# what causes curling leaves?



## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

anubias, some crypts, val nana tiger, dwarf sag.

anubias leaves are curling down

crypt leaves are curling in from the sides some are more drastic than others

vals grow pretty normal but some have a weird bend or curl near the upper portion

dwarf sag shows similar behavior as val nana.

any thoughts?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Without pics or more information, lack of any number of ferts, or low co2 would be my guess.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

You will need to provide pictures. Leaf margins can curl upwards, downwards and even become wavy. The tips of the leaves to can curl or even the entire leaf so pictures can help people here identify what is going on.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

here are some pics 

















ferts i dose are
2tsp k2so4 & 1tsp kh2po4 fri, sun, tues
.5tsp plantex csm+b sat, mon, wed
50% wc on friday morning before lights are on

lights run 8 hours daily
finnex planted plus @ 21" above substrate
substrate is safe t sorb
full fish load which gets fed a variety of food once a day


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

philipraposo1982 said:


> anubias, some crypts, val nana tiger, dwarf sag.
> 
> anubias leaves are curling down
> 
> ...


Hi philipraposo1982,

Do you by any chance have softer water where your live? I do and my experience has been that curling / cupping leaves are typically the result of low Mg or Ca; you might want to try adding some Seachem Equilibrium to your tank.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

water isn't soft, but i believe the driftwood in the tank might be making the water acidic
would this remove calcium?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

In keeping/w the same train of thought, don't you have GH/KH test kits ?
Now that I think about it I haven't checked mine lately and have changed 
the fert list. But my list contains 1/32 tsp MGSO4 and 1/4 tsp CaSO4 to
raise the TDS for both my 10g tanks. That proportion was given to me by Diana. The percent, not the amount in my 10g tank.


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## amcoffeegirl (May 26, 2009)

This is a great question.
My crypts are doing the same thing.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> In keeping/w the same train of thought, don't you have GH/KH test kits ?
> Now that I think about it I haven't checked mine lately and have changed
> the fert list. But my list contains 1/32 tsp MGSO4 and 1/4 tsp CaSO4 to
> raise the TDS for both my 10g tanks. That proportion was given to me by Diana. The percent, not the amount in my 10g tank.


i do have that test but i never really understood what the values ment
or where i needed to be.


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

For me it seemed to be a calcium deficiency. I did a healthy sized water change and all the new growths had no curl to them after that. All the previous growth remained curled, but eventually it all got pruned out.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

So you think my 50% weekly is not enough of a WC to keep calcium levels up?

I know my tap water is harder than my tank.

Bump: I will test GH and kh when I get home


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Something else I noticed and didn't put much thought into it until just now is how a couple other plants have been growing.

Bolbitis, this plant I got near death, I attached it the DW and waited. Sure enough a ton of new shoots come out and I cut the old dying ones off. The thing is the old dying ones were standing verticle as expected. But the new growth although healthy lookin, is growing horizontally almost flat.

Also have a aponogeton undalatus I think spelling is wrong but its leaves are laying flat too. 

Thoughts?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Your plants look normal. There is a normal degree of downward curling when plants are grown underwater and yours are no exception. Emersed and submersed leaf shape are different so perhaps you are noticing that difference. 

Horizontally growing plants is usually caused by good lighting.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Hm . So maybe I have nothing really wrong? Thing is both crypts and anubias and Val's all grow very well. New growths that are pretty common and healthy.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes the plants look healthy in the photos. I do not see signs of nutrient deficiency. 

On a different note, are you adding nitrates or do you have root tabs in the tank? I didn't see them mentioned in your fertilizing paragraph.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

because of my large fish load I don't dose any nitrates. I have found that at the end of the week I have a boat 20 parts per million nitrate. I do have root atabs that I madt up but I haven't really been using them. I was actually planning before the next water change to put a whole bunch of root tabs in.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Ah sounds good. As long as you have nitrates around you will be fine long term as well.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

So its been 5 days since the last 50% WC and I test GH and kh today in order to provide some additional info that might help explain what is happening if anything.


GH was 8drops. Says that means 160ppm while kh was only 4 drops which is 40ppm.

Does this seem good?

Bump: My MTS all died recently and their shells don't have points. Not one of them. All stumpy looking and dead on the surface.

Bump: Are these red flags for calcium deficiencies?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Most folks around here think of KH and GH in german degrees, not ppm. These tests are set up so 1 drop = 1 degree.

Thus you have 8 dGH and 4 dKH, both of which are fine, unless you are raising things that explicitly need hard water or very soft water. 

While it is possible your dGH is all magnesium, it would be rather unusual. You should have plenty of calcium around at those levels, although this is not proof-positive.

The MTS shells could be acidic water. What is your pH? Do you run CO2? What's the pH while the CO2 is on? Calcium in the water will help them rebuild their shells, but it is possible for acidic water to erode their shells faster than they can rebuild.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

No co2 or excel.I will have to test the pH tonight and let you know. I do have a lot of driftwood in the tank so I probably have lower pH than normal.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

philipraposo1982 said:


> Bump: Are these red flags for calcium deficiencies?


No.

Calcium deficiencies are very hard to get. Plants do not use much of it per week even in a heavily planted tank. With anything over 2 or 3 degrees of hardness your tank should be fine with enough Ca.

The snail shells are pitted because the CO2 you are injecting forms an acid and it eats away at their shells over time.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

Zapins said:


> No.
> 
> Calcium deficiencies are very hard to get. Plants do not use much of it per week even in a heavily planted tank. With anything over 2 or 3 degrees of hardness your tank should be fine with enough Ca.
> 
> *The snail shells are pitted because the CO2 you are injecting forms an acid and it eats away at their shells over time*.


I'm starting to see this as well, Ca tests fine. Is there anything to be done to help the shells at all?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Italionstallion888 said:


> I'm starting to see this as well, Ca tests fine. Is there anything to be done to help the shells at all?


Not that I know of unless you buffer the water or reduce the CO2. It comes down to a pH issue. Calcium becomes more soluble at a lower pH, so your only option is to raise it one way or another to preserve the shells. Though, for me plants > MTS, so I keep my CO2 high. You'll never be kill them all once they are in your tank.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I don't inject co2 or excel


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Understood... excel wouldn't matter, as it isn't an acid.

That said, if your pH is low normally, it doesn't matter if you inject CO2 or not.. Acidic water erodes snail shells, it doesn't really matter how it got there. Check your pH tonight and let us know. (which you already said you'd do).

I think zappins was jumping to the CO2 conclusion since at times it seems like almost everyone on this forum does it.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

ph is sitting about 7.4-7.6


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

Update:

Things I have changed since this post. Did 2 large PWC 2 days apart. Test phosphates which was OTC (above 5ppm). Adjusted dosing to a more reasonal dose schedule.
Changed my feeding schedule to every other day and lighter.

Still pumping the potassium for my hygros, not dosing kh2po4 anymore till I get phosphates at a 1-3ppm range. Reduced planted dose to 1/4 tsp a week. I also raised my planted + up another 3.5" now at 24.5" above the substrate.

Since these changes have been made the crypts have clearly be gain to unroll / straighten out. The anubias is not doing it as quickly but I need to refer to pics to accurately see the difference (will do this once lights on).

My first though is that the phosphates being sosososo high was the culprit.

Thoughts?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Could be magnesium that the plant's received with the recent large water changes rather than a calcium deficiency although plant's looked normal to me.
Target ranges for EI don't mean much to me ,except maybe provide a minimum ppm goal to prevent deficiencies.
Ton's of folks add much more without issues with plant's or fauna.
Without CO2 injection or excel, the CO2 in your tank is what it is and so long as nutrient's are un limiting, then that leaves only lighting to adjust which you apparently don't need to do judging from photo's.
I would not reduce any nutrient's ,but rather add a little of everything KNO3,KH2PO4,CSM+B and maybe a 1/4 tsp magnesium or Epsom salt in 75 gal once a week but then I am not interested in how little of the fertz can be used before deficiencies appear.
I take comfort knowing that many folks dose way more fertz than I with their high tech affairs and I see no benefit to reducing fertz to reach some particular ppm when adding more bring's better result's without worrying about algae,or if I'm 5 to 20 ppm over suggested target range.
Have never tested phosphates but I add about 3/4 tsp once a week in my 80 gal low tech.
tested nitrAtes a couple year's back after starting the KNO3 at 1/2 tsp once a week and 80ppm were recorded a day after dosing and 60ppm by week's end.
I then increased the KNO3 to 3/4 tsp once a week due to increased plant mass over time and no disaster's have happened.
I dose CSM+B twice a week in the 80 gal ,and I add 1/4 tsp magnesium for my water is fairly hard ,but tests do not tell me/you whether it is largely calcium or magnesium influencing the test result's.
I have also used way more fertz than I do now ,and other than wasting product for no measureable result's better/worse growth,no problem's with algae or the cardinal tetra's as well as rummy nose,diamond tetra's, cherry shrimp,corydoras.loaches,pleco's.
When I suspect a deficiency,, I add a little more of everything rather than aiming for some target range.
Hell even Tom Barr suggest's that the ppm target range for EI is nothing carved in stone and can/should be adjusted to suit the particular condition's/method.
My two cent's


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I agree with you that they are not a set value and need to be tweaked but I was dosing 51ppm of phosphates instead of the recommend 1-3 which is for high tech, where I was low tech.

This was extremely overdosing plus with heavy feeding and full stock like I have I can only imagine how high my actual value was.

I didn't suspect light because I have seen high tech techs with crypts and not have them be all twisted and rolled.

I know my planted csm+b was a little overdosing but not enough to cause harm so it really only leaves phosphates as the cause. Potassium dose of 75ppm ish remains and I am seeing improvements so we can assume the potassium is not the cause either. Again this points to high phosphates.

I just did a large PWC and will do another in 2 days. I am going to continue with 2x PWC a week till phosphates are back to 1-3ppm. I will post pics when lights are on so you guys can see the difference I am seeing.

Bump: In my tank of approx 60g of water I was dosing more than 3x your dose of phosphates. That's very substatial.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks for following up with this, now that the plants are looking better! 

Fish food is a reasonable source of N, P, and most trace minerals. 
If you have cut back on the KNO3, then yes, cut back on the KH2PO4, and the CSM+B. 
If you want to get really low on things then just dose a low level of potassium and iron. You have the 'test kit' for potassium: the plants! So dose K2SO4 to keep the plants happy. 
Use the NO3 test as a stand in for all the others, as long as the main source of NO3 is the fish food. 
As you start backing off on the fish food you may need to start dosing again. Follow the recipe, but perhaps dose only 1/4 as much, since it is a low tech tank. 
You might also think about dosing carbon, as Excel, or some other method. 

Per post #28: Do not just dose Epsom salt. This is magnesium, and plants need it, but they also need calcium. If you are going to dose Mg, then also dose Ca, unless you have tested and found an actual Mg deficiency while the Ca is fine. If the GH is too low, a combination of Ca and Mg is the right way to go. Commercial products like Seachem Equilibrium or Barr's GH booster are good, or make your own blend. 
Back to the original problem: A General Hardness (GH) of 8 suggests that the Ca and Mg are probably fine, so unless something shows up that makes us think a separate Ca test is needed, I would not dose anything for GH. Assume it is good. 

Some nutrients can be so high they do not allow the plant to pick up or utilize some other nutrients. I am not sure what they all are (which blocks which other one) so I would rather stay somewhere in the ratio suggested by the EI dosing recipe. Another source for this info about how much of each nutrient is needed is Diana Walstad's book 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium' page 78, and that whole chapter.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Nothing bad gonna happen from dosing Epsom salt Mg.
As I said earlier,I have fairly hard water judging from calcium deposit's on sink,and tub fixtures,washing machine fixtures,dishwasher.
So I chose to add some magnesium for my local water report for Buchanan county Missouri does not specify what minerals are contributing to my 12dgh water.
Been adding it for a couple year's now.and plant's are thriving thank you .

Bump:


philipraposo1982 said:


> I agree with you that they are not a set value and need to be tweaked but I was dosing 51ppm of phosphates instead of the recommend 1-3 which is for high tech, where I was low tech.
> 
> This was extremely overdosing plus with heavy feeding and full stock like I have I can only imagine how high my actual value was.
> 
> ...


 
As I said,,I too have dosed way more of everything but when no measureable difference was noted,I began to scale back
until I noticed discomfort from the plant's.
I dosed full on EI for nearly a year as though my tank was high tech and began slowly scaling back to where I am now.
Uptake by my plant's crypt's,anubia,water sprite,anacharis,just was not there in NON CO2 tank with low light.
Actually have a bit more light now, and am watching the plant's closely to see if I may need to bump back up .


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