# 13x13x21in diary (pics)



## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

are these javas planted on the wood or did they grow this high off the substrate? its hard for me to tell, but it looks like theyre on the wood.

does anybody know what the realy tall plant in the back right corner is?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Looks like needle leaf java fern. It's probably planted on the substrate


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I think that the tall plant in the right corner could be one of these:
_Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae_
_Cryptocoryne retrospiralis_
_Cryptocoryne spiralis_
Link: http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_list.php?category=4&filter_by=15


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya ive heard that C. belansae can get real tall. imo it looks a lot like the C. spiralis, but the texture of the leaves look like the needle leaf java.

how tall do needle leaf java ferns get?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i know adding some gravel from a well established tank will jumpstart cycling. what about some activated carbon as well? found a replacement pack in my attic that has never been opened, thought id spread it out underneath the substrate

the substrate is now ADA aquasoil Amazonia


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i think the background is going to be needle leaf java, midground will be narrow leaf java. some java moss and fissidens on some of the wood. a few peices of slate with fissidens on them for a small carpet too.

put in a top and bottom shelf in the stand that came with the tank today:



my driftwood that barely fits in right now, i like how branchy it is:


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Thats a very tall tank  Driftwood looks nice


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya it is quite tall. ill have a couple inches of substrate in the bottom and i hope to make a nice bush at the base of the wood with narrow leaf java. needle leaf java will probably go in the back right corner, maybe C. belansae instead though. thinkin about addin a tiger lotus in there somewhere to add some color also


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Nice driftwood!




jackh said:


> ya ive heard that C. belansae can get real tall. imo it looks a lot like the C. spiralis, but the texture of the leaves look like the needle leaf java.
> 
> how tall do needle leaf java ferns get?


I just reread this question.

The plant in the very rear is not a fern. It is a crypt. I guess that you know this. now


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

One thing about the wood though, is that it will be hard to clean the glass with it that close  Im sure you'll find a way


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks leftc

ya i figured it was a crypt. do you think its C. belansae or spiralis? i really like the look of it either way. interested in gettin some unless needle leaf is tall enough for a background plant... still cant figure out if it will be lol


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

It's hard for me to tell what it is. Retrospiralis or Spiralis????


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

idk lol

when attaching all my narrow leaf java to the wood, should i tie it underneath the peice of wood where i can so the leaves will grow up and around the wood?


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## idontknow (May 9, 2008)

jackh said:


> idk lol
> 
> when attaching all my narrow leaf java to the wood, should i tie it underneath the peice of wood where i can so the leaves will grow up and around the wood?


I would say that depends on how much of the wood you want showing. Either way would work. Nice driftwood btw :thumbsup:


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

thats a great piece of dw for that tank


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

maybe ill anchor some sown under branches and also attach some on the underside of branches to i get full bushes where i want them

thanks for the compliments on the dw. it was a lucky find


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

sucked some sand and flourite out of my established 20g, sprinkled in the bottom for bacteria:



added 3 small bags out AC to speed up cycling:



just filled up. really cloudy huh. i think i like ADA AS lol:



wood in (not permanent positioning though):



my clip on desk lamps wont stay upright and in place where i need them, they just keep drooping down like this. any ideas?



mounted a strip inside. DIY co2 will go on bottom shelf. random stuff on top shelf as shown:


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## SeaSerpant (Feb 20, 2008)

very nice setup, i can't wait until it has plants and water :thumbsup:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks, its got the water in it now but plants should be here thursday or friday of this week 

gettin 3 golfballs of fissidens fontanus, golf ball of java moss, bunch of needle leaf java and a ton of narrow leaf java. still cant decide if i should try to find a tall crypt like belansae or spiralis for the very back corner though :help:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

got the lights to stay put. also floating a biowheel from an almost retired penguin on my established 20g

as of now:



still needa add a background. white, black or dark blue?


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## mizu-chan (May 13, 2008)

Looks great! Love the dimensions of this tank. Can't wait for the plants to be added.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks. would you by any chance know of any good lfs that have a good selection of plants?


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## mizu-chan (May 13, 2008)

jackh said:


> thanks. would you by any chance know of any good lfs that have a good selection of plants?


It's going to have to be Fish Gallery hands down. Awesome selection of plants. Unfortunately you missed the great sale they had in May and June, but I still fell that the prices are pretty fair. Happy shopping :thumbsup: 
One of my favorite places to go. :hihi:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

o, i really dont like fish gallery lol. everytime i go there ppl working there give me the eye, dont make me feel welcome for business at all. imo, their prices are very high too. ive left my number to be called about things i think 3 times now and they never call. 

id much rather go to fish ranch, but i know there are other places out there that ive never been. have you been to xtreme fish and pets or something liket hat?


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## mizu-chan (May 13, 2008)

jackh said:


> o, i really dont like fish gallery lol. everytime i go there ppl working there give me the eye, dont make me feel welcome for business at all. imo, their prices are very high too. ive left my number to be called about things i think 3 times now and they never call.
> 
> id much rather go to fish ranch, but i know there are other places out there that ive never been. have you been to xtreme fish and pets or something liket hat?


Hmm, yeah it's kind of hard to get some help there sometimes. I have been to Xtream Fish and Pets (went there today) and I like the plants there too. Always worked out for me. Also went to City Pets today, and they a bunch of plants up. The other places I've seen with a few plants is Fish and Pets. It's on Bellaire, before the street past Thai Spice. And I repeat -- the selection is minimal. I also found that there is a Petsmart in Katy that always has really healthy plants.
What kind of plants are you looking for?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya city pets always seems to have plenty of plants, large selection of fish too. dont think any right now, just spent $42 on plants from members on another forum.

30+ leaves of needle leaf java
20+ leaves of narrow leaf java
3 golfballs of fissidens fontanus
1 golfball of java moss


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i know adding animals is a long way away but ive been thinkin...

3 pitbull plecos
4 pygmy corys
couple amano
lots of rcs

then id like a schooling fish that will stay in the mid to upper levels. the tank is not very big so theres not all that much swimming room. id like5 or 6 glass cats but ive read they need lots of swimming space. any ideas?


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

How about ember tetras or axelrodi rasboras? You could have a pretty decent school since they both stay small.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i like the color of embers. i was also thinkin about lemon tetras. supposedly they school well and i really like theyre color, nice yellow body with red eyes. i think it would be a nice contrast to the dark substrate and bright green plants

lemon



ember


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

Lemmons get pretty large. I would say that they get in the 2" range or so.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Ember tetras only get to be ¾"


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

o i didn't know the lemons got that big. dam

would a group of like 6 or 7 embers school well in a tank my size? im just concerned that even though theyre a schooling fish they will scatter around instead of school since the tank is all height and no length


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

What you need are microrasboras. They get to 1/2" tops, are very nice looking, and you can find some at Fish Ranch. If they don't have the ones you want, talk to the owner. I've talked to him about them before so he might be agreeable in getting you some.

Alternatively, Fish Gallery (which I find to have a cold attitude, as well) has also had them. I got some there which is where I first fell in love with them. When I started to get more, we discovered they had ich so I didn't buy them. They have no guarantee so check out their fish very carefully before buying.

Here are my two favorites:

Boraras brigittae and Boraras maculatus

I have had as many as 9 in my 5g tank for about a year. I had bought 10, but Fish Gallery shorted me one (they are very small and hard to count). I still have 7. I recently lost one to some kind of bump it grew on its gill and the other one just disappeared (probably got eaten). They're in my tank with my RCS colony and a couple of pygmy cories.

I have the Boraras maculatus, but I want to get the Boraras brigittae next time. Both have a incredible deep red color. They are sometimes hard to tell apart from my RCS as they're the same adult size and about the same red color.

With a tank the size you have, you could get a really nice sized school. Heck, I'd go for 20 or so in your size of tank!

BTW, I noticed you want to get 3 plecos. Even though you're sticking with a smaller species, be aware that they are pooping machines! Heavy bioload. They also tend to be very shy (not all, but most). Unless you absolutely adore the fish, I'd skip them or go for only 1. Just too much bioload for a small tank.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i think i like the boraras brigittae the most. i think a large school of these little guys would look great in my tank. i saw a tan full at fish ranch the other day but i think they were the maculatus ones instead. they are so tine in person lol

would they school well in my tank with all its heights? if they did it would look great

i read some more on the plecos and i read that they sometimes fight so i was thinkin one would be better. i would just get a couple ocats but the pitbull plecos look a little neater imo


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Read the last post in the link for the Boraras maculatus above. That's my post. :smile:

They will school and not school, pretty much like neons. The issue with schooling fish is that they do it for protection. So in order for them to stick together as a tight school, they need to feel threatened. The idea is survival of the species. If attacked, hopefully the attacking fish won't get them all. The fish in the middle of the school will be protected while the outsiders get eaten. No different than herding animals.

So when the fish feel safe, they tend to wander off. Right now, I'm looking at my 20 cardinal tetras in my 75g tank, and they're scattered everywhere, not schooling at all. But when I introduce a new fish or mess with the planting design, suddenly they group together.

The microraboras come together very nicely at feeding time. They are not shy eaters! They're not aggressive, but unlike neons and cardinals which tend to hide a bit until you take a few steps back, the Boraras come running for the food.

If you get the owner of Fish Ranch to get you some Boraras brigittae, I'd like some, too. Tell him that the lady who loves Pelvicachromis fish (aka Kribs) wants some. I've already talked to him about it. So if he has another customer asking, maybe he'll go ahead with an order. I was only halfway interested so I didn't ask him to order any for me, but if he gets them in for you, I'll grab some, too.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

they would school great in your tank. get some microrasboras, otos, and some rcs and you'll be set roud:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thans for the info complexity 

maybe ill call fish ranch right now and see if they have any or when theyll get some in. if he doesn't have any ill mention that you would like some also. or do you think its too soon to ask him to order as the tank has only been filled for a day and i wont have plants in for another week?

my new fauna list :
15 ish boraras brigittae
6 pygmy corys
3 otos
rcs


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

just talked to the guy at fish ranch, said he didnt have any brigittae and he didn't seem to know what they were, said hed have to look them up in the book. he did say he had the boraras merah though, which imo looks a lot like the b. maculatus


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, I saw his Boraras merah when I was there. Not my favorite. Don't worry about him looking things up in his book. He refers to his book often even when talking about fish he has (we used it to help me select which species of Pelvicachromis I wanted). He and I have rummaged through the book together before.

If he won't order B. brigittae, it's a shame, but as they say, there's lots more LFS in the sea. Umm.. Well, something like that. 

Xtreme or T&T would be my next places to see if they'll order. Might have to get them online though.

Why such beautiful and hardy fish aren't readily available is beyond me. But if you want a 24" catfish, you can get that at any store!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Here's what his B. merah's looked like. Not a nice red, but more of a pale pink. They may have been stressed, but I don't think they're known for getting that beautiful deep red color like B. brigittae.

Excuse the foreign language in the link. It's the pics I wanted to show.

http://www.minifische.de/miniextern/BoraMera.html


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

jsut got back from there. got 5 ocats from him. some for my 20g and some for my 16 in a couple weeks.

i talked to him about the brigittaes and he said he sometimes had them, he thought hed be gettin some in soon, said he gets about 50 each time. i told him id need some in about 6 weeks and he just said to let him know and hed get some in for me


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Why such beautiful and hardy fish aren't readily available is beyond me. But if you want a 24" catfish, you can get that at any store!


when i was starting up my 20 a lady tried to sell me 2 baby channel cats... uy. 

jackh, ive read that pygmy cories eat tiny shrimplets and can get into places the shrimplets hide more easily than other fish. i think you should let your RCS colony establish before you add those. other than that, great choice of nano fish!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Great! Which store said that? Looks like I'm going to get some B. brigittaes in a month or two! Let me know when he places the order!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

chris127 said:


> when i was starting up my 20 a lady tried to sell me 2 baby channel cats... uy.
> 
> jackh, ive read that pygmy cories eat tiny shrimplets and can get into places the shrimplets hide more easily than other fish. i think you should let your RCS colony establish before you add those. other than that, great choice of nano fish!


good idea



Complexity said:


> Great! Which store said that? Looks like I'm going to get some B. brigittaes in a month or two! Let me know when he places the order!


that was fish ranch and ill pm you when he orders for me


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## mizu-chan (May 13, 2008)

Good choice of fauna. Just wondering, do you know if Fish Ranch sells the pygmy corys? Been looking for these little guys everywhere.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

someone at fish gallery yesterday said they get them in all the time. theyre gettin a big shipment in thursday or friday next week so call them then and ask.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yeah, I got mine at Fish Gallery. Haven't seen them at Fish Ranch. Fish Gallery tends to get specialty fish like that from time to time. They're not always in stock, but they get the frequently enough to get your hands on them if you're willing to wait.

While I really don't like Fish Gallery, let me post the link where they announce new arrivals. This might help you get what you want.

http://www.aquariumenvironments.com/umbrella/houston.html

Check their website for specials and coupons, too.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

sweet thanks that will help a lot


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Just caught up with this thread, I can't wait to see the tank planted! I've got 6 pygmy cories in my 30g tank and I absolutely adore them! I too am going for nano-fish and I'm really jealous you have a LFS around you that will get them in for you! Also, the crypt in the picture looking like crypt balansae to me, i have spiralis and retrospiralis in my tanks and it doesn't quite look like either of them. My second guess would be spiralis, it definitely doesn't look like retrosprialis, but i think blansae is more likely. Sorry, i don't know the answer to your java fern question though


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

o thats fine. do you have any pics of your pygmy corys? i thought these guys were like an inch long and then the guy at the lfs store compared the size to his thumbnail! cant wait to get some!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I do have some pictures, actually, i have pictures of them in all three of my journals  The best ones are in the 5.5g journal, post#12, there's some on the 20g journal, post #38, that was right after putting them in QT so their black stripe is a bit faded from stress, and there's a couple (not very good) pictures of them in my 30g thread. They're adorable and tiny! I think I want to get 4 more to make it an even 10 in the 30g


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ok ill check them out. 

update on the tank- got the plants in today and after 2 hrs of work this is the result:



so dam cloudy :icon_evil 





and heres a pic of the "forest" of needle leaf i have in the back corner. paid $20 bucks for "30" leaves and she sent me probably 200 leaves lol. still got some left over. this is about half of them:


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Cant wait for it to clear up! Why do you always have that little dumb test advertisement under your photos?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

and im not sure what to do with my baseball size clump of java moss. i wanted to have a bunch of rocks around the base of the wood and have the moss on the rocks and sort of spilling over them into the open front of the tank. the rocks i bought today really dont look good though so idk what to do. 

if i could get the dam driftwood down in the substrate it would be a lot easier to work in there... freakin thing floats still...


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

clwatkins10 said:


> Cant wait for it to clear up! Why do you always have that little dumb test advertisement under your photos?


idk i host all my images on imageshack and thats always there


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i dont like the look of the fissidens on the driftwood. its not a bright green like the pictures ive seen and i think its fissidens sp. not fontanus. its more of a dark green and its thick with small branches coming off the main stems. i think im gonna take it all off the driftwood and put java moss on. i just dont know what im gonna do with all the fissidens then lol. 

how long will it take for my dang water to clear up??? will it clear up faster with the filter on or off? i can also adjust the filtration rate since its an aquaclear.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

here is what i have:



here is a closeup of fissidens fontanus:
http://www.aquamoss.net/Fissidens-fontanus/images/Fissidens-fontanus-07.jpg

do i have fontanus or sp.? why is all my fissidens brown instead of bright green like the pics ive seen?


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well, I'm no moss expert, so I'm not sure on which fissidens you got, but it could be brown because it's not doing too well? Where did you get it? Maybe it needs some time to adjust and put out new leaves and those will be green? Unless there is a brownish color-form that I am unfamiliar with (i only just started using moss in my tanks and it's all Java (i think)). I'm surprised the tank didn't clear yet, what's causing the cloudiness? I'd think keeping the filter on will clear it fastest, i'm surprised it go so g=cloudy though! Is it a bacterial bloom? 

Well that's my $0.02 but I'll let the experts chime in too, maybe they have some better ideas for you! I can't wait to see it all planted when the tank clears!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya im def not a moss expert either. it just looks so bad right now imo that i feel like pulling it all off and tieing java moss on bc i know how that will look and i think it will look good imo. it just that if i dont use this fissidens, i will have wasted $24 plus shipping on it...

the water was always crystal clear until i moved the substrate around, then it got really cloudy so i dont think its any kinda bloom.

ill have to drain it again today to work on it and make the wood sit down and when i fill it back up i think im just gonna run a hose through my window into my room and turn it on super slow. maybe that will help keep it from gettin so dam cloudy


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

jackh said:


> here is what i have:


That moss in the pictures doesn't even look like Fissidens to me. Where did you get it? Can you take another picture of it with something for scale, like a dime?

I'm not a fan of java moss at all. I started with it like most people, but I always found it to grow too straggly. Even when it grew well (as in a lot of growth), it still didn't have a good appearance. I'd honestly suggest you figure out what's wrong with the plant you received that's supposed to be Fissidens as Fissidens would look a million times better in the long run.

For your cloudiness, do a full water change, making sure when you add the new water, you are very careful to not disturb the substrate. Use the plate trick. If your filter was better, I'd say run it until it clears, but what you have will take a long time to clean that up. And if you're using one of those filter cartridges (floss/carbon combination) then it'll never clean it because the particles are too small for the large holes in the floss. Changing out the water should clear things up pretty fast.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya its not fissidens like the guy said. i got my money back.

the java moss i have is actually really pretty and frondy unlike most stuff ive seen. looks almost like peacock moss imo:



and wtf is up with my water guys. i ran a hose into my room and clipped it over a plate, turned it up to a trickle and let the tank fill in the span of a little over 2 hrs. this is the first time i filled it up, substrate was just poured in and then the tank was filled.



and this is after a 50% water change the other day and then a 90% water change today. filled it slowly like i said earlier and its still this cloudy.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Yeah, that moss definitely isnt java, may be taiwan or peacock like you said


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya i like it a lot. i hope it is peacock lol


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## deleted_user_16 (Jan 20, 2008)

dont it kinda look like willow moss?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i looked up willow moss and it doesn't really look like that. looks more like peacock than anything else imo

heres a fts with no flash. see how dam cloudy it is??


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Let's backtrack. You put in the substrate, filled the tank with water, and all was fine. You put in the wood, and all was fine. Then you put in the plants which disturbed the substrate, and now, no matter what you do, it's always cloudy.

What plants did you put in?

What substrate are you using?

Did you rinse everything before adding it, including the substrate and plants?

The thing that gets me is that the substrate wasn't a problem before. Disturbing it for planting is no different than putting it in fresh given that you have emptied the water and refilled it (which is the same as adding the substrate fresh and adding water).

I'd stop adding anything until you find out what's causing this. If you don't figure out and fix what's caused this, then it'll happen every time you plant something.

I'm a little concerned about the plants since two plants were clearly mislabeled, the fissidens and java moss. I hope they weren't carrying something that's infected your tank, but I can't imagine what it would be to cause this.

I suppose it could be a bacterial bloom. I don't know much about them, but I wouldn't think you would be getting one at this stage of things.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Jack, what's your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings? This might be a bacteria bloom. I'm still unsure how it could be a bacteria bloom when you have no fish in the tank, but it's still good to test the readings to see if it can offer a clue.

From the little bit I've been reading, a bacteria bloom will come back very quickly after a water change. When you did the large water change, was the fresh water in the tank clear at any point or was it cloudy even while you were adding the water?


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## phatpanduh (Feb 17, 2008)

I know I'm late commenting but that drift wood is out of this world, nice find


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I'm thinking bacterial bloom, but I couldn't say for sure. They definitely can come up really quickly I think? Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking it's gotta be something other than the substrate if it was so clear the first time you filled it and you filled it the same way the second time? It could be tannins and GW too, but it doesn't look to be the right color for that?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> I'm thinking bacterial bloom, but I couldn't say for sure. They definitely can come up really quickly I think? Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm thinking it's gotta be something other than the substrate if it was so clear the first time you filled it and you filled it the same way the second time? It could be tannins and GW too, but it doesn't look to be the right color for that?


I'm thinking the same thing. I agree, this isn't tannins or green water. The closest it looks like, by its whitish color, is a bacterial bloom, but I don't know what could have caused it when there's no fish, no feeding, so there shouldn't be a source for ammonia. Even if the original dead/red looking plant mislabeled as Fissidens added ammonia to the tank due to die-off, I can't see that that could cause a bacterial bloom, especially after being removed and a 90% water change.

Given the size of the tank and the stage it's in (new and uncycled), I'd be inclined to tear it apart, wash the substrate, filter and all, and then test everything before putting it in to be sure it doesn't cause the water to cloud up. Just by cleaning everything, the problem may be resolved.

Whatever it is, I definitely wouldn't go further with planting or fish until this is identified and/or eradicated. That's not the way to start a new tank.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I'm thinking the bacterial bloom could maybe be caused by the nutrient rich substrate without enough plants to soak up those nutrients leave room for bacteria to proliferate? Maybe just giving the plants a few days to take hold and start sucking up the nutrients will out-compete the bacteria, similar to an algae (GW) bloom? Again, I might be totally wrong and someone feel free to correct me, but given the white cloudy color, i'm definitely inclined to say bacterial bloom. Very common with new tanks, sometimes, like green water (GW) it needs to run its course and get out competed i think. Given that there is no livestock yet though, cleaning everything may help too.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Amazonia leaches ammonia, which can cause a bacterial bloom, I think....


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Jack, I have a huge amount of hornwort you can have. It grows like a weed and will suck up nutrients like mad. You're welcome to however much you want. It's going to end up dying since I can't use it all.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Let's backtrack. You put in the substrate, filled the tank with water, and all was fine. You put in the wood, and all was fine. Then you put in the plants which disturbed the substrate, and now, no matter what you do, it's always cloudy.
> 
> What plants did you put in?
> none
> ...


i would say yes, but the water was this cloudy immediately after filup when i scaped it. if it had gotten cloudy even a couple hrs later i would believe it but wouldn't it take a little time for a bacterialy bloom to occur after i refill the tank?



Complexity said:


> Jack, what's your ammonia, nitrite and nitrate readings? This might be a bacteria bloom. I'm still unsure how it could be a bacteria bloom when you have no fish in the tank, but it's still good to test the readings to see if it can offer a clue.
> i havent tested anything yet. im gonna gee a master test kit tomorrow and test, ill post the results.
> 
> From the little bit I've been reading, a bacteria bloom will come back very quickly after a water change. When you did the large water change, was the fresh water in the tank clear at any point or was it cloudy even while you were adding the water?


when i basically drained the entire tank, scaped and refilled it was cloudy while i was refilling. thats why i think all this dusty stuff came up from the substrate



phatpanduh said:


> I know I'm late commenting but that drift wood is out of this world, nice find


thanks man 



Complexity said:


> Jack, I have a huge amount of hornwort you can have. It grows like a weed and will suck up nutrients like mad. You're welcome to however much you want. It's going to end up dying since I can't use it all.


if i figure out that this is a bacterial bloom i will definitely get some from you. will it grow floating in the tank?



here is the tanks current state. better than the last pic i took of it (day and a half ago) but still not crystal clear like it should be lol


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

It will clear up. At least mine always has. If you want to invest in anything get a Vortex diatom filter. These things are amazing and can filter out minute particles. Another option is to use Seachem's clarity along with a mircro/micron filter pad. It will also clear things up quickly. I agree that if it happened immediately when you refilled it's probably just dust from the soil. It would need a little time to be a bacterial bloom. You could also add some activated charcoal to your filter. It can only help... In either case, just be patient. Hang in there!!!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Tex Gal said:


> It will clear up. At least mine always has. If you want to invest in anything get a Vortex diatom filter. These things are amazing and can filter out minute particles. Another option is to use Seachem's clarity along with a mircro/micron filter pad. It will also clear things up quickly. I agree that if it happened immediately when you refilled it's probably just dust from the soil. It would need a little time to be a bacterial bloom. You could also add some activated charcoal to your filter. It can only help... In either case, just be patient. Hang in there!!!


are the vortex diatom filters expensive? would it be worth spending more? i already have a pouch of AC in the filter. should i trade out the little bag of ceramic cube things for another bag of AC?

i can tell that its clearing up, just slowly. so i think ill just wait instead of spend more money lol. i dont have anything else to do on it so i might as well.


this is a long time from now but should i add shrimp and snails before or after i add fish?


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

jackh said:


> are the vortex diatom filters expensive? would it be worth spending more? i already have a pouch of AC in the filter. should i trade out the little bag of ceramic cube things for another bag of AC?
> 
> i can tell that its clearing up, just slowly. so i think ill just wait instead of spend more money lol. i dont have anything else to do on it so i might as well.
> 
> ...


Do you mean that you have Purigen in a pouch. What is AC? Clarity or a like product will bind the small particles together so that they can be filtered out. (That's why I also suggested a micro/micron filter pad. http://www.bigalsonline.com/StoreCa...?&query=micron+filter+pad&queryType=0&offset= ) 

I got my Vortex XL from Toy Aqua for $94.90 shipped (314-754-8715). Here is a link to another web site to see what it looks like. These are work horses and last forever. I believe they were to 1st diatom filters out there. They have been around for decades. I'm glad I have one on hand. They are very easy to work with.
http://www.petsmart.com/product/ind...-646C-DD11-98CA-001422107090&mr:referralID=NA

When I did my tank I added shrimp and snails first. I felt like they were cheaper and were a good test to make sure my ammonia was down and safe. I had a diatom algae break out - new tank syndrome - and they took care of that quickly! I think it's just a matter of opinion.

Good luck!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

AC is activated carbon. is that like activated charcoal?

can i buy one of those filter pads and then cut it down to fit in my filter?


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

jackh said:


> AC is activated carbon. is that like activated charcoal?
> 
> can i buy one of those filter pads and then cut it down to fit in my filter?


Oh, yes, carbon = charcoal.

Yes, it's a sheet that you can cut to size. It's much cheaper that way. I have used this with the Seachem clarity. Works great. Is cheap. Without any fish in your tank you could use the clarity every day. With livestock you'd have to follow bottle instructions. I have used it with livestock (including shrimp) in my Amazonia II days. (You don't have Amazonia II!?) It is perfectly safe.


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## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Hey Jack great journal and the Wood is Awesome dude. To answer your question to the cloudyness. When you first put it in it is clear becasue the AS has not completly absorbed the water. Thus you seen the bubbles in your first pic. But after a couple days the AS takes in the ater and becomes less resistent. So basically when ever you move your substrate it rubs agaist eachother and cuases the water to be cloudy. I think this would be a good hypothesis!


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

I'm wondering if you have enough filtration. When I do a big plant/replant in my A.S. it takes about 1 hour to clear up. If I am just moving a few things around I get no dust. I just pulled out a HUGE madacasgar lace plant today and didn't get a lot of cloudiness. It had a large root structure too.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Tex Gal said:


> Oh, yes, carbon = charcoal.
> 
> Yes, it's a sheet that you can cut to size. It's much cheaper that way. I have used this with the Seachem clarity. Works great. Is cheap. Without any fish in your tank you could use the clarity every day. With livestock you'd have to follow bottle instructions. I have used it with livestock (including shrimp) in my Amazonia II days. (You don't have Amazonia II!?) It is perfectly safe.


crap i cant remember if its amazonia II or not and i threw away the bag already lol. ill wait a couple more days and if its still cloudy ill get a filter pad. if that doesn't help ill the the seachem stuff. theres not really any rush cuz i cant put any animals in it for another couple weeks 



thief said:


> Hey Jack great journal and the Wood is Awesome dude. To answer your question to the cloudyness. When you first put it in it is clear becasue the AS has not completly absorbed the water. Thus you seen the bubbles in your first pic. But after a couple days the AS takes in the ater and becomes less resistent. So basically when ever you move your substrate it rubs agaist eachother and cuases the water to be cloudy. I think this would be a good hypothesis!


thanks lots of ppl have told me they like the wood! i think you are correct about this one. when i first filled the tank up i noticed the bubbles. i moved some of the AS around and bubbles came up but no dust. now days if i move the substrate, a cloud of crap comes up lol


do yall think the water will clear faster with the filter on or off? i can also turn the filtration rate up or down. just thought that if the tiny particles were passing through the filter i could turn it off so theyd sink.


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## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes I think my idea may be correct. I have Amazonian 1 in my Mini M and when ever I change the hardscape it takes 2-5 days to be Crystal clear without any disturbance.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ok awesome i think thats my problem then. 

i picked up an ADA catalog at an aquarium place and found this pic in it.



i really liked the rocks they used so i found these:



yall think theyll look good?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Regarding the hornwort, you can float it or weight it down. It doesn't grow roots so you can do whatever you want with it.

In the process of rescaping my own tank, I ended up with cloudiness almost identical to yours. It happened because I added more Eco Complete to the substrate, and that stuff is not supposed to be added when there's water in the tank. But since I don't have a place for my fish, I had no choice.

The water was horrible! It was even foaming at the top. It was so bad, it scared me.

I had about 25% of water in the tank when I added the eco complete. Once I finished, I syphoned it down to probably 15%. Then I added fresh water. Even with a large 75g tank, the fresh water combined with the cloudy water from the eco complete to become something very similar to what I see in your pictures.

But here's where things are different. Once I filled up the tank and turned my filters back on, the water cleared up very quickly. In less than an hour, the water was decent. After running all night long, it's sparkling again.

I think you do not have adequate filtration for the tank. I realize it's not a huge tank, but quality filtration matters on any size tank. The filter you have may be having problems not only because those cartridges you get in the store are worthless, but also because of the tank's deep size as compared to its width. An HOB filter depends on using the outflow water to circulate the tank water. This way the entire water column gets circulated and filtered. But an HOB can only circulate so much water. It might be trying to do its job, but it could simply be unable to move the water around enough to get it all filtered. End result: a large portion of the water remains dirty.

Put a very soft plant that moves very easily at the bottom of the tank. Check all 4 corners. You can weigh it down rather than inserting it into the substrate to prevent it from kicking up crud. Now see if the plant moves to the current. If it moves at all 4 corners, then all of the water is being circulated. But if it doesn't move or moves very little, then that's a problem. Your water isn't being circulated so the filter can't even attempt to clean it.

I honestly think you'd do better to invest in a Rena XP1 or XP2. You can put the spray bar down the back of a corner in a vertical position. Then you will know for sure all of the water is being circulated. Also, with such a deep tank, it wouldn't hurt to do your own plumbing in the input so you can have at least two places where the water is drawn: about 1/3rd and 2/3rds of the way up the tank. This way, not only is your water being well circulated, but it's also being taken in at different levels, ensuring that debris from different levels is filtered.

Take a look on eBay for a decent price. Just check out the seller closely. I got my Rena XP4 on eBay for $150, and that's for a NEW one, not used. As far as the plumbing, I can show you how I have mine. I have two canisters, each with two intakes and two outputs. Both intakes get all kinds of crud so I know they're working in unison.

So, basically, my conclusion is that you have inadequate filtration. No HOB will do a good job in a tank with those dimensions. You not only need a stronger filter, but you need one that can move the water at all levels which you will not be able to do with an HOB. Using a canister, even on a tank of the size you have, should clear this problem up in an hour or less.

Consider this idea not only because you're having the problem now, but because every time you disturb that substrate, you'll have this problem all over again. It's not good for fish and it's not good for the water quality in general.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

well i know know the front of the tank gets circulated cuz when i refileld it there was a layer of dust that was hangin over the substrate. when i turned the filter on i second or two later i could see the current kicking it up.

i think id rather get a micron pad first since thats like $5 and if that still doesn't work ill get another filter.

is this what your talkin about thought? i mean this ones only $28 (i call dibs lol)

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rena-Filstar-XP...ryZ46310QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Too new of a seller. He only has 1 feedback. If you don't mind risking the money, go for it. Otherwise, look for a better seller.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

There are other auctions for used XP1s that are very cheap with sellers with more feedback from which to judge.

Just keep looking. Don't forget to check the eBay Stores. You may stumble into an XP2 for a better price since I think they're probably sold more often than XP1s.

But if you're getting the circulation in all corners, then I'd agree to start off with the micro pad. Just remember, anything that can filter tiny particles will also clog up quickly. That's why canisters are better because rather than having to use one sliver of a pad to do all the filtering, it has various stages so by the time the water gets to the final micro pad, only those tiny particles get trapped, not all the other stuff because it's already been filtered out.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

alright ill check it out


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

jackh said:


> crap i cant remember if its amazonia II or not and i threw away the bag already lol. ill wait a couple more days and if its still cloudy ill get a filter pad. if that doesn't help ill the the seachem stuff. theres not really any rush cuz i cant put any animals in it for another couple weeks
> 
> do yall think the water will clear faster with the filter on or off? i can also turn the filtration rate up or down. just thought that if the tiny particles were passing through the filter i could turn it off so theyd sink.


If you have Amazonia II it may never clear up. I have a thread on APC about my trials with Amazonia II for 4 & 5 months. I eventually had to change out to Amazonia original. I had even gotten rid of my clown, yoyo, and botia loaches thinking they were the problem. When I finally changed the substrate out I found that the back of my tank was down to 1 inch from 3 inches. I was filtering out my substrate one filter at a time for 4-5 months. That is when I bought the diatom filter. I had also had a korolia in the tank and removed that thinking it was stirring it up. I hope that is not your problem.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

im pretty sure i have amazonia original. i never noticed the "II" anywhere on the package but i sure hope im right. installed two thin layers of micron filter pad in the aquaclear. put them on top of the sponge that i had in there. ill post before and after pics tomorrow and ill check the pads to see if theyre darker. my white sponge was a dark brown when i took it out a sec ago lol


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

put 2 layers of micron filter pad above the sponge to try and filter out the small stuff:







what is this?...


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

here are the test results. anything wrong? should the ammonia be this high?


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## mpodolan (Mar 27, 2007)

Yes, the ADA AS will cause an ammonia spike. There are lots of threads around here about using AS. Water changes and such are generally in order when first using AS.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

is the last pic in post #93 BBA??


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Geeez, that ammonia is high. :icon_eek: Good thing there's no fish in there.

I can't tell for sure if that's BBA, but it's possible. Can you tell what color it is? It looks like it's on a leaf. If so, remove the leaf and take a close up photo. Let's hope you're not getting BBA.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya seriously lol. 

did a couple things today. ive added 3 tiger lotus around the base of the driftwood. then i did basically a 100% water change. i siphoned almost all the water out, then ran a hose into the tank and had it run over a small bowl. while the hose was running i was also siphoning. the water is now basically crystal clear (for the moment lol). ill update when im done and post a pic of it along with that leaf with algea. im almost positive that stuff was on the leaf when i got the plant. 

i might add some rocks too. im not too pleased with their color at the moment but hopefully theyll look better with some algea growing on them, makin them look a little darker (?)


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Where are the pictures? :hihi:


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

heehee I was going to ask the same thing! I want that picture while we can see the plants!!!  :hihi:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

haha patience patience ppl

heres the algea:




the camera died and its charging right now, but get excited...:hihi:


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Yup, that looks like BBA. My condolences. 

At least your tank is small and just starting out. Take whatever plant that came from and treat it using either H202 or Excel. If it's on one leaf, it's on other places of the plant. To be honest, I would remove that plant and keep it isolated until you are absolutely positive it does not have BBA. I wish I had known to do that.

Instead, I put some anubias in my tank that had BBA. I had treated them with 1:20 bleach for 2 minutes, but I'll be darned if a tiny bit survived. Now it's spreading everywhere. I've had to remove all slow growing plants (enough that it completely fills a 10g tank). I will then start treating the plants with Excel until I get rid of it all.

In fact, since you don't have any fish and few plants, you can overdose the Excel directly in the tank. BBA is in your filter so you'd do best by treating the entire tank right now.

Next time I see BBA anywhere near anything I want to buy, I will _run_ the other way! Not only is the BBA in my 75g, but I'm beginning to see it in my 20L, probably transferred through my python or other tools

If you attack the BBA right now, you can kill it out before it does any real harm. Just don't do what I did and treat the plants one time and think that's it. Keep a careful watch for BBA throughout the tank.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

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/img156/pics061ci8.jpg/1/w800.png








/img156/pics066wg1.jpg/1/w800.png


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

dam i was hoping id be lucky and it was some algea that was easy to deal with lol. how much should i overdose? ill start that in the morning. my co2 is hooked to the little internal filter which makes it such a fine mist that the bubbles foat around the tank for a while before finally reaching the surface, its doin really good. the lotus immediately started to pearl, but i think the bubbles on everything else was just co2 bubbles getting stuck (?)


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hey the tank is looking great!!! 

As for the BBA, you could definitely try overdosing with excel, and if you see patched pooping up, if you have a syringe, pipette or eyedropper you can try spot treating too, turn off the filter and squirt it out just above the effected area, it works miraculously well for hair algae, and i've heard good things about it working with BBA as well. Good luck!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks i think its coming along nicely. i might get one more little tiger lotus, i cant decide. i want my pygmy corys to have some open substrate to swim around


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Where are you getting the tiger lotus?

I hope your pygmy corys use the open space. Mine tended to like to hide. I still have 2 left, but almost never see them.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

$5.99 at fish ranch, $12.99 at city pets, both the exact same size.

i bought from fish ranch 

what do you mean you only have 2 left, did the others die?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Great! Now I have a good reason to go to Fish Ranch!  I got one, but it's not doing well. The first sign of trouble was that the roots fell off. It might make it, but I'd like to have a nice one now, not months from now.

How large are the "bulbs" on the tiger lotuses at Fish Ranch? The one I have now is about the size of a pea.

Regarding the pygmy corys, yes, the others died. One by one. In different tanks. I have no idea why. But these two have hung in there for a long time. I guess it's like getting ottos. Lots of losses, but when they make it, they're good. Or maybe I just don't know how to keep them healthy and these two just got lucky?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i bought three and they were pictured earlier in here. the first two on the right side of the tank have no bulb. the small one has a bulb thats id say a little bigger than a marble.

sry about the corys, i cant wait to get some but i hope they dont die. i bought 5 o cats at fish ranch the other day and they all went in my 20 and theyre really fat. i hope none die


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

They have ottos at Fish Ranch? I need some for my 75g. I know where I'm going to go tomorrow! 

When you get your corys, let me know which kind you get and how they do. I like the two I still have left, but I don't think I'll get anymore unless I try a different species.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, and about the tiger lotus. I didn't know they could grow without a bulb. So maybe mine has a real shot at surviving then? I still want another one, but this gives me some hope for the one I have now.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

when i got my ottos they only had like 4 left in the tank they keep them in and there was one more in some random tank that i got also.

i dont know much about tiger lotus but the two i have with no bulb are really healthy lookin


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

just took an ammonia reading



i have a ton of mosquito fish in a pond in my bakyard. should i add a couple to the tank to help the cycling process? i can just throw them back when i get good fish.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Oh, yeah... so you start off by getting all excited that they had nice, fat ottos in stock only to tell me you bought them all? Some friend you are! 

Actually, that may be better anyway. I just realized that the nerite snails have done an incredible job of cleaning the algae! I was noticing how sparkling the tank was looking and thought it was because I had just done a large water change. But then I noticed that one of my filters wasn't pushing the water through like it should so I decided to replace the fine filter pad.

In the process, I moved the flexible output I have on that filter and that's when I realized that they had cleaned it up! It was covered in green algae, but it's very clean now! So I started looking around, and I can't really find any algae anywhere. Well, there's a little here and there, but nothing like it was.

Those little snails cleaned up the algae so fast, I'm a little worried how I will be able to keep them fed! Plus, I have 6 more coming.

I have some algae on the plants that I've been floating in my other tank so maybe they'll clean those up, too. I will definitely be putting some in my 20L. I have ottos in that tank, but they aren't doing as good a job as I had hoped.

So the more I think about it, the more I'm beginning to think I shouldn't buy any more ottos. The nerite snails might eat up so much algae there won't be any left for the ottos!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Your ammonia reading looks _much_ better! Do you think it's from the water change?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Complexity said:


> Oh, yeah... so you start off by getting all excited that they had nice, fat ottos in stock only to tell me you bought them all? Some friend you are!
> 
> Actually, that may be better anyway. I just realized that the nerite snails have done an incredible job of cleaning the algae! I was noticing how sparkling the tank was looking and thought it was because I had just done a large water change. But then I noticed that one of my filters wasn't pushing the water through like it should so I decided to replace the fine filter pad.
> 
> ...


no no, i said mine were nice and fat, not the ones they had in stock :hihi: 

thats great. maybe ill pace an order for some soon. i cant decide between zebras or red spotted. maybe both :icon_idea 



Complexity said:


> Your ammonia reading looks _much_ better! Do you think it's from the water change?


ya i guess so since i basically did a 125% water change if thats even possible lol.

you think i should throw in some mosquito fish for cycling? i also have red horse minnows in the pong that i could catch out.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

I think 125% water change would defintiely have done the trick with lowering ammonia! :hihi: 

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me that the pygmy cories are similar to Otos in that they do much better if they are slllloooowwwwwlllllly drip-acclimated. Other than that, they seem pretty hardy! I throw in a bottom feeder wafer (i switch it up between "bottom feeder" and "algae" wafers) for them every few days and they seem to gobble it up!  

As for the mosquito fish, I probably wouldn't recommend it because you have no idea what diseases you be bringing into the tank or what diseases you be setting back into the water they came from if you release them later. I'd be most worried about them bringing in diseases to the fish you plan on putting in the tank though. Plus, with the amazonia soil leaching ammonia, you probably don't really need a supplemental ammonia source to get the cycle started I wouldn't think.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Ditto on the ammonia leaching and no mosquito fish.

As far as my corys not making it, they didn't die suddenly. They died slowly over the course of 6 months or better. I never understood why. None of the other fish in the tanks (I had them in 4 different tanks) were adversely affected. They'd just die. Why these last 2 have lived so long, I don't know. I know they paired up immediately, rejecting all the others which ended up dying. I thought maybe they didn't like my water or something?

The zebras are pretty. I still have all 6 in the tank even thought I've had the lid off and canopy open this entire time. I never could find the 6th of the odd nerites. The 5 I found are in a very closed tank, but they prefer to hide on the lid out of the water. I have no idea what I'm going to do with them. I don't have the heart to kill them, but who would actually want them?

I'm not a snail person, but I have to admit I like the nerties. I may change my mind when they start laying eggs as I've read they get everywhere and are hard to remove. Maybe I can figure out how to sex them and only keep the males?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya that was in the back of my mind when i was thinkin about adding them but thought id ask anyways. i didnt drip acclimate my ottos. i floated the bag for like 15 min, added about a cup of tank water, floated for 10 min then released and theyre fine.

complexity why dont you just mail the bad snails back to the guy? and i thought nerites wound't breed in fw?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I don't want to pay to mail them back, and he didn't offer.

For now, they're not hurting anything and they're not going anywhere (well, except the one escapee). I thought I'd put them in the SNS for anyone who would pay for shipping. Maybe someone would like them. I'll just be honest about how they behave for me and see what happens.

Before I do that, though, I think I should probably at least try to get an ID on them. If I knew what they were, then that might explain their behavior better.

To the best of my knowledge, nerites cannot breed in FW, but that doesn't stop the females from laying the eggs! Given how fast and how well they cleaned up my tank, any eggs they may lay might just be worth it. I have never seen any animal clean up algae like this!

You know that algae that forms on the glass that you have to scrape away every day? It just keeps coming back. It's not all that bad, but still a pain. And then in areas in which you don't scrape it off, it starts building up a little. It's actually a pretty green algae when on rocks and driftwood but not so pretty on the glass and plumbing. The back wall of my 75g was never really ever cleaned because I can't reach back there very easily; plus, even when I did reach back there, all the plumbing got in the way. That whole back wall is almost perfectly clean. There are a few places they didn't get yet, but I'm certain they will. And NO algae on the front of the glass. It is spotless!

I'm thinking of moving a couple into my 20L tank to see what they do there. I have the dwarf loaches, but I don't think they are large enough to hurt the snails. I could always give one a try and see what happens. I have some spot algae on the glass of that tank so it'll be amazing to see if they can clean that off!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

so are nerites like notorious for layin eggs everywhere or something? ive never read anything about that.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Do a google search for nerite eggs. I picked up a couple of articles while trying to get info on the other snails I got. There are some pictures in google imagines, as well.


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

IMO, BBA is one of the easiest algaes to kill. Just use a dropper and squirt Excel directly on the algae. It will turn red, and die and fall off. If you do an initial dose (per bottle directions) everyday with the dropper going around the tank to wherever you see the BBA you will be able to quickly eradicate it from your tank. I do know how it could be "lurking somewhere in your tank. It just seems to magically appear. I have had a pristine environment and then have it appear when I run out of CO2 or vacation with no nutrient dosing.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ok ill start the initial dose per day method tomorrow morning then thanks  

im not leanin towards a more shrimp tank with just a single centerpeice fish species. thinkin ill get a couple ottos, then maybe 20 boraras brigittae (depends how much they cost) and i really want some low grade blue tiger shrimp and yellow shrimp, and lots of each .


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## fishbguy1 (Feb 29, 2008)

On the topic of dwarf cories, I have C. habrosus atm.

At first, I bought 8 of them. I lost all but 2 within the week. My phosphates (which they are sensitive to) were really high. After I got teh 2 that made it, I waited a couple of weeks and bought 4 more, and I have since lost 1. I now have 5 of the little guys, and they are doing great. I almost bought a couple of more today, but I used my will power to say no...haha (actually I used my cory money on microrasboras)


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Which microrasboras did you get?

My corys were C. pygmaeus.

What causes high phosphates? I wonder if that's what made mine die?


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

high phosphates really? That's interesting...maybe I should look into gettin a test kit for that to monitor for the little guys. Though my 6 seem to be doing well so far in the new tank. Mine are pygmaeus as well though, not Habrosus. 

JackH, yeah, doing the spot treatment of excel should work pretty well, let us know how it goes! And I think a shrimp with 1 centerpiece fish tank sounds like a really cool idea!  the B. brigittae aren't too bad cost-wise...at least IMO, i suppose it depends on what you think "too much" would be though :hihi: but I just ordered 15 of them and 15 ember tetras from Milalic on this forum (my LFS couldn't get them in for me) and I thought the prices were fair, and his shipping cost was reasonable too! They should be in today so I can let you know how they look! (unless you can get yours locally in which case, just ignore me! :icon_lol: :tongue


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya if you can post a pic or two of each fish. ive seen a pic of an ember tetra before and it looked amazing, but they looked pretty dull in the other pics ive seen. milalic's brigittae dont look all that colorful in his pics also. my lfs claims he can get them in for me but time will tell.


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## fishbguy1 (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm not sure what causes it, by my tap water is really high in it. Off the charts in the testkit I use.

(talking about phosphates)


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

jackh said:


> ya if you can post a pic or two of each fish. ive seen a pic of an ember tetra before and it looked amazing, but they looked pretty dull in the other pics ive seen. milalic's brigittae dont look all that colorful in his pics also. my lfs claims he can get them in for me but time will tell.


Which LFS is saying they can get them? I guess I'm still in the market since the ones I got from Pedro aren't what I had hoped. I didn't know brigittaes could be a pale pink color and not red. I'm still hoping it's due to stress, but after this much time, I'm beginning to lose hope.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

fish ranch says he gets them occasionally and fish gallery says the same thing but he said theyre getting pretty hard to get in, not sure why though


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Fish Gallery had them in a few months back, but as the guy was bagging them for me, he noticed that some had ich. I agreed with his suggestion that I not get them (of course). Fortunately, I was being helped by the one person in that store that I like, and I really appreciate that he spotted the ich and did the right thing by suggesting I not get them.

I didn't go to Fish Ranch this week like I had planned. Maybe I'll check in this next week. I do think I'd like to get some ottos if they have any, if for no other reason than the fact that I just plain like the ottos.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Well I got my fish, they're still zooming around pretty quickly, when they settle in some more I'll try to get pictures for you. The embers are a much prettier color than I was expecting, more coral colored than the orange. I was pleasantly surprised. The B. brigittae are paler than I was expecting, but they are coloring up nicely, the pink tips on their fins are really standing out. *Vicki* - I have a feeling they're paler than you were expecting because they're young still, I could be wrong, I got mine from Pedro too (of course I don't know if we got them from the same stock from him) but mine are ~.5 inch long and they get to ~1.25 inches from what I hear, so maybe they just need time to mature and get their color? I could be wrong of course, it's my first experience with them. Just a thought though.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

wow i didn't know brigittae got that big. i thought they never got longer than an inch. ive only seen them around .5 but they could be young like you said.

would neon dwarf rainbows be cramped in this small of a footprint? also does anybody know if they will eat rcs and similar sized shrimp? i really like their colors, thinkin about gettin some and sellin the harlequin rasboras i have in my other tank.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Jack, different Borasas species grow to different sizes. All are still small, but the brigittae's grow a bit larger.

Karackle, I was thinking that it may be because they're young. I don't know. They definitely have the right markings. I guess only time will tell.

Let me know how yours are doing colorwise, especially if yours begin showing a true red color. I have mine in Q/T with amano shrimp, and I'm also wondering if the shrimp somehow have them stressed. I think I'll separate them from the amanos to see if that helps them to color up.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

yall think i have enough light to grow a nice carpet of HC in the front?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i really like how your needle leaf is placed  its looking good!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks 

my amonia is at 1.0 ppm. i think its gettin better. im probably gonna do a smal w/c tomorrow. stuck some mts in there to see how theyd do and start eatin algea on the plants


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Jack - Seems like things are progressing nicely! Yeah the Brigittae are on the "larger" side for the boraras genus, but they're still pretty small it sounds like, i haven't seen a fully grown one yet though so I don't know. I'll try to get pictures of the fish this evening. Sorry, I don't know anything about Rainbows so i cna't answer that question

Vicki - i found this article http://www.fishchannel.com/freshwat...ater-aquariums/species-info/boraras-brigittae that seems to suggest the dominant male gets the darkest red color, but it says in his tank that really comes out around 1year, so I'm thinking they color up more as they get older? So I suppose like you said, only time will tell!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle, thanks for that link! So the fry start out clear and color up as they get older. That makes sense then. So, hopefully the pink color they are now is just an in-between color as juveniles.

I talked with Pedro last night, and he wants me to let him know how they color up as time goes on.

Unfortunately, I may have another reason why mine are so pink. They have ich. I discovered it last night when one of the fish looked deformed. I looked closer and discovered it was a white stop. Looking closely at the other fish, I could see some were getting white spots, too. So I'm starting to treat them now. Thank goodness I use Q/T tanks!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

You're welcome! I'm hoping it's just an in between color phase as well, glad you found the link useful  But yeah, it's definitely a good thing you use QT tanks! I'll have to keep an extra close eye on mine for Ich! I didn't use QT this time because of nowhere to put them so I hope they don't get Ich! Sorry about the thread hijack Jack!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Actually, Jack is interested in the Borasas so I'm sure he doesn't mind the hijack. :smile:

I'm not sure what brought on the ich so yours may be fine. Just keep a close eye on them, of course. Hopefully, mine will recover (I might lose one or two that are badly infected). I've done a major cleaning of their Q/T and am drip acclimating them now to match the temps. I have the salt ready and will then use Rid Ich + which I have used with great success before. So they have a good chance at recovery. But if not, at least they can't infect my other fish. I even have two pythons which is saving my fish right now since I didn't see the spots until after I did a water change. So the Q/T python is infected while my regular python is not.

Always a challenge when it comes to our hobby!


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Hahaha given that he's interested in them too, i recko you're right that Jack might not mind the hijack  

Yeah i'll certainly keep a close eye on them, good luck with yours, though it sounds like you have it pretty well under control! Lucky about the extra python too, having extras on hand like that sure come in handy with things like Ich outbreaks.

I agree, there's no doubt that there's always one thing or another that's challenging in this hobby! It's part of what keeps us going though i think, at least it is for me  Though I prefer when I'm challenged by 'scaping than ich outbreaks of course...

*Jackh -* How goes your tank?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

o its not a big deal guys i dont care 

my tank is great, i can tell the moss which i really think is peacock is starting to grow onto the wood. the wood is steel makin the water turn brown but its gettin better. been a few days and its not all that bad. thinkin about takin a some of the rocks in the back left corner out so i have rocks just around the center peice of wood and plants, then ill have room for a for ground plant. idk if i have enough light to grow any kind of for ground though so if not, i wont bother moving things around. 

im takin an aquatic science class and i have a couple options on what kind of set up i can do in the class. id appreciate some opinions on the thread ill make.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

That's cool, sounds great! I'd love to give some feedback on the tank for the class  

So I looked in on my brigittae after work, and I definitely have a few that are starting to show the nice red color. My camera batteries died before I could get a good picture, but I got a couple that show the color quite well: 



















The last one is a little exaggerated from hitting the "enhance" button in iPhoto, but you couldn't see him really at all without it so....it's pretty close though


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

wow those are coloring up pretty nice


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Thanks! So those are the guys I ordered from Pedro. The ember tetras are a beautiful color too. Some of the b. brigittae are still pretty pale, but I'm thinking perhaps those are the females? So if you wanted a tankfull of all brightly colored fish, you might be better getting ones where the females are just as birght. If you don't mind a mix of the bright red and slightly less bright red though, these are truly stunning little fish!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

are the embers smaller than the brigittae?


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

At the moment they are all about the same size, but from what I understand the embers won't get quite as big as the brigittae, i think they stay around or under the 1" mark (most of the info i've found on them says 2cm). So yes, I think their full-grown size is a little smaller than the brigittae.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

witha size that small and that color those are more appealing to me than the brigittae at the moment lol


no shots of the 16, gonna do a wc right now, maybe add an anubias nana from my other tank to the base of the wood.

heres a pic of my other tank at the moment. sry about the bad pic quality and the net breeder. its holding some java moss and narrow leaf jf plantlets. as you can see in the front left corner, the white sand stays really dirty most of the time and its realy freakin annoyin. i cant keep the flourite out of it and the red against white sticks out so much lol. im thinkin about suckin out all the sand, throwing some ADA AS or flourite in its place, then tryin to grow a nice forground of HC or glosso. right now im runnin a 36w 10k and 36w actinic bulb, i know they both need high lighting so i could just change the actinic to a 65k. what do yall think, will it be worth it? it will atleast give me something to do lol. 

i for sure want to have more substrate in the front than there is now, the rocks look a little too big bc theres so much of them exposed. i contemplated pullin them out but they would serve as good dividers to keep glosso out of my other plants. anyways heres a pics of the tank




and the annoyingness:


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

good reasons to go for the embers, in my tank, the embers have been schooling a lot more than the rasboras too, if you're looking for a good schooling fish, they might fit your requirements better :thumbsup: 

As for the other tank, you could either suck out the sand or not try to fight the inevitable and just let it do it's thing, it will eventually become the bottom layer. I don't think you need to go too much deeper with the substrate if you're planning on carpeting the bottom with something because that would likely add the extra "depth" your looking for to cover some of the exposed rock. Your choice though of course!  I think a carpet would look awesome in that tank though and really finish off the look of it! :thumbsup:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya your exactly right. i could suck out just a little and then wouldn't have to add as much on top of it and still get more height. but, i dont have any suitable substrate to grow a carpet and the smallest bad of ADA AS would probably be enough to fill that front space to the depth i want. in which case, i wouldn't need the bottom layer of sand. idk ill have to think about it.

now for the right tank 

before a wc. the woods still makin the water tea colored, but i thought this was a cool pic



added a background, took out some rocks, moved some plants and added an anubias nana. what do you think?



growth of my moss


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i tested the ammonia before i did a 100%ish water change today and it tested zero. i say 100% cuz i ran a hose into the tank and syphoned at the same time to get the water uncloudy after movin stuff around. 

on friday it will be 3 weeks old. i got some algea growin in my filter and on the biowheel floating in the tank. i think the AC under the gravel and the biowheel helped speed things up alot. im leavin town this weekend so i think ill add some stuff next monday if the water still checks out fine.

what should i add first? algea control crew? i realy dont have much algea on the plants or anything so im kinda reluctant. if i add shrimp i would just feed them but idk what id feed ottos


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

jackh, i remember reading somewhere on here that you can use a sifter thing (those stuff with mesh) to seperate the flourite from the sand.

That might help a bit.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thats a great idea. ive been suckin it up in waterchanges and try to grab random bits with my tweezers lol


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

theres stuff like this on the jf leaves and the anubias. it looks like fish or snail poop but theres no fish and not enough snails to make this much waste. anybody know what it is?


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Looks like diatomacious (brown) algae....does it wipe off easily? Otos will eat that up. You can also feed algae wafers / bottom feeder wafers to Otos, mine gobble them up, i used to think they wouldn't eat them, but they tend to wait until the wafer has absorbed water and broken apart. 

Tank is looking great! filling in really well around the DW, I like it!


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

o ya this stuff comes right off, its like its not even growing on the plant. the current from my hand passing by is enough to wash it off. idk anything about brown algea so is this what it is?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

diatoms, otos love em. its looking great! although imo i think the lotus plants distract from the awesome java fern/driftwood you have. try taking the front one out and see how you like it. but aside from that, i think youre on the way to having a beautiful tank


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

thanks for the compliments guys. i now have a feeling the lotus will get a little too big than id like so if that happens ill sell them back to the lfs. 

the moss has grown in quite a bit, its starting to look like green fur in the dw, looks kinda cool. i think in another week it will start to get more frondy and look really sweet. should i take an otto or two out of my 20 and put them in the 16? i bought 5 a while ago thinkin id put 2 in the 16 but they could live in the 20 until then. is it finally time? lol

im ready for fish . i think ill add shrimp first though. i really want some blue tigers and yellow shrimp in there. idk where to get either, so i might just throw some rcs in. thats the cheapest alternative and i could just get some blue tigers later on if theyre not too expensive. i cant keep rcs and yellows together though, theyll interbreed 



ive been lookin at a bunch of dart frog tanks online and lookin around dendroboard.com and im starting to regret turnin this shape of a tank into an aquarium rather than a viv housing some sweet frogs... maybe ill go buy a viv some time and make one. look what i found on here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/vivarium-terrarium/50347-snapples-44gal-dart-tank-july-16-a-2.html

look cool or what?


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

jackh said:


> i now have a feeling the lotus will get a little too big than id like so if that happens ill sell them back to the lfs.


You'd better not! :icon_eek: Mine isn't doing so hot so if your lotus grows too large, I'll buy it from you. :smile:



Karackle said:


> So I looked in on my brigittae after work, and I definitely have a few that are starting to show the nice red color. My camera batteries died before I could get a good picture, but I got a couple that show the color quite well:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mine don't look anything like that! Their ich is gone. Got it really fast so that's not a problem.

I'm beginning to wonder if they're not coloring up because they don't have a black bottom or background. I've thought of putting some in with my other Borasas to see if they'll color up there since I know that tank's environment works well for Borasas to color up nicely.

Karackle, what size of tank do you have yours in? What other fish are they with? I bought them thinking they'd go in my 75g, but they're so small, I'm afraid they might not do well there until they grow larger. I'm interested in knowing if you have yours mixed with other fish.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

Jackh i think you better not sell that Lotus back or Vicki might come looking for you! 

Vicki - I have mine (15 of them) in a 30g tank (with black background and substrate) in with 15 Ember tetras, 6 pygmy cories, 1 sparkling gourami and 1 bamboo shrimp, they are tiny, but the biggest thing in the tank is the filter feeding shrimp so they're pretty safe :hihi: The next biggest is the sparkling gourami but he's got a tiny mouth and has taken to schooling with ther embers...go figure....i have the strangest animals....a non-schooling sparkling gourami who schools with ember tetras and a my dog like to sit on his head instead of his bum.....what next?! :hihi: LOL :icon_lol:


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

CobraGuppy said:


> jackh, i remember reading somewhere on here that you can use a sifter thing (those stuff with mesh) to seperate the flourite from the sand.
> 
> That might help a bit.


Hand held tea strainer :thumbsup: They come with a metal tab on the front for resting on a bowl or pot, that needs to be ripped off to allow for a nice deep scoop into the sand.

Great lookin tank, Jack!


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Karackle said:


> Jackh i think you better not sell that Lotus back or Vicki might come looking for you!


Absolutely! And when I find him, I'll take all his lotus plants just to teach him to not fool with me! 



> Vicki - I have mine (15 of them) in a 30g tank (with black background and substrate)


I bet it's the black. I know they respond to dark colors. My 2.5g has a black background and substrate and is fishless right now so I think I'll put some in there. If I get a color change, then I'll know that's it.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Complexity said:


> You'd better not! :icon_eek: Mine isn't doing so hot so if your lotus grows too large, I'll buy it from you. :smile:


sounds good ill let you know. all 3 of mine are growin really fast surprisingly



jaidexl said:


> Great lookin tank, Jack!


thanks 

i put in 2 ottos before i left for the weekend and i came back to basically the same tank as before. i thought theyd make a dint in the diatom outbreak but they havent and they arent nearly as fat as the ottos in my 20g... should i do extra wc's to get rid of the diatom?

and i have to make a decision. i got a price on blue tigers and theyre out of my price range, but the yellow shrimp are definitely affordable. i could get 10 yellows at $3 a peice, or i cuold get 15 blood red rcs at $2 a peice. i cant keep them together cuz theyll mix, so what should i get? im kinda leanin towards the yellows just cuz theyre so different, but they blood red cherries look really cool too.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'd say get whichever shrimp you really like. Given that they'll breed, 10 vs 15 really doesn't matter. I prefer red because I just like the color, but if yellow is your thing, then go for it!

I think my lotus may have been hurt in transit. As I mentioned before, the roots came off which was my first sign that things were not going well. But it does have a baby plant attached. It seems to be doing okay, but it's still very tiny.

The main lotus plant is putting out some new, albeit tiny, leaves. So it appears to be on the road to recovery. I don't know how long it'll take before it grows large enough to see (it's nestled between rocks), but at least it's not dead.

Still, if you're going to get rid of one of yours, I'll take it. It's better that I get it directly from you than for you to get a low resell price from Fish Ranch, only for me to come in and buy it for a higher price. Makes no sense.

I never did go to Fish Ranch to see if they have any ottos so if you do decide to sell it to me, we could meet there. If you decide to keep it, no problem.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya that all makes sense. 

wow should tell you this. i was there the other day and i traded in:

10 harlequin rasboras
~20 stem clippings of L. repens regular and rubin
~15 small needle leaf java fern plantlets
~golfball size portion of java moss
"sword" plant, i think its more of a terrestrial plant 

and they guy wanted to give me $15...i said woooow there buddy. he was like "you have about 12 stems and then the 10 fish" so i kindly reminded him that there were more like 20 stems, 10 fish and all the other crap, so he gave me $20 store credit...

i dont think ill ever try that again. id much rather sell crap and make some money than get ripped off. it really pissed me off. imo, i should have made atleast $25 or more on that deal. if the fish and stems were just a buck a peice, id already be bankin $20, and then id add the jf plantlets for about a dollar a peice also and a dollar or two for the java moss. the other crappy plant id gladly give away. if i had "charged" $1 for everything, id be at about $35, but no, he wanted to give me $15...


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I'm not surprised. When you're selling to them, you're selling at wholesale prices. You're competing with growers who grow in mass quantities and sell very cheaply.

When you sell to others, you're working at retail prices. Okay, a bit lower than retail, but you're in that same market. You're not competing with growers, but with LFS and online sellers.

This is why I said I'd rather buy directly from you than to have you sell it to them for cheap only for me to buy it from them at full retail. I can pay you more than they will while you can sell it for less than they would. We both win!

Whenever you have plants to sell, let me know. I don't have a lot of need right now, but you never know. You might have something that will fit a spot better than what I have now. Plus, I need to start figuring out a scape for my 29g that will replace my 20L. I have NO scape for that tank! Well, except for my "wow, it survived!" type of scape! :icon_lol:


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ya that makes sense, still i was pissed.

ill let you know. the way my ludwigia grows ill probably have some stems fairly soon and i could probably find a couple corkscrew vals in the forest to pull out also lol.


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Not sure I want the vals unless they're so twisted that they are more like contortionist vals. I have some of those and wouldn't mind more.

Which kind of ludwigia do you have? I might be interested in that.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

regular and rubin, but idk which is which, theyre all pretty red imo. i cant remember which ones leaf is smaller and some of the leaves are noticeably smaller than the others.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i realy wanna get 2 or 3 preacox rainbows, i think theyre so pretty. i wanna put them in my 20, but im afraid theyll eat all my rcs. thinkin i could transfer all my rcs into the 16 and then only have amano shrimp in the 20. id also like to add some furcatas to the 20. what do yall think?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

i added like 35 rcs to the 16 along with 10 galaxy rasboras. i got a pair of furcatas and a pair of gurtrudae for the 20 and wow... i think ill take the furcatas back tomorrow and get like 5 more gurtrudae...these things are so freakin cool lookin. the male goes around the tank flaring at the threadfins and the furcatas and he is gorgeous. the link has pics of them. mine is exactly colored like that, he colored up imediately. only mine has red fins instead of yellow. all the new fish were darting around the tank too quick to get pics sorry


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

the only pic i could get of my new gurtrudae




is this flame moss?




is this ich??? 




an otto in my other tank has a similar spot on his nose. if it is ich, how do i treat it? will it kill all my fish?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes it is flame moss, and the stuff on the oto looks like fungus


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

how do i treat it?


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

ich problems over

bump anyone?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

In the 1st post the pictures showed luscious plant growth. Are using ferts or/and co2?

What is the red plant on the left?


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

Thats a great setup. I'm working with a similar tank, hope mine looks half as nice as yours when I find time to get it all together.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

Hilde said:


> In the 1st post the pictures showed luscious plant growth. Are using ferts or/and co2?
> 
> What is the red plant on the left?


nope, just the 2 small desk lamps a little under 9 hrs a day and DIY co2 lol. im pretty pleased with the growth, i think in a few more weeks with the same growth the moss with look really natural, or at least i hope lol



Wicket_lfe said:


> Thats a great setup. I'm working with a similar tank, hope mine looks half as nice as yours when I find time to get it all together.


wow well thanks. well if you mean what you said, if i can do it anyone can cuz im a noob lol.


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## Wicket_lfe (Aug 21, 2008)

haha, I meant it. I'm slightly worried about how I will aquascape. I plan on a simple FG, MG, BG with driftwood in the slightly off center. My tank is larger, 20X21X30, but its great to see yours, aren't many planted cubes to check out. :red_mouth


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## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey, Jack, how did your tanks do with Ike? Did you lose power?

I bought a beautiful, huge red tiger lotus from Fish Ranch about a couple of days before Ike hit. Then went without power for over a week. Fortunately, the lotus didn't seem to suffer much. So now I have this huge lotus with a number of baby lotus plants I can give to others when they grow up.

Glad to hear your ottos are okay. When I went there, they were out, but were getting some in the Thursday right before Ike hit. I was going to go back to get a number of fish, but Ike kind of changed those plans. I hope to go back in a week or so, but I'm also getting really close to moving time so I might have to wait before getting any new fish since I'll need my extra tanks to hold fish while my tanks are being moved to my house.


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## jackh (Jul 2, 2008)

sry its been forever guys. the moss has basically expoded and taken over the tank lol. im moving in a couple months and i needa start tearing down both of my tanks though. i will have a thread up with plants for sale soon though so check the f/s section. the needle leaf is an awesome plant and this christmas moss is even cooler. the rcs sure love it! the tiger lotus are also huge.


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