# GDA - do nothing..seriously?



## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I've read a few threads now that propose that I leave GDA alone for 3 to 4 weeks. Is this for real? So, how do I do that? Currently, I do a 50% weekly wc at which time I break down and clean the GDA off everything inside the tank and the walls. I also prune the excessive plant growth and vaccum the bottom.

First, let me make sure we are talking about the same thing. GDA is the green algae that grows on the glass and other surfaces (plastic tubes, etc) and can be easily removed with the magnetic scrapper or teflon scrubby pads.
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/GreenDustAlgae/IMG_0398.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/GreenDustAlgae/IMG_0396.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/GreenDustAlgae/IMG_0392.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii288/manwithnofish/GreenDustAlgae/IMG_0391.jpg

So according to the plan, I should continue all my normal cleaning and pruning along with my 50% wc, but don't scrape the glass or scrub the GDA off anything?

If this is true, why do I own a magnetic scrapper?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

I know that diatoms go away on their own, but not GDA. I don't doubt you read that, but I wouldn't believe it. I get some GDA in my 10 gallon tank on the glass and spray bar, I figure because the lighting is a little too bright for the amount of plants I'm growing. Try cutting back the photoperiod to 8 hours if you are using more currently, or raising the lights a couple inches and see if that helps. 

Also you might try upping phosphate levels. Doing that helped with my GSA problem, may help GDA too.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

That's how I managed to get rid of GDA, the algae shown in those photos. I allowed it to complete the lifecycle then did one major cleaning. I had it so badly that it would completely cover the glass surfaces overnight after having scraped it completely clean; the more that I scraped the worse it would become. It was worse than green water, UV nor diatom filtering would help after scraping. I resisted the 'wait it out' technique for a long time, but ultimately only that solved my problem. I do occasionally get dusty algae on the glass, but it's nothing like what I used to have.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Does it wipe off easily or do you have to scrape it?


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

First of all, you don't need to be vacuuming the substrate in a planted tank, so stop that. Yes GDA is the algae that, surprise surprise, looks like green dust, and clings to walls and surfaces. It is not to be confused with GSA which, surprise surprise, looks like green spots. For whatever reason, it generally runs its course over a few weeks, and you won't see it anymore.

As for why do you have an algae scraper... maybe because GDA isn't the only thing that grows on glass? And by the way, you can scrape your glass if you want, but experience dictates that the GSA will keep coming back again and again. Then, what happens is you get tired of seeing it coming back, so you give up and stop scraping it out of despair... then a few weeks later you notice it's gone! So yeah, don't delay the inevitable, just let it cycle itself out.

If it makes you feel any better, I have a new tank running that is going through the GSA cycle right now, and it definitely sucks, because it makes everything look messy. Just have patience, that's all.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> Does it wipe off easily or do you have to scrape it?


It wipes off real easy with Dobie pads or the magnetic scrubber.

The algae is very slimey to the feel...when I drain the tank and rub my fingers on it.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, then it's GDA. Lot's of folks confuse GDA and GSA. GSA will oftentimes start as a "dust" and then reveal the spots as it grows.



> Low CO2. Low nutrients. Quite common on new setups.



http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

The wait for 3 weeks thing works for some and not for others.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> Ok, then it's GDA. Lot's of folks confuse GDA and GSA. GSA will oftentimes start as a "dust" and then reveal the spots as it grows.


What confirmed this as positively GDA for you? Was it the pictures or the description about it being slimey? Or both? I want to be sure that I know the beast that defeats me or visa versa.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

GDA wipes of easily-pretty easily. GSA doesn't--it requires scrubbing or scraping.

Sorry I don't know that much about GDA.

What is your C02 setup?
Dosing regime?
Tank size?
Lights?
Photoperiod?


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## abcemorse (Jul 24, 2008)

The idea behind leaving GDA alone for 10 days -2 weeks is to let it complete its life cycle, THEN clean it off the glass. Don't just leave alone indefinitely. Let it be for 10-14 days, clean it off glass and other surfaces, then do a big water change. Tom Barr's site has a little better info on this too.


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## markopolo (Jun 2, 2008)

i used to have GDA on my glass and stuff then i got some olive nerite snails, the buggers cleaned it right off as well as some of the GSA i had and most of the diatoms.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

markopolo said:


> i used to have GDA on my glass and stuff then i got some olive nerite snails, the buggers cleaned it right off as well as some of the GSA i had and most of the diatoms.


Not familiar with that snail...is it the one that Clown Loaches love to eat...cause I got two big snail smacking loaches.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> GDA wipes of easily-pretty easily. GSA doesn't--it requires scrubbing or scraping.
> 
> Sorry I don't know that much about GDA.
> 
> ...


Wasn't really asking about my specific situation. Was questioning the general recommendation and if many have had success with this approach. I guess I'm a bit skeptical about "leaving algae alone" for 2 weeks. I'm deathly afraid of what it will look like if I do.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

It'll get very, very bad... but if you wait long enough it'll not come back after that final cleanup. This thread is moderately good reading on the topic.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

This article is a great reference. I used it and one morning, my GDA was completely gone! http://aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/2006/06/green-dust-algae-gda.html


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

^ And that final cleanup will provide plenty of yummy oto food as some of it inevitably finds its way down to the substrate. I just cleaned the GDA buildup from the last 3 weeks off my 10g, and all the shrimp and otos just went nuts over the scrapings.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

imeridian said:


> It'll get very, very bad... but if you wait long enough it'll not come back after that final cleanup. This thread is moderately good reading on the topic.


Great. This (thread) is precisely why I am giving serious consideration to getting out of this hobby. This thread isn't a prescription on how to solve my problem. It is two (probably world renoun) "experts" argueing in almost total and complete disagreement over the cause and treatment of this problem. I'm sorry but this is what I dislike about this hobby and the forums. I'm simply not interested in the upper intellectual debates on this or any other aspect of something that is suppose to be a "HOBBY"....not a freaking pHd disertation. I have neither the time, desire, or interest to make this my career.

Expert #1 says,


> Tom,
> He has three 150w MH basically sitting on that tank, and after one week the glass is solid green and you don't think the light has anything to do with it?
> Get realistic.


Expert #2 says, well too many things to quote them all, but the bottom line is this one.


> Now while I can do this 12x out 12X, other folks will not be able to even if I tell them everything, the likely hood they will get the parameters alone correct suggest 90-100% success is not likely. Too many variables.


 Translation, someone like me has 0% chance of success even I followed his precise directions.

How much more discouraging could this be? Sorry, I guess I let my frustrations out again.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

All I've ever gotten when I've had GDA and tried the cycle was an ugly tank I couldn't look at for several weeks. Manofmanyfish, I read through your post and don't see lighting amount or schedule. When I was recently trying to push my 125G to the limit, I had 3x150w DE metal halides on for 12 hours a day. Stuff grew like crazy - and GDA started on my glass (it grew fastest where the light was the brightest). 

To solve the problem, I cut back to 11, then 10, then 9 (I think that's where I am at now) hours/day and it basically stopped and hasn't come back since.

I don't follow the "lifecycle" logic at all - It makes no sense to me... As if _every single spore_ in the tank decides to says _simultaneously_, "OK gang, I'm Done... you won!". 

Right...

More likely by letting it grow and get so massive, the accumulating GDA takes whatever in the water is making it grow in the first place out and you're exporting that whatever it is when you wipe it off and remove it (filter). For me, letting it grow and get fugly on the glass never worked (and I looked at a gross tank for a month when I had my 55g - the wife was pissed cause it was in the Dining room and a great "show" for dinner every night)... IIRC, I solved it the same way finally on my 55 by cutting back the lighting period.

Oh - and don't get discouraged - ask a 100 people (And there are many more than that on tpt) a question and you're likely to get 100 different answers. No two people do things the same exact way here - but you'll find a lot of similarities between "styles". It takes time to develop your own - what you find on the web is a way of pointing you in the right direction.

- Jeff


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Well, what do you want? 

You've had people tell you that waiting out GDA works... but that doesn't seem to be good enough.

You were linked to a discussion on the topic, but it's too intellectual and debate oriented.

I've done it, it works, what more do you need? It seems the only way you'll be convinced is to see it for yourself and fortunately that is easy enough to do.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

Then skip the overly extensive posts and approach it as a hobby. I personally skip alot of them because despite the prodigious claims of 'scientific proof', there's never been any true journalistic evidence offered - it's still taking another 'hobbyist's' word.

With regards to GDA, I'd approach it like others have - if it bothers you that much and other methods haven't worked, try the next method despite what it may look like in your aquarium. From a practical standpoint - if you don't try it and continue what you've been doing, it will likely persist. If you do try it it will look probably not much worse than it already does.

This hobby can definitely be frustrating for sure, that's why it's probably not as popular as other aspects of the aquarium hobby. You'll need to have that frame of mind if you want to get through the rough parts....


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Sorry for you're troubles and I understand you're frustration.

I have nothing but respect for Tom, I admire and appreciate
him & what he has brought to this hobby.

I'm not seeing your tank specs?

Without light, it can not grow/ or grow as rapidly.
There are other variables involved, but light is a main issue.

Waiting it out may work, that is not my cup of tea however.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You can get rid of GDA with a very labor intensive method too, but I'm too lazy to use that. That method is where you do many big water changes, each after thoroughly wiping down the glass. It is the brute force method, so to speak.

The first time I ever had GDA was years ago in a big tank, when I knew nothing at all about growing aquatic plants. I did almost nothing to fight it, just gave up and wondered what I would do when I finally got rid of the tank. I was extremely delighted when it started going away, so then I wiped what was left off the glass, and thanked the aquatic plant goddesses. It didn't come back. If that tank had been in a nicely furnished living room, or right next to the dining room table, I would probably have just sold it and forgot it.

Many of us get enthusiastic and post long detailed comments about whatever our latest "discovery" is, others are not only enthusiastic, but willing to study the science behind the hobby, and post equally long detailed comments, but filled with technical stuff. Fortunately, none of us have to pass a test on this, so not reading those posts has no consequences.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Great. This (thread) is precisely why I am giving serious consideration to getting out of this hobby. . . . Translation, someone like me has 0% chance of success even I followed his precise directions.
> 
> How much more discouraging could this be? Sorry, I guess I let my frustrations out again.


Maybe you need to do what I do. Learn to live with algae in some aspects. I probably have a good spread of algae I will never get rid of....mostly GSA. But you know what? I don't care. I like to come home after a hard day at work and look at my plants growing and my fish happily swimming around the plants picking at the algae that is present. Set small goals for yourself and learn to accept there will always be a struggle with some aspects. For me, I struggle with fertilizers and CO2, but I still manage to tell myself "At least I can grow plants!" Don't get discouraged, it'll get better!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Anything remotely rewarding in life entails risk, effort, failure and successes. This also holds true for the planted tank hobby. The failures can be seen as challenges or learning opportunities or reasons to get out of the hobby. Algae is probably the single biggest factor in this hobby IMHO that causes many people to pack it in. Those who refuse to do so ultimately are able to persist and overcome the the algae menance to a greater extent. As the old adage goes, success breeds success but you have to be willing to be patient and treat failures as learning opportunities and challenges.

When I got into the planted tank hobby, my ultimate goal was to create a better home for my fish. I was not prepared to enter into a war with algae, but that happened and when it did I just about packed it in. I persisted and fought the algae and along the way discovered what to do when I get it and how best to prevent it. If I had packed it in I would never have known. Now, I know how to set up an algae free tank(excluding diatom algae, green dust algae, and green spot algae which are largely unavoidable but harmless).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

hooha said:


> With regards to GDA, I'd approach it like others have - if it bothers you that much and other methods haven't worked, try the next method despite what it may look like in your aquarium. From a practical standpoint - if you don't try it and continue what you've been doing, it will likely persist. If you do try it it will look probably not much worse than it already does.


Sage advice. :icon_smil

The bottom line to me is- SOMETHING is out of balance when we have algae issues, and it may not always be the same thing from tank to tank (even with the "same type" of algae). So it's always going to be a bit of trial and error.

Reducing lighting is always a good place to start, however.

I happen to be a big fan of the "wait it out" method, and I also make sure to stock lots of different species of algae eaters in each tank. This method works just fine for me and requires minimal effort on my end. :wink:


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Sorry Imeridian, I didn't mean it to be a personal attack against you. Thank you for the reply. I guess by now I should have known that half the people would say that it worked for them while the other half says it did not work for them. So there it is.

It would be nice if there were "Best Management Practices" for planted tanks, at least for those who agree on a particular procedure. There simply aren't enough sticky threads on all the issues and threads too often are discussions and debates that do not end with a consensus opinion of the group in the form of a "prescription" that can be followed. I realize that in this case, Tom did just that and rather than trying to follow it, I had to open this can of worms again.

Well, it's apparent that I've got to try something, so I'll try the "don't do anything plan" and see what happens. I'm guaranteed to wind up in the 50% group.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> Sorry Imeridian, I didn't mean it to be a personal attack against you. Thank you for the reply.


No worries, I did not take personal offense.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Sorry for you're troubles and I understand you're frustration.
> 
> I have nothing but respect for Tom, I admire and appreciate
> him & what he has brought to this hobby.
> ...


I realize that there are many who are extremely devoted to this hobby and are making enormous contributions to the benefit of many others. I understand that there those who have a passion or maybe even an obsession to understand this very complex hobby. I should be more appreciative of their willingness to share their knowledge. I was just frustrated that I can't understand some of the threads, because they simply are having discussions far beyond my experience level. At some point, I have to just survive the hobby before I can stay around for years and learn from people like yourself and Tom (and many others).

Now as for the specifics of my tank:
*Original objective*: 70 Gal. planted tank with community fish. – All items purchased starting in Feb. 2008.

*Aquarium*: 70 g. Oceanic glass, measures 36” wide, 18” deep (front to back), 25” ht.

*Substrate*: equal mixture of Flourite and Eco-Complete, approximately 4” deep. Lots of Trumpet snails

*Water*: well water. Water hardness kH ranges from 6 - 8 drops or 107.4 – 143.2. gH ranges from 12 – 14 drops or 214 – 250. pH normally runs from 7.2 to 7.6. Running lower now (6.4 to 6.8) with the pressurized CO2.

*Plants*: several varieties of fast growing plants for bright lights. I am successfully growing plants. Removing a fair amount of mass every week.

*Fish*: approximately 43 small (tetras, danios, rasbora, etc), includes two (2”) clown loaches and two larger (4”) fish (red tail shark and flying fox).

*Artifacts*: – one softball size rock and two pieces of wood.

*Light System*: Tek-Light system – (4) T5-HO 6K Midday 39 w bulbs purchased in February. Two separate light switches on separate timers (2 bulbs each). My latest configuration is that I burn all 4 bulbs from 8:00 am to 7:00 pm.

*Heater*: Azoo Titanium 300w heater

*Filter*: Two Fluval 405 canister filter. One connected to DIY CO2 reactor.

*Circulations*: HK-2 mounted on side in front of output from CO2 reactor.

*CO2 system*: 10 lb tank (source beverage quality), Victor single-stage regulator, Ideal needle valve, bubble counter, check valve, DIY CO2 reactor PVC. Running CO2 from 7:30 am to 6:30 pm. Measure by drop counter.

*Chemical Ferts*: Currently dosing 1/2 of recommended EI amounts (full amount was worse). Dosing (Mon.Wed.Fri) 3 times a week (1/8 tsp KH2PO4 - Mono Potassium Phosphate, and 3/8 tsp Potassium Nitrate 13.5-0-46.2). Dry ingredients are added to a cup of water and poured into the tank. Tuesday and Thursday adding 10ml Flourish Excel. This is followed by a 50% water change on Sunday w/35ml Flourish Excel after change. 

The ferts are from http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/Store.php. Plantex CSM+B – Not using this for now.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Very thorough, thank you.

One last question, Does the light fixture sit on the tank?

I'm guessing it does, which that and the length of your
photo period are your cause.

Raise your light up 6 or 7 inches, that is a powerful setup. 

I have a Tek 6/54w 48" over a 120P, if I want to induce
green dust, I just drop the fixture down about 2 or 3 inches
above the water and by weeks end tank is green.

I recommend hanging the T5/HO fixture at least 10"
if you burn all 4 bulbs. 8 hour photo period will help too.

This will give you a lot more wiggle room to enjoy the tank
and still grow some nice plants while at the same time growing
in experience.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Very thorough, thank you.
> 
> One last question, Does the light fixture sit on the tank?
> 
> ...


My addition to Craig's suggestions is if you can't adjust the hood right away, photoperiod can/should be addressed first - As was the issue in my case, I could not raise the hood. Going from 11/12 hours of light to 8/9 hours of light made a WORLD of difference. But that is a LOT of light...

My tank went from getting GDA-covered glass in 1-2 days, to a light dusting every 1-2 weeks, and the plants are still haulin butt. Going to trim a garbage-can full tonight or tomorrow night.

Good luck, and don't give up. I've been doing this for 10+ years - and still learn every time I participate on the forum (most of it's, "sh**, why wasn't I listening"). And I still kill plants and fish, and if I don't pay attention, growing algae for me comes naturally.

- Jeff


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

*Tek-Lights*

Tek-Light has a bracket mount that sits on top of the glass top. Bracket mounts sit on side. Don't know if you can make out the ruler, but the bulbs are approximately 4" from the glass top. So I should raise them up to 10" and reduce the photo period to 8 hours if I'm going to run all 4 bulbs. I've tried burning just 2 bulbs with height as it is now, but still had algae problems.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Unfortunately, that is a very powerful light fixture.
I use the same bulbs you do, as well.

I have mine hanging with the bulbs being 12" from tank rim.

You will need to raise it, as much of a pain as that may be.

Your dosing need to be good, as well as C02.

This is mine.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I can definitely raise the light fixture around 8 maybe 10 inches, but that's about it. What makes this so difficult is that I get recommendataion that are absolutely 180 degrees apart. A number of people have told me that I didn't have enough light (based on watts/gal, I guess). Then others have said that I probably had too much light. At any rate, I'm going to find out and hope I can turn this thing around.

Nice tank, Mine hasn't been that clear since it was new. What's the dimensions?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

My only suggestion at this point is to find a successful tanks of similar size and compare your systems to theirs. It has been quite helpful for me. 

Perhaps why the waiting method works for some and not others is indeed that the tank is otherwise balanced in the ones where the method works and in the others there is work yet to be done in regards to lighting, fertilization, etc. As always the answer is somewhere between the extremes.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

You definitely have enough light.

I understand the wading through forums and conflicting advice, I
believe you are about to discover the truth. :biggrin:

I guarantee you raise that light & shorten photo period things will
turn around.

Clean the tank up again, dose NPK, either Plantex, Flourish Comprehensive
or TPN, I noticed you weren't dosing any trace, you will need to.
Good flow with good C02, air at night, aerate the water.

Keep filter clean at least monthly, highlight tanks with all the dosing, feeding
fish, pruning, moving things around, the filter gets dirty fast, keep filter 
clean without killing the micro-organisms with either tank or RO water.

This will turn the tank around. 

If you have a diatom filter install it before cleaning the tank/glass, turn off
filter while you do this, if not then do the best you can and stay on top of
things, highlight makes the system very active, not much room for error,
raising the light will make it much easier on you and you're system.

It is a 48x18x18.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Clean the tank up again, dose NPK, either Plantex, Flourish Comprehensive or TPN, I noticed you weren't dosing any trace, you will need to. Good flow with good C02, air at night, aerate the water.


Don't know what TPN is... and I thought the Plantex was the trace nutrients? I don't do any aeration at present. Just been watching fish, which seem to be healthy...no sign of stress.



> Keep filter clean at least monthly, highlight tanks with all the dosing, feeding fish, pruning, moving things around, the filter gets dirty fast, keep filter clean without killing the micro-organisms with either tank or RO water.


Right now, I'm cleaning the filters every two weeks and they're always very dirty. I have well water (goes directly into tank) so I clean with that, I just watch the temperature.



> It is a 48x18x18


Your lights are 12 inches above rim and say 15 inches to bottom of tank (allowing 3" substrate). So you are 27 inches from bottom. I have a 25 inch tank (allowing 3" substrate) leaves 22" + 8 inches above rim, would put me at 30 inches from bottom. I think I'll try it there and then go up higher if needed. Some plants don't fill out (Cabomba) except near the top now.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

TPN is Tropica Plant Nutrition, all three of those, Plantex, Flourish
and TPN are your trace/mIcro elements.

As I stated a post above, in highlight tank, things happen fast, plants
during the day, consume C02 expel 02, at night they need air, also the
bacteria and micro-organisms in substrate and filter media, plus by
next viewing you have a very clean surface for open top viewing...

The filter does get dirty fast huh, good deal on keeping it clean.

Your right on with the math, my light is 27" from sub.

You have the idea now, raise your light and start growing some plants
while tweaking whatever it is that may need it.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

Manwithmanyfish - glad you're still at it. Part of the joy of this hobby is the ride to get to your destination! Wö£fëñxXx is so right. You have a lot of light. The TEK lights are really high powered. If people aren't familiar with them they won't understand. Maybe that's why some gave you other advice. Hang in there! You'll get it. A lot of this is trial and error for your tank for your water for your fish for your location. It all makes a difference.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

manofmanyfish said:


> It would be nice if there were "Best Management Practices" for planted tanks, at least for those who agree on a particular procedure. There simply aren't enough sticky threads on all the issues and threads too often are discussions and debates that do not end with a consensus opinion of the group in the form of a "prescription" that can be followed. I realize that in this case, Tom did just that and rather than trying to follow it, I had to open this can of worms again.
> 
> Well, it's apparent that I've got to try something, so I'll try the "don't do anything plan" and see what happens. I'm guaranteed to wind up in the 50% group.


opinions are like ------- everyone has one and they all stink :red_mouth

The problem with any hobby that is worthwhile (imo) is that there are many variables that can interplay and cause the same outcome - both postive and negative - despite different situations, and can cause different outcomes - both positive and negative - with similar situations.

to quote another thread - patience and persistence are key....


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

Raising it may not be an option if you have to use the tek legs.
Try the photo period adjustment till you find that sweet spot.

As stated you tried running 2 bulbs. But how ling did you stick with the schedule once you did?

I'd love to have the capabilities to have a mid day peak. Would be awesome. But alas only two bulbs and one ballast in my fixture.


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## adamsaulnier (Oct 22, 2008)

Church said:


> First of all, you don't need to be vacuuming the substrate in a planted tank, so stop that.


I don't mean to hijack this thread, but this piece of information caught my eye.

How come you shouldn't vacuum the substrate in a planted tank? I find that with a 10 gallon tank (5 zebra danios, 2 white skirt tetras and a pleco) the amount of brown mulm at the bottom of the tank becomes unsightly after a week of not being cleaned up. I can understand that this stuff breaks down into ammonia and nutrients for the plants, but can too much of it be a problem?

Personally I know how much of a problem it is to vacuum the stuff off the bottom with all the stems around it, so if what you're saying is true it'll make my job a lot easier.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I think you must be overfeeding too much then. I don't claim to be an expert, so maybe someone else can chime in here, but I've never vacuumed my planted tanks' substrates unless I was dealing with a horrible clado algae outbreak, or parasites. If you are having so much mulm that it is unsightly, I think there are other factors that need your attention.

Also, on a related note, I don't think it's bad to "wave" the gravel vac down towards the substrate to get some bigger leaves and things like that, but if you're shoving it down into the substrate like one typically does to vacuum the gravel, I think you are doing a disservice to your tank's health.

Just my opinion.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

Church said:


> [snip] ...but I've never vacuumed my planted tanks' substrates unless I was dealing with a horrible clado algae outbreak, or parasites. If you are having so much mulm that it is unsightly, I think there are other factors that need your attention.
> 
> Also, on a related note, I don't think it's bad to "wave" the gravel vac down towards the substrate to get some bigger leaves and things like that, but if you're shoving it down into the substrate like one typically does to vacuum the gravel, I think you are doing a disservice to your tank's health.
> 
> Just my opinion.


Exactly. 

Vacuuming substrate is a personal preference, IMHO (I have an xxxxxxx too  ). There's nothing (again, IMHO) wrong with taking a little mulm out of the top inch or so. Also, this is substrate dependent - with more care being provided in dual/mixed substrates.

The point here is, there really isn't anything wrong with cleaning a little off the top - you're not losing anything and removing a little mulm that's near the water column doesn't hurt (and again, IMHO, helps by keeping the crap out of or near the water column). I like roling my sand over a couple of times a month as it keeps it looking fresh.

IIRC, even Barr recommends a good _deep_ cleaning about once a year...

Once a tank is well established, short of removing all the substrate and cleaning it in the sink, you won't damage the bio-bed.

- Jeff


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

kzr750r1 said:


> Raising it may not be an option if you have to use the tek legs.
> Try the photo period adjustment till you find that sweet spot.
> 
> As stated you tried running 2 bulbs. But how ling did you stick with the schedule once you did?
> ...


I ran only 2 bulbs for several months (waiting to get CO2 system set up). Had algae issues then. Then ran 2 bulbs 12 hours with other 2 bulbs burning 3 hours mid day. Had algae issues then. Started cranking CO2 and all 4 bulbs and ferts. Still have algae. I think I have had every kind of algae there is. I seem to make some headway...everything gets better and then it slides back downhill. My Tek-Light has an adjustable pedistal so I can raise the lights above the glass top 8 - 10 inches, but I have a really deep tank so that makes it a challenge to get enough light down to the bottom to grow plants. That's why I had the lights sitting as low as they could go. I think I'm on to something different. I'm going to discover a new species of algae at this pace.

On the vacuum issue. I don't clean the substrate / gravel. I swoosh the wand near the bottom to lift the stuff that needs to be sucked out.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I run only 108 watts of T5HO over my 90gal and have algae issues if I run over 8 hrs/day. And that's with a Solar, not a Tek...

I agree- you need to lower your lighting. Raise up the fixture, run fewer bulbs, and/or dramatically shorten your photoperiod.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I run only 108 watts of T5HO over my 90gal and have algae issues if I run over 8 hrs/day. And that's with a Solar, not a Tek...
> 
> I agree- you need to lower your lighting. Raise up the fixture, run fewer bulbs, and/or dramatically shorten your photoperiod.


What's the dimensions on your tank and how high above the glass top / rim are your lights?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Hey Manofmanyfish, what's the update on your tank? I liked your tidey bowl pictures. Can we get some updated pics?


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

This is about day 13 of my "Do Nothing" plan. How long do I do nothing. Am I suppose to do anything (because that would be against the plan). This doesn't just disappears by itself. So what's my "sign" that I stop doing nothing?


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> Hey Manofmanyfish, what's the update on your tank? I liked your tidey bowl pictures. Can we get some updated pics?


Sewingalot...if you're sending replies at 2:49 in the morning...you need to try my other (and most favorite) hobby.....sleeping.:drool:


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

manofmanyfish said:


> I ran only 2 bulbs for several months (waiting to get CO2 system set up). Had algae issues then. Then ran 2 bulbs 12 hours with other 2 bulbs burning 3 hours mid day. Had algae issues then. Started cranking CO2 and all 4 bulbs and ferts. Still have algae. I think I have had every kind of algae there is. I seem to make some headway...everything gets better and then it slides back downhill. My Tek-Light has an adjustable pedistal so I can raise the lights above the glass top 8 - 10 inches, but I have a really deep tank so that makes it a challenge to get enough light down to the bottom to grow plants. That's why I had the lights sitting as low as they could go. I think I'm on to something different. I'm going to discover a new species of algae at this pace.
> 
> On the vacuum issue. I don't clean the substrate / gravel. I swoosh the wand near the bottom to lift the stuff that needs to be sucked out.


Try an 8 or 9 hour schedule for a few weeks with only a 3 hour max mid day spike. If you do begin to win the battle and this algae will eventually turn brown and coverage will get spotty. The ambient light of the room can be a factor in the photoperiod.

A sweet spot will be found with all of the factors involved.

Looking at the pictures the plants look happy.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> What's the dimensions on your tank and how high above the glass top / rim are your lights?


Sorry I just now saw this question;

I have a standard 90gal; 48L x 18D x 25H. The lights are mounted on legs about 2" above the rim of the tank. Which puts them 3-5" from the surface of the water depending on how long it's been since I topped off the tank.

From what I can see of the plants behind the green glass they're looking pretty healthy. Is the algae mostly on the glass, not so much coating the plant leaves?

If that's the case, I'd get some Otocinclus cats (5 or 6) or Nerite snails and that algae will probably be gone in a matter of days. Then you'll just need to be sure to feed the cats/snails lots of veggie foods to keep them alive.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

lauraleellbp said:


> If that's the case, I'd get some Otocinclus cats (5 or 6) or Nerite snails and that algae will probably be gone in a matter of days. Then you'll just need to be sure to feed the cats/snails lots of veggie foods to keep them alive.


A good ground crew never hurts.  Good point feeding them long term.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Sorry I just now saw this question;
> 
> I have a standard 90gal; 48L x 18D x 25H. The lights are mounted on legs about 2" above the rim of the tank. Which puts them 3-5" from the surface of the water depending on how long it's been since I topped off the tank.
> 
> If that's the case, I'd get some Otocinclus cats (5 or 6) or Nerite snails and that algae will probably be gone in a matter of days. Then you'll just need to be sure to feed the cats/snails lots of veggie foods to keep them alive.


I have several otos and they don't have any impact on the algae and the Trumphet snails are about as useless, as you can see from the pics.

My tank dimensions are the same as yours, except your tank is 48 and mine is 36. I just raised my lights significantly higher, but your running less watts...interesting.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I just read the thread "Algae on Glass" (or something like that) which is exactly the same discussion as this. But nowhere did I see where all the issues were addressed or questions cleared up. With the exception of leaving the glass alone, everyone seemed to have done different things regarding the rest.

During this "Wait..Wait...don't do that" strategy...
1. Dosing EI....continue...continue but reduce....don't continue....?
2. Water changes.....do them...don't do them?
3. Filters....leave them alone...or do the routine cleaning?
4. Pruning....prune them...don't prune them?
5. Special "I win at the end" clean up procedures? Some bleached their wood, some did this while others did that.

Most concerned at Hoppy's recommendation not to do w/c...(but he has a system that constantly changes his water)...Nitrates are going to go through the roof?


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

During my 'wait it out' process I...
1. dosed as usual
2. water changed as usual
3. no filter cleaning was scheduled during the period
4. tricky, I don't think I trimmed, but didn't have out of control growth either due to the algae covering the plants anyway
5. scraped with a diatom filter & UVS running and then did a 50% water change. I didn't do anything else exceptional. 

You've waited long enough when the green dust start to slough off in a more gooey looking sheet.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

My god, I don't see how you stand it, I would be cranky and ill too from having
a box of that in the house...
Get some carrots and potatoes and you will be set.


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## taekwondodo (Apr 16, 2006)

I seriously believe without lighting adjustment (duration 1st, intensity second), you will be severely disappointed in the next few weeks.

JMHO.

- Jeff


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

taekwondodo said:


> I seriously believe without lighting adjustment (duration 1st, intensity second), you will be severely disappointed in the next few weeks.
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> - Jeff


Huh..I'm already serverely disappointed in the next few weeks.

Serveral of the believers said that loads of light excellerated the process / cycle. I've adjusted both timers (all 4 bulbs) to turn on at 9:00 am and turn off at 5:00 pm...8 hours of light while I'm at work. I'll never get to see my fish or my plants.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Sewingalot...if you're sending replies at 2:49 in the morning...you need to try my other (and most favorite) hobby.....sleeping.:drool:


Insomnia- I hate it! I was up a total of 27 hours at that point. I finally feel asleep drooling on the laptop around 5:00 in the morning. 

Back to your tank, it looks like it is turning to the "jelly phase." That's a good sign, and your plants look extremely healthy. I say it is on its way out within a week or two. It actually wrinkled up and fell off like sunburned skin peels. It was then I lowered the tank to 50% and cleaned the glass really well with wet paper towels and dried it before refilling the tank. So far, I haven't seen it again, and it has been going on three weeks for me. 

If you want to feel sorry for me, I am dealing with green water right now in one of my tanks.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

> I've adjusted both timers (all 4 bulbs) to turn on at 9:00 am and turn off at 5:00 pm...8 hours of light while I'm at work. I'll never get to see my fish or my plants


I have mine set to come on at 3PM off at 11PM, aerate while I'm away.
Gives me time to view/tinker with my aquarium while I have light.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> ... aerate while I'm away...


Curious, what do you aerate with? Airstone...


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

I raise my pipe to break the surface for a good churning,
I like this much better than air stone's.

The suction cup to the pipe is on the outside, so it only takes 
a second to raise or lower, I do this daily.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

End of 2 weeks of "Do Nothing" strategy. Measured water params to see if I should do the water change or not. Here's what they were. pH 6.8, kH 214 (12 drops), gH 304 (17 drops), Nitrates 30 ppm, Phosphates 10 ppm, Amnonia 0, Nitrites 0, Decided to do a 50% w/c without disturbing or cleaning anything.

Edit update - pH 6.8 and kH 214 = 57 ppm CO2 (according to table), but I'm going by my drop checker...:icon_eek:

2 hours after w/c...recheck of parameters. pH still 6.8, Nitrates drops to 10 ppm, Phosphate drops to 3 ppm, and kH drops 1 degree to 11 drops.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Wow. Your Nitrates are lower than mine. I can't get them to budge below 40 ppm. Good idea to do the water change. I continued to do all the normal maintenance as well. Not touching the GDA nearly drove me crazy, though.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

End of week three of "Do Nothing" strategy. Decided to do a 50% wc with no cleaning of tank, filter, and no pruning. Going to let it go another week. GDA doesn't look like the description I've been reading about.:icon_cry:


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Thanks for the update..

If you have not reduced light intensity, I don't see it getting better.
You have thick skin... Haha


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

On Jan. 4th, I raised the light fixture to something like 8" above glass.
On Jan. 10th, I changed lights from 7:00 am - 7:00 pm to 9:00 am - 5:00 pm

On Jan. 12th, I changed my fert regime. Now I dose 3/8 tsp KNO3 + 2/8 tsp KH2PO4, on Mon. Wed. & Fri. Still 10 ml Flourish on Tues. & Thurs.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Could not take it any longer!!! Do Nothing Plan lasted about 4 weeks.
Cleaned tank and one filter today. I remain doubtful. We'll see if the GDA returns.:flick:


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Keep us informed, I would like to know the outcome. I am amazed at how patient you were.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You did need to remove what was there- algae is tough stuff and won't just go away unless it's removed, killed, or eaten.

The question is- is it still spreading?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I really dont understand this method. Algea is an oppertunistic spore that will grow if the conditions are right. 

Higher light levels + longer photoperiod = GSA/GDA.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The life cycle method arises from this particular algae being motile, if you scrape it off it'll just swim back and re-attach. If you allow it to progress to the non-motile life stage, when you scrape it off you'll actually be able to remove it.

Further reading.

As with any algae treatment method, if you haven't corrected the conditions leading to the outbreak it will likely return.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> I really dont understand this method. Algea is an oppertunistic spore that will grow if the conditions are right.
> 
> Higher light levels + longer photoperiod = GSA/GDA.


I think it's based on the idea that over time the nutrient supply will be exhausted... I just don't know that this will happen in a tank where ferts are dosed.

Also, in the interests of viewing your tank, why don't you try a divided photoperiod? 4 hours in the morning (while you're home), off during the after noon, on again for 4 hours in the evening before you go to bed...


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> You did need to remove what was there- algae is tough stuff and won't just go away unless it's removed, killed, or eaten.
> 
> The question is- is it still spreading?


Remove it! How? I can't drain the entire tank. When I clean the walls under water, it spreads, floats, whatever. In fact, I scrubbed most of it off with a dobie pad with the tank mostly full, then did about a 75% water change to remove as much of the spored water as I could. It isn't possible to "retreave" every spore.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Of the 5 tanks at my house, 2 got it, the other 3 never have.
Same sediment, same filters, same lights, same everything including nutrients.

I've never found a way to induce it yet. Still I don't know. I know what it is, how it grows, what it looks like, life history, but not why it appears. I'd doubt anyone that claims they know why it grows, because it's far from something rather obvious. 

Seems like it comes in on other plants etc, and in some tanks, it will do okay and bloom. Perhaps filtering capacity, bacteria/cycling relationship etc. 

That's the only area I can see.

BTW, every tank no longer has it and it's never returned either, even if I messed with and changes the tank a lot etc, changed the filter etc.
So even that hypothesis seems to have issues.

You can do a large water change, wipe off most and then rinse the rag etc, then post filter with a large UV/Diatom, mechanical filter etc. The other thing is to do a 3 day blackout(covered) after this and wipe the tank down again and do the water change after also. Cycles of leaving it alone, blackout + removal can knock it back, you can also reduce the light and point the bulbs away from the glass.

One guy added an algae scrub pad around the modified lip of a gravel vacuum to scrub and remove immediately. Seemed to work pretty as I recall, he made a square flat surface, much like a mop with a scotch brite scrub pad and went at it every few days.

Some add Excel(mnever found it did much).
Wait+ good plant growth seemed to be the key for most.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Of the 5 tanks at my house, 2 got it, the other 3 never have. Same sediment, same filters, same lights, same everything including nutrients.


That actully make me feel better for some reason. Without doing or knowing anything, I've got a 60% chance of not having it. Oh wait, I'm in the 40% group. 



plantbrain said:


> I've never found a way to induce it yet. Still I don't know. I know what it is, how it grows, what it looks like, life history, but not why it appears. I'd doubt anyone that claims they know why it grows, because it's far from something rather obvious.


That means I have a snowballs chance in you know where to ever understanding what I'm doing.



plantbrain said:


> The other thing is to do a 3 day blackout(covered) after this and wipe the tank down again and do the water change after also. Cycles of leaving it alone, blackout + removal can knock it back, you can also reduce the light and point the bulbs away from the glass.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Just curious about the 3 day blackout, I did that last weekend with a bottle of Tequila. When I woke up, it was still there. 

Actually besides wearing my pants backwards for a week, this is about the only thing I haven't tried. 

Does the 3 day blackout not harm the fish or the plants?

Keep Hope Alive...and Algae gone.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

What got rid of it for me was 50% water changes every other day for a week along with a daily wipe down and daily DE filtering for that week. I think the DE filter helped the most. First day the filter was pea green. The following day there was much less algae in the filter and so on for each subsequent day. Of course this all might have been coincidence and it just happened to be dying off on its own.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Since GDA spores are "zoospores", free swimming spores that wander around in the water until they find a well lighted, smooth, shiny surface somewhere, where they can raise a family, the DE filter has a good chance of helping a lot. When you wipe down the glass, you release spores to swim around, and the DE filter might be fine enough to capture them. A UV filter could also help. But, I don't think anyone has found that filtering with anything will get rid of GDA, it just reduces the amount of it, making it easier to wipe off the next time. Of course the more times you do this with only short times between doing it, the more of the GDA you get rid of. I'm not sure if that finally discourages the surviving zoospores and makes them decide to hibernate, or what, but I know it eventually leaves and doesn't come back.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I think I mentioned it already, but I had tried diatom & UV. I didn't do daily diatom filtering though, as far as I can recall, so perhaps I allowed it to grow too much between scraping and filtering for that method to be effective on its own.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Jeff5614 said:


> What got rid of it for me was 50% water changes every other day for a week along with a daily wipe down and daily DE filtering for that week. I think the DE filter helped the most.


What's a DE Filter?



Hoppy said:


> A UV filter could also help. But, I don't think anyone has found that filtering with anything will get rid of GDA, it just reduces the amount of it, making it easier to wipe off the next time.


I don't have a UV filter either. I'm not going to purchase any more stuff to win this battle....if the "don't do anything" approach fails, well I might just start over without CO2 and high lights.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

DE Filter = Diatomaceous Earth Filter = Diatom Filter


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

There is another cheap method, but one that is an awful lot of work. You can drain out half or more of the water, wipe down the glass thoroughly, refill the tank, and again drain out half of it and refill it. Repeat this every day or two for 3 or 4 times, and sometimes that can get rid of it. If you first do the "wait 2 weeks and leave it alone" method first, followed by the above you have probably the best chance of success.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

GDA is back....Do Nothing Approach Did Nothing For Me.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I'm convinced that there are multiple species of GDA. When I used to get it so bad, it grew rapidly, and the "do nothing" approach worked if repeated enough times. What I get now is much slower growing, never seems to fully cover the glass, and I can't imagine it ever reaching the stage where it starts to drop off by itself. I do have lower light intensity than I used to, so that may be the only difference. In any case, it is easier to live with the slower growing stuff - I just need to wipe or scrape it off every 2 weeks or so.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> I'm convinced that there are multiple species of GDA. When I used to get it so bad, it grew rapidly, and the "do nothing" approach worked if repeated enough times. What I get now is much slower growing, never seems to fully cover the glass, and I can't imagine it ever reaching the stage where it starts to drop off by itself. I do have lower light intensity than I used to, so that may be the only difference. In any case, it is easier to live with the slower growing stuff - I just need to wipe or scrape it off every 2 weeks or so.


If you're suggesting that I surrender, I'm there. :icon_cry:

I have a very low light 29 gal tank (single 20w bulb) that never gets algae and I'm thinking anubius, crypts, etc are looking better all the time.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

manofmanyfish said:


> If you're suggesting that I surrender, I'm there. :icon_cry:
> 
> I have a very low light 29 gal tank (single 20w bulb) that never gets algae and I'm thinking anubius, crypts, etc are looking better all the time.


Guess why I use only a 55 watt light on a 45 gallon tank, with the light 6 inches above the tank, and mostly crypts, anubias and Java ferns? I sleep better now:redface:


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I'm sorry that the waiting method didn't work for you. :icon_conf


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Last attempt. I covered the tank, BLACK OUT.....turned off CO2, and lights of course. I guess I won't be able to feed the fish for a few days. I hope I don't take the cover off Saturday morning and find all my fish dead. If this doesn't work, I'm throwing in the towel on hightech...


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

It will never go away. If yo have high/med high light and a phot period over 7 hours it will always show up.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

That's what I have come to believe. Although, I've got another thread "Truth about GDA" with a couple of very experienced hobbiest, who say it's a piece of cake. 100% solveable everytime. I have no idea what the truth is, but in my book, if you claim to be able to "cure" GDA with a prescription, then it should work for everyone all the time. Good science is built on repeatable and reproductable results. That's not to slight anyone. As I have pointed out...a multitude of folks in the medical community are dedicated to the cure of cancer and certainly beyond "knowledgable" about it, but they can't cure it all the time....it truely remains an unsolved puzzle....Maybe GDA is the same for us.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Black Out over, all fish survived....we'll see how long that last.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

What's the result of the GDA? Is it still there?


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

It came back just as bad or worse after the 4 weeks of neglect. I put a box over it for 3 days this week. It appears that to have helped, but I'll give it a few days to see what comes back. I fully expect it to come back. I believe that what is causing it is a very fine imbalence of the light-co2-ferts combo. Temporary changes don't seem to make much sense to me. We'll see.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

What are your tank specs?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Just one last suggestion from me. I really was having a big problem with GSA and I found a cure. I reduced my Nitrates to keep it below 20 ppm and Increased my phosphates by 1.5 times my usual PPS-Pro Solution after dropping the light in the tank one hour still didn't get rid of it. Not only is my GSA gone, so is the small amount of BBA I had and GDA. You can actually see how much clearer my tank is here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/782755-post62.html.

Let me know how it goes. I think if you get looking, you will eventually find a permanent solution.


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## o snap its eric (Jan 12, 2004)

arent GDA from light intensity? I didn't have a problem with GDA until i actually raised my T5HO 2" higher than before. I guess it broaden the uniform and it's hitting the glass. My 2 oto are trying to eat as much as they can yet their belly doesn't look fat though.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

o snap its eric said:


> arent GDA from light intensity? I didn't have a problem with GDA until i actually raised my T5HO 2" higher than before. I guess it broaden the uniform and it's hitting the glass.


That's interesting. I believe there is something too this because it seems mine did get worse also. It's like, by moving it higher, I decreased the intensity, but I broadened the area under the light to include more glass or at least the angle was different. Honestly, I have no clue....and I haven't found anyone with definitive data that would make me believe anyone else knows. Scientific data simply hasn't been presented....so it's still just one big experiment...with a lot of unsubstantiated claims


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

manofmanyfish said:


> It came back just as bad or worse after the 4 weeks of neglect. I put a box over it for 3 days this week. It appears that to have helped, but I'll give it a few days to see what comes back. I fully expect it to come back. I believe that what is causing it is a very fine imbalence of the light-co2-ferts combo. Temporary changes don't seem to make much sense to me. We'll see.


It cannot be a very fine balance of light/CO2 or ferts, I'm all over, but do not limit CO2.

Even when I have limited CO2 due to clogged filters and a mazzei, plants just did not do well etc. I never got it again.


I also never got it in 3 of 5 tanks, all have the same light(I measured them with a PAR meter), bulbs, CO2 diffusion method/s, dosing, water change routines.

Fish loading was different. Filters where different. 
One tank had a canister, the other had a wet/dry.

Perhaps poor CO2 caused the initial bloom, then it's there to stay for awhile.
But I know it's not due to high or low light, nutrients, water changes etc or KH. I cannot rule out some fine tuning with CO2, but I had issues, we all have, fine tuning that from time to time, but no GDA.

Inoculation of a tank also never worked(tried 8 times, never did take this last time, but did in only 1 of 3 tanks in 2002). CO2 got bumped up and the plant biomass filled it and the alga went away after about 3 weeks.

I cannot say what causes it, but I also seem to be able to get rid of it and keep it away:thumbsup:

Quite a few other folks have not touched it for a few weeks, then cleaned it good etc, large water change etc and no longer have it also.

I've done this a few times now.

Rather than thinking everyone else is crazy, take a look at what you are doing more carefully, see if are overlooking something, try several water changes back to back, 2x a day, UV, micro filtration, you can get really aggressive if you chose.

You can also point the light away from the glass, put blinders on the hood etc, Aluminum foil etc.

You have many options.
Add some more plants, add a bit more CO2 and surface movement etc.
Clean filter after you clean the alga etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

GDA is back....3 day black out did not help. I have noticed that the GDA only appears on the glass from the low water mark of my last water change. I didn't clean the glass. It only appears from that mark and down.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You might see Wasserpet's post also.
Looking back, he added a dimmer bulb and it "went away".
I've tweaked the CO2 a bit on the two tanks that got it and it also never came back, plants started growing better etc also.

Folks with lower light seem to rarely have GDA issues also.

This is well correlated with Wasserpets and my observations as well, a subtle tweak in the CO2 helped.

By using less light, you reduce the CO2 demand, so there's plenty with less light, the CO2 target is easier to hit. I ended up raising the light as well because I knew it would reduce CO2 demand and make things easier.

You might try this approach as well.
I've never seen a blackout work for this alga.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> Rather than thinking everyone else is crazy, take a look at what you are doing more carefully, see if are overlooking something, try several water changes back to back, 2x a day, UV, micro filtration, you can get really aggressive if you chose.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I prefer to think that everyone else is crazy...it's works 100% of the time for at least 50% of the people.

Ok...Aggressive it is. Not sure how you execute a "Do Nothing Plan" aggressively, but here's the latest attempt. I drained the tank down to 25%, wiped the glass squeeky clean, cleaned all spouts, removed algae infected leaf parts and other objects. Cleaned both filters, but did not change media (except one basket with water polishing pads). Refilled the tank...then did a 50% water change immediately (before refilling the filters). Then refilled the tank and turned everything back on. AND...AND...I cut light period for 2 of the bulbs back to 11:00 am to 3:00 pm. The other set of 2 bulbs are 9:00 am to 5:00 pm....I never get to see my fish or my tank except on weekends. 

I love this hobby.

Ok yes, I didn't find Wasser's post...but where this is heading is ...4 T5-HOs are too much light for a 70 gal. fw tank?


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> Ok...Aggressive it is. Not sure how you execute a "Do Nothing Plan" aggressively, but here's the latest attempt.
> Ok yes, I didn't find Wasser's post...but where this is heading is ...4 T5-HOs are too much light for a 70 gal. fw tank?


He wasn't advocating doing nothing. He told you to clean the tank, get a diatom filter, uv, whatever you can think of. 

I let my 10 gallon tank go for one month, and left the glass alone. The GSA flourished, and after one horrible looking month, I cleaned it all off. I emptied about 80% of the water after scraping the glass with a razor blade. I refilled the tank, and emptied about 80% again. Then I refilled, added 15ml of Excel, and cut the light period back to 7 hours. I also raised the lights up about 1-2 inches.

After one month, still no algae on the glass to speak of. For me, I have been able to successfully eliminate GSA now in two tanks, by simply cutting back on the length of time the light is on, and on the intensity.

If you don't get to see the lights on your tank when you're home in the afternoons after work, just move the whole period back. :redface:

For me, I get home most days around 5 pm, so the lights are on from 3pm to 10 pm. If you get home later, just move the schedule back more. Pretty simple stuff. Just lighten up, try to enjoy the hobby even if you do have some algae. The more you experiment and learn, the better your tanks will look as a result.


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## o snap its eric (Jan 12, 2004)

i dont mind some GDA, my ottos can eat then.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

eyebeatbadgers said:


> He wasn't advocating doing nothing. He told you to clean the tank, get a diatom filter, uv, whatever you can think of.
> 
> After one month, still no algae on the glass to speak of. For me, I have been able to successfully eliminate GSA now in two tanks, by simply cutting back on the length of time the light is on, and on the intensity.


Sorry this WAS about the concept of leaving GDA (not GSA) alone for 3 to 4 weeks and NOT cleaning it...hence the "Do Nothing Strategy". In this case, I'm into the 10th week and way beyond the do nothing part. I'm just not going to buy a diatom filter or a uv whatever....it's just not an acceptable solution for me to stay in this hobby. I'll get rid of the big lights, all the ferts and the CO2 and try El Natural. Going to see if I can defeat this..if not, I'll convert over this spring or summer. If that doesn't work, I'll give up the plants and go with artifical stuff and just focus on the fish, with low lights and no more ferts or CO2.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Here's an odd twist....My CO2 ran out during the week sometime...and the GDA is gone.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Wow, that is an odd twist for sure. Has it come back yet?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> You might see Wasserpet's post also.
> Looking back, he added a dimmer bulb and it "went away".
> I've tweaked the CO2 a bit on the two tanks that got it and it also never came back, plants started growing better etc also.
> 
> ...


I first encountered Green Dust Algae when I set up my 40 gallon. In addition to reducing light intensity and photoperiod, I increased the frequency of water changes, and also dosed Seachem Excel at double the dosage. The Green Dust Algae disappeared after about a month on its own. It did not get worse and hit full force before falling off in sheets as others have observed. The tank has been set up for a year and a half to date and the green dust algae has not returned.

Green Dust Algae also made an appearance in my 5 Gallon Low Tech Tank, but this coincided when I replaced the bulb in the tank canopy from a 13 watt 6500 K compact fluorescent to a 15 watt 6500 K compact fluorescent. No change in photoperiod Again, as soon as I changed the bulb back over to 13 watts, it receded and disappeared. It has been about 3 months since that occurence and green dust algae has not returned. 

Most recently Green Dust Algae has plagued my 5 gallon low tech Hex tank. I replaced the bulb from a 14 watt 6400 compact fluorescent to a 10 watt 6500K compact fluorescent bulb. Again, no change to the photoperiod. It has been about 2 weeks since I replaced that bulb and I am noticing something similar to what you would see on a car windshied on a cold morning. That is the way a windshield gets fogged and then as soon as you turn up the heat, clear patches begin to form and slowly expand out. The disappearance of the Green Dust Algae in this tank is proceeding at a slower rate than what I have seen in my other tanks, but there is already a 40% reduction/disappearance.

FWIW, these are only my observations for 3 different tanks. No other variables were changed that could possibly account for this anomaly. There was no change in ferts doses(types/amounts), there was no change in fish stocking levels, no increase or decrease in plant density, no change in frequency of water changes, no other chemicals added to the water, etc., I am not necessarily suggesting that it is the be all end all fix for Green Dust Algae. Ongoing testing by others is needed to independently confirm these findings.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

I actually think I see it coming back....

If this is soooo easy, why is it so difficult for people to tell me how to solve the problem...remember the key word is soooo easy!!!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Cut your light to one bulb. Problem solved. Your plants will die but you wont have GDA. If I have said it one I have said it 1000 times. High light tanks have GDA, I dont know why it is just what happens. Live with it, cut your light, or stop complaning.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

bsmith782 said:


> Cut your light to one bulb. Problem solved. Your plants will die but you wont have GDA. If I have said it one I have said it 1000 times. High light tanks have GDA, I dont know why it is just what happens. Live with it, cut your light, or stop complaning.


I think I would express that a bit differently.:confused1: From my experience, GDA still shows up with lower light intensity, but it does so very lightly and slowly, so weekly or every other week wipe downs of the glass handles it very well. Actually, I find it works best to scrape it off, and it doesn't take nearly the effort that Green Spot Algae takes.

High light makes both plants and algae grow much faster, so GDA becomes a royal nuisance if the light is too high. However, in my experience, with the high light GDA, the leave-it-alone-for-3-weeks method has a good chance of working when repeated a couple of times. But, with my current low light the GDA never seems to reach the mature stage, even after a month, so I just live with the mild nuisance it causes. When I can easily see it on the glass, I "schedule" a scraping session. Otherwise I ignore it.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> I think I would express that a bit differently.:confused1: From my experience, GDA still shows up with lower light intensity, but it does so very lightly and slowly, so weekly or every other week wipe downs of the glass handles it very well. Actually, I find it works best to scrape it off, and it doesn't take nearly the effort that Green Spot Algae takes.
> 
> High light makes both plants and algae grow much faster, so GDA becomes a royal nuisance if the light is too high. However, in my experience, with the high light GDA, the leave-it-alone-for-3-weeks method has a good chance of working when repeated a couple of times. But, with my current low light the GDA never seems to reach the mature stage, even after a month, so I just live with the mild nuisance it causes. When I can easily see it on the glass, I "schedule" a scraping session. Otherwise I ignore it.


That may true and it is a good strategy if you have a glass tank, but if you happen to have an acrylic tank, scraping the GDA will seriously scratch up your tank walls. In my 40 gallon high tech tank with pressurized c02, it has yet to make a reappearance after more than a year. Part of the strategy to getting rid of it was reduced lighting. Even after I bumped the photoperiod back up and lowered the lights back down, GDA it not reappear(knock on wood) and this is more than a year after the fact. Perhaps since everything is likely balanced (c02, lighting, nutrients) that the whole tank is just doing well and algae incluiding GDA is unable to capitalize.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> Cut your light to one bulb. Problem solved. Your plants will die but you wont have GDA. If I have said it one I have said it 1000 times. High light tanks have GDA, I dont know why it is just what happens. Live with it, cut your light, or stop complaning.


Well obviously you must not be one who is able to do it either if the only options are (a) Live with it...(translation: don't know how to have high light without GDA), (b) cut your light to one light bulb (I think the consensus is that this will get rid of the GDA along with plush fast growing plants), or (c) stop complaining...(not what this thread was about).

Many people are able to find that sweet spot where they have "High" light (by anyone's definition) yielding plush fast growing plants...WITHOUT GDA. It's like the holy grail...Excuse me for trying to find out how they do it. I wasn't complaining...just pointing out that I find it very difficult. Complaining would be something like this..."your breathe stinks".


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

8 pages of a "discussion" of GDA?

Leave it alone. Wait 5 weeks. Scrape. Report back.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

epicfish said:


> 8 pages of a "discussion" of GDA?
> 
> Leave it alone. Wait 5 weeks. Scrape. Report back.


5 weeks pasted about 15 weeks ago....who's counting pages, it is the ALGAE forum.

This issue (GDA) is the only issue that I am having that I need to ask for help with...I know it is a saga....but I don't have problems with my filter, my heater, my water...just this one thing....GDA.

Ok ...kill the thread...no more updates on it...the GDA WINS


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Ok ...kill the thread...no more updates on it...the GDA WINS


Nooooo!!!! I just started a highlight 20 H and guess what? I have GDA! I am currently trying the nothing approach to test the theory that it doesn't work.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> 5 weeks pasted about 15 weeks ago....who's counting pages, it is the ALGAE forum.
> 
> This issue (GDA) is the only issue that I am having that I need to ask for help with...I know it is a saga....but I don't have problems with my filter, my heater, my water...just this one thing....GDA.
> 
> Ok ...kill the thread...no more updates on it...the GDA WINS


FWIW and strictly speaking from my own experience only, I believe that your best bet is to keep working towards pushing your tank to a balance by ensuring appropriate c02 levels using a good c02 diffuser, lowering light intensity to make it easier to hit proper c02 levels, getting your fert dosing in order, and heavily planting your tank. I know you are doing some of these things so you may just have to learn to be patient. It may take a long time and feel like trying to shake a stubborn monkey off your back, but I believe that if you persist you will be rewarded with the defeat of GDA. Much of what I stated is not new and comes from Tom Barr who has repeately stated this as a good overall strategy for a healthy algae free tank. I have practiced it and seen the results first hand and it works. Some people will no doubt contest that this only works for other types of algae not GDA. In my case pushing my 40 gallon tank towards a balance and achieving the balance also led to the defeat of Green Dust Algae, along with thread algae and Black Beard Algae(although the Albino Bristlenose Pleco and Siamese Algae Eater really helped with that one).

Just my 2 cents.


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## o snap its eric (Jan 12, 2004)

if i took anything away from this hobby is that i gained some patients. Dealing with algae or plant growth takes waiting. I'm so used to having to see changes occur in a day or less but with algae in particular it can take weeks, even months. Sometimes it feels like its a loosing battle but keep your spirits up and things should go your way.

GDA, get some ottos they would be really happy.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I guess you took my post literaly. My point is after all this if you havent realized that there really isnt any way to avoid it with a higher light tank then there is nothing else I or anyone else can tell you that will help. Hence the live with it comment. 

I live with it and accept it for what it is. It does not kill my plants, and with weekly cleanings (which I do anyway) it is fine.



manofmanyfish said:


> Well obviously you must not be one who is able to do it either if the only options are (a) Live with it...(translation: don't know how to have high light without GDA), (b) cut your light to one light bulb (I think the consensus is that this will get rid of the GDA along with plush fast growing plants), or (c) stop complaining...(not what this thread was about).
> 
> Many people are able to find that sweet spot where they have "High" light (by anyone's definition) yielding plush fast growing plants...WITHOUT GDA. It's like the holy grail...Excuse me for trying to find out how they do it. I wasn't complaining...just pointing out that I find it very difficult. Complaining would be something like this..."your breathe stinks".


Kinda what I was getting at.



epicfish said:


> 8 pages of a "discussion" of GDA?
> 
> Leave it alone. Wait 5 weeks. Scrape. Report back.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

bsmith782 said:


> My point is after all this if you havent realized that there really isnt any way to avoid it with a higher light tank then there is nothing else I or anyone else can tell you.


BINGO...I have become absolutely convinced (a true believer) of this very point, but many are telling me I'm wrong, they are witnesses that it can in fact be DONE...just not by me. I truely hope that I can find their secret...the right combination of ingredients.

But your comment is sooo exactly the issue that I'm trying get at. You hit this threads nail square on the head. Which poses the question, "Am I chasing a Holy Grail that is unacheiveable or am I just not trying the right things". I have read every reply...some agree with me...it's not possible...others say nay, nonsense. Both sides are very experienced and educated, they just have different experiences.

Oh, sorry this thread is dead....killed...


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

manofmanyfish;796110
Oh said:


> Nah, I just saw it move:eek5:


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

The GDA is unbeatable attitude is utter garbage. This thread is FAIL.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Has anyone that told you GDA was not in their tank ever shared the secret or even what kind of lighting they are using.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I have just learned to live with it. A few scrubbs with my algea pad and volia its gone. Garbage I think not, reality I think so.:thumbsup:



imeridian said:


> The GDA is unbeatable attitude is utter garbage. This thread is FAIL.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

imeridian said:


> The life cycle method arises from this particular algae being motile, if you scrape it off it'll just swim back and re-attach. If you allow it to progress to the non-motile life stage, when you scrape it off you'll actually be able to remove it.
> 
> Further reading.
> 
> As with any algae treatment method, if you haven't corrected the conditions leading to the outbreak it will likely return.


Still reading this, as I'm beginning to deal with GDA myself. Somewhere I had asked that if the issue is one of a GDA lifecycle process, would feeders - BN pleco, nerites, otos - actually be a means to perpetually ensure the return of GDA, as they eat the algae prior to its maturation and transformation? 

And I'm concluding now that the reason these voracious algae eaters are not a problem in terms of exacerbating/prolonging the problem is because of this issue of motility. They "vacuum" the algae off the glass, and consume it, whereas a sponge simply wipes it free and tosses it into the water column, correct?

I know this sounds nuts, but I'm kind of looking forward to the maturation of this outbreak, as an experiment and learning process.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Holy s*it a 5 star rated thread gone to a 2 star rated thread.:eek5: Lol, looks like the discussion really pis*ed some people off.

If green dust algae was unbeatable, then no one who experienced it would be able to get rid of it. My 40 gallon tank is living proof that Green Dust Algae can be defeated.

I guess there are two approaches people in this hobby follow. Make peace with the algae and manually remove it periodically so it does not get out of hand and make your tank look ugly. The other approach is to be ever patient and battle it like a person demonically possessed and hope for the best. If you give up the fight, then you accept surrender and live with it. 

You can go back to an unplanted tank, but keep in mind that unplanted tanks also suffer their share of algae. Instead of coating real plants, it coats the plastic plants.


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## hokuryu (Jan 6, 2009)

Ahem.....

_3_ star thread, as of now. My 5-star vote had a one star traction. LOL.


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## manhatton (Oct 17, 2008)

Hmm, I haven't given up completey on this thread or GDA. 

I have done the wait it out method twice, that is definitely a trying ordeal, even more so when it is to no avail. I'm running a 70W MH to get 2.3wpg, which I guess could be seen as "high", but even with reduced photo period and another bottle of DIY C02, I haven't seen a slow down. Raising the light, adding nerites, and one more round of the "life cycle" method will probably be my last attempt before giving in or breaking down. We'll see how it goes!


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## Samarasa (Jan 31, 2009)

How come nobody ever suggests shutting off the CO2, turning down the lights, turning the thermometer down a few degrees, and aerating the heck out of the tank to increase O2? Isn't algae basically caused by anoxic conditions and too much heat/light?

Then again, isn't algae dependent on high ammonia levels? Or what about the nitrate, phosphate and, more importantly, iron levels and their contribution to algae growth?

Jason

ps: Waiting to get my tank running...anticipating my first algae outbreak eagerly! Sorry if I missed a thread or two...


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Samarasa said:


> How come nobody ever suggests shutting off the CO2, turning down the lights, turning the thermometer down a few degrees, and aerating the heck out of the tank to increase O2? Isn't algae basically caused by anoxic conditions and too much heat/light?
> 
> Then again, isn't algae dependent on high ammonia levels? Or what about the nitrate, phosphate and, more importantly, iron levels and their contribution to algae growth?
> 
> ...


Algae is the ultimate opportunist waiting to rear its ugly head when an imbalance happens. It really isn't as complicated as people make it. People make this far more complicated than it needs to be and end up confusing themselves. Stick to the basics and you will be fine. Follow the K.I.S.S rule. Tom Barr expressed it best when he said that Algae was the best test kit of a planted tank imbalance and more accurate than any test kit you could use to try and track down the cause of an algae outbreak. You know you have a major imbalance when you get an algae bloom. The balance is largely regulated by light levels. At higher light levels it becomes more difficult to keep the balance and avoid algae unless you get your c02 and fets in order. Ammonia can be a trigger for algae spores to reproduce, but even in that case high light is the spark that is needed to ignite it. An ammonia spike in a low light tank, will not lead to an algae outbreak, at least that is my experience.

As far as high phosphates and nitrates contributing to algae, this is old school thinking that persists but is a myth. Case in point: my tap water which I use for water changes has a 5+ phosphate reading as tested with a calibrated test kit. That is considered really high and I have yet to see this translate to any kind of algae outbreaks. Even when I was fighting an algae outbreak I increased water changes using the same tap water and was also dosing nitrates. It in no way interfered with my abilitly to fight the algae. The algae disappeared as soon as the tank gained some balance independent of high phosphate and nitrate dosing and plants began to grow like weeds. In a heavily planted tanks, the plants will suck up the the phosphates and nitrates like a sponge and the rate will change from minute to minute, so you can really never have high phosphates or nitrates unless heavily and I mean really heavily dose them(like dump a whole container of nitrates and phosphates into your tank daily), overstock your tank with fish, overfeed them, and have a very lightly planted tank. These are all ingredients for an algae outbreak.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

*My Experimental Results with GDA*

Okay, so I have been following this thread and decided to start up 2 20 gallon tanks side by side and try to find a result to the GDA nightmare using two scenarios.

Equipment:
Presurized co2 1 bps
20 gallon H
65 PC Aqualight
Hours 3 - 12
Startup date: 2/7/2009

Parameters:
Ammonia :0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 40
Hardness: 150 ppm
Alkanity: 40
pH: 6.2

Method of Fertilization:
PPS-Pro

Getting the GDA to start was really easy for me. I turned on the lights for 72 hours straight, added fertilizers as detailed in PPS-Pro and waited.

Tank 1









Tank 2









Once the GDA appeared, I chose to change the schedule of lighting to 3 - 11. 

Tank 1 would stay the same, fertilizers same schedule, water changing at same time and same amount. Co2 was at 1 bps. I would continue to wait for the entire 21 day life cycle as suggested and not touch the GDA.

Tank 2 would also stay the same as above except I decided to turn the Co2 to 3bps. I did not touch the GDA on this tank either.

Here are my results three week into my experiment so far, with tank 1 being on the left side.









Close up of one:









Close up of two:


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

When I was a newb starting into things without having a clue of what I was doing, I purchased a high intensity light and set it up over a tank thinking my plants would grow like never before.

I had a case of GDA that was so bad that it actually was thick on the back wall of the tank. There isn't an otto on this planet that could cut through the caked GDA in my tank.

Then I purchased some macro ferts, micro ferts, and a pressurized CO2 system. At the time, the CO2 drop checkers didn't exist (or were not mainstream), so I followed the advice of people I trusted to get my CO2 levels to where they needed to be. For my particular setup, I was running a pretty high bubble rate and dosing more ferts than average based on my plantload and gallons. Slowly but surely, the GDA receded to much more manageable levels. I still get GDA, but it is a very light dusting from time to time. When I have my system fine tuned, I go weeks without cleaning the glass on my tank. I have never torn the tank or started over and it has been running for years.

Up until I read this thread, I always thought that optimal CO2 levels were the key to keeping GDA at bay in a high light tank. Based on what some others have said, I am not so sure now.

Nutrients do not affect the growth of GDA that I have whitnessed. I have dosed double amounts of everything recommended for my size tank, and it has not increased GDA at all.

I am a firm believer that if you focus on the plants rather than on the issue of algae itself, the algae will take care of itself. Tom Barr can be a great person to listen to if you read what he is actually saying. Many times his insight will cause a person to think for themselves and diagnose their own unique configuration rather than generalize based on ten thousand different possible configurations that they might be running. Doesn't this make sense? What is good advice for one person might be very bad advice for another.

I think some of the most interesting advice given in this thread was by WolfenXXX. Based on the exchange between the OP and WolfenXXX, I would make it a point to get my light raised considerably higher to see if it had an impact on the GDA. The fact that he was so passionate about it gave me pause to think that there was some substance to what he was saying.

sewingalot -

I think your experiment is pretty cool, but there is quite a difference in plant load between the two tanks. I want someone to start one of these experiments and get all parameters the same. Then raise the lighting on one tank to see how/if things change.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

biscuitslayer

I actually had the same amount of plants and same types until recently. I started to scape the right side now since the algae is nearly spotless. I should have waited to make it a true controlled experiment, you are right.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

sewingalot said:


> I should have waited to make it a true controlled experiment, you are right.


Making this a controlled experiment would be very difficult. You would probably also need yet another tank with the same setup but without plants. Also, you probably wouldn't have wanted to jumpstart the GDA by leaving the lights on for 72 hours (unless you did it on all running setups).

In any case, if you continue the experiment it will be interesting to see what your findings are.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> Nooooo!!!! I just started a highlight 20 H and guess what? I have GDA! I am currently trying the nothing approach to test the theory that it doesn't work.


Cool experiment Sewingalot. Too many have had success with the Do Nothing approach. It worked for them. All I can say is it didn't work for me. Maybe I did it wrong.



hokuryu said:


> I know this sounds nuts, but I'm kind of looking forward to the maturation of this outbreak, as an experiment and learning process.


Definitely, keep us posted on your results.



Homer_Simpson said:


> If green dust algae was unbeatable, then no one who experienced it would be able to get rid of it. My 40 gallon tank is living proof that Green Dust Algae can be defeated.


Good Point!!

Ok, Dead Thread Update #3 - 
I've raised my light fixture as high above the rim as I can. Effective Feb. 26th, I reduced light by turning off 2 bulbs and now only run 2 bulbs for 8 hours.

I removed the natural river rocks (which I think may have been running kH very high as a reaction to the lower pH due to CO2). 

My CO2 ran out on Feb. 21st, will get the refill back March 5th. Stopped the ferts when the CO2 stopped. I'm going to do a thorough cleaning when the tank comes back and take another stab at this.

Happy Birthday ...I passed my first year anniversary for my tank. I'm a one year old hobbiest.

I have re-read the thread and here's what have I learned.

1. Nutrients have nothing to do with it...we over dose the heck out of them, so it's not an inbalence of ferts...(thanks Tom).

2. Make sure my CO2 is not the limiting factor. My drop checker was always on the "yellow-green" side, but oddly enough, when I changed my AquaMedic 500 reactor to my DIY Rex reactor, my bubble rate went up not down. I think there's work to do here.

3. Cut the light intensity and / or light period. I've done both. This seems to be the most common item of dicussion relating to GDA. I'm convience where I need to focus.

4. Plant load I think is good, but some raised the question of fish load. I think the tank is on the high side....maybe a problem?

5. Be patient and keep trying = eventual success!!!:thumbsup:


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## PRESTON4479 (Mar 22, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> 3. Cut the light intensity and / or light period. I've done both. This seems to be the most common item of dicussion relating to GDA. I'm convience where I need to focus.


This has been the only thing that has made a big difference in the GDA/GSA situation for me. I have gotten it to the point now to where it is growing slowly and it only gets bothersome after a few weeks. Then I use magnetic scraper to clean it off and do a water change. I am experimenting now with increasing phosphates since some say low phosphates can be a cause. It did also seem to help a little when I switched over to 20lb co2 bottle and had more consistency there.

Hang in there. It can only get better.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Update of my experiment inspired by manofmanyfish's thread (hope I'm not hijacking) of the DREADED green dust algae!

The first two pictures are coming from tank one (on left side of third picture). The do nothing approach is not working yet. Or is it? The growth of GDA is about twice the amount and is thick on the glass. Strange thing, the plant growth in the first tank is better, but covered in algae. The second tank has had steady growth, but slower than the first. Also, there a lot more snails in the first tank than the second. (I placed two snails in each tank on startup.)


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Wow, that is quite interesting. If you can get a zebra nerite snail and put it in the one with GDA, it would be interesting to see what happens. Some people claim that they have observed Zebra Nerite snails cut through green dust and even green spot algae like knife through butter.

FWIW, when I cut my lighting from 13 watt to 10 watt in my 5 gallon hex where it was beginning to materialize, it pretty much vaporized. I thought of getting a zebra nerite snail before I chose to lower the lighting just to see what would happen, but as I already have an assassin snail in the tank, I felt it would have been unsafe for a Zebra Nerite snail to be in the same tank.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Cool, so let me see if I got this. Bad tank and good tank both have the exact same light at this point. Bad tank has 1 bps CO2 and Good tank has 3 bps. Is that it? I don't think I'd introduce too many new variable at this point, I'd stay the course for a while.

Say what you want to, but somebody (who has many fish) might just learn something from this experiment.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Wow, that is quite interesting. If you can get a zebra nerite snail and put it in the one with GDA, it would be interesting to see what happens. Some people claim that they have observed Zebra Nerite snails cut through green dust and even green spot algae like knife through butter.
> 
> FWIW, when I cut my lighting from 13 watt to 10 watt in my 5 gallon hex where it was beginning to materialize, it pretty much vaporized. I thought of getting a zebra nerite snail before I chose to lower the lighting just to see what would happen, but as I already have an assassin snail in the tank, I felt it would have been unsafe for a Zebra Nerite snail to be in the same tank.



Cannot get Nerite snails around here. I would like to get some eventually. Once I get over the whole snails are icky issue. I can handle small ones, but the dime sized ones still disturb me. :icon_roll



manofmanyfish said:


> Cool, so let me see if I got this. Bad tank and good tank both have the exact same light at this point. Bad tank has 1 bps CO2 and Good tank has 3 bps. Is that it? I don't think I'd introduce too many new variable at this point, I'd stay the course for a while.
> 
> Say what you want to, but somebody (who has many fish) might just learn something from this experiment.


Manofmanyfish - Yes, both tanks have the same light, I dose the same fertilizers, both have two male feeder guppies, and I even change the same amount of water each week. Tank one is 1 bps and tank 2 is 3bps. I can let this run for as long as it takes to prove or disprove the idea of the wait and see. All I know is that more than a month has past and I see more GDA in the first tank. Also, the GDA is getting some brown patches.

Edit: oh, and the filters and heaters are the same with the temperature set at 78 degrees.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Well that definitely does it for me. I'm going to conclude without a doubt, that light and CO2 definitely have something to do with it...and I don't care what anybody says.

Too much light and GDA starts, not enough CO2 and it grows....but now....can you get rid of it? (without starting over).

Absolutely, can not be caused by nutrients! True or Not True? (I think true). At least not in this situation.

Amount of light the same...huh...so, changing light won't make it go away! True or Not? I'm thinking light changes at this point aren't it, because you have the same on the good tank. Not logical that light is the problem since it clearly is not on the good one.

That leaves us with the one thing that's different...CO2. So if you continue with the low CO2, your algae isn't going to go away, no matter how long you "do nothing". Does that make sense? Question is, can you make it go away (after a cleaning) by simply upping the CO2 to equal the other tank?

God has blessed us with science...(now if we can only understand it:icon_roll).

P.S. Everyone who finds this thread boring has my permission to ignore it.


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## whitecloud09 (Jan 19, 2009)

I've spent the last couple of hours reading through this thread and others linked from it...very educational stuff. I'm going through this now in a 20g high tank that's almost two weeks old.








I had also wondered about doing water changes during the wait it out period and have got my answers. I also have a ADA Mini-M setup similar to this and and only a day behind the 20 and so far no GDA, but I think GSA is there slightly.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

There is a way to find out if co2 will kill it for sure. Since the wait and see doesn't seem to be working, I will up the co2 to 3 bps tomorrow and see what happens. :thumbsup:


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

whitecloud09 said:


> I had also wondered about doing water changes during the wait it out period and have got my answers.


Whitecloud, what did you do?


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## whitecloud09 (Jan 19, 2009)

Having done anything yet, but plan to do a water change later this evening...probably 50%.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Let us know how it goes.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> There is a way to find out if co2 will kill it for sure. Since the wait and see doesn't seem to be working, I will up the co2 to 3 bps tomorrow and see what happens. :thumbsup:


Oh, I think it would be unfair to expect it all to disappear (in any short period of time) by just upping the CO2....I think it would be a fair and valued assessment if you decided to clean the tank (normal type with wc), then up the dose...that's what any hobbyist would do trying to combat this thing.

And by the way, thanks for doing this and sharing it here. Some folks who have been doing this for 20 years may find all this elementary, but for those of us who are just beginning, it helps us understand it.


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## whitecloud09 (Jan 19, 2009)

Okay I've actually scrub some of it off the glass before the WC and sucked a lot of it out. I know supposedly you shouldn't touch it, but it's my first WC and I don't care about waiting longer if it reappears. The photoperiod is done for the day so no pics. If it reappears it's fine since I'll probably start over with dosing next week after learning about EI and adding more plants. Don't plan on adding any fish or shrimp until almost the end of April.

These from yesterday...


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## CLASSIC (Feb 25, 2009)

Wow that was a great read.

Thought i might chime in from a low tech tank perspective. 
I started my 30 gallon tank 8 months ago, it has two 18watt t-8s on it. It has plain gravel only. I used flourish once a week in it and nothing else . Apon setting it up i stocked it with plants. Once cycled i added 7 cardinals and a pleco. I never vaccumed gravel and only did a water change every month and a half. Within 4 months the plants were growing out of control, but there was also a ton of snails and GDA all over the glass that required a scraping weekly or sooner.

I bought 2 loaches to clean the snails up as the snails didnt affect the GDA. (Loaches were small and later moved to a 72 gallon) Started doing 2 or more 25-30% water changes a week and dosing 2 times the flourish i was. Shortened the light period and vaccumed gravel lightly once a month. 

The GDA dissappeared and never came back,(so did the snails  ). I never have to clean the glass anymore and my plants look great.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Oh, I think it would be unfair to expect it all to disappear (in any short period of time) by just upping the CO2....I think it would be a fair and valued assessment if you decided to clean the tank (normal type with wc), then up the dose...that's what any hobbyist would do trying to combat this thing.
> 
> And by the way, thanks for doing this and sharing it here. Some folks who have been doing this for 20 years may find all this elementary, but for those of us who are just beginning, it helps us understand it.


No problem, manofmanyfish. I get just as frustrated with the algae as well. If I can find a way to help others while trying to figure it out as well, that is a bonus. I tell you what, I'll up the co2 and leave the tank alone until Saturday or Sunday. And if it isn't falling off, I will change the tank's water 25% and scrape off the GDA and see what happens. Deal?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

whitecloud, this is a great progression. I am looking forward to seeing how it works out for you as well. We are bound to come up with an answer sooner or later, no?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Sewingalot might be correct about CO2. I cannot say for sure, but I cannot dispell that hypothesis either.

Which is easier to do for other parameters.
You also have a lot more plant biomass(thus demand) for CO2 in the GDA, whereas the other tank with the higher bubble rate ha about 2-3x less plant biomass, so the issue with CO2 is much greater between the two aquariums.

I have had GDA in my tanks a home here and there. But...........only in tanks where a CO2 was prevelant. Still, I've had tanks where I know I added some fresh GDA, from the scrub pad from the other infested tanks, and never was able to induce GDA in those tanks.

It often never made in tanks where the plant growth was good and growing at a high rate. In tanks where it grew, the system was a little off perhaps. 

My 180 gal has never had it, the 120 had it for some time, the 38 got it, but it was very packed with plants by then and likely low CO2, but not enough to affect the plants growth etc.

Hard to say exactly. 
You run a few tanks and try to induce it a few times will help a lot more, as you often see it's not so simple. I have had tanks that acted fine, whereas others went to heck in a hand basket asap. It's the tanks that are doing well, you should impose the treatments on. So incoulate those. If they do not get the GDA, then see if you can induce it with CO2, but dropping it to 2bps, or 1.5 et and do so slowly, till you get the GDA appearing.

Since you want to test your theory, and you think you are correct, you should be able to get rid of the GDA right?

So why not do that?

Either that or you are not quite as sure as you think?:tongue:
It's your hypothesis, so test it!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I have upped the co2 as of yesterday and will see what happens. This evening, I noticed a lot more pearling in tank one. I am going to do a trim this weekend and add plants to the other tank to see if I can at least a closer plant mass between the two tanks.

Tom - you are right. The plant mass is not the same. I actually took plants from the second tank and put them in there to see if it would help the algae problem any. This is definitely a flaw in the system. Next time, I am going to try and repeat the green dust algae with the same types of plants and same number of stems. Right now, I am thinking I should leave it as is in order to get an idea of the co2, since I have already started the process. Good ideas, though.

I don't necessarily think I am right or wrong about the co2, but I am leaning more and more toward there being a correlation. I am just trying to find answers as a hobby. Algae as a whole is fascinating to me and I am curious to try many different ideas. After I finish this idea of co2, I will break down the tanks completely and see if I am able to start up the GDA again. I am a patient person with a lot of free time.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Try to induce GDA in the other tank and reduce the CO2 bubble rate to that of the other tank.

If it's really a CO2 issue, then we should be able to get rid of it again somewhat easily using good CO2 again and some cleaning.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I will have to try that. Thanks for the idea.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Sewingalot, I thought you started both tanks with the same number of plants.

I was thinking of the "good" tank as the control, and the GDA tank as the tank you were manipulating to observer the effects of changes.

If you make the "good" tank the experimental, won't you simply have two tanks with GDA...I'm confused. 

You know you can induce GDA, you did that at the beginning. 

I guess I would understand Tom's suggestion if you try to induce GDA in the "good" tank, where all the conditions are "right", implying that if everything is "right" GDA can't establish itself. 

But if you change the conditions (reduce CO2), what are you proving, that the bad tank is bad because the CO2 is too low?

I'm not being critical, just thinking. I'm trying to see if I understand what Tom's suggestion would tell us.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Sewingalot, I thought you started both tanks with the same number of plants.
> 
> I was thinking of the "good" tank as the control, and the GDA tank as the tank you were manipulating to observer the effects of changes.
> 
> ...


Manofmanyfish - 

Originally I set up the tank with the same amount of plants but added more to the tank with lower co2 levels to see if this would help with the GDA. (You know the outcome algae saying?) I saw this wasn't working, so I left both tanks as is. I would like to do this again without adding additional plants if my theory works.

My intentions are to maintain tank two with the status quo. I thought Tom was saying that once I got the first tank's GDA to disappear, I should lower the co2 again to see if it comes back. I didn't realize he meant changing tank #2. My idea was keep tank 2 as the control so to speak (even though it is somewhat flawed by the plant mass.) 

Here is what I have done since the last post:
1. Feed the feeder guppies and discovered one of the males was actually a female that was apparently too young to sex when she was younger. And that there are 21 babies in the tank now plus the proud parents.
2. Upped the co2 in tank 1.
3. Left tank 2 as is.

So here are my questions for you. 

Should I add more plant mass to tank two or leave it as is? I am leaning toward as is for this experiment, since I am trying to limit my changes to this tank. What do you think?
You mentioned cleaning the tank sides with the GDA, should I do this still?

Even if you are being critical, it is good. I like the ideas and questioning. After all, it was your plan that got me questioning my first experience with GDA. I did nothing and wiped it off as suggested. It magically disappeared. But the more I thought about my original experience, I also cut back lighting and increased co2 at the same time it went away. Thus, you created a monster! As I said before, this is my hobby and I find trying to figure out the problem of GDA relaxing to me. :redface: By the way, I swear I already see changes in the GDA. I may be staring too hard. :icon_eek:


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Well, it's your experiment...you're doing all the work. I'm just asking to see if I understand the conversation...which isn't always easy.

I suppose you could try both. You could increase the CO2 in the "GDA" tank to see if a "mere" adjustment of CO2 resolves the problem. After all, that is I believe the consensus recommendation in this thread and what many recommend on the forum for this situation, "Oh, you've got GDA, increase your CO2"...let's see if that shows any improvement.

Meanwhile, you have a "good" tank...can you "induce" GDA simply by transferring GDA into the tank. Are the "right" parameters such a deterent to prevent GDA from establishing itself. 

If you can't get GDA to establish itself with the right conditions, then test if it can be "induced" simply by running lower CO2. If you can't induce GDA, then I'll take over the experiment. I know I can. If you are able to get the GDA to take hold, see if you can reverse it by going back to the higher levels of CO2.

Maybe this was what Tom was suggesting, I don't know if this is the right approach? But it is fun to watch your experiments...maybe I'll understand this when it's all over.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Hey, I consider this our experiment! After all, I got this idea from your thread and have since hijacked it. I understand having trouble understanding the conversations going on here at times. I think it is easy to get lost, at least I do.... 

So this is what I am going to do.
1. Keep the co2 for both tanks now (since yesterday) at 3 bubbles per second.
2. Keep tank 2 at the status quo until I am able to give the amazons to a friend I am 
holding them for.
3. Once I get the amazons out of there, I will lower the co2 and see what happens. If 
I can't induce it, I know you can! 
4. Keep up the water changes and fertilization schedules for both tanks.
5. Scrap off the GDA in tank one and see if it reappears.

What do you think?


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

Good Grief, I believe my GDA is gone. When the CO2 ran out, I stopped ferts and cut the light back to 2 bulbs (T5-HOs) @ 8 hrs/day. I pretty much just forgot about the tank...("Did Nothing"), waiting for the CO2 tank to come back. I started focusing on Sewingalot's experiment. 

Meanwhile, the algae / tank was looking pretty bad, but I left it alone thinking I'd clean up and start over when I restarted the CO2. Well, last weekend, I cleaned the algae out of the tank w/very thorough cleaning. On Monday of this week, I got the CO2 tank back and started it at a low bps (tank went 15 days without CO2). I didn't even put the drop checker back in until 10 minutes ago. I still haven't resumed ferts.

I'm afraid my algae is gone and I won't be able to talk about it in this thread anymore!!! :icon_cry: {applause, please}

Sewingalot, (maybe) it's all yours. I want my GDA back!!! :icon_redf


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

manofmanyfish said:


> I'm afraid my algae is gone and I won't be able to talk about it in this thread anymore!!! :icon_cry: {applause, please}
> 
> Sewingalot, (maybe) it's all yours. I want my GDA back!!! :icon_redf


Sometimes we get what we wish for. GDA is like the proverbial bad penny.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> ...*cut the light back to 2 bulbs (T5-HOs) @ 8 hrs/day*...f











I am not surprised. I have defeated green dust algae in my low tech and hight tech tanks simply by reducing photoperiod and light intensity. This is what a lot of people were trying to tell you from the start. I am glad you finally listened and decided to do the right thing. When light levels are reduced it becomes easier to gain a balance, plain and simple.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> good grief, i believe my gda is gone. When the co2 ran out, i stopped ferts and cut the light back to 2 bulbs (t5-hos) @ 8 hrs/day. I pretty much just forgot about the tank...("did nothing"), waiting for the co2 tank to come back. I started focusing on sewingalot's experiment.
> 
> Meanwhile, the algae / tank was looking pretty bad, but i left it alone thinking i'd clean up and start over when i restarted the co2. Well, last weekend, i cleaned the algae out of the tank w/very thorough cleaning. On monday of this week, i got the co2 tank back and started it at a low bps (tank went 15 days without co2). I didn't even put the drop checker back in until 10 minutes ago. I still haven't resumed ferts.
> 
> ...


yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Well, I though I got rid of the amazons last night. Looks like I am stuck with them. My friend didn't realize how big they will get, lol. 

While I was up there, I am noticing the GDA in tank one is showing signs of abatement (along with the fuzz and hair algae). To speed up this process, I am going to do what Tom suggested and lower the co2 in tank 2 to 1 bps and leave tank 1 at 3bs. Let's see if I can induce it!


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Went to feed the fish. I am definitely seeing the algae in tank one getting brown and some of the glass is clear! No change in second tank.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Went to feed the fish. I am definitely seeing the algae in tank one getting brown and some of the glass is clear! No change in second tank.


Is the brown algae one you could wipe of or is it like "brown dust algae" that is still caked on the glass? Thanks for sharing your experiences, this is really interesting. I have a 10 gallon, where at one time I had green dust algae. When I decreased total light intensity from 30 watts total to 20 watts, it cleared up totally. Then, out of curiousity, I bumped the intensity up to 26 watts(2 13 watt compact fluorescent bulbs) from 20 watts and the green dust algae is back with a vengence. I just modified my c02 diffuser like oldpunk78 by fitting the submersible hagen filter with a limewood diffuser to see if I can enhance c02 diffusion and if it makes a difference. Eventually, I plan to rescape that tank and go pressurized c02 so I may just have some fun with the tank in the mean time by monkeying around with DIY c02 and light levels to see what happens to the GDA.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

It is the green dust algae with browning parts. Actually, it is looking a little like the GDA in your slide show. I actually think it is dying off. I will try to get a picture up tomorrow. My batteries are charging.  Your 10 gallon sounds like a cool experiment. I'd like to see the results. You should post them here as well.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I went to feed the fish and had to take some pictures. Since Manofmanyfish's GDA went away, I decided to do what Tom suggested and lower the co2 in tank 2 to see if I can induce the GDA. Guess what? The GDA in tank 1 is going away since raising the co2 to 3 bps and the GDA is showing up in tank 2 with the lowered co2 at 1 bps.










Even with the glare, if you look at the left side of the tank, notice how it is browning and sliming up on the corner. Right where the sunset hydro is, this happened a couple days ago and that section of the glass is now clear without scraping! Of course, there is some brown sludge on the bottom of the tank that I suspect is the dead/dying algae from this section. Also, on the back glass, I scraped a small section and the GDA has not reappeared on this area.

One the left side of the glass, and left back wall the GDA is starting to appear. At first I thought it could be GSA, so I wiped some with my fingers. It comes off easily and is softer to the touch than GSA.









Since the tanks have obvious plant mass differences, I am going to do Homer's and Tom's suggestion and add the same amount of plants to both tanks this weekend. I will update any new progress.

However, I am starting to see a correlation between GDA, lighting and CO2. My theory is simple. The more light you have, the more co2 you need to subdue the chances of GDA taking hold in your tank. Just like every other algae. Wow. Deep thinking. :icon_roll


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I went to feed the fish and had to take some pictures. Since Manofmanyfish's GDA went away, I decided to do what Tom suggested and lower the co2 in tank 2 to see if I can induce the GDA. Guess what? The GDA in tank 1 is going away since raising the co2 to 3 bps and the GDA is showing up in tank 2 with the lowered co2 at 1 bps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, thanks for doing this and sharing your findings! I just lowered the light intensity on my 10 gallon from 26 watts(2 13 watt 6500 K sprial compact fluorescent) with DIY c02 to 20 watts(2 10 watt 6500 K spiral compact fluorescent bulbs). I did not post pictures because the tank looks pretty bu*t ugly right now because of poor aquascaping(plants are doing fine though) and I want to rescape and get pressurized c02 for the tank. I can honestly tell you that things were fine until I bumped the light up from 20 watts to 26 watts. That is when the tank began to increasingly look like the GDA covered tank in your picture and it was getting worse. I predict that the GDA will recede with the drop in light intensity over the next 3 weeks or so,without any change to the DIY c02(no extra bottle or enhanced diffusion), let us see what happens. By the way, I dose Seachem Excel daily on this tank as well, FWIW.

I believe your findings make a lot of sense. I also feel that this would likely be more an issue with high lighting and DIY c02 where c02 consistency is more difficult to achieve. So reducing lighting may help for those with DIY c02, GDA, and inabiltiy to pressurized c02. With pressurized c02 where consistent c02 levels are easier to target and maintain, it would probably be easier to deal with GDA under higher light intensity by tweaking and finetuning c02 levels.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

It's nice to see this thread has recovered from failure. Good job sewingalot!


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

imeridian said:


> It's nice to see this thread has recovered from failure. Good job sewingalot!


That was always just your opinion at perhaps a low point where people where questioning things. We should be able to question things when we're learning. If we already knew what the experienced members knew, there wouldn't be a need to ask. We were just thinking out loud and expressing our thoughts to see if we understood. Nice to have you back.

Amen, Sewingalot...great work.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Productive action beats hopeless whining any day.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Wow, thanks for doing this and sharing your findings! I just lowered the light intensity on my 10 gallon from 26 watts(2 13 watt 6500 K sprial compact fluorescent) with DIY c02 to 20 watts(2 10 watt 6500 K spiral compact fluorescent bulbs). I did not post pictures because the tank looks pretty bu*t ugly right now because of poor aquascaping(plants are doing fine though) and I want to rescape and get pressurized c02 for the tank. I can honestly tell you that things were fine until I bumped the light up from 20 watts to 26 watts. That is when the tank began to increasingly look like the GDA covered tank in your picture and it was getting worse. I predict that the GDA will recede with the drop in light intensity over the next 3 weeks or so,without any change to the DIY c02(no extra bottle or enhanced diffusion), let us see what happens. By the way, I dose Seachem Excel daily on this tank as well, FWIW.
> 
> I believe your findings make a lot of sense. I also feel that this would likely be more an issue with high lighting and DIY c02 where c02 consistency is more difficult to achieve. So reducing lighting may help for those with DIY c02, GDA, and inabiltiy to pressurized c02. With pressurized c02 where consistent c02 levels are easier to target and maintain, it would probably be easier to deal with GDA under higher light intensity by tweaking and finetuning c02 levels.


Homer, that is amazing only 6 watts of light could make such a difference. But when I think about it, I went from 15 watts to 20 watts on my tank with no co2 and started having algae growth. You should post the pictures anyway. After all, look how ugly mine. It would be a good contrast to see two different methods to trying to control green dust algae.

Now you are making me want to start up another tank with DIY Co2 and see what happens. My husband is about to kill me with all this talk about algae and tanks anyway.  Now that you mention Excel, I should say that I purposely don't use it in these two tanks. I was afraid this would interfere with the process.

Here is a question for you. Should I continue to leave the GDA on the glass or scrap it off? I am leaving it alone for the most part. I was concerned this would interfere with my experiment.

Imeridian - thanks for the kind words. :redface:


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

manofmanyfish said:


> Amen, Sewingalot...great work.


Sorry, manofmanyfish. I forgot to thank you in my earlier post. How is the GDA on your front?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Homer, that is amazing only 6 watts of light could make such a difference. But when I think about it, I went from 15 watts to 20 watts on my tank with no co2 and started having algae growth. You should post the pictures anyway. After all, look how ugly mine. It would be a good contrast to see two different methods to trying to control green dust algae.
> 
> Now you are making me want to start up another tank with DIY Co2 and see what happens. My husband is about to kill me with all this talk about algae and tanks anyway.  Now that you mention Excel, I should say that I purposely don't use it in these two tanks. I was afraid this would interfere with the process.
> 
> ...


I would leave the GDA alone. When I had an outbreak in my 5 gallon low tech hex, I left it alone and replaced the 13 watt bulb with a 10 watt 6500 K bulb. Talk about only 6 watts, that was only a reduction of 3 watts and amazingly the green dust receded within 3 weeks. This is interesting. You would think that with a c02 limitation that Excel dosing in addition to DIY c02 would make a dfference, but it did not with the 10 gallon. I knew I was taking a risk by replacing the 2 10 watts with 2 13 watt bulbs and figured that DIY c02 combined with Excel Dosing would avoid issues. Obviously, it does not seem enough to ward off Green Dust Algae. Believe it or not but the same tank had crystal clear glass prior to this change. 

This is what that 10 gallon looks like. I just switched the bulbs back to two 10 watts yesterday, so the effects likely will not be seen for 3-4 weeks. Based on my experience with other tanks where this happened and I reduced light intensity, I am sure this will help, but if it does not I plan to inject pressurized c02. There will be no other changes made to this tank other than the change to the 2 10 watt bulbs. Let's see what happens. I will post updated pictures after 4 weeks.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> Sorry, manofmanyfish. I forgot to thank you in my earlier post. How is the GDA on your front?


Mine is greatly reduced, but not gone. I've had no ferts since Feb. 22 when CO2 ran out. I saw a little GDA coming back in several places, but just wiped it away with the magnetic scrubber. It's significantly less than when I started. I think I'm going to leave everything as is....running only 2 bulbs 8 hr/day, no ferts, low CO2 for a few months and see what happens.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I would leave the GDA alone. When I had an outbreak in my 5 gallon low tech hex, I left it alone and replaced the 13 watt bulb with a 10 watt 6500 K bulb. Talk about only 6 watts, that was only a reduction of 3 watts and amazingly the green dust receded within 3 weeks. This is interesting. You would think that with a c02 limitation that Excel dosing in addition to DIY c02 would make a dfference, but it did not with the 10 gallon. I knew I was taking a risk by replacing the 2 10 watts with 2 13 watt bulbs and figured that DIY c02 combined with Excel Dosing would avoid issues. Obviously, it does not seem enough to ward off Green Dust Algae. Believe it or not but the same tank had crystal clear glass prior to this change.
> 
> This is what that 10 gallon looks like. I just switched the bulbs back to two 10 watts yesterday, so the effects likely will not be seen for 3-4 weeks. Based on my experience with other tanks where this happened and I reduced light intensity, I am sure this will help, but if it does not I plan to inject pressurized c02. There will be no other changes made to this tank other than the change to the 2 10 watt bulbs. Let's see what happens. I will post updated pictures after 4 weeks.


Okay, Homer. I am following your advice and leaving the GDA alone. :thumbsup:Wow, that is an ugly tank! (Just Joking.) I can believe the crystal clear glass. I just switched from a 15 watt strip light to the compact flourescent 20 watt screw in lights and I am seeing a little algae creep in my betta's tank.  

I am looking forward to seeing the difference in a few weeks on your 10 gallon. Between your tank, manofmanyfish's and mine, this will be an interesting thread.  

By the way, I added more plants to tank 2 last night so the plant mass are more equally balanced. I will update next week with pictures on the progress. Good luck with your tank (as if you need it with your nice tanks!)

Manofmanyfish - I hate to hear your GDA is creeping back. I think you are smart to lower the lights. I am not experience enough on whether or not the fertilizers and no co2 is a good idea. Therefore, I will leave this one up to the experts. But as an educated guess, if you lower the lights, you should be able to lower fertilizing and co2 with ease. Keep us informed. Do you have any pictures to update?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> ...Wow, that is an ugly tank! (Just Joking.) I can believe the crystal clear glass...


100% no joke; I concur that it is one ugly tank and probably cursed. I am surprised that the Amano Shirmp in the tank are doing as well as they are. This tank has had its ups and downs, and I call it my anomaly tank. Being curious instead of leaving well enough alone, I always tinker and monkey around with it and then end up with issues, so I may probably in large part to blame for its sad state of affairs. With the Amano Shrimp doing so well in the tank and no where to relocate them, I am pretty much stuck with working with the tank to see if I can move it towards a balance, which I have in the past. Then, just leave it alone! At some point, I will seriously rescape it. Hopefully, that will address some of the ugliness, LOL.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I know what you mean about putting up with a little bit of ugly for the sake of the inhabitants. I am glad to hear your Amanos are loving it even with the GDA. I have a tank with my Celestial Pearl Danios that I refuse to post because of its ugliness. The CPDs couldn't be happier, but I hate the landscape. It is literally a ball of moss with marselia quad (spelling?) sticking out of it, lol!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I know what you mean about putting up with a little bit of ugly for the sake of the inhabitants. I am glad to hear your Amanos are loving it even with the GDA. I have a tank with my Celestial Pearl Danios that I refuse to post because of its ugliness. The CPDs couldn't be happier, but I hate the landscape. It is literally a ball of moss with marselia quad (spelling?) sticking out of it, lol!


Just to give you an idea. This was how this experimental tank looked at one time 
http://azdhan.googlepages.com/thelostworld

Things began to go downhill at some point and I was grasping at straws trying to figure out what it was. I finally pinned down the issues with the tank as being light and c02 related. Tom Barr kept telling me this but was too stubborn and did not listen and instead got caught up with seeing if water parameters or fertilizers were responsible. As you can see from the water parameters tested, the water parameters for the most part were what would be considered in the ideal range for plant growth. The long term plan for this tank is to rescape, leave it at 20 watts, and go pressurized with c02.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Big difference between then and now. Amazing how much is turning out to be co2 and light related and not nutrients as I first thought. I am interested in seeing your outcome in comparison to mine. I love discovering how algae works for some reason.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Big difference between then and now. Amazing how much is turning out to be co2 and light related and not nutrients as I first thought. I am interested in seeing your outcome in comparison to mine. I love discovering how algae works for some reason.


Shocking but c02 and light were the only things left. As you saw, I experimented with different fertilization methods. First PPS-Pro, then EI liquid and powdered, and everything in between and it did not stave of the algae. Also, this shows that a c02 drop checker and c02 chart may not be as accurate as some people think. Notice, how for the most part even with DIY c02, the drop checker was a consistent lime green indicating 30 ppm of c02. And who would ever think or even say that 30 watt of 6500K light from 2 fluroescent bulbs would be considered too much light for a 10 gallon to throw the tank out of balance long term. And the biggest lesson of all, there is no such thing as quick fix algae cures. The simple act of replacing the 2 15 watt bulbs with 2 10 watt bulbs and leaving everything else the same caused the tank to make a turnaround, until of course curiosity got the best of me and I replaced the 2 10 watt with 2 13 watt bulbs. And now, I have the Green Dust Algae.


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## reybie (Jun 7, 2007)

I'm giving this a try on my 40 breeder, it's been a week already but I'm so tempted to scrape the glass so bad.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Shocking but c02 and light were the only things left. As you saw, I experimented with different fertilization methods. First PPS-Pro, then EI liquid and powdered, and everything in between and it did not stave of the algae. Also, this shows that a c02 drop checker and c02 chart may not be as accurate as some people think. Notice, how for the most part even with DIY c02, the drop checker was a consistent lime green indicating 30 ppm of c02. And who would ever think or even say that 30 watt of 6500K light from 2 fluroescent bulbs would be considered too much light for a 10 gallon to throw the tank out of balance long term. And the biggest lesson of all, there is no such thing as quick fix algae cures. The simple act of replacing the 2 15 watt bulbs with 2 10 watt bulbs and leaving everything else the same caused the tank to make a turnaround, until of course curiosity got the best of me and I replaced the 2 10 watt with 2 13 watt bulbs. And now, I have the Green Dust Algae.


You want to know something stupid? I am having algae problems with my main tank. I just got stronger lights and didn't even think to turn up the co2, even though I am trying this experiment. D'oh! (as you would say, Homer.)

It is really strange because I use PPS Pro and was thinking it was my fertilization, not the co2. Thankfully, there are people like Tom Barr and yourself to set people like me straight, lol.

I am starting to understand what you mean by "there is no quick fix for algae.". You can always treat the symptoms, but without finding the ultimate cause it will keep coming back. How long did it take you to realize this?

I knew the co2 chart was flawed pretty quick since I have really low KH levels. I was showing over 40 ppm with no injection. However, I thought the DC was very accurate. Now, I am also starting to believe the co2 drop checker is not as accurate as I was told. I had lime green in my tank and was having algae troubles (BBA, hair, fuzz). I upped the co2 this weekend on my 55 and my DC is yellow. The fish are fine and I am noticing a little red tint on my algae closest to the co2 diffuser. 

Hmmm......in your tank you didn't raise co2 levels, still dosed excel but started getting GDA almost immediately when raising the light from 20 to 26 watts. In manofmanyfish's tank, he had high light, co2 and ei ferts. In my tank, I used PPS-Pro, high light and low co2. I am curious to know what manofmanyfish's co2 was set at and what method of fertilization you are using. I think we can rule out fertilizers (since there are two different methods being employed with GDA present). So it is still coming down to high lights and the amount of co2 in my experience. 

By the way, went to feed the fish today and there is more GDA in tank 2. Tank 1 is stable, I am not seeing more growth of GDA.

Reybie - Good luck. Report back your results on the do nothing approach.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Well.....it's the following week and I promised to update pictures. I increased the plant mass in tank 2 to make the tanks a little more equal. Tank 1 with now 3bps (left) is definitely getting better. roud: And tank 2 reduced to 1bps (right) is starting to have GDA show up more and more. :icon_mrgr Low CO2 levels is definitely related to this algae blooming. Big surprise. 

Side by side comparison:









Manofmanyfish - How is your tank? Did you get the new bloom under control?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Well, the experiment had to be ended. I have a very sick fish that I needed to move from quarantine to treat and these tanks were already cycled and planted. I dosed Furan 2 in tank 1 after removing the other fish and putting in the sick fish. This evening after just 2 days of dosing, the GDA is dying rapidly. I cannot tell if the medicine is a contributing factor or if the co2 is just doing its job. I hope to try this experiment again in the near future and will update.


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## manofmanyfish (Mar 31, 2008)

sewingalot said:


> Manofmanyfish - How is your tank? Did you get the new bloom under control?


Nope... the back wall (glass) is completely covered with GDA because I can't use the magnetic scrubber back there like I can on the other sides. The back only gets cleaned when I do a w/c. Even with 2 bulbs (T5HO @ 39w each) running only 8 hr/day and raised as high above the rim as I can get them, it's too much light (CO2 has drop checker Yellow-green)...too many bps to count....no ferts.

I don't know what I'm going to do, but it is getting discouraging. With spring/summer coming garden, mowing (4 acres)...I just don't have the time to baby sit this anymore.

I hope the fish like algae in their tank. I guess if it gets too disgusting, I'll shut it down and try again this fall.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

That really sucks. Have you thought about adding floaters in the meantime? They may help cut down on the lighting even more. I hope the best for you. I wish I could give better advice, but I really don't know what to tell you other than not to give up. Find what works for you and do that. If high tech is not working, switch to lower tech. I did that with a few tanks and couldn't be happier with them.


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## KDahlin (Mar 12, 2007)

manofmanyfish said:


> Nope... the back wall (glass) is completely covered with GDA because I can't use the magnetic scrubber back there like I can on the other sides. The back only gets cleaned when I do a w/c. Even with 2 bulbs (T5HO @ 39w each) running only 8 hr/day and raised as high above the rim as I can get them, it's too much light (CO2 has drop checker Yellow-green)...too many bps to count....no ferts.
> 
> I don't know what I'm going to do, but it is getting discouraging. With spring/summer coming garden, mowing (4 acres)...I just don't have the time to baby sit this anymore.
> 
> I hope the fish like algae in their tank. I guess if it gets too disgusting, I'll shut it down and try again this fall.


Astonishing that with such low light you are not able to get rid of the GDA. I'm wondering if you have a lot of organic matter in the tank. I know when I was having a lot of different algae issues with my 55g, it was because there was too much organic matter in the tank. I tend to overfeed my apistos (frozen food) because one fish in particular is really finicky about eating. I deal with that by doing a large (40-50%) wc every week and siphon up any matter on the surface of the substrate at that time. I'm assuming you don't overfeed your fish. Do you clean up dead leaves and siphon up any debris on the surface of the substrate at each wc?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Homer_Simpson said:


> I would leave the GDA alone. When I had an outbreak in my 5 gallon low tech hex, I left it alone and replaced the 13 watt bulb with a 10 watt 6500 K bulb. Talk about only 6 watts, that was only a reduction of 3 watts and amazingly the green dust receded within 3 weeks. This is interesting. You would think that with a c02 limitation that Excel dosing in addition to DIY c02 would make a dfference, but it did not with the 10 gallon. I knew I was taking a risk by replacing the 2 10 watts with 2 13 watt bulbs and figured that DIY c02 combined with Excel Dosing would avoid issues. Obviously, it does not seem enough to ward off Green Dust Algae. Believe it or not but the same tank had crystal clear glass prior to this change.
> 
> This is what that 10 gallon looks like. I just switched the bulbs back to two 10 watts yesterday, so the effects likely will not be seen for 3-4 weeks. Based on my experience with other tanks where this happened and I reduced light intensity, I am sure this will help, but if it does not I plan to inject pressurized c02. There will be no other changes made to this tank other than the change to the 2 10 watt bulbs. Let's see what happens. I will post updated pictures after 4 weeks.


Related to what I did or was doing as referenced above, I have a very interesting and exciting development happening, but it may have little to do with lowering light levels or could a combination of that and something else; a kind of "one two knockout punch" to sort of speak. I added a second variable(which I will disclose at a future date if things progress as well as they look like they are) and in due time, I will share my findings as it is too early to draw definitive conclusions right now. All, I can say is that things look promising but whether that continues is what I am currently monitoring.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

I can't wait to hear what you are up to, Homer. Does it have to do with adding duff beer to the tank? :hihi:


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> I can't wait to hear what you are up to, Homer. Does it have to do with adding duff beer to the tank? :hihi:


LMAO  No, but close. Let's just say something related to this looks like it is drunk and it isn't me. So, it may be a while before the GDA is all gone. But I am holding firm to the 4 week prediction I made. 3 weeks or less and counting. Then I will post the post treatment pictures and disclose the secret. It really isn't a secret though, most people know about this, but there is controversy and differences of opinion, so I had to put the idea to the test since I love controversy. FWIW, so far I am seeing about a 30% reduction/disappearance of GDA. And if things continue at that rate, I see a 100% elimination after 3 weeks or less as a very real possibility.


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## KDahlin (Mar 12, 2007)

KDahlin said:


> Astonishing that with such low light you are not able to get rid of the GDA. I'm wondering if you have a lot of organic matter in the tank. I know when I was having a lot of different algae issues with my 55g, it was because there was too much organic matter in the tank. I tend to overfeed my apistos (frozen food) because one fish in particular is really finicky about eating. I deal with that by doing a large (40-50%) wc every week and siphon up any matter on the surface of the substrate at that time. I'm assuming you don't overfeed your fish. Do you clean up dead leaves and siphon up any debris on the surface of the substrate at each wc?


Just read through this thread and saw in Post #1 that you do vacuum the bottom. Sorry.

Increasing my CO2 has NOT reduced the GDA. I'm going to shorten my photoperiod from 9 hours to 8.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Homer_Simpson said:


> LMAO  No, but close. Let's just say something related to this looks like it is drunk and it isn't me. So, it may be a while before the GDA is all gone. But I am holding firm to the 4 week prediction I made. 3 weeks or less and counting. Then I will post the post treatment pictures and disclose the secret. It really isn't a secret though, most people know about this, but there is controversy and differences of opinion, so I had to put the idea to the test since I love controversy. FWIW, so far I am seeing about a 30% reduction/disappearance of GDA. And if things continue at that rate, I see a 100% elimination after 3 weeks or less as a very real possibility.


Now my curiosity is seriously peaked. What are you doing to those shrimp? Lol.

In both tanks, the GDA is gone. The first tank is still at 3bs and the second tank only at 1bps, but I have been adding Furan to the tank which I believe killed it completely, since it was gone after a week of the dosing. So who knows? I am going to try this experiment again as soon as the fish are better.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Now my curiosity is seriously peaked. What are you doing to those shrimp? Lol.
> 
> In both tanks, the GDA is gone. The first tank is still at 3bs and the second tank only at 1bps, but I have been adding Furan to the tank which I believe killed it completely, since it was gone after a week of the dosing. So who knows? I am going to try this experiment again as soon as the fish are better.


No, the secret weapon is harmless to the shrimp. Today, I noted a 10% further reduction in GDA. I don't want to speak too soon and put my foot in my mouth in case this back fires before the 4 weeks. My lips are sealed but I will go public in due time, one way or another. This has nothing to do with what I am doing, but I wonder if another method to avoid GDA is dry start method. I cannot say 100% as I would have to set up several tanks to test the idea, but I believe that if plants are made to grow well and balance is quickly achieved, it may prevent GDA. I got rid of GDA in my 40 gallon high tech pressurized c02 tank by doing things to push a balance and I believe once that balance was achieved the GDA and all other algae receded and disappeared. With the dry start method, you are jump starting the balance as the plants would be well established by the time you flood the tank and as long as you don't go overboard on the lighting and ensure appropriate c02, it should be easier to maintain that balance. After this GDA issue on this 10 gallon, I am going tear the tank down, prepare another tank using dry start method, flood the tank, transfer the filter in kind, go pressurized co2 and transfer the inhabitants from this tank to the new tank. I am sick and tired of monkeying around with this experimental tank and seeing piece meal progress and one issue after another.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

That is an interesting thought. I have noticed the high tech projects started without water never seem to talk about GDA now that you mention it. I am really dying to know what you are up to. Not even a hint?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> That is an interesting thought. I have noticed the high tech projects started without water never seem to talk about GDA now that you mention it. I am really dying to know what you are up to. Not even a hint?


I just realized that there are only about 2 weeks to go. That will go by fast, so be patient. It looks like about a 35-40% reduction, so it will be close if things continue the way they are. 2 more weeks would mean 70-80% which is shy of the 100% prediction but hey even 70-80% would be pretty good. And I believe that the way this seems to work, if the remaining 20-30% is scraped off or wiped off(it seems to be losing its caked on appearance and appears more lucid and softer), this solution may prevent it from rematerialzing.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Two weeks. Alright.......


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## Diaptincist (Apr 24, 2009)

*Introdusing myself*

hiya everyone!
was looking for something and i came across you guys. nice comunity u got here, I wanna be a part of it ^^


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Diaptincist said:


> hiya everyone!
> was looking for something and i came across you guys. nice comunity u got here, I wanna be a part of it ^^


Hi! Welcome to the Planted Tank! This is a crazy, wonderful place! Feel free to stay forever.  By the way, stop by the lounge and say hello. A lot of people will see your welcome better. 

Sara


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