# Dealing with BGA in a slow growing crypt tank...



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Got any pictures of it?


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

If it's BGA nitrates and cleaning the tank, not the filter, should make it back out. I don't think it's BGA though if indeed you kept your nitrates that high for a week or two.

I had it a couple of times until I raised the fertilizer dosing and it went away by itself.


----------



## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Just keep harassing it and it will cease to be a nuisance if you are having success with your methods. It is probably a presence in most tanks but usually it isn't noticed as it is lurking under the gravel line or under suction cups where it doesn't really bother anything.

How much is there and where is it growing?


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

you can see it on the substrate and leaves of my foreground plant. it has also sprea as i've been suctioning and cleaning to other leaves, a light dusting tho nor as thick...


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Yep, BGA all right. You have low nitrates.


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

my Nitrates are >40 ppm... unless my test kit is busted (API)


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

I don't think the test is good. BGA is better 

If you have someone to borrow a test and see if the result differs that will be also good. You don't mentioned how you fertilize and how you feed the fish if any.


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I don’t really know about that one. Have you tried blasting it with oxygen? I do this fairly regularly when I can’t figure out what else to do. Clean the tank as much as possible. Empty half the water. Let the filter run so that the water is returned above the surface level. Just leave it like that until you can’t stand to wait any longer. Turn the filter off and take the filter apart and clean it in the tank water you removed in the first place. Essentially it is just a normal water change with a huge churn of water in the middle.


----------



## Algae Beater (Jun 3, 2011)

1/3 dose of antibiotics will not harm your crypts, and will get rid of the BGA


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

A big part of the reason BGA is considered easy to eradicate is because there's the option of antibiotics. Which typically destroys it completely, with surgical precision. And it will not reappear, regardless of tank conditions, unless reintroduced from an outside source.

Why would antibiotics damage your crypts? Plants are not bacteria.

Why would you avoid any risk of damage, imagined or real, to the point of giving up and destroying the plants yourself?

No harm attempting to deal with it first through other means. Sometimes it works. But once your patience is exhausted, it's time to stop avoiding the most reliable cure.


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

danielt said:


> I don't think the test is good. BGA is better


Sure, test kits are fallible, but they get an unnecessarily bad rap.

I have blamed my test kits for being faulty numerous times, whenever what they told me didn't fit with my understanding on how things work.

Now that I'm more experienced, I look back on all this and find my tests have only lied to me once - an expired KH test that gave readings so high it was immediately rejected.

BGA consumes an _enormous_ amount of nitrate. So much that it can cause levels to bottom out, starving your plants, which is obviously a bad thing. The BGA does not starve itself in the process, because it can directly utilize additional nitrogen sources that plants cannot.

So you add more nitrate. And sometimes the BGA goes away. Folks say nitrate kills BGA. I say if BGA loves nitrate so much, all you're doing is feeding it.

What's important is that now there's some nitrate left over for the plants. It's the plants that beat the BGA, not the nitrate.

But they may not be able to fully accomplish this feat, if there are nothing but slow growers. Or few plants. Or anything else affecting plant health. Or areas of a tank that act as almost independent ecosystems, isolated by poor flow or physical barriers.

So I believe [thefisherman] and his test kit. It's no surprise to me that additional nitrate didn't solve his problem, and that results for increasing nitrate are so varied in general.


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Don't want to start anything. 

All I know is BGA turns off because of the high nitrates. It's the relationship between the bacteria and the algae that breaks down with Nitrates in excess. It will not grow better if it's above the feeding limit, it uses a soft-spot. Once you're out of bounds it will disappear as it's unable to maintain the symbiosis.

I never used medication in my tank. BGA came and went all by itself every time. Once I spotted the algae I would increase dosing of NO3. Why I got low NO3 in the first place? I trim plants when I feel like it. Sometimes there's almost no NO3 left. In the span of two weeks I had NO3 jump from 10PPM to over 30PPM. All just with a heavy dose of scissors action.


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Nitrogen fixation





Cyanobacteria cultured in specific media. Cyanobacteria can be helpful in agriculture as they have the capability to fix atmospheric nitrogen to soil. 
Cyanobacteria include unicellular and colonial species. Colonies may form filaments, sheets or even hollow balls. Some filamentous colonies show the ability to differentiate into several different cell types: vegetative cells, the normal, photosynthetic cells that are formed under favorable growing conditions; akinetes, the climate-resistant spores that may form when environmental conditions become harsh; and thick-walled heterocysts, which contain the enzyme nitrogenase, vital for nitrogen fixation. Heterocysts may also form under the appropriate environmental conditions (anoxic) when fixed nitrogen is scarce. Heterocyst-forming species are specialized for nitrogen fixation and are able to fix nitrogen gas into ammonia (NH3), nitrites (NO−
2) or nitrates (NO−
3) which can be absorbed by plants and converted to protein and nucleic acids (atmospheric nitrogen is not bioavailable to plants).

Rice plantations utilize healthy populations of nitrogen-fixing cyanobacteria (Anabaena, as symbiotes of the aquatic fern Azolla) for use as rice paddy fertilizer.[5]


Cyanobacteria are arguably the most successful group of microorganisms on earth. They are the most genetically diverse; they occupy a broad range of habitats across all latitudes, widespread in freshwater, marine and terrestrial ecosystems, and they are found in the most extreme niches such as hot springs, salt works, and hypersaline bays. Photoautotrophic, oxygen-producing cyanobacteria created the conditions in the planet's early atmosphere that directed the evolution of aerobic metabolism and eukarotic photosynthesis. Cyanobacteria fulfill vital ecological functions in the world's oceans, being important contributors to global carbon and nitrogen budgets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanobacteria


----------



## JoraaÑ (Jun 29, 2009)

Antibiotics full dose will take care of this nasty algae...wont hurt and sp. at all...


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

danielt said:


> All I know is BGA turns off because of the high nitrates.


Then dump in a lot of nitrate. You know exactly how much you're adding. If this turns BGA off, then it no longer depletes nitrate. In a high-light, heavily planted tank, plants typically use about 1-2ppm daily; if you have fish, food can easily add that back in and more. You're assured to reach at least your goal, no test kits necessary at all. If what you say is true, then this _should_ be a surefire and foolproof cure, 100% of the time.

Look beyond your personal experiences to the many reported on this forum, and you will see this is clearly not the case.

This coming from someone who has had multiple BGA infestations, in tanks with heavy fish loads and EI dosing. Though I don't know my exact nitrate levels at the time of each infestation, I can say with certainty they were always excessively high, certainly high enough to "turn off" BGA immediately if that were possible. Yet it exploded each time I introduced an infected plant, effectively treatable only with antibiotics. It was only later, when both my skills and overall plant health improved, that this no longer happened.

I have BGA now. It's growing happily on several HOB filter outflows. While the outflow apparently provides a suitable environment, the tanks themselves do not, as it does not spread from that location. I don't know exactly why, but it's not due to nitrate levels, as they're up to 70ppm.

I'm not trying to start anything either, not a bit of malice in my reply. But really now:

_"I don't think it's BGA though if indeed you kept your nitrates that high for a week or two."_

The pic showed it was BGA.

_"Yep, BGA all right. You have low nitrates."_

His nitrates were fine.

_"I don't think the test is good. BGA is better"_

Admit it. You're stretching for an explanation that fits your understanding of BGA at this point.  And if the OP gets another test kit and gets the same result - which I believe it will - what is the next explanation? That test kit is bad too? Something in the tank is interfering with the tests?

Been there, done that; and I believe the end result will be to leave the OP more frustrated, with the problem still unsolved, and needlessly distrustful of test kits. We may disagree, but I do not want him to end up nuking his tank. They are lovely crypts. That's all, really.


----------



## zdnet (Aug 13, 2010)

I got rid of BGA by physically removing all the visible ones, then installed a fan controlled by a thermostat to make sure that the tank water could not get too warm. BGA did not return.


----------



## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Any antibiotics to consider? I'm looking at seachem paraguard for one...


----------



## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

acitydweller said:


> Any antibiotics to consider? I'm looking at seachem paraguard for one...


Erythromycin is the antibiotic of choice for treating cyanobacteria (BGA).


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I don't know all your tank parameters, but going by your OP, were you stated that you reduced light intensity (raised lights) and reduced photo period (to 8 hrs) lends itself to believe that you were running too much light for too long a period in a slow growing tank and the tank just didn't have the bio-filter to deal with it. I doubt this has anything to do with your nitrates. Why do nitrates cure BGA anyway? Since your in a reactive mode I would do the erythromycin has others have suggested.


----------



## sepulvd (Mar 19, 2012)

Where do you buy Erythromycin


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

sepulvd said:


> Where do you buy Erythromycin


Very places, but you can simply buy some fish meds and use it for the BGA.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16818


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

Epic post Dark Cobra! thank you and the community for sharing your experience and insight on the matter...

regarding the test kit accuracy and to conclude our speculation, i will purchase another nitrate kit and compare results.

i agree with houseofcards that my light was too high initially. but i have since raised the fixture >12" above the tank and reduced to a 4-2-4 (8hrs on, 2hr off rest period) photo period.

in retrospect, i doubt BGA was triggered neccessarily due to high light, as i've maintained a high light condition (albiet percieved excessive for most crypts) for well over a year before any sign of BGA. if anything BBA developed as a result and some remnants exist on my intake tube and drop checker. but this is actually under control as i reduced light and increased co2.










this is my tank (week 5) after a huge water change, major pruning of affected leaves and the cleaning filter media. 

before this i've further lowered the light intensity, increased circulation and maintained >40ppm nitrates with regular pruning and w/c for several weeks already.

what pains me (and what may not be readily observed in the photo) is that the crypts are not happy. 

with few exception some sp. are displaying new growth...the rest of my crop is suffering. they simply do not appreciate change.

for instance all this time i had very high light. but for many months intensity and duration have not changed, the crypts did fine. i've been EI dosing and running co2 at a constant rate and regimen, and again the crypts did well... now perhaps someone can argue they could be growing better with different parameters, but thats another discussion. 

my point is my crypts (i have about 2 dozen variety in this particular tank) did Ok as long as conditions remained stable and consistent.

it seems the concept of increasing Nitrates is to ensure plants are not out competed by BGA and remain healthy thriving plants (which i guess would result in an increase in Oxygen levels that BGA despises)... unfortunately i believe i've stunted my plants.

In hind sight, i may have shocked them by doing too much (all of the above) within a short period of time (5wks). And now my crypts are showing their displeasure by a substantial melt-off.

if you keep crypts you know there will be a point the plant either bounces back or completely disintegrates... my plants have not been happy for several weeks at this point and i doubt they will recover fast enough to outlast the BGA by experimenting with methods other than the use of anti-biotics.

i think i know what i need to do.

many thanks 1


----------



## n00dl3 (Jan 26, 2008)

thefisherman said:


> Epic post Dark Cobra! thank you and the community for sharing your experience and insight on the matter...
> 
> regarding the test kit accuracy and to conclude our speculation, i will purchase another nitrate kit and compare results.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worried too much... crypts are extremely resilient plants. They will adjust and grow back in no time. The one thing about crypts and crypts growers is patience! Just give it time, they will bounce back. They are not stem plants so you can't see instant gratifications. Even if they melted, the rhizome with survive and come back.

Look at my tank, I experienced extreme melting because of my neglect. Now it is slowly coming back.


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

@DarkCobra

I said from my experience what worked. There's also many articles that stipulate the high Nitrate as having an impact on BGA along with other factors that influence its spread.

Every tank is unique in its own way. The details explain better and that is a problem on most forums. Even in my case, this algae might have been destroyed by something other than Nitrates. I don't see how putting antibiotics and nuking all of the bacterial flora helps. It' like punishing everyone because of a disgruntled individual.

Bottom line, having healthy plants will cause BGA to starve as there's little to no leak of organic matter into the water column. Cleaning the tank as best as possible of any decaying organic matter also helps in starving it. 

Maintaining high Nitrates along with the above should make it go away.

Hitting it from multiple angles should do the trick, making the plants/beneficial bacteria suffer because of BGA will surely not improve the situation.


----------



## creekbottom (Apr 5, 2012)

I may be wrong on this but here goes.

Using Erythromycin will likely not do much to the good bacteria in the tank. Most *MOST* beneficial bacteria is gram negative, Erythromycin is good at killing gram positive bacteria. So the cyano gets it cause it's gram positive while the filter doesn't really notice anything cause it's gram negative.

If you have alot of cyano and you nuke it, you just have to keep up with lots of water changes so the dead and decaying yuck doesn't mess further with your parameters.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Well of course nothing works in a vacuum. Our tanks have too many variables for anyone 'really' to tell you straight out what caused BGA in 'your' tank. Point I was making about the lighting is that it might have been fine for a while, but over time as organics built up the light was too much. The one thing ALL tanks have is organic decay and how each tank deals with it. Higher light will usually result in worse algae situations if the organic decay can't be kept in check. Even when you can a tank well over time the decay builds up.


----------



## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Personally I got rid of cyano when I began dosing nitrates and phosphates, dosing only nitrates did nothing, or made matters worse, also adding some fast growing plants would help a lot.

It is a matter of making sure the plants get all they need, if something is lacking, plants will starve, and algae/cyano will outcompete them.

Michel.


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

got the new test kit today.








i think its safe to say my test kits are comparable and that i actually have more like 160ppm nitrates! :O








gonna start the nuke full dose tonight. fingers crossed...


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

oops heres the right pic...


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Next time through, try these folks for a better price on EM:

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html

I didn't catch this thread in time to tell you. 

99.9% sure you won't see any ill effect from this treatment.

Cheers


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

m00se said:


> Next time through, try these folks for a better price on EM:
> 
> http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products.html
> 
> ...


thanks for your vote of confidence moose... i don't think i would've made the leap if it weren't for the reassurance of the forum^^










as you can see its gotten ugly in there. my c. zukali and c. pahang mutated have been inflicted! clearly they are not happy campers


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

thefisherman said:


> i think its safe to say my test kits are comparable and that i actually have more like 160ppm nitrates! :O


A little trick with those test kits. You might already know, but it never hurts to share it again.

Reliably distinguishing between those shades of red at the high ppms is notoriously difficult.

Try combining, for example, a tbsp. of tank water with 3 tbsp. of distilled water. Mix well. Fill the test vial from that mixture.

Now you've shifted the range of the kit. If you see 20ppm it's really 80ppm, 40ppm is really 160ppm, and so on. The color changes are more distinct around the lower ranges.

And with the API kits, always view the test vial with it pressed directly up against the white space alongside the color bars, not just in front.


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

The test color chart says it's for saltwater. You're using the correct chart?


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

danielt said:


> The test color chart says it's for saltwater. You're using the correct chart?


hmm indeed it does... just to confirm, i used the old Nitrate test solutions against the new ones i purchased. and they both came up with similar color results. but i'll definately check again when i get home. good eye danielt thank you!


----------



## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

I started a similar thread yesterday. I have the problem in a brackish tank with Opae Ula shrimp. Shrimp aren't really happy with high nitrates, and I'm curious if they or :the live rock: will survive antibiotics. 

Until I find out for sure, I'm going to use a phosphate removing product in a hob filter to increase water movement. The shrimp will hide, no doubt. I have already cut back on light substantially, both intensity and day length... 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

If nitrates are not a problem... I just talked to one of my buddies who's starting an Iwagumi style and got BGA all over the place. He told me it dealt with BGA in a couple of hours by squirting locally, with a syringe, PPS-Pro.

You might try that if you haven't dosed the antibiotics yet. I think any NO3 solution should do the trick.


----------



## Rob in Puyallup (Jul 2, 2009)

Did a parameter check on the tank last night. 

pH 8.2

Ammonia 0 

Nitrite 0 

Nitrate 0 

What's PPS-PRO? 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 2


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

It's a liquid macro fertilizer with the main component of KNO3, I think it's called Potassium Nitrate. English it's not my native language


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

thefisherman said:


> hmm indeed it does... just to confirm, i used the old Nitrate test solutions against the new ones i purchased. and they both came up with similar color results. but i'll definately check again when i get home. good eye danielt thank you!












i double checked and nitrate chart is the same.


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Noticed any change yet?


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

m00se said:


> Noticed any change yet?


i'm a bit disheartened as the BGA seems unaffected. 

Day 3 of EM treatment


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Odd. Anything in your tank that could be removing it? Carbon, Purigen, UV?


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

thefisherman said:


> i double checked and nitrate chart is the same.


So your nitrate is off the chart?


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Odd. Anything in your tank that could be removing it? Carbon, Purigen, UV?


nope


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> So your nitrate is off the chart?


i guess if its >160ppm... i also let the outflow raise above the waterline to boost Oxygen levels.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

thefisherman said:


> i guess if its >160ppm... i also let the outflow raise above the waterline to boost Oxygen levels.


I didn't think most fish, looks like you have cardinals in there can tolerate those levels?


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I didn't think most fish, looks like you have cardinals in there can tolerate those levels?


i have cards, pair of rams, 2 cories and a kuhli loach... all fauna seem fine with no visible signs of stress.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

What do you think is the source of those levels?


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Day #3 ...yea you *shouldn't* see any signs yet I guess. This stuff will just...sort of...not be there anymore. There won't be any dramatic shedding or sloughing. It just ... isn't there anymore.

Keep us posted!


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

i think it was when i doubled up on my KNO3 dry dose, to initially raise levels. i originally had <10ppm. I've done major waterchanges since, but i think a lot of it remains in my substrate. i also have root ferts planted in the eco-complete.

i stopped dosing ferts about 2.5 weeks ago in hope the poants would do the rest... but then again my plants aren't the fast growing variety. i was thinking if adding some pennywort from my fry tank for added plant mass and oxygen boost, but not as a nitrate sponge as the fish seem fine


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

m00se said:


> Day #3 ...yea you *shouldn't* see any signs yet I guess. This stuff will just...sort of...not be there anymore. There won't be any dramatic shedding or sloughing. It just ... isn't there anymore.
> 
> Keep us posted!


good to know moose, will do...i'm trying my best to keep the faith!


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Maybe what you have is a kid helping problem.


----------



## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

to make you feel any better, i was able to grow BGA in high nitrates as well as low nitrate, however it did grew faster in high nitrates.


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Plenty of people have pointed to direct sunlight from a nearby window, if even for a few minutes a day as the possible cause of it really taking off. That infers that yellow light, like in the 2500-4000K range could help it grow. It's in all tanks but in check usually.

Anecdotal, I know...but it's out there.


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

Day 5 - EM treatment








The good thing is other than affected leaves i know about, there are no new signs o BGA anywhere else including my susbtrate. 

rechecked nitrate levels and things seem to be normaling out again... at 20ppm. 









i'll take this as a good sign as my plants are waking up again. some new growth on a sp i planted before i realized i had a BGA war on my hands...









my tank is absolutely filthy at this point. gonna do weekly maintenance and continue treatment


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Looks like lots of BBA as well. Keep pruning and removing waste.


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Looks like lots of BBA as well. Keep pruning and removing waste.


yessir, will do. i just finished doing a major pruning, removal of detritus and gunk. 
FTS








i trimmed off the worst affected leaves and was able to rub some leaves clean with my fingers. i tried to suction as much BGA remnants as possible. 
Left Side








Right Side









thank you noodle for reminding me crypts aren't as fragile and patience is just as much a key to success.

although i had a massive melt occur, i checked each rhizome and most are still crisp, well rooted and intact. beneath the melt there is even some new growth. again a promising sign my plants will bounce back.

i know my tank doesn't look to great, but if my plants bounce back, it will be another plus against the BGA... i am inclined to think, perhaps oxygen is the silver bullet for BGA... i guess we'll see if it returns after this tank maintenance. [fingers crossed]


----------



## thefisherman (Oct 15, 2011)

Day 6 - The tank actually looks better than it has in a while. Perhaps its a false positive as a result of my major pruning and tank maintenance yeterday... nonetheless i'm happy to see any kind of improvement at this stage.









I removed the one severely BGA affected leaf and rubbed off the rest with my fingers. It came off quite easy yesterday, i tried my best to suction it up before it traveled to other parts in my tank.










there are very slight dustings of the BGA on the left side of my tank. but whatever traces remain they turned a dark green color. 










not really sure what to make of all of this, i only dis a partial waterchange so i'm sure there are some meds still circulating in the tank. i ran my final dose yesterday and would have to buy more EM if i were to continue treatment. i hope i don't have to!


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish (Apr 29, 2012)

3 day blackout and more nitrates.


----------

