# Riddle me this... Large Amano die off...



## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

How did you acclimate them?

Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock


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## D3monic (Jan 29, 2012)

Sounds an awful lot like copper to me.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> How did you acclimate them?
> 
> Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock


The way I do for all my fish:

Float the bag

A few drops of Prime in the bag using a syringe to bind the ammonia and nitrites.

Pour a shot glass of water into the bag 3x over 10 minutes.

get a bucket and pour the water over a net into the bucket catching the shrimp

dump shrimp into tank.

The coral red pencil fish, and all of my other fish have this method.


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

jkan0228 said:


> How did you acclimate them?
> 
> Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock



+1 

I think poor acclimation or CO2 shock are both potential reason... while copper is possible I would say at levels that would of killed that many shrimp, unlikely, at least without killing them all.

If you order more Amanos in the future I would make sure to drip acclimate them and also kill the CO2 for at least 3-4 days before you introduce the Amanos. Then slowly over the next 1-2 weeks ramp the CO2 back up.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> How did you acclimate them?
> 
> Edit: If you already had high levels of Co2 while you added the amanos, they could be dying from Co2 shock


I would consider high CO2 but the shrimp/fish were added when the CO2/lights had been on for a while. I have calibrated the CO2 with 1.5bps - the drop checker and pH/KH calculation shows acceptable CO2. 

The coral reds acclimated as well.

Finally, none of the other fish acted weird. They ate when the lights came on and swam around normally.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Pick up a copper test kit ASAP. If you're gonna keep shrimp, might as well have one.

You're going to have a lot of people say yes/no to Excel but that could also be the culprit.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> +1
> 
> I think poor acclimation or CO2 shock are both potential reason... while copper is possible I would say at levels that would of killed that many shrimp, unlikely, at least without killing them all.
> 
> If you order more Amanos in the future I would make sure to drip acclimate them and also kill the CO2 for at least 3-4 days before you introduce the Amanos. Then slowly over the next 1-2 weeks ramp the CO2 back up.


I appreciate the advice, but I'm following Rachel's recommendations for acclimation. I have never drip acclimated and I haven't ever lost a fish.

High CO2 is unlikely.


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

sundragon said:


> The way I do for all my fish:
> 
> Float the bag
> 
> ...



While fine for fish, this is not how you acclimate shrimp, certainly not if your water parameters are drastically different. Drip acclimation should be used for all shrimp unless you test the water (for gh, kh, tds and ph) and it is practically identical. 

something like 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1A5wsYKzIU
or 
http://www.planetinverts.com/Acclimating New Shrimp.html


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

somewhatshocked said:


> Pick up a copper test kit ASAP. If you're gonna keep shrimp, might as well have one.
> 
> You're going to have a lot of people say yes/no to Excel but that could also be the culprit.


I have a copper kit on order to arrive soon. The excel shouldn't kill shrimp at that dose in a 57 gallon tank. It's far from the max dose.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

sundragon said:


> The way I do for all my fish:
> 
> Float the bag
> 
> ...


Rachel wrote an article on acclimating fish and inverts. 

Her methods were:
Open bag, few drops of prime, take livestock out via net and plop into tank. 

When you float it, you're accelerating their metabolism when it's already been pretty low with the low temps. When their metabolism increases so suddenly, they start to hyperventilate, thus suffocating in the bag. Unless you have surface agitation in the bag, there won't be much O2 in the bag. 

You also added the water too quickly. Rachel recommends if you do acclimation, use the drip method over several hours.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> While fine for fish, this is not how you acclimate shrimp, certainly not if your water parameters are drastically different. Drip acclimation should be used for all shrimp unless you test the water (for gh, kh, tds and ph) and it is practically identical.
> 
> something like
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1A5wsYKzIU
> ...


From the source of the shrimp: http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating-your-shipped-fish-or-invertebrates-to-their-new-tank/

Please send me a doc that states drip acclimation - I've honestly never used it.


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

sundragon said:


> I appreciate the advice, but I'm following Rachel's recommendations for acclimation. I have never drip acclimated and I haven't ever lost a fish.
> 
> High CO2 is unlikely.


I don't know who Rachel is but acclimating shrimp over a 10 minute time period often will have the exact results you are experiencing, you will probably lose a couple more tonight and then whatever survives after 3 days will probably be okay.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

sundragon said:


> From the source of the shrimp: http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating-your-shipped-fish-or-invertebrates-to-their-new-tank/
> 
> Please send me a doc that states drip acclimation - I've honestly never used it.


"To drip acclimate, simply add the fish to the holding container with enough shipping water to cover it (be sure you added the dechlorinator/ammonia binder). Then take your airline and start a siphon from your quarantine tank. Next you tie a knot (or use a two-way adjustable air valve) in the airline to provide a slow drip into the holding container. This allows for gradual increase of temperature, and a more gradual change of total dissolved solids."




Lifeblood said:


> I don't know who Rachel is but acclimating shrimp over a 10 minute time period often will have the exact results you are experiencing, you will probably lose a couple more tonight and then whatever survives after 3 days will probably be okay.



Rachel is Msjinkzd


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Rachel wrote an article on acclimating fish and inverts.
> 
> Her methods were:
> Open bag, few drops of prime, take livestock out via net and plop into tank.
> ...


That would kill the shrimp over 24 hours? Why not immediately? why not the coral reds?

I have a hard time believing that adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes wouldn't shock shrimp and kill them 24 hours later.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

sundragon said:


> That would kill the shrimp over 24 hours? Why not immediately? why not the coral reds?
> 
> I have a hard time believing that adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes wouldn't shock shrimp and kill them 24 hours later.


You stated that you were following Rachel's advice for acclimation. Adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes was *not* in her article. 

Nothing would happen that fast I'm guessing. The coral reds are probably hardier than shrimp in general. However, once shrimp are acclimated, they're just as hardy except from copper(which is another one of the possibilities)

Acclimation needs to be gradual and not within a 10 minute time period. This allows the livestock to slowly adjust to the new conditions


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> You stated that you were following Rachel's advice for acclimation. Adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes was *not* in her article.


Agreed, it wasn't but I have a hard time believing that 10 minutes would make that much of a difference. I will try the immediate toss next time but I think there is more to this than that for them to die 24 hours later.

FWIW, the coral reds aren't hardy fish, they are quite sensitiive from what I've read.

Edit: I'd like to know what you use - immediate toss or drip acclimation. I'd actually like to know what people use for their shrimp.


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

sundragon said:


> That would kill the shrimp over 24 hours? Why not immediately? why not the coral reds?
> 
> I have a hard time believing that adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes wouldn't shock shrimp and kill them 24 hours later.


Okay so this is my understanding of why improper acclimation kills shrimp, if I am wrong someone please correct me.

The reason you slowing acclimate shrimp has more to do with TDS and hardness than pH and temp(although they are also important).

In theory the water in your tank was significantly different in hardness/tds than the water in the bag. When you added the shrimp to the tank after 10 mins and 3 shots their bodies didn't have time to reach or come close to an equilibrium with the tds in their soft tissue and the tds in the water so this micro particles were either forced into our out of the shrimp body rapidly. (think like scuba diving and nitrogen, the bends)

And just like humans death from shrimpy bends is not instant or pleasant.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> Okay so this is my understanding of why improper acclimation kills shrimp, if I am wrong someone please correct me.
> 
> The reason you slowing acclimate shrimp has more to do with TDS and hardness than pH and temp(although they are also important).
> 
> ...


This make sense, then why would the immediate toss work? It would kill them all I think?


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

sundragon said:


> This make sense, then why would the immediate toss work? It would kill them all I think?


I don't see anyone suggesting immediate toss... shrimp should be acclimated over 45+ minutes not 10. Longer if there is really significant difference in water parameters.

In short you killed your shrimp, and it is something that many beginner shrimp keepers do. I would say there is at least 1 post a week with the same symptoms and the same cause.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> I don't see anyone suggesting immediate toss... shrimp should be acclimated over 45+ minutes not 10. Longer if there is really significant difference in water parameters.


"The following is the method which has yielded the highest survival rates for my purposes. First have a net, water conditioner, a container (bucket or pitcher), and some airline available. Immediately upon opening the shipping bag, add a few drops of water conditioner to detoxify the ammonia. Which product is not important, though I use Prime. From this point on it is preference. I prefer to then pour the fish into a net (over the bucket as they are quite jumpy) and add them directly to a dark tank. Typically they are adjusted and acting relatively normally, sometimes even willing to feed, within about 20 minutes. Many prefer the drip method. I have no issue with the drip method, but in order for it to really be effective, it should be done over a minimum of several hours."

From http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating-your-shipped-fish-or-invertebrates-to-their-new-tank/


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> I don't see anyone suggesting immediate toss... shrimp should be acclimated over 45+ minutes not 10. Longer if there is really significant difference in water parameters.
> 
> In short you killed your shrimp, and it is something that many beginner shrimp keepers do. I would say there is at least 1 post a week with the same symptoms and the same cause.


I appreciate your advice, and not to beat a dead horse:

What I'm saying is that this http://msjinkzd.com/news/acclimating-your-shipped-fish-or-invertebrates-to-their-new-tank/ wouldn't be recommended if the


Lifeblood said:


> shrimp should be acclimated over 45+ minutes not 10


 was totally true 

Apparently the immediate toss works...

What I did should have given them a little more opportunity to get acclimated. 

I will try an extended (*45 minute*) acclimation period for the shrimp *next time*. I'd like to make sure there is no other possibility.

I will test the water once the copper kit arrives...


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

sundragon said:


> I prefer to then pour the fish into a net (over the bucket as they are quite jumpy) and add them directly to a dark tank


I think this is what you are referring to, and I believe it is fish specific. 

Pretty much every shrimp guide out there will go over some version of drip/slow water transfer acclimation.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Not to add onto this and this of course isn't the only correct answer but Rachel's article states its better to acclimate over *several hours*


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> I think this is what you are referring to, and I believe it is fish specific.
> 
> Pretty much every shrimp guide out there will go over some version of drip/slow water transfer acclimation.


The title is "Acclimating your shipped fish or invertebrates to their new tank"

She's sold me great livestock so I think it works for her and has thus far for my fish.

I'm not disagreeing with you as much as I'm asking if you think there is another possibility. I can try the 45 minute acclimation next time.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Not to add onto this and this of course isn't the only correct answer but Rachel's article states its better to acclimate over *several hours*


I think that is ridiculous... I'd like to know how many people do multiple hour acclimation for their inverts... These aren't discus or expensive marine fish. If all of you do 45+ minute acclimation for your shrimp, I won't buy shrimp...

45 minutes is tolerable. I did 10 minutes because it's worked for all my fish and I thought the immediate toss was a bit harsh.

Again, let's stop beating a dead horse - I'll try the extended acclimation. But I don't think that can be the only answer.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

sundragon said:


> That would kill the shrimp over 24 hours? Why not immediately? why not the coral reds?
> 
> I have a hard time believing that adding 3 shot glasses of water over 10 minutes wouldn't shock shrimp and kill them 24 hours later.


Fish aren't as sensitive to CO2 as inverts. If you had high CO2 levels (bps doesn't mean a lot, what color is your drop checker? green? lime-green? blue?) during the acclimation period, they will die of CO2 shock over a course of 1-2 days. Which is what seems like it is happening now. The shrimp aren't dying of TDS shock, which occurs pretty soon after acclimation as their gills get damaged.



sundragon said:


> I think that is ridiculous... I'd like to know how many people do multiple hour acclimation for their inverts... These aren't discus or expensive marine fish. If all of you do 45+ minute acclimation for your shrimp, I won't buy shrimp...
> 
> 45 minutes is tolerable. I did 10 minutes because it's worked for all my fish and I thought the immediate toss was a bit harsh.
> 
> Again, let's stop beating a dead horse - I'll try the extended acclimation. But I don't think that can be the only answer.


People will acclimate for 4+ hours for expensive shrimp. It all depends on the difference in TDS of your tank water compared to the water the shrimp came in.

Again, fish are more tolerable than inverts to TDS changes and CO2.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Fish aren't as sensitive to CO2 as inverts. If you had high CO2 levels (bps doesn't mean a lot, what color is your drop checker? green? lime-green? blue?) during the acclimation period, they will die of CO2 shock over a course of 1-2 days. Which is what seems like it is happening now. The shrimp aren't dying of TDS shock, which occurs pretty soon after acclimation as their gills get damaged.
> People will acclimate for 4+ hours for expensive shrimp. It all depends on the difference in TDS of your tank water compared to the water the shrimp came in.
> 
> Again, fish are more tolerable than inverts to TDS changes and CO2.


The CO2 had been off since the previous day when they were introduced to the tank. I prevented it from turning on along with the lights for a couple of hours after they were introduced. I run it at 1.5 bps diffused inline for a 57 gallon tank. 

Do you turn off your CO2 for a day when you acclimate your shrimp?

I'll ask the seller what the KH/GH is - I can test my tank.

Edit: Do you acclimate your amano shrimp using the drip method? If so, how long?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

What's your drop checker color? The bps doesn't tell us much about the concentration within the entire tank. Also, are you using pressurized CO2 or DIY as that greatly effects concentration as well.

Yes, you wanna shut CO2 off for a day before introducing livestock. Ramp up surface agitation so all the excess CO2 gets gassed out. Acclimate. SLOWLY ramp the CO2 back up to the level you want over a course of the week (this could also be an issue).

Inverts are picky picky things


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> What's your drop checker color? The bps doesn't tell us much about the concentration within the entire tank. Also, are you using pressurized CO2 or DIY as that greatly effects concentration as well.
> 
> Yes, you wanna shut CO2 off for a day before introducing livestock. Ramp up surface agitation so all the excess CO2 gets gassed out. Acclimate. SLOWLY ramp the CO2 back up to the level you want over a course of the week (this could also be an issue).
> 
> Inverts are picky picky things


Drop checker was deep green - is usually green to light green with the CO2 on. Since it's a relatively new tank, I've used two different drop checkers (GLA and Red Sea) with their respective fluid to test and they both give the same color readings.

The CO2 had been off since the previous day when they were added. I left it off for another couple hours along with the lights to let them adjust and not scare them.

Edit: Do people really change their CO2 for a week to adapt their amano shrimp? Can you tell me the process you follow when acclimating your amano shrimp?

Is there a sticky on acclimating inverts? It would be helpful since the process is apparently so different from fish and I didn't realize they were so delicate


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

These were from the first batch that died this morning.


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## shrimpster (Jan 31, 2012)

I use drip method exlusively for everything after seeing no deaths using it vs. some deaths almost everytime just pouring/exchanging tank water.

One example: Seller sent me shrimps in h20 w/tds @ 230ppm when it left. One day later it arrives and reads 280ppm. Guaranteed those 50ppmeek::eek5::help::icon_eek were all ammonia/nitrites. So shrimps were already stressed.

I dripped for 6 hours to get the water to match my tank h20 of 160ppm. I start @ 1drop/sec and over the course of several hours increase the rate. It took about 2gals. of h2o to get the h20 down to my tanks' tds. Not only did I not loose any, but they acted upon release like they'd been there the whole time immediately actively foraging. These are considered sensitive shrimps, but I do it even w/cherries now after loosing some due to improper acclimation.

I do this because of a thread I read on shrimpnow. It basically said what others have said. It's the difference between the tds of the two h20 sources that is important not the pH. If there is a large difference then the shrimps can't equalize the salts fast enough and they either "balloon" or get crushed depending on which way the salts are trying to move. Just like the bends it takes time to actually die from it even though the damage has been done.

If I remember correctly, shrimps coming from higher tds to lower need a longer acclimation period as it takes longer for the salts to leave their bodies than it does for them to enter.

I read on the same thread that some folks slowly change the h20 tds over the course of days/weeks so as not to shock the shrimps.

The co2 levels in your tank may have been a factor, but if you didn't match the tds levels over a longer period of time, or at least get them close, I suspect that was your main issue.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

What size is your tank?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

shrimpster said:


> I use drip method exlusively for everything after seeing no deaths using it vs. some deaths almost everytime just pouring/exchanging tank water.
> 
> One example: Seller sent me shrimps in h20 w/tds @ 230ppm when it left. One day later it arrives and reads 280ppm. Guaranteed those 50ppmeek::eek5::help::icon_eek were all ammonia/nitrites. So shrimps were already stressed.
> 
> ...



It doesn't have to do with TDS, it has to do with hardness.

Shrimp going from harder water to softer water will suffer because the soft water will flood their cells. Shrimp going from softer water to harder water will be fine because the hardness of the new water has a harder time penetrating their cell walls. Something like that anyway. 

Using TDS as a measurement for hardness isn't reliable, especially out of the bag. I have a tank with 500 PPM of TDS, and the GH is 4 and KH is 0 and nitrates are 20ppm. Go figure, right?


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## FreedPenguin (Aug 2, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> It doesn't have to do with TDS, it has to do with hardness.
> 
> Shrimp going from harder water to softer water will suffer because the soft water will flood their cells. Shrimp going from softer water to harder water will be fine because the hardness of the new water has a harder time penetrating their cell walls. Something like that anyway.
> 
> Using TDS as a measurement for hardness isn't reliable, especially out of the bag. I have a tank with 500 PPM of TDS, and the GH is 4 and KH is 0 and nitrates are 20ppm. Go figure, right?


That is a very interesting thing to know. I had no idea.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> What size is your tank?


57 gallons


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

So you are double dosing excel as well as using CO2?

My amanos are sensitive to CO2, and also sensitive to excel.

Keep in mind, shrimp are much more sensitive to CO2 than fish, so even though your fish may be acting normal, the shrimp could be suffering (they have small and primitive gill structure, and are from high oxygen environment naturally)


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> So you are double dosing excel as well as using CO2?
> 
> My amanos are sensitive to CO2, and also sensitive to excel.


My CO2 is at 1.5bps diffused inline when the lights come on for 8 hours. For a 57 gallon tank, that's not a huge amount of CO2 but my drop checkers are green so I don't complain.

EDIT: not light green, but emerald green in the AM. Once the CO2 is pumping it goes up to light green. What doesn't make sense about the CO2 is that it was off for 16 hours when the fish and shrimp were being acclimated. It didn't come on for another 2+ hours after they were in the tank.

Yup, dosing at 10ml daily. I had an algae bloom about two weeks ago. The tank is 44 days old as of today and I started dosing ferts and adjusted the lights and the algae is going away. The Excel will be reduced to 2x a week as a general algaecide once the bloom is gone.

FWIW, I have spoken to a few individuals that dose excel and CO2 with no issues on the RCS and amanos. I'll add no Excel to the list of things.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

All I know is, in my high tech setup (50 gallon, pressurized co2, PPS-pro dosing, excel), I cannot keep amano shrimp alive, although cherry are fine. I have an identical setup, but 20 gallons, and no CO2 or excel, and they are fine. Only difference in the tanks is size, lighting and co2/ferts. I normally have 100+ in the 20 gallon, and whenever I put amanos in my 50 gallon, they survive between 1-5 days. The cherries are doing well though, growing and breeding.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> It doesn't have to do with TDS, it has to do with hardness.
> 
> Shrimp going from harder water to softer water will suffer because the soft water will flood their cells. Shrimp going from softer water to harder water will be fine because the hardness of the new water has a harder time penetrating their cell walls. Something like that anyway.
> 
> Using TDS as a measurement for hardness isn't reliable, especially out of the bag. I have a tank with 500 PPM of TDS, and the GH is 4 and KH is 0 and nitrates are 20ppm. Go figure, right?


I learn something in this hobby daily 

So there's no way to determine unless I test the water in the bag first?

You, Shrimpster, and Lifeblood have a lot of patience to put up with a *6 hour drip* acclimation!

The hypothesis is that I have super hard or soft water that's different from the sellers and the little buggers couldn't handle the difference without that kind of acclimation 

Respectfully, I'm going to assume that not everyone goes through a *6 hour drip* acclimation for their amano shrimp because it just seems a bit much for me. I wouldn't be in this hobby if I had to do this for fish, honestly.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> All I know is, in my high tech setup (50 gallon, pressurized co2, PPS-pro dosing, excel), I cannot keep amano shrimp alive, although cherry are fine. I have an identical setup, but 20 gallons, and no CO2 or excel, and they are fine. Only difference in the tanks is size, lighting and co2/ferts. I normally have 100+ in the 20 gallon, and whenever I put amanos in my 50 gallon, they survive between 1-5 days. The cherries are doing well though, growing and breeding.


Got it... I may just have to get 200 cherry shrimp to do the job of 30 amanos or wait till I stop dosing excel.

How much excel do you dose? I'll ask the people at GWAPA who dose excel and have amanos how often and how much. Maybe it's the combo of dose and CO2?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Could be the combination, unsure.

I dose per instructions for a 50 gallon tank (5ml daily). It's mainly a display tank, and not really for shrimp. I was trying to get the amanos to eat some spirogyra that popped up while I was on vacation for 3 weeks. They don't eat it, and they do die. The excel, however, worked well against the spirogyra, and it's now gone (and subsequently, the amanos are no longer needed).


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

mordalphus said:


> Could be the combination, unsure.
> 
> I dose per instructions for a 50 gallon tank (5ml daily). It's mainly a display tank, and not really for shrimp. I was trying to get the amanos to eat some spirogyra that popped up while I was on vacation for 3 weeks. They don't eat it, and they do die. The excel, however, worked well against the spirogyra, and it's now gone (and subsequently, the amanos are no longer needed).


Same is happening for my hair/thread algae.

Do your cherries do any algae deforestation? From what I've heard they are pretty but useless for algae.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Cherry shrimp do nothing for algae. They eat shrimp food and biofilm though.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Have never acclimated fish or shrimp for more than an hour or two, including Amano and cherry shrimps.\,discus,appisto's.
With that said,, I do not consider ten minutes ,drip,or otherwise to be suitable acclimation for anything I am fond of, or paid for.
Would not rule out new,or old copper lines perhaps in combination with copper in trace mineral's (CSM+B,Flourish comprehensive)


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

roadmaster said:


> Have never acclimated fish or shrimp for more than an hour or two, including Amano and cherry shrimps.\,discus,appisto's.
> With that said,, I do not consider ten minutes ,drip,or otherwise to be suitable acclimation for anything I am fond of, or paid for.
> Would not rule out new,or old copper lines perhaps in combination with copper in trace mineral's (CSM+B,Flourish comprehensive)


Copper is on the list as well

I must be very lucky with fish because the 10-20 minutes I usually use and no losses in the first week thus far... Even coral red pencilfish, cardinals, angels, otos, apistos...


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Just to chime in, since I am the seller.

First- sorry you are having troubles. It is never fun to have these struggles when trying to do something new with your tank and I hope you won't get disheartened. I am glad the coral reds did well, shrimp are a different ball game. They are mcuh more sensitive to many things-ferts, co2, and nitrates in particular.


I DO acclimate invertebrates the way I wrote about. Keep in mind, I am an importer. The stocking density of each bag is SUPER high, the water is very foul, and I am getting in thousands of species at once. While drip acclimation over a prolonged period makes sense for a hobbyist getting 10-50 shrimp, for me, I would not sleep for a week. I do use a prolonged drip over several days when I get in Sulawesi shrimp, otherwise, they have all done fine with my methods.

I wish I could chime in more on the co2 things, but I don't and haven't used co2 so am not able to. I CAN chime in on a few other things though. You mentioned your nitrate was up because of decomposing shrimp- I would expect ammonia to be up, especially that quickly after dead shrimp are found. I would double check those nitrate levels, making sure to really shake that reagant bottle for the amount of time it states, and being very precise with time on checking the test readings. It is a bit of pain in teh butt to get accurate nitrate readings. Amanos, in my experience, are very sensitive to any levels of nitrate over 20 ppm. This can make high tech dosing a challenge, especially within the first few weeks of adding them to a tank. There are a few people in GWAPA who have experienced this, and several on here as well. The tank water they come from is:
pH 7.5, gh 6, kh 7, tds 170ish, temp 77 ammo 0, nitrite 0, nitrate less than 5.
Also, really double check any bottled and purchased ferts for copper. I know many can contain it. I also know many people who have had issues with excel. I think the multitude of thigns that are just slightly not ideal for these shrimp might be doign them in when they come from pretty plain water here.

What would I do if it were me? Honestly, I would pick up a little 10g (will be great for holding your trimmings). Do not add co2, do not add ferts, _do_ add the amano shrimp. If the shrimp survive in there, it is not your source water. This is assuming you still have surviving amano shrimp. Even a rubbermaid, pitcher, whatever with airstone would work.

If they survive in there, then we need to figure out if it is ferts, co2, or some residual in your tank (have you ever treated with meds that contain copper in this tank).

It will be difficult to find out WHAT exactly is getting them unless you have the time and inclination to really remove possible causes one at a time. 

Hope that helps- I will also respond to the email you sent me, but wanted to chime in here as well.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

sundragon said:


> I learn something in this hobby daily
> 
> So there's no way to determine unless I test the water in the bag first?
> 
> ...


Yea so what you just said is the issue. Without testing the water initially you cannot know how different the parameters between the water they came in, and your tank water is. So dripping as long of a time as possible is best.

If the parameters are close you can drip them in for ~30mins. I've done 6 hour drips before, I hook it up, leave for school, come back and then retest the water. It's definitely a pain.

I still think your issue is CO2 though. And if you have a regulator you can slowly increase the bps over a course of a week. It definitely is a lot of work but you won't be introducing livestock frequently anyway right?


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## Lifeblood (Jan 31, 2012)

Exactly. You don't have to watch the drip for 45 minutes or 6 hours, you put it in a sufficiently large container start a very slow drip and do something else.

When you are buying 20-30 amano for a couple dollars each it is not that big of a deal but when the shrimp cost 10-100 dollars each, you take your time.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

msjinkzd said:


> Just to chime in, since I am the seller.
> 
> First- sorry you are having troubles. It is never fun to have these struggles when trying to do something new with your tank and I hope you won't get disheartened. I am glad the coral reds did well, shrimp are a different ball game. They are mcuh more sensitive to many things-ferts, co2, and nitrates in particular.
> 
> ...


I appreciate the chime in

I did the Seachem ammonia test and it showed no ammonia. I did a double test on this one - the kit allows up to 6 at one time.

I also know how finicky API's nitrate kit is so I did the obligatory 2 minute timed shake to get the resulting 20.
The nitrates run at 5 usually over the last 4 weeks - I hadn't dosed nitrates in ferts but I will keep an eye on that daily. 

I have a QT tank - I normally don't do this but I'll purchase a few and try it out in the QT. No CO2, fert, excel to see if that is the issue. 
FWIW, the algae is going away so I will stop double doing excel in a week if it continues it's demise with the ferts and adjusted lighting. 

I'll also try the release method - 10 minutes vs 45 minutes drip.

Interestingly, a fellow GWAPA member had the same issue when his tank was new using aqua soil. He wrote that after a while it resolved itself ( leached out). He did not mention ammonia or lengthy acclimation. I'll ask him about both of those. 

I'll report back on my findings. 


Sent using Carrier pigeon.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Excel shouldn't kill shrimp at that dose. But it absolutely could. Especially shrimp that eat algae as a huge part of their diet.



sundragon said:


> I have a copper kit on order to arrive soon. The excel shouldn't kill shrimp at that dose in a 57 gallon tank. It's far from the max dose.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Yea so what you just said is the issue. Without testing the water initially you cannot know how different the parameters between the water they came in, and your tank water is. So dripping as long of a time as possible is best.
> 
> If the parameters are close you can drip them in for ~30mins. I've done 6 hour drips before, I hook it up, leave for school, come back and then retest the water. It's definitely a pain.
> 
> I still think your issue is CO2 though. And if you have a regulator you can slowly increase the bps over a course of a week. It definitely is a lot of work but you won't be introducing livestock frequently anyway right?


Thank you for your input, I appreciate it.

I will try a few things some mentioned above.

I won't do a 6 hour drip, _respectfully_ - I'd rather not own fauna that require that. I respect all of you who have the patience, but unless it's a $$$ discus, or my dog/cat - not gonna do it. I think it's crazy for a $2 shrimp, lol

I run my CO2 lean - many people have high CO2 and keep amanos so I'm doubtful that alone being the cause. This is the first time I've read/heard people turning off their CO2 for a week when adding shrimp. *Respectfully*, I won't own amanos if I have to jump through hoops like that just to keep them. I don't want another algae bloom so I would have to adjust my lights, ferts, along with the CO2. and I'm in an accelerated grad program and I work, I don't have the time to monitor the tank like that.

That being said, I think it's a combination of some or all of the above.

CO2, excel, transition. I may have ridiculously high copper in my water (the brownstones on this block are can be 120+ years old).
EDIT: We may have oooold copper pipes aside from DC water which kinda sucks, lol.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Not sure if its been mentioned but the Angel fish could be killing them and just not eating them. My Betta lived with a bunch of ghost shrimp for months without ever bothering them and then out of the blue he went on a killing (not eating) spree and all were dead within a couple of days. Could be bad shrimp too or that they were exposed to extreme temps during shipping.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

trixella said:


> Not sure if its been mentioned but the Angel fish could be killing them and just not eating them. My Betta lived with a bunch of ghost shrimp for months without ever bothering them and then out of the blue he went on a killing (not eating) spree and all were dead within a couple of days. Could be bad shrimp too or that they were exposed to extreme temps during shipping.


I fear that as well - I've seen them hunt the amano - I'm selling them this weekend - could I have a killer duo that just hunts and doesn't eat?


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

That is entirely possible, however, I think it is something else- either something in the ferts, the elevated nitrate level, or just a difficulty acclimating to your higher tech setup. Those amanos had been living here for a few months, and i am confident in their health.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Lifeblood said:


> When you are buying 20-30 amano for a couple dollars each it is not that big of a deal but when the shrimp cost 10-100 dollars each, you take your time.


Agreed.

I've checked with a few GWAPA members who live near me and based on their experience they don't see a difference in survival - long vs short acclimation. Again, I think there's something additional to acclimation going on.

Not sure if i asked but do use excel in your tanks?


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

msjinkzd said:


> That is entirely possible, however, I think it is something else- either something in the ferts, the elevated nitrate level, or just a difficulty acclimating to your higher tech setup. Those amanos had been living here for a few months, and i am confident in their health.


I think your amanos are healthy. It's something I did or my conditions 

Based on previous experience - all the other fauna I've gotten from you have survived and thrived. Just look at my coral reds, otos, and cardinals in my tank thread below.

I agree with it being more than one issue.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I think I got the same batch of amano's from Rachael that you did (ordered 1 week before you) and all of them are fine in my low tech tanks.

I do dose excel 2x a week but only at 1/2 the strength, since I know the shrimp don't like it too much. I also dilute it in the water I use for a WC so I'm not squirting a concentrated amount on anything. Call me paranoid...


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

> I won't do a 6 hour drip, respectfully - I'd rather not own fauna that require that. I respect all of you who have the patience, but unless it's a $$$ discus, or my dog/cat - not gonna do it. I think it's crazy for a $2 shrimp, lol
> *Nor would I. And I agree- it is probably not necessary. What you could do is put themin a non-co2 tank, and then add some of your tank water to the qt over a week to acclimate them to the params- see what happens that way.*
> I run my CO2 lean - many people have high CO2 and keep amanos so I'm doubtful that alone being the cause. This is the first time I've read/heard people turning off their CO2 for a week when adding shrimp. Respectfully, I won't own amanos if I have to jump through hoops like that just to keep them. I don't want another algae bloom so I would have to adjust my lights, ferts, along with the CO2. and I'm in an accelerated grad program and I work, I don't have the time to monitor the tank like that.


*I do'nt think you should have to jump through hoops either, but I hate to see you lose all the money you have spent on them. Hopefully we can figure out what is actually causing your issues. I do not think it was the intial acclimation- but some attribute of your tank.*


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

sundragon said:


> I fear that as well - I've seen them hunt the amano - I'm selling them this weekend - could I have a killer duo that just hunts and doesn't eat?


Do have a breeder net or some other device to put/float the Angels in so they can't get to the shrimp? If you don't, it might be worth it to run to your lfs and pick one up until you get rid of the Angels, you can find them for around $3.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

FWIW - I just tested the water.

Ammonia tested twice with Seachem test kit - 0
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5-10 (based on 20 before yesterday's 50% water change it makes sense)


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Update: Got 12 RCS from the CCA meeting. Asked for two bags.

1 bag will be added to my display tank.

2 bag will be added to the QT with just water, no CO2, etc.

It's been 4 hours since I got home and I found one of the 6 sitting on the filter exhaust in the dislpay tank. the ones in the QT are swimming around and alive thus far...


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Nice. Doing your own test for sanity sake


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> Nice. Doing your own test for sanity sake


I have no choice, plus this hobby is all about experimenting and learning. Otherwise I'd be bored  

I wasn't happy ~30 amanos died =$$ but if I don't fail, I won't learn.

The price for the RCS was $.83/per shrimp with no delivery charges. Thus far they are alive and it's 5 hours, and ticking...

my angelfish are also at a new home so I don't have to worry about predation.

I have conflicting info on the following where people have had experience good and bad with the following:
Excel
New tank with Aquasoil
CO2
Quick drop acclimation

I have to figure out what works in my setup 

Lastly - I had a *hitchhiker*- gold laser cory cat - Little bugger made it to the bottom without being eaten. I have two Sterbai to keep him/her company if he/she makes it, lol...


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Update from the experiment...

They survived a quick acclimation in both the QT and Main. And dissappeared into the plants. Not difficult for 12 in a tank my size with lots of plants.

Saw a few last night, and a few this morning and then watched my male A. Macmasteri make shirmp cocktail out of an adult RCS right in front of me... 

Not sure if predation would be the cause of demise for the amanos... The angels ate amano shrimp as well. Maybe there were too many to eat at once?

I do know my water is probably not bad. After two days, they are alive. The quick acclimation also makes me wonder if the amano are more sensitive.

Edit: Not sure what to do next, try amano again or just wait...
I'm about to give up on inverts for a while and buy more otos, lol. They are huge, fat and happy.


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## Jadenlea (Sep 15, 2011)

Sun,

I wouldn't give up on Amanos. I love mine!!! I have found them to be quite hardy, fiesty and a blast to watch. Mine are very bold and spend all their time out and visible in my tank and none of my fish bother them. Not even the Rams or Roseline Barbs. As a matter of fact, I've watched them beat up the pleco over an algae waffer. lol I do use excel in my tank but not daily. 

Here is an idea. Do you have a petco near you? Petco usually carries the Amanos. I am sure they are no where near the quality of Rachels, but if you can drive down to the store you can just buy 2 or 3 at a time to see how they do. Once you get your tank balanced you can do another big order from rachel.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks, well this morning I found an amano alongside a cherry... Now I'm more puzzled...


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Well I found two amanos yesterday grazing with some RCS... No copper, excel (10ml daily/57 gallon) dose daily to finish off the initial algae bloom, and CO2 has been increased since the amano were added... I'm not gassing fish or shrimp either, not sure what happened.

BTW, I tossed the RCS in after a less than 5 minute acclimation to see if that was an issue, they didn't die...

The honest possibility exists that the water conditions of the bag with the amanos and my display tank were different enough that it shocked them. Almost all the members at GWAPA I asked said they do immediate acclimation with their amanos and don't lose them - I can't believe my conditions are that much different, but who knows.

I am going to order another set of amanos and try it again.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

I'd recommend watching the temps they will endure during shipping. I had a whole order of shrimp die which I believe was from them having to endure extreme temps in a very short period of time (mid 80's to low 40's).


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## jeremyTR (Mar 21, 2012)

somewhatshocked said:


> Pick up a copper test kit ASAP. If you're gonna keep shrimp, might as well have one.
> 
> You're going to have a lot of people say yes/no to Excel but that could also be the culprit.



Doubt it considering I use Excel in my shrimp tank and not one death. All my ghost/amano and both bamboo shrimps are happy as could be.


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

trixella said:


> I'd recommend watching the temps they will endure during shipping. I had a whole order of shrimp die which I believe was from them having to endure extreme temps in a very short period of time (mid 80's to low 40's).


Very good point. It's warm now so I may have better luck in that.


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Your low/night time temps are warm?


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## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

trixella said:


> Your low/night time temps are warm?


Our temperatures are fluctuating but getting warmer. The difference is usually 20 degrees. Today the high is 80 (a first this year) and the low is 53 tonight.


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