# End of tank dump with dual stage CO2 regulator?



## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

A few days ago I lost my corydoras and otocinclus to what I think was an end of tank CO2 dump, but I'm not 100% sure. When I got home late Friday night after being gone all day I found them dead with no signs of injury or external parasites. The corys appeared to be flushed pinkish red on the white underside of their heads. My Betta, the only other fish in the tank, seemed to be fine and acting normal as did several nuisance pond snails. The Source pressure gauge on my dual-stage regulator was reading zero (it read ~800 psi when I checked a couple days earlier) and the working pressure gauge was reading about 5 psi (previously set at ~25 psi) with the solenoid turned off. Since I got home late that night the CO2 had been shut off and the air pump had been running for a few hours so I couldn't tell from the drop checker what the CO2 levels had been.

From everything I observed, along with the fact that I was planning to refill the CO2 tank soon this looks like an end of tank dump that killed my fish. I'm a bit concerned though since I had read that a dual stage regulator was unlikely to experience EOTD which is why I specifically looked for a dual-stage. Was I wrong in thinking that? 

I've disconnected the CO2 tank and haven't refilled it yet since I'm paranoid about some other malfunction having caused the dump although there isn't any visible damage and nothing has happened that would have been likely to cause damage.

Any suggestions for testing that my regulator is operating safely before resuming use on my aquarium? Is there anything else I should check? 

P.S. Unfortunately I was worried about byproducts from the dead fish in the water and did an immediate water change without thinking to take and test/save some water samples first.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

As for checking for proper function, refill the cylinder, hook it up, and watch closely for a few days. The CO2Art regs are pretty new, so there just isn't any long-term reliability data available about them. But unless you have a massive tank, there's no way a cylinder will go from 800 to 0 in two days with a normally functioning regulator. Are you sure it was only a couple days from 800 to zero? It's possible that the needle valve was accidentally opened wide, and it's possible the relief valve on the reg blew out. Catastrophic regulator failure might be a possibility, but pretty unlikely. Send a PM to CO2Art (the member) and see what he says.

If you have the time, read up on Bettatail's leak test, and follow instructions.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/137245-complete-leak-check-co2-pressurized-system.html


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

First, and forgive me for asking, you are sure it is a dual stage reg not just dual gauge..

Second pressure could go from 800 to zero in a short time since the pressure stays stable till all the liquid CO2 is gone. The tank volume is then the only volume of gas left.
That said when mine drops it takes days to go from 600psi to like 300psi but I "dribble" CO2, probably way below most people.

It is relatively uncommon (seems arguable) to get EOTD even w/ a single stage and should be almost impossible w/ a dual stage..



> That is why CO2 tank pressure is constant (at a given temperature) until it's almost empty (i.e., no liquid is left), and then falls off rapidly as the remaining residual gas is quickly used up.


co2 tank care

Sooo if your tank went from 800 to zero in a few days you ewere for whatever reason, discharging a lot of CO2...


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thank you both for for your responses. It's certainly possible that I misread the gauge when I read it as 800. I usually end up reading it from an awkward angle so I wouldn't be terribly surprised if I got it wrong. I also didn't record the date that I last checked it, but I know it was last week, so 1-5 days before the deaths. I agree that even if it was less than 800 it's still a lot to loose so fast, which is why I'm worried that something may be wrong.

Thanks for the links. I'm reading over those and I'll check the needle valve and try the leak test when I get home. I imagine an open needle valve could let the gas out pretty fast. I'm thinking that if the problem is a leak though that most of the lost CO2 would have gone into the room rather than the tank. Am I wrong in thinking that?

Jeffkrol, that's fine that you asked whether it really is a two stage regulator. I double checked myself after this happened. I'm about as certain as a beginner who has never owned another regulator can be that it is dual stage. I specifically chose one that was listed as dual stage. It says dual stage on the box and the manual. It's configuration looks like pictures I have seen of dual stage regulators and is different from the single stage, two gauge regulators sold by the same company so I'm reasonably confident it's dual stage.


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## AlanLe (Jan 10, 2013)

Upload a picture of your reg.


-Alan


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Here is a photo of my regulator.









Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well it is a new design:
Stupid tiny image.. 









Best to write to CO2 Art and see what they say..

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/218-co2art-ltd/726889-dual-stage-not-dual-stage.html


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## WaterLife (Jul 1, 2015)

Here I will just tag @co2art so he can get notified about this thread.




Sucks to hear about this. 

I just bought the same regulator as in the link, but haven't used it yet (waiting on reactor still). Just to know, how long have you had this regulator in use? Is this the first time you let the co2 cylinder run this low (not sure how low, EOTD occurs)?

The dual stage regulator chamber is within the black piece attached/built-into the main regulator (bottom left of main regulator). 
From a thread I read, the dual stage regulator was tested for EOTD and it prevented the dump so it worked (at least the one used in the test worked), but doesn't mean all of them work/none would malfunction (which is possible for every brand regulator though).

I do not know enough about regulator, needle valve, and solenoids to confidently say what caused your fish to die (maybe something else malfunctioned, not EOTD, or maybe it was, I personally don't know).

But was the betta or snails also showing signs of too high levels of co2? Were the snails climbing out of the water or staying at the water surface? Was the water turning to acidic and the snails shells were pitting/dissolving? Was the Betta gasping at the surface? Were the Corydoras *constantly* rushing to the water surface for air or possibly *staying
* at the water surface for more oxygen/lower levels of co2 (atmospheric gas exchange at surface/less co2 at surface due to off gassing)? Were the fish flashing (smacking themselves/their gills against the substrate or objects)? Was there a lot of co2 bubbles or pearling within the tank?

The Betta and snails can breathe the surface air so it kind of makes sense they could survive longer in a co2 overdosed tank (even though others say the pH drop would kill them). Corydoras also can breathe surface air, but they generally just go up for gulps of air, not hovering/sticking to the water surface constantly breathing in surface air (unless they were unusually hovering at the water surface), and they are bottom dwellers so the co2 concentration is probably higher closer to the substrate where they are, so it makes sense why they might die from asphyxiation before the other inhabitants.

I haven't witnessed co2 gassing fish to death so I can't comment as to the color of "co2 overdosed" fish's gills. Are you saying their gills had more areas of pink, yet they were a pale-ish pink at the same time, or were the gills more darker red or???


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Thanks. I'll get in touch with CO2Art. I've had pretty good luck on communications with them in the past.

After I said I would test for leaks when I got home I realized that I would obviously need to get the tank refilled first, so I haven't been able to do that yet.

WaterLife, I've had the regulator for about 4-5 months. This is the first time the tank ran low with it. Sadly, the day the fish died I fed them in the morning before going to work and I didn't get home again until well after midnight. They were ok when I left and dead when I got home. It had also been several hours since the lights and CO2 solenoid shut off and the air pump started up so the pH could probably have moved significantly closer to normal in that time, but since I wasn't there to see it I can't be sure. 

I have seen the behavior you described once after I first set up my CO2 system and got the levels too high. I re-oxygenated the water that time using the air pump in significantly less time than it would have been running by the time I got home that night.

The redness in the corys was all around the less pigmented areas of their heads, not just around the gills. I'm not sure of the source but I'm pretty sure I've read that can be a sign of CO2 poisoning.

At this point I'm definitely going to contact the manufacturer to see if they can help in figuring out exactly what went wrong. I'll also be doing the test linked earlier once I get the tank filled again. 

It sounds like it shouldn't have been an EOTD, but something definitely went wrong so I hope I can find out what it was.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Funny thing is I was just going through something similar w/ my CO2. Tank is approaching empty and I've upped my CO2 to compensate for some heavier algae growth than tolerable.
Just a slight tweak to the metering valve mind you.

Next day my Nerites decided to hang above the water line. Angels had slight reddish line of gills showing. Guppies lined up and point upstream at surface like they do when the water goes "bad".. 

Fortunately didn't lose any fish but it was really a day or 2 before I realized it was a problem..

Oh and filter was in need of a cleaning so flow was slightly reduced from normal..


Point is it doesn't take much to go from "OK" to critical when you are on the edge..


Second point is not to live on the edge unless you are very careful...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I can't say with any certainty that it was EOTD but Betta's can handle super high levels of CO2, especially for short periods of time due to the fact they are labyrinth fish. Same with Gouramis. Well, I can't say that from a scientific level, I can say from a practical level (or level of understanding due to injecting impractical levels of CO2) that they seem to be the least affected of almost any fish I have ever kept by high CO2 levels, especially for short periods of time. Pond snails survive too. From what died and what didn't, it makes sense that EOTD happened. On the flip side, I don't get how a dual stage could have EOTD by the way they work, much less the fact it seems it's rare with single stage, my very cheap single stage doesn't do it either. Given your post, it would be the first guess for me.


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## TheGreenKnight (Sep 4, 2015)

I was just about to order one of these dual stage regulators. Has anyone else had a similar problem with CO2 art? Has their Customer Support been responsive?


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

I am in the same boat as greenknight. I was going to buy the exact same regulator for my first pressurized unit but I have been pushing it off until I heard more info from US customers. I am very interested in C02art's response.


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## mba (Jul 18, 2011)

I would recommend building your own custom regulator. These 3rd party regulators are good for the price but at the end these are Chinese made parts, correct if I am wrong. 

I never got a actual answer of where these parts came from. From what I can see these are very similar to the chinese regulators which you can find on ebay and other sites.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Where exactly is co2 art?


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## Jaxfisher (Jun 2, 2013)

I have had exactly the same thing as you, iceberg. With 3 different regulators; the last one being the dual-stage reg you have from CO2 Art. I am new to CO2. I went by the primer from this form, assembled the recommended components & had my mechanical engineer husband assemble. 1st reg was single stage & my 20# tank lasted only a couple weeks. The only animals I had in the tank were a shrimp & neurite snail. I didn't want to jeopardize any of my fish while learning. Tanked lasted about 4-5 wks on a 20g tank, seeming to dump quickly at about 800 lbs remaining. Same think happened w/ next tank fill. Bought a new reg & switched it out & same thing happened. Frustration & determination caused me to change to a dual stage, so I made the purchase. Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker. I am now at my wits end & am ready to give up on the pretty plants that require CO2. I had to walk away from it. Will re-group & try again. Trying to deal w/ the algae outbreak in the tank now. Ack!


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## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

Jaxfisher said:


> I have had exactly the same thing as you, iceberg. With 3 different regulators; the last one being the dual-stage reg you have from CO2 Art. I am new to CO2. I went by the primer from this form, assembled the recommended components & had my mechanical engineer husband assemble. 1st reg was single stage & my 20# tank lasted only a couple weeks. The only animals I had in the tank were a shrimp & neurite snail. I didn't want to jeopardize any of my fish while learning. Tanked lasted about 4-5 wks on a 20g tank, seeming to dump quickly at about 800 lbs remaining. Same think happened w/ next tank fill. Bought a new reg & switched it out & same thing happened. Frustration & determination caused me to change to a dual stage, so I made the purchase. Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker. I am now at my wits end & am ready to give up on the pretty plants that require CO2. I had to walk away from it. Will re-group & try again. Trying to deal w/ the algae outbreak in the tank now. Ack!


How can you possible only get 4 weeks out of a 20lb. I have a 55g and i am running 6BPS and my drop checker is yellow, i only have a 5lb tank yet it has been 8 weeks and i still havent gone below 800 PSI


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Jaxfisher said:


> I have had exactly the same thing as you, iceberg. With 3 different regulators; the last one being the dual-stage reg you have from CO2 Art. I am new to CO2. I went by the primer from this form, assembled the recommended components & had my mechanical engineer husband assemble. 1st reg was single stage & my 20# tank lasted only a couple weeks. The only animals I had in the tank were a shrimp & neurite snail. I didn't want to jeopardize any of my fish while learning. Tanked lasted about 4-5 wks on a 20g tank, seeming to dump quickly at about 800 lbs remaining. Same think happened w/ next tank fill. Bought a new reg & switched it out & same thing happened. Frustration & determination caused me to change to a dual stage, so I made the purchase. Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker. I am now at my wits end & am ready to give up on the pretty plants that require CO2. I had to walk away from it. Will re-group & try again. Trying to deal w/ the algae outbreak in the tank now. Ack!


It sounds like you have a leak somewhere. Was it tested for leaks? If you used up that much co2 in a 20G that quickly, I'm pretty sure everything would be dead in the tank. A 20# on a 20G should last over a year.


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## gotfish (Oct 27, 2007)

My experience with Co2art customer service has been good. They have replied to all my emails within a day or two.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Jaxfisher said:


> I have had exactly the same thing as you, iceberg. With 3 different regulators; the last one being the dual-stage reg you have from CO2 Art. I am new to CO2. I went by the primer from this form, assembled the recommended components & had my mechanical engineer husband assemble. 1st reg was single stage & my 20# tank lasted only a couple weeks. The only animals I had in the tank were a shrimp & neurite snail. I didn't want to jeopardize any of my fish while learning. Tanked lasted about 4-5 wks on a 20g tank, seeming to dump quickly at about 800 lbs remaining. Same think happened w/ next tank fill. Bought a new reg & switched it out & same thing happened. Frustration & determination caused me to change to a dual stage, so I made the purchase. Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker. I am now at my wits end & am ready to give up on the pretty plants that require CO2. I had to walk away from it. Will re-group & try again. Trying to deal w/ the algae outbreak in the tank now. Ack!


You absolutely, positively, I'd bet my next paycheck on it, have a big leak somewhere. Get some kiddie bubble blowing solution or mix a squirt of dish soap with a cup of water, and apply liberally to every single connection. The leak is big, so you won't have any trouble finding it. In fact, it's big enough that you might actually be able to hear it if you remove all other noise and put your head next to the regulator.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

BruceF said:


> Where exactly is co2 art?


UK or England if you prefer (needed more words )


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## co2art (May 28, 2014)

Hi, Iceburg. I'm sorry to hear that you lost some fish. 

I do not think what happened was what most of us refer to as an end of tank dump. My guess is that you were right on the edge with how much co2 you were using. And a couple of psi rise in pressure was just enough to push you over. 

When I originally tested these things, I found that these tiny dual stages did have a very small rise in pressure as the cylinder lost pressure. 1-2 psi is all ever saw. It's completely possible that yours did in fact have more of a problem holding pressure than normal. I would be happy to test it for you if you wish. There a couple of ways to test this at home. I can walk you through it. Just send me a pm.

Sorry for the late response, I kept waiting to see an email or pm show up in my in box. 

Just out of curiosity, what size aquarium did this happen to?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Jaxfisher said:


> Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker.


Yea that is crazy talk.... 20# 4 weeks.. massive leak. Likely place is the cga/tank attachment and a cheap paper gasket.. Get the plastic/teflon ones. Check the rest of the system A leak that big should be easy to find.
Other possibility is just a bad needle valve and poor CO2/water absorption..

Bottom line: That is not anywhere near "normal"..


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## TheGreenKnight (Sep 4, 2015)

My 20oz paintball tank lasts longer than 4 weeks.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## co2art (May 28, 2014)

co2art said:


> Hi, Iceburg. I'm sorry to hear that you lost some fish.
> 
> I do not think what happened was what most of us refer to as an end of tank dump. My guess is that you were right on the edge with how much co2 you were using. And a couple of psi rise in pressure was just enough to push you over.
> 
> ...


Hello Iceburg

Can you please kindly contact Josh. As he mentioned he can test this regulator for you or guide how to test it.

If this regulator suffered from EOTD (which I really doubt as we sold 1000s and this is first time I heard about pressure rising enough high to kill fishes) we will send you our top range regulator completely for free as compensation.

Please keep us updated.

Best regards
Karol


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Quick update. I've contacted Josh from CO2Art. I've refilled my CO2 tank and I'm in the process of testing the regulator. So far it's looking like it's OK.


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## TheGreenKnight (Sep 4, 2015)

Were you able to identify a leak or whatever the problem was?


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## iceburg (Jan 30, 2015)

Sorry for the slow response.

I've been putting the regulator through several test scenarios and it's performed properly in all of them. So that leaves a bit of a question as to what went wrong before. While it's been offline I've done a full rescape thanks to a black Friday sale at my LFS where I got some ADA Aquasoil and new plants and spider wood, and I'll be putting the regulator back into service when I'm done with that. For now it will still just be the betta in the tank and I'll be keeping a close eye on the CO2 levels, but the testing has made me feel safe using the regulator again.


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## Fishbarrie (Feb 13, 2015)

I would suspect your needle valve. I would suggest purchasing the best high end valve you can afford (along with a bubble counter) and test it out from there. Good luck and hopefully it all works out for you.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Jaxfisher said:


> I have had exactly the same thing as you, iceberg. With 3 different regulators; the last one being the dual-stage reg you have from CO2 Art. I am new to CO2. I went by the primer from this form, assembled the recommended components & had my mechanical engineer husband assemble. 1st reg was single stage & my 20# tank lasted only a couple weeks. The only animals I had in the tank were a shrimp & neurite snail. I didn't want to jeopardize any of my fish while learning. Tanked lasted about 4-5 wks on a 20g tank, seeming to dump quickly at about 800 lbs remaining. Same think happened w/ next tank fill. Bought a new reg & switched it out & same thing happened. Frustration & determination caused me to change to a dual stage, so I made the purchase. Hooked it up & again got 4 wks out of the 20# tank. Color never changed from blue in the drop checker. I am now at my wits end & am ready to give up on the pretty plants that require CO2. I had to walk away from it. Will re-group & try again. Trying to deal w/ the algae outbreak in the tank now. Ack!


You have a big leak and its not getting into the tank. That is why no color change on drop checker.
I have a 20# bottle on a 20g tank.
I run a pretty high bubble count and I get nearly 9 months out of a bottle.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

ichy said:


> You have a big leak and its not getting into the tank. That is why no color change on drop checker.
> I have a 20# bottle on a 20g tank.
> I run a pretty high bubble count and I get nearly 9 months out of a bottle.


+1
I pretty much just skimmed thru the first page so I am not 100% up to date but I wanted to chime in before going to bed tonight. I think there is a big malfunction somewhere that caused the big leak. Either human or mechanical error somewhere as something is not right. Going from 800-0 is nearly impossible under normal conditions. A leak that big should have been heard hissing from the bottle/connections. Do a post connection test. Meaning test just the regulator itself prior to gas entering the solenoid. You will have to disconnect some things and plug them to get the best results.

I have (1) 5lb and it takes 2-3 months to deplete ran 24/7. My (2) 20lbs tanks on my plant only tanks run 15-20 bps possibly and I get 6-7 months when on a timer. The pic you posted doesn't indicate a typical dual stage regulator. That regulator in the pic is fairly close to the box behind it and I don't see a bulge touching the box. Do you have a clear pic of the back side of the regulator. Dual stage regulators have an extra bulge that protrudes from the back of the regulator. This is where the second valve is housed. Having 2 gauges is not the same as a dual regulator. Many people mistake and mislabel the two. Your regulator appears to be flat on the back base on what I observe without seeing a pic of the back. I can barely see the little small diagram of what the regulator is suppose to be but the new design in my opinion sacrifices too much from what true dual regulators don't. It looks like an attempt to make a Milwaukee regulator, a dual stage one.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

The company that sold it to you should be able to provide you with data on the supply pressure effect for that regulator.

Here's an example of manufacturer data for supply pressure effect:

http://www.parker.com/literature/Veriflo/Veriflo - pdf files/25000226_IR4000.pdf

This document has a good description of supply pressure effect:

http://www.parker.com/literature/Veriflo/Veriflo - pdf files/25000169_Pressure_Regulators_IO.pdf

CO2Art could have completely revolutionized the pressure regulator industry and figured out something that the liked of Veriflo and Airgas couldn't, but how likely is that?

Also, it seems strange for a company to as its users to test its product and provide relevant data:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/218-co2art-ltd/726889-dual-stage-not-dual-stage.html

More info:

http://www.swagelok.com/~/media/Dis...-To-Manage-Supply-Pressure-Effect-Badger.ashx


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