# Holes in my Alternanthera reineckii leaves



## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I have been steadily getting holes in the leaves of my Alternanthera reineckii. I have increased my potassium dosage from just one teaspoon at water change to one teaspoon at water change and another teaspoon midweek. I am still getting holes.

Do I need to dose more potassium, or are the plants just starting to get old? I remember reading that at time Alternanthera reineckii just kind of quits growing. Could this be the case?

Mike


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I don't know, but the same thing is happening to mine. So far K+ is not helping, my next try will be to add some Epsom salts. My water is very soft.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Have you checked your fert levels? What form of K are you dosing?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Fertilizer levels seem OK. I keep nitrates around 5ppm. I have found it really makes my red plants "pop". Phosphates are between .5 and 1ppm. I have to add almost daily.

I add potassium via K2SO4.


Mike


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

That seems like an awful lot of K to me. Are you dosing magnesium and calcium too? How about the micros, Fe and such? That really seems like a lot of K to me, did I say that yet?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I am not dosing calcium or magnesium specifically.

I dose micros via Seachems Flourish. About 8ml per week. I dose Flourish Iron twice weekly. About 6ml per dose, once at water change and once midweek.

I started dosing the extra K about a week and a half ago to try and combat the holes. Otherwise I was dosing 1 teaspoon at water change.

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

SCMurphy,

I have just read the potassium thread over at AB, and spoke with Jay Luto about K and Ca in relation to E. stellata at an LFS on Sunday. I am beginning to see why you are bringing up my K levels. 

I was dosing 1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4 at water change, and was finishing off a big bottle of Seachem Nitrogen. I slowly began to increase my K dosage to 1/2 teaspoon and then one teaspoon, and switched from the Seachem nitrogen product to dosing KNO3 in solution. I believe I increased my K through the increased dosage of K2SO4 _and_ through the switch to dosing KNO3 in solution. Now that I think about it, the holes started to appear in the last month or so, which would correlate with the increased K dosage. 

However, would too much K cause this problem???

Mike


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## 2la (Aug 18, 2002)

I suppose it's possible if excessive K competes with other nutrients such as iron or manganese. Just curious, but are these holes occurring on old growth or new growth? Are they pinpoint or elongated? Do you know how much K in ppm you're adding on a weekly basis?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Excess K blocks the uptake of Calcium and Magnesium by plants. The deficiency of either (if I remember) is small crinkly runty leaves. I am starting to think that the combination of the two being blocked results in the holes in the leaves you are describing. GulfCoastAquarian (Sam) was dosing huge quantities of K in his tank and seeing the same symptoms, I actually had to reread your post to see if it was a different post or not. Sechem Flourish has K in it too, doesn't it? I think that the B. method has people dosing around 3 to 4 times too much K. I'm still waiting for Sam to say whether his tank has turned around or not. I do know that Nesea sp. shows early signs of excess K availability and that includes holes in the leaves.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

It's going to be hard to say whether or not the cessation of K helped in my tank. The CO2 ran out and now that it is back online, the plants are getting holes in their leaves worse than ever. This is confusing! I feel your pain, Mike!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

There is a definite correlation between K dosage and the holes in the leaves. As I increased the K dosage, the holes appeared. Simple as that. The K2SO4 dose increase, the introduction of N through KNO3 and the Flourish, have all increased my K levels. 

I think I am going to do the next three water changes, and not dose K. I will dose the Flourish and the KNO3. On the fourth water change, I will go back to the 1/4 teaspoon of K2SO4, as I had been doing. I will talk to Jay, and possibly dose a little Ca and see what happens.

This is not devastating, just annoying. Alternanthera reineckii is not a rare or expensive plant. If I have to replace it, I can do it without a problem. I would just like to find out what is causing the problem so I can help other people with the K / Ca answer.

Mike


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## Ptahkeem (May 5, 2003)

Hey Momotaro 
just out of curiosity but how would you go about dosing Ca? Im not sure but I have a similar problem. My plants arent showing signs of holes in their leaves but new leaf growth is crinkled and my stargrass had black creases in it which suggest a potassium deficiency. The thing is though that I dose 10ppm of K three times a week. Im thinking that maybe my Ca levels are not at the 4:1 ratio that they should be which is why Im getting these deficiencies.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Ptahkeem

Jay showed me a product in the LFS. I am not sure of the name.

I am going to sit tight on the Ca addition right now. I am going to stop the K for a few weeks and see what transpires. I mean things were OK up to the K dosing. I am hoping they will go back to "normal" as I reduce the dosage again.

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Just curious, but are these holes occurring on old growth or new growth


2la,
The holes are on newer growth. The new shoots are fine for a period. As the leaves grow, the holes pinpoint, and then expand. The holes look almost as if the plant was being munched on. The holes leave the central vein in the leaf intact for a while, but that too disappears.

Do you have any idea 2la?

Mike


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## 2la (Aug 18, 2002)

Interveinal chlorosis is almost pathognomonic for manganese deficiency. Excessive iron can also do this by blocking manganese uptake. Reduce the K+ would be my advice.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Ptahkeem said:


> Hey Momotaro
> just out of curiosity but how would you go about dosing Ca? Im not sure but I have a similar problem. My plants arent showing signs of holes in their leaves but new leaf growth is crinkled and my stargrass had black creases in it which suggest a potassium deficiency. The thing is though that I dose 10ppm of K three times a week. Im thinking that maybe my Ca levels are not at the 4:1 ratio that they should be which is why Im getting these deficiencies.


Your problem sounds similar to Mikes, you might be OD'ing the K as well. I thought crinkled leaf growth is a sign of a Ca deficiency.

When I dose Ca I use a reef product, the Kent Liquid Calcium.


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## Ptahkeem (May 5, 2003)

would dosing Ca raise your gH or kH?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Dosing Ca raises your GH directly and your KH indirectly.


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## Ptahkeem (May 5, 2003)

Hmm so how would I go about dosing Ca? My water has a fairly high gH and kH supposably. If you havent seen my water parameters they are:
gH 13.12degrees
kH 7.37degrees
How exactly would adding Ca affect my gH and kH and how much would I know to dose? Sorry if I ask so many questions Ive never heard of anynoe dosing Ca before and I assumed that my gH and kH were high enough where I only had to dose NPK and micros.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> Dosing Ca raises your GH directly and your KH indirectly.


Are you talking calcium carbonate, or any calcium salt, e.g. CaCl2, and if so, how would that work?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Ptahkeem 

It sounds like you have plenty of CA in your water. I wouldn't dose that or magnesium right now.

James

I just meant adding Ca to water, I wasn't talking about what form. GH is a measure of Calcium and Magnesium and a few other metals that don't usually occur in large enough amounts to be of concern. KH is a measure of (bi)carbonate ion hardness. Having Ca in the water allows more CO2 to dissociate and become (bi)carbonate when the Ca ion associates with a bicarbonate ion and "removes" it from the solution. The unassociated Ca pulls the CO2 equation towards the carbonate side. Adding Calcium carbonate obviously doesn't pull the equation but adding CaCl2 would.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Here is a shot of the holes...finally!!

Mike


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Interesting, what kind of fish and snails inhabit your tank?


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Those holes don't look like mine. They look as though something's eating the plant (as Sean suggested).


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Hmmm...

I have been noticing little pieces of the leaves floting around lately, as if they have been cut out!

In the aquarium there are Cardinal tetras, a couple of Rams, two Kerri Blue tetras, one Oto, a gang of Amano shrimp, a gaggle of Cherry Red shrimp, Ramshorn snails, some MTS that hitch hiked in.

Any ideas????

Mike


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

IMO those look like holes that have been eaten. I have holes in my A. reineckii as well, but they look like movable nutrient holes. They are all round and about the same size. 

Yours look like something is eating them. My guess would be the ramhorns.


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## 2la (Aug 18, 2002)

I agree, I think something's actively destroying the leaves. With such cleanly cut holes and nicks, I'm going to go out on a limb and present the possibility that you may have some beetle or fly larva(e) that constructs a shelter from bits of leaves. I of course could be wrong, but look closely for any actively moving bits of leaves...


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Funny how this appeared in January and February. In one of the coldest years in a while. I can't see where the larve could have come from, but I will keep and eye out!

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I have a little Marc Weiss pinpoint moonlight and I place it above the A. reineckii. I am going to keep an eye out for any alien critters! :evil: 

Mike


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

Do you have caddis fly larvae in your local streams?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Thanks for the suggestion Putty.

Waterways have been pretty frozen around here, so I am not sure where any insects would have come from??

Mike


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Hey Mike, did you ever figure out what caused the troubles with the Alternanthera? Nutrients or hungry animals?


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

i am curious too, b/c i also have the holes.everything else in the tank are without holes except for that!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Can't seem to figure it out!

The plants are _torn_ to pieces! I have snuck up on the aquarium in the middle of the night and flipped on the lights and seen nothing. The tearing slowed down for a short period of time, but now it is worse than ever. You would think if it was some sort insect larve, the bug would have left the water by now. I would certainly think that being an insect in it's larval stage, reproduction of the invading pest would not occur for the very reason that the insect is in it's larval stage. Reproduction would be reserved for the insect's physiological maturity. The other plants are fine. You would think the offender would attack the softer leaved plants. The only plant under attack is A. reineckii.

I do have a theory. It is unproven. I shouldn't even mention it for fear of creating a panic in the planted aquarium world. I am starting to think the culprits are......_the shrimp_! :eek5: 

Mike


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

Hmmm...so why isn't my A. reinickii torn to shreds?


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

if i may humbly interject here for just one moment. could it be snails? unless the shrimp have the ability to tear holes, i am not so sure. plus, as george has stated, it has not happened to his. and why those leaves as opposed to some other soft leaved plants that are probably in the aquarium too? especially something like the lotus. could it possibly be allelopathy, where a plant use chemical defense to defend and protect? kind of a shot in the dark, but is that possible?


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

this may not apply to all. i went to the local aquatic plant club meeting yesterday and we discussed the whole affect. the standing consensus is that there is some plant in the tank sucking up all the potassium. mine are the sword right beside it and the tiger lotus. and since the reineckii is such a fast grower, it is suffer the most. does this sound applicable?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

*Lack of potassium shredding Alternanthera to pieces?*

Sounds great for a headline, but a little hard to believe. Remember earlier Momo mentioned that the problems started when he increased the K dosing.

Plus, if I remember right there are no such potassium sucking plants in his tank.

Plus, I have both swords and tiger lotus, *AND* Momo's Alternanthera, and there is no shredding in my tank. Some of the plants have a little crinkled leaves, but I just throw them out selectively, no problem. The Sword plants, on the other hand, show clear signs of potassium deficiencies.

I don't recall exactly how it looked, but it was more like something chewing it up.

Anyone fish/snails/shrimps featuring reddish poop? :wink:


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

all sarcasm aside, do amano shrimp eat plants? i know they eat algae. and same for ottos?


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## ming (Dec 6, 2003)

Is something wrong with my login or something? For some strange reason, I see no pics on all 3 pages. I see pics on certain other threads though...


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Hmmm...
> 
> I have been noticing little pieces of the leaves floting around lately, as if they have been cut out!
> 
> ...


After re-reading the entire thread again, and looking closely at A.r. in my ramshorn snail infested tank, I would say Putty's guess was right on.
Mike... did you notice any fluctuations in ramshorn numbers? Are they still there?

Ming... when the website was moved to a new software, no attachments were carried over. Some ppl re-attached pics in their threads, some didn't, and the pics are not visible to anyone.


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

i have only seen one, and that guy is pretty small. so where there is one, they are probably more. should i/we get loaches? will they attack the shrimp?


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

ming said:


> Is something wrong with my login or something? For some strange reason, I see no pics on all 3 pages. I see pics on certain other threads though...


I don't think the pix migrated with the threads when they came over from the archived board. That's why I haven't bothered to change my sig links.


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## putty (Nov 19, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> I have a little Marc Weiss pinpoint moonlight and I place it above the A. reineckii. I am going to keep an eye out for any alien critters! :evil:
> 
> Mike


Wasn't someone on here reporting that direct blue LED light was burining holes in their plant?

I did a search but cannot find it. How intense is the moon light on the plant? Can you correlate the areas with the holes to the areas where the LED light is hitting the plant?

Edit: Found it. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7153&highlight=moonlight 

It seems the moonlight may have been melting the pelia. Could be something mabye, but my money is still on the snails.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> all sarcasm aside, do amano shrimp eat plants?


Yikes! That was why I was afraid to post my theory. I don't want to start a rumor. i don't want to be the guy who said Amano shrimp eat plants!

No Clay. _Amano shrimp will not eat plants._

Putty: I put the light on temporarily. I believe for a total of two nights, so I don't think that is the case. If memory serves me correctly, someone left some LED moonlights over their Pelia and it died off. Was it Vinlo or Gomer?

WP: There is no over abundance of Ramshorn snails. I am starting to think that whatever problem there is with the A. reineckii, it is being exacerbated by the shrimp.

Now, there is not an abundance of algae in my aquarium. There is an abundance of shrimp. Some Amanos and tons of Cherry Reds. More shrimp than food. I am thinking that for some reason there is a problem with my A reineckii. The leaves are breaking down and the shrimp swoop in and start to chow down on the dying parts, ripping up the leaves in the process.

I am going to cut back the A. reineckii, clean it well, and put it in another aquarium. We'll see what happens then!

Mike


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> WP: There is no over abundance of Ramshorn snails.


Don't exclude this possibility. Ramshorn snails in my 43 gal tank don't touch most of the plants, as far as I can see, but the A. reineckii looks eaten.
I looked up your pic in the old forum, and it looks very much like A. r. looks in my infested tank.


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

first, momotaro, i did see an article that referenced you in today's dallas herald out your theory of amano shrimp and their normal eating happens involving A. reineckii. :tongue: 

second, what is it about the A. reineckii that makes it more tender (and possibly yummy) as opposed to other red plants? my tiger seems to have much more tender leaves, but i does not have a single hole!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> first, momotaro, i did see an article that referenced you in today's dallas herald out your theory of amano shrimp and their normal eating happens involving A. reineckii. :tongue:


LOL!!! 

I have to admit, I did a double take! 


I am thinking that the shrimp may be taking advantage of a problem with the plant itself. They see a meal and go for it! Kinda like me!!

Mike


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

well, it will be a while before i can say. i did a major chop on all the plants to about the same height so that the lower parts can get more sun. hated doing it.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

The plants are absolutely _decimated!_  


Mike


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## clay (Nov 28, 2003)

sorry to hear that. still think it is the shrimp? maybe the snails at night? ottos?


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