# Needle Valve - Inexpensive option?



## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

I know, people may feel that $47.20 is inexpensive for a needle valve, but I would like to find something closer to $30 if possible.

$47.20 is what the Fabco NV-55-18 costs directly from Fabco w/ UPS Ground Shipping.

Anyone know of a less expensive option that works, at least for a few months, that I can order in and have here in a week or less?

I'm in the process of handling multiple tanks for equipment so the less I can spend the better off I am at the moment. Once all the tanks are up and running it's going to be a lot easier to replace the needle valve I purchase now with a more expensive one, but with the costs of lights, etc... it all adds up really vast.

Thanks.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Spend the extra $17.20 now, and get something that will last and work well. You'll only need to buy it once. 

Otherwise, you'll end up with something cheep that you'll end up replacing and long term spending even more money.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> I know, people may feel that $47.20 is inexpensive for a needle valve, but I would like to find something closer to $30 if possible.
> 
> $47.20 is what the Fabco NV-55-18 costs directly from Fabco w/ UPS Ground Shipping.
> 
> ...


SMC air control valves.. "LIKE" this one but need the exact model #
SMC AS Air Flow Control Valve, PBT & Nickel Plated Brass, Elbow, Low Speed, Unified Thread Male X Push-to-Connect Fitting: Industrial Control Valves: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

as-1000 m3 I believe.


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## GreenGills (Mar 20, 2016)

Wondering if something like this might work? They are all over ebay for about 1/3 the price shown.

https://store.mathesongas.com/100-series-needle-valves-brass-ss-monel/


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## bitFUUL (May 14, 2010)

You get what you pay for.


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## alberth (Feb 13, 2015)

lnstevens said:


> I know, people may feel that $47.20 is inexpensive for a needle valve, but I would like to find something closer to $30 if possible.
> 
> $47.20 is what the Fabco NV-55-18 costs directly from Fabco w/ UPS Ground Shipping.
> 
> ...


They have it a bit cheaper here with free shipping CO2 Regulator Parts | CO2 For Planted Tanks And Home Brewing. Fabco NV-55-18 Needle Valve


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

That helps a little and definitely makes it more realistic.

I did wander through there "fittings" section and was surprised to not see a 1/4" NPT to 3/16" barb fitting though. Funny enough Fastenal has them (and has them in stock locally) for $0.76 each.

So, on that note, since nothing would probably ship until Monday anyways I think I'm going to call back one of the local Fabco distributors and see what they could get it for. If they toss it in on another order I might be able to get it for $40 or less.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

bitFUUL said:


> You get what you pay for.


Sort of...................



> kevin, wait until you have experience with newer model SMC AS1000 series needle valve, you may have different opinion,
> 
> The one you talk about is the bigger needle stem, old and discontinued SMC AS1200.
> 
> ...


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9...-selection-our-co2-pressurized-system-15.html



> *SMC AS1000 Series needle valve*, Part number AS120?-*
> Orifice: N/A
> Cv: N/A (approximately at 2.83 SCFM at 10 turn, but the flow curve is concaved, at 4.5 turn is 0.71 SCFM compare to NV-55 which is 0.95+ SCFM at 4.5 turn.
> owned


One could even argue it is better than the Fabco..............


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

So this one?

http://www.smcpneumatics.com/AS1000-M3.html

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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> So this one?
> 
> SMC AS1000-M3 speed controller, AS FLOW CONTROL***
> 
> Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk



most seem to use the 1200.. but the 1000 m3 should be better..










http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9...change-needle-valve-my-aquatek-regulator.html

Problem is your fittings may be more than the valve.. These are *$7 .. one for each side..


> Nickel Plated Brass Fitting 1/16" ID Hose Barb x M3 Thread Air Water Coupler


Amazon.com: M3 Male Thread to 3mm 3/25" Pneumatic Tube Hose Mini Barb Fittings 5 Pcs: Home Improvement

so it would end up costing $20 plus shipping,,s


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Ok, that thread actually made it kind of confusing and maybe I'm thinking this out all the wrong way.

I want the Needle Valve inline on the tubing not on the solenoid. Since the solenoid appears to be 1/4 NPT I was thinking at 1/4 NPT to 3/16" Barb and using 3/16" hose, like most aquarium air hose, to connect from there.

So am I thinking about this the wrong way?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> Ok, that thread actually made it kind of confusing and maybe I'm thinking this out all the wrong way.
> 
> I want the Needle Valve inline on the tubing not on the solenoid. Since the solenoid appears to be 1/4 NPT I was thinking at 1/4 NPT to 3/16" Barb and using 3/16" hose, like most aquarium air hose, to connect from there.
> 
> So am I thinking about this the wrong way?


Links I posted were m3 to tubing..so in-line is the only option. Photo was to show various "styles" and types..
The whole smc valve thing is kind of confusing. Last time I looked they had a "low speed" series in m5.
But that aside.. the larger the fitting the 'coarser" the flow..but seems even those are "usable"..

another option.. tube only (well set up that way).. $23US..
Camozzi Advance CO2 Flow Controller Needle Valve | CO2Art.co.uk
Can't be positive but this is the US listings:
http://www.camozzi-usa.com/sites/de...fu-in-line-flow-control-valves/series-rfu.pdf
notice .. smaller the port generally smaller the orifice that is available..
rfu-452 M5 has the lowest cfm ..

RFO RFU difference is "directionality"..Suppose bidirectional is easiest.
http://www.bibus.at/fileadmin/product_data/camozzi/documents/ccc_serie_rfu_datasheet_en_v81.pdf
RFO3(x)2 
RFU4(x)2

2's seem the only useable orifice..

RFO352-m5..

Just an example b4 getting back to smc............








to be honest.. not sure if the unidirectional ones will work..


m3 hose barbs pk of 6:
ASP Online Store: Pneumadyne M3 Hose Barbs
finally found the low speed series..
http://content2.smcetech.com/pdf/ASLowSpeed.pdf

AS1201FM 
AS1301FM

fun w/ valves..








6 way CO2 System - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report



> SMC AS1000 series have smaller(better) flow rate at low turn range compare to Fabco NV-55.











small camozzi comparison chart:


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

bitFUUL said:


> You get what you pay for.



Buy cheap, cry twice
Buy expensive, cry once


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I've had the smc for quite a while and it's been very steady for me.


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## sharkbunnie (Oct 22, 2015)

If you are going to put the valve in-line, you could order the fabco NV-55 with 10-32 ports ($23.05) and then get 10-32 threaded hose barbs or compression fittings and remain under $40.00, while getting the same valve as the NV-55-18. Just a thought, hope it helps.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Nordic said:


> Buy cheap, cry twice
> Buy expensive, cry once


You know I used to think this way a lot. Then I started having to buy the cheaper parts for a variety of things. 

What I've found is high price does not always equal quality and inexpensive does not always mean cheaply made.

That is why I came looking for options and the SMC, providing I can figure out all the adapters, looks like a possible viable option.

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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

These look like fun............ 
NEW Inline Flow Controls


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Where it comes to tech or hardware my experience is; where something costs 50% of another more expensive option, it often doesn't even provide 50% of the quality, durability and ease of use.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Well I am confused and it's giving me a headache. lol

I would like to go with the SMC option as it seems like a good option. Especially when I'm going to have to put together multiple needle valves coming off the 20lb tank (planning to use it to run multiple tanks).

So I talked with Jeff a bit and narrowed it down "a little".

It looks like my best bets would be either:

AS1000-M3
AS1000-M5

or this new one:
NEW Inline Flow Controls

The problem I have now is fittings. I found an M5 to 5mm hose barb (slightly bigger than the 3/16" standard hose, but should fit) only coming from Honk Kong. I would rather not wait 30 to 60 days.

So, now I'm trying to figure out fittings. 

Essentially I'm going from what I believe is a 1/4" NPT on the solenoid to a 3/16" hose barb. That I should be able to get at Fastenal.

If I stay at 3/16" now I need to get that M3 or M5 fitting to 3/16", or guide me to a different size hose that will work fittings.

That's where I'm at now. I'm still scouring other threads, but any help would be appreciated.


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

Scour the bay. Plenty of quality valves to be had for less than $50.

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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> Well I am confused and it's giving me a headache. lol
> 
> I would like to go with the SMC option as it seems like a good option. Especially when I'm going to have to put together multiple needle valves coming off the 20lb tank (planning to use it to run multiple tanks).
> 
> ...


a 6/4mm od/id m5 fitting..
16/64..10/64..1/4 x 5/32

3/16th hose should fit a 6/4 barb..

TodayComponents.com - SMC Corporation M-5H-6 Pneumatics

Switch to metric tubing.. Most things like atomizers ect actually "seem" to fit better anyways..
Bump:


Dead2fall said:


> Scour the bay. Plenty of quality valves to be had for less than $50.
> 
> Sent from my HTC331ZLVW using Tapatalk


not lately,,seems the bay has been highgraded... and by the time you tack on fittings.. price is elevated quite a bit..


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Why so long ex hong kong, I live in Africa, and the average waiting period when I ebay stuff from there is about 10 working days...


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

I don't know of anybody who's used the AS-1000, so I'm not sure how well it works. But I'm glad it looks like you're going to test it.

A couple thoughts. Flow rate on paper is never the same as is true in our applications, so it's always going to be safer to go with something somebody already has, and can recommend. Otherwise, it's a gamble - though somebody has to do the testing.

Also, the scale of that thing (the M3) is tough to understand until you actually have one. They're *tiny*. That's not really a problem, but the size of the knob might be. It looks, from the .pdf, like it's somewhere between 4 and 4.5mm in diameter. Assuming 4.5mm, That's maybe slightly bigger than half the diameter of an average pea. Compare that to the knob size of the NV-55, which is 16mm. Since we're usually working in fractions of a turn except for really good valves and/or really big tanks, half a turn open is probably realistic for a lot of setups. With that size knob, half a turn is about 7mm along the circumference, or just over 1/4 inch. Tweaking it from that point becomes difficult, and frustrating (try to imagine turning a really tiny knob 1/16 or 1/32 of an inch). The same fraction of a turn on an NV-55 is about an inch, so you have 4X the distance to play around in. From somebody who's toyed with a lot of valves and has big fat fingers, I'm a huge fan of large valve knobs.

Anyway, if you decide to go with the AS-1000, please keep us updated!

(the M5 is a bit bigger, but less precise by a good bit)


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

kevmo911 said:


> Also, the scale of that thing (the M3) is tough to understand until you actually have one. They're *tiny*.


Another problem is finding fittings that one can use..
As for hose barbs the largest size I found in m3
is 1/8" i.d barb 
MettleAir 125NP-2M3-SB-1 PK 1/8" ID M3 Male Single Barb Hose/Tubing Fitting Connector, Nickel Plated: Garden Hose Parts: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

https://www.mettleair.com/store/brass/b2tmain/12512619251926main/125.html

Adding a coupler will get you into aquarium range.. 
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?sku=64273&gclid=CLrP2tqB9csCFRIbgQod6R0HHA
Going 1/16 to 3/16 is almost impossible to find. Would more than likely need to go 1/16 to 1/8 to 3/16ths w/ 2 fittings..
m-3au-4 is supposed to be the largest straight fitting w/ a od/id of 4 /2.5 2.5= .098"
1/8 = .125


There seems to be plenty of smc1200's being used both commercially and diy that I really can't imagine its smaller sibling w/ much lower scfm to be "unusable" Weirder things have happened though......


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

There are things to consider when trying new ways to save money. One can be bold and think of it as an experiment so that he is willing to risk the loss. Or one can go with the tried and true, knowing that there are thousands of folks who are daily trying to find the better, cheaper option. Maybe you can be the one to find the better way. 
So which group are you in? Bold and daring to lose some money on something that isn't tried or wanting to save money by using what you know works as many people are using it? 
I like to save money just by training and nature but I also don't risk buying untried stuff except as a fun experiment that I can afford.


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## bluesand (Nov 3, 2014)

have any one used the clippard Mnv-4k2, its cheap and reliable.

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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> There are things to consider when trying new ways to save money. One can be bold and think of it as an experiment so that he is willing to risk the loss. Or one can go with the tried and true, knowing that there are thousands of folks who are daily trying to find the better, cheaper option. Maybe you can be the one to find the better way.
> So which group are you in? Bold and daring to lose some money on something that isn't tried or wanting to save money by using what you know works as many people are using it?
> I like to save money just by training and nature but I also don't risk buying untried stuff except as a fun experiment that I can afford.


smc1200 IS tried and true.......... 
just doesn't cost much..

Trying a 1000 is $8 plus fittings so maybe a total waste of $15
Price of a poor colored t5.. 


Trying these valves is a far cry from "bold" btw.
"Bold" is buying a used regulator on eek bay...



> The SMC 1000 series are ok, the newer plastic versions are much better than the metal version which is older model.
> you can find all the information in TPT about this SMC 1000, just search the old threads, I 've already put the information out there and sold whole bunch of the "post body kit", basicly a clippard mouse solenoid and SMC 1000 flow control valve combo.





> These are the same design as the SMC AS12xx valves except they are inline, not angled. I plan on using SMC inline valves to control the flow of multiple tanks.


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/532410-metering-valve-vs-flow-control-valves-3.html


Those who ignore the past are destined to repeat it.. 

addendum. m3 to m6 adapter 


> Jeff,
> 
> The largest barb we offer with an M3 thread is designed for a 0.097 I.D. tube.
> 
> You may want to contact Memco. Ask for Ray. They make part# M3-B4. See page 23 of the PDF link. http://www.mem-co.com/pdf/Memco_Cat_May13.pdf


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

First thanks for all the help, especially jeffkrol. 

I placed the order with Allied Electronics for $23.99 after sorting out what I needed then calling SMC to get the part numbers.

All I still need is to get a return pump and build an intake/spray bar since I'll be running this separate from my Rena XP3.

The parts I am getting are:

KQ2H06-U02A - 1/4" NPT (Solenoid) to 6mm (4/6) Tubing.

KQ2H06-M5A - M5 Connector (needle valve) to 6mm (4/6) tubing x 2 of these

AS1000-M5 - AS1000 Needle Valve w/ M5 connectors.

Now, to make things interesting my local Fabco Distributor got back to me and I also ordered an NV-55-18 for $33 from them. 

Where this is an untested setup (still need to order tubing) I figured having the Fabco on hand would be nice and I still have 2 more regulators and one more Co2 Tank. lol


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

For all those who doubt the SMC AS1000 Series............

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9...-pressurized-system-15-way-post-body-kit.html

It's already been done. lol Says it's as precise as the NV55, and I know it's less expensive.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

lnstevens said:


> For all those who doubt the SMC AS1000 Series............
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9...-pressurized-system-15-way-post-body-kit.html
> 
> It's already been done. lol Says it's as precise as the NV55, and I know it's less expensive.


That build involves the older AS-1200's. The AS-1000's should have similar flow characteristics but have a much different look.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

lnstevens said:


> I know, people may feel that $47.20 is inexpensive for a needle valve, but I would like to find something closer to $30 if possible.
> 
> $47.20 is what the Fabco NV-55-18 costs directly from Fabco w/ UPS Ground Shipping.
> 
> ...


Keep reading threads like this. Do a little research and figure out what to search for on auction type sites. I think I paid like 20 bucks for the best metering valve I've ever owned... There are many to be had for less than $40.


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## creekbottom (Apr 5, 2012)

The SMC flow control valves are easy to use and CHEAP! Also, you can get them from a distributor instead of waiting for shipping and they are still CHEAP. I've used AS1200 and they are precise enough. I'm sure they are not as good as those fancy stainless steel valves with digital handles and vernier whatever. But, I'm more of the school of keep it simple and it doesn't have to be the biggest baddest thing to keep up with the neighbours. 

I'm just curious why you went with the M5 instead of getting one with a 1/4" output?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

creekbottom said:


> The SMC flow control valves are easy to use and CHEAP! Also, you can get them from a distributor instead of waiting for shipping and they are still CHEAP. I've used AS1200 and they are precise enough. I'm sure they are not as good as those fancy stainless steel valves with digital handles and vernier whatever. But, I'm more of the school of keep it simple and it doesn't have to be the biggest baddest thing to keep up with the neighbours.
> 
> I'm just curious why you went with the M5 instead of getting one with a 1/4" output?


smaller the "port" smaller the flow...


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> smaller the "port" smaller the flow...


Actually right now I'm considering ordering one of the ones designed for hoses on a 6 millimeter since I purchased 30 feet 4/6 hose from Amazon on Prime for $10.66. Right now I have to needle valves and 3 regulators and 3 running tanks and one started tank they're all planted.

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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

do you have one touch fittings on your set up? and if yes which tubing did you order ? im considering going with SMC valves any one think it would be better to go with their low flow valves rather than AS1000


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Part numbers listed were all for 4 / 6mm hose

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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

I don't know if these are touch but this is what's going on the needle valve.
http://sigma.octopart.com/22099751/image/SMC-KQ2H06-M5.jpg

This is what's going on the solenoid.

http://sigma.octopart.com/28516796/image/SMC-KQ2H06-U02A.jpg

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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

Yes those are one touch fittings


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

The key is there for size comparison.

AS1000-M5 with 2 x M5 to 4/6mm one touch hose couplers.










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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

So far great control. Since I don't have a drop checker at the moment I'm just eyeballing it. I had some light pearling earlier.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> So far great control.



As expected..  Do you have it hooked to a bubble counter?? What is the lowest steady rate?


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Like 1 bubble every 5, but I can double check that tomorrow. I kind of through it all together and I'm going to work on cleaning up the mess of wires and hoses under the cabinet tomorrow.

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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Came out to 1 bubble every 4 to 5 seconds on my cheesy bubble counter. The control is also very fine, which is nice. And the knob is plenty large to make adjustments easy.

Overall I'm happy with it.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

wintu said:


> do you have one touch fittings on your set up? and if yes which tubing did you order ? im considering going with SMC valves any one think it would be better to go with their low flow valves rather than AS1000


I went with 4/6mm Co2 proof tubing. When I ordered the fittings I specifically ordered 4/6mm fittings. Everything went together perfect.

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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

So, to update here is where I'm at.

I have 3 tanks in my living room that I want Co2 on. I'm actually going to rearrange my living room to get the tanks closer.

My plans are to purchase a 1/8 NPT to 4/6mm one touch fitting, a 3 way one touch 4/6mm splitter, and 2 needle valves. I'm considering 2 x of the be ones with one touch fittings for this.

The other way I've considered is a 3 way manifold to 3 solenoids so I could run timers independently for all 3 tanks.

Eventually I would like to be able to split the system up so I can run each tank on there own Co2. 

This is only for the tanks inside the house. For the garage I intend on using the 20 lb tank and running all tanks off of it.



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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

lnstevens said:


> I did wander through there "fittings" section and was surprised to not see a 1/4" NPT to 3/16" barb fitting though. Funny enough Fastenal has them (and has them in stock locally) for $0.76 each.


I found mine at a local hardware store. Googled fastenal and I see they have a store near me. I shall have to check them out.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Well to update this I have a Fabco, and regardless of how annoying the size is, I'm switching to it.

The SMC did work fine but now it doesn't. Whether that is because water back tracked into it (bad check valve on cheap plastic bubble counter) or from bouncing around while my 75 was down I don't know.

What I do know is it no longer functions correctly. 

I may try another one again in the future.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> Well to update this I have a Fabco, and regardless of how annoying the size is, I'm switching to it.
> 
> The SMC did work fine but now it doesn't. Whether that is because water back tracked into it (bad check valve on cheap plastic bubble counter) or from bouncing around while my 75 was down I don't know.
> 
> ...


Last time my check valve got "wetted" it threw off my Hoke metring valve.
Flap became "sticky"' and couldn't regulate pressure well.
May or may not be part of the issue. That said the SMC is designed for air..


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> Last time my check valve got "wetted" it threw off my Hoke metring valve.
> Flap became "sticky"' and couldn't regulate pressure well.
> May or may not be part of the issue. That said the SMC is designed for air..


Yeah, it very likely could have been the water. I have the Fabco on hand so I'm switching to it.

I like the SMC size a lot better though.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> Yeah, it very likely could have been the water. I have the Fabco on hand so I'm switching to it.
> 
> I like the SMC size a lot better though.


I was actually referring to the check valve getting "sticky" thus changing its cracking pressure so the needle valve couldn't regulate it well.
Good cleaning of the check valve fixed it..


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> I was actually referring to the check valve getting "sticky" thus changing its cracking pressure so the needle valve couldn't regulate it well.
> Good cleaning of the check valve fixed it..


The SMC won't even close completely anymore. It isn't even supposed to allow pressure through at under 15psi and at 1psi it bleeds off when set to closed.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

Just to update this I ordered 1/8" Universal w/ gasket to One Touch 4/6MM tubing adapters from Allied Electronics again. 

These fit perfectly onto the Fabco NV-55-18 so that much is handled. 

Between the SMC and the Fabco I felt the SMC had better and finer control than the Fabco. It was easier to control at lower flows. 

As such I will probably be going back to SMC in the future or another brand w/ better low end flow control.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

lnstevens said:


> Between the SMC and the Fabco I felt the SMC had better and finer control than the Fabco. It was easier to control at lower flows.


Not surprising..








The failure is kind of unnerving though.
There is an eek bay seller selling lots of 5 (m5) 1000's for (w/ shipping) $22
Bought 5 so as to have backups.. 

For $15 from another seller you can get one m3 version.. (even lower flow).
Thought about it..Getting tubing fittings to match the rest of the system seemed problematic..
But for $15 you seem to get to the "micromite" level of control..









Only good up to .35scfm though.


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## lnstevens (Aug 9, 2010)

I won't blame the failure on the needle valve just yet. I'm fairly certain it was due to a failed check valve in the Ista Bubble counter. I don't know if the Fabco is built to work w/ water and air, but the SMC is only built to deal with air. That check valve failed and allowed water to bleed into the needle valve and I believe this is what caused the failure.

Sitting around unused for a almost a month after it happened didn't help either I'm sure.

That's why I'm willing to try them again.


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