# Alternative to Flourish Excel?



## retoid

I have been using excel for some time now and really like how it works.
On the other hand it is pretty expensive. Which is why I will probably eventually setup my pressurized co2 system to service my two other tanks. But also kinda expensive at this point.

I am curious if any other company makes a solution like Flourish Excel and offers it cheaper?

I've found several liquid carbon products used with hydroponics but most places do not list the ingredients. I want to be sure they isnt anything harmful added like copper. Actually I didnt find several solutions but this one pops up in my searches alot.
http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=LCG420
Worms Way, Doc's Carbon Grow

I'd appreciate any help I can get on the matter.

Thanks


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## epicfish

Ingredients:
Simple Carbohydrates.... 2500 PPM
Simple Proteins....750 PPM
Phospholipids....2500 PPM
NAA....3000 PPM
Kinetin....300 PPM

Hm....I gotta think about this a bit more. Anyone with any other thoughts?


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## aquanut415

until you have a more specific list of ingredients, its pretty much anyones guess.

and what are they saying NAA is? napthalene acetic acid? or ammonium salt? national apartment association?

the product is not a fert, so the label is wack.


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## retoid

Here is some interesting information on Co2.

Phase Diagram of Carbon Dioxide
The phase diagram of CO2 has some common features with that of water: sublimation curve, vaporization curve, triple point, critical temperature and pressure. Of course, the P and T values of are unique to carbon dioxide. The phase diagrams of water and carbon dioxide are compared here.

The triple point of carbon dioxide occure at a pressure of 5.2 atm (3952 torr) and 216.6 K (-56.4oC). At temperature of 197.5 K (-78.5oC), the vapor pressure of solid carbon dioxide is 1 atm (760 torr). At this pressure, the liquid phase is not stable, the solid simply sublimates. Thus solid carbon dioxide is called dry ice, because it does not go through a liquid state in its phase transition at room pressure.

The critical temperature for carbon dioxide is 31.1°C, and the critical pressure is 73 atm. Above the critical temeprature, the fluid is called super-critical fluid.

To be more precise, the various point of the phase diagram are further descibed below. In the phase diagram of (a) H2O and (b) CO2, the axes are not drawn to scale. In (a), for water, note the triple point A (0.0098°C, 4.58 torr), the normal melting (or freezing) point B (0°C, 1 atm), the normal boiling point C (100°C, 1 atm), and the critical point D (374.4°C, 217.7 atm). In (b), for carbon dioxide, note the triple point X(-56.4°C, 5.11 atm), the normal sublimation point Y(-78.5°C, 1 atm), and the critical point Z (31.1°C, 73.0 atm).

http://scifun.chem.wisc.edu/chemweek/CO2/CO2.html

I guess creating liquid carbon dioxide is out of the question for me right now hehe.

Does anyone know what exactly Flourish Excel is and why/how it creates CO2?


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## mrbelvedere

It doesn't create CO2 at all. And the active ingredient is glutaraldehyde.

Check www.seachem.com

They have a detailed description of the product.


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## plantbrain

It does decompose into CO2..........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## retoid

Ok, so does any other company offer such a mixture like Flourish Excel and sell it cheaper?


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## mrbelvedere

plantbrain said:


> It does decompose into CO2..........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


So will I when I buy the farm.  , but I'm not CO2.



I've seen a few knockoffs. I've also heard of people procuring glutaraldehyde and simply using that.


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## retoid

Found this on Wiki.

A polymerized isomer of glutaraldehyde trademarked as polycycloglutaracetal by Seachem Laboratories, Inc. is the active ingredient in a product called Flourish Excel, a fertilizer for aquatic plants. It is claimed that it provides a bioavailable source of carbon for higher plants that is not available to algae. Though not marketed as such due to federal regulations, the biocidal effect of glutaraldehyde kills most algae at concentrations of 0.5 - 5.0 ppm. These levels are not harmful to most aquatic fauna and flora. Adverse reactions have been observed by some aquarists at these concentrations in some aquatic mosses, liverworts, and vascular plants.


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## plantbrain

mrbelvedere said:


> So will I when I buy the farm.  , but I'm not CO2.


It decomposes a lot faster than you, has about 11 hour 1/2 life.
Thus like I said, it does supply CO2, and at a significant rate.

It grows plants much faster than without, so the source is from somewhere obviously...........and to increase the growth rates that much for asuch a wide range of plants, => CO2 supply.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquanut415

so how does it provide co2 without impacting pH?


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## plantbrain

It's a balanced reaction pH wise and where it occurs is another issue why it does not impact pH to a large degree.
SeaChem does not even know how that occurs, but I do.
Nothing like good old 14C.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## sandiegoryu

Oh. So flourish excel IS CO2. Just less of it. Right? But I bet the algae fighting powers come from the not yet decomposed glutarahyde.

And does that mean dosing it at night would help out the plants more than dosing it in the morning?


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## swylie

plantbrain said:


> It's a balanced reaction pH wise and where it occurs is another issue why it does not impact pH to a large degree.
> SeaChem does not even know how that occurs, but I do.
> Nothing like good old 14C.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


You isotopically labeled _what_ now? :icon_wink


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## Rex Grigg

Flourish Excel is NOT CO2.


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## Momotaro

> I've also heard of people procuring glutaraldehyde and simply using that


I think I'd be pretty leery about that one. Glutaraldehyde is pretty wicked stuff. Start dosing the wrong index in the wrong amount and I'd imagine a world of trouble. 

Two asides:

I have wondered about the relationship between ich and Excel. I wonder if aquariums in which Excel is dose have a lesser occurrence of ich, as glutaraldehyde is a close relative of formaldehyde and formalin.

Belvedere: The final product of decomposition is water and ammonia. So think of your ultimate physical self as a pool of water prone to a potential outbreak of green water instead of a wisp of gas. :icon_wink


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## swylie

mrbelvedere said:


> I've also heard of people procuring glutaraldehyde and simply using that.


Seachem is evasive about the contents of Excel. Their MSDS clearly states that the only _toxic_ component is glutaraldehyde, but the bottle and their CS reps claim that it also contains some polymer of glutaraldehyde that they call polycyclogultaracetal and that Excel is not simply glutaraldehyde.

Does Excel actually contain any glutaraldehyde? Is their MSDS honest, and is it completely honest? I'm not familiar with the legal implications of failing to list chemicals on an MSDS, but I suspect that they intentionally chose to leave off polycyclogultaracetal to protect their trade secrets and possibly because they'd have to register a new chemical with some agency and go through all kinds of experiments to determine safety, tons of paperwork, etc.

Their web site has an article that discusses how they really don't know how Excel is metabolized by plants. They suggest that it's either metabolized as a photosynthetic intermediate or that the plant degrades it into CO2, which means they have no clue. That article has an illustration of polycycloglutaracetal, although it only shows the carbon backbone and is missing the functional groups. As illustrated, they're implying that Excel is a monomer, but once again, they're being evasive. Trade secrets...

I should ask my dad to pass a sample of Excel through his GC-MS. Not sure how his setup would deal with novel chemicals, though...


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## Momotaro

> Is their MSDS honest, and is it completely honest?


Is the Material Safety Data Sheet honest? 

Well, I'd say that since OSHA has the ability to strike more fear into our hearts than the IRS, Seachem is probably dead on with their MSDS. Failure to do so would be pretty fool-hardy on their part and probably cost them more in fines than Excel can turn in profit.

Trade secret? Sounds about right to me.....:icon_wink 


Mike


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## epicfish

swylie said:


> I should ask my dad to pass a sample of Excel through his GC-MS. Not sure how his setup would deal with novel chemicals, though...


I've done GC-MS along with a few other things and from a quick (10-15 minute) look through the spectra, it's a _tad_ bit more complicated than that. 

Not sure about the legal implications of trying to figure out what's in it, but I don't plan to be making this and selling it to the public...just a curious mind, that's all.


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## swylie

epicfish said:


> I've done GC-MS along with a few other things and from a quick (10-15 minute) look through the spectra, it's a _tad_ bit more complicated than that.
> 
> Not sure about the legal implications of trying to figure out what's in it, but I don't plan to be making this and selling it to the public...just a curious mind, that's all.


Yeah, me too. More than anything I'd like to know how it feeds into the plants' metabolic pathways and how that might differ from algae.


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## mrbelvedere

Momotaro said:


> I think I'd be pretty leery about that one. Glutaraldehyde is pretty wicked stuff. Start dosing the wrong index in the wrong amount and I'd imagine a world of trouble.
> 
> Two asides:
> 
> I have wondered about the relationship between ich and Excel. I wonder if aquariums in which Excel is dose have a lesser occurrence of ich, as glutaraldehyde is a close relative of formaldehyde and formalin.
> 
> Belvedere: The final product of decomposition is water and ammonia. So think of your ultimate physical self as a pool of water prone to a potential outbreak of green water instead of a wisp of gas. :icon_wink


I believe it was Dennis who actually used glutaraldehyde in lieu of Excel. Not sure on the details, but I'm sure if he sees this thread he will chime in. 

Not to be morbid, but I will give off a lot of gases, correct?


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## riva

mrbelvedere said:


> I will give off a lot of gases, correct?


If you're anything like me you will.


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## plantbrain

swylie said:


> Yeah, me too. More than anything I'd like to know how it feeds into the plants' metabolic pathways and how that might differ from algae.


Hence why I use 14C to answer such questions.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## aquanut415

TOm.. seachem said at the AGA if anyone did this they would buy the results... why not sell the info, or at least make it available?


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## swylie

plantbrain said:


> Hence why I use 14C to answer such questions.


Huh. I didn't realize you were serious because I didn't realize you had those kind of resources available. Are you a postdoc or professor or something like that? Anyway, care to share what you've learned? I'd be interested in both the methodology and the results, and I suspect that a number of other people around here would be interested too. Once again, I'm mostly just curious. The organic synthetic lab in my kitchen isn't going to be turning out any black-market Excel any time soon (as long as my landlady has anything to say about it.) I've been out of the lab for too long... :icon_sad:


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## plantbrain

aquanut415 said:


> TOm.. seachem said at the AGA if anyone did this they would buy the results... why not sell the info, or at least make it available?


*I am* working with SeaChem on this project :hihi: 
I'll be rather cryptic as well, but we both have our reasons.
Namely safety related issues.

14C is not used to make the product, just to see trace where the carbon goes and how it interacts. 

I am using it to answer the mechanism of action for killing Hydrilla and algae.
I will also use another species that is enhanced by the product.

Yes, I know everything that is in it, but part of the deal is not to disclose it.
So don't ask. 

As far as saving cost, it's actually a very very good deal from SeaChem. I can make the stuff myself, but I'm not interested. SeaChem knows that. Some clown will kill themselves, get irrepritable eye damage, etc if they try to make it. It's not baking soda:icon_idea 
It can be very toxic stuff, folks have killed fish with it and melted plants when they did not follow the label.

Use as labeled.
That is my advice. Don't breath it either. It'll burn your lungs, eye and mouth out if you get it in there. 

Get a 4 liter jug from Big Al's if you are concerned about cost effective amounts. You can also order from Seachem a 20 liter pale etc.

These are good prices for what Seachem has done vs if you tried to make it.
I know, I've looked.

If you wanna be cheaper, use CO2 gas.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## swylie

plantbrain said:


> *I am* working with SeaChem on this project :hihi:


I look forward to Seachem getting a patent so that you can publish (and discuss) your work.


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## Crob5965

retoid said:


> I have been using excel for some time now and really like how it works.
> On the other hand it is pretty expensive. Which is why I will probably eventually setup my pressurized co2 system to service my two other tanks. But also kinda expensive at this point.
> 
> I am curious if any other company makes a solution like Flourish Excel and offers it cheaper?
> 
> I've found several liquid carbon products used with hydroponics but most places do not list the ingredients. I want to be sure they isnt anything harmful added like copper. Actually I didnt find several solutions but this one pops up in my searches alot.
> http://www.wormsway.com/detail.asp?sku=LCG420
> Worms Way, Doc's Carbon Grow
> 
> I'd appreciate any help I can get on the matter.
> 
> Thanks


glutaraldehyde is the ingredient in flourish I use Metricide 28


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## Darkblade48

Crob5965 said:


> glutaraldehyde is the ingredient in flourish I use Metricide 28


Holy thread revival, Batman!


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## Seattle_Aquarist

lol, when I saw Rex Grigg at the beginning of this thread I thought he had become active again....then I looked at the date! Holy dustball Batman!


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## Crob5965

Darkblade48 said:


> Holy thread revival, Batman!


 Thanks


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