# Algae fun!



## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

Hi, my name is Ghazanfar and I have an algae problem.

Actually, this is an algae I've been trying to get rid of for almost a year. It started right around the meeting at my house in April last year. Its a filamentous algae, bright green, long strands that are relativly soft, easy to break, slimy to touch. I think its a kind of Rhizoclonium. Anyway, I tried EVERYTHING known to man to get rid of it. Double dosing Excel, blackouts, low lights, low nutrients, high nutrients, high CO2, high K, peroxide, Amano shrimp wont touch it, barbs don't eat it. I actually broke this tank down this past November, and started with brand new plants, and it STILL came back - this is the Superman of algae.

Anyway, a couple of weekends ago, I was at NEC and had an opportunity to talk to Dr. Ole Pedersen from the Univ. of Copahagen. He was a guest speaker at the NEC and guess what the topic of his talk was - Algae. 
I told him of my plight, and he was actually quite intruiged and asked for a sample of this super algae. I did mail it to him - we'll see what he comes back with on it. 

In the meantime, inspired by what I saw in his talk, I setup a little side by side experiement to see which concentrations of Excel work best. The results are interesting. So, instead of just telling you flat out, let's play a little game. 

I used 2 sets of 5 jars for the experiment, to ensure that the results were somewhat scientific.
In the pictures below, the jars with the same label have the same concentration of Excel.
Concentration used were (in no particular order):

100% recommended dose
25% recommended dose
0% 
200% recommended dose
50% recommended dose

Here are the before and after pictures. 
Before:









After:









The jars are not particularly placed by order of concentration. Then again, maybe they are.

Guess the concentration of Excel used in the jars.

Example answer:

A: 0%
B: 25%
C: .. etc you get the idea.

I'll post the right answer in a day or two.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

I've had good results with 1ml per gallon, which is about 200%, when dealing with my green filamentous algae horror. 

So... my guesses are:
A - 50%
B - 25%
C - 100%
D - 200%
E - 0%


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

x2. I hve the same guess. Come on Excel baby.... come on...



> A - 50%
> B - 25%
> C - 100%
> D - 200%
> E - 0%


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you have tried Glut in your tank, and it did not work, why bother doing a jar test where there is little else and not the environment that persist in growing the alga in your tank?

This is like those data of algae toxicity and allelopathy test that Diana Walstad detailed in her book, which are pretty much useless when comparing a real system.

Unless you plan on growing plants in a jar under those conditions, this really does not tell you much. It is on the other hand, easy/convenient/cheap/can screen many concentrations and chemicals/treatments.

Algae, bacteria etc and most pest issues need to be growing, actively, generally at log phase stage, then you add the toxicant/chemical treatment of interest.

Pest can have resistant spores, so while you might kill what is there by adding a chemical etc, if you cannot deplete the spore band/seed bank, root cause.............it does little good.

Germination is the key.
You stop that, you stop the alga.

If it is Rhizoclonium, it's fairly tasty to several critters.
SAE's should eat it.

It depends on what alga is actually is however, we do not know.
Vaucheria, Zygmega, could be a dozen or so species. 

As far as the jar test, you can figure a 4x the dosing rate in a lab jar test vs a field test in an aquarium. I do herbicide test on aquatic plants/algae and have done some rather extensive screenings. 

So if the jar test suggest say 150% for the goal you are after, 150%x 4 = 600% if what it will take. If you do large water changes, clean the tank, uproot, vac the gravel some, clean the filter, prune etc, you can likely knock this back to 2x.

Also, algae might be tolerant if actively growing and able to detoxify the herbicide added, but not in the jar. Just because the control is still green, did not die, does not imply that it grew. 

If you take most algae and put it in a jar, it'll just sit there. Some will die etc. Some will just sit. But it's not growing. That growth and active metabolism makes a huge difference.

Jar test are pretty poor for conclusions, what they are useful for is to screen a large no# of suspects to kill algae/pest etc. Then from there, you do another test on a real system. Diana did not do that next step which is required to show any evidence that it occurs or a useful treatment. I would not expect the same results from that vs the jar test.

Your own personal results show that. You did 200% in your tank and it had no result, however, in this jar test, it did.

This is what I'd suspect with most green algae.
They have the similar physiology as that of plants which seem to do well detoxifying Glut and then using it for carbon.

GDA and few others have bothered folks for a long time and folks have tried all sorts of things to get rid of a particularly species that plagues them from time to time.

I had a touch of something, perhaps like this myself, the obvious things did not get rid of it either. Many folks get some pesky algae at some point.
I saw some weird green alga at AF the other day. Your alga looks more like theirs, which I'd never seen prior in a tank.

You might consider working backwards, see what encourages growth, ID the species, see if you can germinate it.

Then you know more about it.
Alga does not hold up well in transport.

I'd be happy to try and figure it out which species it might be.
I like the green algae.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> If you have tried Glut in your tank, and it did not work, why bother doing a jar test where there is little else and not the environment that persist in growing the alga in your tank?


I actually did bring up this exact point with Dr. Pedersen, that the jar experiment cannot relate back to the active aquarium, where there are many more factors in play - and he agreed. But its a fun little thing to do, and any opportunity to kill algae is welcome in my book.

Anyway - take a stab at the concentrations Tom. It's all fun!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, as I mentioned, it's easy/safe, cheap, easy, can run many herbicides(hint hint) at once.

You might try copper, particularly at various concentrations and add some dither stem plant you have extra of as well as the alga.

Try this at say 0.1ppm, .2ppm, .3ppm and .4ppm.

Then watch for post regrowth after your treatment and retunr the algae or plant back to the tank(if not mush).

0.4ppm is lethal to algae, but not most aquatic weeds. 

Then you can try this one H2O2, Salt, even KNO3, KH2PO4 etc

You are after dose response curves.

C and D appear to be the higher rates, say 100, 200%, the A and B, the lower rates, 50-25%.

While guessing is one thing, do each of the jars have any viable algae left?
That's an important factor. You can beat algae back, but not eliminate it?

You can also give a visual estimation of % control, say 80% death, 100%, or 20% etc etc


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> While guessing is one thing, do each of the jars have any viable algae left?
> That's an important factor. You can beat algae back, but not eliminate it?
> 
> You can also give a visual estimation of % control, say 80% death, 100%, or 20% etc etc


Jar E - the algae actually seems to have multiplied, but the water level has also dropped and it may be an illusion. I don't have the time or motivation to really determine dry weight etc. 

I have some top down pictures I'll try and post up. It may give you a better idea of the state of the algae.

For now, anecdotally, 
Jar E has, at minimum, sustained, the algae I put in there. 
Jar D, the algae appears dead. Brown and loss of structure.
Jar C, the algae is almost dead - I doubt it will be able to come back. Brown and most of the structure is gone.
Jar B, its hurting bad, but could potentially come back. Brownish green, with the structure somewhat intact.
Jar A, here, its actually a bit green, the structure is mostly intact. I bet it would come back if given good conditions.


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## imeridian (Jan 19, 2007)

Oh, with that new information, I'd flip my A & B answers. In the photos they're sort of hard to differentiate, but it's seems the dosage is low in both of them.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

Ok, time to unveil the results.










E: 0% Excel
D: 25% recommended dose
C: 50% recommended dose
B: 100% recommended dose
A: 200% recommended dose

The results are surprising - showing that a smaller doses of Excel work better than larger doses - atleast in these jars.

Planted tanks are more complex than these glass jars - I'm not going to draw conclusions from this little experiment more than, in glass jars, a lower dose of Excel kills this algae better than higher concentrations.

Now, I will let you know - my tank is algae free!
Manual removal, followed by two weeks of healthy fertilization heavier on Phosphates (2 ppm), once a week 80% water changes, cut back on lighting intensity along with a 100% dose of Excel - and I've finally gotten rid of this super algae.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Ghazanfar Ghori said:


> Now, I will let you know - my tank is algae free!


Algae free or is it in remission? This is the key outcome. 

I hope you got it licked. Nice job.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

gmccreedy said:


> Algae free or is it in remission? This is the key outcome.
> 
> I hope you got it licked. Nice job.


Don't see a single strand anywhere. I think its gone! Party at my place!:thumbsup:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ghazanfar Ghori said:


> - and I've finally gotten rid of this super algae.


Did you get any good pictures of this species?
Ole have any guesses?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

I'm still waiting to hear back from him. He said the samples I sent him got there in good shape and he's going to culture it and ID it. I'll ping him in a few days to see what he has to say about it.



plantbrain said:


> Did you get any good pictures of this species?
> Ole have any guesses?
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It looks like an alga that AF had in one of their tanks which I'd seen in natural systems, but never in aquariums.

Did the tank have ADA AS or a nutrient rich sediment of some sort?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> It looks like an alga that AF had in one of their tanks which I'd seen in natural systems, but never in aquariums.
> 
> Did the tank have ADA AS or a nutrient rich sediment of some sort?
> 
> ...


Aquasoil - yep.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

This may be Spirogyra - Paul Krombolz had suggested this and looking at pictures online
I think there's a good chance he's right. It did form 'spirals' at the end of long strands
though I know from the articles, its named for how the cells are arranged.
Looks like this:
http://www.dwe.nsw.gov.au/water/images/algal_fig12.jpg


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## KDahlin (Mar 12, 2007)

By "recommended dose" do you mean Seachem's recommended dose for using Excel as a carbon source?


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## dthb4438 (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks like the algae that I have also. I thought it was hair algae. I can't use Excel though cause I have lots of shrimp. They won't touch it, even the Amano's. I just have to keep pulling it off every couple of weeks. Any other ideas besides Excel?

Also "Spirogyra" is a great jazz group.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

A small dose of Excel shouldnt harm your shrimp.


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## ER9 (Aug 2, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> It looks like an alga that AF had in one of their tanks which I'd seen in natural systems, but never in aquariums.
> 
> Did the tank have ADA AS or a nutrient rich sediment of some sort?
> 
> ...


is this a known culprit? i have some in my tank and i swear i am living hell on earth going from one algae battle to a another. i think i have had every algae known including a very strange white veiny type iv'e never seen a picture or reference of online.


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## Ghazanfar Ghori (Apr 15, 2003)

Its been ID'd as a Spirogyra species.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

SG is an easy one to ID under a scope, has two nice chloroplast pairs spiraling.
So it's fairly certain.

It's not that easy to get rid of. A blackout and some Excel, adjust the CO2, trim off any you can get at, remove tangles.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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