# ADA in the USA!!



## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

Look at the filters... gezz 600 bucks. I wonder if they'd beat eheims, i bet they do
http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=ShopADG


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Gomer - Thanks for posting this! Some of this stuff is hot, hot, hot! Working up an order now...


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## fishfry (May 9, 2004)

maybe orange county locals can put together a group order, I really want to get some aquasoil


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

Might be worth it if we get a handfull of people together. Shipping is always a killer on substrate, but you never know with numbers


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## Silent Running (Sep 13, 2004)

Are those items really worth the price differential as far as quality is concerned, or are you just buying the name? Hang on while I put on my flame retardent suit .


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

Their C02 equipment and other equipment is MORE than a little pricey...its ridiculous! Aquasoil and fertilizers, substrates could be interesting, but how is it packaged...grams, liters or something?? Pardon my ignorance, but how does that compare in quantity/ price with Ecco complete or Flourite? Are you getting half as much for the same price or what? How many liters equal a pound? Their price on 18 liters of power sand is $100 Isn't that less than 20 pounds?


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Rough guess is there are about 6.5 liters in a bag of Flourite. So it appears that the Power Sand is about 2-3X more expensive than Flourite. The Aqua Soil is just about the same and the decorative sand is cheaper but the shipping is going to kill you. And when you consider that you are really supposed to use all three products..........


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I would use the Amazonia substrate with some diamond black underneath.
http://aquascapingjournals.com/images/20_gallon/diamondblack.JPG
A lot of their bacteria products and starter products are like the ones we have in the US, I don't think anyone uses them.


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

Eco complete=5.9L/20lb bag
Flourite=7.27L/7kg bag. 


power sand is to be used sorta like laterite..as a first layer. Not much is needed.


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## fishfry (May 9, 2004)

I don't understand how aquasoil is 3x the price of other substrates...after shipping maybe 1 9L bag will be about 30 dollars. If you get a bag of florabase on dr foster's and smith for 20 dollars, it will also cost about $30 after shipping. For some people that get bargains on flourite and such it will be more expensive. 

Even if you are just using aquasoil alone I think it will be better then some (can't say most until I use it) substrates available in the US, and it can be re-used many times also if done properly. I paid 23 dollars for a bag of florabase and it is crap...it has started to decay on me and turn to mush. Nobody needs a 18L bag of powersand, that is probably enough for a 200 gallon aquarium. For a 20-30 gallon tank you only need 2L and you can probably make your own with some peat, substrate ferts. and pumice. You don't have to use sand, power sand, and aquasoil. The sand in the front is purely decorative if you want a sand foreground, if I was going to grow plants in the foreground there is no point to use sand there. I have seen people that have success with just aquasoil as their entire substrate. Shipping will be expensive, but I don't think it will be that bad UPS ground.

Some of the other products are really expensive and you are paying for quality, and then there are other products that would just be a waste of money to buy, and then there are other products where the whole purpose is just for them to look pretty like the co2 check valve. There is always automatically so much hate, I think some people may be pleasantly surprised by some of their products.


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## Ahkuma (Dec 5, 2004)

What does the Diamond Black do?

...and yes I used the search function Rex.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Diamond Black is like peat, but in a more stable form and it's harder. 

Powersand is simply peat, pumice, carbon, "bacteria" and some trace. It is made to house bacteria which keep iron at a reduced state and they recycle nutrients such NO3. It will also be a good idea to add some zeolite or Terralit, it has the ability to bind NO3 for plant uptake.

Aquasoil, I heard it doesnt have any nutrients..it it simply for the pH affect and to hold the plants in place.

Sand is only for the decorative effect. But there sand looks amazingly natural, I'm tempted.

Their diffusers look extremly good, but they're pricey.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Looking at products and prices, it all seems more than a bit esoteric for me I guess. 

There are more than enough options for me to the ADA products from companies that have been active in their support of the hobby in the US for a very long time.

I mean it would be nice to have a Hummer I'm sure, but my Amigo has never let me down yet.

Well there was that time out on a sand bar but my wife was driving .....


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## martygreene (Apr 30, 2004)

What I'd like to eventually see is products with a similar look (for the intake/output, and co2 equipment) but made from a hard plastic like acrylic or some such, as opposed to the glass. Glass is nice, but glass is easily broken, and plastic would have longer durability, and probably lower prices.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Plastic would ultimately scratch though.

See if you can find a place near you that makes and / or services neon signs.

Most of them will sell you a length of glass tubing, a decent MAP blow torch is hot enough to heat it for bending, have at it !!!!


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## mpb (Jun 6, 2004)

The products are too pricy and you are not paying for quality but for brand.
I am not saying that the products are not high quality but you can get same quality paying less. They will not be so "cool" but the same quality.


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

How can you comment on the quality if you haven't tried them out?


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Any one of you decides to go for their substrates, check and mark your CO2 bubble rate before you do it, 'cuz the chart ain't gonna work any more. The substrates bring down the pH. Also, Diamond Black is Leonardite, or lignite. I bought 25# of Leonardite for $25, and that was mostly shipping.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> I bought 25# of Leonardite for $25, and that was mostly shipping


Was it in a compacted form? The thing I like about Diamond black is that it doesn't get into the water column. I've tried peat before and hated it because it got everywhere. So what would you do if you used a Co2 controller to control your Co2? Set it at a lower pH or higher?


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

glass-gardens.com said:


> Most of them will sell you a length of glass tubing, a decent MAP blow torch is hot enough to heat it for bending, have at it !!!!


My first lesson with glass blowing was that hot glass looks just like cold glass...

It is fun though.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

BlueRam said:


> My first lesson with glass blowing was that hot glass looks just like cold glass...
> 
> It is fun though.


You and I learned the same lesson it would appear, although mine was from making stained glass.

Second lesson learned, cut glass shard are alarmingly sharp.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

IUnknown said:


> Was it in a compacted form? The thing I like about Diamond black is that it doesn't get into the water column. I've tried peat before and hated it because it got everywhere. So what would you do if you used a Co2 controller to control your Co2? Set it at a lower pH or higher?


No, it is coal dust and not in the larger grain size as Diamond Black. I used quite a lot of it in one setup, not so much in my last setup. It didn't affect the pH except in one case where I was sloppy and didn't properly cover it with enough gravel.

I've used peat on many occasions and as long as I have 2 or more inches over it, there's not a mess. The only stuff that made a mess that wouldn't resolve was potter's clay, and that occurred when transplanting some very rooty roots as seen here:








:hihi:


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

When there are so many products out there right now, reasonably priced to boot that do an excellent job, I think it's reasonable to speculate that ADAs pricing is as much due to name brand as it is due to any presumed superiority of product.

In fact, I would find it very hard to believe that anything that ADA markets doesn't have an much more reasonably priced alternative already commonly available in US markets that does as good a job.


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## csfish (Sep 29, 2003)

Isn't the above discussion like saying "I can get a car 'like' a Mercedes Benz SL65 AMG (http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/models/class_overview.jsp&modelCode=sl_class_main) for 1/10th the cost? It's just nice to see these kinds of products available in North America. If the market doesn't support this kind of stuff, then that's the way it goes....


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Actually it's more akin to an Eddie Bauer Explorer is still just an Explorer with an expensive name.

I have heard all of the hype about ADA, I just haven't seen anything to prove to me that it's an better than anything else on the market, definitely not so in a manner that would justify the cost.

Take away the Amano name and what do you have that would justify the cost?


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

I'm sure that there will be a decent handfull of people trying out the substrate/fert system. You will have to live vicarously and see if it meets the hype. I might try it. I know others that will be.


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## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

IMHO much of the ADA line is luxury goods. Having seen, held and assembled, but not used in the long term, some of the product line I can state the quality in some if the items is definitely higher then the norm we are used to. The CO2 regulator, for example, is an extremely fine precision tool. The unit is substantial in heft, the needle valve control has the feel of precision device and I speculate will outlast most of us. Is it worth the price, depends on your income level and desire. Will other devices do the same for less, yes, but they lack the intangible "feel" the ADA device offers.

The hand blown glass check valve with a ruby ball is easily duplicated in function by a $0.79 plastic one. Handling and using the ADA one again imparts a sense of form, design and beauty the inexpensive one lacks. Do you need one as part of your setup? It all comes down to your own sense of aesthetics and budget. 

The ADA line was obviously not designed to be the low cost leader, nor sell in huge #'s. Much of the hardware can be likened to aquarium jewelry that also provides a function.

I think many are looking at this line in the wrong light, function first. If you can get you hands on some of these pieces I think you will change your tune if you have a particular bent towards the beauty in engineering and design, the function can always be replaced with a lesser expensive item. 

A plastic cup shares the same function as a crystal goblet. Each has it's place in the market. It's up to the individual to decide which is apropriate to their own senseabilites


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Somewhere in here is an opportunity for a head to head competition between ADA and the others.

Two tanks, ADA on one, and the most popular alternatives in the other, start from scratch, something like that.

It would be interesting to say the least eh?


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Done it more than a few times. Also been zapped by neon transformers on more than one occasion. I worked with a sign guy for a month or so when I was hired to redo a dance club years ago. Cranky ol guy, but he could do some crazy things with neon.

Stained glass is something I've tried and found out I have no business doing. Luckily no one was hurt.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I think gnatser is making an important point here - it's a point about aesthetics. I apologize in advance for the crude point of this example, but I think it is appropriate...

I have an Audi TT in my garage. For the money I could have purchased a faster car or better handling car. But that car, particularly in the model I chose, really motivated me from a "design" stand point. To my eye, or aesthetic sense, it's clean, simple, and pure of design - a joy every time I get behind the wheel. Does it provide a good price/performance value? Certainly not.

It is NOT a "most bang for the buck" car. But it is still a cranking performance vehicle, and to me, a beauty to behold. It makes me happy.

I suspect this may be the same equation for much of what is offered by ADA. A price/performance judgement is a good way to measure value. But it is not the only way.


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## gnatster (Mar 12, 2004)

Function is quite important, for without it the product is useless. Given the same fuctionality, in my eyes, most of the ADA hardware outshines the competition only for its sheer beauty in design. 

Place an Eheim and an ADA filter side by side. They both serve the same function and may be functional equals. However in industrial design asthetics, to me, the ADA one has more value. BUT, not enough value to justify the price to me at my current lack of income level. 

I'm not saying there are no viable function alternatives. I am saying there are currently no alternatives that marry the asthetics of design with the function. It's all in what one is looking for, some desire function over asthetics and the lower the price point the better. Some are willing to pay more for percieved asthetic design and function. This is why both Wal-Mart and Neiman Marcus are both profitable. 

I only speak of the hardware, I have no data on the substrates or additives and will rely on others to test and report back.


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## fishfry (May 9, 2004)

I agree with what gnatster has said, I have some ADA glassware and other products just don't compete in its sheer beauty. IMO my plant aquarium is like a work of art and beautiful, and I like to have equipment that complements its beauty. There are plenty of alternatives and nobody is saying they are crap and nobody is forcing people to buy ADA over it, but that doesn't mean that ADA can't have a piece of the pie in the US. If they don't survive oh well, not the first time. I plan to use their glassware and substrates because they look nice, but I don't really care about their fertilizers and things you can't see...fleet enema and stump remover work just as well probably for a lot less money. :icon_bigg 

I think for the up and coming business of setting up planted aquariums for companies, doctors, etc. the ADA line may find a very happy home (the kind of people ADG sets up aquariums for  )


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I go to great pains to hide the equipment in my tank, so the ADA aesthetic is lost on me. I don't want it showing, no matter how artsy. Some folks will buy it because they perceive it to be "the best", and they have the money for it. The large part of us are not going to, though. Too busy pinching pennies for the next tank.

I'm making the decision to "Jebo" instead of "Eheim". You can bet I won't go for ADA. I will be somewhat surprised if this line succeeds unless, as fishfry noted, the corporate dollar gets involved.


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## khoile (Jan 27, 2005)

Can we start an ADA pimp club? I'll be King. roud: 

I don't have any ADA products though.


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## wonder woman (Oct 30, 2003)

Fishfry, Gomer, & co., if you are going to work up a group order for O.C. locals, please p.m. me, or post here- I'd definitely be interested in ordering ferts or something.
Thanks!
-Christina


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

One thing I mentioned in the other thread, there seems to be nine different filter models pictured, but only three models offered, and no indication which is which.

http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=26_31

There also aren't any specs on what size filter is intended with what size tank, gph, how much media each model holds, etc. That's something someone's going to need to know before they buy one (at a super high price) to try.


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

Yeesh, and here one of the pro ADA arguments is aesthetics.

Those filters look surprisingly similar to the garbage disposal and there's a reason it's hidden under the sink.


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## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

glass-gardens.com said:


> Yeesh, and here one of the pro ADA arguments is aesthetics.
> 
> Those filters look surprisingly similar to the garbage disposal and there's a reason it's hidden under the sink.


 Because it smells like garbage?

I can totally appreciate gnatster's correlation. This is a "luxury" line of equipment. Like it has been said - we are all armed with knowledge on how to achieve the same results in a much more cost-effective manner. If you can't appreciate the craftsmanship, then you are missing out.


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## cprroy73 (Nov 10, 2004)

The glass intakes and outputs are nice, but pricey.
What is the point of have a nice shiny stainless co2 tank and filter if it is under the tank.

I guess if you have a clear glass door on the cabinet or one of those ugly iron stands.


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

My first time looking at the ADA product line. All I can say is that it looks like a bad dream after eating too much sushi. It reminds me of the Dupla craze of the last century; it was German-made, it had to be good. But, alas, it never took off here due to it's priciness and very few dealers. American enterprise took care of our needs then, as I'm sure it will now. If anything, it will introduce cheaper alternatives into established markets. $700 for the Solar I? My HQI pendant was $219. I could buy three of them for that price. Sleek? Yes, but so was Dupla. Flashy? Definitely. I mean Green Brighty fertilizer? You'd think they could translate it a little better...sounds like pijin English. I'm sure their products do what they cliam, but I'm not buying this one to "try it out," I still have remnant Dupla products scattered about. Perhaps if I won something by ADA from an aquascaping contest, then I'd try it out. I admit, I was a bit excited at first, but I don't think these products will grow better plants or clear our tanks of algae better than what we're using, that's a skill that is developed and refined over time.

I wouldn't say their filters looks like a garbage disposal, or make the correlation that the product was garbage due to that remark, but it does look like my kitchen garbage can with a pump on top. It's just our initial response. It will take a lot more for me to be sold on these products than mere name recognition and "FLASH" value.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> If you can't appreciate the craftsmanship, then you are missing out.


OK, say I have a 55 gallon planted tank and I want to try an ADA Super Jet filter. Which one do I buy? And what media do I get for it? That info should be on the web page with the "add to cart" buttons.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Hypancistrus said:


> OK, say I have a 55 gallon planted tank and I want to try an ADA Super Jet filter. Which one do I buy? And what media do I get for it? That info should be on the web page with the "add to cart" buttons.


 Hypancistrus - http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/showthread.php?p=33570#post33570 Go to the last post for graphs of flowrates of the filters. That's above and beyond as far as I've seen. Most filters come with one GPH figure you can't be so sure about.

Another way I've seen the filters broken down is:
ES600 60-90cm 
ES1200 90-120cm
ES2400 120-180cm

Or in other terms
ES600 20g-58g
ES1200 58g-75g
ES2400 75g-180g

There is a start. The last figures I simply pulled off a google search. If you still have questions then try the Enquiry Page. Jeff is very helpful.

Still looking for more info. www.suiso.com. Read some articles, ask questions, Ryan has a ton of experience with ADA stuff so he can help anyone out. He has lived in Japan and I believes speaks the language as well. Much of the his knowledge is from experience and translating AquaJournals. He's the one that provided the filter graphs.

Hope that helps.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Great info, but it should be on the page selling them! :wink: 

Any idea why there are nine filters pictured but only three offered?


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

GulfCoastAquarian said:


> Because it smells like garbage?


No, because it's a stainless steel industrial looking cyclinder that has no aesthetic appeal, just like the filters.

I appreciate craftmanship, I also know that a high price doesn't always equate to it and ADA doesn't seem to be offering any quantitive information about their products that would allow someone to make a realisitic comparison therefore it reasonable to conclude it's as much hype as substance.

Instead, we just get a bunch of people posting "you just don't get it" whenever anyone questions ADA or Amano.

I guess if driving a gold plated Lexus is what you need to happy, then drive it. 

But please, get off the high horse and stop thinking your love of ADA makes you any more enlightened than the next person. Next thing we'll be hearing is that "some of us are aquascapers, some are just plant growers" baloney.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

This whole business is a 15-20 year flash back to Dupla Days on the APD. People squawked about the cost, some still do.

I set up 4 Dupla systems, 2 full compete systems.
While nice, some things I think are not made to last nearly as much asa ADA hardware.

ADA filters, tanks, equipment hardware does seem to the be the type of things that will last.

I do not care for those lily tubes/intakes, glass rods are *very easy to break*.

Been there and done that.
Then did it again

I guess I'll need to take up glass blowing next.

But most of the hardware products while clostly, are still good for what you are getting.

I might be the nutty DIYer, but many aren't and if you are a LFS, this might be a ticket rather than a hodge podge DIy set up or something that does not intergrate well together.

There is something to be said for a complete system, ADA stomps anything available today in NA.

If you are Church of the Cheap, don't bother. Learn how to blow glass,
Wire, wood work, make your own tanks etc.

Often many end up paying more in the long run.
Again, been there done that, I don't do that any more, but it took some work to get to this point today.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## H.Williams (Feb 24, 2005)

*Reply from Jeff Senske*

Hi all, first time poster, not-so-long time lurker, but I use the ADA pollen glass for my CO2 diffuser and I like it a lot. I thought I'd take the liberty to send some of the questions posted here (mainly the ones by Hypancistrus) to the link that Rolo posted.

Jeff from Aquarium Design Group replied right away. I told him about the discussion here and he wasn't too pleased with it, as you can see below. Here is what he had to say:

--------------------

There has been some discussion on ADA products here:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=130674#post130674



> My apologies for the lack of comprehensive information about Super-Jet series filters on the site. Honestly I did not expand the info. aspect on certain products because of a perceived lack of real interest in those products. While I did want to offer them, I assumed that most serious buyers would contact me (as many have) personally to discuss the finer points. Of course, though, such info. could be included on the site itself. Much of this is still in the very early phases and I will add info. as time and necessity permit. Compared to when we first launced ADA on the site at all (which was only a couple of months ago now), much info. has been added- but primarily in the areas of main interest- like the substrate. Due to the (perceived) high cost of the ADA filters, I simply did not expect much in the way if interest/sales. I am especially surprised there is much inquiry from theplantedtank.net as perhaps no where else have I seen so much ADA-bashing! Critcism is one thing- overt resentment another. I have consequently stayed away from there, as it would seem there are far more negative than positve comments about ADA product, pricing, philosophy, Amano's "arrogance" etc. Who needs that?
> 
> So to answer your questions:


Some of the questions people are wondering regarding the Super Jet filters:

1) Why are there nine models pictures but only three models offered? Which is which?



> 1) There are 9 models shown and 9 models available. However, the sizes beyond the 3 I offer are intended for very large aquariums and their cost- especially after importation is very high. The picture is simply the most usable that I had available to me to easily use on the site and the picture itself is serving more of a graphic purpose there. The 3 models offered are the most equivalent to sizes the US market is already familiar with- such as Eheim 2213, 2215, 2217- and those used on the standard sized and most popular sized tanks (20gal.- 180gal.). You have Super-Jet model ES-600- good for up to 60 gal. tank, ES-1200- good for tanks from 60gal. to 80 gal., and ES-2400 - good for up to 150 gal. In some instances on tanks above 100 gallons, as one might do with any filter model/brand, running more than 1 filter might be advisable.


2) How much media does each filter hold? What media is recommended for them?



> 2) The capacity of those 3 sizes id very much equivalent to capacities of Eheim 2213, 2215, and 2217, though ES-1200 and ES-2400 are slightly larger than their Eheim counterparts. The media recommended for them depends on the user and their needs/goals- no different than with any other canister filter. ADA offers all the equvalent and then many more function-specific filter medias as offered by any other brand. Inother words, there's Carbon, mechanical, biological medias- it's a matter of what the individual hobbyist is after. All the medias are listed with their specific benefits and applications there in the Filtration System section of the site.


3) What size tank is recommended for each filter model?



> 3)See answer #1


4) Do you have any further specs on these filters, such as GPH, electricity used, etc?



> 4) electricity used and GPH specifics- I have the ES-1200 and power consumption is rated at 13 / 16 W, liters per minute is 6. I would need to acquire those specs for the other 2 models, but figure slightly less for the 600 and slightly more for the 2400. I have always tended to go by size recommendations for a particular tank size, and less by GPH, etc. For anyone with a genuine interest in specifics, I will always respond promptly with the requested info. via e-mail.
> 
> Thanks for the inquiry. I would love to more involved with plantedtank.net, but as a "fly-on-the-wall" observer of much of the commentary on myself, ADG, ADA products/Amano, etc., I have felt less than welcome, and opted to focus efforts at XXXXXX.com, where the reception has for the most part been much better. My time available to spend on forums is quite limited so I am not left much time (nor patience) to counter at engage dialog with those who have an obvious resentment of ADA/Amano (for reasons I will never understand) anyway.
> 
> ...


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## glass-gardens.com (Apr 14, 2004)

It's amazing, I can ask why an Eheim or other brand is better than the other guy and get a rational discussion with relevant pertinent info, question Amano and you basically are equated to a lower primate. That's OK, attraction to shiny objects and trying to out do the Jones is a rather primitive instinct in itself.

I remain convinced (more so than ever now) that ADA products are no better than anything else available for a lower price and will remain so until someone takes the time to put up data we can use for a comparison.

I also remain convinced that hype and snobbery is as much part of the ADA / Amano scene as any issues of quality (more so considering some of the things the ADA camp has posted here and elsewhere) in addition to the express opinion of Amano that we're not as "evolved" which is nothing more than arrogant assumption that his vision is the standard.

That being said, I recently canceled my membership and sponsorship of another forum because of the way the ADA groupies deal with Amano critics and quite frankly, I refuse to play any further part in it here.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I find H. Williams post to be very curious. Seems like that post is almost designed to create trouble more than provide information on the ADA filter. Curious. I find it very interesting when an individual’s first post on a board is something that can be construed as a negative or something controversial. This is one of them. 

However, I would like to address a few of the points I find to be of interest in the hope of clearing the air between Mr. Jeff Senske and Planted Tank. 



> I am especially surprised there is much inquiry from theplantedtank.net as perhaps no where else have I seen so much ADA-bashing! Criticism is one thing- overt resentment another. I have consequently stayed away from there, as it would seem there are far more negative than positive comments about ADA product, pricing, philosophy, Amano's "arrogance" etc. Who needs that?


Of course we at Planted Tank have an interest in Amano’s products and his work. We love the stuff! Everything he does is absolutely gorgeous. From aquarium lay outs to his manufactured products. I don’t think Amano receives an undo amount of criticism here. We regard him quite highly http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14399&highlight=Amano, http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14773&highlight=Amano, (just a couple of current examples), and we admire his work. Do we question the price point of his products? Yes, of course we do! Who wouldn't’t wonder the about the value of a $699 filter over a $64.99 Eheim 2213? We work hard for our money! We all try to be educated consumers. Also, realize we have a huge group of DIYers on the site. 

We have reached a point where Mr. Amano has inspired a second generation of magnificent aquascapers. People like Oliver Knott, Luis Navarro and of course, Jeff Senske have begun to capture the public’s eye and imagination. There are going to be people who are going to start to identify with each of the aforementioned artists. Some of those people are going to begin to prefer the work of the other aquascapers over that of Mr. Amano. Blasphemy? To some maybe, but it is an inevitability. Me personally, I think they all are fantastic! I think they all are amazingly talented, but I still tend to favor the innovator! What does strike me as kind of ironic is that one of the most perfect descriptions about Amano’s line of product:



> IMHO much of the ADA line is luxury goods. Having seen, held and assembled, but not used in the long term, some of the product line I can state the quality in some if the items is definitely higher then the norm we are used to. The CO2 regulator, for example, is an extremely fine precision tool. The unit is substantial in heft, the needle valve control has the feel of precision device and I speculate will outlast most of us. Is it worth the price, depends on your income level and desire. Will other devices do the same for less, yes, but they lack the intangible "feel" the ADA device offers.
> 
> The hand blown glass check valve with a ruby ball is easily duplicated in function by a $0.79 plastic one. Handling and using the ADA one again imparts a sense of form, design and beauty the inexpensive one lacks. Do you need one as part of your setup? It all comes down to your own sense of aesthetics and budget.
> 
> ...


was in fact written by an administrator of another planted aquarium forum, and I believe that just about echos the general sentiment here at Planted Tank.

I think I can safely speak for the members of Planted Tank and say we both love and admire the work of Takashi Amano.



> Thanks for the inquiry. I would love to more involved with plantedtank.net, but as a "fly-on-the-wall" observer of much of the commentary on myself, ADG, ADA products/Amano, etc., I have felt less than welcome, and opted to focus efforts at XXXXXX.com, where the reception has for the most part been much better. My time available to spend on forums is quite limited so I am not left much time (nor patience) to counter at engage dialog with those who have an obvious resentment of ADA/Amano (for reasons I will never understand) anyway.


Mr. Senske’s comments that he “felt less than welcome” here at Planted Tank really made me wonder. Did the folks here go after this impressive and talented aquascaper? Well I did a search. I typed “Jeff Senske” into the search function. I came up with four hits, one of which was this very topic. All of the comments but one on Mr. Senske were glowing! Even the one post that was not very complimentary was still a positive remark on the aquascaping skills of Mr. Senske. I did the same search on Aquarium Design Group, and encountered the same thing. Wonderful assessments of incredible work. Here is one thread in particular http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=670&page=3&pp=15&highlight=Aquarium+Design+Group . Any criticisms in the post are absolutely minor. I find it hard to believe Mr. Senske is so thin skinned that he would condemn Planted Tank and feel unwelcome here due to such minor critiques. It doesn't seem to add up. The man is a professional!

I do not understand Mr. Senske’s comments or his position. In fact, they don’t seem to make very much sense to me. It only leads me to believe one thing and that is that Mr. Senske has been somehow misinformed about Planted Tank. Mr. Senske’s participation on Planted Tank is most welcome! He would love to be more involved here and we would love to have him be involved! Think of how much better this site would be with someone like Jeff Senske contributing regularly! I would personally like invite Mr. Jeff Senske to become an active member here on Planted Tank. As I have pointed out previously, he has many admirers here, who would be thrilled to hear his input and critiques! We respect you and your work, Mr. Senske and would look forward to seeing you here on Planted Tank! Once again lets see if we can clear the air. There are over 4100 members here at Planted Tank who would enjoy hearing from you.

Getting back to the post that started all of this, I suspect someone has an axe to grind, and I am certain it is not Jeff Senske! H. William’s type of post in my opinion is mean spirited nonsense. I for one do not appreciate someone trying to incite ill feelings between boards and in turn pit people against each other. All of the valid information conveyed about the ADA filtration units could have easily been done without the inclusion of the negativity about Planted Tank or the sly plug of another website. Inclusion of such information served absolutely no point other than to create problems. By trying to make Planted Tank appear "low brow" only one person has come off appearing "low brow", and that is the individual who instigated this matter.

Mike


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## freeflyer (Feb 3, 2005)

$116 for a glass diffuser  , I guess they just know some people have too much money. Its sad that usually the people who really appreciate nicer things cant afford them. But hey the rich kid who just started keeping aquariums last week can buy all that stuff, So hey good for him and anyone else that can afford it. Some people will always buy the most expensive cause it has to better its more expensive :icon_roll :icon_bigg


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

> Who wouldn't’t wonder the about the value of a $699 filter over a $64.99 Eheim 2213? We work hard for our money!


You have to understand the dollar value there compared to here...They can spend $1000 for a round of golf. Of course we dont pay that here.

Amano will always be an inspiration to everyone in the hobby, because he is the best at what he does!! That doesn't mean we have to spend thousands to get the same results... :icon_bigg 

Of course there will be people out there with nothing better to do with there money than to buy all the Amano products, have someone come in every other day an maintain the tank for them. The folks on this site just happen to enjoy the hobby, an in turn enjoy the end results. The members here probably dont have millions in the bank. He is a buisness man with a very large reputation. Some people will in fact pay for that reputation. He has gone to great lenghts to establish it.

For someone to say the PT is bashin ADA would be insane!! If it were not for him, chances are this forum would not have half the members on it. Time an time again I have read *IN THIS FORUM* How much Amano inspires us. Bashing ADA??? I think not. Paying the prices they are asking??? I think not...

Just my .02



> I for one do not appreciate someone trying to incite ill feelings between boards and in turn pit people against each other. All of the valid information conveyed about the ADA filtration units could have easily been done without the inclusion of the negativity about Planted Tank or the sly plug of another website. Inclusion of such information served absolutely no point other than to create problems. By trying to make Planted Tank appear "low brow" only one person has come off appearing "low brow", and that is the individual who instigated this matter.


Moderators can make short work of this issue!! :wink: With an excess of 4200 people here at the planted tank, an growing fast. I dont think ill feelings between boards is a problem at all. roud:


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

but i'd have to admit these canister filters do look very 'sharp' =)
just my opinion =)

well maybe $600 in my wallet might feel 'sharper' though =p



fishyboy said:


> Look at the filters... gezz 600 bucks. I wonder if they'd beat eheims, i bet they do
> http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/index.php?option=com_wrapper&wrap=ShopADG


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

[rant]

I do have to bring in my 2 cents on one thing here. There are several people who say pretty much that ADA isn't worth a damn with their substrates and ferts because ADA doesn't disclose the contents. These people want some sort of numerical quantification on why ADA ferts/subs are better than other more available stuff. They wan't something like CEC, elemental analysis or something numerical. These people cannot seem to accept the fact that they work better (read: healthier and more vigerous growth) than what seems to be already out there (not saying that carefull crafting in the DIY relm can't duplicate to an extent). Mind you, these comments on how well they work comes from the mouths of what I'd like to call the cream of the crop to the planted world in either growing, scaping or both. ...you don't need to see individual clocking speeds of two racing cars to know who wins when one clearly crosses the finishline much earlier....

[/rant]


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Gomer said:


> [rant]
> 
> I do have to bring in my 2 cents on one thing here. There are several people who say pretty much that ADA isn't worth a damn with their substrates and ferts because ADA doesn't disclose the contents. These people want some sort of numerical quantification on why ADA ferts/subs are better than other more available stuff. They wan't something like CEC, elemental analysis or something numerical. These people cannot seem to accept the fact that they work better (read: healthier and more vigerous growth) than what seems to be already out there (not saying that carefull crafting in the DIY relm can't duplicate to an extent). Mind you, these comments on how well they work comes from the mouths of what I'd like to call the cream of the crop to the planted world in either growing, scaping or both. ...you don't need to see individual clocking speeds of two racing cars to know who wins when one clearly crosses the finishline much earlier....
> 
> [/rant]



Bottom line is, how much money ya wanna spend... :wink:


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Momotaro said:


> Think of how much better this site would be with someone like Jeff Senske contributing regularly! I would personally like invite Mr. Jeff Senske to become an active member here on Planted Tank.


Strongly, and warmly agreed!


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## H.Williams (Feb 24, 2005)

Momotaro, before you accuse me of all these nasty things, e-mail Jeff and ask him if the comments are in fact his.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Wow. I guess I owe an apology here. First though I must say the comments I made that are being analyzed here were in a private e-mail to an individual and I am more than a little disappointed to see a correspondence to a single person who contacted me personally- not on any forum- posted on a major site word for word. I guess that's what I get for letting emotion rule my tone there. I think we all would agree the way one speaks in a private conversation (lexicon, etc.) might be different than when giving a public address. But I betray myself- and I can blame no one else for that. 

I do apologize for lumping everyone in here at Planted Tank. My sentiments are derived, however, from the persistence of really just a few individuals that take a very harsh tone toward the ADA products based on little other than price. They are free to do so. I just take it a bit too personal because the tone of it is so resentful. It goes beyond commentary. But again, they are free to do so. So far ADA product is selling amazingly- far exceeding our expectations- so in the end, I need to suck it up, not internalize every negative comment about ADA, be a professional, and move on. I have just worked very very hard with the goal of doing nothing more than expanding the scope and potential for the planted tank hobby, products available, and all that. This one guy who chronically calls me, Amano, etc. "arrogant" - I mean, that's getting personal and I just don't see the need for that. Also, this same INDIVIDUAL dwells on a particular statement that has been taken totally out of context about "aquascapers versus plant-growers". I NEVER said anything about the superiority of one over the other. All I was expressing (trying to anyway) was that a lot of the ADA line has been developed from the standpoint of the particular needs of aquascaping- which can be (as I pointed out in that statement) different than the needs of just growing plants. You can grow plants in Kitty litter but from the objective of trying to create something really nice to look at you may want t o choose something more natural. You may need vastly different species of plants to grow back from major trimming a a more equal rate, you may need to quickly get rid of a film on the surface, all sorts of things. The ADA products are little more geared toward these aquascaping objectives. To just grow healthy plants and enjoy your tank, have fun with it, etc., a lot of these things are not such an issue- you can do great things without getting into really specific ( and yes, realtively speaking- expensive) accessories. That's the problem with the forum setting- someone can just do that to somethng you say/said. If you are away for a few days and can not respond, all these people are gettingthis out of context portrayal of you and maligning your motives and that just stinks. It's a little hard not to take some of that personal sometimes. No arrogance involved. I am not an arrogant person and neither is Amano. He is actually a very cool guy and does not deserve to be labeled by a few translated comments he made where tone, inflection, and intent can not be 100% conveyed. I even privately asked certain individuals that obviously have an axe to grind to call me or allow me to call them personally to clear the air. Even now I fear I won't be able full express everything that comes to mind on this issue as I said in the private message that became public- I am a horrible typist! So PLEASE - if you have any questions, concerns, or want to get to the bottom of any issue reagarding ADA products- I invite you to give me call. Call me collect even! I'll pay for the call! I am here to and love to HELP! I would deeply appreciate and respect the opportunity to show that I am dedicated to positve promotion of this hobby and will likely talk your ears off answering questions, engaging discussion, etc. NO ARROGANCE AT ALL! I PROMISE! That's not what I am about. Please believe me on that. 

So much more i would like to say, but I have probably said too much. I thought these forums were about planted tanks and the expansion of the knowledge base anyway- that's why the personal stuff and the persistent pointing out of the obvious about ADA products doesn't make a lot of sense to me. PLease bear in mind that I am still learning about the line myself. Some the quantitative data and stuff that folks are legitimately requesting- I just have not got my hands on it yet! We only started this 3 months ago! Please forgive me for not having every last bit of info. researched and posted yet. It will come! I also am learning the ropes of a very new and still quite immature market (no I am not calling actual people immature!) I could have waited, sure. But many don't require a that sort of knowledge. And a lot of peolpe don't find the cost so excessive. Look, I am not a rich guy either. I could not purchase my dream set-up at this point in my life- and I am in the business! That's partly why the arrogance comments really hurt. It's so not who I am. 

So, in summary- I am sorry for anything and everything I either said or implied negative about Planted Tank forum. I will do my best to not take personally negative comments about ADA - everyone is entitled to their opinion. Please know my sole goal with the ADA line was to offer something new. I wish the prices were lower- as the wholesale price- the price ADA charges me for the goods- is actually amazingly competitive. I only wish it were approporiate to disclose that price level- because it would silence much of the ill-informed comments about Amano/what he thinks his stuff is worth. It is the importation/freight charges that drive that diffuser up to $116.00. Isn't it- in the end- just as simple as "if you don't want it don't buy it"?? Can it not just be left at that? One last point that comes up time and again- the ADA canister filter that would be compared to an Eheim 2213 is not $600. It's $350. Still more, yes, but everyone has become accustomed to paying basically cost on filters like 2213- that's a long story how that happened (they used to be around $200!) . There's no way to import something from Japan in small #s and be altogether competitve- obviously. And if a few folks want to use ADA just because they think it's cool or because they trust it implicitly because Amano uses it- what's so wrong with that? Why is it OK to make fun of or berate those people when those same people are never found doing the same to DIYers? I would never imply anything judgemental about someone choosing DIY, yet there's an evident double standard toward those choosing ADA. Now THAT I don't get and that's what I find hard not to take personal. Phil Edwards summed it pretty good I thought:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to bring this up for fear of starting a flame war but I feel the need to say this for those of you out there who associate closely with the following statement. However, I'm sick and tired of folks trashing ADA, ADA products, ADG, and those folks who wish to have ADA products.... 


Quote:
Originally Posted by jsenske
I don't understand the need to point out that it's expensive or to say ADA hasn't "supported" the US scene. They have never really had a viable entre/inlet to this market. 




Aqua Design Amano has been a HUGE, I mean SERIOUSLY HUGE, supporter of the Aquatic Gardeners Association for many years. What do they get out of it? *nothing* They've advertised in the most expensive location in TAG for three, going on four years now, with 75% of those issues going to a country where ADA products weren't sold until very recently. Amano himself agreed to send and have translated AquaJournal articles to the AGA *FOR FREE*. He's even come to the US twice now for the AGA conferences for no compensation. 

What do you call that? Poor financial management and business acumen? Hardly. 

That's support for the AGA and the US planted aquarium hobby as a whole. 

Yes, ADA products are expensive. They're expensive to make and expensive to ship 4500+ miles to Houston. They're also of extremely high quality, which, for those of us willing to pay for that quality perform very well and last a long time. That's quality *and* long term value. 

Economics 101: Capitalist business is based on the ability and willingness of a population to spend their resources on a product. ADA and ADG are both businesses that have found a niche providing a product to a segment of a population with both the means and desire to purchase that product. If you're not willing to pay the prices needed to have these products, that's fine, don't buy the products. Just don't trash the product and those of us who have the desire and ability purchase them.

~Phil

That being said better than I could say it, so long as I am welcomed here at Planted Tank.net, I would love to make it part of my daily routine to check in and contribute anywhere I think I might be of help as well as to enrich my own knowledge about my true passion of planted aquaria. I welcome the future dialog and thanks so much for the opportunity. Please forgive me for taking things too personal and reacting too much on on emotion and not enough on logic, reason, and maturity.


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## Rolo (Dec 10, 2003)

Jeff, nicely said. 

We welcome you to the Planted Tank and look forward to your contribution! :icon_bigg


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## H.Williams (Feb 24, 2005)

Jeff, I am really REALLY sorry. I always assume that e-mail correspondance is "public." I and most everyone I know would never say anything in an e-mail that I wouldn't say publically. I kind of thought that when I said "some of the question people were wondering" I guessed you knew I would be sharing your response. (To get really technical, any e-mail you send is "public" as you can't force someone into a contract by putting something like "the contents of this e-mail are confidential" in your reply... you should include a tick box on your enquiry form that a person has to read and agree to before sending THEIR message.)

Again I sincerely apologize... I myself didn't like all the ADA bashing in the pics thread Marc posted and thought your comments were right on the money.... I never meant it to get out of hand.


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Thanks so much. This is all just so new to many of us- myself as much as anyone- and so many of us are so very passionate about this hobby that it's hard not get emotion involved sometimes. What I think is so cool though is that in the end we can always come to some understanding and move FORWARD! Thanks again and I look forward to participating here- not just as an agent of ADA either! But also as a dedicated hobbyist with still a lot to learn.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

Have any of you guys ever looked at a catalog of equipment for Marine aquariums? A ton of that stuff (like protein skimmers) from a *lot* of different companies is expensive too - like in the quadruple digits!

I feel guilty for starting the bashing in the pics thread... people jump on me all the time because I use Seachem products instead of Gregg Watson's bulk products - one guy (Rexx Grigg I think) said "you have more dollars than sense." :icon_roll


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## rwong2k (Dec 24, 2004)

well in my opinion, there's definently more than one way to maintain our aquariums, there's different objectives/goals, different water conditions, different plants and fish we all keep, and of course there's different ways to spend our $$ on reaching these objectives, so if PMDD works or store stuff works and if you feel comfortable spending your $$ on it then it's really your choice, (well some products are better and more $ for a reason...)

but those silver (tin/steel or ...) canister filters sure do look nice, eyecandy maybe, does it work the same as the cheaper filters probably,

acutally i lost my train of thought.. heh ok back to studying...(break's over ...) 
:icon_conf 



Hypancistrus said:


> Have any of you guys ever looked at a catalog of equipment for Marine aquariums? A ton of that stuff (like protein skimmers) from a *lot* of different companies is expensive too - like in the quadruple digits!
> 
> I feel guilty for starting the bashing in the pics thread... people jump on me all the time because I use Seachem products instead of Gregg Watson's bulk products - one guy (Rexx Grigg I think) said "you have more dollars than sense." :icon_roll


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

The ADA canister filters are all stainless steel with an Iwaki magnet drive pump instead of the impeller driven Eheim. They receive the most favorable commentary of just about anything on the 90cm ADA tank (complete system) we have here at Gallery ADG. People seem to think they are really cool looking- industrial aesthetic and all. 
While they are totally quiet and extremely well made, so is an Eheim. In effect, they are not "doing" anything different or special that an Eheim isn't doing in terms of function. It's mainly just a different look and, of course, different materials- (steel vs. plastic). They were to some extent designed to be diplayed outside the ADA "GARDEN STAND" which is metal and open construction and you see the filters. etc. Not a look for everyone, but it does exist. In the view of ADA (which I personally share) the look of the stainless steel is simply more pleasing and goes with the rest of the products as a "system" better than green plastic. There is a quality of construction variable also with, again, the stainless steel vs. plastic. 
The same aesthetic principles apply to the TOWER 10 and TOWER 20 which houses the pressurized CO2 cylinder itself- it is believed to look nicer than just a open cylinder exposed. Just a different take on aesthetics- nothing more, nothing less.

Let me add also that ADA does not just cater to high-end "managed-aquaria" oriented clientele. In fact, the maintenance side of ADA is extremely small. The heart of the ADA system- the substrate- was designed to actually make keeping a balanced planted tank more accessible to the average person/hobbyist- someone without a lot of previous experience or knowledge. From many converstaions with Amano personally, the real goal is to make keeping a plant tank of any price level easier for more to enjoy. Most of the principles and marketing have been developed for the Japanese/Asian market. There is a lot that ADA still does not know about marketing/offering their product in other markets (such as US). I can assure you they want t o learn and we are working with them closely to devlope that. In the meantime, in these early days, we can only use/offer what already exists. Rest assured though that through some persistence and dedication we will eventually have access to more and better and more reasonably priced goods here in the US. It just takes time. Thank goodness for the early-adopters who have really helped get this process going- and believe me- IT'S GOING!


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Also, on a side note- and maybe this should be moved or be it's own thread but we are about to post the first in a long series of translated AQUA JOURNAL articles- many from the very new/current issues- complete with photos, etc. I have hired a professional translator for this. This cost is enormous but we will offer it for free- for all to view. I think this will serve to further dispell many myths, mysteries, and misconceptions about ADA, as well of course- as enlighten and inform. I just received the March 2005 issue and let me just say- it is stunning- dedicated entirely to driftwood- use, placement, ACQUISITION (!) etc. I am also working on bringing in the fine driftwood Amano often uses to the US. Now there's something everyone can agree on!! Nice wood is precious resource, as most of us have found when trying to locate it. I will keep eveyone posted!


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

I can't wait keep us updated.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

jsenske said:


> The heart of the ADA system- the substrate- was designed to actually make keeping a balanced planted tank more accessible to the average person/hobbyist- someone without a lot of previous experience or knowledge.


Well, from my perspective, when I browse the substrates offered, I see there's three types of Aqua Soil, three types of Power Sand, three types of Decorative Sand, and then add to that a whole slew of substrate additives. As a non expert, I wouldn't have the first clue as to where to begin with mixing it, layering it, etc! 

I use Eco Complete because all I have to do is put it in (no rinsing) and that's it.

For me anyways, I'd need a guide to use as a starter so I know what to mix, what to put in first, what to put on top, etc. Just a suggestion!!!


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

There is a chart on each substrate description as to how much to use of each. So much of this I have posted elsewhere, so if the interest is there- I'd be happy to go back over the substrate system basics here and get some threads going. Once you get a feel for the substrate system, there's really nothing to it- just the layering. 

In a nutshell:
POWER SAND on the very bottom- 1st layer
then you add CLEAR SUPER and BACTER 100 (and PENAC if you are really feeling wild and crazy- but I am not about to open that can of lighter fluid any more! I use it, but I understand fully the skepticism about it). Descriptions of these 2 products functions are on the site- just click on them. Also, TOURMALINE BC is a newer additive that Amano is using in most new layouts and it would be added with the CLEAR SUPER and BACTER 100. The POWER SAND "SPECIAL" comes with the BACTER 100 and CLEAR SUPER already added to it so you do not have to buy it separately. 

then AQUA SOIL on top of that. Like I said, the ratios for AQUA SOIL to POWER SAND are there in a chart that's on each description section- it covers the common sizes/dimensions of 20gal., 58gal., 75gal., and 180gal. Most use this as a reference for how much to use with other more "non-standard" dimensions. 

I am totally open for any questions or dialog also. Maybe even a separate forum for posting ADA product-specific questions 
might be an idea. I'd be more than happy to check it and respond daily.


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

FYI Powersand Special has Bactor 100 and Super Clean already in it.


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## Hypancistrus (Oct 28, 2004)

That's helpful info Jeff, thanks a lot! (right click, save as)

I might try it someday... however I recently rebuilt my tank after taking it apart 100% to catch 14 baby ancistrus... I originally added two as babies a year ago and they turned out to be a male and a female, lucky me. 

One more question... do you have to rinse any of the ADA substrate, or is it like Eco Complete (not sure how familiar you are with that) in that you add it and fill the tank with no rinsing? Does it cloud easy if disturbed? Again you can dig all you want in the Eco Complete and it won't kick up any clouding that can't be quickly handled by the tank filters.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Well said Jeff! I am glad you to the time to respond explained your position to us all. I hope you did not take my previous statements as a critique or worse yet as an offense, but as a means of opening up a dialog, clearing the air, and as an invitation to become more active here at Planted Tank. An invitation I happily see you have accepted! roud: I am sure you will be very well received!!

All that being said, I would love to take one of those canisters out for a spin! What a neat piece of equipment. It appears to be quite solid and I imagine, darn close to indestructible. I was interested in a bubble counter a few years ago, but the only distributer available to me at the time was in Rome so the whole purchase was pretty cost prohibited!

I am currently collecting equipment to set up a G aquarium for the purpose of growing some sword plants. I don't plan on doing any aquascaping at this time, just growing. I am planning an automated, pressurized system. I was thinking about a power reactor, but would a product like the Pollen Glass Beetle be a good choice? Are the diffusers very efficient? Do they need to be cleaned often? I already run an external reactor, and might be up to trying out something different on the smaller 37G, and would consider one of Amano's diffusers if they are up to the task I have at hand!  

Mike


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## PJAN (Feb 18, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> I was thinking about a power reactor, but would a product like the Pollen Glass Beetle be a good choice? Are the diffusers very efficient? Do they need to be cleaned often? I already run an external reactor, and might be up to trying out something different on the smaller 37G, and would consider one of Amano's diffusers if they are up to the task I have at hand!
> 
> Mike


Well, I tried one. From a different brand (Italian).
In the 180 Gallon tank it did nothing. Well, of course you could see the tiny CO2 bubbles coming out, but even at 3 bps the PH wasn't getting any lower.
I now use a Aquamedic 1000, hooked on the cannister.

But I did not test it in smaller tanks. My guess is that it will work, but you will have significant loss of CO2.

Further, the store told me that they will not last for ever and have to be replaced every 6 months (??). Mmm, rather expensive. Even the Italian brand costs about 40 $ over here.

Gr. PJAN


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## jsenske (Dec 20, 2004)

Honestly, Mike, for your application I think a reactor will serve you better. The ADA diffusers are nice, but essentially a diffuser is a diffuser when it comes to function. Here again, I freely admit that there's no real functional advantage to something like the ADA diffusers- it's an aesthetics issue. The quality is good, and the functionality is superb - but in the end, it's an item that is designed more from the standpoint of harmonizing nicely with the rest of the ADA line- ideal for a complete ADA system (though I sell plenty of them to folks with all sorts of different systems/configurations). I still like reactors for a lot of applications and continue to use them especially on custom installations where a diffuser is not practical at all. AQUA MEDIC REACTOR 1000 has been our first choice for some time. 

To answer PJAN- I can assure 100% that the diffusers in no way need to be replaced after 6 months!! They are very easily cleaned and are designed to last a very long time. That seems exemplary of some of the general "myth" that gets around about ADA products.


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## Mad78 (Oct 23, 2007)

id rather buy a new car


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

*hmmm*

Wow. This was quite a discussion. My $.02:

I believe that if I have the $ I can spend it how I want on what I want. The question then becomes what meanings are attributed to that decision. Some might think it insane or incompetent of me to "waste" money, while others might interpret those decisions as "prudent" investments. There will always be people on both sides of the issue. I do not have an ADA filter. Would I like one? Yes. Do I think it is worth the price? I don't know but I certainly question it - its very expensive. Instead I have an Eheim Pro II 2026 which has worked well for me for quite a few years. But, conversly I also posses an ADA tank, Diffuser, Substrate and Ferts. I have used them almost exclusively since learning about them. Yet, I also do not have or use ADA lighting fixtures. So where does that place me along the "cool" spectrum? I don't know but I also don't care.

I made my decision to use these products because I believe that: 1. They work and they work well. There is ample evidence (both anecdotal and proven) that they accomplish what they advertise and what I want them to accomplish. The substrate, by far is the best thing out there IMHO, but it does have its downside compared to other substrates (like Flourite, EcoComplete, etc.) I have been able to successfully grow plants in Aquasoil that when using Flourite, I had to regularly add root tabs just to keep them alive (all other conditions being the same). 2. I love art and I collect posters, paintings, sculpture, etc. And ADA glassware, for me, are works of art. Therefore, why not combine my love of art with my love of this hobby with ADA products. I won't debate whether it is a "luxury" item or not; such a debate is relative to the income of the individual. However, I can say that in terms of simple quality (e.g. the inherent value of an item versus the perception of that item's value) I believe it *can* (although not always) be worth the price relative to one's spending limitations and interest. I can say with a certainty that the ADA glass products are excellent. I have had experience with other tanks, diffusers, etc. They do not match them. Period. But again this is a question of both cost as well as aesthetics. I certainly was satisfied with All-Glass tanks at the beginning of this hobby. Indeed for a long time I was highly skeptical and reticent at having an "open" tank without a canopy (which I thought attractively hid the lights in a smart and convenient way). My tastes have changed over time.

I, like others, have exclusively used Seachem products in the past; I used both water conditioners and liquid fertilizers (and indeed were criticized about the folly of using liquid ferts instead of dry). They are excellent and IMO nothing beats Prime for what it does. However, I also use ADA ferts. What does that mean? It means that I have, through experience and education, approached this hobby with both passion and reason, as a negotiation between the costs and the benefits of a given product. It is a hobby after all, aren't we trying to* enjoy* it? It is my sincere hope that in the future people not associate personal bias or animosity against others simply because of their preferences towards a particular brand or item. It does little to further the hobby or increase our own knowledge. I welcome J. Senske to the board as I would all who constructively contribute and if someone with his record of results (_however he achieved those results_) can post with valuable information then I think they should be embraced - like everyone else similarly experienced and knowledgeable.


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## tropicalfish (Mar 29, 2007)

Mad78 said:


> id rather buy a new car


Congrats, you just bumped a two year old topic.


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## styxx (Jul 2, 2003)

lol...he wasn't the only one!


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

quite the rep he's building on a 3rd post.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> quite the rep he's building on a 3rd post.


How true! Had to look long and hard to find this thread to make a comment like that! :hihi: 

Just and update from my end:

Tried the ADA diffuser, and love it.
Tried the complete ADA substrate system, and love it.
Haven't tried the filter. 


Mike


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