# Swaped out a reactor for a Venturi



## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

My presurized CO2 was hooked to a Reactor 1000. I swapped out the Reactor 1000 that was run in-line with a Fluval 404 for a Mezzei 3/4" Venturi hooked to a Rena Filstar XP3. The difference was immediately noticable. My PH which had returned to 7 by the end of the all-day project and tank cleaning dropped back down to 6.2 much faster than it ever did with the reactor. Later when my controller switched back on once again I noticed how short a time it was on before the PH dropped back down. I admit I don't think the ideal way to hook up the reactor is in-line, I believe it would have been better to have it in tank. Regardless, the Venturi wins the contest hands down as the better way to inject CO2 into [my] tank.


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## fluff34567 (Nov 15, 2005)

where did u get the venturi from and how much please??


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

Aquatic eco-systems $54 for 3/4" assembly.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

How large are the hoses on the rena? I may try this as I'm having similar issues with my reactor. Just don't see a 5/8" option so I'd probably get the 3/4" model.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

What's the structural difference between the venturi and your reactor? I can't see a big difference between










and










...unless there's something else that the venturi employs?

Not trying to say you're wrong or anything, I just want to understand the venturi better, for DIY purposes.


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

The 3/4" venturi fit my Rena with a little encouragement (and spit).
I don't know why the venturi works better maybe the flow is superior because of the simpler design of the venturi. Also, If I dissconect the CO2 from the reactor water comes out. If I dissconect the CO2 from the venturi there's no water coming out because the Venturi is pulling _in_?


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

The venturi works via a narrowing in the pipe which forces the water to flow faster (also puts back pressure on pump), creating a vacuum at the point where the CO2 is injected. The fast flowing water helps break up the CO2 bubbles. The From some pictures I've seen, it looks like the Mezzei venturi has some internal fins to aide in the breaking up of the CO2 bubbles. 

I'm not able to get the CO2 where I want it in my tank with 2 AM 1000's, so I picked up a Kent Venturi for like $16. It definitely got my CO2 levels lower than the AM 1000, but also slowed down the outflow from my cannister, and gave me lots of CO2 Mist which is good for the plants, but I am not crazy about.
One other thing I noticed is that it makes a little "psst" sound on the CO2 bubbles (like a guy in an alley trying to get your attention to sell you a watch, or home theater equipment).


Rhinoman, have noticed any water back flowing into the CO2 line when the CO2 is off? Over night, water backs up into the line for an inch or two, but then stops. I have a brass clippard check valve on the CO2 line, and all I can think of is gas compression in the wider diameter hose to feed the CO2.


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

Ya, about an inch for me too. Wierd. If I dissconect it though no water comes out. Just suction.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

OK, glad It's not just my setup. 

Drove me crazy for 2 days.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

They run $34 from ryanherco.com (584C). The 1/2" fits the eheim 5/8" tubing, so order the "C" model.

http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm

tazcrash69, grab a mazzei. They work completely different than the kent venturi's. Finer mist (barely visible) and less pressure loss.

I could see how the reactor might not work if it's hooked up incorrectly. It should be connected so that the Co2 flows to the top and so that the bubbles are completely absorbed. If the bubbles come out with too much flow then I guess it would be less efficient.

Could everyone start listing the canister filter and which model Mazzei they are using so I can create a graph for sizing the mazzei's?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

http://www.mazzei.net/injector_perf.htm


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

IUnknown, do you know if the ribbed tubing on Fluvals can attach to these things?


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> Could everyone start listing the canister filter and which model Mazzei they are using so I can create a graph for sizing the mazzei's?


Couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you for the direction here. I need to do something about this water fall of a reactor soon. I'd like to try this method.


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## Asty (Mar 12, 2007)

I am currently using the venturi inlet on the output control of my Filstar to do CO2 injection, while I build my Rex Reactor (having some problems with leakage).

Its performance improved when I added an extra length of tube between it and the spray bar part...but that may have just been me winning the fight by turning my Emperors off and on lately. 

Anyway...what is the difference between that venturi and this one perfomance-wise, do you think?


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## distrbd (Feb 17, 2006)

I can't see why we can't make this MAZZEI injectors ourselves? from what it looks on the outside it's just two tubes with narrowed ends ,and the third co2 tube could be replaced with a Clippard check valve.
If the inside is made of fins,then even that could be done.


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

Rena XP3 = 3/4" Mezzei venturi (nice tight fit).


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Early trials and posts,
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/21735-diy-line-micro-bubbler-6.html?highlight=Mazzei

epicfish: The mazzei's come with two MNPT's on either end (male threaded adapter). You then look up a fitting with a female thread and a insert adapter (threaded adapter) to attach the fluval hose to. PM me what you are planning to order and I can double check it. Send filter model, injector model, eheim hose size equivalents, and ryan herco fitting numbers. You can look at the post above for examples. Maybe some people are connecting the thread fitting directly to the hose? Then I could see using a 3/4" model for a 5/8" eheim tub?

Asty: the kent marine injectors? the machining on them is sloppy. The holes in the injector are too big and they just break up the bubbles.

distrbd: The machining is very precise to get the venturi action to work.

Rhinoman: which model Mazzei are you using. They have 584, etc..


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

My 3/4" Mazzei has barbed ends. I just spit on the venturi and shoved it in the XP3 tubing. I also made my own intake fo the XP3 as the intake that it came with stuck out against my black backround like a sore thumb! It came out so good I'm going to make another for my Fluval FX5 (can't stand the light grey tubing end).


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Er? Greg says it's an MPT, and Rhinoman says it's barbed...which is it? 

Ryan Herco doesn't like to pick up their phones on Saturdays. =P

The tubing on my Fluval is 14mm, or 5/8"...and the Mazzeis only come in 1/2", 3/4", or 1".

If they come in threaded, then I can get a 1/2" FNPT x 5/8" barbed fitting somewhere, but if it's barbed, I'm not sure how I can adapt it to 5/8" tubing nicely without doing this: Mazzei -> 1/2" barb -> 1/2" tubing -> 1/2"-to-5/8" adapter -> 5/8" tubing. Can I go straight from the 1/2" barb to the 1/2"-to-5/8" adapter? Doubt it since I dont think it'll give it a good seal that way.

If it's 1/2" barbed, I can get an 1/2" FNPT x 5/8" hose adapter here: http://www.thogus.com/adapters.htm (bottom right)...Ryan Herco is a distributor of Thogus, so hopefully they can order in an adapter for me.

My Fluval 404 has a flow rate of 317gph, and this is for a 40 gallon breeder tank, 36" long, so I hope it'll be enough flow to run in-line without an accessory pump.


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

From Aquatic Eco-Systems site:
V584 Mazzei Venturi Injectors, 3/4" Barb, 3 gpm, 4 cfh 
In Stock $54.00 
4+ $48.55 
They're not cheap but they have a lot of hard-to-find stuff.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Thanks for the info.

584 = 3/4"
584C = 1/2"

So I'll get the 584C w/ the 1/2" FNPT to 5/8" barbed connector and use hose clamps.


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## distrbd (Feb 17, 2006)

I didn't know you could buy these injectors on Ebay at a resonable price:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/1-2-MPT-Mazzei-i...ryZ46310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


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## Asty (Mar 12, 2007)

No no no....on the Rena Filstar XP line, they come with a Venturi port kinda like the ones on some powerheads. It is located on the piece for the output side that also controls the output flow. The whole piece is optional.

It is partly the reason I bought the XP2, just to try out this venturi thingee.

So...my CO2 for now flows into that. I can get my drop checker to turn green with 5dKH water in my 90 gallon by running just over 1 bps right now using it. I get a very fine and light spray of bubbles out the bar ports - maybe one tiny bubble from each randomly at 1 a second.

It goes output hose -> output control w/ venturi -> straight extension bar -> 90deg curve -> horizontal spray bar with outlets pointed forward/down located about 60% down on the back wall in the middle (left to right). Drop checker is located in the extreme front corner, 4" from the top. (Man, a picture would have been easier, heh). Only thing else I did was enlarge the spray bar holes.

If I turn the Emperors off, the drop checker goes even lighter green...possibly a bit yellow if I would stop fooling with things.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

Ok now your teasing me. But really have there been some before and after full on results? I know Tom! I heard you. 

I'm going to have to try this for myself.

I realy appriciate the candor in this thread as it helps a great deal with my next plan fo the 55.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

You know the one thing I don't really get is if CO2 is saturated at say 40 ppm throughout the water column - why oh why is a Massei going to push more gas onto the plants. Now Iunknown's tank has always been pretty amazing. But I do wonder what is so bad with a traditional reactor?
I'll add this caveat, I run my reactor down low on a lower outflow (2nd filter). Maybe if it was coursing through a spraybar, I might see things differently. But I get fast pH changes with a traditional Hoftizier reactor.


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## fluff34567 (Nov 15, 2005)

distrbd said:


> I didn't know you could buy these injectors on Ebay at a resonable price:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.ca/1-2-MPT-Mazzei-i...ryZ46310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem


but the shipping is a joke!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-MPT-Mazzei-...ryZ46310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

$40 w/ $5.72 shipping.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

I might just give the Mazzei a shot. 

Just curious if I would be better off going for the 3/4" or the 1/2" when running off of a 2026? 

I'm guessing the 3/4 will give less restriction, but probably the 1/2 will have more suction making smaller bubbles? 

Any Ideas?


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

tazcrash69 said:


> I might just give the Mazzei a shot.
> 
> Just curious if I would be better off going for the 3/4" or the 1/2" when running off of a 2026?
> 
> ...


I think IDunknown (Greg) went with the 1/2" unit using a 2224. that's at 150+- GPH. 2026 is around 235GPH. On another thread he is referencing emails from the Mazzei engineer.

Venture to guess that there are two different fitting size for the same venturi.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

The Mazzei model 584 has 3/4" connections while the 584C model has 1/2" connections...overall, it's the same venturi.


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## fluff34567 (Nov 15, 2005)

epicfish said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/1-2-MPT-Mazzei-...ryZ46310QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem
> 
> $40 w/ $5.72 shipping.


ok if u are in the US - anywhere else and the charges are stupid


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

fluff34567 said:


> ok if u are in the US - anywhere else and the charges are stupid


...because they're being shipped from the US? Heh. If I was to buy a product from Switzerland, I'm sure shipping charges to the US would be outlandish too!


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Rhinoman: I guess if you buy them from aquatic eco systems they come pre-assembled with the barbed fittings. I guess that is why they are an extra $10, but that's pretty convenient as the fittings are a pain to find.

epicfish: so depends where you buy it from. Ryan herco.com sells them without the fittings attached. Use a couple of zip ties and no problem even if you end up with a 1/2" barb.

Betowess: search for Co2 mist threads. The idea is that the Co2 gas landing on the plants actually provides more Co2 than the Co2 saturated in the water. I wasn't convinced at first, but if you go through those long post you might get sold on the idea.

"I'm guessing the 3/4 will give less restriction, but probably the 1/2 will have more suction making smaller bubbles? "

It depends on what the canister filter is using for tubing. If it is using the eheim standard 14/16mm (or 5/8") then use the 1/2" because the restriction is the hole inside of the venturi (which is the same for both the 1/2" and 3/4"), and buying reducing fittings would be a pain and cause fitting losses.


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## Rhinoman (Jun 6, 2006)

Betowess said:


> You know the one thing I don't really get is if CO2 is saturated at say 40 ppm throughout the water column - why oh why is a Massei going to push more gas onto the plants. Now Iunknown's tank has always been pretty amazing. But I do wonder what is so bad with a traditional reactor?
> I'll add this caveat, I run my reactor down low on a lower outflow (2nd filter). Maybe if it was coursing through a spraybar, I might see things differently. But I get fast pH changes with a traditional Hoftizier reactor.


I'm not saying it puts more CO2 into the water it's just more efficient. I use less CO2 because less is lost during injection. Also the PH drops faster now that I have the venturi than it did with a reactor, so.....


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

tefsom85: wikipedia has some good information on how venturi's work. I think you are both right and wrong. You have to have the restriction big enough so that the pump can overcome the restriction, but not too big so that the venturi is not effective. The venturi works from a large diameter decreasing to a small diameter and then back to a large. The increase in velocity creates negative pressure that draws Co2 from the third opening. Think of it like a garden hose. You fill up a bucket for say 1 minute and fill it up to the top. You then put your finger on the hose so that 1/2" the diameter is plugged up. The flow in the water is going to come out at a velocity that is twice as fast, so the bucket is still going to get filled up in 1 minute. Now if you had enough backpressure to overcome the pressure of the system you would get a decrease in water flow (similar to the weak pumps we are using).

So I wouldn't worry too much about how these venturi's effect the flow unless we are sizing the wrong venturi's. Since our pumps can barely handle any backpressure, we need to find the restriction sizes that work with certain filters (available pressure's created by the pumps). But once we find those combinations, then the venturi's are engineered to create very little friction loss (flow loss).

I'll measure them when I get them in the mail next week for you..

Rhinoman: I think it is going to be different depending on how people have things setup. My reactor was the most efficient. All of the Co2 was dissolved before it entered my tank. With the venturi I have Co2 floating to the top of the tank (wasted), but you get the benefit of a glass diffuser. That is, that the undissolved Co2 (mist) gets pushed around the tank and the plants are able to utilize the Co2 gas straight from the bubble. Think of it as growing aquatic plants in a Co2 air chamber. If you look at that Co2 spring video I posted earlier, we are mimicking mother nature. Natural springs have the same thing going on, water blasted with Co2 bubbles that the plants can utilize directly.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Greg, so the Mazzei engineers got back to you and said the 584/C would be the best for our applications? If so, I'll go order one pretty soon.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

IUnknown said:


> "I'm guessing the 3/4 will give less restriction, but probably the 1/2 will have more suction making smaller bubbles? "
> 
> It depends on what the canister filter is using for tubing. If it is using the eheim standard 14/16mm (or 5/8") then use the 1/2" because the restriction is the hole inside of the venturi (which is the same for both the 1/2" and 3/4"), and buying reducing fittings would be a pain and cause fitting losses.


thanks, Yea this would be on an Eheim with the 14/16.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Epic: this was the email I got from Mazzei. I think you should be good if you get the 584.



> This pump is below our testing point of 5 psi of inlet pressure. Depending on you backpressure, which I'm assuming is low if you have the 287 working at 2 psi inlet pressure, you could possibly use a 584. Because this is below our testing points I can not tell you where exactly this will work but somewhere around 400 l/hr at 200-250 mbar is my assumption. You can get this model in either 3/4" (584) or 1/2" (584-C). If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Greg, I'm thinking of running the venturi with a pump all by itself. The pump is rated for 260gph, will that be enough/too much for the venturi?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

If you already have the pump, give it a try. I didn't have to much luck with the pumps I tried out, they didn't deal with the backpressure very well. But maybe it was cause I was using the smaller model Mazzei, can't remember.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Howdy ya'll, first post but I've been lurking around here for a week or so....

EPICFISH...can you give us an update on where you are at?

Did you end up buying the 584C, with barbed ends, and it fit fine/easy on the ribbed hosing of your Fluval?

Have you noticed any decline in the effectiveness of your filter I guess is the big question!? Does it significantly reduce water flow/movement from the return hose? I get fairly good water flow from my return thru the tank and I don't think I want to lose this...

I've got a 55g bow front, 2.4w/g, a Fluval 305 (260gph), and I just ordered "the best" CO2 setup and Milwaukee SMS ph controller. I did NOT buy a diffuser or reactor yet, b/c I really don't want more junk in the tank, and I'm really intrigued by the Mazzei venturi setup, not so much for the 'optimal delivery' but just for the 'clean-ness' of the setup. (I'm not really going for a jungle look, so I don't have the 'cover' to hide a ton of parts)

I think until I decide about the Venturi, I'm just going to stick the end of the CO2 hose into the return hose, same principal as sticking the tube into a power-head, correct?? Anyone recommend NOT doing this?

From everything I've read from IUnknown, it seems that a canister filter setup is the ideal pump for the venturi system, and it should not affect the filtration system too much, if at all. But...it doesn't seem there are too many people with Fluvals or Eheims yet that have really done the Mazzei venturi on the return side to give feedback on this yet? If worst case scenario, I could always just replace the return side hosing if this doesn't work out, but then I'd be out $55 or so....

I guess, since I'm planning on just sticking the CO2 into the return hose (once it goes over the wall and down into the water is where I'll make a tiny hole and insert the co2), I guess that is "clean" enough of a setup, but, am I going to just be wasting my co2 setup on a totally inefficient delivery method, and I definitely should swap to the Venturi is 1st question. Does the non-buoyant 'micro' bubbles from the venturi make everything go pearly like everyone was hoping/expecting of this setup? (I realize depends on nutrients/lighting as well, but lets assume those are setup correctly)

The 2nd question is has anyone done this with the fluval, and is there any more feedback on it (even though IUnknown has made a great argument for the system)


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Iunknown or Epicfish you around?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Putting it on the intake would be better. You risk air-locking your filter though, but I've done it before for a few months with no problem since my filter has great flow and the bubbles are chopped up before they accumulate to become a problem.

I have the 584C with the ribbed tubing and it's working OK now. I used hose clamps from Home Depot to secure the tubing to the barbed connectors on the injector and it's pretty snug. I don't think the change between my DIY Gomer reactor and this venturi is very very significant, however. But then again, maybe I should've bought one with a larger diameter to have more microbubbles in the tank. But I like the look of crystal clear water myself.

For ~$55, I might be so-so on buying another one if I had a choice.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I use a Rio 692 GPH pump on a 3/4" mazzi AES valve, running directly into a return pump that travels 16 ft, going through mech, UV filters.

I redid the CO2 system last weekend on the 1600 gallon tank.
The pH drop was recorded for a 30-40 minute range using fresh calibrated new pH probe at 4 locations in the tank and at different depths to measure localization pockets etc.

This tank also has 4 new Rhinox 5000's as well that where turned on/off to see which method was dropping the pH in the dissolved form.

Note, the venturi's travel so far so it's completely dissolved by the time it comes out the spray bars along to bottom and side corners.

The disc had very little effect, even at rather high flow rates and flow blasting the mist directly into particular plant beds. Using the lok line tubing, we can direct the mist pretty much anywhere we desire for this system.

The plants pearl quickly with a 1000w MH light over them so responses are fast.

I noted as did everyone working on the tank the mist definitely produced lots of pearling.....even though there was little decline in pH.

This suggest that CO2 mist rather than dissolved CO2 was affecting plant growth dramatically.

We placed a pH probe into this area, again, perhaps a .2-.4 pH drop yet similar pearling occurred.

By having both systems available, having various directional flow capabilities, several pH probes, and large system, I'm pretty well equiped to look at the dynamics here.

I recently installed an O2 controller that has logging functions over time.
That way we can measure the pearling directly.

Ideally we would have 4 or so O2 probes, but we only have one in a well mixed region. For smaller tanks, one is fine.

I think given the speed of the pH drop using the venturi, regardless of CO2, is all the evidence one might need to see that it is a highly effective method.

The lack of pH decline yet good pearling locally also suggest strong evidence of the CO2 mist effect.

**Now I think there maybe a boundary layer break up surrounding the leaves that might be playing a large role here also due to the bubbles, therefore adding aeration and adding CO2 dissolved would be a simple test to address and isolate that issue.**

While the aeration will degas some CO2, simply adding more through a dissolving reactor/venturi ought to be able to address that issue.

I already showed that the CO2 mist method itself works via increased the O2 levels, thus also the plants growth. Since growth is a function of O2 production.

I used a DO meter and maintained the same CO2 levels dissolved for both systems but added CO2 mist to one. I had about 20-40% differences in O2 levels in the CO2 mist. I'd initially speculated the CO2 gas diffused faster, that might be true still. 

I have not come up with a method to rule whether the plant gets gas or dissolved CO2. That one is toughy. 14CO2 will not tell you either, so even at the lab I'd have trouble with this pickle.

Oddly, none of the hobby critics pointed out the boundary layer issues with the bubbles:icon_roll 

Nor would they have come up with a method to address it and answer that question either I'd suspect. Doubt is easy to spread, solutions and testing are rare. IUNKOWN has done a lot with venturis and I think folks owe him a lot of credit for tenacity. 

Anyway, I have more test yet to do, that takes time and you have to go back and forth several times to make sure what you see is due to that, then ask other folks to see if they note the same observations, does the method and test seem reasonable etc. 

But it's fairly easy to do and I make sure to leave the methods to address such issues out there for other folks to try out, heck, do not believe me, try it yourself and see. Give it a fair chance. I'm not selling you anything or something like some folks asking you to try something out.:angel: 
hehe

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

epicfish said:


> Putting it on the intake would be better. You risk air-locking your filter though, but I've done it before for a few months with no problem since my filter has great flow and the bubbles are chopped up before they accumulate to become a problem.


I think noise is another issue when adding gas to the intake.
A thin fine stream of bubbles will not make much noise and give more even distribution.

But you also dissolve more CO2 into solution.
Some is fine, but controlling the balance between that and the mist is another issue.

I've been using both methods , a disc and a venturi for 6 months on that 1600 gal client tank.

The venturi definitely **** that pH down very fast vs the disc/mist.

Now I'm speculating here, but that might be why ADA can use about 15-20ppm of CO2 and still have similar affects as folks dissolving 30ppm or more. 

Still, those KH and pH levels do not add up in any possible way I am aware even with this issue helping.

But the time of day the measures where taken(KH/pH), say 30 minutes after the lights come or right then, then later on the CO2 is measured etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

EpicFish...

Did you buy the 584C from RyanHerco w/ the 1/2" barb fittings? Or the AES w/ the 3/4 barb fittings? 
(http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/7963)

I believe that we probably have the same Fluval ribbed tubing, and its 17mm I "think" I'm trying to verify, so wouldn't the 3/4" barbs be better (and still use zip ties)?

Really, I just don't want more junk in the tank, so its not so much a matter of extreme efficiency, as much as it is an easy way to splice into my Fluval hosing, but, being the current possible most efficient delivery doesn't hurt!


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Here's a nice list of hose sizes for canisters EXCEPT Fluvals:
http://www.petsolutions.com/Info.aspx?id=59

Ok...so I think these two links verify that my hosing is 17mm for the 305. But, one link says that is the equivalent of 3/4", but I think technically 17mm is right in between 5/8" and 3/4", so that's why I'm confused as to buy the 584C from Herco w/ 5/8" barbs or the AES w/ 3/4" barbs!!

# 16mm = 5/8 inch
# 17mm = almost 11/16 inch
# 18mm = just over 11/16 inch
# 19mm = 3/4 inch 

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/214727/product.web
http://www.aquaticlifeaquariums.com.au/default.html?lang=en-uk&target=d439.html


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Epicfish ya around?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

My ribbed tubing for the Fluval 404 is 14mm, or 1/2".


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> I redid the CO2 system last weekend on the 1600 gallon tank.
> The pH drop was recorded for a 30-40 minute range using fresh calibrated new pH probe at 4 locations in the tank and at different depths to measure localization pockets etc.
> 
> This tank also has 4 new Rhinox 5000's as well that where turned on/off to see which method was dropping the pH in the dissolved form.
> ...


Tom, I kinda selectively quoted your post, but overall, for the average planted tank enthusiast with either of two options: Mazzei venturi injector or Rhinox ceramic diffuser, which would be the best option?

The Mazzei inject can give near 100% CO2 dissolution rates while the Rhinox can provide CO2 mist. If the diffuser is placed underneath a filter outflow, the mist can be blown around the tank. So given these two options, which, in your opinion, would be best for a planted tank up to ~120-180 gallons? I'm not talking about behemoth tanks that are 1,600 gallons.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Epic, not to call you out, but both of these product listings (see 2 links below) and others I've seen say the hoses on the 404 are 17mm, not 14mm...so, which one did you buy, the "5/8 barbs" from Herco or the "3/4 barbs" AES model??

http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet/prod/214727/product.web
http://www.aquaticlifeaquariums.com....rget=d439.html


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

The 2nd link doesn't work. Er, let me check the one I got.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Here's that 2nd link again...its not very easy to find good info on the Fluvals, you can understand why I'm confused which size barb to buy...was wondering if you got the Herco w/ 5/8 or AES w/ 3/4 barbs...

http://www.aquaticlifeaquariums.com.au/default.html?lang=en-uk&target=d439.html


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Then I went with the 5/8" fittings.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Epic, Thanks Much


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Epicfish...lol, I just realized I confused myself, so I wasn't asking the correct question:

The RyanHerco does *NOT* come with barbed fittings, so, what did you do, just put the ribbed hose right onto the male threads? Or did you buy some adaptors? Did you get the 584 w/ 3/4" male threads or 584C w/ 1/2 male threads?


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

*Fluval 304 305 404 405 venturi mazzei hose ribbed change*

Hey...FINALLY got around to doing the Venturi addition, had it on for about a week now...nice clean look with no "junk" inside the tank was my main priority, and jury is still out if more pearling will occur, tentatively I think that it does...

Before now I had just put the co2 line into the "intake" (going into the cannister from the tank) hosing, and let the impeller smash up the CO2 and distribute it....Really, was sort of "micro" bubbles as is, but I didn't like the CO2 hose going into the tank for aesthetic reasons. However, there are definitely micro "bubbles" of Co2 in the tank now, which doesn't really bother me but might bug you...

I ordered the 584C: (the airline barb has a built in check valve)
http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm
I ordered two barb fittings, you can get two of either of these, I had one of each for some crazy reason:
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/va...oduct_id=14400&variant_id=62192&cookie_test=1
or
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI..._inch_FPT_x_1_2_inch_Insert_hose~vendor~.html
(the grey one has longer barbs...)

If you have a Fluval and want to know how to do a hose modification, see here (I have a 305, should be the same* 5/8" I.D. *vinyl hose for 304, 404, 305, 405...the 100 & 200 series Fluvals, same concept different size) You will want to build most of the unit "not" attached to the cannister hose since when wiggling the hose onto the barbs you don't want it to become sideways and have your airline getting "crimped" into the wall b/c its sticking in the wrong direction...another lesson learned the long way by yours truly)
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/e...ations-changing-ribbed-hosing.html#post452945

The HARDEST dang part was getting the CO2 vinyl tubing to fit on the barb on the Venturi...not sure if I was supposed to have a adaptor...had to use a lighter to "soften up" the end of the hose, and basically bend my thumb nails backwards pulling the hose onto the barb. Yikes...

On the barbs for the hose, I put on a hose clamp for good measure, although the barbs are pretty tight...but wouldn't want to come home to 55g on the floor Also, used teflon/plumbers tape on the barb to venturi threaded connection to prevent leaks (trust me, the first time I didn't use plumbers tape b/c I couldn't find it late at night, I had to undo it all and apply teflon b/c very small water leak w/o it)

Here is a pic of the finished project!









Here is a pic of the micro bubbles coming from the "return" of the fluval:









THANKS FOR ALL OF YOUR HELP AND ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS Epic and Greg (Iunknown)!


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Very nice work indeed. 

I use boiling water to get the vinyl tubing to loosen up a bit before trying to slide it onto any barbs.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Good idea Epic (boiling water)...most likely safer than the lighter as well lol....


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Epicfish, he's got mist and no Rhinox is needed.
you can have both and adjust the flow through rates in a loop on the return and also add more length and another longer loop if you so desire for mist free CO2 venturi as well.

There are many unexplored options for many here. I have the dual ability for either. But like the mist myself.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Gotcha...just make the mist flow thru the return for longer before being dumped pumped into the tank. Not sure how much of a loop I can add before maxing out the pump on my Fluval 305, I probably won't mess with it, I don't really mind the mist.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Does anyone else w/ a Venturi have a problem with the "psssting" noise? At first it wasn't there, but now its a constant "psssst" from the venturi, as this is in my office its not making me happy....


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

When I tried the Kent Venturi I had the same exact noise. Actually made the Mrs call me up thinking something was wrong with the tank. 
For me it was only an issue for 1 hour before the lights came on. 
In a quiet office, yea, I think it would get to me.


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

I guess there's not really much to do to "fix" it besides get used to it eh?


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## Nbot (Apr 15, 2007)

Just thought I'd throw a quick update here b/c I've been meaning to and someone just asked me if I was still having the noise problem...

Hi,
Well, its a funny thing...short answer is no, long answer is TBD. After I made that post, on the next water change, the noise went away for some reason (cleared air out of the line? idk) Then it came back 1-2 weeks later?....so, I put a "t" joint on the line to the venturi from the Co2, and let the T side just open to the air in the room...it did a neat effect of not only eliminating the noise (which seemed to be b/c it was "pulling" the gas faster then it was being delivered??) but also adding O2 to the tank, and I could take out the air stone I ran at night (some fish seemed to be low on O2 a while ago in the morning). I really liked this setup, it didn't seem to be eating up the CO2 (per the gauge on the tank) too much either...but, then I noticed that it really slowed down the Fluval's flow, too much I thought. So, I took the T out of the line, and now, guess what. No noise again. Not really sure of the problem. But, I am planning on putting another pump inline (and unplugging the cannister pump and removing the impeller) so that I can run the venturi open to air b/c I like the added O2 for fish health (just in case), but, no noise for now and fish seem to be okay, and not sure when I'll experiment w/ the other pump. Really, I like the venturi and the open-T b/c I really like minimal junk in the tank approach. The venturi will give you micro bubbles all over, which, doesn't bother me at all, but some folks it might. I just like the less junk in the tank more than I mind the micro bubbles.


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## Kayakbabe (Sep 4, 2005)

*Save the solenoid*

I'm not happy with my reactor setup and all these posting about the mazzei venturi really has me thinking. 

It seems simpler to just put it on a powerhead and drop it in the tank.

But, I love the idea of it being outside of the tank (and hidden) in-line with all the other stuff.

But irregardless of whether the venturi is plumbed into the tank filter system outflow or just dropped in the tank...

Here's my question I haven't puzzled out from all the posting I've read... 

If i put the ventri in the cannister outflow and thus the venturi is always sucking (because my cannister runs 24/7) will the pressure of that suction cause damage to my co2 system solenoid? The co2 feed is Ph controlled, so the solenoid shuts off the gas flow frequently. 

I'm not against more technical geek equipment (I'm a co2 injected planted tank junkie after all) like having the solenoid also controlling an electrostatic valve to divert around the venturi when not needed... but having to add that also violates my k.i.s.s. principle mantra. The solenoid is designed to prevent flow in one direction.. so I"m pretty sure suction on it from the 'other side' will not be a good thing for it. 

Any thoughts on this and how to 'save' the solenoid?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

A solenoid is designed to work with pressures far exceeding what our pumps flow can generate with a mazzei so you have nothing to worry about.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Here is a pic of Mazzei 384P showing how small the inner hole is. While this might not be ideal for a canister filter the performance of the 1/2" model is great with a dedicated or good system pump. It breaks up Co2 to a very fine mist and not big diffuser like bubbles 










Mazzei Loop


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

*Vinyl tube collapsing under 384P Mazzei suction*

When I had this with a 300GPH low head pump it was never this bad but after creating a loop and using my main system pump which has good head and now had the ability to pump much more water through the Mazzei the tube has almost totally collapsed. I must mention the performance of the ½" Mazzei is *absolutely ridiculous* with a loop setup and *good pressure water flow going through* I also think the very tiny hole has a lot to do with the performance too and I remember TBARR suggesting that a smaller inlet orifice would increase performance.










BTW I actually have *tons* of super tiny mist...can you see em? I thought so :hihi:

I am not running co2 24x7 anymore like I used to and before having Mazzei on a loop with a 300gph low head pump it took 3hrs to get limegreen green. The color shown is with the new loop setup after 2hrs and its on its way to yellow and I had to adjust Co2 to prevent this. This is my 90gal open sump, I don't DIY KH but use Billionz lab prep'd solution instead for accuracy reasons and to eliminate guesswork.

I should have jumped on the Mazzei bandwagon a while ago *nothing truly compares to it * as long as you have *good pressure flow*

I need to find a more rigid tubing...any suggestions anyone?


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

LOL
That is awesome.

I should get one for diffusing CO2 sometime.

You should try Rex Grigg's tubing, it is very thick and very good.


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## Kayakbabe (Sep 4, 2005)

Is that PVC tubing? I know there are some co2/corrosion resistant PVC tubing that is thick walled available.

Is your 300 gph pump driving the whole mess or just your venturi with co2?

I'm thinking I don't mind having one more water intake and outlet esp since I"ve got a lot of tall stems in the background now.. and just have the pump only connected to run the venturi. But I know it's possible to over power the venturi too. 
I'm tried of the little Tunze pumps that I've been using getting eaten up by the CO2 and squealing horribly loud about once am month... it's time to do something different. This sounds like the ticket.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

tropicalfish said:


> LOL
> That is awesome.
> 
> I should get one for diffusing CO2 sometime.
> ...


I'm gonna reach out to him tomorrow regarding his tubing and thx for the heads up!




kayakbabe said:


> Is that pvc tubing? I know there are some co2/corrosion resisitenat pvc tubing that is thick walled available.
> 
> Is your 300 ghp pump driving the whole mess or just your venturi with co2?


The tube being used now is vinyl not exactly flimsy but under suction pressure it is.

I used to have a 300gph dedicated pump driving the Mazzei and performance was good. However once I created a loop using my system pump which is fairly descent performance with 1100gph & 28ft head this thing went *nuts*  under the increased flow I was able to force through it, it literally disintegrates the co2 into the very tiny mist. This can easily provide very good co2 to a 300+gal tank using a good pump. 



> I'm thinking I don't mind having one more water intake and outlet esp since I"ve got a lot of tall stems in the background now.. and just have the pump only connected to run the venturi. But I know it's possible to over power the venturi too.


Just put a ball valve before the Mazzei to adjust flow as needed, its better to have more than to have too little.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Would you use the 384 Mazzei with the xP2 filter? The xP2 is rated at 160 gph with the media installed?

Would you use or not use a bypass loop?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Would you use the 384 Mazzei with the xP2 filter? The xP2 is rated at 160 gph with the media installed?


I would suggest a TBarr reactor instead because that CAN will not handle the increased pressures of the water going through the Mazzei well and your 162gph now becomes 80+gph maybe even less. I am guessing that figure based on my experience with my 300gph low head pump and how its flow was reduced.



> Would you use or not use a bypass loop?


For a low flow setup a loop isn't necessary, however when you have good flow and good head the loop is a must to benefit from what the Mazzei can do.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Which particlar Mazzei are you using? You mention 1/2", but you didn't mention the model. 287, 384, 484, 584-C ?
http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm

The xP2 is rated at 300 gph w/o media and 160 gph with media.

I mention this because I might of confused things a bit by only mentioning the rated flow with media.

I know of the Barr venturi that you're mentioning. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/52992-all-misting-fans-out-there.html
http://www.barrreport.com/articles/3444-dual-venturi-diy-external-co2-reactor.html


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Which particlar Mazzei are you using? You mention 1/2", but you didn't mention the model. 384, 584-C ?


I am using the the # 384 for 2 reasons:
1) The Mazzei excels once the *inlet comes under greater pressure than the outlet* so I choose the 384 because I wanted to be able to put the inlet under much higher pressures without using lots more water as other models require. 

2) I have read on barreport.com that the smaller the injection orifice the better the performance due to the fact that smaller blips of Co2 gets mixed into the water each time so it gets gets broken up and dissolved more efficiently.



> The xP2 is rated at 300 gph w/o media and 160 gph with media.
> 
> I mention this because I might of confused things a bit by only mentioning the rated flow with media.


Yes the actual flow was the correct number to present as the overall output will be useless as it is already being reduced because of the filter media as well as the pump coming under head pressures due to this. 



> I know of the Barr venturi that you're mentioning. http://www.barrreport.com/articles/3...2-reactor.html


Yes thats the one. It's an excellent reactor and very efficient at what it does and way better than any standard reactor.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Thanks a bunch, mrkookum!

I saw your pic of the 384.

I wonder if the 287 will work with the xP2? It's Motive Flow GPM and Water Suction GPH is about 1/3 of the 384.
specs: http://www.mazzei.net/tables/injector_perf_table_US.pdf
1/2" MNPT - 3/16" hose shank - $24.50 http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/25V_page580.pdf

I haven't read the latest posts about the Barr venturi.

I'm working on two projects. One is a 20g long with the xP2 and the other is a 37g with an Eheim 2028 and AM 1000 Reactor. These are new aquariums and parts for new setups. I haven't decided if I want to use a venturi, reactor or diffuser with the 20g long.

Left C


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Left C said:


> Thanks a bunch, mrkookum!
> 
> I saw your pic of the 384.
> 
> ...


I would stick with the 384 as bare minimum

You might want to also remember if it does work out this will be sure overkill for a 20 gallon.



> I haven't read the latest posts about the Barr venturi.
> 
> I'm working on two projects. One is a 20g long with the xP2 and the other is a 37g with an Eheim 2028 and AM 1000 Reactor. These are new aquariums and parts for new setups. I haven't decided if I want to use a venturi, reactor or diffuser with the 20g long.


On the AM1000 I have noticed where a few guys have made his venturi mods to this reactor and all say the performance has increased.


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## ganjero (Aug 4, 2005)

what size of mazzei injector do you if you are using a FX5 filter?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Wow, there's a lot of info about the Mazzei. I just spent the last 5 hours reading some of them plus rereading the Barr venturi thread.

I read about the venturi loop with the AM 1000 that you are mentioning. It sure sounds like a very good mod to do. 

I think that I understand what you mean about the Mazzei being overkill for a 20g. Some people are adding extra pumps along with their cannisters to run it, etc. and they are being used with larger aquariums. I believe that I should of read more before I started asking questions.

My initial thoughts about the Mazzei may of been wrong. I was thinking that the xP2 is a little overkill for a 20g and the reduced flow produced by the 384 or the 584-C Mazzei would bring it down to about right. I'm still a little confused though. 

Like you mentioned earlier, the Barr reactor may be a better choice in my case.

Thanks for your time and thoughts, mrkookm.

Left C


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

In less than an hour, actually 40 minutes, the pH drops about 1.2 pH units in a large 1600 gallon tank at a stable flow rate and sits there. This is with 2 x 3/4" Venturis. About 1200gph are running through them.

You can crank the disc up really high and it takes several hours to do the same, they hardly do much impact to pH comparatively.

In smaller systems, with shorter returns etc, the venturis are really likely to cause a lot of misting, so a loop with flow control, and some options to control it is wise.

You may not like the mist

Current is a prime issue for CO2 and for mist, as well as the ADA style of diffusion.

Things can be all stable and equal, but if current declines due to plant over growth, I can induce BBA and Cladophora. I'm on my 3 rd repeat with this issue alone.

So when folks claim that everything is equal, they have not changed anything etc, *every tank is changing through time with respect to plant biomass and current.*

Having measured it, it's extremely important.
The same is true here.

The gas build up lowers the efficacy of the Reactors also. Purging it allows better flow and mixing. Venturis never have this issue nor do misting disc.

But, misting disc need cleaned, and need place inside the tank, venturis do not.

So, you get the best of each without having anything inside the tank.

Note, flow control of Mazzei venturis is dramatic between the turns, be very careful in measuring flow rates and adjusting things!

Needle valves might be able to control the rates well, but the turns between one setting and another are dramatic, adjust very very slowly!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

mrkookm said:


> I'm gonna reach out to him tomorrow regarding his tubing and thx for the heads up!
> The tube being used now is vinyl not exactly flimsy but under suction pressure it is.


FWIW, here is a comparison from regular silcone tubing to the tubing Rex is selling:









It didn't crush when I had it on a Kent venturi (not a Mazzei) doubt it will crush.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> FWIW, here is a comparison from regular silcone tubing to the tubing Rex is selling:


Thanks for the pics it is very thick! I did however replace the tube that same night of the post with a thicker tube that I found in my bag of tricks that I totally forgot I had. I had purchased a metering pump a few months back which came with a suction line to be used for med pressure applications and thick enough to withstand the Mazzei suction pressure. Even though it is .5mm thicker it is made more heavy duty. A similar vinyl tube can also be found at the HD listed as a 1/4" vinyl, they make 2 kinds a thicker and a thinner one and the thicker one closely matches the suction tubing I have. 

The issue I was faced with was trying to figure out how I would get this connected to my bubble counter but after a few minutes looking at it and through my parts drawer I came up with this and is it working great. No more funny tube business  





































No more collapsing under suction pressure


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2008)

ganjero said:


> what size of mazzei injector do you if you are using a FX5 filter?


I am wondering the same thing as I have a fx5 on a 55 gallon and would like to do this alot more then using the reactor. So would anyone know what size would be best for a fx5?

Also sorry for bringing back a old thread :icon_redf


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