# ADA aqua soil



## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Go with garden soil and cap with sand, your plants will thank you for it and it's cheaper.

Check this video out


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

Wont this need to later be replaced after the dirt loses nutrients?


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Jack2714 said:


> Wont this need to later be replaced after the dirt loses nutrients?


Yeah but so does every substrate, I would imagine it has to do with the roots growing through soil rather than the little compact balls.


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

How long do you think dirt would last compared to aqua soil? What are the benefits of each, may be adding co2


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Jack2714 said:


> How long do you think dirt would last compared to aqua soil? What are the benefits of each, may be adding co2


I’ll be honest, I’m not an expert. I can’t scientifically explain why it’s better. Just a bunch of sources on YouTube and you hear “Walstad method” - Diana Walstad was a lady who like published multiple books on how to properly balance a planted aquarium tank and her #1 substrate was Miracle Grow Organic.

It’s a little messy to set up but once it is set up, it’s the same as every other tank.

Google “Diana Walstad” and then also research the Miracle Grow organic on YouTube.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Here's a link to my dirt tank I set up last night.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

The "Walstad Method" is a specific method for a very low tech tank. It's certainly a viable method for low tech but it's not the way most people want to go with a planted tank. The OP has also stated that he plans to add CO2.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Kubla said:


> The "Walstad Method" is a specific method for a very low tech tank. It's certainly a viable method for low tech but it's not the way most people want to go with a planted tank. The OP has also stated that he plans to add CO2.


Yes but the “Walstad method” doesn’t gatekeep you from turning the low-tech tank to high-tech.

“Viable” is also not the word I would use when multiple youtubers and people who make a living off of functioning planted aquariums are saying dirt is #1.

I understand not wanting to deal with the mess, but that doesn’t change the fact that it’s still the best option for a planted tank.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Best isn't a term I would use to describe any substrate when there are so many variables. Obviously, light and CO2 added to a Walstad tank will make it high tech but now you're changing a method that was specifically set up and tweaked over years for very low tech and minimal water changes.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with dirt, there's a lot of people that love it and it can be great for growing plants. As you know from your other thread there are also people that have done it that won't return to it. Not everyone shares your dislike for the appearance of aquasoil.
If you want to invoke the experts Takashi Amano used aqua soil.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Kubla said:


> Best isn't a term I would use to describe any substrate when there are so many variables. Obviously, light and CO2 added to a Walstad tank will make it high tech but now you're changing a method that was specifically set up and tweaked over years for very low tech and minimal water changes.
> I'm not saying there's anything wrong with dirt, there's a lot of people that love it and it can be great for growing plants. As you know from your other thread there are also people that have done it that won't return to it. Not everyone shares your dislike for the appearance of aquasoil.
> If you want to invoke the experts Takashi Amano used aqua soil.



That’s because Takashi Amano has stake in aqua soil lol of course he’s going to use it.


Fine, we won’t say “best” - we’ll say “most effective” for growing plants.


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## crushalot (Jan 11, 2021)

jern said:


> Fine, we won’t say “best” - we’ll say “most effective” for growing plants


You are over simplifying a complicated matter with many variable's. It's clear you are unwavering in your opinion on the matter but you need stop relying on just youtube videos and comments as you have no idea what the water parameters were in the non dirt videos. (Everyone has an agenda)

I agree that dirt more closely replicates a natural environment in the short term (must regularly replace) but most who keep planted tanks are looking for long term stability. They are able to achieve long term success even with inert substrates. The reason is proper and precise fert dosing and tank maintenance. Another contributing factor is that with inert subs, we can control exact amounts of macros/micros/trace/etc, where as there is some guessing when it comes to dosing with a dirt substrate because you don't know 100% what all it is releasing/leaching. 

I personally can't look at the awesome work of such great tanks with inert subs as these members: Greggz, Burr740, Immortal1, Ken Keating1, Maryland Guppy etc. and say to myself 'jeez these tanks would look soo much better if they used dirt'!

Just saying.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

crushalot said:


> You are over simplifying a complicated matter with many variable's. It's clear you are unwavering in your opinion on the matter but you need stop relying on just youtube videos and comments as you have no idea what the water parameters were in the non dirt videos. (Everyone has an agenda)
> 
> I agree that dirt more closely replicates a natural environment in the short term (must regularly replace) but most who keep planted tanks are looking for long term stability. They are able to achieve long term success even with inert substrates. The reason is proper and precise fert dosing and tank maintenance. Another contributing factor is that with inert subs, we can control exact amounts of macros/micros/trace/etc, where as there is some guessing when it comes to dosing with a dirt substrate because you don't know 100% what all it is releasing/leaching.
> 
> ...


Your opinion is your opinion for sure and I respect that.

Soil has to be redosed just as any substrate does. It's most effective any term. Root structure is why, I believe, soil is king. 

I'm getting the vibe that people want to deny evidence purely because they aren't using soil themselves, which is unfortunate. Tanks with inert subs will be successful, absolutely, but if you want to min/max your setup. Dirt is the way to go, the evidence and results are all there. Trust me, I wanted inert because it's much cleaner and can be replanted and changed in the future. But I'm looking to leave no stone unturned and min/max my setup.

You can argue "Yeah but there's so many variables at play" true, but if you aren't testing, measuring and verifying every single nutrient in the water column AND substrate (how would you even do this without a lab?) then the blanket decision is still soil.


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## crushalot (Jan 11, 2021)

My attempted point was that the little bit of extra "max" you can get by using dirt doesn't tip the scales for the average hobbyist who may not want to worry about messes, water chemistry issues, possible ammonia leaching, possible Cu levels unsafe for inverts, etc.

I'm not saying dirt is bad. I have used dirt in the past with ok results. I just don't want beginners that want to get started with a planted tank think they need to jump into using dirt right out of the gate. I feel keeping a dirt tank looking good is something best handled by a seasoned aquarist.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

crushalot said:


> My attempted point was that the little bit of extra "max" you can get by using dirt doesn't tip the scales for the average hobbyist who may not want to worry about messes, water chemistry issues, possible ammonia leaching, possible Cu levels unsafe for inverts, etc.
> 
> I'm not saying dirt is bad. I have used dirt in the past with ok results. I just don't want beginners that want to get started with a planted tank think they need to jump into using dirt right out of the gate. I feel keeping a dirt tank looking good is something best handled by a seasoned aquarist.


Again, you just admitted that you’re simply counter arguing because you don’t think the “max” is worth it.
Some people want to start with the best setup off the bat to learn everything. Like learning to drive a stick shift as your first car, sure automatic will be easier but once you drive stick you can drive anything.

Why not reply and tell him to just get a goldfish with neon pebbles? This is a planted tank forum and if someone is asking about soil, help them understand the pro’s and con’s - only con with Miracle Grow Organic is going to be the mess. Otherwise, it has been tested and proven that it is safe for inverts, grows plants like a mofo with little to no issues.


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## crushalot (Jan 11, 2021)

jern said:


> Like learning to drive a stick shift as your first car, sure automatic will be easier but once you drive stick you can drive anything.


This is not an accurate comparison. It would be more like the first car you drive is a F1 or NASCAR vehicle. Most car guys would love to drive the 'max' all the time but reality means they settle for sporty but not a 'max' car level and that's ok. 



jern said:


> Why not reply and tell him to just get a goldfish with neon pebbles? This is a planted tank forum and if someone is asking about soil, help them understand the pro’s and con’s - only con with Miracle Grow Organic is going to be the mess. Otherwise, it has been tested and proven that it is safe for inverts, grows plants like a mofo with little to no issues.


I would never advise that crazy stuff. Also you can use the search function on this very site and find examples of users having fish and invert die offs. So you can't just blanket say use dirt and you won't have any issues.

In any case I like seeing dedication to this hobby regardless of opinions. Also it seems we have highjacked OP thread so I will stop the back and forth.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

crushalot said:


> This is not an accurate comparison. It would be more like the first car you drive is a F1 or NASCAR vehicle. Most car guys would love to drive the 'max' all the time but reality means they settle for sporty but not a 'max' car level and that's ok.


THIS is not an accurate comparison. Using dirt is not complex, there are no extra steps required for maintenance. 

Very first post that popped up when I searched "inverts died" on this website was this. Someone using Eco-Complete, inverts die. It happens, there is literally zero evidence suggesting that soil will cause inverts to die more than any other substrate. If they are dying because of soil, its because they are not using the right soil and probably has additives in it. If you use a soil that is known and proven to be aquarium safe. It. is. the. most. effective. option.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

You know, as someone switching _from_ dirt to aquasoil soon, I would really appreciate responses to the OP's original question. 

@Jack2714, I haven't used aquasoil myself, but have looked into the differences between them and can't really get a great answer. Amazonia seems to have the best reputation, but is known for initial ammonia release. But people also seem happy with UNS Controsoil, Tropica's aquasoil, and Landen's aquasoil. It seems like most brands may have some variation in product from bag to bag, leading to some slightly irregular results with respect to nutrient amounts, buffering capacity, and how long until the balls start breaking down. Supply seems to be an issue right now with aquasoil, like we're seeing with many aspects of the hobby, but it's not an impossible challenge. I feel like Fluval Stratum has the worst reputation of the group (not to be confused with Flourite, which is inert) I wish I had personal experience to draw from, but that's my topline summary based on a lot of reading. 

I will say I'm not sure I've heard anyone say that they have tried dirt and aquasoil and went with dirt. I personally don't regret starting with dirt, but it's madness to act like it's the obvious choice if you want the "best" tank. It has pros and cons, and I'm not sure what advantage it has over aquasoil if you don't have an issue with the cost and appearance.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

ElleDee said:


> I personally don't regret starting with dirt, but it's madness to act like it's the obvious choice if you want the "best" tank. It has pros and cons, and I'm not sure what advantage it has over aquasoil if you don't have an issue with the cost and appearance.


Just regurgitating what numerous experts and youtubers say. Not sure why this forum is so against soil tanks lol. Seems like hard cases of denial. It's just funny at this point.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

There's such a wide variety of setups you can't simply say one is best, it just doesn't work that way. A Walstad type tank is completely different than a hi-tech ADA type setup. A Walstad tank relies on the organics in the system to support it, an ADA tank relies on lowering organics. It's no coincidence that most Walstad tanks need a large amount of easy, fast growing stems that will grow in lower light levels to keep the tank looking good. High organics and high light don't play nice together. Walstad tanks usually don't have high light demanding carpet plants or difficult to grow high-light plants. Just look at the Walstad playbook. 

Hi tech tanks with one of the aquasoils are less limiting since they rely on lowering the organics through heavy water changes. Because of this, it's easier to develop an aquascape since you can use less of the real estate with plants and more with hardscape because you don't need as much uptake from plants for the decomposing organics. 

Choosing a substrate is more about just growing plants, it's about being able to reasonably have the tank looking good. Some influencers might use soil, but I bet their commitment to the tank is greater than most. I actually don't see that many AGA or IAPLC contest winners using dirt, most use granular soil made for aquariums like aquasoil, landen, etc.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

jern said:


> Just regurgitating what numerous experts and youtubers say. Not sure why this forum is so against soil tanks lol. Seems like hard cases of denial. It's just funny at this point.


I am not _against_ dirt tanks by any stretch - I have two. I said dirted tanks have pros and cons, while you're the one making big generalizations about how dirt is the greatest. I own Walstad's book and learned a great deal from it, but it's not the only game in town. Let's not forget the OP asked specifically about aquasoil for a high tech tank.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> Some influencers might use soil, but I bet their commitment to the tank is greater than most.


Having used soil in the past, there is zero additional effort required with a soil tank vs an aquasoil tank.



Asteroid said:


> I actually don't see that many AGA or IAPLC contest winners using dirt, most use granular soil made for aquariums like aquasoil, landen, etc.


That's because these companies fund/sponsor/have stake in these competitions. It's a pretty obvious observation.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jern said:


> Having used soil in the past, there is zero additional effort required with a soil tank vs an aquasoil tank


Your missing my point. If you committed to a lower light tank and growing easy plants, yes I agree it doesn't have to be more work. But once you increase the bandwith and go to higher light and more difficult plants it becomes harder to deal with the organics without having unsightly algae, etc. That what I mean by influencers using dirt in more challenging setups.

The best way to be an advocate for dirt is to show what you have accomplished. Can you show us a tank you did with dirt.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> The best way to be an advocate for dirt is to show what you have accomplished. Can you show us a tank you did with dirt.


Last time I did one was about 4 years ago, wish I would've taken pictures or videos. But it is what it is, min/max'ing your system isn't for everyone.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jern said:


> Last time I did one was about 4 years ago, wish I would've taken pictures or videos. But it is what it is, min/max'ing your system isn't for everyone.


Yeah, Ok 

What plants did you grow, what light did you use?


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Asteroid said:


> Yeah, Ok
> 
> What plants did you grow, what light did you use?


no idea


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

jern said:


> Yeah but so does every substrate, I would imagine it has to do with the roots growing through soil rather than the little compact balls.


Inert substrates don't need replaced. Aquasoil could be changed a little at a time. Soil is going to be a complete teardown to replace. I don't think the root growth through soil vs "little balls" theory is accurate. You can get amazing results in hydroponic systems with hydroton. I grew elephant ears with leaves over 4 foot long. The medium was lava rock. Like 1"-2" lava rock.


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

Well this got exciting!

to start I will say I am not exactly a beginner and I know a lot about the chemistry and such behind a planted tank. My original question was about the 2 variations of Aquasoil as one was an improved version of the “master” Aquasoil designed by ADA... @jern you are correct on the possibilities of dirt going well for both a low and high tech plant. However @Kubla is correct on dirt not being the only option. I understand @jern may be partial to dirt, and I was interested in simply knowing what you would advise with that, and what the benefits are over aqua soil. I personally am not a huge fan of the looks of dirt capped with sand and so was looking for some biological info and what would maybe want to urge me to choose it. Instead @jern you treated the topic like a defense attorney and I do not believe that was the most helpful.

i like what @Asteroid has said, and you are correct saying I am going for a more high tech set up. Currently in my tank it is just fluorite with root tabs and I am running into the issue of very slow growth and hair algae(which I’m thinking is bc of lack of co2). I know that aqua soils are highly developed and proven to work well in this type of set up. What would be your recommendations heading forward?

@crushalot I understand your thoughts and agree with them too. It should not be oversimplified that dirt is the only thing that will work as there are tons of options. I appreciate you giving consideration to possible options and keeping your eyes open, as I am simply trying to make a decision between all of my options.

Anyway... back to my topic of substrate. Does anyone know the added benefits to the v2 over the v1? And combined with co2 should I see my issues resolve?


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

jern said:


> Just regurgitating what numerous experts and youtubers say. Not sure why this forum is so against soil tanks lol. Seems like hard cases of denial. It's just funny at this point.


Where did someone post they were against dirted tanks? I didn't see that. BTW, I have a dirted tank set up right now. It's just not the perfect substrate. (There is no perfect substrate!) Folks considering using it should know the pros and cons.
I have a hard time imagining Takashi Amano as a corporate shill. I think he came up with the best substrate he could for his nature aquariums and then formed a company to share it with the world.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Jack2714 said:


> Instead @jern you treated the topic like a defense attorney and I do not believe that was the most helpful.


Only provided defense because there was such an unnecessary offense. Overall, I provided links to videos and referenced professionals, everyone else just slashed my claims with zero evidence. Just shows that these people are defensive about their purchases, that is all.


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

@Kubla I agree with what you said! Also as a premium member with almost 2k posts I look up to that. What would be your recommendations for me?


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I recommend aquasoil as a no-brain almost always works strategy. I buy mine from aqua forest aquarium. Good luck!


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Kubla said:


> I have a hard time imagining Takashi Amano as a corporate shill. I think he came up with the best substrate he could for his nature aquariums and then formed a company to share it with the world.


I mean you can believe whatever you want lol money is money, if he wanted to share it with the world as you say. Then why is it stupid expensive?


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## *Ci* (Jun 16, 2016)

Jack2714 said:


> Anyway... back to my topic of substrate. Does anyone know the added benefits to the v2 over the v1? And combined with co2 should I see my issues resolve?


Here is an explanation: 
ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia Ver.2 Released


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I prefer to use the V1 and not deal with root tabs. Although I've seen good tanks with both. V2 I think is more available.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Jack2714 said:


> i like what @Asteroid has said, and you are correct saying I am going for a more high tech set up. Currently in my tank it is just fluorite with root tabs and I am running into the issue of very slow growth and hair algae(which I’m thinking is bc of lack of co2). I know that aqua soils are highly developed and proven to work well in this type of set up. What would be your recommendations heading forward?
> 
> Anyway... back to my topic of substrate. Does anyone know the added benefits to the v2 over the v1? And combined with co2 should I see my issues resolve?


Co2 is the one best thing you could add to your setup, hands down. Every submersed plant we grow is somewhat co2-deprived. You could have a beautiful healthy tank with an inert substrate or an active one, but I would highly recommend co2, otherwise things grow slower and it's much harder to use high-light without algae issues. Active granular soils like aquasoil will provide any deficiency in fert dosing to the water column for a time, but if your dosing ferts in the water an active soil is not a must.

Sometimes people using active soils, don't realize how carefully you have to handle it. If you disturb it, ammonia and other toxins will be released and may cause algae issues so sometimes using an inert substrate is easier. Part of the reason ADA released different versions of AS was for this very reason. Some of the newer versions contained less ammonia and was easier to work with.


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## jaz419 (Jan 21, 2018)

I looked into this in the past and noted it was hard to find.

If I remember correctly, the big difference between The original and version 2 was just that the original was more prone to making the water cloudy on set up, or when changing things around in the tank. 

Not sure why this is the case, maybe just more fragile? Maybe it used a finer soil particle that made up the little soil balls? 

Still a fantastic substrate. 

I use UNS and have great results with that too... it’s just a little cheaper than ADA though. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

Okay, I’m definitely planning on co2. I may just spend extra money on the v2 just to be safe. My light is a finnex planted+ I think it is medium lighting to go along with it and I plan to dose gla dry ferts. Hoping the setup will be much more successful than what I am currently running


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Aquasoil and other clay-based substrates act as a chemical buffer in the tank, whereas the sand that is used to cap a dirted tank is inert so Walstead/dirted tanks don't have that chemical stability. Also, Aquasoil is relatively nutrient-less (but Ver. 2 comes with root tabs), and relies on regular fertilization and large water changes to maintain consistent nutrient levels in the water column, whereas dirted largely relies on the soil directly providing nutrients via roots. For either case, I recommend using a nitrifying bacteria supplement with a base lava rock/potash layer (ADA Bacter 100 is like $20 and you can get a 10 lb bag of red lava rocks for like $5 at your local garden store). Essentially when you're choosing a substrate, you should take into account what you're putting into the tank. Some questions to consider:
What's your budget?
Do you care about keeping algae to a minimum or is some algae ok to keep it natural looking?
How many plants are you planning on keeping?
Do your plants prefer higher or lower pH? 
Are they capable of withstanding pH swings? 
Can they survive without CO2? 
Are they low or high light? 
Do they grow slow or fast? 
Are they nitrate or potassium hogs? 
Will your tank be full of inert hardscape? 
How many fish are you planning on keeping in it?
Are your fish big or small waste-producers?
If you want to run a high tech setup with all the bells and whistles, I recommend AS v2, Controsoil, or Tropica Soil. If you want to do mid-tech, look at Seachem substrates. For low-tech, dirted is by far the most cost-effective.


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## Plinkploop (Jan 24, 2021)

Let us know how you make out!! Glad you got a couple decent answers, so sorry your thread got hijacked, though it was an interesting read.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Jack2714 said:


> Okay, I’m definitely planning on co2. I may just spend extra money on the v2 just to be safe. My light is a finnex planted+ I think it is medium lighting to go along with it and I plan to dose gla dry ferts. Hoping the setup will be much more successful than what I am currently running


Sounds good, Don't get too caught up in all the finer points, it can make one crazy. You want co2, ferts and the correct lighting. Yes the finnex planted+ is more than likely medium light. From there especially with an aquasoil which will correct for most things, it's just a matter of good maintenance, light management and your co2 running correctly. There are a thousand different ways to a good tank, but using co2 will definitely give you a greener thump whether the plants your choose require it or not.


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

Very helpful @Bserve 

as of now I have had my tank running for about 2 months now so I’ve got the care and everything for fish and plants. I simply wanted to upgrade substrate and add co2 bc I wasn’t quite seeing the results I wanted. I’m hoping that the new substrate and co2 will go well with my rescape to get me some nice results!(faster growth and less algae)


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jern said:


> Just regurgitating what numerous experts and youtubers say. Not sure why this forum is so against soil tanks lol. Seems like hard cases of denial. It's just funny at this point.


The problem is that you are regurgitating what you have heard others say. It would make more impact if you could post pics of your dirted planted tank and folks could decide how much weight to give your arguments. But I am guessing that is not going to happen.

And to make it worse you are quoting youtubers, who in my opinion generally know little about growing plants, particularly in high light high tech set ups. 

While I find the Walstad method interesting, I have yet to see a tank many here would want to emulate.

On the other hand, I could point you to dozens and dozens of the very best planted tanks in the world that use Aquasoil or a similar active substrate. They aren't hard to find, and they can be striking with their beauty.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jack2714 said:


> Very helpful @Bserve
> 
> as of now I have had my tank running for about 2 months now so I’ve got the care and everything for fish and plants. I simply wanted to upgrade substrate and add co2 bc I wasn’t quite seeing the results I wanted. I’m hoping that the new substrate and co2 will go well with my rescape to get me some nice results!(faster growth and less algae)


Adding CO2 and active soil will be a game changer for you.

In addition to the ADA products, quite a few here are using Landen Aquasoil. Honestly I think it's splitting hairs as they all work in pretty much the same way. 

But expect a few bumps along the way. I swapped from inert to Landen last year and it did take time for me to dial things back in. Keep up with the water changes at the start. Plants like a little ammonia, but too much can be rough on them. Also study up on how folks dose new soil. Some will depend on your particular mix of plants. 

Once you get going, consider starting a journal here. Many like to follow along with a new tank or a reboot, as it's a great learning experience for all. It also gives folks a chance to know your tank better, and then they can offer better advice. 

Good luck and I look forward to learning more about your tank sometime.


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

Sounds great! I think I’ll try that. I plan to purchase things within the next week or so. Also for the aqua soil I may pre soak to avoid some of the large ammonia spikes


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Bserve said:


> Aquasoil and other clay-based substrates act as a chemical buffer in the tank, whereas the sand that is used to cap a dirted tank is inert so Walstead/dirted tanks don't have that chemical stability.


What do you mean by "chemical buffer" and "chemical stability"?


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

They have high content of peat moss and other materials that tend to slightly lower the ph by removing kh and making the water more soft and optimal for plant growth


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Whew ...active substrate battles! I like inert.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Jack2714 said:


> They have high content of peat moss and other materials that tend to slightly lower the ph by removing kh and making the water more soft and optimal for plant growth


I wasn't clear that that's what @Bserve was referring to because pH/Kh buffering is from the organic acids in aquasoils rather than having anything to do with clay and the organic components are the least stable, for either aquasoils or regular dirted tanks. I would expect uncapped potting mix (which is nearly entirely peat moss and other organic content) would provide comparable to superior buffering to aquasoil, but obviously it would be a bad idea for other reasons.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Jack2714 said:


> @Kubla I agree with what you said! Also as a premium member with almost 2k posts I look up to that. What would be your recommendations for me?


The best advice I can give you is do all the research you can before you make changes but don't take any of the info as gospel. It seem's like you still get about 1/2 the people out there talking about Ecocomplete and flourite like they're aquasoil. I'm not an expert on aquasoil by any stretch and I'm not a great grower of plants. I've had one aquasoil tank and that setup would hardly qualify and it was short lived. I have a one Miracle Gro soil tank right now. My 125g is BDBS. I do no that different people have different goals and maintenance practices. There is no "best" setup for everyone. I don't think you were getting any bad info, it was just very one sided.
What I have learned in my time here is that plants can be grown successfully in any normal substrate, or no substrate at all, with some decent light and fertilizer. Maybe you won't get full throttle maximum growth, but how many times a week do you want to trim? I lust over Greggz's tank and it looked spectacular when he had BDBS as a substrate. If there are dirted tanks that look as good as his they are few and far between and I'd love to see some pictures.

I'll put up some of our Planted Tank Forum experts up against the Youtube experts anyday. Some of the advice you're getting here is from real masters, though most won't admit.

Sorry about my part in the thread hijack. For what it's worth, I've got several other replies that I would love to type out, but I'll just keep them to myself.

Keep us posted how you do!


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## Jack2714 (Jan 14, 2021)

You guys are great! I’ll hammer down the research over the next week or two and hopefully get started on the transformation ASAP


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

I know some users will give me flak but if you can afford it, I like the results I got from spending more on the Power Sand special S for the bottom 2cm of the tank and then capping it with 3-6cm of the original aquasoil amazonia. My current main tanke doesn't have power sand because I didn't want to spend it but my cube nano does and the root health was improved in comparison.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

ElleDee said:


> What do you mean by "chemical buffer" and "chemical stability"?





Jack2714 said:


> They have high content of peat moss and other materials that tend to slightly lower the ph by removing kh and making the water more soft and optimal for plant growth


High tech (aqua soils) tanks rely primarily upon large water changes and external dosing to keep chemical levels (NH3, NO3, PO4, Fe3+, etc.) consistent, as well as the soil being a weak acid and chemically active (due to it being clay-based), acting as a chemical buffer. Whereas in dirted tanks, the capping layer is inert SiO2 (or similarly structured mineral), which acts as a barrier between the water, which contains the nutrients in high-tech tanks, and the dirt (peat moss, miracle-gro, whatever your preferred choice is). Nutrients that are in high concentration diffuse slowly over time through small gaps in the capping layer (like if there is a small uncapped region adjacent to a planting site), providing nutrients over time to the water, but do so in an inconsistent manner.
The big difference is that in high tech, there is a variable amount of nutrients in the soil itself (because it depletes over a fairly short timespan), but a consistent amount in the water column (this leads to worse plant growth over time but less chance of algal blooms), whereas in low tech/dirted, there are consistent amounts of nutrients in the soil, but unpredictable/variable amounts in the water column (this leads to faster plant growth, particularly with vals, stem plants, etc., but increases the opportunity for algae to bloom). Of course, constant water changes and checking water chemistry can solve these problems, but who wants to be doing that 2-3 times per week for longer than just the cycling period. 
The bacteria and high-porosity stones beneath the soil layer creates an anoxic zone where ammonia is turned into nitrates, which is then taken up by plant roots (plenums exist in nature too, especially in tropical rainforests)! This makes the ammonia leaching of soil less harmful to plants.
The keys to any successful tank are stable nutrient levels in the water column (including CO2) and lots of beneficial bacteria in the soil and filter. In the end, it doesn't matter what soil you choose to do so, it just all depends on how you plan on maintaining your tank in accordance with whichever you choose.
I've had tanks with AS v1, AS v2, just sand, dirted, etc. and I like AS v2 because of my current setup; for other setups, another soil type could be a better choice. It really all depends on what's gonna be in the tank and what you're gonna do with it. As Kubla said, there's no one size fits all.
I hope this helps!


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Very interesting read, albeit there was a lot of unneeded crud to get through. 

Easy to maintain, simple, lasts a lifetime, very affordable and very effective - Go inert. 

Moderately easy to maintain, fairly straight forward, super effective but not so affordable - Go active, but make sure you understand how it affects water chemistry and plan for that. 

Messy, tough to maintain long term, very effective and very affordable - Go dirt, but make sure you understand the variables at play and think long term. Also think of the limitations you might run into using a capped dirt substrate. 



Greggz said:


> And to make it worse you are quoting youtubers, who in my opinion generally know little about growing plants, particularly in high light high tech set ups.



DING DING DING, we have a winner. I cringe at the advice these Youtubers give out to millions of subscribers about planted tanks. It's completely outdated advice that has little relevance to todays options on how to run a planted tank, let alone how to run a very high tech, high energy tank. Most of them are sponsored by a company or two by now, or they own a business and promote only what they sell, it's a marketing tool rather than a teaching / learning tool. 

I've been unsubscribed from all of them for years now, I no longer get any of their video recommendations on my feed, and I've never been happier. 

Sure, some of them have nice tanks and offer fairly good advice, but it's all copy and past advice found on google, not experienced advice. Think CO2. They say "high light needs CO2". Okay yes, but how much CO2, how to you measure CO2, what size of CO2 equipment is needed to run a larger planted tank, how long should the CO2 be on for etc. etc. They just don't get into enough detail on very important factors of a successful planted tank.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Greggz said:


> The problem is that you are regurgitating what you have heard others say. It would make more impact if you could post pics of your dirted planted tank and folks could decide how much weight to give your arguments. But I am guessing that is not going to happen.
> 
> And to make it worse you are quoting youtubers, who in my opinion generally know little about growing plants, particularly in high light high tech set ups.
> 
> ...



It's fine, it's very clear these people just want to defend their purchases rather than hard evidence. When I had my tank, you're right, I didn't document it or get in with any forum hype. My community was the LFS owner and employees - I never really posted on forums or made videos.

As I've said, three times now?, of course people will use Aquasoil for competitions and notoriety - the companies that make the Aquasoil literally seed said competitions and media hype. Not to mention Aquasoil can be scaped 1,000x easier. Keyword is easier. Not more effective.

In my mind an Aquascape is a more specific kind of planted tank. If you want to create hills, depth perception and multi levels of substrate....yes Aquasoil is better. If you want raw plant growing power and quality, every single piece of evidence points to soil.

You can either think objectively or not.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jern said:


> In my mind an Aquascape is a more specific kind of planted tank. If you want to create hills, depth perception and multi levels of substrate....yes Aquasoil is better. If you want raw plant growing power and quality, every single piece of evidence points to soil.


Creating hills, depth perception and multi levels of substrate has nothing at all to do with why people use an active substrate. And where exactly is "every single piece of evidence" that shows dirt has the best raw plant growing power?

And I'm serious, if it exists, please point it out so that we can all learn from it. I am really very curious as to where you are getting this information. It's clearly not from practical experience.

I am in contact with many of the best plant growers from around the world on a regular basis. And I don't mean youtubers. I mean people who are well known and respected in the hobby. I am sure all of these folks would be interested too, as not one of them uses dirt to grow the most beautiful plants you have ever seen.

Here's the bottom line. The choice of substrate has little to do with the success of a planted tank. With any substrate, you still need to dial in CO2, fertilization, light, and maintenance. And all of those need to be optimized to your particular mix and mass of plants. 

You can have a great tank with inert, active, soil, etc. In each case you need to understand what you are dealing with, but the basics of keeping a great planted tank doesn't change.

For example, here is my tank with completely inert Black Diamond Blasting Sand (BDBS).










And here it is with Landen Aquasoil.










If you are trying to tell people that dirt grows plants better than inert or active substrates, please provide some evidence. If you can't, you might want to reconsider your position.

I see you are new here. You've probably read a lot and watched a lot of videos but my guess is you have little practical experience. There are many folks here who represent the best in the hobby. They don't just talk the talk, but they walk the walk. That is they can back up what they say and demonstrate success. If you want to improve, you might want to listen more as there is much collective knowledge available to you here.


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## jern (Feb 7, 2021)

Greggz said:


> Creating hills, depth perception and multi levels of substrate has nothing at all to do with why people use an active substrate. And where exactly is "every single piece of evidence" that shows dirt has the best raw plant growing power?
> 
> And I'm serious, if it exists, please point it out so that we can all learn from it. I am really very curious as to where you are getting this information. It's clearly not from practical experience.
> 
> ...


Congrats, you have a high post count. 

*MODERATORS REMOVED THE REST OF THIS POST*


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

jern said:


> Congrats, you have a high post count.


You asked @Greggz to provide data, he literally just provided 2 photos of tanks using non-dirt as a substrate in either one, and plants "grown to their max". 

I'm not exactly sure what specific data you are after. 

People on this forum have plants grown to their max using:

Aquasoils or similar off-brands. 
Inert substrates including Flourite, Eco-Complete, sand and gravel. 
Dirted tanks. 
Bare-bottom tanks. 
Various mix's of each substrate. 

It's no different than members on here dosing lean fertilizers vs dosing rich fertilizers, or 24/7 CO2 vs 8 hours / day of CO2. Each method has a way of achieving max plant growth and heath. There is no one size fits all, two tanks with the exact same setup's often provide different challenges. 


I have nothing against dirted tanks, I had one and I most certainly will have another one. But what I don't see is a bunch of tanks using a dirt substrate showing off maximum plant health, growth and colour with long-term consistency on forums like this, other forums, social media or YouTube.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

We've been down this road a lot. Someone joins the forum and starts drama for the sake of being a troll. But no one gets to treat others with disrespect. It costs us nothing to be polite.

You'll note that some members participating in this thread are no longer able to reply. We likely won't be cleaning this thread up again but we will be implementing suspensions for those who can't treat others with respect.

Please keep it polite? This is a plant forum. It's not life or death.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Quagulator said:


> People on this forum have plants grown to their max using:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think this hits the nail on the head. There is no best or better in this hobby when it comes to growing plants well. Most of us long-termers have used everything you can imagine to grow plants in containers of water. We all develop our preferences as a result. Or, honestly, most of us end up with multiple tank syndrome and have nine or ten different substrates in use at any given moment.

Several others have already answered the OP's original questions but here are my two cents from the perspective of someone who focuses more on sensitive shrimp than they do plants. Just in case someone reading this thread has questions about it running through their head.

Version 1 has a huge, long-lasting ammonia load up front. That's great for me because I don't like adding ammonia to some of my tanks to initially 'cycle' them on account of... laziness. (Maybe it's exhaustion? I feel ancient in this pandemic era. But it's probably laziness.) It takes a long time to get tanks ready for inhabitants and that's great for me as a shrimper - I like tanks to run 2-3 months before shrimp move in. It buffers water for a long period of time to help keep parameters where I like them for my critters. It's also got enough nutrients to handle the kind of plants I keep in a shrimp tank going for several years. I mostly keep small Crypts and low or slow-growing plants that don't require much maintenance. So it's always been great for me.

Version 2 has a smaller initial ammonia load, doesn't buffer my water parameters for as long and doesn't provide nutrients for as long as Version 1 in my experience. Which is why it includes supplements, I guess. But it's still good and I use it here and there. While it doesn't seem to last as long as Version 1, it's still a really long time. Years, not months. I like to use it when I don't have time to take a million years to get a tank ready for fish or other critters that aren't super-sensitive shrimp. It's been especially great in planted bowls and vases and in setups where I use tap water instead of RO/DI and need to suck some crap out of the water.

The TL;DR: there: Some of us use it for purposes other than growing gorgeous tanks. 

I think Tropica compares best to ADA products. There are a couple other decent brands but I don't bother with them unless I can't get my hands on ADA or Tropica.

Fluval Stratum is something I think should only be used for its appearance. I use it because I have a bunch of it from years gone by. Wouldn't pay for it now because there are so many other options available at the same price point. It contains little in terms of nutrients but I think it looks nice.

Something else to be considered: Budget should never hinder one using what they _want_ to use in their tank unless waiting isn't an option. Can't afford to buy the substrate you love right now? Save up and hold out, continue planning, try to find patience. I've had to save up and wait a lot throughout my time in this hobby and it's always been worth it and has made me appreciate it in ways I didn't expect. Doesn't make me appreciate it more than when I have lots of money. But in different ways - forcing me to put more time into planning and editing.


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