# A Caridina cf. Propinqua Journal



## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Anyone else?

I have one little guy that has turned nearly black! He's camouflaged pretty well against the driftwood. Been trying to get a good pic of him but just unable to at this time.

* EDIT *

Figured I would just go ahead and turn this post into a journal. We'll see what happens.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

yep, I do! They do that when about to spawn. Unfortunately they are low form breeders


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Yep...unfortunately.

Would this then be the female by chance? I've been watching for a saddle on them and have yet to see one. They are still young yet but should be getting close.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I rarely see one saddled, but yes, in my experience the females are the ones that turn brown. 

I have one that is 4cm, just HUGE and she never berries.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

What are the parms of their tank if you don't mind my asking?


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I have them in tap water with cherries. 7.2, gh 4, kh 4


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And my project officially gets under way:


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

you trying to figure out what level of salinity to raise the larvae in?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

gonna try.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

#2 found today:


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## Jaggedfury (Sep 11, 2010)

Wow, they look like they carry triple the amount of eggs than CRS and other shrimps! I might have to get into these shrimps soon lol.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

They do carry a lot, however, just like cherries and CRS, they drop quite a few along the way


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

One things for sure, I won't be suffering from the lack of zoes when they are ready. Here' the latest find:









This is now three berried females. It's interesting as the first one looks to only have half the amount of eggs as the last two.

Lets get some parms:
pH: 7.4
Temp: 77
NO3: 10
GH: 6
KH: 4
TDS: 139

Picked up a small repti habitat. Looked like it was a gallon in size but 
turned out to be a bit short. Would really like to have 1 gallon rearing tanks for the testing. Guess I'll have to use a couple of the repti ones. Will begin getting that set up shortly.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Microalgae and other equipment now on order. Figured I'd have a little more time to work with though. 

Will start playing with mixing the salt water to get the salinities I want to start working with.


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## Finalplay10 (Jun 29, 2010)

Not too familiar with these guys. Almost look like Red Tigers in your pic. Orange Sunkist shrimp eh ... I'll have to do some research. If your going to put the effort into messing with salinity with these guys any chance of you trying to breed amanos ? Obviously not the same requirements but if you have the space why not


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Finalplay10 said:


> If your going to put the effort into messing with salinity with these guys any chance of you trying to breed amanos ?


I'm seriously contimplating that as well since as you mentioned, I will already have the setups and such for it.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

How are you going to hatch the eggs...I thought they needed salt to hatch, but if she is in your freshwater tank, and I am not sure but I doubt they can survive in the salted one, how do you intend to get the eggs from one to the other??? Only reason I ask is I also have these and thought I had a couple of babies hatch on me, but maybe they were orange cherries as some thought that might have gotten in on some moss etc.

My females are dark brown (ugly color actually) whereas the others are tangerine in color, but the funny thing is I saw a saddle on one of the tangerine ones???? Ive since moved them into a bigger tank, so they can roam a bit more. 

They are soooo neat a color and quite big. Here is pic of mine..in my tank!









So would like to follow up on what you are doing...as I too would like to breed them if at all possible, just because they are so rich an Orange and being a larger type shrimp you can always see them in the tank.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

janftica said:


> How are you going to hatch the eggs...I thought they needed salt to hatch, but if she is in your freshwater tank, and I am not sure but I doubt they can survive in the salted one, how do you intend to get the eggs from one to the other??? Only reason I ask is I also have these and thought I had a couple of babies hatch on me, but maybe they were orange cherries as some thought that might have gotten in on some moss etc.


The plan is to move the females to a small hatching tank after a couple of weeks. Once all the eggs have hatched, I will move the zoe into a salt tank. This is the gray area so I will be testing with various salinities throughout the course of this project. I'm setting up a couple of small rearing tanks so we'll see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

janftica said:


> My females are dark brown (ugly color actually) whereas the others are tangerine in color


This is an odd one too that I'm sure one day I'll discover. I had two that turned really dark. They are lightening up back towards the orange side. All my females are bright orange.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

Great look forward to your updates.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Check of the tank today reveals (6) berried females now. The other three have about as many eggs as the first one. My first thought was that they started dropping eggs. But then I found the others still holding a ton.

Starting to work on my salinity formulas.


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

These orange shirmps are not the same as "Orange Delight" right? Cuz there are somebody on AB and eBay selling "orange Sulawesi shrimp" and in the description is a copy and paste of the Planet Invert's Orange Delight Shrimp info... so it confuses me.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Not orange delight, which is a sulawesi species. I believe it's Caridina sp. "Orange Delight". This is caridina cf. propinqua.

Both from indonesia though.

The trade name on these is "sunkist" shrimp


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

NO EBAY LINKS PLEASE

Ah okay cuz the above shrimp looks like the Caridinia propinqua shrimp, but the description is descrbing ORange Delight. So I got confused. Them sunkist look nice, but too bad they are low form


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting description. The female carries between 10-15 eggs.

After looking at it more, the pic in the ebay auction isn't the same that I found on other sites for this shrimp.


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## Eden Marel (Jan 28, 2010)

Yeaa, it looks like orange and kinda like your pics


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Starting to formulate my salt mixes for the breeding tanks. Will start with 1/4 salt to 1/2 gallon of water and go from there. Breeding tanks are just shy of a gallon which should be good. 

Have almost all the necessary components for growing the Phytoplankton. I have four specimens that I'm ready to start growing. I'm just waiting on the Micro Algae Glow to come in and I'll be good. Specimens are sitting in a dark, cool spot waiting.

All (6) females still carrying. A couple of the ones that had smaller amount of eggs looks like they dropped some. Should have a fair amount of zoe to work with still.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I have 2 gallons of medium made up. 

The first should be close to sea water at 35PPM ~ 1.026
(mix was 1/4cup + 1tbsp salt to 1/2 gallon water)

The second will be my upper limit on brackish side at 17PPM ~ 1.012 
(mix was 3tbsp salt to 1/2 gallon water)

Now I'm not familiar with making salt/brackish water so these numbers may be a bit skewed because doesn't temperature play a factor in this?

Once the Micro Algae Grow arrives, I will aerate for 24hrs and retest.


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## Banana (Aug 12, 2010)

whoa congrats on the berried shrimp! I've been reading that only females make it to the lfs, but apparently there are males in the mix. Anxiously watching your thread for updates since i'm interested in breeding these guys too! none berried, one giant dark one i bet he's getting old, some light orange, some reddish orange. i wish i remember the link, but i read on an article that a way to transport the young would be just to capture a male and female and put them in a separate tank so they mate in the tank. once the larvae hatches, you can remove the adults and slowly increase salnity. I'm not sure if it's good to capture the females now that they are berried though since they might drop eggs? As to how much, i'm not too sure, but a forum in singapore had the number 1.001. They are fed phytoplanton til 2-3 weeks, then they can eat the micro-organism foods. Once they turn into shrimplets, you can just move them back into freshwater and they will not mind the change at all. That's about what i remember. Do you know how the larvae look like when they are hatched? I have these wiggly little white things in the tank on the glass but I believe they may be more likely nematodes than larvae hahah. (but i am hopeful)


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting about the LFS. Good thing I acquired them through an importer. ;o)

Micro Algae Grow arrived today. Aerating the jugs now. Should start growing phytoplanton sometime tomorrow evening.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Running into some issues getting the aeration set up. I have quite a bit of O2 tubing from when my father was with us and thought I could use it. It is a bit smaller in diameter than the normal tubing but thought it would be ok. Got the rig all set up and nothing. Changed out manifolds....nothing. Changed from a 10g pump to a 40...nothing. Getting very upset. Found some old tubing and swapped it out, that worked. Adjusted the other tubing as well and now both are aerating. Guess this O2 tubing for the canula's is just too small. Poo. It's quite a bit to let go to waste. Maybe I can find some alternate uses for it.

I may have miscalculated the hatching date too. Only (4) females now carrying eggs. Drat! It looks like the first round might be a wash. 

Phyto still going to need at least a week to get going and that won't start until tomorrow.

We'll see.


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## Banana (Aug 12, 2010)

Edit: didn't see the latest post. Carry on.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i just got some of these shrimp from germany. i would love to see pics of your setup for the breeding tanks to give me an idea on what to do. the lady i got mine from said she does heres like this, http://caridina.japonica.online.fr/English/Elevage.htm . i am subscribing to this thread and will post my pics here if that is ok with you james0816. working together might help out if you prefer i can start a seperat one also


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

wicca27 said:


> i just got some of these shrimp from germany. i would love to see pics of your setup for the breeding tanks to give me an idea on what to do. the lady i got mine from said she does heres like this, http://caridina.japonica.online.fr/English/Elevage.htm . i am subscribing to this thread and will post my pics here if that is ok with you james0816. working together might help out if you prefer i can start a seperat one also


Don't mind at all. Information sharing is the best way to gain knowledge. I am though contimplating changing this tank around a bit. It just never performs like the others for some reason. I'm using Flourite and the plants just seem to sit and stare at me and ask "Do you really want me to grow?".


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i have been using miracle gro organic potting soil with pool filter sand as a cap and i like it


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

ok well here are my orange shrimp in their new home and they seem to like it. i have a couple with what looks like saddles so we shall see soon what is going to happen


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well, I didn't get everything set up in time and all the zoe were a wash for this round. I knew it was going to be a tight time frame. They berried up much quicker than I had anticipated. Will definately be ready for the next go round.


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## Banana (Aug 12, 2010)

james0816 said:


> Well, I didn't get everything set up in time and all the zoe were a wash for this round. I knew it was going to be a tight time frame. They berried up much quicker than I had anticipated. Will definately be ready for the next go round.


oh no! will def continue to watch your thread! on a side note.. mine turned blue. did any of yours turn blue??


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> Well, I didn't get everything set up in time and all the zoe were a wash for this round.


Sorry to hear that. Hopefully you have everything in place for next time and a little wiser. :icon_wink Good vibes sent your way for next time.


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## Cocobid (Feb 25, 2007)

Nature.. I find it always fascinating this shrimp for instance lives in fresh..but in order to reproduce requires salt. One might wonder if what ever the evolution process was if something in their DNA triggered that salt water might purify keeping them healthy and allow more micro organisms to be present for feeding their young. Or simply tides rolled into the inlets where they originated from and part of their development was brackish water conditions. 
Whatever the case is ..... fascinating.
Good luck with your hatching!!!!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Banana said:


> oh no! will def continue to watch your thread! on a side note.. mine turned blue. did any of yours turn blue??


Not a blue color but definately a deep orange to brownish color. I have two that are still kind of dark. I thought that they may be the males, but I don't think the sex has anything to do with it.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i have heard that soft wate will make them oranger so you might have hard water. would be interesting to know what your water perams are to find out if that plays aroll in it


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water is very soft actually. I'll get a new set of parms tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Round 2 officially begins today. Found (2) berried females. One is holding a ton of eggs and the other about half as much. Now, by my calculations, I will leave them in the tank for just under 2 weeks before moving them into their hatching areas. 

Will be getting the zoe tank going tomorrow.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

good luck and keep us posted i have yet to see a berried female but then again im not sure how to sex them yet lol


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Phyto is now curing. I'm having some reservations as the cultures are pretyy light. They should be ok but we'll see. Here's my set up for this round of testing:

Seawater at 1.026/35PPM. In this bottle, I added 10ml of Dunalliela Salina.

Brackish water at 1.014/19PPM. In this bottle, I added 10ml of Nannochloropsis Oculata.

Each bottle then got 1ml of Macro Algae Grow.

They are sitting under a light (not sure of the wattage as I didn't look yet). I just wanted to get it started. Slow rolling with air pump.

Back in the shrimp tank, three ladies are now carrying eggs. Looks like the same pattern as last time.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It's early yet but phyto not showing any growth signs just yet. It's only been 1 day. I may just have to add a bit more to the cultures but we'll keep an eye on it. I misjudged my calculations on my culture station so will have to get more materials. This will enable me to culture all (4) phytos. I'm starting to think about starting them in a set medium. Probably 1.014. I'll have to play with the numbers a bit to calculate the salt to water ratio during the tests.

There are now (4) berried females. Definately following the same pattern. I expect the other females will be berried by Sunday.

Getting ready to make some more salt water. Once the phyto is ready to split, then rearing tanks will be established.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Progressing well as far as the culturing medium. The Nannochloropsis is starting to take hold. The Dunalliela is still not showing. Will give it one more day before I give it another shot.

No further berried females in the tank like I thought there would have been. One of the females is turning the dark color. I'll try and figure that one out later.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

*Phyto update 01-Nov-2010*

As you can see, the Nannochloropsis is taking hold. 

The Dunaliella is a no go. Those spots you see in the pic are contaminates. Not sure how they wound up in here. Will be scrapping it and starting a fresh batch tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Restarted the Dunaliella today. The starter culture is really light in color. Not really sure it is very viable. I doubled the amount of culture to start with to 20ml.

The Nanno continues to get greener. I noticed particles floating in this jug too but since it is growing, I'll leave this one alone. I'll have to try and determine when to split this one. I think it needs to mature for a few more days yet.

Should still be on target to test both salinities out.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

how things going i am hopin to find eggs myself soon


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I just got back from checking on them. Would you believe that I missed them again! I'm wondering if she actually dropped them instead of hatching as it should have been next week by my calculations. Hmmmm....I'm going to have to rethink my strategy. Think next time, I'll the fems stay in the tank for 1 week and them move them.

On another note, almost everyone of them molted last night. Exo's all over the place. I'll also be splitting my Nannochloropsis this evening too. Still nothing from the sea water culture. Not too happy about that.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well my project just has all kinds of speed bumps in it. Forgot to update this. 

Either I miscalculated the date or the ladies dropped their eggs. [scratches head]

Going by the first cycle, I thought I would have been good to go. The ladies lost the eggs a week earlier than expected. Soooo...as much as i didn't want to do it, I think what I will do next go around, will be to seperate the females after the first week of egg development. Didn't want to keep them isolated for so long.

Dunaliella culture still a no go. I'll be ordering fresh cultures today. Which reminds me that I need to check on the other two specimens to see if they are still viable as well. Yikes! Forgot about them two.

The Nannochloropsis has been split and two bottles now culturing. By next week I should be starting to refridgerate some for future use. I should also start looking to see if there are any reef keepers that may want a fresh source.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Scrapped the Dunaliella. The second batch didn't take off either. So, needing a pure salt phyto, I started two new cultures: Isocrysis Galbana and Tetraselmis. Ordered a fresh culture of Dunaliella and will start it when it arrives. Not really sure I want three pure salt cultures going at one time but will think that over when the time comes. Brackish setup will be ready.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Phytoplankton's in the sea water are starting to grow. That's a good sign. Will be harvesting/storing the first batch of Nannochloropsis this weekend. If I read correctly, I can store it in the fridge for about a month. Not sure if I would keep it that long though. Will need to find some reef keepers that want some fresh cultures.










No berried shrimps as yet but keeping an eye out. I'm thinking of picking up a couple other species since there will be an abundance of phyto. Haven't decided just yet. I know I would like to track down the Ninja shrimp to add to this project.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok....we're ready for the third attempt at this. I found a berried female today. Plan will be to keep her in the tank for 1 week and then isolate her. The question will be about other females that may get berried during this time.

All phytos are growing nicely. I will be able to conduct both brack and sea tests this round.

- crosses fingers -


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

So far we have two volunteers for this round of testing:










This little lady is working over a plant floating up top:


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think they are toying with me. Went down to check on things this morning and I'll be darned if both females didn't drop their eggs. Very discouraging. Going to have to do a round of testing to find out if anything changed. Not even a week after developing. Hmmmm....

Three others are saddled so I'll be patient and just wait for the next round. Be nice to at least get the second phase of the project for once. ;o)


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Disregard. I found both berried females. Not sure how I missed them earlier. I counted all the shrimp and didn't see the berries the first time. Maybe I wasn't fully awake just yet. 

Feel much better now.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Tried to construct the Phyto culture station and slightly miscalculated for my needs. That and it seems the height is just a bit short. Will increase it just a tad and it should be good to go. 

Fresh Dunalliela Salina sample should arrive on Dec 2. I'll get that going just as soon as it arrives.

Found another berried female today.

I would like to come up with a better way to house the females while in isolation. Right now it will be just a small critter keeper and and air stone to keep a slight circulation going. This will result in me doing constant water changes. I would like to come up with something that I can keep in tank which will keep the water fresh and at the same time hold the zoe in without them getting into the main tank. But that's for another day.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And the Phytoplankton Station is now operational. I cannot take credit for the design as I found it on a Reef site. It was bigger than I was thinking so I had to rearrange some things around. Looks like it will do serve it's function just fine.

Here it is assembled. I still have one station to add to it but I'm waiting to start another culture before bringing it online.









And here it sits under the 45g tank. This was the initial setup prior to installing the light and air pump.









Fully functional. Cultures from right to left:
Tetraselmis in 1.026 salinity, Isochrysis Galbana in 1.026 salinity and Nannochlropsis in 1.014 salinity.









I need to tidy it up a bit and adjust the tubing. The rigid tubes are held in place with rubber grommets. I may investigate a little more compact design if I can find a couple PVC fittings.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Dunaliella Salina arrived today. Added a starter culture to the Phyto station. Starting this culture at 1.014 salinity to team up with the Nanno.

This weekend the gals go into isolation until the eggs hatch. We are definately all set to take it to the next level.

Now we wait.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

looks good i dont know if i have 2 kinds of shrimp or even male and female of my orange shrimp cause all mine have sadles and has been almost 6 weeks and no eggs yet. is there any way you could get a pic of a female for me so i know if i have one? pics are great i wish you the best of luck


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## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

Cocobid said:


> Nature.. I find it always fascinating this shrimp for instance lives in fresh..but in order to reproduce requires salt. One might wonder if what ever the evolution process was if something in their DNA triggered that salt water might purify keeping them healthy and allow more micro organisms to be present for feeding their young. Or simply tides rolled into the inlets where they originated from and part of their development was brackish water conditions.
> Whatever the case is ..... fascinating.
> Good luck with your hatching!!!!


That is actually pretty interesting. Nature is beyond us.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It is a very interesting thing if you actually think about it. I understand (or at least think I do) the concept of the brack/sea water as the zoe get washed out of the inlets by the currents. What I don't understand, is why they need the salt to morph and then again, how do they know it's time to "get the heck out of dodge" and head back to freshwater?

Fascinating in deed. You need salt to grow and to morph into a regular shrimp or you'll die...you need freshwater to actually live or you will die in the salt.

I'll try and get some pics of the adults this weekend.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

All (3) berried ladies continue to do well. I forgot to snap pics today. One thing I would like to do, is come up with a better isolation area. I was thinking of one of those betta habitats but not sure that will work. I don't like the small confines. Maybe just set a few of these small critter keepers.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I think they need the salt water for the sterility, minerals and abundant food source. Over the aeons of evolution, they've become physically dependent on it.

That's just my hypothesis though, haha


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Talk about determination. Grrrrrr. Decided that I would go the the dip and pour specimen containers and a very good call it is. Came home today and one female had managed to get out of her isolation. And needless to say, her eggs hatched!

So here's the story. After I find she had escaped, I then decided to immediately move the other lady out into one of the new containers. I filled it with water and then transfered her. While getting it arranged, I noticed some weird things on the glass. Closer examination revealed ZOEA! Kewlness!

Been spending the last hour trying to find what I could in the tank. Using a big dropper, I would suck them out of the tank and place them in the new container with the female. Which might be a bad idea in itself if the other lady doesn't drop her eggs tomorrow.

Not sure how many I was able to find but it wasn't that much so far. Around 20 or so. Will go back down shortly and see if I can locate more. They should be good for one more day then they take the salt plunge.

Took some pics but not all that great. Will try again.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

*Update 15-Dec-2010*

Quick morning check of the zoea this morning and all looks well. I didn't notice any losses over night from the ones that were captured. I did find a few more floating around in the tank and went ahead and grabbed them out and placed in isolation. They will be washed out to sea today.

I tried to get some shots last night of them and this is about the best I could get at the moment. They are so small. I'll try to snap some more before moving out to sea. You can just make them out as they almost look like arrows.










Second female still holding. I've observed something with these guys. When they are first carrying eggs, the eggs are green. When they are getting ready to hatch, the color fades to a grayish color.

I'm going to estimate around 40 or so zoea in there at the moment. This morning, most of them where in the same corner as pictured above.

Times running out on the remaining ones in the tank. Hopefully I will be able to find alot more today and get them moved over so they at least will have a fighting chance of survival.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Oh did I fudge up! Think I instantly killed all the zoea while washing them out to sea. Dumb me, I put fresh water in the tanks and needless to say, I didn't let it get warm to room temp before transfer. What an idiot! Just got in a rush and didn't pay attention to detail.

I'll go back and check on things but I don't think it will do any good. I'll empty them and reset.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It turns out that it's not as bad as I originally thought. Just the sea tank looks to be wiped out. That was the one that had fresh water. The brack tank seems to be ok for the moment with the zoea still floating around in the current. I'll catch them moving from time to time.

I'll reset the sea tank today and move over more zoea if they are still alive in the freshwater. I looked in there this morning and might be around 20 or so still in there.


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

Yay zoea! Congrats!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Last night as well, I pulled out more zoea and added to the sea tank.

Second female's eggs are hatching as of last night. Checked this morning and looks to be 100 or so (rough guestimate of course) zoea in the isolation container. She still had a few under her but would anticipate them being gone by this afternoon. Will move her back to the main tank then. 

These zoea will stay there until Sunday at the latest.

Check of the salt tanks and I still see zoea floating about. The phyto plankton seeming to settle a bit much on the bottom even with the air flow. May want to try and do something else about that. But in the mean time, I just use the dropper to get movement on the bottom to stir it up again.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

An observation

- Sea Tank: Nothing. No signs of life. After two batches of zoea. The first one admittingly may have been keeper error. The second should have been good. I'll clean out the tank and make one more attempt at sea water.

- Brack Tank: Good progres here. I only could find one zoea that didn't make it at this time. I still see many floating around.

Further observations:

- The zoea don't remain in a constant floating state. They will settle on the side walls.

Here's a shot of the fresh zoea that hatched out last night/this morning:









- The phytoplankton should be stired up a few times a day. With the low circulation in the salt tanks, it tends to settle on the bottom. I'm using a big dosing dropper to dispurse the sediment. Seems to be working fine so far.

Here's a shot of the salt tanks: (Brack is on the left and Sea is to the right)









- Back in the main tank, another female berried up nicely. She's packing a ton of eggs.


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## ren (May 19, 2010)

wow talk about sticking to it well good job dude ive been following this for a while keep it up roud:


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Sea tank was cleaned out and reset. I added a combination of Iso and Tetra phytos this time.

More zoea were added to both tanks. I didn't do anything with the brack except stir up the bottom and add some more Nanno phyto. Hefty amounts of zoea added. Not gonna spend a whole lot of time trying to count so we'll just say (2) dropper fulls. 

Back to the sea tank, it was the same. (2) droppers full of zoea added. Adjusted the air flow a bit to slow the current down just a smidge.

Observation:

To catch zoe, place the isolation container in darkness. This causes them to bundle up with each other at the bottom instead of free floating. Once the light source is added back, they start to slowly float to the top and hit the current. I only leave it dark long enough for them to congregate. Maybe it puts them in a "sleep" mode.

I currently have the isolation chamber on black out again to catch more for transfer.

Found another berried female today. She's only holding about half as much as the other one.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Observation: Sea water needs to be ruled out at the early zoea phase. Recently added zoea have perished. They don't last long at all in sea water. Tank will be reset, again, tomorrow and we'll drop the salinity to lower end of the spectrum. I'm going to shoot for 1.005 which was my original number I was looking at when I started my research.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

There are now (3) berried ladies in the main tank. Awesomeness! Lots of zoea to play with in the future.

Speaking of zoea ... sea tank was torn down and reset at ~ 1.005. Now I give an approximate value in that the fresh medium was made up at that level. However, my phyto cultures are at 1.026 and 1.014. I added a few tablespoons of each as well as the freshwater that the zoea came. Think I got the remaining zoea from the freshwater out. All those went into the low salt tank.

Brank tank continues to do well. Have only seen a couple zoea that look like they didn't make it. But for the most part, all are still floating in the current.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's and odd thing. The zoea in the lower salt tank seemed to have perished as well. Very, very interesting. Maybe they were too old when I moved them and just didn't quite have the strength to carry on. I'll check it again this evening and see.

I will try this salt level once more with the new batch of zoea.

Plus note: Rotifers arrived today. Culture will be started either this evening or tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And we're growing....


















Don't have to strain the eyes so much to see them now. Going to try and clean up the bottom of the tank a little bit tomorrow and add some fresh water. While not necessary, I'm going to see how they react to it. Plus add a fresh coarse of phyto.

Over in the low salt tank, there is promise. I managed to locate (2) floaters. Definately makes me believe it was an age thing that lead to the others not making it.

I've decided that I'm also going to create a freshwater test just to ensure they actually need the salt to survive at this stage.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Reset both salt tanks. The brack tank wound up going sour. A couple of thoughts come to mind:

1) changing of the water as I did. May not have been a good thing. Need to find a better way to clear the bottom or just increase the circulation. Don't want to over do it as I'm pretty sure the zoea might be a bit on the fragile side at this age.
2) Temp. Which this one I am exploring more closely. Room temps seem to be in the mid 60s where they are located. The light really isn't bringing the temps up any. I'm looking for an alternate spot at the moment which would provide some additional heat for them.
3) Food source. The water stayed a nice green tint with the Nannochloropsis. I'm not sure how big the rotifers get if they would be too big for the larvae or not. I have the rotifers culturing just don't know as to how well the starter culture was as they were a "resting" culture.

One female hatched her zoea out last night and there is one in the tank that is hatching earlier than calculated. Found some zoea in the tank. She is now in isolation. Two more females are egg laden.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Test #2 at low salinity level has begun. There wasn't a whole lot of zoea from this hatching so the test group will be small. I'm only going to focus on the low salinity for this group with the small size. I'll go back later this evening to try and fish out the rest of the zoea.

Salt tanks currently sitting at 74F. I moved the light to the side of the tanks instead of hovering over top. This has seemed to put the temp right at the target level.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

More zoea than I originally thought. Kewlness. Makes a larger testing group. No casulties witnessed in the past couple of hours. That's a better sign than last attempt. They seem to huddle in the middle of tank near the light. This is leading me to think temperature is playing a bigger role. 

Now the next question will be feeding. Right now, I have added 2 tbsp of Nanno. The water has light green tint to it. I think what I'll do this time instead of using the dropper to mix up the water, I will extend the air tube down further and use it. This would keep the same amount of current in the tank at the same time as stirring up the plankton that settles on the bottom. I have increased the air flow just a tad from last time.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting find. The female in isolation has practically hatched out all her eggs. The odd thing, I can only find a few zoea. I'm thinking I may have had her in there too long and the water quality wasn't as good as it should have been. Grrrrr.

I have another female who is just days away so I will clean out the chamber and place her in there.

Salt tanks have been prepped with fresh water and phyto. Added a bit of Micro Algae grow to encourage the phyto to continue to grow with the zoea.

New Rotifers came in today. These are live specimens instead of the dry eggs I received last time. I'll get their bottle set up in the culture station tomorrow. I also received some decapsulated brine shrimp. May give them a whirl too.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And the Rotifers are started. Since I couldn't find out at what SG the Rotifers were cultured at from the vendor, I am slowly drip acclimating them to 1.014. From what I have read, this is a good salinity for breeding them.










Prior to starting the drip, I feed about 4ml Nannochloropsis. I will feed some more once acclimation is complete. 

This is one culture that I have to stay on top of because they say you need to harvest about 25% of it daily since they breed so fast. I believe they last about 8-10 days according to my research.

On the shrimp front, the next female is starting to drop larvae. Same thing as last one though in which there are only a couple in the water. I will be doing a water change today on the tank and try and determine the water quality issue. Two other females are berried and ready to go as well.

At least the rearing tanks should be all thoroughly aged and ready. This next round of testing, I'm looking at 1.014 and 1.005 on the limits.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Have a lot of zoea to work with from this female. I didn't think there was going to be that many when I first noticed the hatching yesterday. Today, I noticed that they all hatched out. I went to put the female back in the tank and I obviously stirred them all up. 

I'm going to go two days with this group and then place them in the salt water. So far as it seems with this first wave of tests, the zoea that are placed in the salt tanks within the first 24 hours have been the ones to survive the longest. Keep in mind there have only been a few test groups to date and still have a long way to go.

There will be plenty of food available from this point on. The Nannochloropsis phyto's have done really well at all salinities. I've got some Tetraselmis going at 1.014 as well. Rotifers seem to be doing well with first harvest there around Tuesday. I'm not really sure how to go about that yet though. Not sure if I just pour them into an alternate bottle or if they need to be filtered out. I believe the filtering might just be when feeding so as to not add their water to the tank.

One of the other females has dropped her eggs and I'm sure that was my doing. When I went to put the latest female in isolation, I managed to get the wrong one. I'm sure that is the one that dropped her eggs. One other egg carrying female in line and should be going into isolation at the end of the week.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Transfer to salt is beginning. I just moved over a majority of the zoea to the brack tank...unintentionally. lol. When the lights are out, they seem to huddle in one spot. I was surprised with how many I got on the first attempt. Luckily, there is still an ample amount to transfer to the low end salt.

My only issue at this time, is that the phyto didn't really take off in the tanks as I was hoping. Might be an issue so I'll have to monitor that closely. I did add about 20ml to each tank prior to adding the zoea.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check and zoea in both tanks have survived through the evening. Lightly stirred up the phyto sitting on the bottom of the tanks. The air bar didn't work as well as I'd hoped for so I went back to the dosing dropper but using it more gently than before. Just pushing the bulb enough to lift the phyto and let the current do the rest of the work.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And how about a shot from today:










This is at Day 3. All still looking well in both tanks. The zoea are staying bunched up. I'm flirting with cutting the lights out but since I don't have an alternate heat source, I'm a little timid.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I know it's still way early right now, but I definately like the way both tanks are progressing. I have not noticed any casulties at this stage yet. The minor adjustment I made to the air flow prior seems to be doing well. After stirring up the zoea, I watch them in what appears to be them actively "hunting" on the remnants that settle back down.

I duffed on my Rotifers and have to get a new culture in. I just got busy with rescaping several tanks that I never really got them going the way they should have been done. Hopefully the new will arrive soon and the zoea will be ready for them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Big test underway right now. I have decided to cut the lights for a bit. Being the only heat source at the moment, I'll keep a vigilant eye out and watch the temps. The tanks were sitting at 77 prior to cutting off the light. I won't let it get below 72 before turning it back on.

I did a quick spot check about 30 minutes into the test by turning the light on. The zoea have moved to the front of the tank and seemed to be in a more free float state then when the light was on. With the light on, they are huddled together in specific areas.

The zoea seem to be pretty active still. The phyto is getting the water cloudy which is what it should do. Just curious as to how green it will get. lol.

I'm getting ready to hatch out some brine shimp and as well have new rotifers and golden pearls on the way. Even if this test group fails, I will be even more prepared for the next group.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

So its sounding right now that the 1.015 salinity is doing the trick....

I have read this entire journal from the beginning and I'm fascinated. I would love to try amano shrimp.


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## rasbora (Sep 1, 2006)

Some biologist could write their thesis on this thread if it ends up being successful.

Keep up the good work.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Test was a failure. That was a hard pill to swallow but had to be done. Grrrrr. It wasn't a complete loss but the casulties were pretty high. I'm pretty sure it wasn't the drop in temperature as it was only 5 degrees. Plenty of current to keep the zoea moving along. 

I'm still very curious about this though. Prior to moving the zoea to the salt tanks, the lights go out as that tank has a 10hr photo period. There are no casulties when I collect and move them. Maybe heat is playing more of a factor then I originally believed. May need to bump the heat to around 80 and let it ride from there.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

problemman said:


> So its sounding right now that the 1.015 salinity is doing the trick....
> 
> I have read this entire journal from the beginning and I'm fascinated. I would love to try amano shrimp.


Not neccessarily. The low salt tank is still performing well at ~ 1.005. Didn't have a big enough test group to be certain but the ones in there are still hanging on. Even though I lost a few during last test. Percentage wise though, I lost more in the 1.014 tank than this one.



rasbora said:


> Some biologist could write their thesis on this thread if it ends up being successful.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


And thank you. I really love doing research. Very enjoyable.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

So it maybe that they don't need alot of salt to morph. So they may not be far from breeding projects for the average hobbiest


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

james this is quite awsome. i have yet to see any females or males all i know is all shirmp in the tank have sadles and not sure what to do. this is a very good read and you document it well. keep up the good work and let every one know how it is going. as for me i dought i will be breeding mine. if you would like a few more when it warms up i will be happy to send what few i have as im sure you will do good work with them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

On a sad note....POWER FAIL!

Woke up this morning and the power was out. My daughter said she woke up around 0200hrs and it was out then. That makes it at least four hours down time. No light, no heat and no aeration. This round of testing is done. 

Had to restart two filters on other tanks as well. Didn't have time to assess any other potential damages/casulties as I was late for work. Hopefully all will be ok.

I'll get the salt tanks cleaned out, refilled and running for next round.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

wicca27 said:


> james this is quite awsome. i have yet to see any females or males all i know is all shirmp in the tank have sadles and not sure what to do. this is a very good read and you document it well. keep up the good work and let every one know how it is going. as for me i dought i will be breeding mine. if you would like a few more when it warms up i will be happy to send what few i have as im sure you will do good work with them.


Thanks and I'll try to keep it going. 

Sounds like you may have all females. If none have berried by now, you may need to introduce new stock to get different numbers. I would be more than happy to provide them a home if you do decide to go that route.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Small glimmer of hope. 

So assessing the damage from this mornings power outage. Figured I would check things out just to ensure that all is lost. Started out in the higher tank. I noticed a couple of the zoea still moving around! Wow.

Needless to say, the tanks have to be reset due to the amount of casulties that are in there. So, I pulled out from the 1.014 tank that I could find that showed signs of life. I'm pretty sure I missed some, but there really wasn't much I could do about it. I moved those to a temporary container while I cleaned the old tank. Put in fresh water and phyto and then transferred them back in. All seems well at the moment.

Moved to the low salt tank. Didn't see anything moving in there. I decided to stir it up and see what happens. I found some movement! Kewlness! I picked up a couple in the dropper and transferred them into the high tank. 

Here's where it got a little interesting. I would drop a zoea into the tank. It would start to twitch. Like curl up in a ball. It would do this a couple of times and then straighten out and float around. I only moved about 10 in at this time. They are hovering around in the back corner near the light source. I'll go back in a little bit and check on them and see what's going on.

I didn't reset the low tank at this time. I'm debating on if I should try to find more and transfer or just wash the tank.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Golden Pearls arrived today. I'm starting with 50-100 and 100-200 micros. I've never used this before so this should be interesting.

I put a smidgeon of an amount in water and mixed thoroughly. Wow, that little bit made quite a bit. Not sure if I can keep it for a spell or not.

There doesn't appear to be too many zoea left in both tanks but I added it anyway. I'm getting ready to go back down there and check on things.

Another impact from the power outage....female dropped her eggs.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hard to find any zoea that may have made it. Even the ones I thought might have had a chance. I think this round may be officially called. I'll give it another day and see if i can find anything.

A couple things to note:

- Phyto is going to get really dark in there. Maybe the addition of Rotifers will help control that a bit as they will munch on it.

- Golden Pearls seem like they might get messy after a couple of days. It appears to get clumped up after a spell. May need to feed and then try to clean the bottom after a bit.

I'm starting to rething my design too. Right now I have one air inlet into the tank. Just not sure that is providing the current I want. I'm thinking of going with two air inlets cross corner from each other. Hopefully that will reduce possible dead spots.

On a side note, Amano's came in today. Awesome addition to the project. They just finished acclimating and entered their new home. Now to see how they will do with Otos and their eggs. I put them in the holding tank since it is bigger and the plan is that they will help keep the feeding tiddied up as I know I am over feeding but have to with the amount of babes in there at the moment.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still nothing to update as yet. There has been no further activity at the moment. Still waiting on the females to berry up again. 

I did have my Amano's show up a few weeks ago. Still a couple weeks out for getting some Ninja's.


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## 9am53 (Jan 23, 2008)

I have read this whole thread since I recently got some propinquas and think they are pretty cool. I have a question though, don't laugh, but in the beginning on this thread people mention that these are "low form" breeders, what does that mean?

Thanks for all the work put into this journal, it is interesting to read.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Low form breeders relate to the fact that the eggs hatch out as larvae instead of minature versions of the adults. Depending on the species of shrimp, the larvae may require brackish to full sea water to morph into the adult form. There are even some species of Ghost shrimp that require freshwater.

Still waiting on them and the Amano's to berry up for the project to continue. Everything seems to be in a lull right now. But not rushing them.


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## 9am53 (Jan 23, 2008)

I see, so low form breeders are less desirable due to the obviously high amount of work they need to fully develop?

THanks


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Sad note today, I lost a female Propinqua after molting. Hate when this happens. Not sure what causes it. I do feed calcium enriched feeds but might not be enough.

On a good note....BERRIES! Finally! Just now found a berried female in there. I'm sooooo relieved. Pick to follow. I do need add a few more to the tank to account for the past losses. Weather is getting just right for shipping so I should be able to restock at one time.

I'm still having a whale of time to grow rotifers, so it looks like this next round will just be phyto and golden pearls. I may try to introduce some baby brine but we'll see.

I'm rather enjoying this project I must say. Still waiting on the Ninja's to be available as well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Chalk another one up to human error!

I just discovered that the cloudiness I was noticing was due to the filter being off. I never plugged it back in after the last water change. Unreal! 

Hopefully the damage is done in that I only lost (3) shrimp; 2 females and a male. I'm down to one male now.

Dang I'm so ticked at myself.

As long as the rest of them are fine. The one berried female is still doing good so that's a small plus.

Will definately have to get a small restock for them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

All looks well after the flub up. Water is nice and clear. Shrimpies look good. Better yet, female is still berried. Approaching the one week mark so she will be going into isolation in a few days.

Salt tanks have been prepped and are running ready for their occupants.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And Phase II of my project is officially under way. I found this pretty gal just a while ago:










Salt tanks are nice and cycled. Will do a small water change in a few days to prepare.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Getting ready to isolate one Amano female today. Have everything prepped and ready to go. Going to do something just a little different during this round. On another note, found (2) Amano's berried up. They are nearly two weeks apart so this could be a little interesting. I'll have to go and get a few more small tanks.

One Propinqua with a very nice saddle. Here of late, they have been dropping the eggs after a week which is not good. Water quality is good so there may be some other underlying feature that I haven't discovered just yet. So we'll see.

Still nothing as yet on the Red Nose. Actually hard to tell if there is a female in this bunch to be honest with you.

I'll post back once the Amano's is isolated and settled in.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's some shots from today's progress.

This is the first expecting mom:









Close up of the developing eggs. As you can see, they will hatch any day now.









Now, here is a very quick shot of the breeding setup.









I've got more work to do on this since I am restructuring everything. Previous attempts have had the light on the side of the tanks. I will be building a frame in which the light will hang directly over top. I will have to be mindful of the temps as warm weather is approaching but think it will work out fine.

Another change is going to be in the air circulation. Past attempts had one air tube directly in the center. The new format will have two tubes cross corner from each other. This will be an added benefit for better circulation and water movement. When the frame is bent, the tubes will hang directly from the top of the frame to be able to adjust the flow better. I feel this will be a much system. 

With more shrimp being added, I will have to make the frame capable of handling at least (4) tanks.

Once the larvae have hatched out, I will immediately begin flushing them downstream. This test group will be handled in both sea and brack water. Phyto will be introduced during this time as well to get it seeded and the larvae can start looking for food when they are ready.

Stay tuned for more....


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check and all is still holding out well. No hatching to report. Temp stayed steady at 72 throughout the night. A very good sign. I expect it to bump up to around 78 during the day with the light on. This of course will change when the light stays running full time after the eggs hatch. The double air line is doing a nice job at keep a constant circulation in the tank. Now granted, there are no larvae in here yet, but judging by the particles in the water, it will work out well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Tank temp maintained at 72 all day today. I might have the light in just the right spot it appears. Still debating to lower it a little more just to try and get that extra little bump in temp for the larvae. Right now though, I'll leave it where it sits.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Mama still holding. I'll do a small water change today to clear the waste from the bottom of the tank. Give her a couple more small flakes of food too.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Closer and closer we get:









Water change in the holding tank and gave her one algae flake to snarf on. I think she appreciated that. ;o)

Temp in the tank was at 75 today. Other than a permanent frame, I will say the height of the light is spot on.....for now.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And we have a hatching!

Funny story, my daughter was downstairs with me checking on the tanks. She saw the Amano's in their home tank and asked how many were in there as she thought I only had (2). Told her there were (6) in the tank; (3) male and (3) females. Then she saw the berried females and I told her the other one is in the rearing tank waiting. She went to look at it and then said they all hatched out that there were babies everywhere. I went over to look and sure enough, her under carriage was empty and tons of larvae all over the place.

This kind of dispells one item with the Amano's in regards to hatching at night. This morning when I turned the light on, she was still holding. So sometime between 0600hrs and now, they hatched under the lights.

Using a small flashlight for an added light source, I placed it in the opposite corner from where mom was. I then gently lowered a small tupperware bowl in and scooped out mom. Wound up getting a few larvae too but nothing a dosing dropper couldn't take care of. I then placed the female back into the home tank and she was happy. 

Stay tuned for more....


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here are some notes on this hatching:
- Approximately 18 days after noticing the berried female
- Female was in the rearing tank for (3) days prior to hatching
- Rearing tank temp: 74 degrees
- Day 1 of first brood: 28-Apr-2011

Here are some quick shots. Lighting is pretty bright so I adjusted them the best I could for viewing. Was hard to get good focus due to the lighting and subject size of course.

These three photos show the unhatched developed larvae. Taking a closer look, you can see a few that are not developed and will have to eventually be removed.



























And a short video clip:
Amano Hatching on 28-Apr-2011

Judging by what I see, there will be more hatching (hopefully) throughout the rest of the day. I'm strictly guessing at this but my logic stems from seeing the developed larvae as depicted in the pics. Mama Amano dropped every egg. It's wasn't like other dwarf varieties where the female carries all the eggs until they all hatch.

Hopefully there is enough current going in there to keep them viable. So far it seems to be just enough. It is keeping the suspended in the current and not bouncing off the wall or such.

My initial plan was to start sending them downstream as soon as they hatched. Seeing that there are still quite a few left to hatch, I will wait about (2) days to begin their journey to the sea.

Plenty of Phyto and Golden Pearls at the ready. I'm also looking at using APR (Artificial Plankton Rotifers) as well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Didn't notice any new hatchings. Not sure if they were any or not but it didn't seem like anything changed with the unhatched ones. Makes me wonder if those will hatch out.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check looked well. Tons of zoea floating about. Still many, many eggs on the bottom. I'm starting to think these may not actually hatch. I will work on seperating them today and placing them in a seperate container just in case. Once all the eggs have been removed, the zoea will begin their journey downstream.

Since I have two more females with eggs and they are close together by date, I am only going to work at full sea salinity with this first Amano group.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water change in the zoea tank today. That proved to be a real challenge but I got through it. I had to use a brine shrimp net and some small tubing. Wound up dipping the net too far and got some zoea. Hopefully I was able to recover all of them. It was < 10 so not a big impact.

The zoea are now transitioning to full salt water. My plan is a slow introduction even though studies say it is not neccessary. This is the first round with Amano's so I'm going to start at ground zero. I'm dripping in 2x35ppm at a rate of (1) drop every 2 seconds. The water change took the level to (4) cups. I'll add (4) cups of the 2x and then 2 additional cups of phyto mix at full sea water. I wanted to start introducing the phyto at the same time as the salt but not sure if that would cause initial salinity level problems. In the end, it will all be 35ppm anyway, just don't want to go any higher in the mean time. Maybe a salt water expert can assist with that.

Also, back in Propinqua world, we now have another berried female there. Definately will need a couple extra small tanks to work with being that the ladies are spaced out time wise.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think I may have waited too long to introduce them to salt water and subsequently .. feeding. Very brief check this morning, I didn't see very many zoea floating about. I did find a few hanging on the walls and a few in the water column. Again, this was just a brief check but definately should have seen a lot more.

I never did get the tank up to full sea water last night. The drip was started too late in the evening and I eventually shut it off when it was time to retire for the eve. The plan is to start it back this afternoon when I return. But may be too late. 

In either event, this was a good lesson learned on the Amano's. Unlike the Propinqua, all the eggs did not hatch out. This is where I lost a day as I waited for them to. Then of course the human factor comes in as I waited so long to make the initial move to salt. Judging by the amount of zoea I saw between yesterday and this morning, I would say the move to salt and feeding of phyto really should take place immediately after hatching with no waiting period. A very most, no more than (2) days after hatching. So if the next females have the same pattern, the unhatched eggs will be removed the same day and the transfer to salt will begin.

By my calculations, the next two females should be ready in about a week. I will examine them today just to be on the safe side and may even isolate them today depending on what I find.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still have quite a few zoea in the tank so I guess the loss isn't too bad. Definately notice the difference in numbers though. I would give a rough guesstimate at < 100 now.

I have the salt drip going again. Actually it's been going for a couple hours now. I'm also in the process of introducing the phyto. I'm doing a coctail of Nannochloropiss and Tetraselmis. If the zoea survive these next few days, I will introduce a very small amount of Golden Pearls.

Temps have been holding steady in the tank at 72.

Getting ready to go check on the other two Amano ladies. I saw the one Propinqua and she is fine and has a nice grouping of eggs in her carriage.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Definately have > 100 zoea in the tank. Since the tank is nice and green with the phyto, it is very hard to see much in there. I did spot a few on the sides but that was pretty much it. So....I did the light test.

I turned off the over head light on the tank and used a small mag flash light. As soon as I turned it on and shined it into the tank, it was like static cling! lol Within a second, the side of the tank was litterally covered with zoea. Was pretty hilarious actually. But is was a good way to guestimate how many survivors are in there. I'm half tempted to do that once a day as it pretty much guarantees they will be active as they are drawn to the light.

Approaching the one week mark.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still progessing well. We have reached the (1) week mark. Only way to check on the zoea pretty much is by using the light test. I can occassionally see a few in the current as they flow past the front of the glass. But once I turn off the main light and use a flashlight, they all come a runnin.









Temp in the tank is down to 66. We have had the heat off in the house for a while after a nice warm spell. It has dropped into the mid 40s at night again but we haven't turned it back on. So far, it doesn't look like it has had a major impact on the zoea. If anything, I would probably anticipate a longer period to morph due to the colder temps but I'm not going to try and adjust it.

I can see some phyto clumps forming on the bottom of the tank even with the cross currents established. I will use a dropper and dispurse them. Also, a very small amount of Golden Pearls will be added today. I could just leave it with phyto as their food source but definately want to ensure that they have a ton of nutritious foods available. Have to be carefull as to not affect water quality which is why only a small pinch will be used.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Day 9 and I'm officially calling this round of testing. No signs of zoea life today. I'll break down the tanks, get them cleaned up and move the other two females in for round 2. This round will be busy as I have (2) Amano's and (1) Propinqua expecting around the same time frame.

I'll get a salinity reading of the tank when I break it down to see where the mark was. I suspect however, the failure was a two part deal; late acclimation to salt water and low temps.

I'll try and focus on the setup a little more so I can stabilize the temps where I want them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well the Propinqua and one of the Amano dropped their eggs earlier than expected and lost both those batches. 

I do have another Amano due to drop any day now and she has been moved into isolation. I checked on her this morning and all is well. The poo machine really cranked up last night so I will have to do a small water change in her tank. This time, once the hatching occurs, any that are unhatched will be removed same day and the journey downstream will begin shortly after. I'll have to tweak the phyto mix to achieve the right salinity prior to feeding.

With this female, I'm going to be aiming for a mid brackish number around 1.020. I know I didn't get a good test in at the full sea level due to time and temp, but will revisit that on another round. Taking the human error out of that equation, I believe I would have gotten better results.

I have recently acquired a refractometer to better aid me in my salinity levels.

The first Amano female already has eggs again and has been this way for about a week now. As much as I don't want to, I'm considering the moving the females earlier. Especially the Propinqua's as they are seeming to carry a shorter period of time than when this project first started. Just don't like the idea of them in that small tank for too long. 

In other news: 

- found (2) Red Nose saddled yesterday. Not sure how many are left from the original bunch but hopefully there is at least one male in there. 
- Caridina serratirostris finally showed up on an exporter list. I'm in the works of getting my first batch in.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I never had success in brackish with amanos. Full salinity was the only real setup that had a viable outcome. Gold pearls should be toward the end. Phyto is really all they can handle and anything else may disrupt water quality since it will most likely go uneaten.

These were just my observations over many trials. Ymmv. Good luck, sounds like fun projects.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Gatekeeper said:


> Gold pearls should be toward the end. Phyto is really all they can handle and anything else may disrupt water quality since it will most likely go uneaten.


The water quality is definately what I want to stay on top of. The phyto is the main food source. Good info on the Pearls. I'll feed them later on in the run.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

I see in some of your early posts about transitioning to salt water. I would venture to say that you can do this pretty quickly from my experience, but perhaps this process could simulate the actual transition more accurately as the would experience in the wild.

Interesting concept, perhaps I will give that a try on my next setups.

Just saw an amano holding last night and was inspired to give this a go.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

The "dump and run" method is what I initially started off with on the Propinqua. The reason (or mine at least) for the slow transition is just that...to attempt to mimic the wild. To simulate the zoea's being washed out of the basins and into the sea. 

I have a whole list of trial and error items to work through so should be able to collect a lot of data.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

The Amano's are still holding their eggs. This is interesting as it's a longer period than the first female. Will be doing water changes in their tanks today. Also, found another berried Propinqua yesterday. This time, I will be moving her into isolation early, as soon as today but no later than this weekend. I don't like the idea of her being in the small tank for that period of time, but don't want to the lose the larvae either.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water change for the expecting mom today. Interesting find. While drawing out the water, I found a couple zoea in the water. With that discovery, I would have to think that a full hatching is very soon to take place.

I'll be moving another female into isolation in the next couple of days.

And on another good note, I just learned that the C. serratirostris will be shipping on Wednesday.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check and mama still holding the eggs. I find this rather interesting since I did find a couple of hatched zoea just the other day. Very interesting. She's holding for a very long time.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

_Awesome_ thread - not sure why people don't comment more often on all the things you try, but I really admire your method and tenacity toward discovery.

roud:

DK


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Awesome thread....I don't comment because I'm scared of low-order shrimps....eggs? full salt bath....back to fresh....whattt!?!?....


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## duff (Feb 26, 2006)

Simply an amazing 10 page read, thank you for taking the time document all of this. Will be following it now... Great luck to you as you continue on!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks! I love research ... not that anyone can tell. 

I think we have an over protecting mom suffering from serparation anxiety.  She's still holding. Second female is ready to move into isolation. Will try and get that done this evening.

Was notified that the Ninja's shipped yesterday. Should be here tomorrow. Think I'm going to switch things up again. Turns out all my Red Nose are females. Rather odd because it's usually the other way around. So I will keep them in the Propinqua at this time until I can get another grouping in. Need to restock the Prop's too. So now the Ninja's will go in with the O. Vittatus. The Propinqua and Red Nose will remain with the O. Cocama.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

James,

You say she is "holding for a long time", can you give us a gauge on what you mean? 
Is this statement based on what you have experiences based on a predictive holding time for most of the females or is it that usually when you pull them, they are stressed into shedding their zoe?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Gatekeeper said:


> James,
> 
> You say she is "holding for a long time", can you give us a gauge on what you mean?
> Is this statement based on what you have experiences based on a predictive holding time for most of the females or is it that usually when you pull them, they are stressed into shedding their zoe?


Since she is only my second Amano test subject, I don't have a lot of personal data to go by. Judging by the research, the fems carry ~ 30 days before hatching occurs.

Now my first test, the lady carried right around the three week mark (which may explain all the unhatched eggs). For this gal, she has been carrying nearly six weeks. I didn't look into the tank well this morning but a couple of days ago, I spotted a couple of zoea in the water which lead me to believe the hatching was immenent.

Hopefully, my methods for isolation haven't been too stressful. They remain in the water the whole time unlike when you net them out and transfer. I coax the females into a small container. This container is then slowly lowered into the isolation tank where she swims out.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Po and friends arrived just fine. (Kung Fu Panda reference in case anyone missed it)  Such a coincidence that the Ninja shrimp arrive the same time that the movie Kung Fu Panda 2 comes out eh?

Slowly acclimating into their new tank. Took a few pics of them in the bowl that don't do them justice but it's understandable at the moment. There are (5) that are carrying eggs as well. This definately jump starts this phase of the project. Not knowing how long they have been berried, I will give them a couple of days to settle in and then isolate them. Isolating them so early might be a bit tricky with all the travels they just went through.

A quick note, the egg size appears to be consistant with that of the Propinqua, so I will initially guestimate about two weeks for hatching. The shrimpies themselves are small. Just under an inch.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Was out on the lake all day yesterday. Got home and made a nice discovery. There are zoea all over the Vitattus tank! I'll try and fish out what I can today ... if any survived the night with the lights off. Think I will go at low brackish on these and see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well....a majority of the zoea didn't survive the night. I expected that. I just couldn't take the risk of isolating the females so quick after their arrival. It was a tough call. I just seperated (3) more ladies that are berried. Normally, I wouldn't keep them in the same container, but not knowing how long they have been berried and the fact that zoea were already found, I think this will be the best call.

The Amano lady is STILL holding her eggs. I may have to try and find a better way of tracking when "exactly" they get berried but have to be carefull not to disrupt the process. If her eggs would have hatched, I would try and capture the last couple of Ninja zoea and try to rear them with the Amano zoea. To give an idear as to how long she has been holding, there is all kind of algae growing in her isolation tank. From diatoms to green algae.

We'll see where we go from there.

On a side note about the Ninja's, these guys are just simply awesome. I really hope I can be successfull with this group. Every day I check on the tank, they are a different color. It's just simply...well...awesome.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Full hatching has finally arrived.

Returned home from the movies late last night. Went down to turn off the lights and found that the Amano mom has finally released all the remaining eggs. I know she's like ... "FINALLY!!"  I went ahead a moved her back home where I'm sure she is glad to be with plenty of food, friends and hiding spots. Looks like only a handfull of eggs were unhatched.

I will begin flusshing them out to sea this afternoon as well as introducing phyto into the tank. Will monitor from here.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And here are the latest hatchings:









Very nice group here. Still undecided at the salinity I want to go with. Tank starts out with (6) cups of fresh water. Started the phyto coctail drip. Adding 1 1/2 cups during this round. Taking a temp reading at the moment.

Next Amano is in isolation.

Ninja's still holding and we're waiting on those zoea.


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## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

hi i just wanted to add that my friend have the same exact shrimp as yours. They are quite beautiful but unfortunately very hard to breed.

His first two attempt fail when the zoes all die out as they are added to salt water. I guess the best way to go at this is slowly raise not only the salinity but the alkalinity as well.

However i do not know the water chemistry in their native habitat which i bet is very important.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Does anybody report on how these shrimp actually live and reproduce in their wild habitats? Do the adults live upstream and let the hatchlings wash down to the ocean, then they swim upstream as they mature, or how does the change in salinity occur in their lifecycle? Are the adults more properly brackish than fresh dwelling?

That's an awesome batch of zoea in that pic.


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## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> Does anybody report on how these shrimp actually live and reproduce in their wild habitats? Do the adults live upstream and let the hatchlings wash down to the ocean, then they swim upstream as they mature, or how does the change in salinity occur in their lifecycle? Are the adults more properly brackish than fresh dwelling?
> 
> That's an awesome batch of zoea in that pic.


adults are completely freshwater and zoes are flush out to sea, the problem is i do not know the water chemistry of the salt water they are wash out too. my guess is the indonesian mangrove tend to be a little more acidic than other salt water. Probably best to keep young at 78 degrees and a ph of around 7.8-8


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

There are a couple of aspects to solving the survival rate of zoea just from the water chemistry aspect (disregarding for the moment other aspects such as food source or temperature changes, etc.): 

First, what are the starting and ending water chemistries. 

Second, what is the length and profile of the change gradient.

It could be a problem with poor simulation of either of these that takes out too many of the zoea.

This is such a fascinating project.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Recording the water parms in these small containers is actually one thing I have not been doing. Being that they are so small, the swings can be huge and the data mostly unreliable. I will do this upon the next hatching prior to washing them out to sea. However, recording an end value will near impossible I believe with the phyto water and using the drop testers.

I have at times considered the pH factor and could add a small amount of CC if I want to go down that road. For now, I have just been converting the water they are in to a salt environment. No water changes.

Zoea syndrome is another issue that has to be worked through. I believe that by having the phyto enriched environment, this should be prevented. I have been using equal parts of phyto, but begining with the next round, will be increasing the Tetraselmis to a 2-1 ratio. My only question on doing this though is the lighting. Is my small 18w bulb enough to penetrate the dark green water to help keep the zoea suspended. 

Having the phyto settle on the bottom is another item of interest. I do run a dual air bubbler into the rearing tanks and the surface movement appears to be good. However, I don't think I'm getting enough mid level current. I'm still monitoring the zoea activity and they are constantly moving about which is the good thing.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

From my experience, full salinity was the only way to get anything viable. There were two main articles on the web that cited a step by step process to do this. There was only one discrepancy between the two articles, both involving the proper salinity.

I am looking forward to this again, I just cleared out a nice spot for two ten gallons and ordered a bunch of shrimp to play around with.

James, is it possible that these" swings" because of container size is your problem?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Gatekeeper said:


> is it possible that these" swings" because of container size is your problem?


Not saying I have any swings at the moment. Just that small tanks like this are more susceptible to having swings. I haven't actually taken any readings of the tanks. I've been using the "set it and forget method".


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

How do you physically change over the water from fresh, to saline (or vise versa)? 

In nature, they will experience some sort of _gradient_, moving from one to the other. You can simulate this by a drip in system, although it takes a good volume of water to transition over, many times the volume of a simple water change. You would need some sort of circulation (even an airstone would work, to move the water around), to mix in the drips, and some sort of drainage, to keep draining mixed water from the container as new water comes in. Either an overflow or a bottom drain set to the same rate as in the influx (obviously overflow is easier). You could set up your containers like my micro tanks, with mini-bulkheads, and drip in the new water. I put a plug of poly floss into the bulkhead to keep out babies. The micro tanks require a saran wrap lid, as they will have fluxes in chemistry due to evaporation if not.

This could be key to survival, if your current transition method is outside the physiological limits of survival - too abrupt a transition. Their bodies have to make a significant osmotic transition between fresh and salt, and this requires a gradient transition. If you change osmolarity too fast in biological systems, the membranes can't adjust fast enough and they will pop under osmotic pressure. The key is to figure out _how fast/slow is optimal_, and _is it linear_. I find in bio systems, they prefer a low slope gradient for the first 25% transition, then steeper after that as their bodies acclimate to the new chemistry. But the front end has to be relatively slow, to get going, to get the bodies started toward the new chemistry. If, in nature, the females drop the zoea in fresh water, and they are washed out to sea, this would mean a longer slower front end and faster back end on the gradient.

If, in nature, the females themselves swim out to salt water then drop the zoea, then you would want to start much faster with the zoea in stronger salinity.

I'd be happy to help you make a micro tank if you'd like - drill it and install the bulkhead for you.

DK


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Here's a pictorial of how to think about gradients, and their differing profiles. Having the correct gradient can make or break a biological transition, so you have to have this picture in your head as you try things, if a gradient transition is the limiting factor in survival. I suspect it is in the case of zoea survival.

For the sake of simplicity of illustration, I just made all the gradients the same length of time, but you can specify any shape profile, total amount change, or length of time to complete, for any gradient. Probably zoea have a relatively fast gradient on the scale of hours in nature.

"A" is your starting water chemistry. "B," "C," etc. is the end water chemistry, whatever it is. T is the total length of time to transition from the start to the end of your gradient. The "profile" is the rate of change in chemistry at a given time, plotted over the time of the gradient to complete. It can be the same throughout the time (linear), or change over time (non-linear). 

You change the slope of the gradient by changing the drip rate over time of the new chemistry water coming into the container, BTW.

I've spent the past two years applying this concept to shrimping, and boy, has it made a difference to get it correct!

DK


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I'll have to look at your micro tank setups. May be interesting. Here is my process. My apologies for being a bit long winded.

What I have done was taken these large critter keepers that are just shy of a gallon in size. I have carefully measured and marked the water levels on the tank with different colored tapes. (see pic on page 8, post #112) Now granted, my science isn't exact as this is a home project and have to work within the tools that I have. My bottom mark is (4) cups. Each mark after that is an additional (2) cups. This tells me how much freshwater I start with and salt water / phyto to add to get to the desired level.

My normal process, is to fill the tank with fresh filtered water from the tank that the female will transfer from. This is coming directly from the HOB outflow. The female is slowly and carefully corralled into a small container which is then slowly lowered into the tank. Very minimal stress for her. Same process for when I move her back after the zoea hatch.

After the zoea hatch and the female has been moved back home, I have to get the water level down to right level. Using a brine shrimp net and a 1" pvc fitting (the fitting sits inside the net to hold shape), I start a siphon with a small tube and slowly draw out water. Might seem a bit excessive but it is actually much easier this way when working around the zoea. In my previous experiement, I started with (6) cups of freshwater.

From here, I drip the salt water in at a rate of no more than (2) drops per second. Much of what I have read states that you can just plunk the zoea straight into the salt water. My thinking is that the better you can simulate what occurs in nature, the better success rate. So I want to simulate the zoea being washed out to sea by slowly raising the salinity. By adding the water this way, it should be the same as water exchange but with less waste.

I have (2) air bubblers in opposite corners. I originally started with one directly in the center but didn't like the current in the tanks. My thinking is with two in opposite corners of each other, I should be able to create some nice cross currents which will also create a good mid level current. The salt water and phyto drips are located right above the bubbles. This way they are dispursed with the current.

Once my 12 cup level has been reached, it's just a waiting game from there.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Also, the one thing I did invest in was a refactometer instead of relying on the hydrometer. Hopefully this will let me dial in the SG more closely.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Came home to find this:









Hundreds of C. Serratirostris zoea ... and a molt. These guys are very small. Now, with this many zoea, what I thought were larger eggs, obviously was an illusion. The eggs at first glance looked to be the about the same size of C. propinqua even though the shrimp species is smaller. Very interesting. I'll try to observe the next berried lady closer. There is still one in the isolation chamber but can't get a good view of her.

So...busy night ahead. I have to fish out these zoea and get them into a rearing tank. The female will be placed back in the main tank. And we wait on the eggs of the last female to hatch.

On to the Amano zoea. I'm not happy with what I found. It appears that I had a pretty big die off today. I still see quite a few floating but no where near what was observed this morning. I am begining to think I may have introduced them either too soon or too quickly. It's about the only thing that I can think of at the moment. I haven't gotten the SG to where I want it as yet. They will continue their downstream journey today and should reach the sea by night fall. I'm also thinking that I may be adding too much phyto to begin with. I will scale down to 1 cup next time.

Which leads me back to the Ninja's as I have to get a phyto drip for them going as well as washing them out to sea. These guys are gonna be at brack instead of full sea to start with. Depending on how many hatch from the remaining female, I may put that batch at full salinity.

More pics to follow.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

That is an awesome sight. You have some shrimp keeping skills.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Another aspect to think about is oxygen content during the gradient. If, in nature, the zoea are released in fresh then travel down to the sea, this means they have a very slow front end, and sudden, steep back end when they hit the sea, to sea water. I would think their total journey would be short, though, as the adults likely don't migrate that far upstream. But flowing down a river they would experience a good current, which means a high oxygen content in that water, higher than standing water. Their propensity toward light may have evolved to encourage them to seek the surface of the water, again, where oxygen content would be great.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Good thought process on the O2 and light. This could as well explain the sudden drop off at night as the zoea go deeper to less oxygenated water. {hmmmmm...scratches head}

With your O2 comment, I'm wondering if maybe I should switch from my bubbler method to an airstone which would give me finer bubbles for better saturation?

My total time to sea is about a day. Would definately like to be able to comare this to the wild but not know actual habitat and river status, that would be hard. 

I'm going to experiment on the Ninja's. I know as fact that the light goes off...I loose nearly all of them. Now, a bigger question would be salinity and how quick do these guys need to hit salt water?


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Here's an idea I've been mulling all day:

Go thee to the BORG and get some PVC parts in say 1 inch pipe (that would be: short lengths of straight pipe and a buncha 90's). Make yourself a cobra shaped piece of pipe - like a cobra holding its head up, using a coil of tail to make a base to balance up on, so the base holds up one up pipe, basically. Both ends of the cobra open. The head of the cobra is about an inch below the water surface and the pipe aims straight up, and the tail end is on floor level. Down this pipe, just like an undergravel uptube, you put an airline ending in a fine bubble air stone - place the airstone as close to the floor down the head pipe as possible - the farther up the bubbles rise, the more current they draw more effectively through the pipe, from the tail end up and out the head end. (You will probably want the air stone up about an inch, so it doesn't send bubbles into the floor level pipes, filling them with an air bubble, causing the cobra to float up, however - place the airstone such that the bubbles can only go UP the head pipe and nowhere else.) This will effectively both super oxygenate the water AND cause a convection current sucking the water into the tail end of the pipe and out the head, just like an undergravel filter does with water flow. This will give you gentle low-to-high water circulation in the tank and at the same time super-oxygenate it. So you don't have dead spots with low oxygen.

Also, you will need to cover the tank with sorta tight saran wrap, because as the micro bubbles reach the surface and pop, they cause a spritz at the surface, which can both make a mess and also cause a lot of evaporative losses if you spritz all your water away! The saran needs to be tight as it will develop a layer of water on the underside from the spritz, and if it's loose it will run down the plane of the Saran and drip off the edge onto the outside of the tank, possibly.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hmmmm...beddy interesting grasshoppa.

The tops of the tanks are currently covered with a piece of plexi. There are two holes drilled in opposit corners for the air bubblers to be inserted into. The air flow is controlled via valves on each bubbler.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Ewe cood make two cobras, each with the head pipe underneath one of the plexi holes. Like this:


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I may just have to look into this further. I wonder if this current would be too much for the zoea. But if valved out, it may just work. May have to make a stop by tomorrow.

I just checked on the Ninja's and there is some settling going on. Not sure if I like the current. There are still plenty drifting, but there shouldn't be any settling. This might mean they are weak and need to be introduced to salt water quicker.

I cracked open the valves just a tick more but don't want to go any further than this. I have started to drip a small amount of phyto. Only using Tetraselmis at the moment.

Now one other thing on my list to investigate are different rearing vessels. I've toyed around with using 2l bottles. Cutting the bottom off of one and the second half way. Invert the first bottle into the second. An airstone would sit at the bottom. This setup would create more of a conicle shape and may keep a better current.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Well, here's what I do: Think. Like. A. Shrimp.

So, you're just born, and floating down the river toward the sea.

This means moderatly fast current, high oxygen, fast trip, probably under a day. Because wherever they start their journey from is where mom and pop had to swim from the sea UP TO the freshwater starting point - this is not going to be very far, especially since mom and dad are commuting upstream, against the current. So they may only be a matter of yards or tens of yards from the ocean. That would mean a very fast T on the gradient - possibly an hour or even less. How far do you reckon mom and pop would commute upstream to retire and raise a family?

So in your fake river chamber, you need moderately strong current, but you don't want to slice and dice the babies. That's why you use a relatively large bore pipe size - the larger the bore, the slower the pull up through the pipe and more gentle journey. But you want to exchange all that volume of water past the oxygen source all the time, while not tumbling your babies to death. They are likely pretty darned hardy for travel, if their natural course is to be swept down river to the sea, though.

I know when I hatch brine shrimp I tumble the heck out of them with a bubbler and they seem to like being thrown around.


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## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

not sure if this has been discuss or not but what is your method of raising ph and lowering temperature for zoes?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm not tinkering with the pH at all.

As for temp, it is strictly maintained by the heat from the light. The light sits directly on plexi tops which is keeping the temps right around 76. Now the catch to this is we are running the a/c in the house now. If not for that, the temp would be in upper 80s which actually might be too high.


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## anh (Jul 20, 2009)

ill definitely give some input cause my friend shrimp will have their babies again soon. It looks like though that oxygenation and water flow is pretty important cause he put them in a small fish bowl and they did not do so well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Two of the biggest items are current and feeding. Phytoplanktons are crucial for them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm seeing less and less of the ninja zoea. 

Thinking the transfer from one vessel to the other was too drastic a change. They were in a specimen container. When i transferred them, I filled the rearing tank as usual and then submerged the specimen container it in. If this is indeed the case, it goes to say that any change with the zoea regardless of what it may be, has to be very slow.

If this group doesn't make it, I will reset the rearing tank and move the other two berried females in there as is my normal practice.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check. Ninja zoea don't appear to have fared the day after the transfer. I'm kicking myself for how I did it. I only saw a few floating in the current. I'm thinking of pulling them out and putting them in with the Amano's. If I do this, then I will move the other Ninja ladies into this tank following my normal routine. This way there will be no transferring of zoea.

The Amano zoea are still doing fine. Really dark in the tank as to be expected but since there are a good amount of zoea in the tank, I can see them as they drift to the sides.

I have one Amano and two Ninja ladies that should be hatching out very soon if not last night. Lights aren't on this early in the morning to check.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Looks like I may be losing my Amano zoea. Temp is holding steady at 78, ton of phyto growing in the tank and the current is nice and good. Not sure what the reasoning would be. A little confusing to say the least. I never did reach the salinity that I wanted to acheive so I'm wondering if this may be a factor. I'll get a reading shortly to see. I'm really starting to doubt the light intensity while the tank is this dark with phyto. I think with the next lady, I'll try to increase the intensity.

Over in the Nina tank, those zoea are still hanging with me.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Last of the Ninja's hatched today. I moved the female back to the main tank. I have the zoea under light and air bubbler in their specimen container for the moment. I'll move them to salt water tomorrow in a more permanent setting.

Very hard to see how many Amano zoea are still hangin with me, but I can catch some passing by the sides from time to time. It is starting to get the same way with the first Ninja tank as it is getting darker as the phyto grows.

I'm going to go with a better lighting system which should allow more light focus/density in the individual tanks. I think this will help greatly.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Ok, so we are over a week into both the Amano's and Ninja's. Visibility is definately tough that's for sure. I still continue to see zoea floating by in the current so I'm pressuming all is going well. The Amano zoe has grown quite nicely. Sure would be nice to capture some pics. I occassionally shine a flashlight in there to try and get a better look into the tank. I can see some zoea floating as well as some that are "bobbing/twitching" near the bottom. The ones near the bottom are of concern even though the current remains nice in the tank.

Someone recently offered me an idea to increase the current without affecting the bubbler too much. Think I'm going to try this on one of the upcoming tanks and see where it leads me.

Two more Amano ladies are waiting to hatch their eggs. And, yesterday, I discovered a berried Ninja. These two seem to be keeping the project at full speed. I need to get a restock of the Propinqua and Red Nose. It may be the tank as the Propinqua don't seem to be actively breeding like they did at the beginning. The Red Nose are all female so there definately won't be anything going on there for now.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Spot check of the zoea tanks.....Can't be for sure but I think all the Ninja's are lost. It was only a spot glance but didn't notice any zoea floating. Next to them are the Amano's and they are growing pretty good still. I'm going to attempt a picture or two but doubt any will turn out. They are in constant motion. I'll give the tanks a better looksee in a bit.

The other two Amano ladies are still holding there eggs. I'm anticipating a hatching there any day now. There are several Ninja ladies that are berried again as well. Good signs.

Water changes in all the regular tanks going on at the moment. Recharging some CO2 bottles as well.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

good luck good luck...I hope they survive until juvi age...


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

shrimpnmoss said:


> good luck good luck...I hope they survive until juvi age...


Thx..but I do hope they survive longer than that.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Check of the zoea tanks today is not good. I didn't see any floaters.  I'll get a better look in just a bit. I thought I was closer this time judging by how big the Amano's grew to. But...that may still turn out to be a good sign. We'll see. With the other two ladies expected to hatch out any day, I'll be right back in the saddle.

Speaking of hatching, I found Ninja zoea in their tank! Yikes! Their carry time to hatching is obviously a lot shorter than I expected. I'll try to fish out as many as I can so as to not waste this cycle. There are at least (3) berried females that need to be isolated today as well just in case.

Definately like that we are ramping up progress. I'll be in better shape within a week to restock the Propinqua and Red Nose just as soon as I find a good supplier.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I should hire someone to be my official zoea catcher when this happens. You think .01 per zoea is good?  . My goodness that took a long time. I know I didn't get them all but hopefully got a vast majority of them. They are being washed out to sea as I type. I'll add phyto a bit later.

Getting ready to isolate a couple of the Ninja ladies if I can get them. They do hide very, very well.

I really need to finish the rearing station. It gets a bit difficult to break down a tank while keeping the others going. I'm thinking of getting a vanity light to where I can use CFL bulbs. The question with that would be if it will generate enough heat to keep the temp up in the tanks. Time to go on a scavenger hunt.

Will be ordering fresh phyto cultures as well to replenish them. I've gotten a little be lax with it and it hasn't done as well.


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Congrats on your ongoing project. Remember a famous quote:

"I have not failed 1,000 times. I have successfully discovered 1,000 ways to NOT make a light bulb."

Keep it up!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thank you sir. The good thing is that I don't see it as failure. It's learning.

Interesting observation just now. I went down to wrap things up for the evening and did a check in on the zoea. It appears that they are all dead! Very strange in that there has hardly been any salt added to the tank as yet. I'm a little confused at this. I'm wondering if it could have anything to do with capturing them and then transferring? Not sure what to think. I have isolated one berried female in a rearing tank so we'll see where this brood takes us.


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> I'm thinking of getting a vanity light to where I can use CFL bulbs.


Would this work,







? All sockets work and with the buttons you can switch which ones are on. It's flexible also.:icon_wink


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Something like that...yep.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Check on the Amano ladies this morning....bad. They both dropped all their eggs with very few hatchings. Very odd on this one. Have to go back and review to see if I may have missed something. Could have been due to all the activity going around the tanks with constantly moving females in and out. Just a possibility. Back to the main tank and we'll wait til next time. 

Ninja ladies still holding theirs. I'll move two more into the rearing tanks and see what we get.

New phyto cultures ordered to replenish the stock. Going to go back to the original (4) specimens instead of (2).


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

It appears that all the Amano eggs that are going to hatch have do so. I'm thinking of combining the two groups as they are not overly large in numbers. Phyto will be introduced today as they are flushed out to sea. 
The Ninja's are still holding theirs.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

There's enough zoea in both tanks to have two test groups. Looks to be a few hundred in each tank. Group A is being washed out to sea currently. Unfortunately I am only set up to drip sea water one tank at a time. Time to hit lowes for more tubing and ramp this part of the project up. Wonder how well a 4way gang valve will hold up to salt water?

Might run out of time this evening to wash the second group out. What I will do if time permits is to get it started with just the phyto cocktail. Then tomorrow I'll continue filling the tank with the full sea water.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Zoea doing well. I did a slight increase in the current. It doesn't look like it is throwing them around but does appear to be keeping things moving better. This round included 1 cup of phyto cocktail. The water is not as green to start with. My aim is to hit upon the right amount where the phyto will actually grow with the zoea and then taper out at the end of the zoea planktonic cycle.

I'll start trying to develop the test rearing containing using the 2liter bottles. The idea behind that is the funnel shaped bottom (inverted bottle) should keep both zoea and phyto suspended and in constant movement. I have some ideas in my head so we'll see if I can make one happen and see how it performs. Capacity wise, the amount of water will be about the same. Space will be smaller on the horizontal plane which should greatly decrease dead space.

Next Amano lady is now with eggs.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Zoes are doing fine at the moment. I've noticed some hanging at the bottom in the dead space. Not a good sign. I think with the smaller horizontal space, it will keep things suspended better. But...then again....it could still be my lighting not being intense enough to penetrate the phyto. I'll be evaluating the lighting more this weekend.

New phyto cultures arrived. Sterilized the bottles and tubes and have started new cultures. One a plus note....the refractometer has proven itself well. So much more accurate than a hydrometer. Mixing more salt water for storage. I'm going to use a couple of 2.5g jugs to store the water in. This should make things a little easier as I will probably be using more water with more specimens and phyto.


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## 10galfornow (May 13, 2011)

FDNY911 said:


> That is actually pretty interesting. Nature is beyond us.


nature IS us.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Back from holiday and getting things all squared away. Washing out the zoea tanks and will be moving females over to them. I'll move over (2) Amano's and (2) ninja's today. I'm going to try to work on building the permanent station as well.

Most of the phyto is growing well. The Isochrysis is growing green again. I thought this phyto was a golden brown algae. I'm trying to contact the supplier for verifcation. The Dunaliella is slow going but looks like it is finally getting established. Cultures may be ready to split just in time for the new zoea.

I'll also get the O. Cocama tank finished and then restock it with C. Propinqua to get them back to where they need to be for the project. I've set up a different tank for the Red Nose with less current so that should keep them happy.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Busy day in store for today. I'm currently waiting for the cable guy to show up so as you know....that means I got plenty of time to work with.

Amano's: One lady has started hatching her eggs. There is a couple dozen zoea floating about with still a ton more to hatch. The other lady looks as if hers will hatch any day now as well.

Propinqua: Finally found a berried female. Awesome. I'll move her into isolation shortly. I don't have many of these guys left but getting ready to get some more in.

Ninja's: There are a few berried ladies in the tank. These guys breed very rapidly. Only thing is that I don't know how long they have been berried. I'm going to try to house two ladies together and just hope the hatching times will be close together. If not, I stand the chance of loosing an entire batch.

Harvesting phyto cultures today. Will be making up a new cocktail mix. New specimens of Isochrysis and D. salinia have arrived. My last two didn't fare well under culturing so have to reestablish them. I also just recently discovered that I have the C. Iso strain. While this one should work just fine, I'm looking to get the T. Iso strain. I have a lead on it now so hopefully that will pan out.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

What a day today! Got home a few minutes ago. Two and half hours sitting in traffic. Bad accident. So I'm already in a foul mood by the time I walk in the door. Start my normal routine of checking in on things and find my Propinqua lady dumped all her eggs. After one day! Grrrr! What a bum deal.

Cleaned out the tank that she was going into and will transfer another Amano lady in there. 

Started washing a batch of zoea out to sea. I'm going for something a little different this time. I'm gonna shoot for a salinity of 1.018 on this round. Need to eliminate some of the lower salinities. I'm also going to try a different method on the air. I took a short piece of tubing and drilled some small holes in it. Going to place that on the end of the bubbler and see if I can't get some better tank movement as well as increase in the oxygen in the water. I'm also going to control the feeding more this time as opposed to just dropping a a bit in the tank and letting it ride.

Dinner time so I'll update more later.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Stopped the salt drip into the tank for the eve. Took a quick reading and the level is at 1.012 at the moment. Little ways to go and I will restart the drip tomorrow. Another thing I'm trying...I turned the light out instead of running 24 hrs. Main reason is that the tank next to it, the female hasn't hatched out her eggs yet. We'll see where it gets us tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Turned the light on this morning and all looks well. The other female had a full hatching last night so now both tanks are full of zoea. I'll clean out the unhatched eggs and get the new batch washed out to sea this evening.

One thing that slipped my mind during this experiment is the temperature. With the A/C running, the basement temp is around 68. I don't believe that is going to be good. I may have to rethink things with the light and just run it 24x7 again. The only difference with this round will be the amount of food available in the tank. If I limit it more, the amount of light available will be greater which may help (hopefully) keep the zoea suspended longer. 

Still working on a better water current idea as well. Have a couple of ideas floating about. One of those sounds interesting involving some PVC piping (idea was presented to me via another member here).

Going to be takind daily salinity checks as well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Turned lights on this morning and all looks well still. Zoea floating about nicely.

I think I stressed the last female out when I tried catching her. She dropped all her eggs yesterday and a few hatched out. I didn't think she had been expecting that long. Didn't think I was too stressful when I caught her. I have a nice gentle routine I use. I'll see what may happen with the rest of those eggs. Otherwise, I catch the zoea and place them in one of the other tanks.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Salinity in both Amano tanks is almost at 1.018. Have a little bit more to go to get there. A little slower than I wanted to get there at but seems to be ok for the moment. Lights on this morning find the zoea still doing well. Water is not green from phyto as yet. I just hope I'm not starving them. I'm adding roughly 1.5mL of phyto/day. So when the lights are out, they huddle up to any area where they see light. Since the phyto station is directly under them, they are at the front of the tanks in the morning. Once I turn the lights on, that's when I feed. I place the phyto right where they are at. That should provide for quick eating before everything gets moved away by the current. The fact that I haven't seen any zoea hanging out near the bottom is a little encouraging. Still very early yet. I have adjusted the air tubes just a bit as well to where both are a couple of inches away from each other. This has provided a very nice current and keeping things moving nicely. I'm still going to work on a small bubble wall as well with hopefully smaller bubbles for increased O2 staturation.

Another thing I'm going to do during this round is perform a water change. I'm going to do this at Day 5. Depending on the development of the zoea, I will do this every (5) days. Salinity level will be maintained at 1.018.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Zoea progressing well still with this new round of testing. <knocks on simulated wood> Lights on this morning and everyone moving about nicely. Started noticing a few of them really start to zip around. This was right after I fed this morning so I'm curious if this was greedy feeding behavior.  As I watch these two groups more, I'm seeing more activity out them than groups of past. I watch them go through movements such as curling up into a "c" form and then straightening back out and floating in the current. I would see it from time to time in the other batches but those pretty much just floated around or hung at the bottom.

And speaking of current, I think I have a really good one established now. To date, I still haven't found any zoea hanging out in the bottom sections of the tank. Before I would notice groups of them bouncing around in the corners or at the bottom side panes. <again knocking on simulated wood> 

As the zoea are appearing to be healthy with just the small amount of phyto I'm feeding, I am starting to wonder if I should begin some alternate feeds such a Spirulina. I'm thinking that after I do the water change tomorrow, I will feed both phyto and a comparable amount of Spirulina. The question I would have is would they phyto be too small for them and they need something a little bigger or they will still be eating the phyto just fine and enjoy a bigger particle feed as well? 

My salinity is swinging just a bit too. With evap and phyto feeding (as small as that is), I tested it at 1.020 yesterday. Made an immediate adjustment to get it back to 1.018. I do need to conduct a side test here to get the proper salinity of the phyto before feeding. I'm culturing at 1.026 and thus feeding at that same level. Granted 1.5mL isn't that much but again with that and evap, it's obviously causing the swing. So another question I pose is whether I make this adjust at harvest time when I put the phyto in the fridge or just wait until I feed the smaller amount? The latter of course would depend on me getting the proper ratio of phyto mix to fresh water but a relatively easy experiment to conduct.

Now on to a sad note. The last Amano female that I moved over, the one that immediately dropped her eggs after moving, she unfortunately is dieing.  I discovered her yesterday in the main tank (one day after her return ot the tank) on her side and color was an orangish hue to her. But not expired yet. I got some fresh tank water from another tank and moved her into a holding chamber in hopes that she will rebound. I found her this morning still alive and original color back but still listless on her side. I also noticed that she still had eggs under the first segment of the carriage. Hopeing for the best but expecting the end game.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Great news! The little lady looks like she's a gonna pull through! YAY! Did a water change yesterday in the specimen container she is in. For a spell she was standing right side up but from time to time would either be on her back or side. This morning, she is standing again and moving around nicely. She has even ate a little bit of the flakes I put in there for her. I'm not going to move her for several more days though just to ensure she's 100%. I feel so much better.

Big day today for the zoea. Lights came on and all still doing great. Today is the first water change in the zoea tanks. I toyied with the idea of only doing this on one tank but decided to go ahead and do both. The new water is aerating as I type and tested at 1.016. I'll check it again before I do the water change but that should be fine with the daily swings of the tanks and should balance right out.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Didn't get to the water change yesterday but will be doing it right after I'm done with this update. Still progressing and haven't seen any casulties or groups hanging out at the bottom. Lights on this morning and they are moving about nicely. Didn't feed this time since I am doing the WC. Will add some phyto and Spirulina once the WC is complete. Once I do the water change, I'm going to start logging some data such as temp and salinity readings in the morning and then evening before the lights go out. Want to get a better understanding of the swings that are occuring and see just how much the values are. I'll try and sneak a pH value in there as well. Just curious as to what that may be.

The Amano lady that I thought I was going to loose continues to get better. I found her swimming around in the container today. She is more and more active every day. I do about 80% water changes in her container every day. I think a couple more days and she will be ready to return to the tank. I won't worry about the few eggs she is still carrying. Her health is more important than that. 

Found another female berried today as well. I plan on moving her early this time. I think this may be why they are not getting full hatches.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Bit to update today.

Amano Zoea - seem to be doing ok. I did suffer some losses and I think that it may be due to leaving the light out longer than normal. I let it go for two hours longer in the darkness. Definately time for a timer on these tanks. The others seem to be fine. One tank is greener and cloudier than the other which I find a bit unusual as well. Not sure what would be causing that. I'm going to try to siphon the bottom of these tanks to get the build up out of there.

Amano lady - I am acclimating her slowly back to her original tank. She looks pretty good and has been swimming around. I think it's time for her to go back to her clan.

Ninja's - Seem to be in a constant state of berries. I keep finding zoea in the tank as well. I need to find some more 1g tanks to add to the project.

Propinqua - Another berried lady found today and she is loaded. I am seperating her in just a few minutes to see if she drops her eggs. I've been dealing with them dropping after one day. I'm wondering if the Red Nose may be causing this ... possible crossing??


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Very interesting discovery today. The tank that the one Amano lady dropped her eggs, well, I never paid it any attention. I felt the amount of zoea and the dropped eggs wasn't going to amount to anything. This tank didn't even have an air bubbler running on it. I brought the tank upstairs last night and placed it on the counter ultimately forgetting about it. So today I went to clean out the tank so I could transfer the Propinqua into. Well...SURPRISE...I look in there and I see a couple hundred zoea floating about in this murky cruddy water! Wow. And here I thought all of these were lost.

I'm trying to catch all that I can and place them in two rearing tanks I already have going. I will have to adjust the salinity again as I'm adding freshwater to the mix. But, I'm going to do a partial water change to offset the amount of water in the tank.

What a pleasant surprise. Now I know this is going to throw off the age of the zoea in the tanks but I wasn't working by age anyway. If I get to that point where they start to morph, I'll be removing the ones that do anyway.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water changes completed in the tanks. Spirulina added. There are a few more zoea to try and capture. I get a few everytime I go back down there. Will adjust the salinity back to 1.018 and we should be good to go til day 15. <crosses fingers>


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Approaching the two week mark for some of the zoea. All continues to progress well. You can make out the size differences between the ones that were in the tank already and the ones just added. That's a good sign as the zoea are showing growth. The two water changes so far appear to have no impact which again is a good sign. Next wc is scheduled for Sunday. Salinity being maintained at 1.018. Very minor shifting which I'm attributing to evaporation. I add enough fresh water daily to keep it stable.

The Propinqua female is still holding her eggs. Awesome. That ended the streak of dropping eggs after 24hrs. She will be moved over to a rearing tank today.

Ninja's are still holding as well. I did find zoea in the main tank. Not surprising anymore. The females are in a constant state of being berried it seems. Being small shrimp, they hide very well. I don't have enough tanks to isolate all the females as yet.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Went to move the Propinqua lady to the rearing and discovered she dropped her eggs. Grrrrrrrr! Placed her back in the tank and cleaned out the specimen container. Glancing around, I found another berried Prop. Awesome deal. I'm in the middle of water changes at the moment and will immediately move her to isolation. She's holding more eggs than the last female had.

Believe it or not, I still found some zoea alive in the stagnant tank. I was really surprised. I did my best to remove those remaining zoea and divide them into the rearing tanks. That tank has been cleaned out and another Amano will be placed into it. Get her in there early this time and see if I get a better hatching.

Water change in the ninja tank as both of them are still holding their eggs.

All looking well. Continuing to make progess.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Caught in the act. And what do you supose is going on here eh? 










I went down to check on things this morning and saw the males swimming around frantically. Then she came out of hiding and....well....the rest is history. lol

I kinda skewed my test on the zoea. Got home really late last night and didn't turn the light off on their tanks. I'm pretty sure this didn't impact them at all but does mess with the test of turning the lights off every night. All looks well this morning. Water is getting more green which is getting hard to look into to see how many zoea may be floating about. Water change on the schedule for tomorrow so hopefully that will be ok.

Ninja's and Propinqua still holding onto their eggs. I would expect the Ninja's to be hatching out any time now.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

getting frisky ....James you're the man! This is a lot of work.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thanks. It is a chore and sure hope I can be successfull with it. Still working on it. Every lit bit of info helps. Still have a lot of items on the list to test out.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Zoea continue to grow the best that I can tell. I've noticed that most of them are changing color to a brownish color. Still hard to get a good look at them due to the cloudiness of the phyto and spirulina. Performed a 50% water change in both tanks. Salinity still holding at 1.018.


I tried snapping some pics and even shoot a video but it just didn't work.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I hate to ask, but you've got enough species going that I'm now cornfused. Which zoea are doing well for you right now?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

jasonpatterson said:


> I hate to ask, but you've got enough species going that I'm now cornfused. Which zoea are doing well for you right now?


Sry...the only zoea I currently have are Amano's still. Ninja's are still holding their eggs and Propinqua still dropping eggs after a couple of days.

I'll be more descriptive in the species I refer to. Thanks for bringing that up.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Man...forgot to turn off the lights again last night. Definately got a get my timer for a more controlled test. I don't think it hurst anything which is a good thing. 


Amanos:
Fed combo of phyto and spirulina this evening. The big zoea are really moving around nicely. I'm curious to know how many might be in these tanks. It's too murky to get a good feel for it. I'm debating about starting Golden Pearls now. I may do this at next water change. Might even just do a tid bit tomorrow.


Ninja's: Surprising they haven't hatched out yet. This is the longest I've noted them carrying eggs. The eggs are also a more pinkish color at the moment. I'm wondering if this is a bad sign or if they turn this color prior to hatching. Did a water change in their tank.


Propinqua: No carrying females.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Only a few Amano zoea remain in each tank it looks like. A little discouraging but at the same time encouraging. The zoea that I can see are big, they are brown and hopefully these will be the first ones to make it. This is the furthest along we've been in the project. That is the encouraging part. I'll have to go back and take a look at the data to see if I can pick up on anything. One thing that immediately comes to mind are the days that I left the lights on instead of turning them off. The days that they were left on were late into the round which is why I'm thinking this may attribute.


As for the water changes, I think the zoea did very well with them and it turned out to be a big plus. I kept the gunk from building up on the bottom to some extent. I want to see if i can manage that even further for the next round.


Now the question is, should I consolidate the zoea to one tank or not? At the moment, I'm going to let things ride and just see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Starting with the Amano zoea. I gave the tanks one final water change. I think this one will be the last until we know what will happen. Either the remaining zoea will make it or unfortunately, they will perish. I do feel pretty comfortable though. After draining the water, I got see better. There are a few that are a nice size and nice brownish/red color. The tanks remain cloudy after the wc. This could pose a problem if/when they morph. I'll have to be able to see them as shrimp to be able to pull them out. The unknown for me is to know how long a shrimpet will be able to survive in the brack conditions?

On to the Ninja's. When I first checked them when I got home, all looked well. I did need to do a water change in their tank as well. Got everything done with the Amano's and some other tanks and went to start working on the Ninja's. I started a siphon and started to pull the gunk from the bottom. Something caught my attention. Zoea! Awesome! I immediately stopped the siphon. Then I got a flashlight to take a better look. One female had all her eggs hatch. The other one is still holding but hiding behind the airstone. She will release hers anytime now.

With that, I removed the one female and acclimated her back to the main tank. I scraped the bottom with a card and then using a dropper removed the buildup. I still performed the water change with my regular routine with zoea. Filled it back with fresh tank water since the other lady is still in there. Now the real test. Lights will go out tonight. We'll see how they do. Hopefully all will be fine and the others will hatch tonight. If so, they all will be washed out to sea tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

This is a continuation update from last night actually. I went downstairs to turn off the lights on the zoea tanks. I got to Ninja's and noticed the other female looked a little "empty". Broke out the flashlight and confirmed that all her eggs had hatched as well. Removed her and acclimated her back to the tank. I went ahead and added a little of the phyto cocktail for them and at 2300hrs, the lights went out.

This morning when the lights came on, all is well. There are hundreds of "dust particles" (that's how small the ninja zoea are) floating about. I have the zoea tank located next to the main. Will relocate it to where the other tanks are today, drop the water level to four cups and then begin the salt transformatin. 

This is by far the biggest group of zoea I've worked with to date. I'm going to shoot for the same salinity as the Amano's at 1.018. My initial goal was actually going to be lower but I liked what I saw in the Amano's even though there aren't very many of them left.

Progress indeed.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Buy a $9 timer for the lights. lol. Always seems like you forget to turn the lights on or off at some point during this adventure.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Excellent! Congrats on the large hatch, I hope those kids know how much work you're putting into this.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

GeToChKn said:


> Buy a $9 timer for the lights.


Yep..aleady on my list for next time we hit wally world. Which will be tomorrow.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

james0816 said:


> Yep..aleady on my list for next time we hit wally world. Which will be tomorrow.


Good stuff. Always seems like that is 1 factor when you notice something different or a big change.

Congrats too on getting this far, I'm still waiting for my first batch of cherries to hatch, so what you're doing seems like a lot of work.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Little after weekend update here:

Amano's: Last remaining zoe are still hangin in there. Big and a nice dark color. I still have some of the smaller ones that I added from the one batch I thought was lost as well. If my calculations are correct, the big guys should be morphing any day now. One tank is more clear than the other at this time. I'm pretty much done with these tanks until they morph {crosses fingers}. At that point, I'll combine the smaller ones into one tank and see how they progress.

Ninja's: All is still looking well with these guys. They are a little bigger than a dust particle now. Something to note with their tank. I didn't immediately move it over to where the others are so I just rigged up an air stone instead and have been running off of that. It seems that the stone is creating a much better current. I may have to play with this more and see if I'm getting better current results. This morning they were fed a mix of Phyto and Spirulina.

Propinqua: Found a berried female yesterday and immediately moved her into isolation. This morning, I changed her water and will be moving her to a rearing tank today. I'm going to try and be extra cautious with her since I've been losing all my Prop eggs of late.

In the next couple of weeks, the new improved phyto cocktail will be ready. The other two cultures are finally settling in and getting established. This will make the cocktail a (4) phyto mix which should cover all the nutritional bases.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Morning check when the lights came on and all continues to be well. Still no Amano shrimpets as yet. The big zoea continue to drift about. I fed (or should say offered) them a small amount of Golden Pearls last night. We are at the one month mark for the initial hatching. I'm going to move another Amano female into isolation either today or tomorrow. That will fill all my rearing tanks for now. May just have to bite the bullet and go to Petsmart and buy new ones since I haven't been able to locate similar size containers elsewhere. I'll keep looking all about though.

Ninja's continue to grow. I no longer have to squint to see them drifting. They are approaching one week now. With this batch, I'm going to do water changes every (10) days as opposed to the (5) with the Amano's. With the ladies holding the eggs about as long as the Amano's, I'm expecting the same time frame for them to morph into shrimpets. I'm curious how the much smaller size of the Ninja's may play into things. One other interesting item to note with the Ninja's; I have their rearing tank located right next to the main tank. With that, the light isn't sitting directly on top of the tank as the others so this is keeping the temps lower. To be honest, I don't believe the light is at a level where it will impact the temp at all so this tank is strictly sitting at room temp which is around 68F. Much lower than I would like. I'll take a temp reading today and see where it actually is.

The Propinqua female is still holding her eggs as of this morning. Still early yet but we are in that window where they have been dropping their eggs of late.

I think this weekend I need to focus on building a new station to house the rearing tanks and phyto cultures. Will make things much easier.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still no shrimpies yet from the Amano's. Zoea continue to float around and such. If they all morph, I believe I'm looking at around 20.

Took a peek in on the Propinqua lady and it looks like she has dropped her eggs agian.  Very confusing. I'll verify this afternoon. I noticed yesterday that the other two ladies are berried as well. I'll run another gambit of water tests and see if anything stands out. TDS should be nice and low with the new substrate and I doubt the water went to the hard side. {scratches head}


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Confirmed today that the Propinqua female did drop her eggs. Dang! Cleaned out the tank and moved the other two females in there. They were berried at the same time so if by some minor miracle their eggs hatch, they will hatch together. Quite frustrating it is. I ran the water test and all water parms are spot on. TDS is even < 100. No clue as to why this keeps happening. Maybe there is some type of stress going on. I have moved their rearing tank over to where the Amano's are so maybe that will provide a little more peace.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Busted! The Propinqua ladies aren't dropping their eggs....They are eating them! WTH! I just sat there and was watching the two ladies I have in isolation and they are picking the eggs from their carriage. Now why in the world are they doing this?? If anyone has any clues on this, I'm all ears. Never had to deal with something like this before. I'm sure they won't have any eggs come morning.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I've got a yellow shrimp that does the same. She berries with a huge clutch of eggs, then picks them off one by one and eats the things. No idea why.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Been a few days so let's get caught up.


Amano's: I wound merging tanks today. One tank only had (2) zoea left so I moved them to the other side where there are a few more. After I moved the two, I did a minor cleaning and a water change. Fed a small amount of Spirulina and Golden Pearls. Some of these zoea are a good 3/16 or larger. Still nice and redish color. Getting pretty fast as well if I must say. I cleaned out the empty tank and moved over another expecting female.


Ninja's: Still have a few zoea in their tank. Leaving it where it was obviously turned out to be a bad idea. Was not ideal conditions but tried it anyway. I did feed them a small amount of Spirulina as well.


Propinqua: Moved the one female that dropped (ate) her eggs back to the main tank. Still have one female holding. I need to clean the tank but I'm affraid if I go in there it may stress her out and she will dump the eggs.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Lights on and all is well after the water change yesterday. Found some exo's floating in the water column. Great sign. Still no shrimpets as yet. Patience is a virtue. I'm just a little excited though that I have got them this far though. I would have liked to have greater numbers, but for a first batch, I can deal with it. It just lets me know I'm on the right track.

Gotta a quick glance at the Propinqua lady. Doesn't look good. It appeared that her under carriage is fuzzy. Very bad sign. If she doesn't expel the eggs, it could be bad. After seeing that, I am starting to question the viability of the Props I have. I do have a fresh group arriving so hopefully that will get them back on the right track.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Amano's are still zoea. I would have thought from all my readings that they would have morphed by now. Still alive too in case you're wondering. They don't like touching each other. As soon as they do, it's a major "twitch" and scatter in opposite directions. 

Only a few Zebra zoea remain. What I may do with these guys, is move them to a smaller container and see what happens. Then I will clean that one out and move over two more ladies. That rearing tank will then be located next to the others. I can officially call this test a failure.

The Propinqua female is still holding the eggs. They looked a little less "fuzzy" this morning but still abnormal to say the least. The gal I moved back to the main tank looks to be in trouble. She's trying to molt it appears but can't seem to get the exo off. This could be bad.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Came home yesterday and found the Propinqua female had expired.  That was my first shrimp lost due to a molting issue (or lack there of). The female carrying the eggs still has them. I'm not really sure what she is going to do but need to give her a chance at either a full term or a drop. Either way, she is still doing fine.

Didn't have time to check on the zoea this morning as I had to rush into work. Only had time to turn on the lights. They were all doig fine last night. I watched a couple of them kind of settle on the bottom on some plankton/algae build up and then they jetted off again. I watched in anticipation thinking that was going to be the morph I had been waiting for. But alas...not yet.

I won't be moving any more shrimp or zoea until after our guest (Miss Irene) has left. If we lose power, I don't want to risk losing a viable female. I'd rather lose the zoea and try again later.

Water changes will be done in all tanks tomorrow.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Found these little shrimp in my shrimp tank...anybody know what they might be? 



















Not the best of pics since they are very small. I found three of them at the moment.

Oh...by the way...they are Amanos!!! WooHoo!


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

That sooooooooooo rocks. Congrats, boy have you earned it.

DK


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

> Congrats, boy have you earned it.


Yes he has!










Hope you cracked a beer or popped a cork.


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## khemo (Nov 9, 2005)

Great job mate!

Congratulations on your determination, persistence and now success. Also thank you for taking the time to document your journey for all of us to read, enjoy and learn from. It has certainly inspired me to have a go with the group of amanos I have.

So what do you think was the determining factor(s) in your recent success? Was it the improved circulation - keeping the zoes off the bottom and keeping them suspended?; Introduction of water changes?; Turning the lights off at night? 

.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

khemo said:


> So what do you think was the determining factor(s) in your recent success? Was it the improved circulation - keeping the zoes off the bottom and keeping them suspended?; Introduction of water changes?; Turning the lights off at night?


Thanks all. Just going to call it a partial success for the moment. Getting them to this stage was the hard part. Now I have to focus on getting them to the juvie stage before I declare it. Even though the numbers are pretty low, I have collected a ton of data during this round of testing.

A couple more theories have also blossomed too. First, when the zoea start losing their red coloring (as pictured in previous post), that is when they will begin their transition. I've still only noticed the three that are morphing for the moment and they are almost all clear as we know Amanos to be. There are a few free floating zoea that look like they are losing their red so I'm anticipating seeing more on the bottom in the days to come.

Another interesting note is the size of the zoea. There are the larger zoea that are a bright red color. Again, based on what we know from the adult Amanos in relation to size, I'm going to go out on a limb to say that the larger zoea will be the females. Unless they just turn out to be super Amanos. 

They aren't quite ready to begin the transition to freshwater as yet. Before turning the lights off, I will find them on the bottom or sides sitting on top of a phyto/algae build up. When the lights come on in the morning, everyone is free floating again. I'm not quite certain they are strong enough to begin their migration upstream. Once I can determine that, then they are going to begin the journey. That will be a slower process than when they were introduced to salt. I have another theory on that one but won't bore you with the details.

As for the determining factor, that's a tough one actually. I threw so much change for this round of testing that it may be hard to say with certainty. I know, I broke the cardinal rule for experimentation in doing that. From the circulation, to photo period and even feeding. What I think I can almost safely say is that the temp might not be as big a factor as others may suggest. The only heat source is that light directly on top. Once it goes out, the temps naturally drop of course. This should best mimic conditions in the wild.

I actually have plans for two more tweaks for the next round to help combat the zoea syndrome. I want to look at increased oxygenation of the water for one. I want to get a fine mist of air coming into the tank. I just have the regular bubbler wand which is keeping the current up but not sure how well it is actually oxygenating the water. I would really like to achieve something like the micro bubbles from a CO2 nano diffuser but the air pumps I have aren't rated high enough for that.

The second thing will be the feeding. Now that all four phyto cultures have gotten themselves established, the nutritional value just doubled for the zoea. Added to that will be the continued use of Spirulina. I'm also debating of adding a small amount of 50micron Golden Pearls at the 2-3week mark instead of at the end. From what I've seen, the zoea are big enough at that point to feast on them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Now ... on to the others....

Ninja's: All zoea are lost. Tank to be cleaned and will move another female into isolation. I knew that this was going to be a failure but figured I had to at least conduct it to eliminate options.

Propinqua: The little lady is still carrying some eggs. While not as many as before, but some none the less. It does appear that she is now maintaining herself as the fuzzy area has disappeared. The question will be, will the remaining eggs be ok or will she eliminate them as well?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Amano shrimpies still looking good. All three have been accounted for. Looks like they have lost all their red now. This may be the sign I was looking for. As expected, I noticed a couple more that are in color transition and trying to grab on to the wall. Not sure exactly how many remain in here but progress is being made.

The Propinqua lady had taken care of herself. The eggs are all gone. She is acclimating back to main tank now. That tank has been cleaned up and a Ninja lady has moved in. This tank is on the shelf with the others so it can fall in line with the standard routines.

The old Ninja zoea tank was as well cleaned out and another Ninja lady moved in.

There is another Amano lady carrying but no tank space available for her at the moment. On that note, I found a place online that sells them (the small tanks I use) rather cheaply. They were $4. I was able to get (4) plus shipping for the price of what three would cost me here. Kewlness. They should be in any time now.

*EDIT* Added the disclaimer that the $4/ea is for the tanks not the actual Amano shrimp.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

the amanos were $4 each? wow! I need to charge more!

This is a fascinating read!! Fingers crossed for mroe success!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

msjinkzd said:


> the amanos were $4 each? wow! I need to charge more!
> 
> This is a fascinating read!! Fingers crossed for mroe success!


lol...no...the little tanks I use for my projects are $4 each. 

Sorry for the confusion.

I had/have an excellent source as to where I got my breeding stock from. <nudge><nudge>


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

LOL!!!

I have another caridina species coming in this week that is larvael but resembles a bumble bee shrimp. I cannot remember the name offhand (sorry!!!) but its another I may have to send your way to play around with!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

msjinkzd said:


> LOL!!!
> 
> I have another caridina species coming in this week that is larvael but resembles a bumble bee shrimp. I cannot remember the name offhand (sorry!!!) but its another I may have to send your way to play around with!


Sounds awesome! I welcome them with open tanks.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

A few Amano shrimpets moving nicely along the walls of the tank this morning when the light came on. I watched them for a few minutes before leaving. I noticed no red coloration on these guys at all and they are walking very well. I think I'm going to try and catch these three guys today and begin their transition to freshwater. Currently debating of their food during this time. Since the tank they will be going in isn't covered in algae or plankton, I will need to present them with something. I think I will add a pinch of the same powder I use for the Oto fry and maybe add a smidge of Spirulina. There will be daily water changes of around 50%.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I have temporarily met my match! This little jokers are fast! I mean lightening fast! Both Plans A and B have already been thwarted. I may have to resort to attempting to use a net. Problem with that is that I may also snag a free floater which would be bad. Hmmmmm..... More to follow.....

New tanks came in today. Awesome deal! I can now expand a bit but it won't be for another day or so. I'm thinking of moving one more Ninja and another Amano. I want to reserve a couple of tanks for the new Propinqua when they arrive.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Turkey baster has prevailed! lol

Caught all three shrimpets and moved them to a smaller tank. In that tank I added a bit of Spirulina and Golden Pearls. There is an air bubbler on it as well. I may give way to an air stone for better oxygenation. After dinner I will drain some of the water and start having them swim upstream.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

woot


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Lights on this morning and all three Amano shrimpets still doing good after the first drop in salinity. I'll take a reading today before doing another water change with fresh water. I'm going to introduce a very small amount of flake food at this time.

Remaining zoea are still free floating. There were a couple that were on the wall but moved off shortly after the light came on. This is where the disadvantage of tanks v. nature comes in play and having to catch the little buggers one at a time after they morph instead of them just swimming happily upstream on their own. Would be nice to be able to migrate a whole tank to freshwater at one time. 

Ninja and Amano ladies still carrying eggs. Will need to do some tank maintenance on thier tanks to clean up the poo and uneaten food.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Funny story here...As you know, last night I moved over three shrimpets into the container to migrate to freshwater. In the process of moving them over, I checked the container and only found two. This was after I "thought" I had all three moved in. Crap! One must have escaped somehow. I checked the turkey baster and the jar, not there. Checked the container once again and only counted two. I went to check the tank and I found him on the wall. Ooooooooooook...I recaptured him and placed him back into the container.

Fast forward to today. I go to do the water change in the container. Check on the shrimpets prior to to make sure all is well. Guess what...I count (4)! LOL. Kewlness. So...there are actually (4) shrimpets swimming upstream at the moment. Check of the tank and to the best I can tell, we still have free floaters. They are spending more time on the walls but not quite ready.

Check of the salinity before the water change was 1.013 down from 1.018. There is no rhyme or reason or weighted method for the transition. I am keeping it above 50% water change for a slow migration. I'll keep testing the water each day for progress.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Best pic I could get at the moment. 










Between their size and the way the tank is, makes it hard for a good pic. I'll keep trying though.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Good work and amazing dedication!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Update 01-Sep-2011:

Amanos: All is well in shrimplet land. All (4) present and accounted for. Salinity check prior to today's water change was 1.009. Remaining zoea continue to be free floating. I'm contimplating doing a water change in the zoea tank being how long it's been. Not sure though considering the zoea are close to morphing. Amano lady still holding eggs. Some nice diatom growth developing in her tank. The zoea should have plenty to work on when they grow up.

Ninjas: We have a hatching! Round Two of the Ninja project has officially begun. Mom is acclimating back to the main tank. Cleared out the debris and exo from her molt and drained down the water. The zoea are currently being washed out to sea as I type. I will add a few drops of phyto cocktail just to get the phyto started in the tank.

Propinqua: No updates to report. New group has yet to arrive. Will check with supplier to get a status.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

what size are they now? (the amanos)


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

msjinkzd said:


> what size are they now? (the amanos)


iddy biddy.  Sry...couldn't resist.

They are about 1/4".


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

cool  Was just curious as to their size compared to high order shrimp at "birth".


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I would say by the time they morph to shrimp form, they are just slightly bigger than regular shrimpets.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Turned lights on this morning and found one of the Amano shrimpets turning a red color. Not liking that too much. Wondering if I may have changed out too much water yesterday? Rats! Hopefully it will be ok. Will know more later today.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

As expected...I lost all four Amano shrimpets. Dang! The bad part is....I knew it. I'm now wondering if I should have tried adding some salt water back to the tank to minimize the effect? I'm getting ready to get a salinity reading to see just how bad I goofed. Just goes to show you, you need to pay attention when your working with stuff like this. No sense beating myself up for it. What's done is done and I can't change it. I am going to do a water change in the zoea tank. I'll check the other tanks afterwards.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, bugger


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Was reading on one site that once they start walking around forwards instead of backwards they are ready to start the fresh water transition.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Yeah...it was a stupid mistake on my part and we'll chalk it up to lack of attention. Major human error. Now that I think about it, I got distracted when the Ninja's hatched and I paid them more attention during that time while the water change was going on in the Amano tank.

GeToChKn...I believe you are correct. Upon my observations....this occurs when they lose the red coloration completely. I have watched them grab onto the walls and floor and walk around while still having some red color. However, the next morning, they will be back to the free floating form. It wasn't until they lost all the red color that they were actually what I would consider a "real" shrimpet.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water changes in the zoea tanks complete. It looks like I have (6) Amano zoea left. Nice hefty sized ones too. Just waiting for them to morph. I'll be feeding them a little more Spirulina and Golden Pearls this evening. Yes, I'm still kicking myself for over doing it on the shrimpets. Other Amano lady still holding eggs. I'll examine her closely tomorrow to see if I can get a feel for the anticipated hatching. I will also move another Amano lady into isolation this weekend.

Ninja zoea are now sitting at 1.018 salinity. I fed a bit more phyto this evening. Other Ninja lady is still holding her eggs. If by chance I get to work on the zoea rack this weekend, I will move another Ninja lady into isolation.

Nothing further to report on the Propinqua at this time.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

msjinkzd said:


> awwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, bugger


buggers indeed! I have to get the human error out of the equasion. And actually, it unfortunately turned into a good learning experience. The transition to freshwater absolutely must be a slow transition. A few points drop at a time seems to be the way to go with smaller (< 50%) water changes.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

No new hatchings to report. Both Ninjas and Amanos still holding eggs.

Ninja zoea are still progressing. I'm not liking how I have their tank as I'm only to view about 1/4 of it. I keep saying this but have to get the rack completed.  Fair amount in there just no idear as to how many. Not sure if I mentioned it or not but with this tank, I'm using an air stone instead of the usual bubble wands I have. 

Amano zoea: There are a couple that appear ready to go upstream. I still have a couple of free floaters in there. They are taking their own sweet time. I even have one zoea that is only floating on the top which I find odd. I keep thinking it has expired but everytime I take a bamboo skewer and get close to it, it zips off. Will be fishing out the shrimpets today and start the freshwater acclimation process.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And the battle begins....trying to catch the few Amano shrimpets. Oh what fun!  I got one at the moment. Looks like two more need to be moved. Other zoeas are finally grabbing the bottom but not ready for freshwater yet. Once they are caught, they will start migrating upstream.

Ninja zoea continue to do well. They are scheduled for a water change today. Will get to that in just a bit.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Few updates today. Let's see where to start....

Propinqua: New arrivals came in today. They are acclimating to their tank as I type.

Ninja Zoea: Quite a few zoea still with me. Fed them a mix of Spriulina and Golden Pearls. I'll add a little phyto later on as well. I'm doing something a little different with these guys by attempting to offer the GPs at an earlier age. Just a small fraction so not too bad.

Amano Zoea: Captured one more shrimpet and will try to catch it up to the others that started upstream yesterday. The salinity isn't too far off but have to be very carefull about it. There is one more free floater in the tank. Once he/she morphs that will be a wrap for that test.

Now the fun stuffs...

While mixing the feed for the Ninja zoea (I use fresh salt water for this), I had to restart the syphon in the jug. When I noticed it starting to flow, I fumbled a bit in trying to shut the valve. I was doing this over the tank hold the expecting Amano female. I wound dripping about 1-2ml of salt water in her tank. I then moved the tubing and wound up putting about the same amount in the tank with the expecting Ninja mother! Drat!!!! Very, very small amount so not overly concerned with it.

Fed the Ninja zoea and immediately performed water changes on both the tanks. I'm slowly driping in new water. Just went down to check on things and the water level is perfect for Mrs. Amano and move the tube over to the Ninja lady. I then go and check the Oto tanks for few minutes. Go back to check on the Amano lady and find her water has gotten really cloudy. What in the world??? Closer exam....HATCHLINGS! We have zoea. And a ton of them to boot. Awesome deal. She still has a ton of eggs in her carriage so this is going to be a very large group to work with.

More updates to come.....


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Here's a little video of today's hatching. Mama Amano will come in and you will see the white belly which is the remaining eggs.

My little snow globe. :red_mouth

Amano-Hatching-08SEP2011


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Disaster! Went to turn out the lights and found both females dead! WOW! Unreal! Don't know what to say. Hard to believe that that little amount of salt would have caused that. I'm simply speechless at the moment.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

james0816 said:


> Disaster! Went to turn out the lights and found both females dead! WOW! Unreal! Don't know what to say. Hard to believe that that little amount of salt would have caused that. I'm simply speechless at the moment.


That's odd because I have a parasite infection on some of my cherries and I gave them salt baths before going to paraguard and they seemed fine through it.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

GeToChKn said:


> That's odd because I have a parasite infection on some of my cherries and I gave them salt baths before going to paraguard and they seemed fine through it.


That's a little reassuring but now has me wondering if it may have been the water change too large and too fast. Hmmmm... It was tough.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Lights on this morn and all is well in zoea land. All of the new Amano zoea perked right up and hit the jet stream (a.k.a current via bubblers  ). They will be washed out to sea today. Amano shrimplets doing fine so far on their journey upstream. Another salinity change in order for today.

I saw a berried Amano lady in the main tank that looks like she is close to hatching out. Not sure how I missed her. I'll try and get her moved as well...very, very carefully.

Last nights disaster has definately motivated me to push to get the rack complete. Should have and would have been prevented with better management. I'll be tied up Saturday so will really hit it hard on Sunday. I'll get the tank that had the Ninja lady in it cleaned out and move another female over. No telling how far I would be in this project if I factor out the human error piece of it. I've got some big plans that will aid in the management of these tanks which will mean less "hands on" and will greatly reduce the possibily of error.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Newest batch of Amano zoea being washed out to sea. This will be the second time I use an airstone. It is in combination with a bubbler. So far it has really kept the current nice without being rough on them. Fed about 1.5ml of phyto. Still have the one remaining free floater. I lost one of the Amano shrimpets. Seems getting them back to fresh will be just as challenging. The air is a little different in the tank so less oxygenation. May be a factor but then again, the other still looks good.

Bad news on the Propinqua front. Most of the ones I just got yesterday have already expired. So not happy with this.  Guess the trip was hard on them only thing I can think of being that they went into a well established tank with Props already living in there.

Cleaned out the old Ninja tank and gently moved the other expecting Amano in there. She was very easy to catch. Now the question will be if she will drop any eggs from the transfer or not. Preferrably not. Not sure how far along she is but looks like they could hatch very soon.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think the last remaining free floating Amano zoea has finally decided it's time to grow up. I noticed him as a shrimpet on Saturday and as of this morning he is doing just fine and clear color. Ready to go upstream and hopefully join the others. Speaking of which, they are doing well. Still making their journey on a different time scale. I'm going very slow this time. The salinity has only been dropped just a few points since the migration started.

New Amano zoea are still doing well. Lights on this morning and the rush was on to hit the currents. Within a few seconds, all zoea were back free floating. I fed about 1.5ml of phyto mix.

Second Amano lady has had just a few hatch out. I can see just a few zoea floating about. The rest will probably hatch any day now.

On to the Ninja's. I'm starting to question the salinity of these guys. The amount of zoea have really decreased. It's still possible that zoea syndrome has set in, however, with the amount of phyto and algae growing in their tank, the food source should be plentiful. The tank has went to the extreme green side. This may have something to do with it as well. I had this same thing with a batch of Amanos earlier and thought that there wasn't enough light penetrating through.

Propinqua udate. Only (2) remain from the ones I just got. They aren't opaque so I believe these two may just make it.

On tap. Have to move the Amano shrimplet out, get that tank cleaned and then I will move over another Ninja lady. Phyto harvest needs to be done either today or tomorrow. The new phyto mix will now have (3) phytos in the cocktail as the C. Iso is now ready to be harvested. I'm questioning the Dunaliella salina at the moment and trying to find out the "real" strain that has started to grow in the bottle. I'm also wondering if I were to take a small amount of Spirulina and mix it with fresh water, would this keep long in a fridge? Normally I just do this manually everytime but if I already had it prepped, I could just use a dropper to feed to be easier and save time.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Caught the last two Amano shrimpets from the salt tank and moved them to a smaller container. I will slowly move these guys upstream. The other two still are doing ok. They are moving further along their journey to freshwater with a small water change and a feeding. Their tank was cleaned out and a Ninja lady moved in.

As for the Ninja zoea, only a few remain. I think the salinity may be the cause. Next batch of Ninja's will live in a lower salinity.

Second Amano lady is hatching out hers as I type. There are a few dozen eggs at the bottom of the tank. Not sure if those will hatch out or not but we'll see. Definately not as many as the tank next door. It's still early yet so we'll see what transpires.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Interesting addition...went down to shut off the freshwater drip to the Amano's and noticed some zoea in the Ninja tank already. Guess I pulled her out just in time.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

You need to make a video of the eggs hatching.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Jeffww said:


> You need to make a video of the eggs hatching.


That would be kind of kewl. Think I would have to setup a web cam for that though. I've observed the Amano ladies getting on tubes for the bubblers when the hatching starts. I'm curious if this is an instinct type of behavior to get the zoea immediately in the current or not?

Speaking of hatching....

Lights on this morning to find both ladies (Amano and Ninja) have hatched out thier eggs. Looks like the Ninja had 100% while there are still some eggs on the bottom of the tank from the Amano. They will be moved back to thier tanks today and the zoea will be washed out to sea.

Did still see a few Ninja zoea in the other Ninja tank today. No many the best I can though. I'm contimplating trying to remove them and put them in the new tank with the lower salinity since the numbers are low.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Water changes in all the zoea tanks going on right now. A group each of Amano and Ninja's being washed out to sea. The existing zoea tanks will be getting a regular change. Phyto cocktail to be added to all tanks with Spirulina only added to the oldest batch of Amano zoea. The Ninja tank is very dark green. No food source needed there.

Pretty much going to be going with all airstones for these tanks instead of the bubble wands. I think with the stones right in the middle and adjusted properly, the current is picking up everything in the tank. Which could be a good thing.

As for the shrimpets. Gonna need a little more work on this. I may be removing them too soon. I lost two more shrimpets. And the transition is very slow at that. Hmmmm. {insert puzzled look here} But, this project is all about unlocking mysteries right? I'll pay closer attention to the data and may just decide to keep them in the salt for about a week after the morph. Is kind of hard to see if there may be any signs that they are ready to go.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

It might help to intentionally lose a few shrimplets by keeping them in the brackish until they die, then you'd know the outside limit on moving them back to fresh. It could be that they like to molt a few times and grow a bit before heading back upstream. I have to think that in the wild the shrimplets aren't all going to make it back into a freshwater stream within a day or two of metamorphosing, there's bound to be a big window of opportunity for them. 

Not trying to tell you your business, of course.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

jasonpatterson said:


> It might help to intentionally lose a few shrimplets by keeping them in the brackish until they die, then you'd know the outside limit on moving them back to fresh. It could be that they like to molt a few times and grow a bit before heading back upstream. I have to think that in the wild the shrimplets aren't all going to make it back into a freshwater stream within a day or two of metamorphosing, there's bound to be a big window of opportunity for them.
> 
> Not trying to tell you your business, of course.


Not at all kind sir. I welcome all advice.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

All the little zoea made it through the night after the water changes. Salinity still on the rise for the two fresh batches. We'll hit the target numbers today. I would love to be able to get some shots of the size differences. From the batch that is almost a week old compared to the fresh hatchlings, it's about twice the size. The Ninja's could be a bit hard to tell growth due to their overall size. As long as the tanks don't go too green on me, I'll be able to get in some good observation. The airstones are definately making a big impact. The aeration is excellent. I still have a couple of things I want to try so we'll see where it leads me. I now just have to make sure I only use these stones for salt and have another set for fresh when it's just the expecting females in the tank.

One further observation at this point concerning the zoea and survival rates up to the one week period. When I first started, I was taking them to salt a little quick. According to the reseach I've done, this should be fine as well as just dumping them straight into full sea water. While they will survive, I've noticed the casualty count is also a bit high. So far, with the slow and delibrate rise in salinity, the amount of casualties have been extremely low. This is perfect as it is the way nature intended it as they are washed out to sea. Just have to find that salinity "sweet spot" for the different species now. Oh...and of course...work on bringing them back to fresh water when they are ready.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Boy what a roller coaster ride I'm on with the Propinqua's. I just got a new replacement batch of them in yesterday. As Billy Crystal would say...."They look Mahvalis". Acclimated them to the tank just fine. Woke up this morning to a busted tank! I lost (7) of them. Worst of all....this was my Otocinclus Cocama tank and yes, I lost all of them as well. Never had to deal with something like this before. I've heard the horror stories but now I'm living it. I'll get this tank rebuilt today and start back up again.

Didn't have the time to check on the zoea this morning due to the cleanup. Just turned on the light and quickly glanced. It appeared to look ok. The older Amano zoea were all clumped together. Hopefully they are fine as they normally sit on the bottom at night. Temps are pretty low here now which may affect some things so I will have to keep an eye on that.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Wow, awful luck. Very few things more frustrating than a broken tank. Not only do you have the equipment to repair/replace, but getting the livestock out, cleaning up all the water, and transferring everything to another container is just such a pain in the butt at exactly the wrong time. On top of that the required swearing can consume so much time...


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Wow, just read the whole thread. You are one DEDICATED hobbyist! I will never complain about waiting for my CBS to berry and hatch again.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Betta Maniac said:


> Wow, just read the whole thread. You are one DEDICATED hobbyist! I will never complain about waiting for my CBS to berry and hatch again.


lol. I know eh.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thx. It's actually quite fun I must say. Watching them grow from zoea to shrimp is pretty kewl. Wish my photo skills were there to be able to photo document it. But I'll keep trying.

I did lose a batch of Ninja zoea. Gal stayed well hidden in the tank. Found zoea floating about in the tank today. Grrrrrr.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Been a bit since I've updated this. My apologies.

Had a few things happen recently. One tank busted on me resulting in losing some of my Propinqua's that I just got in. I have since rebuilt the tank and the remaining ones are doing just fine. No further signs of stress and colored up nicely.

The sole surviving Amano shrimplet is still going strong. I need to move him into a better container for air movement though. I'm not found of the small jar he is in. The Amano zoea for this round appear to be losing the battle. Salinity and feeding is spot on which is leading me to think the lower temps at night may start being a factor. I'll have to work on that. And as well, for this round of testing, I did keep the lights on 24x7 due to that fact. I'm not so confident that this is a good course to follow. All batches after this will go back to the 16x8 photo period.

Ninja zoea. These continue to be a mystery at the moment. I don't think mid level salinity is the right level. Next batch to hatch out will go to full sea water and we'll go from there. I have two females lined up. The second hatching will be at the lower end of the salt table and see what that gets us.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I lost my last Amano shrimpet. Poo. Was so close too. Back to the drawing board. I'll have to think about this one better. Guess my transition was actually too slow. I have a plan in place for the next batch.

On the Ninja front, all the zoea have been lost. One female currently in isolation waiting for hatching.

Good news on the Propinqua's. One of the original females is berried. Yay! I have moved her over and now the question is will she carry the eggs to term. I dropped in a Veggie stick for her to keep herself occupied with. Hopefully this will help.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

aha, guess you dont'; need more propinquas


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Only have a few to work with so will need to restock...again.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Propinqua lady is AGAIN plucking the eggs out! Grrrrrrr! Wish I knew why they are doing this? Maybe an age thing? Frustrating to say the least. She had about half of them left when the lights came on this morning. I guess I will give myself two options here: 1) just leave the older ladies in the tank longer before trying to move them. See if they do this in their regular environment. Or 2) move in a couple of plants or something in the tank with her to see if that may help. Just so confusing as none of the other shrimpies are behaving this way. And these Prop ladies are the oldest shrimpies which makes me wonder if that may have something to do with it.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And it's official. Propinqua lady has once again devoured all her eggs. Maybe she got a taste of caviar and just can't resist it. Who knows. I'll get her moved back to her tank, clean out the rearing tank and move over another Ninja.

Amano zoeas are still doing well. The oldest group has a nice color to them and appear to be getting close to morphing. The second group still looks a bit on the smallish side. If I don't see any good growth in the next couple of days, this could be a bad sign.

Gonna be chilly the next few days. Now will be a good time to see how the room temp will change and affect things. Hopefully not at all but the temps will definately be lower in the tanks.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Been pretty much out of commission for a spell. I hate being ill. Back in the saddle now and ready to pick up where I left off. I'm sure the zoea tanks are going to be a loss. I was only in the fish room long enough to feed and that's been the extent of my fishy interactions during this time. I'll get down there this afternoon and see if by chance anything remains. The rearing tanks will need to be cleaned and more ladies moved in. I know there was at least one berried Amano ready to go and I'm sure I can move over a couple Ninja ladies as they are always carrying. 

I'll be spending more time in basement now that it's getting cooler. Hopefully get things finalized with the new shelves and such. Get more organized.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Sorry to hear you've been under the weather.  

I hope you recover quickly, and well. :icon_bigg

-DK


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Found a berried Propinqua lady today. Yay! And the best part, it is one of the new females so hopefully won't have to deal with the eggs being eaten. Crosses fingers. I immediately moved her into isolation so we'll see.

Ninja lady still holding. Found several other berried ladies in their tank.

Will be moving an Amano lady into isolation this weekend. Still have a few Amano zoea's surviving. Thought for sure that I would have lost all of them during the time I was ill. Think I'm going to try and combine the two Amano zoea tanks and start fresh.


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## Cliffman (Aug 6, 2011)

Hi James, 
Glad to see your back. I recently began to try raising amanos too. First 2 attempts ended bad! But this time the zoeas are about 5 days old but now have all dropped to the bottom and just seem to "flop" around on the bottom. I guess they're dieing. 

So what is your current "best" salinity? I read through this thread once but it's so long I cant seem to find what worked best at this point.

Thanks
Cliff


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Hey Cliff. Good luck with your go at it. So far, for me, 1.018 is right around the magic number. I'll be tweaking this number in the next couple of rounds.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Me and Propinqua's just aren't gettin along. 

Checked the lady today and no eggs. Grrrrrr. Now this is her first carry and it is common for the first batch to be dropped so I won't get too upset at the moment. We'll see how it goes.

Ninja lady had hers hatch out. Both ladies are back in their tanks. Ninja zoea will be washed out to sea shortly.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Reset all the rearing tanks today. All emptied out and cleaned up. Moved over one expecting Amano and Propinqua. I'll look tomorrow to see if there are any more egg carrying Ninja's.

I wound up losing (3) Ninja's during a large water change after treating for Hydra in their tank. 

Getting ready to restock some of shrimpies. I need to find one low order breeder to make it an even four species to work with.


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## garfieldnfish (Sep 25, 2010)

Did anyone ever get to breed the orange shrimp? I did not read the entire thread. I used to have them but could not get them to breed and then they just died off one by one. I would just like to know if anyone ever got them to breed and managed to raise the shrimplets.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

James, I'm trying thai microcrabs. They're a difficult low order breeder as well, though they apparently don't require brackish for breeding. Just in case you were considering some variety. The downside of trying them is that they are excellent at hiding during the day, so it's pure chance that I manage to spot a berried female.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

the thai crabs are pretty obvious when berried as their stomachs get brightorange and the mature females are pretty sizeable (for microcrabs anyway). The females seem to be "hairier" as well, if that is of any help


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## SHRIMPCOLLECTOR (Oct 27, 2011)

James, Just had to let you know how much I appreciate your trials and documentation. Thanks and great read.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

garfieldnfish said:


> Did anyone ever get to breed the orange shrimp?


I'm working on it. Running into an issue of the females eating their eggs at the moment. Wondering if this is an age thing. I have since acquired some younger ones and getting ready to get a few more. Hopefully I'll start having some more viable subjects to work with.



jasonpatterson said:


> The downside of trying them is that they are excellent at hiding during the day, so it's pure chance that I manage to spot a berried female.


This sounds like the Ninja's too. Hard to spot them at times. Then I go to check on the tank and see hundreds of zoea floating about. I can't go rooting in the tank for them as they are in one of the Oto breeding tanks so have to keep the disturbance to a minimum.

I've been intrigued by the micro crabs ever since I've found out about them.


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## SHRIMPCOLLECTOR (Oct 27, 2011)

James, thank you for your perseverance and documentation. I would love to see you finally succeed with fully rasing the Propinqua zoe.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Amano lady hatched out about half her eggs last night. The others remain unhatched. I increased the water circulation to see if I can keep them fresh enough for a spell to see if they will hatch. I'll leave them in there until they fuzz over which hopefully they won't.

Propinqua lady still holding her eggs. {knocks on simulated wood}. Will be moving another berried Propinqua into isolation this weekend.


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## mixedinverttank (Jul 18, 2011)

i was thinking maybe for a fourth species you can try bamboo shrimp or vampire shrimp?


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Been a bit on the updating of things....Not much has been happening actually. All the ladies have been kinda in a lull at the moment. Today is a different story though. Today I found (2) berried Propinqua's and (1) Amano.

So....being the winter months and heat is a factor...not to mention me still not building my racks yet......I took a bit of initiative and devised me a heat bath for (3) tanks. So here we go:

Start with (1) unused dirty 10g tank. Didn't even bother cleaning it. I tested one of the rearing tanks to see if they fit. Just a bit small so I added a piece of wood for support.

Here's the front view: Disregard the person taking the photo as Marvin the Martian looks on. 









And a top view:









I filled up the rearing tanks with clean water. Then started filling the tank itself as high as I could without the small tanks floating. Added a heater and then the light:









And with the light on:









I currently have the heater on to adjust the heat to the mid to upper 70s. I'll be adding air stones in just a bit.

Quick and simple. I may even just throw some Java ferns and moss in the bottom for ambiance.

And if I'm lucky....tomorrow all three tanks will have a lovely lady in them.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Temperature check this morning on the heat was 83. A bit high for what I want so I changed out heaters with one that I can adjust better. If that fails, I'll go with a smaller one but not much flexibility. All expecting shrimps are still berried and waiting on me now.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Good idea with the heat bath. Saves you energy heating up those little tanks. The temperature will also be more stable ! Brilliant!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thx.

Bath is still at 80 with the new heater. Time to change it out again. Gotta hit that magic 75 mark. Do believe I have a smaller one. If not...it's off to PetSmart. Ladies still waiting on me which is a good thing.

I got to thinking, if I put Java ferns in the bottom, I would have to be carefull when the zoea hatch to make sure to not contaminate the bath water with salt. Hmmm... Still think it's manageable though.


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

Java ferns can actually tolerate salt quite well (I believe they grow in intertidal rivers and placed like that in the wild), so if you got a little salt in there they should be fine.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Temp check this morning and we're spot on. I'll go and transfer some ladies (hopefully) a little later today.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Jadelin said:


> Java ferns can actually tolerate salt quite well (I believe they grow in intertidal rivers and placed like that in the wild), so if you got a little salt in there they should be fine.


+1 They do fine in brackish. If you adjust them slowly you could have one in your zoea tank even.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

well...I just looked for the expecting Props, didn't immediately find them. I'll keep checking but it's not looking good. They must've know I was ready for them.

the amano lady looks like she has several non viable eggs as well. I'll still isolate her and see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Caught the Amano lady and have her in isolation. More than half her eggs looks bad.  Worse comes to worse...she dumps her eggs in the rearing tank and we start over. Still can't find the berried the Props. Looks like they are awash yet again. Disturbing. No action from the Ninja's either. It's like everything has stalemated at the moment.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

james0816 said:


> Caught the Amano lady and have her in isolation. More than half her eggs looks bad.  Worse comes to worse...she dumps her eggs in the rearing tank and we start over. Still can't find the berried the Props. Looks like they are awash yet again. Disturbing. No action from the Ninja's either. It's like everything has stalemated at the moment.


Could be winter. I have a thread on this on here right now, and certain species of mine have slowed down. Even Liam keeps his room blacked out, climate controlled and they are still picking up on external weather cues and slowing down.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Makes since. Other than the Propinqua behavior, it sounds logical.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I've got a berried amano (the only one that ever berries for me, actually...) in holding right now in much the same situation. Very few of her eggs are showing eyes, and she's been carrying them for at least two weeks now. Normally I can see the eyes by this point. I guess if nothing happens by the second week of February I'll ship her back to the main tank.

I've also been giving propinquas a go, but the only one that berried dropped her eggs during a rescape of the tank. At the moment I've got something like 17 propinquas, 15 of which show visible saddles... Hopefully one of the two without saddles is a male, my 3 original males all suicided (overworked?)


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Lady Amano didn't dump her eggs and she's still fanning them. Temp holding firm. I figured she would weed out the bad ones or at least start to. I do still expect her to dump them at some point though. I'm working on getting a new group in to get a better m/f ratio. Right now I'm left with (4) guys to (1) lady.

Was that the first time your Prop was berried? Not uncommon for a dump on the first batch. I'm showing a lot of saddles as well. I never really looked after the disaster to see how many males I may have. I have seen one for sure. That might be another thing to explore as well.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

Yeah, it was her first batch. I wasn't surprised she dropped them, though she'd had the eggs for over a week already. The difficulty was that the tank contains some high order breeders that were about to hatch as well and it needed to be redone. I think I'd have been OK if I had left her alone but then I'd have had a tank that needed rescaped that was filled with tiny shrimp.

I started with 3 males and 7 females. All 3 males jumped out of the tank and died, none of the females did. In the latest batch of 10 I have 8 females showing saddles and 2 shrimp without. I'm hoping against hope that they are male.

With my amanos it's the exact opposite, I've got 1 female who is constantly berried (Mama amano) and another that has been saddled for months now without ever producing eggs. All the rest are males.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Mama Amano continues to hold onto the eggs. Surprises me a bit but that's a good sign. We'll see where it goes from here. I'll be doing a little work in the Cocama/Propinqua tank and see if we can't get the ball rolling again over there. The Ninja's have been displaying some most beautiful markings the past couple of days after their tank was trimmed up.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

I think mama Amano cleared out the bag eggs. She did at least a partial dump. Kind of hard to tell in this setup but I'll get a better look at her when I do a water change.

I isolated a berried Propinqua two days ago. As of this morning, she's still holding. I'm not going to get my hopes up yet but we'll see. I have a partial water change on tap for her today as well.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

And again....caviar! 


Just can't figure this out. No clue as to why every Propinqua lady eats their dang eggs! Grrrrr...so frustrating. Maybe a new infusion of some new males may help. I ran some tests on the water parms and they look pretty good. I'm almost certain that it's something minute that I just haven't picked up on as yet. Hopefully, I'll learn it soon.

The Amano lady did dump nearly all her eggs but that was to be expected. She's holding on to about 1/4 of what she had. I'm debating whether I should still attempt this small group (if they hatch) or just put her back and wait til next time?

Ninja's are still doing their thing. Changing colors multiple times a day depending on where they are in the tank. Can't wait til spring so I can get a fresh shipment in to boost their numbers. Still no berries there so must be taking some time off.


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

Hey James, have you seen this:http://crustahunter.com/en/node/639

Looks like cf. propinqua have been renamed to thambipillai


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thx Jinxy. Just read it.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

msjinkzd said:


> Hey James, have you seen this:http://crustahunter.com/en/node/639
> 
> Looks like cf. propinqua have been renamed to thambipillai


Wow, water temps up to 86F and a pH down to 4.3.


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## eraserbones (Feb 20, 2011)

*propinqua*

James --

I was doing a bit of info-gathering for a page I'm working on about C. propinqua (or whatever the orange guys are) and discovered your very thorough journal here. Nice work documenting all the details! I haven't read all of your entries yet, but skipped to the end to link you to my page here:

http://bogott.net/unspecified/?page_id=1415

I look forward to reading back through your history to see if your conclusions are the same as mine.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

New recruits arrived today. Hopefully I'll get some better results with the new DNA.

While moving the new Props, woops...*Caridina thambipillai*, (they have been renamed), I found a berried female. I was able to easily isolate her so we'll keep an eye on her and see what happens. The new boys are a little small yet so it will be a spell before they hopefully make a difference.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Came home today and found (2) berried Propinqua's. Woops... I mean Thambipillai's. I don't like that name.  Thamb's. Just doesn't have the same ring to it.

Anyway, I moved both into one isolation tank. Now, here's what I'm doing this time. I'm going to be doing daily water changes. Also, I placed a wad of moss in there and a small Java Fern. Air stone on low....but then again...maybe I should run it sparingly. Might leave that for another test.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

james0816 said:


> I'm going to be doing daily water changes. Also, I placed a wad of moss in there and a small Java Fern.


I've been having a lot more luck with my zoeas since I started doing something similar. I've got a moss ball and some floaters in my amano hatching tank this time. I don't know if it really has anything to do with anything, but the female shrimp involved seems to greatly prefer this arrangement. It also allows me to feed her a lot less, fouling the water less in turn. The downside is that the zoeas like to go into the moss ball...


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

eraserbones said:


> http://bogott.net/unspecified/?page_id=1415


Good read. Keep up the good work and good note comparison. Hopefully my ladies will stop eating their eggs so I can continue with these guys.



jasonpatterson said:


> I've been having a lot more luck with my zoeas since I started doing something similar. I've got a moss ball and some floaters in my amano hatching tank this time. I don't know if it really has anything to do with anything, but the female shrimp involved seems to greatly prefer this arrangement. It also allows me to feed her a lot less, fouling the water less in turn. The downside is that the zoeas like to go into the moss ball...


I only plan on keeping the plants in there until they hatch (that is..if we get to that point). Could be interesting in pulling the moss out once there are zoea in the tank. The good thing is that I don't have this issue with the Amano's or Ninja's.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Well that didn't work. I did a water change last night. Both weren't doing very well this morning when I turned the lights on. One was on her side but alive and moved when I moved her. She is still holding her eggs. The other gal was just a tad more active but she ate her eggs! I went ahead and moved them both back into their tank even though one of them is still holding eggs. Rather loose eggs than a lady.

This is just so frustrating. At wits end here and just can't figure this out. Maybe a whole new environment change for them will help. When I redo my loach tank, I'll move them over in there and see if that will trigger anything.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Little bit of a positive note, I have been eyeballing a berried female. Today is day four. {knocks on simulated wood}. I'm not going to attempt to move her just yet. I want to see if I can get a couple more days in and then go for the move. Keeping my fingers crossed.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still holding on to her eggs. I'm starting to feel a little better. Now I did do some scaping in the tank so will have to see if it will cause her any stress. It also seems to me that some of that gals are getting their orange back. Hmmmm. I'll have to watch this very closely. Might be able to tie this in with tank parms. While the tank sits in good numbers, it just might not be ideal for them.


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## jasonpatterson (Apr 15, 2011)

I haven't had any luck at all with my propinquas. I've had 1 berried but did a rescape and she dropped the eggs, and all the remaining females have been saddled for months without mating. 

I'm rooting for you with this!


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Still holding. Most excellent! I will probably attempt to isolate her tomorrow. I did find another berried lady but it appears that her eggs are bad.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Alas...no more eggs. I guess the bright side would be that the lady held on to them longer this time. Such a mystery. So here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna run a test. I'm going to move a male and two or three ladies over to another tank and see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Two more berried Thamb's found last night. If they are still holding today, I'll get them over in isolation and see what happens.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Next up...a berried Amano. Yay! Finally I get this back on track with someone.  Found the gal last night and she is loaded. I'll get her all set up in the isolation tank and wait for the hatching.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm wondering, instead of using a different tank to hold the berried moms and possibly them dropping their eggs like they seem to for you, what about the external breeder boxes that clip on a tank? That way it has the exact same water as the tank as its fed from your main tank. That way she can be in there and you can watch closely and then be able to take her out of there, take the box off the tank and dump in into the "out to sea" tank. Maybe it's the change of params of the main tank and the isolation tank that causes them to drop sometimes.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

When I make an isolation tank, I do use water from their existing tank. Until the last bad batch of Amano's, I haven't had any issues with them and dropping. Just the Thambs. 

I've pretty much tried everything with them including what you mentioned with the specimen containers. I thought those would actually work better since they can still see their surroundings and such.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Progress. Found (3) berried Amano's and (3) Thambs this morning. One of the Thamb's already appears to be cleansing herself of the eggs though. I'll get some gals moved over into isolation today. Haven't noticed anything from the Ninja front as yet. Plenty of molting. Getting close to about time to bring in reinforcements.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Wow you have quite a bit of patience. 

I found some articles you may be interested in: 

http://eprints.cmfri.org.in/1449/1/Pillai_2-17.pdf 

Apparently in this experiment on Caridinia pseudogracilirostris, a closely related species, reared the berried females in brackish water where they easily released their eggs. The larvae were reared completely to adulthood in these conditions. Perhaps the females are consuming their eggs because they know they are in freshwater and their larvae wouldn't survive to metamorphosis.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Thx for the read. Always look for things like this.

The adult Thambs can't tolerate salt conditions. They are a strictly freshwater species. However, the eggs hatch and are washed out to sea to develope. The young then will migrate back to fresh water once they mature into an actual shrimplet.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Really? Apparently the original 1908 observations of C. propinqua were in slightly brackish water. 
http://www.aseanbiodiversity.info/Abstract/53005457.pdf


> Caridina propinqua De Man, 1908
> Caridina propinqua De Man, 1908a: 227, Pl. 19 Fig. 6 [type locality:
> Dhappa, near Calcutta, India]; Kemp, 1915: 309; 1918: 274;
> Bouvier, 1925: 181, Figs. 375, 381; Johnson, 1961: 131, Figs.
> ...


http://decapoda.nhm.org/pdfs/25856/25856.pdf


> Caridina propinqua De Man, 1908
> C. propinqua is the most abundant member of its family in Singapore. It inhabits
> low-salinity brackish waters and adjoining fresh waters which are subject to tidal influence.
> It is often abundant in such habitats, and occurs everywhere in the island where they are
> ...


I think if we were to find out where your shrimp were collected we would know a little better their conditions for breeding. It seems to be that different localities have different tolerances for salinity.


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Been kinda just sittin on this project for a bit since I've been having all the issues.

I've been watching the Tham's for a bit now and there are three ladies holding eggs. Not only are they holding but have done so for over a week now. I feel a little confident now that I can seperate and hopefully get a good batch of zoea for a change.

All my Amano ladies have been berried a for period of time as well. I see no sign of bad eggs in the carriage which is good.

I'll come up with a plan to isolate all the expecting ladies and see where we go from there.

I need to check with my source for more Ninja's. I'll be converting another tank over for Red Nose shrimp as well.


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## erikvr (Oct 25, 2011)

Been running a 3G tank with only shrimp in it for weeks now (went through a cycle with ghost shrimp), ghost shrimp are out, one femals amano is in. I have algae growing in jars outside in the sun. The first amano shrimp eggs have hatched. Having seen pictures of what to expect was very useful, not sure whether I would have recognized/noticed otherwise.

I'm not getting my hopes up, but I'll see whether I can get them to survive. 

Erik


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## james0816 (Jun 26, 2008)

Good luck.

I'm still trying to get things back on track. I've been leaving them alone for a spell now to see what would happen. Looks like the Amano's are ready to resume. Still no luck with the Thambs. I may just have to scrap them all together if they continue with their antics.

Haven't been able to restock the Ninja's as yet. Flooding as been a big issue in harvesting this year.


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