# Your best weapon against algae (if you don't use this already)...



## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Except excel is absolutely horrible for your plants and live stock, if you have to dose excel daily to keep algae at bay Then you have an Imbalance in the tank somewhere. Or not enough healthy growing plant mass to combat it 

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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> Except excel is absolutely horrible for your plants and live stock, if you have to dose excel daily to keep algae at bay Then you have an Imbalance in the tank somewhere. Or not enough healthy growing plant mass to combat it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


How is excel horrible for flora? It's marketed as a carbon source for plants. 

Sure, if you have to dump in gobs of it to control algae then it'll be a problem, but I've been adding 1.5X the recommended dose to all 4 of my aquariums since I've been in the hobby and I haven't seen negative consequences on fish, shrimp, or plants.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> How is excel horrible for flora? It's marketed as a carbon source for plants.
> 
> Sure, if you have to dump in gobs of it to control algae then it'll be a problem, but I've been adding 1.5X the recommended dose to all 4 of my aquariums since I've been in the hobby and I haven't seen negative consequences on fish, shrimp, or plants.


It is not a carbon source it's a scam, it's an algecide that actually starts breaking down the cell structure in your plants and live stock, people say "oh its helped my plants out alot" but it's literally just embalmed them. Co2 from Atmospheric equilibrium is 25x that of excel, meaning you get more co2 by not doing anything and you don't harm your plants, livestock or yourself. 

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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> It is not a carbon source it's a scam, it's an algecide that actually starts breaking down the cell structure in your plants and live stock, people say "oh its helped my plants out alot" but it's literally just embalmed them. Co2 from Atmospheric equilibrium is 25x that of excel, meaning you get more co2 by not doing anything and you don't harm your plants, livestock or yourself.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I'd be curious to see any evidence that, at the recommended dosage, excel results in increased morbidity or mortality for plants and/or animals. At this point, it's your anecdotal claim of harm vs. many other's anecdotal claim of benefit. 

A couple of months ago, I was considering setting up a SW tank and started watching BulkReefSupply's "BRSTv Investigates" series on youtube. Every week, they take a piece of "reef lore" and try, to the extent possible, to conduct rigorous experiments to test it. 

I would love to see someone do something like that for FW tanks.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> I'd be curious to see any evidence that, at the recommended dosage, excel results in increased morbidity or mortality for plants and/or animals. At this point, it's your anecdotal claim of harm vs. many other's anecdotal claim of benefit.
> 
> A couple of months ago, I was considering setting up a SW tank and started watching BulkReefSupply's "BRSTv Investigates" series on youtube. Every week, they take a piece of "reef lore" and try, to the extent possible, to conduct rigorous experiments to test it.
> 
> I would love to see someone do something like that for FW tanks.


Here you go, read away https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8FYCvd5hiS36ONwr6JAq0qJFOGfoGUl/view?usp=drivesdk

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## ProfessorDank (Jun 5, 2018)

I was always wondering if something like this existed but i never google searched it. How exactly does it work? How much liquid can it hold and is there two separate containers for my PPS Pro Micro and Macros?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Oh look: https://www.golias.net/akvaristika/docs/Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals.pdf

Turns out 2ppm NO3 is toxic to sensitive aquatic animals, yet we dose up to 40ppm.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Oh look: https://www.golias.net/akvaristika/docs/Nitrate toxicity to aquatic animals.pdf
> 
> Turns out 2ppm NO3 is toxic to sensitive aquatic animals, yet we dose up to 40ppm.


Actually there had been no testing done on the effect of nitrate to fish,wait I take that back it was done once and it took 900 ppm to kill fry, I'm not saying it's not okay to use it as a med once in a while but not every day. 

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

"Freshwater animals appear to be more sensitive to nitrate than marine animals. A nitrate
concentration of 10 mg NO3-N/l (USA federal maximum level for drinking water) can adversely affect, at least during
long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates (E. toletanus, E. echinosetosus, Cheumatopsyche pettiti, Hydropsyche occidentalis),
*fishes (Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha, Salmo clarki)*, and amphibians (Pseudacris triseriata,
Rana pipiens, Rana temporaria, Bufo bufo). Safe levels below this nitrate concentration are recommended to protect sensitive
freshwater animals from nitrate pollution. *Furthermore, a maximum level of 2 mg NO3-N/l would be appropriate
for protecting the most sensitive freshwater species. In the case of marine animals, a maximum level of 20 mg NO3-N/l
may in general be acceptable"*

Within the abstract of the paper I linked.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> "Freshwater animals appear to be more sensitive to nitrate than marine animals. A nitrate
> concentration of 10 mg NO3-N/l (USA federal maximum level for drinking water) can adversely affect, at least during
> long-term exposures, freshwater invertebrates (E. toletanus, E. echinosetosus, Cheumatopsyche pettiti, Hydropsyche occidentalis),
> *fishes (Oncorhynchus mykiss, Oncorhynchus tshawytscha, Salmo clarki)*, and amphibians (Pseudacris triseriata,
> ...


Which we don't have in Our aquariums? 

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## kushy04 (Mar 27, 2018)

p0tluck said:


> Except excel is absolutely horrible for your plants and live stock, if you have to dose excel daily to keep algae at bay Then you have an Imbalance in the tank somewhere. Or not enough healthy growing plant mass to combat it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Ok, but my original post (which assumes no imbalance in light and co2 but does assume imbalance in ferts) is about fighting algae by using an autodosing pump with the assumption that light is good and co2 is consistent (solenoid with DKH solution), both of which are easier to maintain than fert levels. If you are still having issues, using a pump to create that stability is key. I will never hand measure my ferts again nor do i have to worry about laziness and forgetting to add ferts.

Bump:


p0tluck said:


> Except excel is absolutely horrible for your plants and live stock, if you have to dose excel daily to keep algae at bay Then you have an Imbalance in the tank somewhere. Or not enough healthy growing plant mass to combat it
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk





Seachem Website said:


> The reason plants need CO2 is to produce longer chain carbon compounds also known as photosynthetic intermediates. Photosynthetic intermediates includes compounds such as ribulose 1,5-bisphosphate, and 2-carboxy-3-keto-D-arabinitol 1,5 bisphosphate. Although the names are complicated, the structures are quite simple (5 carbon chains). Flourish Excel™ does not contain these specific compounds per se, but one that is quite similar. By dosing with Flourish Excel™ you bypass the involvement of CO2 and introduce the already finished, structurally similar compounds. It is in its structural similarity that Flourish Excel™ is able to be utilized in the carbon chain building process of photosynthesis.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

kushy04 said:


> Ok, but my original post (which assumes no imbalance in light and co2 but does assume imbalance in ferts) is about fighting algae by using an autodosing pump with the assumption that light is good and co2 is consistent (solenoid with DKH solution), both of which are easier to maintain than fert levels. If you are still having issues, using a pump to create that stability is key. I will never hand measure my ferts again nor do i have to worry about laziness and forgetting to add ferts.


You talking about something like this, it's not my tank BTW just someone that's super high tech.









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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> Here you go, read away https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8FYCvd5hiS36ONwr6JAq0qJFOGfoGUl/view?usp=drivesdk
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I'm not sure that really shows what you think it does. Sure, that paper reports a number of LC50 and EC50 values, as well as NOECs (no observed effect concentration), but compared to the levels we typically dose our tanks to, the claim that we're embalming or killing our flora and fauna seems to fall apart. 

Look at Table 1 where the authors list out previously calculated toxicity values. If we limit ourselves to NOECs (concentrations where no effect was observed), we get values of 0.042 mg/L for primary producers (algae), 0.029 mg/L for primary consumers (daphnia, rotifers, etc.) [this value seems to be an outlier, next lowest is 0.16 mg/L), and 1.3 mg/L for secondary consumers (fish). 

For Excel, Seachem recommends a dose of 5 mL/200L working out to a dose of 1 mL/40L or 0.025 mL/L. Assuming that the density of gluteraldehyde is reasonably similar to water (1.06 g/mL vs. 0.997 g/mL), we can approximate that 1 mL/L ~ 1 mg/L. So, we're looking at a dose of Excel that is 1.68-fold, 1.16-fold (or 6.4-fold), and 52-fold lower than the NOECs reported in Table 1. 

Now, look at Table 3 that reports EC10 values (concentration to elicit at 10% response in the effect being observed). [Typically, in risk assessment, dose-response analyses using dose-response modeling, rather than simply identifying NOELs/NOECs, is preferred.] Here, if we look at the lower confidence limits, the lowest one is 0.3 mg/L. So, even here, we're looking at a dose 12-fold higher than a typical dose of Excel in the FW aquarium.

So, yes, Excel will kill fish, but typically only at doses astronomically higher than those in the FW aquarium. Interestingly (not surprising), it seems that Excel kills algae at much lower concentrations that approach the recommended dosage of the chemical.

Also, that paper is completely silent on any harm Excel does to plants (unless I missed it). ***Nevermind, L. minor is duckweed. D'OH!!***


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## kushy04 (Mar 27, 2018)

p0tluck said:


> You talking about something like this, it's not my tank BTW just someone that's super high tech.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does that picture have anything to do with this post or what I've said? Also, why are you here? lol

Bump:


p0tluck said:


> Here you go, read away https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8FYCvd5hiS36ONwr6JAq0qJFOGfoGUl/view?usp=drivesdk
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


I quote from the article, "Thus, GA is moderately toxic (doses >1 mg/l) to aquatic organisms..." but we don't dose that much, if you follow the instructions on the bottle, the concentration OF A CORRECT DOSE is 1/40 of that toxic level.

Bump:


ProfessorDank said:


> I was always wondering if something like this existed but i never google searched it. How exactly does it work? How much liquid can it hold and is there two separate containers for my PPS Pro Micro and Macros?


You connect tubing to both sides of the pump. It draws fert from whatever container that tubing is placed in and delivers it based on a programmable schedule, up to 24 times daily between 1mL to 9999mL doses. It also provides options to alternate days if you wish. I personally just mixed everything together in one bottle and dose daily


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I’ve never really seen or noticed any real direcf parallel to exact fert dosing and algae control. I entire premise of EI Dosing is Estimative and doesn’t rely on exact dosing to keep algae away. For the most part making sure you dont run out of anything is most important.

Actually everyday your plants grow you would be technically needing to change the dosing amount anyway.

As far as excel, it might be somewhat misleading but it does help planfs grow and certain plants survive that wouldnt if it wasnt dosed. No comparison to co2, but if not over-dosed does help with growth.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

The one example I always point to for Excel being bad or not, is my experience with Excel killing Anacharis and Moss at low dosages.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

My whole point is over an accumulated time of dosing no matter the amount you dose it is harmful to plants and fish by the cellular level, sometimes its immidiate, dose excel In a Val tank and get back to Me,not to mention you're wasting you're money, as it does not help plants grow, there's not one thing in it that is beneficial on enough scale to justify using it, at a recommended dose it adds 2.2 ppm carbon over a 10 hour period where doing nothing would add 25x that via atmospheric pressure, just save up $200 bucks buy a co2 setup, yes co2 can kill your fish too if not setup correctly, but use excel as you would a medicine not a preventative as it doesn't help plants grow it actually breaks them down over time. 

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## ShepherdOfShrimp (May 13, 2018)

Odd. In a small tank as mine (5 gallon), it seems to be at least keeping some algae at bay and helping my plants grow healthy. I think the point is here is at concentrations suggested, excel does more good to the plants than bad.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

ShepherdOfShrimp said:


> Odd. In a small tank as mine (5 gallon), it seems to be at least keeping some algae at bay and helping my plants grow healthy. I think the point is here is at concentrations suggested, excel does more good to the plants than bad.


I'll. Let you think that, if you have algae it's because if an Imbalance as a correctly balanced tank with healthy fast growing stem plants will starve the algae not allowing it to take foot hold, excel dosed daily in low amounts is actually worse than one bigger dose 1 x a week as it builds up In the system and water changes do not remove all of it, a little bit of algae is actually a good thing in a low tech tank tbh, it's when it explodes it's an issue. 

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

p0tluck said:


> My whole point is over an accumulated time of dosing no matter the amount you dose it is harmful to plants and fish by the cellular level, sometimes its immidiate, dude excel. In a Val tank abd get back to Me,not to mention your wasting you're money, as it did not help plants grow, there's not one thing in it that is beneficial, at a recommended dose it adds 2.2 ppm carbon over a 10 hour period where doing nothing would add 25x that via atmospheric pressure, just save up 200 bucks buy a co2 setup, yes co2 can kill your fish too if not setup correctly, but use excel as you would a medicine not a preventative as it didn't help plants grow period.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


The vast majority of people know that Excel can possibly melt vals / anacharis / mosses. 

It is not a carbon source, it is an algaecide that degrades protein layers on plant leaves, thus allowing them to better utilize the CO2 that is in the water. CO2 concentrations/equilibrium of tank water are far far lower than atmospheric levels. So any CO2 that is produced by the degradation of Excel WILL add SOME CO2, just very very small traces. 

The main benefit is HELPING plants better utilize things. It definitely helps plants grow, I'm not sure where you keep getting your information that says it hurts plants rather than helps them. If the science was there, I'm positive the team over at Seachem would not sell it for use in planted tanks. 

What about people who don't want CO2? I certainly am running tanks without CO2. Not because I can't afford it, but because I want no CO2 on those tanks. Excel helps my plants, so I will use it as directed for both plant benefit AND and an algaecide.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

p0tluck said:


> My whole point is over an accumulated time of dosing no matter the amount you dose it is harmful to plants and fish by the cellular level, sometimes its immidiate, dose excel In a Val tank and get back to Me,not to mention you're wasting you're money, as it does not help plants grow, there's not one thing in it that is beneficial on enough scale to justify using it, at a recommended dose it adds 2.2 ppm carbon over a 10 hour period where doing nothing would add 25x that via atmospheric pressure, just save up $200 bucks buy a co2 setup, yes co2 can kill your fish too if not setup correctly, but use excel as you would a medicine not a preventative as it doesn't help plants grow it actually breaks them down over time.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Thousands upon thousands of users over the last 12 years or so would disagree with you. Are they hallucinating?


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

asteriod said:


> Thousands upon thousands of users over the last 12 years or so would disagree with you. Are they hallucinating?


Yep. They've been breathing that poison for so long they actually believe they're seeing positive growth. >


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> I'm not sure that really shows what you think it does...


This. People reference this all the time reading "toxicity of glutaraldhehyde"*(!!!)* not understanding how toxicity studies are done or the results. Which basically conclude that it's not very toxic.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

madcrafted said:


> asteriod said:
> 
> 
> > Thousands upon thousands of users over the last 12 years or so would disagree with you. Are they hallucinating?
> ...


Funny!!!

I mean im not a big fan of glut/excel but it does come in useful for certain setups that aren’t plant heavy since it does act as an algaecide not like Co2.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Your best weapon against algae is not listening to a thing potluck has to say!!!


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

MCFC said:


> Your best weapon against algae is not listening to a thing potluck has to say!!!


I don't have algae anymore thank you though as I reversed everything you suggested 

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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

aubie98 said:


> Look at Table 1 where the authors list out previously calculated toxicity values. If we limit ourselves to NOECs (concentrations where no effect was observed), we get values of 0.042 mg/L for primary producers (algae), 0.029 mg/L for primary consumers (daphnia, rotifers, etc.) [this value seems to be an outlier, next lowest is 0.16 mg/L), and 1.3 mg/L for secondary consumers (fish).
> 
> For Excel, Seachem recommends a dose of 5 mL/200L working out to a dose of 1 mL/40L or 0.025 mL/L. Assuming that the density of gluteraldehyde is reasonably similar to water (1.06 g/mL vs. 0.997 g/mL), we can approximate that 1 mL/L ~ 1 mg/L. So, we're looking at a dose of Excel that is 1.68-fold, 1.16-fold (or 6.4-fold), and 52-fold lower than the NOECs reported in Table 1.



I'm with you in that it's not easy to predict what is the toxic dose in an aquarium. You have many binding spots, degrading organisms, organics... a dose which will melt the plant is a sterile cup might do nothing in a real life aquarium.

However, for future reference 1mL water ~= 1g not 1mg. (1L ~=1kg; 1000ml~=1000g) So a dose of 0.025ml/L would be ~=0.025g/L~=25mg/L. Excel is not 100% gluteraldehyde, but since the manufacturer does not provide a breakdown of ingredients and conc. , we now start to speculate what and how much.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

While we're on the glute topic;

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1278079-40b-crash.html


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

dukydaf said:


> I'm with you in that it's not easy to predict what is the toxic dose in an aquarium. You have many binding spots, degrading organisms, organics... a dose which will melt the plant is a sterile cup might do nothing in a real life aquarium.
> 
> However, for future reference 1mL water ~= 1g not 1mg. (1L ~=1kg; 1000ml~=1000g) So a dose of 0.025ml/L would be ~=0.025g/L~=25mg/L. Excel is not 100% gluteraldehyde, but since the manufacturer does not provide a breakdown of ingredients and conc. , we now start to speculate what and how much.


oops. thanks for catching my mistake. That definitely throws off my fold comparisons.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

MCFC said:


> Your best weapon against algae is not listening to a thing potluck has to say!!!


And BTW I wasn't giving advice on how to remove algae I was giving advice on the effects of glut to plants and fish, I fixed my algae issue by Increasing my light and adding fast growing stems. As you all had me running my light so low plants weren't growing but algae was, no need to be a troll. 

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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

@ShepherdOfShrimp I'd say it does less harm to most plants than algae. I wouldn't say it does any good for plants. My non-CO2, non-excel tanks pearl daily.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

@p0tluck I don't believe in lowering light intensity. If anything, I increase my light output and my plants seem to enjoy it more and I don't have problematic algae growth. The focus on killing algae is misguided. It's much better to ensure the plants are growing healthily and the tank overall is clean with maintenance and husbandry. Not all, but a lot of people, I believe try to skip out on water changes and other maintenance tasks, and instead want Excel to kill off their algal problems. 

However, here I believe OP was talking mostly about using Excel as a CO2 additive, of which it does not do at all or at least at significant levels. Quag could be correct in that it helps plants to take in CO2, but I doubt that claim a bit. One - evidence. Two - my low tech tanks without CO2 or Excel (Just ferts that I mix DIY), pearl daily and plants are healthy. One tech is regular organic soil with sand cap, and the other is just inert PFS. Both tanks pearl daily.

So in a low tech environment, I think adding excel really is pointless, if the aim is to add an 'alternative carbon source'. It could be an alternative source, but is it viable and/or significant? 

We're all going off our anecdotal experiences of course without robust scientific investigation, but that's all we have really.

Edit: That said, Excel will of course reduce algae growth in aquariums. It's more of a last resort for me though. I rely on regular and consistent maintenance.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

swarley said:


> @p0tluck I don't believe in lowering light intensity. If anything, I increase my light output and my plants seem to enjoy it more and I don't have problematic algae growth. The focus on killing algae is misguided. It's much better to ensure the plants are growing healthily and the tank overall is clean with maintenance and husbandry. Not all, but a lot of people, I believe try to skip out on water changes and other maintenance tasks, and instead want Excel to kill off their algal problems.
> 
> However, here I believe OP was talking mostly about using Excel as a CO2 additive, of which it does not do at all or at least at significant levels. Quag could be correct in that it helps plants to take in CO2, but I doubt that claim a bit. One - evidence. Two - my low tech tanks without CO2 or Excel (Just ferts that I mix DIY), pearl daily and plants are healthy. One tech is regular organic soil with sand cap, and the other is just inert PFS. Both tanks pearl daily.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know what quag was saying, and I know excel is not a carbon source, what I dislike is I simply tried explaining it to be damaging to fish and plants if used daily and I have people trying to degrade me for it. 

and that's exactly what happened, I was told to lower my lights in a previous post I made about me having bga and my bga got worse because my plants stopped growing,stunting,becoming very unhealthy, I literally just topped off my L. Repens and replanted 3" pieces because I lost every lower leaves and only had the top sections left, probably won't grow but worth a try. 

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## fishfood!! (Jun 9, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> I'd be curious to see any evidence that, at the recommended dosage, excel results in increased morbidity or mortality for plants and/or animals. At this point, it's your anecdotal claim of harm vs. many other's anecdotal claim of benefit.
> 
> A couple of months ago, I was considering setting up a SW tank and started watching BulkReefSupply's "BRSTv Investigates" series on youtube. Every week, they take a piece of "reef lore" and try, to the extent possible, to conduct rigorous experiments to test it.
> 
> I would love to see someone do something like that for FW tanks.




Excel affects snails for sure. My didn’t eat or move and just sat there until I stopped dosing. 


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

fishfood!! said:


> Excel affects snails for sure. My didn’t eat or move and just sat there until I stopped dosing.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


again, anecdotal evidence vs. anecdotal evidence. I have nerites and MTS in all my tanks and they couldn't be happier. Nerites are constantly laying eggs and the MTS breed like crazy.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

kushy04 said:


> If any readers here are having issues with algae and you have good light, consistent CO2 (not DIY because CO2 instability can cause algae also), and still have algae, I urge you to look into a dosing pump and dose daily.


Glad your tank is algae free, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with dosing daily with a pump.

You might be surprised to know that there are quite a few of us now front loading all or most macros right after a water change. Quite the opposite of what you suggesting. Based on your statement all of these tanks should be full of algae, but that just isn't so.

And it might interest you to know that with most tanks daily dosing actually leads to an accumulation throughout the week. That is levels start low and peak before water change. Not really stable.

The idea some of us have been experimenting with is trying to keep a steady level of ferts throughout the week. Much depends on fish load and plant uptake, but for many results have been beneficial.

And I do agree with your thoughts on stability. Tanks don't like big changes. Steady light, CO2, and ferts are appreciated. But I don't think anyone here is going to get a dosing pump and eliminate algae if they have it.


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## Shazwazer (Jan 28, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Glad your tank is algae free, but I highly doubt it has anything to do with dosing daily with a pump.
> 
> You might be surprised to know that there are quite a few of us now front loading all or most macros right after a water change. Quite the opposite of what you suggesting. Based on your statement all of these tanks should be full of algae, but that just isn't so.
> 
> ...



Not to drift off topic but i thought i read somewhere that dosing ferts after a water change where you have used a tap water stabilizer is counter productive since the tap water stabilizer neutralizes a lot of the heavy metals that are being dosed. Does anyone know if there is any merit to that?


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> again, anecdotal evidence vs. anecdotal evidence. I have nerites and MTS in all my tanks and they couldn't be happier. Nerites are constantly laying eggs and the MTS breed like crazy.


This whole entire hobby is anecdotal sprinkled in with a little placebo effect. Take it all with a grain of salt. I've used Seachem Exhale in the past at higher than regular doses and didn't kill anything. I've also dosed pure ammonia in a tank with nerites at levels up to 1 ppm and it didn't kill them. I've had taiwan bee tanks with nitrate levels around 20 ppm for weeks and nobody died (supposedly 10 ppm is too much for these "sensitive" creatures). I've grown out a nice HC carpet in soft, acidic water without CO2 or Exhale. I could go on and on with examples. The best way to determine if something works is to test for yourselves. That's the only way you'll know for sure.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Yep. Way too many variables to really say what caused some desired or undesired effects. Mostly a guessing game and trying our best as a community to come up with something vaguely cohesive. I have noticed there are a few groups of people that adhere to different fundamental rules/guidelines and they all work. It all depends on each person's situation and tank.


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## fishfood!! (Jun 9, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> again, anecdotal evidence vs. anecdotal evidence. I have nerites and MTS in all my tanks and they couldn't be happier. Nerites are constantly laying eggs and the MTS breed like crazy.




Don’t you find it odd Seachem did not put snails as one of the safe to use with on the instruction label? It reads safe with shrimp but doesn’t mention snails. 

Without reading too much into that and a warning that is in all caps not to overdose - I continued to use excel like all others do. 

What prompted me to stop is, when I did a spot treatment that was a few inches away from a snail, the snail closed up immediately like it was being attacked.

Yeah sure it’s all anecdotal, but so are most research papers, most are inconclusive and only suggests or recommends.

Breeding isn’t absolutely a sign of happiness either. I know someone who keeps up to 15 guppies at one time in a flat ceramic bowl that can’t be bigger than 2 gallons with no real filter except a small pump acting as a water fall. The guppies breed all the time, and based on the 1 inch per gallon rule, they must be very unhappy right?


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## ShepherdOfShrimp (May 13, 2018)

p0tluck said:


> I'll. Let you think that, if you have algae it's because if an Imbalance as a correctly balanced tank with healthy fast growing stem plants will starve the algae not allowing it to take foot hold, excel dosed daily in low amounts is actually worse than one bigger dose 1 x a week as it builds up In the system and water changes do not remove all of it, a little bit of algae is actually a good thing in a low tech tank tbh, it's when it explodes it's an issue.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Sure. Doesn't glutaraldehyde get decomposed in roughly 24 hours?


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

ShepherdOfShrimp said:


> Sure. Doesn't glutaraldehyde get decomposed in roughly 24 hours?


Half life is 11 hours 24 hours for full breakdown, but if they are dosing the tank everyday there really isn't any breakdown because it's always being added to the tank, I got my info from Tom Barr on his Barr report so if people wanna question my numbers you can question him.

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...share_tid=10194&share_fid=108207&share_type=t

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

He even has an article on auto dosing as the Op of this topic is talking about, yw. 

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## kushy04 (Mar 27, 2018)

*This thread has been derailed by a few wannabe know-it-alls, lol RIP*


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

kushy04 said:


> *This thread has been derailed by a few wannabe know-it-alls, lol RIP*


Not derailed just doesnt need dosed if you have a balanced tank, good husbandry, healthy plants, good clean up crew and have balance as balance is the most important.

I admit I have used it but only as a med even I really didn't need to as a bit of algae is actually good for a tank, not on an everyday basis, my plants actually did worse using it as far as growing wise.

Excel w/thrive, yes I had ich in this Pic due to me not quarantining a new fish as my qt tank was taken out by a TV remote 

https://i.imgur.com/RIY3pij.jpg
Same plant without excel

https://i.imgur.com/StdHdol.jpg

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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Uhhh to be honest that just looks like the plant had some time to grow unless you're saying it stayed small like that for months while you were dosing glut or something. Combined with a host of other variables like you said you upped the lights etc? Also I find many plants grow like crap until they get established and then suddenly they are monstrous growers in what would otherwise be the same conditions...

Not saying you're wrong but I don't think those pics really prove anything.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Wobblebonk said:


> Uhhh to be honest that just looks like the plant had some time to grow unless you're saying it stayed small like that for months while you were dosing glut or something. Combined with a host of other variables like you said you upped the lights etc? Also I find many plants grow like crap until they get established and then suddenly they are monstrous growers in what would otherwise be the same conditions...
> 
> Not saying you're wrong but I don't think those pics really prove anything.


Was way before I changed my light, that Amazon has been In My tank for a long time but I never gave up, I was dosing 5 ml excel 2x a week and thrive once a week, that Pic is actually still with my old light, even I stopped dosing excel I noticed it started getting new leaves, I asked a plant guru and they stated it was cause the plant was actually embalmed from the glut, now with the new light my plants consume so much nutrients from. Being pushed by the light im actually going to have to switch over to dry ferts from Nilcog as dosing thrive at a mass amount per week gets expensive really fast, I'm actually getting defiencies now and will only get worse once my water sprite and wisteria takes off, this hobby is a nightmare lol. 

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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

p0tluck said:


> Not derailed just doesnt need dosed if you have a balanced tank, good husbandry, healthy plants, good clean up crew and have balance as balance is the most important.


The original post was about stability in dosing. That your reply above was saying the conversation wasn't derailed and then jump directly back into talking about excel, is pretty ironic.

The picture of your plant that has grown over time isn't really useful for anything either. If you had two identical setups with similar plants and dosed excel in one and not in the other, that would be more interesting.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

UbbeDall said:


> The original post was about stability in dosing. That your reply above was saying the conversation wasn't derailed and then jump directly back into talking about excel, is pretty ironic.
> 
> The picture of your plant that has grown over time isn't really useful for anything either. If you had two identical setups with similar plants and dosed excel in one and not in the other, that would be more interesting.


No the post was about using a dosing pump hooked up to excel, macros and micros, the ferts are fine but excel dosed at 1 ml daily builds up and will harm the fish and plants plain and simple, the Op can do what he wants to do is not my tank, but after reading very thorough experiments with excel the scientific proof of its detrimental affects turns me away from it. 

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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

UbbeDall said:


> The picture of your plant that has grown over time isn't really useful for anything either. If you had two identical setups with similar plants and dosed excel in one and not in the other, that would be more interesting.


I know someone here has done that. I actually have as well on a small two small setups. If I can find it I will post a pic. It confirms that it does assist in growth.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Quagulator said:


> The vast majority of people know that Excel can possibly melt vals / anacharis / mosses.


 Anybody knows why this disinfectant / biocide / sterilant / warts removal / irritant / Excel is killing some plant species?


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

p0tluck said:


> No the post was about using a dosing pump hooked up to excel, macros and micros, the ferts are fine but excel dosed at 1 ml daily builds up and will harm the fish and plants plain and simple, the Op can do what he wants to do is not my tank, but after reading very thorough experiments with excel the scientific proof of its detrimental affects turns me away from it.


How can you disagree with me saying the initial post is about stability, and not excel specifically... :icon_eek:

The initial post literally starts out like this:
_"Your best weapon against algae (if you don't use this already)...
STABILITY STABILITY STABILITY..."
_
And ends with:
_"I'm not trying to endorse any specific product"_


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

p0tluck said:


> You talking about something like this, it's not my tank BTW just someone that's super high tech.


That's a lot of "tech" for what's inside the tank. As impressive as a bicycle with a jet engine.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

OVT said:


> That's a lot of "tech" for what's inside the tank. As impressive as a bicycle with a jet engine.


Just goes to show that you can make this hobby as simple or as complicated as you want. There's still an entire wall of GDA on the left side. Just sayin'.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

OVT said:


> That's a lot of "tech" for what's inside the tank. As impressive as a bicycle with a jet engine.


Lol, I think it's more ocd than anything it's impressive at how much detail is in that cabinet and tank, overkill tbh 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> Just goes to show that you can make this hobby as simple or as complicated as you want. There's still an entire wall of GDA on the left side. Just sayin'.


I just think he has to much money to spend, I don't remember where I got good Pic from, it's ocd and all the gadgets takes the fun away from the hobby, Call me dumb or whatever but I enjoy getting my sleeves wet and learning. 

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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Well I'm gonna be real lazy and try to use a perfume spray bottle to spray met14 in very small quanitities directly on herpes(duckweed). Don't try to tell me there's an imbalance causing my duckweed :O 

because that's what I learned from this thread... glut solution could posisbly be like holy water for duckweed. I'm just gonna directly spray it on and leave it. Don't you worry I'll wear gloves and a mask (I have one rated for strong construction solvents and such)


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

kushy04 said:


> STABILITY STABILITY STABILITY...


Agreed, true for reef tanks as well.

Speaking of liquid carbon, right now i am trying FlorinAxis, which is made of citric acid, citrates and other products (no glut). It goes well in my tank, good growth, not much algae, some bba.

Michel.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

micheljq said:


> Agreed, true for reef tanks as well.
> 
> Speaking of liquid carbon, right now i am trying FlorinAxis, which is made of citric acid, citrates and other products (no glut). It goes well in my tank, good growth, not much algae, some bba.
> 
> Michel.


Yes nilcog just released a new fert with Citric acid, there's a form of dyi co2 that's Citric acid and baking soda 

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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

micheljq said:


> Agreed, true for reef tanks as well.
> 
> Speaking of liquid carbon, right now i am trying FlorinAxis, which is made of citric acid, citrates and other products (no glut). It goes well in my tank, good growth, not much algae, some bba.
> 
> Michel.


Will be interested to hear of your results - adding it, then taking it away, then adding it again. It's a play on capitalizing on the Krebs cycle. I tried it when I had a low tech setup a few years ago and went through the add-subtract-add test, but couldn't see any change. Added Excel and saw a noticeable change. With Excel, fish never died, never grew two heads and plants were fine for years. Even was able to keep Anacharis (Egeria) alive.


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## jprime84 (Oct 23, 2009)

tldr, but I did melt all of my Anacharis with high doses of Excel within two or three days. It also seemed to have a big impact on the duckweed mat in my shrimp tank and all of the roots fell off of the plants.

That said, no loss of fish or shrimp, the algae is gone, and the plants are recuperating.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

What i dislike of Excel, but i am not an Excel's rager. I did use Excel for years, it's the smell, the contact with skin, the yellowish stains it can leave on the furnitures, on the bottom of the bottle or near the nozzle.

Michel


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

jprime84 said:


> tldr, but I did melt all of my Anacharis with high doses of Excel within two or three days. It also seemed to have a big impact on the duckweed mat in my shrimp tank and all of the roots fell off of the plants.


I wish it would kill my duckweed..  also tried dosing some directly on my java moss, didn't seem to do too much - was hoping to kill that off too.


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## Tyrant46290 (Jul 21, 2018)

UbbeDall said:


> I wish it would kill my duckweed.. <a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/smilie/icon_sad.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Sad" ></a> also tried dosing some directly on my java moss, didn't seem to do too much - was hoping to kill that off too.


Feel free to send me your unwanted java moss


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## Tyrant46290 (Jul 21, 2018)

After all of this arguing, a new algae will form, get into farms of plants, into tanks, and will be immune to everything anyways


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