# my first planted tank,,,,,the great,,,,,,,,,180G



## 180g (May 20, 2014)

hi, this is the thread for the progression of my 180 gallon planted turtle tank (don't worry its a musk turtle they generally do well with plants). I have been lurking for awhile and I have been trying to obtain the most knowledge possible. I got the tank off craigslist for $300 and he threw in a wet/dry filter for an extra $20. me and my dad built a stand for the tank out of 2x6s and 4x4s. for the lighting im looking at some t5HO grow lights off [Ebay Link Removed] I haven't looked at heating yet but ill get there :icon_roll. I got a piece of driftwood from the beach. for the theme I made a drawing that was the most ugly things ive ever seen :icon_eek:. but here is where I am now.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Welcome to TPT!

What a great tank, I'm jealous! :smile:

Are you planning on setting this up with pressurized CO2 and go high tech, or stay low tech with it?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

lauraleellbp, i'm not sure. I mite just use flourish excel. how affective is it? and are the flourish root tabs good? if not ive heard some good things about rootmedic but I cant seem to find where I can buy there root tabs. I'm definitely going to use root tabs because I am going to use pool filter sand for substrate.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

also, are there any affordable substrates that look like pool filter sand but carry nutrients? and is 2wpg of t5ho grow lights enough light?


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

There is always the choice of putting in dirt underneath your sand, then adding sand as a cap. This allows for nutrients while the sand prevents the dirt from leeching too much into the water. 2wpg is enough for most plants. You'll find that that should be more than sufficient for most plants.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

that's a great answer mistuhmark. the reason I cant do that is because my musk turtle is going in this tank and he likes to play in the sand. he will mix the substrate and cloudy up the water.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

this is my turtle nugget :tongue:


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Yessssss, another musk turtle tank.

You guys are slowly but very surely making me want one XD


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

hybridherp, you shoud totally get one. there awsoooome and have the funniest and most interesting personalities. they also stay small and there poop fertilizes the plants. they wont harm the plants or fish as long as the fish isn't already about to die!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

180g said:


> lauraleellbp, i'm not sure. I mite just use flourish excel. how affective is it? and are the flourish root tabs good? if not ive heard some good things about rootmedic but I cant seem to find where I can buy there root tabs. I'm definitely going to use root tabs because I am going to use pool filter sand for substrate.


Dosing Excel would be EXTREMELY expensive on a tank this size.

Flourish root tabs are good, but also would end up expensive over time.

Rootmedic I'm pretty sure is out of business.



180g said:


> also, are there any affordable substrates that look like pool filter sand but carry nutrients? and is 2wpg of t5ho grow lights enough light?


You might try Turface or SafeTsorb, though both may be too lightweight to stand up to a turtle? Most of the heavier commercial substrates branded for aquarium use will run around $2/lb. That will add up fast. Pool filter sand (or possibly Ceramaquartz) to cap some Miracle Gro is the direction I'd probably go in your shoes.

2 wpg of T5HO will be a HUGE amount of light over this tank, you would absolutely have to have a very good pressurized CO2 setup (possibly two due to the tank size?) to keep up with that much light.

I would worry about a turtle trying to climb or bumping into CO2 equipment... I think I would go low light/low tech with this tank due to the turtle.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

forgive me if im wrong but wouldn't it cost only $8 a month to dose this tank with excel daily?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

could I use a scaled up version of the diy co2? like 4 of them each with a gallon jug instead of a 2L bottle. if they lasted 2 weeks I would start 2 of them then after a week I would start the next 2 to try and stabilize the co2 output. and yes I am willing to mix yeast and sugar once a week. if this is not enough I will raise the lights because I really dot want pressurized co2.


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## colaudrey (Oct 4, 2013)

with 180g, diy co2 is really impractical. you'll need more than 4 1 gallon jugs, and to get the proper concentration throughout the tank would be difficult. cost will add up over time (sugar, specific yeast to get optimum co2 ouput for diy...) if you're sure on not going pressurized, raise the lights enough for your plants. excel cost will also add up over time, its mostly water anyways...


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I read a thread on a different forum about a guy using 10 2 liter bottles for a diy set up for his 180. he alternated the jugs so that his ppm didn't fluctuate that much from 30. it cost him $20 and an extra $4 a month. he showed a video of when he first started and in 9 days he showed another and his plants grew tremendously in those 9 days. so i'll try it and tell you guys how it works.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

You could always use metricide in place of Excel. It's the same thing at a fraction of the cost. I buy the quarts from Amazon but they appear to be out of stock atm. Here's the gallon size


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## RisingSun (Jan 5, 2014)

Woot another turtle tank! can't wait to see how this turns out


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

If you really think about it, then getting pressurized co2 would be more practical in this situation. If what you say is true, and it'll cost about 20$ a month for the DIY co2, then pressurized will cost more initially, but be less expensive as time goes on.


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

mistuhmarc said:


> If you really think about it, then getting pressurized co2 would be more practical in this situation. If what you say is true, and it'll cost about 20$ a month for the DIY co2, then pressurized will cost more initially, but be less expensive as time goes on.



Nothing beats a proper pressurized system man.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I meant it cost $20 to build. and only $4 a month. sorry about any misunderstanding. also im going to use it until my plants fill in to where I want them then I will raise the lights and stop the co2 to slow down the growth.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

do you guys know how many psi 2 1 gallon jugs each with 1 cup of sugar and a tsp of yeast create?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You're talking about an organic culturing process based on live organisms using ingredients that are going to vary from batch to batch.

The number of variables that are difficult if not impossible to control using DIY CO2 are the reason that people recommend going to pressurized once you start working with bigger tanks.


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## quark (Jan 10, 2014)

Turtles in a planted tank? sign me up!

I would have to agree with folks, a tank this size, I wouldn't think about doing DIY co2, unless you just want to do it just for the heck of it. Even if it was more expensive in the long run to dose excel, I would still do pressurize. I'd like to keep my sanity, couldn't imaging 10 bottles of water yeast and sugar for my 120gallon tank, and with hardly any control mechanisms.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

DIY co2 on a tank that size won't work. It will be so inconsistent, when the house warmer's up the co2 will come out fast, when the house cools down the co2 will slow down. I did diy co2 on a 10 gallon and 20 gallon for a long time, I got so sick of it, what a pain it was. I tried every formula online and found that within one week I had to change out the mixture. The best part of diy co2 for me was taking the bottles outside and slinging lead at them.:hihi:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm trying to remember who it was, but there was a member here who kept I think 4 bottles of DIY CO2 going for a year or so on a 55gal before they got sick of setting up new bottles every other day.

I have no idea how many bottles it would take for a 180gal to achieve a high enough CO2 level to make it worth the effort, but I expect at least one or two bottles would have to be swapped out every day.

It would probably also require a whole lot of extra equipment inside the tank, maybe a diffuser or two for every foot?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

Well I'm not going to go pressurized. And any amount of co2 is helpful. So maybe I won't get optimal amounts of co2 in the tank but like I said any amount of co2 is helpful. It's been done before and there are ways to stabilize the output. So,,,,I'm going to do it.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

here's a nother guy I found that has diy co2 for his 150 gallon.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1P-nAehSxc


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

and another.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY673PB9GnA


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

Well it's your choice, no one's stopping you man. I just can't imagine the amount of work I'd have to put into mixing diy co2 for a tank that large . I had a problem keeping up with my DIY, and I got so tired of it that I switched to paintball co2. It worked so much better afterwards.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd like to see a drop checker showing what kind of levels those two tanks are getting. I doubt it's very much, especially with the way both are diffusing it with the line running into the outflow's air hole. They should at least have it going in behind the propeller. 

Before doing that I'd drop $35 on a gallon of Metricide and be done with it. You'd be set for like a year and probably provide more useable carbon that those set-ups do.


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## quark (Jan 10, 2014)

I'm not sure if this is your first planted tank, ever, or just a first of something, but I too would be excited about adding CO2 into a planted tank, I can tell you that I've been there, and pretty sure all those other guys who recommend against DIY CO2 for a tank this size, also have had the experience. If you are set on DIY Co2, by all means, go for it. This is a hobby after all, and one that we should enjoy doing however we want. Pressurized CO2 or DIY co2, or Excel dosing, get the tank wet, put some plants and fish, and enjoy!.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

The 2L bottle are used because they can hold a tremendous amount of pressure
compared to a gallon jug. You can actually drive a car over a 2L bottle.
For the life of me I can't understand why people say "for a fraction of the cost"
when talking about Metricide. After you look up the percent of water in each you
will see plainly that they cost almost identical, but the shipping is free on Amazon
making it a bit cheaper than Excel.
It does help quite a bit with GSA in my tank @ 2 x the recommended doses DAILY.
So that works out to 1 oz per day for a 180g tank. So about $8 per month like
you said and especially if this is only temporary as you said...you will spend less than the start up cost for the injected CO2 in the first year you use it. After that if you continue to use it, you will be shooting yourself in the foot.

BTW do you know the correct exact name of this turtle as there are several kinds of "musk" turtles.
I know of one which get no more than 2.5" and is 100% aquatic. Yours looks like one of them.
One of the places I go down by the lake near me has one of the regular type(the most common musk turtle) which
is apparently very old as it is about (the shell) 4" wide and 8"-9" long. A real monster in size for those.
I have seen him 3 or 4 times...he will stay right where he is. I would consider it a crime to take him out of a
lake that has more than 1000 miles of edge and put him in a tank of any size.

Oops sorry you asked about root tabs. The Osmocote+ is said to have full nutrients.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=506393&highlight=


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> For the life of me I can't understand why people say "for a fraction of the cost"
> when talking about Metricide. After you look up the percent of water in each you
> will see plainly that they cost almost identical, but the shipping is free on Amazon
> making it a bit cheaper than Excel.


Eh, Metricide is 2.6% glutaraldehyde. Excel is roughly 1.6%. It only takes about 6 ML of Metricide to equal a 10 ML dose of Excel.

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/7153-flourish-Excel-Alternatives?highlight=metricide
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104038&highlight=metricide


One Gallon of Metricide is $30 on Amazon - 




Two Litres of Excel is $31 - 





People say it's a fraction of the cost, because it is.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

quark said:


> If you are set on DIY Co2, by all means, go for it. This is a hobby after all, and one that we should enjoy doing however we want. Pressurized CO2 or DIY co2, or Excel dosing, get the tank wet, put some plants and fish, and enjoy!.


Amen.

Your stubbornness makes me giggle. Reminds me of this person i meet sometimes when i look in the mirror... :help:


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

hey Raymond S., ive done lots of research and I am 100% sure he's a common musk turtle. he came out of a lake when he was about the size of a dime and this lake is chalk full of common musk turtles. he is only a juvenile so that's why his shell doesn't look like the rounded stone look wich it will when he gets about 3 or 4 years old. right now he is about 2 and a half inches long and he is still growing pretty fast but has slowed just a bit. as for that big musk that you see at that lake, if it is as big as you say it is it could be a record holder for a common musk. normally the biggest females are about 6 inches. look at pictures of other turtles it mite be like the giant Mexican musk or the common snapping turtle. if they don't match up I think you have a true one of a kind:wink:


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

also I have a little pond that is full of what I think is dwarf hairgrass. the hairgrass is in carpets in the bottom. there is one problem though, it looks like most of it is 3 to 7 inches tall and I saw a few that were more than a foot. the water is pretty murky not letting much light through possibly causing the height of these plants but im not sure. does anyone know what type of plant this is and if it will grow in pool filter sand with good root tabs?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

There are a *LOT* of Eleocharis species that are native as well as invasive in the US.

http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch

Try em and see what they do!


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

lauraleellbp, im not sure but I have some pics. the reason it looks so unhealthy is because I had it laying on a counter for a month


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I doubt that will end up being a dwarf species, but I'll be curious to see if it will survive indefinitely submerged.

A lot of species can survive for a while completely submerged, but they're used to the water draining/evaporating away in the wild, and primarily only grow when emersed.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

yea, most that I saw was out of the water and we haven't had rain for awile so I think it is the type that is used to being in out in out of the water. how long do you think it will survive in the tank if I put it there continually submerged? most of it is 5 to 8 inches tall. I saw a place that is normally a putle but is almost dry and I saw what looks exactly like the parvula kind(I think I spelled that right). I don't have pics of that but here are some more pics of the stuff I saw in the lake.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Totally depends on what species you have, and it's possible no one has even tried this particular one in an aquarium with good lighting, CO2, and ferts, so... you let us know! LOL


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok, since ive seen it mostly around 7 inches is there a way that I can trim it and keep it a little smaller(like 4 to 6 inches) without it looking like I did or hurting the plant? like cutting it unevenly?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The Eleocharis species we keep commonly in the hobby do pretty well with being "mowed"- they respond to it like grass in the lawn.

I'd probably try not to mess with this newly transplanted batch too much until it's finished acclimating to your tank, though.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok, thanks for the input. the picture of it in my tank is not the 180g its my turtles 20g and its not permanent incase you were wondering why im not showing the filled thing. I put it there for the pics. :bounce: it is going to be a little longer before I get the 180g setup.  but I hope its going to be good when it is done!


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how would you guys stock this tank? im going to put some algae eating catfish in here(I cant remember the real name) to keep down the algae blooms.


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

180g said:


> how would you guys stock this tank? im going to put some algae eating catfish in here(I cant remember the real name) to keep down the algae blooms.


Depends on what you're looking for. In terms of small size and ferocious algae eating habits, otocincluses are the way to go. They require a small school though.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

For this size tank, I'd stock a few Bushynose Plecos, a dozen or so Amano shrimp, 10-15x Oto cats, and half dozen or so nerite snails all as a part of the algae crew.

Then some scavengers; loaches, catfish like Cories or Pictus (depending on what else you want to stock), Malaysian Trumpet snails, etc.

What other fish appeal to you? Large schools of tetras, angelfish, dwarf cichlids, rainbowfish, barbs, rasporas..?


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

If you're talking green water no fish deals with that (although vampire and bamboo shrimp would love it, as well as clams)


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I have a lake FULL of crawfish do they eat algae?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

im looking for something that eats a lot of algae


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

For algae ill probably get some SAE. for my diy co2 im trying to find a good price on some used empty 3-5 gallon propane tanks. im trying to get 2. is there any problem with using empty propane tanks or will they be fine? ill wash them realy good to make sure there is NO propane left. im going to try EI dosing for ferts and get osmocote+ root tabs off ebay.


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## quark (Jan 10, 2014)

propane tanks? huh...... The BBQ grill kind? or the torch ones? I've never heard of using either for DIY Co2, but I'd be tough to refill the torch ones because the pin valve isn't removable. The BBQ grill ones, the valve is removable but difficult and you need to deal with the float on the inside. Are you going to build pressure from the DIY co2 and then regulate the output some way? DIY Co2, Big plastic jugs would be easier to work with. Not to mention that propane tanks will likely rust with the water/sugar mixture.

Probably won't like what I'm about to say next, but hows about an empty aluminum 5lb co2 tank or a paintball tank instead? :biggrin:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I would go with food-grade plastic containers rather than anything that held a highly flammable gas.


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

SAEs are more inclined to eat whatever they can rather than just stay eating algae. But they are more specialized at eating a specific type of algae (hair algae) than other algaes. Depending on the algae you have, only certain fish or shrimp will eat it.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Eureka! I found what you need for DIY CO2 on this tank!




(only partly kidding... lol)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lol


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

LOLOLOLOL, that's a good one!


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how long does it normally take for a tank this size to fill in? should I expect it to be a year before the tank looks really nice?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Depends on what kind and how many plants you start off with, how well the setup is balanced (lighting, nutrients, etc), and how good you end up at growing plants.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

got my lights today.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how hard is it to breed cardinal tetras? the reason I want to breed them is because I don't fell like spending a fortune on a big school of em. also how many can I expect to get if I breed say 10 per session?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I think I found some wild eleocharis parvula. I found it in an area wich is normally flooded. what do you think?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

wow this forum got reeeeaaaaly quiet all the sudon? :icon_eek:


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Its been an hour lol

I have no idea if that is wild E. parluva or not....I think you should post those pics in the plant section and ask for an ID


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

wild caught crayfish. his name is ,,,,,,,PABLO


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

so here's a list of plants I'm thinking about.

1. spiral val
2. ruffle sword
3. moneywort
4. anacheris
5. rosette sword
6. dwarf hairgrass
7. anubias
8. java fern

any thing I should add?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Maybe some finer leaved taller plants like Limnophila aquatica/indica, Water Sprite, Myrio that would make nice backdrop for swords and java fern. Red Tiger Lotus for color. Maybe a stand of Ludwidgia of your choice.

And get that guy a beer.

v3


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

good idea! but for some reason I don't seem to like the red plants so ill prob skip the lotus.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

alright, these are just wild guises but here are the numbers. tell me if im way off on numbers. im on a budget so I would like to get the least numbers possible and still look nice.
6 spiral vals
8 moneywort
3 rosette swords
1 water wisteria 
5 java fern
5 ruffle sword
5 Limnophila sessiliflora
6 sagittaria subulata
4 Rotala nanjenshan
3 cardinal plant
6 Staurogyne repens
2 anubias barteri var. nana 'narrow leaf'
3 Echinodorus Angustifolia
3 cryped wendtii 
mat of wild dwarf hairgrass
driftwood
rocks

anything missing?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

uuuuuuhggg why do anubias have to be sooo expensive.


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

Where do you get all of these things?!?! hahaha


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I have not a clue LOL!, well the plants I get at http://www.thatpetplace.com/pet-supplies-search#!aquarium-livestock/live-aquarium-plants&ea_d=_1_72 the crawfish came from a lake and the driftwood and rocks from around the lake and the inspiration from looking at other tanks here.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok so im going to try ei dosing. why do I have to change the water more when doing this? is there a way to avoid this?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

180g said:


> is there a way to avoid this?


Yes.

Set up a low light/low tech tank.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I just don't know - feels like awfully few plants for that tank size. Have you had a chance to check out RAOK section?

v3


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

180g said:


> ok so im going to try ei dosing. why do I have to change the water more when doing this? is there a way to avoid this?


It purely depends on how you choose to dose the tank. Dosing at 1/3 ei dosing levels would mean that your tank wouldn't necessarily need to have a water change as often as a tank that is dosed at full ei dosing levels. EI dosing adds a high amount of ferts to the water, (which in super high amounts can be bad for fish and plants), so that's why you do a water change in order to reset the tank and remove any remains for next time.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

whats the RAOK section? and how do my numbers for plants look i changed them slightly, are they good?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

hello?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I just found out about how big water sprite gets. is there a nother plant that looks like it but stays about 6 inches? or is there a way to keep it small?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=1708112

v3


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

this says it becomes a monster im looking for something kinda smaller.


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

The RAOK section is under the "WTB/RAOK" section of the member's forum. It's under the for sale section basically .


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok thanks


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how powerful of a heater do I need for this tank? we generally keep our house around 73-75 and I want the tank to be about 79. the glass is a little over 1/2 inch thick.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

no one has responded on if the number of plants iv posted is good :help:? may someone please answer this im dying to know :icon_smil I want to get the most economical number possible.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

well I have reached my 100th post and I have only scratched the surface. :bounce: time to keep on truckin  <----------


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

Honestly, throw in as many plants as possible during initials setup. Sure, plants grow, but more plant mass will better stabilize the tank initially. Also, use your eyes, you may find that what you get at first won't really fill out the tank much, in which case you then add more as necessary.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok thanks, im filled with Questions arnt I


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## Pisces 56 (Jun 3, 2014)

That turtle is the damnedest cutest thing I've seen in a long time! I could just kiss him!

I'm not a CO2er. Just came by to read, see pics, learn something.

I have learned I don't ever want to be a CO2er. :biggrin:


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

thanks, nuggets my little baby. :tongue:


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

got the sand today here's my tank so far. I got a lux meter off my phone and I did the math and I have 55-60 par at the sub. is this high light?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

bumb


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## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

It's around med-high light I believe.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

OVT said:


> I just don't know - feels like awfully few plants for that tank size.


That was my answer and still is. To put it more directly: in my book, your current list might be just enough for a 10g.

When I start a brand new tank, I try to throw in as many 'junky, weedy, hungry, monster' plants in as I can get my hands on. You can dump them or RAOK them in a month or two, once the tank settles down. Adding a bunch of floaters helps also.

Do keep in mind that some of the plants on your list will come in from that retailer in emmersed form. That means that maybe half of them will rot and die in the tank while converting to submersed growth. Starting a new tank with rotting plants is not a recipe for success.

v3


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

wow, I had no idea it was that little. cant a single ruffle sword fill a 10 gallon?


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

180g said:


> wow, I had no idea it was that little. cant a single ruffle sword fill a 10 gallon?



As it grows yah but I doubt you are getting a full adult sword right off the bat.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how long will it take to become a full adult sword with med high lights, ei dosing, osmacote root tabs, and co2?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok so I have 2 extra 15lb propane tanks im going to use for my diy co2. im going to paint the insides with rust resistant paint. iv already inspected for rust and there is none.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

for mi diy co2 im going to use Wyeast's whine making yeast. it is said to have twice the alcohol tolerance and last twice as long as normal yeast and has a higher co2 output and a more steady output. so it should last 3-4 weeks. im using 2 5g propane tanks wich is almost twice what I need but im going to put the amount of yeast that is right for my water volume in my tank so that means it will also take longer for the alcohol levels to rise to the point were the yeast die because of the water volume in the propane tanks. this will also contribute to a longer lasting mixture.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

Im about ready to get plants all I need is a heater and some tubing for my wet/dry filter. does the wet/dry filter put enough oxygen in the water for the fish?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

anyone? I'm sorry for being impatient but I am about ready to get fish and I want to make sure I don't kill them.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You aren't going to get high enough concentrations of CO2 on a tank this big with DIY to worry about gassing your fish.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok, that's a relief.


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## UDGags (Sep 13, 2009)

Yes, a wet/dry will provide enough oxygen. Some surface ripple from a powerhead would also be beneficial.

On my 125g, I use two in-line Hydor's and have never had an issue. Most heaters have specs so just buy a couple that fit the bill. If you have livestock that can't handle the lower temperature than have a back-up in place or two running that can each handle the entire load.

As LauraLee stated you won't gas your fish with DIY CO2.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

I have been at our property this weekend and I picked up some plants from the pond. here is what I got. the val I have no idea if it really is a val but im hoping its a valisineria asiatica. what do you think? I also have a lot more hairgrass than what's in the tank.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

here is a nother pland that I need ID'ed. it is a lot like the grass in a yard. it grows along the ground with lots of runners.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

first person to id gets a thanks and a smile face!


(those aren't things I give out often)


thanks :smile:


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

SAE vs ottos. which on do you recommend for algae control for this tank? which one will eat more algae? ottos only cost a dollar and sae cost 3 so if ottos eat more than 1/3 the algae than sae each than ill get ottos.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

all rite im looking for a type of small blue and black striped cichlid that I can keep with a small school of cards and rummies. would the demasoni cichlid work? if not any other ideas?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I'd get 6-10 Ottos first and foremost. I dont care what others say, they are single handedly responsible for keeping two of my tanks algae free.


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## du3ce (Jan 26, 2013)

a demasoni would either nip at your fish fins or eat it


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## Mides (Sep 15, 2013)

180g said:


> SAE vs ottos. which on do you recommend for algae control for this tank? which one will eat more algae? ottos only cost a dollar and sae cost 3 so if ottos eat more than 1/3 the algae than sae each than ill get ottos.


Otos cost a dollar for you? Wow, down here in Australia, you'll pay 11-13 dollars each!


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

180g said:


> all rite im looking for a type of small blue and black striped cichlid that I can keep with a small school of cards and rummies. would the demasoni cichlid work? if not any other ideas?



Look into apistos and rams


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## elegysanft (Feb 3, 2013)

Blue steel apistos are blue and black though stay relatively small if i remember right


Females become a bright yellow when breeding though


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## jay973 (Feb 5, 2009)

I keep otos, long fin bn, RCS, japonica shrimp, and one SAE in my 180g so why limit yourself to one or the other =). SAE can get aggressive when they get bigger I gave my larger one away and got a smaller one again.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

what do you guys think about this filter? im reading great reviews about it on another forum.http://www.aquatraders.com/Aquarium-Canister-Filter-Odyssea-CFS-14i-p/42054.htm


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

180g said:


> what do you guys think about this filter? im reading great reviews about it on another forum.http://www.aquatraders.com/Aquarium-Canister-Filter-Odyssea-CFS-14i-p/42054.htm



Unimpressed. The UV on that is nothing to write home about.

Why not use a sump? For canisters I like ehiem a lot but you'd want at least 2 or 3 canisters for a tank this size.


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

+2 on the sump.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

the reason i don't want a sump is because I don't feel like spending $400 to keep water clear. 1400gph of canister filter should be enough right? it is 3 foot tall it has mechanical and biological filtration and if I didn't like one of the two than I could make it all mech or all bio.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Tank this size I'd personally want at least 3 canister filters on. I generally want one for every 2' of tank.

Or you might look at Ocean Clears: Amazon.com: Ocean Clear Model 340 Canister Filter with Pleated 25 Micron Filter and Bio-C...: Everything Else Paired with a good pump, you might be able to make do with only one of these. You'd need to make sure you have room to access it for cleaning, though.

A DIY sump would definitely be the cheapest way to go by a long shot.


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## jay973 (Feb 5, 2009)

If you are interested in a sump surf craigslist they have bargins on there at times.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

laurel just curios but why would 3 smaller canister filters be better than 1 big one?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

For filtration efficay reasons. Three intakes and outputs instead of just one of each. 

You could increase flow alone just by adding in some strategically placed powerheads, but that's not going to increase the area of the tank that is drawn into the filter's intake.

Most filter intakes I've seen will pull debris in from less than a 2' area in the tank. Any debris outside that area is just going to fall to the bottom of the tank and require manual removal.

You can work with powerhead arrangements to push debris towards a filter intake, but I personally just don't like powerheads, I'd rather increase total filtration.

I'm lazy, I like to reduce tank maintenance *work* as much as possible LOL


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok, I mite still go with 1 big and let the poop that settle where plants are stay until water change and if I see exec poop in the open ill just stir it all up with my hand. how much bio load would 80 cards 40 rummies, couple sae, and about 5 rosy barbs create?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

180g said:


> how much bio load would 80 cards 40 rummies, couple sae, and about 5 rosy barbs create?


Not sure what you're asking. How often you'll need to clean your tank?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

the amount of poop they will put out. like 100 goldfish would be a heavy bio load because of how messy they are and 15 tetras would be a light bio load. so will there be a lot of poop in the tank needing lots of filtration or that shouldn't be a problem with this amount of fish if I go with normal filtration levels.


(sorry I went a bit over board :angel: )


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

What you're talking about would be a light bioload, if that's what stocking you actually end up with in this tank.

However- you're counting chickens before they're hatched, so IMO this part of the disussion is a moot point LOL


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

yea your rite I tend to do that alot


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

You can DIY a sump


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

hybridherp that's a great idea its just I have no time to spend right now so maybe with my next tank in the future. (hopefully a 350 gallon).


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

here is a great modification of the smaller version that would work with this one too.http://aquariacentral.com/forums/sh...-filter-review-and-circumference-modification


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

ok I have been going back and forth on if I should get the odyssea 14i or the aquatop pfs300 which is a pond filter. which one do you think will end up filtering better over all? the pfs300 says its good for 2500gph but actually comes with a 1190gph pump.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Doesn't sound like anyone here has used either.

If your goal here is to save money, you could always go with sponge filters for filtration and powerheads for water movement.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

alright, time for a small update.

for filtration I am working on a diy canister filter. it will be a circumference filter meaning that the water will flow in at the top. then flow around the edges of the media. finally it will be pulled through the media into the center where there will be a pvc pipe full of holes and attached to the pump where the water will flow in and be pumped out back to the tank. it will have a 2600gph pump in it. this may sound a bit overkill but after the restrictions of the media it will flow about half that. as far as making it work, my dad designs a LARGE array of systems for airplanes including pluming and he is the most handy man I've ever met. I cant remember a time that we have failed at fixing or making something work.


the tank currently has some type of dwarf hairgrass and what I thought was a spiral val but turned out to be some sort of non aquatic plant in it. the hairgrass is doing very well considering it has no co2, no ferts, and the lights have been off for a week since we were working on them. they are also starting to put out a :LOT: of runners. maybe the reason they are doing so well is because I got them in a place where you wouldn't think hairgrass would be able to survive because of low light and poor conditions making them VERY hardy specimens.


after I get a good filter up and running I will think about getting ferts, plants, and fish for it. I will also get my propane tanks running diy co2 for them soon. that's it for now I might take some pics in the morning.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

pics of DHG runner and nugget. tank has some suspended particles because of the lack of sufficient filtration right now.


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

can I keep an EBJD with tetras? I have seen it on other tanks and wanted to know if these cichlids would be ok with tetras. also will they destroy plants?


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

how about the numbers now? remember im trying to get the least possible and still look good. I also have a pond FULL of these WEEDY, NASTY, VIGGORUS, floating plants that I can put in there if I need more plant mass at first.
25 (stems) Bacopa carolinias
6 spiral vals
3 (bunches) anacheris
8 (bunches) moneywort
2 rosette swords
4 (stems) water wisteria 
3 java fern
3 ruffle sword
4 (bunches) Rotala nanjenshan
5 cardinal plant
5 Staurogyne repens
mat of wild dwarf hairgrass
driftwood
rocks


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Wow!! What a project. I am astonished that you are starting with such a big tank. You do mean 180 gallons? I wonder how long it will take to cycle. Electric bill will definately jump up.


180g said:


> how powerful of a heater do I need for this tank?


Depending on the type of fish you get you could get by without a heater. I don't keep heaters in my tanks, 20G and 10G. The 10G temp fluctuates more I noticed.


180g said:


> I got a lux meter off my phone and I did the math and I have 55-60 par at the sub. is this high light?


PAR
35-50 Medium light
50 and above- High light. 



180g said:


> here is a nother pland that I need ID'ed. it is a lot like the grass in a yard. it grows along the ground with lots of runners.


Looks like sagittaria.


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## AutumnSun (Jun 28, 2014)

your turtle is cute


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## The Dude (Feb 8, 2011)

You should start setting some money aside and stop trying to get away with being as cheap as possible. Big tanks are expensive for MANY reasons. If you've got light, you're off to a great start. You need to pony up for decent filtration or you will likely have huge algae problems and / or water quality problems. Don't use plants from a backyard pond into an enclosed system. You will likely introduce parasites, pathogens, and bacteria that you are not prepared to combat. You are best off with a large sump or at least two large canister filters and some Powerheads. Maybe a couple 403 Sunsuns and a couple AC50 power heads? Keep your eyes open in the For Sale section for people doing huge trim sales and just buy the pack of trimmings. Most people will cut you a deal and you could probably do pretty well for $100. As for CO2. Maybe 8 2 liter bottles. Four linked into one tube going into the Powerhead on one side and 4 doing the same on the other. This is about as cheap as you can go and still have a functioning system. Fish are going to cost a lot. Emperor tetras breed easily I hear (in good water) as do Corydoras catfish, and BN plecos. For $160 you can do filters and powerheads. $100 for plants if you are thrifty.


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## AGUILAR3 (Jun 22, 2013)

The Dude said:


> You should start setting some money aside and stop trying to get away with being as cheap as possible.
> 
> You need to pony up for decent filtration
> 
> ...



You must have missed his filter thread 


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=681722&highlight=


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

AGUILAR3 said:


> You must have missed his filter thread
> 
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=681722&highlight=


thanks AGUILAR3. The Dude, I ended up deciding to get pressurized co2. I found a 20lb tank, a dual stage reg, an atomizer, co2 tubing, a needle valve, and bubble counter for under $100. I plan on spending $150 on plants and $150 on fish.


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## Sajeev (Mar 24, 2010)

180g said:


> I read a thread on a different forum about a guy using 10 2 liter bottles for a diy set up for his 180. he alternated the jugs so that his ppm didn't fluctuate that much from 30. it cost him $20 and an extra $4 a month. he showed a video of when he first started and in 9 days he showed another and his plants grew tremendously in those 9 days. so i'll try it and tell you guys how it works.


the amount of money you pay for sugar, yeast and the pain in making co2 this was is far more expensive than buying a 5lb co2 tank and regulator - I got one off the local club for total $50. It lasts me about 6 months. Refills cost about $12 at the local brewery or such stores.



ugh !! ok never mind,.


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