# Discus-keeping: For those interested, i'm here to help



## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi folks,
I'm retired, on this forum each and every day, and would be happy to answer any questions you might have about discus; where to get them if you want to get started; and how to keep them successfully.


I must admit to taking a page out of Phil Edwards' book by offering my assistance to anyone who keeps discus, or who is interested in getting started with them.
As some of you may know, Phil is offering his wealth of knowledge by answering any questions on plants, planted tanks, and many other issues, and is doing a superb job at it - great work, Phil !


In my case, I've kept discus on & off for over 40 years and feel I've gained a lot of experience learning to do it the correct way, so as not to lose these expensive fish due to lack of knowledge, and beginner mistakes.


You may know too that I've also written an extensive, illustrated Guide to Getting Started with Discus, which is available right here in the "FISH" section, within the first & only Sticky titled 'FAQ and Fish Articles'. 


So please feel free to post here at any time, or PM me, and I'll answer any of your questions as promptly as I can.


Best regards,
Paul


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,just want to thank you for helping me to set my 90 gallon Discus tank last year.Thanks to you I didn't make a lot of mistakes that I would have made,Can't say all has been great but now have a handle on things.Of my original 6 I have lost three ,one to an accidental head slam into the side of tank and two to some type of disease.I am having an issue with one of the others being badly bullied by one of the others even though the one being bullied is the biggest guy in the tank.He was being forced into a corner and attacked to the point that he was losing some tail and fin mass so I isolated him in a 10 gallon tank and have rehabbed him back to health.He is looking great again,I have researched and some indications are that when kept in to small of groups pecking can occur so have ordered three more 4/12-5 inchers from Chicago Discus and will return the big guy back along with the new comers and hope that helps...Any thoughts on this?? if you have recently retired congratulations I love being retired and having time to do what i love..Thanks again Ed


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Hi Ed,
Thanks for the kind words.
With discus, it can at times be difficult to keep them thriving & healthy for lengthy periods, particularly if one neglects a good water change regime and not paying close attention to maintaining high water quality & conditions.
We all run into losing a discus or two every once in a while - I've certainly lost my share too - it's hard to bat 1,000 when keeping discus - LOL.
And it's good that you're building the number of discus back up again. It's quite difficult to avoid pecking order issues when keeping just 2, 3, or 4 discus. 5 or 6 is the minimum number recommended, but the more, the merrier, as they say.

Chicago discus has excellent quality stock, so you shouldn't have any trouble if you do a suitable quarantine to protect the new Chicago discus from your existing group, which might have developed some health issues due to the bullying/in-fighting.
If you need any help with setting up a suitable quarantine arrangement, please PM me and I'll fill you in.
Regards,
Paul


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

No questions at this time. I've been keeping discus for a little over a year, definitely subscribing to this thread.

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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

As a starting bit of advice for those of you who haven't already read it, here is a summary of my '6 Cardinal Rules' to be followed by newcomers to discus, in order to be successful at keeping discus:


D-I-S-C-U-S - 6 CARDINAL RULES FOR NEWBIES TO FOLLOW
---------------------------------------------------------------------

First I'd just like to mention once again that discus are hardier than many people think, and are not difficult to keep, so long as one is prepared to accept and adhere to a few key practices that will provide the best chances of success with discus.

This listing is recorded more or less in order of importance:

1) - D - Do your homework well before delving into discus. Read and research all you can beforehand. Googling will certainly help, as well as spending a good deal of time reading the posts and threads on the simplydiscus.com forum, particularly the stickies in the 'Discus Basics for Beginners' section, which will provide you with much of the material you need to digest.

2) - I - Investigate and learn of the best sources to get your discus stock. Find those breeders &/or importers that are long time, well-experienced, responsible, reputable, and known to supply high quality, healthy, and well-shaped discus. Buy your discus from one of these sources in order to insure that you get off on the best footing possible.
This is the single, most important factor in succeeding with discus.
The simplydiscus.com forum has a sponsors section which lists a good number of high quality discus suppliers in North America. Check it out.

3) - S - Set up and plan to follow a strict regular routine of fresh water changes, tank wipe-downs and cleansing, vacuuming of wastes, and regular filter and media cleaning, changes, replacements, and maintenance. Be fully prepared for the kind of commitment it takes to produce and maintain the highest water quality and conditions that you can.

4) - C - Carefully consider the type of tank set up you start with. Make sure the tank size is ample enough to start with 5 or 6 discus. Don't be tempted to begin with a tank of less than 55 or 60 gallons, and don't try to justify going smaller by just getting 1, 2, 3, or 4 discus for cost or other reasons.
Wait till you have sufficient resources to get a proper-sized tank, and the suitable size and number of fish to insure continuing good health and harmonious discus sociability.
Do not start with small, undersized, very juvenile fish which have not yet developed a more mature immune system, are more demanding to raise properly, and much more prone to health problems and other issues. Get fish of at least 3.0" in size, preferably larger.

5) - U - Undertake to start off with a bare bottom tank, unless you're getting fully adult fish and have previous good experience with fish-keeping generally, and maintaining a planted tank in particular. If you must have some decor, limit yourself to a very thin sand substrate layer, and perhaps a piece of driftwood with just a couple of small plants attached, or one or two potted plants.
Once you gain several months' of experience getting to know your discus' traits & behavior, and your discus get larger, then you may proceed to an aqua-scaped environment, to possibly include some other species of compatible discus tank-mates. Feed a varied diet, several times a day, and learn which foods will achieve a nutritious diet, by researching.

6) - S - Simplify. Keep things as simple as you can to start. Don't complicate your start with discus, at least at first, by placing them in a heavily planted environment, using CO2 and a strict fertilization regime. Make sure your tank is fully cycled before adding the fish, and don't be tempted to alter or change the pH of your water, or modify your water conditions and parameters by using chemicals of any kind. No need to use RO water or adopt any other procedures that would tend to complicate what should be a simple start to your discus launch. If you plan on eventually having a community tank set-up, carefully research the species of other fish you'd like to keep with the discus, to insure they are able to withstand the higher discus temp of at least 82 F, and that they are fully compatible with discus.
And do a complete and proper quarantine before adding any such tank-mates to your discus tank.

Follow these 'rules', and there's little doubt you will succeed with discus !


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

discuspaul said:


> as a starting bit of advice for those of you who haven't already read it, here is a summary of my '6 cardinal rules' to be followed by newcomers to discus, in order to be successful at keeping discus:
> 
> 
> D-i-s-c-u-s - 6 cardinal rules for newbies to follow
> ...


amen Ed

Hi Paul,I am getting the fish this Wednesday 2 Super Red Melons and 1 Red Panda all 4.5-5 inches. The best I can put together is a 20 gallon quarantine tank.It will of course be bare bottom with daily small water changes.I am running a small hob from the main tank that i will use for the 20.The main tank has been healthy for over 5 months with no issues so how long should I quarantine and what else should I do thanks


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Your 20 gallon tank will be sufficient to house the 3 new discus for a temporary period of time (perhaps up to 2- 3 weeks or so), but just to be on the safe side be sure to do large enough water changes each day (using Prime as the conditioner) to eliminate any risk of ammonia or nitrite presence.
Would be a good idea to test for any of this every second day, say.

So long as you keep up with the fresh water changes (try 25% or more) and using Prime, you should have no problem even if you place brand new media in that filter (that has not yet been colonized with any beneficial bacteria). This should be very safe.

If using the filter that has been in your main tank for awhile with it's existing media, this may present a very slight risk, although I feel you should still be ok. I say this only because IF - IF, any of your existing 3 discus have any harmful bacterial or other pathogenic issues within their system, particularly the one being bullied, it may possibly be transmitted through the filter media, although this is not likely in my view.

With the new discus staying in the 20 gal QT for a while this will give them a chance to resume being comfortable after coming from Chicago discus to your home, and you'll be able to be sure they're eating ok and are just fine.

On the 2nd day after getting the new ones, take one of the three new discus and place it in your main tank with the other 3, and leave it with them for at least 2 weeks, preferably 3, to ensure it hasn't picked up anything problematic from your existing 3. If all goes well after that much time, just add the other 2 to your main tank from the QT tank. That way, if your 3 existing fish are not ok, and do pass on something harmful to the new discus, you may end up losing just one fish, not all 3 - got it ? 

Otherwise though, you may not feel the necessity to do a QT at all, and just add the 3 new ones to your main tank immediately upon getting them, but that's taking a degree of risk that you might feel comfortable with.

P.S. 
If I seem overly cautious to you Ed, it's mainly because I don't know what caused the death of 2 of your first batch of discus, and since it is possible they developed ill health from some harmful pathogen that your remaining 3 have also picked up & carry, but have been able to deal with so far.
However, if you feel your tank & remaining fish are quite healthy, then I wouldn't blame you for taking a modest risk & not bothering with a QT. I might do the same.


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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

I will absolutely be taking you up on this! I actually just "inherited" a tank and 2 Discus from my Fiancé's father. He didn't have the time to care for them as much as he should have, and after a couple of requests from me, finally gave in and let me take them.


It came with this tank (not actually sure how many gallons it is) and only the 2 Discus you see. Both were in somewhat rough shape and I could tell they were stressed. A thorough tank cleaning, some driftwood to help lower the PH, and raising the water temp to where it should actually be (he had it at room temp) has helped immensely and they're starting to liven up and show their true colors.. literally as well.


My goal is to have a somewhat planted tank with the dwarf hairgrass on the right, some hornwort in the back, and a couple of other plants sprinkled in. I have no idea what the other two are, they were a gift from him last time he came to visit and saw how well they were doing. 


I'm trying hard not to overpopulate the tank, I have the 2 discus, both are about the size of my fist, 3 cardinal tetra's, 3 glass cats, a cory to help with cleanup, and a bristlenose pleco.


I've been doing weekly water 20% water changes with some vacuuming as I've read Discus are very sensitive and picky about their water.


Any other help you can provide would be awesome. The plan is to actually get a couple more like everyone is saying, but I don't feel like my tank is large enough to support any additional Discus. I'm pretty new to this whole thing and trying to do as much research/learning I can before I make decisions.


I attached a picture of my tank as it sits.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Welcome to TPT, Vriez

It's great to hear that you've done some discus homework, and kicked up a notch the tank cleansing, water changes, and more attention to maintaining good water quality, in order to improve the health & condition of those 2 discus - that's key to keeping them healthy & thriving.

If I may suggest, it would further improve things to up your water changes to 50% or more, 2 to 3 X a week if you can, and over time, arrange to change up the gravel substrate and replace it with pool filter sand.

Gravel is a notorious catch-all for all manner of debris - uneaten food, decaying plant matter, etc., (even with vacuuming), which can readily harbor the steady growth of undesirable/harmful bacteria, whereas PFS is very easy to keep clean with frequent vacuuming, while nothing gets trapped within the sand. This would undoubtedly further improve your water quality & conditions.

As for having just 2 discus, since it appears those two have been together for quite some lengthy period, and have likely long ago settled any uncertainty in respect of pecking order/domination, then you may not need to add any more discus to maintain peace and harmony. You may only need to consider additions if, as & when they start fighting, with one bullying the other.

That's my pertinent observations for now, but I'll be happy to answer any other questions you may have as time goes on. 
All the best to you & regards,
Paul


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## doinkmobb (May 12, 2010)

Here's something I've never understood about discus - why is there a need for so many water changes? I don't accept answers of "they are sensitive fish" or "they are picky about water conditions". They share their native waters with many, many fish that are available to the hobby, yet none of them carry the disclaimer of *WATER CHANGES OR DEATH. *Yes, there are other cichlids that are susceptible to hole in the head disease due to deteriorating water conditions, but again, nobody is advising around the clock water changes for these fish. I am newly interested in discus and in my limited readings, I don't remember anybody recommending testing the water for ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, TDS, pH, GH/KH and then doing an appropriate water change - the advice is always large and frequent water changes just because. 

Is there something about discus which makes them unbelievably sensitive to poor water conditions once they are in our aquariums? 
If they are such sensitive fish, why do so many discus owners keep their fish in extremely clear water, under super bright lights, while administering fertilizers and CO2? This is a drastic change from their natural habitat of low light and acidic, stained water with low or no discernible mineral content. 
I see beef heart recommended a lot, why? Mammalian meat is most definitely not part of their diet. And why are people feeding their fish 4x a day, even as adults? 

I thoroughly enjoy researching fish before I buy them, it's just something I find interesting. I find factual data with numbers (temperature, pH, TDS) and owner experiences and tips for keeping their fish alive. However, with discus, there seems to be a lot of advice given without reasoning, and no one questions it. And if you don't follow the official discus keeping rules, you are a horrible person. It's strange.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

It seems to me, doinkmobb, that you're being unfairly, inaccurately, and overly dramatic with your comments, to the point of seeming to be simply argumentative and not really serious about wanting any kind of serious response.
Examples:
- "water changes or death" - no one that I know has an attitude like that, or says things like that-
- "around the clock water changes" - that's ridiculous
- " 4 X a day feeds to adults" - no one does that - where did you get that nonsense ?
- "water changes just because...." ?
- "mammalian meat " - do you mean protein ? Most living species need some form & amt. of protein
- ".....you're a horrible person...." ??

In their natural habitat in tributaries of the Amazon river, albeit low light, acidic water with low TDS, discus nevertheless have the benefit of constantly flowing fresh water, and by genetic nature seem to do best in that type of environment in aquaria - hence large, frequent W/C's. 
It's been well shown (proven) over many years by thousands of experienced commercial discus breeders & suppliers, as well as individual hobbyists, that discus grow well and do best when significant attention is paid to fresh water replenishment, and resulting good water quality & conditions, and do poorly when that is not the case and water quality is neglected.
Does that indicate that discus are not tolerant of poor water quality ? - It certainly does, in my view.

I'll close by simply saying that if you're interested in discus-keeping you need to be prepared to accept the not difficult challenge of providing them with the essential environment, or you won't succeed and the fish will not likely last long.
If doing this is too much for you based on everything you say you've heard, then obviously, discus-keeping is not for you.
You probably won't forgive my bluntness, but your nonsensical commentary called for it in my estimation.


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## Waltoflorius (Mar 24, 2018)

At the risk of possibly adding what could be taken as more nonsense, I would like to start by saying thanks for taking the time to help people get started with discus...that's no small undertaking.

I'm new to planted aquaria, but I have bred discus for some 15 years, and have found that it's heavily semantic.

This is just my personal observation from experience, and nothing more....just for the record. Lol.

If you purchase your discus from Chicago Discus, then setting a maintenance routine similar to theirs is important for success. When I purchased my first 6 discus, I bought them from Jack Wattley, and spoke with him about my initial startup. He recommended a 75g tank, bare bottom, with a pair of large air fed sponge filters (mature with bacteria). He recommended a 50% change daily, using only RO water, and feeding a beefheart mixture, as well as live foods. I did this, and I was successful. 

This being said, later in the hobby, I purchased discus from "not so reputable" sources and inquired on their regimen. They were often breeding and growing out their stock in high ph, high kh, hi nitrate water. They were doing weekly 25% changes, and using gravel as a substrate with HOB filter (not even the good kind). I almost felt dirty when I heard this. Yikes! My fish arrived, and they were gorgeous and thriving (like playful puppies)...I was blown away...how could this be so. Despite this, I was not about to go about their shoddy practices, so I stuck with what I knew. I quarantined and did an extremely slow acclimation through drip line until water was within my main tanks parameters...this took weeks. They went into the tank and did great, but I could not get any sort of pairing/breeding activity, which I felt I had down to an art. As an experiment, I slowly acclimated them back to the parameters of the water they were raised in. These fish came to life, developed extraordinary colors, and went on to make me a ton of money with the fry that I grew out. 

This completely changed the way I looked at things. Back in the day, when Jack Wattley got started, he was a pioneer. He was introducing a fish to the world, and trying to replicate the exact conditions of his wild breeding stock. By doing this, these fish were evolving when it came to strains (due to his selective breeding process), but not when it came to their desired water parameters. The faithful following of hobbyists that followed the same regimen, further reinforced the difficulty of keeping them, due to never adapting into more relaxed parameters, gradually through generations. Unless you dedicate your life to it, you are simply not going to replicate wild water, in a glass box...that's like trying to make a tree sway, by blowing air at it through a straw. The reason you see people advertising neutral ph discus, or hard water discus, is because of any wild creatures ability to adapt over time. At some point in the history of discus, several lazy fishkeepers must have accidentally changed the hobby...case in point, RO water is rarely needed anymore according to several breeders. 

This is just my two cents worth, but it is based on my own real world experience, so hopefully you will forgive me. Once again, thanks for taking the time to run this thread...Discus are amazing.

Bump: A quick edit...25 years, not 15 in the discus world. Sorry


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Many thanks for your interesting comments. 
From what you've experienced, it seems there are different strokes (i.e. approaches) for different folks, and at times, some seemingly turning out to be fairly successful even when ideal water quality & conditions have not been maintained - although I strongly suspect this is the exception rather than the rule. 
I too have been surprised, but only very occasionally, at how well some discus have done when they have become inured to less than normally accepted discus husbandry practices, and not ideal water quality.
All of my experience with successful discus-keeping though, along with good fish growth, I attribute mainly to bare-bottom tank practices, no neglect of frequent tank cleansing routines, and regular large water changes.

Nice to hear of an unusually different experience such as yours.


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## Waltoflorius (Mar 24, 2018)

I agree with you completely, I'm a bare bottom sort of guy myself. I guess I was just trying to say, take care of your discus the way they were raised and you'll have success, because, getting what you're used to = lack of stress = a happy life. I'm currently diving head first into a planted setup, which makes discus seem easy...at least at the moment (said while fighting a giant algae bloom). Lol


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Well, if you feel I can help you at all with anything, just post it or PM me.

Over the past several years, I've experimented many times with growing out juvenile discus in planted environments, so I've gained a reasonable amount of experience in how to do that successfully.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Hi Paul - question for you. I've got a recent issue with one of my 5" adult discus. 

I dose liquid ferts in my planted tank once per week (the day after one of my biweekly WC's). I dose Thrive (9 pumps for my 90g set up). I dose the first in to the return pump chamber of my sump so they are evenly dispersed into the water column.

With no changes to this routine, one of my discus seems to have become sensitive to the ferts. Shortly after the ferts enter the tank, and for up to 24hrs after one fish with flick his fins and dart sporadically around the tank. The behavior isn't exhibited any other day of the week, or in any of the 5 other fish.

Thoughts? How can I prevent this? I'm worried that it is overly stressing this fish, or that he will one day injure himself, or leap out of the tank.

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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

That's a tough question, my friend - I've never heard of anything like that before.
What kind of liquid ferts are you dosing, specifically.

Without knowing which fert, or ingredient within it, might be causing the sensitivity - if indeed it is the ferts- for the moment the only thing I can suggest is that you lower/or lessen, the dosage of those ferts by 50% and see what the reaction is.

Is the sporadic darting occurring on a continuous basis over 24 hours after dosage ?
This is mysterious - do you feel your liquid dosing is essential to getting the plant growth results you're looking for or expect ?

This is mysterious - do you feel your liquid dosing is essential to getting the plant growth results you're looking for or expect ?


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Paul- I'm using Nilocg Thrive. 

From their website - 2mL pump per 10g will add 7ppm NO3, 1.3ppm PO4, 5ppm K, and 0.25ppm Fe
Analysis:[censored] N 3%, P 0.8%, K 9.4%, Fe 0.47%, Mg 0.062%, Cu 0.009%, B 0.023%, Mn 0.06%, Mo 0.0018%, Zn 0.016%


I've been using this fert for the past 6 months and only recently noticed the issue in the past two or three weeks. 

I have a lot of water column feeders with masses of java fern and various anubias. Backing off dosing would likely result in some serious issues in plant health.

This is my first go around with discus, I've been growing these fish for nearly a year (with the exception of the white diamond in the lower left, that fish is only about a month old), and were roughly the size of a 50cent piece when I purchased them. The effected fish is the orange/black mut in the upper right. He is some sort of pidgeon blood mash up, which I likely wouldn't have purchased had I known more about discus at the time.

Thanks for your input.









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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

As for the darting, it is only occasional during that 24 hour period. He eats normally, and shoals with the rest of the fish, and otherwise behaves normally. Then out of no where will start twitching his pectoral fins or go dashing around the tank at full speed. After each episode the fish will return to normal for up to several hours before repeating.

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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Dashing around the tank at full speed on occasion is something I experienced myself quite a few years ago - cause unknown - and I eventually lost that fish when it jumped out of the tank. Quite honestly, I really don't think it has anything to do with the ferts, or any element within them.

I don't know what your w/c & cleansing regime is, but it may be a water quality issue, temporary or otherwise.
The good news is that fish is eating & behaving normally with the others most of the time. Keep observing - it may only be serious if his coloration darkens significantly.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

discuspaul said:


> Dashing around the tank at full speed on occasion is something I experienced myself quite a few years ago - cause unknown - and I eventually lost that fish when it jumped out of the tank. Quite honestly, I really don't think it has anything to do with the ferts, or any element within them.
> 
> I don't know what your w/c & cleansing regime is, but it may be a water quality issue, temporary or otherwise.
> The good news is that fish is eating & behaving normally with the others most of the time. Keep observing - it may only be serious if his coloration darkens significantly.


Thanks for the input, much appreciated!

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## Waltoflorius (Mar 24, 2018)

Paul, I'm doing the research for setting up a 75 gallon planted discus tank. I figured I would run my setup and stocking thoughts by you, and see if you recommend anything different.

75g aqeon tank
Ada microferts (sub soil)
Ada powersand s
Ada amazonas cap
Small front area with pool filter sand
Ada rock (nature style)
Twin aquaclear 70's hob
Not sure on heater and lighting 

Plants:
Not sure yet...suggestions?

Fish:
3 4.5" discus from Chicago Discus (not decided on strain)
6-12 otocinclus 
6-12 Pygmy corydoras
A school of small tetras (rasbora, neon, tummy nose) not sure, but just one species.
2 albino bristlenose plecos 
Amani shrimp (if I can make it work as far as water and tank mates go)

Any suggestions at all would be greatly appreciated...I would really like to do it right the first time. I plan on having the tank set up without fish, then after fishless cycle, start slowly introducing fish, allowing for bio to adjust. I'm not sure if there's any truth to it, but I've heard that introducing the tetras after the discus cause them to school better, due to the large fish.

Thanks


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Dare I ask??? (long story)
Any thoughts on Discus and gluteraldehyde/seachem flourish excel
or other liquid carbon sources?

Seems to be contradictory thoughts on it.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Waltoflorius said:


> Paul, I'm doing the research for setting up a 75 gallon planted discus tank. I figured I would run my setup and stocking thoughts by you, and see if you recommend anything different.
> 
> 75g aqeon tank
> Ada microferts (sub soil)
> ...



Hi there,
If you've not kept discus before, I recommend you keep things as simple as possible until you gain several months' experience with keeping discus & get to know their traits & behaviors.


In particular, may I respectfully suggest
that your intended substrate combo of
Ada microferts, powersand, and amazonas cap, while great for growing plants in most situations, may not be the best & safest approach for starting out with discus - it could be difficult to keep properly clean, and might tend to harbor the development of potentially harmful bacteria which could adversely affect water quality & conditions.
Please consider starting out with nothing more than a complete pool filter sand substrate for ease of vacuuming/cleansing of waste matter.


Otherwise your set up is good. Consider low intensity lighting & Eheim 300 w heating.


Plants: Some that do quite well @ the higher discus temps, using root tab fertilizing are:
- Any variety of Amazon Sword
- Bacopas &/or Rotalas
- Cryptocorynes
- Vals & Sag's
- Hygrophilas
- Ludwigia
- Nympheas (Lotuses)
- Anubias


Chicago discus is an excellent source for high quality, well-shaped fish.


Discus tank-mates:
Your suggested species will be compatible with discus, and can readily tolerate the higher discus temps, with the exceptions of: 
Otocinclus - which have on occasion as they get lager & older, been known to take a liking to discus' slime coating as part of their diet - it happened to me, more than once - avoid them.


I tried Amanos with discus but they didn't do well and didn't last long.


Neons do not do well @ discus temp - think Cardinals instead.


Always introduce discus first to an intended community tank set-up & allow them several weeks to become comfortable with their new surroundings. Add any tank-mates afterwards, following a proper quarantine of course.


Call on me if there's anything more I can help you with.
Best,
Paul

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> Dare I ask??? (long story)
> Any thoughts on Discus and gluteraldehyde/seachem flourish excel
> or other liquid carbon sources?
> 
> Seems to be contradictory thoughts on it.



Yes there are some contradictory thoughts on it, but I've used Excel/Flourish and other Seachem liquid fert sources with moderation, and with no ill effects.
Give it a go. Shouldn't be a problem.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

doinkmobb said:


> Here's something I've never understood about discus - why is there a need for so many water changes? I don't accept answers of "they are sensitive fish" or "they are picky about water conditions".
> 
> with discus, there seems to be a lot of advice given without reasoning, and no one questions it. And if you don't follow the official discus keeping rules, you are a horrible person. It's strange.


It is one of those things that gets thrown around a LOT in the discus world and everyone simply takes it as fact. I'm not sure if there really is an answer. But I have kept some discus over the past few years; and this advice of frequent water changes is a good beginning guideline. But, I believe what often gets confusing is raising juvenile discus vs. keeping adult discus. Frequent water changes certainly will benefit either situation; but the over the top frequency is really only required for raising juveniles. Adult discus should thrive in a well cared for tank that gets routine water changes to fit that tanks needs. 

I completely agree that there are lots of "rules", and advice given about discus with no good data to back it up. However, those people giving those "rules" have proven to be successful when following them so something about it can really work. I think what compounds this is the price of the fish. The price tag on a discus is 10x that of some other aquarium fish. So I think people are more likely to try and follow someone else's rules if they were proven to be successful. The downside of that is what you're seeing in that when you dont follow those "rules" you're almost outcast from certain online communities (some I know Paul frequents) with lots of experts....most of whom have great information to share! But they make it hard to want to be a part of the conversation.




discuspaul said:


> It seems to me, doinkmobb, that you're being unfairly, inaccurately, and overly dramatic with your comments, to the point of seeming to be simply argumentative and not really serious about wanting any kind of serious response.
> 
> It's been well shown (proven) over many years by thousands of experienced commercial discus breeders & suppliers, as well as individual hobbyists, that discus grow well and do best when significant attention is paid to fresh water replenishment, and resulting good water quality & conditions, and do poorly when that is not the case and water quality is neglected.
> Does that indicate that discus are not tolerant of poor water quality ? - It certainly does, in my view.


I think thats a pretty unfair response to be honest with you Paul. Its about what I'd expect to see on some other site. Keep in mind you went out of your way to offer advice about keeping these fish. The original question asked is clearly only done so after someone tried to research the best they could about keeping discus.I'd go as far as saying you were being more argumentative than the person who asked the question. All you did was remind him again what he's already seen via his own research. 

Time and time again there are plenty of people who say and show that good discus come from good water. But the legitimate question asked is WHY? Why is this soooooo much more important with discus than just about every other species out there? Of all those who show the results not many can really explain why they got those results other than explaining what it is they did to reach the goal. I can agree that the proof is in the pudding; it clearly works! But no one is saying it doesnt work and no one is implying that discus are tolerant of poor quality water. I'm just as curious myself to know the actual reason behind this. 

As pointed out by @Waltoflorius, and as you confirmed, there are success stories out there even if they dont abide by the discus "laws". Whether or not you agree with it, or whether or not you've seen many success stories (perhaps there are more who never came to boast on the internet); there are success stories from those with poor husbandry skills, and less than ideal tanks, etc. So again the curiosity gets the best of me and I have to wonder why. Especially when the majority of the information out there would imply that is not only unlikely, but impossible. 

But keep an open mind to those who want to question this stuff. There is an air of pompousness (is that a word?) almost when it comes to some discus experts. I've been highly turned off by that attitude displayed by other discus keepers in the past and I'm sure it ends up stopping some people dead in their tracks. The price tag is enough of a deterrent, we don't need the ones involved in the hobby to turn away new discus keepers who could end up teaching us all a thing or two someday!


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

All are open to question the methods of the discus breeders and experts (such as @discuspaul) who have been raising and breeding discus for decades and have had the experience to see firsthand what these methods produce. 

By all means, question each assertion: from water change frequency, to feeding, to substrate and decor. Of course, like I said, you are welcome to it. 

Do the experiment-- all of us who have kept discus for decades ( consistent with the same guidelines that Paul outlines) would love for you to share your results. 

Certainly, do less water changes, feed differently, raise juveniles in a planted tank-- whatever skepticism you hold for the methods of the breeders/long-term discus fish-keepers--- modify them. 

However, before you do, make sure you know what a discus looks like who has been raised to its full potential and compare it to the discus you find in your tank after a year. 

I would be really interested in seeing what you end up with. 

To tell you the truth, I am skeptical because in my nearly two decades of raising discus I have seen what lack of regard to methods looks like.

But, hey--- maybe Ive been doing all those water changes for naught and you have something to teach me. Or maybe not.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Discusluv said:


> All are open to question the methods of the discus breeders and experts (such as @discuspaul) who have been raising and breeding discus for decades and have had the experience to see firsthand what these methods produce.
> 
> By all means, question each assertion: from water change frequency, to feeding, to substrate and decor. Of course, like I said, you are welcome to it.
> 
> ...



These discus discussions have a way of running around in circles; no matter where they are heard. I'm not sure if this is a direct response to my post earlier; but I'm not skeptical at all. I know the "discus laws" produce results. I've raised (both successfully and maybe not so successfully) a few groups of juvenile discus. I know that skimping on maintenance can quickly turn what could have been an amazing group of fish into so so fish or worse. The question however is why? Why is it that this is so much more important with discus than other species? 

Why does the discussion always turn to sarcasm where someone dares another to prove them wrong by trying a different way? Have you been doing water changes for naught and do you still have something to learn? Well if you cant explain why exactly all those water changes produce the results you see then there is still some knowledge left to be had there! But, hey - - maybe I'm wrong and you just decided to keep that knowledge to yourself rather than help pass it along in the community. Or maybe not.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

C'mon people, sharing and learning can be more fun then bickering.

Did I read somewhere that Discus secrete hormones that inhibit growth of conspecifics?

If true, then WC sounds like a sound hormone therapy.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

@ lksdrinker:

You can think what you like - you're certainly entitled to your opinion.
Seems a bit strange though, that at least 4 others were obviously in concert my comments, with you being the only dissenter.

Please know that, like most people, I expect the nature and terminology of questions to be done in a mature, responsible and polite way, and I don't react well to the tenure of any poster's apparent (to me anyway) immoderate, inflammatorily worded approach. I wonder how you might realistically react to an inquirer who used similar type of imagery?

In any event, I believe the well published multitude of successful discus-keeping results based on maintaining the best water quality & conditions, mainly through large, frequent water changes & tank cleansing, speaks for itself, and provides all the data one needs to be convinced of this being the obvious way to go in order to succeed at keeping discus thriving & healthy. 

As to the deeper "WHY", the only answer I've ever felt comfortable with as dealing with the issue, and that many other experienced discus-keepers also accept to one degree or another, is that the free-flowing, constant fresh & clean water replenishment occurring in the Amazon tributaries of discus habitat for centuries, has genetically pre-disposed them to doing well under similar type of conditions in aquaria, as I mentioned to the poster.

I've not heard any other explanation that is believable to me - it's a bit like the question: "Why have UFO's of believed extra-terrestrial origin spent thousands of years visiting & observing earth ? " No one has any answer to that. LOL


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> Seems a bit strange though, that at least 4 others were obviously in concert my comments, with you being the only dissenter.
> 
> As to the deeper "WHY", the only answer I've ever felt comfortable with as dealing with the issue, and that many other experienced discus-keepers also accept to one degree or another, is that the free-flowing, constant fresh & clean water replenishment occurring in the Amazon tributaries of discus habitat for centuries, has genetically pre-disposed them to doing well under similar type of conditions in aquaria, as I mentioned to the poster.
> 
> I've not heard any other explanation that is believable to me - it's a bit like the question: "Why have UFO's of believed extra-terrestrial origin spent thousands of years visiting & observing earth ? " No one has any answer to that. LOL


I'm not a dissenter! I couldnt make myself any more clear that I know this way works. I've dont it myself and have seen it firsthand! However that still doesn't even begin to explain why it might work. You and ever other successful discus keeper can repeat yourself over and over and go through your procedures as many times as you like and say that large water changes speaks for itself. (Its exactly why I followed the paths of successful discus keepers before me) But there still has to be an actual reason that has never been explained! 

I'll pass right over your rules about how to ask questions on an internet forum and get to the discus; but dont offer up your service to help on a public forum if you are going to decide who really deserves it. 

Its not a deeper answer I'm looking for; but a scientific one. Saying they're pre-disposed to one thing or another is sort of a cop out. They're pre-disposed to living in a river yet we keep them in glass boxes somehow. 

If the free flowing, constant fresh and clean water replenishment that occurs in the tributaries of discus habitats have truly pre-disposed them to doing well under similar conditions, then how is it that anyone can keep discus in water that is not identical to that? 

Wouldn't that imply that you should keep discus in a recreated mix of white and black amazon water? Full of sediment from the white water, full of tanins from the black water with a ph that fluctuates from barely anything up to 6. something or other. 

Why is it that other species from similar waters, areas, tributaries, etc, do not have the same pre-disposition? I think this is the part that amazes me the most. Plenty of other species come from similar if not identical water parameters. Yet they dont require the same regimen that discus do. So is it the water or is it the fish?

Comparing it to a question about UFOs is a bit silly. There has to be a scientific explanation with the discus. If you choose to simply accept it as fact thats fine. Others might be looking for a real explanation and they shouldn't be ostracized for trying to do so. Sometimes an acceptable answer is simply "I do not know". Things like this dont happen for no good reason; even if the explanation is unknown to most of us! 

As @OVT pointed out about the hormone secretion theory. Used to be we'd say every group of discus has a few runts and that just sort of happens that way. nothing you can really do about it. But now there are ideas as to why that happens and some facts to back it up. So, yes large, frequent water changes can be a way to combat that aspect of it for sure. 

There was a time when everyone used carbon in their tanks. Never questioned it, but everyone did, so that continued. Then HITH and similar symptoms showed up (more so with discus than other species) and people found that the fine carbon dust was "clogging" the sensory pits on discus causing them to become inflamed, infected etc. Now when someone says "dont use carbon it'll kill your fish" there is some factual evidence to cite as to why you perhaps shouldn't use carbon instead of just stepping on someone's head and implying they're a moron for not doing it the way all the others have done it successfully. Hopefully some day we can have a similar answer to give when someone legitimately wants to understand what is truly so different about discus that forces this very specific regimen.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

'Dissenter' meaning critical of me, and you were clearly that.

I'm not about to grace your argumentative dissertation with any further discussion from me, and will be
moving on to continue helping others, as best I can, to avoid the pitfalls and succeed at discus-keeping.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

discuspaul said:


> It seems to me, doinkmobb, that you're being unfairly, inaccurately, and overly dramatic with your comments, to the point of seeming to be simply argumentative and not really serious about wanting any kind of serious response.
> Examples:
> - "water changes or death" - no one that I know has an attitude like that, or says things like that-
> - "around the clock water changes" - that's ridiculous
> ...



Is it acceptable to set up an automatic drip water change system? (Say 10% a day) Or does it really need large water changes?

What about fertilizers? Is it dangerous to dose EI? That can add alot of Nitrates.

What about pH? I use CO2 24/7 to maintain acidic water conditions. If the pH went from 6.5 -> 7.5 over a period of 4-6 hours, would that kill the discus? Really Im just curious how Discus keepers manage Co2 in their tanks, which usually comes with daily pH changes.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

ChrisX said:


> Is it acceptable to set up an automatic drip water change system? (Say 10% a day) Or does it really need large water changes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, I don't expect that would kill the discus. A change of 1.0 in pH over 4-6 hours would likely be quite tolerable to healthy discus, but it is possible that continual daily occurences of that much differential could prove to be difficult on the fish, perhaps somewhat harmful, and be a cause for stress. Stress of course, may lead to a decline in health for the fish. 
Hope this helps.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

discuspaul said:


> 'Dissenter' meaning critical of me, and you were clearly that.
> 
> I'm not about to grace your argumentative dissertation with any further discussion from me, and will be
> moving on to continue helping others, as best I can, to avoid the pitfalls and succeed at discus-keeping.



Fair enough Paul. Thought I brought up some points worth discussing but I guess the pre-disposition of this fish is enough of an answer for you. Not looking for an argument and wasnt trying to be critical of you personally in any specific way. Sorry if it seemed so. Just looking for more info on a topic about discus in the thread you started offering up your help.

As someone else who has kept discus I thought it was worthwhile to try and bolster up what seems to be a newcomer to this specific side of the hobby. I've seen plenty of these new guys come with similar questions and get turned away from the world of discus specifically because of the responses from others involved. I think what would've helped me most when I first delved into the discus world (and currently for that matter) would be some actual data rather than everyone simply regurgitating a formula that somehow works even though no one can explain why. Sometimes even seasoned hobbyists just don't have the info being sought despite the fact they can produce good results.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Do we know of any studies that measured o2 levels in habitats?

Frequent water changes would keep the o2 level up, especially in planted tanks. If we could then establish that Discus "need" higher levels of o2 due to one of their attributes, say, body shape, then the frequent WC -> healthier Discus would have another plausible correlation.

Part of my personal interest in Discus best practices is whether they would significantly benefit "similar" species, like Severum and Angels.


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## brianp603 (Nov 18, 2017)

I got a question... Is peppering on pigeon bloods a dominant trait? I’ve read all true pigeon bloods would have varying degrees of it. Ive spent quite a bit of time trying to find an answer on google before but of course with pigeon bloods being dominant over other breeds(crossbreeding)that’s about the only thing google comes up with. I’ve had two pigeon blood discus (and a couple others).One I got in sept and the other in nov. never kept discus until this past fall but the way those two acted together ever since about the second day i had the female in with the male,I figured they had paired up. Well sure enough the beginning of this month they laid eggs. They pretty much abondoned the eggs an hour or so after laying them though and of course the other fish had a nutritious snack.A week later they laid eggs again and had around 100 hatch. The fry made it 3 days before the parents dropped their guard to eat and another discus ate all the fry.I wasn’t really considering breeding them before and both have peppering. The male is a checkerboard and mainly only has pepper on his face and some random specks on his sides(I actually like the look of it on him ). The female is more like a snakeskin pigeon and the patterns on her are nice but she has a lot of peppering on the upper half of her body. I still like her though as shes very friendly and think she’s a pretty fish but she’d look so much better with a lot less pepper(a lot of ppl probably wouldn’t want a pigeon as peppered she is). Figured if they could keep some of the babies alive to the point of being able to separate them I’d grow them out to see what they create. Imagine the babies would have nice patterns with the mix of the two. as much as the female is peppered and the male having some too im sure the offspring would have some as well. However really hoping their offspring wouldn’t have nearly as much as the female anyway


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Re: OVT's post:

I've no knowledge of any such studies having been done, but it's an interesting concept and perhaps something that should be looked into.
It makes sense that discus may have some form of need for O2 given what I understand are reasonably good levels of it in the free-flowing waters of Amazon tributaries that are discus habitats (and those of angels too, I have read).

In all my 40 some odd years of on & off discus-keeping, and interaction with many experienced discus hobbyists and breeders, I've not heard (nor read about) anyone seriously discussing/reviewing at any length the "WHY", scientific or otherwise, behind the need for water changes, along with the husbandry need for maintaining high water quality & conditions. 
Perhaps no one has really gotten to the bottom of that WHY.


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## brianp603 (Nov 18, 2017)

Or I guess I should rephrase that question... would the offspring of two peppered pigeon bloods have as much peppering as the parents, maybe more or less?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

brianp603 said:


> I got a question... Is peppering on pigeon bloods a dominant trait? I’ve read all true pigeon bloods would have varying degrees of it. Ive spent quite a bit of time trying to find an answer on google before but of course with pigeon bloods being dominant over other breeds(crossbreeding)that’s about the only thing google comes up with. I’ve had two pigeon blood discus (and a couple others).One I got in sept and the other in nov. never kept discus until this past fall but the way those two acted together ever since about the second day i had the female in with the male,I figured they had paired up. Well sure enough the beginning of this month they laid eggs. They pretty much abondoned the eggs an hour or so after laying them though and of course the other fish had a nutritious snack.A week later they laid eggs again and had around 100 hatch. The fry made it 3 days before the parents dropped their guard to eat and another discus ate all the fry.I wasn’t really considering breeding them before and both have peppering. The male is a checkerboard and mainly only has pepper on his face and some random specks on his sides(I actually like the look of it on him ). The female is more like a snakeskin pigeon and the patterns on her are nice but she has a lot of peppering on the upper half of her body. I still like her though as shes very friendly and think she’s a pretty fish but she’d look so much better with a lot less pepper(a lot of ppl probably wouldn’t want a pigeon as peppered she is). Figured if they could keep some of the babies alive to the point of being able to separate them I’d grow them out to see what they create. Imagine the babies would have nice patterns with the mix of the two. as much as the female is peppered and the male having some too im sure the offspring would have some as well. However really hoping their offspring wouldn’t have nearly as much as the female anyway





Peppering in Pigeon Bloods or Pigeon-blood based discus is indeed a trait with some degree of 'dominance', if that's the word to be used.
Peppering can range from a minimum value amount on a certain part of the body, to significant overall body peppering, and the amount or degree is affected by a number of factors, mainly for example, as the overall color of the background environment, the light intensity or lack of it, whether the fish is stressed or ill, or in good health - and other factors.


In my view there's nothing 'ugly' about peppering at all, yet there seems to be a general view that it should be reduced as much as possible - and kept to a minimum.
This can be achieved to a large extent by keeping Pigeon-Bloods in the lightest environment possible, e.g. a white background and a white substrate or painted tank bottom.


In any event, good luck with your spawners & hope the peppering in the offspring is not too bad, if that's what you want.


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## brianp603 (Nov 18, 2017)

Alright thanks Paul. Actually just noticed them laying eggs again. So see what happens


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

brianp603 said:


> Or I guess I should rephrase that question... would the offspring of two peppered pigeon bloods have as much peppering as the parents, maybe more or less?



Hard to predict with any degree of accuracy - in my view it's really dependent on the level of genetic influence/domination by either parent's genes.


I'm sure you know what I'm saying - it's like how one human boy or girl has more of the father's, or mother's, looks &/or physical traits.


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## brianp603 (Nov 18, 2017)

Understandable, that’s kind of what i was guessing. However couldn’t find much regarding the subject in regards to breeding.. Have no problem with the peppering myself, certainly makes them more unique in my opinion. Know there’s obviously a lot of people who don’t like it though


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

brianp603 said:


> Understandable, that’s kind of what i was guessing. However couldn’t find much regarding the subject in regards to breeding.. Have no problem with the peppering myself, certainly makes them more unique in my opinion. Know there’s obviously a lot of people who don’t like it though



I agree - I really like many Pigeon-Bloods & hybrids of them, and if that means I have to live with some peppering, that's OK with me.


I have always kept PG.'s in white sand though, usually with light blue backgrounds in planted tanks, and the peppering has been minimized.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,just wondering if you have heard of or used a place called Exotic Discus,there fish look pretty nice. 
https://www.exotic-discus.com/


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Doogy262 said:


> Hi Paul,just wondering if you have heard of or used a place called Exotic Discus,there fish look pretty nice.
> https://www.exotic-discus.com/


No my friend, quite frankly up till now I hadn't heard of them - but their website looks real good, they say all the right things, and if it's true what they say about all the pics in their website being their own fish, then that's good because the fish look great.


Looks & sounds like they might be able to give Chicago Discus some good competition.


Seems like it's worth giving them a try to see what their quality really is.


I would ask them though, where they import their discus from, and from whom (name of the breeders/exporters) to see by checking if that source is a good one.

Thanks for passing that info on to me - I'll remember it.


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## Sub-Mariner (Jan 25, 2016)

Hello all, 
DiscusPaul, first thank you for providing your guidance. I've grown several beautiful groups of Discus, mainly following the advice you have set forth on this forum. I got started about 5 years ago, and any time I run into something I don't know, I look to see if you've addressed it on the forum before I look anywhere else.

I would like to suggest a few concepts as they relate to the "deeper" reasons that discus require frequent water changes, as it is apparent that many out there are, at the least, curious. Before I begin, I would like to make it known that I am not simply guessing, as I have many years under my belt as a student of biology, both human and wildlife. Furthermore, I do not possess data (nor did a quick google search return any) revealing anything regarding discus cellular physiology explicitly and their ability to adapt. But, based on pages and pages of text regarding how organisms on this planet adapt, and years of delving into aquatic science, I believe the explanation to be thus:

Discus, as has been stated, come from a source of water that provides constant turnover. As such, there is a near infinite supply of needed gas exchange, nutrients, and waste removal (among other things) by nature that try as we might, we cannot imitate perfectly as aquarists. This by itself seems to make the necessitating reason for water changes apparent- because aquariums are closed systems (in most cases). We have to intervene to remove the waste. Otherwise, the organic/chemical dilution of the water becomes such that a discus cannot thrive. Again, I do not posses the cellular knowledge to tell you why the discus specifically does not thrive, but I feel confident that the process is likely akin to humans trying to breath at high altitude. Sure, there is oxygen at high altitude, but in concentrations our bodies are not accustomed to, along with higher concentrations of other gases. Sure, we can adapt to a certain degree with an increased hemoglobin/hematocrit, among other shifts, but only within a certain range. Insert any other metaphor here for trying to breath anything besides O2 or drinking things containing your own waste. Therefore, not enough O2=not enough ATP production for cellular energy=ultimate cellular demise (oversimplified but you get the point).
Now, to address the discus adapting from native water quality to the tap water that many of us keep them in. Ultimately, this ability to adapt can be blamed on natural selection. Whoever the first person was to try and keep a discus in a tank, I would assume had trouble doing so. I would also assume they had more success the more closely they tried to imitate the natural environment of the discus. Once that was a success, eventually, someone figured out how to get them to breed. When the fry hatched, I'm sure some perished, but the ones that survived obviously had a more tolerant genotype in regards to water quality, likely partially inherited from their parents. This went on for generations, along with chance mutations, with the survivors passing on their hardier genotype and so on, until we ended up with discus that could acclimate. 
No, this does not explain how people successfully keep wild caught discus with tap water, but it is fair to say that discus still in the wild must possess some degree of physiologic adaptability, otherwise they would have become extinct years ago. Darwin's theory (while controversial to many) postulates that the longer a species survives, the more it adjusts to its climate and becomes more tolerant of what nature dishes out (or it ceases to exist). So, the longer discus exist in the wild, with fluctuating climate and conditions as they are today, the more tolerant the ones that propogate will become (in most cases).
I would not hesitate to apply these concepts to other species of fish as well. Of course, one may ask, why can some fish tolerate never having their water changed while discus (most of the time) cannot, despite the genetic adaptations? Well, again, we have to go back to the past, and its pretty simple- however they came to be (whether you believe in divine creation or primordial soup), each species was born of its own unique circumstances, therefore producing varying margins of genetic and physiologic tolerance in regards to pH, temperature, GH, KH, etc. through the process of natural selection and mutation.

Of course, this is fairly general and needs further testing. I don't have a bunch of discus lying around to dissect and see what may have contributed to their demise, nor do I have the funds or resources necessary to conduct longitudinal studies regarding how they execute glycolysis or the like. But, I hope the above information at least helps with everyone's understanding, and that those who are naturally inquisitive now have a bit more information to rely on regarding the "laws" of discus keeping. 

Please feel free to add or correct if necessary.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Very well laid out and also well said, & thoroughly explained in understandable layman terms, Submariner.

I'm very happy that you chimed in with your expertise, and it seems that your concept could very well have a lot of validity !

This could be the beginning of a scientific explanation as to big 'WHY', and I for one hope that it is.

Many thanks for your post.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

This is very good @Sub-Mariner and brings up an important point. There are many other fish endemic to the waters where discus are found that are just as temperamental and fragile to changing water parameters: pH fluctuations, bacterial load, temperature, etc... as the discus: geophagus, Uaru's, altum angels, satanapurca's, to name a few of the more well known choices. I have some rare, wild hyphessobrycon and phenocogrammus species that are even more demanding than my discus. 

The idea that the discus has a "special" extra-ordinate demand for such particular conditions does not take into account the other freshwater fish that we keep that demand similar environmental conditions.

As far as discus, I have kept both domestic and wild, and while the domestics can take a bit more leeway- that give is a lot less than most would assume. Species adaption takes longer than a few generations, as Darwin made clear, our 100 years of playing with the genomes have not alleviated their demands for low- to nil bacterial load and a neutral pH in order to reproduce ( which is truly the measure of a fish that is well conditioned to its environment).

As far as scientific papers that will substantiate what breeders and experienced hobbyists have come to conclude through long association with these fish--- the research for aquarium fish, especially freshwater is not there. It is not a priority-- aquaculture is concerned with food fish, not ornamental. Unfortunately research is costly and funds go to areas of the greatest concern.

I do have access to scientific databases with the university I am affiliated with so I will make an effort to find some articles in the databases particular to discus that may shed some light on certain questions. One in particular that was earlier brought up: the mucus that the discus ( like the Uaru) exudes in the aquarium that has a growth inhibitor. Discus and Uaru are the only fish that exude this mucus in such a way, it has to do with the way the constant build-up of this mucus by these two species for reproduction/feeding of fry. 

This I know has a scientific article ( peer-reviewed) to back up this assertion, I have read it. I just need to locate it again and will then post it.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

The last few posts have been very interesting to me and I hope something more 'meaty' comes of it in terms of explaining why discus require the care and attention that they do in order to be healthy & thrive.

Having said that, I initiated this thread to try helping out new/wannabe discus-keepers get started properly with these beautiful, personality-imbued fish, as well as care for their ongoing health-retaining needs in the home aquarium, and I 
intend to continue doing so, as I have for the past number of years.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Interesting thoughts. I'm glad we're able to continue this conversation along a bit more and keep Paul's thread going in a positive direction.




Sub-Mariner said:


> I do not posses the cellular knowledge to tell you why the discus specifically does not thrive but I feel confident that the process is likely akin to humans trying to breath at high altitude. Sure, there is oxygen at high altitude, but in concentrations our bodies are not accustomed to, along with higher concentrations of other gases. Sure, we can adapt to a certain degree with an increased hemoglobin/hematocrit, among other shifts, but only within a certain range. Insert any other metaphor here for trying to breath anything besides O2 or drinking things containing your own waste. Therefore, not enough O2=not enough ATP production for cellular energy=ultimate cellular demise (oversimplified but you get the point).


I wonder now if there is something physical different with discus, their gills, the size of gills vs body size etc., compared to some other species that makes them a bit more susceptible to these impurities and/or leaves them less able to pull oxygen from the water. 

I also wonder if the skin of a discus is somehow different than other fish making them more susceptible for some reason. As far as I know Discus are the only fish to produce a slime coat for their young to feed off of. So do discus somehow "absorb" more from the water? (osmosis I suppose?)




Sub-Mariner said:


> Now, to address the discus adapting from native water quality to the tap water that many of us keep them in. Ultimately, this ability to adapt can be blamed on natural selection. Whoever the first person was to try and keep a discus in a tank, I would assume had trouble doing so. I would also assume they had more success the more closely they tried to imitate the natural environment of the discus. Once that was a success, eventually, someone figured out how to get them to breed. When the fry hatched, I'm sure some perished, but the ones that survived obviously had a more tolerant genotype in regards to water quality, likely partially inherited from their parents. This went on for generations, along with chance mutations, with the survivors passing on their hardier genotype and so on, until we ended up with discus that could acclimate.
> 
> Darwin's theory (while controversial to many) postulates that the longer a species survives, the more it adjusts to its climate and becomes more tolerant of what nature dishes out (or it ceases to exist). So, the longer discus exist in the wild, with fluctuating climate and conditions as they are today, the more tolerant the ones that propogate will become (in most cases).


The natural selection idea can likely be used to explain almost all the aquarium fish kept in the hobby today. It certainly makes sense why its easier now to keep discus than it was years ago. I wonder how long before the species continues to adapt and adjust to the conditions where most other hobby fish can be kept. 




Discusluv said:


> This is very good @Sub-Mariner and brings up an important point. There are many other fish endemic to the waters where discus are found that are just as temperamental and fragile to changing water parameters: pH fluctuations, bacterial load, temperature, etc... as the discus: geophagus, Uaru's, altum angels, satanapurca's, to name a few of the more well known choices. I have some rare, wild hyphessobrycon and phenocogrammus species that are even more demanding than my discus.
> 
> The idea that the discus has a "special" extra-ordinate demand for such particular conditions does not take into account the other freshwater fish that we keep that demand similar environmental conditions.


There are definitely other fish that are considered sensitive; similar to discus. However, it seems most of these other species only have the "extreme" sensitivity when dealing with wild caught fish. F1 and so on seem to adapt much quicker. At least from things I've read as I have no personal experience with any of those particular species you mentioned.


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## Sub-Mariner (Jan 25, 2016)

Iksdrinker, 

I am not sure about your questions regarding gill size etc. without some research, but I would say that if it is accurate that a discus absorbs from the water in any other way than their gills, then they would be made more susceptible to physiologic problems simply due to their internal:external exposure ratio. Being, well, discus in shape, this increases the amount of body surface area exposed to the external environment. This means that at the least, they will be more susceptible to temperature changes and whatever implications those may bring. The same concept also holds true for humans- infants are more vulnerable to temperature swings, etc because of their size and the amount of external exposure they receive in relation to it. This changes as they grow and as such they become less sensitive to things like hypothermia.

Finally, while I find this conversation interesting, I do not want to hijack Discuspaul's thread any further. If you wish to continue on, please feel free to PM me or start a separate thread- perhaps one is needed specifically for Discus Anatomy and Physiology.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Thank you Sub-Mariner for your thoughtfulness.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,I contacted Exotic Discuis via email and this was there reply,Hi Edward,

Our discus are from top breeders in Malaysia. We’re currently in the planning stage with our supplier for a big shipment to arrive in 3-4 week and should have the Red Ruby again then. 

Please feel free to let us know at anytime if you have any questions. 

Best Regards 
Jeff
Exotic Discus LLC
High Quantity Discus Is Our Specialty 

They have the Red Pandas I want in stock so what do you think of this plan, getting two of The Pandas from them and two others I want from Chicago Discus.I realize the extra shipping but when you want something it usually costs.the only question I have is getting fish from two different places.Any real problem if quarantine procedures are in place...thanks


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## Leaky Filter (Nov 30, 2011)

It seem the trend in discus leans towards hybrids that have colors that differ greatly from their wild counterparts. If a hobbyist sourced wild-strain fish, they're limited to either wild-caught fish or fish that are crossed with a hybrid of some kind. I don't know that I have seen multi-generation captive bred wild strains- blue, brown, green, or heckel. 

Is there a reason for this? Are hobbyists drawn to hybrids to such a degree that native-strain fish aren't desirable enough to breed as a staple in the hobby?

While I personally enjoy how far we can push coloration on fish, I am constantly drawn to the browns, blues, and blacks of native discus.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Doogy262 said:


> Hi Paul,I contacted Exotic Discuis via email and this was there reply,Hi Edward,
> 
> Our discus are from top breeders in Malaysia. We’re currently in the planning stage with our supplier for a big shipment to arrive in 3-4 week and should have the Red Ruby again then.
> 
> ...



It's a good sign that Exotic's discus breeder suppliers are from Malaysia - that's one of the foremost countries in the world by reputation for reliable breeders producing good to high quality discus.


Would be nice to know who the breeder is, but that shouldn't be necessary given the photos which show high quality.


Over the past 7-8 years I've bought nothing but Malaysian discus by a breeder named Forrest - one of the best known, most reliable breeder/exporters
of high quality fish worldwide.


Kenny's Discus in Daly City, Ca. (arguably the best retail discus supplier in all of the U.S.) imports Forrest discus from Malaysia.


No problem getting discus from 2 good quality sources, but to be completely safe you'd still need to do a proper quarantine before placing them together into the same tank. I can help you with that.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Leaky Filter said:


> It seem the trend in discus leans towards hybrids that have colors that differ greatly from their wild counterparts. If a hobbyist sourced wild-strain fish, they're limited to either wild-caught fish or fish that are crossed with a hybrid of some kind. I don't know that I have seen multi-generation captive bred wild strains- blue, brown, green, or heckel.
> 
> Is there a reason for this? Are hobbyists drawn to hybrids to such a degree that native-strain fish aren't desirable enough to breed as a staple in the hobby?
> 
> While I personally enjoy how far we can push coloration on fish, I am constantly drawn to the browns, blues, and blacks of native discus.



There are quite a few experienced discus-keepers & breeders that are drawn to keeping &/or breeding nothing but wild-caught discus. I know of several of them who do an excellent job, much prefer the wilds to domestic bred strains, hybrid or otherwise, and who have raised multi-generational offspring of wild-caught discus, e.g. F1's, F2's, etc.


I's not very common though because, well for one thing it's a lot more work breeding, and raising the young, generally speaking, than breeding & raising domestics; also prices for the wilds are usually significantly higher than for domestics, and availability as well as variety is generally quite low.

P.S. Another big reason I neglected to mention is that there are very few wild discus importers in North America who have been able to take the time & effort to develop reliable source connections in South America, and there are so few retail buyers around for them that it's difficult for them to be profitable.
I know of one wild discus importer located in Florida who recently had to close his doors cause he couldn't make a go of it.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

For you hobbyists keeping discus in planted environments, or planning to do so, here's a neat approach I ran into here on TPT, that I believe would help discus-keepers to develop & maintain good water quality & conditions in their tanks:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...move-organic-waste-detritus.html#post10898793


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## Leaky Filter (Nov 30, 2011)

@discuspaul

Thanks for your answer. Obviously, multiple generations of captive raised fish create fish that are better suited for a captive environment through survivor vigor, for lack of better words. Is there a breeder who specializes in say, F3 or higher wild-strain fish or a breeder who has wild _patterned_ fish that have been bred for multiple generations? Or, is this a situation where hundreds of generations of breeding are required to breed out the more difficult nature of wild fish?

It seems like there would be someone in a worldwide market who would do something like that. I remember reading some of Axelrod's books on discus and the hurdles those guys jumped through just to get a wild-caught fish to eat, let alone thrive and breed.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Leaky Filter said:


> @*discuspaul*
> 
> Thanks for your answer. Obviously, multiple generations of captive raised fish create fish that are better suited for a captive environment through survivor vigor, for lack of better words. Is there a breeder who specializes in say, F3 or higher wild-strain fish or a breeder who has wild _patterned_ fish that have been bred for multiple generations? Or, is this a situation where hundreds of generations of breeding are required to breed out the more difficult nature of wild fish?
> 
> It seems like there would be someone in a worldwide market who would do something like that. I remember reading some of Axelrod's books on discus and the hurdles those guys jumped through just to get a wild-caught fish to eat, let alone thrive and breed.



I honestly don't know the answer to that, but I suspect that it would take several or more generations of wild discus spawns to become fully "domesticated", for lack of a better word, and as easy to manage as one can do with what the hobby calls domestic discus.
I'm sure it's been done, or being done somewhere, but the hobbyists I know that are breeding wilds are only into 2nd or 3rd generation - I'll have to ask them for answers as to how they feel the most recent spawns are behaving in terms of being more easily looked after than the original wild parents.


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## cozzuol (Feb 26, 2008)

discuspaul said:


> Dashing around the tank at full speed on occasion is something I experienced myself quite a few years ago - cause unknown - and I eventually lost that fish when it jumped out of the tank.


That looks like "crazy discus syndrome", a neurological disease that exhibits this kind of symptoms. Normally is fatal, and I lost fishes because of it, but recently I had success to cure an adult wild aequifasciatus using long-term salt ar 5gr/l in a hospital for a week. It took 4 days to re-adapt the animal no normal salinity levels, but after that is does not exhibit any symptom and recovered completely.



> Quite honestly, I really don't think it has anything to do with the ferts, or any element within them.


My tank is planted and I use EI based liquid fertilization daily with a dosser. Never found any problem with it.

Cheers


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## cozzuol (Feb 26, 2008)

Hello,
In my 90g tank I use a drop system adding 50 liters of water daily, so in a week it changes 100% of the volume. This is the closest we can reach to a "natural flowing system" in a home tank, I guess. As my tap water is quite soft, no need to deionize it. I passed through a pre-filter of activated carbon and zeolite before reach the aquarium.
I keep only wild discus, of both species, apparently, they like the system.

Cheers


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

cozzuol said:


> Hello,
> In my 90g tank I use a drop system adding 50 liters of water daily, so in a week it changes 100% of the volume. This is the closest we can reach to a "natural flowing system" in a home tank, I guess. As my tap water is quite soft, no need to deionize it. I passed through a pre-filter of activated carbon and zeolite before reach the aquarium.
> I keep only wild discus, of both species, apparently, they like the system.
> 
> Cheers


Great to hear this system is working out well for you! Discus lore would say this is not an entirely efficient system however as adding 90 gallons of freshwater into a 90 gallon tank isn't exactly the same as removing 90 gallons and then replacing. There is a calculator here Drip System Water Change Rate Calculator (W.C.S. Ltd.) which indicates your system is really only doing a weekly "water change" of 63% instead of 100%. 

But if this system is working for your wild discus I'd keep on doing exactly what you've been doing!


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

*fish vitamins*

Hey Paul,just doing some more research and wonder if you have used or know about water column vitamins for Discus...


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Doogy262 said:


> Hey Paul,just doing some more research and wonder if you have used or know about water column vitamins for Discus...



No Ed, I've not heard of them.
Do you have any further info on them - maker/brand name/internet link ? 


As you probably know, there's many essential vitamins incorporated into good brand name frozen foods, flakes, pellets & so on - so it would seem that water column vitamins may be one of those items marketed to entice hobbyists to spend more money on stuff that's really not needed - but that's not to say that I'm entirely skeptical & negative, and I would like to know more about them.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Just a reminder that I'm here to help any new or wannabe discus-keepers with any questions or concerns you may have.
Don't hesitate to post - I'll reply promptly.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,been busy but the vitamin thing was a discussion I saw on simply discus and was just curious about but after more research I know that a well balanced diet gives them all the vitamins they need the problem arises when they are fed a single type of food.As for my new arrivals I got two beauties from Chicago Discus,a royal red and a royal gold will post some pics when i can,I also tried Exotic Discus as I was looking for some called Red Pandas,I bought two and i have to admit they are perfect beautiful colors great shape and nice size.Due to space restraints I added the C.Discus to my tank hers have always been no problem,the E.Discus i quarantined in a bare bottom 10 gallon tank with daily water changes.They look great are eating like crazy and show no signs of any problem.i will probably hold them for a few more days maybe a week and than release them.In my main tank over the last 3 months I have fixed some mistakes.First I remove the bulk of the plants they were growing way to big and taking up to much room as well as making cleaning harder.I now have the whole front half clear of plants with only a sword a red lotus a few tiger vals and some green gecko crypts along the back wall.I have increased the temp to 84 from 82 and now do 30% water changes every two days and a 50% once a week.I re added the large Turquoise Discus that had been picked on after he was fully healed and with the addition of the other two the bullying has nearly stopped and with the two from Exotic it should get even better.All in all at this point things have never been better so it seems if you learn from your mistakes,fix them and move on you can succeed.After getting all 7 together I will post some pics,. as always thanks for the help...Ed


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

That's all good news, Ed - looking forward to seeing the photos of your beauties !


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

O.K.Paul here they are all together and doing great.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Wow @Doogy262 those are some stunners!

What a beautiful display. Thanks for sharing.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Thanks Gregg,took some trial and error but i may have these guys figured out...


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

They look superb, Ed !!!! Congrats.


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## rollinghighlander (Apr 25, 2018)

Are these guys big poopers?

I have 5 gourami and 3 bigger tetras and they cover my whole sand bottom within 2 days...

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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Yes, they're pretty big poopers, but their waste would never even begin to cover the bottom of a good-sized discus tank.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,just curious if you or anyone has tried or know of this product thanks
https://www.amazon.ca/Beef-Heart-Mix-Cichlids-Tropical/dp/B01BYUPR6G


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## rollinghighlander (Apr 25, 2018)

discuspaul said:


> Yes, they're pretty big poopers, but their waste would never even begin to cover the bottom of a good-sized discus tank.


What about a 90g 48x20x20

Are they agressive?

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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Discus are cichlads so there is some aggression.They form a pecking order which is why they should be kept in schools of 6 or more, as for the pooping if your ready to do regular maintenance than a 90 gal. is perfect...


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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

I'm having a bit of a problem with my Discus after moving them into the 120 gallon.

I properly cycled the tank prior to switching them over from the 36 gallon. My water parameters are 8.0 PH, 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites, and 5ppm nitrates. I'm running 2 sunsun 402B's, a Finnex 500 watt heater along with a 200 watt heater on the opposite end just to be safe. Both are set at 76 degrees. I know this is on the low end for discus, but they were at this temp for 3 years or so prior to me getting them, so I wanted to keep them where they were comfortable.

As for tank mates, I have:
2 Discus (they have been the sole pair for several years)
6 bloodfin tetras
6 emerald eye rasboras
6 glass catfish
4 white clouds
4 CPD's
2 GBR's
2 Otto Cats
2 Venezuelan cory cats
1 spiny eel
1 Red Bristle nose pleco 

I do 40-50% water changes 2 times per week, and do not age the water. I treat it with prime immediately after completing the water change

Substrate is BDBS and I have numerous dwarf sag, dwarf hairgrass, a couple val's, and one large piece of Malaysian driftwood.

Onto the problem- One discus (Blue leopard) is absolutely flourishing. He's fat, healthy, and always swimming around the tank. The other is (I believe) a red spotted green discus. Both appear to be full sized, with the leopard being about 6.5" and the green being 5.5-6". The green has since become extremely dark and will "hide" behind the driftwood pretty much constantly. It has an appetite although it appears extremely underweight compared to the leopard, I'm feeding a mixture of bloodworms, hikari pellets, and Cobalt pellets. I've noticed the leopard does bully the green a bit, but nothing that I would say is extensive. It's stomach appears sunken and it will shake when it notices that it's time to eat. 

This has been going on now for about 2 weeks. The other fish have been slowly added after being quarantined in a separate tank to check for illness. No infection, fin rot, or anything else is evident.

Where would you guys start?

Picture is before the move and current.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

rollinghighlander said:


> What about a 90g 48x20x20
> 
> Are they agressive?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk



Not sure how to respond properly to that question - but here goes:


- Yes, a pair of spawning discus can be 
aggressive defending their eggs or young in the near territory of the spawning;
- And yes, they can also be somewhat aggressive towards others of their kind when first establishing pecking order status, but that's usually temporary and generally soon gets ironed out.
- And they might get somewhat aggressive with other aggressive 
species, like Angels for example, in order to defend themselves from the others' aggression, or in order to get their share of the food.


BUT, as a rule they are gentle and totally non-aggressive with tank-mates of most other species of fish (which can handle the higher discus temps and are more or less compatible with discus), particularly smaller fish which are not small enough to be tempting as a meal, like several species of Tetras, like Cardinals, Rummy-Noses, Lemons & others, and Cories or Rams, and many others.


Hope this answers your question ok.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Vriez said:


> I'm having a bit of a problem with my Discus after moving them into the 120 gallon.
> 
> I properly cycled the tank prior to switching them over from the 36 gallon. My water parameters are 8.0 PH, 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites, and 5ppm nitrates. I'm running 2 sunsun 402B's, a Finnex 500 watt heater along with a 200 watt heater on the opposite end just to be safe. Both are set at 76 degrees. I know this is on the low end for discus, but they were at this temp for 3 years or so prior to me getting them, so I wanted to keep them where they were comfortable.
> 
> ...



The last photo shows a discus which is clearly stunted and in extremely poor condition health-wise - and imo it will regrettably not likely last much longer.


The only reason I can come up with at the moment & seeing them only in photos, is that, given the tank conditions, i.e. planted & with substrate that can make it very difficult to keep squeaky clean, limited large water changes, the deterioration is likely a result of poor water quality and conditions.
And keeping them @ only 76 F for a lengthy period was very likely also a large factor in the development of the poor health situation. 


It's unfortunate, but to keep discus successfully one must start with the highest quality fish to begin with, and maintain them in a bare-bottom or minimalist environment with large frequent water changes, and very good tank cleansing routine, or they will slowly but gradually deteriorate over time.
That's my impression of your situation from the onset, & the problem that has developed over time.
Starting over properly is the only real true approach to succeeding.


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## rollinghighlander (Apr 25, 2018)

Are high temps really required?

I was in my lps, and they had the water down to 72 f / 22c. I asked about it, and they said they hey use to it.. is that true? I thought you had to have the temp up to 84f / 29c ?

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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Vriez said:


> I'm having a bit of a problem with my Discus after moving them into the 120 gallon.
> 
> I properly cycled the tank prior to switching them over from the 36 gallon. My water parameters are 8.0 PH, 0ppm ammonia, 0ppm nitrites, and 5ppm nitrates. I'm running 2 sunsun 402B's, a Finnex 500 watt heater along with a 200 watt heater on the opposite end just to be safe. Both are set at 76 degrees. I know this is on the low end for discus, but they were at this temp for 3 years or so prior to me getting them, so I wanted to keep them where they were comfortable.
> 
> ...


Hate to say it man, but your fish was sick way before you moved it. It's too bad that you didn't recognize this before adding stress to the situation.

I'm not one to give up on a fish, and I don't think yours is a lost cause. I would turn your old tank in to a hospital tank, bare bottom with a couple sponge filters, low light. Temp at 86*+, and treat with prazipro. With how emaciated the fish is worms are all but certain. Hopefully the appetite will return after the prazi, and you can bulk him back up. It will take some time.

Is 8ph normal for your area? Are the local breeders raising the fish in similar water?

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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I too might treat for intestinal parasites with Prazipro, but feel that all of the fishes may have already been exposed and might treat the whole tank of fishes albeit expensive for 120 gal.
Not much to gain if Discus are purged in quarantine but parasites exist in display tank or maybe not?
Would look closely at fishes poop to see if it is solid ,dark in color,or thin,white,grey,stringy.
The one other thing that I noted and feel as if it is important from what has been posted, is that you state that you add PRIME right after you complete your water changes.
Is best to Always treat new water added to the tank BEFORE it goes in the tank holding fishes, not after.
AngelsPlus.com also sell's medicated food's for parasites that I might use every couple month's after treating with the Prazipro.
Ken's Earthworm sticks, and Fluval Bug bites, would be good food's that I would add to their diet.
Everything you don't want to see regarding health of discus is evidenced by the second photo IMHO
Fish in second photo will never look like much but is not to say it and other's can't be healthier,happy,with good care.


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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

Thanks for the advice so far guys, I've quarantined it into the old tank with bare bottom and started medication last night. I'll let you guys know how it goes. It still has an appetite, so I'm hoping with time and care it'll bounce back to at least where it was before. As for temp, I've started to slowly raise it in the hospital tank.

I've tried bug bites, but they just don't seem interested in them. Before I got them (I inherited them) they were solely fed Hikari pellets, so it's been a challenge to get them to accept anything else (other than blood worms).

8.0ph is what's out of the tap here. I've read they like higher PH, do you think I should make an attempt to adjust it?

Lastly, how do you guys age and treat your water with such a large tank? The reason I treat post change is because I use a Python. I don't have the means to hold 60+ gallons remotely and get it up to temp prior to a change. If anyone has suggestions I'm all ears. With the 36 gallon I could fill a couple buckets and let them sit overnight, is that what you guys are doing?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

No,I would not mess with trying to adjust pH but leave it as is.
I too use Python to change water from my tanks and simply add enough PRIME to the tank for the total volume of water the tank holds, just before I send the water from the tap to the tank.
Most fishes like the blood worms but they are poor from nutrition stand point.
maybe 4% protein and 95 % moisture(water).


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

rollinghighlander said:


> Are high temps really required?
> 
> I was in my lps, and they had the water down to 72 f / 22c. I asked about it, and they said they hey use to it.. is that true? I thought you had to have the temp up to 84f / 29c ?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk




It's been shown many times that discus kept at temps below 80 F for lengthy periods of time never do well in the long run, and their health gradually deteriorates until they eventually perish.


As for trying to save an obviously very sick & frail discus, there are clear indicators in some cases that attempting to treat for a return to health is useless and a waste of time - it's like a dying person placed in palliative care when their condition is terminal.


That appeared to me to be the situation above, and given the tank conditions and overall tank maintenance regime, imho a complete start over was indicated to avoid further losses and more disappointment.


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## rollinghighlander (Apr 25, 2018)

Many thanks!

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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

discuspaul said:


> It's been shown many times that discus kept at temps below 80 F for lengthy periods of time never do well in the long run, and their health gradually deteriorates until they eventually perish.
> 
> 
> As for trying to save an obviously very sick & frail discus, there are clear indicators in some cases that attempting to treat for a return to health is useless and a waste of time - it's like a dying person placed in palliative care when their condition is terminal.
> ...




While I appreciate the feedback, simply killing off the discus because it's sick is not an option. As I said earlier, this was inherited from my Fiance's father, so it has a pretty large sentimental value for both her and I. 


Next time I hear about family being terminally ill, I'll be sure just to take them out back and put a bullet in their head, since that's essentially what you're telling me to do. 


If water temp really is as important as you say it is, I'll gladly bump the temp up. I just improperly assumed that if they lived their entire life at a certain temp to keep them there. How many degrees per day would you say is an acceptable change?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Vriez said:


> While I appreciate the feedback, simply killing off the discus because it's sick is not an option. As I said earlier, this was inherited from my Fiance's father, so it has a pretty large sentimental value for both her and I.
> 
> 
> Next time I hear about family being terminally ill, I'll be sure just to take them out back and put a bullet in their head, since that's essentially what you're telling me to do.
> ...



I presume you've heard of the term 'necessary culling' as applied to discus particularly - based on my over 40 years of discus-keeping, this is one of those times.
I have not to my recollection ever seen a discus in as bad a shape as that one is - you'd be doing it a favor by 'culling' it.
If you try to medicate it with Prazi-pro or some other medication, in it's heavily weakened condition that in itself would very likely do it in quite quickly. 


Your comment about 'bullet in the head'
was uncalled for if not inflammatory.


Gradual temperature change of 4-5 degrees F over a full day wouldn't hurt the fish - so 2 day's of that change
would be ok for the discus, but you have other fish in the tank that may not handle a normal discus temp of 82-83 well - so why not aim for 80 F if you wish to do so solely for the remaining discus.

Please understand I'm only trying to help out by suggesting you deal with this poor situation in a realistic way.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I wish to add for those of you who do not know me well, I'm not one to do much, if any, sugar-coating, preferring to call a spade nothing but black if I feel it's needed.

If I'm viewed at times as being too brutally honest, I'd rather be that way than to give someone false hopes over an irretrievable situation. My aim is to be as helpful as I can in this thread, but to be totally honest doing it.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

discuspaul said:


> I wish to add for those of you who do not know me well, I'm not one to do much, if any, sugar-coating, preferring to call a spade nothing but black if I feel it's needed.
> 
> If I'm viewed at times as being too brutally honest, I'd rather be that way than to give someone false hopes over an irretrievable situation. My aim is to be as helpful as I can in this thread, but to be totally honest doing it.


Paul I completely get it. I've been following this, and I know where you are coming from.

I have had similar discussions with folks about Rainbows. When I see certain symptoms, I know what the end result almost certainly will be. Rather than watch them slowly wither, suffer, and die, my advice usually is to euthanize right away.

And keep in mind, trying to save one may put an entire tank at risk. Disease can spread. With a tank full of mature Bows (or Discus), and knowing the time and effort involved bringing them to full maturity, that is a huge risk. And one that very rarely, if ever, is successful.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Thank you Gregg - very well said.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

discuspaul said:


> I wish to add for those of you who do not know me well, I'm not one to do much, if any, sugar-coating, preferring to call a spade nothing but black if I feel it's needed.
> 
> If I'm viewed at times as being too brutally honest, I'd rather be that way than to give someone false hopes over an irretrievable situation. My aim is to be as helpful as I can in this thread, but to be totally honest doing it.



I agree Paul.
My response was aimed at other fishes OP list's ,not just the poor Discus specimen.(believe they can thrive yet).
We seldom can expect to hear all of the info ,or rest of the story, as to how or what contributes to possible issues but can only respond to what has been posted.
Do believe as Paul says,that there is little hope for the Discus pictured in second photo provided,, but with good care,water quality,diet,the other fishes might yet provide pleasure.
If soon to be Father-in-law presented me with such a gift, or task as the case may be,, would be leery of future gift's.:surprise:


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

roadmaster said:


> I agree Paul.
> My response was aimed at other fishes OP list's ,not just the poor Discus specimen.(believe they can thrive yet).
> We seldom can expect to hear all of the info ,or rest of the story, as to how or what contributes to possible issues but can only respond to what has been posted.
> Do believe as Paul says,that there is little hope for the Discus pictured in second photo provided,, but with good care,water quality,diet,the other fishes might yet provide pleasure.
> If soon to be Father-in-law presented me with such a gift, or task as the case may be,, would be leery of future gift's.:surprise:



Yes, I agree - glad you added that for clarification.


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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

Paul, I'd like to apologize for the way I came off in my reply to you. I let the emotions get the best of me in this situation. I'm very new to this hobby, so being told I essentially killed one of these guys even though I was trying my damn'dest was frustrating. I am normally one to appreciate brutal honesty, but this was a situation I don't think I was prepared to hear it with. 

A quick update on the situation-
I've removed the sick Discus from the main tank and he's now in a 36 gallon bare bottom all by himself. I started medicating with Dr. G's De-Wormer Caviar and keeping my fingers crossed. He's starting to look a little better and isn't acting nearly as stressed. His color is slowly coming back but I am well aware I'm never going to have a pristine show quality Discus. As long as it's happy and fairly healthy I'm good with it for now. It's still too early to tell if he will recover, but I'm giving it a solid effort. I'm just happy to see it's personality is starting to come back. He was always the one to swim right up to the glass and look to see what was going on, and he's starting to do that again.

As for the main tank, I haven't noticed any signs of worms or parasites, but I've decided to take the precaution and am also feeding the De-Wormer to that tank as well. Temp of main tank has been raised to 80 and the hospital tank is at 86 currently.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Good to hear your fish may not be suffering unnecessarily, and I sincerely hope it will in fact recover with time.
It is possible.
Best of luck to you.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

@ discuspaul... I am in a difficult situation and I'm trying to develop options. My 150 gallon tank with more than 200 Neon Tetras appears to have been infected by Neon Tetra disease Pleistophora hyphessobryconis. If it is in fact this parasite as confirmed by an acid fast stain then there is no cure. I am currently treating with Paragaurd and ich shield food and trying to aggressively cull infected fish.
1. Should I decide to remove all the cardinals and Neons do you know if Discus can contract NTD? 
2. Is there an adult size which would allow me to continue simply doing 40% water changes and gravel vacs? The tank is heavily planted and C02 injected.

I guess I'm asking if I buy healthy high quality adults will they be able to thrive given normal tank husbandry? 
Should that not be feasible I have a 265 that I am gathering equipment for. The tank will be drilled and daily water changes would be alright. Could I make the tank presentable with maybe a large amount of driftwood and epiphytic plants attached? Would C02 injection and fert dosing be acceptable in this tank?
If so, what size should I aim for?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I have never seen or heard of an actual case of Neon tetra disease, so I have no knowledge of it.
Your Questions:
1. --If it actually is such a disease, sorry I have no idea if discus could/would contact it.
Since you're treating with some medication, and culling specimens which appear to have some form of infection, or some other health issue, I don't believe it would help to at this stage to significantly disrupt your tank (& therefore possibly unduly stress the discus), by removing all of the neons & cardinals.

Assuming the discus are not yet showing any signs of health issues of cross-contamination from whatever it is that is affecting the neons, you might consider relocating the discus by themselves to another clean water bare-bottom tank & provide large daily wcs for a while to hopefully maintain them in good health & thriving.
2. - Not sure why you're asking that question - are you planning on getting other discus at some later date ? If so, get them from a good source for supplying quality fish & get 4"-4.5", or larger specimens if you want to maintain 40% wcs, which I presume would be daily, or some other fairly frequent routine. 
BTW, keeping any discus of whatever size in a well/heavily planted tank with gravel substrate & using CO2 is taking a fairly large risk of eventually losing the discus to health issues unless your wc & tank cleansing regimen is of the highest order.

Your mention of using the 265 gal tank would be good with daily wcs and a reasonable amount of driftwood w/plants attached. Running CO2 in any tank with discus can be problematic unless you have significant experience using CO2 and can maintain good control of daily pH swings.
Hope this helps.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Hey Paul,

I've always has an eye for Discus, eventually I plan on doing a 120+ gallon focusing mainly on the Discus first and plants second. I was wondering about some tank makes, more or less your "favorite" style of tank mates for Discus?

I like the idea of the Discus being the focus fish, with a school of smaller dither fish and maybe some cory's. But, with that, said I see way too many tanks with cardinals / neons as the dither fish. I was hoping for something a little different. 

I really like the idea of tons of micro fish like chili rasbora and pygmy cory cats or something similar. Are there any fish I should stay clear of with a plan like this? 

What is your opinion on oto cats? Do they run the risk of damaging Discus slime coats?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

2 most important tips for being successful at discus-keeping:

- Besides maintaining a routine of large, frequent fresh water changes and an unfailing regimen of tank cleansing, the 2 most important things to do are:

1) Buy your discus only from an experienced well-known supplier with a reputation for supplying good quality, well-shaped fish;
resist getting small, young, immature discus which are unusually prone to the development of health issues, for cost reasons; 

2) Keep things as SIMPLE as possible, so as to avoid any potential alterations, changes or problems with your ability to maintain high water quality & conditions in the tank - 
this means: being careful with the type of substrate you use in a planted tank, and keeping plantings as modest or minimalist as you can; using no chemicals to alter the key parameters of your tank water, pH, KH or GH, etc.; avoid using any specialty tank equipment - an example being CO2 as a focus for plant growth as opposed to risking the welfare of your discus; If you MUST have tank-mates, keep the numbers low, and ensure they are fully compatible with discus and can handle the higher discus temps; never neglect, even temporarily, your regular w/c and tank cleaning routine.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Quagulator said:


> Hey Paul,
> 
> I've always has an eye for Discus, eventually I plan on doing a 120+ gallon focusing mainly on the Discus first and plants second. I was wondering about some tank makes, more or less your "favorite" style of tank mates for Discus?
> 
> ...



There are a number of tetras besides Cardinals (Neons do not generally do well at the higher discus temps and are not good discus tank-mates) that are good discus tank-mates - examples are Lemon tetras & Rummy Noses, but there are several others too ( Glow Lights, Head & Tail Lights, Bloodfins, mature adult Ember tetras, Pristellas) - 
- Also German Blue Rams; 
- mature Rasboras;
- Hatchet Fish

Micro fish like Chili Rasboras, and small, young Pygmy Cories are NOT good discus tank-mates as they are likely to get eaten by discus.
Steer clear of fish that do not do well at temps above 80 F, very fast-moving fish, or nippers &/or more aggressive fish.


Oto cats, along with SAE's, and all Plecos (except BNP's), and other catfish types may take a liking to discus slime coats as part of their diets (particularly as they get older, larger and lazier). So they should all be avoided.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

discuspaul said:


> I have never seen or heard of an actual case of Neon tetra disease, so I have no knowledge of it.
> Your Questions:
> 1. --If it actually is such a disease, sorry I have no idea if discus could/would contact it.
> Since you're treating with some medication, and culling specimens which appear to have some form of infection, or some other health issue, I don't believe it would help to at this stage to significantly disrupt your tank (& therefore possibly unduly stress the discus), by removing all of the neons & cardinals.
> ...


I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. I do not currently own Discus although I have always wanted them.
Neon Tetra disease is a microsporidia that attacks some types of tetras and recently was shown to have invaded populations of aquarium zebrafish used for laboratory purposes. Unfortunately there isn't much legitimate research on it to include what other species may find themselves susceptible. 

If I'm being totally honest I would basically like to follow whatever specific advice you have for keeping Discus in perfect health. If I purchase high quality adults would 3 be happy in an established 265? I have very good C02 equipment and I'm able to keep parameters very stable and would keep C02 likely around 20ppm. Mostly ferns, anubias, buce and mosses. I could easily do twice weekly 40% water changes, but no more. How often do you feel vacuuming substrate should be done? I will buy 2 high quality heaters and utilize and inkbird controller to maintain 86*. Do you know anything about nitrate ppm that they prefer? Hardness in terms of GH and kDH? I'm very nervous to invest that kind of money into fish, but I don't feel that I can keep up on daily water changes and gravel vacs in addition to multiple feedings. 
Are DAILY water changes a requisite? Could a drip system be utilized instead with maybe weekly gravel vacs? I am very appreciative that you emphasized that... daily just can't happen at this point...
Most importantly I don't want to slowly kill fish.
What specific diet do you suggest? 
My husbandry practices are very consistant and I have a background in microbiology, genetics, etc so I feel I can easily diagnose most common ailments through gram staining, and various selective and differential media testing.
I would just like a beginner START HERE.... so that I can ensure that I'm meeting their requirements while I get to know them.
1 big thing is I would like to have as small as a group as possible... and I would like to add them all at once... in a perfect world ALL fish at once to minimize chances of pathogen introduction.
What are their common ailments?
I would like to make sure my stocking allows pairs to form and others to still have their space given its an 8 foot tank. 
What about flow/turnover? I'll be utilizing a very large sump with (I hope) occassional periods of very high flow from peacemakers to stir up detritus so that it can be collected.
I really appreciate you offering your expertise. At this point I equate discus to having children. You're never ready, but at some point you are as ready as you can be!


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

The Dude1 said:


> I'm sorry. I should have been more clear. I do not currently own Discus although I have always wanted them.
> Neon Tetra disease is a microsporidia that attacks some types of tetras and recently was shown to have invaded populations of aquarium zebrafish used for laboratory purposes. Unfortunately there isn't much legitimate research on it to include what other species may find themselves susceptible.
> 
> If I'm being totally honest I would basically like to follow whatever specific advice you have for keeping Discus in perfect health. If I purchase high quality adults would 3 be happy in an established 265? I have very good C02 equipment and I'm able to keep parameters very stable and would keep C02 likely around 20ppm. Mostly ferns, anubias, buce and mosses. I could easily do twice weekly 40% water changes, but no more. How often do you feel vacuuming substrate should be done? I will buy 2 high quality heaters and utilize and inkbird controller to maintain 86*. Do you know anything about nitrate ppm that they prefer? Hardness in terms of GH and kDH? I'm very nervous to invest that kind of money into fish, but I don't feel that I can keep up on daily water changes and gravel vacs in addition to multiple feedings.
> ...



My advices/suggestions are as follows:


- Keeping just 2, 3, or 4 discus is not a good number - too much risk of stressful & serious pecking order issues.
Get no less than 5, preferably more - the more the better to dissipate pecking order problems. And get them all at once from the same source.
- Since you're only planning to do no more than 40% w/cs twice a week, I strongly urge you to get discus of not less than 4", preferably 4.5" or more.
Starting out with discus even in a lightly planted environment using CO2 is far from ideal by any stretch, so increase the % quantity of W/C's, whenever you can.
This will be better for the discus in more ways than one - example: discus cannot tolerate nitrates higher than 20 ppms for very long. before it becomes harmful to them - maintaining nitrates @ 5PPM or less is ideal - strive for not more than 10 ppm at all times - more or larger wc's should allow you to accomplish this.
- Do substrate vacs no less frequently than with each w/c, and do them well, along with tank glass wipe-downs, and any other tank cleansing needed (e.g. removing decaying plant matter or other debris).
- If you get fish of 4"-4.5", 2 feedings a day will suffice. If 5" or larger, once a day is fine.
- Diet: Most discus will usually be happy with a wide-ranging diet, (they generally like variety) but with heavier focus on protein. Some Examples:


Freeze-dried blackworms are excellent, frozen blood worms are ok -but not more than occasionally (say once or twice a week); frozen Mysis or adult brine shrimp; Any good quality flakes (example: Omega); pellets, like discus bio-gold or other brands. 


- Discus can tolerate fairly wide ranges of GH & KH, so this should not be an issue.
- Water-flow - be careful with flow being too high - this can stress discus, thereby adversely affecting their health over time. 
- 86F is generally too high for discus except in certain specific circumstances. Most discus-keepers maintain not more than 82-83.


One final suggestion:
Let me know your location, and I'll direct you to the nearest sources for good quality, well-shaped, healthy discus - this is very important to being successful with discus-keeping.


Have I answered all your questions sufficiently ?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

discuspaul said:


> My advices/suggestions are as follows:
> 
> 
> - Keeping just 2, 3, or 4 discus is not a good number - too much risk of stressful & serious pecking order issues.
> ...


FANTASTIC!! Yes I very much appreciate your help. I live in Tampa Florida. Lots of choices, but I have no clue as to which sources would supply quality fish. Seems most LFS get their stock from Seacrest farms


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

Hi Paul,as always great advice especially the numbers of Discus,that is where i ran into my problems since increasing to 7 in my 90 gallon things have come together very nicely,this is a video taken last night of mom and dad trying{unsuccessfully} to protect their eggs


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Very nice, my friend - you've done well !


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

The Dude1 said:


> FANTASTIC!! Yes I very much appreciate your help. I live in Tampa Florida. Lots of choices, but I have no clue as to which sources would supply quality fish. Seems most LFS get their stock from Seacrest farms



Over the past few years, there have been a number of closures of quality discus suppliers in Florida, so the selection is rather limited at the moment, but you might try Florida Discus in Sarasota - approx. an hour's drive away from you. Google them for specifics & contact info.
Be sure to go in person to view the fish first-hand yourself, and select fish that are active, unafraid to approach the front of the tank, and appear healthy and well-shaped. 
Let me know how it goes after your visit there if you go.

I have heard that Seacrest Farms supplies quality discus, but one doesn't know how well, or otherwise, the end retailer who gets them from Seacrest continues to care for them following receipt. If you find what seems to be a good outlet, please let me know & I'll see what I can find out.


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## MasterofCloak (Jun 27, 2017)

discuspaul said:


> Over the past few years, there have been a number of closures of quality discus suppliers in Florida, so the selection is rather limited at the moment, but you might try Florida Discus in Sarasota - approx. an hour's drive away from you. Google them for specifics & contact info.
> Be sure to go in person to view the fish first-hand yourself, and select fish that are active, unafraid to approach the front of the tank, and appear healthy and well-shaped.
> Let me know how it goes after your visit there if you go.
> 
> I have heard that Seacrest Farms supplies quality discus, but one doesn't know how well, or otherwise, the end retailer who gets them from Seacrest continues to care for them following receipt. If you find what seems to be a good outlet, please let me know & I'll see what I can find out.




I believe that Florida Discus has been closed due to the fact that their Facebook page has not been active since 2015 and their website is no longer active. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

MasterofCloak said:


> I believe that Florida Discus has been closed due to the fact that their Facebook page has not been active since 2015 and their website is no longer active.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If that is in fact the case, the nearest other south florida supplier that I know of is Jack Wattley's in Miami, from which firm you should be able to order online for air shipment to Tampa, or FedEx/UPS overnite delivery.
Over the past few years, I understand Wattley's customer satisfaction has been a bit spotty, so if you order from them, be sure to ask for advance pics of the actual fish they will be sending you.


The next nearest quality supplier appears to be Carolina Discus of Wingate, N.C. (Eric Lacroix).


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

What do you guys think of these? They are from a local breeder that keeps his Discus in our tap water. He wants to supply the LFS with Discus. He provided these as a test run. The owner of the LFS approached me about purchasing them at an insane price and provide long term feedback on their health. He knows my dedication and love for my tanks and wants to know if the breeders statements regarding their quality is truthful. They are big.. at least 5" probably closer to 6". Would they work in a 75 gallon for several months until I can get the 265 up and running. The tank is kept between 82 and 83*. I can raise the temp and relocate the Rummynose, Bloodfins, and Celebes.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I only count 3 discus - is that correct ? I also see an Arowana in the background - is it in the same tank or in an adjacent tank ?

Also, it's unclear to me if the discus were in your 75 gal tank when the pics were taken, or if they're in a tank at the local LFS.
If they're at the LFS, that's good, because keeping them in a tank with that type of gravel substrate is far from ideal - so get them home in your 75 with bare bottom, or PF sand bottom. 
If there are only 3 discus ( which may cause pecking order issues over time) they would be just fine in your 75 with the bloodfins & rummy-noses, etc. if there aren't a huge scad of those in your tank. Keep your temp @ 82-83F - don't raise it.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

BTW - The bi-annual North American Discus Association Show is being held July 12th to 15th @ the Renaissance Woodbridge Marriot Hotel near Newark, N.J.
I'm booked to be there.

Any of you discus devotees thinking of attending?


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## ausram (Jan 23, 2017)

Hi Paul- 

Hoping you can give me some feedback on my plan to keep discus. To give you some background, I have kept high-tech planted tanks, wild altums, SPS corals, nano reefs- but never Discus. They have been on my bucket list for a while and I finally have a tank set up for them. I have a 60 gallon heavily planted, low tech (crypts, java ferns, anubias, buces) tank with a sump ready to go. It has pool filter sand in the front, and aquasoil in the back for the plants. After a month it is finally cycled and ready for fish. I would love to have 5 discus in the tank and plan on 50% water changes 3x per week. If you are aware of any Discus breeders in Oregon that would be appreciated as well. 

Do you see any issues with this? I would love to hear any recommendations. Alternatively if you do not think this is the way to go I am open to that as well!


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

discuspaul said:


> I only count 3 discus - is that correct ? I also see an Arowana in the background - is it in the same tank or in an adjacent tank ?
> 
> Also, it's unclear to me if the discus were in your 75 gal tank when the pics were taken, or if they're in a tank at the local LFS.
> If they're at the LFS, that's good, because keeping them in a tank with that type of gravel substrate is far from ideal - so get them home in your 75 with bare bottom, or PF sand bottom.
> If there are only 3 discus ( which may cause pecking order issues over time) they would be just fine in your 75 with the bloodfins & rummy-noses, etc. if there aren't a huge scad of those in your tank. Keep your temp @ 82-83F - don't raise it.


Yes those are at the LFS not my tank. I didn't see another fish in there with them. They do have their larger rarer fish in that area though... arowanna, some larger Birchirs and rope fish. 
Yes there are only 3. For the best chance of success how many more should I try to get at a comparable size?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

ausram said:


> Hi Paul-
> 
> Hoping you can give me some feedback on my plan to keep discus. To give you some background, I have kept high-tech planted tanks, wild altums, SPS corals, nano reefs- but never Discus. They have been on my bucket list for a while and I finally have a tank set up for them. I have a 60 gallon heavily planted, low tech (crypts, java ferns, anubias, buces) tank with a sump ready to go. It has pool filter sand in the front, and aquasoil in the back for the plants. After a month it is finally cycled and ready for fish. I would love to have 5 discus in the tank and plan on 50% water changes 3x per week. If you are aware of any Discus breeders in Oregon that would be appreciated as well.
> 
> Do you see any issues with this? I would love to hear any recommendations. Alternatively if you do not think this is the way to go I am open to that as well!



To be very honest with you, it's never a good idea to start out with discus (having no prior experience with them) keeping them in a heavily planted high tech tank - if you want to succeed at keeping them that is - without experiencing any early (and expensive) losses. 


Best way to start with keeping discus in a 60 gal tank (if you don't care to have a pristine bare-bottom environment that's super easy to keep squeaky clean) is to go only with a light layer of pool filter sand, some modest driftwood & just a few plants attached to the wood - in other words - very simple to maintain.
Along with that, you should get 5 or 6 reasonably good-sized, near adult fish - say 4" or so - from an experienced, reputable good quality source you can count on - nearest to you would be Kenny's Discus in Daly City, Ca. (near San Fran.) 
If you do that, you can get by with doing 3X weekly w/c' s of 50% or so, and by doing vacs with each w/c & a good tank cleansing routine.


That's my best advice to succeed at discus-keeping.

Bump:


The Dude1 said:


> Yes those are at the LFS not my tank. I didn't see another fish in there with them. They do have their larger rarer fish in that area though... arowanna, some larger Birchirs and rope fish.
> Yes there are only 3. For the best chance of success how many more should I try to get at a comparable size?




You really need to have at least 5 or 6 discus to prevent the potential for serious pecking order issues.
That number will be just fine in a 75 gal tank if you only keep a moderate number of tank-mates, but preferably, none at all - to avoid any risk of cross-contamination.


The above discus from that breeder look to be in pretty decent condition, so if you want to go that route, get at least 5 of roughly similar size from that same source (that hopefully have all been kept together for a while), and give it a go.
Don't forget though, that it would be best to maintain a minimalist environment in your 75, and not neglect frequent water changes of as large a quantity as you can - say 50% or more at least 3 X a week.
Best of luck to you.

Bump:


The Dude1 said:


> Yes those are at the LFS not my tank. I didn't see another fish in there with them. They do have their larger rarer fish in that area though... arowanna, some larger Birchirs and rope fish.
> Yes there are only 3. For the best chance of success how many more should I try to get at a comparable size?




You really need to have at least 5 or 6 discus to prevent the potential for serious pecking order issues.
That number will be just fine in a 75 gal tank if you only keep a moderate number of tank-mates, but preferably, none at all - to avoid any risk of cross-contamination.


The above discus from that breeder look to be in pretty decent condition, so if you want to go that route, get at least 5 of roughly similar size from that same source (that hopefully have all been kept together for a while), and give it a go.
Don't forget though, that it would be best to maintain a minimalist environment in your 75, and not neglect frequent water changes of as large a quantity as you can - say 50% or more at least 3 X a week.
Best of luck to you.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

The Dude1 said:


> Yes those are at the LFS not my tank. I didn't see another fish in there with them. They do have their larger rarer fish in that area though... arowanna, some larger Birchirs and rope fish.
> Yes there are only 3. For the best chance of success how many more should I try to get at a comparable size?




You really need to have at least 5 or 6 discus to prevent the potential for serious pecking order issues.
That number will be just fine in a 75 gal tank if you only keep a moderate number of tank-mates, but preferably, none at all - to avoid any risk of cross-contamination.


The above discus from that breeder look to be in pretty decent condition, so if you want to go that route, get at least 5 of roughly similar size from that same source (that hopefully have all been kept together for a while), and give it a go.
Don't forget though, that it would be best to maintain a minimalist environment in your 75, and not neglect frequent water changes of as large a quantity as you can - say 50% or more at least 3 X a week.
Best of luck to you.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

My apologies - I honestly don't know what's gone wrong with the system having repeated my last post of advices several times, and with my being unable to correct them by deleting the so-called 'bumps' - but please bear with me - I could not do anything to correct or avoid it.


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## ausram (Jan 23, 2017)

Appreciate the honesty! Sounds like I better hold off for now. I'll keep these beautiful fish on the bucket list!


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## CharleeFoxtrot (Jan 29, 2004)

ausram said:


> Appreciate the honesty! Sounds like I better hold off for now. I'll keep these beautiful fish on the bucket list!


I came to that conclusion early on in this thread, since I can't commit to the type of maintenance these beauties need.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

CharleeFoxtrot said:


> I came to that conclusion early on in this thread, since I can't commit to the type of maintenance these beauties need.



Good decision, because the only way to keep discus healthy & thriving is to provide them with the high quality of water and conditions they require to do well - there's no way around it - if you can't put in the time & effort to do that, and there's some neglect in your maintenance routine, you'll eventually lose them, usually sooner rather than later. It's that simple.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Yesterday I received a 'visitor message' from a member looking for advice & answers to several questions.

I didn't take note of the inquirer's username ID, but responded to all his questions & submitted my commentary in the available box.

Immediately afterwards the system 'froze up' on me and I couldn't do anything but 'X' out of the forum. I have since been unable to locate anything regarding or leading me to that visitor message so as to identify who it was.
I have no idea whether my response was received by the enquirer and whether he or she was satisfied with the info received.

I'm posting here in the event that the visitor will see this post and identify himself so I can communicate with him or her.

The only thing I can recall was that the user name ended [email protected] - I believe.

Otherwise can anyone tell me how I could bring up/recall that user message ???
Is there a link somewhere in my profile, the private messages box, or elsewhere, which would enable me to do that ? Can anyone help me with this ?

Bump: Yesterday I received a 'visitor message' from a member looking for advice & answers to several questions.

I didn't take note of the inquirer's username ID, but responded to all his questions & submitted my commentary.

Immediately afterwards the system 'froze up' on me and I couldn't do anything but 'X' out of the forum. I have since been unable to locate anything regarding or leading me to that visitor message so as to identify who it was.
I have no idea whether my response was received by the enquirer and whether he or she was satisfied with the info received.

I'm posting here in the event that the visitor will see this post and identify himself so I can communicate with him or her.

The only thing I can recall was that the user name ended [email protected] - I believe.

Otherwise can anyone tell me how I could bring up/recall that user message ???
Is there a link somewhere in my profile, the private messages box, or elsewhere, which would enable me to do that ? Can anyone help me with this ?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

discuspaul said:


> BTW - The bi-annual North American Discus Association Show is being held July 12th to 15th @ the Renaissance Woodbridge Marriot Hotel near Newark, N.J.
> I'm booked to be there.
> 
> Any of you discus devotees thinking of attending?


Paul, do you think it would be worth attending given my circumstances? I will not be keeping discus for many years (still have medical school, etc. ahead of me) but have been a lifelong discus fan. I live within a 30 minute drive.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Axelrodi202 said:


> Paul, do you think it would be worth attending given my circumstances? I will not be keeping discus for many years (still have medical school, etc. ahead of me) but have been a lifelong discus fan. I live within a 30 minute drive.




I don't see why not - even though I'm not aware of any circumstances which may cause any impediment to your attending - I think you'd enjoy it - not only seeing show championship discus from all over the world being judged (several Asian suppliers will be attending with discus brought in from home), as well as wild caught discus, but you'd also get to meet & mingle with a lot of fine people - mostly members of simply discus.com - many of whom I know somewhat from my membership on SD over the years but have never met in person. I also think you'd learn a hell of a lot about discus !


This will be my first attendance at a NADA show, as I had to cancel both the 2014 & 2016 shows for good reasons - all past attendees say it's a blast & I'm looking forward to it. 
Main days will be Friday 13th & Sat. 14th, & since you live so nearby & can come and go as you please, it'd be a breeze - all you'd need to do is spend $25. for a 2 year membership to NADA as far as I know - unless you also wish also to attend a special Saturday night dinner for $55. with several excellent speakers on hand to provide entertaining & interesting discus talks.


It's being held at the Renaissance Woodbridge Marriot Hotel - 515 Hwy. 1 south in Iselin, N.J.


A Registration desk will be open on the evening of Thursday 12th (perhaps earlier) so you can pay your fee, get signed in & be provided with ID & all show event details.

Bump:


discuspaul said:


> I don't see why not - even though I'm not aware of any circumstances which may cause any impediment to your attending - I think you'd enjoy it - not only seeing show championship discus from all over the world being judged (several Asian suppliers will be attending with discus brought in from home), as well as wild caught discus, but you'd also get to meet & mingle with a lot of fine people - mostly members of simply discus.com - many of whom I know somewhat from my membership on SD over the years but have never met in person. I also think you'd learn a hell of a lot about discus !
> 
> 
> This will be my first attendance at a NADA show, as I had to cancel both the 2014 & 2016 shows for good reasons - all past attendees say it's a blast & I'm looking forward to it.
> ...



PS. - Tell them discuspaul sent you and I'm sure you'll be well treated - lol


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

@ axelrodi:

If you aren't already a member, you might consider joining the simplydiscus.com/forum - if you're favourably considering attending the July NADA show, you'll have a month or so before the show to get to know, & to read many informative posts from long-time SD members, many of whom will be attending the NADA show. The forum is a wealth of information from many well-experienced discus-keepers.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

I'm just reviving this thread a bit - for those discus fans who might have missed it first time around.


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## Jjonesls1 (Apr 26, 2017)

Hey Paul. Looking for your recommendation for discus tank mates in the planted tank. Until recently I had two clown loaches for control of pest snails. In the last week they developed a taste for discus slime coat, and had to be removed.

Which species would be suitable house mates for my discus while keeping the snails in check?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Jjonesls1 said:


> Hey Paul. Looking for your recommendation for discus tank mates in the planted tank. Until recently I had two clown loaches for control of pest snails. In the last week they developed a taste for discus slime coat, and had to be removed.
> 
> Which species would be suitable house mates for my discus while keeping the snails in check?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk



Wish I could help - there are a good number of compatible discus tank-mates, but none that I know of which make a steady diet of snails. (Imo, there are very few fish species that regularly eat snails.)
If you wish examples though, of good discus tank-mates that can readily handle the higher discus temps, I'll be glad to provide a list.


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## Vriez (Mar 20, 2018)

Paul,
What are your thoughts on mixing Discus sizes? I finally lost the battle with the sick discus from a month or so ago, it had a surge of good health for about a week and then slowly declined again so I took the advice given and euthanized him/her.
I'm now left with only 1 full grown Discus. I can't afford to go out and get 5-6 full grown fish, but would be able to get 3-4 inch tank mates. Would you anticipate problems with 1 full sized discuss and 5 or 6 smaller ones?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Vriez said:


> Paul,
> What are your thoughts on mixing Discus sizes? I finally lost the battle with the sick discus from a month or so ago, it had a surge of good health for about a week and then slowly declined again so I took the advice given and euthanized him/her.
> I'm now left with only 1 full grown Discus. I can't afford to go out and get 5-6 full grown fish, but would be able to get 3-4 inch tank mates. Would you anticipate problems with 1 full sized discuss and 5 or 6 smaller ones?



You'd likely be quite ok with getting 3"-4" tank-mates for your full-sized discus, although you'd likely experience normal pecking order establishment activity, which should not be any more serious than if all the discus were roughly of similar size.
Smaller ones than that could very well be a problem in terms of some harm being done to one or more.


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