# Corrupted Ecocomplete



## Nolan W. (Feb 9, 2005)

I wonder if you can treat the EC with hydrochloric acid? I read an article about the treatment of sea sand with HCl to dissolve all the calcareous particles. Here it is:

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/plants/kumar_substrate.html

I don't know if it's worth the time and work, though. HCl isn't something I would want to play around with.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thanks, I'll check that out. I'm probably going to move all the fish and yank this junk out, as I don't want to wait it out. Flourite here I come. Too bad, because I like the look of the dark substrate,sans argonite. Thanks again. bob


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

You could let Caribsea know about the problem. They really stand behind their products and would probably replace it for you.


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## Piscesgirl (Jan 20, 2004)

Eco Complete raised my gh/kh, but only for a short time. It's back down to almost nothing. 

Now, if you have the Eco Complete marketed for Cichlids, that's another substrate altogether.


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## Cheeseybacon (Feb 13, 2005)

I'm pretty much in the same boat. I picked up a bag of eco complete for my 10 gallon and it was definately tainted with some sand of some type and my gH has risen as well. The bag said not to wash it, and despite all of the white milkiness in the bag, I trusted them. Also took the tank almost a whole week to clear up (just a 10-gallon, mind you) and it still clouds up quite significantly if I slighty move something around in the tank. I'm sure it's a great product if you don't end up with corrupted stuff, but needless to say, my first experience with eco complete has not been a good one and I too am seriously considering flourite for my next tank.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

The gH and kH problem has been well discussed here and at other forums. It should not come as a surprise to anyone who takes the time to do a bit of research. 

Normally a couple of water changes will solve the problem. But the problem is most severe for the very few people who have very soft water. I would have the same problem with my water source.


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## GraFFix (Feb 21, 2005)

This has got me worried...

I have 2 bags eco complete waiting to go in my new 20g and it does in fact have that milky white water in the bag...and you can also see some white particles in the gravel inside the bag. I dont know what to do 

I think im going to dump the water in the bag and not add it to my tank..Im going to be seeding the bottom of the eco complete with mulm from my very well established 10g (7 years old) so I dont think i will hurt anything by getting rid of that water that comes in the bags of eco. I might as well just treat it as regular gravel now and rinse it off before i even use it. I keep hearing all these stories about eco and I really dont feel like dealing with it. Im determined to use this though, I want the black substrate...although I think my next tank will be using flourite


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## GTApuffgal (Feb 7, 2005)

GraFFix said:


> This has got me worried...
> 
> I have 2 bags eco complete waiting to go in my new 20g and it does in fact have that milky white water in the bag...and you can also see some white particles in the gravel inside the bag. I dont know what to do
> 
> I think im going to dump the water in the bag and not add it to my tank..Im going to be seeding the bottom of the eco complete with mulm from my very well established 10g (7 years old) so I dont think i will hurt anything by getting rid of that water that comes in the bags of eco. I might as well just treat it as regular gravel now and rinse it off before i even use it. I keep hearing all these stories about eco and I really dont feel like dealing with it. Im determined to use this though, I want the black substrate...although I think my next tank will be using flourite


Me too... I am planning my next tank with Eco, but I'm not sure if it's worth it. Has anybody rinsed at and treated it like regular gravel as Graffix said? Same problem? Dang, I want the look, but I don't really want to risk it monkeying with my soft water...


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Piscesgirl said:


> Now, if you have the Eco Complete marketed for Cichlids, that's another substrate altogether.


No, I didn't make that mistake. Its the standard planted tank stuff. I would go flourite if starting a new tank IMHO. The plants will cover most of the red substrate anyhow, in short order. I wonder if the hurricanes in Florida had anything to do with this? bob


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> The gH and kH problem has been well discussed here and at other forums. It should not come as a surprise to anyone who takes the time to do a bit of research.
> 
> Normally a couple of water changes will solve the problem. But the problem is most severe for the very few people who have very soft water. I would have the same problem with my water source.



Yeah, I had read about it. Didn't think it would happen to me. bob


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Guys, I think you should re-read Rex's post.

I really should come as no surprise that Eco-Complete can play with you KH and GH parameters. That being said, almost all of those problems abated with a little time and routine water changes.

Mike


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## GraFFix (Feb 21, 2005)

just to shed some light on the subject i took some pics of my 2 bags of EC i have sitting here..I dont think i want to use them now.

Sorry for the date i just put batteries in the camera and forgot to change it to the correct date...these pics were taken 4-27-05

http://www.graffix.org/ec


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

eww... what's that milky liquid?
Doesn't look like the EC sold in my LFS...


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

> I've had no experience with it, but ADA Aquasoil Amazonia has a similar appearance to EC. It "helps to lower the hardness level of the water" and "helps to bring the pH level of the water down to an ideal level for most of the aquatic plants."


And please tell me what the ideal level is for aquatic plants? I have never used the product. But just reading the claim is enough for me to never use it. It may well lower the pH and hardness, that's not hard to do. Just use ground peat. But that claim just screams SNAKE OIL to me.

BTW, you can get 3.8 cubic feet of ground peat at WalMart for under $8.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

That milky liquid is a clarifier they are using to fix some of the contamination problems. I like the Eco-complete product but I think I will start giving the advice to always rinse it first before using it. The water in the bag, even with the clarifier, is just black water extract. You can achieve the same effect by putting a thin layer of peat in the bottom of the tank before adding the substrate.


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## Nolan W. (Feb 9, 2005)

GraFFix said:


> just to shed some light on the subject i took some pics of my 2 bags of EC i have sitting here..I dont think i want to use them now.
> 
> Sorry for the date i just put batteries in the camera and forgot to change it to the correct date...these pics were taken 4-27-05
> 
> http://www.graffix.org/ec


WHOA I've never seen a batch that cloudy before. If you don't want the cloudiness, dump the liquid, rinse the EC lightly, make water changes. The sand and gravel sold around here has shell bits, and should impact the water parameters the same way as EC. My dad keeps cardinals and other tetras quite successfully in a tank with that same gravel, so it shouldn't be a big deal. The pH in that tank is <6.0. KH and GH are relatively low too. I use the gravel in my tank, and the pH has dropped to 6.5 before, and I could still see the white bits.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

There's definitely a problem based on those pictures... when I added Eco Complete last year, the water was crystal clear even immediately after filling.


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## Nolan W. (Feb 9, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> There's definitely a problem based on those pictures... when I added Eco Complete last year, the water was crystal clear even immediately after filling.


All of the EC I've seen in the LFSs had clear liquid, as Hypancistrus said. I don't know how some batches have clear liquid and some have cloudy. Would time and temperature have something to do with it?


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## FeatherfinFan (Feb 3, 2005)

I bought 10 bags 3 months back and just had them sitting in their shipping boxes in the garage. I noticed a whitish puddle underneath the boxes but just assumed it was normal since I've heard it's very common to have them leak during shipping. Now I'm sharing the concern of others that the bags have been compromised and the quality is questionable. I've now opened the boxes to inspect the sacks and noticed 8 of the 10 sacks have whitish cloudy water, and /or small white chunks in w/ the black pebbles. The other 2 sacks seem to be clear and no white pieces in the sack.

Since this tank isn't quite ready and I was planning on rinsing the substrate anyway, what would be the best way to rinse the bad white water out but still retain all the good fines and small beneficial particles?

One other thing, why does EC have to continue selling water-packed substrate when most everyone agrees that the bacteria claim is at best, a marginal marketing gimic. It seems they have a good reputation for a quality substrate without having to complicate things (and cause the product to be more costly to ship) by adding water into the equation.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Most of the water had leaked out of my nine bags. I don't recollect seeing any "clarifier" or white liquid in the two or three bags that hadn't lost most of their water. That stuff in the pictures looks scary. Maybe I got a batch without this cure. But there are quite a few white pebbles and also some with white on one side and black on the others. As I mentioned, if dried, some white rocks could leave a chalky mark quite easily on you finger. 

I'm going to try a series of 50% water changes - maybe two a week and see if it starts to settle back to a decent softness. I'll give it a couple of weeks before I consider the "start all over" option. I thought a little hardness would be benificial with my near zero GH. But 13 degrees GH in less than a week is ridiculous for the amount of monies spent. Its hard on the fish as well. I lost over half the young neons and some Swordtails I bought and one gold Cory I had had a long time. And I can tell the plants are struggling to adapt, especially Rotalla Walachii. We'll see. FWIW, the folks who sold me this stuff fired off an email to Carib Sea today. roud:


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

*Update: Just read a nice email note from CaribSea. They are sending me new uncontaminated Eco and some money for lost fish/plant stock. Obviously, they stand by their product. * roud: Apparently some of their mined volcanic rock hit a few veins of calcium carbonate? Sounds odd, but at least they are replacing the substrate. I know a local cichlid breeder I'll trade the funky Eco to. And just to play it safe, I'm going to soak the new Eco in a spare water trough (from my goats' second pasture) for almost a week. Then I'll check the GH before doing the big, big chore of starting this tank all over. Thanks everyone and good luck with your Eco. Its been a good day! bob


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Now that's customer service.


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## ChuChu (Apr 28, 2005)

*Hey*



Rex Grigg said:


> And please tell me what the ideal level is for aquatic plants? I have never used the product. But just reading the claim is enough for me to never use it. It may well lower the pH and hardness, that's not hard to do. Just use ground peat. But that claim just screams SNAKE OIL to me.
> 
> BTW, you can get 3.8 cubic feet of ground peat at WalMart for under $8.



Hey who do you think you are

Amano is a master aquarist with over 40 years experience

TFH just did a big feature on him

The man is amazing sells the best equipment there is

Who are you to call his product snake oil





Rex Grigg said:


> I have never used the product.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

ChuChu said:


> Hey who do you think you are
> 
> Amano is a master aquarist with over 40 years experience
> 
> ...


And yet another unthinking follower........ Unsubstantiated claims will always be challenged.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

ChuChu said:


> Hey who do you think you are


Rex is an avid aquatic gardener with much experience who has been of great benefit to this hobby in very real terms. 



ChuChu said:


> Amano is a master aquarist with over 40 years experience


Yes he is, one who is known first and foremost for his aquascaping and photography skills. 



ChuChu said:


> TFH just did a big feature on him


And that means what? TFH has done many articles on many people, many with conflicting points of view.



ChuChu said:


> The man is amazing sells the best equipment there is


In my opinion, his aquascapes are all starting to look alike, kind of like all of Boston's songs sound the same after awhile.

As for his products, they are definitely the most expensive on the planet, that however is in no way any evidence that they are "the best there is", especially considering the undisputed results others of EQUAL talent have achieved using the cheapest methods possible.



ChuChu said:


> Who are you to call his product snake oil


Who are you to say otherwise?



ChuChu said:


> idiot


Grow up little man


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

ChuChu there are plently of people on the forum here who love Amano. And there's those who don't. Quit flame-baiting. :tongue:

Actually, Amano's substrates are probably his biggest selling item, but still expensive... $32 for 2.5 gallons of the stuff. You're supposed to put "Power Sand" substrate on the bottom, then Aqua Soil on top of that.

I believe it will still be fine if you raise GH and KH by adding ferts, it's mainly the _substrate itself_ that needs to have a lower pH... for example, I understand plants can't absorb some nutrients unless the pH is below 7. So the pH of your water can be above 7, but the substrate has to have a lower pH. So that's the idea.


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Betowess said:


> *Update: Just read a nice email note from CaribSea. They are sending me new uncontaminated Eco and some money for lost fish/plant stock. Obviously, they stand by their product. * roud: Apparently some of their mined volcanic rock hit a few veins of calcium carbonate? Sounds odd, but at least they are replacing the substrate. I know a local cichlid breeder I'll trade the funky Eco to. And just to play it safe, I'm going to soak the new Eco in a spare water trough (from my goats' second pasture) for almost a week. Then I'll check the GH before doing the big, big chore of starting this tank all over. Thanks everyone and good luck with your Eco. Its been a good day! bob


That is very good to hear! I like their product very much (as I didn't have this problem, fortunately) and hearing this makes feel confident about continuing to use it.

Am I correct in the assumption that now that we all know what to look for, we can identify corrupted bags quite readily? I can buy it at my LFS, so as long as I can definitely see no milkiness when I disturb the bags, I should be okay, yes?


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## Cheeseybacon (Feb 13, 2005)

What I'm wondering is... has anyone here purchased corrupted eco-complete, rinised it first, and then otherwise had no problems? There is a fish store a little bit aways from me that has some eco-complete for $10 a bag, which I can tell is contaminated. I'd like to snap that stuff up if it's worth the trouble of rinsing it.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

It looks like they put that stuff in all of their bags now.


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Opiesilver said:


> It looks like they put that stuff in all of their bags now.


Which stuff? The milky white liquid? I just bought some this past Monday that had no trace of it, and all the bags I saw on the shelf yesterday at the local Big Al's look fine. My water is crystal clear 3 days after adding the EC.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

It's only in the bags produced in the last 3 months that you will find the clarifier. (milky white stuff)


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

OK, some people are saying the milky white stuff is a clarifier (yet it causes cloudy water), and Betowess says in an e-mail Carib-Sea says it's calcium carbonate that got in from the mine and should NOT be there so they are replacing the product for those who ask.

Which is it?


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

My limited understanding is a few lots got out that were compromised. Some worse than others and they caught the bulk of it and have changed their manufactoring procedure accordingly. I have no idea whether the clarifier is permenent or a temporary cure. But I am impressed with their response, albeit a few days late. And yes, Rex knows his stuff and of course so does Amano. Obviously, things cost alot more in Japan than here in the US. Lets keep it friendly. Its one small pond we live on. roud: 

Did a 50% water change and brought my GH down to 7 from 14. I imagine it will creep back up but the fish will be better off and the plants too, of course. bob


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## Tino (Jan 9, 2005)

Cheeseybacon said:


> What I'm wondering is... has anyone here purchased corrupted eco-complete, rinised it first, and then otherwise had no problems? There is a fish store a little bit aways from me that has some eco-complete for $10 a bag, which I can tell is contaminated. I'd like to snap that stuff up if it's worth the trouble of rinsing it.


For $10 a bag I'd be willing to perform the experiment myself  .


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> OK, some people are saying the milky white stuff is a clarifier (yet it causes cloudy water), and Betowess says in an e-mail Carib-Sea says it's calcium carbonate that got in from the mine and should NOT be there so they are replacing the product for those who ask.
> 
> Which is it?


That's what I'd like to know. I was under the impression the milkiness was a result of the contamination (apparently calcium carbonate, we are now told) not a clarifier.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

The clarifier grabs the calcium carbonate out of the water and makes it stick together somewhat. That's why it has the milky look. The clarifier itself is clear liquid.


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## Nolan W. (Feb 9, 2005)

Very glad to hear about that, Betowess. That makes me want to try one of their products sometime in the future.



ChuChu said:


> Hey who do you think you are
> 
> Amano is a master aquarist with over 40 years experience
> 
> ...


Keep it cool, ChuChu. Everybody has their own opinions about certain products. Eco-Complete, Fluorite, Aquasoil, plain old sand... many people have used and had success with each of these substrates. I don't believe in "best" products. Everybody has different opinions. The same product may be a dream come true for one and a horrible nightmare for another. If a product works for you, great! Stand by it and recommend it to others. There is no one product that everyone can be happy with.


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Opiesilver said:


> The clarifier grabs the calcium carbonate out of the water and makes it stick together somewhat. That's why it has the milky look. The clarifier itself is clear liquid.


Oh okay, I think I'm less confused now. :icon_bigg Thanks!


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## GraFFix (Feb 21, 2005)

I sent an email to caribsea today with some pictures of my bags of EC...well see what happens. If anything ill just rinse the EC untill its clear of that white stuff and use it with the mulm from my old tank.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Well I recieved ten bags of Eco complete last week for the nine bags I reported "corrupted" to them. But no check for my lost "live stock" - their words. Then a few days later I recieved another six bags in three boxes (which UPS said was 3 of 5 boxes coming).
Go figure? So I took 4 bags and traded for some sweet Bogwood with a LFS whose owner I really like. I traded at $10 per bag which is about the west coast wholesale cost if they pick up on an openhouse... Support the little local guys if you can. I imagine it ain't an easy livelyhood. Still PO about the crappy corrupted batch, I must admit. But they did send me replacement to their credit, even if it was more than they should have, sans livestock check. 

I may do a piece meal replacement, or just save the new stuff for another 90 gallon. I think the old is still causing some problems, though the GH has stabalized fpr the most part. Of course if I get another big tank, my wife might just, well, fill in the blank...
bob


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

Well i had that issue at first, mine came a little milky months ago(like december) i just dumped it in, waited a few hours and it was clear again. I'll do a test tank verus tap today and see if mine ever went down to normal


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## ScottyDont (Mar 9, 2005)

why is it bad to rinse eco-complete? if i washed it real good is it no longer usefull? like I dont get why not to wash it...


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

I would wash it at this point. The sweet thing is you don't have to wash it for hours like you do with flourite. Just keep the "fines" in (smallest gravel). I think I read somewhere that the benificial bacteria in the black water is pretty much marketing hype. But I do love the look of this substrate.


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Yeah, I really love the look of it. I just brought home a 54G plexiglass tank that I get to use until I get my own larger tank, and I really think it needs EcoComplete in it... hmmm, that'll be at least 5 bags, probably better with 6 bags... *starts thinking of some way she can casually slide this purchase past her husband*


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Oh the easy way is to start with a ten, then slide in a 29, hmm maybe trade the 29 for a 55, then sneak the 90 onto the oversized stand you bought for the 55. That way he'll never know how hard you hit him. Et tu brute'. bob


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

Oh, he already took note when I swapped the 10 immediately for a 20, and that was supposed to keep me happy for a while so I didn't want to get a big tank right away. (silly him! :icon_lol: ) Now I've been given this 54 plexi to use for free while I plan my larger tank, and I think he's thinking that means I don't really have to spend much money to use this thing in the interim. So now I need to figure out how to slide a purchase of 5 or 6 bags of EcoComplete past him without him realizing just how much money that is. :wink: Good thing it doesn't cloud things adding it in with water in the tank, I think I might just be sneaking this in a bag or two at a time, lol.


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## mikey (Mar 14, 2004)

I have to post my experience.

I bought 4 bags eco from mdepot in cal last month. Shipped to Va. I thought the eco was ok but was not sure so I emailed caribsea for their opinion. Their first response was to send me 4 new bags. I told them I thought the eco wasn't tainted and asked should I rinse or what. They said that if there was no milky white stuff, rinsing and using would probably be ok.

I get things done very slowly these days. 3 weeks went by and they called me on the phone to ask how the eco was doing. I told them I hadn't opened the bags yet (except for a water test). They suggested that even it it looked ok, they would prefer to send me new eco just to be on the safe side. And 2 days later I got 4 bags.

I have to say that customer service and committment of that caliber is what is so desperately lacking in our over-zealous retail establishment. Caribsea is a much needed and welcome breath of fresh air in an environment of poor customer service and support. They get my vote as a company trying to do the right thing for their customers and will get my ecocomplete support.

mikey


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## joan (Apr 25, 2005)

It's stories like this that make me not even hesitate now to go out and get EcoComplete for this new tank. They clearly have gone above and beyond to correct this error and give top notch customer service. Now it's just sliding all those EC bags past the husband... *whistles casually*


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

FWIW, Its easier to "like" Caribsea if you hadn't put any of the "corrupted" batch in a brand new $1400.00 tank. As it stands, they did the right thing with replacement bags and money. But I think this substrate is contributing to a stubborn red algae I am battling and now I have the fun task of transfering all the livestock, sterilizing the tank and equip. to my best ability and putting in new substrate etc; essentially starting all over the hard way. 

BTW, won't be the new Eco complete. Nope, straight gravel and flourite for me this time. I'll use the replacement bags to trade for the substrate and some new plants.


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