# Ideal substrate for large tank



## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

As in other posts, we're buying our first house this month (hopefully) and I want to set up a large tank (100G+). I plan on it being heavily planted, with CO2, _etc_.

Not sure of the substrate to go with. In the past I've used Aquasoil, but only for much, _much_ smaller tanks. Looking at how much I'd need, I suspect it would be around $300-400 for just the Aquasoil alone.

I know that there are volcanic-rock based substrates that are inert but with a high CEC, but they would need to be enriched. I'm also a little wary of that as I'd like to keep Kuhli Loaches, and I'm wary of them harming their barbels on the sharp substrate.

I'm open to any and all suggestions.


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## Patricia Hampton (Sep 6, 2016)

When I set up my 125 gallon tank I used this:

Flourite Premium Aquarium Plant Substrate | Substrate | PetSmart

It works fairly well and I just mixed it with fine gravel and large gravel. I bought 2 large bags and it did just fine in my tank. The rocks were what costed the most for me

Smaller gravel: 

Top Fin® Premium Quality Aquarium Gravel | Gravel & Sand | PetSmart

Larger Gravel:

Top Fin® Premium Quality Aquarium Gravel | Gravel & Sand | PetSmart

I had to get like 10 bags of each and I probably could have gone with a little less, but I still like how the gravel looks and it has been set up for almost 2 years now. The only problem I have is finding plants that my Raphael Catfish likes to have planted! Every time I put a new plant in there, the next morning I wake up to it floating.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

If you don't mind a tannin look peat works really well and is very inexpensive.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I've had kuhlis with eco complete without a problem. Either way with AS or Eco you eventually have to dose the water column. EC is cleaner to work with, but if your used to AS nothing is really better.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

If the $300-400 price tag on substrate is intimidating, then I'm a little worried that you aren't ready to really have a med-high tech 100G+ tank. No offense, not trying to be rude. I myself am not ready for the 100G+ tank, for this very reason (equipment and scape costs). 

You're going to be spending thousands, setting up a pressurized CO2 injected, well lit, heavily planted, heavily fished, 100G+ tank. What is $300 on some good substrate, which will help you out immensely in the long run?


That concern aside, if you still are sticking to your guns on a big planted tank, and want to minimize substrate cost, go with a mix. 

Use a little of the expensive, good stuff, and a lot of assorted fillers for other layers. Cap some ECO off with sand. Do a layer of cheap rocks at the bottom to provide some lift, and cap with ECO. Or cap with ECO, then sand. Dirt, and cap with ADA/ECO. Heck, I've seen a couple of tanks that were 2 inches of cat litter, capped off with flourite, and they grew wonderfully healthy plants and had happy fish. You can leave the cheap stuff in the middle, not letting it touch the edges of the tank, so to an observer, it looks like ALL eco/ADA/flourite, and the litter/dirt/pebbles/sand are invisible. My first tank was just a bunch of cheap sand, topped off with 1 bag of ECO and I grew plants like gangbusters with it.

Lots of ways to get creative on making yourself a good substrate.

Bump: Also, FWIW, I've had tons of various bottom feeders, and fish who like to nose around in the substrate, and I've never had adverse effects from the coarse, rough texture of Eco.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

While it sounds good that people can fill their tanks with kitty litter and have plants grow, kitty litter breaks down and turns to mush. If the layers of kitty litter are deep enough, said mush suffocates plant roots which need oxygen to grow.

I don't know where this kitty litter thing came from, but whoever the brain child was behind it should get a better understanding of how plants grow. Yeah sure, it's cheap initially, but when all the plants die and need to be replaced suddenly the kitty litter option isn't so cheap any more.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If your setting up a large tank for the long run there's really no reason to go cheap on the substrate by laying it with other material. It's ridiculously hard to move both plant and hardscape around once you do that. If you keep the substrate uniform believe me it's much easier and cleaner to work with. For the amount of time your going to be replacing the substrate it's really not a large expense.


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## Patricia Hampton (Sep 6, 2016)

I actually have VERY little trouble moving anything around in my aquarium and I have REALLY bad hips. I was moving stuff around pretty much every day because I wasn't happy with how things were laid out (typical female mind changing I hear)... I am not sure what the issues would be with moving things around with mixing substrate with other materials like rocks... If you could please discuss this further, I would appreciate it.

Bump: I cannot even imagine using kitty litter personally, but I also dont like anything about kitty litter to begin with. my cats stay outside because I refuse to use a cat box.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

My concern with Aquasoil is my understanding that over a long period of time, it basically breaks down into mud.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

While it may not be the ideal substrate to optimize plant growth, I suggest that pool filter sand will serve you well in several respects in a larger tank, namely: 
- cost - @ around $12. for a 50 lb. bag in many areas, so 3 bags would do nicely in a 100 + gal tank.
- good plant growth - the use of root tab ferts in the sand will go far in producing good plant growth.
- good for bottom dwellers - loaches & cories do extremely well in PFS - no harm to barbels. 
- tank cleanliness - very easy to keep clean so there is no excess of harmful bacteria build-up - therefore water quality remains good.
- secure plantings - PFS will keep plants well anchored once in & beginning to develop.
- looks of the tank - PFS of your color choice with corresponding suitable background will make for a very attractive layout.
- no messes from substrate eventually turning to mush.
Think about it.


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## visionist (Jan 10, 2014)

HaeSuse said:


> You're going to be spending thousands, setting up a pressurized CO2 injected, well lit, heavily planted, heavily fished, 100G+ tank. What is $300 on some good substrate, which will help you out immensely in the long run?


How did you come to that conclusion? Unless you include the price of tank etc it shouldn't be thousands...
Co2 injection setup can be put together for 200$ if you're savvy about it with a diy regulator setup. Co2 refills aren't terribly expensive. Ferts are fairly cheap.
Lighting can be had for 250-500$ depending how sophisticated you want to be.
So including tank, plants, fish, co2 etc you could spend thousands if you wanted, or you can spend much less buying a used tank, price hunting co2 equipment, potentially used lights or budget lights and still be in high tech category with high lighting, ferts and co2. As others have mentioned the substrate doesn't really matter too much after so long.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Ameisen said:


> My concern with Aquasoil is my understanding that over a long period of time, it basically breaks down into mud.


I think that was more of a problem with a particular production run and it seems to not be as much of an issue now, but, like the name says, it is soil. If you're going to be uprooting and planting a lot it will cause the granules to break down. It's not gravel and can't be treated as such.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

visionist said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? Unless you include the price of tank etc it shouldn't be thousands...


I dunno.... Never made one that that big. But I know I have spent upwards of a thousand on a med-tech 29G. Don't have my receipts, and it was 15 years ago, but I know it was a lot. And I didn't do anything stupid (buy brand new, top of the line, industrial grade stuff, etc). And I didn't have CO2 (I did a yeast thing for a few months). Tank and stand a few hundred bucks. Custom made hood with lighting, couple hundred bucks. Substrate, hardscape, a hundred bucks. Fishies, inverts, etc $100. Plants and whatnot, $100. Equipment (filters, pumps, uv, timers, strips, heaters, etc), several hundred bucks. My very rough math says that adds up to many, several, hundred bucks. I'm no rocket scientist, but I'm thinking maybe $800-1100? Very roughly?

And, right now, I'm not halfway through setting up my (eventually) high tech 55G, and I got the tank and stand for free, and my only splurge was a Current USA Satellite PRO+ (~$300), and I'm at $600 already. Haven't even touched CO2 yet. Or fish. Or paid for any plants. Or hardscape. I imagine I'll eventually land on a maybe $1200-1500 price tag on it, once all the dust settles?

And I'm guessing the cost doesn't go up linearly with tank volume. But it still seems like the potential is there for several grand to be on the table.

Anyone got a tank of roughly this size and description that they kept decent running tabs on the total cost of? I would love to know.



And back to your point. It just seems to me like buying a Benz with plastic hubcaps.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Black diamond/beauty blasting sand. I keep my kuhli loaches on it with no barbel issues.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

congrats on the house!

Eco complete sucks. Don't waste your $$

Black diamond blasting sand (medium grit). $8 per 50lb bag at tractor supply co. Just rinse it and plop it right in. I forget who started using it first but they are brilliant and it should be the standard inert sand-like substrate for the hobby by now.

It is HEAVY so plants stay down VERY well in it. Unlike eco complete which is very light and sucks to plant in. Also eco complete basically turns to gravel because it has such large chunks in it. Black diamond is of a small consistent size which is perfect. You can grow anything in it too. I have successfully grown:

Crypts / other heavy root feeders
Blyxa
Stems like rotala, ludwigia, etc
Hair grass carpet (tiny roots)
HC (tiny roots)
more

IMO unless you go with aquasoil or something really nice don't waste your $$$ on crap like flourite or eco complete. Nothing will beat aquasoil but it is not worth the $$$ for large tanks IMO. I could spend $500 on aquasoil or like $40 on black diamond. Pretty easy choice...


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

klibs said:


> congrats on the house!
> 
> Eco complete sucks. Don't waste your $$
> 
> ...


Doesn't sand tend to compact over time?

I would ideally prefer something that's not inert, and Black Diamond is coal slag, which is an aluminum-silicate and I'd imagine would have a terrible CEC? That, and if it's at all deep, I'd expect the lack of flow to cause root rot...


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## quiquik (Dec 13, 2013)

This tank has had bdbs for over a year now. Co2 with modified ei dosing and at the start osmocote plus used sparingly. The Black diamond blasting sand does not pack.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

quiquik said:


> This tank has had bdbs for over a year now. Co2 with modified ei dosing and at the start osmocote plus used sparingly. The Black diamond blasting sand does not pack.


Why wouldn't it pack, though? Are they larger granules than I am imagining?


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

For black, Black diamond blasting sand
for white Pool filter sand


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Because of it's angular shape and relatively uniform size, it doesn't compact over time. It will eventually collect mulm but that's true with all the commonly available plant substrates. The mulm can give the BDBS a decent CEC when it's allowed to accumulate within substrate.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

Monster Fish said:


> Because of it's angular shape and relatively uniform size, it doesn't compact over time. It will eventually collect mulm but that's true with all the commonly available plant substrates. The mulm can give the BDBS a decent CEC when it's allowed to accumulate within substrate.


Isn't sand mixed with mulm basically... soil?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Big tank, IMHO there are 3 choices BDBS or SafeTSorb(CEC) from tractor supply or pool filter sand.
Great bang for the buck, depends on the color of your liking.

If re-doing all 8 of my tanks again they would all be SafeTSorb.
It has proven the best plant growth for me.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

I'm rather surprised; does nobody use active substrates in large tanks?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Ameisen said:


> Isn't sand mixed with mulm basically... soil?


Not really.


You can use active substrates like Aquasoil for larger tanks but the cost is prohibitive for most people. If you can afford paying more than $40 per 9L bag, go for it. Plus you will eventually have to replace the substrate completely once the Aquasoil physically breaks down and reverts to a dusty mud. 

As stated earlier in this thread, if you want a high CEC substrate on a budget, go with Turface.


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## angelsword (May 16, 2009)

HaeSuse said:


> If the $300-400 price tag on substrate is intimidating, then I'm a little worried that you aren't ready to really have a med-high tech 100G+ tank. No offense, not trying to be rude. I myself am not ready for the 100G+ tank, for this very reason (equipment and scape costs).
> 
> Who wants to spend that kind of money on substrate? How many of our tanks include only top of the line equipment and everything else? In fact, DIY is huge in this hobby. I'm not in the least ashamed that I don't buy the manufacturer's filter cartridges or that I really like Sunsun canister filters for example. The OP asked for ideas to save money on substrate not for opinions about whether they were "ready" for a big tank. You did go on to give him some ideas for cheaper options and your experience with them.
> 
> Right now both my 75 and 125 gallon tanks have potting soil topped with sand. The plants like it but I'm growing tired of cleaning up the soil from the top of the sand every time I move a plant. I've had Flourite in the 75 in the past and am now thinking about going back to it again but because of the cost I plan to mix it with a similar looking gravel.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

I should note that I can absolutely afford it nor do I find the price particularly intimidating, it just seems excessive and I suspect that my wife would show her displeasure. I feel like with a lot of the products I'm buying hype more than efficacy (like, seriously, what the heck is 'Bacter 100' or 'Tourmaline BC'? I mean, seriously, tourmaline is literally a _crystalline_ borosilicate compound, it is just a fancy sand that has a lot of voodoo health things associated with it), but I do understand the science behind most of the things (and back when I was younger did a lot of DIY as well). Buying 3" worth of Aquasoil for a 180G seems a bad decision to me - I suspect (as MonsterFish stated) that it will sooner or later break down (it is basically fired soil) and become mud, though I'm also wary of wholly inert substrates including blasting sand and I'm still unsure of why it would be better than straight sand - it's crystalline Al₂SiO₅ (or similar), which isn't going to behave particularly differently from SiO₂ (silica), and actual sand is pretty irregular under a microscope as well, it's just usually smooth. I'm suspect of it in the fashion that I feel you'd get the same results with regular sand under the same conditions, it just looks nice and is cheap (as it's industrial waste). I'm a bit more wary of it as there were posts on other forums and this one in the past where people were suggesting, with approbation, that blasting sand was an active substrate which had nutrients available to the plants. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just a very skeptical person; I did lob an e-mail query over to the people who actually distribute the slag asking for a more clear idea of what precisely it is (I don't have any blasting sand or a microscope so I can't analyze it though I suspect it is a solid crystal). Have not yet received a response. I've seen a few somewhat close-up pictures of it, though, and it looks incredibly abrasive. I may pick up some just so I can run some experiments on it - I want to see how well it lets water flow through it to prevent root anoxia as compared to plain sand amongst other things. I'm just a bit frustrated as I'm a very analytical person, but I haven't seen pretty much _any_ actual experiments with rigor testing substrates, or really analyzing what they are. Only anecdotes and hype (the latter mainly from the companies). If there are any such experiments, I would love to see them.

I'm more interested in at least somewhat active substrates (with a high CEC) such as Flourite (though I have no experience with it) though ideally with small cross-sections and dark colors, though those don't seem to be prevalent as it's usually clay that has a high CEC. I have tried soil... once... never again. _Way_ too messy. My main experience has been with Aquasoil (recently, in smaller tanks) and with Laterite (a long time ago). I know that Eco-Complete has a high CEC though I've never used it, though I'm curious if you can 'presoak' high-CEC substrates in a nutrient-rich bath to gain something similar to Aquasoil's initial availability.

Sorry if this comes off a little ranty - it's been a long day and I have been doing a LOT of reading on many different forums, and am a bit frustrated. I work in a field where we rely on rigor and proper experimentation, but I haven't really found it (and, in fact, find immense amounts of dissent) so I'm having difficulty coming to any conclusions.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

The black diamond sand is popular because it's cheap ($8 for a 50lb bag) and it's a dark colored, inert, sand-like substrate. Not sure where you read that it released nutrients.

The presoak works best for high-CEC substrates like Turface. Otherwise, it will suck the nutrients out of your water if you dump it straight into your tank without loading it first. I've used both Eco-complete and Flourite in the past and they didn't require a nutrient presoak. I think most of the CEC with those two substrates comes from the eventual pockets of mulm that form between the varying sized substrate granules.

Here's an old link to the comparison of CEC values of Flourite and various substrates used for planted tanks.
Substrate Analysis


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Ameisen said:


> I should note that I can absolutely afford it nor do I find the price particularly intimidating, it just seems excessive and I suspect that my wife would show her displeasure. I feel like with a lot of the products I'm buying hype more than efficacy (like, seriously, what the heck is 'Bacter 100' or 'Tourmaline BC'? I mean, seriously, tourmaline is literally a _crystalline_ borosilicate compound, it is just a fancy sand that has a lot of voodoo health things associated with it), but I do understand the science behind most of the things (and back when I was younger did a lot of DIY as well). Buying 3" worth of Aquasoil for a 180G seems a bad decision to me - I suspect (as MonsterFish stated) that it will sooner or later break down (it is basically fired soil) and become mud, though I'm also wary of wholly inert substrates including blasting sand and I'm still unsure of why it would be better than straight sand - it's crystalline Al₂SiO₅ (or similar), which isn't going to behave particularly differently from SiO₂ (silica), and actual sand is pretty irregular under a microscope as well, it's just usually smooth. I'm suspect of it in the fashion that I feel you'd get the same results with regular sand under the same conditions, it just looks nice and is cheap (as it's industrial waste). I'm a bit more wary of it as there were posts on other forums and this one in the past where people were suggesting, with approbation, that blasting sand was an active substrate which had nutrients available to the plants. I'm not trying to put anyone down, I'm just a very skeptical person; I did lob an e-mail query over to the people who actually distribute the slag asking for a more clear idea of what precisely it is (I don't have any blasting sand or a microscope so I can't analyze it though I suspect it is a solid crystal). Have not yet received a response. I've seen a few somewhat close-up pictures of it, though, and it looks incredibly abrasive. I may pick up some just so I can run some experiments on it - I want to see how well it lets water flow through it to prevent root anoxia as compared to plain sand amongst other things. I'm just a bit frustrated as I'm a very analytical person, but I haven't seen pretty much _any_ actual experiments with rigor testing substrates, or really analyzing what they are. Only anecdotes and hype (the latter mainly from the companies). If there are any such experiments, I would love to see them.
> 
> I'm more interested in at least somewhat active substrates (with a high CEC) such as Flourite (though I have no experience with it) though ideally with small cross-sections and dark colors, though those don't seem to be prevalent as it's usually clay that has a high CEC. I have tried soil... once... never again. _Way_ too messy. My main experience has been with Aquasoil (recently, in smaller tanks) and with Laterite (a long time ago). I know that Eco-Complete has a high CEC though I've never used it, though I'm curious if you can 'presoak' high-CEC substrates in a nutrient-rich bath to gain something similar to Aquasoil's initial availability.
> 
> Sorry if this comes off a little ranty - it's been a long day and I have been doing a LOT of reading on many different forums, and am a bit frustrated. I work in a field where we rely on rigor and proper experimentation, but I haven't really found it (and, in fact, find immense amounts of dissent) so I'm having difficulty coming to any conclusions.


Bacter 100 is nothing more than dead bacteria. There is zero point in buying it when a person can easily grow live bacteria that actually does something in a bucket. I dont agree with Tom Barr about many things, this however is true. 

Sand has zero has no holding ability, it's sand. Adding layers of mulm on top of it does not change sand into something else other than dirty sand. 

Flourite works, however, Seachem lies about how it needs little rinsing. Actually it needs a whole lot of rinsing and even then, you will still end up with pockets of dust that will eventually go away, but if you are one to move plants around all the time, be prepared to see dust. It won't be nearly as bad if you rinsed first, but it will make a appearance,

I don't know what you're looking for in a substrate, but there is no such thing as perfect one. All of them from the cheapest to the highly overpriced ADA substrates are going to have their pros and cons. You need to decide what it is you are willing to put up with and what you won't.

P.S. If you are looking for a way to dodge dosing ferts, no matter what you chose, you are going to have to use them regardless of what you choose. ADA will save you some time with that, however, you will still have to dose some which I believe has already been mentioned. 

Eco-Complete does not come with anything in it. It can be dumped into a tank straight from the bag with no dust like Flourite.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

Smooch said:


> Bacter 100 is nothing more than dead bacteria. There is zero point in buying it when a person can easily grow live bacteria that actually does something in a bucket. I dont agree with Tom Barr about many things, this however is true.
> 
> Sand has zero has no holding ability, it's sand. Adding layers of mulm on top of it does not change sand into something else other than dirty sand.
> 
> ...


I'm not looking to avoid dosing ferts, but I want to make sure that the substrate is actually contributing in some fashion (even if it's just making those ferts available to the root systems) while not putting the roots into an anoxic environment. At the same time, I'd rather it not become mud after a time (which appears to be the main worry with ADA Aquasoil, for instance).

Noting on the FAQ for Flourite:

_Cons-Cost, Lacks Key Plant Nutrients, Lots of Rinsing, Possible magnetic pieces (could scratch glass when using magnetic cleaner)

_It this still an actual concern? There's a good chance I will end up with an acrylic tank, and that would scratch the heck out of it.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Ameisen said:


> I'm not looking to avoid dosing ferts, but I want to make sure that the substrate is actually contributing in some fashion (even if it's just making those ferts available to the root systems) while not putting the roots into an anoxic environment. At the same time, I'd rather it not become mud after a time (which appears to be the main worry with ADA Aquasoil, for instance).
> 
> Noting on the FAQ for Flourite:
> 
> ...


My concern is that you are making yourself crazy over substrate. You could spend a year getting bombarded with opinions about this and still not have a tank set up because you've got the paralysis by analysis thing going on. I'm the same way, I understand. I also have the ability to filter through a lot of BS when I see it. I also don't turn inside out with every product ADA tosses on the market as some special thing, ect... I don't play favorites. 

Sand compacts. I don't care anybody says, yes it does and it's nightmare to clean should you have a BGA outbreak. If that is a concern, don't use sand, kitty litter, ect...

I have never used ADA so I don't know if it turns to mud or not. Eco-Complete doesn't as it's lava rock which means it's porous to hold bacteria and some ferts. Flourite does basically the same thing. 

There is no substrate that is going to play nice with a acrylic tank. Substrates scratch glass as well. The only way to avoid that issue is to keep a bare bottom tank.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Ameisen said:


> ..
> Sorry if this comes off a little ranty - it's been a long day and I have been doing a LOT of reading on many different forums, and am a bit frustrated. I work in a field where we rely on rigor and proper experimentation, but I haven't really found it (and, in fact, find immense amounts of dissent) so I'm having difficulty coming to any conclusions.


The reason being is that your reading personal testimonials, probably a lot of bad by people ranting. The bottom line is all of the subtsrates mentioned in this thread work. There isn't one way to go. You can grow healthy, good lucking plant in all of them. Bad experiences many times are people not knowing what to do and blaming the substrate.

BTW even with Aquasoil, you need to dose the water column, and yes plants grow very robust from the beginning but I've had incredible growth with Eco-complete and dosing the water column. I've had incredible growth with Pool Filter Sand. It's really a matter of what you like. Eco is a very clean and easy substrate to work with and in a large tank that could be a very big plus. 

If money isn't a concern(how often do you change substrates anyway) then go with Aquasoil. Although if you haven't used it and you disturb it too much it could cause a big mess since it's a loaded with Ammonia.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Not a rant, but last time I checked, sand does not have the ability to defy the laws of gravity in a fish tank. Anybody that has been to a beach, pond or lake that has sand can freely see that sand does compact. Yes people can have snails and spend all of their time poking their substrate if that is what tickles their funny bones. I prefer to spend my time in other ways without the snails and poking...


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

Smooch said:


> Bacter 100 is nothing more than dead bacteria. There is zero point in buying it when a person can easily grow live bacteria that actually does something in a bucket. I dont agree with Tom Barr about many things, this however is true.
> 
> Sand has zero has no holding ability, it's sand. Adding layers of mulm on top of it does not change sand into something else other than dirty sand.
> 
> ...





houseofcards said:


> The reason being is that your reading personal testimonials, probably a lot of bad by people ranting. The bottom line is all of the subtsrates mentioned in this thread work. There isn't one way to go. You can grow healthy, good lucking plant in all of them. Bad experiences many times are people not knowing what to do and blaming the substrate.
> 
> BTW even with Aquasoil, you need to dose the water column, and yes plants grow very robust from the beginning but I've had incredible growth with Eco-complete and dosing the water column. I've had incredible growth with Pool Filter Sand. It's really a matter of what you like. Eco is a very clean and easy substrate to work with and in a large tank that could be a very big plus.
> 
> If money isn't a concern(how often do you change substrates anyway) then go with Aquasoil. Although if you haven't used it and you disturb it too much it could cause a big mess since it's a loaded with Ammonia.


Are the dirt-based substrates like Aquasoil going to break down into mud over the long-term? I'm not one who likes redoing tanks often, I prefer setting them up and letting them run (and be maintained) for many years.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

To the best of my knowledge, Eco-Complete and Flourite do not turn into mud. I can't speak for Aqua Soil as I've never used it.

There is a thread here http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/29-substrate/27846-ada-aqua-soil-common-misconception.html about the whole Aqua Soil issue, and of course, Tom Barr is a fan.



> It's clay, it will not "decompose", it also has more nutrient content than any other substrate out there.


Many types of kitty litter are also made from clay, so that doesn't mean much. That said, I have serious doubts that he would campaign for Aqua Soil if it were a horrible product, so it's probably safe for the long term.

If you do a search you will find discussions about Aqua Soil knock-offs and according to internet, older versions of Aqua Soil did turn to mud. Whether it's true or not, your guess is as good as mine.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Ameisen said:


> As in other posts, we're buying our first house this month (hopefully) and I want to set up a large tank (100G+). I plan on it being heavily planted, with CO2, _etc_.
> 
> Not sure of the substrate to go with. In the past I've used Aquasoil, but only for much, _much_ smaller tanks. Looking at how much I'd need, I suspect it would be around $300-400 for just the Aquasoil alone.
> 
> ...


Hi Ameisen,

I recommend Safe-T-Sorb #7941 (40# for $6.49 @ Tractor Supply Company). It is a Montmorillonite clay material that contains a multitude of micro-nutrients. It has a high Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) which allows it to absorb nutrients from the water column and make it available to plants in the root zone. It can be 'pre-charged' with nutrients prior to use but it is not necessary. I only pre-charge mine with Ca, Mg, K, and Fe by using a DIY Seachem Equilibrium solution as the first 'wetting' of the material; it is not sharp like blasting sand which can actually scratch glass. It is a clay product, so there are small particles in the bag, I screened mine with 1/8" hardware cloth when it was dry (prior to pre-charging) to remove the 'fines'....I lost about 40% of each bag but ended up with a more uniform size in my 75 gallon.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Ameisen,
> 
> I recommend Safe-T-Sorb #7941 (40# for $6.49 @ Tractor Supply Company). It is a Montmorillonite clay material that contains a multitude of micro-nutrients. It has a high Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC) which allows it to absorb nutrients from the water column and make it available to plants in the root zone. It can be 'pre-charged' with nutrients prior to use but it is not necessary. I only pre-charge mine with Ca, Mg, K, and Fe by using a DIY Seachem Equilibrium solution as the first 'wetting' of the material; it is not sharp like blasting sand which can actually scratch glass. It is a clay product, so there are small particles in the bag, I screened mine with 1/8" hardware cloth when it was dry (prior to pre-charging) to remove the 'fines'....I lost about 40% of each bag but ended up with a more uniform size in my 75 gallon


I'm likely going with acrylic, so even if the substrate is made of cotton it can likely scratch it .


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Ameisen said:


> I'm likely going with acrylic, so even if the substrate is made of cotton it can likely scratch it .


Hi Ameisen,

I was more concerned about what you said about the Kuhli Loaches and not wanting to damage their barbels.


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## Ameisen (Sep 8, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Ameisen,
> 
> I was more concerned about what you said about the Kuhli Loaches and not wanting to damage their barbels.


My biggest issue with Safe-T-Sorb (I find it funny how we repurpose all of these products) is that for the tank design I have in mind, its appearance is not ideal.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Ameisen said:


> My biggest issue with Safe-T-Sorb (I find it funny how we repurpose all of these products) is that for the tank design I have in mind, its appearance is not ideal.


Hi Ameisen,

If you are looking for a darker substrate, that has similar characteristics as STS #7941 then you might try aquariumplants.com substrate Grow-Pro (previously Aqua-Durt) - 5 gallon bucket for $79.99 (free shipping over $175). The Black Diamond color looks grey when dry but dark when wet. It is rumored that it is the same material as Soilmaster Select Charcoal that was discontinued several years ago.

Here is Soilmaster Select Charcoal in my 30 gallon; it's been in use six (6) years


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Best cheap substrate is river sand. It is light brown in the tank. You don't have to rinse it. I filled a 5 gallon bucket at a landscaper co. and paid $3. Then you put root tabs around the needy plants. You could put some Red Bag kitty litter under the sand for CEC.

Bump:


HaeSuse said:


> Cap with ECO, then sand.


Do you mean the ECO that is used in gecko tanks which is like a carpet or the brick?


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

Just to chime in on the debate, I recently bought some ADA Aquasoil Amazonia for a small tank that I'm using to experiment with the DSM. Looks fine so far, even after moving plants around and removing dead plant matter.

Shortly after that, I bought a used 10g tank and the seller gave me a 5g bucket of the substrate they had bought when they originally bought the tank, which was purchased used from another hobbyist. The seller was told that it was Aquasoil, and it looked just like it. I put a small amount of it in the 10g (about an inch and a half deep), then added some water to begin another DSM experiment. A few weeks later, I went to add more water to the 10g because the top layer of Aquasoil was starting to dry out. I was impatient and poured water into one corner, disturbing the Aquasoil. That corner now looks like mud. I'm not trying to grow anything in that corner, and I don't know how old this used Aquasoil is, but this particular batch did mush up after disturbing it a little.

After reading all the great info provided by members in this thread, it seems that nothing is perfect.

- Eco-Complete, SafeTSorb, et cetera: Great for long term use, but takes some time to become nutrient rich. Will not break down over time. Could possibly damage barbels. Cost-effective.

- ADA Aquasoil: Great for short term use. Packed with nutrients from the start, but eventually those nutrients are depleted. Possibility of breaking down into mud. Will not damage barbels. Expensive.

- PFS/BDBS: Great for long term use when paired with root tabs. Inert. Will not turn to mush. May present problems for rooting plants. Cheap.

Your best bet is to pick one, then deal with the problems it will have. Nothing is perfect, and if you keep looking for something that is, you won't find it.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

Hilde said:


> Do you mean the ECO that is used in gecko tanks which is like a carpet or the brick?


No. Carib Sea Eco-Complete.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

Smooch said:


> While it sounds good that people can fill their tanks with kitty litter and have plants grow, kitty litter breaks down and turns to mush. If the layers of kitty litter are deep enough, said mush suffocates plant roots which need oxygen to grow.
> 
> I don't know where this kitty litter thing came from, but whoever the brain child was behind it should get a better understanding of how plants grow. Yeah sure, it's cheap initially, but when all the plants die and need to be replaced suddenly the kitty litter option isn't so cheap any more.



I have no knowledge of such a thing happening. I doubt that it does though, and I just have never seen it. The couple of litter tanks I knew of were reasonably well aged and had no trouble. But was it 2 years? 5? I don't know.

Also, the litter thing has been around a long time. When I first got into the hobby in 2000, whatever forums I was on then (I was on almost all of them that existed at that point), had tons of people experimenting with litter. Also, For what it's worth, @Smooch, the "litter" people use for their tanks is just baked Clay. If anything, it shouldn't break down and turn to mush. It would turn into what I have in my backyard. 100% Red Clay soil, impossible to dig with a shovel, ready to destroy the strongest tiller or ditch-witch on earth, with the density of friggin concrete. 

Anyway, there are more people on this very forum who use baked clay as a substrate, who have had amazing results over many years of tank keeping, than you can shake a stick at. Call it kitty litter or SafeTSorb or baked mineralized clay. Same thing. And a lot of people have excellent results.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

HaeSuse said:


> I have no knowledge of such a thing happening. I doubt that it does though, and I just have never seen it. The couple of litter tanks I knew of were reasonably well aged and had no trouble. But was it 2 years? 5? I don't know.
> 
> Also, the litter thing has been around a long time. When I first got into the hobby in 2000, whatever forums I was on then (I was on almost all of them that existed at that point), had tons of people experimenting with litter. Also, For what it's worth, @Smooch, the "litter" people use for their tanks is just baked Clay. If anything, it shouldn't break down and turn to mush. It would turn into what I have in my backyard. 100% Red Clay soil, impossible to dig with a shovel, ready to destroy the strongest tiller or ditch-witch on earth, with the density of friggin concrete.
> 
> Anyway, there are more people on this very forum who use baked clay as a substrate, who have had amazing results over many years of tank keeping, than you can shake a stick at. Call it kitty litter or SafeTSorb or baked mineralized clay. Same thing. And a lot of people have excellent results.


I guess so. I've owned cats for over 15 years and every clay kitty litter I've used from the cheapest to the most expensive turn to mush and that's just with a cat peeing in it.


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

Huh, mine just clumps. I've had cats my whole 36 years of existence, and not once had "mushy" litter. Mine turns into rock hard pieces of litter/pee bricks. I don't buy anti-clumping, though. And I really have no clue if what I've bought has been clay based or anything else.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

First of all Safe-t-Sorb #7391; Soilmaster Select Charcoal, and Turface Pro-League Grey are not 'kitty litter'. Kitty litter is calcined (fired) clay similar to the products I listed but it is not 'fired' as long in the kiln and therefore is a softer, more absorbent, and more likely to break down in water (or cat pee). What is another calcined clay product - how about Seachem Flourite and people have used than in their tanks for many years. I personally have used calcined clay products since 12/09, used the same substrate over and over, and have not had any 'breakdown' where it has turned to mush.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi All,
> 
> First of all Safe-t-Sorb #7391; Soilmaster Select Charcoal, and Turface Pro-League Grey are not 'kitty litter'. Kitty litter is calcined (fired) clay similar to the products I listed but it is not 'fired' as long in the kiln and therefore is a softer, more absorbent, and more likely to break down in water (or cat pee). What is another calcined clay product - how about Seachem Flourite and people have used than in their tanks for many years. I personally have used calcined clay products since 12/09, used the same substrate over and over, and have not had any 'breakdown' where it has turned to mush.


Nobody said that Safe-t-Sorb was kitty litter, so what's you point? Looking for something offended by?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Smooch,

The way I read this thread it seemed as if calcined clay substrates were being lumped in with kitty litter which is obviously not the case. I'm not offended at all, just clarifying so new folks won't confuse the two....obviously there are may substrates that can work well in planted tanks.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

I'm telling you just go buy like 6 bags of black diamond and call it a day. ~$50 plus a few hours of rinsing and you're done.

Unless you go with something soil-based and spend huge $$$ just stick to black diamond. Stuff like eco complete is worse in every way and people severely overestimate how much of a difference it makes... Using inert sand-like substrate is not going to limit you... The soil stuff is obviously better but IMO not worth spending many hundreds of dollars on in a large tank. That's why you basically never see aquasoil in tanks larger than like 40g...

Honestly I would love to see an experiment growing plants in eco vs black diamond - I would bet the difference is negligible if any at all. Most over-rated substrate... I am convinced claims that it helps plant growth so much are mostly unfounded...


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

@Seattle_Aquarist & @Smooch , RE: litter vs clay

That's my fault. When I set up my tank in the early 2000's, I was on a ton of forums, and kitty litter was a trending substrate choice. That can be proved by some quick google-fu. Also, there were specific brands mentioned, back then, as the only ones to work for this purpose. And with a little more google-fu, you can find that there are manufacturers of calcined fired clay litter. Apparently, it seems, not in the States anymore. But maybe in Europe, is what the webs seem to be saying. 

Regardless, the whole point of what everyone was saying about this, 15-20 years ago, was that you had to find calcined fired Bentonite or Montmorillonite clay litter, for it to work. 

If links are wanted to the things I googled up, I will happily provide them. Most of them are ancient forum posts from 15+ years ago, from all over the world.


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