# Shrimp dying in front of me - advice needed



## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

I have had my 10 red cherries for 6 days.

They were super happy and busy.

I just did the first water change and added 3 plants. I thought I would add plants while doing water change to cause less stress.

Within an hour one started to behave wierd, and dropped to the bottom of the tank. I was hoping it was going to molt.

Now more are on the bottom and dying. 

I did a 5 litre water change, my tank is 30 litre. Treated the water as per instructions. Didnt use water from hot tap, brought temp up by leaving bucket in a bath. Temp was fine.

I rinsed the plants in the water I took for the water change, should I have rinsed these under the tap for ages?

I checked nitrate before and after water change, before they started dying, and these were fine. I have just checked PH and that is ok too.

So I took out the plants and just did another 5 litre water change, I also put the pump on full to move the water round.

I totally suspect the plants. Is there anything I can do, a larger water change?

3 are on their backs, the rest are pretty still and two are fine.

Any advice would be appreciated - I'm gutted right now


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## rreekers (Feb 3, 2012)

Give us actually numbers .. not "fine"
Ammonia?
Nitrates?
Nitrites?
Ph?
Tank temp? 
How long has the tank been set up?
What brand water conditioner? 
Test strips or liquid test? 
Was there a chance any chemical or contaminant was on you hands?


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

rreekers said:


> Give us actually numbers .. not "fine"
> Ammonia?
> Nitrates?
> Nitrites?
> ...


Agreed because sometimes what is "fine" really isn't. However, your plants may have pesticides or some kind of ferts that's harming the shrimp.....in which case I would immediately go and buy Sea Chem Purigen and run it in your filter as well as pouring some seachem prime in there. Also do a large water change before you add prime into the tank.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Ammonia - 0

Nitrate - Less than 7 (it suggests this can go up to 50 before a water change is needed)

PH - 7.5

Liquid tests from Nutrafin

Tank temp is about 76F

Tank has been set up for 3 weeks and cycled.

Water conditioner is API Stress coat.

I'll do nitrites now, thanks for helping


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

Treated the tap water per whose instructions?

Does your tap water source exhibit chlorine, chloromines, heavy metals?

Did you test the tds of the original tank water versus the new water?

Was your tank ever mineralized or adjusted for kh/gh to begin with? Having them live for less than a week isn't any mark of success, while their deaths may have occurred within the next 24-48 hours if none of what was forementioned in my post was considered nor addressed. In fairness by assuming the plant or water change was the cause of death, you may even consider the possibility that the tank was not an ideal setup to begin with.

Being super busy for several days doesn't imply that they would be indefinitely without attending to their needs and requirements for survival.

Post more information if you require assistance.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

You just 'rinsed' the plants in water??? I quarantine all my plants for probably a week or so before they go into the tanks and they get either a bleach dip (19 parts water to one part bleach, only if the plants can tolerate it, some can't) or an Alum bath or a bath in potassium pomegranate. Then they sit in dechlorinated water (heavily dechlorinated at that) for 5-7 days with water being changed out every other day. If they just started doing this when you added the plants that would be my first guess and I'd get those plants out of there as soon as possible and quarantine them and do another water change to be on the safe side. All the water changes are going to stress them though, just so you know.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

The nitrite tested ok according to my test kit, ever so slightly pink, so around 0.1 on the Nutrafin chart that comes with it.

I washed and rinsed my hands before I started.

Thanks bananariot, all the shops are closed now : /

I treated the water according to the instructions on the bottle.

I do not know if the water contains these things and do not have a tds meter (yet).

No the tank wasn't mineralized or adjusted for kh/gh.

Thanks ravensgate, I hadn't read about this level of quarantine for new plants. I will read more on it and practice this in the future.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Quarantining plants is just an absolute must to me. I got a batch of plants in not too long ago full of bugs, critters, worms and about 50 baby pest snails. None of which I wanted in my tank. And then there is always the concern with pesticides. It's kinda scary adding new plants if you ask me. But I love the look of live plants so I just try to be as safe as I can. Hope you can get everything sorted out!


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

I would definitely at least soak the plants in some water for a couple of days. There were a couple of articles here on the forum about plants killing shrimp because the farms they were raised on had used pesticides. I think I can dig them up if you'd like.


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## rreekers (Feb 3, 2012)

If nitrites are showing up at all.. it can be a sign that the tanks not fully cycled.. how did you cycle it?

I would do a large water change 50+% it will cause stress but stress is better than death

Sent from my SPH-M820-BST using Tapatalk 2


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Treated the water according to the instructions on the bottle of what? 3 weeks is a pretty short cycle. Shrimp are more sensitive than most fish, so they will be the first to go during an ammonia or nitrite spike.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

The poster has already stated they used API Stress Coat.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Yeah Nitrites and ammonia are extremely deadly to shrimp. So there's something amiss if you got nitrites......


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Thanks ravensgate, I will read about it 

Thechiba, that would be much appreciated, thankyou.

rreekers, I cycled my tank with a baby snail, some marimo balls and some frogbit and I added some API Stress Zyme twice to help boost the process. I let this run for 2 weeks and tested with a nutrafin mini master test kits. There was no ammonia or nitrites and some nitrates (7.5 on their scale, 50 needing a water change).

I've done a 50% water change, thank you so much for your advice. I will report back in the morning.

livingword, hiya, I used API Stress Coat.

I know that I am new to shrimp keeping, but they seemed fine to me, until I did this water change and added the 3 plants, within an hour of that, things started to go wrong.

So far none have died, and the one that looked the closest, is a bit more active.

Hopefully they will all pull through as they all rock


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Unfortunately, your tank isn't cycled if you're seeing Nitrite.

A "baby snail" definitely doesn't produce enough waste to cycle a 30 litre/8 gallon tank. Not even for ten Cherry Shrimp.

If you can't rehome those shrimp until your tank is cycled, definitely do massive water changes, as previously recommended.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Since it started when the plants were added, it could have been something on the plants too.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Here is what you find written about API Stresscoat:

http://www.petco.com/product/2896/API-Stress-Coat-Aquarium-Water-Conditioner.aspx

Water conditioner with healing power of Aloe Vera
Replaces the natural protective slime coating fish need in times of stress
*Removes chlorine, neutralizes chloramines, and detoxifies heavy metals*
Helps to heal skin wounds and torn fins
Scientifically proven to reduce fish stress by 40% and to promote regeneration of damaged tissue
Use Stress Coat whenever you are setting up an aquarium, adding or handling fish or changing water

Here is what is written about Seachem Prime:

http://www.petco.com/product/7929/Seachem-Prime.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch

Complete and concentrated conditioner for fresh and salt water *removes chlorine, chloramine, and ammonia
Detoxifies nitrite and nitrate* and provides a protective slime coat for your fish
Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water

If you read what is in bold about Ammonia, Chlorine, Chloramine and Nitrites, Prime is clearly superior. I also suspect that the Stresscoat is not treating any ammonia that is in your tap water, either independently, or in the compound Chloramine. Have you tested your tap water for ammonia?


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Here is Seachems write up on Prime:

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

What kind of Plants were they?


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Stress Coat + treats for ammonia. Says it right on the label on the front of the bottle.

http://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Phar...41174964&sr=8-3&keywords=api+stress+coat+plus

I agree that Prime is a better product but Stress Coat + (Plus) treats for ammonia and if you go by the Amazon product description so does regular Stress Coat. API's website shows no info that it removes Ammonia but AGAIN, I repeat, it's on the label right on the front of the bottle. So I don't know how much I'd trust 'copy and pasting' any of that info. I use Prime or Aquasafe with my shrimp tanks personally.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Yes, Stress Coat Plus removes Ammonia and Chloramines. But since I can't find anywhere on the internet, including API's own website, except Amazon, (who probably cut and pasted the same info from Stress Coat Plus) That regular Stress Coat removes Ammonia, I am not going to assume it does. Perhaps you could post a link or a pic of a regular Stress Coat that says it removes Ammonia on the label.


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## Willamette (Jun 19, 2012)

Something to bear in mind is that these treatments don't actually "remove" ammonia. They chemically bind it. Ammonia (NH3) is a toxic covelant compound (to fish), and ammonium (NH4) is a far less toxic ionic compound. What happens is the ammonia is bound up into ammonium, which nitrifying bacteria can still metabolize. 

Basically: H+ + NH3 → NH4+

NH3 is a chemically stable substance...only way to actually remove it is to chemically metabolize it with bacteria...and usually thats exactly what happens. 

This is why different tests can have different results...some are biased more or less towards NH3 or NH4.

So, binding this stuff up is a good stop gap measure...but not a permanent solution. If something should change in the water chemistry before the cultures can metabolize all that NH4 that can cause a reversal of that ionic bonding effect, a bunch of NH3 could wind up back in the water.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

livingword26 said:


> Yes, Stress Coat Plus removes Ammonia and Chloramines. But since I can't find anywhere on the internet, including API's own website, except Amazon, (who probably cut and pasted the same info from Stress Coat Plus) That regular Stress Coat removes Ammonia, I am not going to assume it does. Perhaps you could post a link or a pic of a regular Stress Coat that says it removes Ammonia on the label.


I didn't say regular Stress Coat did. I have a bottle of both and the Stress Coat Plus is the only one that says it removes ammonia. My point was on API's website, the bottle they have shown is Stresscoat Plus and in their OWN description it does not mention removing ammonia though it is right there to be seen on the label. So I'm saying you can't trust any description apparently if API can't even put it on their own site. I used Stress Coat for years before a 'plus' version was even out. But now I feel a bit safer with other products. The OP didn't mention for sure if it was regular Stress Coat or the Plus so I was just bringing that up.


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## Overgrowth (Feb 19, 2012)

Jedi_Pizza said:


> Thanks ravensgate, I will read about it
> 
> Thechiba, that would be much appreciated, thankyou.
> 
> ...


IME Stress Zyme doesn't work. Use Tetra Safestart instead; it's very effective at cycling.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Point is water change + seachem prime + purigen will do lots to help the remaining. Get them when you get the chance.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

The OP is in the UK and may not have access to the same products we do in the states, like TSS. 

OP, ignore the 50ppm Nitrates = WC time. Nitrates should be less than 20 in a shrimp tank, preferably 10ppm. 

-Lisa


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## malady (Apr 6, 2012)

is the tank new?

3 weeks seems kind of fast for a cycle


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## shrimpster (Jan 31, 2012)

Seems to me problems started post-water change/plant additions. OP stated that they didn't mineralize the water when changing. This could be the stick that broke the camels' back. If the shrimps were already stressed from the nitirites/non-fully cycled tank, then non-mineralized water could have pushed them over the edge.

Then again, unkown plants added at the same time could have done it as well. Thus the reason to not change more than one thing at a time...makes it hard to pin-point reasons for things like this.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Hiya

Ok, the good news is that all my shrimp are still alive. At least one has molted and they are feeding and not showing the random twitching and laying on their sides that some were doing yesterday. Apart from a couple, they were all quite still last night.

First thing this morning I went to the best LFS in the area and took some tank water and tap water for testing.

My tank water had the slightest hint of nitrite.

The kicker is that my tap water had nitrite too. This was double tested and checked with another employee. Again, in a small amount, but nitrite is nitrite. Small like 0.1 - 0.3 ppm

So this threw me. 

So we discussed what might have happened and they said that some places sell plants that are kept in copper baths at the wholesalers, so it could have been that. I have since been back to the place I got the plants (another LFS) and explained what happened. They are emailing their supplier and will get back to me. I also returned the plants.

So maybe it was the plants, maybe it was the water change. I use API Stress Coat+ (sorry forgot the plus earlier) which removes chlorine and chloramines. It says it makes tap water safe. Not the nitrites though. Each time I added treated water, I was adding nitrite.

After more discussion at the original LFS I went to, RO water came out as the answer as to how I should maintain my water. I was advised to do this very very slowly, because of all the water changes I did yesterday. I was advised to begin tomorrow. I bought a GH&KH test kit as well as some minerals. This was explained to me and I will read up on this.

I tried to get some Prime/Purigen but there's none of this product locally.

When I got home I retested the tap water with my kit and again it showed nitrite.

Just to be clear, I used API Stress Zyme+ to boost the cycle, as well as adding some plants and a tiny bit of fish food. 

I understand that adding the plants and doing the WC at the same time has confused things, I was thinking about the stress on the shrimp at the end of the day.

@rreekers Thanks again for your advice on the WC

@livingword The plants were hornwort/Ceratophyllum demersum

@kunsthure Thanks for the nitrate values, I will use these levels

I will let you know how it goes.

PS I'll contact my water supplier and see what is normal in the UK when it comes to nitrites in the consumer water supply. I suppose it could be something at my home though. I'll check it out.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Glad it sounds like you may have figured out at least a couple of things it could have been and glad to hear the shrimp are doing better!


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## Hmoobthor (Aug 15, 2011)

it's not the water conditioner ...i use API stress coat for years and still today.

it's all about how u cycle the tank, they will die one by one slowly when tank is not mature or cycle correct...i experience this first hand mostly that they waste is not in great amount plus overfeeding.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

@overgrowth Stress Zyme worked for me, but it does appear to be more hit and miss than SafeStart (which I would use in future). Cheers 

@ravensgate Thank you and thanks again for your advice on the plants, typically I received some java moss today that I ordered last week, that went straight in a bleach bath as you recommended.

I checked levels again today, nitrite is back down to zero. I changed just 1.5 litre of RO this morning and will do the same later.

And just as importantly, the shrimp appear to be totally settled again.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Be careful, bleach can kill mosses and more sensitive plants like anacharis. I do alum dips or potassium pomegranate dips with those. You can get the PP in the form of Jungle Clear Water I think it's called, Walmart carries it. Squirt some in water, enough to turn it dark pink, then dip for 15-30 minutes. Soak in well dechlorinated water for a few days after. 

You can do a bleach dip with mosses but anything over 30-45 seconds, might turn the leaves whitish/clearish. It can come back though but it will look rough for a bit.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Ahh ok, I did them for around 2.5 mins :s

Hopefully they will make it, if not I'll buy some more..

So much to learn 

For future reference, which method would best deal with a plant that had been exposed to a copper-containing dip?

Cheers


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

It probably depends on the plant. Like I said, some are too sensitive for bleach. I just got in a ton of mosses yesterday and did an Alum dip for 3-4 hours to kill off snails and other microscopic critters. YOu can actually leave them in an alum dip for 2-3 days. Alum is used for pickling and can be found in any grocery store in the spices or baking aisle. Once I'm done with that dip, I let them chill out in dechlorinated water after a good rinse under the tap. Then I do my potassium pomegranate dip for 30 minutes. Another rinse and back into dechlorinated water. Them I let them sit for a few days. If I see anything moving around in there, I do the same alum dip, pp dip regimen again. If it's a plant that handles bleach well, I leave them in for 2-3 minutes, then put them in tap water with a pretty big overdose of dechlorinator to kill the bleach. I think bleach would probably be your best bet to get rid of copper dips but I'm not positive on that so hopefully someone else will chime in. I honestly wouldn't hesitate to use some Organic Veggie Wash on them that's supposed to remove pesticides. Then rinse, then do a bleach dip or one of the other dips for more sensitive plants.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

That's really helpful information and I will add it to my evernote fishtank notes, thankyou


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

I'm still learning too....this shrimp stuff seems to be never ending as far as information goes!


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

You don't need to do such an elaborate process with new plants. Soak in potassium permanganate (I have no idea what brand names it's under in the UK, but Amazon sells it as Jungle Clear Water) for 15-20 minutes. Then soak in dechlorinated water for about 20 minutes and you're set. I've never had critters survive the PP. 

-Lisa


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Well, Lisa, I have. I actually had some pest snails survive BOTH an alum bath AND a PP bath a couple of weeks ago as well as some nematodes. I'm sorry but if I see bugs on plants I get in here they go into serious 'kill everything' quarantine. And PP actually didn't really do much to some of the pest snails but just a sprinkle of alum and they were deader than a doornail in under minute. A lot of folks have great luck with PP alone or bleach. I personally like a little overkill since I get quite sick of vacuuming out bugs and squishing snails I didn't invite into my tank. I'm not doing both those dips because I have nothing better to do with my time.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

You must be getting some seriously infected plants! Someone here said they quarantine their plants for weeks. I got slack about dipping and that's how I got my pest snails. Pest snails are like STDs. 

-Lisa


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

They are TOTALLY like STDs. LOL! The gift that KEEPS ON GIVING! HAHAHA! I actually decided to save a few of the scragglers yesterday. Saved a couple of pest ramshorn looking things and two that may be MTS...may be pond snails. Put them in my betta tank because he is an avid hunter. Plus I do 100% cleans on those every two weeks so I figure they'll never get out of hand...heck they may not even make it a week. But yeah, I got some plants a few weeks ago that had tons of crap I didn't want. I did two rounds of alum dip for a few hours each and one PP dip then let them sit for about 3 days before putting them in the shrimp tank. I even dunk them in really hot tap water for a few minutes then move them back to cold. It's a wonder I haven't lost every plant I've gotten in! But sure enough, a week later there goes a bladder snail across my plants. Tough bugger he was. Right now I'm waiting to set up a new tank so quarantining plants for a few weeks is A-ok for me. Most of the time I lack the patience though. That's where I wound up with a big bug problem in my last tank. Of course, maybe I'm doing the alum too light or the PP too light. I can just sprinkle some alum in and watch the snails die but nematodes, seed shrimp, and other suckers take a LOT longer to die. The good thing is, I have found zero damage to my plants from the alum. I haven't used PP enough to tell. It's just a big oxidizer....I trust the alum more to get rid of critters. And after killing quite a bit of moss with bleach I have decided only REALLY tough looking stuff gets bleach. Unfortunately, I'm not educated enough with aquarium plants to know what will make it and what won't. Java ferns, anubias, grass, amazon swords, that sort of stuff gets bleach. But some of these little fragile things I'm getting in I'm hesitant about using it on.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

(Sorry for the hijack, OP)

That's why I don't use bleach. PP, AFAIK, is safe for all plants. 

MTS look like ice cream cones and bladder/pond snails look like footballs. 

-Lisa


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Snails, copepods, seed shrimp, round worms......are the herpies of sns.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

For what it's worth, no planaria took my MTS population down to practically nothing. I only saw 1-2 for about week. I see a couple more every so often, but I really don't see them at all anymore. Not like before, anyway.

And I'd stick to Alum and PP + Quarantine for a few days if nothing else. Some plants can stand a salt dip, some cannot. And I'm pretty sure you can figure out what happens with snails+salt.


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## Overgrowth (Feb 19, 2012)

Kunsthure said:


> You don't need to do such an elaborate process with new plants. Soak in potassium permanganate (I have no idea what brand names it's under in the UK, but Amazon sells it as Jungle Clear Water) for 15-20 minutes. Then soak in dechlorinated water for about 20 minutes and you're set. I've never had critters survive the PP.
> 
> -Lisa


Once I tried to get rid of copepods in my 2.5G so I tried Jungle Clear Water to get rid of them (of course there was nothing else in the tank). At first I tried a little bit, but they didn't die. Then I kept adding more until I eventually used the whole bottle, but they still didn't die! Maybe it was just that I bought a bad bottle (I asked you about my liquid turning orange in contact with water, which I think you said is a sign that PP no longer works when it turns orange).


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Many foreign countries use pesticides on their plants which are known to kill shrimp - it's been observed by many forum goers here I believe. 

That may not be your problem, but always be weary if you got your plants from asia or something.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

No worries about the hijack, it's very interesting to read.

As mentioned already, I got some Java Moss yesterday, from that big auction site. After Sunday's scare, I decided to message the seller and ask if they knew if the moss had been anywhere near a copper-containing solution.

"All plants are treated with a mild insecticide before entering the UK , this is a legal requirement, and it may contain copper. we always advise customers to thoroughly rinse (in several water changes) their plants before adding to the tank to remove any traces that remain."

Please note that this was not from where I bought the hornwort, that potentially started this thread off, but I thought I would share as it reiterates what Chlorophile and others have said about plant nasties vs shrimp health. 

I would guess this would apply to US imports too.


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

I doubt the US Customs takes the time to dip plants. I think they just deny entry for suspicious plants. That's why I highly discourage people from buying their plants from Asia. 

-Lisa


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## Kunsthure (Aug 2, 2010)

> Please note that this was not from where I bought the hornwort


Yay!! Someone who uses proper grammar with prepositions! :bounce: 

-Lisa


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Jedi_Pizza said:


> No worries about the hijack, it's very interesting to read.
> 
> As mentioned already, I got some Java Moss yesterday, from that big auction site. After Sunday's scare, I decided to message the seller and ask if they knew if the moss had been anywhere near a copper-containing solution.
> 
> ...


Yea, there was a thread a while back about this - i think copper was actually the least of our worries, there were 5 or 6 chemicals that were all unsafe for shrimp.


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Kunsthure said:


> Yay!! Someone who uses proper grammar with prepositions! :bounce:
> 
> -Lisa


Haha, I got lucky with that sentence I think - I had to google to see what a preposition is


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

Overgrowth said:


> Once I tried to get rid of copepods in my 2.5G so I tried Jungle Clear Water to get rid of them (of course there was nothing else in the tank). At first I tried a little bit, but they didn't die. Then I kept adding more until I eventually used the whole bottle, but they still didn't die! Maybe it was just that I bought a bad bottle (I asked you about my liquid turning orange in contact with water, which I think you said is a sign that PP no longer works when it turns orange).


If your PP is orange then it may have been precipitated through some other contact with chemicals.....so it may be less effective. 

I've dipped all my plants in PP for 20 minutes and no sign of any intruders. Only one has gotten past my guard and that's nematodes. Annoying ugly creatures....fish would get rid of it in a heartbeat, but I got SSS CRS in the tank and every baby counts....won't even dose fenbendazole....


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## deleted_user_17 (Jun 14, 2012)

Chlorophile said:


> Yea, there was a thread a while back about this - i think copper was actually the least of our worries, there were 5 or 6 chemicals that were all unsafe for shrimp.


Nice one, I'll have a search for it. 

I've ordered some potassium permanganate today. I'll adopt that method, followed by a good soak. My tank is quite small, so there won't be loads of plants in there anyway.


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## ravensgate (May 24, 2012)

Bananariot said:


> If your PP is orange then it may have been precipitated through some other contact with chemicals.....so it may be less effective.
> 
> .


It turns orange when it comes in contact with dechlorinator. Just discovered that the other night as a matter of fact Straight tap water, it stays purple/pink.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Prime will neutralize it entirely to disappear. What I do is put PP in my designated gallon jar till the water is pinky purple. Then add plantizzles. Let them soak for about 30 minutes. I add prime, and rinse the jar/plants. Sometimes I do it twice if I SEE snails. After that, I clean the jar with water, add dechlorinator and let the plants sit for a couple of days at least.


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