# Needle valve is a total POS!!



## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

I have one of these all in one milw. regulators. It has a needle valve on it that is about the biggest piece of crap there ever was. I have been fighting with this thing for 2 month. It will not hold a bubble count over 2 a sec. I set it at 5 bubbles a sec......solenoid goes off and comes back on the next day at 2 bubbles ever 5 seconds. I have had it with this crap. 

Any one have experience with a good needle valve. I desperately need something here.

Thanks

jB


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

First off, what is the working pressure set at? There've been a number of folks who reported that their needle valve won't hold a steady bubble rate unless they up the working presure to 20+ psi. I have mine set at ~40psi if for no other reason than that's what the JBJ regulator on my other tank is fixed at.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

bharada said:


> First off, what is the working pressure set at? There've been a number of folks who reported that their needle valve won't hold a steady bubble rate unless they up the working presure to 20+ psi. I have mine set at ~40psi if for no other reason than that's what the JBJ regulator on my other tank is fixed at.


It at about 25-30psi.....

jB


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Sometimes it is also that you have not opened the CO2 cylinder itself enough.

Here's my tried and true method for adjusting and setting up the bubble rate on the Milwaukee regulator.

1. Close all the pressure to the CO2 line from the cylinder itself (the big black knob).
2. Open the needle valve all the way and dump the little bit of CO2 still left in the bubble counter and then close it all the way again.
3. Make sure the valve on the actual CO2 cylinder is open a good amount. If you just turn it a bit it will slowly fade.
4. Slowly adjust the regulator to about 20 psi using the black knob.
5. Open the needle valve full blast for a few seconds and close it again and check to see that the pressure remained at 20 psi. If not, then readjust it and repeat this step until it does.
6. Now set the desired bubble rate and you should be golden.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Yup.....done all these things.....multiple times. I have been struggling with this for 2 months. So no i am done......

HAHA

jB


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Did you try them all in that order or just separately? I listed them in the order they should be done to achieve a reliable bubble rate.

There is one other thing that could be causing the issues. Do you have a needle valve setup on the CO2 line? How are you injecting the CO2? You may be having backpressure issues.


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> Yup.....done all these things.....multiple times. I have been struggling with this for 2 months.


I hear ya', jB! That's why I finally broke down and got a controller. However, now that I'm investigating the new Tom Barr ceramic disc approach, I might have to do something. Personally, I just started adjusting the bubble rate by adjusting the black knob (moving the psi between 20-40). I tried several of the tricks also and never got the needle valve adjustment to stay steady.

I know Rex has long recommended the Clippard needle valve. But, I too am listening!


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Sell the POS. 

Build your own.

Problem solved.


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

I have the milwaukee too. The bubble rate is all over the place. I have to set it every day. It does work better if you leave it run 24/7. It holds fairly steady then and will drift if there was a big temp change in the house. 

Closing and opening the solinoid can mess up the setting big time. I have to reset mine almost every day after the solinoid turns on. I turn the CO2 off at night, because I inject alot during the day. I use a plastic check valve. Del somthing or other. 

I have been thinking about a new regulater and valve or going to co2 24/7. 

Rick.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

yeah i have the same prob.

Rex.....I have no problem building one.....thus the point of this thread. Where are you buying a good needle valve these days?

jB


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Jason I am not sure if it is the regulator or the needle valve. It could be either.
I have read that Rex runs his CO2 24/7? What he is using may not fix your or my issue since we are using the equipment differently.

Rex have you ever cycled yours off at night? If so did it hold a steady bubble rate for a week or longer? I have mine hold steady for a few days then drift off.

I have been hesitant to get anything new. I actually think the problem is with the regulator and not the valve. I can't prove it though unless i start throwing parts at it.

At the end of my list of things to do is a visit to the local home brew store. When I have some spare time and some spare cash I will check out the regulators they have.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

> Rex have you ever cycled yours off at night? If so did it hold a steady bubble rate for a week or longer? I have mine hold steady for a few days then drift off.


In the past I had a solenoid on a timer. Bubble count was rock solid.

I use the Clippard needle valves. The MNK-4V as I recall.

Fabco makes a good one that is a bit more expensive but I have never used it.

Also Swagelok makes some awesome metering valves if you want to go top shelf and spend ~$70 or so each.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Thanks for the tips Rex!!

I will look for those needle valves.

jB


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## bobalston (Nov 8, 2003)

Here is the ultimate guide to needle & metering valves for aquatic plant co2 use:

http://members.cox.net/tulsaalstons/Documents/Aquarium Needle-Metering Valve Recommendations.htm

I personally use the clippard valve. It works for me. As a 2nd choice consider the Dave Gomberg Fabco valve. But the good stuff is Swagelok or better.

Bob

Bob


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I've been having the same problem, JB. When the controller kicked back on, the bubble count was almost non-existent. In fact, I have had a BBA outbreak because of the faulty needle valve. As soon as I saw what was happening, I called Milwaukee and pretty much insisted they send me a new regulator ASAP. 

This is it for me and the Milwaukee regulators. I don't mind fiddling around, but I can't start having problems because of equipment failure. This unit conks out and I an off Milwaukee!

Mike


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Yeah I hear that Mike.....

At the same time though.....is it really Milwaukee? Or is is just the stupid needle valve. I just think this "all in one setup" is crap. 

Would would be your alternative? JBJ? Its the same crap I hear. I think the best way to go is to put it together piece by piece.

I think I am just going to pull the needle valve/ bubble counter off and by a more reliable one.

jB


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> At the same time though.....is it really Milwaukee? Or is is just the stupid needle valve. I just think this "all in one setup" is crap.


Well, it is the Milwaukee regulator. The next one goes bad, and that's it!



> Would would be your alternative?


AZOO. I have an AZOO on my tall 37G and it works with no trouble at all. When the original Milwaukee on my 75G took a dirt nap, I should have replaced it with the AZOO instead of another Milwaukee.

Believe me, I _will_ be using an AZOO regulator on the 37G Oceanic I'll be working on this winter!!

Mike


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Mike please delete this one some how I goofed up and double posted. 

Rick


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

JB please let me know if the needle valve fixes it. If it does I will buy a new one :icon_bigg . I still think it might be the regulator though. There have been some recommendations on needle valves. Does anyone know of any good quality regulators that one might buy to use with those needle vavles?

I am not really please with milwuakee equipement so far. I have both the all in one regulator and the controller. We have been discussing the drifting with the regulator. The controller I have is not much better. It drifts alot too. It is suppose to be plus or minues .2 but mine seems to be plus or minus .4 :icon_frow .

I calibrated it weekly and have found it .4 off a couple times. I don't use the controller function any more. I can't trust it. I use it as monitor and for fail safe protection. I have it set to turn off the CO2 if the PH gets down to 6 ( I run at 6.3) It might protect the fish from a end of tank dump or a complete regulator failure. 

Edit ok Mike you posted the AZOO as I was writing haha. 


Rick


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

rrguymon said:


> The controller I have is not much better. It drifts alot too. It is suppose to be plus or minues .2 but mine seems to be plus or minus .4 :icon_frow .
> 
> I calibrated it weekly and have found it .4 off a couple times.


Is anyone having this prob with the controller as well? Who is using this controller with luck?

Thanks

jB


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> Any one have experience with a good needle valve. I desperately need something here.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> jB


This is not a solution for most because it costs around $1000, but man I'll tell ya this is a SWEET piece of equipment. 










http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/p...ls=43456&par=&cat=1&sch=877&pfx=&lstBool=true

I have a 1-100 ml/m model. I like equipment, and I had the money to blow on it, but it is NICE.

1) Attach to your CO2 regulator using fittings
2) Attach CO2 line
3) Set the gas to CO2
4) Set your desired flow rate. I set mine to 50 ml/minute
5) Forget it.

The controller will constantly open and close its precision valve to keep the flow exactly where you set it. Even when the tank starts to empty and the working pressure increases. It calculates the flow based on mass, not volume, so it's SUPER accurate.

Overkill, yes. But you never have to readjust anything ever again. 

Very slight drawback, you don't want to ever operate it with _no_ gas flow/pressure. It will keep trying to open its valve all the way and overheat. So watch that tank pressure.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

rool:

In my dreams!


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## rpc212 (Sep 29, 2005)

OAAHHH!!! 

Now that is a controller! Wow! Your fish have a hardware life insurance against the dreaded "Tank dump"!

Maybe one day . . .

rpc212


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

I like the mass flow controller! Looks like it effectively replaces the needle valve in that the flow is constant all the time...

So how can we get this to play nice with a pH controller so that the ppm CO2 in the water column does not fluctuate during the photo period?


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

BlueRam said:


> I like the mass flow controller! Looks like it effectively replaces the needle valve in that the flow is constant all the time...
> 
> So how can we get this to play nice with a pH controller so that the ppm CO2 in the water column does not fluctuate during the photo period?


I have mine on a pH controller. Simply attach the solenoid plug and mass flow controller plug to an extension cord then plug that into the pH controller. It will turn both of them off at the exact same time. The mass flow controller remembers its settings when powered back on.

I use one of these as the extension cord to keep things simple.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I must be the weird exception... Only good things to say about the Milwaukee and it's needle valve. Whatever bubble count/flow I set it to, it holds steady (so far).

Now that I wrote this, it's going to explode I guess. :icon_bigg


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> I must be the weird exception... Only good things to say about the Milwaukee and it's needle valve. Whatever bubble count/flow I set it to, it holds steady (so far).
> 
> Now that I wrote this, it's going to explode I guess. :icon_bigg


Same here. I had troubles at first, but I blame that on poor directions. Using the steps I posted earlier in this thread I've had no problems keeping a steady bubble rate going on 1 1/2 years now. My CO2 is even only on when the lights are and it goes right back to where I set it.

I just got a used JBJ and I've had the same success.


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## kimbm04r (May 5, 2005)

I have the All-In-One Milwaukee regulator with a dual bubble counter. I have it hooked up to the Controller as well. I haven't used the second counter yet but intend to hook it up in the next few days.

When I first hooked up the regulator I had a problem with it holding the pressure I needed also. But I set it to 20 (maybe 25) and it holds steady. I did have to set it a few times for it to finally hold but once it got "worn in" it works fine. It seems to hold my bubble count where ever I set it.

I hooked up the controller a while after I got the regulator going. It seems to do a good job of maintaining my setting of 6.6 as well. It may flucuate .1 from time to time though but I think that is normal from what I hear.

The only real problem I had is that there was a leak that took me a while to find and once I did, I haven't had a problem. My leak was from the manifold to the solynoid connection and I just put in an "O" ring and it fixed the problem. I lost 2 tanks (5# each) in less than 3 months before I discovered the leak.

All in all I am pretty satisfied with the unit.


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## Jim (Apr 4, 2005)

Hi Jason,

I'm having the same problem with my Milwaukee regulator/needle valve holding its setting. I have followed the specific instructions above (much better than those that ship with the regulator) and am still having the same trouble. Not sure what I'm going to do about it, but wanted to let you know that you're not alone :icon_roll 

I have been pretty satisfied with SMS 122 controller. I calibrate it every few months and make minor adjustments .1-.2). 

Jim


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Well, it is the Milwaukee regulator. The next one goes bad, and that's it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


M,
Is this the AZOO regulator that you have? http://www.aquaticeco.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/product.detail/iid/11380/cid/2922

It's a small picture, but isn't this the same unit? http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_Display.cfm?siteid=6&pCatId=9895


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Both of those are AZOO regulators.

Hey! I know my way around a regulator. I have fiddled with this and that and just can't get the goofy thing to work properly. I have had low side pressure up to 40psi and was unable to hold a bubble stream capable of maintaining a CO2 level. The fact that the solenoid on the new unit is enough for me to have asked Milwaukee for a replacement (which they quickly obliged without question roud: ).

Mike


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Damn for what that runs you can get a really good beer regulator and solenoid and needle valve.

Regulator: $50 local home brew store.
Solenoid: $24
Needle Valve" $10.

I can shave $10 off the price if I mail order the regulator.


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

I hate my Milwuakee more every day. It just wont hold a constant bubble rate if you use the solinoide to turn it on and off at night. 

It is still under warrenty. If I call them will they send a new one out or do I have to send the old one in first? I would call them but our phone lines are all down big lightning storm wiped them out.


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## Kyle (Jul 19, 2005)

I have my Milwaukee on all of the time, and i have to check it every day or so to make sure the flow is consistant. Sometimes I'll check back in after a day and I'll have gone to ~2bps to like 1 bubble per 2.5-3 seconds! 

My tank pressure varies with temperature (of course), and my output is at like 8-8.5psi.. the instructions said go for 10psi, but if i turn it up that high the left side valve starts to whistle (??).

I'm not overly pleased with its performance so far, but i mean it is at least better than DIY.


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## Thinkfaster (Oct 8, 2005)

I bought the Milwaukee about 1.5-2 years ago and haven't had only problems apart from my own stupidity. I have noticed some fluctuation in my bubbles/sec, but when I use a stopwatch and count, it averages it out to what I want. I also found that I have a much steadier rate when my diffusor is clean compared to "chock full of nast". Just the other day, I noticed that my solenoid wasn't shutting off with the timer...so now I let the CO2 flow 24 hrs a day and so far no problems. (knock on wood).


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## Peter (Apr 21, 2005)

I bought a "Top Gun" -- a modified MA957 -- from Aquariumplants.com and set it up last Monday. I followed the directions but the number of bubbles kept fading and I couldn't get any pressure showing on the low pressure gauge. It seemed like all I've been doing is counting bubbles and adjusting. I called Aquariumplants.com who sent me to Milwaukee tech assistance who were nice but ultimately not successful in helping me. Their person said that the unit is just not made for a low bubble count. He suggested using a bigger airline tube and/or longer one to help relieve the pressure. He did send me a procedure for troubleshooting which was pretty much the same as posted on another thread. I finally got the unit to work properly yesterday morning and have had a steady 50 bubbles per minute since. Here was my procedure starting from scratch with the regulator off the cylinder:

If previously set-up: Empty bubble counter and blow it out to remove any water in the needle valve. Close (tighten) needle valve. Unplug solenoid.

1.	Attach the regulator to the cylinder valve placing the supplied plastic o-ring (not shown) between the regulator and the tank. Tighten with a wrench. Omission of this o-ring will cause loss of gas!

Apply Teflon tape regulator thread prior to screwing into tank. Make snug. 

2.	Unscrew the large brass ring (G) from the Bubble Counter (H) and fill the bubble counter 1/2 full of fresh water. Be sure the needle valve (B) is closed before filling with water. Once filled, replace the brass o-ring (G). 

3.	Before opening the cylinder valve turn the regulator adjustment knob (E) counter clockwise until tension is no longer felt on the knob. Do not fully remove the regulator flow adjustment knob. IF THE CYLINDER VALVE IS OPENED WITH THE REGULATOR KNOB CLOSED, DAMAGE TO THE REGULATOR CAN RESULT! 

4.	VERY SLOWLY and CAREFULLY open the cylinder valve COMPLETELY to seal the cylinder valve packing. The amount of gas in the cylinder can now be read on the High Pressure Gauge (D). 

5.	Plug the solenoid (C) into a suitable, grounded, AC Wall outlet, Hanna pH Mini Controller, or Milwaukee SMS122 pH Controller. The solenoid uses slightly more then 6 watts and it is normal for it to feel warm during operation. 

6.	This is where my procedure becomes different from the MA957 operating instructions: After plugging in the solenoid, I left the needle valve closed and then slowly opened (tightened) the regulator valve until I obtained a low pressure – 10 on the inner dial. I then used the needle valve to obtain the appropriate bubble count (50 p/m). 

Milwaukee's troubleshooting instructions recommend opening wide the needle valve and just adjusting with the regulator valve and not using the needle valve at all. When I did that my unit's low pressure gauge didn't show any pressure at all and I couldn't get a steady bubble count.

********

I don't know if this will help anyone else. This has been a frustrating experience but I'm encouraged to see that my bubble count today is the same as it was yesterday. If I was starting over I would probably not go for an all-in-one unit.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I have to say that sounds stupid. All I have to do with my home built units is this.

Attach regulator to cylinder.

Make sure all hoses are attached to regulator.

Open cylinder valve up all the way.

Set low side pressure ONCE.

Set needle valve for desired bubble count ONCE.

Walk away.

Takes longer to type than to do. When I get the cylinder refilled all I do is....

Attach regulator to cylinder.

Open cylinder valve up all the way.

Walk away.


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

Am I the only one who has no issues with them? I've had mine for about 11 monthes...

Dave


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I bought the Milwaukee about 1.5-2 years ago and haven't had only problems apart from my own stupidity.





> Just the other day, I noticed that my solenoid wasn't shutting off with the timer


Do I detect a bit of inconsistency??  :hihi: 

Mike


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Do I detect a bit of inconsistency??  :hihi:
> 
> Mike


I guess he is blaming himself for the solenoid not shutting off :hihi:


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## rpc212 (Sep 29, 2005)

So Milwaukee regulators are crap and I should not buy one?

I think I am going to go for the homebrew regulator. Sounds far more consistent and just set it and walk away. That is what I want! 

Thanks guys!

rpc212 :icon_bigg


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

No, the needle valves that come with the JBJ and Milwaukee regulators are a POC. IMO the regulators are fine, but the needle valves are very inconsistent.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

I know I am skating on thin ice, but my beer regulator with a ball valve is holding a consistant bublle count quite nicely. With a ball valve you almost have to cut off flow to adjust the low pressure side. But cuting off flow is 1/4 turn so pretty quick. Adjusting back - now that is a bear.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

jgc said:


> I know I am skating on thin ice, but my beer regulator with a ball valve is holding a consistant bublle count quite nicely. With a ball valve you almost have to cut off flow to adjust the low pressure side. But cuting off flow is 1/4 turn so pretty quick. Adjusting back - now that is a bear.


The problem with the shutoff valve is that it can be greatly effected by the pressure on the high side. If your CO2 tank gets low you will experience an end of tank dump. Bye bye fish.

IMHO it's worth spending $20 to prevent this and get much finer control.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

...And you're getting this better quality valve at a brew-it-yourself shop for $20 US? I will have to go check that out Rex. I've just set mine up and found that it is inconsistent. But at least it turns on too low rather than too high.


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## jgc (Jul 6, 2005)

am unclear on one thing. I have my low side set to 10 lbs or so (not really sure), but when the end of tank dump hits - it will be putting out several hundred psi. Wouldn't that take out the needle valve?

My current fear is a certain 4 year old giving that ball valve a 1/4 turn twist and being embarrased and not immediately telling me about it.

----
Please note that I do not have a needle valve and have consistant bubble rate via a ball valve


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

The common thread in all these posts about inconsistent bubble rate is the low pressure reading. 10psi is not enough pressure on the low side to get a consistent bubble rate from the needle valve. I thought this was common knowledge.
Set the lowside pressure valve to 30psi, then adjust the needle valve to get a consistent bubble rate. I've had My Milwaukee setup for over 4 years now and I've never had this problem except when I first set it up, because I followed the directions :icon_conf . Turning up the pressure has been discussed at length in these pages years ago and it proves to be the solution 95% of the time.

Marcel


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## shalu (Jan 16, 2003)

m.lemay said:


> Turning up the pressure has been discussed at length in these pages years ago and it proves to be the solution 95% of the time.
> 
> Marcel


And it is much safer at end of tank. But some people do seem to have other problems with the unit.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

What the heck...I'll chime in too...

Well well...after tinkering with my reactor (the new long one) I've noticed my Milwaukee can't hold a decent bubble count to save its life too, so I'm going to kill it once my Azoo comes in on Friday (per recommendation by Momo and Pineappple (APC)). When I had the shorter version of my reactor it held a steady bubble count of about 3-4 bubbles per second, but the new design only needs 1 bubble every 3 seconds. The problem is, I try dialing it down and the back pressure from my reactor seems to be toying with my needle valve now. I notice it will hold the 1 bp 3 sec, but give it a few hours and it will come to a dead stop. At least it will hold it long enough to keep the co2 around 40 ppm...but resetting it constantly is really a major pain. This is with a steady working pressure of 20, 30, and 40 (tried all three). 

Maybe its decent for higher bubble counts only and can't handle the lower ones? 

I've tried messing with it constantly for the past few nights and have just decided to take a damn hammer to it this weekend...what a lousy product (at least the needle valve).


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Matak said:


> ...And you're getting this better quality valve at a brew-it-yourself shop for $20 US? I will have to go check that out Rex. I've just set mine up and found that it is inconsistent. But at least it turns on too low rather than too high.



You won't find a needle valve at a Home Brew shop. You can order one from AquaBotanic though. Or you can locate a Clippard distributor locally. But some distributors don't carry the needle valve in question and won't order a single piece.

And of course I'm talking about the Clippard needle valve here.


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## Tino (Jan 9, 2005)

So I guess a regulator with a preset working pressure is the way to go after all..
The one thing I havn't had problem with with my JBJ is the needle valve ability to hold a steady bubble rate..


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## aronson (May 2, 2005)

Rex Grigg said:


> The problem with the shutoff valve is that it can be greatly effected by the pressure on the high side. If your CO2 tank gets low you will experience an end of tank dump. Bye bye fish.
> 
> IMHO it's worth spending $20 to prevent this and get much finer control.


Rex,

Can you clarify? How will $20 prevent the EOT dump?

FWIW - I have had a Milwaukee setup for 8 months or so and (though I am on my second regulator care of Milwaukee) I find it to be finicky but extremely convenient. Yes, it does require the ocassional tweak - this is not a great enough hassle or concern for me. What is a concern is the EOT dump. I am interested in methods that can be employed to avoid that. If I can stimy that with $20... where do I send the 'hard earned and easily disposable' portion of my income?

Adam


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

A good needle valve on a good regulator will go a long ways towards preventing the end of tank dump. As will a controlled system. That $20 was comparing a needle valve to a ball valve.

But if you really want to prevent end of tank dump then you need to spend a bit more than $20 and get the Clippard MAR-1-3-K. These run maybe a hair over the $20.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

Got a link for that Clippard, Rex?


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Matak said:


> Got a link for that Clippard, Rex?


That's turning out to be a better question that I might have thought :icon_redf . I can't find that part number on the Clippard site. Here's a quick link to a search of 'needle' and 'valve' on their site: http://www.clippard.com/store/search.asp?sku=&description1=needle&andOr=and&description2=valve

I'm also guessing that Rex's earlier post should have been for the MNV-4K (I think he switched the V and the K), which is here: http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MNV-4K


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Which Clippard?

The needle valve? http://clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=MNV-4K

But be advised that Clippard has a huge handling charge. And you will need an adapter that is sold only in a 10 pack. Best bet is www.Aquabotanic.com


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

This is expensive ($89) but I've used it and had good luck with it.

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CO3153


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> This is expensive ($89) but I've used it and had good luck with it.
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CO3153


I was looking at that one. I was not sure if it would just screw on to my Milwaukee regulator though so I did not buy it. 

Rick


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

It doesn't screw on to anything, it attaches to tubing. It comes with a hose barb. Tubing is attached from the barb to the valve, then from the valve to the bubble counter.


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> Which Clippard?


Rex - it's the 'end of tank' dump Clippard that I couldn't find. You mentioned it as "MAR-1-3-K".


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> Best bet is www.Aquabotanic.com


Be advised, you need to follow the smallish "tubing, manifolds, needlevalves...." link near the top of the AB CO2 Systems page to find the needle values. I never even knew the needle valves were out there. Guess I was just expected to see the pictures on the top level CO2 page. Thanks for the pointer, Rex!


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Search for MAR-1-3. The K just means it has a large knurled knob.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Just thought I'd contribute another 2 cents about the Azoo regulator. Right out of the box...plug it in...turn the cylinder to 'open'...set the needle valve (1 bubble every 3 seconds) and poof...done. I even unplugged the solenoid a couple times...waited about 10 minutes or so and plugged it back it (to mimic a controller or power outage) and it's right back to where it was. 

Messing with the needle valve took no more than 5 minutes to get the right setting...short IMO since I'm having it at such a low level. 

The test will be how it works after I come home after heading out to the pubs tonight...tomorrow morning..etc. 

Momo, Pineapple (over at the APC) and the others may be right on about the quality of this one (at least the needle valve). 

Also comes with a 1 year warranty. 

The other ease of installation is the way the regulator is situated on the cyclinder--to the left rather than in front. I'll post a pic later, but it was much easier to attach.


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

Where did you buy it dwag? I am really thinking about taking a hammer to mine. 

What modle did you get?

Thanks Rick


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

rrguymon said:


> Where did you buy it dwag? I am really thinking about taking a hammer to mine.
> 
> What modle did you get?
> 
> Thanks Rick


I got this same exact one from Dr. F and S:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9895&N=2004+113779


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

This thread just keeps growing, I have read a little bit here, thought I would post, I too have the Milwaukee MA957, I have read alot of folks having trouble with these, I have had mine a little over a year I suppose, not had a single problem with it, I use it on more than one tank run one in the day, one at night, I am always moving it unpluging it etc, need another needle valve, but not done it yet, it is always consistant, I set it and walk away.

Maybe they were training a new guy, the day they built your's JB... :icon_redf


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

FWIW, I haven't had any problems with my pH controler by Milwaukee, the sms122. But the all in one caused a pH crash on my small tank I wasn't watching closely enough. After a couple of years I don't think it is as consistent as when I first got it. I suspect, like others its the needle valve. Perhaps the corrosive effect of CO2?? I think I'll go the beer parlor route sometime. But thanks to Rex and Marcel and all for their helpful posts. Great useful thread.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

I think that the problem with the JBJ unit is that it is simply not sensitive enough. If it takes only a tiny nudge to adjust the bubble rate from 1/2 bps to 2+ bps, the needle valve is not a fine enough adjuster. Now if it took a full half turn to change the bubble rate from 1bps to 2 bps, I think that it could easily maintain its flow rate between on/off states.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

If you want the fine of control be prepared to buy a metering valve. And be prepared to dump in the neighborhood of around $70 for the valve alone. 

The needle valves we are using are actually not designed for the low flow rates we use. It's nice that most of them can do the job for the few dollars they cost.


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## AussieTanker (Dec 13, 2003)

Rex ...

On your website under the CO2 heading you make the following recommendation ...



> Now the best thing to do is go to somewhere like AquaBotanic or Aquatic-Store and get the Milwaukee All-in-one unit. It will save you time and money.


*Have you changed your mind on this because of the problems that many seem to be having with this unit on this and other threads? ......because on reading your posts on this thread you seem to advocate building your own system .... and therefore do you have any personal recommendations as to a good reliable regulator ... or can you suggest just a few of the better regarded brands *

here in australia the home brew people seem to commonly sell the Harris brand plus a few others that i have not heard of ... i can pick up a brand new one for about $80Au on ebay .... are the home brew ones "sturdier" than the regular Aquarium ones? ...

much to my surprise it seems that the clippard needle valve is sold here in Australia and it seems that i can get the one you recommended (MNV-4K) for about $30Au .....

can you also give a link or more info re the adaptor thing please !

i can make the bubble counter as per your instructions ... so that's no big deal 

i can buy the jbl solenoid (i already have one on another tank) ... but it's very expensive here... i can't remember exactly how much ... but it's well over several hundred dollars ... i may be able to track down some kind of solenoid from an industrial supply company ..

do you have any recommendations in regards to the pH controllers (ie the milwaukee sms 122 ) or do you just run your co2 24/7 ... and if so why don't you use a controller to be more precise ?...

thanks again ....

*also... has anyone had any experience with .... or recommendation in regard to this "all in one unit" shown *... here


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

You mean other than being almost double the cost of what all the sponsors here charge for comparable units?


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## AussieTanker (Dec 13, 2003)

in response to the previous post "opiesilver" said ...



> You mean other than being almost double the cost of what all the sponsors here charge for comparable units?


i am sorry but that response is not really very helpful at all and doesn't answer my question .... it also doesn't tell me anything at all about the unit that i asked about... or your experience or knowledge of it's effectiveness, reliability and quality ... other than the fact that is is apparently double the cost of some other unspecified unit available from somewhere else ... 

*i thought that this was a forum to help one another ... ....*

if you feel that there is a better option that could be purchased or considered then it would have been more helpful to have provided the actual information or appropriate links... 

* bear in mind that i ... along with a number of other members of this forum do NOT live in the USA .... we find it VERY difficult to source equipt locally ..and what we can get is usually very expensive ... unfortunately most online usa retailers do not ship overseas .. the one given in the link apparently does ... which is why i was considering that unit .... i have also been considering a number of items from aquariumplants.com ... they are on my list of those few suppliers that will ship internationally ... but again .. your comment really doesn't answer my question about the unit in question does it? .... and because of the cost of international shipping it's a bit hard to "send it back" if it doesn't work properly ... so some care and fact finding needs to be undertaken before purchases are made for most of us that live outside the usa * .. 

... if you know of better value products that are as good then perhaps it would have been more helpful to have identified them and the suppliers of those products ..

*now .. can anybody else help with some advice* ... if there is a comparable unit elsewhere that is half the cost of the one shown in the link then please point me in the right direction ... i'm very happy to pay less if someone can "show the way"


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

I have one of the homebrew regulators...I'm not sure of the brand, but it's this one here: http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulator/double/342.shtml and I use the clippard needle valve that was mentioned before. I wish I knew where to get the adapter, but I got mine from a hobbyist on this site a long time ago.

That setup works very well so long as you don't mind not having a solenoid and building your own bubblecounters is as easy as having a cool drink of water and building one with the leftover bottle like Rex does.


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## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

AussieTanker said:


> *now .. can anybody else help with some advice* ... if there is a comparable unit elsewhere that is half the cost of the one shown in the link then please point me in the right direction ... i'm very happy to pay less if someone can "show the way"


 The regulator shown looks suspiciously exactly like a Milwaukee unit, which I own. I've had mine for five years now with no problems. If you can get the milwaukee or JBJ down under at a reasonable cost, do it. They're both fine IMO. Everyone around here seems to like to split hairs. I just need something that works.

Marcel


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

AussieTanker said:


> i am sorry but that response is not really very helpful at all and doesn't answer my question .... it also doesn't tell me anything at all about the unit that i asked about... or your experience or knowledge of it's effectiveness, reliability and quality ... other than the fact that is is apparently double the cost of some other unspecified unit available from somewhere else ...
> 
> *i thought that this was a forum to help one another ... ....*
> 
> if you feel that there is a better option that could be purchased or considered then it would have been more helpful to have provided the actual information or appropriate links...


Had you asked something like "Where could I get one of these shipped to Australia at a resonable cost?" you would have got the answer you were looking for. Good luck in your search.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Most any standard beer regulator will work. You should be able to get the adapter from the same place you get the needle valve. When I pick up the check valves next week I will also pick up some of the adapters. The ones I get will go from 1/8" and 1/4" NPT to the 10-32 threads that the needle valve uses.

I'm not sure what the threads on the regulators in AU are going to be. You would need to remove the large hose fitting that one would use for dispensing beer and measure it. Then go get the needle valve and adapter.

The Clippard part numbers for the adapters are:

2CPF is the 1/8 NPT to 10-32
4CQF is the 1/4 NPT to 10-32
6CWF is the 3/8 NPT to 10-32
8CZF is the 1/2 NPT to 10-32

Now mind you these adapters come in packs of 10. But they are pretty inexpensive.

I personally have built every CO2 system I run. I just prefer to do it that way. I run my CO2 24/7 on all my tanks. I'm to cheap to buy another gadget right now and besides my kH is never constant.

A solenoid is actually a pretty easy item to find. The local place I get my needle valves from sells solenoids of all types. But since I don't use them I don't buy them.

BTW NPT is National Pipe Thread and is the commonly used measure of pipe threads in the US.


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## AussieTanker (Dec 13, 2003)

thank you rex .... most helpful..... as usual


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## jart (Jan 17, 2003)

Georgiadawgger said:


> Just thought I'd contribute another 2 cents about the Azoo regulator.


Anyone know for sure if this unit (available mailorder via the link that Dawgger provided) would connect to a Milwaukee SMS-122?


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

jart said:


> Anyone know for sure if this unit (available mailorder via the link that Dawgger provided) would connect to a Milwaukee SMS-122?


It should...it has a three prong standard grounded outlet...isn't that what goes into the controller (can't remember since its been so long since I used one).


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

It will and it does, Jart! roud: 

I have the AZOO regulator running off the Milwaukee SMS 122 right now.


Mike


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## travdawg (Mar 16, 2005)

FWIW I got the inline needle valve from fishvet.com

http://www.fishvet.com/store/itemdetail.tmpl?sku=09202001142647

I have it on a 10 gallon atm & havent adjusted it but once since I got it. I bought another one to go on my planne 90 gallon, they are inline so I shouldnt have any probs.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

*This just in...*

I hooked up the CO2 line to the venturi port on my spray bar (on my XP3). It was first hooked up to a Boyu diffuser, then to an airstone. I used to have to adjust my needle valve about 4 times per day (if I was home), but I haven't had to adjust it in three full days. Could the difference in back pressure be the culprit?


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Matak, that makes quiet a bit of sense. 
If the back pressure is greater than that of your CO2 output, it should slow down the bubbles. 
It also explains why some people have problems, and others don't.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

So if the line of reasoning is sound, then plugging the CO2 line into an inline reactor like the Rex reactor would lessen the backpressure effect as well?


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Depends on how you run it in. Here is my take on it:
It depends on 2 things: 
1) How you run your CO2 line into the reactor
2) how well water flows through your reactor.
I ran the CO2 tubing from the top just like Rex's design, in the same direction as the water flow (very little back pressure) the rushing water should actually help pull the gas out from the tubing. If you put it in perpendicular to the water flow you I would think you would get some back pressure, and if you put it in against the water flow, you should get a whole lot of back pressure.
Now, if you are loosing a lot of flow it would mean that there is going to be a lot more backpressure to the CO2 line, no matter how you ran it, as the water is trying to find the easiest route of escape. 

Disclaimer: The views expressed above are all just the theories of a lonely man, and are based on nothing that resembles a science in any way shape or form. It’s all just the result of brainstorming his reactor design.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

A needle valve will run more consistently if you leave it on all the time and turn off the power to the powerhead etc running the device.

Throttling with a solenoid at higher pressure will cause the valve to bounce back and forth and little when the pressure changes, temp changes also cause flow rate changes, not much with the good ones.

It's a fine tuned valve, lots of pressure changes can jar it slightly.

The Clippards are okay and will do the job, from there I'd goa Fabco or the Nupro Swagelok (these are about 38-70$ depending on which model you want).

Some open the cheapy valve more and use a controller. Should anything fail with that set up, you will have too much CO2. But if not, it'll work.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## shuks (Jul 10, 2005)

> So if the line of reasoning is sound, then plugging the CO2 line into an inline reactor like the Rex reactor would lessen the backpressure effect as well?


Exactly the opposite. No matter what, there will alwayse be ALOT more back-pressure when your running an inline reacotor than say a bubble ladder.


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## Matak (Aug 10, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> Throttling with a solenoid at higher pressure will cause the valve to bounce back and forth and little when the pressure changes, temp changes also cause flow rate changes, not much with the good ones.
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
> 
> www.BarrReport.com


Up here in the deep north, alot of us use setback thermometers and the morning temp and the afternoon temp can vary by as much as 8°F. This could be a source.


shuks said:


> Exactly the opposite. No matter what, there will alwayse be ALOT more back-pressure when your running an inline reacotor than say a bubble ladder.


I was thinking more along the lines of an airstone or ceramic disk diffuser where the CO2 is forced through and requires a lot of pressure to work.


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## Kyle (Jul 19, 2005)

I can attest from experience with paintball that the temperature variances have a dramatic effect on output pressure.

In paintball, if you are using CO2 as a powersource, as your tank heats up, the velocity on your marker can "spike" greatly as the output pressure on the tank increases. This is partially why most markers in paintball today run off of compressed air rather than CO2.

The temperature in my apartment varies greatly as does my output pressure, so I kind of just adjust it as the weather changes, and assume that the BPS is going to vary with the room temp during the course of a day.


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## Jackfrost (Jan 8, 2005)

Opiesilver said:


> You mean other than being almost double the cost of what all the sponsors here charge for comparable units?


Comparable to what ? These units are the bottom of the barrel. The JBJ, and Mil regulators, are intended to be cheap, and mass produced. People want cheap and thus there is a market for them. Then they find out that they don't like the performance. Well,...thats what happens when you buy cheap.

You don't buy KIA and expect it to drive like a Ferrari. 

Performance is equivalent to the quality of the components. Sure, now and then you will get some units that will perform better than others, but the manufacturing and quality tolerances of the components used are so broad that manufacting mutliple units with the same performnce characteristics is almost impossible. That is why some folks have good experiences and other don't.

Again, that is why the units are so cheap. You get what you pay for.

The metering valve that Rex has recommended is a good solution and an excellent alternative to the JBJ and Mil. I agree with Rex that a homemade unit will outperform the JBJ and Mil units and will COST LESS.

A few years back there was a company called Marine Monsters that use to assemble and sell such units for planted tanks. They basically did what Rex has suggested. The would use the Clipard valve with a decent quality regulator. I have one of those units from Marine Monsters (no use in searching for them. They are defunct as a company.), and it has been operating for 6 years now with no problems.

I don't see why more people don't assemble their own units, rather than insist on buying the el'chepo JBJ and Mil units.

Maybe a construction thread of such a unit would help people see how easy it is to build one.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL !


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

About 5 years ago we used to carry surgical grade CO2 equipment that was light years beyond Milwaukee or JBJ regulator. They came with a flow meter that was incredibly accurate. They were the best regulators you could possibly get and better than any homemade I have ever seen, but because of the precision with which they were built they also came with a very high price tag. No one wanted to buy them. Would you pay $600 for a CO2 regulator? We sold more to doctors offices and hospitals than fish keepers.


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## Jackfrost (Jan 8, 2005)

Opiesilver said:


> About 5 years ago we used to carry surgical grade CO2 equipment that was light years beyond Milwaukee or JBJ regulator. They came with a flow meter that was incredibly accurate. They were the best regulators you could possibly get and better than any homemade I have ever seen, but because of the precision with which they were built they also came with a very high price tag. No one wanted to buy them. Would you pay $600 for a CO2 regulator? We sold more to doctors offices and hospitals than fish keepers.



My point exactly ! Precision and quality come with a cost, and most people would rather complain and own a JBJ and Mil, rather than shell out $600.

However, I still believe that everyone can do much better by picking up a regualtor from a brew company and installing a clippard valve on it. It will also be cheaper, as Rex has already stated.

Most people want easy and cheap. Thats why JBJ and Mil are in bussiness. Just don't complain about it ...


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

AaronT said:


> Sometimes it is also that you have not opened the CO2 cylinder itself enough.
> 
> Here's my tried and true method for adjusting and setting up the bubble rate on the Milwaukee regulator.
> 
> ...



I've tried your method many times and it doesn't work. My bubble count still drops after a few days.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

I never was able to really address the issue. I raised the pressure to 30psi, that seemed to help a little. I ended up putting the tank on a controller, so bubble count is less of an issue.

jB


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Hmmm. I was actually thinking about resurrecting this thread myself. Though I have a controller, so the bubble count isn't as important, the inconsistency of the all-in-one has always bothered me. Buoyed by Rex's DIY all-in-one and noting that my regulator seemed to be slowly "shutting itself off" when set too low, I decided to replace the regulator first. I ran my first test last night, I got the new regulator fixed today (ugh!) and I'll see how it goes.


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## beaucon (Feb 4, 2005)

This is just a thought. Lots of things hold their setting when the are adjusted in one direction and not in the other. For instance guitar tuners are like that. If you tune up to the note they will hold if you tune down they will not. Lots of machine work that way. They have to have some slack so they are adjustable and the manufacture can only compensate for the slack in one direction, not both.


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

I've been reading this thread... I'm thinking about changing out my unreliable JBJ w/bubble counter for this regulator http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CO3111 and upgrading to a Super Precision Metering Valve. I use a Mil SMS122 controller, so shall I dump the bubble counter or get this model? http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=CO3117


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Build your own.


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

Do you have links to sources for building your own? Can you spec me some top-of-the-line equipment. I found a good regulator I think... NADS http://morebeer.com/product_images/1/1725.jpg 

Should I dump the bubble counter since I use the SMS122? 

Thanks


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Jackfrost said:


> A few years back there was a company called Marine Monsters that use to assemble and sell such units for planted tanks. They basically did what Rex has suggested. The would use the Clipard valve with a decent quality regulator. I have one of those units from Marine Monsters (no use in searching for them. They are defunct as a company.), and it has been operating for 6 years now with no problems.


They are still being sold. I don't know if they are selling backstock or if they are still being made by the same manufacturer which Monolith Marine Monsters used.

http://www.marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idProduct=CO3111

This is the one I use. It comes with Monolith Marine Monsters logo and branding (note the m3 logo in the image). Excellent quality and performance.


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

Does the Monster regulator have any safety features... does it shut off if PSI reaches 60? I liked my JBJ because you didn't have to set the pressure. The NADS regulator sounds really good. 

http://www.nadsinc.com/products/co2_primary_regs/1.html


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Here's my regulator with the needle valve replaced with the mass flow controller:


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

Damn that looks nice. What do all the readings mean?


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

That was shortly after I hooked it up. I currently have it set to 35 SCCM.

SCCM = standard cubic centimeters per minute = millilters per minute

It shows current temperature of the gas, the volume of flow, and the mass of flow.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Here is a link.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/d...egulator-56k-warning.html?highlight=regulator

I use only Cornelius regulators as they are pretty much the gold standard in the beer industry. I can't find them on the web cheaper than what my local guy sells them for.

As for the rest. If you want very top of the line then you need a Swagelok metering valve. ~$50 in brass and ~$100 in stainless steel. Us poor folks use a Clippard needle valve. If you want extremely fine control then couple that with a Clippard low pressure regulator.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> That was shortly after I hooked it up. I currently have it set to 35 SCCM.
> 
> SCCM = standard cubic centimeters per minute = millimeters per minute
> 
> It shows current temperature of the gas, the volume of flow, and the mass of flow.


Where did you get it? what's the make/model #?


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## dennx (Aug 11, 2004)

OK I found the Cornelius online: http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=4885

banderbe here's the Cole-Parmer mass flow controller: http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=3290759

Rex, does the Cornelius regulator have any safety features like shut-off and/or relief valve?

Nobody has really answered this quaetion for me, if I use a SMS122, should I forget about using a bubble counter?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

That's funny. I get the regulator for cheaper than that locally.

All decent regulators have a blow out disc in case of over pressure.

$1160 for a mass flow controller. Yeah those will sell like hot cakes.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Rex Grigg said:


> $1160 for a mass flow controller. Yeah those will sell like hot cakes.


As I mentioned on page 1, it isn't cheap by any means, but it's super nice.


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## BuffaloM (Jan 10, 2005)

Rex Grigg said:


> Damn for what that runs you can get a really good beer regulator and solenoid and needle valve.
> 
> Regulator: $50 local home brew store.
> *Solenoid: $24*
> Needle Valve" $10.


Rex,
Where can one get a solenoid for $24?
I was searching for Azoo and needle to see if the $75 DF&S Azoo regulator came with a needle valve. I had given up on the idea of building my own because I couldn't find a solenoid for less than $49. So $49 + $40 regulator = $90 before the other parts. But we all know the ultimate joy comes from building your own __fill in the blank__ (as long as it doesn't cost you more).
In the last week of researching I think I've read at least 30 posts where you say you don't use a solenoid yourself, but if its only going to add $25 to the cost, I'm willing to pay that just so I can avoid driving to get the tank refilled as often.

While I'm posting,
I saw this beer regulator has a safety relief valve at 55-65 PSI. Am I correct to assume that if the tank drops to ~60 PSI that it'll bleed the remaining co2 and avoid the end of tank dump?
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draftbeer/regulator/double/642.shtml


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I have solenoids for $35.

The days of $24 solenoids is over I fear. I would rather pay more to build a solid unit than save a few bucks and get a POS.

The 55-65 PSI pressure relief valve means if you get more than 55-65 PSI of pressure though the regulator it will dump to the air. And most any decent regulator does the same thing.


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