# miracle grow organic garden soil - fish twitching



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Hi all,

I am new to this forum and I am really hoping that someone could suggest what's going on with my tank/fish. 

As stated in the title, I used Miracle Grow Organic Choice Garden Soil (note, not Potting) to set up a 1G tank as an experiment. The tank has lots of plants, as many as I could fit, and it has a snail that is doing well and multiplying. When the tank was 1 week old I put a betta fish in. Within minutes he started twitching, like seizures. It was sporadic and the rest of the time he was happy. I had him in there for 3 days, but the twitching wouldn't stop, so I took him out. As soon as he got into clean water the twitching stopped.

I am guessing it has to do with the soil, but have no idea why and what I did wrong. Any ideas?

Thanks!


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

It has manure and chicken poop in it. It created an ammonia hell for the fish.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Hey mistergreen, thanks for the reply! I tested it with api master test kit every single day, everything was 0 and the ammonia was between 0 and 0.25. Could it be releasing something I can't test for? What do I do about it - was it the wrong kind of soil to use or is there some way that I can rectify it? I didn't mineralize it, is that why?


----------



## Dreanimal (Sep 3, 2015)

Is the tank fully cycled? I have a dirt planted 60g without any twitching fish.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Dreanimal, I don't know how long it would take a 1G to cycle or how to tell if it is. The tank was only 7 days old, but all ammonia/nitrite/nitrate was registering at 0 or < 0.25 every single day.

Also as an experiment I siphoned as much water out of it as I could, and then filled it with the water from the fish's tank where he is now (and shows no twitching), then put the fish in and within a few minutes he was twitching again.

What kind of soil do you use? I am wondering if I used the wrong type?


----------



## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Check the pH between the different waters. pH shock can cause convulsions.

Might as well check GH, KH, temperature while you are at it.

Can you list the ingredients list from the soil?


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

PH was also consistently 7.6, just like my tap. Temperature is a long story. The first time I put him in, I transferred him from his "hospital" which was at 74F into the npt which was at 80F. First I warmed up the hospital to 80F slowly - it took all day, about 12 hours. Then I put him in, but I didn't acclimate him. I thought maybe that was the issue, which is why I kept him there for 3 days, but the seizures did not subside. The 2nd time I tried, like I said, I filled the tank with 90% his clean water (now at 80F) and put him in.

The bag doesn't have ingredients listed. Soil looks nice though, no wood chips. There is a seedling growing in there, I am guessing it's a stray weed, which I guess would mean they didn't use any weed killers.

I was thinking - could suspended soil particles get into the fish's gills and cause this kind of behaviour?

Or, if it's something to do with soil releasing toxins, would mineralizing help? Or should I just use different soil?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

try soil without manure in it. I usually use cheap topsoil.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Mistergreen, this is the cheapest topsoil I can find: Soil - Black Top Soil | RONA
Will that work? Do I need to mineralize it and is adding clay absolutely essential? 

Thanks so much!


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Any soil without manure is fine. I usually soak it in water and skim off chunks of bark and twigs. They are problematic organic components. Clay is not essential.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Ok, thanks, I'll try that one I think. Just want to make sure I understand though, if manure was causing issues wouldn't api test kit show ammonia? Or does manure cause a different issue that I can't measure?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Who knows. Your test kit might not work and toxins you can't measure.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Hmm, just looked very carefully all over the bag, no ingredients but found this line "do not use near open water". ??? Okay, I am switching soil! 

Thanks mistergreen.


----------



## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

olgamc said:


> Hmm, just looked very carefully all over the bag, no ingredients but found this line "do not use near open water". ??? Okay, I am switching soil!
> 
> Thanks mistergreen.


its on there somewhere. You want "poultry litter" which is what used to be in the old miracle grow organic potting soil that worked very well in aquariums. Basically you want chicken poop instead of cow poop in the dirt.:grin2:


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Yeah, I made the mistake of buying "garden" instead of "potting". Other threads here though say that cow manure should be okay, just give it more time because it will be producing too much ammonia in the beginning. I am confused, because the first week my test kit has not been showing ammonia (and it's the liquid test kit which is supposed to be very accurate). So why did it bother the fish?

BTW, I dug up an analysis sheet on the garden soil and it says that there is nothing toxic in it, so "don't apply near open water" is probably a blanket statement. We e-mailed them as well about it.

Now the tank is 2 weeks old, and I just tested and it's showing ammonia=0.5 and nitrites are just ever so slightly over 0. Should I just stick with it and see if it cycles? Or should I give up and get a different soil? Or should I start over with the soil I have and mineralize it first? I am curious to experiment, but I don't want to risk hurting my fish down the road. (He is in a different tank now of course). 

What would you do?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

"don't apply near open water"
Probably means that it will leach ferts into possible drinking water table which is illegal.

If you're want to stick with it, every week, do 90% water change for a month and then add fish back and see. Don't add anything that'll you'll miss.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Do add anything that'll you'll miss? What do you mean?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

olgamc said:


> Do add anything that'll you'll miss? What do you mean?


 Don't add anything that'll you'll miss.


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I would try mineralizing the soil, try it again in the tank, and watch for ammonia. Even mineralizing it might not deal with all the nitrogen, some might still show up as ammonia. 

Whether you mineralize or not, I would do the fishless cycle. This will give the soil about 3 weeks of being under water with no fish added. It will allow a lot of microorganisms to grow. Or, if the stuff stops the nitrogen cycle bacteria from growing, then you will know it is not good for the aquarium. 
Many soils go through about a month of changes when they are first submerged. Even in the bag, there are microorganisms, perhaps in a dormant stage. When they are submerged they either live or die. 
Even if the soil had no manure these microorganisms would cause an ammonia spike if they could not survive under water and died. 
The ones that are OK with being under water will grow and reproduce. If there is enough ammonia, then you may not have to add any to encourage the nitrifying bacteria to get going. 

A lot of 'Ifs', but that is the point- we do not know. Try a few things, and lets see what happens. 

Here is the fishless cycle. Check the water parameters to be sure they are in the right range for the bacteria to thrive, and lets see if it will cycle. 
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. (7.5-8 seems to be optimum)
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher (to 95*F or about 35*C) is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, and trace elements like CSM+B that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. I have even heard of the right bacteria growing in the bio film found on driftwood. (So if you have been soaking some driftwood in preparation to adding it to the tank, go ahead and put it into the tank) Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1a) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria may use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. They use the carbon from CO2, and this is generally pretty low in water, but can be replenished from the air and from carbonates. Keep the carbonates up to keep the pH up, too. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. To grow them at optimum rates, keep the pH on the alkaline side of neutral. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving. 1 ppm twice a day will grow almost as much bacteria as 3 ppm once a day.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Wow, Diana, what an awesome detailed post! Thank you so much for typing that all out for me, I am honored! I just finished a fish-in cycle in another tank and I read about fishless cycle, but this is just great. All in one place and step-by-step. I just have a few questions:

- If not jump started, this method should take about 3 weeks to cycle, correct?
- "Or, if the stuff stops the nitrogen cycle bacteria from growing, then you will know it is not good for the aquarium." - so if I don't see nitrites/nitrates?
- I read that cycling with a raw shrimp or fish food can grow bacteria that causes columnaris. Is that true?
- If bacteria need water movement, how are they going to live after the cycle once the aerator or pump are removed?
- I am guessing once the cycle is complete, oxygen for bacteria is going to be provided by plants?


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

In soil tanks, cycling is very fast, at most a week. The soil generate ammonia and has built in nitrifying bacteria colony.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

- If not jump started, this method should take about 3 weeks to cycle, correct?

That is right. And in this case you WANT it to take time. You want the soil to have more time under water to develop whatever microorganisms will live, and to kill of whichever ones will not thrive. So do not bother to hurry the cycle. 

- "Or, if the stuff stops the nitrogen cycle bacteria from growing, then you will know it is not good for the aquarium." - so if I don't see nitrites/nitrates?

If you do not see nitrates or nitrites, or if the ammonia level does not start dropping, then the nitrifying bacteria are not doing very well. I posted the fishless cycle so you can make sure the other parameters (mineral levels and everything else) is right. This way you know that there is something from the soil causing problems. Everything else is eliminated as a possible cause for the bacteria to fail because you are doing everything right to make sure they thrive. The only variable is the soil. 

- I read that cycling with a raw shrimp or fish food can grow bacteria that causes columnaris. Is that true?

I do not think so. Columnaris lives on live fish. I do not think it lives of dead fish, dead shell fish or fish food. I would suggest not using the shrimp or fish food method because in this case you want to carefully monitor and control the ammonia levels. This is not so easy with shrimp or fish food as the source. 

- If bacteria need water movement, how are they going to live after the cycle once the aerator or pump are removed?

The livestock need water movement, too. Running a stagnant tank is not good for the fish etc. 
However, if there is no water movement, then the bacteria will only be found where optimum oxygen levels are. This is in the uppermost part of the tank where oxygen enters the water from the air. This is where the livestock will be, too. 

- I am guessing once the cycle is complete, oxygen for bacteria is going to be provided by plants? 

It can be, but they don't actually provide all that much oxygen. Best to have good water movement for a healthy tank.


----------



## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

I agree with everything Diana said. And yup, do provide surface agitation, flow/circulation. Low oxygen and poor circulation/flow are not ideal for nitrifying bacteria and can actually make a breeding ground (suitable environment) for some nasty bacterial diseases. I agree that plants, while they do produce oxygen, is not really adequate for a healthy tank (unless you are injecting co2 and plants grow rapidly, but still flow plays a part).

Although I am not sure what remineralizing/adding more minerals to the tank/soil would do in terms of the nitrogen.

As far as nitrifying bacteria in the soil cycling a tank faster, I am not sure what nitrifying bacteria species are within the soil, but not all the nitrifying bacteria from the soil will survive in aquatic environments. There may be some nitrifiers that will survive though, with some being able to live, but not being very efficient submersed. Vice versa, freshwater or saltwater nitrifiers might not do well or even survive being "out of their element", used soil/land based or a different aquatic environment (SW or FW). Some nitrifiers may live and even nitrify (convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrate), so it might seem like the tank is cycling, but they are much less efficient nitrifiers (in freshwater) than the dominant nitrifying bacteria that occur in our tanks.

Again, I don't know if the soil may actually have Nitrosomonas and Nitrospira bacteria (I guess Nitrobacter is still in the air on it's effectiveness) that could speed cycle the tank.
If you did want to speed cycle for sure, you can use Tetra SafeStart or Dr. Tim's One and Only. Monitor the ammonia levels, as the recommended bacteria dosages I imagine are for "average stock bioload" tanks, so it may be necessary to dose a bit more bacteria, or just wait for the bacteria to multiply to handle the ammonia leaching out from the substrate.

But anyways, with the soil leaching ammonia and the tank cycling, definitely don't keep any fish in there or they will suffer from ammonia toxicity.


----------



## Wilderman204 (Mar 5, 2015)

Try worm castings


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Wow, you guys are awesome, I can't thank you enough! Re water movement/oxygen - I am using a 1G tank for this experiment and if it works I will set up either a 2.5g or a 5g as a permanent home for my betta. I read that smaller tanks don't need additional water movement, but I don't know why - is that because the fish swimming around provides enough? What do you think? 

Worm castings? What do they do?


----------



## Wilderman204 (Mar 5, 2015)

olgamc said:


> Worm castings? What do they do?


Use them instead of miracle grow, or mineralizing soil. The castings have basically been "mineralized" in the worms gut. Look for good quality worm castings. You can also make your own with a worm compost bin. If you buy, I suggest "Worm Gold Plus".


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Where do you get that Wilderman? I checked lowes, home depot, rona and amazon.ca - nothing. I am in Ontario.


----------



## Wilderman204 (Mar 5, 2015)

olgamc said:


> Where do you get that Wilderman? I checked lowes, home depot, rona and amazon.ca - nothing. I am in Ontario.


Not sure. I'm in Manitoba and I've only seen WormGoldPlus at one gardening centre in Winnipeg once. You can use any worm castings, preferably a brand that is OMRI listed. WormGold Plus just has added trace minerals that would really benefit the plants. You can get the same result by mixing in GiaGreen Glacial Rock Dust, or Azomite. But Azomite is still tough to find in Canada.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Ahha, ok, I'll keep that list in mind. Thanks Wilderman! I am trying a bunch of different things, so my original little tank that this thread started with is still going (without fish, just snails) and I am also mineralizing a batch of soil. If none of these work, I'll either look for worm castings or just give up with the planted tank idea and switch to aquaponics. Just trying to find the healthiest environment for my fish that is the lowest maintenance. So far the dirted tank has been kind of creepy to be honest. Lots of critters I wasn't expecting like detritus worms and planaria and some other microscopic things that jump like fleas, and all that stuff about anaerobic gases... so I am not sure if it's going to work for me at all...I am rambling.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Quick mineralizing question: do I need to let the soil dry out completely? Because it's been 24 hours since I drained it and spread it out to dry and it's still soggy, so I can't imagine that it will be fully dry by tomorrow. I am doing it indoors, the temperature is 22 Celsius (71 F).

Thanks!


----------



## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Pretty sure it need's to be damp/dried a couple times ,but google search for" mineralized soil substrate " should produce description of the method.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

So dried completely then? I'll go set up a little heater next to it, that should help things along.


----------



## Ozymandius (Jan 13, 2013)

The following is an exerpt from the sticky on mineralized topsoil.

"The mineralization is performed by various microbes in the soil that are active when exposed to oxygen and the soil is moist." - AaronT

I suspect you are better off letting it dry on its own and stay damp. That's when the little critters are doing their job. You may want to check the recipe in the sticky for mineralizing. Also google "A new recipe and procedure for mineralized topsoil!" for a thread on APE that discusses adding two additional items to the typical mineralized topsoil recipe. Just go to the last page of the APE thread for the final modifications. Otherwise you will go through a blow by blow discussion of all the things attempted.

I've been telling myself that I'm going to set up an itty bitty Fluval Edge in my office with this substrate for the last couple of years but just haven't quite shaken off the lethargy. Maybe this thread is just what I needed.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Ozymandius, thanks for the resource! I am using miracle grow organic, which has some stuff added already, but I don't know what, there are no ingredients on the bag. LOL So I am kind of scared of adding anything else to the mix. What do you think?

I learned something weird on an aquaponic forum today. Apparently you can do a fishless cycle with urine, and it's a fantastic fertilizer. Not sure I am quite up to that idea yet...

I should have waited for the summer. Next batch I do it'll be in the summer for sure, too much trouble indoors. But the instructions do say that it has to dry completely, so I set up a little area heater. I don't think it's any hotter than what the soil would naturally be like in full sun on a hot summer day, so hopefully I am not interfering too much with the process.

If you start your soil now, you'll be less than a week behind me. We could race. Well, sort of, because you can't rush the process.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

You can do it outside. The cold air dry air should dry things fast, as long it's not freezing.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

mistergreen said:


> You can do it outside. The cold air dry air should dry things fast, as long it's not freezing.


Nah, it's 3C now and supposed to rain all next week. :frown2:


----------



## Ozymandius (Jan 13, 2013)

It's been a couple of years since I read the sticky and I'm doing this from memory so it would be great if one of the scientists would chime in. 

I may be mistaken but I don't believe that having the soil dry out is the goal. The microbial action only occurs when the soil is damp and exposed to oxygen. A natural consequence of the exposure to air is that the substrate will dry out. So you add more water to activate the microbial action. Using a heater would be contraindicated. Just keep the stuff damp.

Excerpt from sticky: "The drying out period is the most crucial part of the whole process. Exposing the soil to lots of oxygen while it is moist is the key to mineralizing the soil. You could mist the soil to keep it from drying out to fast. It usually dries in a day on a good hot summer day." - AaronT

Typically it takes several cycles for the mineralization process to complete. In your case, it will take even longer because of the excessive amount of organic material in your soil (Miracle Grow Organic). You don't want to modify the additives in the recipe on the premise that Miracle Grow has some additives in there. By the time you finish the mineralization process, none of those additives will still be present. That's why most people use cheap top soil. The additives in the fancy soils just lengthen the mineralization process and don't appreciably change the final substrate. Your soil should look like this when complete. Image purloined from the original Aaron Talbot post.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

I am a bit confused about the sticky because while it says that mineralization takes place in moist soil, it also says to dry the soil completely:



> Pour the excess water out of the container as you did when changing the water. Lay out the large plastic tarp, preferably in direct sunlight. Dump out the muddy soil and spread it relatively thin over the tarp. Allow the soil to dry completely. This can take a day or two and depends greatly on how warm the temperature is where you are drying the soil. This part of the process could be done indoors. Though due to its messy nature, I suggest doing it outdoors if possible. When the soil is completely dry, add it back into the soaking container.
> The drying process is the part that allows the microbes in the soil to begin mineralizing the nutrients. Exposing it to air oxygenates the soil.


I ended up spreading the soil on a plastic sheet on top of my clothes dryer. By now it's just a little bit moist, good enough I think. I am going to go ahead and soak it overnight and do some more laundry in the next few days. Good thing I have a lot of laundry generating people in the house! 



Ozymandius said:


> By the time you finish the mineralization process, none of those additives will still be present. That's why most people use cheap top soil. The additives in the fancy soils just lengthen the mineralization process and don't appreciably change the final substrate


Are you sure? I thought that the additives like manure break down during mineralization and enrich the soil, which is the whole point. From what I've seen, it seems that people either use mineralized top soil with clay and stuff, or miracle gro organic on it's own. It's just that usually they don't mineralize miracle gro, but in my case it sent my fish through the roof. I thought that it eventually mineralizes in the tank anyway, no?


----------



## Ozymandius (Jan 13, 2013)

The importance (is that a word) of that quote is not in getting the soil completely dry but on the fact that mineralization stops when it is completely dry so you have to get the soil wet again.

As far as the additives to the Miracle Grow:
The organic additives like manure will eventually mineralize though it will be a slow process. It's also not necessary since mineralized *top soil* is nutrient dense enough as it is. I too wondered is the enriched soil would make better mineralized top soil. But Sean Murphy who originated the technique has test tanks that have been going strong for over 15 years without requiring any additional supplements other than potassium and he used top soil.

If you don't remove or mineralize the organics, they will decompose over time in the substrate and release into the water column possibly creating problems such as algae blooms. The goal of this method is to have a nutrient dense substrate and a nutrient thin water column so you can "set it and forget it". This way you don't ever have to dose liquid ferts. You can add potassium to the substrate every six months or so and not worry about a dosing schedule.

As far as the soluble additives in the Miracle Grow, those will come out as you rinse the soil and you want them out. You don't want to have them enter the water column. Many of the posts on this forum refer to initial problems with "green water" or algae blooms from the huge release of nutrients into the water column.

I do not believe that a soil substrate will ever mineralize once it is placed in the tank due to lack of oxygen in the substrate.

I was attracted to mineralized top soil due to the low maintenance requirements. I'm not good at meticulous schedules and you have to be if you dose ferts. I even automate my credit card payments. The other thing I like about mineralizing is that it works well with low tech as well as high light/CO2 tanks. I may add CO2 to the currently non-existent Fluval Edge at a later date.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Ozymandius, the low maintenance is what's attracting me to the soil tank as well. My son was given his fish for Christmas, and I've never had a fish tank before, so it was a total and complete surprise and a huge learning curve. Since my son is small, of course the person maintaining the tank is me, and I am so not a maintenance person! So I am trying to give this awesome fish the best life while going easy on my own personality.

Ok, so back to mineralization, would you recommend that I restart with regular top soil or that I should continue and then add the extra ingredients? I thought that just rolling with what I've got is good enough, because this is an experiment tank, so chances are high that I'll be redoing it a few months down the road anyway. I was thinking that if all goes well and it lasts for 2-3 years than I'll be in heaven. I don't think the fish will make it longer than that anyway.


----------



## Ozymandius (Jan 13, 2013)

This stuff is pretty forgiving. Just keep up what you're doing but if you can, add the additional items that the recipe calls for. You really will be fine. I think you would have been fine with a straight dirt tank as well but you have to do a lot of water changes initially. There is a guy on the forum that experimented with dog poo in his tank and made it work.

Your plants will feed from their roots instead of from the water column and so they will be a little slow out the gate until they get a good root system established. But the plants tend to be a little denser which I like. My tanks have always had a little bit of a gangly look to them. You can choose to go heavy on the light if you like but I don't plan to on mine. I am content with slow growth since I have to trim and maintain a little less. I may add a little CO2 later on so I can grow a little more interesting variety of plants. You can have CO2 without heavy lights but not the other way around. Good luck.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Ozymandius, so I am still puzzled by my original dirt tank. It's still going by the way, I just want to see what's going to come of it while I am mineralizing the soil. Everything that I read says what you said, that you can start a tank without mineralizing but then you have to watch for ammonia and nitrite and do more water changes. That's what I did, never saw any ammonia, so why the twitching? At one point I actually siphoned out 90% of the dirted tank water, and filled it with the water from the fish's tank. Put the fish in - twitching. Take him out - stops. I assumed that it was some other additives in the soil, hence I am mineralizing a new batch.

So today I noticed that he is twitching again. He is not in the dirted tank, he is in his unfiltered qt. I just vacuumed and changed 25% of the water on Sunday. There are things floating in his water, small white particles here and there. And in the dirted tank there was soil particles in the water. So I am wondering - could he be sensitive to floaty stuff? Maybe he is just not a dirted tank kind of fish (I am guessing there is usually at least some floaties in a dirted tank), and maybe I should get him a filter? What do you think?

PS. I haven't got him a filter because I really don't want a traditional tank with all the maintenance, so I've been hoping to either have him in a dirted or in an aquaponic, neither of which needs a filter.


----------



## alcimedes (Dec 7, 2014)

olgamc said:


> Quick mineralizing question: do I need to let the soil dry out completely? Because it's been 24 hours since I drained it and spread it out to dry and it's still soggy, so I can't imagine that it will be fully dry by tomorrow. I am doing it indoors, the temperature is 22 Celsius (71 F).
> 
> Thanks!


You should let it get mostly dry, although it doesn't have to be bone dry. When it's ready, if you pick it up and rub it in one hand, it should feel like a silty sand almost. Very gritty, very granular and little odor.

After spending 20+ hours mineralizing some bags of miracle grow for my 125G tank, I learned my lesson for the next time around and just bought some topsoil from a landscaping place near by.

They store their dirt in outdoor bins (plenty of sun and rain so it's been mineralized far better than I would have) and it cost me something like $1.50 to fill a 2 five gallon buckets. Not only was the dirt 90% cheaper, but the 20+ hours of mineralizing had already been done for me.


----------



## olgamc (Mar 3, 2016)

Hey guys! I have an update on the fish and a question. Thanks in advance!

Update: fish officially has parasites and is being treated. I don't know if he got them from the snail or what when I first put him into the soil tank, but I think I can finally confirm that he was not twitching because of the soil.

Question: My original tank has finished cycling. It is full of snails and planaria and other critters, and no fish. It smells kinda funky, like a lake. It's not a pleasant smell, but it's not unpleasant either. So do I scrap it and set it up again with the batch of soil that is 2 days away from done mineralizing? Or do I roll with it and scrap the new soil? I guess I am mainly concerned about the smell and about there possibly being parasites in the old soil.


----------

