# It's not ich, but what is it? Now 4th fish sick. Torpedo Barb has Dropsy.



## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

if you are talking about the large white spot.. I don't think so.. maybe someone else will tell you different.. 

ick looks like you fish has a ton of salt just glued to it.


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## wyeto (Mar 13, 2008)

I dont think that that is Ich at least it dosent look like it to me. Maybe some sort of parasite or something?


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Torpedobarb is correct on both that is not ich. Ich will look like salt sprinkled on the fish. I would treat for bacterial infection. I had a koi that had something very close to that and I treated it with furazolidone powder.

If you have some melafix treat it with that and it dont cost much either.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Okay, in a way that's really good news! I definetly didn't want to have ich in the tank. But that's also bad news because I don't know what this is.

I wonder if this is what's on my apisto? I thought he was injured. But I noticed his spot/injury in the same way. One day, everything looked fine, then suddenly there's this large white area. I attributed it to my just not noticing it because there's so many fish, shrimp and plants in the tank.

What medicine would you guys recommend?

I'm also going to get a very close-up picture of my apisto now. I hate taking them out of the water for pictures, but he's had his spot for over a month already. If it's the same thing, I'd really like to know it.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is what it would seem to me.

Symptoms

One or many fish have blisters forming on the skin that are full of a clear to yellowish fluid. The blisters pop and turn into large sores.

Cause
Furunculosis (Aeromonas Salmonicida)

Treatments

Treat with: Furazolidone Powder in the water for 10-14 days.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

Ick isn't actually that bad.. it is easier to cure than alot of parasites and bacterial infections.. I have had things killing my fish in the past and not know exactly what it was.. if it were ick.. I would know it and know exactly what to do. Hope things work out for the fish. check to see if your plants are ok with a small dose of salt.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

It has been a long time since I had any ich in my tanks but this does not look at all like ich. I just took a look through the common fish diseases section of a book I have here and from the descriptions this looks like it may be an ulcerated area. 

"The appearance of ulcers has various causes. They can be considered as secondary conditions of infectious dropsy or as a symptom of existent tuberculosis. The distinct thickening of an area of skin is the first symptom of this illness. Later a white spot appears on the thickened skin, which becomes larger and larger and finally separates from the skin. As a rule, an inflammation appears in this place, whereby the red muscle is also exposed. This disease is almost impossible to cure in the aquarium. Thus, in this case as well, destroying the fish is the only thing that can be done, all the more so because other fishes can be infected."

If this is the only fish you have found so far with any sign of infection I think you would be best to destroy it and not take chances of it spreading to your other fish. At the very least I would isolate this fish immediately to its own hospital tank. At this point I wouldn't move all of your other fish into different tanks. The stress of moving and medicating them (especially medicating them based on guessing what they may or may not have) may create more problems than it solves.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

You posted about your apisto while I was writing my last post. Definitely take a close look at him too. He may be the source of the infection in the cardinal (if they were in the same tank). I doubt this is coming from any plants that you purchased. Agree too that ich is one of the least lethal fish diseases. It is very recognizable, thus easy to diagnose, and usually easy to cure if you get to it early on.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

The fish is already separated. The instant I saw it, I netting him. I have extra tanks running already so I could put him in a H/T immediately.

I just changed his water and added charcoal. He does not need the added stress of Rid Ich + when he doesn't need it.

Tuberculosis? Ouch! I hope not. Looks like I need to do some reading. I've only read about it in passing, but never paid close attention. I also need to get my apisto's spot photographed. I need to know what it is. I have a bad feeling it may be the same thing. Injuries don't remain unhealed for a month unless it's infected, and my apisto behaves perfectly normal.

Thanks for the help, everyone.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I took close ups of the Apisto. I can't tell for sure if it's the same thing. On one hand, it could be, but on the other hand, I don't think it has the same puffed out, rounded appearance. I also don't see the red veining, but these pictures didn't come out as well.

The shape of the lesion almost makes me think he lost a scale and it won't grow back.

What do you guys think? Same thing or different? Or impossible to tell?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I added a 4th picture of the lesion because it shows that the area is puffed up. Unfortunately, my loupe had water on it when I took this picture so it has a lot of artifacts in it, but it's the best I could do.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Looks like the same thing to me. Its hard to tell really but in the 3rd picture down it looks very close.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

looks like it COULD be the same, but im not sure. 

i dont think its TB. TB has a LONG incubation time (like monthes). so if it went from your apisto to your tetra, it would not have symptoms yet, but most likely all the fish would have it (in the tank, or because of the python, in all your tanks). if it is TB, GAME OVER.


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

i used to have this on a Cardinal, does not hurt the fish. dosing maracyn CAN help, but it does not really need to be treated much. over time the case should solve itself.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

thats if it is viral. though, maracyn will do nothing; might help keep away secondary bacterial infections away so the fish can focus on the virus, but the virus wont care about the antibiotic.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> TB has a LONG incubation time (like monthes).


I bought tetras at the same time I got the apisto. I don't think this particular tetra is one of them, but I'm not certain.

The tetra was in a tank in the far back corner of the store while the apisto was in their show tank right beside their cash register. So they shouldn't have been on the same filtration system; however, I suppose they could transfer it from tank to tank with their cleaning supplies.

Having said that, I haven't found anything in the pictures of TB that matches what the tetra has. And neither fish behave poorly. They both eat fine, no wasting away, no hiding in corners, no clamped fins, nothing. Just the spot. From what I'm reading about TB, by the time there are visible signs, the fish are pretty sick and show it.

But I'm certainly no expert on TB. I'm going to first hope someone sees the pictures and knows what it is or can at least confirm that it's not TB, if possible. 



> ...but most likely all the fish would have it (in the tank, or because of the python, in all your tanks). if it is TB, GAME OVER.


Oh, please don't even think it! :icon_eek: 

I have clove oil on hand. I may put the cardinal down and do an autopsy to see what's going on inside. From what I'm reading, if he has TB, it will also cause cysts in his internal organs.

Also, does anyone know if TB would create that spot on my apisto while still leaving the apisto in perfect health otherwise? I first saw his spot on 6-15. It's been 1 month, 5 days now. If that's TB, would the apisto be showing some kind of other symptoms by now?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I originally dosed Maracyn to my apisto, but after one round of treatment, I saw no affect at all. So I decided to not do a second round.

I also have some anti-bacterial and anti-parasitic food on hand. I don't know if either fish will eat it, but I don't guess it would hurt to try.

But, first, do most people think this is NOT a parasite? Or is that still a possibility?


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Do you have a microscope? Cause you cause solve it by just looking in it and seeing what is on the fish and if its a parasite or not. I dont think its nothing to be worried about to be honest and putting the fish down to do a autospy would be the last of my worry's with a few dollar fish.

Give it some antibiotics and watch the fish closely.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

No, I don't have a microscope. I've thought of getting one for a long time, but never did.

I'm not worried about losing a tetra. I'm more concerned with what's in the tank that can affect all my other fish. The only reason I would hesitate on an autopsy is because once the cardinal is dead, I can't try any meds to see what works, if anything.

What I want most is to try to get this identified, one way or the other.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, bacteria (like mycobacteria) ARE parasites. they devour living creatures, and depend on doing so. 
but it could be a protist. it dont think its an animal parasite, they are mostly worms, and that is NOT a worm (as far as i know).

mycobacteria (TB is a mycobacteria) are extremelly resistant to antibiotics. in humans, they give people at least 4 different heavy antibiotics, sometimes for YEARS. dose maracyn and feed antibiotic food if you want, but it probably wont do much to TB. like i said if it is (and i have no clue, i never had a fish with TB) game over.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yes, I was asking about animal parasites.

How can I determine if it's a protist? I know nothing about them.

The affect on humans is one reason I want to identify this. If that's what it is, then I have been exposing myself to it for a long time. And I definitely have cuts and scrapes on my hands, at times.


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## vance71975 (Jun 4, 2008)

Not a cure but if it Is a Viral infection i have an idea that might help speed recovery. Kent Marine along with an number of other manufactures sell products to help boost a fishes immune system. Two of the most recommended are Selacon and Garlic supplement they are added to the fishes food. Might be worth a try and A LOT less stressful than Medications! These are both used often in the Salt water end of the hobby as Salt water fish are very sensitive to a lot of medications that Fresh water fish handle just fine.

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~additives_american_marine.html

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewI...ives-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies~vendor~.html

There is the links for the products.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

???
never got any parasites on my fish, so i only know what i read and dont pay much attention to that. 

but its still rare to catch. most people are imuno-compromised that get it. still, its best to take it to a vet since some people THINK it may be. in the mean time (the next few day that you deal with your fish and wait for more opinions) just wear rubber gloves for maintenance in all you tanks.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is a nice little article on fish tb as well as other fish disease.


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## Guest (Jul 20, 2008)

@[email protected] said:


> ???
> never got any parasites on my fish, so i only know what i read and dont pay much attention to that.
> 
> but its still rare to catch. most people are imuno-compromised that get it. still, its best to take it to a vet since some people THINK it may be. in the mean time (the next few day that you deal with your fish and wait for more opinions) just wear rubber gloves for maintenance in all you tanks.



Every fish has a few parasites and plenty of bacteria inside and out its just a matter if they can control them or we have to do it for them. I am not sure many people think its TB I had only seen you bring it up so far that it could be.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

The question of TB came from this post from captain_bu. But looking back at the thread, I think he's the only one who mentioned it as a possibility. It seems most others don't think it is. I don't either, but I'm definitely going to check out that site.

I think it's best I wait for more opinions. I have this thread linked in my sig line (like anyone missed it?) so, hopefully, someone will be able to offer more info.

I'm not going to start adding any meds right now because I think it's a bad idea to medicate indiscriminately. Since the tetra has already had to endure Rid Ich + completely needlessly, I want to give it a rest from any other meds until I know what medication I should use.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

Re-read the passage again, it says ulcers can come from various causes and only that TB or dropsy can be considered as possible causes. It does not say that ulcers only come from TB or only from TB and dropsy. No one including myself has diagnosed this as TB but I do think visually it fits the description of a skin ulcer and does not look like a parasite. The spot on the cardinal does not look like an injury either. Still at this point nobody seems absolutely certain as to what it is and whatever it turns out to be it may be hard to figure out what caused it in the first place. It is good that you have a place to keep the fish quarantined and monitor their health. If they seem healthy and are eating well they may just heal up on their own.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I knew you weren't giving a diagnosis. More like offering a possibility that needs to be checked out. At least that's how I took it.

Thing is, I wouldn't consider this an ulcer. Ulcers are more like when the skin is eaten away. This is more like a cyst.

Also, from what I've been reading about TB, both of my fish are in too good of health in all other ways to be TB. TB infects the internal organs, creating all kinds of symptoms. But if you'll look, even the color on the tetra is vivid. Problem is, I don't know how long it takes for TB to infect the inside after there are visible signs like this on the outside.

So far, I'm not convinced it's TB. But it still could be a parasite; although, I think I'm leaning towards it being bacterial.

What's so odd is that my apisto has had his spot for over a month! If his is the same as the tetra's, I don't know what to think. Wouldn't a bacteria have caused more symptoms by now?

Also, these lesions came up very fast, or at least appeared to. It's not like I saw it growing slowly. That's why I thought my apisto was injured. It was too big, too fast.

It's harder to determine on the tetra since I have 21 in the tank. It's possible this started out small and got bigger without me noticing. I don't watch the tetras like I do my apistos.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

i recomend popping the cyst. if its benign (which it very well could be), no more problems will arive and it will heal cleanly. if it does not, then you have a problem, but it still might not be contagious.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

How would I pop it? I wouldn't want to do more harm to the poor thing. Maybe if I could get it to sleep with some clove oil, I could carefully remove it?

If nothing else, I'd like to know if it's hard tissue or liquid filled. Given how fast it came up, I bet it has liquid in it.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

thats what i think too. and liquid cysts are usually not harmful, but the liquid in the cavity is best removed in most cases (the only case i can think of where the liquid should stay is if you get cysts after a 3rd degree burn). 

you could probably try and catch the fish in a net, then just pinch it with your nails. if it doesnt pop readily, dont force it, since we arent sure what it is. 

NOTE: im not saying i know what it is, i have no clue. im just saying what i would do. i may be completely wrong.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm too afraid I'd hurt the fish too much if I tried it that way. I'd rather put the fish to sleep (not death) and pop it using a sterile needle. Or just wait to see how it progresses.

I'm still hoping someone will see the pictures and be able to offer a diagnosis, but that's probably not going to happen.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh no, this is not good. I just found one of my microrasboras with something similar. He's moved to yet another H/T. But he was in my 5g with my RCS colony! I've had him for going on a year.

I also can't count all the others. I think one other microrabora has died. I can only count 7 when I should have 8 (9 including the one I just removed). I can't find the missing fish's body.

I have more pictures, but no time to post them now.

I'm getting really scared.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, its contagious. which means its probably not benign (this could be confirmed if you can find the body and it has the same cyst, but the shrimp probably ate the body and the cyst isnt recognizable). well, its most likely not contagious to the shrimp, since they are in a completely different phylum then fish. 

i suggest you sterilize all of your tools, before using them again. dump them in bleach (strong dose, like 1:5; and leave it for a good half hour). let it stay in the sun too (not through window, outside so the UV can get at it), that way you put ozone depletion to use. you should also do that after every use, even in tanks that dont have affected fish, because most disease become contagious before symptoms occur. for your 2.5 gal, 5 gals, and 10 gals, you should use a bucket and gravel vac instead of the python. its tedious, but the gravel vac can be sterilized after use, the python is probably too big. 

well, at least the shrimp will probably be fine.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

What really scares me is that this time it does look more like TB. 

Sorry for the download time, but I wanted to keep these pictures as large and clean as possible to aid in a diagnosis.

Also, note that the fish was flopping around a lot and ended up in the carpet at one point which left him with a tiny thread on his face. That is not part of his illness.

When I get some more time, I will euthanize this fish and do an autopsy. I need to see if he has any signs of TB in his organs.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Bare with me, as I am having major computer issues today. I finally was able to see your pic after trying for over an hour:icon_smil ...did anyone think to say Lymphocystis? Or flukes? I am going with lymph though...


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Nope, that's a new one. Looking up info now. Thank you!


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## p3purr (Nov 11, 2006)

@[email protected] said:


> mycobacteria (TB is a mycobacteria) are extremelly resistant to antibiotics. in humans, they give people at least 4 different heavy antibiotics, sometimes for YEARS. dose maracyn and feed antibiotic food if you want, but it probably wont do much to TB. like i said if it is (and i have no clue, i never had a fish with TB) game over.




If you even suspect fish TB don't make skin contact inside the tank or the fish. Human TB is caused by the bacteria mycobacterium tuberculosis, fish TB is caused by mycobacterium marinum) but fish TB can cause skin infection in people. Actually game is not over with fish TB. I was at the 2008 Raleigh Aquarium Society (RAS) workshop this spring and had the pleasure of hearing Diana Walstad talking about TB. I'm not even going to try to give the highlights. 
"Mycobacteriosis- the Stealth Disease" by Ms Walstad contains very clear and detailed information on fish TB. It's long but well worth reading for anyone who keeps freshwater fish.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

If it's TB, I've been long since infected considering the first fish's spot appeared over a month ago, and I've had my bare hands in the tanks nearly every day (especially my 75g while setting it up).

Thank you for the TB link. I'm happy to read it. I want to know what this is.


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

Here is a link to what looks like a good resource for info about fish diseases.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/fish_palace/tropicalfish_disease_identification.html

The sections on Viral Infections/Tumors and unidentified lesions, growths and cysts (in the Miscellaneous Ailments section) look the most applicable to what I am seeing in your pictures. Notice the pinkish fish in the solid tumors section that has tumors that are shaped like the scales, similar looking to your apisto where it is hard to tell if it is just a scale missing. There is a sub link that discusses lumps and bumps that you may also find interesting and applicable.

http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article25.html


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Hmm..look up flukes just for S+G, those last few pics finally loaded for me. Flukes look like little potato chips under the skin.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

it MIGHT be fish TB. an early stage perhaps?
im not sure though (actually, i only think it should be recounted as a possibility in your sig). 
can we get a pic of the fish underwater?

if that is the article that was in TFH then i have read it. doesnt have to be game over, if you are willing to risk keeping infected fish. it had something about a UV sterilizer, it stopped the contagion, but i dont see how it would cure an infected fish. 

oh, and, Complexity, if it IS TB; stop bleaching your tools (if you are doing now). mycobacteria are not killed by bleach. they go into a hybernation-like state, and emerge from it later.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I just thought it beared mention that it probably couldn't hurt to startup a UV filter and let that fun for a few days. As a preventive measure, of course, since it won't cure any infected fish.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I've read the links everyone offered. The one about TB was very interesting. It claimed that the author, Diana Walstead, "cured" her tanks of TB simply by using a uv sterilizer.

My 75g tank has a uv sterilizer! It has since day 1. And I run it 24/7.

The more I look at all of this, the more I don't think this is TB. I won't truly know until I put down one of the fish and do an autopsy which I plan to do this evening.

The info from badmanstropicalfish.com is very interesting. And, yes, I certainly did see some tumors that looked similar to what I'm seeing on my apisto.

What really caught my attention was the discussion regarding bacterial infections causing "boils" of sorts which are filled with puss. The boil will eventually pop open on its own.

The spot on the tetra may be just that. It certainly looks fluid filled (puss). I'm wondering if the wound on the microrasbora is a site where a boil erupted and popped? That would explain the similar "circle" around the area and why the tetra has a big white spot that the microrasbora doesn't have. Or, perhaps, the disease isn't as far along in the microrasbora so the white puss hasn't collected enough to be as visible?

Clearly, I don't know.

What I feel very strongly is that I must first determine if this is or is not TB since TB can be a health risk to ME.

Once I can rule that out, assuming I can, then I'll consider this to be a bacterial infection as the next possibility.

It's too bad I can't find that half eaten guppy that died yesterday. It would be good candidate for an autopsy.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

not cured. only stopped further contamination of new fish. maybe if she dosed heavy antibiotics, she would cure the TB, but thats not possible in a tank because it will destroy the bacterial colonies (like the N bacteria), and in her tanks other bacterial colonies are vital. 

TB is a bacteria. 
hence if the fish have TB, they will have some of the universal signs of bacterial infection (such as pus, if they began to fight it).


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## p3purr (Nov 11, 2006)

@[email protected] put it better than I could  

How old is the bulb on your sterilize? It may need a new bulb.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Just a few months old. It's a new setup. Got it in January, I think.

I also just happened to open it up to inspect the bulb, and it's clean as can be. Didn't have to do anything. Just put it back together and plugged it in.

It's a 9w TurboTwist. Funny thing is I was thinking of moving it to my 20L and getting a more powerful uv sterilizer for my 75g. I know the 9w is supposed to be enough, but I generally over-do my equipment.

However, Diana's article claimed she used an 8w sterilizer on her 55g tank so I would think if that "cured" her TB, then my fish shouldn't be passing TB to other fish. Not that I'll use that as a definite diagnosis that I don't have TB.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, and as far as Diana "curing" her TB, I realize she didn't actually cure it. It's just much easier to type out than a long string of "stopped further contamination of new fish". But for those who may not have read the article, your clarification is good.


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## p3purr (Nov 11, 2006)

Complexity said:


> Oh, and as far as Diana "curing" her TB, I realize she didn't actually cure it. It's just much easier to type out than a long string of "stopped further contamination of new fish". But for those who may not have read the article, your clarification is good.


I have a lot of problems with composing messages so I can relate to shortening things.  

Since you were considering upgading to a bigger UV anyways it might be a good idea. It won't hurt to have one on the 20L to help if there's any accidental contamination from the 75 to th 20L.

I'd love to have a sterilizer even if it's just to put on for a few weeks when having a little problem that I want to try and nip in the bud before it gets worse.


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

What kind of flow rate do you have going through your UV sterilizer? When it comes to killing parasites and bacteria, slower is better. If you have it on a cannister filter output, you might consider either teeing it off with a ball valve or getting a smaller pump to run a slower flow of water through it.

Dave


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

It's on an Eheim Pro II 2128. It claims a maximum output of 277gph. While it's the largest in the Pro II line, the flow rate is much lower than my Rena XP4. So I don't know how to judge the Eheim's flow rate (low, med, high?).


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## Yassmeena (Jun 29, 2008)

Call the goldfish connection and ask them to speak to their goldfish breeder. I know it sounds strange, but I was at one point really interested in fancy goldfish. Apparently they get all sorts of diseases and their owner/breeders become very knowledgeable. I spoke to the breeder on the phone, cant remember his name though. Point is, he was very very helpful, and I think he might know what is going on if you show him pictures, and he may even tell you how to fix it. If I remember correctly his name is ironically Mr. Fisher.

http://www.goldfishconnection.com/other/faq.php#1


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'll definitely do it tomorrow (they're closed now)! I'm all for any resource I can find. Thank you!

I need to put my poor microrasbora down and then do an autopsy. While he's the smallest fish, his lesion is getting into the area of the eye so putting him down will be a bit of kindness to stop his suffering. And if I can figure out anything from an autopsy, then it might help other fish from suffering the same fate.


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## vance71975 (Jun 4, 2008)

I would start Soaking their food in Selcon And Kent Garlic Extreme right away. I cant promise it will fix everything but it will give them a boost to help them fight whatever the infection is That is If its an infection. If its a parasite well they wont help much other than making the fish healthier!


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## Yassmeena (Jun 29, 2008)

Complexity said:


> I'll definitely do it tomorrow (they're closed now)! I'm all for any resource I can find. Thank you!
> 
> I need to put my poor microrasbora down and then do an autopsy. While he's the smallest fish, his lesion is getting into the area of the eye so putting him down will be a bit of kindness to stop his suffering. And if I can figure out anything from an autopsy, then it might help other fish from suffering the same fate.


Well I wish you luck and hope you find answers. I can't imagine it's very fun seeing your fish become ill! :frown:


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## DaveS (Mar 2, 2008)

Complexity said:


> It's on an Eheim Pro II 2128. It claims a maximum output of 277gph. While it's the largest in the Pro II line, the flow rate is much lower than my Rena XP4. So I don't know how to judge the Eheim's flow rate (low, med, high?).


I would say if you are going straight from a 2128 into your UV, that is too fast. UV sterilization is all about contact time, and if you shoot the water through it you aren't giving the UV long enough to get anything done. All UV sterilizers should have recommended flow rates for various organisms. I'm not that familiar with the newer ones, but the older systems required either a slowed connection from the main filter or a small pump dedicated to the system.

Dave


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

What if I get a larger sterilizer? I'm trying to get info on that subject here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/70187-whats-main-difference-between-turbo-twist.html


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

well, if you have a CO2 reactor and a heater before UV sterilizer that might be enough, but i dont know much about them, since i never got one. 

after you are done autopsing the microrasbora, i suggest you freeze it (its no more disguesting then a fish you caught and didnt have time to gut yet). that way, if you find something you think is TB (or something else you dont know), you can make an appointment with a vet and take the body to him/her later.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

No reactor or heater on the Eheim. Just the uv sterilizer. I'm thinking of getting the 36w to replace my 9w.

I didn't think of freezing it.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

AUTOPSY REPORT:

I could not find anything that I considered a nodule or TB. Keep in mind I have no idea what to look for! But at the same time, I didn't see anything that appeared to be growths inside.

What I did find was that his gills were red. Remember he's a red fish? After being put down, he lost some of his color which then allowed the redness in his gills to be seen.

The area that was sticking out was his gill. Something had inflamed it.

I did not see anything that appeared to be puss. It did not appear that he had once had a cyst in that area as the bump was caused by his gill sticking out, not a growth on top of his gill.

I have not posted any of the pictures I took because I don't want to gross people out unless I know there's someone here that can determine what happened to him.

However, I'm going to rule this one as being different enough from the other two spots, especially the very clear spot on the tetra, that my microrasbora suffered from some other malady. I'll do a water change in that tank and keep a close eye on things. No salt or meds for the other fish due to the RCS colony in the tank.

So... I don't think this fish suffered from TB. And I don't think this fish suffered from anything related to the other two fish.

I will post links to the pictures if anyone requests it.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the gills are supposed to be red (i think). they have to have a lot of blood-flow to absorb enough O2 into the blood. people have pink lungs, and most organs are some shade of red.

could it maybe be a parasite?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Let me post a picture of his gills. I think you'll see that the redness is unnatural, but let me know if you disagree. Also, notice how inflamed the gill is on the bottom. That's what caused his gill to stick out. It was good I put this fish down as I believe he was close to dying and was suffering.

Picture of Microrabora Gills


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

It's getting worse. I just discovered that one of my torpedo barbs has dropsy!

What the hell is going on? 

I did notice a couple of fish with stringy white poop. I think that's usually caused by a parasite?


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

wish I could help, sounds like you're doing all you know how, though. Best of luck...


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

I meant to add something as well...
Here's the killing dose of UV light needed for certain organisms (mws/cm^2):

viruses: 15,000
bacteria: 25,000-30,000
algae: 22,000-30,000
fungi: 45,000
protozoa: 90,000

The lower the flow = longer the dwell time = more death.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Coleman, thanks for the added info. I just ordered a Turbo Twist X12 38w to be shipped overnight. I called to confirm that it should arrive tomorrow.

While I know it won't cure any sick fish, but if there is a parasite or whatever in the water column, it will definitely help kill it out to help prevent other fish from getting sick.

I found that I can use Melafix with the plants and amanos in the tank. So I'll be getting some of it today.

What's really got me puzzled is that I'm seeing so many different symptoms. Each fish seems to have something different from the other. I don't understand this.

Looks like I need to polish up on how to treat dropsy. Thank goodness I didn't add salt to the tank since that only makes dropsy worse.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Dropsy is a symptom. Means that a fish's circulatory system is shutting down. At the point that it's visible and the fish's scales are sticking out like a pinecone IME it's irreversible and just a matter of how _long_ before the fish dies.

There can be many causes, but typically a bacterial infection of some sort, and it's most commmonly associated with poor water quality (though I don't think this was probably an issue with your tank). 

Just from my personal experience with dropsy I think it can be an "old age" illness with fish; I've had a few old fish over the years in community tanks die from it with no other fish affected, and I think it was just they were old and this was they way they went.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, I'm familiar with Dropsy being a symptom. What I don't understand is why I have a fish in that tank that has dropsy?

A fish with something that looks like a missing scale. Another fish with a cyst. Another fish with something wrong with its gills. A 4th fish with dropsy. And a couple of fish with some stringy white poop. Why so many different symptoms? It's just not making any sense.

The other thing that never made sense was how the anubias suddenly melted. I've never heard of such a thing!

I'm wondering if there's any kind of connection?

I think I'm going to do a very massive water change this evening. Maybe 90% if I can. If there's something in the water making my fish sick, the more water I change out to clean water, the better. I wouldn't normally do this, but I'm really concerned. I'm afraid I'm going to end up losing all my fish!


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

FWIW I've had tremendous success with melafix in the past - I think it's a great product and would recommend it for sure; it made my friend's house smell so lovely....seriously!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think a water change is always good idea.

That being said, I also think more fish would be affected by now if the issue were a water issue...

An internal parasite of some sort would make the most sense, IF these issues are related. It's not all that common for internal parasites to be able to travel between species, however.

Have you kept an eye out for temperature fluctuations? That could be a common cause for weakening fish _and_ affecting your Anubias...

The other possibility is simply the law of averages. You have about 90 fish, and most of them are fairly new. May be that the source of each of these problems stems from exposure to issues before they arrived into your care, just the issues have now reached a stage where they are visibly having an impact on your fish. 4 sick fish out of 90 really isn't all that many, IME.


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

Can you trace your problems to the change of a practice"? I commented on your food thread that I went through the same thing with a "bad" batch of frozen hikari bloodworms. 

Fish presented with multiple symptoms bloat/dropsy/spots/lesions/red gills/etc etc and no change in tank practices or inhabitants other than the switch from one pack of hikari to the next. It was hell getting the outbreak under control, but the explosion seem to stop quickly after discontinuing feeding that particular pack of food. One other tank that I had used the same tank tools on, though not fed the bloodworms was unaffected.

I wrote 'bad" as I read that simply the high N content of bloodworms could result in some health symptoms (bloat/dropsy, etc) in and of themselves if the fish had altered their food preferences and were existing on an unbalanced diet. I really believe the food was contaminated.

I once lost a large portion of a tank of many saltwater anemone after feeding some contaminated frozen (human) seafood. 

After the two incidents, I prefer to feed either live that I raised or dry. I think poor frozen storage doesn't help the matter not withstanding the quality of the food they started with.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

oOo Kurt- I'd asked for clarification of your bloodworm experience on that other thread, and you just answered my question here. Yes, a bad batch of food could definitely impact a tank. 

I don't think it would explain the cysts and the lesion on her Apisto. Dropsy and white poop would be candidates, though. Red gills; maybe?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I did just switch to a new package of bloodworms. :icon_eek: I'll try to get some Omega One this evening and stop feeding the bloodworms. I know I've handed the bloodworms very well, but maybe they were allowed to thaw at the store before they put it in the freezer?

I'm having second thoughts of a very large water change. I just remembered... this pH in this tank is lowered due the CO2. My normal pH is 8.0, and right now, the pH controller is displaying 7.1 (I lowered it just this morning). Sooo... a 90% water change could shock the fish, making matters worse.

I've added some Epsom Salt to the barb with dropsy. I know the odds of him surviving are almost zero, but I am catching this very early so maybe there's a tiny chance. I have to try at least.

Which medicine would you guys recommend for dropsy? Again, I don't know if I'm dealing with parasites, bacteria and/or a virus, but there's certain something going on. I was at the point of saying this has to be a bacteria, but the stringy white poop says parasite. Maybe both? I'll definitely get some Melafix for my 75g tank, but I think I should use something more aggressive on the barb with dropsy. Or not? What do you all recommend?

About the best I can say is that thank goodness I have a plethora or H/T and I'm getting better at catching fish in a planted tank without chasing the fish or destroying the tank (the answer: use a really, really big net and patience).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Epsom salt is a magnesium salt, and will only increase the water hardness; that's not at all the same as aquarium salt. You want aquarium salt, pickling salt, sea salt, or kosher salt- plain old NaCl.

CO2 gives you an "artificial" pH reading; as long as the TDS in the tank are pretty much the same as your tap water then don't worry about the shift in your pH that's being caused by CO2. Just match water temperatures and go ahead with your water change.

Smaller more frequent water changes are always best, though.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Epsom salt is a magnesium salt, and will only increase the water hardness; that's not at all the same as aquarium salt. You want aquarium salt, pickling salt, sea salt, or kosher salt- plain old NaCl.


Not for dropsy. Dropsy is caused by something damaging the fish's kidneys to the point the fish is having kidney failure. Regular aquarium salt (NaCl) will require that the kidneys work even more which is the opposite of what you want. NaCl for a fish with dropsy will hasten its death.

I don't have the technical info as to how the Epson Salt helps, but it's supposed to help alleviate some of the swelling. It's not a cure by any means, but it can help the fish feel more comfortable.



> CO2 gives you an "artificial" pH reading; as long as the TDS in the tank are pretty much the same as your tap water then don't worry about the shift in your pH that's being caused by CO2. Just match water temperatures and go ahead with your water change.


Thanks! I knew about the TDS remaining the same, but I'm still learning how it all affects the fish.



> Smaller more frequent water changes are always best, though.


Agreed. But something just isn't right. Fish don't just suddenly get dropsy without cause.

I don't have time to do it right now anyway, but I can't help but think there's something in the water. All of these fish were fine. They were all quarantined for 2-3 weeks before adding them. I had no problems at all for several weeks, save for the apisto (which can still be due to an injury; I don't know). Then, suddenly, two fish have unexplained symptoms in the same week. That's not accidental. I just don't know what's causing it yet.

Maybe I'll do a 50% wc tonight and then another 50% tomorrow. That may be easier on the fish while still doing what I can to exchange the water for fresh water.

I'm just so glad the uv sterilizer will arrive tomorrow. If something is in the water, it should help kill it out.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The problem is you don't know for sure it's kidneys or what organ is failing in the fish.

You could try a human remedy and see if he'll eat some banana; potassium is a natural diuretic. Won't address the cause obviously but might help with the swelling.

Banana is also fish-safe food.


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

fyi- A while back when I went through this, I thought I read that a diet high in bloodworms can cause dropsy.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

KurtG said:


> fyi- A while back when I went through this, I thought I read that a diet high in bloodworms can cause dropsy.


I don't think I've ever run across that, but it would make sense. They're a great source of protein, but kind of like too much steak can lead to cholesterol issues.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

If it's due to overfeeding bloodworms, then that's very easily rectified. I'll have to do some checking on that subject.

LL, I hear what you're saying. I don't know what to do. I've always been told to use Epsom Salt, and I see it when I do a google search. But I also see people recommending NaCl, as well. I'll put that on my list of things to research better.

I decided to test my water just in case something was spiking or my bacteria was killed, making my tank cycle or anything. But all looks good.

Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 10ppm

I have not been dosing my ferts for a few days because of this mess, and I also added the hornwort which is growing like mad so that's why my nitrates are low.

But the tests (API FW Mater Test Kit — liquid with test tubes) don't reveal anything in the water quality that would be harmful. So that's not the cause. I didn't think it was, but at this point, I'm willing to check everything.

That leaves parasites, bacteria and virus. Any of those would be in the water. So big wc tonight, another tomorrow, and new uv sterilizer installed sometime tomorrow. And Melafix starting tonight. Anything else I can do?

Oh, I forgot... switch food to Omega One.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Let's see... you're covering some good bases:

You've isolated the obviously affected fish, so hopefully Melafix will address any bacterial that could still be in the main tank.

Water changes hopefully will address any sort of unknown/untested toxicity or buildups.

UV sterilizer will address anything that could move through the water column.

I still think feeding garlic might help. IPs are something that I'm not sure how effective Melafix is at addressing.

I'm a big fan of "natural food" remedies b/c they're less stressful on fish (as well as cheap and easy), and even if you've guessed wrong on the cause of an issue they're less likely to harm the fish than most commercial remedies.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have an old bottle of Kent's garlic. Would it be any good? I'm willing to get something else while I'm out, if needed. All these things are cheaper than the cost of the fish I'm losing and potentially can lose.

If I use what I have or get new, how do I use it? I think I'd soak the fish food in it and then feed it to them, right?


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## ColeMan (Mar 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> I still think feeding garlic might help. IPs are something that I'm not sure how effective Melafix is at addressing.
> 
> I'm a big fan of "natural food" remedies b/c they're less stressful on fish (as well as cheap and easy), and even if you've guessed wrong on the cause of an issue they're less likely to harm the fish than most commercial remedies.


I don't think melafix will do anything for internal parasites, but it won't do any harm either; 

Hey LL - I don't know much about fish diet, let alone dietary remedies - where did you get your info from? It sounds interesting and Id like to learn more!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Combination of experience (worked quite a bit with/in/around the medical field, kept/bred fish for 25+ years) plus I've gotten several aquarium magazine subscriptions for years that I love and read cover-to-cover LOL

I'd use fresh garlic. It's been a long time, but my fish ate it with no problem. On this garlic treatment I'm going based on Jack Wattley's discus column in TFH, but he said that he always had best results with fresh garlic over powders or liquids, and by getting the discus to eat bits of it either plain or mixed in with other food. You want it to stay in the digestive tract, so if you can get the fish to eat the whole bits of pressed garlic that would be ideal.

Like anything else, don't overfeed.

You might press a clove and try just a little bit in the tank to see first if they'll eat it. If not, then try mixing with flakes and see if that works.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Ugh! A trip to the grocery store just for garlic! Okay, I'll get fresh. What these fish make me do!

I'm about to leave so I hope I can find everything and get them started on the garlic. I'm going to hope very much that I can get the torpedo barb with dropsy to eat a little.


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