# Why not grow Algae?



## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I assume you are referring to green hair algae? This is the most vile of of algaes. If I see a bit of BGA or BBA starting to form in my tank I will note it but not be too concerned. If I see a bit of hair algae I will have nightmares of a devastated tank for days to come. BGA will go away if you balance the tank. BBA will also (mostly) go away. But hair algae is forever, always lurking, waiting, for the right moment to pounce as soon as something goes wrong (dead fish, CO2 runs out, etc.)

There are several types of hair algae. I'm guessing you have Spirogyra, which is the worst type. It pops up after ammonia spikes (as would occur from dying plants) and loves the same conditions higher order plants do. You can look up pictures online - it has somewhat of a spiraled appearance to it.


Some suggestions (that you have not already addressed):

No need for GH booster. Hair algae tends to do better in hard water.

Cut back on the dosing. Focus on getting nutrients into the substrate (root tabs, etc.) and out of the water.

Quick fix. I know you said you didn't want this but once Spirogyra is established it only laughs at your attempts to 'balance' the tank and pull all of it out before doubling itself in days. I used to be against quick fixes but in the case of an established infection pulling it out and trying less severe methods to no avail for months wears down on the soul. 

If you can remove your livestock (except the usual pond snails which tolerate it) to somewhere else, API Algaefix will kill it dead. Syringe it over the affected areas with the filters off for a little bit. After a few hours (or a few days at most) it will start turning white - that's how you know it's dying. Make sure if high your water level is low and there's any areas of algae up near the top of the inner tank glass to clean these areas well, lest the spores survive and repopulate your tank when these areas become full of water.

Afterwards, stuff the tank with as many weedy stems and floaters as you can (I recommend an overnight quarantine with Algaefix to prevent reintroduction). Reconsider your light and get some PAR readings if you can (many local clubs have a meter available for borrowing). And add a bunch of amano shrimp. Not just a wimpy small group (it always amuses me when people think a few shrimp in a huge tank will make much of a difference) but an army. Around 50 or so (1 per gallon) should do the trick.

Yes this post may seem harsh but hair algae, especially Spirogyra, is not to be taken lightly.


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## blairgerman (Jan 12, 2017)

Thank you for your Candor!

Can I observe the spiral structure with naked eye?

I saw a thread with pics of the diff hair algae types, but lost it.

I'm really scared about adding meds to my system and have always avoided it. Will that product leave anything behind?

It sounds REALLY tempting as I've heard this is a tough battle!


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes the spiral structure is somewhat visible on the macroscopic level. Here is a guide with some pictures. Here is another good site. Of all the types Spirogyra is the worst and is the one that has inspired my vitriole. Other types are also bad but slightly more manageable through conventional methods.

I used to be that way too with medications and quick fixes. That changed after I had a case of BGA so virulent that months of different attempted 'soft' treatments (blackouts, manual removal) continued to fail. I'd spend hours painstakingly cleaning it from plants, only to have it return in full force by the next week. That changed after I always battled hair algae in my tank for years, constantly removing it and attempting to balance the tank to no avail while my plants were smothered. If I weren't such a stubborn person I may have quit planted tanks if it weren't for the occasional quick fix when needed. 

Now my philosophy on them is that for 90% of algae (BGA), smart systems design from the start is optimal, with astute observation and early prevention/treatment using 'soft' methods (manual removal, algae eaters, tank cleanliness) working well. For this 90%, quick fixes are only needed for extreme established cases, as in literally every surface inside the tank is afflicted. 

But with hair algae I will not shy away from using chemicals even when it is just starting out. Hair algae does not listen to reason. Once it is in your tank it is there forever, just waiting for the next management slip-up to smother everything in sight. It is not just a case of the oft-stated, "Oh, algae just shows up if things are imbalanced", which tends to be true for other types. I have had tanks humming along wonderfully, yet all hell breaks loose as soon as a bit of hair algae is introduced. I have also had tanks with poorly designed setups or terrible accidents happen (mass livestock or plant die-offs), yet no hair algae. Hair algae is simple - if it is not introduced into the tank, it will not appear.

Now that I have found a surefire way to kill hair algae and prevent it from my tanks, I am free to do other things like aquascape and actually enjoy my tanks instead of pulling out enough algae every few days to start an alternative energy company. I wish I had known about this years ago; it would've saved me a lot of time and plants!

Of course this requires some vigilance with new plants - every plant is carefully inspected for hair algae. Any seen is removed. All plants get the Algaefix treatment regardless of how clean they look. In the case of treating an in-tank outbreak, you mustn't shy away from the full dose and make sure every last bit is dead, or it will come back eventually (I made this mistake the first time). It is toxic to shrimp and can be tough on fish, so make sure to move out your livestock for the course of treatment.

There are some old threads on here discussing the API Algaefix chemical and optimal usage. IIRC it oxidizes and breaks down somewhat rapidly. I can't remember the exact time frame but it was somewhere in the range of 24 hours. Generally after an in-tank treatment one does a water change to get rid of the dead algae, so this combined with the natural breakdown should mean it doesn't leave any residues. It's an organic compound, not a metal (like copper fish meds), so shouldn't remain in the silicone or anything like that. 

I leave all new plants in water with Algaefix for 2-3 days. After this time I have no troubles when introducing them to tanks with shrimp and fish.


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## blairgerman (Jan 12, 2017)

Great links, Thanks! Rhizoclonium and Spirogyra sure look similar in a tank. I may have to put this under a microscope out of curiosity.

I'm going to consider algeafix after a few more days without seeing a change.

I didn't know these types of algae liked hard water, I was thinking the opposite.

Algae quarantine sounds very smart, it always seemed impossible to me to keep a perfectly tight system, but as I learn more about this product, it seems effective in light of it's dangers - although many horror stories seem to be from ppl who are not pulling their fish when treating.

Thanks for the info!


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

You're welcome! I've used Algaefix on multiple types of hair algae with success; the exact id just determines how concerned and vigorous with treatment you need to be.

I don't know if there's any literature about water hardness but I find this to be true from my experience (as do other hobbyists I've spoke to). In soft water types like Spirogyra can still propagate once things get bad enough but there is a noticeable difference. Also Cladophora I find doesn't really survive in soft water.In my hard water tanks hair algaes were horridly virulent. For example, I have an old low tech ten gallon tank (low light, no dosing, no CO2) that has been running for years. Back when I used my hard tap water, hair algae grew wild. After switching to soft remineralized RO/DI water, it barely survived (adding a lot of Amano shrimp finished off the stragglers for good). 

You're welcome! I hope that after all my struggles and battles with this that the information I've gained can help others avoid the same difficulties.


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## blairgerman (Jan 12, 2017)

I'll leave the hardener out of next wc. Tap is at 8 degress, but I think I've got a api pillow around somewhere. Will update on algaefix. Thx!


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## Pattern8 (Dec 9, 2015)

Axelrodi202 said:


> You're welcome! I've used Algaefix on multiple types of hair algae with success; the exact id just determines how concerned and vigorous with treatment you need to be.
> 
> I don't know if there's any literature about water hardness but I find this to be true from my experience (as do other hobbyists I've spoke to). In soft water types like Spirogyra can still propagate once things get bad enough but there is a noticeable difference. Also Cladophora I find doesn't really survive in soft water.In my hard water tanks hair algaes were horridly virulent. For example, I have an old low tech ten gallon tank (low light, no dosing, no CO2) that has been running for years. Back when I used my hard tap water, hair algae grew wild. After switching to soft remineralized RO/DI water, it barely survived (adding a lot of Amano shrimp finished off the stragglers for good).
> 
> You're welcome! I hope that after all my struggles and battles with this that the information I've gained can help others avoid the same difficulties.


I too have been battling with this crazy hair algae for months...and it's killing my soul. I continue to pull out massive amounts of this stuff only to have it reappear. I have a very large colony of red cherry shrimp so I'm not sure if the product you recommended will be the best for me...though it may be the only option we have. I've been considering purchasing one of those nano twinstar devices that claim to kill hair algae. At this point I'll try anything


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

@blairgerman you can definitely skip the GH booster, 8 degrees is plenty. I wouldn't be so sure about using the softener pillow. If it replaces calcium and magnesium with sodium then that leads to its own problems. Your tap is probably fine. When I refer to bad experiences with hair algae in hard water, I'm talking about 15+ dGH.
@Pattern8 if it's at all possible to relocate the shrimp during treatment I would recommend Algaefix. IIRC the twinstar devices work via altering the oxidation-reduction potential of the water. I don't have any experience with them personally, but seem to have read mixed reviews. And Algaefix is much cheaper.


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## maxhrbal (Mar 19, 2016)

Definitely the worst type of algae! I agree in that conventional methods don't seem to work so well on this stuff...once it's established, it's there to stay and requires some more extreme measures. @Axelrodi202 gave some great advice so I'll try not to reiterate too much. I've heard horror stories about API algae fix but I gave it a go and I think it saved my tank, with no consequences. It took a few weeks of dosing + manual removal. Manual removal is pretty hard, I had to sacrifice many of my plants, or cut them back to almost nothing. What was funny, there were filaments that grew so long, through the entire filter and back out the outtake [emoji23]. I kept my fish in the whole time, but if possible I'd also recommend removing them so that you can use it more liberally than I did. I was extremely careful with dosing algae fix. I dosed exactly as the directions instructed, except less frequently, and I'd perform a large water change prior to the next dose. I also continued my excel doses, dosed very little nutrients and not as often. After manual removal and 2-3 weeks of treatment, the algae stoped spreading/growing and slowly but surely started showing signs of defeat. Eventually I won the battle and used the opportunity to rescape the tank. I'm now always on the lookout for this stuff, and keep algaefix on hand. Anyway that was my experience...didn't kill my fish but I hear more horror stories than success stories so I don't recommend dosing with livestock. It also did not seem to harm any BB colonies in the tank or the filter but I can't say with confidence, that it has no affect on it at all. Use extreme caution haha. I've used it with corys, platys, snails, and Otos with no "obvious" problems to their health. Haven't tried it with any other species. 


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

More specifically I find that it's tough on Otocinclus. It didn't kill them but it was obvious they weren't doing well after three days. It shouldn't affect bacteria. 

Length of treatment will depend on how bad it is. In my latest tank, one day was enough because it was only a few strands. More severe cases may take consecutive treatments. I have success splitting up the suggested dose (for three days) into more frequent daily ones. Temporarily leave the filters and pumps off right after injection.


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## maxhrbal (Mar 19, 2016)

Axelrodi202 said:


> More specifically I find that it's tough on Otocinclus. It didn't kill them but it was obvious they weren't doing well after three days. It shouldn't affect bacteria.
> 
> Length of treatment will depend on how bad it is. In my latest tank, one day was enough because it was only a few strands. More severe cases may take consecutive treatments. I have success splitting up the suggested dose (for three days) into more frequent daily ones. Temporarily leave the filters and pumps off right after injection.




My ottos were fine with my treatments. No worries there. Why do you suggest turning off the filter then if it doesn't harm BB? I figured that's why you suggested it?!?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I actually harvest the stuff outdoors to feed to fry. I noticed it dies and degrades quickly under low light.


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## Tvadna (Jan 17, 2013)

Spot treat it with hydrogen peroxide and an eye dropper. You can also remove all of the fish and shrimp and hit the whole tank with a larger dose of hydrogen peroxide and nuke it. That always kills the hair algae for me.

Otherwise remove as much as possible manually and then add an SAE or a Florida Flag Fish and don't feed them. They will resort to eating the algae.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

maxhrbal said:


> Why do you suggest turning off the filter then if it doesn't harm BB? I figured that's why you suggested it?!?


I only suggeste turning it off right after adding the chemical, say 15-30 minutes. This is so that there's no flow to move the chemical away from the affected areas. Let the algae 'bathe' in it so to speak.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

IMO you are on the right track to reduce light intensity. also agree you are right that you need to beef up your plant mass after a heavy loss. that is definitely not a good thing and can swing the balance of your tank for the worse pretty easily.

initially I think you generally know what you are doing and are just running too much light when you really don't need to be.

i don't see you listing any plants that require high light in your setup so there may not be a need to blast the tank. swords, anacharis, repens are not plants that 'need' high light. generally my experience with most algae is that if you don't have too much light and your plants are healthy and growing nicely then algae will not thrive. this of course requires a lot of healthy, growing, densely planted plants which it sounds like you have

keep things clean... letting plants die is a sure way to bring up algae outbreaks.

IMO I wouldn't even worry about clearing algae off of new plants. People get paranoid about 'introducing' certain algae into their tanks. This is nonsense if you ask me... if algae is thriving then you have issues. period. If a new plant I have has a bit of algae on it I can prettymuch guarantee it will naturally just disappear over a few weeks given the plant grows nicely.

if the conditions for algae to thrive are not present then you will not have to worry so much. sounds like you are 'walking the tightrope' with your tank (likely due to more than enough light / ferts). if a little misstep causes an algae explosion you likely have larger issues that need to be solved. nuking algae with chemicals is great to get a head-start and give your plants an advantage... BUT just be wary that it can happen again unless you make long-term changes.

also take some pics of your tank. often when trying to give advice I envision your tank a certain way. it may be a lot better / worse off... pics help a lot. basically, i've seen topics claiming 'densely planted, healthy plants, etc...' and then the pics come and they are a disaster. also the other way around when people have generally amazingly healthy tanks and are worried about a spec of algae.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

klibs said:


> if algae is thriving then you have issues


This, I use the same water indoors as outdoors, the outdoor water grows algae.
No matter how much algae I bring indoors for food it refuses to take hold in my low light tanks.

If you can see more than 10 to 15% of your substrate, you are not densely planted.


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## Pattern8 (Dec 9, 2015)

Tvadna said:


> Spot treat it with hydrogen peroxide and an eye dropper. You can also remove all of the fish and shrimp and hit the whole tank with a larger dose of hydrogen peroxide and nuke it. That always kills the hair algae for me.
> 
> Otherwise remove as much as possible manually and then add an SAE or a Florida Flag Fish and don't feed them. They will resort to eating the algae.


As an experiment I removed globs of it and let it sit in hydrogen peroxide straight from the bottle without diluting it further with water. I let it sit for about 30 min and while there was some bubbling I didn't see any other change in it. Perhaps because I've become so frustrated with it and was disgusted that it didn't give out a dying scream or beg for mercy that I just tossed it. Maybe will try again and wait longer. I did however order algaefix. I'm desperate not to just control this stuff but to eradicate it!


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## Pattern8 (Dec 9, 2015)

klibs said:


> IMO you are on the right track to reduce light intensity. also agree you are right that you need to beef up your plant mass after a heavy loss. that is definitely not a good thing and can swing the balance of your tank for the worse pretty easily.
> 
> initially I think you generally know what you are doing and are just running too much light when you really don't need to be.
> 
> ...


You've often given great advise concerning algae. Indeed, I am in the process of reducing my lighting. However this stuff just seems different to me. Good water circulation, large plant mass, Co2..... it still thrives. 
I would be willing to take you up on your guarantee though and send you some of it to see if you can get it to disappear ;-)


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Nordic said:


> This, I use the same water indoors as outdoors, the outdoor water grows algae.
> No matter how much algae I bring indoors for food it refuses to take hold in my low light tanks.
> 
> If you can see more than 10 to 15% of your substrate, you are not densely planted.


exactly

when I started out I used to think high light tanks were always a tightrope balancing act where at any moment an algae explosion could happen. this is not the case in an established and properly balanced tank and if this is your experience then you have larger issue at work. being scared of algae spreading after 'introducing' a small amount quite frankly means you have already lost the battle and provided the conditions for algae to thrive

99% of the time it is too much light combined with not densely planted enough and/or plants not healthy


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Pattern8 said:


> You've often given great advise concerning algae. Indeed, I am in the process of reducing my lighting. However this stuff just seems different to me. Good water circulation, large plant mass, Co2..... it still thrives.
> I would be willing to take you up on your guarantee though and send you some of it to see if you can get it to disappear ;-)


point me to (or PM me) some pics of your tank with info on your setup and I'll let you know what I think. Don't want to hijack this thread. I have dealt with hair algae in the past and been able to overcome it (assuming it is the same type we are talking about...). I will agree with you that it did not respond well to chemicals vs other algaes I have seen (BBA, BGA, etc). If it is the only type of algae you still face then you are probably close to winning...

I would love to take on that challenge but am going to wuss out because I would be absolutely devastated if it did in fact ruin my tank. not willing to walk the walk on that one lol. I have definitely received many plants with BBA, BGA, and many other forms of algae on some of it and it goes away just about every time. if it doesn't disappear it certainly does not spread and I have stopped worrying. IMO people just 'click' and understand how to avoid algae in their setups over time. my realization was that I just used way too much light and needed more healthy thriving plants. Plant density is CRUCIAL with high light IMO. Sure, my growth wasn't as explosive as it once was but it is definitely worth it avoid cleaning up algae. I used to struggle really badly and have since only gotten better on avoiding it.

generally run medium light until things REALLY fill in and then start to ramp it up if you feel like it. when you have really dense bunches of stems with good growth then algae really starts to vanish.

OP might have issues because they use plants like swords and anacharis. anacharis from what I hear can grow crazy fast under the right conditions and can probably do a number on battling algae. However, they need to be in ABUNDANCE to warrant the use of high light. This is why I need pics... if the tank is like 2 huge swords with a bit of anacharis then high light is not the way to go. if it's massive, healthy bunches of anacharis that is a very different story.

growing ALL of my species of plants at 100% health is a different story though... I always have 1 or 2 species that I just CANNOT get to grow nicely no matter what I try...


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Algae spores need two things, light, and ammonia. 
I always say people loose the algae war long before they see the first algae, by using high light on newly planted tanks, where there is no vegetative growth while the roots heal and form.
All that extra light does not go to waste. Remember even if your test says there is no ammonia, there IS ammonia everywhere a plant is damaged or a dead leaf is decaying, stopping fertiliser would just compound this and cause new types of algae to form.

Cut the light as much as you can get away with for your plants fora few days and watch it wane.


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## Vidikron (May 21, 2015)

For the record, Excel will melt Anacharis. From your first post it sounds like you started using Excel to battle the BHA? Is that correct? If so, that might be one reason your Anacharis experienced such a heavy die off.


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## blairgerman (Jan 12, 2017)

Whoa, that's a wealth of information!


Lemme get a pic and hobble together a response when I get home.


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## Rinfish (Aug 16, 2015)

This thread is super helpful! I'm battling this exact algae right now, and all the suggestions are giving me hope!
@klibs I think its a great suggestion to start at medium light and work your way to high light later on. It never occurred to me that that would be the best process, so I appreciate you mentioning it! I figured high light + lots of nutrients + enough co2 would out compete, and any lower light would throw the tank off balance. *sigh*


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

@klibs has posted some great suggestions and information, though I do disagree with him slightly on algae balancing itself out. Yes, 90% of algae (including the much-dreaded BGA and BBA) will balance itself out given the proper conditions. However I find Spirogyra in particular loves the same conditions that plants do so warrants some special consideration.



Rinfish said:


> @klibs I think its a great suggestion to start at medium light and work your way to high light later on. It never occurred to me that that would be the best process, so I appreciate you mentioning it! I figured high light + lots of nutrients + enough co2 would out compete, and any lower light would throw the tank off balance. *sigh*


Plants don't actually need the super strong blazing lights that most people think they do.  'Medium light' (30-50 PAR at substrate) will grow most plants that you'd ever want to keep, and even the truly light-demanding plants only need some tens of micromols more (the 100-200 PAR at substrate some people run on their tanks is superfluous if you ask me). By providing excessive lights, nutrients, and CO2 you can grow a great tank of plants assuming you have enough weedy ones to use it all up. But if this is not the case something else less desirable will step in to use all those resources. It would be like eating a ton of food, not exercising, and expecting it all to go to muscle. :tongue:

In a new tank or one where a good portion of the plants are new (say after a rescape) it is best to use less of everything - lights, CO2, and nutrients. Gradually increase as the plants start growing.


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## jordie416 (Jul 1, 2016)

I had really bad spiro but I beat it without any meds. Here is exactly what I did. 

1) 3 day blackout

2) after blackout I removed all affected plants and sprayed with hydrogen peroxide. I then cut and replanted tops. 

3) Lowered lights and started doing water changes every 5 days instead of 7. 

I also dosed with excel but I'm not sure if it made a difference. 

The spiro was trying to make a come back but I removed any affected plants immediately and manually removed any spiro, especially from my moss. 

Good luck!


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## evil nick (Oct 20, 2014)

doesnt excel help control algea? I know my buddy had an outbreak and he spot treated with excel and it worked. He lost some sensitive plants but its a trade off. 
Also maybe invest in a UV sterilizer to use during outbreaks.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

In a few months, the plants will help sink a bit more of the excess waste (it can trap nitrates in the roots though), and you may be abe to go back to a longer period between changes.


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## BROMLaar (Sep 11, 2016)

Algae spores get triggered with ammonia and light so if you keep the plants healthy and don't have anything decaying in the tank then algae will stay at bay. When algae does pop up for some reason like maybe trimming plants which adds a bit of ammonia to the tank I lower my dosing, co2, and light until the algae goes away. The algae will produce more spores and die off eventually but if there is no longer any ammonia then they won't transform into the algae that you see. So healthy and growing plants equals no algae![emoji3]


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