# CO2 how many bubbles per second?



## mr hyde

I recently converted from DIY to a pressurized co2 system and was trying to determine a good starting point as far as bubbles per second. My co2 test kit hasn't arrived yet and I think it will be another week or 2 before I get it. I have a 46 gallon tank with a medium amount of growth. I run the co2 into the intake of the filter (eheim 2213). Right now I have it set at about 1 bubble every 4 seconds. I haven't put the regulator solonoid on a timer yet but am wondering if I should. I have a PH controller but don't have it hooked up just yet, only the tank. I want to find a safe bubble rate to use until I can start testing co2 levels and get everything in order. 
Thanks


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## George Willms

In order to determine the bubble rate that is right for you you need to test the water. Measure your pH and KH and see how much CO2 you have using the chart on Chuck Gadd's site here: 
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

Then SLOWLY increase your bubble rate from there until you reach the amount that you want. When I first did it I raised the bubble rate in the morning and would check the CO2 levels the next morning and increase the buble rate if needed until I reached the level I wanted. It took me about 4 days or so to get it to the level I wanted.


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## KyleT

You might want to invest in a quality CO2 reactor or make your own. On average I would say people run between 2-3 bubbles/sec and overtime this could severly damage your eheim. 

Kyle


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## George Willms

I run about 38 bpm (bubbles per minute).


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## Keith

Hi all
A good starting point would be Aquarium capacityxcarbonate hardness divided by 50 = number off bubbles a min. E.g 400ltx5dKH:50=40bpm.
Then test daily and increase if ness. Taken from a Dennerle article.


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## Scorpion

Fender963 said:


> You might want to invest in a quality CO2 reactor or make your own. On average I would say people run between 2-3 bubbles/sec and overtime this could severly damage your eheim.
> 
> Kyle




Elaborate on how the Eheim can be damaged pls


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## Ace

Sure that way is accurate keith?


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## Aftica

The Eheim may do a fair bit of "Burping" or get airlocked so to speak.


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## SCMurphy

I run a bubble ever other or every third second into the DIY reactors in my 30 gallon tanks. I started at a bubble a second and slowly backed off as I watched my stem plants reduce the pearling to a minimum. I did it this way because I don't use a controler or solinoid to stop the CO2 at night. The buffering capacity of the water can absorb the CO2 that gets added at night. 

The stem plants just barely pearl, it gives me an indicator of when I need to add some water column fertilizers, no pearling when I get home from work add some ferts and everything is happy again. If I add more CO2 than this the water begins to froth with the pearling and it gets hard to see anything. 

I can't use my "rooted" plants as indicators because they feed so heavily from the substrate that the water column ferts aren't their limiting factor.


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## Ace

Why pearling is bad in stem plants? :?


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## SCMurphy

Ace said:


> Why pearling is bad in stem plants? :?


It's not bad, its just my "low tech" was of controling my system. I use the plants as the indicators of what they need. I don't have them on "hyperdrive" so if something is wrong I can get it fixed in a time span that agrees with them.


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## KyleT

Scorpion said:


> Elaborate on how the Eheim can be damaged pls


As Aftika said, with a constant stream of bubbles your eheim will likely get air locked. Not only that but with a constant disruption of water flow, the impeller will be forced to work harder, and therefore wear out faster.

Kyle


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## Scorpion

Fender963 said:


> Scorpion said:
> 
> 
> 
> Elaborate on how the Eheim can be damaged pls
> 
> 
> 
> As Aftika said, with a constant stream of bubbles your eheim will likely get air locked. Not only that but with a constant disruption of water flow, the impeller will be forced to work harder, and therefore wear out faster.
> 
> Kyle
Click to expand...

Can this also happen with a Fluval?


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## KyleT

Scorpion said:


> Can this also happen with a Fluval?


Yes, it can with pretty much any filter that is propeller driven.


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## Wasserpest

After playing around with many designs, I am now letting the CO2 just bubble into the intake of my Filstar XP3.

If you look at the filter design, you will notice that the water enters on top of the filter and flows down on the sides of the media containers. It enters the baskets on the bottom and then flows through them to the top, where it enters the impeller housing and the outlet.

The small CO2 bubbles get dissolved on their way through the tubing. But even if they (or air) would enter the canister, they would stay in the top area of the pump around the media baskets, making it blubbering and noisy due to the splashing incoming water.

But... air/CO2 does NOT hit the impeller... unless of course it totally fills up with air. Now I don't know how the water flow in Eheims and Fluvals is directed, they might use a different design.

Sorry for being OT :shock: I have about 1.75 bubbles per second, and the bubbles measure about... just kidding, I don't know. Totally depends on the size of your bubbles, and your tank size, kH, whatnot. Somebody elses bubble count will not have any relevance to you.


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## anonapersona

The safest thing to do would be to start at the same bubble rate you had with DIY and then slowly increase from there, always making changes when you are there and awake to observe any problems as some needle valves are Quite sensitive and small changes make large changes in rates.

I started at 6 bpm, my DIY rate, and increased slowly until I got the pH I wanted. I took probably 2 days to be certain of each pH increase, checking that afternoon to be sure it was not too high, then again in the AM.

My pressurized system is temperature sensitive, so the late afternoon rate is higher than the early morning bubble rate, or at least it looks that way in the internal reactor. the pH is OK, so I don't stress over that.


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## Scorpion

George Willms said:


> I run about 38 bpm (bubbles per minute).


I thought I was the only one, but I see I am not alone


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## aeternum23

I was under the impression that it was the carbonic acid that would cause damage to the filter, not the CO2 itself. But I'm thinking that if the bubbles are completely dissolve before they hit any rubber fittings, that it'd be ok.


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## George Willms

Scorpion said:


> George Willms said:
> 
> 
> 
> I run about 38 bpm (bubbles per minute).
> 
> 
> 
> I thought I was the only one, but I see I am not alone
Click to expand...

Not alone in what scorpion? Using BPM instead of BPS?


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## Scorpion

BPS


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## mr hyde

I checked my water parameters today but this was right after a water change so I guess I lost a lot of co2. But here is where I am starting at:
PH 7.0
KH 60ppm(3.4 degrees)
according to the calculator on chucks site my co2 is at about 10.2 ppm.
If I were to add co2 until it brought the ph down to 6.8 my co2 reading should be at 16.166 according to the calculator. I guess I'll be aiming for around that. I think I understand it a little better now. If I get get my co2 to this level and I check KH again should it stay where it was at the start, at 60ppm? 
Thanks


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## mr hyde

I do have a reactor I plan on hooking up soon along with a controller. I wanted to do one thing at a time since this is new to me. 
One other thing I was thinking of is that it seems that it is really important that whenever you do a water change that the KH and PH of the new water you add to the tank is pretty close to the same parameters every time, especially using a controller otherwise it would seem that it would throw everything off. For example if you normally add water with a ph of 7.4 and then next time you add water with a ph of 7.8 then your controller will suddenly start pumping out loads of co2 to bring it down and raise your co2 reading. I used to sort of guess and add about 5 parts RO water to 1 part tap water but was not real accurate on my measuring. I got a 30 gallon container I am going to start using and mixing the water in this and checking the ph before adding it on water changes.


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## Wasserpest

Depends on how much water you change, and how quickly. If your tank pH is 7.0, and your tap water 7.8, and you change 25%, the tank pH would only raise up to 7.2, and if you do that slowly I wouldn't expect problem. Actually I am not sure... since the pH scale is logarithmic, my math is probably off. Anyways... assuming that tank and tapwater have the same hardness, the 7.8 tap water contains less CO2 than the 7.0 tank water, more CO2 is added as determined by the controller, and everything should just balance out nicely.


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## mr hyde

But what if the water added on the water change mix had too much RO water and the PH of the water change mix was lower say 6.8. Wouldn't the controller read this lower ph water as having plenty of co2 and stop sending co2 and then wouldn't the co2 ppm in the tank wind up at a lower rater eventually? I'm thinking that if it would effect it maybe it wouldn't be much but after several water changes the differences in ph could add up to alot.


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## Rex Grigg

The problem with running CO2 into the intake of a cannister filter is that if you lose power you can end up air-locking the filter. And believe it or not I doubt that very little of the CO2 is dissolving in the tubing.


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## Wasserpest

mr hyde said:


> But what if the water added on the water change mix had too much RO water and the PH of the water change mix was lower say 6.8. Wouldn't the controller read this lower ph water as having plenty of co2 and stop sending co2 and then wouldn't the co2 ppm in the tank wind up at a lower rater eventually? I'm thinking that if it would effect it maybe it wouldn't be much but after several water changes the differences in ph could add up to alot.


Only if the kH changes you will get fluctuations in CO2, assuming your controller is set to a fixed pH. If, however the kH would be the same (which obviously it isn't in the case of RO water) the pH 6.8 would really mean that there is enough CO2 in the water. So it's not the pH that is messing up things, but the kH. I never used RO water, but I guess if you use it together with a CO2/pH controller you need to be more consistent when changing water.


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## Wasserpest

> The problem with running CO2 into the intake of a cannister filter is that if you lose power you can end up air-locking the filter.


My intake tube enters the tank at an angle, when the filter is off the CO2 just bubbles to the surface, if it is on it gets sucked into the intake.




> And believe it or not I doubt that very little of the CO2 is dissolving in the tubing.


You might be right. The bubbles are very small. I hear a splash when they hit the first elbow in the tubing, and assume they get smashed up further. CO2 dissolves quickly, which I notice in another tank where I just bubble it in a powerhead, and via a spraybar tiny bubbles exit. Most of them dissolve completely during their short trip to the surface.
In any case, CO2 enters the filter, no CO2 exits the filter... all problems dissolved :mrgreen:


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## mr hyde

Rex Grigg said:


> The problem with running CO2 into the intake of a cannister filter is that if you lose power you can end up air-locking the filter. And believe it or not I doubt that very little of the CO2 is dissolving in the tubing.


The nice thing about a regulator with a solonoid is if the power goes out it stops co2 output. 

I think that a lot of co2 is wasted going through a canister filter, most of mine bubbles to the surface when the filter burps out a big pocket.


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## mr hyde

I went ahead and hooked up the co2 controller today. I have the set point at 6.8 with a KH of 60ppm (3.4 deg) so Hopefully this should put my co2 levels around 16ppm.


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## rumples riot

Well, I have about 10-15 bubbles per second on a 105g tank. That is so that the ph will drop to 7.0 and then turn off. On a big tank I found that the rate is much higher than everyone states. Has anyone else found this with a big tank or am I going through too much CO2?

Paul


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## agy

rumples riot said:


> Well, I have about 10-15 bubbles per second on a 105g tank. That is so that the ph will drop to 7.0 and then turn off. On a big tank I found that the rate is much higher than everyone states. Has anyone else found this with a big tank or am I going through too much CO2?
> 
> Paul


Realy Crazy 10-15 bubbles, LOL
My water is very soft 3.3 dGH
I think there something wrong or Your bubble counter is like Denerle 
I have 100 galons tank , curently run over 30ppm, drop checker Yellow, with ph controller too and only 180 bubbles/min that 3bub/sec
Also i tried many ways of disolving and no real difference via reactor or external filter, so i decided use extrnal filter, less things in tank.
Even if Your water is with 0 dkh 10-15 normaly disolved buubles with stnadart bubble counter measure impossibly.
I have denerle buble caounter and there so small bubbles , imposibly to count, i use china bubble counter 

About big tanks with good water flow is necessary inject 24/7 co2, i think no other way keep normal level, imposibly to gain some ppm if You switch on morning, maybe there Yours problem.
Without ph controller switching time to time in night off is very hard keep staedy 25-30ppm, but i think can find middle way like switch on 4AM, there need exact ph measures in all day night times and depend from many factors like flow, surface e.g.
I think can catch good ratio if make right measures.


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## Tommywantfishy

KyleT said:


> You might want to invest in a quality CO2 reactor or make your own. On average I would say people run between 2-3 bubbles/sec and overtime this could severly damage your eheim.
> 
> Kyle


Another option is to buy a sunsun 50 gph submersible water pump. It suctions onto the side of the tank and is tiny. I run it on my 9.3 uns Iwagumi that is why I went for a baby pump. For a larger tank you could do the same with a powerhead...so, anyways I stick a glass pollen diffuser directly under the pump. Pump intake is on bottom. I get a perfect mist throughout the tank. I have had inline atomizers, reactors, diffusers and nothing has worked as well as this. 

The Co2 is being diffused through an after market high quality diffuser...then is sucked into a chamber that breaks it down even more...and blows it pretty intensely through the tank. Prob a normal practice, but I tried it and it worked. 

Tldr

Sent from my SM-G920R7 using Tapatalk


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## madcrafted

I'm sure that they figured out how to disperse their co2 more efficiently in the 15 years that this thread was started.


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## Letsfish

madcrafted said:


> I'm sure that they figured out how to disperse their co2 more efficiently in the 15 years that this thread was started.


I know absolutely nothing about CO2 systems but what you are saying makes sense to me. I have been doing some reading on the subject and the thought has crossed my mind of setting one up. My tanks a low to mid-range setups meaning mostly easy to grow plants[swords, crypts, anubius]etc. My main concern is my critters and I certainly would not want to gas them to death. So to me this system would be a quality setup and from what I have been reading and an internet wishlist from top to bottom it would cost around $400.All the factors of this have been rolling around inside my head for a while and that is why I have not pulled the trigger yet along with being a greenest of greenhorns when it comes to CO2.


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## IntotheWRX

mr hyde said:


> I recently converted from DIY to a pressurized co2 system and was trying to determine a good starting point as far as bubbles per second. My co2 test kit hasn't arrived yet and I think it will be another week or 2 before I get it. I have a 46 gallon tank with a medium amount of growth. I run the co2 into the intake of the filter (eheim 2213). Right now I have it set at about 1 bubble every 4 seconds. I haven't put the regulator solonoid on a timer yet but am wondering if I should. I have a PH controller but don't have it hooked up just yet, only the tank. I want to find a safe bubble rate to use until I can start testing co2 levels and get everything in order.
> Thanks


i run about 1 bubble per second on my high tech 9 gallon thats turned on 5hrs a day.


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## Letsfish

Tommywantfishy said:


> Another option is to buy a sunsun 50 gph submersible water pump. It suctions onto the side of the tank and is tiny. I run it on my 9.3 uns Iwagumi that is why I went for a baby pump. For a larger tank you could do the same with a powerhead...so, anyways I stick a glass pollen diffuser directly under the pump. Pump intake is on bottom. I get a perfect mist throughout the tank. I have had inline atomizers, reactors, diffusers and nothing has worked as well as this.
> 
> The Co2 is being diffused through an after market high quality diffuser...then is sucked into a chamber that breaks it down even more...and blows it pretty intensely through the tank. Prob a normal practice, but I tried it and it worked.
> 
> Tldr
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920R7 using Tapatalk


What about running an inline diffuser on the outflow line after it leaves the canister filter.


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## GrampsGrunge

Letsfish said:


> What about running an inline diffuser on the outflow line after it leaves the canister filter.


That's what a Griggs reactor is for, or any other DIY inline CO2 diffusing chamber on the outflow of your cannister filter. 

Years ago I used the outflow of my old HOB that used J-tube intakes and a 160 gph outflow nozzle stuck into an old hand cleaner bottle as the mixing chamber.

As long as things are turbulent in the chamber you introduce CO2 into it should mix and dissolve away.


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## Tommywantfishy

Letsfish said:


> What about running an inline diffuser on the outflow line after it leaves the canister filter.


Done it. Problem is...I hate cleaning canisters....maybe just me. It adds one more piece of glass to deal with. This method is independent of the filter so one less thing to mess with. 

Sent from my SM-G920R7 using Tapatalk


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## OVT

I don't believe there is the "right" or the "best" way - every approach comes with its own set of pluses and minuses.

As far as counting bubles, you might as well count sheep. It is a usefull tool to see that co2 is actually flowing between two points. Bisedes that, it tells you nothing.

I am still waiting for a phone app that gives a 3D picture of the tank with co2 concentration overlays in real time.


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## JonWalter

This is a pretty difficult, if not impossible question to answer. There are a ton of variables, like surface agitation, type of filtration, how well your co2 is dissolving, plant consumption, and livestock generation of bubble. Just worry about getting to 25-30 ppm and keeping it consistent. If there is anything I've learned from planted tanks, it's that patience and consistency are vitally important.


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