# Cheap tank construction ideas



## exmt (Apr 11, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Glass is obviously the best... easy to look through, easy to glue together, inert and very, very water resistant. But I'm trying to make things cheaper.


Glass is actually the cheapest option till you get into the 100+ gallon range. But I see where your going.
If you want to make a plywood tank...check out this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=308681
I know you might not be a reefer, but it can be used for fresh or salt anyhow.



Wasserpest said:


> Next thought would be some sort of liner. Acrylic sheets/Plexiglass/Lexan sounds like a good idea. However, it isn't exactly cheap. A 2x4 sheet weights in at $20, and one would need at least 3 (back, bottom, sides) of them. Then the issue of sealing it up, with Silicone not sticking to it so great. I know there are better acrylic glues, but then it would have to be precision work to make it all waterproof.



If your using the acrylic as a liner, you can just use extruded acrylic($20 stuff). If you were making a tank out of acrylic, you would need cell cast acrylic, which runs you up about $70 for a 2x4 sheet.:icon_eek: 



Wasserpest said:


> The easiest would really be some magic paint, which dries to a non-toxic, water resistant coat, while it is cheap and easy to work with.


I'll dig up the perfect RC thread for you...if only I could find it..:wink: 


You might want to consider the outcomes though. A loose nail or a bad seal could lead to a huge mess. I'm not trying to discourage, but is it worth to skimp out on the most important and critical piece of equipment? 

Tony


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

You could use Copon Paint. It is a resin paint they use for boats. You have to add activator like you would with resign.
Not sure how durable it would be though.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

if you want to build a tank check out monsterfishkeepers.com. alot of the people there build their own tanksbecause they are too expensive to have made or they dont make the sizes they need.


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## nik (Mar 7, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> To keep water and plywood apart from each other, ppl start applying epoxy and such. That's great, but I don't want to work with it, because it is smelly, makes you hurry, and good epoxy isn't cheap either.


Don't really agree with you... It's no worse to use than paint. Plus, you can add powder to either color it or make it thicker to get a thicker coat. Not cheap, but buy wrom a boat builder that has bought it in bulk. Smells really no worse than paint. More toxic though, need to use gloves. But one should really use gloves with paint too...

Anyways, just my opinion  I used to build boates with this stuff, so I'm kind of used to working with it...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks for the tips, and the link Tony, that will be some interesting reading.



exmt said:


> Glass is actually the cheapest option till you get into the 100+ gallon range. But I see where your going.


Not sure what glass really costs, but around here a 55 gal tank is about $100, so yeah, with plywood I think I could carve off a few $$.



exmt said:


> If your using the acrylic as a liner, you can just use extruded acrylic($20 stuff). If you were making a tank out of acrylic, you would need cell cast acrylic, which runs you up about $70 for a 2x4 sheet.:icon_eek:


Yep, that's what I meant, just using it as a liner.



exmt said:


> I'll dig up the perfect RC thread for you...if only I could find it..:wink:


Cool, that would be great :biggrin: 



exmt said:


> You might want to consider the outcomes though. A loose nail or a bad seal could lead to a huge mess. I'm not trying to discourage, but is it worth to skimp out on the most important and critical piece of equipment?


See that is the thing, I don't need another tank, and I could probably get an inexpensive one used if I did. But I love a little challenge without spending a load of cash. So it isn't important or critical, but of course before I really start doing anything I want to make sure it doesn't fall apart after it is finished (and no nails!! screws would be my choice )


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

fshfanatic said:


> You could use Copon Paint. It is a resin paint they use for boats. You have to add activator like you would with resign.
> Not sure how durable it would be though.


Thanks, I'll check that out. Wonder if it is available over here. And needs to be non-toxic too (no copper etc).


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

nik said:


> Don't really agree with you... It's no worse to use than paint. Plus, you can add powder to either color it or make it thicker to get a thicker coat. Not cheap, but buy wrom a boat builder that has bought it in bulk. Smells really no worse than paint. More toxic though, need to use gloves. But one should really use gloves with paint too...
> 
> Anyways, just my opinion  I used to build boates with this stuff, so I'm kind of used to working with it...


Really looking for that magic paint :hihi: There must be something.

I was thinking along the lines of varnish that I used to paint some of my furniture, it is pretty tough stuff. Not sure if it survives 24/7 contact with water though.


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## nik (Mar 7, 2006)

Still don't get it, what's the problem with the epoxy? The smell? Oh well, to each his own... 

Anyways, I wouldn't try normal varnish. You would need 5 or 6 coats, at least. It has no ability to fill in gaps, like my beloved epoxy has if you mix it with the powder...  It will survive water, at least for a few years, but it will leak toxics...

Alright, I'll shut up about epoxy now, obviously you want something else...


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

By the time you assemble it I doubt you can save any money at all over a standard 55 gallon tank.

And unless you plan on sealing all plywood surfaces you really should be buying marine plywood. And that alone is going to make it more expensive than a 55 gallon tank.

try www.craigslist.org


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

TheOtherGeoff said:


> if you want to build a tank check out monsterfishkeepers.com. alot of the people there build their own tanksbecause they are too expensive to have made or they dont make the sizes they need.


Interesting site. So much to read, so little time. :icon_frow


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Rex Grigg said:


> By the time you assemble it I doubt you can save any money at all over a standard 55 gallon tank.


If I can't, then I won't. That is why I am posting this, asking questions, getting opinions, doing some research.



Rex Grigg said:


> And unless you plan on sealing all plywood surfaces you really should be buying marine plywood. And that alone is going to make it more expensive than a 55 gallon tank.


Well that throws the marine plywood out then. Sealing is the plan.



Rex Grigg said:


> try www.craigslist.org


Very familiar with this. But like I mentioned earlier, this is not the point of my thread. Don't need a tank. Just wanna play. I know I can buy a tank cheap.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

nik said:


> Still don't get it, what's the problem with the epoxy? The smell? Oh well, to each his own...
> 
> Anyways, I wouldn't try normal varnish. You would need 5 or 6 coats, at least. It has no ability to fill in gaps, like my beloved epoxy has if you mix it with the powder...  It will survive water, at least for a few years, but it will leak toxics...
> 
> Alright, I'll shut up about epoxy now, obviously you want something else...


The last time I checked out Epoxy, it seemed like a @#$% to work with. Now you being a professional boat builder, keep in mind I am not, and so...

Need to read some more, maybe they came up with something less toxic, less critical to exact measuring and mixing, cheaper and more reliable :biggrin:


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## exmt (Apr 11, 2006)

After endless pages of searching, I found the RC thread I was looking for. Just what your doing, plus loads of great information.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=716410

Sean used clear epoxy to seal the wood, then painted it over with shiny blue paint. I like the way the overflow is built into the back of the tank.

Tony


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

So I guess Transparent aluminum is out...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_aluminum

When looking for cheap and huge tanks I think of major aquariums. Most are concrete with large glass (or plastic) windows. They have to be cheap (and permanent) else we would see something else.

And swimming pools:
http://www.lakeranchresort.com/llr 008.jpg


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

exmt said:


> After endless pages of searching, I found the RC thread I was looking for. Just what your doing, plus loads of great information.
> 
> http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=716410
> 
> ...


Thanks for your searching. Nice tank there, lots of ideas for a future large tank.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

BlueRam said:


> So I guess Transparent aluminum is out...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparent_aluminum


Definitely out. Since there are no firearms allowed in my house, there is no need for bulletproof construction. 



BlueRam said:


> When looking for cheap and huge tanks I think of major aquariums. Most are concrete with large glass (or plastic) windows. They have to be cheap (and permanent) else we would see something else.
> 
> And swimming pools:
> http://www.lakeranchresort.com/llr 008.jpg


Yeah, but I never said huge! Cheap, yes. But not huge.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Last night I kept thinking about this. Let's stick to plywood, because it IS cheaper than glass. To seal it there are two ways - something like paint, epoxy, glue, or something like a liner, acrylic/lexan sheets, etc.

Something I recently used to prohibit mousies entry to my kitchen was a spray polyurethane foam, which expands a little and then dries to something resembling a hard sponge.

That made me think... IF that foam is waterproof and sticks well to surfaces, it would be a great option, because it is cheap, easy to work with, flexible, and very light. Plus it insulates well, of course.

The big IF is the water resistance -- anyone with experience care to comment? I figure it will not work... otherwise more ppl would use it. But maybe...


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

If there is a company that works with the epoxies, such as a boat builder in your area. Try contacting them and seeing if they will epoxy your tank, or tank pieces while they are doing one of their other jobs. There is a possibility, I have no idea however, that there is a lot of waste during the application process so they may do it really cheap. You may have a while to wait though. 

Also you could check with some of the big box home improvement stores and see if they have a broken shower surround, many of them are simply large plastic sheets that are glued to the wall. If the door is broken the surround is essentially worthless to them and you should be able to seal the seams with normal silicon.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

That's a good idea with the broken shower plastic. Although I would guess if a door is broken they would just replace it with a new door. Doesn't hurt to ask though.


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## SammyP (Apr 26, 2006)

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_list.php <---- the first bunch of articles are all about plywood tanks. i think most or all of them involve marine epoxy resin and fibeglass and such. i'll search a little harder for more. 
http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/preston-tank.html <-- an ancient one from theKrib.com. that website still has a ton of useful info. 
http://aqualinkwebforum.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5686050522/m/485109024 <--- really nice step by step lots of pictures. he uses fiberglass too. 
http://www.malawicichlidhomepage.com/panis/plywoodtank.htm <--- this guy uses pre-coated plywood so he didnt have to coat the inside with something. 

i've got a very large fish in a 75 gallon and i need a larger tank but i cant afford a glass one. ive been reading alot of these articles about plywood tanks and i personally would go with the epox/resin and fiberglass method. it seems to be safe and lots of people are doing it so it cant be _that_ bad. i cant say from personal experience but, if i do take the plunge and build one of these monsters, i'll definitely post about my experiences here.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Any thoughts, opinions or facts wrt Sprayable Polyurethane Foam?

I am sure there is a simple reason why it wouldn't work.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I guess nobody has tried it yet. So here's what I am going to do: Take a cardboard box, and "coat" it with foam. Fill it with water, let it stand 2 months, and see if the water stays in there.

Also, want to do some trials wrt bonding to various materials - glass, plastic, wood.

Some losely related reading... http://www.monolithic.com/foam/book/


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

A list of opinions:

*the foam is not a glue proper so I would not rely on it holding everything together (sealer might be ok)
*The foam will crush (hammer test)
*As a porous material I would expect it to leak
*Not really good for thin coats on vertical surfaces



Wasserpest said:


> Any thoughts, opinions or facts wrt Sprayable Polyurethane Foam?
> 
> I am sure there is a simple reason why it wouldn't work.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks Blue, that's just what I am looking for!


_*the foam is not a glue proper so I would not rely on it holding everything together (sealer might be ok)_

The plywood will be holding everything together, not the foam. The foam will be pushed evenly against the plywood by the weight of the water (or so I imagine).

_*The foam will crush (hammer test)_

Never aquascape with a hammer!  For bigger rocks, I would use styrofoam pieces as a surface protector.

_*As a porous material I would expect it to leak_

This is the big question. It is closed-pore material, and suitable for outside jobs, and moisture-barrier, and stuff. But yes, how does it hold up to constantly being submerged, that is a good question.

_*Not really good for thin coats on vertical surfaces_

When applying, I would just lay the tank-to-be on its various sides, and apply the foam one surface at a time, let it set, then turn the tank to its next side.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I look forward to seeing the results of your cardboard-box-aquarium. Just make sure you do not leave it in the rain. And see if Scolley can loan a few rubber duckies or that lucky rock...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> I look forward to seeing the results of your cardboard-box-aquarium. Just make sure you do not leave it in the rain. And see if Scolley can loan a few rubber duckies or that lucky rock...


I'm keeping the rock. Sorry. But I _really am_ looking forward to seeing Wasserpest's sacrifice to the gods of cardboard!:hihi:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Don't laugh before you see what I am going to do!!!

:hihi: 

The cardboard is just to easily spot wet spots. Using wood it might take too long until any leaks become visible.

This is so exciting.


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

Count me as a skeptic on the polyurethane foam. 

Have used it may times in composite aircraft construction and sailboard repair.

There are wide differences in performance. the two part marine grade stuff you get at the chandlery far outperforms the hardware store stuff structurally, but will blow your budget.

I know that when vacuum bagging, I can wick epoxy thru cured poly foams

some PVC foams are quite waterproof, but lining a tank with roacel or airex will likely blow your budget.

Find someone who has a truck and wants a spray-in bedliner. have them spray your box when the spray the truck bed. That should work great. the Rhino-liner tank.

otherwise stick to a good laminating epoxy -West Systems or similar. and glass all the seams. mixed small batches on a paper plate with slow hardner (#209)and you will have 45 min working time. Just don't breathe the stuff.

it is gonna be hard to beat the cost of a standard size glass tank of reasonable size.

-jd


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks for your reply. This is why I love this place, there is always someone with answers and suggestions.

I understand that Epoxy is the material of choice for this sort of thing. And maybe I will end up venturing into that area. But (and that is a big BUT) I also understand that a gallon of that stuff is about $100. And that makes it completely unsuitable for my goal here... to create something cheaper than glass.

I am probably re-inventing the wheel and in the end think <that darn Rex was right again> but hey, at least I learned something.

(WP out to stare at $7.98 10gal tanks... oh, boy, can't beat that with DIY)


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Just the glass cut to replace a 10gal metal frame tank runs as high as ~$60!



Wasserpest said:


> (WP out to stare at $7.98 10gal tanks... oh, boy, can't beat that with DIY)


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

BlueRam said:


> Just the glass cut to replace a 10gal metal frame tank runs as high as ~$60!


Sounds a little excessive... maybe depends on how good of a relation to your local glass shop. I wonder what the $7.99 10gal tanks COST those chain pet stores that sell them as leaders.

Anyway... I pulled out the bottle of liquid foam and quickly realized that the even application that I had in mind didn't quite work out in reality. The foam leaves the bottle as a spaghetti sized worm, then expands by a certain factor. This is great for filling small crevices, but not good for application on flat surfaces. You'd need something like another flat sheet so you can fill a space between two sheets. Oh well... back to the drawing board.

Still thinking about paint. Or some sort of plastic liner, and a special cement/glue that bonds it well to both wood and glass.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Soo... after my disappointing result with spaghetti foam, and the realization that there is no simple, non-toxic, water-proof paint, I am looking at Epoxys.

A gallon of this would be $32. Need to do some more reading, but let's just say I use one gallon for my imaginary cheap tank.

So let's do a quick cost analysis, remember the goal is to make a tank that is significantly cheaper than one bought in a store. Let's say this will be a 100+ gallon tank (4x2x2).

- 3/4" plywood: $40
- 1 gal epoxy: $32
- 4x2 glass: $40
- Silicone, screws, etc: $10

So we are up to $122. Not bad, considering that a 100gal glass tank costs ~$300.

What do you think?


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## SammyP (Apr 26, 2006)

i think you're on the right track here. now imagine if the 4x2x2 tank was 8x4x4. I think a glass tank that size will have to be custom made. Increasing the size like that will take a couple more sheets of wood, possibly some extra 2x4s for support, a much more expensive piece of glass, more epoxy, fiberglass and probably be quite a bit more work. I'd estimate at least 5x the cost of building your 100 gallon for a tank nearing 1000 gallons! to actually buy a glass tank that size maybe 20x more expensive than 100 gallon glass tank? i couldnt say for sure, but i think its obvious that the larger the tank you DIY the more money you're saving.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

In the quotes posted above there is a 1700 gal shark tank:
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_1700g_tank_5.php



SammyP said:


> i think you're on the right track here. now imagine if the 4x2x2 tank was 8x4x4. I think a glass tank that size will have to be custom made. Increasing the size like that will take a couple more sheets of wood, possibly some extra 2x4s for support, a much more expensive piece of glass, more epoxy, fiberglass and probably be quite a bit more work. I'd estimate at least 5x the cost of building your 100 gallon for a tank nearing 1000 gallons! to actually buy a glass tank that size maybe 20x more expensive than 100 gallon glass tank? i couldnt say for sure, but i think its obvious that the larger the tank you DIY the more money you're saving.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hehe, 8x4x4, you'd need a scuba suit to scape that one. Maybe 8x2.5x2.5? At some point you not only have to consider the initial investment, but think about ongoing costs to light and filter a beast like that. So <<the larger the tank the more money you are saving>> needs to be looked at from different angles. :hihi: 

Anyway, this is something I see more as a fun project, maybe to gain experience for something large(r) in future.

Any opinions on the choice of epoxy? Does it matter? Do I need food-grade? Think one gallon is enough for a tank that size? Use fiberglass mats or not?


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

Introducing the $PG rule? 



Wasserpest said:


> At some point you not only have to consider the initial investment, but think about ongoing costs to light and filter a beast like that. So <<the larger the tank the more money you are saving>> needs to be looked at from different angles. :hihi:


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## negatived (Apr 14, 2005)

Something else that you could check into is liquid membrane for underneath tile. This product is used under tile in showers. It is usually applied on top of cement board or on top of a mortar bed. I tried to do a quick check to find a cost, and couldn't find anything online, but I did see that some of it can be applied on exterior grade plywood. 

It is usually applied with a notched trowel and then smoothed out with a brush or roller, I think. After it dries, a second coat is applied, and when it dries, the tile is applied in the normal manner. I did a project a few years ago, where we built a waterfall/fountain in the atrium of a business building. We did the tile work and my brother's boss did the work involving the pumps and piping. I had never used the product before, and haven't used it since, but as far as I know, it hasn't leaked. 

Something else to possibly check into is a related product. I was on a job recently where there was a professional tile installer (I've done some work with tile, but I'm not a full time tile installer) working on a shower. Instead of using cement board he had a product that he said was from Germany and was popular in Europe. The board was like foam, but with a waterproof coating. He said that it was totally waterproof, and that the seams and fasteners would then be coated with the liquid membrane to ensure a waterproof seal. I doubt that either of these will be cost effective, but I'm not sure of the pricing. You could probably check by calling any local tile supplier.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

You might revisit acrylic/lexan sheets where you build a plastic tank in a plywood box. The thin stuff might be competitive with epoxy and solves the problem of the front panel as you can just glue it on.



Wasserpest said:


> Last night I kept thinking about this. Let's stick to plywood, because it IS cheaper than glass. To seal it there are two ways - something like paint, epoxy, glue, or something like a liner, acrylic/lexan sheets, etc.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

BlueRam said:


> You might revisit acrylic/lexan sheets where you build a plastic tank in a plywood box. The thin stuff might be competitive with epoxy and solves the problem of the front panel as you can just glue it on.


Yeah, I will keep looking at those too. However, the price of those 1/8 sheets wasn't that convincing. Maybe there are better sources than HD. Need to check online or smaller local places.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

1/8 inch might be excessive. Perhaps something that comes on a roll might be a lot cheeper. Something with the thickness of a coke bottle is what I am thinking. If I rember, I will take a caliper to a coke bottle and find out how thick it actually is latter today.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Height matters a lot*



Wasserpest said:


> Hehe, 8x4x4, you'd need a scuba suit to scape that one. Maybe 8x2.5x2.5?


I just want to pitch in and say that the length dimension (8' above), is not a big deal. Neither is the width (2.5'). But the height (2.5') is the killer dimension, no matter what you make this out of. You have to concern yourself with both leaks at the edges, and the ability of the side (not the edges) to take that much force.

I had some rather dramatic examples of how much this height dimension matters with some of the leaks I encountered in building my glass 75 - a tank only 22" high. A leak at the bottom would often not show more than a trickle with it half full. But by 3/4 full, that same leak would be fairly well squirting out. Fill it up all the way, and I'd have a regular geyser squirting out the bottom of my tank. A few inches matters. A foot makes a huge difference.

There is a reason why you don't see many tanks more than 30" high. And considering 30" in height, I suspect you are reaching the practical limit of what you are going to be able to biuld without some serious engineering to contain that monstrous pressure. Personally, I would not dream of building anything over 24" high myself.

So if you build something 2.5' high, please have the camera ready when you start to fill it up.:hihi: Especially when you get past the 15" mark.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

jgc said:


> 1/8 inch might be excessive. Perhaps something that comes on a roll might be a lot cheeper. Something with the thickness of a coke bottle is what I am thinking. If I rember, I will take a caliper to a coke bottle and find out how thick it actually is latter today.


But... will that hold up over time without cracking? I am convincing myself that epoxy isn't that bad, thanks Nik! .

Still thinking about the foam though. If there was any way to spread it out evenly... I did some trials and it adheres very well to everything, incl paper, glass and plastics.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

scolley said:


> I just want to pitch in and say that the length dimension (8' above), is not a big deal. Neither is the width (2.5'). But the height (2.5') is the killer dimension, no matter what you make this out of. You have to concern yourself with both leaks at the edges, and the ability of the side (not the edges) to take that much force.
> 
> I had some rather dramatic examples of how much this height dimension matters with some of the leaks I encountered in building my glass 75 - a tank only 22" high. A leak at the bottom would often not show more than a trickle with it half full. But by 3/4 full, that same leak would be fairly well squirting out. Fill it up all the way, and I'd have a regular geyser squirting out the bottom of my tank. A few inches matters. A foot makes a huge difference.
> 
> ...


This is one reason why I would never build an all-glass tank by myself. The fear of a seam slowly, slowly then faster and faster bursting.

Using wood, some simple measures allow you to go much beyond 2.5ft. You really need to read this: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_1700g_tank_1.php


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

The marine stuff is two part foam and might give you a chance to coat although you better work fast. The foam is REALLY soft though. I think you are going to get seepage and puncture wounds. There are better places than HD to get partial sheets of plastic. If you need a glass front panel you might have to be creative but with plastic you could just fill the seams with epoxy.



Wasserpest said:


> Still thinking about the foam though.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Using wood, some simple measures allow you to go much beyond 2.5ft. You really need to read this: http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_1700g_tank_1.php


That's a great article WP. But I think it reinforces my point... if you want to go much beyond 2" or so, you are going to need some serious engineering.

That tank in the link was one awesome construction project! One with lots of material holding it together, very well engineered, based on tested and refined GARF plans. So that's all I wanted to point out really... _going deep at all means you've got some very serious pressure considerations that will have to be contended with and engineered in_ in order to work.

Though I do hope you succeed!:thumbsup: 

(And take pictures.:icon_wink )


Also - I think the concept of building a frame with the glass/plexiglass on the inside pressing out onto a gasket is brilliant. Or maybe just obvious to some, but I'm impressed.


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## SammyP (Apr 26, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Hehe, 8x4x4, you'd need a scuba suit to scape that one. Maybe 8x2.5x2.5? At some point you not only have to consider the initial investment, but think about ongoing costs to light and filter a beast like that. So <<the larger the tank the more money you are saving>> needs to be looked at from different angles. :hihi:


i understand your point but thats like comparing apples to oranges. whatever size tank you build it will always need the same lighting and filtration as its commercially built counterpart. I wasnt trying to say "go ahead and build the biggest tank you can", i was trying to say that this type of project gets more and more fiscal the larger size tank you *need*.


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## jimjim (Nov 9, 2003)

Wasserpest; If you're looking for a cheap paint that doesn't hurt fish buy truck bed liner from Wally World. It runs about $40 a gal. I used it to paint playwood vats to raise plants and fish. One downside, it only comes in black but looks good after alge starts growing on it. I build a fake rock background for a 180gm and its looking good after a month or so of alge growth....Jim


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Wow, gotta check that out! I looked into the Rhino Liners as suggested by windsurfer. Good stuff, but maybe not cost effective. Same for the shower stuff suggested by negatived.

Didn't know the truck liner stuff was available by the gallon! Do you know what it is made out of? Is it a two part deal? Remember the brand? Do you have to apply several layers for good waterproofing?


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## jimjim (Nov 9, 2003)

*Truck liner paint*

Wasserpest, I used just one thick coat over the plywood, BUT!!! I used good playwood (3/4" AC grade) and glued (Consruction) and screwed (1 1/4" deck type) my vats together. Each vat was 8'-0" x 2'-0" x 8". I built about 8 total and did'nt have a single leak. I kept them going for a couple of years before selling the whole setup. Only two leaked after moving them and the racks across town....Jim, PS I'll post the setup drawings here if anyones interested. They each held 8 10 gal tanks and 7 15 gal tanks and took up an 8' x 2' footprint.


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## SammyP (Apr 26, 2006)

webcrawling for waterproofing solutions while bored at work...

http://www.hytechsales.com/prod50.html <- $24/gallon seems like more of a water repellant not sure if it will hold water. cleans up with soap and water? i think it would leech toxins into the water over time since its water soluble when its liquid. worth a look though.

http://www.ruberoid.ie/ruberoid32.htm <-- this just hit me all of a sudden. this is like the stuff that we used to use to seal up leaks in swimming pools without draining them. It a type of cement that actually can harden and set underwater. no idea about toxicity though. you mix the powder with water, only enough so that you can apply it before it dries because once its hard, its stuck like that forever. i cant believe i didnt think of this earlier *smacks forehead* just google 'waterplug' for more of the same.

http://www.ecosafetyproducts.com/SafeCoat-DynoSeal-Waterproof-Vapor-Proof-Coating-p/es-afm-31363.htm <-- $179/5 gallon expensive. says can be used on pools saunas showers tubs. seems very non-toxic. i think this is a definite must check out. http://www.ecosafetyproducts.com/Specialty-Sealers-s/34.htm

http://www.crommelin.com.au/waterproofing.php <-- more sealers. au means austrailia though right? 

http://www.hares.net/boat/waterproofing.htm <-- this short article is about DIY wood waterproofing using polyester resin. pretty good info, he even says you can use cellophane if you get no bubbles.

http://www.modernplastics.com/plasticscarry.htm <--- did a search for 'polyethylene sheet' theres probably alot of stuff there that could be useful

boss is calling me.. that last link has quite alot of possibility.. i hope this helped somewhat


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I looked at the truck liner stuff, and while I was very excited, it failed one test - it isn't cheap. $42 for a gallon.

http://www.duplicolor.com/products/truckbed.html

Although, if you need only one layer vs epoxy layer-sanding-layer-sanding-layer-sanding etc it might still be better.

So what you constructed held water, or tanks? Is it absolutely fish-and-shrimp-safe once cured?

EDIT: And yes please post your setup drawings, maybe helps me to understand better what you were doing. :smile:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Lots of info Sammy, thank you. Some of that applies to waterproofing wood, not for submerged use but more towards the line of weatherproofing. 

My boss is nagging too, so I will check them links out in detail later. Thanks though!


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## jimjim (Nov 9, 2003)

*Plant and tank rack*

Wasserpest; Heres the plans for the rack and vats. They're not the greatest but it should do. If you put them in Windows pic viewer you can make them bigger...The top row held 8 10 gal tanks with the ends towards you the next row down held 7 15 gal tanks end towards yo the last two held the vats. I built two of them for my garage and raised many Lake Tanganykan cichlids and tons of plants,,,Jim


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## Saints1804 (Oct 27, 2005)

If your gonna go with a tank large enough just put it together then take it to a place that does spray in bedliner and have them spray it. We took it down there on a trailer and they did the whole thing. Take was around 500 gallons with just glass in the front that was sealed with silicone.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Saints, how much did you pay for applying the liner?


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

most truck bed liner material is heavily filled epoxy, although there are a couple that are a linear polyurethane. Don't even think about using linear polyurethanes (you will have a difficult time buying this type).

Another source of good quality filled epoxies similar to the truck bed liners is garage floor paint. This has a lower solids content, so it will take a couple of coats... may not be any cheaper than the bed liner (or good marine grade epoxies)

Siliconized rubber used for pool repairs sounds interesting. not sure how long that will last.

the bondo stuff you listed is not epoxy, it is a MEK catalized polyester resin. very, very stinky, but not all that toxic and should last a long time. you will need to use fiberglass with this otherwise it will crack. polyester is pretty brittle.

for easier handling polyester resin, check out fiberglass hawaii laminating resin

polyester resin is sticky stuff that requires practice and good good technique to get good results. pour on surface and spread around with a plastic putty knife.

I much prefer working with laminating epoxy, even if it does mean I have to wear a respirator. simple way to do this is:

spray surface with 3m 77 spray adhesive.
tack fiberflass cloth to surface (spray adhesive hold it in place)
mix epoxy, and apply with foam roller, use small cheap trim rollers and throw away after use
sand lightly to remove amine blush between coats
do about 5 coats.

for epoxies, check out Aerospace Composite Products
http://www.acp-composites.com/acp-ez.htm
Wicks aircraft supply
http://www.wicksaircraft.com/catalog/product_cat.php/subid=22/index.html
West Systems (my favorite epoxy)
http://www.westsystem.com/

-jd


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Thanks for your ideas jd. Still looking for that cheap, fish-save, long term waterproof seal.

Not sure what the duplicolor stuff is made from, I thought all epoxy based systems would require two parts? This is just one bottle. According to jimjim it is fish-safe, and if only one coat is required for a long-lasting waterproof seal, then this puts it way up on top of the things I am considering.

I will check out garage floor paint (would it be fish-safe?) and siliconized rubber (cost and durability?).

GARF doesn't recommend polyester based epoxy, if I read that right:



> The only sealer/coating that is qualified for use in an aquarium is a TWO PART EPOXY FOR POTABLE WATER TANKS. This coating is used to seal the interior of several thousand gallon community drinking water tanks, as a coating for holding tanks in fish farms and as a liner for large public aquariums. These coatings are NSF 61/USDA/ANSI/AWWA and FDA certified and approved. Further, epoxy coatings are highly resistant to salts and corrosion and are recommended for marine use.
> Some brand name coatings that can be used are:
> 
> ----- sherwin williams brand "Epoxide HS Tank Lining"-----
> ...


(interestingly, I checked with a local sherwin williams store and they had no CLUE, they didn't even know what epoxy was, and when I told them what I was going to do they admitted that they were more into house painting )

Again, thanks for the help and input.


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

Polyester resin is not an epoxy.

fully cured polyester and vinylester resins are quite inert and have been widely used for water storage tanks. Is is used less these days due the the availabllity of large blow-moulded polypropylene and polyethylene tanks. Just make sure it is fully cured (weeks at room temp) and washed.

there are lots of ways to cure epoxies. two-part formulations are just one way that is easy and gives long shelf life. 

a quart kit of west systems only costs ~$35 and will cover a very large area if prepared right. this is a good, cheap epoxy. you certainly shouldn't need a gallon unless you are building a room-sized tank.

I looked at a couple other protective coatings and it appears that there are now some oil-based enamels being marketed as truck bed liners, garage floor coatings, and marine coatings. this is likely what your $42 wal mart truckbedliner is. -I don't have any experience with any of these, so I don't know how long they will last.

-jd


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## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

after the parts and labor would it not be cheaper just to purchase a tank. Unless you need a very large or custom shape?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

windsurfer said:


> a quart kit of west systems only costs ~$35 and will cover a very large area if prepared right. this is a good, cheap epoxy. you certainly shouldn't need a gallon unless you are building a room-sized tank.
> 
> -jd


Plus $10 for the pumps, plus shipping... not too bad.

Is it possible to tint this stuff, so instead of amber the final color is dark blue or black?


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Yes you can tint epoxy.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

dschmeh said:


> after the parts and labor would it not be cheaper just to purchase a tank. Unless you need a very large or custom shape?


Very important point here Dave. The purpose of this thread... find out if it is possible to do cheaper or not. If not, I will scrap the whole project even before I spend a dime. Like I said earlier, I am not looking for a tank, just for a hopefully interesting and maybe rewarding project.

My baselines are $100 for a 55gal, and $300 for a 100gal tank. If I can make a ~100gal tank for about $150, I would like to attempt this as a little project for long Winter nights. I do not count labor. It would be a one person project (me) and since this is a hobby, I don't consider it billable time.

I added things up earlier, and got $122 so far. Adding shipping and tax and stuff, still under $150.

If there is anything cheaper and easier to deal with than epoxy, like the truck liner, or some kind of plastic/acrylic/lexan liner, let's hear it. Gee, I am open to consider laminate flooring, if it seems like it could work.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

Ahh, Methyl Ethyl Ketone one of they most foul products ever created by humans. Ok, maybe not that bad, but one hell of a solvent - I had a freind get cancer while using that stuff (course he was working for a company that was worked with lead based paints. The MEK would disolve the paint, but would also leach into his skin with the disolved lead... He was in his early 20's when he went through chemo. MEK is not a carcinogen, but it will disolve some of them and transport them quite easily.

I have used both Epoxy and poly resin in the past. I used 2 part epoxy while repairing a (fiber)glass kayak a long time ago. Found out the hard way what all that stuff can disolve - man it burned (after it melted through my gloves...). I used polyresin and glass cloth on my dog's truck box - no real problems there (held up fairly well, but have retired it since). 

I do not recall why, but rember reading that epoxy is much better for boats (kayaks), perhaps because of the way it sets up (stays slighly more flexible than poly resin maybe). Anyway, there are also strengh/weight issues involved in those boats, so maybe I am rembering the wrong reasons.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

How does something like this compare to "West Systems":

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...ssPageName=MERCOSI_VI_ROSI_PR4_PCN_BIX_Stores

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...PageName=MERC_VIC_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT

$17 for a quart....


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

Not familiar with that particular brand of epoxy. A few parameters make it appear to be a 'hot' mix more for rapid production than for mechanical or chemical properties:

15 min gel time. this is a fast cure -good if you are clamping something simple and know exactly what you are doing, but bad is you are unfamiliar with the process (or are trying to make light parts). note, you will likely get less working time than the gel time unless you know all the tricks to extend the working time.(mix and use as thin layer on a paper plate to keep temperature down)

160degC peak exotherm -gets hot when it cures, this is consistant with the short working time

2:1 mix, again consistant with an epoxy optimized for fast cure, not good mechanical or chemical properties. (most of those are 5:1 -10:1 mix)

keep looking for something with a longer gel time -45-60min to make things easier. ask the mfg about marine applications to be sure it is OK to be constantly submerged. 

I have never had a problem with epoxy attacking gloves. many a composite airplane has been built using only 'liquid glove' barrier cream as protection. The epoxy itself is not all that dangerous, it is the amines which come off as it cures that are the issue, primarily autoimmune response. -like a severe allergy attack. many have worked with epoxy for years using no protection without any problems then one day they become sensitized and are unable to even enter a room where epoxy is curing without getting a reaction. 

MEK is a very benign solvent -read the MSDS. major health risk is it's ablility to transmit the stuff dissolved in it (like lead pigmented paint) thru both gloves and skin or lungs.

Polyester and vinylester resin is normally catalized with MEKP (methyl ethyl keytone peroxide). very nasty stuff, but only used a couple of drops to a batch.


-jd


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

and don't bother buying the pumps if occasional use, they are a royal pain to clean and keep working. mix using disposible syringes or weigh on the scale you use to weigh your fertz.

if there is a boat supply place local, you can buy marine epoxy local and save shipping and hazmat charges.even in Santa Barbara there is several places I can buy epoxy cheaper locally than I can order it.

-jd


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

I am pretty sure it was 2 part, but it was over 10 years ago. I was head first inside a boat (quite a tight fit) to the waist, using a breather hose and goggles when whatever it was ate throught the plastic cup I had mixed it in. I was soaking and applying fiberglass tape to a crack in the seam between the top and bottom halves of the boat. Perhaps the problem came beteen a reaction between the plastic cup and the epoxy, but whatever it was ate through the latex gloves in a few seconds (I thought I was holding a cup of epoxy, but the cup dissapeared). After that, have always mixed in an coke can and never had any other issues (and am more carefull about getting it on my hands). Anyway, still own the boat, one of my favorite kayaks - the patch is still holding great.

perhaps I am overly paraniod, just knew a 18 year old kid who learned about mixing MEK and lead based paint the hard way (fwiw, chemo worked - I knew him when he was 25). That said, their company when through barrels of MEK, not the few drops poly resin uses as catalist.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

When I have used fiberglass and resign I mixed the stuff in thick paper mixing buckets similar to the ones you get KFC chicken in.


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

mixed in a plastic cup, epoxy can exotherm and melt the plastic, foam cups are worse because the insulate. the problem here is heat, not chemistry. that is the reason for the suggestions to mix small batches and mix on a paper plate -large surface area to dissapate the heat. I have had ~1/4 foam coffee cup of epoxy exotherm and melt the cup. epoxy gives off heat as it cures.

if you were using a thinned epoxy, that is thinned by addition of solvent, they are frequently thinned using MEK. MEK will quickly attack latex gloves and plastic cups. this is from the thinner, not from the epoxy. if using thinned epoxy, use appropriate gloves, tritonic or neo -check the MSDS and chemical compatability charts. (if at home, rubber dishwashing gloves are likely a reasonable substitute)

latex gloves are fine with unthinned epoxy

for marine use, you should probably be using an unthinned low viscosity laminating epoxy. thinning may be useful if you want it to soak into wood, but it will result in a weaker bond because there will be voids in the spaces where the solvent evaporated off after the epoxy gelled. in extreme cases, the solvent can become encapsulated in the epoxy and attack something years later when someone grinds thru the material an releases it.

MEK and MEKP are not the same thing. MEKP is frequently used to catalize polyester and vinylester resins.

-jd


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

windsurfer said:


> Not familiar with that particular brand of epoxy. A few parameters make it appear to be a 'hot' mix more for rapid production than for mechanical or chemical properties:
> 
> 15 min gel time. this is a fast cure -good if you are clamping something simple and know exactly what you are doing, but bad is you are unfamiliar with the process (or are trying to make light parts). note, you will likely get less working time than the gel time unless you know all the tricks to extend the working time.(mix and use as thin layer on a paper plate to keep temperature down)
> 
> ...


The second link there points to one with a longer gel time, they mention 60 minutes.

But good point on the local check... will do that.


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## windsurfer (Mar 8, 2005)

Just noticed you are in Monterey. I believe you have a fiberglass hawaii local to you -maybe up in Santa Cruz. The shop used to be called Monterey Bay Fiberglass -I used to order from there when I lived further south....

they mainly support the surfboard industry.

-jd


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I really appreciate all the time you guys spend sharing your knowledge!

In the meantime, I thought a little more about this, still considering just lining the whole thing with acrylic sheets. One issue will be how to waterproof the glass-acrylic connecting sides.

Then I came across this: http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/category.php?bid=2&

What do you think about the Ultra Glo polymer coating. Good price there... seems like 16oz would go a long way. Any thoughts on suitability for our purposes? I like the price, and the fact that you can pour it (rather than paint-sand-paint-sand-paint and so on until you breath sufficient fumes and die).


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

From the website:

ULTRA-GLO IS NOT RECOMMENDED FOR EXTERIOR USE. 

I'd say line a plywood box with thin acrylic sheeting, and come up with a gasket type seal for the front pane.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Not recommended for exterior use... but maybe because it turns yellow?

I asked them for some info via email... we'll see if they answer (Got an auto-response already, good sign).

They also sell various acrylic sheets for better prices than HD, so this is still a good option. What do you have in mind for a gasket? Silicone (which doesn't adhere well to acrylic)?

Yet another option would be to go all acrylic and use a thicker acrylic sheet for the front glass. Tap sells a 2x4 1/4" "Acrylic sheet plus clear" for - yikes - $80. And 1/4" is probably not even thick enough to resist 2' of water column.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Got a reply from TAP:



> Ultra-Glo is made for its decorative properties not its physical properties. A better choice would be;
> http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=30&
> Dave


Thanks Dave, I will check out the Coat-It.

One thing that made me wonder wrt acrylic sheets -- they seem to shrink and expand with changing temperatures. I wonder if that could have any negative effect on the bonds. Even though mostly protected and insulated by wood, this tank would be in an area of temps of 30 - 100F, so excessive expansion might be an issue.

To prevent that, another option would be to use glass as a liner. I need to inquire about cost of 2x4 sheets in various thicknesses. Can't be that much... Something like door mirrors might even work, I've seen them for less than $10, although they are not quite 2' wide.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

I don't think thermal expansion would be much of an issue with any indoor aquarium because the water help hold the aquarium at a constant temperature, not to mention most of us are not very comfortable in a home with very large temperature extremes. Most thermal expansion coeficients for rigid solid materials are measured in micro-inches per inch per degree. So there really isn't much movement to streatch the seals unless you are talking about 100ft long tanks.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

vidiots said:


> not to mention most of us are not very comfortable in a home with very large temperature extremes.


True that! But like I said, this tank will be in a place (garage) with potentially high temp fluctuations, cold at night, hot in the afternoon. 

You know, how they recommend to leave a little space for extension when installing acrylic windows? Maybe not an issue, considering that there are many acrylic tanks incl big ones.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> True that! But like I said, this tank will be in a place (garage) with potentially high temp fluctuations, cold at night, hot in the afternoon.
> 
> You know, how they recommend to leave a little space for extension when installing acrylic windows? Maybe not an issue, considering that there are many acrylic tanks incl big ones.


Most acrylic tanks are all one piece and should all expand and contract as a single unit without problem.

Where I would expect to find a problem would be with tight fit windows enclosed in a wooden frame. I would imagine that the higher insulating properties in wood compared to acrylic would make the wood slower to expand and contract with temperature. I'm guessing at the rate of expansion for acrylic, but for example say it is 300 microinches per degree per inch, and say you have a 36" window tightly fitting in a wood frame and the temperature increases 10 degrees. The acrylic would expand roughly 0.1 inch and the wood would have expanded at a slower speed than that, just guessing say 0.05 inch. In this example the window would have grown with respect to the wood almost a 1/16" but didn't have room to to do so and would probably bend or crack.

In the example you gave with the aquarium and putting an internal layer of acrylic. The acrylic would all expand together like a single unit so the seals would see very little movement with respect of one pane to another. 

The part to worry about would be the varying pressure than your wooded frame would be putting on the acrylic. However I think this would be dampend considerably by the water temperature helping to hold things at a constant stable temp and the wood would help insulate the tank from the outside temp swings. Water is a very good thermal conductor, acrylic is an ok thermal conductor and wood is a poor thermal conductor.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Just wanted to bring this thread to a closure. It would have been a fun project, but with the economics of scale being as they are, I will not save money over a commercial glass tank, unless we are going up in size.

The dealbreaker was really the cost of a 1/2" sheet of glass.

With the 1 Dollar a Gallon sale, I will upgrade my old scratched 43 gal tank in the garage with a brand-new, shiny 55gal tank, build a cheap stand for it, and forget about Epoxy and acrylic lined plywood constructions until one day there is a bigger space that needs to be filled. :redface: 

Thanks for sharing all the good info.


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