# low tech tank not flourishing



## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

I have a low tech tank

35 gallon hexagon 24" tall. 
HOB filter 250 gph

Light
2- 23 watt 6500k cfl
1- 23 watt 5700k cfl

Plants
Water lettuce, java fern, java moss

Fish
1 Black Moore
12-14 ghost shrimp
3 tiger nirite
7 long fin danios
3 otos
3 cherry shrimp

I also have drift wood in the tank.

My problem is that my plants just aren't well. The water lettuce roots are spindley and the leaves just aren't as green as they should be. The java fern and java moss growth is stunted. 

I do a 5 gal water change once a week. I also dose flourish comprehensive 1-2 times a week. 

Nitates stay pretty close to 20ppm. Ph is about 7.8.

What am I doing wrong. I was thinking it must be a micronutrient deficiency.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

I think you have a co2 problem. Are you using any form of co2?


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

greaser84 said:


> I think you have a co2 problem. Are you using any form of co2?


No, I wanted it to be low tech. Is the problem I have to much light? Or do the plants I have need supplemental co2?

I forget to add, I also have a airstone. My substrate is just normal aquarium gravel.


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## 00camaro16 (Mar 7, 2014)

I had better luck growing my plants once I raised my light a bit. But they were growing just super compact.

But low techs are slow growers. Thats what to you wanted just comes with it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

How long do you keep your lights on? And like camaro stated, low-tech tank plants grow pretty much slower than medium-high tech, so it takes time.. Any pics of the stunted plants?


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

00camaro16 said:


> I had better luck growing my plants once I raised my light a bit. But they were growing just super compact.
> 
> But low techs are slow growers. Thats what to you wanted just comes with it.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk


I expect slow growth, but this is diffrent. It looks unhealthy, and the wl looks yellow green and the roots look frail. Even in a low tech tank they should still look healthy.

I read for cfl I should be pushing 2.5 wpg, Im right at 2 wpg. I leave my light on for 2 hrs in the morning and 5 hrs in the evening. Do you think I could swap one of the 23w bulbs with a 30w? Thats about 2.2wpg otherwise the next size up is a 42w. I could do 42w x 2 that would get me up to 2.4 wpg


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## Roshan8768 (Mar 18, 2009)

rthomas529 said:


> I expect slow growth, but this is diffrent. It looks unhealthy, and the wl looks yellow green and the roots look frail. Even in a low tech tank they should still look healthy.
> 
> I read for cfl I should be pushing 2.5 wpg, Im right at 2 wpg. I leave my light on for 2 hrs in the morning and 5 hrs in the evening. Do you think I could swap one of the 23w bulbs with a 30w? Thats about 2.2wpg otherwise the next size up is a 42w. I could do 42w x 2 that would get me up to 2.4 wpg


That right there is probably the problem. I would run your lights for 8-10 hrs continously during the day


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I suppose everyone has their own definition of low tech.
I have T5 and Excel/PPS in one 10g tank and still consider it to be low tech.
Bet there are many on here who wouldn't.
The other 10g is closer to low tech as it has no Excel but does have PPS Pro.
This tank is right at 3WPG though. The Fissidens are dark green as is the Java Fern.
I do have a limited amount of GSA in there and you may get this if you raise it much.
How far from the bulbs to the sub. This I would think to be your main issue.
Water Lettuce gets CO2 from the air. Pictures of these plants would go a long way to help with this.
BTW is there a glass between the bulbs and the Water Lettuce ?


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> I suppose everyone has their own definition of low tech.
> I have T5 and Excel/PPS in one 10g tank and still consider it to be low tech.
> Bet there are many on here who wouldn't.
> The other 10g is closer to low tech as it has no Excel but does have PPS Pro.
> ...


There is no glass between the tank and the light. My light sits right ontop of my tank so its about 25" to the sub, but I dont have anything growing in my sub. The java fern and java moss are grown on the drift wood, at the farthest point from my light is only 16".

I am not necessarily opposed to excel. It just makes me nervous because im new to planted tanks (ive had fw aquariums for almlst 15 years), I would be really sad if I killed my fish or inverts. Yes I do have an attachment to my creatures. So anyway. If I can get my plants to grow without it I would be happier.

Also the reason I had only run my lights 7 hrs a day was I had an algae growth that had gotten excessive. I have sjnce gotten under control. So ill start a 9 hr light cycle today. Do you think I still need to raise the wpg?


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I see people buying expensive UV units to get rid of algae. I guess depending on what kind it is or in one case a person had a reason they needed to keep the lights on for long hrs per day because it was a display in a store so was on from 8A.M. till 10P.M.
They HAD to have the UV unit. But how many times could just using the light less hrs hae done the job ?
Just saying I would try what doesn't cost before I tried what did cost. Including not using the Excel. The tank I have it in has 100PAR and might be covered/w algae were it not for the Excel so not pushing it, just mentioned it in conjunction/w that tank.
I almost forgot, are these bulbs horizontal or virtical ?
Using them horizontal cuts the light by almost 50%.
Also I think your tank could use some Tetra FloraPride. You didn't mention any Macro ferts and Pride contains some Potassium(the fish food contains Phosphates) but for a 35g you would need about 20ml per week.
I can't find the thread I want right now but check this one.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98529&highlight=nutrient+deficiency+chart
Without a picture of them and just guessing on what you described it sounds like it may be iron deficiency instead of lack of light.
I'd try the free(9hrs a day) things first and then decide about changing the bulbs or adding nutrients. But whatever you do use it for like 3 weeks first without any other change or you can't tell which one worked.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> I see people buying expensive UV units to get rid of algae. I guess depending on what kind it is or in one case a person had a reason they needed to keep the lights on for long hrs per day because it was a display in a store so was on from 8A.M. till 10P.M.
> They HAD to have the UV unit. But how many times could just using the light less hrs hae done the job ?
> Just saying I would try what doesn't cost before I tried what did cost. Including not using the Excel. The tank I have it in has 100PAR and might be covered/w algae were it not for the Excel so not pushing it, just mentioned it in conjunction/w that tank.
> I almost forgot, are these bulbs horizontal or virtical ?
> ...


Ok well this is some great info! 

My lights are horizontal, but I did some searching and cant find anything other than speculation. I can find no fact that mounting them vertical is better.

I use flourish comprehensive which doesnt have potassium (it does say its derived from potassium chloride) is this not sufficient for potassium? It also has iron FE 0.32% is that not sufficient either?


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## JP55g (May 11, 2012)

Here's horizontal vs vertical example:


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

I guess that takes care of the CFL thing.
.32 on the iron may be enough, but without a picture the low iron is more guess than 
a diagnosis. And asking about the glass was to see if drying out may be the reason on the floating plant(s). Drying out from the light I mean. No plant that I know of can tolorate being 2-3" from a light bulb.
If you have changed the light to 9 hrs then wait and see what it does after 2-3 weeks.
With three bulbs you should have enough PAR.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Raymond S. said:


> I guess that takes care of the CFL thing.
> .32 on the iron may be enough, but without a picture the low iron is more guess than
> a diagnosis. And asking about the glass was to see if drying out may be the reason on the floating plant(s). Drying out from the light I mean. No plant that I know of can tolorate being 2-3" from a light bulb.
> If you have changed the light to 9 hrs then wait and see what it does after 2-3 weeks.
> With three bulbs you should have enough PAR.


Do you think I should move my fixture up 2-3 more inches, or should I wait to see how they do with the 9 hr light cycle? Its hard to get a descent pic of the water lettuce leaves. Ill try this weekend.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Nutrients are missing. Even java fern should do well in low tech.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

mistergreen said:


> Nutrients are missing. Even java fern should do well in low tech.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


 Lets assume we know I have nutirents missing. What is the best way to find out what I need. Im already dosing with flourish comprehensive. I can tell you I have hard tap water, and at one point I had my municiple water report card. I cant remember where I got it, but there is no iron at the tap. Flourish comprehensive adds some though.

What am I supposed to do start dumping chems in my tank till I get it right. Thats like unlocking a door with a shotgun.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Flourish is pretty low on the macro nutrients needed to grow plants. You need nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. If you want to stick with the liquids, pick up the Seachem line of these ferts. Though we need pics of the plants to make any clear conclusions.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> Flourish is pretty low on the macro nutrients needed to grow plants. You need nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. If you want to stick with the liquids, pick up the Seachem line of these ferts. Though we need pics of the plants to make any clear conclusions.


How do you like to dose your macro nutrients. I picked seachem for convenience when I first started, but im willing to try something else. 

I will try to get pics up this weekend.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

rthomas529 said:


> How do you like to dose your macro nutrients. I picked seachem for convenience when I first started, but im willing to try something else.
> 
> I will try to get pics up this weekend.


I use dry ferts since they last longer and they're cheaper in the long run. If you want to make your own liquid ferts from scratch, look here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=647697


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

*Water Lettuce pics*



Monster Fish said:


> Flourish is pretty low on the macro nutrients needed to grow plants. You need nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium. If you want to stick with the liquids, pick up the Seachem line of these ferts. Though we need pics of the plants to make any clear conclusions.


These are the best pics I could get. It's hard to tell but the leaves are yellowing. They look almost splotchy. The picture of the roots is pretty obvious there's something wrong. They're so spindly and frail looking.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

sorry I forgot


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Just double your flourish dosing and see what happens.
Don't expect to see results right away. Low techs are slow growing.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Your dwarf water lettuce looks fine IMO. The splotchyness could probably signal a potassium deficiency, given that your nitrates are around 20 ppm. Being close to the lights and having access to atmospheric carbon dioxide gives water lettuce the ability to utilize large amounts of nutrients. The frail roots could be be an indicator of less than ideal conditions. How strong is the flow on the surface of your tank. Water lettuce doesn't like strong surface current.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> Your dwarf water lettuce looks fine IMO. The splotchyness could probably signal a potassium deficiency, given that your nitrates are around 20 ppm. Being close to the lights and having access to atmospheric carbon dioxide gives water lettuce the ability to utilize large amounts of nutrients. The frail roots could be be an indicator of less than ideal conditions. How strong is the flow on the surface of your tank. Water lettuce doesn't like strong surface current.


I know my water lettuce looks ok in the pic, but in person you can see how yellow they lookand some of the leaf edges look mushy. Close to the center the leaves are pretty pale.

The water lettuce doesnt get knocked arounf at all. Just enough surface movement to circulate the water column. 

I am going to dose for potassium, and possibly iron. I assume my phosphorus(fish poo) should be ok and I know my nitrates are solid. Do you guys just dose for iron and potassium according to the instructions or do you actually test your water? 

I know out of the tap I get no iron and as someone above mentioned flourish comp doesnt have much pottasium. I have hard water so im going to assume my calcium and magnesium are ok for now. Ive never had problems witb my snails shells growing.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> I use dry ferts since they last longer and they're cheaper in the long run. If you want to make your own liquid ferts from scratch, look here:
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=647697


Where do you buy your dry ferts? What is a good online source?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

rthomas529 said:


> I know my water lettuce looks ok in the pic, but in person you can see how yellow they lookand some of the leaf edges look mushy. Close to the center the leaves are pretty pale.
> 
> The water lettuce doesnt get knocked arounf at all. Just enough surface movement to circulate the water column.
> 
> ...


I don't test the water. I go by plant growth. The only limiting nutrient in low tech tanks is potassium from what I've seen with my own tanks. If you're moderately stocked and you're feeding your fish, you should definitely have nitrates and phosphates in your water. The only macro you have to dose is potassium. Iron is necessary but with low tech tanks, it isn't used as quickly when compared with a high tech tank with pressurized CO2 and high output lighting. So you only need to dose a little bit.




rthomas529 said:


> Where do you buy your dry ferts? What is a good online source?


I got mine from nilocG on the forum. Pick up some potassium nitrate, potassium sulfate, potassium phosphate, and CSM+B and that should cover your macros and micros.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> I don't test the water. I go by plant growth. The only limiting nutrient in low tech tanks is potassium from what I've seen with my own tanks. If you're moderately stocked and you're feeding your fish, you should definitely have nitrates and phosphates in your water. The only macro you have to dose is potassium. Iron is necessary but with low tech tanks, it isn't used as quickly when compared with a high tech tank with pressurized CO2 and high output lighting. So you only need to dose a little bit.
> 
> 
> Thanks thats exactly what I needed to know


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Im sure this will make you all shake your heads. As a stop loss I pulled my water lettuce out and threw them in a 5 gal bucket with some water and liquid fert I have for house plants and put a light on them. Ill keep em there over night then rinse them off and throw them back in the tank. This will hopefully take some nutrient demand off my tank until I can get some potassium and iron.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

It seems that your CFL bulbs have no reflectors, just a shiny flat background? If that is true, you are very unlikely to have enough light to grow plants.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Hoppy said:


> It seems that your CFL bulbs have no reflectors, just a shiny flat background? If that is true, you are very unlikely to have enough light to grow plants.


I think with all this different info about cfls I might just switch to t5 or led. The aquarium world has no love for cfl. Which is kinda funny because I use them all the time. Im actually growing a lemon tree and baby tears, which but need a ton of light and I have no issues.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

I use CFLs for almost all my tanks and I grow my plants just fine. You just need decent reflectors.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> I use CFLs for almost all my tanks and I grow my plants just fine. You just need decent reflectors.


When you say reflector are you talking about the metal dome utility things, or a reflector that fits in my hood? Any recommendations where to look?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

I use the aluminum dome reflectors sold at Home Depot and Lowes.


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## rthomas529 (Jun 26, 2014)

So far the changes I've made are Increasing lights for 7hrs to 9 hrs on, dosed for potassium, and dosed for iron. I woke up this morning and noticed marked improvement in my water lettuce.
Then I tested my nitrates 0ppm. So now I need to start dosing nitrate and phosphate. Im already feeding my fish as much as their little hearts desire. Im not sure if I could get many more fish in my tank.


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