# pH Controller: Luxury or Necessity?



## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Luxury.

To stop pH swings test your kH & gH, get those values stable and the pH will stabilize.

Setting up a system is simple once you start the hands on phase.

Setting up a controller is simple, put the probe in the water, plug the solenoid into the switched receptical of the controller, plug the switched recptical into a wall plug/power strip, plug the controller into a different wall plug/power strip recptical, set the controller to what you want the pH to be.

I'd get a little more in depth with the explination but I have to get ready to go to class in an hour


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## johnpfaff (Oct 18, 2013)

Either way, you will need to watch and adjust carefully at first. As I understand it, a controller will give you a constant Ph by injecting more or less CO2 into the water. A set Ph is not a guarantee of required CO2 for your plants. You will still need a drop checker and to monitor your fish carefully, at least for the first few months. Your probe should be calibrated every month or so on a controller. A published standard is one full degree Ph drop at lights on from your tank water with no CO2 added. I use a controller with about a .5 degree difference and my plants do very well, high light, high tech AquaSoil substrate.
Anyone needing to correct me or add to this discussion, feel free. I am not an expert, just doing what works well for me. A controller is plug and play.


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## whitepapagold (Aug 19, 2010)

Luxury

The only thing they do thats really great is let you know if there is a drastic change you may not notice otherwise.

But totally unnecessary.

And I just bought an Apex controller with pH probe lol... It will text me if my pH drops too low.

I won't ever set it up as an actual pH "controller" though. I let my pH swing with the CO2.


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

I've just weaned myself off of the pH controller. Life is much easier with out it. I was nervous about gassing my fish, but one i had the bubble set and watching the drop checker and the fish, i think i have it down. Took a while to fine tune but i feel good about it now. The key is to have a good needle valve so you can make those fine adjustments.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

So, sounds like if I have a drop checker and time the system with my lights, I can be successful without pH controller.

This sort of system is what I'm thinking: http://www.co2art.co.uk/collections...plete-aquarium-co2-system-for-tank-up-to-500l

The exchange rate and free shipping favours this...I'm in Canada.

Finally, if my pH has stabilized at 7.8 with the crushed coral - just leave it that way and add the pressurized CO2 (I'm running semi DIY Co2 right now which is giving me trouble re. consistensy)?

Thx.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

To me the PH controller was an easy way to get a number and see when I wanted to change the CO2. Easy to set up once on hand. I used the Milwaukee and was very satisified. One big advantage of using one is when you have a less than supreme reg or needle valve. The controller will work around the things that those can create. Single stage regs that MIGHT do the end of tank dump are shut down when the controller watches the PH. Funky needle valve that wanders off is corrected by the controller shutting down at different timing. If the needle valve lets the flow go high the controller shuts it down sooner. 
Luxury? Yes, but somewhat like cruise control on a car on long trips. It's a luxury but real nice not to have to baby- sit things so much. We don't really need power windows but I won't buy a car without any more.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

They are a nice luxury item, but totally not necessary.

If you have patients you can dial in your tank and get it running to perfection over time. But once you get it dialed in you generally don't have to mess with the CO2 settings after that.

If you want a more "set and forget" approach in terms of CO2 and have consistant pH control right out of the box, pH controller is the way to go.

Do I have one, no; if I win the lottery I'll get one!


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

To me it is a necessity.

I run my CO2 off of an Apex pH probe. Drop it down to a certain pH during the photoperiod then it turns off. VERY easy to adjust my levels of CO2. Don't have to worry about screwing with a sensitive needle valve to dial in my levels. If there is too much in the water it simply turns off CO2 at my pre-set pH.

Want to adjust your CO2? Simply type in the pH value that the CO2 turns off at and you're done


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Okay, interesting - good input. I am reconsidering. But how on earth do you set this up with a tank that has a lid? 

http://support.co2art.co.uk/article/70-latest-up-high-precision-ph-controller-for-planted-tank


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I read a lot on the topic as well. Conclusion is: Tom Barr says a pH controller is completely useless, fish don't care about the pH change from CO2. Takashi Amano says "it is Taboo, very rude to add CO2 at night".

And finally, the pH from my tap water varies greatly during the week, I noticed during the weekend it rises up to 7.8 and during the week it is usually neutral around 7.0. I'm going to monitor that more closely but looks like there is a pattern..
All that to say, if your tap water pH varies, you'll have to adjust your pH controller every time you make a water change to get a full 1 degree pH drop (=30 ppm CO2). That's where I stopped reading and thought a 5$ timer from Walmart is enough.

With a Drop Checker, you also get a reading of the amount of CO2 you're injecting (and not a reading of the water's pH that you'd get with a controller) which is sufficient to monitor the CO2 and make adjustments.
To make precise adjustments, you need a good needle valve, so make sure whatever system you buy from CO2 Art has a good needle valve.

I found this thread helpful on the topic.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

jenelle said:


> Okay, interesting - good input. I am reconsidering. But how on earth do you set this up with a tank that has a lid?
> 
> http://support.co2art.co.uk/article/70-latest-up-high-precision-ph-controller-for-planted-tank


The only thing that goes in the tank is the probe - your lid shouldn't cover every square inch of your tank lol

Also the only reason I say it is a necessity to me is because I am lazy, have lived without it before, and couldn't live without it now


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jenelle said:


> Okay, interesting - good input. I am reconsidering. But how on earth do you set this up with a tank that has a lid?
> 
> http://support.co2art.co.uk/article/70-latest-up-high-precision-ph-controller-for-planted-tank



The only part of that controller that has to be inside the tank is the pH probe, the only part of that you need to accommodate is the probes wire. You don't HAVE to use the mounting brackets if you don't want to, I have my controller mounted to the wall behind my tank using those 3M 2 sided sticky tabs that won't peel paint.

Make sure that setup is compatible with your home electric supply for your country, if I remember correctly CO2 Art is a British company. Also follow their instructions on calibrating the probe.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

jenelle said:


> Okay, interesting - good input. I am reconsidering. But how on earth do you set this up with a tank that has a lid?
> 
> http://support.co2art.co.uk/article/70-latest-up-high-precision-ph-controller-for-planted-tank


For PH controller setup, there is only one additional thing to add to the tank or some other spotin the water. There is a probe about the size of a long skinny finger which reads the water. To avoid having anything more showing, I normally strap the probe to the back of a filter tube. The wire is something like 1/8" thick and hides under the tubing pretty well and even the tightest covers usually have an 1/8" gap. 
I like simple stand alone items so that if one thing breaks, I don't need to replace a whole very expensive group. The Milwaukee has the probe connected to a box about 1" X 3 X 5 ish. This box is connected to a plug. Plug into AC power and plug your solenoid in the back side of that plug. Adjust the knob on the controller to gradually start taking the ph down. It gives you a digital readout and you can turn it down as you like. Most give the fish time to get used to the new water setting and may take a week or more to drive the PH down a full point. The plug acts like an electronic "gate" turning the power on and off to the solenoid. For calibration that is needed now and then, you get a known PH test sample like 7.0 and put the probe in it. If the reading is off 7.0, you turn a small screwdriver adjustment to get it back right on. Much easier for me than guessing what color a drop checker might be . Also has the advantage of almost immediate response (10 minutes?) where a drop checker may need hours to rethink the answer.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

I bought my first pressurized CO2 system recently with a pH controller, and I am still undecided on whether or not I should have spent the extra money on the controller. My main problems with the controller are as follows:

1) My pH meter is not very accurate, it has a resolution of only one decimal place. This means that the accuracy of the meter is probably at best +/-0.1pH. If you look at a pH/KH chart you can see a swing of around 15ppm CO2 with a pH difference of 0.2pH. This really means that even if you know your KH value very accurately, you still cannot accurately tell what your CO2 ppm value is because of the low accuracy of the pH meter. This isn't so bad because you can just raise and lower the pH by a couple decimal places until the relationship between plant growth and fish health is optimized, but it does kind of defeat the purpose of having the controller in the first place.

2) The biggest problem with a pH controller is that there are no guarantees that your CO2 levels will be stable, which is kind of the entire point. Even though it may take some fiddling to set up a conventional pressurized CO2 system, once it is set you are always putting the same amount of CO2 into your tank (flow rate should be constant). With a pH controller, anytime there is a shift in KH the CO2 level will also adjust and therefore they are not constant. Some peoples tanks may have very stable KH values, but mine does not. Therefore I constantly have to check KH values and readjust the setting on my pH controller to reach the proper CO2 level in the tank.

I think that my problem might stem mostly from the fact that I have very soft water (less than 1 degree KH), which is inherently unstable and not the best environment for most fish and inverts. Therefore, during water changes I supplement with calcium carbonate and baking soda to raise the KH and GH. I weigh out the two substances to match whatever volume of water I am replacing, so theoretically the water parameters should be fairly constant. However, calcium carbonate does not dissolve very quickly causing low hardness measurements for the few days directly after a water change that will slowly rise. 

If you are already having problems with swinging pH levels (which means KH values are also swinging) I would not get a pH controller. You will be much better off with a conventional system where you can lock in your CO2 levels without worrying about other variables. I would still try to fix your pH/KH problems as well though.


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## badbart (Jul 28, 2009)

I have very hard water and a ph controller, am I wrong in thinking as long as your ph is stable the control should work. I've had zero problems and been running the ph controler for years. Its adjusted just below the level where the fish seem stressed, that 7.4 ph a drop of 1 point from the natural 8.4 ph of my well water.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I didn't think about the pH meter precision, but that's true, the imprecision does make a huge difference in terms of injected CO2 amount. You could maybe get a pH meter with a +/- 0.01 degree precision instead of the Milwaukee one to work around this limitation.
But still, isn't it simpler to just set a fixed rate of CO2 injection with a needle valve, and keep that injection rate no mater the other parameters?


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

My pH did swing a lot - I basically had 1 degree of KH. I was advised to add crushed coral to filter and whoa - my pH shot up from 6.4 to 7.8 and now it's staying there steady. My KH has improved to 3 degrees. So then I was worried the pH was much too high, but i was advised to just leave it alone if it's stable. I know that CO2 will lower the pH, but then go back up again when the CO2 turns off with the lights? Ack, I am not scientifically inclined and I'm struggling to sort this all out.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

badbart said:


> am I wrong in thinking as long as your ph is stable the control should work.


Yes that should be correct. However, if your pH rises for some reason (unrelated to CO2), then you are going to inject too much CO2 with a controller..


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

Jenelle, I don't know how much the crushed coral affects the pH, if you have the high range pH test, you could try it to see if you're past 7.8°.

Otherwise, you could try adding baking soda instead to raise kH to a desired amount.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

So if I DON'T have a pH controller, I had the limited understanding that I would set my bubble counter to about 1 b per sec, running in time with my lights, and then I would watch the drop checker. Is this correct?


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## Desertsp (Feb 17, 2013)

Tom Barr posted an ingenious mod awhile back which combined a "drop-checker" with a pH meter...the effect was to eliminate KH as an unknown variable. 

Basically it involved embedding the tip of the pH prob into a gas-permeable membrane, and filling the void with 4dKH water. Then you drop this into the tank. I don't know what ever came of the concept, but it may be worth looking into.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/co2-enrichment/13603-co2-probe-meter


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

jenelle said:


> So if I DON'T have a pH controller, I had the limited understanding that I would set my bubble counter to about 1 b per sec, running in time with my lights, and then I would watch the drop checker. Is this correct?


Yes and then gradually increase the bubble count.
What you can also do is take 2 samples of your water (say at the end of the day) and
- measure the pH of the 1st one
- degas the 2nd one then measure its pH
if you have 1 pH degree difference, then it's good.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Glude, do you mean do 2 samples one before photo period and one after? And when you say one degree, do you mean let's say 7.8 to 7.7 or 7.8 to 6.8?

Also, I used crushed coral as it was a way to raise my KH and in doing so you also affect pH as they are inextricably linked. It is supposed to be a more consistent way to create a buffer, whereas baking soda would still contend with swings. I think it's okay, but I appreciate your suggestion to get a high range pH kit.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I meant 2 samples when your CO2 is at its maximum (near the end of the photo period would be my guess).
1 degree as in 6.0 vs 7.0

The crushed coral must also raise your gH as a side effect since it's primarily made of Calcium, which is not necessarily your goal. I never used it so I can't really say. (CO2 will dissolve this Calcium even further).
There are multiple ways to raise kH, with different pros/cons. If crushed coral works for you then you can just use that 

To degas the 2nd sample, you need to let it sit overnight for it to reach equilibrium, then test its pH.


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## 3rdworldmon (Jul 22, 2015)

Glude you have a co2 art reg. How is it so far?


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for it... I should get it tomorrow.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Glude, I'd love to hear your full review your CO2 Art purchase because I may be following in your footsteps in the near future.


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

One other thing that I believe is essential is to upgrade from the test kits to a PH pen. You can get a digital PH pen and TDS pen Both for $18 on Amazon. You would be surprised how inaccurate those test kits are. I de-gas my water to test by running an airstone in a jar of tank water for an hour. This drives off all the co2 so I know where the PH starts. My test kits say this is 7.4 on the standard range which is as high as the test goes, and 7.2 on the high range test. My PH pen reads 8.4 from the same sample and it has been calibrated this week so it is accurate. That is a whole PH point off from what it really is. I keep the PH in the tank at 7.2 with co2.

One other thing to watch out for is the drop checker. It takes a couple hours for it to change so it really is telling you what the PH was 2 hours ago. For that reason you need to make changes very gradually and be there to watch what happens. Don't make adjustments if you will be gone for the day.


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## johnpfaff (Oct 18, 2013)

Possibly some who do not like or use a controller have never tried one? Just asking...


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Well, I'm stumped. I log in, read the messages, decide most certainly AGAINST the pH controller, then I log in again, read the messages, and rethink my decision.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

pH controllers can be nice to have, not necessary by any means, but IMHO nice to have none the less.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

johnpfaff said:


> Possibly some who do not like or use a controller have never tried one? Just asking...


I do own a pH controller. I do not think that I would spend the money on one if I purchased another pressurized setup. They are very expensive, and do not provide much, if any, benefit in my mind. A pH controller does not guarantee a stable CO2 value, only a stable pH, which is not very important from everything that I've read. The two values that are of more importance are CO2 and KH, both of which the pH controller does not directly control.

I certainly would not buy one if I knew that I did not have stable KH values in my tank.

If you know that you have stable KH values, then you can use a pH controller to maintain stable CO2 values in your tank. However, is this really that much of a benefit? You can maintain very stable CO2 values in your tank through less expensive methods, it just takes a little more time to set them up properly. Once a conventional pressurized CO2 system is setup you do not have to regularly check up on it anymore than you would a pH controlled setup.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

klibs said:


> To me it is a necessity.
> 
> I run my CO2 off of an Apex pH probe. Drop it down to a certain pH during the photoperiod then it turns off. VERY easy to adjust my levels of CO2. Don't have to worry about screwing with a sensitive needle valve to dial in my levels. If there is too much in the water it simply turns off CO2 at my pre-set pH.
> 
> Want to adjust your CO2? Simply type in the pH value that the CO2 turns off at and you're done


I believe that I bought my pH controller partly because of the opinions that you have about them. At least I think I remember seeing that distinctive Nicholas Cage avatar 

1) I am sure that the Apex Controller that you have it awesome, and makes automating your system easy, organized, and aesthetically pleasing, but do you really think that it is a necessity at around $500? 

2) What kind of adjustments/maintenance did you previously need to make using a conventional pressurized system? What maintenance does your new system require? I am still under the impression that once setup correctly a conventional system is good to go until you need to replace the tank, but maybe I'm missing something never having owned one.

3) How accurate is the pH meter on the Apex system?

4) How do you ensure that your KH values are stable? Do you have to test KH often?


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I personally find Tom Barr's arguments against pH controllers quite logical.
I think keymastr made a good point about the pH pen, I'm going to buy one to get a more reliable reading of the pH.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Okay, so I think I am going to ditch the pH control option, but can you go over with me the importance of knowing EXACTLY what your pH is? I could get the pen, but explain purpose and what to do with information?


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

Glude said:


> I personally find Tom Barr's arguments against pH controllers quite logical.
> I think keymastr made a good point about the pH pen, I'm going to buy one to get a more reliable reading of the pH.


If you are going to purchase a pH meter, definitely pay attention to the accuracy of the device and decide what you need. Most of the less expensive models have an accuracy of only +/-0.1pH which really isn't accurate enough to measure CO2 ppm with any sort of certainty.

I was actually just looking at buying a pH meter, and I think if I was going to purchase one I would get an Anaheim Scientific P771. It is fairly expensive at 70 bucks, but it has an accuracy of +/-0.02pH and a replaceable probe.


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## Vidikron (May 21, 2015)

jonsnow said:


> If you are going to purchase a pH meter, definitely pay attention to the accuracy of the device and decide what you need. Most of the less expensive models have an accuracy of only +/-0.1pH which really isn't accurate enough to measure CO2 ppm with any sort of certainty.


You have made this claim a couple of times and I have to disagree. First, it largely depends on your KH to begin with. If you have a low KH the changes between 0.1 pH changes are relatively small. Also, what are you comparing it to? Counting bubbles and trying to gauge subtle color shifts with your eye? Personally, I think there are multiple ways to accomplish hitting a target CO2 range, but I'm not buying this notion that somehow 0.1 shifts in pH are just too large to deal with.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

jenelle said:


> Okay, so I think I am going to ditch the pH control option, but can you go over with me the importance of knowing EXACTLY what your pH is? I could get the pen, but explain purpose and what to do with information?


The CO2 level in an aquarium cannot be directly measured, at least by anything within my budget. Instead it is measured by using the pH and KH levels of aquarium water and comparing these to a pH, KH and CO2 chart. The pH of water is dependent on both the KH of the water and the amount of CO2 in the water. At a given KH value the pH value will be dependent on the rise and fall of CO2 levels in the water.

To my knowledge, the changes in pH due to fluctuating CO2 levels do not have an effect on the health of fish. Therefore you should not worry about how the CO2 level effects the pH of aquarium water. Only the starting pH of the water, before CO2 is injected, is important to fish health. As far as I understand it, the before CO2 injection pH is what you should be worried about when comparing to fish health charts.

However, KH does directly effect pH values in the tank. And as I understand it, changes in pH due to changes in KH can be harmful to fish. 

If you want to know how much CO2 is in your tank you need to measure KH and pH values. This is what a drop checker does. A drop checker is just a 4dKH solution with a pH indicator solution in it. As the CO2 levels rise and fall within the tank the pH of the drop checker solution changes, which changes the color of the drop checker.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

Vidikron said:


> You have made this claim a couple of times and I have to disagree. First, it largely depends on your KH to begin with. If you have a low KH the changes between 0.1 pH changes are relatively small. Also, what are you comparing it to? Counting bubbles and trying to gauge subtle color shifts with your eye? Personally, I think there are multiple ways to accomplish hitting a target CO2 range, but I'm not buying this notion that somehow 0.1 shifts in pH are just too large to deal with.


What are you trying to measure Vidikron? How accurate do you need that measurement to be?

Looking at the pH/KH/CO2 charts it appears to me that on average a swing of +/-0.1pH coincides with a swing of about +/-5ppm CO2. In my mind that is pretty inaccurate, once you add in even more error with your KH measurements you are probably in the range of +/-10ppm CO2. This kind of inaccuracy seems to defeat the purpose of testing to begin with, but that is just my opinion. With this kind of inaccuracy it seems like going the less expensive route is the better option.

Measuring CO2 with a drop checker probably isn't going to give you a better result than a pH meter and KH tests, but it is a lot cheaper, and provides a constant indicator of the CO2 levels in your tank so you don't have to do tests all of the time.


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## Vidikron (May 21, 2015)

jonsnow said:


> Measuring CO2 with a drop checker probably isn't going to give you a better result than a pH meter and KH tests, but it is a lot cheaper, and provides a constant indicator of the CO2 levels in your tank so you don't have to do tests all of the time.


This is kind of my point. Your previous posts make it sound like a pH controller with 0.1 accuracy is useless. But I would argue it is AT LEAST as accurate as any of the other methods being used. Everything we are doing is "rough"... Counting bubbles and gauging color with your eyes are both very rough. Yes, it is more expensive and may throw it into the "luxury" category, but I don't think a basic pH controller is as useless as you make it sound.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

Vidikron said:


> This is kind of my point. Your previous posts make it sound like a pH controller with 0.1 accuracy is useless. But I would argue it is AT LEAST as accurate as any of the other methods being used. Everything we are doing is "rough"... Counting bubbles and gauging color with your eyes are both very rough. Yes, it is more expensive and may throw it into the "luxury" category, but I don't think a basic pH controller is as useless as you make it sound.


But why should someone spend money on an expensive device that arguably does not provide any added benefit? If the goal is to have a stable CO2 level, a pH controller detracts from that goal. It switches on and off with a pH change of 0.1pH, if the accuracy of the instrument is taken into account this ends up being a swing as large as 0.3pH which means the CO2 level in your tank could be fluctuating as much as 10-20ppm over the course of the day only because you are using a pH controller. 

The only way to ensure a steady level of CO2 in your system is with a steady state supply. My controller switches on and off probably every 30 minutes or so. This means that my CO2 is fluctuating up and down every 30 minutes as well. The fluctuations probably don't effect the plants much, but they aren't really desirable either.

Personal experience here, but I have to fiddle with my pH controller much more than I would a standard system. Every time I do a water change I have to check my KH and adjust the pH on the controller. A KH change of just 0.5dKH will swing the CO2 concentration by 15ppm if you don't adjust the pH setting accordingly. Because of the inaccuracy of the controller, my adjustment is always a best guess and I end up adjusting again depending on how the plants and fish are doing. Again, this is a problem that is unique to my situation, but it ends up requiring more work then if I could just set and forget a standard system.

By the way, this is the pH, KH, CO2 chart that I am using: http://www.theaquariumwiki.com/images/d/da/CO2_Graph.gif
I'm not sure if the one you are looking at is any different.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

Well I guess I was wrong about being able to measure CO2 levels directly. I just came across this kit in another thread http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/carbon-dioxide-test-kit-lamotte.html
It measures CO2 levels from 0-50ppm with an accuracy of +/-1ppm CO2. It's definitely way more accurate than any of the other methods we have been discussing, but at 44 bucks it's kind of expensive and who knows how much of a pita it is to complete a test.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

It is a pH test: read second post http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=955


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

Glude said:


> It is a pH test: read second post http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=955


Good find, it basically states that any acids (other than carbonic acid caused by CO2) or bases in the sample will effect the results. I think that basically makes the test kit useless for our circumstances because you would need to measure the KH and pH values of your tank water using other, less accurate methods anyways.

Edit: I'm not actually sure if the information above is correct. I asked a representative if the accuracy of the LaMotte test was effected by pH or KH values of the water, and they said that it was not. I would verify this information if you are truly interested in knowing it.

The question and answer I got from a Bulk Reef Supply rep is as follows:
Question: Is the accuracy of this test effected by other compounds in the water other than CO2? Is it accurate to +/-1ppm CO2 regardless of the KH or pH of the water being tested? 
Answer: Great question! The test is looking only for free carbon, it will measure to +-1 PPM out of tap water. The kH should not effect the test as the carbonate in kH is bound vs free carbon of co2.

This answer seems to contradict the answer given by a different representative on another thread, so I really don't know what the answer is.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

You guys are wayyy ahead of me on the science here. I'm learning from this discussion but in terms of a simple and standard system - I lack the time to do constant testing - I can use my observations and drop checker rather that a pH electrode with the plan of turning co2 on let's say half hour after lights come on and turning off half hour before lights go off. I'd start with 1 bps and maybe work my way up. Correct?


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jenelle said:


> You guys are wayyy ahead of me on the science here. I'm learning from this discussion but in terms of a simple and standard system - I lack the time to do constant testing - I can use my observations and drop checker rather that a pH electrode with the plan of turning co2 on let's say half hour after lights come on and turning off half hour before lights go off. I'd start with 1 bps and maybe work my way up. Correct?


They are taking it wayyy further that it actually is, I call it picking fly poop out of pepper, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. Those of us who know HOW to use such equipment do so without a care in the world for .1 percent readings. Calibrate the probe properly once a week once every other week and forget it...

Anywho with that said, that sounds like a fair starting point, however I suggest starting the CO2 1 hour before lights on and stop it 1 hour before lights off. If your going to use a drop checker give it a couple of hours to give you an accurate reading, and if you make an adjustment give the DC a couple of hours to reflect that change, and watch your fish for signs of distress during the setup and adjustment phases, keep an air pump and stone on hand in case you need to off-gas CO2 if the fish start gasping.


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## whitepapagold (Aug 19, 2010)

Heres a thought-

Neither Tom Barr or Takashi Amano use PH controllers.

And both shut the CO2 off at night.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> They are taking it wayyy further that it actually is, I call it picking fly poop out of pepper, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. Those of us who know HOW to use such equipment do so without a care in the world for .1 percent readings. Calibrate the probe properly once a week once every other week and forget it...
> 
> Anywho with that said, that sounds like a fair starting point, however I suggest starting the CO2 1 hour before lights on and stop it 1 hour before lights off. If your going to use a drop checker give it a couple of hours to give you an accurate reading, and if you make an adjustment give the DC a couple of hours to reflect that change, and watch your fish for signs of distress during the setup and adjustment phases, keep an air pump and stone on hand in case you need to off-gas CO2 if the fish start gasping.


Hahaha, I'd have to sort of agree, but I think you have to take it to that level of detail when discussing the merits of a pH controller.

I will agree, that I think your best bet is to buy a drop checker and start with 1bps and adjust slowly from there. Once you have it set you will probably never need to touch it again. 

I would look into making sure you get a good CO2 diffuser/reactor. Some of them are incredibly inefficient, releasing bubbles that float to the top of your tank and never absorb into the water, but that's probably a conversation best dedicated to another thread.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

I'm looking at an inline diffuser by co2 art. Of course this alone causes me some concern about how to install. You're talking to the girl who put the gasket in the wrong spot in her new canister thus causing a minor flood in the living room. My husband was very impressed. So you can see there is some pressure not to cause any catastrophes if I invest in pressurized co2!


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> *They are taking it wayyy further that it actually is, I call it picking fly poop out of pepper, but everybody is entitled to their opinion. *Those of us who know HOW to use such equipment do so without a care in the world for .1 percent readings. Calibrate the probe properly once a week once every other week and forget it...
> 
> Anywho with that said, that sounds like a fair starting point, however I suggest starting the CO2 1 hour before lights on and stop it 1 hour before lights off. If your going to use a drop checker give it a couple of hours to give you an accurate reading, and if you make an adjustment give the DC a couple of hours to reflect that change, and watch your fish for signs of distress during the setup and adjustment phases, keep an air pump and stone on hand in case you need to off-gas CO2 if the fish start gasping.


LOL could not agree with you more :hihi:
Typical of forums, ask a simple question & you get all sorts of chemistry, engineering , scientific replies which more often than not , leaves the the person asking more confused.
PH controllers are effective for CO2 control , once the Probe is well maintained & Calibrated.
Luxury or not is dependent on individual circumstances.
In your case , i would go with a controller , if you are comfortable with calibrating the probe as mentioned (which BTW is simple to do)
& your budget allows.
Regards


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## tetra120 (Mar 21, 2008)

Here is what I did, right or wrong.

Buy a PH pen, http://www.amazon.com/Dr-Meter®-Tem...4?s=industrial&ie=UTF8&qid=1440019151&sr=1-14 

very easy to calibrate, get a gallon of distilled water.

test your ph before the co2 comes on, mine is 1.5 hours before lights come on)
slowly set your needle valve to get a ph drop of 1-1.5 ph, the pen will tell you way before the drop checker does, fish will also.

if you have a good needle valve, this is all you need to do.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Okay, so if I get the pH pen, I would basically be doing a confirmation of the drop checker and when my pH drops a full degree, then I know I that I have the correct amount of CO2 going into tank. Is that right?


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

jenelle said:


> Okay, so if I get the pH pen, I would basically be doing a confirmation of the drop checker and when my pH drops a full degree, then I know I that I have the correct amount of CO2 going into tank. Is that right?


Yep, that's the general idea.

Just FYI, drop checkers are very slow to react and can take an hour or more to show a pH change. 

With your pH pen you will have an instant reading and really don't need a drop checker unless you just want a visual clue.


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## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*ph controller*



jenelle said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I've been continuing on with my research into CO2 equipment and I'm at the stumbling block about the pH controller - I'd really prefer not to have one as my brain is blown just setting up a system without it.
> 
> ...


 I have used co2 with and without a controller. I am using one now and will never go without it. This will 100% solve your ph swings. Only a small wire from the probe will be coming out of the top of your aquarium. If you have a heater , the wire from it needs a place to come out of the tank. Same with the probe. A ph controller is a dream in my opinion. Get one and I guarantee you will be glad you did.


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Rick Dale - Wow, you really have thrown a wrench into my thinking. Can you detail how your experience has been different with and without a pH controller as there seems to be a debate about how important pH swings are to begin with.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jenelle said:


> Rick Dale - Wow, you really have thrown a wrench into my thinking. Can you detail how your experience has been different with and without a pH controller as there seems to be a debate about how important pH swings are to begin with.


The debate is nit-picky... IF you use a controller you want the pH reading to drop a full point, so if your controller starts at 6.7, you want it to shut off CO2 at 5.7. There is no need to constantly adjust the controller, just calibrate the probe every week or two and leave the dial alone. pH controllers are basically set and forget, keep an eye on your tank pressure and calibrate the probe.

With a drop checker the color of the fluid tells you what you saturation level is, I think most run it a lime green.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> There is no need to constantly adjust the controller, just calibrate the probe every week or two and leave the dial alone. pH controllers are basically set and forget


By calibrating the probe, you do mean ensure that the probe pH reading is accurate, correct?

What about water changes?
Example:
Initial situation:
- your tank water has a stable pH of 7.0 without CO2
- you have rightfully set your pH controller to 6.0 

Water change:
- you make a 50% water change
- For some reason your tap water has a pH of 8.0

Now the aquarium water without CO2 would have a pH of what, 7.5?
So you need to set the pH controller to 6.5 otherwise you would inject too much CO2.
Then you have driftwood in your tank that slowly brings the pH (without CO2) down, and as it decreases you inject less and less CO2...

Is my reasonning correct?

When you don't use a pH controller, no matter the evolution of the water parameters, you just dose a constant, steady amount of CO2 of 30 ppm.
The whole EI method is based on the principle that we don't know how much the plants use, so we overdose nutrients, and with the 50% water changes, we maintain a constant overdose.
Why apply a different rule when it comes to CO2, which is just like any other nutrient.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Glude said:


> By calibrating the probe, you do mean ensure that the probe pH reading is accurate, correct?
> 
> What about water changes?
> Example:
> ...


Your making a mountain out of a mole hill...

This is a hobby, not brain surgery. My tap water is constant, the reading I get when my CO2 comes on at noon every day is constant, my controller shuts off the CO2 a full 1 point below its' start point everyday. I see it when it comes on and look at it later when it's off, I do this as I'm feeding and/or walking by the tank. My dosing regime keeps my tank conditions constant, therefore I need not make adjustments. My probe is cleaned and calibrated once every 2 weeks with at most a .2 drift, not enough to worry about. It really is that simple, no really, it is.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I don't think I am.. just trying to elaborate a logically valid theory.
And you're lucky, my tap water is not constant at all.. 1 full point of pH variation is fairly common here in Montreal, no idea why though.

What I am saying is: pH controllers are not a matter of luxury, they are dangerous for your livestock if your tap water pH varies day to day.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Glude said:


> I don't think I am.. just trying to elaborate a logically valid theory.
> And you're lucky, my tap water is not constant at all.. 1 full point of pH variation is fairly common here in Montreal, no idea why though.
> 
> What I am saying is: pH controllers are not a matter of luxury, they are dangerous for your livestock if your tap water pH varies day to day.


kH and gH dictate pH, keep the first two constant and the last one will balance out to its' natural level. When you get that variance do you run an air stone in a sample and test it later? The variance could be a temporary thing?

I still say you guys (gals) are WAY over thinking this. If my tap water fluctuated that much I'd go RO and re-mineralize it, again leaving me with a constant.

I check kH,gH, & pH on my tap 3X a year, in the spring the kH fluctuates a tad if we have heavy spring rains, but it never changes anything in the tank. CO2 injection in and of itself can cause the kH and gH to change as the excited plant growth can us these minerals, if I don't dose my tank with baking soda and gH booster then my pH WILL start to become erratic, however it leads the controller to inject less CO2 that it should when I keep it constant, no threat to fish, but runs the risk of BBA, so I keep it constant. I test those 3 variables in my tank once a month during a WC just to make sure it has stayed on track. Sure I've had to make adjustments on my dosing, but they've been minor and wouldn't matter to anyone but myself for the most part, and it's rare.

When I first joined here I was told I was over thinking things to much and I made myself stop, boy what a relief, now my tanks are much less a chore and more enjoyable than they've ever been, which is the whole point of having a hobby.

Cheers


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

Well said. Sorry for opening a can of worms with the suggestion of a PH pen. My point was merely to point out that the test kits were pretty inaccurate. You could still test that way and many do but for such a cheap upgrade it just makes sense to get that level of accuracy. 

As for the PH controller, there is no right answer. You can see examples of beautiful tanks that use both methods. Whether you use one or not you still need to pay attention to GH and KH and keeping those stable is maybe the most important part of this hobby. Those two parameters affect how every living thing functions in your tank, plants, fish and even the bio- filter.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

keymastr said:


> As for the PH controller, there is no right answer. You can see examples of beautiful tanks that use both methods. Whether you use one or not you still need to pay attention to GH and KH and keeping those stable is maybe the most important part of this hobby. Those two parameters affect how every living thing functions in your tank, plants, fish and even the bio- filter.


^This

If your KH and pH are not stable, your CO2 levels produced by a pH controller will not be stable either, unless you constantly test them and reset the controller. It sounds like FatherLandDescendant has a good method where he checks the pH on the controller before the CO2 is turned on and resets it for a 1pH drop everyday, but this is maintenance. It is an extra step that you have to take everyday on top of recalibrating the probe every two weeks.

The standard method may take more effort to setup, but as I understand it once you have set it up you almost never need to check on it or adjust it. Once a standard system is set up properly you never need to worry about changes in pH or KH effecting your CO2 levels, so, I repeat, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A STABLE SYSTEM (pH and KH fluctuate) A PH CONTROLLER IS NOT THE BEST METHOD FOR CONTROLLING CO2 INJECTION. If anyone still disagrees with this statement please explain why.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jonsnow said:


> It sounds like FatherLandDescendant has a good method where he checks the pH on the controller before the CO2 is turned on and resets it for a 1pH drop everyday,


I haven't reset the dial on my controller in 6 months, I just read the screen every day, that's how I know when it's time to change the tank:hihi: When it's 2pm and the pH is 6.4 I know my CO2 cylinder is empty. The only time I adjust the controller is during calibration


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Best thing about not using a controller - save money and one less weak point in the system. It saves time on thinking about setting up such a system. Also, this allows you to have fluctuating pH & KH levels in your tank, and not worry. Small fluctuations across the week in KH doesn't impact livestock or plants. Many of us use seiryu/limestone or buffering substrates in our tanks - this means that KH will fluctuate to a certain degree.

At the end of the day, how much CO2 to inject is most accurately tied to the growth conditions of your plants, and not some magical value. Some tanks require more, some do with much less. Focusing on plant reaction allows fine tuning that a machine will not have the sensitivity for


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

jonsnow said:


> 1) I am sure that the Apex Controller that you have it awesome, and makes automating your system easy, organized, and aesthetically pleasing, but do you really think that it is a necessity at around $500?


After purchasing it I would not want to run a high tech tank without it. I was convinced that it was worth it within 48 hrs of my purchase. Can you get the same results without it? Yes

I suppose nothing that automates your tank is 'a necessity' when it comes down to it. I am just very strongly in favor of controllers after going through hassles of trying to get CO2 right.



jonsnow said:


> 2) What kind of adjustments/maintenance did you previously need to make using a conventional pressurized system? What maintenance does your new system require? I am still under the impression that once setup correctly a conventional system is good to go until you need to replace the tank, but maybe I'm missing something never having owned one.


I spent a lot of time screwing around with bubble count, surface agitation, drop checker readings, designing reactors that work properly and then adjusting all of this again, etc...

With a pH controller it is simple:
- Have a stable tank
- Determine at what pH your CO2 is at an ideal level (takes some trial and error and monitoring of plants/fish)
- Set CO2 regulator to turn on/off at this pH

Add another powerhead that makes more surface agitation? doesn't matter
Want to bump up your CO2 levels a bit? just adjust the pH meter

No screwing with very touchy needle valves and trying to tell how many bubbles are going into your tank. At a certain point it is just a stream of bubbles.



jonsnow said:


> 3) How accurate is the pH meter on the Apex system?


Accurate enough. I really don't even care. Variance of even +-0.02 pH would still not matter. As long as the CO2 in my tank is at a ballpark 'good' level then the system does its job. I do know that they make a more expensive 'lab grade' pH meter for the Apex that is very accurate. IMO the one that comes with it works good enough. It reads out to hundredths (ex: my CO2 turns off at 6.73)



jonsnow said:


> 4) How do you ensure that your KH values are stable? Do you have to test KH often?


Don't care. It is stable enough and I don't worry about how much of a difference this makes. I do water changes on a schedule, dose ferts on a schedule, etc. My kH has not really varied that wildly at all (when I test it which is very infrequently).
I just watch my plants and if I see deficiencies I turn down the pH cutoff a bit so more CO2 gets in the tank. I tweak it often enough so that it is worth having the controller.


For me it's all about peace of mind and ease of adjustment. I will never gas my fish. For that reason alone it is worth the investment. If something goes down my CO2 will shut off before that happens.

I'm telling you guys if you buy a pH controller you will absolutely not regret the purchase.




Xiaozhuang said:


> Best thing about not using a controller - save money and one less weak point in the system. It saves time on thinking about setting up such a system. Also, this allows you to have fluctuating pH & KH levels in your tank, and not worry. Small fluctuations across the week in KH doesn't impact livestock or plants. Many of us use seiryu/limestone or buffering substrates in our tanks - this means that KH will fluctuate to a certain degree.
> 
> At the end of the day, how much CO2 to inject is most accurately tied to the growth conditions of your plants, and not some magical value. Some tanks require more, some do with much less. Focusing on plant reaction allows fine tuning that a machine will not have the sensitivity for


+1 to Dennis' post

At the end of the day you just need to monitor your plants. I personally think that making adjustments based on monitoring is made so much easier with a controller that it is worth it to me vs barely turning my needle valve and hoping I don't gas my fish.

I also have a feeling that on larger tanks it is much more difficult to gauge how much CO2 is coming out of your bubble counter. On a smaller tank I would not feel the need for it as much.



IMO people need to chill out on getting so into the science behind this stuff. To me it is more of an art. Like Dennis said there is no 'magic setup' that is perfect and will guarantee success no matter what. Everyone's water, tanks, plants, systems, etc are different. Just learn how your plants react and focus on that. What works for one person may or may not work for another due to any number of reasons. Trying so hard to quantify all of these reasons is silly.


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

klibs said:


> For me it's all about peace of mind and ease of adjustment. I will never gas my fish. For that reason alone it is worth the investment. If something goes down my CO2 will shut off before that happens.


What if something goes up? 
pH for instance...

By the way, klibs, what regulator/needle valve do you have?


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

klibs said:


> I spent a lot of time screwing around with bubble count, surface agitation, drop checker readings, designing reactors that work properly and then adjusting all of this again, etc...
> 
> With a pH controller it is simple:
> - Have a stable tank
> ...


This is all insight that I do not have, never having owned a standard system, so it is definitely nice to know. It also makes a standard system seem more of a pita than I envisioned. 



klibs said:


> Accurate enough. I really don't even care. Variance of even +-0.02 pH would still not matter. As long as the CO2 in my tank is at a ballpark 'good' level then the system does its job. I do know that they make a more expensive 'lab grade' pH meter for the Apex that is very accurate. IMO the one that comes with it works good enough. It reads out to hundredths (ex: my CO2 turns off at 6.73)
> 
> 
> Don't care. It is stable enough and I don't worry about how much of a difference this makes. I do water changes on a schedule, dose ferts on a schedule, etc. My kH has not really varied that wildly at all (when I test it which is very infrequently).
> I just watch my plants and if I see deficiencies I turn down the pH cutoff a bit so more CO2 gets in the tank. I tweak it often enough so that it is worth having the controller.


I think that this is where I have to disagree with you. It sounds like you have a very accurate pH controller, but most of them, including mine, only have an accuracy of +/-0.1pH which means you can only estimate your CO2 levels to an accuracy of about +/-5ppm CO2. You are right that this is not that big of a deal, as it gives you a good starting point, and you can finely adjust depending on plant health. 

You imply that a small variation in KH will not effect the CO2 levels much, but what is a small variation to you? Looking at the chart, CO2 levels will vary by as much as 15ppm with a change of 0.5dKH if your controller is set at 6pH. This change lessons to about 5ppm CO2 if your controller is set at 6.5pH, but to me that still sounds like a relatively significant variation.

I do own a pH controller and I do not think that it is the best method for my circumstances, but at the end of the day it sounds like you are one of the only people in this thread who have used both a pH controller and conventional means of controlling CO2, so your opinion is probably more valid than mine. I am also rather jealous of the Apex controller you have, that thing looks really nice.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jonsnow said:


> This is all insight that I do not have, never having owned a standard system, so it is definitely nice to know. It also makes a standard system seem more of a pita than I envisioned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I keep seeing this discussion of accuracy, how accurate do you think PH , KH & CO2 needs to be?
In my experience , i tend to subscribe to the thought that it`s not nearly as important that some of us make it out to be, this all comes back to over thinking in this hobby.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

jonsnow said:


> You imply that a small variation in KH will not effect the CO2 levels much, but what is a small variation to you? Looking at the chart, CO2 levels will vary by as much as 15ppm with a change of 0.5dKH if your controller is set at 6pH. This change lessons to about 5ppm CO2 if your controller is set at 6.5pH, but to me that still sounds like a relatively significant variation.


That could be! All I know is that my system is stable right now and when anything steps out of line it takes me 10 seconds to fix it. I certainly have not come home to a tank full of algae because my CO2 levels are so far off due to a kH swing (not even sure how that would happen) or something else.

While I do agree with you that a total 'set it and forget it forever' pH meter approach is not the best idea I do think it is a good way to easily make the adjustments that you would already need to make anyways.



charlie 1 said:


> I keep seeing this discussion of accuracy, how accurate do you think PH , KH & CO2 needs to be?
> In my experience , i tend to subscribe to the thought that it`s not nearly as important that some of us make it out to be, this all comes back to over thinking in this hobby.


Completely agree with this statement

Again - just watch plants/fish. They will tell you what your CO2 situation is. I still firmly believe that everyone tries to overthink the hobby and make it more complicated than it has to be. For me I got my pH controller method to work for me. For others it might not but I am a firm believer that it is beneficial no matter what.

It's like there is some assumption that the pH/CO2/kH relationship is a perfect science that is always correct. There is no way that is the case! Way too many factors there to accurately say how much pH will swing, how much CO2 is in the tank, etc etc etc. There are basically no mathematical truths in planted tanks if you ask me. Just experiment, find out what works, and do a good job maintaining it.


AFTERTHOUGHT:
Some geniuses need to develop an accurate CO2 meter for aquariums. Would make a killing! I know I saw something like that on kickstarter or whatever a long time ago but I don't think it ever came to fruition.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

charlie 1 said:


> I keep seeing this discussion of accuracy, how accurate do you think PH , KH & CO2 needs to be?
> In my experience , i tend to subscribe to the thought that it`s not nearly as important that some of us make it out to be, this all comes back to over thinking in this hobby.


EXACTLY!!!!!!!

People are making this out to be *WAY, WAY, WAY, WAY MORE *complicated than it actually is. I would tear out what little hair I have left worrying over a .1 or .2 shift, jebus cripes some people need a valume and a drink.

@ klibs; your last couple of posts were great, I'll be getting myself an apex here in the near future:hihi:


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Glude said:


> What if something goes up?
> pH for instance...
> 
> By the way, klibs, what regulator/needle valve do you have?


I think it is an old GLA Choice. I got it from some guy on craigsList. Not sure what needle valve it has but it is rock-solid (does not vary once set). It is very small though - diameter of the part you turn to adjust it is no more than 1/8".



FatherLandDescendant said:


> I'll be getting myself an apex here in the near future:hihi:[/SIZE]


You won't regret it! IMO it is only truly worth it if you put eventually put your lights, CO2, etc on it. To me if you use it to control light levels and CO2 then it is worth it. Not for one or the other. And you can add so much more (complex auto-top-offs, fish feeding, wavemaker control, dosing, etc).

The only things that my unit 'controls' are my lights, heater, and CO2. Everything else is an added bonus by being able to flick my powerheads, filters, etc on and off at my computer when doing maintenance on the tank


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm trying to automate things as much as possible in my tank as well, I think you guys see the pH controller as one more tool for automation.
It's true I never used a pH controller, maybe the experience will prove me wrong, but really, I think in this case a needle valve is much more "automated" than a pH controller, since it doesn't need maintenance, you just figure the right flow once, and that's it..
Now I don't know how long it takes to find the right CO2 flow. The good thing is you can always add a pH controller later on.


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

charlie 1 said:


> I keep seeing this discussion of accuracy, how accurate do you think PH , KH & CO2 needs to be?
> In my experience , i tend to subscribe to the thought that it`s not nearly as important that some of us make it out to be, this all comes back to over thinking in this hobby.


If you wanted to guarantee that you could measure CO2 within a +/-5ppm range you would probably need to measure pH to within +/-0.05pH and KH to within +/-0.25dKH, but that's not really my point. My point is that if your system pH or KH is not constant, your CO2 level will not be stable if it is controlled by a pH controller. Even small variations in the pH or KH of a system can have very large effects on the CO2 levels in the system. The inaccuracy of your measurements will only compound the issue even further.

I understand the train of thought that people want to keep it simple, and that the science is unnecessary as long as you pay attention to the fish and plants, but if this is the case why are you spending a ton of money on a pH controller, which will end up increasing the maintenance requirements of your system, and whose function is literally based off of the science that you have deemed unnecessary??? To me that seems like you are accepting two opposing philosophies. On one hand you are claiming that the numbers don't really matter, but on the other you are going out and buying a pH controller so that you can control the numbers???


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## Glude (Jul 16, 2014)

jonsnow, I wanted to say exactly the same thing lol..
I came to think that Milwaukee just makes bad quality regulators and makes good profits on them. Then they provide the fix to that bad quality in the way of a pH controller: double profit.
Then salespeople can sell it to you saying you're going to consume much less CO2 with the controller, and buyers can feel reassured: the pH controller says everything is good!


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Yeah you're right but kH and pH don't really jump around all that much (from what I have seen). My water's standing pH has been right up at like 7.95 for as long as I can remember which is at least a year. Since I set up my tank my kH has read out at 4 since I set it up. If you can for sure say that pH and kH can vary that much in a stable system then pH controllers would be much more unreliable. Week to week though I am willing to bet that these numbers don't change at all.

My point is certainly not that a pH controller is a better way to do it and without one you cannot succeed. My point is that I think it is a convenience that I could no longer live without.

I don't use my pH controller scientifically - rather as a means to adjust how much CO2 is in my tank based on what I observe. I didn't sit down and crunch numbers to determine I need a pH of 6.73 in order to have ideal CO2 levels. Rather I adjusted the value at which my CO2 shuts off at based on what gave me good results (which is exactly what you would do if you adjusted the needle valve - watch your plants for ideal CO2 levels)

When I was setting things up if my plants showed signs of needing more CO2 I drop the cutoff point down by like 0.02 pH at a time until things look good again. If I raise my light levels I usually adjust the CO2 as well by dropping the pH cutoff. It's really the same thing as adjusting a bubble counter - I just feel more comfortable having it controlled this way.

There are times when adjusting my needle valve before where I have turned it up too much. Then bubbles blast out like crazy and I'm like ' oh crap let me see if I can find the level it was before I adjusted this'. Meanwhile bubbles are coming out at like 10 bps and it is just a stream and I can't even tell. Gives me a much more peace of mind to go on my Apex and drop the pH limit down. I know that dropping it down a few hundredths of a pH at a time will not cause anything drastic to happen.

Each way has advantages/disadvantages - I just think that after doing both it is easier with a pH controller. I mess with my tank all the time (ramping up light slowly over time, adjusting CO2 based on needs, adjusting flow/surface agitation, etc) so for me it's way more convenient than fiddling with a needle valve if I add more surface agitation. The things I mess with do not affect pH or kH so I feel safe in having it controlled based on those factors.

Next time I go to long sands (my favorite beach) we could grab some lunch and argue about it


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

klibs said:


> Next time I go to long sands (my favorite beach) we could grab some lunch and argue about it


Hahaha, I didn't even realize that you were in the area. Long sands is a nice beach, that's usually where I go surfing, but I don't think there's anything left to argue about. We hashed it out pretty good lol. 

What's your favorite LFS in this neck of the woods? Maine Pet Supply is the best that I have found, but I'm always looking for more places to look at fish


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

klibs said:


> You won't regret it! IMO it is only truly worth it if you put eventually put your lights, CO2, etc on it. To me if you use it to control light levels and CO2 then it is worth it. Not for one or the other. And you can add so much more (complex auto-top-offs, fish feeding, wavemaker control, dosing, etc).
> 
> The only things that my unit 'controls' are my lights, heater, and CO2. Everything else is an added bonus by being able to flick my powerheads, filters, etc on and off at my computer when doing maintenance on the tank


I like gadgets. I plan on running the entire system through it, once I get it I can set the moon light phase on my +Pro to run for viewing and use the controller to shut them off at night, I'd use the controller to dim the lights and do a step down intensity fade out throughout the day but I've yet to see the harness to make my fixture compatible.

The temp probe I plan on using as a fail safe setting the cutoff a couple of degrees higher than the set point of my heater, and of course the CO2, I didn't know the Apex probe read to .00 my Milwaukee only goes to .0.

Plus the ability to monitor the tank if/when I go out of town via the WWW, make adjustments, shut down filters and heaters during WC, or just mess with my roommates turning the light on and off while I'm at work:tongue:



Glude said:


> I'm trying to automate things as much as possible in my tank as well, I think you guys see the pH controller as one more tool for automation.


Correct just one more tool, I can just bring my fish to gasping for air, dial it back a hair and walk away, the result is the max saturation that the livestock can handle and I don't need a very precise needle valve to do it. 




Glude said:


> It's true I never used a pH controller, maybe the experience will prove me wrong, but really, I think in this case a needle valve is much more "automated" than a pH controller, since it doesn't need maintenance, you just figure the right flow once, and that's it..


I have the Milwaukee MC122 I got it and the regulator for like $90 on fleabay, the biggy water value to watch is kH once you get that stable, you get the flow set and the shutoff set you just walk away, if anything the kH goes down and your not injecting as much CO2, the only time I worry about kH going up is when I add a new rock to the tank and those I check before I even put them in. My flow is set to minimize the micro bubbles in the tank, my cutoff is set just below what the fish can handle.




Glude said:


> Now I don't know how long it takes to find the right CO2 flow. The good thing is you can always add a pH controller later on.


With a drop checker it takes an hour or two to see if you need to bump it up, then you go and adjust the needle valve. With a controller I set the flow to limit the micro bubbles in the tank and if I need more CO2 I just tweek the knob on the controller. With either or you have to watch your livestock for signs of distress. IMHO it's easier to find that maximum dilution threshold with a controller, I only have to adjust the controller not the needle valve wondering if I turned it down to much or not enough.

I bought my controller and solenoid as a set it was cheaper that way, otherwise I wouldn't even be using a controller at this point. When I was in the market for a regulator you could get just the Milwaukee regulator for like $75 OR you could get the regulator and the MC122 for like $90, so I spent the extra $15, why wouldn't I?



jonsnow said:


> If you wanted to guarantee that you could measure CO2 within a +/-5ppm range you would probably need to measure pH to within +/-0.05pH and KH to within +/-0.25dKH, but that's not really my point. My point is that if your system pH or KH is not constant, your CO2 level will not be stable if it is controlled by a pH controller. Even small variations in the pH or KH of a system can have very large effects on the CO2 levels in the system. The inaccuracy of your measurements will only compound the issue even further.
> 
> I understand the train of thought that people want to keep it simple, and that the science is unnecessary as long as you pay attention to the fish and plants, but if this is the case why are you spending a ton of money on a pH controller, which will end up increasing the maintenance requirements of your system, and whose function is literally based off of the science that you have deemed unnecessary??? To me that seems like you are accepting two opposing philosophies. On one hand you are claiming that the numbers don't really matter, but on the other you are going out and buying a pH controller so that you can control the numbers???


Understanding the science is helpful, but if your running at the maximum threshold limit (MTL) a .1, .2 or even .25 variance isn't really anything to worry over, it just isn't, even the charts are just a ballpark estimate, heck if I went off the chart my non-CO2 injected tank at this very moment is running at 24ppm ain't no way on the face of this planet I have 24ppm CO2 in my low tech tank at best it's closer to 5ppm and that's assuming it's atmospherically balanced which is doubtful. If I could actuall get the 24ppm the charts say I should have in that tank just running an air driven sponge filter I wouldn't need to inject CO2 into any tank at all, I'd just need to run an air stone.

I've been running my controller for 6+ months on my high tech tank, I've not gassed one single fish to date and the BBA that resulted from CO2 issues happened before I understood the correlation between kH and pH, now I keep my kH between 3-5 (depending on the day of the week) and the system runs like a well oiled machine. Better than watching a drop checker and fiddling with the needle valve regularly IMHO.



Glude said:


> I came to think that Milwaukee just makes bad quality regulators and makes good profits on them. Then they provide the fix to that bad quality in the way of a pH controller: double profit.
> Then salespeople can sell it to you saying you're going to consume much less CO2 with the controller, and buyers can feel reassured: the pH controller says everything is good!


My Milwaukee regulator works just fine, the ONLY 2 problems I've had with their regulator are, 1 their set up instructions are WRONG, they'll have you trying to dial it in for days, and 2 I had a weak solenoid that would stick open in what's called mag lock or magnetic lock, called their CS department and they sent me a new solenoid out right away no questions asked. I was even looking for some neoprene washers to fit the stem they use a couple of weeks ago and they sent me 2 new ones in the mail, again no questions asked. They have top notch customer service:hihi:


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## jonsnow (May 1, 2015)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> Understanding the science is helpful, but if your running at the maximum threshold limit (MTL) a .1, .2 or even .25 variance isn't really anything to worry over, it just isn't, even the charts are just a ballpark estimate, heck if I went off the chart my non-CO2 injected tank at this very moment is running at 24ppm ain't no way on the face of this planet I have 24ppm CO2 in my low tech tank at best it's closer to 5ppm and that's assuming it's atmospherically balanced which is doubtful. If I could actuall get the 24ppm the charts say I should have in that tank just running an air driven sponge filter I wouldn't need to inject CO2 into any tank at all, I'd just need to run an air stone.
> 
> I've been running my controller for 6+ months on my high tech tank, I've not gassed one single fish to date and the BBA that resulted from CO2 issues happened before I understood the correlation between kH and pH, now I keep my kH between 3-5 (depending on the day of the week) and the system runs like a well oiled machine. Better than watching a drop checker and fiddling with the needle valve regularly IMHO.


I am very surprised at the fact that your fish are OK under these conditions. There is either something I inherently do no understand about what is going on, or the charts themselves are wrong. You claim that you are running CO2 at the MTL for fish? What is this number exactly?

Lets say you set your controller to a pH of 6.3pH on a day when your KH measures 3dKH (shooting for 45ppm CO2). Assuming an accuracy of +/-0.1pH and a KH range over the week of 3-5dKH your CO2 levels will range anywhere between 35ppm to 95ppm CO2. That is a crazy amount of fluctuation, and definitely not something that I would be willing to deal with. Personally, I think that if your KH fluctuates by 2dKH over the course of the week you should not be using a pH controller, but it sounds like it's working for you so what do I know


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

kH tests are probably not very accurate (few tests are...). I still find it hard to believe that kH could vary that much anyways (what would cause that?)

I don't think those charts are exact. Even if we could accurately measure the exact kH and pH of a tank it certainly does not mean that there is a defined amount of CO2 in a tank. I feel like too many factors must go into kH and pH readings for that to make sense for me.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jonsnow said:


> I am very surprised at the fact that your fish are OK under these conditions. There is either something I inherently do no understand about what is going on, or the charts themselves are wrong.


What you don't understand is that this IS NOT EXACT NOR PRECISE!!! Quit putting so much importance on exacting unequivocal precision... 



jonsnow said:


> You claim that you are running CO2 at the MTL for fish? What is this number exactly?


Again IT'S NOT A NUMBER!!! Geeze, the MTL for my tank is just before the fish suffocate to death...




jonsnow said:


> Lets say you set your controller to a pH of 6.3pH on a day when your KH measures 3dKH (shooting for 45ppm CO2). Assuming an accuracy of +/-0.1pH and a KH range over the week of 3-5dKH your CO2 levels will range anywhere between 35ppm to 95ppm CO2. That is a crazy amount of fluctuation, and definitely not something that I would be willing to deal with. Personally, I think that if your KH fluctuates by 2dKH over the course of the week you should not be using a pH controller, but it sounds like it's working for you so what do I know


Lets don't!

Gods I use to be that unrelenting, it's not that involved, it's not so dependent on the charts, the charts are just a STARTING POINT. At SOME POINT you have to say to hell with the chart and look at your setup with your eyes, not your over active brain, you notice that your fish look like they need CPR, or that man that DHG is pearling like crazy, that's when you know you've got it right. Relax, turn the brain box off and just enjoy, save all that perfection to impress your boss at work with...


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## jenelle (Sep 12, 2014)

Well, 80 posts later, and although I've only understand half of the science here, I've decided AGAINST a pH Controller and I'm back to GLA Gro System - simple, high quality and Orlando is extremely helpful when I send him questions.

BTW, FatherLandDescendent, you crack me up. Are you always this funny on the forums?


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Good for you on the decision and for starting such an informational thread


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

jenelle said:


> Well, 80 posts later, and although I've only understand half of the science here, I've decided AGAINST a pH Controller and I'm back to GLA Gro System - simple, high quality and Orlando is extremely helpful when I send him questions.
> 
> BTW, FatherLandDescendent, you crack me up. Are you always this funny on the forums?


I'm even funnier in person:hihi:


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