# BBA Help



## Fallon (Oct 17, 2018)

I'm no expert but I've had a couple of outbreaks of BBA in a low tech, I've found high organics at least in my experience to be a big factor. I now feed next to the filter inlet and step up my gravel vac as well as removing any effected leaves. I'm sure youll receive better advice but just thought I'd share my 2c.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Phosphates are too high - ideally, you want .05ppm or less. My guess is that you're using tap water?


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

I am using tap water, which has a KH of 2 and GH of 1 and boosting it with 0.75g of Equilibrium per gallon to bring my KH up, as well as dosed with prime.

I store the water in a food safe 5 gallon bucket with a powerhead and heater and its usually mixed a week before water changes.

I just checked my water change water (prepped tap water) and the levels for phosphate are 2 ppm

The top off water for the tank is distilled and kept level with an ATO.

I will be checking my TDS soon as well to see the organics comparison from my adjusted tap water and my tank.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

sdl1982 said:


> I am using tap water, which has a KH of 2 and GH of 1 and boosting it with 0.75g of Equilibrium per gallon to bring my KH up, as well as dosed with prime.
> I store the water in a food safe 5 gallon bucket with a powerhead and heater and its usually mixed a week before water changes.
> 
> I will need to test the phosphates in my tap water, if it is high I assume that I can throw in some Seachem phosphate remover into the water change bucket to remove them from that water instead of stripping the tank of all phosphates?
> ...



Wow - your tap water is incredibly soft compared to mine here in MN. Premixing for that long isn't necessary, but not a bad idea - always good to let things mix for at least a few minutes before adding. When my GH is low, I add Equilibrium directly into my aquariums and it has no adverse effect other than a slight haze for about 15 minutes.


Yes - I would just do several water changes and treat the water to be changed, rather than make a drastic change directly to the water that's already in the aquarium. Tap water can be notorious for having all sorts of stuff in it beyond phosphates, though. If at all possible, I'd recommend using R/O water w/ Equilibrium and Alkaline Buffer. Ever since I bought my R/O unit, I've found it to be infinitely easier to maintain a healthy aquarium. In fact, I struggled mightily for years until I got it. Then, after several R/O water changes, it seemed like all the issues I struggled with disappeared and I started to feel like a pro. In reality, I'm still far from it, but I would say that it's the single biggest step I've taken in the right direction. That's just my experience, but I think many others that use R/O water would say something similar.

A lot of people test the TDS, but I've never found it to be very useful... it just paints an overall picture of how much mineral content is in the water, nothing specific. GH and KH have been enough to guide me to healthy plants and livestock.


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> Wow - your tap water is incredibly soft compared to mine here in MN. Premixing for that long isn't necessary, but not a bad idea - always good to let things mix for at least a few minutes before adding. When my GH is low, I add Equilibrium directly into my aquariums and it has no adverse effect other than a slight haze for about 15 minutes.
> 
> 
> Yes - I would just do several water changes and treat the water to be changed, rather than make a drastic change directly to the water that's already in the aquarium. Tap water can be notorious for having all sorts of stuff in it beyond phosphates, though. If at all possible, I'd recommend using R/O water w/ Equilibrium and Alkaline Buffer. Ever since I bought my R/O unit, I've found it to be infinitely easier to maintain a healthy aquarium. In fact, I struggled mightily for years until I got it. Then, after several R/O water changes, it seemed like all the issues I struggled with disappeared and I started to feel like a pro. In reality, I'm still far from it, but I would say that it's the single biggest step I've taken in the right direction. That's just my experience, but I think many others that use R/O water would say something similar.
> ...


I did check my TDS today.
Tap = 280ppm
Prepped water change water = 870ppm (3 grams of equilibrium to 4 gallons and 0.5 ml prime)
Tank water = 1170ppm (6 days since last water change)

I had some seachem non phosphate stuff laying around and added it to my water change water last night and so far it has dropped the phosphates from 2 down to 1 so hopefully it will remove the remaining by water change time tomorrow and I will try that for a few weeks while watching the tank phosphate levels, hopefully that helps. If that fixes the problems I am having I will invest in a RO/DI system while I am picking up all the new items for my new larger tank that I am currently building.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

I dont believe it's your phosphates causing a bba, I have 5-10ppm I my tank and have little to no bba. Give your tank a thorough cleaning. Remove, hard scape , equipment, and spray or dip them h202. Spot treat any plants in tank. Trim off bba covered or dieing leaves. Give your substrate a good cleaning, clean your filter, pipes and lower your light intensity for a week or so, watch your tank and see if any new bba growth appears. You can slowly turn your light back up. Keep up tank maintenance. Your parameters look fine to me, I wouldnt let your phosphates drop much further. Good luck


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

A general hardness of 3 combined with a TDS of 280 ppm says there is a lot of dissolved solids in your tap water that are not calcium or magnesium. The most likely other candidate is sodium. I'm going to second quicksilver2299 and suggest R/O if it's in your budget.

I don't know if that accounts for the BBA, though. I've not read that they prosper in brackish water. I had quite a lot in my tank three months ago, when I started converting it to a serious planted tank, and I found dosing with glutaraldehyde (Flourish Excel) helped quite a lot. It did not rid the tank of it entirely, and I'm not convinced it really helped my plants other than clearing algae off them, but it may be worth a try. Stay with a low dose until you see what it does to your plants; there is an urban legend it is hard on mosses and vallisneria.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

You changed fertilizer to PPS-Pro one week ago and you are dosing 1 ml macros and 0.5 ml micros per 10 gallon daily. This sounds good. I assume you used 6x more ingredients since having 3L containers instead of 500 ml. 

Tap water 1 dGH, 2 dKH, TDS 280 ppm NaCl, TDS 560 µS, is not natural, something is fishy here. Such GH and KH water should have 1/3 TDS. What is degassed tap water pH after being in a cup for > 24 hours?

What is your prepped water dGH? Note, TDS testers don’t detect organics. And don’t worry about having 2 ppm PO4, that’s not a problem.


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

Edward said:


> You changed fertilizer to PPS-Pro one week ago and you are dosing 1 ml macros and 0.5 ml micros per 10 gallon daily. This sounds good. I assume you used 6x more ingredients since having 3L containers instead of 500 ml.
> 
> Tap water 1 dGH, 2 dKH, TDS 280 ppm NaCl, TDS 560 µS, is not natural, something is fishy here. Such GH and KH water should have 1/3 TDS. What is degassed tap water pH after being in a cup for > 24 hours?
> 
> What is your prepped water dGH? Note, TDS testers don’t detect organics. And don’t worry about having 2 ppm PO4, that’s not a problem.


I just rechecked all my numbers again and they are as follows

GH and KH were checked with API kit and PH with probe

Tap (not off-gassed will check again in 24 hours)
PH 8.04 
KH 4
GH 2

Prepped water (It has been mixed heated and circulating for 3 days)
PH 7.84
KH 5
GH 5

In terms of the PPS Pro aspect I used 3,000ml of water with the 500ml fert mix recommendations but just increased the amount of liquid dosed daily by 6x to keep the ratio the same.

I do have Excel on hand but I haven't used it in some time as it kills my floating plants. But I could pull the plants for a while and dose Excel until I get everything under control if it comes down to it.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

It sounds like some people are able to get away with high phosphate levels without having algae issues, but I'm willing to bet that other factors in their tank are keeping the algae at bay in these situations. The scientific reality is that phosphates are one of the biggest factors leading to algae growth, and aquarium plants only need a very minimal amount to flourish. Speaking of which, Seachem's Flourish actually contains 10x more chlorine than phosphates, if that tells you anything about how important phosphates are to plant health. Also - I used to maintain swimming pools long before I started keeping planted aquariums, and phosphates were often the main culprit in pools that had algae problems. 

Also, as @kgbudge stated - high TDS with low GH and KH would indicate a lot of minerals in your water that are not necessary for plant health. If you can fit in the budget, remineralized R/O will solve both this and the phosphate issue. The benefits would far outweigh the cost, especially since it would provide excellent drinking water as well.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> The scientific reality is that phosphates are one of the biggest factors leading to algae growth, and aquarium plants only need a very minimal amount to flourish.


I'd say that's more opinion than fact, at least in relation to high tech planted tanks. 

Pretty sure that line of thinking has been pretty much debunked in recent years.

I've kept my tank at PO4 levels that might make you faint. But little to no algae to speak of.

And I have seen far more issues from too little, not too much, PO4.

Just speaking from my own personal experience.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Greggz said:


> I'd say that's more opinion than fact, at least in relation to high tech planted tanks.
> 
> Pretty sure that line of thinking has been pretty much debunked in recent years.
> 
> ...



Right - you're only speaking from your own single experience. I'm speaking from two different types of experience along with scientific theory. Read some articles that are written by professionals/scientists if you don't believe me. If you're maintaining a high enough CO2 level, then you're starving the algae out in another way and the phosphates are not a factor. Regardless of how much effort is made to remove it, there is almost a guarantee that there will be phosphates in the water, anyway. Even 5-stage R/O units won't remove it all.

Here's just one of many: https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.e...e=Nitrate_and_phosphate_levels_positively.pdf


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

How does the CO2 level starve out algae? Is it that they prefer carbonate to bicarbonate?

Algae growth will be slow when whatever is their limiting factor is low. If they have plenty of phosphate, the limiting factor will be something else. My guess is that phosphate is often the limiting factor in a planted tank, but not always. 

The trick is finding something that limits algae growth more than it limits desirable plant growth, and reducing the amount of it in your tank.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

@sdl1982 - In light of the recently started debate, I'm reminded to ask what your CO2 level is when the lights first come on? The CO2 is likely not high enough throughout the entire lighting period to suppress algae growth with phosphates present. Taking gas exchange into account, you may need to make some adjustments.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> Right - you're only speaking from your own single experience.


Precisely.

I've never put much faith in scientific journals when it comes to a high tech planted tank. I believe what I see, and what the tank tells me. Basically trial and error, and finding the best mix/ratios for my own particular set up. 

In my opinion, PO4 is not the bogeyman. Plants like it. A lot. If there is too little, they will whine and tell you about it.

But to each his own. Many ways to manage a tank.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

kgbudge said:


> How does the CO2 level starve out algae? Is it that they prefer carbonate to bicarbonate?
> 
> Algae growth will be slow when whatever is their limiting factor is low. If they have plenty of phosphate, the limiting factor will be something else. My guess is that phosphate is often the limiting factor in a planted tank, but not always.
> 
> The trick is finding something that limits algae growth more than it limits desirable plant growth, and reducing the amount of it in your tank.



You're joking, right? Plants are comprised of carbon more than any other element. CO2 starving out algae is an indirect effect. CO2 is required by plants but not algae... So, if you provide the plants plenty of CO2, then they are enabled to consume the array of nutrients in the water column much faster than the algae can, thus starving it out. It's a very simple concept. 



OK - I've only been on here for a few days, but I'm done with these forums. I got on here thinking I might learn something new, but it's the exact opposite. Even the so-called "gurus" that have been doing this for decades hardly know a damn thing beyond their own experience. No wonder everyone on here has problems... it's the blind leading the blind. I'm reminded that/why intelligent people stay out of the social aspect of the internet and just live in the real world.


Peace, all - best of luck!

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Precisely.
> 
> I've never put much faith in scientific journals when it comes to a high tech planted tank. I believe what I see, and what the tank tells me. Basically trial and error, and finding the best mix/ratios for my own particular set up.
> 
> ...





This is my final post on here - Use science to your advantage! Aquatic plants do not need much phosphate at all... if your plants are "whining", then there's a 99.99% chance that they are deficient of something that you are not taking into consideration.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> You're joking, right? Plants are comprised of carbon more than any other element. CO2 starving out algae is an indirect effect. CO2 is required by plants but not algae... So, if you provide the plants plenty of CO2, then they are enabled to consume the array of nutrients in the water column much faster than the algae can, thus starving it out. It's a very simple concept.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is funny. Your own rant shows how closed minded you are. Your "information" is not scientifically incorrect but you fall victim to the blind men and the elephant parable. The ideas that you so dearly cling to have been outdated in application to planted tanks. 

For you and anyone else reading this, get a cup of your choice beverage and please have a visit to 

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com

for one of the most current compendiums of successful planted tank knowledge circa 2019.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

ipkiss said:


> This is funny. Your own rant shows how closed minded you are. Your "information" is not scientifically incorrect but you fall victim to the blind men and the elephant parable. The ideas that you so dearly cling to have been outdated in application to planted tanks.
> 
> For you and anyone else reading this, get a cup of your choice beverage and please have a visit to
> 
> ...



LMAO! I already use this site as a reference - please point out what info on it contradicts what I have already stated.


Quote from the site: "Many aquarists obsess over nutrient levels, when it's actually CO2 optimization (which is much harder to quantify) that have a much bigger impact on plant health, and by correlation, algae presence/absence in a tank. ​Do not get caught up in "nutrient tunnel vision" when assessing problems. There are many other factors that matter besides nutrient levels."


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

So then, why are you arguing over how "little" phosphates should be instead of showing our member here how to holistically address his bba problem ?

And did you miss the section about ei dosing? Did you also miss the section about excess nutrients?

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/control-algae-excess-nutrients.html

Even pps dosing do not go as low as you advocated

And finally, the site that we both are referencing was created by none other than a "guru" of this forum based on the knowledge and practices of other "gurus" on here that you so vehemently disparaged.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

ipkiss said:


> So then, why are you arguing over how "little" phosphates should be instead of showing our member here how to holistically address his bba problem ?
> 
> And did you miss the section about ei dosing? Did you also miss the section about excess nutrients?
> 
> ...



Have you even read my posts? Phosphates were only one aspect of it. 



A scientific approach requires that only one variable be adjusted at a time. Slow your role, know-it-all.


Quote from site: "Does this mean that we should maintain high levels of nutrients in all tanks? Of course not."

Bump: Quote from site: "In a similar analogy, Does eating additional protein on a daily basis make one fat? It depends - if a person is leading a sedentary lifestyle with little energy output, a net increase in daily calories through increased protein intake will lead to fat gain. However, a person on a muscle building gym program will benefit from the increased protein - building muscle mass and increasing net calorie burn rate; eating addition protein in this case can lead to fat loss. Fitness/builders demonstrate this to the extreme - being extremely lean despite an increased intake of protein/calories. The situation is similarly non-linear when it comes to nutrient dosing and planted tanks."

This is insanely funny, because on top of maintaining successful planted tanks, I workout regularily and consume more protein than average... I have six-pack abs.
@ipkiss - You really are barking up the wrong tree here.

Also, EI dosing is based on a weekly ppm dose, not a sustained measure of ppm.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Ok. Mr pot.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

ipkiss said:


> Ok. Mr pot.



When I feel like it, yeah. :icon_lol: More like Mr. Vodka these days, honestly. If I keep up this trend, I'm going to turn into a rusky.

No hard feelings @ipkiss, I just love intellectual debates.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

ipkiss said:


> Even PPS-Pro dosing do not go as low as you advocated


Eh? There is even leaner system than PPS-Pro, the most popular ONE called ADA Design Amano. 



Edward said:


> *PO4 Evaluation*
> 0.05 ppm
> Number of fish and conditions for plant cultivation are well balanced.


Seriously, turn this thread back to fun again!


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> You're joking, right? Plants are comprised of carbon more than any other element. CO2 starving out algae is an indirect effect. CO2 is required by plants but not algae...


To coin a phrase: You're joking, right? Like green plants, algae reduce water using energy derived from photosynthesis to yield NADPH, and use this in turn to reduce carbon dioxide via the Calvin cycle to manufacture glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and, from there, all the other carbon compounds they need. More precisely, in the case of green plants, they reduce bicarbonate. I have read that algae can use carbonate, and simply wondered if you had information that they _prefer_ carbonate to bicarbonate.

But since you've left the building, I suppose I'm wasting my breath. I'm new here, too, and I feel like I can learn a great deal about the practical aspects of keeping a planted aquarium from the others here. Too bad it hasn't work out for you.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Edward said:


> Eh? There is even leaner system than PPS-Pro, the most popular ONE called ADA Design Amano.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously, turn this thread back to fun again!



Anyone want a shot? I have 3/4 of a bottle and am more than willing to share :smile2:

Bump:


kgbudge said:


> To coin a phrase: You're joking, right? Like green plants, algae reduce water using energy derived from photosynthesis to yield NADPH, and use this in turn to reduce carbon dioxide via the Calvin cycle to manufacture glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate and, from there, all the other carbon compounds they need. More precisely, in the case of green plants, they reduce bicarbonate. I have read that algae can use carbonate, and simply wondered if you had information that they _prefer_ carbonate to bicarbonate.
> 
> But since you've left the building, I suppose I'm wasting my breath. I'm new here, too, and I feel like I can learn a great deal about the practical aspects of keeping a planted aquarium from the others here. Too bad it hasn't work out for you.



Sorry if I gave an offensive response to your question... It was before I had some vodka in me. 



Based on my knowledge, most plant life (aquatic or terrestrial) prefer carbonate.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> You're joking, right? Plants are comprised of carbon more than any other element. CO2 starving out algae is an indirect effect. CO2 is required by plants but not algae... So, if you provide the plants plenty of CO2, then they are enabled to consume the array of nutrients in the water column much faster than the algae can, thus starving it out. It's a very simple concept.
> This is my final post on here - Use science to your advantage! Aquatic plants do not need much phosphate at all... if your plants are "whining", then there's a 99.99% chance that they are deficient of something that you are not taking into consideration.


Before you go, you should post a pic of your tank.

I would love to see it. Maybe there is something to learn.

But I am guessing that is never going to happen. Maybe you will surprise me??


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Before you go, you should post a pic of your tank.
> 
> I would love to see it. Maybe there is something to learn.



Haha - not yet. The lights on both my freshwater and marine tanks burnt out about the same time late last Summer and for whatever reason, I decided not to do anything about it until right around the start of the new year. All my plants died back to their rhizomes after being without light for 4 months; so, being that it's less than 2 months into the regrowth process, the planted tank still looks less than impressive. It's progressing quickly (anubias growing about 2 new leaves/month), but it's far from ideal yet.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> Haha - not yet. The lights on both my freshwater and marine tanks burnt out about the same time late last Summer and for whatever reason, I decided not to do anything about it until right around the start of the new year. All my plants died back to their rhizomes after being without light for 4 months; so, being that it's less than 2 months into the regrowth process, the planted tank still looks less than impressive. It's progressing quickly (anubias growing about 2 new leaves/month), but it's far from ideal yet.


Yeah, I was pretty sure that would be the case, and exactly what I expected. Pretty easy to predict.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yeah, I was pretty sure that would be the case, and exactly what I expected. Pretty easy to predict.



I don't blame you for thinking that at all. Hell - I wouldn't believe that either; but, that really is the truth. I had bought a couple LED lights off Amazon and both of them burnt out after about 8 months. I was contemplating selling the freshwater setup because I wasn't even the one who bought it to begin with. My former roommate bought it and left it when he moved out. I guess you could say that he was my inspiration for getting into the hobby.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> I don't blame you for thinking that at all. Hell - I wouldn't believe that either; but, that really is the truth.


Didn't you take a picture before the bulbs went out? You could post it now. They don't expire.

But I am guessing not. Most experts on ferts can't figure out how to take a picture of their tank.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Moderators, we need to clean up this thread.


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## kgbudge (Feb 8, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Most experts on ferts can't figure out how to take a picture of their tank.


Heck,I'm still trying to figure that out. I've posted some of my attempts, but they're not really outstanding pictures.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Alright - here's the unimpressive POS in its current state:

https://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/gcmusic22/20190223_2102241.jpg

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Didn't you take a picture before the bulbs went out? You could post it now. They don't expire.
> 
> But I am guessing not. Most experts on ferts can't figure out how to take a picture of their tank.



Smartass. I probably have some old pics buried amongst the 500 pics of my toddler, but it might take some time. BTW - I never claimed to be an "expert".


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> Alright - here's the unimpressive POS in its current state:
> 
> https://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/gcmusic22/20190223_2102241.jpg


The tank looks good.

Low light low tech tank. Probably needs extremely low light and almost no ferts at all.

Looks healthy. Nice work.

But the needs of this tank are completely different from a high tech high light tank. Just saying, until you have kept a high tech tank, it's hard to understand their needs.

P.S. I have a link to my journal in my sig. Years of monkeying around with high tech, and PO4 is a big part of the journey.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Greggz said:


> The tank looks good.
> 
> Low light low tech tank. Probably needs extremely low light and almost no ferts at all.
> 
> ...



Thanks.


True - it doesn't require much to maintain the plants that are in there, but considering that everything except the background plants and the anubias were nothing but rhizomes less than two months ago... 



The lighting, fert, and CO2 is plenty to maintain more demanding plants. Criticize all you want based on what you see, but I guarantee I have a better grasp on the scientific concepts than most people who are currently keeping so-called "high tech" tanks. It's really just a term to feed the ego, IMO. To those who feel like geniuses from keeping a "high tech" tank, delve into the marine world and see if your ego is still as big.

Bump: Now that I've indulged your demands, I am out of here. Peace to all!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Good riddance and may PO4 be with you.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

@sdl1982 , it seems like this thread went off the rails around here. I'd like to bring back a little sanity. There was a lot of science being thrown around. However, the* application *of science is why skilled artisans are highly valued. As such, please forgive us for sidelining your problems with an extensive and worse, possibly irrelevant to your issue, debate about phosphates. In a practical sense, it probably meant very little. Whether you dose a lot or less or follow EI or PPS, the point is, there needs to be nutrients to grow plants. Starving algae is .. well, futile as they need much less than plants to survive. And because algae are closely related to plants, that means you're starving your plants. On the contrary, for reasons not yet scientifically explained in peer reviewed sources, healthy plants fend off algae. And by extension, healthy tanks fend off algae. One cannot have healthy plants if you're starving them. Even if you desired the plants to "out compete" algae, now that algae is in place, you need to restore plants to health and again, you cannot have healthy plants if you're starving them. 

Lost in the debate was probably this very valuable page to help you with your BBA issues: 

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/control-algae-types.html

Look to the section of BBA. Thats probably the current gold standard of most of the things that you can practically do to help yourself against BBA. Interpreting it as it applies to your tank is probably the hard part. 

Fighting BBA is especially tough. many have spent years with this scourge, myself included and many have never found the proverbial magic bullet to solve it. There are just solutions to keep it at bay at best. And it loves to rear its head with any chance it gets. It probably even seasonal because threads in this forum about BBA tend to spike in the warmer months.. who knows. 

This is why some do resort to blasting them with chemicals just to gain a small edge. It's acceptable and not to be discounted if you're really struggling. 

In your case, your setup sounds generally ok and I cannot find too many things to do if I were you. I don't want to discount what you've already been told before the conversation was derailed, so in addition to that I wanted to bring up that, it did strike me that you mentioned that you stop your co2 in between your lighting periods. You also split your lighting periods and possibly put your plants at a disadvantage as they have to gear up to photosynthesize only to lose it and gear up again. Algae is much more adept at doing this sort of stuff. Between the split lighting affecting plants and possibly causing odd co2 consumption, co2 stop start causing odd co2 levels, high light, suspect flow, I'd offer that your BBA situation possibly falls under 'fluctuating co2 levels' cause. During my adventure with BBA, I did and I'd advise you to spend time rethinking seriously about how co2 is being delivered in this tank and even more in your new tank. Same site has a lot of good info on tuning co2 as well. 

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/gas_exchange.html

I'd also let your floaters take over a little more if you can't dim your light. Less light = less pressure on the CO2 demand of your tank. In case there truly was a shortage, lower light intensities would buy you more time to find your solution or may even be your solution. This blurb falls under the 3 growth pillars mentioned here: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/101-growth-plllars.html

Like I said previously and hope it didn't get lost in the noise is that no matter who's arguing, I doubt anyone would discount that site. Spend some time there and it ought to clear your head a lot if you're new to this stuff. But be careful of selective reading and cut and pastes that flew by in the argumentative posts above. Context should never be lost. That's the problem with society today, but that's another rant.

So don't believe me, don't believe any of us, search the past threads about BBA yourself and you'll see that the list provided on the site aligns with most, if not all, of the current accepted solutions out there. 

Or, as @Greggz loves to say it, search the journals and the results don't lie. Even if all the results are argued to be 'anecdotal', wouldn't you want to be a successful "anecdote" too? 

Oh, and one more thing... a true siamese algae eater with the proper attitude will help in its own little way to keep this BBA at bay. Might be too much for your current spec V tank, but definitely something to think about for your bigger tank. Finding one, well, that may be another adventure due to the confusion that surrounds it.


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

ipkiss said:


> @sdl1982 , it seems like this thread went off the rails around here. I'd like to bring back a little sanity. There was a lot of science being thrown around. However, the* application *of science is why skilled artisans are highly valued. As such, please forgive us for sidelining your problems with an extensive and worse, possibly irrelevant to your issue, debate about phosphates. In a practical sense, it probably meant very little. Whether you dose a lot or less or follow EI or PPS, the point is, there needs to be nutrients to grow plants. Starving algae is .. well, futile as they need much less than plants to survive. And because algae are closely related to plants, that means you're starving your plants. On the contrary, for reasons not yet scientifically explained in peer reviewed sources, healthy plants fend off algae. And by extension, healthy tanks fend off algae. One cannot have healthy plants if you're starving them. Even if you desired the plants to "out compete" algae, now that algae is in place, you need to restore plants to health and again, you cannot have healthy plants if you're starving them.
> 
> Lost in the debate was probably this very valuable page to help you with your BBA issues:
> 
> ...


Thanks for all of the information, I will update this thread if I have any progress fighting the BBA i did spot treat some of it last night with H2O2 just to see how that goes.

I tested my PH 1 hour after the lights came on this morning and the PH was 6.68 and my KH should still be around 8 but my PH was most likely abnormally low at that point as my main water pump went out some time in the night but I was able to get it back going this morning. I still had flow in the tank from my little Zoo Med canister during that time though.

Also I should note that I did have the small fluval co2 system running on this tank but it became to much hassle setting it every morning but I had pearling with that system but I don't have any pearling with my current system even when PH+KH calculation shows levels of 45ppm towards the end of the photo period.

I will do a few extra water changes this week just to remove any excess organics as well to see if that helps.


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

Today I did a large water change (4 gallons) and removed most of the BBA that was present as well as trimmed plants and reworked my floating plant setup, and changed around the direction the water outlets were flowing.

New water is pumped in slowly at the same rate it is pumped out so it's not a true 4 gallon water change.

After the water change my readings were
TDS 880PPM (Was 1170)
PH 7.26 (May still have trace amounts of CO2 as its only been off 3 hours)
GH 3
KH 7
Phosphate 0.25

I changed my lighting period from 7a-5p with CO2 on from 6a-4p I will check my CO2 ppm at lights on and lights out tomorrow.
I realize 10 hours may be to long of a photoperiod but I will try it for the time being to try to maintain my daily CO2 levels.
I adjusted my red rooted floaters over 80% of the tank so that should cut down on the intensity of the lighting during that period.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

sdl1982 said:


> Thanks for all of the information, I will update this thread if I have any progress fighting the BBA i did spot treat some of it last night with H2O2 just to see how that goes.
> 
> I tested my PH 1 hour after the lights came on this morning and the PH was 6.68 and my KH should still be around 8 but my PH was most likely abnormally low at that point as my main water pump went out some time in the night but I was able to get it back going this morning. I still had flow in the tank from my little Zoo Med canister during that time though.
> 
> ...


Your tank looks much better now that you cleaned it up. But you still have algae on the walls and elsewhere and its not BBA.
You might consider getting some snails, like a nerite or horned nerites or even ramshorns.

I would ignore the debate on ferts and phosphates causing algae, Tom Barr has that shown that both in excess by themself do not cause algae . You can read his posts on the subject if you google it, here(plantedbrain) or on Barrreport.com.

Lux for light intensity doesnt help us as its too difficult to convert to PAR but the make and model of your light would help us more as we would want to know what your par values are at the level of your plants and its possible someonelse has measured par for the same light.

However it more than likely you have too much light for the biomass of plants you have. You need a lot more faster growing plants and less light. The thing that is often not stressed here enough is before you can establish a 'high tech' tank you must ramp the light up slowly especially before your fast growing plants are well established. Even after that (too much light = algae) for almost everyone.

Also there is no easy way to get rid of BBA, other than scrubbing it off and doing big water changes. Acute H2O2 and excel spot dosing with a bag over the plant/hardscape works, it can be effective, but still you will have dead BBA if it is successful(often purple/red and then white), better to just scrub it off(or get hungry amanos to eat it once dead). Even pros if they get a lot of BBA just start over or at the very least remove hardscape and scrub and trim off leaves. 

I didn't get a clear picture of your CO2 levels but based on your off gassed tap kh you should calculate how much drop in pH you need(see Tom Barr ph/kh/ppm chart) to get 30+ ppm (I think you did this) but its not clear if you were consistently keeping up this level or not, you don't really need that level given your plant stocking but it might help the plants outcompete algae and encourage growth. If you aren't than your only solution is to lower the intensity light(which you should do anyway), by raising the light further away it, adding a diffuser, getting a dimmer etc or lowing the photoperiod. You should probably start with 6 hours if you can't lower the intensity. Often BBA is a result of low or inconsistent CO2/flow or both, espcially when combined with too much light.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> This is my final post on here - Use science to your advantage! Aquatic plants do not need much phosphate at all... if your plants are "whining", then there's a 99.99% chance that they are deficient of something that you are not taking into consideration.


Funny thing about Science is that true Scientists are cautious about running their mouths without observing and looking at data carefully. If you respect the scientific method then you ask questions, collect data, isolate variables, and then look for changes carefully. What I learned how to do above all else in my pHd was to do a proper literature search and review. 

You happen to be focussing on the wrong thing, Tom Barr has shown for years, Ferts and Phosphates in far excess are not by themselves the root cause of Algae. Don't take my word for it, I'm only a non practicing Chemist and haven't passed the 'tank test' either. But you can google Tom Barr and Phosphates which will lead you to Barrreport.com or some of his articles elsewhere. The entire practice of EI dosing has bourne out of this being a proven fact for years.

This tank is not heavily planted or mature yet, so its easy to have Algae issues in any medium or high light while becoming established. I'm not going to debate phosphate levels with anyone here, but high light is far more likely to be the problem, followed by not enough or inconsistent CO2 in that order. Macro and then Micro nutrients would fall a distant 3rd and 4rth and are more likely to affect plant health than whether you have algae or not.

Few would argue that 1000+ ppm TDS (if accurate) is way too high, but that is not what needs attention to get algae under control.

You need more reading, learning, and introspection and a lot less condescending tone acerbic arguments. I've been there and it makes it difficult to learn when you have convinced yourself you already know everything. I don't think the guys around here are all that offended they are a pretty forgiving bunch, but to me you just sound stubborn and ignorant and I've only been here a short time.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

cl3537 said:


> I'm not going to debate phosphate levels with anyone here, but high light is far more likely to be the problem, followed by not enough or inconsistent CO2 in that order. Macro and then Micro nutrients would fall a distant 3rd and 4rth and are more likely to affect plant health than whether you have algae or not.


You said a mouthful there, and well put.

Light/CO2......and might I add maintenance are numbers 1,2,3.

If those aren't right.......ferts are of little consequence.


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Your tank looks much better now that you cleaned it up. But you still have algae on the walls and elsewhere and its not BBA.
> You might consider getting some snails, like a nerite or horned nerites or even ramshorns.
> 
> I would ignore the debate on ferts and phosphates causing algae, Tom Barr has that shown that both in excess by themself do not cause algae . You can read his posts on the subject if you google it, here(plantedbrain) or on Barrreport.com.
> ...


In reference to a few of your questions.

CO2 levels at lights on this morning was 22ppm (6.98PH with 7KH)
I will check the CO2 levels again when I home from work today but just looking at past notes it should be in the 6.7 range

The lighting is the factory Fluval Spec V lighting, I do know they changed the light to a brighter light a year or two ago and I have the brighter one. There is no diming and it is as high as I can put it without modifying it to mount differently at this time. But if needed I would be willing to change that as well. Right now I have a "carpet" of Red Rooted Floaters covering 80-90% of the surface of the tank so it is blocking a lot of the intensity as well as taking the role of fast growing plants.

If you or anyone else has any suggestions on any other fast growing plants that would be suitable for a small and short tank, the water level is 8.5in from the substrate with 2.5inch of substrate I wouldn't mind adding more plant mass either.

I have had some nerites in the past but they always ended up dying a few weeks/months after purchase the most likely cause was due to dosing excel which killed off all of my floating plants at the time as well. But they would remove any of the visible algae as the visible stuff you can see it hard spot algae that has been there for a while but hasn't really been spreading.

I have seen a few questions mentioning the maturity of the tank as well, and it was set up around April 2018.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

sdl1982 said:


> I did check my TDS today.
> Tap = 280ppm
> Prepped water change water = 870ppm (3 grams of equilibrium to 4 gallons and 0.5 ml prime)
> Tank water = 1170ppm (6 days since last water change)





sdl1982 said:


> I am using tap water, which has a KH of 2 and GH of 1 and boosting it with 0.75g of Equilibrium per gallon to bring my KH up, as well as dosed with prime.
> 
> I store the water in a food safe 5 gallon bucket with a powerhead and heater and its usually mixed a week before water changes.
> 
> ...


Your tap water TDS is already high, I'd want to get a water table report from your city.

Your prepped water TDS increase is too high, just adding 3g equilibrium and 0.5g prime even if all of it was solids (it isn't) could only add a max of 233ppm so you must be adding somethingelse? How are you raising kH? How many gallons of prepped water do you make at a time? What is the gH and kH of the prepped water after mixing and immediately before you add it?

Given even your prepped water your tank TDS is way way too high and you have accumulation of salts. If you are topping up with distilled water you should't have so much accumulation, but you do which means the ferts and waste from fish food are accumulating and not enough water changes also ferts are too high.

You don't have have a high light tank(noone measured par includin fluval but it can be assumed its low to Medium light but still too much given distance from the light) or demanding plants, in only 4 gallons, you can cut back to 1/3 of ferts you are using right now and be fine. I would have said cut back on nitrates as your fish food and waste is likely contributing but since you use an all in one just cut the dosage.

My suggestions:

1) Daily 50% water changes, every day for a week to reset your levels. Then at least twice per week.
2) Cut back on everything kH booster(don't need to go to 8, 4 or 5 is fine), gH booster(try going to just 2), ferts(1/3).
3) Cut your photoperiod to 6 hours (even 2 periods of 3 hours may be helpful).
4) Leave your CO2 where it is and just know it will drop the pH more with lower degassed water kH this is okay unless you see fish distress. You shouldn't especially considering the daily water changes.
5) Lets take a careful look at your Tap water report and see what is in it something doesn't add up as has already been raised.

I bet you will solve the algae issues you may even be able to do that with only daily water changes and scrubbing/cleaning and lower light along with, pruning all surfaces with algae, but I think for long term health of flora and fauna you definitely should reduce what you are adding. Try this for a week or two and then you can slowly and systematically start increasing things based on how your tank reacts.

Hope this helps.

In short you are are overtstocked, overfertilized, over everything! if your meter is correct, you really need to restart your tank and take a careful strategic approach to this as 4 gallons is small very unforgiving things we generally ignore like fish waste are significant at such small volumes.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Rubisco mechanisim and energy required with respect to plants and their adaptation to becoming completely submerged,lighting siesta's,fluctuating CO2 level's, sometimes leads us to discover that the enemy is sometimes you/me.
Rubisco mechanisim and how it works,time needed for it to recover or adapt, was a source of enlightenment for me that is seldom mentioned .
Everybody wantin to run their tanks at 10 X while maybe cruising at 5X might bring desired result's albeit some slower growth.
Would take slower growth with little to no algae all day.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

sdl1982 said:


> ...
> I changed my lighting period from 7a-5p with CO2 on from 6a-4p I will check my CO2 ppm at lights on and lights out tomorrow.
> I realize 10 hours may be to long of a photoperiod but I will try it for the time being to try to maintain my daily CO2 levels.
> ...


The BBA issues probably developed from the lighting. You have a very thinly planted tank that can't support a strong and long lighting period. All the co2 in the world will only have a marginal effect on uptake with the volume of plants you have. 

You should reduce your lighting to 4-5 hours, add more plants and keep up with consistent dosing and water changes. Eventually the plant mass will increase and the algae will decrease as it can't compete and then you can gradually increase the light duration. Algae issues start before you see the algae usually from excessive light for a particular setup.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

@Greggz, @ipkiss, @KZB, @cl3537 and maybe a few others:

This may sound crazy, but I have to admit that I feel very relieved that I was wrong. I learned something valuable on here! If you can't tell, I am used to being right the vast majority of the time (as I usually am proven so in hindsight), but that was not the case here. While I didn't have the most accurate or up-to-date information, I pushed the debate too far and must apologize to all of you for sidetracking the thread. My second question was about CO2, so please give me a little credit for at least taking a scientific approach. I appreciate all of you putting up with my stubborness and moving past it to aid sdl1982 in discovering the more probable cause of the problem. I hope their setup flourishes beyond their wildest dreams, and the same to the rest of you as well 

However, I've decided still to remove myself from the forum as I never received even a single reply to the one thread that I started. As far as I am able to see, it's the only damn thread that remains stagnant 

Peace!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Quicksilver2299 said:


> However, I've decided still to remove myself from the forum as I never received even a single reply to the one thread that I started. As far as I am able to see, it's the only damn thread that remains stagnant
> 
> Peace!


Stick around but lose the narcissism. This isn't 'shrimpkeeping.com' so a thread like that most are not interested or don't know the answer. Common sense from the location of the 'green' tells me those aren't eggs but the shrimps recent green meals. If you post better macro photos it would be more conclusive.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

cl3537 said:


> Stick around but lose the narcissism. This isn't 'shrimpkeeping.com' so a thread like that most are not interested or don't know the answer. Common sense from the location of the 'green' tells me those aren't eggs but the shrimps recent green meals. If you post better macro photos it would be more conclusive.



The thread was created in the exclusive shrimp/invert category and has over 80 views. Even with my luck, I'd think that at least one person with some experience would've viewed it by now. 

I thought the same thing about the odd location, which is why I started the thread. The recent meals are visible in a slightly different location than the green spheres, and they are only present in the larger females. One of them is now berried and the green is no longer visible, so I now have the answer. Thanks, anyway.

The camera on my phone is a POS, so unfortunately that's as good as it gets... probably took 10 before I was even able to get that one.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@Quicksilver2299

I agree with @cl3537 about the replies. I think your being too sensitive. It's not unusual in a sub-forum to get no replys or 1 reply per 40 to 100 views. Look at some of the other thread ratios.


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## Quicksilver2299 (Feb 19, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> @*Quicksilver2299*
> 
> I agree with @*cl3537* about the replies. I think your being too sensitive. It's not unusual in a sub-forum to get no replys or 1 reply per 40 to 100 views. Look at some of the other thread ratios.



Fair point, but very few are as bad as 94/0. It's not a very advanced question that I asked, either. For fear of this thread being sidetracked again, please send me a message for any further discussion.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i have written an algae article if anyone is intersted, i have solved most type of algae issues based on the experiments i did for several years, including the plant and nutrients as well. i don't think i could post it here as a link, if anyone want, send me PM


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## sdl1982 (Apr 4, 2018)

Quick update on my CO2 levels I need to play around with my bubble count some it is currently set at 0.98bps

6:00 AM CO2 turns on 
7:00 AM 22 ppm (7KH 6.98PH) Lights ON 
2:30 PM 52.7 ppm (7KH 6.6PH) Manually tuned off CO2 after checking so I don't gas my fish but they don't seem distressed right now 

I will reduce the light period to 5 hours tomorrow and turn on the CO2 1.5 hours prior to lights on to bring up my levels closer to 30ppm at lights on.

Does anyone have any suggestions on plants that would thrive in my tank so that I could increase the plant mass.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

Hello @sdl1982, you got some great advice here in your thread. Your on the right track shortening your photoperiod and adjusting your co2. Another thing to keep in mind is tank and filter cleanliness goes a long way in the defense and prevention of algae. As far as fast growing plants, I would suggest looking up stem plants that fit your style and will grow with your provided conditions. Goodluck and enjoy the ride


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

sdl1982 said:


> Quick update on my CO2 levels I need to play around with my bubble count some it is currently set at 0.98bps
> 
> 6:00 AM CO2 turns on
> 7:00 AM 22 ppm (7KH 6.98PH) Lights ON
> ...


egads. I don't know how accurate is that 52.7ppm, but I'm wary of that rising co2. You're right to think about starting it even earlier but does it get even higher than that at the end? Tomorrow will definitely be a day to watch your fish to see when that co2 levels off. Where your tank levels off at is important as you definitely don't want to have it keep going. 

revisit this page from my original note: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/gas_exchange.html

We don't want you to lose fish in the name of killing BBA! 

Otherwise, I see good advice and good actions so far. As you go forward and try to enact all that you've been told, I just want to add another piece to this. A little patience. Between the first post and all your action, it's been less than a week. Temper expectations and be careful of overcompensating in your corrective endeavors! 

Watch for healthy new growth and that growth's ability to resist the BBA. That's where the war gets won.

good luck and good work!


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## Jafa (Dec 10, 2018)

BBA is caused by fluctuations of CO2.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jafa said:


> BBA is caused by fluctuations of CO2.


Just curious........have you experienced this? Or read it?

I ask because I have read it, but never experienced it. 

Most times BBA is caused by a combination of things. 

Too much light. Too little CO2. Too many dissolved solids (dirty tank). Too little plant mass. Too few ferts, Too much flow. 

Fluctuating CO2? Unlikely. Most times there are much bigger issues causing BBA.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Just curious........have you experienced this? Or read it?
> 
> I ask because I have read it, but never experienced it.
> 
> ...


From personal experience too much light and you can get it much like most algaes.

In my current tank I think I can get BBA if I max my light and shine it on my driftwood for too long I start to see what I think is brown BBA (which I scrub off immediately and vacuum it up.), I also get green carpet algae on the wood at the same time, all it takes is 8 hours or less of max light on my wood.

The prevailing theory seems to be that poor flow or not enough CO2 or poorly distributed CO2 is a potential cause of BBA, perhaps a better way of saying this would be too much light coupled with not enough or incompletely distributed CO2. Fluctuating CO2 is a moving target and pretty hard to prove that it alone is the cause. 

I never heard of too much flow causing BBA though? is that your experience?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> ...
> 
> The prevailing theory seems to be that poor flow or not enough CO2 or poorly distributed CO2 is a potential cause of BBA, perhaps a better way of saying this would be too much light coupled with not enough or incompletely distributed CO2. Fluctuating CO2 is a moving target and pretty hard to prove that it alone is the cause.
> 
> I never heard of too much flow causing BBA though? is that your experience?


Flow, no a common place it grows is on filter returns. If anything in a dirty tank (high organics) heavy flow would deposit more organics in places it can adhere to like (filter returns, wood, rock, slow growing plants.) 

The stronger your light the more the tank has to be kept clean (low organics.) in order to reduce the chance of BBA. This is accomplished through consistent water changes and having a heavy, growing plant mass that can uptake the by-products of decomposing organics.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Here's yer high flow BBA. hanging out on the outflow itself! that's like saturday afternoon martial arts master long beard. And that's the outflow from the reactor!

There were some "mumbo jumbo"  that high flow actually oxygenates the water in that stream and affects the co2 concentration and thus gave rise to the speculation of 'fluctuating co2.' At that time, that was the only location of BBA in the tank -- well, that I knew of


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Flow, no a common place it grows is on filter returns. If anything in a dirty tank (high organics) heavy flow would deposit more organics in places it can adhere to like (filter returns, wood, rock, slow growing plants.)
> 
> The stronger your light the more the tank has to be kept clean (low organics.) in order to reduce the chance of BBA. This is accomplished through consistent water changes and having a heavy, growing plant mass that can uptake the by-products of decomposing organics.


Thanks that makes sense.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

cl3537 said:


> I never heard of too much flow causing BBA though? is that your experience?


Yes I have. BBA seems to love the highest flow spots in the tank. You often see it right where a power head is aimed. And that's been well reported by others over time as well. 

Now don't get me wrong, too little flow is also a problem. But IMO, many have the wrong idea of good flow. I prefer wide gentle flow....plants waving around frantically is not good flow, and can actually increase algae.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yes I have. BBA seems to love the highest flow spots in the tank. You often see it right where a power head is aimed. And that's been well reported by others over time as well.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, too little flow is also a problem. But IMO, many have the wrong idea of good flow. I prefer wide gentle flow....plants waving around frantically is not good flow, and can actually increase algae.


What would be ideal placement for Lily Flow pipes? I haven't really gotten any BBA but I am dealing with Hair Algae a little.
Right now my lily pipe is pointed slightly towards the wall of the tank reducing the current slightly. I didn't do it because of this discussion I did it because the suction cup for the pipe is too low (thanks VIV) and the tubing just makes it twist.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Yes I have. BBA seems to love the highest flow spots in the tank. You often see it right where a power head is aimed. And that's been well reported by others over time as well.
> 
> Now don't get me wrong, too little flow is also a problem. But IMO, many have the wrong idea of good flow. I prefer wide gentle flow....plants waving around frantically is not good flow, and can actually increase algae.


What would be ideal placement for Lily Flow pipes? I haven't really gotten any BBA but I am dealing with Hair Algae a little.
Right now my lily pipe is pointed slightly towards the wall of the tank reducing the current slightly. I didn't do it because of this discussion I did it because the suction cup for the pipe is too low (thanks VIV) and the tubing just makes it twist.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

*BBA is the last unsolved problem of this hobby. *
Nobody knows how to make conditions unlivable for this kind of algae. It is unlike green types which we already know how to deal with. 

*What does not kill BBA:*
Chemical warfare (because it comes back)
Water changes 50% weekly or daily
Water changes 100% weekly or daily
Water changes tap or demineralized
CO2 low, high
CO2 fluctuating, consistent
Fertilizer concentrations low, high
Fertilizer ratios
Flow none, low, high, strong
Light low, high
Light duration short, siesta, long
Organics low, high
Temperature low, high
pH low, high
Filtration
Aeration low, high
O2 low, high
UV light

*What does kill BBA:*
Water changes small
Water change none

I am talking about fully planted aquariums. By killing I mean BBA turning red and disappearing long term. 

I think most often there are either green type algae or BBA because both don’t seem to be growing at the same time. So at first, green types are growing, then later when everything runs smoothly green types disappear, and then much later comes BBA. When we reverse this pattern by purposely screwing something, green types come back and BBA stops growing. 

Why low water changes and no water changes kill BBA? I don’t know.

Edit:
This is not How-to-run planted aquarium guide. This is a list of things that are being repeated again and again as a cure to BBA but in reality they don’t kill it, they only slow it down. As of today, the only things killing BBA are small water changes and no water changes, with healthy plants. This is my observation based also on 15 years of reading posts on planted forums.


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## Northie (Jan 19, 2019)

Honestly this is guesswork on my part but I can tell about tanks where I struggled with BBA and one of them still has trace amounts of it.

*First the tanks without BBA issues for reference*

I'm running two "low tech" roughly 100 liter (25 gallon) tanks that have very low fish load, no co2, moderate to low light, moderately planted and with some spiderwood. Neither suffer from BBA though a small patch initially appeared on one of the driftwoods but it went away as quick as it appeared. Both tanks are massively overfiltered for their load with rather strong circulation: One has a pair of rams with shrimp and the other a dozen or so chili rasboras and kuhli loaches so *very* low fish load. Both run with a weird "kitty litter-peat-regular soil-tropica soil-coarse sand" mix and osmocote cones with no real inert cap. One has persistent diatoms and the other some GSA but neither have any other algae. It's perhaps noteworthy that the soil has probably less than 20% organics content as the peat/soils are just leftovers thrown together. Most of it is inert sand or clay. 

Until this week both tanks got only 6 hours of light from a a cheap chinese 15-18W LED bar. One of the tanks is 60 cm (24") deep cube and the other 40 cm (16") deep so the former specifically does not get much light though I'm replacing one of them with AI prime so we will see if algae issues pop up. 

It might be noteworthy that very few of the plants needed to convert into submersed growth since I reused some existing plants and planted moderately from the get go. They are by no means heavily planted but they have some quick growing weeds or other nutrient hogs (i.e. limnophila sessiliflora and crinum calamistratrum). Judging from your image I'd say we have about same amount of plants compared to tank size.

I suspect the low bioload along with low light (= less demand for nutrients) means that organics are low in the water column. What little ammonia is released is gobbled up by the plants and bacteria. Also since the light is low any potential algae growth is also slow so regular maintenance helps prevent outbreaks. I also suspect the GSA will disappear now that I started dosing phosphates. I actually noticed you have some GSA in glass as well which in my experience is a sign of low phosphates or immature tank.

*Then the tanks with BBA issues*

I've two 240-liter (~63 gallon) Juwel Rios which both got massive BBA issues. Both originally had only a single 46W Arcadia Stretch LED which is actually quite low light for such a long tank. I also ran CO2 to both tanks so as to boost the growth and plant health a bit. Both tanks were very lightly planted from the start as back then I had no idea about what plants I wanted to get so I only got few pots at a time, and even those kept melting and polluting the water mostly because I didn't dose macros at all or - much anything actually. 

The BBA appeared when I introduced large spiderwoods into one of the tanks and let it run a few weeks without any water changes. Plants were in relatively poor condition so that probably acted as one of the triggers but it definitely appeared on driftwood first. Once it settled in and started spreading to plants it was damn difficult to get rid off of for good. I ended up restarting one of the tanks but since I used some of the old plants the BBA was soon back.

I spent months fighting with the damn thing, removing it manually, nuking with H2O2, trying excel. Each time it seemed to disappear it was back the moment I let the tanks go more than a week without constant maintenance. 

Compared to other tanks these have much larger fish load even when taking into account larger water volume - and originally had much less plants. 

*Potential fixes*

I slowly managed to increase the healthy plant mass which seemed to have a positive effect. I cranked up the CO2 a *lot* and started mixing my own ferts which have helped with plant growth and this in turn seems to have helped to stop new BBA outbreaks. I didn't get a pH controller personally. Instead of that I aimed for stable CO2 through entire light cycle so my CO2 starts two hours before lights and ends one hour after. I'm not using CO2 checker or anything.

For dosing I'm using modified PMDD with twice as much KH2PO4 as in the formula but since no new BBA is appearing and plants look healthier than ever I doubt phosphates are your issue either. The BBA is not disappearing on its own though. No new BBA shows up but existing BBA is sort of hanging around and in few occasions even spreading on old dying leaves. I did a deep dive and culled all remaining bba-infected leaves and so far no new BBA outbreaks.

For driftwood BBA I'm using a simple choke-out method. I wrap a piece of moss around a branch with traces of BBA and the BBA soon either dies out or gets tangled with the moss in which case it easy to remove. Once the moss is large enough to engulf the area no new BBA appears.

These have helped with my battle of BBA so maybe they will be useful for you, too. It seems BBA is prone to appearing on driftwoods and dying leaves so my guess is that it really likes decaying stuff. It also likes flow - a lot! I once had a 180 liter tank where BBA was covering the Eheim Powerline outflow and concentrated on spots where the flow was strongest.


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## Northie (Jan 19, 2019)

Edward said:


> *What does kill BBA:*
> Water changes low
> Water change none
> 
> ...



I wish. My mom's tank is quintessential "water changes are for wussies" tank and it has plenty of BBA and plants. 



However, in this instance I suspect it's her tendency to overfeed and the poor health of plants that is contributing to the problem. Inert sand, lights on 12+ hours a day, and no fertilizing at all are not a terribly good combination. BBA covers dying anubias leaves, filter, and even larger grains of sand. I set her tank on a timer last visit and filled the substrate with osmocote and JBL 7-balls since she doesn't want to dose dry or liquid ferts. Now if only I got her to feed the fish sparingly instead of dumping a spoonful of flakes to a small group of neon tetras. 
I mean naturally she can run the tank as she wishes but then she complains to me that her plants are dying and algae is everywhere!









I reiterate my stance that BBA always seems to initially appear and flourish on spots which are prone to decay such as dying plant leaves, driftwood and leftover food. Once it's around it's content to consume any nutrients and is no longer limited to those spots.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I haven't had BBA in years. During EI dosing days with high CO2, it was rampant. Nothing I did ever solved it permanently; all solutions were temporary. Glut or salts dosed directly on top of it would kill it but it would grow back quickly. Manual removal the same. The one thing that did prevent it from growing at all: eliminating chronic -Zn and thus improving plant health. It was never related to CO2 or water flow. If you have BBA, look at the health of your plants first. More than likely, there are nutrient disorders underlying BBA.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

In addition to no water changes and watching my Zn levels I found playing Disco music for at least 5 hours a day makes the BBA shrivel up and die. :grin2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> *What does not kill BBA:*
> Chemical warfare (because it comes back)
> Water changes 50% weekly or daily
> Water changes 100% weekly or daily
> ...


Edward I agree the methods above will not "Kill" BBA. 

But the wrong combination of the above can create conditions that bring it on.

In a very general sense, the right combination of above will make for happy plants. BBA hates healthy happy plants. The wrong combination of above will make for weak dying plants. Weak dying plants are a magnet for BBA.

And I don't doubt "low" or "no" water changes have killed BBA for you in your tank. But that would be specifically related to your dosing method and tank philosophy, which is not typical on this board. IMO, for most here "low" or "no" water changes will make the problem significantly worse.

I would lean toward "large" water changes, removing dissolved organics, physical removal of BBA (get the sleeves wet!), resetting the tank and seeking a better balance of light/CO2/Ferts/maintenance. In many cases, just turning down the lights and cleaning the tank stops it from spreading. 

It's not difficult to avoid BBA in a high tech high light EI type tank. I haven't had any to speak of in a very long time. Except when I suddenly increased flow. It showed up right where the flow was aimed. Hadn't seen it in ages, so it really caught my eye. Reduced flow and it was gone.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

My post above is not How-to-run planted aquarium guide. 

It is a list of things that are being repeated again and again as a cure to BBA but in reality they don’t kill it, they only slow it down. As of today, the only things killing BBA are small water changes and no water changes, with healthy plants. This is my observation based also on 15 years of reading posts on planted forums.


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## moogoo (Dec 7, 2007)

I had BBA and spyrogira in my 10 gal. mostly came about cause my CO2 cylinder was running low and I had inconsistent CO2 levels. Add to that some laziness and lack of water changes and they appeared. Getting a full CO2 tank and consistent CO2 killed off my BBA fairly quickly. It was red within 2-3 days and gone a week later. Spyrogira, I think, is much more difficult to deal with. 

In the end, balance is key. If you get any significant amount of any algae, it's cause something is out of balance. Check the main culprits (CO2, water changes, dirty filter, overfeeding) and adjust til everyone's happy.

edit: forgot to add one of the more obvious culprits ... lighting .. either photoperiod or intensity or both!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> ...the only things killing BBA are small water changes and no water changes, with healthy plants. This is my observation based also on 15 years of reading posts on planted forums.


The problem with your statement is that your saying the only way to have a BBA free tank is to perform little to no water changes and have healthy plants. It's too confining. It requires someone to stuff their tank full of plants whether they want it that way or not. What about the tanks that have minimal plant load? Based on your statement your saying these tanks once BBA enters you can't kill it or get rid of it unless you stuff the tank with plants, which simply is not true,

I can induce BBA by performing smaller water changes and increasing my light duration and then I could get rid of it by reversing this. So your statement just doesn't work for me. 

Your "No water change" method sends the wrong message as most won't have a "fully planted tank" and/or it's not a solution anyway since it's too confining to that type of setup and a new hobbyist won't really understand that. Anyone can have a no water change setup if you set your parameters narrow enough.


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## Fallon (Oct 17, 2018)

Edward said:


> My post above is not How-to-run planted aquarium guide.
> 
> 
> 
> It is a list of things that are being repeated again and again as a cure to BBA but in reality they don’t kill it, they only slow it down. As of today, the only things killing BBA are small water changes and no water changes, with healthy plants. This is my observation based also on 15 years of reading posts on planted forums.


Thanks for the info I'll give is a roll

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

moogoo said:


> Getting a full CO2 tank and consistent CO2 killed off my BBA fairly quickly. It was red within 2-3 days and gone a week later.


 Congratulation! However, it was not CO2 that killed it. 
BBA love CO2 and grows faster, larger and stronger with CO2 injection. 


> edit: forgot to add one of the more obvious culprits ... lighting .. either photoperiod or intensity or both!


BBA doesn’t care about photoperiod or intensity, it grows under either lighting. 
Again, we don’t know what killed it.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> It is a list of things that are being repeated again and again as a cure to BBA but in reality they don’t kill it, they only slow it down.


Nothing kills it except concentrated spot dosing H2O2 or Excel(maybe). Scrubbing and Manual Removal is best.

I have not seen any parameter, method, or set of circumstances that can be *proven* to kill it. Anecdotal report(s) are not good enough for proof.

Healthy plants, keeping organic waste low, balanced nutrients, and avoiding excessive light prevents it from growing/spreading.

The rest seems like a red herring just like much of the 'superstitions' about this hobby they just confuse and make new hobbyists waste time and money chasing things that might have worked for someone but don't work for them.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> Congratulation! However, it was not CO2 that killed it.
> BBA love CO2 and grows faster, larger and stronger with CO2 injection.
> BBA doesn’t care about photoperiod or intensity, it grows under either lighting.
> Again, we don’t know what killed it.


In my experience, too little CO2, not too much, is more likely to cause BBA. Basically unhappy plants whose needs are not being met. 

Many times I have seen a high tech high light planted tank run out of CO2, and BBA rears it's head. Provide CO2, and it recedes.

And in my experience and observations, too much light intensity and duration is the major cause of BBA (in relation to plant mass, type, dosing). That and dirty tank conditions. I've seen the combination here many times. Turn down the light, clean up the tank, and things get better fast. 

And following up on an earlier post, IME not changing water is probably the worst thing one can do. BBA hates water changes. My experience is the more larger water changes the better. 

But as usual, interesting to hear others experience. Just doesn't match up at all to what I have seen/experienced.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)




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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Greggz said:


> In my experience, too little CO2, not too much, is more likely to cause BBA. Basically unhappy plants whose needs are not being met.
> 
> Many times I have seen a high tech high light *planted tank run out of CO2, and BBA rears it's head. Provide CO2, and it recedes*.
> 
> ...


Heck, BBA blooms are how I used to tell my tank needed refilling! Look, BBA, tank must've run out, D'oh!
Get CO2 going again, BBA goes away. All other variables constant as far as I could tell


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

KayakJimW said:


> Heck, BBA blooms are how I used to tell my tank needed refilling! Look, BBA, tank must've run out, D'oh!
> Get CO2 going again, BBA goes away. All other variables constant as far as I could tell


 What killed the BBA?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> What killed the BBA?


I'm going to go out on a limb and say it wasn't skipping water changes??:grin2:

Sorry Edward, you lobbed that softball right over the middle of the plate.:wink2:

Personally I wouldn't try to kill BBA, rather manually remove it. Get rid of every bit you can. Basically take charge of the situation. It's the first step to recovery.

If anyone wants to see someone fight a really good battle against BBA, here is a link. It was brought on mainly by skipping water changes and tank neglect. It's an amazing recovery and should give others hope............................

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1179321-75g-dutch-weed-farm-8.html#post11107499


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Still nobody knows what kills BBA.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Congratulation! However, it was not CO2 that killed it.
> BBA love CO2 and grows faster, larger and stronger with CO2 injection.
> BBA doesn’t care about photoperiod or intensity, it grows under either lighting.
> Again, we don’t know what killed it.


Yes and no. You seem to make statements without taking other variables into account. I think most of us here know that CO2 in itself is not an Algacide/BBA killer. So yes if you put CO2 into a tank with just BBA the BBA will enjoy it. But when does that happen? When you combine it with plants that have the other nutrients they need you increase uptake and create a less habitable environment for it. 

Your statement actually contradicts your earlier statement that a tank full of plants and no water changes will kill BBA. In the same way CO2 in itself won't kill BBA, neither will a tank of plants that don't have what they need to increase uptake.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

I have let a tank go without water changes before. Basically total neglect. (Not proud of it). Oh boy the tank was covered with Bba. Totally agree with @Greggz, water changes and good maintenance and healthy plant growth the best defense against bba. 

I have never seen bba just recede and disappear. It always took manual removal and spot treating. Bba always showed up when I slacked off on maintenance. I am not gonna pursue the cause of bba. Rather focus i trying to grow healthy plants


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

KZB said:


> I have let a tank go without water changes before. Basically total neglect. (Not proud of it). Oh boy the tank was covered with Bba.


 Neglect. Of course it collapsed. 

That’s not what I was talking about.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

"What does kill BBA:
Water changes small
Water change none" = neglect to me, but that's just me

You win!!!, I don't want to argue.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> Neglect. Of course it collapsed.
> 
> That’s not what I was talking about.


Edward what exactly are you talking about??


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Fallon said:


> Thanks for the info I'll give it a roll


 Nobody knows why BBA starts and why stops. Sometimes this works and sometimes something else. What is real, are posts about BBA problems and they are quite common. Often water changes don’t fix it. 

What sometimes helps is small water changes rather than large. But it involves more work than the [Overdose - Flush - Pull algae - Repeat] routine. 

Let’s say we try 10% weekly water changes. 
Before we start, we do several massive water changes to get rid of previous fertilizers. Then we follow these parameters:

Ca
Ca 20 - 30 ppm, CaSO4 if lower, or higher if tap.

Mg
Mg > 0, ideal 5 ppm, < 10 ppm, MgSO4 if lower, or higher if tap.

TDS
TDS can be decreasing, but not increasing. If increasing use demineralized water for water changes.

NO3
NO3 > 0, ideal 10 ppm, < 15 ppm, KNO3 if lower. If higher, too many fish, not enough plants, plants not growing.

PO4
PO4 > 0, < 2 ppm, KH2PO4 if lower.

K
K per new added water at water change, 20 ppm, K2SO4, or 30 ppm if hard tap water.

TE
Trace element fertilizer daily 0.01 ppm Fe(TE) for low light, or 0.025 ppm Fe(TE) for medium and high light.

KH
dKH 0 - 3, baking soda if lower, or higher if tap. Should not be increasing, cannot have KH leaching substrate or rocks.

CO2
Adequate CO2 to light intensity, consistent is better than high.

Plants
If you can see substrate there is not enough plants.

Light
Intensity high enough to reach substrate, not too long photoperiod.

O2
Good aeration.

Algae crew
Snails are necessary to clean plant and other surfaces, and to remove periphyton.

Filtration
Clean filters whenever dirty.

Parameters should be checked semi-monthly and corrected when necessary.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> Let’s say we try 10% weekly water changes.
> Before we start, we do several massive water changes to get rid of previous fertilizers. Then we follow these parameters:


Edward the numbers you posted interest me.

Can you point me to a tank here that is successful with those numbers? I would like to see what can be done at those levels, maybe something to learn. I've been looking but can't find one.

What I do see here is many folks who start with those numbers, fail to grow plants, then start dosing more and succeed. 

Are these the numbers that you use? If so, do you have a current picture of your tank? If not, why not? 

Like I said, I really would like to learn more, but I just can't find anyone here successful with those numbers. Seeing some results would go a long way to giving the approach more thought.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

AGA Aquascaping Contest









AGA Aquascaping Contest Top Ten









AGA Aquascaping Contest









AGA Aquascaping Contest









AGA Aquascaping Contest









You never stop bitching and harassing? Have you had a bad childhood or something?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> You never stop bitching and harassing? Have you had a bad childhood or something?


Edward I have seen many of those types of tanks. They are beautiful. Works of art.

Mostly low light easy to grow plants I very much understand their methods. 

I meant more of a mixed species with fast growing showy stems. More Dutch style if you will. More like you see often here.

And I am sincere in my interest. I have never seen a successful one like I described using PPS or PMDD, but would really like to learn more if they exist. I am all for advancing methods that work. Truly I am trying to learn.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

I use PPS-Pro dry ferts from NilocG in my 180 gallon tank. I dose higher than the recommended amount. Recommended amount is 18 ml of each mix every other day. I dose 30 ml of each every other day. Two reasons for the increase. One is my continuous drip water change which replaces 48 gallons of water a day so approx half my water is changed between doses. The other reason is that it seems to be the amount that keeps my plants happy.  I just posted current shots on my tank journal. I recently removed a jungle of plants out of it. 

As far as BBA is concerned, I first experienced it when I ran out of CO2. It has receded a lot, but it is still there. Lurking... Waiting...


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

AguaScape said:


> I use PPS-Pro dry ferts from NilocG in my 180 gallon tank. I dose higher than the recommended amount. Recommended amount is 18 ml of each mix every other day. I dose 30 ml of each every other day. Two reasons for the increase. One is my continuous drip water change which replaces 48 gallons of water a day so approx half my water is changed between doses. The other reason is that it seems to be the amount that keeps my plants happy.  I just posted current shots on my tank journal. I recently removed a jungle of plants out of it.
> 
> As far as BBA is concerned, I first experienced it when I ran out of CO2. It has receded a lot, but it is still there. Lurking... Waiting...


Yes I am following your journal. Very interesting with the drip water change. I'm not even sure how to compare that to anything else. 

My guess is that your accumulation happens very quickly. It should be much like EI, where your water column levels are much higher than you are dosing after accumulation. Would be interesting to figure out the math on that set up. 

Tank is coming along nicely, and I am enjoying your thread. Do you test often to see what the water column values are?

And yes, running out of CO2 can have an immediate effect. But it looks like you have got it back under control......nice work.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Still nobody knows what kills BBA.


At the end of the day we don't really need to kill BBA. We need to remove and create conditions that it won't grow in. Many of the variables you listed previously could and does accomplish this depending on the setup.
@Edward quote:
"What does not kill BBA:
Chemical warfare (because it comes back)
Water changes 50% weekly or daily
Water changes 100% weekly or daily
Water changes tap or demineralized
CO2 low, high
CO2 fluctuating, consistent
Fertilizer concentrations low, high
Fertilizer ratios
Flow none, low, high, strong
Light low, high
Light duration short, siesta, long
Organics low, high
Temperature low, high
pH low, high
Filtration
Aeration low, high
O2 low, high
UV light"


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Asteroid said:


> At the end of the day we don't really need to kill BBA.


 Right, we need to cherish it.


AguaScape said:


> I use PPS-Pro dry ferts from NilocG in my 180 gallon tank. I dose higher than the recommended amount. Recommended amount is 18 ml of each mix every other day. I dose 30 ml of each every other day. Two reasons for the increase. One is my continuous drip water change which replaces 48 gallons of water a day so approx half my water is changed between doses. The other reason is that it seems to be the amount that keeps my plants happy.  I just posted current shots on my tank journal. I recently removed a jungle of plants out of it.


 Where does it say every other day? It is wrong and I am sorry to hear that. But you figured it out. The recommended daily dose is 1 ml / 10 gallon or 40 L for macros and half for micros. For 180 gallon aquarium 18 ml a day macros and 9 ml a day micros.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> Where does it say every other day? It is wrong and I am sorry to hear that. But you figured it out. The recommended daily dose is 1 ml / 10 gallon or 40 L for macros and half for micros. For 180 gallon aquarium 18 ml a day macros and 9 ml a day micros.


You are correct. It does not say every other day. That was the initial reasoning behind the increased dose. 160 gallon water column. A touch less than a double dose every other day. It does not recommend half dose for micros. Instructions per NilocG site are here: Dose both the Micros and the Macros at a rate of 1ml per 10gallons seven days a week.. I knew there was another reason for the increased dose. Now I am going to try increasing it some more to compensate for the wash out and see how things react.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Also the TE amount is wrong.


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## AguaScape (Oct 28, 2018)

Edward said:


> Also the TE amount is wrong.


Right and Wrong are relative. It is really about what works for each situation. My situation is particularly unique as I use a continuous water change. Still dialing in my ferts. It appears that I am using an older version of PPS-Pro as recommended by NilocG which uses much higher levels of TE. I will try dialing back the micros and increasing the macros some and see how things react.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Right, we need to cherish it.


You constantly take things out of context and you know it. All your doing is going the other way to "stir the pot"


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

AquaScape

In 2004, I set 40 g / 500 ml. Later, the product changed percentage so I had to change the amount to 28.6 g / 500 ml in order to keep the same concentration. This is important when talking or recommending ml, ppm and dosage. Solution #2 micros 1 ml / 10 gallon or 40 L => 0.1 ppm Fe(TE).


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

I'm fighting bba right now and everything is pointing to a "dirty" tank.

I didnt think I had a dirty tank until I finally got brave enough to vacuum near my baby tears and amazonia aquasoil. You just cant go crazy with this setup on the vacuum but you can get pretty close to the substrate.

Then I realized I was over feeding my fish blood worms. Just imagine what the uneaten ones do in a flow deadzone.... which is exactly where my bba propagates.

Finally, I did a deep clean of my eheim pro 4 canister filter and dumped the water in the bottom section. It was absolutely digusting!.

So yeah, check your feeding, check for dead spots and subtrate gunk, and definitely check your entire filter.

As for ferts and parameters - they were always normal except a few week period of high iron. When I started dosing EI it seemed to get rid of the bba for the first week, but they came back harder later.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

The dirtier the tank the less wiggle room you have with lights and plant mass in any effort to control BBA and for that matter most if not all alga. Most make the mistake of starting a tank with a full duration of lighting even without plant growth or a mature bio-filter being present and then they correct from there. 

Once you see the alga it's requirements are similar to the plants, it's preventing the spores from developing in the first place that's the key. You don't want to awaken the sleeping giant.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

It is great to hear positive stories but we still don’t know what it is that kills BBA. If we allowed sharing more experiences rather than opposing observations that are not popular at the moment, we actually might get somewhere. 

Truth is there are posts about BBA growing when CO2 runs out but also when CO2 injection is increased. We can see posts about having BBA after lowering water changes but also with enormous water changes.There are situations where BBA doesn’t grow despite minimal water change rates but grows when all of the today’s believed remedies are met. 

The stage of today’s knowledge of handling BBA is as the one causing car accidents, “Speed kills slow down”. Well, if speed kills than we would not have airplanes.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> ...
> 
> The stage of today’s knowledge of handling BBA is as the one causing car accidents, “Speed kills slow down”. Well, if speed kills than we would not have airplanes.


And if football causes brain injuries we wouldn't have the super bowl and if candy causes cavities we wouldn't have Skittles. Come on, stop talking in single variables that are meaningless.


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## Pocho (Dec 3, 2018)

Edward said:


> It is great to hear positive stories but we still don’t know what it is that kills BBA. If we allowed sharing more experiences rather than opposing observations that are not popular at the moment, we actually might get somewhere.
> 
> Truth is there are posts about BBA growing when CO2 runs out but also when CO2 injection is increased. We can see posts about having BBA after lowering water changes but also with enormous water changes.There are situations where BBA doesn’t grow despite minimal water change rates but grows when all of the today’s believed remedies are met.
> 
> The stage of today’s knowledge of handling BBA is as the one causing car accidents, “Speed kills slow down”. Well, if speed kills than we would not have airplanes.



geez, you'd think bba has been around long enough for someone to find a chemical that instantly kills it but safe enough for our pets/plants, put a patent on the product and make a killing and retire to the easy life. Today most of us if not all look for instant gratification


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> It is great to hear positive stories but we still don’t know what it is that kills BBA. If we allowed sharing more experiences rather than opposing observations that are not popular at the moment, we actually might get somewhere.
> 
> Truth is there are posts about BBA growing when CO2 runs out but also when CO2 injection is increased. We can see posts about having BBA after lowering water changes but also with enormous water changes.There are situations where BBA doesn’t grow despite minimal water change rates but grows when all of the today’s believed remedies are met.
> 
> The stage of today’s knowledge of handling BBA is as the one causing car accidents, “Speed kills slow down”. Well, if speed kills than we would not have airplanes.


The majority of the aquarium hobby and most LFS run on 'anecdotal reports', 'superstitions' and poorly researched 'knowledge'.
100 anecdotal reports are not as good as one controlled study. Thankfully that is not the "group think" on these forums, the general principals preached here are mostly well supported by controlled studies or research papers.

I don't think how pretty your tank pictures are, gives you more authority or a license to be an expert on BBA or dosing or the reverse invalidates your opinion. However I am much more apt to trust someone who controls their aquarium variables and can demonstrate it over someone who seems to be mostly promoting their fertilizer mix and can't prove they have even grown any plants.

From 'general knowledge', BBA is an Algae and while tougher to get rid of than most algae, lowering organic waste and light and creating conditions allowing plants to outcompete seems to be the most sensible course and slows it down. Experts agree water changes are helpful in reducing all form of Algae especially after treatment or manual removal. That makes total sense as spores/small pieces are in the water column and should be removed.

Once it is in the tank its very hard to get rid of we all know that, so I find very little value in fixating on the outlier case where keeping a dirty tank with no water changes causes it to go away. The problem with outlier cases is they are rarely from someone who keeps a controlled tank and isolating the true cause of BBA removal will be too difficult to be repeatable in other people's tanks.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Silicates cause algae.
Heating cables stop algae.
Grounding wire make plants grow better.
Plants need vitamins.
Low CO2 is always the problem.
Under gravel filtration is the key to plant success.
Phosphates cause algae.
Definite light spectrums cause algae.
CO2 mist kills algae.
K must be lower than Mg.
NH4 cause algae.

The hobby wouldn’t go through these if parroting wasn’t easier than solving.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Silicates cause algae.
> Heating cables stop algae.
> Grounding wire make plants grow better.
> Plants need vitamins.
> ...


Yes those are the 'supersitions' I was talking about that I see on other forums. Thankfully most people on this forum support their opinion and try to tailor it to the tank situation rather than just blindly parroting a one size fits all advice.

Its far from perfect advice here, several people told me they often see BBA attached to outflow pipes and therefore high flow causes BBA. Well I am pretty assured high flow of distilled water will do nothing. Its more likely excess organics accumulated by high flow causes BBA not the flow itself. 

I think the next level for this forum should be requiring those seeking help to fill out a standard form with all their tank variables which autoposts into a thread before seeking answers. We generally have to ask the same questions of everyone over and over again and bad advice is often a result of not seeing the whole picture.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Finally something constructive, thank you.


cl3537 said:


> Its far from perfect advice here, several people told me they often see BBA attached to outflow pipes and therefore high flow causes BBA. Well I am pretty assured high flow of distilled water will do nothing. Its more likely excess organics accumulated by high flow causes BBA not the flow itself.


 Good, then I have two questions. 

If it is because of organics, then why BBA stops growing when water changes are decreased and organics are increased. (I hope I don’t have to include “not always and IMHO only” and other redundant text.)

The example with distilled water is good, but when two same containers are set. One with the distilled water and the other with the original organics accumulated aquarium water then none will grow BBA on outflow pipes even if live BBA is put in. Why is it?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> Finally something constructive, thank you.
> Good, then I have two questions.





> If it is because of organics, then why BBA stops growing when water changes are decreased and organics are increased.


First off, excess organics is an assumption by me, its a more repeatable one than your singular anecdotal report, but direct causation has not been proven or isolated to my knowledge.

Your question: You haven't proven that BBA does stop growing if you stop water changes and increase organics, can you prove it repeatedly?

I haven't studied BBA but it is clear it isn't just organics and if plant health improves BBA tends to slow down.

So in this one tank did plant growth improve at the same time BBA receded?



> The example with distilled water is good, but when two same containers are set. One with the distilled water and the other with the original organics accumulated aquarium water then none will grow BBA on outflow pipes even if live BBA is put in. Why is it?


You are telling me you soaked isolated BBA in distilled water, rinsed it well in Distilled water, and then placed it in a clean container with a sterilized nutrient free filter of just distilled water and it grew? If that was the case BBA only needs light and atmospheric CO2 to grow. 

Did you do that experiment carefully and isolate those variables? How long a time period did you record the appearance of the BBA? How did you measure growth? How long did it continue to grow under those conditions? Do you have photos to support this claim? How carefully did you clean the tank and filter before putting BBA in it?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> You are telling me you soaked isolated BBA in distilled water, rinsed it well in Distilled water, and then placed it in a container of just distilled water and it grew? If that was the case BBA only needs light and atmospheric CO2 to grow. Did you do that experiment carefully and isolate those variables? How long a time period did you record the appearance of the BBA? How did you measure growth? How long did it continue to grow under those conditions? Do you have photos to support this claim?


cl3537,
the example with distilled water is good. However when two same containers are set, one with distilled water and the other with the original aquarium water and accumulated organics, none will grow BBA on outflow pipes. Even, if live BBA is put in.


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

From my anecdotal experience, my bba started disappearing (and other algaes) after I cleaned my tank, did a huge water change, fully empty and rinsed my filter. Then I made sure my phosphate wasn't hanging around 0 too long. Seems like my amazonia substrate kept absorbing it causing swings in the level. I had to throw pinches of phosphourous into my tank AT LEAST once a day to prevent the swings. It also seems like keeping nitrates at or slightly above 20 is safer than 5-10.

Finally, I reduced my light to 40-50 par @ 6 hours instead of 60-70 par @ 8 hours. This all came together for a nice reset after two weeks. Now to not mess it up going forward and after raising the light...

From my experience, you start the see the bba fade to a lighter color within a day or two of doing the above, but they take much longer to disappear.


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

I can't edit my above post so:

Also of note is to shake the detritus off your plants before you vacuum, and vacuum near the bottom even if you can't suck up the substrate.

So to repeat, if you are having algae issues:
*Balance ferts to 20 nitrate/1 phosphate and measure twice a day to make sure it's correct no matter your dosing method
*Clean your tank, plants and filter more than you think you should
*Change your water more than you think you should and suck at that detritus while you're at it
*Keep your light lower than you think it should if you have a medium or high one
*Don't overfeed fish.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> cl3537,
> the example with distilled water is good. However when two same containers are set, one with distilled water and the other with the original aquarium water and accumulated organics, none will grow BBA on outflow pipes. Even, if live BBA is put in.


Accumulated Organics are everywhere: on plants, in substrate, in your filter, in your pipes, stuck to glass, its much more complicated than just moving water. I know you haven't done these(any?) controlled experiments and you are only interested in disparaging the principals and theories that are often repeated here. I'm just not interested in playing your game, in this thread you have a lot of opinions and very little support or proof for them.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I think we need to be a little careful in the area of philosophy. NO ONE can prove anything here on TPT. The Internet is replete with credulity issues and this forum is not immune to this. Pictures of tanks mean nothing unless a willing viewer wants to believe that the pictures reflect the results of an experiment or regimen. The only option, here on TPT, is to be interested enough in trying someone's claim of success in the hope that 1) it's true and 2) that it might work in our unique tank setup. Both of these assumptions require a big leap of faith.


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## KZB (Jan 3, 2018)

I like the leap of faith @Deanna

Like @Greggz says, read others journals with the same tank goals you are trying to reach and copy what they are doing. It may work just the way you want it to, if not it'll definitely get you close. Than do your fine tuning, that works for your own unique set up. 

Ps dont follow what I do, I am a train wreck waiting to happen lol


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

cl3537 said:


> … you are only interested in disparaging the principals and theories that are often repeated here. I'm just not interested in playing your game, in this thread you have a lot of opinions and very little support or proof for them.


 I don’t have to prove anything to you, go back to parroting.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Edward said:


> I don’t have to prove anything to you, go back to parroting.


This just confirms what I wrote, your anecdotes on BBA are based on a flimsy foundation and when probed for detail you have nothing to say.

An anecdotal report on BBA even an outlier should not be dismissed outright, but its usually a call for further research and study and asking a lot of questions.

If you can repeat an experiment where no water changes or maintenance is performed and BBA goes away repeatedly I'd be ready to read it and study why.

However if you haven't done that you are just providing misleading information to less experienced posters, where doing the opposite is much more likely to help them.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

For those repeating the same demand over and over to post pictures as some kind of ultimate proof, here is one for you. Two comments by two experts, yet contradicting on simple issue. And most importantly, these comments are not done by biased people who have decided before seeing it. 



> AWARDS AND JUDGE COMMENTS
> 
> Nice work of art. The colors used throughout are very well done. The root work on the right feel heavy and contrived. Well done!
> Jeff Miotke
> ...


AGA Aquascaping Contest


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> I'm just not interested in playing your game, in this thread you have a lot of opinions and very little support or proof for them.


Yes, that's exactly what it is a game. Someone has too much time on their hands and wants to get reactions from people.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Edward said:


> Still nobody knows what kills BBA.


i have covered it on how to stop and prevent BBA in my Article, if it already exist, it wont just vanish but in the future it can be prevented.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

happi said:


> i have covered it on how to stop and prevent BBA in my Article, if it already exist, it wont just vanish but in the future it can be prevented.


Please link to your article.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

cl3537 said:


> Please link to your article.


its a facebook group page, i post stuff over there 'Aquatic Plant Science Group'


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> Yes those are the 'supersitions' I was talking about that I see on other forums. Thankfully most people on this forum support their opinion and try to tailor it to the tank situation rather than just blindly parroting a one size fits all advice.
> 
> Its far from perfect advice here, several people told me they often see BBA attached to outflow pipes and therefore high flow causes BBA. Well I am pretty assured high flow of distilled water will do nothing. Its more likely excess organics accumulated by high flow causes BBA not the flow itself.


I'd be one of those who have seen at least some relationship between BBA and flow with an additional variable - light. e.g., I have a hillstream tank that's kept very, very clean. Inert substrate, lightly stocked, very light feeding, very little decaying plant matter, vacuumed regularly, filter regularly cleaned, 2 bags of Purigen in the filter. It's not distilled water but short of something like an all glass Discus tank with daily water changes it's far toward that end of the spectrum. Lots of flow. 

If I crank the light in that tank I can be virtually certain to trigger BBA growth on some tall plants right under the light that are in the main stream of flow. It's repeatable and I can control it (largely at least) by reducing light. i.e., Clean water + lots of light + lots of flow = BBA. Same water + lower light + same flow = no BBA. Similar with some other tanks. The only place that I ever see BBA in any of my tanks is where there is flow AND lots of light. I can grow plenty of other funky stuff in other circumstances but don't think that I've ever seen BBA in any of my tanks where both are not present. As a counter example, I have an excess guppy tank that's a complete mess where I'd expect organics are very, very high. Rarely cleaned. Tons of decaying plant matter. Low light in that case though. Never any BBA. It does grow other disgusting slime algae in the flow from the HOB filter but never BBA. 

So, based on my own experience I have to think that light + flow has more to do with it than organics. As you say though, I don't expect that absolutely applies across the board in all circumstances.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@Mike A.

What you describe in the two tanks you have is completely reasonable. Each tank has a threshold. A tank with greater light has much less wiggle room with alga in terms of having organics in the system. It just doesn't take much to get it going. The hardest to clean of algae are high light low plant mass setups. 

For that very reason these conversations about finding the ultimate kill for BBA just don't really make much sense in the hobby. In one tank it could be light, another organics, another flow issues especially if you have slow growing plants, but they all work together and when a threshold is breached algae will grow. If the goal is to have a clean, algae free tank your better off doing everything from water changes, less feeding, purigen/carbon, etc to achieve that.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Marian Sterian
*“It was the most stable tank with impressive plant health, all in inert gravel. I used to change the water at 2-3 weeks and only 30% (osmosis water mixed with tap water). I still do not explain the perfection in which the plants were growing but I tend to think that the stability given by the minimal intervention had an important role.”*

Marian Sterian









Marian Sterian











Funny how crazy you go when I tell you about an experiment with 10% weekly water changes but 30% after 3 weeks is perfect.


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## Captain Knievel (Mar 20, 2019)

sdl1982,
You say your dosing for micros is 0.05 per gallon. Is this correct? I thought recommended was somewhere near 0.1ml per "10" gallons (or 1 drop) or 0.01ml per gallon. I too have been fighting bba to no avail and discovered, via math, that I was using 5 times the recommended micros. Everyone's setup is different and I am no expert. This change has helped me so I thought I would mention it even if I am wrong. Best of luck sir.

Captain Knievel


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