# Wanna get rams but I have hard water. Suggestions?



## Digital (Apr 4, 2008)

A lot of peat would do it.


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## machinehead26 (Mar 13, 2010)

reverse osmosis


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Buy locally bred fish. They will be well adapted to your water. Most tank raised fish are adapted to water much outside their "ideal".


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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

I do a 75/25 RO water to tap with my tanks.


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## justinq (Dec 6, 2006)

My local water situation is similar to yours, but I've had good success keeping rams by lowering the pH with some Malaysian driftwood. I used Purigen to prevent the ugly tea color from happening. In my experience, the hardest thing about blue rams is acclimation and getting healthy specimens. Once they're acclimated to your conditions, they've seemed fairly hardy to me. If you can get healthy ones, they take to acclimation much easier. If the rams look like they have sunken in bellies or they're hanging out at the surface, don't buy them. One of the biggest problems with BRs seems to be that they come in with internal parasites that eventually due them in. I've had great success by using some safe anti-parasite medications when I was acclimating them, instead of waiting till later for them to show signs. Praziquantel and Metronidazole are good, if you buy API's General Cure for parasites, it contains both. Both are extremely safe for fish, plants and bacteria, though obviously if you have a quarantine tank to acclimate them in, this is best. And like overstocked said, locally bred fish will be best.


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## Riiz (Apr 30, 2008)

over_stocked said:


> Buy locally bred fish. They will be well adapted to your water. Most tank raised fish are adapted to water much outside their "ideal".



Or even let the LFS hold onto them for awhile and let them take the labor of acclimating them. To the OP, we have about the same type of water, and I've been able to house blue/golden rams without issue.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Reverse Osmosis water, mixed with just enough tap water to supply the correct levels of minerals. 

Get tests for GH and KH. 

Good conditions for breeding Rams will be GH and KH under 3 German degrees of hardness. 
Once you get the water pretty close to this add some peat moss to the filter. This will add the organic acids to the water that these fish appreciate.


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## Digital (Apr 4, 2008)

I just got a GBR the other day for my 37g and so far so good, going on 3 days, and the tank has been cycling with 3 giant danios w/ live plants. I got my GBR for $10, I asked about Electric Blue Rams and they said they'd probably be around $25 USD when they arrived...


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## Ariel301 (Sep 7, 2009)

I have never lived in a place that did not have super hard water, and I have had no trouble keeping rams. If they came out of soft water to begin with, just drip acclimate them. The best would be to find them from a local breeder, as they will be already acclimated and probably healthier than most LFS fish. Mine were spawning regularly in water that would have been suitable for African cichlids.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

Ok, I will check with my LFS to see what their ph and hardness are that they keep rams in. I will definately use the drip acclimation when I get them.


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

You can buy a decent RO system off Ebay for about $100 for a 100 gpd unit. They take about 10 minutes to install. You can also buy ro water at a lot of LFS' for a fairly reasonable price.

OR......... you can keep trying to keep fish in water they don't belong in, kill them, and try again, and again, and again.

All of a sudden that $100 isn't such a bad investment is it? IMO, checking the water at the LFS is pretty close to worthless since most fish were not raised there and any ill effects the fish will have because of the water probably won't show before the fish are sold. The ro/tapwater ratio that people give is pretty much worthless too without the gh/kh info.

My ro system puts out a tds reading of 006 with gh/kh so close to zero I can't measure it. A friend of mine in another State can only get his tds down to about 40. So you see, a 75/25 ratio for me would yield a completely different chemistry than what my friend would get.

If you're not willing to give the fish what they need to thrive or at least survive, then why get them? It makes more sense to stay with fish that are suited to the water you are willing to give them.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

> OR......... you can keep trying to keep fish in water they don't belong in, kill them, and try again, and again, and again.
> 
> All of a sudden that $100 isn't such a bad investment is it? IMO, checking the water at the LFS is pretty close to worthless since most fish were not raised there and any ill effects the fish will have because of the water probably won't show before the fish are sold. The ro/tapwater ratio that people give is pretty much worthless too without the gh/kh info.


I am sorry if my comments upset you. I would like to stress that my LFS does breed a few rams, so I want to find out what the water they were raised in was like. I am on a tight budget and am looking at all my options b4 I invest in an RO system. Also, if my goal was to kill all the fish I bought, I would not be asking questions. Thank you for pointing out how cheap I could find an RO system, I didnt know they came this cheap. However, I would like to respectfully ask you to dispense with the attitude. Thank you


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## rmc (Dec 6, 2005)

I would hardly call my comment an "attitude". However, I can quickly get one if you wish.

People in a lot of forums ask similar questions and most already know the answer as I'm sure you did. I'm sorry if I did not say what you wanted to hear but then again, you asked! There are exceptions to every rule in this hobby but generally, the "norm" wins most of the time. Perhaps you are the one that should dispense with the attitude?

I don't know what you are paying for fish and I don't really care. I gave you info on price and where to find an ro system. If you choose not to buy one I don't really care. An ro system will allow you to adjust your water to whatever species of fish you want to keep in the future. If getting the rams and putting them in less than ideal conditions is more cost effective to your precious budget, I don't really care.

If the scenario I gave about killing fish and trying again and again becomes a reality then it won't take long before you have more money invested in dead fish than you would have in an ro system that would be much more valuable in the future.

My comments were "food-for-thought" and NOT an "attitude". Will you kill your fish?......... I have no idea. The odds are against you but I'm sure you already knew that. Maybe it's better to just say you can keep rams in the same conditions as rift lake cichlids. You get to hear what you want and get the added bonus of being able to blame any failures on bad info. Go for it!!


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

Ok, thank you. I don't mind being told I'm wrong and I don't want to get in an argument with you. I respect that you know much more than I do about all of this. I don't plan on getting rams for a while, and definately not b4 I can keep the tank with softer water. I'm sorry if my comments offended you and I thank you for the time you spent to correct my thinking. Research is something that never stops and I would like to thank everyone on this site that have helped me avoid various disasters. Thank you.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is an easy test that might help:
Set up a 5 gallon bucket with 3-4 gallons of water and 1/2 cup of peat moss. Add a small pump or bubbler if you have one. Otherwise stir it several times per day by hand. 

Test GH, KH and pH at the start, then every few days for a week or two. 

If this improves your water, then go ahead and get the Rams. Then you will need to prepare the water for water changes ahead of time. Circulate it with peat moss until it matches the tank water.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

thx again diana. I will definately try this even if I don't get the rams, just to soften my water a bit.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Remember to keep it civil. Tanknewbie, I believe rmc is only trying to help. Often times it is difficult to know any intentions on internet forums, but I don't think he meant you ill will.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Locally captive-bred Rams would definitely be the way to go if you don't go with an RO unit.

My Rams spawned every 2 weeks in my own liquid rock well water. I know my stock came from Tampa (so not far away) and so I never had any issues with them at all. 

There's a huge difference between wild-caught and captive-bred stock, but even wild-caught stock can generally be successfully acclimated to "other" water parameters as long as 1- those parameters aren't TOO extreme, 2- care is taken to acclimate them slowly, and 3- the water parameters are then stable and overall water quality good. 

If your goal is just to keep them and not to breed them, then I'd give it a go.

If your goal is to breed them, then I'd definitely get an RO unit going first. pH and hardness can dramatically impact egg and fry development.


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## Kwazar (Apr 23, 2010)

Adding some driftwood (as stated above) could help the water problem, if you have the tank space that is. Also, if your water is naturally hard, why not look at some African cichlids? Although even the small species will be pretty big compared to blue rams they are the same type of fish and thrive in hard water.


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## davrx (Feb 19, 2010)

I have a pair of beautiful German Blue Rams that I originally kept in water with a kH of 8 with no ill effects. I've since slowly lowered the kH to 5 by using RO or distilled water with each water change which I only do about once a month. I believe these were captive bred but I'm not sure. I think getting healthy rams to begin with is the most important factor.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Diana said:


> Reverse Osmosis water, mixed with just enough tap water to supply the correct levels of minerals.
> 
> Get tests for GH and KH.
> 
> ...


+one. Rams are by FAR easier to keep this way.Not withstanding those who report SOME success keeping them in hard water.Small 20 gal tank makes it even easier with regard to mixing the RO/tapwater.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

ok, so even though Rams can get by in hard water, they can't thrive in it. I think I will follow some of the suggestions I have received about the Kribs. I saw them at my LFS the other day, and they look pretty cool. I'm afraid rams will have to wait until I can more properly meet their needs. Thank you!


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

another easy to soften the water is to get some peat pellets and put them in a filter media bag. take the bag of pellets and put them in your canister filter. works great. 

hope it helps


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## Csababá (Jan 27, 2010)

Are you all sure that peat makes the water significantly softer? I heard it otherwise.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*hi*



Csababá said:


> Are you all sure that peat makes the water significantly softer? I heard it otherwise.


adding peat will lower the PH and make the water little soft, it does not work if your water is extremely hard. it is also useless if you are going to change 50% water due to EI dosing. 

currently i have the same fish in my tank, lets see how well it would do. so far i have had neon's and other type of tetras living in my water for at least 1 year now. even though they also require soft water.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

Well, I have a LFS store that regularly keeps their rams in hard tapwater, wether or not they are bred in that, I do not know.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Get Bolivian Rams instead. They're beautiful and you won't have to fuss with the water.


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## tanknewbie (Apr 27, 2010)

ok, so if you had to pick between bolivian rams, and kribs for a 20g tank. Which would it be?


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## shane3fan (Nov 2, 2009)

Im partial to the kribensis---I have a pair. They are very pretty and have cool habits. I havent put mine in the tank together yet, so I dont have any input to breeding tempermant. Ive heard they can be a little grumpy when breeding. As soon as my female gets old enough I will find out.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Here in Utah we are breeding Rams in 7.4 PH with no problems. But all of the Rams we are breeding come a from a decent line of Rams that have lived in our hard water for sometime.

You might get lucky and find someone who is breeding them in local water and has been for a while.

You could also Try Apistos. They are much more tolerant to harder water. But again, I got mine from a long line of Apistos that have been bred in our Utah waters for years. I breed mine in 7.2 PH.


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## Csababá (Jan 27, 2010)

*Ph*

I1m sorry but PH is not in close connection with hardness (KH, GH, etc). It's acidity if my memory serves me well.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

I said we were breeding Rams in Hard water, and that the PH we found to work is 7.4. I was just trying to provide details on how we were doing it. Sorry if I confused anyone. The water hardness for all of my tanks is roughly the same, but I have found that PH does effect spawning.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Csababá said:


> I1m sorry but PH is not in close connection with hardness (KH, GH, etc). It's acidity if my memory serves me well.


Try changing your kh and gh and keeping your pH the same... Then tell me it isn't connected.


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## Mikaila31 (Mar 28, 2010)

over_stocked said:


> Try changing your kh and gh and keeping your pH the same... Then tell me it isn't connected.


Very true.

I raised local bred rams from 1/4" fry in my well water. pH was 7.6 and they did fine. KH last time I checked was about 8 degrees. Nitrate is 20ppm out of tap as well. I don't have up to date GH but I know it is slightly to moderately hard water. Once they reached adults they spawned in my community tank without me doing anything. The tank was actually 2 weeks behind on water changes. Eggs of course never last very long for me.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Mikaila31 said:


> Very true.
> 
> I raised local bred rams from 1/4" fry in my well water. pH was 7.6 and they did fine. KH last time I checked was about 8 degrees. Nitrate is 20ppm out of tap as well. I don't have up to date GH but I know it is slightly to moderately hard water. Once they reached adults they spawned in my community tank without me doing anything. The tank was actually 2 weeks behind on water changes. Eggs of course never last very long for me.


'Aged' water is one if the biggest secrets to Ram breeding! A great way to do this is to tak water out of your CLEANEST tank and let it sit out until it gets a little colder then the normal tank temperature. Then use it for a water change on whatever tank has the Rams (or other dwarf SA cichlids) and BINGO! you have got a spawn on your hands. I have been using this method for about 6 moths on my tanks, makes water changed easier too! As a side note on my method: I do use a lot of Metricide to promote plant growth and fight algae. My tanks are Algae free, even with using other tanks water.


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## Mikaila31 (Mar 28, 2010)

That tank was still really not a breeding environment even if the water was aged. The tankmates at the time included my 2 adult caecilians which were both 2 feet long, then 9 ember tetras, 8 rummy nose, 3 panda garras, 1 SAE, 6 endlers, and 5 or 6 german blue rams. The tank was also in the licensed daycare part of my parents house, so LOTS of commotion going on outside the tank too. I should also point out that pH in the tank they spawned in was probably somewhere around 7, since CO2 was running on that one.


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## EntoCraig (Jun 7, 2010)

Well whatever you did, it worked


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