# PH problems



## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Stay away from any pH adjuster products. Are you using any CO2 injection? Your gH is a bit low.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

I am using my first planted tank here but....

I have kept marine tanks for many many years....

"If so what can I do, I've tried PH levelers. "

AVOID pH levelers and adjusters...I have found that they are more trouble than they are worth.

Agree wholeheartedly with Rex on this pt.

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: Hi Rex & Guttboy:

I'm not using C02 injection, and have also come to the conclusion that the ph adjusters are a waste of time. 

I suspect my problem is that the water has very little buffering capacity. I've read that crushed coral or a piece of limestone might help. What would be your best suggestion? 

I really appreeciate your help!

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

Now we are in my realm....CORAL!!!...heheh seriously though crushed coral has a decent buffering capacity. I used coral sand in ALL but one of my reef tanks with tremendous success. I have never tried limestone though.

What are your water parameters out of the tap???

The reason I ask is that your water parameters might change when they are in your tank...not sure what you are adding.

By knowing your TAP water (aka water you are adding straight to the tank) you can use that as a basis for starting to adjust the levels (pH, KH, GH).

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: 
Hi Mike:

Out of the tap the ph is 7.2, kh 3 and gh 2, I use start right to remove chlorine and cloramine and ACE to remove ammonia thats in the tap water and stress zyme to add the little bio germy guys.

Thanks,

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Hmmmmmmm,

Ok if you say that your pH "drops off the chart" are you saying that it is getting lower as in more acidic?

I would think that the plants would be using up the CO2 and thus causing your pH to rise slightly...just a guess.

What is in your tank exactly???? Have you put any driftwood in there that might be leaching tannic acid into the water??? Any rocks that might not be "benign" so to speak...aka not leaching anything into the tank.

With all things being equal....your pH should not be dropping off the chart like that unless there is a cause....be patient we will be able to figure it out.

In your next post...be very specific as to what is in the tank. How big? What plants? (size, number and health) Lighting? pH at night and in day? Same for GH and KH of tank. Type of substrate? how much? Any inhabitants (fish, frog, hippo...LOL)? Driftwood? Rocks?

This way the others can really help on whats going on. Rex is really good at this stuff by the way.

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:help: 

Hi Mike:

It's just a 10 gallon tank. I hope to have a bigger one, but am gun shy for now because I don't want the same problem, just to a magnified proportion . For now since I am cycling again, not much in the way of plants, a few bulbs is all. I do have a piece of driftwood in the tank, and tried removing it, with no help. Even tried putting it in a separate tub of water and tested everyday, it didn't seem to affect the ph. The substrate is flourite, and I have a few I think they are called egg rocks (white and rounded looking). The light is a regular grow light. For now there are no fish, but I would like to have Neons. I haven't tried testing both morning and evening, just in the evenings, I can if would be of some help.

I sure appreciate your taking time to help me figure this out!

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

No worries molly...

Now...how much does the pH swing...? you stated it went low? could it be the test was wrong? Were you using a high range pH test and it just dropped a bit below the bottom limit? My high range goes from 7.4 to 8.8...I have another that is 6.0 to 7.6....Just a thought.

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike:

I've been using the one that goes from 6.0-7.6, it drops to 6.0 or could be lower test won't go any further down.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Well we eliminated that theory! :bounce: 

Now then...There HAS to be something in the tank that is causing the water pH to change. How long from the time you put the water in on a change does the pH drop?

I dont think the start rite would be affecting the pH but try a sample with a cup and see once you have put all the additives in it as it would be right before you add it to the tank? Monitor it....this will ensure that those chemicals are not the culprit.

Right now I think it might be that your water has a poor buffering capability but that is just a guess.

I am going over to Roger Miller's house in a couple of hours. Hes a moderator on another board and a hydrogeologist. i will have him take a look at this and see what he thinks as well!!!  

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Molly..
Are you saying the pH of the water out of your tap is 7.2 and after it is in your aquarium it drops to below 6.0?

Mike


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Mike thats what she's indicating.

Molly...just got back from Roger Miller's house..he has awesome tanks! What he stated is that there is SOMETHING in your tank that is causing this pH drop. 

1) Could be that you are feeding the tank too much and something with the nitrogen cycle could be causing this.....oops read down no fish so I think you are not feeding it...

2) Is there any decay in the water from plants etc...?

3) Substrate?

But what he stated is that your pH wont just drop like that.

Will keep researching....

Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Too strange! Something has to be _super_ acidic to cause that to happen. 
Molly, tell us everything you have in the aquarium. Everything.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

There has to be something in the tank causing this. Peat or something like that. Even though the water is soft it would take a lot to crash the pH that far. I doubt it would be the rocks. There are a few minerals that could leach acids but I doubt anything as strong as it would take to crash the pH that far.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Rex I have to agree with you on that one...

Molly how long does it take the pH to crash?

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:help: 

Hi Everyone: 

Gee I really appreciate your help! Right now I'm in midst of cycling again, I took all of the water out cleaned the rock completely and put them back in last week. the substrate is Flourite, I have a piece of driftwood I took out thinking it was to blame but made no difference. I have some rocks that are I beleive called egg rocks white and smooth as if in a river bed I use or would like to as planters in the tank, they are "glued" together with aquarium sylicone. That has been aged for over a year now. 

One other note, I checked the kh and gh again today, now gh is up to 6 but kh is 1. p is still at 6.0. 

To give myself to satisfaction I went to the pet store today and bout a few plants (unknown) looks like a houseplant spider plant and water wisteria with red coloration. Also got some coral sand and put a handful in.

Of course, the folks at the pet store are just as confused with my problems, but I have no really good pet stores within 30 miles so I am dependent on Petsmart ond Petco employees. The guy at Petco suggested I use RO water, said he had heard "horror" stories from folks from Mansfield, and I am on the Arlington Mansfield border.

It's kinda sad when you walk into a pet store and all the fish don black bands on their little fins :-(


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly sorry to hear that! I just cant see water dropping that fast in pH....how long does it take again. THERE HAS to be something in the tank that is causing this...pH just does not drop that fast....again let us know how long it is taking to crash to 6.0 and below.

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike: 

It happens within 24 hrs of testing.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Wow....that is amazing.....and your tap water (treated with your chlorine remover) stays the same, doesnt crash?

BTW...check out the new pics I posted under the photo album....I have just put some plants and fish in the tank...its under Mikes new 100 gallon!

Let me know what you think...you will be the first to see it!


Mike


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Too freaky! What is that acidic. 
I would take the egg rocks out, and take the wood out. I would really try to figure out what is causing the pH drop before I added plants, crushed coral, anything. 
See if the pH crashes in your aquarium filled with water and Flourite only. Put some tap water out in a couple of bowls. Add your dechlorinator to one bowl, and don't treat the other. See what happens. I would then spend a couple of dollars and try filling the aquarium with those one gallon jugs of spring water. They are about 70 cents apiece. See if the pH still crashes. 
You need to be slow and scientific. Do _one_ thing at a time. Keep track (notes?) on what you are doing. You really need to solve the pH crashing problem before you go any further. It's a pain, but in the long run you will have a successful aquarium that will give you a lot of enjoyment.

Mike


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Mike,

I agree with you 100%. You have to be methodical to rule out certain things. 

Molly: Be patient...between all of us here and you keeping notes we will figure this out!!!!


Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:help: 

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate this! Actually I did try testing the water in separate bowls, one just plain tap water, the next with the Start Right chlorine/cloramine remover, one with Start Right and Ace (cloramine amonia remover), and one the driftwood, Start right and ACE, left them for 5 days and the ph stayed level. Thats when I decided to do a 100% water change, cleaned the rocks and start over with new filter medium (sponge). I hadn't thought of the egg rocks as a possible culprit, good idea! 

I think I'll repeat my tests, but in addition to the above do 2 more bowls, one with flourite, and one with the egg rock. This now brings me to another question. Since flourite is porous could it be possible that it has become contaminated by something along the way, and perhaps should be tossed out and replaced?

Thanks again,

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

Without going that far...do your tests and see how they come out...just ensure that you have alot of flourite in that bowl....also how much circulation are you running? 

Flourite could harbor something but I seriously DOUBT that it is causing the overnight crash.

Remember take notes...be methodical....


Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: 
Hi Mike:

I went downstairs to try to read the numbers on the filter, but no luck, it's an Aqua Clear filter intended for a 20 gal tank, I keep it a full force, along with an air pump connected to 2 airstones that are below the substrate.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Hi Molly sorry it took so long to get back but the swamp cooler pump bit the big one and had to replace it...that did allow my tank to get a bit warmer and WHAMO...pearling plants!

I remember from my chemistry days that by blowing in a cup of water through a tube you can change the pH drastically. This is the same principle a CO2 system works on...you know making carbonic acid...yada yada yada...

Anyhow...I dont think this is the case but perhaps all the bubbles may be having an effect on your pH....Unless CO2 was going in there I dont know what could cause the acidity to increase (pH crash).

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: 

Hi Mike: No prob, are you and your tank(s) cooler now? I was having major probs with Comcast today, no internet, no phone, no cable TV. 

Anyway, I tested my tank again, KH is still in the dumper, however the PH is now at 7.2. I have my test bowls cooking, we'll see what that turns up. 

Now I know I'm a long way off, but given the fact that PH has risen because I added the ground coral gives me a hope! I know that since I am cycling the tests can be skewed, amonia still at .05-.10 nitrite is dropping about .25 Nitrate is about 5.0.

There is one other thought that crossed my mind....we have big problem with Pharoh ants, the little tiny ones, they get into everything, wonder if after they do back flips into the tank mixed with the stuff I put in they become acid bombs???

Obviously, I'm stretching, but gee I wanna fix me prob!

Thanks again!


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

Your KH will probably remain in the dumper due to the fact it is poor coming out of your tap as well. Be patient...LOL....dont you hate that!

See how they all come out. Remember by adding more than one variable to the tank you cant tell which thing is causing what. Take it slowly.

BTW...I am glad to see that I am not the only victim of ComCRap....LOL.......

Take care...of to sleep for me!

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Nite Nite John Boy, Also Thanks for kickin butt and takin names. The Tiger Roars!


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: 

Hi Mikes and Rex:

Gee you guys are great! 

Well here is my test results today:

Tank first

ph 7.2
kh 3.0 (climbing)
gh 8 or 9 (son came in while I was counting so I lost count)
nitrite .25
nitrate 0
amonia .5-1.0

Bowl of Flourite, with no chemicals 
ph 7.6
kh 4

Bowl with egg rocks and no chemicals
ph 7.6
kh 5

I think I will let the bowls "cook" a few days to see what happens, if all stays level I'll add the Start Right and ACE, then monitor that.

For the tank I think a 50% water change would do okay around Wed or Thurs. (was going to do it sooner but the pet stores are completely out of the bottled bio germies).

I was going to set up another bowl with just water and a air stone, but that could goof up the tests on the tank, since I would need to cut the air flow in the tank by 50%

Ah with all the help you have been giving, I think I become something more than a fish exterminator  

One other note, I have two neighbors that have tanks, one a 50 gal with 2 chilids and a plcostomis (sp) his is fine, but the other has a 29 gal that had tetras, she lost all but one a few months ago, in a well established tank, with no previous probs. My husband suggested that something has gone astray with our water supply.

thanks again everyone!

Molly


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Molly,
What is "Start Right" and "ACE"?

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike:

Start Rite removes Chlorine and Cloramine, ACE removes cloramine Amonia, or so it says. (our tap water does test positive for amonia)


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Instead of using both chemicals, why not use one: Seachem Prime.
Best on the market in my opinion!

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Good plan, I was using Seacham Neutral Regulator, until I decided I was treating the symtom and the problem. BTW sorry I got your advise...after I added the crushed coral, may need to adjust the amount but gonna leave it cooking for the moment and see what happens, does tht seem like a good plan, or am I off on the wrong road again?


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

DONT GET AHEAD OF YOURSELF...LOL

Ok so from what I can gather you added crushed coral to the tank correct? has its pH value crashed?

The reason for not adding the coral is we are trying to determine what is causing your pH to crash. We need to eliminate all the possible causes.

From what I can gather here is a summary:

1) you have water sitting in glass overnight pH test out of tap and in AM
2) you have water sitting in glass overnight pH test out of tap with water treatment in....and test in AM
3) you have accomplished water change and have tested pH right after change and in AM ( USE BUBBLES like you normally would )
4) you have water sitting in glass with substrate...pH test and in AM


Ok record those values....

NEXT....if the pH stays up in any of those combos thats a good thing. If it crashes thats a good thing too because we are eliminating things.

If all the tests OUT OF TANK... your cooking ones are reading normal pH, an the tank still shows pH crash we start another set of testing.

1) Try a water change...then record pH...if it is normal for you wait another hour and test again....what is it reading? if still normal....run the test without the airstones pumping into the tank.

This will tell us if the airstones are causing the problem or contributing to it. Remember we have taken the reading with your stones running the night prior. So if the pH crashed this test will show if the airstones might be the culprit. 

If the results after this test show that the pH has crashed we can probably assume that the airstones were not the problem and you can rule them out.

See...this is a process of elimination but you have to start from a known quantity and eliminate...dont go adding coral, chemicals, etc til you diagnose the problem.

Hope that helps you out....GOOD LUCK  

mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

:roll: I have'nt done a water change yet.

heres todays results (identical to yesterdays) :lol: 

Tank:
Amonia .5-1.0
PH 7.2
Kh 3
gh 8
nitrite .25
nitrate 0 

Flourite bowl:
ph 7.6
kh 4

Egg Rock bowl:
Ph 7.6
kh 5

If any thing, the egg rocks seems to contribute to buffering capicity. One other consideration is heat. I keep the heater set on 80 in the tank, but obviously can't heat my testing bowls.

I'll do the water change either tommorrow or Thursday. (Wed. is my night to clean the dog run so I wear out quickly, not mention getting pretty gamey), and no I don't touch the aquarium after the dog run 

I'm patient, want to get to the bottom of this problem. 

It will most likey be month or 2 before I try to add fish again.

I think trying different combinations of things, flourite and egg rock, flourite and wood, egg rock and wood, well you get the idea, every combination I can come up with. I really do want to test the air stone thing though.

Thanks again,

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly your tank has plants correct? That might explain the pH being lower than the rest because the plants will cause the pH to drop at night right?

Hang in there.

mike


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

I once read that someone had bought florite froma store that had it in a bin, open, turned out the store cat had been using the bin as a litter box. Don't see how that could be it really, but just figured I'd toss that in.

Might be time to call the water department to see what they say.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike:

I never considered the plants, well theres one more test, or several more, in my combination scheme. I'm going to try to do a water change before the dog run today test the water before and then a few hours after to see what happens. Hopefully I'll have a report showing things staying level. (wish me luck).  

Thanks again,

Molly


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi anonapersona:

It wouldn't suprise me that a cat would use flourite as a potty, but I bought mine bagged from AZ Plants (something like that), it's a link from here. 

Good point about calling the water company, I thought about that too. Perhaps when the load gets heavy, they use alternate (a guess on my part) sources for water. Until this last go round I hadn't been testing the water before_ adding it to the tank, just after, so could be that one time the ph is fine, and then next time a different source has a way low ph?

Thanks for the great suggestion!

Molly_


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

One other thing that I've read about, is that for reasons unknown to you, they might need to flush the lines with something particularly strong, maybe they had to repair a break and dug the line up and got dirt in it, or there was a flood and nasty stuff got where it shouldn't. The goldfish list that I belong to maintains that you should test the water each time before you add any to the tank just to know if the pH is off. 'Course, fancy goldfish are the pickiest damn fish ever invented, likely to sit on the floor and pout if a whiff of nitrates or ammonia drifts by. I also read that rains affect surface water supplies quite a lot. (Lack of rain here just means the pumping of water wells creates additional subsidence!)


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Ya'll:

Wel won't bother with yesteredays, or todays pre-water chage tests they were all the same, but her is tap water tests and 50% water change tests:

Tap Water:

Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 7.6
KH 4
GH 6
Ammonia .5-1.0

Tank after 4 hrs:

Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Ph 7.2
gh 6
kh 5
ammonia .5-1.0

One bright note, I got some blubs from the local Walmart, (forgot the name), they have not only sprouted but one presented a "flower today" it grew to the top of the tank kinda looks crap claw but white, and califlowering lookin.

Anyway, thats my news still testing.

Molly














:bounce:


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

I didn't intend to say crap claw I meant "crab claw" also got the jumping guy in the wrong place..darnit! Sorry


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi anonapersona:

I hadn't givin the flooding or line breakage any thought..... great point, as you well know we have had few very wet seasons (I am in No. Texas). Not sure but I am a little concerned with the Nitrate level of untreated tap water at 5.0, everything else seem okay, well within reason.

Thanks,

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

The nitrate level in the tap water just means that when this tank gets going witht the plants, you won't have to dose nitrate like most of us have to. you'll have perfect levels just by changing water. 

I haven't really been following this thread, so I
ll just ask, are you adding something to lock up that ammonia? I suspect that it can be managed with ammo lock or something, or is that an artifact from chloramine treated water?


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_chlorine.htm

I stopped to review WetmanNY's SkepticalAquariist.com site and read up on water and also popped over the Chuck Gadd's site that he referenced on chloramine. I've added on of those links above, you probably ought to read the SkepticalAquarist site to whatever degree you are able -- it is the most complex information, more thorough and thus harder to really understand. 

I keep thinking that there is more on the SkepticalAquarist site that might help you understand your water -- couldn't find it in a quick read however.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi:

I've been using ACE to remove the ammonia. I'm going to visit the link you sent, and try to understand as much as I can . Thanks for the tip!

Molly


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## digger (Feb 18, 2003)

Some products that remove chlorine and chloramine contain Sodium hydroxymethane sulfinic acid. If you are massivly overdosing this stuff, it could cause your ph to drop.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Digger, I went to check the bottles, sure enough the stuff I use to remove chlorine and cloramine does contain Sodium hydroxymethane sulfinic acid. That could be it, I have been using one teaspoon at every water change (about 2 1/2 gallons normally) ACE doesn't list it's ingredients. So perhaps I should reduce water conditioner amount, or switch products, Momotaro
recommended Sechem's Prime.

Thanks!


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

It sounds like you are on your way! Good for you!

Start using Prime already!!! :wink: 

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike:

I'm going to get Prime tommorrow, the pet store I get my dog food at doesn't carry it so I didn't get it yesterday when I was out. I did look it up and the product description says it removes ammonia. I'm curious, does your water supply have ammonia in it (from cloramine) and does it successful remove it? The reason I ask is the ph neutralizer says it removes ammonia too, but it doesn't.

Ahh yes, I think we are getting close to solving this problem, I'm feeling really positive about it  

I am curious about what the test results will be today since I did a 50% water change yesterday.

Thanks again!

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly good to hear that your "lab work" is paying off. Hopefully you will get to the bottom of this soon....keep us posted on your results!

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Mike:

More than anything everyones help and suggestions are paying off, everyone here is just terrific!

I'll get my today results posted this evening.

Thanks soooo much!

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

ANYTIME! Thats what this forum is all about. I started here a couple of weeks ago and the infomation is INVALUABLE. I am learning how to fertilize this 100 gallon beast now. Rex is really helping me with that.

Take care will check back later!

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Oh I can't wait until I get get a bigger tank, I just drool over the big ones at the pet store. This place is terrific, and hopefully before too long I will be in a position to help folks too! :roll: 

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Be sure to read up on testing while you are trying to get through the SkepticalAquarist site. 

"Getting rid" of chloramine can mean just breaking the bond, letting the ammonia free to wreck your tank, or binding the ammonia so that it is avaiable to palnts and biofilter, but not harmful to fish, while it still reads as there on the test, depending on what sort of test kit you have, it is harmless. 

Some water conditioners state that if you have chloramine you also need to use the companion product to render the ammonia harmless. 

Easiest to just get Prime or something similar, being sure to treat outside the tank or treating the entire tank volume, not just the replaced water if treating in the tank. (Follow directions)


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Well more EXCELLENT help! 

I think digger got it, reason I say is todays tank tests are:

Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5.0
PH 6.4
GH 7
GH 3 
Ammonia .5-1.0

I know I need to put all this into a table, but I did notice overnight the Nitrate increased, the ph dropped. I did the usual 1 tsp. of cloramine/chlorine remover......now I see where I'm goofing (I think). 

Still will Prime remove cloramine ammonia, and if it's harmless but reads, how do I know whats safe and not? So you know of a test I can do? Guess you can see I am suffering from some confusion :? 

Thanks,

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Unfortunatly I don't really know which is which, but the common test, Nessler, I thnk, cannot tell you if the ammonia is bound or free, so in chloramine water that has been treated, you cannot tell, it just says that ammonia is present. 

The other test only reads the free (harmful) ammonia. I think those are dry tablet based tests, you'd have to search for that actual info, I'm really reaching for this, recalling what I've read, not what I've ever done myself.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi anonapersona:

I am using Nessler tests, I appreciate your input, gee maybe I need to get a degree in chemistry to have a tanks and not kill fish....just kidding. I think could be wrong is just to make sure no ammonia is present huh?

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Fishkeeping is a hobby, it is supposed to expand your mind as it shrinks your pocketbook.

If you want to know for sure, you'd have to get that other type of test kit, otherwise you can just hope that you've used enough Prime 

-- the directions for Prime says

use 1 ml (marked on dispenser) for 10 gallons of new water

with instructions as to when a double dose or half dose might be needed

says it is non acid and will not impact pH


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Oh it's more than diffentenly impacted the pocketbook! Do you know for sure it removes ammonia caused by the release from cloramine? :roll:


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Of all the companies out there I trust Seachem the most. When I look at the bottle of Prime and it states that it removes chlorine and chloramine I believe them. If you check their web site it also says it removes ammonia. It then goes on to say that it converts the ammonia to a safe non-toxic form that the tanks bio-filter can remove. So using Prime makes the ammonia non-toxic and available to the plants.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

From the bottle;

Removes chlorine, chloramine, ammonia, 
Detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, 
Provides slime coat

Prime is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime converts ammonia to a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tanks' biofilter. Prime may be used during cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more effiiently remove them. Prime also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime will not over-activate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

directions: Use 1 ml (top mark of enclosed dispenser) for each 40L (10 gallons US) of new water. for larger doses, note that 1 capful (5ml) will treat 200L (50 gallons US). (Note the 2 and 4 L container's cap is 10ml). this does removes approximately 0.6 mg/L ammonia, 3 mg/L chloramine, or 4 mg/L clorine. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If addding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is >30C (86F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

I must say, that's well written. It covers all normal situations and the abnormal situations.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Thanks Rex and anonapersona:

I'm going to get some Prime today and do another 50% water change.

 Molly


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Everyone:

I did a 50% water change, used Prime...nothing else, other than Stress Zyme (bio germy guys). After letting "cook" for 2 hrs here are my results:

Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
PH 7.6
GH 9
KH 3
Ammonia 2.0-3.0

I would imagine that those stats will change by tommorrow, since it was kinda early to do the tests. One thing that does confuse me is why the ammonia test would jump up, seems it should have styed at .5-1.0????

Thanks again!

Molly


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

No, the ammonia will show as present but due to the way the Prime binds it up it can't harm the fish. To accurately test for ammonia you would need a Nessler based ammonia test kit. Most common ammonia test kits will give a false positive when used with an additive such as Prime.


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## Steve Hampton (Jul 22, 2002)

Rex Grigg said:


> No, the ammonia will show as present but due to the way the Prime binds it up it can't harm the fish. To accurately test for ammonia you would need a Nessler based ammonia test kit. Most common ammonia test kits will give a false positive when used with an additive such as Prime.


Oops Rex, I think you have that mixed. It's the Nessler reagent that shows a false or high negative. What you need is the two step salicylate-type reagent test kit when using Prime, Amquel, etc. But, the major issue as Rex alluded to is that the ammonia is simply locked into a form of non-toxic ammonium that's biologically available for plants and the biofilter yet harmless to your fish.

Here's a link to the Amquel site, read the Contraindications for a brief outline of this issue.

Nessler verses Salicylate


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Slap me with a stick. I do have it backwards.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Thanks Steve and Rex:

The link you sent was very helpful. I don't have any fish in the tank right now, still cycling, so from what I read, this could possibly help the biological filter development? I will be testing again this afternoon & now of course, I need to make a trip back to the pet store to get a differnt ammonia test kit  

Thanks again!

Molly


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Everyone:

Heres todays test results:

Nitrite .25
Nitrate 0
PH 7.2
GH 8
KH 3 
Ammonia .5-1.0

Side notes:

yesterdays results Nitrite came up, guess dealing with the ammonia, of course now my tests are a bit incorrect huh? anyway ph dropped from 7.6 to 7.2, GH went form 9 to 8.

My thinking is I need to do another water change until I get 100% new water with just Prime, and of course get the proper test for ammonia now, or maybe a whole new test kit????? :? 

Thanks!

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

If you have any plant parts decaying , this will add to ammonia. That could be the slight change you saw, or they might have added more chloraimine one day for reasons you don't know.

If you have no fish yet, you can go a lot longer without worrying about the levels of ammonia nd nitrite. The whole concern about getting the Prime is to detox the ammonia and nitrite for the FISH. The plants love ammonia, locked up or not. We would fertilize with ammonium nitrate but it is so bad for the fish.

Watching the ph is more important now, IMO, as the biological processes are burning through the KH which buffers the pH of the tank. As the KH falls the ability to stabelize the Ph is falling and if the pH falls much it will harm the bacteria you are trying to cultivate now. So, that is the reason you will want to change water, to bring back that KH value.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Good point! Ah maybe I'll give up being a webmaster and become chemist...sorry, naw I intend to do a 50% change again tommorrow...and get a new test thingy for ammonia. I know we have not much buffering capicity in our tap water, which is whay I added a fist of ground coral, to help the KH, but also, I was adding the wrong stuff to remove chlorine and cloramine, which ended up adding acid... I think :? 

Guess I'm still confused!

Molly


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Molly, try to relax, you have been really smart to look carefully at all this now, before you've added fish. Do your best to study the chemistry, it is important. I find it ironic that even though Chemistry was the subject I enjoyed the least, along with History, those are the things that are now the centers of my hobbies. 

I would think that the acid would then dissolved the coral and balance the KH rather rapidly. Maybe it is not rapid, however.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi anonapersona:

Yep I tend to be a nervous norvus, dang it I want things right though, and get confused!

I got Prime, altough the nit wit at Petco cattioned me away from it and was reluctant to sell me the proper testing kit, but I went with the advise I have gotten here and went for it!

Having done two 50% water changes here are my new results using Prime and the new test equipment:

8/12:

Nitrite 1.0
Nitrate 20
PH 6.4
KH 3
GH 10
Ammonia 3.0

8/13:

nitrite 1.0
nitrate 20
Ph 7.6
KH 3
Gh7
Ammonia 3.0

Seems I'm all over the board with the water, one good note, I noticed today a new pet shop close (perhaps same water supply) also appears to be family owned. Top of their sign says aquariums and fish, so perhaps I might find someone that has the same local problems I have. 

Hopefully.....


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Ok, compare that 8/13 to the tap water that you did recently. That was nitrate 5, pH 7.6, KH 4, GH 6 or 7. So you are seeing a build up of nitrates now (normal), the nitrite is still positive (but will drop later), the pH is now = to tap, the GH is approaching the tap GH, ammonia is high but bound so we won't worry about it.

remind me, do you have plants and good lighting?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Off topic:



> nervous norvus


Nervous Norvus!!!
Do remember "Nervous Norvous", the musicain from the 50's???

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Yep I have plants, and lots of lighting, and lightning these days 8)
I know my tank is cycling & of course the massive water changes are slowing the process, thats cool, just want to get it right this time and not be a fish killer!

Heres todays stats:

nitrite 3.0
nitrate 20
ph 7.6
kh 3
gh 6
ammonia 3.0

One question, with using Prime, and the new tests, will the tests go to 0 when my tank is cycled? Stupid question I know, but then again, I am mom of teenager so I'm dain bramaged. Wear bith me...please :fish: 

Oh yeah I rember nervous norvous, wasn't he on Ed Sullivan????
Now I have a question, what show was Rona Barrett on? I've been trying to come up with that for days 

 

Thanks ya'll

PS Momenteto, you lose power


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

If your water contains chloramine then you will always show ammonia after a water change when using Prime. Unless you are testing with a Salicylate based test kit. And those test kits are hard to find. Even with all the very good stores here in Portland I was not able to find one.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Rex: 

Not sure if I have the Salicylate tests or not, the pet store said they were, but they are somewhat nitwits :stupid: . The new tests I got are Jungle Labs TK 400 for Nitrite/Nitrate and TK300 for ammonia. There is nothing in the details that specify what type of tests they are, and nothing on the website, so I emailed them.

Gosh I am frustrated with the local pet stores, eveyone I talk to them points me in a completely different direction, this one says this, the next contradicts it and says that, so I have just blown off all thier advise and am depending on this forum to fix my problems.

Well here are todays test results.....as accurate as they may be:

Nitrite 10.0
Nitrate 40
PH 7.6
KH 4
GH 6
Ammonia .5

If the test results are accurate, seems my tank is cycling right along now huh? Ahh and the ph is leveling for the moment  

Thanks,

Molly


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Are those the test strips? If so they are not what you want. One kit that I know works well is the Seachem test kit, kind of makes sense when you think about it. Many LFS don't carry Seachem test kits for some strange reason but they are inexpensive when mail ordered.


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

Molly,

Looks like your pH is not crashing any longer!!!! Thats great if thats the case....was it the chems you were putting in for the dechlorination?


Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

HI Rex and Mike:

Yep they are the test strips, after I specifically pointed out what type of tests I wanted, they were what I was told I needed by the clerk at Petco. A new pet store just opened, looks family owned, (hoping they are better than the two I've had to go to) I think I will check there for the Seachem test kit. If they don't have it, then I'll do as you suggested and mail order it. I guess until I get the right tests, I'll be paddling in the dark......oh well.

Yep Mike looks like it was the declorinator I was using, think it was digger that pointed out it actually contains an acid. After a 2nd 50% water change using Prime the ph has stayed level for 3 days, actually staying at the level of the water coming out of the tap. 

Thanks again,

Molly


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## Guttboy (Jul 19, 2003)

WHHHOOOO HOOOOO!!!!!

WTG....I knew we would get to the bottom of it. I am so glad you have it fixed now!

AWESOME!

Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Yep Mike, I'm REALLY happy! Figure I'll keep testing it through the cycling and if it stays level, then we've managed to lick it :bounce: 

Thank goodness for this forum! The folks at the pet stores have been dreadful in the help dept.

Everyone here is WONDERFUL!

Molly


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

There is a big difference in my mind between a pet store and a fish store. I'm very lucky that we have several fish stores here in Portland and one very good one.


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Yeah, me too Rex, unfortunately the nearest just fish store is an hour drive from here, unless it's during the week then I have to factor in for traffic so it makes it not really a very practical option. Ohhh well

Thanks,

Molly


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

PRIME!!


Mike


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

In my mind PRIME = PREMO!!!!  

Well today ph stayed level, heres my results:

Nitrite 10.0
Nitrate 40
PH 7.6 (yippee!!!!)
KH 4
GH 7
Ammonia .5

Still cycling, but gee the ph isn't going in the dumper :bounce: 

Gotta get a seachem test kit though...ew well life is good & I might be able to trade in my fish killer designation soon.

Thanks everyone!

Molly


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## Molly (Aug 4, 2002)

Hi Everyone: 

First part is for Rex, I had a response from Jungle products, turns out the Nitrite/Nitrate and ammonia test srips are salicylate and compatible with
Jungle(r) water conditioners. (hope that means with Seachem too)

Next are my test results today:
nitrite 10
nitrate 80
ph 7.6  
kh 4
gh 6
ammonia .5

Thanks again!

Molly

PS The prime applicator isn't the best, I discovered 1 ml=1cc, so since I do my own dog vacines I have a supply of syringes. I just removed the needle and used a syringe to dose my water conditioner......much easier to read and precise. syringes are easy to come by at feed stores, or if they won't sell them without the vacine, Foster and Smith is a great source.


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