# Betta Splendens as part of a community tank?



## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

I'm currently trying to put together a stocking list for a 118 gal that I'll be setting up soon and I seem to have stumbled across a seemingly contentious topic of keeping male Betta fish as part of a community tank. I'll admit that I've never kept this species before. I've always followed the advice that they were too territorial and aggressive and have never liked the idea of an isolated fish.

Recently while looking at scapes and stocking on youtube I stumbled across a video which had a Betta as part of a community. And then (due to youtube's algorithms) started seeing lots of videos of betta in community tanks. From memory I've seen betta with

Apistogrammas
Rams
Silvertip tetra
Congo tetra
Black/green (and neon) neon tetra
Bleeding heart
Lemon tetras
Angelfish 
Rummynose tetra


As you can imagine this shifted my perception in terms of stocking. After messaging with a few of these guys on youtube the general consensus I got was that if given ample space male betta splendens don't bother other fish and that in terms of aggression, tetras move at light speed in comparison to how fast a Betta can swim so aggression is never actually sustained, especially when the Betta can't find anyone to confront. So I wanted to see what the members of TPT thought about it. 



Should I rule it out and move on to to other potential setups?


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well... I think it depends on the individual betta. I kept one in a 20L with cherry barbs for several years, and it was fine. He did not bother the other fish. Another time I tried to keep a betta with platies. During the day things looked okay, but apparently at night he bit the platies' fins off. I lost several and had to re-home the survivor. Tried again with cories and he was constantly shadowing them, like hunting behavior. So that betta ended up living alone, I didn't trust him anymore.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

JJ09 said:


> Well... I think it depends on the individual betta. I kept one in a 20L with cherry barbs for several years, and it was fine. He did not bother the other fish. Another time I tried to keep a betta with platies. During the day things looked okay, but apparently at night he bit the platies' fins off. I lost several and had to re-home the survivor. Tried again with cories and he was constantly shadowing them, like hunting behavior. So that betta ended up living alone, I didn't trust him anymore.


I've read that some betta consider platies competition and so wouldn't introduce any if I were to get one, or Gouramis. I find it interesting that he lived with your barbs for years without issue. Definitely something to consider.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

Wild Bettas aren't hugely different from Gourami in behaviors. A lot of Anabantid aggression is _generally_ con-specific. It's aimed at keeping competition out of the area for breeding and territory reasons. But in general, I believe the rough guide is that Wild-type Bettas and Gouramis have similar requirements when putting them in community tanks, within reason.

Splendens differ because of the breeding. The species hasn't been bred just for color, but also aggression for fish fighting, so you see a lot more variation in the levels of aggression when looking at individuals as these breeding lines intermix over the years. Both my current Bettas live in community tanks. But I specifically picked fish that showed less aggressive behaviors, or already thriving in a community tank at the LFS. And even then, they behave really differently. One is more timid, the other will be a bit of a bully for a little while when introduced to new tankmates, but otherwise settle down. 

So depending on the Betta you get, as long as it doesn't consider the tankmates food or competition, they do surprisingly well. But _always_ have an exit strategy in case things go south, because it's just hard to predict exactly where an individual will land when you actually try to introduce them to the tank.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Currently have a male Betta in with dwarf rainbows and lambchop rasboras and he completely ignores them and a bunch of female Bettas in with assorted tetras, keyhole cichlids and other fish and they ignore them. First Betta I ever got when I was a kid immediately grabbed a neon by the head the second I put it in the tank and before I could net him out he ripped off half of a fancy guppies tail. So careful with small fish and nothing with long flowing fins he may mistake for another Betta. 

Other than that you will probably be OK just be prepared in case your Betta is a jerk.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Betta spledens (aka the common betta found at stores with various tail types) are a low moving fish in comparison to most of the noes listed above. They also do not do well in strong current which are often needed to filter large tanks like yours. IMO i'd not keep one in a community simple because they'll have a harder time getting food from faster fish/get fins nipped by faster fish.
IN regards to betta personality-some simply don't like to share.. I've also read from some betta owners who kept them with other micro fish (ember tetra if I recall correctly) the betta got along fine for about a year then started hunting the embers so had to be separated-so a betta getting along with otehr fish initially doesn't mean it will last.
For a 118 gallon tank I'd chose a larger centerpiece fish than a betta and have maybe 1-2 large schooling fish groups and a cleaner fish like cory to get any missed food... but that's just me.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Mine in my 29 with the rasboras and rainbows doesn't have a hard time competing for food. He is right up at the top with them at feeding time. But they are all surface feeders so that might help. Certain tetras might be more of an issue where they strike at the surface from below like little piranhas. 

A 118 *is* a really big tank that a long veil tailed Betta might struggle in. But shorter finned varieties or a bunch of female Bettas would probably be fine.


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## Tyrant46290 (Jul 21, 2018)

That size tank you could actually have roughly 4 male betta without problems. Most people have female betta sororities. Females can be in larger groups.

Gourami and betta are related and act very much alike. Especially paradise gourami

Avoid fish that have a similarly flowing tail like betta and you shouldn't have any problems.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Triport said:


> Mine in my 29 with the rasboras and rainbows doesn't have a hard time competing for food. He is right up at the top with them at feeding time. But they are all surface feeders so that might help. Certain tetras might be more of an issue where they strike at the surface from below like little piranhas.
> *
> A 118 *is* a really big tank that a long veil tailed Betta might struggle in. But shorter finned varieties or a bunch of female Bettas would probably be fine*.


Crucial!



Tyrant46290 said:


> That size tank you could actually have roughly 4 male betta without problems. Most people have female betta sororities. Females can be in larger groups.
> 
> Gourami and betta are related and act very much alike. Especially paradise gourami
> 
> Avoid fish that have a similarly flowing tail like betta and you shouldn't have any problems.


Can you show me an example of 4 males in a single tank? I've never heard of this before so it'd be interesting to see or even read about.



AquaAurora said:


> Betta spledens (aka the common betta found at stores with various tail types) are a low moving fish in comparison to most of the noes listed above. They also do not do well in strong current which are often needed to filter large tanks like yours. IMO i'd not keep one in a community simple because they'll have a harder time getting food from faster fish/get fins nipped by faster fish.
> IN regards to betta personality-some simply don't like to share.. I've also read from some betta owners who kept them with other micro fish (ember tetra if I recall correctly) the betta got along fine for about a year then started hunting the embers so had to be separated-so a betta getting along with otehr fish initially doesn't mean it will last.
> For a 118 gallon tank I'd chose a larger centerpiece fish than a betta and have maybe 1-2 large schooling fish groups and a cleaner fish like cory to get any missed food... but that's just me.


Care to give any examples. I really just want something that's plant friendly and wont gobble tetras.



Triport said:


> Currently have a male Betta in with dwarf rainbows and lambchop rasboras and he completely ignores them and a bunch of female Bettas in with assorted tetras, keyhole cichlids and other fish and they ignore them. First Betta I ever got when I was a kid immediately grabbed a neon by the head the second I put it in the tank and before I could net him out he ripped off half of a fancy guppies tail. So careful with small fish and nothing with long flowing fins he may mistake for another Betta.
> 
> Other than that you will probably be OK just be prepared in case your Betta is a jerk.


I have a 30G on stand by just in case.


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## kozlany (Feb 25, 2009)




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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

kozlany said:


> 20180629 0751571 - YouTube


I'm not quite sure what you're trying to show me here and so I have some questions.

What size tank is that?
What is your filtration?
How many fish are in there with the betta?

Thanks.


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## Shannon (Jul 26, 2018)

Ive had a male betta in my community tank (only 29 gallon) with plenty of plants and I found that as long as I keep fish that are generally smaller and less flashy than the betta (neon tetra, black tetra, even cherry barbs and some other varieties) he shows no signs of aggression. The exception is my angel fish who is much bigger but they get along well. Ive had my betta in that tank for a year or so


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hi Shannon

While looking into this I've found a few examples on forums, fb groups, and youtube of more than 1 betta male in community tanks. I started off not considering Betta Splendens because I was against keeping such a beautiful species isolated.

2 Males / 5 female in a 17gal tank


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Although you could probably keep multiple male betta splendens in a tank that large, you still run the risk of seeing large amounts of aggression as they work out their territories, and I personally think it presents more risk than reward. Yes there are a lot of sorority tanks out there that work well, but even they have issues with nipped fins, bullying, and occasional losses. There's also an equal if not greater number of sorority tanks that are torn down after massive failure. 

Another concern that I have is that they'd be out-competed in a tank that size, especially if you choose the long-finned variety of betta splendens.

Finally, betta splendens are often much better kept on their own. They have been bred over hundreds of years to attack other fish, hence the name "fighting fish". The best way to keep them happy imo, is to provide the right size tank (5-15g), with a low-flow filter, and plenty of live plants and spaces for them to explore. I have a betta in a planted 15g who spends all day exploring and guarding his "territory" but as soon as he sees me will flare and try to chase me off. He attacks flake like it's a real fish, shaking his head around to "kill" it. That said, I know that he's as happy as a fish can be, and has the best set-up to express his natural instincts with little to no outside stress.

If you're really set on having having bettas in your community tank, why not look into wild types? Betta imbellis are beautiful, and are supposedly suited to being kept in groups in peaceful community tanks.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Thelongsnail said:


> Although you could probably keep multiple male betta splendens in a tank that large, you still run the risk of seeing large amounts of aggression as they work out their territories, and I personally think it presents more risk than reward. Yes there are a lot of sorority tanks out there that work well, but even they have issues with nipped fins, bullying, and occasional losses. There's also an equal if not greater number of sorority tanks that are torn down after massive failure.
> 
> Another concern that I have is that they'd be out-competed in a tank that size, especially if you choose the long-finned variety of betta splendens.
> 
> ...


The allure VS reality :|

I don't think any betta will work well with the amount of flow from the FX6 so I'll have to rule out the species entirely for the 118G. I might get a 7 gal tank I've seen on offer and make that into a betta tank.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Just get short fin varieties or females. They have no problem with strong flow from a filter.


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## Hikari (Aug 15, 2018)

Jst thought I'd throw in my two cents, even though OP seems to have decided to get a smaller tank for the betta (probably for the best). I have a 10g community tank housing a single male betta. His tankmates were carefully selected after a ton of research, and things have gone well. I chose 6 harlequin rasboras and 5 pristella tetras, and put them in the tank first. The betta was added last, so he didn't have a chance to claim the tank as all his before the fact. Day one was him slowly going after any of the others in his way, to assert his dominance, but they were too fast for him to catch (heavy-finned bettas like veiltails swim slowly), and he was relatively chill for a betta. After that, things settled in. The tetras learned to avoid the betta, and the betta stopped bothering to try and chase them. Nowadays, it's peaceful. They even eat together no problem (the betta ignores everything but the food at feeding time). I've only lost one rasbora so far due to non-betta related circumstances, and it's been several months, so I'd call that a success.

I think another thing that helps is the tank is heavily planted for a 10g. Lots of little places for fish to swim and hide, and break up line of sight. Here's a pic (sorry for the bad quality though).










(the red guy is the betta, the blurs are some of the other fish, lol)

But yeah, just know a betta community tank IS possible, but it requires a lot of planning, specifically around the betta first and foremost, preferably lots of plants, and a little luck to get one with the right temperament.


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## VSA (Jun 13, 2017)

The thing is that there is no guarantee. I did betta plus harlequins too. It was ok for a while but feeding was a pain because he would always go after other fishes food too. They would also sometimes go after his food and as they zip towards the food would sometimes accidentally nio him. Eventually he went from calm to aggressive. It doesnt matter if the other fish are fast. A betta doesnt need to win a race to catch a fish. Mine got clever and figured out which way the other fish are likely to go and would ambush them.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

Have never kept males, they're gorgeous but always seem to come with troubles with all the stuff you read online! 

I've had 3 females, originally came together, one was continually picked on by the other two. 
Baby as she was called, a funny red eyed pink ugly kind of girl. 
The bully girls stayed together in a 15g and she went into a 29g with corys, Otos and Rainbows. She did so well, had a tendency to peck at the bottom but was the Queen of my tank for a couple of yrs! No picking on others or nastiness, she was brilliant 

Females are great, think just all Fighters have got massive personalities and let you know about it when you get to know them, M or F!!


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## ShermanGirl (Mar 5, 2015)

*Success with Betta and FX6*



RollaPrime said:


> The allure VS reality :|
> 
> I don't think any betta will work well with the amount of flow from the FX6 so I'll have to rule out the species entirely for the 118G. I might get a 7 gal tank I've seen on offer and make that into a betta tank.


I've got a 180 gallon with an FX6 and a Rena XL on it. I thought my concern valid when I found my Betta twice plastered around a pipe down flow of the FX6. I'd turn off the pump and let him continue on his way. Much to my surprise, I caught him doing it regularly on purpose. It's an 8ft tank and he used the outflow like an express lane, always trimming his fins to land wrapped against the pipe and hang out a while. It was a heavily planted tank so he had plenty of opportunity to be out of the flow if he wanted. I wondered how he got enough to eat with all the surface agitation and his super long fins but he did fine and lived out his life there.

I think like all fish, the larger the tank, the more personality and natural behaviors you see.

Bump:


RollaPrime said:


> The allure VS reality :|
> 
> I don't think any betta will work well with the amount of flow from the FX6 so I'll have to rule out the species entirely for the 118G. I might get a 7 gal tank I've seen on offer and make that into a betta tank.


I've got a 180 gallon with an FX6 and a Rena XL on it. I thought my concern valid when I found my Betta twice plastered around a pipe down flow of the FX6. I'd turn off the pump and let him continue on his way. Much to my surprise, I caught him doing it regularly on purpose. It's an 8ft tank and he used the outflow like an express lane, always trimming his fins to land wrapped against the pipe and hang out a while. It was a heavily planted tank so he had plenty of opportunity to be out of the flow if he wanted. I wondered how he got enough to eat with all the surface agitation and his super long fins but he did fine and lived out his life there.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hey guys.

Firstly, I just want to say that I appreciate the feedback from all of you. It means a ton to get some input from people who have kept the species before. In my own research I came across a lot of tanks on youtube where they were actively breaking all of the Betta Splenden rules. 

.No more than 1 male per tank
.Don't put males and females in the same tank

Etc etc etc

And it occurred to me that the rules could be broken with the right scape and more importantly, enough space. I spoke to a guy on a FB group who told me that with 118G I could have males and females and that a tank of that size could have 5/6 females and two males.

Ambition aside, in terms of scape I've decided to go with an island based scape using wood and rocks, inspired by this






MY aquarim is 151 X 51 X 66 CM using an FX6 for filtration and a ehiem surface skimmer. 

Although I decided against Bettas I aven't been able to find a replacement centerpiece.


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## VSA (Jun 13, 2017)

Do females not have egg issues when kept in the same tank as males?


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

In a tank that large they will probably be OK. They will fight at first but eventually will get bored with each other and establish a hierarchy and territories. They may tear each other up though and with torn fins you run the risk of secondary infections so just keep an eye on them. 

There are people who insist that you can't keep males and females together, there are people who insist you can't keep males together, and there are even people who insist you can't even keep females together. But people do it and they do OK. Just have to be ready to separate them if things go south and realize that there is a risk that they will kill each other. But IMO the larger the tank the less likely you are to have problems.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

Triport said:


> Just have to be ready to separate them if things go south and realize that there is a risk that they will kill each other. But IMO the larger the tank the less likely you are to have problems.


Very much this. 

The thing is, Bettas are territorial, like Gouramis. That history of breeding for aggression really just exaggerated that territorial behavior, making them guard it more fiercely, seek larger buffers between territories, etc. If you look at wild Bettas, like Imbellis, you see that the behavior is a lot closer to Gouramis we see in the trade. They can be territorial, but they generally can establish a pecking order like Gouramis can when given enough space and the right sex ratio. The problem is that with the long fins, folks tend not to put them into larger tanks, and these smaller tanks mean they will see the entire tank as their territory. 

That said, because there is so much variety in behavior in Splendens, Triport's comment here about being ready to separate them is crucial. I've learned you can spot the more aggressive individuals with some success, but it isn't perfect, and there's always exceptions. 

I also find that it's easier to keep Bettas from glass surfing from boredom/wanderlust in larger planted tanks. My latest Plakat was a rather aggressive glass surfer in the store's 10-15g display tank (where it ignored RCS, cories, and dwarf rasbora). He's been doing better in the 23g, and has turned more curious and less aggressive the more time he spends in the tank. Likes to play in the flow from the oversized canister on the tank too (it's sized for the 90P I want to upgrade to in a few months). 

I'd love to see how a Betta does in a large 118g tank, personally.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Kaiede said:


> Very much this.
> 
> The thing is, Bettas are territorial, like Gouramis. That history of breeding for aggression really just exaggerated that territorial behavior, making them guard it more fiercely, seek larger buffers between territories, etc. If you look at wild Bettas, like Imbellis, you see that the behavior is a lot closer to Gouramis we see in the trade. They can be territorial, but they generally can establish a pecking order like Gouramis can when given enough space and the right sex ratio. The problem is that with the long fins, folks tend not to put them into larger tanks, and these smaller tanks mean they will see the entire tank as their territory.
> 
> ...



Do you have the tank on the forum? I'd love to "see" it.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> Do you have the tank on the forum? I'd love to "see" it.


I don't have a journal thread for it, and I would probably wait until I upgrade it with the UNS 90P I've been looking at. But I can do a bit of a FTS if it helps. It's similar to a 20 long, but Zero Two seems to enjoy it. Especially now that the plants are starting to explode.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Kaiede said:


> I don't have a journal thread for it, and I would probably wait until I upgrade it with the UNS 90P I've been looking at. But I can do a bit of a FTS if it helps. It's similar to a 20 long, but Zero Two seems to enjoy it. Especially now that the plants are starting to explode.


It would definitely help. I can't wait to see it!


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

Not the best shot, the Green Neons don’t really like it when people walk by the tank. They mostly hate the motion. Sit nearby and they’ll pop back out. Zero Two stands out with the strong red color though.

The tank is half display, half experimental tank. Lots of plant variety as I try to figure out how things grow. The growth has only recently taken off because of fertilizer changes that have meant that instead of killing pennywort, I’m having to trim and replant weekly.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Kaiede said:


> Not the best shot, the Green Neons don’t really like it when people walk by the tank. They mostly hate the motion. Sit nearby and they’ll pop back out. Zero Two stands out with the strong red color though.
> 
> The tank is half display, half experimental tank. Lots of plant variety as I try to figure out how things grow. The growth has only recently taken off because of fertilizer changes that have meant that instead of killing pennywort, I’m having to trim and replant weekly.


Actually that's a great shot!

I really appreciate you posting this. I've learned a lot via this thread. Out of interest what fert change did you make?


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> Actually that's a great shot!
> 
> I really appreciate you posting this. I've learned a lot via this thread. Out of interest what fert change did you make?


I know I can get better if I used one of my better cameras instead of my phone. I also need to finish removing the leaves from all the dwarf water lettuce that died while medicating the tank, and fix some of the spots on the back of the tank where the black acrylic paint has come off the glass. 

Our water is ridiculously soft. Alkalinity and General Hardness are both < 1 dH according to the official report. After letting the water sit out of the tap, PH is 7-7.4, and GH is a bit higher than the report at ~2 dGH, last time I checked. I used to dose just Easy Green. 

I changed two things. One was to start supplementing Mineralize, which is a liquid GH booster by Seachem. Not huge amounts, but just enough to supply the Calcium and Magnesium that my water very much lacks with such low GH. About 1 dGH per week. Second was to address the lack of phosphates in the tanks. Turns out Easy Green has very little Phosphate in the mix. About 1/10th of what Thrive or UNS Plant Food contains in their mix. I gave UNS a try, and within a couple weeks, my two tanks were doing better. One had a lack of growth, the other had hair algae. 

I even talked to one of the employees in the store about Easy Green, and they apparently intentionally kept the phosphates low to try to avoid problems with too high phosphates in tanks through accumulation.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Hikari said:


> Jst thought I'd throw in my two cents, even though OP seems to have decided to get a smaller tank for the betta (probably for the best). I have a 10g community tank housing a single male betta. His tankmates were carefully selected after a ton of research, and things have gone well. I chose 6 harlequin rasboras and 5 pristella tetras, and put them in the tank first. The betta was added last, so he didn't have a chance to claim the tank as all his before the fact. Day one was him slowly going after any of the others in his way, to assert his dominance, but they were too fast for him to catch (heavy-finned bettas like veiltails swim slowly), and he was relatively chill for a betta. After that, things settled in. The tetras learned to avoid the betta, and the betta stopped bothering to try and chase them. Nowadays, it's peaceful. They even eat together no problem (the betta ignores everything but the food at feeding time). I've only lost one rasbora so far due to non-betta related circumstances, and it's been several months, so I'd call that a success.
> 
> I think another thing that helps is the tank is heavily planted for a 10g. Lots of little places for fish to swim and hide, and break up line of sight. Here's a pic (sorry for the bad quality though).
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how I missed this post but I did until now? I blame the site! 

That said he's a gorgeous betta and congrats on the harmonious tank. I haven't decided one way or another. I'm trapped between conventional wisdom and long held guidelines vs what I'm seeing on various social media platforms. I sorority might be possible with short tailed varieties but I haven't decided yet. I might get to the LFS on stocking day and go in another direction completely. But this species of fish is simply to gorgeous to dismiss outright.

Bump:


Kaiede said:


> I know I can get better if I used one of my better cameras instead of my phone. I also need to finish removing the leaves from all the dwarf water lettuce that died while medicating the tank, and fix some of the spots on the back of the tank where the black acrylic paint has come off the glass.
> 
> Our water is ridiculously soft. Alkalinity and General Hardness are both < 1 dH according to the official report. After letting the water sit out of the tap, PH is 7-7.4, and GH is a bit higher than the report at ~2 dGH, last time I checked. I used to dose just Easy Green.
> 
> ...



I'm in the UK and we have the worst water in Europe. Official estimations put every glass of water from the tap as being recycled 8-10 times prior. My nitrates are high in the warmer months lower in the colder with the reverse happening for phosphates. My TDS is about 400-500 so any shrimp besides locally bred Cherry and Amano don't survive. So my ferts situation has to include a solution that doesn't contain Phos and Nitrate.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

RollaPrime said:


> That said he's a gorgeous betta and congrats on the harmonious tank. I haven't decided one way or another. I'm trapped between conventional wisdom and long held guidelines vs what I'm seeing on various social media platforms. I sorority might be possible with short tailed varieties but I haven't decided yet. I might get to the LFS on stocking day and go in another direction completely. But this species of fish is simply to gorgeous to dismiss outright.


Yeah, I'd definitely consider it. With the right temperament and tankmates, Spendens can do well. My local LFS puts all of their Bettas in community tanks with compatible fish. They have had the occasional issue, but it tends to be infrequent.

I won't lie, having a Betta will put limits on what else can go in the tank. But those limits aren't nearly as harsh as conventional wisdom suggests. But conventional wisdom is about helping those new to the hobby get a "foolproof" setup, or close to one as possible. And with Splendens, the reality is that the only foolproof setup is a Betta-only tank. However, it isn't that hard to make a community tank with Splendens work. It does mean you have to pay closer attention to the Betta you pick to try to avoid "angry bois", and keep a closer eye on the tank and the behaviors/health of the fish compared to a purely peaceful community tank. 

I've never kept a Betta-only tank in my year or so in the hobby. It hasn't been perfect, but in my case I've been lucky that the only time the Betta was the cause of trouble was when I knew it could be a problem, but others had shown success, so I wanted to give it a shot. I did have to separate them, but I was able to do it before harm came to any of the fish.


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## GobyWan (May 10, 2018)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm in the UK and we have the worst water in Europe. Official estimations put every glass of water from the tap as being recycled 8-10 times prior.


Wow didn't know that we were that bad!!


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## john10001 (Jun 30, 2018)

I'd be more concerned about my Siamese Fighter getting fin nipped by other fish. I think with the right tank mates they are fine in a community tank if the water is not fast moving. I'd avoid similar types of fish though like Gourami and Paradise fish. I wouldn't keep guppies in the same tank and certain barbs and tetras might be a problem.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

GobyWan said:


> Wow didn't know that we were that bad!!


Unfortunately












john10001 said:


> I'd be more concerned about my Siamese Fighter getting fin nipped by other fish. I think with the right tank mates they are fine in a community tank if the water is not fast moving. I'd avoid similar types of fish though like Gourami and Paradise fish. I wouldn't keep guppies in the same tank and certain barbs and tetras might be a problem.


I think Fish day will come and I wont have a centerpiece.


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## kozlany (Feb 25, 2009)

RollaPrime said:


> I'm not quite sure what you're trying to show me here and so I have some questions.
> 
> What size tank is that?
> What is your filtration?
> ...



It's a 29 gallon.
the filter is a sunsun 304?


How many fish? hundreds. I seriously need to thin the herd. I suppose he eats a few babies but not nearly enough.

Bump: Guppies are fine with them. See the video I posted on the first page.





john10001 said:


> I'd be more concerned about my Siamese Fighter getting fin nipped by other fish. I think with the right tank mates they are fine in a community tank if the water is not fast moving. I'd avoid similar types of fish though like Gourami and Paradise fish. I wouldn't keep guppies in the same tank and certain barbs and tetras might be a problem.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Ok so I have been going back and forth over this eventual stocking. We've spoken at length about rules and how they seem traditional more so than pratical, my guess is they were in place about splendens pre social media and the ability for everyone to "share" their tanks.

One rule that I believe we can break with confidence is "not too many shoaling" fish. I've seen too many examples on social media (facebook/youtube) of Betta's not just cohabiting with males, but being part of the community with lots of other fish and thriving.

Another rule I believe we can dismiss is "not keeping similar species with betta splendens." This is perhaps more tricky but I believe easily breakable. I think the key here is a combination of space + temperament. After speaking to more than a few people on the betta forums, some splendens wont even consider other gourami as a related species. Which opens up the potential of keeping gourami. I'm leaning towards Pearl Gourami (4/5) with a playful splenden.

They are bred for aggression, obviously. But I have visited a breeder and seen more than a few in LFS (i have been Betta window shopping since my last post) and they seem to vary in temperament. I've seen some that with flare and coil if you so much as place your finger on the glass. Others that seem playful and curious interacting with other fish and even some that when housed next to another betta don't flare despite the betta next to them desperate for a fight.

In short, I'm going to try to keep a singular splenden male in a community with larger gourami (peaceful) species, in a heavily planted tank.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Well, I'd like to see how that works out. More likely if you find a very mellow, relaxed betta. Gouramis can be territorial too, though... . . .


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

JJ09 said:


> Well, I'd like to see how that works out. More likely if you find a very mellow, relaxed betta. Gouramis can be territorial too, though... . . .


Yeah. I say try it, but be ready just in case.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

JJ09 said:


> Well, I'd like to see how that works out. More likely if you find a very mellow, relaxed betta. Gouramis can be territorial too, though... . . .


Larger and more "peaceful" Pearl Gourami might just be my best bet. I think it'll come down to how I introduce the Betta. I hope that introducing him after a day or two after the pearls, and giving the male pearls some females to court will ultimately be the right balance. 



Kaiede said:


> Yeah. I say try it, but be ready just in case.


It could go horribly wrong to the point where five minutes in the most peaceful betta I found turns out to be a war monger. But I'm confident I've done enough research to the point where I can try with some degree of confidence. I'm contemplating starting a journal. I'll post a link if I do since I'll inadvertently need your collective advice if I do.

I'm having some trouble with my fishless cycle but that's literally a different thread entirely.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

Rollaprime, have you kept bettas before? Just curious.

It sounds like it could be really interesting and is definitely a journal that I'd follow should you make one! Keep us updated 

Bump: Rollaprime, have you kept bettas before? Just curious.

It sounds like it could be really interesting and is definitely a journal that I'd follow should you make one! Keep us updated


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## VSA (Jun 13, 2017)

Just my opinion but I think the whole timing of introduction to help a betta settle is a huge myth. Firstly, I don't believe it is ever truely safe to say a betta is mellow as he can change at any time. Secondly, its territorial traits are not a taught thing. It is his instinct. It can't be trained out of him or changed by how he is introduced.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Thelongsnail said:


> Rollaprime, have you kept bettas before? Just curious.
> 
> It sounds like it could be really interesting and is definitely a journal that I'd follow should you make one! Keep us updated
> 
> ...



I've never kept a Betta Splenden before. I've admired them for years but the strict rules surrounding their stocking has always been a deterrent until I saw most of those rules being broken successfully online.

Seeing vids of male bettas as part of a community facebook/youtube/reddit and other related forums not only blew my mind, but made me start researching the possibilities.



VSA said:


> Just my opinion but I think the whole timing of introduction to help a betta settle is a huge myth. Firstly, I don't believe it is ever truely safe to say a betta is mellow as he can change at any time. Secondly, its territorial traits are not a taught thing. It is his instinct. It can't be trained out of him or changed by how he is introduced.


Indeed. 

But when it comes to territory, from what I've "learned," bettas tend to claim a relatively small area as their territory not an entire tank. And with 450L it's possible that he'll be content even if his territory changes daily.


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## Thelongsnail (Dec 2, 2015)

It may well work, I'll certainly be happy to see if it does! As others have said, a lot depends on individual personalities. 

There's no way I'd keep mine as part of a community of any size as he's VERY territorial over the 17 gallons that he has and is quite nasty with people (and even plants that move in a funny way) especially when building bubble nests. Maybe one of the three males I've had would have been fine, and one of two females was fine (a 15g with CPDs.) Just worth remembering that social media often only shows the good parts of fishkeeping and often covers up the rest, especially in the betta keeping world.

Aside from that, make sure that he's able to get enough food! Do you think you'll go with a long-finned or plakat? My current male has very long fins and so is not a strong swimmer (he's also a bit of a tail-biter) and is developing sight problems due to issues re: dragonscale genetics. Really looking forwards to seeing pics of whichever you choose, there's so many beautiful bettas out there!


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Thelongsnail said:


> It may well work, I'll certainly be happy to see if it does! As others have said, a lot depends on individual personalities.
> 
> There's no way I'd keep mine as part of a community of any size as he's VERY territorial over the 17 gallons that he has and is quite nasty with people (and even plants that move in a funny way) especially when building bubble nests. Maybe one of the three males I've had would have been fine, and one of two females was fine (a 15g with CPDs.) Just worth remembering that social media often only shows the good parts of fishkeeping and often covers up the rest, especially in the betta keeping world.
> 
> Aside from that, make sure that he's able to get enough food! Do you think you'll go with a long-finned or plakat? My current male has very long fins and so is not a strong swimmer (he's also a bit of a tail-biter) and is developing sight problems due to issues re: dragonscale genetics. Really looking forwards to seeing pics of whichever you choose, there's so many beautiful bettas out there!


Definitely a plakat.

I've been to several LFS and spent some time observing but did most of my observation at a private breeder. They do differ in temperament, at least from what I've seen. I'll have a 20G and 50G on standby just in case it doesn't work out.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Bumped because I'm on the cusp of seeing how this all plays out. 

I do have one final question for the thread participants... Or rather some food for thought... Given that it takes a few seconds for two Betta Splendens to start fighting if introduced to the same tank, how would you gauge aggression from a single betta in a community tank? I'm guessing the goal is no flaring or actual attacks on other fauna. But in my estimation, I think some flaring is to be expected. In the research I've done it's seems clear (or possible) that flaring isn't always a sign of aggression? I think it can also be a sign of excitement.

I've purchased a plakat male from a private breeder in my city. I chose this method because I didn't like the selections in my lfs' and had a little time to observe the behavior(s) than I would have at the LFS. I pick him up later this week. 

Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!!


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Any issue I ever had with a Betta in a community tank was realized immediately. The moment I put him in the tank he attacked other fish (violently not just nipping which isn't usually a huge deal). If the Betta ignores the other fish and seems to just be minding his own business you will probably be OK. But as with all living animals there is no guarantee they will behave how you want them to so I would watch them for as long as you are able initially.


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## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

My betta Ruby continually flares at the snails in his tank- but so far has not nipped any (in 6 months). He has never paid attention to the shrimps- except to dart away when they bother him- but I am still expecting someday I might come home to torn-up shrimps. I've heard of bettas acting totally chill until one day there was just shrimp carnage. 

I had a betta that worried me around other fish- I never witnessed it attacking but it would follow the platies around the tank, they showed signs of stress and starting having ripped fins in the morning. I guess he was going after them at night. Later I tried to keep pygmy cories with him and he stalked them- it looked ominous so I took them out again. He never flared though, just followed and _bit_. So I don't think flaring is necessarily evidence the fish will or will not go after tankmates.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

To give another example, my Betta who is now in a ~48 gal 90P tank with 14 Green Neons. This leaves the tank fairly under stocked, but the Betta sometimes charges the Neons. He’s normally pretty chill. He’s not trying to injure them per se, just chase them away from “his spot”.

Turns out, he was guarding a bubble nest with this behavior. Something he’s never built until the new tank.

So as conditions in their environment changes, you can and will see the Betta’s behavior change too.


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## RollaPrime (Jul 27, 2018)

Tomorrow is D Day!





Triport said:


> Any issue I ever had with a Betta in a community tank was realized immediately. The moment I put him in the tank he attacked other fish (violently not just nipping which isn't usually a huge deal). If the Betta ignores the other fish and seems to just be minding his own business you will probably be OK. But as with all living animals there is no guarantee they will behave how you want them to so I would watch them for as long as you are able initially.


This is really useful info. I figured it'd be immediate especially with the amount of tetras and pearl gourami that are cousins of a splenden. 



JJ09 said:


> My betta Ruby continually flares at the snails in his tank- but so far has not nipped any (in 6 months). He has never paid attention to the shrimps- except to dart away when they bother him- but I am still expecting someday I might come home to torn-up shrimps. I've heard of bettas acting totally chill until one day there was just shrimp carnage.
> 
> I had a betta that worried me around other fish- I never witnessed it attacking but it would follow the platies around the tank, they showed signs of stress and starting having ripped fins in the morning. I guess he was going after them at night. Later I tried to keep pygmy cories with him and he stalked them- it looked ominous so I took them out again. He never flared though, just followed and _bit_. So I don't think flaring is necessarily evidence the fish will or will not go after tankmates.



I used flaring to choose the betta. The seller had them lined up in these tiny containers where they could see each other. Some spent every second fighting the glass that separated them the one I chose flared on occasion, far less in comparison while the bettas either side were focused on preparing for war.




Kaiede said:


> To give another example, my Betta who is now in a ~48 gal 90P tank with 14 Green Neons. This leaves the tank fairly under stocked, but the Betta sometimes charges the Neons. He’s normally pretty chill. He’s not trying to injure them per se, just chase them away from “his spot”.
> 
> Turns out, he was guarding a bubble nest with this behavior. Something he’s never built until the new tank.
> 
> So as conditions in their environment changes, you can and will see the Betta’s behavior change too.


I spent a lot of time reading up bettas in the wild. They seem to pick a spot and guard it and so I'm hoping he at best, choses a spot and guards that, I'm guessing that spot will change day to day but that'd be better than full and sustained aggression.


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