# Anyone have a LED build they can pass on easily



## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

Hey, you can check out my build, a bit smaller (36") here :

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=796090

Lens will also depend on how high from the top of the tank you plan on mounting it. It would be a good idea to sketch it out to figure out which lens to go with. Also, how many rows of lights.. Keep in mind, on a 60º lens, majority of the light will be within the centre 30º.

The other colours help to adjust the overall colour profile to what you want it to be, and are fun to play with since you can dim them.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I see yours is only 16 leds, am I out of the ball park thinking I need in the 30's? I have the center brace in the way, I could skip 3 in the middle. Yours ony has one row, but I bet your tank is narrower. Perhaps only two rows?

The three leds with "three-all-together-leds" are just for appearance?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> I see yours is only 16 leds, am I out of the ball park thinking I need in the 30's? I have the center brace in the way, I could skip 3 in the middle. Yours ony has one row, but I bet your tank is narrower. Perhaps only two rows?
> 
> The three leds with "three-all-together-leds" are just for appearance?


40B.. Wide, not as deep.. no optics.. (native 120)



















Normally light is flush to the top.
custom spectrum for Reefbreeders (not built)









Custom DSunY:









in action
http://youtu.be/lkq9rr8NQtc


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> I see yours is only 16 leds, am I out of the ball park thinking I need in the 30's? I have the center brace in the way, I could skip 3 in the middle. Yours ony has one row, but I bet your tank is narrower. Perhaps only two rows?
> 
> The three leds with "three-all-together-leds" are just for appearance?


Yes, 16 white LEDs, but I did go with the CREE XML2 (cw 412lm @ 1A) which have a higher/more efficient output compared to say the XT-E (cw 327lm @ 1A).

I went with a single row mostly due to the hinge location on my glass hood, ideally I would have gone with 2 to spread the light a bit better up top. My fixture sits directly on the glass top, which means the beam angle spreads from the centre - this leads to a bit less light in the top portion of the tank along the front and back.

If you can raise the fixture higher, then the light will be more even throughout the tank. Raising the light can allow you to go with a lower angle lens, if its close to the water, then a higher is better.

The OCW I added mostly for RGB light channels, so I could tweak the colour and add sunrise/sunset/moonlight settings when I hook my microcontroller up. Jeff did mention in my thread that they do hit the target for plant photosynthesis as well, but I admit I got lucky there and did not plan for that. 

What are the exact dimensions of the tank? Width of the centre brace? and how high off the top of the tank will you be mounting it?

I can take a crack at determining your lens angles possibly tonight or on Sunday if you provide me with that info.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

renesis said:


> Yes, 16 white LEDs, but I did go with the CREE XML2 (cw 412lm @ 1A) which have a higher/more efficient output compared to say the XT-E (cw 327lm @ 1A).
> 
> I went with a single row mostly due to the hinge location on my glass hood, ideally I would have gone with 2 to spread the light a bit better up top. My fixture sits directly on the glass top, which means the beam angle spreads from the centre - this leads to a bit less light in the top portion of the tank along the front and back.
> 
> ...



my tank is 18x48x22ish with a canopy that has 10" of head room. Leaving enough for a possible fan the light might end up 6-8" off the water. Thinner if I don't do the LEDmaker extrusion, I like jeff's aluminum rods if they get rid of heat well enough. I didn't want to run the led's at their highest output to keep a good lifespan. The first place I found for the LEDmaker extrusion would want nearly $200 just for the aluminum kit. Any place cheaper? The same place had the CREE led's for $6 a piece. So the led's alone will be nearly $200. The cost isn't a problem, but is this typical pricing?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> my tank is 18x48x22ish with a canopy that has 10" of head room. Leaving enough for a possible fan the light might end up 6-8" off the water. Thinner if I don't do the LEDmaker extrusion, I like jeff's aluminum rods if they get rid of heat well enough. I didn't want to run the led's at their highest output to keep a good lifespan. The first place I found for the LEDmaker extrusion would want nearly $200 just for the aluminum kit. Any place cheaper? The same place had the CREE led's for $6 a piece. So the led's alone will be nearly $200. The cost isn't a problem, but is this typical pricing?


Use Phillips..

http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-ES-COOL-WHITE-3-Watt-LEDs-8794102425.htm


> The finest Cool White LED on the market - Even superior to Cree LEDS (XM-L). XM-L consumes 2.90V at 700ma, Luxeons only consume 2.50!!
> 
> - Forward Voltage is 2.50V @ 700ma
> - Max current - 1000ma
> - Luminous Intensity - 351 Lumens minimum at 1000ma


Freshwater lights aren't near as demanding as Reefs.. $200 heat sinks are a luxury.. 

http://shop.stevesleds.com/Philips-Luxeon-M-6500K-12-Watt-LEDs-8794102504.htm




The above fixture runs about 110F (most "colors" at 1A) at the diodes w/ out a fan.
Cheaper fanned alternative.. 
http://shop.stevesleds.com/Aluminum-Heatsink-tubing-T6063-1-1-4-8794102413.htm

...


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

Here's what it would looked like with your parameters.

8" Above tank, rows are 6" apart. 60d lenses. I assumed the brace was 3" wide (probably less?), which puts the centre LEDs 8" apart, and the remaining are 3" apart. I only put in 2 rows to give you an idea.










From the side view, you can see the top front and top back portion of the tank is not lit by the brightest portion of the beam. The cones in the images are 30d to represent where the majority of the light intensity will be on a 60d lens.










Front view, more overlap is better of course, and less spill-out of the intense light portion is better. Keep in mind that a good portion will refract back into the tank off the glass.

From this, since you have the capability, I would probably go with the third row to get the extra coverage. If the light is too intense, you can always dim it down, better to have more and throttle it down anyway.

As for the heatsink, since you have a hood - no need to go pretty. I used extrusion since mine is sitting on the tank and always in plain sight (probably around $80-100 worth). An aluminum bar from the hardware store or square rod such as jeff posted of should work just fine for you.

HTH


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

very cool, yes the brace is about 3", thanks a bunch. I was starting to to think that building two separate lights might be the way to go, but like you say it's in a canopy so pretty isn't the issue. By the way, after looking around it I've found several mfgs that recommend a 75-80 deg lens angle, so the cones would spread a bit as shown, but I get the idea.

Another question, how is the color temperature of say 6500K related to wavelength? I see the cool white ranges from 5000-8300, what sets it to the desired 6500? Or is this the range, and the average is 6650K? So this doesn't change based on volts or current?

@renesis, I've been looking at your pics, nicely done. I like the tank layout as well. I see you have 5 channels, cw, ww, red, green, blue. I like that. what do you use to adjust this? I don't really see what you are using for the PWM. or how the user adjusts it.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> very cool, yes the brace is about 3", thanks a bunch. I was starting to to think that building two separate lights might be the way to go, but like you say it's in a canopy so pretty isn't the issue. By the way, after looking around it I've found several mfgs that recommend a 75-80 deg lens angle, so the cones would spread a bit as shown, but I get the idea.
> 
> So I've been seeing some drivers seem to only want 14 leds per driver. So even if I made two separate lights one driver isn't enough for even half (18 leds). I'm getting the feeling that channels are split up based on the max leds per string, so if the supply is 48V divided by 3V would say 16 max? They probably loose a couple so they aren't pushing the limits?
> 
> ...


Led's are "sorted" by electrical and visual properties.. 
So yes 6500K is a "range".. 
LED's do vary by current little, but it is considered more of a negative than a "feature"
The 12V thing.. no.. You could run constant voltage and series/parallel strings just like those 5 meter ribbons, but 1)more complicated and 2)not nearly as efficient (resistor losses) 


Ther are large voltage drivers (65 plus DC) that can do constant current for longer strings but a $7 a piece for LDD's it is not recommended.


The "relays" you see are LDD drivers..
They are controlled by a PWM signal from a controller/programmer..
This doen't show the PWM control








LDD's "lose" 3V so any output is restricted to Input (power supply) - 3V (ish)
In other words a 48V ps is effectively a 45V power supply.. Taking the LED v(f) at the current you want to drive them at is the number to use to calculate LED quantity..

Say at 1000mA the LED has a V(f) of 3.2V
Using a 48v ps (45) and a 1000mA drive.. 14 LED's max.. (44.8W)
Using a Luxeon ES deep red (660nm) at 700mA (2.3V(f)) you can run 19 LED's (30.59W)

using the above 2 strings would require a 48V ps @75.39W (1.57A) Add 10% overhead = 2A ps roughly (96W)

So amount depends on drive current and the V(f) of the diodes of your choice.

erroring on the side of 1 less LED than calculated isn't a bad "rule of thumb"..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> 40B.. Wide, not as deep.. no optics.. (native 120)


Jeff, how many channels do you have with this setup?
Do you string differing colors in the same string?
Why do you have all the reds on one side and blues on the other? why are these not mixed up like the other types?
It appears one picks a current to run at, is there a rule to this? Not max, etc...


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks Jeff, I'm understanding power supply/driver/led quantity sizing correctly. What I need more clarification is how the drivers are controlled. It appears this can be done 0-10v or PWM? This is performed using another device, any suggestions?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> Jeff, how many channels do you have with this setup?
> Do you string differing colors in the same string?
> Why do you have all the reds on one side and blues on the other? why are these not mixed up like the other types?
> It appears one picks a current to run at, is there a rule to this? Not max, etc...


4 channels.. breakdown as follows
ch1)14 LEDs (50/50 warm white 3500K/cool white 6500K)
ch2) 4 leds Cyan
ch3) 4 leds 660nm red
ch4 9 leds 5 cool white/ 4 royal blue
Having the whites on the outside creates a fairly easy mixing ability to avoid color bands. As well as having the whites in w/ the blues.. 

Personally I'd prefer a 5 channel controller but the typhon at $50 was good enough compared to the StormX at $100. an economic choice at the time. 
1)red
2)"green"
3)blue
4)warm white
5)cool white

Nothing you can't do w/ that..

The colors are approx clustered if you notice (RGB = W) and I don''t use lenses so 120 degree overlap angle..

You "pick" current based on the properties of th LED and your own design criteria. Diode effciency and heat generated being the 2 key ones.
Controllers and dimming allow a "looseness" to this..
If you find too much heat you just set a global "dim" at say 70%.. No it doesn't change the current.. Only changes the time the LED is lit. "pulse width" means just that.
The LED's still get 100% current but at say 50% dim.. only for 50% of the on time..Trickery.. 
Even 010V dimming can have a "pulse width" output.. Side note.

Bump:


kabendixen said:


> Let me run this by you guys, it would appear that this controller would satisfy 18 cree xml2 leds that take 1-2Amps (max3Amp) with around 3Volts. (or philips if I go that way)
> 
> The MagTech® LF1048-48-C1000 48-Watt Dimming LED Driver accepts 100~277VAC, and outputs a constant 1000mA current with a varying DC voltage between 30-52.8VDC. The dimming circuit works with 0-10V.
> 
> ...


you usually need a separate "Stable" 10V source and a pot to adjust the voltage..

Unless you want to spend hundreds on a controller such as the Apex
or you are content w/ manual adjustments.. Stay away from 10V dimming..

some drivers can do all 3 (0-10V, pot, or PWM)

I started w/ 10V dimmable drivers.. Quickly learned my lesson..

Magtech spec sheet states:


> 1-10V dimming control or use 10-100KΩ variable resistor


Again at $50/channel vs $50ps plus $7 (per channel) LDD..
Of course throwing in a 4 channel $50 controller bumps the economics up a bit..

Also consider failure and failure rates.. The AC/DC conversion the most likely failure spot.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

ahh, much more understanding obtained. I was was thinking the driver was the controller, looking at the storm's manual is making it much more clear what is going on.

So you obviously only use one controller. And considering the typhon if you had a desire for 5, but two of these are basically the same, say the cw and ww. One of the channels from the controller could run two drivers correct?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> ahh, much more understanding obtained. I was was thinking the driver was the controller, looking at the storm's manual is making it much more clear what is going on.
> 
> So you obviously only use one controller. And considering the typhon if you had a desire for 5, but two of these are basically the same, say the cw and ww. One of the channels from the controller could run two drivers correct?


you can run a LOT of LDD's from one Typhon channel
The LDD circuit demand is like 3mA. The channel limit is like 20-30mA
(ballpark and only relatively accurate)

The PWM circuit is very low tolerance but the LDD PWM drain is a lot lower..  

I don't normally (I'm sure a few may argue that point) "pump" products but the LDD's are pretty close to the ideal driver package..
There are output limits though. 1500mA is "the highest in the Ldd-L series.
And that series has a lower power supply voltage limit.
The LDD-H's go much higher PS wise but top out at 1000mA.

As to me, that light has a 56V PS.. thus 14 in series/one LDD.. @ 3.6 that is 14... 
Otherwise I would have had to add another LDD..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

looks like the 6 channel storm is only $65 now, $100 for the 16 channel version


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I've been sketching some concepts up, I haven't price shopped very hard, more look at the items. One thing I'm curious about is the differences between lumens at 350ma between the red-green-blue led's. Is the drivers I picked ok, considering this, or should the red be run higher and particularly the blue lower? maybe the blue and green at 500ma as well?

By the way, how do the lenses fasten to the led?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> looks like the 6 channel storm is only $65 now, $100 for the 16 channel version


spent some limited time w/ the spec sheet but the 6 channel is not 6 channels IF I remember correctly. There are "limitations" on 2 channels. "IF" you run the fan mode you lose 2 channels.. bringing you back to 4 channels..
Knowing me, and even though I don't like fans.. I'd want fans.. 

Anyways the StormX (16 channel) also has 12bit dimming instead of the usual 8. (finer steps).. not sure what "my" Typhon is at now. I uploaded a different program than the orig..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

yeah, I noted that about the 6 channel storm as well. I'm actually thinking the 16 channel could run other items as well. Like the CO2, maybe dosing pumps? just getting crazy...

So I can easily see the cost of my home built light around $500. It can clearly do more than just lights, and I like cool automation. Is this sort of a setup substantially worth more than something I could just buy? My rational is this is turning into more than just lighting...though I think this will probably be planted tank specific but by the time I think of changing buying new leds for another purpose really isn't an issue.

I guess I'm not finding something to buy out of the box that I like as much as this and the challenge is starting to be part of this as well.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> yeah, I noted that about the 6 channel storm as well. I'm actually thinking the 16 channel could run other items as well. Like the CO2, maybe dosing pumps? just getting crazy...
> 
> So I can easily see the cost of my home built light around $500. It can clearly do more than just lights, and I like cool automation. Is this sort of a setup substantially worth more than something I could just buy? My rational is this is turning into more than just lighting...though I think this will probably be planted tank specific but by the time I think of changing buying new leds for another purpose really isn't an issue.
> 
> I guess I'm not finding something to buy out of the box that I like as much as this and the challenge is starting to be part of this as well.


Well.... lets start w/ the numbers and go a bit on the high side..

StormX $95.43
Ldd 5 driver board $12
Ldd's ($8 each) $40
211W 48V Meanwell ps $47.80
Aluminum ($10/4ft) $40

$235 (Actually depending on luck ect. this could right off the bat be 1/2 that amount w/ little loss of crucial functionality) 

40 LED's @ 3 $120

$355 but no wireless as w/ the below:

Part of it is just getting exactly what you want and knowing how to fix it when you were wrong.. 
And one can cut corners as one sees fit.. Like 10/$10 3W flee bay emitters.


> *DSunY 72in. 2015 New Wifi LED Aquarium Tank Light For Freshwater Fish Plant Grow*
> 
> US $429.99


141510498482


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> @renesis, I've been looking at your pics, nicely done. I like the tank layout as well. I see you have 5 channels, cw, ww, red, green, blue. I like that. what do you use to adjust this? I don't really see what you are using for the PWM. or how the user adjusts it.


Jeff answered, but I'm currently using an Arduino UNO to supply the PWM signals, and using a lcd and a couple buttons to adjust values on each channel as I need.

I'll be switching over to a fully automated Tank Controller based on the Arduino DUE hopefully within the next week or two. This will get me the sunrise/sunset/moonlight fades, and custom lighting on the fly. I use the LDD-H series on the coralux breakout board, and the arduino PWM works perfectly on them. I have 8 bit control (0-255 brightness), and will be going to 12 bit on the arduino DUE (0-4095 brightness) per channel.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

renesis said:


> Jeff answered, but I'm currently using an Arduino UNO to supply the PWM signals, and using a lcd and a couple buttons to adjust values on each channel as I need.
> 
> I'll be switching over to a fully automated Tank Controller based on the Arduino DUE hopefully within the next week or two. This will get me the sunrise/sunset/moonlight fades, and custom lighting on the fly. I use the LDD-H series on the coralux breakout board, and the arduino PWM works perfectly on them. I have 8 bit control (0-255 brightness), and will be going to 12 bit on the arduino DUE (0-4095 brightness) per channel.


Interesting, the Arduino looks pretty versatile. I'm actually kind of excited to try this as well. It would be awesome to have inputs as well...now to think of a reason to use them  I've seen the functions look pretty straightforward c programming, I didn't see how the function off hand that "checks" the time etc...but I assume it's there. I might actually get this and start playing with it well beforehand. But the Due appears to be out of stock....never mind plenty on other sites. Ebay has what looks like the same thing for $20, is this the same thing? Is there only one mfg of the DUE, or is it a china knockoff? If so is there a mfg I should consider?

I find on ebay a mfg SainSmart that has red boards and a full kit to learn on for $50, and then I find a blue board for $50 with nothing included. Typical goofy pricing or get what you pay for? i now see these are arduino compatible, where did you get yours?

Is there a lcd display you would recommend? Looking at the software it appears memory is something to consider in programming, do you ever hit the memory limits on your last uno?

Where did you get those rgb leds all in one star?


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> Interesting, the Arduino looks pretty versatile. I'm actually kind of excited to try this as well. It would be awesome to have inputs as well...now to think of a reason to use them  I've seen the functions look pretty straightforward c programming, I didn't see how the function off hand that "checks" the time etc...but I assume it's there. I might actually get this and start playing with it well beforehand. But the Due appears to be out of stock....never mind plenty on other sites. Ebay has what looks like the same thing for $20, is this the same thing? Is there only one mfg of the DUE, or is it a china knockoff? If so is there a mfg I should consider?
> 
> I find on ebay a mfg SainSmart that has red boards and a full kit to learn on for $50, and then I find a blue board for $50 with nothing included. Typical goofy pricing or get what you pay for? i now see these are arduino compatible, where did you get yours?
> 
> ...


Arduino is the manufacturer of the DUE (Blue board), but I believe they are in a bit of a dispute right now, so boards might be on a bit of a backorder for the next little while, better to grab one while you can.

The other companies in China have knocked it off, but it is an open source platform, so all the files are readily available from Arduino. It will probably still work fine, but don't know much about these boards, or their longevity, but I believe others have been using them without much issue.

The new version of the Due has a real time clock built in, but no battery - its quite easy to add in a separate real time clock however. You will want to get a 'protoshield' as well so you can add extra items to it.

Have a look at these two threads, they started on the MEGA, which is fine too - Rob has switched over the DUE towards the end of the second thread. On the MEGA, especially if you incorporate a touchscreen, is going to run out of room real quick, DUE has a lot more, but has its own issues to deal with too.

Anotherhobby iAqua - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=677265 (Code is available)

Robsworld 5 - 7" - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=784562 (Rob says he should be releasing his code soon)

Also interesting is mistergreen's web controller, quite cool - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=576801 (still in progress)

I should be posting my project as well soon, DUE based.

I use the LDD-H series drivers which have a Vin for PWM min. of 2.5V, which works with the DUE as its a 3.3V system (UNO and MEGA are 5v). I'm not familiar with the LDD series, so you would have to check the specs to see if those will work with the Arduino.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

renesis said:


> I use the LDD-H series drivers which have a Vin for PWM min. of 2.5V, which works with the DUE as its a 3.3V system (UNO and MEGA are 5v). I'm not familiar with the LDD series, so you would have to check the specs to see if those will work with the Arduino.


The Typhon and I suspect all of them (Storm, DSunY) are really "Aduino" based..










It started out just like the projects here. 
http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/321511-typhon-based-led-controller-on-the-cheap-seriously/



> The hardware includes:
> 1) An ATMega processor (you could use the 168 or 328, the requirements are minimal).
> 2) basic "Arduino" hardware (crystal, caps, etc.)
> 3) Onboard 16x2 LCD
> ...


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1847680


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## flyfshrmn98 (Oct 20, 2011)

While you are looking at controllers, you should look into the new bluefish mini that comes out next month. The bluefish is used mainly by reefers but the mini is only going to be $100 and allow you to control 6 channels that can run tons of LDD drivers each and you can control it with your smartphone or tablet. It also allows you to pick a location in the world and do real weather simulation like thunderstorms, clouds, etc. I have been planning a LED build for my high tech 75 gallon and probably going to buy one. You could also look into higher output LEDs like the reef guys use such as the Bridgelux VERO series that put out well over 1000 lumens and end up using less of them. I bought several BXRA series LEDs to use in warm and cool white and going to mix in some reds, blues, and cyans


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

flyfshrmn98 said:


> While you are looking at controllers, you should look into the new bluefish mini that comes out next month. The bluefish is used mainly by reefers but the mini is only going to be $100 and allow you to control 6 channels that can run tons of LDD drivers each and you can control it with your smartphone or tablet. It also allows you to pick a location in the world and do real weather simulation like thunderstorms, clouds, etc. I have been planning a LED build for my high tech 75 gallon and probably going to buy one. You could also look into higher output LEDs like the reef guys use such as the Bridgelux VERO series that put out well over 1000 lumens and end up using less of them. I bought several BXRA series LEDs to use in warm and cool white and going to mix in some reds, blues, and cyans


That looks very promising.. (controller and light btw)
Not sure why they limit it to LDD-h's LDD-L's should work as well.. 

somebody is trying to talk me out of money again..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

renesis said:


> I should be posting my project as well soon, DUE based.
> 
> I use the LDD-H series drivers which have a Vin for PWM min. of 2.5V, which works with the DUE as its a 3.3V system (UNO and MEGA are 5v). I'm not familiar with the LDD series, so you would have to check the specs to see if those will work with the Arduino.


The statement below makes me think the "L" version won't work, i'll switch:
The LDD-L drivers can be dimmed using both a 5V PWM signal or an analog signal of 0-5V with the dimming region between 0 and 2.5V.

To get off the ground, I'm going to ebay some arduino stuff. It appears the tft screen can fit into a breadboard for testing, some kits have the screen piggy backed on the due, I suspect this is not what I want? It seems to cover up all the input and out ports doesn't it? I eventually want to remote mount the screen. Are these shields setup to also go remote?

I guess to get the basics to test and run a program and have the access to the inputs and outputs. Can you tell me the main items I should purchase? One kit had something called a due programmer downloader, not sure why I thought the due was self sufficient to download anyway...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> The statement below makes me think the "L" version won't work, i'll switch:
> The LDD-L drivers can be dimmed using both a 5V PWM signal or an analog signal of 0-5V with the dimming region between 0 and 2.5V.


close but not quite.. but I did find the answer:


> The voltage itself can be any, the LDD-H accept a PWM voltage range of 2.5v up to 6v, and LDD-L accept 3.5v to 8v.





> The Mini will be limited to drivers that can accept a 3.3v PWM signal, which would include the LDDs, Luxdrive Buckpucks (unconfirmed), Recom RCD drivers (unconfirmed), and home built drivers that meet the requirements


http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/356575-new-miniature-wifi-led-controller-100/page-2



> Honestly this is rock-bottom pricing. I definitely appreciate your support of the Bluefish line though!





> Just want to make sure this is clear before I get into trouble.  The $100 retail price doesn't include a power supply, or any cable attachments. The header is standard 0.1" x 0.1" pin spacing, so current Nano Box or Storm users don't need anything extra for the connection to lights. The board can be powered through the header, or through the mini USB port. If you've ever bought a digital camera, you probably have at least one of these cables already, and it can be plugged into a cell phone charger (the types with the USB port).
> 
> 
> 
> If you need a power supply, we will offer one for less than $10, and a ribbon "breakout" cable for about $5.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I assume the "breakout cable" comment is directed at me concerning the remote mounted screen? I have limited electronic wiring experience and just don't want to buy items I can't use due to some mechanical issue. I'm getting the feeling these pin connections are readily available and for now I can just jumper the pins if necessary. I'm confident on the programming side, shaky on what is available to make connections in a "professional" manner...

I'm way excited to do this as a due method. I have always wanted to create an automated system for home use, just to do it. This definitely fits the bill and will blow away my earlier programmable relay concept. Glad to see some others are paving the way too!

I guess this completely made my mind up to create my own led light. Where else can such a custom item come to life than with lights


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> I assume the "breakout cable" comment is directed at me concerning the remote mounted screen?


That is just the PWM "out"s from the Bluefish to LDD's.....

W/ wireless and Android control a touchscreen is a bit redundant. A cheap tablet mounted in a wall is enough.. what another $50.. 
Those 7" touch screens are at least $25 I believe... 

As to any "remote" mounted screens.. The parallel cable from the controller to a screen has a "lot" of length limitations..

Hardware engineer
Programmer
Optical engineer
Designer
Carpenter
Electrician

Too many hats ..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

kind of reminiscent of my first scanner I got for $10 on a black friday. the thing just wouldn't connect and finally found that my parallel cable was to long. It does seem like a lot of hats, why do we do this again?

It's like managing a shop floor, only these participants know we hold the power of life and death in our hands. All these hats are ok when you don't get the talk-back.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

Thanks everyone for your input. I have a good direction to go now. I'm purchasing the due and 3.2 screen with the shield below at misc ebay posts. $60 investment (a few misc items as well). Looks great for testing and keeping ports available. Initially I'll learn the software control.

Oh, and I see why the one version needed the "programmer downloader", it was the R2 version of the DUE that as you can see has the 5 pins going out the left. The R3 version I bought already has this implemented into the board. So only the shield/screen is what I actually purchased, not this specific version of the DUE.

And back to the matter at hand, the led drivers. It appears the PWM varies 0 to 5 volts, so I think either of these drivers should function well. 
(confirmation desired, I think I'm understanding the spec sheet, little confused why the minus is present with -Vin)
*The LDDL driver has this spec:*
Power ON with dimming: DIM ~ -Vin >3.5 ~ 8VDC or open circuit
Power OFF : DIM ~ -Vin < 0.5VDC or short
*The LDDH driver has this spec:*
Power ON with dimming: DIM ~ -Vin >2.5 ~ 6VDC or open circuit
Power OFF : DIM ~ -Vin < 0.8VDC or short


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> Thanks everyone for your input. I have a good direction to go now. I'm purchasing the due and 3.2 screen with the shield below at misc ebay posts. $60 investment (a few misc items as well). Looks great for testing and keeping ports available. Initially I'll learn the software control.
> 
> Oh, and I see why the one version needed the "programmer downloader", it was the R2 version of the DUE that as you can see has the 5 pins going out the left. The R3 version I bought already has this implemented into the board. So only the shield/screen is what I actually purchased, not this specific version of the DUE.
> 
> ...


The Ldd-L series has 2 "types" High mA (1000,1200,1500) 
(2.6-5.5V) and low mA (3.5-8V won't work w/ a 3.3V signal)
http://www.meanwell-bg.com/files/Models/LDD/LDD-L.pdf
http://www.meanwell.com/search/LDD-L/LDD-L-spec.pdf


As long as the signal goes "high" at an acceptable voltage it should work..

You are confusing signal w/ strength.. W/ PWM strength is meaningless once you reach the correct signal voltage..

A 5.5V "pulse" at a 50% duty cycle is the same as as 3.5V pulse at 50% duty cycle..At either voltage it will be 50% dimmed

INPUT









OUTPUT:


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

humm, confused maybe. Perhaps the PWM page I found was not for the DUE.
I could not find a the PWM voltage on the DUE spec sheet but I found a PWM page on Arduino about PWM and it was stated to be 5V. So I understand the PWM voltage isn't critical, it just needs to meet the driver's minimum requirement.

So I was beginning to think that since the input voltage is 7-12v and the board has a pin for 3.3 and 5v that the 3.3v was just what the system ran, but that it was switching something higher...

I think we are saying the same concept, but where we might be differing, or I need some convincing is just what voltage is the PWM of the DUE.

From what was implied somewhere else I suspect you are correct. If so, I suppose even the analog out is only 0-3.3v ? Does the board ever switch anything higher than 3.3v? Maybe the 5v pin is for other purposes...

So to clarify, you are confirming that the LDDL will not work, but the LDDH does? Or the LDDL actually has different dimming voltages based on amperage? If so I didn't notice that...

OR I HAD A REVELATION!  are the two types you speak of what I'm refering to as the "L" and "H" versions!


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> humm, confused maybe. Perhaps the PWM page I found was not for the DUE.
> I could not find a the PWM voltage on the DUE spec sheet but I found a PWM page on Arduino about PWM and it was stated to be 5V. So I understand the PWM voltage isn't critical, it just needs to meet the driver's minimum requirement.
> 
> So I was beginning to think that since the input voltage is 7-12v and the board has a pin for 3.3 and 5v that the 3.3v was just what the system ran, but that it was switching something higher...
> ...


The DUE is a 3.3v system, the pwm is a 3.3v signal as well. The 5v pin is for powering other boards if/when required via a 5v regulator, but applying >3.3v to any analog or digital pin on the DUE is a quick way to fry it.

EDIT: That's not to say you couldn't supply a higher voltage pwm from the DUE, it can be done via a transistor circuit with other hardware. The alternative is to use another Arduino board with 5V PWM signal, such as a MEGA - but you tradeoff speed, resolution, and space.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> humm, confused maybe. Perhaps the PWM page I found was not for the DUE.
> I could not find a the PWM voltage on the DUE spec sheet but I found a





> *Warning: Unlike other Arduino boards, the Arduino Due board runs at 3.3V. The maximum voltage that the I/O pins can tolerate is 3.3V. Providing higher voltages, like 5V to an I/O pin could damage the board*.


http://arduino.cc/en/Main/arduinoBoardDue



> *Digital I/O: pins from 0 to 53*
> Each of the 54 digital pins on the Due can be used as an input or output, using pinMode(), digitalWrite(), and digitalRead() functions. They operate at 3.3 volts. Each pin can provide (source) a current of 3 mA or 15 mA, depending on the pin, or receive (sink) a current of 6 mA or 9 mA, depending on the pin....[/Q*PWM: Pins 2 to 13*
> Provide 8-bit PWM output with the analogWrite() function. the resolution of the PWM can be changed with the analogWriteResolution() function.


----------



## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> So to clarify, you are confirming that the LDDL will not work, but the LDDH does? Or the LDDL actually has different dimming voltages based on amperage? If so I didn't notice that...


Yes, the LDD-H will work on the DUE without any additional circuitry.

EDIT - As Jeff mentioned, the LDD-L high ma units will work as well.


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

ok, so It's the LDDL that won't work in one of their two amperage's, and I think I understand why. I was thinking there wasn't a 500ma LDDH, but there is, so I will go all with LDDH series drivers.

Sorry for the confusion, but until I completely understand the reasons and limitations it will appear I know nothing. lol
Thanks.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

renesis said:


> Yes, the LDD-H will work on the DUE without any additional circuitry.
> 
> EDIT - As Jeff mentioned, the LDD-L high ma units will work as well.


IS it really stuck w/ 8bit PWM out??

kind of a deal breaker.. or is that software derived? 
My own answer..


> The Due has the following hardware capabilities:
> 
> 
> 12 pins which default to 8-bit PWM, like the AVR-based boards. These can be changed to 12-bit resolution.
> ...





> Syntax
> 
> analogWriteResolution(bits)


http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/AnalogWriteResolution


----------



## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> IS it really stuck w/ 8bit PWM out??
> 
> kind of a deal breaker.. or is that software derived?
> My own answer..
> ...


Default is 8 only to make it compatible with other shields.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> The Ldd-L series has 2 "types" High mA (1000,1200,1500)
> (2.6-5.5V) and low mA (3.5-8V won't work w/ a 3.3V signal)
> http://www.meanwell-bg.com/files/Models/LDD/LDD-L.pdf
> http://www.meanwell.com/search/LDD-L/LDD-L-spec.pdf


Jeff, I'm sorry but for the life of me I can't find a 1500LDD-L that appears to work with a PWM voltage under 3.3v. The two links above seem to point at the same doc, and do not work the way I see it.

It appears to me that I don't have a 1500ma option that works with the DUE without the extra circuitry as noted earlier.
I'll keep looking...maybe it doesn't matter and 1000ma is ok.


----------



## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

Its on page 2, under PWM DIMMING.



> Power ON with dimming: DIM ~ -Vin >2.6 ~ 5.5VDC or open circuit


Keep in mind the LDD-L has a lower voltage range than the LDD-H.


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

finally! I see the dimming for the LDD1000-1500L. And yes I see the the lower operating voltage as well that limits the quantity of leds.

I was thinking about the lightning features, kind of goofy and yet sort of fun to code. Given that I would probably divide the white lights into 8 groups, two rows, 4 columns. Just to give an appearance of light traveling and not just flashing. That would drop the led per driver count down, and my wallet will be lighter by $45 as well.

Thanks.
Kurt


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

So for a power supply here are some item requirements:
several strings of 6 leds around 3v each so 18v total.

Do I buy a 24vdc power supply and put a resistor in series to bring it down to 18v, or what happens when there is a higher voltage than required across each led? Or maybe make the strings 7 leds and leave out the resistor?

Kurt


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> So for a power supply here are some item requirements:
> several strings of 6 leds around 3v each so 18v total.
> 
> Do I buy a 24vdc power supply and put a resistor in series to bring it down to 18v, or what happens when there is a higher voltage than required across each led? Or maybe make the strings 7 leds and leave out the resistor?
> ...


no you let the LDD's regulate the voltage ... 

you do have to assume a 3v loss between the ps and the LDD.. 24V in to LDD leaves you 21V for the LED's..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

ok, here is my initial concept, any glaring errors in the components?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> ok, here is my initial concept, any glaring errors in the components?


Just be sure th LDD's fit the board.. some Ldd-L's have a different pin config and or foot print.

Next skip green and get some cyan (blue green) There is plenty of green in the whites..Unfortunately CREE does not make cyan AFAICT..Not crucial, more of a "why" thing w/ green..
not seeing any deep red either..

Personally you are limiting your "palette"..
JUST an opinion...


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Just be sure th LDD's fit the board.. some Ldd-L's have a different pin config and or foot print.
> 
> Next skip green and get some cyan (blue green) There is plenty of green in the whites..Unfortunately CREE does not make cyan AFAICT..Not crucial, more of a "why" thing w/ green..
> not seeing any deep red either..
> ...


what is AFAICT?
the limiting my palette, you mean this as far a color, or types of products?
The red led is as close the 660nm as I could get from CREE, 630ish
I favored CREE because they appear more efficient. I didn't find a philips warm-white. I'm a bit anal about things looking similar so I didn't like mixing brands...but function trumps.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> what is AFAICT?
> the limiting my palette, you mean this as far a color, or types of products?
> The red led is as close the 660nm as I could get from CREE, 630ish
> I favored CREE because they appear more efficient. I didn't find a philips warm-white. I'm a bit anal about things looking similar so I didn't like mixing brands...but function trumps.


"as far as I can tell"..........

mixing brands is part of the strength of DIY.... 
For fun








Steves LED
whites alone (6300+4000)/2 = 5150K
(6300+2700)/2 = 4500K

Lenses are only .45 each as well... 18.90


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

ok, you have my anal side with price, single brand, I just have to get over not having the most efficient and highest output potential CREE whites. 

I don't know color mixing, so in your opinion what about doing the CREE whites and all the colors as Philips?

I can handle incremental brand mixing LOL

However, the differing lens between the brands would annoy me the most, the leds themselves are really insignificantly different....


----------



## flyfshrmn98 (Oct 20, 2011)

kabendixen said:


> ok, you have my anal side with price, single brand, I just have to get over not having the most efficient and highest output potential CREE whites.
> 
> I don't know color mixing, so in your opinion what about doing the CREE whites and all the colors as Philips?
> 
> ...


There are other higher output more efficient white LEDs than Cree. You should look into the bridgelux veto or bxra series


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

will do, "best" is always compromised with cost.

One question, I was thinking of the lightning setups. with two rows spaced 5" apart would you even be able to notice the led's transition from front to back. Or do the guys that are doing this provide completely cosmetic leds at a much wider pattern?

Starting to think this is going to blow to much money for totally goofiness. Going just left and right might be as crazy as I get.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> will do, "best" is always compromised with cost.
> 
> One question, I was thinking of the lightning setups. with two rows spaced 5" apart would you even be able to notice the led's transition from front to back. Or do the guys that are doing this provide completely cosmetic leds at a much wider pattern?
> 
> Starting to think this is going to blow to much money for totally goofiness. Going just left and right might be as crazy as I get.


get even goofier
put 6 of these in
http://shop.stevesleds.com/3-up-Tristar-Separate-wiring-8794102447.htm
(RB/Cyan/660nm)
sustitute 3ups for RB.. .. intersperse a few 6300k whites in between..eliminate the 2 side strips (b and Red)... Count (6,5,4) is really tank dependent.










"cosmetic" fixes are really more for fixing a design flaw.. 

Your lensing depends on tank width and height you want the light at ..
Your strip seperation depends on the cone overlap of the lenses

JUST noticed the above is mus-labelled.. The cyan (cy) are really RB.... My bad..
it is not a good day unless I confuse someone..


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> get even goofier
> put 6 of these in
> http://shop.stevesleds.com/3-up-Tristar-Separate-wiring-8794102447.htm
> (RB/Cyan/660nm)
> ...


to be honest I don't know if the tri-star is that crazy, cost isn't a factor. My question would be if you think putting rgb in a single area is an advantage or a handicap...either for replacement or more importantly total appearance in use.

I was thinking the typical spacing of colors keeps the "bright" spots from appearing.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> to be honest I don't know if the tri-star is that crazy, cost isn't a factor. My question would be if you think putting rgb in a single area is an advantage or a handicap...either for replacement or more importantly total appearance in use.
> 
> I was thinking the typical spacing of colors keeps the "bright" spots from appearing.


I get more bright spots from condensation droplets on the glass cover.. (mini-lenses)...

Technically the closer the colors the less possibility of disco..
The tighter you lenses on singles the more likely you have color separation (at least in the closest to the emitter area)

I did separate colors for 2 reasons 1) cost and 2)120 degree beam spread.

W/ the 3 ups I'd even contemplate skip lensing... 
At 4" w/ 120 optics you get a 14" beam spread on the center colors..
You just want the colors to reach close to the width.. using natural falloff to drown out any color banding

BEST heat sinking on a tri-star..
http://www.luxeonstar.com/any-3-rebel-leds-mounted-on-a-20mm-tri-star-sinkpad

RB/cyan/deep red $18.35


> Before you order cyan LEDs, please be sure to read this important information about color variations.
> Bases are configured to power each LED separately for RGB operation, however you can easily convert the assembly to power all three LEDs in series (Triple operation) with two solder dots.
> Your making me want to get my soldering iron out..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Technically the closer the colors the less possibility of disco..
> The tighter you lenses on singles the more likely you have color separation (at least in the closest to the emitter area)
> 
> I did separate colors for 2 reasons 1) cost and 2)120 degree beam spread.
> ...


My setup will be nearly 8 inches off the water in a canopy, hence the 60 or 80 degree lenses. Do they have lenses for the tri-star?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> My setup will be nearly 8 inches off the water in a canopy, hence the 60 or 80 degree lenses. Do they have lenses for the tri-star?


44 degrees seems the "widest" Might want to check though


http://www.luxeonstar.com/carclo-44-degree-frosted-tri-led-optic

roughly a 6" spread at the surface..
same lens:
http://www.ledsupply.com/led-optics/10509-carclo-lens-3-up-frosted-wide-spot-led-optic


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

not much time over lunch, but I didn't see much more than the 44deg lens for the tri-star. Back to the basic whites and lens angle I have this sketch. Would you do the 60 or 90 degrees for the whites. And if the tristar was used would you use a lens at all?

The focal point is 2.5" off center, but the 44deg tristar would be more centrally located...

I still have about 1" I could move the light up, leaving only 3/4" for aluminum. But leaving room for possible fins or air movement seems wise.

You say the whites already have green in them so bias to cyan. What seems strange to me is cyan is "baby blue" How can the greens be increased if desired unless the whites are on as well. I really don't yet get what I'm shooting for about colors and I'm no artist, just that I know I might regret not keeping color spectrum options open... Is there no time when you want more green to make the green plants more visually vibrant?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

First things first:


















see the problem?


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> see the problem?


ahh, the whites are lacking deep red, and that cyan in the middle?
from this it appears we should have plenty of royal blue however, looking at it this way, would this mean a violet color would be better than royal blue?

I like where you are going, earlier interaction I had people concentrated on blue and red for plant growth. So it appears your goal is to bring the entire color spectrum up to the same intensity? This I presume is for our visual taste and not the plant's growth?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> ? This I presume is for our visual taste and not the plant's growth?


Actually it is for both..








http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/lightrxn.shtml
As to violet.. probably..You got in one of the few purely emotional points..
violets are eye dull and are hard to manuf. stably.
I can't give a "good reason" to not include them.. I just don't.. 

As to your geometry problem..
I'd still recommend 3 rows.. 90 front, 60 back. 44 degrees colored middle.. 
IF you add some white to the center colored channel, 90 degrees..

Whats the fun of DIY w/ out some trial and error.. or tailoring to a specific layout.. like off center lighting..


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

Yes, the off center lighting has great visual appeal depending on the layout. I just don't want to change physical items to get there. That might give some weight to the earlier thought of breaking the whites into groups so I can manipulate them independently.

So a layout with three rows, say 2.5" apart, with (12) evenly spaced whites in front and (12) in back would space them about 3-3.5". I suppose I would alternate the CW and WW but they would be on different drivers. This would effectively remove any front to back lighting control however, just keeping the ability to change light intensity in 4 left-right groups.

Colors would be in the middle with a 6" spacing, each color on their own driver.

Lenses as you recommended.
You might have me convinced to go Philips. I'll dig deeper that direction...
Trial and error, that sounds like a planted tank!


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

one thing about the lens selection, I was earlier thinking I would want more pointed light in the front, where low plants are, and the wider in the back. You have this exactly opposite. What are your reasons?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> but they would be on different drivers. This would effectively remove any front to back lighting control however, just keeping the ability to change light intensity in 4 left-right groups.


2 more drivers.. 2 more channel.. front back separation..
7 channels total.. No problem, it is just money... 

DIY, 2 Typhons or StormX or Bluefin full model
? $100 (plus case) $95 $200 (app enabled wireless)


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> one thing about the lens selection, I was earlier thinking I would want more pointed light in the front, where low plants are, and the wider in the back. You have this exactly opposite. What are your reasons?


some of it wasn't knowing exactly hat you had in mind..and your starting w/ a slight handicap by having the light back when you want most light on the front.
Secondly w/ enough diodes all areas have "high enough" intensity.. so weighting one or the other, w/ dimming is easily doable..
Third you will have some bounce back off the glass at this angle..


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> 2 more drivers.. 2 more channel.. front back separation..
> 7 channels total.. No problem, it is just money...


I guess I'm already at the 7, but if I alternate the CW and WW they are mixed front to back. Maybe if I stagger the groups in three's I can keep the front to back ability. So three CW front, three WW back, the next group is three WW front and 3 CW back. This sounds good to me if there isn't a compelling reason not to. But this sort of stuff is really minor, functionality is more important than goofy light shows.

To be honest, I think groups of three would be noticeable, I don't think I would want to do that...probably appear "banded" near the top of the water with all intensities equal.

As far as controllers I'm set on the arduino due. My strong suit is programming in this venture...

Not sure what you mean by me "having my light more back". It will be centered over the tank. I didn't mirror the angles on my earlier drawing so it wouldn't clutter the pic. With this info, would you get the same 90 deg lens for all white lights?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> Not sure what you mean by me "having my light more back". It will be centered over the tank. I didn't mirror the angles on my earlier drawing so it wouldn't clutter the pic. With this info, would you get the same 90 deg lens for all white lights?


I misunderstood you.. I thought the 21/2 back was the center row...
So the whole array would be set back


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

yes so the 44deg would be centered and the other angles options to the left and right of it by 2.5". It was a more quick toss to show you something. probably more confusing that it was worth. So would you go all 90 deg? The 60 deg guarantees it all get into the tank however.

Those sinkpad-II's are probably to pricy for me. I'd rather group them myself than pay that. Steve's tristars are priced ok. Dissipating heat might be my only concern grouping them this tight. If it doesn't matter that much I'd rather have individual leds but in a tight pattern.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> yes so the 44deg would be centered and the other angles options to the left and right of it by 2.5". It was a more quick toss to show you something. probably more confusing that it was worth. So would you go all 90 deg? The 60 deg guarantees it all get into the tank however.
> 
> Those sinkpad-II's are probably to pricy for me. I'd rather group them myself than pay that. Steve's tristars are priced ok. Dissipating heat might be my only concern grouping them this tight. If it doesn't matter that much I'd rather have individual leds but in a tight pattern.


Lets walk this backwards a bit..
18" wide tank an 8" off the water..

for now assume one row of LED's centered..
AT 90 degrees your circle is 16 inches.. Out of that 16 inches most of your light is in a circle of a guesstimate of 12-14 inches..


Really 90 degrees seems just fine w/ 2-3 rows w/ an inch or 2 of separation..

60 degrees looks too restrictive at that low of height..(9.23 but w/ the majority in a circle of 7-8 inches..


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I'm ok with the 90 degree, I was biased to the 60 before you said that. So I'm thinking of doing all the same. As far as the driver amperage what do you shoot for? I want good life out of these... I was thinking 200-300ma less than the max. The red seems like the only standout here. Do I bring the other colors down to match or just treat it differently. The summary of the specs are below:

so I was thinking 700 ma for all but red, and 500 for red?

I also added a led layout.


----------



## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

do you feel you really ever want to independently blend the CW and WW? I'ts probably a bad idea to mix them all up isn't it?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> I'm ok with the 90 degree, I was biased to the 60 before you said that. So I'm thinking of doing all the same. As far as the driver amperage what do you shoot for? I want good life out of these... I was thinking 200-300ma less than the max. The red seems like the only standout here. Do I bring the other colors down to match or just treat it differently. The summary of the specs are below:
> 
> so I was thinking 700 ma for all but red, and 500 for red?
> 
> I also added a led layout.


first a few things to consider.

Are you going to use passive cooling?
Are you going to design the controller w/ a global set point on each channel (say restrict output to say 80% or any duty cycle of choice
Are you going to use a pull down resistor so that, in the event of controller failure the lights go off..not go to 100%

Ldd-H's are 500,600,700,1000 mA so you do have that restriction.

Drivers are about 5% of your budget.. so a mistake here is pretty harmless.

That said I'd probably go that one step under max as you have listed mostly because it will extend it's life and as a hedge to any possible errors or weak points.
Also since I don't like fans, going max current will def. require fans

just a reminder that 80% dimming is not less mA , just the same amount but at less time..
Big old white paper on this :
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...=n6VloZzh5mP87FiO1cZ49w&bvm=bv.87519884,d.cWc



> In fact, reducing the junction temperature by 10°C extends the estimated time to failure by a factor of >1.2. Thus, good thermal management reduces catastrophic failure rates. Lowering the drive current also helps to reduce catastrophic failure rates.


some people like to live on the edge though..

As to the reds.. just treat them "normally"..Doing some analysis on those 5050smd' strings and the "normal" reds are under driven as well.. Fairly standard..but does make the strings look a little blue at RGB=100


Just for fun.. see the first picture..
http://www.dhgate.com/product/dimmable-led-aquarium-light-with-lenses-120w/156536925.html


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

If I wanted to say add more red leds to compensate for their lower intensity, can you equate mW and lumens?

Thanks for the white paper, and all your help by the way.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> If I wanted to say add more red leds to compensate for their lower intensity, can you equate mW and lumens?
> 
> Thanks for the white paper, and all your help by the way.


no, lumens are based on human visual response.. Means little to plants..

By the time you matched measured lumens, your reds would be in the 100's of Watts..(or there abouts)










One of the reasons "cyan" has such a high lumen output..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> do you feel you really ever want to independently blend the CW and WW? I'ts probably a bad idea to mix them all up isn't it?


No it is not a bad idea.. but then you should determine a base color temp.
Personally, ww are "overpowering in yellow) See lumen chart.. 
So if I do a combined channel (a new one) I'd do at least a 2:1 ratio of cw to ww. Then using blue or red channel to adjust to taste..

[email protected] and [email protected] = 5500k effective..
[email protected] and [email protected] =5750 effective
1:1 =5000K

W/ the 40b build I've gone from all 3500k to all 6500k to 50/50 3500k/6500k..

I consider the best compromise is the 50/50 but boost the color temp quite a bit w/ a rb/6500k ancillary channel..
I'd never just use the 50/50 alone. It is a good color for fw. I just get picky.

Being locked to 4 channels will do that..
this transitions from red (really is much deeper red than the video shows.) to red/50/50white to red/50/50whites/bluewhite/ to red/50/50whites/bluewhites/cyan

http://youtu.be/VruO2w1d3Ls


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> No it is not a bad idea.. but then you should determine a base color temp.
> Personally, ww are "overpowering in yellow) See lumen chart..
> So if I do a combined channel (a new one) I'd do at least a 2:1 ratio of cw to ww. Then using blue or red channel to adjust to taste..
> 
> ...


You have me a bit confused, it appears you say 2:1 is good, but in the end your own tank you have stabilized 1:1. In either case I will always have the red/blues to mix as well. I wasn't thinking of running just whites only, just mixing them on a string would allow for automated lighting to work with less drivers. (automated in terms of light shows, not just dimming etc. lol)

If it was just up to visual appeal, I don't like light that looks very yellow...tends to look murky to me.

With all the moving of leds around do you solder yours on or do you use the solderless versions?


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> Are you going to use passive cooling?
> Are you going to design the controller w/ a global set point on each channel (say restrict output to say 80% or any duty cycle of choice
> Are you going to use a pull down resistor so that, in the event of controller failure the lights go off..not go to 100%
> just a reminder that 80% dimming is not less mA , just the same amount but at less time..


As to these questions:
I will have a couple fans in the canopy, more for ventilation.
I will see what temps I get with the system and determine my fan needs at that time.
I'm hoping as you are getting away with no fan, if I put them on a finned plate I will hedge that no direct fan is required.
I'm planning on an assortment of backup switches in the case of a controller failure for all the system's needs, I know diodes will be necessary to accomplish this...
As far as the lights failing at 100%, I assume you speak more of a logic failure, or hardware fault? 
Is a pulldown resistor a large resistor to ground to drain the voltage away from the driver's dimming control, In the case of them going to 100% what is your though the cause? I would figure the voltage would drop to zero with a controller failure (except for logic issues and hardware failures, in which case I'm wondering how a resistor can prevent it from going to 100%)
Or is this a resistor in series with the string of leds? to drop the power in the loop? I don't like this idea as it sounds like more heat and less efficient...
..The fear of it going to 100% is more to protect the plants right? I figure I would find the error quickly and resolve.
And about duty cycle, yes I do hope this setup has more light than I could ever want for freshwater...so eventually my 100% could be coded in, but not be the real 100% the lights can handle.


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## renesis (Dec 4, 2014)

kabendixen said:


> As to these questions:
> 
> As far as the lights failing at 100%, I assume you speak more of a logic failure, or hardware fault?
> Is a pulldown resistor a large resistor to ground to drain the voltage away from the driver's dimming control, In the case of them going to 100% what is your though the cause? I would figure the voltage would drop to zero with a controller failure (except for logic issues and hardware failures, in which case I'm wondering how a resistor can prevent it from going to 100%)
> Or is this a resistor in series with the string of leds? to drop the power in the loop? I don't like this idea as it sounds like more heat and less efficient...


The pulldown resistor goes from ground to your PWM pin for each driver. If the controller was ever disconnected (either physically, or during bootup, etc), the lights would go to full ON without the pull-down in place. The pull-down effectively sets the lights to OFF, until the controller takes over. Doesn't have to be high wattage, a 10k 1/4watt would do fine on each driver.


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

renesis said:


> The pulldown resistor goes from ground to your PWM pin for each driver. If the controller was ever disconnected (either physically, or during bootup, etc), the lights would go to full ON without the pull-down in place. The pull-down effectively sets the lights to OFF, until the controller takes over. Doesn't have to be high wattage, a 10k 1/4watt would do fine on each driver.


so the drivers actually default to 100% with nothing connected to the dimming pin? I was thinking 0v would be "off". But is it really 3.3v from the pwm is when the driver shuts off? So a constant 3.3v from the pwm will be "lights off"?

Thanks for the heads up! I'm sure I would have found this out eventually, but nice to know now


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> so the drivers actually default to 100% with nothing connected to the dimming pin? I was thinking 0v would be "off". But is it really 3.3v from the pwm is when the driver shuts off? So a constant 3.3v from the pwm will be "lights off"?
> 
> Thanks for the heads up! I'm sure I would have found this out eventually, but nice to know now


confusing isn't it?? apparently a little bleed signal is needed to drive the driver to zero ..To be honest I'm not sure exactly how that works but it does..
Other types of drivers work different. Buckpucks have a reverse PWM. Some meanwells need a signal to light (dim circuit open.. no light) 

I suspect part of the answer is in this trace:








A guess. you have to pull the signal past "ground" or zero...


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

i guess that's why its a "dimming" port and not a "brightening" port :icon_idea


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> i guess that's why its a "dimming" port and not a "brightening" port :icon_idea


i got my feelers out for an answer.. but it seems the logical thing to assume is ,when connected, there is a slight reverse bias on the LDD PWM circuit.. Shutting it off completely.
Breaking this link removes this bias, allowing the LDD to go full on.. 

You know I speak these words but sometimes wonder if I understand it..


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## O2surplus (Jan 31, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> i got my feelers out for an answer.. but it seems the logical thing to assume is ,when connected, there is a slight reverse bias on the LDD PWM circuit.. Shutting it off completely.
> Breaking this link removes this bias, allowing the LDD to go full on..
> 
> You know I speak these words but sometimes wonder if I understand it..



:hihi: Did your feelers feel anything- LOL


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jeffkrol said:


> i got my feelers out for an answer.. but it seems the logical thing to assume is ,when connected, there is a slight reverse bias on the LDD PWM circuit.. Shutting it off completely.
> Breaking this link removes this bias, allowing the LDD to go full on..
> 
> You know I speak these words but sometimes wonder if I understand it..


ON second thought, it is just a matter of shunting the circuit to zero (or less).
The size of the resistor is to limit the current.
I'll just call it magic..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

ok, now for a bit of a summary. The pre-fab one you showed me had more cyan than the other colors. I've discarded any formal "light shows" going with just a formal 5 driver setup. With 48v I can put all similar lights on the same string. I can get a 6x44 finned aluminum heat sink reasonably priced from heatsinks.com. I felt biased to the 60 deg optics, they are cheap and easily changed if I'm wrong. My canopy, yet to be built, is to have a double hinged top, the light is attached to the middle portion that can rotate up as well for extreme cleaning...

The price has dropped, but I have more lights.

Still on the fence about the 60 degrees. with lines in a cad program it looks like the right choice, but I could see the 90deg being more uniform. And I'm quite certain I will be dimmed down a fair percentage at this point. Would you stick with the 90deg seeing what you see now?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> ok, now for a bit of a summary. The pre-fab one you showed me had more cyan than the other colors. I've discarded any formal "light shows" going with just a formal 5 driver setup. With 48v I can put all similar lights on the same string. I can get a 6x44 finned aluminum heat sink reasonably priced from heatsinks.com. I felt biased to the 60 deg optics, they are cheap and easily changed if I'm wrong. My canopy, yet to be built, is to have a double hinged top, the light is attached to the middle portion that can rotate up as well for extreme cleaning...
> 
> The price has dropped, but I have more lights.
> 
> Still on the fence about the 60 degrees. with lines in a cad program it looks like the right choice, but I could see the 90deg being more uniform. And I'm quite certain I will be dimmed down a fair percentage at this point. Would you stick with the 90deg seeing what you see now?


you certainly do a lot more "cyphering" than I do..












> Beam Angle / Field Angle The angular dimension of the cone of light encompassing the central part of the beam arc to the angle where the intensity is 50% of the maximum illuminance which field angle requiring 10%.




much will depend on the lens quality... Just remember at the edges of the cone you have a lot of light falloff..
that is a lot of cyan...At first I went  but my own crude cyphering shows it is not too bad.. Overall cct should be around 11000 83CRI and oddly close to the black body curve..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

jeffkrol said:


> you certainly do a lot more "cyphering" than I do..


I have one tank going to keep my interest up in that area, and not having the money all at once keeps me designing rather than regretting what I bought.

I have been very happy with this wait period. I believe the final product will be several steps beyond my initial concept. My gut tells me things might come together in 6-12 more months. I can't tell you how many "good" designs have passed and gone... The light is near the end. I guess I have not looked at all the electrical wiring yet.

looks like you are hinting back to the 90 degree optics...
The light colors are the same percentages as that prefab one you showed. At this point I'm not to concerned that I can't get enough of any one color, except maybe red?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> looks like you are hinting back to the 90 degree optics...
> The light colors are the same percentages as that prefab one you showed. At this point I'm not to concerned that I can't get enough of any one color, except maybe red?


i have my own bias for the 90's, not liking any area of water too shaded..
Anotehr example for you. DSunY w/ a custom spectrum we designed. First is the tank:
http://youtu.be/lkq9rr8NQtc
second is the layout..
http://youtu.be/kHX1hosIgzE

I do have an issue w/ too many colors on the outside channels..










I'm not saying it can't work:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...ater-Aquarium-Lighting/612700_1443706223.html

But I will say it will get tougher w 60 degree optics to not get color bands..


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I'll buy that, convinced on the 90's.

I'll relook at the colors. Can you tell on a light shown above, are those a combination of CW & WW, or all CW?
I don't even see cyan on that one, well maybe some of those are lighter blue...


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kabendixen said:


> I'll buy that, convinced on the 90's.
> 
> I'll relook at the colors. Can you tell on a light shown above, are those a combination of CW & WW, or all CW?
> I don't even see cyan on that one, well maybe some of those are lighter blue...


Those look pretty cool white. Point is examples of clustering, not set patterns.

I really think ou will be happier w/ all the colors in the middle ..
Or striped g/r/b (row1,2,3)
(cyan=g)


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## kabendixen (Jan 27, 2015)

I've been looking around, even the planted dSunY stuff has a variety of color differences, one had a ton of royal blue, but I like yours and two of those sections looked like 36w, 6rgb. Sort of what I have mached up now: 24cw, 12ww, 6rgb.

I moved back up to 6 drivers, but noticed the board already has pull-down resistors, so that's one less thing to handle.


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