# bolivian ram questions



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I think this is one of those situations with a huge # of possible outcomes mostly depending on the "personalities" of the individual fish in question, so you'll just have to try it and see how it works out.

I'd have a spare tank or two on hand in case you need to rehome one of the fish.

You might consider removing the females, rearranging the tank a little, and then adding the male at the same time as the females.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

+1. Cichlids personalities certainly change when they are in a "new" enviorment (even if it is only a differnt scape). Typically with african cichlids one way to change behavior is to rescape the whole tank and the dominant fish tends to calm down, allowing a few fish to get his fifteen minutes.


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## northcoastad (Feb 5, 2010)

+1 on the rearrangment I got three males and maybe one female they dont fight that much but if i move anything they get confused and any aggresion that is there is gone for quite awhile used this method to introduce new fish into my tank
You wouldnt want to exchange male for female i got three one that would be perfect for you if interested PM me


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

do you guys think 2 males and 2 females would be too many for such a small tank? im pretty sure there are definitely 2 territories but no more than 2 the way the tank is scaped now.

and north, 
Are the tail fin extensions the best way to determine the sex of the rams?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I wouldn't try 2 pair in a tank this small. I suspect you're going to have to remove the "odd female out" once one of the females pairs up with the male as it is.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

thanks laura,

think I should just bring one of the females with me when i go to pick up the male?


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

I would wait til he picks one.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

F22 said:


> I would wait til he picks one.


Agreed. It may take a little while for them to pair up.

Or he may decide he likes both of them and they all get along- my male GBR was like that in my 90gal, he alternated among a harem of 4 females, and they all got along OK as long as they stayed out of each others' way during spawning.


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## Quesenek (Sep 26, 2008)

marley77 said:


> do you guys think 2 males and 2 females would be too many for such a small tank? im pretty sure there are definitely 2 territories but no more than 2 the way the tank is scaped now.
> 
> and north,
> Are the tail fin extensions the best way to determine the sex of the rams?


Yes that is the main way you sex Cichlids but I will say it's just a basic way, not entirely fool proof.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

hmm so im not at home for the next 2 days but im thinking its possible that the smaller and non dominant ram might be male. the head shape looks more male, the back fin has the male ray elongation, but the tail extensions are lacking and identical on the two. Ill check the breeding tubes on sunday.

Is it possible that the dominant female ram is just guarding what she thinks is prime real estate and may warm up to the possible male/other female?


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## northcoastad (Feb 5, 2010)

I say defienetly yes, females still are just as picky about their territories as the males are they will chase others out just as aggresively as a male until they find their compainion. How old are they? Is one mroe colorful than the other(probably the dominat one)?
Im no expert by any means on ram sexing but when you get home post a pic of them and I cna try and Im sure others on the forumn will help out sexing them.


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

unlike GBR bolivian rams are monogamous once they pair up. i have 5 bolivian rams, 3 females and 2 males. even tho they can be territorial you will NEVER see nipped up fins or scales missing. the most they will do is display or ram each other. even then its very mild. i got my first two about 8 months ago and lost one due to deformity (i wasnt very informed about in breeding ect.) then before christmas i got 2 more and lucked out and got a male and female. they are hard to find even when they are available they are gone pretty quickly.

more to the point i just got 2 juvinile females and put them into the tank with my half grown rams and they accepted them right away and they have been loving getting to know each other. they each definitly have their own territory but when i move plants or my log around they scoot around and have a good time getting it established again. in my opinion i think you could happily have the two females and one male. even if they pair up the other female will not get picked on or beat up on, they will just chase her out of their territory. keep the other female... maybe in the future get a bigger tank and get another male  

i have loved having my bolivians so much, they are so cute and when they start blushing out they are one of the most beautiful cichlids i have seen.. i love their blue lips 

as for sexing... males have a clearly defined spot on their side as the feamles it looks a little smudged. on the dorsal fins the males have a higher spike of black on the front where as the females have very little to no spike and its usually a light black to grey color. the females have a paler body in general. if you do post pics ill identify them for you.  

MALE : juvi









FEMALE: adult









well i went on a bit of a shpeal and the BF is laughing at me but i just love my rams. 

Amy


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

skygirl,

I agree with your comments about the rams not attacking each other. The most they do is chase. The non dominant ram looks EXACTLY like the pic you posted of the male. When i was choosing them in the store I purposely went for one with a slimmer body and high black back fin spike like the picture of the male. The dominant ram is fatter, has less coloration, and a less pronounced black back fin spike. The tank is very low light and all i Have is my droid's camera. Posting pics will be difficult but ill try sunday night.

Thanks!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

GBRs have the reputation of forming monogamous pairs also- but don't always do that, as in my case.

And once cichlids spawn it's very common for aggression to escalate in a tank that did not exist before, so just b/c the fish are getting along OK now does not mean that will be the case once they've got actual eggs and fry to defend.

So just a word of warning.

May not happen that way for you, but part of the fun of keeping cichlids is their complex and often unpredictable behavior.


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

lol we will look at any pics... lmao.. maybe you already have a male and female... we wont know till some pics are posted... *hint hint* id let them grow a little and they should come into their own... i see little rams in the store and i just want to buy them all!!!!!! lol i want a huge tank with just bolivians   ok not huge like 80 gallons maybe... make lots of babies!!!!!!!! lol

Amy


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

So when I git home late last night here was some new and interesting behavior. Dominant ram was still gaurding her territory but now when she would chase her non dominant friend to he other end of he tank, a little showdown woe occur. I only saw it a few times this morning but the two woukdbface eachother flare and ram face to face. Then the non dominant would retreeat a few inches and the dominant would return to her territory. Kind of cool IMO. Thee are no signs of injury or torn fins so I'm not that worried about them. I've tried to see the breeding tube but the rams don't stay still very long and that thing is tiny LOL. Pics are going to be awful as I have a Motorola Droid 5megapixals and a single t8 for light. I have some 27 Watt flourescets but I expect the rams to run for cover when I turn them on. 
Anyone have any thoughts on he rams?

And on a side note. I'm am overrun by pond snails. I'm going to.pick.up some assassins this week. If I crush he pond snails shells with my fingers will the rams or tetras(bloodfin) eat them?


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## northcoastad (Feb 5, 2010)

marley77 said:


> And on a side note. I'm am overrun by pond snails. I'm going to.pick.up some assassins this week. If I crush he pond snails shells with my fingers will the rams or tetras(bloodfin) eat them?


Yeah they should eat them Im suprised they got out of control, I had about 50 in my tank before I put rams and rosy barbs in and they destroyed the snails only had one big one left that recently died. But yeah the rams should eat them. 

I try to stare at mine when they are eating or picking at the gravel after I feed them it just might take some staring and patience to identify the tube.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks north ill try squishing a bunch more. I've only had the rams for maybe a week so hopefully their efforts coupled with a handful of assassins will eradicate the pond snails. O thought they Were cool at first but now 467557 little ones are everywhere.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

So I managed to get some pics of the non dominant ram. The dominant ram will not come out of her groveof wisteria and when she does, its just to grab something off the substrate or chase the other ram. I will keep trying to get pics of her.

If anyone can discern anything from these really bad pics it would be much appreciated.

You cant see the breeding tube in the pics but from what I can see it looks kinda fat. Neither's tube looks bigger than the other's. The non pictured ram is rounder, less colorful, and bigger. her head slopes down more gradually toward the mouth where as the pictured fish has like a forehead lol.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Looks like a boy to me. And thank you for dethroning me as the crappiest picture taker on TPT. Cameras hate me too my friend.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

Here are some more amazing pictures of the OTHER ram. She is the dominant one who usually wins the minor showdowns. For some reason she was hanging out on the opposite side of the tank, in the clear.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

Does the second set of pics look like a female to anyone? They stopped ramming eachother and weer kind of hanging out together for a good 2 hours before. They even spent some time sitting still in the dominant ones territory. As far as I could see she didnt chase him out at any time.

Any advice from any experienced ram keepers?


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I thought the 2nd looked like a girl.


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## marley77 (Jun 3, 2010)

Thanks for checking it out Chad. Even if I had an expensive fancy camera I would still suck at photography. In September when I set up my 55, and borrow my buddy's real camera, there will be no excuses LOL


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

I spent $300 on a descent camera and still cant set it up right. Photography failure...


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## SkyGrl (Jan 7, 2010)

you have a male and female for sure... hopefully they pair up. the lip locking is a VERY good sign.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/mikro_altispinosa.php

check that out. 

Amy


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