# ADA 60P---Failure....Low Tech again.



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Most Recent Picture:

















*START*


Since everyone with ADA tanks gets to do a long thread, showing all their things getting shipped in, I feel like I get to do the same. 

I got a 60P for my wedding present from a good friend/member on the board. I will keep him nameless, unless he wants to tell, because I don't want people thinking he is just throwing out ADA tanks to people he knows.

I knew about this in advance and started my plans. First, I was going to tear down my 20L and replace the tank with this. Would not have been a bad idea but I want to finish that tank which will be a bit, plus start something new.



That said, I got this on Saturday and thought it looked very good were set it down:









I got this 30 inch PC fixture awhile ago for $20 new. I used it on a low tech 20 long (raised) and it worked OK. A bit too much light but algae was minor. I am starting without co2, but dosing Excel so we will see what happens. CO2 is in the future.










I knew the light wouldn't fit but had some other cool stuff. I am not sure if I am going to put the inline heater on this tank or my 20 long.










I am trying to use existing furnature that is proving to be a pain. My Ecco 2234 didn't fit so I had to shave off the top.










Back to the light. Got out my little miter box and went to work









Before...









After...










I cut 6 inches off, repositioned the light holders, made some wiring shorter and all that. Hard work but only took about 45 min









Did the plumbing. I started with both the intake and outlet on the same side. The intake looked really bad with the tubing extending over the tank. I moved it to the other side, looks better, but not great. I need to decide if I want to sacrifice the shelf above. I kind of like how I got everything to fit in a small space so not sure what I will do. I need 90 degree elbows









Lastly, filled the tank. It was easy as I had a 1 gallon pitcher so it only took 17 trips to the sink and back. Pretty cloudy. 














Obviously, at this point, it isn't a planted tank. My goal is to do as close as I can to a true dutch scape on my first attempt at a 60P. Though it is way small than a dutch tank should be, I do feel it has good dimensions for the style. 

I am starting without CO2. My reasoning for that is my first planted tank, many years ago, went so well. I went from very low tech to fairly high tech over about a year. I want to do similar, starting with better stuff and move faster.

Now to the "specs" (revised)
Tank: ADA 60P
Light: Aquaticlife T5HO 24wX4
Filter: Eheim 2215 (may switch back to the 2234, not sure)
Pipes: ADA Poppy glass outflow, generic DIY acrylic inflow (for now)
Heater: Hydor 200w inline
CO2: Trustly beverage single stage regulator w/ solenoid and Fabco needle valve. JBJ style bubble counter to Atomic inline diffusers
Substrate: ADA Aqua Soil Amazona (Regular)
Other: Coralife inline 9 watt UV
Stand: Ikea Besta shelving unit w/ door

Plants:
None, obviously. Will update. Will be a collectoritis tank. I want to add as much as I can.

Live stock:
Not sure. It may be community, it may be single species. For the first time, I am not going to try to go small. I may go with Congo Tetras or some type of Rainbow fish if I can fit. In basic research, seems like my tank is too small. We will see. Last priority.


End Goal:
I really want to do a successful dutch style scape but I don't want a large tank. To me, a dutch style tank is not as simple as having a lot of plants, it's about arrangement, manicuring, and soft-scaping. I don't know that I can achieve that, it's my goal.

My real goal is to impress my wife enough to have her want this in our bedroom. My 6 gallon is in there now and she loves it. I want to hopefully show her I can do better, have her move the nano to her office (or mine) and move this in our master. I think I will like it in my little recording studio but it seems a bit big now that I have done the work. Shoehoring the filter was a pain, CO2 will be a pain, heater may be a pain. Plus, I don't like water over all my vinyl. 


Long story, not to much going on. I am off to AFA tomorrow, hopefully. We will see what the wife lets me get. Plants are easy, hoping to got some lily pipes. I want SS ones but they only have the inflow, or did as of last time. I may still buy that and hope to get the outflow online or something. We will have to see.

Thanks for looking,
Matt


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cool... mini dutch you say? Following 

I just got my 60P too recently. I haven't started my build thread yet but as I'm planning along, I think it's starting to be a little on the "collectoritis tank" side too. It's so hard to keep it simple! LOL


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

Nice equipment!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So I have a bit of lily pipe dilemma here. I really want SS ones but AFA only has the intake. I actually was thinking about going with off brand but they won't fit. 

However, with the Eheim piece, flow is pretty strong and I think anything similar to it may be too strong for an all stem tank. Now I am thinking a Do!aqua poppy glass. I am not fond of glass but I have no choice in this style. 

Any advice? I don't want to do half glass half SS. I am thinking the poppy glass is better, even though I don't like glass. I may post this in the equipment forum as well.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

I personally like Cal Aqua pipes... but I can certainly appreciate SS for not having to clean them as much, not to mention durability. 

I saw some Gush and BorneoWild SS pipes on Southern Oak Aquatics...

http://southernoakaquatics.com/filter-pipes/


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## pwolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

I can vouch for BW and gush being high quality products. I own both and they are beloved!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have considered the BW SS pipes. I have a few Cal Aqua things that I don't fit my personal aesthetics but they are super durable. I have had a drop checker for many years, dropped it more than once on hard wood and it is still going strong. 

I will say part of my reasoning for thinking ADA/Do!aqua is I can buy it tomorrow. I don't like mail order on general but more so on things that are pricey, probably over priced, that I just want to spoil myself with. I haven't had money to spend in awhile on this stuff so I want it now. Who knows, I may spend my money all on plants. I may just do the outflow for now as this is the first tank in a long time I can hide things. I could do a spray bar if it goes right, outside of trimming.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Edit: never have done pics off phone, can't figure this out

So I ended up deciding on an ADA Poppy Glass outflow. I couldn't decide if I wanted a matching outflow or a violet glass. The didn't have the poppy glass inflow so that made my decision easy, I got neither and spent the rest on plants. I have never been to AFA on the weekday and it was great, so much personalized attention. They do carry their own stands as well, not nearly as nice as ADA but look good in the right color (dark grey). The wood ones look decent for the money but look a bit cheap. Cost is around $200 for a 60p. Will take that into consideration if I put my 60p where my 20l is.

Here is what I got:









Not to be a brand whore but there bag is cool too:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

The bag was $20 by itself?

v3


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## melanotaenia (Mar 26, 2013)

you are so lucky to have AFA so close. I am very jealous


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> The bag was $20 by itself?
> 
> v3


Free. 20th anniversary is the print. I would never pay for a bag.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Just kidding.

v3


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## ADAtank (Jul 26, 2011)

Are you sure that bag was free??? Lol jk


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## Gooberfish (Mar 27, 2012)

Looking good Matt! Can't wait to see the next stages...


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, this tank is going in another direction. I was being stubborn about my 20L. It is on it's 4th or 5th try, finally kind of coming together and I just wanted to finish it. It was the first time I felt like I did decent at a natural style tank so I just wanted to see it through. At this point, it just doesn't interest me all that much and I got far along enough to know how it would have looked. 

On the flip side, the 60P is just too big for the room it is in. It's about 150 sq ft. On top of that, about 1/3 or more of that room is taken up by my recording equipment, vinyl collection, etc. The tank just looks out of place. It's cool to know my Ecco 2234 will fit in here and I got verification that some paintball co2 setups will work but I just can't have the 60p in the room.


That said, I will tear down the 20 long and move the 60P in the space. I bought an Ikea Besta stand which I think looks nicer than the stands at AFA (not sure if they are branded as Archaea or not but I think they are exclusive to AFA, not sure). I haven't set up the Ikea stand, I hope I bought the right parts, lol, but it will have to have about a 1/2 in gap for the door. The AFA one fits the 60P perfectly so it may be a better choice for those who may be interested (can't find it on there site but they had more than a few in stock).

In addition, I go from a 65 watt PC fixture to a 4 bulb T5HO fixture that should be more light than I should ever need. I will now use CO2. 

I was hoping to get this all together tonight but between stopping by Ikea on the way home, then Berkeley Bowl (both pretty tiring), I won't lie, I am exhausted and popped a beer the second I got home. I will assemble the stand tonight at the least, likely drain the 60P and start the rest tomorrow.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Cool man... I just got the Besta stand for my 60P a week ago. I opted for the glossy gray door for it.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Cool man... I just got the Besta stand for my 60P a week ago. I opted for the glossy gray door for it.


I couldn't decide so I went with the Black-Brown. I do like the glossy door but I didn't know how it would go. We may do a small Besta setup for our TV and stuff to tie things together. 

Just put it together and looks pretty good. I have slight fitment issues right now. One thing I didn't consider was height. I didn't have measurements to go off of and it's about 4.5 in lower than the stand it is replacing. On the flipside, the 60p is about taller, making it 2.5 in shorter. I didn't want to add the legs but that can be an easy fix. The hard part is I really don't want to go back out to Ikea tomorrow to get them as it's about 45 min away without traffic. 

I am about to drain the 60P and see how it looks. I hope it is light enough to move with substrate. That is about all I have in me tonight. I was so ready to tear down my 20 long and setup the 60P at 12:00, got home and I am absolutely dead.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So this shows the difference in height. I kind of felt my 20L was to low, going from a 29 gallon. In our new place, I like the tank not having to be the main fixture of the room. I am kind of iffy if the 60P is too low but think it will look understated. My wife actually really likes how low it is so it will stay as is for now. 

I am trying to figure out if I have the energy to tear down the 20L tonight. I may just transfer the fish, maybe not. I don't know what to do with all the HC and DHG. I may be able to move it with some help and go to DSM until I figure out what to do, put it where the 60P was but that thing is heavy with that slope. Even with rocks out, I have about 40-60lbs of substrate. 



Anyway, here is the height comparison:


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'm starting my build thread in about a week but I'm slowly getting stuff together. But, yeah the Besta is too short for my taste. I was going to buy the legs too but they only added around 4" in height. I wanted at least 8" and then I started considering building a DIY pedestal and painting it. I felt too lazy and wanted a cheap solution. Then I was looking at my speaker stands that are cement blocks with aluminum rods... as shown here:








Then it hit me, I'll get 8" cubed cement blocks! 3 tightly grouped gets me 60cm long, fits perfect. Lol sounds ghetto, but it works... industrial meets chic.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

That looks pretty good. The glossy door is different than what I saw as well. The other one is black and grey with a pattern. I like the straight grey. Nice to know there are more than a few options if you go this route.



Now I have to decide how to run my pipes. I know they need to go on the left side so people don't play with them and the front pipe should go close to the glass front. I can do small holes for each pipe but that will limit me to my pipe position. Or I can try to find a wide grommet and do it that way. 

Today I will tear down the 20 long and replace it with the 60P. It's more of a pain that it should be since I have autodosers and a lot of inline. I actually will have more usable room in this stand (I think) due to no center brace. I hope I have enough room for one shelf but I am not counting on it. 

I hope I am able to move the 20 long so I can get started sooner on the 60P. I really don't want to have to pull up all the HC/DHG at once. We will see. It's going to take me a lot longer to tear down the 20L that it will be to start the 60P. 


On that note, if anyone wants a 20 long and is willing to pick up, PM me. I have two, the one I was using has scratches. I believe the other one does not as I think I mixed them up on my start. I have both this wood stand (in very mediocre condition), as well as a metal stand. I live in Concord CA so if you would like to pick up, let me know. I could probably throw in a Coarlife T5NO fixture as well.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Out with the old, in with the new:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, now onto the stand. I always like to see what others do under the tank, especially high tech or a lot of inline. I have to be honest, I didn't really know how to fit this in so I just did my best. It's a pretty tight fit.

One thing I did not take into account was the hole sizes for lily pipes. I thought 1.5in would be more than enough. However, I did not consider the quick disconnect. It still can come out, you just have to pull the grommets out too so they will not be permanent for now. I am also getting some kinking but that may or may not go away. Worst case, I will step up to 2.5 and use those for the autodosing tubing on the top of the stand, behind the tank.

Plumbing..









With Filter...









Now it just got crazy. Talk about tight fit. I still need to find a better solution for my dry ferts and autodoser. It has about 40-50ft of power cords combined because the fountain pump cords are so long.













Now it is time to fill.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sorry for all the constant updates but I just have done a lot. I finally have it filled and planted the few plants I have. I may start moving things over from my 6 gallon but those trimmings are like 3-5 in tall most.


I wanted to give a review so far of my Besta stand because I couldn't find much info on it. 

Pros: 
-This thing seems very sturdy. I did the sit on it and see how it feels and it is much sturdier than the stand pictured above with my 20 long. I am not too worried about it failing

-Very affordable. I spent around $70 I believe for everything with tax if I am not mistaken. 

-Fits the 60P width as close to exact as I would ever care.

-It assembled perfectly level and stayed level. Unlike other things I used, this thing was pretty square just putting it together. 

-It is attractive and customizable. If you like the simple ADA style, this is really similar in style. It has a variety of options, 3 colors for the stand, I believe you have 5-6 for the door (including the 3 colors the stand comes in).

-It keeps the noise very isolated. I used the back piece and only drilled one hole in that. My filter is purging air and is somewhat loud right now. With the door closed, it's totally silent.

-It's easy to come by, easy to assemble etc.

Negatives (what most probably want to hear).

-Unlike an ADA style stand, the tank must go behind the door, leaving a 3/4 in gap in front. In back, you have 3.5 in. Obviously Ikea didn't design this for a 60P so I am not complaining. 

-Construction is not even particle board. It's some sort of "semi hollow core" construction. This actually surprised me greatly when drilling in to it. 

-As per above, I know this will delaminate quickly as I have other furniture with the same laminate. Now I know, the laminate is actually part of the construction. 

-Door fitment is challenging. I actually thought my door was warped at first. It's not so much that the fitment is hard to adjust, it can be hard to understand what does what. Once you play around, it's not bad but took me longer than other furniture with simpler adjustments. 

-Stand is pretty short compared to commercial stands. This is covered in above posts but at 6ft 1in tall, the top of my tank is at my waist. I don't really mind and you can get the legs to raise it up more but it's still going to be on the short side.

Advice:
-One thing I didn't take into account on carpet is the weight of the tank compressing into the carpet. There is not enough adjustment to make it not hit the carpet, though I was able to make pretty easy to open. There is adjustment on the bottom so if I would have raised it up, I would have had the clearance. I only would have need 1/4 of an inch. Hard to go back and do after setup

-Get the legs if you don't like a low stand. 

-Adjust the door after you have the tank on. I spent a lot of time getting the door right, just to have to readjust it after the fact. Part of it is my carpet issue. However, it was just easier to do after the fact.


I don't know if anyone cares but I had trouble finding much info on this setup, outside the fact it fits the 60P well. I didn't consider the height part, didn't think of some of the issue I encountered and would have never known with the info I found on the net that this could be problematic. I really like this stand overall and just want to help the next person. I would consider the stands they carry now at AFA as well, though more expensive, they are actually made to fit a 60P and should not need modification.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Nice review, it will help other would be researchers finding alternative stands. I also had to dig around for info on the besta as a 60p stand. Not everyone lives by AFA so I can imagine shipping wouldn't make the cost more appealing. Ikea is (almost) everywhere! Just don't get the stand wet! Lol


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Nice review, it will help other would be researchers finding alternative stands. I also had to dig around for info on the besta as a 60p stand. Not everyone lives by AFA so I can imagine shipping wouldn't make the cost more appealing. Ikea is (almost) everywhere! Just don't get the stand wet! Lol


Yeah, I forget about shipping. AFA isn't even that close to me, 2 hour round trip if I try to avoid traffic, took me two hours to get to SF in commute traffic the other day. SF is a fun city so I find myself out that way but it's not some where I just get into the car and go to. My wife and friends understand it's an absolute must that we stop there if we are out in SF though, haha.

I am thinking about putting car wax or something to try to keep the water from getting into the stand. Won't be a great fix but good enough. My last stand was MDF so I think I can handle it.

But yeah, I just wanted to give a review as it seems widely used but nobody really says much about it. I could only find a few pictures when I was trying to figure it out.



ON A SIDE NOTE...I just spent about 2 hours trying to figure out how I just went through my whole CO2 tank. Checked everything with the little CO2 I had left, couldn't find a leak. Turns out I forgot to turn my valve back open, how fun of a time.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sooo, I am happy with the Poppy Glass outflow (I think). Between letting my filter go while I was taking down my 20 long and trying to reslope my AS after filled, my filter is really dirty. I cleaned it once but every time it purges air, it starts spitting out all the mulm/sediment inside. I am wondering if I should just let it be or thoroughly clean the filter. I just rinsed the mechanical, I want to keep my bio media intact so I don't have a super long cycle. 

What would you experienced people recommend? Keeping the filter as is and letting it cycle with established media, knowing my filter has all sorts of stuff in it or try to thoroughly clean the filter, hopefully keep the bio media (I usually mess that up) and risk having a long cycle with ammonia leach?

Let me know, I will take some pics soon. My tank is still cloudy since I keep messing around and I have only a few plants at the moment.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Moving forward. I guess this picture is to show that I have plants and a water bill. Nothing really to see.












I will give a bonus picture as there is not much to see. I have not done much in terms of planting, forgot to buy one plant, and this will come together in time. If you are local, and watch morning news, here is me and the wife at Kron4 news.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Oh snap, more people with the Besta stand for their 60P. I got the glossy red doors with glossy white top. Maybe a new pimp group, hmmm? 

Get the glossy glass cover, it's awesome!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

You need more plants.

v3


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## greenteam (Feb 8, 2012)

I agree with OVT. Always best to start heavy in planted tank and then remove/replace as you get the tank to the look you want.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Oh snap, more people with the Besta stand for their 60P. I got the glossy red doors with glossy white top. Maybe a new pimp group, hmmm?
> 
> Get the glossy glass cover, it's awesome!


I probably would have went more wild on the color if it was in another room besides our living room. I couldn't figure out if they made the blue/teal door in this size but I really like the white/teal setup they seemed to have on display everywhere in Ikea. 

What is the glass cover? Not sure I saw that. I can't tell in the picture how thick it is.



OVT said:


> You need more plants.
> 
> v3


I think you are right.  Honestly, I held off on buying plants specifically because we were planning to meet. Just bought plants I really wanted. 



greenteam said:


> I agree with OVT. Always best to start heavy in planted tank and then remove/replace as you get the tank to the look you want.


I agree. I almost always do it that way. I don't have many local places (that are truly local) that I trust for plants. I would say I get 90% of my plants from OVT these days.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

It's not very thick at all, you can get them in the same colour or size of your stand. I believe they are 10 dollars for your size, mine was 20 because it is twice as big.

Here the top, not very thick at all. 










I got the red doors because they were on sale, they were the same price as the non glass ones.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

That's pretty cool, didn't see that when I was there. It doesn't really matter at this size because I would never see it so I will wait on it. 

I know others said it before but you red CO2 tank is super awesome.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

setups looking good! Dont stress to much about getting water on the stand, The new ikea laminate is much better than it used to be.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> setups looking good! Dont stress to much about getting water on the stand, The new ikea laminate is much better than it used to be.


I will probably just add some furnature polish to the sides and bottom as it looks the same as my desk which had minor issues after someone spilled a drink on my mixing console and I choose to sacrifice my desktop for my board and didn't clean it up ASAP.

The door may be the most problematic but they are $5 in this finish.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, this is my hilarious update as I tried to add some clippings from my nano into this. Honestly, it's more because I was bored than anything. I do have someone helping me with plants and I may have got lucky with another member I have yet to meet. I took just a few plants I wanted to be able to check growth/color on. I have some very fast growers I want to see if I can maintain and some plants I want to gauge the color on. Obviously, I won't get that right away at the substrate level but it's fine. Everything is randomly placed for now, and likely for awhile, until I have a good idea of what plants I will use.

I got to say I am loving the poppy glass. My filter is kind of slow but I can tell it was the right choice for this tank. Nice, gentle current all around.

Not much to see, this is just for me to compare to later:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Not to keep updating a thread that isn't going anywhere fast but here is more. 

I had planned on doing some sort of RGB setup. It didn't look right on the light, plus, even though the LED strips were supposed to be 2ft, they were a bit over so they didn't really fit on the outside of my light, much less something I could retro fit in.

I have done a few tanks with a backlight and I thought it was cool. I used florescent light in the past and they all had a bottom rim. With the high clarity glass, it's really quite stunning. 

I just used my old background that doesn't fit, obviously. Here are a few settings, just all over the place from appealing to over the top. The last are dimmed to show that it doesn't have to be totally over the top. 


































































Just another thing to play with...


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

How could I have missed this thread until now??? Great start. You need some more plants in there ASAP!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I have been eying some LEDs that loco4tanks found on eBay, they are single color LEDs but for ~$10 ea... I'm still looking for something to back light the riparium plants.

Yours look awesome, I just cannot figure out if its a single RGB light or multiple bulbs? Way cool.

v3


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Whoa thats so cool


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> I have been eying some LEDs that loco4tanks found on eBay, they are single color LEDs but for ~$10 ea... I'm still looking for something to back light the riparium plants.
> 
> Yours look awesome, I just cannot figure out if its a single RGB light or multiple bulbs? Way cool.
> 
> v3


They are RGB LED strips with remote. I impulse bought them at Costco a few weeks ago. This is exactly what I have:
Amazon.com: Sylvania 72344 Mosaic Flexible Light Kit: Home Improvement

The strips are 2ft long. With the supplied connectors, you can hook up 5 strips on a 2ft long tank. 

I texted you about meeting up today. If you want, I can bring it with me as I mounted them to a plate right now to try various things with them.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, one reason I didn't have plants is my hommie OVT offered a nice bit of hang out time and help on the plants. I have not at all thought about the layout, just wanted them in the tank to so I can see where everything will go. I don't have any of my "highlight" plants yet as I don't know where to put them. Well, I have one, not in the right place because I do not know where the right place is.

Anyway, here is my plant farm, it will get arranged as I have time. Dutch style isn't a bunch of plants in the gravel, my tank...is just that. We will see how it comes a long


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## tetra10 (Aug 5, 2012)

I also have a besta ikea stand! it fits the tank perfectly! I reinforced it a bit just to absolutely ensure that it would be able to withstand the tanks weight.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Hahah so many people are getting this stand, it's awesome to see a cheap option for the 60P.

What did you do to reinforce the stand?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So....I have already gone through my first iteration of the day. I have to say, I almost wish I didn't have so many plants. Usually when I do an all stem tank, have about 3-5 background plants, most, then my foreground and slowly build out from there. For example, here is my 6 gallon going month by month. You can see how it really transistions quickly from nothing into something. Here is a month by month of that:

June








July
















August








September










I keep finding myself rearranging my plants on this one, only to feel I made it uglier. I need to remind myself to have patience as it will need to grow into itself, and won't really look right until it's manicured, something that takes time.

Here is where I am at now on the 60P


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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I will give a bonus picture as there is not much to see. I have not done much in terms of planting, forgot to buy one plant, and this will come together in time. If you are local, and watch morning news, here is me and the wife at Kron4 news.


 Nice tie, dude!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Jack Gilvey said:


> Nice tie, dude!


That's his tongue 

Too many plants? I got your back - you can always dump them on me. It only took 2.5 hours to pick 20 species. After that I stoped counting ... and passed out.
BTW, I also got no beer left :O

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> That's his tongue
> 
> Too many plants? I got your back - you can always dump them on me. It only took 2.5 hours to pick 20 species. After that I stoped counting ... and passed out.
> BTW, I also got no beer left :O
> ...


Haha, sorry if that came off disingenuous, I am just overwhelmed. I will likely have some to give back to you, I will drop off some beer in the process. Not kidding either, I really think I have too much of some species that may need to go back.


As for the tie...It was not anything formal, I was actually out of clothes and just wore the same shirt I wore for my wedding since it was the only shirt I didn't have to iron. It does match Mark's tie well though. Just a simple chill session with Bay Area's finest newscasters. I must have scared them as they have been taking some time off.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Question:

Is it possible for my tank to cycle this quickly with AS? Filter has been established for about 1 year and I did have the tank up since the 17th with an uncycled filter, since the 20th with the cycled filter.


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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> As for the tie...It was not anything formal, I was actually out of clothes and just wore the same shirt I wore for my wedding since it was the only shirt I didn't have to iron. It does match Mark's tie well though.


 Ahh, ok, you're the sitting one. Got it.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Jack Gilvey said:


> Ahh, ok, you're the sitting one. Got it.


Oh, now I feel like I should call Kron4 news and demand Mark Danon's job.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

My 60g cycled in 5 days, 30g in 9 days, both with established filters. A lot of plants does not hurt either.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> My 60g cycled in 5 days, 30g in 9 days, both with established filters. A lot of plants does not hurt either.
> 
> v3


Good to know. I can't find my nitrite test kit but my ammonia is at zero and my nitrates are low. I will wait a bit more to put fish in, just was surprised. Will check ammonia in a few days again.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I know I am whoring this thread and the whole forum for that matter but I did have some time to get my hands wet. 

I still am not feeling where I am at but I do feel like I am making progress here. Having never done a Dutch tank, it's just hard to visualize. I do feel I am getting a more "flowly" vibe as well as getting some "streets" in. I am on the fence about Pennywort, I don't think I like it but it seems like every Dutch tank has it. I will figure that out. 

The other thing I am doing is just visualizing it as my tank being half as tall and trimming things that don't need to be trimmed yet.



Minor improvements. I keep saying I will get a better camera than my phone but I have not.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

First....I really need to start saving for an actual camera. My phone has never been a good camera but now with the CO2 in front, not much natural light, really bad. 

Member Psiorian gave me a good batch of plants so I did a bit more work as I had some time. Instead of going front to back or back to front like I am used to, I am deciding to go left to right, putting all the plants I haven't found a spot for to that side. The right is just the "junkyard" until I find a place.

The "streets" are more challenging than one would think so I may or may not have it where I want. I am trying to have some of the plants have some motion and come out far, kind of wrapping around some of the plants that are going to be focal points, keeping some just in back, etc. Not that you can really tell in the pictures but I feel like it's improving. 

I really just wanted to give a thank you to Psiorian for the plants though, very happy with what I got.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> First....I really need to start saving for an actual camera. My phone has never been a good camera but now with the CO2 in front, not much natural light, really bad.
> 
> Member Psiorian gave me a good batch of plants so I did a bit more work as I had some time. Instead of going front to back or back to front like I am used to, I am deciding to go left to right, putting all the plants I haven't found a spot for to that side. The right is just the "junkyard" until I find a place.
> 
> ...


No problem man. Thanks for stuff too!

Hope it survives for you. Off to a great start.

Now I want to go to ikea to buy one of these stands so I have an excuse to put a tank on it. :thumbsup:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I dug out all my closet and found an old point and shoot. Still not a great camera but 100x better


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So I can't decide on the foreground plant. It is the first time in many years where I am not going for compact as scale just isn't an issue on this tank. I have some very large leafed plants so I almost think something like HC or UG would actually look too small.

My first two choices are Echinodorus tenellus and Hydrocotyle japan, I know two very different plants.

Echinodorus tenellus can color up very nicely with a red vein in the leaves, giving the foreground some color. On the flip side, it kind of has a mind of it's own and I am not sure grassy is the right look.

Hydrocotyle japan has a more "flowly" look to it and though I haven't personally used it before, it seems like it should be pretty "shapeable", meaning I can likely add some height difference front to back. It also seems like it would be easy to combine more than one foreground plant if I wanted.


A whole different route would be HM. I like it as a foreground for the same reasons I think Hydrocotyle japan would be a good choice. I have used it before and I enjoyed being able to go from about 1/4 inch high to 3 or more by the way I trimmed it. The major downside is when you trim it to the substrate, it can be really ugly for a week or more as this plant has a tenancy to loose color in it's lower leaves when used as a carpet plant. 

I think glosso would be another good choice but I just have never had luck with glosso. Any other options would be appreciated, I have all of the above already, some in larger quantities than others.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

How about elatine triandra as a foreground?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> How about elatine triandra as a foreground?


That can work, I have not seen it in awhile locally though. It's pretty similar to HM, I believe, when using HM as a carpet plant, minus the discoloration of the leaves HM gets as a carpet. That's what I recall when I first saw it a few years ago and that's how it was described to me. I will have to put that into the consideration.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

I vote Hydrocotyle japan because I'd like to see what it looks like when it fills in and this is the next plant I was going to try 

I googled some images it looks good if all the leaves are pointing upwards and kept neatly.

I also second your thought of blending the Hydrocotyle japan with another carpeting plant to create height difference.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Just give in and go Blyxa.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> I vote Hydrocotyle japan because I'd like to see what it looks like when it fills in and this is the next plant I was going to try
> 
> I googled some images it looks good if all the leaves are pointing upwards and kept neatly.
> 
> I also second your thought of blending the Hydrocotyle japan with another carpeting plant to create height difference.


I put some Hydrocotyle japan in (I think it's japan) to test it out as well as the very small amount of E. tenellus I have. If either appeal, I just will keep which one. I am sort of thinking Hydrocotyle japan is the best idea.



OVT said:


> Just give in and go Blyxa.
> 
> v3


I don't like pulling up the foreground and replanting. I have to be able to trim it as low as I want. You know I am not the biggest fan of Blyxa. Plus, I don't know how high it will grow in this tank, it is going to be in the foreground area.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I know I am really whoring up this thread now and trust me, if my friends knew, I would be so embarrassed. 

I would like some advice from the high light guru's on my lighting setup. It may be something more appropriate to put in the lighting section.

Given that I have 24wx4 T5HO bulbs, I like to keep my fixture very high so I get a great view of the top of the tank. On the flip side, it makes it much harder to dial in my "noon burst" without other issues. I may be answering my own question here but is it easier to keep the light low and use 2x24, rather than keep the light high and run a few hours of 4x24? 

I am trying to imitate some other 60P setups I like and most are 24x2 T5HO, a few inches off the top of the tank. It's too early for me to say how things are going, using my last tank as a guideline but I am getting good growth, bad color right now. Nothing in my tank is more than 7-9 in tall though so that may be a factor as well. I really want my fixture higher up than most people as it makes a good room light, I just don't know that I will get the best results. As said, I may have answered my own question but I would love to hear opinions. I guess the main part of my question is simple. If I double the light, and double the height off the tank, do the T5HO's still penetrate to the bottom the same? Either way, I am going low and 2x24 for now, just trying to figure my long term out.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

i would start at 15" above the tank for 4 t5's, keep the light schedule between 7-8 hours to start with. keep a close eye on things. i would suggest leveling out your substrate, this helps detritus settle toward the bottom of the tank more easily, if you have dips and shallower areas, detritus tends to collect in those spots. keep up on the water changes! in a month or two you can likely lower the lighting if you want to try and bring some more colors out the plants, but give them time to adapt, often some red plants will fade, then after a few weeks you will see them color back up once they become more adapted to your tank.


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

I run 2x24 watt T5s right on the tank. It's not suspended at all. I also dose 10 mls of glut a day along with co2.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> i would start at 15" above the tank for 4 t5's, keep the light schedule between 7-8 hours to start with. keep a close eye on things. i would suggest leveling out your substrate, this helps detritus settle toward the bottom of the tank more easily, if you have dips and shallower areas, detritus tends to collect in those spots. keep up on the water changes! in a month or two you can likely lower the lighting if you want to try and bring some more colors out the plants, but give them time to adapt, often some red plants will fade, then after a few weeks you will see them color back up once they become more adapted to your tank.


I was going to go this route, with the only difference being a long noon burst vs all four lights on all day. However, my past tanks got me thinking about how long it took me to sort the lighting out and I decide I am going to keep the lights on 2 bulbs, low over the tank and then add light, moving the light up in the process.



keats said:


> I run 2x24 watt T5s right on the tank. It's not suspended at all. I also dose 10 mls of glut a day along with co2.


That's the plan. I went through so many 60P journals and most who were using T5's and getting the results I want had it right over the tank, using 2x24. I put my lights as low as they would go, 3.5in off the top. That's about where they would be with legs anyway.


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> I was going to go this route, with the only difference being a long noon burst vs all four lights on all day. However, my past tanks got me thinking about how long it took me to sort the lighting out and I decide I am going to keep the lights on 2 bulbs, low over the tank and then add light, moving the light up in the process.
> 
> 
> 
> That's the plan. I went through so many 60P journals and most who were using T5's and getting the results I want had it right over the tank, using 2x24. I put my lights as low as they would go, 3.5in off the top. That's about where they would be with legs anyway.


 Yeah, i havent seen any algae yet either. Dosing full E.I.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is a simple update. Growth is pretty good but color is not so good. Being that I am trying to keep algae away and get growth going, I will likely not try to do anything to enhance coloring for now. Once things grow taller, I will be able to tell if it's a lighting issue, or some other issue anyway so I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. This tank also will not look as I want it until I get at least one trimming done, more likely more than a few.

I have also not worked on the right side much. I really want to have some Ludwigia glandulosa. I can't remember what Ludwigia is in the corner, we will see if that will get yanked for the glandulosa, depending on how it colors up. I don't think I have room for two large leaf red plants in this tank, maybe I will find a way.
Here is the full tank shot and what I believe is rotala rotundifolia but am not sure at the moment what it is.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I also made this (not so good) video comparing my poppy outflow to a generic jet style outflow pipe since I have had a few questions about it. If you can't really see or understand what I am saying, the poppy flow has a lower velocity but better distribution while the jet has a much higher velocity but is more isolated to one part of the tank. Both will work well, I think the poppy glass is better for tanks with many stems like this, the jet is better for more hardscape and foreground plants, and is less intrusive looking.

Don't know how to embed

http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/9986622813/


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

talontsiawd said:


> Growth is pretty good but color is not so good.


How old are the bulbs in the t5? Maybe you can get some Giesemann powerchrome middays and an aquaflora in there. With ferts on point, these bulbs get plants to color up nicely.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> How old are the bulbs in the t5? Maybe you can get some Giesemann powerchrome middays and an aquaflora in there. With ferts on point, these bulbs get plants to color up nicely.


Bulbs are pretty new, a few months old. Well, one is unknown how old as I took it out when I got the fixture and put it back in, guessing 6 months.

I have a combination of Hamilton Technology and Aquaticlife. Reason for that is my bulbs were so old that I wanted to replace ASAP and bought locally.

I have considered the Midday/Aquaflora combo for the future. Just not in the budget to do ASAP as I just got married and that was not cheap, haha, catching up a bit financially from that right now.


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

I may try out the poppy glass. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

keats said:


> I may try out the poppy glass.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


It's hard to see in the pictures but it's a very different sort of flow. It almost "pushes" the water in a different sort of motion than a jet style. It seems like you almost have no flow but if you look at the surface, you can then see how much more is moving in the tank, just slower.

The one thing about it that is nice is that it doesn't make a big difference if you water level gets low. With a jet style, it really starts moving things around, the poppy glass stays the same. The flip side of this is it does not work well for aeration purposes. Once it is at the water line or above, it really just moves the water right around it, rather than the jet type which will really increase surface movement. Hard to explain.

I really like mine for stems, as I said, I would choose the jet flow for a hard scape based tank.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

But does it create a vortex (whirlpool) effect to pull down any protein layer that forms?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> But does it create a vortex (whirlpool) effect to pull down any protein layer that forms?


No vortex. It's kind of hard to explain but picture that horizontally, it creates a sort of circular flow and picture the circle being parallel to the front/back glass. It does create more surface agitation, but more gently, so I don't know how well it would do with surface scum. My guess is not well. To be honest, it almost looks like ocean waves way out, not breaking ones, just the movement of waves off shore. Again, subtle though.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Sounds neat for everything submerged. My concern would be surface scum and dead spots due to reduced flow. Glad you like them though. I almost picked some poppy style myself. 

I think your lighting is cool for now. I know both Current and Finnex are in the works for serious PAR pumping LED plant lights. With the increased PAR and full spectrum output, we should be able to suspend the lights while maintaining high PAR at the substrate level... kiss bulb replacements goodbye!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Sounds neat for everything submerged. My concern would be surface scum and dead spots due to reduced flow. Glad you like them though. I almost picked some poppy style myself.
> 
> I think your lighting is cool for now. I know both Current and Finnex are in the works for serious PAR pumping LED plant lights. With the increased PAR and full spectrum output, we should be able to suspend the lights while maintaining high PAR at the substrate level... kiss bulb replacements goodbye!


I would have hated these pipes on my last tank, 20L "iwagumish" tank. With all stems, well, that is the reason I picked them.

I think the color is likely not a lighting issue. My guess is too much ferts, I have my theory on this, someone may be able to disprove it but with high co2 and excess ferts, I feel like the plants are able to grow faster, thus getting less light per inch grown. What I mean is if I reduced ferts, it would take say, twice as long to grow the same amount, thus getting 2x the light exposure for the growth. Not sure if that is at all true, just my theory. I will play around with ferts and lighting but I want to keep algae at bay and get things grown in before that.


As for new lights, I have been considering LED's for a long time. It seems only now (or what is coming out) will possibly sway me. My friend has AI LED's on his reef and the controlability is amazing. Until I can get something out the box like that, I likely won't mess with LED's. I am not sure it will be as cool on freshwater as the AI's are on a reef but still, I want sunrise, sunset, realistic moon lights and be able to shift the color spectrum on top of having good output. I am kind of picky after seeing how cool the AI's are and don't want to DIY.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

For the ferts... I'm not an expert on it but I've been told by someone who has a 220g Dutch-like scape with very colorful contrasting plants to keep the Nitrates low, Phosphates high, and increase the Micro dosing... what are your nitrates and phosphates reading at? 

As for the lighting... SW definitely got more neat stuff, but it comes at a hefty price by comparison (most of the time). But since I like that extra control as you mentioned, I opted for the Current Sat+ lights... only thing is I had to get two and I'm putting them on the tank rather than suspending them to squeeze extra PAR out of them. But that's part of the reason why I had to have my Besta stand taller... I didn't want to look down on my lights and not stoop down so low to look into my tank. But all the controllability is there... I have different color temperatures, different modes like clouds, storms, moonlights, etc. They're super cool. I'll see how well two do in growing medium+high plants at 12" distance. Also, with the new Current Ramp Timers coming out, everything can be automated out of the box. No crazy Arduino coding needed! LOL

I'm thinking, Current's plant specific light will have a huge boost in PAR and the compatibility with the Ramp Timer. Not sure what Finnex's strategy will be.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I am just doing EI dosing but I have yet to reset my autodoser for the shorter tank size so it's getting about 1.5 the amount. I use fountain pumps so every time I change tanks, I need to re do the setup as it's based off the head height of the pumps.

As for LED's, I think Current is developing something I may be very interested in. I do have backlit RGB LED's on this tank so it's similar to the Sat+. I just need to build a new background for it, hoping my brother may be able to laser cut something for me out of acrylic.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So I did some cleaning this morning and decided that I just need to get rid of anything floating. I basically decided any plant I have not put in the substrate needs to go. Some things are not in the final places, especially on the right side which I have not yet thought out. Other than that, I replaced with I thought was R. wallichii with some other I got yesterday.

I am not sure what type of ludwigia is in the back right corner but it is not doing well. That area was very shaded. If it doesn't work out, I will replace it with ludwigia glandulosa, something I really want in this scape. Things are growing way faster than it appears, I am trimming regularly to try to develop a theme.

My concern now is it looks a bit contrived and more of a "stem farm" than something "flowing". Dutch style is contrived but I just feel it's a bit stiff. If I get the colors right, it may be fine, but I feel like I may have to pull some plants. It will take me awhile to get right, no big deal, just trying to get further in the process.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Grandulosa is a pretty large, fast growing plant. Trade you L. repens x acuata fir your new walichii 

v3


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

OVT said:


> Grandulosa is a pretty large, fast growing plant.


Agreed... the plant can make your tank look small from how much room a single stem can take up. You should get some mini AR.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Grandulosa is a pretty large, fast growing plant. Trade you L. repens x acuata fir your new walichii
> 
> v3


I know it is but I could find room. I will make sure you get the first trim of it which will likely be about the time I will be able to next meet up, especially if you are busy too. I can meet next week. If you want some quick, all about fish has it in good shape. Most there stems are nice, and basically anything else that doesn't stay around long. 


Brian_Cali77 said:


> Agreed... the plant can make your tank look small from how much room a single stem can take up. You should get some mini AR.


It would be exactly one stem in the back corner, right side if I do it. 
Alternanthera reineckii 'Mini' would be a good substitute for it in the mid ground. I often use the regular for a mid ground but it's not my favorite so I am trying to keep my spices down until I get everything I want. The mini has always been something I have had interest in. Will have to consider that.






OK, off to finally make my background.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Finished up my background, I got to say, I love RGB LED's. I wish this system had a bit more colors to chose from, it has a ton but green and purples don't look very natural. I tried to take some pictures on settings I find to be attractive or natural looking. This would be way cooler on a natural style tank but it's fun to mess with. I don't see myself using it much, just will give my friends and especially my kids friends something to play with instead of trying to play "grab the fish".


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

OVT said:


> Grandulosa is a pretty large, fast growing plant. Trade you L. repens x acuata fir your new walichii
> 
> v3


Big as in Tall, it reaches the top at 18" < 1 week. It really needs a 24" tall tank, just like L. Cuba and such. L. sp red would be another choice. And Rotala macrandra .

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> Big as in Tall, it reaches the top at 18" < 1 week. It really needs a 24" tall tank, just like L. Cuba and such. L. sp red would be another choice. And Rotala macrandra .
> 
> v3


I had it in my 29 and liked it. It wasn't hard to keep and had great color. Not sure that I will use it, rotala macrandra will work there. I am using ludwigia sp red as a midground since it colors up more easily than most. It just is hidden on the left side for now. Not great color but pretty red for 3-4 in tall.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sooo, update time. Anytime you go out of town for 5 days with a fairly new tank, it's always interesting to come home to. Algae was not bad, just a bit on the glass. I do have a lot of brown stuff that looks like mulm, I don't have fish so I am not sure what it is. My guess is that it from some of my plants that didn't do well from transport.

I am going to have to rethink my layout. It just looks like a stem farm to me. When you are dealing with a lot of plants you have never grown, it's hard to predict growth habits.

Color is non existent. I will have to talk to some of my friends about this (OVT). I just bought some Rotala macrandra, rotala macrandra v. 'narrow leaf' (R. Magenta) and Nesaea red. I find the first two hard to grow, the last I have never tried and seems even harder. Hopefully they survive. I may need to take a trip to WC and drop some stems off at OVT's to make sure I have a supply later, haha. 

Anyway, things are going kind of alright. I can up both the CO2 and the light but want to stock before I get to far as I need to get some fish out of my 6 gallon that is way over stocked from my 20 long break down.

Here are the (green) pics, will trim tonight most likely:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I got my new plants in. OVT, please come by and take a few stems as I do not need this much and they are so nice. I would hate to get them to you later not looking as nice. 

Added R. macrandra, R. macrandra "narrow leaf" (R. Magenta) and Nesaea. I am very surprised how nice they look giving the transport home from LA. Nature Aquarium is a very nice shop, anyone in SoCal should make a point to go there on a regular basis. 


I think I said it before but it's going to take awhile to see this really turn into something. Add the fact only a few of my plants are coloring up decently, not well, longer. I think this next update is pretty representative of what I want, just not at all there yet. I am finally finding a rhythm in scaping this. Getting the horticultural side down, not so much. 

The sad part is I have to ditch some plants that I just don't like. That's part of a tank like this. I ditched one that I didn't feel comfortable giving away, have a few I am not sure will work but can grow in the tank for now. 

That said, still working it out but improving as I go (I think). Excuse the mess, we are still getting wedding presents and they always end up next to the tank


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

I've been meaning to ask you, what are those two clips on the back of the tank with wires coming off of them?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> I've been meaning to ask you, what are those two clips on the back of the tank with wires coming off of them?


I have a fountain pump style autodoser. That's where the ferts come out. So after the pump, I use air hose and those are just air hose connectors. The clips are some random SS ones I found over the years.


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

Looks significantly better since day one. The splash of color is very nice. Starting to come together 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

keats said:


> Looks significantly better since day one. The splash of color is very nice. Starting to come together
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


Thank you. It may sound odd but I hate starting out with a bunch of plants, especially on a tank that will have a bunch of species. It's one thing with a natural style tank where you may only start with one or two plants, maybe a few more "accent" plants but I still have plants on weights, just not sure where to go or if I will keep them. 

I figure this will look decent in about a month, assuming I can get good color, something I struggle with in high tech, ironically not so much in low tech. That is one of the reasons I chose to do a stem only, hopefully soon to be more traditional looking, dutch style tank.

I think it will take me 6 months to a year to be truly happy with it and have every plant I really want, take out any I don't, do a few rescapes, etc but this is a long term tank for me. When it's done and I really like it, I don't plan to move on, just continue with it. I will need to buy a larger nano tank now to fufill my natural style needs though haha. 

Anyway, thanks for the compliment, I still have a long way to go.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is an update with some Ok pics, looks different in person.

First, the right side needs a bunch of work but I have all this blyxa japonica that I need to get rid off. I am getting to the point where I have to really decide what I want or not as I have about 25% of space left. My layout may need some tweaking as well as it's too hard to know how things grow on initial setup. So, this is still in "beta" mode. 

If you look close, I have quite a bit of algae. I believe it is Spirogyra but I am not sure. I know I introduced it to the tank and should have taken out the plants that came with it but I didn't see it at first and by the time I did, I was too busy to deal with it. Or so I think, maybe I created it. It's thriving so I will start some plan of attack soon. All other algae, BGA and GDA have come and gone, making me think I am doing OK, but not great.


Lastly, I am having trouble with color. Ironically, my R. macrandra has the best color, though far from great, as I have never done well with this plant. My ludwigia sp red has better color than in the pics but still isn't as red as it should. I have had the same results with both in low tech.

I have two plants, R. macrandra "narrow leaf" and nesaea red that I cannot tell apart. New growth is not colorful at all. They may or may not be the same plant but look and behave the same. If they are, no biggie, I do have something in mind if they end up being the same plant, or just look to similar for my taste.

Next steps....I need to figure out my ferts. I cannot inject much more CO2 and I should have plenty of light so I am going to consult with a few people who grow beautiful red plants. I am thinking about trying out Giesemann bulbs due to their great reviews. I don't have high hopes but it's just one of those things where you hear about it so you feel the need to try it once. They are not particular expensive to me as I buy my bulbs locally, though I hate mail order, I am thinking about giving them a shot.

Then we have the algae. I am just going to try Algaefix and see what happens. I have found it safe so I will try to short cut it. If I felt it was created by me, I would take a different approach. I am also dosing 10ML of excel when I remember.


Here are some pics, far from beautiful. Need to stop trimming and let things grow out, just trying to keep my plants in control. I will clean my pipes and tubing at some point as well.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Looks great so far. I would let it grow and just keep replanting tops and pulling bottoms when you trim. That's also good placement on the nesaea red if that's what it is. It grew painfully slow for me. The narrow leaf macrandra is a smaller plant than nesaea in both stem and leaf and also makes a good foreground plant. Yours looks like nesaea to me.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Dang dude... good luck with that spiro. I swear that's my mortal enemy. I've dealt with it twice before. And actually, I'm dealing with it now in a quarantined container that came on some newly acquired mini Xmas moss. I've been treating for a week with Algaefix and it's finally dying off. It's very resilient, more so than my previous encounters. It's getting a more concentrated Algaefix dose but lasting longer... strange!

I think the Giesemann bulbs should make a difference. Have you tested your nitrates and phosphates yet? I wonder how that auto doser is working out.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

chad320 said:


> Looks great so far. I would let it grow and just keep replanting tops and pulling bottoms when you trim. That's also good placement on the nesaea red if that's what it is. It grew painfully slow for me. The narrow leaf macrandra is a smaller plant than nesaea in both stem and leaf and also makes a good foreground plant. Yours looks like nesaea to me.


That makes sense if they are both nesaea red. They looked slightly different in the tanks where I bought it. One was right under R. Magenta and when I bought it, he said it was the same plant, just looked a bit different. I assumed he meant that the R. macrandra and R. Magenta where basically the same plant that looked different. That makes me feel better as people say nesaea red is hard to grow so I can feel a bit better since most my other red plants are showing OK color, not great.



Brian_Cali77 said:


> Dang dude... good luck with that spiro. I swear that's my mortal enemy. I've dealt with it twice before. And actually, I'm dealing with it now in a quarantined container that came on some newly acquired mini Xmas moss. I've been treating for a week with Algaefix and it's finally dying off. It's very resilient, more so than my previous encounters. It's getting a more concentrated Algaefix dose but lasting longer... strange!
> 
> I think the Giesemann bulbs should make a difference. Have you tested your nitrates and phosphates yet? I wonder how that auto doser is working out.


Not too worried about the algae. It grew insanely fast which is why it became an issue but it looks like it has stabilized and not getting worse, maybe a bit better. As said, I am just short cutting it with algae fix. If that doesn't work, I will try other means.

Have not tested phosphates but nitrates are low. Honestly, I have never really used test kits but after some reading up, I plan to start. I did up the phosphates, heard it from you first, then looked into it online. Figured it couldn't hurt. I lowered nitrates to 1/2 EI but they are bottoming out so I may add some. I then switched from Plantex CSM+B to Flourish Comprehensive. 

The way my autodoser works is it's a 2 week period of my fert mix so I find that is just enough time to figure out if any changes are needed. We will see, I may need to up the KNO3 back to normal EI until the tank is fully stocked.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, just wanted to take a picture before I did a trim. It may seem like it needs to grow out but in my experience, constant trimming will get it to a manicured look more quickly. Honestly, I feel it looks really "rough" right now.

On the bright side, I don't see any of what I think was spiro after 2 doses of algaefix. That leads me to believe it really wasn't thriving, just doing well enough to stay. My reds are getting from OK to Good on some plants. 

On the subject of red....I obviously need more. I purposely not being experimental and just waiting to get the right plants that I really enjoy. I really want my colorful plants to pop so having a lot of green seems to be effective in the scapes I am kind of referencing. Hopefully I find the plants that "speak to me" soon. Since I am still developing the layout, that may be soon, may be awhile. I know that is sort of boring.

Lastly, I finally did myself the biggest favor of my life and set up a holding tank for my plants. I will likely post more on that later but it's a simple setup, bare bottom, that I don't have any plans to scape. In bitFUUL's emmersed thread, I coined it the "tool box" which is kind of my goal here, as well as not keeping things I don't like because I may want them later down the road. 


Here is a pic, just about to trim:


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

blyxa japonica, where it go? How much Co2 you pumping? Looks like a yellow drop checker, I guess that good Co2. 

Your nitrogen should be cover in AS, for a while anyways.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> blyxa japonica, where it go? How much Co2 you pumping? Looks like a yellow drop checker, I guess that good Co2.
> 
> Your nitrogen should be cover in AS, for a while anyways.


I ditched the Blyxa for now. It just was growing too big. 

CO2, as much as I can. I actually need to drop it just slightly as my fish are slightly stressed, not gasping but are "easily startled". I can't go any higher with fish, that is for sure.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Just for fun before I get started on something else. Here is a picture of the side to show how the reds are improving. You can see all but the nesaea red are coloring up. I will start trying to color up the nesaea red as I learn more about it but everything else isn't all that bad.

Sorry for the phone pic, can't get a good shot without a tripod on my other camera


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Good to hear you knocked out that spiro before it became problematic.

Your last side view pic appears that your tank is very cloudy. Any clues as to the culprit?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Good to hear you knocked out that spiro before it became problematic.
> 
> Your last side view pic appears that your tank is very cloudy. Any clues as to the culprit?


The culprit to the cloudiness is a combination of the fact I had just stirred some things up but mostly the camera on my iphone. Not cloudy at all, just get a lot of graininess in my phone's camera. Looks a lot more like my last update though my camera shoots darker (old point and shoot).


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Gotcha... lol

So did you decide what other reds you're going to try to get in there?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Gotcha... lol
> 
> So did you decide what other reds you're going to try to get in there?


Not yet. I was planning on going to Albany Aqurium or AFA today as my wife had to pick up her friend in SF but didn't go. I may go tomorrow. I know I want something orange and I need a few plants that are easy to get red that stay low. Thinking Mini AR is in the equation. I like ludwigia cuba but that may be too big. I may pull out the limnophila aromatica as I am getting no color and have always struggled with this plant. If I can get color, I will keep it. I also have some R. Butterfly in the tank that is totally stuggling because I had it in very low light. Will see if that recovers.

Lastly, one of the "streets" is a fast growing green plant I cannot remember. Though I like it, it only looks good for about 2 days, then I have to trim, takes a few days to recover and needs another trim. It's also a bit more "unrulely" that I thought, now that I am trimming it. I plan to replace that with R. colorata. Right now, I have been propagating one little stem of it so I really need to get more as that will take me months. 

I have said it a few times but this tank will go slow. Though you can't tell, I have made a bunch of changes as I really have to relearn each plant I have had and learn all the new ones I get. To achieve the dutch look, everything needs to be very packed in so if a plant starts shoot to far to the side, I have to redo a lot of work.



On another note, I am super pumped that I can clean my outflow while it's on the tank because the curve is so gradual. The inflow is not so noticeable so I will likely clean that less often. I may try to make my inflow two piece as it is acrylic so it may not be that hard. If it's ugly at the joint, you won't see it on this tank when it's done.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Update before I hack this down to about 1/2 the height of the tank. I wish I had a better camera as you can kind of see (in person) how this is coming together. I am propagating most my red plants so they are not very evident in these pics. It's hard to tell in the pictures but everything is a bit more "flowing" and now the green actually look like they are surrounding the reds in a cool way. I hope after this trim, my vision starts to come together. The right side is just what it is, propagating my R. macrandra and not caring how it looks.

Pre trim:


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

Looks like it's coming along nicely! Can't wait to see how it looks post trim.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

It took me a bit to snap some post trim pics. I cut really low in the hopes that everything starts filling out the way I want it so I can just maintenance trim. I am obviously lacking a lot of reds, that should come soon as I rarely buy more than a few stems and would rather propagate them. That way I don't spend $30 on a plant, just to pull it. I still need to do a front/midground but I really want to go slow on filling the rest out as I want way more plants that can fit.

My nesaea red is not seeming to color up well so I put some Alternanthera reineckii in to see how that will work. I would like to keep it as is but I don't really want some super hard to grow species in my tank. My Limnophila aromatica is not coloring up either and may be replaced. I know it's a totally different plant but I am thinking Cabomba palaeformis (I think that is what I have in another tank) may fit well. 

Anyway, here are a few pics. Not at all there yet so I know this is a boring journal but I am purposely taking my time.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

^ Looks great!


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

That purple bamboo looks lonely... I can help get it a partner if you want


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> ^ Looks great!


I disagree but I feel it's now coming along. I actually read through my whole journal and thought, I should have waited to start it, haha. But yeah, hopefully in about a month it will start to look like something.



Bserve said:


> That purple bamboo looks lonely... I can help get it a partner if you want


Just cut it in half. I think once it puts off side shoots (already doing so), I will only need 2 stems. 

Did you end up keeping your 60P? I watched some of your videos not to long ago. It's crazy to realize how big the age gap can be, made me feel old haha.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

talontsiawd;4560385
Just cut it in half. I think once it puts off side shoots (already doing so) said:


> Yeah I kept it. It's also nice to hear people like my videos it means a lot more to me than you'd think.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Tank looks better and better in increments. I know it's a work in progress, as with mine, but it's starting to take shape and a clearer direction. I think a foreground will add more dimension. What are you thinking of using there anyways?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Yeah I kept it. It's also nice to hear people like my videos it means a lot more to me than you'd think.


Trust me, I know. I am a musician and put out a lot of tutorial videos on how to do some technical things. Even though some of my videos have 30,000+ views, it's nice when someone actually tells me the video help them out, inspired them or they just take the time out to tell me they like them. Glad to hear you kept the 60P. Your setup is really nice, especially with no expensive equipment, etc.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> Trust me, I know. I am a musician and put out a lot of tutorial videos on how to do some technical things. Even though some of my videos have 30,000+ views, it's nice when someone actually tells me the video help them out, inspired them or they just take the time out to tell me they like them. Glad to hear you kept the 60P. Your setup is really nice, especially with no expensive equipment, etc.


I have seen some of your videos. They're really cool. The light is expensive, though. Almost $400.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Tank looks better and better in increments. I know it's a work in progress, as with mine, but it's starting to take shape and a clearer direction. I think a foreground will add more dimension. What are you thinking of using there anyways?


I am not sure. I am leaning towards E. tenellus. The Hydrocotyle (japan I think) isn't carpeting low enough. On the flip side, the E. tenellus is getting a nice red. I have always had a fondness for E. tenellus but I wish their was a mini version. 

That said, there are a few back ups. One is HM. I love this as a foreground but like E. tenellus, the scale is a bit big. The other is Belem but I don't know if it will look right in a dutch tank.

I personally feel like the foreground is most important so if I don't like something, it will go. It not only makes the tank look "mature", it also decides the scale.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> I have seen some of your videos. They're really cool. The light is expensive, though. Almost $400.


That's funny if you like my videos because I purposely make them off the top of my head, no editing, etc, as many people who do what I do never show the time consuming steps. I am not a visual learner so my video's bore me haha.

As for your tank, I just meant you don't have high dollar equipment all around. That's a good thing. My 6 gallon is probably my favorite tank, some previous favorites were really not focused on anything but doing what I could do with the means I had to do it with.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

talontsiawd said:


> That's funny if you like my videos because I purposely make them off the top of my head, no editing, etc, as many people who do what I do never show the time consuming steps. I am not a visual learner so my video's bore me haha.
> 
> As for your tank, I just meant you don't have high dollar equipment all around. That's a good thing. My 6 gallon is probably my favorite tank, some previous favorites were really not focused on anything but doing what I could do with the means I had to do it with.


That's why it's in my bathroom :>


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I guess it would not be a journal if I did not show the bad. After the trim, which was pretty severe, I saw a bit of algae appear. Just some darker green slimy stuff on the lower leaves. I turned off my noon burst and everything kind of stayed the same.

Out of no where, I got hit with algae bad. I have the light green algae on the glass on a ton of dark green slimy algae on the leaves. Some of the not so hardy plants are really struggling. More concerning is that some plants are showing some major deficiencies. I just refilled my autodoser and from what I can tell, it's doing the same as always, I am just thinking I may have forgot to put in something. 

Now, I can clean this up to look OK in about an hour but I am hoping I am not beginning a long term issue. As said, a lot of the lower leaves are absolutely covered in algae and I may loose some plants. We will have to see where this goes, things like this come up but I thought I was falling into a good rhythm here. Anyone who I promised some trimmings to, I think you may want to be patient haha.


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## Charrr89 (May 15, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> So, I guess it would not be a journal if I did not show the bad. After the trim, which was pretty severe, I saw a bit of algae appear. Just some darker green slimy stuff on the lower leaves. I turned off my noon burst and everything kind of stayed the same.
> 
> Out of no where, I got hit with algae bad. I have the light green algae on the glass on a ton of dark green slimy algae on the leaves. Some of the not so hardy plants are really struggling. More concerning is that some plants are showing some major deficiencies. I just refilled my autodoser and from what I can tell, it's doing the same as always, I am just thinking I may have forgot to put in something.
> 
> Now, I can clean this up to look OK in about an hour but I am hoping I am not beginning a long term issue. As said, a lot of the lower leaves are absolutely covered in algae and I may loose some plants. We will have to see where this goes, things like this come up but I thought I was falling into a good rhythm here. Anyone who I promised some trimmings to, I think you may want to be patient haha.


That happend to me a bit ago... I did a large s repens trim and everything just seemed to go wrong. I lost more plants after the trim. Seems like something got unstable. :/ hope the best for ur tak.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

:O oh noes!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I know this is a horrible pic but this is about 20 min of cleaning. Put the UV on as well for at least the next day or two. Missed some spots that I will get to but couldn't see them as algae/cloundiness got in the way.

Not that everything is all good now, it's hard to tell in the pics but all the dark spots are algae covered leaves. Plus, growth is a bit leggy. It may be because I lowered the light level down but I am thinking my ferts may be off. Almost through my autodoser's cycle so I will refill and hope things get better.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

How much is in your autodoser solution? 

I'm going to have to stop by one of these days and see how you have this rigged up as it is very interesting to me.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Lookin better already


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> How much is in your autodoser solution?
> 
> I'm going to have to stop by one of these days and see how you have this rigged up as it is very interesting to me.


How much as in cost? About $60. However, I had some of it so I probably paid $25. You need containers, a digital timer that has a 1 min increment, and 1 or 2 fountain pumps, depending on how you are dosing.

This is an "old school" autodoser. It's like DIY CO2 in a way, it works but there are better solutions out there. At the time I made it, peristaltic pumps were crazy expensive. Controllers were even more expensive. Unless you had a strong knowledge of electrical, programing, etc, it was very hard to auto dose affordably. Now, peristaltic pumps can be had quite a bit more cheaply and things like Arduino exist to make life a lot easier. 

Here is how mine works, as you can see, pretty primitive. Not my blog, just a good explanation of how it works- http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/fertilizer-auto-doser/

Would I do this style again, not likely. It works but every time you get a new tank, or stand for that matter, you have to redo the whole thing. Quite a pain but when I made it, the other solutions where not nearly as affordable now.

That said, you are welcome to come check it out one of these days.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Bserve said:


> Lookin better already


Looks are deceiving. Glass can be cleaned but something is awry. That's the struggle, but the fun, of a high tech planted tank. If it doesn't reach the point of frustration, I am good. I did a minor trim as well, looks a bit more manicured, not that it's at all there yet.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

Oh I meant how long does your solution last before you refill.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> Oh I meant how long does your solution last before you refill.


Oh, without using airline valves, only a few days. However, it lasted 2 weeks on my 29 which had a taller stand and is a taller tank (the amount it pushes per minute is based on head height). Since I already had it marked for 2 weeks, I used some airline valves to make it last for 2 weeks again. So far it has been consistent through 2 cycles, we will see if it works long term.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I went to AFA really randomly today. I really wanted to buy the poppy inflow and almost did but just didn't have the cash on hand. It may be a blessing as I was thinking how nice it is to be able to clean my outflow on the tank. Being that my inflow (and outflow I am not using) cost met $20 for both, and are acrylic, I may modify my inflow to be two piece so I can clean that easily without removal. Although my inflow doesn't look quite as nice as glass, I can cut it. We will see where that goes. 

One thing that was cool is they had a some free literature. If you are around AFA, pick one up, they have some pull out posters and stuff that are pretty cool. Nothing in depth but I thought it was worth $0.










Some 60P inspiration










As for my tank...I feel like I am going through the same battle I always do. GDA on the glass, a darker slime algae on the plants. Both are easy to remove but thrive and come back strong. I lowered my light to 2 bulbs and it does not seem to help, but my reds have suffered. Throwing some new red plants in show me how bad it is (bought R. Singapore and more R. macrandra. The R. R. macrandra isn't even that red and makes what I have look terrible. 

Not sure where to go here. If I keep the lights low, no color, still get algae. If I up the lights, I get about the same amount of algae but much better color. I switched from a 4 bulb noon burst about 3 weeks ago to 2 bulbs, nothing got better algae wise but color has suffered. Not sure where to go. I will do a clean up to start. I do have a lot of dead organic matter as my HM suffered from Excel treatments and I bought some tissue culture plants from Petsmart that just perished. 

I am thinking shorter photoperiod, more light, and then figuring out ferts. I went back to plantex csm+b instead of Seachem Flourish Comprehensive for a test. I cannot add anymore CO2, honestly, I should probably lower it a touch as fish sometimes are stressed.

Here is a new picture, I know this journal is painfully slow. The new red plants are not intensely red so it shows you how bad my other red plants are doing...hopefully I can turn this around.












PS...If you like some hip hop, download a new song we just did (shameless plug):
https://soundcloud.com/3rddegreebeatsandmusic/its-alright-produced-by-3rd


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Goodness, look at that soundboard! What are you, a music producer?


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## carpalstunna (Mar 22, 2012)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Goodness, look at that soundboard! What are you, a music producer?


 
I see an axiom 49 too.....


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Goodness, look at that soundboard! What are you, a music producer?


Producer, instrumentalist, beat maker, not even sure what to call myself these days. I don't really like the "producer" term, even though that's usually what I am credited as, I consider the term producer to be someone who produces albums in the traditional sense, not the person who creates an instrumental or produces single tracks. But yeah, that's what I do.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Looking good man!!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Down_Shift said:


> Looking good man!!


I disagree haha. My colors are decent but algae is not letting them show except for the top so my camera doesn't even pick them up, not that they are very visible in person.


That said, I did something I thought I would never do again, buy oto's. The first group I bought (5 years ago) did well but I have had zero survive after that. I made sure to buy them at Petsmart so I can get something else if they don't survive. I know that's a bad way to look at it but I really want these guys and I know I am not the only one who struggles. Wish these guys luck, I really hope they make it.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> I disagree haha. My colors are decent but algae is not letting them show except for the top so my camera doesn't even pick them up, not that they are very visible in person.
> 
> 
> That said, I did something I thought I would never do again, buy oto's. The first group I bought (5 years ago) did well but I have had zero survive after that. I made sure to buy them at Petsmart so I can get something else if they don't survive. I know that's a bad way to look at it but I really want these guys and I know I am not the only one who struggles. Wish these guys luck, I really hope they make it.


My ottos are lazy, or my algae grows faster than they can eat :hihi:

I like nerites, they cleaned up my tank really quickly maybe try those. Albany Aquarium just got some tiger ones in a week or two ago.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

I'd go with Otos and Amanos... I use to LOVE nerites, that is until they decide to start making everything look like sesame buns.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> My ottos are lazy, or my algae grows faster than they can eat :hihi:
> 
> I like nerites, they cleaned up my tank really quickly maybe try those. Albany Aquarium just got some tiger ones in a week or two ago.


As I said, I haven't had ottos in a long time. Hopefully they work out like my first. 

Never tried snails for algae, outside of pond snails I get. They don't seem to do well in my tanks with CO2 so I just have avoid snails and CO2. My non CO2 tanks never get algae anymore. I will have to check it out. We put mystery snails in my wife's tank, well before she was my wife and we lived together and were interesting. Not that they helped with algae but were more fun to watch than I would have thought.

Need to go to Albany Aquarium anyway, I have been trying to give away that 20 long forever that I tried to pawn off to you and many others. An old friend just got into this stuff and wants to go out there. It's hilarious to have 10 people be so disinterested in my old tank and then someone thinks it's some huge gift and didn't feel comfortable at first taking it, thinking I was too generous haha. It's funny how we graduate and a standard 20 long with everything becomes worthless.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

talontsiawd said:


> I disagree haha. My colors are decent but algae is not letting them show except for the top so my camera doesn't even pick them up, not that they are very visible in person.
> 
> 
> That said, I did something I thought I would never do again, buy oto's. The first group I bought (5 years ago) did well but I have had zero survive after that. I made sure to buy them at Petsmart so I can get something else if they don't survive. I know that's a bad way to look at it but I really want these guys and I know I am not the only one who struggles. Wish these guys luck, I really hope they make it.


I still think it looks good given the issues. 

I totally feel ya about Ottos. They just die randomly sometimes. It's one of my most risky for some reason. I've bought from many different Lfs and big chain stores. Id do the samething and get them with a money back incase


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> I'd go with Otos and Amanos... I use to LOVE nerites, that is until they decide to start making everything look like sesame buns.


Amano's are on the list too. I try to get my tank about 1/2 stocked before shrimp, even though I find Amano's to be way hardier than otos. I actually haven't had a clean up crew in years. Amano's are not super hard to get here but in my immediate area, one shop sells unhealthy fish, the other shop is expensive. I actually think my local Petsmart is better for fish than the local fish store.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yeah I agree... I get most of my fish from Petsmart when I can. I got my school of Neons and my Otos on those lovely $1 sales. Can't beat that with a 14 day guarantee. I wish that they would bring back the Cardinals on that dollar sale too. And for a second, my local Petsmarts were carrying dwarf cichlids like GBR's and Apistos... haven't seen those in while. On the plus side, at least they have those GREAT tissue culture packs!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Yeah I agree... I get most of my fish from Petsmart when I can. I got my school of Neons and my Otos on those lovely $1 sales. Can't beat that with a 14 day guarantee. I wish that they would bring back the Cardinals on that dollar sale too. And for a second, my local Petsmarts were carrying dwarf cichlids like GBR's and Apistos... haven't seen those in while. On the plus side, at least they have those GREAT tissue culture packs!


I try to support my LFS but I find myself going to Petsmart. However, I can't get everything from Petsmart so I do rely on them. Luckily, a lot of the fish I like are not so popular and one is very upfront for how long they have had the fish. They are the "unhealthy place" but if they keep them for a few weeks, very healthy. With the oto's I need the 14 day policy though. Still acclimating, trying to try something new by a faster drip but dumping water out to hedge my bets on a longer acclimation period but with more "fresh" water. They look good so far.




Down_Shift said:


> I still think it looks good given the issues.
> 
> I totally feel ya about Ottos. They just die randomly sometimes. It's one of my most risky for some reason. I've bought from many different Lfs and big chain stores. Id do the samething and get them with a money back incase


I don't think it looks good outside the algae. Since I lowered the light levels, my reds have turned pale. Growth slowed too so my pockets of red are getting hidden by fast growers. I know how I want the tank to look, at least at the basic level and I thought I would be a lot further a long. I know a lot of people are successful with 24wx2 T5HO but I am not. I need the noon burst. But with algae issues, I am not doing that right now. I also have been doing a lot of music so my time is capitalized on as well. Not to the point of neglecting the basics but no deep cleaning as of late.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Yes... definitely support the LFS when feasible. I get some harder to find species from at least two or three in my area. I also trade plants with them so I have a good relationship with them. 

Good luck on those Otos! I'd probably dial down the co2 a bit until they have some extra time to acclimate.


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## Markahsf (Feb 27, 2012)

Hey Matt, 

Tank looks pretty good. I got some ottos and amanos from aquarium concepts in dublin a month ago and I haven't had any deaths yet. I'm not sure how far you are from them but they were $2 each so not too expensive. Thats $2 for both the ottos AND amanos. They have amanos as "Algae Eating Shrimp" and they're kept with the rcs and crs. Greg and I just went to AFA on Wednesday actually. I should have hit you up since we just took Bart. Your tank is coming along nicely. 

I just got over my algae problem myself. I modified my dosing, gave my co2 a 2 hour head start before lights turning on and lowered my photoperiod by an hour. I'm not sure what helped the most but my tank is algae free. You're a smart guy, you'll figure it out. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG GALAXY S4 ACTIVE using Tapatalk 2


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Yes... definitely support the LFS when feasible. I get some harder to find species from at least two or three in my area. I also trade plants with them so I have a good relationship with them.
> 
> Good luck on those Otos! I'd probably dial down the co2 a bit until they have some extra time to acclimate.


They are looking decent, just got them in the tank. That doesn't mean much and I can only see 3 but the coloration is better than I would have thought. They colored back up quick. Crossing my fingers.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Markahsf said:


> Hey Matt,
> 
> Tank looks pretty good. I got some ottos and amanos from aquarium concepts in dublin a month ago and I haven't had any deaths yet. I'm not sure how far you are from them but they were $2 each so not too expensive. Thats $2 for both the ottos AND amanos. They have amanos as "Algae Eating Shrimp" and they're kept with the rcs and crs. Greg and I just went to AFA on Wednesday actually. I should have hit you up since we just took Bart. Your tank is coming along nicely.
> 
> ...


Mark,
I actually really like Aquarium Concepts. It's not close, not far. The thing is, if I go to AFA, I usually hit the bars down the street, some great places. If I go to Albany, I can stop at Ikea (which I hate but always need something). Not familiar enough with Dublin to find something else to do. 

I do go there on a some what regular basis but it's always with my friend who is working on his reef tank. He bought 3 AI Sol's there, it's crazy they even carry that. Plus they have Radion too, in stock. Crazy. Unfortuately, at best my friend picks me up. That's Concord to Dublin, to El Sobrante, back to Concord. We usually spend a few hours on his tank and I may smoke some "different" stuff than my normal and have a few drinks. So while he spends a few racks, I may buy a plant or two. Depressing. 

My oto's were about the same price, but I trust Aquarium Concepts more than Petco. I forget what Amano's cost here but I think they are well over $2. 

As for AFA, my wife is just about the only person who can get me to go to SF on BART (have anxiety stuff). Don't feel bad for not inviting me, I would have flaked. I also was mixing all day anyway. 

As for the algae, I just have to figure it out. Both types of algae seem to be my norm with high tech. I did reduce the lighting and I felt like I got the same algae, worse colors. I am just going to go back and clean more. My other option is to lower the CO2 and lighting. Sounds odd but I know it could work better, done it before, and had better color. I will figure it out.

You say I am smart, I don't know, haha. I will figure out a way to make it work. However, I will do my best to make it hard on myself.




On another note...I feel bad my tank is getting this much attention. There are so many better tanks on the forum, mine will hopefully look nice in time but even I am not feeling it. I will, I don't know how soon but not right now:icon_evil:icon_smil


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sorry, totally upping my thread all the time.

All my oto's lived through the night and actually have colored up to about normal levels. They also seem comfortable moving around the tank, not that they don't find a comfortable place. I know I need a few more days but it's promising. That's a major accomplishment for me, I usually struggle to get this far with these fish. Fingers crossed.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Sorry, totally upping my thread all the time.
> 
> All my oto's lived through the night and actually have colored up to about normal levels. They also seem comfortable moving around the tank, not that they don't find a comfortable place. I know I need a few more days but it's promising. That's a major accomplishment for me, I usually struggle to get this far with these fish. Fingers crossed.


Congrats! At least you see your otos, mine like to hide all day when the lights are on they only come out at night  (I check with a flashlight)


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

One of the hardest parts about a dutch scape is getting the plants to contrast against one another, so the 'groups' stand out from themselves. Broad leafed plants do well in front of smaller plants, if you want to place two smaller leafed plants near each other, you often see a red is put between them for contrast, or again, a more broad leafed plant to break them up. If dutch is your ultimate goal(or just general advice), it helps to plant only about an inch of the plant top, as opposed to planting a 6" stem. This lets the plant really root in for a long period before your first trim, it also makes things a little easier to visualize in terms of the groups. When you plant just the tops, you dont have a long flowing stem, you can more easily see how much space each plantlet is taking up, make sure its going to get enough light, and its not blocked out by the plants around it, this shows later in growth, most Dutch scape's achieve good straight growth from all stems by not 'overcrowing' them. 

As far as the algae, whats your co2 bps, light schedule? any surface scum?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> One of the hardest parts about a dutch scape is getting the plants to contrast against one another, so the 'groups' stand out from themselves. Broad leafed plants do well in front of smaller plants, if you want to place two smaller leafed plants near each other, you often see a red is put between them for contrast, or again, a more broad leafed plant to break them up. If dutch is your ultimate goal(or just general advice), it helps to plant only about an inch of the plant top, as opposed to planting a 6" stem. This lets the plant really root in for a long period before your first trim, it also makes things a little easier to visualize in terms of the groups. When you plant just the tops, you dont have a long flowing stem, you can more easily see how much space each plantlet is taking up, make sure its going to get enough light, and its not blocked out by the plants around it, this shows later in growth, most Dutch scape's achieve good straight growth from all stems by not 'overcrowing' them.
> 
> As far as the algae, whats your co2 bps, light schedule? any surface scum?


Thanks for the advice on planting a short topped plant. It's actually what I am doing a lot, which also makes it hard to understand what I am doing in the pics.

I have definitely grouped plants buy leaf size, color, and appearance but I am using unfamiliar plants and I am finding growth rate to be my biggest issue. Some of my fast growers are the worst because they only grow for about 3-4 days, then trim, then they don't grow for about 4-5 days so they are actually growing more slowly.

My other problem is obviously algae, and turning my lights down to avoid a huge outbreak, making me loose my reds. 

Lastly, I am being a bit stubborn and not pulling plants that just don't work, while not adding some plants I have on backup until things grow in more. I also am trying to miniaturize what should be in a 120+ gallon tank into a 17ish gallon tank. 

As for CO2, I had it basically to the max, BPS was about 2/sec but I don't go off that. Basically, it was as high as I could go without gassing my fish. It's off until new fish acclimate. Light schedule that works best is 10 hours of 24wx2, with 3 hours of extra 24x2 (T5HO) how I have my light hung. Surface scum was initially a problem but now is not.

Moving forward, I think I need to simplify this a bit but I am focusing on trying to get better color first. My fast growers are going to have to be replaced, as said, they grow to fast to where they are trimmed and shocked more than growing. The other issue (outside of algae and color) is pulling more plants out.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I have to say, I am becoming very frustrated with this tank. I ripped out all the unknown Rotala on the left because it was green and wanted more color. Replaced it with some Rotala Singapore and that has gone from a good reddish orange to a yellow green, even towards to the top of the tank. More frustrating, the Rotala I took out that was green is getting some awesome color in my 20 long holding tank with a 30 Coralife T5NO, about 3 inches off the rim. The holding tank gets absolutely no ferts, which is likely the source of the coloration. Not even no ferts, it dosn't even have substrate, much less fish. 

For now I am going to just keep things as they are and will take some trimmings of plants really enjoy and see how they do in the 20 long. I will then consider the same idea of this tank, but on a low tech level. Most plants I have will do OK in low light, some I am not sure about. Then I can take my CO2 setup out and use it on a new nano I have been wanting to build.

The flip side is just totally reevaluating every part of this tank. I can get good coloration with both banks of bulbs on 4x24 watt T5HO but the flip side is algae issues. I am going to try to up the CO2 more, not sure I really can, after my oto's have been in for a week. Then I will take my autodoser out of the equation so I am absolutely sure my dosing is correct. Probably new bulbs to go with that. 

I don't know, I am considering a low tech route pretty strongly. Low tech doesn't mean I can't have color, I have found ways to get great color in low tech. The only part of low tech I don't like is it's boring and takes forever to grow in. But, my tank is taking forever to go nowhere anyway. Low tech is seeming appealing. It's ironic because I have been incredibly successful with low tech and I think that is why it's so hard for me to want to go that way. I like the experimentation with high tech.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Man... sounds like you are in a conundrum. Although I have an appreciation for well executed low-tech tanks, high-tech offers just more interaction and excitement. I have a few low-tech tanks which can only exist because I have a few high-tech going...LOL BUT, IMO, ADA really shines in a high-tech state. Just something about the name and sexy rimless that go hand-in-hand. 

Remind me again. If ferts are on point and co2, then it may be the bulbs. Did you swap those out to giesemann midday and/or powerchrome aquaflora? You can have a crap load of high PAR, but if spectrum is off from old bulbs or low quality ones, the plants just tend to fade to green, IME... take the Finnex Ray 2 for instance. Loads of PAR, but lots of complaints of fading red plants... that is until spectrum is supplemented with a Monster Ray or changes to the fixtures, as with what is now being offered in the Planted+.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Brian_Cali77 said:


> Man... sounds like you are in a conundrum. Although I have an appreciation for well executed low-tech tanks, high-tech offers just more interaction and excitement. I have a few low-tech tanks which can only exist because I have a few high-tech going...LOL BUT, IMO, ADA really shines in a high-tech state. Just something about the name and sexy rimless that go hand-in-hand.
> 
> Remind me again. If ferts are on point and co2, then it may be the bulbs. Did you swap those out to giesemann midday and/or powerchrome aquaflora? You can have a crap load of high PAR, but if spectrum is off from old bulbs or low quality ones, the plants just tend to fade to green, IME... take the Finnex Ray 2 for instance. Loads of PAR, but lots of complaints of fading red plants... that is until spectrum is supplemented with a Monster Ray or changes to the fixtures, as with what is now being offered in the Planted+.


I have not replaced the bulbs yet. With the holidays coming up, trying to save every penny as this year will be expensive. If I change out all 4, it would be pretty costly. I may try to do two bulbs and then I would keep my 6,7000 and rosette bulb. We will see.

Trust me, I feel you on ADA and high tech. I was thinking, if I go low tech, I may as well get rid of my inline heater, lily pipes, filter and just use a HOB and an intank heater, haha. 

I was also thinking, in an idea world, I could just swap the fixture from my holding tank over to the 60P. I just gave away another one that had good bulbs, I actually have a 3rd with no bulbs. The cost to replace the bulbs is more than I want to spend for an experiment, especially considering it's a 30 inch fixture I wouldn't use even if it worked. Then I realized I do have two 10 gallon hoods I could use. 

So, I may swap the fixture over soon and just test the differences for a week. I do have a lot of algae so it may not be a good test. I could keep the CO2 going but I think that may help with algae, but not with color. 

I am not sure my ferts are on point either. I have been doing EI but I haven't had the best of luck getting color with EI. In the past, when I have messed around, I usually did more harm than good. 

Just for fun, here is a terrible picture of the holding tank. This Rotala was about the same color as HM before I moved it (2 days ago). I feel the color portrayed is impressive going to much lower light for 2 days but it's even more red than it shows. It's not just the top growth either and the light is higher than the rim of the tank, actually almost the same height as it would be if on the rim of my 60P.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Conundrum PT 2. I decided, I can put my old fixture on the ADA and just wait a week. Well, with the 6,700k, colormax combo, my good reds just became brilliant reds. Don't get me wrong, the tank is extremely unattractive to look at but the reds look incredible. I also don't know if I can deal with my tank being this dim.

I am running a 6,700/10,000 combo on one bank, 10,000k/rosette on the other. I knew I had too much blue in the mix (an extra 10,000K) so I may just go get another bulb. Even though I am not a fan of Coralife bulbs, I just get a colormax bulb for $15 and see what happens. Either a 6,700/10,000 on one bank, Colormax/Rosette on the other, or 6,7000/rosette, 10,000/rosette, whatever looks better. 

We will see where this goes. I don't have a lot to do today so I may make this more complicated than it needs to be haha.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sooo....yeah....I don't know what is going on. I did a 50% water change and lost 3 fish. Not my new oto's, my Rummy nose that seemed very hardy and have been around. I thought back to the last time I had this issue and it was when I was experimenting with adding a lot more ferts than I should have been. Then it hit me, I have not done a water change in awhile, it is college football season and I have been way more busy than I have in awhile. 

Now I am thinking my issues are an excess of ferts. I have no basis for this, just a hypothesis. I can get good reds in low tech but part of that is not having much ferts. 

So now I am wondering, what are a few test kits that are accurate? I think if I have 2 or 3 that are accurate, I basically assume that I am pretty on track. 

That led me to another thought, I have never tested my water for ferts to begin with so I am basically totally blind here. I can't fix my problems if I don't know what the problem is.

While I figure all that out, I have decided, since I already took the time to change out the lights, disconnect the auto doser, I will keep this low tech and just see what happens. I am running like .25 BPS right now, just to prevent water going back into the reg and hopefully having my diffuser not clog (though I plan to clean it anyway so that isn't really an issue). 

Even though I am not loving my tank, I did a minor trim and it looks better than it did. The new light is bringing out some color, even the little bit of yellows in the middle that usually seem 100% green. I can't take any credit for the back corners, that is AFA's work.

Lastly, it's weird having a light just on the tank. I am so used to having the light off the tank, I really don't like it. I will also say that my Coralife T5NO seems extremely dull in appearance compared to 2 bulbs of T5HO much higher above the tank.

Here is how it looks now. There is some debris on the substrate as I cleaned my outflow while on the tank (not totally clean either).


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Don't give up on high tech! I think once a person gets comfortable with high tech, low tech would be way easier. 

I don't even think your tank looks bad, it just needs to start growing out more. When I look at this tank, I just see a normal tank that will look awesome once the plants fill in.

Why not just copy AFA's 60P, do what they do with their tank. You said you lived close to them right?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Don't give up on high tech! I think once a person gets comfortable with high tech, low tech would be way easier.
> 
> I don't even think your tank looks bad, it just needs to start growing out more. When I look at this tank, I just see a normal tank that will look awesome once the plants fill in.
> 
> Why not just copy AFA's 60P, do what they do with their tank. You said you lived close to them right?


I don't like my tank but that doesn't mean it can't be fixed. As for going low tech or not, I can always go back if I go low tech. 

As for AFA, I live kind of close. I wouldn't go out there just to go there, I have friends out that way and like SF to go out. If I were to go on any given day, it's about 1 hour each way. Drive time shorter than that, not by much but with parking and potential backups, it's about what I plan for.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

Oh it's not that bad! 

As for the test kits they can be good just need to calibrate. I wouldn't worry too much as your water was fine before. Your first tank was great with that water. 

Do a couple of water changes to get the ferts back down to normal ppm levels and start growing back again. 

This will at least strip the nutrients from the water so the algae doesn't have stuff to feed on. 

Even though these tanks are supposed to be calming to look at sometimes they can stress ya out more than helping (like algae issues). But it's really rewarding when you beat it. Hang in there!


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> Even though these tanks are supposed to be calming to look at sometimes they can stress ya out more than helping (like algae issues). But it's really rewarding when you beat it. Hang in there!


Yeah, for me, it's just been a constant "one thing after another". 

When I say I have been incredibly successful with low tech, one thing about that is I have basically been able to get all the results of high tech but better. For example, my last 20 long was high tech with HC and rocks. After a few months, I still wasn't extremely happy with where I was at. However, here is a journal from a few years ago where I had my HC fill in, for basically nothing, in about 2 months:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103106

Not that I love the scape but this was some nice HC and I got pearling every day. I have had some seriously colorful reds in low tech.

That said, I am hedging my bets right now. I am keeping everything intact but going to run my T5NO fixture for a bit. I will use Excel as well daily. No CO2 for now. My hopes are to see the algae subside. 

If I am still getting good color with this light, while reducing algae, I will up the CO2 and see if I get the same color or worse. If colors get worse, which I suspect, I will go back to my other light. If colors get better or stay the same, I will reevaluate my lighting. 

The other thing this does is give me a safer margin of error while I add fish. 

I guess this is part of the fun/frustration too, trying to verify or validate my theories. In the last 3-4 years, the hobby has really been me just doing what I feel is correct. What initially made it fun was consistent experimenting and trying things that people told me wouldn't work.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, I will likely take some pictures tonight. Both this reply and pictures are probably a lot more helpful to me as I read through my journals every few months when I hit a new issue. 

Anyway, as I suspected, some plants got new color and look better, others seem to be loosing some. The main one doing much better is Hygro Brown. Getting a nice, dark, magenta type color. My R. wallichii is growing more densely without quite as much deep red but still is more attractive. On the flip side, my R. Singapore is going green, though one stem is still red. Then my R. macrandra is loosing color, absolutely no surprise there.

This is less a very short time period so we will see where this goes. I am hoping to see some color out of my l. aromatica, not that it's important as I now know I am going back to high tech, but I do just want to remember my goal of putting it there.

Because I added new fish, I will keep it low tech for the time being. See what a few days will do. 

The major benefit here is my oto's are getting rid of quite a bit of algae, even in the last 24 hours. It may be better water quality, it may be that they have adapted by my feeling is they are more inclined to be out in lower light levels. 

Once I get a hold on this algae, which may be a lot quicker than I thought, I will see where I want to proceed. It is a good "reset" that I think I need for this tank.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So here are some picture updates. My camera is not good so you can't see how much algae has cleared up but it's been fairly dramatic. I credit the oto's, more than the change of other things but algae was coming very fast before, it seemingly has slowed down. 

Though this tank is still fundamentally the same as when I first started, I am liking it a lot more, now that it's a lot cleaner. However, I still have a long way to go. I have obviously not done much with the left, right, or foreground. I have some ideas for all. The main thing is getting the foreground/mid foreground in place. Right now, the foreground has close to 1/3 of the tank real estate. The fact is, some places it may go back that far but I will have a mid/foreground that will come as close to 2 inches from the glass. I have not figured out what plants as of yet.

As for pictures, it looks about the same but I find it a lot better looking, just with the lack of algae, etc.









Here is a picture of what was told to me to be Hygro Brown. You can see that even one leaf back, it was totally green before.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Sup tal, 

Is your heart set on a Dutch tank? You could rearrange the tank into a scape with depth and rocks/woods. Right now it has a very flat feel, which I suppose is more inline with a dutch tank. I looked at your other HC Cuba tank with rocks, I think that would look awesome with your 60P.

Either way, I think it's coming along. I just feel as if there no central theme or focus with your current scape. 

Hope you don't mind the criticism.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Sup tal,
> 
> Is your heart set on a Dutch tank? You could rearrange the tank into a scape with depth and rocks/woods. Right now it has a very flat feel, which I suppose is more inline with a dutch tank. I looked at your other HC Cuba tank with rocks, I think that would look awesome with your 60P.
> 
> ...


I am not set on a Dutch tank but I have really wanted to do one for some time. I had no idea I would get a 60P as a gift and having a tank that is taller than deep made me say, let me try this out. More over than that, it was a wedding gift so I really want to honor what my wife wants from that standpoint, and it's in the living room as well. She is not a big fan of natural and likes color better.

I do agree it looks flat. Trust me, when I say I think it looks ugly in above posts, I am not lying. However, I do like some variety, especially in the main room people see. My last tank was quite the same idea as the journal I liked, just a 20 long instead. Here is a pic, not that I had an excellent layout or anything.. I never quite finished it:










That said, I have seen a few tanks that are very much stem only but have a lot more scaping going on. I have considered going a different route more than a few times. However, I have struggled with this setup (light/co2/tank balance) to where I don't mind waiting to get it right before I go a different route.

I know I can sound "emo" and I know I can be that way but I haven't "nailed" a display type tank in awhile. I may combine natural with some good color, I really would love to move this tank to our bedroom, put our bedroom nano in my studio, and put a 90P in the front room. I am _very _stubborn and want to make sure I get on the right track before I plan any moves, not that I have the money for a 90p anyway.

Just saying, I totally feel you. However, I really think with a few changes I can make this a more appealing tank. Then, I give myself a chance to make changes. If wife agrees, we are all good. I don't want to throw my wife under the bus either, she's not too picky, she just wants things to look nice and feel like I am not taking over the home.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

Damn dude. You really know how to use your space in that tank. I know its a small tank. You got everything lined up and it still looks open.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Here is an update after about 5 days of being low tech. Although not shocking, I will say I am pleasantly surprised how this is going. I thought in particular that the R. macrandra would struggle (back right corner). As you can see, the color is back, and actually really strong on some of the leaves. The R. Singapore (left corner) has yet to color up back to when I bought it and though it's hard to tell in the picture, it is getting more color, day by day. Even the Limnophila aromatica is getting some color up top but still struggling. The only plant that doesn't seem to be improving, but still isn't getting worse, is what was sold to me as Nesaea red. Not sure that is what it is now, but that may have to go. Sucks as I bought so much of it, only 1/3 is in this tank.

I know I have been posting a bunch of pictures but I really wanted to remember where I am at before I trim. I am going to trim back pretty hard to day as I want all the uncolored green in the middle to be cut where visible. Also, some plants are growing a lot more upward, rather that outwards so I think it will give me some room. Tank will not likely look good for a few weeks.

Here are the most recent:





























And for comparison, right before I switch lighting and turned the CO2 off:


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, I know I update a lot but I actually use my journals to teach myself and even read some of my first when I have had an issue before (actually one of the reasons I switched to low tech after reading an old journal). I can now say that my tank is basically 100% algae free. I am not sure where I am going to go, after my stems recover, I may stay low tech, I may go back to high tech. If I go back to high tech, I seriously have to learn/relearn mode because I really don't know what I am doing wrong but I can see I have more than ample light. That will be decided later, I do want to start adding CO2 again and see how that works, but with a much lower light level. I also use "low tech" loosely. IMO, there really isn't a "medium tech" as much as there used to be. I consider low tech to be no injected CO2, no complex fert routine, no complex lighting system. 

I did want to post a picture after a trim to give a better idea of what is going on. You can see that my tank is pretty much full. On one side, it's fun because I am basically done, outside of letting the tank grow into itself and manicuring it. On the flip side, though I wanted to try a bunch of new plants, I didn't leave enough space for some I really love. I will likely make some changes, just saying, now it's time to be patient. 

The main plant I see potentially ripping out is the Limnophila aromatica. I always thought this would be my favorite plant as I love it in pictures but I just haven't had much luck with it coloring up. The second that may go is Hygro Brown. I honestly got this as a ROAK from Psiorian at the start of this tank and didn't know much about it. I like it but I stayed away from L. Repens for a certain reason so far and this may have the same issues. If I rip both out, which I am not planning to yet, I will have a TON of room.

Ironically enough, I planned on this taking about 3-4 months to get somewhere. I am just past the 2 month mark, if you consider the fact I moved the (unplanted) tank into the equation. Though It's taking me less time than I thought to get this far, though having a bunch of trouble in the process, it feels slow. I keep seeing peoples tanks develop in a month or less and forget how I do things.

Ok, on to the boring pics, recent hard trim:


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Coming along nicely! 

I notice that the majority of plants will need a period to adjust to different settings. Going from High to Low might be more stressful than low to high, if that makes any sense. 

What I mean is, are you completely sure you want low tech? Maybe give the tank a bit more time to mature? 

I personally thought your original scape was great, it just needed to grow out more. Besides, low tech isn't fun


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Coming along nicely!
> 
> I notice that the majority of plants will need a period to adjust to different settings. Going from High to Low might be more stressful than low to high, if that makes any sense.
> 
> ...


Well, I set this up for high tech for a reason. Had I had initial success, it would not be a question. I am going to feel out the low tech side for now. 

Quite honestly, if I do go low tech, I don't even know that I would part with my light. I was looking on CL the other day an my light isn't even worth a new low tech light. Kind of sucks, I would love to try a more extensive LED setup, if I went low tech. 

Anyway, there are some pro's and con's of each. With low tech, I know how to make the con's into pro's. For example, you can increase coloring in low tech with a 12-14 hour photoperiod. Not only does it increase viewing time, colors become much more vibrant. The downside would normally be algae but if set up right, the downside is minimal to nothing. The other big plus in a tank like this is that once it's pretty much where I want, I only need to trim 1-3 inches every few weeks, not 1+ inch growth daily. So, it cuts down on maintenance. 

We all know the pro's of high tech, the cons I am having is I am getting all the negatives (algae in mass) with no positives (lack of color, growth is stunted due to algae covered plants, etc). 

I will just have to see. The benefit of going low tech is that I have a CO2 rig to play with on a nano in the future. I have yet to do a high tech nano for any period of time. I really need some sort of tank in my home recording studio. I would enjoy a natural scape which would benefit from CO2 greatly (carpet plants). We will see.

BTW, I am not a huge fan of driftwood scapes. My wife hates Iwagumi. So, this may be the compromise for the living room, she isn't that picky when it comes to this tank but doesn't care at all for any tanks not in the living room

I will just see how it goes.

I may change the title to "Mini Dutch 60P---Mad emo and indecisive" haha


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Could you use some desktop lamps for lower light? Maybe two lamps with 13watts bulbs? The wife might not like the idea though, they look a bit tacky to use on anything beside a desk.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Could you use some desktop lamps for lower light? Maybe two lamps with 13watts bulbs? The wife might not like the idea though, they look a bit tacky to use on anything beside a desk.


I would just use something similar to what I am using now which is a Coralife T5NO fixture. The only reason I wouldn't just continue using this fixture is the fact it's 30in. I saw the 24 inch at Petsmart for pretty cheap. Or I can cut down an extra 30 inch and save a few bucks (literally a few bucks) and just buy new bulbs. I am thinking about the second option as it will have 4 watts more which may allow me to run T5HO bulbs. The reason for wanting that option is just long term, it's really hard to find T5NO bulbs. 

I am also thinking about trying my old fixture at 2x24 T5HO. I may run into algae issues. My fixture is adjustable from right off the rim to about 7 feet over the tank so I have some wiggle room there haha. It's just getting it setup up and this other solution seems to be working.

I don't know, as much as I am not a fan of Coralife anymore, this seems to be working and the fixtures are really low profile so I do think it would compliment the look of the tank. 

Anyway, lengthy post but I think I am covered for any light level between what I already have. I don't want to experiment until after my plants recover from the trim.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

That Coralife sound good for a low tech. There are stories of people with HC Cuba carpet with low tech. The legend says, HC Cuba can be done with excel and low light. Merely whispers among the older crowd of hobbyist, but a thought none the less.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> That Coralife sound good for a low tech. There are stories of people with HC Cuba carpet with low tech. The legend says, HC Cuba can be done with excel and low light. Merely whispers among the older crowd of hobbyist, but a thought none the less.


I think I may have already linked it but here you go. Not that I loved the scape but it was one of the easiest tanks I have ever done in terms of everything else:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103106


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

^ Yes I know, I was trying to be funny. :icon_eek: Canadian humour is very dry I suppose.

I'm guessing you will do another HC Cuba carpet for this tank?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Oh, OK, haha. I am still deciding between Echinodorus tenellus and Hydrocotyle japan. The Echinodorus tenellus is developing nice red veins in the leaves so that was a front runner but the Hydrocotyle japan is growing crazy small leaves now that I am low tech, around the size of glosso so I like that. However, I don't think the Hydrocotyle will carpet under current lighting so if I keep it, I will have to trim it about once a week or every two weeks.


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## Psiorian (Jun 23, 2013)

talontsiawd said:


> Oh, OK, haha. I am still deciding between Echinodorus tenellus and Hydrocotyle japan. The Echinodorus tenellus is developing nice red veins in the leaves so that was a front runner but the Hydrocotyle japan is growing crazy small leaves now that I am low tech, around the size of glosso so I like that. However, I don't think the Hydrocotyle will carpet under current lighting so if I keep it, I will have to trim it about once a week or every two weeks.


Mix the carpet? and have the Hydrocotyle "float" around the Echinodorus tenellus till you get fustrated and rip one of the two out?


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Psiorian said:


> Mix the carpet? and have the Hydrocotyle "float" around the Echinodorus tenellus till you get fustrated and rip one of the two out?


Probably exactly what will happen. If it is the Hydrocotyle, I will likely reuse it in a much smaller area though.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

Go with the hydrocotyle


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, way to many words from me in this tread but I would love some guidance.

I am using R. macrandra as an "indicator plant". Though some has really intense red and has an awesome compactness to it, some is loosing color. I am not trying to jump back on the high tech bandwagon quite yet, I do want to see how this goes but I feel going back to high tech is inevitable anyway.

I have never been that great at growing colorful plants in high tech. Especially with a raised fixture. Even with low light, plants will grow red when an inch from the fixture.

My question/inquiry is what dosing method is your favorite? When I started, EI was the only one I understood that didn't use test kits and all that. Everyone who did differently had a lot of experience. We we all making are tweeks to EI and that was about it. Now we have a lot more going on.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Ok, so here is the last low tech picture as I hooked back up my autodoser and took of my Coarlife light. I will be running 2x24 watt T5HO. I will continue the same fert routine for now, but make sure to keep up on water changes. The tank is 100% algae free right now so it should be more obvious what the problems are. I actually have not cleaned the tank once since pulling the co2, ferts, and lighting. The otos cleaned it for me. 

One thing that is bugging me is the color change, just from the lights. The R. macrandra looks super dull, worse than the pictures. I hope it colors up more but I may need to start saving up for new bulbs, at least on my main bank. 

I do need to do a small maintaince trim as some plants are coming back quicker than others and I also may need to thin some out. Here it is as of today:


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

You could, if you wanted, put back on the T5 and raise it up maybe 6 inches and heavily dose a liquid carbon. The macrandra will respond much better to that, IMO. I think the problem with the macrandra right now is co2/carbon related. It appears to me that the leaves are constricted and very thin. A carbon source with the light you have now would help tremendously in color, shape, and overall health of the plant. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

keats said:


> You could, if you wanted, put back on the T5 and raise it up maybe 6 inches and heavily dose a liquid carbon. The macrandra will respond much better to that, IMO. I think the problem with the macrandra right now is co2/carbon related. It appears to me that the leaves are constricted and very thin. A carbon source with the light you have now would help tremendously in color, shape, and overall health of the plant.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


I will try that. Before I switched to the low tech light setup, I was dosing 10ML of Excel daily. That was mostly for algae reasons but I didn't really see the R. macrandra change much. I was at the upper limit of what I could inject with CO2 as well. I figured R. macrandra would be the main plant to suffer in low tech but I just wanted to try it out. That said, it really didn't change much, a lot of it is the color rendering of the lights. Just switching the lights made it look way worse. 

Anyway, that said, R. macrandra has always been an extremely hard plant for me to grow over the years. I want to blame my water but I have seen more than a few people grow this plant well in my area so I know it's possible. I am not any expert at growing red plants in general so I don't even want to guess what my issues are but I think it's excess ferts right now.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Would it work if you hook up Co2 and just had a lower bps? Sort of like a low tech with a boost of stable Co2, I'm thinking the added Co2 can't hurt. 

What kind of fertilizers are you adding? Would the ADA Soil and the fish food be enough for a low tech? 

I'm starting to think low techs are harder to do then high.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Would it work if you hook up Co2 and just had a lower bps? Sort of like a low tech with a boost of stable Co2, I'm thinking the added Co2 can't hurt.
> 
> What kind of fertilizers are you adding? Would the ADA Soil and the fish food be enough for a low tech?
> 
> I'm starting to think low techs are harder to do then high.


I have done both, using low amounts of CO2 or none. If you have a basically algae free tank, adding low amounts of CO2 can have a great effect on growth without any negatives of high tech, except adding ferts. In a low tech setup without CO2, with a nutrient rich substrate, you can really get away without any dosing until you actually see deficiencies. 

It may seem more challenging to dose for deficiencies but it's really not. For example, if I see plants loosing color or leaves start changing shape, I don't dose per that deficiency, I just dose an EI amount of everything, or some Flourish Comprehensive and wait until the next time. 

The same idea would apply to a lower light tank with CO2. But at that point, you may as well jump up to 30PPM because there is no reason not to. The downside is that you likely need to start dosing daily or atleast routinely. 

CO2 in an otherwise low tech setup is actually a really easy way to get a really lush, easy to deal with tank. Sounds great and it can be if you are content to limit your plants. CO2 will not make up for lack of light so you won't get intense reds or get a plant that can't carpet in the amount of light you have to carpet. So, you have that limitation. I have found that their are plenty of red plants that don't need a ton of light, as well as plants that carpet well without a ton of light. It's a great way to go. However, once you are in the hobby long enough, and have the equipment to do more, it's hard to set limits on yourself. I often consider going this route.

My personal problem is that I am very stubborn, yet fairly patient which makes it easy for me to make my life harder. Going low tech for a bit was probably the first time in a while in this hobby where I said, hey, this could be easier and did so, but I new I would have to change out some plants long term. That's probably where this tank will come together as well, once I start getting sick of plants that are not doing well, find an easier substitute. That's really the way to go for a long term type scape anyway.


Hope that makes sense, if you look at my 6 gallon, you will see that my tank never has algae but I also never clean it, and rarely fertilize it. I just need to find a go to carpet plant besides Riccia as that hasn't stayed down well long term and adds a ton of maintenance. I could use moss as well, just not a huge fan of moss myself.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

So, lack luster update. I have been neglecting the tank. I don't know how long it's been without ferts. I don't know why but I seem to be able to get BGA better since I moved. Not sure if it's my water or something, but it comes back with any neglect.

Having the same issues. The easy plants grow well, the plants that could be red are green, and the plants that never look good green look bad. I have never had a ton of luck with red plants in high tech so I am just not worrying. Especially since I have not been up on my ferts anyway. 

Kind of uninspired about the tank right now, both because I have other things requiring my attention, as well as things are not going as planned. I think I may add some more easy to grow plants and skip the hard ones. Likely not immediately and I may extend the photoperiod and see what happens. I find that it is easy to get more color that way, but the changes of algae outbreaks go up.

Didn't even clean the tank or pull out a decent camera. I did want to take some full shots that don't work with my other camera as I love seeing how other people's tanks look in the room. Here are some horrible pics for you guys and gals.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Non picture update....well, this tank has been seriously neglected to the point I may have to start over. Making things worse, I accidentally killed all my fish. I usually use cold water to fill my tanks. I didn't think to touch the water when refilling until after I had topped off the tank, about 3 gallons (serious neglect). I don't know if it was new water or the extremely cold temperature of the water but my fish didn't survive. My tank was well below normal temp even a full day after top off. I thought my heater had failed at first but I guess the inline heater, combined with a slow filter, it just wasn't up to the task of heating up a large amount of water quickly. I feel very stupid making a mistake that kills all my fish when I have been in the hobby this long. More importantly, it makes me feel irresponsible. 

I have strongly considered getting out of the hobby. However, at the same time, my 6 gallon is going fine with the same amount of work (none). It could use a trim, it isn't scaped to perfection, but it's attractive. 


I really need to decide where I want to go with this. Not looking for advice on the hobby, per say, as I it's really hard for someone to convince someone to stay back in the hobby but I have some ideas that may get me back.

1. Would a Satellite Freshwater LED+ work well without CO2? I am not against using CO2 but I am not doing the maintenance associated with it. I want to go back to low tech for sure. In the interim, I can use my Coralife T5NO fixture. Not looking to drop money now, but lighting will need to change.

2. Will Aquasoil be in the ball park of a dirted tank? I typically only use about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of soil in my dirted tanks which seems to do fine for about 1 to 1.5 years. After that, I may have to add some Flourish Comprehensive from time to time but that is it. If I can get about the same with AS, then it will be fine for me. 

3. My high tech tanks seem to attract BGA quickly when neglected. My low tech tanks never get it. Is it likely that it will go away with different lighting and no CO2. My gut tells me "no" and I should nuke it but I am curious if anyone has gone low tech and successfully conquered BGA with just a lighting change. 


I think my only goal for this tank is to change the light out and see what changes. I will turn the CO2 off, stop dosing, and go from there. Then I will likely let it just grow into a jungle, one that will hopefully have very little maintenance and algae. 

Sad that I finally got all nice equipment and I now want to quit. I think Dutch was too ambitious for my skill level. One major issue without having hard scape is that when your tank looks bad, you have no redeeming factor, it's just ugly across the board. Before I even think about a restart, I just want to make sure I have something I can manage.


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## Brian_Cali77 (Mar 19, 2010)

Things can spiral out of control rather quickly in a high tech build if you get complacent -- which you know. If you can't allocate the time or enthusasim to maintain it, and you still have a little interest in the hobby, I'd definitely go low tech. 

I've seen that you posted already in mihnata's ADA 60p Low-Tech "Cheburashka"... I think her tank/build is looking pretty darn good for being low tech with the Sat+. I say go for it! She seems to being having success with a 60p, AquaSoil, and Sat+ combo. I really like my Sat+ fixtures... they're so versatile with the color options and dynamic modes.


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## mihnata (Aug 1, 2012)

I have to say, I *LOVE* Sat+ fixture! Probably my best investment. When I got some kind of algae due to high nutrients and no CO2, all I did is water changes and reduced light intensity. Now, when all algae is gone, I put it back on brightest. I find it really useful to be able to find the setting which work best for me. I don't really use the presets or dynamic modes, but if somebody comes over I just have to show off  +))


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Don't quit bro, remember that this is your tank and it's for your own amusement. If it's a low tech and you get joy out of it, your goal is met. Make the tank fit you, no one else is going to look down on you for having less fert, less light and less Co2. 

Your tank looks fine right now anyways. I think you can still keep the layout and just go slow if it fits your schedule better. 

There is no timeline for progression, no top 10 IAPLC placing at the 3rd year mark, no expectation. Remember, some of those gorgeous tanks are done by people trying to make a living. Planted aquariums is their livelihood while just a hobby to us "mortals".


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

FlyingHellFish said:


> Don't quit bro, remember that this is your tank and it's for your own amusement. If it's a low tech and you get joy out of it, your goal is met. Make the tank fit you, no one else is going to look down on you for having less fert, less light and less Co2.
> 
> Your tank looks fine right now anyways. I think you can still keep the layout and just go slow if it fits your schedule better.
> 
> There is no timeline for progression, no top 10 IAPLC placing at the 3rd year mark, no expectation. Remember, some of those gorgeous tanks are done by people trying to make a living. Planted aquariums is their livelihood while just a hobby to us "mortals".


I understand but my tank does not look fine, plus I killed off all my fish, 5 years into the hobby. Not trying to win an award, though I do think I got ahead of myself. Not trying to make a living here, I have done that with music and I know what it takes to go from hobbyist to professional. 

I know I sound really self deprecating but at the same time, I am just really over this tank, at least at high tech. I don't have ottos to clean up since I killed them. However, I think using my Coarlife fixture, then maybe upgrading to a Current may allow me to have a nice looking tank without it being my job. I loved it being my part time job for so long but I can't hack it right now....

Anyway, here is the tank it all it's glory. I hope to sell the light and make enough or close to what it will cost for the Current.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I did get some chance to clean the tank today. I am probably not going to deal with the BGA immediately, I just want to see what happens. I did a 50% water change. I plan to do this a lot for awhile. If the BGA gets worse, I will nuke it. 

Unfortunately, my heater failed. I need to check the box and see what the warranty is on it. It doesn't matter in the short term as I don't have any fish anymore. I also retired my auto dosing setup, at least for the time being. I am keeping my CO2 setup but only running about 10 bubbles per second. I may give up on high light but I am not sure about CO2 yet. I mainly don't want anything to back siphon so I figured I will run it for now. 

Lastly, before I dump money into this, I figured I would try cutting down my light, just like I did with the first. I basically took a 30in Coralife T5NO fixture and found the difference in bulb length was 5.5 inches. This can be done without splicing wires but I didn't think about it until after the fact. Was pretty simple to do. I am running T5HO bulbs right now, under driving them at 18 watts each. Should probably switch to T5NO bulbs but if it works, it works. I do like the slim profile of the light but it also doesn't reach the back well so it may or may not work. In the past, I would raise them up about 1 inch but I will see how much I care.

From here to the foreseeable future, I am just going to run this low tech again. I hope the BGA goes away. Any other algae, I will use algae fix or Excel/H2O2 on. I will likely trim back the foreground hard as I know that everything grew quite a bit more compact last time I dialed down the light. 


Anyway, I cleaned it up a fair amount and trimmed a lot. Unfortunately I had to through away almost a gallon pitcher of plants as I did not want to give these to anyone. 

Here are new pics. I will take one further back in the future as the new light looks a lot sleeker.


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Sorry, not to whore my thread more but I am officially retiring that light. Even if I go high tech again, it is just something about it where I never had success. If anything, I may actually go with 2 Coarlife lights again, my first successful high tech setup. 

I only post this as since the stand is pretty low already, and I have had this light big old light hanging since I moved any. Compared to some pics above, you can see how different it looks. 

Oh, an my wife told me this. "The tank looks a lot better. Don't get my wrong, it still looks like crap, just a lot better". Got a kick out of that.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Eh, brother... Why don't you take that light, get in the car, and safely get over to my place. You have a phone call incoming.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Non picture update since everything looks the same. I am noticing new growth and it's as expected, since I already did low tech. I am getting really slow growth but it looks healthier (not as leggy), more colorful, and more compact. The best part for me right now, it's slow. I think that is what I need, just a tank that exists, I don't do much and trim every month or so. I really think I picked the right direction to go in, considering that I am not so into it right now. 

I truly believe I can create an attractive low tech tank if it goes the same way as my last try, it will just take longer to grow in. However, that doesn't mean it will be slower, I haven't made a lot of progress since September. 


Like always, my favorite plant buddy is trying to twist my arm. That is a very fortunate thing, I am not complaining and I am still in the dark about a lot of the details. Nice when someone at that level of planted tanks steps in when I have trouble. I was drunk when he called so I had to hold off. Now I am sick, but will call soon. We will see where this goes from here but I may have some changes I am excited about. 

Anyway, I am just saying, I am happy and I want to say this...if you are having trouble with high tech, low tech just may be your thing. I don't know why I keep trying to prove to myself I suck at high tech, I have had one really nice high tech tank and a bunch of bad ones. My low techs always work out as planned. So, don't be like me and keep fighting the idea that high tech is the only way to go. I seriously just did a 180 on my feelings about my tank (was going to sell everything but the actual tank off), and now I am happy, haven't even dosed ferts and don't plan to. Just need to nuke the BGA. I also feel more comfortable with fish because I have always done better with them in low tech. I think I may do Guppies, how is that for an ADA tank...haha.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I am getting to love guppies: colorful and active. And if you get just 3, you will never run out.

v3


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> I am getting to love guppies: colorful and active. And if you get just 3, you will never run out.
> 
> v3


Well, I am hoping to get just males or females. I have only had them in nano sized tanks and even though their "goofy" behavior doesn't fit a natural style tank, it fits just about any other type. I overlooked this fish for a long time, getting hooked on Amano's work, thinking they were not "cool" enough, but I really think they are one of the most entertaining fish in behavior, plus you can get any color you would ever want.

I am legitly sick BTW. I will call you when I am feeling better.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Do get well soon. I also have some nice guppies for you, if you want them. For whatever reasons, my dwarf puffers do not touch neither fry nor adults. Go figure.

v3


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