# Why Aquasoil?



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

In your shoes, I'd go with Eco. 

ADA AS has superior nutrient content, but you can make up the difference with dosing the water column if that's the direction you want to go. The 2 cost about the same over on the West coast, but on this coast we pay quite a premium due to the shipping charges.

My own personal favorite is Flourite black.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

I have Aquasoil II and I haven't had any green water and my plants don't have any trouble staying in the substrate. My aquarium was cycled within 3 weeks and the only bacteria I've added were from aquarium plants I put in the tank.

Now I do have tannins, but tannins are beneficial and will lower your pH to a level that most plants and fish prefer. And you will also get tannins if you add a piece of driftwood to your tank. Check my 16 gallon Journal, that's the tank I have the ADA Amazonia II in.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I personally would go with AS. As long as you don't stir it up it's pretty much the "Substrate for Dummies" in terms of growing plants. Just provide light and co2. Just change water once a week religiously. The only thing I've really added to the water column for the first six months is Potassium and micros so you save money there. Also at startup if you do everything you should do the tank will cycle quickly with few issues.


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## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

I agree. I've tried Eco-complete and Aquasoil - I love the Aquasoil II the best. If you have the money, buy it. Very much worth it!


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

AS is good stuff, but I'm biased towards potting soil in my tanks. It has just as much, if not more, nutrients than AS and contains enough to last for several years. And no ammonia spike to deal with.

Anyway, the benefits of AS have been pretty much already stated. Eco's not bad, but it has a tendency to harden your water, rather than soften it like AS. If you're planning on discus or something, Eco may not be the best idea.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Guns,

A couple of things that I read here. 

1) Eco complete is easy to work with.
2) AS is easily distrubed and for a beginner who is likely to be moving things around a lot, AS can create headaches.
3) after a while, AS becomes depleted and you are back to having to fertilize your tank.
4) A tank with either will have to cycle, Eco can take a few seed fish quickly, AS ammonia spike may kill them. 

I have never used either. Reading here from those who have, including Tom Barr I drew these conclusions:

-AS will get you a fast start with plants, may prove a nuisance to work with as you learn and will eventually need fertilization anyway
-Eco is easy to work with and will work fine, though you will have to fertilize right off the bat.

Given the eventual need for fertz in with both subtrates, I would go with Eco. Look up Tom Barr's posts where he discusses this. His conculsions are based on some research.

You can't go wrong either way really. For s first planted tank, I vote for keeping it simple with Eco.


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## alan j t (Feb 13, 2008)

since everyone here is giving there friendly opinion.
i think its good if your trying to grow hard plants and or have water on the harder side. or to soften your water and breed some rcs or crs or other expensive shrimp/plant.
i have it in my 40 breeder and the plants are doing very well but i just wanted to try the best and see for myself.

i kinda think its overrated unless you have specific goals that you couldn't acomplish with the other mainstream substates or RO


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## justinq (Dec 6, 2006)

I know that a lot of people like AS, some people REALLY like it and I'm a little concerned I'll get jumped on for saying this, but... I used AS from the start on my 30 gallon high tech tank, and I don't think I would ever use it again unless I was doing a small (10 gallons or so) high tech tank with very difficult plants. AS does grow plants well, but it was a real PITA for me to work with. Any time I disturb it even a little, I get a giant mud cloud. In the beginning, the cloudiness was so bad that I could do a full water change and still not be able to see the back of the tank. The cloud was brown and the ammonia was fine, I never had an ammonia spike with it, but I also started the tank with Bio-Spira so that could be why. It was just a big, ugly cloud of mud. It still gets nearly as bad, if I even move a few things around, there's a cloud. Forget trying to change the hardscape or move well rooted plants. You pull up anything and it looks like the mud version of some avalanche footage. It's ridiculous. This is why I say I'd consider it for a small tank - I can easily change out all the water if necessary. Some people have told me I must have got a bum batch, which is quite possible, but I've heard of the mud issue from enough other people to think that if it is a manufacturing issue, it's not worth the risk versus the expense. It's not like you can tell it's going to be muddy until it's already in your tank and wet.

I was also never able to get AS to hold a slope or anything. I made the mistake of being duped into buying "powersand" to go underneath it, which afterwards I realized was totally unnecessary, and the ugly powersand all ended up on the top of the AS anyway. Apparently it's lighter or something, because any time the substrate was disturbed at all, tons of powersand would come up. I could never get it to stay reburied, I had to resort to picking it out by hand because it was so ugly, and I eventually gave up on that because there was always more to come up. And once that powersand is on the surface, it grows algae like crazy, so then I had chunks of ugly, green powersand instead of ugly, biege powersand sitting on the top of my substrate. I could have done a clado foreground with the chunks of powersand if I wanted to. The moral of the story: if you DO go with AS, don't add powersand.

Also, in my experience, fert dosing was still necessary even in the beginning. I tried without ferts, and that did not work because my tank started to get different kinds of algae based on nutrient deficiencies in the water, and my plants started to show deficiencies. This stuff wasn't cured, it would just go from one problem to the next until I gave in and started dosing EI. Since then I've also tried PPS-Pro, and that works too, but whatever the case is it became clear to me that there needed to be some balanced nutrients in the water despite the fact that I had Amano's miracle substrate. The way I hear it, Eco Complete doesn't have much in the way of available nutrients, but it does absorb what's in the water. If I have to go to the trouble of dosing the water column every day anyway, why not go with a cheaper and easier to work with substrate that will absorb things anyway. I could be wrong about the technicalities of how it works, that's just my understanding from what I've read here. Whatever the case is, I've seen PLENTY of excellent looking tanks using Eco Complete, and I've seen Eco Complete tanks growing pretty much any kind of plant you can think of, I personally believe that's probably based more on lighting, CO2 and nutrients than the substrate itself, especially considering that most difficult plants are stem plants of some kind.

These are just my experiences, but I'd go with Eco. I'm doing an Eco cap on a MTS tank now. I know some people are asking why I'd do MTS if I had a problem with mud, but see, if I'm going to have a mud cloud I want it to be because I actually DO have mud in my tank. If I voluntarily put the mud there, I'm okay with it. :tongue:


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## nismo tetra (Oct 11, 2009)

I have eco in my 20 gallon. I have to say I haven't had problems thus far with it. It's not cloudy or anything when messing around with it. I do use root tabs and dose regularly though. I also just started a 5.5 gallon and went ahead and used a 3L bag of ADA amazonia II just to see what its about. Its been running for only a day but my water is not cloudy at all. As long as you don't start pouring water vigorously I don't think you will have a problem. I used a big cup and poured water on a rock in the hard scape and let it trickle down the sides. The only problem I saw with the ADA is that a few pebbles want to float. No big deal. I also noticed that the ADA kind of sounds like rice krispies when adding water. Snap crackle pop. There seems to be a lot of air trapped in it to. When I adjusted a rock and planted some plants, lots of air bubbles came out. Kind of like if I was adding co2. I don't know, I guess I will have a more informative opinion in the coming months.

I would suggest starting small with any fish tank and get the basics/characteristics down of a product before going full throttle with it in a big tank.


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

Well if i would set up a new tank i would go with eco. AS seems like its for experienced planted tank ppl and it takes time for the amnoia spike and such. I have eco in my 29 gallon and in my old 10 gallon before it cracked. Looks great and very easy to work with. Holds down plants good and look good to. No cloudyiness and i put fish in 12 hrs after i put the substrate in. Keep in mind eco is not a good choice if u have hard water. My tanks ph is 7.6 and the water is hard on the gh side. If ur gonna have co2 then eco will work just fine.


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## marrow (Feb 4, 2007)

I inherited some used aquasoil from a mate of mine and other then the bloody powersand stuff growing great globs of algae, the substrate itself did not get really cloudy (other then the initial three days when I dumped it in) when I moved plants around and it held them down very well. Plants grew gangbusters in it. It also looked more pleasant then Eco. I had Eco and after 6 months I yanked it out, the stuff is just plain ugly, it looks like somebody swept a parking lot and threw it a bag and threw some water on it. Now I just use Colorquartz since I column feed anyway.


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

It usually takes about 4 weeks to cycle a new tank if you don't have a seeded filter or can add other equipment from an established tank. And it doesn't matter what substrate you have. I didn't get a huge ammonia spike with ADA that was out of the ordinary, in fact I dosed extra ammonium hydroxide to feed the bacteria and like I said mine was cycled in 3 weeks. 

I have also never had problems with cloudiness, crackling like rice-crispies, floating granules, or air pockets trapped in the substrate (which in my opinion can occur with any substrate). 

IMO the only thing, aside from nutrients, that is important to consider is your tap water pH and hardness. If your pH is already below 7, you want to be careful using ADA Aquasoil or it might drop too low for most livestock. 

Initially the pH, kH and gH will really drop, but it will all go slightly back up the first 2-3 weeks after setup.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

There's a full analysis of aquasoil, both old and new just released over on thebarrreport.com in the newsletter section. Neat findings.

Anyhow, I've used EC and ADA AAS I for my tanks. Aquasoil definitely mucks up, but I find it clears with good filtration; be sure to include a fine layer of filtration in your canister. I have not had an easier time growing plants than with this substrate, and it's especially useful for dry starting a tank.

EC is still definitely a good choice, and it does have a certain amount of cation exchange capacity (CEC) that will uptake nutrients if you dose the column around EI levels. If you have lower levels of filtration or you expect to move things a whole lot, EC is a good choice. I recently recommended it over AS to a LFS while doing work on their tank for this precise reason.

Once you find yourself able to start a tank, make a couple changes now and then, but largely leave the tank alone, then you should consider a switch over to AS. Keep the old EC around though; it's handy stuff. Someone somewhere near you will eventually want to start up a planted tank of their own, and nutrient loaded EC is a great gift to someone just starting.

The one thing I will say is that I have been repeatedly disappointed by EC's quality control. Over half the bags of it that I've bought have raised KH/pH in my tanks for months at a time, sometimes up to a year. In the latest bag, I actually found small marine crustacean shells mixed in. I complained to carib sea, and they did not even have the decency to give me a response. I strongly recommend checking over any EC you buy very carefully. Rinse a small quantity of it repeatedly, soak it out, and test it compared to your tap water. If the pH is still high after a few days of doing this, take the stuff back.

ADA AS has had its own issues, though I've never run into them. I haven't heard so many problems with it lately; perhaps the issues have been fixed. It would be nice to hear an update from ADA as to whether the issues have been corrected.

-Philosophos


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## nismo tetra (Oct 11, 2009)

interesting philosophos. As my tank water with EC has very high GH readings compared to my tap. But it has slowly gone down and is now only 3 drops higher than my tap water. I kind of wondered what would make it so much higher. That might be it. Oh well everything seemed to be doing fine. That question was just always in my head though.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

The GH could be increasing as a result of fertilization. The biggest hints are pH and KH IMO. You could soak some RO or DI water in EC for a few days then test it through GH; that would probably give you a clue.

-Philosophos


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## Indignation (Mar 9, 2008)

I had the same result as philosophos with EC, it spiked my kH insanely high for 6 months. Upon closer inspection, I also found small chunks of shell. I had a very different experience from their customer service dept though... called them up, they were polite and quick to send me replacement bags. (plus an extra bag!) 
I still have the bags, as I've since switched to aquasoil amazonia. AS is pretty amazing stuff,far and away gives the best results for me. 

I'd also echo philosophos" statement about Tom Barr's recent report on AS, some very interesting findings there. I'd recommend giving it a read, sometimes our assumptions aren't correct.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> The one thing I will say is that I have been repeatedly disappointed by EC's quality control. Over half the bags of it that I've bought have raised KH/pH in my tanks for months at a time, sometimes up to a year. In the latest bag, I actually found small marine crustacean shells mixed in. I complained to carib sea, and they did not even have the decency to give me a response. I strongly recommend checking over any EC you buy very carefully. Rinse a small quantity of it repeatedly, soak it out, and test it compared to your tap water. If the pH is still high after a few days of doing this, take the stuff back.


There was also the issue of the contaminated bags a few years ago. The fluid inside the bag along with the substrate was a milky white. It raised PO4 and threw parameters way out of whack.

As far as at ADA Aqua Soil is concerned, there had seemed to be a possible issue with the Amazonia Aqua Soil II. It broke down very quickly. I believe the bags were recalled by the vendors and replaced. I really haven't heard of an issue since. Although these descriptions of muddiness are making me wonder a bit. Aqua Soil should not be muddy.


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## nismo tetra (Oct 11, 2009)

EDIT: Nevermind, I have to subscribe. 12.95 for a year.

How can you read the report by tom bar. I made an account but it says I don't have permission to access the page? Do you have to have a certain post count to read them? I can get into the forums and read, but just not the newsletters.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

The subscription is well worth it. I've gotten more for $12.95 than I have out of any subscription or book that I've bought for the same price. There's a lot more than just ADA product analysis to the members section.

Aquasoil breaking down is a new one to me. I wouldn't mind hearing the details. Still, broken down aquasoil hasn't lost it's value; I'm sure we all remember this tank:









The aquasoil underneath turned to mud from being overworked. I wouldn't want to risk disturbing it, but the slopes he got out of the aquasoil sure were worth it. Here's an interview with Peter Kirwan talking about the entire process and pictures showing some muddy aquasoil:
http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazine/Magazine/Interview-with-Peter-Kirwan.html

-Philosophos


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## Guns286 (Sep 17, 2009)

Wow, thanks for all the info! I'm still undecided. It looks like there is pro's and con's to both. I guess the easiest way is to let my tap water (hardness) make the decision for me. I'll let you know how I do.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Aquasoil breaking down is a new one to me


Well, you are still on the newish side around here, so I am not surprised. 

When it first came out, the Amazonia II broke down almost instantly. The, shall we say "nuggets", just came apart. Turned to dust and mud. The product has since been fixed. It lost it's value because it was just an unmanageable mud.

I have a 38G with Aqua Soil that has been up and running for a couple of years now with no visable breakdown. There is mulm for sure, which looks like breakdown, but on a whole the product is just fine.


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

New to the site, not to planted tanks. If it's issues with AS II then I've probably been ignoring it; AS II seems more of a cover for issues with AS I and turning the water to soup under some conditions related to hard water. I wish ADA would just say what's going on rather than leaving us all in the dark.

-Philosophos


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I had 2 bags of ADA AS II break down on me but I was compensated by the retail and received replacement bags of AD AS I. I have hard water where I live so for me there is no other choice other then aquasoil if I want to grow some of the harder plants that require softer water.

There are some issues but the positives certainly.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> AS II seems more of a cover for issues with AS I and turning the water to soup under some conditions related to hard water.


I don't follow. I don't know what you mean when you mention "soup".

I use and have used Aqua Soil Amazonia I and have hard water, and have never had an issue. Yes, there is a rise in ammonia, but aside from that I have had no problems. I have never had muddy, mirky water. I have never had the substrate turn to mud or mush.

What makes you believe Aqua Soil II is a cover for AS I? Again, aside from the ammonia spiking, I had never heard of a problem with Aqua Soil I. Only time a problem came to light was when version II hit the shelves. THEN there was some explaining to do!  I am curious!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

NJAquaBarren said:


> Guns,
> 
> A couple of things that I read here.
> 
> ...


Well, the only real drain over time, at least if you add ferts to the water column as well, is N. So ADA AS I last a decade perhaps?

Probably close, as well as most clay soils, DIY etc approaches. Not sure who long without dosing things to the water column at all other than fish waste.
But likely a long time except for N.

I think the biggest issue is habits/pruning, uprooters, movers of plants etc, and other patience related approaches.

If you can just uproot small patches at a time, and top the others, then ADA AS and m9ost nutrient rich sediments work wonderfully. I use mostly black flourite sand for aesthetics, or a dolomite white sand.

I do not like 2 types of sediments. Never have, never will. 

ADA AS in a 9 liter bag requires no rinsing, and is = to two bags of EC, so it's cheaper in most cases.

BTW, you can still add worm castings, or MS, various mixes to the lower layer for EC/flourite, Dolomites etc. Add a little less since if you move it around much, it'll come up, so you need some common sense approaches to gardening to keep it in place. I like to redo things, adjust as I go etc.
So a single type is nicer for me and I like the ADA As look and performance. 
Other tanks might have just plain old aesthetic sand, or a layer of rich in the back and the aesthetic in the front etc.

Flourite, EC offer virtually no nutrients for plants, more just a good place for bacteria and cycling.

Plan on the water column dosing for those sediments exclusively. 
Not hard if the tank is lower light moss/fern/swords, Crypts type tank since demand is less and lower light is easier (what ADA uses and what Tropica suggest, as well as myself).

Might be of use to think about the total nutrient/resupply in the aquarium. You have two locations for them, one long term and really easy, the other easy to resupply indefinitely at a lower rate.

Both can get the job done without much play from the other, or you can use both to provide nutrients without any demands from the water or the sediment for any species, or any soil type.

Covers all possible bases and is pretty easy/resilient.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've never used ADA AS II nor did the test on it, but we can predict some things about it vs the other.

Still, I have not had issues with ADA As other than it is messy when uprooting a lot of plants, redoing/aquascaping tanks etc.

I think that vs the labors, it is worth it to simply add fresh ADA As, not from the loss of nutrients, rather, to reduce the godawful mess and muck

This is experience speaking and testing as well.

Still, if you deep vacuum it and remove as much silt as you can, and then do a few water changes, you can redo large sections. 

I really have not found any issues personally with ADA AS I for what it is.
I like and use it, looks nice, offer a good single sediment type for planted tanks, I do not mind paying some $ for it. I can go Church of the Cheap also and have, did it for many moons, but like this product. I like to upgrade little by little as I progress in the hobby also.

Whether it be sediment, water column, tanks, stands, current, filters, CO2, monitoring, testing, collecting etc etc.

You might not like Killi fish today, 10 years from now you might become a Killi fish freak, same for nice ADA like stuff vs cheaper alternatives.

If you get a product like AQUA aqua soil I've seen overseas, then you might want that as it's cheaper and a bit nicer than ADA.

No vendors sell it here however.

So that might change things overtime.
You change over time also

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I have to change out my AS every 1.5 years roughly or the sediments that are produced as it breaks down cloud my tank and settle on the leaves eventually leading to leaf loss and algae on the leaves. But still I use it and pay for it because it gives me the results I want in my particular water parameters.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

nismo tetra said:


> EDIT: Nevermind, I have to subscribe. 12.95 for a year.
> 
> How can you read the report by tom bar. I made an account but it says I don't have permission to access the page? Do you have to have a certain post count to read them? I can get into the forums and read, but just not the newsletters.


I'd take another look, the report is free on the main page of his site and you don't even have to register.

- Brad


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> I have to change out my AS every 1.5 years roughly or the sediments that are produced as it breaks down cloud my tank and settle on the leaves eventually leading to leaf loss and algae on the leaves. But still I use it and pay for it because it gives me the results I want in my particular water parameters.


If you adjust the water column dosing and up the KNO3, this should not occur.
How much would you pay not to have to dose some KNO3?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

How would adjusting my dosing routine stop the AS from breaking down?

I currently dose EI for my size tank.



plantbrain said:


> If you adjust the water column dosing and up the KNO3, this should not occur.
> How much would you pay not to have to dose some KNO3?
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> How would adjusting my dosing routine stop the AS from breaking down?
> 
> I currently dose EI for my size tank.


Physically? Nothing, none at all. It wil,l still crumble and break down some.
As far as nutrients, => KNO3 dosing adds N which becomes limiting over time.
Sorry if that was not clear in my understanding or reply

I vacuum out of the fine mulm as it gets older/reuse it.
Tried that?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Gotcha

I vacuum every once in a while but in all I think it speeds the process up, from all of the tumbling around.



plantbrain said:


> Physically? Nothing, none at all. It wil,l still crumble and break down some.
> As far as nutrients, => KNO3 dosing adds N which becomes limiting over time.
> Sorry if that was not clear in my understanding or reply
> 
> ...


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

Momotaro said:


> I don't follow. I don't know what you mean when you mention "soup".
> 
> I use and have used Aqua Soil Amazonia I and have hard water, and have never had an issue. Yes, there is a rise in ammonia, but aside from that I have had no problems. I have never had muddy, mirky water. I have never had the substrate turn to mud or mush.
> 
> What makes you believe Aqua Soil II is a cover for AS I? Again, aside from the ammonia spiking, I had never heard of a problem with Aqua Soil I. Only time a problem came to light was when version II hit the shelves. THEN there was some explaining to do!  I am curious!


Sorry for the late reply; looks like there's been a lot of mileage on the forum since my last post.

Aquasoil I had nasty reactions to certain parameters, all involving hard water, that caused long term intense cloudiness and tannin staining; ADA never got more specific as to the cause. The problems with AS I looked like the problems with AS II but significantly more mild most times (at least compared to the AS II breakdown pictures I've been looking at). The difference is that there was no substrate breakdown so people kept trying to make it work, and it became long drawn out frustration rather than a quick refund for disintegrating substrate. I believe there's a couple tank journals over on AquaticQuotient.com that showed the issue.

Anyhow, after that happened they put out AS II with the claims that it has reduced incidence of clouding and tannin staining, which you can find on the product details at the adgshop and AFA sites. I'm betting these same comments are something you'll find on the bag, and in ADA catalogs as well.

-Philosophos


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Got all that Guns? 

I bought my 84g tank used. It had 6-month old Flora max large-grain substrate. I intended to start from scratch, but the way timing wound up working out I just went ahead with it. I don't love the way it looks. It is an inert substrate like Flourite and Eco. The large grain makes it hard for stems plant to hold and root. I've had to replant every stem several times. Eventually I just let them float until some roots grow then trim to the root and replant. that worked a little better.

Moral of the story - I spent a lot of time analyzing and deliberating over substrates - went with my dead last choice - the plants are doing great. I dose moderately and am maintaing just 15ppm of CO2. 108w of T5 light. This is my first tank. I only know what I've read here and at the barr report and everything has grown just fine. *Your tank will do fine and it and you will evolve.*

My very inexperienced opinion is that you should make your decision based on other issues than "best to grow plants in". How important are aesthetics? If very, then buy what you think looks good. If you are likely to re-arrange constantly, then avoid AS and MTS-style substrates this time. Buy what won't make you nuts with details that you don't like. That will frustrate YOU with the hobby. 

Bottom line - cover the bases and plants will do fine. Just follow the basics here, don't start with the most demanding plants at first and you'll succeed. Go with whatever meets YOUR needs and keeps your interest up. That will guarantee your success more than a substrate selection. Then learn and plan tank #2 with what you've learned. 

If I can do it with relative success anyone can. 

8 newbie weeks from setup, and yes, I have re-arranged a few times and will a few more before I'm content with it: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/pHosting/f/424_IMG_2861c.jpg


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Momotaro said:


> W
> When it first came out, the Amazonia II broke down almost instantly. The, shall we say "nuggets", just came apart. Turned to dust and mud. The product has since been fixed. It lost it's value because it was just an unmanageable mud.


I had some of that batch. Worked with it for about 3 mos trying to get my 29gal stabilized, then I tried to mix it in with mineralized soil just so it wouldn't be a complete $100 down the drain... the dust coated everything nonstop and even after 3 mos snails and Amanos would die within 2 days (despite 0ppm ammonia & nitrite readings :icon_conf). Anyways, it finally all went out in the front yard. Pretty sure it was just a bad batch, however, as plenty of other people have had no issues at all with their Amazonia II. I may try it again some day if the price ever comes down on this coast.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

You might aswell get AS, it has more nutrients then AS II, but a little bit larger initial ammonia spike.



lauraleellbp said:


> I had some of that batch. Worked with it for about 3 mos trying to get my 29gal stabilized, then I tried to mix it in with mineralized soil just so it wouldn't be a complete $100 down the drain... the dust coated everything nonstop and even after 3 mos snails and Amanos would die within 2 days (despite 0ppm ammonia & nitrite readings :icon_conf). Anyways, it finally all went out in the front yard. Pretty sure it was just a bad batch, however, as plenty of other people have had no issues at all with their Amazonia II. I may try it again some day if the price ever comes down on this coast.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bsmith said:


> Gotcha
> 
> I vacuum every once in a while but in all I think it speeds the process up, from all of the tumbling around.


Perhaps so, I found it did reduce the clouding. But overall, might wanna just buy new AS anytime you redo a tank if you have a place to put the fish etc in the meantime while the NH4 cycles through in the new AS.

Zeolite+ good mature filter, lots of plants can help, but I wouldn't risk the fish. At least for 3 weeks. But now it's an issue of cost anytime you wanna redo the tank after 1-3 years etc.

Big trade off there. 
You cannot have a sediment be all things to everyone/same for water column dosing etc.

I have not tested ADA AS II, however, we have some quick rapid jar test that should it's very weak nutrient wise to ADA AS I.

I'd stick with that(ADA AS I) myself.
Or go out and see what DIY clays you can come up with, I have a few million cubic yards of nice delta clay which is like ADA with less NH4 available locally.

If you are not going to uproot for a few months, do not move plants around as much, careful, prune wisely, then that's a good option. Top soil is another, "mud ice cubes" under specific plants is yet another and worm castings is but one more. Cost wise, the Eco complete and Flourite is similar to ADA AS I, at least here per unit volume.

I like the grain sizing, the color, general aesthetics, ease of use(I does take getting use to for some folks). Art brought some in back in the 1998 or so range, I got some and did not like it. I was use to hard sands. I'd used soil prior to that, but had little idea of what to do with it exactly.

I'd like to see some other products I know that are being made that are similar be brought to the USA Market. One added activated carbon to the clay and it had very clear start up water, and the nicer blacker color. 

I'm just glad more folks use richer sediments.
Places less burden on the dosing of the water column and people's forgetful nature:icon_cool.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Yeah, other then the breaking down. I love Aqua soil. I attribute this phenomenon to my hard water, and also the flow I put in the tank. I am always at the higher end of flow in ALL of my tanks. More turbulence = more degradation of the pellets = more sediment. Im not willing to compromise on that. 

Since I leave 1/3 of the original Aquasoil in the tank when I replace there is enough bacteria to save the fish from being killed by ammonia. The worst that has occurred from the switch is a bout of green water and I have a small uv sterilizer for that problem.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Aquasoil I had nasty reactions to certain parameters, all involving hard water, that caused long term intense cloudiness and tannin staining;


People may have had trouble with water discoloration, but until this discussion I have never heard of that being linked to hard water.

I can't draw the correlation. Why only hard water. Tap here has a GH of 12 and I used pre Aqua Soil II Aqua Soil I and had no problems nor have I ever read of any problems due to hard water. Would you point me to some instances? Very curious to see if I was the exception!


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## Philosophos (May 7, 2009)

Momotaro said:


> People may have had trouble with water discoloration, but until this discussion I have never heard of that being linked to hard water.
> 
> I can't draw the correlation. Why only hard water. Tap here has a GH of 12 and I used pre Aqua Soil II Aqua Soil I and had no problems nor have I ever read of any problems due to hard water. Would you point me to some instances? Very curious to see if I was the exception!


I don't have issues either, my water sits 7-9KH, 7.8-8.3pH. Here's an article from ADA its self openly stating the existence of the issue, and why AS II was created (sort of):
http://www.aquajournal.net/na/notes/001/index.html

The best chronicled illustration I've seen of AAS I having issues in a typical tank is 404ing over on barrreport.com:
http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...n/5880-ada-aquasoil-continual-cloudiness.html

I believe this may be a cross-post of the same thread, though with much less detail:
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198174

Picture 3 on that post is a lot of what I see. It may be a combination of bag/substrate mishandling, tannin staining, NH4 clouding, etc. but it all seems to look worse about the time the tannin staining starts in.

-Philosophos


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## nismo tetra (Oct 11, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> I'd take another look, the report is free on the main page of his site and you don't even have to register.
> 
> - Brad


the newsletter's are not working. The forum is though. This is what it tells me when I click the actual news letters.

*nismo tetra*, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:


Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.


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## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

Momotaro said:


> People may have had trouble with water discoloration, but until this discussion I have never heard of that being linked to hard water.
> 
> I can't draw the correlation. Why only hard water. Tap here has a GH of 12 and I used pre Aqua Soil II Aqua Soil I and had no problems nor have I ever read of any problems due to hard water. Would you point me to some instances? Very curious to see if I was the exception!


Could be in the right track. The guys at Aqua Forest recommended AS I to me specifically because I had soft water, they said AS II is for hard water applications.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

jmhart said:


> Could be in the right track. The guys at Aqua Forest recommended AS I to me specifically because I had soft water, they said AS II is for hard water applications.


Separate issue.

The AS Amazonia II can strip kH out of the water & tannins can lower the pH. 

I think the "bad" AS was a result of an issue in the manufacturing/handling process and limited to a certain "batch."


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

lauraleellbp said:


> Separate issue.
> 
> The AS Amazonia II can strip kH out of the water & tannins can lower the pH.
> 
> I think the "bad" AS was a result of an issue in the manufacturing/handling process and limited to a certain "batch."


I'm inclined to agree.

Soil/clays etc, they are not tested for quality control near as I can tell by any vendors/producers etc. If so, they put that quality control marketing label on the bag(I would if I did that step!).

If you put poems on the bag, I would think other hard confidence quality control would certainly make on there without giving anything away. 

I have a hard time thinking they might do the quality control for each and every batch without telling anyone that they do in fact do such control measures to insure the consistency of the product/consumers can be sure of their product. 

They tried it, the batch did not do well, so they stopped and redid things. Eco Complete had a similar case.

That is how they and EC both handled it, not with quality control measured prior to the consumer using it and having issues.

Seems EC did more to fix the issue at the company levels/direct to the consumer, ADA relied more on the vendor support to do this, not sure what ADA and the vendors did relationship wise. Likely best to do it with vendors and the company taking an active role to fix things and restore consumer's confidence.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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