# Can someone please help me save my tank, losing fish and plants.



## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So, I've had an established 10 gallon tank for ~7 months, cycled it and have had plants and a betta thriving in there up until about a month ago, maybe 2 months ago.

I started noticing that growth in the plants had just stopped, and everything is turning a yellowish color a couple months ago. During this time I was only dosing with Seachem Flourish once a week, and Seachem Flourish Excel every 3 days. I had (2) 13 watt 6,5000k CFL bulbs. About the time I started noticing the plants struggle I started getting an algae problem, what I suspect to be blue green algae popped up, some kind of hair algae maybe?

I admit I am brand new to all this, and just jumped in feet first with both fish and aquatic plants...needless to say, it's been a mess.

Where I sit now.

10 gallon w/ sand substrate
sponge filter ran by an air pump
heater
Lighting has changed to a single 15 watt T8 Fluorescent tube.
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Last week, I made a few diy osmocote plus gel caps and pushed them deep into the substrate. I also started dosing Excel daily, and Seachem Flourish twice a week.
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I will list the plants I know about, there are a couple in there I have no idea what they are or what their needs are.
Java Fern (have noticed any problems or growth from this)
1 amazon sword type plant
Another sword type plant I'm assuming
hornwort (which I hate, hate, hate the needles it sheds).
2 banana plants
And I have 2 other species of plants that I couldn't identify and don't remember their names from when I bought them.

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Right now I'm having issues where I am getting a small ammonia reading (between the first and second color on the API liquid test kit). And my nitrates keeps spiking, up to 60-80ppm. I was under the impression that having plants would take care of any ammonia or nitrates?

I also just lost 5 rasboras in 5 days, and nearly lost my betta. He's since been put in a 1 gallon container and improving until I figure out what's going on.

Can someone please, please help me get things back in order. Any suggestions, or advice is greatly appreciated at this point. I have plenty of pictures if it would help.


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## prp427 (Jun 28, 2011)

What is your water change schedule? Without a circulation filter water changes are critical, once per week minimum. 
I would hold back on the dosing until things stabilize.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Likely the Osmocote caps are driving your nitrates up.
The 13W CFL bulbs give the correct amount of light for a 10g tank/w one if it is
held in a vertical position over the tank by a lamp like a brooder lamp or two of them if in an incandescent fixture which holds them horizontal.
Ferts are incomplete. 
There are two "kits" on this link which would make it simple to dose full nutrients for the plants. "PPS Pro liquid ferts" and EI liquid ferts".
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=806066

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=107303#2

The more popular type of the ferte I believe would be the EI and you would only dose one each of the Micro/Macro solutions each week with perhaps a dose of your Flourish later in the week so it would last considerable longer than they say on there. EI is designed for tanks/w injected CO2 so you only need about 1/3 of what they suggest as doses. One dose per week instead of three of each.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> Likely the Osmocote caps are driving your nitrates up.
> The 13W CFL bulbs give the correct amount of light for a 10g tank/w one if it is
> held in a vertical position over the tank by a lamp like a brooder lamp or two of them if in an incandescent fixture which holds them horizontal.
> Ferts are incomplete.
> ...


It was 2 CFL bulbs housed horizontally, but I'm back to a single 15 watt T8 fluorescent tube.

The osmocote plus with the seachem flourish is still incomplete?

Thanks for those links, will look into them.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

prp427 said:


> What is your water change schedule? Without a circulation filter water changes are critical, once per week minimum.
> I would hold back on the dosing until things stabilize.


I change 20% of the water twice a week, until the ammonia showed up and the fish started getting sick. Changed 50% the first day I saw the ammonia jump, have been doing 25% daily since then until all the fish died. Only thing in the tank now is an assassin snail, I don't want to put the betta back in there until it does stabilize.

Would you hold back on dosing even the Excel?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Ive never had a problem with Osmocote spiking nitrate levels, and definitely not ammonia. So I think the ammonia issue is coming from somewhere else, like being under filtered, over stocked, over feeding, something along those lines. Best thing you can do is frequent 50% water changes until you get that sorted out. I would test the tap water too though, to make sure the problem isnt coming from that. 



[email protected] said:


> The osmocote plus with the seachem flourish is still incomplete?


Osmocote + is a complete fertilizer for any heavy root feeders like swords, crypts, etc. It offers very little in the way of a water column fert though. Your swords need it, but it's not going to help plants that feed mostly from the water column, stems, java fern, etc. 

Seachem Flourish Comprehensive (I assume that's what you mean, "Flourish" is a whole line of products) only contains Micros for all practical purposes. So as far as the water column goes, you're still lacking the big three Macros (Nitrogen, Potassium, Phosphorus) Check out those links Raymond posted, or Seachem makes them as well, Flourish nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus. 

Having said that, I dont think ferts are your plant's current problem either. Need to find out what is causing the ammonia spikes. It sounds like your tank is in a general state of bad health. Like *prp427* said, I wouldnt start adding a bunch of ferts until you get things sorted out better.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Ive never had a problem with Osmocote spiking nitrate levels, and definitely not ammonia. So I think the ammonia issue is coming from somewhere else, like being under filtered, over stocked, over feeding, something along those lines. Best thing you can do is frequent 50% water changes until you get that sorted out. I would test the tap water too though, to make sure the problem isnt coming from that.
> 
> 
> Osmocote + is a complete fertilizer for any heavy root feeders like swords, crypts, etc. It offers very little in the way of a water column fert though. Your swords need it, but it's not going to help plants that feed mostly from the water column, stems, java fern, etc.
> ...


Thanks a lot for all that, I really appreciate it. I wish I knew what caused it to be in such bad health. I've religiously done 20% water changes (every 2 to 3 days) since setting it up.

When I first started seeing the plant issues it was just a single betta, he got fed twice a day and only about 4 or 5 pellets...he's a pig so there was never any left over food in the tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Aside from the ammonia issue, let's assume you're going to get that sorted, with regards to your plants here's a couple thoughts:

I would go back to the cfl bulbs. A single t8 isnt going to sustain anything except maybe the java fern. You didnt say how long you were running the lights before, but start back with something like a 6 hour photo period. You can always increase it down the road once the algae goes away.

Keep dosing Excel. Additional carbon is always good for plants, and it is also an effective algaecide. It is only active for 12-24 hours though, so it needs to be dosed every day, not twice a week. 

Keep dosing the flourish comp, that will cover the micros. You may not need any additional nitrogen or phosporus, fish food will provide some degree of both. Probably do want to pick up some form of potassium though. Tetra FloraPride is cheap and easy to find, it contains potassium and iron. The additional iron will be good for the swords if nothing else. You may want to explore a more economical, fuller range of ferts down the road, but this should cover the basics until you get things stabilized.

In the meantime, manually remove whatever algae you can, and keep up the good tank husbandry like water changes, clean filters, etc.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Aside from the ammonia issue, let's assume you're going to get that sorted, with regards to your plants here's a couple thoughts:
> 
> I would go back to the cfl bulbs. A single t8 isnt going to sustain anything except maybe the java fern. You didnt say how long you were running the lights before, but start back with something like a 6 hour photo period. You can always increase it down the road once the algae goes away.
> 
> ...


I'm hoping to get it sorted, I am at a loss as to what may have caused it to begin with. Though, testing my tap water, it shows the same reading for ammonia that my tank does (~.25).

Your post inspired me to rewire the fluorescent hood I had back up with CFL. I initially changed it back to how it came because I was having an issue with keeping the fixtures in place since it was made for fluorescent. I have it set up really well this time around. Do you think that I should switch to (2) 9 watt bulbs, instead of the (2) 13 watt bulbs?

When I first used the CFL I was running them for 10-12 hours a day...obviously that caused some issues with algae (though not as bad as it could have been I don't think) that I am still dealing with despite cutting the light waaay back.

Thanks so much for taking the time to write that up for me.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I'm hoping to get it sorted, I am at a loss as to what may have caused it to begin with. Though, testing my tap water, it shows the same reading for ammonia that my tank does (~.25).


That could be the source of the problem. Even though .25 is not a very high level, the frequent water changes means a constant presence, and a likely build up of byproducts like nitrates. 

I hate trying to determine an exact reading from those API color charts. It could just as easily be .10 or .40, or even higher if the test kit is off. One thing you could do is test some bottled water and make sure it reads zero. Be sure to follow the directions exactly. Shake both reagents VERY well, and take the reading exactly when it says to (5 minutes or whatever). Also be sure the test is not expired. The last 4 digits of the lot number is the month/year of the manufacturing date. API claims they're good for 5 years. I wouldnt trust them after 3.

What do you use as tap water conditioner to remove chlorine? In this case, you need something that specifically states that it removes or "detoxifies" ammonia, like Seachem Prime, API Ammo Lock, etc. One thing to keep in mind though, is that when Prime or other products change ammonia to ammonium, it still reads as "ammonia" with the API and similar test kits. Although it is no longer toxic, it is still technically present, and will continue to go through the nitrification process, with nitrates being the end result. That may or may not be a concern at the levels you mentioned. (It sounds like it might be since all of your fish have died, esp if you're already using Prime or something similar). It really just depends on the sensitivity of your livestock. Otherwise it's just more nitrogen for the plants to eat.

You could always use bottled water by the gallon to be absolutely safe. It would be less convenient, and more expensive, but the good news is you only have a 10 gallon tank. After the initial fill, a couple gallons every week or two should more than cover it. Under normal circumstances, low tech tanks dont need big frequent water changes. You wouldnt necessarily have to change out the whole 10 gallons either. A 50% change with clean water would make a big difference. The plants and biological filtration could probably handle the rest.



[email protected] said:


> Do you think that I should switch to (2) 9 watt bulbs, instead of the (2) 13 watt bulbs?


Unless you have a dynamite reflector, like polished aluminum, I think the horizontal 13 watts would probably be best. Reducing the photo period from 10-12 hours down to 6-8 should be a big help. 



[email protected] said:


> Thanks so much for taking the time to write that up for me.


No problem at all. We're all up in here trying to learn something, especially me! :red_mouth


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> That could be the source of the problem. Even though .25 is not a very high level, the frequent water changes means a constant presence, and a likely build up of byproducts like nitrates.
> 
> I hate trying to determine an exact reading from those API color charts. It could just as easily be .10 or .40, or even higher if the test kit is off. One thing you could do is test some bottled water and make sure it reads zero. Be sure to follow the directions exactly. Shake both reagents VERY well, and take the reading exactly when it says to (5 minutes or whatever). Also be sure the test is not expired. The last 4 digits of the lot number is the month/year of the manufacturing date. API claims they're good for 5 years. I wouldnt trust them after 3.
> 
> ...


I mentioned how hard it is to read the API kit to my wife, usually double checking with her the color it's on in case my old eyes are starting to deceive me. I've also seen this complaint from other people about the API kit during my research.

I use Seachem Prime, so I was under the assumption that despite there showing some sign of ammonia/ammonium, it wouldn't be _as_ harmful to the fish. 

As for the light, it' just got the flimsy, white plastic reflector in the hood with the 2 bulbs, I've been cutting way back on the light it gets but still the algae persists, but the tank sits in a place where it gets (no direct sunlight) but plenty of light comes through a bay window not too far from the tank, I wonder if that is providing enough light throughout the day for photosynthesis, and I'm just adding to the problem by turning on lights?

Once (IF) I'm able to get things to stabilize, would you recommend doing about 20% water changes every week, instead of 20% every 2 or 3 days?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The Prime should take care of the ammonia being toxic, but you'll still have the resulting nitrates from it's breakdown. That _could_ explain the fish deaths, but it's simply food for the plants, so it's not the problem as far as your plants go. 

I would not rely on ambient light from the window to provide for the plants, but it most certainly can be contributing to the algae problem.

20% a week sounds good, 30% every two weeks. I have a heavily planted low tech 20 gallon that I change 5 gallons about once a month. Every tank is different, a lot depends on filter efficiency. With just a sponge filter you would probably benefit from small weekly changes.

Speaking of the sponge filter, you do use de-chlorinated water to rinse out the sponges, right? Because that could be significant if you dont.

Have you considered getting a better filter, or is there a reason you're doing the sponge w/air pump thing? Aquaclear 20s are only about 25 bucks on Amazon, that'd be a lot better overall than a sponge filter. It's certainly not a necessity, but since you're having issues...


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> The Prime should take care of the ammonia being toxic, but you'll still have the resulting nitrates from it's breakdown. That _could_ explain the fish deaths, but it's simply food for the plants, so it's not the problem as far as your plants go.
> 
> I would not rely on ambient light from the window to provide for the plants, but it most certainly can be contributing to the algae problem.
> 
> ...


Yeah, everything gets cleaned out in the old tank water i take out.

I had a Tetra Whisper 10i in tank filter before this one, but I didn't like how much space it took up in the tank, I couldn't fill the tank up very high with it in the tank and the hood on it, and I wasn't real pleased with how it worked. After some research, I read that a sponge filter would work pretty well with a planted tank since the plants should take care of most of the filtration. 

I actually have that Aquaclear 20 in my Amazon cart, I just have been trying to give the sponge filter a try. 

Any way I go I think I need to create some flow in the tank, plants sit motionless, gunk will settle on the leaves of the plants....but I worry about adding too much flow for a betta.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

I'm real big on sponge filters.
Any professional breeder will tell/show you.It is all most use!
That being said waterchanges are more then mandatory,but you sound like that should not be a problem.
When I want more circulation in my breeder tanks I add an airstone or two.They really move way more water then the sponge filters do.
Are you using one of the smaller sponge filters?Big ones don't get the water moving as well in shallow tanks.I use the smallest in my 5.5 breeders .


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Coralbandit said:


> I'm real big on sponge filters.
> Any professional breeder will tell/show you.It is all most use!
> That being said waterchanges are more then mandatory,but you sound like that should not be a problem.
> When I want more circulation in my breeder tanks I add an airstone or two.They really move way more water then the sponge filters do.
> Are you using one of the smaller sponge filters?Big ones don't get the water moving as well in shallow tanks.I use the smallest in my 5.5 breeders .


I'm using this one...just says it's a 4.5" biochemical sponge filter.
Amazon.com : Jardin Aquarium Fish Tank Biochemical Sponge Filter, 4-1/2-Inch : Pet Supplies

Air pump is a Tetra Whisper 10 (?), it has a valve and I open it up quite a bit while the tank is active/daytime. Turn it down quite a bit at night.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

As long as you have an inch or more above the tube the filter will work,but the farther from the surface the tube the more water it will move.This is why I went with the smallest one like yours I could find.I think yours is large?
If you already have a t on airline give an air stone a shot.
I cut a couple tubes shorter and they still work but I can't say the filter is uneffected?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Coralbandit said:


> As long as you have an inch or more above the tube the filter will work,but the farther from the surface the tube the more water it will move.This is why I went with the smallest one like yours I could find.I think yours is large?
> If you already have a t on airline give an air stone a shot.
> I cut a couple tubes shorter and they still work but I can't say the filter is uneffected?


Yeah, there's plenty of room above the outlet tube. I can try an air stone and see if that doesn't produce some kind of flow in the tank. I've also looked into powerheads to get things moving, but I'm not sure if that would be too much for the betta to deal with.

Bump: It has been 24 hours since my last water change (20%), tested the water again to see where I'm at and I'm hopeful that things are starting to calm down a bit.

I'm still getting a reading between 0 and .25 for ammonia (this is very hard to read, a con to the API test kit in my short experience with it. Nitrates are now at 10-20 (again, can't tell exactly).


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

.25 can be a false positive . The test aren't perfect.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Here's a few pics of the plants in the tank. Again, I have no idea what most of them are. And keep in mind, these were taken with my cell phone, so the white balance was going haywire between the ambient light in the room and the fluorescent tank lights. 









This sword plant was one of the original plants to enter the tank, used to huge with broad leaves, now it looks skinny and wimpy. This also shows some of the algae I am fighting, and shows how the gunk just settles on the leaves.









No clue what this big plant is on the right. But I assume if healthy it will be much, much too large for a 10 gallon tank.









This one shows a few separate plantings of some plants I have no idea about, but they seem to be an algae magnet, they've also lost a lot of color because they were a bright purple/red when I purchased them. This also shows the two different algae I am dealing with. I'm almost ashamed to post this photo because it appears that the tank is just an unkept mess when it hasn't been.









Not shown are an anubias something or another tied to a piece of driftwood (in the betta holding tank), and you can only partially see the stems of one of the plants in the back, used to be full of little leaves all the way to the base, now jus the top half inch has leaves, the rest is stem.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It sounds like you definitely need more circulation in the tank, one way or another. You can adjust the flow rate on those Aquaclears fwiw.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> It sounds like you definitely need more circulation in the tank, one way or another. You can adjust the flow rate on those Aquaclears fwiw.


I will grab a powerhead and see how that works out.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I will grab a powerhead and see how that works out.


Good luck finding one that doesnt pin the betta against the far wall  

Really if you're going to do all that why not just get a nice little HOB filter? Being so small, 10 gallon aquariums are volatile enough without skimping on the filtration system. Im not trying to bash sponge filters. I know a lot of breeders use them with great success, as Coralbandit pointed out. But I cant see any reason to use one over an HOB unless you're breeding shrimp in multiple tanks or something like that.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

^+1^


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Good luck finding one that doesnt pin the betta against the far wall
> 
> Really if you're going to do all that why not just get a nice little HOB filter? Being so small, 10 gallon aquariums are volatile enough without skimping on the filtration system. Im not trying to bash sponge filters. I know a lot of breeders use them with great success, as Coralbandit pointed out. But I cant see any reason to use one over an HOB unless you're breeding shrimp in multiple tanks or something like that.


I was told that even with a HOB filter, the waterfall would just cause flow in the immediate area of the tank, not the entire tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You were misinformed. The bulk of the "current" will of course be a straight path extending downward, directly in front of the outflow, from back to front. Then as the water meets the substrate and front glass, it will disperse outward, toward each side, and back around to the intake, creating a gentle "flow" throughout the entire water column. 

Allow me to demonstrate using professional ms paint skills. Imagine this rectangle is your 10 gallon tank. The flow would look something like this -











Obviously if you put a tiny filter on a 100 gal it's not going to cover the entire tank. But that is the general idea what you get from an appropriately sized filter, relative to the size of the aquarium. An Aquaclear 20 on a 10 gal, for example. Also you can adjust the flow on AQs from about 50% up to full blast, so it should be easy to find a 'sweet spot" where you have a gentle movement of water everywhere, without creating too much current for something like a beta. 

Honestly, I suspect poor filtration may be a large part of the problems you are having.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

^+1^
Big on AQ for HOBS also!
I think the AQ20 would be great for you!


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## Dariofan (Aug 4, 2014)

Just want to jump on & agree with those who have recommended the Aquaclear 20 for you. I had a 10 gal with this filter as my Betta tank for years and the current can be adjusted and was perfect for my big half moon. I use a sponge to cover the intake the one they sell on Amazon for fluval edge fits pretty good.


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## Roshan8768 (Mar 18, 2009)

Powerfilter will fix your fish issues... plants will recover as you get some stability. IME you really only need to dose P and some occasional Excel in most low tech systems. Add a couple more fish once your tank is stable and they will produce all the nitrates your tank needs. I'm also a big fan of not doing water changes more than once a month in most low techs... get better growth and plant health


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

I think I'll be ordering the AQ 20 and see if that doesn't help things along. I'll keep the sponge filter going to until the AQ 20 can establish its BB then use the sponge filter to help speed up the cycling process on a 20+ gallon (if I can get the 10 gallon turned around).

I did another test on the water, this time 48 hours since the last water change. The ammonia is still not reading the yellow color, its been consistently between the first and second color since it spiked. My nitrates seemed to be stabilizing though, as they are between 10-20 now for 48 hours.

Would it benefit me to take out the unhealthiest looking plants to give the healthier looking ones the best chance at recovery? The very tall stemmy plant that goes to the top (you can see a little bit of it in the very back of pic 3 posted above) was one of my favorite plants, but it's only the very top that has leaves (and a brown, slimy algae), the remaining 8 inches or so used to be full of leaves but now it's just a long stem.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Roshan8768 said:


> Powerfilter will fix your fish issues... plants will recover as you get some stability. IME you really only need to dose P and some occasional Excel in most low tech systems. Add a couple more fish once your tank is stable and they will produce all the nitrates your tank needs. I'm also a big fan of not doing water changes more than once a month in most low techs... get better growth and plant health


Is there a reason that more frequent water changes would lead to unhealthy plants? 

I'm nervous about adding fish with this betta because he seems pretty sensitive to new life in his tank. He's not aggressive but you can tell he's stressed.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Would it benefit me to take out the unhealthiest looking plants to give the healthier looking ones the best chance at recovery? The very tall stemmy plant that goes to the top (you can see a little bit of it in the very back of pic 3 posted above) was one of my favorite plants, but it's only the very top that has leaves (and a brown, slimy algae), the remaining 8 inches or so used to be full of leaves but now it's just a long stem.


If you like the plant, keep it. Just manually remove whatever algae you can and let it be. The lower portion will never recover, but when things get right it should start putting out new healthy growth on top. 

Here's a good example. This is some Mermaid Weed in one of my grow out tanks that recently went through a bad spell (to say the least).










Notice the lower part of the stem from a few weeks ago when things were bad. Then as you move up the stem, you can see the new growth change as things started to get better. Also notice the new healthy offshoot that's coming out from the very bottom of the crappy part of the stem. As long as the stem is not actually melted and mushy, it will continue to be useful to the plant.

Pretty soon I will cut all the old bad part off the bottom and re-plant the top. I could do it now and have maybe a 4" tall plant, but Im letting it grow a little more first.


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## Roshan8768 (Mar 18, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Is there a reason that more frequent water changes would lead to unhealthy plants?
> 
> I'm nervous about adding fish with this betta because he seems pretty sensitive to new life in his tank. He's not aggressive but you can tell he's stressed.


More water changes aren't necessarily bad for plants per say, but in a low tech system you really shouldn't need to do them more often than once every two weeks at the most (Especially with your current stocking) You may need to keep up your current w.c. system until your filtration gets settled.

Your betta will be fine, just make sure you get some peaceful fish that won't bother him. A small group of neon tetras or harlequins would look nice as would some cory cats. If he looks particularly antsy, you can always change up your scape a little bit to help diffuse any territorial disputes. But first get your filtration and nutrients in order :thumbsup:


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Is there a reason that more frequent water changes would lead to unhealthy plants?
> 
> I'm nervous about adding fish with this betta because he seems pretty sensitive to new life in his tank. He's not aggressive but you can tell he's stressed.


 
Some believe that CO2 from tap water causes fluctuation's in CO2 that can contribute to algae.
I personally do not subscribe to this thinking and have changed 50% of the water in my low tech tank's each week without issues.
You can alway's leave the change water sit for a few hours and CO2 will off gas or..you can change water while light's are off.(If you subscribe to the afore mentioned thinking).
I would not pretend to guess at what nutrient's may or may not be supplied by fishes and or fish waste/fishfood's,but would add a little of ALL macro and micro nutrient's.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> If you like the plant, keep it. Just manually remove whatever algae you can and let it be. The lower portion will never recover, but when things get right it should start putting out new healthy growth on top.
> 
> Here's a good example. This is some Mermaid Weed in one of my grow out tanks that recently went through a bad spell (to say the least).
> 
> ...



I will have to see if the stem is mushy or not. I use the plant weights from fake plants to hold them down in the sand, just stuff a few stems into the open hole of the weight. I wonder if doing that will cause an issue. 

I have a heck of a time getting anything without roots to stay down in the sand.

Bump:


Roshan8768 said:


> More water changes aren't necessarily bad for plants per say, but in a low tech system you really shouldn't need to do them more often than once every two weeks at the most (Especially with your current stocking) You may need to keep up your current w.c. system until your filtration gets settled.
> 
> Your betta will be fine, just make sure you get some peaceful fish that won't bother him. A small group of neon tetras or harlequins would look nice as would some cory cats. If he looks particularly antsy, you can always change up your scape a little bit to help diffuse any territorial disputes. But first get your filtration and nutrients in order :thumbsup:


I tried Harlequin Rasboras with him. I added 3 at first, the Rasboras and Betta seemed to do ok with that, couple days later I added 2 more Rasboras. I did a water change before adding the 2 new Rasboras (after acclimating them), and within an hour or two of adding the last two Rasboras the Betta starting showing signs of being ill. Got him to a 1 gallon tank with epsom salt treatment, and the 5 new Rasboras proceeded to all die within 5 days.

Bump:


roadmaster said:


> Some believe that CO2 from tap water causes fluctuation's in CO2 that can contribute to algae.
> I personally do not subscribe to this thinking and have changed 50% of the water in my low tech tank's each week without issues.
> You can alway's leave the change water sit for a few hours and CO2 will off gas or..you can change water while light's are off.(If you subscribe to the afore mentioned thinking).
> I would not pretend to guess at what nutrient's may or may not be supplied by fishes and or fish waste/fishfood's,but would add a little of ALL macro and micro nutrient's.


I'm going to start slowly extending my wc's and see what kind of change that brings to the overall health of the tank. I was changing ~20% ever 2-3 days (2 gallons). Maybe I'll start with changing 20% once a week to start off with.

I did notice last night while observing the planted tank (looking for new leaves or some kind of improvement), that the plants were pearling and the hair algae has started to turn pink....hoping that's a sign of improvement.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I will have to see if the stem is mushy or not. I use the plant weights from fake plants to hold them down in the sand, just stuff a few stems into the open hole of the weight. I wonder if doing that will cause an issue.
> 
> I have a heck of a time getting anything without roots to stay down in the sand.


I wouldnt use those plant weights. It's best to plant stems separately, only one per hole. When you plant them in bunches the bottom portions become choked out for light, circulation, and general room to grow properly.

It's impossible to do with your fingers, gotta use tweezers. Clasp the bottom of a single stem inline with the tweezer, and push it all the way down til you hit glass. Then relax the tweezers to allow some sand to fall back in around the stem, and then gently pull the tweezers out. Rinse and repeat.


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Change the water.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> I wouldnt use those plant weights. It's best to plant stems separately, only one per hole. When you plant them in bunches the bottom portions become choked out for light, circulation, and general room to grow properly.
> 
> It's impossible to do with your fingers, gotta use tweezers. Clasp the bottom of a single stem inline with the tweezer, and push it all the way down til you hit glass. Then relax the tweezers to allow some sand to fall back in around the stem, and then gently pull the tweezers out. Rinse and repeat.


I will definitely change that up then.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Can anyone identify the plant from the first photo on the 2nd page? And the reddish colored plants in the foreground of the last photo?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Im not sure about the top pic. Bottom pic looks like Ludwigia repens. Second pic from the top is Argentine sword. Other sword looks like a young melon or osiris converting from emersed form.

Plant IDs are not my strong suite mind you, somebody Im sure will correct me if wrong.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Im not sure about the top pic. Bottom pic looks like Ludwigia repens. Second pic from the top is Argentine sword. Other sword looks like a young melon or osiris converting from emersed form.
> 
> Plant IDs are not my strong suite mind you, somebody Im sure will correct me if wrong.


Thanks, that definitely looks like Ludwigia, I can't get that to grow anything but algae, but I noticed yesterday after close inspection before lights out that there is some new growth at the bottom of a couple of those plants.

The Argentine Sword used to be HUGE and healthy....an old(er) pic from ~3 months ago. Also the Ludwigia was a real rich red/purple color which is gone (assuming that's an iron issue)?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So, I'm having more water parameter craziness after testing the water today.

Ammonia spiked to 1.0
Nitrites remain at 0
Nitrates are now reading zero...

Any idea what is happening?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Any idea how to proceed from those readings above? Please?

I am under the impression that the BB would still be alive/active since there's been ammonia in the tank since this whole ordeal started? But I've never gotten a 0 nitrate reading.


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## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm sorry you're having problems still... it can be so frustrating. Since you have no fish in the tank at this time (it is my understanding that they all died) I'd take the time to figure out what is happening and get it sorted so your tank will level out and support both fish and plants.
https://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/cycling.html
The link above may be helpful.
Couple of questions;
What temperature is your tank running at?
What are the exact results of your tank API testing on the tank and the tap? Specifically I am wondering what your pH levels are and I'd also like to know kH and gH of your tank, though that requires an additional test that you may not have. I'd get it and know your exact parameters so that you can solve the mystery of your ammonia problems. 

Personally I love my eheim canister filters which allow great filtration without taking up tons of space on the side of your tank. I'm not saying that is the solution, you can certainly figure this out without changing filters, but the amount of nitrifying bacteria housed in a canister filter is certainly a bonus. I mention this b/c you are considering a new filter per your previous comments.

I hope you get this all sorted out!

Heather


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

HSA1255 said:


> I'm sorry you're having problems still... it can be so frustrating. Since you have no fish in the tank at this time (it is my understanding that they all died) I'd take the time to figure out what is happening and get it sorted so your tank will level out and support both fish and plants.
> https://www.cs.duke.edu/~narten/faq/cycling.html
> The link above may be helpful.
> Couple of questions;
> ...


I lost 5 harlequin rasboras, 4 days after adding them to the tank. I have a betta that is still alive that had been in that tank for ~6 months. I don't have anything to test the hardness, so I will get that this week.

Tank Parameters right now that I know:
Temp is 79°
Ammonia: 1.0 (did ~40% water change this morning)
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 0 (this is the first day I've seen NO nitrates
pH: 7.6 (this has stayed exactly the same since the tank became cycled.

Tap water I've only tested the ammonia and it comes out at .25. I wonder if the API test kit I have isn't reading 0 ammonia right because I've yet to see even a hint of yellow during any ammonia testing.

Thank you for taking the time to help me try and figure it out. I was pretty convinced a day ago that everything had stabilized, so it's a bit disheartening to see the ammonia spike again. Makes me want to give up on fish keeping altogether.


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## GadgetGirl (Oct 11, 2013)

API test kits, although difficult to determine the correct value sometimes, are quite reliable. If you have ammonia in your tap water the only recourse is to use RO water and then recondition it with Seachem equilibrium to add back the CA and MG. You could probably use store bought distilled water since you're only dealing with 10 gal. You may be able to use half tap water, half distilled water since the ammonia isn't too high. Just be careful to do this slowly as to not shock the fish! 

Also, adding more fast growing plants will help. Hornwort is amazing for removing nutrients! 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

GadgetGirl said:


> API test kits, although difficult to determine the correct value sometimes, are quite reliable. If you have ammonia in your tap water the only recourse is to use RO water and then recondition it with Seachem equilibrium to add back the CA and MG. You could probably use store bought distilled water since you're only dealing with 10 gal. You may be able to use half tap water, half distilled water since the ammonia isn't too high. Just be careful to do this slowly as to not shock the fish!
> 
> Also, adding more fast growing plants will help. Hornwort is amazing for removing nutrients!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


Thanks, I have a good bunch of hornwort in there.

With ammonia from the tap I was assuming that the prime would detoxify it until the biological cycle in the tank removed it. Being moderately planted, I wouldn't think .25 ammonia would stick around very long between the plants and the BB.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So I tested the water again, about 3 hours after I changed the water this morning.

Ammonia: 0 (first time I've seen it actually yellow since this started)
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0

So did my cycle get killed, or? No nitrate shouldn't be happening in a planted tank, should it?


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

If no nitrate [be very sure you are really shaking that bottle!] in the water then plants are doing better! They are taking up nitrate and you better get some more to them. What is your fertilizing regime?


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Yeah, I shake the second bottle violently lol.

No ammonia, nitrites or nitrates shouldn't be happening should it? 

I dose excel daily, flourish comp. Twice a week, and leaf zone once.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Still have no fish in the tank? There went your primary source of nitrogen (nitrates). The only macro nutrient in the ferts you listed is potassium, what's missing is nitrogen and phosphorus.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Still have no fish in the tank? There went your primary source of nitrogen (nitrates). The only macro nutrient in the ferts you listed is potassium, what's missing is nitrogen and phosphorus.


Yeah, no fish, just a snail. I didn't want to put the fish back in until things stabilized but water parameters are all over the place still.

You think it's best to reintroduce him to the tank and just monitor the water?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Man idk. I'd probably wait until you have the tank more stable. But regardless, one betta isnt going to provide enough nutrients for a well planted tank. Be a good idea to go ahead and pick up some nitrogen and phosphorus. Then you'll have a full range of both macros and micros.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

I was having problems with high nitrates not more than 5 days ago.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah but assuming you get rid of the ammonia issue, then you wont have any at all. Phosphorus is an essential macro as well, it's easy to measure with a phosphate test. 

Plants are limited by whatever nutrient is in the least supply. If any one thing is low or missing everything comes to a screeching halt. Plants stop growing and that's when algae takes hold. Zorfox explains it very well here - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=517945


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Thank you


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Man idk. I'd probably wait until you have the tank more stable. But regardless, one betta isnt going to provide enough nutrients for a well planted tank. Be a good idea to go ahead and pick up some nitrogen and phosphorus. Then you'll have a full range of both macros and micros.


Forgot to add Osmocote+ diy root tabs to my list of fertilizers. Not sure if that makes a difference in what else needs dosed.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> Forgot to add Osmocote+ diy root tabs to my list of fertilizers. Not sure if that makes a difference in what else needs dosed.


Osmocote+ is a complete fertilizer...for heavy root feeders like the swords. But it doesnt add much, if anything, to the water column. 

So you're essentially starting from nothing when it comes to supplying nutrients to plants that feed primarily from the water, like stems, etc. Still need to add all three macros (N, P, K) and micros (traces, Fe). Flourish Comp is a complete micro. The Leaf Zone adds K, and additional Fe. Missing from the list is the other two macros, nitrogen and phosphorus. A well fed, heavy fish load will supply a certain degree of both, otherwise you'll need to supplement them. The good news is both are easy to test for which makes it simple to know if you have enough or not.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So, the craziness continues, as does my madness.

After doing nothing at all to the tank yesterday, I tested the water again this morning.

Ammonia: 1.0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20

Ammonia keeps spiking to 1.0 like every other day.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Osmocote+ is a complete fertilizer...for heavy root feeders like the swords. But it doesnt add much, if anything, to the water column.
> 
> So you're essentially starting from nothing when it comes to supplying nutrients to plants that feed primarily from the water, like stems, etc. Still need to add all three macros (N, P, K) and micros (traces, Fe). Flourish Comp is a complete micro. The Leaf Zone adds K, and additional Fe. Missing from the list is the other two macros, nitrogen and phosphorus. A well fed, heavy fish load will supply a certain degree of both, otherwise you'll need to supplement them. The good news is both are easy to test for which makes it simple to know if you have enough or not.


Thanks, I am making more sense of it now. I need to nail down what it causing the ammonia and nitrates to fluctuate so much, especially the ammonia.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Didn't touch the tank again.

Ammonia: 1.0
nitrites: 0
nitrates: 60


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

I seem to be posting to myself at this point, but will continue to do so in hopes that someone might come along with some idea of how to correct my issue.

Decided to get a reading of all the water associated with the tank.

This is just an ammonia reading, first (left to right) vial is from the tank, second is aged source water, third is straight from the tap.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I would put away the test kit's.
I would change 25 to 35 % of the water each week using the PRIME for new water.
I would return the Betta to the tank or..I would purchase no more than three small fish such as common Glow light tetra's and observe the fish closely for first week while feeding once every other day a tiny amount of food (a couple flakes crushed with your finger)
If after a week or two,the fish were still thriving,I would add another couple three glowlight tetra's to make a small shoal .(no more)
After another week or ten day's,I would then add the Betta.
I do not suggest this for everyone but in this case, I have zero confidence in your test result's considering there is nothing to contribute to ammonia except for maybe dead plant matter which should be removed.(no food or fishes to contribute to ammonia)
I would also take on board other's suggestion's for complete fertilizer macros/micros.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> I would put away the test kit's.
> I would change 25 to 35 % of the water each week using the PRIME for new water.
> I would return the Betta to the tank or..I would purchase no more than three small fish such as common Glow light tetra's and observe the fish closely for first week while feeding once every other day a tiny amount of food (a couple flakes crushed with your finger)
> If after a week or two,the fish were still thriving,I would add another couple three glowlight tetra's to make a small shoal .(no more)
> ...


Thanks, I will be ordering the complete fertilizer either this week or next week. And probably an Aquaclear 20 along with it, and some more plants.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

At this point I think roadmaster's suggestions are excellent. And even if you do have a little ammonia coming from the tap, the Aquaclear will do a whole lot better job of dealing with it.

You may want to go ahead and grab a pre-filter sponge to go over the AQ's intake. It will add another level of mechanical and bio filtration. It will also help keep the other media cleaner. I use them on just about everything. Something like this - Amazon.com : 2 Pcs 75mmx65mm Aquarium Fish Tank Water Cleaning Biochemical Filter Sponges Black : Aquarium Filter Accessories : Pet Supplies


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> At this point I think roadmaster's suggestions are excellent. And even if you do have a little ammonia coming from the tap, the Aquaclear will do a whole lot better job of dealing with it.
> 
> You may want to go ahead and grab a pre-filter sponge to go over the AQ's intake. It will add another level of mechanical and bio filtration. It will also help keep the other media cleaner. I use them on just about everything. Something like this - Amazon.com : 2 Pcs 75mmx65mm Aquarium Fish Tank Water Cleaning Biochemical Filter Sponges Black : Aquarium Filter Accessories : Pet Supplies


Thank, I am hesitant about throwing fish in there though, and adding 5 tetras and the betta and the snail will be pretty overstocked for a 10 gallon I would imagine.
Also I don't know how tetras are with nipping, the betta already bites his tail enough, I don't think he needs any help.

I was looking at options for a pre-filter. Does that go over the whole intake? I thought water had to move through it for it to be beneficial?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I think his point was to throw a few small expendables in there to test the living conditions for a week or two. Like the ol' canary in a coal mine. Ideally something that you like and would be compatible with the beta if it all works out. Ive never kept a beta so no idea what that would be.....neons maybe, or what he said.

The sponge pre just goes over the opening at the bottom of the intake tube. So the filter draws water in through the sponge first.

Here's one of mine. This is also an AQ20 




















** Man I really need to wipe that back glass lol. It doesnt show up so bad in person. :icon_eek:


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Ah, I gotcha on the filter, I didn't realize it was that open, I thought it drew it just from an opening at the very bottom of the intake.


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## Dariofan (Aug 4, 2014)

Hope things are getting better for you. One issue I had once in my 1st 10 gallon Betta planted tank- I thought the tank was cycled but the Betta wasn't producing enough waste to maintain the bacteria- the plants were using it all up so when my plants did poorly & I removed & majorly pruned- My tank went into a cycle. Could there be anything hidden dead in the tank that's causing that ammonia- a snail or something? Just some thoughts.

Also I have a fully cycled "old" planted tank & constantly have 0 nitrate readings. The greedy plants use it all. Just have to add more fish or fertilize to see that go above 0 - if the tank is cycled. I agree my API test kit usually is hard to tell between 0 & .25, but I've never had that high of a reading as yours shows. There's got to be something producing that ammonia. I would see what you can find in the tank (living snails even can be very messy & produce lots of waste), don't put any fish in, keep doing small water changes & checking your levels 1st to see if you see nitrites/nitrates to tell if this is a cycle. If you get your ammonia down to 0-.25 & it's no sign that its cycling or rising again I would try adding a fish. How does the snail act? Whenever I've had mini-cycles & problems they are first to react & climb out of the tank.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Yes,to the Glow light tetra's no more than three for first few week's.
These are inexpensive, small active fish and more importantly,, adapt to wide range of water chemistry.
Three in a ten gal tank would not represent much in the way of bioload and plant's along with bacterial colony on sponge,plant leaves,substrate,should easily handle the waste created by the sparse feeding's for first few week's.
After ten day's to two week's for these first few tetra's and all is well,then place another three and the Betta last.
The glowlight's are hardy,stay fairly small, and although they swim in all area's ,they tend to stay nearer the bottom and will pose no threat to the Betta for they are not known for fin nipping.

If you go for the aqua clear (good choice), I would maybe remove the sponge filter, but leave the wet,old sponge that is currently running on it ,,in the tank.(good bacteria housed here)
It may appear unattractive for a couple week's but much less so than fishes floating belly up.
Can also leave both filter's running but it does sorta clutter the top edge of small ten gal tank.
I, would just remove the sponge filter from the apparatus and leave the sponge in the tank for a couple week's.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> If you go for the aqua clear (good choice), I would maybe remove the sponge filter, but leave the wet,old sponge that is currently running on it ,,in the tank.(good bacteria housed here)
> ....
> I, would just remove the sponge filter from the apparatus and leave the sponge in the tank for a couple week's.


+1. Could place it under the AQ intake, or wedge it behind/around it a little bit. That would create a little flow through the old sponge which would help things along.


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

One quarter of a teaspoon of salt will safely detox your nitrite. Kill the blue green algae, it is super poisonous. Lights out for a week is a safe way to do that. It will cause another spike. Keep using 2x prime and salt. Monitor total salt. It does not evaporate. If you replace 1/3 if your water use 1/3 of the salt original dose in the replacement water. Restart with lower ferts.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> Yes,to the Glow light tetra's no more than three for first few week's.
> These are inexpensive, small active fish and more importantly,, adapt to wide range of water chemistry.
> Three in a ten gal tank would not represent much in the way of bioload and plant's along with bacterial colony on sponge,plant leaves,substrate,should easily handle the waste created by the sparse feeding's for first few week's.
> After ten day's to two week's for these first few tetra's and all is well,then place another three and the Betta last.
> ...


Thanks for the fish suggestions, I just don't want to overstock and cause another problem.

I was just going to run the sponge filter and AQ20 until the AQ20 got itself going.

Bump:


Gold Finger said:


> One quarter of a teaspoon of salt will safely detox your nitrite. Kill the blue green algae, it is super poisonous. Lights out for a week is a safe way to do that. It will cause another spike. Keep using 2x prime and salt. Monitor total salt. It does not evaporate. If you replace 1/3 if your water use 1/3 of the salt original dose in the replacement water. Restart with lower ferts.


Not having a nitrite problem, nitrites have never showed up on a test since the tank cycled. The algae isn't out of hand or even enough to bother me enough to worry about at this point. From my understanding, dosing a complete fertilizer and healthy plants will do the job against any algae issues.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Hate to say this , but considering all the stuff you've been going through with this tank , maybe you should just break it down and start all over . Seriously . 
Save the plants , of course , put them in a rubbermaid container or similar while you're re-setting . Drain the tank completely , bleach it , rinse it out a few times . New substrate , just plain fine natural gravel, rinsed thoroughly . I think that's where your problem lies . Somethings going on in there . Time to hit the reset button , and start off anew , with a new set of water quality measurements you can work from .


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> Hate to say this , but considering all the stuff you've been going through with this tank , maybe you should just break it down and start all over . Seriously .
> Save the plants , of course , put them in a rubbermaid container or similar while you're re-setting . Drain the tank completely , bleach it , rinse it out a few times . New substrate , just plain fine natural gravel, rinsed thoroughly . I think that's where your problem lies . Somethings going on in there . Time to hit the reset button , and start off anew , with a new set of water quality measurements you can work from .


This may be in the cards. But I don't want a natural gravel, I much prefer the sand. I will try the suggestions above about adding a few, small hardy fish and see how they do and if it helps (along with some more plants and correct/complete fert).

If that fails, and I continue to have the problem I will probably break everything down and just be done with trying to keep a fish. It's not worth the headache, or hassle for something that is supposed to be calming to watch.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Try adding the fish , and plants , and see what happens . Give it a couple of weeks . With the equipment you've got , you should be able to keep a small tank like you have going for several years without any major drama . If things don't work out , do a breakdown and reset . When you do this , rinse the sand really well , until the water runs clear . If the sand's black under the top layer, and you have a heavy rotten egg smell , you may have found the problem in that something's anaerobically decomposing , there's not enough voids in your substrate for a tiny bit of water flow.If this happens , put down around 1-1/2" of fine gravel , and cap it with maybe 1/2-3/4" of sand . This'll give you the appearance of the sand that you want , but will allow some water circulation below . You've gone this far , you've got all the gear , one more try won't hurt anything .


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> Try adding the fish , and plants , and see what happens . Give it a couple of weeks . With the equipment you've got , you should be able to keep a small tank like you have going for several years without any major drama . If things don't work out , do a breakdown and reset . When you do this , rinse the sand really well , until the water runs clear . If the sand's black under the top layer, and you have a heavy rotten egg smell , you may have found the problem in that something's anaerobically decomposing , there's not enough voids in your substrate for a tiny bit of water flow.If this happens , put down around 1-1/2" of fine gravel , and cap it with maybe 1/2-3/4" of sand . This'll give you the appearance of the sand that you want , but will allow some water circulation below . You've gone this far , you've got all the gear , one more try won't hurt anything .


Thanks for the suggestions, we'll cross that road when we get there if this doesn't work I guess.

I pulled a few bad looking leaves out yesterday, one thing I did pull was a left over stem that must have broke off when I moved a plant a while ago, it was only an inch of stem, but half was black and it did have a bit of an odor to it....I wouldn't think something that small would cause that high of an ammonia spike.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> put down around 1-1/2" of fine gravel , and cap it with maybe 1/2-3/4" of sand . This'll give you the appearance of the sand that you want , but will allow some water circulation below . .


... and it wont be long before the sand is on the bottom and the gravel is on the top. Because the sand will fall down into the cracks between the gravel. It will happen over time if left completely untouched. Disturb it once and it'll happen immediately.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So I went ahead and decided to pull everything out, because frankly at this rate, I was never going to use the tank again. Please advise on what else I should do before putting it all back together. Like, is there something I can do to the plants (excel bath?) to rid their leaves of any stray algae so I can start fresh with them.

So far:

I emptied 5 gallons of the old tank water into a bucket, I put the rocks in there, the heater in there and both filter in there running. I'm hoping that will keep any good BB ok until I set it all back up?

I pulled all the plants and put them in a bucket of tank water (I assume they'll be ok in there for a while?)

I pulled the sand substrate out, and thoroughly rinsed it. Then I strained it to get all the osmocote+ pellets out of there. Then I thoroughly rinsed it again. I don't see any stray pellets of osmocote+ in the sand I strained and it's running clear so I'm thinking it will be ok.

Do you think bleach is really necessary to wipe down the empty tank (just the glass)?

I will take a photo of a couple of suspect plants, maybe someone more knowledgeable than I can decide if the plant is no good.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Here's those pictures of a the two root plants. Guess I'm most concerned about the first one and it's brownish roots.

Note: Each root plant had a DIY Osmocote+ Tab...or two, under it.

This is the new(ish) plant in the tank, it's been in there ~2 months and hasn't really done any. Hasn't grown, shown any difference in color, no new leaves...it never melted or anything when I brought it home. But the roots are brownish colored, they are pretty thick and I had a hard time planting it as I couldn't get it and all those roots down in the sand.









Those are the roots for this plant









This one has been in the tank since I set it up. Bought it from one of those tubes at Petco, was just 4 leaves and grew into this huge, neat plant, then slowly withered down to its wimpy, present state.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

May have asked this before, but did you buy the actual Osmocote+ yourself, as compared to say, ordering it from a stranger on the internet? Because someone could put anything at all in a gel cap and call it osmocote+.

I know some people apparently get a nitrate spike from using it, but I have 3 different tanks with it, two of which are absolutely loaded, and Ive never had a problem as far as nitrates go -and certainly not ammonia.

As for the plants, yeah those roots look bad. The white ones are healthy. The brown ones are....not healthy. Probably should just leave them like they are since they dont look entirely dead. If any are actually mushy cut those off.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> May have asked this before, but did you buy the actual Osmocote+ yourself, as compared to say, ordering it from a stranger on the internet? Because someone could put anything at all in a gel cap and call it osmocote+.
> 
> I know some people apparently get a nitrate spike from using it, but I have 3 different tanks with it, two of which are absolutely loaded, and Ive never had a problem as far as nitrates go -and certainly not ammonia.
> 
> As for the plants, yeah those roots look bad. The white ones are healthy. The brown ones are....not healthy. Probably should just leave them like they are since they dont look entirely dead. If any are actually mushy cut those off.


I purchased the osmocote+ myself from the store and packed them into 4 gel caps and buried them deep into the substrate, pretty much to the glass.

Any idea what I can do to get rid of some of the algae on the plants I pulled out?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Keep them in a bucket for a couple days with no light should kill off most of the algae. Manually remove what you can with your hands under the faucet, both before and after.

Ive sprayed plants down with straight peroxide before (out of the water), let it sit 10-15 minutes then rinse it off. A 50% solution with water would probably be better. I DO NOT necessarily recommend doing this, because some plants dont tolerate it well. The swords would be OK. The Ludwigia...probably. As for the more sensitive stems.....idk.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Keep them in a bucket for a couple days with no light should kill off most of the algae. Manually remove what you can with your hands under the faucet, both before and after.
> 
> Ive sprayed plants down with straight peroxide before (out of the water), let it sit 10-15 minutes then rinse it off. A 50% solution with water would probably be better. I DO NOT necessarily recommend doing this, because some plants dont tolerate it well. The swords would be OK. The Ludwigia...probably. As for the more sensitive stems.....idk.


The algae wasn't horrible. I have some kind of hair algae that was mostly just on the ludwigia. Picked up 3 more plants tonight, couldn't find the other 2 fertilizers I needed as the only store that was carrying Seachem products stopped carrying their plant lines.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Be sure to get some soon or you'll be right back in the same boat. Especially since you have no fish to rely on for the nitrogen and phosphorus. 

Amazon.com : Seachem Flourish Nitrogen 250ml : Aquarium Treatments : Pet Supplies

Amazon.com : Flourish Phosphorus, 250 mL / 8.5 fl. oz. : Phosphorus Fertilizer : Pet Supplies


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Glad to see that when you pulled up the sand it wasn't black and smelly . I'll go along with burr740's comments re: the plant's roots . Probably no need to bleach the tank sides , I just tend to go overboard when I redo a tank due to a problem . Out of curiosity , did you have a lot of stuff wash out of the sand when you rinsed it ? Anyway , hopefully this will solve the problem , no idea what else you could have done . Just give the new setup a few weeks to get stable before you start to stress over water parameters . Suspect the tank will re-cycle .


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Be sure to get some soon or you'll be right back in the same boat. Especially since you have no fish to rely on for the nitrogen and phosphorus.
> 
> Amazon.com : Seachem Flourish Nitrogen 250ml : Aquarium Treatments : Pet Supplies
> 
> Amazon.com : Flourish Phosphorus, 250 mL / 8.5 fl. oz. : Phosphorus Fertilizer : Pet Supplies


Yeah, ordered them from Prime this afternoon, should be here Monday. I'm a little hesitant about the DIY root tabs, but I know there is a Flourish root tab, I assume it would be a good idea to still put a tab under each of the root feeders?


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## Gold Finger (Oct 13, 2011)

Perhaps your substrate is anaerobic as some old guy said. Not all sands are good. Some pack too densely and all can get clogged with detritus if never disturbed. Perhaps you should consider a layered substrate with a sand cap and naturally rich lower level.

Bump: Perhaps your substrate is anaerobic as some old guy said. Not all sands are good. Some pack too densely and all can get clogged with detritus if never disturbed. Perhaps you should consider a layered substrate with a sand cap and naturally rich lower level.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> Glad to see that when you pulled up the sand it wasn't black and smelly . I'll go along with burr740's comments re: the plant's roots . Probably no need to bleach the tank sides , I just tend to go overboard when I redo a tank due to a problem . Out of curiosity , did you have a lot of stuff wash out of the sand when you rinsed it ? Anyway , hopefully this will solve the problem , no idea what else you could have done . Just give the new setup a few weeks to get stable before you start to stress over water parameters . Suspect the tank will re-cycle .


Yeah, nothing nasty aside from what you would expect pulling up the substrate. I trimmed all the plants, took care of the mushier brown roots and replanted, we'll see what happens. My biggest rock I had in the tank was partially buried in the sand and when I pulled that up it had a little black going around the bottom that was buried and it had a slight funky smell to it, so I left that out of the tank.

I wouldn't say I had a lot of stuff when I went through the substrate, the water was cloudy, but I would expect that. I made sure the rinse, rinse again, and then rinse off what I rinsed. The Osmocote must not have been in there long enough as I pulled the full beads out of the substrate.

How should I proceed from here? Should I spend a couple days doing water changes and clearing the water up, then adding a few glow light tetras?

Edit...Also, should I dose the fertilizer I have as I normally would? Larger dose of Excel in the morning since it's a totally untreated tank? Seachem Flourish Comp. and Leaf Zone on separate days, and then dose the nitrogen (if needed) and phosphorus when it comes?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> I'm a little hesitant about the DIY root tabs, but I know there is a Flourish root tab, I assume it would be a good idea to still put a tab under each of the root feeders?


I dont think the problem had anything to do with the O+, but I can certainly understand if you are reluctant to use them now. Regardless of what kind you use, the swords definitely need some root tabs.



[email protected] said:


> How should I proceed from here? Should I spend a couple days doing water changes and clearing the water up, then adding a few glow light tetras?
> 
> Edit...Also, should I dose the fertilizer I have as I normally would? Larger dose of Excel in the morning since it's a totally untreated tank? Seachem Flourish Comp. and Leaf Zone on separate days, and then dose the nitrogen (if needed) and phosphorus when it comes?


Turn the filter on. Plant heavy. Dose everything. 

After 24-48 hours, the filter media will probably need a good rinse. Add a few glo lights to get the cycle going. Include the old sponge filter for a week or two as was mentioned before. That will speed up the cycling process. Keep in mind that the established bacteria in the old sponge have to eat too, or it'll just die off. So I'd get some fish in there right away, and feed them well.

I'd probably do a 50% water change after 4-5 days. Then something like 25% every 4-5 days for a couple weeks. Unless the fish start acting funny, then you may need to change slightly more. Keep in mind the tank will go through at least a mini cycle. So you dont want to do a big water change every other day for example. That will only delay the natural processes.

Edit: Just to be clear, by dose everything I didnt mean all at once. Do the excel daily, and the macros/micros on different days like you said. The point was to begin a full fert routine right away once the plants are in.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Certainly I'd do 50% water change after 4-5 days . I might stretch out the 25%changes to weekly , but thats pretty much a matter of taste , I think.
Probably a root tab under each sword plant is a good idea , you want to get more of those good white roots going . Think I'd go easy on the rest of the ferts , nothing in the water column before the first water change so you can get some measurements as to what your water chemistry was immediately after setup, and again right before the first water change ,maybe 1/2 dose for 2-3 weeks after that, until everything gets stabilized . Remember that everything's got to reestablish itself now , so adding a bunch of stuff all at once could put you in the position of not knowing exactly where your tank is in relation to it's initial setup . Once you see how things are going , then ramp your dosages up slowly over a few weeks


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks! You guys are awesome, I will try and keep this periodically updated until it hopefully starts thriving.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yes, keep us posted!


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

So, the tank cleared up over night. Would it be a good idea to do a small water change, and swish around the filter media after clearing the tank over night and introduce some of those fish?

Also, I did a large dose of excel per the bottles instructions, can I dose either the micro or macro today with it?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The media could probably use a good rinse now. Im not sure a water change is going to do much one way or the other at this point, but it's not going to hurt anything. Then yeah add some fish. Nothing's going to happen, cycle wise, until you get some livestock in there eating and pooing. For the purpose of preserving the bio from the old sponge and establishing it in the new set-up...sooner is better than later.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> The media could probably use a good rinse now. Im not sure a water change is going to do much one way or the other at this point, but it's not going to hurt anything. Then yeah add some fish. Nothing's going to happen until you get some livestock in there eating and pooing.


Thanks for the quick response. Any advice on dosing excel and fertilizer the same day?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Excel should be dosed every day because it's only active for 12-24 hours. It does not influence or interfere with ferts at all. On fert days they can be dosed at the same time one right after the other.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Excel should be dosed every day because it's only active for 12-24 hours. It does not influence or interfere with ferts at all. On fert days they can be dosed at the same time one right after the other.


Thanks, sorry for all the questions.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

No worries mate. I often have a lot of questions myself


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

What's protocol for a reset tank like this? Treat it like a fish in cycle and change the water once the ammonia or nitrites get above .25-.50?

I went to the LFS and grabbed some water wisteria and the plant pictured below, hoping someone can help identify it (I have a bad habit of just picking what looks neat and forgetting to get the name). I also got a Kyoto plant that comes in a tube from Petco, but after further research it seems that, despite what the packaging says, it's not an aquatic plant.

Anyways...can anybody identify this plant?


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

That's Brazilian Pennywort, Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Grows fast and the leaves complement the wisteria leaf shape as well. It would rather float than be planted and will grow out of the tank if you let it.

Good luck, hoping the strange spiralling out of control has stopped for good and your tank prospers from here on out.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

[email protected] said:


> What's protocol for a reset tank like this? Treat it like a fish in cycle and change the water once the ammonia or nitrites get above .25-.50?


Something like that. I wouldnt get too fussy over testing, especially after all you've been through here. That's why I said earlier change something like 25-30% every 4-5 days for a couple of weeks. And otherwise dont worry about it. It should work itself out in a couple weeks anyway. If the fish start acting funny or you lose one or two, then you can change a little more, or do it sooner. 

Im not telling you to throw a way the test kit, but something like above is what I would do. Ive never worried too much about cycling and all that. I just do small frequent water changes for two or three weeks and forget about it. In 25+ years of keeping fish I rarely lose any doing it this way.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Don't know that there's any hard and fast rules as such for a reset tank . In your case , I'd treat it as a fish in cycle , but remember that you've inoculated the tank with stuff from your sponge filter , which may well speed things up a lot . Keep an eye on ammonia/nitrite levels and do changes as appropriate if levels get over .25-.50 like you said , or if your fish start showing signs of distress . 

Re: the plant , check out Cardamine lyrata in the Plant Profiles section .


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Kathyy said:


> That's Brazilian Pennywort, Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Grows fast and the leaves complement the wisteria leaf shape as well. It would rather float than be planted and will grow out of the tank if you let it.
> 
> Good luck, hoping the strange spiralling out of control has stopped for good and your tank prospers from here on out.


Almost looks the same as pennywort, it also closely resembles what someoldguy said too. Looks like each fresh stem and leaf have roots growing from it.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

2 days in with the glowlight tetras, haven't changed the water yet. Not real familiar with Tetras and their behavior but these guys seems to be doing ok. They kind of sat in one spot for about a day (probably stressed, and unfamiliar tank), but they seem a bit more active today.

I fed them later in the night when we brought them home. Acclimated them, turned the lights off for a couple hours, then fed them after about 6 hours in the tank, they were all eager to eat. I also fed them twice yesterday, again, eager to eat. Today is the day I usually fast the betta so I won't be feeding today.

Everything seems to be going ok 2.5 days in.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Eager to eat is always a good sign.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Eager to eat is always a good sign.


I figured as much. Only thing I notice is one will kind of break off from the other two and go surf the right side glass for some time. Then eventually meet back up with the other. I've had a couple instances of one (the biggest one) chasing the other two.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds like just normal hierarchy behavior. How many did you get? They probably do best in a very minimum of 5 to 7.

Also I wouldnt fast them today. The establishing cycle, along with the bacteria in the old sponge, will benefit from a steady helping of fish poo. Plus I doubt they were very well fed wherever you got them from, so they dont need it at this point either.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Just 3 to start with, to see if things work out, then going to add 2 more in a couple weeks.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Fed them, 2 ate 99% of it, the other took a piece and spit it back out.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

add two or three more now is what I'd do, probably stop that one from getting bullied


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Add more after only a couple days with these? Would that not spike a shaky recycling tank?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The extra poop from three little tetras is not going to be enough to spike anything, assuming you feed them properly - ie, once or twice a day what they can eat in 2 minutes.

If anything, having such a small bioload as in there now is going to stretch the cycling process out longer, or at worse starve out the bacteria on the old sponge you're hoping to seed/establish.

Bacteria gotta eat too ya know. 

Bump: That's what I was saying earlier. Get enough fish in there to create a decent bio-load, change 25-30% of the water every 4-5 days...and dont worry about it. Couple weeks you'll be golden.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> The extra poop from three little tetras is not going to be enough to spike anything, assuming you feed them properly - ie, once or twice a day what they can eat in 2 minutes.
> 
> If anything, having such a small bioload as in there now is going to stretch the cycling process out longer, or at worse starve out the bacteria on the old sponge you're hoping to seed/establish.
> 
> ...


Be a good idea to change a good portion of the water before adding 2 more to the tank?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd just wait until 4-5 days have passed and do the 25-30% thing. You dont want to be changing too much water, or too often, because all that does is keep the tank reset to square one, thereby inhibiting the cycle you're trying to establish. If the fish you have now are fine, there's no reason the new ones wont be fine as well. 

Something else, Ive been meaning to ask you about the osmocote+ caps you made before. Approximately how many balls did you use in each capsule, and how many capsules? 

10 gallons is a small volume of water. You'd need nowhere close to a gel-cap full. In fact, you probably dont even need the caps. Just use tweezers and add like 6-8 individual balls around each sword. Then you can always add more if it turns out to need it. (Im not saying do this now, just pointing it out)

If you added full gel caps before, that could very well have been the problem...a severe overdose causing those ammonia spikes and poisoning the roots.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> I'd just wait until 4-5 days have passed and do the 25-30% thing. You dont want to be changing too much water, or too often, because all that does is keep the tank reset to square one, thereby inhibiting the cycle you're trying to establish. If the fish you have now are fine, there's no reason the new ones wont be fine as well.
> 
> Something else, Ive been meaning to ask you about the osmocote+ caps you made before. Approximately how many balls did you use in each capsule, and how many capsules?
> 
> ...


I'd say ~6 fit in each gel cap. And I put 4 of the gel caps in the substrate. Only thing I can think of as possible culprits is too much Osmocote+ (I'm really not convinced it was this) or the rock with a slight odor to it, pretty much everything else went back into the tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

yeah that doesnt sound like you used too much O+. Those brown roots got me wondering so just thought I'd ask


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> yeah that doesnt sound like you used too much O+. Those brown roots got me wondering so just thought I'd ask


It doesn't seem like it would be too much, on the other hand, with it just raising ammonia and nitrates, it makes me wonder.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Added another 2 Glow Light Tetras and 2 more plants today. And, I know you said not to worry too much about testing the water, but I at least wanted a read of it before adding more fish. Nitrates were a bit high (~60) so I changed 2.5 gallons. It had been 4 days since I reset everything.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Ok, got the Aquaclear 20 ordered for the tank with a couple prefilters. Also got my order in for fertilizer (Liquid NPK+M fertilizer with GH booster). Hopefully things will be thriving in a few weeks.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

The AC20 arrived today. Put it all together, used the filter media ( Amazon.com : Marineland PA0100 Bonded Filter Pad, 312-Square-Inch : Aquarium Filter Accessories : Pet Supplies ) that was in my tetra in tank filter in it instead of the carbon to try and seed it a little quicker, sound right?

So it goes (from bottom, up) sponge, old filter media, biomax.

I'm also running the sponge filter still, and probably will do so for a couple weeks.

Hopefully the ferts I ordered off of here get here soon.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

[email protected] said:


> The AC20 arrived today. Put it all together, used the filter media that was in my tetra in tank filter in it instead of the carbon to try and seed it a little quicker, sound right?
> 
> So it goes (from bottom, up) sponge, old filter media, biomax.
> 
> I'm also running the sponge filter still, and probably will do so for a couple weeks.


 Sounds good to me!
Testing every couple of days to detect any mini cycles would be advised also.
Good luck!


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

I've been in some sort of mini cycle since I started this thread. I'm really wanting it to stabilize so I can get my Betta back in his tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

For some reason I thought you already had the AQ. Prepare to see a big difference in the overall well-being of things. If there is live bacteria on the filter pad then yeah it will help a lot. Otherwise your plan sounds good. Just keep up the small water changes every few days, in a couple of weeks it'll all be fine.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

No, I had the tetra in tank filter and the sponge filter running. Now the aquaclear and sponge filter.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Got a new light for the plants, much prefer the clean lines of the LED compared to the bulky CFL hood, no idea which direction I went light wise (higher/lower?) and couldn't seem to get help on the question in the lighting subforum.

Fertilizers should be here early next week, so if I can't get this tank to thrive after this then I quit.

I did check the water today, and no ammonia which is a welcomed sign. Still showing a tiny bit of nitrites though, assuming that will work itself out shortly?

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: .25-.50 (can't tell on the color chart)
Nitrates 20

A picture as it sits now, what do you guys think?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sounds like the cycling process is nearing the end. Tank is looking sweet! :thumbsup:

What kind of light is that? (brand, model, etc)


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Sounds like the cycling process is nearing the end. Tank is looking sweet! :thumbsup:
> 
> What kind of light is that? (brand, model, etc)


Finnex Stingray. I'm thinking it's a step down in lighting perhaps, hopefully not to the point where it causes an issue with growing the plants, I think it will be fine but I have no idea what I'm doing, so there is that.

In hindsight I should have thought it through more as I want to put my betta back in the tank, but with no top I don't want him jumping out...though I've never seen him jump at all before.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Not sure if bettas are prone to jump out or not. Lowes will cut you a piece of glass for cheap though.

That light should be OK for your current set up. Great color rendition. Looks like about 35 PAR at the substrate -


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Tank looks NICE!roud:
Bettas are known jumpers.
Even a cheap DIY screen cover would or egg crate would add a layer of safety for him.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks! Yeah, they can be known to be jumpers. I don't really want to add a screen though as that will cut down the light even more.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Looks like you're in pretty good shape , the nitrites should be gone shortly .Just keep an eye on the stem plants for rot neat the substrate , and start slow with the ferts . You don't want to overdose and end up with an algae-infested mess.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> Looks like you're in pretty good shape , the nitrites should be gone shortly .Just keep an eye on the stem plants for rot neat the substrate , and start slow with the ferts . You don't want to overdose and end up with an algae-infested mess.


Thanks. Ferts recommend 1 squirt each (micro/macro) 3x weekly, I'm going to start once a week with them and continue to dose excel daily, I'll also start off with this new light at 8 hours a day and see how I end up at the end of the month.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

Sounds good, I think at this point you're just going to be tweaking things a bit at a time to find out what is the optimal setup re: ferts/Excel/ lighting duration . Probably take a month or 2 , but once you're there , you're pretty much on cruise control . Once that nitrite passes , get your fish stocking the way you want , and maybe consider a glass cover , it'll keep evaporation down and keep fish in.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

someoldguy said:


> Sounds good, I think at this point you're just going to be tweaking things a bit at a time to find out what is the optimal setup re: ferts/Excel/ lighting duration . Probably take a month or 2 , but once you're there , you're pretty much on cruise control . Once that nitrite passes , get your fish stocking the way you want , and maybe consider a glass cover , it'll keep evaporation down and keep fish in.


I won't be adding anymore fish, just put the betta back in today. I think with him, the 5 glow light tetras and the assassin snail that will be enough for this tank.

Nitrites went to 0 this morning.

Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: 20

Thanks so much to everyone for all the help and suggestions. Still not positive what caused the imbalance, but it seems to have worked itself out at this point. I'm sure I'll have a ton more questions once I start properly fertilizing everything and the plants start showing what they do and don't need.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

:thumbsup:


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Wanted to update this with some progress and things I've noticed, have a few questions too.

I'm early into the second week of a using a complete fert, and I've already seen a lot of progress, some unexpected happening, and some algae or sign of deficiency...or both.

First, this wisteria (?) has shown some pretty significant new growth in just a week. You can see the new growth out the top is much bigger and greener than the old growth below. These were just trimming from buying them new a couple weeks ago before I started fertilizing correctly.









Whatever this grass type plant is in the middle of the photo, kind of in the background, has shot off two runners where I see some new growth (just a couple leaves on each runner). They are on each side of the new plant just in front of it a few inches away from the main plant.










And for some questions....I'm getting either algae or the anubius and pennywort are showing some form of deficiency...or I've got a little of both, I'm hoping someone has an idea from a couple photos.

First the pennywort. Some of this will rub off with some rubbing, some of it almost looks like it stained the leaf.









And the anubius. The old growth is showing this same brownish coloring, some of it can rub off but it take some effort....and again, some of it looks stained. 









New growth on the anubius, it put out a new leaf after a couple of days, but it looks great so far as I can tell. You can see the brownish leaf above from the same plant.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

The brown is diatoms, which is common in new tanks. With good tank husbandry it should run it's course and go away on it's own in a few weeks...or less. Yours appears to be a very mild case fwiw.

The wisteria is converting from emmersed to submerged growth. Also looking good for such a short period of time. 


Let's see a full tank shot of this jewel! :red_mouth


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> The brown is diatoms, which is common in new tanks. With good tank husbandry it should run it's course and go away on it's own in a few weeks...or less. Yours appears to be a very mild case fwiw.
> 
> The wisteria is converting from emmersed to submerged growth. Also looking good for such a short period of time.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I wasn't sure if I would have to put up with the diatoms again since I did pretty much start over. Hopefully with the growth it won't last long.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That's off to a great start. :thumbsup:

Betta man looks happy.


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Little update. Getting some amazing growth out of a lot of my plants, most notably from the Water Wisteria as it transforms from being in the water, the new growth is bright green and bushy.

Another plant that is doing extremely well is the Narrow Leaf Chain Sword, it's putting out runners daily. It kind of surprises me that a carpet plant like that would grow so well with the Finnex Stingray light.

I am having some problem with what appears to be a filthy, unkept tank though.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=838977


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

Everything is going pretty great with the tank. But I'm starting to run into a problem with what looks like blue green algae (cyanobacteria?). Green slimey stuff growing on the leaves, and substrate.

What all do I need to test to figure out what may be causing this?

My lighting schedule since EI dosing with double dosing Excel daily is 5 on/4 off/5 on. I'm not seeing any other form of algae, so would adjusting my photo period make any difference, or is this a water parameter issue?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Man, the difference in plant growth from the above pic and the one you posted today in the low tech thread is pretty amazing.

I have no experience dealing with cyano. Here's some pretty good info - http://www.guitarfish.org/algae


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## [email protected] (Nov 16, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Man, the difference in plant growth from the above pic and the one you posted today in the low tech thread is pretty amazing.
> 
> I have no experience dealing with cyano. Here's some pretty good info - http://www.guitarfish.org/algae


Yeah, the growth has been pretty hectic. Especially the real bright green cabomba, which just started from those two sad looking clippings toward the front right in the photo above, and one other clipping towards the middle in the back.

Thanks for the link, I'll have to look into what is causing it. I thought with the kind of growth I am seeing that I wouldn't have to worry about algae too much.


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