# 125/50 - update Jan 2018, rebuild planning commences



## tattooedfool83

Subscribed. 


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## pandacory

I am interested in seeing how it looks with the plumbing along the side. Sort of a workaround to my nemisis: the black background of a drilled tank.


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## crazymittens

Sketchup preliminaries are my next step, I will post some ideas.

This tank is going in a spot that allows full viewing access from both sides - on one, the living room, on the other, my desk. That alone makes it mandatory to have all plumbing situated on the ends. This is a further complication in that we have a 1.5 year-old and another one on the way (both boys)...it means I need to come up with a way of either making the plumbing rock-solid, or keeping small, curious, energetic hands away from super-critical stuff.

I'll be progressing a little slower with this journal until we get some house projects out of the way, so bear with me.

Coming soon...sketchups of the layout/plumbing basics, followed by a lengthy discourse on sump design for freshwater tanks. I kinda want to nail down exactly what's required.


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## crazymittens

Ok, let's restate the goals of this build so the sump design can be validated.

No water changes (1/year maximum acceptable)
Minimum maintenance requirements
Enjoyable view of fish & plants

Breaking these goals down...

No water changes

Time-consuming - deal breaker for owning a tank
Messy and a hassle
Automating this is not possible (at this time)

Minimum maintenance

Tasks that must be performed to keep tank in a livable (to fish)/enjoyable (to me) state
Acceptable maintenance tasks: cleaning glass once/month, feeding 2-4 times per week, adding water every 2-3 weeks (evap), clean mechanical filtration once/month
Two hours/month is acceptable

Enjoyable view

Tank is in a family area, makes a relaxing view, conversation piece
Tank is also next to my office desk, so helps make work enjoyable

Based on my experience thus far, it's clear to me that these goals are 100% attainable with a little research and design effort. My sump has worked very well this past year, but the jump from 50G display to 125G display should be taken seriously. A huge amount of water in there, and a lot more to go wrong.

So...we've established that display is 125G, sump will be 50G, and if possible, incorporate the 30G, giving us ~200G of water in the system. Let's look at the plumbing first, since before we deal with filtration, we need to deal with moving water safely and continuously through display/sump/refugium.

Plumbing - Overflow design & drains
I'll be re-using the Beananimal setup from the 50G...good thing I went total overkill on that build (it was expensive, however). According to a number of overflow calculators, I require the following:

System throughput: 1200GPH (two pumps, probably after losses more like 1000-1100GPH)
Overflow minimum: 18"
Minimum drain size: 1.43"

The Beananimal system (Herbie +1) gives me 3" of drain right off the bat, plus an additional 1.5" in the emergency, so with a safety factor of 3x required drainage...we good. If you are not familiar with the Beananimal system...google it already. Big props to Beananimal for taking the time to document/draw in CAD. System works exactly as specified.

The overflow sizing, however, will be 18" exactly...on the 50G it was 36". I am not anticipating issues, but this is an area where more research is required - consequences of too short an overflow. Guessing just a thicker weir, perhaps more noise...?

At any rate, the rest of the design will be identical to the 50G. All bulkheads and whatnot will be re-used...gaskets should be fine, less than a year old and have never leaked. I'll need to drill the lid so I can get the secondary siphon tube through the top, that's about it.

Plumbing - Return design & pumps
My setup today uses two return pumps, one at 750GPH, one at ~500GPH (IIRC), both with 3/4" outlets. The lines are PVC today with loc-line for adjustments in-tank. Further, the returns are 'through tank', something I thought was awesome, but ultimately is a bad idea, especially in a 125G unit. 

The flaw is simple - if your ball valves fail and you start siphoning, your returns are mounted below the water line (1-2") and so you suck back into the sump that much water (in the 50G, ~3G). Not a huge deal until you realize that your overflow still has to empty (1-2G), and what if you've just topped up the sump? Several gallons spilled. Wife not pleased.

The fix is running the returns over the top of the tank, through the lid, and using 'siphon breaks' (holes drilled in the return like 1cm below water line). Since I have the ability to drill glass, no biggie...this is what I'll be doing. Further, no more ball valves. So rattly and annoying for something that 'might' work.

The one area where I've struggled is with the return flow pattern. Some people use fan attachments to spread the water out, others spray bars. In my case I used the normal cone-shaped spray pieces, pointed them at the front-middle-top of the tank (returns located at either end of the tank), and lived with a turbulent center and weak back edges.

Anyways...I am thinking since the drain/overflow will be at one end, I'll try doing dual spray bars mounted vertically, one at the front, one at the back.

Plumbing - Sump design
The sump in this scenario performs a few functions:

Mechanical filtration (big coarse filter pad)
Biofiltration via biofilter media (pot scrubbies in my case)
Additional water volume helps make parameters easier to handle
Provides a place for submerged equipment to live, thus better display tank view

The mechanical filtration is aided somewhat by the 'gutter guard' placed on the overflow (prevents fishies from getting sucked down), but is mostly there to deal with excess food, stuff kicked up from substrate, etc. I tried filter socks, but they got clogged up way too fast...I don't need that level of filtration, anyways.

Biofiltration is pretty straightforward...lots discussed on this. Pot scrubbies are the generally accepted 'best bang for the buck' biofilter media - this is not a luxo-bling build, and with 50G I have tons of space to play with.

Additional water volume...yep. 50G is additional. Not sure how much water the Rena Filstar XP2/XP3 units hold (used on the 125G by previous owner), but it sure ain't 50G. More like...2G. No wonder he used a UV sterilizer.

Keeping the equipment below also means it can be shut behind padded doors, so you cut out even more noise. If I had blingy mag-drive pumps (and no ball valve nonsense), the system would probably be near-silent.

The design itself...I'll probably just keep the same idea, but double or triple the pot scrubbie count. Gerry's (barrreport.com) sump has a nice feature where water is trickled onto his biomedia - something I attempted to duplicate (with spectacular failure) - so if anything, this would be my next experiment.

Plumbing - Refugium design
Ya no clue on this right now. Not even sure the tank will physically fit.

Plumbing - Conclusion
We good. Except for overflow width concerns. And fitting the refugium. And designing the sump.



It's my build thread, and I'll write a novel if I want to. K?


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## trailsnale

really looking forward to your build!


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## crazymittens

Had a few spare minutes, so sketched the basics...

Sketch of normal tank viewing angle









Sketch of drains/overflow









Sketch of return plumbing & spraybars









As I was drawing the spraybars, realized they would introduce the potential for draining the entire tank. Guess this is why powerheads are used!! Well, if not spraybars, then probably the fan attachment on the loc-line set vertically.

You will also note how cramped the whole thing is already. Refugium will be a battle. I'm also coming to the conclusion that I will have to build a fully custom stand for all this.


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## crazymittens

Good resource! http://reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator

At this point, my 1200GPH calculations may be...enthusiastic. Just covering for future return pump upgrades...right?


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## crazymittens

More sump discussion, really good stuff in this thread: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/9207-Sump-basics/page3

I noticed some higher nitrates lately, and I'm wondering if it is due to me changing the design of the sump. Just recently I removed the drip tray portion as it was badly designed and caused sump malfunctions (floods). This meant that there were no longer any pot scrubbies exposed to drips/air, all submerged. It's entirely possible this reduced my sumps filtration capacity, and coupled with the new batch of fish (dirty platies!), raised nitrates from 10 to 30ish.

Real quick sketch here...water line in the first dump section will be higher...I think.


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## crazymittens

Refugium issues
Thought about this...the physical space is just not there. At least under the tank...

So there are a few options here:

Use a 10G nano cube next to the sump
Use a 20G tall on my desk (blocks the view quite a bit)
Use the 30G on the far end of my desk, not connected to this sytem

It really comes down to 'do I need a refugium?' Discuss.

Pros

More water in the system
More space for growing plants, thus better filtration
Functions as shrimparium

Cons

Takes up more space
Somewhat complicated plumbing
More complexity to the system as a whole

I just had visions of a second Beananimal drain system using 3/4" plumbing. Hm. I'll do more measuring tonight.


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## crazymittens

Ha, just realized why I got so confused...that sketched sump is 48", not 36". Back to the drawing board! Re-measured and my load-bearing platform should be plenty wide enough for the two tanks and supporting beams. 

At the moment my most pressing issue is what to do with the fish I cannot house in my spare 20G. Rubbermaid containers? Could be weeks before the teardown/buildup is done.


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## Phil Edwards

Hey there, 

I've got a couple thoughts;

1. Don't use a spray bar, just have 1" elbow returns near the water's surface. That will provide less turbulent flow but the same amount of water movement through the tank. This will keep your plants from getting blow sideways. 

2. Drilling a 1/4" hole in your return plumbing just below the water's surface will break siphon when power's out. If you feel more comfortable with a bigger hole, that's fine too. I usually drill it so it aims at a 45* angle toward the glass downward from the water's surface.

That's it for now, phone call that I have to take


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## crazymittens

Hey Phil. Yup, I've abandoned the spray bar, and will definitely have siphon breaks. 1/4" seems rather large...but safe.

I have loc-line, so I can point the flow from both returns. The question is where do I point them?


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## crazymittens

Fish situation update
Decided against selling/giving away the fish...we really like them and LFS prices mean they are not cheap to replace. What this requires is one of two options:

Option1: Long-term move

Use all my spare tanks (20G, 10G, 10G, 10G)
Set up with filtration/cycle ahead of time
Move fish once cycled
Keep a sharp eye on parameters
Do build at leisure

Option2: Weekend move

Do as much prep work as possible (stand, sump panels, lids, etc)
Get a 'big' plastic tub & fill w. water from 50G
Utilize media from sump in spare XP3
Do teardown/build over 2 days

Option2 is ultimately less work...but at a frenzied pace, and with great organization. Sounds good!


Room sketches
You get the idea. Office is in the corner. Boxy thing on the wall is the TV. Desk behind the tank. This also has the correct dimensions for the 50 & 30 tanks. 20G is on my desk in the sketch. I have zero clue how to fabricate a stand for this. The sump being 18" wide is a problem.


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## crazymittens

Ugh...making the sump fit underneath is proving difficult.

View from beneath









Doubled 2x4s for vertical support, plywood of some sort as a structural skin (brace against racking). The bottom...I have no idea. Possibly just 'micro stands' directly under the tank with the rest directly on the floor. Note the top silvery bit is the aluminum structure currently in place. I could probably jack my house up with this thing (friend built it).


Version2









Ok...got it. First off, according to this calculator, a 3' piece of 2x4 is good for a vertical load of ~3500lbs. So weight-wise, we good. Second, racking forces will be strong with this, but if the back/sides are braced with plywood (screwed and glued), it ain't gonna rack. 

Not entirely sure how best to attach the aluminum top to the wooden base...but we'll make it work.

Bottom line, this won't win any craftsmanship awards, but it will fit in my ever-dwindling budget. Just.

Sump/refugium stands
These will simply be pieces of plywood cut to fit with shims to level underneath. Super-simple.


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## crazymittens

Making some more progress on the sump design. A few key changes...


1.5" drains will have to be converted to 1.5" braided flex-PVC lines where they enter the stand/sump
If a simpler alternative cannot be reached, going to try and make a beananimal drain system for the refugium...but it drains direct into the sump
Definitely want to incorporate a drip tray system as research indicates an oxygen-rich environment is best for the bacteria
An alternate to the above is the incorporation of air stones, but means more equipment/noise/items to maintain

I will have 3x .75" bulkheads spare, so making the Beananimal drain system from refugium into sump is possible.

Definitely realizing that I will not be able to direct swap the plumbing as-is, so good thing there are interested buyers for the extra parts that came with the tank.


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## crazymittens

Plumbing sketches

























Ok, a legend/key for the sketches above...

Display drains are 1.5" PVC w. flex where entering stand
Refugium drains are 0.75" PVC via mini-Beananimal
All 3 return pumps are via 0.75" PVC (or Eheim flex)
Heater is red
Water lines are noted in black
Drip tray area has two sections, same media - one is 'dry' the other 'wet'

The water level in the middle area of the tank dictates how much of the pot scrubbie media is kept aerated. That middle box area housing the scrubbies will essentially be packed full, so no flotation issues.

For the refugium, I wasn't sure what my options were...aside from taking the XP1's top and creating a weird little section in the sump for it...so instead I got creative! Or overcomplicated...

Refugium plumbing design
As mentioned, this will be essentially identical to the display overflow/drain setup, except I'll drill holes in that side of the sump to pass through the 0.75" PVC. The refugium itself will have 0.75" bulkheads...but didn't see a need for them on the sump side. If the water ever gets that high, I have way more serious issues to deal with. (I don't even think it's physically possible due to the overflow designs...even if the returns go into full siphon)

I'll then have another small return pump go over into a spraybar or just an elbow, not sure yet. I might even just use the spare 3/4" tubing instead of hard line. The nice part about this is I continue the theme of designing flooding out of the setup. If the power goes out, overflow finishes emptying, done.


If anyone can point out issues with this or have better ideas how to plumb the overflow back into the sump, please chime in! The only 'issue' I can see being raised is more complexity equating to more work to implement...but not more complexity = more points of failure, as the overflow/drain design I'm confident in.


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## Phil Edwards

I really need to learn how to use sketchup! Those designs are awesome!!

*locline...don't use it. You're better off having more gentle flow coming out of 1" elbows than jetting water across the tank. You'll get the same amount of current, but the flow will be better for everyone in the tank.


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## crazymittens

A nay for locline, eh? Hm...the fish currently seem to enjoy the high pressure... (no pun intended, ish)

Any thoughts on the direct drain from the refugium? Good/bad/ugly? I suppose I could use some sort of HOB overflow...but I like the bomb-proof-ness of the Beananimal design.


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## crazymittens

More sump design ideas (bottom of thread here).

Interesting ideas: http://www.hirtc.com/HIRTC/sump.jpg
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?415043-Fresh-water-sump-design/page2&

I think the key point in adding wet/dry functionality to a sump is keeping the 'dry' portion above the water line. So, to minimize the amount of water volume lost to this factor, the drip tray would have to utilize as much area as possible.

However, Phil Edwards (300G dutch build) is now bringing a new direction to this...in that having more and more consistent contact between water and biomedia is the ultimate method for biofiltration. More on that to come, I suspect.

In the meantime, I'll keep working on my stand plans...


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## crazymittens

In yet another twist...hopefully will be picking up a 48 (50?) gallon tank this week. Why? Two reasons - one, I started building a task list and it is a bit insane, and two, rushing things always ends up in cut corners, broken stuff, and unnecessary expenses.

I'm still thinking through the options, but I am considering:

Set this up next to the basement sink (for easy water changes) and migrate all fish/plants for a mid-term option.
Use this instead of the existing 50G as the new sump to accelerate the build process.

Hm. Either way, the price should be easily recouped, either in dollars or sanity.


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## crazymittens

Well, it's just a 30G, but it'll do the job. I felt really bad for the seller, so didn't turn them down when I saw the size. Besides, it's good enough, and I'll be re-selling it in future anyways.


























Even 'clean' it's still kinda dirty...but the inside is clean, so good enough. Note that I removed the rim...it did not have a center brace, therefore little function, and was cracked in 8 places.

I'll be using the XP1 and this powerhead stuffed with foam for filtration. Should be good for 30 fish in a 30G, eh? 25% water changes weekly just to be safe.

Still investigating whether or not they'll require a planted tank...I suspect it's 'better'...but perhaps not required. Going to assume things will be down for at least a month. Not certain what I'll be doing with the plants...probably use the spare 5G pails near a window.


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## crazymittens

Ok, I think we're done the planning phase here.

Next steps

Get the 30G ready for fish
Move the fish and plants
Full teardown
Cleanup and prep

More updates once that's done, unless the sump design changes...again...


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## pandacory

I like the linear plumbing layout, however, I would put the plumbing external to the tank if you can.

Look at the picture near the bottom of this link. It is not exactly what I was looking for, but close enough for the description. 

http://www.ultimatereef.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2191658

I haven't followed the thread closely enough to know where you are in the plumbing but wanted to catch you to share what I wish I would have done.

Basically drill the side of the tank, then construct a thin weir, like maybe protruding 1" or so into the tank footprint. Then, construct a box, supported by triangle pieces on the outside of these holes. Drill the bottom of this box and put your plumbing into it. This helps smooth the plumbing path and reduces the lost space inside the tank greatly.

Water skims from the surface over the weir. The holes in the tank equalize water levels between the weir and outside box. Plumbing in box does all the siphoning.

I wish I would have done this and not lost so much space in my tank. If I buy an undrilled tank in the future with the idea to drill it, this is what I would do.


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## pandacory

P.s. I would not do the angled weir as pictured. Just a thin traditional one.


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## pandacory

Couple of other points from experience:

The plumbing should enter the sump at a point of static water level. This does 2 things, constant back pressure on siphons and allows you to locate drain outlet just below the water surface. This both quiets the flow (no splashing) and evens the flow out.

So basically it looks like your design has the water enter, then pass under a weir and filter from the bottom up. I would do this opposite. I would have it enter from the top, then flow over a weir through your mechanical, then under the weir that seals the return. This creates a vessel for water to always enter at a place of constant water height. You can also go ghetto and use any container but do it right from the beginning (I had to do this when I cracked my original sump moving and needed to slap something together). Depending on space, you could put in another top down weir to mimic the design of a mechanical separator. So your filter cycle qould go enter silent=>separate heavy particulate => scrub fine particulate => bio => chem => temp=> co2=> return. That's what I would do.

Locate all your valves next to the sump Rather than at the siphon. I tried both and this worked better but Im not sure why. It also reduces the weight your plumbing is supporting. Use bulkheads on the lid entering the sump and seal that entry area. You're going to have to do the same for your refugium to stop excess splashing in the open top section that leads to co2 loss.

Leave enough space above the sump and refugium to use a gravel vac/siphon and a fish net. if you have never run a rack of tanks before, you will thank me later.

All of this is worth what you paid for it.


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## pandacory

One more thing, but I'm not promising this is the last unsolicited opinion from me. Lol. I've had way too much coffee to calm down.

Anyway, ideally your refugium should enter the same filtration process as your main tank. I umderstand why it isn't in your case, but I would say definitely do not link the refugium to the sump by drilling through both walls. Drill the refugirum and allow the flow to enter the sump from the top just like the main tank. This allows much more flexibility. As long as the sump is the lowest point it should work fine.


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## pandacory

On second look I realized your bottom up first mechanical accomplishes the same thing I suggested, but probably more evenly. Too much coffee...:bounce:


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## crazymittens

pandacory, will try to address your concerns - thanks for the excellent input!

*Sump plumbing - valves* - I'm on a budget, so have to re-use what I have. Otherwise, would be interesting to investigate why valves at the bottom work better. Having them up top makes them easy to adjust (visually see water flow in OF), and they look cool. 
*Sump inlet water level* - my goal was to maintain a constant water level in that area for the reason you mention - my current setup is affected by sump water flow, so tried to address this. What I'm hoping this does is cause that area to always be overflowing down to the drip tray, since everywhere else in the sump is lower. I didn't have two layers of filtration (large mech, fine mech) simply due to budget and I didn't consider it necessary.  If it is, let me know!
*Height above the sump for fish netting* - YUP, this is key in my stand design, and frankly my last sticking point...not sure how to address yet.
*The overflow design* - I agree with your points, but as stated, due to budget I have to do the internal coast-to-coast. It should only take up 3x5" of space...in a 72"-long tank...I can live with that.
*Refugium plumbing* - I agree with your points here, again, but I'm really not sure how I can still fit the 30G inside the stand while routing the drains into the far end of the sump.

So the two items I could use clarification on:

How to fit the refugium inside the stand, while getting the drains over to the far side of the sump?
Is fine mech filtering a 'must-have'?


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## pandacory

Fine mechanical is not necessary. I think for poret foam 20ppi is the standard for planted tanks, but don't quote me on that cause I've never personally used it. Right now I just use a course sponge lining my overflow weir and the disposable 2 sided filter floss that is blue on one side and white on the other. I don't think it would work for your flow path though. I hated the sponges I had from an lfs. They got grose quick and were hard to clean.

My gut reaction answer to the refugium answer is probably a bad one. 
Honestly I would probably ditch the refugium all together. If I was dead set on it, then I would use a sump large enough to use a more linear flow pattern with the refugium. Or limit it to what could be held in one tank.
Personal feelings aside, i think the design is almost there for your goals and materials. Having the refugium on it's own pump and overflow is a very flexible set up in case you change your mind about running it or need to isolate it from the display in the future.

The only change I am kind of insistant on is not linking the two tanks with drilled holes. The refugium the way you have it should be higher up and be draining down. You can accomplish this by lifting the tank a few inches, say so the top of the sump is in line with the bottom of the overflow box. You will also need to seal where it enters the sump. all the same rules apply to the refugium entry way as the display entry way. 

You could probably get away with what you have going, but the holes would have to be perfectly aligned between the two Or the tanks separated enough laterally to accomodate a flexible connection. use gravity to your advantage, save some floor space.

I am also a bit concerned with your proposed operating height. The tank should run lower than that if you are following good top off procedures (kill all pumps, allow tanks to drain then fill sump to top, turn on pumps, allow it to stabilize, now mark, this is your operating max). The drawing makes it seem like there won't be enough free volume to catch what will be skimmed off the display and refugium in a power outage.

The only other idea I had would introduce too many risks so we won't go there.

.02 $ woeth what you paid for it.


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## crazymittens

So to summarize, your concerns are:

Refugium drain as designed could lose CO2
Refugium should drain in the same place the display drains
Operating height in-sump might not account for power outages

I get why you don't want the refugium set up that way...but consider this:

Refugium drains via internal overflow box
Overflow box drains into sump as pictured
Once through mech filtration, the water spills into pump area
2/3 chance it gets picked up and sent to the main tank
Main tank drains through 'proper' channels

Is that not alleviating the issue? Will it really affect filtration that much? I would think having the refugium water cycle through the display is a good thing - more plants there.

I'll check into lifting the refugium, but as-is I barely have adequate working space under the stand, I do understand your point - and ideally I would not be drilling, so will work on alternatives. To get the proper drain plumbing, I'd have to raise it like 6"...

Good point about sealing that area, should I go that route.

Regarding enough *operating height in the sump* - I have tons. Main tank's overflow will only drain 1-2 gallons (off the top of my head, probably less), refugium's overflow even less. I could probably raise the water level by 4-5" and still be safe. I know this because my current overflow design is identical, but 2x the length, and it only loses 1-2 gallons in an outage (tested & verified). :icon_wink We good!


In other news, I saw the planted HOB thread and decided to look into incorporating it into the display tank's overflow... http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=170324


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## pandacory

Yes, seal where the refugium enters the sump. You may want to add another baffle so that the flow enters below the water line instead of from above, then seal from there back. Basically accomplishing the same thing as the bio section, but without the bio media.

And yes, do your best to lift the refugium so there is 0 risk of sump back washing the refugium. Otherwise you're dealing with a linked resevior with inhabitants. Not a bad thing, but won't be as flexible as the design intention seems to be.

When the pump stops the siphon clears the overflow box, and the entire surface of the tank to the height of the skimmed portion. So if your tank is 72x18 footprint and the water flowing over the weir is 1 inch thick, you will have 72x18x1=1296~5.6gal headed to your sump. Same applies to the refugium. You probably already knew that, but the post sounded like only the box would clear. Give yourself plenty of wiggle room. 1" is probably way overestimating, unless you are pushing a ton of flow.


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## crazymittens

Thanks, pandacory - I'll see what I can do about the refugium plumbing.

Good point about the weir/water level, but the weir today is only 1/4" - I expect the same on the new system (plumbing restrictions will make it worse, but it's half the width, so should end up the same).

In my power-down tests, the 30G sees a rise of ~1-2", whatever that volume works out to. 50G will probably be similar with my layout. There should be about 2-3x that amount available. I will, however, go back and actually calculate this - again, valid point.



Well, last night I filled the spare tank for water testing. Despite my thoughts that the top plastic ring did nothing, the middle bowed a fair bit, so I threw a clamp on it with very light pressure, just in case. Also tossed a little pump in there to keep water moving.

With the tank purchase came a few bags of some sort of biomedia...I went through this article ( http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?88677-Beginners-Guide-to-Filter-Media ) but it did not mention the type I have at home. This leads me to believe they are not media at all, but in fact just the stuff used for hydroponic gardening.

I did see those used here, however: Bogopolis journal

RobMc's sump has them in the drain area...I figure if nothing else I can add them in...better than just water taking up space. Further to this, I'll be revisiting the sump design, adding another baffle section, and ensuring the wet/dry area is a true wet/dry.


In other news, I made the mistake of researching fluidized bed filters (FBF). http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=179279 This has led me to wonder if even a small FBF could be used as a 'okay, stock levels are a bit ridiculous, release the FBF'. Not that I expect to require one...but very interesting nonetheless. Another link here: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_fbf.php

The Youtube guy, uraujoey (sp?), did a how-to on FBF a year ago or so, and DANG it looked so darn cool. He didn't do sand, I think K1, so slightly different principle...but it looked so awesome. Anyways...no budget right now, but good to know it's a functional piece of filtration tech.


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## pandacory

I also have interest in fbf for bio filtration! Mostly due to my being a total gear whore.

Check out the pond guru on youtube. He made a pretry simple one you could throw in the sump.

I thought it would be neat to do one in line in one of those house filter units like the in line co2 reactors are set up. Probably just an extra source of unnecessary flow loss and potential failure point.


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## crazymittens

Yeah, it would for sure have to be in-sump. Maybe next time...


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## crazymittens

Ok, we're already doing crazy, right? How's this for crazy...










Overcomplication? Check. Rube Goldberg-ness? Check. Any serious issues? You tell me.

You can see the change on the right, where the refugium drains into the sump. Water fills the first chamber, then flows up through the mech filter sponge, then DOWN AN INCLINED SPILLWAY - oh yeah that's right - onto the drip tray, thus maintaining flow through the biomedia.

The 'other' way would be routing the drains horizontally, but to be honest I'm not sure how the siphon would be maintained over 3 lateral feet of travel.

If my concerns about siphon vs. lateral travel are legit, I'm totally doing this. Haha!!! :bounce:


----------



## pandacory

Thats crazy talk...

1. Remove spillway
2. Add baffle so that refugium water enters pump chamber from below instead of from above
3. Quit while you're ahead:flick:


----------



## pandacory

Just to confuse things. This guy got a separate refugium to work with a single filter exactly how you had proposed.

Maybe not as crazy as I thought you were... 

http://www.melevsreef.com/acrylics/sumps/c/split_sump.html


----------



## crazymittens

No, still crazy, but a validated crazy. Like those guys that jump cars 300 feet...it's all math...but still crazy.

I did a little sketchup today on the stand...raising the refugium is gonna be next to impossible while still allowing access from the top.

Anyways...still have to research, but should be a simple question...how far laterally can siphon be maintained before collapsing? I guess in theory, siphon is siphon - no air...right?


----------



## crazymittens

Whee! Haha it looks pretty cool.









Finally found a use for outdated technical books...









Dumped in 5ml of ammonia to get things going - if they already weren't. The XP1 has been running for a month or so on the 20G-that-never-was. 20G, we hardly knew ye.

This is pretty awesome progress - if the fishless cycling goes quickly, we could have fish transferred and teardown started next week! Woot!



I'm still gleeful about the spillway. So ridiculous. Of course, the key point with that entire sketch is that the LID of the sump is doing all the sealing. You know, the lid that doesn't really exist right now. I may need to adjust my glass budget...


----------



## Phil Edwards

crazymittens said:


> Ok, we're already doing crazy, right? How's this for crazy...


*crazymittens*,

Observations/lessons learned from experience-

1. Thin sheets of foam (<3" thick) are a royal pain to work with. Trying to slide a thin sheet of foam into a tight space is no fun. It'll bunch up, and because it's a compressible material won't evenly fill the space intended. Thick blocks are a lot easier to manipulate and don't get clogged as easily. You'll be much better served in the long run by moving the whole filter chamber to the right a couple inches and using a 4-5" thick block of foam at the inlet of your wiers. It's a lot easier to get out and clean. 

If you want to get super fancy and use acrylic here you can avoid some problems and just use a brace-frame with a hollow middle for your first/left most baffle instead of a full sheet to hold the foam in and have a huge open area for water to flow through. That'll also increase input of well-oxygenated water through a greater volume of foam. 

If you want to get even fancier you can make an eggcrate housing for it that'll keep the foam in shape at all times. All you'll need do is pull the whole assembly out and hit it with a garden hose or tub spigot. Since it'll be physical filtration and not your main source of bio filtration cleaning it really well won't knock your bio back much. 

2. Make sure the top of all the baffles for the main drain are well below your sump's rim. This is especially important here since larger particles and dead leaves will make their way into your sump from this point. Because the point of entry (as currently designed) is at the bottom of the foam rather than the top, it WILL get clogged regardless of your best intentions; guaranteed. It's much better to have unfiltered water returning to the tank than flooding your floor. 


Murphy loves Rube Golberg. Better to plan on Life or Sh*% happening than leave it to luck. It's a lot of fun to think about and design stuff like this though, isn't it?


re: refugium return technical considerations-

1. I agree, ditch the spillway, it's extraneous and will just make access to the reservoir more difficult.

2. Ditch the whole baffle-foam assembly for the refugium return and route them to discharge into the DT return chamber. Routing it this way take advantage of the larger filter volume of the main chamber to re-filter the water. Plus, it will free up space in the reservoir for more water, use of thicker foam at the point of entry, and/or allow you to make the main filter chamber larger. Either way, it's a win/win(/win?). 


*pandacory*,

Thanks for the link to the in-tank weir thread. I'd forgotten about that design and think a modified approach would work very well for my tank. I'm sure *crazymittens* will be happy too since he's been lobbying me to do an external box for my drains.  Now to find glass shops and get quotes.



note: this post went through a lot of revisions. Cut and paste errors likely happened.


----------



## crazymittens

Phil, great input, thanks! FYI the glass quotes I got when I was getting lids cut were quite a bit lower than I was expecting - then again that was 1/8" glass. The edge polishing was only like another $5 for the whole order.


Okay, fine. No spillway. Spoilsports.  (I do agree, the simpler the better - as you say...fun)
The foam thickness thing makes complete sense, but I was trying to minimize the budget and re-use everything. 
That eggcrate idea...yup, I can subscribe to that. Very much getting into 'enough room under the stand' issues, though. Brace-frame - I could manage that, will look at it as a second option.
The baffles will leave ~1" of room in case of mech clogging, good to point out though!


So neither of you answered/addressed the question about siphon maintaining itself over lateral distances...  Guess it's off to google!


----------



## crazymittens

Hm...not much comes up. Guess I'll be guinea-pigging this in the garage during wet tests.


----------



## crazymittens

Red lotus moved into the 10G Walstad planter









Gah! What do I do with all these???









End of an era









Fish moved into their new home!










Pretty sure the fishies are okay, especially with the added driftwood/plants. No clue if those crypts will survive un-planting...there must be ~100 separate plants!! The jungle val, also...I read you can place them all between wet newspaper, keep in dark place for a week or so...?

The basement smells like a pond now...my wife is slightly displeased...but happy with progress. So we good.


----------



## crazymittens

Somewhat amazingly, during the sump disassembly I found not just one, but two shrampies! (amano) Incredible. Also, the platy baby is still alive, but proving insanely hard to capture. Will let the sediment settle and try again tomorrow.

Got an answer on the plants...so will be leaving them floating in the 20g. Thanks, WestHaven!

My next chore is separating the gravel/MTS. Will be thinking that through....probably just window screen and some water.


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, does this look familiar? http://www.breakspirit.com/125-gallon-aquarium-part2











Essentially a simpler version of what I've been planning. I'll probably forego the filter socks, but the theory is essentially what we've been discussing. The drains have to essentially reverse flow, so maybe the extra baffle is a good thing in my design.

In his Part1, the stand design is especially revealing about what's required for vertical bracing. Note the lack of center vertical braces! This is because he used 2x6 framing...and since I'll be using welded aluminum tubing, I think it'll hold at least as much as wood (probably a lot more).

More solid info on his design originating from here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1169964

The engineer in question from that thread states that 2x6 cross beams are sufficient for 125-150 gallon tanks (72" wide), just need the doubled-up 2x4s in the vertical department. Cool.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Dude, mix up all that MTS with the gravel, throw it in a rubbermaid, plant the Crypts in it, and do an emersed setup. 

If you're planning on using MTS in the big tank mixing it with gravel or Turface type materials 50/50 works REALLY well. 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## crazymittens

Emersed! Haha, it crossed my mind...but I have fishies to care for. They'll only put up with their cramped temporary home for a short while...

Interesting point about mixing...are you talking about mixing 50/50 (provides better prevention of anaerobic areas?), THEN topping with Flourite or whatever?

I need to recycle the Flourite as much as possible...the stuff is expensive!!


----------



## Phil Edwards

crazy....get another cheap plastic container just for plants not fishies.  

Yeah, I'm talking about mixing before capping. It helps minimize compaction and gives roots another place to adhere to.


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## crazymittens

Phil, is the plastic container so they'll survive a few weeks...or a permanent 'you need more gallons growing plants' kind of thing?


----------



## crazymittens

Lots of progress!

Tank and sump are outside, gravel/MTS filled an entire 5G pail, still need to sift that out. Annnd...one more thing.

Forgot how heavy the 50G was...yeesh.









Sump in retirement









Basement seems so empty and barren...









More views of the aluminum base

















Crap.











Do you see it? In my efforts to 'do it right', I forgot to remember that I like to change things. The bulkheads are glued to the drains, which means my entire drain stack is now pretty useless. 

Lemons, lemonade, something something
BUT. This now means I can revisit my drain design! Hopefully I will be able to convince my wonderful wife that this is a tragedy that cannot be left un-avenged. It also means the fishies are in for an extended stay in that temporary tank.


----------



## crazymittens

So fresh and so clean...









Spare parts










I thought about the external overflow, but a few issues:

Added cost/materials - already breaking the budget as-is
I have experience and existing parts for the internal overflow

A few changes to the drain design:

Siphon will use a 90, not a tee, then go straight into a ball valve
Secondary will have a regular tee so emergency siphon can be activated
Emergency will be a 90 as well
All will drain through 1.5" reinforced flex tubing
Overflow size will be as small as possible - enough to fit the drain plumbing.

More to come...


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## crazymittens

Ya, okay, after some more thought/review/research, it looks like the 'standard & accepted way' of doing the bulkhead route is glue and accept loss when it comes time to re-do things.

So I'd better not do this again anytime soon... 

The good news is that this new design should only cost an additional ~$100 or so. Last time PVC costs were ~$200+.

Primary siphon drain path

90-degree 1" MPTx 1.5" slip (street 90)
1.5" bulkhead through glass (FPT inside, slip outside)
1" pipe
1.5" slip to 1" slip reducer bushing
1.5" 90-degree elbow (slip x slip)
1.5" pipe
1.5" ball valve (slip x slip)
1.5" Spa-flex tubing
1.5" 45-degree elbow (slip x slip)
1.5" pipe into sump drain area

The 45-degree elbow will be attached to the top, keeping the sump sealed. The secondary will still use a 90, but with a hole drilled on top for the 1/8" siphon activation line. The emergency will be same as the primary with no ball valve. I have never used the secondary drain ball valve on the 50G, so no point in spending the extra $20.

Thought about the gate valve, looked up prices, but a single gate valve was $50+ after shipping, even on [Ebay Link Removed] So not this time.

Shrimparium change
No longer going to use the 30G sump as refugium...it just won't fit. Instead, going to use the 20G that's already set up, and will only be using two 3/4" drains.

As you can see below, 50G and 30G = looooong. 72.75" total, actually. Anyways, it just won't work.











Stand sketch, round 2









I added the front section for a few reasons. One, it is 2x4 construction, not the 2x6 used for structurally supporting the 125G, which means, two, I have extra overhead space for lighting and hands/arms.

The white sheeting is just 1/2" plywood for structural/racking support. The sump is actually sunk into the stand - no floor there - and will be on two 1/2" pieces of plywood, shimmed accordingly. The front will be 1/4" masonite or something - entire thing will be painted black. This is a budget stand, after all. My wife approves, although we'd both like something much nicer that involves trim and stain if we had the spare money.


Next steps:

 Find a local source for Spa-Flex
 Order the plumbing
 Finish cleaning the 125G
 Build the stand, paint
 Do a full assembly and water test in the garage


----------



## crazymittens

Plumbing ordered...

3x 90-degree elbows (1" MPT x 1.5" slip)
3x 1.5" bulkheads (1" FPT x 1" slip)
3x reducer bushings (1.5" slip x 1" slip)
3x 1.5" 90-degree elbows (slip x slip)
1x 1.5" ball valve (slip x slip)

Going tonight to check if the Depot carries Spa-Flex.

I already have the 45-degree elbows that I'll be using as the sump entry points. At this point I'm not concerned about plumbing the refugium because, due to budget and time, that is now considered 'optional'.

Procrastinating on tank cleanings...


----------



## Phil Edwards

Enough of the cartoons. Get some live action shots in there! aka, get this thing going!


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## crazymittens

Know what, Phil? Know what? FINE. Fine.

"Action shots"









My dropbox uploader is borked at the moment, so you'll have to live with that one picture for tonight. It has an un-changeable parameter that when you hit 25% battery, it refuses to upload until you charge. Apparently even that's not good enough tonight.


Stuff got done

Cleaned the tank. Ended up spending $7 on CLR only to discover that vinegar works fine...IF you use a scrubbie pad, and not blue shop towels. Rarr!!
I also cleaned the 50G sump and cut the piece of glass I'll be using to patch the Beananimal drains. Used old 30G lid finally came in handy... 
Didn't get to Home Depot, unfortunately...this weekend.
Oh, I also made this post, just for Phil.

The plumbing may even get here tomorrow, we'll see. If it does, I will do my best to get the 125G overflow/drains in order, maybe even drill. Also need to measure for the sump baffles and get them ordered, or maybe swing by the glass shop and hound them for cut-offs...


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, since I was having a devil of a time figuring out how my drain plumbing would work - more specifically what EXACT pieces I needed...here's how I eventually got my list.










I essentially drew boxes divided in thirds...center gets the part name and size, and each 'end' got slip/FPT/MPT. It worked for me...was way easier than trying to visualize and track each piece in my brain, and Sketchup just doesn't do this stuff justice.

Happy, Phil? I certainly hope so.


----------



## crazymittens

Sump cleaned and ready for patching









Glass cut for sump patch










More progress this weekend.


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## crazymittens

Notes for me...

Glass to cut

Sump drain area - upper - 17.5 x 18.25 x 1/4"
Sump drain area - lower - 17.5 x 18.25 x 1/4"
Sump drip tray - upright - 17.5 x 17.25 x 1/4"
Sump drip tray - tray - 17.5 x 15 x 1/4"(plexi)
Overflow - vertical - 17.5 x 5.5 x 3/8"
Overflow - lower - 17.5 x TBD x 3/8" (test fit plumbing)

The 3/8" is probably overkill, but it will at least look closer to a 'factory' install.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Woooo, thanks! I'm kind of at a bottleneck with my setup so I have to live vicariously through yours.


----------



## crazymittens

Woot...plumbing out for delivery today!!! Cannot say enough good things about aquariumsupplies.ca


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## crazymittens

Sorry Phil, setback today.

Plumbing arrived all right, but I KNEW something would go wrong. I ordered 1.5" bulkheads, which is good. But LAST time I ordered 1" bulkheads (Beananimal used 1" because that was what he had, so in my newbness I just copied his design to be safe). This design was going off of 1.5" plumbing... 1" bulkheads.

So instead of returning these and paying return shipping, I'll do it right and get the 2.5" hole saw bit.

1.5" drains compared to 1" is a HOOOOGE difference in person. I can kinda understand why Phil is cool with two. But here we are, and I'm doing 3. Might as well now that all the plumbing is purchased.


Anywho. Ya. Probably will be at least a week shipping.


----------



## crazymittens

Or 3 weeks. But it only cost me $10, so that's cool. Today going to test fit some of the plumbing so I have an idea how much Spa-flex I need, patch the sump (which might have ramifications on my baffle fitment), and finalize the stand BOM.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Yeah, I hear ya. 1.5" is a massive drain... Do you have enough space to drill out the holes, fit the bulkheads, and still have glass between them? I'd be concerned about the glass between the bulkheads being thin and breaking.


----------



## crazymittens

I'll have at least 2" between hole edges, so should be okay, but yeah...something I'll be researching. IIRC you need a minimum of 2" from edges, so I'd guess similar numbers between holes. 

I'm sure someone on reefcentral.com has done this for salt before, so will have some sort of functional confirmation.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I hope so. I'd hate to see all your planning go down the drain...no pun intended.


----------



## crazymittens

Some brief searching indicates 1.0-1.5x hole diameter = minimum distance from edges.

So for a 2.5" hole, 3.75" from the edge. That math = max 2 usable. If I go with 1.0x, there is exactly enough room. Pretty sure others have done this on 125G tanks before with no issues, but I'll keep looking around.

Because that part of the glass will no longer be holding up the full weight of the water, should be fine at 1.0x, eh?


----------



## crazymittens

Ah, 1.5x is overkill, it would seem. 1.0x diameter is the 'rule of thumb' according to reefcentral searches. Also, the thicker the glass, the safer you are. At any rate, I'll drill with the maximum possible distances in mind, i.e. not clustering them together in the middle.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397741


----------



## crazymittens

Silicone patches in place



























Ya, those ain't going anywhere, or leaking. Also have a BOM prepared for the stand. Tomorrow, measuring for the baffles.


----------



## cableguy69846

Really like the approach you are taking with the sump, and "fuge". I have seen tons of reef tanks setup like this, why not some fresh ones too? One question. I am sorry if you already said this, I must admit, I skimmed the thread this time, but I would like to know if you are going to run your display and "fuge" lights on opposite cycles? If so, why? If not, why? I have a hunch, but I am going to wait for an answer before I open my big mouth, just in case I am wrong. :hihi:

I am following along on this one, and can't wait to see this bad boy up and running.:thumbsup:


----------



## crazymittens

To be honest, haven't thought that far ahead. I suppose I'd keep things the same...so if I had to move fish/shrimp into the display, the adjustment period would be easier.

Do you know of any reason to do otherwise? (save me some searching!)


----------



## cableguy69846

crazymittens said:


> To be honest, haven't thought that far ahead. I suppose I'd keep things the same...so if I had to move fish/shrimp into the display, the adjustment period would be easier.
> 
> Do you know of any reason to do otherwise? (save me some searching!)


OK. Here goes. Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

As far as I know, plants "breath". During the day when the sun is shining, they take in Co2 and emit O2. At night, when it is dark, they take in O2 and emit Co2. So, if you had the "fuge" lights on at night when the display was dark, it would offset some of the Co2 emission into the display tank. It would not compensate entirely but it would help. (Most of this is speculation, but it should give you a narrower search field.) At least that is my understanding. I would also assume that plants will use the nitrates and all that only when they are "awake" during the day. So the "fuge" would also keep those values down at night. I would think to completely cancel each other out though, the "fuge" would have to be the same size as the display.

Please someone else chime in here and let me know if this is accurate, or a load of hogwash though. I don't want to give bad info. I am basing this on some stuff I have read in the past and off what others have told me. I would, however, think it would be the same concept as a fuge on a reef tank though.


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, I think I've run across that, too...somewhere. Makes sense, easy enough to do. Cool!


In other news, 'best practice' for physically separate refugium & sump is to gravity feed the fuge drain back into the sump. So no crazy 'through sump bulkheads' (even though technically that would be gravity fed). Just gonna raise it up on a 6" pedestal, plenty good enough.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2121735


----------



## cableguy69846

crazymittens said:


> Hm, I think I've run across that, too...somewhere. Makes sense, easy enough to do. Cool!
> 
> 
> In other news, 'best practice' for physically separate refugium & sump is to gravity feed the fuge drain back into the sump. So no crazy 'through sump bulkheads' (even though technically that would be gravity fed). Just gonna raise it up on a 6" pedestal, plenty good enough.
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2121735


OK, I think I can back this thinking up with a link.

http://druniverse.wsu.edu/?p=101

http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=826

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/students/scienceqa/archive/950912a.html

Those should help out a bit. As for the gravity drain on the "fuge", best way I have seen it done. The fewer moving parts in any system, the fewer things there are to go wrong. Just my $0.02. :thumbsup:


----------



## andyl9063

looks good man, i guess im not the only one with a big project lol


----------



## Phil Edwards

crazy,

Are you using a pH controller for your CO2, a timer, or just running it 24/7?

If you've got a controller an opposite light cycle for the fuge would be cool.


----------



## crazymittens

CO2? Haha, no CO2. Maybe one day when budget allows. Good point about CO2 and opposing light cycles, tho.


Hopefully get the stand built today. Woot.


----------



## crazymittens

Silicone patch almost cured

























Want proof you need to let it cure? I cut into the excess and the inside was still tacky. That was roughly 18 hours of sitting. Also note the bubbles - the large piece didn't get as much weight on it as I'd have liked - still fine for a patch.

Stand build

































Sketchup visualization









Acceptable execution


















Structurally, it's fine. Cosmetics...eh...we'll either be painting it flat black or covering it with masonite and painting flat black.  It is also really heavy. Like...probably ~100lbs. My back is not going to be pleased with me tomorrow.


Oh, and I was at Home Depot today and 100% forgot to check for Spa-Flex. Cool.


----------



## cableguy69846

That stand looks good man. The extra bit on the front in the last pic, is that going to face the front of the tank or the back? It would make a great shelf to hold tools while doing maintenance on the tank.

And one more question. Did you patch the holes with a piece of glass or acrylic? And what did you use as an adhesive?


----------



## crazymittens

That extra 4" is exactly that, a little shelf - but it adds the extra overhead room inside around the sump and whatnot as well.

Holes patched with a leftover lid - I think 3/16" glass. Adhesive - GE Silicone I


----------



## Phil Edwards

What version of Sketchup are you using? I think the one I've got is missing a couple useful features.


----------



## crazymittens

Whatever the latest is. What features are missing? Maybe you just don't have the full toolbar open...?


----------



## cableguy69846

crazymittens said:


> That extra 4" is exactly that, a little shelf - but it adds the extra overhead room inside around the sump and whatnot as well.
> 
> Holes patched with a leftover lid - I think 3/16" glass. Adhesive - GE Silicone I


Groovy. I was going to advise against using acrylic to patch the holes as it won't bond to the silicone. But no need to say it. 

Not a bad idea to make your sump fit. Too bad you are not plumbing it in the back of the tank. You could have ran all your pipes through the little shelf, and then made a cover for it.


----------



## crazymittens

My experience with acrylic for baffles was very positive, but I can see why it'd not be recommended for patches.

Plumbing might still be boxed in - the two long edges of the tank are viewing areas, so cannot do the plumbing there. I may do a light 1x2 frame around the plumbing at the end there, we'll see.


----------



## crazymittens

Ok, a few quick updates.


Tank and lids are cleaned (lids are good enough)
Did a water change (my first ever!) on the temporary tank. Whee
Added a powerhead and air stone to the 20G with all the plants
Did a ton of house tasks, thus freeing up time to work on the tank with a clear conscience and happy wife
Tomorrow, finalizing sump design/taking measurements


----------



## crazymittens

Bah...didn't get the sump stuff done. But I did pick up the melamine for skinning the stand. Going to start on that tonight.

Also, my dad has expressed interest in setting up a saltwater tank (he used to scuba dive), so getting into the research phase of that soon, too! Gotta get this done first... 


Edit: O ya! The hole saw showed up today! This weekend, drilling!


----------



## crazymittens

Ok, stand is almost done.

Left to do:

Cut holes for doors
Doors? D:
Cut top 'lid', decide on piano hinge or not
Set up PVC tubing for cable routing?
Trim (edges, bottom)
Paint -exterior? -interior (white)










And requisite shot of the $9.50 shipped drillbit.


----------



## cableguy69846

I think the stand looks good that color honestly. And as for the interior. You may want to calk the seams and paint it with a good waterproof paint. Any spills or leaks will be contained then.:icon_smil


----------



## Phil Edwards

Looking sweet crazy! Using PVC for wiring is a good thing. My old 225 stand was fully wired with DJ panels and PVC. It was so neat and kept everything dry and out of the way. If I ever have a tank with a nice stand again I'll definitely be doing it that way.


----------



## crazymittens

The colour is 100% up to my wife, but we'll probably end up leaving it white. Once the trim is on, you won't notice the little jaggies on the edge of the melamine. I think the next time I cut that stuff, will use duct tape instead of painters tape.

Where I'm really stymied is the doors...which you'll notice don't exist. I have all the hardware...hm, maybe I'll cut them out, then do some thick trim or something...might have to enlist help on that part. Never done doors before.

Yeah, I saw a bunch of reef tanks use conduit, looks super clean...and I have spare PVC sitting around, so why not?


----------



## crazymittens

Ok, white it is! Also, friend of mine came by to advise on the doors. I have a solution, just have to do it.

Essentially going to remove the melamine from the front, cut strips for the outer edges, then cut the large board down into 4 doors to fill the remaining space. A 2x4 or 2x6 will be used as a stile for the center. I have just enough cup hinges (recovered from some old/tossed furniture) and handles to get the job done. Said friend will also bring over some edge banding because anything less is pretty ghetto in his mind.

Oh yeah, also found a local pool store that should have some cutoffs of spa-flex I can take. Hopefully that pans out!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Good luck!


----------



## crazymittens

Ok, moar pics.

Ye olde drille presse
With 1" forstner bit for the cup hinges.









Adding the strips and stile

























Stile required some minor material removal









Yes, I will be keeping my day job









































Foam mat repurposed
Yay bandsaw making this task super quick!

































Preview of the trim











So everything is cut...here's what's next:

Trim strips of foam mat to fit
Paint trim pieces
Paint/caulk stand interior
Investigate conduit possibilities for wiring
Lower stand to floor, shim
Drill tank (set on end)
Place tank on stand, begin plumbing game!

Plumbing game will be a lot of fun.


Edit: Ya, I get it. The doors are not level. Why? Because I built the frame/carcass on my garage floor. Said floor is the antithesis of 'level' and 'smooth'. Also...first time. Mostly the floor's fault.


----------



## cableguy69846

crazymittens said:


> Edit: Ya, I get it. The doors are not level. Why? Because I built the frame/carcass on my garage floor. Said floor is the antithesis of 'level' and 'smooth'. Also...first time. Mostly the floor's fault.


There is a saying in the construction industry. 
"Always the tool, never the operator..... Unless the operator is a tool." :hihi:

You, sir, are no tool. That looks good to me. As for the gap in between the sets of doors, a scrap piece of the same material will take care of that.:wink:


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, very kind. However, for once I am glad for crappy cellphone pictures. It'll do the job, but lol it's really bad cabinetry. My carpenter buddy is going to have a field day.

Yeah, the real issue with those strips - not that I could think of a better method - is that you have to...hm...just thought of a fix. Essentially they are affixed by wood screws through the 2x4 frame. This was a rather awkward process, and I don't see it holding up over time. I think I'll do screws from the face side and then add some of those Ikea-esque vinyl screw caps.

Anyways...the hard part is done. Will be very glad when paint is done!


----------



## crazymittens

Well, some small progress today. Took most of the afternoon just cleaning up and putting away tools.




















Going out there shortly to decide if a 2nd coat is worth it. This is primer/sealer, so really just cosmetic beyond what I've done. Since there are no windows into the sump area, no point in making it perfect.

Also about to leave on vacation for 6 days, so was really hoping to have the stand off the blocks, onto shims, and maybe even have the tank drilled and mounted onto the stand. Hm. We'll see.


----------



## crazymittens

Hokey dinah. Water leak test commencing.

Tank on the new stand
You really get a good feel for how it'll look once it's downstairs once it's all put together.










Sumpy!
Sumpy. He fits. Just. Another 1" of width and he'd snug right in - as-is he must be dropped into place. Don't mind the 2x lumber, just temporary for plumbing fitment.










Side view, an idea of the ledge size
I think it's 2" wider than I'd envisioned...but a good and handy size nonetheless.










It begins...
At this point the stereo goes off and my hearing moves into paranoid mode. Also, I discovered that only the ends are being supported!!! The 2x6's apparently have a 1/32" bow in them (totally thought I had the crowns up... :S ).










So fresh and so clear...
Quite impressed with how clear everything is.










Groovy
...man.









Full!
No ominous creaking or cracks...so we'll go with that 1/32" gap will disappear once I get things onto the slab.












We're away this weekend, so hopefully it doesn't explode and ruin my garage. (haha, not like it could get much worse) Sunday evening when we're back I'll do the final measurements for the sump and overflow, Monday get the glass ordered, and then work on drilling/plumbing!

edit: My phone also got stolen/went missing whilst on vacation last week, so new iPhone camera pics for this post! I sense a noticeable improvement in IQ.


----------



## crazymittens

Tank hasn't cracked or exploded overnight...but that gap is still there. Guess that foam doesn't compress as much as I'd hoped. I'll be leaving it full until Sunday, then draining for drilling prep.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Looking good! Damn you for making faster progress than me. I'm going to have to get my butt in gear to get planted before you do.


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, well the goal is to have a fully functional plumbing system by end of next weekend...substrate/planting done by the following weekend. GL!

To be honest, I would not rush if all my plants/fish weren't sitting in limbo. So take your time!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Awww, way to deny my attempt at starting friendly back and forth smack-talk. I'm hurt. :icon_cry: I think I'm going to fill my tank with all the tears you're making me cry. 

Looking forward to seeing your system up and going.


----------



## crazymittens

Sorry, I'm Canadian and didn't want to cause unnecessary grief.

Also, let's be honest here, my system is pretty piddly compared to what you have in the works - you'd be doing yourself and everyone drooling after you a disservice by rushing.

TL;DR: I'm going to win this race. Sucka whut.


----------



## Phil Edwards

It's ok about being Canadian. Many important people in my life are from that esteemed nation. Plus, my favorite car ever, 2005 Monte Carlo SS, was made in Oshawa so that city has a place in my heart forever. 

Yeah, you may win the race but I'm gonna win the...uh, I'm not sure what I'll actually win. Higher hydro bills? More $$ forked out to stock the thing? Super wrinkly arms and hands from the hours needed to trim this beast? :frown: Maybe I need a smaller tank.  

Oh yeah. Big tanks get the girls. That's it. Yup. "Hey baby, wanna come back to my little house in the country and spend some time in my basement? I've got some AMAZING aquariums. Really. I promise. *cough* It puts the lotion on its back. *cough*"


----------



## crazymittens

I'll concede to that point. My wife wouldn't approve.

With a tank your size, I could get my son to go swimming for the plant trimming sessions! That's a bonus right there. Any tank that requires swimming trunks for maintenance is win.


----------



## Phil Edwards

What do I get if I add a snorkel to the swimming trunks?

Other than really wet...


----------



## crazymittens

Entry fees?


----------



## Phil Edwards

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Come see the crazy guy go swimming in his tank to trim plants! Watch him dodge fish trying to get up his shorts and nibble his sensitive bits! Hear him scream through a snorkel when a cory gets lodged up there! All for the low price of $5.00 per adult and $3.00 per child 12 years and under. 

:iamwithst


----------



## crazymittens

lol okay, moving on.

Tank still not leaking, so I'm going with 'let's get things moving'. Tonight, gotta get those baffles measured for the sump, and the overflow pieces measured. Tomorrow AM, order the glass.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Sweet! 

All I got accomplished this weekend was getting some light mounting 2x4 up and some styro blowtorched and a 1st coat of paint down. You're sailing past me so far that I'll never catch up. Looking forward to seeing your stuff put together!


----------



## crazymittens

After Phil's latest post demonstrated his leap in progress, I hauled myself out of sickbed and got the following done...

To-Done

Emptied the tank - no leaks!
Did a water change on the 30G temporary tank...was looking a bit yellow.
Drew/measured the centre points for drilling.
Drew/measured the overflow glass.
Pulled the sump out and did some drawring.
Eyed the spare 30G tank as sacrificial glass.

Glass BOM:

3/8 x 120mm
3/8 x 130mm
11.5 x 17"
15 x 17"

Sump overflow addendum
With what I have planned, the sump will offer ~13.5 gallons of overflow capacity. The weir capacity (at 40% more flow than I'm capable of) is something like 3 gallons. Overflow would hold, worst-case (completely full and emergency draining) another 3 gallons. Piping say a gallon. That means I'm still only at 50% capacity of the sump's possible overflow.

We good.

Measuring the drill points
I left a 2" gap between the three holes, and there's 70mm left over on either side. Holes will be 2" from the top of the glass to keep to the minimum safe distance while not taking up more room than necessary inside the display tank.










Overflow glass









Bulkhead trimming calcs
Yep, will be trimming 15mm off the ends of the bulkheads in an effort to keep the plumbing a bit less awkward.











Overflow into the sump









Sumpy!
No full sump shot, for some reason...but it'd be unintelligible anyways. The scrawled notes help my brain make sense of the measurements. Sometimes Sketchup can only get you so far.




















Next steps, take my glass BOM and call the glass shop. If the 3/8" glass is super expensive, I'm sacrificing the old sumpy to save on glass costs. Good thing I have some capability of glass cutting in-house!

I also need to get around to visiting the pool shop for the Spa-Flex. Srsly.

Oh...and get my neighbour to help dismount the display for drilling. Drilling holes vertically is really the only way. Kinda sad I can't use the drill press on this tank.

edit: Pretty sure that's $25 worth of pot scrubbies. Estimate that I'll need an additional $40 to fill that area. :S


----------



## crazymittens

Quick update...

Okay, yeah, I think we're gonna do the external/internal overflow.

Saves 4-5" of internal space, meaning I won't have the awkward bit underneath the C2C box (one item I really grew to dislike on the 50)
I'm losing the ~6" outside the tank anyways due to the plumbing.
The spare 30G is getting sacrificed since 1/4" glass will be plenty strong to deal with a few gallons of water.
Only requires me to purchase a tube of RTV106 (108?) silicone for some huge benefits.

We'll still have to do 3/8" glass inside, but now much less is required. Not certain if they'll be able to cut 3/8" glass to 1.25" wide...hm. 

Some threads of interest:

Showing that you don't need elbows for a Beananimal
Showing the use of holes instead of a cut weir
Another version using elbows

Will do some Sketchups and post soon.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Daaaang, looking all technical and scribbly. I like it.  That's the sort of thing I need to do when I set anything up. Invariably the paper I've got my notes on gets wet or ruined. Writing on the tank's a great idea.


----------



## rustbucket

Writing on tank is a good idea  I've been thinking of using it with aquascaping, give me an idea of what a big old slab of wood would look like taking up space.

That is an insane amount of scrubbies, I felt bad when I had to spend 5 bucks on mine. At least they hold up well though and its inevitable cheaper then "real" filter media. 

You're getting there:bounce: I have no patience at all. I set my tank up so quick I had to rip it all and start over a few months later, so patience is good if I could find someroud:


----------



## crazymittens

Plus, you feel like that dude from that math crime show whose title I cannot recall. He was Mister Universe in 'Serenity'. Anyways, my big hurdle right now is finding a local supplier for RTV108. And by finding, I mean not finding. Pretty sure I'll have to pay $25 to get a $5 tube of adhesive silicone. NAFTA garbage.

Hm...more searching indicates that SC1200 is RTV108's equal, and locally available! Still will be like $20 after shipping. Oh well. petsandponds.ca has it, if other Canadians are interested.

Before I order, I'm going to hack that aquarium apart and cut the pieces out. If that is successful, order the silicone adhesive and get cracking. (haha!)


----------



## crazymittens

Awwww yeeeaahhh
I kinda forgot to take more during pictures...you get the point. 'Easy' part done.




















Next steps are to design the overflow and create a BOM.

edit: This was a rather useless post...handy tip...put the razor blade in a pair of vice grips so your thumb and index finger don't sustain temporary/permanent nerve damage.


----------



## crazymittens

Quick sketches
Once past the bulkheads, plumbing resumes as planned. Might do an additional gusset or two in the middle (overkill, but pretty).




















The million dollar question...

I'm planning to use 1/4" glass to do the internal overflow. Too much pressure for the glass thickness? What if I brace it (vertical edges full brace, and one middle brace)?


----------



## crazymittens

Answered my own question. 0.25" glass is commonly used for internal overflows, and furthermore, if you think about the math, it'll be in roughly 6" of water, so ~25% of the tank height. 25% of 125 gallons is not really that much, so I should be fine even without the central brace I mentioned.

Tonight...glass cutting.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Careful, don't cut yourself.....any more than you already have. :biggrin:


----------



## crazymittens

Ya, turns out none of the edges were cleaned up when they built it (rightly so). I was carrying one with some bare glass and got some nice parallel papercuts on my palm. Going to wear gloves tonight!


----------



## Phil Edwards

I looked like I started cutting myself after finding out tank glass edges are sharp when removing top bracing on a tank one time. After that I've always worn stout leather gloves.


----------



## crazymittens

Well...some success.

Prepped and ready to cut
More drawring on glass. Second pic, note my beautiful glass cutter. It also has a 1" level, corkscrew, screwdriver/glass cutter (yes that's right), among other weird bits.



















Moving on
Nothing to see here but a nicely drilled hole. It's a trick of the light...that piece is actually a complete rectangle.










See?!









Ok I lied
My glass cutter is super unreliable and a multi-tool piece of junk, unfortunately. I would say worse, but my mother might be viewing. Hi, ma.

So, turn lemons into lemonade. Y'all want to know how much pressure that hole could take before breaking? Pretty much my body weight on the far end, with the hole half on/half off the those black strips. Engineering stealth edit: I weigh ~190lbs, so figure I applied a bare minimum of 100lbs at a distance of ~12" from the thinnest portion of the glass.











One final note...glass is 3/16, not 1/4...but the 50G sump is only 3/16 and it can take 50 gallons...so this will be plenty thick enough. I'll add some extra gussets just in case.

Ok last note...the plumbing will need to be secured VERY well to prevent the bulkheads from being torqued, thus snapping the glass. Unlikely since I'm using Spa-Flex...but there you go.


----------



## crazymittens

More research (thank you stained glass people) indicates that with very smooth glass you don't need oil, and the appropriate amount of pressure is 4-7lbs. I'll try again tonight, see how it goes.

Good video for those of you who need to see it being done to complete the learning...





Best tip from that is using the scoring at each edge as a marking device! Also pretty sure that my cutters are messed, because I was not able to get a consistent 'silk ripping noise' in one go.


----------



## crazymittens

Mister Barr's take on sump design: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4255-Picture-Schematic-of-Tom-s-180-Gallon-Starphire?p=25025#post25025

Very close to what I want to do: http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/10438-Sump-mods-for-CO2-effeciency?p=86476#post86476

Can't seem to find any better pictures/diagrams of it, though.


----------



## crazymittens

Ta-daaa!!










Hahahaha, I kill myself!!

Hm. Bad pun. Inappropriate. Anyways...The lesson is that glass cutting is not all roses and daisies. I would say at this point that it's 99% technique, 1% tools.

So I built this
But it was too tall along the 'cut' side (glass cutter not holding straight up).


















I junked that thing I built
And just used this with a LOT of downward pressure...otherwise the straight-edge wobbled all over (smooth glass and all).










Ta-daa!









So I did finally kinda sorta get the hang of it. The cut needs to be ...not fast...but confident. One smooth stroke and it works out pretty nicely.

Tomorrow night I attempt to cut actual pieces (and not destroy them). Oh yeah...the bottom of that 30G? Tempered. Took me a good 10 minutes to wonder why the heck it wouldn't snap...then I moved my eyes to the label: 'Tempered' :icon_roll


----------



## Phil Edwards

Tempered? Good thing it didn't shatter on you! Glad to see you've got the hang of cutting glass. I'm thinking I need to give that a go myself rather than wait and wait and wait trying to find a place to cut the glass I've got. Looking forward to seeing all your stuff come together. :thumbsup:


----------



## crazymittens

Ha, all I can say is plenty of practice cuts are recommended. So far I've destroyed both end panels of the tank, only the large panels left.


----------



## thelub

Looks like you learn like I do! Trial and error. Seems sometimes more error than success. But there's nothing more satisfying than that sharp little 'pop' of a clean break.

I always lose the score marks when I score the edge of the glass. To mark my break line I use a ultra fine tip sharpie. 

A straight edge with a foam rubber back is the best way to guide your pen and score tool. You want to break the glass over a nice clean edge for the best results. 

Too much pressure on your scoring tool into the glass makes for a dirty break too. 

And don't forget to knock the backside of the score. You can actually see the glass separating when you knock it.


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, thelub. Ya that knock trick is awesome - the video I posted earlier demonstrated that nicely. Hopefully more progress this weekend. In the space of a week I suddenly have 2-3 additional clients to support, along with my day job, and family life, so it could be a week before all the pieces are cut.


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## AHP

Man I am subscribing to this... Also ways nice to see a build, keep up the great work.


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## BruceF

I thought this was a good drilling method. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4128058&postcount=6


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## crazymittens

Thanks, guys. BruceF, I saw that in my search engine adventures. Unfortunately it's a very messy way of drilling. I prefer the 'plumber's putty dam' method myself.

Very surprising to see so many people using their LiIon-powered drills for this stuff...I'll definitely be using my old electric hand drill since I can't use the drill press.


----------



## BruceF

Your glass would be thicker then the 10g. But how do you keep it all steady without the drill press?


----------



## crazymittens

Once you get the hole started, no longer an issue. To get it started nicely is another issue. Hm. I'll get back to you on this.


----------



## crazymittens

From drawring









To life!









And the leftovers of a 30G tank.










Super duper! Glass is cut, so ordering the silicone adhesive shortly.

You know what this means? My next step is drilling the tank! Very exciting, except BruceF had to go rain on my parade and point out that getting a handheld drill started without a jig is nigh impossible.

We'll figure something out.

The best part about this is a) external overflow is a go, and b) this was a huge mental block for me, and is no longer an issue. Now just to overcome the mental block about stopping by the pool shop for Spa-Flex... :S


Anywho...next up, get the tank fully drained, then get my neighbour over to help me dismount it.

Wheeee!!! :biggrin:

Oh yeah...and as I have a pile of unforseen contracts on the go, I may be able to swing a proper lighting system...or a silent pump. That's a biiiig maybe though. Actually I have yet to even consider broaching the idea with SWMBO.


----------



## crazymittens

Big progress today, thanks in no small part to my wife being very generous and allowing me to stay outside longer than I should.

External overflow progress!!!
Yeeeaaaah!!!











Theory#1, wherein I forget about the secondary thingy needing the ability to become a siphon.




















This is how I made the secondary siphon work. Bandsaw!! Red dot is where the 1/4" siphon activator is going.



















New sump design
Sat down for a few minutes and thought through the maintenance process based on my experience so far...and nuked the design. This should work just fine AND mean a bare minimum of glass cutting required.




























Sump fabrication
And concept brought to life. I decided to forego 'pretty' siliconing due to the sump being hidden. Also it's hard to do nicely and I was rushing.





















Next steps...get my buddy to help with the tank dismount...and make a jig for drilling the tank!!!!


----------



## thelub

Using a wood block with a hole drilled the same size as your bulk head hold works wonders for a jig. I bought one of those cheap suction cup chinese "hole guides" and the block of wood with a hole in it works way better. Starting the hole off at an angle will keep your drill from bouncing around, but that is pretty much negated when you use the block guide idea.


----------



## crazymittens

But then I couldn't do this...





































Final result











That's right, party people, we are DONE drilling the tank! My buddy and his wife were over this weekend, I showed him the progress so far. He was far too curious about the whole 'tank/glass drilling' thing, so volunteered/helped solve the drilling issue.

Glad I had his help - cast iron is heavy!

Anyways...now I get Spa-Flex, wait for adhesive to arrive, and in the mean time finish up sumpy.

Sump to-do:

Build drip tray
Drill lids
Cut PVC for pump to bulkheads
Get more pot scrubbies


----------



## thelub

Nice. It always helps to have friends with good tools


----------



## BruceF

How many points for hitting the bucket?


----------



## crazymittens

Hahaha, the bucket was intended as a failsafe for the duct tape, but ended up being a nice place to drain the coolant. The wet paper towels made a nice 'TUMP' noise when tossed into the bucket from six feet up.

Surprisingly, as ghetto and 'Darwin award-winning' as this looks to be...since the drill press has very little mechanical vibration while running it was reasonably stable.

Not so stable that'd I'd leave it up there longer than necessary...haha, but did the job.


----------



## crazymittens

One item I'm not certain about is the return plumbing. My initial plan was to have the return plumbing run up the opposite side from the drains...but after building the stand, that'll be difficult/awkward to do.

I think this is how I'll run it instead:

Pumps
Solid 3/4" PVC (not glued)
Bulkhead in glass lid
90-degree elbow
Flex line or solid
This runs back out near the drains, up past the overflow, then allll the way down to the other end of the tank.

Probably going to do solid PVC to keep costs down, reliability up.


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, and brainwave about the 20G shrimparium...I already have a Rena XP1 - will just use that instead of plumbing the 20G into the sump. No costs incurred this way! Plus, this tank can act as a QT! Win-win.

Also, definately doing solid 3/4" returns...50% the cost per-foot compared to vinyl.


----------



## crazymittens

Checked the sump last night, panels are SOLID. So there you go...even if you have 3/16" gap on either side of the panel, enough silicone will still get the job done! 

Sanded down the edges of the tank holes.









And drilled for the siphon activator










I need to pick up the return plumbing bits this week (3x 10', connectors), and get a threaded adapter for the emergency bulkhead. If they have clear primer...will probably splurge on that, too. Save me painting stuff black.


----------



## crazymittens

Dang, check this sump out: 




It is a reef tank, but still...awesome plumbing job.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Oh my, that sump is gorgeous....


----------



## fishyboy

^ One of my builds is very closes to that with some tweaks, only in glass. Works great


----------



## AHP

Nice job this weekend!


----------



## crazymittens

Tx, AHP. Very exciting...depending on how this week goes, could have plumbing tests this weekend!

I've seen the design before, but almost all sump designs seem to revolve around using filter socks. Not a huge deal, but I found they required much more attention due to clogs. I get the water polishing thing, just found it to require a lot more effort.


----------



## crazymittens

Why is it that every time I've been to Lowe's for PVC, they are out of 3/4" 90-degree elbows? Haha, it's kinda funny. Picked up the return stuff...I have had an idea...

That being, send ONE return line instead of two. I had to get a tee, so the more powerful pump will go straight through, the less powerful pump will have to deal with a 90-degree tee. I know, a y-adapter is best, but we take what we can get. This part of the plumbing will be in-sump and not glued, so easy enough to change in future.

When it enters the tank, the flow will be distributed via a spraybar or something.

Reason for the change...I've been considering moving to one pump (one better pump) in future, and I would like to limit how much plumbing I have to run across the top of the tank.

Anyways...going to try and finish the sump tonight.


----------



## crazymittens

Hoh boy. Sump is 95% done!









What's left?

Cut/fit the center drip tray stand (pvc)
Drill sump lid for bulkhead
Cut/fit lid for drains
Buy more pot scrubbies

Do those plexi stand bits/drip trays look familiar? Recycled from old sumpy!

















Egg crate recycled from bottom of old display tank
This will keep the pot scrubbies in their place, since they be floaters. 10.5" tall. I'll probably do something like...tie a bunch of them into 'pillars' with fishing line. Those will sit along the edge of this screen, hopefully preventing any floaters from getting by.











This is what we'll do to keep to a single return pipe
Whoa, HDR freaked out with the lighting. 

You get the idea about using the tee. I know it's not great for flow, but it'll do for now. None of the joints inside the sump will get glue - for this simple reason: No way to easily (cheaply) change over to a proper Y-adapter and sump access would become a nightmare.

Note about flow: These two pumps will pretty much be maxing out the flow of 3/4" pvc. With all the bends and runs, the two should get max flow and not much more anyways.

In future we'd upgrade the pump and all return plumbing to 1".










And out the stand, up over the tank
Bottom three pieces get us outside the stand and going vertical, top two pieces get us past the external overflow box and onto the long horizontal run to tank entry point.










An idea of what I'm mumbling about










Use a bulkhead at tank entry point?









Or just cut a hole to fit this?
(3/4 to 1" bushing -> 1" street elbow -> 1" 90-degree elbow)









Pew pew pew!










Sump pumps!










Overflow plumbing almost there
That's the theory, anyways. I'll be teflon-taping the threaded joints to ensure no siphon issues, but no glue otherwise (well, the full water test will tell the tale). Depending on how overflow water levels do, I may be able to do away with the emergency pipe extension (i.e. the threaded adapter will do the trick).











Other notes

The adhesive shipped, should be here tomorrow. This means tomorrow night is overflow box assembly! :icon_eek:
Will wait until everything is together before I buy the Spa-Flex.
Still have to create an entry point into the stand for plumbing. That'll wait.

Edit: Just realized something...so far, the sump has cost me ZERO dollars!! All recycled/leftover bits! Cool! Oh wait...a glass cutter. $6.


----------



## crazymittens

I ran the proposed config through RC's nifty head loss calculator (http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator) and it looks like we'll only be getting something like 600GPH net.

To resolve this, there are a few options...

Add two light-duty powerheads to ensure proper circulation inside the display tank ($60-70 total, unless I can clean up the ones I have - prev. used in SW tank)
Replace the ghetto 'two-pump-return' with a proper single pump (DC variable BLING) ($200-250 total)

I'm thinking that a cleanup effort on the two Koralias probably has the highest WAF. 


So tonight's tasks:

Build overflow box!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Dang boy, that's looking awesome! Seriously, I really like what you've done so far. As for the tank return, don't cut a hole. It'll make things a little more difficult to access quickly should the need arise.


----------



## crazymittens

Tanks! (haha!)

Yeah, after playing around some more, seems like a bad idea to use the bulkhead here. Once everything is up and running (well, testing), I'll start to play around with spraybar ideas to divert the flow across both long panes of the tank.


----------



## crazymittens

More research, better idea. One or two Koralias toward the bottom of the tank at the overflow end. Leave the return as-is, pointed diagonal across the top of the tank.

This should allow a nice circular pattern - Koralias ensuring that the bottom water gets sent across and picked up by the return flow, which then sends it back across the top and out the overflow.

As a side benefit, it means I still get to keep all intrusive plumbing/wiring at the overflow end, so it's an aesthetic win.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I'm going to be using either a Korallia 4 or EcoTech VorTech MP40w on my tank, so a pair of Korallias on your system should work.  You may find that the pump is better placed near the top, or higher up in the tank, as they have significant draw that could disturb your substrate. Also, if you plan to have any hardscaping materials, there's a good chance you'll get some eddy induced excavation on the flow side. I did a flow test with the MP40s (on 100%, granted) in the reef I'm setting up and got SIGNIFICANT displacement...down to the glass, around some of the rocks.


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, good points about 'eddy induced excavation'. That's a nice term.

I picked up the Spa-Flex today - $2.90/ft!!! Ouch. Hope I mentally measured correctly. (mistake#1) Unfortunately Canadapost's delivery dates were super-wrong, delivery is actually the 3rd now, so box building won't happen until Thurs/Fri.

This means, however, that I can go dig those Koralias out, see what's what. Maybe even go out and see some friends tonight. WEIRD.


----------



## crazymittens

Friends overrode tank stuff, and it was good - I need to get out and see them more than once every quarter.


I did get a little tank stuff done - drip tray is siliconed in place (spot decision), and drilled the bulkhead hole for the returns. If Dropbox wasn't so anal about battery life, I'd have even posted pictures.


----------



## crazymittens

BTW, Phil, this should help your sump planning...wished I had it when I was doing mine! http://extensions.sketchup.com/en/content/3skeng-pipe


----------



## mnellis3023

nice build thread, and you were right....this is pretty similar to mine! 
One thing I would suggest. The standard 3/4'' tee that you are using for the return pumps could case increased head pressure due to the two pumps competing with each other. I would suggest looking for a sweeping tee which is sometimes called a street tee. This will allow the second pump to place its flow inline with the primary. This should eliminate some back pressure and head lose. See the picture attached, you would reverse it from what the pictures is showing


----------



## crazymittens

Brief update pics...

Bulkhead drilled









Drip tray siliconed in place










Still debating if the lip at the edge of the drip tray is a necessity...I suppose it'll add vertical /horizontal strength if nothing else so I can get rid of the central support. Ya, okay fine.
Had a brainwave about the drains last night - I'll cut out a section of the lid to be plexiglas, then cut out holes to exactly fit 1.5" PVC. Alternatively, cut the glass using my Dremel...hm. Ya, that.


----------



## crazymittens

mnellis3023, I looked and looked - nothing. Would have to be ordered off the internet, and I just don't care that much about the issue to pay $15 shipping for a $2 part. 

Finding those in 2", or even 1.5" was not an issue...in 1" or 3/4"...non-existent at the big box stores.


----------



## mnellis3023

crazymittens said:


> mnellis3023, I looked and looked - nothing. Would have to be ordered off the internet, and I just don't care that much about the issue to pay $15 shipping for a $2 part.
> 
> Finding those in 2", or even 1.5" was not an issue...in 1" or 3/4"...non-existent at the big box stores.


That sucks! They are pretty easy to find here


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, I'm SUPER jelly of you US residents and your epic online shopping options. Super jelly. Also slightly bitter about how hosed Canada got with NAFTA...but I digress.

If the flow is really that awful, I'd rather put the money toward a quality pump. I saw a number of nice units for sale on the local aquaria forum.


----------



## crazymittens

Awwwwww yeeeeaaahhh
Progress thus far. Oh, something came early in the mail. I used it tonight.











Layout post-cleaning
I spent a good hour making sure ALL the old silicone was removed.










Duct tape to hold things together during caulking









Clampies
You can never have enough clampies. Whoever says otherwise...stop listening to them.










Edge came out aight









This corner chipped ever so slightly...but it'll never be underwater, so whatevs.









Made QUADRUPLY sure this side was perfectly square
The tank side, don't you know.









Threw together the internal overflow while I was at it
This'll actually just get regular old silicone on the inside. With the bracing, it'll never ever ever move.



















Drum roll. Please.

Floating pipes???









WAT









An hour with this and a dremel at 25000RPM. My wrist is displeased.









SUMP. DONE.











So...wow. The sump is ready. And I still managed to keep it fully sealed!! Super happy.


Oh, and overflow box will 100% be done this weekend.

Which means plumbing is right behind.


A few items on my 'wat' list:

External overflow lid??!
Entry point into the stand for plumbing!?
How to nicely anchor return/drains so no breaky-breaky!?
Blinging out under the stand


----------



## ua hua

Everything is looking good but I have to ask, why you are going to run 2 pumps with only one return? Merging two return pumps to a single return line will result in the pumps resisting the pressure of the other pump from back pressure. I have heard of a few people doing this on their reef tanks but they always used a true "y" fitting that was at least 2x the size of the returns on their pumps. For example if your return on your pump is 3/4" your should use 1.5" plumbing. I can't tell the size of your return plumbing but I would try to find a different way to connect them if you plan on running them on the same return line. Or maybe you plan to get just a single larger pump in the future but just thought I would give my opinion on what I have seen others that tried this do.


----------



## crazymittens

I do appreciate the concern. It's probably never been stated, but this is a budget build. I already had the two return pumps on the old 50G system, and wanted something similar flow-wise on this new tank.

Due to the nature of 'budget build', and the supply of PVC fittings at my local box stores, I had to go with a ghetto connection. It's as simple as that.

In future I would love to upgrade to a single quiet-but-more-powerful pump, so having a single return line means no wasted additional cost up front - even if this means sub-optimal flow for the mean time.

Cool beans?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Booyeah! That's awesome work Crazy. Your handiwork has inspired me, in part, to try cutting glass and making my own overflow rather than keep trying to get the glass into a store that closes stupidly early to get it cut. Wish me luck and hope that the glass is the only thing that gets cut.

You're getting so close I can taste it! Keep up the good work my friend.


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, thanks Phil! For sure cut the glass yourself, be sure to wear goggles for cutting the edge end marks and the actual breaking of the glass. If you practice to get the feel of a clean cut, it's SUPER easy to get right. A belt sander does help correct mistakes! I used garden gloves when doing the actual breaking, but never had any reason to worry about cuts.



So, 24-48 hours cure time for SCS1200...I think we're going to attach the box tonight, folks! The clamping jig I have in mind should mean zero pressure on the existing joints, so no worries about disturbing the cure.

So what's left...?

Attach overflows :icon_eek: (full 48-hour curing period)
Move sump into working position, shim to level
Measure/cut out/prettify plumbing entrance/exit
Measure/cut return/drain lines
Sump pot scrubbies!
Sump mech filter pad...solution? (currently 3" short on existing pad)
Water test!?!?!
Under-cabinet lighting/wire prettification/electrical
Clean Koralia pumps

I think my brain can start thinking about the dirt/aquascape now!

Need to sift out old MTS/gravel
Wash gravel
Mix final batch of MTS
Get new driftwood?
Get new rocks?


Aside from that stuff...the shrimparium is self-contained, so nothing to do there except build up the platform (can be done at a later date).

The plumbing will only get glue where absolutely required to do the water test - namely bulkhead to spa-flex. I definitely want the ability to disconnect as much as possible when moving the whole contraption downstairs. One lesson I learned from the old tank (well, understood better), was that you have to destroy the plumbing to get everything apart. Literally destroy. Why? Because of slip fittings. Why not use threaded fittings? Because they are much more prone to leaks. A properly glued slip fitting has zero chance of leaking from the joint.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Slip fittings are why one should invest heavily in unions and true union valves. They make taking hard plumbing apart a cinch. Then again, they're also quite expensive. Pick and choose, eh?


----------



## crazymittens

Put a bulkhead through a hole in the glass, then attach a union. Now get it out of the tank. 

Only way to do is to break the glass, or destroy the bulkhead. If there is a proper way that allows you to re-use the bulkhead, please enlighten me!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Get a razor blade and cut the silicone you used to seal it. I've done that quite a few times. The trick is to use a fine bead of silicone around the edges of the bulkhead where it's easy to slice into. Even if you're not able to fully slice through the silicone it's often enough to weaken it enough that hand torquing/twisting is all that's needed to separate the rest.


----------



## crazymittens

Silicone? ... Sorry not following. Plumbing looks like this:


Bulkhead (tank side)
gasket
glass
bulkhead (exterior side, threaded for bulkhead nut)
straight piece of PVC into bulkhead slip fitting
union with slip fitting

If the slip fittings are glued, there is absolutely zero way to get it undone without cutting PVC out.

I'm thinking just leave a bunch of extra straight PVC between the bulkhead and union is the best way to avoid this scenario.


----------



## crazymittens

ALL GLASS IN!
A very productive and very satisfying 2 hours.



















Liberal use of shims and 2x lumber scrap


















Internal going in


















Gives you an idea of weir placement









Braces
This will hold mostly via friction/adhesion from the silicone.










Matching scribbles, check









Up periscope!
Dremel got another workout.










Yarr...sump ahoy
I'll be taking one of the caps, cutting a slot in the side, then attaching to the open end of that periscope.

Need more pot scrubbies.











External overflow w. bracing attached & clamped
Internal overflow attached
Sump wiring issue resolved
Sump pot scrubbies installed (har)

Doesn't sound like much...but this takes us so much closer. This is the death knell of the fabrication process...sad...but exciting. *moseys off to find those Koralias...*


----------



## crazymittens

I checked the Koralias last night, one sounded dead (no noise when on), the other sounded seized (motor hum, no flow), so I left them in a tub of water/vinegar. Hopefully they just need a good cleaning.


----------



## BruceF

I am kind of new to all this but why glue the joints at all?


----------



## crazymittens

Scenario for you, since you're new to this. This is worst case, but there is no such thing as a 'good' in-home flood. It starts at bad, and just gets worse.


You don't glue your drains.
Tank is running, and your cuts/joints are perfection itself, so magically no leaks.
You leave on vacation.
A joint works itself loose because you changed the pump recently or vibration finally taking its toll.
Your primary drain suddenly is evacuating the contents of the tank into your living space.
The return pumps drain the sump, and you've now got 30+ gallons of water on the floor in the space of 15-20 minutes.
Oh, and your heater and return pumps are fried now.
And your fish will probably not do too well, either.

Glue/primer would have cost you $10, and say $50 in plumbing you have to toss during the next tank tear-down.

A lot of water on the floor & ruined equipment & dead fish, or $10 in glue?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Crazy,

That's looking VERY nice. You should be proud of yourself my friend! 

When I install bulkheads I typically run a small bead of silicone on the side that doesn't get the gasket. For me that's usually the female side and is a little insurance because I don't trust those gaskets to seal. When it comes time to remove the bulkhead I jam a razor blade in there and run it around (and around and around as needed) to cut up the silicone. Oh yeah, by then I've already removed as much of the plumbing as possible and have loosened the nut on the other side of the glass. Often the razor blade is enough to weaken the seal enough to remove the bulkhead by hand. Sometimes it requires the assistance of a wrench to get enough torque though and is one reason I leave a couple inches of pipe between bulkheads and any union I use. I've never broken glass doing it this way; probably because I don't use a lot of silicone. I'll be sealing a few bulkheads on the reef tank soon and will post up pics of the bead, if you can wait.


----------



## BruceF

Well yeah I haven’t thought about that but aren’t you just water testing a set up you still have to move?


----------



## crazymittens

Bruce: Sorry, I misunderstood your point. Yes, no glue while I'm water testing, unless I get huge leaks. Either way not an issue in this case.

Thanks, Phil. Re: bulkheads: I totally get what you're saying...I think my wording is confused. I'll take some pics this weekend of what I'm taking about to clear things up.

I am thinking that I'll have to spend at least $80-100 on T5HO bulbs for my 36" fixtures...so why not put that towards LEDs? It'll be $80 a year anyways to keep the bulbs fresh. The problem...it's $500 for a 72" fixture or $550 for two 36" fixtures (from buildmyled.com). That has low WAF, at least with initial cost.


----------



## Phil Edwards

WAF? Wife Anger Factor?


No, it wasn't your wording that was confused, it was me getting mixed up. I've had similar problems in the past and my solutions to the union issue are these:

1- Put the male threaded end in the tank/sump so you can just slide it out when the time comes.

2- If #1 isn't practical, put at least an inch of pipe between the bulkhead and union. That way, if you need to, you can cut the PVC and re-attach later with a slip/slip coupling.


----------



## crazymittens

Bwahaha, no wife acceptance factor. To be fair/honest, she's fully supported and endorsed the efforts, so it's not very nice of me to use degrading terms like that. Shame on me.

The real issue is financial - the contracts I'm doing on the side would be where the funds would come from. Is a $500 LED fixture really something I 'need'? 

Would it make more sense as a long-term item? Yes, long term it will be cheaper. Do we have the luxury of spending $500 on something that will save us money later with money we could probably use for savings now? Question mark.

Anyways, ROI of 4-5 years isn't great, but not awful either. Although, more research indicates a savings of ~$75-100 in energy costs per year, plus $80 in bulbs per year...so maybe best-case an ROI of 2-3 years. That's acceptable. Cannot recall if dimming an LED = less power consumption... (googling indicates yes). So 2-3 years is reasonable. Hm.


----------



## fishyboy

-Wife acceptance factor


----------



## crazymittens

Quick update

















Minor bubbling on the inside overflow. No biggie.









Cutting the drain entry points


















Sump has more pot scrubbies!









Starting plumbing










Well, one thing is for sure...Spa-Flex has a very large minimum bend radius! Next step is a SOLID bracket to hold them against their will. Aside from that, looking good!

Oh yeah, and the 2nd Koralia started working after the soak and disassembly/cleaning. They are a bit noisy, though; like a random rattle. We'll see - I left them both on inside the water/vinegar bucket.


Tomorrow is the Ride for Refuge, so if I don't die from the exertion, another update to come tomorrow night.


----------



## crazymittens

So we did a plumbing test today! The sump works great, external overflow has zero leaks, and the return appears to push a decent amount of water. Notes below, pictures below that.

Notes

The internal overflow was leaking from the two bottom corners - I suspected this might happen
Plumbing theory was good, but some minor design issues with the secondary/primary siphon heights (noisy waterfall)
Sump cover where the drains sit needs revision from two perspectives: structural and maintenance
The block holding the Spa-Flex needs some nice routing and painting
Not super-happy with how the returns seem 'tacked on', but it'll be pretty much hidden
The secondary siphon activator works like a charm, so that's good.
Drip tray works AWESOME, very little water coming off the end, most is going through the drip holes
Installed the Koralias, will test once the silicone dries

Pictures

















































































Fixes & to-do

Fix#1: Added another bead of silicone along the bottom of the internal overflow
Fix#2: Re-created the secondary siphon to use slip fittings
Need to buy another two more thread->slip adapters to extend primary and emergency drains
Gotta figure out that sump lid before we move things downstairs
Not sure how to anchor the return PVC along the top of the tank nicely


----------



## crazymittens

Forgot a few pictures...and a video!!!

Hm, well video will come once YouTube renders it. 

Sample idea of new secondary

















Koralias in place, v1


----------



## crazymittens

Ookay, YouTube render complete...video available up to 1080p!

Guess embedding is disabled (or not?), so here's the link: 




Enjoy! Again, this was filmed prior to fixing stuff, so this is the original plumbing design. It works, just a little noisy.


----------



## BruceF

Looking good.


----------



## crazymittens

Thought I'd linked this in a previous post, but apparently not. This is the CAD I was basing my overflow design off of: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=20851580&postcount=5202

The reason why my first version was noisy is due to my plumbing being so low - because I'd customized the pipes, I technically could have done a shallower external box.

Anyways...second version should resolve the waterfall effect and render the system silent once more.


----------



## AHP

If you are looking at lights you might want to look at buildmyled.com, you can build what you want or pick something that works for your setup. 

I have one and love it.


----------



## tattooedfool83

Looks great. Did I miss it or was it not explained why the return line goes under the tank and then the length of the tank? I'm just curious


----------



## crazymittens

AHP, buildmyled was the exact supplier I would go with - thanks for the positive reference! What configuration did you get?

TF83 - This will be a peninsula tank, so I wanted all plumbing verticals/visibles to be either on top of the tank or at that one end with the overflows/drains. Just no other way to make it work. Having it at the opposite end, while bad for flow rates, is much better for flow circulation - i.e. river current type thingy


----------



## tattooedfool83

Well executed man.


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks man! We can't wait to get it inside. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a clear answer on the plumbing fixes...


----------



## tattooedfool83

crazymittens said:


> Thanks man! We can't wait to get it inside. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have a clear answer on the plumbing fixes...


I can't wait until u get it inside either. Subscribed to this build


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## ua hua

Everything looks really good so far and you are one step closer to having a tank full of plants. What will stop the fish from going into the overflow? I couldn't really see from your pictures if there is something that will be covering the openings or if its just the holes.


----------



## crazymittens

Gutter guard. TM.


In front of the weir. Worked awesome on the 50G setup. Not 100% sure how I'll be attaching it yet...


----------



## Phil Edwards

That's sweeeeeet. Thanks for all the photo updates. I'm really looking forward to seeing this come together in its final location.


----------



## crazymittens

Tx! Picking up the last plumbing bits on the way home tonight, water test tonight, book the move tonight. Woot. This weekend is Thanksgiving, so really hoping to get it moved Thursday.

Due to the weight of the stand and the ext.overflow making that end of the tank awkward, this will require four of us.


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, side note...this is the LED fixture we'll probably be getting...

http://www.buildmyled.com/10000k-planted/

The 72" model with the optional dimmer. Not cheap, but should pay for itself within a few years compared to running dual 2-bulb 36" T5-HO fixtures.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I talked to one of the guys from buildmyled.com at MACNA and he seemed to be a pretty straightforward and helpful guy. Meaning he actually took the time to talk to me when I mentioned planted tanks at a reef keeper's convention.


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, not only have I yet to run across a legitimate negative review (usually pebkac), but saw a positive review indicating favourable shipping to Canada. If they could do the combined duties/shipping fees, I'd buy it today!

After more research might even go to the 13000k unit over 10000k. Hm.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Why would you choose to go that blue?


----------



## crazymittens

Pretty fishies. PAR levels are still pretty much the same as the 10000k, so plant growth should not be affected...does that sound right?


----------



## crazymittens

Filling up for the final test...









Rawr









Siphon break
After minor adjustment, it is silent.









No leaks!! Gave it a good five minutes, nary a drop!









Why you glue fittings









Used the adhesive silicone this time









Operating water level in ExOF









Sump seal fix part 1










A few buddies are coming over tomorrow night to help move it all downstairs!


Hm...it's full of water right now... :confused1: ruh roh shaggy


----------



## fishyboy

Have you ran the system with the full siphon open to the surface? Generally you want it downward facing AND a few inches under the waters surface. If not, given decent flow, you'll be prone to a 'slurp'...... 'slurp' ..... sound.

PS: why not use unions under the bulkheads if you're concerned about needing to move the system?


----------



## crazymittens

fishyboy, yep, system has been run like that - no noise - and there is a problem with 'a few inches'. This is a 125G tank...a few inches = 10-20 gallons being sent, unfiltered, back down the returns, into the pumps, and into the sump.

Also, the concern was not about moving, but about re-using the bulkheads in future. Kind of a silly point on my behalf, since it'd be pretty terrible practice to re-use a key failure point in the system - especially since the cost, relative to the risk, was so low.


----------



## crazymittens

More reading on the BML site articles confirms that PAR is PAR, colour spectrum does not affect plant growth as long as the right PAR levels are present. So 10k, 13k, same thing. I think there's a 5-10PAR difference between those two at 18-24", and when the lower of the two values is still 70-80PAR...haha, we good.

List of stuff still left to do, fabrication-wise:

Sump: cut rubber sheet to fit around drains
Sump: duct tape for seams
Stand: paint/trim the 2x6 hose holder
Return: figure out best way to secure piping
Drains: lid for external overflow box
Stand: electrical...ummm....cut hole for wiring?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Crazy,

Color rating doesn't affect the amount of growth as long as PAR is equal. It does, however, affect growth habit in my experience. Blue light tends to encourage leggier growth and red light tends to encourage more compact, bushier, growth. In the end it's a personal aesthetic choice and judgement call. As long as the plants are growing, the fish look good, and you're happy, who cares?!


----------



## crazymittens

But PRETTY FISHIES! ... 

Hm...compact and bushy is good. Got any sources on that? That's a new line of thought I've not heard yet.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I don't have any sources I can link online. I'd send you a couple of my botany/plant physiology books, but that would be expensive. The general premise is that during early seasons/germination time more blue light gets to the ground and plants see that as a clue to grow up. Come late spring and summer the angle of the sun to the earth is more direct so a higher proportion of red light hits the plants. This is the season they grow "out", put on mass, and flower/make fruit. This is mostly a temperate zone phenomenon. In the tropics more blue light passes through the canopy so anything growing in the understory gets hit with blue light which encourages them to grow up toward the sun so they can get full light. Similar things can be seen in clear/slightly turbid water. 

You could probably encourage bushier growth (relative to the light) with trimming too.


----------



## fishyboy

crazymittens said:


> fishyboy, yep, system has been run like that - no noise - and there is a problem with 'a few inches'. This is a 125G tank...a few inches = 10-20 gallons being sent, unfiltered, back down the returns, into the pumps, and into the sump.
> 
> The internal overflow sets tank water height... Not the standpipe height in the external overflow. I'm saying the full siphon pipe, in the external overflow will slurp air from the waters surface (funnel of air). Anyway, it will be fixable later so no harm. I'm just trying to point out that the line you have marked as "on" above your full siphon pipe is too close to the full siphon pipe opening to work. And that is not from 'someone said that on the internet' thats from trying things


----------



## crazymittens

fishyboy - OHHH totally thought you meant the siphon break on the return line. Yeah, I have spare parts to build another setup like the secondary if need be. The reason WHY it's that high is to limit the waterfall noise when transitioning from internal to external overflows. I won't be gluing the stuff inside the ExOF box for this exact reason - trial and error.  Much appreciate the help!

Phil - That reasoning makes perfect sense, thanks for explaining it! Is the difference enough to warrant 6700 vs. 10000/13000?


----------



## Phil Edwards

The difference is purely aesthetic, really. Your plants will grow well with the PAR the system will put out. I personally prefer color ratings between 6000-8800K. If you can come up with an LED system that'll give you some flexibility that would probably be your best bet. If you can, make sure your system is capable of dimming. That way you can adjust the spectrum to your visual preference.



BTW, natural sunlight is closest to 6000-6700K depending on season/angle of incidence. That's why BML created the 6300K fixture. Personally, if I were to go with one of their lights I'd use the "Iwagumi" 7000K one. That's purely personal visual preference though. I really like the 7000-8000K range. I've grown the hell out of plants under 10000K bulbs before. No question it'll work for you and will give a little extra ooomph to the blues in your fish. I'll be going with a mix of 6000K, 10000K, and reddish bulbs on my tank. I need to do a little playing around to see exactly how I want to mix them though so I can't say exactly what I'll be going with right now.


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, guess I'll have to do some research into what fish I would want in future, what fish I have today, and how my spectrum choice affects display. Thanks!! 

Quick video update, basically the same as before, but with fixes in place.

http://youtu.be/bRPM7WBkbh8


----------



## BruceF

Your fixes are looking good.


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks! Yeah, raising the primary siphon up completely erased the waterfall effect. Minor downside: during any outage, the ExOF box is full of water up to the level of the primary siphon. Not an issue in my book - and just unscrewing the pri.siphon drains the box almost completely.

I'm still not convinced that the powerheads are going to work...


----------



## Phil Edwards

I don't think the water rising in the overflow box will be an issue at all. If anything, it might help it get going faster again. 

Looking good!

Why don't you think the powerheads are going to work?


----------



## fishyboy

Is the bubbling on the full siphon pipe continuous? It looks like it is sucking in surface air in the vid.


----------



## crazymittens

Phil - The powerheads I have work fine, but their power only travels about halfway across the tank (based on junk floating around).

fishyboy - My last setup did the same thing, even with the downturned primary siphon. It's silent, so that's all I really care about. What are you getting at?


----------



## fishyboy

A full siphon set up (bean.herbie/ whatever else), used correctly should involve no air. If you're happy I'm happy. With a adequately submerged pipe, and no air leaks int the plumbing it should be all water. Just trying to help getting you the best design.


----------



## crazymittens

Appreciate the input!  I've read that, but my first setup was nigh identical to the original BeanAnimal design and I still got air in the primary. I see your point...just not sure how to solve.

At any rate, it's silent...and failsafe...haha so it meets the BeanAnimal description well enough. I will experiment with a different primary siphon setup once the tank is functional and see if that makes any difference.

Also, since the sump should be 100% sealed, the air won't make any difference to CO2 saturation. This is a 'low-tech' tank anyways - no CO2 injection for now.


I think what you're suggesting is to either use the standard down-turned pri.siphon (like my secondary), or increase the depth of water over the mouth of the pri.siphon...yes?


----------



## Phil Edwards

I'd go with a downturned primary too, if you can. It may take a little modification, but I think you're good with that stuff. 

re: powerbeads- LOL, gotta keep that autocorrect...powerbeads..*ahem* I was afraid of that when I saw they were the smaller models. Are you able to put them on the other side of the tank? What about back to front? How about one on either side along the back as far down as you can get without messing up the substrate? Lots of ideas...:iamwithst


----------



## fishyboy

Turn down the siphon, seal the fittings with cement. Keep the intake ~4 inches under water and you'll be air free.


----------



## crazymittens

Many many thanks to the valiant efforts of my friends. They came for hockey and moving the fishtank, ended up in the garage helping me sift the MTS and gravel!

*Because of this, ALL gravel/dirt is separated and the tank/stand/sump are moved/shimmed into place!!!!*

Compatriots
While I was busily un-planting the the 10G so we could reclaim the gravel/dirt










Cost of doing business









Wut...I have a garage!?
Been so long...










Separated into buckets









Tank in place!!









View from my favourite couch spot is...somewhat compromised









Piano, too









Tons and tons of overhead working room above the sump










I am so thankful the guys were willing to help. The tasty free beer I'm sure helped. They developed a pretty impressive assembly line for the separation and washing of gravel/mud. All of this work was accomplished between 7:30 and 10:00!! Would have taken me a week at least on my own...nevermind having no chance of moving the tank/stand. So exciting.

My wife was rather pleased to see how much progress we made, but mildly unplussed about how blocked the TV is. I miscalculated my drawrings it would seem. No biggie, TV can be moved over a bit.


So...next steps?

Find appropriate driftwood
Glue up plumbing
Resolve sump sealing issue
Make shrimparium/QT stand
Post-driftwood project, lay egg crate, then MTS/gravel
Plant!
Water!
Cycling!

I'm sure something is missing. It'll come to me.


----------



## cableguy69846

Nice man. But, don't you think the tank will detract from that big, beautiful tv? :hihi:


----------



## crazymittens

These days 50" is small!  And we barely watch TV, so not really a big deal (like maybe 1hr a week). If it comes down to it, I'll just move the TV over 18" - the other side of the wall is unfinished, so fairly straightforward process.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I agree, the view is somewhat compromised. That tv's going to distract tank viewing. 

I'm mighty impressed with all the planning and work that's gone into this crazy. Props to you and your happy face crew! I can't wait to see how this setup evolves. roud:roud:

BTW, what beer was that?


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, Phil. To be honest, this has been an excellent lesson in understanding my limitations (cabinetmaker I am not) and 'learning how to ask for help' (things CAN be too heavy for one person). I suspect the cabinetry would be aided by accurate tools...but still.

If the tank ends up looking like I want and remains low-maintenance...I'll be happy!

Oh...Lake of Bays Brewing "Crosswind Pale Ale" and "Spark House Red Ale". Dang tasty beers.


----------



## crazymittens

So all glued up, aside from the return outlet. Cool. This means that once we get the hardscape sorted out....we can do water and planting!

New powerhead placement









Wire wrapping for powerheads









Aziz, light!









View from my desk










The only issue...I forgot about the whole 'power wiring entry into stand' thing.  Ops...hole saw to the rescue! Also, I'm not sure how much effort I want to put into stand wiring, due to my equipment being so old.


----------



## rustbucket

Love the view from the desk. 
My tank is flat against the wall, though scaping can be more of a challenge, I wish it had both sides viewable.


----------



## ua hua

Nice job, that's looking really nice.


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, guys. Yeah, I think today we go for a driftwood hunt, definitely need larger pieces vs. the ones that worked in the 50G.


----------



## crazymittens

Well, we didn't find any good driftwood...going out again on Sunday. What can I work on until then...?


Sump sealing
Mixing up MTS
Washing down inside of tank
Ideas for ExOF lid
Electrical
Etc


Oooookay...


----------



## crazymittens

Not much to report...

Electrical issues resolved (yay shims)
Sump stuff can wait
Aquascaping has begun...ugh

This is going to be harder than I thought....
I really want to do some caves/hidey places for the fish since all three sides of the aquarium will be open. Will be utilizing some large diameter pipe I think...

Neither of us like this look. Looks like random junk piles...




























Phil, dump these in the sump, gravel, or MTS mix?


----------



## Phil Edwards

What are those? Clay balls with osmocote?


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, have not the faintest. They came in the Filstars with the tank as filter media. Assume they are hydroponic ceramic thingies.

You had mentioned incorporating them into the substrate, IIRC, but in the gravel, or in the dirt?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Soak them in a Potassium solution for a day or two, then put them on the bottom, kinda like Power Sand.


----------



## crazymittens

And not having potassium...put them on the bottom along with the dolomite and potash? 

Wait...I can mush up a banana and soak them in banana mush...they're high in potassium, right?


----------



## crazymittens

Very quick update...leaving for Thanksgiving dinner#1 shortly.











Thoughts? The thing on the left has a cave and will get gravel on top for planting anubias and whatnot. Will also be trying to re-use the driftwood in the temporary tank.


----------



## crazymittens

Aw, dag. Took a closer look at the wood, it's thoroughly rotten. Back to the drawing board...


----------



## crazymittens

We're there!
Your thoughts on the use of gravel...my wife really wanted the corner slope thingy.











What follows is how we got there...

Wood collected









Cleaned pieces









Rejected pieces









Variations on a theme

























































Okay, this'll work


















Securing the hooge driftwood









Feesh cave
Nananananananananana feesh cave!










Dirty dirt dirt
Dolomite, potash, and clay. Will the little clay chunkies help? probably not a ton, but better than nothing.


















Grrravel
My wife decided to take some pictures of the work in progress.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Looking smooth playing in the dirt there Crazy. If the Mrs. wants that slope better find some way of stabilizing it or it'll go bye bye. Otherwise, woooo!!! Add water and let 'er rip!


----------



## crazymittens

Yuppers, adding water today for sure!

I lowered/smoothed that slope by about 50%, so should be okay. Also realized that I left those clay balls out of the mix!! Whups. Maybe I'll toss them in the sump...?

Anyways...more to come once there's water/plants.


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks to the support of my wonderful wife, we are fully online!!

Fillin', fillin' fillin'

























What is this!?









What is that!?









Random action shots

































View from the peninsula end









View from my chair










A few glaring items...

Lighting is awful...one T5HO's bulbs are fully gone
Need to make the upturned 90 for the primary siphon, does the whole noise-silent-noise cycle right now
Need to seal the sump so the inside of the stand doesn't turn into a jungle


Aside from that...feels so nice to have an aquarium running again, and the view from my desk is 150% worth all this effort. CANNOT WAIT FOR FEESH.

In other news, the fish were non-plussed to have me removing their anubias/driftwood chunkies. Feesh.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Oh. Hell. Yes. Congrats my friend! I'm seriously looking forward to watching the fruits of your labors blossom. 

Regarding the primary siphon; rather than put an elbow on it, can you rig up a valve to regulate flow so that only water is going down that drain? It sounds to me like all your water is going down that line and it's causing air draw issues. The whole concept behind a beananimal is to have one main drain that only moves water and the 2ndary to handle the excess and allow air into the line as needed. An elbow on the primary won't really do much to address the air issue without putting a line down into it and then you've got a Durso....


----------



## crazymittens

Tx! The primary siphon is the only one with a ball valve on the drain. My one issue is that since the drains are so huge, closing the ball valve 'just' right means it's 99% closed. In retrospect, would have been nice to splurge on the gate valve, but they were just too much money ($60 vs. $12).

But you're absolutely right, I should have some water going down the secondary, and I do not. Will play with it tonight.

The lighting situation is probably going to hurt the growth of these plants...they are used to having a CFL ~4" above water, with them reaching the surface. They now have ~14" of water plus dim lights. Hopefully these contracts come through soon...



Phil, I still have a huge pile of those green crypts...I didn't want to overstuff the tank/block light...should I be stuffing the aquarium full, or let things grow in?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Stuff it as full of plants as you possibly can. You can always take some out in the future.


----------



## crazymittens

Ok, quick update.

My PVC gluing failed slightly on, of course, the primary siphon where it attaches to the bulkhead. I blame hasty glue-up and re-using 1.5" PVC. Lesson learned.
Spent half the evening fixing that - Depot plumber-guy took one look at me, told me to get "Stretch & Seal" silicone sealing tape. 
That 100% didn't work (maybe pebkac), so Krazy Glue gel did the trick. A lot of it. Some is on my hands.
Still can't get perfection out of the drains after playing around, but at least no leaks now.
Oh, except for the teeeeeeny leak from the primary siphon gasket. Honest to goodness.
I think the latter is a bit of gravel or something fixable.
Adjusted the lower powerhead to point upwards
Started fishless cycle with 30ml of ammonia.

30ml seemed like a ton...but then the calculator said that was at 9.5% solution. Bottle was not labeled, so just went with it. Indicator appears to say something between 4-8ppm, so probably ok.

I check again tomorrow evening.


----------



## crazymittens

Checked this morning, the plumbing leak is fixed but the gasket still has a very minor drip. Not so minor that I'll ignore it, mind you...but minor enough that we'll get the tank cycled before I deal with it.

Oh, by the way...the external overflow makes a great place to get my sample water from for testing!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Ain't plumbing a bear? Those little leaks always niggle at me because I know it was lack of attention. That gets me more than anything. 

After some hasty calculations, 30mL of 9.5% solution in a 160 gallons (605.6L) (accounting for substrate and all that) is only 0.005 mL/L NH3. What sort of indicator are you using?


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, I should know better, but these things happen. Thankfully the Krazy Glue worked well.

The standard ammonia test kit, two bottles, 8 drops each for 5mL water. Turned a mid-green colour - so 5ppm was an approximation (colours jump from 4 to 8ppm on the chart). My understanding of the fishless cycle is you want ~5ppm to disappear within 24ish hours...incorrect?


----------



## Phil Edwards

I've never done a fishless cycle on a FW tank, can't help you there. Sorry! If your soil is fresh chances are good that it's a sufficient source of NH3/NH4 to get things cycled. THAT I have done.  I just thought of something...you've already got plants in there so they're going to skew any attempts at cycling the tank by taking up some, or most, of that NH3. You're probably better off getting a bacterial supplement, like FlorinBacter, to kick start your filtration. Chances are good that it's going to take a while for sufficient bacteria to grow with plants already in the tank. 

I'd be very careful adding NH3 to a new tank that's already planted and lit. It could cause big issues with algae and/or kill your plants.


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, interesting point about killing the plants. The only other time I've done this was on the 50/30 setup, but exactly the same configuration (albeit less water volume) and methodology. No issues with that tank. Took about a week, IIRC.

Haha, and the budget does not support further expenses...I think the next ammonia dose will be less, maybe half that. Will take longer, but less risky.


----------



## crazymittens

Well, as of 5PM (19 hours), appears to be in the 2-4ppm range. And the plumbing leaks have stopped. Yay.


----------



## crazymittens

*I just bought 'Fish Focus Blue 13000K' on Build My LED, LLC*

:icon_eek:

72" fixture in black, 13000k, 90-degree beam, tank stands, and dimmer. Yikes.

I spent a lot of time looking at the kelvin comparisons, decided that I just didn't like how yellow the greens looked under 10000k, and since 13000k was an option designed to make fishies stand out...why not?

Nick said lead time was ~5 business days. Sure hope the plants can wait that long...


----------



## Phil Edwards

I'm sure they'll be fine as far as light goes. They may just grow a little slowly, but that's probably not a problem. 

Hope the 13000K works for you.


----------



## crazymittens

ETA for shipment date is October 26. Cool!! Pretty good customer service so far...even if most of has been automated. You can never communicate too much with a new customer (ok, well...spam aside).


Email direct from Nick after inquiring about shipping.
Replies indicating lead time from Nick.
Automated 'here's your invoice' email.
Automated 'here's your new account information'.
Automated order confirmation email.
Automated email confirming build in progress, and a nice write-up on the manufacturing process along with shipping ETA.

They live up to my expectations so far, cool beans.


----------



## crazymittens

Ammonia down to 1-2ppm. I'm thinking that I added a ton too much at once. Going to wait for it to hit 0, then do 15mL, see how it goes.

Phil, the rapid-cycling chemicals are super expensive...like $30 a bottle...so I'll just go with patience here.


----------



## AHP

Lights are great. I have the same, really makes my cardinals pop. 

My planted setup… No dirt just sand, I am starting fert this week and no CO2. Plants are growing just fine!
Swords grow 1 new leaf a week; stems grow about 1' a week. 

I will have to post some pics.


----------



## Jalopy

I just setup my 50 gallon and added animals too fast. The ammonia spiked to 4ppm and killed 5 amano and 4 nerites. I used stability which i think is just a bacterial starter and does not detoxify ammonia or nitrite. It dropped my ammonia from that to 0ppm in 24 hours.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## Jalopy

Jalopy said:


> I just setup my 50 gallon and added animals too fast. The ammonia spiked to 4ppm and killed 5 amano and 4 nerites. I used stability which i think is just a bacterial starter and does not detoxify ammonia or nitrite. It dropped my ammonia from that to 0ppm in 24 hours.
> 
> A 250 ml bottle was only 9 bucks.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk




Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, could just be the particular brand I looked at. At any rate...I already have the ammonia, so might as well not spend any more money, eh? It is hard to be patient, I'll grant you.

Will try and get all the plants in over the next few nights.


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, haha, Diana posted this in another thread...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=4485433&postcount=22


Start with 5ppm ammonia (important to not exceed this)
When ammonia starts to drop, check nitrites, and if present, allow ammonia to drop to 3ppm
Keep at 3ppm ammonia
If ammonia AND nitrites are both 0ppm 24 hours after the last ammonia add, then cycle is done
Test nitrates, do water change if necessary (nitrates should be well under 20)
If adding fish right away, no need to continue dosing ammonia

I have my marching orders...


----------



## Phil Edwards

Wow...even with the USD being weaker than before that's expensive in CND!! Must be import taxes and shipping costs. That's about twice what I've seen it for at stores here in the US. 

I'd go with the patience method too if I were in your shoes. I think I am, actually, but in my case it should be called the Lazya$$ Method. roud:


----------



## crazymittens

Bah, I caved. Picked some 'Colony' stuff up (it was $17+tax). Only instruction I'm not able to follow is temperature...hovering around 73-74F - recommendations are to have temps at 74-80. I'm not following it because my heater is already set at 74-75, and is probably undersized - so I don't want to break it.

So, tomorrow morning I check ammonia - if we're at 0, I'm moving the fish. The tank got 100G worth of that bacteria stuff, so better than nothing. Plus, another week prior with a decent amount of ammonia present to get things kicked off. We're just out of time on this build.

Added FEESHGARD

















Air stone
I'm finding the external overflow is getting surface scum - probably due to the pumps being so tiny compared to drains, thus not enough flow.










Bacterial stuff









Driftwood algae/mold









Moar plants









Idea of active water level in overflow


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, link for the lazy re: bacteria booster: http://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/products/water-treatment/biologicals/colony-nitrifying-bacteria/


----------



## crazymittens

Ammonia coming down, somewhere around 1ppm. I guess 12 hours is not long enough for that booster. Will check again tonight. Temperature overnight came down to low 73's, so that's also not helping.

At some point I'm going to have to modify the sump lid on the return side so that I can still have access to the heater without shutting the entire system off.


----------



## crazymittens

After getting this out of the way...









Sheesh, as my son calls them

















Yup, platies are in, and are finding the algae on the anubias (pulled out of the 30G temporary tank) delicious.

Been about 2-3 hours, and they seem happy as ever, once past their initial...'wat da heck just happened...where am I?' phase. It kinda looked like one of the larger guys was either courting or establishing dominance...chasing a smaller one around (no nipping).


----------



## crazymittens

All done

















Future shrimparium online










For better or worse, it's done. Fish are in, old tank draining, shrimparium ready for shrimp (some day), and new lights on the way.

Quick list of stuff that 'should' be taken care of:

Sump sealing
Sump top panel modification - allow access to heater
Lights, and cabling/timer
Trim existing plants to encourage growth
Build some sort of cover for external overflow
Route airline for ext.overflow air stone

Beyond that...other stuff is trivial.



I am really enjoying how the black skirts and cardinals school.  My wife is super-happy with this, too.


----------



## tattooedfool83

Outstanding


----------



## crazymittens

Tx! I'll work on getting some decent pictures, but it's really not going to look half-decent until the lights are here and the plants start to grow in.

Just as well that I finished now...I've started using CloudStack at work...need to get it running in my lab next...


----------



## crazymittens

Quick update...


No dead fish, no sick fish
Trimmed some bacopa and replanted the tops
Trimmed some dead/dying crypt leaves
Added another heater (that may be flaky) since the tank temp is now down to 72.5
Added a second light to the shrimparium - water is super-clear now

As far as maintenance goes, opening the lids with a light on top is going to be tricky...I may ghetto-rig something to raise/lower the lights...or maybe a swing/prop mechanism.


----------



## Phil Edwards

That's awesome! Congrats on finishing everything. roud:roud::bounce: I hope this brings you and the family many hours of enjoyment. Wish I could send you plants.


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, thanks for the offer. We're now very busy with baby#2...arrived early this morning. Glad I got the fish moved on Saturday!!!

The lights shipped today, too, so will probably update once they arrive.


----------



## crazymittens

Some downtime...quick update. 


Don't think the lights will get here by Friday, but hey, we can hope
The yellowing of the angelfish is apparently normal, due to inbreeding
The overflow box plumbing is working fine, but definitely doesn't create enough surface suction. Have to figure out a way to properly time the air stone so it's only on for a few hours a day, outside of the normal viewing schedule.


----------



## BruceF

Congratulations!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Crazy,

What strain of Angels are you keeping?


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, BruceF.

Phil, I bought 3 initially from my LFS, labeled as 'mixed angels'. Just your standard silver/black.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Nice! I'm a fan of wild type angels, and most angels in general, as long as their fins are shaped well.

Oh, did you see? I've got plants in my tank now. :bounce:


----------



## crazymittens

Haha, I read the email update, but haven't seen the pics yet...been a little busy.


We were at the LFS and saw some platinum angels...very pretty...


----------



## BruceF

I have a friend who breeds angels, He has a tank of those platinum angels. They are really striking.


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, nice! Yeah, we saw them and got to thinking...gee, those'd look real nice in the tank. They also had some blue angelfish (same as platinum but w. blue tinge) that were equally striking.

Shrimp first, though.


----------



## crazymittens

Not sure if I posted this already...great thread on sump design to prevent CO2 loss.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/10438-Sump-mods-for-CO2-effeciency


----------



## crazymittens

One more quick update...going to try and get some clear pictures. Light did not arrive this week, so hopefully next week. Also will do before/after pictures.


----------



## crazymittens

Not great, but it'll have to do! Will try and do better once the new lights come in...


----------



## crazymittens

Comparison to previous lighting









BML finally arrived! It actually only took 9 days, pretty good in my books.










Some minor colour banding









Cardinal colours are much more vivid!









New view from my desk, iPhone didn't deal with new lighting too well









Fixture is really tiny compared to the old units









LED colours









Driver and dimmer










So there we have it! This tank is now in long-term mode...just growth updates from here on out. I'll probably mount the LED driver/dimmer on the back of the stand for access reasons.

Oh, and now we need to get some shrimpies.


----------



## crazymittens

Some thoughts on the BML unit...


Some of the other reviews indicated they kept the unit on the lowest dimmer setting...not sure how that would work...I can't ever see turning it down below 60-70%
Heatsinks get warm, but not too hot to touch
Overall build quality is superb - I am generally a stickler for that kind of thing - zero complaints
The colour banding isn't really that big of a deal, I don't really notice it now
The output angle I got was 90-degrees...areas near the top of the tank that don't get light are very noticeable - probably will do a suspension setup once we make a hood
Did I mention it's really small? My return plumbing is almost the same visual dimensions...the tank takes up less visual space up top for sure without the T5s
The dimmer really makes me want to get an Apex unit now to do soft on/off/weather effects 

Some more on the brightness...if this unit isn't as bright as I'd imagined, it's kinda scary to think that the PAR levels BML puts out are 30-40% more than the cheaper competition! I would have been probably kinda ticked if I'd spent $200 less, but gotten barely more light than the T5HOs put out.

So yeah...excellent product, would buy again.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Sweeeeeet. :bounce::bounce::bounce:


----------



## rustbucket

Nice light, I am thinking of getting one myself. 

Did you get the dutch? and are you at medium light?


----------



## crazymittens

rustbucket, yeah, they have an apex adapter cable - guessing it could be DIY'd, too.

I got the 13000k fish focus blue. Dimmer is set at 100%...IIRC that gives me 60-80 PAR at the bottom (80 in center, 60 at edges).


----------



## crazymittens

Phil, you might enjoy this... 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4604138

Side project (haha) for the 125.


----------



## crazymittens

Unfortunate update...the angelfish decided to be a brute yesterday, was seriously harassing the black skirt tetras (watched him do this for a good 30 minutes, probably was all day). Found one of them dead up by the overflow this evening.

I sense a 'free angelfish' thread coming up soon...


----------



## Phil Edwards

Sorry to hear about the Angel my friend.  Toss it in the sump?


----------



## crazymittens

Due to the vast field of pot scrubbies...the only open water is right near the return pumps. Pretty sure you're not suggesting I put it in there...  I'm not too too sad about him going - I'm now certain he's done this once before.

The 20G is already running, so I'd pondered putting him in there until I get shrimpies. If he continues his harassment, definitely will move him.


----------



## Phil Edwards

That's the 20g "refugium" right? If so, perfect place for time out.


----------



## angelcraze

Wow, Crazy, this is well, crazy amazing!!! 

I just found this thread and have *a lot *of reading to do, but from what I had time to read, I am thoroughly impressed. Your mechanical plans and inclination is way beyond me at this point, but WOW!!!

A thought on your angel, couldn't find what kind it was other than mixed with gold on it (maybe) but I do find my gold marble angels to be more aggressive than other types and also more aggressive as younger (under a year and a half) than adults. I do, however, keep this strain of breeding adult angelfish in with phantom tetras with no problems than the occasions ventral fin nip amongst themselves. 

I am def. subscribed to follow growth by BML fixture. Very awesome.


----------



## angelcraze

crazymittens said:


> Some thoughts on the BML unit...
> 
> [*]The output angle I got was 90-degrees...areas near the top of the tank that don't get light are very noticeable - probably will do a suspension setup once we make a hood
> 
> So yeah...excellent product, would buy again.


I am not a techie, right? What does this mean? You can see a beam (light) separation at the top corners, front and back? A tighter beam angle suspended would present the same issue then? It's a PITA to deal with a deep tank, getting light penetration to the substrate.


----------



## crazymittens

Very generous of you, angelcraze. Interesting point about the angel...he's almost a year old at this point. Guess I'll wait it out. Think he'd calm down if we got him some friends? (same exact species, or just more angels?)

What I mean by the beam thing is that if you look down the length of the tank, you can see the 'A' shape of the light beam (tip of the A being the LED unit itself). For example when a fish swims up out of the 'A' light beam, the lack of light is very obvious...very sharp 'cutoff', if you will. It's not really a big deal...just a visual distraction to me.

With these units, the light is getting down there alright - check their site for the PAR charts. You would do a tighter beam if the light fixture was being suspended 12-24" above the water surface. Since mine is 2-3" above the surface, if I didn't have a 90-degree beam, parts of the substrate would not be lit (properly).


Uh...does that clear it up?


----------



## howze01

I was looking at BML for my 150g(4'x2'x30") I am setting up and the site recommended 3 of the 48" units. Are you just keeping lower light plants or have you found that the 1 unit is enough for your tank? Was thinking of going with 2 of them for my tank but if 1 is enough I would rather save $270.


----------



## carpalstunna

howze01 said:


> I was looking at BML for my 150g(4'x2'x30") I am setting up and the site recommended 3 of the 48" units. Are you just keeping lower light plants or have you found that the 1 unit is enough for your tank? Was thinking of going with 2 of them for my tank but if 1 is enough I would rather save $270.


If he is truly getting par of 60-80 at the subtrate (unless your tank is deeper) that should be plenty for medium to medium high light. I wouldnt see why you would want more than that. The only concern I think you will have is like crazy mentioned with 1 fixture you are going to have less spread especially if you choose one of the narrower lenses. 

I personally went with more "cheaper" less intense fixtures. I was able to get the same PAR values with greater spread and less $ than a BML. But BML are no doubt very good and more powerful. My tank is 24" deep


----------



## crazymittens

carpalstunna, yep, I looked at that method, too, but ended up being really attracted to the single fixture idea, especially one that would more likely than not last a very long time.

howze01, really not 100% on what type of plants I have, but back when I got them the idea was 'low light plants'. Don't forget that low light is considered like 20 PAR, and I think high is 60 and up. I would think that you'd be happy with two 90-degree units, but maybe you REALLY need a lot of light...everything I've read indicates that a call with Nick (at BML) will sort you out - do that before you purchase!!


----------



## angelcraze

crazymittens said:


> Interesting point about the angel...he's almost a year old at this point. Guess I'll wait it out. Think he'd calm down if we got him some friends? (same exact species, or just more angels?)
> 
> What I mean by the beam thing is that if you look down the length of the tank, you can see the 'A' shape of the light beam (tip of the A being the LED unit itself). For example when a fish swims up out of the 'A' light beam, the lack of light is very obvious...very sharp 'cutoff', if you will. It's not really a big deal...just a visual distraction to me.
> Uh...does that clear it up?


Yes. Thanks, looks like I had the right understanding afterall. What if you tilted the fixture pointing from front to back or vice versa, then positioned the fixture off center? You probably wouldn't be able to use your brackets, and it still might have to be hung higher, but would that cut down the unlit areas at the very top do you think?

I am probably thinking of my tanks setup, were the back is built up (substrate is higher), so I don't need as deep of light penetration at the back. Not sure if it would make a difference in your tank either, maybe the idea would help howze01?


----------



## angelcraze

Oh ya, and the angel? You only have one? Idk, in my experience things can get pretty messy between them. If you do get more, I'd get a least 5 more, I don't think the kind really matters, I try to keep like strains together though. They like to establish a pecking order. Then everything gets disrupted when a pair decides it's mating time, and I think I just have the right water for this or something..........


----------



## crazymittens

angelcraze, if anything I'd just do a raised hood to the height that would remove this effect. Less PAR hitting the bottom, though. Or maybe do a raise/lower system via aircraft cable from the ceiling. For how little it disrupts the room, I'm cool with the dark spots for now.

Yeah, I had three to start with, two decided to investigate my drain system (before I discovered gutter guard). That was kinda sad.

I think he'll live out his days as-is...if any more fish mysteriously die, I'll give him up for adoption. Maybe down the road pick up a school of 6 or more white angels.


----------



## carpalstunna

ya, I personally have no problems with "dark spots" in a tank. I think it can look more natural. Also it allows you to place plants that need less light,(anubius) in the dark spots, they will have less algae growth on them. So you can make it work for sure. I would think based on crazys results 2 fixtures would be great but, I would talk to BML for sure. They will set things straight.


----------



## crazymittens

++ (and good point...I should move the Anubias)

Also...awesome username. Haha!


----------



## howze01

carpalstunna said:


> If he is truly getting par of 60-80 at the subtrate (unless your tank is deeper) that should be plenty for medium to medium high light. I wouldnt see why you would want more than that. The only concern I think you will have is like crazy mentioned with 1 fixture you are going to have less spread especially if you choose one of the narrower lenses.
> 
> I personally went with more "cheaper" less intense fixtures. I was able to get the same PAR values with greater spread and less $ than a BML. But BML are no doubt very good and more powerful. My tank is 24" deep





crazymittens said:


> carpalstunna, yep, I looked at that method, too, but ended up being really attracted to the single fixture idea, especially one that would more likely than not last a very long time.
> 
> howze01, really not 100% on what type of plants I have, but back when I got them the idea was 'low light plants'. Don't forget that low light is considered like 20 PAR, and I think high is 60 and up. I would think that you'd be happy with two 90-degree units, but maybe you REALLY need a lot of light...everything I've read indicates that a call with Nick (at BML) will sort you out - do that before you purchase!!


Sounds as though I will be just fine with 2 units. Mine will be hung from the ceiling so my PAR will be a bit less. I am going to have plants on the driftwood outside the water so the fixture may be 18"-2' or so off the water.


----------



## crazymittens

I'd still call. Their PAR levels are measured with the fixture 6" off the water, IIRC. Nick would know for sure what you could expect with the fixture that high off the water.


----------



## howze01

crazymittens said:


> I'd still call. Their PAR levels are measured with the fixture 6" off the water, IIRC. Nick would know for sure what you could expect with the fixture that high off the water.


Will call for sure. My driftwood sticks out of my tank about 6". Was hoping to put a nice little orchid on there. May just go with some moss or something if it will mean a 3rd light...

This is all in the future anyway. Working on the tank now and still need to build a stand. I'm looking forward to seeing what Current does with their new plant fixture too. Also looking into the Orphek pendants so nothing is set in stone yet.

Haven't said it yet but I really like your tank. The amount of planning and work that went into it will put my plans to shame! I am planning on a sump too so I will have to read your thread for all the info I can get.


----------



## crazymittens

howze01, there is planning and there is execution.  Thanks, though.

The orchid thing would be so awesome...but you might have to hang a mister (did some reading on orchids as part of my overflow emersed growth project). I really wanted to do emersed growth as a large portion of the build, but evaporation is brutal due to there being a heating duct right above the tank.

Sump stuff is made out to be complicated...it's really not.


----------



## howze01

I keep about 20 different Orchids now. Have never tried a jewel orchid like the ones I am considering for this though. I mist them all if not every day, every other day. I am also counting on the moss to wick some moisture to them too. I saw someone that drilled a hole into the driftwood and used a small pump to pump water from the tank, up through the driftwood and out the top. I can probably work something like that out and put it on a timer to come on a couple times a day. Like I said though, all in the planning stage for now though


----------



## crazymittens

That's awesome! Got any pointers for someone considering getting into orchids?

And yeah, I remember seeing that thread...very ingenious.


----------



## howze01

Depends on which you are looking to keep but generally the ones from Home Depot/food stores etc. are phaelanopsis. They do best if repotted, I use orchid baskets since their roots like air. I use a mix of orchid bark and sphagnum moss to pot. Good, clean water is a huge help with orchids too. I use RO water but filtered tap water is OK too. An easterly or southerly window is best for them if you can't keep them outdoors. I put mine outside in semi shade during the spring, summer and early fall and in my sunroom or windows during the winter. Mist them early in the morning so they dry out by night time and you should do well!


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## Phil Edwards

Man, what happened to your system? It used to look so good....


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## crazymittens

Super confused.


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## crazymittens

Quick update. 

Plants are growing very nicely now - trimmed a few stems last night.
Anubias did NOT like that peroxide dip - 80% of the leaves are melting. I did a mass trim, split some of them as well.
Water is looking a bit yellow today - probably due to me stirring up the substrate yesterday. I think I just might do a 25% water change this weekend, and clean the mech filters.
Also going to figure out something to polish the water...maybe try that before a water change. I have filter floss, tools, and spare power heads.


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## rustbucket

I'm thinking of trying out seachem purigen for that extra polish. Never tried it before, but I know a few people swear it gives your water that "clear as air" look, so might be worth it.


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## crazymittens

Yeah, I've heard that as well. Trying to keep this tank low maintenance and low budget, though.  I think that even adding some filter floss down in the mech filtration area should help. Simple enough, anyways.


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## crazymittens

Update...


Lovely pearling....from the algae on the highest driftwood limb.
Removed all of the platies into the spare tank - interestingly it appears the black phantoms are more willing to swim about.
Not sure if the filter floss is helping...but can't hurt. Water is still kinda yellow-ish. Didn't get around to a water change.
Two of the platies are now 'infected'...not sure if they're healing, the original 'infecteee' appears to be... maybe?
The anubias I did not trim back has definitely started melting something fierce. Have to trim soon.
I'm thinking in the new year if plant growth still isn't what I had wanted, might invest in CO2. Willing to wait, though...the lights were a requirement, CO2 not so much.


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## Phil Edwards

Crazy,

I was joking, it looks great! 

Try looking around online for used Diatomaceous Earth filters. That'll polish your water up right quick.

How long did you soak the Anubias for? Was it full strength H2O2 out of the bottle or did you dilute it?


----------



## crazymittens

Too long, I guess!! I did 10 minutes of 2:1 (water:H2O2), and 5 minutes of straight H2O2.

Thanks for the tip on the filters...


----------



## angelcraze

rustbucket said:


> I'm thinking of trying out seachem purigen for that extra polish. Never tried it before, but I know a few people swear it gives your water that "clear as air" look, so might be worth it.


I have used Purigen and it *does *work like magic. Waaayy better than carbon (although I only use floss now). I have dirted tanks and it helps tremendously to remove the tannins. It also can be re-used/rejuvenated using bleach, then a ton of prime and I have done this as well, successfully, so the cost is actually (in a way) self sustaining. I bought the big jar of it and divide the qnty of suggested Purigen for each tank and stuff it in a knotted piece of pantyhose instead of buying the bags. W/cs work really well too however, cost free.

And for the anubias.......I have/would cut off* any *less then perfect leaves at the rhizome, also chop the rhizome if any rot is observed on it. Anubias, ime, has done much better the more you prune it. The leaves do not rejuvenate, and the rhizome will sprout out new shoots with every slice.

I'm glad to hear your tank is doing well, I am still following your results with the BML.


----------



## crazymittens

The rhizome looked okay, but on some of the cuttings, ALL leaves had issues. I left only one or two of the best...figured it had to have at least one leaf.

On the BML side, where I made the trims on the stems the other day there is lots of new growth! I'm going to experiment on getting the stems to grow 'bushy' versus tall.

Oh...and picking up a dozen or so shrimp tonight! Wheee....


----------



## carpalstunna

I agree when I started trimming bad looking leaves off my anubis is when they began to really thrive. Now they are both flowering regularly.


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## crazymittens

Got some shrimp last night! They appear to be quite happy in the shrimparium.
Moved the platies back into the main tank. The one with missing head scales appears to be recovering, so must just be some behavioural oddity.
If time allows, water change this weekend.


----------



## angelcraze

What kind of shrimp did you get? I love shrimp in the aquarium, they clean everything up, I wish I had a shrimparium, cause they hide and the shrimplets get eaten at every opportunity.


----------



## crazymittens

Just cherry shrimp to start. They're the smallest cherry shrimp I've seen so far...largest is no longer than an inch. The ones I had last time got up to 1.5" or so...and were still getting eaten...so these guys will probably not last very long in the main tank. 

I am slightly torn between keeping fish, or just going massive shrimparium!! Love the shrimpies.


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## Phil Edwards

A shrimparium would be awfully cool. It would be neat to see a couple thousand of the little buggers doing their deal in that massive tank.


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## crazymittens

I know, eh! I'm really ticked that the fish murder the shrimp so badly. Community fish, indeed!

The plan right now is to get the 20G shrimparium full of shrimp (guessing that'll be like 4-6 months), then migrate a huge bunch in, see how long they last.

If fancy shrimp weren't so ridiculously expensive, I could see myself going 100% shrimp. But $90/shrimp is...um...a little silly.


----------



## Phil Edwards

That's why I stick to Cherries and Amanos. It doesn't hurt the wallet as badly when I kill them all.


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## angelcraze

I am going to try red rilis in my 120g community, and yellow shrimp in my 90g. A little more expensive then cherries, but not too crazy in my city. My 90g is heavily planted with lots of plant cover, and and 120g will be, so I am sure a few will manage to colonize. If/when your tank is covered in plants or driftwood spots to hide, I'm sure they will survive in there, although you will not see them as much. I guess the shrimparium on the bottom would be a nice place to keep a large number and observe their behaviour. 

I have cherry shrimp (love the cherries) in my 46g bow with angel fry and rams right now. Even these little baby fish eat my shrimp, but with more plants they have started breeding again! Also colonizing a tank prior to adding fish is a better idea.

A huge shrimparium would be awesome, but you would only be able to add two types, maybe three to keep them from interbreeding and looking like crap. Neo-caridina (dwarf shrimp) can be kept with caridina species (tigers and crystals) with no cross breeding. I heard minami shrimp are a separate species altogether, but I don't know too much about it yet. I looked into this too!!!


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, I have read that if the shrimp are there first, the fish are less prone to buffet-behaviour. Unfortunately time was not on my side for this. At least we have the shrimparium.


I did some more stem plant prune/re-planting last night...seems they get to about 12" then the bottom leaves start disappearing.

Anyone have good clear info on how to grow this stuff large and bushy?


----------



## angelcraze

What is the plant you want to grow bushy? I get it's a stem, so I will compare it to my rotala. Here is what I do to make it look better since the tips always grow fuller and pinker:

I cut off the tallest tips (usually grown to the surface) that are hopefully at the back of the bunch. I either rip out the bottom stalk or just leave it short and at the back to re-grow. I plant the nice full stalk in the front of the bunch (this stalk will be shorter). I keep doing this until I get a bush-like "step" effect, (gradually getting taller form front to back) The new stems hide the bottom of the old/tall stems, while they still get sufficient light to the bottom leaves to keep them full and pink. I also make sure not to grow them too compact and thin out the stems to let light reach in between, I just take out the ugliest ones.

I hope this made sense, I am in a hurry, I know you asked for good clear info, LOL


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## crazymittens

Haha, the step thingy makes sense for stem plants.

I find that they keep growing, but just have leaves on the top 6-10"...anything below that the leaves fall off. (past and present experience)


----------



## crazymittens

Well, figured I'd update...

The BML unit developed a fault (the far 50% of the light bar suddenly stopped turning on the other day, and the rest of the bar got super hot as a result), so I had to test out their support.

Happy to say I got a return shipping label within 24 hours and the unit was dropped off at my local UPS store for RMA. Nick and Joanne have done a great job so far. Unfortunately (assuming due to the ridiculously large package dimensions) it couldn't go overnight, so it won't arrive in Texas until mid-next week.

In the mean time I've plugged my old lights back in. DANG. Tank looks like crap now! So yellowey and washed out...not to mention that one unit's bulbs are toast. Ugh. Can't wait to get muh BML back! <3

Can't recall if I got pictures or not...imagine a 72" LED strip on...now imagine half of it is off...got it?...okay, that's what it looked like.


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## crazymittens

Unfortunately still no light. I think this is a perfect storm...if you will...of coincidences. A great test of my patience. 


 Issue reported Nov 18 ~6PM
 Shipping label sent Nov 19 ~early afternoon
 Dropped off Nov 19 - missed UPS shipping window by 30 minutes
 Light shipped out Nov 20
 Light arrives Nov 27 ~AM due to slow shipping
 American Thanksgiving Nov 28/29
 Worst ice storm in the US in several years hits Texas and southern states
 lol

So we'll chalk the delay in communication/action up to all that. I sent an email last night, so hopefully I'll get some better idea of when it'll arrive on Monday. It's cool, having worked alongside customer service/manufacturing, sometimes these things happen all at once. Getting upset doesn't fix anything. 

If anything - going back to my old lights has greatly emphasized how awesome the BML unit really is.


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## crazymittens

Well, communication picked up this week. Apparently they are completely swamped with orders. After some repairs and further testing/burn-in, the light is back in transit. Should be here early next week.


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## crazymittens

Alrighty, light is back!

I'd have to say that even with the delays across the border and with shipping, I would buy from BML again. The RMA was shipped via UPS unfortunately, and UPS doesn't care what paperwork you have - brokerage fees for you! $65 worth.

Joanne at BML got back to me and said if I was okay paying the COD charge, they'd refund me the amount. That worked for me, and it was done the same day by BML! Well done, guys.

So any prospective Canadian buyers - USPS & CanadaPost ONLY!! For any reason!

I am once again blown away by how good everything looks compared to the T5s. Dang. So good.


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## rustbucket

Reading about BML's customer service makes me want to buy from them. 
Can't wait till I can get things settled and get a new light!!


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## crazymittens

The only thing that could have made it better would be if they offered an upgrade option when it was in for service! I understand the timing didn't work, but I was only two days off their new XB line release date! Haha, again, just a timing thing, nobody at fault.

Ya, every time I looked at the tank today...so glad I spent the money there.


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## AHP

Yea I hear you Crazymittens. I am waiting for their next phase of lights to come out and I might buy two 48". 
But I am happy with what I have now... for the time being! muhaaa


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## crazymittens

Figured I'd update since Phil finally got around to doing one.

Welp, got four pearlscale platinum angelfish tonight. They are just lovely, but surprisingly are getting completely harassed by the lone angelfish that was already there. Makes me hate this guy even more. Oh well.
Oh, and a sunburst platy I'd assumed was pregnant died today.  I kinda hate the platies, too (dirty fish), but they are pretty, and they do a good job with the algae.
We were going to get some cardinals, too, but they were babies, so I figured the angelfish would just eat them.
Shrimpies had some die-off - pretty sure they were not the greatest stock. Hopefully I'll see some more in the coming months.
I must reiterate how good the platinum angels look under the new light. I will nuke that jerk angel before I see them go! (they were also super expensive - on sale, granted, but still, yeesh)


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## rustbucket

why you tell me with no pictures? I want to see these new angels. 



I was thinking of getting platies for my tank, but I think I'll pass. Was thinking the babies would be good snack for the fish..eek but if the adults don't cut it why bother.


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## Phil Edwards

crazymittens said:


> Figured I'd update since Phil finally got around to doing one.


LOLOLOLOL I see how it is. I've got to show you mine in order to see yours?


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## crazymittens

Argh, fine. Have some horrible cell phone pics. The last one is the closest colour match.

edit: Oh, and the fighting has (mostly) stopped. Just half-hearted chasing around now. Violence is much less. Amusingly, even the blackskirts are in on the bullying.


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## Phil Edwards

The different colored LEDs do bring out a nice bit of coloration in the fish, I've got to give you that. Good choice in the Pearlscales/Platinums!


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## rustbucket

Very pretty fish!!


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## crazymittens

They sure are...I am somewhat tempted to go back and get two more.

Thank my wife, I was more leaning toward the 'blue' strain of the pearlscale platinums, but she insisted on the white. I am glad she did!


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## crazymittens

Fighting continues sporadically...but not only are the whiteys fighting back, but they're eating something now. Guess it will take them a few more days to fully adapt to the water parameters.

I figure in a week or two I'll do another 25% water change just to make sure they get the best chance.

Also thought I'd update on the water clarity. Tossing the filter floss into the sump seems to have helped...and cleaning the glass more often than 'never' also makes a big difference.

After a week or two the floss looks like this:


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## crazymittens

Hm, they are still fighting, although a lot less. Two of the new angels are turning pink, pretty sure stress. Those two barely eat, one other sort of eats, and one eats just fine (and looks the healthiest).

Have to guess that the store fed them primo food, now they won't eat anything less. Shame, seems odd the store would tell me flake/freeze-dried bloodworms is fine, but then the fish don't eat?

At this point I'm assuming that at least two, probably three of the new angels will die. It's been almost two weeks without food for two of them...


----------



## crazymittens

Welp, one of those stressed two has died. The other one is exhibiting the same symptoms, guessing he'll be done in a day or so. In fact I might put him down via icebank outside.

Conversely, the other two are doing better than ever (giving each other love bites!?). I'm going to assume that the reason why this batch was on sale was inbreeding issues.


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## Phil Edwards

I'm sorry to hear about your fishes Crazy.  I hope the rest of them settle down and start playing nice.

Got a new FTS?


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## crazymittens

Tx. Ya I euthanized the other guy last night, going to try and get a decent pic of his condition. He should be quite frozen at this point.

I'll try and get one this weekend. Not much has changed, some small plant growth. Actually, the red plant on the left is growing like crazy.


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## crazymittens

I was PM'ing back and forth with Pianofish, he was interested in the overflow build. Figured I'd post up some of my thoughts in point form for those considering the pros/cons.


BeanAnimal and freshwater: size your drains ACCORDINGLY. Your flow must be capable of starting a siphon in the primary drain. Too low and too large plumbing (like 700GPH (net) through 1.5") will prevent a proper siphon from forming.
The design considerations of the overflow were pulled directly from a CAD drawing 'Uncleof6' posted in the 'Silent and safe overflow' thread on reefcentral. Please take your measurements from that, not from what I did (unless your tank size/plan is identical).
If you follow the proper procedure, a 100% noob to glass cutting/assembly can build this. It's really not hard - just requires patience and practice with cutting/measuring.
Unless you have specific reasons, I'd really recommend against doing a 'long-length' overflow. It's an aesthetic issue waiting to happen - and a long straight line across the back of the tank WILL irritate you eventually. Freshwater flow rates just don't need that large of an overflow width.

Expounding on that last point...do the math before you take my word at face value.

I have ~1300GPH gross, something like 700GPH net after plumbing losses (due to peninsula design). My internal overflow is something like 17", weir size is like 1/8" I think (maybe 1/4"). Technically it could flow 1500GPH net, IIRC.

Unless you MUST have your plumbing at the back of the tank, I stress (from experience) that the long-length overflow just ends up being a hassle to keep clean, especially in a small tank (it was a pain in the 50G).

=======================

I have some pics of the frozen fish, and a FTS to take for Phil today.


----------



## crazymittens

Lights aren't on yet...but here's what happened to both angelfish. You tell me what it is.

They seemed fine day 1, aside from the extreme harassment of the existing angelfish (lesson learned). Then base of fins turned red, then this a week later, then death. Toward the end, gasping at surface and at bottom.

The other two identical fish (came from the same tank, same batch of fish) now seem to be 100% content, eating relatively well.


























Poor guys. 


And before Phil chimes in, the lights aren't on yet, so FTS later.


----------



## crazymittens

So much for the iPhone having a great camera. Better than nothing, though.

The moss is growing very well. The red is REALLY washed out of the...rotala?...on the left. Actually the entire picture is pretty washed out. Yeesh.

Also kinda wishing I'd listened to my wife and planted all like things together instead of mish-mash. Ah well.











edit: And that angelfish is still fighting for his territory. bleh. I'm done with cichlids. If these two die, the other guy is joining them. He is the destroyer of worlds.

edit2: Hum. Tank really hasn't done much since my last FTS (October). I guess partially due to only having the BML unit online for a month or two total. If it still looks the same in 3 months I'll be looking for suggestions. I need taller plants! Might just do a jungle of jungle val.


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## rustbucket

A jungle of jungle val is always wicked!

I think angels are pretty but have always stayed clear of them and their aggression is one of the reasons  
My Bolivian rams are nice and peaceful though so I do keep cichlids.

I think the tank looks nice, I like the mish mash look, but you can always change things up, that's the fun part right?!


----------



## angelcraze

So sorry about your angels. None of your other fish are showing any ill signs? That's very good if they aren't. I would lean toward an internal bacteria infection with the pink colouration on the body, like Septicemia. That's very unfortunate that they got sick. They are very pretty angels, I fell in love with the pearlscale angels when I first saw them at my LFS, have had them ever since. 

I have 4 angels in a 120g, two pairs. I have had them for a few years now. Things can get pretty ugly, I'll admit, especially at spawining time, which happens at least every week with the two pairs. I have black and red phantoms tetras in with them. But all and all, the worst I see in injuries in a shortened pelvic fin (which grows back) or some split fins on the angels. It took me a while to get used to the aggression, they REALLY guard their eggs and fry. But I love cichlids, and their bodies are made stronger to resist these kinds of injuries. 

I have had platties in there before, but they are too stupid (sorry) and docile and just swim senselessly into the the angels' territory (tend to be top strata as well) two seconds later after they got the crap kicked out of them, to get the rest of the crap kicked out of them. The phantoms tend to keep a middle strata, lower then the angels anyway, and zip out of the angels' way more effectively. They are also compatible in a sense in that they are all native to the amazon basin. 

It sounds like you are not appreciating your wild-type angel at all. If I were you, I would try to relocate him, maybe sell him or give him away ASAP to be on his own or as a more aggressive angel with other aggressive angels. Remember, this tank *was his* territory. He suddenly had to share it other angels. I don't really blame him for defending it. Maybe you can keep him separated in a net or something until you find a new home? 

Looking at your pic, it looks like the two surviving platinums are getting along swimmingly, if they are giving 'love bites', I would assume they are courting and will be a pair, because I have seen the difference between courting 'love bites', and fighting 'trying to rip eachothers' lips off' and that's not cool. I hope you don't give up on angels or cichlids, because they are very interesting to watch, being a 'smarter' fish and watching them court, spawn and raise their fry is amazing to see. 

Mid-sized tetras and dwarf cichlids, like rams, I have found to be the best match for angelfish.

Your tank looks amazing, the tannins suit the angels very well. W/c's, ime, are the most effective way of removing them however. I have purigen as well, but w/c s work much better.


----------



## crazymittens

No, platies are incredibly stupid. At least they eat algae. And come in fun colours.

And yeah, all other fish in perfect health/behaviour. It's not that I am faulting the fish, just too bad I missed that part during my reading/research. And kinda upset that the local LFS would sell bad fish.

I guess it could be just massive stress-out?

The tannins I don't really notice. Filter floss tossed in the sump helps. Water is crystal clear otherwise.

The platinum angels have taken to hiding in the cave...except they're way too big. And that doesn't stop the original guy from attacking them. Unfortunately I only have the shrimparium to transfer him to....and we all know how that'll end.

Maybe just mind tricks, but looks like one of them is starting to get that red colouration. Dag.


----------



## angelcraze

Can you add more hiding spots? Maybe a large sword? Angelfish fight when they can 'see' eachother. Adding bunches of stem plants or large leafy plants can 'divide' their territories. Your tank is large enough to keep more than a pair of angels provided there are enough spots to retreat in. It would also help change things around a bit, so they have to re-stake out territories for themselves. So if you want to bunch plants together, now would be the time to do it. But if you are not prepared to change your scape at all to accommodate a fish, I would definitely try to keep your trouble angelfish separate from your other two. Could one of those large breeder nets work for now? 

Unfortunately, the fighting and harassing will only make matters worse in regards to stress. For your platinums, trying to adapt to new water parameters (maybe), a new tank and being harassed at the same time. I really hope it's only mind games with the one you think is maybe starting to get the red colouration, I know the mind game thing has happened to me before, I get really stressed when fish are sick. 

I hope someone knows for sure what happened to your angels, all I could find was Septicemia, which is treated with anti-bacterial meds. Can't see how this would become an issue in your planted tank where which regular water changes are preformed, except one site did list fighting as a potential cause for the disease.


----------



## crazymittens

No budget for plants right now, although I have some algae-ey crypts that are much larger than the ones in here right now. Hum.

I might just dump him into the shrimparium...see how long the shrimp live in the big tank.

And by might...I mean this weekend.


----------



## crazymittens

And by weekend, I mean it's already done.

What a huge relief to have some peace and quiet in the tank again. Although the rest of the fish are all schooling again in consternation. Whatevs. Gonna keep up a healthy feeding regimen until the angels improve or deteriorate. Probably do a water change next weekend if time allows.

So I added in all the plants that were going nuts in the shrimparium, some driftwood (that took 6 months to sink), and some rocks. And shrimp. Of the 15-20 I purchased, I pulled out 6. Maybe the water was too cold (73), or maybe they were just awful stock. We'll see how long they last in here...hopefully the tetras have forgotten how to eat shrimp.

The psycho angelfish is now in the shrimparium, and a 'free' ad is up on the local fish board.










The plants down here are getting hosed for light
I may attempt to move them...we'll see. I'd assume they're still getting 'low light'...don't have a PAR meter to confirm.










SHRAMP









A LOT of this stuff...
It really took off in the shrimparium. Roots down into the 'substrate'. We'll see how it does wrapped around the end of that branch.










I left the photoperiod too long...too long
Shrimparium got a bit fuzzy...wups.










This came as a tiny thing with the shrimp - what is it?
I haven't looked.


----------



## angelcraze

So glad things are working out so far, I would say, based on my experiences, the shrimp find a way to survive, in your 125g, although you might not see them much. Idk know what those plants are mostly, but I would guess it's java fern, maybe a different variety? It's pretty (if that's what you were referring to)

Your tank is looking great, love your angels, do you think they are a pair? Behaviour-wise, caude you can't really tell till they do the act and observe their breeding tubes. I think you made some good choices and your shrimpies look great 

Your fish are just checking things out and getting used to their surroundings, I suspect things will get back to normal in no time.

Love your tank, and your fish choices.


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## angelcraze

crazymittens said:


> Gonna keep up a healthy feeding regimen until the angels improve or deteriorate. Probably do a water change next weekend if time allows.


Now now, be positive, it will get you furthur. You have a beautiful thing going, keep in going.


----------



## crazymittens

Ha, thanks. With those larger plants in, starting to look like what I'd wanted. Very much looking forward to the next year or so of growth.

Could be fern...seems very soft compared to the actual java fern...but maybe I just have a wacky java fern.

Yeah, pretty sure they are a pair. Not sure if the tank would provide them breeding conditions. One of them wasn't eating that well last night. Wait...breeding tubes?? Wha?


----------



## rustbucket

Bright green plant in the middle looks like a hygro of some sort, perhaps hygro compact. Behind it are some crypts and possible java fen to the right??


----------



## crazymittens

Hygro eh, thanks. Yeah, lotsa crypts in here, and the foreground plant in that picture is indeed a java fern. I think eventually I'll migrate all stem plants into one condensed area and work on getting the tank into a root-based plant only tank. Crypts and vals I think...yeah. 

The angels aren't getting any worse, so I think just a waiting game now. Shrimp sightings are 0 for the last two days. Sigh.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Looking slick there Crazy. That Hygro corymbosa will grow nicely in your tank. As for the stuff you've got on the wood…I've got no clue. Half the fun is trying it, right?


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, Phil. Haha, sure is. I think I'll take an hour this weekend to trim the stem plants back down. The red ones sure are growing nicely, and actually seem to follow the 'it splits where you cut it' theory.

Day 3, no shramp. Ah well. Psycho angel seems to be content in the bare tank staring at his reflection.


----------



## crazymittens

Contemplating getting a pile (say 50) of additional cardinals.

Discuss. Why or why not?


----------



## rustbucket

I say get them. I love big schools, my fav thing about tanks. 

But you do have angel fish, I don't know what would happen if they decided to start snacking, never kept angels myself, but it could be a possibility?


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, I wondered how they would react...but so far they only sometimes chase other fish out of their area. Hm...guess if I added a ton of fish they'd be kinda ticked.

Haha, both my wife and I are kinda tired of angelfish at this point. Such angry and proud fish.

edit: To be honest, my dream with this tank was a hoooooge pile of cardinals.


----------



## rustbucket

If that's what you really want re-home the angels and go with cardinals. I have spent a lot of time not doing what I really want to do with my tank, thinking I can wait a little longer and save some money. In the end, I just end up wasting a lot of time and money on set ups that I don't truly enjoy.

I think a big school of small fish looks way better then one or two big fish. Only thing I hate about buying that many fish is you're almost certain to face one or two disease's, so get the meds ready!

I started out with a lot of different fish and have since re-homed lots of the little buggers so that I can focus on my true dream, a pile of Congo Tetra!! I am really excited about my tank again and when the Congo's finally get in there I know I will be spending much more time in front of it


----------



## crazymittens

Yeah, congo tetras was a close second.

Hm, maybe I'll just keep adding 6 at a time, like once a quarter to keep the angels placated.


----------



## crazymittens

So...um. Angelfish have spawned. :S

Huge pile of little eggies, the angels are fiercely guarding and huddling over them.


----------



## crazymittens




----------



## crazymittens

Dag. Another issue with my light...this time only a small section of the LED strip is lighting up...and barely so. Guessing it's a driver problem? Hopefully will have a fast turnaround.

Angels appear to have eaten some of the eggs.


----------



## crazymittens

Well, spoke to BML earlier. Yet again, superb customer service. They determined from the picture that it was another fault with the light bar and decided to build me a brand new unit (including driver), send it up, and then I send the old one back.

Since they were going to do that (and hadn't quite started), I gave them more money and they'll be sending me an XB instead. They also told me that my name would be moved to the top of the build queue and it should ship out this week!

Interestingly enough - and this speaks even more about their customer service - she tried to talk me out of an XB because according to my tank size (they have that in their records) and CO2 system (none), the regular unit is already considered 'high light'. Since I might do CO2 down the line, and always like the flexibility of moar powar, the extra $80 to double the PAR output was a no-brainer.

Also also, she told me the head manufacturing guy wants to personally disassemble and inspect my faulty unit to figure out why this happened.

So there you go...I have had some problems offset by marvelous customer service. Other companies, take note - that is how you handle this kind of situation.



O ya. Angels ate all the eggs. Please hang up and try your call again.


----------



## pianofish

Sucks about the light, but hey props for a good customer service! Tank is looking great by the way!


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## rustbucket

Okay, I'll be honest you're making me a little nervous about the light, but I gotta love the costumer service in the end you should get what you paid for. Just hope you don't have anymore problems.

Its great to know about the XB series. I never plan to go back to c02, but was wondering about the two lights still. Well that saves me time and a little bit of money  

The angels should get it eventually, though I won't blame them for not wanting a bunch of kids


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## crazymittens

I get the feeling I'm a weird anomaly based on my last conversation with support. If nothing else you aren't left wondering if their support is any good, eh? 

As added insurance, I might stuff a UPS between the light and timer this time, though, even though the kill-a-watt came up with good numbers. (the UPS does line filtering to a degree)


----------



## crazymittens

Whee, light is stuck in customs. Should be here early next week.

In other news, for a 'no water changes' tank, I've now done two water changes simply because my method of refilling the tank (python) just makes it too easy to do a water change while I'm at it. 

Also...all those ceramic ball thingies I cleverly thought would be fine in the mech area of the sump have clogged it. Guess I'm making a mess tomorrow.


----------



## crazymittens

Wow, the new light is incredible - so bright!!! I really now want to reduce/split my photoperiod just to keep it running at 100%.

The fixture itself is about twice the width of the old one, same thickness. I reused the dimmer and tank mounts. If anyone is on the fence about the XB - do it! Totally worth the $70 difference or whatever it is (for the 6' model anyways).

Will throw a pic up tonight if I get time.


----------



## crazymittens

Quick update...

New light is still awesome, still haven't had time to do some decent pictures.
Yay, angry fish is gone to a new home. Guy from gtaaquaria.com picked him up, hopefully he'll enjoy the new home.
I also drained that tank - it's going into storage. Just no time to deal with two tanks these days.
In other news, I played around with the overflow setup yesterday and managed to find an acceptable siphon configuration. The 1.5" piping is still an issue for the primary siphon, but it's MUCH quieter now, and the secondary siphon is back in action.
The fish also haven't gone berserk from the dual photoperiod...so...that's good.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Sweet! That's all good news.  I look forward to seeing this beast of engineering with the new lighting. :thumbsup:


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## crazymittens

Ok, so the bad news since you're all chipper this morning:


 Sump mech area full of those ceramic balls to be cleaned out (this will be annoying for sure)
 Make a lid for the ex.OF
 Trim the secondary siphon to actually FIT inside the ex.OF
 Properly seal the secondary siphon _ACTIVATOR_ (emphasis mine)
 Properly seal the sump itself around the drains
 Add a pipe clamp for the return line (child proofing measure)

Ideally I need to find some 1" piping and jam it up inside the primary siphon to help with the siphon issues, or make some kind of restrictor cap at the bottom...I'd really be getting into experimental fluid dynamics issues, though. 

Anyways, once all of that is done, this is what I'm thinking long-term:


 *Learn how to properly trim/grow/care for aquatic plants*
 CO2 (maybe if my job situation changes)
 Replacement return pump (if current ones break)

We are so happy with this tank as it is, there really isn't much more to do beyond growing the plants in.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Way to be a buzzkill. :frown: 

Seriously though, I'm glad to hear you're all enjoying the tank and things are working well for the most part. A little tinkering/optimization is always fun, isn't it?  

Rather than make a restrictor cap why not just get a valve of some sort? It may be a little more money, but solutions like that tend to be a better idea in the long run than some experimental DIY contraption. Then again, that could be due to my lousy DIY skills. LOL

PICS D&*N YOU, PICS!


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## crazymittens

Primary siphon has a valve already, but a valve would work better than a restictor cap (adjustable at least). I think the 1" piping inside is the only real viable option - reduces the physical amount of water required to maintain a siphon, thus problem solved. In theory, anyways.

Haha, I'll get pics up this week. Hopefully.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Ah, I misunderstood. The smaller pipe does make sense. Is there any way to replace the in-tank part with a smaller pipe and bushing for the bulkhead?


----------



## crazymittens

No, the pipe is glued into the bulkhead, I'd have to replace the entire assembly.


----------



## crazymittens

Phil, this'll have to do for now. I have no time/desire to break the tripod out for a proper picture of the new lighting. Suffice it to say it's like high noon.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Nice fish, but are they living in an 8"x8" tank?


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## crazymittens

Dagnabbit, Phil!!

Seriously, though. They spawned again. Hence the pic.


This weekend. Really...I pro-...no, not really.


----------



## Phil Edwards

*evil grin*

Congratulations on the spawn. Here's to hoping some of the fry survive. :thumbsup::fish::fish::fish:


----------



## crazymittens

Hm, been a while since I updated.

The new lighting is working great, I've settled on 50-75% with two 4-hour photoperiods (separated by 3 hours). Every 2-3 weeks I pull out a few clumps of green hair-ish algae from the areas that get blasted with light (very top of driftwood and the gutter guard under the light). Aside from that, no algae to speak of.

We had one phantom tetra die a few weeks ago, I think just old age.

Umm...yeah. Plants are growing in nicely. I think the bacopa doesn't like the water or something, it grew well to start, but just isn't lasting. Whatever that feathery plant is called...it's going bananas. The reddish plants are growing really well, too. Vals are coming in, but will probably take a while for a 'forest' to grow out. I'm guessing in 6-8 months (so the 1-year mark) things should be just about where I'd envisioned.

Oh, the angels keep spawning and eating the eggs every 3-4 weeks I think. The black skirt tetras seem (imagination?) to continue growing...the largest has to be almost 3" long now. I still would really like to add another 20 or so cardinals in, there aren't enough of them to really enjoy the colouring. One day.

If I remember/have time I'll post up some pictures. Now that the weather is nice car/home maintenance will be taking up most of my spare time.


----------



## crazymittens

Tank has now been online for almost 8 months.

Fish update

I bought a dozen cardinals a few weeks ago during a BigAl's sale. They promptly all died within a week. Got a 6-month in-store credit for the purchase price.
I believe they brought something in...3 of the 6 existing cardinals have since died (they were purchased ~1.5 years ago, so maybe fluke (pun) timing)
BigAl's suggested I bring in a sample of my water, because 'cardinals are sensitive'.
I tested my water yesterday - [email protected] [email protected] - so unless these particular cardinals didn't like the hardness...must have had something wrong with them?
Two of the black phantom tetras died last week, assuming old age or hassling from the angels.
Angels, black skirts, platies all 100%.

If we get more fish, I think they'll be black skirts. Those things are tanks, and are the only fish (tetras) that seem to enjoy the 'mid-level' portion of the tank. i.e. Where we can see them. I need to read more on this, since they are kinda plain...but hardy, schooling, mid-level fish = what we want.

Plant update

Stuff isn't growing like how I'd expected. I believe due to all your beautiful CO2-enhanced tanks.
So we're going to revisit the CO2 debate.
I really need to get a 'how-to' for pruning/encouraging growth of aquatic plants
The angels destroyed all the Vals - pecking at it pre-spawning

Equipment update

The overflow is working fine as-is, I never did get around to fixing the siphon size issue. It's a little noisy, but nothing obnoxious. One day. Maybe.
My ancient heaters finally died, replaced with something expensive from BigAl's (like $50/ea).
Sump is a beast. Water has been crystal clear 100%.
The new-new-new light hasn't broken yet. So that's good. It is also a beast, currently set to 30%, awaing us moving to CO2. SEE! I knew it was a good idea to get the monster and dim it down.


So yeah...I think we're going to go down the CO2 route. I have been super happy with the tank except for plant growth...so starting the path to CO2 goodness.


----------



## crazymittens

Fish update
One of the angels died - I believe ate too large a chunk of flake food. Kinda sad to see the last one just kinda hanging out. At least the good news is that whatever those cardinals brought in hasn't done any more damage.

I'm picking up some (50? 75? 100?) neons on Sunday because work is starting to pick up and this is the last chance I'll have for quite some time to do much with the aquarium. (logic!...?)

So we'll see what happens. The price is too good to pass up ($0.50ea), so maybe while I won't have a large school of cardinals, a large school of neons is almost as good.

Plant update
And yeah, no CO2, but I still want to keep up the trimming. Plants grow when I trim them. Fun times!

It still boggles my mind how clear the water has been. Gotta do some trimming - moar plants!


----------



## crazymittens

Picked 'em up - 70 (well 69 now that the angel ate one - he's moved to a 'come get a free fish' tank). 

They are schooling with the remaining cardinals, and THIS is what I always wanted in a fish tank. Anyways, we'll see how things go, but so far, so good. They are eating healthily, and apparently are stock imported from Peru - not bred locally.

Tiny little guys, though - most are 3/4", so no bioload fears.


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## lamiskool

Id love to see a vid of the fish schooling, and also at feeding time!


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## maddmaxx

Well 27 pages later.... Great thread!!!!


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## crazymittens

27 pages! Yeesh...my forum prefs only have it showing up to 10 pages. Fancy.

I'll try and do a decent video tonight, the one last night was a bit random. Same with pictures, it really needs to be dark out, lights off.

The good news is that as far as I can tell, the new guys are happy. Also, someone is coming tonight to pick up the angel. Sad, but good.


----------



## crazymittens

Video uploading now...sorry, didn't have time to really go nuts on quality.

http://youtu.be/YZtUVXXIeRI
Edit: I'm assuming that the HD version will show up eventually.


----------



## crazymittens

Huh, guess it's time for an update. June! Yeesh.

The good

The jungle vals are really taking off now that I've started trimming them
New boxing day fish - roseline sharks (torpedo barbs?), got 5 - very nice fish, acclimating well so far
The tank is still pretty much maintenance-free, just top-offs and feeding when I remember

The bad

My youngest son is 'a vertical child' and used the outlet piping as a monkey bar, dislodging it from the sump pumps, causing minor flood (~10G on the carpet) - no issues since we trained him to stop doing that
That spindly plant that was growing like crazy for a while suddenly died off - I think due to me not pruning it

The ugly

A bunch of fish (half dozen) have died over the last 6 months, I presume age
The angels all went belly-up - possibly due to the heavy fighting when initially introduced, possibly due to genetic issues, possibly due to water params

Fishues
Despite the 'mass deaths', we still have 80-90% of the original Tetras going strong, plus the new group of neons stopped disappearing shortly after being introduced. Seriously, the black skirt tetras we got ~2 years ago have not had a single death through all of this. Seems like some fish just don't deal with the water params (i.e. hardness/dissolved solids or whatnot). Ammonia/nitrites/nitrates are 0/0/~10-15 whenever I bother checking them - so considering I do not do water changes, I'd say pretty darn good, and consistent.

Maintenance
Evap rates are something like 5-10 gallons a month, but then I have an open overflow and not 100% sealed sump (95%). So really just 5-10 minutes a month to refill and add a little water conditioner.

Algae grows up near the light (green hair stuff), but I just pull out clumps of once a month or so to keep it in check. I'm thinking that if I can trim/prune to encourage growth, it'll further slow the algae.

More fish?
For Boxing Day sales, the local BigAl's had German rams - standard gold/blue, plus electric blue (plus electric blue balloon!). I'd read they were fine if you had a consistent and established tank, but they did not (could not find?) any females, and the whole parenting thing is kinda why you get them right?

Beyond that, going forward the only thing I'll be adding is neon tetras from local suppliers. The school of 30 or so is the beginning of just what I wanted in an aquarium.


The to-do list

Take some updated pictures & video
Learn how to properly prune/encourage growth of other plants
Reconsider adding shrimp in...maybe this time they won't get eaten...
Do (more) water changes to help plants grow
Some day make a cover for the overflow
Some day seal the sump
Some day get into CO2


----------



## crazymittens

Okie dokie, pictures from the pOtatophone.

Full tank shot









I've been trimming the vals quite consistently and it's paying off, runners galore. The crypts on the right _might_ be growing...but not much. I trimmed a few leaves off every plant in that section a few weeks ago.

The reddish stem plants on the left I've started trimming in the hopes of encouraging growth. The moss is growing quite well, too.

Algae growth near the lights (trimmed today)
By 'trim' I mean, 'grabbed a bunch'...









Fish
Neons and black skirts
Not sure if I mentioned, got a whole whack of these from a local guy. He bought them from some South American wholesaler or something. Originally bought 60-70, their population has been stable for months now, but probably only.. 30? left. Impossible to count. I suspect the black skirts were eating them, but then they grew too large. Probably have grown 30-40% since I got them.








Neons and platy
The last platy. He's a trooper.








Roseline sharks
These could also be 'torpedo barbs', or a whole pile of different names. Supposed to get quite large - 4-5" - so the LFS staff recommended maximum 3-5 for this tank. I thought that was kinda low...but hey. So we got 5.








My keep-my-nose-insidey-hole
I want to get a pair of rams to live here. Make those good-for-nothing tetras swim a little!! Buncha grumps.









Plants
Need this section to grow in








The bottom of this guy started sprouting...








So I took a chunk off the middle, left it floating - anchored by roots








Runners from the vals








This...sword?...has never really thrived, but a 5th leaf!








Anubias finally recovering








Jus' a lil guy...









Bump: Also, I have had a wacky idea to build a custom tank for my desk at work. If that becomes a thing, I think I'll quite possibly build a full-length sump (think 100 gallons) and just fill this tank with neons. Crazy new-year ideas!!


----------



## kzeller

This really is amazing. I just spent the last 2 hrs reading all 27 pages of this thread. I like DIY but I think I would have tapped out a long time ago. VERY NICE. Congrats on the completion, sorry for the losses and a question. How do you like the BML light and if I missed it whatever happened that casued the light mishap, only half of it to light up?


----------



## crazymittens

Thanks, it's really not that bad now that it's set up, zero effort required. Was worth the up-front effort.

This latest BML unit has been fine for...not sure how long. A while anyways. I suspect the first one was just an early-run manufacturing thing, or somebody had a bad day - according to BML their post-mortem indicated a failed solder joint (IIRC). I did have some issues around back-office confusion, but it was quickly resolved. Would buy from them again if that means anything.

I run it at ~50% with two photoperiods totalling something like 7-8 hours (attempt to keep algae at bay).


----------



## kzeller

Do you only have the algae issue at the surface near the light?


----------



## crazymittens

Yep. I suspect that CO2 would resolve that, but it really doesn't concern me that much.

It's only an issue because the tank is so deep - 22" - where the top ~6" is just water really. That means the light has to be cranked up to get down to where the plants are, so anything in that top 6" is getting wayyyy too much light.

I don't dose or do root tabs or anything like that, so the plants will always be beaten out by algae if the lighting conditions are right. ( I think that's how it works... )


----------



## kzeller

Got it. Just wanted to clarify. Thanks


----------



## crazymittens

I feel like these pics are much less potato-cam-ey. I held the phone against the tank to stabilize.

Fish
















FEEESH.








Plants
The reds here are quite intense in person.








Nice healthy growth.

















Have a few videos to upload tomorrow, too.


----------



## crazymittens

There we go, videos uploaded. Nothing fancy! It would be lovely to have a decent camera for this kind of thing. In the mean time - iPotato!

Close up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlIfuIgBBVY

Full tank pan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWiUIEu0ujI

Feeding the fish
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXoR7bnFi5Y


----------



## crazymittens

Big Al's had a sale today, neons 10 for $2.99. Noticed in the store tank that there were a half-dozen already looking kinda weak, so got 40 to be safe.

You can see the difference here between new neons, old neons, and cardinals. When I got the old neons, they were this size. (edit: actually, I lie - you can't really see the cardinals here...but they are like 1.5-2.0x the size of the 'grown' neons.


----------



## tylergvolk

Nice, I love the big school. Making another video? 😄


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## crazymittens

I should do one, ya. Been meaning to post up some pictures, too.


----------



## crazymittens

Huh, well, better nate than lever as they say. A year and a half later...I'll pull the montage from this thread...
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8-general-planted-tank-discussion/1066961-re-baselining-tank-after-few-years-new-post.html

A walk through time...
Here's the full history of this tank. A few of the shots are from the back side...so it looks flipped.

October 2013 - Start date









January 2014









January 2015









January 2016









July 2016









So...what are the next steps...
Well, for starters, going to start doing water changes. I suspect that once the tank's MTS ran out of steam (_assuming that's what happened_), the plants gave up, and thus a large drop in beneficial bacteria, thus fish not happy. I think it's still not awful (I would bet basic levels are fine), but definitely needs some attention - the last 6 months have brought a dramatic decline in plants.

So, some replacement parts for my python system ordered! And finally ordered some long scissors/tweezers! Woo!

Immediate plans

Start doing monthly or bi-weekly water changes (as often as life permits, really)
Looking (seriously) into a drip in/out automation system (constant water changes vs. 25%) - this is going to be crucial to the next few years of this tank's life.

Near-term plans

Ferts/tabs...do I really need them?
CO2 is the answer? (probably not?)
Weekly tank evaluations
Get a more detailed test kit

Long-term plans

Move all fish into the 20G w. XP1
Pull all plants, figure something out for them
Drain the tank, re-do the soil substrate (not MTS this time, some sort of deeper soil/clay/etc bed)
Fix primary siphon issue that's annoyed me for 3 years
Fix ghetto return plumbing that has caused multi-gallon floods more than once
Build some sort of light hood, or make the light/return line look less ghetto
Box in plumbing
Build glass top for overflow box
Build better anti-fish-escape grating
Add one nice big rock, or perhaps two 'tower' rocks?
Seal the sump already (in a less-ghetto way)

So what?
So I mention constant drip water changes and how important that is. Why? Well, the first 3 years were all about 'can we truly run MTS maintenance-free?'. I think the answer is a safe 'yes', but now it's time for a new experiment. 'How long can we keep fish alive?' I really would like a large school of cardinals/neons, but they simply didn't last in this environment. So...if we can keep the platies going longer than 6-12 months, then I would say the tank's ready for a large school.

And the constant drip water changes - this would mean no 'big deal water changes'. i.e. to do a water change with the python, it is an event. 3 small boys are very very very interested in things that create messes. So this has to be automated and a non-event.

I work in the software world, and the principle is the same - not-often large events always have problems. Constant small events make it easier to mitigate risk, improve process, and move faster. (manufacturing has learned this a long time ago) SO! Let's learn from folk and try to automate constant water changes. Saw a thread of a guy in the UK who used a Raspberry PI and optical ATO sensor - I will probably pirate those learnings.

So there we go. The next phase of this tank has started. Plus, we can introduce the young-uns to more tank life than just 'watch the fish'.


----------



## crazymittens

Automation thread here.

Decided my tank journal wasn't really the place for that kinda thing.


----------



## GeoJB

Just a link for me to read later.
thanks for your efforts!!!!


----------



## crazymittens

For the curious, postmortem here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8-general-planted-tank-discussion/1228906-tank-postmortem.html

Looking at a rebuild in 2018...


----------



## Phil Edwards

Heya mittens, you're alive! I'll check out the postmortem and see what I can answer/help with. Let's get this beast turned back into a beauty.


----------



## crazymittens

The great Phil Edwards, likewise!! I thought you left the forum! I saw your replies in the other thread, will work on replying.

Man, knowing that you're contributing, getting excited! Thanks a ton!


----------



## crazymittens

Discovered that Delrin is aquarium-safe (only has issues in high acidity/high temp), so that's what I'll use to fabricate the bulkhead insert (_it machines well, and I can actually get it locally_). Heck, I guess I could make my own bulkheads now.  Hmmmm...

So my next steps will be spread out, most likely. A lot of work stuff, and life with 3 kids is always exciting. But, during the cold months (_when it's unpleasant to be out in the garage_), hopefully all the planning will get done.

Immediate next steps

Contact city for water report, use this to determine starting water params, dosing requirements, water change needs
Overflow plumbing re-design
Water change plumbing design

@Phil Edwards - is this what you'd consider a water report? https://www.durham.ca/en/living-here/resources/Documents/WaterandSewer/OWAWaterQualityReport2016.pdf


----------



## crazymittens

Doing some of the initial design for the plumbing. I'm gonna need a bigger sump...

50G sump









90G sump









That's about the biggest we can physically fit in there. Even as it stands (_haha, get it?_) we'll need relocate the center pillar (_or make it removable_).

Why a bigger sump?

Putting things like pumps, reactors, etc outside of the sump just seems like a bad idea to me. Any kind of leak, it's immediately on the floor. Current design has glued joints everywhere not in the sump.
The Cerges reactor I'd need (_IIRC_) is not gonna be small
I would like to relocate the heaters to the return area, so that when I am inevitably collecting wildlife from the sump drain area, I don't have to deal with fish hiding between fragile heaters.
I have to remove the old sump anyways to drill for the perma-drain bulkhead - getting this one in there was already a huge hassle, might as well just take the next step of putting in a properly sized sump
Sourcing a used fishtank is pretty cheap, relatively. Gonna try and find one for $50.
Picked the 90 because it occupies the same floorspace as a 75. I would settle for a 75 if one came up. (_going from 50G to 75/90G = *36" to 48" width*_)
Finding room for the perma-drain just ain't gonna happen with a 50.

What has to change/be rebuilt if we do this?

Depth is the same, so should be able to recycle some of the lid glass - but new lid pieces will definitely have to be fabricated
The baffles might be able to be recovered, but might have to make more/different baffles - I can recycle the 50G glass if need be (_I doubt anyone wants this "sump" for equivalent glass money_)
Return plumbing will need some work (_but it needs work anyways_) like extending pipes, adding in a flex section
Drain relocation (_need to think about this, lots of facets to consider_)

So yah. Bigger sump.

Budget update
To keep myself sane...time is not included here. Yes, I am _that guy _who complains about daily maintenance, but gleefully spends countless hours building crap.

75 or 90G used aquarium - $50
Glass - $0 (I _will_ learn to cut glass)
Silicone - $20
Return plumbing bits - $25
Drains: 3/4" hard piping - $0 (have some in the garage)
Drains: Delrin stock to make bulkhead - $50?
Drains: 3/4" ball valve - $10
Adjustment to the stand so we can fit the new sump: $0
Perma-drains....TBD...
So we're at ~$150 to replace the sump, given some creativity.

Next up... perma-drain...

Perma-drain v1









Perma-drain theory

There is verrrrry little pressure on this, so it just needs to be a pipe (3/4" most likely) that eventually heads downward (_or at least never heads upwards_)
It'll snake along (_making sure it's super-level_), go through the wall, dump into the floor drain.
We don't care about 'pumping losses' here like we do in return plumbing or siphon-drains, so it can take as many twists and turns as we need
It will have a shutoff ball valve, just in case

Cleaning

For cleanings (_sucking out gunk_), the goal will be do that quarterly, and I'll continue to use the Python. 
To clarify, the removal of waste from the aquarium means water + gunk has to come out somehow - don't see a simpler method than Python

Top-off

I'll plumb in (_somehow_) a cold water line behind the furnace, this will have a shutoff, then mechanical restrictor, then needle valve
Vinyl tubing will dump from the needle valve into a barrel (_5-25G?_) to allow chlorine to evap, plus it can come up to room temp
The barrel will overflow into a glued PVC section that dumps into the sump
The barrel will have a drip tray that dumps back into the floor drain

Question marks

I need to deal with chloramine. Some have done inline filtering, others dose various things. What's the correct solution for a continuous flow system?
What size barrel do I actually need to allow the water to warm up some, plus chlorine to evap? (_garbage can is wayyy too big_)


----------



## crazymittens

Diagramming time! Recycling the stuff from the automation project, but simplified. In my original notes for the automation system, I noted that a mechanical ATO was preferred, but a lot harder to do. Welp...time to make good on that.

Original









Simplified









Detail









I am sure this will change, but the gist is there.

Mechanical systems are simpler - gravity is my output pump, native house water pressure is my input pump
I removed stuff like lighting (_on a mechanical timer_), temperature (_self-regulating_), and the original ATO system pieces
The water quality stuff was really just icing, and operated on the principle that 'CO2 injection is dangerous!' (_which left out 'but not in a low-light system'_)

For chloramine, some thoughts
I did some searching...

A drip system of Prime (_like 1 drop/hour or something_) - suspect this would get expensive
A carbon/chloramine filter pod set (_also expensive, and needs annual/semi-annual filter replacements_)
An automated fish feeder to drop in 'Safe' on a schedule (_or a dosing pump or whatever_)

CO2 system diagram notes

This hasn't changed from my original notes - need more research/apply what I've learned in the Tank Postmortem thread
Controller piece probly will get removed
Cerges reactor design needs review, been a while since I looked at the latest hotness in what folk are doing (_i.e. dual pumps, still a thing?_)


More to come.


----------



## Immortal1

Impressed with the diagrams - good way to keep everything straight in ones mind. 
"_*To keep myself sane...time is not included here. Yes, I am that guy who complains about daily maintenance, but gleefully spends countless hours building crap*_." Had to laugh at this one - sounds WAY too familiar to myself.


----------



## crazymittens

Immortal1 said:


> Impressed with the diagrams - good way to keep everything straight in ones mind.
> "_*To keep myself sane...time is not included here. Yes, I am that guy who complains about daily maintenance, but gleefully spends countless hours building crap*_." Had to laugh at this one - sounds WAY too familiar to myself.


lol. That's why we're here, right?


----------



## crazymittens

Yup, this could work...

Rough sketch of perma-drain plumbing
Some reference - my desk & wall-hutch-thing is the cross-hatch blue, the dark grey is walls, gold is the furnace.










Cold water supply, shutoff, (_needle valve will be just above the reservoir in case of failure_)
Anti-chloramine mystery device
Reservoir/barrel thingy (_maybe big water dispenser kinda thing?_)
Floor drain
Drip tray plumbed into sump drain
Furnace

View of supply-drain plumbing to sump









Fresh water from reservoir
Gravity drain from sump into floor drain

So physically/realistically, this is 100% doable now that there is a floor drain nearby. Where the fresh water enters the sump is up for debate, and frankly is easy to change. Where the drain exits the sump is less negotiable. Might have to get creative with my glass cutting...

What is kinda neat about all this...

If we want to stop the system (_summer vacations_)...just shut off cold water supply
Zero moving parts (_aside from the needle valve_)
Zero electricity required
Zero automation - physics handles automation

So those last 'neat' items will be somewhat mitigated by the 'mystery anti-chloramine device', but still...

Whee!


----------



## crazymittens

Oh, last item is budget...

Copper tee, shutoff valve, piping over to reservoir - $0 (_pretty sure I have all this in the garage_)
Needle valve - $25? (_probably less_)
Adapter from copper to vinyl tubing - $5
Vinyl tubing down to reservoir - $0 (_pretty sure I have some_)
PVC plumbing - $40 (_probably a lot more than I need_)
Bulkhead drain in sump - $20 (_might actually have one_)
Stand - $30 (_or $0 if I can find a simple table or something_)
Reservoir - $15 (_prices new are steep, used range from $5 to $35_)
Anti-chloramine mystery device - $0 (_$?, to start, I can just dose weekly or every few days_)

So that's ~$100 depending on how cheap I can find stuff.

*We are up to ~$250 total so far...*


Next item, sump layout/design...


----------



## crazymittens

Actually took measurements. Has to be a 75. Going with a 90 means there is only 5" from the support beams, which would _guaranteed 100%_ get old fast.

48" will open up a lot of room for rejiggering things, though. For instance, I currently have 6" to house heaters and return plumbing. New design has this being upped to 12", and heaters relocated. That'll make rebellious fish relocation a heck of a lot easier.

Actually looking at what I have now gave me a pile of ideas/improvements, too.


----------



## crazymittens

Sump Layout v1









Primary return area - water flows under baffle and up onto drip tray, lots of room to catch errant fish
Drip tray onto scrubbies - notable is the dam, forcing more water onto the drip tray (_a lot runs off with the current version_)
Heaters and return pumps - the returns will move to vinyl tubing, with a proper Y, and some sort of nice disconnect (_or an edge gasket or something_)
Cerges reactor - it'll dump water back in front of the return pumps, still reviewing latest iterations of this
Secondary and emergency drains - these will dump onto the drip tray, cuz why not, and it'll save space in the fish catch area (_hum. what if a fish makes it into the secondary..._)
Primary siphon drain - 3/4" piping, dumping into the corner, about 1" under water
Perma-drain - has baffles, to allow higher water levels in the rest of the sump, and maintain water levels during power outages, system maintenance, etc
Perma-fill - where the fill will dump

It looks complicated, but kinda isn't, and maximizes space & water volume. Plus, scrubbie area actually increases by ~15%. I'm sure this won't be the final version.


----------



## CharlesV

For the chloramine removal, I’d suggest using an RO pre-filter canister with a catalytic carbon block. They can remove 3,500+ gallons worth of chloramine before needing replacement. 

Hell, if you went that way, you wouldn’t even need the reservoir. Just run the cold water line straight to the tank through the carbon block. All you’d need would be a valve to control flow, and the fittings to hook the 1/4" line up to the cold water line.


----------



## crazymittens

CharlesV said:


> For the chloramine removal, I’d suggest using an RO pre-filter canister with a catalytic carbon block. They can remove 3,500+ gallons worth of chloramine before needing replacement.


Is that the 'right' way to deal with chloramine? Did some looking - the catalytic carbon filters are $25+tax up here. I found a few manufacturers, one stated 3500 gallons at 0.5GPM, but I have no reference on how long it would last at lesser flow rates. I know 'longer' is intuitive, but not always accurate. (_i.e. stuff chemically breaks down over time vs. 'getting full'_)

Are the specs specific to 'water processed over time' (_e.g. 3500 gallons is 3500 gallons, no matter the flow rate_)?
_or_
Are the specs specific to 'volume of water at a specific flow rate' (_e.g. rated for 3500 gallons at 0.5gpm, but 2000 gallons at 1.0gpm, and 5000 gallons at 0.1gpm_)?

The difference matters, cuz I have to know what my filter costs are going to be. Although that being said, not needing a reservoir would equal a year or more of filters, so might be worth it.

Interesting how they actually work, though.

Strip chlorine out of chloramine bond
Strip remaining ammonia out

Whereas normal carbon (not catalytic) only pulls out the chlorine, leaving ammonia. (_I had wondered if the remaining ammonia would matter, given how low the flow rates will be_)

Will do more reading on this, thanks!


----------



## Phil Edwards

Yup, and that's a nice one too. Oh, and you live where my favorite car ever was made. I miss that thing.


A few thoughts. 

0. I'd forgotten just how insane you are about CAD diagramming. 

1. Get some marinara sauce for all that spaghetti.

2. There's no need for a flat piece of glass in the sump. If the intent is to have something to help reduce turbulence when leaving the filter chamber, angle it downwards. Flat won't do much at all.

3. Don't worry too much about chloramines if you're just dripping the water into the tank. If you want, you can use a carbon block in the Cerges, but there you risk losing flow as it gets clogged with crap. Honestly, I doubt a little bit every day isn't going to be a huge deal with 200+ gallons to dilute it.

4. If I see things correctly, you've got the drip line and drain line going into/out of the same chamber in the sump. That's a design no-no. You don't want your fresh water going straight back down the drain. It's better to have it go into the reservoir area. 

5. How are you going to account for evaporation with the perma drain if/when you have to shut off the input?

6. Yeah, dual pumps are still a thing with Cerges unless you want to get a pressure-rated return pump with a higher GPH than you have now and run only one. You'd probably love designing the plumbing required for that.  I like having the 2nd pump in the sump as it helps keep water moving in there which makes dissolving ferts easier. 

7. Get more spaghetti sauce.


----------



## crazymittens

Phil Edwards said:


> Yup, and that's a nice one too. Oh, and you live where my favorite car ever was made. I miss that thing.
> 
> 
> A few thoughts.
> 
> 0. I'd forgotten just how insane you are about CAD diagramming.
> *The following will prove you wrong. Or right. Depending on your definition of insane.*
> 1. Get some marinara sauce for all that spaghetti.
> *Wat.*
> 
> 2. There's no need for a flat piece of glass in the sump. If the intent is to have something to help reduce turbulence when leaving the filter chamber, angle it downwards. Flat won't do much at all.
> *That is a drip tray. It has holes in it. I didn't add them in because that would be a giant pain and I've forgotten how to array stuff in Sketcup.*
> 
> 3. Don't worry too much about chloramines if you're just dripping the water into the tank. If you want, you can use a carbon block in the Cerges, but there you risk losing flow as it gets clogged with crap. Honestly, I doubt a little bit every day isn't going to be a huge deal with 200+ gallons to dilute it.
> *That was kinda what was creeping up in the back of my mind. The guys militant against chloramines are reef and discus folk.*
> 
> 4. If I see things correctly, you've got the drip line and drain line going into/out of the same chamber in the sump. That's a design no-no. You don't want your fresh water going straight back down the drain. It's better to have it go into the reservoir area.
> *See, told you I was bad at this. Perma-drain is in the chamber top-left, Perma-fill will dump right in front of the return pumps.*
> 
> 5. How are you going to account for evaporation with the perma drain if/when you have to shut off the input?
> *The idea is it never shuts off, ever, so this is a non-issue.*
> 
> 6. Yeah, dual pumps are still a thing with Cerges unless you want to get a pressure-rated return pump with a higher GPH than you have now and run only one. You'd probably love designing the plumbing required for that.  I like having the 2nd pump in the sump as it helps keep water moving in there which makes dissolving ferts easier.
> *Well, I already run two return pumps (because I had two, and didn't want to spend money on a single larger one), so a third makes it a party, right?*
> 
> 7. Get more spaghetti sauce.
> *I...don't.........what?*


I am curious what car....


----------



## crazymittens

Chloramine. The deal. Is this.

This topic (_as any topic on the internet_) has many differing viewpoints (_some very creative, some very wrong_). I managed to find an hour or so to research this, here is what I came up with. I believe this to be the most up to date/accurate/fair perspective, given what I am trying to do (_constant fill into a planted aquarium_).

Some good source material
Of the articles I read, this was the best/most scientific, albeit very reef-central:
Chloramine and the Reef Aquarium - Reefkeeping.com
This was an interesting test done by BRS.
https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/video/view/Ending-the-Debate-The-Truth-About-Carbon-Blocks-EP2-The-Results/
This guy did what I was pondering...dosing Prime.
Dilution of Prime in a Dosing system - Seachem Support Forums
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69717

Important notes about Chloramine
(_*from here on out, referred to as CHL*_)

Some municipalities use only CHL, others use chlorine + CHL (_as a secondary disinfectant_). What your municipality does matters, because it dictates your solution - a lot or a little?
Carbon filters break CHL down by capturing the chlorine, and leaving ammonia.
Catalytic carbon captures both chlorine and ammonia, given enough time in contact

Some maths

Amount of water in the system: ~180G
% water I want to change per week: 25% = 45G (_equal to 2340G per year_)
Amount of water to run per 24h: 45 / 7 = 6.42GPD = 0.27GPH = 0.0045GPM (_~180mL/minute_)
That means on a higher-end carbon block I could get...
Assuming 3500 gallons at 0.5GPM = ~1.5 years between replacements
(_if their performance graphs trend similarly, it could last for a verrrry long time, but we'll play it safe for budget purposes_)
At $30/filter, that's $20/year.
And that is a no-brainer. (_Compared to the nonsense that is dosing Prime_)

Curious notes on Seachem Prime

It 'removes' chlorine and CHL - not certain how. Guessing it has some sort of permanent chemical bond or something. (_might add to TDS over time?_)
It traps ammonia, nitrates, etc for 24-48h, during which time your biofilter can deal with it safely
Their tech support recommended carbon for a continuous system (_i.e. not dosing Prime_), because they could not guarantee there would be enough contact time between Prime and bad stuff

Budget comparisons

*Catalytic carbon*: $100-150, plus $20-40 annually, depending on how long the filter actually lasts
*Prime*: $25/bottle (_probably good for 1y_), plus $100-400 for dosing equipment and whatnot, plus you then have to keep tabs on your Prime (_dilution_) bottle levels, and mix the dilutions in advance
Do nothing: $0

So what am I going to do?
To start, nothing. This is an easy retrofit (_drops inline with supply_), and now I know what the deal is. The cold water will dump straight onto the heaters/return pumps, and before I stock the tank, I'll get some chloramine test strips to test the drain water.


----------



## CharlesV

Testing the drain water is probably a good step to take before spending money. If you have any chemical filtration media in the system, odds are good it would be completely removed anyway.


----------



## crazymittens

CharlesV said:


> Testing the drain water is probably a good step to take before spending money. If you have any chemical filtration media in the system, odds are good it would be completely removed anyway.


There is only mechanical and biofiltration happening at present.

On that note, given how awful it is currently to clean the mechanical filters (and thus it never happens), I will have to design in a filter caddy/frame or something.


----------



## crazymittens

Principle of the Cerges reactor
Rather than take the current 'recipe' of buying stuff, it crossed my mind that I didn't fully understand the HOW of a Cerges reactor. As in, if I cannot explain to myself how to make one from scratch, I most likely do not understand the principles involved.

Thus...









Gotta do more searching on those question marks, but I think that's the gist.

Theory as I see it 

CO2 needs contact time with water prior to entering tank
CO2 bubbles need to be reduced in size to make contact time most efficient

*Therefore*: Give the CO2 more contact time pre-tank, and get the bubbles reduced in size as much as possible to make that process efficient.

Will do more reading, but once I better understand the nature of CO2 injection theory, I'll just build something that matches the theory and the Cerges reactor idea - especially since I can possibly use the lathe to make it all fancy-like. (_i.e. not constrained by 'materials easily acquired'_)


----------



## Immortal1

Something of note that I learned regarding reactors - water pressure is your friend when it comes to dissolving CO2. How you generate that water pressure is up to you. Some people have found that running the output of 2 canister filters into the single reactor worked great (lots of pressure from the output pump). Others have "learned" that setting up the reactor as far below the tank as possible yielded similar results. In other words, don't set up your Cerges reactor next to your tank with the top of the reactor at water level - it just won't work very well.

As for one of your question marks - you don't need a filter element in the Cerges reactor for it to work properly. Generally I have found that if I did put a course filter element in the reactor it just got dirty and really did little to prevent bubbles from leaving the reactor.

I did discover, with the Cerges that I built, that I don't need a huge amount of water flowing thru the reactor to make it work (again, think about dwell time being as important as the violence of the incoming water beating the bubbles into submission). My Cerges reactor has a bypass loop with a ball valve in the loop. I can adjust how much water goes thru the reactor and how much goes around it. At one time I was running an AquaTOP 500 canister filter on my tank - lots of flow! I allowed probably 2/3rd of the water to bypass the Cerges. When I changed to the Eheim Pro 4+ Model 350 canister filter, I found that I needed atleast 2/3 of the flow to go thru the Cerges to make it work the same (less canister flow).


----------



## crazymittens

Immortal1 said:


> Something of note that I learned regarding reactors - water pressure is your friend when it comes to dissolving CO2.
> *Nice tidbit! Do you have any sources for that?*
> 
> As for one of your question marks - you don't need a filter element in the Cerges reactor for it to work properly. Generally I have found that if I did put a course filter element in the reactor it just got dirty and really did little to prevent bubbles from leaving the reactor.
> *I recall reading this, too - but almost all Cerges reactors I've seen have had it. A case of 'because this is how we've always done it'? Hard to find folks able/willing to do reasonably technical/scientific tests for this sorta thing.*
> 
> I did discover, with the Cerges that I built, that I don't need a huge amount of water flowing thru the reactor to make it work (again, think about dwell time being as important as the violence of the incoming water beating the bubbles into submission).
> *So you need pressure, not flow, but lots of dwell time?*


So ideally you would have a really long but narrow pipe to give you that? Kinda like plumbing intestines? 

I wonder if a coil would work for that. Get 100' of 0.25" tubing, coil it up, put a nice pump on one end, inject CO2 via a Y at the beginning, dump the output (which could even be mechanically restricted?) in front of the tank return pumps...

If we can find something more conclusive than "I have found that...", I'd give the high pressure coil a shot.


----------



## Immortal1

I don't think I have any sources regarding water pressure. Likely one of the discussion topics on this forum within the last 3 years is where I learned that info.
Really the only tests I have done are on my system - definitely nothing scientific LOL
Pressure, yes. Reasonable flow - nothing huge. At least for the Cerges reactors. The Rex Grigg style is a different story. As for dwell time, not really sure how long is needed. Not something I can really measure so to speak. What I can do is show you a video of mine working (has a clear housing) which may give you a better idea of what is happening inside.

Not sure if the coil idea would work. Yes you would have pressure and dwell time... but I have a feeling it would end up more like the CO2 ladders that were available some time back. They may have worked in a situation where very little CO2 was needed but simply would fail in situations where you are adding a LOT of CO2.

Bump: 








Bump: 



Something to note here is how tall the Cerges reactor is and yet, the CO2 bubbles are mostly at the top - you don't see any bubbles making it down to the bottom of the reactor.


----------



## Wanna Puff

crazymittens said:


> So ideally you would have a really long but narrow pipe to give you that? Kinda like plumbing intestines?
> 
> I wonder if a coil would work for that. Get 100' of 0.25" tubing, coil it up, put a nice pump on one end, inject CO2 via a Y at the beginning, dump the output (which could even be mechanically restricted?) in front of the tank return pumps...
> 
> If we can find something more conclusive than "I have found that...", I'd give the high pressure coil a shot.


A liquid under pressure absorbs more gas. The greater the pressure, the more gas the liquid will absorb. That's how pop works. When you open the pop bottle and release the pressure the CO2 starts bubbling out.

It a big issue for divers because their body starts absorbing the nitrogen from the pressurized air they breath, the deeper they go the more and faster they absorb it.

"Henry’s Law

When a liquid is exposed to a gas, some of the gas molecules will dissolve into it. The number of molecules that dissolve into the liquid depends on the mass of the liquid and also the partial pressure of the gas, its solubility and the surface area of contact."


----------



## CharlesV

crazymittens said:


> There is only mechanical and biofiltration happening at present.
> 
> On that note, given how awful it is currently to clean the mechanical filters (and thus it never happens), I will have to design in a filter caddy/frame or something.


I built this to hold junk in my sump: 


Took about 10 minutes and it works pretty well. I hang it off of one of the baffles. 

I’m not sure if there’s anything in the tank that would break down chloramine or if it would accumulate. My understanding is that it’s a very stable molecule, so I think that there’s a good chance that it would end up accumulating in the tank over time.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Mittens,

The spaghetti thing was about all the pipes and tubes in your sketchup diagrams. I went crosseyed. 

Chevy Monte Carlo SS, Supercharged. Black interior and exterior with silver sport accents. <3 <3 <3

The fundamental theory behind Cerges' reactors are what the guys above have said; create enough pressure and just enough flow to break up the bubbles so they dissolve better. The larger and longer the casing, the better. I originally had 3 x 12" chambers that ended up not working so well even through there were three of them. Changing to a single 4" wide by 22" long chamber made all the difference. Adding a ball valve on the outlet to create back pressure just made it more efficient/effective. if you've got two pumps already discharging into the tank, why not rig up a manifold to one of the pumps so you can bypass the reactor as much as you need then have the reactor and bypass water combine again to discharge into the tank? Some PVC, a few valves, and some cursing later et voila, awesome CO2 system without buying another pump. 

The downdraft tube is there to force the water to go all the way to the bottom to exit, thereby maximizing dwell time. Oh, and remember, in the out and out the in.










Ah, that's a drip plate; got it. 

I r no gud @ redding CAD pikturez.


----------



## crazymittens

Immortal1 said:


> I don't think I have any sources regarding water pressure.
> *Bonus points for linking multiple videos!*


I watched all videos, but aside from the long one on the dual-filter Cerges, still don't really have any more insight into the mechanics of "maximizing CO2 absorption into water". Cuz really, that's the goal here - get the most bang for your buck when injecting CO2.

I really want to understand this now. Gonna make this a research topic. 

Bump:


Wanna Puff said:


> A liquid under pressure absorbs more gas. The greater the pressure, the more gas the liquid will absorb.
> *So that's really another question - at what pressures does CO2 best absorb into water, and at what point do you hit diminishing returns re: -pressure?*





CharlesV said:


> I’m not sure if there’s anything in the tank that would break down chloramine or if it would accumulate. My understanding is that it’s a very stable molecule, so I think that there’s a good chance that it would end up accumulating in the tank over time.
> *Interesting point - I will have to get some chloramine test strips (should do that anyways).*





Phil Edwards said:


> Chevy Monte Carlo SS, Supercharged. Black interior and exterior with silver sport accents. <3 <3 <3
> *Vroom vroom!*
> 
> The fundamental theory behind Cerges' reactors are what the guys above have said; create enough pressure and just enough flow to break up the bubbles so they dissolve better.
> *Right, so what pressure and what flow, and at what point do you hit optimal absorption vs. pressure/flow. This feels like it'll get into fluid dynamics and whatnot... *


Thanks guys, a lot more research to do. IIRC Tom Barr had some articles on his site about this...?


----------



## Wanna Puff

crazymittens said:


> I watched all videos, but aside from the long one on the dual-filter Cerges, still don't really have any more insight into the mechanics of "maximizing CO2 absorption into water". Cuz really, that's the goal here - get the most bang for your buck when injecting CO2.
> 
> I really want to understand this now. Gonna make this a research topic.


Like I said earlier, increased pressure means greater absorption of gases into a liquid. It also means faster absorption. So a CO2 reactor under pressure can operate using a faster flow or reduced surface contact. Using increased pressure with too low a flow will result in the CO2 dispersing into the atmosphere when the pressure drops (ie:. water flows back into your tank and the reduced pressure allows the CO2 to bubble out instead of being used by your plants). While it will waste some of the CO2, it does maximize your plants exposure to CO2. It really depends on how much effort you want to expend to get the right balance, and if balance is not so important, whether you prefer slow growth or wasting CO2.

That being said, if you maximize surface exposure then pressure may not be required. So the higher the pressure, the smaller the reactor needs to be and the faster the CO2 flow can be.


----------



## crazymittens

Wanna Puff said:


> It really depends on how much effort you want to expend to get the right balance, and if balance is not so important, whether you prefer slow growth or wasting CO2.
> 
> That being said, if you maximize surface exposure then pressure may not be required. So the higher the pressure, the smaller the reactor needs to be and the faster the CO2 flow can be.


To start, I'd like to understand the fundamentals/theory and 'ideal reactor looks like...'. Like, there's a difference between 'how much effort expended on implementation' and 'how much effort expended on understanding'.  Understanding costs me nothing but time. Designing 'ideals' costs me nothing but time. 

So maybe the better question is 'what is the ideal reactor, all other things being equal?' (_time/money no object_). Based on what you said, maybe there are ideal reactors for specific situations? Maybe I'm being dumb and not getting what you're telling me, haha.


----------



## agrasyuk

Ideal would be when all the CO2 is dissolved in the water with no bubbles coming out. As bonus without to much of flow restrictions. Obvious









Mittens, been reading your thread through these years. I noticed that you are a person who tends to analyze, break down, plan and overplan). Since I now signed up to the board might as well tell you - dude, I think this time you really really overthinking this.for your application you need to figure out just one thing - how do you want your inflow and outflow arranged. If both are connected to top then use the filter housing. If your setup calls for outflow on bottom then you will go with oversized pipe flowing down type of setup (perhaps a clear one to see the inside). The rest will just magically happen


----------



## vanish

I'm running a beananimal system on my 150G. I use a 1" siphon and its almost perfect for me. So, while I agree 1.5" is way more than you need, you shouldn't need to rip out the 1.5" siphon. You just need a valve (ball will work, but gate is better) on it so you can tune it down. This is critical for this system. Keep trimming down on the flow until there is just the slightest trickle going down the second drain. It'll be dang near silent.

A 1.5" system has a benefit. Something is much less likely to get stuck in it! I had a devil of a time trying to get a wayward pictus out of my 1" pipe.


----------



## crazymittens

agrasyuk said:


> Mittens, been reading your thread through these years. I noticed that you are a person who tends to analyze, break down, plan and overplan). Since I now signed up to the board might as well tell you - dude, I think this time you really really overthinking this.
> *Maybe that's half of why I do this.  I admire your dedication to wade through the detritus that is my build thread. Seriously, though,
> I take great joy from understanding how the systems work, more joy from building it, and then smaller continuous joy from seeing it play out over time.*
> 
> for your application you need to figure out just one thing - how do you want your inflow and outflow arranged. If both are connected to top then use the filter housing. If your setup calls for outflow on bottom then you will go with oversized pipe flowing down type of setup (perhaps a clear one to see the inside).
> *Not 100% sure, but sounds like you are assuming I am running an external filter? This is a sump, so inflow/outflow is already a done deal. The CO2 reactor will dump it's output right in front of the return pumps.*





vanish said:


> I'm running a beananimal system on my 150G. I use a 1" siphon and its almost perfect for me. So, while I agree 1.5" is way more than you need, you shouldn't need to rip out the 1.5" siphon. You just need a valve (ball will work, but gate is better) on it so you can tune it down.
> 
> A 1.5" system has a benefit. Something is much less likely to get stuck in it! I had a devil of a time trying to get a wayward pictus out of my 1" pipe.


I do indeed have a ball valve on the primary. Something to remember that escaped me during construction...

1" piping: 16gpm (gravity pressure)
1.5" piping: 35gpm (gravity pressure)
My system flow rate: 700GPH (11.6gpm)

I don't recall the specifics, but the gist is that for water to flow silently, it needs to fill the pipe. If it can't fill the pipe, you get turbulence because air is introduced. A 1.5" pipe is simply ginormous compared to 1", and trying to flow 11gpm in a 35gpm pipe AND keep it silent simply doesn't work in practice (_something about how the pipe can handle a certain % of back pressure or something?_). I know this, because I spent two solid weeks playing with the ball valve on the primary trying to get it to be stable and silent. Maybe a gate valve could work?

At any rate, gotta tear the primary out and replace with 1", or even 3/4". I am going to do my best to keep the bulkhead (_making an insert_), given that I have a 2" hole drilled in the glass. 

Second point, about 1.5" benefit - you are 100% correct, which is why both secondary and emergency drains will stay 1.5". If something were to block the primary, I have a heck of a lot of capacity in the other two pipes. Make sense?


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## crazymittens

Found some great CO2 videos with actual data attached.
















Some takeaways...

How things are set up, I should have highly oxygenated water, which increases the ceiling of CO2 I can inject, plus provides a safety net for CO2 injection-gone-wrong scenarios (_high gaseous exchange_)
CO2 can be absorbed via water or gas - in a low CO2 injection system, either method (_reactor/mist_) is fine
CO2 concentration is a linear thing (_it takes a long time to reach peak efficiency_), but this is only a concern for high-light tanks
A lot of the general concern (_don't want to gas the fish_) seems to lie around high light/injection rates, and maximizing plant growth levels
Maximizing the CO2 reactor design is not a big issue for my scenario (_low-light, low-growth_), I just want to achieve maximum saturation

Being truly accurate about CO2 levels seems to center around pH levels and dKH, I think? But being accurate is really only a concern around high-light/sub-optimal gaseous exchange tanks.

So all that being said, I think the *key points for me* going forward are:

Keep CO2 bubbles-per-minute low (_specific numbers still something to look into, but the point about "size of bubble counter changes your BPM measurement" was very interesting_)
Use a good-size/good-flow reactor (_the Griggs style is what I'm tending to right now_)

And from reading a lot more on reactor design, the *key principles* are:

Keep CO2 injection point against the flow of water (_keep CO2 in the reactor as long as possible_)
Balanced in-reactor volume & flow = best saturation, keeps bubbles from building up (_need to match flow rates that keep bubble build-up against reactor volume that maximizes saturation_)
The bigger the total water volume (_tank + sump_), the more CO2 you must inject, therefore the larger your reactor should be, and the more it should flow
Cerges or Griggs styles just have differing ways of achieving the above two points (_but if you don't get those two points, they have an air of mystery_  )

So there ya go.  Not rocket science, but was definitely worth looking into! I am sure there is some science/math around 'exact-sizing' your reactor, but it seems to me that more size/flow = best chance of getting that maximum water saturation.

Now when it comes time to build my CO2 system, I can build it right the first time. \o/


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## Phil Edwards

Overthinking's fun, isn't it? Creating an ideal reactor isn't even remotely practical for a plant tank. That would require stupid amounts of chemistry equipment. 

Basically, you're looking at PV = nRT- the Ideal Gas Law. Pressure, Volume, and Temperature are all we're concerned with. At room temperature (25C) and one atmosphere of pressure, then Volume is the only concern. Really? NO! HAHAHAHAHA, I'm full of crap! Why? Because water. Water changes everything.

What you want to figure out is how much flow, turbulence, and dwell time it will take to dissolve X bubbles per second in your reactor, right? For that you need to know discharge (Q=va) where discharge = velocity times the cross-sectional area of your tube/pipe/chamber as well as the Reynold's number to calculate turbulence of flow; plus find the dissolution curve for CO2 into water a various temperatures, pressures, and turbulence; then finally pulling that all together into an equation that spits out diameter and length values for your given parameters. 

Seriously, go with a Cerges. Put a valve on the outlet so you can tune output to the amount of gas you're using, tweak it a bit, and you'll get 99.999% dissolution. Don't worry about the stupidly tiny little bubbles; they'll dissolve in the plumbing. It really is that simple. The pump I'm using can handle the little extra bit of head pressure from dialing flow back so I didn't make the bypass. If you want to make it a bit more complicted, but cool, rig up a bypass so that you get all of the pump's discharge going into the tank. Easy peasy breezy beautiful.

*First plumbing effort. The valve was on the pump rather than the outlet. FAIL. *










*New plumbing- CO2 injection point on inlet. This can handle more gas than I can measure without a flow valve*









*Valve on outlet. SUCCESS.* A gate valve would be nice if you want to get expensive and super fancy.









Remember, in the out and out the in and flow reduction on the out, not the in.


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## crazymittens

Phil Edwards said:


> Overthinking's fun, isn't it?
> *How dare you suggest that*-*oh...oh I see.*
> 
> Seriously, go with a Cerges. It really is that simple.


Yah, you have pointed out exactly what I ended up reading. Unless you're tracking a huge pile of parameters with automation equipment..._dot dot dot_.


Did you come across the venturi stuff Tom Barr did many years ago? That was really the stuff I was curious about. Long story short, he recirculated the CO2 bubble at the top of the reactor via venturi effect. That seemed to me to be a nice improvement idea on the Cerges reactor, although he was doing it with a totally different reactor body.

That being said, kinda thinking the whole '_throw more flow at it, adjust with outflow valving_' way might deal with the CO2 bubble thingy? Like I found the only real issue with CO2 reactors was the CO2 bubble by end of day. Solved by either more flow (_in a Cerges system_) or venturi recirculation (_in a Griggs system_).

The downsides of trying to think through all avenues before actually doing anything...  (_such is the life of a tight budget_) Ok, reactor figured out. Will just do a large Cerges.

Onwards and upwards...

Making some more progress on sump layout, but haven't come across any super cheap 75 gallon aquariums yet. The cheapest folks seem to want to go is $100CAD, which is fine, but enough that I will try and hold out for a better deal. I mean, it's a sump...


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## Phil Edwards

Yeah, I saw Tom's stuff years ago and tried it myself. Got the whole needlewheel impeller and everything. Before that I even had my tank set up with a mazzei venturi blowing into the three stage RO/DI setup like a Cerge's. Talk about awesome, right? It had the whole super mist thing PLUS the dwell time. The venturi sucked a 20lb can dry in two months. Neither the needlewheel nor the venturi worked as well as the simple Cerge's I've got now.


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## hotashes

Thanks for the details gang, I'm on the same warpath, sumped system currently with fish. CO2Art regulated en route, 5kg FE on stand by. Mind ticking on which route to take regarding reactor.. I also ended up struggling to choose as not all info clearly in one place to compare...
However on deeper research I ended up considering the cerges 20" housing, valve on outlet and injection on in.. 

So 100% it's best to runt the water flow into the reactor via the 'out' and the the flow from the reactor leaving from the 'in'?
Would be cool if we could get a transparent central pipe 
Also is the filter housing cpvc so may be difficult to glue/silicone the pvc pipe inside? Solution using an 'o' ring to keep pipe in place?
What are the lph/gph rats to push through the reactor max/min? Remember mine will not be inline and on a independent pump returning to the main return pump.
Thanks


Ashley..
Aqua oak tanks 4'x2'x2' & 5'x2'x2' both freshwater set up on apex Neptune systems. [emoji225][emoji226][emoji245]
Mortgage & Protection Adviser Full Time, Peace [emoji111]🏼️


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## Phil Edwards

hotashes said:


> So 100% it's best to runt the water flow into the reactor via the 'out' and the the flow from the reactor leaving from the 'in'?
> Would be cool if we could get a transparent central pipe
> 
> Also is the filter housing cpvc so may be difficult to glue/silicone the pvc pipe inside? Solution using an 'o' ring to keep pipe in place?
> What are the lph/gph rats to push through the reactor max/min? Remember mine will not be inline and on a independent pump returning to the main return pump.


Yeah, the whole thing depends on the gas coming in at the top, so that means the gas must enter the outlet side. The discharge from the reactor needs to out via the chamber's inlet. Keep in mind, these chambers are meant to be a water filter so the design is to have water entering the center top and flowing through the media and discharge from the outlet. Adding a central tube maximizes dwell time and increases gas dissolution. I know a lot of folks who've gotten confused by the whole "in the out, and out the in" thing. Of all external CO2 reactors, the Cerge's is the one that folks benefit most by having visuals to work with.

As far as getting the central tube in, I put a ton of silicone in the space the pipe goes into and shoved it in hard. More silicone was applied around the pipe once it was in. Letting it cure for at least 24 hours (more if possible) is important. I've had no issues with the pipe coming undone.


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## crazymittens

Well now that CO2 is figured out (_still not sure if we'll have budget for that this year - tank rebuild, yes, CO2, uncertain_), it's on me to continue the push.

Gather information: Get water tested
Planning: Figure out substrate composition & dosing schedule
Planning: Figure out plants
Planning: Figure out fish/shrimp
Begin action: Find a new sump tank


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## crazymittens

There's a bulkhead narrower in here somewhere.... 










That's a foot of 2" Delrin round stock. Cost $32 before tax - and is exactly why manufacturing in North America is dying. Nobody is willing to pay $10 (plus whatever $ it takes to actually transform stock into a part) for a tiny adapter piece. After the amount of time I spend machining, measuring, electricity/supplies, etc - it'll probably be "worth" $100-150. For one part! Haha, good thing I enjoy this.


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## Phil Edwards

Looking forward to seeing what you make with that hunka hunka burning plastic.


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## crazymittens

World's largest 75-gallon tank.
















So now we have a conundrum...
If you didn't catch that, I just bought a 90-gallon tank, advertised as a 75-gallon, and foolishly didn't ask for measurements. Even when picking it up, something tweaked in my mind, but I'd already agreed to buy it...

I am inclined to make it work, but had really not wanted to get into modifying the stand. I guess I could build some risers and add cladding... hm. Hmmm....

The inside "working area" of the stand allows 26" height. As you can tell, that's ~25" - a 75-gallon is 21" high. I guess even 3" was being ambitious

So what should I do?

Take it apart, cut down the front panel
Re-sell it, find an actual 75 gallon tank
The third option: Build risers for the stand


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## Shaythesalmon

Ok, I honestly did not read this entire journal. 

My head is spinning with all the possibilities and the complexity of the systems. 

Are you and Phil Edwards both engineers? Because this would give my brother and dad a run for their money for sure.

For my first tank I am determined to keep it simple. 

Love learning from both of you though


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## crazymittens

Phil actually has a real education and knows things - I just google it and draw conclusions. Definitely not an engineer, but building things is fun. FWIW, my first tank had a sump.  Haha! Do it! You gain so much! And if you have a dad/brother into fabrication - you're golden!


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## Phil Edwards

I say break it down, get the glass cut to ideal dimensions, and rebuild it. That's something the Crazymittens I know and love would do.


Shay,
I'm an environmental scientist and am the farthest thing from being an engineer you can imagine. I've just designed and built a lot of aquarium filtration over the years.


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## crazymittens

I slept on it, and I'm removing that as an option, lol. It'd be two tubes of silicone for sure, and after shipping that'd be like $50. Not to mention how the trend of my glass cutting results has not been positive, haha...

I'm super tempted by the risers option, but this is what the math adds up to:

26" current headroom, 90G tank is ~25" high
ideally need ~6" or more to get your arms in there
means raising the tank that much, which obstructs 5" of the ~23" display

I think the wiser choice is to re-sell this and find a 75G tank. Then, worst case, I can add small (1-2") risers to provide more room.


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## vanish

A 75g even sounds like a pain to work in that amount of space.


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## crazymittens

It's only 2" higher than the 50G I have now, wouldn't be terrible given how little I'm actually inside the sump. Kinda super looking like I'm pushing myself toward a stand rebuild. Dangit. Someone better buy this 90G...


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## vanish

crazymittens said:


> It's only 2" higher than the 50G I have now, wouldn't be terrible given how little I'm actually inside the sump. Kinda super looking like I'm pushing myself toward a stand rebuild. Dangit. Someone better buy this 90G...


Let's admit it then. You don't like having aquariums, you like building things.


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## crazymittens

vanish said:


> Let's admit it then. You don't like having aquariums, you like building things.


Shush, you.


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## Phil Edwards

I second that statement.


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## crazymittens

lol which statement?

I've put the 90G up for sale. Feels like laziness on my part "just settling" with whatever comes my way. And I'm not in a rush to start this project, so there we go. The price I'm asking for it is quite good, comparatively, so hopefully it'll sell soon - not a fan of having a glass box sit in my garage. 

This afternoon (_new work policy says on-call person, at end of their week on, gets the afternoon off!_) I might take a crack at machining some delrin, just to see how it works. I'm told it machines like butter, but releases formaldehyde if you get it too hot. Ha! Also going to run the melting furnace...and maybe even make some aluminum muffins...


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## vanish

Its all good, I'm just teasing! I actually generally enjoy the process of planning and building a system about as much as actually having one running. But its really expensive to just continuously build new systems!


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## Phil Edwards

vanish said:


> Its all good, I'm just teasing! I actually generally enjoy the process of planning and building a system about as much as actually having one running. But its really expensive to just continuously build new systems!


Truth.


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## crazymittens

Finally sold the 90G (although took a $20 hit). After pricing out a decent cutter and SCS1200, it'd cost me another $70-80, which would turn a $120 tank into $200...on a $100 budget. 

So back to searching. Thankfully I'm not in any kind of rush, although 75G seems to be a weirdo size, very few of them show up for sale.


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## Functional

Derlin does machine line butter...even at lower speeds and HSS it produces an excellent finish. I only wish steel/AL were as easy to work with! I just keep a small shop fan blowing over the work piece but I've never smelt anything when cutting into it.

very nice journal by the way!


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## crazymittens

Functional said:


> Derlin does machine line butter...even at lower speeds and HSS it produces an excellent finish. I only wish steel/AL were as easy to work with! I just keep a small shop fan blowing over the work piece but I've never smelt anything when cutting into it.
> 
> very nice journal by the way!


Haha, it's been a journey. And thanks for the tip about the blower, will keep that in mind! Some further reading on the subject indicated that you really have to be abusing things to get the formaldehyde to come out. I still am learning about HSS grind geometry (_specifically flycutter geometry is what's imploding my head right now_), very much a newbie in machining, so tips are welcome.


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## Functional

crazymittens said:


> Haha, it's been a journey. And thanks for the tip about the blower, will keep that in mind! Some further reading on the subject indicated that you really have to be abusing things to get the formaldehyde to come out. I still am learning about HSS grind geometry (_specifically flycutter geometry is what's imploding my head right now_), very much a newbie in machining, so tips are welcome.



I'm going to assume since you are looking at a flycutter you are using a mill and not a lathe? The bulk of my work is building precision rifles so I dont have much mill experience other than minor stock inletting. Lathe I do much more work on. With the amount of cutting I do the tool holders with indexible cutters (or full form threading bits) are what I use and I just hand grind the specialty stuff. Arthur Warner makes very affordable but very good tools that are worth every peny. The time it takes to hand grind and ensure you have the right geometry takes quite a bit of practice to get it right and get it right quickly. This is why I only grind specialty tools and use the indexibles and just touch up the edges with a diamond hone file. You basically just follow the already ground form and lightly touch it up..only takes 2-5 light passes to freshen it up..any you always have 2 or more sides to each cutter. For speeds and feeds you can use the machinists handbook (worth the purchase if you plan on doing metal work often) or getting a general idea online (practicalmachinsts forum is a great source). Every machine is different and some do better at higher speeds some do better with lower...some like taking heavier cuts and others light cuts. All depends on weight of machine, how tight the machine is, how you have it anchored...just have to learn your machine. 

The Derlin I turned didnt mind a heavy cut with a medium feed and a spindle speed in the low/med 200s. 

Hopefully you dont mind me cluttering up your thread with this...feel free to PM me...


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## crazymittens

Functional said:


> I'm going to assume since you are looking at a flycutter you are using a mill and not a lathe? The bulk of my work is building precision rifles so I dont have much mill experience other than minor stock inletting. Lathe I do much more work on. With the amount of cutting I do the tool holders with indexible cutters (or full form threading bits) are what I use and I just hand grind the specialty stuff. Arthur Warner makes very affordable but very good tools that are worth every peny. The time it takes to hand grind and ensure you have the right geometry takes quite a bit of practice to get it right and get it right quickly. This is why I only grind specialty tools and use the indexibles and just touch up the edges with a diamond hone file. You basically just follow the already ground form and lightly touch it up..only takes 2-5 light passes to freshen it up..any you always have 2 or more sides to each cutter. For speeds and feeds you can use the machinists handbook (worth the purchase if you plan on doing metal work often) or getting a general idea online (practicalmachinsts forum is a great source). Every machine is different and some do better at higher speeds some do better with lower...some like taking heavier cuts and others light cuts. All depends on weight of machine, how tight the machine is, how you have it anchored...just have to learn your machine.
> 
> The Derlin I turned didnt mind a heavy cut with a medium feed and a spindle speed in the low/med 200s.
> 
> Hopefully you dont mind me cluttering up your thread with this...feel free to PM me...


I certainly don't mind, but Phil might start to get annoyed.  . Will DM you.


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## crazymittens

Hm. A 4' 65 gallon just popped up on Kijiji. 48L x 16W x 20H

I'd lose 2" of width. Hm. Decent price, too.


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## crazymittens

Welp, here it is. A weirdo-size 70-gallon (48x18x18) showed up for a good price, albeit a bit of a drive. Only downside is it's a 1995 manufacture date, but it is a Miracles tank. Gonna do an extensive water test, but given the layout, and baffles providing extra support, and it won't ever see a full tank anyways, probably nothing to worry about.


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## Immortal1

That is an odd size, but for your intended purposes the 18" height is helpful.


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## Phil Edwards

Those are crazy dimensions, but would make for a cool tank...or sump.  Looking forward to seeing this thing get built.


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## crazymittens

Indeedily doodily. Gotta get it all cleaned up and do a full water test as a next step. But for that, have to wait until we are out of freezing temps (so the hose is available). 

Gonna start investigating the overflow options in the meantime...


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## vanish

Those are awesome dimensions for any application, imo.


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## crazymittens

Seriously, that fish is invincible and/or eternal. _The Eternal Fish_

Life has also been pretty crazy, cannot believe it's already fall. But I'm finally getting around to working on the sump, regardless of the state of Mr. Fish. Got it all cleaned up, scraped down, and it's leak testing in the garage right now.

http://www.practicaltech.ca/jpg/aquarium/125g/rebuild/75-sump_cleaning.jpg

http://www.practicaltech.ca/jpg/aquarium/125g/rebuild/75-sump_leak_test.jpg

I will give this a week to leak. (_yar!_) Then I'll move it into my office for 'annoyance storage', and start planning the actual project to revitalize ye olde tanke.

Edit: Pictures don't work because my ghetto DIY image hosting doesn't do https. Protip! The image auto linker forces https! (even if you specifically type in http!) Yay further unplanned work.


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## crazymittens

Fish continues to be eternal. I continue to be ok with that.

The sump tank leak tested fine, still in the garage, never got it into annoyance storage. Possibly why the fish is still alive?

Something curious though is how well this whatever it is plant is growing. I rescued one tiny frond from the bottom and put it up on top of the overflow grille. After 8 months or so it's really taking off, and roots are all over the place - down the sump drains, into the circulation pumps, haha.

The timing of all this is still up to that fish. 

http://www.practicaltech.ca/jpg/aquarium/125g/125-20190202-growth.png
http://www.practicaltech.ca/jpg/aquarium/125g/125-20190202-growth2.png
http://www.practicaltech.ca/jpg/aquarium/125g/125-20190202-growth3.png


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