# The 180 gallon project - don't know what I'm doing



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

Look into apistogramma! Dwarf chiclids are gorgeous and they go well with discus. Dwarf chiclids like soft water though as do discus. Dwarf chiclids are my favorite fish at the moment I can't get enough they are so beautiful and full of personality! If you are determined to stay with hard water I recommend trying "shellies" perhaps. I don't know much about them but I'm quite interested in them currently. I wish I could get some. They are little chiclids that live in shells. They may make planting tough though not sure.


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## someoldguy (Feb 26, 2014)

What about no bigger fish , just a huge school (maybe 40-50) of smaller tetras , barbs or lampeyes , plus some corys/ottos (20 or so) down below to clean up the mess....


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

The big question is: Are you planning on planting the tank? 

If so, I'd keep away from discus until you have the planted piece down. While planted tanks and discus can be done. I dont buy into the whole idea that you cant grow big healthy discus in a planted tank (I've done it). But planted tanks require a whole other set of skills and understanding. Read up on this forum about low tech vs high tech, c02 injection, substrate, lighting, fertilization. Ask yourself what kind of plants do you want to keep and how much time do you have in doing the maintenance. Fish are one thing, but plants add another variable to the equation.

+1 on the dwarf cichlids- apistogramma. Great personalities and great colors.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Or check out Blood Parrots - lots of personality per inch.

v3


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

OVT said:


> Or check out Blood Parrots - lots of personality per inch.
> 
> v3



Blood Parrots <3
You could always be like me and keep non traditional fish in your tank.

You planing on going high tech or keeping it low tech?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I saw a quote on here: not exactly true to the actual quote though.
I tried for years unsuccessfully, to have plants in my fish tank.
When I tried having a planted tank/w fish in it I was successful.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

jasa73 said:


> The big question is: Are you planning on planting the tank?
> 
> If so, I'd keep away from discus until you have the planted piece down. While planted tanks and discus can be done. I dont buy into the whole idea that you cant grow big healthy discus in a planted tank (I've done it). But planted tanks require a whole other set of skills and understanding. Read up on this forum about low tech vs high tech, c02 injection, substrate, lighting, fertilization. Ask yourself what kind of plants do you want to keep and how much time do you have in doing the maintenance. Fish are one thing, but plants add another variable to the equation.
> 
> +1 on the dwarf cichlids- apistogramma. Great personalities and great colors.


I'll follow the advice and start with growing plants first.

Last thing I need to do is mess up and kill a $200.00 adult show fish.



ErtyJr said:


> Look into apistogramma! Dwarf chiclids are gorgeous and they go well with discus. Dwarf chiclids like soft water though as do discus. Dwarf chiclids are my favorite fish at the moment I can't get enough they are so beautiful and full of personality! If you are determined to stay with hard water I recommend trying "shellies" perhaps. I don't know much about them but I'm quite interested in them currently. I wish I could get some. They are little chiclids that live in shells. They may make planting tough though not sure.


Apistos! How is their temperament in a planted tank? Do they uproot stuff? Do they have personality?



someoldguy said:


> What about no bigger fish , just a huge school (maybe 40-50) of smaller tetras , barbs or lampeyes , plus some corys/ottos (20 or so) down below to clean up the mess....


Thats a fantastic idea. I looked into barbs and I could do huge schools of tigers, cherries, and golds in a 180. I like the idea of having some cories too.



HybridHerp said:


> Blood Parrots <3
> You could always be like me and keep non traditional fish in your tank.
> 
> You planing on going high tech or keeping it low tech?


Not sure yet. I'm reading up on this.

If I decide on high tech, I'll start with two 36" T5HO four bulb fixtures and then pick up a Milwaukee regulator and a co2 tank. I used a Milwaukee for a couple of years with a Korallin calcium reactor on my reef for years with no issues. I liked it and I know exactly how to dial it in.

For low tech, I can pick up two 36 inch T5HO TWO bulb fixtures or go LED, and use one of the flourish excel copy cats for carbon.

I get the vibe that high tech tanks are usually more successful for newbies?

As for odd fish, how about an archer? :-D


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

I think most archers are brackish but research man.

And the thing with high tech is since growth pressure is high, beginner mistakes will hit harder than low tech mistakes.

Also, do your research on lighting. And figure out what plants you want to grow. Maybe what would be good is get a fantastic substrate, hard scape, then start mediumish light no co2 until you feel comfortable taking the leap. You can even get a powerful highlight fixture and just not run all the bulbs or something until you get the co2 dialed in and bumpin.


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

Apistos are fantastic. I've kept german blue rams (GBR), and presently have a pair of apistogramma agassazii...awesome colors and they have super personalities. I find apistos do not root up anything. 

It's great you have experience with a pH controller. It will make the c02 injection piece easier for you. Keep in mind that people have been known to gas their fish to death. Be sure to read up on how to find the right c02 ppm and get a drop checker. A drop checker is what people use in C02 injection that dont use a pH controller (usually measuring their rate by bubbles per minute. I use a pH controller as well but I use a drop checker as a spot visual as to where my c02 is at. 

If you are going high tech or high light be sure to read up on fertilization. I dose Estimative Index aka EI. Its based on the premise that if we provide excess nutrients to our plants, the plants will get everything they need, provided they have adequate access to c02, and light they will grow well and out compete algae. It rejects the notion that excess nutrients are the cause of algae outbreaks and eliminates the need for tedious and inaccurate testing of the water. The system is reset weekly by a large weekly water change. There are other fert regimes that you can read up on the fert section.

Keep in mind light is the big driver here. I like to think of light amount (intensity and photoperiod) as our accelerator.If you have high light and c02 or ferts are not in balance you will get alage. The higher the light the faster you could crash. Many of the posts from beginners on here that have major algae outbreaks have way too much light in either intensity or photoperiod, coupled with no/low ferts and/or not enough c02.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)




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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I set the tank up and started cleaning it with vinegar and water.

It's huge. I had a 180 reef, but it looked a hell of a lot smaller with hundreds of pounds of live rock.


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## Lyfeoffishing (Jun 14, 2014)

When I finish college I am going to setup a 180 in my own living room. The stock will be something around this 

50+ cardinal tetras
4-6 angles 
20+ cory cats 
4-6 german blue rams
4-6 cockatoo cichlids 


Now this is just an estimate and I will rethink the bottom dwellers but that's what I plan to have. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I like a large school of small fish in a large tank. It seems to make the tank look even larger.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Jeff5614 said:


> I like a large school of small fish in a large tank. It seems to make the tank look even larger.


+1
Large schools of small fish / small plants look best IMO. A carpet of something small looks AMAZING in big tanks with small-leaf stem plants filled in. This is one of my favorite tanks that I am using as my current inspiration:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=541881


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I am not a fan of blood parots but wow do they ever pop in a planted tank!!

That 125g is just something truly amazing!!

If this was my tank I would start off low tech and go from there. Seeing how you are new to planted tanks and a tank of this size; things can turn bad really fast with high tech.

Think about the amount of money you will end up spending on just plants alone. To fill a tank of this size is going to be a very costly venture. I know in my 75g I have more.money in plants than live stock and I am 100% stocked.


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## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm setting up a similiar size tank in my new house in a couple months. I've had the benefit of experience with a bunch of different fish to see what I like in a tank.
I'm going to set up an amazon theme with different size sword plants, Anubias, Java fern, and plants that can do well without CO2. The possibility of a bad regulator or having to find a source for refills doesn't appeal to me.
For fish I'm going to do
2 Dantum Angels and 2 Platinum Angels
6 Bosemani
6 - 8 Congo Tetras
15 Rummynose Tetras or Emperor Tetras
3 Pictus Cats
1 Synodontis
2 Albino BN Plecos
That's were I'm at so far. I'm going to set up the plants and a colony of RCS first (I know many will say this won't work with all the predators I the tank, but I've got a thriving population of RCS in a tank with Angels and Barbs right now that's been going strong for two years .


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## AlecFish (Nov 26, 2011)

Either way you choose to go it will be costly, the price of small fish can add up and the same goes for buying a school of larger fish. 

If I were you man, I'd go with something from the barilius genus. They grow to 4-5 inches and probably do well in large groups but with that size you shouldn't have a problem. My favorite are the barilius canarensis. So cool. 
Maybe throw a school of 10 roseline sharks to compliment them. Then your set. 

Make sure you have a good hardscape before you fill it though, moving stuff around in a big tank can be difficult at times.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Yep, plants will cost you a good amount to fill it out. Almost $150 in my 75 gallon and I still wish I bought more. Patience will pay off and everything will grow out and propagate but you are looking at around $400 on fish and plants at a minimum IMO. A disaster scenario will be quite costly...

I am going high tech for my first mainly planted tank anyways though lol


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

I am in the crowd of having spent more on my plants than fish was well! 

I like schools of fish, but there is something to be said for being able to identify _specific_ fish, and learn their personalities. For me, the fish with personalities are more important than having a perfect aquascape. I think I am actually going to start a thread on this in the FISH forum.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

So, I'm going to start slow and low tech until I figure out what kind of maintenance schedule I can work in between two jobs.

I've got a few questions though:

1. Substrate: I have no idea which way to go here.

* 7-8 bags of Eco-complete mixed with a 3-4 bags of Activ-Flora black.

* MGOPS capped with Eco complete or fluorite black sand. It seems like a majority of the successful low tech planted tanks out there are dirted. But the high TDS in the tank is off putting.

2 Lighting: which way should I go, and what will give me medium light level for a low tech planted tank?

* Finnex Fugelight planted LED. 2 x 36"
Finnex FugeRay Planted+ Aquarium LED Light Plus Moonlights, 36-Inch:Amazonet Supplies


* AquaticLife T5HO. It has full German reflectors for each of two 36" bulbs. I like the 36" bulbs because I can find them anywhere cheap.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13822+23753&pcatid=23753

* Odyssea four bulb T5HO, it works, has the moonlights, four bulbs, and timers. I can run it with two bulbs if four turn out to be too much light.
http://www.aquatraders.com/36-inch-4x39W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Fixture-p/52324p.htm

I have a pair of 24" Aquatic Life LED's mounted under my canopy (came with the tank). I plan to use them for moonlight/dusk/dawn lights (attached pic). So I don't need moonlights or anything.

I'm sort leaning towards the aquatic life T5 fixture because I can customize the bulbs, and the spread.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Seems that Aquaticlife has a high reflective property to those reflectors it has.
That high TDS is good(after it matures a few weeks) for shrimp if you ever...
Gauranteed cheaper than the other choice that you listed.
If you do that one a couple of the threads where that was discussed said that 2" or
more of cap keeps in the dirt much better. One person reflected that 80% of any issues he'd read about leaching anything from the soil was in tanks/w less than that.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Sorry things are going slowly. Between kids, travel, and a couple of jobs, this project is finally getting traction.

1. I bought three bags of MGOCPM. I plan to sift it the best I can.

2. I have ten pounds of California red potters clay. I can emulsify this and add it to the soil.

3. I picked up some Muriate of Potash, soluble KCl that will be added beneath the soil layer.

I also ordered the following, it should be here in a week or so:
* 9 bags of flora active black. This should be two inches cap that I want.
* Hydor inline heater, 300 watt
* Koralia 850 GPH pump for circulation

Next I need lights. When I get back from my next trip, I'll be ordering a custom built fixture from Catalina aquariums. I'm thinking three 39 watt bulbs per fixture, individual reflectors, and six inch spacing between the bulbs. Two units, side by side, should give me the low/medium light I want.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

What is the best source for online plants? I'm looking for packages I can put together (3-400$) and fill this tank.

I'm going with a dirt substrate, with lots of root feeders. I figure plants like swords should fill out and take up plenty of space.

Fish: local sources are a wasteland for fresh water. It sucks to be in the fish hobby here if you aren't running salt.
I'm thinking:
Harlequin rasboras
Cory cats
Rams - German, and electric blue.
True SAE and ottos for the cleanup crew.
Rainbows - red and bosemani

I love the rasboras, but if I can't find or get enough of these, I'll go with schools of tiger or rosy barbs (my second choice).


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Lights: I went with a pair of 36 inch Catalina three bulb t5HO. I picked two 6500K, and one reddish plant-gro in each. As you can see, they're slick, and they fit under the canopy. Individual reflectors, and I can run either one, two, or all three bulbs.

It's plenty bright with enough spread. No dark. No shadows. No spotlight effect.

Substrate: I found activ flora (black) and bought ten bags. I'll use it to cap Mineralized MGOCPM. There's one in the tank.

Flow: one Koralia 850. Is that enough, or should I add another? I'm looking for a gentle current, not plastering the fish and plants against the glass.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Here's my Eheim Pro2, and the hydor 300 watt attached to a hook.

The filter came with the tank, it needed all new suction cups and media.

Bump: Substrate
Heater
Filter
Lights
And I threw in a Koralia 850 for extra flow.

Only thing to do now? Figure out what to put in it.


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## AGUILAR3 (Jun 22, 2013)

Those lights are perfect. I'm loving the slim fit.

I'm sure you can get a sweet deal from one of the members here. There are quite a few who actually have the stock you will need to fill that monster up.


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## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

Excellent choice on the lights. Dirt is cheaper and grows plants very well, but it's messy and it starts to stink after a year or so IME. I think you'll also need at least one more large filter, however, I tend to over filter. 
For fish make sure you've done your best to locate quality shops near you. I just recently found one 15 minutes from me after struggling to source what I wanted for the last 5 years.
For plants I'd stick around the For Sale section. $100 would buy you quite a bit. They'd be smaller, but Swords grow quickly as do Val's and most stem plants


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Dirting it!

There's muriate of Potash on the bottom, capping with soil, then adding small bits of clay, and emulsified clay water.

It's messy, but done. Turns out I need one more bag of activ flora. To the store!


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Here's what the cap looks like, I have 1.5 inches of each of the soil and activ flora.

It's not consistent though, the center is only a half inch cap, so I need one more bag. Lesson to anyone doing a 6x2 footprint 180 or 240. You need 10 bags or 150 pounds even for a 1.5 inch substrate cap.

I did not slope the substrate much (maybe a quarter inch?), because well, there's already two full feet of front to back space, and it looks like it.

Tomorrow, I'll add the last bag, hardscape, fill with water, Prime dechlorinator, and start adding ammonia to cycle. Then we plant.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Plant first then add water


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

philipraposo1982 said:


> Plant first then add water


I thought about that, but miracle grow organic, industrial pure ammonia, and T5 plant grow light is a thermonuclear algae bomb waiting to happen isn't it? 

I can always drain it back down later after ammonia/nitrites are zero, and I've done a few water changes, and the soil isn't quite as hot? Algae can't get a foothold with the lights out.

Please advise me here, in the reef world we always cycle dark. Curing live rock for the first time like this cycles the tank and no algae grows.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Working on the hard scape.

Stocking Suggestions? 

I'm thinking :

I have two interesting pieces of wood, with space in between for a pair of full grown swords, one Amazon and an Ozelot.

Plant dwarf sag around the foreground rocks.

Anubias around the wood.

Java fern attached to the wood.

Wisteria behind the wood on the right, ludwigia on the left, jungle vals center.

Crypts in the foreground.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> Working on the hard scape.
> Stocking Suggestions?


You mean fish? 

We're working on something of similar sizes. I plan to take advantage of the size and get a decent sized school, at least one of Congo Tetras, maybe another also. It might just be chaos, but I'm hoping with maybe 15 or so we'll get that flash of everyone turning together, or scrambling for cover when someone walks up (or maybe scrambling for food, which is more likely).

In my small tank I have two groups of 5 each of tetras, but it's a small tank and small group.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Linwood said:


> You mean fish?
> 
> We're working on something of similar sizes. I plan to take advantage of the size and get a decent sized school, at least one of Congo Tetras, maybe another also. It might just be chaos, but I'm hoping with maybe 15 or so we'll get that flash of everyone turning together, or scrambling for cover when someone walks up (or maybe scrambling for food, which is more likely).
> 
> In my small tank I have two groups of 5 each of tetras, but it's a small tank and small group.


I mean both plants and fish!

I have harder water, so I'm thinking rainbows for sure. I can provide them the 8 or so Ph the Aussies like out of the tap.


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## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

I think I your planting idea sounds good. As to stocking Rainbows, Congo Tetras, dwarf cichlids, Corydoras catfish, Rummynose tetras... I could go on and on. The potential of a tank that large is amazing!


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> ...jungle vals center.


One thing I'm trying to get right in this tank is to allow for water flow at the surface for the jungle vals, as they will get up there and flow with it, so trying to make sure I've got room for a couple feet of growth bending over that won't shade other things I don't want shaded. No real suggestion there, just imagine them grown and look at the lights.


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## dbw27 (May 19, 2014)

See. I am so late. I was just going to suggest a South American biotope. 

Dbw


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I think I'm going to tear this down and start over at a later date.

Dirt is messy and disgusting, putting it in my tank was a terrible idea. Every time I add a new plant I end up fouling the water even worse than it is. Since 09/07 it's been cloudy every single day, despite two large 80% water changes and leaving it alone completely (no new plants or rescaping) for a week.

I used aged water from the main tank to put in a bucket while I setup a 12 gallon quarantine tank with a cycled hang on filter. Horrible idea, it killed two fish within a few minutes of adding tank water to the bag. The main tank water is toxic despite having 0 ammo/nitrites, I haven't even started the fish less cycle in the main tank, but there's something nasty in it.

So, I'm going to hit 'pause', take out the plants and driftwood, shovel out the dirt and substrate, and replace it with straight Eco complete fine. Dirt isn't for new people, adding clay and potash may be good for the plants, but God knows what else is in it. I don't even know if it's advisable or possible to save the activ flora.

- frustrated


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> So, I'm going to hit 'pause', take out the plants and driftwood, shovel out the dirt and substrate, and replace it with straight Eco complete fine. Dirt isn't for new people, adding clay and potash may be good for the plants, but God knows what else is in it. I don't even know if it's advisable or possible to save the activ flora.
> 
> - frustrated


Hang in there. I almost did dirt, and it was reading people saying "best if you don't have to disturb it after". And I can't leave anything alone, always moving, replacing... 

The good thing (if there is a good thing) is every time I have to go back and start over, the result is so much better than it was going to be before I pulled the "start over" trigger. Yours will be also.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

You should really stick with it and the dirt will settle down after month. The tank will mature.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

tylergvolk said:


> You should really stick with it and the dirt will settle down after month. The tank will mature.


I don't think the water will go from toxic to an environment capable of supporting fish life. This is probably my fault, not 'dirt'. I probably added too much clay, soil, or potash, or I didn't poke every square inch of soil everyday or something. Whatever it is. The water. Kills. Fish.

Unfortunately the online stores I like are out of Eco fine and activ flora so I'll keep it running as is for at least another week or two.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

BigJay180 said:


> I don't think the water will go from toxic to an environment capable of supporting fish life. This is probably my fault, not 'dirt'. I probably added too much clay, soil, or potash, or I didn't poke every square inch of soil everyday or something. Whatever it is. The water. Kills. Fish.
> 
> Unfortunately the online stores I like are out of Eco fine and activ flora so I'll keep it running as is for at least another week or two.


The tank will stabilize. Just keep doing water changes more frequently and hang in there.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

"Emulsified clay water"? What's that? Might be the source of your cloudiness?

Or bacteria bloom.

Have you planted the tank yet? Stuff it with some hardy fast-growing stems and plants are one of the best chemical filters around.

If the tank's only been going for a week, I'd give it at least another week or two to see if things settle in before throwing in the towel.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

lauraleellbp said:


> "Emulsified clay water"? What's that? Might be the source of your cloudiness?
> 
> Or bacteria bloom.
> 
> ...


The clay water is what you get when you add soft clay to wet soil. I didn't think it would be a problem, but the clay balls melted and turned the soil a reddish brown. I didn't know it would do that, and yes it makes the water cloudy and probably toxic with all of the iron.

Planted? I'd say moderate at least. I need to secure some of the stems to the driftwood, but here it is.

This is what I'll be breaking down to remove the soil and clay mess. I already have new substrate ordered.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

It looks very nice. That's a huge beautiful sword (?) in the middle. Too bad it's toxic. Sure it isn't worth taking a few feeder goldfish or something and make sure it really still is?


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

From the depths of failure must shine a little light.

Most of the plants are growing like crazy.

This guy, new growth is coming in the last two days, and it's a really pretty red. A side bonus of having way too much iron in the tank?

Bump: A three inch piece of this stem broke off of the rest, attached itself to the java fern, and grew in a few days.

Now if I could actually keep fish, I would be happy

Bump: Jungle Val's are bouncing back after the beating they took during shipping. This is the back right corner of the tank.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> From the depths of failure must shine a little light.....
> 
> ...This guy, new growth is coming in the last two days, and it's a really pretty red. A side bonus of having way too much iron in the tank?


From what I read it is certainly an indication that your light is good, to get reds. 

So maybe it is time to invest in a couple cheap fish to see if the water really is still toxic?


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I'll try more fish in a while, I'm still thinking the substrate switch is the way to go.

Here's the big sword, I bought it because this is basically the fat guy holding up the line in the 'all you can eat' algae buffet.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm exhausted. I spent the last six hours tearing out the old stuff and adding new.
The toxic fish killing problem was anoxic gas. Tearing out the mud, it smelled absolutely putrid, like sulfur. No, worse. Like rotten eggs and offal. Removing it was absolutely wretched 'try not to puke' work. I managed to get all of it, clean, and dry the tank completely. I washed some of the old activ flora substrate, and capped it with another ten bags.

Apparently my problem was that I never poked the substrate, and some parts were not planted (under the driftwood). Learn from my mistake. Dirt isn't bad, I just didn't do it right.

I have 20 or so flourish root tabs I'll be adding tomorrow.

Next step is a few more plants and some pressurized CO2. I'm taking this setup medium tech - low to medium lights and low bubble count co2.

I just hope I didn't kill Half my plants by uprooting them and leaving them in a bucket of cold water. Some at the top dried up a little.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Hopefully you are past the worst part and it will all go well now.




BigJay180 said:


> Apparently my problem was that I never poked the substrate, and some parts were not planted (under the driftwood). Learn from my mistake. Dirt isn't bad, I just didn't do it right.


OK, I have a pretty deep (2-5" varying) substrate of sand.

Am I supposed to be poking it or stirring it?


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Linwood said:


> Hopefully you are past the worst part and it will all go well now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry, you don't have multiple pounds of organic fertilizer material buried down there decomposing.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> I wouldn't worry, you don't have multiple pounds of organic fertilizer material buries down there.


No, it's pretty sterile, with a bit of osmecote+.

I keep thinking I should get some MTS to stir it up, but I figure I do not actually have to decide that -- it will just happen at some point. :icon_conf


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## BigJay (Jun 30, 2009)

I Added four red rainbows, two absolutely gorgeous red males, and two of the plain green-yellowish females.

They are busy swimming and chasing the girls around the plants.

The tank finished off a cycle, i added ammonia, and some 'safe start'. I ended up with nothing after a week. I have no nitrates either, and actually plan to dose it if I don't see any this week. Either the plants or the bacteria are it. I never rinsed the bio media on either filter.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I've decided to go with Rainbows as the showcase fish, reds and bosemani's for sure, and maybe an Aussie or two.

For the dither/schooling fish, I went with harlequin rasboras.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Full tank shot, still need some decent background stem plants on one side.


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## genEus (Oct 10, 2009)

Gotta say, was rooting for you hanging onto the dirt, as I'm thinking of going the mgops route myself. Sad to have read that you tore it all up. Hmmmm... Tank looks great though! 




BigJay180 said:


> Full tank shot, still need some decent background stem plants on one side.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm dosing the water column twice a week, one macro and one micro day. The total amount is only one days EI for a tank my size, and I've been changing 50% of the water.

I tore the dirt out, and instead I'm going with ozmocote and seachem root tabs, and I can move things without clouding the water for a week.

So no, I don't miss the dirt...

Everything is growing. You can see here I added some alternathera reinecki stems, I'm hoping that I can keep it with the T5 lighting, dosing, and water changes. I hacked back the huge sword to remove most of the emersed leaves, and the new submerged ones are coming in fast. Wisteria is growing better with nutrients and partial sunlight they get. And the school of harlequin rasbora sate doing great.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> I tore the dirt out, and instead I'm going with ozmocote and seachem root tabs, and I can move things without clouding the water for a week.


have you considered taking the Osmocote+ (+ right?) and putting in gel caps? I stopped in a vitamin store and picked up a big bag for cheap, and stick in some granules and instant root tabs. Not my idea, it's around here somewhere. 

It's too soon for me to say how it worked in terms of growth, but very easy to make very easy to stick in the substrate (but don't procrastinate as you do, they get sticky/soft quickly). 



BigJay180 said:


> Wisteria is growing better with nutrients and partial sunlight they get.


I'm having second thoughts on wisteria. Mine is growing so fast I worry I'll wake up one morning and it is out in the room and closing off the exits. I worry it's growing so fast it is taking everyone else's nutrients.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Linwood said:


> have you considered taking the Osmocote+ (+ right?) and putting in gel caps? I stopped in a vitamin store and picked up a big bag for cheap, and stick in some granules and instant root tabs. Not my idea, it's around here somewhere.
> 
> It's too soon for me to say how it worked in terms of growth, but very easy to make very easy to stick in the substrate (but don't procrastinate as you do, they get sticky/soft quickly).
> 
> ...


I bought gel cap tabs here from another member. I'm looking to get some more though.

If the wisteria is a problem, hack it back. You're right that it is taking nutrients, but most of that is ammonia, fish poo, and rotten food. If the plants don't take it up, algae will. I have the same problem with my hornwort, it's like three feet long now.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Now for the bad part.

The right side of the tank is not doing as well.

The Java fern attached to the driftwood is browning, no new growth. I think it's getting too much light, because the Java fern I have in a shaded area is growing new leaves and Plantlets. I'm going to clip it off and move the rest, and replace it with clippings of hornwort.

The jungle Val's are almost completely gone. They don't like excel, but I do. Nothing makes me happier than dosing something that causes single cell algae to rupture and spill their cytoplasm all over the tank. So I'll be replacing the plants with bacopa, or some other hardy and good looking stem.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> The jungle Val's are almost completely gone. They don't like excel, but I do.


I've got jungle val growing like mad with excel, though at first it started turning transparent and dying. After a while it thrived. When I moved some to the new tank it didn't miss a beat and also grew nicely with excel.

I'm putting 1 cap (5ml) in a 45G daily, and 15ml in a 220G (probably only 180G of water) daily. I think I'm going to start using more in that tank just because of the wisteria volume. 

But the val is doing very well.

Maybe don't rush to replace it -- see if it grows some new leafs that are happier?


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Update: everything growing in.

What do I do with this three feet!! Of Hornwort?

Bump: It's a monster. It went insane as soon as it hit the surface, is that because it has access to atmospheric CO2? Do I trim this thing? It's probably the reason I still have zero nitrates.

Anyways, I'm off to do a 50% water change.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

That is an ungodly amount of hornwort. Time to sell some!!


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## Lyfeoffishing (Jun 14, 2014)

Wow gorgeous!!! 

What is that plant on either side of that sword?

55 gallon community


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

The stems? Alternathera reinecki. It's a gorgeous plant and even grew in a little. I'm hoping that I don't kill it.

Thanks for the comments.

I'm afraid if I remove any hornwort, I'll get a mini cycle. It's huge and it takes up a lot of nutrients (fish waste...). 

Just sitting here refilling the tank after removing 50-60%.

Bump: Also: I added four ottos today to chip away at the little bit of brown or green algae here and there. So far so good, 4/4 survived.


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## Lyfeoffishing (Jun 14, 2014)

Okay that's what I thought. 

Also just trim it up some you shouldn't go through a mini cycle I've comepletly butchered my 55 gallon and didn't go through a mini cycle. 

55 gallon community


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

The tank is still going strong, and looking great after a 70% water change and fresh fertilizer dose. Everything perks up and looks better after a water change and cleaning. The plants grow more, the fish are more active, and the tank looks amazing. Seriously. Try it. Go do a big water change tonight, and clean the glass.

The a. Reinecki is doing great, it's a gorgeous plant.
I added some red ludwigia to the back right side where the Val's were struggling to do something other than die. 
I have a few snails apparently, the ram type. Are they a problem?
I'm up to six Otto fish and will stay there, the little brown slime algae I had is even less now.
The sword-runner plantlets are growing roots, what do I do with these?

Other than adding a little more ludwigia and a few rasboras for the school, I'm happy with where this tank is.

Bump: Also, I pulled the last of the emergent leaves from the main sword, it replaced these with the long sword shaped underwater leaves, and the plant is as big as it was when I bought it.

I've also been adding flourish root tabs every few weeks for the root feeders. Just ten at a time, nothing crazy given how big the tank is.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Speaking of flourish tabs, I was going to buy a bunch of dwarf sag from another member here, but I decided against it. I added flourish tabs to where the dwarf sag is growing a few weeks back, and it went nuts. I have twice as much as I originally bought, and now the new plants are sending out runners...


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> I have a few snails apparently, the ram type. Are they a problem?
> I'm up to six Otto fish and will stay there, the little brown slime algae I had is even less now.


I like ramshorn snails, but they do breed rapidly. Some people hate them for that, but there are lots of ways to manage the population from culling (stick something like slices of cucumbers in, and remove it with a handfull of snails) to being lunch (shrimp and angels will eat the eggs, assassin snails and loaches will eat them) to just don't feed enough that they don't breed. But most importantly ramshorns will do lots of cleanup and not hurt healthy plants at all.

Did all your oto's live? I had horrible luck, went from 7 to 2. The last two are doing fine. I want some more but it's frustrating to get them.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Linwood said:


> I like ramshorn snails, but they do breed rapidly. Some people hate them for that, but there are lots of ways to manage the population from culling (stick something like slices of cucumbers in, and remove it with a handfull of snails) to being lunch (shrimp and angels will eat the eggs, assassin snails and loaches will eat them) to just don't feed enough that they don't breed. But most importantly ramshorns will do lots of cleanup and not hurt healthy plants at all.
> 
> Did all your oto's live? I had horrible luck, went from 7 to 2. The last two are doing fine. I want some more but it's frustrating to get them.


All of them lived so far. I picked stock that was in the LFS for two weeks before buying them.

The rest was just luck.

I also waited until my tank was well established and had a little bit of algae before adding any ottos.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> All of them lived so far. I picked stock that was in the LFS for two weeks before buying them.


Maybe that helps, though a lot of what I've read says the opposite, that it is the mistreatment in transit and LFS's. Inadvertent mistreatment -- they try to feed them regular flakes or similar, rather than making algae available, and by the time you get the fish they are basically staved.

I don't know... good to hear yours worked.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

The LFS tank had some algae for them to eat


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> The LFS tank had some algae for them to eat


Someone knew what they were doing then.

or accident.

I bought mine at Petsmart, and it was an immaculate tank. Should have worried me.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Where to begin? I picked up two more Bosemani Rainbows, and lost a red/millennium. The two Reds were fighting over the three females and one hit the center brace while bullying the other. He got a cut on his side and died the next morning. The remaining red spawns in the hornwort every other morning since, so the fight was definitely a mating thing.

I took the A Reinecki from the right side of the tank, and moved it left. The stuff on the right side was doing terrible (black beard algae) so I had to trim it back and hack off the algae infested parts. 

I replaced it with red ludwigia, which does amazing in my tank, stays bright red (see pic) and not a spot of algae anywhere.

I had a nasty ich outbreak, and fought it with the blue stuff and lost half of my rasboras. I picked up some Kordons Ich meds in case it comes back, a great local fish store recommended the stuff because the other treatments have formalin, which can kill fish. 

This is my first dealing with ich, because on the marine side it was really not a big deal. A fish might get a spot or two and it would go away the next day and never come back. Of course I had protein skimmers, UV, and corals pulling that stuff out.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

After two outbreaks of ich (one in each tank) I'm a huge proponent of the heat treatment. Everything - fish, inverts, plants - survived the heat just fine, no stains from the medicine.

If you haven't heard of it - raise heat to over 86 degrees -- I use 88 with an accurate thermometer to be sure. The whole tank must stay over 86 degrees. Leave it over 86 for two weeks. 

Expect it to get worse for 1-3 days, then better, and the last week probably no signs of it, but do not stop the heat.

Ich cannot reproduce over 86 degrees (at least the vast majority of strains), and must reproduce to live, each individual dies in a few days (at that temperature). 

Make sure you have plenty of surface agitation during any ich treatment, as both medicine and heat reduce oxygen in the water. Do not use high heat (>86) with medicine as the double whammy can remove too much o2. 

Do not use moderately warm water (82-86) with heat alone as that actually makes ich worse, they reproduce faster. Medicine wants water in that range for the quicker reproduction; heat alone must be hotter, over 86.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Is there anything I can do to reduce spawning aggression?

I did an 80% water change last night. Relaxing today I've seen two spawning attempts by Bosemani and Millenium rainbows. And the fighting between males and species never ends..

Same thing happens every attempt. The eggs scatter, and the smaller fish swoop in for an easy meal. The males chase off the others and fight...


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Madagascar lace plant.

It melted completely after shipping and came back.

The Rainbows in the shot stopped chasing eachother around to beg for food.

Bump: Here's the red ludwigia, staying very red.

I changed water again 75% last night, and pulled out the last remaining jungle vals, adding more red ludwigia.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Routine:

Water changes once a week or two - then add macros. 1.5tsp potassium nitrate, .5 tsp potassium phosphate, and .5 tsp potassium sulfate.

The day after the WC, I add CSM-B and iron.

Mid way through the week, I add another dose of macros.

Every day, I add a four or five capfuls of excel.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> Madagascar lace plant.


They are a really interesting and unique plant, but every time I see one I think it's been abused in some way. :confused1:


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Linwood said:


> They are a really interesting and unique plant, but every time I see one I think it's been abused in some way. :confused1:


That's hilarious, my wife said the same thing. "What's wrong with this thing? The leaves are full of holes!"

Me: *facepalm*

Bump: Full tank shot this morning. Low tech setups can be lush too! It just takes about four months to get there. Going without CO2 isn't for the impatient.

The Madagascar lace sent a thin little runner up a hilarious two feet to the surface. Is it going to flower?


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I love the look of my tank the day after a water change. 

The fish are livelier, the plants fourish, and the glass is clean.

One problem: I bought C Balansae, the top fin kind.

It was tiny, so I planted it up front. I had no idea it would grow this large.

It melted to nothing but roots. I wasn't sad because I paid a dollar for each. I thought it was done for.

I added root tabs. It came back, and well, now look at it..

What should I do with it, and where to plant it? I'm short on space...


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## jay973 (Feb 5, 2009)

Your tank looks amazing!!! keep up the great work.

As far as Crypt balansae I eventually took it out of my own 180g because the leaves were closer to 30in long, lay on the surface, and shade other light loving plants on the ground which was bad... =) 

So keep it as long as you can and then look to trade or sell it off.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

30 inches? Amazing. I had no idea it would get so large.

Problem is that I really like it, the texture and the color is amazing, and it never gets any algae. Can I move it back and prune off anything too unruly?

Bump: Here is my carpet of dwarf sag. I've got to say, this stuff needs to be put on the invasive species list. After six months and some root tabs, it's taking over places in my tank where I don't want it to grow.

Pruning is futile. This is dwarf sag of Borg.


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Wow. This tank looks great!


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks Solid! 

Here are some of my rainbows. I've been filling my tank slowly, only picking out exceptional specimens fish. I only have a few now admittedly. I won't just throw anything in there, and get stuck taking care of something I don't like for years. It's a commitment.

For example, I only have three males. Male bosemani should have a strong yellow and blue color, clearly divided. The great specimens are absolutely striking.

PS: Ignore the female rainbows, they're not very attractive. But without females, the males will actually turn dull.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Taking your time picking fish is definitely a plus

that bosemani is beautiful man, what's the gender ration you got going atm?


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## mthomas356 (Jan 24, 2014)

Great looking tank. 180 is the size I'm looking at for my next tank. I just have to get some projects done for the wife first.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

mthomas356 said:


> Great looking tank. 180 is the size I'm looking at for my next tank. I just have to get some projects done for the wife first.


Thanks! When I bought this, I kept an eye out for a good deal on any six footer tank. I planned to get either a 125, 135, 150, or a 180, since the only difference was depth and height. My reef was a 180, so this worked out.

And yes, the wife got new furniture before the aquarium came home!

Bump:


HybridHerp said:


> Taking your time picking fish is definitely a plus
> 
> that bosemani is beautiful man, what's the gender ration you got going atm?


Right now I have two female Millenium red, and one fantastic looking male. I lost a male recently because he jumped up and hit the center brace :-/

I have three bosemani males and one female, I'll probably add another today.

The bosemani mostly ignore the female, where the red constantly harasses the two girls to spawn. They get busy in the hornwort bush, and the smaller fish come and eat the eggs to their frustration.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Time for an update:

I've been out of town all month save say two days.

My son feeds the tank every couple of days, when he remembers anyways.

I come home to a tank that isn't getting dosed, excel added, water changes, or ferts. And.. It looks better than when I messed with it. Just to spite me.

Bump: Time for an update:

I've been out of town all month save say two days.

My son feeds the tank every couple of days, when he remembers anyways.

I come home to a tank that isn't getting dosed, excel added, water changes, or ferts. And.. It looks better than when I messed with it. Just to spite me.


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

Beautiful tank!


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

BigJay180 said:


> Time for an update:
> 
> I've been out of town all month save say two days.
> 
> ...


Wow that looks good


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Dead2fall said:


> Beautiful tank!





klibs said:


> Wow that looks good


Thanks! I wish I could take credit for it. But it did that without me.

I picked up a pair of Australian rainbows! They look amazing with the bright yellow dotted lines, absolutely beautiful fish.

Bump:


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Update: tank is still doing amazing, I changed 80% of the water today, and dosed a healthy amount of nitrates, phosphates, and potassium. I also added a pack of root tabs, like I do every other week.

Bosemani Rainbows are the most beautiful freshwater fish IMO. Their colors rival even saltwater species.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

What kind of root tabs are you adding a pack of every 2 weeks?

Most I've seen last 3 months or more.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

This Aussie rainbow is a close second in looks, I love the yellow stripes, and shimmering blue dots. He 'owns' the side of the tank with big ball of Java fern and red ludwigia (trimmed today, it was at the top).

The ocelot sword at the bottom is one of my favorites, I love the rusty red color of the new leaves. It really 'Reds' up with root tabs that contain iron.

I had a little tiny bit of algae, mostly green on the glass that came off with an old credit card and paper towel.

Bump:


Maechael said:


> What kind of root tabs are you adding a pack of every 2 weeks?
> 
> Most I've seen last 3 months or more.


I switch between API for NPK, and Seachem fourish tabs for trace.

Adding 10 every 2-3 weeks makes up for the fact that the tank is 180 gallons and probably needs 50 every three months. It's six and a half dozen.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Fair enough, never know on here haha, especially when the titles say what they say.
Do you place them by quadrants, section, other approach?


Also, beautiful tank should have led with that.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Here's the other half, with my red temple reineckii plants and wisteria weeds. I love the sharp purple under leaf color, it's beauty challenges the bright SPS corals I used to keep. All they want is a little fertilizer, light, and fish waste.

The wisteria is to soak up nutrients and kill algae, it also makes the dither fish stay in the open places more often. If they feel threatened they hide in the dense foliage.

Up front I have two foreground swords, a melon, rosette, and some Anubias. The panda cories live under the wood there and love swimming through the plants at the entrance. They made two babies in there, but sadly I couldn't get a pic of them.

Bump:


Maechael said:


> Fair enough, never know on here haha, especially when the titles say what they say.
> Do you place them by quadrants, section, other approach?
> 
> 
> Also, beautiful tank should have led with that.


Thanks! Nothing so organized.

I go "by plant" and fertilize the ones that either look like they could use it, or that I can't remember the last time that I fertilized. I also fertilize new fresh root tabs whenever I move something to help it survive the move.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Ok, interesting method if nothing else.
Taking notes for future use of my own 110 gallon.


Thoughts on using CSMB+ type ferts under plants? Imagine it would be much cheaper than flourish tabs.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Maechael said:


> Ok, interesting method if nothing else.
> Taking notes for future use of my own 110 gallon.
> 
> 
> Thoughts on using CSMB+ type ferts under plants? Imagine it would be much cheaper than flourish tabs.


I use dry water column ferts from greenleaf aquariums.com. That comes with the N, P, K, and Plantex CSM+B. It's dirt cheap for how long it lasts. I'm still not out six months in.

That works for the most part, but some plants are heavy root feeders (swords) thus the root tabs help some. 

I also keep some flourish iron and add a little the day after a water change because of all the red plants (ludwigia and reineckii). It doesn't seem to hurt anything and the leaves stay bright red.


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## Maechael (Sep 9, 2012)

Sorry mixed up CSM+B with osmocote.

Meant osmocote root capsules, as they should be cheaper per unit than the flourish tabs.

Not sure how I managed to mess that count up haha.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Things are still going strong. i Just did an 80% water change, filled to half, and changed some more because of all the dead leaves at the bottom.

Here's me problem. Once upon a time, months ago, I could see the beautiful driftwood I had in the tank - that I paid dearly for. 

Then I added four or five spindly sprigs of Java fern, tied down with fishing wire. It looked terrible, because I had no idea how to do this right. Now I can't see the wood, and the Java fern is the size of a football. I have no idea how to trim this now!

Advice would be appreciated. I have no idea how this stuff is even secured to the wood!


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## Sky817 (Feb 25, 2015)

Nice rainbow.. How big are they?


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

You should pull the java fern off the wood and cut it at the rhizome. Then just use the bits with short leaves and sell the rest. I'll take the java off your hands! Haha


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Sky817 said:


> Nice rainbow.. How big are they?


They are between 2 and 3 inches. I'm unable to find any more good bosemani specimens. Not that I'm in a hurry.

It took me seven months to finally find a millennium red specimen worth of the name, I picked him up immediately. He's a gorgeous shade of red, no grey or missing scales. He also loves the 180 gallon space, and all of the plants he hides in.

Bump: Love the color on this one, and he started eating right away.

Bump:


Freemananana said:


> You should pull the java fern off the wood and cut it at the rhizome. Then just use the bits with short leaves and sell the rest. I'll take the java off your hands! Haha


I did cut some pieces off at the rhizome, just to keep surrounding plants from being left in the shade.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

such a nice tank  the rainbows look great!


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## Islandgaliam (May 24, 2014)

Incredibly awesome tank! Nice job


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Orange albino millennium. 

He's absolutely gorgeous, and even the female I bought is attractive looking, which is rare for rainbows.

Absolutely gorgeous, just as attractive as most salt water fish IMO.

Bump: Attachment. He doesn't sit still.


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## Hetzer (Sep 23, 2012)

Wow your plants and fish are beautiful!


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## JEden8 (Jan 5, 2011)

Beautiful tank Jay! Job well done! And your Boesemani's also look great!


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Thanks Jeden and Hetzer!

Here's my favorite fish. A big, gorgeous red millennium.


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

Just a quick update. The tank is still going fine. I made a few changes in the tank a few months back. I moved some things around and got rid of the huge Amazon sword in favor of some giant Hygro. At first I was unhappy with it, but it grew in just fine.

I haven't added any new fish other than a few ottos because I haven't seen any that I really wanted to add. I'm in no rush to fill the tank or overstock it.

Bump: The center is what I replanted, to make it more interesting than just one sword plant that took up half the tank. These plants were all so small a few months ago..

Bump: Added FTS


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## BigJay180 (Jul 20, 2014)

I'm still in the hobby, just decided to drop by and show everyone what low tech and a lot of patience can accomplish.

Here's the same tank during a water change refill. Plants are still growing. Over time some of the more delicate species were out-competed for space, lights, and nutrients. I let it happen for the most part, and put hardier things in there.

Some may not like it, but I'm happy. It took over a year for the tank to come this far.


Maintenance today: I changed out the 6500K bulbs with new ones, changed water, vacuumed out the mulm at the bottom, added some root tabs, added powdered ferts, and trimmed everything at the surface.

Over the last year and a half, I've resisted the temptation to put high tech lights, CO2, or EI dosing on this rig. I keep it slow, relaxed, and steady. The fish love it. I change water every two weeks and fertilize, but I don't let the hobby keep me hostage. I use excel sometimes, but half the time I forget to add it.

The most relaxing thing in the world is to take a nap while fish watching. Don't forget to relax guys and gals, that's what this is all about.


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