# Is this hardwood or softwood?



## Kevinj87 (Aug 30, 2015)

Hey guys could use some help identifying this piece of driftwood. Since I just got the 120 gallon tank I really am trying to find a local piece of large driftwood to avoid the outrageous cost of commercial driftwood. (if anyone has some let me know)


I found this piece at a local pond that flood's often and it looks PERFECT the shape and texture of it is amazing, almost as if it was MADE for a fish tank but I am not sure if it is HARDWOOD, I live in Massachusetts's if that help' identifying it at all.

Here is the wood :


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Unless you plan on having the tank for like 20 years, what difference does it make if
it's soft or hard wood?
When I take walks "out there" to collect various stuff the only thing I try to avoid is
Pine because Turpentine is made from Pine sap. Pine also degrades much faster than other woods do.


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## Kevinj87 (Aug 30, 2015)

Raymond S. said:


> Unless you plan on having the tank for like 20 years, what difference does it make if
> it's soft or hard wood?
> When I take walks "out there" to collect various stuff the only thing I try to avoid is
> Pine because Turpentine is made from Pine sap. Pine also degrades much faster than other woods do.


I was always told you can't use softwood for aquarium because it will rot incredibly fast at temperatures of 72-80 and that bacteria grow inside it rapidly due to "open cell" structure compared to closed cell structured hard wood which protect's itself naturally in water from rot and bacteria?

If all the information I have read and have been told is wrong please tell me because I would love to use the drift-wood that I find after boiling/bleaching it! 

How do i tell if it is Pine or an evergreen? I have no knowledge of wood's. This piece I found I can break the branches kind of easily I bent one and it just fell/broke off.


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## Argus (May 22, 2013)

Looks soft to me. I'd spend $100 on Mopani driftwood. You are going to have a lot invested in a 120g tank. Do you really want to risk using some unknown wood?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

You are correct to wonder about much of the stuff you have read. Start with the term softwood? That is not really the true definition of the term but a term used by lumber folks to describe how easy or hard it is to cut the wood. How the tree reproduces or how hard to cut the wood might be is not a real factor in our use of the wood. So we need to move on to what we do need to know. One reason to move on is that when the wood is close to being ready for our use, it is going to be really, really hard to tell what species it comes from in many cases. 
If we were speaking of the wood being hard or soft, that is a factor. Don't use wood that is already getting mushy as it won't last long. But then you probably had that in mind already! Don't use wood that has lots of sap left as that is where color or something harmful might originate. Pine and cedar are often mentioned and they are considered "softwoods" by lumber folks. But the problem for us is that they also tend to have lots of sap and retain that sap for a long time. It is the sap content, not the species which is important. In theory, the species might have some effect on how long wood lasts but then you are talking about 10 years vs. 20 and it goes out too far for me to worry about. 
I like to look at what does matter. How much sap is left? 
Starting with how flexible is good. Any bark left may lean toward being newer but not a final answer. Is the piece lighter feeling than expected for the size? Weight is a factor as water weights far more than dry cellulose. Cutting to get a close look at the inside gives good info. Wood dries from the outside to inside and it can be expected to change color as it dries so if the total piece is pretty close to uniform color all the way, it is likely to be dry. 
Don't buy into the idea that softwoods are not good. I often use some really large pieces that I know to be cedar and they last plenty long enough. 

This is what totally dry wood should look like when cut through. The wet edges are from the piece being soaked. The wet spots come from out to in when you do the bleach soak but that is not the color to look at for our purpose. Look how uniform the color down through the center is. But keep in mind that this is wood that has been dead and weathered for a VERY long time not just 5-10 years. 










This is a cedar or juniper log that I picked. It was longer but the fellow who wanted it had hollow and shorter in mind so I tunneled it out and cut it down to what he wanted.

Dry cedar is safe to use. 
Rainbow cichlids ( herotilapia multispinosa) protecting fry. Note the large cedar log.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Please note: cedar is only safe if it is very well aged (dead a *long *time) if there is sap still in it it won't be safe. I have a red cedar in my 55g, it was submerged in a man made lake for over 60 years before the seller pulled it out. I would not trust any cedar that still smells noticeably like cedar from a casual sniff

One way to tell if a wood is a hardwood or softwood is to press your fingernail against the wood, does it press in easily and leave an indentation (soft) or does the wood resist and not leave a notch from your finger nail (hard)?


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Not sure if Tom Barr still frequents this site or not. But, its worth reaching out to him if you're looking for driftwood. I believe his site is thebarrreport.com or something along those lines.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> Please note: cedar is only safe if it is very well aged (dead a *long *time) if there is sap still in it it won't be safe. I have a red cedar in my 55g, it was submerged in a man made lake for over 60 years before the seller pulled it out. I would not trust any cedar that still smells noticeably like cedar from a casual sniff
> 
> One way to tell if a wood is a hardwood or softwood is to press your fingernail against the wood, does it press in easily and leave an indentation (soft) or does the wood resist and not leave a notch from your finger nail (hard)?


 Did you know balsa wood is a hardwood even though it's a soft wood?


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Steve001 said:


> Did you know balsa wood is a hardwood even though it's a soft wood?


I've not heard of balsa wood so no I didn't know that. Cedar is a soft wood thats considered hard enough to be OK for the aquarium too.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

AquaAurora said:


> I've not heard of balsa wood so no I didn't know that. Cedar is a soft wood thats considered hard enough to be OK for the aquarium too.


Sure you have. Ever seen those wooden rubber band driven airplanes in the toy store?


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## bobjohnson (Apr 26, 2013)

Balsa wood will rot pretty fast, its very porous.


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## Mariostg (Sep 6, 2014)

Hardwood = Angiosperm = Flowering plant
Softwood = Gymnosperm = Seed producing plant

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/question598.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwood
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowering_plant


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

That's where things get weird! There are softwoods which are hard and hardwoods which are soft. So unless you want to saw it, the issue is not really a practical thing to worry about. If it is getting mushy, don't bother with it.


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## Kevinj87 (Aug 30, 2015)

Thank you guys for all the information, I never imagined it would be so difficult to judge whether the wood is aquarium safe. I am thinking this is a soft-wood and even though it was washed up on the shore of a local lake I am thinking it probably isn't aged enough and not safe for use.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Soak it in a tub. Drain and fill a few times. Then add some sacrificial fish and see how they fare. You may be surprised.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I would not ditch the wood based on what I've seen so far. Some testing and watching may give some answers.
When we don't know the history, I do some things to give it the best shot at working. First step for me is to remove any doubts about what the wood may have picked up. Floating around in a lake or river is a pretty good place to find oil in lots of areas. There is always the possibility that somebody dumped their used oil on it? All those little worries as well as the sap question can be reduced with a bleach soak. Chlorine is one of the most highly reactive items we have. That means it reacts very well with organics. For this purpose I use the simple definition of organic as having carbon content. So if it reacts well with carbon containing items, we can depend on it reacting with oils and pesticides as well as bacteria or fungus. When we worry about cedar or pine, it is the sap and oily stuff. They make turpentine out of pipe sap! 
But if we do a bleach soak and remove the sap, we get very close to safe. That doesn't mean we can use a green pine board because the bleach will not soak into green wood. 
I would do a bleach soak then test the item. If you soak it in clean water for a few days after the bleach soak, you will be able to see what the color situation might be as well as check the surface for any signs of an oily slick. If nothing shows up, move on to using it with some fish. 

We do so much water changing that a small problem with pollution can often be removed by just doing the normal water changes.

Bump: It looks dry from here and I might guess it safe to use. 
But guessing can get us in trouble so I go with a standard method for all my tank stuff. 
A bleach soak will remove doubts about what is on the wood. But I would not ditch a good item just out of not knowing without an effort to find the answer.


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## Argus (May 22, 2013)

How about using hydrogen peroxide and boiling instead of chlorine?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Argus said:


> How about using hydrogen peroxide and boiling instead of chlorine?


Hydrogen peroxide is expensive, boiling does nothing but move oil around and may be dangerous to the user? 
Chlorine is cheap, easy and removes itself when done? When looking at health recommendations for cleaning things, the professional folks use bleach. Since it is what is in the water in many cases, I see no reason to worry about using it. It's only a matter of dilution when we drink it or add it to the tank in tap water.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

PlantedRich said:


> Hydrogen peroxide is expensive, boiling does nothing but move oil around and may be dangerous to the user?
> Chlorine is cheap, easy and removes itself when done? When looking at health recommendations for cleaning things, the professional folks use bleach. Since it is what is in the water in many cases, I see no reason to worry about using it. It's only a matter of dilution when we drink it or add it to the tank in tap water.


And most of the H2O2 you buy is only 3%. Add more water and it becomes well, water.


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## Argus (May 22, 2013)

Some links about H2O2 use in aquariums:

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/hydrogen-peroxide

http://fish-etc.com/knowledge/tank-maintenance-tips

http://www.aquariumadvice.com/forums/f24/hydrogen-peroxide-and-its-utility-130482.html


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I was not saying it does not have it's good uses in the correct situation. Just that it is not the best thing to use in THIS situation.
When there are large items to clean, the accepted standard in commercial/industrial use like water is chlorine. They don't put hydrogen peroxide in your drinking water to clean it, they put some form of chlorine in many cases. Since there is chlorine in the most of the water we use, looking for alternates is just ignoring what we already have and deal with every water change. 
The old story about something that soaks in and only comes out later to kill your fish? Until somebody can name that ingredient, I won't believe it is there!

Bump: I was not saying it does not have it's good uses in the correct situation. Just that it is not the best thing to use in THIS situation.
When there are large items to clean, the accepted standard in commercial/industrial use like water is chlorine. They don't put hydrogen peroxide in your drinking water to clean it, they put some form of chlorine in many cases. Since there is chlorine in the most of the water we use, looking for alternates is just ignoring what we already have and deal with every water change. 
The old story about something that soaks in and only comes out later to kill your fish? Until somebody can name that ingredient, I won't believe it is there!


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## Argus (May 22, 2013)

They probably don't put H2O2 in drinking water because it doesn't last long enough in the water. They do use it in waste water treatment. There are a number of sources that say not to use chlorine when treating driftwood. Dr. Foster and Smiths page on Mopani says, "Only use dechlorinated or RO water, and scrub the wood with an algae brush to remove excess dirt." 

Since your advice goes against what is said in various aquarium books and other sources, I would think the burden of proof should be on you. Not the other way around.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I have nothing to prove as I prove it to myself all the time. But just for grins, there is a good argument for thinking why a commercial operation like F&S would not recommend using bleach on the wood they sell. Chlorine takes a good deal of willingness to understand as well as a fair amount of thought. In a simple advert, there is not time nor space to achieve that level of trust and understanding to explain what chlorine will do to their product. If they promote using bleach on their wood and the customer finds his wood has turned an ugly white, they may lose a customer. There is not time/space/money to explain that it is only temporary. So it is much safer and takes far less advert dollars to just go with the "common knowledge" and not try to explain that the wood will return to the normal color. Just good business practice. 

But on a forum that is intended to exchange ideas and knowledge, there is time to fully explain things like bleach. But the hangup comes in those cases where people choose not to believe rather than look at some real facts that are not found on forums. 
Forums are among the worst places to get real reliable information so I recommend we all take the time to look for more reliable information. Do not simply take what anybody says as fact. 
For some starters, read what bleach and chlorine are made of and how they react. It is not that complex or hard. Then check who is using chlorine and how they use it as well as the necessary precautions to take. At some point when you've found it is safe and easy to use, maybe you will want to try it for yourself. When one is really, really, skeptical of anything, personal experience and trying it can be a real help. 
But it doesn't work in all cases. Some still choose to think the world is flat. I do not intend to change their minds. Nor do I intend to change all minds about the value of using bleach. I just throw it out there as a thing that I find very helpful. Whether others choose to use it is not a big thing to me. 
So it is an open option for you to choose. Is the world flat or do you choose to study the question?


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## Kevinj87 (Aug 30, 2015)

Thank you all for your help, the wood has sat in a tub of water outdoor's now for about 5 day's and there is nothing different about the water or smell, I even scooped a little and swished it in the mouth ( probably not a good idea ) only difference was a small brown tint to the water not much in the way of tannin's which is surprising so maybe it did soak longer then I presumed.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Good to see it moving ahead. When all is done about the only true way to find out if things work is by trying them. We can guess and estimate on wood for ages and still it can surprise us. I've got six new pieces in soaking now and while I think they will be good to use, there is no guarantee. Nature is like that.


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## Kevinj87 (Aug 30, 2015)

MSG referred me to Big fish Little fish in Somerville and they had fantastic drift wood and VERY fair cost. I have never seen a local place selling drift wood at such an affordable cost. I bought a HUGE center piece that weighs probably a solid 15 lb's and has amazing character as well as 2 amazing pieces of spider wood that really is beautiful. This was exactly what I was looking for so I have to thank MSG and Big Fish Little Fish!


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