# My Betta Spawning Diary - 3/7 UPDATE



## Lnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Nice, did you put anything for male to build his nest under? (Styrofoam cup cut out or Katapang leaf). Beautiful halfmoon !


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lnd said:


> Nice, did you put anything for male to build his nest under?  (Styrofoam cup cut out or Katapang leaf). Beautiful halfmoon !


I tried styrofoam but he wouldn't build under it at all. I did not have any leaves as well but he's a good nest builder so no worries. He's been moving the eggs daily into different areas.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

hey, cool. Plakats!

do you have infusoria/bbs/microworms handy?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

My 10g tank water is full of infusoria and I got some bbs eggs on hand. I've never tried microworms but would love to know where I can get some.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

microworms and vinegar eels are really easy to raise. I hear vinegar eels are even easier. I might have to try them one day.

check the SnS.


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## blackandyellow (Jul 1, 2009)

Spawning bettas is such a great show  

I never attempted to raise the fry but just looking at the courtship ritual and the change in temperament once the male is ready is just amazing.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, I've got danglers today. This batch is especially strong. They all stick fairly well to the bubble nest. He's an awesome dad too. He hasn't ate 1 egg/baby yet.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Today my male lost it... there's just too many kids to look after! The babies got too uncontrollable and are starting to swim horizontally (freely). I took him out. I'll try to snap some pics today.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

They've been hunting infusoria for the past 2 days but today I fed them some newly hatched BBS (baby brine shrimp). The stronger ones stuffed their stomachs full of BBS lol. There must be over 200 babies in there now that I see them clearly.


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## Lnd (Dec 28, 2008)

very nice! I just try my luck with my male again. he ate 90% of the eggs and is currently raising the remaining 20-30 lol


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lnd said:


> very nice! I just try my luck with my male again. he ate 90% of the eggs and is currently raising the remaining 20-30 lol


Lnd,

It'd be in your best interest to get a new male. Trust me... once a cannibal, always a cannibal.


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## Lnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Yea I probably will, this guy worth alot lol >< off spring of best in show betta in 2008.


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## Lnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Oh my other male.. platinum CT, wont breed and got beat up by a female. No luck with males at all lol


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah. Bettas are notorious for not being good parents. From my experience, 1 out of 5 males will become a good breeder who won't beat up the bride too badly, won't eat the eggs/fry, and will tend to the eggs properly (fanning, moving, nest maintenance).


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## Lnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Well this one idk, he moved like 40 eggs from his nest and started another nest, and ate the rest. Weird


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lnd said:


> Well this one idk, he moved like 40 eggs from his nest and started another nest, and ate the rest. Weird


Just keep an eye on him. Once the babies hatch, he may be tempted to eat them all. 

Did you feed him well before the spawning process? I like to fatten the couple up as they are courting each other. This way, they're full to start out with and helps guarantee more uneaten eggs/fry. Because once they've spawned, you can not feed them until you take them out. For the male, this is roughly 4 days without food. If you try to feed them during the time they are watching the eggs, it'll light up that hunger fuse and it's pretty much game over for that spawn. However if you have a really dedicated male, he will just ignore any food offered to him durring this time. 

Good luck with your spawn! Just keep at it. :hihi:


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

So neat. Love seeing all those babies. Hope you have a good survival rate!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Tex Gal said:


> So neat. Love seeing all those babies. Hope you have a good survival rate!


I'm sure I will. *fingers crossed* I just gotta keep the BBS hatchery on overdrive. :hihi: These little guys are surprisingly strong compared to some other batches I've raised in the past. When they hatched they hardly fell from the bubble nest. Usually it'd be a rainstorm for daddy. Not these guys.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

What are you going to do with all the babies?

I've done the 'let the dad raise the fry method' until the babies are full grown. I hear that makes the males better parents.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

mistergreen said:


> What are you going to do with all the babies?
> 
> I've done the 'let the dad raise the fry method' until the babies are full grown. I hear that makes the males better parents.


I'll most likely just give them away to anyone who wants them from our local plant club, then I'll sell the rest to anyone else or a lfs. 

I've never tried that method. I'm always too cautious of the father eating the young so I take him out after the kids start to free swim. You could be right though. Once a good dad, always a good dad.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

So I've got microworms now but, how do I feed them to the fry? I've read that you just kinda scrape the muck they're living in and mix it with a little bit of water... this still leaves all the muck in with the water mixture to get sucked up. I'm worried I may foul the tank water and kill the babies :help:. Anyone dealt with microworms before? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. 

Other then that, the babies are getting bigger already and eat 24/7. Since I haven't mastered feeding MW yet, I've been hatching BBS once a day. Talk about chores. 

Here they are:


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## Tex Gal (Mar 28, 2008)

That's a lot of spicy meatballs! What will you do with the all!!

I would just do daily water changes. That's what I did with my danio babies. Or you could put a filter on it with a sponge guard. That works too.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Leave something in the culture for a few minutes for the MW to climb up on, or scrape them off the sides of the container. Makes it a bit easier.

I kept my fry on BBS for weeks. I rotated through 2-3 BBS hatcheries, would harvest out of each one for 2 days.

Keep in mind that if you try to harvest longer from the same BBS culture, you should feed the BBS, otherwise they're so starved that the fry won't get as much nutrition from them.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Leave something in the culture for a few minutes for the MW to climb up on, or scrape them off the sides of the container. Makes it a bit easier.
> 
> I kept my fry on BBS for weeks. I rotated through 2-3 BBS hatcheries, would harvest out of each one for 2 days.
> 
> Keep in mind that if you try to harvest longer from the same BBS culture, you should feed the BBS, otherwise they're so starved that the fry won't get as much nutrition from them.


Laura,

thanks for the bit of info. I will try putting something in for the worms to climb. I've been using 2 hatcheries for bbs. I didn't know you can feed them. The ones that are left over after the second day usually die and gets tossed. What can I feed them with?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Spirulina powder or really really finely crushed flake food will work.

If you start down that road, you'll also want to do water changes so uneaten food doesn't pollute the hatcheries (which can be a pain, since you don't want to suck up the BBS...)


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

a little bit of hard boil egg yolk dissolved in a little water is often used when you don't have anything else. Don't add too much unless you plan to do daily water changes. You can throw what you don't use in the freezer for next time.

let the microworm culture grow big enough so they climb up the walls of the container. A q-tip to swipe them up is handy.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Spirulina powder or really really finely crushed flake food will work.
> 
> If you start down that road, you'll also want to do water changes so uneaten food doesn't pollute the hatcheries (which can be a pain, since you don't want to suck up the BBS...)


Wow, that's a lot of work. I think I'll stick to running 3-4 BBS hatcheries. Thanks for your help, it's greatly appreciated. :thumbsup:



mistergreen said:


> a little bit of hard boil egg yolk dissolved in a little water is often used when you don't have anything else. Don't add too much unless you plan to do daily water changes. You can throw what you don't use in the freezer for next time.
> 
> let the microworm culture grow big enough so they climb up the walls of the container. A q-tip to swipe them up is handy.


Are you talking about feeding egg yolk to the bbs or the fry? I've never used egg yolk in the past but it just sounds soo messy. 

I like the idea of scraping the sides... I may have to wait a little longer for my culture to get bigger. BTW, how long does a MW culture last before you have to mix up another batch of oatmeal/mashed potatoes?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the egg yolk isn't so bad.. A few drops of the hard boil yolk mixture to feed the bettas.

Oh, and use corn FLOUR for the MW medium next time. The smell from the oatmeal/mash is going to knock you out of your socks. A batch should last a month or 2. You'll notice the MW population stop climbing the walls.


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## whickerda (Sep 22, 2009)

update?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Update! :smile:

The fry are getting BIG! They've got veracious appitites, making feedings quite the chore. To add to it all, my Halfbeaks gave birth to 4 baby Halfbeaks. I added them to this fry tank to take advantage of the BBS. 

I have not lost a single fry, and they all seem to be eating their fair share. There are just a few runts who cant keep up with their brothers/sisters and they're the ones who stay puny. Pics:

In this shot, you can clearly tell the baby halfbeaks from the Bettas.









They tend to stay near the surface most of the time.









In this shot, you can kind of get an idea of how many mouths I'm accountable for. :help:









More updates to come..... stay tuned as usual :icon_smil.


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

Wow that's a lot of fish. Any plans for them when they get bigger?


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## Bonefish (Mar 14, 2009)

Daddy's a handsome lad. And aww, look at those happy little fry. Just wait until they all grow up and start hating each other. :hihi:


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

legomaniac89 said:


> Wow that's a lot of fish. Any plans for them when they get bigger?


I'll most likely put them up for adoption for anyone who wants one or two. You're interested right Adam? :hihi: I hope some of the males come out looking like their dad. I may be able to send some to a lfs for store credit. :biggrin:



TsuRyuu said:


> Daddy's a handsome lad. And aww, look at those happy little fry. Just wait until they all grow up and start hating each other.


I see your avatar is a Betta. I know what you mean. 

Anyone who want's one, feel free to let me know since there are so many kids.


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## Randy Lau (Mar 29, 2008)

Awesome Speedie408! Seems like you're going to have a very high survival rate!


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## legomaniac89 (Mar 16, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> I'll most likely put them up for adoption for anyone who wants one or two. You're interested right Adam? :hihi: I hope some of the males come out looking like their dad. I may be able to send some to a lfs for store credit. :biggrin:


Haha I don't know what I'd do with more bettas. Those halfbeaks are pretty sweet though. How big are the parents? Think they'd be okay in a 10g, or do they like more room to swim?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy Lau said:


> Awesome Speedie408! Seems like you're going to have a very high survival rate!


Yeah, if they keep eating the way they do and I can keep up with their appetites, I think they'll all survive. Aren't you on SFBAAPs too? I can't seem to post on that forum for the past 2 days. 



legomaniac89 said:


> Haha I don't know what I'd do with more bettas. Those halfbeaks are pretty sweet though. How big are the parents? Think they'd be okay in a 10g, or do they like more room to swim?


You guys never had Halfbeaks before at your shop? The parents stay small, 7cm max. They are livebearers and seem like they breed easily. They are a little finicky towards one another and like a little space so I'd say 4 max for a 10g. They stay only at the surface in my tank, but I've read that if it's a species only tank they'll take over the rest of the tank. I'll let you know later once they get bigger if you still want a few.


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## richy (Dec 1, 2005)

speedie408 said:


> Yeah, if they keep eating the way they do and I can keep up with their appetites, I think they'll all survive. Aren't you on SFBAAPs too? I can't seem to post on that forum for the past 2 days.


So it's not just me. I think something happened on the server end. No new posts every time I check, which is muy muy unusual. Also can't send any PM's.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

richy said:


> So it's not just me. I think something happened on the server end. No new posts every time I check, which is muy muy unusual. Also can't send any PM's.


Hey Rich!

I recognize your sig pic 

yeah sfbaaps is oficially inop. Hopefully Jim is aware. I'll try emailing him.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Congrats on your success! That is awesome! I hear that bettas are very difficult to breed. You got a lot of fry and they so cute  

P.S. How would they do with 6 cherry barbs in a 14g tank? Because I would love to have at least one in there.


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## Randy Lau (Mar 29, 2008)

Yes I am on sfbaaps. Cool how you recognized my name when I don't have a recognizable signature picture like richy. =)


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

funkyfish said:


> Congrats on your success! That is awesome! I hear that bettas are very difficult to breed. You got a lot of fry and they so cute
> 
> P.S. How would they do with 6 cherry barbs in a 14g tank? Because I would love to have at least one in there.


Thanks funky. 

It's only difficult if you don't do your homework :icon_mrgr. It's easier than you think. I have never kept cherry barbs but if they're temperment is anything close to tiger barbs, I'll have to say no. Bettas do best with fish that are non-fin nippers. These are Plakats that I spawned so they'll have short fins which are generally easier to breed and care for. You can keep all the females you want with each other, but if you want males, 1 is the only number.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy Lau said:


> Yes I am on sfbaaps. Cool how you recognized my name when I don't have a recognizable signature picture like richy. =)


Some say I'm psychic :icon_mrgr. haha Your location gave you away man. Also you're pretty active on SFBAAPS, unlike myself .


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

speedie408 said:


> Thanks funky.
> 
> It's only difficult if you don't do your homework :icon_mrgr. It's easier than you think. I have never kept cherry barbs but if they're temperment is anything close to tiger barbs, I'll have to say no. Bettas do best with fish that are non-fin nippers. These are Plakats that I spawned so they'll have short fins which are generally easier to breed and care for. You can keep all the females you want with each other, but if you want males, 1 is the only number.


Hmmmm I love bettas so maybe one day I will give it a try 
Cherry barbs are more peaceful that tiger barbs I have them at the moment with my adult CPDs and RCS. They even school together and never seen my barbs nip at CPDs, they do chew on my snails antenas sometimes tho :frown:


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## Randy Lau (Mar 29, 2008)

Let's just say you're psychic--> How many baby fry do you think I will ask from you, hmmm?!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Randy Lau said:


> Let's just say you're psychic--> How many baby fry do you think I will ask from you, hmmm?!


I say 2 :thumbsup:. A male and a female. Yes? :hihi:


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## Randy Lau (Mar 29, 2008)

Alright, if you say so. =)


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Just a couple update pics of how big these guys have gotten. 



















These guys grow pretty fast. That probably explains why they eat so damn much.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

It's been a while so I thought I'd throw up an update on my progress.

My wife got bored so she insisted on counting all the babies. She got to 280 and gave up. I found 20 more after she threw in the towel. 300 bettas.... what the hell am I going to do with 300 bettas? 

I'm feeding frozen BBS now with some new dry foods I just got from VisionQuest. There are a few who already have faint coloration developing. There's about half that are darker in color and half who are kinda opaque in color. The weird thing is, both parents are dark in color so I'm not sure why there are opaque babies. Here are the pics:


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> My wife got bored so she insisted on counting all the babies. She got to 280 and gave up. I found 20 more after she threw in the towel. 300 bettas.... what the hell am I going to do with 300 bettas?


Yeah, that's always the biggest challenge when breeding fish... 300 isn't unusual for a betta spawn, either. I ended up giving them away as Xmas presents, sold a few (not nearly enough to cover expenses), and gave most of them away to whoever would take one.

Your best bet would be to find an LSF that would buy some off of you or trade for store credit... but back when I was breeding there wasn't one local to me that would do that.

If they turn out exceptionally pretty and are willing to get into shipping fish, you might be able to sell some on www.Aquabid.com.

You breed bettas for fun and the passion, definitely not for profit! LOL


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Aww they soo cute the whole 300 of them :hihi: And they grow fast!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

funkyfish said:


> Aww they soo cute the whole 300 of them :hihi: And they grow fast!


Wanna trade babies once they get older?


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Hmmmm definitley tempting  
I have to see first if I will have some extras. I am planing to keep most and some are already spoken for... I only have like 30+ babies well not counting the new eggs


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

i was thinking about your convo w/ Lnd on this thread from a month ago about male bettas eating fry....this may be a survival mechanism, it has to be easier to care for 20-40 fry in the wild as opposed to 300! i can attest to that because i find it hard enough to raise my one 4 year-old "fry", lol. though eating him might be a bit extreme....guess time-out will just have to do, lol.:red_mouth

in your experience, if left to his own devices, will a male betta eat his entire spawn, or leave some as Lnd experienced?

dibs on a male/female pair if you decide to ship any. i will pay shipping and a fair price.

AWESOME JOB, btwroud:


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Yeah, that's always the biggest challenge when breeding fish... 300 isn't unusual for a betta spawn, either. I ended up giving them away as Xmas presents, sold a few (not nearly enough to cover expenses), and gave most of them away to whoever would take one.
> 
> Your best bet would be to find an LSF that would buy some off of you or trade for store credit... but back when I was breeding there wasn't one local to me that would do that.
> 
> ...


lauralee,

I know what you mean. I know of a lfs that take in fish for store credit so when the time comes, I'll have to ask them if they'll take some (at least most of the females). 

I'm hoping some of the males turn out nice since the fater is actually one of the better specimens I've kept. I've never shipped live fish before but I think bettas are hardy enough to where it shouldn't be too much for me to handle. I've def thought about breeding for money, but then again I don't have a warehouse, let alone a garage. Maybe in the near future, but not right now. 




bherren1 said:


> i was thinking about your convo w/ Lnd on this thread from a month ago about male bettas eating fry....this may be a survival mechanism, it has to be easier to care for 20-40 fry in the wild as opposed to 300! i can attest to that because i find it hard enough to raise my one 4 year-old "fry", lol. though eating him might be a bit extreme....guess time-out will just have to do, lol.:red_mouth
> 
> in your experience, if left to his own devices, will a male betta eat his entire spawn, or leave some as Lnd experienced?
> 
> ...


Brandon,

I feel your suffering man. I have 2 "fry" of my own. A 3yo and a 1yo :eek5:. Let's just say I don't want any more kids roud:. 

As for the father doing his natural duty, I think with bettas it really depends on the fish. These fish have there own little personalities just like us humans. If you end up getting a good male, he will not eat a single egg/fry. I've never tried it myself, but would be a great experiment one day since the male I got is a pretty damn good father. 

My assumption is if left to care for the brood, he wont eat any but may end up abandoning them as they become free swimmers. I'm saying this because betta fry are unlike some other species where the fry stick together as a school. Betta fry will wander off on their own. The male will try his best to keep as many together as long as he can, but eventually they will all go their seperate ways as they get stronger (this should be within the first week of hatching). 

I'll have plenty to go around and touch base with you once they're ready to ship. At the moment, they are already eating dry/frozen foods so realistically they can be adopted. However, I'm waiting till they get a little bigger to differentiate male/female and colors. roud:


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow, 300 from one spawn? That's a good number. I'll be looking forward to your B. Albimarginata journal.

ps. My B. Macrostomas spawned today, hopefully he'll hold the eggs this time. It's their 8th or 9th time spawning [fingers crossed!]


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

dxiong5 said:


> Wow, 300 from one spawn? That's a good number. I'll be looking forward to your B. Albimarginata journal.
> 
> ps. My B. Macrostomas spawned today, hopefully he'll hold the eggs this time. It's their 8th or 9th time spawning [fingers crossed!]


Wow you got some Macrostomas? Nice! Make sure you send me a pair when you have them avail. We can swap if I'm successful with Albimarginata roud:.


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> Wow you got some Macrostomas? Nice! Make sure you send me a pair when you have them avail. We can swap if I'm successful with Albimarginata roud:.


Yeah, got 8 juvies, all but three died - all adults now; got 2 males and 1 female now (reverse trio..?). They've been spawning but haven't kept the eggs to term, hopefully this time as I stocked the tank heavily with java ferns, driftwood, and PVC pipes so he can hide well. Will definitely be up for trades :icon_bigg


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

> Brandon,
> 
> I feel your suffering man. I have 2 "fry" of my own. A 3yo and a 1yo . Let's just say I don't want any more kids .


Speedie, we're stopping at one here, lol, so I'm with ya 100%. I do love being a father, but you know how trying it can be at times. I'm always afraid I'm doing it wrong and that I'm going to screw up my son for life (over exaggeration, but I think you know where I'm coming from). It is the hardest thing I have ever done. Everything I did to my parents as a child, and I was by no means an angel:icon_twis, I am getting back 10 fold. It's harder than putting up with my old lady, who is adamantly opposed to my addiction/ aquarium hobby:icon_lol:, perhaps you know how that is, especially when money is tight and you need to replace a light bulb or get new filter pads. It is even harder than my two years spent in Iraq, and I was a forward observer(I called in artillery strikes for infantry, normally attached to a small scout team) with 2/502 Infantry Regiment!




> As for the father doing his natural duty, I think with Betta's it really depends on the fish. These fish have there own little personalities just like us humans. If you end up getting a good male, he will not eat a single egg/fry. I've never tried it myself, but would be a great experiment one day since the male I got is a pretty damn good father.
> 
> My assumption is if left to care for the brood, he wont eat any but may end up abandoning them as they become free swimmers. I'm saying this because Betta fry are unlike some other species where the fry stick together as a school. Betta fry will wander off on their own. The male will try his best to keep as many together as long as he can, but eventually they will all go their separate ways as they get stronger (this should be within the first week of hatching).


So what do you think accounts for the cannibalization observed by you and others? And has this been observed in nature? I need to look around, maybe goggle scholar, or some of the resources at school to see if anyone has done any research in this area. I have only breed numerous species of cichlids and observed their parenting behavior. Fish behavior is something that definitely interest me. It is why I chose to major in Biology after getting out of the Army. After two tours over seas the aquarium hobby essentially saved my life, well in the sense that it kept me grounded and calmed me, sometimes when nothing else would work, so I could process other issues I had related to combat stress.....it was a school of 15 rummy-nose tetras and a pair of apistos that I would watch for hours....
On a lighter note, my university just hired a new ichthyologist and she might be interested in sponsoring me in some student research. Perhaps if the professor and I don't find much on breeding and parenting behaviors of _Betta sp._ maybe I could do some undergrad research on the subject. Perhaps a pair from you in the name of science would be great! If I do get to do anything I will certainly cite you as the supplier of the specimens used for the research.



> I'll have plenty to go around and touch base with you once they're ready to ship. At the moment, they are already eating dry/frozen foods so realistically they can be adopted. However, I'm waiting till they get a little bigger to differentiate male/female and colors.


I'll add you to my friends/contacts so we can be in contact once your fry are ready to ship.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings,
Brandon


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Brandon - Seems like you've been through a lot bro. I commend you for serving our country and being able to handle what you did and are doing. Keep at it man! Hopefully one day I can see my name in that research project of yours . I'll be more than happy to supply you with a few pairs when the time comes (free of charge of course). 

Cannibalism... I've seen many betta parents eat their eggs/fry. I've also seen a few who do not eat anything. Those are the ones I label as, "good fathers". Cannibalism can be a built in survival instinct that _any_ animal if pushed to the brink of death, will most likely bring out that cannibalistic instinct. 

Another view could possibly be, passing on genetics that inhibit cannibalistic traits. Let's say the animal tends to eat his young/eggs. That animal will not produce nearly as many offspring next to another animal of the same species, who does not exert cannibalistic behavior. Evolution will then take its course and slowly get rid of all the nasty cannibals . Natural Selection, shall we?  That's just me thinking out loud. I'm certainly not an Ethologist. haha


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

I like the possibilities here. Now to just get APSU here in Tennessee to go along with it....We shall see what the future holds. Although breeding experiments to eliminate the eating of fry is selective breeding, not natural selection. To let natural selection act on this trait would take longer than you or I have on this Earth. 

Although a possible angle would be to simulate a speciation event where the interbreeding population is separated. For instance, say a flood carries the bettas who show cannibalistic tendencies away from the rest population and now the two populations are geographically isolated. Then breeding takes place for several generations. Would the cannibalistic group die out completely over time? Would the once cannibals stop their cannibalistic tendencies and adapt to continue to exist? Would the group that didn't posses any cannibals start to show cannibalistic tendencies? Lots of interesting questions here.

I do know that research in evolution like what we are discussing is hard to get approved for the simple fact that it often takes an immense amount of time, on the order of decades for most, to get definitive results. 

But an attempt to describe the mechanisms responsible for spawning habits, mate selection, and brood care can elicit good results in a relatively short time. And this would be a nice place to start, especially for an undergrad. Then there is the fact that I have to look around really hard to see what work has already been done in this area, which I have not done, and do not have the time for at the moment as we are smack dab in the middle of a semester and I have a full load. But the search for other papers on research of this nature can be difficult and time consuming in and of it's self. We already know these things, so there are most definitely papers already covering this. So that brings me back to the eating of eggs/fry behavior. Has anyone tried to tackle this phenomenon? I have read that the female will do so out of simple hunger which is why the male will chase her away. Have you observed this? I swear, if someone starts research on this after right now, October 23, 2009, your my witness that the idea was stolen from or discussion.

Right now I just have a massive amount of speculative ideas floating around in my head about a species that I have minimal knowledge of at best. I do know quite a bit about cichlids, both new world and old world, but they have been beat to death as far as research goes. 
It definitely doesn't help that the Betta's natural distribution area is half way around the world...especially for my small university.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

speedie408 said:


> Wanna trade babies once they get older?


hey Speedie I got more fry and more eggs from my CPDs :biggrin: so I do want to do a trade eventually, once they big enough to be shipped. The only concern is I never shipped any fish before and do not know how to do it properly so I will need some help with that


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## syrianrue (Oct 28, 2009)

omg i love betas.. and you actually found short fin betas too!! most pet shops i see only sell long fin males :\


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'll be selling them soon if you're interested. $1 each unsexed. If you want them sexed, it may take another 3 weeks.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

OK, update time for anyone who cares  and are following this thread. I got my hands on some Indian Almond leaves and dropped 2 leaves in their tank and they absolutely love it. They're starting to color up and even showing signs of aggression. Please take these guys off my hands... I don't have counter space to be separating all 150+ babies.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

LOL

I invested in quart mason jars from Walmart. Wasn't expensive, but weekly water changes on 100 or so jars was NOT fun!

I just pulled out any fish that started showing aggression and jarred 'em. Had some jarred females, too- but sometimes females can be aggro, too.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> LOL
> 
> I invested in quart mason jars from Walmart. Wasn't expensive, but weekly water changes on 100 or so jars was NOT fun!
> 
> I just pulled out any fish that started showing aggression and jarred 'em. Had some jarred females, too- but sometimes females can be aggro, too.


Those are big jars laura. I was thinking some clear plastic drinking cups with newspaper on top to keep jumpers in.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The bigger the container, the longer it takes for the water quality to deteriorate.

If you're looking for fast growth and good color so you can unload these as quickly as possible, I'd personally go for as big containers as you can fit.

You can certainly make smaller containers work, but if you go with cups, I think you're looking at multiple water changes per week to avoid stunting their growth.

Fry/juvies especially are VERY sensitive to water params.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Copy that. Thanks for the tips laura. Now to find more counter space.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I bought a cheap 5-shelf unit at a yard sale for like $10 and stuck it in a corner. It worked really well.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Wow they grow so quick. And look at the pretty colors  Mine are no where close to getting color on their fins. I also think I might've made a mistake by putting fry that was 3-5 days old with the older ones I can not see them anymore  I need more counter space and more tanks LOL


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## DUHK (Jul 27, 2009)

What are the almond leaves good for?


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

The leaves help soften the water and lower the pH (not sure if by a considerable amount). Leaves also release acids that may trigger hanky panky time and act as an anchor for the male to build a nest under.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Well, it's been a month and I've given away most of my babies except a select few that I kept for breeding. These 2 guys are the the first 2 I had to segregate so far due to their bad tempers. What do you guys think?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Very nice! Those are only 2 mos old?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lauraleellbp said:


> Very nice! Those are only 2 mos old?


Thanks Laura. They're about 2.5 months old now. They grow pretty fast.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

You did a good job with them! roud:


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

speedie408 said:


> Well, it's been a month and I've given away most of my babies except a select few that I kept for breeding. These 2 guys are the the first 2 I had to segregate so far due to their bad tempers. What do you guys think?


Oh WOW they grown up so fast! And very beautiful!

I wish CPDs were growing up fast as well!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

funkyfish said:


> Oh WOW they grown up so fast! And very beautiful!
> 
> I wish CPDs were growing up fast as well!


Bettas have voracious appetites which ultimately makes them grow like Chia pets. :hihi:


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

speedie408 said:


> Bettas have voracious appetites which ultimately makes them grow like Chia pets. :hihi:


I wish my fry grew as fast :icon_frow
How big was your nursery tank? Maybe mine growing slow because of a 2.5g tank they were in and I had some shrimp and snails in there as well?! :confused1: I really hope it's not the case...


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's my new project: 
These fish came in today and have pretty much regained their colors from their long ride. Here's a few snaps. I didn't get the chance to snap the females but they are just as stunning as their counterparts. They're full of eggs and ready to breed. 

Blue Dragon


















Red-green Dragon









This guy is my favorite ATM: Super Black Copper HMPK









I'll be starting the breeding process with the Black Copper pair.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Those are gorgeous! 

Ok I think you gonna get me hooked on bettas :hihi: 
I need a fish room LOL


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Those are REALLY nice.

I'm rather drawn to the copper/black... perfect fish for Halloween LOL


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

updates?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Kinda lost track of the updates for this thread, my apologies. 

Long story short: 

The Copper Black pair was sterile and bred 3 times unsucessfully - SOLD

Blue pair, the female did not like boys AT ALL. I tried all my males unsuccessfully with her. The male was not a good father and lost interest in his eggs after spawning. I was able to save some eggs from his spawn with the Green female. - SOLD

Green pair is doing great and have 2 successful spawns. The one thing I noticed about these Dragons are that their young are not strong at all. Their survival rate is %50 only. I'm guessing it's due to inbreeding and not bringing in new genes. 

My most recent spawn was with my original male Plakat shown below, with the Green dragon female:

He squeezed about 200 eggs outta her. I took a few snaps while they were doing the dirty. 

Dad









Mom









Tango time









In for a squeeze









Climactic moment









These babies should come out real nice. With his strong genes, the fry survival rate jumped up to 90%. I have about 150 fry from this spawn.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

will they be dragons though?

can u explain how the genes work when a dragon is introduced?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

btw i love the red green male. do u have a pic of the male blue or is it the same one?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

From my experience with bettas, the babies will exhibit the female's finnage and they'll share the colors from both parents. They'll be half Dragons 

Blue male is the same male.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

okay so if you breed these young back to a dragon your in good with a full dragon again.

also what other crosses do u have of babes?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

problemman said:


> okay so if you breed these young back to a dragon your in good with a full dragon again.


I'm far from a geneticist so your guess is as good as mine :icon_cool

You can breed the half dragon sons back to the mother, yes. You'll get closer to the dragon trait yet once again. :thumbsup:


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

but then that would maybe mess with the strength of the outcross. might be good to get one more outcross to another kind then breed them back to a dragon and then to another dragon of the same color. may take a year to get there but atleast you would have a strong dragon blood. I CANT WAIT TO GET MINE!!


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

These are some great looking fish, too bad you ran into some steriles, but that seems to happen with some unless you spend the time line breeding and breeding back in a generatation or two.

LMK on those Albis once your ready as it will probably be my last Albi purchase for this tank unless I find some WC once for a decent price to mix in what generation are they do you know?.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah who knows what these overseas breeders are doing just to obtain a certain color/trait. All I know is that their genes produce very weak spawns. Although the fry that do survive are surprisingly strong. I will be breeding the offspring back to the parents. 

As far as the albis, I'm still waiting for my heat packs. I haven't forgotten bout you Craig. These are F2s of pheonixcry's fish I believe.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Dbl post


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

speedie408 said:


> Yeah who knows what these overseas breeders are doing just to obtain a certain color/trait. All I know is that their genes produce very weak spawns. Although the fry that do survive are surprisingly strong. I will be breeding the offspring back to the parents.
> 
> As far as the albis, I'm still waiting for my heat packs. I haven't forgotten bout you Craig. These are F2s of pheonixcry's fish I believe.


roud: I should have cash to spend by this weekend hopefully, picked up a total of 25 F1 Albis from 2 different breeders. Don't tell teh wife she would kill me if she found out how much those cost. 3 pairs plus 19 juvies....

I've been spending alot of time over at Ultimatebetta.com reading everyone adventures.... You over there?

Craig


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Damn bro! You done outdid me. You've got more fish than I do. Does that mean you don't need the 3 from me anymore haha? 

Coax your wife into participating. Make her rear the fry. She won't be able to resist those eyes. My wife loves these fish, and she don't even like my other fish. She wants me to start on Macs already. Know anyone who's selling some  ?


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

speedie408 said:


> Damn bro! You done outdid me. You've got more fish than I do. Does that mean you don't need the 3 from me anymore haha?
> 
> Coax your wife into participating. Make her rear the fry. She won't be able to resist those eyes. My wife loves these fish, and she don't even like my other fish. She wants me to start on Macs already. Know anyone who's selling some  ?


I'll still take that reverse if you want to sell if not no biggie, I like having multiple genes in my tank. My wife loves these fish catching them in the riparium is easier said the ndone but with all the hiding places the males can hide easily, I see the fish for about 3 hours a day otherwise they stay in the wood, or hiding in plant roots or behind the planters.

Those Macs are cool but expensive!

Craig


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> Coax your wife into participating. Make her rear the fry. She won't be able to resist those eyes. My wife loves these fish, and she don't even like my other fish. She wants me to start on Macs already. Know anyone who's selling some  ?


I'm tumbling some eggs right now - the males keep swallowing them, been like their 8th spawn. I have a reverse trio and have been rotating the males, no luck on letting them naturally hatch the eggs.

Hopefully the eggs are fertile and they'll hatch with the tumbler. Fingers crossed!


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Forgot to say, if all goes well, I will let you know when they're ready to go!


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

dxiong5 said:


> Forgot to say, if all goes well, I will let you know when they're ready to go!


Not to bang off topic to far but how big full grown do those Macs get?


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Hey Craig,

My adults will be 2 years old in June. They are ~3.5-4 inches. The eggs tumbling now came from a spawn yesterday (Sunday).

Sorry for hijacking your thread Nick...


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

fun fun fun!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Craig - still waiting in those damn heatpacks bro. 

Don - got pics of the parents? I would love to get a pair from you man. Please keep me first in line . Good luck with the tumbling. How exactly are you tumling the eggs. I read that there are chemicals in the fathers mouth that deters fungus. I'd like to know of your artificial technique.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

updates on your spawn speedie? how are my future fish coming?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

These guys are almost there. They are starting to develop the dragon scales already . I'll try to snap a few pics by tonight.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

yay!!! im ordering a purple female dragon!!! shes so cute!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

These guys are about 2 months old now. Green Red HMPK pair F1 fry. Their colors are starting to show now.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

speedie408 said:


> These guys are about 2 months old now. Green Red HMPK pair F1 fry. Their colors are starting to show now.


Those are HOT!

Craig


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Those look good and very pretty


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Yeah, I'm hoping they'll look like they're dad here in another month:









Thanks you two.


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> Don - got pics of the parents? I would love to get a pair from you man. Please keep me first in line . Good luck with the tumbling. How exactly are you tumling the eggs. I read that there are chemicals in the fathers mouth that deters fungus. I'd like to know of your artificial technique.


Hey Nick,

I'm using the plastic tube on Hydro Sponges and capping the ends with the bulls eye pieces (where you connect the airline) over a fine mesh/screen. I used the heater holder off of one of my Visi-Therm heaters to attach it to the side of the tank. Not sure about the chemicals in the male's mouth - maybe so, because all my eggs are fungused now 
I took a picture of the tumbler but the camera battery is dead so I will have to recharge it before uploading.

I'll find pics of the adults..

I'm thinking about getting a pair of HMPKs from a Hmong fella in Wisconsin. Here is what the male looks like, what do you think? 









It's unfortunately not a dragon, but I really like the colors.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Sucks about your eggs bro. Where did you order your Macs? If it's a reliable source, please let me know man. And yes, please find those pics and post em up. I'd like to see 

About the Hmong betta dude from WI... he goes by Coolbetta on Aquabid right? That betta is pretty sick. Get it! Let me know if you wanna trade later down the line. I've got plenty of Green dragons now.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

speedie408 said:


>


 i cal dibs on the 2nd one!!!! how many inches are they now? big enough to ship? lol:tongue:


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

these are the ones im bidding on. they will be coming from new york. im talking to the breeder to get some males.

purple dragon









blue dragon









what you think?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Problem, those are decent. Depending on price, you can get better ones. But then we may have different taste.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

10 bucks each. bred and raised in usa. im not complaining. i can maybe cross them with your offspring when i get some. got any USA breeders u like? cuz im not paying for imports. thats way way way to much for me. i love them but i cant afford to pay the shipping part.

did u get my PM? jw


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

So while I was siphoning out the fungused eggs, I saw that some had black specks on them. Looking closer, I also saw something thin and clear coming out of the circular egg. Looking _even_ closer, I noticed they were eyes and a tail! This proves that my bettas are fertile! Right now I have 5 eggs that have eyes and tails. They spawned on Sunday and today was the first time I saw "fry". I will mark today as hatching day and pray that these 5 make it.

This is the tumbler (and female B. Mac in the back):









Close up of the eggs in the tumbler (the white ones in the back have turned bad, and they look fuzzy because they're flowing, not because they're fungused...yet  ):









Here's a video of my males; I do not fight them. I have this theory that if you put males together for a bit, it will encourage breeding because there's competition. I always take them out before any attacks are made towards one another.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USj8JIz5Adg

I got them from Tri Le http://macrostoma.net/. He sold them on AquaBid a while back, under the name The_bentusi. Good quality and great guy for resources. He's been giving me tips here and there. And he's got some nice videos up on YouTube on his Macs.

Yep, it's Coolbettas. I plan on getting it or one of the pairs he's raising right now.

And problemman, I really like the Blue Dragon


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

i have to say your home made egg tumbler is awesome!!! well done!

i hope your bettas make it. good luck and thanks on the blue but im most excited to see the purple.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Don,

Left you a comment on your youtube video. Very creative my friend. Wish you the best of luck on those eggs bro. It may take a few more broods for the male to keep the eggs in his mouth. Where's your damn breeding journal on these bad boys dude? I'd be very interested to follow it. 

Problem - pm'd ya back and you can try the US breeder dxiong mentioned above. He's got some "cool bettas"


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

coolbettas has some nice fish for a good price but not alot of dragons. he has one of and orange yellow thats nice but i want to get my fems first.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

for the blue female?

you need to get these one speedie!!!

http://www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.cgi?fwbettashmp&1268551936


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## arktixan (Mar 12, 2010)

quick question how do you get your pictures so crisp and clear with out glare and like mirror images?

and... this sounds soo noob-like how do you come across getting "infusoria"?

I am looking into breeding myself. i have a 30 gallon tank, where my female is located, and my male is housed in one of them beta home kits.. i will post pics eventually. 
and I have a side 10 gallon tank.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

infusoria is just a living organism that is in our waters. a simple way to obtain it is just have live plants in the tank and bam. u got free food for babies


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

arktixan said:


> quick question how do you get your pictures so crisp and clear with out glare and like mirror images?


get a good camera & lens & photoshop for sharp pictures. Don't use flash directly at the glass or it'll bounce back to your camera ei shoot at an angle or use a remote flash or lamps.



> and... this sounds soo noob-like how do you come across getting "infusoria"?


Read up on the live food sticky in this forum.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

any updates?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

i hear some fish are going to be coming along....shhhh we have to wait and hear from the doc


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

were we going to get some pics of the bettas up for sale?


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