# How many Bolivian rams in a 55



## ArgenisP (May 14, 2018)

Hello, 
I have a 55 gallon planted tank with 2 big pieces of driftwood and a fair amount of hiding places/territories. 

I was wondering if I can add 3 Bolivian rams to the 3 that I bought last week (total of 6). I’m not sure of the gender but I think I either have 2 males 1 female or 2 females and 1 male. 

The other fish are 10 neons, six panda cories, one twig catfish, and one otocat.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ArgenisP said:


> Hello,
> I have a 55 gallon planted tank with 2 big pieces of driftwood and a fair amount of hiding places/territories.
> 
> I was wondering if I can add 3 Bolivian rams to the 3 that I bought last week (total of 6). I’m not sure of the gender but I think I either have 2 males 1 female or 2 females and 1 male.
> ...


I dont think my results were typical, but I think they show what's possible. I added 6 juveniles to my 75 gallon with a pair of Angel's, and large group of bloodfins, and some other fish. Within 3 weeks one dominant homicidal male killed all 5 of the others. They were all the same size when I added them and the tank was heavily planted with several large pieces of driftwood. Normally problems arise when a pair forms and wants to breed, but at least you have the pair... there are always exceptions, but I think 2 pairs would be best case scenario long term in a 4 foot tank. Of course you're best chance at getting 2 pair is buy a larger group and remove the excluded fish. Do you have another tank that the outcasts could be moved into?


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## ArgenisP (May 14, 2018)

Sorry to hear that, I bet that the ram/angel convo looked awesome. 

I do have other tanks but they aren’t set up/cycle. 

I believe I have two that paired up and then one outcast. I was thinking about my options and it seems like my possible solutions are solutions:
1. Remove the outcast and take take it back to the fish store.
2. Add 1 more, but I’m worried that if I add a single one it will get jump by the 3 already in the tank


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

I didn't have much luck with multiple males either. I also have one very large dominant male who's a problem child. He's fine with other fish. Even other blue and gold rams. A little chasing of others out of his territory at the front of the tank at times but all relatively minor. But he absolutely WILL NOT tolerate any other Bolivian in the same tank. Even females. I had to separate him from the two females that I have because he was just relentless in attacking them. The females get along great together other than maybe a few squabbles food now and then.

Odd thing is that he started out as the more timid one and was bullied a little by another male that I got at the same time (which I ended up having to return). At some point he apparently said "Enough of this crap!" and turned into a demon.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Why spoil a good thing? I would return the outcast as I have never been successful with multiple males either.


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## ArgenisP (May 14, 2018)

How can I tell the difference between a male and a female? The only difference between my rams is that two of them have a small tube behind their underside fin and sort of near their back fin. And then the other doesn’t have it, other than this they seem to be the same size and colors.


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## Mike A. (Jan 6, 2018)

ArgenisP said:


> How can I tell the difference between a male and a female? The only difference between my rams is that two of them have a small tube behind their underside fin and sort of near their back fin. And then the other doesn’t have it, other than this they seem to be the same size and colors.



It's kind of hard when they're younger. The "tube" typically is a little larger and more vertically oriented in the female. A little smaller and more angled back in the male. Usually that's kind of hard to see on smaller fish though.

When more mature it's fairly easy. See pics below.

Males will develop more of a forehead and more of a blunt area at the front of the face. The female will be more pointed and symmetrical. That head shape probably is the best thing that I go by when they're young. Still can be kind of hard if you're not used to looking at them. It won't be as pronounced in juvenile males but still will be there in a less defined way. 

Males will have longer and more pointed dorsal, anal, and tail fins with longer trailers. Tail fins of the female will be shorter without the trailers. Dorsal and anal fins of the female will be more rounded and just reach the start of the tail where those on the male will extend beyond that and well into the tail fin and will be more pointed at the tips. The trailers won't develop until more mature but the length and the more pointed fins usually are there to some degree even in younger fish. 

Hard to see in the pic but the first few rays of the dorsal fin in the male will tend to be quite a bit taller than the next few where just slightly taller for the female.

Also hard to see in the pic but the underside of the male from the start of the anal fin back will rise at a little more of an angle vs the female being a more gradual curve. Similar to the head shape, the rear into the tail will tend to be more symmetrical in the female.

The male will tend to be more colorful within the body (vs fins) with the orange coloring in the throat and up behind the gills. But that may not develop until older, depending on condition of the fish, mood, etc. Generally though if you see one/some that stand out in as being more colorful in that area, then that's more likely to be a male. The females typically don't color up as much in the body and if they do then it will tend to be more of a reddish belly vs in the throat/cheek. 


Male










Female


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

Nice looking Rams. All of the above is good info. I just use the anal fin. If you look at the pics the female anal fin is more rounded and the male more pointed and further back into the caudal. 


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Are those yours Mike A? They are gorgeous! I would definitely move the outcast. Depending on your scale I would be confident that 2 pairs would work in a 4 ft tank


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

At one point I had about 20 Bolivians in a 60. That was too many. I brought it down to about 10-12 and that was too many with multiple pairs spawning. Some of those fish were pretty feisty. 

I don’t like 3 or 5. Once pairs set up the bond is pretty good Structure for territory’s in the bottom area is important just like any other Cichlid. A decent size group interaction is interesting


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

mbkemp said:


> At one point I had about 20 Bolivians in a 60. That was too many. I brought it down to about 10-12 and that was too many with multiple pairs spawning. Some of those fish were pretty feisty.
> 
> I don’t like 3 or 5. Once pairs set up the bond is pretty good Structure for territory’s in the bottom area is important just like any other Cichlid. A decent size group interaction is interesting
> 
> ...


What size group do you think would work in a 4 ft tank?


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## mbkemp (Dec 15, 2016)

I think it will depend on both the fish and structure on the bottom 4 or six for sure. More is risky. Three males and one female probably not good. Three and three will establish a hierarchy and stabilize 

It also depends on the goal intended. Mine raised kids with Black Ruby barbs, Colombian Tetras, and Tiger barbs. They can’t handle cories or a pleco 


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## ArgenisP (May 14, 2018)

Mine are still juveniles so it’s somewhat hard to tell but I think I may have 2 male and a female looking at forehead shape and fins. I’ll have a better look when I get home. Is it possible to add just one more female ram? 

To be honest I’m not interested in breeding them (although I understand that’s what the rams are interested in doing) I just want them to thrive. 

Here’s pic of my tank and the territories


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## ArgenisP (May 14, 2018)

Here’s pics of all 3 rams; they’re quite difficult to sex, or even get a good picture of


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

You'll see a dominant male develop pretty quickly. Angels and Bolivian Rams are a timeless combination


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