# Algae popping up in my well-established high(ish) tech tank



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

As far as the GSA is concerned, you can try increasing the flow on the left side to see if that helps. If not, then dose more phosphate. It's possible your plants have grown to the point they are requiring more fertilizers than before simply because they're just that much bigger than before.

As far as the BBA, how much are you getting? How fast is it developing? Is it just in small areas or does it appear to be taking over? The general rule regarding BBA is that it's caused by low or fluctuating CO2 so starting the CO2 before the lights come on may help. You may also want to see if you can increase how much you're dosing when you are dosing the CO2. Other than that, it's really hard to say. I have found that BBA, once in the tank, never completely goes away, but tends to grow in small amounts in just a few places in the tank. As long as it doesn't get out of hand, then I don't worry about it. I may knock it back every few months, but it creeps back in. This includes all my tanks, even my low tech tanks. I think it's because the spores are in the tank (and I just transfer them from tank to tank).

If the BBA does appear to be getting out of hand, then work with your CO2 to keep it stable and to increase it as high as you can without gassing your fish.

As far as the shading, I doubt that's causing or even contributing to the algae. If anything, it's probably helping control the algae.

One thing you may also want to try for the BBA is to add fast growing stems. Tanks with active plant growth tend to have less algae than tanks with slow plant growth. So adding some fast growing stems may help.

It you can post a pic of the tank and the BBA, that may give us some more ideas of what to try.


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

I didn't think about the increase of plant matter creating a higher nutrient demand before, but that makes a lot of sense.

The BBA is not outrageous, but it is definitely spreading. I realize the most common cause of BBA is CO2 fluctuation, but I can't imagine mine has been changing significantly since I have not changed the flow rate or timer in quite some time. I did just adjust it up a bit this evening. It's also possible I've been misdiagnosing BBA for something else?

I will also increase phosphate dosing - are we talking a total of a heaping 1/8 tsp, or closer to double at a 1/4 tsp?

I do have a good amount of anacharis I could add, but I've melted it with Excel in the past. I'd like to avoid switching to H2O2 for BBA spot treating since I've read it can be harmful to catfish, of which I have 3 in this tank and I have no idea how I could catch them without tearing apart the entire tank since they hide inside the wood 

Here are a few pics:

Full tank shot:









BBA on java fern leaf (looking at it edge-on):









GSA on anubias leaf:









BBA in windelov fern:









My algae eater relaxing on top of BBA and never eating it:

















I do realize that's a CAE and not really interested in eating algae, but I thought it was funny either way  As a side note, the CAEs do actually munch on the white fungusy stuff that grows on the driftwood!

GSA on glass:









A few lights-out shots:


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## Canuck (Apr 30, 2009)

How old is this tank? The plants don't look "well-established" to me. If it's less then 6 months, I wouldn't consider it well established, and depending on your experience level you may go through "waves" of algae until it does. If this were my tank, I'd reduce your photoperiod to around 8 hours. You can get away with a 12 hour photoperiod with low lights but not with this much light. I'd fine tune the CO2, (this never hurts when you're having problems). The levels of ferts look fine to me, I'd leave these where they are. I'd fill out the tank with fast growing stems (at least temporarily). IMO, a large plant biomass seems to have some sort of inhibiting factor on algae growth.  Don't know why, don't know how, but it works and that's what matters. Make the algae's life miserable, ie manual removal, excel treatments, H2O2, anything that will kill/remove the algae without having too detrimental effect on plant growth. Remember the main strategy is lots of plant growth, not killing algae.

Hope this helps


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

Canuck said:


> How old is this tank? The plants don't look "well-established" to me. If it's less then 6 months, I wouldn't consider it well established, and depending on your experience level you may go through "waves" of algae until it does. If this were my tank, I'd reduce your photoperiod to around 8 hours. You can get away with a 12 hour photoperiod with low lights but not with this much light. I'd fine tune the CO2, (this never hurts when you're having problems). The levels of ferts look fine to me, I'd leave these where they are. I'd fill out the tank with fast growing stems (at least temporarily). IMO, a large plant biomass seems to have some sort of inhibiting factor on algae growth. Don't know why, don't know how, but it works and that's what matters. Make the algae's life miserable, ie manual removal, excel treatments, H2O2, anything that will kill/remove the algae without having too detrimental effect on plant growth. Remember the main strategy is lots of plant growth, not killing algae.
> 
> Hope this helps


Less than 6 months, yes, so perhaps that wasn't the right phrase to use. I just meant that it's not brand-spankin'-new and has remained quite stable for some time until just recently.

I'll cut the photoperiod back some, and add some stems!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Canuck said:


> I'd fill out the tank with fast growing stems (at least temporarily). IMO, a large plant biomass seems to have some sort of inhibiting factor on algae growth. Don't know why, don't know how, but it works and that's what matters. Make the algae's life miserable, ie manual removal, excel treatments, H2O2, anything that will kill/remove the algae without having too detrimental effect on plant growth. Remember the main strategy is lots of plant growth, not killing algae.


+1

I cannot agree with this more. What I'm seeing are a lot of slow growing plants. I think that's the main problem. You can get away with a tank full of slow growing plants if you cut your lights to a low light tank, but not if you have that much lighting.

To offer a comparison, look at my 90g journal. I am running 2x54w T5HO for 12 hours on that tank with EI ferts and injected CO2. I even have a 3 hour noon burst with 4x54w (as part of the 12 hour photoperiod). But look at how many fast growing stems I have in that tank. If you want to push that kind of light, you have to equal it not only with ferts and CO2, but also with fast growing plant mass. Too many people leave plant mass out of the equation, but it's a very important part.

As far as H2O2 harming catfish, that's the first I've heard of it. I have tons of otos in my tanks in which I dose H2O2 without any problems (and I use a very high dose of H2O2 - 4ml per gallon). However, if you're not comfortable using H2O2, that's fine. Excel will work just as well; it's just more expensive and you have to use less of it for each treatment so the whole process is slower. To help the process along, physically remove as much BBA as possible (without damaging the plants). If you can take anything out of the tank for treatment, then do so.

The existing BBA won't disappear on its own; however, with the addition of some fast growing plants along with lowering your lights, you should be able to get things in balance so it won't keep coming back.


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

I really did think that I had enough plant mass in there to be sufficiently using all available nutrients, but what you are saying makes a lot of sense. The pennywort is really the only fast-grower in this tank; I trim about 6" off each stem weekly. 

Would it be beneficial for the time being to remove one bulb from the fixture? Or just cut back the photoperiod and add more fast stems?

I may have been mistaken about the H202 regarding catfish, but I'm pretty sure I saw a post somewhere in this subforum where it was discussed... then again just because it was posted doesn't necessarily mean it's true. I do have a few otos in this tank but I was mostly thinking about the SA bumblebee cats (which are the reason I haven't added amano shrimp to help out, they all get eaten!). I did add two young albino BN plecos (about 1.25") but apparently they were two small to escape the catfish as well. Oddly enough the otos are no bigger than the BNs were, but they are doing just fine - perhaps it's a camouflage issue or they are just zippier. 

Complexity - your 90g is simply stunning! Would you recommend ludwigia as a nice fast-grower? 

I have set aside a few hours tonight to spend removing algae - should leaves that are heavily covered in GSA be considered a total loss and removed from the plant? Or can they recover?

Thank you very much for all the info I really appreciate it - I'm relatively new to the hobby (<1 year) but really enjoying it and learning a lot!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

elwray said:


> I really did think that I had enough plant mass in there to be sufficiently using all available nutrients, but what you are saying makes a lot of sense. The pennywort is really the only fast-grower in this tank; I trim about 6" off each stem weekly.


Yeah, the pennywort is a good example of a fast growing stem. You'll need more of those if you want to keep a high light tank.



> Would it be beneficial for the time being to remove one bulb from the fixture? Or just cut back the photoperiod and add more fast stems?


Either option will work (if your fixture will work with a bulb missing). So it's just a matter of which option you prefer. If you like the idea of having some fast growing stems in the tank, then give that a try. If not, then lower the lighting. You may even find yourself changing your mind as you go. That's fine, too. The main thing is to maintain the concept of balance and to take into consideration the number of plants in the tank and how fast those plants grow as part of the overall balance.

More light = more fast growing plants needed
Less fast growing plants = less light needed



> I may have been mistaken about the H202 regarding catfish, but I'm pretty sure I saw a post somewhere in this subforum where it was discussed... then again just because it was posted doesn't necessarily mean it's true.


When faced with a dilemma like this, I usually do more research on the internet to see what else I can find on the subject to either support or refute the initial claim.



> Complexity - your 90g is simply stunning! Would you recommend ludwigia as a nice fast-grower?


Thank you! That tank is definitely in the plant growing stage. Once my 75g reaches the same stage (it's almost there), then I can scape both tanks.

I definitely recommend ludwigia, especially Ludwigia arcuata x repens. That stuff grows in every tank I have so if you ever decided to go with a low tech tank, it will grow great in that setup as well.



> I have set aside a few hours tonight to spend removing algae - should leaves that are heavily covered in GSA be considered a total loss and removed from the plant? Or can they recover?


Make your best judgement. GSA is very hard to remove. I've heard nerite snails can eat it off, but I think it's a trade off because they leave lots of white eggs everywhere. I generally don't take my GSA leaves off, but if they really bother you, then you can remove them. Most plants will just grow new leaves in response. Since you're dosing ferts and pressurized CO2, you'll get the fastest possible growth from your slow growers which will help replace lost leaves.



> Thank you very much for all the info I really appreciate it - I'm relatively new to the hobby (<1 year) but really enjoying it and learning a lot!


You're very welcome. I've been at it (this time around) for a little over 5 years and I'm still learning all the time. I think that's part of the fun of this hobby. It's not something you can ever grow tired of because there's always something more to discover and learn. :smile:


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

I've kept nerites in other tanks before, and they are extraordinarily impressive snails! Five of them scraped clean every last inch of a 10g with lots of GSA. Unfortunately my tap water is not conducive to healthy nerites without excessive changes to water chemistry. I try to match my fauna to my water and not the other way around, but for them I'm seriously considering switching!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I must have had the most prolific nerites around. I had them for about 3 or 4 years, and I finally just gave them away. I couldn't stand the constant eggs everywhere. Even the temporary tank I had them in ended up with eggs all over the place.

Too bad I can't give you my water. It's great for nerites straight from the tap!


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Great advise from both Vicki and Dave, Spot on.. I agree with them both on this about BBA and the GSA. Have fought this battle before. 

Plants and Algae do not compete for nutrients, They both co-exist. Think of it like a forest. Are there weeds on a forest floor? Of course. Do they take over the trees? No. The trees grow much better and use the most resources. They grow well. The weeds on the floor below in comparison dont. BUT cut down a bunch of those trees. leave open space, The weeds will then proliferate. They now have the resources at their disposal. They are opportunistic. Just as Algae is. Algae pretty well exists in all tanks. We may not really see it or maybe we have some livestock that consume it rapidly enough. Plants are just more efficient at doing what they need to do if you grow plants well. Some are more so then others. 

Nerites are great at algae like Green spot. Ive got a Army of Amano Shrimp that really get busy on the BBA and hair algae.. As well as any GSA the Nerites miss.


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Complexity said:


> I must have had the most prolific nerites around. I had them for about 3 or 4 years, and I finally just gave them away. I couldn't stand the constant eggs everywhere. Even the temporary tank I had them in ended up with eggs all over the place.
> 
> Too bad I can't give you my water. It's great for nerites straight from the tap!



Hey Vicki.. Did they just lay eggs and never reproduce? It was my understanding they needed brackish water to breed. If that not the case.. Id love to have more Nerites and have mine breed.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Aquaticfan said:


> Hey Vicki.. Did they just lay eggs and never reproduce? It was my understanding they needed brackish water to breed. If that not the case.. Id love to have more Nerites and have mine breed.


No, they just laid the eggs. But boy did they lay eggs! Lots and lots of eggs. So when I cleaned out my 75g and replaced the substrate, I let go of the nerites. Too many white spots on everything, including the substrate.

When I said they were _prolific_, I was referring to the second definition, meaning _plentiful_, as in lots of eggs.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Substrate??? What is that? You should have so much plants that your substrate is barely visible. Yeah, 12 hours lighting period is too long. Try 8. Keep the drop checker color yellow (more co2) by middle of the lighting period. Watch for fish to see if CO2 level is too much.


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Complexity said:


> No, they just laid the eggs. But boy did they lay eggs! Lots and lots of eggs. So when I cleaned out my 75g and replaced the substrate, I let go of the nerites. Too many white spots on everything, including the substrate.
> 
> When I said they were _prolific_, I was referring to the second definition, meaning _plentiful_, as in lots of eggs.


Cool. I've got a bunch of eggs all over. I havent identified the eggs yet. Do they lay them in individuals or a sac/cluster like other snails? I think my unidentified eggs may be rainbow fish eggs


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Aquaticfan said:


> Cool. I've got a bunch of eggs all over. I havent identified the eggs yet. Do they lay them in individuals or a sac/cluster like other snails? I think my unidentified eggs may be rainbow fish eggs


Nerite eggs are unmistakable once you know what they look like. They're laid individually, but often in groups (so several individual eggs in the same general location). They're oval shaped and white in color. They are very hard to scrape off and they do not decay. It's as if they just sit there forever.

Here's a good picture of them: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/MolluscPIX/Gastropods/Prosobranch PIX/Snail Eggs PIX/Neale bog eggs.jpg


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## DvanK (Feb 27, 2009)

elwray said:


> I've kept nerites in other tanks before, and they are extraordinarily impressive snails! Five of them scraped clean every last inch of a 10g with lots of GSA. Unfortunately my tap water is not conducive to healthy nerites without excessive changes to water chemistry. I try to match my fauna to my water and not the other way around, but for them I'm seriously considering switching!


Which town do you live in. I have a ton of green myrio that I need to unload. It should do the trick as far as sucking up nutrients.


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

DvanK said:


> Which town do you live in. I have a ton of green myrio that I need to unload. It should do the trick as far as sucking up nutrients.


I'm in Englishtown, near Raceway Park. Without crazy traffic it takes me about an hour to get to the Lyndhurst area.


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## DvanK (Feb 27, 2009)

That's a little far but if you want to you can stop by on the weekday and I'll give you some. I can also ship it, just pay shipping and the plants are yours.


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## elwray (Mar 9, 2012)

DvanK said:


> That's a little far but if you want to you can stop by on the weekday and I'll give you some. I can also ship it, just pay shipping and the plants are yours.


Thanks, I appreciate it - I'll PM you!


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