# Hakkai river rock



## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Any suggestions where I can find the Hakkai river rock that Amano uses in his panoramic iwagumi??


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## therealorangejuice (Apr 12, 2009)

Hakkai River, possibly?


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Comical... :icon_roll But I actually want to get my hands on some.


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

Scratch that... apparently they are unavailable for sale. Even Amano needed special permission from the Japanese government to get the few he has... *sigh*


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## Ugly Genius (Sep 27, 2003)

blair, I've been meaning to ask the same question. Thanks for asking it.
Sucks about the answer, though. Those rocks are so friggin' nice.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Just find a fast flowing river somewhere and find some characteristic rocks that look similar enough that non-experts would say they're the same kind of rock.


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## newlyearthbound (May 26, 2008)

Francis Xavier said:


> Just find a fast flowing river somewhere and find some characteristic rocks that look similar enough that non-experts would say they're the same kind of rock.


2x. how rock edges form are consistant based off water erosion occurs (rocks under water of course). the only changing difference is the content of the rock in a given area. Slow sediment deposits are going to be different than old glacier beds or dry rivers or old oceans. each deposits differently giving the local area's rock content different. just go out and look around!


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

newlyearthbound said:


> just go out and look around!


Yea, I just went white water rafting on the Potomac and saw a rock I'd describe as blue zebra. Had the same beautiful white veins, hard polished surface, but it was a dark grayish-blue instead of almost black. Wished I'd had the opportunity to take a shore strewn fragments...

Here in Michigan I doubt very much I could find anything like that... especially stuck in the suburbs outside GR. Newlyearthbound, find anything in your area as you are only about 2-3 hours away  ?


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## MARIMOBALL (Mar 18, 2007)

I tried to get this stone for may years ago but Blair is correct. You can not get those stones. Jeff at ADG tried to get it for me with no luck.


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## Cheapskate (Mar 24, 2010)

blair said:


> Scratch that... apparently they are unavailable for sale. Even Amano needed special permission from the Japanese government to get the few he has... *sigh*


Oh, Takashi Amano... does he ever use anything that isn't incredibly rare or prized? Lol


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Something like this?


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## inghamb87 (Mar 10, 2010)

> Scratch that... apparently they are unavailable for sale. Even Amano needed special permission from the Japanese government to get the few he has... *sigh*


Sorry to hear that 



> Just find a fast flowing river somewhere and find some characteristic rocks that look similar enough that non-experts would say they're the same kind of rock.


There's a solution and am sure it's much cheaper too. Besides unless someone is a pro they wouldn't really know the difference. Should be fairly easy to duplicate, hopefully.


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## Cheapskate (Mar 24, 2010)

Yeah, I'm sure its only unique because of where it came from.

The rock in the above picture looks pretty close, lots of rocks here in CO look similar, too.


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

You could go buy a rock tumbler kit and just make whatever you want to use nice and smooth... Sounds dumb. But it would work.


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## newshound (May 9, 2005)

you live in michigan... and you can't find any decent rock... use what is in your area.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_product_info&cPath=7_14&products_id=444

Looks like they are for sale now......


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

Ugly Genius said:


> blair, I've been meaning to ask the same question. Thanks for asking it.
> Sucks about the answer, though. Those rocks are so friggin' nice.


Aqua Forest Aquarium has similar rocks. I've already bought about 10 of the choicest rocks. They still have a number of them left (two or more boxes).

They are from China and called "AFA River Stones." They are not from ADA, but look exactly like them.

As stated in another thread, the rocks in the pictures (ADA) are huge. The main stone requires two men to lift, so good luck fittng that into our aquariums...lol


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

That rock AFA has is pretty cool-- but it is for sure NOT Hakkai Stone, for the record. But who cares, good rock is good rock. 

I was more than lucky enough to be able to do several favors for Amano, like acquiring rare photographic equipment off eBay that sellers wouldn't send to Japan, among others. Over the course of a few years I racked up enough brownie points to gain access to a one-time shot at picking a small group of Hakkai Stones from Amano's private stash (an overwhelming site indeed). The only catch was I had to go to Japan and get them myself as Amano would never "pick another man's stones" (I'll leave that one alone). Anyway, I made that trip, and got my chance and it was literally the pinnacle moment in my career. I remember so many years ago looking at those stones in the Nature Aquarium World books and just dreaming. I tried for years to find them or something similar. I got close a few times, but never the real thing obvioulsy. 
The surreal experience of standing in Amano's massive spread of this ultimate stone was something I'll never forget. I was a more than a little nerve-racking too because he stood there and watched me. He had to approve whatever I chose along the lines of "not taking anything _too_ primo", I think. I made pretty conservative choices, not taking the very best rocks I could have, out of respect for the opportunity mostly. Still got a pretty sweet set though. 
I will be setting up a 120cm tank with them very soon and video the whole process. Literally a dream come true.


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

jsenske said:


> That rock AFA has is pretty cool-- but it is for sure NOT Hakkai Stone, for the record. But who cares, good rock is good rock.
> 
> I was more than lucky enough to be able to do several favors for Amano, like acquiring rare photographic equipment off eBay that sellers wouldn't send to Japan, among others. Over the course of a few years I racked up enough brownie points to gain access to a one-time shot at picking a small group of Hakkai Stones from Amano's private stash (an overwhelming site indeed). The only catch was I had to go to Japan and get them myself as Amano would never "pick another man's stones" (I'll leave that one alone). Anyway, I made that trip, and got my chance and it was literally the pinnacle moment in my career. I remember so many years ago looking at those stones in the Nature Aquarium World books and just dreaming. I tried for years to find them or something similar. I got close a few times, but never the real thing obvioulsy.
> The surreal experience of standing in Amano's massive spread of this ultimate stone was something I'll never forget. I was a more than a little nerve-racking too because he stood there and watched me. He had to approve whatever I chose along the lines of "not taking anything _too_ primo", I think. I made pretty conservative choices, not taking the very best rocks I could have, out of respect for the opportunity mostly. Still got a pretty sweet set though.
> I will be setting up a 120cm tank with them very soon and video the whole process. Literally a dream come true.


That's freakin amazing! Yeah, I've never seen Hakkai stones in person--only from Amano's pictures. I know for a fact that the "river stones" that AFA carries are not Hakkai stones. They are from China and are not shipped by ADA. They are about as close as we can get as far as I know.

I think I'd be too starstruck to focus on picking stones with Amano watching. How long did it take you? 

Are these stones for his private use only and not for sale to the public? What is the significance of this stone?


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Oh man, Jeff. Talk about a way to make just about everyone on this site jealous :biggrin:


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

CL said:


> Oh man, Jeff. Talk about a way to make just about everyone on this site jealous :biggrin:


Oh, so true.:hihi:


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

Amano was allowed to retrieve a certain amount of Hakkai stone by the Japanese national government and no more - so he has a private collection that basically will never be for sale. Hakkai stone is considered some what of a natural treasure in Japan based on the region it's from. If you could buy it...let's just say...it's value was alluded to being more per pound than gold. Literally.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Isn't the Hakkai River some kind of protected area, or a National Park (except held with higher regard) in Japan? I think I recall reading something about it a few years ago.. maybe it was in an Aquajournal?


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

that's nuts. I wonder how many tanks Amano has in his gallery with a Hakkai stone hardscape. we've all seen the huge tank in pictures.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

You nailed it CL.


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

i run a very VERY big risk here, but........... ah...what the heck! that stone is not THAT nice....or am i just blinded?


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## rushr (Jan 11, 2010)

Edit: Nevermind, I know better than to mess with a person's stones.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

rountreesj said:


> i run a very VERY big risk here, but........... ah...what the heck! that stone is not THAT nice....or am i just blinded?


It's one of those "eye of the beholder" things, but the rock does have a certain, intrinsic wabi-sabi quality. For me I think it's that it's the first stone I ever saw used in an Iwagumi scape, and has just always been something I have lusted after. That and it is "rare", which adds some mystique. All this can certainly get a little silly at some point, for sure. But as focal-point rocks go, I like it.


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## rountreesj (Jun 12, 2007)

Of course! As with most hardscape, eye of the beholder. I feel the rarity probably adds a lot to the mystique.  I like it...I suppose I should have said "It doesn't seem that nice to ME" haha


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## Mr. Fisher (Mar 24, 2009)

I did some online research, and it looks like Hakkai is a mountain, which was the site of worship...I guess it's not a river, but a very sacred mountain.

Hence the need for amano to gain permission to collect and why these stones are so rare.


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## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I just had a laugh to myself as I realized that even in the States, Iwagumi is pretty religious...or at least as close to something 'sacred' as this side of the hobby has. Which makes sense really, Iwagumi is kind of the pinnacle of difficulty when it comes to scaping and a big part of that is stone selection...which gets to be pretty vehement. As Rushr said...you just don't insult another person's stones! Unless they just really aren't up to par.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Mr. Fisher said:


> I did some online research, and it looks like Hakkai is a mountain, which was the site of worship...I guess it's not a river, but a very sacred mountain.
> 
> Hence the need for amano to gain permission to collect and why these stones are so rare.


Yes, Mount Hakkai. I didn't want to bust anyone's chops referring to this "river", but I always knew of Mt. Hakkai as opposed to the Hakkai "river". Didn't really think of this rock as a river stone so much.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Here's an interesting link on a similar subject..

http://books.google.com/books?id=o-...=0CCkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=mount Hakkai&f=false


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Nice post/link there!


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## blair (Feb 8, 2009)

I look forward to seeing the stones Jeff. That sounds like a dream to be in the shadow of Amano, selecting from his private stock...

I settled on a hard scape with similar properties, like you many times before, but alas, they are no Hakkai.

Nevertheless, I cannot wait to get out of Beijing and finally start it up!


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