# More filtration/water movement = bad for planted tanks?



## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

I thought surface agitation was the main oxygenator, so lets say a filter output that created a lot of surface agitation (whether the water output had a high drop into the tank=splashing, or if the output was positioned closer to the water surface and had enough flow power to cause a lot of surface agitation) vs the same filter output, but the output was under the water, dispersing under the water surface causing minimal surface agitation. So the more surface agitation the more dissolved oxygen in the water, also in turn more chance to off-gas CO2, which is why in planted tanks you don't want too much surface agitation or you lose too much CO2.

So for your set up, the two aquaclear 70's would be fine if the water level is closer to the output ramp so the surface agitation is minimal.
Not sure about requiring two AC70s, as I had a non planted tank with medium fish bioload using just one AC70 and was very stable.

Water movement is good to better distribute/disperse the co2 throughout the tank so no dead spots. Which is why you see planted tanks with powerheads to provide more circulation to disperse co2 throughout the tank to all the plants. Surface agitation is what planted tanks want minimal of. Keep in mind though, this is why some recommend air stones to run at night to increase surface agitation since at night when the plants aren't photosynthesizing, they are also using up the o2 that fish need. Fish are fine with the minimal surface agitation in the light hours since the plants give off o2, but night is another story. As long as the you don't find the fish too stressed and/or gasping at the surface for air, then the balance of o2-co2 is alright and livable for both plants and fish.

Take what I say with a grain of salt though as I am not too well knowledge in the chemistry of things. Not sure if the plants are affected by o2-co2 levels like fish (fish can get co2 poisoning from too much co2---is that not really poisoning, but just not enough o2 to breathe=suffocating?. So I am not sure if plants get the reverse (o2 poisoning if too much o2 in water---although I think it is the same, not necessarily the high levels of o2, just the lack of co2 to intake because of high surface agitation so they are starving).

Not sure how your fish bioload is, but if it is not too overstocked and you feel you are overfiltering, I am fairly certain you could use just one Aquaclear 70 for bio-filtration and use a powerhead to circulate under the water surface to distribute the co2 throughout the tank. Remember your plants act as biofilters aswell.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

10x GPH is actually pretty high, and is generally recommend for river tanks. 
(i think the normal turnover for planted tanks is 3 to 4x)

you can never really have to much filtration. but you can to much, or too of strong flow. i run high flow in most of my tanks, and the biggest problem i run into is that most plants do not enjoy being directly in the high flow. some of them will wilt away, or just stop growing, the only plant i find that does well in direct high flow is anubias (when i say high flow im talking a turn over of 10x or more)


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Aquatic Delight said:


> 10x GPH is actually pretty high, and is generally recommend for river tanks.
> (i think the normal turnover for planted tanks is 3 to 4x)
> 
> you can never really have to much filtration. but you can to much, or too of strong flow. i run high flow in most of my tanks, and the biggest problem i run into is that most plants do not enjoy being directly in the high flow. some of them will wilt away, or just stop growing, the only plant i find that does well in direct high flow is anubias (when i say high flow im talking a turn over of 10x or more)


Ah yes, forgot to touch on plants liking or not liking flow. Like anubias and water wisteria (hygrophila difformis) like good amounts of flow where as other plants don't like the higher flow.

4-6x turn over is what I remember for fish tanks. 10x is definitely high and said to be amount for river tanks. Rest assured though, turn over rates are rated with empty filters (no media slowing down the flow, especially varying on canister filters with varying lengths of hose and height from filter to tank). And like I mentioned earlier, the 10x turn over is still ok for the planted tank as long as the surface agitation isn't too much so that co2 can remain in the water longer.

You have 10x turn over rate, but that is out of 2 filter outputs, so it's a bit different, that having that 10x turn over rate coming out of 1 filter output (strong current). Aquaclears are alright though as their output tends to go straight down or to the front panel down and dispersing more gently rather than a canister filter more narrow, focused outflow.

Many people use a simple powerhead though and the flow seems to be perfectly tolerated for most plants.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

On one popular planted tank forum from across the pond,10 X flow rate is what those injecting the gas aim for to ensure good distribution of the gas as well as nutrient's to all area's of the tank.
The gas want's to escape up and out rather quickly, and the position of spray bar's,plus the 10X flow rate help's to distribute the gas all over before it rises up and out.
Less dead area's.
They seldom mention whether the fishes find the flow enjoyable,but their plant's don't seem to mind judging from photo's they present.
Near all of them also position the spray bar(s),powerhead's high on the back glass all pointing toward's the front to send the water movement down the front glass,across the substrate from front to back,and then back up the back glass to get the benefit's,best result's as far as I have been able to see.
I have adopted their flow pattern which seem's to work well with respect to eliminating dead area's but finances/free time keep me from trying the gas.
Maybe when I retire in a couple year's and can spend more time with my tank's.
I maybe use half the flow rate they use with the gas for my low tech non CO2 tanks and am pleased along with the fishes I suspect.


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## Christophe (Oct 23, 2013)

I think the only limiting factor for water movement is whether or not the plants can stay rooted and look ok. Good surface movement improves oxygenation, but also off gasses CO2. To make up for the CO2 loss, you have to turn up the rate a bit more.

Without doing some crazy pressurized oxygen injection scheme, you can't get too much oxygen into the water. This is why plants 'pearl' some time into your photoperiod -- they are producing more oxygen than can dissolve into the water easily.

Plants (all living things, really) use and need oxygen for respiration 24/7. During the photoperiod, they ALSO use light and CO2 to produce energy -- Photosynthesis. A side product of photosynthesis is oxygen. Plants tend to produce more oxygen than they use during the photoperiod. When the lights go out, photosynthesis stops, and plants stop producing oxygen, requiring it from the surroundings instead.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

You can never have to much filtration... But you can have to much flow... And no the two don't necessarily go hand in hand


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tank Filtration and Planted Tanks*

Hello jc...

Over filtering the tank will drive off more CO2, because the more the water surface is agitated, the more O2 is mixed into the water and more CO2 is lost. 

Many tank keepers put in heavy filtration with the idea that it keeps the water cleaner. It doesn't. Filters simply take in toxic water and return the water a bit less toxic. They'll never keep the tank water clean, only a large, frequent water change will. 

To keep a balanced tank with a higher CO2 level and low dissolved nitrogen, you use a filter with a gph just 4 times the volume of the tank creating less surface movement and change out 50 to 60 percent of the water every week to remove dissolved waste. 

Pretty simple.

B


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## bk. (Sep 27, 2014)

Hmm some interesting responses here. I've heard all of these details before but never really followed them closely. 

I'm currently running a fluval 306, eheim 2073, and 2 koralia 240s on my 55g heavily planted tank. According to manufacturer specs that would be roughly 1050 gph of flow and over 19x turnover. 

I run co2 and both plants and fish seem to be happy


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## schnebbles (Jan 10, 2015)

I've discovered 2 of my plants not doing well placed by my outflow as well. My flamingo crypt leaf has holes and so does my bolbitis, it's nearly cut through the leaf. going to have to do a different setup when I change my substrate today.


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## whitepapagold (Aug 19, 2010)

schnebbles said:


> I've discovered 2 of my plants not doing well placed by my outflow as well. My flamingo crypt leaf has holes and so does my bolbitis, it's nearly cut through the leaf. going to have to do a different setup when I change my substrate today.


Bolbitis LOVES flow. Literally LOVES it. So I would be shocked if that was the case.

Bolbitis is the plant I always put in front of the outflow.

Some easy plants good with high flow-
Anubias
Bolbitis
Java Fern
Java moss (it can grow flat)
Subwassertang (if established and not loose)
Marimo Ball moss (the trick is getting it to grow where you want it LOL)


My current tank


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## jcmv4792 (Jul 15, 2015)

In that case, I will probably just take out one of the ac70's and install a powerhead.

Anyone have suggestions on powerhead placement, and what powerhead to get for a 55 gallon?

This is the hardscape of my tank right now. I plan to take out the ac70 on the left.


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

I would keep both on there personally.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

keymastr said:


> I would keep both on there personally.


+1! That's not too much flow/filtration for a 55, not even close. Plus you can adjust them down some if needed


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

The heavy flow under the filter is only about a teacup saucer in size so just plan on that area being for a plant that likes higher flow. Heck, with the height of a 55 it will not be horribly strong by the time it gets to the bottom anyway.


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## Jcstank (Jan 3, 2015)

bbradbury said:


> hello jc...
> 
> Over filtering the tank will drive off more co2, because the more the water surface is agitated, the more o2 is mixed into the water and more co2 is lost.
> 
> ...


^ + 1


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

BBradbury said:


> Hello jc...
> 
> Over filtering the tank will drive off more CO2, because the more the water surface is agitated, the more O2 is mixed into the water and more CO2 is lost.
> 
> ...


 Some believe/advise, that with good surface ripple in low tech/low energy tank's that is often result of increased flow across the surface from one or more filter's ,that the exchange at the surface between O2 and CO2 allow's the CO2 in these tank's to reach close to equilibrium of that CO2 which is in the atmosphere above the tank as well as increase O2 level's during the night when plant's are net user's of O2.
In high tech/high energy tanks where the gas is injected,then trying to conserve CO2 is not as critical for one can slowly increase the amount being injected.
I tend to agree after observation's of my own low tech tank's with fairly good flow and surface ripple with not too much light,dry fertz once a week,and 50 to 60 % water changes each week.
Have not seen any adverse/negative reaction from the weed's or the fish /invert's.
Have went as long as month between water changes, but it goes against my religion, and gives me excuse to put my hand's in the tank each week.
I care for.

Bump:


BBradbury said:


> Hello jc...
> 
> Over filtering the tank will drive off more CO2, because the more the water surface is agitated, the more O2 is mixed into the water and more CO2 is lost.
> 
> ...


 Some believe/advise, that with good surface ripple in low tech/low energy tank's that is often result of increased flow across the surface from one or more filter's ,that the exchange at the surface between O2 and CO2 allow's the CO2 in these tank's to reach close to equilibrium of that CO2 which is in the atmosphere above the tank as well as increase O2 level's during the night when plant's are net user's of O2.
In high tech/high energy tanks where the gas is injected,then trying to conserve CO2 is not as critical for one can slowly increase the amount being injected.
I tend to agree after observation's of my own low tech tank's with fairly good flow and surface ripple with not too much light,dry fertz once a week,and 50 to 60 % water changes each week.
Have not seen any adverse/negative reaction from the weed's or the fish /invert's.
Have went as long as month between water changes, but it goes against my religion, and gives me excuse to put my hand's in the tank each week.
I care for.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Apologies for double post.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tank Filtration and Planted Tanks*



jcmv4792 said:


> I know the consensus is that lots of flow and 10x gph filtration is preferrable, but I came across this comment on another forum and found the point interesting... since I've been recommended to have two aquaclear 70s on a 55 gallon tank. I'm wondering if I have "too much" filtration or flow now.
> 
> Your thoughts?


Hello again jc...

One AC70 is plenty for a 55G tank. Two is churning up a lot of tank water and driving off a considerable amount of carbon dioxide. If you ran one filter, you wouldn't have to go to the expense and effort to run a CO2 system. Most aquatic plants you get at the pet store do fine with minimal filtration and lots of pure, treated tap water flushed through the tank to maintain good mineral levels. By feeding the fish a balanced diet of flakes, freeze dried and frozen, they provide all the added nutrients the plants need for good growth.

The simplest approach is most times the best approach.

B


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

If you arent injecting CO2, then the more surface agitation the better, because it improves gaseous exchange with the atmosphere which actually helps maintain a baseline co2 level in a low tech tank.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

burr740 said:


> If you arent injecting CO2, then the more surface agitation the better, because it improves gaseous exchange with the atmosphere which actually helps maintain a baseline co2 level in a low tech tank.


 
+one^
Water fall effect is not wanted,but having used the Aquaclear HOB's you can keep water level high enough to create good rippling without water fall effect = good.
I ran two aquaclear 70"s on my 55 gal low tech for nearly two year's one on each end, before switching to Rena XP3.
Plant's did fine then,and still do.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Tank Filtration and Planted Tanks*



roadmaster said:


> +one^
> Water fall effect is not wanted,but having used the Aquaclear HOB's you can keep water level high enough to create good rippling without water fall effect = good.
> I ran two aquaclear 70"s on my 55 gal low tech for nearly two year's one on each end, before switching to Rena XP3.
> Plant's did fine then,and still do.


Hello road...

Over filtration is pricey at best and really unnecessary if you're used to following an aggressive water change routine. The canister filter is great for a larger tank and for those with deep pockets. But, at roughly 3 times the cost of an HOB, I can't justify it. A canister just isn't 3 times better than the Hagen HOB. 

What we fail to realize, is the drastic change that water goes through when it constantly goes through a filter system. The longer water stays in the tank, the less it is able to support anything living in it. I'll opt for minimal, less expensive filtration and just remove and replace a lot of tank water and do it weekly. This way, I know the water chemistry is always stable, because there's never a build up of nitrogen. Water really is cheap.

B


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## MJB13 (Jun 30, 2015)

I believe that refers to surface agitation. H.O.B filters cause more surface agitation than canisters.
My outflow is about an inch or so underwater, at the back and is aimed toward the bottom of the back corner. I have a SunSun JVL-110 (528 gph) recirculation pump a few inches from the top of the front corner aimed at the bottom of the front of the tank. I have stronger flow and more upwelling, but less actual splashy noise agitation than a H.O.B.

Plants do good, fish do good...I like to think it evens out in the long run.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

BBradbury said:


> Hello road...
> 
> Over filtration is pricey at best and really unnecessary if you're used to following an aggressive water change routine. The canister filter is great for a larger tank and for those with deep pockets. But, at roughly 3 times the cost of an HOB, I can't justify it. A canister just isn't 3 times better than the Hagen HOB.
> 
> ...


 
I feel ya.
I just got tired of looking at the Emperor 400's and the Aquaclear's
hanging on my tank's and decided they would look less cluttered with single spraybar or output from canister and nothing hanging on the tank.
Have always changed at least 50% of my water each week, sometimes twice a week when raising young fishes that do better for me with three or four small feeding's a day.
Won't never hear me suggesting canister's somehow negate the need for regular water changes.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Filters serve more than one purpose. It is true that a filter can provide more surface for good bacteria to live, and can therefore help keep ammonia from fish waste from building up. But, filters are there to keep the particulates in the water from building up too. That is what filter floss, or filter pads are there for. A planted tank has loads of surface area in the tank, in plant surfaces and hardscape surfaces, so the filter is not the primary place for bacteria colonies to live. A fish only aquarium does need the bacteria colonies in the filter, and has too little surface areas for bacteria without the filter. If you want crystal clear water, a good filter with good filter media is how you get that.

Water can be saturated with oxygen, but only barely supersaturated, so it would be very hard to get too much oxygen in the water, enough to harm the plants. That isn't a reason for avoiding too much filtering.

CO2 readily dissolves in water, and the CO2 in the air is a primary source of CO2 for a tank that doesn't have CO2 injection. Stirring up the water real good with "overfiltering" cannot drive out that CO2. It can only help maintain the approximately 3 ppm of CO2 in the water from atmospheric CO2. If your substrate is generating lots of CO2 from decomposition - the Walstad method - you might lose CO2 with too much surface agitation. How many of us use the Walstad method though?


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## matt11390 (Apr 16, 2007)

roadmaster said:


> Apologies for double post.


Are you saying a low tech tank with no infuser is better with a slight water disturbance on the top?


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## dpod (Sep 16, 2014)

matt11390 said:


> Are you saying a low tech tank with no infuser is better with a slight water disturbance on the top?


That's exactly right. Ripples are good as they increase surface area, but actual splashing is counterproductive and greatly increases evaporation.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I've turned my flow down considerably because my plants were laying on their side due to the flow. I think I'm in the 3-4x tank volume area right now. I wouldn't really venture too far past 5x tank volume in ACTUAL filter flow, IE not really what it is rated at. I use a sump with a pump and I just measured how long it took to pump 5 gallons from the sump out of the spray bar and extrapolated that data. It can be done with a canister too. Head height, media, etc all slow the flow that your filter is 'rated' at. Not to mention those ratings are usually optimistic.


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## Jcstank (Jan 3, 2015)

I think having owned both HOB filters and a nice Eheim Professional 3 the biggest difference between the two is the silence of the canister filter compared to the noisiness of the HOB filters.


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## Mebbid (Sep 26, 2013)

I am currently running a high tech 40b with 4x t5ho bulbs over it. In this tank I run an AQ 70 and a Sunsun HW 304B Under optimal conditions this gives me a grand total of 825 gph in the tank. I have a 5lb CO2 canister with an Aquatek regulator. I diffuse the CO2 directly into the Aquaclear filter using a small bubble air stone which gives me bubbles sized between a regular airstone and a wooden airstone (the canister was horrendous at this and wasted a TON of co2) There is also no top on the tank. 

I have absolutely no problems maintaining adequate co2 on this tank despite the absurdly high flow rate and not a single fish in my tank cares about the high flow including my angels. This co2 tank is now currently approaching 5 months since the last refill which is 2 months longer than I had with just the sunsun filter on the tank while using a ceramic diffuser. The only plants that I have problems keeping alive in this tank are my crypts despite my best efforts and my bolbitis which I believe is currently a lighting issue. This is the last picture I took of my tank after a 2 week vacation (without any added ferts in my absence) 










So in my experience, the plants don't care if the flow is high or not.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

I don't use any filtration, water flow, or air, or substrate in my tanks. They are abundantly planted and doing exceptionally well. Sometimes I think more stuff is just more stuff. Check out my website: aquariumexperiments.com, and see if you can use any of my methods. There is a lot of mis-information out there. My tanks are proving that you can think out of the box, and be quite successful.


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## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

I guess it depends on the definition of success. From appearance of your tanks it seems that your definition is something like "doing as little as possible get biggest amount of plant biomass per gallon of water where some hardy fish will still survive and to hell with looks". To become even more successful you can replace all your plants with najas - believe me, it'll work great, you'll get enormous success pretty quick! BTW, you can also take out the lighting and just allow for a bit of sun light - najas will still grow great, probably even better! You'll easily prove that one can have a tank without "any filtration, water flow, or air, or substrate" - or artificial light - "and be quite successful". For your definition of success.

However, in my experience for many people success is something way closer to Mebbid's tank than to yours and I'm afraid your methods will not be helpful in this case.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Oso Polar said:


> I guess it depends on the definition of success. From appearance of your tanks it seems that your definition is something like "doing as little as possible get biggest amount of plant biomass per gallon of water where some hardy fish will still survive and to hell with looks". To become even more successful you can replace all your plants with najas - believe me, it'll work great, you'll get enormous success pretty quick! BTW, you can also take out the lighting and just allow for a bit of sun light - najas will still grow great, probably even better! You'll easily prove that one can have a tank without "any filtration, water flow, or air, or substrate" - or artificial light - "and be quite successful". For your definition of success.
> 
> However, in my experience for many people success is something way closer to Mebbid's tank than to yours and I'm afraid your methods will not be helpful in this case.


Thanks for your contribution. I get that kind of response about my tanks every now and then. Most people are much kinder and don't say nasty things about the 'look' of my tanks. I think they are quite pretty. I wouldn't tell you your tanks look like hell. I have documented my success. I am going against the norm. It has taken a lot of research, and I am proud of the work I have done. The 'Chemistry' section of my website is what it is all about. I think it would be very helpful to anyone with aquariums, salt or fresh. I'm sharing my experiences. I'll have to add a 'nasty comment' section for all of the haters. :}


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