# What do you want the AGA to be?



## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Why did you join?

What is/are the reason(s) you will or will not renew your membership?

If you're not a member, what do you want that would cause you do join?

If someone posts something that you agree with, please let us know, even if it's just a quote and "me too!". The more people who give us information the better it is. Each opinion adds weight to each issue/desire.

Thank you,
Phil


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I joined for the combined benefits of the discount on your materials that you sell on the web, along with your magazine.

But I think it is important to note, you're asking two questions:

1) What do you want AGA to be?
2) Why did you join?

I just answered the second question. If you are asking the first question, I believe the AGA can best serve the community by establishing and publishing standards and best practices in the aquatic gardening community. Also to serve as a focal point for representing to vendors those changes the community needs them to make in their product lines to best serve this community.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I joined the AGA for a couple of reasons.

I joined the AGA to help support the hobby in general, to receive TAG and to purchase some of the books available through the AGA.

I will renew my membership.

What do I want the AGA to be? That is a tough one. 

I believe the AGA could be more of a "clearing house" of information. 

Take a look at the website. Under the "Featured Articles" section there are only eight articles. One of them is an obituary of sorts, one is a book review, there are contest results from 1997 and a list. Each one well written, no doubt, but lacking. The rest of the website is book/DVD/T-shirt sales, photos of people who attended the conventions and some links. The website doesn't offer very much. Far to little for the prestigious position the AGA holds. TAG is a nice little publication, but AGA needs to offer more to hobbyists. 

I'd like to see more information on the website. A lot of the info you might find in the FAQs section of this and a lot of other planted aquarium forums should be articles available from the AGA. DIY CO2 reactor plans, how to set up a pressurized CO2 system, things like that. They need to be on the AGA website. The AGA needs to be the place to turn to for basic information. 

TAG is a nice little publication. Great photos and nice articles. Understanding production costs, it would be nice to see the magazine expanded even further. I'd gladly pay a higher membership fee to receive a bigger issue of TAG, or receive it more frequently. 

I do have some more ideas for you and the AGA, Phil. Let me know if you are interested.

Mike


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

I checked into sponsoring the AGA a couple of years ago but your sponsorship rates were so high that I just couldn't justify expending that kind of operating capital on just one sponsorship. I'd love to help you guys out but it's just too costly.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

What's the AGA?

What's TAG?


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Del must be talking about advertising in TAG, and I agree, the rate is much to high for the number of people it reaches. Big companies like Seachem can afford to drop a few hundred bucks just to make them look supportive, but little guys have to spend money for advertising that will earn a return. The big magazines reach thousands of people.

I would like to see the AGA, (Aquatic Gardeners Association) reach out more to the general public and take a more active role in promoting the hobby and educating the public. Open the convention to non members or hold public seminars. Be more of a trade organization, (no I do not mean trade as in trading plants) than a buddy club.

TAG is The Aquatic Gardener, the magazine put out by the group which is the primary thing you get by becoming a member of the AGA.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Sorry for the second post, but I forgot to mention something important IMO...

The annual Aquascaping Contest does a great deal to promote the hobby, and is a great service and tradition that AGA should really continue. roud:


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I enjoy and use the AGA website, but never had the urge to join because I'm not much of an aquascaper. I just like to grow weeds and keep fish. Most of my planted tanks are "severely" overgrown. AGA seems to be angled more towards the artists of this hobby, and I'm the farmer type. I like to know the "what's", "how's", and "why's". The "where's" just don't seem to interest me.

A great resource, but it just ain't my bag, baby. Different strokes for different folks.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I was a member last year, but didn't renew this year. All there was to it to me was support of the hobby and TAG. AGA needs to step out of the past a little, become more vital. Mike made some excellent observations.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Robert H said:


> Del must be talking about advertising in TAG, and I agree, the rate is much to high for the number of people it reaches. Big companies like Seachem can afford to drop a few hundred bucks just to make them look supportive, but little guys have to spend money for advertising that will earn a return. The big magazines reach thousands of people.


Wow, I was quoted $600 or $1200 in products for their auctions. That's equates to several months of advertising with 1/4 page ads in some mag like TFH. It's just not cost effective to advertise with the AGA as it stands now.

I do support their efforts but would like to see the organization offer a lot more for the beginners to the aquatic plant hobby than just pictures of their events.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

When it comes to supporting the hobby, the small vendors do more "hands on" than the big boys any day.

All in all my membership in the AGA gave me a few copies of TAG that in reality provided nothing but a few articles of general interest and the impression that it's really just focused on bringing Amano's philosophy to the US as opposed to helping the US hobby develop it's own direction.


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## ridns (Aug 9, 2002)

Why join the AGA when "Planted Tank" answers all my questions free?


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Well, Phil, you asked an important question, and I think there's a consensus here.


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## awrieger (May 12, 2005)

Hypancistrus said:


> What's the AGA?
> 
> What's TAG?


My guess is they're discussing the Aquatic Gardeners Association


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Every opinion helps whether a member or not. We need to know what it will take for us to satisfy our current members as well as make it worth the general public's time, money, and effort to join. 

*Each opinion posted is important* even if it's just an "I agree with X". The more people we get feedback from the better idea the information is. If one person says "I think X isn't worth it, but I would join for Y" that's nice. But if 20 or 30 people say it then it will have a lot more weight behind it. 

Please, continue to share your feelings with us.

Thanks,
Phil


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Phil, I think you have a number of valid, and varied, opinions here. Hopefully you'll get more. But in providing feedback it might get a bit wacky trying to pipe in saying "I agree with X, but disagree with Y, and am sitting on the fence about Z's comment".

Have you thought about taking the feedback you get, and structuring it into a formal poll or something?


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Del, I still don't know what you are talking about! Auctions? You mean for the convention? You have always been able to donate any amount or any product you wish for the event...their event sponsorship may be more costly, I have no idea.

I will say one thing in defense of their magazine...I am sure they would love to expand it, but getting people to write something is very difficult. All the articles are donated, even Amano's as far as I know. When they got Amano to contribute the magazine went up a few notches, but if people want it to exapand further, they must be willing to contribute articles.

Its funny, one major critisism of the magazine used to be that it did not focus enough on the artistic aquascaping part of the hobby, and was too dry and scientific. Now that it incorporates some of that, some people see that as a negative. The biggest problem is just lack of material to have a more balanced format for everyone.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I would really like to hear some comments from Phil or some of the other AGA folks about some of the opinions that have been expressed here and on the other boards about this topic. Feedback on the feedback, to be sure this is the kind of information you are looking for.

I have been doing some thinking on this. Here are some of my ideas to improve the AGA. Now, I realize there are staffing and logistical shortcomings to some of my ideas here, but they are only suggestions.

Build up a base. I think it would be rather easy for the AGA to help build up a base of local plant clubs. Instead of looking for existing clubs, AGA could help develop those clubs. I am sure most existing members of AGA are already members of existing clubs, so put together an outline on how to form a club, give ideas on how to conduct a meeting, some basic rules, and possibly provide some copies of TAG to people who are interested in starting a new club. Allow those clubs to affiliate themselves with the AGA directly. For instance, I have a small group here in North Jersey. We have a very loose organization. Under some basic guidance provided by the AGA, this loose group could become a more cohesive club. Now if you’d “sanction” the club, you would have the North Jersey AGA. There could be the same thing in Chicago (ChiAGA), LA (LAAGA), Juno (JunoAGA), anywhere. Now you have developed a base of clubs, all directly affiliated with the AGA. Some of those clubs will be more active than others, no doubt, but at least you have those clubs out there. That is supporting the hobby! In turn, the clubs will support the AGA. Being affiliated with AGA, all club members would be members of AGA and pay dues. The clubs would continue to support the AGA by providing venues for future conventions. There is no convention this year because there is no one to host it. I understand not all clubs will be able to host an AGA convention, but you will have increased the possible destination for the convention by helping create local clubs. All it will cost the AGA is some time in developing the materials (and I know that is precious).

If the club idea were to work out, it could open up a world of opportunity for AGA members. There is the possibility of working out discounted group purchases from some of the AGA corporate sponsors. A web to help distribute new plants throughout the AGA. All the advantages to being part of a large community would be open to members of the AGA. That is my idea of supporting the hobby.

Mike


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## Bert H (Dec 15, 2003)

Excellent ideas, Mike!


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> Build up a base. I think it would be rather easy for the AGA to help build up a base of local plant clubs.


This is an excellent idea, but it would take a long time to accomplish. We have worked/are working on a similar program for existing clubs. As soon as ACA is over, I will be happy to provide more info on that.

And I send out LOTS of free TAGs, membership gift certificates, and brochures to any club that asks. E-mail me at membership at aquatic-gardeners.org at least two weeks before your event. 

As far as TAG goes, well, you can't please everyone. But we try really hard. We have talked seriously about expanding TAG. Heck, the last issue had four additional pages and no one even noticed. :icon_bigg But to expand further we need more authors, more members and a couple more advertisers. Four-color printing ain't cheap, folks!

I have to go back to TAG 18-3 before Karen finds out I'm playing on the forums. 

Cheryl :wink:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Robert H said:


> I will say one thing in defense of their magazine...I am sure they would love to expand it, but getting people to write something is very difficult. All the articles are donated, even Amano's as far as I know. When they got Amano to contribute the magazine went up a few notches, but if people want it to exapand further, they must be willing to contribute articles.
> 
> Its funny, one major critisism of the magazine used to be that it did not focus enough on the artistic aquascaping part of the hobby, and was too dry and scientific. Now that it incorporates some of that, some people see that as a negative. The biggest problem is just lack of material to have a more balanced format for everyone.


I couldn't have said it better myself Robert, thank you! 

Convention sponsorship values change depending on the cost of the venue.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> But we try really hard.


No doubt, Cheryl! All of your efforts show. TAG is really moving forward.



> This is an excellent idea, but it would take a long time to accomplish.


The "but" is very discouraging. It would take time to accomplish, but that shouldn't be a reason not to try it. 

Doing this is going to come at a minimal financial cost to the AGA. Those costs being some printed materials, basically. The cost would come time wise, but once that initial time investment is made, that should be it. 

Working with the existing clubs is great, but it is not going to do anything to move the AGA forward. Those clubs are already invested in the AGA, I am sure. Those members are already supporting the AGA. You need new venues to _grow _ the AGA, to _increase_ membership. TAG is only going to get better with increased membership. More people involved, more resources for TAG. Articles, photographs, tips, a wealth of information for members of the AGA by members of the AGA. 

AGA conventions need to be hosted by someone, and AGA conventions can only grow with increased membership. 


I really think following through on this train of thought can only make the AGA better.

Mike


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## awrieger (May 12, 2005)

Being a total noob to plants and not a member, may I add my two pennies worth anyway?

The first I ever heard of you is through all the numerous links people post to your competition entries.

So focus on this strength! Build the competition up! Be a UEFA, a FIFA, an Olympic organising committee, aRoyal Horticultural Society (Chelsea flower show), a Crufts dog show. Concentrate on being an organising body for a prestigious high quality competition. Everything else will stem (scuse the pun) from that focus.

And then all the little local groups will be enthused. So I think the general consensus I'm reading here that you should be more an umbrella group covering smaller local groups is the way to go.

I can even imagine an Annual Aquascaping Show like the Chelsea Flower Show , where groups from all over the world have a week or so to set up a live display/exhibit for competition. 

Set it up in the same place every year, where there are plenty of other tourists anyway like LA, SF or NY (like the flower show is in London). Don't just focus on already planted tank owners. 99% of the people coming through the gates at the flower show can only wish to have the gardens on display there. But they have gardens and can dream. Just like millions of people have aquariums too. They'll come to awe and marvel and be inspired by all the entries. And pay. And sponsors will too. The more people throught the turnstiles, the more sponsorships.

Mucho tourists. Mucho ticket sales. Mucho city sponsorship as an annual tourist event.

Think big! 

Okay, you can tell me to shut up now...


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> The cost would come time wise, but once that initial time investment is made, that should be it.


Mike, I am not arguing or dismissing you, You make excellent points. However, the biggest number one problem that AGA has right now is TIME. Current volunteers are saturated and we need additional workers if we intend to take on additional projects.

Cheryl


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I am not arguing or dismissing you


Of course, Cheryl! That is understood! roud: 

I will put my money where my mouth is. If I can help the AGA in any way, please let me know. I'd be happy to pitch in and get involved.


Mike


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Anyone else?


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## stormrider27 (Jun 30, 2005)

While I have been a hobbist for over 20 years I'm fairly new using the internet for my hobby. I have only recently started hearing about your organization. At first I was kind of excited about becoming a member. But prowling around on the internet I can find most of the information that your magazine offers. While I am still thinking of becomeing a member I think I might just buy all of your back issues of your magazine (cost about the same as a year membership). I have the feeling that I'm not going to get any better info than I do from TFH magazine that I pay $19 a year for. The discounts on your books are good but with the exception of the Tropica book I can do much better on the web. I have never seen anything about your organization in any of the LFS that I frequent. While the internet is wonderful It is not the only way nor the most effective way IMO to let people know your out there. I would love for their to be a good unfied voice out their for the aquarium hobby but right now the best I see out there are the forums with their various bias.


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

stormrider27 said:


> I think I might just buy all of your back issues of your magazine (cost about the same as a year membership). I have the feeling that I'm not going to get any better info than I do from TFH magazine that I pay $19 a year for.


Whoa. Not to make this thread degenerate here, but I think you should go ahead and buy a couple of back issues. If you think you can get the same specificity, quality of information, photos, and hobby support in TFH, then be my guest.

No offense against you personally.

Cheryl


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I highly doubt anyone would suggest TFH articles are at the same level as TAG.

Having written for both mags, I might know

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Thooshe (Dec 11, 2003)

I agree with Mike about bringing in the small clubs. Also you could add a page on your website that for contact people so others can find out about clubs in their area. I recently found out a person I work with is also in the hobby. When we got to talking, I found out she frequents different plant boards than I do. The only common site we went to was AGA's to look at the annual competition photos. With local clubs, it could not only grow membership, but it would help band us together so that vendors could help get better products to the planted community for cheaper prices.

Less cost equals more people interested in our hobby. Who knows, maybe in the future I can get Ludwiga Cuba at Walmart instead of "mystery plant bulbs". Or I could get a light fixture that I don't have to spend extra money on to replace the acintic's that I don't need.


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## stormrider27 (Jun 30, 2005)

I in no way meant to compare the quality and technical aspects of your news letter to a magazine designed for the masses. What I meant was that for level I am at in the _hobby_ and from what I have seen from your sample articles I feel as though I would be better served by TFH. (again commenting on what I know about you organization from what others have said and what I am able to gather from your web site) Its like the difference between an article on some aspect of oceanograpghy from the _National Geographic_ vs one written in the _American Society of Limnology and Oceanography (ASLO)_ journal. Which one do you percieve is going to be of more use to you in your hobby of walking the beach? I get the feeling that is a core in your organization that is truly dedicated to something. Rather than asking "us" what we want it to be maybe you should ask yourselves that. If you want to be the biggest thing out there for planted tanks and aquaculture your going to wind up with some homogenous entity like TFH in order to try and please everyone. If you look back at all of these posts there are many different ideas as posters.

BTW I will be ordering some of your back issues because I would realy like something "more" than I get from the mass magazines. I bought a bunch of their nags before having a subscription. Well its late and I'm rambling time for bed.


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Okay. You make some good points and ask some pointed questions. However, I still disagree. We ARE dedicated to the average hobbyist. Tom's article was probably among the highest-tech articles we have published in recent memory. We do one of those every few issues.

Most of the articles in _TAG_ are geared toward the medium-level hobbyist. Many are geared toward the beginner hobbyist (we try to include one per issue or at least one every-other-issue). Some articles are completely non-technical, for example collecting plants in various parts of the world.

Tell you what: anyone who is thinking about becoming a member, if you PM me your address I will send you a copy of our latest issue free for nuthin'. This offer is good until August 31, 2005.

Cheryl
who no longer reads TFH because there is nothing in it for me.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Thooshe said:


> Also you could add a page on your website that for contact people so others can find out about clubs in their area.


Great idea. roud: 

Mike


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Thooshe said:


> Also you could add a page on your website that for contact people so others can find out about clubs in their area.


Yes, but how would this be different than the links page we already have?

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/links.html

Cheryl


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## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

> Yes, but how would this be different than the links page we already have?


If it was a seperate page then all lumped into the links changes are it would be found easier. Exp if the there were links on the site that say "Find a local Club in Your Area" On the Club page not only provide a link but invite each club to write a little 1 papragraph blurb about themselves and post the club logo, if there is one.


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## rrguymon (Jul 10, 2005)

I looked at the web page today and was going to join. I was going for the summer special. Why no extra large T shirts? Thats what it will take for me to give it a try an extra large T shirt.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Sorry, we ran out of XXL. I think there's a different design in the works and we'll have XXL for that one.

Regards,
Phil


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

I really like the idea of club sponsorships. But is Tag avalible anywhere retail? I would consider that option.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thank you everyone for your input. 

By the way, Cheryl, how do I get my avatar to be what yours is?

Regards,
Phil


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Want me to see if I can hook you up with that avatar, Phil?

Mike


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Absolutely! Thanks Mike.


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

i am part of the DFWAPC and have been lucky to sit with cheryl at many of our meetings. from that vantage point, i can say that the aga is very supportive and seems to be an integral part of the dfw planted tank community. i think that the idea of "growing" clubs is a good one, but i can also appreciate the logistical issues. which is why the internet is such a great resource! now, i am not a computer person at all, but would it be possible to host a virtual meeting? i am part of a few on-line groups that have far-flung members and the chat sessions help to connect everyone and make people who don't have a local community feel involved. 
as far as the website is concerned, would it be possible to have a section (like here and at APC) for localities? ie under "Utah", all the members from Utah could have their public information published. just a suggestion...


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Kris said:


> as far as the website is concerned, would it be possible to have a section (like here and at APC) for localities? ie under "Utah", all the members from Utah could have their public information published. just a suggestion...


 :icon_conf 

That is what the "Local" section of the board was meant to be. It was supposed to be a place where you could post info about a plant club or aquarium society, as well as let people know about different shops in your area and what they may be selling. Unfortunately it really hasn't been utilized. it has become a "Where can I find this" or "Where can I buy that" thing.

The section is there. Use it! roud: 

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I thought I could add the avatar for you Phill, but it seems I can't. If you PM me an email address, I'll send you the photo. All you will need to do is upload it.

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Upon further review....

How's that, Phil?

Mike


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Phil Edwards said:


> Thank you everyone for your input.
> 
> By the way, Cheryl, how do I get my avatar to be what yours is?
> 
> ...


Sorry for the late response, Phil. I have been neck-deep in TAG 18-3 and have given my silly self a head cold by choking on dirty aquarium water, trying to start a siphon on a hose that had week-old water in it. Yum. 

I will e-mail you the file so you can upload it.

Cheryl


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Excellent! Thanks Mike.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

CherylRogers said:


> I ...have given my silly self a head cold by choking on dirty aquarium water, trying to start a siphon on a hose that had week-old water in it. Yum.
> 
> Cheryl


Eww.
I would just submerge a couple of extra feet of hose in the aquarium. Usually the siphon will start when you pull the extra back out (thumb on the end). Or if it's a python, fill the fat end and lift it until the water goes over the aquarium edge and pop the end back under before it sucks air.

Anything other than putting my mouth on aquarium equipment. :eek5:


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

What is the purpose of the Aquatic Gardening Association supposed to be? Or more importantly, what functions is it supposed to supply to its members? I'm a college student living in a dorm room with bearly a square foot of space on my desk for a tank-- and yet I'm really devoted to this hobby. Hell, if it weren't for this hobby, I'd be spending another semester at college to get art credit (I made over 10 different small display tank, and did slides, to make a concentration that was worthy of passing the AP Art test-- the toughest of ALL the Advanced placement tests-- yeah, calc is way easier to pass). 

What's the AGA to me? Well, it's a place I go to look at pictures of tanks for inspiration, and to read useful commentary. Looking at past contests has given me inspiration and knowledge I needed. At the same time though, I didn't need to be a member to get that, and I can't really think of anything I'd want to get that I'd need to become a member for. I've been able to find out about any topic I needed to know about on my own. I've never read TAG but I can't think of anything I'd want to know that I couldn't find on my own. For instance, the Singaporean Professor's article on mosses. Fascinating. I'll find out about it on my own eventually-- but ultimately the only difference between mosses is how they look in the display, neh?

BTW-- The contest keeps getting better each year. You see a real progression in the level of competition. I'll say this though-- there are some judge reviews that make me go-- "what?" there are some tanks that seriously go unacknowledged for their genius and excellence in execution, and others that get way more praise than they deserve. I suppose that's to be expected-- we're human after all, and it's art-- totally subjective. At the same time though, if we truly want our art to be art, we have to make guidelines that foster innovation and risk-taking. The AGA contest has influence on how aquascapers carry a certain understanding and standard in the art form. Thus, I think it is the responsibility of the AGA contest, if its goal really is to support the art, to influence the creation of standards that foster artistic values as well as good design. As the hobby is right now, I was able to draw info about standard practices and themes from it, but in order to really learn an artist mind set and an artist thinking and values, I had to turn to my teachers and peers at high school.

I also think, that SOMEONE, AGA or not, has to get our art better known than it is. I have yet to EVER run into someone outside of a pet store or club, who actually knows what aquascaping or aquatic gardening is. Every single person that has ever walked into my room at home, or my dorm room there, has asked me, "what's that?" and "what are the names of your fish?" They would come to the conclusion that I must be a biology student before they thought I was an art student. If someone comes into my room, they don't think, "man this guy is an artist!" but they think exactly that if I do a quickie five-second sketch for them. Now that is depressing.

I think it would be awesome if I could walk up to a Japanese tourist, ask them about Takashi Amano, and have them actually know who he is and what he does. I think it would be awesome if I could go up to a random someone in Housten, ask them if they'd seen the work of the Senske brothers, and have them say "yes." You know there are students at my college from singapore, and I've talked to them, and not a single one of them has the slightest clue about how far their country has gone in cultivating aquatic plants and animals. It would be great if we could get our art form known. When it's known, when people want aquascapes the way they want sculpture or paintings, then we'll see some REAL progress in the hobby.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

CherylRogers said:


> Sorry for the late response, Phil. I have been neck-deep in TAG 18-3 and have given my silly self a head cold by choking on dirty aquarium water, trying to start a siphon on a hose that had week-old water in it. Yum.
> Cheryl


You know, I can actually picture that happening to you. :wink:


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

That is really gross.


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## ramsvella (May 7, 2005)

Not long ago AGA designed its own forum. I am just a newbie and posted my aquascapes for review, comments, suggestions and encoragement. Unfortunately not a single feedback  I had to repost the thread in another forum to get some ideas. BTW, I am a member of the AGA

regards,

Ramon


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

I have gone to the AGA website on a few occassions to check out the aquascaping pix. But that really is it.....

From what I have seen, (and, no, I haven't really looked into it): The products that AGA sells are WAY over-priced--They maybe top-quality and worth every penny, but the feeling I get is: Paying for "The Name". Again.

I am not a member, and at this time I don't have any intention of becoming a member. Why? Well, because I really don't have any idea what AGA has to offer me. I can't tell.....

I'm not Amano or some other "High-End" Aquascaper. I'm just some guy trying to figure out how to grow plants under water without all the headaches....That's all. And I am doing pretty good at it--without the AGA, and haven't found myself constantly going to, or being referred to the AGA....

When I think AGA--I think: AquaScaping Contest.

So, what does the AGA have to offer me--The little Guy? I don't know--and that's the problem.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Well....I don't think anyone around here is as critical of the AGA as I am, but I do think we need to be a bit more understanding on some things. 

I don't agree with how things are done at times, but I think we need to be fair on a couple of the issues mentioned.


> The products that AGA sells are WAY over-priced. They maybe top-quality and worth every penny, but the feeling I get is: Paying for "The Name". Again.


AGA isn't Amazon.com. I am sure they have a few of the books and DVDs they sell on hand, but they don't have or handle the volume of books necessary to offer those books and DVDs at a more reasonable, retail price. Would I like to see lower prices? Absolutely! However AGA isn't set up to be a book/DVD merchant.



> Not long ago AGA designed its own forum. I am just a newbie and posted my aquascapes for review, comments, suggestions and encoragement. Unfortunately not a single feedback I had to repost the thread in another forum to get some ideas. BTW, I am a member of the AGA


That stinks, Ramon! That can happen on a forum sometimes. It even happens here on PT from time to time, so I imagine it could easily happen on a forum as new and with as few members as the new AGA forum has. I think the forum will pick up a bit with time.

Post those photos here so we can all have a look at them! :icon_wink 

Mike


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, I edited out the Period and replaced it with Dashes--so the thought will be more continuous and less of a Isolated statement.

However, here is the full quote:



> From what I have seen, (and, no, I haven't really looked into it): The products that AGA sells are WAY over-priced--They maybe top-quality and worth every penny, but the feeling I get is: Paying for "The Name". Again.


I believe that:



> From what I have seen, (and, no, I haven't really looked into it):


and



> They maybe top-quality and worth every penny,


and



> the feeling I get is:


Pretty much sets the stage that this is my opinion and only my opinion, and one that is admittedly based upon a -possible-lack of research.

To me, the important part of the post is still:



> So, what does the AGA have to offer me--The little Guy? I don't know--and that's the problem.


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

TAG. There are plenty of great articles in TAG that have nothing to do with Amano or aquascaping.

Cheryl


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## Shay (Apr 28, 2004)

Maybe I'm mistaken here but is Naja confusing AGA with AGD and ADA?


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

Shay said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken here but is Naja confusing AGA with AGD and ADA?


Don't forget TAG ("The Aquatic Gardener") :hihi:. This was a problem I had when I started in the hobby....keeping all those strait.

AGA Aquatic Gardeners Association ----> Publishes a quarterly plant journal called TAG The Aquatic Gardener.

I joined the AGA a couple months ago. IMO, the 4 quarterly journals are valuable enough to make the membership worth the fee. I'm still warming up to the community and website and will likely "jump in" soon. 

It was unfortuantate that Ramon didn't receive any commentary. I know that the mods have lives outside the AGA, but I've seen many threads on that forum snowball into long conversations (especially when Tom Barr grabs hold of them ). It was unfortunate that someone couldn't have offered _some_ opinion. I guess in that situation, I'd simply give my thread a bump, and politely ask for a few quick words of input. Mike's right, sometimes threads get missed - especially on The Planted Tank website, where your new thread can get pushed off the front page within hours.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, it looks like maybe I do have them confused--at least somewhat.....

I just went to the AGA site and Yes, I've have been there before to check out the pix. I was just at their forums and I will go back a bit later and check things out more.

Can someone provide me with links for the ADA and AGD? I don't know, or recall, what they stand for--so I am coming up blank. I don't think that the American Dental Association is what I'm looking for....


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

AGA is the Aquatic Gardeners Association www.aquatic-gardeners.org.
We have a contest.

ADG is Aquarium Design Group, the Senske's business at www.aquariumdesigngroup.com. They sell ADA products in the US.

ADA is Aqua Design Amano, Takashi Amano's business at www.adana.co.jp but that only works if you read Japanese. :icon_lol: They have a contest, too.

Cheryl


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Thank You.

It looks like I have been confusing the products (and their pricing) of ADA stuff with AGA. My Apologies.....

I can edit or delete the post above if You like, or it can all be left here for the benefit of other confused folks like me....:hihi: 

Again, My Apologies...and I will look further into AGA.....


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## sparrow (Feb 27, 2006)

Naja002 said:


> Thank You.
> 
> It looks like I have been confusing the products (and their pricing) of ADA stuff with AGA. My Apologies.....
> 
> ...



I think it should be left in place.... It illustrates very nicely the point that there are so many fragmented clubs and organizations that even people who are active in the hobby can get them confused. That alone is a huge put-off to prospective new members who don't even know what the different organizations are let alone what they offer the hobbyist or why they should even care to find out. Forums, like this very one, seem to offer more to the prospective hobbyist than the established groups do.

This is just my .02, but I think an organization like the AGA should spend their resources developing a comprehensive resource (articles, how-to information, vendor comparisons that aren't advertisements, comprehensive plant-databases, featured-plant-series info, cutting edge information dissemination, maybe even import rare plants en masse and redistribute to interested members) for the hobbyists. If they build a resource base with an obvious value then people will see that obvious value and flock to the information and tell others where to as well. 

Yes, I understand that TAG is an effort in that direction, but IMO it is a misguided effort. A printed magazine is so very last century. If the same resources and effort went into an online archive, it would wind up reaching a far larger audience in perpetuity. 

If the AGA would like to become the "Central Authority" figure for the hobby, that's fine. Do so. But to do so, they will have to provide the requisite source of information to fill that role (information sharing, club interaction-maybe book guest speakers for clubs, "hard fact how-to" information, etc). It just seems to me that right now there is no one place where you can go to learn everything you need to about the hobby. Sure, it is mostly all available online, but is scattered across different forums, individual hobbyist sites, etc. Bring it all together in one place and you've created a resource that truly has value and merit.

How to go about setting all this up? Well, what comes to mind for starters:
Setup a Wiki - That's a great way to do peer-review information sharing with the ability to publish "official entries". I've thought of suggesting one be started on this domain before. Next, put out a call for members to contribute information to it. Then, post to all the major forums asking for the most experienced members to contribute as well. Next, get hold of the other orgs, like the Amano group and even regional clubs and try to set up an "information exchange" where both groups can get together and share any information. Send out letters of invitation to the notable minds of the hobby, tell them of your plans to develop a resource for the advancement of the hobby as a whole. Tell them that you would be honored if they would prepare any article(s) or posts to share information that you could publish. On the club level, send letters asking what kinds of information the clubs could provide and what they need. Ask if they might be willing to videotape any guest speakers or presentations to share with you. The best ones could be digitized or trascribed and republished in the wiki. Basically, do whatever you can to build the archive upon which the advancement of the hobby can be based.

The "lead spot" in the hobby is waiting to be taken. An organization need only step up to the plate and be creative in bringing it all together. 

If you build it, they will come.

Again, my .02.


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## ramsvella (May 7, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> That stinks, Ramon! That can happen on a forum sometimes. It even happens here on PT from time to time, so I imagine it could easily happen on a forum as new and with as few members as the new AGA forum has. I think the forum will pick up a bit with time.
> 
> Post those photos here so we can all have a look at them! :icon_wink
> 
> Mike


Well I think that at least the moderator should give his'her view. I do so on a local based forum!

I will post them


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

I joined to get information and get ideas on issues. I also like the aquascaping contest, I get good design ideas from it. I know it is free to look at, much like this forum is free to participate in, but as you can see I am a member in here as I am there, even though I am a fresh newby. I just feel that if I am getting info from somewhere and I am utilizing it, that means someone out there is working to provide something....a.service...an idea...their time....and that someone should be compensated for their work . I am one of those people that think nothing comes for free, nor should it. It is for those reasons I have contributed to these resources.


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

fresh_newby said:


> I just feel that if I am getting info from somewhere and I am utilizing it, that means someone out there is working to provide something....a.service...an idea...their time....and that someone should be compensated for their work.


I agree! I know not everyone has the means to donate to every info source they use, but those who do[have the means], should (especially to the sites you KNOW you NEED  )......, if not, those sources could dry up, and all we'll have left is "sponsored information". If you want a good example of this, google "weightloss". 

Folks like Chuck Gadd, Rex Grigg, and many others are the true Altruists of the Internet. They don't even have annoying ads or popups! You can differ in opinion from them all you want. But, you can't fault their intentions; they are trying to help - plain and simple.

But, "small-time" websites don't have the means to host large events, massive forums, and contests. AGA and TPT (the planted tank) do because they receive some income through subscriptions and donations. I enjoy these events and forums, so I donate. The return on that money "invested" is ridiculous .


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## ramsvella (May 7, 2005)

Excellent philosophy fresh_newby! I also registered with AGA for support and appreciation and probably will do it for a life-time. In fact the amount of knowledge that I aquired was via members of AGA especially in their responses in the Aquatic Plant Digest.
Also TAG has become a collectable item for any plant enthusiast. I appreciate a lot having a printed version of the ideas discussed by the members. Keep it up AGA!

My previous post about the new AGA forum was an instant reaction. Having such a limited number of members urged me to ask for feedback there. Also the AGA experts are my idols in what regards plants, so where else to ask in the first place? I am not a master in aquascaping but I think that till now have achieved good results in my planted aquaria as whar regards plant health and propogation. Obviously many folks do not concentrate on aquascaping that much but everyone tries to have a good looking display tank even if it may considered by the individual an experiment tank 

Hope that Aquatic Gardners Association will give more importance to new scapers and at the same time share information on the other dimensions of the planted tank world.

regards,

Ramon


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Mike came away with some great points!

Let me give an example... (Place AGA in place of BASS)

BASS(Bass Anglers Sportsman Society) is an organization in which solitary members, or clubs sign up for a cost, an receive membership, and a mag subscription per year. Clubs pay a lil extra for the bennies they get verses the solitary members. A solitary member will pay the price for whatever the yearly subscription dues are. Clubs will pay the same price per member, but will be sanctioned by BASS to enter club sanctioned events for free.

A club will elect a president, VP, Sec, Treasurer etc... BASS will send the by-laws for the club to uphold. Everything the club does is under the BASS guidelines, as set forth by BASS. One of the BASS guidelines is that all club members must be a part of BASS, an subscribe as such. Winning the club championship enables him to a free trip to the BASS Classic. Which in turns puts him up amounts the best of the rest of the clubs in the BASS association.

IOW's AGA, starts collecting dues from clubs that will be formed all over the country, and has competitions among themselves,(an other functions), in house competitions, swap meets, just over all camaraderie. Ultimately it is the clubs who want to make money for themselves however they feel fit. The clubs goal would be to have one or two members of the club move to the AGAR finals in which one entry from each club has stood out over the rest. AGA awards the best individual, an the club in which he belongs. 

Once all the clubs have provided an entry, the winner is awarded, as well as the club in which the winner is a member of. The club gets free dues for the next year, with a couple of extra perks, an the club winner gets a monetary award equivalent to 10% of all the club dues that were sent in for the year.

It would be a really easy process for AGA to establish this sort of idea, an be the threshold of the future of aquatic gardening!

If you would like to discuss this further, please feel free to PM me with a phone number, an I will be glad to return your call.

I have started 2 BASS affiliations, an feel that AGA could really benefit from this same direction.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Cool ideas Mark. And I totally agree with Ted and Fresh Newbie. The AGA and TAG magazine are a great resource. I always look forward to reading each quarterly. After all, there really are not very many quality resources for us with the planted tank hobby. 

So we should support and at least join those which seem appropriate, if we can afford them. And if you have a high light tank, you can afford 20 or 30 buckos. Or you probably shouldn't have one or more high light CO2 injected tank. To any who haven't joined the AGA, just do it. You'll be glad you did. Just my .02 cents. bob


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Betowess said:


> Cool ideas Mark. And I totally agree with Ted and Fresh Newbie. The AGA and TAG magazine are a great resource. I always look forward to reading each quarterly. After all, there really are not very many quality resources for us with the planted tank hobby.
> 
> So we should support and at least join those which seem appropriate, if we can afford them. And if you have a high light tank, you can afford 20 or 30 buckos. Or you probably shouldn't have one or more high light CO2 injected tank. To any who haven't joined the AGA, just do it. You'll be glad you did. Just my .02 cents. bob



Hey Bob, I want my penny change! lol kidding


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## shieber (Jun 4, 2004)

All those things require work and that requires someone to perform the work. It's not a question of what but who. Who is volunteering to do the work? 





sparrow said:


> I think it should be left in place.... It illustrates very nicely the point that there are so many fragmented clubs and organizations that even people who are active in the hobby can get them confused. That alone is a huge put-off to prospective new members who don't even know what the different organizations are let alone what they offer the hobbyist or why they should even care to find out. Forums, like this very one, seem to offer more to the prospective hobbyist than the established groups do.
> 
> This is just my .02, but I think an organization like the AGA should spend their resources developing a comprehensive resource (articles, how-to information, vendor comparisons that aren't advertisements, comprehensive plant-databases, featured-plant-series info, cutting edge information dissemination, maybe even import rare plants en masse and redistribute to interested members) for the hobbyists. If they build a resource base with an obvious value then people will see that obvious value and flock to the information and tell others where to as well.
> 
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It does get down to who wants to do the work for such things.
I could have produced a PAM or TAG for my site, but I opted due to less work to have Greg Watson do the web stuff while I did the content.
Less work for me. I like things that result in doing what I like and with less work.

I also have farmed out a few things over the years for TAG, helped the AGA here and there.

But the idea is that one larger group to help pull the various factions together is a very good one and one all should support.

I do not think any one really denies the usefulness of that.
So how to bets go about impementing it?

1. Join
2. If you feel passionately about this, run for office
3. Tell others to join
4. See what others have to say about better ways to achieve the goals


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I think the real question is how can the AGA reach out more to the public to help broaden the base. How can the AGA better educate the public to increase interest in the hobby? Is that a goal of the AGA, or is it simply a club to benefit it's members? Ever thought of opening up the convention to the general public?

Is it just me, or does any one else on the west coast feel a bit disappointed by the announced itinery of the AGA convention 2006? I know there is a lot of california people and club members in this forum, and I do not mean to insult anyone or belittle your hard work, but I have been waiting for six years for the convention to come to the west coast and while I realize you can not have Amano every year, I just expected more. I don't need a tour of the bay area, I lived there for 20 years. I am sure the scheduled speakers will bring something nice to the table, but there is no shinning star there that really excites me. I have heard nothing about the workshops and seminars that have been done in the past. Have people run out of steam for this convention?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Personally I really like the line up this year the AGA has.

I've met Amano 2x and would rather see some new faces, so would the AGA as well as many of the folks that come to each year's event I'd think.

Ricky is now up and we have some Aquatic botantist researchers I really have respect for coming as well. 

And, I'm *involved * in the AGA/SFBAAPS.........as well as this event.

AGA folks are volunteers, as are local club members. Nothing is stopping anyone from getting involved, helping and suggesting new folks they'd like to see.

Complaining is not helping, nor is it involvement nor is it offering suggestions to help nor suggestions for speakers they'd like to see. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## chrisl (May 6, 2004)

Phil And Cheryl,

I've been a member for 2yrs now I think, and I think both the AGA and esp. the TAG are great resources. Like others have said, the contests alone are great for inspiration or ideas. Being a member to me isn't that expensive, and it supports the hobby and the magazine TAG. This is my reason for being a member.

TAG articles, esp. of Amano's 2-3 tanks each issue is fantastic. Not only for the design, but the 'how I did it' mentality of the reports: hardscape shown, plants id'd and tank maintenance issues all make it worthwhile. In fact, in setting up my new tank, I reread all the past issues, and I learned even more. So to me, they've been an exc. resource, only enhanced by the dvd's of the past shows. A ton of information can be learned in the dvd AGA shows in the 'expert seminars' and talks alone.

Surprised to see this many people who Aren't members honestly. If you're interested enough to post in forums like PT, quite an esoteric hobby compared to say, bicycling, than why not support the advancement of our hobby while at the same time, getting access to TAG and the other invaluable resources imo.

Chris


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## tundragirl (Feb 15, 2006)

bastalker said:


> Mike came away with some great points!
> 
> Let me give an example... (Place AGA in place of BASS)
> 
> ...


Great ideas I really like the concept. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Definately something to look into.


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

It seemed like every issue of TAG I received said that my subscription was about to expire and that it was my last issue. If I received the message only on my final issue I might have renewed my subscription.


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## CherylRogers (Jul 7, 2005)

Well, the envelope should always say "expires in 2 issues" or something. People asked for that feature some years ago. It should only say "renew now!" on your next-to-last and last issue. Which, if you only sign up for one year at a time would be half the issues. 

If it really did say "Last issue! Renew Now!" on ALL of your issues, it would be a printer error. Please e-mail me your name and address and I will take a look.

Cheryl Rogers


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## Solid (Jul 19, 2009)

Well I guess the Luis vittoin guys gave this thread a bump.


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## fastfreddie (Sep 10, 2008)

I just bought 12 old issues of the magazine (2005-2008 I think) from a TPT member for $20 shipped, and I would make that purchase again in a second. It was fantastic reading! 

I need to join AGA.


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