# My Substrate Won't Grow My Plants Anymore



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

If your dosing ei your plants should grow whether you put ferts in the substrate or not. I never use root tabs and I've yet to see a plant that didn't grow from just water column ferts. Are the stem bottoms getting enough light? Are they rotting away.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

They could be rotting away. I never thought about that. I am a firm believer though that water column nutrients aren't the way to go. I would take a better substrate any day. Plants absorb 4-400% times more nutrients from the roots. Studies have shown that substrate wins every day. I will try and use the root tabs.

What do I do to ensure the bottoms get enough light as well? Cut back? Trim? Thanks.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

cooledwhip said:


> ...Studies have shown that substrate wins every day. I will try and use the root tabs.


Been doing this a long time and I've never put anything in my substrate. Have used plain sand, eco complete and other inert and I just dosed water column. Everything grew, carpets, crypts, swords, stems. You have plants like Riccia, Anubias, Buce, Ferns not planted in substrate. 

A root tab is not the same thing as Aquasoil BTW, root tabs won't get to every plant and they don't have the macro content that a substrate like Aquasoil has.



cooledwhip said:


> What do I do to ensure the bottoms get enough light as well? Cut back? Trim? Thanks.


Trim and spread the stems out more and/or more light.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

cooledwhip said:


> They could be rotting away. I never thought about that. I am a firm believer though that water column nutrients aren't the way to go. I would take a better substrate any day. Plants absorb 4-400% times more nutrients from the roots. Studies have shown that substrate wins every day. I will try and use the root tabs.
> 
> What do I do to ensure the bottoms get enough light as well? Cut back? Trim? Thanks.


I'm not sure where these studies come from but they seem way off. Are you sure this is for aquatic plants?

Chances are your plants have survived so far with water column fertilizer (which should be present in the substrate). Flourite provides no nourishment for plants. Lots of minerals, but not in a form that's available for plant uptake. Kind of like the dishes you eat off of. Lot's of minerals, but you only get what's put on the plate.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

It was a study done by seachem.

So should I just trim back? I will upload a picture later. It's almost as if directly where the light stops shining is where the plants are doing bad. Thanks

I just took some pictures and I will upload them now. The forest is huge. I just don't understand how on other people's aquascapes they have super huge and thick forests, but I am trying to emulate that and my plants just die.


I can't imagine how painful this is going to be. I will have to uproot everything. Oh boy.

I think what I will do is just toss the unhealthy plants and replant all new plants. Should I do that? What approach should I take??

Bump: https://postimg.org/gallery/pywocn5w/66d9ac39/

Here is the link of my pictures.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

cooledwhip said:


> ..I have just recently started using CO2 and excel again. I do E.I. ferts, Nutitrace CSM+B, Potassium, Monopotassium Phosphate.


What does that mean you started using co2 again? Are you dosing Nitrogen?


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Like about a week ago I started using co2. I don't even think it's working. It's like a single cup of co2. This is what I use

[Ebay Link Removed] Mini Pressurized 20g CO2 Kit 0 7 Ounces | eBay[/url]

No I don't dose nitrogen.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Your issues probably have more to do with the nutrients provided than your substrate. What's the point of dosing all those other things and leaving out N? And your not sure your co2 is working? I would correct those two things and see if it makes a difference.


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## nukum (Jul 26, 2016)

Whenever I want to grow more root I add more phosphates.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

How would I go about adding more phosphates and more nitrogen? I came here for HELP

H
E
L
P

How would I dose nitrogen or phosphates?

I linked you my "Co2 system" It's not the best, and I only send 1 pump of co2 as I am at school all day and I can't refill the in tank canister every hour when it runs out.

I will be adding some root tabs and seeing how that goes. I hope there is a way to add more N or something.


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## kirkallan90 (Jan 26, 2016)

These have worked great for me in tanks with PFS and tanks with Flourite.
NEW MTS/EI/CLAY Capsules - NilocG Aquatics


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I would just buy his Dry Fert package. 

EI based NPK + CSM+B - NilocG Aquatics

If you do that you don't need the root tabs and every plant will get ferts. Best thing you could do is fert and change water on a regular basis.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

You kinda just linked me what I already have...

I use Potassium Nitrate
Monopotassium phosphate

Nutritrace CSM+B

That's all I dose. What am I missing?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

cooledwhip said:


> You kinda just linked me what I already have...
> 
> I use Potassium Nitrate
> Monopotassium phosphate
> ...


Actually this is what you said your dosing:



cooledwhip said:


> ...I do E.I. ferts, Nutitrace CSM+B, Potassium, Monopotassium Phosphate.


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

cooledwhip said:


> It's almost as if directly where the light stops shining is where the plants are doing bad.
> 
> Bump: https://postimg.org/gallery/pywocn5w/66d9ac39/
> 
> Here is the link of my pictures.


Pretty sure you just answered your own question. 

However...rotalla is pretty hardy if its growing well. From your picture, it looks to me like your stems in front are too tall and shading the stems in the back. Put the taller stems in the back with shorter stems in the front so all of the tops receive light. When established well, rotalla can be pruned down to 2-4 nodes above the substrate. Then keep just keep pruning and trimming to your liking. It bounces back well and relatively quickly.

Your dosing seems fine. I would still dose N unless you know your tank naturally produces enough ppm. Flourite provides very very little nutrients but from what I understand it holds nutrients well. Meaning, the more ferts you dose in the water column, the more ferts the substrate will retain. Many people run successful tanks using Flourite in conjunction with E.I. dosing. If you think the substrate is really the problem, then buy some sort of aquasoil, switch it out, and not worry about it. 

Definitely make sure your co2 is working properly, no matter what setup you are using. Fluctuations in co2 injection is way worse than not injecting in the first place. So, get the co2 in check. Plus, more of one thing means more of everything else ( more co2 means more light and more nutrients).

Let things begin to stabilize and stay stabalized for a while and allow the plants to acclimate to the tank chemistry before changing things up. They will never be able to catch up and will always look deficient...because they are and until things stabalize, you won't really be able to pinpoint a problem. 

Pay attention to new growth and how it grows. New growth tells you what your current water chemistry consists of. I'm not very fluent in nutrient deficiencies so I can't really tell you what to look for but if you say you know what you are doing, I'll trust that you know more in that subject that I do.

Also, water changes are a tanks best friend.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> You kinda just linked me what I already have...
> 
> I use Potassium Nitrate
> Monopotassium phosphate
> ...





nukum said:


> Whenever I want to grow more root I add more phosphates.


Perhaps you should increase your dosing of Monopotassium phophate to increase your phosphates. Perhaps .5 tsp daily for a week would help. Also perhaps you need to increase dosing of KNO3 (potassium nitrate). For stem plants are nitrate hogs. Just increase it slowly so as not to harm the fauna. Rex Griggs said,"Target 5-10ppm control phosphorus-dependant algaes. But if your level is zero, and you add enough in one dose to raise it to 10ppm, you will kill fish. Mix 30 ml (3 tsp or 1 Tbs) into 1 cup of water. 1ml = 1.08 ppm of NO3 in 10g of water."

Also to maintain a balance I find dosing Sodium bicarb (baking soda) beneficial. I dose .5 tsp weekly.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

RyRob said:


> Pretty sure you just answered your own question.
> 
> However...rotalla is pretty hardy if its growing well. From your picture, it looks to me like your stems in front are too tall and shading the stems in the back. Put the taller stems in the back with shorter stems in the front so all of the tops receive light. When established well, rotalla can be pruned down to 2-4 nodes above the substrate. Then keep just keep pruning and trimming to your liking. It bounces back well and relatively quickly.
> 
> ...


 
Is good info with one exception..
More CO2 does NOT mean more light is needed, only that one can get away with more light assuming nutrient's are available.It is the light energy that drives demand for more CO2 and nutrient's not CO2 driving the demand.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

roadmaster said:


> More CO2 does NOT mean more light is needed, only that one can get away with more light assuming nutrient's are available


Agree. In fact a saw a 20g long that had low light and Co2 injected which grew plants which required medium light. 

Just if you are injecting Co2 you have to watch that it does not cause your ph to crash.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

So how do I add nitrogen?

I am starting to see a bit of BBA on my driftwood. Should I just move to excel only and stop the actual co2?

The fert tabs came in today. I will put them in next water change.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> So how do I add nitrogen?
> 
> I am starting to see a bit of BBA on my driftwood. Should I just move to excel only and stop the actual co2?


Here you can read more on ferts Seachem Nitrogen, or can be added using a dry powder form, via adding the compound Potassium Nitrate (KNO3). Spectricide Stump remover is 100% KNO3.

Target 5-10ppm control phosphorus-dependant algaes. Rex Griggs said, "But if your level is zero, and you add enough in one dose to raise it to 10ppm, you will kill fish. Mix 30 ml (3 tsp or 1 Tbs) into 1 cup of water. 1ml = 1.08 ppm of NO3 in 10g of water."

Keep dosing Excel and Co2. BBA comes from and imbalances, poor circulation and over feeding fish. Mine I found in a low tech tank happened when my nitrates were low.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

I already have KNO3. Isn't that different from Nitrogen?

So should I buy nitrogen now?

I really don't understand that quote you put in from Rex Griggs.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

KNO3 is the nitrogen you need. So it sounds like you have all the ferts. The key is consistency with both water changes and co2. If your seeing BBA try increasing water changes to remove more organics and/or adding more plants. More than likely this is the reason you have BBA. If you don't fert and provide co2 on a consistent basis then everything else is probably a waste.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> I already have KNO3. Isn't that different from Nitrogen?
> 
> So should I buy nitrogen now?
> 
> I really don't understand that quote you put in from Rex Griggs.


No, you don't need to buy nitrogen. Nitrogen is also from fish waste.

I don't quite understand what Rex Griggs said either. He is dead so I can not ask him about it. The point is that you gradually increase your nitrates.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Should I try doing more of the ferts? I have lots of plants like I said. It's a heavily planted tank.

I also have a pothos plant in there to help with algae, excess nutrients, etc.

Also I went on a website and it suggested raising my GH or something? Would that help with the plants??


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Am I planting wrong?

Is there a certain distance apart that I should plant the stem plants like the rotala??


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> Should I try doing more of the ferts?
> Also I went on a website and it suggested raising my GH or something? Would that help with the plants??


Can you check your phosphates and nitrates or have someone check them?

Yeh I read that about Gh needing to be a certain level. Increase the gh too fast and you will kill your fish. Have to be careful changing parameters. Gh Booster would help balance it.


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