# Echinodorus tenellus ?



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

both of your plants look great, what is your question though?


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## Oliver Risteski (Oct 29, 2007)

I want a confirmation for the plant from the first picture, is that a Echinodorus tenellus (and in second picture for the plant in the left side!), some people say is not Echinodorus tenellus!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

looks like it to me, does it send outside runners for propigation?


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## Oliver Risteski (Oct 29, 2007)

Yes, it send runners for propigation!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

then its tenellus for sure.


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## Oliver Risteski (Oct 29, 2007)

Thank you, bsmith782!


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## Riley (Jan 24, 2006)

Ummm.....S.subulata sends out runners also. Looks like a couple of different sags to me. E. tenellus has thinner more grass like leaves.


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## Digsy (Mar 4, 2006)

I agree, the first plant looks more like Sag...E. tenellus has the narrow leaves shown in the left of the second picture.


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## Oliver Risteski (Oct 29, 2007)

First picture is makro from the second picture (plant in the first and plant in the left of the second pisture is equal plant, but from difference distance is taken a picture!), and first and second picture is from my aqua.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

I will try to post a close up pic tonight, but my E. tenellus has longer and narrower leaves.

Found one here at work. This is it growing (over growing everything) in a low-light 5 gallon tank:


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

IMHO, Oliver's plant is not _Helanthium tenellum_ (remember the runner-making swords are no longer _Echinodorus_ ). It looks more like a Sagittaria to me as well. Could you try whether the part of the leaf near the base/ crown is thick and sponge-like, making the leaf a bit triangula in cross section? Then it is a Sag., maybe _S. demersa_. Or is it practically flat, in which case, it can be a _Helanthium_.

Walter, your plant is _Helanthium bolivianum_. 

_Helanthium tenellum_ has even narrower leaves that turn reddish in good light. A pic online.

As the Helanthiums and Sags are really plastic in their morphology, a surer way for proper ID is by growing the plant emersed.


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Daniel*Swords said:


> IMHO, Oliver's plant is not _Helanthium tenellum_ (remember the runner-making swords are no longer _Echinodorus_ ).


OK, I missed that, but will keep it in mind. 



Daniel*Swords said:


> Walter, your plant is _Helanthium bolivianum_.


Thanks for the Id. 



Daniel*Swords said:


> _Helanthium tenellum_ has even narrower leaves that turn reddish in good light. A pic online.


Wow, based on this pic there are a lot of people who have the wrong plant (and stores selling it as the wrong plant).


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

tazcrash69 said:


> Wow, based on this pic there are a lot of people who have the wrong plant (and stores selling it as the wrong plant).


So right! The Helanthiums are really a mess taxonomically, according to my swordplant knowledge source Samuli Lehtonen, so no wonder that they are so also in the trade and hobby. The plant sold in the States under the name of "Echinodorus tenellus" most often is not _Helanthium tenellum_ but some other species, probably _Helanthium bolivianum_. The situation is somewhat better on this side of the pond.

P.S. Here's the link to the announcement of the generic name change.


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## Saraja87 (Jul 18, 2007)

I thought only certain types of H. tenellus turn red under good lighting? It looks like it could be what I've seen called broad leaf H. tenellus


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## Reeferton (Aug 16, 2007)

When I ordered _E. tennelus_ from azgardens I thought I was purchasing the plant on the left in the picture above, "dwarf chain sword." What I recieved was a much larger plant, with leaves closer in shape to a sword than a grass. I guess this is the true _E. Tennelus_ because it looks like a sword, and the other one, the grass-like one, is _Helanthium tenellum?








_


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Well, you are right, Saraja87, in a sense. There has been talk about two varieties of _H. tenellum_, a red one from the South America and a green one from the North. The green one has been named _Echinodorus parvulus_ in the past. This _might_ be a separate species - there have been no proper studies of them yet. However, to my understanding, this green one should be (almost) as thin-leaved as the reddish one... and maybe even smaller! (See Curt Quester's German page on H. tenellum) with 2 pics of the _parvulus_-type.) He says that the green one is more difficult to grow, it needs lots of light & CO2.

From this perspective, yes, Oliver's plant _could_ be a Northern variety of _H. tenellum_. However, it seems like a Sag to me.


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

Reeferton said:


> I guess this is the true _E. Tennelus_ because it looks like a sword, and the other one, the grass-like one, is _Helanthium tenellum?
> _


No, _E. tenellus_ is now a synonym of the _H. tenellum_. The surest and easiest to recognise _H. tenellum_ (ex-_E. tenellus_) is the reddish, grassy-leaved plant. The plant in your pic looks like a _Helanthium_ still in its emersed form. The shape of the leaves should start changing soon. And if not, well, these are plants really adaptable to their conditions. The same plant grows in totally different way in different conditions!


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## Reeferton (Aug 16, 2007)

OK, thanks for the clarification.
I mean, I know azgardens doesn't have the best, well, reputation for accuracy, with such claims as "Dwarf puffers are non-aggressive, social fish."
(Dwarf puffers will school and act sociable for safety when in a new environment but are very territorial and will eventually kill each other if not given ample personal space).


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## Oliver Risteski (Oct 29, 2007)

Thank you very match, this is a good discussion for the plant, and thank you for the information of name change, I don't know that! (Nobody not does know for the change names in the Macedonia).


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## Daniel*Swords (May 8, 2006)

You are welcome! The actual article in which the new combinations of the _Helanthium_ names has just come out. See here for the abstract.

Oliver, did you check the thickness of the leaves of your plants?


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## synodontis (Aug 21, 2007)

as far as I'm concerned the pictures in the first posting is defintely NOT tennelus. I grow tennelus, and those look more like sagitaria


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