# GREEN DUST ALGAE, i think i found the cure



## happi

GDA was keep on coming back and i have to clean the glass everyday, at Tom's Recommendation i added 14 bushy nose Pleco, they did help control the algae little bit but glass would be covered with GDA everyday. most of the bushy nose died one by one due to CO2 while other fishes were fine, i think BN are very sensitive to CO2, now i only have 4-5 left. during all these experiment i was Dosing EI and i have also noticed that adding more KNO3 made the GDA worse. 

now let me explain why GDA Occur, i know what am about to say would cause debate and there will be a disagreement but you have to try it yourself before questioning. i also discovered low PH water is Prone to GDA when using EI dosing, why? because when using KNO3, Bacteria have to convert NO3 back to NH4 for the plants, plants are normally covered with Bacteria who convert this, but in low PH water Bacteria aren't very active. this might explain why some people have problem when dosing EI and using very low PH. now on the other side EI worked very well in high PH water, keep in mind high PH water is beneficial for Bacteria and they are most active under these conditions. 

if you mix methods you get GDA, it explains why i was getting GDA while dosing my own recipe, because i already had tons of fert in the water to begin with, i suppose to do many water changes before i started dosing my recipe. let me explain it better, if you are dosing EI and then switch to Seachem while you already have tons of nutrients in the water, you are likely to get GDA. 

i do not get GDA after making the following changes:

Phosphate does not cause GDA, i now add 1ppm of PO4 3x week while using my own recipe which adds 1ppm NO3 and 0.7ppm of NH4 per day. i think having low NO3 might be the main reason GDA stooped and it had nothing to do with PO4. now plants are growing much better and GDA is slowly becoming dark black and falling off the plants, rocks etc. keep in mind my PH is very low and KH is 0. am now using more light than before and GDA hasn't returned yet, this will clear your doubt about who think GDA is caused by high light. 

*i think too much KNO3 was the real cause of GDA under lower PH tanks. i can Confirm PO4 was not the cause because i still dose the same amount 1ppm 3x week. *

i know we have many EI defenders out there and this Thread is most likely to see argument, debate, disagreement and let me be clear, i did not say EI doesn't work or cause Algae, i have said i found that having too much NO3 in low PH is Prone to GDA and EI is the only method which adds tons of NO3 in the water and i have already explained why this occur.

Try it before you disagree, it might take 2-3 weeks but you will get your answer after making those changes.


*NEW Update:*

lets start with this first:

http://translate.google.com/transla...ia/Chapters/Tech/liqfert-n_p.html#no3&act=url


The amide nitrogen is NH2.
All the problems associated with the introduction of an easily digestible for plants, but stimulating algal growth of the ammonium form of nitrogen NH4 + can easily be avoided by making an even better source of nitrogen for plants - amide nitrogen which is half of the nitrogen source in Seachem Flourish Nitrogen ™ . The amide nitrogen - are compounds in which the nitrogen bound in the form NH2. This will give aquatic plants easily digestible source of nitrogen like NH4 +, but is not available to power the algae:
"... This means that the ammonium nitrogen is not present as free ammonia or ammonium as well as part of a more complex molecule, which can be expanded to plant ammonia and recycling. Algae In theory it would also absorb, but our research and beta testing have shown that this does not occur (ie, very low and is not algae, many have documented that algae are down). " (Gregory Morin, Ph.D. Seachem Laboratories, Inc., Research Director - fins.actwin.com )


now lets take a look at algae:

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/8/1423.full.pdf


keep in mind NH4 and Urea doesn't stay in NH4 form for very long in the water, eventually it is converted to NO3 if plant doesn't use it, this is the only good reason to have good colony of bacteria, if you have low KH/Ph i suggest adding it in small amount. 

ok now lets start by looking at the graphs, if you look at it carefully you will see how Urea and NH4 can increase the Algae growth at much faster rate compare to NO3, but keep in mind, it shows algae growth increase as the days pass by, you wont see any urea or NH4 in your tank for more than couple of hours after adding it, any excess urea/NH4 will be converted to Nitrate within the same day or maybe next day, only NO3 levels can go up. now look at the graphs and you be the judge.

NH4 act as quick boost to plants and Algae and should be used in very small amount. start with 0.1ppm of NH4, Urea on the other hand works little different than the NH4, it break down into the plants in such a way that algae cannot get much chance to use it, something to do with algae lacking enzymes. Urea is better and can be used in higher dose than NH4, you can start with 0.5ppm of Urea if you want to test it. 

When using Urea, you must be careful not to overdose too much when using high lights, you will start to see some Blue green and slime algae on the leafs, this is a clear sign of too much light and excess Urea, if this happen dose less.

*NOTE:*

i apologize about one thing which no one knew or was confused about, i was also confuse about this, i came to find out bacteria has nothing to do with plant taking up Nitrate. someone told me that it does and i used that info till now, but this is not the truth. none of the members here pointed it out, but at the APC they pointed it out. But there could be some truth to it if someone here could explain it better.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/f...-cure-gda.html


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## tetra73

You PH would get low anyway with CO2. You also need to achieve the optimal NPK ratio. You can't starve your plants with low NO3 while still maintaining the same level of P and K.


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## happi

tetra73 said:


> You PH would get low anyway with CO2. You also need to achieve the optimal NPK ratio. You can't starve your plants with low NO3 while still maintaining the same level of P and K.


lower the PH goes the worse it gets for the bacteria, my starting PH is less than 6 already. i dont think i have said you should starve the plants, you should have some NO3 but there is no need to add tons of it, in hard water EI dosing should work perfect and in soft water no3 and nh4 should work better. i guess you miss the whole point here.


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## JL15219

What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> lower the PH goes the worse it gets for the bacteria, my starting PH is less than 6 already. i dont think i have said you should starve the plants, you should have some NO3 but there is no need to add tons of it, in hard water EI dosing should work perfect and in soft water no3 and nh4 should work better. i guess you miss the whole point here.


I've seen a lot of cases with softer KH's having GDA, but....then a no# of cases that had a lot of KH, 5-15, that still had bad cases of GDA.

Might be the case though. NO3 vs NH4. I had GDA in Goleta CA, the GH was 24 KH was 11, but I just changed the CO2 and the plants took off, and after 3 weeks, no GDA even again. 

GW took a lot of light + a lot of NH4, not sure how much exactly, nor could I rule out the lower CO2 as a possible cause, plenty of folks add NH4, without issues, so NH4 alone does not appear to be a cause for GW. Many have used Jobes sticks and these often pop up out of the sediment, and many got GW as a result. Could be slightly poor CO2+ NH4= algae, but NH4 alone = no algae in most cases.


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## happi

JL15219 said:


> What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?


No because you are not adding enough CO2, hard water require more co2 and its hard to dissolve co2 in hard water, poor plant growth and GDA is possible in case of hard water, i have already said you should not have much problem with NO3 when you have hard water, mainly higher PH and NO3 can be easily consumed and converted for plants with higher PH, this is where Bacteria play an important role. i have noticed in very soft water NO3 wasn't being consumed much and co2 was highest as fish could handle, plant growth was still poor until i start to reduce the NO3 and started dosing NH4, GDA started to disappear and plant took off. this is a clearn sign that i was lacking Bacteria which convert NO3 for plants, as i have very low PH.


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## ua hua

JL15219 said:


> What if I have really hard water with higher pH and still have GDA? Would nitrate still be the culprit?


This is what I would like to know. I have a kH of 12 and a gH of 5 and still have been getting GDA. I wouldn't say I have low pH either, my pH is at 6.5 by the end of the photo period. The GDA isn't as bad as I have had it before but it's definitely still persistent. I have tried the wait and scrape with no success but maybe I got a little too impatient and didn't wait long enough because I really got sick of looking at it after a week and a half.

I wouldn't say I have real high NO3 either as I usually dose that pretty lean with the fish load I have contributing the rest. I don't think the culprit to GDA is one thing in particular but rather several variables that lead to it showing up as is the case with any other type of algae. 

The next thing I will try is getting some more bushynose plecos as I had in my tank once before and never had much of an issue with GDA when I had several of them but haven't had any in my tank for the last year or so.


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## happi

plantbrain said:


> I've seen a lot of cases with softer KH's having GDA, but....then a no# of cases that had a lot of KH, 5-15, that still had bad cases of GDA.
> 
> Might be the case though. NO3 vs NH4. I had GDA in Goleta CA, the GH was 24 KH was 11, but I just changed the CO2 and the plants took off, and after 3 weeks, no GDA even again.
> 
> GW took a lot of light + a lot of NH4, not sure how much exactly, nor could I rule out the lower CO2 as a possible cause, plenty of folks add NH4, without issues, so NH4 alone does not appear to be a cause for GW. Many have used Jobes sticks and these often pop up out of the sediment, and many got GW as a result. Could be slightly poor CO2+ NH4= algae, but NH4 alone = no algae in most cases.


Well said Tom and i have already mentioned why it happens in the previous post.



ua hua said:


> This is what I would like to know. I have a kH of 12 and a gH of 5 and still have been getting GDA. I wouldn't say I have low pH either, my pH is at 6.5 by the end of the photo period. The GDA isn't as bad as I have had it before but it's definitely still persistent. I have tried the wait and scrape with no success but maybe I got a little too impatient and didn't wait long enough because I really got sick of looking at it after a week and a half.
> 
> I wouldn't say I have real high NO3 either as I usually dose that pretty lean with the fish load I have contributing the rest. I don't think the culprit to GDA is one thing in particular but rather several variables that lead to it showing up as is the case with any other type of algae.
> 
> The next thing I will try is getting some more bushynose plecos as I had in my tank once before and never had much of an issue with GDA when I had several of them but haven't had any in my tank for the last year or so.


far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.


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## ua hua

[QUOTE far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.[/QUOTE]

If it was just an issue of CO2 then why does the 6 gallon tank in my kids room using the same water not have any algae at all. The plants are moss, crypts, and windelov java fern and doesn't get dosed with anything. If it was just as simple as not enough co2 causing GDA then a tank that gets no co2 would have it wouldn't it. According to the co2/pH/kH chart with a pH of 6.8 and a kH of 12 I would have around 57.1 ppm of co2. I don't use my drop checker as a reference anymore but I still have it in the tank and it's yellow by 3 hours into the photo period. I don't know how much more I can push up the co2 before causing the fish stress. I don't think that things are always just a simple one thing is wrong therefore that is why you have this kind of algae. Usually a few variables out of balance and that sets forth your issues. Trying to narrow it down to one thing in particular is a little harder for me to accept.


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## happi

ua hua said:


> [QUOTE far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.





> If it was just an issue of CO2 then why does the 6 gallon tank in my kids room using the same water not have any algae at all. The plants are moss, crypts, and windelov java fern and doesn't get dosed with anything. If it was just as simple as not enough co2 causing GDA then a tank that gets no co2 would have it wouldn't it. According to the co2/pH/kH chart with a pH of 6.8 and a kH of 12 I would have around 57.1 ppm of co2. I don't use my drop checker as a reference anymore but I still have it in the tank and it's yellow by 3 hours into the photo period. I don't know how much more I can push up the co2 before causing the fish stress. I don't think that things are always just a simple one thing is wrong therefore that is why you have this kind of algae. Usually a few variables out of balance and that sets forth your issues. Trying to narrow it down to one thing in particular is a little harder for me to accept.


first of all you must think why we dose CO2, is it to help the plant grow under certain light conditions or do we add it just to gas the fish and kill them, light plays an important role when using co2. that tank you have mentioned might not have good enough light and GDA did not occur as system was stable enough to handle the things. you said the tank doesnt get any dosing, didn't i mention GDA occur when there was too much NO3? i have also said GDA was less when NO3 was less, this can apply to both low and high PH, but you are ok having high NO3 when PH is high. we can argue all day about why it did not happen when you used the same water in both tanks, am sure you are aware of Light being the driving force for algae and plants, how can both system or your tanks have exact same lights? it is also true low or high light GDA can occur in both system, but high light increase it 10 maybe 100 times faster. 

if you really want to challenge my theory, go use a 100% RO water and do not add any buffer and dose tons of NO3 and wait for the system to crash and you will get GDA and plant wont grow well either, i suggest doing this when you have ADA aqua soil or substrate that lower the PH. you might be able to get away with this low PH/KH causing GDA issue when using soil that increase the PH/KH such as Eco complete. 

this was a mystery until today when people used EI and said it did not work for them, this was the main reason as i explained, now they know why it did not work for them. 

people depend too much on co2 ph chart and drop checker, IME they both are inaccurate way to measure co2, they simply lie and only show some truth.


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## JoraaÑ

I been noticing the same thing as I stopped dosing kno3 in my tanks....why? Cause I'm out of it...Either this could be the reason or my Farlowella are taking care of the GDA. Will know for certain once I get Kno3.


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## manlyfan76

http://aquarium-fertilizer.com/nitrate-no3-and-phosphate-po4-dont-cause-algae-ammonia-does
Not all algae are created equal. this thread shows a bit of what the different stages of algae eat.


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## happi

manlyfan76 said:


> http://aquarium-fertilizer.com/nitrate-no3-and-phosphate-po4-dont-cause-algae-ammonia-does
> Not all algae are created equal. this thread shows a bit of what the different stages of algae eat.


ignored after it said NH4 was the cause of algae. this site is not anything new and this kind of stuff is old now.


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## talontsiawd

I may have to try this. My PH and KH are pretty low and I started getting GSA when I started dosing KNO3. I actually was over dosing it as my water used to be the exact opposite and only being about 10 miles away, I figured it would be about the same. I will test what I normally end up with with my current dosing with a nitrate test and then half that. Not sure if that is the best way to start but I will see how it goes, assuming I don't make a few other changes I had in mind.

It does make some sense to me without any scientific proof because this was the one type of algae I rarely got before. Now it's the main one I get and very easily. I wasn't getting it when I first setup because I wasn't dosing at all. Not saying it will work, worth a try for me though.


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## happi

talontsiawd said:


> I may have to try this. My PH and KH are pretty low and I started getting GSA when I started dosing KNO3. I actually was over dosing it as my water used to be the exact opposite and only being about 10 miles away, I figured it would be about the same. I will test what I normally end up with with my current dosing with a nitrate test and then half that. Not sure if that is the best way to start but I will see how it goes, assuming I don't make a few other changes I had in mind.
> 
> It does make some sense to me without any scientific proof because this was the one type of algae I rarely got before. Now it's the main one I get and very easily. I wasn't getting it when I first setup because I wasn't dosing at all. Not saying it will work, worth a try for me though.


hi there, i also suggest try other source of nitrogen beside KNO3 if you have low kh/ph. you might be getting high reading of NO3 in your tank, i figured plant wont use much NO3 due to the reasons i have explained above. you can also try low NO3 to begin with, if you don't want to try other nitrogen sources.


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## happi

JoraaÑ said:


> I been noticing the same thing as I stopped dosing kno3 in my tanks....why? Cause I'm out of it...Either this could be the reason or my Farlowella are taking care of the GDA. Will know for certain once I get Kno3.


my bet is that it was due to low NO3.


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## talontsiawd

happi said:


> hi there, i also suggest try other source of nitrogen beside KNO3 if you have low kh/ph. you might be getting high reading of NO3 in your tank, i figured plant wont use much NO3 due to the reasons i have explained above. you can also try low NO3 to begin with, if you don't want to try other nitrogen sources.


I am concerned that if I stop, I may crash my tank. If I lower it, I can hedge my bets at first. I really don't want to come up with a new dosing scheme yet as GDA is probably the least annoying algae to get. It's ugly but it's easy. I will see what happens and report back. I am going to have to figure out what PPM I was at to start though so it may take some time.


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## niko

ADA tanks have "low" Nitrate and "high" pH. Nitrate never more than 1 and pH=6.8 with P=0.01 is way "off" for most people. But the plants in ADA tanks don't mind the "bad" values.

I've heard that ADA tanks are prone to developing GDA. It'd be good to hear from someone that has run enough full blown ADA tanks.

What I've seen personally in non-ADA tanks (with NO3 in the water always being more than P because that is what we all believe in) is that when you manage to stabilize the tank to the point that no algae ever develops you always have do deal with GDA. But there are ways to adjust a few things to a point where GDA rarely needs cleaning (every 2 months for example).

Since ADA has a full blown system of running a planted tank as trouble free as possible it would be interesting to see what they do to deal with GDA. I believe that the answer is not a way to never get GDA. Probably it is about slowing down the growth to a level that allows the tank to appear clean for weeks. 

A big issue that really needs clarifying is what we put behind the terms we use in this hobby. "Low", "high", "excess". It all depends on what you think is good for the plants, but the plants often have a different opinion. That's because the trend is to look at parts of the system as a cure for this or a cure for that. In this thread we talk about "high" pH and "low" NO3 and GDA disappearing. But what is the overall picture? If you must clean GDA every week off the glass then something is off in the big picture. And don't hope that Anubias will stay clean in such a tank. 

The usual take on GDA is that they are "normal". Here we are presented with a claim that they can be taken care of which really sounds like something that ADA has been doing for more than 10 years now - low NO3 (in the water) and high pH. So is there an issue with GDA in an ADA tank? How fast do they develop? What are the compromises that one needs to accept to have both great plant growth and minimal GDA? To me all these questions are yet another signal that we need to understand more about how ADA tanks work as a system. Or we are doomed to discover the wheel over and over.

One way to do deal with GDA so they do not appear for months is to empty the tank and expose the GDA to air. For some reason when you fill up the tank the GDA "remembers" where the low water line was and does not grow above it. I find that strange but I've seen it at least 5 times. For a few months the algae grows up to an invisible line but not above. It's like a radiation zone that they fear. Frank from ADA talks about that in that long post showing and explaining how they run/maintain an ADA tank. I think he even has a picture of a fully drained tank explaining that that's how they expose the algae to air. Reading that may make you believe that ADA tanks do have GDA issues too. Once again - the question is how fast do they develop compared to the tanks in our living rooms.


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## happi

Niko thanks for your reply, am surprise that no one haven't shown much interest. i think either they don't know what GDA is or they got use to live with it.


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## Kathyy

I'm reading but haven't had GDA be a problem for ages and ages. I was reading APD at the time it hit in 2002 and between my algae crew loving the stuff and the current thinking to leave it be problem solved. Once my critters had their fill in a few weeks I wiped it off and it was gone. I may have had a bit at different times but it never got to be very bad.


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> far as i remember i have never experienced a GDA in hard water because i always had good co2 and always dosed plenty of nutrients, when you get GDA in Hard water it is due to CO2 issue. in soft water it is a different story.



I did, however, I noticed it is more common in soft low KH water.

I had it in Santa Barbara, Ca, with a GH of 24, KH of 11.

Did not fair well after about 3 weeks, it pretty much died off and never came back. 

I attributed this to "plant momentum", the point in time when plant growth really takes off and defines the system, rather than nutrients defining the system. In other words, plants control things.

I think anyone that has been in the hobby long enough has seen this and when when it happens, few algae can withstand it. So the critical focus goes back the plants.

The client tank is still very algae free, and curiously, now the plants have responded and I'm seeing that plant momentum that I have not seen in the past 2-3 months they had this issue.

I increased the light intensity, increased mechanical filtration/cleanliness, added a tad more CO2. I also upped the PO4 and K+(added K2SO4 since the tap has decent Mg and Ca already).

Plant response has been very good. This tank is using Monte Carlo which is ratty for a 2-3 week period while it arches. I cannot use Nerites or Shrimp, the copper pipes and attempted to remove copper to non lethal levels has failed, even the RCS culls have never made it. So plecos and SAE's are the only options and I hate SAE's. 

I noticed a marked decline in GSA on the glass at this point also. Less and less with each week. It might be due to the plants' increased biomass/momentum, but it might be to more larding on of the PO4/CO2/K2SO4.

Anyhow, there's no GDA and this was a serious issue the client had few options around.

For folks who have had GDA bad............they know what the heck..........it's a tough sucker to beat. With less light, you have much less growth and thus issues with it, but at higher light, as in 2-4X ADA lighting levels, well........it'll be pretty tough.

ADA tanks still have non limiting N and P for GDA or any other algae, plants have ample sources of N and P also in the sediment.

Many NBAT tanks also show those same parameters, but....many do large water changes the day before the shows/events/photographs to remove the mist from pearling and clean the tanks up, so the parameters match what the NBAT judges deem "good conditions". Most dose a lot more when they are not around. ADA relies on the sediment as a source, but the total N and P is essentially the same, only the location differs.

I add ADA AS and I use EI modified at fairly rich levels, I can add all the GDA laden plants and scrapings to my tanks, it does not take. I do have some plecos, gold nuggets(3 in my 120), a few royal farowellas in the 180, bushy nose in the 70 gal, only the 70 gallon has ample amounts.

The 70 gallon also has virtually no plant biomass to speak of.
Happi suggested to remove the bushy nose and see if the GDA returns, good idea, but I've not yet gotten around to it. I have increased NO3/PO4 and trace dosing though, no effect. ADA replies a lot of Amano shrimp, , some use nerites, but for glass algae, plecos seem like a simple solution.

Still, there are many cases where the GDA has been removed without such biocontrol measures. While a solution, it offers little in the way of more knowledge and what induces GDA to begin with, only then do we really have a decent management understanding with an alga species.

Happi, did you try using EM antibiotics?
This seems to cause a die back initially, but then it comes back later.

It may be an indirect relationship with the biofilms on glass that aids recruitment for GDA zoospores. But stopping biomfilm, or reducing long term is more likely to occur with good plant growth/momentum etc, than adding EM all the time.

Also, the client's tank that had GDA, had BBA, that will be addressed little by little, but suggest poor CO2. BGA on the gravel edge etc also. Low N, low CO2(or high pH). Plant growth has greatly improved and less algae of all types is growing/present. So the plecos seem to solve the immediate issue, but the long term issue was plant growth.


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## happi

*Tom*

i don't give much importance to substrate unless i have heavy rooted plants, i have seen plant wont grow unless you add Liquid fert, some plants might do ok but i would say 90% in my tank did not if i don't dose liquid fert. i have already repeated it somewhere in other threads, that i had GDA when i was dosing heavy on KNO3 and PO4, mainly the problem was KNO3 as i explained earlier. 

BBA happen in my tank many times, mostly due to change in Dosing, when i was dosing EI, switching back to my recipe i can see BBA occur, this might be due to the fact that plant started to grow now and changes the co2 levels. i can also see it fading away slowly after dosing for 2 weeks now. i haven't cleaned my glass for 2 weeks now, still no GDA yet. i know its hard for you to accept my theory about why KNO3 cause it, but one have to test it and see for them self. i also know for fact i have 4x39watts of TEK lights on 48g tank which is very high light and still no GDA or GW and i dose NH4 daily. i have reduced the NO3 less than 1ppm daily, my next step is to reduce it down to 0.7ppm and focus more on NH4 and Urea, now i have my hands on NH4NO3 so i can try that.

i think BN, waiting and cleaning, EM antibiotics they are only temporary solution, you have asked me if i tried EM antibiotics, i did try it while back and GDA was still growing. the only algae i get right now is Cyno, it was there in both cases low or high NO3, i have yet to find the reason why it occur. maybe its just me but i think aqua soil is prone to Cyno easier than any other substrate i ever tried, i cannot be 100% sure on this, so don't take me serious on this one. 

i know you have said how plant out compete the algae when they are growing fast, i have seen the opposite in my tank, when EI did not help the plant grow much, i started dosing the NH4 along with the EI, plant took off and GDA was still growing. one change simply got rid of it, cut of the EI and continue to dose the NH4, can you explain why this happened??? same light same co2, why did GDA decide to back off? 

you should also consider those people who have left their replies and some of them witness the same thing, they also use soft water. how come you did not see what the have said?? EI worked for me in hard water with high kh/ph and failed to work for me in low KH/PH, not saying it did not grow anything at all, but it was super slow and algae was the main issue 24/7. i remember when i was dosing pmdd, there was no sign of algae and plants were growing good enough.


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## dzega

niko said:


> One way to do deal with GDA so they do not appear for months is to empty the tank and expose the GDA to air. For some reason when you fill up the tank the GDA "remembers" where the low water line was and does not grow above it.


this is true. it happens even if i expose tank to air for a minute or so. but it is important not to clean the tank at a time, otherwise algae gets into water and reattaches to glass after water fillup

edit: i also wonder does it counts one have algae problem if have to clean glass once a month(or once/2month). i mean do i have to aim for keeping crystalclear tank without cleaning it at all or manual cleaning every month or every other month is common?


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## HD Blazingwolf

dzega said:


> this is true. it happens even if i expose tank to air for a minute or so. but it is important not to clean the tank at a time, otherwise algae gets into water and reattaches to glass after water fillup
> 
> edit: i also wonder does it counts one have algae problem if have to clean glass once a month(or once/2month). i mean do i have to aim for keeping crystalclear tank without cleaning it at all or manual cleaning every month or every other month is common?


if u clean ur glass once per month u've done pretty good
some people have to do it every 3 days.
oliver knott says he does it about every other day to "prevent" glass algaes. that does not necessarily prevent them, but more keep them from being apparent at first glance


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## happi

once a month sound good, if you are cleaning it every other day like Oliver knott then you are doing something wrong.


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## happi

after finishing my GDA test, i have started the new Test on NH4, i never dosed NH4 from Ammonium Nitrate, before i was only using Urea. i have found some interesting results, i will post them soon. so far NH4 is Prone to GDA as well, i will explain why NH4 can cause Algae and why it does not cause algae, one extra small change in the solution makes it so complex that NH4 cannot be used by Algae, only plant can use it.


----------



## plantbrain

HD Blazingwolf said:


> if u clean ur glass once per month u've done pretty good
> some people have to do it every 3 days.
> oliver knott says he does it about every other day to "prevent" glass algaes. that does not necessarily prevent them, but more keep them from being apparent at first glance


ADA cleans their tanks very often as well. I can for awhile, but........I agree, if you have to do it that frequently, not once a month or so, you are likely doing something wrong or need to whip the tank up for a show/pic contest etc. 

NH4 may or may not be the cause for GDA in your tank Happi, many folks have suggested many solutions, not one of them has helped based on my experience for* all cases.*

The client's tank has a large fish load, and I did not dose much KNO3, I ran it pretty lean, we did not add anything after switching to ADA AS, which has no NO3, only NH4. I do not think the NH4 vs the NO3 is the issue. You have some NO3 no matter what if you add any NH4. Some will be there. 

I know a few folks that have really leaned the KNO3 dosing with no impact on GDA, so the NH4.....it's not a question of me accepting what you are saying, isolated cases and correlation do not prove much. When other folks can do it and not have GDA, then we expand and see who cannot cure it with such methods. The observations are not in your favor. It has nothing to do with my accepting or believing anything. 

they still feed their fish, so some NH4 was present, maybe aq critical ppm of NH4 and virtually no NO3 is required, but you have not shown or stated that to be the case, I'm very skeptical that is the real underlying issue.

You can happened upon a cure for yourself that may or may not be the case.
I can say the same about leaving it be for 3-4 weeks, then wiping it clean. This did in fact work for many folks, but............not for everyone.
The same may be true for your hypothesis.

Switch back and dose KNO3 and see.
Then repeat.


----------



## plantbrain

happi said:


> *Tom*
> 
> i don't give much importance to substrate unless i have heavy rooted plants, i have seen plant wont grow unless you add Liquid fert, some plants might do ok but i would say 90% in my tank did not if i don't dose liquid fert. i have already repeated it somewhere in other threads, that i had GDA when i was dosing heavy on KNO3 and PO4, mainly the problem was KNO3 as i explained earlier.
> 
> BBA happen in my tank many times, mostly due to change in Dosing, when i was dosing EI, switching back to my recipe i can see BBA occur, this might be due to the fact that plant started to grow now and changes the co2 levels. i can also see it fading away slowly after dosing for 2 weeks now. i haven't cleaned my glass for 2 weeks now, still no GDA yet. i know its hard for you to accept my theory about why KNO3 cause it, but one have to test it and see for them self. i also know for fact i have 4x39watts of TEK lights on 48g tank which is very high light and still no GDA or GW and i dose NH4 daily. i have reduced the NO3 less than 1ppm daily, my next step is to reduce it down to 0.7ppm and focus more on NH4 and Urea, now i have my hands on NH4NO3 so i can try that.
> 
> i think BN, waiting and cleaning, EM antibiotics they are only temporary solution, you have asked me if i tried EM antibiotics, i did try it while back and GDA was still growing. the only algae i get right now is Cyno, it was there in both cases low or high NO3, i have yet to find the reason why it occur. maybe its just me but i think aqua soil is prone to Cyno easier than any other substrate i ever tried, i cannot be 100% sure on this, so don't take me serious on this one.
> 
> i know you have said how plant out compete the algae when they are growing fast, i have seen the opposite in my tank, when EI did not help the plant grow much, i started dosing the NH4 along with the EI, plant took off and GDA was still growing. one change simply got rid of it, cut of the EI and continue to dose the NH4, can you explain why this happened??? same light same co2, why did GDA decide to back off?
> 
> you should also consider those people who have left their replies and some of them witness the same thing, they also use soft water. how come you did not see what the have said?? EI worked for me in hard water with high kh/ph and failed to work for me in low KH/PH, not saying it did not grow anything at all, but it was super slow and algae was the main issue 24/7. i remember when i was dosing pmdd, there was no sign of algae and plants were growing good enough.


BBA sounds more like CO2 issues than anything to do with nutrient dosing.

You also state that the plants did not grow much using EI, anyone worth their pile of beans knows EI will grow plants at max rates. Unless you use lower/less light, or.........you use less CO2/have CO2 issues.......that's the only way to have an issue with plant growth. I have a lot of the touchier hard to grow species, I seem to sell an awful lot of them somehow. 
There's no way to escape Liebig's law. More ferts/more CO2/more light= more weeds.

I had the same experience with EM, I farmed the test out to some folks who had the GDA, it was a temporary love fest like your own experience. Sewingalot was certain she was right and claimed I was wrong. Well......

Been here and done this many, many times. I am glad you have no fear of NH4 dosing, a lot folks seem to when dosing to the water column. Even if you get GW, so what? A UV and it's gone. NH4 is toxic to fish and shrimp, but planted tanks mitigate this a good deal.

If you limit N, even if you dose a mix of NH4 and NO3 at a low low level, the plants will slow their growth and a CO2 limitation will now become a slight N limitation. This need not be cessation of growth, just reduced growth. Moderate or mild reduction, will lead to large gains with CO2 demand in plants. 

PO4 limitation should also product a similar range if you care to try it. Plants tend to be more tolerant of PO4 limitation than N though. But there's no reason why N limitation cannot/does not work if you dose carefully.
Either way, it gets back to good old Liebig. 

So there, I explained it, and I explained this about 15 years ago using the same logic with PO4 Why does my tank not have it? Why do other folks' have it? I do not know, but I know what I can falsify.

Not much else.


----------



## happi

plantbrain said:


> ADA cleans their tanks very often as well. I can for awhile, but........I agree, if you have to do it that frequently, not once a month or so, you are likely doing something wrong or need to whip the tank up for a show/pic contest etc.
> 
> NH4 may or may not be the cause for GDA in your tank Happi, many folks have suggested many solutions, not one of them has helped based on my experience for* all cases.*
> 
> The client's tank has a large fish load, and I did not dose much KNO3, I ran it pretty lean, we did not add anything after switching to ADA AS, which has no NO3, only NH4. I do not think the NH4 vs the NO3 is the issue. You have some NO3 no matter what if you add any NH4. Some will be there.
> 
> I know a few folks that have really leaned the KNO3 dosing with no impact on GDA, so the NH4.....it's not a question of me accepting what you are saying, isolated cases and correlation do not prove much. When other folks can do it and not have GDA, then we expand and see who cannot cure it with such methods. The observations are not in your favor. It has nothing to do with my accepting or believing anything.
> 
> they still feed their fish, so some NH4 was present, maybe aq critical ppm of NH4 and virtually no NO3 is required, but you have not shown or stated that to be the case, I'm very skeptical that is the real underlying issue.
> 
> You can happened upon a cure for yourself that may or may not be the case.
> I can say the same about leaving it be for 3-4 weeks, then wiping it clean. This did in fact work for many folks, but............not for everyone.
> The same may be true for your hypothesis.
> 
> Switch back and dose KNO3 and see.
> Then repeat.


so you want me to repeat the same mistake again which i have been repeating again over again with no success, if you really want me to try the EI again i will do it, but i know the outcome when using 0kh and soft water. i don't think you understood me correctly, *i have never said high NO3 was the cause of GDA, i have said it was the cause of GDA when you lack Bacteria and have 0 kh low PH water. *


----------



## happi

plantbrain said:


> BBA sounds more like CO2 issues than anything to do with nutrient dosing.
> 
> You also state that the plants did not grow much using EI, anyone worth their pile of beans knows EI will grow plants at max rates. Unless you use lower/less light, or.........you use less CO2/have CO2 issues.......that's the only way to have an issue with plant growth. I have a lot of the touchier hard to grow species, I seem to sell an awful lot of them somehow.
> There's no way to escape Liebig's law. More ferts/more CO2/more light= more weeds.
> 
> I had the same experience with EM, I farmed the test out to some folks who had the GDA, it was a temporary love fest like your own experience. Sewingalot was certain she was right and claimed I was wrong. Well......
> 
> Been here and done this many, many times. I am glad you have no fear of NH4 dosing, a lot folks seem to when dosing to the water column. Even if you get GW, so what? A UV and it's gone. NH4 is toxic to fish and shrimp, but planted tanks mitigate this a good deal.
> 
> If you limit N, even if you dose a mix of NH4 and NO3 at a low low level, the plants will slow their growth and a CO2 limitation will now become a slight N limitation. This need not be cessation of growth, just reduced growth. Moderate or mild reduction, will lead to large gains with CO2 demand in plants.
> 
> PO4 limitation should also product a similar range if you care to try it. Plants tend to be more tolerant of PO4 limitation than N though. But there's no reason why N limitation cannot/does not work if you dose carefully.
> Either way, it gets back to good old Liebig.
> 
> So there, I explained it, and I explained this about 15 years ago using the same logic with PO4 Why does my tank not have it? Why do other folks' have it? I do not know, but I know what I can falsify.
> 
> Not much else.


same old stuff again, increase the co2 and keep on increasing it, kill some fish and see how the plats are dosing, have done both and no good results, however doing the same with higher PH/Kh did help the plant grew better, same did not happen under very soft water. 

you cannot tell me that my co2 are low, my lights or ferts are low, i overdosed both and found small plant growth and big algae growth, algae was growing 100X more than the plants, do you want me to direct you to my video again where everything was kept the same and only change was made switched KNO3 to Urea. plants grew 100 times better and healthier. 

people dont know how to use NH4, everywhere i have read your post you have mentioned how you also got green water and it caused algae, it seems like you have no idea either how to use NH4. you defend EI and shows picture of tank with high nutrients and no algae and i can show you the same using NH4 and no algae, either both of us are wrong or correct, in both cases algae can exist, so who is right, me or you. i think we both are wrong, the only way to find the truth is to see what people experience in their tank, why do we have algae threads everyday on the forum? most people use Dry EI dosing and there should be less threads on algae everyday, why is it only increasing instead of decreasing. how come i never seen any algae thread on ADA product, even sea chem product. 

you can repeat the same thing over and over again about co2, ferts being low, but i am already convinced after seeing the results, am not new to this hobby and i think i know what am doing.


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## JoraaÑ

Good Read but I dont agree with this statement..



happi said:


> same old stuff again, increase the co2 and keep on increasing it, kill some fish


Lot of folks claimed to kill fish,shrimps, snails once they pump/tweak more co2...YES they did/do....however... I dont know if this been mentioned somewhere or not...higher co2 level in tank, lower o2 level..Right?? 

This is the problem..why not increase O2 level as well to compete with co2 ??? 

_Raise _your outflow, spraybar a bit toward the surface, problem solved~~And dont worry co2 wont escape from your tank that fast as we think it does. 

I pump a lot of co2 (20-25 BPS, if you can count) in my tanks...till date no death cause of co2..and there is no 7 up/alka seltzer looks.


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## happi

JoraaÑ said:


> Good Read but I dont agree with this statement..
> 
> 
> 
> Lot of folks claimed to kill fish,shrimps, snails once they pump/tweak more co2...YES they did/do....however... I dont know if this been mentioned somewhere or not...higher co2 level in tank, lower o2 level..Right??
> 
> This is the problem..why not increase O2 level as well to compete with co2 ???
> 
> _Raise _your outflow, spraybar a bit toward the surface, problem solved~~And dont worry co2 wont escape from your tank that fast as we think it does.
> 
> I pump a lot of co2 (20-25 BPS, if you can count) in my tanks...till date no death cause of co2..and there is no 7 up/alka seltzer looks.


joraan this was a existing problem when i first started the planted tank, but now all my tanks have power head pointing upward to create a strong surface water movement, i also have high Co2 and this is set to point where fish can handle it, but some fish are more sensitive than others. 

Tom was trying to apply it to plant growth, so i was trying to answer that, i am fully aware of how to fix the issue the fish will have, but he is talking about plants and i have already mentioned that increasing the co2 actually make things worse in 0 KH water, i don't think i need to explain it any further, if you think bacteria plays an important role in up taking the NO3 then you will understand me. More co2 increase the growth of GDA while plants weren't growing much while dosing EI under very acidic water, i hope this make since.


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## HD Blazingwolf

my water is about 5.3 with co2 on.. rcs, amano, otos, clown pleco, rainbowfish, striata loaches, angelfish all seem to survive just fine. my ph drop is from 6.8 to 5.3 with co2 on
plant growth diminishes by about 5x and green dust algae appears in my tank if my co2 is just slightly off. gda generally makes itself well known after about three days of of co2 being sub par
its not always the answer, so don' take it as suc. more just an observation i have for my tank


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## happi

HD Blazingwolf said:


> my water is about 5.3 with co2 on.. rcs, amano, otos, clown pleco, rainbowfish, striata loaches, angelfish all seem to survive just fine. my ph drop is from 6.8 to 5.3 with co2 on
> plant growth diminishes by about 5x and green dust algae appears in my tank if my co2 is just slightly off. gda generally makes itself well known after about three days of of co2 being sub par
> its not always the answer, so don' take it as suc. more just an observation i have for my tank


i never said fish or shrimps will have problem with low PH, i have only said when dosing EI in acidic water, uptake of no3 wasn't great and adding more CO2 only killed fish and done nothing to algae or plants. since EI believe in dosing tons of nutrients and adding tons of co2, this isn't always a solution for everyone. 

Based on my research, algae can grow fastest while using Urea or NH4, this doesn't mean algae doesn't use NO3, algae use no3 at slower rate but you also get slow plant growth compare to NH4 and Urea. so in the end they can all cause algae, but no plant growth = Algae. Urea and NH4 can be consumed faster than NO3 and now you cannot disagree with me on this, if plant grow fast then algae have no chance, right? i have seen this written by everyone including Tom Barr, if plant doesn't grow then we get Algae, now you cannot argue with this theory.


----------



## happi

happi said:


> after finishing my GDA test, i have started the new Test on NH4, i never dosed NH4 from Ammonium Nitrate, before i was only using Urea. i have found some interesting results, i will post them soon. so far NH4 is Prone to GDA as well, i will explain why NH4 can cause Algae and why it does not cause algae, one extra small change in the solution makes it so complex that NH4 cannot be used by Algae, only plant can use it.



sense all i got was negative posts toward my research, i will stop the test here, plus there was no interest from anyone, all i got from the posts was increase co2, start dosing EI again, coming to conclusion without even testing my theory. if anyone is interested in this topic they can PM me.


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## HD Blazingwolf

happi said:


> i never said fish or shrimps will have problem with low PH, i have only said when dosing EI in acidic water, uptake of no3 wasn't great and adding more CO2 only killed fish and done nothing to algae or plants. since EI believe in dosing tons of nutrients and adding tons of co2, this isn't always a solution for everyone.
> 
> Based on my research, algae can grow fastest while using Urea or NH4, this doesn't mean algae doesn't use NO3, algae use no3 at slower rate but you also get slow plant growth compare to NH4 and Urea. so in the end they can all cause algae, but no plant growth = Algae. Urea and NH4 can be consumed faster than NO3 and now you cannot disagree with me on this, if plant grow fast then algae have no chance, right? i have seen this written by everyone including Tom Barr, if plant doesn't grow then we get Algae, now you cannot argue with this theory.


 

I don't agree with low nutrient uptake of no3 in acidic water.. my plants seem to uptake it fine.. this could be specific to certain plants though, i do have a lot of fast growers..
i was also trying to reference ph as a measuemeant of co2 levels which i failed to express. my carbon levels are kept pretty darn high


I Do agree plants uptake nh4 maybe not faster but easier, and with less enery usage than nitrates. I think that would be the best way to say it. they will only uptake a nitrogen source as fast as it is needed. but the energy required to utlilize it is far less thus requiring less of other nutrients such as po4, and carbon


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## RainSong

I am following this thread with a lot of interest. I have low GH/KH water, use EI, and am currently suffering GDA.

As an alternative to changing the dosing, would it make sense to boost the GH/KH (GH booster, baking soda)?


----------



## happi

RainSong said:


> I am following this thread with a lot of interest. I have low GH/KH water, use EI, and am currently suffering GDA.
> 
> As an alternative to changing the dosing, would it make sense to boost the GH/KH (GH booster, baking soda)?


i was not going to go much further but you have shown some interest, increasing the KH will sure make the things better, i suggest increasing it by 1-2. there is a reason ADA use very soft water and add potassium carbonate everyday.


----------



## JL15219

RainSong said:


> I am following this thread with a lot of interest. I have low GH/KH water, use EI, and am currently suffering GDA.
> 
> As an alternative to changing the dosing, would it make sense to boost the GH/KH (GH booster, baking soda)?


+1 but I have hard water with high GH/KH.....dont know what to do.


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## happi

JL15219 said:


> +1 but I have hard water with high GH/KH.....dont know what to do.


 in case of hard water, improve the CO2.


----------



## JL15219

happi said:


> in case of hard water, improve the CO2.


Ahh okay then will try to crank up the co2 a little bit then.


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## RainSong

happi said:


> i was not going to go much further but you have shown some interest, increasing the KH will sure make the things better, i suggest increasing it by 1-2. there is a reason ADA use very soft water and add potassium carbonate everyday.


That seems to have worked for me! I bumped up the GH (using booster) and KH (using baking soda) and cleaned the glass during the wc. I now have my first full week without GDA!

Thanks!


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> in case of hard water, improve the CO2.


Hehe, now you sound like me.


I had GDA with both soft tap, and Hard KH's. 11 and then 17 degrees.

KH here in Sacramento is a mere 18-20 ppm, pretty soft, soft as anyone ADA or other tanks. I do not add CO3's. It'll go up to about 35-39 ppm during some parts of the fall, otherwise, it's VERY soft. 

I dose 30 ppm a week of NO3 as KNO3, 10 ppm or so of the PO4, lots of traces and about 1 table spoon per 60 Gal of tank of GH booster, but my GH is about 2 degrees in the tap. 

Without a control for a test, eg a tank that is algae free, you cannot test dosing or nutrients independent of other factors for algae causes/cures really. If you are convinced of something, you then need to go back and induce the GDA and then apply the treatments you think will best logically support your hypothesis.

I cannot with GDA, because I have trouble inducing it. I've managed a few times, but.........So all I can really do is falsify. This is much more helpful than many assume(falsification).

If you can grow and induce GDA easily, and consistently, then you can master the growth of the alga. Then you can do test upon it. This is the key to understanding algae.

Same with plants, if you can grow them really well, then you can understand their growth really well. If you cannot grow one or either, well........hard to say. No way around this issue. 

GDA is present in hard and soft KH waters. I think there is some truth to it being more common and nagging issue in low KH tap waters, but clearly, my tanks fall into the very soft grouping and I have no issues with it.

But.......this might help a few folks by adding more KH if they are in the low KH range. ADA adds KH, but not much.


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## happi

i apologize about one thing which no one knew or was confused about, i was also confuse about this, i came to find out bacteria has nothing to do with plant taking up Nitrate. someone told me that it does and i used this info till now, but this is not the truth. none of the members here pointed it out, but at the APC they pointed it out.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/88351-i-think-i-found-cure-gda.html

i have been doing more testing on GDA and i will able to bring it back again, but this time even with low NO3 levels, i will explain why it happen in my next post, wait for the update. now dont think NO3 wasn't the reason for the GDA, it still is.


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## jpappy789

My only experience with GDA was in completely different conditions than you...high pH/KH and low NO3.


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## happi

as i promised in my earlier post, i will only post the results that occur during the experiments and i will not defend anything in any ferts favor. the results are the following during each test, each test were done for longer than one week and some results were shown withing 1-2 days, results were:

Test 1:
when NH4 was dosed through Ammonium nitrate (0.2ppm of NH4 per day) and 0.8ppm of NO3, GDA grew fast and plant also grew ok at the same time.

Test 2:
Ammonium nitrate, Urea combined together, 0.2ppm NH4, 0.8 NO3, 0.5ppm Urea. GDA growth still there but less than Test 1.

Test 3: 
Urea 0.7 ppm, 1 ppm No3 from Cano3/Mgno3, GDA start to go away (this recipe is used in my Ultimate fert)

Test 4: 
KNO3 (EI dosing), this test was done more than months and GDA was the worse i ever seen

*in all test PO4 was Kept the same around not more than 3ppm per week*

i have also noticed Urea dosing works better than dosing NH4 from other sources. please do not leave any comment on this post yet, i still have to provide more info on this. this was just to show you how gda reacted under certain condtions. i will write more about it later on today.


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## happi

jpappy789 said:


> My only experience with GDA was in completely different conditions than you...high pH/KH and low NO3.



what was the PO4 reading?? how was the co2?


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## jpappy789

happi said:


> what was the PO4 reading?? how was the co2?


Low and nothing other than what's normally dissolved. I probably should haveve mentioned this was an unplanted cichlid (Tanganyikan) tank. I wasn't adding anything other than fish food to a lightly stocked tank. 

That's the thing...unplanted tanks can get GDA too. Fiddling with nutrients and CO2 doesn't exactly make sense under those conditions. 

Your testing is neat, but not exactly proof that it works across all tanks.


----------



## happi

jpappy789 said:


> Low and nothing other than what's normally dissolved. I probably should haveve mentioned this was an unplanted cichlid (Tanganyikan) tank. I wasn't adding anything other than fish food to a lightly stocked tank.
> 
> That's the thing...unplanted tanks can get GDA too. Fiddling with nutrients and CO2 doesn't exactly make sense under those conditions.
> 
> Your testing is neat, but not exactly proof that it works across all tanks.


i never claimed that it should work for all tanks, i only claimed why it happen in my tank, if someone else try the same method and fix the issue then we know it is also working for them. 

you cannot use this method to judge GDA in your tank, you your self said its not a planted tank, we are talking about planted tank here. i have already talked about it why GDA can happen in low or high lights, the only difference is that GDA will grow slow in low light, but it will grow faster than the plants for sure even in low light. 

in your case you might have extra light to boost some of the algae from even small amount of nutrients, since you lack plants. i highly doubt that your tank is low on NO3, i would test it with better test kit.


----------



## happi

lets start with this first:

http://translate.google.com/transla...ia/Chapters/Tech/liqfert-n_p.html#no3&act=url


The amide nitrogen is NH2.
All the problems associated with the introduction of an easily digestible for plants, but stimulating algal growth of the ammonium form of nitrogen NH4 + can easily be avoided by making an even better source of nitrogen for plants - amide nitrogen which is half of the nitrogen source in Seachem Flourish Nitrogen ™ . The amide nitrogen - are compounds in which the nitrogen bound in the form NH2. This will give aquatic plants easily digestible source of nitrogen like NH4 +, but is not available to power the algae:
"... This means that the ammonium nitrogen is not present as free ammonia or ammonium as well as part of a more complex molecule, which can be expanded to plant ammonia and recycling. Algae In theory it would also absorb, but our research and beta testing have shown that this does not occur (ie, very low and is not algae, many have documented that algae are down). " (Gregory Morin, Ph.D. Seachem Laboratories, Inc., Research Director - fins.actwin.com )


now lets take a look at algae:

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/8/1423.full.pdf


keep in mind NH4 and Urea doesn't stay in NH4 form for very long in the water, eventually it is converted to NO3 if plant doesn't use it, this is the only good reason to have good colony of bacteria, if you have low KH/Ph i suggest adding it in small amount. 

ok now lets start by looking at the graphs, if you look at it carefully you will see how Urea and NH4 can increase the Algae growth at much faster rate compare to NO3, but keep in mind, it shows algae growth increase as the days pass by, you wont see any urea or NH4 in your tank for more than couple of hours after adding it, any excess urea/NH4 will be converted to Nitrate within the same day or maybe next day, only NO3 levels can go up. now look at the graphs and you be the judge.

NH4 act as quick boost to plants and Algae and should be used in very small amount. start with 0.1ppm of NH4, Urea on the other hand works little different than the NH4, it break down into the plants in such a way that algae cannot get much chance to use it, something to do with algae lacking enzymes. Urea is better and can be used in higher dose than NH4, you can start with 0.5ppm of Urea if you want to test it. 

When using Urea, you must be careful not to overdose too much when using high lights, you will start to see some Blue green and slime algae on the leafs, this is a clear sign of too much light and excess Urea, if this happen dose less.


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## happi

did anyone bother to look at the links i have posted??


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## happi

i thought i bump my thread and see if anyone is still interested.


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## dzega

Setting up new tank and selected plants have a bit of GDA on older leafs. Should I be afraid? Should I dip them in h2o2 or excel or just stop worrying?


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## Zorfox

I missed this thread entirely since I was inactive here for a few months. I find your results very interesting Happi. I did indeed read both articles you posted. The first being incredibly difficult to understand as a result of the translation. However, I think I manged to grasp the majority of content. 

I do question the usage of the redfield ratio. The original ratio was C:N = 106:16:1. There is a carbon element there. The author seemed to have eliminated this from his comparisons. Following that same method, he stated most nutrient delivery methods used a low to high redfield ratio. Basically, having high N opposed to P i.e. Tropica N = 28.5:1 ratio. This ratio would be appropriate for saltwater phytoplankton since nitrogen is the growth limiting factor. However, the opposite seems true in freshwater systems. [reference, 1] [reference, 2] I would expect the ratio similar to the EI method to be more appropriate based on this information. It was unclear to me in the article why the author claims algae growth utilizing the EI ratios. In fact, he states that PO4 > 4mg/l stimulates algae. I’ve never noticed that problem with levels over 4ppm.

The reference that substrates with high CEC will buffer the NH4+ seems valid. Yet he also warns that for “conventional gravel” KNO3 would be preferred. In addition, PH determines ammonia/ammonium shift H3O+ *+* NH3 *<=>* H2O *+* NH4+ . So at low PH the reaction shifts right and high PH it shifts left. This would suggest the use of organic nitrogen in a high PH environment could be detrimental. This would lead me to believe that choosing a N source would be environment dependent. 

The second article was surprising. I would have expected organic nitrogen forms to induce more algae growth. This was quite surprising!

In the tests you performed above, what was the PH of the water? What type of substrate? Did you inject CO2? Clearly those are results. Based on your experience, it seems you can induce GDA quite predictably. Maybe Tom could use your methods to induce GDA and follow suit by searching for the cause. Being able to induce it, eliminate it and repeat is the only way to identify the cause and cure. I would be curious to see this experiment done with inert gravel and high PH.

Please don’t misinterpret my post as being argumentative, it’s not. I found the information you have listed very interesting. I've certainly learned a few things by reading your thread and references.


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## happi

hi *Zorfox*

the PH of the water in my tank is around 6.0 and it can go around or below 5 with co2. i use 100% RO water and KH is 0, GH around 2, substrate is ADA aqua soil. i have repeated couple of my tests and i am very confident in my finding, i have done more research and done some testing on some other algae as well, its too early to post about it right now.


far as po4 causing algae, i have not done much research on it, i never tried overdosing it to see what will happen, but when i was dosing my Ultimate fert i was dosing 1ppm of po4 3x week, if we talk about ratio, the ratio of my recipe would be around N:1, P:0.16, K:1.5 per day. no algae issue here, but N source mostly came from Urea.


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## FlyingHellFish

Good link, that site has a wealth of information. Thanks happi for actually doing some experiments. I'm not going to pretend I understand the whole concept here so could you do a quick review?

This is a subtopic I usually skip over, all the threads are the same with "try this" or "do that", but I like the way you approached this. I think more people will take interest if you had these results in layman's term. 
========

So basically, low PH tanks with GDA is caused by No3, and if you substituted other forms of nitrogen (urea) you can reduce GDA? So Phosphate isn't the issue? I thought the best ratio was Redfield's 1:6 or 1:5, I believe Seachem uses this ratio in their product line. 

Explain to me like I'm 5 ....


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## Zorfox

Thanks Happi. Any theories why GDA is inhibited with less KNO3 and higher NH4? I understand the PH induced cation exchange for the NH4 but KNO3? Chemically speaking, it shouldn't make a difference correct? Maybe it has something to do with the algaes nitrogen cycle. I know with plants the PH can alter the way various forms of nitrogen sources are utilized in the nitrogen cycle.

It would be interesting to see if an inert substrate had the same results.


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## happi

Zorfox said:


> Thanks Happi. Any theories why GDA is inhibited with less KNO3 and higher NH4? I understand the PH induced cation exchange for the NH4 but KNO3? Chemically speaking, it shouldn't make a difference correct? Maybe it has something to do with the algaes nitrogen cycle. I know with plants the PH can alter the way various forms of nitrogen sources are utilized in the nitrogen cycle.
> 
> It would be interesting to see if an inert substrate had the same results.


 
you have to read the links carefully in post #*50*, this will answer your questions, I did talk about the main information I could gather from those links in that post.

please take a look at post #*46* 

Test 1:
when NH4 was dosed through Ammonium nitrate (0.2ppm of NH4 per day) and 0.8ppm of NO3, GDA grew fast and plant also grew ok at the same time.* in this case GDA was growing very fast and so was the plants, keep in mind this dosing was not in Amide form.*


Test 2:
Ammonium nitrate, Urea combined together, 0.2ppm NH4, 0.8 NO3, 0.5ppm Urea. GDA growth still there but less than Test 1. 
*after making it into Amide form the GDA wasn't that bad, but it was still growing slowly, I think I did not make the amide form correctly, because according to seachem Urea suppose to be 50% of the nitrogen source, looks like I added 0.2ppm of NH4, it should have been 0.1ppm instead. that slight difference was still a cause of GDA, but again the GDA wasn't bad as before. 

*Test 3: 
Urea 0.7 ppm, 1 ppm No3 from Cano3/Mgno3, GDA start to go away (this recipe is used in my Ultimate fert) *according to my research Algae cannot use Urea, one of those links confirms it, am not sure of this is 100% true, but dosing NH4 from urea is different than dosing NH4 from NH4no3 or any other source and I was dosing 0.7ppm of NH4 from urea. according to seachem this has to be true that algae cannot use their Nitrogen due to this complex form of nitrogen. even though my recipe is mainly Urea and 1ppm of NO3, I had similar results as promised by seachem nitrogen.
*
Test 4: 
KNO3 (EI dosing), this test was done more than months and GDA was the worse i ever seen. *I repeated this test again 3 days ago and I can see the glass starts to cover up with GDA again, in my tank things happen very fast due to very high light. so I don't have to wait for weeks to see the outcome. *


*soft and hard water plays an very important role when we dose any fertilizer, fertilizer that contain NH4/Urea cannot be used successfully in hard water, same apply for Iron as well. am not saying GDA is caused directly by KNO3, I have said it is caused when you have excess of it. *

*Urea is overall better source and plants love it, NH4 plants love this too but when used alone it grows algae faster than the plants, KNO3 plants will grow but not all of them grow equally, we tend to think we are not doing enough and keep on dosing more, in results plants which were dosing fine will do fine while the others still not doing anything good, this is when we add excess NO3.

*


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## Zorfox

I did miss the obvious! I thought you were interchangeably using the term NH4 and urea...you WERE NOT! It all makes sense now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I was under the impression that urea breaks down into NH4 rather rapidly in the water column. If that's true, wouldn't urea lead to algae outbreaks in higher PH? I realize you are speaking about low PH here. Just a question.


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## happi

FlyingHellFish said:


> Good link, that site has a wealth of information. Thanks happi for actually doing some experiments. I'm not going to pretend I understand the whole concept here so could you do a quick review?
> 
> This is a subtopic I usually skip over, all the threads are the same with "try this" or "do that", but I like the way you approached this. I think more people will take interest if you had these results in layman's term.
> ========
> 
> So basically, low PH tanks with GDA is caused by No3, and if you substituted other forms of nitrogen (urea) you can reduce GDA? So Phosphate isn't the issue? I thought the best ratio was Redfield's 1:6 or 1:5, I believe Seachem uses this ratio in their product line.
> 
> Explain to me like I'm 5 ....


i think i have answered it in post #58, am not saying GDA is caused directly by NO3 in soft water, it certainly does when NO3 levels goes up, adding more po4 makes things worse in this case. i have always kept po4 around less than 3 ppm, aqua soil help to absorb it quickly as well. IME N 1 and P 0.1 ratio should work best. PO4 isn't a big issue when you are using aqua soil, but i would try to keep it 10 times lower than nitrogen, when i had it higher than Nitrogen i started to see BBA, i will discus on BBA in my next thread.

Urea works better than NO3 when combined with NO3, plant use urea quite rapidly and you can refer to my Ultimate fert and see the results for your self. i had kept all the parameter the same, only added Urea to my dosing, which resulted in rapid plant growth and there was no sign of algae.


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## happi

dzega said:


> Setting up new tank and selected plants have a bit of GDA on older leafs. Should I be afraid? Should I dip them in h2o2 or excel or just stop worrying?



start dosing excel and it should clean it up, start with double dose.


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## happi

i thought i would bump this thread for those who are afraid of PO4 and the ratio

*Quote from me:*

*far as po4 causing algae, i have not done much research on it, i never tried overdosing it to see what will happen, but when i was dosing my Ultimate fert i was dosing 1ppm of po4 3x week, if we talk about ratio, the ratio of my recipe would be around N:1, P:0.16, K:1.5 per day. no algae issue here, but N source mostly came from Urea. *

the ratio here is 6:1 similar to seachem, i thought i would share it because we had some questions related to PO4 in the recent threads. IME this same ratio could become a problem when dosing in higher amounts, i dose enough so plants could use them quickly.


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## plantbrain

jpappy789 said:


> Low and nothing other than what's normally dissolved. I probably should haveve mentioned this was an unplanted cichlid (Tanganyikan) tank. I wasn't adding anything other than fish food to a lightly stocked tank.
> 
> That's the thing...unplanted tanks can get GDA too. Fiddling with nutrients and CO2 doesn't exactly make sense under those conditions.
> 
> Your testing is neat, but not exactly proof that it works across all tanks.


I've seen folks fiddle for years searching, meanwhile, I've seen other folks dose the ferts and focus on plant growth, the latter seemed to have advanced much faster and achieve their horticultural goals much faster.

*I do not have any GDA even though I have client's who had it and other folks locally whom I worked with to get rid of it for them. I dose differently that you and the fert mix you come up with and can modify over a pretty massive range without getting GDA or other algae.

We have a huge range of ferts that grow plants well without algae. 
We also have a huge range of ferts that grow algae well also.

Everyone knows this to be observed facts. If the ratio or the dosing of some special mix is some cure, then why do my own tanks lack the issues? I've exposed the GDA repeatedly many times. Cannot get it to grow.
This falsifies the claim that is ferts independent of other possible causes(of which there are many).

This suggest that it's something other than the fert ratios of ppm's etc.
Liebig's law of limitation applies if you get low enough, but then you have dependence in your test methods, you cannot say much due to errors in the methods.

I do not try and prove cause, I try and falsify the hypotheses one by one.
There is a big difference in that method versus trying to find cause via correlation alone. There may also be multiple causes, BGA for example is one.

As far as NO3 vs NH4, plants will use either, I found little difference using both for about 2 years. I got tired of that, because, I like fish in my tanks...and I like to feed them well, which means ample NH4. I used NH4Cl and (NH4)2 SO4, but urea poses little issue and is cheaper and more widely available for many. 

Algae most certainly can use urea FYI.
This clearly states that the algae did best on urea in fact:

http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/8/1423.full.pdf

Happi, you said you researched this, and yet this was the 1st search I pulled up when using google using "Urea as a source of N for algae". Paper was cited 95 times. Maybe they are wrong and you are correct? I'd rethink this. Look at the figures. That's a wide range of algal types/species/groups. Hard to say what all you have going on here, but your hypothesis can be falsified and refuted.


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## Solcielo lawrencia

Tom,
I'm wondering how you quick-start your tanks. Do you always add mulm from preexisting tanks? I ask because certain populations of microorganisms (not just bacteria, but protozoans, archaea, fungi, etc.) need to find a balance amongst themselves. They prey on each other for food. If at any point it becomes unbalanced, say fewer microbes that eat algae, then that algae will take over.

Simple ways to quickly unbalance the microbial population: drastically change the photoperiod or increase light intensity.

Also, if you do add mulm, have you tried starting a tank without it? Have you gotten GDA then?


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## happi

plantbrain said:


> I've seen folks fiddle for years searching, meanwhile, I've seen other folks dose the ferts and focus on plant growth, the latter seemed to have advanced much faster and achieve their horticultural goals much faster.
> 
> *I do not have any GDA even though I have client's who had it and other folks locally whom I worked with to get rid of it for them. I dose differently that you and the fert mix you come up with and can modify over a pretty massive range without getting GDA or other algae.
> 
> We have a huge range of ferts that grow plants well without algae.
> We also have a huge range of ferts that grow algae well also.
> 
> Everyone knows this to be observed facts. If the ratio or the dosing of some special mix is some cure, then why do my own tanks lack the issues? I've exposed the GDA repeatedly many times. Cannot get it to grow.
> This falsifies the claim that is ferts independent of other possible causes(of which there are many).
> 
> This suggest that it's something other than the fert ratios of ppm's etc.
> Liebig's law of limitation applies if you get low enough, but then you have dependence in your test methods, you cannot say much due to errors in the methods.
> 
> I do not try and prove cause, I try and falsify the hypotheses one by one.
> There is a big difference in that method versus trying to find cause via correlation alone. There may also be multiple causes, BGA for example is one.
> 
> As far as NO3 vs NH4, plants will use either, I found little difference using both for about 2 years. I got tired of that, because, I like fish in my tanks...and I like to feed them well, which means ample NH4. I used NH4Cl and (NH4)2 SO4, but urea poses little issue and is cheaper and more widely available for many.
> 
> Algae most certainly can use urea FYI.
> This clearly states that the algae did best on urea in fact:
> 
> http://plankt.oxfordjournals.org/content/21/8/1423.full.pdf
> 
> Happi, you said you researched this, and yet this was the 1st search I pulled up when using google using "Urea as a source of N for algae". Paper was cited 95 times. Maybe they are wrong and you are correct? I'd rethink this. Look at the figures. That's a wide range of algal types/species/groups. Hard to say what all you have going on here, but your hypothesis can be falsified and refuted.


Tom many people out there have used Urea as a main source of nitrogen, including well known James, company such as seachem uses Urea as their main source of nitrogen as well, if it was the cause of algae then they wouldn't make a such a fertilizer.

you have also missed the main point about the Urea and already came up with the conclusion, if you look at my Quote from the first page, i myself have accepted Urea can cause serious Algae, i even have mentioned what kind of algae you will get first, take a look at Quote:

*keep in mind NH4 and Urea doesn't stay in NH4 form for very long in the water, eventually it is converted to NO3 if plant doesn't use it, this is the only good reason to have good colony of bacteria, if you have low KH/Ph i suggest adding it in small amount.* 

*ok now lets start by looking at the graphs, if you look at it carefully you will see how Urea and NH4 can increase the Algae growth at much faster rate compare to NO3, but keep in mind, it shows algae growth increase as the days pass by, you wont see any urea or NH4 in your tank for more than couple of hours after adding it, any excess urea/NH4 will be converted to Nitrate within the same day or maybe next day, only NO3 levels can go up. now look at the graphs and you be the judge.

NH4 act as quick boost to plants and Algae and should be used in very small amount. start with 0.1ppm of NH4, Urea on the other hand works little different than the NH4, it break down into the plants in such a way that algae cannot get much chance to use it, something to do with algae lacking enzymes. Urea is better and can be used in higher dose than NH4, you can start with 0.5ppm of Urea if you want to test it. 

When using Urea, you must be careful not to overdose too much when using high lights, you will start to see some Blue green and slime algae on the leafs, this is a clear sign of too much light and excess Urea, if this happen dose less.
*
KNo3 and Po4 when they are excess they will certainly cause GDA


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## FlyingHellFish

Happi, I know you might be discouraged by the lack of response but I for one appreciate your research. I think the reason why people are not so responsive is because of the unique water parameter you have. Plus, they don't want to sound like an idiot. 

So with the risk of sounding like an idiot. I was thinking the following - 

There was some talk about the Europeans using a mixture of nitrogen source instead of just KNO3, I forgot where I was reading that. 

Anyways, if you add all 3, wouldn't that help for both High and Low PH?


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## armadillo.mx

So, taking in account this thread can anyone describe in short what would be the cure ?


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## plantbrain

FlyingHellFish said:


> Happi, I know you might be discouraged by the lack of response but I for one appreciate your research. I think the reason why people are not so responsive is because of the unique water parameter you have. Plus, they don't want to sound like an idiot.
> 
> So with the risk of sounding like an idiot. I was thinking the following -
> 
> There was some talk about the Europeans using a mixture of nitrogen source instead of just KNO3, I forgot where I was reading that.
> 
> Anyways, if you add all 3, wouldn't that help for both High and Low PH?


Same with having some fish and you know.........feeding them. 
That adds NH4.

But maybe many folks do not have fish? That is not some special fert routine.

Even if you remove 100% of the fish............I've done this, shrimp etc, a few snails, plants do great on a diet of NO3 alone.

Tobi suggested this(addign NH4 and some special blend). Flowgrow, German web site. 
He's a bit more conceding about it, nothing wrong with adding some NH4 to a mix or paying a bit more attention to the tank in general, but it's not the "cure". In general, it's not going save anyone from algae or poor plant health any more than adding some fish and feeding them.
His take was more for the plant's, but frankly, I have some of the most touchy hard to grow species all doing great together, I garden and trim them intensively, I have no such issues with the plain old EI routine.
This shows, regardless of other claims, that ferts alone, are not an issue. It's independent and has to be. 

Tobi, Happi, whomever, they have to falsify my tank or other folk's, and that just cannot be done.
The tanks themselves falsify the claims.


Till someone can reconcile that, I'm not buying any of it. 
It just smacks a lack of common sense and what most hobbyists who have fish and planted tanks have seen for many decades. There is no running around that issue.
Folks have long had fish in planted tanks and dose. 


A 100% cure is to add a bristle nose pleco per say 10-20 gallon of tank. I've yet to meet a single aquarist who has had GDA be an issue after doing that. 
Cheap and small. The initial method I suggested worked for many folks also, but not all of them(not 100%)
1. Leave the GDA be for 3-4 weeks, then wipe off. 
2. Sewingalot also claimed EM tablets killed it and stopped a BGA induced GDA outbreak cycle. 
Both cases are not 100%, nor is dosing ferts. 

Bristle nose Plecos are 100%.

In order to know of find a cure, you need to know how to induce the alga in question. Only then do you begin to understand much. No one has shown what is a pretty consistent(say even 90% of the time) way to induce GDA. 
I can induce GHA, GSA, BBA, BGA, GW, Staghorn consistently. Not GDA.


Folks add Otto's for diatoms, shrimp to pick and clean(ADA strongly suggest this). Various critters for hair algae etc, SAE's for BBA etc.


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