# Preventing End of Tank Dump with Dual Regulator?



## Warbler (Sep 30, 2013)

Hello, unfortunate day in my household. I have one high tech aquarium that is my pride and joy. This morning I noticed a couple of flipped over fish on the bottom of the tank, but still alive, and fish at the top of the tank struggling to breathe. Noticed that CO2 bubbles were at a very fast rate and my heart sank...I had never experienced it before but it looks like an End of Tank dump. Unfortunately lost most of my fish. Luckily still have 5 narrow wedge rasbora and 2 ember tetras left, but it's still quite a shock coming down from 20 rasboras and 4 embers. And then of course my male fire red agasizii apisto had to die too...his mate is still alive but not to be callous, he was the pretty one of the pair. 

The problem is that I actually had a dual regulator set up, the GLA Gro-1. Which is a shame because I otherwise loved it. This was my first high tech planted tank, so I thought that having a dual regulator was supposed to prevent any end of tank dumps? Do I just always have to be cautious about whether my CO2 tank is emptying or not? How do I prevent this from happening again, basically. I'm just super bummed out, especially since my tank was otherwise going really well. 

Thanks everybody


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Dual stage does. Dual gauge does not. The GLA is not a dual stage. It's a dual gauge which does absolutely nothing to prevent EOTD. It just means it has two gauges. 

As for GLA claiming their regs have no EOTD....not sure how they can ensure that or what it is about their regs prevent that from occurring. If you are certain that's what happened...I'd contact them and see what they have to say considering they claim their single stage regulators prevent EOTD.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

@Nubster is right: this is NOT a dual STAGE regulator. It's a SINGLE stage. However, GLA seems to imply that they guarantee against EOT dumps. You may want to contact them to see if they can address the problem. From what I've heard, they are very accommodating with customer service. I think that they would want to hear about your problem.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your fish.

Can you give more details what happened? Just because the bubble count was going at a very fast rate does not mean it was EOTD. Other members have complained that the needle valve on that regulator as not been holding a consistent count.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> Sorry to hear about your fish.
> 
> Can you give more details what happened? Just because the bubble count was going at a very fast rate does not mean it was EOTD. Other members have complained that the needle valve on that regulator as not been holding a consistent count.


Was wondering the same thing. What makes you think it was EOTD? 

Any chance someone bumped the needle valve? Or it drifted enough to gas the fish? Not saying it isn't EOTD, but from what you described, would not be the first thing would I suspect.

And however it happened, sorry to see the loss of fish. If you purchase more expensive fish, you might want to consider a pH controller. I use one as a fail safe against gassing my tank of Rainbows. Peace of mind is worth the cost to me.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

An EOTD would be the first thing I would suspect - IF - the tank is empty or near empty. Can you determine what state the tank is in? Is it very low? Check the high pressure gauge to see if it is where it should be (750-850 psi - depends upon ambient temp).


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## Joshism (Nov 26, 2015)

Sorry for your loss. Maybe the kids or someone thought you needed more oxygen and cranked it up?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Deanna said:


> An EOTD would be the first thing I would suspect - IF - the tank is empty or near empty. Can you determine what state the tank is in? Is it very low? Check the high pressure gauge to see if it is where it should be (750-850 psi - depends upon ambient temp).


I don't think that would really prove anything. The tank could have emptied from just the needle valve not holding or being moved accidently.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> I don't think that would really prove anything. The tank could have emptied from just the needle valve not holding or being moved accidently.


The problem is finding the problem. The coincidence of an unexpectedly empty tank and dead fish would indicate an EOTD if the needle valve had been functioning properly at last check (bubble count). With single stage, you are highly dependent upon a needle valve so, I assume that GLA is using a high quality one.

As you know, if you don't follow correct start-up procedure when replacing an empty tank, you can damage the needle valve and that is the only thing I can think of that may have caused a needle valve problem in a high quality needle valve. I think it would be best for the OP to talk this through with GLA.

The OP should note that an EOTD is not a sudden emptying of the tank, like an explosion. It's a gradually increasing release of CO2 that can kill fairly quickly, especially if you are on the border of 35-45 ppm of CO2 in your tank. If noticed in time, you can keep up with it by adjusting the needle valve frequently to compensate. However, I have a dual stage, so I have never personally experienced an EOTD.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

What is the telltale sign that the cylinder is running out of CO2? The high pressure gauge has poor resolution to read imminent emptying. The guy that filled up my cylinder told me CO2 filling is measured by weight, not by pressure as it fluctuates with temperature. Will it be easier to read by weighing the cyclinder?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Deanna said:


> The problem is finding the problem. The coincidence of an unexpectedly empty tank and dead fish would indicate an EOTD if the needle valve had been functioning properly at last check (bubble count). With single stage, you are highly dependent upon a needle valve so, I assume that GLA is using a high quality one.


A needle valve being accidently hit or just not holding occurs much more than any EOTD. EOTD wouldn't be the first thing, but the last thing to think of based on how often these things actually occur. Others have posted on TPT that the Gro 1 has not been holding the count. 

We just don't know enough to call it EOTD which it look like everyone was doing initially based on OPs limited description of what happened and experience with Co2.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Tiger15 said:


> What is the telltale sign that the cylinder is running out of CO2? The high pressure gauge has poor resolution to read imminent emptying. The guy that filled up my cylinder told me CO2 filling is measured by weight, not by pressure as it fluctuates with temperature. Will it be easier to read by weighing the cyclinder?


True, but after the initial trip home and given that your cylinder would be sitting in your fairly temperature controlled house which most of us probably prefer a comfortable 70ish, in most situations, the high pressure gauge will stay steady between 800-900 until it's close to empty. If you at least monitor it at least weekly, you'll see it start a pretty sudden drop to 600 and below when emptying is "imminent". At my usage, on a 5lb cylinder, I usually get roughly 2 weeks out of that period. Maybe 3 if I run it all the way to empty. If I really valued piece of mind, since the normal usage duration of a filled tank for me is almost 5 months, I'd just not care for that extra 2 weeks. 

See graph in this post for pressure vs %full vs temperature.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/384633-full-5lb-co2-weight.html#post3837889

I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer glancing at the gauge every week vs taking it out of its mount and putting it on a scale or putting a scale underneath it permanently.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ipkiss said:


> ...
> I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer glancing at the gauge every week vs taking it out of its mount and putting it on a scale or putting a scale underneath it permanently.


I don't disagree, but just saying after being in this hobby a long time, with multiple co2 setups that just doesn't happen for me. Life gets in the way. I let every single one of my co2 setups run to empty,


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> I don't disagree, but just saying after being in this hobby a long time, with multiple co2 setups that just doesn't happen for me. Life gets in the way. * I let every single one of my co2 setups run to empty*,


It would be interesting to know at what saturation level you inject co2 at ?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I haven't seen the statistics about frequencies of EOTD, needle valves being hit or simply not holding so, I can't assign the probabilities to any of those occurrences that others can. Without being shown those statistics, it makes sense to look at each possibility. 

Regarding the possibilities of a needle valve not holding (you'd have to refill the tank then watch the bubble rate to see if it holds or not) or an EOTD, I'd take those to GLA and ask them to help you. Regarding the needle valve being hit, well ...did you hit it? If you fill it, and the bubble rate holds, then the probabilities of an EOTD or having hit the needle valve go up.

Weighing it is a good way to determine how close to the end you are and cheap postal scales are available on the likes of Amazon, but you'd still have to look at a scale regularly, just like regularly checking the pressure gauge, and the pressure gauge will remain steady (once it settles in to the ambient temperature) until the tank nears empty. Good graph @ipkiss.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

EOTD or "*unwanted increase in outlet pressure, sometime catastrophic*" won't occur until main gauge starts dropping..


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

I have the Milwaukee regulator and 20 lb tank. The high pressure gauge scaled up to 3500 psi, but my fully filled tank read only 400+ psi, so it’s at the bottom 1/8 from empty. I called the guy and questioned if he underfilled my tank as I read that people are getting 800 to 1000 psi in full tank. He told me to disregard pressure as filling is measured by weight. The pressure stays about the same since I set it up 4 months ago with no movement except for probable temperature fluctuation. So I wonder if my pressure gauge is working or the resolution is too poor of any value.

Do I expect the pressure to suddenly dive, rather than gradually drop near imminent emptiness? Is there a way to estimate how long the cylinder will last. I’m injecting a steady stream of bubbles, perhaps 3 to 4 bps. My bubble counter has dried out long time ago. So I just estimate bps by counting larger bubbles coming out of my CO2 reactor. I am concerned of running out of CO2 when I am on vacation, or worse, an EOTD disaster.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> I have the Milwaukee regulator and 20 lb tank. The high pressure gauge scaled up to 3500 psi, but my fully filled tank read only 400+ psi, so it’s at the bottom 1/8 from empty. I called the guy and questioned if he underfilled my tank as I read that people are getting 800 to 1000 psi in full tank. He told me to disregard pressure as filling is measured by weight. The pressure stays about the same since I set it up 4 months ago with no movement except for probable temperature fluctuation. So I wonder if my pressure gauge is working or the resolution is too poor of any value.
> 
> Do I expect the pressure to suddenly dive, rather than gradually drop near imminent emptiness? Is there a way to estimate how long the cylinder will last. I’m injecting a steady stream of bubbles, perhaps 3 to 4 bps. My bubble counter has dried out long time ago. So I just estimate bps by counting larger bubbles coming out of my CO2 reactor. I am concerned of running out of CO2 when I am on vacation, or worse, an EOTD disaster.


If I were betting, I'd say that your 'refill guy' is filling the tank correctly and that your pressure gauge is the problem (they can be replaced) or you have a leak in that area. Have you performed a leak test (soapy water) on your entire system? He is right, from his perspective about weight, not pressure. From your perspective, both are useful and I would rely more on pressure attributes. You should be able to easily see the pressure. Mine normalizes to about 750 because it's sitting in a 60 degree +/-5 basement.

The drop, if it happens, can be sudden (days - maybe hours) or not. I don't think that counting bubbles as they come out of the reactor is a good way to determine stability of the needle valve. Any reason you can't refill the bubble counter?

One poster mentioned CO2 saturation, which is a good point. If your CO2 is high, as many of us like it to be, any drift higher can cross the death zone pretty easily. One poster suggested a pH controller that shuts the CO2 off if CO2 exceeds a certain limit, but those can be as expensive as the CO2 setup. Nothing will alert you to running out of CO2 (I do it all the time). I use a drop checker as the 'canary in the mine' to let me know if any variance is occurring and keep a paintball canister as backup to my 20 lb tank. I also have the CO2 off at night, for reasons other than fish safety, but doing so also prevents any morning surprises.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Tiger15 said:


> I have the Milwaukee regulator and 20 lb tank. The high pressure gauge scaled up to 3500 psi, but my fully filled tank read only 400+ psi, so it’s at the bottom 1/8 from empty. I called the guy and questioned if he underfilled my tank as I read that people are getting 800 to 1000 psi in full tank. He told me to disregard pressure as filling is measured by weight. The pressure stays about the same since I set it up 4 months ago with no movement except for probable temperature fluctuation. So I wonder if my pressure gauge is working or the resolution is too poor of any value.
> 
> Do I expect the pressure to suddenly dive, rather than gradually drop near imminent emptiness? Is there a way to estimate how long the cylinder will last. I’m injecting a steady stream of bubbles, perhaps 3 to 4 bps. My bubble counter has dried out long time ago. So I just estimate bps by counting larger bubbles coming out of my CO2 reactor. I am concerned of running out of CO2 when I am on vacation, or worse, an EOTD disaster.


What he says about filling by weight is correct. But the pressure in the tank should be 800-1000 psi when full and the entire time until you are out. Sounds like your gauge is possibly defective. If I were you...I'd consider replacing the gauge (contact GLA and let them know, perhaps they will send a new one or have you send the whole regulator in to be checked/repaired, it has a 3 year warranty, how long have you had it?), fill your bubble counter so you don't have to guess, and possibly look at getting a pH controller if you are really concerned about this happening again. You can also weigh your tank filled and if you go on vacation weigh it a day or two prior and get an idea how much CO2 is in the tank so you can refill if needed before going out of town. Sounds like you know at the current bubble count...whatever that might actually be...you can expect 4 months out of a tank. But that's a guess since it's unknown for sure if the tank was filled completely last time. Weigh the tank empty. Weigh it full. Should be 20# heavier if it's been completely filled.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> Do I expect the pressure to suddenly dive, rather than gradually drop near imminent emptiness? Is there a way to estimate how long the cylinder will last.


Only way to know that is if you watch one fill to the end..
Delivery rate dependent..
I do suspect the gauge is bad..

There is a tare weight stamped on the tank. 
When you weigh it full and subtract that weight you should get 20# difference..

Rough estimate for a 20# steel tank is 30 lbs empty.. 50lbs full (20 lbs. CO2)

your fill guy might ignore the tare weight and just vent it, weigh it and then fill..

20# aluminum tank.. 24 lbs empty..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

charlie 1 said:


> It would be interesting to know at what saturation level you inject co2 at ?


All my display type tanks have a high-light component to I always run good co2 saturation with heavy dosing. 30-40 I'd estimate. 

I also have a single-GAUGE mini regulator for eight years that doesn't have a high pressure gauge so you couldn't see anything dropping. So it always runs to empty.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> All my display type tanks have a high-light component to I always run good co2 saturation with heavy dosing. 30-40 I'd estimate.
> 
> I also have a single-GAUGE mini regulator for eight years that doesn't have a high pressure gauge so you couldn't see anything dropping. So it always runs to empty.


In my personal experience running high co2 saturation with Milwaukee single stage regulators ( 15 + years ago), i have lost quite a bit of fish when the bottle pressure dropped below 400 PSI, Attach whatever name (EOTD) or other you want to it , i will never run single stage regulators to bottle empty.


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## Warbler (Sep 30, 2013)

Hi everybody sorry for not replying earlier.

I don't believe the needle valve was touched. I have had some limited issues with the needle valve on the GRO-1 being not as stable-but for me it was usually things like going from 1 bps to 2 bps or something like that (which I figured was kind of normal for something to fluctuate a little like that depending on working pressure, but apparently not). It was quite a lot. I only have one kid in the house, my 8 year old sister, but she definitely knows better than to touch anything down there as she has learned before. Furthermore it's in a cabinet, so nothing can just bump it. I only ever touch the needle valve when I have the tank refilled/I notice the bubble count is a little off. The only other things in the cabinet are my ferts, but this week I actually hadn't touched the fertilisers at all since I was very busy. 

I've also *always* followed the procedure that GLA gave me for taking the tank on and off (I still have the paper directions and go over them step by step). I mean, I suppose there's always a chance I did something wrong with it? But every other time it's never been an issue. 

I never would have suspected a loose needle valve, maybe that's it...also kind of disappointing to hear that it's only dual regulator versus dual stage. I thought I did my due diligence when researching because this was exactly what I wanted to prevent lol. It's too expensive for me to sell the reg and buy an actual dual stage now, maybe I'll go with the pH controller Greggz mentioned. I'm a comp sci student so I bet I could even get it hooked up to a website and be able to view it remotely.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

charlie 1 said:


> In my personal experience running high co2 saturation with Milwaukee single stage regulators ( 15 + years ago), i have lost quite a bit of fish when the bottle pressure dropped below 400 PSI, Attach whatever name (EOTD) or other you want to it , i will never run single stage regulators to bottle empty.


It's completely unrealistic to think the average person using co2 is checking their pressure before it empties. It just doesn't happen. Milwaukee still sells this regulator as well as all major co2 equipment vendors selling single stage. There user base dwarfs the use of dual-stage. So after all these years the jig would be up.

You might have just had a bad regulator. It doesn't make it reflective of the huge base that uses single stage.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Warbler said:


> It's too expensive for me to sell the reg and buy an actual dual stage now,


Have you contacted GLA yet to see what their take on the situation is?

You could always get a bare dual stage from ebay for <$100 and strip the parts off the GLA and use them on the new reg. But...if you have a janky needle valve on the GLA then you could still run into issues no matter how nice of a regulator you have. A pH controller would be about the only way to prevent this from happening again using your current setup. You could always upgrade the needle valve (Fabco NV-55-18) for around $45. That would eliminate that as a possible culprit especially considering that the GLA one seems to be having mixed results...even you saying you've had issues with the one you have.


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## Warbler (Sep 30, 2013)

Thanks for the advice. Have not contacted GLA as of yet but I'm writing something up now. I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to modify my reg and still keep my warranty intact, so I'll figure that out. Especially now looking at pH controllers and they're a lot pricier than I thought haha.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Warbler said:


> ... I have had some limited issues with the needle valve on the GRO-1 being not as stable-but for me *it was usually things like going from 1 bps to 2 bps or something like that *(which I figured was kind of normal for something to fluctuate a little like that depending on working pressure, but apparently not). It was quite a lot...


From the horse’s mouth this is the biggest indicator that it wasn't EOTD. As has been discussed in other threads the needle valve on the GRO 1 has been drifting and if it went from 1 bps to 2 bps it could have easily gone much further and gassed his fish.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> From the horse’s mouth this is the biggest indicator that it wasn't EOTD. As has been discussed in other threads the needle valve on the GRO 1 has been drifting and if it went from 1 bps to 2 bps it could have easily gone much further and gassed his fish.



Sooo.. EOTD never happens in your mind?



> Every regulator company in the business from concoa to matheson trigas, to victor all state that the droop effect is a real issue with single stage regulators. The question is how much does this affect the delivery accuracy into our tanks? Some say it's not even an issue with single stage units. Maybe for hypercritical lab applications it's more apparent.
> 
> I'd like to see a study focus on the decay characteristics of popular aquarium brand single stage regulators as the tank pressure drops.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Sooo.. EOTD never happens in your mind?


You really have a nasty habit of quoting thinks that people never say. I never said never, just that it's wayyyy down on the list. You really need to stop doing this. 

The OP stated that his NV doesn't hold. Accept it, this was not EOTD. Stop trying to prove other wise with quotes from the Internet and diagrams of what's possible. We all know it's possible it's just not something to be that concerned with and obsessed over as you are.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> The OP stated that his NV doesn't hold. Accept it, this was not EOTD. Stop trying to prove other wise with quotes from the Internet and diagrams of what's possible. We all know it's possible it's just not something to be that concerned with and obsessed over as you are.


I'm not so sure we can say that the needle valve is the problem, yet. He seemed to imply that his nominal 1-2 bps variation was all the time, not just before the killing of his fish. Something happened recently that was out of the ordinary for him and he ordinarily saw 1-2 bps variations.

I suggest that we wait until he discusses this with GLA before deciding what the problem is/was.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

What’s the difference between a dual stage and dual gauge regulator. My Milwalki has two gauges, a big knob that steps down the pressure, and a needle valve that adjust the second pressure gauge and bps rate. There is also a solenoid valve before the needle valve that turns on and off with a timer. The bps is never steady, always drift slightly with temperature fluctuation and warm up period. Do I have the dual gauge? Is mine vulnerable to EOTD?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tiger15 said:


> Do I expect the pressure to suddenly dive, rather than gradually drop near imminent emptiness? Is there a way to estimate how long the cylinder will last. I’m injecting a steady stream of bubbles, perhaps 3 to 4 bps.


It's hard to say how long it will last.

But for reference, on my 120G, my 10lb tank lasts right about 9 weeks. That's 9 hours a day, at probably closer to something like 10 bubbles per second (think a strong steady stream, about 40cc/min).

So if you are only at 3 or 4 bubbles per second, that 20lb tank might last a VERY long time. Remember to note when you get it filled, so you track the actual usage. Mine runs out almost within a few days of 9 weeks every time. I track all this on a spreadsheet with everything else, so I know to when to be checking and paying attention. 

If I was going to be on vacation when it ran out, I would change it before I left. In a high tech tank running out of CO2 can be a disaster if left for too long.

As to the pressure drop, once it starts dropping, it's already getting near the end. For me, a few weeks left at most.

And back to the OP topic, I don't know if it was EOTD. But if it truly drifted from one bubble to two per second, that is twice as much CO2. If I double my CO2 output, I could wipe out my tank in two hours. 

Hopefully it gets figured out.

And while a good pH controller ain't cheap, it's not much in the scheme of everything else over the long haul.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Tiger15 said:


> What’s the difference between a dual stage and dual gauge regulator. My Milwalki has two gauges, a big knob that steps down the pressure, and a needle valve that adjust the second pressure gauge and bps rate. There is also a solenoid valve before the needle valve that turns on and off with a timer. The bps is never steady, always drift slightly with temperature fluctuation and warm up period. Do I have the dual gauge? Is mine vulnerable to EOTD?







Dual stage...




You can usually tell because the dual stage has a large protrusion on the back side of the regulator. I can't say if all dual stage have this or if some single stage have it as well...but that's a general indicator.










Bump:


Warbler said:


> I'm not sure if I'll be allowed to modify my reg and still keep my warranty intact, so I'll figure that out. Especially now looking at pH controllers and they're a lot pricier than I thought haha.


Probably not...but if the needle valve is junk and if GLA doesn't step up and fix it...you're better off voiding the warranty and at least putting a quality needle valve on the regulator possibly preventing future issues.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Tiger15 said:


> What’s the difference between a dual stage and dual gauge regulator. My Milwalki has two gauges, a big knob that steps down the pressure, and a needle valve that adjust the second pressure gauge and bps rate. There is also a solenoid valve before the needle valve that turns on and off with a timer. The bps is never steady, always drift slightly with temperature fluctuation and warm up period. Do I have the dual gauge? Is mine vulnerable to EOTD?


You have dual guage not dual stage. Is it vulnerable? Who knows. 

I would think if it was a regular issue, you would hear a LOT more about it here. I'm just saying I don't ever see it come up. And I would guess 90% of the people here have single stage systems. Not saying it can't happen, but I'm really doubting if it's even possible that it is common at all.

I've read articles that say it's a myth, and then others that claim it's happened. Maybe someone can chime in who has actually experienced it (Not read about it), or has actual experience in the industry.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> e. I'm just saying I don't ever see it come up.


comes up once a month at least...and if you take all the web sites.. well 
But of course they are all wrong...

I've already gave "parameters" as to why its probably not common..but have a hard time denying it's existence..
Not to mention output pressure rise at EOT is PROVEN physics/mechanics.............

Bump:


houseofcards said:


> You really have a nasty habit of quoting thinks that people never say. I never said never, just that it's wayyyy down on the list. You really need to stop doing this.
> 
> The OP stated that his NV doesn't hold. Accept it, this was not EOTD. Stop trying to prove other wise with quotes from the Internet and diagrams of what's possible. We all know it's possible it's just not something to be that concerned with and obsessed over as you are.


EVERY time someone post it you INSTANTLY say they are mistaken.. Let's just leave it at that ok?
I would BET that you NEVER have any doubt that they are mistaken..
THAT is pretty definitive don't you think?

could be a combination of things.. i.e pressure rise unseating a needle valve.. No matter though..in your mind..they must be wrong.. because it never happened to you.
I ASKED politely for data.. from you or others, to observe your output pressure at EOT..
DATA.. data.. data..

Otherwise we continue to circle the conjecture wagon.....

IF we can get some data on specific models ect doesn't that ADD more knowledge than just blanket statements/criticism?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> comes up once a month at least...and if you take all the web sites.. well
> But of course they are all wrong...
> 
> I've already gave "parameters" as to why its probably not common..but have a hard time denying it's existence..


It comes up like it did in this thread. With newbies who are used to the acronym being thrown around without any real verification. It's really a silly argument, because with the wide use base for single-stage vs dual stage, the forum would be over-loaded. It reminds me of UFO sightings. Why is the picture always blurry?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> comes up once a month at least...and if you take all the web sites.. well
> But of course they are all wrong...
> 
> I've already gave "parameters" as to why its probably not common..but have a hard time denying it's existence..


Jeff not trying to argue with you at all. I honestly don't know, am not an expert on the matter, and never said they are all wrong.

I'm just saying I spend a lot of time on THIS site, and I rarely recall any conversation about it. I would guess on this site there is someone running out of CO2 every day or two. Seems if it was common, it would be a hot topic around here. CAN it happen? I don't know. I've read pretty solid articles on both sides.

Once again, it would be interesting to hear from someone who is actually in the industry. For me it's pure speculation, as I imagine it is for everyone commenting.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

The best way to eliminate EOTD, if that’s what’s happened and you’re concerned about it, is just keep an eye on your tank pressure. When you start seeing it go down, just go get the tank refilled and not try and squeeze every last ounce out of it. 

I believe I read that @burr740 is having a similar issue on his GLA reg in regards to inconsistent bubble count. If it’s still under warranty, definitely see what GLA says and go from there.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Jeff not trying to argue with you at all. I honestly don't know, am not an expert on the matter, and never said they are all wrong.
> 
> I'm just saying I spend a lot of time on THIS site, and I rarely recall any conversation about it. I would guess on this site there is someone running out of CO2 every day or two. Seems if it was common, it would be a hot topic around here. CAN it happen? I don't know. I've read pretty solid articles on both sides.
> 
> Once again, it would be interesting to hear from someone who is actually in the industry. For me it's pure speculation, as I imagine it is for everyone commenting.


"we" did.. Every manuf states pressure will rise at EOT w/ a one stage regulator........WHAT that implies is complicated.
my main point was how much/ which ones.

In a set of variables eliminating one is always beneficial..Using a 2 stage eliminates one.......no more.. no less.

Like how many 2 stage regs killed fish?

A 2 stage is "better suited" for our purposes.. whats "good enough" is a personal choice. Personally that is unarguable..


> One- or Two-Stage Regulators?
> One-stage pressure-reducing regulators are sufficient in most applications where the inlet pressure is relatively constant. While one-stage regulators are more susceptible to a phenomenon known as supply pres-sure effect (SPE) than two-stage regulators, the deter-mining factor resides in the pressure variation of the high-pressure supply. SPE is the ability of a regulator to adjust to changes in the high-pressure supply to the regulator. In applications where the high-pressure supply is subject to large variations, a regulator with a low SPE will provide the most stable low-pressure delivery. Therefore, a one-stage regulator will generally deliver a stable outlet pressure when the high-pressure supply is stable. A high-quality, one-stage regulator will deliver an outlet pressure that may be estimated using the following formula: ΔP (outlet) = ΔP (inlet) x 0.01. In other words, outlet pressure is 1 per-cent of the difference in inlet pressure variability. In Figure 1, inlet pressure varies by 5 bar (40 to 35 bar), so 5 bar x 0.01 equals an outlet pressure variability of 0.05 bar. If the outlet pressure is set for 2 bar, and the inlet pressure rises from 35 to 40 bar, the outlet pressure will drop from 2 to 1.95 bar. The inverse relationship between the high-pressure (inlet) rising and the low-pressure (outlet) drop-ping is typical of one-stage regulators.


SWAGELOK.............
Note: You are going 55 to zero bar roughly..
55 x .01 = 8 psi rise...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> EVERY time someone post it you INSTANTLY say they are mistaken..


There you go again. Embellishing because you think you know what people are thinking. 

This was my first post in the thread.



houseofcards said:


> Sorry to hear about your fish.
> 
> Can you give more details what happened? Just because the bubble count was going at a very fast rate does not mean it was EOTD. Other members have complained that the needle valve on that regulator as not been holding a consistent count.


I asked for more details. I didn't say IT DEFINITELY WASN'T. Where do you see that. His NV isn't holding, that killing fish is insanely more likely than EOTD so of course I will question it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Nlewis said:


> The best way to eliminate EOTD, if that’s what’s happened and you’re concerned about it, is just keep an eye on your tank pressure. When you start seeing it go down, just go get the tank refilled and not try and squeeze every last ounce out of it.
> 
> I believe I read that @burr740 is having a similar issue on his GLA reg in regards to inconsistent bubble count. If it’s still under warranty, definitely see what GLA says and go from there.


Nlewis I am with you there. 

I keep spreadsheets of everything, and I know when to start checking. I never let it run out, not because of EOTD, but because I know what happens in my tank when it does. It ain't pretty.

And as I mentioned, a pH controller is another option to consider if you have a considerable investment in livestock (like I do).


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Nlewis I am with you there.
> 
> I keep spreadsheets of everything, and I know when to start checking. I never let it run out, not because of EOTD, but because I know what happens in my tank when it does. It ain't pretty.
> 
> And as I mentioned, a pH controller is another option to consider if you have a considerable investment in livestock (like I do).


I’m also just not a last minute type of person. In the grand scheme of things, the Co2 it’s self is cheap. My 5# tank last about 8 months before needing a refill and I know when I see tank pressure start dropping I have around 3 weeks before it’s dead.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I agree it's always better to be diligent especially with a lot of stock. I'm just making the point that I don't routinely monitor my co2 tanks. In fact I'm currently using in-tank diffusers in them all and when they stop producing bubbles it's usually the tubing came off or the tank is empty. I usually do a big water change, reduce light cycle a bit and get it filled by the next day. 

I also used to setup planted tanks in residences, businesses and LFS in my spare time as a small business and most customers didn't know anything about co2 so I would go there for maintenance and many times the tank would be empty. Never had EOTD and back then I was volume buying Milwaukee regulators. LOL


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> Like how many 2 stage regs killed fish?


Funny you say that, as I can point you to half a dozen links right now where people claim they did, and I didn't look too hard.

So was that EOTD, or something else? Who knows? I don't. Funny thing you were in one of the threads!

Anyway, I've got no horse in this race, just thought it was an interesting topic. My apologies to you Jeff if you thought I was attacking you in any way, as it was not my intention. I've read many of your posts over time and have seen you make many valuable contributions, especially when it comes to LED lighting.

Truce???:grin2::grin2:

And sorry to the OP for high jacking this thread a bit.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> Funny you say that, as I can point you to half a dozen links right now where people claim they did, and I didn't look too hard.
> 
> So was that EOTD, or something else? Who knows? I don't. Funny thing you were in one of the threads!
> 
> ...


No didn't even consider anything an attack.. 

Got this thing for people ignoring physics.. 

If you meant this thread:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/959553-end-tank-dump-dual-stage-co2-regulator.html

See image.. 










Personal opinion (based on some past history/analysis)
CO2 Art had(has) sh!tty 2 stage regs...They had good ones at one time, currently eh.
Manuf Q/C problems and documented here...
IF it is still an issue is ?????


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Funny, I had an Aquateck for almost two years, used to let it run bone dry and never had an eotd.

My GLA Gro1 on the other hand - single stage but they claim it doent dump at the end - is horrible about it. Soon as the tank pressure starts dropping the working pressure climbs. And the needle valve is junk, extremely irregular from one day to the next. I'll never own another one.

Also have a dual stage CO2 Art thats been pretty solid for a couple of years. Runs consistent and never climbs at the end. Only thing I dont like the smc valves and push connect fittings. Hard to beat for the price though...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> ...
> Got this thing for people ignoring physics.. ;


Physics shouldn't be ignored but there are social-economic realities in life and many times you can't have your cake and eat it too. Do you drive over 45mph, because physics will tell you, your more likely to get injured when you go faster, but for most it's not realistic to drive at a top speed of 45.

Do you drive a car at all? Because your safer flying, but it wouldn't be practical. There are trade-offs like this in everything. From medicine to product development etc. 



jeffkrol said:


> *A 2 stage is "better suited" for our purposes*.. whats "good enough" is a personal choice. Personally that is unarguable..


See you know what the problem is with that. It ignores all social-economic realities. 

There are realities and cost is a big barrier to get into co2. So if everyone thought that you MUST have a dual-stage regulator the amount of people using co2 would be a tiny fraction for what it is and they wouldn't enjoy the success they are having because of the infinitesimally small chance of EOTD and the hobby would suffer big time. Most people don't want to build one either so that would be a barrier as well. 

People have tanks in their homes and they need to fit into certain parameters in terms of cost, etc. The tank isn't in a sterile environment like a laboratory where these things don't come into play and all you could thing about is physics. 

That's not reality for most.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I NEVER EVER said anyone must have a 2 stage regulator.. 
I stated the reasons favoring a 2 stage over anything else..

https://www.swagelok.com/~/media/Di...-To-Manage-Supply-Pressure-Effect-Badger.ashx



> 1. Use of a two stage regulator, A changeover manifold, a 2-stage regulator, or two regulators in series can
> reduce these effects where consistent delivery pressure is
> critical. For example, a gas cylinder where a large differential pressure of supplied tank pressure and precise delivery or outlet pressure is necessary


See you can "gang" 2 1 stages together..........;0
Which would be under $100 in many cases..


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

I got into a very long discussion about this a few years back..
Not gonna get too into it again, but theres nothing you can do with a Single Stage Regulator to prevent it. 
I can run my Dual Stage Harris all the way down to 50psi in the tank before I see any changes (thats cause my working pressure is 50psi so when it gets lower than that i just go swap the tank)
A needle valve won't help because its an orifice not a sprung gate like in the regulator.
There is a reason they use 2 stage for medical gas.

edit: at the end of the day though, co2 is like 15 bucks for 5lbs.. 
By the time the gass pressure drops to 500-600 you probably only have half a lb of co2 in the tank, just go swap it right away if you're worried.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Chlorophile said:


> Single Stage Regulator to prevent it.....A needle valve won't help because its an orifice not a sprung gate like in the regulator.


A pH controller will but that's a pricey option. As far as needle valves...while they won't prevent EOTD (if it exists), a good one will prevent creep which can be just as deadly as EOTD if it's not caught in time. This thread is a possible example of that.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Not going engage in the argument , but i ran several Milwaukees in my early days of pressurized co2, and my experience and opinion is the same , will never run a Milwaukee or other single stage until the tank is empty, further the needle valve drifts.
I will say this though , the customer service is great, they replaced several needle valves and a couple of solenoids at no cost back then.
It`s interesting to note that persons are complaining about the GLA needle valve and suggesting the Fabco NV 55 -18 , LOL
Guess what the GLA Pro needle valve is under that pretty modular Block?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

charlie 1 said:


> It`s interesting to note that persons are complaining about the GLA needle valve and suggesting the Fabco NV 55 -18 , LOL
> Guess what the GLA Pro needle valve is under that pretty modular Block?


Interesting post. In the end, another reason to consider a pH controller.

A little bit of insurance.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> See you know what the problem is with that. It ignores all social-economic realities.
> 
> There are realities and cost is a big barrier to get into co2. So if everyone thought that you MUST have a dual-stage regulator the amount of people using co2 would be a tiny fraction for what it is and they wouldn't enjoy the success they are having because of the infinitesimally small chance of EOTD and the hobby would suffer big time. Most people don't want to build one either so that would be a barrier as well.


There is no "barrier" 
Don't run your bottle dry.. END of story..
Only takes one run through and WAY less work than tank maintenance........
There is JUST a very specific time when one design (arguably apparently) works better than another.......

Why consider it a "barrier" for anything..?

Should I "encourage" people to use every ounce of CO2 and pretend accidents don't happen?
Why would I do that?

Say someone kills a bunch of fish w/ a bottle at full pressure.. Easier to diagnose right?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Greggz said:


> I've read articles that say it's a myth,


Yes


Greggz said:


> and then others that claim it's happened.


Yes



Greggz said:


> Maybe someone can chime in who has actually experienced it (Not read about it), or has actual experience in the industry.


Plenty did..
Even a video that "someone" thought was staged..
https://youtu.be/M08hPs-J3SM

Gave you a training video from the "industry"..
https://youtu.be/Kf3xc1BGYGo
Whole sheets of "stuff".......pro and con
https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/dumping.html



> Just for fun, I decided to see what my $20 needle valve (from M3) would do in a dump situation. I couldn't test it with a massive dump, but I did crank the regulator from it's normal 4psi setting, up to the regulator max of 45psi. The bubble rate probably doubled, from it's normal 2 per second, to about 4 maybe 5 per second. That would probably drop my pH, but I'm not sure how much.





> The first one is an old rebuilt Norgren from many years ago. It is the regulator I normally use and it will dump. I measured the following (P1 is input pressure, P2 is output pressure): Time P1 P2 0 850 15.1 50 575 15.2 60 500 15.2 57 425 15.2 65 350 15.5 69 300 15.6 73 250 15.2 78 200 15.2 82 150 14.8 87 100 14.0 dropping to zero slowly P1 stayed at 100 making me think there is a stop in the gauge that prevents the needle from dropping below 100 (or else the calibration was off, this test was run at about 63F).
> 
> Then I tried a new Cornelius regulator from the high-pressure system I sell: 0 760 15.0 2 740 15.2 4 700 15.3 6 600 16.0 7 fall P2 rose quickly to 22, then dropped almost as fast, diffusor bubbling like crazy. You can pretty clearly see the dump, it is interesting to speculate what would have happened with a full tank of gas available to dump, instead of the few ccs in the stem from the tank shutoff valve to the regulator body.


Guess for people that are worried it's 1:100 or 1:100,000 though that was never my point.


> I also talked to Marco from GLA and he told me that none of their regs have probs with end of tank dump. Direct quote from his email reply to me:
> 
> "...None of our regulators are prone to dumping at all. We have been building co2 regulators for over a decade with no dumping effects. Dumping is usually associated with more toy like co2 regulators..."


CO2 Regulator Advice | AquaScaping World Forum



> Tap-Rite replied: * Received your e-mail inquiring about drift from set pressure from a full CO2 tank to near empty. The Tap-Rite regulator ( 742 ) which you have & are using, will have minimal drift ( less than 2 lbs. ) from full to empty CO2 tank. Other regs. on the market have a much greater drift up to 5 to 7 lbs. * You have the best CO2 regulator available, and should not have any problems with pressure drift. Best Regards, Don Wilson So, this eases my mind a bit about the potential for tank dump. Regardless, I still believe "avoidance"
> (i.e monitor the pressure and refill immediately when the pressure starts to drop) is the safest approach.


NOTE: Not directed "at you".. just had a nice format..

SOME of the problem is semantics.. like global warming...
how the system behaves when the INEVITABLE (for many but "specially designed" 1 stage reg.) pressure rises.."dump" or just nuisance..

Sorry forgot the "math" to estimate it..


> A high-quality, one-stage regulator will deliver an outlet pressure that may be estimated using the following formula: ΔP (outlet) = ΔP (inlet) x 0.01. In other words, outlet pressure is 1 per-cent of the difference in inlet pressure variability. In Figure 1, inlet pressure varies by 5 bar (40 to 35 bar), so 5 bar x 0.01 equals an outlet pressure variability of 0.05 bar.


https://northerncal.swagelok.com/bl...essure-effect-in-pressure-reducing-regulators
https://www.chemicalprocessing.com/articles/2013/resolve-a-regulator-riddle/



> Two-stage regulation. A balanced poppet regulator is suitable for lowering SPE in many applications, especially high-flow ones. For lower-flow and some other applications, using two-stage pressure reduction may provide a good alternative. This method involves installing two single-stage regulators in series or combining the two regulators into one assembly. Each regulator controls pressure variation to some degree; together, they bring outlet pressure very close to the target.
> 
> To calculate the variability of outlet pressure for a two-stage regulator setup, the inlet pressure difference is multiplied by the SPE of each regulator:
> 
> ...


What DO people need?


----------



## Warbler (Sep 30, 2013)

Oh boy. Looks like I kind of started a lot of arguments, sorry guys. I've contacted GLA and we're working together towards trying to figure out where to go from here. Thankfully their customer service is very responsive!

As to whether it's EOTD or not, I don't think I care anymore haha. I just want this to not happen again. Seems whether EOTD exists or it was a faulty needle or a a gaggle of Martians broke it, the easiest (and cheapest!) thing will just be to keep an eye on the pressure gauge and prevent it from going to the red. Actually, even if the needle valve does turn out to be faulty and GLA can't fix it, that's probably the route I'll end up taking. I'm not mechanically inclined and would probably end up destroying it, and as a college student I try and keep a tight budget, and replacing regulators isn't in that haha. Also this is besides the topic but I'm a she.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Ugh... had a 10 pager on this already years ago with Bettatail and a few other custom regulator guys on the site.. We already came to a beautiful conclusion so its a shame to have to rehash the misconceptions

Everyone trying to come up with their own terminology. 

Creep, tank dump... 
its irrelevant. 

The needle valve is a controlled orifice, it has no spring actuation and therefor follows basic laws of physics. 

flow through an orifice follows Bernoulli's equation laws
When a hole has a constant diameter only pressure can alter flow rate. 

Needle valve creep is a misnomer because it implies a fault in the needle valve!
The needle valve is unsprung, there is a very SMALL amoung of slop in the threads, but it is not even a fraction of a turn, it cannot alter anything. Its opening remains the same size, and will only alter flow as the pressure from the Regulator fluctuates!!

When the co2 tank pressure decreases, the amount of pressure on the diaphragm is lessened, and the diaphragm opens more. 
This allows for a larger opening, potentially countering the decrease in tank pressure. 
In a perfect world that would be enough, and it may scale well when we are going from 900psi to 800psi to 700psi... but if you intend to run your tank down to 100psi as I do you will see issues. 

The springs can rarely be perfectly linear, meaning that a spring supporting a 1 square inch diaphragm would have to, for example, have 10mm of travel and would have to take exactly 100 more lbs of pressure to depress the spring 1mm.

It is not easy to make a perfectly linear spring like that, especially at a small size, especially at any given temperature. 
Not to mention in many cases the regulators werent designed to do so in the first place!


Theres not many applications where a single stage reg needs to be precise in the very last few moments of gas delivery.. welders especially will go through that volume so quick that it's easier to just swap tanks.. they are probably alread running 20lb tanks at a minimum. 

A drop in pressure on the tank side will always make the diaphragm more open as its pressure is what keeps the diaphragm shut


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I'm curious to see what the manufacturer will do to resolve this. I always thought their guarantee was kind of meaningless. They guarantee no EOTD. What does that mean? They replace faulty equipment? Reimburse for your $500 worth of fish? And how do you prove EOTD after the fact?
I've had an EOTD with a cheap regulator. My fauna survived. I have no doubt that's what it was. There is no way I could ever prove it. It's a big part of the reason for the argument of it even being a real thing.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Kubla said:


> I'm curious to see what the manufacturer will do to resolve this. I always thought their guarantee was kind of meaningless. They guarantee no EOTD. What does that mean? They replace faulty equipment? Reimburse for your $500 worth of fish? And how do you prove EOTD after the fact?


Yes, it will be interesting to hear from the OP on resolution. GLA doesn't "guarantee" against EOTD, they simply state: "No end-of-tank dumps." I think this will be more a matter of whether or not any part of the product is defective/broken.

Like so many have commented upon here, and elsewhere, where does a drift out of the norm, as a tank approaches empty, become an EOTD? Maybe there truly is no such thing as an EOTD, if it hasn't been defined.


----------



## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

Deanna said:


> Yes, it will be interesting to hear from the OP on resolution. GLA doesn't "guarantee" against EOTD, they simply state: "No end-of-tank dumps." I think this will be more a matter of whether or not any part of the product is defective/broken.
> 
> *Like so many have commented upon here, and elsewhere, where does a drift out of the norm, as a tank approaches empty, become an EOTD? Maybe there truly is no such thing as an EOTD, if it hasn't been defined*.


In my opinion, It`s all semantics as was stated by others.
The fact is as tank pressure decreases, single stage regulators become increasingly difficult to maintain a constant output pressure which can lead to a higher delivery of CO2 to your diffuser/reactor or other means of dissolving the gas into the water column, in turn this can cause a rapid decrease in PH, the effects will be dependent on several factors such as Kh and level of saturation among others - play/coin whatever name you want to call it , the possibility is real.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

If you have ever been on a homebrew forum you'll see hundreds of posts complaining their co2 keg pressure keeps climbing.
Those guys run til the co2 is dry on a regular basis and run into issues on a regular basis with pressure creep as they call it.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

One could always add an additional regulator in series.:grin2:
It is way cheaper than a pH controller!:grin2:
As in item #1 in this pic.
Notice item #2 I am trying for an EOTD this eve, but it may take a few more days.
With all the joy this thread has brought, now I've got to wait for it!>


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Maryland Guppy said:


> One could always add an additional regulator in series.:grin2:


Really.. Only pointed that out at least twice in this thread:



> Two-stage regulation. A balanced poppet regulator is suitable for lowering SPE in many applications, especially high-flow ones. For lower-flow and some other applications, using two-stage pressure reduction may provide a good alternative. This method involves installing two single-stage regulators in series or combining the two regulators into one assembly. Each regulator controls pressure variation to some degree; together, they bring outlet pressure very close to the target.





> See you can "gang" 2 1 stages together..........;0
> Which would be under $100 in many cases..


Btw you don't have to wait, just close the tank valve........


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> Really.. Only pointed that out at least twice in this thread:


Yes, I caught it. Been doing it for years!
I thought a graphic representation would help others, you know pictures.:grin2:

I can only watch these topics go on for so long until I feel some humor/sarcasm should be rendered.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> ...I am trying for an EOTD this eve, but it may take a few more days.
> With all the joy this thread has brought, now I've got to wait for it!>


I'm rooting for you Maryland, but don't close the tank valve. Let the EOTD happen as it does every 2 minutes across the globe. 

Good luck!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I can only watch these topics go on for so long until I feel some humor/sarcasm should be rendered.


Just be sure to put on a helmet and flak jacket before you do.........can get dangerous down here in the trenches!

And sadly humor eludes some here......once in a while just gotta remind everyone we are just some folks trying to grow plants.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Just be sure to put on a helmet and flak jacket before you do.........can get dangerous down here in the trenches!
> 
> And sadly humor eludes some here......once in a while just gotta remind everyone we are just some folks trying to grow plants.


EOTD is serious business!! Second only to the dreaded "micro tox"


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

burr740 said:


> EOTD is serious business!! Second only to the dreaded "micro tox"


Yes it is and the lack of a sub-forum for it still boggles my mind even today.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

burr740 said:


> EOTD is serious business!! Second only to the dreaded "micro tox"


Sadly all have forgotten the WC threads.
There are 3 top runners now-a-days!>
I don't change much water, maybe that will trigger something!:grin2:

EOTD is only @ 400PSI after this eve, this could take a week.
BYA I'll report about it though!


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Not sure about what you are trying to accomplish. You effectively have a 2 stage regulator..
Your first one will rise in pressure on the outlet as your second one will compensate by dropping in pressure..


> Remember that SPE is an inverse relationship. As a gas cylinder empties and inlet pressure decreases, the first-stage regulator will encounter an increase in outlet pressure. That increase will result in a subsequent decrease on the outlet side of the second-stage regulator. However, because the first-stage regulator experiences the majority of SPE, the relative pressure decrease after the second-stage regulator is minimal.
> Net result is a relatively stable output till tank is empty..


Are you saying you removed #1?.. otherwise the whole "experiment " is mostly pointless ..except to watch #2 output pressure rise. 



> Tap-Rite replied: Received your e-mail inquiring about drift from set pressure from a full CO2 tank to near empty. The Tap-Rite regulator ( 742 ) which you have & are using, will have minimal drift ( less than 2 lbs. ) from full to empty CO2 tank. Other regs. on the market have a much greater drift up to 5 to 7 lbs. You have the best CO2 regulator available, and should not have any problems with pressure drift. Best Regards, Don Wilson


how peoples "system" reacts to the increase in outlet pressure (normal one stage) is variable..
To quote myself:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1219090-co2-regulator-choose-2.html


> most EOTD seems to come from people running CO2 to barely sub-lethal quantities..A minor change in output can push the tank into lethal ranges.
> How important it is to you.. well personal choice..
> 
> Besides my main point was one could piece together a 2 stage for AS MUCH as most commercial "premium" units...
> ...


----------



## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Running 2 single stage regulators is really not a solution. 
I want you all to realize the precision in any regulator, single or dual, comes from how well the linearity of the spring and the flow through a semi-controlled orifice is balanced!
The spring can have a well tuned spring rate, and that can open an orifice and the orifice may be shaped parallel or in a unique way where spring pressure is compensated by the decreased orifice or whatever, there are many many combinations that can be satisfactory. 
You can easily have a non linear spring and then use a non linear orifice where the opening is exponential, or the other way around. 
There are certainly single stage regulators which can maintain some semblance of pressure consistency, but in general a 2 stage is already designed to be more accurate in one stage and then by adding a second is more stable. 
There is no comparison, however competency is possible.

Bump: 2 crap regulators are still crap

edit: as jeff krol just mentioned, the important factor is WHO is running their co2 to empty. 
Like I mentioned before, home brew folks do this ALL the time because theres no point in waste, and they routinely report issues with pressure creep. 
I have a harris dual stage reg and I can watch tank pressure go from 900 to 50 psi with NO deviation in working pressure until tank pressure goes below 50 at which point working pressure follows. 
the 900-50 process is close to 3 weeks of co2. 

When I had a single stage reg I would frequently change my tank at the 600-700 PSI range out of fear, not knowing I hate a few weeks to go.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Chlorophile said:


> ...
> When I had a single stage reg I would frequently change my tank at the 600-700 PSI range out of fear, not knowing I hate a few weeks to go.


It's actually quite liberating when you just let it go to the end. Similar to when I stopped testing and measuring fert dosing precisely. I have simplified things plenty to stay in the hobby this long. In fact I'm still using a single GAUGE regulator that doesn't even indicate high pressure.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Nubster said:


> What he says about filling by weight is correct. But the pressure in the tank should be 800-1000 psi when full and the entire time until you are out. Sounds like your gauge is possibly defective. If I were you...I'd consider replacing the gauge (contact GLA and let them know, perhaps they will send a new one or have you send the whole regulator in to be checked/repaired, it has a 3 year warranty, how long have you had it?), fill your bubble counter so you don't have to guess, and possibly look at getting a pH controller if you are really concerned about this happening again. You can also weigh your tank filled and if you go on vacation weigh it a day or two prior and get an idea how much CO2 is in the tank so you can refill if needed before going out of town. Sounds like you know at the current bubble count...whatever that might actually be...you can expect 4 months out of a tank. But that's a guess since it's unknown for sure if the tank was filled completely last time. Weigh the tank empty. Weigh it full. Should be 20# heavier if it's been completely filled.


Yes, my gauges are defective. I called Milwaukee, and they are very gracious and will send me replacement gauges right away. I set up my 20 lb tank and Milwaukee regulator 5 months ago, and haven’t yet experienced EOTD. It lasts so long because I started out cautiously at 1/2 bps, then 1bps, and only lately up to 3 bps. The bps is only guessing by counting and proportioning from the CO2 reactor because the bubble counter has dried up and I don’t want to unhook the counter to refill. I now placed the cylinder on a scale. The tare weight on the cylinder is marked 13.5 lb, and the current weight is 20 lb, so it means I still have 6.5 lb or estimated 2 months to go.

Even at 3 to 4 bps, I cannot bring down the pH below 7, starting at 7.6 and kH 5, and I attribute it to strong buffering dolomite substrate. May be I shouldn’t worry about EOTD at all as my saturated CO2 is probably only 15 ppm, with substantial margin of safety.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Chlorophile said:


> Bump: 2 crap regulators are still crap


Had to bump this.. too funny....



> I set up my 20 lb tank


hmmm... tank size may be a factor.. When "the problem" area occurs, no liquid, all gas, the pressure drop over time between a small tank and large tank (same delivery rate) will be much longer.. any upward pressure creep will be much more gradual.. 

Guess that mil. vid the person did w/ shutting off the tank shows that..

So you have 
1)type of regulator (quality and style)
2)Size of CO2 tank
3)Delivery rate
4)CO2 aquarium concentration
5)Needle valve

all add or subtract to any possible negative effects of an outlet pressure increase....


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Here' my 13 year old Milwaukee Regulator. She's a real cream. Been running it down to bone dry from Day 1. Its not for sale just in case anyone is curious LOL


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

houseofcards said:


> Here' my 13 year old Milwaukee Regulator. She's a real cream. Been running it down to bone dry from Day 1. Its not for sale just in case anyone is curious LOL


I'll see your Milwaukee and raise you this jewel  











Going on 3 years with various backroom tanks. Paid less than 40 bucks from CO2art, non-adjustable working pressure set at 3.5 BAR (45-50 psi)

Its been on 2.5, 5, and 10 lb tanks at one point or another. I let it run bone dry all the time and it's never had an eotd. I'd gladly trade my GLA for another one just like it!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

burr740 said:


> I'll see your Milwaukee and raise you this jewel
> 
> Going on 3 years with various backroom tanks. Paid less than 40 bucks from CO2art, non-adjustable working pressure set at 3.5 BAR (45-50 psi)
> 
> Its been on 2.5, 5, and 10 lb tanks at one point or another. I let it run bone dry all the time and it's never had an eotd. I'd gladly trade my GLA for another one just like it!


Wanna play rough, OK, I'll match you with this non-adjustable azoo mini going on at least 5 years. Currently on my 3.5 Mini S. 

Another Reg in the Bone Dry Gang LOL


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

houseofcards said:


> Here' my 13 year old Milwaukee Regulator. She's a real cream. Been running it down to bone dry from Day 1. Its not for sale just in case anyone is curious LOL


Now you know the "old" stuff works way better than the new crap ;-)


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Can't argue physics.. 2 stage is still better for our use... 

do you need that "better"? Personal choice.

do you need a tank?, CO2? LED's?



> I think EOTD only happens on large tanks. I've two exactly the same regulators, one on a 20L and one on my 400L. With over 10 times the bubble count EOTD on my 400L happens in 1 day. On the 20L in two weeks. Enough time to notice CO2 gets higher and adjust on time.
> 
> EOTD isn't a real problem if you have a small tank and a little bit of spare room (no yellow dropchecker). When CO2 is already maxed out and a large tank, it happens more often.





> Hi Brandon,
> I believe your assumption that flow volume will increase is correct. I hesitate to say that it will be exactly proportional but it should be close. The needle valve only controls flow, more pressure at a particular setting means more flow.
> 
> Thanks for using Ideal Valves.
> ...


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> *Can't argue physics*.. 2 stage is still better for our use...
> 
> do you need that "better"? Personal choice.
> 
> do you need a tank?, CO2? LED's?


You mean like this :wink2:


https://youtu.be/Kf3xc1BGYGo
https://youtu.be/UfaucxS5rIc
Maybe this guy is dreaming :wink2:


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea gets fun............



> When is a two-stage regulator required?
> 
> Applications where the delivery pressure rise from cylinder pressure decay cannot be tolerated.
> Situations where proper pressure is critical and the cylinders in use are in a remote or difficult to monitor location.
> Typically are not required when using gases from low pressure (<500 PSIG) sources





> Dual-stage regulators perform the same function as single-stage regulators; however, delivery pressure holds constant as cylinder pressure declines. Heightened accuracy in pressure control is maintained because the reduction of pressure is achieved in two steps. Dual-staged regulators are recommended for applications that require a constant outlet pressure for the life of a gas cylinder.





> Single stage regulators reduce pressure in one step as gas is consumed. Dual stage regulators are actually two regulators housed in one body. The first regulator (first stage) is non-adjustable and reduces in-coming pressure to an intermediate setting (typically 250 to 300 psig). The second stage is adjustable and reduces intermediate pressure to final desired delivery pressure. Because the second stage sees only relatively minor inlet pressure changes from the first stage, dual stage regulators maintain steady delivery pressure and do not require periodic adjustment. They are well suited for applications where constant delivery pressure is essential.





> Two-stage regulators achieve accurate pressure control through two stages of pressure reduction. They are therefore ideal in situations where there will be significant inlet pressure variation during the period of use, and where very stable outlet pressures are required.





> These two-stage regulators are specifically designed for low-flow, non-corrosive gas applications where precise delivery pressure is critical. They feature a brass piston sensor in the first stage, a stainless steel diaphragm in the second stage and a preset safety relief


What do "they" know...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Partys over. Here come the quotes and the technical references of what could happen.

My Milwaukee regulator has been running continuously since George Bush was President and always to empty. Guess I got physics number. 



jeffkrol said:


> Can't argue physics.. 2 stage is still better for our use...
> 
> do you need that "better"? Personal choice.
> 
> do you need a tank?, CO2? LED's?


Not sure what you mean by this are you comparing having a tank to not having tank to a single vs dual stage?
or having co2 vs not having co2?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

houseofcards said:


> *Partys over. Here come the quotes and the technical references of what could happen.*
> My Milwaukee regulator has been running continuously since George Bush was President and always to empty. Guess I got physics number.
> 
> 
> ...


Seriously !!, that`s all you can provide to disprove factual links?
Oh well , i forgot this is what forums can provide- -back into my dungeon:grin2:


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

charlie 1 said:


> Seriously !!, that`s all you can provide to disprove factual links?
> Oh well , i forgot this is what forums can provide- -back into my dungeon:grin2:


It's been proven by the more than 300,000 threads here at TPT that this really isn't something to worry about on any realistic scale. *All these threads do is push people away from using co2 because newbies especially get bewildered and confused and the cost and/or prospect of building one isn't for the masses. *


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> It's been proven by the more than 300,000 threads here at TPT that this really isn't something to worry about on any realistic scale. *All these threads do is push people away from using co2 because newbies especially get bewildered and confused and the cost and/or prospect of building one isn't for the masses. *


You think it pushes people away to give them both facts and observations??
I don't.
You actually think people use other peoples opinions.. lol..

I gave facts and even qualified it..
"people that run high concentrations of CO2 w/ large tanks should be aware of "the physics"..

NEVR EVER said one couldn't use a 1 stage or it's "bad"...
Said there were physical facts that one should be aware of..
Heck first run through w/ a CO2 tank will tell them how their specific reg. ACTUALLY works...

What I said, and stand by, is a 1 stage will increase the outlet pressure when the CO2 in the tank goes from having only gas to empty.
What that implies is an ind and system thing..

For those that want "the best" a 2 stage is part of that.. whether one needs it or not.
The justification is individual.
not only that, those that have the incentive and skill can build one (w/ luck and work) for the same price , if not cheaper, than a "commercial" one stage.

I think of this as "motivation" not stifling.


Like do you want a Radion XR15 or a $20 LED flood..

As to deterrence, don't you think you deter DIY in the bottle CO2 people? 

Your point is valid but it's only part of the story..


I push full channel LED control and high CRI for the very same reason and TRY to offer as many FACTS (be they necessary or not is an ind. choice)..
You want "the best' the safest" the least "worrying", the least "was it this", the most "flexible"??

nobody NEEDS any of it...and people WILL decide their own risk/reward regardless of what any of us say .. for the most part.. or should at least.




> Here come the quotes and the technical references of what could happen.


HORRORS.. how EVIL.. 

you can prove pressure creep doesn't happen w/ your own system.. You refused..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> you can prove pressure creep doesn't happen w/ your own system.. You refused..


Please tell me your kidding. I just got through showing a reg in my system that I used in normal usage for 13 years, emptying it till dry and your telling me I need to run an experiment. It's been used continuously for 13 years. It's a poster child to dispel the unnecessary need for a dual stage. 

So if I see a guy going 45, in the safest biggest car possible, with all the latest safety features and only going out on a sunny dry day that would be you I guess. Because if you go any faster, in anything smaller without all the latest safety features your arguing against physics. There's reasonable caution and then unreasonable. Making such a case for a dual stage when the incidence rate is so ridiculously small does not help the hobby.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> emptying it till dry and your telling me I need to run an experiment


Yes...

PURELY for fun:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scie...a-crowded-room-can-make-you-dumber-180948052/


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think the bottom line is it can certainly happen using a single stage. My GLA is living proof. But it's not a certainty by any means. Some regs/systems are going to experience it more than others. 

Everyone should be aware of the possibility and be on the lookout until getting a feel for how their particular set up is going to behave. 

I do think the risk is quite overblown in the hobby, a borderline scare tactic, albeit unintentional, for why everyone needs a two stage. Which is simply not true

And it's still funny to me that Ive had 3 cheapos that never did/do it, but this supposedly awesome GLA, which is a single stage but one of their biggest claims is no eotd - does it bad every single time. 

It is also wildly inconsistent from one day to the next, so bad Ive finally slapped a flow meter on it now running the nv wide open. But that is a gripe for another thread....


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

ONE way to look at it..
Knowing all the data, rumors,facts, and IF everything else is equal including price.. WHY would you buy a 1 stage??

Then from there you weigh choices...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

As I stated earlier there is reasonable caution and then unreasonable. Unreasonable caution would halt so much progress if you get hung up on the ridiculously low odds of something happening. Medicines wouldn't get approved, etc, etc. that's life. Getting a better needle valve would be FAR more reasonable then worrying about EOTD. 

On that note I'd like to introduce another member of my Bone Dry Gang. It's an Azoo Full Size with triple splitter, Dual Gauge, 6-ft, 3 Prong Power chord. This ones about 10 years old. The three regulators I've shown have 28 years of continuous usage.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Still awaiting a simple 10 min test............Gee you had years... 

That's the setup w/ more than one tank attached.. You do realize that will dilute any excess CO2..

tic-tok.. tic-tok...

https://youtu.be/M08hPs-J3SM


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

I can grow Monte Carlo carpet with one candle light burning for 6 hours LOL

Stay tune for the picture


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

LOL, I'm still waiting for a pic of @jeffkrol driving a Volvo doing 45mph on a nice dry day, because anything faster would be arguing the laws of physics in terms of accident prevention.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

What are you afraid of?



> Still awaiting a simple 10 min test..........


you are evasive as a politician...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Can someone else post something in this thread? I want to see if it's possible for @jeffkrol not to have to have the last word in a thread or edit/change his final post 10 times.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Can someone else post something in this thread? I want to see if it's possible for @*jeffkrol* not to have to have the last word in a thread or edit/change his final post 10 times.


You're evasive and condescending, and frankly rude most of the time.. NEVER saw you help anyone.. do you really belong here?

sorry, just how I see it..

EDIT: Your house of cards fits...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> You're evasive and condescending, and frankly rude most of the time.. NEVER saw you help anyone.. do you really belong here?
> 
> sorry, just how I see it..


Yep, didn't think it was possible. And of course your right. Never helped anyone here.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Prove your "worth" w/ the 10 min test...

I'll give you more credit than I've "personally" seen.. Seems you and I just clash on various subjects..


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Well let's see now that you brought it up.

I have 5452 posts with 1152 Likes received and I've given *410*
You have 8429 posts with 752 likes received and you given *2*

So I would think many people here like what I say. The fact that you've only given 2 likes tells me you think no one else has anything valuable to add and your above it all.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

houseofcards said:


> Can someone else post something in this thread? I want to see if it's possible for @jeffkrol not to have to have the last word in a thread or edit/change his final post 10 times.


The main thing I've noticed in the thread is all of your regs seem to be not be using CO2 proof tubing. I've seen some blue silicone stuff and I think I noticed some gray ADA tubing. So I think you don't have any EOTD issues because you really have no CO2 making it to the tank. It's all being lost through those few feet of nonCO2 proof tubing. 


Bump: For some reason this came to mind while reading through the thread . Nothing personal towards anyone. It just made me think of a couple of bits from the movie and thought I would try to lighten things a bit.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> Prove your "worth" w/ the 10 min test...
> 
> I'll give you more credit than I've "personally" seen.. Seems you and I just clash on various subjects..


I'm really not sure why you think I want any credit from you. I haven't seen any great setups from you. In fact I only see what's outside your tank almost never what's inside it. At the end of the day, it's about how well everything works to the benefit of the what's inside.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I'm really not sure why you think I want any credit from you. I haven't seen any great setups from you. In fact I only see what's outside your tank almost never what's inside it. At the end of the day, it's about how well everything works to the benefit of the what's inside.


WOW!!!! You are even too lazy to check out my profile...
Old photo.. b4 a massive sheer..
























































Happy??? Now about that test.....


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I always like the stone throwing part!>


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jeffkrol said:


> [/IMG]
> 
> Happy??? Now about that test.....


No, not really, but I'm sure your Angelfish is. He must sleep well knowing there's a dual-stage protecting him.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)




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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

And I’m immature?

BTW the pictures of your tanks. Is that the front or the back. I really can’t tell.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

55 is from on end (parrot cichlid).. Pink things (ludwigia) is from top/back. Rest are all frontal shots.
Not sure what diff. it makes..









BTW: You deserved it for picking on my sick angel..


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