# 13 Stones-Now Defunct, PT2 link up top



## steven p (Jun 22, 2012)

Congrats on post #2k. Also, i'd maybe just stick some vals and green wendtii in there, especially if the rocks are sitting in-between the two front to back. It'd save you some change on CO2, too.


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

This looks to me like the beginning of a good scape.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

steven p said:


> Congrats on post #2k. Also, i'd maybe just stick some vals and green wendtii in there, especially if the rocks are sitting in-between the two front to back. It'd save you some change on CO2, too.


Haha, I didn't even realize that was my 2000th post.

I forgot to put CO2 in my first post. I actually have 2 needle valves so I may go with both an inline diffuser and an in tank diffuser since I have both, as well as the ability to run both. Done it before and it works well.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I didn't plan on planting so quickly but I was out by Albany Aquarium, one of my favorite places to get plants. It's kind of far from me so I decided to stop by and get some HC. 

I didn't separate out the HC as much as I usually do but I also have never started with this much. I will probably separate it out more. I don't foresee a long dry start, just enough to get it rooted. I don't care if it fills in before I fill the tank, I just dry start HC to make life easy. Once it's rooted I will likely fill. 

Still have a lot to do in the meantime. I need to clean my pipes and glassware. Then I need to plumb my filter. I don't even have my CO2 stuff here but I may have to convince the GF to let me have a big 20lb tank outside of the stand because I have other financial priorities. 

Feel free to give me advice on anything. The hardscape isn't necessarily finalized and I have a bunch more rocks. I am still messing around with it, not really noticeably. 

However, here is a pic:


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## Overgrowth (Feb 19, 2012)

That looks really nice!


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## beedee (Jul 1, 2010)

I like that alot, great hardscape man! 

I'm also doing a dry start with hc and dhg, (link in my signature), it's been going for a month now, and i have nice growth, and deep roots. I'm JONZING to fill it though! lol


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

beedee said:


> I like that alot, great hardscape man!
> 
> I'm also doing a dry start with hc and dhg, (link in my signature), it's been going for a month now, and i have nice growth, and deep roots. I'm JONZING to fill it though! lol


It's ironic because I was looking at your journal right before I started my hardscape.

This is my personal opinion on filling it. Do it when you feel like it. HC grows more quickly submersed to begin with. I like to dry start to get it rooted as it's a pain to plant but I have yet to let a tank totally fill in. I actually like seeing it fill in underwater myself. 

I would up your CO2 at first and have a 5-6 hour photoperiod to avoid algae. It takes time for HC to transition to immersed so you almost want to treat a dry start tank as though it has no plants. Then extend the photoperiod and dial down the CO2.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Overgrowth said:


> That looks really nice!


Thanks. Hopefully it turns out well.


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## beedee (Jul 1, 2010)

talontsiawd said:


> It's ironic because I was looking at your journal right before I started my hardscape.
> 
> This is my personal opinion on filling it. Do it when you feel like it. HC grows more quickly submersed to begin with. I like to dry start to get it rooted as it's a pain to plant but I have yet to let a tank totally fill in. I actually like seeing it fill in underwater myself.
> 
> I would up your CO2 at first and have a 5-6 hour photoperiod to avoid algae. It takes time for HC to transition to immersed so you almost want to treat a dry start tank as though it has no plants. Then extend the photoperiod and dial down the CO2.


haha, that is a trip that you were checking my journal before you started, good stuff!

thank you for the pointers on the submersed state. like you mentioned, i really just wanted to get everything rooted, and then fill. my stand should be coming this monday or tuesday, same with my co2 needle valve, asa valve, etc....then it is fill time!

i noticed on my old 11.4g that after i filled it, the hc seemed to take off and thrive much more than it did when it was dry starting. right now my photo period is 12hrs, so i hope it doesn't trip out after i fill it, crank the co2, and reduce the light to a 5-6 hour photo period.

thanks again, and i will be watching this thread for updates!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Sunscribing to this one! It looks great so far! Your placement of the 13 stones is perfect IMHO. Will be fun to watch your tank progress.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

beedee said:


> i noticed on my old 11.4g that after i filled it, the hc seemed to take off and thrive much more than it did when it was dry starting. right now my photo period is 12hrs, so i hope it doesn't trip out after i fill it, crank the co2, and reduce the light to a 5-6 hour photo period.
> 
> thanks again, and i will be watching this thread for updates!


Many don't reduce the photoperiod so it's not something you have to do. I didn't even learn that from anyone else, my dry starts were hit or miss with algae issues so it's just something I decided to try, it worked a few times, kept doing it. Cranking the CO2 will be helpful regardless though.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I am seeing noticeable grow with the HC under my Coarlife T5NO. Nothing that would be noticeable in pictures, but I may decide to keep this fixture. I was really looking forward to having an open top tank with a raised light but my Aquaticlife T5HO fixture but if I can get HC to grow with this light, I know algae will stay at bay, likely getting not much ever. 

I guess my point of this is I am pretty surprised how well this light works on HC. I just stuck it on because I hadn't built a mounting system for the other light. I am not a firm believer that HC needs high light, I have successfully grown it in lower light, even in a non-co2 enriched tank. 

If this works, I will be very happy as I am not a huge fan of high light and can consider ditching the autodosing system which is bulky. Well, not so much the auto dosing but the constant dosing daily. I will have to see if this continues, especially after filling.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I got the filter in order. It was a bit challenging as I need to conserve as much space as possible. I don't have a crazy amount of inline stuff, just a UV sterilizer and an inline diffuser but I wanted it to take as little space up as possible. I have had some ugly plumbing in the past so I wanted to do this nicely. It also means I may fill it earlier than later, we will see. 

Before I fill I plan to change the outlet to a GFIC. Already have it, would have done it today if it wasn't raining like crazy. My 20lb CO2 tank won't fit under my stand so I am going to get a 10lb or 5lb on next refill since I exchange. Hopefully I still have room for my autodosing system and some shelves. I may just do a macro autodoser since micros are easy.

First "under the hood picks"


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This is more of a home owners thing but I STRONGLY recommend doing this. This is one of the most important things I am doing on this build. It only costs about $7, DIY, not sure how much professionally but its worth it.

I am sure many know but I am installing a GFIC (ground-fault circuit interrupter). I do this on all fish tanks, or anywhere there is water and electricity (bathroom/kitchen). 

What this does, if you don't have one or don't know is it basically cuts the power to the outlet if you were, to say, drop the light in the tank and it fried. Oversimplified but the circuit trips before something bad happens.

Picture of what it is:









Didn't do a picture of what was there but it was UGLY. Had to remove some drywall. Somebody basically used some taping mud or similar and filled the receptacle in. 

Ugliness on the floor...wish I did this before putting the tank in.










Done:









Sorry, I forgot to turn my phone sideways so it's different sizes.



Next, I am "downgrading" my 20lb tank to a 5lb. I wasn't sure if I wanted 5 or 10lb. Luckily, my local filling place only has 5lb, problem solved lol. Now that I installed the GFIC, I may fill as soon as tonight. Just got to hook the CO2 up first. I am using an inline diffuser but I also will use an in tank one at first. It's mostly for looks, I like glassware, but hopefully it's more flexible. I will see what I get done tonight.

Sorry for the kind of BS updates, I just want to be very clear on what I am doing for myself so when I look back on it, I know what I did and can compare.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Temp CO2 setup took like 3 min lol. I am just going to run full time as my tank is still really full and being replaced. Tubing is too long, will cut it to size when I go to 5lb. It could probably fit in the stand, especially if I took the bubble counter out but I hope to have some shelving in there.











Oh, and I think I am filling tonight. Hopefully the HC isn't a nightmare.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I thought my dry start was going to be worthless if I filled so soon. Surprisingly, much stayed down. We will see how much I have to replant. Not really a dry start, but it did work OK. Wanted to get the tank setup before we have holiday guests.

Now filled:


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

ooo exciting! Now we sit and wait...this tank is going to look fab when your done!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Amandas tank said:


> ooo exciting! Now we sit and wait...this tank is going to look fab when your done!


I should have waited to fill so hopefully I don't get much more HC pulling up. I tried to replant what came up but every time I would plant, more would come up. 

The reason I filled early was the fact we are having family and I thought it would make our house look more "finished". All of our guests wonder when I am getting frogs lol. 

I thank you for the interest in this tank. Unfortunately, I don't know if it will be interesting for awhile. I way try to get pics at different angles soon but the water is a bit "white" due to me trying something new. I am going to run my UV instead of daily water changes at the beginning as I don't want to pull up/loose any excess HC, be it in the substrate or floating.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

All in time  I hear ya about the plants coming up. I have been replanting everyday since getting my plants November 13th. I'm beginining to wonder if this will be our relationship for the life of my plants :icon_roll


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## switch26 (Jan 25, 2012)

I used a coralife T5NO fixture as well on my 30 gallon.. only difference was mine were 36'' fixture and i was given 39 watt bulbs with the fixture even though they can only put out 21 watts per light.

Anyway, i ended up doubling up with another fixture and it grew my HC very well. Made it pretty thick. As long as u are cranking the Co2, u shouldn't have any problems.. make sure u dose plenty of ferts too and u should be ok


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

GZ on the house, friend.

My personal challenge would be to not over-plant it.
If you want to try some blyxa in the left back corner, you know my Earthly location.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

switch26 said:


> I used a coralife T5NO fixture as well on my 30 gallon.. only difference was mine were 36'' fixture and i was given 39 watt bulbs with the fixture even though they can only put out 21 watts per light.
> 
> Anyway, i ended up doubling up with another fixture and it grew my HC very well. Made it pretty thick. As long as u are cranking the Co2, u shouldn't have any problems.. make sure u dose plenty of ferts too and u should be ok


I have another fixture if this isn't enough. This was just temporary but it was growing HC emersed so I figured I would give it a try. The HC is growing slowly, but I am hoping the trade off is less potential for algae. My other fixture has way more light that I would ever need.




OVT said:


> GZ on the house, friend.
> 
> My personal challenge would be to not over-plant it.
> If you want to try some blyxa in the left back corner, you know my Earthly location.


Yeah, it's hard to not want to go crazy with plants, especially when you have the resources of light, co2, nutrients, etc. I wanted something simple and understated as it is my first living room. Ironically, my GF wanted a lot of color so my next tank will like be Dutch. Next scape I should say, I am trying to limit myself to one "regular" tank and one "nano" tank, whatever sizes they end up being over the years. Having 5 tanks in two locations really wasn't very fun. 

As for the Blyxa, I would love to meet up soon. I don't know if I will put it in this tank as I haven't really figured out my other plants. I could use some in my nano though. It likely would look great in this tank but I am holding off on anything until the HC grows in. The only other plant I know I am going to use is fissidens. I am trying to use the mountains behind Stinson Beach as my influence, off of memory of course.

I will PM you right now Oleg.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

I think the scape looks really cool. The HC will eventually root. It takes patience, but I think it is pretty cool when it eventually does. I don't think you'll need a crazy amount of light for it. I wouldn't add any amanos or mts anytime soon. (not sure if you had plans to) I'd wait until the HC starts to fill in. Amanos love to uproot a lot of your efforts, and even mess with your slopes. Anyway. Great tip about the electrical outlet. You have any pictures of your autodosing setup. What are your plans for ferts etc? Quick HC tip: be sure to trim it down low and try to keep it from growing too much ontop of itself. It can really take off. And if you get lazy on the trimmings the plant can uproot if the mat gets too thick. The top layer of leaves will outcompete the bottom layer when it stacks up and the bottom layer will die and lose it's grip in the substrate causing it to float up. Also, when you trim, make sure to put a piece of screening or sponge over your intake of your lily pipe. The HC leaflets can be a pain if they get into your filter. I love hc, but the annoying part for me was the frequent trimming and cleanup. It would take me over an hour in my mini m to trim and then collect. I found a fine net suitable for shrimp was the best plant trimming collector. Mine grew so fast it was hard to keep up with. But I accredit that to the high light and long photoperiod I was keeping. I was just going to post a brief comment. my bad. looks good. all the best, walter


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Fat Guy said:


> I think the scape looks really cool. The HC will eventually root. It takes patience, but I think it is pretty cool when it eventually does. I don't think you'll need a crazy amount of light for it. I wouldn't add any amanos or mts anytime soon. (not sure if you had plans to) I'd wait until the HC starts to fill in. Amanos love to uproot a lot of your efforts, and even mess with your slopes. Anyway. Great tip about the electrical outlet. You have any pictures of your autodosing setup. What are your plans for ferts etc? Quick HC tip: be sure to trim it down low and try to keep it from growing too much ontop of itself. It can really take off. And if you get lazy on the trimmings the plant can uproot if the mat gets too thick. The top layer of leaves will outcompete the bottom layer when it stacks up and the bottom layer will die and lose it's grip in the substrate causing it to float up. Also, when you trim, make sure to put a piece of screening or sponge over your intake of your lily pipe. The HC leaflets can be a pain if they get into your filter. I love hc, but the annoying part for me was the frequent trimming and cleanup. It would take me over an hour in my mini m to trim and then collect. I found a fine net suitable for shrimp was the best plant trimming collector. Mine grew so fast it was hard to keep up with. But I accredit that to the high light and long photoperiod I was keeping. I was just going to post a brief comment. my bad. looks good. all the best, walter


Thanks for the compliment. This is not my first effort with an HC carpet. That's actually a major reason why I didn't care to fill earlier than later as I just don't enjoy trimming it all the time. The only reason I say it was "prematurely filled" is that I didn't let a lot of it root. I would say about 1/3 has ended up in my filter, 1/2 of what is left has been replanted, and 1/4 more should be replanted lol.


I don't plan on adding any livestock for awhile. The main reason is I need to reevaluate my fish care. I hate to admit but I am not as good at keeping fish as I would like. A lot of this has to do with the fact that for the last 3 years, I have been bouncing around a lot. I would stay at my girls house and we eventually kind of moved in together. She had roommates and then a small apartment. My parents let me keep my recording studio at their place so I never really had a steady place I would go home to every night. I was really good when I was home a lot so now that my girl and I have a house, I think I should do a lot better.

The second reason is I often have bought fish on a whim and just didn't like them. I really need to decide exactly what I want. I also need something I can get locally so I don't buy to much at once. 

This filter is also not cycled so that is another issue in itself. I can seed it with mulm from my other tank and/or do fish less. 


As for ferts, I am just doing EI doesing to start. The only reason I have an autodosing system is for the reason I described above. I tried to do a high tech setup when I wasn't around enough. It's not all that interesting, just two containers with fountain pumps on a digital timer that comes on for 1 min. per day. I haven't set it up yet but I will take pictures when I get to it. I am just dry dosing right now.



On another note...this fixture is pissing me off. Well, more so, I have 3 and they all are pissing me off. A bulb when out last night on the fixture above my tank. I went to hook another one up, just to see which bulbs were which color. The ballast is going out and the bulbs were flashing. One popped before I hit the switch. I remember now why I bought my other fixture, the bulbs are not reliable and I only have one brand to choose, 3 color choices. I think it will go soon.

The only reason I haven't swapped fixtures is my Aquaticlife needs to be hung. I have a few things I need to do to make a light bar work, which is the route I am thinking right now. I may also just put a shelf in, will figure that out once this months bills get paid lol. I wish the benders were easy to rent as I don't have a need to own one. Nobody seems to rent them anymore.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, sometimes it's funny how you can't wrap your head around something. I really wanted to figure out this light bar issue but then it occurred to me...this is my house, not an apartment. I can do whatever ever I want lol. I have only had my own home for 22 btw. 

I decided to just hang my other light of the ceiling. I have exposed rafters so I did not need to do anything special.

Looks a lot "beefier" than the Coralife, both the fixture and the mounting. I will swap out the chain for wire once I figure out the final height. I kind of just guessed on the height for now, will do some research soon.

Here it is though










I figured I would take some other shots. They are a bit blurry and the color is a bit off but it give you an idea. I haven't cleaned the glass, inside or out. The inside doesn't have algae, just plant leaves and stuff from the last scape.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Fat Guy said:


> You have any pictures of your autodosing setup.


Walter, here is an oversimplified explaination of my autodosing setup. It's commonly refereed to as a "fountain pump autodoser". Peristaltic pumps are better and people seem to find them cheap now but this works. It's kind of primitive but works.

The first thing you need is a digital timer that has one minute increments. This is very important as these pumps push a lot of water. I didn't take a picture but they are widely available. 

Please note that this is not setup yet.

I use this pump. I found a fitting that was the same diameter as a liquid syringe. This allows me to use airline tubing to get the ferts to the tank. Here is how that looks:











You put the pump into a container. I just bought some cheap plastic ones at the dollar store. To "calibrate" it you fill it with water and see how much comes out every minute. Make a mark for each minute. My timer has 26 programs so I just let it run until the water is gone (or almost gone). 

I say "calibrate" in quotes because it's not incredibly accurate, and there will always be a bit of water/ferts left over. Each mark represents 1 day of ferts. I got lucky and mine is 14 days so I add 2 weeks of ferts, as per what I would dose daily. So 14 times what you would do per day. And it last 2 weeks. Not the markings on the above picture. This is what it looks like in the container. It normally would be filled with water and ferts.










Hope you are still following. Now, once a day, for one minute, it pumps water/ferts into the tank through the airline hose. I made these little clamps to go on top of my tank. Then I used an airline "T" but melted the plastic so it only comes out one direction. Where the plastic is melted fits into a hole I drilled in the clip. This is what it looks like on top.











Hope that all makes sense.

I will briefly go over the upsides and downsides of this type of system.

Upsides:
-It doesn't take a lot of thought to figure it out. It's just simple physics, no computer controlling or ability to customize, it just is what it is.

-It only takes simple math to figure out how much ferts to mix. 

-All components are likely easily available and can be in your house tomorrow.

Downsides:
-It can be expensive for what it is compared to just doing it every day. I do both macros and micros so you need a pump for each, container, timer tubing.

-The amount of days is totally reliant on your pumps and container size. If you get a weird amount of days, it's hard to keep up. My first containers were 23 days. Second try was 10 days. Took me 3 different containers to get it right.

-A bit of ferts/water are left at the end. Every month or so I flush the system out.




Lastly, I really don't think I would have gone to the trouble if I was doing it now. It is good for someone who is out of town or may miss a day here and there. I needed it when I made it. Now I don't need it, but I have it so I may as well use it. 

Feel free to PM me if that isn't making sense. I didn't invent the idea, there are some DIY's on the board.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, actually got everything in. Just found out that I mixed up a fountain pump so I will not be using my autodoser until I find my other pump. Who knows how long that will take me to find lol.

Since I have everything in, I figured I would take an "under the hood" shot. You can see my regulator is kind of BS. I want to upgrade that soon, I am just going to build it as I have money and see things online.

I did make a mistake with the shelving. I forgot about the outlets so I only have one shelf. Stupid me, I should have put the filter/CO2 on the other side. It's all plumbed so I will deal with it. I will likely put my dry ferts elsewhere once I get my autodoser in order. I am proud of myself because this is by far the cleanest I have done things, outside the cords which I will deal with as it comes.

Sorry for the excessive updates, I just like to keep track of everything when I actually am on point and have time.

Last pic of the night:


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Hey Matt,

Thanks for the detailed response. Light looks great hung from the rafters and the auto doser looks rad too. Congrats on owning your own home!! great updates and upgrades. I feel you when it comes to livestock...especially fish. crazy difficult to decide, and once you do, you come home to find the ones that jumped...and your lovely school of shoaling fish decreases in size...and then one day you tweak your co2 and come home to find the shoal even sparser. It is much easier to add them later. your tank is going to look great. looking forward to the updates. -w


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Fat Guy said:


> Hey Matt,
> 
> Thanks for the detailed response. Light looks great hung from the rafters and the auto doser looks rad too. Congrats on owning your own home!! great updates and upgrades. I feel you when it comes to livestock...especially fish. crazy difficult to decide, and once you do, you come home to find the ones that jumped...and your lovely school of shoaling fish decreases in size...and then one day you tweak your co2 and come home to find the shoal even sparser. It is much easier to add them later. your tank is going to look great. looking forward to the updates. -w


Thanks, the light definitely makes the tank look more "substantial", for good or for bad lol. The woman has reitereated that the tank must look good 100% of the time lol.

I had an amazing school of Cardinals about a year ago. One day before a party, I thought it would look cool to fill the water to the absolute top of the tank. Woke up, not in my best state, to 2 left. Wasn't fun.

I am thinking about doing Cardinal Tetra's again. The thing I don't like is I will get a random death for what appears to be no reason. Then it will happen again, maybe in a week, maybe in 3 months. I just have never had consistency with them. Maybe someone more experienced than I would know what's going on, I could never figure it out. 

I want something that schools well for sure. Rummy Nose Tetra's could work but I am wondering if they will be too "dull". They are not hard to find in my general area but not easy to find close. I said earlier in the journal that I want to stock super slow so I don't want to go somewhere 30-45 min away to get 3 fish lol. I haven't visited my local stores in awhile though, just because I haven't had the need. I am definitely only doing one species, maybe two but the second would be shrimp.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Non photo update (though I may take pictures later).

I kind of regret not doing a longer dry start, or planting the HC better, either would have been a good idea. I think I have lost about 1/2 to 2/3rds of my HC from uprooting. 

On the plus side, HC has transitioned and is a bright green, rather than the dull green it has been transitioning out of. I get a tiny bit of pearling but not significant. I may lower the light, or have a noon burst, as I absolutely love seeing my plants pearl. I know it's fine if they are not pearling but I just like the effect. I do think the lighting will allow for a tank that isn't a lot of maintenance if I keep it as is. Writing this so when I inevitably lower the light and add double the light on a noon burst and get algae, I can say that I told my self so when I get algae.



I may make a thread on this but I have a weird thing going on. I had this black algae on a bunch of my rocks in another tank. Didn't bug me. However, I am getting a small amount of this on the rocks that had it. I didn't clean my rocks. I am wondering if this algae can survive and go dormant. I can take out the rocks that have it (all small) and bleach them which I may do tonight. Kind of strange. This algae only appears on rocks and substrate, never on plants, have no clue what it is. Not problematic yet but I would hate for all my rocks to be covered in this stuff. 


I also am getting a lot of film on the surface. I am thinking it's from the substrate which I reused from a tank with the same issue, no rinsing as I was hoping I could keep some beneficial bacteria. Not sure why it's there. On my last tank, even if I used my surface skimmer, it would come back. It always was way worse when I started a tank and would just be kind of noticeable after the fact. I know it isn't the brand of substrate because I have used it a lot without issues, I don't know if it is the cause.


Anyway, not concerned, just have minor issues that are kind of odd to me. No pics because their is less HC than the last, though now everything seems to be rooted well. I may take pics later if I have the energy, had a super fun weekend with friends and family but paying the price today with a huge hang over lol.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I started this thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2107960#post2107960

I am just wondering if anyone wants to help give ideas for stocking. I honestly just don't know what to do, outside of Cardinals which I like but want something new. I have bought so many fish I don't like and having a single species makes that experience not so fun.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

This update is kind of boring. The HC has continued to uproot so it actually looks like I am going backwards. In truth, I have a lot of HC that is just right at the substrate level and it's much more spread out that you would think in pictures. I have also been diligent in trimming any upward growth because I don't have a lot of light on this tank. I have a feeling that once I see some noticeable growth, it will fill in much more quickly than it looks. Still think it will take awhile but I will experiment with upping the light once I have more plant mass, now is too soon. 

I bought 6 featherfin rainbow's. I did two things I told myself I wouldn't do. First is I didn't test my water before I bought the fish. I actually went to the store to buy a test kit but they didn't have a full one and were missing one critical one for me to piece together. The second was buying more than a few fish at once. I hate how stores make it significantly cheaper to buy in bulk but I just went ahead and got six. I am sure everything will be fine but I will feel bad if any die because it may be too early, and I told myself I would stock very slow. 

On a positive note, I have yet to have much algae at all. As I said in another post, I was getting this black algae that I think was actually dormant and came back. It only gets on the rocks and I just took the two out and bleached them. I also have a very small amount of BGA. It doesn't seem to be spreading much and I pull what I can and have it go into my filter since my UV is on. I will just nuke it with Maracyn as I am 98% certain it came from my last tank and was in the substrate.


Here are some quick/ugly pics:

Front:










Close up of HC to give an idea of what is going on:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Simple update:
This tank has gone through a few cycles of algae. The first and most obvious is diatoms. That hasn't totally gone away but much better. I also got a fair amount of BGA. I think that was either already in the substrate from the last tank I tore down, or from the fact I just rinsed a really dirty filter sponge, along with quite a bit of dead HC. Either way, I conquered it for the first time without using Erythromycin or anything else. Just upped the nitrates and it went away. Lastly, I was getting some fuzz algae, kind of died off for the most part. I haven't treated or removed any algae so I think I am doing well, even though it's frustrating.

Now, the tank seems to be balancing it self out, but growth has been slow. I told myself I would not do anything sudden and I am trying to keep to that. The one time I didn't was filling to early and I lost probably 2/3 of my HC if not more. Filling to early wasn't the mistake, not replanting it was. Anyway, I am doing everything very slowly which probably isn't much fun to watch. I did lower my light about an inch, today, to see what happens. If it goes good for awhile, I plan to extend the photoperiod. If that goes good, I may try my second bank of lights for a noon burst. I will continue to move slowly myself but hopefully growth picks up soon.

Not super interesting yet but here is a pic:


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## infamouz23 (Dec 28, 2008)

I like how your scape makes this look substantially larger than a 20 long. BTW, where do you get your co2 filled? I'm not too far away.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

infamouz23 said:


> I like how your scape makes this look substantially larger than a 20 long. BTW, where do you get your co2 filled? I'm not too far away.


It doesn't look that much bigger in real life. I have had tanks that actually look bigger so that's the only reason I say that. I do need to vacuum up some of the mulm I put in the tank though, I see it everyday so I didn't know how ugly it is until I see past pics. 

As for CO2, I have been using Airgas in Concord forever. It used to be a bit of a trek for me when I was going to St. Mary's but now I am 2-3 min away, at most. I doubt it's the cheapest place but it only takes about 5 min and they have always treated me well.


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## infamouz23 (Dec 28, 2008)

Thanks for the info and once I build my regulator, I'll be sure to check out airgas.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

infamouz23 said:


> Thanks for the info and once I build my regulator, I'll be sure to check out airgas.


I did forget to mention they may only do exchanges, not sure because I never asked and didn't start with a nice tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I am having algae again. My tubing started leaking as it's really old at the check valve. Time to go get CO2 proof tubing as I have been using silicone tubing successfully forever and like it better but I haven't been using it at high pressure, guess that's not going to work. Still dialing in again, every time I have an issue, I start from scratch, just in case it was leaking when I had it right, don't want to gas the fish.

I thought the brown stuff was just mulm that came from another filter (and I would have seeded the filter, not the tank in retrospect). Now I am getting some fuzz algae, easy enough to deal with.

The other thing is I added more Featherfin Rainbows. I have 13 now. Debating if I want more or not. When they are all over the tank, it looks somewhat crowded, not bad at all, just not wanting me to add more. When they school, 13 doesn't look like much more than the initial 6 did. 


Sorry for the horrible pic, my best camera is my phone and it only does well on grow out tanks. Growth is speeding up, I don't know if it shows in pics, now that everything is pretty solidly rooted. Still will be a while I think to fill all the way in.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Photo update..
Nothing new to report, algae seems to be under control, no issues outside of random green spot algae on the rocks and glass. I just trimmed as when I replant, many pieces grow upwards until the first trim. It was a bit more "lush" before but it will grow in faster this way.


Sorry, my best camera is my phone, I will take some pics with a tripod soon.


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

What substrate are you using? I like the look of it, but I dont recognize it.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

altiuscitius said:


> What substrate are you using? I like the look of it, but I dont recognize it.


It's a mixture of a few things, not because I wanted to, I just had to add to it and I couldn't find Flourite Black Sand. It's about 50% Flourite Black Sand, 25% Flourite Black, 25% Petco black sand.


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## dj2005 (Apr 23, 2009)

Nice looking scape. Picture update?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

dj2005 said:


> Nice looking scape. Picture update?


I was going to do one last night, probably not today, maybe tomorrow.

However, it's not going to be the prettiest. I have been a bit neglectful and my BGA problem that I thought was resolved isn't. I have been planning to update, so I will do soon, even though it's not at it's best.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

I look forward to seeing an update. 

Those threadfins are nice in there.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, update time. 

The good:
HC is filling in well. 

The bad:
I thought I got rid of my BGA. Not the case. I am thinking it's because I had it really bad in my last tank and reused the substrate. I am considering nuking it with Maracyn or trying Bacter 100. Bacter 100 seems interesting because of other benefits and is around the same price. I also go to SF on a somewhat regular basis so taking a trip to ADA would be nice, been awhile.

I have also lost 3 fish. One was a jumper, the other two died in the tank. One died pretty early after acclimation which I can't get right for the life of me. I have tried everything and am successful maybe 2/3 of the time with no deaths. The non jumper was random so I don't know what's going on, I don't have a test kit. One of my goals of this tank was to be a better fish keeper, something I wish I was better at after 5 years. Hopefully it will be the last.


To do:
Get a better camera. I am planning to add some type of shrimp. Probably just RCS or fire reds, I actually like RCS better. I haven't kept any other shrimp but have had great luck with these guys. I would like to try something more exotic but the combination of budget, the fact the tank is high tech, high co2, my lack of skills, and local availability may keep me from trying. We will see. I do plan to add more feather fin rainbows as well, want to wait a bit to make sure everything is fine. Probably should get a master test kit. I think I need to bring the light output down as well, simple as raising the light or stopping the noon burst. Hopefully I clear up the BGA


Unfortunately my only camera is my Iphone so I could only get one pic that looks OK. Everything else was too blurry. I will try to get more angles but that's hard when the sun is up and I won't be around tonight. Again, BGA is pretty bad, HC growth has been good though.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sooooo...since last update. After a heavy trim, BGA just blew up. It was show up here and their but over 2 days, my tank was covered. Went ahead and treated with Maracyn. I have read on hear to stop dosing at the time. Well, that was a week without dosing and the HC is a bit yellow and doesn't look as healthy. It's bouncing back though. I got some brown algae in the process, I attribute it to either lack of dosing, or the fact I put a HOB filter which messed with the CO2 levels. I still have the HOB filter on and have to inject about 3x or more CO2 to get similar levels. 

Unfortunately, I have less HC than the last update. The reason is increably simple. Between trying to pull up some of the BGA, and the brown algae I now have, I pull up some HC as well. Not a big deal, most of the tank has at least some solidly rooted HC which will spread quickly.

I have a philosophical view of this tank, and others I have had. Even on my most low maintenance tanks, if I don't "love them up", they tend to go south. I have been very consumed with other things and just not paid attention to this tank. Not that it has been an easy tank but it's lacking so love. One of my favorite/easy tanks that was high tech just got a through look over every day with some random dosing. I personally feel that the hours of attention it got during the week just made it work, even though I never had a real formula to it.


Next to do:
-Thinking about adding some color with stems as I am kind of bored of the layout. 

-Still need a camera, I can't even find my old camera that sucks but atleast I can use a tripod.

-Search for the balance. I my light level is OK if I does consistantly but a missed few days can really mess things up. I find the HC grows better compared to when I have raised the lights and skipped the noon burst but I have to stay on top of things.

-Love up the tank, see above

-Still planning to add shrimp, just haven't had time or thought about it.

-Maybe change up the diffuser setup. I have one inline that does about 80% of the CO2. I then do 20% through the in tank one. It is cool because I can just turn the in tank one when I get new fish but I am wondering if it may be causing issues.


That said, here are some cellphone pics. I did minor editing, only to reflect the real colors. I didn't not clean the glass enough but I am exhausted so it is what it is.


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## assasin6547 (Feb 6, 2013)

It's still a nice tank despite the algae. Good luck keep battling.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

assasin6547 said:


> It's still a nice tank despite the algae. Good luck keep battling.


Thanks. I think I need to quit battling and start loving, lol, like I said. I think the true cause of most my problems was reusing an algae ridden substrate without rinsing, much less letting it dry out. I know shrimp will eat the brown algae so that may be the next course of action. High tech was much easier in my college years, outside a few weeks, I just could pay so much more attention. Even though I work at home ATM, or more so have my own business, I get really caught up in what I am doing and just don't "respect" my tank enough.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Non-photo update...I forgot to do this:



talontsiawd said:


> I have a philosophical view of this tank, and others I have had. Even on my most low maintenance tanks, if I don't "love them up", they tend to go south. I have been very consumed with other things and just not paid attention to this tank. Not that it has been an easy tank but it's lacking so love. One of my favorite/easy tanks that was high tech just got a through look over every day with some random dosing. I personally feel that the hours of attention it got during the week just made it work, even though I never had a real formula to it.



Life got a bit ahead of me and I wasn't dosing ferts. I still haven't setup my autodoser yet which will be a big help. I know it's been months but, yeah, major changes in live makes that 30 minutes hard to find. 

Hadn't looked at my tank in 2-3 days or more, dosed some ferts when the lights were off. Found out my CO2 was out. Don't know how long. 


So, refilled CO2. Raised light about 6 in. No noon burst. I have more brown algae, some green string algae, some green slime, and some green spot algae. It sucks when you set a goal and go backwards.

I think the changes will give me much more margin for error which I need right now. Will post some pics when I get things moving.

On the plus side, I cleaned my inline diffuser which is more of a task than it should be, due to the way I plumbed it. I also cleaned my lily pipes. I am not jealous of those who have high end ADA stuff, I would have broken these so bad. I really hope that we see some high end acrylic lily pipes someday because these are so durable. Hopefully I set myself up for better luck and a bigger margin of error.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I have another non photo update. I was doing all my philosophical stuff, loving the tank up, giving it more of my time. Things were improving...for a bit.

Learned a valuable lesson in the last 2 days. Maintain your equipment. My CO2 levels compared to BPS seemed off. My tank ran out pretty fast as well, not crazy fast to where it was obvious, just a little to fast. I had two leaks. One leak was at my GLA diffuser. I broke the plastic nut and never dealt with it, was using a zip tie. The second was where I didn't replace some silicone tubing after I switched to the GLA diffuser. The silicone works fine at low pressure but was pulling off the check valve. Replaced the tubing. I replaced the nut on the compression fitting...wow, I didn't know this thing worked so well.


I then noticed that my O ring wasn't sealing on my canister. I hear it pulling in some air so no surprise, leak wasn't very bad so no damage to stand, floor etc. Well, about a year ago, I broke the top nipple off the pump housing cover of my Eheim 2215 and was using a hose clamp. Worked fine but in the process of of moving things, it broke worse, to the point I couldn't use it. Again, I was planning on buying a new cover for about a year, just didn't get around to it.

Lesson learned, buy everything when it breaks and use the make shift fix _temporarily. 

_I have fixed the CO2 but can't run it because I can't run my canister until I get the parts. What a day I had, fun stuff.

The only cool thing that happened was when I place my order with Amazon, I found out I had a gift card I forgot about so I have a "free" pump cover coming to me. 

Now I just have to figure out how to put the media in the tank or something to keep it going. I figured the LFS is closed and me being a bit defeated, I had 2 beers. Now I realize Petsmart is open still. I guess it doesn't matter because my fiancee is having a client over for a few hours and I can't work on it anyway.


Sorry, sort of a rant but I do find some humor in this. One problem just lead to the next and at each one, totally my fault for not being proactive.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

layout is looking good!! sucks about the filter. hang in there


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

While waiting for new parts, I have spent the week really going through everything. I get my pump head cover tomorrow which I can't wait for. 

I started with cleaning my diffuser. Being inline and only having one, it's not so easy to give it a deep clean. When I last cleaned it, I injected excel into it with an oral syringe. It helped but I did bleach this time since I had a lot of time. After I was done, I did a little excel for fun. This works so much better. I can actually push air through it with just the syringe so I think that will work a lot better. 

I also found a brass fitting for where it was leaking. I used some teflon tape and didn't crank too hard. Because it was not inline, I could test it for leaks using a pitcher. No leaks, super stoked.

I also thoroughly cleaned my filter, something I had not done in awhile. I rinse the sponges but not the bio media. This filter has been in use for about 4-5 years so their was a lot of gunk in it. I rinsed in tank water, hopefully I didn't loose what bio filter I have left. Luckily I had the HOB filter so I do have a seeded filter for the time being.

I also cleaned my lily pipes. I will struggle tonight to get the suction cups on. They are a real pain on the outside of the tank.

Lastly, I did some major algae removal. I tried to suck up some of the brown algae in the past but would pull up some HC. I just trimmed it like crazy so it didn't have as much mass per roots. I was able to pull it up much more easily. I still have quite a bit and am planning for frequent large water changes for the future. Hopefully I can get ahead of it. 

My CO2 has been out of wack so that is my priority once I get my canister up and running. I still need to clean the glass really well but that's about it. 

I lost 2 fish from jumping. I kept the water level higher with the HOB, my mistake. I can't find the things though haha.

It was actually pretty nice having the time to do each bit, a little at a time. I have reduced my photoperiod to 6 hours since my CO2 really wasn't where it was supposed to be. I also raised the light up. I will continue that for awhile, even though my HC grows upwards. 

I will take some pics after I clean the glass. Hopefully my mistakes will keep me diligent and turn around the tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I cannot get good pics for the life of me. My iphone gives me the best pics, even compared to my point and shoot on the tripod. Here are some pictures after a hard trim. Didn't clean the glass fully.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Got my new filter top. HOB will go once I know my main filter is seeded. Very happy, I must say. New goals, get CO2 on point, even though I will have to do it again once the HOB goes but that's the priority.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> Got my new filter top. HOB will go once I know my main filter is seeded. Very happy, I must say. New goals, get CO2 on point, even though I will have to do it again once the HOB goes but that's the priority.


adios HOB.  you'll dial in the co2 soon enough.


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## thechristophershow (Feb 26, 2013)

Can I ask what substrate that is, and also, what's HC? I'm new to tanks, let alone plants for tanks.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thechristophershow said:


> Can I ask what substrate that is, and also, what's HC? I'm new to tanks, let alone plants for tanks.


Substrate is a combination of Flourite Black, Flourite Black Sand and Petco black sand. I haven't had good luck with it on this tank but most of it is about 5 years old. 

HC is just how we short hand the species of plant Hemianthus callitrichoides. It is also known as Dwarf Baby Tears. Here is is some more info:
https://www.google.com/#hl=en&gs_rn...16,d.cGE&fp=b06ea409d75fabbd&biw=1760&bih=827


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Probably should update as well. I have had just about every type of algae now. I had this weird brown algae that almost looked like mulm. Never had it before, I really doubt it was just mulm but maybe. The bottom parts of the HC started to rot a bit. So, I was getting decent growth but the bottom yellowed. I tried to remove it by siphon and by just stirring up the substrate which worked but my HC would float up. I finally added some more substrate to hold down what was their. I have a bit of it left and some regular green spot algae. Will take pics at some point.


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## thechristophershow (Feb 26, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Substrate is a combination of Flourite Black, Flourite Black Sand and Petco black sand. I haven't had good luck with it on this tank but most of it is about 5 years old.
> 
> HC is just how we short hand the species of plant Hemianthus callitrichoides. It is also known as Dwarf Baby Tears.


Thanks for the info. But what makes you attribute your tank problems to the substrate?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

thechristophershow said:


> Thanks for the info. But what makes you attribute your tank problems to the substrate?


I actually don't know what the problem is on this tank still trying to figure it out. I just didn't want you to discount any interest because it's a very attractive substrate I have really liked to use over the years, especially in black.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Non photo update...I am just struggling with this tank. My brown algae cleared, only to get a lot of green dust/green slime algae. I also got hit with some BGA again but I am totally convinced this stuff can remain dormant without water as every time I have added old substrate that had BGA in it, I get it within 24 hours badly. BGA is gone now, just green algae.

I am having some trouble with my HC melting at the base. I am thinking that it may just be algae choking it out but I would appreciate some advice. It is perfectly healthy on the top parts but melts at the bottom. Every time I do maintenance, I loose about 10-25%. Basically, my tank is starting to regress. I did make a thread here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=343162

I have removed all live stock so I can up my CO2 well above what would be reasonable with livestock. Sort of my last resort. Any advice would be fantastic as I am about to give up. I will likely add a photo update later on this week.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

To add to my last post, here are some pictures. Looking kind of rough lol. We will see where this goes. That's probably why I don't update much.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

On a good note for me...bad note for the journal...if anyone is still following...tank is torn down. 

I had really bad GSA. Every time I added old substrate (not rinsed), I got BGA immediately (within hours). I am totally convinced that BGA can remain dormant without any water, etc. I looked it up and though I couldn't find anything from fellow aquarists, I did find some scientific journals. I bleached my substrate and rocks, probably should have bought new substrate and I may today but I had the same problem in my nano and this worked.


Good news, I just finished my "new" layout, based 100% on my old one. It's not exact by any means and I like some of it better, some not but these are all the rocks I have now (I think, I may have like 3 more). I will start a new journal soon, off to AFA in a few. Need a few drinks before hand (fiance is driving) so I make sure I impulse buy a few things HAHA. 

If people want me to start a new journal, let me know. This one was incredibly boring so I may take pics as I go and wait until it works out, or never tell you guys it didn't:icon_mad::icon_mrgr


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## chew (May 18, 2012)

Everyone struggles with aquariums at some point. I had a tank full of hair algae for months that I had to manually remove the algae from every other day. I hope you restart your journal; it is always nice to see people's struggles and then the success that they finally achieve. One thing that did help me was starting with just the plants and getting the co2 dialed in. I found it was a lot easier to worry about just the plants first and not have to worry about fauna. Good luck with your tank


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

chew said:


> Everyone struggles with aquariums at some point. I had a tank full of hair algae for months that I had to manually remove the algae from every other day. I hope you restart your journal; it is always nice to see people's struggles and then the success that they finally achieve. One thing that did help me was starting with just the plants and getting the co2 dialed in. I found it was a lot easier to worry about just the plants first and not have to worry about fauna. Good luck with your tank


I did restart to the same idea I had. I know the struggles of a planted tank but this just has been a hard road for me. I have successfully used the same light, plants, etc. I did decide to do a few thing differently though on restart. Not because I wanted to, because I felt I could do it better with less maintenance. Lets hope it works.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Blah. Pictures or I'll have to come over.

via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Blah. Pictures or I'll have to come over.
> 
> via Droid DNA Tapatalk 2


I wasn't planning to update unless I started another journal but here you go. I don't like the layout quite as much as the last but the slope is taller and more defined which makes it look a bit more massive so it's give and take.

New plants are Glosso, HC, Micro Sward, DHG, and I have some Fissidens I plan to add in small patches. The coolest part is that almost none came up during filling/overnight

I am aware I have yet to clean my lily pipes and other, even the glass isn't totally clean.

Layout










Filled


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## Jahn (Apr 26, 2013)

Your glassware and heater looks to be in the same condition as it was in the old tank. Shouldn't you clean as much algae as you can off of those? Otherwise you'll just be reintroducing that algae to the tank again.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168012

looks like people use bleach.

edit - oh, it looks like you already filled it up with water and put the glassware in - might be too late as far as introducing it then - but hey, can't hurt to start now, right?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Jahn said:


> Your glassware and heater looks to be in the same condition as it was in the old tank. Shouldn't you clean as much algae as you can off of those? Otherwise you'll just be reintroducing that algae to the tank again.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168012
> 
> ...


I got a bit ahead of myself but yes, I should have bleached everything. I wasn't planning to plant last night but got excited. I actually plan to clean the filter out top to bottom as well.


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

I 2nd the notion to clean your glassware. Let them soak in a diluted bleach solution overnight then rinse with hot water. You can do the same for the c02 diffusor. You will probably want to clean the tubes too, I'm assuming you have cleaned out your filter and media by now too.

Looks like you raised the light up, good move. If you are keeping the c02 levels sufficient with a side of appropriate fertilizer then you're bound for success. It's a great scape and that light looks more than bright, I am jealous! Goodluck!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

synaethetic said:


> Looks like you raised the light up, good move. If you are keeping the c02 levels sufficient with a side of appropriate fertilizer then you're bound for success. It's a great scape and that light looks more than bright, I am jealous! Goodluck!


Thanks for the compliment. I think my problems were more from having too much organic matter in the substrate. I had a similar problem in another tank where I consistently got BGA until I nuked it as well as residual algae. It was a low tech tank with not much light. I bleached the substrate their, had no issues, did it again here, hope I get the same results. If I had not already tried, I would have replaced the substrate.

I did raise the light quite a bit as well. I am hoping that the glosso will carpet at a lower light amount and I will adjust it down if need be. It's nice to have it this high as I often don't have any room lights on and this tank goes off pretty late at night. 

I was about to bleach my glassware and just realized I used it all when bleaching the substrate. May have to wait until tonight. Not too concerned, the algae on the pipes had more than a few hours to dry out.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I broke my lily pipe cleaning. Fortunately it's acrlyic so superglue fixed it (on outflow area). Unfortunately it's too fragile to clean anymore.

On that note...new journal for PT 2

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=3568129#post3568129


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