# Too much information on what too use



## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

I'm fixin' to change the substrate in my 75g. It used to be a cichlid tank and when I changed to planted (about 4 yrs ago) I only added a couple of bags of flourite. Plant just aren't doing well anymore. I think they are lacking nutrients. I'll also be changing the lighting. Anyway.....I've read so many threads about what's best to use as substrate for a healthy planted tank...I'm confused. I want something that will last years, be good for my plants and not cause me a lot of problems. Help please!


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

:smile:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/86457-55-gallon-low-tech-soil-sub.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...bum/131940-stainless-2-story-56k-warning.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/148380-haha-more-tanks-4-dirt-tanks.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/144812-fraternity-dirt.html

I call it dirt :hihi:


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Could there not be an easier answer? Most info in these links had so much other info its hard to get a good idea....or names other than "dirt".


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

so just add ferts!! simple enough right? now if your looking to change the substrate for other reasons then that needs to be stated but if its because you dont add ferts then you already know ur issue so a better explenation of what you want is in order it seems.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Thanks - I've jumped on another thread about dirts too - which is my bottom line question. What's the best (easiest to maintain) substrate for a healthy lowtech planted tank?


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

There is no one "best" substrate. There are several good options depending on your priorities and specific needs. They all have their pros and cons. Easy to maintain would pretty much cut out anything soil-based or requiring any mixing, layering, etc. Look into Eco Complete. The reviews are mostly positive, it's easy to work with and long-lasting.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Much appreciated!


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

It all will be some work. You can work on the front end (dirt) and pretty much leave it alone. Or you can pour & plant with sone tech stiff from a big company but, then you'll be pumping pills in the substrate.

It's up to you.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

I'll take root tabs over a dirt-cloudy mess any day. That trial and error has to be the most frustrating thing ever. lol


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## nilocg (Jul 12, 2010)

ucantimagine said:


> I'll take root tabs over a *dirt-cloudy mess any day*. That trial and error has to be the most frustrating thing ever. lol


I recently did my first reorganization of my crypts in my MTS tank and was dreading it. I was amazed at how little dirt got stirred up, essentially zero, at most just a quick puff of clay that settled down very quickly. I moved around 10-15 crypts, some of which had huge roots systems which seemed to spread half way across my 75g tank. This is an absolutely tremendous improvement over my MGOPS tank, every time I moved anything in that tank I had little pieces of wood and dirt all over the tank. Makes me happy I switched every time I think about it. 




SUNSTER said:


> Thanks - I've jumped on another thread about dirts too - which is my bottom line question. What's the best (easiest to maintain) substrate for a healthy lowtech planted tank?


Root tabs will clearly be the least work for you. Adding them to you tank will take a matter of minutes, and only need to be replaced once every few months. Its also one of the cheapest ways. I can ship you 150 root tabs for $12, http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...ote-capsules-new-permanent-pricing-cheap.html. It wont necessarily be the best way, but should grow most plants very well. Mineralized top soil or a dirt tank will likely be the best cheap method, but will take quite a bit of work and will involve pulling everything out of your tank and starting over.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

ucantimagine said:


> There is no one "best" substrate. There are several good options depending on your priorities and specific needs. They all have their pros and cons. Easy to maintain would pretty much cut out anything soil-based or requiring any mixing, layering, etc. Look into Eco Complete. The reviews are mostly positive, it's easy to work with and long-lasting.


Eco-Complete is inert material soaked in minerals along with an unspecified proprietary blend of whatever the liquid is they add packaging it. There is no 'long term' source of anything in Eco-Complete.
That's ad gab


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm speaking of the actual substrate material. Ferts were already recommended as were root tabs. It's not a bag of magic by any means. But it is easy and does help in planted tanks.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

SUNSTER said:


> Could there not be an easier answer? Most info in these links had so much other info its hard to get a good idea....or names other than "dirt".


If you review the threads I linked you'll find the tank setup on the first page or two detailing what was used and how much along with how I handle getting the stuff in the tanks. The rest of those threads are timeline and maintenance records with one nearly 3yrs running without additions. 

Dirt becomes a mess when the tank isn't setup correctly (imo) or rescapes are a weekly event.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

ucantimagine said:


> I'm speaking of the actual substrate material. Ferts were already recommended as were root tabs. It's not a bag of magic by any means. But it is easy and does help in planted tanks.


Root tabs are used in some tanks here and the results are dependable. 
So are the problems if not replaced every three months. API tablets are all NPK and no trace. Flourish Root Tabs are almost all trace and no NPK. Replacing either of these every three months isn't cheap and not a complete answer either. The capsuled ferts most used here on TPT leave the emptied spheres behind because the membrane doesn't dissolve. Then they work back out of the substrate and float around the tank. That event I find as aggravating as a BBA outbreak. The only substrate I've thrown into the yard and not reused was filled with those empty spheres. 

Enriched substrates and light water column dosing is the most forgiving method I have found playing the game be it injected or low light.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

This is the label for Flourish tabs. I'd love some input from our Mad Scientists. lol What's missing? I can't say the stuff doesn't work, but of course it's not 100% complete in all areas.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Anyone have an API box for comparison? Or the tabs?


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Wow....such a wealth of information. Thank you all so much.....


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

If your only concern is plant growth/nutrients and you are OK with the look of your current substrate than the easiest option would just to pick up dry ferts (cheap and create a lot of volume) and some root tabs from Rootmedic or maybe some Osmocote+ root tabs or something.

If you are dosing ferts into the water column (mixing dry ferts and then adding them regularly according to various methods and plans that are available on the net) then you can get by without ferts in the substrate (or with minimal additions of root tabs only around plants like sword plants or crypts).

This option would allow you to monitor the improvement of the plant health over a period of time while you research (or save up for) a potential complete substrate replacement.

Even with the greatest substrate ever you probably ought to do some water column dosing (and dosing the water column can help extend the life of the substrate nutrients anyways if the plants use the water column ferts first).


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Flourish quote; 
Each dose lasts 3 to 4 months. 
Use 1 tablet per 4 to 6 inch radius. 10 tablets per box. 

4 online vendors checked, costs are all >$7.00 per box so >0.70 per tablet is BELOW the average.
Standard 55g tank would be 96 tabs for total coverage @6" or $90.00 plus each reload. 270 to $360 per year. to follow recommended usage. 

Whats missing is any value to do this.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

I really think I need to change the substrate it's from my original Cichlid setup (same tank) and has a small amount of flourite under some pretty large gravel. I don't mind changing it all out but not sure what to use. Not sure I want to go the "dirt" route.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

I don't mind dosing and $'s not a big issue.


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

ucantimagine said:


> Anyone have an API box for comparison? Or the tabs?


API products same cost range.
Directions for use: Add 1 tablet for each 30 square inches of gravel surface. Push midway into gravel bed. 
(A standard 10 gallon aquarium requires 6 tablets.) Add new tablets monthly.

Total Nitrogen (N) 3.0%
2.13% water insoluble nitrogen
0.53% other water soluble nitrogen
0.34% urea nitrogen

Available Phosphate (P2O5) 1.0%

Soluble Potash (K2O) 1.0%

Iron (Fe) 5.0%
[5% Chelated Iron (Fe)]

(NPK)

Derived from Urea Formaldehyde, Mono Potassium Phosphate, Iron EDTA (Ferric ethylenediamine tetraacetate)

information isn't hard to find but the math adds up to an empty wallet


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

SUNSTER said:


> Not sure I want to go the "dirt" route.


Dirt is like the Marines...the few, the proud. :biggrin:


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

SUNSTER said:


> I don't mind dosing and $'s not a big issue.


Dose EI and don't bother with the substrate :icon_cool

Plants will do great


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Picture of tank


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

I only use tabs where there are plants. In a small tank like mine it doesn't matter much, but I still don't put tabs where there are no plants to use them. In a big tank, that would really be a waste. Of course they tell you to use a bunch, they want you to run out fast. 
Convenience always has a price tag, but I'm not really a DIY kinda girl. lol


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

None of my 22 currently flooded tanks have much in the way of open or bare substrate LOL. I've used all the common and some not so common root tabs including two cases I ordered from Japan. The common replacement not to have growth fall off was replacing them every 3 months.

flooded 4/30/2009 still growing plants.
No changes made, no daily or even weekly ferts ticktock ticktock. 
1" of dirt used when I flooded it. I can't complain. Less than $10.00 spent on feeding water weeds since 4/30/2009.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

If I go all the way and change it all out I want to do it right. It's been like this for several years. Currently not too many fish so I thought this would be a good time to start fresh. New plants and all.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Sunster what fish are you thinking of getting?


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Not really sure. Nothing major - I like schoolers....currently a dozen rummynose in there and some cardinals....a few leftover non-aggressive cichlids and a bristlenose. Sugggestions? I don't use CO2 and am changing out the lighting to get about 1.5 wpg. After all this reading I've decided against dirt. So....What substrate should I go with for my crypts and anubias?


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Idunno, was just wondering. lol I don't think anyone is going to tell you "Go buy XXXX" You'll have to make that decision for yourself. There are 2 basic categories - rich, organic soils that sustain without any additional substrate enrichment, or sands and gravels that will require enrichment through root tabs. I wouldn't mind getting some Aquasoil, but everytime I go to the site most of the stuff is sold out so I'm going with Eco Complete, personally.


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

Already bought eco-complete...will stick with it I guess


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Really?? lmaooo


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

ucantimagine said:


> This is the label for Flourish tabs. I'd love some input from our Mad Scientists.


1st thing I see is the Marcos are 0.28 - 0.17- 0.16. 

You'd gets more mileage out of Coffee Grounds, they contain about 4% nitrogen, 1% phosphorus, and 3% potassium. I know a guy that has 1-1-1 organic compost in caps right now.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...sion/157274-wanted-plant-product-testers.html 

Maybe he'll make some Coffee Ground caps up next?

"Mad Scientists."....yah, yah, they said that about Dr. Frankenstein too :hihi:


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## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

SUNSTER said:


> Already bought eco-complete...will stick with it I guess


makes a great capping material.
but if it tends to have a lot of BBA grow on it that's not my fault LOL

all the best OP, hope to see a thread on the redo tank soon.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

I took the MTS plunge! Figured I'd go outside the box with this little tank.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Clay gravel substrates like Flourite, Eco complete and so forth offer an endless supply of iron and other trace minerals. What it does not supply are macro nutrients, nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, calcium, sulfur. You can supply these by adding to the water or substrate.

Clay gravel is inert. It does not decay. The oxidized minerals last forever. Eco complete is also packed with live bacteria and water clarifiers. It does not cloud your water or have any dust like most other clay gravels.

Clay gravel is porous. It has high cation exchange capacity, meaning it attracts positive ions, (cations) and holds them for plants. It is a nutrient storage reservoir for plants. Flourite has a much lower CEC than Eco complete.

Soil on the other hand does not last forever. It is organic material that steadily decomposes and eventually becomes depleted, but depending on the soil and what you mix with it, it can offer ALL the nutrients plants need, both macro nutrients and trace minerals. Clay gravel= endless minerals, no macros
Soil= everything (maybe) for a limited time, (the length of time is hard to measure)

I have Turface substrates, (fullers earth clay gravel) thats over 15 years old and counting.


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## ucantimagine (Jan 8, 2012)

Very concise info Robert.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Thanks.

Here is some more terms:

Top soil, potting soil, garden soil- mostly contains organic material: compost, humus, manure with a low ratio of mineral material from decaying rocks

Sub soil, loam- soil with a higher ratio of decayed rock material and low ratio of organic material

Sand- most sand is made from crushed clamshell or coral. Not porous. 0 CEC. No minerals or macro nutrients. Very alkaline. There is also quartz sand

aquarium gravel, is usually epoxy coated. Not porous, 0 CEC 0 nutrients of any kind

You guys should check this out


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

SUNSTER said:


> Already bought eco-complete...will stick with it I guess


Eco-Complete looks good (better than most of the high CEC inert substrate options) and if you are dosing the water with ferts you can have really good success using Eco-Complete.

Definitely not a bad option (though having used it if I had it to do over again I would spend the extra money and get ADA AS or another type of nutrient rich substrate instead).


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## SUNSTER (Aug 21, 2007)

I only bought one bag of eco-complete, so will need more. Should I mix something with it like ADA?


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