# Help - Small and narrow new leaves - deficiency?



## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

Hi could you help me identify a possible deficiency or other problem in my tank?

Setup:
17gallon tank 
Substrate : eco-complete with organic fert on the bottom
There are 5 seiryu stones in the tank
Fert : EI dose (following 40-80liter chart)
CO2 : pressurized and inline diffuser, getting light green with drop checker
Filter : Eheim 2215
Water change : 50%/week 
Light : 2 x 24w T5-HO - 8hrs/day (12-8pm)

Water test 
Nitrate : 30ppm
GH : very hard (too high, couldnt finish the test)
Water from faucet : possibly very hard -- it did not turn the color over 20drops of testing solution. Of course my tank is the same or may be higher
Somehow high hardness causes the problem? or some deficiency.. like iron def? 
What do you think ?

Bump: Pictures


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

A gradual decrease in leaf size is usually a deficiency. Then again, you have Rotala in an EI tank. That's a common environment for Rotala stunting. Some people do fine with Rotala and EI. Others don't. 

In general, my advice is to increase water change volume and frequency. Assume you don't have enough Calcium and Magnesium (even though you have crazy high GH) and dose a little CaSO4 and MgSO4 after each water change. Increase CO2 a little bit. Increase flow. Go to quarter or half EI in traces (in case you're overdoing it). Even half-EI is a lot of traces. Keep macros the same.


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

Oh I'll increase the frequency of WC. I don't have CaSO4 or MgSO4. Do you recommend other fert method for Rotala instead of EI? Thank you for your reply!!


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

niceseol said:


> Oh I'll increase the frequency of WC. I don't have CaSO4 or MgSO4. Do you recommend other fert method for Rotala instead of EI? Thank you for your reply!!


Get some of the Cal and Mag sulfate. It is dirt cheap. Mag sulfate is Epsom salt at the local drug store, at less than a buck a pound. And CaSO4 is almost as cheap. Add those and see if you notice any improvement. If you do, great, problem solved. If nothing improves, then, you've eliminated Ca and Mg deficiency as a source of problems. That allows you to move on to other issues to tackle. 

Focus on CO2 first. 

Then lower your traces a bit. Even though a lot of people have fantastic luck with full EI, my tank seems to do better with half/quarter EI or less when it comes to traces. Especially when it comes to Rotala.


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

Yes I just bought the epsom salt at a grocery store and ordered CaSO4 online. I also increased the CO2 level as well. 
Now I'm thinking to change to PPS pro method. 
By the way, how much is "a little" CaSO4 and Mg? Like 1/16tsp per water change?
Thanks a lot for your reply!


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Yes, very high hardness can cause issues. Specifically, it can outcompete other nutrients for uptake. I would not add more Ca or Mg until you know exactly what that GH consists of. It may just make the problem worse by increasing GH.

As for small leaves, that could be the symptom of many different nutrient deficiencies, e.g. P, one or more of the traces. It could also be the symptom of a toxicity.


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

Im getting confused.. 
I am going to lower my micros first and see if that works. If that doesnt work that shouldnt be a micro toxicity. 
By the way, I have increased the co2 slightly? more. Then many of fish were acting funny on the surface of the water and a shrimp died I guess that was too much co2.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Anyone who tells you it's related to CO2 doesn't understand how submerged aquatic plants grow. Aquatic plants don't need much for growth and adding excessive amounts can kill livestock as you've just experienced.

As for reducing traces, it's unlikely you'll figure out just how little traces plants require. It's nowhere near what is suggested by EI. If i were to estimate just how excessive, it's 50-100x too much. So even if you do a 50% wc, will you're tank be in the clear?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Agree with most of the advice above, good co2 and reducing micros. If you're dosing EI levels it's almost guaranteed not a deficiency, unless it's Ca or Mg as @Saxa Tilly pointed out. 

It doesnt look like Philly area tap water is all that hard. The seiryu stones could be raising things a bit, but since you tested right out of the tap, I doubt you are getting accurate results from whatever kind of test you're using.

http://www.phila.gov/water/wu/Water Quality Reports/2015WaterQuality.pdf


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

Thanks for your reply guys.
I did about 70% of water change today. (I did Two 50% water changes last week) I added macros but didnt add any micros. 
I started pps pro dosing since the weekends. I made the ~1/10 concentration micro solution and going to dose them everyday. 
These are my formula for my pps bottles.
32.5g KNO3 / 29.5g K2SO4 / 3g KH2PO4 / 20.5g MGSO4 - in 500ml bottle
4g CSM+B - in 500ml bottle - this is about 1/10th concentration
I'm going to dose these everyday. (1ml/10gallon)

I also bought some CaSO4 and 10%DTPA Iron chelate. - Just in case.
And yes, burr740, I think my GH test solution is expired. They dont change colors in distilled water. I need to get a new test kit. 

Thanks!

I did another 70% WC today. 
Some plants look better. Some of them (which were already had narrow deformed leaves) are still stunted in growth but overall they look good and some leaves have pearling. 
I'll update soon again.
Thanks!


I got the new GH&KH test kit. 
GH is turned out to be 14dGH
KH is 6dKH
I cut most of the defective tips. I'll update the result ASAP. Thanks!


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

still can find some new small growth  But many stems are looking ok.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Looks like induced calcium deficiency. How much macros did you dose? Excess nitrate can cause that.


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

I'm on PPS-Pro method now.
Im dosing macro a little over 1ppm NO3, 0.2ppm PO4, 2.66ppm K, 0.1ppm Mg every day.
and micro ~Fe 0.02 ppm every day.
Water change is more than 2x/wk recently..
Should I introduce some CaSO4 to my tank?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Other nutrients can impair Ca uptake as well. Did you ever find out what the GH consist of?


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

No I didnt. how to check the amount of components in GH?


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## niceseol (Apr 15, 2012)

It looks like Calcium level in Philadelphia tap water is *24-44ppm* and Magnesium is about *6-12ppm* back in 2013? according to this book "Water – A Comprehensive Guide for Brewers (John Palmer and Colin Kaminski, 2013, Brewers Publications)."

My tank may have different numbers because I have some Seiryu stones, driftwoods, and ecocomplete w/ dirt as substrate.

By the way, I was looking for a calcium test kit but then there were too many of them.
Is this good for Ca test for FW tank which have some CaSO4?
- LaMotte 3609-01 Model CA-DR Calcium Hardness Direct Reading Titrator Individual Test Kit, 0-200ppm/0-2580ppm *CaCO3* Range, 4ppm/51.6ppm CaCO3 Sensitivity

I was wondering if *CaCO3* test makes any difference because I have *CaSO4* powders in hand.


-----[edit] Found More info. quoted from www.homebrewtalk.com--------------
DE river-Baxter plant if you draw from this plant (2010.1):

*Ca-23 ppm
Mg-5.63 ppm*
Sodium-19.1 ppm
Chloride-48 ppm
Sulfate-15 ppm
Hardness-80
Alk-CaCo3-36 average
Ph-7.2


Schuylkill river-Queen Lane plant if you draw from this plant (2010.1):

*Ca-43 ppm
Mg-13 ppm*
Sodium-35 ppm
Chloride-92 ppm
Sulfate-43.7 ppm
Hardness-157
Alk-CaCo3-65 average
Ph-7.1


Philadelphia, PA Local Tap water test in *(2015.1)*
pH 7.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 269
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.45
Cations / Anions, me/L 4.1 / 4.0
ppm
Sodium, Na 38
Potassium, K 2
*Calcium, Ca 34
Magnesium, Mg 8*
Total Hardness, CaCO3 118
Nitrate, NO3-N 1.0 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 6
Chloride, Cl 97
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 48
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 39


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