC is cheaper or they're going for a specific look.

Really, the sales folks were honest about it what it is, what's in the bag and what it's capable of. After being pressed on it, that is. They didn't realize that I'd turn around and share the information on a forum where millions have since read it, though. But they were. Execs weren't well-versed at all and were mostly (somewhat?) shocked that anyone would be asking such nerdy questions.



ElleDee said:


> calling it "volcanic soil" with "iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements" for your plants is just insulting


That's an understatement.

The misleading packaging is half the problem. Newcomers and uninformed folks read it and think it's got to be wonderful. Reality, sadly, is they're paying for a bunch of water weight and a gallon or two of crushed lava rock. 

Have read hundreds/thousands of posts from new forum members over the past decade or so with nothing but beginner headaches. All because of EC. So I am admittedly jaded.

-----

To be clear... I really like the product for what it is when it's extremely discounted. It's nice, black substrate and once it's rinsed off? Not a bad product at all. Much nicer than most black aquarium gravel on the market. I've got a bunch in mesh bags that I use for building up slopes and holding hardscape items in place. Also looks great in large tanks. But I think I'd be less bothered by it if it weren't labeled as it is.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

somewhatshocked said:


> Both, I think? If that's an option. I want to avoid being a complete jerk about it if I can. Even though I've spent the last 10-12 years telling people to use anything else available to them unless EC is cheaper or they're going for a specific look.
> 
> Really, the sales folks were honest about it what it is, what's in the bag and what it's capable of. After being pressed on it, that is. They didn't realize that I'd turn around and share the information on a forum where millions have since read it, though. But they were. Execs weren't well-versed at all and were mostly (somewhat?) shocked that anyone would be asking such nerdy questions.


Interesting. Yes, both is definitely an option. 



somewhatshocked said:


> But I think I'd be less bothered by it if it weren't labeled as it is.


Absolutely. The marketing sets an unrealistic expectation and makes it difficult to make an informed choice and then you end up with tons of people starting out that end up investing in a substrate that is not the best fit for them.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

ElleDee said:


> @somewhatshocked In your opinion was the bigger problem that the people selling the stuff didn't know what they were talking about or were they being intentionally misleading? No wrong answers, I'm just curious.
> 
> Even though there's nothing in the current marketing that says anything relating to CEC, calling it "volcanic soil" with "iron, calcium, magnesium, potassium, sulfur plus over 25 other elements" for your plants is just insulting. I feel for people who buy it expecting something totally different than what it is.


That's the same way I look at it. Insulting. Also the same way I look at Flourish "Comprehensive plant supplement".


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

@Kubla Ha, I thought about Flourish when I wrote that. "Comprehensive", by which we mean only the elements that plants need the least of! But at least it says exactly what it is (as is required by law in the US) and the marketing copy says to use it with the rest of the line. The name is egregious.

The other company I thought of was ADA, which gives very few details about their substrate system and fertilizers, and instead just uses very vague but positive language. (I actually wonder if they aren't skirting some labeling laws themselves, but don't quote me on that.)


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I emailed Seachem about this. I asked why it was named Flourish Comprehensive when it's not. They replied that there is not a product named comprehensive, it's just called Flourish. That would make comprehensive part of the description. I think it's just as bad if not worse than the name.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Not to defend Seachem, but the whole Flourish Comp thing to me (predates or doesn't include) hi-tech tanks for the most part, it even probably predates the Internet. It was geared to an aquarium owner that would shop at a LFS and they had mostly fish with maybe a few plants and probably some Sponge Bob decor. The micro elements where obviously lacking from fish/food waste thus it would complete what a "fish tank with some plants" would need in lower lighting situations.


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