# Could this be something other than Ich?



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

There is a large white cyst/theront on the tail of a single Cardinal Tetra, in a school of 27. And I believe that there may be a very small cyst on another Cardinal Tetra. I have added the best pics that I could take.

The cyst appeared 2 weeks ago, and I treated with Mardel QuICK Cure (Formalin, Malachite Green) for 3 days, as per the instructions. I also raised the temperature to about 82 degrees 2 weeks ago (although I now believe that this may not be high enough). As far as I can tell, there was no change in appearance of the cysts during treatment, and for the week since treatment.

The fish do not seem distressed; and no one else has developed additional cysts.

Is it possible that I have misdiagnosed this fish?

Thanks in advance for any assistance that you can offer.


----------



## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Cant really tell from the photos. But if there is no visual change in 2 weeks chances are its not ich. You're right in that 82 degrees would not be warm enough to treat the ich; but you used meds too so not much of an issue. But if it was ich it would either have been eradicated by the meds; or it would be everywhere on every fish by now. It very well could simply be a cyst and/or something like a pimple. Sometimes this is absolutely nothing to worry about.....and other times it could the sign of something worse. I know its not much help; but I'd just keep up with normal maintenance and keep a good eye on the fish to make sure nothing gets any worse.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Supa Mint,

Are you referring to the small spot at the junction of the tail fin and the body? I agree with lksdrinker that I would not treat for ich unless you see additional spots on other fish. If no other spots then likely it is not ich. As to what is it? Watch your Cardinal Tetras closely, if that spots seems to grow and spread, or you see the same problem (light spot on body) show up on other cardinals then it may be Neon Tetra Disease (which can affect Cardinals as well); however it does not look like that is Neon Tetra Disease.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

lksdrinker said:


> .... I'd just keep up with normal maintenance and keep a good eye on the fish to make sure nothing gets any worse.


Thank you lksdrinker. I'll keep a close eye on it for now.



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Supa Mint,
> 
> Are you referring to the small spot at the junction of the tail fin and the body? I agree with lksdrinker that I would not treat for ich unless you see additional spots on other fish. If no other spots then likely it is not ich. As to what is it? Watch your Cardinal Tetras closely, if that spots seems to grow and spread, or you see the same problem (light spot on body) show up on other cardinals then it may be Neon Tetra Disease (which can affect Cardinals as well); however it does not look like that is Neon Tetra Disease.


Thanks Roy. Sorry for the terrible pics - yes, it's the 'small' spot at the junction of the tail and fin. What doesn't come through in the pics, is that it is a raised, formed, protruding, bright-white cyst with very distinct edges. The Neon Tetra disease picture looks very different. I'll keep a very close eye on everyone to make sure that nothing changes or spreads. And I'll keep my fingers crossed too!


-Erick


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Erick,

It may sound a little heartless, but sometimes it is better to remove a potentially sick fish rather than take the chance of exposing a whole tank to an unknown issue. If the spot wasn't there when you bought the fish then obviously something is going on. Sometimes fish issues are limited to one fish (fungus caused by injury, air bladder issues, etc) and sometimes they are contagious. I recently lost an entire 75 gallon tank with about 15 adult Melanotaenia boesemani 'Lake Aytinjo' that I had raised from eggs due to an unknown fungus(?) issue that wiped out the tank (100% death rate on the boesemani) in a little over a week. How? I added some Otocinclus to the tank without first putting them in quarantine and they must have been carrying the disease. Whose fault? Mine, I should have taken the time to quarantine the new fish for a couple of weeks. The point is one fish sick can cause a lot of heartache.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Erick,
> 
> It may sound a little heartless, but sometimes it is better to remove a potentially sick fish rather than take the chance of exposing a whole tank to an unknown issue. If the spot wasn't there when you bought the fish then obviously something is going on. Sometimes fish issues are limited to one fish (fungus caused by injury, air bladder issues, etc) and sometimes they are contagious. I recently lost an entire 75 gallon tank with about 15 adult Melanotaenia boesemani 'Lake Aytinjo' that I had raised from eggs due to an unknown fungus(?) issue that wiped out the tank (100% death rate on the boesemani) in a little over a week. How? I added some Otocinclus to the tank without first putting them in quarantine and they must have been carrying the disease. Whose fault? Mine, I should have taken the time to quarantine the new fish for a couple of weeks. The point is one fish sick can cause a lot of heartache.


Yikes! Terrible to hear. Unfortunately, I don't have a quarantine tank, so my only option would be to euthanize this Cardinal. She seems to be doing fine (acting normally), other than the appearance of the cyst; and it hasn't changed in 2 weeks, or infected the others. I'm torn as to what to do!

-Erick


----------



## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

I agree with both members above.
Have a look at lymphocystis.
Sometimes a single 'pimple' or 'cyst' can go as fast as it comes.
Viral no cure.
Just watch closely or make the call.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

Coralbandit said:


> I agree with both members above.
> Have a look at lymphocystis.
> Sometimes a single 'pimple' or 'cyst' can go as fast as it comes.
> Viral no cure.
> Just watch closely or make the call.


Thank you. I don't know about lymphocystis, yet - the 'cyst' or 'pimple' does not seem to be spreading, and does not seem to be bothering the fish.

Just a quick update... I noticed a similar cyst on another Cardinal Tetra, which I may have missed previously. But nothing else is visible on any other fish.. I have elevated the temperature to 88 degrees and continued the Ich treatment for the past 4 days, as a precaution. Unfortunately, the single spot on both Cardinals does not seem to be disappearing or shrinking. But it's not getting any worse, either.


----------



## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I would not continue the ich treatment just due to the odds being so small and it does add some stress to fish. Ich will not show in pictures until it gets to the really "covered" point. And it does change rapidly. If a single white spot stays in one place for longer than a day, I call it "something else". Ich is more like grains of salt of sugar and change almost like changing out a sweater. 
So at this point, I would move the single fish or if not possible, certainly keep the water as good and conditions as right as possible and then watch/wait for change. Many white spots are small scrapes/loose scales or bacteria/fungus, etc. Ich is just the most commonly talked about.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

PlantedRich said:


> I would not continue the ich treatment just due to the odds being so small and it does add some stress to fish. Ich will not show in pictures until it gets to the really "covered" point. And it does change rapidly. If a single white spot stays in one place for longer than a day, I call it "something else". Ich is more like grains of salt of sugar and change almost like changing out a sweater.
> So at this point, I would move the single fish or if not possible, certainly keep the water as good and conditions as right as possible and then watch/wait for change. Many white spots are small scrapes/loose scales or bacteria/fungus, etc. Ich is just the most commonly talked about.


Ok, thanks - makes sense. I will stop the Ich treatment and observe. Do you think that I should also discontinue the elevated temperature (88F)?


----------



## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I would go back to the preferred temp for the fish on hand. Just make it all as good as possible and watch would be my plan. However, I also find some value in getting prepared. It may be worth considering what treatment might be needed IF it goes that direction and that might let you have it on hand. I'm not a big user of meds as I spend far more effort to prevent and then , at times, I make the hard decision to just simply not fight the fight and cut my losses. Two meds which I do stock full time are Pimafix and Melafix. They are two that are somewhat low ball and do not cure the really volatile things. But they are also really cheap (for meds?)and have the great advantage of being able to use both at the same time without worry what they will do to the good bacteria. 
One of my major problems with many meds is that they require such care due to their killing the good bacteria. What I find can happen is that I use a med which may or may not be the correct one if I have not gotten the correct guess on the disease and then find that I have blown up my bacteria to the point that I find myself in something of a "death spiral". I may/may not cure the disease but in the process I kill the bacteria and it is such a fight to restore, that I nearly kill the fish! I find it is sometimes smarter to just kill one fish rather than risk killing them all? 
Like curing the flu? Try to avoid it if you can~!


----------



## ibebian (Jan 11, 2016)

No idea if this would help, but it could be worth a try if you're still trying to save them: MicrobeLift Artemis (bacterial) and Herbtana (parasitic). I've used both to good effect (including treating ich, though I agree this is probably not ich), and make sure to follow dosing and keep the water well oxygenated. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

PlantedRich said:


> ...Two meds which I do stock full time are Pimafix and Melafix. They are two that are somewhat low ball and do not cure the really volatile things. But they are also really cheap (for meds?)and have the great advantage of being able to use both at the same time without worry what they will do to the good bacteria.....





ibebian said:


> No idea if this would help, but it could be worth a try if you're still trying to save them: MicrobeLift Artemis (bacterial) and Herbtana (parasitic)....


Ok, thank you for the suggestions. It looks like these medications are similar, but not identical 'herbal' treatments - one for parasites and one for fungus. The Pimafix and Melafix combo can apparently be dosed together; and the Atemiss and Herbtana combo must be dosed 12 hours apart. I will do some additional research on these meds, and pick up one of the combos to see if they can clear up these cysts (or at least help prevent the other fish from being infected).

As an update, the 2 affected Cardinal Tetras appear to be acting normally; and there is no spread of these cysts.

I will report back after a couple of weeks, or if anything changes.

Thanks! -Erick


----------



## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

It may be that the spots were some minor scrapes that they got during handling/shipping and they are now recovering. 
One reason to be slow to treat unless I really see something that I know is a problem. I like the Pima/Mela as kind of the 
"aspirin " for fish. May not do much but it doesn't harm much either.


----------



## Tessa (Dec 8, 2015)

Coralbandit said:


> I agree with both members above.
> Have a look at lymphocystis.
> Sometimes a single 'pimple' or 'cyst' can go as fast as it comes.
> Viral no cure.
> Just watch closely or make the call.


Yep, this is what is slowly killing all my neon tetras. I bought them in three groups of five and it was the last group that infected the others. There's absolutely nothing you can do about the disease, so I'm just letting it run its course. In about two and a half years I've gone from 15 neons to 4 and these last guys all have the cysts. It's a matter of months when they are all gone.

It doesn't touch the other fish in the tank (cherry barbs, espei/hengel/harlequin rasboras, panda and peppered cories, otos).


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Neon tetra disease also have many cysts forming whitish spots on the fish.
The photos are not ich. Ich tends to be small and distinctly granular, like little grains of fine table salt.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Neon tetra disease also have many cysts forming whitish spots on the fish.
> The photos are not ich. Ich tends to be small and distinctly granular, like little grains of fine table salt.


Interesting. It seems that I can rule out both Ich and Neon Tetra Disease, since both fish have only one (medium size) spot - definitely much larger than grains of table salt. I suppose that Lymphocystis is still a possibility, but the pictures that I've seen don't seem to look like what my Cardinals have. Maybe I only have a mild case?


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

Another quick update. Tonight I noticed that one of the two Cardinals with a white cyst appeared bloated, lacked color, appeared to be gulping slightly, and wasn't as active as the other Cardinals. I questioned whether I should continue to observe until morning; but finally decided that I wouldn't take any chances that he might be suffering. I euthanized him using clove oil, which appeared to be relatively quick and humane. I hope that it was.

I still have 1 symptomatic Cardinal left with the white cyst on his tail. All of the other Cardinals appear to be fine. Hoping for the best.


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Those are still common neon tetra disease symptoms. I would terminate any that show signs, as soon as it happens until whatever it is is gone from the system.
google neon tetra disease, and click the images tab.


----------



## Supa Mint (Jul 5, 2016)

Nordic said:


> Those are still common neon tetra disease symptoms. I would terminate any that show signs, as soon as it happens until whatever it is is gone from the system.
> google neon tetra disease, and click the images tab.


Ok, I did some reading about Neon Tetra disease, and it states that the only species that seem to be resistant is the Cardinal Tetra: Neon Tetra Disease | The Aquarium Guide


----------



## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Not resistant, just less likely to have it, as cardinals are mostly wild captured when water levels drop i the rivers, so they don;t have the exposure of captive bred fish.


----------

