# Selecting a mazzei for CO2 and closed loop filtration systems



## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Mazzei injectors are a new(er) way of injecting and misting CO2 into the aquarium. They are designed to replace CO2 reactor, needle wheel, or diffuser. The technology behind the injector is provided by the manufacturer here. http://www.mazzei.net/products/injector_info.htm. They are better at describing it than me. The advantage of a mazzei over a glass diffusers, disk diffusers, or needle wheel pumps for misting is that they can be placed inline with a pump and thus keeping equipment OUT of the tank. They require a good amount of pressure to make them work, so not any old canister filter will work. A quick search for mazzei will lead to more discussion about what others have done. I'll compile a list and add it to this thread later. 

I must have spent 12+ hours trying to understand the concept of mazzei's and how to select which model will work best for aquariums and the different types of pumps / filters we use. In all actuality, I wanted to know which mazzei would work for ME. Here I will attempt to explain my system and how I am going about selecting a model to make it easier for others to select theirs. 

Here is my system:
75 gallon tank with bulkheads in the bottom. I run an Iwaki WMD-40RLT to pump water through an ocean clear filter and then back into the tank through another bulkhead. The pump is rated for ~800gph and ~21ft of head pressure. Since mazzeis work best with a lot of pressure on the inlet I thought my pump would be perfect. Most canister filters do not operate at anywhere near this flow or pressure, so canister users do not assume that the same mazzei I select will work for you. 

I have seen some aquarists use Mazzei models 384, 484, and 584 with no REAL good explanation why one works better than the other. 

Some members have told me to use the smaller (384) model. It is know that mazzeis require decent pressures to operate. I was told that the small pumps we use in aquariums would be best suited for the smaller (384) mazzei because they would require less pressure to operate than a larger one. If you use a larger mazzei with lower pressures than the effect is larger bubbles and not as good misting. When I explained my system to an engineer at Mazzei he seemd to think otherwise. I think my pump may be more powerful than the "typical" aquarim pump. 

Here is his quote. The 5psi is the psi that reads on my Ocean Clear filter. I'm not sure if that is actually the pressure that would be in "front" of the injector or not. 

"
Matt,
If I use your stated operating pressure of 5 psi (11.6’), this corresponds to a pump water flow rate of ~ 10.25 gpm. If we pretend there is no pressure loss across the filter, the injector inlet would also be 5 psi. If you wanted to run all of the water through the injector, a large (and expensive) 1.5” Model 1583A would be required. Since you stated that you are going to install the injector on a bypass, there are several injector models that should work properly. I would probably select a Model 484 or 584, rather than the Model 384, as they are both more efficient (require less pressure differential to begin injection) than the Model 384. These models (484 & 584) are available with either ½” or ¾” MNPT threads, and are molded from polypropylene or PVDF.

Whichever model you decide to try, you can purchase it from one of the following distributors:

Ryan Herco – 1-800-848-1141 – www.ryanherco.com

Harrington Plastics – 1-800-213-4528 – http://www.harringtonplastics.com"


I would love to hear others opinions on this subject! I'm sure others will challenge this advice (mrkookm) but this is good so we can actaully start some good discusion about these things. I'm counting on more discussion because I still havn't decided which one to order. 

For those interested, here are the prices from Ryan Herco
 http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm

Matt


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Thank you Matt,

Great write up, I too am building a new office tank with bulkheads on the bottom.
I opted for a GenEx pump similar to the one you have. I also purchased 2 mazzei injectors to try out, like you I was not sure which would work best.
But now after reading this I think Im glad I ordered 2 models to be sure.
I do plan on using my pump only for powering the mazzei ONLY.
I will let you know how my set up works as soon as its plumbed up.

Regards, Orlando


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Here is how I plan to plumb mine...
Intake > Pump > Ocean Clear > Mazzei and bypass> Outlet. 

Orlando, 
I think running a pump solely with a mazzei would be best if you could make it work that way. The fact that as the filter clogs the flow would be reduced, and therefore reduce the efficiency or function of the mazzei. BUT, if you have a bypass, you can direct more or less flow to the mazzei as needed. The gentleman at mazzei also suggested it would be best to have the mazzei right at the outflow of the pump, but this will not work for me, because (1) in order to get mist in to my tank the mazzei has to be after the filter and (2) I cannot put my filter before the pump because water has to be pushed through the filter, not pulled. 

Which models did you buy and intent to try?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I have a 584 and 384. One has 1/2"mpt and the other is 3/4" mpt..

So,,its mod here and there I guess to see which works best..


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I havn't really seen anyone use a 484...any reasons for that?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

584 and 384...


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

I totally agree with what the Mazzei rep said regarding the volume that can be pumped by using a bigger Mazzei, but is this what we are after? If that's the case why not just put the Co2 line to the pump inlet and get Co2 in the tank at high rates, we do not need a Mazzei to do that.....agree? Do you really think that the Mazzei rep even remotely understands the level of efficiency we are after with what we are trying to do  Their expertise is aerating ponds & mixing chemicals / air in large bodies of water. 

What we are after here is efficiency with our Mazzei implementation, sure the concept is the same, but we are after much greater efficiency with all of the following.... mist for better dispersion (not bubbles), dwell time & dissolution. 

Take a spray bottle for example 'the kind that can be screwed clockwise to restrict (create more pressure/force) or counter clockwise (less pressure & squirts more easily). 

1) Which direction would mist better and why do you think it would?
2) Which direction would effectively cause the output dispersion to all areas when sprayed? 
3) Which will cause the output to dwell longer in the air?

Now taking all the above into account what size Mazzei (384~584) would yield better results with your Iwaki WMD-40 *for our needs*?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> 1) Which direction would mist better and why do you think it would?
> 2) Which direction would effectively cause the output dispersion to all areas when sprayed?
> 3) Which will cause the output to dwell longer in the air?


LOL! I love this analogy I would turn it clockwise so it mists, disperses, and dwells better. :icon_lol: 

I completely understand where you're coming from when you say the rep has little idea of what we are trying to do. I guess I forgot to tell him I wanted some mist of CO2, not complete diffusion (is this the right word?) 

So a 384 then, huh?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> So a 384 then, huh?


Still not sure huh 

I use a 384 on my 90gal with a 3ft open sump and a CPR 150 overflow also with no seal or cover and I have excellent co2 response / levels at all times. 

You have a 75gal with a canister= you will kill fish very easily.


On a different note:

Improved Mazzei loop (top)


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Yeah, I'm mostly sure. Just wanted to see a response. Nice loop by the way. So how concerned should ppl be about too fast of a pH drop? What are the precautions?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

mrkookm said:


> On a different note:
> 
> Improved Mazzei loop (top)


Nice.... What is the reasons for using the mazzei on the main 
line as in your picture as opposed to having it on the bypass line?
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

That is a good question, Id also like to know...


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

I also have one more question regarding mazzei performance. What are we looking for with these setups? Let's say you have no way to check if it's working properly by measuring co2 or using a drop checker, is there something we should aim for when using these, mist, suction etc.? I hope my question comes across the way I mean it to. 
I know the objective is to get good mist and dissolution of co2, but where does the suction come into the whole thing? With my setup, it seems like I can get good mist whether there is a lot of suction or hardly any suction, that's where my question comes in.
Thanks,
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Are you speaking of suction via the inlet port on the mazzei?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> What is the reasons for using the mazzei on the main
> line as in your picture as opposed to having it on the bypass line?
> John


To get more pressure applied to the inlet due to the direct path.




> but where does the suction come into the whole thing?


No...it's not the suction we are after and we ceratainly do not have a need for it either because our cylinder is already under intense pressures which will go where ever it wants to  What we are after is creating the most pressure we can through the injector. This is what makes the super fine mist & efficient dissolution in the water possible as the Co2 gets ripped into a million bits under high pressure flow.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mrkookm said:


> To get more pressure applied to the inlet due to the direct path. What we are after is creating the most pressure we can through the injector. This is what makes the super fine mist & efficient dissolution in the water possible as the Co2 gets ripped into a million bits under high pressure flow.


Adding to this, you can dial in the misting and the dissolved rates very well using the ball valves. It's pretty easy to adjust whatever level of mist vs dissolved you want.

Careful as mentioned, these things are extremely efficient and rapid in the addition of CO2, faster than anyone' Drop checker or pH measurements.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

From: http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm

What are some of the very good pumps that will work with the following Mazzei Injectors:
6030.015 Mazzei 0384 PP Mazzei Inj ½" GRPP for $34.50 
6030.021 Mazzei 0584-C GRPP LQD INJ ½" MT BLK GRPP for $34.50
or
6030.020 Mazzei 0484 GRPP LQD Inj ½" MT BLK GRPP for $34.50
6030.030 Mazzei 0584 GRPP LQD INJ ¾" MT BLK GRPP for $34.50

To my knowledge, no one has mentioned the smaller 6030.010 0287 GRPP LQD INJ ½" MT BLK GRPP for $24.50.

I'm wanting to use one in an ~ 40 gallon aquarium.


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## Jens (Apr 21, 2006)

mrkookm said:


>


mrkookm,

What size PVC did you use?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

1" PVC was used because my pump has 1" in/out.

Here is the order:

1" PVC Tee -> 1" to 3/4" reducer -> 3/4" unions -> 3/4" to ½" threaded reducer.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I just ordered a 384. It should arive next week some time. When I hook it up I'll update to let everyone know how it works.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Left C said:


> From: http://webcat.ryanherco.com/products/829/110/110/829110110.cfm
> 
> What are some of the very good pumps that will work with the following Mazzei Injectors:
> 6030.015 Mazzei 0384 PP Mazzei Inj ½" GRPP for $34.50
> ...


Not sure about the 284 and how small of a pump you could use with that...

I know I'll be using my Iwaki WMD-40RLT (800gph/21ft head). Iwakis are very good long lasting pumps.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

helgymatt said:


> I just ordered a 384. It should arive next week some time. When I hook it up I'll update to let everyone know how it works.


I think you will be very satisfied using the 384 with your size pump. I've been playing around with my setup which is similar to yours and it looks like it will do a great job. It's very hard to describe the mist you can get from these, but now you'll be able to see it for yourself.
John


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> To get more pressure applied to the inlet due to the direct path.
> ....
> No...it's not the suction we are after and we ceratainly do not have a need for it either because our cylinder is already under intense pressures which will go where ever it wants to  What we are after is creating the most pressure we can through the injector. This is what makes the super fine mist & efficient dissolution in the water possible as the Co2 gets ripped into a million bits under high pressure flow.




Just to elaborate on what mrkookm was saying here, its Dynamic Pressure that is the key not Static Pressure (which is straight head from water surface masured o the point of interest). The elbows and fittings would create additional loses to the dynamic pressure in this instance if it were on the loop side. The staight run is ALWAYS the most efficient!

Nice plumbing work BTW.

So, I presume you throttle the flow through the mazzei using the ball valve on the loop? If that were the case, would it be safe to say that a smaller pump _could _be possible?

Need little gadget.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I cant wait to see how well this is going to workout. Thanks all!


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Orlando said:


> I cant wait to see how well this is going to workout. Thanks all!


:bounce: I share your enthusiasm. 

As a side note...quoting the gentlemen at Mazzei when I told him I could build myself a bypass for the 384 rather than buying one from them. 

"You aquarium guys sure our self-motivated do-it-your-selfers, I'm sure building one of these bypasses is right up your alley." Apparently he has spoken with many aquarists and they all seem to be motivated to try new things and experiment with different ideas. 

I think that pretty much sums up this hobby pretty well!


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Heck yea!

What other hobby lets you play with blinding lights, high pressure gas, water and electricity all in one area just to do grow some weeds that grow in some random rivers that most people will just walk by and not even notice! 

I mean come on... that just _SCREAMS _good times!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, I've not found adding 4 disc that useful for a large tank vs the venturi. So it's more born out of need than anything.

When you are not happy with it, you keep trying to tweak and torque things a bit. Same with the scape, or the plant growth or whatever.

You get better with time and the first few goes are not that great and pretty, but you know the general idea will work very well. I decided to switch back to sumps, bag filters, and venturi fed system instead of in line systems. I think the trade offs are not worth it for me.

Still, you need to go down and figure and think about each trade off and what is easier and better for you.

For me the sumps are great because:

1. I use venturi diffusion, I have no issues getting and dialing in any CO2 levels I desire and rapidly at that. If you have under powered systems that cannot respond nor as as efficient, then..........you might bad mouth the sumps/wet/drys etc. However, they are much better at degassing at night and keeping O2 higher during the day should you add too much CO2, adds another layer of buffering

2. I use about 1/2 the electrical pump energy wattage for the same flow

3. Plumbing is about 5X easier

4. Cleaning is easier

5. No water level changes in the tank

6. Easy to add other media and has a much larger volume than any canister made.

7. Can use any submersible heat, not just the Lifeguard and Hydor.

8. Better mechanical filtration using bag filters which do not infleucne flow rates

9. Less noise, actually about 1/2 or slightly less in the area of my house using a decibel meter(40 vs 20). This includes adding a hofner gruggle buster on the standpipe, but the external pumps are loud, use 2x the electric. 

10. bad point is the built in over flow in the tank 

Given those trade offs, the Venturi is far easier to add, as is any type of CO2 device in a sump.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Well, I've not found adding 4 disc that useful for a large tank vs the venturi. So it's more born out of need than anything.
> 
> When you are not happy with it, you keep trying to tweak and torque things a bit. Same with the scape, or the plant growth or whatever.
> 
> ...


Tom, I'm wondering if you posted this in the wrong thread?? The part about the 4 disks threw me off. I'm not getting the main point of your post, other than your liking of sumps?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

And Tom, don't you use an inline system on your 180, with external pumps and a mazzei or did you switch it out for a sump?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

gmccreedy said:


> So, I presume you throttle the flow through the mazzei using the ball valve on the loop? If that were the case, would it be safe to say that a smaller pump could be possible?


If I was using a dedicated mazzei pump then sure, a smaller (depending on tank size and how small you want mist to be) would work well. I do not have a dedicated pump, my pump also feeds my system so I need the loop to force flow to go through the Mazzei by 'closing' off the main flow slightly.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Gotcha. Makes sense.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

helgymatt said:


> And Tom, don't you use an inline system on your 180, with external pumps and a mazzei or did you switch it out for a sump?


The mazzei is fine for in line applications using canisters, but, you have to be more careful, with sumps, much less so. Ask yourself why that might be.
Also, looking at the mazzei implementation/addition, the sump design is much easier, can use less electric etc.

Not the wrong thread at all.
Very applicable to the selection of a mazzei and CO2 misting.

Basically you can get more out of it and for less, while I decided to really pursue the canister approach, and I still use them etc, I also look at other systems and weigh the trade offs there, not everyone is going to need/want a 150Watt external pump, big OC canister etc.
Many use wet/drys or sumps.

I have both so I can compare notes.
I also have a nice O2 meter and a CO2 meter.
Few, if anyone here does.

My concern is more for the fish and the O2 levels/CO2 levels.
Some have rightfully warned folks about gassing their fish.
Not hard to do with a canister and mazzei.




Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

After much thinking I decided to try an all canister setup to see how much less Co2 I will need to use to get Co2 concentration high in my 90gal. This will be a perfect time to set the cans up since I had to tear down everything anyway and if I don't like them I can always reinstate my sump.

With the new change I had to redo my Mazzei loop to bypass the cans and put the enriched water after the cans. This was done for two reasons: As I was testing my earlier loop config I found if air injection was too high it caused an airlock situation which literally was forcing the water out the can. This I'm sure would not have been the case had I used Co2 at normal output to test but I chose to test at full Mazzei suction to see what would happen if too much Co2 got in. I saw what I needed to see and it concerned me enough to scrap that setup. I kept on thinking what if I was away and for whatever reason somethin freaky happened?

The second is pressure. I wanted to be able to pump as much water through my mazzei with the least restriction possible for max performance. While my pump is able to handle a fair amount of restriction with ease, my quick test earlier had me thinking of consistency as the filter gets more clogged.

Here are some pcs as I am setting up along the way:

*Water enters the NU-Clear and exits the OC.* If I decide to keep the Cans I will go all NU-Clear. They are inded superior to OC IMO.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Mr.K Comes through with the pics and very nice plumbing work.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks Orlando! I'm trying to follow Scolleys footsteps but mine is no where as elaborate as his . Mine is actually basic really.

BTW Scolley was right.... PVC fittings is expensive at this level


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

You and I both Mr.K,

I have a new custom tank Im working on this week that will have the dedicated pump for the Mazzei....I have lots of plumbing to do.

I will post my build here as I go..


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Nice work Mr.K. Is the black piece a UV sterilizer? Why do you think Nu- Clear is better than Ocean Clear. Just curious. 

Tom, I get your points now. Thanks for clarifying.

Matt


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

It looks like Gamma UV, I hear people have trouble getting a good seal on those OC's..... How is your NC working out so far?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Nice work Mr.K. Is the black piece a UV sterilizer?


Yes. Current Gamma 25watt UV



> Why do you think Nu- Clear is better than Ocean Clear. Just curious.


The main reason is its sealing for both the the air release and the main clamp seal. It is so much better and actually easier to work with.

The OC kept on leaking even though I put some elbow grease into tightening the lid. It was even more apparent when I was pressure testing the the lines by closing off the return ball valve and had the pump going, at 18psi the water was literally trickling constantly and I had to use a PVC pipe to knock it shut . I need more lengthy testing done but I'll do that tonight after I finalize my loop.

The same applied to the air release as well I had to use a wrench to tightening and because it is so tight I will not be useing that realease. I can see already constant open/close of this is going to make it fail.

I find it hard to believe that their canisters can't handle a pump with 39ft head pressure, but I think it's becoming more clear they were designed for smaller pumps. The NU-CLEAR has not sprung a leak under pressure but like I said I will test for longer tonight after new loop is finalized.

Other thing I like is the 1" In/Out ports.


*helgymatt:*

When my pump was in normal mode, operational pressures was 12~13psi, what is yours with the Iwaki?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> How is your NC working out so far?


*NU-CLEAR filter is top notch* and the way to go if you are thinking of going with this type of canister setup.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Very nice Mrkookm. I'm liking it so far. Although, I'm wondering if the flexible pvc works just like the rigid stuff in terms of primer and gluing? Also, is the the flexible pvc expensive and where did you get it?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Spa tubing(pvc) is very nice because you don't loose flow. You have nice smooth transitions. No 90* Angles.


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

Orlando said:


> Spa tubing(pvc) is very nice because you don't loose flow. You have nice smooth transitions. No 90* Angles.


So you just glue it like you would normal pvc?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

You want to use the Green Label jar.Heavy Duty


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

*Mrkookm,*My pressure with my Ocean Clear is at 7. It was 7 when i set it up and it has been 7 after months of use. Also, I have had no problem with the seal on mine. Works like a charm. It think your pump must be much more powerful than mine. Also, I use the OC 340. If I ever get another one, I would try the NU-Clear, but thats not because I don't like the OC....just because I like to try new things 

This OC and NU-clear talk makes me wish there was a thread dedicated to it. I found there was very little discussion about these filters on planted tank forums when I was trying to select one. Maybe we could change the title of the thread to include filter talk also??

Matt


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

The new week is coming along with all the goods to start plumbing the tank..
Sometimes I wish I could fast-forward through time.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> *Mrkookm,*My pressure with my Ocean Clear is at 7. It was 7 when i set it up and it has been 7 after months of use.


Are you saying that you haven't had the need to clean the micron filter in 7 months?



> Also, I have had no problem with the seal on mine. Works like a charm. It think your pump must be much more powerful than mine. Also, I use the OC 340.


Since tapping it shut with the PVC I've found no leaks so far. I am currently running it at full flow capacity and so far so good. Pressure testing was done earlier and it too went well.

It is now leak free.



> If I ever get another one, I would try the NU-Clear, but thats not because I don't like the OC....just because I like to try new things


I understand 



> This OC and NU-clear talk makes me wish there was a thread dedicated to it. I found there was very little discussion about these filters on planted tank forums when I was trying to select one.


I agree, I too found little or no information out there thats why I ended up buying the 2 to see which would work better/suit my needs best.



> Maybe we could change the title of the thread to include filter talk also??


It's your thread...why not 


Here are some more updated pics showing some minor changes to the loop. The main difference is the addition of spa-flex here & there to reduce vibration. I also took some pics of my gauge showing normal PSI and pressure test PSI.

*OC normal PSI*









*NU normal PSI*









*OC pressure PSI
*









*NU pressure PSI*


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> Here are some more updated pics showing some minor changes to the loop. The main difference is the addition of spa-flex here & there to reduce vibration. I also took some pics of my gauge showing normal PSI and pressure test PSI.


It keeps getting better. I'm loving that flex pvc.:icon_smil Any chance we can get some tank pics that show the bulk head fittings?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Wats sup B!

I have nothing in the tank right now as I am testing still, but I'll take some pics...gimme a few minutes.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Mrkookm,
My OC has an "in" and and "out" The "in" is at the top and the "out" is at the bottom. I wonder if the Nu-clears are the same? If so, then your plumbing of one of your filters is back-wards. 

I can't tell which direction the water flows in your system because there is a lot of piping gong all over. But if I were to guess I would say that you have the water going into the Nu-clear first and then to the OC. IF that is the case, the OC is not plumbed right. But if I consider what filter media type you will have in the OC, maybe it doesn't matter. Mine has a filter sleeve like your Nu-clear does and the water HAS to go in the top. But, if you have polybeads in there or something maybe the "In/out" is not so important???

And about the filter cleaning...I really think it could go 7 months without cleaning. But what I was saying was that the pressure was still the same (7psi) after many months without cleaning.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I think I got the flow figured out...lets see if this is right

In from tank on the right > pump behind the scene > out to ball valve that controls flow to mazzei > main line goes to Nu-clear > then to OC > Main line reconnects with ouput from mazzei > all water flow through UV and then > out to two different bulkeads??

This is an interesting mazzei bypass system! I would have never thought to do it like that. Oh yeah...awesome plumb work.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

preston4479 said:


> It keeps getting better. I'm loving that flex pvc. Any chance we can get some tank pics that show the bulk head fittings?


The bottom right is my drain to pump, bottom left is my returm number one and top is return # 2 which will cause circular motion in the tank when water level is where it needs to be. Return # 1 will be at substrate level so the height will be adjusted.



























Leak



















Drain for my hose we spoke about.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> I think I got the flow figured out...lets see if this is right
> 
> In from tank on the right > pump behind the scene > out to ball valve that controls flow to mazzei > main line goes to Nu-clear > then to OC > Main line reconnects with ouput from mazzei > all water flow through UV and then > out to two different bulkeads??


Yep you got it :thumbsup:



> But if I consider what filter media type you will have in the OC, maybe it doesn't matter.


Hit it on the head again  I'm using bio filtration from my sump in the can instead of what came with it, so for my setup it will be better if the flow comes from bottom up as it will get better flow spread.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> Yep you got it :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> 
> Hit it on the head again  I'm using bio filtration from my sump in the can instead of what came with it, so im my setup it will be better if the flow come from bottom up as it will get better flow spread.


 
Sweet.

Is that a glass cages tank and stand?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Yes it is. The stand is great but the acrylic tank sucks regarding it's look, but it is built like a tank. I was a newb then and will not make the mistake of buying from them again. 

I will go rimless next and not from them either.

BTW I will have a black background so you will not see pipe work in the cake and the return pie in the tank is going to be painted black with special 'marine' paint (thank to preston4479) for that suggestion.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Yes, my tank is the rimless 75 from them. I spent a lot of time scraping of silicone they slopped all over the place. In the end it looks pretty good, but that silicone is a PAIN to get off. With lots of elbow grease and a razor blade it does come off though. 

You might want to look into using some Locline fan nozzles for your outputs. The "outs" you are using may not direct water like you want it and it may be too dispersed in all directions. I use a Y locline to two 1/2" tubes and then to the 1" fans. Works well with my pump/flow


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Yes I have thought about the lockline a while back but the flow from my pump is high and when a small nozzle is used it crates a high speed jet almost. With a bigger opening the flow will be more dispersed like you've said, but that's what I'm looking to get. Trust me I will have circular motion with the kind of flow I have even though its spread out


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Mods please change the title of thread to "Selecting a mazzei for CO2 and closed loop filtration systems"


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> his is an interesting mazzei bypass system! I would have never thought to do it like that. Oh yeah...awesome plumb work.


Thanks BTW  I'm pleased with the end result myself


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> Thanks BTW  I'm pleased with the end result myself


I wonder how many trips you have made to the plumbing section?:hihi: I'm sure there will be plenty more. I keep getting more and more ideas from your plumbing pics. I never thought of mixing the unions with a slip on one end and threads on the other. I'm going to do that on my pump and get rid of the barbed fittings and use some of the flex-fittings. Thanks!


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Some pics of the pluming and equipment on my tank. 
















































What I am going to replace with a mazzei









I'll pose some new pics when I get the mazzei hooked up and redo some of the plumbing on this thing. Thanks mrkookm for making me go out and spend some more money 

And here was the tank a few days after set-up








Just ignore the filter on the left with the diffusor. That was temporary. 









Also here is a link to my journal over on APC
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-75-gallon-rimless-w-bulkhead-filtration.html


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> I wonder how many trips you have made to the plumbing section?


Way too many times and it wasn't exactly cheap.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

^^^I new this was coming..


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Ok, I received my Gen X pump with the Mazzei's and Loc-Lines, just need to start mapping out the plumbing and all the other stuff. Still waiting on the tank.
Hopefully it will be ready by Friday...


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

While I was testing my final loop yesterday I couldn't help but notice both the NU and OC both expands whenever the pump initially turns on. The OC expansion is a little more dramatic due to the top being flat so it showed more as th top literally gains about .5~1mm in height. 

My plumbing work is done here, the loop is finalized and I have no leaks from either canisters or my plumbing.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I was able to piece this together in very little time..Lets hope it works..


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Orlando said:


> Ok, I received my Gen X pump with the Mazzei's and Loc-Lines, just need to start mapping out the plumbing and all the other stuff. Still waiting on the tank.
> Hopefully it will be ready by Friday...


Orlando, what model Gen-x pump are you going to be using with your set up?
Also, I was able to play around with my mazzei set up a bit more. They really do drop the ph quickly as Tom and mrkookm warned. My co2 dropped from 7.0 to 6.3 in about 40 minutes and was still going down when I shut it off.I just tested it for a short time, but it is very responsive. Those who are setting these things up soon I'm sure will be very happy with the results. 
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi John,

Im using a PCX40 to power the mazzei....


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Nice loop Orlando. What sucks though is that you will need to make 2 to test both 384 & 584 Mazzei's. It will be a good test though :icon_surp


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Yup! I have 2 loops made already...Its cheap build and only takes a few minutes at most. Should be fun little test.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I can say that there is nothing speedy about Ryan Herco. I ordered my Mazzei on the 20th. 29th today and they still havn't recieved the piece at there distribution center. Hopefully I should have it by the middle of next week (2 weeks later!)


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

which model did you order?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Orlando said:


> which model did you order?


384...they didn't have it on hand and had to have it shipped from Mazzei corp first - Maybe it is mazzei that is not so speedy.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

*384*

good choice :thumbsup. It will not dissapoint


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Wish I found this thread earlier, I ordered the 584 with the logic that it will allow water to move over the venturi faster than the smaller model. I guess I'll report on what I think after I have sometime to play with it.

Also sticky this thread for a while? Look like mazzei will be a hot topic for some time until everyone get a good understanding of what and how it works.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> I ordered the 584 with the logic that it will allow water to move over the venturi faster than the smaller model


This is why everyone buys the bigger model  I'm not saying that it isn't going to work, but it will need more force to make the mist as fine/dissolve Co2 as well as the 384. If the logic is true why not buy a 1078P?...see what I mean


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Well I'm sure it can be make to work, but that mean I have to close that ball valve further to increase the pressure differential. I wouldn't have to close as much if I went with the smaller model. In the end I'm trading throughput for pressure, not what I want to do in my underpowered system. It make perfect sense now..what was I thinking!!!

I notice Mazzei engineer converted psi to flow rate, I want to know what the formula for that. Doesn't need to be accurate, I just want a look-up table or simple formula with pipe diameter vs psi => flow rate. Anyone know where I can find that?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> In the end I'm trading throughput for pressure, not what I want to do in my underpowered system. It make perfect sense now..what was I thinking!!!


Yes you have. The downside is that you'll need to use more Co2 which is going to give you bigger mist because enough force will not be going through to break the co2. The important thing is that you'll be able to maintain Co2, just not as aesthetically & efficiently as a 384 or if a higher head pump was used.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

Funny that we were talking about heat last. I came home to day to find that I screwed up my temp controller settings and my temps got up to a _cool_ 89º. I don't have any heaters in my setup, my ambient temp is 77º, but having my light sit directly on my tank had a big impact.

I'm surprised the few plants I had in there looked ok :icon_surp

I had to cool down system 11º


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

helgymatt said:


> 384...they didn't have it on hand and had to have it shipped from Mazzei corp first - Maybe it is mazzei that is not so speedy.


AES has a 384 in stock. They are about 2X more expensive, but they come with 1/4" barbed ozone safe check valve. 
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3538/Mazzei-Venturi-Injectors/MAZZEI INJECTORS/0


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I finished another loop with 1" fittings and the larger mazzei for testing purposes..Will post next week on results.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

What are some of the smaller (less head and gph) pumps that can be used with the 384 Mazzei venturi? http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3538/Mazzei-Venturi-Injectors/MAZZEI INJECTORS/0

This is for a 37g. It has a 30" x 12" footprint and it is 22" tall.

Or, is it too small for a Mazzei?


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## jazzlvr123 (Jul 16, 2007)

can you use a small mazzei on a filter with relatively low flow such as an ehiem 2215? ir is that out of the question?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Wont work,^^^ The Mazzei needs pressure behind it to function properly..


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

What would be the lowest gph and lowest head pressure for a pump needed to run the 384 and still get excellent misting?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> What would be the lowest gph and lowest head pressure for a pump needed to run the 384 and still get excellent misting?


Using a dedicated pump for the Mazzei with 12ft head would apply about 5psi at the Mazzei inlet, so this would be minimum IMO. 16.1ft would be very good and any higher would be excellent.

I'm applying about 7psi at my Mazzei inlet and my performance is borderline excellent and that might be an understatement.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Thanks for the info.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

jazzlvr123 said:


> can you use a small mazzei on a filter with relatively low flow such as an ehiem 2215? ir is that out of the question?


See the info I've suggested for low flow applications in line.
The AM reducing tee's(I have them on my two smaller tanks at home), are fine, but you can DIY even better.

Use a small good air stone or even a smaller disc and use a similar reducing air line tee with a 1-2" diameter PVC with some 1/2 barbed adapters on each end and you can make your own something similar to this:

http://www.calaqualabs.com/

the 17mm will work pretty well, careful, they are made out of glass and I tend to break things made out of glass like this.

At higher pressures, then you can go to the venturi valves.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

OK, I got the Mazzei 384 all plumbed in and in action. Extremely tiny bubbles are swarming all over the aquarium and the plants are pearling like CRAZY. I still have to tune in the bubble rate and right CO2 amount. Again, as said before the bubble rate really is not accurate as the venturi "sucks" the bubbles out of the regulator much faster than normal reactors. 

Here are some photos...

This is the mazzei plumbed in with a bypass on the output of the reactor just before the bulkhead output to the tank. If I did it over again I would use the 45 degree elbows instead of the 90, but in the end I don't think it makes much of a difference. Because of space and simplicity and used the 90's. I was also going to ditch the clear tubing for SPA-FLEX but Lowes does not have the 3/4" I wanted. The clear tubing and barbs will work just fine.








Here is the input from the bulkheads and the pump leading to the filter.








Pressure in the Ocean clear went up to 8 or 8 (from 7) after closing the ball valve some for the mazzei bypass









Thanks for all the help from everyone on this project and I'll update in a few days when I get the CO2 tuned in. 

Thanks,
Matt


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

That just looks awesome. Man I want to play! I think this may be something worth trying in my next project.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Extremely tiny bubbles are swarming all over the aquarium


Lets not confuse the masses helgy, we don't want them thinking we are getting diffuser / needle wheel type performance here...you meant 'mist' not bubbles...right :hihi:



> Pressure in the Ocean clear went up to 8 or 8 (from 7) after closing the ball valve some for the mazzei bypass


The loop looks great Helgymatt, but I would make one change to the layout.

To get better performance you should split the out from the pump to 2 separate lines, one direct to the Mazzei and the other to the OC. With this config you would be able to really dial in the mist quality output then because you wouldn't have the OC wasting some of that pressure. Furthermore the OC pressure would go down and not up as well.


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## c_sking (Aug 4, 2008)

mrkookm said:


> Lets not confuse the masses helgy, we don't want them thinking we are getting diffuser / needle wheel type performance here...you meant 'mist' not bubbles...right :hihi:


Too late, but thats ok I am starting to get it all straight. I may not know what but its getting straight.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> Lets not confuse the masses helgy, we don't want them thinking we are getting diffuser / needle wheel type performance here...you meant 'mist' not bubbles...right :hihi:.


Of course...MIST, not bubbles



mrkookm said:


> The loop looks great Helgymatt, but I would make one change to the layout.
> 
> To get better performance you should split the out from the pump to 2 separate lines, one direct to the Mazzei and the other to the OC. With this config you would be able to really dial in the mist quality output then because you wouldn't have the OC wasting some of that pressure. Furthermore the OC pressure would go down and not up as well.


hmmm...I wish I would have known this before, not only because these plumbing parts start to add up after a while, but I spent the whole evening hooking this thing up. But not your fault Do you think these changes are really worth it? If so, where would I put the ball valve to control the flow to the mazzei? Would it go in between the "split" and the OC?

A couple more questions...how do you gage how much CO2 you are injecting? I don't think I can really rely on the bubble counter so should I just go by the drop checker and watch the plants? 

Also, can anyone comment on what reduction in flow I am causing by using the three 90 degree elbows? 

Matt


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> *OC normal PSI*


To discuss the issue of changing my bypass further, I see that MY OC now has the same pressure as YOUR OC (as seen in the pic you posted). So, I'm not so much concerned about my 1-2 PSI increase after adding the mazzei and bypass. Unless I find that the mazzei is not working how I want it, and you insist otherwise, I think I keep it how it is. 

If I WERE to replumb mine I assume I should do something like this (in the second pic)?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Do you think these changes are really worth it? If so,


Well if you want the best performance then yes, it's definitely worth it.



> where would I put the ball valve to control the flow to the mazzei? Would it go in between the "split" and the OC?


Correct. As you close off the flow to the OC it forces more water to the Mazzei. 



> A couple more questions...how do you gage how much CO2 you are injecting? I don't think I can really rely on the bubble counter so should I just go by the drop checker and watch the plants?


I have'nt used a bubble counter in several months (gave up after experiencing the same thing you are now ) so I've learnt to adjust my Co2 according to how my plants are responding. I still do have my DC in the tank as well though because I like to see the color changes as time goes by. 

Note how low mine is off the substrate (½~3/4"), do the same to help prevent errors. Can you see the 'distracting' mist the reactor guys talk about 
:icon_wink


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> To discuss the issue of changing my bypass further, I see that MY OC now has the same pressure as YOUR OC (as seen in the pic you posted). So, I'm not so much concerned about my 1-2 PSI increase after adding the Mazzei and bypass. Unless I find that the mazzei is not working how I want it, and you insist otherwise, I think I keep it how it is.


The pressure that you are seeing is independent of the Mazzei's working pressure and is actually what's left over after the Mazzei has had it's fill after I've adjusted it to my liking. You on the other hand are loosing valuable pressure to pump water through the OC where it isn't needed. The more pressure through the Mazzei the finer the mist / better the dissolving will be, but if you're content with current performance then that works too. 



> If I WERE to replumb mine I assume I should do something like this (in the second pic)?


Yes something like that. You do not want the mist from the Mazzei going directly in the OC due the possibility of an airlock situation.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

OK...I think I'll work on redoing it. First I need to get some PVC Y's and some 3/4" spa-flex. Anybody know where to get those locally? Lowes does not have either.


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Orlando said:


> I finished another loop with 1" fittings and the larger mazzei for testing purposes..Will post next week on results.


Orlando, could you take a pics or let me know the length of the 384 vs 584. I have 584 now and wondering how I would interchange to between the two if I were to get 384. I'll do the same test you're doing, but I like to be able to alternate by just flipping valves.

Thanks.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

They are the same length. I made the 384 with 3/4 pvc and 584 with 1" pvc.
So all I have to do is disconnect the loops and exchange.

You can never have to many Unions.

Regards, Orlando


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Some have said that you can hardly see the mist, only when you have your face right up to the glass. I can definately see the mist in my tank from a few feet back. Can someone explain to me how fine the mist should be and what to shoot for.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

It is very hard to explain the size of the mist. I think that dust or smoke like describes it better. Mrkookm made a post a while back on the barr report with a video of the mist coming from his mazzei, that's the best representation of it I've seen anywhere. I'll see if I can find the video.
John


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Some have said that you can hardly see the mist, only when you have your face right up to the glass. I can definately see the mist in my tank from a few feet back. Can someone explain to me how fine the mist should be and what to shoot for.


I can think of 2 things to cause the bigger mist for you: 

1) Lack of pressure caused by the plumbing setup 
2) Co2 rate too high 

I would start with a re-plumb work and then tweak from there. 

Jgb is using a dedicated pump for his Mazzei, so like me, he's applying lots of pressure to the Mazzei which would make our mist smaller.

See my DC pic above can you see any mist? As a matter of fact Ive posted numerous pics with my plants up close and personal, have you ever noticed any mist in my tank?


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

Can anyone explain why the prices on the 384 range from $35 - $102?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> I can think of 2 things to cause the bigger mist for you:
> 
> 1) Lack of pressure caused by the plumbing setup
> 2) Co2 rate too high
> ...


I understand that the mist does not show up in your pictures. Does this mean that you cannot see any mist in the tank when you stand in front of it also? I'm sure I could take some shots of my plants without having the mist be visible, but I can very well see the mist from many feet back.

Sorry for asking so many questions and being so anal, I just don't want to go and redo everything when I MAY already be geting what I am supposed to out of the mazzei. 

I can close my ball valve real far and the mist size does not change. This tells me that with more pressure the mist will not change much, right? Or do I need to increase the pressure and decrease the bubble count at the same time? <Thinking that a finer mist will not require as much CO2 in the tank as a larger mist?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

jjp2 said:


> Can anyone explain why the prices on the 384 range from $35 - $102?


For the same reason you pay $4 for a cell phone battery online and pay $40 for one at the retail store! Just shop around and go with the best price you can find.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

jgb77 said:


> It is very hard to explain the size of the mist. I think that dust or smoke like describes it better. Mrkookm made a post a while back on the barr report with a video of the mist coming from his mazzei, that's the best representation of it I've seen anywhere. I'll see if I can find the video.
> John


Would be really interested in this....


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

helgymatt said:


> For the same reason you pay $4 for a cell phone battery online and pay $40 for one at the retail store! Just shop around and go with the best price you can find.


A word of caution about this. While searching for a Mazzei, I found a few places that were a few bucks cheaper, $25 or $30. I was looking for a 384P. Some places were selling 384X and just listing it as a Mazzei 384. I'd just recommend a place like ryan herco, where you can tell them specifically what model # you are looking for. Their prices are actually very good. Or at the very least, make sure you are getting the correct model you are looking for.
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Whats the differance between a 384X and 384P?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> Whats the differance between a 384X and 384P


The 384X works well if outlet has no resistance "free flow", if there's any outlet pressure injection performance will be lowered drastically. The 384P is opposite "i.e.", it works well with higher outlet pressures.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> I understand that the mist does not show up in your pictures. Does this mean that you cannot see any mist in the tank when you stand in front of it also? I'm sure I could take some shots of my plants without having the mist be visible, but I can very well see the mist from many feet back.
> 
> Sorry for asking so many questions and being so anal, I just don't want to go and redo everything when I MAY already be geting what I am supposed to out of the mazzei.


It will be better, but don't expect much more @ current pressures.



> I can close my ball valve real far and the mist size does not change. This tells me that with more pressure the mist will not change much, right? Or do I need to increase the pressure and decrease the bubble count at the same time? <Thinking that a finer mist will not require as much CO2 in the tank as a larger mist?


Exactly! Closing off the valve increases suction so it will pull more Co2 because that needle valve setting is for lesser suction. T


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

mrkookm said:


> The 384X works well if outlet has no resistance "free flow", if there's any outlet pressure injection performance will be lowered drastically. The 384P is opposite "i.e.", it works well with higher outlet pressures.


K-Man, do you mean resistance as in something plumbed after the mazzei?


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> K-Man, do you mean resistance as in something plumbed after the mazzei?


you got it.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

10-4 Copy that


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

would a cannister filter "strong" enough to run a mazzei?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Negative on that John, you need good pressure behind a Mazzei.


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## mrkookm (Apr 4, 2007)

> would a cannister filter "strong" enough to run a mazzei?


What we are after when using a Mazzei is the high velocity jet it creates when paired with the correct size pump *NOT* suction. We do not need suction because our Co2 tanks are under very high pressures and if we want we can pump Co2 into anything we want as long as the Co2 tubing permits it  

This jet is what rips/dissolve Co2 on contact and a canister filter does not have the head rating to make this possible. This is the reason it will not work with this diffusion method.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

How strong is the flow coming out of the 384 using a dedicated pump with good head pressure?

Does it blow everything around?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Left C said:


> How strong is the flow coming out of the 384 using a dedicated pump with good head pressure?
> 
> Does it blow everything around?


With a dedicated pump it is necessary to have a bypass when using a 384. The orfice on the mazzei is very small and so very little water water will actually go through the mazzei when compared to what goes through the bypass. I would say with a good size pump that does 800gph at 20ft of head will be really good flow in a large tank 75-120 gallons. My system is a 75, I'm using about the same spec pump as above. I use an ocean clear and I wish my flow was better. I think the ocean clear slows that flow quite a lot. 
Matt


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Thanks!

I get the impression that everything will get "blown away" in an aquarium that is half the size of a 75g by the proportion of the flow that doesn't go through the Mazzei Injector.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I don't think I would say it couldn't work without blowing everything away. I don't think the pump necesarily has to be 800gph either. At the very least there must be a lot of pressure behind the mazzie. Even if you did use a pump that big you could always have a bypass and then throttle the flow after that even more with another ball valve. Then again with the tank the half the size of a 75 I would just go with a normal reactor. Don't spend your money on a big pump if you don't need to. 
Matt



Left C said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I get the impression that everything will get "blown away" in an aquarium that is half the size of a 75g by the proportion of the flow that doesn't go through the Mazzei Injector.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

The Mazzeis are very responsive and,at least in my case, I think there is a kind of sweet spot with it.I was playing around with mine and had the ball valve about 3/4 closed. I checked the ph about an hour later and noticed it had only dropped about .1 degrees. So I opened the valve a bit to maybe half way closed/open and came back a half hour later and saw that the ph dropped another .5 degrees. My point is that there seems to be a sweet spot with it and just opening or closing the ball valve what seems like very little makes a very big difference.
I don't think this is the kind of setup that you can just set it up and forget it, especially if you have any livestock in the tank. I'm sure if I had fish in the tank at this point, it would be very easy to gas them to death if not closely monitored. There is a lot of experimenting with it I have to do before it gets to where it is not only good co2 levels, but safe for livestock. It is a lot of fun though.:biggrin: 
John


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

It is a lot of fun though. 


^^^^Thats what its all about!


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

helgymatt said:


> I don't think I would say it couldn't work without blowing everything away. I don't think the pump necessary has to be 800gph either. At the very least there must be a lot of pressure behind the mazzie. Even if you did use a pump that big you could always have a bypass and then throttle the flow after that even more with another ball valve. Then again with the tank the half the size of a 75 I would just go with a normal reactor. Don't spend your money on a big pump if you don't need to.
> Matt


Thank you very much, Matt.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

mrkookm said:


> The 384X works well if outlet has no resistance "free flow", if there's any outlet pressure injection performance will be lowered drastically. The 384P is opposite "i.e.", it works well with higher outlet pressures.


Does this mean that if you are running the Mazzei with a dedicated pump running it with nothing else inline, that you think the 384X might give better results? I have a 384X that I received but never tried out, do you think it's worth experimenting with it? I thought that the difference between the 384P and 384X was that the 384X requires more pressure to work properly then a 384P.
Thanks,
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

MrKookm, (and others) where would be the best place to run my hydor inline heater? Keep in mind my main lines are 3/4" and the heater conects to 5/8" tubing. Here is what I think are my options.

1. Place it before the pump. This may be the best, but will the reduction in line from 3/4" to 5/8" cause a decrease in flow or restriction on the pump intake? 

2. Place it just before my mazzei. My thoughts are here that the pressure may be really high and maybe the hose connections could leak on the heater??? I just worry about this type of thing. 

3. Place it just after the mazzei - But would the heater then act as a reactor because of the slower flow through the heater and dissolve the mist? 

4. Place it just before the Ocean Clear

5. Place it just after the Ocean Clear

6. Place it after the wye connection of the mazzei line and filter line before the output to the tank

Right now I have no heater connected. The tank seems to stay between 75 and 78 degrees, but I'm worried that it will cool down more than this in the winter when i try to save money and keep my place cool. No I don't live in florida where it cools into the 50's, I live in Iowa where it gets -25  And I think winter isa coming fast this year! 
Matt


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi Matt,

Well, so far when testing the 584 it seems to work very well with my GenX pump.
The pump powers the Mazzei just fine. The ball valve requires very little adjustment to get good suction. But, Im still working on fine tuning the thing. They are very sensitive to adjustment. These Mazzie's are unreal, they truly smash CO2 to a fine mist.

Best Regards, Orlando


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

If I were to use a mazzei with a high flow cannister filter (planning an fx5 @ 600 gph) would it dissolve the CO2 instead of mist? 

If thats the case, it would fit better in my stand then a reactor.

Thanks,


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

In your case it would be best to use a reactor with your FX5.


Regards, Orlando


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Orlando, which genx model do you have? Also do you have any other filter hook up before the mazzei?

Thanks.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Hey Khoile,

I have a pcx40 powering only the Mazzei. I have my filtration powered by another system. Both systems are separate from each other.


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Orlando, so how much flow loss did the mazzei cause?

Thanks.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Not much I used 1" Spa Flex and 1"PVC for the whole loop. I don't have a way to really measure loss, if you know how please let me know.

-Orlando


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

The best way I have right now is to put two pressure gauges one before input to mazzei and one after. The difference in pressure (psi) can be converted to feet of water which is the pump head loss. You can then guesstimate flowrate by looking it up in your pump flow curve.

I use this calculator:
http://www.1728.com/convpres.htm

type in the pressure loss than click on psi, see what it is in feet of water, then lookup flowrate using your pump flow chart.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> MrKookm, (and others) where would be the best place to run my hydor inline heater? Keep in mind my main lines are 3/4" and the heater conects to 5/8" tubing. Here is what I think are my options.
> 
> 1. Place it before the pump. This may be the best, but will the reduction in line from 3/4" to 5/8" cause a decrease in flow or restriction on the pump intake?
> 
> ...


anybody have a comment about this?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Im not to sure witch would be best, but I would think #6 would be best. Last thing on the plumbing chain of things..

Regards, Orlando


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'd place after the OC and use the Y shaped Tee's for the loop if possible(they do not carry those at Home Depot )

Since I ran my filters in parallel instead of series, the Mazzei is only on one side of the filters and thus any blockage flow is diverted to the other side and it reduces the variation in pressures between each side rather than cumulative.

At the very end the lines rejoin before heading back into the tank.

I think folks do need to be told often that these are not very good for canister filters like Rena, Fluval, Forget anything Ehiem etc.

The trade off option that is similar is the reducing tee from say Aqua medic:
http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_viewi...line Tube&utm_campaign=mdcse&site=google_base

If you scuff the inside up and add some epoxy puddy to build up a ring inside, you get a semi venturi effect, not much, but a bit better than nothing. There's very little head loss as a result, but you do not get nearly the same ultra fine supper froth of mist, but it does dissolve very well with a few bubbles popping out here and there.

Still, far better IME than reactors or disc etc which need cleaned and are in the tank. Cheaper too.

With the reducing Tee methods, you can splice the CO2 line with a Tee and add aeration from a small air pump and add a check valve to prevent back flow. Simple and easy.

Since the mazzzei has very strong suction, check valves do not work in the aeration application. However, you can add another Reducing tee or drill a small hole for air line and add a rigid piece of 3/16" tubing to accommodate such a system and get aeration misting all night long. 

This way the tank will be rapidly degassed of CO2 and add any O2 that might be needed without adding an air stone to your tank(yet another pieces of equipment) and without a large air pump.

I strongly suggest such systems with mazzeis if you plan on high fish loads , discus etc.

This way the higher levels of CO2 are added only when needed and the rest of the time there's ample O2.

The system is also cheap and simple and requires an inlet somewhere there is backpressure to keep the check valve closed during the day and small air pump with a timer. If you DIY the inlet and add this right prior to the Mazzei, now you get the benefits of the froth aeration without the positive suction issue(cannot use a check valve in those cases and need a solenoid which cost more and is harder to add and another electrical device-but you do not need an air pump also....). Not as great as the mazzei inlet, but you still get good degassing.

It's almost like turning on/off a wet dry.

A sealed wet dry can act like this also, as can a reactor, pump air in at night, CO2 during the light cycle. This is the same concept here, just in line canisters.

Hope this helps and gives folks some ideas.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> I'd place after the OC and use the Y shaped Tee's for the loop if possible(they do not carry those at Home Depot )


Thanks Tom, I just got the Y's in the mail yesterday and will hook it up next week. Your idea of using the Heater after the OC is a good one. I actually was thinking of taking that route anyway. 
Matt


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## speakerguy (Jul 1, 2004)

Mazzei's? Weren't these the things used in skimmers 20 years ago? 

How would needle wheel pumps perform? The reefers switched to those for their skimmers from the mazzeis. Cheap pumps, very fine bubbles, low cost.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

speakerguy said:


> Mazzei's? Weren't these the things used in skimmers 20 years ago?
> 
> How would needle wheel pumps perform? The reefers switched to those for their skimmers from the mazzeis. Cheap pumps, very fine bubbles, low cost.


The Mazzei will outperform any needle wheel. This is discussed in some of the above posts by Tom Barr and others. Mazzeis are cheap too. Pumps are expensive but some (like me) are already using the pump for filtration. 
Matt


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## speakerguy (Jul 1, 2004)

I would love to see a Mazzei in action. Saltwater folks would have switched for two reasons, either the bubble size or the air throughput has to be better with needle wheels. I'm not sure why the did, so I'd be interested in bubble size comparison videos or whatnot. A maxijet with a mesh wheel impeller is reaallly cheap.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Is that video out there of the mazzei performance?

I got my system replumbed. Here are some new pictures. The Mazzei is now on a bypass before the Ocean Clear so I don't have any pressure losses from the filter. The performance does not seem to be any better than it was before. The mist is maybe a little finer, but still noticable. It doesn't seem to matter where the ball valve on the bypass is at...the mist always seems to be the same. Maybe I just need to play with it some more. 

The problem now is that the mazzei makes a huming noise that is very noticable. It didn't make this noise before, so I'm not sure why it does now. It doesn't matter if the CO2 is on or off. I checked the mazzei for debris in the opening, but there was none. Any ideas? Maybe somthing is stuck in there that I can't see. 

Also, My drop checker still does not reach a good green with CO2 mist ALL OVER the tank??


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Could the loud noise be caused by too much pressure in front of the mazzei? It seems the noise gets louder the more I close the bypass valve. Perhaps I need a larger mazzei or a ball valve so I can reduce the flow to the mazzei?

Umm...should I not have a check valve on my CO2 line??? Maybe this is my problem

Edit: found the answer to the check valve deal....definately one and a good one!
http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/4632-mazzei-uv-placement-7.html
See Post 66


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi Matt, 

Did you use 1" Spa Flex?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

3/4" spa-flex


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Do you think maybe the pump would work more efficiant with a 1" intake (spaflex) and 3/4" out? Making the pump work less to pull water in?


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Well my bulheads are 3/4" and the pump intake is 3/4". Made sense to use 3/4" tubing. I don't think the pump is working too hard to pull water with 75 gallons of water pressure. 

I'm most concerned about the noise from the mazzei


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I wonder if the 584 would of worked better for your pump. Im currently using one and its completely silent. I have a GenX PCX40 with 3/4" MPT using 1" Spa-Flex on the in and out.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Orlando said:


> I wonder if the 584 would of worked better for your pump. Im currently using one and its completely silent. I have a GenX PCX40 with 3/4" MPT using 1" Spa-Flex on the in and out.


 ??? I have a feeling there is something else going on...


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> ??? I have a feeling there is something else going on...


Something else was going on....The bottom of my heater at the 45degree PVC was rubbing the plywood bottom of my stand! LOL. See the pics...
I can't believe I spent the whole night troubleshooting this problem. I took off the heater, put in some spa-flex and problem soved - No more annoying hum sound. Now I need to either redo the heater so it isn't tight on the bottom and rubs or get one of those lifeguard deals so I don't reduce the flow of my mainline with the 1/2 tubing on the thydor. Anyone used or have experience with the lifeguard units?

Also need to work on dialing in the CO2 better. I do think the mist size IS much better after redoing my plumbing as MrKookm suggested.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Here is the video I found showing a Mazzei in action. Unfortunately, the quality isn't very good because I can't figure out how to let it be downloaded. This is mrkookm's Mazzei he put this video on the barr report a while back.
See next page (page 11) for a better quality video.
John


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

helgymatt said:


> I got my system replumbed. Here are some new pictures. The Mazzei is now on a bypass before the Ocean Clear so I don't have any pressure losses from the filter. The performance does not seem to be any better than it was before. The mist is maybe a little finer, but still noticable. It doesn't seem to matter where the ball valve on the bypass is at...the mist always seems to be the same. Maybe I just need to play with it some more.


Is it worth the trouble to plumb the Mazzei before a mechanical filter for the gain in pressure? What if you gunk/build-up got into the Mazzei, would that cause trouble? If the performance doesn't improve much I believe plumbing it after a mech filter is better. It seem to me we don't have a good way of measuring efficiency, besides bubble size I guess.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Cool...but I can't really see anything because of the quality. How about using YouTube? Probably not any better quality there.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Still more mazzei issues. 

The mazzei is injecting "something" even when the CO2 is OFF. The mazzei makes a hissing sound 24/7 no matter how much flow I send to the mazzei, until the flow is cut off completely (no surprise here). Note... I added a valve before the mazzei to control the flow. I also removed the heater so I no longer have that noise so I'm sure that the hissing noise I get is from the mazzei itself. 

From what I have read and have been told, the mazzei should be silent and not mist when the CO2 is off. I'm also relatively sure there is no leak in the CO2 line. My though is that something is wrong with the mazzei. Could there be some debri stuck in the mazzei CO2 inlet that I cannot see causing cavitation and maybe what I am seeing is O2 misting/noise? Is there a way to remove the port and clean it out? 

My next step is to make a call to mazzei and see what they think and see if the noise is a normal issue. Also if anyone has been using a mazzei for some time, how can you describe the appearance of the mist in the tank. MrKookM says his mist is barely noticable, mine is definatly not. In fact I can see the mist from many paces away...particullarly from where it comes out from the filter line. I would expect to see mist there, but when I'm a few feet from the tank I can see the mist all over the tank. 

My frustrations with this mazzei is almost making me wish I would have just kept with a reactor. Hopefully these issues can be resolved and so other people who wish to use them can have some guidance on how they work/how to deal with the issues surrounding them. 

For more info here is a link to an in-depth discussion of mazzei hookup and the caviation issues - Hint: A lot of other plumbing issues in there not related to my issues. http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquat...mazzei-uv-placement-4.html?posted=1#post29167

Matt


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Hi Matt,

Im wondering if your pump is pushing to much even with the bypass. Either larger size tubing (1") or a 584 Mazzei..Im using a 584 with a GenX pump and 1" Spa Flex.
Its completely silent, and my pump has 3/4" ports.
I think if you added 1" tubing and perhaps a 584 your noise level would quickly disappear.

Regards, Orlando

P.S
The mist from my Mazzei is hardly noticeable, if I look closely I can see millions of micro bubbles.
Don't give up, you can make this work..


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Anyone have a 584 I can try and return after I see if it works?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Matt, here is the video I posted a few pages back of mrkookm's mazzei mist working. You should goto this page and download the video to your computer. You will be able to see the size/quality of the mist much better when you download it. 
Hope this helps,
John
mazzei mist


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Orlando said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> Im wondering if your pump is pushing to much even with the bypass. Either larger size tubing (1") or a 584 Mazzei..Im using a 584 with a GenX pump and 1" Spa Flex.
> Its completely silent, and mu pump has 3/4" ports.
> ...


I added a valve before my mazzei so I could control the flow to it. It doesn't matter how much flow i send to the mazzei it still makes noise and mists when the CO2 is OFF. I find it hard to believe that a bigger mazzei would work better....anyone?

What irriates me is that your mazzei is silent and that your mist is hardly noticable.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

helgymatt said:


> Anyone have a 584 I can try and return after I see if it works?


I have a 384X. I don't know if it would be any better (or worse) for you, but if you can find out from the people at Mazzei or mrkookm what he thinks, you are welcome to try it.
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

I took a look at the video and it is much more clear! Props to you John. I know hardly noticeable may have many varying definitions, but in my opinion that the mist in that video is not "hardly noticeable". My mist is not any worse or better than what I see in that video. I think I have been lead to believe that its like looking through a still tank of water and its definitely not. I think its up to each individual person if it is distracting to them or not. The mist itself all around my tank is not really distracting to me, its more the mass of mist coming out of the filter output. In my tank it is situated so one output shoots across the back of the tank and the other across the front of the tank. I don't notice the one in the back, but the one in the front looks like a cloud of smoke coming out of the output. Maybe I should rearrange my loclines so it isn't so noticeable. It could also be the design of my tank. I have no background in my tank and the white wall behind brings more light into the tank. Maybe those with black backgrounds notice the mist less? I would think black would make it worse, but maybe not. 

I'm awaiting response from mazzei about the noise and misting when CO2 is off issue. 

John, what is the difference with the 384x from the 384 again?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

mrkookm said:


> The 384X works well if outlet has no resistance "free flow", if there's any outlet pressure injection performance will be lowered drastically. The 384P is opposite "i.e.", it works well with higher outlet pressures.


Here is mrkookm's quote about the difference. 
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

jgb77 said:


> Here is mrkookm's quote about the difference.
> John


Given this, I don't think the 384x will be much good for me. Thanks anyway,
Matt


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Just a quick update...the mazzei is relatively silent when misting CO2, but the noise erupts and "air" is misted when the CO2 is off. Any ideas here guys?


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

What kind of ph drop are you getting when co2 is on during the day? Could it be the mist you are seeing is air and not co2? When I had an air leak in my system, I would hear a noise followed by a burst of bubbles out of the output. Maybe you have air leaking into your system somewhere.
Sorry if you already checked this, I'm just coming up with ideas off the top of my head.
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Well the pH drops from about 7.1 to 6.4 so CO2 is definately going in. I might retape the threads on the the mazzei one more time and see. Again, the noise is loudest when the CO2 is off. Perhaps there could be a leak in the joints on my check valve, bubble counter, or on the inlet nozzle on the mazzei.? Its so hard to find a leak since it is all under suction. I could also try the "dip in water" trick...any air leak would now just suck water and the misting and noise should stop.

I'm just scratching my head on this one.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Try unhooking the check valve and plug the co2 line. See if you get mist then, with co2 off. That can at least tell you if you are in the right area if there is an air leak.
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

jgb77 said:


> Try unhooking the check valve and plug the co2 line. See if you get mist then, with co2 off. That can at least tell you if you are in the right area if there is an air leak.
> John


Will do.

On a side note...some people have been asking about using mazzeis with regular canisters. Here is a thread where a lot of people have used them. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/44207-swaped-out-reactor-venturi-2.html


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## Kyle H (Sep 27, 2008)

okay quick question here I am setting up a mazzei for a 60 gallon custom built 24" x 24" x24" cube.

I Just purchased a Gen-X PCX 30 External Pump with 825 gph 3/4" MPT IN/OUT 
max head 14.5 feet which I will then run Into an Ocean clear 340 filter which will then run into the 384x mazzei (with the bypass ball valve mkrookms design) the water then travels four feet from the mazzei inside the filter stand up to the outlet on top of the tank where it gets released into the tank.

Two questions about my plan:
1. what will be the estimated gallon per hour flow that will be released into my tank after the water travels through the filter, through the mazzei and up four feet into the tank. (825 gph seems overkill for a 60 cube so Im hoping it will go down)

2. is there any flaws in my plan that I should know about 

Thanks for your help, Kyle aka jazzlvr123


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Kyle H said:


> okay quick question here I am setting up a mazzei for a 60 gallon custom built 24" x 24" x24" cube.
> 
> I Just purchased a Gen-X PCX 30 External Pump with 825 gph 3/4" MPT IN/OUT
> max head 14.5 feet which I will then run Into an Ocean clear 340 filter which will then run into the 384x mazzei (with the bypass ball valve mkrookms design) the water then travels four feet from the mazzei inside the filter stand up to the outlet on top of the tank where it gets released into the tank.
> ...


Kyle, glad you found an interest in using a mazzei. A couple things. As MrKookM recommended to me, be sure to have your mazzei on a bypass "with" your filter. This way you don't have pressure loss from the filter for the mazzei. See my pics for how I split the line after the pump - one to the mazzei, and one to the filter. 

I'm not sure what the exact loss will be, but I'll think you'll be very happy with the flow and circulation with that pump. I would say about 500gph or so?? Are you using bulkheads and loclines? If not, you should 
Otherwise, I think your plan sounds good.


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Ok, well I did nothing and the noise seems to be gone...for the time being at least! I don't know why it doesn't make noise now. But now, there seems to be a burst of small bubbles every few seconds coming out the ouput. So apparently to fix one thing, another thing has to go wrong after. After I discovered this I built an inline heater with one of those water tight cord grips. Heres a pic and a shot of my tank. It has come a long way in a few months 
















Matt


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## Kyle H (Sep 27, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> Ok, well I did nothing and the noise seems to be gone...for the time being at least! I don't know why it doesn't make noise now. But now, there seems to be a burst of small bubbles every few seconds coming out the ouput. So apparently to fix one thing, another thing has to go wrong after. After I discovered this I built an inline heater with one of those water tight cord grips. Heres a pic and a shot of my tank. It has come a long way in a few months
> 
> 
> 
> ...


can you post a pic of your input and output? I dont see any bulkeads here. 

I would like to avoid having 2 holes drilled into my 60 cube so im searching for other options to have the input and output adequately transfer water without drilling the tank


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

Kyle H said:


> can you post a pic of your input and output? I dont see any bulkeads here.
> 
> I would like to avoid having 2 holes drilled into my 60 cube so im searching for other options to have the input and output adequately transfer water without drilling the tank


Matt does have bulkheads drilled in his tank, 2 I believe. You can see some pictures of them earlier in the thread, page 5 has some good shots of them.
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Kyle H said:


> can you post a pic of your input and output? I dont see any bulkeads here.
> 
> I would like to avoid having 2 holes drilled into my 60 cube so im searching for other options to have the input and output adequately transfer water without drilling the tank


There are pics on page 5. You cant see them in the planted tank because they are hidden. That is the glory of having bulkheads. the input is behind the rock on the right and the ouput is by the rock on the left. Output is a 1/2" Y with loclines. 

I would recommend drilling if you can. It is much easier to hide some bulkheads in the bottom of the tank than it is input and output pipes haning over the top of the tank.


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## jgb77 (Dec 13, 2006)

helgymatt said:


> Ok, well I did nothing and the noise seems to be gone...for the time being at least! I don't know why it doesn't make noise now. But now, there seems to be a burst of small bubbles every few seconds coming out the ouput. So apparently to fix one thing, another thing has to go wrong after. After I discovered this I built an inline heater with one of those water tight cord grips. Heres a pic and a shot of my tank. It has come a long way in a few months
> Matt


 In my experience with my mazzei, when I had a burst of bubbles coming out every once in a while, I needed to increase the flow/pressure going through the injector. What I did with mine was open my bypass completely having as little flow as possible going through the mazzei. Then slowly closed the valve, increasing pressure to the injector, until I get no more bursts of co2 coming out and an even mist. The object is to get as much flow into the tank, with even, tiny mist. For reference, my ph starts at about 6.5 in the morning, and within an hour or so, my ph is down to 5.5. 
I really think that some adjusting is needed for these to find a sweet spot with it. For me it was tweak it a bit, let it run for a while, check and adjust again. Until I found what made things better and what adjustments made things worse.
By the way, Matt. Your tank looks great.
John


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Well it turns out that that inline heater idea did not work. I had a 200 watt hydor heater in there (which I know works), but it would not raise the water temp. Either 1) the design of the inline heater idea is flawed, or 2) the 200 watt heater is not big enough for this application in a 75 gallon. I then took the heater and just stuck it in the tank and the tank now stays at a steady 77 degrees. I have read many threads about these inline heaters and I'm confused as to why it didn't work for me. Ideas anyone? Maybe the flow of my water was too fast that didn't allow the heat to tranfer very well? 
matt


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## srud (Jan 4, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> Well it turns out that that inline heater idea did not work. I had a 200 watt hydor heater in there (which I know works), but it would not raise the water temp. Either 1) the design of the inline heater idea is flawed, or 2) the 200 watt heater is not big enough for this application in a 75 gallon. I then took the heater and just stuck it in the tank and the tank now stays at a steady 77 degrees. I have read many threads about these inline heaters and I'm confused as to why it didn't work for me. Ideas anyone? Maybe the flow of my water was too fast that didn't allow the heat to tranfer very well?
> matt


Matt - I don't think 200 watts is enough and the your theory on the flow being too fast has merit as well. I have the 300 on my 75 and it's doing a fine job, but it's inline with a Rena xp3.


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## inkslinger (Dec 28, 2003)

Will i had my 110g tank now for 2 years now an when i bought it use in a LSF the owner sold it with the system {tank 60x18x24} 2 VHO 110w each ,Stand and Canopy, I thought the 300w Hydro Heater would be weak here in MA. But never had a problem with the temp staying at 78`-81`all year long and i'm running a Mag 5 inline w/AM 1000 CO2 Reactor ,UV Light ,300w Hydro Heater


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

inkslinger said:


> Will i had my 110g tank now for 2 years now an when i bought it use in a LSF the owner sold it with the system {tank 60x18x24} 2 VHO 110w each ,Stand and Canopy, I thought the 300w Hydro Heater would be weak here in MA. But never had a problem with the temp staying at 78`-81`all year long and i'm running a Mag 5 inline w/AM 1000 CO2 Reactor ,UV Light ,300w Hydro Heater


Pic of your inline heater?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

helgymatt said:


> Ideas anyone? Maybe the flow of my water was too fast that didn't allow the heat to tranfer very well?
> matt


I'm using a DIY inline heater setup similar to yours, and I had to recalibrate my heater to heat the tank to the desired level, though my heater was overheating the tank, rather than under heating it. When I had the heater in the tank, it was calibrated to hold the temperature at 78*, and when I put it in the PVC enclosure, it raised the tank temp to 85*, over a couple days time. It is a 75 watt Eheim Jager heater in a 29 gallon tank, if that helps any. 

Is there an audible click when it turns on? I'm guessing the thermostat isn't reading the tank water temp, but maybe the ambient room temp? Sorry I can't be of more help.


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## Kyle H (Sep 27, 2008)

heres my mazzei setup:


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Very nice  Do you only have one union on there?


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## Kyle H (Sep 27, 2008)

Orlando said:


> Very nice  Do you only have one union on there?


I have two on either side of the pump. one before the mazzei and one after (not seen in the picture) so a total of four


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## helgymatt (Dec 7, 2007)

Folks, unfortunately I think I'm going to give up on my mazzei. I'm fed up with trying to fine tune this system to get the right mist. I'm also tired of the issue of the mist when CO2 is off and frankly I don't think it is any more efficient than a plain old PVC reactor. Maybe others can get theirs to work great, but I don't want to have to tune this thing in every time I clean my filter and every time I change CO2 tanks. With the PVC reactor I just set it and forget it. Even if the growth is better with "misting" I can afford not to prune as much...if thats even possible with T5's? 



I plan to put in a reactor right in place of the mazzei. Only thing that will be bad is that I will loose a lot of my flow through the reactor which won't get filtered. At least I have a big pump and lots of flow so I think a the loss will not be that big of a deal. I could plumb the reactor in after the filter, but I think there may be too much flow at 700 gph (flush all the CO2 out the bottom of the reactor before dissolved?) Suggestions welcomed. 
I hope others have more success than me...maybe more patience


I also want to add that I found that debris from my filter inlet was getting lodged in the mazzei. Apparently some eco-complete got sucked in some how. I have also found small snails in the mazzei inlet. So it would be a good idea to somehow filter the water (at least with a sponge) before the mazzei. I think the clogged mazzei was most of the issue of loud noise and intermtent bubbling of CO2

Matt


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## Kyle H (Sep 27, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> I also want to add that I found that debris from my filter inlet was getting lodged in the mazzei. Apparently some eco-complete got sucked in some how. I have also found small snails in the mazzei inlet. So it would be a good idea to somehow filter the water (at least with a sponge) before the mazzei. I think the clogged mazzei was most of the issue of loud noise and intermtent bubbling of CO2
> 
> Matt


I have also put a great deal of thought into my setup when it comes to keeping the mazzei from becoming clogged. all you can do is basically put a sponge and filter screen in the input of your system and hope for the best. also, using softer substrates like ADA aquasoil (which would dissolve if caught in an area of high flow) help so you don't have rocks of fluorite or eco complete from getting stuck in the mazzei. also you can back flush the system through the ocean clear filter this should dislodge anything that might be stuck in the plumbing. Tom Barr has been using this system with great success for awhile now so we know it can be done if the necessary precautions are made


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## Coralite (Nov 29, 2008)

helgymatt said:


> The Mazzei will outperform any needle wheel.


Yeah right! If that was the case then we would still have venturi skimmers running the majority of reef tanks. Nearly every new skimmer model in the last two years have been needle wheel designs.

Centrifugal pumps and needle wheel impellers are all over the map in terms of performance and quality. An eheim 1262 with an H&S NW impeller will produce much finer bubbles than all but the most perfectly driven mazzeis. But then again paying $300+ for a top-shelf, custom made needle wheel pump assembly is not as cost effective as using a mazzei.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

I cant wait for Eheims needle wheel to get to the US


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## Hover408 (Jun 18, 2008)

wow ty for all the info here. this was my last adition i needed to make. now i think i got it!


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

so are these things still worth our time?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Yes.
No.
Maybe so?


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