# Signs of magnesium deficiency?



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If you suspect a magnesium deficiency you can easily test for it by adding around 5-10 ppm of magnesium to the water and watching the plants to see if they grow better and more healthy. That is far better than trying to determine the need for magnesium by looking at plants that aren't doing well.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

I don't have any on hand and would rather avoid ordering any unless necessary. Here's my problem:









Note the color of the detached leaf (one of two today) in comparison to the top of the same plant below. Also note the detached Cyperus blade - vals die quickly in here and Cyperus is barely holding its own.

This is a modified EI-dosed tank:
KNO3 - 3x 1/4 tsp
KH2PO4 - 3x 1/16 tsp
K2SO4 - 3x 1/16 tsp
CSM+B - 3x 1/16 tsp
DC - light green, maxed out

I also use root tabs and eco-complete, which should be fully charged. I don't dose GH Booster since tap is 8-9 dGH; theoretically a magnesium deficiency is a possibility.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Rainer said:


> I don't have any on hand and would rather avoid ordering any unless necessary. Here's my problem:
> 
> View attachment 54456
> 
> ...


looking at that plant it rather looks like Fe deficiency. Mg deficiency looks similar but it start from the bottom of the plant and goes up, bottom leaves of that plant are green, so no Mg deficiency in your case.

try increasing the Fe


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

That's a transplanted hygro that had beautiful leaves mottled red and green when acquired. The lower leaves have darkened and are falling off like the one floating in the corner. One still attached can be seen on the right side.

The new growth seen in the center is a lighter green.


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## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

Rainer said:


> I don't have any on hand and would rather avoid ordering any unless necessary.


You do not need to order MgSO4 just go buy some epsom salts for a couple bucks from the local drug store/grocery store.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

High GH out of the tap is usually suggestive that there are both Ca and Mg, but not always! 
Easiest thing to do: Add some Epsom salt to the tank, see if the plants improve.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm picking up some today and assuming it should be dosed weekly, like GH Booster, at the dose Hoppy suggested.

Thanks!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Rainer said:


> I'm picking up some today and assuming it should be dosed weekly, like GH Booster, at the dose Hoppy suggested.
> 
> Thanks!


The last word I read on dosing magnesium is to dose 3 times as much as you are dosing CSM+B - if you dose 1/4 tsp of CSM+B, dose 3/4 tsp of magnesium sulfate. If you dose the CSM+B 3X per week, also dose the MgSO4 at the same time.

I jotted this on a scratch pad when I read it - I think it was from Plantbrain.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Loss of leaves was my issue when I had a Mg deficiency. My crypts would just start losing leaves one by one. 

Mg works a bit like magic. You can start seeing improvement in the affected plants almost overnight. 

Hoppy's dosing notes sound correct.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

We'll see how it goes but I think we're on the right track. Thanks for all the assistance especially on the dosing.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Lost several more hygro leaves during WC today, mostly from mid-level. One in particular was both curved downward and strongly cupped and the edges were discolored.

Tomorrow is Day 2 of Mg dosing.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

how is it going man?


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Found another detached hygro leaf, though it could have trapped during the WC on Sunday. Tomorrow is the third dose.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

What is the GH doing when you dose? 

If it is just going up, then the plants are not using much of the added Mg. Problem may be something else. 

If it goes up when you dose, then drops a bit over the next few days then the plants are using some of it. You are on the right track with adding Mg.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Hoppy said:


> The last word I read on dosing magnesium is to dose 3 times as much as you are dosing CSM+B - if you dose 1/4 tsp of CSM+B, dose 3/4 tsp of magnesium sulfate. If you dose the CSM+B 3X per week, also dose the MgSO4 at the same time.
> 
> I jotted this on a scratch pad when I read it - I think it was from Plantbrain.


Thank's for this Hoppy.
According to local water report,my tapwater is mostly calcium with very little magnesium.
I have it seem's acccidentally been adding the epsom salt at correct dosage according to now healthy plant 's, which happen's to be what has been suggested.
Hardness test doesn't distinguish between CA,magnesium,and I knew I was adding enough FE.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Diana said:


> What is the GH doing when you dose?
> 
> If it is just going up, then the plants are not using much of the added Mg. Problem may be something else.
> 
> If it goes up when you dose, then drops a bit over the next few days then the plants are using some of it. You are on the right track with adding Mg.


It was 8 on Sunday after the WC and before any dosing. The only Mg dosing since was 3/16 tsp on Monday. Today's dGH is 9, prior to the next Mg dose. I will monitor daily to see how that changes.

I will post a better pic of the deficiency damage tonight.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Color's a little weird b/c only the Flora bulb is on in this pic but you can still see the contrast between new growth and the discolored, cupped, and curled older leaves farther down. Note the missing leaves below that.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

your other plants are also loosing leaves, i think this looks like more of flow circulation issue. i had leaves keep on dropping till i fix the flow issue.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Yes, the Ludwigia's suffering too. This tank had a lily pipe flowing laterally across the front from the left of this pic. The return is just out of sight at the bottom left. I switched out the lily pipe for a spray bar on Sunday.

Edit to add: flow from the lily pipe was high enough to damage/disrupt e. Vesuvius next to the glass on the far side of the tank. I turned it down a bit but that was after these symptoms had already manifested.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Mg dosing increased dGH from 8 to 9 between last Sunday and Wednesday. It stayed at 9 on Thursday and Friday, then spiked to 11 on Sunday. Those readings were taken pre-dosing; Mg was dosed on MWF.

Small patch of hygro rosanervig near the large hygro in the pic has largely uprooted and is looking tattered. 

I'd guess there is some need for Mg but not the full dose. As for water circulation, this is a 29g tank, only 12" thick, with an Eheim 2217 rippling the surface. Could it still be an issue?


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

The experiment is a failure.

I reduced Mg dosing this week to 1/3 of the suggested amount but GH rose to 10 from 8 and a few more leaves were lost.

I'm having algae issues after replacing the old bulbs so I'm upping the CO2 past the level where shrimp were symptomatic earlier and treating this as a fish-only tank until the algae issue is resolved.

Any thoughts?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

What light fixture are you using on that 29 gallon tank?


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Catalina 2x T5HO, 80 mmol if I read your latest chart correctly.

There's also a partial, mobile cover of floaters, some of which are showing signs of damage.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Poor growth, slowed rate of growth, most of the energy is trying to get to the surface. Once there, = ample cO2.

This is all some species can do, they sacrifice everything to break the surface/get more light so they can use up the CO2 faster than the other plants, reducing competition.

If you have ample CO2 and good growth, then it's worthwhile to keep those lower leaves. Sword plants get holes, java fern leaves turn black, Hygros lose lower leaves etc.

My plants keep their leaves all the way down.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The light is probably 15-16 inches from the substrate, so a two bulb T5HO by Catalina is very likely to be giving you around 100 micromols of PAR, which is high light, requiring lots of CO2 to meet the plants needs, along with non-limiting fertilizing per http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=21944

Since adding some magnesium didn't cause the plants to grow better, you are not likely to have a magnesium deficiency. But, most high light tanks that have a deficiency are short on CO2. Just because the drop checker shows green doesn't mean you have enough CO2. Try slightly increasing the bubble rate, and watching the plants and fish to see what effect it has. If you haven't done so, make sure your water surface is rippled over the whole surface, and that you have good water circulation throughout the tank, so CO2 can reach all of the plants. If you see any improvement in the plants, and the fish aren't distressed, do another slight increase in bubble rate, and repeat. Just be sure to stay at each CO2 bubble rate for a couple of days or more, so you can see improvements if there are any.

If you raise that light 6 inches or so that will reduce the PAR considerably, making it a lot easier to provide enough CO2 for the plants.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Update - I've cranked up the CO2 and seen improvements in some areas. BBA isn't expanding and the hygro has stopped dropping leaves.

On the other hand, there's a lot of dust algae on the MM and some on the large hygro leaves. I think some of the mid-range hygro leaves may be cupping too.

Ferts are per EI, except I am keeping KNO3 in the 20-40 ppm range and adding additional liquid K to compensate.



Hoppy said:


> If you haven't done so, make sure your water surface is rippled over the whole surface, and that you have good water circulation throughout the tank, so CO2 can reach all of the plants.


How literally do you mean that, Hoppy? I had the spray bar aimed horizontally and had to remove the RRF, which were cascading down to the substrate. There was nice current through the lower levels except for one corner. I increased the flow and CO2 but even so, only half the tank was rippling; the rest was circulating but not rippling.

Today I aimed the spray bar on a diagonal. Now other floaters are riding the waterfall, there's a boil the length of the spray bar, but still no ripples on the right third of the tank.

I'm concerned I may have too much flow.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

The newly arrived PO4 test indicates 10+ ppm - related to any of this?


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Leaves dying and falling off rather quickly is indicative of phosphorus deficiency, which is what you appear to have. You may also have iron and or nitrate deficiency given the yellow tint of the new leaves coming in. 

Magnesium deficiency shows up as curling leaves and the leaves will have very dark veining.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rainer said:


> The newly arrived PO4 test indicates 10+ ppm - related to any of this?


I'd not even bother with that, focus on reducing light intensity and upping CO2, perhaps adjust the surface movement, the lily pipes are tough to control the surface flow IME.....evaporation changes the degassing and rippling unless you tend it often.

So that is also a CO2 issue.
Hygros and Ludwigia's are easy plants to grow......if they ar elosign leaves, then you likely have a light/CO2 issue.

even over a massive nutrient range, they will keep their leaves, but if you mess with light/CO2.....well...........


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

I've switched out for a spray bar, have a surface boil over a third of the tank, and have cranked the CO2 to match. I've added some ghost shrimp to act as guinea pigs - so far they're okay with it.

Brown dust algae is still an issue with the siamensis and HM/MU, but may be tapering off. I thought the high levels of PO4 might be involved.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Here's a link to a aquarium-plants-deficiency/ make note in the differences in old or new growth problems.

Your problem is definately with new growth so if that palnt is a super fast grower I would say a nitrogen problem, if it's a slow grower I would say Fe, good luck.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

Thanks for the link. Interesting that K and Fe overdoses can resemble Ca deficiency. This is looking more and more like CO2 deficiency and overdoses of other nutrients, including Fe, which is in CSM+B. Ca is not, IIRC.

The affected plants were fast growers - siamensis and ludwigia as above, plus stunted sunset - but upgrading to a test kit revealed NO3 in the 80-160 ppm range.

Boosting the flow and CO2 seem to have done the trick, with the possible exception of brown dust algae. Burning off the excess PO4 may take care of that if it isn't already tapering off.

80-160 ppm of NO3 and 10+ ppm of PO4 in an EI tank with standard WCs...surprising. The only times the WCs were delayed were also when dosing and light had been commensurately reduced.

Could Eco-Complete have anything to do with it?


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