# 20L **Betta Macrostoma Breeding Project** Update 2/24



## ThoHell (Jan 22, 2011)

you got started without us!!!! *sadden*


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

ThoHell said:


> you got started without us!!!! *sadden*


My source gave me his only pair left. Sorry James. I've got another lead but if you wanna take the reins and order overseas, let me know. I'll give you his contact.


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## roybot73 (Dec 15, 2007)

Good luck! Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Great pics as always.


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## akdmks (Nov 15, 2009)

Man do I love the blue streak on their fins, looking forward to this! Wonderful shots of the fish, as always, touche.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

^^ Thanks fellas


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Good luck on the breeding! If anyone can get these two to mate, it'll be you. Gorgeous fish.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks Sara!


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

I love them! I want to get into breeding fish one day....but I'll stick with plants for now.

Can you take a FTS now? I need more eye candy!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Da Plant Man said:


> I love them! I want to get into breeding fish one day....but I'll stick with plants for now.
> 
> Can you take a FTS now? I need more eye candy!


It's not much to see bro... just 2 chunks of DW with a few plants in a bare bottom tank. The eye candy is what you've seen already :tongue:. I'll post up some new shots tomorrow and maybe I'll see if I can squeeze a fts in there somewhere for ya. roud:


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Its still eye candy because your so good at taking pictures


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Good luck! I hope they make lots of babies for you.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Hows this going? I have some b. channoides myself that I'm gonna try to breed


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Hows this going? I have some b. channoides myself that I'm gonna try to breed


Not so good man. :frown:

Sad to say, but the male is sick with a wound on his head. I've been trying to battle it with salt only and 20% water changes every other day just to keep the water clean. He's still eating so that's a good sign. My plans are currently halted because of this. This is the one thing I hate most about these fish. They are super suceptable to all types of diseases. Oh the misery that comes along with keeping such beautiful fish. :eek5: 

Good luck with your Channoides though. They are much easier than Macs.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yah, my males fight once in a while, but there's just 2 pairs in a 50 gallon, so they keep it to a minimum... Mine had a wound on his head for a few days from fighting, but it cleared up really quick. I'm betting your male will pull through just fine, must have just gotten too close to one of the females during feeding time (never get between a woman and her blood worm).

I wanted to do macs for a while, but could never bring myself to plop down 80 bucks for a male. My channoides are breeding regularly, but the males are swallowing eggs after a few days (probably because I keep tossing food in there). I'm hoping to get them synced up next week so that both males are carrying eggs and I'll put the females into breeder boxes so I can feed just them. If that doesn't work, I'll just stop feeding when I see males carrying eggs.

You'll have to let us know how this turns out though, macs are just freakin awesome.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

haha females do pack that bite, for sure! 

Once the male is carrying eggs, isolate him. Put him in one of your nice breeder boxes filled with a bit of java moss or some sort of plant cover. Don't feed him until he releases the babies. Feeding will def trigger him to eat and thus he'll gobble up the eggs. 

I'll keep this thread updated as much as possible.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

How's the male doing?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I didn't want to report this but my female jumped ship a week ago 

The male is still sick. I'm going to start dosing Melafix tomorrow to see if he'll beat it then. I was hoping the salt only treatment would help but it's not. I'm looking for another pair so I'm not giving up yet. Just sucks that I lost a perfectly good female. She jumped out a 1/4" opening near the lilly pipe where I left open for air exchange since the entire top was saran wrapped. Such a bummer.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

That suxs Nick...my killies jumped yesterday.....

We were all ready for your betta macs too!....I guess don't count your fishes til they hatch huh?....


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

shrimpnmoss said:


> That suxs Nick...my killies jumped yesterday.....
> 
> We were all ready for your betta macs too!....I guess don't count your fishes til they hatch huh?....


Sorry to hear bout your killies bro. Even knowing that they're jumpers and doing my best to prevent it from happening, it still did. :icon_cry: Sucks but I'm over and and ready to try again. :smile:


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Glad you are hoping back on the horse! Sad that the female died 

Hopefully next try you'll have them breed after 1 month of them being in the tank


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Da Plant Man said:


> Glad you are hoping back on the horse! Sad that the female died
> 
> Hopefully next try you'll have them breed after 1 month of them being in the tank


Thanks Caton. I hope so as well. This will be my very last attempt however, because I'm on my last nerve with this fish lol. Very frustrating to say the least.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm getting a new adult pair today!! I also won an auction for 5 semi-sexed juvies. If I don't get babies after this, I'll raise the white flag.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Good luck nick!


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Damn dude, nice! Ive got dibs on f1


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Hope he pulls through. My new abli is holding eggs right now in his own private tanks AND I've found a sitter willing to feed the fry while I'm in NY (if I should happen to actually get some).


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

shrimpnmoss said:


> Good luck nick!


With these fish I need all the luck I can get. 



mordalphus said:


> Damn dude, nice! Ive got dibs on f1


haha I'll put you on the waiting list buddy :wink:



Betta Maniac said:


> Hope he pulls through. My new abli is holding eggs right now in his own private tanks AND I've found a sitter willing to feed the fry while I'm in NY (if I should happen to actually get some).


Good luck with your brood BM. Hopefully my old journal helped you. If the male is still holding... you're doing something right.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Your journal was great.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Betta Maniac said:


> Your journal was great.


If you haven't seen this thread yet, you should check it out. Phoenix-Cry's old Albimarginata thread. She was the original breeder of the fish you currently have, which were my fish I got from Ebichua :smile:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/p...marginata-rescue-male-10-a-10.html#post931347


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

speedie408 said:


> This will be my very last attempt however, because I'm on my last nerve with this fish lol. Very frustrating to say the least.


I was like: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOES!" but then I saw the post right after that. Don't get me scared like that. Glad you got more fish....PICS POR FAVOR!


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

Sorry for your loss!!!



speedie408 said:


> I'm getting a new adult pair today!! I also won an auction for 5 semi-sexed juvies. If I don't get babies after this, I'll raise the white flag.


But, why didn't you include me?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Da Plant Man said:


> I was like: "NOOOOOOOOOOOOES!" but then I saw the post right after that. Don't get me scared like that. Glad you got more fish....PICS POR FAVOR!


Haha as soon as I get the fish and acclimate them I'll snap some shots for you guys. 



jimko said:


> Sorry for your loss!!!
> 
> 
> 
> But, why didn't you include me?


Sorry man lol. But it wasn't a GB type of deal. I asked the seller if she had more available and she said no. Otherwise you would've been contacted. I'm just glad you didn't go on there to outbid me.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice to know my fish are some of hers. I REALLY like the ablis. There's just something adorable about their pugnacious little faces. They kind of remind me of my Mastiffs (I know that may sound strange, but I swear the albis have the same “who you looking at” expression as the dogs sometimes).


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Betta Maniac said:


> Nice to know my fish are some of hers. I REALLY like the ablis. There's just something adorable about their pugnacious little faces. They kind of remind me of my Mastiffs (I know that may sound strange, but I swear the albis have the same “who you looking at” expression as the dogs sometimes).


Albis are what you say. They've got quite the mellow characteristics of no Splendens I've seen. They're so inquisitive as well, always so curious to stare at me when I'm around the tank. I have an awesome video posted on YouTube you should check out! My fish were trained to gather on command lol.

Here you go: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri9w1dsOS_0


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

*new male teazer*

Here's an iPhone teazer pic of my new male. He's a fatty! lol Hope he stays healthy for me. *fingers crossed* I should be getting my 5 juvies in the mail today as well. w00t w00t!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Got the juvies in yesterday and they're doing fantastic! Eating like pigs right out the bag. 

Juvi male


















Juvi female









Open wide!!


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## dinosaurodon (Jun 1, 2011)

Great pics, hopefully your breeding project goes well.


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## plantedpufferfreak (Feb 2, 2010)

ohh boy i want macs again lol I got rid of everybody i just still have my one male albi left. stop it lol


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

dinosaurodon said:


> Great pics, hopefully your breeding project goes well.


Thank you sir! 



plantedpufferfreak said:


> ohh boy i want macs again lol I got rid of everybody i just still have my one male albi left. stop it lol


I still have the Albi x Channoide male, livin large in my 120-P :hihi:. Get back on that saddle!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

They're mating!!!


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## karatekid14 (Jan 16, 2011)

I love these guys! They had a pair for $10 at my LSF, and I almost bought it but my tank wasn't big enough.


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

speedie408 said:


> They're mating!!!


What The ____!!!

Remember Jimko is Numero Uno on the list.


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

karatekid14 said:


> I love these guys! They had a pair for $10 at my LSF, and I almost bought it but my tank wasn't big enough.


Not Possible. Check the species again. These are expensive everywhere!!!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

karatekid14 said:


> I love these guys! They had a pair for $10 at my LSF, and I almost bought it but my tank wasn't big enough.


You must be mistaking these guys for regular pet store bettas (Splendens). Like Jimko said, these guys are "RARE" and cost 10x that amount lol.



jimko said:


> What The ____!!!
> 
> Remember Jimko is Numero Uno on the list.


I got you bro. roud:


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## karatekid14 (Jan 16, 2011)

I don't think I am making a mistake. They were in a little 2.5 gal display tank labled as "young macrostoma pair" I didn't see the female but the male was about 3in long and orange. I was very suprised to see them. Maybe they put the wrong price on it and wrote $10 instead of $100. Anyways, I still wish I could have them.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

They probably mislabeled the fish lol. Regardless, you should've taken advantage of the situation and tested your luck to see if a clueless employee would actually sell them for $10.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Nice nice nice....bow chicka bow bow....


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's a video I just took earlier of the egg tossing ritual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8TB8KYv44k


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

cool vid


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## Ben. (Mar 29, 2011)

Does the male hold them until they hatch?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Ben. said:


> Does the male hold them until they hatch?


That is correct. I'm just hoping this male will hold the eggs to term.


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

Great Video!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

First night with the lights off and he's still holding strong this morning. That's a good sign!


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Woo!


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Are you going to separate him from the females and other males?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Are you going to separate him from the females and other males?


I separated the female already. He now has the entire 20L to himself.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

woo hoo! I woke up this morning to my channoides mating vigorously. Lasted for about 8 hours, they just now finished up and the male is hiding under some IAL while the female chases away the other female and the killifish in the tank. I can't wait til my fish room is set up so I can put these guys in their own 10g when they're holding.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

That's SICK Liam! Now the hard part... is he going to hold to term? Keep me posted. 

As for my male. He's still holding strong.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

the countdown begins


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Bad news... he swallowed them all. Oh well... it's not unusual for males to swallow on their first few attempts.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

humm....I wonder if you can artificially hatch them with a strainer like shrimp eggs.....


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I don't blame him for swallowing them, I bet they're delicious!

And to artifically hatch them you'd have to get him to barf em up first! Lol


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I've read of folks using egg tumblers with mixed reports so I'm not really planning to go that route. If these bettas are anything like regular bettas, you just have to find the right male. Not all Bettas are created equal. They have their own personal characteristics. Bad males/fathers will almost always be bad for the rest of their lives. Good males can spawn constantly and be great fathers. I'm not sure if this is the same for Macs. I certainly hope not because I can't afford to be picky with these males lol. 

I'll give him some more spawns to practice. Just gotta keep on trek'n


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

I watched my amano shrimp mate for like an hour then in the morning one of the female had eggs...does that mean I am as cool as you because I got something to lay eggs? :icon_mrgr Very cool! At least you know that they will breed for you now, rather than finding out later that you have all females after trying to breed them for 6 months (Like me with my b/n pleco's) 


Jealous.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Caton,

You're only cool if you can get those suckers to survive to adulthood.  6 months is a little to drawn out for me... then again, these fish aren't going anywhere unless they die or commit suicide so, yeah. haha


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Finally got a few shots of the male.


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## Sd760 (Apr 25, 2011)

Awesome stuff. Great pics


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Those are amazing little fish. What camera setup are you using. I found out my Celestial Pearl Danios have been getting busy and now there are little guys popping up from the moss wall and other hidden locations in the tank.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

demonr6 said:


> Those are amazing little fish. What camera setup are you using. I found out my Celestial Pearl Danios have been getting busy and now there are little guys popping up from the moss wall and other hidden locations in the tank.


Canon 60D / 100mm f/2.8 macro


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## tkbellwood (May 16, 2011)

I have always wanted to do macrostoma, but have never had the right opportunity at the time I had a tank for them. I did breed imbellis and spledens in the past and I have had fathers that would eat a batch and then be good dads later on. 

I think it had to do with their comfort (food, lighting, disturbances, water quality) not matching and they just decide that it isn't the right time to breed. I know I had one brood that was doing well (day 2) and one of my daughters who was about 8 drop something loud in the fish room and the dad immediately began to eat the babies.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

tkbellwood said:


> I have always wanted to do macrostoma, but have never had the right opportunity at the time I had a tank for them. I did breed imbellis and spledens in the past and I have had fathers that would eat a batch and then be good dads later on.
> 
> I think it had to do with their comfort (food, lighting, disturbances, water quality) not matching and they just decide that it isn't the right time to breed. I know I had one brood that was doing well (day 2) and one of my daughters who was about 8 drop something loud in the fish room and the dad immediately began to eat the babies.


That's reassuring to a certain degree. Macs can be pretty finicky fish. They like to be pampered. If the water or tank conditions aren't to their liking, they will show you by the way they swim, and their body coloring will be a dead giveaway... exactly like a mood ring.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Nice face shot. Their mouths looks huge.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

They didn't get their name for nothing bro. Macro = "BIG" Stoma = "MOUTH"


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

They spawned again yesterday. 

Round 2...


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

Be very, very quiet the macs are breeding, heh. Wow that was a nice turn around for breeding, good luck!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think I know what I'm doing wrong now... the female busted up the male purty badly last night sometime. I found him with fins tattered and eggs swallowed. I am going to take her out after mating from now on, end of story. Let's see what happens for round 3.

On another note, my young male I got with the group of 5 juvies is coloring up very nicely. He still a youngbuck but already showing superb markings and color. Check him out flashing for the older female.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

That's some nice finnage! Wow! Those shots are ridiculous!:icon_eek::icon_eek::icon_eek:

2,6,9 are extra awesome.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

This is where halfmoon finnage for all bettas originated! lol j/k


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's a teaser of one of THE best sets I've taken so far of these spectacular fish. This one is of the mature male that's the star of this breeding project. Enjoy!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

2.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Wow. That's a beautiful fish. Look at that mouth. You could go noodling.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

3.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

4.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Last one of this set. High school sweethearts about to lock lips! 
5.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Ever have fish nightmares Nick?....Last night I dreamed that I had your macs were in my tank and they ate all the berry shrimps....LOL


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Last night I had a dream one was in my tub and ate our cocker spaniel..


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## ValMM (Feb 22, 2011)

They're beautiful. Hope it goes better next time.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

These are amazing pictures your photography just keeps getting better Nick.


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## flowmsp (Feb 6, 2010)

hydrophyte said:


> These are amazing pictures your photography just keeps getting better Nick.


+1 All these pictures look like magazine quality!


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Nick, make a calendar of your plants, fish and shrimps...rare erios...crypts...do a 2012 TPT by Speedie calendar. I'll rock that in my office next year.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lmao!! 

Thanks guys! Means a lot to me to hear comments like the ones above. 

As far as nightmares go, I've never dreamed about fish or shrimp. It's always about alien invasions and zombie apocalypses lol. I need BIG guns instead of more fish/shrimp/tanks hahaha. 

Anyway, as far as updates go the male is holding again as of this recent Friday. I left town on that day after I took out the female so I'm hoping he's still holding when I get back home tonight. *fingers crossed*

About the calendar idea I will most def put one together. It's just a matter of time so be on the lookout folks!!!


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## akdmks (Nov 15, 2009)

..I'd put the calendar in my office too.. if it matters.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

akdmks said:


> ..I'd put the calendar in my office too.. if it matters.


It matters!  trust me. 

The calendar should be out before December if all goes well.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

*Kills Nick to steal his fish, photos, and camera* 

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*dies after realizing I don't have Nick's skills to make any more awesomely amazing photos and have deprived both myself and the rest of the world of them* :icon_sad:


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Lol too funny Laura.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

This one better be next.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

shrimpnmoss said:


> This one better be next.


lol 

You're thinking way ahead of me bro. I like that hahaha.

I would love to update this thread, but my damn female has been sick since the last spawning. She got beat up pretty bad by the male and then she just stopped eating. I've been keeping her medicated for the past week n 1/2. Hopefully she'll pull through after this week is over. The male is pretty sad without her. He's been chillin in my main tank for the mean time, hence the headshot I just posted in "River Wild". :icon_mrgr


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Another female on auction cheap on a quabid. Go get her!

I'm gonna be moving my channoides to their own tank next week, I better not beat you getting fry. :>


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

mordalphus said:


> Another female on auction cheap on a quabid. Go get her!
> 
> I'm gonna be moving my channoides to their own tank next week, I better not beat you getting fry. :>


Liam, 

I urge you to beat me! I'm on freaking turtle mode atm. This is what I put up with keeping these fish. They can be hardy as hell one minute and dead in the water the next minute. Very disease prone at the first sign of bad water quality.

I've got 2 juvi females growing in my 120-p. I'm not wasting anymore money on Macs anymore if I can't work with what I got. Now all I need is patience. 

As for your Channoides, if you're ever looking for a hybrid male to spawn with, I have a tank bred (by yours truely  ) Albi X Channoide male (~11 months old). Very beautiful! :icon_mrgr and one of a kind. Holla!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

This one is just for you Howard! Enjoy!


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## majerah1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Great shots of the fish!I have found the males will swallow at the drop of a hat,lol.My neighbor threatens them and it seems they do it in spite.I will be covering the sides of both my tanks in hopes it will get them to feel more inclined to hold longer.

How many days does yours go before swallowing?Mine go three days.

That last shot,the male looks to have teeth.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> Great shots of the fish!I have found the males will swallow at the drop of a hat,lol.My neighbor threatens them and it seems they do it in spite.I will be covering the sides of both my tanks in hopes it will get them to feel more inclined to hold longer.
> 
> How many days does yours go before swallowing?Mine go three days.
> 
> That last shot,the male looks to have teeth.


I just noticed your avatar pic looks strikingly similar to my last pic lol. 

Thanks btw. My male held only twice, both for 3 days I think... I didn't have the sides blacked out, maybe I should nextime once my female recovers. She seems to be getting better, but still not eating. I think her eggs have been keeping her alive for the past 2 weeks without food. She needs to start eating again soon.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Hope your male holds long term one day, speedie.

Those macrostomas are beautiful, and your photography is amazing.

I need to get a real camera... although I wouldn't have the skill to use it...


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Man...someone knows how to breed these fishes...who did you guys get your fish from? Are the original breeders being all secretive about how to successfully breed these macs? What if you blacked out the whole tank?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

zachary908 said:


> Hope your male holds long term one day, speedie.
> 
> Those macrostomas are beautiful, and your photography is amazing.
> 
> I need to get a real camera... although I wouldn't have the skill to use it...


Tank you sir. Anybody can take shots like these. It's all mind over matter 



shrimpnmoss said:


> Man...someone knows how to breed these fishes...who did you guys get your fish from? Are the original breeders being all secretive about to successfully breed these macs? What if you blacked out the whole tank?


I think it may be the fish themselves... These fish have their own unique individual personalities that are different from one fish to another. I just hope I have some good breeders that will breed for me soon. Betta macs are super finicky! *GrrrRRR!* :angryfire Sometimes I feel like it's all a waste of time and effort. Not to mention $$. It's my last attempt at keeping these fish so they BETTER breed for me. :icon_mrgr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I have a pair as well for the my 60p.

We can compare notes soon.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> I have a pair as well for the my 60p.
> 
> We can compare notes soon.


Best of luck to you Tom. Some folks get lucky and get a good male right off the bat! I envy those folks. Hope you got a good male man. I know you won't hold out on me if you become successful roud:

btw, who did you pick your Macs up from? Just curious.


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## majerah1 (Nov 6, 2010)

I will share what I have been told and have learned though as you know I am not successful myself,just taken notes with my spawns.

First off I was reading that if you get past the sixth day chances are 90% they will hold full term.My males swallow on day three like clockwork,and on one I think I have found the reason.The day he spawned(he is under a year BTW)with the female,the last two times,after lights out I have seen her harassing him,though I have idea why.Also noticed that the male will periodically go to the bottom and dump his mouth(saw both do this and they are unrelated males)then pick the eggs back up.I believe the female is possibly stealing some from the male to munch on.Also maybe the wraps are not good enough to fertilize the eggs,or they are still too young to produce the milt.

I was told by the owner of ventralfins.com,to cover the tanks and if possible after spawning quietly slip a divider in the tank giving the male the largest area.Also tons of hiding spots were also suggested,so I will be adding some,though my tank is a jungle of chain sword.But also he said that his like to hide under Indian Almond Leaves,so maybe that can help.

Another thing someone else told me(the person whom the second male was purchased from,Synirr of UB.com)She keeps hers in totes,and they are completly covered with duckweed on top.She said once it was covered her male was holding to term.Also,leave the tank be.She said she doesnt mess with anything as far as the plants or decor goes,just maintains the water.

Basically my next step will be figuring out a divider,adding indian almond leaves,covering the tanks with towels and just not touching them except for water changes and feeding.

Speedie,have you tried live foods for the lady?Mine absolutely adores ghost shrimp and if I feel they are not eating well, i throw off a few in the tank and watch the amusing action.Gets them out of a depression too,having to go on a hunt for the little buggers.

In any case i wish you and plantbrain some luck.Hopefully one of you get some good fry out of the bunch.These are one of my absolute favorite fish and its disheartening to know how much trouble they have with holding.Makes me wanna just thump them on the nose.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

speedie408 said:


> Best of luck to you Tom. Some folks get lucky and get a good male right off the bat! I envy those folks. Hope you got a good male man. I know you won't hold out on me if you become successful roud:
> 
> btw, who did you pick your Macs up from? Just curious.


Wholesaler.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, if we can artificially bubble the eggs etc..then how long they are held matters less.

I wia till 1-2 days before hatching to remove the Sturisoma eggs, they way the tetras and rams do not eat them, they all hatch and have done well this well, I've increased the brood survivorship 70X.

If you are losing them anyway.......it offers a good chance to change and work on a new method vs just watching them all die off, no???

Tinker........... as long as they bred and produce more, you have nothing to lose in doing so.


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## majerah1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Bentusi has tried the tumbler,and I think he had a few decent results once he got the bubble rate fixed.The problem is the eggs are very easy to bust and also they fungus just as easily.Perhaps it can work.I just dont know if i want to strip my male,they look so sweet,lol.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> I will share what I have been told and have learned though as you know I am not successful myself,just taken notes with my spawns.
> 
> First off I was reading that if you get past the sixth day chances are 90% they will hold full term.My males swallow on day three like clockwork,and on one I think I have found the reason.The day he spawned(he is under a year BTW)with the female,the last two times,after lights out I have seen her harassing him,though I have idea why.Also noticed that the male will periodically go to the bottom and dump his mouth(saw both do this and they are unrelated males)then pick the eggs back up.I believe the female is possibly stealing some from the male to munch on.Also maybe the wraps are not good enough to fertilize the eggs,or they are still too young to produce the milt.
> 
> ...


Good luck to you as well. 

My female was very bossy and I think during lights out (I leave a night light on for my kids so the fish can still see in the dim light) she would boss the male so badly that I think they end up fighting. I woke up one morning to find her all tattered up with him no longer holding, but still hiding for some reason. This was my second spawning. 

The 3rd spawn, I attempted to take the female out and it didn't seem to bother the male one bit. Day 3 rolls by and he's out and about with a tummy full of eggs. :confused1: This was right before my female got sick. For the 4th attempt, I don't know whether I should leave her, or take her out now... a mesh divider may work but it'd be too much work for me since I saran wrap the top to keep the fish from committing suicide. :help: You can't win... it's just too much unneeded disturbance.

Thanks for the tip on the live food... I've been scared of feeding live worms because of my bad experiences with losing every single mac I kept back then to some unknown illness. These have been on a strict dry foods diet. Ghost shrimp sounds like fun tho... 



plantbrain said:


> Wholesaler.


Any pics of your pair bro? I wanna see how they look like compared to mine. 



plantbrain said:


> Well, if we can artificially bubble the eggs etc..then how long they are held matters less.
> 
> I wia till 1-2 days before hatching to remove the Sturisoma eggs, they way the tetras and rams do not eat them, they all hatch and have done well this well, I've increased the brood survivorship 70X.
> 
> ...


Time to TUMBLE!!! haha 

I have been holding off on the thought of using a tumbler only because I don't want to hurt the fish in the process. It'll be a very last resort type of deal if I do it. I've read that some people even give the fish a sedative so the fish don't go into shock while you're stripping the eggs. Didn't sound easy at all.... then again, these fish are not easy to breed AT ALL to begin with.


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## majerah1 (Nov 6, 2010)

I feel your pain,in a way.All three pairs of mine are from wild stock,but have been raised in tap water,so I dont have to worry as much about the RO and such.They have all be pretty healthy as well.

On the stripping the male part,I think I have a solution.As I said before,I noticed both males would dump the eggs and then pick the back up.Who knows why.But in this process,I think maybe we can steal some of them before the female does,and try to tumble them.I think the next spawn I will try this.

Now to look for a DIY egg tumbler.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Hey speedie, i know it's not related to your thread at all, but my channoides mated 3 days ago, and my male is holding still :> Now that they're in a tank of their own he seems to be holding much better and he's ignoring food too. I can see the eggs when he pops his head out of his cave. 

Wish I would have went for macrostoma now, wild bettas are friggin fun


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> I feel your pain,in a way.All three pairs of mine are from wild stock,but have been raised in tap water,so I dont have to worry as much about the RO and such.They have all be pretty healthy as well.
> 
> On the stripping the male part,I think I have a solution.As I said before,I noticed both males would dump the eggs and then pick the back up.Who knows why.But in this process,I think maybe we can steal some of them before the female does,and try to tumble them.I think the next spawn I will try this.
> 
> Now to look for a DIY egg tumbler.


Mine are living in tap as well. I think it was Synirr that told me pH don't really matter unless you don't want all male spawns. Softer water will yield males and females, while hard water will give you 100% males. I tried both soft and hard, both times to no avail. 

I'll be looking forward to your notes on egg tumbling. roud:



mordalphus said:


> Hey speedie, i know it's not related to your thread at all, but my channoides mated 3 days ago, and my male is holding still :> Now that they're in a tank of their own he seems to be holding much better and he's ignoring food too. I can see the eggs when he pops his head out of his cave.
> 
> Wish I would have went for macrostoma now, wild bettas are friggin fun


Good to hear bro! Channoides and Albis are super cool but like how you've already got the itch to get Macs, I've been in your shoes already. Great experience to say the least. You're bound to get Macs sooner or later lol.

Enjoy your Channoides while you have em and I hope your male holds to term. Not sure if you were around yet when I was keeping Betta Albimarginatas but I had them trained to respond during feeding sessions. Check out this old video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri9w1dsOS_0


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Update: My thoughts of the female getting better were wrong. It made a turn for the worst. She's pretty much on her death bed (or should I say moss bed?) atm. I'm dosing the tank with metro to see if it'll help any. It doesn't look too promising . She's been on a hunger strike for a month now... poor fish. She's used up all her eggs as nutrient rations. I can clearly tell because she's as skinny as a twig now. I can't look at her anymore and got very close to putting her down. She's my only confirmed female.... What should I do guys? My heart tells me, euthanize but my gut keeps encouraging me to keep the meds going. 

Oh the agony...


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Put her out of her misery.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

shrimpnmoss said:


> Put her out of her misery.


I'll give her 3 more days... 

Then it's lights out.


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## Pootie (Mar 5, 2010)

this is like a frustrating soap opera! Hope it has a good ending.

I have been reading this and other threads on different forums with people trying to breed these guys, and i am very interested but will not dare take the plunge.. But i found this pic that i thought was cool.


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## firefiend (Sep 3, 2009)

shrimpnmoss said:


> You could go noodling.



OMG! thank you... I've been racking my brain ever since I saw the commercial for that ******* catfish fishing show. I kept saying to myself, "what the hell is that called again."


These Betta are absolutely beautiful! I'm sorry for the troubles with the female, though  I've been trying to get my hands on different Betta species for a while but no place around here is willing to try to get them.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Pootie said:


> this is like a frustrating soap opera! Hope it has a good ending.


Tell me about it. Days of our Lives better watch out!! 



firefiend said:


> These Betta are absolutely beautiful! I'm sorry for the troubles with the female, though  I've been trying to get my hands on different Betta species for a while but no place around here is willing to try to get them.


If you can find 2 females, I'll trade you one of my beautiful males for one of your females.


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Man, that sucks, Nick. I'm having no luck with my albis either (he's an egg swallower too). I’ve tried removing the female after spawning, removing him to his own smaller tank, and putting him in a breeder box with moss. Same results every time. When I get back from Burning Man I’m going to invest in another pair or three and see if I get better results.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Betta Maniac said:


> Man, that sucks, Nick. I'm having no luck with my albis either (he's an egg swallower too). I’ve tried removing the female after spawning, removing him to his own smaller tank, and putting him in a breeder box with moss. Same results every time. When I get back from Burning Man I’m going to invest in another pair or three and see if I get better results.


Are these the pair you may have gotten from another SFBAAPS member? I don't know what to tell you because Albis were very easy for me. Not sure why you guys are having so much trouble with them. I hope you have some luck soon. I know firsthand how frustrating unsuccessful breeding is. :help:


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## Betta Maniac (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah, these are probably some of your downstream babies. Don't know why he keeps swallowing them. But the CPD fry love the microworms I got for potential albi fry, LOL! 

BTW, saw a female only Macrostoma for sale on Aquabid last night.


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## plantedpufferfreak (Feb 2, 2010)

ive got the betta itch again speedie lol im trying to get my hands on some rubra or unimac  my fish store has a adult male mac that i want REALLY bad but i cant afford him at the moment. he was beautiful and very very healthy. i miss my macs


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## Betta_noob (Dec 14, 2010)

Hi, I've had two pair of betta ablimarginatas in a well planted 20 long for about a year now. When I first got them they spawned a few times and the male would swallow the eggs around day three. It has been six+ months since the female has initiated any spawning. They all eat well and have a nice body weight.

The females get dark after a good feed or water change, but don't get the vertical bars associated with spawning...

My water is super hard and my ph is rather high (220 ppm and 8ish). I have added a filter bag and a free handful of sera super peat to the tank in hopes it may lower the ph, if that is the issue at all.

I'm not sure what else to do to get these bettas to spawn. ANY advice is welcome.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

plantedpufferfreak said:


> ive got the betta itch again speedie lol im trying to get my hands on some rubra or unimac  my fish store has a adult male mac that i want REALLY bad but i cant afford him at the moment. he was beautiful and very very healthy. i miss my macs


Travis,

GET SOME!! We need more members on the Betta Mac movement. We need to find out the secrets to getting these fish to hold to term. The more people involved, the faster the secret will be revealed. :icon_mrgr



Betta_noob said:


> Hi, I've had two pair of betta ablimarginatas in a well planted 20 long for about a year now. When I first got them they spawned a few times and the male would swallow the eggs around day three. It has been six+ months since the female has initiated any spawning. They all eat well and have a nice body weight.
> 
> The females get dark after a good feed or water change, but don't get the vertical bars associated with spawning...
> 
> ...


Try using RO water mixed with like 10% tap. These fish prefer soft acidic water. If you don't have any, get some Indian Almond Leaves (PM jimko). It will help in conditioning your breeding pair as well as soften your water. 

These older threads may help you as well. Plus they'll be good reading for ya.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/fish/95608-phoenixs-betta-albimarginata-pics-2-24-a.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...-20l-downoi-farm-3-26-11-a-3.html#post1049940


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Time for an update on this thread. 

My younger fish are finally mature enough to try them at breeding. I separated a pair into my old OEBT shrimp tank. They're loving it in there so far. They're already flaring at one another so that's a good sign. Let's hope we get some action soon yeah? 

Here's a mediocre shot I got from earlier tonight. The lighting is bad since I couldn't get a good position over the tank with the flash.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

For me that's like an awesome shot! Not mediocre! But I know you can do better Nick.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

I can't tell which side is up?!? 

come on round 2...or round 6....*chants* no swallowing...no swallowing...no swallowing..


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## jimko (Aug 17, 2007)

Still waiting for my pair!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

lol I'm working on it. I only got 2 hands y0! Got too much on my hands these days.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Those macs are so awesome, Nick! Makes me really want some.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

zachary908 said:


> Those macs are so awesome, Nick! Makes me really want some.


Inspire your boss so he can bring some in for ya :hihi:.


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## majerah1 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hey are the new pair working out?Any spawns yet?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

majerah1 said:


> Hey are the new pair working out?Any spawns yet?


The young females are not quite ready yet. I'm in the process of getting some frozen black worms to fatten them up so I'll keep posted.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> Inspire your boss so he can bring some in for ya :hihi:.


Ha, I should. I'm currently trying to get him to bring in a pair of Rachel's Rhinogobious Zhoui, along with a bunch of other stuff.


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## thebettashop (Sep 24, 2011)

amazing Macs. Purely Beautiful!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

thebettashop said:


> amazing Macs. Purely Beautiful!


Thanks! Glad you like them. My young pairs are almost breeding age now.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

How are the macs doing, bro?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

zachary908 said:


> How are the macs doing, bro?


I'm just keeping them all as a community in my main tank. I've got no room to set up a breeding tank for the young adult pair. I've been debating on whether to sell them or keep them. :icon_conf


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> I'm just keeping them all as a community in my main tank. I've got no room to set up a breeding tank for the young adult pair. I've been debating on whether to sell them or keep them. :icon_conf


Gotcha. I'd keep them,Nick. They are awesome fish, and who knows, maybe later on you will have some time/space to set up a tank for them.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

UPDATE!!!! BIG NEWS!! They're mating!! I have to go out right now but I'll post up a video later or tomorrow... depending on how intoxicated I'll be after I get back lol.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> UPDATE!!!! BIG NEWS!! They're mating!! I have to go out right now but I'll post up a video later or tomorrow... depending on how intoxicated I'll be after I get back lol.


Nice!!!! Can't wait, bro!


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> UPDATE!!!! BIG NEWS!! They're mating!! I have to go out right now but I'll post up a video later or tomorrow... depending on how intoxicated I'll be after I get back lol.


Thats hot!!! Congrats Nick!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Here you go guys! Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMFEPxtvY7I


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Really cool video!


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

hydrophyte said:


> Really cool video!


Glad you liked it Devin!


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## afr3178 (Feb 29, 2012)

I have been really interested in macs ever since my work got 3 pairs in. After doing some research and this came I up, I have read all 10 pages. I was hoping towards the end that there would be some fry... But I still have my hopes for this time. 
How are the macs going now?
I'm thinking of getting a pair of macs but $170... what pH, tank size and hardness do you recommend?

Thanks


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