# Complexity Journal: 75g "High Tech" Planted Tank / New pics 8-24-2012!



## Complexity

I've decided to go ahead and make my own journal for my 75g tank. I have pictures and discussions about it in various threads which I want to put in here so my journal includes the tanks modest beginnings and the changes that have taken place over time. So bare with me while I get this journal together.

When I first got my 75g tank, I wasn't ready to go high tech with bright lights, pressurized CO2 and ferts even though I actually had the equipment to do it. I felt too overwhelmed with the whole thing.

So I started out very modestly by using a plain, one bulb 30" lightstrip that comes the those plastic hood/light sets. This is dim lighting at it's best! :icon_lol: With no light, came no live plants. I used silk plants to give the few fish I had at the time a little comfort. I continued this while the tank was cycling and while I was getting my act together.


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## Complexity

The beginnings of my tank's aquascape: The driftwood. I attached these pieces of driftwood to a 6" x 6" square slate tile using SS screws. You can see that I have a few other pieces for my aquascape thrown in there, such as some plants and caves, but the silk plants still ruled the tank.

Fish included at this point was my L204 Pleco that has gone from a 5g tank to my 20Long and then, finally, to my 75g. I also have some male guppies that helped to cycle the tank. And by this point, I had added about 11 cardinal tetras that I had in another tank.


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## Complexity

Once I decided on my driftwood design, the next step was to attach some _Fissidens fontanus_ to the driftwood. At this point, I also removed all of my silk plants. The plants in the tank are not actually planted. They're still in their pots or were just dropped in. It's a start!

Also, I forgot that by this time I also had about 40 amano shrimp in the tank, a blue german ram and an apisto cockatoo. I was trying the ram and apisto to see if they could handle my 8.0 pH water. The answer: yes, they can! The guy at the LFS said if my water could handle Cardinal Tetras, then the rams and apistos would be fine. It helps that the fish I buy has already been acclimated to our high pH by having been in the LFS tanks for at least 10 days.

My canopy is not on the tank. It's on my floor! I'm rigging up the lighting.


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## Complexity

I started out with an Eheim 2128 filter which I like. But I wanted to add a second filter. My choice was to add a Rena XP4. Since I already know I will be overstocking this tank, filtration is very important to me.

The big question for me was where to place the filter intakes and outputs! Having good filters doesn't matter if you don't create a good filtration circulation in the water. So I created a few diagrams to ask others what they thought. Nobody liked idea #1! #4 turned out to be the most popular.

I purchased two of the Customflo kits to be able to design a customized intake/output system. Each intake and output connection comes with its own flow control so you can ensure they all work together. For example, to ensure the second intake screen had enough pressure to actually suck in water, you turn the first one down. This way, both intake screens suck in the same amount of water equally.


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## Complexity

At this point, I have managed to get the pressurized CO2 working, using a rex reactor custom made for me by Orlando (thanks again!). It's connected to the Rena XP4.

I've bought a bunch of java fern and anubias to serve as my basic plants for my tank. I did this because they would help me go through the transition from a low light tank to a high light one; plus, they would work as my backbone plants to lower my overall plant maintenance since they need so little care. I intend to add stems to add color and texture to the whole design. But the stems won't be added until I get my lighting set up the way I want.

I also have new fish! I very recently had the incredible surprise of finding lots of my favorite fish at one of my LFSs! They had a large selection of Pelvicachromis taeniatus available. They had so many different ones, it was very hard to decide which to get! I decided on three pairs: Kienke (my definite favorites!), Moliwe and Nigerian Red. I decided on the Nigerian Red because they reminded me of the old fashioned, regular Kribensis that I had over 30 years ago. Their overall pattern and fin shape is a little different from the other P. taeniatus.

I also added 10 Torpedo Barbs, _Puntius denisonii_. They are also known as Roseline Sharks, Red Line Sharks, and Denison's Barbs. Whatever name people use, these fish are incredible! They grow to a fabulous size of 4"-5", like to shoal (but also swim independently, as well) and — best of all — are peaceful! They are an incredible fish to add to a community tank! Their coloring is outstanding. Very true, very bright and clean red and yellow with a strong black, all of which stands out nicely from their overall silver color. You have to see these fish to believe them!


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## nate_mcnasty

that looks awesome can't wait to see more plants in there


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## i love planted tanks

if you are going to use 2 input and out put i would use the last sketch it is perfect for your tank or i think the way you have it in the real pic is realy good.the out take on the left side of the tank and the intake on the right side of the tank perfect water flow.good luck with your new tank looks nice


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## Complexity

So this brings me up to now.


*Tank Equipment:*
Eheim Pro II 2128 — I regret getting the version with the heater because the electrical and temperature probe cords are connected to the filter base and not the top like normal. This means I cannot remove the top and pick up the base without having to deal with cords. I have to unplug the probe and heater electrical cord and drag these around whenever I move the filter base. While I don't need to move the base very often, it's just an extra hassle I would have avoided if I had known better. My tank temperature stays around 76°F without a heater so I really didn't even need the heater in the filter. I just thought it would be handy. Turns out, it's more of a hassle than handy.
Turbo Twist 12X 36w UV Sterilizer — this is setup inline from the output of my Eheim. I replaced my 3X 9w sterilizer for this larger one because of my flow rate from the Eheim. Rather than slow down the flow of the Eheim, I opted to get a much larger sterilizer that can handle the flow.
Rena XP4 — My second filter to ensure that I had more than overkill for filtration in the tank. It also allows me to clean out one filter while leaving the other running and with undisturbed bacteria. I also think this will be a good idea as the filters age should one filter break down for some reason. I won't have to panic that my tank is left without filtration while I'm fixing one of the filters.
Rex CO2 Reactor — this was custom made for my by Orlando! I love it! He did a fantastic job of making it. I'm still trying to get the CO2 setup so right now, I'm getting some bubbles, but I think I can clear that up with better experience on my part.
Customflo kits — I bought two of the complete kits. Obviously, I'm pretty anal regarding filtration. The kits help me, as a beginner, to have enough parts to do just what it says — customize the intake and output flow of the filters. I very much like them! However, I think they are inherently designed with one flaw. The "u" that takes the filters over the tank edge use slip on joints on both sides, the part that goes into the tank and also the part that connects to the filter's output hose. This means that if the output hose gets pulled accidentally, it can very easily become disconnected from the "u" going over the tank edge which would then result in having the output water hose start blowing water all over the room! No way could I live with that risk. So I used JB Weld epoxy to glue the slip joints. Now an accidental tug won't cause my room to become flooded!
TEK 4 x 54 lighting — What a nice fixture! But I'm not using it yet. I am rigging up my canopy so that the lights will be able to shine down on the tank, as normal, when I'm not working on the tank or am just opening the canopy while feeding the fish, BUT the lights can also be hung on the canopy when it's open! This way, instead of having the lights blinding me in the face when the canopy's open, they will be hung up in a way that allows me to work inside the tank while the lights are up and out of the way, but still shining light into the tank so I can see what I'm doing. When I get this finished, I'll take pictures of how I rigged it and how well it works.
Giesemann Lamps — I'm running two Giesemann 54W 11000K Aquablue Plus and two 54W 6000K Midday Sun lamps. I can run the fixture with either 2 or 4 lamps turned on so I'll start with just 2 lamps, one of each type.
Pressurized CO2 — I have a 10 lbs canister with the normal Milwaukee regulator, solenoid, and bubble counter setup. I'm also using the ADG Double Check drop counter to help me learn how much CO2 to put in the tank to reach a good level. I've been scared to setup my pressurized CO2 (my phobia), but lots of really great people on this board have held my hand through each step so that I'm finally becoming comfortable with it.
Eco-Complete substrate — I chose it mostly because I wanted a black substrate and could not find the black Flourite anywhere! Funny thing is that I got what has been called a "bad batch" of Eco-Complete so it's not completely black. It has pieces of different colors (all dark). Turns out I like the color mix as it looks more natural to me.
DFW red oak stand and canopy — this rivals the Oceanic red oak stand and canopy, but I actually think it's prettier because it has a lip on the stand that hides the tank's trim. This is made by a company in the Dallas/Fort Worth metroplex (as if the company's name doesn't give that away). I don't know how far they ship their stands and canopies, but I really recommend them.
All-Glass brand 75g tank — Not much to say here other than it's a quality tank. I like the 75g size due to its dimensions of 48L x 18W x 21T. The 55g is only 12" wide which limits the footprint for the fish, and the 90g tank is 25" tall which makes it harder for me to reach into for scaping. So the 75g was the perfect choice for me.


*Current Plants:* This list isn't complete, but these are the most significant plants in the tank at the moment.
Anubias barteri 'barteri' - a super large plant I got from the swap-n-shop (SNS) forum here. It arrived with BBA on it (which I knew when I bought it) which I have treated with a 1:20 ratio of bleach for 2 minutes. The plant is left with a white beard on the leaves which I'm hoping will disintegrate over time. Some of the leaves have turned yellow, especially around the bottom, but that's because it hasn't received CO2 or ferts since I got it. The CO2 is now turned on so I just have to figure out the ferts which I know will really help this plant.
Anubias barteri 'nana' — received from same person as the 'barteri' above. Same BBA, same bleach treatment, same results. But the plants are HUGE for being nanas so I think they are still worth having.
Anubias barteri 'coffeefolia' - I found a very nice specimen at a LFS. I'd like to add a few more.
Cryptocoryne willisii 'lucens' - Three nice pots of this from a LFS. Not planted yet. They're being held in the tank while still in their pots. They've been doing great that way for over a month.
Microsorum pteropus (Java Fern) - just a few small plants that I removed from another tank.
Microsorum pteropus 'Windelov' (Windelov Java Fern) - a really nice, large, well shaped plant I got from the SNS here.
Microsorum pteropus "needle leaves" (Needle Leaf Java Fern) — I have a LOT of this! Again, from a SNS deal. Unfortunately, one of the large plants was damaged when I had to stop working on it while I was in the middle of rinsing it in plain untreated water. Then the plant stayed like that for 3 days. So the leaves aren't as wonderful as they were when I first got them. But my kids needed my attention so the plant lost out. It's still very healthy so it'll do well once I clean it up and give it some CO2 and ferts.
Vallisneria — I don't know what kind it is. It's not corkscrew because the leaves are straight. They're pretty long so it's a tall variety. I got this as a freebie in a SNS deal. Right now, they're bundled together and weighted to keep them alive, but they are not planted yet.
 Fissidens fontanus — Yet another great buy from the SNS here. I have it tied to my driftwood. Very pretty plant!


*Fish and Inverts:*
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke' — I have a fabulous pair that I think was already paired off at the LFS's tank. They coupled together instantly and are already showing lots of breeding signs. These are absolutely beautiful fish!
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Moliwe' — Another fabulous pair of dwarf cichlids. The Kienkes have taken over the entire front of the tank so I don't see my Moiliwes as much. When I actually get my tank scaped, I will do what I can to break things up so each Pelvicachromis pair has it's own territory. If this doesn't work, I can always move a pair to my 20Long (which I'll be changing out for a 29g tank).
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Nigerian Red' — My 3rd pair of what I sometimes refer to "fancy Kribensis" (Kribensis is supposed to be used only for the old, traditional Pelvicachromis pulcher, but most people seem to know all of the Pelvicachromis species better if you just say Kribs). While these were the most expensive of my three pairs, they are not the fanciest by pattern or color. They are more like the old, traditional Kribs which is one reason why I got them. The male's tail will be pointed and both sexes will have the traditional black spot markings. So I got them since they bring back fond memories from my first set of Kribs over 30 years ago.
Puntius denisonii (Torpedo Barbs) — How many common names can a fish have? They are also called Roseline Sharks, Red Line Torpedo Barbs and Denison's Barbs. Geeez! By whatever name, these are absolutely incredible fish! I have 10 of them. They grow to about 4"-5", have outstandingly bright and pure red, yellow and black markings on a shiny silver body, and they will schoal together and swim independently. They are always in motion, usually in the middle of the tank, but they'll go up and down, as well. But the best part of these fish is that they are peaceful! They make a great addition to a community tank. Definitely a star among fish!
Apistogramma cacatuoides (Apisto Cockatoo) — I finally got one to see if I could have one in my high 8.0 pH water. The answer is YES! Unfortunately, he scraped himself when I was adding rocks into the tank so he's currently in a H/T (hospital tank) being treated until his wound heals. He's doing really great in his H/T. I think he likes having the whole tank to himself!
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (Blue German Ram) — Another fish I was testing to see if it can handle my high pH. Yes, he can! And he's so beautiful. I'm not sure if I'll give him a mate or not. He is a bit more shy with all the Pelvicachromis fish in there, but he seems to be coming around. He also seems to miss his buddy, my apisto that I mentioned above. I'm hoping that when his friend rejoins the tank, the two will keep each other company, helping to ease the stress for them both. If not, then I'll move one or both to other tanks.
Paracheirodon axelrodi (Cardinal Tetras) — I've been slowly adding these to be my main small shoaling dither fish. I have 11 in the tank so far with 10 more in Q/T. I'm not sure how many I'll get in total. It'll just depend on how many it takes for them to make a real show of themselves in the tank. I can say that 11 is not enough. We'll see what it looks like when I get the other 10 in there.
Poecilia reticulata (Guppies) — All male! I started out with just a few, right? Now I have the males and females seperated. Yes, I know the females will continue to give birth, but it will eventually stop with no males around. I like the guppies just as colorful dither fish. But as they die, I won't be replacing them. I just noticed one of my smaller males (from some fry I had) has lost its tail. So I have a bad feeling he got into the Pelvicachromis' territory and did not move out fast enough. This particular male has always been strange. He never socialized very well and grew much slower and smaller than all the rest. So I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that he'd get hurt in that tank. I'll probably euthanize him if his tail is too far gone. Poor guy. But the other guppies are doing well. Kind of a dumb, but happy and colorful dither fish.
Caridina multidentata/japonica (Amano Shrimp) — Yes, this is the algae eating shrimp made famous by Takashi Amano. I absolutely adore these shrimp! I have about 40 in the tank, 30 of which are thanks to yet another great SNS buy. These shrimp have personality. Not only do they do their job of cleaning, they are so much fun to watch. If you drop an algae wafer in the tank, one shrimp will snatch the wafer right out from underneath a group of fish and then swim off with it! They walk and swim everywhere in the tank. They will even swim upside down at the surface of the tank to catch floating food. They eat anything and everything (except living animals in the tank). I got a few on a lark a long time ago when I saw them for a great price, and ever since then, I've been in love with them. No, they aren't the most colorful shrimp, but what they lack in color, they make up for in personality!
Panaque sp. (L204 Flash Pleco) — This fish has been with me since early on when I started back into having tanks. He started out as a little guy in a 5g tank and was then moved to my 20Long tank when I got that set up. He finally was placed in his intended home, my 75g tank, when I got it. He was the first fish I put in my 75g tank. If you haven't seen a L204, you're missing out. They are very beautiful with an incredible tail! They are shy and like wood. They can also be territorial when they get older. I have a male who has shown some territorial aggression, but not bad. I only know of one fish he bit, a female guppy in my 20L who was trying to steal his algae wafer. He could also be the one who has bitten off the tail of my male guppy in the tank now, but I doubt it. He doesn't ask for a very large territory which is good. I have a new slate cave I've made for him, and once I decorate the outside so it will look more natural, I'll see if he'll take to it when I scape the tank.


Still on my plans for this tank, other than a LOT of colorful plants, is to add about 5 zebra loaches (Botia striata) and possibly a few SAEs (the true ones). But that's it. The tank is already getting very crowded and overstocked (one reason I'll let the male guppies fade out over time).

Right now, I'm doing my best to finish getting the equipment going and working to have a good environment for plants. Then I can worry about finishing the aquascaping. I have a few ideas that may or may not work, such as using waterfall foam to make clay pots and PVC pipes blend in more naturally into the aquascape. I also want to add some natural rocks to make more natural caves. I think this tank will require A LOT of caves to make it successful. But if I do run into fish conflicts, there's always room for more tanks! 

Okay, that brings the journal up to date. I'll edit this thread as things change to keep my equipment, plants and fish lists as up to date as I can.


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## Complexity

nate_mcnasty said:


> that looks awesome can't wait to see more plants in there


Thanks! I can't wait for more plants, too, especially some colorful stems. I'm getting much closer to being able to add them. I might be able to get my lights rigged up today which just leaves getting ferts and figuring out how to use them correctly. Then, bring on the stems! 



i love planted tanks said:


> if you are going to use 2 input and out put i would use the last sketch it is perfect for your tank or i think the way you have it in the real pic is realy good.the out take on the left side of the tank and the intake on the right side of the tank perfect water flow.good luck with your new tank looks nice


Yeah, that last one is what most people suggested so that's what I'm using right now (on my XP4; I haven't changed my Eheim to use the Customflo kit yet).

One of the advantages of the Customflo kits is that you really can customize your filtration circulation. I can add intake screens at the bottom of my tank by just piping it down there and using an elbow. The kit also comes with 2 spray bars for each filter so I can have a spray bar at the top and middle, at the top and bottom or at the top and horizontal to form a long, "upside down L" design.

Right now, I have what's pictured in the last design pictured except the intake does not have another intake screen at the bottom (just two in the middle) and the output not only has the spray bar at the top, but I also have a flexible output "bar" of sorts that I can point to any direction to add to the flow at the middle part of the tank.

What I really like is that this gives me a lot of really nice, gentle flow throughout the tank so I can avoid dead spots, but not have any currents that blow over the plants. The kits are not perfect, but they work great for someone like me who's wanting something beyond what's supplied with the canisters, but is not advanced enough to start creating their own using pvc piping from the local hardware store.


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## mott

Great journal! nice and detailed, can't wait to see it all come together.


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## Complexity

Thanks, mott! I was afraid it was way _too_ detailed! I just wish I had taken more pictures of it all along.


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## MikeyP

Damn, for some reason those pics look fake!! Its something about the coloring and there like perfect!!! I call BLUFF on this tank......


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. ahhhahahaaaa Just joking man. tank is looking REALLY nice. But some of the pics really do look fake for some reason (maybe its my screen on the laptop)!!! And thats also some detailed info you go going there, see my ADD doesnt allow me enough time to read all of it tho  Great job and keep it up doooooooooooooooood....


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## Complexity

LOL! Not fake, I guaranty you. But I did not adjust the colors in the pics so the tank looks much too red. When I took those pics, I was only using them to show the way the driftwood was shaped.

I'll be posting more pics soon, and then I'll concern myself with the colors more.

BTW, what's that big brown thing that keeps following your posts? Is that a dollhouse miniature?

:hihi:


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## Complexity

Fishdood25 said:


> And thats also some detailed info you go going there, see my ADD doesnt allow me enough time to read all of it tho


Yeah, I knew that would happen. It's there for those who want to read it while others can skip it. This is a _"take what you want and leave the rest"_ thread. 

BTW, as you can see, I'm a highly focused and detailed person. Now imagine this: my husband and both children have ADD!  There are times in which we all drive each other nuts! :icon_lol:


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## MikeyP

Ohh Im just busting your nards......WAIT a min, Vicki aye......hmmm well I cant bust those than  Im just messing with you, dont take any offence ........BUT lets talk about this "brown thing" thats following me around, now I had a long day and to the life of me cant figure out wat in the heck you are talking about unless you mean that turd of a tank thats in my sig!!! YES YES over my head for sure!! LOL


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## MikeyP

Complexity said:


> Yeah, I knew that would happen. It's there for those who want to read it while others can skip it. This is a _"take what you want and leave the rest"_ thread.
> 
> BTW, as you can see, I'm a highly focused and detailed person. Now imagine this: my husband and both children have ADD!  There are times in which we all drive each other nuts! :icon_lol:


 
LOL, thats funny, at 1st I thought you were a doooood, till I read your name in sig:eek5: oooops. Sorry ma'am!!


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## TheCryptKeeper

nice journal.. very informative... I want to see pics of the roselinetorpedodenisoniisharkbarbs! :hihi:


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## @[email protected]

wow, lot of writing, heh. 

nice start, though. not much else to really say yet.


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## Complexity

Torpedobarb said:


> roselinetorpedodenisoniisharkbarbs! :hihi:


I'm busting a gut with that one! :hihi:

Since you put it that way, I have no choice but to oblige! Pictures coming tomorrow. 

Marko, no problem. I think I did enough talking (writing) for the both of us. :redface:


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## Tex Gal

When my kribs spawned they took over 1/2 of my 125g. They kept all the other fish (which were many!) all the way to the other side. Can't imagine fitting 3 breeding pair into a 75g. Oh my, I think I hear someone saying, "I NEED ANOTHER TANK!!" !


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## Complexity

I may indeed have a problem given how aggressive the Kienke pair have become. At least they are my favorites of them all!

I've heard mixed comments on whether I can keep all 3 pairs in a 75g tank. Most say yes as long as I am very good with caves and breaking up the tank to give separate territories. Others think I'm nuts! The real answer is probably a little of both. 

I'm getting concerned that they are going to spawn or have already spawned in their current cave. I want to move that cave when I actually aquascape the tank. But if they've spawned in it already...

I need to do some research to figure out if either will stay in the cave once they do spawn. I can't remember since it's been so long since I've have kribs.


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## Tex Gal

Once mine spawned, one of the fish stayed in the cave most of the time. Once in a while I would see them both out. Their guarding got much more vigilant when their eggs were present. Then when the eggs hatched they would bring them out to eat and put them back at night. 

I bet you have eggs if they are being that aggressive already. Wait a few days. It's doesn't take them that long to hatch. You'll know soon enough.  CONGRATS!!!!

BTW I love the color of the ones you have. If you do have a spawn I may have to meet up with you a buy a couple off of you!! (Can't believe I just said that - may have to put up another tank, OH MY!!! :icon_eek


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## Complexity

I tried to look inside the cave with a flashlight — which neither fish liked at all — but I didn't see any signs of eggs. Also, both fish leave the cave and don't seem to have a driving need to get back right away. They'll graze a little, chase a little, and then go back as if it's home base. But I don't see any major guarding of the cave door so to speak. And I'm also not seeing any moving of the substrate which they like to do to make their cave special just for them.

So all these things put together makes me feel they have not spawned. They are definitely interested in each other and the female looks so purple, you'd think she's going to start glowing! But they're still courting each other.

They're probably not feeling comfortable about spawning since I keep messing with the tank every day. But I have a feeling that once I get the tank settled so they can be together without my constant disturbances, they will probably spawn right away.

I have high pH, and I know the pH affects whether the spawn are males or females or both. I need to look up which sex you get with high pH. It would be interesting to know if I'd get mostly male or female fry. Or maybe a mix since I have pressurized CO2 which will lower my pH. I should probably do a pH test, too, to see how the CO2 is affecting it.

If these guys do spawn, I have enough tanks to work as a grow out tank. When I replace my 20L for my 29, that will leave my 20L empty which is the perfect size for a krib grow out tank!


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## nikonD70s

tanks coming along nicely! cant wait to see new pics with the roseline in it! by the way how much did you get your roseline for complexity? i just bought 4 the other day for only $10 cheapest i've ever seen. i fell in love with them and came back the next day and bought 4 more, and im wanting more! i was thinking of getting rid of my cardinals and rummy's just so i can keep more of them, they are very beautiful fishes!


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## Complexity

$10! That is a fantastic price! I paid $18 for mine. How large are yours? Mine are what I would call medium sized. Around 3". I saw some at another store that were smaller, but they were asking for something like $30 each. I agree they are incredibly beautiful! I think it's how pure and bold the colors are. Not a faded, sort of red, but a true, bright red. Same for the yellow. While the black and silver just make the colors stand out even more. They have a really sweet body shape, too.

I'm getting a little further with my tank. The CO2 is going well, and I ordered my dry ferts. I hope to have the lights done today so I can get the canopy back on. That will look much better. And then with some real light in the tank, I'll be able to take some better pictures. Right now, to get the inside of the tank bright enough, I have to increase the exposure which then distorts the cabinet's color.

The plants, caves and all on the inside are crazy! Most aren't actually planted. They're either dropped in or are floating around or are still in their pots, buried in the substrate. I have some dwarf riccia that I'm floating that I had to create a "floating cage" so I didn't get riccia all over the tank. I think I'll make another one for my floating stems since some are getting blown into the plants at the bottom, making a bigger mess. And I have other various plants either melting (new crypts) or turning yellow (bleach treated anubias). At least my large bleach treated anubias is fine, but the nanas need those ferts right away. And then I have rocks, clay pots and pvc pipes strewn about to make quick caves.

I was thinking last night of how I'll have to go about truly planting everything to make some kind of real aquascape. I'm going to have to create a temporary holding bin to put it all in so I can pull them all out to give me the space to actually plant them.

Hopefully, by this time next week, I'll have my ferts, my lights and the plants will be planted. So I'm very close to going high tech! And then the fun begins! I'm thinking of checking to see if there's a record for how many different kinds of algae a person can get in a tank all at once! :icon_lol:


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## Complexity

OMG, I actually have light on my tank now! All this time, I have used an old 30" single bulb fluorescent fixture. 18watt T-8. So that meant I had only 1/4 watts per gallon. That's right, 0.24 watts per gallon. I did that intentionally to keep the algae at bay. Keep in mind that I started with just silk plants. They don't need much light. But today my husband helped me get the canopy and lights on, and WOW! Even with only 2 bulbs turned on, these lights are incredible! The fish colors are magnificent! With just two of my TEK fixture's bulbs running, I've jumped from 18w to 108w! That's 1.44wpg. And while that's still low, it is a huge difference between the basic flourescent lamp and the Giesemann lamps! Wow, the tank is amazingly bright! And I only have half the lighting turned on so far.

I also noticed that I have a second pair of my pelvicachromis showing mating signs. They've taken yet another cave. So that's two pairs doing their thing, my Kienke and Nigerian Red pairs.

The third pair, the Moliwe, is not quite ready yet. The female seems a big young still, but we'll see. So far, no damaging chasing or anything so they might do well later. They're just not doing the shimmy with each other yet.

I'll have to get a picture of my tank tomorrow now that it can actually be seen with the lights. I have my CO2 running and my ferts are ordered. So I'm about to make the plunge from very low light to high light/high tech this coming week. What this means is that I can now enter the contest for having the most algae growing in a tank at one time! :icon_lol:

Wish me luck for this next week or so. I think I'll need it.


----------



## starsunmoon

pics pics. pics !!!! I wanna see it, I LLOOOVVEE your ideas !!! wow,. I would love to make that waterfall your talking about doing , and cant wait to see your newest members of life, sounds sooo interesting, I have never owned kribs > but you are making me truly want a pair , do they eat any plants or are they good... ?? LOL< please update, !! I wanna see your tank !! and I love the place you live ~~~ sugarland, I bet its meat there, tell us more !! about the town, (I wanna know more) and also abotu this buetiful tank, I am foing to be setting up a 90 gallon, and a 38 gallon hex soon to go with all my others, I need to sell a few, its just so hard to do !!! LOL, pictures ppllleeaaasseeeee~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## TheCryptKeeper

Complexity said:


> I'm busting a gut with that one! :hihi:
> 
> Since you put it that way, I have no choice but to oblige! Pictures coming tomorrow.
> 
> Marko, no problem. I think I did enough talking (writing) for the both of us. :redface:



ok... tomorrow has come and gone a few times and still no pics!


----------



## Complexity

Well, you know how it is. For every day, tomorrow is always the day after. :hihi:

I finally took some pics, but haven't resized them yet. I'm still trying to get things to work!

I got the canopy on with the TEK lights only to discover that the braces I used to hold the lights in place blocked my ability to open the glass covers to feed my fish!  So I had to have my husband help me hoist the canopy back down, move the braces, and give it another try. Now I can feed my fish! 

Star, kribs are very plant friendly. They do a little digging, but only at the entrance of their cave. And their kind of digging is basically "pick up one piece of substrate, swim over there, spit it out, go back to get another piece..." so it's not like they're diving into the substrate and uprooting everything.

While waiting on me to get the pics ready, there are a couple of threads regarding how I'm trying to get the electrical plugs customized (thanks to BiscuitSlayer's expertise!) and how I'm trying to rig up the lights so they can be moved into a hanging position when I'm working on the tank.

Let me get the links to those threads and post them. The thread about the lights has some pictures of my canopy!


----------



## Complexity

Electrical plugs:

Okay, this thread is where everyone is helping me design a customized electrical panel with water protection in the event of a catastrophic failure (tank breaking). The water protection won't be perfect, but it should be helpful.

Once we get the design figured out, BiscuitSlayer will do the actual work and post a DIY thread so others can give it a try.

The electrical panel will be awesome when it's done! I can't wait!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...50-how-you-handling-all-electrical-plugs.html


----------



## Complexity

Hanging lights:

In this thread, it shows how I'm using retractable brackets to create a place to hang my TEK light fixture from the canopy lid so I can get the lights out of the way, but still have light shining in the tank when I'm working on it.

This was my own design, and whether it works or not, I'm proud of it. It took a lot of searching and thinking to finally come up with a way to do this. I didn't even know these kinds of brackets existed!

In this thread, I'm trying to find the best method of supporting the lid open to carry the weight of the lights.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/68966-need-help-selecting-lid-support-diy.html

I just posted the thread so no replies yet. But there are pictures of the design if anyone wants to see. I'll copy the pictures over here once I finish with the lid support. That way, it'll all be in this single thread.


----------



## Tex Gal

Very cool how you have hung your light. So how are your lights hanging when the canopy is closed? Are they just up against the top of the wood?

Surely some of those hinges on your link will work. It reminds me of the ones that hold up the SUV tailgates. I'm sure some can take quite a bit of weight.


----------



## Complexity

I'm sure some of the hinges will work, too, but I just don't know which ones. And no way am I risking my TEK fixture and bulbs (not to mention glass all in my tank) to test out the wrong ones.

When I'm not working on the tank, the lights will be removed from the hanging brackets and placed inside my canopy where I have put braces to hold it in place. The hanging brackets on the canopy lid will be closed, and I have some strips of velcro to keep them from opening up accidentally when I lift the lid.

So I will be literally moving the lights from resting inside the canopy to hanging off of the brackets.


----------



## Complexity

Finally, pictures! 

This shows the whole setup together. The color of the wood is much more true in these pictures. It's a beautiful red mahogany stain on oak. I love the rich red color!










You can see the box for my Rena XP4 that I just installed! I still have a few things out of place as I work on getting the CO2, lights and other hardware matters taken care of.

So far, the CO2 is running well (just a few bubbles coming out). I'm using my TEK fixture with only two bulbs running (makes it 1.44wpg which is still pretty low/med lighting). And my ferts should be arriving today or maybe tomorrow.










If you look at the bottom right corner, you'll see my mess of electrical cords. This is why I really need to do something about this. At first, I had the power strips further away which seemed okay, but as I added more stuff, not only did I fill up the power strips, but the cords were too short to allow me to keep them far enough away to make them safe. I even have one power strip on the floor! Bad idea. Hopefully, with Biscuit's help, this can be made much more safe.










Ah, the "drag and drop" method of aquascaping! Yes, this is a total mess. There is absolutely no scaping done at all. Looking closely, you'll see plants still in their pots, one is turned over sideways, one plant is floating upside down, lots of stems floating wherever, with leaves caught in my filter strainer! I created a holding container for my riccia so it wouldn't overtake my entire tank (that's the big square thing floating on the left side).

Caves of all sorts are strewn about. I hadn't planned to get my pelvicachromis (kribs) when I did so I didn't have time to make nice caves for them. Instead, I took everything I had on hand that could be considered a cave and dropped it all in. So there are some lace rock caves, some caves made by placing plants tied to holy rocks together, some plain clay pots and lots of pvc pipes. Not very pretty, but they serve the function intended.










And a close up of the tank itself. What a mess! :icon_lol:

Trying to switch from low tech to high tech is a bit of a challenge so I've trying to get a number of plants that can handle both environments, mainly java ferns and anubias. Plus, I want them to serve as basic green low maintenance plants that will then let the more high maintenance, more colorful stems take front stage. Being a regular gardener, I guess these are the shrubs, and the stems will be the centerpiece plants. At least that's the idea.










I have some more pictures to post a little later. They're more of the fish themselves. I'm not a great photographer and I have a very old camera, but I did my best. So more pictures coming soon!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I think it looks great... the stand and canopy are beautiful.. good job! I know that the pipes are for the kribs to hide and spawn in.. but I personally think that the clutter up the tank.. wish there were a different way to do it. but looks great!


----------



## Complexity

Oh, no, no, no... those pvc pipes are only temporary. I stuck them in there because that's what I had on hand when I came home with my 3 pairs of Pelvicachromis. While the kribs were being drip acclimated, I grabbed everything I had that I knew could work as temporary caves and just threw it all into the tank.

I may keep the pvc pipes later, but only if I can camouflage them using the waterfall foam. Otherwise, they're outta there. But they do make great caves for fish in either Q/T or H/T. I had them for when I got my dwarf chain loaches in Q/T. So I'll keep some just as they are in storage for the next time I have a need for quick caves.


----------



## Tex Gal

Your plants look so healthy! Your fish look so happy! Looks pretty nice to be such a mess!!  Work on girl!


----------



## Complexity

Finally got my fertilizers today! That's the last piece of the 3-way balance puzzle (light, plants and ferts). So it's time for a 50% water change, a bit of a clean up for floating plants that didn't make it, and then my first time to add ferts!

I'm starting out using the method suggested in the first post of this thread.

I'm only running 2 of the 4 bulbs from my TEK lights. That is 108 watts of light, giving me a nice medium range of 1.44 wpg. I'm running my lights for 12 hours — 9am to 9pm — which I may have to change as I go. But with the low wpg, I'm hoping to do okay. As I continue with ferts, I'll start using my other 2 bulbs as "noon bursts" of sorts until I get the balance I want of enough light to enjoy some kind of front carpeting plant and red colored leaves, but still have at least 2 bulbs running long enough for me to truly enjoy the tank.

Most of the plants I have in the tank right now are slow growing, low light plants: java ferns, anubias and crypts. As I gradually add more lighting, I'll get a bunch of hornwort to help me through the conversion until I get some real stems in there.

Here's the fertilization schedule I'm planning on trying to get me started:

*Friday:*
Trim, clean up
50% water change

*Friday, Sunday and Tuesday* (all added dry straight into the tank):
3/4 tsp KN03 — Potassium Nitrate (to dose Nitrate)
3/16 tsp KH2P04 — Mono Potassium Phosphate (to dose Phosphorus)
1/4 tsp K2S04 — Potassium Sulfate (to dose Potassium without Nitrogen or Phosphorus)

*Saturday, Monday, Wednesday* (premixed with water):
3/16 tsp CSM+B — (to dose Trace elements)

*Thursday:*
nothing or maybe some trimming/clean up to prepare for Friday.

I may switch my days around as I go, but this is where I'll start.

At this time, I'm basically algae free. There's a little algae on the bottom of the front glass, could be diatoms. Most plants are doing well, but I have some anubias with yellow/melting leaves. Some vals need he tips trimmed from melting. Amazingly, my new crypts are not melting.

So today is DAY 1 of my first time using dry ferts! I hope this goes well!


----------



## neonmkr

Everything looks nice!
Great job!!


----------



## Reddog80p

Very Nice!


----------



## MikeS

Looks really good roud:


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Cant wait to see how things grow out. Looking good!


----------



## stargate_geek

Looking awesome!


----------



## Complexity

Thanks for the nice comments! I spent the entire weekend breaking my back by yanking out everything and trying to move things around to give it some sort of order that maybe, kind of looked like a scape.

Well, things were going okay at first.

But then I had to figure out what to do with this plant.

And this one, too.

And, oh yeah, those need to be tied to driftwood (gets out driftwood, fumbles to find suitable pieces, none found, get saw, starting cutting), tying to driftwood, but they won't stay where I want them, get anchors to weight them down.

Think I'm about to see the end when I remembered those plants over there in the bucket. They have to be planted or they'll die.

And, oh no, I totally forgot about those other plants! Where can I fit them in?

And, great, I completely forgot about that moss. Need to tie it down to something (rummages for driftwood, finds crazy piece, yeah, that'll work). Cleans out moss, gets wet tying it down, need a weight to hold it down.

Well, while I'm at it, I'd better get those floating plants planted. Now where can I put those?

And on and on and on.... :icon_eek: 

You get the idea. My back is killing me. I've trimmed up every plant to remove dead and dying leaves, only to find more coming up just a day later. Not good. But I think most plants will make it.

I _finally_ added my first ferts on Sunday! Now I have to figure out how to mix the trace ferts for tomorrow. So at least I have most of the plants actually planted (I still have some floaters in my 20L that I need to plant along with some crypt that's growing like crazy in that tank).

One thing I have learned for sure. I need a taller ladder. My 3 step ladder just isn't tall enough. It's not easy to reach all the way into that tank!

I'll try to grab a picture of the tank as it is now, but keep in mind that my goal right now is to try to keep the plants alive, and as I ran into problems trying to scape the tank, I kept having problems with adding plants from all kinds of sources that I've been using to hold the plants. And even with all I've put in, I suddenly remembered yet another group of plants in my Q/T tank. They're tall and fast growing so they need to be in the back, but where?

What a mess! :icon_lol:


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## lauraleellbp

Hey Vicki, have you seen these? http://www.rosenthalpottery.com/

I just ran across this site and immediately thought of you...


----------



## ingg

> One thing I have learned for sure. I need a taller ladder. My 3 step ladder just isn't tall enough. It's not easy to reach all the way into that tank!


Long tweezers are your friend. BigStick120 has been selling some nice 12" ones, both straight end and bent end. 

I'd lose my mind trying to reach the bottom of my tanks all the time. With the exception of pulling grown in crypts.... I don't. Tweezers do.


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## Complexity

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey Vicki, have you seen these? http://www.rosenthalpottery.com/
> 
> I just ran across this site and immediately thought of you...


Thanks, Laura Lee! I actually did see them a while ago, but they're still not making what I want as far as looking natural.

I've cut numerous clay pots with differently shaped holes, but when I tried to dye them, they didn't really take on much of the dye. So that's not going to work. I had hoped to dye them black or at least a dark color so the orange wouldn't show on the inside even after I've camouflaged the outside. So I'm still working on it.

Bad news though, regarding one of my Kribs. I found one of my pelvicachromis taeniatus "nigerian red" dead. I'm not sure if it's the male or female because they were the two that always hide the most. It appears she was attached. I say "she" because I think it was the female, and I suspect the male is the one that killed her. Those two never did pair off very well. Fortunately, the others are doing well.  



ingg said:


> Long tweezers are your friend.


I can't agree more! However, even with 12" tweezers, my back is still hurting from having to lean into the tank. My step ladder has 3 steps, probably about 3' tall in all. And that's still not enough for my 5'4" body height. I literally have to put my upper body inside the tank to reach the bottom in order to plant things, including when using tweezers. However, it is easier with the tweezers.

I am so very glad I didn't end up with the 90g tank I first had. I don't know if I could have managed the care for one that tall!


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## Complexity

Update:

I'm running only 2 of my 4 bulbs, but I'm already getting a little red on a couple of plants. I received some Blyxa japonica in a trade (MiSo sent me a LOT as extras), and I am completely in love with this plant! I can't wait until I get things mature enough so that I can offer some to others. I think a lot of people will love this plant.

My anubias is going south on me for reasons I cannot figure out. The leaves are just becoming skeletonized very rapidly. Other leaves that are absolutely perfect in appearance are detaching at the base. I don't know why. Some aren't doing this, but most are.

I'm also seeing the beginnings of BBA (black beard algae) which is really making me cringe. I did this to myself by getting plants that already had BBA (and was advertised as such so it was all very honest). I thought bleaching the plants would have stopped it, but now I'm seeing some in my mosses and a few beginning spots on my healthy anubias. I'm working to increase my CO2. I'm also considering spot treating with excel to stop it before it becomes a real problem.

I received my pH controller, but haven't had time to install it yet. I will try to do that today.

All fish look great except the one dead Krib as I mentioned above. I have seen a couple fish appear to be flashing, but I'm not sure because I've only seen it occasionally. They're showing no signs of illness, and the movement that I'm taking as flashing could be just nibbling on leaves (the torpedo barbs nibble a little).

I added another 10 cardinal tetras that had been in Q/T for over 3 weeks. Not a single death! So that gives me a shoal of 21. They are clearly very comfortable because they don't shoal, much to my chagrin. I want to add some more. They are beautiful under the moonlights.

Oh, I lied about sick fish. I just remembered that I had to put one guppy down and another guppy has just disappeared. I think it's the torpedo barbs. I've seen them chase the guppies at times. I think they're going after their tails. One young male guppy lost a good part of his tail, but it's regrowing and the guppy himself has recovered from the trauma. Another, older, guppy lost its tail and was much too traumatized so I put him down. I'm missing another 1-2 guppies. The tank is so full of plants, they may have died and been eaten without me seeing them.

Riccia is attached to small pieces of slate and is growing wonderfully.

The tank, in general, looks like a mess. And I have a bunch of hornwort coming in this week to help keep the algae at bay, but that will really make things look like a mess. I've given up on trying to have any kind of actual aquascape at this point, and am focusing on getting the plants healthy. I have quite a few plants that came in as extras from trades that I need to plant. They're floating in my 20L, growing great roots! So if I can find a piece of substrate that's not filled with plants, I'll try to add those in so I can have more stems growing in while the hornwort helps me to work on getting the lights, ferts and CO2 balanced.

I have a few pictures I'll try to post later, if I don't run out of time.


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## Complexity

Today's update:

I now have the pH controller running to keep my CO2 levels steady, day and night. I needed a bit of help installing it because the instructions were vague and my old eyes could not see the little slot for the screw inside the calibration hole on the front.

I then went through a night of concern, fearing having too much CO2 for the fish while the lights were turned off, but with the help of gmccreedy, I got through the night with everything doing well.

Just for my journal records, here's the thread where I received help in installing the pH controller: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/69655-i-need-some-help-installing-my.html

Things are looking reasonably good with the anubias having the hardest time. I'm hoping the pH controller can help keep the CO2 levels stable so I can nip the BBA in the bud before it becomes a big problem. I'm starting to try to spot treat the BBA with Excel.

I'll have to get some pictures posted soon. Been busy with my younger daughter in driver's ed. So I've been letting her drive me in circles in empty parking lots and low traffic streets while I clinch my teeth! :icon_lol: So my picture taking isn't getting as much action as I'd like. But, hopefully soon, I'll have something to post.


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## MikeS

Sweet! I have a ph controller too, and so far I have not set it up. I want to make sure I do it and right as well.


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## Complexity

If yours is the same controller as mine, the thread I linked to should get you going. You can save face from my mess-ups!


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## MikeS

Not the same, but similar. The thread will help though


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## Complexity

*Oh, please no! ICH!*

Oh, no, please don't let it be.

*ICH!*

I knew it was going to happen. I've been adding too many things (plants) from too many sources with too many changes, stressing out all of the fish too much of the time. And sure enough, I just saw the first signs of ich in my tank.

One of my larger cardinal tetras has a large, unmistakable white spot near his tail. Thankfully, I surprised even myself by being able to net him quickly. He's now in one of my 5g tanks with the anubias suffering from BBA. I just put the Rid Ich + in the tank.

But this really throws a curve ball in things. I was just about to do a 3 day blackout on the tank. But 3 days is more than sufficient time for ich to spread throughout. So I have to be able to see the fish very closely as often as possible to look for any other signs of ich.

So I think I'll switch to the spot treatment of H202 for the BBA with water changes afterwards. The water changes will be good for a possible ich breakout because it will (1) remove some ich in the water and (2) will ensure fresh, clean water for the fish, giving them the best possible water conditions I can give them.

I'm so frustrated right now. BBA and ich at the same time.


----------



## DaveS

Have you been putting plants in the tank without QT'ing them? Sometimes people forget that ich can be transported on plants as well if they come from tanks with fish.

Dave


----------



## Complexity

Yes and no. I Q/T'd the plants I added about a week ago. They went through a 3+ week of Q/T along with some new cardinals (not the larger one that has the spot).

I just added hornwort yesterday, but that's too fast for ich to make a large spot. I got the hornwort from Bonnie's Plants on eBay, and she claims to disinfect the plants before shipping them. I also did a very thorough rinsing job on the plants (not that it would kill ich, of course).

I'm not sure how the ich got introduced, but clearly, it was. I may have introduced it from a SNS plant. I'll have to double check the dates, but I think I may have added some about week or so ago. That would be enough time for the ich to find a host, attach itself, and to create the visible white spot.

And then with the anubias going sour on me, I'm sure it affected the water quality. That's why I did such a good job of vacuuming the tank yesterday and cleaned my Rena canister on the same day (I usually don't do both at one time). I got a lot of dead/dying debris from the melting anubias.

Combining all that with the fact that I have been constantly changing things in the tank (adding anubias, removing anubias, adding hornwort, moving rocks around, adding other plants, constantly replanting plants that float back up), I've been worried about how much this has stressed out the fish. It seems that I was right to be concerned. If I managed to get some ich in the tank, stressed fish will succumb to it.

For now, whenever I'm gone, the lights will be turned off. When I'm there, I'll turn the lights on to do a very thorough inspection of all the fish. I'll also start performing daily 50% water changes with good vacuuming. I just hope I caught this in time to prevent a full ich assault.


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## @[email protected]

i would add a small (too small to kill plants) amount of salt in your tank, just to make life a little more difficult for the ich. i would also raise the temp, so you can see if there is more (which there almost definately is). in the QT/hospital tank, i would add salt and raise the temps in addition to the medication.

for bba, i successfully got rid of it with excel OD and spot dosing. it still shows up from time to time in my moss, but its gone in a day or two as i keep SAE (after the ich is dead, you should add some). though its hard to kill, it (IME) doesnt really spread fast enough to smother most plants, it just looks very unsightly. 
bleaching can kill it if used for 2 minutes or more.


----------



## Complexity

I'm a little scared of adding salt at this point. I don't know what fish or plants can benefit or be harmed by it, and I don't know how well my amanos can handle salt. I'll have to do a lot more research before I jump to adding salt.

I'm not real sure at the moment that I want to raise the temps. I'd rather have ich in the substrate than free swimming right now. That gives the uv sterilizer more time to kill out what it can (before it becomes free-swimming), and buys me more time to do more vacuuming, water changes, and to stop stressing the fish.

I'll have to go back and double check, but exactly which stage of the ich life cycle is sped up with the heat? If it's the stage after it's dropped off the fish and before it becomes free swimming, then I want to keep it there. I'd only raise the temperature to speed up the life cycle if I was using meds or taking other action to kill it.

But there is a risk of causing a lot of ich to suddenly become free swimming when you're not using medicines. The more free swimming ich there is, the more that can attack the fish. Since I've only seen one spot so far, I'd like to keep the away from becoming free swimming as much as possible to allow other means to help remove the ich.

My HOPE is that I got just a few parasites introduced into the tank, one attached itself to the cardinal tetra, I removed that fish before that ich could drop and multiply, leaning very little ich in the tank.

I realize this is backwards to almost any advice given, including my own, but I'm at the very beginning stages and not a full breakout. Obviously, if I see a full breakout, then I will change course immediately.


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## @[email protected]

well, if you put really little (like 1/4 or less of the reccomended dose) then your plants will be hurt extremely little, and if its only for a little (like a few weeks), it wont even become visible. your fish will barely feel the affects. the ich will also barely be affected, but it will be hurt more then the fish, giving the fish an edge. 

im no expert, but im 99.9999% certain amanos wont mind a little salt. their shrimplets live in a marine environment. but again, i never tried it, consult a shrimp expert.

as far as i understand, all of them. but i never really reviewed what i know, because only my very first fish had ich.

you will still get full-blown ich in that tank with the sole tetra, and you cannot remove the tetra after the ich drops until after you beat the breakout (and wait an additional 2-3 weeks or so, just in case).


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## lauraleellbp

How very ironic!

You know Les' solution- "Get 2 Eheims and..." :hihi: 

Here's the article I keep bookmarked on Ich, runs down salt and several other treatment methods: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

Setting up a new tank is mostly fun... except for when it comes to this part.  

GL Vicki!


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## @[email protected]

i never had that problem, except with my first fish years ago: 3 feeder gold fish (of course dead in the morning).


----------



## Complexity

I feel sick.

I examined the fish really closely, and while I don't see anything major, I do see some questionable spots, especially on my prized Pelvicachromis. And then, while I was trying so hard to determine if I was actually seeing a spot, my favorite female Pelvicachromis started flashing. Well, that's it. The tank is infected.

If I use meds in the tank itself, the seams will be permanently turned blue. So that's not an option.

So the only option I can think of is to use all the tanks I have available to create numerous hospital talks for ALL of the fish, leaving the main tank fishless which will, by the shear lack of a host, eradicate the ich by default.

It's not going to be fun attempting to catch all of those fish. I guess I'll have to fill up the 29g tank that's sitting on the floor, waiting for me to change it out with the 20L. The 29 will be my life-saver as an H/T for my 10 torpedo barbs. Thank goodness I never tossed my old silk and plastic plants. I'll need to use them now.

Of all the tanks I can manage to use, I have three 5g, one 10g, one 29g, and a last resort of the 2.5g. So that's 5 good H/T tanks with 1 tiny one.

I'll have to put the torpedo barbs into the 29g with one set of kribs. I'll crowd my guppies into a 5g. If I lose any of them, then whatever. I can put another set of kribs in my 10g with my cardinal tetras. My pleco can join the barbs in the 29g. The BGR can go in another 5g with the one mateless krib. I think that will leave me a 5g for the shrimp (I'll have to trap them).

Then I can do two things at once. I can treat my sick fish in all of these H/Ts which them empties my 75g of all fish and inverts. Then I can fight the BBA with overdosing Excel in the entire tank.

Thank goodness I have so many extra tanks. I never dreamed I'd need this many H/Ts all at once, but when you think about it, it makes sense that I'd need to have enough H/T space to treat all the fish for an ich outbreak just like this.

Laura Lee, you know Les caused this. He jinxed my tank. 

Another thought is that I might just go to the store and grab a bunch of 10g tanks. I can just put them on the floor.

I cannot believe this is happening. But at the same time, I was afraid this would happen. I bet I got the ich from a plant. I always did great with Q/Ting my fish, but not the plants. Damn. Another lesson learned the hard way.


----------



## lauraleellbp

I'd try salt in the main tank, personally Vicki- moving all those fish is going to be a ton of stress on you and the fish... 

A 2-week salt treatment at around 1 tsp/gallon shouldn't hurt your plants that much, though. You could always just move any of the plants that you're worried about into a QT tank and treat just that plant, or just let them fallow. IMO moving a few plants (especialy since you haven't planted most of them yet anyways right?) would be a whole lot easier than trying to get all the fish.

I *absolutely *think we should blame Les! :thumbsup:


----------



## Complexity

Organizing which fish go into which H/T:

(BR) 10g — aquaclear filter — 10g standard light — glass lid:
Caridina multidentata/japonica (Amano Shrimp) about 40
Anubias

(BR) 5g — built in eclipse filter — built in light — built in lid:
Mikrogeophagus ramirezi (Blue German Ram)
Poecilia reticulata (Guppies) males, 4 adult, 6 juveniles

(BR) 5g — built in eclipse filter — built in light — built in lid:
Apistogramma cacatuoides (Apisto Cockatoo) male only

(KIT) 5g — built in eclipse filter — built in light — built in lid:
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Nigerian Red' male only

(DR) 10g — aquaclear filter — 10g standard light — standard plastic lid:
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke' pair
Paracheirodon axelrodi (Cardinal Tetras) 21

(DR) 29g — emperor 280 filter — 29g standard light — standard plastic lid:
Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Moliwe' pair
Puntius denisonii (Torpedo Barbs) 10
Panaque sp. (L204 Flash Pleco)

NEW "H/T" Python — to prevent cross contamination with my healthy fish in my 20L.

Okay, so it seems I only have to buy one basic 10g setup. Cheap enough. And I'll get another python just to make my life easier since I will need to work very hard on handling ammonia issues since nothing will be cycled.

Anyone see anything wrong with this combination?

Damn. This will NOT be fun. And let's not forget I have all those anubias plants to deal with. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them yet.


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## Complexity

Laura Lee, I've tried the salt treatment on other fish in the past. It does not work effectively. I have hundreds of dollars invested in the fish. While moving them will be stressful, if I can knock out the ich quickly, they'll be less stressed.

I'm also thinking this just might be the precursor to moving my 75g tank. I have to move it some time in the next 2-3 months, maybe this is the time to just do it. Having the fish in their own H/T tanks will actually make moving them easier as I can take my time, only moving certain fish at a time. In the meantime, they'll have their own H/Ts while the 75g is getting set up.

Gotta go. Guess I'll be spending some time shopping today, preparing a bunch of H/Ts, and then moving and medicating fish. Wish me luck.


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## @[email protected]

i suggest adding a bit of salt in the tanks, it doesnt do much, but it will help. 

just a suggestion: move most of your biomedia from the current filter into the new tanks. make sure to keep the biomedia well aeriated (or put it in the new filters), so you dont let anaerobic bacteria colonize it. that will keep your fish from being stressed by ammonia and nitrites. 
you can tie your bioballs (or whatever your filter has) in a mesh bag with an airstone inside. that will keep it well oxygenated, so the bacteria can work and bad ones cant survive.

i believe ich can live 3 weeks or more without a host, so you will be looking at a month before the fish can go back safely. 

can shrimp get ich? i dont see how, as they have an exo-skeleton, but i dont know much about shrimp.


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## Complexity

Got the extra 10g tank and hood/light. It's at the apartment while I'm at my house right now. I also bought some very large nets that should help me catch the fish more easily which, in turn, causes them less stress.

I don't know anything about anaerobic bacteria so I'll need to read up on that. I bought some ammonia lock to help with the lack of cycling problem. Your suggestion for seeding the tanks with some of the media is a good one, but it also means that media will remain in contact with the ich so I'll think about that. The dead/dying/melting plants should produce enough ammonia for the 75g to keep it going. I think. Thing is, I just cleaned both filters this week.

Ich can't last more than 3-4 days without a host, even at lower temps. So that's self limiting.

Salt in the HT tanks sounds good. I'll double check each fish for its tolerance to salt before adding it, but I think they should all be able to tolerate the salt with the lone possible exception being my pleco. I know he can take some salt because he's had it before, but I don't want to overdo it.

I may change positions of which fish go in which tank to put my favorite kribs in a tank without the pleco so I can give them the full salt treatment without worrying. I'd move the pleco, but his bioload is so large, I think he needs to be in the 29g tank to help keep the bioload somewhat diluted.

Okay, I think I've thought of just about everything. I have extra heaters to raise the temps in all tanks so that's not a problem. So as soon as I can get back to the apartment, it'll be time to get all the HT tanks set up and move the fish so I can begin treating them.

Never a dull moment!


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## lauraleellbp

Vicki- only the ich that are in the free-swimming phase will die in that time frame w/out a host. Did you read that article I linked? Pretty good description of their life cycle. Marko is correct about the time frame you'll need to leave the tank fallow.


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## @[email protected]

there are only a few things you need to know unless you are doing a walstad tank:
-they dont need O2 to survive, and O2 is lethal to many (but not all)
-they produce toxins harmful to fish.
-anaerobic respiration wastes more energy then aerobic respiration, so if your tank is well oxygenated (including gravel and bioball pores which may need some current) aerobic bacteria have the advantage and outcompete the anaerobes that can survive O2 contact.

basically, dont use gravel without plants or a UGF. and if you put biomedia, wrap an airstone in it, or put it in a high flow area to keep the O2 circulating in the little pores. 

yeah, you will need new biomedia, but its easy to get and plants dont mind cycling. fish however do. besides you will need to re-introduce fish slowly anyway, and you will have ample time to cycle the tank again.


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## Complexity

Laura Lee, I read the article. This is the part I took note of:

_"*Ich has three life-stages.* We can begin with the feeding stage that has settled under your fishes' outer skin: the trophont (or trophozoite). The trophont is the only feeding stage (its name contains the same Greek troph="feeding" element familiar in "heterotroph" or "trophic level"), yet it has no mouth. Instead it secretes histolytes to break down neighboring host cells, in order to absorb their contents. The histolytes cause the host fishes' epithelium to thicken, so that the host's own immune reaction provides a safe haven for this "adult" or "mature" stage, where it's protected from medication. Constantly rotating inside its pustule, the trophont swells to 50 times its original size, large enough to appear to the naked eye, grayish-white, round to oval, as big as a grain of salt. In a few days or much longer, depending on temperature, it is ripe. It sheds its cilia, grows a thickened gelatinous outer shell, lets itself be shed into the fishes' mucus, and drops away as a "tomont." The trophont does not need to become completely mature. A lab study by T.A. Nicholl and M.S. Ewing at Oklahoma State found that most of the embedded trophonts left the host within four hours of death: it's worth noting that the corpse of an Ich-infested host is a major source of infection."

"The released tomonts swim for 2 to 6 hours before settling on a substrate. (Nicholl and Ewing found that a light substrate was preferred to a dark one.) Some biologists count this brief interval as a fourth life stage (in which it is susceptible to medication, by the way, according to Dr. Peter Burgess, the resident "fish doctor" at Practical Fishkeeping magazine). Quickly it attaches to a substrate and encysts, as the reproducing stage. This life-stage doesn't eat. Its metabolic clock is now ticking; it is spending its stored energy to divide and divide again within the short-lived cyst. The tomont's time-span remains temperature-dependent: at common aquarium temperatures it's a matter of hours to days. (In a chilly koi pond in early spring, the cyst may persist longer.) Ultimately hundreds of mobile tomites burst from the cyst, even as many as 2000. They quick sprout cilia and start actively swimming about in search of a host. The fully developed "swarmers" are now called theronts (Greek ther- denotes a critter). The tomites'/theronts' metabolism is also temperature-dependent, but they must find a host within a very few days or perish: at 68oF none survived after 55 hours, according to Schaperclaus."​_Source of quote: http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/docs/health/ich.shtml

First, keep in mind that I will be raising the temperature in the 75g to around 86°F. So all of the shorter times given should apply.

Okay, so by removing all of the fish, there will be no developing trophonts to drop into the substrate. So with a fish-less tank, we start at the tomont stage (where they are in the substrate). As per the article (and other sources I've read before), this stage only lasts a few HOURS (at high temps). Then they become free-swimming and must find a host within 55 hours (at low temperature) which is less than 3 days.

This is why you are directed to continue the medication for 3 days after seeing the last ich spot on a fish. That 3 days is how long it takes for the ich to go from the "drop off" moment to the "died due to no host found" stage.

So a tank without fish will be free of any living ich in just 3 days. That is much less time than most fish are treated in a H/T.

By removing ALL of my fish, I will be getting rid of all of the ich in the 75g so by the time the fish having finished their treatment, the tank will be ready for them.


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## Complexity

Marko, you have me confused. I intend to keep the plants in the 75g with the filters running. It will be no different than doing a fish-less cycling (given that the tank is already cycled and the plants are producing ammonia through die off).

I'm also going to be fighting the BBA in the tank by hitting it hard with Excel. That's why I'm taking the extra step of taking out the amano shrimp. Since I'm removing all of the other fish, I might as well remove the shrimp and then bomb the tank with Excel to get rid of the BBA.


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## mott

Did you try the H202 method? It cost a lot less than Excel.
If I od with Excel I get some shrimp die off and plants sometimes die. too much Excel will do that so be careful.


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## Complexity

Mott, the tank will be empty of all fish and inverts. Just plants.

I'm not sure which method I'm going to use, H2O2 or Excel. The decision will probably be made by default because I can't find Excel locally and I don't have enough for a full treatment.

Plus, the H2O2 method would be a bonus in killing off the ich.


I'm very tired. Still working on the tanks. It looks like I won't be able to start moving the fish over until tomorrow. I want to have all the tanks ready to go so when I start netting the fish, I can do it quickly. While I realize the fish are in ich contaminated water which means they may get more attached tonight, I have to balance that with the amount of stress I put on them. I think netting them all quickly and allowing them to go through their exploring will be better done after a good night's sleep for them.

Lights out in 10 minutes. I might as well enjoy them in the 75g for the last few minutes I can.


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## lauraleellbp

No, you need to NOT count on moving all the ich out of the tank when you remove the fish. If your ich has already moved between fish then you need to consider your entire tank infested; you've had ich going through their entire life cycle and it's highly likely that your substrate is full of the cysts by now (due to their incredibly prolific reproductive rate). 

All of those time frames are estimates and none are set in stone. There are many different strains of ich, and IMO you need to err on the side of extreme caution. Even raising the temps is not 100% certain that every single cyst will "hatch" that much more quickly... and it only takes one...

I know you've got a lot invested in these fish ($ and emotionally) and I'd really hate to see you introduce them back into the main tank too soon, only to have to start all over again.


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## Complexity

Laura Lee, I understand that the 75g tank is infected. This is not just a fish illness. It is an entire tank illness.

I expect the fish will be in their H/T for 10+ days. That is more than enough time for the ich that's in the tank (not yet free swimming) to become free swimming, be unable to find a host, and die.

Let's look at this another way. Let's pretend I didn't move the fish and left them in the 75g and medicated them right there. Now, by following the normally prescribed directions (including those in that article), I would continue to medicate the fish until 3 days after the last ich fell off of a fish. Now, remember, that last ich that fell off the fish is now in the gravel. The medicine cannot kill it. So why is it okay to stop the meds 3 days after that? Why not continue for a month?

The reason is because during those 3 days, the ich will become free swimming. And the medicine will kill them out before they can attach themselves to a fish.

Alright, so let's say I did 7 days of medicine, I saw the last ich fall off, continued to medicate for 3 more days, and now the fish and tank is considered "healed" (free of living ich) in 10 days.

What's the biggest difference between that scenario and not using meds in a fishless tank. There are two differences. (1) the tank will have ich in the gravel (and on the plants, etc.) and (2) the tank will have living ich that's free swimming with no meds to kill it out.

Again, reading that article, most ich in the gravel will become free swimming in a matter of HOURS, possibly days. So let's pretend it took a whole WEEK for them to become free swimming (if the article is talking hours at high temps, which I will use, then a week is an extreme amount of time). Now, the last ich in the gravel is free swimming in 7 days. There is NO MORE ich being dropped into the gravel because there are no fish from which the ich can drop. So 7 days have passed and all the ich is free swimming. They look for a host. According to the article, they have to find a host in 55 HOURS (2 days, 7 hours) or they'll die. So 3 days is 72 hours. That's far beyond the 55 hours in the article. Therefore, giving 7 days for the ich to become free swimming and 3 days for the free swimming ich to die due to the lack of a hose, all ich is dead in 10 days. The tank is ready for the fish again.

I completely understand about being careful. I will probably extend those times, as I usually medicate for 5 days after the last visible ich (because you can't see what's in their gills so I like to be doubly sure). So I'm probably looking at 2 weeks. By that time, the ich in the 75g will definitely be dead. It will be safe to put the fish back in.

If anything, the biggest thing I need to worry about with the 75g is the cycling. In those 2 weeks, there won't be the same ammonia load given so I might end up losing some of my good bacteria. All I can do is keep a very good eye on things when the fish are put back. Having a lot of plants will help, such as the 12 bunches of hornwort I just got. I can also do water changes to help ease the tank through its mini-cycle.

I very much hate ich. I understand what it is. I have dealt with it before. And I know that if the 75g remains without fish for 10+ days, all of the ich will be dead. Ich simply cannot survive that long without a host.


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## lauraleellbp

FWIW I medicate for at least a week after the last visible sign, personally- always.

Also you can continue to add fish food to the 75gal even in the absence of fish as an ammonia source to keep the cycle going.


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## Guest

Just figured I would let you know Ich (cysts) can live for 60 Days or more without a fish host.

Here is a nice article from Doc Johnson about Ich.


http://www.koivet.com/index.php?view=article&catid=27%3Aparasites&id=53%3Aichthyophthirius-multifilis&option=com_content&Itemid=55


Freshwater Ich - Ichthyophthirius multifilis - is a killer of very small fish, and can cause "*******" disease in the winter regardless of fish size.

Look closely at gill tissue under the microscope to be sure to exclude this pathogen, because it does not usually cause the typical "white spot" syndrome as in other fish. Therefore, it's often an overlooked diagnosis. Clears easily with salt (0.3%) but sometimes takes four to five days because the epidermal phase (explained in the book) is safe from treatment


If I had to guess, I would guess that every singe hobbyist in the whole world WILL encounter Ich at some time. Usually the meeting occurs early on, as a beginner, before water quality parameters such as Ammonia, Nitrites and 'The Cycle' become more familiar, and 'Quarantine' is just a high ideal observed by a few pathetic perfectionists.

What is 'Ich'?

Freshwater Ich (Ichthyophthirius multifilis) is a ciliated protozoan that encysts under the epidermis of the fish; and, in its encysted condition, causes small white spots all over the fishes body and fins. In some cases, Ich spots may be present, but will not be visible. You may still see them under the scope, or you may see them exclusively on the gills. This is how infected fish may get into a tank without being detected, even if quarantined for a period of time. Asymptomatic carriers can sustain a population of Ich in a tank or pond for an indefinite period. Sometimes an owner will purchase a new fish who, being immunologically naive to Ich, will contract the condition immediately upon introduction to an 'endemic' (already infected but asymptomatic) group of fish. If a fish contracts Ich, and survives without treatment, they have shown strong immunity to re-infection, indicating that the potential for a vaccine exists, and is being worked on at University of Georgia and other institutions. It would have astonishing impac on the Catfish industry if it could be achieved.

Ich rapidly kills smaller tropicals and goldfish, while often sparing the larger varieties (fish such as Oscars and Koi). Damage to the gills is the primary way it kills, but damage to the skin with secondary bacterial infection may also figure prominently.
Its life cycle is roughly 2-5 days, but can be longer (5+ weeks!) if the water is cool, much shorter if the water is warmer. There is the old rumor that warm water eradicates it. This is substantially true when temperatures exceed 85 degrees, however; there are strains coming out of Florida and detailed by researchers at University of Florida that can survive and thrive up to NINETY degrees or more! Recall that many of our bread and butter species of tropicals come from Florida, and so may harbor this heat tolerant strain.

The parasite has a phase that encysts in the epidermis of the fish as previously stated (called a theront). It matures under the skin and finally drops off, falling to the bottom (becoming a trophont) to divide into numerous (hundreds) of tiny swarmers (tomites) that actively seek out a host on which to encyst and renew the cycle of infection. Because an important phase of its life cycle occurs on the bottom of the aquarium, it is for this reason that you can help limit infections with water changes made by siphoning the gravel, removing those dividing Ich packets.

Interestingly, some research at Oklahoma has revealed a strain of Ich that does not have to leave the fish and whose Ich packet (trophozoite) remains under the epidermis (safe from medications) and the tomites swarm out under the epidermis. The lesions look much like Carp Pox lesions, being large, flattened, and waxy looking. This parasite is harder to clear because it is the free swimming tomite that we can kill with medicaments.

Prevention is attended at the wholesale level by the maintenance of a 0.3% salt solution which crenates (kills) the emerging tomites. We do not recommend that you as a hobbyist maintain this salt level all the time because live plants can be killed by this, and all species of fish are NOT universally tolerant of this. Still, many have found that salt is a very effective annihilator of Ich infections if normal precautions are observed.

There are numerous reasons to reach for salt, first, for Ich.

1) It does not harm the majority of fish species.
2) It does not push sick fish 'over the edge.'
3) It eliminates, QUICKLY, most of the serious pathogens of tropicals.
4) It does not get bound out of the system by organics or sunlight.
5) It does not pose a health risk to humans contacting it.
6) It is CHEAP, CHEAP, CHEAP.
7) It WON'T harm your filter if administered in divided doses.

To recap my points, here's the nuts and bolts of Salting Ich..

1. Remove valued live plants.
2. Raise temperature to 80 degrees, tops.
3. Increase aeration!
4. Add one teaspoon of salt per gallon.
5. Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per gallon.
6. Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per gallon.
7. Within 48-60 hours of the second salt dose at 80 degrees, the Ich will be gone.
8. Leave salt in the water for another 3-5 days unless you're worried about your live plants.
9. Remove salt via partial waterchanges. (30-40% at a time if desired).


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## Complexity

I just might add the fish food. That's not a bad idea.

I truly appreciate your concern. I know you are wanting the very best for me and for my tanks and fish. And I understand where you're coming from. I've heard of people fighting ich over and over again because they don't completely kill it out, and then they end up with a medication resistant strain.

I think we're a lot alike in that we both take a lot of precautions. How many people do you know that will set up *6* H/Ts to care for their fish? But I'm not going to take chances. I want every fish in that tank to be medicated so there is no chance they could be harboring ich in their gills that can reinfect the entire tank.

I've done really well with keeping my tanks free of ich, but I pushed things too fast with this one. I should have Q/T'd the plants. Instead, I washed them and put them right in. Never again.

BTW, as a side note: I could not find a 50ft Python so I went with the Aqueon brand. I like it more than the Python brand! This will be my regular "python" while my old one will be my "H/T python".


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## Guest

Wouldn't it be so much easier to remove the plants and treat the entire tank? This way you know its gone from the fish and the tank?


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## Complexity

And where would I put the plants? And then how long do I keep the plants out before they are considered "ich free"?

Again, from your article, DementedMindz, it clearly defines the time period for the ich life cycle:

_"Its life cycle is roughly 2-5 days, but can be longer (5+ weeks!) if the water is cool, much shorter if the water is warmer. "_​I am not going to leave the water cool. I will raise the temperature. That will speed up the life cycle which is how the ich will die (in the tank without fish).

All the other talk in that article is regarding the ich on the fish itself (skin and/or gills). It is not talking about what happens to ich when it cannot find a host.

ALL fish are being medicated. ALL. Every single one of them. Regardless of whether they're showing spots or not. Each and every fish will be medicated in their respective H/Ts.

The inverts are being moved to their own tank for their protection. Any ich on them will die off the same as it will in the main tank.

All the ich in the 75g tank will die off on its own when it cannot find a host. There will be no fish in the tank to hide ich in its gills. No fish to be a carrier. No fish to feed high temp resistant ich. NO FISH.

There are many variations on the details of ich, but one remains reasonably consistent. Ich requires a host to survive. Without a host, it dies. And when the temperatures are raised, the life cycle will complete itself in 2-5 days (with warm water).

Please, anyone, show me where either of these articles say that ich can survive 30-60 days (or even 10!) without a host. Please quote the precise sentence(s) that say this.

Oh, and Demented, I don't want to use Malachite Green in my 75g tank because it will permanently stain the silicone blue. It would be much easier if I could treat the fish in the tank.


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## Complexity

Also, to be clear, I will use salt in the H/Ts as long as the species of fish in the tank can tolerate it.


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## Guest

I would put the plants in a H/T if I was to treat my personal tank. Ich (cysts) can live for 60 Days easy without a host before they hatch and (hundreds) of tiny swarmers once again infect the tank if the host is back in the tank.

I treat alot of my pond plants and aquarium plants with Potassium Permanganate since I would lose alot of money if my pond was ever to get infected from buying plants. I know some are going to say it will kill plants but so far I have had great success with it.

I have talked to Bonnie numerous times from Bonniesplants who very knowledgeable in plants and fish. 

Here is what she does everytime on every plant she has to ship and has got me to do since we have spoke.

You may want to due this in a bucket then move them to a H/T after treatment.

Dissolve 1 tablespoons of Potassium Permanganate (PP) for every 4 gallons of water. Make sure the PP is thoroughly dissolved. add a pump and air stone to the container to keep the PP solution circulating around the plants. Treat for 3 hours and then rinse with a garden hose to remove residue.

Knock on wood I have not lost a plant and have had a pretty healthy fish tank.


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## Complexity

DementedMindz said:


> Ich (cysts) can live for 60 Days easy without a host before they hatch and (hundreds) of tiny swarmers once again infect the tank *if the host is back in the tank*.


Right. Some ich is able to live as a cyst *on the fish* for longer periods of time than the typical ich we normally think of. From the articles I read, that type of ich causes either tiny cysts or cysts in the gills so they cannot be seen. Another article said there is a type of ich that creates flat, waxy cysts *on the fish* which do not drop to the substrate, but releases its next generation directly from the cyst *on the fish*. In those cases, *a fish* can be a carrier, constantly reinfecting the tank with ich.

But notice that in all of those more extreme forms of ich, the ich survives those longer time periods *on the fish*, not in the tank. In all cases that I have been presented with so far have said that once the ich either falls off the fish or is free swimming, it has to find a host (fish) in 3 days or it dies.

So the risk is not letting the tank be untreated. The risk is that a fish will go through the entire ich treatment, appear to be cured, put back into the tank, and reinfect the tank all over again.

The risk follows the fish, not the tank. The ich in the tank is self-limiting by their need to find a host. No host, the ich dies. Period.

I truly appreciate the concern, and if someone can show me any source that indicates ich can live for more than 3 days without a host, please show me. All of the articles that have been offered so far only repeat what I am saying. The ich must find a host in 3 days or it's dead. Treating the tank is not warranted.


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## Guest

Complexity said:


> Right. Some ich is able to live as a cyst *on the fish* for longer periods of time than the typical ich we normally think of. From the articles I read, that type of ich causes either tiny cysts or cysts in the gills so they cannot be seen. Another article said there is a type of ich that creates flat, waxy cysts *on the fish* which do not drop to the substrate, but releases its next generation directly from the cyst *on the fish*. In those cases, *a fish* can be a carrier, constantly reinfecting the tank with ich.
> 
> But notice that in all of those more extreme forms of ich, the ich survives those longer time periods *on the fish*, not in the tank. In all cases that I have been presented with so far have said that once the ich either falls off the fish or is free swimming, it has to find a host (fish) in 3 days or it dies.
> 
> So the risk is not letting the tank be untreated. The risk is that a fish will go through the entire ich treatment, appear to be cured, put back into the tank, and reinfect the tank all over again.
> 
> The risk follows the fish, not the tank. The ich in the tank is self-limiting by their need to find a host. No host, the ich dies. Period.
> 
> I truly appreciate the concern, and if someone can show me any source that indicates ich can live for more than 3 days without a host, please show me. All of the articles that have been offered so far only repeat what I am saying. The ich must find a host in 3 days or it's dead. Treating the tank is not warranted.


See there is different stages in ich's life cycle. While in the cyst (*Reproductive Stage*) it does not need a host and can stay in your tank or gravel. When it is in the *Parasitic Stage* then it needs a host. Ich can lie dormant for long periods in established aquariums.

No matter what both the tank and the fish have to be treated. I just think it would be easier to move the plants treat them and put them in a small H/T until you kill the ich. Its your choice in the end how you go about doing it but good luck with it.


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## lauraleellbp

I know I'm beating a dead horse a bit, but IME with ich (and unfortunately, I've got rather a lot) letting a tank lie fallow only works if you let it lie fallow for a LONG time.

I know that there's a lot of debate about whether and how long cysts can lie "dormant" but IME 2 weeks is barely even touching the "safety zone"- if they were my fish I'd go a month.


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## Guest

Correct it will only work if you let it stay without a host for a long time but then again you will have to recycle you tank over again.

This is how I would treat my tank.

I would remove the plants put them in a H/T or treat them in a bucket.

Raise the temps to around 80 to increase the reproductive stage. Once you raise the temps it makes there life cycle work faster.

Treat the tank with a small dose of medicine at first to make sure the fish dont react to the meds you will use. If fish dont show no signs of stress then do full doses or what ever the label on the product calls for and how long it calls for.

Its your choice in how you treat your tank. I am not trying to argue or nothing just trying to give advice that was pasted to me before.


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## Complexity

Let's try to get more specific so we know precisely what we are talking about. Ich has 3 (some people claim 4) stages in its life cycle. Which stage are you two claiming is able to remain dormant or otherwise survive for 30-60 days unless medication is used?

*Ich Life Cycle*

Some stages are given different names, depending on the author. Therefore, I have listed both names as they apply to their respective stage.

1. trophozoite — the stage in which the ich is attached to the fish.
2. tomont/trophont — the encased cyst that falls from the fish's body, landing on the substrate (or other object) and is in the process of multiplying.
3. tomite/theront — the free swimming cyst.​
In order for the assertion that ich can survive 30-60 days in 85°F water when not medicated, but can be killed if medicated, requires that the stage in question is #3 and further requires that the stage 3 ich can live 30-60 days (dormant or otherwise) without a host.

This is absolutely not true. It is very important that either you guys show me something to verify the claim or that you guys understand that you are believing an untrue myth. Laura Lee, even the article you linked to talks about this myth. Either way, one (or more) of us will be educated. I think we all prefer to know the truth, especially with something this important.

You have shown me a source verifying that ich can survive on a fish in stage 1 for 30 days or longer. But that's on the fish, not in a fishless tank. So that does not apply to the argument that the fishless tank must be medicated.

I have found no source to substantiate the claim that ich, while in stage 2 can survive dormant for 30+ days in an aquarium. Please show me a source that offers this information.

Further, it is my understanding that ich in stages 1 and 2 cannot be killed by medications. Therefore, even if ich in stages 1 or 2 could lie dormant in the tank for 30-60 days, medicating the tank would not kill that ich and, therefore, be useless and needless.

It is my understanding that the only stage that can be killed by medications is stage 3, and no source has substantiated the claim that ich in stage 3 can remain alive for more than 3 days without a host.

So you guys need to show me one of two things. Either ich can be killed in stage 1 or 2 -OR- ich in stage 3 is capable of surviving without a host for 30-60 days. I believe this is not true, and would either like to learn from you or bust the myth so you can learn. Either way, we all come out ahead.


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## Complexity

DementedMindz said:


> I am not trying to argue or nothing just trying to give advice that was pasted to me before.


I completely understand. I don't consider this an argument. :smile:

We are trying to learn the truth regarding ich so we can all better deal with it; plus, the more we know, the better advice we can give others. Passing on bad information is how myths are perpetuated. This is not only not good for any of us, but not good for anyone else we try to help.

I am wiling to be wrong. I just don't think I am. None of what you two are saying follows any understanding of the ich life cycle that I know of.

I honestly think you both have received bad advice, and I'm hoping to help you both see this. But if I am the one who's wrong, that's also fine. Then I need for you guys to show me so I can see it.


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## lauraleellbp

My source remains unpublished- it's 25 years' experience dealing with these things. I'm also in Florida, so perhaps my tanks are exposed to strains of ich that might not be as prevalent everywhere else (I honestly suspect that I get treatment-resistant strains of ich more often than not). I've got no scientific studies to back up the treatment I'm advocating- it's based on my own experience, not myth.

If I had ich in my main tank with valuable fish I'd honestly scrap all the plants, boil all my substrate, and bleach the tank. Perhaps it's how long I've worked around the medical field, but I tend to respect that most life forms are more hardy and able to survive in real life more often than not what might kill them in a laboratory setting. I take eradicating stuff pretty seriously.

I do whatever it takes to ensure that I don't have to deal with ich more than once per fish.

I haven't had ich in any of my main tanks in more than 10 years. I deal with it just about every time I buy new fish, however. My methods work, and that works for me.

Take that or leave that, my advice is what it is LOL


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## Complexity

That's fine, Laura Lee. As I've said, I very much appreciate that you are concerned enough to try to warn me. And I'm certainly not trying to be argumentative.

I would like to point out something, though. If this dormant ich has been around for 25 years, wouldn't someone have published _something_ about it? That's a very long time for something like that to _not be documented by anyone_. Just food for thought. :smile:


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## lauraleellbp

Our hobby isn't that high on the list of things that get research grants...  It's all about $$.

Chances are there's research out there- just might not have made it online, or not a source that your typical webbrowser has access to.


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## Complexity

Anyway, back to the H/T plan. I've cleaned out one of the 5g for the apisto. His wound has still not healed which concerns me. I may try another round of Maracyn. While he behaves perfectly normal, maybe the wound is infected, but not enough to bring him down? Maybe I should do a round of Maracyn and Maracyn II. That wound has been on the apisto too long, I think.

Okay, so now that my apisto has been moved, I can clean up the anubias to move into the 10g H/T for the amanos. That will then free up my 5g tanks to be cleaned for H/Ts. Once that's done, it'll be time to actually move the fish into their H/Ts and begin treatment.


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## Complexity

lauraleellbp said:


> Chances are there's research out there- just might not have made it online, or not a source that your typical webbrowser has access to.


Perhaps. I will definitely keep your cautions in mind. If I go through my intended plan for treating the fish, and it does not work (the fish get reinfected when put back in the 75g), then I will most certainly treat the tank. I'm hoping it won't come to that, though. Time will tell.


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## Complexity

Oh, geeez, I just realized something. I used the same python to change the water in my apisto's 10g H/T that I've used to change the water in the 75g. This means my apisto may have been exposed to ich, as well. I'll have to keep a real close eye on him.


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## lauraleellbp

Vicki, does the wound on the Apisto look like there is still raw flesh, or might it just be a permanent scar at this point?

It's been more than a month, now, right?

Maracyn is pretty potent stuff- and another round might be too strong for him (antibiotics have a great habit of being indiscriminant and taking out good bacteria, like the kind needed to digest food, along with the bad).

What about just using Melafix at this point? And some salt, to ward off 2ndary infections as well as take care of any ich he may have been exposed to?


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## mott

Some say that ICH is always present in fish and just wait for them to become stressed enough to show.

I think you guy's are overthinking this, Turn the heat up in the 75 and maybe a little salt. In a weeks time with no host I would think you should have no problems.
This is a proven method that many have had success with.


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## Guest

lauraleellbp said:


> Our hobby isn't that high on the list of things that get research grants...  It's all about $$.
> 
> Chances are there's research out there- just might not have made it online, or not a source that your typical webbrowser has access to.


This is very true which is why alot of the times I deal with my tank almost the same way I deal with my pond when it comes to parasites.

Here is a nice article on Ich

Also I am not sure why you wouldnt treat the tank as well cause the cyst can be dropped from the fish and may also attach themselves to plants and gravel. Which if you didnt bring any new fish in then what ever new plants you brought in had it.

Here is another nice write up on how he got rid of Ich.

And one more.

Good luck and I am sure from reading you can clearly see that cyst can stay in the gravel without a host. Just do a lookup on google for Ich in gravel.


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## Guest

mott said:


> Some say that ICH is always present in fish and just wait for them to become stressed enough to show.
> 
> I think you guy's are overthinking this, Turn the heat up in the 75 and maybe a little salt. In a weeks time with no host I would think you should have no problems.
> This is a proven method that many have had success with.



Every tank has parasites. Its just a matter if the fish becomes stressed enough or gets a infection that they cant fight the parasite off. Many dont realize fish have the parasites until there fish shows the signs of having them.


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## Complexity

Demented, I haven't read the articles you link yet (but I will); however, your logic is still not making any sense.

The concern is cysts in the gravel (or on plants or whatever), right?

Medicine cannot kill those cysts. So why medicate the tank?


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## Complexity

Mott, I'm going to try to not use salt in the 75g unless I can determine that all of the plants in there can tolerate it. They probably can, but I don't want to start using salt and then find out that half of my plants are dying which further erodes the water quality. I will be adding salt to the H/Ts while treating the fish. Only exception will be the inverts (amanos).

Laura Lee, I don't have any Melafix, but if it's better, I could get some. I've only head of using Maracyn and Maracyn II (not that I've done much research on this). And, yes, the apisto has been in the H/T for a month as of 7-15. This is why that spot continues to concern me. It's also very interesting in that it seems to be changing — getting better, then worse, then better, then worse. This includes not only the amount of white I'm seeing, but also how swollen the area is.

I've also noticed that he's protective of that side. He loves to greet me at the front of the tank, but he will only expose his healthy side to me. The amount of time he'll turn around to expose his wounded side is very little. It's clear he's doing this intentionally. This further concerns me.


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## Guest

Complexity said:


> Demented, I haven't read the articles you link yet (but I will); however, your logic is still not making any sense.
> 
> The concern is cysts in the gravel (or on plants or whatever), right?
> 
> Medicine cannot kill those cysts. So why medicate the tank?



Ich has a life cycle you can speed its life cycle up by heating the water. Say you heat the water to 80 now it will go through its stages of life faster looking for a host.

The cysts are going to basically hatch in warmer water faster looking for there host. Which is why you would raise the temp and treat the tank as well.


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## Complexity

Heating the water is something I agree with. That's been my plan all along for all tanks, including my 75g.


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## lauraleellbp

Melafix is an essential oil from the Melaleuca tree, with natural antibiotic properties. IME it's a little more gentle than Maracyn, fairly inexpensive, and combined with salt tends to work very well. Since you already tried Maracyn once, I'd try something else this time. It may be that the infection the fish has remaining is Maracyn-resistant at this point. http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...elafix_4_oz?&query=melafix&queryType=0&offset=


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## Ugly Genius

Complexity, I have nothing to add in regards to battling ich, but I want to say keep fighting the fight, girl! Keep the faith. We're rooting for you.


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## @[email protected]

> Oh, geeez, I just realized something. I used the same python to change the water in my apisto's 10g H/T that I've used to change the water in the 75g. This means my apisto may have been exposed to ich, as well. I'll have to keep a real close eye on him.


add salt and raise temps. if its the one with the wound, it cant hurt. even if there is no ich, the salt will kill some bacteria and protists and lower the chance of infection while the raised temps will help him make antibodies faster.



> Some say that ICH is always present in fish and just wait for them to become stressed enough to show.


and some also say goldfish do fine in bowls. 
if you believe that, do you also believe all people have tapeworms? also, if ich is always present, but only a problem when the fish are stressed, then how come if you add an ich host fish into a tank they all get ich? i wouldnt think 1 guppy could stress out a bunch of big fish enough to make them sick.
most WILD fish have COME IN CONTACT with ich. but in the wild, ich are very successful parasites (a parasites success is judged by how little damage it does to its host, so it can survive on the same host the longest). you may get 3 spots, they fall off, and the fish just keeps on swimming. that way it doesnt get re-infected (at least not soon). in a tank, it gets 3 and then all their offspring, and so on until it cant sustain them all. most unfiltered surface water probably has ich, but tap water is treated for protozoans, so there are no ich in there.



> Maracyn is pretty potent stuff- and another round might be too strong for him (antibiotics have a great habit of being indiscriminant and taking out good bacteria, like the kind needed to digest food, along with the bad).


i never had maracyn hurt my nitritifying colonies. i suspect people THINK it does that, when it actually doesnt. perhaps its just the bioload of billions of dead bacteria. if you use established gravel in a tank but dry it out first and keep it in the dark, you will see just how big a bioload dead bacteria are.


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## lauraleellbp

@[email protected] said:


> i never had maracyn hurt my nitritifying colonies. i suspect people THINK it does that, when it actually doesnt. perhaps its just the bioload of billions of dead bacteria. if you use established gravel in a tank but dry it out first and keep it in the dark, you will see just how big a bioload dead bacteria are.


I didn't say anything about N-bacteria, I was referring to it being too hard on the fish.


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## @[email protected]

oh, by good bacteria i thought you also meant the Ns. my bad.
yeah, intestinal fauna can be affected by antibiotics. though i dont know if maracyn does that.


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## Complexity

This is really weird. I have all the tanks ready to go. Waited for the water temperature to equalize with the current tank (water from my tap is warmer than the tank water).

All during this time, I keep watching the fish. And I do not see any spots! The spot on the cardinal in the H/T is still there, but I can't find a single spot on any of the fish.

There are a couple of places where I think _might_ be a spot, but if it is, why wouldn't it have grown by now?

You'd think either the cardinals or guppies would be showing spots by now, wouldn't they?

Maybe this isn't ich?

Now that I have all the tanks ready to go, I'm really thinking twice as to whether it's a good idea to pull them out of the 75g. I'm wondering if I should just do a watch and see for now. I swore the female krib had flashed, but what if she was just doing her mating shimmy instead?

I don't know what to think of this now.

Maybe I can get a picture of the spot on the cardinal so I can see it close up to see if it looks like ich or something else.


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## @[email protected]

try and get the pic. tetras tend to stay still for a few seconds at a time so it shouldnt be too hard to get a close up. heh, that would be funny if its not ich. 

if you arent sure, its best to seperate them anyway and see what happens.


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## Complexity

Okay, i got some good pics. I had no choice but to remove him from the water to get pics that were good enough to actually see the spot.

So is this ich? I can't think of anything else it could be. I know ich is supposed to be round, but this is pretty much round (a bit tear drop shaped). Also, notice in the close-up how the skin/scales have created a circle of some sort around it.

I left the pictures very large to not lose any information they show.


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## Complexity

I decided to start a new thread about this because most people wouldn't look here to answer questions about ich.

The new thread is here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/70100-ich-pictures.html


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## Complexity

OMG! I now know which fish has been eating the tails on my guppies. It's my male Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke'. I just saw him with a guppy in its mouth! The guppy couldn't get away. I started banging on the glass, and the pelvicachromis finally let go of the guppy. The poor thing's tail is pretty much gone! I think I'll have to euthanize him.

I had no idea a pelvicachromis would do that to guppies! It has to be their long, flowing tails that's attracting him. Maybe they're getting in his territory, and they can't swim away fast enough?

I don't really have any other place to put the guppies. I could put them in my 20L, but that would mix them in with my female guppies, and you know what that means.

Amazing. I was thinking it was the torpedo barbs. But it's that one male krib! He's very territorial. He's also my favorite fish of them all!


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## Chrisinator

Sorry to hear about your guppies. Also,I've heard someone who had the same case as your Cardinal Tetra. He didn't live that long.


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## @[email protected]

guppies are remarkably careless about their tails, i wouldnt kill him yet. i dont believe in euthanasia until there is no hope at all left.


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## Complexity

I think something got the guppy already. Usually, when I find their tails bitten, they're hovering at the top in a corner. One previous guppy was so traumatized, he had to be put down. Another guppy recovered and is growing a new tail.

However, this guppy has disappeared. I came to check on it to see if it was recovering or not, and I couldn't find it. If it's dead, I'd like to at least remove its body, but I can't find it anywhere.

I had a black guppy disappear some time in the last month. And I think I'm missing one or two more. For the most part, they're doing fine. But it looks like the Pelvicachromis is taking them down, one by one, slowly but surely.

I don't really want the guppies (most are from fry), but I didn't intend on them becoming dinner.


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## TheCryptKeeper

hey Vicki.. how is everything coming along?


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## Rod Hay

Complexity said:


> OMG! I now know which fish has been eating the tails on my guppies. It's my male Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke'. I just saw him with a guppy in its mouth!
> 
> I had no idea a pelvicachromis would do that to guppies!
> 
> * Maybe they're getting in his territory*, and they can't swim away fast enough?


YES! Guppies are not only slow by speed; they are also slow in the brain department! Very stupid fish. Only fish I know dumb enough to swim right into a net when you put it in the water; every other fish understands: "Yikes, something is up! Run!" I don't think they ever "get it" that the Krib really means business when he chases them out of his territory. 

My male _P. taeniatus _"Moliwe" ripped the tail off a large female endler so badly I also had no choice but to finish the job. This happened when their first spawn was free-swimming. Now that they're on their third or fourth spawn he's a little more laid back. However, when he's too laid back, Mama Krib gives him a good stong scolding bite or two!

I keep a few female endlers in their tank just to provide some live food excitement when they drop. Might be mean, but hey, it's nature. Sometimes my apistogrammas get lazy about cleaning up the endler population explosions, however I've never had this problem in the Krib tank!:icon_twis Unfortunately I think I may soon need another predator to help me keep the Krib babies in check.:icon_roll ???


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## Complexity

Ken, thanks for asking! It's coming alone okay. I'm still very spooked about the tetra's spot. I find that I'm constantly looking for spots instead of enjoying my fish which isn't much fun. I still wish I knew what's causing the spot on the cardinal that's in a H/T right now. I'll feel so much better when I get a better uv sterilizer on the tank.

As far as the algae, I don't see any growing so removing the anubias seems to have helped. I also have a ton of hornwort in there that's beginning to take up all the free swimming space left in the tank! I'd consider selling some of it, but not until I get the larger uv sterilizer to be better sure I won't be giving parasites or bacteria to others.

I'm still working on the CO2 dosage. It seems no matter what I do, I can't get the pH to go below 7.2. In fact, it's been at 7.4 a lot lately even though I've increased the CO2. I think I might have too much surface agitation? I need to install the second CustomFlo kit on the Eheim. When I do, I'll be able to add two spray bars instead of just the one which will help distribute the water current in the tank.

One neat thing I've been working on are the caves using the waterfall foam. Boy, that stuff really expands! I'm trying to see if I can use some small pvc pipes stacked together with the foam, and then using more foam to create a hill shape. What i'm thinking is that it could be used to create a mound in the substrate with the front open for caves. Kind of like small hill with a cliff. Then with some plants in front, it would help make the caves appear more natural. If I can pull this off, I'd not only have lots of caves for various fish, but it would also help break up the flat bottom look. No promises that it will work, though, I'm still experimenting with it.

I've been floating a whole lot of really great plants I received as extras in a SNS deal. They've been in my 20L all this time. If I can find some space between all the hornwort, I'd like to go ahead and plant the clippings to start having some nice looking stems. I'll need to get them identified at some point so watch for my ID request thread when I get farther along.


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## Complexity

Rod Hay said:


> My male _P. taeniatus _"Moliwe" ripped the tail off a large female endler so badly I also had no choice but to finish the job. This happened when their first spawn was free-swimming. Now that they're on their third or fourth spawn he's a little more laid back. However, when he's too laid back, Mama Krib gives him a good stong scolding bite or two!


I have a pair of Moliwe Pelvicachromis in the tank, as well. I had a 3rd pair, two Nigerian Reds, but the female was brutally killed one night. I probably need to move the male; he's probably the most placid of them all. The female Moliwe is dying to mate, and she's courting all males in the tank; however, the Kienke chases her off, leaving her to court the Moliwe AND the Nigerian Red. Both of those males don't seem overly interested, but the Moliwe seems to get it better than the Nigerian Red.

I knew cross breeding might be an issue by having different Pelvicachromis together in the tank. So far the Kienkes are _very_ monogamous so I'm not worried about them. But since the female Moliwe can't seem to get her partner straight, moving the Nigerian Red is best. He can go in my 20L. I'll work with my LFS to try to find him a mate or trade him in for another bonded couple of some sort.

So far, no more attacks on the guppies. But I'm sure it's only a matter of time. 

I'm also thinking I may not be feeding the fish enough. I noticed that the torpedo barbs were trying to eat algae off of the glass and my Blue German Ram was trying to eat some of the Riccia! :icon_eek: So I think I need to offer them a bit more food. Maybe that will help calm down some of the aggression against the guppies. I think the male Kienke is not only being protective of his territory, but he's also aggressively protecting his food! Looking for fallen food is what's bringing the guppies to get into the lower part of the tank in the first place. So if I feed more, maybe the guppies won't be so determined to scour every last inch of the tank bottom for food, and the Kienke won't feel such a strong need to worry over food. Probably not, but it's worth a shot. When torpedo barbs start trying to clean the algae off of the glass, I think it's a clear sign that they need more food. :smile:


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## ingg

Can't believe you'd consider euthanizing a taeniatus for guppies, but that is just me.

Move the guppies, or just make more - not like they aren't prolific.


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## Complexity

OH, NO! I'm sorry if I made it sound like I'd euthanize any healthy Pelvicachromis! :icon_eek:

I was saying that I may move the male Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Nigerian Red' out of my 75g tank to my 20L in order to prevent the female 'Moliwe' from breeding with him.

Other than that, I'm thinking that I may trade in the specific male 'Nigerian Red' to get another matched pair of P. taeniatus that are matched together already. I'd do that because all Pelvicachromis fish can be very particular about their mate. They will either accept a mate and remain pretty monogamous with it or they'll kill any unaccepted mate. This is why I think the female was killed. So if I was to just get another female for the male, there's no guarantee that he won't just kill her, too. It's better to put my male back into a tank with lots of females in order to let him choose his mate while I get another pair that's already showing signs of being paired up. This way, there's fewer problems with the male killing a bunch of females, one by one, until I happen to get a female he likes.

In the meantime, since the female Moliwe is trying to convince all of the males to mate with her, moving the male Nigerian Red to my 20L would help her unite more closely with her Moliwe partner.

Never, ever, EVER would I euthanize a Pelvicachromis over a guppy of any kind! I intend for the guppies to fade out over time, but I can't bring myself to euthanize them either. So I'm allowing nature to take its course. But if there's any way I can keep the guppies from dying a cruel death of being half eaten, then I'll do that.

My entire tank is for the dwarf cichlids with the Pelvicachromis being the top fish of them all. I don't know I would truly enjoy a tank without my Pelvicachromis!


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## Complexity

NOOOOOOOOOO!

I have a torpedo barb with dropsy. 

How in the heck am I supposed to get it out of a planted tank? Torpedo barbs are FAST and not easily tricked into a net.

I'm going to get a 36w uv sterilizer flown in overnight. Enough of this! There is definitely something in that tank that's infecting the fish.


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## Complexity

Big Al's won't ship overnight, and their regular ground shipping takes a week.

So what other store(s) should I try? I'd like to get the sterilizer in by tomorrow, if at all possible. Given the price of the fish I'm losing, I'm not concerned about not getting the best deal on the sterilizer. I just have to get it in NOW.


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## lauraleellbp

A UV is only going to help if you've got a parasite that has a free-swimming stage, and many parasites do not.

If it were my tank, I'd dose with Melafix. Dropsy is a symptom, not a real diagnosis, and sounds to me like you've got some sort of infection in your tank. Melafix is a "natural" antibiotic.


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## Complexity

The uv sterilizer will also kill bacteria.

Can I use Melafix directly in my 75g tank with plants and amano shrimp?


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## Complexity

Had to leave to take my daughter somewhere. Just got back. Managed to get the torpedo barb netted. He's in a 5g H/T now.

I'm seeing a couple of fish with what looks like white, stringy poop. That's a symptom of a parasite, right? Or could bacteria also cause that?


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## lauraleellbp

It's a sign that something is affecting their digestive systems... what, is another matter. Could be IPs, could be bad food, could be alot of things, unfortunately.

Yes, Melafix is shrimp and plant-safe. It's an essential oil from the melaleuca tree with natural antibiotic properites.

A UV sterilizer will only impact one vector of contagion- issues that are passed through the water column. If it's true that these issues are all being caused by a single organism, then there are quite a number of vectors of contagion that can't be addressed by a UV sterilizer. For example, some issues are spread by direct contact (such as bacteria, fungus, external parasites), IPs are often spread by fish eating or coming into contact with each other's poop (ugh, but they do it!)- neither of these would be impacted at all by a UV.

I'm not trying to discourage you from getting/using a UV, just making sure that you understand it can't completely eliminate contagion issues from your tank.


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## Complexity

I understand. I'm just trying to cover all the bases as best I can.

BTW, got my uv sterilizer at Marine Depot. They will ship overnight (for a small fortune!). While their price is higher than Big Al's, they will do price matching. I'm glad to know that because as much as I like Big Al's, it takes at least a week, if not more, for me to get my package from them. They are one of the slowest shippers I know of (partly due to their location and UPS's delivery plan).


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## mistergreen

you'd have to treat the whole tank.. It's an internal parasite of some sort but if I were to guess i'd say it's Hexamita.

http://www.fish-disease.net/diseases/hexamita.php

Your UV might control the spread of the disease but does not treat the infected fish. Sorry to say, but I've never had a fish recover from dropsy. The disease is too advanced at this point.. You might want to give it relief with a little salt & epson salt to balance it's osmosis regulation.


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## lauraleellbp

FYI, I was reading the most recent issue of TFH (Sept 08) and there was an ich question in the FW Q&A section... guess what the editors recommended if the tank is to lie fallow- 2 to 4 weeks. So there it is in print for ya! LOL

Anyways- any success feeding the fish garlic?


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## TheCryptKeeper

what I can say for a uv sterilizer... I love it.. I had a ton of problems with my tank.. mostly my fault.. but since I put the uv sterilizer in I haven't had any major issues.. knock on wood. ( probably pure coincidence )

I actually am going to buy a digital timer to put it on.. I have read where having it on all the time kills all bacteria and free swimming parasites.. but also over time will lower your fishes immune system.. so if something were to be introduced to your tank.. your fish wouldn't be able to fight it off very well. so I am going to run mine only a few days a week instead of 24/7


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## mistergreen

lauraleellbp said:


> FYI, I was reading the most recent issue of TFH (Sept 08) and there was an ich question in the FW Q&A section... guess what the editors recommended if the tank is to lie fallow- 2 to 4 weeks. So there it is in print for ya! LOL


huh?


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## MedRed

complexity... i'd recommend a green killing machine from petsmart. It's inexpensive, has a slow pass through, and high wattage.


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## lauraleellbp

mistergreen said:


> huh?


*For* *Your Information* {referring back to a conversation we were having previously about ich}, I was reading the most recent issue of *Tropical Hobbyist Fish* (Sept 08) {great aquarium magazine- www.tfhmagazine.com} and there was an ich question in the *FreshWater Question & Answer* section...

Is that better? LOL


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## Complexity

I haven't had much time to sit for a thorough visual examination of the fish, but it seems they're doing good this morning.

I haven't fed them any garlic; instead, opting to try the Spectrum Thera+A food which claims it "helps boost immune system to repel internal & external parasites". I bought it a couple of months ago on the recommendation of the owner of my favorite LFS. I stuck it in the freezer, but forgot so I couldn't find it! I finally found it yesterday. All of the fish really loved the food.

I will follow that up with a feeding of garlic a bit later today. I'm trying to feed smaller portions so I can get two feedings in a day without them overeating.

I did a large water change last night, about 75%. Darn Eheim then spewed millions of tiny air bubbles throughout the entire tank which was not good. I finally got the air purged so both filters were running good. I also managed to get the air lock out of my reactor so there are no bubbles coming out from anywhere.

I left the pH controller off for a couple of reasons. For one, I had adjusted it down the other day and didn't want to chance things with all the air bubbles everywhere. I also wanted to know if all the bubbles I'm constantly seeing throughout the tank is air spilling out from either filter or actual pearling. Well, I have my answer today. It's actual pearling. I'm getting an incredible amount of pearling when I run my CO2. The reason any of this matters is that I'm considering gas bubbles as one of the possible issues the fish are having. As of this moment, the fish are swimming all over with zero bubbles of any kind in the tank. I'll turn the CO2 on and see what happens.

I also put the Melafix in the tank. It worried me at first when it combined with the bubbles coming out of the Eheim. It looked like a foam on the surface. But now that the Eheim is working fine, the surface is fine.

An interesting note: My male amano shrimp are swimming erratically all over the tank! I'm not sure what's going on. I have never seen them behave this way. I've read that they will do this when a female amano is ready to have her eggs fertilized, but I've never seen so many males swim like this ever before. A part of me worries about this, but the females aren't doing it so I don't think they're in distress. I'm wondering if the Melafix is fooling the males somehow. Or maybe the large water change prompted several females to release the hormone that triggers the males into breeding? Right now, as I look at them, there are probably 15 male amanos swimming everywhere. I may see if I can get a decent recording of it using my cell phone so I can show how they're acting.

And, lastly, I'm sitting here waiting for my uv sterilizer to arrive. Once I get that and have it installed, I think I've done just about everything I can do.

Oh, and a quick report on the 3 fish in H/Ts. No change on any of them. The apisto still has his spot, but behaves perfectly fine. The cardinal tetra's spot is very white and may have grown just a touch, but otherwise, there doesn't seem to be any difference. And the torpedo barb with dropsy is clearly stressed by being in a H/T, but he did eat. He's still showing signs of dropsy, of course, but he doesn't look any worse.


----------



## mistergreen

lauraleellbp said:


> *For* *Your Information* {referring back to a conversation we were having previously about ich}, I was reading the most recent issue of *Tropical Hobbyist Fish* (Sept 08) {great aquarium magazine- www.tfhmagazine.com} and there was an ich question in the *FreshWater Question & Answer* section...
> 
> Is that better? LOL


YOu left out the obvious part that made me say huh?


lauraleellbp said:


> *guess what the editors recommended if the tank is to lie fallow- 2 to 4 weeks.*


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## lauraleellbp

lol

Well shoot...

Let me reword: The editors' recommendantion if you are leaving a tank fallow (empty of fish) to deal with ich is 2 to 4 weeks.


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## Complexity

Snag in the delivery of the uv sterilizer.

I checked the tracking and found that my overnight order that was to arrive today was rescheduled to be shipped today with an arrival for Monday! :icon_eek:

So I called Marine Depot and told them my concern. The guy I spoke with was wonderful. When he saw the problem, he talked to his manager, and they're going to call FedEx to change the delivery to a Saturday delivery (tomorrow). I paid $46 for overnight delivery of this beast, and I'm not happy that they screwed it up. But at least they're trying to get it to me as quickly as possible.

The guy from Marine Depot said he'll be calling me back in about an hour to let me know if they were able to change the delivery to a Saturday delivery. I sure hope so!

I think once the shipping is figured out, then I will request a discount on the shipping charges. $46 is way too much to pay for overnight delivery, but most certainly too much to pay for 2 day delivery (or 4 day!!).


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## Complexity

Captain's Log number 2044z: 

UV Sterilizer saga being discussed in this thread. Basically, the first shipment was late and then the bulb blew when I installed it. Getting a replacement in tomorrow so I'm hoping I can finally get a sterilizer online.

My Torpedo Barbs have changed personality, especially one that now thinks he's a cichlid, discussed in this thread. Other torpedo barbs have been chasing each other which may be a game of tag, but it's still a change in personality for them. I'm afraid either the illness or Melafix or medicated food is causing this.

The Torpedo Barb with dropsy has slimmed down and his scales aren't sticking out like before, but his color is awful. He's lost almost all of his red color, and his normally shiny silver is dull. His black stripe is also dulled. The color change is what first clued me in that he was sick, and even though the dropsy seems to be getting slightly better, it's clear he is still a very sick fish. I have decided to begin treatment with Maracyn II as a last ditch effort. The only good news is that he is still eating. He hides most of the time, but will eventually eat a little when I back off.

The apisto is same as always. I'm beginning to wonder if his spot is a permanent injury which has healed as best as possible, making him safe to be put back in the main tank. Of course, I won't even consider it until things in the main tank are in good shape.

The cardinal tetra is also exhibiting no change. As cardinals do, he's very skittish when I come around to check on him. So it's hard to get a good, close look at the spot, but I can tell it's still there and very white. It doesn't appear to have grown any. He seems to be doing as well as can be expected given that he's a schooling fish that's all by himself now. He is also eating as long as I back away.

Other than some behavioral changes with the torpedo barbs, all the fish in the main tank seem stable. They're all eating and swimming well. No clamped fins or other physical signs of problems. The only thing I am noticing is that I'm continuing to see white, stringy poop from the GBR and a bit of "sausage" brown poop from some of the torpedo barbs and pelvicachromis. I'm trying to feed them medicated food, but they're not liking it as much as the more natural type of non-medicated anti-parasitic food. They go wild for that stuff.

I hate this Malefix. I hate the smell of it and I hate that it tends to add a bit of cloudiness to the tank for a few hours after adding it. It claims I'm supposed to dose it for 7 straight days, followed with a 25% water change, and that's driving me nuts. I want to do a water change NOW.

Getting some kind of algae throughout which is further exasperating me. Not sure what kind it is yet. If my fish were healthier, I'd tackle the algae much more aggressively, but I don't feel it's good for the fish in their current health state.

OH, and after all that depressing news, I do have something happy to report! My female Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke' that has been an extremely dark purple and is highly bonded with the male has stopped swimming around. She's now hanging out in a cave pretty much most of the time. The male generally stands guard outside, but goes inside from time to time. I have a feeling they've laid eggs! Unless all this other mess in the tank kills them, I might have some fry to enjoy sometime soon! :smile:


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## lauraleellbp

Actually, I doubt that you should run a UV with Melafix or while dosing a tank with anything else, anyways (likely to break down the active chemical compounds) so it may not be that big a deal after all (other than the headache of jumping through the hoops necessary to get your replacement bulb...).


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## Complexity

Not a bad point regarding running the sterilizer with Melafix. But if I have to chose between the two, I'd much rather run the sterilizer. So far, I don't see much change with the Melafix. Plus, I am itching so much to change the water.

I also realized that I screwed up dosing the Melafix. I was dosing TWICE as much as I should! I realized it yesterday. That's probably partly why I really hated the stuff.

The plan of action I think I want to take at this point is to use the uv sterilizer to kill anything in the water and feed the fish either medicated or non-medicated food that kills parasites and/or bacteria. But of greatest importance is to get that water healthy.

Another member here PMed me about a place with medicated flakes (sorry, I haven't answered the PM yet). It's angelsplus.com. I'm very interested in their medicated food. I have been feeding the fish the non-medicated food which they love, but the medicated food I have now is in granule form and too large for a lot of my fish to eat. The flakes would be much better.

The combination of ensuring the water is free of parasites and bacteria while also feeding medicated food that actually goes inside the fish and not just coats their body is what I'd prefer. When we are given medicine from a doctor, we are to ingest the medicine, not rub it on our skin. If these fish do have a problem in their digestive tracks, then that's where the medicine needs to go.

I could be wrong with this method, of course, but all attempted remedies could be wrong. It's always a hit or miss when there are no visible signs to offer a positive identification of what's wrong. It just seems to make sense to me to provide clean water (free of parasites, bacteria) and to offer the fish medication to rid their bodies of the same. Medicating the water is great when we're killing things such as free-swimming ich, but when something is internal, I think that's where the medicine should go.

Right or wrong, wish me luck!


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## @[email protected]

careful. if you medicate, try to at least be close to sure that you are medicating the right thing (dont use an antibiotic for a fungus and so on). diagnosis is always helpful.

ever take antibiotic cream? i do (acne). its usually hard to get a hold of, since you need a perscription, but my mom is a doctor. the stuff might actually work. but its for a skin infection.
but fish are different. they live in water, so their body isnt as water-proofed as ours, no point. you cant really dehydrate under water (dont mention sea water, its the salt thats the problem). so the meds do get inside them. of course oral is better, but water dosing isnt as useless as some people think.

any more deaths?
any infections getting worse?
if your fish can survive it longe enough, their bodies will adapt and fight the parasite. thats all antibiotics do, buy time. fungucides, are different, and i dont know about medication for protist infections (like ameobas).


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## lauraleellbp

Water dosing for fish is actually very effective. It's like giving a human a breathing treatment. Medication is taken up through the fish's gills and goes straight into the bloodstream. Depending on the target of the medication, it can be more effective than going through a fish's digestive system (unless, for example, the target is parasites inside the digestive system itself...)


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## Complexity

@[email protected] said:


> any more deaths?
> any infections getting worse?
> if your fish can survive it longe enough, their bodies will adapt and fight the parasite. thats all antibiotics do, buy time. fungucides, are different, and i dont know about medication for protist infections (like ameobas).


One death, but we knew it was coming. The torpedo barb that got dropsy died last night. I knew he was doing very badly given his coloration. In a way, it's a blessing as I really hated watching him suffer.

Other than that, no new infections that I can find. I take this to be a very good sign considering how long it's been. That certainly doesn't mean they're out of the woods yet, but it is a good sign.

Now for some good news...

I have fry! :biggrin:

I knew it! The Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke' spawned! I spotted the female was out of her cave, but still very close to it. So when I looked more closely, I could see her fry! She has maybe 25 fry! Mom and dad Kienke are being excellent parents. He'll guard the fry while letting her eat a little, and then they'll trade off while dad Kienke would be ever so watchful and chase off anything that came even remotely close. It's interesting to watch the male amanos. Some have tried to creep ever so slowly towards the fry, but either the mom or dad would spy them and chase them off.

I was just about to do a massive water change and install the replacement UV when I saw them. But I've decided to give them a few minutes before I do anything. Naturally, vacuuming will be very careful around that area. I guess I also need to cover the intake screens.

But, wow! Fry already! I knew they wanted to have fry from the moment they were put in the tank. It was just a matter of finding a suitable cave. Once they found it, they got to business very fast!

I am so thrilled! I know they probably won't make it to adulthood, but I will very much enjoy them while they're here. It's the interaction of the parents that fascinates me, and I'm seeing that already.

I don't want to frighten them with pictures so that will have to wait a little bit. I'm just so excited! After all this glum over illnesses, sterilizers, medicines, out comes this incredible surprise! :smile:


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## lauraleellbp

Vicki, I really wouldn't do any gravel vacuuming, especially anywhere near the fry. If you want to do a water change, do a really small one just from the water column in a spot as far from the fry as you can. IME parenting fish don't do well being disturbed, plus fry are SUPER sensitive to changes in water.

I'm glad the barb is out of his misery, too. Dropsy doesn't look like a fun thing to die from.


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## Complexity

Trust me, I'll be very careful around the fry (as in not get anywhere close to them!). Good point about fry not liking large water changes. I may just do a series of smaller ones each day. I'm not happy with the water. It's been killing me to not do a water change all this time.

I finally installed a new *working* uv sterilizer which meant I had to work directly above the parents and fry. I expected them to race back into their cave, but interestingly enough, they didn't! They did move back a little, but that's it.

So now I have the uv sterilizer installed. If there's anything in the water, I hope it is killed out before the fry gets it. 

What a wonderful day today turned out to be! I finally got a uv sterilizer installed and my very favorite fish in my entire tank has new fry! Now _this_ is why I enjoy having an aquarium. Moments like this make all the heartache and frustration worthwhile.


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## lauraleellbp

:thumbsup: I'm so glad things are finally taking on a nice turn for you!

I also think smaller water changes would be a really good plan.


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## Complexity

Thanks! I'm very glad some of the frustration is finally over. I was feeling pretty down for awhile there.

Oh, and my psycho torpedo barb appears to have recovered from its amnesia and realize he's a peaceful barb, not an aggressive cichlid! I don't know what made the change, but he's not hiding in his cave, chasing off the other barbs anymore. He's still doing a bit of chasing while in the group, but nothing like before when he was chasing them endlessly all over the tank.

Lights just went out. I hope the new mom and dad Kienkes scuttle the new babies into the cave for safety. I have a feeling there are a lot of fish in that tank that wouldn't mind a tender midnight snack!


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## TheCryptKeeper

good to hear that things are turning around for you.. nice to see your thread title without troubles in it. I am going to want a pair of the fry when they are older you know! 

I could tell when my torpedo's were sick when they lost their color.. I can say that now when I feed them.. I use new life spectrum flakes, bloodworms, and brine shrimp.. and their colors are outstanding. usually the females red stripe is muted and a little pink.. not mine.. bright fire engine red.

we (meaning me) want to see pics!


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## lauraleellbp

Torpedobarb said:


> we (meaning me) want to see pics!


I'll be in that "we" too!  :thumbsup:


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## MedRed

YAY for Happy Times!!!!


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## CL

good. This thread was making me sad


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## @[email protected]

wow, great.
unfortunately, good things only happen in order for bad things to be able to happen (you cant lose something you dont have, so you get something, just to lose it later). everything ever born is doomed to die.
hopefully a lot later and not to the mystery disease though.

i dont know about pelvi-whatever, but bettas do great. they need LOTS of waterchanges (like 99% a day), or their growth stunts.


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## Church

YAAY!!!! It's always darkest before dawn, and it looks like the sun is coming up nice and bright now!!


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## Complexity

Thanks everyone! I was getting pretty sad about it all, but I knew things would turn around. I was mostly afraid that whatever was in my tank was indeed, "game over". That really scared me. But look how long it's been already, and that's without the sterilizer. So if I had something that was going to wipe out all my fish, I think I'd have more symptoms by now. I'm still worried, but greatly relieved that the sterilizer is inline now.

Ken, if enough fry survive, I'll be honored to send you a pair! I think you'll find these to be everything as great as the P. pulcher, but even better! The colors are amazing, and my female is so extremely red, she's truly crimson. Even now, she's still very colored up.

I'll try to post some pictures today. It's been busy these last few weeks because I've been driving my kids around a lot (they're taking driver's ed). It wouldn't be so bad if I was at my house, but it's a longer trip from my apartment. Today, I only have one trip to make, and then other than washing clothes and trying to clean up this place, my schedule is pretty open. So I hope to have time to get and process some pics for you all.

Marko, I've had bettas, and while they are very beautiful, I know they would not fair well in my tank with the Pelvi... um... Kribs.  Since they're already killing the guppies by eating their tails, I can only imagine what they'd do with a betta. Plus, I'm pretty highly stocked as it is. My main goal now is to get everything stable, fish and plants. I still have some algae issues to tend to which have taken a back seat while I was working on the fish health issues.

The new fry has really lifted my spirits! Watching the parents care for the fry is the one thing I really wanted most of all. It's what I remembered the most from when I had tanks before and what I've been looking forward to this entire time that I've gotten back into having tanks. And now it's happened! And these fry are from an extremely good looking pair which appear to be excellent parents right from the start. They are the highlight of my entire tank!


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## lauraleellbp

The fry made it through the night OK?


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## @[email protected]

no, you didnt get what i meant. 
laura said that fry dont like large water changes. i said that betta fry (since they are the only fry i had besides guppies, which are indestructable) NEED large water chagnes daily to keep growing well.
i wasnt suggesting putting a betta in there. either the pelvi...s would eat the tail and it would get fin rot, or they would eat its tail and the betta would stike back (bettas are slow, but persistant, i have had one kill a danio, and danios are fast).


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## Complexity

Oh, thanks for the clarification Marko! I understand what you meant now. 

The fry are still doing great! In fact, as I type, I can see mom and dad taking the fry out for a swim. They're right in front of the tank so I can see them very easily. They are such incredible parents! NO ONE is allowed anywhere close to them. If anyone tries, one parent stays with the fry while the other is lightning fast at chasing the intruder away.

It's also interesting to watch them guard their fry. They are always looking all around. Many times, the mom and dad are facing opposite directions so they can watch all sides.

Is is this manner of parenting that has always fascinated me with the Pelvicachromis species. Their commitment to protecting their fry is how they are able to have fry survive even in a community tank.

I so much want to get a picture, but I don't want to disturb the parents. So it'll have to wait. Maybe I can get my camcorder; although it's so old, I have no idea how well it can pick up the fry. One way or another, I'll try to get something to show, but only when I can do it without stressing out the parents.


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## CrimsonKeel

Great thread. finally got through it all and find out you got FRY its great.


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## lauraleellbp

@[email protected] said:


> no, you didnt get what i meant.
> laura said that fry dont like large water changes. i said that betta fry (since they are the only fry i had besides guppies, which are indestructable) NEED large water chagnes daily to keep growing well.
> i wasnt suggesting putting a betta in there. either the pelvi...s would eat the tail and it would get fin rot, or they would eat its tail and the betta would stike back (bettas are slow, but persistant, i have had one kill a danio, and danios are fast).


Marko- I'm making a bit of a distinction between fry and juveniles. 

I never made water changes at all while my betta fry were still fry. I only added small quantities of water to the tank every day. It wasn't till the fry were at least a week or two old, very active and off of infusioria that I would start doing water changes. I wouldn't do *large* water changes until they were at least a month old. After that, I agree- the more water changes the better.

So yes, IME fry are very sensitive to water changes. Especially very young/wigglers. Too much too soon can be a shock to them.


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## Complexity

It may not matter anymore. I have a feeling the fry's gone. I saw mom swimming around which is not right. She and the Moliwe female were sparring a bit while two of the males were around so it looks like the fry is gone and it's time to try again.

I'll double check tomorrow when I can get a better look, but usually when the female starts swimming around, the fry is gone; otherwise, she'd be with them.


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## CL

bummer  Maybe next time


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## Complexity

It's okay. I can tell there will definitely be a next time. I need to work harder to offer more caves and hiding places. The tank is still too much in flux right now.

I'm also seeing that the Moliwe female is really coming into color so she's going to want to breed soon, too. It was interesting to watch the two females spar with each other. No one got hurt (I don't think they even touched each other), but I've never had a tank large enough for two females to see them behave this way. The Moliwe female used to not care, but she's definitely wanting to breed, and she's not being overly picky over which male she convinces to breed with her!

I may have to remove the Nigerian Red as the Moliwe female keeps teasing him while the Moliwe male kind of acts like he wouldn't mind a threesome! I definitely need to help these guys figure out who is with which female. I don't know which fish killed the Nigerian Red female, but the male needs to resolve himself to bachelorhood until I can get him a mate. Once I know the disease issue is cleared up, I will probably have to move the Nigerian Red to my 20L tank so he can quit messing up the courtship with the two Moliwes. They can and will interbreed if I'm not careful.

So my next step is to really work hard on getting a scape planned out with lots of caves, the more, the better. That will help the parents protect their next batch of fry.


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## lauraleellbp

Hey Vicki- check out the link to ACA 2008 I posted in the Fish forum... I think you'll appreciate some of the pics.


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## Complexity

Update! I still have fry!

The mom Kienke seems to be swimming around more, I think wanting food, but I just spotted the male guarding the fry. I think the numbers are less than from the beginning, but they're so hard to see, I can't tell for sure. When he saw me looking, he immediately started putting them in his mouth (that's how they protect the fry if they feel threatened). So he's being a very good dad.

All fish appear to be healthy at this point. I'm not seeing any more signs of problems; although, I'm still being very guarded. But at least I'm not seeing any spots or white stringy poop right now. I need to watch my BGR for the poop as she was the one who I saw with the white stringy poop the most.

I have discontinued the Melafix, but I am still feeding the natural anti-parasitic food at least once a day. They LOVE this food, and every single fish will eat it enthusiastically.

I'm having more and more algae problems, probably because I've screwed up in my fert dosing. I will do a water change (much needed) and begin dosing again. I think I'll also have to pull out the java ferns and mosses to treat them for BBA.

But the best news of the day is that the Kienke's still have some fry!


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## Complexity

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey Vicki- check out the link to ACA 2008 I posted in the Fish forum... I think you'll appreciate some of the pics.


I found it! Here's the link for anyone else who wants to see: http://www.tedsfishroom.com/wp/visits/aquarium-conventions-shows-and-workshops/aca-2008-atlanta

I was shocked to read this part: _"There were suprisingly few Pelvicachrmomis species, even though the winner of that class was an exceptional P. pulcher female."_ I'm not wanting to knock the beautiful female that won, but she's definitely not anywhere close to my females, most especially my Kienke. Maybe next year, I'll enter the contest! :icon_lol:

I have to get a good picture of my Kienkes. I think they are so gorgeous, more beautiful than can be believed. The female is colored up much more than any Pelvicachromis I have ever seen. The owner of the LFS selected her especially for me along with her male mate who is also exceptional.

It's a shame the Pelvicachromis aren't more known in the aquarium community as they are definitely some of the most incredible fish available. Well, at least I think so! :biggrin:

Thanks for the link, LL. I very much enjoyed it!


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## lauraleellbp

I agree, I didn't think that winning female looked all that in the pic, either- but I also think she looked stressed, so perhaps the pic didn't show her at her glory?

I hope you can get some pics of your fish posted- I'd love to see them!


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## Complexity

I also think it's very hard to capture the true beauty of the fish in a picture. I've tried, and nothing I've managed to capture shows what my female Kienke really looks like.

I just got some more rocks in hopes that these will be aquarium safe. I'm not putting my heart into these fry because I've noticed that mom and dad will leave them unattended to eat. Mom seems to be more interested in breeding than being a mom, but dad is doing a good job of guarding the little ones.

I know I keep saying I'll get pictures, and I have taken some, but I've been really busy so I haven't processed any yet.

I also have a dark brown/red amano that I want to show. It's very strange in color, unlike any of my other amanos.

Oh, and quick update on the cardinal with the spot. It's still in Q/T. The spot CAME OFF! I've been looking for more spots, and nothing yet. I need to sterilize one of my Q/Ts to move the cardinal there so if the spot dropped something into the water, the cardinal will be moved out of that water.

I really haven't done anything for the cardinal other than feed it anti-parasitic food. Maybe that's what it needed? I'm actually surprised it's doing so well. It might be able to come back to the main tank one day.


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## lauraleellbp

Spot coming off sounds like an ich cyst to me  

I have 2 red Amanos ATM- and both are berried females, I bet yours will berry up soon, as well. Does it have a very prominent stripe down its back? (I'm sort of coming up with a theory about these stripes and female shrimp...)


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## Complexity

Oh, I have tons of amanos that are berried. This one is just a different color. It's as if she was in the sun too long and got a dark tan!

The spot wasn't ich. That's what I thought it was at first, but it hasn't behaved like ich; plus, the close up pictures I took left everyone saying it wasn't ich (see this thread for pics).

I have never figured out what it is/was, but I will not reintroduce that fish into my 75g for a long time. I'm just surprised the cardinal has done so well!


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## TheCryptKeeper

good to hear that the cardinal is doing better.. also that you still have fry!

now get to the pics already!


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## Complexity

Update:

No more fry.  I had a feeling they wouldn't make it. Both parents would leave them unattended to eat which was a bad sign. I also don't think I have enough caves for the parents to have much of a chance at success, but I'll keep working on it. I'm sure they'll breed again.

I was really busy this last week and missed my weekly trim and water change, and as a result, the hornwort has completely taken over! It has covered the surface so much, I have to move it back to get food into the water. Yikes! :icon_eek: That stuff really is a weed!

I am finally about to try to do a real scape on my tank! Ingg was so kind in helping design a scape for me. I am truly design challenged. I love what he suggested!

I got some good sized rocks to use which are more pink or red colored than I had hoped, but if I really don't like them, I can always change them later. I'll post a few pictures in a minute.

Oh, the cardinal tetra with the spot? It's still in Q/T, but it's doing great! No new spots or anything that indicates an illness. I also didn't do a wc in the tank like I had planned so I'm not sure if it's safe to move the cardinal back to the main tank or not. I feel badly for the poor cardinal all alone in a 10g tank that's sitting on the floor with only a few silk plants. I almost never turn the light on, and when I do, it really stresses him. Any ideas of whether I should move him back to the 75g yet?


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## Complexity

Rocks! Rocks! And more rocks! :biggrin:

Okay, here's the rocks I finally decided to try. I think they're granite, but don't know. Anyone have any idea?

The rocks do have a pinkish/reddish tone to them, but for some reason, my camera really made them come out very red. They aren't that red in person. More of a tannish/pink color.

Oh, and don't freak out about the bathtub. I cleaned it out very thoroughly before putting the rocks in, including doing a thorough rinse with vinegar to ensure all soap residue was gone. Plus, I've washed the rocks much more after their first tub soaking. This was only to get the first round of dirt off and out of the cracks.

Okay, here's the pictures! More pictures than anyone could ever dream of for rocks! :hihi: Tell me what you think (good and bad). The largest rock which I show at the end is 13 lbs. These rocks are very heavy!


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## Church

Wow, good pictures! They look very granite-esque to me too. Hopefully they work out, because they are beautiful!


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## MikeS

Have agree there, beautiful rocks.


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## Complexity

Thanks! :smile: It was hard to see what they really looked like when they were covered in dirt, but I'm really liking the color with the black speckles mixed in. They're also not overly smooth like river rocks while also not being so sharp that they'll cut anything.

I finally tried the stone yard off of 90, towards Richmond (for those in my area). At first, things went really bad. They said they didn't know anything about mineral content of any of their rocks, and told me they weren't cleaned in any way.

After talking to 5 different people there, I finally got through to one that I want rocks that won't dissolve in the water which she finally started discussing with me which rocks weather better than others. That led me to go ahead with these rocks. She did say something about these being granite, but would not guarantee it. So I decided I'd try them out anyway.

The whole lot of rocks is 40 lbs which cost me a grand total of $6! I got such a good deal because once we broke through the communication barrier, the guy helping me get the rocks was really nice. He couldn't find the price for the rocks so he marked them as the cheapest rocks they had (19¢ a lb). I made out like a bandit! :hihi:

I've been working on how to place them in the tank. Ingg gave me a diagram that's very helpful. But I still find it amazing that I'm turning each rock every which way to figure out how I want them placed. And then I'm having to raise the height of some by adding rocks underneath (I'll attach them with waterfall foam).

Who would have ever thought rocks would be such a big deal? :icon_lol:


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## BiscuitSlayer

It's been a while since you updated the thread Vicki. Anything new going on?


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## Complexity

Not a whole lot. I've removed all of the hornwort since it was completely taking over. With that gone, I discovered that the BBA is spreading. So I've removed all java ferns to be treated outside of the tank. That doesn't leave much as far as plants.

I'm hoping to rip everything out tomorrow, add some more substrate, and then begin a true aquascape. I've had to put this off because of my cut finger, but I think it's closed up enough to go ahead now. I also have some new snails in there that were supposed to be nerites, but they're just hiding. I can't find them. Some others of the same kind I have just hide all the time so I'm sure the snails are hiding somewhere in the 75g. So I want to rip everything out to try to find those snails and get them back out. Thankfully, I was planning to rip everything out anyway so this just adds to the motivation to get it done now.

I lost the first batch of Pelvicachromis fry which didn't surprise me. The parents are at it again! The female has taken over a coconut shell and has piled up a bunch of gravel in front of the opening so she can just barely squeeze in and out. It's a bit frustrating, actually, because where she is is where I need to add more depth to the substrate. She's also in the way of where I wanted to put some rocks. So I'll have to just work around her for now.

I've been getting some basic green algae in the tank, mostly on the back glass and tubing. While the 6 weird snails aren't doing anything, I also got 6 zebra nerites that have already started cleaning it all up. Very nice to have them! They're very pretty, too.

I'm hoping tomorrow will be the big day of finally getting a scape going. If all goes well, I'll try to grab some pictures before lights out. Wish me luck that all goes well tomorrow! :smile:


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## dewalltheway

Hope everything goes well. I cut my finger a couple months ago and had to keep my hand out of the tank too so I know what you are going thru. I am sure that you will create a masterpiece. Just take your time and enjoy and it will come together. Look forward to seeing pics. Make sure you do a before and after. Good Luck!


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## Complexity

Thanks! Well, the before pics are not possible now. I've been adding and yanking plants as needed for whatever reason. But what I had was never anything to consider a real "before". It was more of what I'd call "try to keep the plants alive, not kill the fish, and get rid of the algae" design. 

Even once I do get it scaped, it's going to look pretty sad because I've had plants in low light tanks just to hold them while I'm messing with all of this. If I had planted them right away, they'd look nice by now. Instead, they're half ruined. But when I realized the BBA had spread so much, I was afraid to put them in the tank until I could get the worst of the BBA out.

There is a silver lining to this. Whatever I do, it will only get better since I'm starting out so low! :icon_lol:


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## Complexity

Finally! I'm starting on my new scape! I have a number of pictures taken, and the scape isn't even done yet!

First, I want to start off with the before pics. These aren't truly "before" pics because I had already removed all Java Ferns (the big gaps is where they were) and I had also removed the hornwort. But this gives some idea of the jumbled mess I've had.

The plant that is growing wild is Hygro angustifolia. That stuff grows like crazy! It also puts out one massive root system along the branches. I had that in the tank to help compete with algae.


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## Complexity

I am more of a fish person and am completely design challenged. Ingg was nice enough to come up with a design for my tank which I really love!










I showed Ingg a picture of my rocks because I didn't even know what to do with them. He was very helpful in giving me this idea.










Thank you so much, Ingg! :smile:


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## Complexity

Something that really hurt was removing the Fissidens. It had grown beautifully on the driftwood, but it was full of BBA. I had to rip this off and throw it away. I hope to put some more back on when I'm positive all BBA is eradicated from the tank.


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## Complexity

I figured out how to work in my tank while still keeping my cut clean. I taped a glove onto that hand! It worked very well! :biggrin:


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## Complexity

This is where I'm at right now! It's very bare with only a couple of plants in. Mostly, this shows the rock placement. You'll also see a lot of clay pots painted black. These will be hidden by plants. They're there for my Pelvicachromis. They love caves with clay pots being a favorite. Obviously, I didn't want a bunch of orange pots strewn about in the tank so I used Krylon Fusion to paint them black.

Part of what I did that can't really be seen is that I had to completely remove the wood so I could treat the BBA with H2O2. I also had to remove the thread that had held the Fissidens. I'll have to start that all over again later.

I also added 2 more bags of Eco Complete substrate. I've had these bags around forever it seems, but adding Eco Complete to an active tank while the fish and inverts are still in the tank is very difficult. As it is, I tried very hard to gently scoop up the new Eco Complete to place in the tank, but no matter how gently I did it, it still stirred up a huge amount of dust (or whatever that stuff is). It got so bad that I couldn't even see what I was doing in the tank.

I had the water down to about 25% when I added the extra substrate. So once I added it and smoothed it around somewhat, I used my python to remove the water down to about 15%. Then I refilled the tank with fresh water and turned on my filters. I have intentionally not cleaned the glass, filters or fixtures to help maintain a good amount of bacteria while making such a huge change. The filters cleaned the water up in no time! It would have made for a good commercial, they did such a great job.

Then it was time to fiddle more with the substrate and add the rocks and caves. I planted the plant I got from Ingg (have to look up its name). You can't really see it, but it's behind the large rocks on the far right side. I also panted Ken's lotus. It's in the rock grouping on the right side, kind of in the middle of the group. Both plants have suffered greatly because they've been in a holding tank all this time since I had to delay the scaping since I cut my finger. I'm pretty sure Ingg's plant will recover, but I'm not sure about the lotus from Ken. I can only wait and see.

I have pictures where the Pelvicachromis were checking out the pots. It's funny because the female 'Kienke' literally checked out each pot with her mate following along. It reminded me of a couple house shopping! :icon_lol: I have some pictures of my fish and inverts that I'll post a little later.


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## MikeS

Looks good so far. Can't wait to see it with plants. Also really like the torpedo barbs.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Mike! I'm about to put my glove on so I can start adding some plants back in. I'm going to have a problem with some plants because I got them as extras from the SNS, but I don't have an ID on them. Plus, I'm so design challenged, I'll need help with where to put them. For now, I can plant the Blyxa and Crypts.


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## MikeS

I'll be watching. I have this week off, so plenty of time to watch and get ideas. 

I can also count on you posting pics, unlike some people (Ken) here :hihi:


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## Complexity

Pics? Moi? I'm notoriously bad posting pics. I just type a lot. :hihi:

Well, I've managed to spend an hour and a half getting the Blyxa ready and getting a piece of gravel unstuck from my garbage disposal.

I'm not exactly sure where to put the Blyxa, but I'll try my best. I figure it can always be moved later.

Taking a break for my back (ouch), and then I'll be planting the Blyxa.


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## Karackle

Hey there, I just caught up with your thread here (I haven't read all the way back yet, have read the last few days worth) and I just wanted to say that I think your tank looked great and i think you have more of an eye for design thanyou give yourself credit for! I can't wait to see how the new scape turns out, and I'll be waiting for pictures! That all being said, I know exactly what you mean about it feeling like you've got "keep the plants alive and don't kill the fish" scape as opposed to a real one happening, I feel that way too!!! :hihi: but I do think the tank looked beautiful and I'm sure the new scape will be even better! And your pictures are amazing! I'll be keeping an eye on this thread now that i've found it!


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## fishbguy1

Complexity said:


> Well, I've managed to spend an hour and a half getting the Blyxa ready and getting a piece of gravel unstuck from my garbage disposal.


Been there, done that  

I would deffaintly put some blyxa around the 3 big rocks on the right hand side of the tank. Around them, and in front. Just make a big stand of the around that. Depending on where your gonna put plants around the drift wood, it might be wise to put some blyxas there as well...

I just like the look of blyxa when it 'wraps' aroung things, wether it be driftwood or rocks. In my 29 I have blyxa around my driftwood:thumbsup:


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## Complexity

I have the Blyxa planted! I have so much of that stuff, it's not even funny. And all of that was an EXTRA on a plant deal in the SNS! It should grow taller, but hopefully not too fast. It's been through a lot since I've been messing with my plants and all, but once I get the scape done, we'll see how it does.

I'm trying to not hide the rocks too much with it. If it becomes a problem, I can tear some out. I'm also trying to give a little depth with having it placed around the rocks and driftwood. Taller plants will be in back with shorter plants in front.

Notice also how well the black clay pots are being hidden. Once the Blyxa grows a little, no one will know they're there!

Feel free to critique my design, good and bad. I may not change it now, but it will be good to consider for later since I will have to move this tank in a month or two.

Full tank shot:










Blyxa detail:


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## Complexity

Karackle, thanks so much for the encouraging words! I have so many plants in so many places that need to be planted, it's not even funny. I don't know what most of them are. I really want to integrate some color into the design which the rocks are doing somewhat. I hadn't wanted that particular color (pinkish), but it's what I could find and I like the structure of the rocks themselves.

fishbguy1, what can I say? I read your mind! :hihi:

I just started planting pretty much as Ingg designed it, but he couldn't possibly account for the actual dimensions of the rocks. So even with taking out one of the large rocks, they're closer together than I had first thought. So I decided to use the Blyxa to go inbetween and around things to give some unity without being overly symmetrical. I never have straight lines in any of my regular gardening, and the rocks and driftwood just seemed to tell me to plant the blyxa that way.

I just hope it doesn't get so tall that it hides the rocks. I've seen that happen with a lot of scapes. You get driftwood and rocks, and then the plants hide it all.

I'm also seeing that I'm gong to need to move the bottom spray bar on the left side. Ingg suggested I let the "V" in the driftwood be the opening for no plants, but that spray bar destroys it. Oh, well, I'll figure out what to do with the second output on that side. Maybe match it with one on the right. I like the flexible output. I move it to various places for my needs. Right now, I have it pushing plant debris out of that corner.


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## ingg

Spray bar doesn't destroy it. Looks good! You can always hide it with some java fern or anubias at the base of the wood - you'll want something like this eventually anyway to break up the hard line as it comes down into the scape, and either'd be tall enough that it'll hide that bar. Planting long, thin, vertical plants, maybe c. spiralis or something, in that space is another thought, keep the lines, fill the space..

Plant from me was Pogostemon Stellata.

Consider moving that big rock rear left further up towards to front. A common way to make illusion of depth, I've been taught, is to leave yourself just enough room for a thin foreground and a midground, then place the rock - much further towards the front of the tank than most folks think (at least a lot further to the front than I had ever thought to do). Gives you lots of background to work with, and you can hide a pot behind it then, too. 


Psst. Trick for BBA - fill a small spray bottle with Excel. Remove the plant, spritz it with the Excel spray bottle, right back into the tank.... dead BBA. Works great for java ferns, haven't yet tried it on mosses tho.


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## Complexity

Hmmm... I'll try to move the rock forward, but there's not much more room. I'll have to change the angle of the rock that's in front of it because it's almost touching the glass. Then the large rock is about 1" behind it.

Let me see what I can do. I have to get ready to leave in a bit so no more planting until this evening. I did get my crypt wendtii 'bronze' moved from my 20g to this tank. It's pretty much where you suggested, but the right side is a bit squished against the glass. Yet another reason for moving that other rock.

In a way I'm glad you can't see what's become of your beautiful Pogostemon Stellata. I hadn't intended to leave it floating in my holding tank for so long, but cutting my finger screwed up my plans. At least it's still alive so I know it'll grow fine in the long run. But the green growth really hurts after seeing how beautifully you grew it.

Nothing like learning! I've come a long way since I began. You're one of the few who really know just how far I've come by now! :smile:


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## Complexity

I recently got 6 Zebra Nerite snails which I put in my 75g tank. They arrived last Friday so I've had them for less than a week.

Amazingly, they have really done a fantastic job on cleaning up the algae! I had a lot of basic green algae (GDA?) on the back wall of my tank. I cleaned it off the front each day, but I couldn't really get it off the back with so many obsticles in the way. So I figured why not see what Nerite snails can do. Some are really pretty, and they won't become a nuisence since they can't breed in a FW tank.

Wow, but wow, am I surprised! In less than a week, they have cleaned up almost all the algae in the entire tank! I didn't even realize it at first. I just noticed that my tank looked really clean, but I thought that was probably because I had done a large water change earlier when I had to clean out the cloudiness from the added eco complete.

But then I noticed that the flexible output hose was clean! That was covered in green algae. If you look at the first picture in post 184, you can even see the green algae on it. Now that is almost 100% clean! I think the only places they missed were places that they couldn't reach because of the way the hose was bent.

I was asked to show some pics of my snails so here are a couple I took earlier in the week. They're not great pics, but you get the idea.

Also notice the algae on the wall and their track marks of where they had already started cleaning it. Who would have thought they'd do such a good job so quickly?

Next, I want to move one into my 20L with dwarf loaches and spot algae. I'd like to make sure the loaches are too small to harm the snails, and I'd love to know what they'll do with spot algae.

Here are pictures of two of the snails I have. These are Zebra Nerite snails.


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## Karackle

Very cool! Sounds like they surely are doing a great job! And they're nice to look at! Awesome!!!


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## lauraleellbp

Nice work, Vicki! :biggrin: 

I'm not too sure about the really big rock in the far right corner, but once the plants fill in it shouldn't be quite so prominent. Right now I think it distracts from the wood, which IMO you did a great job with! :wink:


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## Chrisinator

Awesome set-up already!


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## MikeS

Those snails look cool. I am glad to hear they are doing their job. Even if I dumped all mine in my 210, everyone would be eaten before they do much work.


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## TheCryptKeeper

MikeS said:


> I'll be watching. I have this week off, so plenty of time to watch and get ideas.
> 
> I can also count on you posting pics, unlike some people (Ken) here :hihi:


wow.. sucker punched from behind!:help: 

the tank looks great Vicki.. can't wait to see it filled in!


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## Complexity

Thanks everyone! :smile:

LL, I hear your concern over the large rock on the right side. I've moved it over a little which I think looks a bit better, but there's no doubt it is very prominent. I even added some rocks on the bottom to lift it up taller so it would offer some height variation from the other rocks (some of which I buried deeper into the substrate to add to the height variation).

I think the rock won't be anywhere near as prominent once I add plants in front of it. In fact, the reason I got such large rocks is because I've seen too many scapes where people add beautiful rocks that get covered up with plants to the point you can't see them. So I wanted to be sure mine were large enough to not get swallowed by plants.

I'm also putting plants in between the rocks to offer greater separation between them. If it turns out the rocks continue to be too prominent, I can always push them deeper into the substrate. Right now, they're mostly just sitting on top of it.

Hey, Ken, you know you love it! :hihi:

Now that I have most of my plants identified (this thread), I came up with a basic idea of where I want to put them. I have no imagination, but I can use Photoshop well enough to play with a design that way. I'll try to post that in a little bit. For now, I'm actually planting the plants which feels great!


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## MikeS

Never thought of using photoshop, not that I am good at it, but that is an awesome idea.


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## Complexity

I'm not that great at it either, but it's the best I can do. I couldn't envision a design in my head if my life depended on it. But I can cut and paste things in photoshop.


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## cah925

Those caves are great! Stategically placed so plants will hide them for the most part. Where did you find those? Did you paint them black?

Can't wait to see more as this grows out.


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## Complexity

Yup, I painted them black. They are your regular terra cotta clay pots that I cut out various sized and shaped openings and then painted using Krylon Fusion.

You're right on target with my plan of using plants to hide them. I want them where I can see them since I know where they are so I can see the Pelvicachromis going in and out, but I don't want them to disrupt the overall scape view. I figured the black color would offer the best compromise to do that.


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## MikeS

Great idea. Somehow I missed the caves before. Guess Ken was right on me needing help.


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## Complexity

Okay, here's my not the greatest photoshop idea of my scape. Of course, as with all plans, things will change as I go along, but at least I have some plan at the moment.

Keep in mind this does not have all plants figured out, such as the plants in front and the carpet (I think I'll use HC), but it mainly is the placement of the plants I currently have; although, the ones I have are pitifully small clippings. Still, I _have_ the clippings so it's a start.

All plant names are coming from this thread. Some may be a little off, but I think they're close enough.










1. Lysimachia nummularia (Creeping Jenny)
2. Cryptocoryne balansae
3. Rotala rotundafolia
4. Rotala vietnam
5. Ludwigia glandulosa
6. Hygrophila polysperma 'sunset'
7. Vallisneria contortionist
8. Pogostemon stellata
9. Blyxa Japonica
10. Red Tiger Lotus
11. Cryptocoryne wendtii 'bronze'

I still have a LOT of Crypt 'lucens' to figure out where to put. Some either very straight vals or large sag (not sure which) and a lot of different kinds of Bacopa. I may put some of those in my 20L tank when I switch it to the 29g.

I'm having a bit of trouble figuring where to put the crypt lucens in conjunction with the crypt wendtii. I'm not sure which will grow taller. I have the wendtii in the three places marked with the red 11s, but they don't seem to show up as much as I had hoped. I've also read that they usually grow lower to the ground when in high light. So I may move them forward more and put the c. lucens in their place. Still debating on all of that.

But at least I have the background plants somewhat figured out for a start. The Val contortionist is placed in the middle of the three rocks on the far right. The lotus is in the middle of the next opening between the rocks.

Okay, so that's the current plan! I'm open to suggestions and ideas, positive and negative (constructive). This is my first attempt at a scape so I really have no idea what I'm doing!


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## Complexity

MikeS said:


> Great idea. Somehow I missed the caves before. Guess Ken was right on me needing help.


Actually, that's a big compliment to me (that you missed the caves). You were _supposed_ to miss the caves! This means my goal is working. :smile:

But that doesn't mean you don't need help. The only question is whether you need it as much as Ken! :icon_lol:


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## MikeS

That photoshop pic is cool. Looks like I have to will have to learn how to use photoshop.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Mike! This really isn't very good photoshop work, but it serves its purpose. You can probably do the same thing with any photo editing program. I just found pictures of the various plants cut them out of their backgrounds, duplicated them when needed to make them look bushier and sized them to fit in the pic. The colors are way off, and even most of the plants aren't very good representations of the real thing (one plant is copied from a plastic plant!). But, still, it's the only way I can visual things. This let me move stuff around until I got a mix I liked.

And even after I came up with this, I had to refer back to it when I started planting the plants. I couldn't remember what went where.

Some of the trimmings I planted may not make it since I had let them go too long without proper care. So I may have to buy some replacements in the SNS. But at least I have some idea of what I'm going to do now.


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## Karackle

cool use of photoshop! And I really like the arrangement you came up with! I can't wait to see the real version :biggrin:


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## cah925

Karackle said:


> cool use of photoshop! And I really like the arrangement you came up with! I can't wait to see the real version :biggrin:


Ditto.


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## ingg

You have viet nam, I am pretty sure it isn't najenshan. Only other possibility would be possibly some wallichii grown under some odd coditions, but I doubt it.  viet nam and wallichii both have needle leaves. Najenshen has some thickness to the leaves, trend to have a greener stem, and doesn't color up that way - it blushes, but not like what you pictured in your ID thread.


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## Complexity

Thank you! I can't wait either! I have the plants planted and I'm beginning to see the first signs of them perking up and growing which is great since they've only been planted for a couple of days. But most of the plants I have are itsy, bitsy pieces which will take quite a bit of time to grow into anything I can even see. But then thats part of the fun!

I decided to put the dwarf sag in my 20L since I already have the two long, upright plants in my 75g. Now I just have to figure out what to do with the different bacopas and the crype lucens. I think I'm going to simply plants them the best I can, knowing that as things grow, I'll get a better idea of what to put where.


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## Complexity

ingg said:


> You have viet nam, I am pretty sure it isn't najenshan. Only other possibility would be possibly some wallichii grown under some odd coditions, but I doubt it.  viet nam and wallichii both have needle leaves. Najenshen has some thickness to the leaves, trend to have a greener stem, and doesn't color up that way - it blushes, but not like what you pictured in your ID thread.


Yeah, I reached that conclusion, as well. Someone on APC clued me in on the stem colors, and the more I compared pictures between the two, the more clear it was that I have the vietnam species. So that's what I've named it now.

I just updated my plant ID thread with the final names that I believe are correct. I have it listed as vietnam now.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/72017-please-help-id-these-plants-several.html


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## lauraleellbp

Hey Vicki, what about an update?


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## Karackle

I agree, any updates?! :biggrin:


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## Complexity

I am way overdue for an update! Of course, many of you know why. I'll just make a quick note so my journal isn't missing important events in my tank.

I was trying very hard to get the new plants to take root and grow when Hurricane Ike hit. No power for a week. Canister filters lost all beneficial bacteria, requiring that I do a thorough cleaning before starting them back up. Lost one torpedo barb and my apisto was so sick, I euthanized him. No more apistos for me. My water just cannot keep them truly healthy.

I had hoped that this would at the very least kill out the BBA. Nope. As soon as the lights came back on, the BBA came back with a vengance! I noticed it had begun to spread everywhere in the tank, on the plants, the filtering pipes, the rocks and even the substrate! I bleached what I could (rocks, pipes), bumped up the CO2 another notch, and spot treated with Excel. Ran out of Excel too quickly, but my efforts still paid off since the BBA doesn't appear to be spreading anymore.

I realized that one of the problems I was having in getting my plants to grow is that I needed to give them more light. However, with so little plant mass, I was afraid that would be a recipe for an algae disaster. Fortunately, Tex_Gal saved me by sending me a whole bunch of really nice clippings (some even had roots!). I am soooo thankful for her help.

I quickly planted those plants and they are beginning to take off. I'm keeping my first 2 bulbs on for 12 hours while using the other two bulbs for 5-7 hours. I don't have the second set of bulbs on a timer, but I hope to fix that soon.

So far, it seems the lights, ferts and CO2 are balanced pretty good since I'm getting lots of oxygen bubbles and not having any algae problems YET. I am getting some GDA, but that doesn't bother me as it's pretty much self-limiting. Plus, once the plants grow in, they'll shade some of the areas where the GDA is growing. Also, the fish seem to enjoy snacking on it a little. The amanos love it!

I took some pictures of the tank earlier which I never posted so I'll see if I can get them online tonight. It's amazing to me to see the changes in the tank!


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## Badcopnofishtank

Im glad your on the rebound. I noticed somewhere in your last post you mentioned a photo period of 12 hours? Even if it is not full intensity that could be part of your problem as far as algae is concerned. You may want to consider less light, say 8-9 hours to avoid it. I run a photo period of 6-7 hrs and have pretty good luck with a very high light tank.


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## rich815

Badcopnofishtank said:


> Im glad your on the rebound. I noticed somewhere in your last post you mentioned a photo period of 12 hours? Even if it is not full intensity that could be part of your problem as far as algae is concerned. You may want to consider less light, say 8-9 hours to avoid it. I run a photo period of 6-7 hrs and have pretty good luck with a very high light tank.


+1. I was going to say almost the exact same thing. Until I finally brought my photoperiod down to 8 hours from 10-12, GSA was an issue especially on plants near the lights.


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## Karackle

i'm glad to hear your tank is on the rebound too! As for the BBA, not much advice to give other than what you're already doing, excel dosing has done the trick for me in the past, and it sounds like it worked for you until you ran out. Good luck with that battle! 

But where're those pictures?! :hihi:


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## Complexity

Pictures coming! I'll get them posted today. :smile:

I know the photo period is too long, but if all it's doing is causing the GDA, then I'm okay with that. I am mainly looking at how it's affecting the plants, and they are doing very well. I'm sure I'll be cutting back the photo period soon. I also think part of what's working to let me have the long photo period is that my first set of 2 bulbs are older so you know they're putting out less light than new ones. Still, I'm tempting fate so I'll probably have to bring it down very soon.

The BBA is what's driving me nuts. I'm seriously thinking that when I move my tank, I will nuke the tank with H2O2 since I won't have any fish or inverts in there. I have enough spare tanks to keep the fish away for a short while which may be my best chance of really killing out the BBA. If I lose some plants in the process, that's life. I have to get rid of this BBA. I really hate it!

Pictures coming in an hour or so!


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## Complexity

New pics! These were taken on Sept 24, a few days after I got the tank cleaned up from the hurricane Ike power outage.

Just before hurricane Ike hit, I bought a new red tiger lotus. It turned out to be much larger than I realized! I was going to plant it around the rocks on the right side, but because of its size, the only place it really could fit was was the driftwood.

While the power was out, the lotus was uprooted and just floated around. I couldn't see much of anything because it was so dark so I just left it that way until the power came back on.

In these pictures, I have it held down with rocks and have some of the leaf stems loosely held to the driftwood with non-lead strips. This is because I'm planing it on top of a piece of slate so the roots aren't planted deep at all and because this is my pleco's home. When I move my tank, I want to mound up the substrate to bury the roots, and then I can probably trim off the large leaves that are being held to the driftwood. I don't want the leaves to be quite so tall which I've read can be controlled with root pruning.

You can also see the GDA. I honestly don't mind it. The BBA doesn't show up in the pictures, but it's definitely there.


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## Karackle

Tank looks great Vicki! I'd never know it just survived a 1 week power outtage! It looks like it's filling in nicely despite Ike! Good work! I can't wait to see how it continues to progress!  

When is the big move? How much time do you have to nurse it back to health before moving it?

*edit* 

Forgot to mention, the photos are beautiful too!


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## CL

That tank really is great. I love how dark the blacks are, nice contrast


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## mott

Vicki, looks great! loving the redness of the tiger lotus. I can't keep the gda off of my rocks either but I don't mind it gives the rocks a "natural" look


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## Complexity

Thanks! The tank was extremely clean in those photos since I had just cleaned it up from the power outage. I now have many more plants for the background to fill in so the plant mass is picking up enough to handle all the light, CO2 and ferts. Once they all grow in, it's going to be a jungle!

Karackle, the move is in less than a month. My last date at the apartment is Nov 1. That falls on a Saturday so I'll probably move the tank at some time the week before.

I have enough extra tanks to house all the fish from my 75g so I won't have to rush the actual move itself. If it takes a few hours, then that's fine. The fish will be in other tanks with filters and all.

This is when I think I'll do the H2O2 treatment. When I pull out all my fish and inverts, I'll hit the tank hard with H2O2. I'll keep hitting it until the BBA is killed out. If I lose plants, so be it.

Then I can move my fish back into the tank, slowly. I still need to check the water to be sure it's the same, but if it's not, then I'll need to carry over some water to not shock the fish.

So I have around 3 weeks left to nurse it back to health, then I'll hit the BBA hard with H2O2, and then it'll be time to nurse it all back to health again. After that, I'm all set!


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## Complexity

mott said:


> Vicki, looks great! loving the redness of the tiger lotus. I can't keep the gda off of my rocks either but I don't mind it gives the rocks a "natural" look


Ditto on the DGA. Plus, I can get it off the rocks very easily. I bleached the rocks when the BBA started growing on them, and the GDA disappeared completely. So once I get the tank stable, I can get rid of the GDA if I want, but I may not. I do like how it tones down the too-pink rocks.

I have some more pictures I'll post in a little bit. If you like that red, wait until you see the new growth on my tiger lotus. It's BRIGHT! I'm loving it! The color is so striking, it truly makes my focal point in the tank!


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## Karackle

Sounds like a good plan! Sounds like you'll have just enough time to get everything healthy and hearty again before the move, and it's great that you have enough tanks to house the fish comfortably so you don't have to rush the move, I'm sure that will definitely help! and then nuke the sucker with h2o2 and beat that bba!


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## Complexity

A few more pics. I took these yesterday. No full tank shots, but a few special shots of plants with bubbles and the new red tiger lotus growth.

Look at how red the new growth is! I adore this color! It really stands out from a distance, too. I can't wait until I get enough growth to cut off the old leaves so the new ones stand out better.




























Sorry for the terrible blur in these pictures; my camera did not want to focus right.

I took these pictures mainly to show the bubbles I'm getting in my tank! This is a picture of a val. The leaf is in bad shape thanks to the power outage and the Excel. Still, it's definitely growing so I'll be able to remove the damaged leaves in time.

So many bubbles all over the vals!










This is my Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' that I received from Tex-Gal. It's really taking off already! Not only is it growing nicely, but look at all the bubbles on the leaves!

The blue looking thing in the background is a piece of eheim tubing that I plan to replace with either black tubing or some kind of black hardware that I can find to fit. Just ignore that thing for now.

BTW, if you go back up to the first picture in this post, you can see this plant just beginning to peak up above the rock on the far left side. There are more stems that you can't see yet, but at the rate they're growing, they should be filling in very soon!


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## CL

Congrats on the pearling lol. Glad your tank is on the fast track to recovery


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## Karackle

Wow Vicki! That lotus is a beautiful red color! What spectrum/K-rating are your bulbs that your reds stand out so well? I brought home a red crypt from my LFS that was a really nice deep red in their tank, and far less so in mine, I'd love to know what k value might bring the reds out like in your tank!  And what kind of crypt (I think that's what it is) is that growing in front of the lotus? I love how low it grows to the ground!


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## Complexity

The lighting I'm using is a 4X54w TEK fixture. I have two Giesemann 11000K Aquablue Plus lamps and two 6000K Midday Sun lamps. I have them setup so one of each is on different circuits so they are always combined when I run 2 lamps or all 4 lamps.

I honestly think what's doing it is the bright light. I had been inconsistent with my ferts, but after the power outage, I've been like clockwork with them. Plus, the CO2 is up as far as my fish can handle it.

So the plants now have tons of light, lots of ferts, and high CO2. All of my plants are doing better. But I never dreamed I'd get such a beautiful red on my tiger lotus. I thought the original leaves were really red, but wow, the new leaves are like a deep hot pink color!

You're right about the plant in front of the lotus being a crypt. It's one of the first live plants I ever tried, and it's been a real gem. It's a Crypt wendtii 'bronze'. I harvested it from my current 20L. If you click the link in my sig line for my 29g tank, you'll see where I got it.

It seems to grow taller in lower light tanks, but remain more compact in high light tanks. I read about this after I had moved some to my 75g, and so far, it seems to be true. I have some more a little further back that's too low so I'll have to move it forward. I think it'll make a nice contrast with my Marsilea minuta ground cover. Nice bright green against the bronze crypt.

BTW, this particular crypt is an extremely hardy plant. Incredible for beginners. Obviously, grows in med low light and high light. I've had better luck with it than the old standbys, like java fern and anubias!


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## Karackle

Cool, thanks! I have lots of wendtii, but they grow a lot taller, my tanks are low light though so I bet you're right about that making the difference. Ah well, no ground cover crypt for me i guess. :tongue: But i DEFINITELY agree about it being hardy plant! They were the first things I got really good growth from too, i had to pull my Java fern it was doing so poorly! Well anyway, it looks great growing low to the ground too!


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## skoorbza

Complexity,
What an incredible job you've done! You could have just slapped things together, since you'll be moving soon, but you've created another beautiful space. I'm so glad that you've been able to recover so well!


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## @[email protected]

wow, the tank is really starting to look nice. and that lotus is amazing.


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## octopus44

I love this layout. It reminds me of a set from a seventies Science Fiction movie .


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## Complexity

Thank you! I can't take credit for the layout as it's Ingg's idea. I'm beginning to alter it slightly, but not much. When I first saw his idea, I knew it would look great. I can't wait until the background plants finally grow up so you can see them above the rocks.

skoorbza, I very specifically wanted to get a scape done before I moved so I could gain some experience. That way, if I needed to adjust anything, I could when I moved. I'm hoping I won't have to rip out all my plants when I move, but I don't know. It's probably too heavy to move safely unless I tear it all apart.

octopus44, do I dare ask which movie? :icon_lol:

I have some pictures of the fish that I'll post later. I actually got some nice shots of my Pelvicachromis!


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## @[email protected]

for most tanks, i would think that it would be enough to just drain the water and cover the top with cellophane with a hole or two (so the plants can breath, but they humidity is high and they dont dry out). but im not sure with a 75 gallon tank. the substrate would be pretty heavy...


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## Tex Gal

Your tank is really looking nice! I love the lilly in front of the DW. It almost looks like a bloom from the DW. It all looks nice! ... and I don't see ANY algae!


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## Complexity

The lotus is actually planted smack dab in the middle of the driftwood. It's not even in the substrate. I'm using black river rocks to hold it in place. Eventually, the roots will shoot out sideways beyond the slate tile holding the driftwood. It's probably grown beyond it by now.

I bought this out of the guy's show tank. It was actually planted with roots shooting out 10" in all directions. They weren't deep, but very long. So I used that as the basis for how I planted it in my tank. Obviously, it seems happy.

You can see the GDA in the pics, but it blends in so it's not visually disturbing. I've managed to keep the BBA very small. It's growing to about 1/4" in some places, but for other places I have to actually use a jeweler's loupe to see it. That's how I discovered it was growing on the substrate. It was tiny, but it was definitely BBA.

The green crypt on the front left (my left as I face the tank) is the main carrier right now. I'm seeing it on some of my stems in the back, but that doesn't bother me as much because I know they'll grow and I'll be trimming that off. It was when it started growing everywhere that was a big problem. Raising the CO2 up one more tiny notch and using Excel fought it back. I need to get more Excel so I can continue the treatment. But since I'm going to be moving the tank, I still want to treat it with H2O2 in an attempt to completely eradicate it from the entire tank.


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## Chrisinator

Your lotus is phenomenol. The different colors makes it an effective centerpiece plants.


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## MikeP_123

If it has little lotus babies you have to send me em. The color is amazing!


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## MikeP_123

also... what color are the lights you are using?


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## Complexity

Chrisinator, thanks! I originally hadn't planned on putting it inside the driftwood cluster, but it was so eye-catching, it really disrupted the focal point balance. So I decided to try it with the driftwood. It's turning out far better than I ever dreamed.

I'm going to keep the old leaves on it until after I move. I'm using them to help keep the plant in place while it gets rooted since it's right below my pleco's favorite spot. Everything else I planted even close to that got ripped up so I have to get creative to keep it in place.

Mike, it already has a baby! I haven't removed it yet. I'm letting it grow right beside the mama lotus. I'm sure I'll have babies for the SNS one day soon. However, I will not sell anything in the SNS until I totally eradicate all the BBA.

I really don't think this lotus is any different from any other. I think it's the lighting (and ferts and CO2).

The great part is that the color really is as pictured. Actually, it's a bit more vibrant in real life, but the color in the pics is true to life.


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## Complexity

I took some quick pics showing the BBA. It's not real long, but you can see that it's getting all over the tank. While I can spot treat, I really think nuking the entire tank while the fish are out is a better option. I want to get rid of all the BBA in all areas all at once. I can't do that with spot treating.

Sorry the pics are so bad. My camera won't focus on something as small as a leaf from far away, and my vision isn't very good for manual focusing. So the shots aren't so great. But they show the BBA.

In the first two pics, it's on the Crypt and is getting worse. I treated this with Excel a week ago. It knocked it back, but when I stopped the Excel, it came right back.



















Even the new Marsilea minuta that I just planted is becoming infected with it. The Marselia is just now taking root, and it's already getting BBA.










One of my Pelvicachromis' caves. I'd bleach it, but it's being used right now. So I'll take care of this when I move the tank.










The BBA may not show up in full tank shots, it's definitely there and a problem. If I don't get this stuff out, it'll destroy my entire tank. I think moving creates an opportunity to nuke the tank without fish or inverts, and I think I'll go ahead and do it. I'd really love to get every tiny bit of the BBA out of there.


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## Visseroth

The only way I kept that junk under control in the past is by scrubbing the sides of the tank really well, pulling all un-living things out of the tank and putting them through the dish washer and picking all leaves off that started to grow the stuff on them.

It was a disaster at first but the plants came back with a bang and then I just continued to pick leaves off if they started to show signs of the junk growing on them.

It worked for quite some time and then I upgraded to a bigger better tank....
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...aded-46g-bow-210g-framed-wall.html#post699583

and did not Xfer any of the plants or items from the old tank to the new one to avoid Xfering the junk.

The fish didn't like the Xfer either as they got about 7 to 10 baths into different buckets before they made it to the new tank.


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## Complexity

Yeah, I'm beginning to think that I will start out by moving the fish to my other tanks and then hitting the tank with several H2O2 treatments, maybe one a day for a few days. Then move the tank to my house and clean all hardscaping, clean out the filters, and start over again.

It's my fault for allowing the BBA in my tank. I actually bought plants knowing they had BBA. I thought the BBA would be easy to control. But after a 2 minute soak of 1:20 bleach, the BBA survived and infected everything in my tank. Never again.

I want to spend my days enjoying my tank, not looking for signs of how much the BBA has spread.


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## Complexity

I just spot treated the BBA using H2O2. I hope I haven't killed anything in the process.

I just couldn't stand seeing the BBA continue to spread so I raised the CO2 one more notch. Then I decided to try something with H202.

I got a turkey baster that I use specifically for aquariums only, filled it with 3% H2O2 (about 1.5oz) and squirted it in two places. I also tried a medicine dropper to squirt 5ml in another spot. My lights and filters were off.

I let that sit for 5-10 minutes. Then I turned the lights and filters back on. There are bubbles everywhere!

I know the fish and amanos got in the areas I treated. They didn't seem bothered by it, but I don't know if it harmed them. I guess I'll know in a day or two what affect this has had.

I did not do a water change. I can't remember how much people dose when they do a 50% water change afterwards.

I'll report the results as they happen. Wish my fish, amanos and plants luck! And wish the BBA dead.


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## Guest

I usually wait 30 mins or so before I do my water change. I have never seen any harm in plants or fish in that time frame (2ml per gallon is what I used). I did my water change and a few days later no more BBA.


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## Complexity

So 1.5oz x 2 = 3oz.

3oz = 0.088720589 liters.

So that would be 8.8ml? Plus, the other 5ml? So let's say 15ml tops.

In a 75g tank, that's not very high at all. Cool.

What I'm thinking is that I may spot treat like this every day instead of using Excel. It's so much cheaper and I can cover a much larger area with one squirt. It doesn't just get the leaves, but the stems and substrate below which is what I want.

With the low amount I used, should I still do a water change? I'm wondering about losing the ferts I dosed today.


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## Complexity

Wait. That would be 88.5ml, not 8.8ml. So I dosed a little under 95ml which is still under the 2ml per gallon rule.

Alright, doing water change now.


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## Guest

yeah I would do a water change. I rather lose the daily ferts then even taking a risk hurting anything else.


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## Complexity

I did. So far, the only thing that's not looking right is one of my zebra nerites. It was close to one of the areas I treated, and now it's not moving very much. It may have come in direct contact with the H2O2. I hate to say it, but I had forgotten about them. If I do this again, I'll make sure none of them are close to the area I'm treating.


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## Guest

I dont think it will bother them. I had a opps when my niece knocked a bottle in and it was in there for over a hour. I did my water change and didnt see anything wrong just a cleaner tank.


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## Complexity

A whole bottle?! Did you have amanos in the tank?


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## Guest

yeah she said it was a accident she tried to get closer to look and bumped it. no I didnt have amanos in the tank.


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## Complexity

Looks like all is fine so far. Even the snail that wasn't moving seems fine as s/he was doing its favorite activity: two on one. :hihi:

I'm already seeing red fuzz on pieces of my substrate. That really bothers me. I don't like the idea of BBA being on my substrate in addition to everything else.

MOVING! Talked to the guy who I'll have move my tanks, and he confirmed what I expected: I'll have to break the entire tank down. So I'm definitely going to use this as an opportunity to kill out all of the BBA.

I have several smaller tanks that I can use to hold the fish during the move. This allows me much more time to work with the tank without any fish. I'm thinking of first having all my smaller tanks moved to my house and then move the fish over. That way, they'll already be at my house, making it easy for me to move them into the 75g once I get it set back up.

I hate the idea of having to break the entire tank back down, especially after trying to recover from the hurricane. But it's what I have to do.

I may dump all of my substrate and start out fresh. I have the "bad" eco complete with the multi-colored pieces which no matter what I do, keep popping back up to the top even when I try to cover it with "good" black eco complete. Somewhere, someone had a thread on here with a phone number to call about getting a replacement, and if I can find the thread again, I may see if they'll replace it. While I was okay with the multiple colors, I really prefer the all black. But more important, certain colored pieces are more prone to grow the BBA. So it's more than just a cosmetic issue.

I think my biggest concern is keeping the tank cycled in some form while I'm simultaneously cleaning everything to kill out the BBA. I haven't figured out how I'm going to do that yet.

Oh, and I bought 10 SAE's today! I have looked for them everywhere and found them today. I wasn't going to get that many, but by the time I got 7, the 10-for price basically gave me the rest for free. I think I'll put 7 in my 75g tank and the other 3 in my 29g tank. I have them in Q/T for now.


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## Complexity

I've started a thread to get help on how to go about moving the tank, killing the BBA and keeping the tank cycled.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ank-breaking-down-killing-bba.html#post700182


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## Complexity

Oh, boy, will I surprise some people. Given how cautious I usually am regarding my tanks, it is out of my normal character to do what I'm doing. But I feel this is my one and only chance to completely eradicate all BBA and spores from my tank. I'm tired of fighting it. I want it GONE.

So this morning, I started out with a full 150ml treatment of H2O2. I spot treated one side of the tank, using a 5ml syringe. I let that sit for 30 minutes with the lights and filters turned off.

Then I ran the filters and 2 lamps of my lights for 15 minutes. I want the H2O2 to get inside the filters.

Next, I did a 40% water change.

Interesting to note: Today's H2O2 treatment did not produce anywhere near as many bubbles as yesterday. I did this before adding my daily ferts so I'm wondering if that had anything to do with it. I'm also treating the side that I treated yesterday. I hit more areas, but maybe that side was cleaned out by yesterday's treatment more than I thought?

Okay, while the water is at 60% level, I THEN dosed 40ml of Excel, targeting one specific plant. I'm letting that sit for 15 minutes.

My amano shrimp are going nuts. They didn't start this until I added the Excel, but they did behave this way yesterday when I did my water change so I'm hoping it's just due to the water change now. I hope I don't kill them. Everywhere I've looked, there's so little information on whether any of this will harm amanos so I'm working blind here.

Okay, in a few minutes, it'll be time to fill the tank back with water, turn on the filters, and then add the ferts. Today is trace. I also have scheduled to do a "minor" clean on the Eheim which means changing the top filter pad, but I'd prefer to do that after I know the Excel has been well stirred up into the water.

I'll keep posting the results, good or bad.


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## Complexity

Filled back up with water and all the fish and inverts are behaving normally. The torpedo barbs are begging for food. The Pelvicachromis are swimming, hiding, maintaining territories and pecking at the substrate. The amanos stopped going nuts and then landed on a rock with GDA and other similar places. There are a few that aren't foreging which has me concerned. I'll keep an eye on them. And, of course, the snails are being snails. I also want to keep an eye on my pleco since I treated his "home" with H2O2 today.

I hope I'm not killing everything and not just the BBA. I guess I'll find out soon.


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## Karackle

Glad to hear that so far everything seems ok, good luck with the aggressive treatment regime! I hope it continues to go well!


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## bsmith

I dont know if you have read my mini-m journal but heres the short of it.

I wanted to take my RCS out of the tank and put in snowballs. Knowing that they would cross breed I took out as many as humanly possible then blasted the whole tank with excel. Not only did it im sure kill any remaining RCS but it also killed ~80% of the plants and made the tank go through a cycle all over again.

Just some food for thought if you decide to go wild with a whole tank excel od.


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## Complexity

All the fish and inverts look good so far. The plants are going nuts with pearling and bubbles from the H2O2. The tank looks like a blizzard of bubbles with some bubbles now coating the top part of my driftwood.

I'm working to come up with an aggressive plan to kill out all of the BBA and BBA spores when I move the tank which it being discussed in the "move" thread I posted earlier.

Looks like I'll be replacing my substrate and filter media. All bacteria will be killed as I sterilize everything. I'll use SafeStart (the predecessor of Bio-Spira) to restart the cycle.


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## Complexity

bsmith782 said:


> I wanted to take my RCS out of the tank and put in snowballs. Knowing that they would cross breed I took out as many as humanly possible then blasted the whole tank with excel. Not only did it im sure kill any remaining RCS but it also killed ~80% of the plants and made the tank go through a cycle all over again.


How much did you OD? And which plants were adversely affected? I know some plants do not do well with Excel even at regular dosage.

I think cherries are more sensitive than amanos; however, I once accidentally dosed 4x the water change dosage of excel in my 5g RCS tank. Didn't phase them. It might have helped that I had a lot of plants to utilize the Excel which, in effect, cleaned it out of the water. However, it's not something I would do again. I just got my dosing tables for my different tanks mixed up.


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## bsmith

I dosed about a 100x's the recommended amount! :eek5:

Strangely enough the only plants to NOT melt were my Erio's, the MOST sensitive of all the plants in there. My Anubis (nana, and petiete), flame, weeping and peacock moss, and quite abit of my marselia melted.

Before.









After.










Complexity said:


> How much did you OD? And which plants were adversely affected? I know some plants do not do well with Excel even at regular dosage.
> 
> I think cherries are more sensitive than amanos; however, I once accidentally dosed 4x the water change dosage of excel in my 5g RCS tank. Didn't phase them. It might have helped that I had a lot of plants to utilize the Excel which, in effect, cleaned it out of the water. However, it's not something I would do again. I just got my dosing tables for my different tanks mixed up.


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## Complexity

bsmith782 said:


> I dosed about a 100x's the recommended amount! :eek5:


:eek5:

Okay, I'll remember to not dose 100x the recommended amount. :hihi:

Honestly, I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm sure you were very happy that your Erios made it! They're pretty expensive and hard to find, aren't they?

I have to ask... how did 100x the recommended amount get inside the tank? Did you do it intentionally or was it an accident?


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## bsmith

It really wasnt 100x's but more like 20-30x's. I dosed that amount because I figured that would be about the only way to kill off any RCS that I couldnt find that were left in the tank AND not kill my plants. I did not want the snowballs I was planning to add to xbreed with them. Obviously the outcome I got was much different then I hoped for. There were no RCS left though.:thumbsup: 



Complexity said:


> :eek5:
> 
> Okay, I'll remember to not dose 100x the recommended amount. :hihi:
> 
> Honestly, I'm sorry for your loss, but I'm sure you were very happy that your Erios made it! They're pretty expensive and hard to find, aren't they?
> 
> I have to ask... how did 100x the recommended amount get inside the tank? Did you do it intentionally or was it an accident?


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## Complexity

Yeah, I can see that happening. Just like what I'm doing now. I think I'm pushing my luck a little with treating so much H2O2 so often, topped with Excel treatments. I don't know what the fish, inverts and plants can handle. There's a sense of denial that this will kill anything, but if it does, I'm going to feel horrible.

I'm watching my fish with the increased CO2 dosing, and it seems some are swimming a little higher than normal, but they aren't at the surface, gasping for air. I hope they don't crash once the H2O2 stops creating oxygen bubbles in the tank. That may be what's helping them tolerate the higher CO2.


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## bsmith

If you can watch your fish closely then I feel they will give you a good indication of whats going on. I dosed the Excel with the intention of killing the shrimp not the plants.


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## Complexity

Yeah, I'm watching them closely. The tank is directly in front of me as I type. The only time I'm going to leave is to pick up my daughter to watch the Presidential debate with me, and then I'll take her back home. My house is only 15 minutes away so even if I have cranked up the CO2 too high, I won't be gone long enough to not catch any problems before they turn deadly.


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## bsmith

I cant wait to have pressurized co2 on my tanks. If you dont mind me asking, how do you feel you got so much bba in your tank even though you have pressurized co2? 



Complexity said:


> Yeah, I'm watching them closely. The tank is directly in front of me as I type. The only time I'm going to leave is to pick up my daughter to watch the Presidential debate with me, and then I'll take her back home. My house is only 15 minutes away so even if I have cranked up the CO2 too high, I won't be gone long enough to not catch any problems before they turn deadly.


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## Complexity

I don't mind you asking at all.

I bought some anubias from the SNS forum that did state it had BBA. I had never had BBA before so I could only go by the reports that it doesn't do well in tanks with steady, high amounts of CO2. So I thought that having not only a pressurized system, but also having a pH controlled (as opposed to using a day/night timer) would be good enough.

I also bleached the anubias before putting it in my tank. The 1:20 ratio for at least 2 minutes as I've always seen recommended. The BBA turned white so I thought it was dead.

At that point, I put the anubias in my tanks, and I've had BBA ever since.

The first sign that it had survived and was spreading was when it started turning black at the leaf edges, and then it spread to my java ferns. I still have a lot of java ferns in other tanks that I refuse to allow back into my 75g (or any other planted tank). That BBA is white so I think it's dead, but I can't put it in the tank since I know java ferns are highly susceptible to it.

The BBA also grew in some flame moss and fissidens that I had in my 75g. The flame moss is clean of it now (in another tank, as well) while the fissidens will probably have to be tossed. I will not put any moss in the 75g until all BBA is dead. Moss is also highly susceptible to BBA.

At that point, I cranked up my CO2 as far as the fish could handle it. Or at least I thought I did. I was still only running 2 of my 4 lamps so the BBA didn't spread much. However, my plants also didn't do well with the lower light levels.

Then Hurricane Ike hit. A full week without power. No CO2. I had to change 90% of the water every day to keep up with the ammonia as a lot of my bacteria died. I also had to clean out both canisters because of the dead bacteria in them.

At that point, I was hopeful that the power outage had served as a black out for the BBA. But when the power came back on, the BBA spread with a vengeance. I started finding small tufts of it throughout the tank. This was much worse than before. It even got on my intake strainers which had never happened before.

I'm trying very hard to get rid of it, but it's not going away very easily. I'm sure part of the problem is the light as I now run all 4 bulbs. My photo period was way too high so I'm sure that contributed. I'm going to reduce it now.

What's really concerning me is that the BBA is actually growing on the substrate! I even found a small dot of it on the front glass! It's all very small still, but it's all over the tank. If I don't work hard to stop it, it will take over my entire tank.

So all I can do is raise the CO2 even more and kill out what I can with H2O2 and Excel. And since I'm going to move back to my house which requires that I break down my entire tank, I'm going to use the opportunity to try to completely eradicate the BBA. But if 1 spore survives and my tank's conditions allows it to grow, I'm back to square one.


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## Complexity

Oh, also meant to say that I just talked to Jud at Caribsea, and he said he'll replace my eco-complete if I send him a receipt. Yea!!

The bad news is he said it will take 3-6 weeks before I get it. Yikes. That's not going to work.

So what I think I'll do is see if my favorite LFS will let me buy it from them so I can use it right away and then do a return on the bags from Caribsea when they arrive. I'm looking at around 9 bags so that's a lot of money!


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## bsmith

Wow. That sucks. Its really hard to battle something when you read one thing about it (bba is caused by low/inconsistent co2) but you arent doing that. What do you correct then? Do you have High flow in the areas your experiencing it?


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## Complexity

Update time! I'm definitely winning the battle against BBA. After treating with H2O2 and Excel for 3 days in a row, I decided to give the tank a break to see how well the treatments have been working. Most, if not all, of the BBA appears to be dead.

That doesn't mean I'm out of the woods, yet, of course. But it does seem the spreading has been stopped. My fish are handling the higher level of CO2 which is great.

I just got some new plants from a wonderful trade, and I received so many that I don't have physical room to plant them all. So I'm going to pull out the crypts that are have the most BBA on them to make space for the new stems. I may also pull out one of my large rocks, as well. The new stems will help with the plant mass issue. Then, when I move my tank, I can change my scape to make room for the new stems with the rocks and crypts back in place.

I also think pulling out the crypts that are worst affected by the BBA will give me a chance to treat them outside of the tank. Those crypts seem to be the plants that are keeping the BBA alive. So this should be a win/win overall. More stems to correct the plant mass issue while the BBA carrier crypts can be treated so get rid of the BBA.

The only causalty to the H2O2 and Excel treatments is one of my nerite snails. It's not dead, but it's not moving very much at all. I've moved it to my 2.5g so I can keep a better eye on it. This way, if it dies, I can easily remove it so it won't fowl up the water. All the other nerites seems to be okay. This leaves me to recommend that H2O2 and Excel treatments are not performed too closely to nerite snails or, better yet, remove the snails until after the filters are turned back on. I think what may have harmed this snail isn't so much the H2O2 or Excel, but that the snail ended up in direct contact with the areas being treated while the filters were off to help the treatment be more concentrated in a specific area. I'd keep the snails out of those areas until the filters can dilute the concentration in those areas.

BTW, I'm getting really nice plant growth even with the treatments. I think the plants actually like it. The only plant suffering are the vals which is to be expected. Everything else has grown during this time!


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## Guest

Nice to see things are looking up for you. Good luck with everything.


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## Complexity

I got all the new plants planted. I had to remove a large rock to fit them in, but I'll figure out a way to incorporate then all in my design when I move my tank. For now, I'm just wanting to get the plants healthy enough to handle the move.

I also moved all 10 SAEs into the tank. I'm going to really regret this when I try to catch them for the move, but I'm hoping they'll eat away at the BBA in the tank. With 10 of them, surely, they'll eat some of it.

While doing a water change, I discovered that my XP4 was so badly clogged that hardly any water was coming out! This was odd given that I had just recently cleaned it all out. So I opened it all up and checked around only to discover that the top "fine" pad was filthy! It was so bad, the water literally couldn't pass through it!

When I had to clean my canisters out after the power outage, I didn't have any filter pads for my XP4. So I grabbed some filter floss I had bought in bulk, cut it to fit, and used it. This is a very fine floss. Reminds me of wool. Anyway, that stuff really caught the tiny particles which is what clogged the filter!

I was about to replace it with a real XP4 filter pad when I realized that this other filter floss is really doing one heck of a job getting the tiny particles! So I put in more of the filter floss. I figure since I'll be moving my tank in a few weeks, I can change it out at that time. But, wow, did this floss catch the gunk!

I wish so much I could see my new SAEs in the tank! I'll have to wait until tomorrow. I did leave the lights on long enough to see that several of them had grouped together. My torpedo barbs didn't know what to think! They had huddled together, as well. But my Pelvicachromis 'Malawi' weren't bothered much as the female was enticing the male right beside the SAEs. Seems nothing stops kribs from mating!

The filter that had clogged is the one connected to the injected CO2 so it will be interesting to see how the CO2 is dosed now. I'm surprised it was able to be dosed so well with a clogged filter.


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## Guest

10 SAE's should clean that tank up fast. I know I have 3 SAE's and a CAE and they keep mine spotless. Good luck with your move though and catching them.


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## rich815

DementedMindz said:


> 10 SAE's should clean that tank up fast. I know I have 3 SAE's and a CAE and they keep mine spotless. Good luck with your move though and catching them.


Please do report back on this. My SAEs seem busy but when I had a decent outbreak of BBA they barely touched it, nary a dent. I have it under control now after a big removal and cleaning of driftwood and all leaves with any BBA, and the SAEs might indeed be helping keep it in check now that's it 99% gone, but they never really helped me get rid of it.


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## Complexity

Rich, how old are your SAEs? I've heard that they're only affective when young. Mine seem young as they're only about 1.5 inches long. I've managed to kill out most of the BBA, but there are still places where I can see it, and I'm sure it's tucked away in places that I can't see.

It would be wonderful if the SAEs cleaned it out, but I'm not holding my breath. I've just wanted SAEs for a long, long time, and this was the first time I've found them (hence, the reason I got so many).

Last night was their first night in the tank and I have zucchini out so I don't expect they'd be eating much algae, but the zucchini gets removed this morning, and then we'll see.


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## rich815

Complexity said:


> Rich, how old are your SAEs? I've heard that they're only affective when young. Mine seem young as they're only about 1.5 inches long.


Yeah, that's how big mine were when I first got them about 4 months back. They are still pretty small (maybe 2.5" now?) and still seem to look around and nibble for algae (or something on the leaves) though they are starting to get an appetite for the frozen bloodworms I feed sometimes and even the natural salmon flakes I put in there too.

But I have never seen them actually munch or touch a tuft of BBA.


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## Guest

rich815 said:


> Please do report back on this. My SAEs seem busy but when I had a decent outbreak of BBA they barely touched it, nary a dent. I have it under control now after a big removal and cleaning of driftwood and all leaves with any BBA, and the SAEs might indeed be helping keep it in check now that's it 99% gone, but they never really helped me get rid of it.



Yeah mine are about 2 inches right now and they still look for all kinds of algae. When they get other foods or are given too much of another food that is when they will get lazy. I had bba but not a spot of it anymore in my tank thank god. I will tell you though my albino CAE does more then the SAE's and that has been since day one.

I had bought 3 SAE's and was sent the albino CAE extra and I have heard they are aggressive all kinds of things well only aggression I seen so far was looking for algae. Other then that he will hide come out here and there but I would say 80% of the day hes looking for algae.


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## rich815

So.....any one actually seen a tuft of BBA, then an SAE come along, mow it down, then the tuft is gone? Or changed nothing but add SAEs to a tank and seen a decent amount of BBA disappear as a result? I've seen my SAEs make their way along, nibbling here and there, eventually find a BBA tuft, nibble or check it out once or twice, and just move right along leaving it pretty much intact. Maybe they need to be starved of all other food options?

Even my 2 BN Plecos barely touched the stuff. But when I removed my large driftwood, which were carpeted with BBA, drenched them in Excel and H202, then let them dry out for a week, all the BBA dried up and died (turned deep red). I put the driftwood back in the tank with the deep carpets of dead BBA and within two weeks the plecos ate all the dead BBA, and the driftwood looked polished!!!

But live BBA? I've yet to see any fish "take care of it". But so often here and elsewhere when one complains of a big BBA infestation people say "Get SAEs!!" I question the efficacy of such advice to do anything like take of such a problem.


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## rich815

Oh, and before someone asks: yes, the mine are real SAEs. I did my research and bought from a reputable source.

(Sorry, hope I'm not being seen to "hijack" the thread. But the idea here is to spur along related discussion to your tank, yes?)


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## Complexity

No hijacking worries! One of the nice things about having a journal thread is that the topics can meander to all kinds of things!

I can't say that I've seen them munching on a tuft of living BBA because I've worked hard to kill it; however, I am utterly surprised at how fast they are cleaning out my Crypt lucens which was the worst covered with BBA. Even after treating it with H2O2 and Excel, there were still black areas. I couldn't tell if it was dead or what, but the the amanos didn't eat it as I expected since amanos are supposed to be excellent at cleaning up dead BBA.

It's funny because of the 10 SAEs I put in, there is just one SAE that is absolutely glued to that area. He refuses to check out any other area in the tank; he's just too busy eating there. I'm seeing other SAEs join him, but they eat a little here, a little there, and go all over. Not this one SAE.

So maybe it's just a matter of different fish having different preferences? I have to say that I am very surprised at how much they've already cleaned out that area. Is it live BBA? I honestly think some of it is, but I can't point to one specific tuft, guarantee that it's still alive, and watch a SAE eat it.

All I can really do is wait and watch to see how well they clean up the tank. I'll get a really good idea of their work when I break the tank down in a couple weeks.


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## @[email protected]

SAE will eat live BBA.
some dont recognize is it as food (at least thats what i think), but if you have a group of fish, and one starts to eat something, the others catch on pretty quick. 

arent you glad you got SAE?


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## Complexity

I'm looking forward to seeing what they did last night. I cut the lights at 5pm (ugh, I hated doing it, but they had been on for 8 hours already). So they've had a lot of time to eat whatever they want. I'm hoping they have done more work on the BBA, but who knows.

I did find live, actively growing BBA in a few places that I can use to judge whether they eat it right away or not.

I'm also working to prepare my other tanks to move and hold the fish during the move.


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## Complexity

_(I tried to post this reply earlier, but the board when down so this post may seem out of place since time has passed.)_

Lights on! I looked all around the tank, and I am really impressed. The SAEs are truly cleaning up the tank. They apparently eat dead BBA because all the dead, but still fuzzy, BBA is gone. I discovered a pretty good size patch on one of the pieces of driftwood yesterday, and now it is ALL gone! They're also cleaning out the GDA.

I am positive they're eating the live BBA. The leaves that had it only have black markings where it was. I'm not sure if the black markings is BBA that's been eaten back so far that all that's left is the very base of it or if it's damage to the leaves where the BBA had been. I'll cut off a leaf to examine it closely to figure out what it is, if possible.

Even with all the H2O2 and Excel treatments and with around 40 amanos, the BBA, dead and alive, has not been knocked back this far before. I had some dead BBA along the edges of my older lotus leaves. GONE. Some pieces of the substrate had dead BBA on them which had turned the dead-red color. GONE. And my crypts which no matter what I did, the dead BBA and living BBA maintained a very fuzzy growth on the leaves. Mostly GONE. Very little remains.

I can also see where they've been eating the GDA. The pattern of what they eat is different from the nerites so I can tell which animal ate what, and there's no mistaking that the SAEs are eating it.

If I add otos to the tank (which I'd like to do when I can find them), I may get my dread of running the lights longer just so I can grow enough algae to keep them all fed! I don't mind GDA, especially on the rocks, since it makes them look more like they belong there and weren't just stuck there.

I'm also amazed at some of the plant growth I'm getting. I had bought some very beautiful stems of Pagostemon stellatus from Ingg which I promptly began to kill out. I was very afraid to put them in my tank with the BBA so I didn't plant them for a few days. When I did plant them, I wasn't using all 4 bulbs in my light fixture. So they didn't grow well. Then, on top of all that, I lost power for a week which brought the stems very near death. All that was left were tiny bits of growth at the very tips. Tex_Gal was very generous in giving me some more stems in her care package to me, and this time, with all 4 bulbs running, they took off like crazy! I swear they grew 2" yesterday! They're growing so fast that I made a note of their height today so I can compare it with their height tomorrow to be sure I'm not seeing things!

I'll have to get some pictures soon to show the new growth. I think my tank is finally beginning to take off. It's going to hurt to tear it all down so soon, but I know what to do when I set it back up so it should recover quickly.

All I can say as far as the BBA, _go SAEs, go!_ :biggrin:


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## Karackle

wow glad to hear htey are doing the job you wanted them to do! That's great!  Glad to hear the tank is bouncing back nicely too, that will definitely make the re-setup much easier!


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## Complexity

I'm so thrilled with the growth. I can see a big change in plant growth which means they'll be in good shape to take the move.

My Pagostemon stellatus has definitely been growing at least !" per day! It's amazing to be able to watch it. I'm thinking of maybe setting up my camera on a tripod and take pictures every 30 minutes or so which can be put together to actually watch the growth.

The SAEs do seem to really like the GDA as they go from rock to rock en masse, but they still work on the BBA on the Crypts. Right now, there are 2 SAEs on the Crypts. Umm... I take that back. Now there are 4 on the Crypts! Well, one just left. You get the idea. :smile: They're really fun fish, too. Busy little beavers, but very happy go lucky. Reminds me of corys, just different body shape. Their wiggling is really cute, especially when 8 or more are eating from the same spot all together!


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## @[email protected]

they are really good algae eaters and fun(ny) to watch when they are young. 
when they get older they are much less active, and eat much less. they also realize flakes are edible by that time and use algae only as a suppliment. but the old ones are smart fish. my oldest SAE (RIP) recognized me from my dad.


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## Complexity

I've thought about what it'll be like when all 10 SAEs get older. Good thing I actually like them!

I've been withholding food quite a bit to encourage the SAEs to eat algae. Now my guppies are getting into the act! And my pleco has taken to gnawing on the wood again. Maybe I should feed the fish? :hihi:

Plants continue to grow wonderfully! I was given some nearly dead rotala (unkown species, it was in that bad of condition). It's showing signs of growth now! My Pagostemon stellatus stems have reached the top of the tank so I'm going to cut them back and plant the cuttings. It's very clear the higher light is what's working.

My only problem now is the GDA. I'm getting much more than I want (like I'd want any). I think the biggest problem is that the SAEs prefer it over the BBA. Still, there are two SAEs on the crypts as I type so they aren't completely avoiding the BBA.

Today is fasting/trimming/no ferts day (although I did add ferts because I skipped two days last week). I think I'll go ahead and move my otos from my 20L to my 75g. Yeah, I'm going to hate all of this when I try to get all the fish back out when I break down my tank, but I think the more I can clean up the algae before the move, the better off I'll be in the long run. So sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. Plus, since I will be breaking down the entire tank, I think that will help me get the fish back out later.

I also have a large 2 liter coke bottle emptied out to use as a trap (especially for the amanos). So the combination of a trap, several very large nets, and having the tank completely broken down makes me believe I will be able to get the fish back out reasonably well.

13 days left until I move the tank so 12 days before the full tank break down. The countdown has begun.


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## rich815

Just something I thought I'd throw out there. These babies:

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752410

are awesome for catching fish in a heavily planted tank. Forget chasing them around with nets. This thing is invisible in the water. I place it in the water (and since the fish pretty much cannot see it, no one gets stressed like they do typically after that first try with a net) and then I slowly "herd" the fish I want to get (often with a small fish net) towards it. They swim right in!

To think how frustrated I used to get trying to catch certain fish. I do not think it's taken more than two tries and one minute to catch any fish since I got it.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Rich! I actually have one! They're great for catching some fish, but I don't like using it for faster fish. Even when I do catch them, they are able to get out before I can get them above the surface.

I have managed to get a torpedo bard, a specific cardinal tetra (out of 21 total) and an apisto out of the tank — without disturbing any other fish or plants — in a matter of seconds (of actual time trying to catch the fish). What works for me are large, black nets (around 8" to 10" with 14" handles).

What I do is first study the fish in question to figure out where it wants to be inside the tank. Then I wet the net so it won't have bubbles all over it, and place it in to the back of the general area the fish prefers. And then I walk away for a couple of minutes. This causes the fish to not be so focused on the net. I also think the black color helps to camouflage it. When I return to the tank, I don't immediately attempt to get the fish. This way, the fish isn't focused on me either. Finally, I grab the net and wait patiently for the desired fish to swim in the area. Then it's just a matter of pulling the net up. I have found this to be very successful with as little stress as possible to all the fish in the tank.

I think the main key is to be very slow and patient prior to attempting to net the fish. When you finally do try to catch it, the shear size of the net helps to catch the fish even when they try to swim away.

I'm always afraid I'll hurt a fish if I tried to race behind it with a net so I am very careful to catch them slowly and calmly. As a result, I discovered that this is also the easiest way to catch them.

Now having said all that, just wait until the day I try to catch them all. I'll be posting profanities at how hard it is to get them! :hihi:


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## @[email protected]

well FYI, you will not catch even 1 SAE with a net in under 2 hours. i never saw that product before, so i dont know how well it works. but catching a SAE, is like trying to catch a horse on foot. until its dead, you have no chance.


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## Complexity

Please don't tell me that! I have to catch 10 of them!

If all else fails, I can always remove all plants and decor, pull away the substrate in a small area, and drain the water, leaving water only in the small area (while corralling the SAEs into that area). I've had that plan in mind all along since I'll be breaking down the tank.

I did manage to catch all 10 SAEs pretty easily in my 5g tanks. At first, they swim all over the place, but then they freeze up a little. At that point, I just held the net against the glass in their area. If they swam out, I'd let them. Eventually, they would stop swimming out (it seems as if they aren't sure how to get away since previous attempts didn't work). Then I gently tap the glass with my fingernail which causes them to swim away, directly into the net. It's just a matter of pulling the net up then.

If I wasn't breaking down the entire tank, I'd be at a complete loss of how to get them back out. But since I will be pulling everything out, including even the substrate, I'm pretty sure I can catch them. It's just a matter of how easy or hard they are to catch.

Ideally, I'd love for them to go into the coke bottle trap so I wouldn't have to net them at all. But I'm not holding my breath on that.

I guess I'll find out how difficult they'll be to catch soon enough. I plan to move my smaller tanks and all fish to my house on Oct 29. That's just 12 days from now!


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## CobraGuppy

Another thing you can do is catch them while they are sleeping. You would probably be able to catch one easily before you wake all the others.


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## Complexity

Yeah, that's another idea. I've done that before with hard to catch fish, but not in a tank this large.

I'm honestly not looking forward to breaking down that tank. Unlike many others here, the actual process of planting is not enjoyable for me. Watching the planted plants grow is very enjoyable for me which is why I do the planting part.

One thing that will be good about breaking everything down is that I can create a database of all the fish and plants I have. I have the names of most of my plants, but it's all strewn about in different threads so I can't remember them all.

When Tex_Gal sent me a care package to help deal with the setbacks of no power for a week, she told me how she kept everything documented. She has the name and a picture of all her plants recorded. I want to use her idea so I can keep track of what I have. I can do that when I break it all down.

Plus, I'm looking forward to getting a count of how many amanos and cardinal tetras I have now. I know how many I put in the tank, but I don't know how many have actually survived. I don't think any of the cardinals have died, but try counting 21 of them when they're all over a 75g tank! I can't do it! I should have around 30-35 amanos, but I have no clue if there's really that many in the tank. By breaking it all down, I can see how many deaths I've had, if any, which will give me some idea of how those fish and inverts are doing.


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## Complexity

Last pics before I tear it all down for the move! Wow, have the plants grown. The tank is really filling in now. I think the plants should do fine with the move. They may get set back a little, but they're healthy enough to handle it.

I'm definitely winning the fight against the BBA. ALL spreading has stopped, and what remains is reducing. With the move, I should be able to clean up any that's remaining and then keep it away after that. I think the combination of being very good with my fert dosing, raising the CO2 again, and having actual plant mass to use up the ferts.

I still have a LOT of the GDA, but I don't really care. It'll get cleaned out when I break down the tank, and then I'll see about keeping it away when I set things back up. But between the amanos, nerite snails and SAEs (and even the guppies like to nibble on it), I think it's good to have in the tank. When I get some otos, I bet they'll love it, too.

I can clean it off of the glass and it does not come back in just 90 minutes so it's not interfering with my viewing pleasure. If I had to live with any algae, this would be the one I'd pick. It actually looks pretty nice.

Okay, does anyone want some pics? I sure hope so because I have *30* pics to post! :biggrin:


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## Chrisinator

Post it! Post it! Post it! Post it! Post it! Post it!


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## Complexity

PICS! PICS! And more PICS! :hihi:

I figured I'd grab some final pics before the move. I got some FTS and pictures of each plant in the tank. I'm going to use the plant pictures to keep a list of the plants I have so I can remember all their names (Tex_Gal's idea).

Plus, I'm going to need some help in figuring out a better placement for the plants. I have too many crammed up together on one side with some shorter/smaller leafed plants being too far back and becoming swallowed. Not to mention that I have NO idea how to tame my Hygro 'sunset'. I think it wants to take over my entire tank!

Okay, FINALLY, the pictures:

Full tank shot:










On a step stool, looking down to see how the plants are placed in the tank.










Left side:










Middle:










Right side:


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## CL

Those reds are great!


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## @[email protected]

lets see some pics!


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## Complexity

Another full tank shot, a little from the side:










And one last straight on full tank shot. I am amazed at the plant growth!










These aren't in perfect order. This is a close-up of the far left side.










This is actually supposed to be a picture of my Crypt lucens, but my torpedo barbs felt rather photogenic at the moment. Not that I mind! :smile: Actually, I think they're begging me for food since I'm not feeding them much to make sure the SAEs eat the algae. Poor guys. I'll give them a frozen treat tomorrow.

I just noticed that one of my kribs got in the photo. Check the lower right of the picture. That's my prized male Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke'.

These Crypts are the ones that have had the BBA. They're finally starting to clear up. I'll get rid of the rest for sure when I tear them out for the move.










My creeping Jenny (I'll have to look up the latin name — EDIT, it's Lysimachia nummularia). I received this as an extra in a plant swap. It took awhile for it to get going, but it seems pretty happy now! I like this plant. It's a very pretty leaf shape and color, and it doesn't grow too fast. It does get algae, but the fish like to clean it off.


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## Complexity

My Crypt balanesae in the far back left corner. Please excuse the GDA all over the glass.

I'm going to have to find a different place for this plant because it's too close to the intake screen. The suction keeps grabbing it. Plus, I need to do a better job of balancing the two sides. Too many bushy plants on the right with none really on the left.










This is my Polygonum ‘Sao Paulo’. It was in my care package from Tex_Gal. It is so striking! The color is amazing on this one. It grows really nice, but not too fast to take over the tank. Definitely one of my favorites!










Hygro difformis variegated, again from the plants Tex_Gal sent me. Unfortunately, it's jammed in the back so I can't get a good picture of the variegated part. It's veins are white! This plant took off like a rocket the instant I planted it. But to my surprise, it's not taking over. It likes to be more like a bush which I really like.










This is a Bacopa that I received a long time ago as an extra in a SNS purchase. I'll have to look up which Bacopa it is now.

It almost didn't make it for a long time, but it's finally beginning to get some nice growth on it. I love the slight tinge of pink on the top leaves. I need to cut the tops off to get more stems so it's not so lonely in the tank.

EDIT: I believe this one is Bacopa caroliniana.

EDIT AGAIN: Nope, it's Bacopa colorata.










And my Red Tiger Lotus. The really bright pink growth has matured into the colors most normally found. The old, original tall leaves are gone. I like how it's filling in very busy rather than tall. I'd like to keep it like this!

Oh, and not only did my cardinal tetras decide to pose for this pic, but if you look at the lower left corner of the pic, you can see some of my kribs! These are my Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke'. This picture does not do them justice!


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## Complexity

This is one of the very first plants I ever bought! It's my Crypt wendtii 'bronze'. It grows like wild! The picture is terrible, unfortunately. I'm not sure what to do with this. I have three clumps of it in my 75g and a ton in my 20L. I'll probably need to sell some of this after I move. I just have too much.

This is a great plant that has grown incredibly well in both, my high-tech 75g and my low-tech 20L which has low/med light with no CO2 (not even excel) or ferts. This is a great plant for anyone, including beginners.










Another beautiful plant from Tex_Gal! This is Ludwigia arcuata. I have a lot more that you can't see in the picture. Tex_Gal sent me a huge number of stems! I'm finding it a little slower to take off, but it's getting there. I think part of its problem is that it's being swallowed by the wisteria. I'll definitely have to find a better place for it when I put my tank back together after the move.










I do not know what plant this is, but it is beautiful! I got this one a long, long time ago as an extra in another SNS purchase. I ended up floating it in my 20L for months to the point it almost all died out. I planted it, and this is what I got!

It's growth pattern reminds me of a Hydro. But, wow, the color. And the leaf form is absolute perfection. This is a definite favorite of mine!

I had asked for IDs for some of my plants a long time ago, and this one might have been identified. I'll have to find the old thread to see.

BTW, notice all the small leaves at each node. The minute I cut this one, it's going to explode with bushier growth! I'm looking forward to offering this one to others in the SNS forum. I think a lot of people will enjoy it.

EDIT: Found my ID thread... this plant is Ludwigia glandulosa.










My Blyxa japonica, once more from Tex_Gal (I think most of my tank came from her!). I had a whole bunch that I was given as extras in a SWS purchase, but I didn't do very well with them. Once I started to get them to grow better, hurricane Ike came along and took out my power. Only nubs were left, and the fish liked pulling them up (nibbling on the soft tissue at the ends of the leaves). ALL of my original Blyxa died.

When Tex_Gal sent me these stems, I did better at giving them what they needed (more light!). I also weighed some down so the fish couldn't keep pulling them up while they weren't yet rooted. Finally, that worked.

Slow growing for me which I like. They're getting shaded too much now. I want to pull them forward more when I replant my tank after the move.











My Marselia minuta ground cover. It's filling in, slowly but surely. Not sure how to avoid the yellow leaves. I think I'll give it some fert tabs to see if that helps. I am NOT looking forward to pulling it all up and replanting it after the move. But I have to do what I have to do.


----------



## Complexity

These two plants are not the same! When they were tiny, almost dead cuttings, I asked for IDs, and we thought they were the same. But it's clear they are not.

The plant to focus on is the taller one on the right side. I'm not sure if I have an ID on this one; I'll have to check the names I was given in my ID thread to see if it matches.

This plant has a much thicker and stiffer main stem. In fact, I kept having problems with the leaves looking poorly when I finally realized that it did not lay over when I did water changes. So whenever I worked on the tank with only 50% of the water in it, this poor plant was sticking up, out of the water the whole time!

It also has a gorgeous color, as you can see. I need to move it where it can have some real space and then propagate it so I don't have just the one.

It's so tall now that I have to give it a "tin foil hat" when I do a water change to protect it from the lights while it's not covered with water.

EDIT: I think this plant is Ammannia gracillis. I have no idea where I got it! It must have been an extra in one of my SNS deals.










My Giant Baby Tears from who else... Tex_Gal! I love this plant! Again, really nice contrast in leaf shape, color and size from the others. It's growing like a weed, and is being completely swallowed up by the other plants. I'll have to find a better place for it when I rescape my tank after the move.










This has to be one of my big favorites. This is Limnophila hippuroides that I just got from a SNS purchase. Amazing plant! I've read that it will do well in medium light so I hope to grow this in my 29g after the move. I adore the color!

This is a plant I would definitely recommend for the beginner that's beginning to branch out beyond the basics (no pun intended!). It rooted and started growing almost immediately. And you can't beat the color!

I have a LOT of this which I will be able to share with others in the SNS forum soon, I hope.










My Hygro 'sunset' which is taking over my entire tank, but isn't too happy for some reason. I'm actually wondering if it's getting too much light!

It's not giving me the colors it's supposed to, and some of the leaves are curling up on the sides. Not sure what's wrong.

I've had to trim this monster back once already, and I obviously need to trim it again. I'm not sure what form to grow this one, but I think however I grow it, I'll have to give it lots of room and be prepared to trim it A LOT.










This picture shows an example of the leaf curling I mentioned above. When the curled up sides are illuminated by the lights, it looks white!

I'd like to know what's causing this poor growth so I can figure out how to fix it.


----------



## MikeP_123

Wow, great idea! You gave me some great Ideas for plants in my tank. BTW what is your wpg?


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## fishbguy1

The unidentified plant in the 1st group of pictures looks kinda like my Ludwegia palustris.

The tank looks AWESOME! It's beautiful!


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## Complexity

The last set of pictures!

This is regular wisteria that I received as an extra. I ran out of places to put plants so I tucked it in between some rocks for now. I think this one might do well in my 29g once I get it set up. Another very pretty plant with nice contrasting leaves and a bright color. The picture does not do it justice at all.










Another Bacopa, but I can't remember which one. I'll have to look it up again.

EDIT: This one is Bacopa monnieri.

Poor thing is stretching to get light. It's growing pretty fast for me. I've already trimmed it twice, planting the trimmings so now I have a nice patch of it. It's reached the top of the water so I'll have to trim it after the move. I'll also have to find it a better place so it won't have to reach for the light.

A generally nice plant, easy to care for, offering a nice vertical line as contrast to the other plants.










Pagostemon stellatus. I got a lot of very healthy clippings from a SNS purchase from Ingg. But I didn't give it enough light so they didn't do so well. When I lost power from the hurricane, they were all but dead.

Tex_Gal shared some of hers with me, and those took off like a rocket! In fact, I had to trim them because they grew so fast.

Unfortunately, they're now being taken over by the hygro 'sunset' so they're stretching to get light. I'll fix that when I move the tank.

The original stems I got from Ingg finally sprouted new growth, and as best I can tell (it's a real jungle in there), those stems survived. I'll cut off the good growth and replant it.

A definite favorite of mine, but it has to have bright light to do well.










This was an extra from a SNS purchase. The seller couldn't grow it so she sent it to me. I lost my rotala 'vietnam' from the power outage after the hurricane. I'm not sure which rotala this is, but it could be more 'vietnam'? Just tiny buds are growing now, but they are growing! I just hope it doesn't die during the move.










And one final picture. One of my SAEs was giving me the eye while I was taking pictures so I snapped one of him. I have 10 of these babies in the tank which is really helping keep the algae at bay.

I must have looked for true SAEs for about a year before I finally found them. I plan to move 3-4 to my 29g later, keeping 6-7 in the 75g. They're going to be lots of fun to catch for the move!


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## CL

Nice pics. That unknown rotala is a beauty.
I wish that my SAE would eat algae


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## Complexity

MikeP_123 said:


> Wow, great idea! You gave me some great Ideas for plants in my tank. BTW what is your wpg?


Thanks, Mike! I have a TEK 4x54w fixture with two Giesemann 11000K Aquablue Plus and two 6000K Midday Sun bulbs. I now run all 4 bulbs for 7 hours a day. Still trying to figure out the right photo period, but 7 hours seems to be working well right now.

So that gives me 2.88wpg. But also keep in mind that the TEK reflectors are incredible so more light gets into the tank than most fixtures.



fishbguy1 said:


> The unidentified plant in the 1st group of pictures looks kinda like my Ludwegia palustris.
> 
> The tank looks AWESOME! It's beautiful!


Thanks for the compliment!

I looked through google images, and while I won't rule it out, I don't think that plant is Ludwigia palustris. The leaves are shaped different. The leaves on my plant are a very gentle almond shape with a nice point on the end. The pictures of Ludwigia palustris seemed to have more rounded leaves.

Also, the color on my plant is only at the top with the new growth and not on the older leaves.


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## @[email protected]

your tank is amazing. such deep dark vivid intense colors.
it looks stunning.
i love the lotus. and the stems.
your reds are so red they are purple, im very impressed.

oh and i love the SAE. great fish.

i think that rotala might be a wallichi? it looks to red to vietnam.


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## Complexity

The only reason my SAEs are eating is because they're still young and I have not been feeding them. When I do feed my other fish, I feed just a little. I've intentionally wanted to keep the SAEs eating algae.

Eventually, they'll stop eating it, but by then, I'm hoping to have figured out how to balance the lights and all so I won't have as much algae. I'm already beginning to see a lot of improvement since I dropped my photo period down to 7 hours.

After they get old and lazy, they'll just be another group of pretty fish in the tank. :smile:


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Marko! I just hope the rotala makes the move. After losing the 'vietnam' I had, I have the impression they are very sensitive plants when they don't get the light, ferts and CO2 (not sure which they need most). I'll have to float this one in my tank as soon as I get it set up so it won't be in a low-tech setting for too long.

If it makes it, then I should get enough growth to get a good ID on it.

Some of the reds in the pictures seem to be a little bit more saturated than they are in real life. I had to lower the exposure to prevent the lights from clipping off too much detail which causes the background to look very black. That creates a higher contrast with the reds so they stand out more. In real life, the background isn't so dark looking due to the lights so the reds aren't quiet as brilliant appearing.

The main reason why I decided to go to the expense and trouble of a high tech tank is because I adore red with plants. And I have to say I could not be more pleased with how the reds are coming out! Now I just have to learn how to better position the plants so the reds can contrast more with the greens.


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## @[email protected]

some never stop. my best eater declined in how much she ate, but she never stopped. she grazed for a few minutes every hour.


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## @[email protected]

rotalas IMO need to be given good condition to live and grow in a tank, but cope just fine with lapses in it, so long as the lapses are not too frequently occuring. they will do just fine for a day or two during the move, and they can do fine for a week or so in suboptimal conditions (though they may algaefy).


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## Complexity

I would love it if some of my SAEs continued to eat algae. Not only for the sake of controlling algae, but they're so cute when they nibble on it. Their whole bodies get into the action, wiggling as they go!

When I first got the SAEs, they schooled quite a bit. But now that there's so much more plant growth, they seem to be scattered all over the tank, eating their little wiggly hearts out! They'll even nibble on the GDA on the glass!

The main reason I'm so worried about the rotala is because it's in such poor condition already. The nub that's photographed is about 3/4" long. Some are only 1/2" long. I cut the tops off (hoping at least they'd root), and they appear to be doing okay, but they haven't taken off yet. I wish they had more time to recover before the move, but there's nothing I can do.

I don't know how long it'll take me to get the tank set up and planted since I have so many things to do for the move. I'll rip it up on Wednesday, it gets physically moved on Thursday, and I'd love to get it set up on Friday/Saturday. Then I can put my fish back in.

I don't like the actual act of planting plants so I'm not the fastest at doing it. Plus, I'm not sure where to put them all! I have to figure out how to move them so they'll each get the light they need while still looking good in the tank. This is the first time I've had any real plant growth to work with.


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## Tex Gal

Vicki- your tank looks amazing!! I love it. I love all the reds. I think your algae problem is pretty much licked! Sorry you have to move it all but I know you'll have fun creating all over again. 

I used to stress over loosing this plant or that one but I don't anymore. Only the really really rare one would bother me to loose. Most of the time you'll see them appear again on in the SNS, or maybe friends in the aquatic club will have it. I also think there are so many out there that I like I can't use them all anyway.. so why stress.


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## @[email protected]

you dont need to really plant it all at first. my suggestion would be just to plant in bushels and no hardscape until you have time to scape it. just get the stuff stuck in the gravel.
the plant will survive the move. wednesday evening to friday midmorning isnt too long. just get it out last and in first. if it were larger, you could toss it about and not worry, but since it was just recently damaged and recovering just now, it probably doesnt have big starch reserves, and needs to be treated gentle, or it wont have the energy to keep itself alive.


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## Complexity

Good point, Tex_Gal. I'm honestly not so much stressed as I hate to lose a challenge. I love the idea of taking some stems that were barely alive and ending up with a beautiful plant! It's like a surprise. You really don't know what you'll have until it grows out!

Half of those red plants are from you! In fact, as I listed each plant, I think the most common word I used was your username! :hihi: Thanks for the compliment, too. 

Marko, I'd really rather do a scape so I won't have to keep disturbing it. But I know that no matter what I do, I'll still move things around. Still, I hope to try to make it pretty.

My substrate isn't supposed to arrive until Friday so I won't be able to plant anything before then. I have a feeling I'll have a very busy weekend!


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## Left C

Your aquarium is gorgeous and stunning. The bright colors remind me of The Blue Ridge Mountains in the fall.



Complexity said:


> Not to mention that I have NO idea how to tame my Hygro 'sunset'.


I know how. I keep giving all of mine but one stem to my LFS. I found out right quickly why this is considered and invasive plant.



Complexity said:


> This is my Polygonum ‘Sao Paulo’. It was in my care package from Tex_Gal. It is so striking! The color is amazing on this one. It grows really nice, but not too fast to take over the tank. Definitely one of my favorites!


Wow! That is the prettiest red plant that I have ever seen.:smile:


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## Robert H

This is a tank that has to have close up pictures to do it justice! Just too many gorgeous plants to appreciate from afar. Very impressive Vicki. I think your mystery plant may be Ludwigia arcuata or brevipes. Palustris doesn't have needle leaves like that.


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## Complexity

Thank you, both! I have to say I'm actually proud of this tank now. It's been a long jouney to get here, and I'm actually amazed at how it's taken off. I'm really going to hate tearing it all down this Wednesday.

Robert, the plant with the needles leaves is Ludwigia arcuata. That's not the mystery plant. It's the picture below the description, not above.

There are actually two I don't have identified. It's these two:










and










There are two different plants in both pictures. The one on the left side is easy to see, but the tall one on the right is a poor picture for identification.

I'm going to see if I can hunt down some names of plants that could give me the ID. I posted these when they were tiny, nearly dead cuttings, and at least one should be identified. I think I might have the other one identified from a SNS purchase, but it's going to be hard to find.


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## Complexity

I found my ID thread! The plant on the left side is: Ludwigia glandulosa


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## Complexity

I've looked everywhere, and I cannot find an ID for the other plant. I have a feeling it was thrown in as an extra. I have no idea what this plant is. I'm going to have to get an ID on it.


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## Complexity

Whoo Hoo! I think I just found the ID on the second plant: Ammannia gracillis. I have no idea where I got it!


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## helgymatt

Very nice pictures here! I love the lotus! I want to get one again in my 75. Hopefully I can train it to stay short like that. The last one I had wanted to always grow to the top. Maybe Tex-gal can throw in some extras in my plant order with her right now...LOL 

Also, the Polygonum ‘Sao Paulo’ is OH so great!


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## Karackle

Wow Vicki, your tank looks AMAZING! I can't believe how much it's grown in so quickly!!! I can't wait to see how you 'scape it after the move, i'm sure it'll look stunning no matter what you do though with those gorgeous plants!!!


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## Complexity

helgymatt, to keep the lotus compact, trim the roots. Mine is growing like it is because I bought it from a display tank. It had long, long roots! I cut them down to about 3". Then I literally planted them on top of slate and held it down with rocks. The roots finally found their way beyond the slate and started growing into the substrate. I still have rocks holding it down though.

If mine starts putting out too many tall leaves, I intend to cut the roots again.

I don't know if Tex_Gal adds extras to her SNS deals, but it wouldn't surprise me if she did. She sent me the plants to help me out after I had lost power for a week after hurricane Ike. I had just scaped my tank, and most of my plants weren't even rooted when the power went out. I only lost one plant completely, it knocked the others back a bit. At this time, I was trying to switch to my bright lights (since many of my plants needed bright lighting), but I didn't have enough plant mass to fend off algae. On top of that, I was fighting BBA which came back with a vengance when the power came back on.

I was amazed at her generosity of the variety and number of plants she sent. Just her one care package got my tank on the right track!

If you want any extras, just ask her. If she can spare any, I'm sure she wouldn't mind tossing something in. She's just one of those really wonderful people who enjoys being kind and generous!


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## Complexity

Thanks for the compliment, Karackle! I'm pretty amazed at their growth rate, as well. It's as if once they started growing, they _really_ started growing! I've found myself looking at the tank from a distance and not believing what I see. My tank was always so empty before!

I'm not so sure on the scaping part. I'm planning on keeping the basic scape that I have, but I'm not sure how to arrange all the plants. The main scape plan came from Ingg (he's always been so helpful to me!). I'm truly scape challenged! From there, I just started putting plants wherever I could find room so they could grow. And, boy, did they grow!

It's just all the CO2, ferts and all that everyone recommends. I did throw in some fert tablets into the substrate for the heavy root feeders. That may have contributed. I'm just now beginning to dose iron, and I'm starting to dose a little extra ferts.

I'm finding that the less I mess with everything, the better it grows. Now I just have to figure out how to arrange all the plants and how to prune them so they'll look good.


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## lauraleellbp

Absolutely gorgeous, Vicki! :thumbsup:

I'm so sorry you have to tear it down, but I guess looking at the silver lining it's an opportunity to try something new different!


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## Complexity

Nope, not different. Just better. This was my trial run. I did it specifically so I could have a second chance of rearranging things to fix anything I didn't like on the first try.

I am not a scaper. I love the plants and fish, but I have no imagination to create scapes. If Ingg didn't draw it out for me, I wouldn't have this. The only thing I can take credit for is the driftwood design. Even the lotus being at the base of the driftwood happened because it was too big for where I thought I'd put it, and that spot was the only place I had open! :icon_lol:

My next challenge is to scape my 29g. I'm getting a cabinet, more lighting and injected CO2 for it. And then I'll have to figure out how to scape it! Fun! Fun!

I created a quick stub for my 29g journal which has a picture of what I'm starting with on that tank. Let's just say... anyone want crypt wendtii 'bronze'? I have A LOT of it!


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## helgymatt

Complexity said:


> helgymatt, to keep the lotus compact, trim the roots. Mine is growing like it is because I bought it from a display tank. It had long, long roots! I cut them down to about 3". Then I literally planted them on top of slate and held it down with rocks. The roots finally found their way beyond the slate and started growing into the substrate. I still have rocks holding it down though.


Is there a reason why you planted it on top of slate and not just plant in the substrate? 
Matt


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## TheCryptKeeper

Complexity said:


> PICS! PICS! And more PICS! :hihi:
> 
> I figured I'd grab some final pics before the move. I got some FTS and pictures of each plant in the tank. I'm going to use the plant pictures to keep a list of the plants I have so I can remember all their names (Tex_Gal's idea).
> 
> Plus, I'm going to need some help in figuring out a better placement for the plants. I have too many crammed up together on one side with some shorter/smaller leafed plants being too far back and becoming swallowed. Not to mention that I have NO idea how to tame my Hygro 'sunset'. I think it wants to take over my entire tank!
> 
> Okay, FINALLY, the pictures:
> 
> Full tank shot:


ok... damn.. where have I been! that is awesome.. insanely good job with that tank. I am jealous. I tried to achieve something like that but couldn't do it. sad that you have to tear it down. 

you CAN and SHOULD send those roselines here for safe keeping during the move. Mine will have some buddies! that would be huge school of them. I have about 15 or 16 of them!

again.. nice scape Vicki.


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## bsmith

The tank it looking great. I really do pity you when it com time to tear it down for the move. 

The polygonium Sao Paulo is amazing. Would you like to get rid od some?


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## Complexity

helgymatt said:


> Is there a reason why you planted it on top of slate and not just plant in the substrate?
> Matt


No. It's planted on top of the slate because I couldn't figure out where else to put it! :icon_lol:

When I bought it, it had a lot of nice, tall leaves. So I thought I'd put it amongst the rocks on the right side so it would be sticking up between them. But when I put it there, it was way too big!

Then hurricane Ike took out our power. Next thing I knew, the lotus had pulled up and was floating. I left it like that for a week.

So when I finally got power, the only place that made sense of where to plant it was in my focal point with the driftwood. But the driftwood is screwed into a piece of slate, and it had worked its way too far above the substrate so there wasn't really any substrate for the roots. Since I have a pleco that loves that spot, I grabbed some large, black river rocks to hold it in place.

And voila! What you see is what I got. :hihi:

I trimmed the roots because it's not practical to plant anything with 10" roots. I generally trim most roots during planting when they're very long. It's better for the plants.

When the lotus was pulled out of the show case, I noticed that the roots grew close to the surface and spread out rather than growing deep into the substrate. So I figured they'd do okay with the way I "planted" the lotus over the slate. And they did as they've grown beyond the slate and into the surrounding substrate.

When I move the tank, I will be able to cover the roots with actual substrate instead of just rocks. Even if the slate is too shallow, I can mound the substrate over the roots.

However, back to the concept of trimming the roots. I read that somewhere, can't remember where. But it makes sense. Cutting the roots forces the plant to spend energy regrowing the roots while simultaneously reducing the plant's ability to feed from the roots. Thus, the lotus doesn't spend energy on tall leaves or flowers.

When I get to the point that the lotus is trying to put out surface leaves and just gets too tall in general, I won't pull it up and cut the roots, but I can move the substrate to expose enough roots to clip them back. That should force the plants back into more limited growth. I'll know for sure once the lotus gets to that point in its growth cycle.


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## Complexity

Ken, thanks for the great compliment! And for the so very kind and generous offer to help my torpedo barbs through the move. You are just too kind for words! :hihi:

I'd be happy to have you house my torpedo barbs. They'll make great friends with your 15, making them all one happy family. Of course, that means when I get mine back, they'll be so attached to yours, we'd have to move yours to my tank so none of them get into a fish depression from missing each other. But don't worry. I'll take really good care of them. I'm good with fish emotions. :tongue:



bsmith782 said:


> The tank it looking great. I really do pity you when it com time to tear it down for the move.
> 
> The polygonium Sao Paulo is amazing. Would you like to get rid od some?


Thanks! I'm really not looking forward to tearing it all down.  But then I can rebuilt it back to look even better! :smile:

I'd love to share the P. Sao Paulo once mine gets overgrown. It's one of those plants that's so amazing, you just have to share!

I had put a complete moratorium on selling or even giving away anything from that tank until I felt reasonably certain all of the BBA is gone. The way things are going now, I think I'll have the BBA cleaned out and have some great trimmings for everyone once the plants recover from the move.

Also, keep an eye on Tex_Gal's SNS deals since that's where my P. Sao Paulo came from.


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## Tex Gal

VICKI!!!! People are asking me for plants!!! LOL!! (Have you every thought of going into marketing?...) Most want the Sao Paulo! Unfortunately I'm trying to get a thicker stand so I don't have any to part with right now! In a few weeks I'm sure I will, but not now. 

BTW, another way to keep the lilly short is to just trim the leaves off as they get longer. It's like a dandelion. The plant will start growing shorter and shorter and stay that way for a while. I'm afraid if you keep trimming it's roots you'll never get baby plants. Here's a px of mine with a baby next to it. Look at the bottom stems. You can tell it's two plants.


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## Complexity

Tex_Gal, your plants are so amazing, everyone wants some! And I can't blame them! You sent me some really wonderful plants. Not only did your plants really save my tank, but the plants you sent are awesome!

We'll have to team up with the Sao Paulo. Look at my post right above yours. I sent bsmith to you! :icon_lol:

I have an idea. You can do all the work of trimming, packing and shipping the plants while I'll take a cut of the action for my marketing abilities. Sound like a deal? 

I'm going to get my stand thicker, as well, but I'm sure we'll both have some to share pretty soon.

As far as the lotus having babies, mine already has some. I'm honestly not wanting a bunch of babies, but I won't cut the roots for any that's just starting out. I have some other babies from the lotus Ken sent me. The original lotus didn't make it, but it put out babies that are really small right now, but they're growing. Eventually, they'll be big enough for me to share with others.

BTW, I'm making a list of my plants like you have, and I'm wanting to keep track of who I got them from. The plants you sent me will always be on my list to give away as a care package when anyone is in the same spot I was in when you were so generous to share yours with me. It's my way of honoring your generosity by passing it forward. Your plants will always be special to me because of how and why I got them. :smile:


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## Tex Gal

Complexity said:


> I have an idea. You can do all the work of trimming, packing and shipping the plants while I'll take a cut of the action for my marketing abilities. Sound like a deal?  Sounds like a a true marketer to me!
> 
> I'm going to get my stand thicker, as well, but I'm sure we'll both have some to share pretty soon. I'm sure we will! Once your tank is set up again it will grow like gangbusters! It's one of my favorites too!
> 
> BTW, I'm making a list of my plants like you have, and I'm wanting to keep track of who I got them from. The plants you sent me will always be on my list to give away as a care package when anyone is in the same spot I was in when you were so generous to share yours with me. That's a nice idea. This is the way to do it- not foisted on us by the Gov. We are much better at distribution then the Gov. (Sorry, got a little carried away there! :icon_eek It's my way of honoring your generosity by passing it forward. Your plants will always be special to me because of how and why I got them. :smile: I loved that movie.




Thanks for the kind words. It's so true that if you "cast your bread upon the waters, for after many days it will come back to you." I can't tell you how good God is to me. Everytime I turn around He is blessing me again! :icon_mrgr


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## Complexity

Tex Gal said:


> I can't tell you how good God is to me. Everytime I turn around He is blessing me again! :icon_mrgr


Maybe that's because you give so much. The more you give, the more you receive. :smile:


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## HoustonFishFanatic

Complexity said:


> PICS! PICS! And more PICS! :hihi:
> 
> I figured I'd grab some final pics before the move. I got some FTS and pictures of each plant in the tank. I'm going to use the plant pictures to keep a list of the plants I have so I can remember all their names (Tex_Gal's idea).
> 
> Plus, I'm going to need some help in figuring out a better placement for the plants. I have too many crammed up together on one side with some shorter/smaller leafed plants being too far back and becoming swallowed. Not to mention that I have NO idea how to tame my Hygro 'sunset'. I think it wants to take over my entire tank!
> 
> Okay, FINALLY, the pictures:
> 
> Full tank shot:


Vicki,The tank is looking great!

Bhushan


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## CobraGuppy

Amazing tank! So colourful and everything is thriving.

Your polygonum "Sao Paulo" is so beautiful! How did you get it like that? Mines is like barely a purplish color lol.


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## Complexity

Thanks you, both! :smile:

Harry, what I did as open the bag. Rinse the plants. Float them in the water while planting them. Wait. And now they're what you see.

I did nothing! It just happened. I can only attribute it to good ferts, CO2 and lights. I also have some root tabs in the substrate, but I don't know if that made any difference.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's the light. While the other plants are really crowded, the Sao Paulo has lots of space for the light to reach all of its leaves. But that's just a guess.


----------



## captain_bu

Hey Vicki

Tank is looking great! My experience with hygro sunset is that it grows better in a low-tech tank. As soon as I started injecting CO2 mine lost all of the pink color and didn't grow as well either. When I was just dosing Excel along with EI it had a nice pink color and grew like mad. I broke down my tank and changed out the substrate with aqua soil about a month ago. I set up an old tank for my fish to stay in during the cycle and threw in whichever plants were not going to be planted in the new tank including my sunset hygro. Within a week of pretty much neglecting it, 4-5 hour photoperiods, no ferts, no excel, the tops of the sunset hygro turned dark reddish pink...much more intense color than I have ever gotten from this plant. Weird...


----------



## Complexity

Okay, that makes a lot of sense. It seemed to me that the lower growth looked better than the top growth which is also what gets the most light, is right in front of the spray bar for my CO2 and is in the area where I dose my ferts. None of the growth had the color everyone talks about. In fact, it's a light pale green with a little pink color in the lower leaves.

This would have been the perfect plant for my 29g except I just ordered everything to make it high tech, but a notch down from my 75g.

But I am looking for something for my RCS tank which is definitely low tech. I'm not sure that tank has enough light, though, but I certainly can give it a try.

Thanks for the info! That really helps!

BTW, what a change from when I first came to this board when you gave me so much help! All that help paid off. It's taken me a little time, but I think I'm getting there. I still have your original PMs where you helped me so much. :smile:


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## Characins

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How do you do that!!!

That tank is insane!!!!

Amazing, amazing, amazing job, one of the best tanks I have ever seen, ever!

I'm going to go read through every post you've ever made in a hope that some of your skill will rub off on me. 

AWESOME


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## Complexity

Wow, thank you for the very nice compliment! But I think if you tried to read all of my posts, your fish and plants would all be dead by the time you got to the end! :icon_lol:

There's really not much to it. As long as you have the right equipment for the lights and CO2 and dose the ferts regularly, your tank should look just as good. The plants just grow themselves.


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## Characins

LOL, that may be true!

Not just the plants themselves, but the whole aquascaping. Its beautiful, and very inspirational.

Keep it up!


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## Complexity

Thank you! I had help with the design. I created the driftwood idea and knew where I wanted it, and then Ingg did a design drawing for me when I finally got my rocks. I stuck to his design pretty much until I kept getting more plants. At that point, I just put them wherever I could.

I'll be breaking the entire tank down on Wednesday to have it moved to my house. When I put it back together, I'm going to try to do a better job with plant placement.


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## Characins

Oh, hope the move goes well!

I would cry if something happened to your tank!


Can't wait to see what the new aquascape looks like!
Think you could aquascape my tank?


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## Complexity

Don't worry, all will go well. I'd hate to see you cry! :hihi:

I'll have the actual furniture movers move my smaller tanks (mostly empty except some plants) tomorrow so I can get them set up at my house. Then I'll tear down my 75g on Wednesday and move the fish and plants to those smaller tanks in my house. That way I won't have to worry about the fish. Each specific fish is assigned to a specific tank which spreads them around pretty good.

On Thursday, I'm having people from a LFS (Fish Ranch for those in my area) move my actual tank. I don't want general movers handling it. Also, Mike, the owner of the LFS will ensure that my tank is properly leveled at my house.

Once that's done, then it's just a matter of putting it all back together. Since I'm hoping to completely eradicate the last remnants of BBA in the tank, I'm going to be sterilizing all the equipment before reinstalling it. I already have lots of StartRight (the predecessor of Bio-Spira) ready to go to jump start the tank again.

I think I have it all planned out pretty good. But you never know. Things do happen sometimes. I'm really not looking forward to having to tear it all down on Wednesday, but I'm exciting about getting it in my house finally.


----------



## Complexity

Characins said:


> Can't wait to see what the new aquascape looks like!
> Think you could aquascape my tank?


I'll use the same design, but with the plants placed better.

You don't want me to scape your tank. I'm scape challenged! Remember, I had help on this scape.


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## eyebeatbadgers

Things are looking good. The yellow leaves of Marselia are just the newer ones. Once they mature, you get the green color. If the old leaves are yellowing, then you have problems. Fertilizer tabs for this plant aren't necessary, water column dosing works just fine.


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## Complexity

Oh! I didn't realize they started out yellow. But now that I look at it, I can see it. I just figured any yellow leaf (among green ones) indicated something was missing. But if it doesn't need anything in the substrate, then I'll not worry about it. It's certainly getting enough ferts each day.

The only thing that I need to do that might help it some is to start dosing iron. I completely forgot to add iron yesterday, but I'll add some tomorrow. Otherwise, the rate of growth for it and for all my other plants confirms that they're happy with the ferts and CO2.

I've managed to inch the CO2 even higher. The pH controller has gone from 7.1 to 6.8 today! That's the first time I got it that low (meaning high CO2). The fish are doing great. So that means I have dropped the pH by 1.2 points (from my normal 8.0 pH) so I should have hit and even surpassed the 30ppm target. Bye-bye BBA! :biggrin:


----------



## Church

So that would explain why every time I see a nice marselia foreground, there are always flecks of yellow here and there! Thanks for the info, eyebeatbadgers.

Complexity, your tank is looking awesome!


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Church! :smile:

I've noticed the yellow in other people's tanks, as well. I don't know that I'm all that crazy about the yellow, but it'll probably look good once it all fills in. Add some character to the carpet of green.


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## Bk828

Wow Complex you have an amazing tank with more colors than the rainbow lol


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## Complexity

Thank you! :smile: Red has always been my favorite color in a scape, be it an aquascape or a landscape. In fact, the reds is what drove me to go with a high tech tank.

I'm going to convert my 20L to a 29g and go high tech with it, too. I have no scape design planned yet, but I'll definitely add some red color in it somewhere.


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## cah925

:eek5: :bounce::bounce::bounce: I haven't seen your tank since the Hurricane disaster, and all I can say is WOW! Your tank speaks to me on so many levels. You have done an absolutely wonderful job with the colors, textures, leaf variations, everything. roud:


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## Complexity

Thank you! :smile:

I'd love to take credit for the variety of plants, but about half of them came from Tex Gal. She sent me a care package to help my tank recover from the hurricane, and the plants she sent were wonderful! I have also received some great plants as extras in many of my SNS purchases.

After finally turning on my bright lights, raising the CO2 as high as I can get it, and being very good at dosing my ferts, the plants took off like rockets!

I was worried if the plants would have enough time to get healthy enough for the big move, and I think I can put that worry to rest. The plant growth is crazy! Much more than I ever dreamed.


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## mizu-chan

Wow, I have to say that this tank is simply beautiful in every way. 
You've done a wonderful job on this tank Complexity, and I can't wait for it to grow even more. :thumbsup:

Are you enjoying the nice weather we've been having?


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## Complexity

Thank you, Miza-chan!

The weather here is fabulous right now! I love our weather at this time of year.

I haven't had much chance to be out enjoying it since I'm preparing to move tomorrow. In fact, I should be working on getting things ready, but I'm being very lazy at the moment. I'll be busy enough later in the week when I have to break my tank down and then rebuild it. Do you think movers would mind moving my dirty clothes if I don't wash them? :icon_lol:


----------



## mizu-chan

I'm sure they wouldn't mind the least bit :hihi:
When I moved here from England the decided to pack the trash that was in our trashcans.


----------



## Karackle

hahaha they packed your trash?! 

Vicki - If it were me, I'd just throw my dirty clothes in a laundry bag / hamper and call them "packed"!  :hihi: 

Good luck with the big move over the next couple of days!


----------



## MikeS

Wow, I see I have missed a bunch. Good luck with the move.


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## Characins

Best of luck!
Hope everything works out for you!


----------



## Complexity

This has so far been the move from hell.

The movers scheduled me for 4 hours. They showed up only 30 minutes late which was good, but they didn't have packing supplies. Long story short, I just paid for 11 hours moving services, do not have everything where they were supposed to put it (including having large TVs on the floor and stuff in my Suburban that I now have to unload and carry in myself).

The biggest problem is that I am now about 24 hours behind in my schedule. Yesterday, I was supposed to get all my smaller tanks set up and ready for the fish. Then, I was supposed to get up bright and early this morning, buy enough buckets or tubs to move the fish, and then spend the day pulling out the fish and plants. Then I would move that all to my smaller tanks at the house. Then, I could go back to the apartment to disconnect everything and clean up so the tank would be ready to move. It's 1:30pm and NONE of that has been done! Plus, I'm exhausted!

Oh, and if that's not enough... I just called the LFS that's supposed to move my tank tomorrow to confirm things, and their phone number is "temporarily disconnected"! :icon_eek: Will they even show up? I talked to the guy on Monday, and all was fine. But now this? I can't even call him to tell him that I might not have the tank as ready as I had hoped.

I'm feeling very frustrated. It'll all come together eventually, but this is not how I had planned anything.


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## cah925

I can't think of a time when moving was ever easy or went as planned. Just do what you can each day and eventually it will all come together.


----------



## MrJG

I really hope things come together for you. Hang in there! Moving = never fun.


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## Characins

Ouch, that's unfortunate.

Hang in there, everything will work out in the end.


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## mizu-chan

Hey Complexity, if you ever need a hand just let me know. I don't think I'm that far away, and I can help with moving anything, or just lending a few buckets. 
Really just let me know! I know how troublesome moving can be sometimes.
Hope everything is going okay.


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## Karackle

Hey Vicki, I'm sorry it's not going as smoothly as you planned! But I agree, just take it a day at a time and do what you can, moving is always exhausting and never fun, but I'm sure things will fall into place! Just don't try to rush it, I've always found that rushing something causes me to make more mistakes making it take longer than it would if I'd stayed calm and not rushed despite a time crunch. The last thing you want to do is drop a tank or a bucket full of fish because you were trying to rush! 

Good luck!!!


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## captain_bu

Vicki

Sorry to hear the move is not going as expected... I am not so sure it ever does 100%. Did the movers give you any type of binding estimate for the cost of the move? When I moved into my house the person who gave me the estimate seriously underestimated the amount of time it would take. After everything was moved and I went to pay they told me that the cost went over and I could either pay the estimated price (which they had guaranteed) or the actual cost. Naturally I chose to pay the lower amount. 
Your tanks will be fine, it was always going to be a lot of work to move them. Now it will just take a bit longer to get everything in place. The store you are paying to move the tanks is probably making a good buck for the service. It is hard to make money owning an aquarium shop so it is in their best interest to show up on time, on the right day and not alienate a customer. Worst case scenario may be that you might have to pay them a little extra if everything isn't ready to move on time. I doubt they will complain about being paid extra for time spent watching you get the tank ready and you may even end up with some helping hands for a part of the move you didn't expect to have help for. 

Good luck!


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## Complexity

mizu-chan said:


> Hey Complexity, if you ever need a hand just let me know. I don't think I'm that far away, and I can help with moving anything, or just lending a few buckets.
> Really just let me know! I know how troublesome moving can be sometimes.
> Hope everything is going okay.


I know how you can help me. Take huge cuttings from my plants!  Honestly, these plants are insane. There is no way I'll be able to plant them all, especially as overgrown as they are, and I don't have time to be doing trades and shipping. So if you want some plants, just let me know!


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## Complexity

Okay, updating my journal.

Today was move day, but instead of moving the tank, I moved into panic mode. I was way behind on my schedule thanks to some movers from hell (Palazzo xx) so I couldn't break down my tank on time. Then, when I tried to call the LFS that's moving my tank, their number was "temporarily disconnected". This morning, the phone rang... and rang and rang and rang! I couldn't get anyone to answer until 10:40am which was 40 minutes passed when the tank movers were supposed to be here. I really freaked. So I rushed to post an emergency thread for movers!

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...8-emergency-need-tank-movers-now-houston.html

Fortunately, Mike finally called and we could reschedule for tomorrow which really helps me.

So now I'm in the process of pulling out the plants. I have about 2/3rds done. I'm trying to not get the tank too cloudy, but it's just not possible to stir up substrate and not get mulm into the water column.

Once I get all the plants and decor out, it'll be time to get the fish. If the filters can't clean the water, I'll do a water change to help them out. And then the process of trying to catch a bunch of fast moving fish in a large tank. Oh, what joy! And I'll need to do it reasonably fast so the first fish I catch aren't out of the tank for too long.

I bought some plastic shoe box containers that I think will work well for transporting the fish. The lids have a nice lock on them and they stack well.

I already have all the temporary tanks ready at my house so once I get all the fish out, I'll take them to my house and they can go into tanks with fresh, clean water.

I'm treating my plants as if I was shipping them. I figure if I received these plants by shipping, then it shouldn't be a problem to do that now.

Some of the plants have grown to an insane size! When it's time to plant them in my tank, I'll cut out what I want to plant and then see if I can find some people who would like them. 

Anyway, still a lot of work to do so I'll be up late, but now I get to do it calmly and carefully which is what I wanted. :smile:


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## CobraGuppy

That is some trouble you have been having :icon_eek: 

Good to know everything has been figure out :thumbsup:

Are you going to be keeping your old scape?


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## Complexity

CobraGuppy said:


> Are you going to be keeping your old scape?


Definitely! I'll tweak it here and there, mostly doing a better job of plant placement, but I _just_ got that scape to grow in so I don't want to change it yet.


----------



## Complexity

Okay, all fish are in their temporary tanks. The only thing I didn't get all of were my amanos. It's funny because I knew I put in something like 40-50 of them in the tank, but I saw so few that I was worried they were dying out. Once I removed the plants and fish, I had amanos everywhere! I couldn't possibly catch them all so I took what I could because I needed to get the fish moved.

They are all very stressed, but I hope they'll be okay. I lost one SAE. He jumped out when I was trying to acclimate their water. I didn't see him in time. I'm really sad to lose him.

The tank looks like a disaster hit it. It was so hard to catch the fish, I had to remove most of the water and mound up the substrate like a dam to cut the tank in half. And even then, it was hard to get them.

I wish I was able to acclimate them more, but they were freaking out too much. So I did what I could. Only about 30 minutes.

The Pelvicachromis are so stressed, I can't tell by their colors which is which. I hope I paired them up right. Each pair is in their own 5g tank with the one without a mate is by himself. I didn't want any of the pairs to be with each other in such a small tank.

I now have to go back to the apartment and try to get the rest of the amanos, and then remove the substrate. Then I want to clean the tank and put a background on it (I'll be putting it on the front and then flip the tank around).

I don't think I'll be able to get everything cleaned before the big move, but as long as I get the substrate out, get the tank cleaned up, and get the background on, I can clean the filters and all after they're moved here.

It's passed 11pm, and I'm so tired. I'll be glad when this is over.


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## mizu-chan

Complexity said:


> I know how you can help me. Take huge cuttings from my plants!  Honestly, these plants are insane. There is no way I'll be able to plant them all, especially as overgrown as they are, and I don't have time to be doing trades and shipping. So if you want some plants, just let me know!


Haha, wow if this is the way I can help then I _suppose _I might be able to :hihi: lol. But yeah sure I would love to snatch up some of your cuttings. With your beautiful tank how could I resist? Let me know whenever you have time! Thanks.


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## Tex Gal

So sorry Vicki. Don't worry they will be alright! Your plants will fare fine too! Besides, what difference does it make - You have to move!!!! Deep breaths my friend!


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## Complexity

mizu-chan said:


> But yeah sure I would love to snatch up some of your cuttings..


Sounds good to me! But I will give you fair warning. I have been fighting BBA in that tank. I don't see it on the plants (other than one particular crypt that it seems to favor), but I have refused to give out any cuttings because I don't want anyone to get BBA from my plants. I have it knocked back so far that I think it's okay now, but I want to be sure you know there is a risk of transferring BBA to your tank.

I hope to be planting this weekend. By then, I'll have cuttings available.

I'm really, really tired. And I sat down long enough to realize, when I got up, that my back is killing me! But I have to go back and at least get the amanos out. They have no filtration so I can't risk having them die.

So back to the apartment I go to work on the tank some more.


----------



## Complexity

Tex Gal said:


> So sorry Vicki. Don't worry they will be alright! Your plants will fare fine too! Besides, what difference does it make - You have to move!!!! Deep breaths my friend!


Yup, and I knew when I bought and built up the tank that I'd be moving it.

It won't be long before I'll have it setup and start enjoying it again. :smile:


----------



## Characins

LOL, I'll help out as much as I can! I already have a bit of bba so I don't mind! Think you could possibly ship to Canada? I'd love to have some of your plants. :fish:


Glad to hear you got most everything over safely. Don't worry, your tank will be looking amazing again in no time!


----------



## mizu-chan

Complexity said:


> Sounds good to me! But I will give you fair warning. I have been fighting BBA in that tank.


I think I will test it out anyways. And if I get BBA then it's my fault for not listening. :hihi:
But yeah let me know. I hope your not over exhorting yourself too much from this move. Get lots of rest!


----------



## Complexity

Characins, I'd love to send you some, but I don't want to ship anything right now. I don't have the time. If anyone can come over to grab the trimmings, that'll work.

mizu-chan, I'll let you know when I get my plants back in and have some clippings available. I have a LOT of work to do so I'm thinking Sunday or even Monday being the earliest. This whole week has been off-schedule so I'm running late, but I can't keep the plants out of the tank for too long or they'll die.


----------



## Complexity

Update on the move. My tanks are in my house! :smile: It's so funny because the 75g looks huge in my bedroom with the 20Long looking miniature in the living room. I may regret where I put them, but we'll see over time.

It was amazing to see how much stuff I have connected to my 75g tank. Once I got it all pulled out, it took up a huge amount of space! Then I broke down my 20L (but left the substrate and plants in it), and that took up only a tiny bit of space. The difference was amazing!

So the stand, tank and canopy is set up in my bedroom, but I have a lot of work to do to get it ready. I want to clean it since it's empty. I didn't get the background on so I'm going to try to do that, if possible. Then hook everything up to the tank with just water. Drain it, and begin scaping.

While it all seems very simple and basic, there's just so much equipment to reconnect and the tank is so large (hard to reach in places) that it takes me much longer than I have expected.

I'm really excited about getting my tank put back together. I can't wait to be able to enjoy my plants and fish again!


----------



## lauraleellbp

I look forward to the pics!

I'm glad you planned things through so well, Vicki, and that things finally seem to be working out OK- I HATE moving.


----------



## Characins

Complexity said:


> Characins, I'd love to send you some, but I don't want to ship anything right now.


No problem! I don't want to inconvience you, don't worry about it!



> My tanks are in my house!


Congrats!

The hardest is over!
I can't wait for the new pics!


----------



## Complexity

I've moved! I'm officially out of my apartment 100% and back at home. It feels good to be home, but everything's such a mess, I can barely turn around.

I haven't set up the tank yet. Been too busy and then way too tired to do it. That's on my agenda for tomorrow. I need to get the plants back in so they won't die.

I have to figure out my electricals, clean the tank, get new hoses and then figure out how to get a background on since I didn't have a chance to do it earlier.

Not much to report yet other than I'm here and hope to get the tank setup tomorrow. :smile:


----------



## @[email protected]

good luck. 
and when you start to get fustrated and annoyed and upset about how much work it is, just remember that all of us are here glad we dont have to. :biggrin:


----------



## Complexity

LOL! Thanks for the support, Mark! :hihi:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Glad to hear that you are moved... now no more wining.. get that tank up! We want pics dammit! 

can't wait to see how it turns out again


----------



## Complexity

Your wish is my command... or is that scape?

Don't get into too much of a hurry for those pics. I can't find my camera in the menagerie of unmarked boxes, thanks to the movers from hell!

BTW, found out yesterday while doing final clean-up of the apartment that the movers completely skipped over an entire cabinet and 3 drawers in my kitchen! It's not as if that kitchen was big, either. Unbelievable!

The good news is that the cabinet they missed had a lot of my aquarium supplies in it. So at least I know where _those_ supplies are!


----------



## Karackle

glad to hear you got everything moved in ok! Good luck with setting it back up! I can't wait to see pictures!  

Good luck with the rest of the unpacking too, I hate that feeling of being surrounded by boxes all the time!


----------



## Characins

I say dump everything into a big pile in the living room and just come and get from it what you need as you need it. 

Can't wait to see the pics, and good luck!


----------



## A Hill

The prior pictures look as good as ever! Beautiful reds in there.

And that stem, I believe it is vietnam, I've got a bunch I grew in low light in my 10g and its much more green/white/yellow and some in my 55g which is more normal colored.

Have fun putting it back together!

-Andrew


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Andrew! That was very nice of you to say. :smile: Not sure if the Rotala will make it so it can be definitely identified, but it's not completely dead yet. It actually made it through the move much better than I had expected.


----------



## CL

So, when do you think that you will set up the tank?


----------



## Complexity

Okay, it's UPDATE TIME! The move is over, but it did not go off anywhere near as smoothly as I had hoped.

The biggest problem began with the movers from hell, and everything after that was affected like a row of dominoes.

I did not get my 75g up and running as fast as I wanted or expected. Everything took much longer than I had planned. For example, when I needed a screwdriver, I couldn't find one because the movers didn't mark the boxes and mixed things together in a weird way (something from the living room in a box with shoes, for example). So a whole lot of my time was spent looking through unmarked boxes that were stacked 3 deep with no space in between (no rows). So just getting to the boxes was a balancing act of tiptoeing between small gaps I could make between the boxes.

So I need to clean the tank? Forget about any of my scrubbers. Couldn't find them. Need Prime? With a total of 4 bottles, it took me over a day to find any. Want to use my python? First, I had to clean it up from the dirt that fell out of a pot plant they mixed in the box (don't ask why; makes no sense to me!).

But, finally, I got the tank cleaned out and was able to fill it with water. At that point, I could begin turning on filters. However, I wanted to clean them out to do my best to get rid of any BBA lurking in them. I also wanted to reconfigure the plumbing which required that I create a connector from two other pieces cut and glued together. So that had to dry. I needed to also cut some pipes, but couldn't find any of my sanding tools. I ended up having to use a fingernail file! But I got the job done. Two days later, I finally found my sanding tools.

Another thing I wanted to do was reconfigure my electrical wires. A long time ago, a custom electrical box was considered by someone else on here, but life got in the way, leaving no time to build it. So I wanted to get some form of order with my electrical connections. I finally found three strip outlets that could be mounted on the tank, found 3 timers, and then configured everything the way I wanted. However, I'm already going to change it because I found something I like much better last night that I think will work even better. But at least I have the right idea going (that is, after I finally found my drill and screws which I found 2 days apart from each other).

As a result, I got to the point in which I knew the tank was going to take much longer than I had hoped to get setup so I knew I'd probably lose some plants. This was confirmed when they started smelling and I had to put them outside. When I finally had everything set up so I could plant the plants, I had lost a large number of the plants I had. Basically, everything that I had that had any red coloring was dead. The only exception was my Red Tiger Lotus which pulled through better than I had imagined. All my crypts did great, as did the wisteria and moneywort. My Hygro 'Sunset' was in really bad shape, but alive, and it's growing new shoots that I can plant later so it will recover. I also have a few shoots left of the giant baby tears that I think will survive. It looks like all my Marsilea minuta is dead, but I haven't given up on it completely.

So now I get to start over again with my favorite plants. And, as fate would have it, when I finally felt I was ready to buy some more plants, I came here only 1 hour after the SNS forum was closed. So yet more time delays.

I do have some really good news, though. I did not lose one single fish in the move! Well, I did lose a couple amanos that jumped out without me seeing them, and one SAE jumped out when he was being acclimated to his holding tank. But none of the fish or inverts died while in their holding tanks!

These tanks were completely uncycled. I didn't have enough outlets to plug in everything so most tanks were left on the floor with no lights. I also didn't feed the fish the entire time in order to keep the ammonia levels as low as possible. I had never dreamed this would go on for so long!

Yesterday was the first day I was able to put all my fish and inverts back into the 75g. A lot were, of course, stressed by the move, but they all seem to have made it just fine. I was also happy to find that none of the Pelvicachromis had killed their partners in the small 5g holding tanks they were in.

I decided to count some of my fish and inverts to get an idea of their survival rate in my tank. I had thought a lot of my amanos had died because I couldn't see them all in the tank. Turns out, the survival rate is very high!

So here's my fauna list and count:

55 Amano Shrimp
21 Cardinal Tetras
17 Nerite Snails
14 Malaysian Trumpet Snails
12 Guppies
8 Torpedo Barbs
4 Pelvicachromis (the 5th was moved to the 20Long tank)

Once the tank stabilizes, I'd like to add a few more specimin fish and maybe one other schooling fish.

As far as the tank cycling, I poured 3 bottles of Tetra's StartRight bacterial product into the tank. Each bottle is for 30 gallons so 3 was more than the recommended amount for a 75g tank. I won't know how well it worked for a few days, but I'm watching things closely.

Oh, and I did change my substrate so guess what happened to my old substrate? I had it in several baggies, and when the LFS moved my tank, we agreed to set the baggies on my back patio. The next morning, I woke up to about 4 ripped bags with substrate and plastic strewn everywhere! It was only then that I realized that the raccoons in our area had to have smelled the fish smell and tried to eat it. Of course, those bags and the substrate in them got tossed to the trash.

So while it took me longer than I had wanted, it's finally up and running with the fish back in. My Pelvicachromis were very shy at first, but they're beginning to swim around some now so I think they'll be fine.

No pictures yet. I still can't find my camera! But when I do, I'll get some pictures. The tank is no where as nice as it was before the move, but that just means it'll be that much more exciting when I get some new plants and watch them grow!


----------



## Complexity

clwatkins10 said:


> So, when do you think that you will set up the tank?


Yesterday. :tongue:


----------



## @[email protected]

your enormous posts are pretty intimidating. 

which plants do you need? im sure plenty of people on here would be willing to give them to you. i only have 2 established plants ATM, but if you need either of them, i can give them to you for shipping.


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## cah925

Geez, you had to go through a lot and it looks like you have some more to go through yet. Glad to hear the animals made it even though the plants are iffy at best. Good luck in the hunt for your camera. I can't wait to see some pics later. I hope you can recreate the beauty of the last scape you had.


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## Complexity

@[email protected] said:


> your enormous posts are pretty intimidating.


LOL! I understand. Just read what you want and skip the rest. It's just my nature to be highly detailed, but I know it's not for everyone. :smile:



> which plants do you need? im sure plenty of people on here would be willing to give them to you. i only have 2 established plants ATM, but if you need either of them, i can give them to you for shipping.


I mainly want red plants again. I'm willing to pay for them. I just need to find them.

There are a few I will definitely try to get, but I'm pretty open to most plants. I'm a nut for red plants so I like just about all of them.

Given that our SNS is currently disabled, I posted a WTB thread at APC:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?t=57107



cah925 said:


> Geez, you had to go through a lot and it looks like you have some more to go through yet. Glad to hear the animals made it even though the plants are iffy at best. Good luck in the hunt for your camera. I can't wait to see some pics later. I hope you can recreate the beauty of the last scape you had.


I'm hoping to recreate the beauty I had before, too. I miss the way it looked. But then I also keep in mind how the tank looked just after the power outage from Hurricane Ike and how quickly it grew once I got the CO2, ferts and lighting figured out. I have some Blyxa Japonica that I had bought before the move, but weren't shipped until later that already seem pretty happy in the tank. They're already pearling! So I feel hopeful that things will grow well once I get some more plants.


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## Characins

Things will clear up, you can put things back to the way they were and more.

I know you can do it, it just takes time.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Characins. I'm feeling okay with the plants dying. I didn't want it to happen, of course, but it's not the end of the world.

I just ordered some plants from aquariumplants.com that should be fun. But I sure miss the SNS forum!


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## Hungry Wendigo

I haven't been around these forums long, but what time I have spent on them has been spent lurking in this forum and yours is (or, _was_) without a doubt my favorite of the tanks I've seen. The plants, the layout, the fish; everything. I really hope you're able to get it all back up and running. Good luck.

I'm in love with your denisonii barbs, how are they handling the move? I'm stocking my first planted tank at the moment and I just discovered that a few peaceful species of barb exist. My LFS has a few odessa barbs, which are also supposed to be less aggressive, have you seen these?


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## Complexity

Welcome to TPT, Hungry! Nice to have you join us. And thank you for the really nice compliment. I'm using the same scape design so it should come out about the same. Some of the plants may change, but I fully intend on using some of the plants I had before, as well.

The Denison (torpedo) Barbs did very well with the move. It was a bit hard on all the fish because they were in the holding tanks longer than I had planned, but after being back in the tank for 24 hours, they're all behaving like normal. The Denison Barbs were highly stressed when I moved them, sitting at the bottom, shivering and gasping, but in an hour or so, they started to swim around and group back together. They ate okay last night, but tonight, they were like piranhas! They are very hearty feeders when the food is first put in the tank.

I haven't seen the Odessa Barbs yet, but I just looked them up. They're very pretty, especially the male! I looked them up on LiveAquaria.com, and they're listing them as semi-aggressive and comment that they may nip fins. But then my Pelvicachromis are also semi-aggressive and will kill other fish, but so far, they haven't harmed anything (except one female Pelvicachromis that was, apparently, rejected from the start). So sometimes it's a matter of their personalities and environment.

I hope you get some Denison Barbs one day! They're really pretty fish in the tank.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I will donate some plants to you when they are ready.. I don't have them going great yet because of the topsoil change.. but it will in the next few weeks.


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## Complexity

Ken (or it that Barbara? :hihi, that is so nice of you. I think I'm about to get it all covered. With the SNS forum down here, coupled with no response to my WTB thread on APC, I decided to just buy some plants the old fashioned way. So I placed an order on AquariumPlants.com. Here's what I ordered:

1 of : Limnophila ‘hippuroides’ (Limnophila hippuroides)
1 of : Lloydiella, Golden (Lysimachia nummularia)
1 of : Ludwigia Peruensis (Ludwigia peruensis)
1 of : Ludwigia, Broad Leaf (Ludwigia repens)
1 of : Myriophyllum tuberculatum
1 of : Pogostemon stellata (Eusteralis)
1 of : Rotala Indica (Rotala roundifolia)
1 of : Telanthera Rosefolia (Alternanthera reineckii)
1 of : Vals, Contortion (Vallisneria asiatica) 10 Plants per order

Surely, from all of those, I can find some nice red plants. And I'm still wanting to get some more Polygonum 'Sao Paulo' from Tex Gal. Of all the plants I lost, that one was my favorite. Also, lescarpenter was very kind in offering some of his plants to me at no charge (I'll get to return the favor later with some of my new plants). So I think I'll end up with more plants than I'll know what to do with.

It was hard enough to accept free plants when hurricane Ike took out the power, but that was a situation I had no control over. But the move was completely in my control. I could have found some way to float those plants long before they died. I just didn't do it. My fault so my responsibility to replace the plants. It's just right in my mind.

So... with two day air shipping, I think the plants should arrive next Wednesday. I'll definitely have some fun planting when they come in! I can't wait to see what the plants will look like in my tank.


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## TheCryptKeeper

the sao paulo I have too.. it is starting to grow out of control.. so if I have some coming up soon.. i will hook you up with some.

would you want some of the low growing sunset hygro I have? I would send some your way if you like. LMK.. Barbaratorpedoken


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## Complexity

Oh, you know I'd LOVE to get my hands on some Sao Paulo again! I was hitting up Tex Gal for some more, but she took off to have a great time giving away lots of her cuttings at the AGA convention, leaving me with Sao Paulo withdrawals. :tongue: Let me know when you have some clippings available and we'll work something out. I'm hoping I can share some of the plants I just ordered when they grow out so we can all enjoy a wide variety of plants for our tanks.

Oh, the low grow sunset... If it's truly low grow and not the regular one that's just trimmed low, I'm interested. Otherwise, I have the regular Hygro 'sunset'. It's coming back very nicely so that's a plant I will definitely be able to save. Let me know if your sunset plants are the same or different from what I have.

Also, look at the list of what I just ordered and let me know if there's anything on the list you'd like. Obviously, I won't have cuttings right away, but if they take off as well as my previous plants, it won't be long before I'll have some available.


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## Complexity

Torpedobarb said:


> Barbaratorpedoken


Are you sure that's not KenTorpedoedBarbara? :hihi:


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## TheCryptKeeper

I must have a target on my back.. as everyone is shooting their "torpedo's at me"

hahaha ha ha hh aaaaa.. ok.. bad joke.

I think everyone has had a advanced college course.. SMARTASS 101! in room # BLAH BLAH BLAH! :hihi:


----------



## Complexity

Torpedobarb said:


> hahaha ha ha hh aaaaa.. ok.. bad joke.


I certainly can't disagree with you on this one! :hihi:



> I think everyone has had a advanced college course.. SMARTASS 101! in room # BLAH BLAH BLAH! :hihi:


What's really funny is how it always seems to follow you, no matter where you go, from thread to thread, with each person arriving at the same thoughts.

Maybe it's not smartass school. Maybe it's a conspiracy against you?

But there's no need for paranoia. That would mean you fear something that's not true, and in this case, it just may be true! :tongue:


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## Karackle

Hey Vicki, 

I'm sorry to hear you ran into more troubles (darn those movers and putting stuff in random boxes!!!) 

But I'm so glad to hear you got the tank up and running again and that your fish did well! I'd offer some plants, but it sounds like you got it covered and I don't have much to spare other than possibly some flame moss if you want it! Most things grow quite slowly in my tanks  

Do let me know if you'd like some of my powder mix for the bamboo shrimp though! I'd be happy to send you some if you just cover shipping!  

Can't wait til you find your camera and get some pics posted!


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## lauraleellbp

Torpedobarb said:


> I must have a target on my back.. as everyone is shooting their "torpedo's at me"
> 
> hahaha ha ha hh aaaaa.. ok.. bad joke.
> 
> I think everyone has had a advanced college course.. SMARTASS 101! in room # BLAH BLAH BLAH! :hihi:


We only pick on people we like (and who wear targets on their backs... :icon_mrgr)

Looking forward to seeing the new reincarnation soon, Vicki, your last one was so amazing! You've definitely persisted through some really really frustrating stuff to get this far! You go, girl! roud:


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## Complexity

Thanks to both of you! Karackle, your offer is so wonderful on the Bamboo Shrimp food. But I think I'll be okay. I have enough tiny foods and grinders to powderize just about anything. I started doing this for my Boraras brigittaes and B. maculatus.

As far as plants, I'm getting so many, I know I'll have problems finding places to plant them all. So I'll need to find homes for some (or at least find homes for clippings). People have been so generous to me, I'm going to enjoy returning the favor!

LL, no kidding on the frustration! But it's all been a learning experience which will serve me well this time around. I'm not expecting any hurricanes and have no moves planned for the next decade so I should be good now.

Actually, the worst part of the plants dying is that many of them came from people I really enjoy. Every time I'd see one of the plants, I'd think of the people from which I either bought them or received as a gift or an extra in a plant deal. There was a part of each person attached to those plants. But at the same time, at least I have no reason to go through any of that again so plants I get from anyone now should stay with me for a long, long time!

No pics yet. I still have to rummage through the boxes to figure out where they put my camera. It's going to be sad to see the condition of the tank right now, but it'll also be fun to watch it blossom back into a vibrant, lush tank. I hope it will encourage others who have had setbacks.


----------



## @[email protected]

i have r. vietnam thats doing pretty well. i could probably ship out next weekend. its got golden leaves and red tips. 
i also have R. macrandra, R. wallichi, and R. rotundifolia; but all unestablished. i could send them in a month or so if you still want any of them.

i dont know if you would want lilleaosis mauritius (did i spell that right?) its narrow leaf micro sword, and some crypt wendtii (just green, green and brown, and just brown). if you want any of those, i can also send them out next weekend, or wednesday if you dont want the rotala.


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## Complexity

You are so kind, Marko! Thank you so much for the offer. I may take you up on some of the plants.

To my complete surprise, the barely alive twigs of R. vietnam appears to be growing! I thought that one would be one of the first plants to die. So now it's a bit of a challenge to bring that plant from the brink of death into a thriving plant. But it still could die so I won't rule out getting more quiet yet.

I've ordered R. roundifolia from aquariumplants.com. I've found some R. macrandra 'Narrow Leaf' from someone on APC, but I don't have the regular R. macrandra or the R. wallichi. Someone is offering me both if I send a prelabeled and prestamped box to him, but that's kind of silly and doubles the shipping price.

You were close enough on the spelling of Lilaeopsis mauritius (google was able to give me the correct spelling). This plant looks very interesting! How tall has it grown in your tank? I just might be interested in getting some of this!

I have lots of C. wendtii 'bronze'. Too much, in fact. I'll have to get rid of some of it when I start scaping my 29g. But thanks so much for the offer! Crypts are great plants!

I think I would like to take you up on your offer of the R. vietnam and the narrow leaf micro sword on one condition. You MUST let me send you some of my plants once I get them and they grow enough for clippings. Deal? If so, send me a PM with the details. :smile:


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## Characins

I wish I could help you out here, but the shipping across countries is terrible!

Good luck with your new plants! It will be very interesting to see how you come back from all this!

And good luck finding your camera!


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Characins! I'm really looking forward to having more plants in the tank, as well. It's just not as enjoyable without all the plants!


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## @[email protected]

Complexity said:


> You are so kind, Marko! Thank you so much for the offer. I may take you up on some of the plants.


no problem. 



Complexity said:


> To my complete surprise, the barely alive twigs of R. vietnam appears to be growing! I thought that one would be one of the first plants to die. So now it's a bit of a challenge to bring that plant from the brink of death into a thriving plant. But it still could die so I won't rule out getting more quiet yet.


rotalas can be regrown from pretty much bare stems after something makes their leaves die. as long as the conditions stay good (and they do have to be pretty good), the stem will grow new tips and leaves. good luck with it. 



Complexity said:


> You were close enough on the spelling of Lilaeopsis mauritius (google was able to give me the correct spelling). This plant looks very interesting! How tall has it grown in your tank? I just might be interested in getting some of this!


about 2 to 3 inches. leaves can be curly or pretty straight, so it depends.



Complexity said:


> I think I would like to take you up on your offer of the R. vietnam and the narrow leaf micro sword on one condition. You MUST let me send you some of my plants once I get them and they grow enough for clippings. Deal? If so, send me a PM with the details. :smile:


it think we can work something out. lol
you have some amazing red plants.


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## Complexity

@[email protected] said:


> rotalas can be regrown from pretty much bare stems after something makes their leaves die. as long as the conditions stay good (and they do have to be pretty good), the stem will grow new tips and leaves. good luck with it.


It must like my tank because the tiny shoots that had begun to grow before the move have about 1/4" of healthy new growth. It'll be fun to take the twigs and make them into thriving plants! However, it'll be even better to get some actual plants that can raise my plant mass before algae decides to take over my tank.



> it think we can work something out. lol
> you have some amazing red plants.


Well, I _had_ some amazing red plants! However, I have ordered a huge number of amazing red plants — more than I had before — so I'm sure something will do well in my tank.

And as I said in my PM, anyone who helps me out, either from the hurricane or now, will get first pickings on trimmings for free. One of the best parts of this community is how so many people reach out to help, and it will be my pleasure to bring a smile to their faces like they did for me.

Looking for my camera today. I really want to get pictures of the tank now so we can all watch it change as my new plants arrive and start growing. :smile:


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## lauraleellbp

*sending Vicki one of those spelunker helmets with the light on the front as she goes burrowing through boxes*

Good luck! :thumbsup: (Do you have a rescue party on standby?)


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## Karackle

lauraleellbp said:


> *sending Vicki one of those spelunker helmets with the light on the front as she goes burrowing through boxes*
> 
> Good luck! :thumbsup: (Do you have a rescue party on standby?)


Good thing you have LL looking out for you! I do hope you have a rescue party on standby! Good luck! :fish:


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## Complexity

LOL! You guys are funny! :hihi:

I did go into the boxes and am still alive to tell the tale, but I didn't get my camera. Instead, I found my old FW Master Test Kit. I saw a few of the fish flashing so I knew the water must be off. Sure enough, it was.

Ammonia:.50 ppm
Nitrites: 0 ppm (not a typo)
Nitrates: .40ppm

I just did a 50% water change and double dosed the Prime. I'll let it circulate for a little while and check it again.

I also have two bottles of the StartRight in the fridge just for this problem.

So... I need to keep a close eye on the cycling process. My Seachem Ammonia Alert did NOT alert me that the ammonia had gone up, but maybe it's not as sensitive as I would like? It's brand new, straight from the closed container so it should be working. Oh, well!

I think all of this will be helped when I get my plants in.


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## Complexity

Oh, and a word about using StartRight. Even though it's showing ammonia, I still think the StartRight is helping. Given the fish load I have and that I have quite a few decaying plants, I think that low a level of ammonia is pretty good! The last water change I did was... Thursday? So that's TH,F,S and now Sun — 3 days — and with a completely UNcycled tank with new substrate and everything sterilized before going into the tank, to have that low of ammonia in 3 days isn't bad.

The high nitrates are probably a combination of the tank producing nitrates and me dosing nitrates when there isn't a lot of plant growth to use up the nitrates. So I'm going to stop dosing nitrates, or reduce my dosage, based on testing until the tank stabilizes.


----------



## Complexity

Uh-oh... My favorite fish in the tank, my beloved Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke' looks like he may have PopEye. His eyes are cloudy and slightly bulging. No!!

Turning UVS on full time and will watch him carefully. Water quality is the most important part. If he worsens, then I'll have to move him for treatment, but since I suspect this is more a sign of stress, I'm going to first see how he does in the main tank before stressing him even more by moving him.


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## Karackle

Oh no! I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you caught it early and took action immediately so hopefully he'll be ok!


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## Complexity

No action right now other than turning on my UVS for the night and watching the water parameters closely.

It's interesting because Pelvicachromis tend to stress when moved and hide in their caves when stressed. So I was a little concerned, but not terribly concerned when I couldn't find him. With fewer plants in the tank, I figured he was just not feeling safe yet.

Tonight's day 3 which is about normal for Kribs to start venturing out in the tank. My female 'Kienke' has colored up to the point she's turned a blackish purple. All the other Kribs are out and about. And that's when I noticed this guy.

I had just put in frozen Spiralina Brine Shrimp, and was watching them all enjoy themselves. Then, with it all gone, the fish started their usual looking on the substrate activity in hopes of finding just one more little shrimp.

That's when I saw him. He was looking for food, but then he began swimming towards the surface. That's not normal. So I'm wondering if the CO2 is a problem, but none of the other fish seem to be affected. Then he started swimming up and down at the corner of the tank. Now that is odd. (Funny note here... you know a fish is the leader when he starts acting funny and the other fish start doing it with him!) As he was swimming, his eyes just didn't look right so I moved in closer. Then when I could see the eyes of my other male Krib, I knew this poor guy's eyes were cloudy. Another comparison proved that his eyes are bulging.

Depending on the cause, PopEye can go away on its own. Given that I think his problems are due to the stress of the move and holding tank, I'm going to start off by watching him closely. I'll start feeding anti-bacterial food for everyone in the tank, and as I said, I'll run the UVS.

If he continues to swim well and eat well, I'll let him stay. PopEye isn't very contagious. But if he gets worse, then I'll move him to a H/T and begin treating him.

Of all the fish to be affected, why did it have to be him?


----------



## monkeyruler90

yeah, my gourami died of pop eye during my transition to a bigger tank, it was really sad cause i had her for about 6 months and she was the biggest one.


good luck, with plenty of TLC he'll be back in shape in no time.


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## Karackle

Well keeping an extra close eye on parameters and keeping the UV on is action in a way, it's not inaction  And I think your plan sounds good, it probably is less stressful and therefore more conducive to healing to keep him in the main tank with his mate and the the other fish with plants and driftwood etc. to hide in


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## Complexity

We'll see. I'll check him out in the morning. If he's not looking better or is worse, I'm going to go ahead and put him in a H/T and start treating for a bacterial infection. I'll just have to make the H/T as comfy as possible for him.


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## Karackle

That sounds good. So how's the little guy doing?


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## Complexity

He's doing about the same. No way can I get him out of the tank. He's not only a very fast swimmer, but he can dart and jump away from the net no matter how fast you try. He was one of the last fish (maybe THE last) I caught for the move, and that's with all plants and decor removed.

He's hiding which isn't a good sign (and also makes it hard to catch him). He can hide so well that it sometimes takes me 15 minutes of looking to find him.

His eyes are still cloudy and slightly puffed out. I thought he looked a bit fat tonight (dropsy?), but I couldn't find him again to get a better look at the scales.

I've resigned myself that he is going to die, and have decided to let him die in peace. I'm running the UVS every night when lights are out just in case any bacteria from him becomes water born. And I'm keeping a close eye on him, not only to check on his health, but so I can remove him as soon as he does die so other fish can't eat him.

It really hurts, though, because he's the fish in my avatar. He was always the most beautiful specimen, and his mating female is the most beautifully colored krib I have ever seen. I hope she'll accept another male. I'm somewhat hopeful because she's so oversexed, she shakes her thing at any male (her mate had to police her).

I guess only time will tell. I guess it's not so bad to lose one guppy and one krib, considering the stress of moving and being put into an uncycled tank without all the plants they once enjoyed. I'll be very glad when all the plants I ordered can be planted and start growing so they can help regulate the cycling process.

Oh, and I found my camera! I'll see about getting pictures tomorrow. :smile:


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## @[email protected]

cloudy eyes? puffed out?
pop-eye. for sure. its basically like dropsy, only in the eye socket.
its very easy to cure. the main cause is dirty water, and considering he is in an uncycled tank, that would be my bet. hardy fish that have gotten this condition from dirty water can be cured simply by being moved to a tank with clean water (in better conditions, their imune system can beat it). maracyn will also help since it is a bacterial infection. 
i would do my best to catch him, get him in a HT, give daily 100% WCs, and treat with maracyn. thats what i did with my betta, and he recovered completely in a week.


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## Complexity

Time for an update!

My P. t. 'Kienke' male does not appear to have dropsy. It took me a long time to figure out where he was, but when I walked away and watched, I saw his tail just behind some rocks. He then went back into the cave at that spot. So that's where he's been going when I can't find him.

I have not been doing a lot of feedings because of the cycling issue, but I decided to give them some frozen food. I swear, you would think they were all starved! They may be. I went with frozen food because the fish normally don't leave any of it uneaten.

Once I put the food in, suddenly my 'Kienke' sprang to life! He started chasing everyone away from his territory, swam all over the tank to find dropped food, and began using his regular cave instead of the one in the back. It's really hard to determine his condition since he hides anytime I come near, but he's definitely not on death's doorstep!

I'm continuing to watch the water quality. The ammonia climbed to .50ppm, still 0 nitrites, and the nitrates is now at .40ppm. I performed a 25%-33% water change with extra Prime. I didn't dose nitrates today since it's clear the tank is producing more than the plants can take in so I see no need to add additional nitrates.

I'm seeing other fish flash occasionally, including my other male Pelvicachromis. They aren't doing it very often, but they still do it which is probably due to the ammonia.

My torpedo barbs are acting strange. For some reason, they've decided to hover below the leaves of my red tiger lotus (RTL). Then they kind of jerk a little. One torpedo barb went nuts when I began adding fresh water to the point I had to double check that I indeed had added Prime and not grabbed the wrong bottle by mistake. He's calmed down now, joining the rest under the RTL leaves. I've been sitting here for awhile, and I'm seeing the torpedo barbs begin to swim around some more so I think the water change turned out to help them.

All the other fish seem fine. I'm starting to get some GDA which my SAEs, Amanos and snails are loving!

I have so many plants on their way, but I'm beginning to think I should buy a lot of hornwort to stick in the tank just to help with the cycling issue.

I think everything will settle down once the tank gets over this hurdle. I just need more bacteria and plants. I can't help with the bacteria, but I can get more plants which I've done. Hopefully, the plants will have bacteria on them that can contribute to the cycling.

Oh, my cloudy water is clearing up.


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## Karackle

Glad to hear your 'Kienke' male seems not to be on his deathbed and that he's eating, I hope he continues to improve! 

if your LFS keeps fish in with their plants, then grabbing up some horwort would probably be helpful since they'll have bacteria on them as well do their thing as nutrient sponges  

Can't wait to see updated pics! :biggrin:


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## @[email protected]

Complexity said:


> I have so many plants on their way, but I'm beginning to think I should buy a lot of hornwort to stick in the tank just to help with the cycling issue.


want some? i have extras of that too.:hihi:


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## Complexity

Marko, you are way too nice! :hihi: I tell you what, since I know hornwort can grow excessively, if you're on the verge of having to throw some away, I'll go ahead and take it. But I can get it locally.

Karacle, I had intended to get pics by now, but I've been on this board and doing a number of other things so I haven't done it yet. I'll try tomorrow.

I just got two more packages with plants. One is a gift, and boy did he send a lot of very nice stems! That will definitely help. And I didn't rinse them like I normally do just to get the bacteria. When I know the person who's sending the plants, I'm not as worried about unwanted critters or diseases, and in this case, those plants have bacteria that I very much do want.

I haven't opened the second box yet, but I'm about to do that now. Hopefully, between all the plants I'm expecting to come in and that most plants grow very well for me now, I'm hoping that the cycling issue will be taken care of very soon.


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## Karackle

Sounds like you've been well taken care of plants-wise! Awesome! :biggrin:

And I agree, getting the plant mass in there should help a lot with the cycling 

And I know what you mean about getting sucked into this board and not taking pictures  But I can't wait to see them whenever you get them taken and posted!


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## Hungry Wendigo

Good to hear your prized fish is doing better, I know I'd be upset if I lost my favorite critter. Looking forward to seeing some pictures of your tank after the move.


----------



## Complexity

I don't think he's looking better. He just didn't appear as bad as I had feared. After eating, he went back to his hiding behavior which isn't a good sign. But at least he's eating.

I got a HUGE number of new plants today! And I was very pleased with the orders I placed with 2 different websites. I have pictures of before I put the plants in and after.

Right now, the plants are just dropped in with lead weights. It's going to take me some time to figure out where to put each one. I honestly have too many different plants. I know they all won't fit. But I figure that some will die and some will get moved to my 29g and I can sell some if I just cannot fit them in.

I don't have the pictures off of my camera yet, but I'll try to do that this weekend.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Looking forward to the new pics plus the "recap" :fish:


----------



## Complexity

I'll do the recap after the plants grow in. It's like having a before and after without the after! :icon_lol:


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## Karackle

Sounds good, too many plants is definitely better than not enough!  Can't wait to see the pictures! :biggrin:


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## Complexity

Oh, goodness. It's not easy to figure out where to put them all! If I could just remove them from the tank and sort them out, it would help. But with some floating, some weighted down, some twig starters in the back (before I thought of ordering from online websites), some are planted, but need to be moved.

And then there's the desire to spread the growth patterns, leaf shapes and colors so it's balanced with all of the plants having space between other plants that are similar.

And then I want to keep my rocks in, but not cover them up.

Sheesh! I am not a natural at this. :hihi:


----------



## @[email protected]

and there are still more coming your way.
lol


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## Karackle

haha being up to your eyeballs in plants does make it harder, because you want to put all of them but you have to pick and choose! I'm having a similar problem on a much smaller scale in my 5.5, i got extras in some low light plant packages that are slightly higher to try because i have higher light in my 5.5, but now there's too much going on and it looks like a disaster....i haven't found the energy to dive in and rescape and that's a tiny tank! I can only imagine doing it on the scale of 75g! Good luck figuring out where to put everything!


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## Complexity

Wow, this is a challenge! First, I do have too many plants. But it's hard to know if they'll all make it or how they'll grow once they do get going. Different lights change the color of plants. And then there's the pink red and orange red colors that I'm not sure work together.

I also have some very small cuttings growing that I don't want to move for fear that will do them in. So I'm having to work around that, as well.

The only thing that will save me is when I get my 20L converted to my 29g with injected CO2 and all. I'll need plants for that tank, and I definitely have plenty of plants for it!

I think I have figured out places for the plants for a start. I'm sure I'll move stuff around as it grows in and I learn how to properly prune them and all.

I cannot wait until I get this done and these plants start growing!

Marko, as I'm working on the tank, I'm thinking... okay, this plant from Marko can go here, and the other one can go there... LOL! Truth is I won't have much room for them until I get my 29g setup so I can move some plants over to it.

I hope to get all the plants planted by tonight, and then I can take pictures tomorrow.


----------



## Complexity

It's planted! :smile:

The hardest part was trying to figure out where to put all the plants. I decided to do my best and make changes as the plants dictate.

I had to keep the fish up late while I finished planting. Today was supposed to be water change day so I decided to go ahead and get the water changed so the fish will spend the night in cleaner water. I figured, then I could go to sleep in peace.

Well, next thing I knew, while starting to fill the tank, the hose came off! Water was going everywhere! I tried to plug it with my thumb; that just made the water spew. I tried to kink it like a garden hose. Forget that. I finally just pushed the end in far enough for it to stay on its own so I could turn the water off.

There was water all over the walls, ceiling , cabinet. of course the tank, my lights. Geeez! But I stayed calm and went about my business, grabbing towels to wipe everything down and finished filling the tank. To my surprise, the plants and substrate were not a mess! I thought for sure the substrate would be blown all over! But it wasn't. Thank goodness for small miracles.

So the fish are now enjoying their planted tank. Lights are out, but I can see them with the moon lights.

I feel much better about the tank handling the cycling now. There should be enough plants to handle any spiking while the tank continues to cycle. I suspect it'll be cycled pretty quickly now.


----------



## Complexity

Oh, I forgot to mention something interesting I noticed about the fish's reaction to the tank being planted.

Remember earlier I mentioned that the Torpedo Barbs were hanging out under the Red Tiger Lotus, kind of twitching, instead of swimming around like they normally did.

Every time I put plants in the tank, all of the fish would swim all over the tank. They did this when I added the plants yesterday, even though they weren't planted. Then when I pulled the plants out to plant them, they hid under the RTL again. But once I placed the plants in their spots and started planting them, all the fish came back out!

I think this really shows how much the plants help the fish to feel safe. Not only is the tank prettier while planted, but having the fish swimming all over adds to it.

My 'Kienke' is still hanging in there. He's not better, but not worse. I keep hoping if I can get the water quality improved, he might have a chance.


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## @[email protected]

i hope you have room in the foreground for the r. veitnam. the stems half of the height of my 3 gallon, which is nothing in a 75 gallon.

but the good thing is that all those plants are probably sucking up all that N. just dose P, and K, and micros; so the plants arent limited and can suck up more N.


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## Complexity

R. vietnam in the foreground? I can find room for it. And the foreground might be best for now if it needs to grow out. I'll be shifting things around as baby plants grow and as I get my 29g going.

Sucking up nutrients is one of the reasons I wanted to raise the plant mass so quickly. I wanted it not only to help fend off algae, but to help stabilize the tank while it's trying to cycle. Cycling with a full load of fish is not a good idea! So far, the casualties have been small so it seems I'm at least staying on top of it pretty well. These plants should really help now.

I appreciate that you're sending me some R. vietnam. The twigs I had were trying to make a comeback, but then I accidentally uprooted some (no roots, actually) while planting close to it. The one tiny root that the plant did have will not be helped by being uprooted.

I know not all of the plants I ordered and planted will work out. My goal was to try a large variety of plants, see what does well, and toss those that don't. In the process, I'm hoping to get some plants that are different from what everyone else has so I can help others enjoy a greater variety of plants.

I have the lights come on for 30 minutes in the morning so I can do a quick inspection of the tank, and it looked good this morning. But I just woke up 2 minutes before the lights went back off so I didn't get to do a thorough examination. The lights will come back on at 1:00PM so that's when I'll be able to get a real good look at how it's doing.

One thing I did notice is that my sick 'Kienke' was not hiding. He's still not doing well, but he was actually out in the open. I think having plants in the tank is helping all the fish feel less stressed which is, in itself, a really good thing.


----------



## Complexity

Whoohoo!!

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrites: 0ppm
Nitrates: 5ppm

I'll dose normal ferts today and retest tomorrow. Seeing that ammonia reading hit 0ppm is fantastic! That's exactly what I was wanting.

Unfortunately, it's all coming too late for my male Kienke. He has dropsy.  He's still swimming and eating so I'll let him live out his life in peace. I don't think he has anything contagious; however, I want to be sure to take him out as soon as he dies or when his quality of life is at the point in which euthanasia would be best.


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## @[email protected]

it was from my 3 gallon, so its only a few inches tall. if you put it in the background immediately, it will be shaded off and die.

glad to hear about the ammonia.

poor guy. but who knows, maybe he recovers?


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## Complexity

He won't recover. Once they get dropsy, it's almost a 100% death notice.

I'm also getting a little concerned over my other male krib, the 'Malawi'. He seems to be breathing a little more than normal. I may just be jumpy, but still...

A few inches tall would be great. I have other plants growing in the front for the same reason. If the worst happens, and it all dies, then I can maybe work out a trade with someone. I just appreciate your generosity and look forward to when I can return the favor. :smile:


----------



## Karackle

Oh no Vicki, I'm so sorry to hear about the Kienke! I reckon it's at least good he's out and about, I hope he falls into the small percentage of fish that recover! 

I am glad to hear the ammonia and nitrIte readings are 0 today though, that's great! Adding a lot of plant mass does amazing things! And it certainly does sound like that fish are less stressed, which is definitely a good thing. 

I can't wait to see the new pictures!


----------



## Complexity

Would anyone like to see some pictures? :hihi:

Okay, hang on. 31 pictures coming!

First, let's start with what the tank looked like after I got it set up and could take stock of what plants I had left. I took this picture just before I started planting the new plants so by this time, many of the plants I had left had already began growing. So I wasn't completely without plant mass, but this was not anywhere what I needed to help the tank cycle with a full load of fish!










Remember the amazing Polygonum ‘Sao Paulo’? This is all that survived. I managed to get this little 2" stem to root and start putting out shoots. This was one plant I absolutely did not want to lose!

Edited for correction. This is not 'Sao Paulo'. It'll have to grow a little more to figure out what it is, but the leaves are paired off in a way that does not match 'Sao Paulo'. However, I did get some more 'Sao Paulo' from Tex Gal so I haven't lost that plant. 










I had a little more of the Giant Baby Tears survive. Still not at all what it was before, but better than losing it all.

The fish is my female Pelvicachromis taeniatus 'Kienke'. It is her mate that's dying. They were my favorite fish in the entire tank. I hope she'll accept another mate later on.

I also changed the caves. I need to pull back some of the substrate in this one.










This is the regular wisteria. It survived amazingly well! It was twisted and bent up, but it was good enough to put in the tank to suck up ammonia.

In front of the wisteria, you can see the remnants of the R. 'vietnam'. It hasn't completely died, but it's not looking promising.










This is the Crypt 'lucens' that had the BBA. Eradicating the BBA is why I gave up the cycling of the tank in order to sterilize everything. So I certainly didn't want this plant to reinfect my tank.

I removed almost all of its leaves, and I have been watching it very closely. So far, no BBA! :smile:










And my Crypt wendtii 'Bronze'. This stuff is indestructible. I cleaned out many of the old leaves that were damaged from the move, leaving only the healthier ones.


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## Complexity

I was amazed to see that my Red Tiger Lotus had survived. When I pulled it out of the tank, it had rooted very strongly to the base of the wood. I had put some filter floss on the base to cushion the roots from the slate, and it turns out the roots loved it!

So I had to put the wood and RTL in a big trash bag. I soaked paper towels and put over the leaves of the RTL. That's how it stayed for well over a week. In the meantime, I kept moving the bag around, it had been moved where it had fallen down, and was overall just pushed around. I just knew when I opened the trash bag, I'd find my lotus dead. But surprise! The paper towels were still on the leaves and still moist. While the leaves were obviously worn, the plant itself is in great shape!










My Crypt balansae. It handled the move great, but with the way I had moved them, it caused the base of the plants to bend over. So I had to work to get them somewhat straight again. After a week of being held by dowels and weights, the bends were pretty much gone so I could plant it. 










Oh, man, another indestructible plant, Sunset Hygro. I had tons of very long stems from the move. They made it okay, but most of the leaves had become mush. Still, I put it in the tank. I left the stems long so any part of the plant that could grow wouldn't be cut off.

It didn't take long at all for it to begin putting out new leaves! This was another of the plants I was so glad to have so it could help with the cycling.










I cannot believe this picture came out of my camera! It finally focused on the leaves and not the background! I really love this picture. I took it to show that some of the pink was finally showing up.










Another pretty much indestructible plant, Creeping Jenny. I need to freshen it up, but at this point, I was simply glad it was alive.


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## cah925

Glad to see you got your tank back up and running. That lotus looks amazing after everything it had been through. That Hygro 'Sunset' is definately hardy. I've chopped it down to almost nothing and had it regrow.

I like your layout with the rocks and wood. I look forward to seeing more as this continues to fill in again.


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## Complexity

Since I really needed a lot of plant mass, I decided to try placing two orders at two different places. These are the plants I received.

This first picture is form my order with aquabotanicstore.com. I bought four plants from them.

Left to right top, and then bottom:

• Hygrophila corymbosa ‘Kompakt’
• Nesaea sp. ‘Red’
• Proserpinaca palustris (aka Mermaid Weed)
• Bacopa caroliniana (bottom)

All of the plants looked good when they arrived. I was amazed at how large the portions were! The Mermaid Weed will need to go through a change to the immersed growth, but I knew then when buying it as they tell you about it on their online store.










I placed a larger order from aquariumplants.com because I had heard good things about them and I bought both of my CO2 cylinders from them. Plus, once you place an order, it's easy to throw in another plant for $2 just to try it out.

Okay, again from left to right:

• Lysimachia nummularia ‘golden’ (Creeping Jenny)
• Ludwigia peruensis
• Myriophyllum tuberculatum (Red Watermilfoil)
• Vallisneria asiatica (Contortionist Val)
• Ludwigia repens










And the last ones, left to right/top to bottom:

• Limnophila aromatica
• Alternanthera reineckii
? Pogostemon stellatus (top) (maybe this is the emersed form?)
• Rotala rotundifolia (bottom)










I know I got some of them mixed up. They look so similar when flat like that. Plus, the second plant is in its emersed form as it has little white flowers at the nodes.

Here are the plants I ordered from them. Maybe someone can help me match them up to the plant. I'm listing all of these not just for my journal, but so I can not mix the plants up for my own self.

• Lysimachia nummularia ‘golden’ (Creeping Jenny)
• Myriophyllum tuberculatum (Red Watermilfoil)
• Vallisneria asiatica (Contortionist Val)
• Alternanthera reineckii
• Limnophila aromatica
• Rotala rotundifolia
• Ludwigia peruensis
• Ludwigia repens
? Pogostemon stellatus (This is the only one left so by process of elimination I have to conclude that this plant is in its emersed form.)

Maybe they gave me a substitute or the wrong plant? I'll have to look at the plants in the tank to help figure out which plant is which.

_Note: I'm trying to match the plants with the names. The • symbol indicates that I am reasonably certain I've identified the plant correctly._


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## Complexity

So the first thing I did was put all the plants in the tank. This includes the plants from the online store orders and some plants from sellers and from some very kind people here who are sharing their plants with me for free (I'll return the favor once my plants grow in).

So here it is, all dumped inside the tank! Now that's a lot of plants!


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## Karackle

Wow Vicki! That mix of colors is fantastic! And I agree that is a great picture of the sunset hygro! WOW the lotus survived amazingly well, that is truly a stunning plant! 

Can't wait to see the updated pictures of the plants actually planted!


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## Complexity

And so here's the result. This is with some plants removed, others moved, and the new ones planted. This is by no means set in stone as I'm sure I'll be moving plants around as needed. But this is a start.

FTS:










This is the side showing how I sloped the substrate. I'm not sure if it matters or not, to be honest, as the plants just cover it all up. But I tried.

Something else I did differently was to put an egg-crate on the bottom and place the rocks on it. Then I added the substrate. So those rocks are buried in. I think that looks more natural than having them sticking on top.










Left side:










Middle:










Right side:


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## roybot73

Nice! I love all the different colors and textures, and I can imagine it's only gonna get better!


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## Karackle

Simply beautiful. What a beautiful variety of colors, and a very nice mix of textures too! It looks wonderful Vicki! Well done!


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## Complexity

Sometimes the best things are the surprised. I received this plant, _Limnophila aquatica_ (Giant Ambulia) as an extra when I purchased plants from tetrasforest on APC. I immediately fell in love with it. It is the most graceful plant I have ever seen! I love the bright green new growth on top. It simply glows in the tank. You can see he sent me a lot, and this was just the extra he sent! His other plants were very nice and generously sized.










The Red Tiger Lotus after I trimmed away the damaged leaves. Lots of new growth already coming.










These are some of the new plants that are on the far back right side. I'm not going to try to name them all because I'm still just learning the names. You can't see these plants very much from the FTS because they're just barely tall enough to peek over the rock. I'm looking forward to these growing in.










Just some of the plants on the left side. This is my Creeping Jenny that survived surprisingly well. I need to trim it up a lot, but for now, just ensuring that it's alive is all I care about.










Sorry for the poor picture quality. This is Rotala macrandra ‘narrow leaf’ that I got from rickylbc on APC. The plants arrived pretty dry so I was concerned that they wouldn't make it, but it's putting out new shoots from every node! Beautiful plant when grown in.










And this is Rotala macrandra ‘giant red’, also from rickylbc on APC. Small stems, but they appear to be hanging in there. This is another beautiful plant! It's clearly similar to the one above, but with larger leaves.


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## Complexity

The last of the pictures!

As I mentioned before, I've changed how I positioned the caves. They actually go into the substrate. In this case, the pot has a cut out on the side so I covered the entire pot to make the cave a hole in the substrate. The fish go in and remove the substrate to make it the way they like it. And it's not unsightly in the tank.










Two caves in this picture. The top one is activity used by my kribs. The one beneath is may be too covered for the fish so I'll pull back a little of the substrate so the fish can get inside.










The caves are greatly appreciated by all the critters! The amanos really like going into the caves. They look all over for food, and I find shed skins close to the caves in the back so I think they use them for cover.










This is my Flash Pleco (L204) who is grumpy about his new cave. I made it out of slate just for him, but he's not liking it. So back to the drawing board!










A last FTS. I still have a lot of work to do. I need to add the foreground plants. I also need to add a background (my wall is a deep red so it looks pretty dark with the tank's shadow, but I want a real background.

After taking this picture, I discovered yet one more plant that I hadn't planted! It's just hanging there with a lead weight. Oops!


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## Complexity

cah925 said:


> Glad to see you got your tank back up and running. That lotus looks amazing after everything it had been through. That Hygro 'Sunset' is definately hardy. I've chopped it down to almost nothing and had it regrow.
> 
> I like your layout with the rocks and wood. I look forward to seeing more as this continues to fill in again.


Thanks! I love the basic layout, as well. I made few changes from the way it was before.

I was shocked that I hadn't lost the red tiger lotus.

I ended up pulling out the Sunset Hygro for now. It's rather uncontrollable. I'll plant it in my 29g when I get it started. For now, it's a floater.


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## Complexity

Karackle said:


> Wow Vicki! That mix of colors is fantastic! And I agree that is a great picture of the sunset hygro! WOW the lotus survived amazingly well, that is truly a stunning plant!
> 
> Can't wait to see the updated pictures of the plants actually planted!


The incredible, indelible Lotus! :icon_lol:

Color was my main goal. I wanted lots of color! Then, when I was putting it all together, I realized that I had so many red plants that it was hard to find green ones to separate them!

Some of these plants will go into my 29g. For now, at least they can grow and they can help the tank cycle.


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## Complexity

roybot73 said:


> Nice! I love all the different colors and textures, and I can imagine it's only gonna get better!





Karackle said:


> Simply beautiful. What a beautiful variety of colors, and a very nice mix of textures too! It looks wonderful Vicki! Well done!


Thank you, both! I'm really looking forward to seeing what the plants will look like as they grow in. The only plant I'm already not liking is the Red Watermilfoil. If anything, I know I want to move it to another spot. It's covering up the vals behind it which I really enjoy and want to see better.


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## lauraleellbp

Tank looks fantastic, Vicki! :thumbsup:

Sooo sorry about the Krib, though.


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## MikeS

You take some great pics. The tank is looking great.


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## Complexity

Thanks, LL and Mike! :smile:


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## ikuzo

love the colours there 
the lotus is a beautiful one.


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## Complexity

Thanks, ikuzo! I was really sure it was dead to the point I didn't even want to look. Imagine my surprise to find out it faired better than all the rest of the plants!

I can't wait for this to grow in. I miss having taller plants in the tank.


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## EdTheEdge

Very impressive! nice mix of colors and the hardscape is very natural. Thanks for sharing!


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## Complexity

Thanks, Ed! I just looked at your journal for your 90g, and I love your, as well! You have some of the same plants I have so it's inspiring to see how they'll look as they mature.


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## fastfreddie

Yay! You finally got pictures up, and it looks like it was worth the wait. This is AWESOME and so different looking than every other tank on the forum!!!!!


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## Complexity

Thanks, Freddie! I never really thought of the tank being any different, but I suppose all tanks have their own unique personalities.


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## Captain Hooked

You have a lot going on in that tank! I bet it never gets boring. I like all the colors and contrasts...lovely. Your lotus looks especially vibrant. Mine looks a little "blah" compared to yours. Nice job!:thumbsup:


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## Characins

Yay its back!

The colors on your tank are amazing! Most eye catching tank ever, thats for sure.

If it looks this good right after that move, it will look even better as time goes on. I'll love to see what you do with it!


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## @[email protected]

the variety of plants is just stunning. and a lot of them i haven even seen before. 
and so much color variety too. 
your tank is bound to look great when it grows in.


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## Complexity

Thank you all for the nice comments! I have even more plants now. In fact, I have more plants than I can possibly fit into the tank. Not only did I get some nice plants from Marko (thank you!), but I also received my order from Tex Gal, as well (I got some 'Sao Paula' again!). I really need to finish my order with Orlando so I can get my 29g setup for plants.

Captain Hook, the tank never gets boring for me. I get mesmerized just watching it. There are so many plants to watch as they grow. I love to watch them pearl! It's like I'm addicted to the pearling now. I can just sit there and watch and watch and watch each plant as it pearls, grows, changes color. And then I love watching all the fish, too. Even at night, I watch them thanks to the moon lights. The cardinals literally glow at night!

My tank is still showing 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrites so it's looking more and more like my tank has cycled. Yea! That's a lot of stress gone now. I still see a little flashing, but I'm hoping that will die down with the improved water quality. I'm also feeding food that's supposed to boost their immune system.

My male 'Kienke' is near the end now. If he makes it through the night, I'm going to see if I can catch him to euthanize him. He's still hungry, but his energy level is dwindling, and he spends most of his day in a back corner. So his quality of life is not good. I think he's at a point in which I can catch him. I don't think he'll have the energy to fight it too much. I just have to find my clove oil, but I think I know what box it's in.

I still miss having plants fill up the background so I'm anxious for them to grow. They're pearling like nuts each day so it shouldn't be too long a wait.


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## Karackle

So sorry to hear about your male kienke Vicki! But i agree, sometimes it's best to euthanize, i hated to do it, but i had to do it for my Betta, better that he wasn't suffering anymore. 

But I am glad to hear your plants are pearling so much! Sounds like you'll have a full, lush tank again in no time!


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## Complexity

I finally euthanized him yesterday. He was pretty bad off, and I didn't want him to die in the tank. Since he had little energy, I was able to catch him pretty easily.

I decided to not use clove oil, but to use a rubber mallet. It's very fast and definite. It was hard to do, but I didn't want him to suffer anymore.

What's weird is that green stuff came out. Maybe the bacteria?

Now my pleco is acting very strange. He's acting as if the water is deadly, but the parameters all check out and the other fish seem okay. I've started a thread asking for help because I'm at a loss of what to do to help.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ussion/77623-help-my-pleco-going-crazy-i.html

I'll be so glad when the tank fully recovers from being moved. Everything was going so well, and now this.

On the good side, my tank has definitely cycled. Still 0ppm for ammonia and nitrites. Nitrate was at 40ppm so I'm not going to dose nitrate until that begins to drop a little, especially when my pleco is so distressed.


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## @[email protected]

let him be for a day or so. normally my sensitive fish and shrimp start swimming around looking for a way out of the tank for a while after the WC for a day or so until the kh, gh, etc. change to what they used to be. 
id put in a bit of prime, since it may bind whats bothering him, but otherwise, just let him be until you know what the problem is.


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## Complexity

That's pretty much what I did. This wasn't after a water change, but I'm blaming the CO2. I don't know what else it could be.

I saw him earlier today, but I can't find him now. I think he's in his cave which would be good.

Unfortunately, he destroyed his tail. He always had a perfect tail, and the tail is one of the most beautiful parts of this particular kind of pleco. Take a look:

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/image.php?image_id=1139

I don't know if it'll ever grow back right. The splits will probably repair okay, but he also lost a chunk of his tail, close to the lower "sword".

Now I'm worrying over my female P. 'Kienke'. Earlier, she was being naughty, trying to attract the male 'Malawi'. I was thinking that it was a good sign she might accept another mate; although, I'd have to separate her from other males to get her to bond with the right one (I don't want hybrids).

But then I found her at the far back corner with her fins clamped. It doesn't make sense. Why the sudden change in her?

I've turned on the UVS to run all night. It may not be anything, but with plants coming in from all kinds of sources, who knows what may have come into the tank. And even if there's nothing, the UVS makes me feel batter.


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## @[email protected]

do you have any purigen maybe? it cant hurt to put some in.


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## Complexity

I do. I couldn't find my original bottle, but I bought another one and I found one of my bags. This weekend is my normal schedule for "major clean" of the Eheim which will be a good time to add the Purigen. Thanks for the idea.


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## Hungry Wendigo

Your tank is looking great, but it's a real shame the move cost you your favorite fish, I'm very sorry. I hope your pleco calms down; my common pleco gets hyperactive for an hour or so at a time fairly regularly, but it doesn't sound like that's the case with yours.

I'm glad your denisonii barbs handled the move well, they're _my_ favorites. I went ahead and bought three of the odessa barbs I had mentioned in an earlier post, and they're fantastic. They spend their time chasing each other around the tank, but I've seen no signs of aggression, and there have been no problems with three more that I brought home the other day (and these are smaller). If you're ever looking for additions they are excellent.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Hungry, for the compliment and condolences. I really didn't want my P. 'Kienke' to die, but when I look at it all, moving as many fish as I did in as many tanks as I moved, the losses were minimal. I'm just so glad the move is over. I'm tired of having to recover from power outages and tank moves. I'm ready for my biggest concern be trimming overgrown plants.

My pleco is fine now. I think it was the CO2. I thought I had the pH controller adjusted right, but just lost pressure in the regulator. So when I increased the pressure in the regulator, the pH controller could finally dose the full amount of CO2 to obtain the pH I had set which turned out to be too much. Now that the CO2 dosing is fixed, he's back to his normal reclusive self with his tail being the only lasting damage.

I'm glad to hear your odessa barbs are doing well! They're very pretty. Post a picture so we can all enjoy them!


----------



## Karackle

Hey Vicki, sorry to hear about your stressed pleco, but i'm so glad he seems to be doing well now! Fish are usually pretty good at regenerating tails and such, even when large chunks are missing. It might not be QUITE as nicely colored or long as originally, but it should be pretty close i would think  

Can't wait to see more updated tank shots!


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Karackle. I'm sure his tail will be fine. He seems to be becoming more brave in the tank. Last night, I noticed he was out and about which is unusual for him. But he wasn't acting strange. Just wasn't hiding. He's also continued to dig his "cave/hole" to the point of really moving the substrate around in an area about the size of my open hand. It's getting to be a bit much. I may put the slate cave back in the hole to try to stop him.

It'll be a bit longer before I take anymore pictures. I have a lot of organizing to do. I never knew I had so much "stuff" related to my aquariums!


----------



## fastfreddie

Complexity said:


> Sometimes the best things are the surprised. I received this plant, _Limnophila aquatica_ (Giant Ambulia) as an extra when I purchased plants from tetrasforest on APC. I immediately fell in love with it. It is the most graceful plant I have ever seen! I love the bright green new growth on top. It simply glows in the tank. You can see he sent me a lot, and this was just the extra he sent! His other plants were very nice and generously sized.


Hey Vicki,
I love this pic!
I bought some of this for my ten gallon last night. I'm not sure if mine is the "giant" ambulia, but it looks exactly the same. When you plant this, do you separate the stems and plant individually or do you just have one bunch together with a weight. I doubt mine will ever look like yours, but when I saw it in the store, I thought of your tank immediately and I had to buy it! I got about 8 stems for $4.99. 

Hope all is well! Freddie


----------



## Complexity

I planted mine with the stems apart. I generally do this with all of my stems. I think it helps allow light to filter to the lower parts of the plants which helps them to keep those lower leaves.

I hope yours do well! Mine are growing nicely, but I don't think they like fast current. As they grew tall enough to reach the lower spray bar in my tank, their growth wasn't as nice. On the plants that are now growing even taller, the nice growth is returning. I think I'll move these forward a little to move them away from the direct flow of the spray bars.

Do you know the name of the plant you got? I ask because some other plants look similar, such as green cabomba.


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## fastfreddie

It was titled "ambulia" at the store, and it looks just like yours, but you mentioned "giant" so I wasn't sure if that was a variety or if you really meant it was giant. lol Thanks for the info on planting. 

I hope your Fe/ clouding issues have subsided some. Your other post sounded like you had your own R & D department with all of the testing and retesting those guys were doing. It was starting to sound like Sheldon from "The Big Bang Theory," if you have ever seen that TV show. It is really neat that people are willing to chip in and figure out a problem like that though. This is a wonderful site.


----------



## @[email protected]

how are the plants/fish doing in the tank?
any chance of an update?


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## Complexity

So much for the mad scientist in me. I've ignored my 75g. I started concentrating on my 29g, and so I haven't spent my every waking hour fussing over my 75g. I hate it when I do this. It started when I needed to do the weekly water change, but was busy and didn't get it done. Then it didn't get done the next day. Or the next. And, of course, ferts come after the water change so when I don't do the water change, nothing gets ferts. Not good, I know.

Since I haven't been dosing nitrates, I need to run a test to see how they're doing. My hope is that the nitrates have gone down by now which puts me back on track with the ferts. Hopefully, skipping a few days of ferts hasn't caused any major problems.


----------



## @[email protected]

plants store reserves of nutrients in their tissues. they will be fine, unless it becomes a habit.


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Marko. It won't be a habit. I'm just stuck with too many plants in that tank and need to get the 29g going so I can move some over. I'm slowly getting there.

I'll get the 75g back on track on Saturday.


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## cah925

I didn't take long for you to get things back on track with this tank. It looks fantastic, I can't wait to see how it all fills in!


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## lescarpentier

*Wow!!!!*

WOW!!

I think that this sums it up pretty good.

Nice job Vicki!roud:


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## Complexity

Filling in isn't the half of it. I'm having problems with plants hitting the top already! I need to do a trim, and I don't even have everything planted.

I'll get pics later. Right now, I'm trying to get my 29g going, and it's taking longer than I expected.


----------



## Complexity

Time to update! Actually, I don't have any major news. Not anything great, anyway.

The tank is pretty much a mess right now. I got too many plants, didn't know where to put them all, got busy and stopped ferts and water changes, and by the time I looked next, the plants were not doing well. As if I thought they would?

My main problem right now is trying to figure out which plants I want to keep, which ones I need to let go of, and where I'll put the ones I'll keep. My red tiger lotus has already become a monster, swallowing up most of the area where the driftwood is. There's actually more than one plant there so I'll have to take some of the extras out as it's completely taking over.

The good news is that the fish are doing well (knock on wood!) and I'm not getting a lot of terrible algae. I swear it's the CO2 that helps fend off algae the most. I'm also back on schedule with the ferts and water changes.

Pretty much I need to just organize stuff, and then encourage healthy growth. I think I'm going to cut down on the number of plants and go back to the way I had it before.


----------



## Karackle

I'm sure you'll have it looking better than ever in no time! I can't wait to see new pictures once it's all cleaned up!!!


----------



## vtkid

That is the most vast array of colors I have ever seen in a tank. It is inspiring just to see your tanks progress.:thumbsup:
just one question, during the time you took those pictures what were you using for ferts and co2?
AWESOME tank.


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## malaybiswas

Very nice scape. Do you plan to use some carpet plants too?


----------



## coolnick

I am moving my 65g in the future and have been trying to decide on a new plan for the plants. I have a red tiger lotus that I was thinking needs to go, but looking at yours just gave mine a new lease on life. Keep up with the updates, this tank is awesome.


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## TheCryptKeeper

Wow Vicki.. it is looking really great. sorry for not seeing it sooner and sorry about your kribs. Mine died too after the change to topsoil.. I think that they couldn't take the change well.

any updated pics?


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## TheCryptKeeper

oh.... and you have some nice fat ass cardinals!


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## CL

When can we get an update


----------



## Complexity

Pretty soon. I just trimmed the plants to thicken them up so they're pretty short right now. After they grow in, I'll get some pictures.

I got really busy so I was sloppy in my ferts, but I'm back on track now. Some of the plants died, but most did well. I just need to get them growing in good health now.

I'm down to only 1 pair of Pelvicachromis now. The mail 'Kienke' died from the move, and so the female tried to move in on the 'Moliwe' male. Next thing I knew, her body was bitten just before the tail. She didn't heal.

So that leaves just the 'Moliwe' pair. The female is pretty young, but she knows what to do. At first, the male chased her away, but I've noticed that he's beginning to warm up to her. I think they'll do fine once she gets a little older. I don't plan to put any more Pelvicachromis in this tank. I tried, but it just doesn't work even in a tank of this size.

My red tiger lotus grew to a gargantuan size, taking over most of the tank and shading all of the plants around it. I finally decided to trim out ALL of the leaves, and that's when I realized that I had 4 mother plants and probably 10 junior to baby ones! No wonder it was so big! So I removed all but one mother plant. It's put out one leaf so far which is exactly what I want. I might put back a second mother plant; I don't know yet. If not, then I will sell them.

Basically, that's all the news for now. I'll try to get some pictures soon.


----------



## @[email protected]

if you have any of the baby plantlets id love to buy one. 
looking forward to an update.


----------



## Complexity

Oh, I have all the babies. I've saved them and have them in an extra tank so they can grow. They, of course, lost their leaves by being uprooted and moved, but they're getting new ones. I have them in rock wool and a container just like you get from the stores!

Let me get together a list of plants that I have available so you can get more for the same shipping price. I need to get the Priority Mail boxes. I've been thinking I can probably get things ready to ship next Monday, if all goes well.

When I get a list put together, I'll PM you. :smile:


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## Complexity

Also, a quick update on the tank. Lost CO2 last night. I must have had a leak since the cylinder is only a couple of months old. I put my old CO2 cylinder on the 75g (from the 29g), but that cylinder's almost dry, as well. I hope to get both filled tomorrow.

This means I'll have about 2-3 days of fluctuating CO2. Let's hope the BBA doesn't jump back in!


----------



## @[email protected]

thanks complexity. 
you just have the best lotus ive seen, so...

you can keep your lights off while you go to refill the CO2, that way it wont matter that there is no CO2; but i think the chances of getting BBA from just a few days of suboptimal CO2 are slim.


----------



## Complexity

Yeah, I thought of keeping the lights off, but that just kills me. It's hard enough to not have the lights on all day long. I always look forward to when the lights come on!

Even if a little BBA starts to grow, I'm actually not worried. I know how to kill it and keep it gone.


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## Karackle

Hey Vicki, sounds like the tank is doing well, I can't wait to see the updated pictures! I'd love to see pics now and again in a week or two to see how it changes, but I know you've been busy and might not have enough time


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## Complexity

I think pictures now and in a week would be great! I prefer to take the pictures in the morning before the plants are pearling because the oxygen bubbles really fill up the water. The only thing I have on my schedule tomorrow is to get CO2 refills so I should be able to get some pics then.


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## Karackle

Awesome! That sounds good to me!  Can't wait to see it!


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## Hungry Wendigo

Hey Complexity, glad to see you back! Sounds like things are getting back on track with the tanks, I'm looking forward to some picture updates.

I'm actually getting ready to start up a 55 gallon high tech tank, and I would really appreciate your input. I'll probably be looking into pressurized CO2, and I'd love some advice on lighting - it's so confusing! I know yours is a slightly larger tank, but if you were to set up a 55 gallon (standard dimensions) how do you think you'd light it?


----------



## Complexity

I got busy again and didn't come back to answer your question. Did you figure out your lighting yet? If not, I really like the TEK lighting. Or at least some kind of T5 lighting (HO preferred over NO). I'm finding a huge difference in my 75g lighting and 29g lighting even though their watts per gallon is about the same.

I have the TEK lights on my 75g which is T5 HO 4 x 54w. That comes to 2.88 wpg when running all 4 lights.

On my 29g, I have two Coralife T5 NO 2 x 18w (so that makes it 4 x 18w total). That comes to 2.48 wpg with all 4 lights.

So while their wpg isn't all that different, the results are extremely different! The only other factor that might be at issue between the two tanks is the CO2. I don't feel I'm dosing enough in the 29g right now. But still.... The two tanks are light night and day from each other.

So between the far better reflectors on the TEK fixture and the HO bulbs being better than the NO bulbs, it seems to be making a very large difference in the lighting. One day, I'd like to get a bigger tank to replace the 29g, and when I do, I'll get TEK lights. I'd get them now, but the 29g is 30" long, and I don't want to invest a lot of money into lighting for that odd size.


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## Hungry Wendigo

Good to see you back! Thanks for letting me know, I actually already found a fantastic deal on a PC fixture that should work fine for the tank. I think I know what I want in the way of a CO2 system, which just leaves figuring out fertilizers and I'm good to go.

How are the fishies doing?


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## Complexity

Ferts are actually very easy once you do them. If you can stick a measuring spoon into a powder and dump the stuff into a tank, then you're good to go. It's then just a matter of knowing which measuring spoon, which powder and which tank. Piece of cake! :smile:

Fishies are doing great! After going for over 4 months without a single new fish, I finally couldn't stand it. So I went to the LFS to _inquire_ about a few fish, and you know what happened then. Of course, I brought home some new fish that I had not planned on getting! :hihi:

For this 75g tank, I got 10 new Dwarf Neon Rainbows (_Melanotaenia praecox_). I got 5 male and 5 female. They are wonderful in the tank! They liven things up by being active without being aggressive. I also like that they occupy the middle and top levels. I never cared much for rainbows because of their odd shape, but these stole my heart.

I got 10 pygmy cories for my 29g. They are so cute in there!

And then I got a male and FEMALE Dario dario! (AKA Badis bengalensis, scarlet badis, etc.) The owner gave me a pair that he said always hung around together, and so far, they seem quite happy together in my little 5g tank. However, I was reading that as the male gets older, he might be more aggressive towards the female so I need to increase the plant mass in that tank.

I got pictures of the rainbowfish that I'll post later. I'm so excited to have something new in the tank!


----------



## Hungry Wendigo

I don't think you've posted any pictures of your 29 since it's been planted, have you? Looking forward to that .

Do you use the EI method, by the way?


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## Complexity

No, I haven't (posted pictures of the 29g after planting). That tank is always #2 on my list so I end up not taking pictures of it once I've started with my 75g. I did get a few pictures of the 29g the other day, but filled my memory card up too fast. Then I didn't have time to download the pics to my Mac, clear the memory card, and start taking pictures again. Part of the problem is that my camera is ancient. I should get a new one that's not so limited and slow.

I do use the IE method. It works great!


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## Karackle

Hey Vicki, strange that we both posted for the first time in a month on the same day isn't it? :hihi: But, new fish are definitely always exciting! I saw dwarf neon raibows at my LFS a few weeks ago, and they are very cute and pretty little things...if only i had the space! Can't wait to see pictures of them and your tank update! No pressure though, because goodness knows i have a lot of updating to catch up on and I know how overwhelming and daunting it feels!


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## Complexity

Yeah, I feel bad when I intend to post pics and updates, but then don't get it done. But I keep trying. I've made it a point to try to take a little day each day to visit here since I really miss everyone.

I was watching my rainbows this morning, and I could only find 4 females, not 5. Scared me! I kept watching and watching, but there were only 4. It scared me because I had put Hikari Crab Cuisine in the tank for my amanos, and the rainbows went after them! Rainbows have small throats and can choke! So I was afraid I had choked one (didn't know they'd go after the CC like they did).

So I put my hand up against the glass which naturally attracts the rainbows to come running like a puppy dog running up when you first come back home! :icon_lol: I kept counting and counting and counting, and sure enough, there were only 4 females.  But then something caught my eye, and I started counting the males. Turns out I have 6 males, not 5! So I have 6 males and 4 females instead of the 5/5 ratio I thought I had. I guess one of the males had pale coloring when I bought him and has colored up since.

So you know what this means.... I cannot have 6 males and 4 females because the males will badger the females (I swear, they remind me of guppies). So I just _*HAVE*_ to get more females! :hihi: For the health and well-being of the fish, of course. Not because I really like them and wouldn't mind a couple more. 

I'll try to get the pics of the rainbows posted sometime today. I'm really loving them!


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## sewingalot

Ahem. Where are the pictures?


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## Complexity

Ahem. Well... some are on my hard drive. And some are in my magical mind of the future. Or something like that.

Got sidetracked these last couple of days so no new pics. But I did update the 29g! I decided to put it first this time.

I'll wake you up when I get the pictures posted. For now, enjoy your nap. :icon_lol:


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## MikeS

Looks like you caught "Kenitis", the lack of posting pics in a timely manner. :hihi:


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## Complexity

LOL! Yeah, well, you know... um... Hey, I cleaned out my big Eheim filter today. Doesn't that count for something? :hihi:

I have pictures from long ago that I meant to post, but never did. Most don't matter, but I did want to show how I rigged up the lighting. I'll try to get that online soon! TRY. :smile:


----------



## CL

MikeS said:


> Looks like you caught "Kenitis", the lack of posting pics in a timely manner. :hihi:


inflammation of the ken? 
But yeah, I agree. Hop to it Vicki!


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## Complexity

Okay, okay! I'll find the pictures about my lights that I never posted. Hopefully, that will give you guys something to gnaw on while I'm having my Kenitis! :hihi:


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## Complexity

Just what I thought. I had posted pictures of how the brackets were put on in this thread, but I never posted the pictures showing it with the lights hanging on them. So I'll try to get those posted. I'm somewhat proud of how I did this since it was my very own idea!

Pictures coming! For now, let me repost the pictures from the other thread into my journal where they belong. Keep in mind that these pictures are from July of last year.

THIS IS A REPOSTING OF THE ORIGINAL PICTURES FROM THE THREAD LINKED ABOVE. Then I'll post the pictures showing the final results that I never did post.




This is the canopy open with the brackets on the lid in their closed position. This is how the canopy will normally be.










Another angle.










Close up of bracket.










Now this is the bracket in the open position.










You can see how the brackets overhang the tank.










And a terrible photoshop job trying to show the basic idea of how the light fixture will hang:


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## Coltonorr

What keeps the canopy open and keeps the weight of the fixture from closing it?
looks sweet though!


----------



## Complexity

Wow, now I know why I never posted these pictures. They are terrible! :icon_eek: I tried to take the same pictures on two different days, and both sets came out terrible! Why I never thought to take pictures with the light turned OFF, I don't know. Oh, well. It's what I have.

So please excuse the lousy pics. The light was so bright that it threw everything off when I tried to take pics of it. So I had to overexpose some parts to show any detail; otherwise, everything above the light was just black!

So here they are. My way of hanging the lights temporarily so I can work inside the tank without having anything in the way while still having light to see what I'm doing! And then it all folds down to be hidden inside the canopy. It's very easy to switch back and forth.

While this might not be a big deal to most people, this was one of my favorite modifications to the tank! It makes working inside the tank so easy!


----------



## Complexity

Coltonorr said:


> What keeps the canopy open and keeps the weight of the fixture from closing it?
> looks sweet though!


I ended up just bracing the canopy open using a couple of bamboo sticks I had laying around. One of these days, I'll measure it and get some small metal rods to do the same thing. 

If I can find the right hardware, I'd love to mount the rods directly onto the canopy so they would be hinged to open and close, much like the rod that braces a piano open.

The rods would just have to be hinged to go up and down with the base on the corner and the rods folding down into the inside, front part of the canopy. That way, when I want to convert it to overhead lighting, the rods are right there for me. Not only is that very convenient, but it's a great way to store the rods when I'm not using them.

I could also put some kind of locking clip at the top of the canopy where the rods would go so I can't accidentally knock the rods down while working on the tank. 

All I need is to figure out how to make some kind of swivel/hinge for some rods. I never did find anything that worked the way I wanted.

If I don't hinge the rods, then I could just staple some velcro on the canopy to store the rods. And then I could put some kind of locking clip on all corners to keep them from getting knocked out by accident.


----------



## sewingalot

Stupid question here. Do you leave the canopy open when the lights are on or just for maintanence? 

I like the first picture. It really shows the progress of your tank. It is a very pretty tank, Vicki. Oh, and you forgot to wake me up, lol!


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## Complexity

LOL! I figured posting old pictures wasn't quite waking up material. :hihi:

I have to admit that I was really surprised as I went through my old pictures to see how much the tank has changed. It has come a long way from its humble beginnings!

To answer your question (which isn't dumb at all!), I usually keep my canopy closed. It's open only for major maintenance. I don't put the lights on their brackets for something as simple as a water change, but I definitely use it when I'm planting or trimming. It's really easy to move the light up and down so I just move it whenever I'm trying to do something, and it's in the way.

Something else that's changed is I no longer use the glass canopies over the tank. They just got in the way, too. I put the cover over the lights themselves and now have the tank open except for the canopy.


----------



## Complexity

Oh, and that first pic with all the green plants was my first attempt at filling the tank with plants. I was thinking that I didn't want to use a lot of stems that would need trimming so I bought up a bunch of java ferns and anubias... only to buy one with BBA that then spread throughout the tank, ruining most of those plants. Oh, well! I prefer stems much more anyway so all is good. :smile:


----------



## MikeS

Vicki, did you notice any difference in growth without the glass covers on the tank? 

btw - tanks looks awesome!!!!!!!!!!


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## Coltonorr

Very Nice! 
Your tank was/is beautiful!...


----------



## Complexity

Wow, I never even thought of it! I'd have to say no. I didn't notice any growth changes that I couldn't explain by my habits of keeping up with the ferts and CO2.

I have noticed a HUGE difference when using ferts! Even with CO2, water changes and all, without dosing ferts, the plants decline. They perk back up and begin growing much nicer and stronger once I dose the ferts every day, no fail.

I even tossed some plants that weren't doing well when I wasn't keeping up with the ferts that I now wish I had kept. The difference in the plants when I use ferts is so dramatic, I wish I had at least given those plants a chance to show me what they were supposed to look like!


----------



## Complexity

Thanks for the nice comments! The tank has changed considerably since then. It'll be fun to see the difference when I post current pictures of the tank!


----------



## @[email protected]

Complexity said:


> Thanks for the nice comments! The tank has changed considerably since then. It'll be fun to see the difference when I post current pictures of the tank!


which will be... when?
LOL
the tank is nice. i am really curious what it looks like now.


----------



## MikeS

:hihi:


----------



## Complexity

I'm working on it! I'm working on it! Give a girl a little time! :hihi:

It's really overgrown at the moment so it'll be fun to not only see how it's grown since the beginning, but to see how it changes from being overgrown to trimmed. I will post pictures THIS WEEK, I promise!


----------



## lizziotti

I love your tank. I had a picture of it as things I wanted to do to my tank before I stumbled upon your thread! Not sure where I got the pic? Can't remember. It was great to read the progression. Long .....but great! Can't wait to see more pics.

Oh and I really like the way you have your lights! I'll have to see if I can copy it if you don't mind. Mine are always in the way drives me crazy!


----------



## Voozle

Hey Vicki, this is Hungry Wendigo on a more conveniently named account.

The lighting setup looks great, you're awfully handy to have rigged up something like that. I'm really looking forward to seeing some updated pictures of the tank, I can't wait to see how it's filled in. Has it grown in to resemble the aquascape prior to the move, or does it look very different? Please snap some shots of your lovely barbs while you're at it, as well as your new additions!

Oh, after seeing your cichlids and then finding a similar-ish species for sale at the LFS, I brought a pair home myself. They're kribensis, _Pelvicachromis pulcher_, and I couldn't be happier. It's nice to see you back around TPT, you were missed!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

blah blah blah... pics now!

the tank looks great!


----------



## sewingalot

I totally want to do the bracket hanging thing. Now I need to get a canopy! Did you attach the brackets yourself? I have this issue where I cannot hang things in a straight line. I may need you to draw a template for me. :help: By the way, I am ITCHING for new pictures. I've missed your tank for too long now.


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## Pinto

Tank looks great!
Love the cabinet setup.


----------



## Complexity

lizziotti said:


> I love your tank. I had a picture of it as things I wanted to do to my tank before I stumbled upon your thread! Not sure where I got the pic? Can't remember. It was great to read the progression. Long .....but great! Can't wait to see more pics.
> 
> Oh and I really like the way you have your lights! I'll have to see if I can copy it if you don't mind. Mine are always in the way drives me crazy!


Thank you! And by all means, copy away at the hanging lights. It was actually very easy to do and you only need to know how to use a drill to do it.



Voozle said:


> Has it grown in to resemble the aquascape prior to the move, or does it look very different? Please snap some shots of your lovely barbs while you're at it, as well as your new additions!


It's the same, but different. Meaning, the very same hardscaping and same basic layout, but not the same plants. I'm still working on that. It's very overgrown right now so the pics I'll be posting will look like a jungle (and hide some of the red plants), but it's all coming along nicely.

Also, congrats on your P. pulchers! I can't wait until they spawn so you can see how they raise their young. I think watching them raising their young is the best part of them.



Torpedobarb said:


> blah blah blah... pics now!
> 
> the tank looks great!


Blah, blah, blah... keep your shirt on. Pics will be coming! :hihi:



sewingalot said:


> I totally want to do the bracket hanging thing. Now I need to get a canopy! Did you attach the brackets yourself? I have this issue where I cannot hang things in a straight line. I may need you to draw a template for me. :help: By the way, I am ITCHING for new pictures. I've missed your tank for too long now.


I'm going to be posting pics tonight. :smile:

You don't need a canopy for the brackets since you can attach them into the studs in the wall, but then they won't be hidden when not in use. I attached them myself. Just marked where the screws would go, predrilled (the canopy is Oak so I prefer to predrill), and then put the screws in the holes. That's it! Oh, and I put some velcro on the bottom screw to ensure the brackets would stay closed when I opened my canopy.

You don't have to be precise with this design at all. You just have to be sure to line up the screws with the holes for the brackets.

The main challenge was just thinking up the idea and finding the brackets (wasn't sure what I would use when I first thought up the idea). Once I found the brackets, it was really easy to do.



Pinto said:


> Tank looks great!
> Love the cabinet setup.


Thanks, Pinto! :smile:


----------



## Complexity

I was getting some pics ready to post when the database went down! So I didn't get many done. I just got the first 7 ready. Here they are!

These pictures were taken on Feb 17, 2009 so they're a little over a month old. Mainly random pics of the fish, but I did get a FTS.

Watch the FTS pics I'll be posting later to see the growth of these plants. It's crazy!

This is when I finally started getting the plants back in shape after having neglected them. My Red Tiger Lotus was severely cut back at this point so you can't even see it. I removed all of the leaves, cut off most of the roots, and removed a ton of babies. I had no choice because it was growing so large, so fast, that it was completely taking over the entire left side of the tank. The leaves were larger than my open hand!

The green plants in front of the driftwood that are on the left side, towards the middle are Hygro 'Kompact'. I bought ONE pot and split it. And it really took off! It's even much thicker now. I'll have a bunch to sell this weekend. A really great plant that grows very lush without getting too tall. One of my favorites. Beautiful bright green.










A pic of my Vals that were growing very nicely. They have taken over the tank now! I was keeping them cut back, but I wanted to share some so I stopped trimming the runners.

I'm going to move this to the far left back corner (where the C. balansae are now). They're growing too tall and hiding the plants behind them, and I think their bright green color will show up well in a back corner which tends to be darker.

The white spots is the pearling. It gets so bad, it's like a snow storm!










Five of my eight Torpedo Barbs. Great fish! That's Golden Creeping Jenny behind them. They grow really nicely.










One of my very favorites has grown back very nicely! At first, I thought this was Poly 'Sao Paulo', but it has later been determined to be Poly K. Whatever the name, it's really a beautiful plant!










There just _has_ to be some food hiding in the substrate! Torpedo barbs checking every inch of the tank for a morsel of food while my SAE works his way to getting a meal of algae.










Okay, blurry shot, but I wanted to get a picture of my little blue guppy. He is so pretty! Unfortunately, like all of my male guppies in this tank, his tail has been shredded. But his tail lasted much longer than the rest!

The yellow and black leopard guppy is a baby from two of my other guppies. I got 4 of them with this design.

If you look just to the right of the blue guppy, there is a blur of color which is actually a hybrid guppy/endler. His colors don't show up well in this pic, but he's an iridescent array of many colors. Very pretty! I have two like this.










This is my C. balansae that I have decided to let go of. I know some people love to have plants drape over the top of the tank, but I'm not one of them. So I'll selling all of these this weekend. They've grown even taller since I took this pic!










That's it for this batch. More pics to come! :smile:


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## imeridian

Everything, flora and fauna alike, is so crisp and vibrant. I love it!


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## Complexity

Thanks, imeridian! Just wait until you see how it looks when it becomes overgrown! It's very different. I will have a LOT of trimming to do this weekend!

More pics to come, but my eyes are tired so I'll have to wait until tomorrow.


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## Complexity

More pics! These are still from 2-17. I took pics of the individual plants. It's fun for me now to see how much they've grown since then!

This is my poor Alternanthera reineckii ‘Rosefolia’. I got this one from mail order, and it was clearly emersed growth because it had little white flowers all over it. And it has not done well. It's better now than it shows in this picture, but it's still a challenge. I haven't been willing to give up on it yet.










This is Ludwigia peruensis which I think is the same thing as Ludwigia glandulosa? If so, this one is much more red than the L. glandulosa I had before.

I came close to losing this due to my own neglect, but this one stem survived and began growing very nicely. Keep this pic in mind because you won't believe how it's grown now!










It took me forever to identify this one. I had ordered Limnophila aromatica and Pogostemon stellatus from mail order at the same time. I just got this one plant that looked anything like either plant.

I have finally decided that this is Pogostemon stellatus 'Broadleaf' because it has purple nodes. I'm thinking of replacing it with Limnophila aromatica at some point.










I adore this plant! It's Limnophila aquatica which I received as an extra in a trade. It grows like mad (maybe too much), but it has the most beautiful delicate bright green leaves that do not break off and make a mess i the tank. It's very easy to prune, too. I've learned to just follow the stem with my hand, and when I can feel where it has split in a fork, I just pinch off the overgrown part. As long as I do this weekly, I can keep this beautiful pom-pom appearance.










Another picture of the Limnophila aquatica. I have a lot of this that I'll put in the SnS this weekend (I hope). I'm also interested in seeing how well it will do in a lower light tank. I bet it will do great!










It's so funny how some of my favorite plants came as extras. This is Lysimachia nummularia 'Golden' which is just a very reliable plant with very nice growth. It tends to get a little algae on the leaves, but nothing bad. Very easy to grow, but it doesn't grow too fast, making maintenance very easy, as well.










Last of this group of pics is Ludwigia arcuata x repens. It's doing well, growing as most Ludwigias do. It's grown taller now with more red at the top, but it's being choked out by the other plants nearby.










I have a LOT more pictures to post so stay tuned! :smile:


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## btmarquis

Great tank, awesome pictures!


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## Complexity

Thank you! It's not anywhere near what I'm wanting, but I'm working on it. Too much green and not enough red for my taste. And I really miss my centerpiece lotus. It's beginning to grow large enough to be seen above the hygro 'Kompact', by now so it shouldn't be longer before it'll fill in that spot again.


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## Complexity

These are the last pics I took on 2-17.

This is Lamiaceae sp. (formerly known as Hemigraphis Traian). It's just not growing as well as I had hoped, but I think that's because it's not getting enough light.










This is so sad. This plant was Rotala macrandra, but it suffered greatly when I was neglecting the tank. I had hoped this little bit of growth would have survived, but it didn't. So this one is dead now. 










This one is a puzzler to me. It's Cardamine lyrata which should be easy to grow, but it doesn't seem to like my tank. Or maybe it doesn't like where it is in the tank. I'm not sure what's up, but it just doesn't want to grow for me.










Now here's a plant that's growing for me! This is Lilaeopsis mauritius (Narrow Leaf Micro Sword) which has taken off nicely from some starters. I'm not sure what to do to get it to thicken up so I'll have to learn more about this plant.










This is Proserpinaca palustris	(Mermaid Weed) that I got from mail order. It arrived, as expected, in its emersed form, and it has been touch and go into getting it to grow from there. These stems finally did begin to grow, showing the beautiful immersed red form. I'm still working with this plant to try to make something out of it. 










OMG, if ever a plant grew well, it's this one! This is Hygrophila corymbosa ‘Kompakt’. I bought one potted plant online just to try it out. I split that one plant into 5 sections, and take a look at how it grew! Keep in mind that this growth was when I was neglecting the tank! I adore this plant!










Forget the anubias in the photo as it just happened to be attached to a piece of driftwood I put in for my pleco. I was trying to get a picture of my Red Tiger Lotus after having cut it back so severely. You can see just a small bit of it in the picture. I wish I had taken pictures of it when it was taking over the tank. I took this to track the growth after having been pruned back so severely.


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## Voozle

Yay torpedo barbs! Haha, Indigo's right, everything in the tank is looking superb. I'm having trouble even locating the red tiger lotus; I was going to ask if it was still the centerpiece when the database went down, but this answers my question. I have a hygro 'kompact' bush myself, and it fares well even in my low tech tank.

My kribensis did spawn, actually, a few weeks after I brought them home. I was so shocked to see both parents take such good care of their young! The mother is looking about ready to spawn again, her belly is enormous at the moment... Imagine your fat cardinals if they were cichlids.

Oh, and I noticed there were some really great pictures of congo tetras in the May issue of TFH; have you seen them? It was you who was interested in them, wasn't it?


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## fastfreddie

I hope I am lurking in the Swap n Shop the day that Hygro Kompakt decides to leave your tank! 

It looks great Vicki! You and ZTM were the first people to help me on the forum so I've been watching closely ever since. I'm so glad this 75 is back in full swing!


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## Complexity

Voozie, thanks for the nice compliment! Good to hear the Hygro 'Kompakt' does well in a low light tank. I figured it would because they did great even as other plants have shaded them. I love how they get bushy instead of tall. A definite winner!

I want to see your kribs and babies! You have to take pictures to show me.

And, yes, I'm the one talking about the Congos. Thanks for letting me know! I'm thinking I could move the rainbows to my 29g, and put Congos in my 75g. Or maybe I could just add the congos? I'm so overstocked now, I don't know how I could fit more fish in, but you know how it is. It's so hard to resist! :hihi:


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## Complexity

Thank you, too, fastfreddie! I fully intend to put plants up for sale in the SNS for this weekend, including some really nice pieces of the Hygro 'Kompakt'.

I'm not feeling like this tank is in full swing quite yet, but it's definitely survived the move and is on the upswing. It's very overgrown now (I'll post those pics later) so it needs a really good trimming, some reorganization, and I'd like to get a few specific plants for a few spots. I want more red!



fastfreddie said:


> You and ZTM were the first people to help me on the forum...


You just made my day! I'm so glad I was able to help! :smile:


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## @[email protected]

plants look great, complexity!
oh and for the L. mauritus. all it really takes is some time and replanting the runners. with time it starts shoothing runners like mad. cut them off and seperate into peices of 2 nodes, then plant those in the mass to thicken it up.
it will be very thick pretty fast.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Marko! It's putting out runners already. Maybe I can cheat and just cut the runners, leaving the plants in place? It's also getting shaded so I think it'll do even better when I clear things out to allow more light in that area.


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## CobraGuppy

Your pictures are amazing! They bring out the intense colors of the plants really well


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## Complexity

Wow, thank you! My camera is so old, it uses a walker now, but it can still take pics so I keep using it. My favorite feature on the camera is "bracketing" which gives me 5 exposures of the same picture so I can select the best one. That way, I don't have to fuss too much with the camera itself.

I also like to use the "auto levels" feature in Photoshop. It generally makes the blacks more true to color which seems to sharpen up all the colors.

Keeping the exposure down helps to not overexpose the plants which helps retain the colors. I'm not always successful at doing it, but the camera does help.


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## @[email protected]

oh yeah, if the plant is in the spot you want it, leave the runner. i see no reason to cut it (some say cut it, because the plants all grow runners, but if left together there will be less runners, but those will grow much faster, IME). but it wont send runners just over the spot you want it. it will invade other areas, and those runners you can cut and plant in the area you want l. mauritius to thicken it up.


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## dewalltheway

Great looking tank Vicki! I had some of the same issues you had with some of your plants and I just decided to stick with the ones that grow best for me. Don't you just love the creeping jenny and your red plants are so beautiful with great color. Also.....I have got to get some Roseline sharks, yours are so beautiful!


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## Complexity

Thanks for the help, Marko. So far, I'm amazed that it hasn't began to spring up in areas where I don't want it, but that may be because I didn't plant the entire area, leaving it some room to spread.

I don't know if I'll keep it where it is. I mainly wanted to experiment with it and 2 other ground covers. Two of the three did well so the next step will be to figure out how to use them in the overall scape.



Thanks for the nice words, Dewall! I adore my roselines. I could not imagine having a tank without them. The first time I laid eyes on one, I said I absolutely HAD to get some. It was after that when I saw their price tag. Yikes! But they are definitely worth it.

I'm still working on the plants. The creeping jenny is a definite winner. Who would have thought? It seems to plain and common, but it grows so well and with such a light color that it adds a nice contrast.

I haven't given up on certain plants YET, but I do want to make some changes more slowly this time. I tried to go too fast, and ended up with a mess. Things are doing better now.


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## Complexity

I hope you guys won't mind some more pics!

The pics I'll be posting next were taken on 3-14.

For starters, a FTS showing the overall growth of the tank. To compare, I'll repost the FTS from 2-17 to see how the tank grew out in 1 month's time. I did trim some plants during that time so the growth was even more than what's shown in the pic.

Look at how that Ludwigia glandulosa /peruensis has grown! I had already cut it once in hopes of getting it to multiply, but the plantlets were taken over by the vals. So I let this one stem grow with the thought I'd cut it back when I had moved the vals. Well, the stem grew alright!

*2-17:*











*3-14:*


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## Complexity

I tried very hard to get some decent pics of my new Neon Rainbows! I like the two pics at the end the best because they show the blue bodies which gives them their "neon" name.


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## Complexity

I took this picture especially for Karackle. I had promised her I'd try to get a picture of one of the guppy/endler hybrids I got. I have two males that look like this.

While I never took the stuff myself, the pattern on this fish reminds me of an LSD trip! :icon_lol: Sorry the picture is blurry, but I tried. He doesn't look quite this red in person because he has iridescent blue and green that shows up when it catches the light. He's actually very pretty!

Why do fish always get in the way when you're trying to take pics of plants, but then race off when you want a pic of them?


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## lizziotti

Wow beautiful rainbows! Your tank is looking great. I can't wait until your lotus grows again though I loved how that looked!


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## Complexity

I'm experimenting here. My Flame Moss had overgrown, but in a poor, weak state while in my 5g RCS tank. Now that I also have Dario-Darios in that tank, I wanted to get the flame moss to grow better.

What I want to do is get several of these growing so I can trade them out every now and then to help keep them growing lush.

I already had the slate pieces from when I did this with riccia. I took the flame moss and chopped it into a million tiny pieces. Made sort of a flame moss slushy. I then spread the slush onto the slate and secured it down with window screening material. Hot glued the back, and got what you see here.

These pics are the first ones I took to track their growth. I have some more later showing more growth so the idea is working. In these pics, the moss is just beginning to peak out through the holes in the screen.


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## Complexity

lizziotti said:


> Wow beautiful rainbows! Your tank is looking great. I can't wait until your lotus grows again though I loved how that looked!


Thanks! I really miss my lotus, too. I hadn't really intended to cut it back sooo much, but I think it was best in the long run. I could not keep up with its growth before, and it truly did take over the entire half of the tank.

I have another picture I took very recently where the first couple of leaves are showing up over the hygro. I think when I thin out the hygro, it will help expose the lotus better, too. Plus, I'll be removing and trimming the plants that are shading it which should help it to grow faster.


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## mountaindew

Great thread!
Great pics!
And your detailed updates are good reading.
MD


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## Complexity

Now I'm getting to the most recent pics. These were taken on 3-25 (2 days ago) so they're recent.

First, I'll show an update of my flame moss experiment. It's taking longer for it to peak out of the screening material, but it's finally coming along.

Please excuse the GDA on the glass. I have the slate right up against the glass so I didn't get the GDA cleaned off.


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## Complexity

mountaindew said:


> Great thread!
> Great pics!
> And your detailed updates are good reading.
> MD


Thanks, MD! I sometimes wonder if anyone reads the stuff I write, but I like to explain what's going on with the pics.

I think I have 16 pics left to post. :smile:


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## jinx©

Tanks looking great, and so are the fish.roud: 

I do my flame moss the same way and have found it's the best way to get a good patch of full even growth. 
I have a small spare 10g around that I fill with water for trim times. You can just plunk your moss rocks in the tank and start snipping off little pieces to start another moss stone in the same manner. After pulling the freshly trimmed rocks out, I just swirl a net 
around to catch all the snippets for the next batch.


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## Complexity

I do the swirl thing when I'm trying to get debris out of my RCS tank. I can't use a filter without a cover and I can't vacuum without a cover, so I swirl the net. I can get a whole lot of stuff that way!

I have some kind of Java Fern that I received as an extra that I want to grow out, as well. It has thin leaves, but I don't know if it's the short type or the tall one. I'd really like to put it in my 5g for my dario-darios. But I have to grow it out first. So that's also in my 75g tank for now.


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## Complexity

And here's the tank as it is now. It definitely needs a trim! This is the first tine I've decided to try to use the SNS for my trimmings instead of throwing them away so some of it got out of hand and is causing too much shade. That will all be cleared up this weekend.

It's going to be fun to see how it looks after I trim it and move some stuff around.

FTS view.










Corner view. This is the corner I see when I walk into the room.










Left side of the tank. Remember that Ludwigia peruensis/glandulosa stem I let grow out. Look at it now! And just look at those roots! The cool thing is that there are shoots coming out from every node on that stem so I hope to be able to cut the stem up, planting the shoots which will already have roots! This wasn't planned, but I'm not complaining!










Right side of the tank. Vals anyone? I think they like my tank. Maybe a little too much!










Far right side of the tank. This is the view from my bedroom door. The sword is in there just to keep it happy until I find another home for it. It's currently potted and on top of my large rock.


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## Complexity

This is a better picture of the Ludwigia peruensis/glandulosa stem. The old leaves look horrible, but the new growth is really pretty! I'm really looking forward to getting this cut up and planted so I can have a real planting of it instead of that one long stem.










Marsilea minuta filling in. I just about lost all of this in the move. Just a few small runners survived. But they're growing in now.

There's a spot in the middle there where it's not growing. That's because every time I plant some there, my torpedo barbs pull it up! I have no idea why! I'm going to have to protect them the next time I plant them to give them a chance to root.










And my Lilaeopsis mauritius is doing well. It's getting too much shade so it has stopped growing as fast as it was, but I'll be fixing that this weekend.










And here's part of the reason for the shade problem. My Crypt balansae has grown really well, but perhaps too well. It's covering the entire top of the tank now. So as much as I hate to do it, I'm going to pull it up and sell it. I think I'll put the vals in its, but I'm not sure. If I put the vals there, then I'm afraid I'll have too much bright green on the same side since it would be so close to the Limnophila aquatica. I've thought of moving it to the right side, but then I'm not sure I want it close to the Pogostemon stellatus with similar swirling leaf forms. Ah, decisions, decisions!










Trying to get a full shot of it, but I'm backed up into a corner so I'm too close to it to get a good pic.










Just a pic of the bottom part. 










This is the other plant that's causing the shading, Limnophila aquatica, but it's easily controlled. I just didn't prune it back. I LOVE the way it pearls! So pretty!


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## Complexity

The last pics!! Not the greatest pics, but I took them just for fun. Every time I tried to get a picture of a plant, the fish would swarm over that area, getting in the way! So I decided to get a few "group shots" of them since they were all together at times.

_"You wanted a pic of the creeping jenny? I don't think so! Hey, guys, let's all swim in front of it so she can't get a pic, okay?"_










Terrible color in this pic! But I grabbed this one to get back at the fish for covering up my plants. So what was their response?

_"Hey! She's trying to take a group shot of US! Swim! Swim away! As fast as you can!"_










Yeah, so I tried to get them in front of my vals, kind of like a portrait type of thing. No way! Every time I got them in that area and then grabbed my camera, off they went!











Okay, that's a LOT of pics I've posted! That should do it for awhile. :hihi:


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## sewingalot

Vicki - outstanding pictures! You make me :drool: with envy. Why is it you can have such a beautiful tank and I can't get mine to look half this good? (End whine) I am in love with that rainbow. He looks super happy and healthy! I am so glad I woke up from my nap to see this!

Sara


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## Tex Gal

Vicki your tank is beautiful! You have recovered nicely from the move. About your Crypt balansae, don't get rid of it. Just take sizzors and trim off the leave to the height you want. It will continue putting out new leaves, so that you will not have all blunt ends. You will be able to have it in your tank and it will still look pretty. That's what I do. I like this plant better than the vals.

I love the L. Glandulosa. I'm working on growing a stand of it myself. It's really a beautiful plant. I never thought of doing what you're doing. You are a smart cookie!!

Selling the plants will be fun, but it's certainly not a way to make money. It's so time consuming that it doesn't pay. I do it because I like sharing with others and can't bare to throw them away. I love it when the people who get the plants fall in love with them like I do. I love to see them in other's tanks!


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## kyle3

gorgeous tank -and fish
cheers-K


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## BiscuitSlayer

Complexity -

Your tank looks fantastic! You have some skills when it comes to scaping a tank and achieving a balanced look. I kind of prefer the overgrown look personally. At some point, I will definately be hitting you up on your SNS threads for some of your plants. They look great!



Tex Gal said:


> I love it when the people who get the plants fall in love with them like I do. I love to see them in other's tanks!


Tex Gal - 

I actually have some plants that have come from one or more of your tanks through other users on the board. It is pretty cool how plants circulate through growth and trimmings from user to user.


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## Complexity

Thank you all for the nice comments! Biscuit, I started my first SNS thread late last night. I had way too many plants that were way too overgrown! I discovered, for example, that some of my C. balansae had grown to 36"! Wow! No wonder it was covering the entire top of the tank!

I ripped up almost every plant in the tank and either thinned it, trimmed it, or moved it. So now it's time for it to grow in again. I'll get pics once my SNS plants are gone. My poor fish don't know what happened! It's really funny!

I'm still not happy with the outcome. I'm not happy with some of the plants, and I have not acquired the skill of keeping everything balanced by color, shape and size, but I'll keep working on it. At least most of the plants are healthy and the darn BBA is gone!

So I'm passed the hurricane stage. Passed the BBA stage. Passed the moving stage. And passed the neglected and then overgrown stage. And now I've gone full circle to the "needs to grow in" stage! :hihi:

That's actually part of the fun of planted tanks. They never stay still. They are forever changing.


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## BiscuitSlayer

Complexity said:


> That's actually part of the fun of planted tanks. They never stay still. They are forever changing.



That is one aspect that actually frustrates me. About a year ago I had my tank looking exactly the way I wanted it, but now it barely looks anything like what I had. It was mainly due to neglect on my part. It seems like the more species I try to have, the more complicated it becomes to keep up with "optimal" tank maintenance. If I run short on time for a few weeks in a row, everything goes awry on me.


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## Complexity

I know the feeling, Biscuit (or should I call you BS for short? :hihi. My tank has certainly gone through its ups and downs, and the plants suffer when I get busy and don't keep up with my ferts or water changes. I hope to do better after I get rid of the plants in the SNS. Plus, I want to get some different plants than what I have now. Some I have are winners, but some just bore me now.

I will agree that having a lot of different species of plants really complicates things. When I got a whole bunch of different plants, I could not keep up with them. As a result, a bunch died. I've decided to take it much slower and not try to do so much all at once.

I really admire Tex Gal for her ability to not only grow so many beautiful plants, but to also scape them in a way that brings out the best in them while keeping the tank alive with contrast. Sometimes, I think I'll just copy her tank, but then she changes it to something even prettier, and I want to copy that! :smile:

Actually, I'd like to get my tank back to where it was before I moved. I used to just pass by the tank and was just captured by its beauty. I don't think it has that same beauty now. Maybe I should just copy my own self from back then!


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## Tex Gal

Biscuitslayer - so cool to be helping out others. That's why I sell. My husband says I'm spending my life in many hours boxing up and such with little reward. I tell him that I enjoy helping people get the plants I love. I always try to charge less than most or at least what I think is fair. I've found that when I give plants away there are usually some that don't take care of them and appreicate them. (with the exception of some that I know love them like I do ). As Vicki will find - it's not about the money. It just takes too long to do.

Vicki - thanks so much for saying that about my collectoritis. I feel guilty about it a lot. I just can't give up all the plants. I love their differences too much. Thanks for the encouragement. I know my style is not the "norm" or the recommended. I'm trying to appreciate my "differences. LOL

I've been waiting to hear if you kept your Crypt balansae. You didn't say... Can't wait to see what you did with your rescape!


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## Complexity

Your style is different, but that's part of why it's so beautiful to me. I can find a hundred Amano style tanks, and there's tons of highly manicured tanks, but to get a tank like yours is a true art. It is both balanced and natural. You are truly talented!

I'm letting go of the C. balansae. I have it in the SNS now. Some of the plants were 36" long!! I'm funny about cutting plants like that because I can't help but focus on the "unnatural" cut. If a plant grows out from the cut (such as a stem), then I'm okay. Otherwise, I just can't do it. Plus, I hope someone will enjoy getting such large crypts as they are not easily found in that size!

I want to sell plants because I honestly hate throwing them away. If you find my SNS thread, look at the Freebie plants at the end. I know I should throw them away, but it's so hard to do! I even had to force myself to toss some perfectly good, albeit very small, sections of my L. glandulosa because I knew they could grow into beautiful plants! But they were just not grown out enough to sell.

It's so much easier when gardening outside. When I find a plant I like, even if it's just a tiny sliver, I can usually find a place to put it so it can grow. If nothing else, I can put it in a pot. I have soooo many plants, including large oak trees, that started out as tiny babies that I could not bare to kill.

However, a tank is limited in space, and I can't pot any of the plants (but I am trying! I actually bought the rock wool and plastic pots!).

The problem is that I don't actually see the plant as it is, but as it could be, and I want it to have a home to live and grow. I wonder if there's a psychological term for that? :icon_lol:


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## organic sideburns

amazing tank. i was staring at the pics for so long! ur tank looks bigger than a 75, and i love the variety of plants and colors etc. what a jungle! 

how do u get such clear and good pictures? wut settins do u use on ur camera? my pics are bad.


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## coolnick

You better not toss any of those freebies, I just ordered some lol. I can't stand to throw anything away either. I feel bad because I know how much of a pain it can be in the beginning to find any plants, let alone really well cared for plants from fellow enthusiasts. I have a buddy with a 180g tank that is just starting to go planted so I try to send everything his way. My poor little 10g needs a weekly trim otherwise everything gets choked off. He is probably getting sick of Riccia and Sunset Hygro haha.

All of my favorite plants have come from fellow PTers and most of them were the freebies added on to other orders. Like the mini riccia and E tennelus from Tex Gal just to name a few.


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## Complexity

organic sideburns said:


> amazing tank. i was staring at the pics for so long! ur tank looks bigger than a 75, and i love the variety of plants and colors etc. what a jungle!
> 
> how do u get such clear and good pictures? wut settins do u use on ur camera? my pics are bad.


Thank you! The jungle is no more because I wanted to move some plants around, and I couldn't do it without removing a TON of overgrown plants! But they'll grow back again.

My camera is very old! It's only 3 megapixal. What I do is make the original pictures as large as the camera can make them, and then reduce them in Photoshop. That helps to take out the graininess.



coolnick said:


> You better not toss any of those freebies, I just ordered some lol. I can't stand to throw anything away either. I feel bad because I know how much of a pain it can be in the beginning to find any plants, let alone really well cared for plants from fellow enthusiasts. I have a buddy with a 180g tank that is just starting to go planted so I try to send everything his way. My poor little 10g needs a weekly trim otherwise everything gets choked off. He is probably getting sick of Riccia and Sunset Hygro haha.
> 
> All of my favorite plants have come from fellow PTers and most of them were the freebies added on to other orders. Like the mini riccia and E tennelus from Tex Gal just to name a few.


I'm so glad someone wanted those freebies! I felt really silly putting them on the list, but I figured if someone is already paying for the shipping, why not add them in if they want them? I couldn't just put them in as an extra because of their condition, but as long as the people getting them know up front and want to give them a try, I think it's great!

I agree that most of my plants have come from other people here. Tex Gal really got me hooked. When the hurricane wiped out my power for over a week, she sent me the most wonderful care package to get the tank going again. Actually, that was when my tank looked its best! Unfortunately, when I moved, some died and then I neglected the tank which didn't help matters. Now I'm hoping that the little extra I can get from my plants will let me get some new ones for my tank! It's kind of like trading plants around.

Sunset Hygro will eat a high tech tank! Put it in there and next thing you know, your fish are peeking out from the leaves and branches, wondering where did all the open space go? :hihi: It's much more tame in my lower tech tanks. I even have it growing in my 5g with stock 8w lighting! That stuff just grows and grows and grows! It's a wonderful plant for everyone, and especially for people just starting out who need a lot of plant mass.


----------



## organic sideburns

hmm. i have a 7.1 mega pixel camera and my tank pictures never come out as clear as yours. so, when u take the pictures, u try and get it as big as possible, then u drag them into photoshop and resize them smaller?


----------



## Complexity

Yes, that's what I do. The original pictures are 2,048 x 1,536 pixels, and I also have them saved in the highest JPG setting my camera has available.

Then when I reduce the pictures to 800 x 600 pixels (or smaller), Photoshop has to blend in the colors to make 4 pixels into 1. That helps to blend all the graininess to something smoother. But if you look at all of my pics, you can still see several with graininess. 

I also have a "bracketing" feature on my camera that I cannot live without. It takes 5 pictures all at once with each having a slightly different exposure. That really helps, especially when trying to take pictures of something that has a very bright light on top! It's best to take the pictures without the flash so the bracketing feature makes it easy for me so I don't have to worry about the exposure. When I'm done, I keep the best pic of the 5 it took.

You also don't see all the bad pictures I took and trashed. I trash a LOT of pictures! Getting pics of the fish is really hard. Most of the time, the fish has already swam away or is extremely blurry. But if I use a flash, everything comes out very harsh and unnatural. So I just take picture after picture after picture and hope that at least 1 comes out halfway decent.

Now everyone knows why it takes me so long to post new pics! :hihi:


----------



## organic sideburns

haha oh i see. well then ill start taking a lot more pics of my tanks etc and pick out the best ones. keep up the good work. ur tank is so nice.


----------



## coolnick

Hey that bracketing tip is a really good one. I hadn't thought of that. I can set my camera to do that too. I am going to give it a shot (no pun intended lol). My pictures always come out way to washed out from the light. I agree yours look fantastic.

And yeah if I don't trim that sunset every week bad things happen. But it has a new challenger, star grass.


----------



## Complexity

Thanks organic sideburns and coolnick! Definitely take a huge number of pics when photographing your tanks. Even the pros take tons of pics just to get one good one. Coolnick, let me know how the bracketing feature works out for your pics. I don't know how I could take photos without that bracketing feature. I can't imagine ever using a camera without it. 

I think Sunset hygro is a perfect plant. Great for beginners, very pretty colors, and it grows in practically every brightness of light.

I've never had star grass before. Does it grow really fast, too? Does it spread or just get taller?


----------



## sewingalot

So I have Ludwigia arcuata x repens in my tank. I had no idea what type of ludwigia this was. Thanks for the identification through your journal.  What is left after your big plant sale? Sticks?


----------



## Complexity

LOL! No, not sticks. I'd love to get a pic of it, but it's filled with plants that I hope to ship out to new homes tomorrow! The fish are really confused these days. :icon_lol:

I got rid of the overgrowth, propagated some plants to get more stems instead of one or two long stems, and moved a few plants around. The vals were growing so much, they were blocking everything behind them so I put them in the back now. I thinned out the Hygro compact so now you can actually see the red tiger lotus (plus, it's growing taller). 

I tried to move plants that weren't as happy closer to the center so they'd get more light while moving the really happy ones more to the ends. And I tried to get a decent balance of colors and textures, but darn it, I didn't plan it out and ended up with it not being balanced. So I'll be moving them again, I'm sure.

I need to sit down and really look at my plants and how they work together and where they grow the best so I can actually figure out where to put the plants and quit moving them around. Plus, I want to get some more. Selling my plants is helping me have some money to get a few new ones. Oh, Tex Gal! :icon_lol: I swear, she's better than an online plant store!


You can thank Les for the plant ID. He sent that to me. Talk about a sweetie!


----------



## sewingalot

I'll have to thank Les, then.  I am excited to see your new scape once you get the plants out of there. You should put up a before and after picture while you are planting. That would be mega cool. I am still trying to figure out how plants work together. When you figure it out, help me. Although, by the looks of it, you are doing a great job already. Tex Gal is supposed to have great plants. However, I am always out of luck. And soon as they are up, they are gone! But I did get my Poly K from her indirectly, lol!


----------



## Tex Gal

My ears are itching... I think someone's talking about me! I think you guys are great too. That's why I spend so much time on these forums. Where can you talk to people who love this hobby as much as you do?!! WE are all addicted! At least it doesn't affect our health... well... maybe the late night computing isn't great!


----------



## Complexity

LOL! Yes, we are talking behind your back. Um... well... I guess it's not behind your back when you can read it, too!

Sewingalot, if you ask Tex Gal for a certain plant, I am positive she'll find a way for you to get it when she has some available. I think a lot of us got our plants either directly or indirectly from her! And I can vouch that she definitely has great plants!

I don't know if I'll ever figure out how the plants work together. I swear I just stare at the tank, mentally moving stuff around, and it's like a puzzle with no ending. It's like when I try to do a rubik's cube. As soon as I think I've figured one part out, the other parts change! It seems I can't get them all figured out together at the same time. But that's half the fun!


----------



## Karackle

Thanks for the hybrid picture!!! Wow is he pretty....I definitely don't think my fish hybridized because they don't look like that! I'm still waiting for some to get their colors, but the ones that do have color seem to be guppies OR endlers, not mixed...anyway, he is beautiful! I hope I get some that look like him one day!!

Anyway, I just spent an hour catching up on your thread. Vicki, your tank looks absolutely gorgeous! I'm only sad that I probably missed out on the big sale this weekend because I would have loved to have gotten a few plants from you! I'll pop by the SnS and see if you have anything left just in case.  I think I liked your tank best in the mid-march photo, when it was starting to get jungle-like but you could still see all of the plants, but who am I kidding? i thought the tank looked amazing in all of the pictures!!! 

Your plants and fish are all gorgeous, and I agree, your photos are amazing. I agree with you though. I take about 98457289347592345 pictures for ever 1 that I keep! :hihi: How do you get such clear shots of fish without a flash? Mine always turn into blurs of color unless i use the flash. Perhaps I need to play with settings so the picture snaps faster. I need to see if I have a bracket setting too, that sounds like something I could make good use of!


----------



## coolnick

Complexity said:


> I've never had star grass before. Does it grow really fast, too? Does it spread or just get taller?


It is growing really fast for me right now. It doesn't ship very well because it is so delicate, so it took it a couple weeks to really start growing. It grows up, but the stem can't support it perfectly vertical so it spreads out. I'll take some pics and show you how it grows. I think it looks really cool.

If you want to try it out let me know, I can send you a couple nice tops.


----------



## sewingalot

Complexity - looks like I was caught talking about someone, lol! I so wanted that red melon sword. Lucky buyer!  I am itching for an updated picture. When do we get one? Hint, hint...


----------



## lauraleellbp

Wow Vicki- it looks amazing! :thumbsup:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

the tank is looking great Vicki.. I love the cardinals too!

my balansae was the same way.. it grew so damn tall and nice that I had to let it go too. was more work to keep it at bay.


----------



## Karackle

I forgot to mention, I'm in love with your rainbows! How big are they? they're beautiful....maybe i can squeeze a few more inhabitants into my 30g if they're small enough.....:hihi:


----------



## cah925

I just spent a good amount of time catching up on your tank. The pre-trim pics were amazing. I rarely enjoy an overgrown tank, but yours looked amazing. I'm looking forward to seeing the new scape. I'm sorry I missed out on your sale, but I'm not ready for more plants yet. I have a new 125 gal tank in the works that will need some space filled in the near future. Save some plants for me.


----------



## Complexity

Karackle said:


> I think I liked your tank best in the mid-march photo, when it was starting to get jungle-like but you could still see all of the plants...


I agree with you! I don't like overly jungled up. Plus, the faster growing plants were shading out the other plants so things just weren't balanced very well.

The tank is much more "bare" right now because all the plants have been trimmed back, but I'm seeing some good signs from some of the red plants that I really like. So now the green ones will grow with the red ones, and that should look better.

I'm still not thrilled with the balance of color in the arrangement of the plants, but at least it's getting better. I'll get pics and post them when my computer comes back from the shop.



> How do you get such clear shots of fish without a flash? Mine always turn into blurs of color unless i use the flash. Perhaps I need to play with settings so the picture snaps faster. I need to see if I have a bracket setting too, that sounds like something I could make good use of!


It's the bracket setting that helps me get those pics without a flash. It has something to do with how long the aperture is left open or something like that. Basically, it has to do with the light. The more light, the faster the aperture which means a very fast picture. Very little time for blurring. You can even get a picture of a ceiling fan on a high setting without blurring.

But when the camera thinks the subject is too dark, it will want to do one of two things. Either give the subject more light with the flash OR keep the aperture open longer in order to increase the exposure. However, that means it's possible for the camera or fish to move, and that movement gets captured as part of the picture. It's cool when you want that effect (like with waterfalls), but not if you're wanting clear pics of fish.

This is why the bracketing feature is so helpful. It takes pictures with a very fast aperture setting regardless of the amount of light. So I can use it to capture pics of things that are moving even without a flash.

If you have manual settings, then I think you can adjust the aperture to be very fast no matter what you're doing, but then you have to adjust the other settings manually to get the right exposure and all. I've done it, and some of the results are really nice! But I'm not wanting to take specialized pics all the time. I just want quick pics of the tank and fish. So that's where the bracketing feature helps out.

I'm sure all that made lots of sense! :icon_eek: :hihi:


----------



## Complexity

coolnick said:


> It is growing really fast for me right now. It doesn't ship very well because it is so delicate, so it took it a couple weeks to really start growing. It grows up, but the stem can't support it perfectly vertical so it spreads out. I'll take some pics and show you how it grows. I think it looks really cool.
> 
> If you want to try it out let me know, I can send you a couple nice tops.


Did you take the pics? I'd love to see it! I don't have space for it in my 75g right now, but I might want to try it out in my 29g once I start working on it to kill out the BBA and Clado. For now, it's my algae tank! Not suitable for actual plants. :icon_lol:



sewingalot said:


> Complexity - looks like I was caught talking about someone, lol! I so wanted that red melon sword. Lucky buyer!  I am itching for an updated picture. When do we get one? Hint, hint...


I'm so sorry you didn't get it! It went really fast. It's a beautiful plant, but I like so many plants, I didn't want to give up that much space for it. It becomes a monster plant as it grows older.



lauraleellbp said:


> Wow Vicki- it looks amazing! :thumbsup:


Thank you! :smile:



Torpedobarb said:


> the tank is looking great Vicki.. I love the cardinals too!
> 
> my balansae was the same way.. it grew so damn tall and nice that I had to let it go too. was more work to keep it at bay.


The guy who bought the really tall ones has a 36" tank. I'm so thrilled to be able to sell them to him. I just could not butcher it to keep it so short to fit my tank. It's a really beautiful plant, but really tall!



Karackle said:


> I forgot to mention, I'm in love with your rainbows! How big are they? they're beautiful....maybe i can squeeze a few more inhabitants into my 30g if they're small enough.....:hihi:


Mine are about 1"-1.25" right now, but I've read they grow to about 2". But because their bodies are so flat, but round, I think they'll look even bigger than 2" when they're full grown.

I read that they need at least a 30" tank (20Long, 29g) because they love to swim back and forth a lot. They are very active fish, but in a nice and gentle way.

I'm always squeezing inhabitants into my tanks. I swear, one day, between all the plants and fish, there won't be any room left for water in the tank!




cah925 said:


> I just spent a good amount of time catching up on your tank. The pre-trim pics were amazing. I rarely enjoy an overgrown tank, but yours looked amazing. I'm looking forward to seeing the new scape. I'm sorry I missed out on your sale, but I'm not ready for more plants yet. I have a new 125 gal tank in the works that will need some space filled in the near future. Save some plants for me.


125g, wow! I bet that will be one fun tank! Thanks for the nice words on my tank. I think the time that I liked the tank the very best was before I moved it. But if considering the after move pics, I liked it best just before it became very overgrown. I was keeping it trimmed like that, but then decided it was warm enough outside to try to sell some of the trimmings so I could have some money to get different plants. It's like trading plants, but with money in between trades. :smile:

I'll be very happy to save some plants for you! As they grow in, I'll have even more nice ones to offer.

The changes I made really don't qualify as a new scape, but more like a fine-tuning of the original scape. Just trying to get the different plants in the right spots. I don't have the same natural talent as Tex Gal so I end up doing a lot of trial and error.


----------



## sewingalot

I just looked up some pictures of red melon swords and you aren't kidding about how big they get! I am glad it went to a different home. It would have out grew my tank, lol. Congratulations on selling all your plants, Lucy - I mean Vicki. :hihi:


----------



## sewingalot

I just looked up some pictures of red melon swords and you aren't kidding about how big they get! I am glad it went to a different home. It would have out grew my tank, lol. Congratulations on selling all your plants, Lucy - I mean Vicki. :hihi:


----------



## Complexity

LOL! Yeah, Vicki sold the plants, but Lucy made sure it was a memorable event. :biggrin:

So does that means I have multiple personality disorder? :icon_eek: :wink: :tongue: 

Or maybe just multiple smiley disorder? :hihi:


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## sewingalot

It depends. Can you say "vitameatavegamin" three times fast? If so, it is definitely a mutiple smiley personality disorder. :hihi:


----------



## Complexity

vitameatavegamin...

vitameatavegamin...

vita...meata...veg....

a...

min...

vegameatavita....

veg...

...........

........

.... It's so tasty, too! [hic!]

:icon_lol:


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## Complexity

I just had to go down memory lane!

For the younger set who have no clue what we're talking about, and to the older set who would love to see it again, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlRRQ81ZRJs


----------



## sewingalot

I am so in LOVE with Lucy, your other personality. She makes me happy that I am a redhead.  When are you going to update us after the big sale? I wanna see those sticks, lol.


----------



## Tex Gal

My favorite tank of yours was before you moved too. It looked so good. I don't think we'll ever be really finished. There is always that new plant, that too big plant, that stupid dead/dying plant... That's what makes it all so much fun. It's like dressing with separates, how many outfits can you create with the same clothes! 

Vicki, thanks for the kind words, but all you have to do it look back in my threads and see that I do trial and error just like you do. lol 

...and isn't that vetavitavegamin? hehehe!


----------



## organic sideburns

u guys crack me up! more pics complexity?


----------



## Complexity

Tex Gal, I'm actually thinking of going back to the pics from my tank back then and see if I can recreate it now. I've been looking at those pics, and I can see some things that are different that I think is really taking away from the whole scape.

I remember walking into the kitchen of my apartment and just happening to look over at the tank, and being so surprised at how beautiful it was! Now... not so. But there's no reason I can't change the scape to be more like it was then since I really liked it better that way.



Tex Gal said:


> ...and isn't that vetavitavegamin? hehehe!


Yeah, that sounds about right. Just don't forget the loud [hic!] in the middle!



organic sideburns said:


> u guys crack me up! more pics complexity?


:biggrin:

Pics will have to wait until my main laptop is back from the shop. The video chip failed so they're having to replace the motherboard. I should have it back by Tuesday/Wednesday. So pics after that. Maybe Friday.


----------



## sewingalot

Friday at the latest. No excuses.  Vita *hic* meatavegamin


----------



## Karackle

Hahahaha you guys crack me up! I used to love watching Lucy reruns (does that give away that I'm young?....actually I think i'm in the middle, old enough to know who Lucy is at least! ) 

Thanks for the camera how-to! It actually did make sense, my photography class back in high school is coming back to me now! If I only my manual camera still worked...haha but it's not digital so i'd have to scan any pictures i printed...not so much worth it I guess :tongue: Your digital must be quite a bit more sophisticated than mine, is it a DSLR? I have no manual setting and couldn't find a bracketing feature. I suppose for now I'll have to keep using a flash for fish pictures until i can afford a better camera (which will probably be some time after a new computer :hihi Ah well, at least the Betta occasionally moves slow enough for me to get a non-flash shot, so that's good :icon_lol:

Also, the rainbows, sounds like a good size, a little too big for my tank probably, I mean the 30 is certainly long enough for them, but they'd be SO much bigger than any of my other fish in there :tongue: I guess for now that solves my cramming in fish issue! :hihi: I'm sure the next time I head to the fish store though I'll be bringing home new ones anyway heehee :redface: :icon_lol:

Can't wait to see the updated pictures!


----------



## Complexity

Got my laptop back on Monday, but only now catching up on the forum. I can't say for sure when I'll get pics, but I'm hoping to try this weekend. If not, then some time next week. 

I don't know if my camera is considered a DSLR, but I do have manual controls. I used them for awhile there when I was taking pics of my gardening plants, but I'd have to read up on it again to figure out what settings to use. Looking at your latest pics, I just might try the manual settings again. What you're getting is really good!

Tex Gal, I'm actually considering using the pics from my tank before I moved to recreate it back the way it was. I was looking at those pics and how the tank looks now, and I see a few things that I know I want to change back.


----------



## Karackle

Glad you got the laptop back, how is it working now? Thanks for the compliment on the pictures by the way! I still think your pictures are better though :hihi: but isn't that always the way? we're far more critical of our own stuff :tongue: 

Can't wait to see the updates!


----------



## OVT

Updates are 3 years overdue... 
Let's bring this journal back to life.


----------



## Complexity

LOL! What, 3 years of no entries isn't working? 

Actually, this tank is going through a major redo. After being ignored for a couple of years while I finished getting my degree, it became pretty sad looking. At the same time, I decided to change my 90g from a cichlid tank to a planted tank. When I put in the new substrate in my 90g tank, it was so pretty, I decided it was time to start over on my 75g, as well.

So I've been bouncing fish and plants back and forth between my 90g and 75g while working to get them both up and running as "high-tech" tanks.

I had to first get the 90g cycled and set up to grow plants. Then I moved all the fish and plants over and stripped the 75g down completely. In the process, I wanted to eradicate the zillion MTS snails which meant replacing the substrate. I also took this opportunity to finally get a background painted on the back.

So last week, I finally got the substrate in, have put a few fish in it, have switched canister filters to jump start the cycling, and have split the plants between the 90g and 75g. Now I'm adding more plants to both tanks. I'm also buying new Geissemann bulbs for both TEK fixtures since my current bulbs are very old.

I have injected CO2 up and running on both tanks and am already doing IE ferts.

So now it's just a matter of getting the tank to mature and grow plants! 

I have a few more plants coming in and then I'll take a few pics as starting pics so we can enjoy watching the plants grow in.


----------



## Complexity

Whoohoo! I just tested the water, and I'm very happy to see that the tank has already cycled! Or at least swapping the canister to a dirty canister from my 90g gave the tank enough bacteria to handle the fish load I have in the tank.

I just ran a test on my 90g and 75g tanks to see how swapping the canister filter affected the cycling of the tanks. Both tanks show 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and around 40 nitrates. My 90g has maybe 100 fish in it while my 75g has about 20 so that should be enough of a fish load to have messed with the cycling if the bacteria wasn't able to handle things.

So that's just 5 days after putting in the substrate and adding water, and 4 days after adding fish, swapping out the canister filters, and splitting the plants between the two tanks. Both tanks are cycled!

I'll still be careful with adding fish on my 75g since it's a very sterile tank other than that one dirty canister, but I could not be more pleased with how well this worked so far.

Even better news is that all my smaller tanks in which I'm using to temporarily house fish that I plan to either move around between tanks or find new homes for are also cycled. So all I have to do is keep up with the water changes, and all is good!


----------



## Karackle

Hahahaha a 3 year hiatus has definitely got me beat! But congratulations on school, that's definitely important!!! I'm glad you've got a little time to play with your tanks again though  

It sounds like you're doing some serious tank "renovations" I'm really excited to see pictures!!! 

Also, that's AWESOME about the cycle! WAHOO!!!! :biggrin: Sounds like we'll be getting some pictures soon! (i hope )


----------



## Complexity

Yeah, I should be able to get some pics next week. I just got some plants in yesterday and today so they're all curled up and all from being shipped. I want to give them a chance to at least point in the right direction before I start taking their photograph! LOL!


----------



## Complexity

I finally have some pictures! :smile:

Tank has been running for about a week after being restarted. This isn't really a scape as the plants are in the tank mainly just to get them growing. Some of the plants have been transferred back and forth between my 75g and 90g tanks and some just arrived in the mail. So they all need extra TLC to get them growing into nice, lush plants. However, if the pearling and oxygen bubbles all over the tank is any indication, then the plants should be showing some good growth in the new couple of weeks.

Tank has injected CO2 with EI ferts. I just replaced the light bulbs with fresh Geissemann bulbs which have really got the plants pearling. The difference between the old bulbs and the new bulbs is quite dramatic!

First, the obligatory FTSs:



















So much pearling, the oxygen bubbles look like a snowstorm! :icon_lol:










A lot of the oxygen bubbles in this area are coming from the red tiger lotus I have tucked away in the driftwood. I had this before and really missed it when it died. Can't wait for it to grow up now!










I got this Rotala macrandra as an extra in a plant buy on the SNS forum. Most of the stems had died, but the tops of these two stems showed some promise. They're pearling like mad so I have my fingers crossed that they'll make it.










Newly planted Blyxa japanica is pearling, as well. I'm already getting new growth with a red ting which is really nice. My roselines love to eat this plant, but I only have baby roselines in this tank so I'm hoping to get it established before they roselines are big enough to rip it up.










I think this is supposed to be purple cabomba, but I'm not seeing any red/purple color on it. It's doing quite well so far. I recently read that amano shrimp like to eat it so I may lose this once I add more amanos to the tank.










Very delicate Myrio mattogrossense is pearling quite nicely. This stem insists on remaining sideways in the tank, but that's okay since it's beginning to throw out some shide shoots which will help to give me more stems in the long run.










My ADA double check drop checker. I think I have the CO2 right on target!


----------



## 2in10

Very nice


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, 2in10! I can't wait for the plants to grow in. Then I can move them around to do an actual scape.


----------



## Cardoc

You spray bar set up is very cool how long did that take to get just right


----------



## Complexity

Thanks, Cardoc. It didn't take me too long. I'm using the customflo kits which I really like. I modify them somewhat (cut and glue some of the pieces to go the way I want), but most of the pieces are stock from the kit.

That spraybar won't show once the plants grow in. There's another one just like it lower in the tank. The lower one is the one with the injected CO2.


----------



## Karackle

Complexity said:


> Yeah, I should be able to get some pics next week. I just got some plants in yesterday and today so they're all curled up and all from being shipped. I want to give them a chance to at least point in the right direction before I start taking their photograph! LOL!


Oops! somehow I missed this one, so YAY for new plants and YAY for pictures soon :hihi: 



Complexity said:


> I finally have some pictures! :smile:


WOOHOOO!!!!



Complexity said:


> Tank has been running for about a week after being restarted. This isn't really a scape as the plants are in the tank mainly just to get them growing. Some of the plants have been transferred back and forth between my 75g and 90g tanks and some just arrived in the mail. So they all need extra TLC to get them growing into nice, lush plants. However, if the pearling and oxygen bubbles all over the tank is any indication, then the plants should be showing some good growth in the new couple of weeks.


Ugh, you jerk (), how is your "not really a scape" so much nicer than my "i did try to scape this"? :icon_lol: To be fair to myself, I haven't yet rescaped since the tanks were neglected :tongue: Your tank looks GORGEOUS even though it's newly planted, great job! I LOVE the way you set up the driftwood too! roud: Also, what kind of crypts are those red ones? Is it just your bulb that gets them to look so red in pictures? or maybe your camera settings? My red crypts NEVER look that red, especially in pictures. 

Can't wait to see this one fill in! :biggrin:


----------



## Complexity

LOL! If you saw which plants I have in front and which are in back, you'd understand why I said the tank wasn't scaped. As they grow out, I'll have to move them around, but I wanted to be sure the new plants that came in were able to get plenty of light so I put them in the front even though many will grow too tall to stay there.

Red crypts? I actually had to look back at the pics to see what you're talking about! They're not really red. They're more that brownish red color. I think it's a combination of all the above: partly their color, partly the lighting, and partly the camera. They show up more right now because they're the tallest plants in the tank for now. When I let my tank go low tech during my non-maintenance period, I bought a bunch of different crypts, and now I have crypts running out my ears!

Can't wait to see it fill in, too! I think that's really the most fun part! :smile:


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## CmLaracy

Complexity said:


> My ADA double check drop checker. I think I have the CO2 right on target!


Tank looks great, growth looks nice. Just in my experience, I always found with the double checks that 'right on target' was slightly less CO2 than my plants preferred. I was always on the 'brink' of algae when I had it matching perfectly like that, but thats with a lot of metal halide. If you find your fish are tolerating the CO2 quite well, and you're getting any precursors to algae, I'd up the CO2 by very small amounts each day and watch how your fish respond. I'm a bit reckless with my CO2 though! For example I usually push it until my fish are in distress then lower slowly until they start acting close to normal again, and no lower. Just my .02 though! Some people don't want to mess with their fish at all like that.

If I had to guess I'd say your CO2 was 25ppm-30ppm, and I prefer 35-40ppm, so like I said take my advice with a large grain of salt :hihi: Also I use 100% RO/DI so getting 35-40ppm is pretty easy. I know I've pushed it way passed that by accident, good thing I rarely keep fish. I love the crypts by the way, good stuff.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Cm. I did not know the double checks were a tad on the lean side with CO2. I've done what you've suggested before (upped it until the fish shows signs, then dropped it one notch) with excellent success and am very willing to do it again.

The CO2 dosing is looking stable right now so I think I can inch it up a notch without worrying about it fluctuating upward beyond my intentions. That's the last step for me. I have to be sure things are stable and not swinging up and down before I inch it up that last bit.

Appreciate the clue about the double check. :smile:


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## CmLaracy

Complexity said:


> Thanks, Cm. I did not know the double checks were a tad on the lean side with CO2. I've done what you've suggested before (upped it until the fish shows signs, then dropped it one notch) with excellent success and am very willing to do it again.
> 
> The CO2 dosing is looking stable right now so I think I can inch it up a notch without worrying about it fluctuating upward beyond my intentions. That's the last step for me. I have to be sure things are stable and not swinging up and down before I inch it up that last bit.
> 
> Appreciate the clue about the double check. :smile:


No problem. Sounds like you already knew


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## Complexity

Yeah, but it's been a while. I always appreciate a refresher course. :smile:


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## Karackle

haahahaha well whatever they are and however it's planted, the tank looks great! Watching it grow and fill in is definitely one of the most fun parts of planted tanks! It's especially fun to keep journals with pictures so that you can go back and compare! roud:


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## green_valley

I like the scape. Well done.


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## Complexity

Thanks, Karackle and Green! :smile:

Added fertilizer tabs today since the substrate is new. It'll be interesting to see if that makes any difference.

I'm also working to inch the CO2 up to its maximum point. I've had to increase the bubble count because it became a limiting factor. Since this tank is in my bedroom so I don't see it during the day, I'm being especially careful on raising the CO2. Don't want to gas my fish and not catch it in time.

Beginning to get diatoms which doesn't surprise me since this is a new setup (again). I knew I'd go through an algae phase as the tank matures and becomes balanced. I need to get some otos and amanos, but I'm out of space for QTs so that'll have to wait a bit.


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## CmLaracy

Complexity said:


> Thanks, Karackle and Green! :smile:
> 
> Added fertilizer tabs today since the substrate is new. It'll be interesting to see if that makes any difference.
> 
> I'm also working to inch the CO2 up to its maximum point. I've had to increase the bubble count because it became a limiting factor. Since this tank is in my bedroom so I don't see it during the day, I'm being especially careful on raising the CO2. Don't want to gas my fish and not catch it in time.
> 
> Beginning to get diatoms which doesn't surprise me since this is a new setup (again). I knew I'd go through an algae phase as the tank matures and becomes balanced. I need to get some otos and amanos, but I'm out of space for QTs so that'll have to wait a bit.


I've found that if I use exclusively RO/DI water in the first month that diatoms never gain enough steam to even need ottos and amanos, they come around for a day or two max then melt away quickly. My well water has a good amount of silicates in it (sandy soil) so without the RO/DI system the diatoms literally never go away as long as I do consistent water changes, as I'm essentially feeding them by giving them more silicates to replace the ones they used to grow. If you have access to pure RO/DI water I highly recommend it if you have diatoms, they don't stand a chance if you do consistent water changes with 0ppm silicates.


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## Complexity

Thanks for the suggestion, that's something I hadn't thought about before. Although I don't know where I'd get RO/DI water, and even if I did, I'd hate to try to lug 35g of water (50%) around every week. That's just more than I can deal with by myself.

The diatoms I'm getting now will go away once the tank matures. I've noticed a pattern in which my newly started tanks go through an algae phase a few weeks after being started, but once I kill the algae, it doesn't come back even though I don't change anything else. It doesn't have anything to do with the tank cycling because the tank is already cycled (jump started from other tanks). But it does seem to have something to do with the tank maturing in some way.

When I started up my 90g, it went through a horrible algae phase. Not only did it get diatoms, but it got hair algae, some BBA had started, there was some other kind of algae (a short filamentous algae), and then it started getting green water. Part of the reason that tank got so bad is because I was ignoring it since I was still in school, and I made things worse by stopping ferts once the algae started in. When I finally had time to address the problem, it wasn't hard to fix. I simply turned on my uv sterilizer and hit the tank with 4ml/g of H2O2 (yes, a very high amount, but I wanted to treat the entire tank). That killed the algae, and a week later, all traces of the algae had melted away. None of the algae came back even though I didn't change anything in my setup. I don't know what caused the algae in the beginning other than the tank being a new setup.

I've gotten to the point that I'm expecting the 75g to go through something similar. It's beginning now with the diatoms. I may not get all the other algae since I'm dosing heavy amounts of CO2, have changed out the light bulbs, as well as keeping up with the EI ferts so the plants may outrace the algae attack. But if not, I won't be too worried. Since I've used all my current settings before, I know everything will balance out once the tank gets past the new stage and finally matures. Then the tank's balance will be more stable.


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## Karackle

Complexity said:


> The diatoms I'm getting now will go away once the tank matures. I've noticed a pattern in which my newly started tanks go through an algae phase a few weeks after being started, but once I kill the algae, it doesn't come back even though I don't change anything else. It doesn't have anything to do with the tank cycling because the tank is already cycled (jump started from other tanks). But it does seem to have something to do with the tank maturing in some way.


This DEFINITELY seems to be true, I've gone through this many times myself. When we were going through all the moves a few years ago and had to take down the tanks to move, set them up for a few months until we could move into the new place, take them down for that move and set them back up, all of the tanks got diatoms each time even though we kept the beneficial bacteria colonies alive by leaving filter media and some plants in the transport containers with the fish. It does seem to have something to do with the tank maturing. Not sure on the why and wherefores, but the diatoms do seem to go away on their own after a time, not even too long of a time. Just makes the plants look a bit dusty for a while  Yes, Otos and amanos will eat the diatoms, but they will also go away on their own. roud:


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## Complexity

There is love it the air... errr... water! :biggrin: I finally moved my male _Pelvicachromis pulcher 'Lagos Red'_ from the 29g tank where he raised his fry to the 75g tank to be with his mate once again. I had moved the female to the 75g tank about a week ago to give her the advantage of adjusting to the tank and finding all the caves before putting him in the tank with her. He is the most aggressive pelvicachromis I have ever had, but they have successfully bred before so I wanted to give them another try.

The female was all over the male the very instant I put him in the tank! She was so dark red, she was almost black! He was pretty much in a daze from being transferred into a new tank and then having her all over him, just dying to breed again. He couldn't make a move without having her run up in front of him, shaking her red middle at him in all kinds of contortions. You'd think she hadn't had sex in a year. Oh, wait... she hadn't! :icon_lol:

Last time they bred, the male became so aggressive towards the female, I had to remove her from the tank so he raised the babies by himself. So they've been separated for several months. I kept two of their babies which I also put in the 75g tank. That tank will be for their family.

It's been a couple of days, and the male has explored the tank enough to become oriented. He's now showing his aggressive nature. But the female isn't daunted. She continues to entice him into breeding. This is what she did the last time so I'm sure they'll be breeding again soon. I just hope the 75g tank is large enough so the female will be safe after they've bred. I have about 10 caves in the tank for her to hide in if she needs to get away from him later on.


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## Complexity

The tank is going through the algae phase which I expected at this point. I'm getting a lot of diatoms which doesn't worry me even though they're unsightly. I'm also getting another algae that I cannot identify. I've looked at it under the microscope, and it doesn't match any of the algae I can find so far. It's actually quiet beautiful, and if it wasn't so aggressive, I'd love to keep it.

The algae is very bright green and very short. Under the microscope, it does not appear to grow in lengths, but in bunches (meaning, it doesn't grow like a stem, but more like a crypt or sword). The "leaves" are very short, pointed at the bottom and top, and fat in the middle (like a pointed banana). If it wasn't so bright green, I'd think it was another type of diatom, but its cellular structure and color is not the same as a diatom. The overall appearance is like a short bright green BBA. It blows in the current very pretty.

So far, it does not match BBA, green brush algae, any form of hair or filamentous algae, or any algae I can find on the internet. I've tried to identify it through all kinds of ways, but I'm stumped.

However, as nice as it looks, it's too aggressive. This algae definitely likes light as it is growing rapidly on everything closest to the lights. It's on the wood and leaves of the taller plants. It's completely coating whatever it's on which, if allowed to continue, would block photosynthesis. So I've had no choice but to treat the tank.

Yesterday, I hit the tank with 4ml per gallon of H2O2 for a total of 300ml. I spot treated as much of the algae as I could. I also hit the areas with diatoms to see if I could get rid of any of them while I was at it. Then I let that sit for 15 minutes with no filters and no lights. Then I turned on the filters and let them run for another 15 minutes while the lights remained off. After that, I turned on the lights. About 7 hours later, I did my weekly 50% water change.

The tank bubbled like crazy which is what I expected. Today, the water is a bit hazy from all the dead algae, but the fish and inverts are doing fine (the pelvicachromis are still doing their mating dances and all). The plants already look better without so much algae covering them. Interestingly, it looks like the treatment may have killed the diatoms as they aren't as dark as before which makes the whole tank look better. I'll know by next week.

I'll be doing extra water changes this week to keep up with the dead algae, but so far, so good. I will probably need to do one more H2O2 treatment to catch any bad spots I missed before, but that should be it. Once I get the tank passed this phase, the tank should do great.


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## Complexity

Just added 23 new otos to the tank to help with the diatoms. I already had 3 in the tank so that gives me 26 total.

I've also ordered 50 amanos which will hopefully be in this Thursday. They should do a good job cleaning up the dead algae. I think I only have 2 or 3 in the tank right now so they'll finally have some more to keep them company. I always keep a large stock of them in my tanks so it's been very strange to have so few in that tank.

I also ordered 5 SAE's and a Flash Pleco (L204) for the tank. They're both favorites of mine so I can't wait to see them in there.

Looks like I need to find more places for QT tanks! :biggrin:


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## Karackle

Sounds like lots of good things and new fishies are happening in this tank (even if there are some some new tank diatoms and other algae :hihi Can't wait to see more pictures of the tank and maybe the fish if you can get them :biggrin:


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## Complexity

Yeah, I'll try to get some pics. Not much to show right now, but it'll be fun to see the growth as things balance out. I should have taken pics of the algae before I hit it with H2O2, but you know how it is.


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## Complexity

So what comes after a major killing of algae? A mini-cycle! Sure enough, I'm starting to get some nitrites. Just did a 85% water change. Nitrites reading is back to 0ppm again. I'm looking for some hornwort to help the tank through the process. I'll be testing regularly now to watch for spikes. I'm not surprised considering how much algae I killed. I just have to stay on top of it now.


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## Complexity

Things are looking good! Just tested the water. Ammonia and nitrites remain at 0ppm. Nitrates are somewhere between 40-80ppm which is higher than I'd like given the plant mass in the tank so I'm going to decrease dosing nitrates until I see the plants using more than the tank is producing on its own.

The water clarity is also looking much better today. I have a feeling yesterday's nitrite spike was the tail end of the mini-cycle. I'll keep testig 2-3 times a day to be sure, but I'm happy with the way things are looking so far.

The tank's algae correction appears to be right on schedule. I usually like to give the tank a week to recover from the H2O2 treatment, and today marks day 4. So I'm at the halfway point, and the tank appears to have turned the corner. I may have to do another H2O2 treatment next week, but it probably won't have to be as aggressive as the last one.

Otos are doing good, too. Just 1 death so far which isn't unusual for the first week with otos.

Hopefully, I'll get pics posted soon. :smile:


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## sewingalot

Oh wow, your tank is looking so pretty! I am wishing I could love your driftwood, but I've never been a fan of the naked look. But even so, it fits in great with your scape. I am looking forward to reading more details and have subscribed so I don't miss out.


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## Complexity

Thanks! I understand what you mean about the driftwood. I have it like that mainly because I enjoy watching my amanos climbing up it to eat stuff from the surface when I feed my fish. Plus, I have learned that I love stems so anything low just gets buried (which is why I'm no longer putting rocks in the scape). Once I get the tank passed the algae stage, I am thinking of adding some fissidens to the driftwood. I really love that plant and think it would look good.

Things are looking better with the tank. I'm winning the battle over the algae and my diatoms are going away (or the otos are eating them all). I keep trying to get pics, but haven't done it yet. I hope to get some for sure this week.


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## sewingalot

Fissidens would look fantastic. It'll hug the driftwood better and maintain the shape of the wood, too. I always loved rock scapes but they end up looking random when I try to mimic nature. Oops. And definitiely on the hidden by other plants. I'm finding even my subwassertang completely took out the view of my rocks in the 10.


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## Complexity

Yeah, that was the problem I had with my rocks before. I had to keep the plants in front of them very, very short or they'd be hidden. Then I got frustrated because the rocks took up space where I could be planting plants! So the rocks had to go. I had to face it -- I'm a plant junkie! LOL!


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## sewingalot

That's exactly what I think about driftwood. Why give up valuable planting space? What I appreciate about yours is the fact yours isn't the normal status quo in terms of placement and shape. It seems like everyone wants this branchy, winter tree turned sideways that is just so unnatural looking for me.


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## plantbrain

Complexity said:


> My ADA double check drop checker. I think I have the CO2 right on target!


Do not assume this is correct.

Since most drop checkers target only 30ppm for the green coloration, but it is slightly light green, medium, or dark green? or sort of blue or sort of yellow? That's a wide range 1st off.

Second off, many tanks need more than 30ppm to operate correctly.
They might have higher rates of degassing, less surface film, many potential reasons we commonly ignore.

Not one of my tanks has operated correctly at 30ppm. Some likely could have, but I would have had to reduced the O2 and the livestock.

Point is, each tank has an optimal CO2 level and this seems best determined by eyeballs and good close careful observation of the fish 1st, then shrimp etc, then algae, then plants etc. DC's and pH/Kh will get you around the right area, then tweak from there.

Only once you have a good well run tank for awhile, then..........you can go back and test CO2 etc.

But by then, pH meters, pH probes are more suited as a relative measure and more precise than a DC.


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## Complexity

LOL! I understand completely! I'm actually not that crazy about this current batch of driftwood. I made the centerpiece using my leftover pieces -- all those pieces I kept turning down whenever I selected the perfect piece for my tanks. So these are the rejects! Still, I figured once I get the tank stuffed with plants, no one will even be able to see it so it didn't matter. The amanos and pleco likes it which is what really counts.


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## Complexity

plantbrain said:


> Do not assume this is correct.
> 
> Since most drop checkers target only 30ppm for the green coloration, but it is slightly light green, medium, or dark green? or sort of blue or sort of yellow? That's a wide range 1st off.
> 
> Second off, many tanks need more than 30ppm to operate correctly.
> They might have higher rates of degassing, less surface film, many potential reasons we commonly ignore.
> 
> Not one of my tanks has operated correctly at 30ppm. Some likely could have, but I would have had to reduced the O2 and the livestock.
> 
> Point is, each tank has an optimal CO2 level and this seems best determined by eyeballs and good close careful observation of the fish 1st, then shrimp etc, then algae, then plants etc. DC's and pH/Kh will get you around the right area, then tweak from there.
> 
> Only once you have a good well run tank for awhile, then..........you can go back and test CO2 etc.
> 
> But by then, pH meters, pH probes are more suited as a relative measure and more precise than a DC.


Understood. I proceeded to inch the CO2 up from what you saw there. However, I did stop just shy of what I will use as my maximum because I'm still stabilizing the tank. It's getting there. But I've been aggressively attacking an algae outbreak which, if not carefully managed, could throw the entire tank into a tailspin. So for the sake of the fauna, I have kept the CO2 just a tad shy of what I intend to dose long term.

Fortunately, I'm beating the algae and things are looking good. I should be on the other side of what I consider the "new tank algae outbreak" at this point. I have more fast growing plants I can harvest from my 90g that can add to my plant mass which will also help. I think after my next water change this weekend, I can start inching the CO2 up to its final setting.


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## Complexity

Okay, I finally took pictures. But it's going to take me some time to get them ready before I can post them. My camera is around 11-12 years old now so I have to take humongous pictures and then resize them down so they won't look so grainy. That takes me forever. I really need a new camera!

Hopefully, I'll have some pics posted later today. :smile:


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## Complexity

I finally got some pics! Here's what the tank looks like now. There's still some algae and diatoms, but I'm getting the upper hand on the algae and the otos have done a great job on the diatoms. The plants are showing improved growth. I still have more work to do to get this tank in shape, but I think the tank has finished going through its worst and should only get better from here.

Still no actual scape. My focus right now is on the tank as a whole so the plants are placed where I could fit them in and where I hoped they would have the best chance of growing. Once I've finished the algae and diatom stage and the plants are exhibiting strong healthy growth, then I'll rearrange them so they make better sense. I also have a lot of plants in my 90g that I plant to swap out with this tank.

So here's the full tank shot for starters. Okay plant mass, but still need more. I have some plants growing like crazy in my 90g I want to move over to increase the plant mass in this tank.



















This is the best shot I could get of the algae I'm fighting. It's a very odd algae. I've never seen it before. If you look closely, you'll see it has small tufts similar to BBA. It does not grow any longer; it only spreads further out. It is not green spot algae. I looked at it under the microscope, and the cell structure didn't match any of the algae I already knew of. It looked almost like diatoms, but it's bright green. It also loves light and spreads very quickly. It seems the otos like to eat it which is helpful. The H2O2 is only partially effective. Very strange algae. If it didn't spread so quickly and cover the plant leaves, I'd love to keep it. It's actually pretty on the hardscape.










This is the left side of the tank. Lots of Bacopa growing like mad. I also have a ton of Hygrophilia that's growing really fast. I believe this is H. araguaia. There's also some Ludwigia red in the mix. In front of the Ludwigia is what should be Limnophila sp 'vietnam'. Just behind and to the left of the Limnophila is some Clinopodium cf. brownei that's growing pretty nicely. It's hard to see it in the picture since it blends in with the Bacopa. When I scape the tank, I'll be sure to separate them.










This is a better shot of my Red Ludwigia. I'm so happy this plant is doing well. I bought it 4 different times, and this is the only time it survived shipping. It's slow growing for a Ludwigia, but it's definitely making it. I adore the color!










In the middle of the driftwood is Red Tiger Lotus. It's still pretty low so you can't see it very well yet. It'll grow taller once its roots take hold. In front of the driftwood is a thick stand of Hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta'. Talk about a plant that grows and grows! I bought one little pot of this when it first came out, and I've had tons of it in all my tanks ever since. You can also see some of my Blyxa japonica. I have it all over the tank right now. It got hit really hard with diatoms, but the otos are getting it cleaned off. You can still see a lot of black looking leaves which are the ones still covered in diatoms.










Posting this now. I have more pics to post in a minute!


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## Complexity

More pics! :smile:

This is Rotala macrandra that I got as an extra in a plant sale. I'm thrilled that it's surviving. I honestly didn't think it had a chance. It was in bad shape when I got it, and I've had a tough time growing it in the past. Then just as it looked like it might make it, it got covered in algae. But to my surprise, this one hung in there and is showing more and more signs that it's alive. It pearls like crazy!!










Some little stems of the same Rotala macrandra. They fell off the main stem so I planted them. You can see how the old growth is basically dead, but now there's new growth that's looking much better.










Another stem that's been struggling, but is beginning to do better is the Alternanthera reineckii. I need to move it to a more shaded area, but I haven't wanted to disturb it for fear that would be the last straw. It was also covered in that algae, but it's looking much better now and starting to grow again.










The bushy looking plant in the back was sold to me as Limnophila aromatica 'hippuroides', but it appears to be the green version. I'm not seeing even a hint of red on the plant. I'll still give it a chance though. This one was covered in diatoms and the otos have unburied it so it's finally starting to show some nice signs of growth. So who knows, maybe it'll get some red color later?

The plant in front is purple Cabomba. It's a really pretty plant. I don't know how long it'll last in my tanks though since I've heard amanos love to eat it and I have 50 amanos on order for this tank. I guess I'll find out if amanos really do eat it.










This last picture is of my Lindernia rotundifolia 'Variegated' (baby tears). It definitely needs to be uprooted, trimmed, and replanted. I've held off doing it because it had been covered in diatoms and had begun declining for awhile. So I wanted to leave it connected to the roots it had for now. Once the tank is more stable, I'll prune this one to look much better.










So there's the pictures! It's still a work in progress, but things are getting better. :smile:


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## Complexity

Changes from 6-13 to 7-4 (21 days). Some plants have shown considerable growth while others have been pretty sluggish. Not as much growth as I would normally expect in 3 weeks time, but considering the problems with algae and diatoms, it's not too bad.

Tank on June 13:










Tank on July 4:


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## Chlorophile

Tank looks great but IMO needs a thicker fuller background stand of plants. 
Looks like a lot of foreground plants could be moved into the midground as well, thicken that out and create some texture that isnt as broken up by empty space. 

I think people often try to spread their plants out evenly so it looks more full but it ends up looking sparse and unplanned. 

The blyxa especially could be grouped closer and pushed further back, especially the ones in the middle by themselves.

edit: not sure if you were looking for critiques! Tank looks great, just thought I'd throw that out there hope you don't mind!


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## Complexity

Thanks, I appreciate the critiques! :smile: And I couldn't agree with you more. The tank is a mess right now because it's not scaped yet.

The plants are where they are simply to grow and get the tank started. I completely restarted the tank recently so this is basically a whole new setup again which means I need to get the tank going from nothing. And you know how new setups are prone to algae and other problems.

So what I've been concentrating on is killing off the algae, getting rid of diatoms, and getting the plants to grow. Once that is accomplished and I have strong plant growth, then I'll rearrange the plants into an actual scape (well, as best a scape as I'm able to do!).


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## Karackle

scaped or not, I still say the tank is looking fantastic! roud: And I'm still jealous of your photography skills :hihi:

Those cardinals really look amazing in the tank too, what bright little pops of color they add to the tank!


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## sewingalot

Check out desmids and see if it matches the algae, Complexity. It looks a lot like it or the little sliver moon ones I can't think of the name of.  It's actually a great food source. I grow it on purpose. It is a sign of super healthy water, so your other algae should be disappearing soon!

Plants are starting to show some uber healthy growth, yay! Can't wait until you start shuffling things around to where you want them.


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## Complexity

Karackle said:


> scaped or not, I still say the tank is looking fantastic! roud: And I'm still jealous of your photography skills :hihi:
> 
> Those cardinals really look amazing in the tank too, what bright little pops of color they add to the tank!


Thank you! My camera is so old, I'm surprised it's still working. But it still beats anything else I have so I keep using it.

I have cardinals in almost all my tanks. I love them for their pop of color!



sewingalot said:


> Check out desmids and see if it matches the algae, Complexity. It looks a lot like it or the little sliver moon ones I can't think of the name of.  It's actually a great food source. I grow it on purpose. It is a sign of super healthy water, so your other algae should be disappearing soon!


I took a look, but didn't see anything that matched. I'll get another sample under the microscope and try to get a picture of it this time. I've been looking and looking and just cannot get an ID on it. I'd really like to know what it is, not only to control it, but because I have a huge curiosity of what's in my tanks!



> Plants are starting to show some uber healthy growth, yay! Can't wait until you start shuffling things around to where you want them.


Yeah, they're just beginning to take off. I just started a journal on my 90g which really has some nice growth. Once I get this 75g growing plants just as well, then I'll be ready to scape them both. That's when the fun will really begin! :smile:


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## hydrophyte

That's looking great!


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## Complexity

Thanks, Hydrophyte!

Here's the latest update: The Pelvicachromis female has begun nesting in the caves. She's piled up the substrate in the front of two caves so it looks like the pair are getting ready to breed.

The baby tears finally got so top heavy they uprooted themselves and the whole mess came floating to the top. So I spent a long time sorting through it all to make plantable pieces. Got that done and ended up with probably 25 stems, many with multiple branches. So now it's planted in about 4 places in the tank. Eventually, I'll narrow it down to something more reasonable, but I want the plant mass for now.

I moved a bunch of Ludwigia from my 90g to the 75g. It's taking up the whole area behind the driftwood. That should add nicely to the plant mass.

I got busy this last week and missed some of my fert dosing, and I can already see the difference in the plant growth. So I need to be sure to keep my ferts on schedule. No accidental skipping. The tank can't handle it.

That's about it for now. Tomorrow I'll move more plants from my 90g to the 75g and do the weekly water change.


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## 150EH

The tank is beautiful from the photos on the prior page but this is what really led me here - Pelvicachromis pulcher 'Lagos Red', is this the name of a fish because I really like any kind of Kribensis but I haven't found a close up while hunting through your thread.

I also like what ever camera you are using and you have good photo skills because the pics are very clean, bright, and colorful.


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## Complexity

150EH said:


> The tank is beautiful from the photos on the prior page but this is what really led me here - Pelvicachromis pulcher 'Lagos Red', is this the name of a fish because I really like any kind of Kribensis but I haven't found a close up while hunting through your thread.


I keep trying to get a pic of them, but being cichlids, they're too smart. Every time I try to zoom in for a close up, they swim off and hide. I guess the camera must look like a huge eye to them.

The only pic I could find that has the is this one. They're in the middle, a little towards the right side, close to the front of the tank. They look like they're doing their mating dance.












> I also like what ever camera you are using and you have good photo skills because the pics are very clean, bright, and colorful.


Thank you! My camera is so old! It's about a decade old and only 3 megapixels. I really want a new camera so I can zoom in closer from further away. Then I might have a chance of getting some pics of my Pelvicachromis.


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## 150EH

I can see both of them but even with Ctrl + it's hard to zoom in before the quality degrades. This is what I do, oh btw your right my fish hate the camera and take off, now back to taking a photo, feed them a treat like frozen brine shrimp where they have to swim up toward the surface to eat and they won't pay any attention to you or the camera, I took these this morning.

Pelvicachromis sacrimontis - Green Kribensis










I have one Pelvicachromis pulcher left in my tank, he is a male and was born in my tank around 5-30-2005, I have a photo of about 30 fry but I have no idea which one he is in the photo, he used to look just like yours but time has taken it's toll. If I get a good photo of him I'll share it with you.


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## Complexity

Your Greens are beautiful!! How long have you had them? Have they bred for you yet? And, yes, please let me see your P. pulcher if you get a good pic. I can never grow tired of seeing them! :smile:

I thought of getting a pic of my Moliwes this morning when I fed them, but I was busy doing a bunch of other things at the time so the thought was fleeting. I'll try to get a pic. They are really pretty. The female is in full breeding colors and the male has matured into a really striking fish. By the looks of things, it shouldn't be long before they'll have fry.


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## Complexity

This is a terrible picture, but it's the only one I was able to get. It would have helped if my glass was clean!

It looks like they may have spawned already. The female is staying in her cave which she's built up the substrate around the opening, and the male is guarding outside the cave. This is pretty normal for a breeding pair that's guarding eggs or brand new fry that's not free swimming yet.

So I didn't want to disturb them too much. I barely got this one pic before they darted back into their positions in and around the cave.

These are my Pelvicachromis pulcher 'Lagos Red' breeding pair in my 75g tank:


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## 150EH

Mine looked very similar to that 5 years ago, that's not a bad photo and I'd rather get a good look at the fish and not worry about the pixels.

My greens did have one brood early last year and then nothing, my water is cool, soft, and acidic so it may not be idea for them to breed, Aqua Botanic said _"I think that on a scale of 1 -10, with 10 being ‘just add water and they will breed), P. sacrimontis is a 7. The key factors for success in my fish room were to not try to breed a pair alone and give the fish a lot of very private spawning sites. More that half of the spawns that have occurred in my tanks went unnoticed until the fry were being led around the tank by their parents. Cave choice is important too. They are typical kribs in that they like a roomy cave with an opening just large enough or the male to slip into."_ I do have one small ceramic cave in the back of mu tank but I removed some rocks so I could have a large piece of wood, so all off my Kuhli loaches moved into the cave, I should put a few more caves back there no one would ever know.


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## Complexity

Yeah, caves are very important. I have about 10 caves in this tank for them. And she definitely checked them all out. She started nesting in 3 of them, but then made her final selection in the one she's in now. I have found the Pelvicachromis really love these Fluval caves, and they look good in a planted tank with dark substrate. Most of the caves can't even be seen because they blend in with the substrate which is exactly what I want. The caves closer to the front look good and don't clash.

Most of the Pelvicachromis like to rearrange the substrate around the opening of the caves, but this female really moved it around on this one. I wish I could get a picture, but a 2D picture fails to show the depth of the substrate she moved. She must have piled up 2 inches or more of substrate to close off the entrance to her cave. She can just barely fit in the hole now which is exactly how they like it.

I can't wait until they have their fry! I hope the male isn't as hard on the female this time. He nearly killed her last time, wouldn't let her close to the fry once they were free swimming. I had to take her out of the tank. But that was my 29g. I'm hoping the 75g will give them both enough room even if the male does freak out again. That's another reason why I made sure this tank had a bunch of caves. So if the male freaks out on the female again, she'll have lots of places to run for protection.


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## 150EH

I'd be happy just to see a second attempt to spawn and maybe it's the caves because that looks huge compared to what I have.

Here's the old man "Grumpy", he has hole in the head above his eye, cataracts, his spine is bent to a hump, but he's still kicking at 7 plus years old.

It's hard to believe this gut looked just like your male.


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## Complexity

Oh, my, I can understand why grumpy might be so grumpy! Poor fella. He's obviously seen better days.

My Pelvicachromis couple have most definitely laid eggs. The female is in her cave, guarding it from anything that comes near. The male is close by, helping with the cave guarding. Sometimes she argues with him and sends him packing, she's so protective, but he manages to come back and they work it out.

They were both very upset with me today when I cleaned the glass. The female attacked the mag float cleaner a few times! I hated to bother them, but the glass needed to be cleaned.

Also, I got a new camera! It won't arrive for as long as a couple of months since the manufacturer has sold out, but I'm very excited about the one I selected. Here's what I'm getting:

Olympus OM-D E-M5 (black) with the 12-50mm Lens. It's my fist DSLR! :smile: http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusem5


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## Complexity

BBA has begun to make an appearance in the tank. So far, nothing too bad, but it's widespread enough to indicate an overall problem.

Some plants are taking off, but other are still growing marginally. The tank still isn't quite ripe yet. I did drop my burst period on my lighting down to just 1 hour and I'm continuing to adjust my CO2 upward. Did a H2O2 treatment today, followed by a 50% water change.


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## HD Blazingwolf

i'll add that ludwigia red is just ludwigia.. it is supposed to be red
ludwigia repens is the real beast. get it red and ur throwin some light..


ur tank looks great im envious of ur macrandra. it pearled like mad in my tank too just never really thrived stayed more of an orange pink color


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## Complexity

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i'll add that ludwigia red is just ludwigia.. it is supposed to be red
> ludwigia repens is the real beast. get it red and ur throwin some light..


I have a number of different ludwigias, and it's getting hard to keep track of which is which. Some arrived mixed up and even when I asked how to separate them, the description I was given didn't match the plants I got. I've sometimes thought of growing them emersed just to see if I could get a true ID on them.

My red ludwigia is doing really nice now. It started growing so fast, it reached the surface. I didn't want to cut it, but it broke off anyway so I've split up the branches and planted them individually. Hopefully, they'll be able to do well and I'll end up with a nice bunch of it.



> ur tank looks great im envious of ur macrandra. it pearled like mad in my tank too just never really thrived stayed more of an orange pink color


Thanks! But don't get too envious. My R. macrandra is one of my most fickle plants. Part will start growing really well and then it'll hit a setback. Then it'll grow some great looking shoots again, then it'll hit a setback. What I finding is that it requires absolutely perfect tank maintenance, and any time I skip a fert dose, it tells me about it. Overall, the plant seems to be putting out more healthy growth than poor growth so I'm still hopeful that it will eventually decide to like my tank, but I don't know for sure. I've tossed this plant out before for being too finicky to grow well. This is the best it's done so far (and it came in nearly dead). So maybe it'll make it. But I'm not holding my breath just yet.

BTW, my new camera arrives this Saturday!! I'm watching the tracking constantly. I can't wait! Once I figure out how to use it, I can start taking some better pics of everything!


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## HD Blazingwolf

Id be more than happy to help u identify u ludwigia species  im quite fond of them

That are hygro araguaia just got it but man i like it.. very.... different


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## Complexity

I'd love it if you'd help me sort out my ludwigias. Thank you for offering! :smile: Once I get my new camera, I should be able to take good enough pics to be able to show the plants so they can be identified. They all grow really well.

Hygros are just weeds. I love them for that, but they are nutty plants. Grow anywhere under any conditions.

Does Hygro Araguaia get tall? Most of the pics I see have it short. I supposedly have some, but mine grow very fast all the way to the surface (and then some). I'm constantly pruning it. I've finally put some in my low tech 29g tanks to see if it'll grow in there, and if so, I'm going to pull it from my high tech tanks. It's too vigorous a grower to keep with bright light, ferts, and CO2.


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## HD Blazingwolf

It is not a vigorous grower in my opinion. Stays low and wads up pretty good. Has long skinny leaves


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## Complexity

Hmm... Then that's not what I have. What I have shoots up to the surface. It still has the skinny leaves, but it definitely isn't wadding up at the bottom.

Too many plants. Not enough accurate IDs.


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## HD Blazingwolf

throw a pic my wa of it


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## Complexity

Some of the pics I took earlier show the plant, but not very well. Maybe you can make it out. It's the plant with the skinny leaves that are kind of a golden brown with a tinge of red mixed in.

If you can't tell from these pics, I can get some more when my new camera comes in. It's supposed to be delivered tomorrow, and I'm sure I wouldn't mind finding a reason to try it out. :wink:

Anyway, this is some kind of hygro. It grows very fast, hits the surface, branches nicely, but it's very "airy" since the leaves are so thin and the nodes are pretty far apart.

It's in these two pics from my 75g:

















I also have it in my 90g which is shown in these two pics:


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## HD Blazingwolf

Kind of reminds me of a persicaria species with the coloring and stem shape leaves are shaped much like glandulosa and kawagenoeum,

I did go home for lunch, i meant to take some pictures for ya


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## zachary908

Nice tank, and plants! 

By the way, that hygro is most likely _Hygrophila Tiger_.


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## HD Blazingwolf

I did notice u said the nodes were kinda far apart. i've noticed that on a few plants of urs. how far is ur lighting from the substrate?


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## Complexity

The lighting is 19" above the substrate on the 75g (22.5" on the 90g). The fixtures sit inside canopies on top of the tanks.

Since the opening of the canopy was large enough for the fixture to fall right through, I added a small lip on both sides of the canopy for the fixture to sit on. So the lighting is only 1.5" above the lip of the tank.

The stretched nodes most definitely isn't because the plants aren't getting enough light. If anything, they're getting too much light. I think the stretched nodes is happening because some of the weedy plants are growing much faster than normal because they're getting all the CO2 and ferts they need in addition to the light. That's why I'm pulling those plants out and putting them in my low tech tanks. I think they'd do better there.


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## Complexity

And now for my latest news.... _drumroll..._

My Pelvicachromis pulcher 'Lagos Red' have new fry!! :bounce:

I knew they were watching over eggs in the cave. They had the fry out yesterday. Both, mom and dad, are doing a great job of protecting the fry.

This is the same pair that bred before, but the dad was sooo protective of the fry, he almost killed the mom. He refused to let her help raise the fry. Well, this time, they're both raising them together (so far). And it seems as if mom is the one in control this time around. If dad doesn't comply, she sends him packing! But then they work it out.

I knew these two would breed again the instant I put the male in the tank with the female. I just hope the two continue to raise the fry together. They are excellent parents as long as they keep their protective instincts directed against other fish in the tank and not each other.

Anyway, I am so excited to see this pair with new fry!


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## xmas_one

Looks like you need more light.


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## Complexity

xmas_one said:


> Looks like you need more light.


Why do you say that?


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## xmas_one

It looks good, just everything is super leggy.


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## Complexity

xmas_one said:


> It looks good, just everything is super leggy.


Not all the plants are leggy. Only certain ones. And I gave the reason why I think it's happening. It's not because there's not enough light, but because certain weedy plants are growing at an extremely fast rate.

I currently have a TEK 4x54w T5HO fixture with brand new Geisseman Aquaflora and Midday bulbs. I'm running 2 bulbs 11 hours and all 4 builbs 1 hour for a total photoperiod of 12 hours. I just recently reduced the "burst" with 4 bulbs from 3 hours down to just 1 hour to help with algae problems. The light is 19" above the substrate.

If you use Hoppy's chart, at 20" two bulbs is considered High Light. When I run all four bulbs, I'm in the Too High category. Couple that with my very long photoperiod, I think I'm throwing an enormous amount of light on the tank. Many would argue I'm using too much light. I cannot imagine running any more light on this tank










Chart Source: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=105774


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## xmas_one

Hoppys chart is why you don't have enough light. That chart is bogus.


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## Complexity

xmas_one said:


> Hoppys chart is why you don't have enough light. That chart is bogus.


Well, I guess you'll have to take that up with Hoppy. I'm happy with my lighting. I ran this lighting on this tank long before Hoppy's chart and was very pleased with the results so I see no reason to change things now.


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## HD Blazingwolf

the leggy appearance is Usually indicative of not enough light for that species
i've never seen otherwise... although i may not have grown those species i noticed. i have grown some serious weeds before and they just bush out more with more light
my tek is 28 over susbtrate at this point. im surprised u have urs so close with the results u have.. i'd have BBA all over the place

If u do believe its too much light. just leave 2 of the four bulbs on and don't do a midday burst and see what happens

BTW HAPPY PARENTING!! i love fry!

i'd also try 9 hours of light, and having the aquaflora bulbs in the middle, the middays on the outside if ur gonna run a burst period


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## Complexity

I'm giving it some thought as to whether it could be the lighting. I don't dare increase the lighting in my 75g right now since it's still battling some algae, but I may be able to do it in my 90g.

I decided to go back through my journal (does it really have to be _that_ many pages?), and I finally found my old photoperiod settings. I actually had the light brighter than I remembered. On my 75g, I ran a photoperiod of 12 hours with a burst of 5-7 hours (the number of hours running all 4 bulbs instead of just 2). That's much more light than my current 3 hour burst on my 90g and 1 hour burst on the 75g.

So... what happened from the time in which I used to run my 75g tank as a high tech tank with this exact same setup and now? All I see is a major shift in the way we measure light so that the amount of light that was once acceptable is now considered much too high. But if the light I was running back then was working fine for me, then why do I have to lower it now? And is it possible that the lighting really is too low and, thus, causing leggy growth?

There's only one way to find out!

I'm not going to increase the lighting on my 75g since it's still not fully stable, but my 90g is solid. So I can increase the lighting on it and then see the affects. If I start getting algae, then I'll know it's due to the increased lighting. If not, then I'll know it's okay. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how the plants react.

BTW, why does it matter where I put the aquaflora and midday bulbs? I think I have the aquaflora bulbs in the front of each bank.

_back of tank_
...(1) midday
......(2) aquaflora
......(2) midday
...(1) aquaflora
_front of tank_

I did it that way because I didn't want the taller plants obstructing the aquaflora lighting from the plants in front.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Complexity said:


> I'm giving it some thought as to whether it could be the lighting. I don't dare increase the lighting in my 75g right now since it's still battling some algae, but I may be able to do it in my 90g.
> 
> I decided to go back through my journal (does it really have to be _that_ many pages?), and I finally found my old photoperiod settings. I actually had the light brighter than I remembered. On my 75g, I ran a photoperiod of 12 hours with a burst of 5-7 hours (the number of hours running all 4 bulbs instead of just 2). That's much more light than my current 3 hour burst on my 90g and 1 hour burst on the 75g.
> 
> So... what happened from the time in which I used to run my 75g tank as a high tech tank with this exact same setup and now? All I see is a major shift in the way we measure light so that the amount of light that was once acceptable is now considered much too high. But if the light I was running back then was working fine for me, then why do I have to lower it now? And is it possible that the lighting really is too low and, thus, causing leggy growth?
> 
> There's only one way to find out!
> 
> I'm not going to increase the lighting on my 75g since it's still not fully stable, but my 90g is solid. So I can increase the lighting on it and then see the affects. If I start getting algae, then I'll know it's due to the increased lighting. If not, then I'll know it's okay. Either way, it'll be interesting to see how the plants react.
> 
> BTW, why does it matter where I put the aquaflora and midday bulbs? I think I have the aquaflora bulbs in the front of each bank.
> 
> _back of tank_
> ...(1) midday
> ......(2) aquaflora
> ......(2) midday
> ...(1) aquaflora
> _front of tank_
> 
> I did it that way because I didn't want the taller plants obstructing the aquaflora lighting from the plants in front.


well i can tell u that on my 29 gallon. i have again 28 inches from substrate. and i dont have leggy growth.. so u having the same fixture is puzzling and 9 inches closer..... WILD i know unless ur reflectors are realllllyy nasty and ur acrylic shield is REALLLLLYY nasty i don't see how its possible but the sign is obvious

i also don't run the shield

blue lights penetrate further so for less lighting i run the 6500k and midday on the outside and the aquaflora and redwave in the middle on mine since they are loaded with blue spectrum.. this gives the midday burst a real brightup but otherwise keep the normal lights less bright (at least that's how plants see it )


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## BoxxerBoyDrew

FREAKIN AWESOME NEWS on the Krib fry!!!! I can't wait to see some pics!!!

Sorry you are having problems with the leggy growth! Man I have trouble with the whole not enough and too much light thing! When I first setup the 55g as a High light high tech tank I had 2-55w PC on it, and I grew Lud like you wouldn't believe! Very Beautifully colored, and the other plants that were supposed to like medium high to high lights did pretty good till BBA took over the tank and I would up tearing it down when we bought our current home. I then got tired of the high cost of the square pin PC bulbs so I switched to T5HO 48" X 2 Ah supply light kit. Then everyone said I had way too much light, and I did because the amount of Co2 I was dumping into the tank was CRAZY! I was somewhere around 6-8bps almost 2 times the amount of ferts for a 55g, and was trimming every other day!!! So I went to 1- 48" T5HO, and now my stem plants are leggy! ??????

So ANYWAY I will be very interested to see how Ya come out on your 90!!! My 55g is in serious need of some TLC, since I have been gone soo much this summer! So HOPEFULLY I can get it done in the next few weeks! Then maybe we can figure out this light thing together! Ya know us Texans need to stick together!!! LOL 

Well BEST OF LUCK on the Krib fry!!! If they make it to selling size I would LOVE to get some from Ya!!! 

Drew

P.S. Any good Fish/Plant shops in Your Area?


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## NWA-Planted

Babies!!! Yea the lighting thing is tricky, I run 4x80 on my 125 for the full photo period, but I also use 2x 6500 and 2x10k. when I removed my shaded acrylic I saw an immediate return ofbba... Spot treated with h2o2 and cranked up the co2 if that doesn't slow or stop the algea growth will have to adjust the photo period as raising the fixture wont work with out some cabinet on top...

Can't wait to see baby pictures!


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## Complexity

HD Blazingwolf said:


> well i can tell u that on my 29 gallon. i have again 28 inches from substrate. and i dont have leggy growth.. so u having the same fixture is puzzling and 9 inches closer..... WILD i know unless ur reflectors are realllllyy nasty and ur acrylic shield is REALLLLLYY nasty i don't see how its possible but the sign is obvious


My reflectors are in great shape. I even cleaned them when I replaced the bulbs a couple of months ago. There were some scuff marks on the shield, but I was able to polish most of them out. The few scratches left in shouldn't cause that much of an affect.



> blue lights penetrate further so for less lighting i run the 6500k and midday on the outside and the aquaflora and redwave in the middle on mine since they are loaded with blue spectrum.. this gives the midday burst a real brightup but otherwise keep the normal lights less bright (at least that's how plants see it )


So you have four different types of bulbs running? Did you just replace them at different times so you got different brands or did you want to run each of them for a specific reason?

I hadn't thought about the blue light penetrating further. But does that necessarily mean the red isn't able to penetrate far enough to reach the bottom of the tank? For example, using fictitious numbers, if the red could reach 10' and the blue could reach 20' feet, then indeed, the blue could penetrate further than the red. But both are perfectly capable of reaching 2'. So the only time the position of the red/blue bulbs would really matter is if the red bulb was at the end of its range of penetration. Otherwise, I don't see how a couple of inches either way is going to make that much of a difference.


----------



## Complexity

BoxxerBoyDrew said:


> FREAKIN AWESOME NEWS on the Krib fry!!!! I can't wait to see some pics!!!


Thanks! I just got my brand new fancy camera that's so fancy, I have no idea how to get a decent pic out of it! LOL! I guess I'll have to RTFM to figure it out.



> Sorry you are having problems with the leggy growth! Man I have trouble with the whole not enough and too much light thing!


I'm not really having an overall problem with leggy growth. Mainly just a couple of plants. I actually removed them from my 90g yesterday because they were growing too fast and I have the plants in some of my other tanks. But I did notice one of my better plants seem to stretch a little which is what piqued my curiosity to start checking into the lighting question.



> Well BEST OF LUCK on the Krib fry!!! If they make it to selling size I would LOVE to get some from Ya!!!


Thanks! It's really early still, but mom and dad are doing an excellent job so far. They were successful with their first brood (except dad wouldn't let mom help raise the kids) so I have high hopes. I'm especially happy to see that they're both working together to raise the fry. I was also able to see the fry eating baby brine shrimp which is another great sign.



> P.S. Any good Fish/Plant shops in Your Area?


There are lots of LFSs since our city is so big. Different stores are better at different things so it's usually best to go to the store that fits whatever is needed at the time.


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## Complexity

NWA-Planted said:


> Babies!!! Yea the lighting thing is tricky, I run 4x80 on my 125 for the full photo period, but I also use 2x 6500 and 2x10k. when I removed my shaded acrylic I saw an immediate return ofbba... Spot treated with h2o2 and cranked up the co2 if that doesn't slow or stop the algea growth will have to adjust the photo period as raising the fixture wont work with out some cabinet on top...
> 
> Can't wait to see baby pictures!


I was all psyched about taking pictures as soon as my new camera arrived until I actually got it and tried to take pictures with it. Sooooo many options, OMG! My first pics were awful. So I'll have to learn how to use my camera before I can get the pics I want.

I think BBA is there to taunt us. Anytime we think we've got it all figured out, it creeps back in to laugh at us and return us to our lowly human selves. We only _think_ we've beaten BBA when it's gone from our tanks, but in truth, the BBA is just toying with us, lurking in the shadows, ready to rush back in the instant we turn our backs. :tongue:


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## BoxxerBoyDrew

Yep the new cameras can be a Booger Bear to figure out! Heck my parents got new cameras last month, so they gave me their old ones. The camera I usually use is one I bought when I first started working a Circuit City in the mid 90's!!! The ones from my parents are only 3 or 4 years old, and I can't do anything but point and shoot with one of them so far!!! So I am going to have to sit down with the book and try to figure it out! It is a pretty high tech Sony, and their menus can be hard to figure out!

Anyway Good Luck on the new Camera, problem plants, BBA and especially the Krib Fry!!!
Drew

P.S. Might be headed your was next month to visit a Cousin, so if we do get toward the Houston area I will let Ya know so You can tell me which LFS to go to!


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## Complexity

Thanks for all the good luck! My old camera is a 12 year old point and shoot so you can only imagine the learning curve I'm going through. I'll be happy to point you towards our LFSs around here when you visit your cousin. :smile:


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## HD Blazingwolf

Complexity said:


> My reflectors are in great shape. I even cleaned them when I replaced the bulbs a couple of months ago. There were some scuff marks on the shield, but I was able to polish most of them out. The few scratches left in shouldn't cause that much of an affect.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have four different types of bulbs running? Did you just replace them at different times so you got different brands or did you want to run each of them for a specific reason?
> 
> I hadn't thought about the blue light penetrating further. But does that necessarily mean the red isn't able to penetrate far enough to reach the bottom of the tank? For example, using fictitious numbers, if the red could reach 10' and the blue could reach 20' feet, then indeed, the blue could penetrate further than the red. But both are perfectly capable of reaching 2'. So the only time the position of the red/blue bulbs would really matter is if the red bulb was at the end of its range of penetration. Otherwise, I don't see how a couple of inches either way is going to make that much of a difference.


remember hoppy's teachings!!!! light is logarythmic in its decline of intensity due to distance

if blue is capable of penetrating further then its PAR value will be higher at distance

i have 4 different bulbs for different spectrums. plants may not even notice the difference but it provides a wider variance of light. its nice on the eys as well. looks very.. natural

aquaflora midday's look very green so it is actually being moved to the back of mine and the ge starcoat is being moved to the front
in the middle closest to me i have the wave point red. it has awesome blues in it. looks like a purple bulb and it is truly my favorite. in conjunction witha more "white" light it makes the tank look very natural. further away in the middle is the aquaflora


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## Complexity

All the info that Hoppy came out with happened while I was away, studying to finish my degree. So I feel like I'm caught in this time warp. One day, I was here being told one thing. Then I came back, and everything changed. So now I'm being told that what was working so well for me in the past _can't_ work for me now. But that makes no logical sense.

If the lighting is too high now, then it would have been too high back then. But it wasn't too high back then, so why am I being told it's too high now?

Who determined what PAR value was low, medium, high, and too high? And by what means were these values set?

I missed all that. But you know, it doesn't really matter. What matters is getting my system in balance, and I do that by listening to my tank. If the plants in my tank are happy, then that's what matters. If they aren't happy, then I need to make adjustments until they are happy. If my plants are happy in an environment outside the range of what someone else has posted as ideal, then so be it. Last I looked, the plants couldn't read the posts.

Your eyes can definitely see more than mine can. I can't distinguish between the subtle colors from the lighting that you've described. That may explain why I love red plants so much, to the point of being garish. If my eyes can't perceive subtle color differences, then I need more vivid color differences for my eyes to see it.


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## HD Blazingwolf

I agree there are wdie ranges. And not saying u need to adjust anything. Im just telling u what i percieve as far as plant growth and some seems leggy. I dont see how honestly as you have more light than i do

Aquatic Plants caaannnnooott use more than 200 par in most cases. There are a few that can but as a general rule it has been proven that growth is not faster beyond 200 par.

So we do know the high end.. this forum has gone towards a lower light fad.. even my high tech is lower light than it can be.. i probably have around 40 to 50 micromoles of par at my substrate which is considered medium light as anything less than 30 is low

I do highly urge u to continue following ur system as a guide. If every aquarist on here did that we,d have far fewer discussions and this sight would be for nought


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## styxx

HD Blazingwolf said:


> I agree there are wdie ranges. And not saying u need to adjust anything. Im just telling u what i percieve as far as plant growth and some seems leggy. I dont see how honestly as you have more light than i do
> 
> Aquatic Plants caaannnnooott use more than 200 par in most cases. There are a few that can but as a general rule it has been proven that growth is not faster beyond 200 par.
> 
> So we do know the high end.. this forum has gone towards a lower light fad.. even my high tech is lower light than it can be.. i probably have around 40 to 50 micromoles of par at my substrate which is considered medium light as anything less than 30 is low
> 
> I do highly urge u to continue following ur system as a guide. If every aquarist on here did that we,d have far fewer discussions and this sight would be for nought


I agree. It is interesting how the change from WPG to PAR has evolved. But such is the case with emerging technologies and knowledge. Personally, I'm in favor of more information rather than less, but following one's instincts vis-a-vis their plant health and growth rates is equally important. I think that we're probably at the same point in terms of micromoles of PAR at substrate level, though I'm seriously tempted to increase that higher because of the unique nature of LED lighting. Anyway, great advice HD Blazingwolf. I concur wholeheartedly...


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## HD Blazingwolf

where ya at?!!!?? ur presence is missed on this forum!!


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## Complexity

My daughter needed me so I was helping her. I'm back now and have been catching up a little on the old threads, but I'm still really tired.

My 75g and 90g need to be trimmed like mad so that's going to be next on my agenda for these tanks. The growth is phenomenal now, and it only takes a week for the plants to hit the surface and take over the whole tank!


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## HD Blazingwolf

man that's fast.. mine are super slow pokes


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## Complexity

Well, I'm really pouring on the light, CO2, and ferts so everything is in hyperdrive right now. I will probably slow things down a little later since I don't think I can keep up with this pace of growth. But it's fun for now.


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## HD Blazingwolf

i still dunno how u do it. ill run out of c02 in three days with that much light


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## Complexity

It's not that much light. I dropped the light on the 75g so it's just the 2 bulbs running most of the time. I only burst it with the 4 bulbs for 1 hour. I do have a long photoperiod, but I've always had that even with my low tech tanks.

Now my 90g is a different story. I am cranking the light on that one, but so far, it's handling it just fine. Same 12 hour photoperiod, but with a 5 hour burst.

The CO2 is no different with the added light. Just crank it up as far as you can. The 10 pound cylinder should last me 3-6 months. If I remember right, you had a leak in your system which is why you ran out so fast.


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## Complexity

Oh, a couple of updates.

First the sad news. The Pelvicachromis lost their fry. I don't know what happened. One day I noticed they had about half the fry, then the next day they were all gone. I suspect the fish picked them off at night. I have 7 juvenile torpedo barbs in the tank so maybe they got the fry? Hard to say. It's either that or the CO2 got them, but if it was the CO2, then I would have expected all the fry to die at the same time and to have died right away. Well.. it happens. The good news was that the male and female were working together as parents which is an advancement of the last time so they've made progress as a couple. I'm sure they'll go at it again.

In other news, regarding the leggy growth, I moved the two plants that concerned me most of all to my 29g low tech tanks, and the plants are doing well there. They aren't leggy in those tanks! So it would seem the leggy growth was caused by what I thought -- the plants were growing too fast in the high tech tanks. They needed to slow down. This is an interesting finding given the discussion regarding light as the light didn't appear to be the root cause.

It's all a matter of balance, and I think when I'm cranking the CO2 and ferts so high, weedy plants respond by growing too fast, causing everything to grow out of proportion which makes the space between nodes too large. The growth appears leggy, but it may be just overly large nodes, if that makes any sense.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Thats wild... about the leggy gorwth.. now if u could only setup a control experiment to add them to a fishless tank with the same lights but add more c02? Id be curious to see what happens there..
Ive had plants grow smaller leaves due to not enoug c02 and then get closer to the light and the leaves get bigger. Turn down lights or add more c02 and growth is consistent.. so im curious if the all power c02 molecule might play a role

Thats sad about the fry but im glad to hear the couple is working out their differences


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## Complexity

I've had a very busy week so things are off track on my tanks right now. I missed my last water change and didn't dose ferts all this last week. Not a good idea with so much light. My 75g needs a good cleanup which I hope to do later today. I just finished cleaning up my 90g this morning.

The plants in both tanks had grown to the surface and had begun to take over the surface, shading the shorter plants. So I'm doing a pretty drastic pruning of the faster growing plants to bring them back under control. My 90g is doing fine even though it's getting the most light. My 75g has a mix of some good growth and some plant dieback. The plants that have died are polluting the water so I need to get that cleaned up.

In a way, having the fry not make it is a slight blessing since it lets me be more vigorous with cleaning the tank than I would be if the fry had made it. In fact, that's one reason why I need to do so much cleaning up in that tank as I withheld cleaning out certain areas because of the fry. Now I can get in there and clean it out.

I still have some algae issues with the 75g, but the bright green algae that I've been battling is beginning to recede finally. I'm hoping this is a sign that the tank is turning the corner to maturing. If so, then I should be able to get things in good shape once I get the dead gunk out of the tank.


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## HD Blazingwolf

YAY!!
lemme know if u need anything. i'd gladly pretend clean ur tank


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## Complexity

I'd gladly let you pretend clean my tank! I could definitely use the help right now! :hihi:

I'm about to get started cleaning it. I'm also cleaning out my canisters today (just one of the two per tank). They really need it.

Hopefully, I'll be able to get my tanks back in shape this weekend so I can take a break and enjoy them. :smile:


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## HD Blazingwolf

make sure to take good pictures!!!


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## Complexity

I didn't take any pics. I haven't had time to figure out how to use my fancy new camera yet. It's on my list of things I want to do when I get the tanks back in shape.

Oh, my aching back! I spent hours working on that tank, and I'm still not done! I ended up uprooting half of the plants, trimming them, and replanting them. Too much leggy growth with dead leaves that's polluting the tank. Once I got into it all, I could see that was what I really needed to do, but omgoodness, did it take a long time!

I didn't even get the canister cleaned. I ran out of time. So I did a 50% water change while trying to suck up as much of the dead stuff as I could. I'm going to go back at it tomorrow. The tank started getting staghorn algae so I need to clean that off of everything, do another water change to suck up the rest of the dead stuff I missed, and then clean out one of the canisters. That should get things back in shape again.

I'll be so glad when this tank settles down so I can just go into normal planting and maintenance mode.


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## HD Blazingwolf

BUT that's all the FUN!!! it can be painstaking and annoying sometimes but the work o the desired goal is what i enjoy most.
i don't mind the desired goal at all though so i can see where ur comming from


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## Complexity

What I'm doing right now isn't a lot of fun. Not for me anyway. I prefer to enjoy watching the plants grow, trimming them, reshaping them, moving them around. Not so much cleaning up after parts of them have died. But if it wasn't for the challenge, the success wouldn't be as sweet when it comes so for that reason, I appreciate this kind of work.

So after taking more Aleve for my aching back, I started back at work on the 75g. Since the green algae I had been fighting was showing signs of stopping, I decided to make the effort to clean it out. If it's really gone, this will make things look better. If it's not really gone, at least I'll be able to tell how fast it's still spreading by how quickly it comes back. Plus, I still have a little BBA and now the beginnings of staghorn (which I'm sure is because of the high organic content that I'm cleaning out now) so I figured it was a good time to do a thorough cleaning overall.

So far, I've scrubbed the wood clean. I can't take it out of the tank so I had to do it right there in the tank, fish and all. It was funny fighting the otos and amanos! You'd think they'd be frightened by all my scrubbing, but nope! I had to force a few to leave the branch I was working on. I used a couple of stiff brushes that are kind of like toothbrushes and scrubbed every inch of every branch as best I could. That took about an hour or so which is why my back ends up hurting when I'm doing all this.

Next I removed the plumbing inside the tank for one of my canisters. I scrubbed it really well and then bleached it to kill any missed algae. Then I scrubbed it down again, treated it with Prime, and have just put it back in the tank. It looks so clean!!

I'm taking a small break, and then I'll clean the plumbing for the second canister. That one has more algae on it so it'll take more time to clean it, but it'll be very much worth it.

When I'm done with that, then I'll clean the glass really well, and then it'll be time to clean one of the canisters and do another water change. I may uproot and replant some more of the plants while I'm at it. The whole tank will probably take me the whole day to finish, but it'll be so worth it when I'm done!


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## HD Blazingwolf

Your wood answer, clown pleco. You need them.. one keeps my manzanita looking lika it was sanded by the gods themselves


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## Complexity

I'm going to get a flash pleco (L204). I adore them! I had one for many years. I lost him only recently and want to get another one, but I want to get things settled before I add more fish to the tank. I currently have 3 adult BNs in a holding tank that I could add, but getting them back out would be extremely difficult so I'm not going to put them in. When I can finally figure out my new camera, I want to take pics of them and sell them to someone who would better appreciate them.

Got the plumbing for canister #2 scrubbed, and it's now soaking in bleach. Taking a break before I start cleaning the glass. This is taking a long time since I'm doing a very thorough job. It's my hope that this will be the final turn around for this tank.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Well i can understand. If it helps, they stay small at about 3 inches


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## Complexity

Yeah, it's just that I don't think I can have more than one type of pleco in each tank. And since I absolutely adore the flash pleco, that's the one I insist on having to the point of foregoing all other plecos.

Let me find some pics of my previous flash pleco. I think they are the prettiest plecos out there, especially their tail!


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## Complexity

This isn't my picture, but it's a really great one that shows off the flash pleco's tail really nicely. I also like that the adults retain their contrasting black/white colors really well. A stunning fish in my eyes.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Indeed. Is it of the panaque family? Very prettyI personally think any of the panaque family is pretty. Striking colors and good patters


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## Complexity

Yeah, he's listed simply as _Panaque sp._ to be exact.

http://www.planetcatfish.com/catelog/species.php?species_id=126

I found my first one by accident. He was misnamed so I had no idea what I was getting. I just knew he was really pretty. As he grew up, I came to like him even more. I've looked at getting a different pleco, but I just don't like any of the others the same way so I've decided that I'm going to stick with this one. I'm going to put one each in my 75g and 90g tanks.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Well being of the panaque family. He will handle ur wood anyway. Their diet primaryily consists of wood .. they have awesome brown poop to go with that diet


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## Complexity

Yeah, I know. I think that's how I lost my first one. After having him for 5 years, he died inexplicably while I was in the process of switching my tanks around. Then I realized that I had taken the wood out of the tank he was in. I had originally planned to move all the fish over to my 90g around the same time, but changed my mind since I was still in school and had gotten busy studying. So I decided to just leave the fish in the 75g until the semester ended. Unfortunately, it didn't connect with me that it meant leaving my pleco in the tank without wood. Not seeing him didn't surprise me so I wasn't worried until I couldn't find him when I moved all the fish over. He was just gone. Eventually, I found his bones. I could only deduce that he died of starvation because I hadn't realized that he didn't have any wood.


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## HD Blazingwolf

That would have made me cry personally!!
im sorry to hear that..

AND LEARN HOW TO USE YOUR CAMERA!! i wanna see some hot shots
on a side note. i was gonna take some shots of hygrophilia araguaia so u could see what it looks like, but my camera has come up missing, between dog, child, or ghosts. its gone


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## Complexity

Ack, find your camera! I certainly hope your dog hasn't taken up the hobby of photography. Could you just imagine the pictures a dog would take? LOL!

I would have loved to have taken pictures of the tank with all I'm doing to it. It's a pretty big change. I'm still working on it. Lights are supposed to go out in 20 minutes, and I haven't even started on the canisters yet. I decided to uproot and replant more of the plants which is taking up more of my time, but I know it's the best thing to do.

I still have the R. macrandra to clean up and replant, then I can start on the equipment.


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## HD Blazingwolf

u need night lights !!!!! i gotta take a picture of mine.. the best thing i ever DIY'ed its my favorite viewing time.. cameras can't take good pictures of it. but its very low light but everything is crisp and clean, easy to see
if i get my camera i'll take a shot of it for ya


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## Complexity

I have night lights! But I don't think I can get much cleaning done with them on! LOL!

I'll just run the lights late tonight. They're actually lifted up above the tank. I have the canopy configured with brackets that can turn the light fixture into a hanging fixture to give me full access to the tank when I'm working on it. So the tank's lighting has been decreased from normal for the last 2 days so it shouldn't hurt if I run them a little longer tonight.


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## HD Blazingwolf

well stop talking to me!! get it done girl


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## Complexity

I did! LOL! But now I'm done for the night. I'm down to the equipment part, and I didn't want to start doing that when it's so late and I'm so tired. I'll start off on that in the morning. Plus, this will let the tank run overnight to pick up whatever crud it can which will get cleaned out when I clean out the canister. So that's not such a bad thing anyway.

I had no idea it would take 3 days to clean out this tank!


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## HD Blazingwolf

here's a shot of my lighting configuration. i know i told u i would take a shot
and a shot of the tank with clean driftwood thanks to the pleco 
platns are still regrowing


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## Complexity

Wow, your lights are so colorful! You have the most unique mixture of lights I've ever heard of.

While cleaning my tank earlier, I remembered our conversation about the lights. So I looked at my lights and realized that I put both of my aquaflora bulbs in the front of the fixture. So I've decided to move the fixture back a little to center those bulbs over the middle of the tank.

Your tank looks great! The pleco certainly does keep that wood clean! :hihi: Is that blyxa separating the foreground from the stems in the back? It's looking really good. I'm losing a lot of my blyxa. Not sure why. What is that you have planted in the foreground?


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## HD Blazingwolf

thanks, that is blyxa, it can be a temperatmental plant
how deep did u plant it? i find depth makes a big differenceo n that plant. don't plant deep. and once it grows roots, pull it up a little
the forground is starogyne repens. its about to get really bushy. i did my first trim today, NOT shown in picture

EDIT: tom barr has a very unique mixture himself


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## Complexity

That may be my problem with the blyxa then. I planted it pretty deep because the roseline sharks like to eat it so they pull it up. I'll pull them up a little. Thanks for the tip!

Your S. repens is looking really good! I got some S. 'low grow' awhile back and almost lost it. It started melting pretty bad. But a little bit hung in there. I then split what I had between the 75g and 90g tanks (thinking that would give it two chances at succeeding). I lost it all in the 75g, but the pieces in the 90g finally rooted and started growing.


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## HD Blazingwolf

You cant move starogyne. It melts everytime u put it in a new tank.. 
If ur sharks are eating blyxa, thats multiplying the problem. It quickly disassociates itself from damaged leaves.

And thanks for the compliment but the repens should start really going nuts in about 2 more weeks now that its been trimmed. My loaches are nibbling at it and araguaia which is making it hard for those plants to survive


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## @[email protected]

hey, blazingwolf, what kelvin ratings are those bulbs? id be very interested to see what they fixture as a whole looks like under a spectrometer. ive never seen one with so much variety.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Ge starcoat 6700k. Geisemann midday - 6000k.. geisemann aquaflora ur guess is as good as mine
Wavepoint redwave- guess again it is the purple bulb though and also my favorite. Makes the tank look much more natural. Even by itself its beautiful and doesnt look purple at all once the light enters the water


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## Complexity

Got the uv sterilizer bulb changed out! I'm actually glad I did, but not because of the bulb. I found that the uv sterilizer was full of dead baby MTS snails! I don't normally open up the uv sterilizer, and I hadn't thought that I'd need to clean it out after I had killed all the snails. Fortunately, they were all dead (which is why I ran bleach through the entire system before I started over). It was a strong reminder of why I went to such great lengths to get rid of those snails.

Now I'm just waiting to see if the connections are solid. One connection has given me fits with a very slow leak. I have never liked the way the uv sterilizer hose bibs are made. They are notorious for leaking. One connection just would not stop leaking so I cut off the old hose end to ensure a fresh connection. That seemed to help, but it still had a tiny leak. Loosening the hose clamp seemed to help. I think I had it too tight. Last I checked, it still had the tiniest leak, but I'm hoping it's just residual water from before.

Once I can get the connections solid, then I will start cleaning out the canisters. After that, I'll do another water change with a thorough vacuuming of the crud on the substrate (not plunging, but just getting what's sitting on top), then I should be done.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Baby steps.. if u clean the canns. Dont vacuum. Do that tomorrow or the day after. Bacteria are fast responders but dont take all their food at once.
Ive seen this cause problems in my tanks before. I.E. algae

What do the barbs look like? I might be able to help you get them to seal


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## Complexity

No, just the opposite. If I clean the canisters, I need to vacuum. The stuff I'm vacuuming up is deteriorating plant debris which is throwing ammonia into the tank, requiring bacteria to convert it to nitrite and then nitrate. If I clean one of the canisters, I'm reducing the amount of bacteria available to do that job. So it's helpful to simultaneously remove the plant debris, thus reducing the need for bacteria. Ordinarily, I would agree with you if the vacuuming was removing more bacteria from the substrate than crud, but that's not what's happening in this case.

Also, remember I'm only cleaning one of my two canisters. This is why I like to run dual canisters. Plus, each canister is loaded with a ton of biomedia which I do not thoroughly clean even when I do a thorough clean out of a canister. It merely gets a gentle dip in treated water. Where I lose the most bacteria is cleaning out the sponges, but I have to do that because they get clogged if I don't.

Here's the hose barb: http://www.amazon.com/Coralife-Turb...1344199696&sr=8-2&keywords=coralife+hose+barb. It's hard to tell in the picture, but the small end that sticks out is the only part in which the hose can fit onto. I use a metal hose clamp (that you close with a slotted screwdriver) which I think is about 1/2" wide. It almost completely covers that whole part. From the design of the hose bib, the connection depends on the one area of the largest diameter. The rest of the hose bib slants downward which is great for getting the hose on, but horrible for getting anything for the clamp to hold onto.


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## Complexity

Alright, I think I finally got it to stop leaking! I decided to try to do it a different way. I managed to find a thinner hose clamp, just thin enough to fit in the flat part between the base and the nipple. It's only about 1/4", and I don't like clamping just the very end like that, but I guess it's better than clamping just the highest edge of the nipple. I also added a little of my o-ring lubricant to help act as a sealer. So far, so good!

I'm going to give it a little time under pressure to be sure it's solid, and if all goes well, then I can finally move forward. Dang, that one hose connection ate up a lot of time!


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## HD Blazingwolf

wow, that is a horrible design

And i remember.. but i would think u would just rinse the cannister in treated water. won't lose much bacteria that way

sponges are easy to clean with a rolling method. and u can save all the bacteria!!!

next time i do a clean i'll take a pic of my media on my shrimp tank, it has no mechanical media.. all bio and takes 5 minutes to clean every 2 months


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## Complexity

I clean the sponges outside with the garden hose. It has enough pressure to push everything out of the sponge material, making everything clean again. I'm sure there are other ways of doing it, but this is how I prefer to do it. The sponges aren't intended to be part of the biomedia. They're there only for mechanical filtration. I only clean them out every 2-6 months so it's not that big of a deal.

In this case, I'm really glad I chose the particular canister to clean that I did. When I bleached everything, I still didn't trust the sponges I had been using. Even after boiling them, I still didn't want to use them. The only problem was I had ran out of new sponges. So I used some old ones that had collapsed and were more dense than they normally should be. Plus, I didn't have all the right pore sizes. I lost track of which canister had the odd sponges, and it turned out to be the one I just cleaned. So I was able to replace them with the right sponges.

Everything is looking good now! I have the canisters up and running. One canister is completely cleaned while the other only got normal maintenance (cleaned out the floss and polishing pads, cleaned the motor and impeller, and lubed the o-rings). The uv sterilizer is up and running with no leaks. All that's left is a good water change!

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the tank responds to this. My fingers are crossed that this marks the turning point for the tank.


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## HD Blazingwolf

GOOD.. im glad its turning out good!!
its nifty how thigns work out sometimes!!! and i don't mean to be rude, so please don't take it that way
ur way is as good as mine... but if ur feelign froggy, take ur sponge and roll it with ur hands while in a bucket. the scrubbing action it makes on itself does a great job


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## Complexity

I'm done! I'm finally done! Yay! :biggrin: I had no idea the tank had gotten so bad. All that crud was hidden under the plants. It was awful. I'm surprised things didn't get worse than it did. If I had left it like that much longer, I would have had a huge algae farm and may have even had problems with fish health. I even question whether I had some rhizo algae in there. I've never seen anything like it. So much gunk at the bottom. But it's all gone now! Now it's more like a normal planted tank. Not perfectly clean, but none of that gunky stuff.

I've squeezed out the sponges in water before. The stuff that comes out is unbelievable! The water turns black instantly! Then I change the water and do it again. And again. And again. And I can never get it clean. I've even tried using the spray hose at the sink, but it's not strong enough pressure to penetrate to the deeper layer of the sponges. The waterpic in the shower does better, but really, who wants to clean that out in a shower? That's why I do it outside with the spray nozzle on the garden hose. That's got the pressure I need to get through the full thickness of the sponge.

BTW, I don't think you're being rude. You just like it your way and I like it my way, and that's okay. I think I want my sponges cleaner than you want yours which is where the main difference is. When I finish cleaning mine, they are so clean, they're like new again. I think you prefer to save some of the bacteria in your sponges.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Complexity said:


> BTW, I don't think you're being rude. You just like it your way and I like it my way, and that's okay. I think I want my sponges cleaner than you want yours which is where the main difference is. When I finish cleaning mine, they are so clean, they're like new again. I think you prefer to save some of the bacteria in your sponges.


IM perfectly okay with using bleach if i have to
i like mine to look spotless. do remember a little tap water wont kill all the bacteria. its pretty resilient stuff. my sump sponge has to get cleaned once weekly for all of the gunk that it gets.. so i understand ur plight

Im glad to hear its done. wha did you do with all the gunk?? i hear orchids love it  at least my parents' orchids love the gunk


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## Complexity

I don't think orchids would have liked this gunk so much. It wasn't mulm. It was more like a combination of decaying leaves and snot. That's why I question whether I had some rhizo algae in the mix. Or maybe the snot stuff was just some kind of fungus from all the decaying stuff. I don't know. Whatever it was, it's gone. It's in the trash and down the sink.

Lights on in 40 minutes. I can't wait to see the tank when it lights up!


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## HD Blazingwolf

bwahahahaha tank snot

be sure and smile real pretty when the lights come on. it makes the plants happy


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## Complexity

Should I talk to them, too? :hihi:


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## HD Blazingwolf

SOUNDS STUPID, but yes.. actually showing love for things makes a big differnece

i have a movie you should watch
"What The Bleep Do We Know Anyways" 
Its a whole lot of hooplah and heresay but it poses an interesting point
http://www.whatthebleep.com/crystals/ how many people do you know that Love a hobby and always find their stuff looks amazing and u mimic their every move and ur stuff looks blah??
ever wonder why that happens?


EDIT: lights are on. how does it look???


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## Complexity

Oh, so now you tell me! After all that work, all I needed to do was show love for my tank? LOL! :hihi: Actually, all the work I did was showing love for my tank. That's partly why it took me so long. :smile:

The tank looks fantastic! The water is so clear and the plants are so clean! :biggrin: There's still some traces of algae on the wood and on some of the plants, but nothing bad. I think I'll hit it with Excel this time around instead of H2O2 for what I hope will be the final knockdown.

I'm getting a few bubbles coming out of the canister I cleaned out, but it may be still purging. It always takes longer to clear out given the stuff I have inline.

The fish are looking very happy. I have one cardinal tetra that wasn't looking good yesterday. His colors were very pale and he was hovering in the corner, apart from the others. This morning, his color looks better and he's rejoined the group. I think he may have been disturbed by all the work I had been doing in the tank. Or he may have been affected by the crud that was in there.

My Pelvicachromis are merrily checking out all the caves again, house shopping it appears for their next breeding try. I normally don't disturb the caves in my tanks, but this time, I lifted them up and cleaned the crud out from inside them. So as far as the Pelvicachromis are concerned, they're all new again. I'm especially happy to see how well the male and female are getting along. They're acting very much like a bonded couple. Very little bickering between them. However, dad isn't too happy with this two surviving youngsters from his first brood. They're getting big enough to start the transition from juvenile to adult, and dad seems to think it's time for the children to move out of the house. Fortunately, the tank seems to be big enough for them all so far.


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## HD Blazingwolf

something you might also conisder is a monthly or bi-monthly 80-90 % water change
i do 80% weekly. fishies like it lots. it definitely helps remove a lot of suspended particles, during the draining stage,
I love happy fish!!!!! that's 90% of the reason i went to platned tanks, was for the fish
if i ever get my camera back. i gotta show you melanotaenia praecox displaying to each other
i wake up every morning to watch them now. beautiful displays, and the little yellow strip they light up is incredible


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## Complexity

I could go for 80-90% water changes. I think they're good for the tank in general, and I agree that the fish really like it.

I used to have praecox rainbows in my 75g a few years ago. They loved to swim with the roselines. They were quite a sight! But for some reason, they just weren't as hardy as my other fish and tended to drop off, one by one, over time. I've thought about getting more or maybe a different rainbow. There are just so many fish I really enjoy. I wish I could get them all!


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## HD Blazingwolf

my gosh, that last sentence is soooo true

and jebus i barely got one rainbow to jump out of the tank which they are known for
its absolutely my favorite fish just barely above pleco's

u make me wanna get a pelvicachromis taeniatus.. they really are prety fish
also im not trying to say u should do it every week. although i do notice the benfits. consistent 50% changes aren't enough for me. back when i was doing all 50% changes. i still did an 80-90 once per month to kinda reset the tank


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## Complexity

I wouldn't do it every week. Too many tanks. It would take too long. But every now and then, I can see myself doing it. I already do it every now and then. I'm very much in favor of large water changes. I always love how the tank looks with fresh water, and I can't help but believe it's good for the fauna and flora in the tank.

I think you'd really enjoy watching a breeding pair of Pelvicachromis taenitus. They are very interesting fish. They don't just swim around the tank all day long. They have very specific behaviors, and they are most especially enjoyable when they pair up.

I started keeping aquariums when I was a kid. Back then, the traditional Kribensis (Pelvicachromis pulcher) was highly popular so in the mix of all the fish I got, I ended up getting some of them. Eventually, two paired off and started breeding. I remember watching them in the tank at night. They just fascinated me with how they raised their young. Unlike most fish, they raised them together, taking turns at watching over them and escorting them around the tank. I used to laugh that they would take them around the tank, telling them, "Now this is this plant (plastic back then), and this is this cave, and watch out for that fish, he's mean, and so on and so on." For all I know, maybe they really do teach their young. They definitely tell the young when it's safe to swim around and when they need to lie very still on the substrate to hide. They'll even "call" the fry to hide at times. So between their incredible breeding colors, their mating rituals, the way they care for the eggs, and then how they work together to care for the free swimming fry, they are simply fascinating fish all the way around. I have never seen any other fish bond together and then care for their young they way Pelvicachromis do. I think you'd really enjoy them if you ever had the opportunity to have a compatible pair.


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## wacky

Super nice tank!!!


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## Complexity

Thank you! :smile:


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## HD Blazingwolf

I think ur right. Id love to see some babies that my other inhabitants wouldnt be as likely to see as snacks since they have parents protecting them!


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## bluestems

Wow, what a gorgeous tank! Love the reds & the textures. =)

Good luck with the move!


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## HD Blazingwolf

so on tuesday it was sponge cleaning time. i felt the need to wreck your thread and show you my sponge and how nasty it gets and how clean it gets by the "rub" method. takes much less time than trying to spray the gunk out which i know u said u use a water hose for

before and after shots


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## Complexity

bluestems said:


> Wow, what a gorgeous tank! Love the reds & the textures. =)
> 
> Good luck with the move!


Thank you! However, since I moved the tank a few years ago, I suspect you may have been looking at some of the older pictures. I've since restarted this tank. It's been going through the new tank issues with algae, but it looks like it's finally moved passed that. The clean up I did last weekend seems to have done the trick. None of the algae problems are coming back! Whoohoo!

I'm going to give it a little more time, then I'll start increasing the light. Slowly. Once I get the tank stable with higher light, I can then start moving plants around between my 90g and this 75g to better scape the two. I'm not sure how I'll put everything yet, but it'll be nice to get some order to the chaos, especially in my 90g.


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## Complexity

HD Blazingwolf said:


> so on tuesday it was sponge cleaning time. i felt the need to wreck your thread and show you my sponge and how nasty it gets and how clean it gets by the "rub" method. takes much less time than trying to spray the gunk out which i know u said u use a water hose for
> 
> before and after shots


Since it's my journal thread, you can post whatever you want in it. :hihi:

I know you love your method of cleaning sponges! I'm going to be hard headed and stick to my method for my sponges. Too bad we don't live in the same city where we could have a sponge cleaning contest! LOL!

What's most important is that we each found a way to clean our sponges with which we're happy. Your way looks to do a good job for you. :smile:


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## Complexity

I got some decent pics of the tank the other day that I'll try to post a little later. Came down with a cold that's zapping my energy so I haven't felt like doing much, but maybe I can get a few of the pics processed and posted.


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## HD Blazingwolf

Complexity said:


> Since it's my journal thread, you can post whatever you want in it. :hihi:
> 
> I know you love your method of cleaning sponges! I'm going to be hard headed and stick to my method for my sponges. Too bad we don't live in the same city where we could have a sponge cleaning contest! LOL!
> 
> What's most important is that we each found a way to clean our sponges with which we're happy. Your way looks to do a good job for you. :smile:


 
HAHA i'd do more than have a sponge cleaning battle 
and i wasn't trying to change ur mind... well maybe a little. but just showing u it is possible, WE have the technology

and be careful with that first sentence. im a horrible person. this friendly family oriented board is not safe from me. (though its the only forum im on)


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## HD Blazingwolf

I'm also curious if u ever got a chance to try the phosphorous scrub to see its nuclear cleaning powers+


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## Complexity

Nope on the phosphorus scrub. I'm actually running out of ferts so I just placed an order for some more.

Yeah, I just saw where your mind has gone to in the other thread. I think you've been working too hard and have become delirious and delusional. Now get your head back into aquarium talk before you get yourself in trouble. This _is_ a family oriented board. :smile:


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## HD Blazingwolf

Hahaha the best part is i typed it that way and realized what i said so i had to edit the italics. It was not intentional. I really did laug myself silly

For the record. U started it


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## Complexity

For the record, I realized how it came out after I had posted it, but I figured what the heck. I knew how I meant it when I said it. It just had a double entendre I hadn't anticipated when I first said it. Oops!

I think my funniest unintentional double entendre was when I was about 18. I stayed up late at night and would always request the same song. After awhile, the DJ began to recognize my calls (yeah, the only call at 3am asking for that same song) so we started talking. Eventually, I met him at the radio station. He had been crippled by polio as a child (yes, I'm old), and since he always wore shorts, one of his most obvious physical features upon first seeing him were his twisted legs. One night I showed up only to find he had a group of friends at the station, all of whom looked a lot like him (you know, the long hair, etc. from back then). It didn't help that they were all dressed pretty much alike, as well. He wasn't wearing his standard shorts and t-shirt attire. So it took me a second to pick him out from the crowd. When I finally spotted him, I exclaimed in my complete youthful innocence, "Oh, hi, there you are! I didn't recognize you with your pants on!"

 :icon_redf

I think the guys may still be laughing to this very day. LOL! :hihi:


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## HD Blazingwolf

Now that! Is hilarious!

Im old too. 26 and two kids
You know how i know im old. Cause old farts wake up at 5 in the morning
Guess who cant sleep past 6 30 on his day off? Me


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## Complexity

Oh, you're just a youngster. I'm almost double your age!

And I can tell you the real way of knowing when you're getting old: When your conversations with people begin to revolve around body parts (and I don't mean sexual). You know the kind: my back hurts, my blood pressure is getting high, I'm watching my blood sugar... all those wonderful conversations us "old" people get to have. :biggrin:


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## Complexity

Oh, not to mention when AARP starts sending you stuff in the mail and you discover you quality for the senior citizen discounts. Now that actually hurts! LOL!


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## Aquaticfan

Or comments like. I remember when I was 26. That's so long ago. Lol. Heck I've got a daughter that's over 20 now. That's when you will feel old. 

sent from my HTC EVO 3d


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## Complexity

Yup! One daughter over 20 and another just a few months away from the mark.

I remember when "old" was when you had teenagers. Now it's when the kids have grown out of being teens and are in their 20s. I don't want to even think about how old is old when the kids hit middle age! That's gotta be "really old"! LOL!


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## javajaws

I feel your pain. Mine are still in their teens. "Old" to me is when I no longer have to pay for their cell phones, car insurance, or college.


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## Complexity

Oh, goodness, no. Not having to pay for their cell phones, car insurance, or college is what I call parental success! LOL! :biggrin:


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## HD Blazingwolf

One can only hope....


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## Complexity

*Before Pics*

I got a few pics before I cleaned up the tank last weekend, but they're not very good. I was just messing with my new camera and not actually taking pics of my tank. Being the first pics I tried to take with my new camera, they came out horribly, especially the color. But they're the only pics I have of what the tank looked like before I cleaned it up. So I'm trying to clean up a few of the pics to show the "before" view of the tank.

This pic shows the strange green algae that I kept fighting in that tank. I never could identify this algae. I actually looked at it under the microscope, and it didn't match any of the algae we normally discuss in our tanks. It seemed unsusceptible to H2O2 and Excel, as well. It actually was quite pretty on the hardscape, but since it also got on my plants, I wanted it gone.

This algae had begun dying out on its own for some unknown reason. So I scrubbed it off the wood using a toothbrush. Fortunately, it seems to not be coming back.

If you look closely, you'll also see a few small tufts of BBA on the wood. I scrubbed this off, as well.










I'll post a couple more pics in a little bit.


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## Complexity

*Before Pics*

These pics are simply awful. The color is all wrong. The focus is off. Everything is wrong with them. But they do show the condition of the tank before I cleaned it up.

The plants were severely overgrown. Several of them had reached the surface several times, and rather than trim them properly, I simply trimmed the tips back to their point of origin. That gave me about a week before they hit the surface again. Then when I got really busy and came back from being out of town, some of the plants nearly covered the tank's surface. My goal was to get the plants to grow. Well, they grew! LOL!










The problem was that the lower parts of the plants were being shaded so they were dying. Plus, many of the plants had put out a mass of water roots that congested things and trapped a lot of debris. Add to that the earlier algae on the lower parts, and I had a mess. As a result, the lower parts of the plants began to melt, causing even more algae problems. I suspect I was getting the beginning stages of rhizo algae in some places.

I had seen this coming, but didn't want to disturb the tank too much since my pelvicachromis had just had new fry, but when they lost the fry, it was time to clean up the tank.

These pics fail to show the reds in the plants. They did have red coloring in them. I just can't pull it back out of the pics without making everything look even worse. So just know that the plants were not so yellow/green. That's just because I didn't know how to use my camera.


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## Complexity

*After Pics*

Here's the first after pic. I still need to learn how to use my camera, but the pics are better than they were before.

After seeing how overgrown the tank was, you can see why it ended up taking me 3 days to get the tank back in shape. I pulled up almost all of the plants, trimmed them properly, and replanted the stems I found to be in good health. I cleaned the entire tank, including all of the plumbing intake/outflow pipes. The wood was scrubbed clean with a toothbrush. And I worked hard to clean up all the crud that was littering the substrate. Now the tank not only looks much better, but is much healthier for the plants and fish.


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## Complexity

*After Pics*

These pics pan the tank, from the left side to the right side. If you look closey, you can see my Pelvicachromis swimming around. Their caves are also visible. Normally, the plants hide these, especially the caves in the back.

In this first pic, you can see my juvenile Pelvicachromis from the parents' first set of fry. They're close to the bottom, around the thermometer. I hope to be able to sex them sometime soon.










Very clean wood! The male Pelvicachromis was caught in this picture.










And the female Pelvicachromis was caught in this picture, swimming around with the roselines. The roselines are juveniles. I got them for $3.99 at PetSmart of all places! They were tiny when I got them, but they were all healthy. They've been growing great ever since.










Another nice shot of the female Pelvicachromis. Also, you can see just a little bit of algae left on the tips of my crypt balansae on the far right corner. I haven't treated for it as I'm hoping it'll go away on its own. Plus, I've been trimming them back when they reach the surface. I'll let them reach the surface later, but for now, I want the surface to stay clean.


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## Complexity

*After Pics*

Here are the rest of the pics I took the other day after cleaning out the tank. The pics aren't very good (way overexposed), but they're better than nothing, and I can use them to see how well the plants grow in the next few weeks.

This is my Clinopodium cf. brownei. It is an excellent plant. I have it in this tank, my 90g, and I've put some in my 29g to see how it would do with lower light and no CO2 or ferts. So far, it's done great in every tank I've put it in!










This is definitely one of my favorite plants. I've seen it called Ludwigia Red and Ludwigia hybrid red, but I think it's proper name is Ludwigia sp. 'Rubin'. It doesn't ship very well, but if it does make the trip and settles into the tank, it seems to grow pretty well. Not a rampant grower like most Ludwigias which is a welcome relief actually.

I started out with a couple of stems that branched out. So I've separated the branched stems in hopes of propagating it into a thicker grouping.










I can't believe this plant is growing as well as it is. I've had Rotala macrandra ‘Red’ a few times before, but it always arrives so dried out, it's near death. This time was no exception. In fact, these stems started from a couple of extras I received from a plant deal. I honestly didn't hold much hope that they'd make it. But they did!

I've been scared to separate the branches from the main stems, but they eventually fell apart, forcing the issue. So I trimmed off all the viable branches and planted them. They're actually doing pretty good! I'm starting to use a little Excel to help remove some of the old algae on the leaves which seems to be working.










My Bacopa caroliniana is doing great in my 75g and 90g tanks. The leaves are so huge! I finally had to chop it down and replanted only a few of the best tops.

My Pelvicachromis pair decided to sneak into the picture! I really love how well they've bonded as a pair. :smile:










This is probably one of the all-time easiest stems to grow in any tank. I have had this Ludwigia repens x arcuata for years. It's growing in almost all my tanks. It does just as great in my high tech and low tech tanks; however, it can grow very fast when given CO2 and ferts.

This was one of the plants that had completely taken over the surface of my tank a few times. I kept doing minor trimming, but it would just grow back to cover the surface by the next week. So I pulled it all up and planted just a few stem tips. It'll grow back like gangbusters soon enough.

I don't plan to keep this plant in this tank permanently, but used it mostly as a fast growing stem to maintain a higher level of plant mass while the tank was transitioning from a new tank to a more mature tank.










I'm really like this one. It's Ludwigia ovalis. It doesn't seem to like being pulled up and replanted very much. I'm getting dieback from the process. But it seems once it gets a good root system, it grows fine from there.

This was another one of the plants that branched quite a bit, causing a large top being supported by a couple of long, thin bottom stems. They began letting go so I had no choice but to trim up the branches and replant.










The Limnophila aromatica in this tank has strugged a bit, but it's finally beginning to show signs of better growth. I didn't cut the tops off the lower stems just yet, but I'll need to do that at some point since the lower parts of the stems aren't very healthy. I wanted to give the tops a chance to grow a little stronger before cutting them off. This has always been one of my favorite plants!










A closeup of one of the better looking Limnophila aromatica stems. I'm finally getting a little color!










I don't have this one listed in my database for some reason, but I believe it's Alternanthera reineckii. It strugged to grow for a long time, alternating between growing and then having setbacks. It finally started growing better, but I really resisted cutting up the branches for fear that might kill it. So far it seems to be doing pretty good. I need to learn more about this plants' needs to see why it tends to struggle in my tanks.










This is a terrible picture of some of my Bacopa. I think it's some of the Bacopa monnieri that I've had for several years.

What I like about this picture is that you can see 4 of my otos lounging around! I have about 25 otos in the tank. They're one of my favorite "regular" fish.










I tried very hard to get a picture of my female Pelvicachromis, but since these are some of the very first pictures I've ever tried to take with my camera, I don't have anything adjusted right. So the shutter speed is too slow so every move she made caused the picture to blur. This was the best I could get for now.

She's not in her breeding colors because I've disturbed her so much with all the cleaning in the tank. When she's colored up for breeding, the red becomes more intense and she turns almost black all around the red which really emphasizes the red color.










I managed to get the male Pelvicachromis in focus! He's not in his breeding colors, but he's still a very pretty fish.










That's it for now! I wish the pictures came out better, but I'll eventually learn how to use my new camera to get better pics. At least these were better than the first ones I tried to get!


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## fastfreddie

Vicki,
The tank looks stunning, and I'm sure it was a lot of work to get it there! You were the first person to help me on TPT when I started a planted tank in November 2008! I'm glad to see you are still at it, and making beautiful tanks for us all to enjoy!
Freddie


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## HD Blazingwolf

you are righ some of the colors are off a bit, but i will say this. cameras caputre colors we otherwise miss.

i've found c02 can make a difference in color as well. pictures taken with the same camera with c02 too low will appear bland and with c02 where it should be will be deeper colored to the camera

the rubin will actually turn a purplish color under the right conditions 











OTHERWISE
the cleaning looks amazing.. the tank definitely did need it. i'd agree it looked liek some rhizo was getting ready to grow.. tank looks great hot shot!
the chromis looks beautiful as well. excellent pair!


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## Karackle

As always, your tank is looking gorgeous! The colors of your plants are so amazing, it's almost enough to make me want to go high tech so I can get those colors too! :hihi:


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## Complexity

fastfreddie said:


> Vicki,
> The tank looks stunning, and I'm sure it was a lot of work to get it there! You were the first person to help me on TPT when I started a planted tank in November 2008! I'm glad to see you are still at it, and making beautiful tanks for us all to enjoy!
> Freddie


Oh, wow, isn't it amazing how this hobby keeps us interested for such a long time! Thanks for the nice words on my tank. I'm glad I was able to help you when you started and that you're still enjoying your tanks. Now you need to update your journals! Your tanks looked great in the last updates, but it's been a long time since you've posted any new pics. I'd love to see them!


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## Complexity

HD Blazingwolf said:


> you are righ some of the colors are off a bit, but i will say this. cameras caputre colors we otherwise miss.
> 
> i've found c02 can make a difference in color as well. pictures taken with the same camera with c02 too low will appear bland and with c02 where it should be will be deeper colored to the camera
> 
> the rubin will actually turn a purplish color under the right conditions


The colors are terribly off in the pics. While my rubin doesn't look as purple as yours, it's definitely as richly colored. It's just more of a rich red without the blue. But that may have something to do with our different lighting.



> OTHERWISE
> the cleaning looks amazing.. the tank definitely did need it. i'd agree it looked liek some rhizo was getting ready to grow.. tank looks great hot shot!
> the chromis looks beautiful as well. excellent pair!


Thanks! I'm really pleased with how it turned out. Best of all, it's been 2 weeks now, and the algae is not returning! That means the tank has finally switched over to the "mature" side. I had a feeling it was happening by everything I was seeing in the tank. Even though it had become a mess before the clean out, that was due to the plants becoming overgrown.

Now my 90g is becoming jam-packed with plant growth. I really, really need to get the plants sorted out between these two tanks.


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## Complexity

Karackle said:


> As always, your tank is looking gorgeous! The colors of your plants are so amazing, it's almost enough to make me want to go high tech so I can get those colors too! :hihi:


Thank you! The colors is what drives me to do the high tech setup. Well, the colors and the pearling. I don't know why, but I'm always mesmerized by watching the pearling each day. I'm so easily entertained! :hihi:

When I make myself take the time to finally figure out my new fancy fandangled camera, I might actually get some pictures that really show off the plant colors. They're much nicer than what the pics have shown so far.


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## HD Blazingwolf

The difference in color is due to lighting.
The tint of the plant is the same. I just have more blue to reflect.
I actually did a small bulb rearrange and it looks a little less purple.

My persicaria is a beautiful pink now thought.. and ill have u a decent shot of some hygro araguaia shortly. I know u had a question on that plant. Or a plant id in question maybe


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## Complexity

Looking forward to the pics!

I spent the day cleaning and moving rocks! LOL! Back when I switched my 90g from a cichlid tank to a planted tank, I pulled out the old rocks and put them on my patio. They've sat there ever since. I'm at the point that I need to start planning out my scapes for my 90g and 75g tanks, and in the process, I started pulling out rocks and whatnot. Which led me to wanting to clean up all my rocks... which led me to cleaning up the mess of rocks on my patio. So... I spent the whole day cleaning out three sets of rocks and the containers they were in.

I have to give my husband a lot of credit. He's not into my tanks, but he's willing to do some of the heavy work for me. I have no idea how many pounds of rocks he carried around for me today, but it was a bunch! Both our backs are going to be killing us tomorrow!

But I have nice, clean, organized rocks now! LOL! :hihi:


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## HD Blazingwolf

ALA hygro araguaia 

the red circle is proper growth. i had a huge melt off of araguaia, star repens, and macrandra and this is the resulting new growth.. the macrandra totally died

i feel like i got attacked by disease or a very hungry botia striata. platns just kept melting and melting

while others were okay?? i guess these were just tasty snacks 


I GUESS it would help to uplaod the pic !!!


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## Complexity

Red circle?

Sorry to hear about the melting. I doubt it's the loaches though. I had them in my 75g for many years, and they never ate any of the plants. Something else must have gone wrong. That's weird though. Maybe heat? Have your tanks been hotter recently with the hot weather we've been having?


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## HD Blazingwolf

picture uploaded.
tank stays at a comfortable 79 degree year round


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## Complexity

Yes, uploading the picture helps! LOL! :hihi:

That is definitely not the plant I have. The leaves are much more elongated. Thanks for the pic!

If it's not the temp, then I wonder what else could be causing your plants to melt?

I'm having something weird go on in my 75g right now. Certain plants, such as my Cabomba, are absolutely covered in oxygen bubbles. And I mean _covered_. I can't figure out why. I finally got the CO2 increased so that the drop checker is showing yellow, but wow, all those oxygen bubbles can't possibly be from pearling. There are so many on the plant that I can't even see the plant anymore! It's unreal!

I've checked to see if I'm getting any oxygen purging through one of my filters, causing microbubbles to shoot out of the spray bar, but I'm not seeing any. So I don't understand what's going on. The CO2 isn't gassing the fish so it can't be too high.


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## HD Blazingwolf

It means you have BUTTLOADS of light and enough c02 to keep them happy... HOW CAN U POSSIBL THINK SOMETHING IS WRONG.. your weird LOL. this is what should be happening
c02 strikes again 

mine do this all the time 

and yellow drop checker doesn't kill fish.. mine is all the time
even my 5dkh solution is yellow  my fishies are supposed to be dead by forum rules


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## Complexity

Yeah... but.... but... I like pearling, but this is nuts! It's beyond nuts! I honestly can't see the plant! It's literally covered in thousands of oxygen bubbles from head to toe!

Hmm... but that might explain why the cabomba has grown to the surface and beyond?


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## HD Blazingwolf

si senorita!! it does good stuff

i BET MONEY the bubbles are commming out of the stems of the bacopa as well 

you shouldn't get much if any green dot algae at this point either


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## Complexity

So do I have to go watch the cacomba to see if it's oozing oxygen to confirm it's pearling? That's right up there with watching grass grow and paint dry! LOL!


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## Complexity

Ah, I figured it out. The plants are pearling, but the unnatural amount of oxygen bubbles is caused by the slightest amount of algae starting to grow which has trapped the bubbles. So they're not releasing from the plant like they normally would. That's why the plant is covered with so many of them.

I just fed the fish, and when they're done eating, I'm going to do a full tank treatment of H2O2 and then do a water change. This is the first sign of algae I've seen since I cleaned the tank out a couple weeks ago.


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## HD Blazingwolf

well pearling is exciting to watch so its not truly like watchin grass

and bacopa has soft stems. if u've reached optimum c02 for ur lights. oxgen should be boiling out of the top few inches of stems.


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## HunterX

Hello Complexity. Hope you are doing well. Thanks again with the help with the firts. Since we last spoke I set up a 55 gallon. I dosed it also per your instructions and it's looking wonderful. I'm going to set up journal when I get some time. I did have a question for you. The pluming inside your tank looks pretty custom. Did you do that all yourself? Does the return being down that low effect the plants at all. I'm curious about it and interested in doing something similar.



Complexity said:


> These pics pan the tank, from the left side to the right side. If you look closey, you can see my Pelvicachromis swimming around. Their caves are also visible. Normally, the plants hide these, especially the caves in the back.
> 
> In this first pic, you can see my juvenile Pelvicachromis from the parents' first set of fry. They're close to the bottom, around the thermometer. I hope to be able to sex them sometime soon.


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## Complexity

Hi Hunter! I'm glad to hear all is going well with your 55g. Let me know when you post your journal. I'd love to see it!

The plumbing is kind of custom. I used the Lifegard Customflo Kit for the main plumbing, but modified it to the way I wanted it. For example, the kit uses plastic tubing to connect the spray bars, but I really don't like how that looks so I cut one of the pieces and glue it onto another one so the spray bars can connect directly onto the down pipe. Then on this side, I've added a surface skimmer. Again, I modified the connection. So instead of using the corrugated tubing that comes with the skimmer, I have it connected directly to the intake pipe. What you can't see that I have another intake connected just below the skimmer so that side does double duty of being a regular intake plus a surface skimmer. On the other side, I have two intakes that goes to my second canister.

There's also another spray bar that you can't see in the picture. It also goes along the entire back wall of the tank, but is much closer to the bottom of the tank. The lower spray bar injects the CO2 while the upper spray bar is just a normal return (has my uv sterilizer inline on it).

So I have two canisters running. One canister handles my CO2. It has two intakes and a long spray bar very close to the bottom of the tank. The second canister handles my uv sterilizer, has one intake and the surface skimmer, and is about midway up the back wall.

I don't have any problems with the returns being so low. In fact, I prefer them low. Having the CO2 injected so low in the tank helps to ensure that the CO2 is distributed throughout the tank (not just the upper portion of the tank). The second spray bar helps to keep the CO2 well mixed throughout.

When the tank isn't very heavily planted, the plants placed just in front of the spray bars can get pushed over a little, but it's not a big problem as they grow taller. The lower portions of the stems are usually strong enough to withstand the pressure. When I had the spray bars up higher, the top spray bar would push the tops of the plants, and that caused more problems. In fact, my 90g has the top spray bar up higher, and I'm not as happy with that arrangement. The tops of the plants are more sensitive to the water pressure blowing on them.

The more heavily planted the tank is and the more grown in the plants become, the less of a problem the water pressure becomes because the plants help to brace each other from getting pushed too much. They also serve to block the water flow which is one reason why I have the outflow water distributed the way I do. Instead of relying on one small area to feed the entire tank, the whole back wall basically feeds the tank with the outflowing water. Because the water is distributed throughout the long spray bars, the total pressure from any one spot is reduced so I don't have a single are with a super-high outflow. Instead, I have a large area of moderately high outflow.

I use this setup for 90g, 75g, and both 29g tanks. I've used it for several years and very much like the way it circulates the water throughout the tanks.


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## Complexity

Here you can see just how low the bottom spray bar is set. It's only an inch or two above the substrate.

The other thing I like about having the spray bars so low is that they are completely hidden once the plants grow in. Eventually, you won't be able to see them at all.


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## HunterX

Wow! As usual, that makes all the sense in the world. I have an issue with my stem plants getting tall and then being blown around by the filter outflow. If you move that outflow down lower, where the plants are stronger, it would have to have less of an effect. As a bonus it might help move debris from the back to the front of the tank where it’s easier to vacuum up. 

Great write up complexity! Thanks again. I plan to do this very soon. I will try and get my journal started this weekend. I have no time during the week now that I work full time, go to school full time, and work for the college part time (Public Speaking Tutor).

I wake up a 0500 just so I can get some exercise in and then dose my ferts. Do you think it would cause an issue to dose ferts three hours before the lights come on? The only other chance would be about 1930 when I get home from school. The lights are off then also. I do normally turn them on for a few minutes so I can enjoy my tanks and make sure everything is going well.


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## HunterX

Not trying to hack your thread. Just wanted to see what you thought.

My dad and I made that top. I was pretty excited about it.

One of my mollies had babies. 4 of them have made it without becoming dinner!


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## Complexity

HunterX said:


> Wow! As usual, that makes all the sense in the world. I have an issue with my stem plants getting tall and then being blown around by the filter outflow. If you move that outflow down lower, where the plants are stronger, it would have to have less of an effect. As a bonus it might help move debris from the back to the front of the tank where it’s easier to vacuum up.


Yeah, that's something I hadn't even thought of. It helps blow the crud off of the plants.

The main thing is to try different settings until you find the one that works for you and your tank. You'll notice that everyone's is a little bit different, yet most of the methods work very well. My method just progressed over time to what it is now. I'm sure yours will do the same.



> I wake up a 0500 just so I can get some exercise in and then dose my ferts. Do you think it would cause an issue to dose ferts three hours before the lights come on? The only other chance would be about 1930 when I get home from school. The lights are off then also. I do normally turn them on for a few minutes so I can enjoy my tanks and make sure everything is going well.


Dosing three hours before the lights come on will be fine. That way the ferts will be well distributed throughout the tank by the time the plants are ready to use them.


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## Complexity

HunterX said:


> Not trying to hack your thread. Just wanted to see what you thought.
> 
> My dad and I made that top. I was pretty excited about it.
> 
> One of my mollies had babies. 4 of them have made it without becoming dinner!


Of course, you know you're always welcome to post pics in my journal threads! I love seeing them! :smile:

And that canopy is simply gorgeous! One of the prettiest I have seen! I wish you were in my area so I could convince you to build one for me. You should be excited about it. It's really pretty!

Your plants are looking very good, too. Is that _hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta'_ on the left side, flanking the rocks? They are doing very well! Nice, lush specimens. What is the grassy plant just right of the middle? It's in the last picture, too. It looks like hairgrass, but it's taller. It's obviously happy in your tank, as well. In fact, all your plants look happy. For someone who's just recently started out in this hobby, you've certainly caught on quickly. Your tank is looking great!


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## sphack

Complexity,

Thanks for all the information over the past few months. Per our last thread hijacking a month ago, I have since found out that my kitchen faucet does indeed allow me to use an aqueon water changer. It does not vacuum very well using the sink attachment though if I just toss the hole part into the yard, it works well enough. Really nice for filling up the tank!

The algae is nearly gone. While I didn't pick up 50 (or should I say 49) amano shrimp for my 75g, 12 have been very happy eating away. Combine that with sufficient O2 (now that my BOD/algae attack/filter problems), the tank is starting to settle in nicely.

With the above mentioned filter problems, I have unfortunately needed to run for a few days w/o CO2 (!). I ended up needing to buy a new filter, mail the head unit of my Fluval to MA for testing and repair, which has left my tank w/o all the fun plumbed cabinet stuff (heater and CO2). Hopefully today I should get a new external pump to add flow and move water through the heater and CO2.

Thanks for the help, much appreciated! I've enjoyed reading through your adventures as well.

-Steve


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## Complexity

I'm glad you found a way to use a water changer that works for you. I know what you mean about the water pressure not allowing it to vacuum very well. The water pressure at my kitchen sink isn't very good either. I have to use the sink in my bathroom. Bless my husband for letting me use his sink since it's the closest to the door. He even lets me leave the adapter on the sink full time now. Yay! I use the hot and cold water turned on full blast to remove the water which gives the vacuum more suction. This turned out to be a pretty good idea because it clears the hot water pipes so I can use the hot water in the winter to match the temps in my tank. The only thing is that I always make sure all my tanks are within 50' of my husband's bathroom sink! LOL!

So sorry to hear about your filter. Good thing you're getting the CO2 running again so the algae won't have a chance to take over again. I hope they fix your filter and send it back to you quickly. That's got to be tough to have it gone like that!


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## Complexity

I got a few new pics today! I'm getting a little better with my new camera. The colors are more true to life now. Still a little too yellow, but better than before.

Full tank shots:



















Left side of the tank:










Right side of the tank:










My drop checker is definitely yellow now!










Here's looking at you kid! LOL! I was playing with the macro feature on my camera and got this pic of one of my otos.


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## garloki72

Skimmed through this whole thread and all I can say is WOW! The amount of change this tank has overgone in 4 years is amazing.


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## Jmlampert23

Looks AWSOME


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## HD Blazingwolf

So u just proved to alll the disbelievers. Yellow dc doesnt mean dead fish. Clearly ur fish are happy.. the spawing of the pelvicachromis proves this..

The colors look good!! Im very pleased with how this tank looks. Lots of varying species. One more the main reasons i want a bigger tank!


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## sinthesis

This tank is just gorgeous! I always think mine's pretty neat til I come see what you guys are doing, so lush and colorful and mature looking.


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## Complexity

garloki72 said:


> Skimmed through this whole thread and all I can say is WOW! The amount of change this tank has overgone in 4 years is amazing.


No kidding! Even I'm amazed when I look back at all this tank has been through. And I never did take pictures of the time when I was busily finishing my degree and let the tank go down to a low tech tank with mostly crypts.

To think I started out with the standard strip light and plastic plants! This tank has come a long way.



Jmlampert23 said:


> Looks AWSOME


Thank you! :smile:



HD Blazingwolf said:


> So u just proved to alll the disbelievers. Yellow dc doesnt mean dead fish. Clearly ur fish are happy.. the spawing of the pelvicachromis proves this..
> 
> The colors look good!! Im very pleased with how this tank looks. Lots of varying species. One more the main reasons i want a bigger tank!


Can you believe that I actually reduced the CO2 in this tank? I was running it at a higher concentration. I had my pH controller set to 6.2, but upped it to 6.4 so I could have a little margin for error. But even at 6.2 the fish were fine.

These pics show the reds a little better than the last pics. I still need to work on my camera adding too much yellow when the light hits the green leaves. There's some kind of setting for "warm" colors on my camera that I think is doing it that I need to hunt down and change, but this camera has so many settings, it's like a massive maze to try to figure out where any particular setting is. But the more I work with it, the better I get so I'll figure it out eventually.

You need to get a bigger tank. I think you'd love it. They're a lot of work, but the rewards are wonderful. There's nothing like sitting in the room and looking over to this huge display of plants and fish all lit up!


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## Complexity

sinthesis said:


> This tank is just gorgeous! I always think mine's pretty neat til I come see what you guys are doing, so lush and colorful and mature looking.


Thank you! I'm sure your tank is beautiful. I think we are all overly critical of our own tanks in comparison to others. As long as you're enjoying the process of working with your tank as it develops, then that's what it's all about. :smile:


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## HD Blazingwolf

Yes i actually have my eye on a 75g. I wanna have a cave in one with an undergound tunnel for plecos to enjoy


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## Complexity

Oh, I love the cave idea! Be sure to design it so you can clean it out every now and then since it will probably fill up with pleco poo being the lowest point in the tank. It would be cool if you could design the cave so part of it was up against the glass so you could see in. For some strange reason, fish don't seem to have a problem with the transparency of the glass and behave normally even though we can see them.


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## HD Blazingwolf

actually the design has been in my head for months. it will be shaped so that the way the substrate sits around it and the flow dynamics of the tank. water will flow directly through it and help keep it clean. it will be completely burried and unremovabled withou major susbtrate upending

actually. set up a camera and leave the room for a few hours and see how fish act. TOTALLY different than even if u were just sitting by the tank. the little internet personal cams do a good job of this.


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## Complexity

Okay, that's it. You absolutely MUST get this tank started! I can't wait to see this! Run, don't walk, and get a 75g tank right now. Don't come back home without one! :hihi:


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## HD Blazingwolf

I NEED A NEW ROOF!!! sooo bad

so i can't justify 1k worth of spending on a new tank when i need a 6300 dollar roof because mines caving in

the good news is. i got a guy with a 75 for sale for 50 bux.... so there's a big save. just got major priorities


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## HunterX

Complexity said:


> Of course, you know you're always welcome to post pics in my journal threads! I love seeing them! :smile:
> 
> And that canopy is simply gorgeous! One of the prettiest I have seen! I wish you were in my area so I could convince you to build one for me. You should be excited about it. It's really pretty!
> 
> Your plants are looking very good, too. Is that _hygrophila corymbosa 'compacta'_ on the left side, flanking the rocks? They are doing very well! Nice, lush specimens. What is the grassy plant just right of the middle? It's in the last picture, too. It looks like hairgrass, but it's taller. It's obviously happy in your tank, as well. In fact, all your plants look happy. For someone who's just recently started out in this hobby, you've certainly caught on quickly. Your tank is looking great!


Sorry it took so long to get back to you. Way too busy this time of the year. 

Thank you very much. You would be surprised how easy and inexpensive it was to build. It took my dad and me about 4 hours and 40$ If I was close to you we would do it for you in a heartbeat. He and I had a really good time building it!

I have read a bunch. My fiancé teases me because I'm constantly readying about the "planted tank"! She sure does like showing the tank off when friends and family come over though. LOL 

You are correct that is _hygrophila compacta._ For some reason the one of the right side of the rocks is growing larger and longer leaves then the one on the left side. I did get them from two different suppliers. Different genes I guess. 

The plant all the way to the right of the tank is a micro sword. I'm not as happy with it as I am the dwarf hairgrass. The micro sword uproots too easy. I have to keep planting it. The dwarf hairgrass has really exploded. I'm thinking about pulling the micro sword and planting dwarf hairgrass from the middle all the way to the right side. What do you think about that?


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## HD Blazingwolf

for the micro sword. cut all the roots except about 3/4 of an inch off. let it grow some new roots. that will help it stay in place


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## HunterX

Hey wolf. What do you think about planting dwarf hairgrass all the way from the middle to the right, thus replacing the micro sword. In my opinion, I think it would flow a little more by doing that. Curious what you think.


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## HunterX

LOL Shame on us. We have so hi-jacked Complexity's thread.


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## HD Blazingwolf

for a naturalist look. that would be nice, but don't remove the microsword, plant it behind the grass and more the grass more forward


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## HunterX

I'm afraid if I do that it would be too much work keeping the micro sword and dawrf hairgrass from becoming intermingled.


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## sphack

Complexity said:


> Can you believe that I actually reduced the CO2 in this tank? I was running it at a higher concentration. I had my pH controller set to 6.2, but upped it to 6.4 so I could have a little margin for error. But even at 6.2 the fish were fine.


What is the pH drop your controller is set at? I am able to run at a low pH but the drop checker is not changing. I'm running CO2 dropping my pH from 7.3 -> 6.1. What is the KH of your tank? How do you initially configure the CO2 amount?


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## HD Blazingwolf

even with a low KH that much ph change should change the drop checker a little

ur drop checker may not be exactly 4dkh. likely its closer to 5 dkh


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## sphack

Found the issue. My dKH solution that I bought from somebody on this forum was really 32 dKH! See
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=188779

Quick question. When you set up a drop checker solution before you put it into your tank, what color is it?


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## HD Blazingwolf

Blue. I add 2-3 drops of ph reagent to give it a deeper color. It changes the chemistry a little but not enough to matter since we are using eyeball measurements here


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