# killing fish in the freezer?



## fluff34567 (Nov 15, 2005)

hi all,

more of a discussion point than anything else.... i have read many many forums where its suggested that if you need to kill a fish you should put it in the freezer......

why is this? wouldnt knocking it on the head be quicker?


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## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

Yes it would. Some people just can't do it.


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## ngrubich (Nov 29, 2011)

psalm18.2 said:


> Yes it would. Some people just can't do it.


+1 with the above comment. Some people see this as a "more humane" way to put their fish down. I've seen quite a few people do this with their larger fish, like discus or cichlids. If they have a large tank with an expensive stock, they will then take the fish to a vet to test to see what the fish had (if it was a disease and not old age), so they could treat their tank as such.


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## fishyfish22 (Sep 14, 2011)

i'm not 100% sure, but it seems that it would torture the fish before killing it slowly. it would be easier to get it over quickly, because if someone tried freezing the fish, it meas that that they probably cared for the fish and don't want to let it go so easy. they would check on the fish every few minutes, and they would suffer slowly too, though not like the fish. like i said, i'm not sure if what i said is true, but it makes sense to me.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

There's always the garbage disposal method. Yes, it's horrifying to think about. But, unlike a hammer, a disposal won't ever miss. If you can do it, this is the quickest, most assured death I've ever heard of.


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## Edub (Mar 23, 2011)

I feel like "can't do it" shouldn't be an excuse for anyone to extend the time it takes to kill their fish. If it becomes necessary to kill your fish (or anything, for that matter) you shouldn't be concerned about how it makes YOU feel, instead you should be thinking about the quickest and most painless way to dispatch the poor creature. Anything else is incredibly selfish.

Put yourself in the fish's shoes. If you had a choice, would you rather go out quickly and painlessly or die a slow death in the freezer because someone "wasn't comfortable with killing?"


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## Vincent Tran (Aug 7, 2012)

Edub said:


> I feel like "can't do it" shouldn't be an excuse for anyone to extend the time it takes to kill their fish. If it becomes necessary to kill your fish (or anything, for that matter) you shouldn't be concerned about how it makes YOU feel, instead you should be thinking about the quickest and most painless way to dispatch the poor creature. Anything else is incredibly selfish.
> 
> Put yourself in the fish's shoes. If you had a choice, would you rather go out quickly and painlessly or die a slow death in the freezer because someone "wasn't comfortable with killing?"


I personally don't do it, but I thought the freezer method was used because the lower temperatures put the fish to sleep and then would keep them in their sleep.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Fish are kind of like reptiles right? In the sense their body temperature is controlled by their environment.


As such a freezer is very humane their body cools and they slip into a coma so to speak before they die, so pretty humane.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong

Sent from a dark corner in my happy place


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## brogan (Jan 16, 2012)

NWA-Planted said:


> Fish are kind of like reptiles right? In the sense their body temperature is controlled by their environment.
> 
> 
> As such a freezer is very humane their body cools and they slip into a coma so to speak before they die, so pretty humane.
> ...


+1 I Think it is more humane to put them down this way.


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

Reptile breeders advocate against using freezers as it is seen as inhumane FYI. 

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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

the thing about freezing is it slowly rips apart the cell structure as it works, think about how meat burns in the freezer... and try and decide if you'd want to die like that. 

besides the pain factor, it's not instant at all and being instant is the only way to be humane. somewhere, there's an ASPCA (or someone? i forget who) official list of methods of putting animals down, i referred to it when i had to put down a very sick frog and freezing (for any animal!) was strongly discouraged...


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## storrisch (Jan 22, 2011)

Freezer FTW


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

I use the garbage disposal as well - it's over in a split second.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

When the water temps drop the metabolic rate lowers. At a certain point reduced blood flow to the brain induces coma, then the organs shut down and the the heart stops. There is no over stimulation to the nerves.(what we call pain)

As death go that's about as low drama as it gets.

Nothing other than instant traumatic destruction of the brain is more humane.

I put the fish in a small bag of water in the freezer before I leave the house for the day. When I return the frozen bag & the deceased go out to the trash and life goes on.

When I was breeding cichlids I had an Oscar that was my Quality Control Mgr. he handled the culls.


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

Euthanizing anything via freezing is painful and distressing. We had a client that put down a sick bird in the freezer then brought it in for necropsy (pretty efficient way to ensure we wouldn't be pulling accurate swabs!) and the horribly contorted state the bird was in gave every indication that it was NOT quick and painless. The only time I have ever used cold to euthanize was when I got a baby turtle that was so horribly mangled that it was a crushed mess. Rather than try to pull its head out to get to the base of its neck and cause it more pain I submerged it in an ice bath and the sudden shock of temp changes literally killed him instantly. I learner that from a visiting wildlife biologist at one of our clinics. This little turtle probably weighed 70 grams, though. The short of it is that freezing fish is not a desirable means of euthanization. There is also the fact that they can't breathe adequately adding to the pain of cellular destruction.


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

DogFish said:


> When the water temps drop the metabolic rate lowers. At a certain point reduced blood flow to the brain induces coma, then the organs shut down and the the heart stops. There is no over stimulation to the nerves.(what we call pain)
> 
> As death go that's about as low drama as it gets.
> 
> ...


Yeah but before coma is pain from being cold. 

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## Hidden Walrus (Oct 2, 2012)

I don't think allowing a fish to slowly freeze, like going slowly from 78 degrees F to 30 over the course of a few hours is very humane because the fish's blood vessels explode. However, in my experience quickly removing a tropical fish from it's warm water and dropping it into ice water (literally, more ice than water) is humane. I once euthanized an ailing betta fish this way and in literally two seconds he had died. He jerked once, gasped, and then he was still. Still, just in case he was just in shock, I netted the unmoving body and thwacked it against the table. I'm not sure whether this would instantly kill goldfishes or other hardy fish however.


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

HighDesert said:


> We had a client that put down a sick bird in the freezer then brought it in for necropsy (pretty efficient way to ensure we wouldn't be pulling accurate swabs!) and the horribly contorted state the bird was in gave every indication that it was NOT quick and painless.


I can't believe someone would do this - totally disgusting.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Fish, in water with rapidly falling temp. is hardly the same as putting a live bird in a freezer. i don't advocate tossing a fish into a freezer to flop around and freeze solid to the side of the Dove Bars. 

I got the to the early stages of hyperthermia about 10 years ago. I got soaked while Elk hunting at 11K ft. I managed to keep my wits and hike just over a mile to camp. When I stumbled in I was shivering, exhaustion and starting to get confused. Fortunately, my friends we in camp to help. Dry cloths, warm water to sip, and I'm here today to take about it. I can honestly say I had no feeling of pain. I was/am experience enough to have know to force myself to stay calm & focused.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Hidden Walrus said:


> I don't think allowing a fish to slowly freeze, like going slowly from 78 degrees F to 30 over the course of a few hours is very humane because the fish's blood vessels explode. ...


I don't believe that happens, do you have a Link to support that?


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## Public Alias (Mar 25, 2012)

It seems that there isn't really going to be any consensus here about freezing being good or bad, but here are some alternative methods I have heard of.

Decapitation. Very quick if the fish is big enough to get a reliable grip on. Post decapitation it is necessary to somehow destroy the brain so that the head does not stay conscious in what I can only imagine as being what seams like hellish eternity, although probably only a few minutes.

Gassing. I've read that if you put the fish in a container with water and add an alka-seltzer tab or two the CO2 will knock them out and suffocate them. I'm not sure how quick and painless this is though. Doesn't alka-seltzer have lemon flavor? Would that burn the gills?

There are also instructions out there on using clove oil and alcohol. Some seem to think these are the best methods.

I always thought there must be some way to quickly do it with an electric charge, but that would bring same serious issues regarding safety into question.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

DogFish said:


> Fish, in water with rapidly falling temp. is hardly the same as putting a live bird in a freezer. i don't advocate tossing a fish into a freezer to flop around and freeze solid to the side of the Dove Bars.
> 
> I got the to the early stages of hyperthermia about 10 years ago. I got soaked while Elk hunting at 11K ft. I managed to keep my wits and hike just over a mile to camp. When I stumbled in I was shivering, exhaustion and starting to get confused. Fortunately, my friends we in camp to help. Dry cloths, warm water to sip, and I'm here today to take about it. I can honestly say I had no feeling of pain. I was/am experience enough to have know to force myself to stay calm & focused.


This. 

In 2004 I fell in a lake while (foolishly) ice fishing in November. The water was about 38 degrees(there is the foolish part...). It took my friends about 4 minutes to get me out of the water. It was another 4-5 before we got to shore, another minute or two of fumbling to strip naked and get in a truck with the heat on and dry blankets. It was about 10 minutes to the hospital and my core temp was 94 degrees--still hypothermic despite 10 minutes of active warming. 

The only point I experienced pain was during warming. The shock of falling in the water and the near drowning experience scared the bejesus out of me, but it didn't hurt. As a matter of fact, after being pulled from the water, I remember basically none of it. I'm sure my recollection of being in the water is abbreviated. My brain was both hypoxic and hypothermic, so you're not really able to comprehend anything, even basic things like pain and temp. 

I'm not advocating this method of euthanasia, but I think people have general outrage to things without generally understanding all of the science around it.


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## pnkflyd669 (Jun 24, 2012)

Whats wrong with just flushing them?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

pnkflyd669 said:


> Whats wrong with just flushing them?


Can I dump you in manure lagoon when you get old or start dying from cancer?

A slow death of suffocation by feces and waste processing chemicals?


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

The most recent consensus is that freezing is very painful and inhumane. Ice crystals form in the blood/cells.
The mind is the last to go (was reading this on reptiles) and they are conscious of what is happening while the rest of the body shuts down first. Im not entirely sure the difference with humans freezing and ectotherms, but maybe someone can find some sciencey articles on that. 

Want to put a fish down?
Clove oil is an easy way to put a fish to sleep. Or quick physical trauma- get the brain/spine severed, crushed, destroyed using force. Its downright 'dirty' so it is easier for people to put a fish in a freezer and not worry about it vs using your own hands to end a life right there.


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## CatB (Jan 29, 2012)

on a related subject (if the OP wants me to make another thread i can), does anybody know how painless suffocation by baking soda is?

i think it's related to gassing with alka-seltzer, but the last time i was at a friend's house we felt it necessary to put down one of her EXTREMELY sick fish (he was under a piece of driftwood with his tail down, shaking and he'd been that way for days) and we weren't sure how, so we googled methods and we found that you can put a whole lot of baking soda in water, mix, and drop the fish in and they'll die...

it seemed to pretty instantly take away his ability to swim, he floated to the top of the jar in seconds, and he stopped moving his body but his gills continued to move, which made me wonder if he wasn't in pain while alive? i'm not sure if there's any way to know what moment a fish stops feeling pain, but has anyone else used this method? what were your experiences?


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## fluff34567 (Nov 15, 2005)

no prob with the above staying in here, its all welcome.

my thoughts with the freezer are different to some on here, people say ripping apart etc but are they not basing that on a human body? th temperature range a human can suvive is very wide , say 60 celcius swing.

tropical fish have a fairly narrow livable temperature range so to go from 26-28c /82 f to -20C / -4F in a few seconds would result in a very quick bodily shut down i would say.

of course brainal injury would be the quickest but thats a tad difficult with a neon unless you bash it with a meat hammer !


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## pinoyghost2 (Feb 13, 2012)

+1 for clove oil...it is absorbed thru the fish's gills and the fish slowly goes to sleep, then you can freeze the body to make sure life has gone 

I had to do this for one of my Bettas...it swam around in circles in the container for a few minutes then just floated on its side and I then froze it, and put it out in the trash.

You can use clove oil to anesthetize fish for surgery too, its the same when you have a toothache, rub clove oil on it and wham no feeling whatsoever (course the whole area goes numb too, but when its a toothache who cares ) The fish just goes numb and its brain slowly shuts down.


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## 50089 (Dec 11, 2011)

I put a bowl of water in the freezer until ice forms at the top (don't let it freeze all the way through), then I break the ice and net the fish in. The fish dies instantly due to the temp shock. Much more humane than freezing slowly IMO.


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## JustJen (Jun 20, 2011)

I've done this before, and it seems to be the quickest way that I can stomach. I fill a bowl with water and ice, and put it in the freezer until their is a very thin film of ice over the top. I pull it out, break the film, and toss the fish in. Within 2 seconds, they're gone. I can deal with that. 

I used to use the disposal when I had one, but my current house doesn't, so this method is what I use.



Hidden Walrus said:


> I don't think allowing a fish to slowly freeze, like going slowly from 78 degrees F to 30 over the course of a few hours is very humane because the fish's blood vessels explode. However, in my experience quickly removing a tropical fish from it's warm water and dropping it into ice water (literally, more ice than water) is humane. I once euthanized an ailing betta fish this way and in literally two seconds he had died. He jerked once, gasped, and then he was still. Still, just in case he was just in shock, I netted the unmoving body and thwacked it against the table. I'm not sure whether this would instantly kill goldfishes or other hardy fish however.


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## ShyShrimpDoc (Jun 28, 2012)

My vote- liquid nitrogen. Then toss it at a hard surface and see if it really shatters. I tried it with a bouncing ball once. They are not as easy to shatter as science professors would have you believe.


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## Zefrik (Oct 23, 2011)

I ran my fish over with a minivan.


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## Hidden Walrus (Oct 2, 2012)

"I don't believe that happens, do you have a Link to support that?"

No, but I figured that blood is liquid, and the liquids expand when they freeze, which would make the frozen blood too large for the vessels, breaking them open and I imagine that would not feel too good.


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## Fundulopanchax (Sep 13, 2012)

I am new to this forum but not new to pets or the use of common sense. 
If you claim to be an aquarist of at least moderate experience you should probably also possess enough common sense to see that there is no empirical evidence that putting a living fish in a freezer is 'humane' and that the fish does not suffer from this death. It is however, quite evident that decapitating a fish is the most efficient way to give it a quick death.


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

Alright guys, now I have to ask, because all you have discussed begs the question, why does it matter?

If you're going to kill the fish anyways, why does it matter how you kill the fish? Because it feels less pain? Because you feel less pain?

You need to step back and realize that there are plenty more fish in the sea, and that's that is all it is, a fish you took from the sea. Sometimes when you love something, you have to just hit it with a hammer.


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## Vincent Tran (Aug 7, 2012)

Hidden Walrus said:


> "I don't believe that happens, do you have a Link to support that?"
> 
> No, but I figured that blood is liquid, and the liquids expand when they freeze, which would make the frozen blood too large for the vessels, breaking them open and I imagine that would not feel too good.


I'm pretty sure that the fish would die before the blood froze..


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## KFryman (Sep 4, 2012)

I used clove oil before, actually worked quite well. My hands and everything just smeeled like clove oil. It pretty much put the fish to sleep. I got all the information on how to do it on an Oscar forum.


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## charms (Jan 8, 2012)

+1 on the Clove Oil. Clove oil + tank water.. Hubby says our fist sized goldfish was floating in seconds. Quick and (seemingly) humane gets my vote every time :-\

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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Fundulopanchax said:


> ....
> If you claim to be an aquarist of at least moderate experience you should probably also possess enough common sense to see that there is no empirical evidence that putting a living fish in a freezer is 'humane' and that the fish does not suffer from this death....


I would offer a reasonable person would try to educate themselves on the physiological effects of any method before adopting it as a solution or criticizing others for their choice. I do understand this can be a disturbing topic for the more emotional members of the community. 

BTW - Welcome to the forum


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

AVN said:


> Alright guys, now I have to ask, because all you have discussed begs the question, why does it matter?
> 
> If you're going to kill the fish anyways, why does it matter how you kill the fish? Because it feels less pain? Because you feel less pain?
> 
> You need to step back and realize that there are plenty more fish in the sea, and that's that is all it is, a fish you took from the sea. Sometimes when you love something, you have to just hit it with a hammer.


Because current research shows that fish feel pain, and you show compassion by being humane in killing an animal. Of course, some people wont care, to them it is just a fish. But to some, they are beloved pets just like any dog or cat. Would you put your dog in a freezer to humanely put it to sleep?


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

That's a really bad question to ask me. I breed and train aggressive hunting dogs for a living and I have to hit them all the time. Sometimes they just refuse to listen, and choose to fight for pack dominance. Sometimes I wish I could toss a couple of them in the freezer. >__>

You gotta be inhumane, you gotta lay the smack down, whistle their ears off, wet them, or you shock them with collars. Whichever tells your dog that you're the dominant one.

I deal with this "humane" bullshizzzz all the time, especially when someone who is uneducated and uninformed about the dog training field tells me that the way I treat my pack is inhumane. No fuqqing shizzznazz, they're not humans, they don't understand as we do. You can't reason with an animal, hell, you can barely even tell them what to do at times.

Don't get me wrong, I am not advocating for the inhumane treatment of animals. I do love my animals, but not to the point where I care about the way they feel as they die. There's a point where they become "just fish." If given the choice, of course any sensible person would choose to end their pet's life painlessly, I am no different, but that doesn't mean that every single animal alive warrants the same treatment. Who is to say that it is wrong to kill your fish with a hammer? Or to freeze it?

Whether clove oil, hammertime, or just tossing it in the freezer. It's just another animal that you are putting down. It's all about morality and perspective, to each their own.


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

hmm... Since I have an absolute phobia to dead and dying stuff... I don't touch dying fish.... I would let them die at their own pace in a quarantine tank. then I'll dig a hole deep enough in the garden and pour the water+fish into the hole and bury it.


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

aokashi said:


> hmm... Since I have an absolute phobia to dead and dying stuff... I don't touch dying fish.... I would let them die at their own pace in a quarantine tank. then I'll dig a hole deep enough in the garden and pour the water+fish into the hole and bury it.


And is this your view of humane? What if the fish is slowly suffering as it dies? In this case, wouldn't it be more humane and compassionate to smash it with a hammer?


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

AVN said:


> That's a really bad question to ask me. I breed and train aggressive hunting dogs for a living and I have to hit them all the time. Sometimes they just refuse to listen, and choose to fight for pack dominance. Sometimes I wish I could toss a couple of them in the freezer. >__>
> 
> You gotta be inhumane, you gotta lay the smack down, whistle their ears off, wet them, or you shock them with collars. Whichever tells your dog that you're the dominant one.
> 
> ...


Um you do realise that the dominance/pack leader dog training theory is 30 years out of date and there are much more humane ways to train dogs? Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways? 

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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

starrlamia said:


> Um you do realise that the dominance/pack leader dog training theory is 30 years out of date and there are much more humane ways to train dogs? Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


Adding in that there is now solid science behind dog behaviour and learning. Saying it is not inhumane nor are there better ways is ignorant. 

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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for. Not to mention I now have years of experience working with professional trainers.

First off, 30 years out of date? Did the dogs evolve to no longer recognize the chain of dominance in those 30 years? You realize no matter how many years go by, dogs will always live and respond to a pack hierarchy right?
*It's their instinct and natural way of life, it's how their society is structured.*

Now, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use (the "more humane and less ignorant" ones), and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses that are humane.



> Hitting an animal is abuse plain and simple, why use pain and fear to train when you can use much better ways?


*This statement shows me you've never trained an animal unwilling to obey before.*

I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool. I don't beat my dogs when I want them to listen to me, I don't instill in them a fear of my fist. I only punish them in a manner that I deem is aggressive enough to for them to respond submissively to, nothing further. I am not a dog-beating maniac, I am their master.

I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be different than what you believe it to be.

IE: You think me slapping my pack's snouts or behinds when they're extremely disobedient is inhumane. Yet to the dog they really don't care, they only know it as punishment for disobedience. You say it's pain, abuse, that is teaches them fear. Yet when I raise my hand to strike them, they do not flinch. Do you know why? Because they are not fearful, they do not feel abused or frightened of what is coming to them.


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

AVN said:


> Please enlighten me about my career that I spent years training and studying for.
> 
> Really, I'd like to hear about the methods you think I use, methods that I should use, and methods that you THINK your local dog trainer uses.
> 
> I never said that I only used negative reinforcement as a training tool-don't put words into my mouth. I only said that humane is in the eye of the beholder, and that humane treatment of animals for someone else can be loosely defined


You went to school for dog behaviour? I'm sure than you are familiar with operant conditioning and the affects that positive and negative reinforcers have on behaviour and the psyche. Science has shown that dogs have similar emotional centres in their brains and can in fact experience fear and anxiety. Using negative reinforcement esp physical pain can cause unneeded anxiety on dogs. It can also cause learned helplessness and ptsd. I don't agree with most local trainers, unfortunately the industry is unregulated and anyone can call themselves a trainer. Instead I rely on information from those who have actual phds in canine and animal behaviour for information on what is the best way to train and teach. 

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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs. Science has come a long way in 30 years, we have learned a lot about animal behaviour in that time. If you feel like reading up on it, Google Patricia mcconnell, Karen Pryor and Sophia yin, all well respected experts in animal behaviour. You can also search for dominance /pack theory debunked and find lots of good info. 

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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

If there was a school that gave me a PhD in Dogs, I would go. No, I worked as an understudy for a kennel breeder in my area. I know all about dog psychology, I've read many books.

I know everything that you just told me, (The debunking of dog pack dominance is actually controversial in the field as it is NOT CONFIRMED OR ACCEPTED BY ALL PROFESSIONAL LEVEL BREEDERS/DOG TRAINERS) but again, you are missing the freaking point of my posts. We're not here to talk about dogs and how dogs think, behave, and learn. Because I know for a fact that given long enough discussing, or even if you watched me in action, you would agree that what I'm doing is in no way abusive or inhumane. To an outsider with no experience, of course it sounds inhumane when you imagine it in your head, but that's all it is. You simply not knowing what you're talking about.

Back to the point. We're talking about the degrees of "humane" and how the meaning of such a loosely defined word can change from individual to individual, be them animal or man.

I projected a question for you to answer, what defines humane? What makes it so it's okay to clove oil a fish, but not to freeze it, or not to hammer.

Is it nothing more than a simple measure of pain?


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

starrlamia said:


> Ps I own 2 terriers I am well versed in stubborn and defiant dogs.


No. You're talking about medium level defiant dogs. You don't EVER need to punish a dog like that physically.

I rehabilitate dogs that have bitten and mauled people. OVERLY aggressive dogs.
I work with *HUNTING* dogs. Dogs that refuse to obey for treats, let alone acknowledge your commands or positive reinforcements.

Prison-caliber dogs for lack of a better metaphor. Not small-time sheltered rebel dogs like yours.


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

AVN said:


> No. You're talking about medium level defiant dogs. You don't EVER need to punish a dog like that physically.
> 
> I rehabilitate dogs that have bitten and mauled people. OVERLY aggressive dogs.
> I work with *HUNTING* dogs. Dogs that refuse to obey for treats, let alone acknowledge your commands or positive reinforcements.
> ...


I worked with a woman who rehabilitates aggressive dogs for a living and is the head of a well known bite prevention program here who uses only positive reinforcement (clicker training). And yes there are schools to obtain degrees in animal behaviour, I can find you a list if you would like. 

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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

Whoops hit enter, 4am lol. The reason that dog training is so controversial imo is because people don't like to admit when they are wrong and have a hard time evolving. I highly recommend reading the book, when pigs fly by Jane killion, it is all about using clicker training with stubborn dogs. 

In any case humane to me is respect and a desire to minimise suffering. 

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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

Www.animalbehaviorsociety.org, has links to how to get degrees in animal behaviour. 

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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

Need to bring the topic of fish back in.. subtly....
hmm...

Dogfish anyone?

@ starrlamia- oh and you can edit your posts via tapatalk through the more> modify option when tapping on a post...


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

I am not disagreeing with you that there are other ways to train dogs. I work part time at my local Petco as a dog/puppy trainer, and of course I am not allowed to hit any of the dogs, so positive reinforcement is the ONLY method I use.

However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly. when it comes to stubborn or ill-tempered dogs, sometimes negative reinforcement is the most efficient way to teach them.

You would not believe the stories I've heard of people beating their ill-behaved dogs and then having them lash out and biting them.

I do not do that crap. I am a passionate trainer with lots of experience and knowledge, so I find it insulting that I would even be grouped into the same category as these amateur trainers who have no clue what they're doing. 

Most of them only have misconstrued conceptions of what dog behavior and psychology is, and all they know is the [censored][censored][censored][censored] they found on Google.

I do not make any of my dogs suffer. But I do punish them accordingly to their offense. If they maul another dog, or a trainer, they get the slap to the face. It's the equivalent of getting bitten by the pack leader. I don't go out of my way to rough up the dog, or to beat it into submission. Just a simple verbal scolding followed by a sharp and quick physical punishment. 

So in your sense of the word, this is humane, even though it causes the dog discomfort and pain.


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

aokashi said:


> Need to bring the topic of fish back in.. subtly....
> hmm...
> 
> Dogfish anyone?


Dogfish are a species of shark!


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## aokashi (Jun 12, 2012)

orly? lolol 
*goes off to google*

*comes back from googling*

pfft, looks nothing like a dog >.>

I was rather amused when I fist saw horse head loaches


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiny_dogfish

Let's let the thread go back to being what it was before we took it over. Good night~


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## Patriot (Dec 22, 2010)

But what if the fish is too small, like a neon tetra to smash on the head. My tetras were infested with some sort of parasites that caused some sort of mucus to build up around their bodies. They were already weak and in pain most likely. I just threw them in the freezer and they were dead in less than a minute.


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## Jericho199 (Mar 18, 2011)

The most humane way to euthanize fish is by using Finquel and baking soda in some tank water. The fish will quickly go to sleep and simply stops breathing under the anesthesia. The entire process takes less than 5 minutes.

http://thegab.org/Illness-and-Treatment/euthanasia.html


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## Bunfoo (Jan 14, 2012)

I know some people say a few drops of clove oil before putting it in the freeze causes the fish to lose consciousnesses. 

honestly the best way to kill something is fast, hard, and never miss. I have been in situations before that have been pretty bad and required immediate euthanasia, like when my dog escaped our house and was hit by a slow-moving truck just outside of our driveway, he was hit with just enough force to break 3 legs, several ribs, ruptured his intestines and puncture a lung. I had a relative go back in the house and bring me my gun and we ended it then and there. That dog was not going to make it and I wasn't going to make him suffer. It was messy but they only thing I could do.

I would do this with any pet that really needed it. The few times I have had to take out a fish I have just taken a heavy brick to them (for the small guys). For the bigger guys, I have used the disposal, and a blender on high (Seems bad, but they're gone in a second and don't feel a thing)

I see freezing reccomended for all kinds of animals, especially the ones deemed not "worth" taking to a vet (such as hamsters, rats, fish, etc), and as a result a LOT of small pets really suffer in the freezer. In small pets, the extremities can suffer severe frostbite before the host dies. They stop moving because it becomes painful to move muscles once they fall under a comfortable temperature. 

If you have to take anything down, then it should either be at a vet, or, if you are SURE you can do it 100% properly NO chance of mistakes, at home, with a proper, quick, painless death, even if it makes you feel bad or uneasy. If you can't stand to watch it, you shouldn't try to kill it at home!


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

As a few have said the best method for euthanasia is using clove oil. As far as decapitation goes you need to stun the fish first as nerve tissue is tolerant of anoxia, and the brain may continue to function for some time after decapitation. Now on to the OP's question as far as freezing fish. Many fish are able to cope with very low temperatures and just because a fish cannot respond to a stimulus when hypothermic does not guarantee that it cannot perceive it. I have seen it mentioned that you can place a fish in a small amount of water and add several of those CO2 tablets or alka seltzer tabs(or if you have a CO2 system) put in large quantities of CO2 but to me that seems would not be the fastest way for euthanasia. I would still go with the clove oil method as it seems to be the method that is most widely accepted as fast and humane as it can be.


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## devilduck (May 9, 2012)

A quick beheading with the kitchen knife works fine with aquarium fish as live fish you would butcher for dinner.


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## Hidden Walrus (Oct 2, 2012)

I think carbon dioxide poisoning is a very peaceful way to go. I had a very old pet rat that suddenly became paralyzed one day. The vet wouldn't put him down. I looked up on the internet and followed directions to mix a certain amount of baking soda with vinegar in an aquarium and set the rat in a little box on a towel and slowly add more and more vinegar to the tank around the box. He curled up, yawned, and went to sleep as the high level of carbon dioxide took effect and when he was unconscious I added more vinegar so that the co2 rose to a fatal level. He just went to sleep and never woke up. Very humane. I'm not sure that fish would behave the same way because they seem pretty uncomfortable when co2 rises too high in an aquarium, but a very peaceful way to put down small animals.


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

wendyjo said:


> I can't believe someone would do this - totally disgusting.


Yeah, I just about lost my breakfast. I don't even kill insects without full need (mosquitoes have it coming, IMO!) without just cause. I had one woman bring in a cat that was in kidney failure that she tried to OD with her husband's insulin to "put it out of its misery". It didn't work. We called Animal Control to handle the case after euthanizing the poor cat. I don't know if she was arrested or not. People do some really disgusting, sickening things sometimes.


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

Hidden Walrus said:


> I think carbon dioxide poisoning is a very peaceful way to go. I had a very old pet rat that suddenly became paralyzed one day. The vet wouldn't put him down. I looked up on the internet and followed directions to mix a certain amount of baking soda with vinegar in an aquarium and set the rat in a little box on a towel and slowly add more and more vinegar to the tank around the box. He curled up, yawned, and went to sleep as the high level of carbon dioxide took effect and when he was unconscious I added more vinegar so that the co2 rose to a fatal level. He just went to sleep and never woke up. Very humane. I'm not sure that fish would behave the same way because they seem pretty uncomfortable when co2 rises too high in an aquarium, but a very peaceful way to put down small animals.


I'm glad you researched and figured out a more kind way to euthanize your rat, but I am really disturbed that a veterinarian would not do it for you. That seems really unconscionable. I have NEVER enjoyed euthanizing, but sometimes you take one look at a critter and know that they are in so much pain/discomfort that it truly is the kindest thing to do and have to put yourself and your qualms about taking their lives aside.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

devilduck said:


> A quick beheading with the kitchen knife works fine with aquarium fish as live fish you would butcher for dinner.


As I stated above the brain still functions after decapitation. Watch the mouth of a fish after you decapitate and see it open and close its mouth for several minutes afterwards.


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

DogFish said:


> When the water temps drop the metabolic rate lowers. At a certain point reduced blood flow to the brain induces coma, then the organs shut down and the the heart stops. There is no over stimulation to the nerves.(what we call pain)
> 
> I put the fish in a small bag of water in the freezer before I leave the house for the day. When I return the frozen bag & the deceased go out to the trash and life goes on.


This follows along the lines of the "shock" method and is much easier to stomach. This is a gradual temperature decrease, so the metabolism slows and so does the fish, but it is not being suffocated at the same time. What bothers me is fish being removed from the water into an uncomfortable environment and then being exposed to cold air which surely hurts as they try to breathe it. I've had frost bite before and it hurt like hell as it started to set in, stopped hurting, and then the thawing hurt like hell again. So I think that the "fish out of water, into the freezer" method is somewhat barbaric.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

AVN said:


> Dogfish are a species of shark!


In my case Dog-Fish are my hobbies/passions in life. I do private human training for people that own larger bred, dominate dogs. 

Koehler method was developed to get dogs ready for military for battle. The mindset at that time toward the dogs was more medieval. There wasn't much concern administrate;y if they came home or not.

"However, there is no argument in the community that negative reinforcement is an effective and HARMLESS training tool if done correctly."

If by negative re-imforcement you mean Hanging a dog, using a Prong, Choker, Zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true. 

At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.

Now if if you might mean Negitive re-enforcement via ignoring the dog holding back praise, ball or food yes I agree and I use that approach.

As far as "Old School" I learned that way 30 yrs ago. I reject those methods as I prefer the Sirus method and that's the style I train in. I want my dogs to "excute" commands because they want to not out of fear of punishment.

Just to bring it home I've owned Catahoulas that have high pointed in Open Bays, Am. Bulldog that was Civil PP trained, Rottweiler that is retired Schutzhund dog...All have gotten TDI certs, all championed in conformation. 

I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way. I do understand the challenges with working a pack. However, all animal training is ultimately Silmulus/Responce. It's really only a matter of which stimulus you choose to present to the dog.


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## Rainer (Jan 30, 2011)

DogFish said:


> I hunt myself and among other this have hunted hawgs in Tn. the traditional way.


Boar spear?


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

DogFish said:


> If by negative reinforcement you mean hanging a dog, using a Prong, choker, zapping it with an E-collar or shaking it then your quote that's just not completely true.
> 
> At best it's acceptable depending on the "community" of training one is involved in. Hunting, Schutzhund, Civil PP, Obedience Comp. maybe, Therapy, Service dogs, Agility, no...not so much.
> 
> ...


Someone who knows what he's talking about!

I don't train my dogs to execute commands because they're fearful of what may happen when they don't, they execute commands because they receive praise and positive reinforcement. Most of them want to obey of their own free will, not because they're afraid I'll punish them.

I am not referring to prongs, shock, choke, etc, etc. I don't use those methods as I know when abused they can lead to long-term behavioral damage of the dog in question.

When referring to negative reinforcement, it is exactly as you say, withholding of rewards, scoldings, and in the extreme cases a "slap on the wrist." Punishing the dog when it does something it's not supposed to do, not punishing it because it didn't do what you want it to do.


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## Michael M (Sep 20, 2012)

Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???


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## starrlamia (Jul 31, 2012)

Michael M said:


> Where is Cesar Millan when you need him???


Don't get me started on that guy. 

I'm just eye rolling the above post. 

Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk 2


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## Michael M (Sep 20, 2012)

The best part about this thread is the 'garbage disposal' method.

That is the equivalent of tossing your sick family dog into a wood chipper.

Hilarious. I think I'd rather freeze to death, personally.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I never liked the idea of putting fish in the freezer, first of all it's where I keep the food I'm going to eat plus I think it takes about the same amount of time to die in the trash can/toilet as it does waiting to freeze to death.

I personally let my fish die in the tank or if you will at home just like I would want to be treated. If the have some decease that I can't treat another night in the tank isn't going to make a difference in the grand scheme of things and if it's contagious the rest of the crew already has it anyway. But I have never had a problem buy letting them die in the tank and I have rarely if ever tossed a live fish in the trash, toilet, or freezer but none of them sound like a better way to go unless you've got fish morphine.


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## Michael M (Sep 20, 2012)

If a fish is sick I quarantine it in a small tank with an air stone, treat it if possible and hope it recovers or let it die quietly in peace.

I don't see how that is cruel.


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

Michael M said:


> If a fish is sick I quarantine it in a small tank with an air stone, treat it if possible and hope it recovers or let it die quietly in peace.
> 
> I don't see how that is cruel.


I do the same thing with ill animals. Unless something is so horribly injured that there is no way it will ever recover and is going to be in agonizing pain for an extended period of time. Like that baby turtle I mentioned in a previous post. I have Buddhist leanings and tend to believe that if something isn't suffering badly, then letting it live out its natural lifespan and finish its life cycle is the way to go. I don't think it's cruel. It's just the pain factor that I can't deal with -- I've been around waaaay too many mortally wounded creatures that are suffering and in such severe pain to be able to just walk away and let them continue hurting for any period of time.


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## DogFish (Jul 16, 2011)

Rainer said:


> Boar spear?


 Behind dogs with Knife. In Europe spears were used by Nobility. I'm a humble commoner.


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## ShyShrimpDoc (Jun 28, 2012)

As to the use of a gun comment, I am not sure i could hit a fish, at least not any I own (maybe my bigger pleco, but definitely not a threadfin or khuli loach). And I am fairly decent with a gun. Besides digging the bullet out of wherever it winds up and explaining to the police why I fired a gun in my apartment are more than I'd want to go through for a fish. In the lab we overdosed them on MS222. It works good as long as you buffer the pH. Quick and painless (since it blocks neural conduction). Problems with home use: short storage life when mixed, and requires special disposal considerations.


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## CatSoup (Sep 21, 2012)

AVN said:


> Sometimes when you love something, you have to just hit it with a hammer.


Not as classic as the Dead Milkmen's "If you love somebody, why not set them on fire?" line, but hey, I like it.


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## CatSoup (Sep 21, 2012)

AVN said:


> That's a really bad question to ask me. I breed and train aggressive hunting dogs for a living and I have to hit them all the time. Sometimes they just refuse to listen, and choose to fight for pack dominance. Sometimes I wish I could toss a couple of them in the freezer. >__>
> 
> You gotta be inhumane, you gotta lay the smack down, whistle their ears off, wet them, or you shock them with collars. Whichever tells your dog that you're the dominant one.
> 
> ...


I don't even disagree with this 100%, but...*gag* I think you are trying to rile people up by putting it this way. But who knows? Maybe that is your personality. 
Anyway, I'm all for the pack leader method. I think they're smarter than you are giving them credit for in the statement above, but this is the method they rule themselves by. I hate being a disciplinarian, hell, that's why my kids run me ragged, but I know it's needed for a stable environment.


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## CatSoup (Sep 21, 2012)

Back to topic, sorry...
I will be looking into getting some clove oil when it's needed.


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