# Water changes



## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Ok I can't believe I am about to ask this question and I am sure there will be a good reason but I have kept fish for over 20 years and always carried out weekly waterchanges but I recently (2 months ago) set up my first fully flanted tank now I cycled the tank the first month using fishfood in a stocking the tank was cycled long before I finished my cycling scedule when first few fish went it it had 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and about 10 nitrate but once I put the fish in I removed the stocking and just added the food the fish needed to eat. 

The water readings are now 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and almost 0 nitrates it is certainly less than 5 so as i add ferts to the water that will put nutrients in the water as well as CO2 and the plants are using up the nitrate. I am struggling to come up with a reason to change the water. I have seen a nitrate test as a good indicator of when to change the water previously but is this is still true in a planted tank with added ferts and CO2 if not why not. 



The tank gets added ferts for the plants and the CO2 so what is the need for water changes if not to remove nitrate. The tank is open top and regularly gets topped up.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

aqua360 said:


> Ok I can't believe I am about to ask this question and I am sure there will be a good reason but I have kept fish for over 20 years and always carried out weekly waterchanges but I recently (2 months ago) set up my first fully flanted tank now I cycled the tank the first month using fishfood in a stocking the tank was cycled long before I finished my cycling scedule when first few fish went it it had 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and about 10 nitrate but once I put the fish in I removed the stocking and just added the food the fish needed to eat.
> 
> The water readings are now 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and almost 0 nitrates it is certainly less than 5 so as i add ferts to the water that will put nutrients in the water as well as CO2 and the plants are using up the nitrate. I am struggling to come up with a reason to change the water. I have seen a nitrate test as a good indicator of when to change the water previously but is this is still true in a planted tank with added ferts and CO2 if not why not.
> 
> ...


Water changes will replace essential minerals plants and fish need that are not usually supplied via fertilizers (Ca and Mg for example). 

Also, just because there is no NO3 present (the plants are using it up) does not mean there is no need for water changes, other organic compounds are decomposing in your water that will not contribute to the NO3 test. 

Which NO3 test are you using? The API one is notorious for giving false readings if bottle 2 is not shaken for at least 1 minute and used immediately after shaking.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This is actually a good question and I can argue both sides of the debate.

I believe that everything is situational and one size does not fit all.

As a personal example, I have hard water and am not too worried about Ca/Mg. The tank is at least 75% Java Fern with a bunch of floaters and Ambulia. Med to heavy load of guppies and some cories and I overfeed. Med light and co2 , blah blah blah. The tank had been running for about 15 years, with 3 - re-dos, the last one 3 years ago.

The end result is consistent 40 ppm N and 2 ppm P, pH of 6.7, tap is 7.4.

Sooo, why would I fertilize or do 50% weeekly water changes in that tank? I don't. Top off maybe once a week, 20-30% water change a month or two. Check TDS here and there.

We preach stability above all. What a 50% water change would do to that tank? Most likely nothing, except a higher water bill.

My point: don't blindly buy into somebody else's dogma. Instead think, observe, adapt.

A bare bottom Discus grow out tank? A rotala macrandra tank with 200++ PAR and white drop checker? Different beasts, different training.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Quagulator said:


> Water changes will replace essential minerals plants and fish need that are not usually supplied via fertilizers (Ca and Mg for example).
> 
> Also, just because there is no NO3 present (the plants are using it up) does not mean there is no need for water changes, other organic compounds are decomposing in your water that will not contribute to the NO3 test.
> 
> Which NO3 test are you using? The API one is notorious for giving false readings if bottle 2 is not shaken for at least 1 minute and used immediately after shaking.



I thought there would be something I do put a lot of water in in top up as it comes with being open top which would probably help with the Ca and Mg as I bet I replace 1/4 of the tank a week anyway (I have a Ca test somewhere but don't routinly test for it but will check it out) I do use API test kits and shake the bottle for a minute but also nutrafin but I had not thought about other organic compounds decomposing in the water that don't contribute to the nitrate test.

Obviously water changes are important in fishkeeping I will just have to decide how often but will play that one by ear


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

OVT said:


> This is actually a good question and I can argue both sides of the debate.
> 
> I believe that everything is situational and one size does not fit all.
> 
> ...


Oh I will do some tests and the TDS is a good idea and I have a meter so really easy to do although adding ferts would increase TDS so unsure how that would work although may well need a graph, that will show how stable things are PH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate and TDS I am only currently running the 6 foot tank and the 4 foot as I cut down but at one point I had 6 tanks 


I just wanted to get other opinions on how to judge when a water change is needed


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Although we use nitrates as a measure of pollution, nitrates are merely the conversion of ammonia. But nitrates keep bad company as there are all sorts of other pollutants resulting from organic decomposition that we can't/don't measure for. The question we can't really answer is "Do plants absorb or adsorb all organic pollutants?".

It goes almost without saying that fast growing plants* consume nutrients (aka pollutants) and convert it into plant tissue...that we [may] eventually remove in trimmings. What we don't know is if this is complete enough to limit or replace routine periodic water changes that ensure ongoing 'fresh' water. (*slow growing plants do little to purify water)

In theory, I believe that fast growing (especially floating) plants can reduce the frequency and/or volume of required periodic water changes, but not eliminate them. 
Like rain in nature, there really is no substitute for replacing [some] old tank water with fresh, pure water. The solution to pollution is dilution.

Footnote: We also need to consider our use of additives like ferts and consider that plants may not use all that we add. Also is the issue of required minerals that plants and fish use up from the water. Without a partial water change, how are these replenished?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

aqua360 said:


> Ok I can't believe I am about to ask this question and I am sure there will be a good reason but I have kept fish for over 20 years and always carried out weekly waterchanges but I recently (2 months ago) set up my first fully flanted tank now I cycled the tank the first month using fishfood in a stocking the tank was cycled long before I finished my cycling scedule when first few fish went it it had 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and about 10 nitrate but once I put the fish in I removed the stocking and just added the food the fish needed to eat.
> 
> The water readings are now 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and almost 0 nitrates it is certainly less than 5 so as i add ferts to the water that will put nutrients in the water as well as CO2 and the plants are using up the nitrate. I am struggling to come up with a reason to change the water. I have seen a nitrate test as a good indicator of when to change the water previously but is this is still true in a planted tank with added ferts and CO2 if not why not.
> 
> ...


every tank is different and will have different water change frequency.

there is a made up rule of "50% water change per week" that has been treated like the 11th commandment floating around.

many blindly follow it 

your question searches deeper for the true meaning of water change. I asked myself that same question after I skipped a week, and two, and three of water changes. When would I really need to change the water?

I pushed myself to 2-3 months with no water changes. I have heard examples of 6months, 9 months, a year with no water changes. wow. 

I found my equilibrium at 30% water change once a month. mainly it helped suppress algae growth. 

ultimately listen to the tank, and not a made up rule on the internets.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

I think the one thing missing in this great discussion is the fish.I personally do every other day on my discus tank and once a week on the planted tanks but for me it is the health of the fish more than the growth of the plants.I see a distinct improvement in the actions of the fish in my tanks after a water change so if your talking about a plant only or a very low stocked tank maybe you can go a lot longer without a water change.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Doogy262 said:


> I think the one thing missing in this great discussion is the fish.I personally do every other day on my discus tank and once a week on the planted tanks but for me it is the health of the fish more than the growth of the plants.I see a distinct improvement in the actions of the fish in my tanks after a water change so if your talking about a plant only or a very low stocked tank maybe you can go a lot longer without a water change.



I didn't start this discussion to get out of water changes it is part of the hobby I did leave the fish out deliberately as I wanted to create a discussion on water changes and what we take out or put in by conducting them. Fish regardless of type produce waste obviously a heavy stocked tank would have more waste so need more changes than a lower stocked one.

There are downsides to water changes they can be stressful on tank inhabitants particularly large ones or in the winter when it is harder to equalise the temp so should be conducted but not excessively every other day sounds a lot unless you are changing only a small amount like 10% as small and often is better than the same amount further apart but every tank is different 

The best way I ever found of doing them was a drip feed and waste pipe system as you never need to manually change the water, unfortunately, I do not have that on this tank but that is another discussion 

Balance is the best so watching the tank and adapting the routine as I see fit is what I will be what I do of course ferts would be a double-edged sword as they put in the tank various things but there is likely to be things in them that are not used and would build up without enough changes . 

Discus very obviously show when they are happy but many fish do not. So I really interested in the science of things as using nitrates to get an idea of how often a tank needs changing clearly isn't going to work on a fully planted tank as it does on one with no or minimal plants


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Having kept aquariums for 40 years, in my experience, the single best thing you can do for both fish and plants is regular water changes. This isn't something made up on the internet. It's just the plain truth. 

Doesn't matter if it's low light, high light, or no light. Water changes are your friend and can prevent a whole host of potential problems. 

The poster above who constantly advocates for very little or no water changes has killed more fish and grown more algae than seems possible. At one point his fish were literally jumping out of the tank to escape the filthy conditions. It's sad someone would try to persuade people to adopt a method that will almost certainly fail, or at minimum make their aquarium experience much more difficult and less rewarding.

Keep your water fresh and clean with regular water changes and your fish and plants will thank you.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Having kept aquariums for 40 years, in my experience, the single best thing you can do for both fish and plants is regular water changes. This isn't something made up on the internet. It's just the plain truth.
> 
> Doesn't matter if it's low light, high light, or no light. Water changes are your friend and can prevent a whole host of potential problems.
> 
> ...


I dumped 8 guppies into my newly started tank poisoned by high ammonia leached out of my ADA soil and they all jumped out over night

I thought it was because I didn't have a lid. I was less than 1 month into the hobby. I didn't know!

we all make mistakes, but we learn from them.

I don't appreciate you bashing on me all the time. can you please stop?


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2010)

At the Expense of the fish . Do some research . I will only do a fish less cycle now. It has taken 30+ days to complete . Its called patience . Not I dumped IntotheWRX into a lethal concoction of ammonia and nitrite he and he jumped out to his death . R.I.P.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Guys let's not turn this debate into a slanging match we all know water changes are important and for the record, no poster is likely to persuade me to do anything but I like to get opinions from others I have kept fish for 25 years and can't remember the last time I lost a fish. The usual reasons for changing water is to get rid of nitrate clearly if there is no nitrate or the tap water has a higher nitrate level than the tank there could be reasons to go longer between changed than a week (I have no idea what the nitrate level is in my tap water but would not be surprised if it is higher) but there could be reasons not to as well so it is an interesting subject to discuss

Now I realise some of you may do a thing one way and be convinced this is the correct way but I don't want posters bickering and ending up derailing what could be a interesting debate.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

aqua360 said:


> Now I realise some of you may do a thing one way and be convinced this is the correct way but I don't want posters bickering and ending up derailing what could be a interesting debate.


I see you are new here, and I believe your intentions are good.

What you may not know is that this topic typically does not end well. It's been brought up more times than you can imagine. A few years back there were some serious water change wars here. 

And the poster above spent so much time advocating that no one should ever change their water, that he was banned from this board for awhile. 

And I do agree it can be an interesting debate. The issue I have is that for the vast majority of people, water changes can be the difference between success and failure. 

And that is not to say there aren't special circumstances where one could be successful without water changes, but that is in a very unique environment, and not for the average hobbyist. 

Personally I have very rarely seen anyone be successful with a little or no water change schedule for any length of time. And most of the posters who advocate for it don't post any pictures of their tanks. You figure out why.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Having kept aquariums for 40 years, in my experience, the single best thing you can do for both fish and plants is regular water changes. This isn't something made up on the internet. It's just the plain truth.
> 
> Doesn't matter if it's low light, high light, or no light. Water changes are your friend and can prevent a whole host of potential problems.


If I understand the original context of the post, the question is whether established best practices still hold in the changing world. I welcome such topics as they drive us to retain what is good and replace what is outdated. The plain truth might be evident to some, but not the others: the Earth was flat not that long ago.

Alright, here is one of my threads on my definition of natural tanks. Hopefully a 3+ year life span of that tank is good enough. Post 11 is the start of my filtration musings.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...low-cube-riparium-bunch-fibs-honest-lies.html

Bump: Plus a picture showing that we can swing to the other extreme.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

aqua360 said:


> There are downsides to water changes they can be stressful on tank inhabitants particularly large ones or in the winter when it is harder to equalise the temp so should be conducted but not excessively every other day sounds a lot unless you are changing only a small amount like 10% as small and often is better than the same amount further apart but every tank is different


Actually decreasing the amount of pollution in a tank with a partial water change is not stressful - it's like a rain in nature. When I do water changes the fish seem invigorated. But yes, the change water needs to at least be close to tank water temperature.



aqua360 said:


> The best way I ever found of doing them was a drip feed and waste pipe system as you never need to manually change the water, unfortunately, I do not have that on this tank but that is another discussion


The trouble with a drip system is that some new water typically goes out with the old.
Drip systems somewhat flatten the bell shape curve of pollution buildup and slightly extend the duration before a necessary WC, but are not a good substitute long term.



aqua360 said:


> Balance is the best so watching the tank and adapting the routine as I see fit is what I will be what I do of course ferts would be a double-edged sword as they put in the tank various things but there is likely to be things in them that are not used and would build up without enough changes .


The trouble is we can't really see how increased pollution is affecting the long term health of the stock. Folks that push it think their fish are just fine and live an average life span...but what if with increased water changes where the water is more pure caused the same fish to live twice as long?!



aqua360 said:


> Discus very obviously show when they are happy but many fish do not. So I really interested in the science of things as using nitrates to get an idea of how often a tank needs changing clearly isn't going to work on a fully planted tank as it does on one with no or minimal plants


As I mentioned previously, nitrates is merely one aspect of the pollution. You don't startup a new tank with dirty water, so how best do we maintain the purest possible water?....the answer is a routine partial water change. The frequency and volume may be somewhat flexible, but frequent and more will always trump infrequent and less.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Greggz said:


> I see you are new here, and I believe your intentions are good.
> 
> What you may not know is that this topic typically does not end well. It's been brought up more times than you can imagine. A few years back there were some serious water change wars here.
> 
> ...


It is a shame there has been water change wars that can be a problem with internet forums, unfortunately. I would never say you never need to change the water that is a recipe for disaster and I agree the tank would need a very good balance to minimise them. Most aquariums are also overstocked due to modern equipment being very good the filter can often handle what is still an overstocked tank. Which obviously increases the need for water changed. Certainly, for the average hobbyist weekly water changes are essential. Particularly as many do not know how to read the tank. 

One of my pet hates is fish store employees giving bad advice in order to make sales and have much to their annoyance saved many a newbie money and problems by speaking to the customer or victim if I got the chance. The last one was filter sponges the employee was insisting new sponges were needed every month and new carbon every week I explained the use of carbon to them and why if they chose to use it, it needs replacing but recommended they just used another media instead and told them there was no need to replace the sponges at all unless they were falling apart they just needed cleaning in tank not tap water but would never recommend not doing partial water changes to anyone 

When I find a new LFS I go in and play the newbie just to see what advice they are giving out as it really gives you a good idea of how they behave (oscar be fine in a 10 gallon anyone) the LFS I most regularly spend money at and have for years is a small business but he basically told it like it is and did not try to sell any unnecessary products and said when stuff would not be worth buying. Over the years I have spent thousands there and even get a 10% discount on purchases because he gave me a card but I am getting off the subject.

It does seem unforseen chemical facts I was hoping to get from this discussion are not going to happen but as the subject has been raised I will just observe the tank and follow my gut to when changes are needed on this tank It would never be longer than a month but it may be above a week we will see what the tank tells me.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

AbbeysDad said:


> Actually decreasing the amount of pollution in a tank with a partial water change is not stressful - it's like a rain in nature. When I do water changes the fish seem invigorated. But yes, the change water needs to at least be close to tank water temperature.


Small ones aren't but big ones are as you get the water level low quickly small and often is better than big and further apart. 




AbbeysDad said:


> The trouble with a drip system is that some new water typically goes out with the old.
> Drip systems somewhat flatten the bell shape curve of pollution buildup and slightly extend the duration before a necessary WC, but are not a good substitute long term.


Not if done correctly they are normally done on big tanks and the drip is at the opersite side to the waste besides once the new water mixes with the old it is all the same it dilutes the pollution, it doesn't stay seperate from rest of the water. Which tank has the freshest water a drip system that slowly changes 100% of the water twice a week with no manual water changes or a tank that has 25% water manually changed twice a week 





AbbeysDad said:


> The trouble is we can't really see how increased pollution is affecting the long term health of the stock. Folks that push it think their fish are just fine and live an average life span...but what if with increased water changes where the water is more pure caused the same fish to live twice as long?


This is where you have to observe the tank, the fish and do water tests and ye you would be correct there is more to it than nitrates. The point is there is a point where more water changes don't do anything it is finding where that point is that is the question. Unfortunatly so far there has been little to help find that point.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

AbbeysDad said:


> Actually decreasing the amount of pollution in a tank with a partial water change is not stressful - it's like a rain in nature. When I do water changes the fish seem invigorated. *But yes, the change water needs to at least be close to tank water temperature.*


In many instances however the rainwater is actually cooler than the pond/lake/river water. In fact that cooler water can trigger some species to spawning.


Over the years I've experimented with different water change schedules on different tanks.
One I had on the back porch was a dirt tank planted with livebearers. Never did a change on it. The plants thrived for a while and slowly died. Started doing water changes and many came back.
I've tried weekly changes and that is what I currently do on many of the tanks I run. Fish are doing well. So are the plants. But I do at least a 50% change. 
In my breeding tanks I change at least once a week. Usually 2. 
In my fry tanks I change every day. I've experimented with frequency of changes on fry tanks and I have found over the years I can get fry to a sellable size faster with the daily changes.

Those are just my results, with the fish and plants I raise, and the well water I use. Your results may or may not be the same and no one answer is right for all of us.

I also do do a fish in cycle. When I actually cycle a tank that is. I've found with well water cycling a tank isn't all that necessary. I can, and do, literally fill a tank and add fish with no loss whatsoever. Turns out many in my area do the same thing.

Bump:


aqua360 said:


> Small ones aren't but big ones are as you get the water level low quickly small and often is better than big and further apart.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There are breeders down here that change 100% of the water once a week. In nature large water changes do happen.


Auto change systems are great. I am designing one to handle the tanks I am running. But there is no substitute for getting the muck out of the substrate with a gravel vac. If you have substrate. I have bare bottom so I do siphon the mulm once ea week by hand.

The only way you will ever find out the frequency and amount of water YOU need to change is to experiment and see. I know what works for me and for what I am trying to accomplish. It's also not about keeping the fish alive. It's about keeping the fish thriving. There is a difference.

If you just add tap water as make up water you are increasing your TDS. Maybe need to look at RO for make up water.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@GraphicGr8s: fancy to find you here 

@aqua360: give TDS a try. One of the biggest "contominants" some refer to are heavy metals. That stuff is not good for anyone. The good news is their accumulation do affect conductivity. If you are concerned with ferts affecting the reading, test right before and right after and you have your fudge factor. I am sure you will find your own "trigger" value. Mine is usually a percentage difference from TDS in my tap.

Happy fishing.

Bump: yes, organics will also affect TDS, but by a relatively smaller factor. And when it comes to organics the circle of life kicks in - recycle. If your plants cannot keep organics constant then re-evaluate the tank.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

OVT said:


> @*GraphicGr8s*: fancy to find you here
> 
> @*aqua360*: give TDS a try. One of the biggest "contominants" some refer to are heavy metals. That stuff is not good for anyone. The good news is their accumulation do affect conductivity. If you are concerned with ferts affecting the reading, test right before and right after and you have your fudge factor. I am sure you will find your own "trigger" value. Mine is usually a percentage difference from TDS in my tap.
> 
> ...


Yes I think I am going to do just that it will probably need new filters soon if not now but I have a RO unit if I feel the need to use it as I used it when I had my reef tank but unfortunatly major life changes meant I had to get rid of that and only now am I adding a second tank again but have no plans to get to as many as 6 again I will probably end up with a third in the not too distant future as I am quite fancying a shimp tank and have the perfect tank in storage but we will see


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

To clear up the rumors about me:
I am not advocating little to no water changes
I think water changes is a great benefit to keeping a healthy tank
I'm 8 years old

weekly water changes routine is off the charts overkill. less water changes has been proven to work


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

IntotheWRX said:


> To clear up the rumors about me:
> I am not advocating little to no water changes
> I think water changes is a great benefit to keeping a healthy tank
> I'm 8 years old
> ...


So your 8 years old and you know more than all the top people in the planted tank space? Very impressive!


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> So your 8 years old and you know more than all the top people in the planted tank space? Very impressive!


flexing # of years in the game is empty talk. walk the walk.

your sarcasm is too strong


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

IntotheWRX said:


> flexing # of years in the game is empty talk. walk the walk.
> 
> your sarcasm is too strong


I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about professionals that are involved with planted tanks 24/7 for their livelihood.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> I'm not talking about myself. I'm talking about professionals that are involved with planted tanks 24/7 for their livelihood.


I was talking about Greg flexing his 40years of experience

He would make fun of a kid for falling while trying to learn how to ride a bike. pro with a disgusting ego.


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## Functional (Jan 19, 2018)

IntotheWRX said:


> I was talking about Greg flexing his 40years of experience
> 
> He would make fun of a kid for falling while trying to learn how to ride a bike. pro with a disgusting ego.


hes making fun of the kid whos falling that gets up and tries to teach someone else to ride the bike before learning themselves. Getting the experience means you are going to fall eventually...just dont go around toting you know how to do things when you are still failing. Thats what people are giving you a hard time about. 



On topic...

Every tank is different as its been said. Depends on size, filtration, stocking levels, existing issues with the tank (alge, recent plant die off, etc.). I do a 30-50% water change depending on the tank and its condition on average. I dont freak out however if I miss a week's change and I just resume my procedure the following week's cycle. As with nature...weather and other conditions can flex with uncertainty and one week skip isnt unreasonable in my opinion as long as it isnt habitual. 

I would like to hear from the people who do only RODI replacement instead of mixing with tap. If we are saying water changes replenish some minerals we cant dose for than how are RODI only replacement guys/gals having success? I still believe water changes are necessary for fish waste and mulm removal but this interests me.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Functional said:


> hes making fun of the kid whos falling that gets up and tries to teach someone else to ride the bike before learning themselves. Getting the experience means you are going to fall eventually...just dont go around toting you know how to do things when you are still failing. Thats what people are giving you a hard time about.


Nicely put. 

And if anyone believes this guy is 8 years old, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.:grin2:

Actually when he jumped into the forum here a while back, he jumped into 20 threads a day to tell everyone that if you performed a water change, you simply didn't know what you were doing. Basically screamed that anyone who changed their water was an idiot. And he was only six years old then!!:wink2:

For what it's worth, I change 70% per week. And I know many others who I consider to be very successful that perform large changes as well. There is no such thing as too big a water change. It's simply the easiest and best thing you can do for your tank. 

And I understand, there are exceptions, no doubt about it. But that is highly specialized situation and rare. And really, that is a good discussion, but not many create that environment. For most people here, they will end up with nothing but dead fish, dead plants, and an algae farm.


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## SERRCH (Mar 27, 2016)

: Let me go get the Popcorns : 
[emoji897] 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

SERRCH said:


> : Let me go get the Popcorns :
> [emoji897]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'll get the beer...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Doogy262 said:


> I'll get the beer...


I prefer Guiness if your bringing


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## OneLongSundayAfternoon (Mar 26, 2018)

water changes shouldn't follow a clock or a calendar hanging on your wall. 

water changes is done by listening to the health of your tank.

the more balanced it is, the less you will need to change water.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> I prefer Guiness if your bringing


Got you covered :laugh2:


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

The best metaphor I can think of for this are cars and oil changes.

The vehicle manufacturer has a recommended oil change interval for your car (let's ignore the people who will yell that this is for them to make money). This was determined based on the type of engine, typical driving and test results. Sure, you can stretch out the oil change interval a little beyond what is recommended, but it is not advisable and there isn't any benefit to doing so for the health of your car. The only advantages to extending the interval would be your time, wallet and the environmental impact.

Sure, there are people who will go way beyond the recommended interval and will not suffer any issues. Others may have made modifications to allow them to do so (e.g. dual bypass filters). However, the majority that really push the oil change interval are going to start to have problems with their vehicle that are directly related to not following the recommended maintenance.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Functional said:


> I would like to hear from the people who do only RODI replacement instead of mixing with tap. If we are saying water changes replenish some minerals we cant dose for than how are RODI only replacement guys/gals having success? I still believe water changes are necessary for fish waste and mulm removal but this interests me.


Those of us that keep certain shrimp species use r/o exclusively. We have to re-mineralize with a GH booster (typically SS GH+) that puts back these minerals in correct proportions to suit the species. Some discus breeders will also use r/o water with a GH booster that suits them. Plants aren't usually the priority in such tanks, though. For the average planted tank, a mixture of tap and r/o is often used in hard water situations.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Doogy262 said:


> Got you covered :laugh2:


me too?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

sdwindansea said:


> The best metaphor I can think of for this are cars and oil changes.
> 
> The vehicle manufacturer has a recommended oil change interval for your car (let's ignore the people who will yell that this is for them to make money). This was determined based on the type of engine, typical driving and test results. Sure, you can stretch out the oil change interval a little beyond what is recommended, but it is not advisable and there isn't any benefit to doing so for the health of your car. The only advantages to extending the interval would be your time, wallet and the environmental impact.
> 
> Sure, there are people who will go way beyond the recommended interval and will not suffer any issues. Others may have made modifications to allow them to do so (e.g. dual bypass filters). However, the majority that really push the oil change interval are going to start to have problems with thdeir vehicle that are directly related to not following the recommended maintenance.


You must have been reading my thoughts.

There is another reason why this topic is of greater interest to me: some years back I was a part of a bid on a government R&D contract. The project was from DOD and their question was: how do we know when to change oil in helicopters? Obviously, not at the same level of urgency as doing water changes. The ability of doing "just in time" oil changes is of enormous economic and environmental and strategic importance.

Closer to home, our other projects involved research on "just in time" maintenance of HVAC and water purification towers, detection of free chlorine in public pools, and so on.

To me, the whole area of water, liquids, and solids metrology is totally facinating.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

It has been a long time since I've logged in. Now I remember why. Oiy!

I'll let the ages of my fish tell the story of whether water changes are good thing or nah.

My panda cory going on 9 years old. The four Bleeding Heart Tetras I have left are going on 8 years old and the German Blue Ram that I was told repeatedly around here wouldn't live longer than a few weeks is going 3 years old, I believe. 

I use remineralized RO water as my tap water is toxic. Twice a month the tank gets a 1/3 water change. Twice a month the tank gets a 50%. I have a 40 breeder if that matters. I don't bother with ferts and such any more. I keep easy plants and once these all these old timers go, I'm hanging up my proverbial hat to the hobby. I digress.

Water changes are a good thing.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Water change wars, how could I have missed this.>
Rock throwing yet, don't have the energy to read it all.:grin2:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> It has been a long time since I've logged in. Now I remember why. Oiy!


Nice to see you make an appearance.

I was wondering how things were in the world of Smooch!!:grin2:

Whatever you do, don't look up the custom micro thread......might make your head explode!

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> Water change wars, how could I have missed this.>
> Rock throwing yet, don't have the energy to read it all.:grin2:


LOL MG!

Don't blame you for not diving in...........and I'm guessing you might have some PTSD from the micro tox wars!!!:wink2:


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## SERRCH (Mar 27, 2016)

Doing it by “listening” the aquarium or by schedule they both work (that’s a fact) it’s all depending on what type of person you are.. 
and the tank you want 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Please excuse me as I go do a water change!


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

AbbeysDad said:


> Please excuse me as I go do a water change!


Please excuse me while I don't do a WC ! :grin2:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Help Wanted: Water Changer.

Pay in plants


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Special case here, "Phishless"


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

IntotheWRX said:


> me too?


I've got you Jeff, but soda only. No beers for an 8 year old. Off topic but I'm curious, in an early post you mentioned scheduling your lights around your job, what kind of work did you do as a 6 year old?


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

Tank is stocked with many platties (started with 5 they breed like nuts), mylasian rainbow shrimp(again nuts breeding), a three striped mud turtle, and some ottos. Water changes happen 2-4 times a year. Tank gets turned over twice a year like a pond via temp and most gunk gets skimmed off the top. The stock was very specific with this plan in mind (my other tanks have much more frequent wc). Normal maint is topping off the water, trimming back plants and stock, cleaning the canaster filter, and changing my co2 roughly yearly. Most people who go with minimal wc wont post a pic of the tank  this has been going for about 6 years now (took two to stabilize the Eco system). It's not common and I wouldn't recommend it to a noobie but if you work to keep the system balanced in inport and export water changes could become minimal.








Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

I hate to do this but the something doesn't seem right with the above post. This user joined today and this is their very first post...


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

sdwindansea said:


> I hate to do this but the something doesn't seem right with the above post. This user joined today and this is their very first post...


Yepp, I'm on RC and the post popped in taptalk cus of the cross reference or something. Been watching the form for years on and off and never joined. Lol, it's cool doubt if you want but it's possible 

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## sdwindansea (Oct 28, 2016)

dracoviridiz said:


> Yepp, I'm on RC and the post popped in taptalk cus of the cross reference or something. Been watching the form for years on and off and never joined. Lol, it's cool doubt if you want but it's possible
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


Thanks for the explanation and that does make sense. I also never stated it wasn't possible, just that the timing seemed strange. However, you obviously feel strongly about this and I completely understand why this thread would give you the incentive to join the forum and make your first post.

On a separate note, that is a really interesting/cool mix of livestock. Great looking tank as well.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

sdwindansea said:


> Thanks for the explanation and that does make sense. I also never stated it wasn't possible, just that the timing seemed strange. However, you obviously feel strongly about this and I completely understand why this thread would give you the incentive to join the forum and make your first post.
> 
> On a separate note, that is a really interesting/cool mix of livestock. Great looking tank as well.


I understand, I know it's fishy  
That tank is more of the exception thank the rule type thing in my book tho. The stock was chosen based on the turtle truning over the substrate and scavengering anything dead, the fish mostly to fert the plants and vice versa, and the shrimp cleaning waste to more usable plant food and algae. Here's my axi tank that gets wc 2x a week. The funny thing is that I honestly see both sides of the "debate" based on stock and have trouble accepting one hard fast rule. The no/ low wc side usually won't step up and post pics as proof though. I think it's more about really watching and listening to your tank, and when in doubt wc lol.








Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## Flying_Rasbora (Dec 1, 2017)

Water changes are good.
Water changes are bad.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Greggz said:


> Nice to see you make an appearance.
> 
> I was wondering how things were in the world of Smooch!!:grin2:
> 
> Whatever you do, don't look up the custom micro thread......might make your head explode!


Nice to see you as well. Not much has changed in my world. 

I'm not jumping back on the drama-filled bandwagon. If people want to stomp their feet, hold their breath or act like a screaming banshee over ferts, substrate, ect... all the more power to them. I don't listen to it.

That being said, I still find it ironic that people get into this hobby for the chill factor, but yet, there is always somebody waiting to latch onto a neck of a unsuspecting victim. Somethings are meant to remain a mystery I suppose.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> That being said, I still find it ironic that people get into this hobby for the chill factor, but yet, there is always somebody waiting to latch onto a neck of a unsuspecting victim. Somethings are meant to remain a mystery I suppose.


All in all, I'd say this board is very civil. 

Sure, once in a while you have a little skirmish. It's bound to happen. And healthy debate can be good. 

Moderators do a nice job, and if someone goes nuts they get suspended or banned. 

But for me, the vast majority of people here are pleasant, considerate, encouraging and participate for the common good of the hobby. IMO, the positive far, far outweighs the negative.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Talk about PTSD. _Trying_ to stay on the sidelines for this one.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> Talk about PTSD. _Trying_ to stay on the sidelines for this one.


I was wondering when you would show up.

Your stamina must be down!!>


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

All in all discussion/debate is a great thing. I started in the hobby in the 60's. [Obviously] there was no internet and fish related forums. It was the days of metaframe tanks and there was no such thing as power filters....HOB or canister. Bubble up, box and UGF's ruled the day. What [often misleading] info you got at the fish store, you got from books. Most of us found our own way, knowing little or nothing about beneficial bacteria and the nitrogen cycle, etc.....etc. If/when we succeeded it was likely in spite of ourselves. I expect a lot more fish were tortured and the turn over in the hobby was likely much greater.
So discuss and debate on as long as we're kind....as forums like this not only get members to share information, but get some to think [more] about how they manage their tanks. 

Tank on,
-Mike


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Greggz said:


> ...
> Your stamina must be down!!>


Yes it is. Fighting extremists on multiple fronts for the benefit of most aquarists. :grin2:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

And we hoped you were busy with water changes.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Kubla said:


> I've got you Jeff, but soda only. No beers for an 8 year old. Off topic but I'm curious, in an early post you mentioned scheduling your lights around your job, what kind of work did you do as a 6 year old?


I am a pianist. Performing during lunches at the Fairmont Hotel in San Francisco. Bay Area represent.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

OVT said:


> And we hoped you were busy with water changes.


Then again, you can lead a horse to drink, but you can't make him water! :wink2:


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

To Greg,

Here is a picture of my 2yr old tank from 2 months ago. Water changes were happening about 30% (whatever I can fit into my bucket) once a month or so.

What prompts me is to remove the algae spores and give my tank a good beneficial refresh.

What killed my tank was Java moss infesting every inch and corner of my tank. I stopped trimming, battling the moss and caring for my tank for the past year. 

But I'll be back with a new build on my 9th birthday.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OVT said:


> And we hoped you were busy with water changes.


Multi tasking


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

The #1 thing that keeps our tanks healthy is stability. The #1 thing that can guarantee stability is water changes.

All anecdotal evidence aside (as valid as some of it may be), I don't think this is debatable. Sure, you may be able to get away with not doing water changes for extended periods, and there are exceptional situations where people are on wells and their tap water parameters change given the season, but those are exceptions, and not the rule. Why risk your tank's health by not doing water changes?

The biggest thing that has made my life easier in the realm of water changes is purchasing a Python. I actually look forward to water change day, and it has made doing my 50% weekly change a breeze.

If you don't have one already, seriously consider purchasing a Python. You'll be glad you did.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

IntotheWRX said:


> ...
> 
> But I'll be back with a new build on my 9th birthday.


Drop the act. Everyone who's been here a while knows its not true. I'm pretty sure in other threads you talked about your car and other adult things. I don't know too many 8 year old kids that are into rimless tanks with stainless steel lily pipes and diffusers.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> I prefer Guiness if your bringing


I knew I liked you for a good reason. lol


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Drop the act. Everyone who's been here a while knows its not true. I'm pretty sure in other threads you talked about your car and other adult things. I don't know too many 8 year old kids that are into rimless tanks with stainless steel lily pipes and diffusers.


oops i forgot a 6. On my 69th birthday I will do something big



varanidguy said:


> I knew I liked you for a good reason. lol


:wink2::x


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...how-many-water-changes-necessary-depends.html


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

Been running for 4 months, haven't done a single waterchange so far, I simply top it off once a week. Tank has a pair of GBR that spawn every 2 weeks approximately, 5 neon tetras and 5 otos. Had a bit of algae because the tank got natural sunlight I think, but apart from that everything has been running just fine.

I used to do regular water changes on my previous tanks, but I took a lazy approach with this one and haven't seen any negative results so far.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Pretty accurate representation of the WC debate


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

UbbeDall said:


> I used to do regular water changes on my previous tanks, but I took a lazy approach with this one and haven't seen any negative results so far.


once was blind, but now can see


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I know some folks who seldom change the oil in their car but it keeps running. Go ahead, skip an oil change. You won't notice anything different. Skip 2 or 3, your car will keep running the same. Oil changes are way overrated! They've gone over a year like this and the car still sounds the same. Nothing negative to note. I'm stopping oil changes and will just pay attention to how my car is running and change oil when I think it's really needed. Who wants to join me? It's better for the environment too!


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

Kubla, surely you understand that's a false equivalence?

Pretty poor argumentation if you ask me :/


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Kubla said:


> I know some folks who seldom change the oil in their car but it keeps running. Go ahead, skip an oil change. You won't notice anything different. Skip 2 or 3, your car will keep running the same. Oil changes are way overrated! They've gone over a year like this and the car still sounds the same. Nothing negative to note. I'm stopping oil changes and will just pay attention to how my car is running and change oil when I think it's really needed. Who wants to join me? It's better for the environment too!


That’s right, these compounds need to be periodically replenished with water changes. This is usual North American tap, … thirsty?

Aluminum, fluoride, chlorine, chloramine, arsenic, Cyanide, lead, mercury, sodium, thallium, tin, uranium, trihalomethane, bromodichloromethane, bromoform, chloroform, dibromochloromethane, haloacetic acids, bromoacetic acid, bromochloroacetic acid, chloroacetic acid, dibromoacetic acid, dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid, trichloropropanone, dichloropropanone, bromate, bromochloroacetinitrile, chloropicrin, dibromoacetonitrile, dichloroacetonitrile, trichloroacetonitrile, dichloroethylene, dichlorobenzene, dichloroethene, tetrachlorophenol, benzene, benzopyrene, chlorobenzene, cloromethane, ethylbenzene, xylene, pentachlorophenol, tetrachloroethylene, toluene, pesticides, 2,4-D, alachlor, atrazine, azinphos methyl, bromoxinyl, carbaryl, carbafuran, chlorpyrifos, diazinon, dicamba, diclofopmethyl, dimethoate, diquat, diuron, glyphosate, malathion, methylchlorophenoxyacetic acid, metolachlor, metribuzin, paraquat, PCB, phorate, picloram, prometryne, simazine, terbufos, triallate, trifluralin, tritium radioactive, cesium-134 radiation, cesium-137 radiation, cobalt-60 radiation, iodine-131 radiation, … and more goodies.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Edward said:


> That’s right, these compounds need to be periodically replenished with water changes. This is usual North American tap, … thirsty?
> 
> Aluminum, fluoride, chlorine, chloramine, arsenic, Cyanide, lead, mercury, sodium, thallium, tin, uranium, trihalomethane, bromodichloromethane, bromoform, chloroform, dibromochloromethane, haloacetic acids, bromoacetic acid, bromochloroacetic acid, chloroacetic acid, dibromoacetic acid, dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid, trichloropropanone, dichloropropanone, bromate, bromochloroacetinitrile, chloropicrin, dibromoacetonitrile, dichloroacetonitrile, trichloroacetonitrile, dichloroethylene, dichlorobenzene, dichloroethene, tetrachlorophenol, benzene, benzopyrene, chlorobenzene, cloromethane, ethylbenzene, xylene, pentachlorophenol, tetrachloroethylene, toluene, pesticides, 2,4-D, alachlor, atrazine, azinphos methyl, bromoxinyl, carbaryl, carbafuran, chlorpyrifos, diazinon, dicamba, diclofopmethyl, dimethoate, diquat, diuron, glyphosate, malathion, methylchlorophenoxyacetic acid, metolachlor, metribuzin, paraquat, PCB, phorate, picloram, prometryne, simazine, terbufos, triallate, trifluralin, tritium radioactive, cesium-134 radiation, cesium-137 radiation, cobalt-60 radiation, iodine-131 radiation, … and more goodies.


thirsty for my soda


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

IntotheWRX said:


> oops i forgot a 6. On my 69th birthday I will do something big


Man, until now you were 8 and all were making fun of you about how you can't get any experience at that age and so on ... Now if you say you are 68 they will make fun of you and say you are too old, vision blurring, unable to lift up buckets and so on... you can never win.... If you say you have an art degree, you know nothing about how plants grow. If you have a plant science degree, you are just a horticulturist, no way your aquascapes are worth looking at... Forever unfit for a license to hold a planted tank (at least from this site):frown2: 

I had aquariums with weekly water changes, I also had tanks with a water change every 6 months or more which did great. They looked presentable, fish healthy, plants healthy ... all of them which were unsuited for this environment died/melted pretty fast. In most of these tanks, weekly water changes and more maintenance would have made them look a lot better and enabled me more diversity in plant selection. 

We can debate all we want, end result is you will have an aquarium adapted to your life style. Want a dutch layout, better have the scissors ready daily and short sleeves. Want a tank for the kids, get a big java fern, java moss and bunch of danios or other hardy fish. Are you serious about the hobby and just starting? Do those water changes. 

I see this topic at least 2x per month but nobody asks if they should feed their fish. If you feel you created a natural ecosystem in your tank that does not need your intervention with water changes, please also ask yourself if you should feed your fish and other creatures. There is nothing natural about a hand coming from the sky and adding stuff to your ecosystem. 

also common people, use the SEARCH function... you will get 100x of threads like this , same questions, same comments, same wars... no new proper explanation of how or why

bump


Edward said:


> That’s right, these compounds need to be periodically replenished with water changes. This is usual North American tap, … thirsty?
> 
> Aluminum, fluoride, chlorine, chloramine, arsenic, Cyanide, lead, mercury, sodium, thallium, tin, uranium, trihalomethane, bromodichloromethane, bromoform, chloroform, dibromochloromethane, haloacetic acids, bromoacetic acid, bromochloroacetic acid, chloroacetic acid, dibromoacetic acid, dichloroacetic acid, trichloroacetic acid, trichloropropanone, dichloropropanone, bromate, bromochloroacetinitrile, chloropicrin, dibromoacetonitrile, dichloroacetonitrile, trichloroacetonitrile, dichloroethylene, dichlorobenzene, dichloroethene, tetrachlorophenol, benzene, benzopyrene, chlorobenzene, cloromethane, ethylbenzene, xylene, pentachlorophenol, tetrachloroethylene, toluene, pesticides, 2,4-D, alachlor, atrazine, azinphos methyl, bromoxinyl, carbaryl, carbafuran, chlorpyrifos, diazinon, dicamba, diclofopmethyl, dimethoate, diquat, diuron, glyphosate, malathion, methylchlorophenoxyacetic acid, metolachlor, metribuzin, paraquat, PCB, phorate, picloram, prometryne, simazine, terbufos, triallate, trifluralin, tritium radioactive, cesium-134 radiation, cesium-137 radiation, cobalt-60 radiation, iodine-131 radiation, … and more goodies.


forgot H2O and also OMG will somebody please think of the children.... Water changes are scam originating from big water companies and chain FS.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

Daily 25% water changes occuring at the moment 😉

Emergency cycling of a 10g as my Spec V seeps water from a seam.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

dukydaf said:


> Man, until now you were 8 and all were making fun of you about how you can't get any experience at that age and so on ... Now if you say you are 68 they will make fun of you and say you are too old, vision blurring, unable to lift up buckets and so on... you can never win.... If you say you have an art degree, you know nothing about how plants grow. If you have a plant science degree, you are just a horticulturist, no way your aquascapes are worth looking at... Forever unfit for a license to hold a planted tank (at least from this site):frown2:


I must have missed something. All I saw was a couple posts questioning his actual age after he lied about it. Who made fun of his age? Where did all this other ridicule take place at?


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

dukydaf said:


> I see this topic at least 2x per month but nobody asks if they should feed their fish. If you feel you created a natural ecosystem in your tank that does not need your intervention with water changes, please also ask yourself if you should feed your fish and other creatures. There is nothing natural about a hand coming from the sky and adding stuff to your ecosystem.


How does needing to feed your fish equate to needing to do regular water changes? I don't think anybody here thinks they created a 1:1 replica of nature where they don't need to feed or do anything at all.

By your logic in another aquarium that is filled with snails that feed the pufferfish you have in there, should you then also stop changing water because you don't need to add food?

These false equivalences aren't helping anybody.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This forum has finally convinced me to change my practces: I am stopping oil changes in all of my tanks right now.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

UbbeDall said:


> How does needing to feed your fish equate to needing to do regular water changes? I don't think anybody here thinks they created a 1:1 replica of nature where they don't need to feed or do anything at all. By your logic in another aquarium that is filled with snails that feed the pufferfish you have in there, should you then also stop changing water because you don't need to add food?


You'll need to ask the members who say they created "ecosystems" or their aquariums are "similar to nature" or that what happens in nature is expected to happen in our aquariums. If you take your average aquarium and average freshwater fish density in nature you are likely to end up with 0 fish in that aquarium. I agree it is not a 1:1 replica, ergo it is a 1:0 replica. That means it is an artificial human created environment and that the human needs to start taking responsibility for what happens inside. Sitting there and waiting for nature to get rid of all organic waste in an artificial environment is not being responsible.




Kubla said:


> I must have missed something. All I saw was a couple posts questioning his actual age after he lied about it. Who made fun of his age? Where did all this other ridicule take place at?


Here's some of the forum love, and keep in mind some posts were likely already removed/edited at this point. And what if he was 6 or 8 ? Have you never witnessed a young lad starting to say big words at a table full of adults willing to impress them ? Would one behave the same as below ?



houseofcards said:


> I don't know too many 8 year old kids that are into rimless tanks with stainless steel lily pipes and diffusers.





Kubla said:


> in an early post you mentioned scheduling your lights around your job, what kind of work did you do as a 6 year old?





houseofcards said:


> So your 8 years old and you know more than all the top people in the planted tank space? Very impressive!





Functional said:


> hes making fun of the kid whos falling that gets up ...just dont go around toting you know how to do things when you are still failing.





Greggz said:


> Nicely put. //---to the above ----//
> 
> And if anyone believes this guy is 8 years old, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you.:grin2:
> ... you simply didn't know what you were doing. Basically screamed that anyone who changed their water was an idiot. And he was only six years old then!!:wink2:


There is this thing called ageism and it seems to be abundant, next to all other types of discrimination.

I say encourage people who are young so our hobby has a future. Educate people who are just starting so they have a better experience. 

Love and light and green thumbs :bounce:


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## UbbeDall (Jun 24, 2016)

dukydaf said:


> I agree it is not a 1:1 replica, ergo it is a 1:0 replica. That means it is an artificial human created environment and that the human needs to start taking responsibility for what happens inside.


That's just not true. While it's not a perfect replication, we can replicate some of the processes that occur in nature within our aquariums as well; such as establishing a nitrogen cycle. Taking responsibility for what happens within the aquarium means we should ensure the inhabitants are thriving, that doesn't necessarily mean manually changing every drop of water is better than ensuring good water chemistry by cultivating denitrifying bacteria or other biological processes.

It's clearly not as black/white as you try to make it. Because something is not a 1:1 replica doesn't mean it is necessarily a "1:0" replica.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

dukydaf said:


> … That means it is an artificial human created environment and that the human needs to start taking responsibility for what happens inside. Sitting there and waiting for nature to get rid of all organic waste in an artificial environment is not being responsible.


 Even though, dumping half of aquarium water every week was nonexistent in the past until Overdose-Flush-&-Repeat system was introduced, and numerous successful pictures were posted, you still refusing to accept its existence. What can change your mind?

Bump:


dukydaf said:


> Water changes are scam originating from big water companies and chain FS.


 Agreed, finally we are getting somewhere.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

UbbeDall said:


> That's just not true. While it's not a perfect replication, we can replicate some of the processes that occur in nature
> 
> It's clearly not as black/white as you try to make it. Because something is not a 1:1 replica doesn't mean it is necessarily a "1:0" replica.


Sure it is, when we talk about natural and artificial. If there is human intervention required, it is no longer natural. By your logic a park is a natural ecosystem because grass makes photosynthesis there. 

Yeast digesting carbohydrate is natural for yeast. Making bread and bear for example is not a natural process although in these processes yeast does what is natural for it.

Nitrifying bacteria do what is natural to them converting NH4 to NO2 and NO3. But just like in bread you control how.much sugar is added and how hot the mix is, in aquariums you control how much food you add, how many fish and algae are present etc.

Just because pieces of the system are similar to nature does not make the overall system / ecosystem natural.


Bump:


Edward said:


> its existence. What can change your mind?.


Don't really get what you mean with "its". Lots of things exist but are not optimal. Many of the aquariums will do a lot better with frequent water changes. No need to do them weekly, you can do them daily, every 3, 5, 10... days

I am in the hobby before EI was formalized and even then planted aquariums did better with wc, not even saying anything about fish only tanks. Discus keepers seem to get the idea...

Always open to change my mind. Same method as I stated I need with microtox, provide well documented experiment and control aquariums covering many fish and plant types with several replicates. Also control for bias by randomization and blinding at least. Quantifiable data is better but a predefined index of fish and plant health may do.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

dukydaf said:


> Nitrifying bacteria do what is natural to them converting NH4 to NO2 and NO3. But just like in bread you control how.much sugar is added and how hot the mix is, in aquariums you control how much food you add, how many fish and algae are present etc.


Just as we create proper conditions for nitrifying bacteria to do its job, we can create proper conditions for organics crunching bacteria. Why are you discriminating against those bacterial strains?

Bump:


dukydaf said:


> Don't really get what you mean with "its". Lots of things exist but are not optimal. Many of the aquariums will do a lot better with frequent water changes.


 You are saying many, many do better. Yes many do better. But there are also many who do worse and we should be finding the reasons why, and not dismissing it as nonsense.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Edward said:


> . Why are you discriminating against those bacterial strains?


Not mentioning is not really discrimination and also not disproving the point that the whole system is still artificial. 

Regarding the breakdown of organics... 

Because our aquariums are not big/old enough to provide the variety of niches required by those bacteria. Also most people do not want to allow such environments in our aquariums.

In natural lakes most organic matter settles at the bottom of the lake and is broken down under anaerobic conditions. Obligate anaerobes are required and you mostly find them in more than 15cm deep layers full of organic debris. Lookup how many "hands" are needed to make PO4 available for plants again and where actual field research located these changes taking place. Some organics also get degraded by the large amount of UV radiation received from the big bulb. A lot of this UV will be removed by glass so even for aquariums sitting in front of the window you will not get the legit thing. 

Even with all the decomposition available, lakes age. They start fresh, become productive, then they naturally get increasingly trophic, until they fill up with soil becoming marshes and then just land. 

Many natural environments also have some cyclic changes be they temperature or precipitation or both. This creates even more diversity of niches impossible to recreate in an aquarium with good accuracy, let alone without human intervention

Let's stop the pretense that our aquariums are "nature like". I can agree that they are cool, they look nice, they relax and lift are spirits.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

UbbeDall said:


> Been running for 4 months, haven't done a single waterchange so far, I simply top it off once a week. Tank has a pair of GBR that spawn every 2 weeks approximately, 5 neon tetras and 5 otos. Had a bit of algae because the tank got natural sunlight I think, but apart from that everything has been running just fine.
> 
> I used to do regular water changes on my previous tanks, but I took a lazy approach with this one and haven't seen any negative results so far.


I think you and the other poster above have illustrated very well what one might expect from a no/little water change tank. 

Thanks for sharing.

It occurs to me that water changes should probably be discussed in the context of one's goals.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

dukydaf said:


> ...
> Here's some of the forum love, and keep in mind some posts were likely already removed/edited at this point. And what if he was 6 or 8 ? Have you never witnessed a young lad starting to say big words at a table full of adults willing to impress them ? Would one behave the same as below ?
> 
> There is this thing called ageism and it seems to be abundant, next to all other types of discrimination.
> ...


i think your being a little to righteous here and lending unnecessary credence to this side show. Everyone know he's not 8 and the statements are simply to lend concrete evidence that we're onto it. If he was truly 8 and trying to create an aquascape he would have my unwavering support. Certainly it would be a rarity that someone that young would be into it and the aesthetics at the age and this is NOT one of those cases.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

dukydaf said:


> …


I am not interested in lakes age, marshes and land. I want to know why there are successful aquariums without dumping half water every week. You can also see the pictures. So, can you tell why it works?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> I am not interested in lakes age, marshes and land. I want to know why there are successful aquariums without dumping half water every week. You can also see the pictures. So, can you tell why it works?


Edward I have a question for you, and I hope you take it in the spirit that it is being asked.

Because I genuinely don't know the answer, and am genuinely curious.

Do you currently keep a planted tank? Do you have a journal somewhere? I've seriously always wanted to know.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

I can tell you why mine worked when and for reasons could not keep my maintenance on them ...keep in mind before these tanks were high tech and growing many species of stems. I was also breeding and selling fish like angelfish, betta, rare catfish and other more common fish. So not a beginner. 

Everything that could not adapt to the no water change conditions died, slower or faster but they died. Most of the stem plants and most of the fish. 

What was left experienced very slow rates of growth and stunted growth in the fish, this even with large filtration capacity.

Any easy stem plant that survived after 3 years of about 50% wc every 6 months, survived because it was able to grow emersed. Algae was present in good quantities but could be easily hidden from view and consisted mostly of hair algae.

What survived the 3 year experience well: crypts (not all), Echinodorus (not all), sagitaria, vallisneria, bacopa, ludwigia repens, Marsilea, Java fern, Java moss and Anubis... why so many examples here and elsewhere have pretty similar plants on display?

Fish: danios, guppy, some catfish, sae.

So you see, photos don't tell a lot of the story behind the tank. How many plants melted and fish died.

In general low light, rich substrate, high filtration capacity, no CO2 very hardy plants and fish will make longer intervals between wc possible. It's not really that it works, you just slow down the tank's death to the point you get bored of it before it reaches it's ultimate conclusion.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

So, I'm also in the middle of building a pond in my backyard, it will be 1000gal give or take. This will be lined filtered and stocked with Flora and fauna. Kind of a big "tank" with a natural lighting system. Quite a few people seem to like the 10% minimum water change once a week (just what I've noticed). 
For those of you advocating this type of regiment, what would you recommend? 100gal once a week?
Not busting butt here, this is an honest question of how you would approach something beyond a "normal" tank size because I know what I plan on and it doesn't fit for the die hard water changers on here.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Greggz said:


> Edward I have a question for you, and I hope you take it in the spirit that it is being asked.
> 
> Because I genuinely don't know the answer, and am genuinely curious.
> 
> Do you currently keep a planted tank? Do you have a journal somewhere? I've seriously always wanted to know.


 Hi Greggz
I have 13 aquariums and currently use 9 of them. And I don’t do aquascaping or design, no journals, not in my interest. I enjoy varying techniques of growing submerged and emersed plants. My aquariums have in-wall build water distribution and water change piping with electronic controls and CO2 network. Also, few beer kegs connected to the same CO2 system.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Edward said:


> Hi Greggz
> I have 13 aquariums and currently use 9 of them. And I don’t do aquascaping or design, no journals, not in my interest. I enjoy varying techniques of growing submerged and emersed plants. My aquariums have in-wall build water distribution and water change piping with electronic controls and CO2 network. Also, few beer kegs connected to the same CO2 system.


Edward thanks I appreciate that. 

Like I said, I have been curious. 

I always enjoy seeing the engineering that goes into an aquarium(s) set up. Sounds like yours is quite involved. You should post something on it sometime.

I know I would be quite interested, as I'm sure would many others.

And which uses more CO2, the tanks or the kegs???:grin2:

Bump:


dukydaf said:


> So you see, photos don't tell a lot of the story behind the tank. How many plants melted and fish died.
> 
> In general low light, rich substrate, high filtration capacity, no CO2 very hardy plants and fish will make longer intervals between wc possible. It's not really that it works, you just slow down the tank's death to the point you get bored of it before it reaches it's ultimate conclusion.


Nice summation and food for thought.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

dukydaf said:


> Here's some of the forum love, and keep in mind some posts were likely already removed/edited at this point. And what if he was 6 or 8 ? Have you never witnessed a young lad starting to say big words at a table full of adults willing to impress them ? Would one behave the same as below ?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've raised and encouraged kids and grandkids. I'm well aware of ageism and despise it. I've got no issue with age, I'm being mentored in my business by someone with less experience and 25 years younger. He's better at it then me and I'm learning a lot Everything you said makes perfect sense and I'm in total agreement except everybody that said those things already knew he was lying about his age. They weren't directed at a kid.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

I top off with RODI for 3 weeks before a trim in an 80 gallon tank.
Trimming and vacuuming the 4th week forces me to replace about 20 gallons a month.
We are not melting or dying here either, some weeks require 2x EI dosing even.

Alright I lied a little, Pantanal from @Greggz melted in 36 hours flat.
Shame on me for trying to grow it again, can't grow everything I guess.>


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I top off with RODI for 3 weeks before a trim in an 80 gallon tank.
> Trimming and vacuuming the 4th week forces me to replace about 20 gallons a month.
> We are not melting or dying here either, some weeks require 2x EI dosing even.
> 
> ...


Tank is looking great MG! Those plants look very happy.

Your set up also fascinates me, as it is not typical. 

How much different do you think it would be if you had Phish? 

And how in the world do you go a month before a trim??????? I'll post a before and after this weekend of my tank with just one weeks growth. Two weeks and the tank might choke itself. And that's not bragging. Maybe I need to rethink things and slow it down some. 

Let's face it, whatever you are doing is clearly working (except for the Pantanal!>)


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

A current thread showing everything done by the book but still with undesirable results: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/22-planted-nano-tanks/1255778-started-co2-now-have-algae.html

My point being: instead of giving "less light, more ferts, more water changes" advise to cure everything under the sun (including STD), we take the time to explain why, instead of telling what.
_
Give a man a fish and he will be fed for a day
Teach a man to fish and he will be fed for life_

This is how this thread started: why, not what. If we know why we can improve what.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

dukydaf said:


> I can tell you why mine worked when and for reasons could not keep my maintenance on them ...keep in mind before these tanks were high tech and growing many species of stems. I was also breeding and selling fish like angelfish, betta, rare catfish and other more common fish. So not a beginner.
> 
> Everything that could not adapt to the no water change conditions died, slower or faster but they died. Most of the stem plants and most of the fish.
> 
> ...


I agree with most of this but not quite all.
I know setting up my tank my goal was never to have anything besides hardy plants and fish. It was to have a turtle tank that looks more natural than most with the ability to keep other inhabitants and live plants since I hate the way fake stuff looks. I never had fish or plants massively die off because I never tried to keep them but don't doubt they would die. Platties are super hardy and I was originally thinking that the turtle would keep the population in check (he doesn't btw). the plants were selected since they all grow naturally around here (or could) so when the tank is topped off with my well water I know they could survive with the natural water quality. The tank is co2 injected and fertilized because I notice a drastic difference in the plant life when I do. I played with how often I do water changes for a few years and the schedule I found that makes a difference for this setup is roughly 3mos. (This is when nutrients start to collect enough to grow algae) the longest I've gone is six months due to life getting in the way. Algae grew in this time and plants grew slow but the tank didn't crash and was easily set back on track. I'm sure it would have if i kept letting it go but I had to come home at some point  . I certainly don't see myself getting bord with it as in your conclusion. It's not that I don't do water changes on this system because I'm being lazy, just that I've found that this one works well on the schedule listed especially for spawing shrimp.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Greggz said:


> How much different do you think it would be if you had Phish?
> 
> And how in the world do you go a month before a trim???????


I have phish in the tank pictured. 8 - 1" Cory's.
They are cool little phish but there only purpose is to agitate the substrate.
Enough gets stirred up to let the filter catch it all.
Quite a worker they are and fun to watch @ times.
There waste load goes unnoticed.
When I clean the Poret foam corner filter I peroxide the whole thing and then hot water.
Any BB is completely killed off about every two months.

Purchased 35 shrimp some 2 months ago.
Now there must be hundreds from the berried females.
Do they clean up algae? I reckon so.
Don't have any major algae battles.
Dead plant matter in this tank is an algae magnet.
I always have a net nearby, get anything when I see it.
Snail population is finally on the decline.

The month story.
Uproot everytime only keeping the tops, then have about a week of almost no growth.
Week two they are rooted and going.
Week 4 they are stretched over the surface some.
The density provides some shading that slows things a bit.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I top off with RODI for 3 weeks before a trim in an 80 gallon tank.
> Trimming and vacuuming the 4th week forces me to replace about 20 gallons a month.
> We are not melting or dying here either, some weeks require 2x EI dosing even.
> 
> ...


Overall very nice beautiful plants. Have you found out what make the (my Ranu) curl like that? I get that sometimes, but most leaves are straight across.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

houseofcards said:


> Have you found out what make the (my Ranu) curl like that?


This seems to go in phases.
I want to blame it on shading.
If I plant in an unobstructed area this can get three tiers of leaves and end up 10" tall.
The pick shows some old plants too that had just been moved.
Just some thoughts, nothing validated.

This stuff has runner madness going on.
20 + plants per week usually.
Doesn't sell really well and lots hit the trash.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

dracoviridiz said:


> So, I'm also in the middle of building a pond in my backyard, it will be 1000gal give or take. This will be lined filtered and stocked with Flora and fauna. Kind of a big "tank" with a natural lighting system. Quite a few people seem to like the 10% minimum water change once a week (just what I've noticed).
> For those of you advocating this type of regiment, what would you recommend? 100gal once a week?
> Not busting butt here, this is an honest question of how you would approach something beyond a "normal" tank size because I know what I plan on and it doesn't fit for the die hard water changers on here.
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


If that's reasonably feasible to do it will be beneficial. My pond is around 3700 gallons. I would like to do more water changes but I'm living in the middle of drought-land. Of course stocking and filtering makes a difference too. My main biofilter holds about 450 gallons and a lot of plants. A couple of years ago when I was lucky enough to be fighting flukes and treating that much water with expensive medicine I got to do 50% water changes 3 days in a row! At least there were no buckets involved.


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## Functional (Jan 19, 2018)

dukydaf said:


> Here's some of the forum love, and keep in mind some posts were likely already removed/edited at this point. And what if he was 6 or 8 ? Have you never witnessed a young lad starting to say big words at a table full of adults willing to impress them ? Would one behave the same as below ?
> 
> There is this thing called ageism and it seems to be abundant, next to all other types of discrimination.
> 
> ...


So nice of you to edit my quote to sound like I was attacking someone for making a mistakes. I could care less about his/her age...id say the same thing if they were 6 or 70. I'd help anyone I could within my ability but I'm not going to sugar coat anything...real life isnt all love, light, rainbows and butterflies.


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## Raith (Jun 27, 2014)

On the topic of water changes, do people shut off their canister filters during 50% water changes?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Raith said:


> On the topic of water changes, do people shut off their canister filters during 50% water changes?


Yes lest water from spray bar's tear plants up in heavily planted tank.
Leaves of tall plants would take a beating in my tanks.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

Raith said:


> On the topic of water changes, do people shut off their canister filters during 50% water changes?


i leave mine running so it creates a waterfall effect adding oxygen into my tank water.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

(Please forgive as I overstate the obvious)

I wonder why there's a debate. Clearly the objective (at least of good fish keepers) is to maintain clean 'fresh' water as pure as possible. 

In the fish only tank, this has to be routine partial water changes to dilute the pollution. Depending on the stock level or perhaps the fish type (eg discus) or fish messiness, this may be one or more times a week for 50% or more.

But it's different for a planted tank. Plants, especially fast growing plants (and even algae), will convert the nutrients (aka pollution) into plant tissue that will eventually be removed in trimmings. Assuming a reasonable stock level, these planted tanks will require less frequent and/or lower volume water changes...but even these tanks will eventually benefit from some periodic introduction of fresh water...if only to naturally replenish minerals.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

When all is said and done can we agree that whatever works for you {whether it be my weekly or bi weekly water changes or your monthly or yearly water changes }that is the to go but we should be careful that a newbie does not get the wrong ideas until they reach a level of experience that allows them to make their own decisions,another words when starting a thread like this put a disclaimer saying NOT FOR NEWBIES...


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## C5rider (Dec 30, 2017)

Doogy262 said:


> ...but we should be careful that a newbie does not get the wrong ideas until they reach a level of experience that allows them to make their own decisions,another words when starting a thread like this put a disclaimer saying NOT FOR NEWBIES...


I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water on this thread. It got me thinking (in all my noob-ness) that I NEED to start looking a little closer at the water quality in my tank. So, I run out and get a dip-stick test kit to check the water. Here's my findings.

I have not changed my water and the tank has been running for months. I've included some more plants over the past few weeks, but have not added any fish/livestock. Here are my initial findings.

Ph=8
Kh=120-180
GH=300+ ppm
Nitrite (NO2)=1ppm
Nitrate (NO3)=200+ ppm

I swapped out approximately 30% of the water (6 gallons) with filtered, bottled water. I don't know the parameters of the new water yet, but I can get a test strip and find out. I do know that our tap water is really bad. That's why we have bottled water. 

Here's after the water swap:

Ph=7
Kh=80-120
GH=300+ ppm
Nitrite=.5 ppm
Nitrate=200+ ppm

Now, I've been dosing Seachem Flourish and daily doses of CO2 Booster. Could either of these contribute to the high readings? If I cut out some dosage, would that lower anything or, should I do another water change? Change the water I change the water WITH? As you probably guessed, I'm a noob, but this thread got me looking and thinking. Now it has lead me to seek for answers. Not a bad result for a thread, no?

Here are the test strips, if you're interested.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Raith said:


> On the topic of water changes, do people shut off their canister filters during 50% water changes?


I turn mine off while it's emptying because the water level drops below the level of the intake. I do a roughly 80% water change about every five days. As soon as it's above the level of the intakes when refilling I turn them back on though.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

You could put out an endless parade of "No or Very Infrequent Water Change Setups" it won't change the FACT that it's horrible advise to tell anyone especially a newbie to do less water changes based on one's individual tank. If you don't understand that sorry. 

I really hate these Water Change threads I move to ban any thread starting with the words WATER CHANGE. :wink2:


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@C5rider: your tank has not cycled (no2 > 0) but your no3 is very high. The question to ask yourself is "what is going on?"
I cannot make out the chart in your picture, what is the ammonia at?

Your ammonia level and whether you have plants / fish / shrimp would dictate the next step.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

C5rider said:


> I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water on this thread. It got me thinking (in all my noob-ness) that I NEED to start looking a little closer at the water quality in my tank. So, I run out and get a dip-stick test kit to check the water. Here's my findings.
> 
> I have not changed my water and the tank has been running for months. I've included some more plants over the past few weeks, but have not added any fish/livestock. Here are my initial findings.
> 
> ...


Congrats on taking charge of your tanks and testing. Glad all the anomosity in this thread has actually led to some positive results. Strips are certainly better than nothing, but notoriously inaccurate. Did you cycle your tank? Have you tested for ammonia? You shouldn't have any nitrites and your nitrates are quite high (suspect testing inaccuracies). I couldn't quite understand if there were actually fish in the tank or you just haven't added new fish. If there is you might be causing some stress with a full point PH change. If you can swing it you'd be better off with a better test kit.


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## C5rider (Dec 30, 2017)

Hi guys! 
@OVT I don't know the ammonia levels as this test strip (Tetra Easy Strips) does not have provision for that. I looked at the larger API kit, but defaulted to the "walk before you run" mantra. Now, I've already found an area where that mentality has under-sold my abilities. I have no problem getting the API kit, but I currently don't have one. Will have to get back with you on that one. I think there are some ammonia-only test kits, if I remember correctly. If so, I may get one of those and use up the kit I currently have. Thoughts?

What else would the API test bring to the table? Other trace elements? 

Interestingly, I did test my tank (took it to the LFS) previously and they said no nitrites, but high on nitrates. I thought that meant it was cycled. But maybe it reverted? Something shook it up? All part of the learning. Thanks for the input!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

API and others have stand alone Ammonia test kits. Both Amazon and API list the tests included in their Master Test kits, no traces - they are not that easy to measure.

If your ammonia is > 0.5 and you have livestock in the tank then you have a dilema. If you start water changes and ammonia levels are low your cycle will slow down. If you do not do water changes and you have fish, they will suffer.

You can either fly blind or test your ammonia.

In an emergency, Prime will detoxify ammonia.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

@C5rider
You absolutely should be watching ammonia to see if you tank has cycled. A very easy way to watch this would be one of those ammonia alert stickies (it's no substitute for testing but great in conjunction with a good more accurate test)
I'm personally more of an advocate of wc when your tank tells you it needs them. This approach means you have to be very in tune with the tank watching for any signs that tell you it's time to change water, add fertilizer, remove extra fish etc. It takes time and experience to know what makes the tank tick with this line of thought and it's not for everyone. If this is your first tank you probably want to get on some water change schedule, in my book it's the failsafe untill you get a handle on your tank if nothing else (if in doubt change it out  ) do you have a stock list? How much fertilizer are you adding and how often under what lights? Do you have co2 on this tank? Your numbers look high but if your adding more nutrients than you plants can handle they will stay in the water. Lighting and co2 play a part in plants uptake of nutrients so if either of these is limiting you may just be makeing fertilized water 

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

@
C5rider
Also, what makes your tap water bad? The water may be nasty tasting due to for example iron but the tank may benefit from some extra iron. (Just an example, please don't go adding random water thinking I'm advising it) You may be able to filter out the bad and use the tap water if you can be more specific. If you can't find out many lfs sell rodi water that you can use as a base to add you tank nutrients to or use as is with limited growth. The other water you could use is distilled, this is processed by heating the water to steam which is collected and cooled back to water. Either way I personally chlorine test just to be sure as I don't trust anyone else maintaining their water treatment systems 100%. That's also why I filter my own well water to use though.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

C5rider said:


> I have not changed my water and the tank has been running for months. I've included some more plants over the past few weeks, but have not added any fish/livestock. Here are my initial findings.


Nitrogen is the last byproduct of the cycle, so the fact you have so much suggests that you are cycled. Nitrogen needs to either be removed or consumed (by plants), or it builds up. It doesn't go away by itself. If you let it go, both fish and plants will suffer long term.

The reason your Nitrates are so high is that your fish and fish food are creating Nitrates and you are dosing flourish, which is even more Nitrates, and you haven't performed a water change in months. It's building up, and your plants can't consume it all. In short, the tank water is dirty and not healthy.

The Nitrite reading is most likely inaccurate. Those test strips are not to be trusted.

Other option is that a fish died, or maybe you have lots of waste/dead dying plants, and it started a mini cycle. More likely is the test strips.

I would perform water changes for several days in a row to reset the tank. Then either commit to doing water changes, or learn all you can about no/little water change tanks, and decide if that's the way you want to go. Basically define your goals then select a method.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

C5rider said:


> Here are my initial findings.
> 
> Ph=8
> Kh=120-180
> ...


 @Immortal1 has performed a study regarding NH3 processing.
Maybe he will notice and post exact findings.

High NO3 levels will inhibit bacteria from processing the nitrogen cycle.
Creating a "stall" shall we say.
Once WC is done bacteria begin their work again.

The bottled water may need a GH booster added.
Ca & Mg are most likely stripped in the bottled water.
Have you tested bottled water yet for GH & KH???


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Not sure if I ever figured out how much Nitrate (ppm) it took to stall the processing of ammonia, but I did discover that BB (Beneficial Bacteria) pretty much stopped processing when the Nitrate levels reached a certain level. Once I did a 100% water change in the tank, the BB began processing ammonia again.

That said, 200ppm Nitrate does seem excessively high.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Greggz said:


> Nitrogen is the last byproduct of the cycle, so the fact you have so much suggests that you are cycled.
> 
> .. and you are dosing flourish, which is even more Nitrates


Nitrogen cycle is a multi-step process. The cycle is not complete until all steps are complete. In our hobby we call the tank cycled when ammonia = 0 and nitrite = 0 and nitrate > 0

Moreover, nitrogen cycle is not the only source of nitrogen.

nitrogen

Seachem Floris does not contain Nitrates Seachem - Flourish


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## C5rider (Dec 30, 2017)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I'm thinking that the first thing to do would be to get an ammonia test kit. I'll do that tomorrow. Then, see what that brings. Also, I was dosing Flourish, and as someone said, that'd add to the nitrates. No fish have died and I've not had a lot of dead plant material to speak of. I have been trimming anything that looks unhealthy. I do have one giant Danio, seven black-skirt tetras and four platys in the tank, along with the plants. 

Now, I do have a tank journal going which shows the tank's history and transformation. Some of you have already seen it. Basically, it's a learning process. 

That said, I was wondering which water would be better to use for water changes? I decided to test both and display the results. This is with the same test strips I used for the tank. 
To clarify...

*Tank Specs after today's water change:*
Ph=7 _(Desired 6.8-7.2)_
Kh=80-120 _(Desired 120-180)_
GH=300+ ppm _(Desired 75-ish?)_
Nitrite=.5 ppm _(Desired 0)_
Nitrate=200+ ppm _(Desired < 40)

_What I found: 

*From the Tap:*
Ph=7.2
KH=120-180
Chlorine=2.0
GH=300
Nitrite (NO2)= 0-.5 (hard to differentiate)
Nitrate (NO3)=20

*Drinking (Bottled) Water:*
Ph=6.8
KH=0
Chlorine = 0-.5 
GH= 0
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 0-10

So, if I'm thinking correctly, it would be better to continue with the water changes using the drinking water, correct? And, stop dosing Flourish and CO2 Booster until the tank tells me it needs it? I have noted that with the additional amount of light I've been giving the tank lately (more intense, not just increased duration), I've noted more black algae growing down toward the bottom of the tank. Likely not a surprise for all the additional nitrates, right? Thoughts?


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

The answer became clear to me last night!!!! ....

*Some of us change water way too much...and others of us don't change water nearly enough!
*
There, that should settle it.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

AbbeysDad said:


> The answer became clear to me last night!!!! ....
> 
> *Some of us change water way too much...and others of us don't change water nearly enough!
> *
> There, that should settle it.


Lol that's great and too amusing, I just had to laugh when I saw this 
Tks abbysdad!!!

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## KrustyKrab (Mar 24, 2018)

I always enjoy these threads, a lot to learn about what works for some and what doesn't for others.

My substrate is only a fine layer, nothing can be planted in it, all the plants are attached to hardscape. I usually vacuum the bottom once a week/every 2 weeks and replace the water.

If I were to filter that water while it's being vacuumed, then put it back in the tank, would that be considered as a "water change"? No water is being "changed" per se, yet a lot of particles(mulm, debris, etc) are being removed from it.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

KrustyKrab said:


> If I were to filter that water while it's being vacuumed, then put it back in the tank, would that be considered as a "water change"? No water is being "changed" per se, yet a lot of particles(mulm, debris, etc) are being removed from it.


Uhm....well no. The pollutants are dissolved in the water column so we're replacing that polluted water with fresh water...while at the same time, diluting the remaining pollution in the tank and adding minerals used by plants and fish. Of course, some will correctly suggest that with the right amount of fast growing plants relative to stock load, water will be purified by the plants. However, removing the material you describe can be a good thing in keeping a tank clean...although I know some believe that mulm is a very healthy thing that feeds the substrate biology.
(With sand and Malaysian Trumpet Snails, I never see mulm/drebris on the surface of the substrate.)


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

KrustyKrab said:


> If I were to filter that water while it's being vacuumed, then put it back in the tank, would that be considered as a "water change"? No water is being "changed" per se, yet a lot of particles(mulm, debris, etc) are being removed from it.


This would be considered a recycling topic! >


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

This has got a bit interesting but I have some readings to add to the debate my tank water is 5ppm nitrates. I tested my tap water and it is an alarmingly high reading at 40ppm nitrate so doing too many water changes would be increasing nitrates not the best idea for fish but could be good for the plants although as I don't have 0ppm nitrates it probably wouldn't make any difference to the plants.

I might just have to get the RO unit working when I change water particularly for my non planted tank although I not sure the turtles care about nitrates as much as fish


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

aqua360 said:


> I tested my tap water and it is an alarmingly high reading at 40ppm nitrate so doing too many water changes would be increasing nitrates ...


Having 40 ppm NO3 in drinking water would be against regulations. The legal limit is up to 10 ppm.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Edward said:


> Having 40 ppm NO3 in drinking water would be against regulations. The legal limit is up to 10 ppm.


Of course that's for public water and that's the recommended max. I'm not 100% but I believe if that level is exceeded that it has to be monitored and noted on the water report. I don't believe there is any regulations that makes them lower it. After all, this is the gubment.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

KrustyKrab said:


> I usually vacuum the bottom ... If I were to filter that water while it's being vacuumed, then put it back in the tank, would that be considered as a "water change"? No water is being "changed" per se, yet a lot of particles(mulm, debris, etc) are being removed from it.


Well yes, if you are actually able to filter all the contaminants from the water. A 0.2µm filter would typically get rid of most debris and many bacteria. You will have to get even lower than that to trap larger organic molecules. There would still be some smaller molecules left, but lets say the microorganisms and plants might be able to handle those. You will still need to filter the water volume, not just vacuum the substrate.



AbbeysDad said:


> water will be purified by the plants.


Yes, to some extent. However, two aspects are at play here. First, plants are not vacuum cleaners to be able to take up everything, a lot of bacterial and chemical work needs to go into transforming detritus into plant food. Some molecules will not, or only slowly, or only a small % be converted back into usable compounds. This is because of the physical limitation of the aquarium system as explained previously. These molecules will accumulate and lead to the "old tank syndrome" sooner or later.

The second one, plants are not black holes. Plants are living organisms with a metabolism. As part of their metabolism plants will also release in the water molecules that need to be degraded. They contribute to DOC for example. This is one of the reasons why high growth rates demand higher frequency water changes, while aquariums with low light, nutrient limited growth and plants with low metabolism can do with less water changes (fauna being the same). So yes, plants do uptake NH3, but their growth is not a 0 "emission" process.



aqua360 said:


> I tested my tap water and it is an alarmingly high reading at 40ppm nitrate so doing too many water changes would be increasing nitrates not the best idea for fish but could be good for the plants although as I don't have 0ppm nitrates it probably wouldn't make any difference to the plants.


How much does your water report say you should have at tap ? You can do as many changes you want regarding the plants, 40ppm is a great NO3 conc., you just don't need to put in anymore NO3. For fish... well this is a planted tank forum.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

aqua360 said:


> This has got a bit interesting but I have some readings to add to the debate my tank water is 5ppm nitrates. I tested my tap water and it is an alarmingly high reading at 40ppm nitrate so doing too many water changes would be increasing nitrates not the best idea for fish but could be good for the plants although as I don't have 0ppm nitrates it probably wouldn't make any difference to the plants.
> 
> I might just have to get the RO unit working when I change water particularly for my non planted tank although I not sure the turtles care about nitrates as much as fish


Turtles deserve a clean tank just as much as fish do.

What water did you use to start this tank with? You made zero mention of nitrate issues previously. If anything, you said the water in the tank was under 5ppm. This is curious in and of itself as nitrates are the end of the cycling process, so how nitrates remained at 5ppm or less and the tank is being deemed fully cycled doesn't make any sense.

If you used tap water to start this tank, there is no way a newly planted tank is going to eat through 40ppm nitrates. Many of the so-called established tanks around here don't eat through that much nitrate. People love to to dump stuff in their tanks, but when asked if they actually need it or if they tested for fill in the blank, the whining starts about how testing is a waste of time and energy. 



aqua360 said:


> Ok I can't believe I am about to ask this question and I am sure there will be a good reason but I have kept fish for over 20 years and always carried out weekly waterchanges but I recently (2 months ago) set up my first fully flanted tank now I cycled the tank the first month using fishfood in a stocking the tank was cycled long before I finished my cycling scedule when first few fish went it it had 0 ammonia 0 nitrites and about 10 nitrate but once I put the fish in I removed the stocking and just added the food the fish needed to eat.
> 
> The water readings are now 0 ammonia 0 nitrite and almost 0 nitrates it is certainly less than 5 so as i add ferts to the water that will put nutrients in the water as well as CO2 and the plants are using up the nitrate. I am struggling to come up with a reason to change the water. I have seen a nitrate test as a good indicator of when to change the water previously but is this is still true in a planted tank with added ferts and CO2 if not why not.
> 
> ...


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

dukydaf said:


> ...plants are not black holes. Plants are living organisms with a metabolism. As part of their metabolism plants will also release in the water molecules that need to be degraded. They contribute to DOC for example. This is one of the reasons why high growth rates demand higher frequency water changes, while aquariums with low light, nutrient limited growth and plants with low metabolism can do with less water changes (fauna being the same). So yes, plants do uptake NH3, but their growth is not a 0 "emission" process.


Yes! Glad to hear someone else make that point. Everyone who maintains that planted tanks never need a water change because they're reached a magical equilibrium don't take into account that O2 is not the only waste product released by plants.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Smooch said:


> ... the whining starts about how testing is a waste of time and energy.


Or when the whining starts about those who see no need to test.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Smooch said:


> Turtles deserve a clean tank just as much as fish do.


 Oh course they do I wasn't implying otherwise but they don't have gills 



Smooch said:


> What water did you use to start this tank with? You made zero mention of nitrate issues previously.


 I mentioned nitrate in the post you quoted but I only just tested my tap water out of curiosity 



Smooch said:


> If anything, you said the water in the tank was under 5ppm.


 That is exactlty what I said the tank has less than 5ppm 




Smooch said:


> This is curious in and of itself as nitrates are the end of the cycling process, so how nitrates remained at 5ppm or less and the tank is being deemed fully cycled doesn't make any sense.


 The tank is fully cycled has been for about 2 months 



Smooch said:


> If you used tap water to start this tank, there is no way a newly planted tank is going to eat through 40ppm nitrates. Many of the so-called established tanks around here don't eat through that much nitrate. People love to to dump stuff in their tanks, but when asked if they actually need it or if they tested for fill in the blank, the whining starts about how testing is a waste of time and energy.


 I used tap water, I am just telling you what the test readings are, testing is not a waste of time. There are a lot of plants in this tank.There are only two possible explanations either the 40ppm in the tap water is new or the plants ate the nitrate It is true I have no idea what the tap water nitrate was when it was set up but as it has only had fish in it about a month so it has not had many water changes in the 3 month it has been set up (took about a month the cycle but didn't start testing for nitrate until ammonia and nitrite went though the rise and fell to zero)

Of course I am able to use RO if I wish to as I already have a unit.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

Jeff5614 said:


> Or when the whining starts about those who see no need to test.


I'm on the side of testing. At least once in a while. How the heck do you know where your going if you have no idea where you've been.

I have test kits.

I need to use them much more. But I rarely test. Way too many tanks. But I also am out in the fish house every day and I watch the fish. And the plants. I see something wrong I grab a kit and test. 

I will say however having well water and doing water changes regularly does keep things in better balance.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

GraphicGr8s said:


> ...
> 
> I will say however having well water and doing water changes regularly does keep things in better balance.


Another advantage of water changes. Robust water changes and robust fertilizing eliminates the need for most testing IMO.


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## GraphicGr8s (Apr 4, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Another advantage of water changes. Robust water changes and robust fertilizing eliminates the need for most testing IMO.


The important part of my statement however is I am on well water. I add nothing to my water out of the well so it remains fairly stable. If you're on municipal water that is a different story. That can vary considerably day to day. I can, and did this weekend after the local auction, fill a tank with water and add fish without a cycle. When I lived up north and was on muni water I couldn't do that.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

GraphicGr8s said:


> The important part of my statement however is I am on well water. I add nothing to my water out of the well so it remains fairly stable. If you're on municipal water that is a different story. That can vary considerably day to day. I can, and did this weekend after the local auction, fill a tank with water and add fish without a cycle. When I lived up north and was on muni water I couldn't do that.


Been on tap for 15 years. What's going to vary that greatly? Doing regular water changes always bring things back toward the center. That's the whole concept behind EI Type dosing. It's far from precise. The tank is constantly changing no matter what you do. It' never static since you have different uptake, etc as the plants and mass changes. The rest of the water change benefit is too lower organics.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

Edward said:


> aqua360 said:
> 
> 
> > I tested my tap water and it is an alarmingly high reading at 40ppm nitrate so doing too many water changes would be increasing nitrates ...
> ...


Something something Lead, something something, Flint...

Probably a regulation about that somewhere.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I will drink my tank water. I will not drink from my tap.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OVT said:


> I will drink my tank water. I will not drink from my tap.


I could see it now. "Get your Nature Aquarium Water here, better than tap, cheaper than spring water." You might have created a new niche.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I could see it now. "Get your Nature Aquarium Water here, better than tap, cheaper than spring water." You might have created a new niche.


My tap is certainly is not spring water.
$7 per 357ml + S&H


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

@aqua360
Your correct on the no3 regulations but not the location etc. NO3 is regulated as a minimum once a year sample tanken in the quarter of the year with the highest historical average at each entry point location. The EP tap designation is made by the governing agency (EPA or DEP) usually this is the first available tap after all treatment has been completed. When you walk into a public water supply there are usually taps all over the place with various tags or lables listing their designations. So while NO2 and NO3 are currently regulated they are not regulated in the distribution system or out of anyone's tap. 
**Not saying I agree with this (I don't make the regs) but this is how it's monitored and reported.

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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> I could see it now. "Get your Nature Aquarium Water here, better than tap, cheaper than spring water." You might have created a new niche.


Note: the yellow tinge is the added vitameatavegamin.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

AbbeysDad said:


> Note: the yellow tinge is the added vitameatavegamin.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody monitors my country well across the road from a 95 acre farmers field!


Nope, it's your well and your choice to monitor or not. You certainly could have your water tested for anything you like though, just contact a certified lab if you want official accredited results.

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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

If there's a concern with your well water quality, the EPA does monitor source water. Sometimes by contacting them you can receive a free kit where they will test your water for just about anything imaginable and send you the results just for helping them track this information. it's a bit of a hassle but the extent of the testing would cost $3000-$4000 at the labs around here.

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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

dracoviridiz said:


> Nope, it's your well and your choice to monitor or not. You certainly could have your water tested for anything you like though, just contact a certified lab if you want official accredited results.


My point was that since it's not monitored, regardless of recommended levels or government regulations, water in the country can, and often does have high nitrates, especially in agricultural areas. Mine does, so I have bottled water delivered for drinking and filter my well water to remove nitrates for aquarium water changes.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Found this 

"The current UK regulatory standard for Nitrate is 50 mg/l – (milligrams per litre). Derived from the water standard advised by the European Union’s Drinking Water Directive. This EU standard is based on the World Health Organisation’s guidelines for drinking water, which is also 50 mg/l – (milligrams per litre). That regulatory standard is intended to ensure that UK drinking water will not cause Methemoglobinemia in human infants." Nitrate in Your Water Supply - Aquatec - Pure Water People

It seems 40ppm is 39.9 mg/l so within standards.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

AbbeysDad said:


> My point was that since it's not monitored, regardless of recommended levels or government regulations, water in the country can, and often does have high nitrates, especially in agricultural areas. Mine does, so I have bottled water delivered for drinking and filter my well water to remove nitrates for aquarium water changes.


I understand, I also live in the country and treat my own well water for my various uses. I'm professionally a water treatment plant operator so it's part of my job to stay educated on regulations with the EPA and since Pennsylvania is a weird state that claimed their own primacy the DEP a well. Thankfully, @AbbeysDad, you seem like an educated individual who understands having your own well. The general public, in my experience, just assumes that their well water is "better", "healthier", and "cleaner" than a public water system and without testing there's just no way to know. So, just tossing the info out there in case anyone in the usa has a well and wants water quality assessed. 
As a side note, no matter what your source is, there are normal fluctuations in water quality just due to seasonal differences and water table.

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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

aqua360 said:


> Found this
> 
> "The current UK regulatory standard for Nitrate is 50 mg/l – (milligrams per litre). Derived from the water standard advised by the European Union’s Drinking Water Directive. This EU standard is based on the World Health Organisation’s guidelines for drinking water, which is also 50 mg/l – (milligrams per litre). That regulatory standard is intended to ensure that UK drinking water will not cause Methemoglobinemia in human infants." Nitrate in Your Water Supply - Aquatec - Pure Water People
> 
> It seems 40ppm is 39.9 mg/l so within standards.


Ya USA limit is 10 ppm or mg/L, but at entry point (at water plant) not in the distribution system (someones home).

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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

aqua360 said:


> I used tap water, I am just telling you what the test readings are, testing is not a waste of time. There are a lot of plants in this tank.There are only two possible explanations either the 40ppm in the tap water is new or the plants ate the nitrate It is true I have no idea what the tap water nitrate was when it was set up but as it has only had fish in it about a month so it has not had many water changes in the 3 month it has been set up (took about a month the cycle but didn't start testing for nitrate until ammonia and nitrite went though the rise and fell to zero)
> 
> Of course I am able to use RO if I wish to as I already have a unit.


If you are on town or city water, you should have access to a water report in your area. If there is 40 ppm nitrates coming from your tap and you are paying for that water, if I were you, I'd be on the phone. 

If you are on a well, you are SOL unless you have the water tested yourself. If the test comes back with anything questionable, they will tell you that any problems are your problems. I've been through this. The town I live in has tried to accuse me of causing water problems when I'm surrounded by cranberry bogs that are not only sprayed by plane on a daily basis for a few months of the year with God knows what, but then there is the stuff that isn't sprayed by plane. Its ridiculous, but keeping it real isn't a option.

Another option could be that you have a wonky test kit. API nitrate test kits ( if this is what you use) are a pain in the butt and have been misleading tank owners for years. API umbrellas under MARS, Inc. The company MARS is candy maker. How they managed to get their tentacles into fish keeping is a mystery. They're not what I'd consider a good source for anything fish related IMO.

My point is, you can't avoid water changes forever. There are plenty of threads around here where people didn't want to do them or were told that they didn't have to do them and the results are always the same. The fish are not healthy or become sick and die, algae issues develop, ect... It is your tank, run it as you see fit.

I did the math a few months ago for how much we spend on RO water. It came to just over $1,800.00 a year. That number doesn't include travel time or the gas to buy it once a week. That was for 2 tanks plus a 5 gallon jug for household use. My ten gallon was torn down and donated, so even with one tank, we're still spending a lot of cash for water. We do have a RO system, but for the time it takes to get 1 five gallon container takes 10-plus hours and even then, the water isn't as clean as I want it to be for the things I can test for, so who knows what is not being filtered out that I can't test for.


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## IntotheWRX (May 13, 2016)

dracoviridiz said:


> I understand, I also live in the country and treat my own well water for my various uses. I'm professionally a water treatment plant operator so it's part of my job to stay educated on regulations with the EPA and since Pennsylvania is a weird state that claimed their own primacy the DEP a well. Thankfully, @AbbeysDad, you seem like an educated individual who understands having your own well. The general public, in my experience, just assumes that their well water is "better", "healthier", and "cleaner" than a public water system and without testing there's just no way to know. So, just tossing the info out there in case anyone in the usa has a well and wants water quality assessed.
> As a side note, no matter what your source is, there are normal fluctuations in water quality just due to seasonal differences and water table.
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


As a water professional, do you have any tips for home drinking water?

types of treatments/filtration you would highly recommend to the common folks?

I'm pursing the best drinking water I can for longevity. Thanks!


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

Smooch said:


> If you are on town or city water, you should have access to a water report in your area. If there is 40 ppm nitrates coming from your tap and you are paying for that water, if I were you, I'd be on the phone.
> 
> If you are on a well, you are SOL unless you have the water tested yourself. If the test comes back with anything questionable, they will tell you that any problems are your problems. I've been through this. The town I live in has tried to accuse me of causing water problems when I'm surrounded by cranberry bogs that are not only sprayed by plane on a daily basis for a few months of the year with God knows what, but then there is the stuff that isn't sprayed by plane. Its ridiculous, but keeping it real isn't a option.
> 
> ...


Yes, you can call and complain you get 40ppm no3, but realize that there is no regulations on what no3 coming out of your tap. The only regs are for water at the plant. The folks you speak with will most likely laugh if your checking this with an aquarium grade kit so you would want official accredited results if you want to get anywhere. You should also test at your curbstop to rule out that something in your homes plumbing is causing this result as this would be the next step that we look at when handling this type of complaint. If all this is done and the result at the plant is that far off of the curbstop reading, there is an issue with the distribution system. There probably is since somewhere around 80-90% of water distribution systems in the USA are beyond their life exptancy but the systems failed to secure funding to replace them. If all these mainlines need to be replaced: most likely, you would either get a smile and nod while "planning" is done to address this or the issue will auctually be addressed which usually means a rate increase in the near future.

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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

Smooch said:


> If you are on town or city water, you should have access to a water report in your area. If there is 40 ppm nitrates coming from your tap and you are paying for that water, if I were you, I'd be on the phone.


Well, I pay water rates I do not pay for the amount of water I use I pay the same if I use none as I do if I use loads. but the water is within regulation what do I have to complain about? 





Smooch said:


> Another option could be that you have a wonky test kit. API nitrate test kits ( if this is what you use) are a pain in the butt and have been misleading tank owners for years. API umbrellas under MARS, Inc. The company MARS is candy maker. How they managed to get their tentacles into fish keeping is a mystery. They're not what I'd consider a good source for anything fish related IMO.


 I do use API but I shake to bottles at least double the recommended amount I used to Hagan nutrafin but there was none in stock when I bought the current tests I did prefer the Hagan tests though even if they are more expensive. However, I have conducted multiple tests and the result are the same. 



Smooch said:


> My point is, you can't avoid water changes forever. There are plenty of threads around here where people didn't want to do them or were told that they didn't have to do them and the results are always the same. The fish are not healthy or become sick and die, algae issues develop, etc... It is your tank, run it as you see fit.


 It appears you have missed the point of this thread it is not about avoiding water changes, water changes are important I would not have had the success I have had with fishkeeping and breeding for that matter if I was concerned with avoiding water changes. It is simply fact that above a certain level there is no point in changing more often trick is finding that level. 



Smooch said:


> I did the math a few months ago for how much we spend on RO water. It came to just over $1,800.00 a year. That number doesn't include travel time or the gas to buy it once a week. That was for 2 tanks plus a 5 gallon jug for household use. My ten gallon was torn down and donated, so even with one tank, we're still spending a lot of cash for water. We do have a RO system, but for the time it takes to get 1 five gallon container takes 10-plus hours and even then, the water isn't as clean as I want it to be for the things I can test for, so who knows what is not being filtered out that I can't test for.


My RO unit runs into a tank that has an overflow pipe in case it overfills and the wastewater goes down the drain if you have had a decent unit particularly if it has a DI cartridge included there should be no contaminants readable (do not drink DI water it is too pure) but even without the DI cartridge you should not be reading any ammonia, nitrite or nitrate in RO water if you are you probably need either new filters or a new membrane


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

IntotheWRX said:


> As a water professional, do you have any tips for home drinking water?
> 
> types of treatments/filtration you would highly recommend to the common folks?
> 
> I'm pursing the best drinking water I can for longevity. Thanks!


Lol, ya but their not happy tips or things most people want to do.
Most people don't realize that most water treatment facilitys in the USA are in critical failure points beyond the life expectancy of the system. Usually not the plants but the distribution systems. We see the water plants everyday and usually cash goes into the maintenance of things you see, all those pipes are hidden underground and out of sight=out of mind. I've sat on community board meetings and had 10year over due maintenance shot down for a basketball court to be built instead. The issue here is public education. Most operators I speak with are fed up with getting ignored and having their issues 'tabled' when they are quite serious. So educate yourself, find out what your source is, how old your plant and distribution system is. Find out how their funding on going maintenance, this will give you a good idea of on going water quality issues. Also speak with your operator, even if there are multiple operators there will be one lead operator that will have the final say on process control decisions. this person specificly should be a wealth of information on your specific system. They should know what the source water does or doesn't contain and where failure will most likely occur. If you can get them to speak with you they would be the most valuable source of information if your looking to add home secondary treatment. Otherwise your CCR report will show facts from the previous year and the EPA has a website where you can look up all the system information with your systems PWSID#. 
On your part make sure your home plumbing is maintained: flush out, winterize, and repair as you should and make sure you have back flow protection between the home and system.

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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

fishkullerclams said:


> Look man. You can go a pretty long time without a water change. Some pros (not me) just wait till the water looks like it needs changing. Its 50/50 on if you have scheduled ones or just whenever ones. Id say at LEAST once a month


That's a pretty broad statement, what kind of tank does that apply too?


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

https://media3.giphy.com/media/trKslMPbNKvXW/giphy.gif


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@Edward Are you saying the conversation just keeps going in circles and it's an endless debate?

Yeah that's what I thought, but it really isn't a debate. Not when you are giving out advise in general. I have a tank that I only do top offs on. It's a grow out tank and it's got a little algae in it, but overall it looks fine to most aquarist's eye, it still doesn't mean I would offer that advise in general.

There's no debate, because you can't take ANY tank, not do water changes, or very infrequent water changes and say it will help that tank stay algae free, plant healthy. The tank that gets a few or no water changes operates in a thinner bandwidth and his limitations to it's success, like heavy plant mass, low stock, lower lighting, etc.

The tank that gets regular water changes can operate successfully in a much broader bandwidth in terms of light, stock, plant mass etc. These setups would not even be possible without regular water changes since the lighting might be high compared to the plant mass/uptake the tank has. Regular water changes gives one the flexibility to do much more within the glass box then a tank without water changes. 

So whether the tank needs the change or not, you are preventing an issue before it shows. For someone to say they look at their water or they test before doing a water change, means the problem already exists and is much harder to deal with.

Just like the oil change analogy mentioned by @sdwindansea. The regular water change is preventive as opposed to reactive. There is no real debate.


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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

fishkullerclams said:


> Look man. You can go a pretty long time without a water change. Some pros (not me) just wait till the water looks like it needs changing. Its 50/50 on if you have scheduled ones or just whenever ones. Id say at LEAST once a month


If you are waiting until the water looks like or smells like it needs changing it is well past when it needs changing let alone the optimal changing point. In my experience stability is the key to being a success.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

GraphicGr8s said:


> I'm on the side of testing. At least once in a while. How the heck do you know where your going if you have no idea where you've been.
> 
> I have test kits.
> 
> ...


I have no strong feelings either way. If someone feels more comfortable testing then that's fine and if you feel good not testing that's good too.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Only time I "look" to see if my water needs changed is when I look at my calendar.


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## ursamajor (Oct 6, 2015)

@aqua360 Regarding your original question, I think the water changes a tank requires are always determined by what is accumulating in the tank. And unless you're topping off a sealed, empty tank with RO water, there is always something accumulating in the tank.

I would suppose that a large, lightly stocked, lightly fertilized tank, topped off with RO water, would require very infrequent water changes. As you said, at some level there isn't a point. For practically anything else, I just don't see how you could go wrong with large frequent water changes. It lets you know for sure that wastes are not accumulating in your tank. Doing them on a schedule ensures cleanliness and stability.

I know you aren't trying to get out of water changes. I'd say, unless water changes are an undue chore, don't fix what isn't broken.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jeff5614 said:


> I have no strong feelings either way. If someone feels more comfortable testing then that's fine and if you feel good not testing that's good too.


Agreed. 

Personally I test every week. Just makes me feel better. I like to see very early if something is wonky. 

Now it's just part of my usual maintenance routine, and only takes a few extra minutes.

I also think the harder you drive the tank, the more important it is. I drive mine very hard, and am walking a fine line sometimes. And that goes for water changes too. The harder you are driving the tank (lights/ferts/CO2) the more critical changes are. All depends on your goals.

And I know some very successful people who never test. Whatever works is good.


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

I think a few people are miss understanding the looking at or watching the tank. I know personally when I say this I'm not referring to watching the color of the water or for smelly water, by that time if you don't notice an issue there is something very wrong. I watch for things like less ratio of shrimp larve to adults indicating my calcium is dropping so I top off with well water instead of filtered. Or if my fish that are mid swimmers start gravitating twords the top I should double check co2. I have had certain plants that start browning at the tips when iron is anything but over abundent. It's not a replacement for a good test kit imo but I definitely watch certain indicators that tell how the tank is doing. Espically for a system that you arnt pushing super hard for growth etc. Certain changes are so gradual you may only be testing trace elements monthly etc and not dosing more then a few drops. For me these are very good indicators of your system if you have had the setup long enough to know what they mean.

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## aqua360 (Feb 20, 2018)

ursamajor said:


> I know you aren't trying to get out of water changes. I'd say, unless water changes are an undue chore, don't fix what isn't broken.


That is, of course, an excellent point. Water changes are not an undue chore and running a 4 foot and a 6 foot requires much less maintenance than when I was running 6 tanks of various sizes. I have never really treated water changes as a one size fits all kind of thing when I was breeding angelfish the fry tank needed the water changes every day but when I had the 6 foot minimally stocked once a month was plenty. I will, of course, figure out how often to change the water on this tank but expect it will probably end up with a weekly change.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

dracoviridiz said:


> I think a few people are miss understanding the looking at or watching the tank. I know personally when I say this I'm not referring to watching the color of the water or for smelly water, by that time if you don't notice an issue there is something very wrong. I watch for things like less ratio of shrimp larve to adults indicating my calcium is dropping so I top off with well water instead of filtered. Or if my fish that are mid swimmers start gravitating twords the top I should double check co2. I have had certain plants that start browning at the tips when iron is anything but over abundent...


Wait a second, all the above mentioned symptoms are already problems in and of themselves. Any agricultural engineer will tell you that by the time you are able to see the deficiency in the plants (spots, holes, deformations), the plant has long been suffering and levels were not sufficient for optimal and healthy growth. And how long it would take till the Ca deficiency gets to affect the number of offspring...2 weeks, one month? Why not work prevent this from happening in the first place with.... a water change.

As for looking at water... Maybe with a spectrometer or if you had a powerful microscope you may be able to observe a shift in the microbial population with growing pollution.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Absolutely!
Many years ago, I had assumed my well water was good, certainly at least for the aquarium. I first realized I had a water challenge when my fish were having trouble...even with 50%+ weekly water changes.
Come to find out that at the time, my tap (well) water was 60-80ppm nitrates! (So tank nitrates were off the chart). 
I attribute this to the 95 acre farmers field across the road that I believe gets ample fertilizer. If that's not bad enough, I live 1/2 - 1 mile or so from a former (now closed and capped) landfill. Right now however, (winter) the nitrates are at 10-20ppm, so my nitrate filter media (API Nitra-Zorb) lasts longer between brine recharges.
(We've had bottled water delivered for drinking for many years...not so for many people living around us.)



dracoviridiz said:


> I understand, I also live in the country and treat my own well water for my various uses. I'm professionally a water treatment plant operator so it's part of my job to stay educated on regulations with the EPA and since Pennsylvania is a weird state that claimed their own primacy the DEP a well. Thankfully, @*AbbeysDad*, you seem like an educated individual who understands having your own well. The general public, in my experience, just assumes that their well water is "better", "healthier", and "cleaner" than a public water system and without testing there's just no way to know. So, just tossing the info out there in case anyone in the usa has a well and wants water quality assessed.
> As a side note, no matter what your source is, there are normal fluctuations in water quality just due to seasonal differences and water table.
> 
> Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk


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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

dukydaf said:


> Wait a second, all the above mentioned symptoms are already problems in and of themselves. Any agricultural engineer will tell you that by the time you are able to see the deficiency in the plants (spots, holes, deformations), the plant has long been suffering and levels were not sufficient for optimal and healthy growth. And how long it would take till the Ca deficiency gets to affect the number of offspring...2 weeks, one month? Why not work prevent this from happening in the first place with.... a water change.
> 
> As for looking at water... Maybe with a spectrometer or if you had a powerful microscope you may be able to observe a shift in the microbial population with growing pollution.


Because these arnt symptoms that are necessarily fixed by a water change. For instance Ca levels. the amount of CaCO2 in my water is naturally is 50-65ppm. If I fill a tank with this the tank is quickly covered with percipitate. These shrimp also reproduce very very well for me, so it's very normal for me to look at the glass and gravel and see the larval form all over the place and even swimming through the water colum. I top of this tank about every other day, at this point I know exactly how much of my normal filtered water I add vs. how much straight from the well to keep calcium. But I got there with a mix of testing, watching for calcium build up in the tank, and watching my shrimp population. I'm not saying this is the only method I use or don't test. More that if I suddenly noticed my shrimp population not looking up to where it should be the first thing I'm doing is checking calcium. Im speaking of things slowly creaping out of wack or just reacting to yourstock instead of shrugging it off. I know I have some different circumstances because I have various sources of well water or filtered water to play with not city water. It would be like coming home to your tank and noticing fishy isn't in his normal cave even tho he has stayed there the last 4 months. So you go through and check every parameters you can think of. Say you find high no3 and do a water change and see uneaten food get mixed around when you dump in new water. Now you start watching feeding to see that your only adding what food can be eaten but at the same time if in the future if fishy is hainging outside his cave the first thing your probably going to check is no3. 
In applying this to water changes, for me at least, I do said changes before the issue arrises. So when I started my tank I did start with weekly changes, then backed off. I have a slower hardy type tank. With regular daily maintenance I don't notice a change in water quality untill about 6mos. Without a water change so i usually do one around 3-4 months. 6months is also when I would see algae growth and plant growth decline, hydrogen sulfide starts to collect and I can see this if the turtle digs in the gravel. 
The truth is that at some point something will go wrong or not be optimal in every aquarium, as living things grow they use different amounts of nutrients, water quality changes from your source or you forget to change your filter, temperature changes, a heater goes crazy, or let's be honest here you get lazy or life gets in the way. There are just inevitable variables, if you have tank for a long time eventually something will be off in my experience, it doesn't have to be a tank nuke. I'm not saying to intentionally let it happen, but when it does look back in your journal (hopefully with photos) and look for the little signs that led there and notice them next time. Please understand I'm not suggesting this is easier or less time consuming than dumping water in and out every week, for me this happens after you have that basic schedule worked out (what ever it is that works for your tank) and is more in play when your really fine tuning the various nutrients that get imported and exported in the system.

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## dracoviridiz (Apr 12, 2018)

I also have a slightly different reason for keeping my aquariums than most who do it just for an awesome display. For work there are times we have to keep local fish in the effluent from a wastewater treatment plant or offer suggestions for reestablishing a wetland or give potential environmental side effects of adding various chemical treatment at water plants and how to neutralize this before discharging to a natural source. Many of these situations include creating a sample tank environment and keeping it alive. These type of studies are done with a very hands off approach. My goal with my turtle tank was a more natural environment for the turtle so it looked nicer but also practice my hand at keeping local or comparable type stock so my lack of experience with planted aquariums didn't mess with results. So as much as I try to keep a healthy planted tank this is also my ongoing study of how different small changes impct the environment. Like how close to our local hardness my discharge hardness has to be based on discharge ratio to not kill off the crayfish that naturally live here. 

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## Koenig44 (Aug 19, 2016)

Just my two cents:

Water changes can’t do any harm. Only good can come from them. So, no reason not to do them, if you ask me. 

Not only that, it forces you to look throughout your tank....more than just watching the front panel of glass. 

Carry on. 


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