# Fact or Myth - Liquid Carbon harmful to Bucephalandra



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

The Buce in my tank were becoming mushy and loosing leaves... One of my friends told me that liquid carbon is harmful to Bucephalandra...

Is this fact or Myth? 

Gok


----------



## novv (Jun 14, 2012)

I dose excel everyday that i’m home and nothing seems to effect the buch one of them even floweredn


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Glutaraldehyde does kill some plants, but in my experience they are thin walled plants such as Val. It appears to have wiped out subwassertang in my own tanks but others claim to use it with that plant with no issues. I would not expect it to kill Buce, just because of how thick and rigid it is. As with most additives, dosage is likely the biggest factor.


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Glutaraldehyde does kill some plants, but in my experience they are thin walled plants such as Val. It appears to have wiped out subwassertang in my own tanks but others claim to use it with that plant with no issues. I would not expect it to kill Buce, just because of how thick and rigid it is. As with most additives, dosage is likely the biggest factor.


It is an algaecide...

But I don't have sufficient info to support either of the theories... Harmful or not harmful... 

Gok 



novv said:


> I dose excel everyday that i’m home and nothing seems to effect the buch one of them even floweredn
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I envy that Buce flowering... I lost all the leaves and just the stem is left over... This has happened in two tanks and I do not have a substantial info to prove it is not harmful... 

Gok


----------



## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

There's no such thing as liquid carbon, carbon is a gas and only becomes a liquid under pressure, yes its detrimental to plants and livestock. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

p0tluck said:


> There's no such thing as liquid carbon, carbon is a gas and only becomes a liquid under pressure, yes its detrimental to plants and livestock.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


I have been using liquid carbon for years now and not all plants or livestock are affected....

Only Buce is affected so far and there is no scientific evidence to this... 

Gok


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Carbon dioxide is a gas, carbon is not. It is not possible to create liquid carbon without extremely high pressure and temperature. When people incorrectly refer to “liquid carbon” for aquarium plant use, they are talking about gluteraldehyde (found in Excel, Enhance, etc.), which is a carbon supplement. It is not liquid carbon or liquid CO2.

The companies that provide this for aquarium use do not promote it as an algaecide. However, it can be used as an algaecide (red algae). It is also very useful in providing a little extra carbon than what is dissolved under normal atmospheric conditions and this can make a noticeable difference in plant health when CO2 is not injected.

At recommended dosages:

- It will damage Anacharis, Vals and moss balls (which are actually a form of algae) and there are reports of damage to subwassertang, but is quite beneficial to the vast majority of plants. It is possible to acclimate problem plants to it. 

- It will not harm fish.


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

Deanna said:


> Carbon dioxide is a gas, carbon is not. It is not possible to create liquid carbon without extremely high pressure and temperature. When people incorrectly refer to “liquid carbon” for aquarium plant use, they are talking about gluteraldehyde (found in Excel, Enhance, etc.), which is a carbon supplement. It is not liquid carbon or liquid CO2.
> 
> The companies that provide this for aquarium use do not promote it as an algaecide. However, it can be used as an algaecide (red algae). It is also very useful in providing a little extra carbon than what is dissolved under normal atmospheric conditions and this can make a noticeable difference in plant health when CO2 is not injected.
> 
> ...


I have used excel to get rid of hair algae by spraying it using a syringe on the affected area... Agree on the effect of it on certain mosses.. But will it affect Buce? 

Gok


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

aaron.in said:


> I have used excel to get rid of hair algae by spraying it using a syringe on the affected area... Agree on the effect of it on certain mosses.. But will it affect Buce?
> 
> Gok


I've never had an issue using it with Buce. In fact I have some Buce in my current setup and am using it daily at normal dosing levels.


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

aaron.in said:


> I have used excel to get rid of hair algae by spraying it using a syringe on the affected area... Agree on the effect of it on certain mosses.. But will it affect Buce?
> 
> Gok


As @Blue Ridge Reef mentioned, it affects the simpler celled plants, such as those mentioned. It should not affect Buce, but I do not recall ever seeing a comment on Buce, either way.


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

Thanks guys... It definitely looks the issue is not with this dosing. 

Gok


----------



## Jaye (Mar 11, 2015)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Glutaraldehyde does kill some plants, but in my experience they are thin walled plants such as Val. It appears to have wiped out subwassertang in my own tanks but others claim to use it with that plant with no issues. I would not expect it to kill Buce, just because of how thick and rigid it is. As with most additives, dosage is likely the biggest factor.



I have two huge buces in my 125 gallon tank. The tank gets 70ml of Metricide (8x the suggested dosing for excel) every day. So, no. Cabomba and vals are the only things I’ve seen it affect. I _wish_ it would kill Subwassertang! I can’t get rid of the stuff.


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I couldn't either until a heavy Excel dose, but you're the second person who has said the same. It straight up turned white (guppy grass did too). Now I'm wondering what secondary factors are going on for that to happen. Doesn't seem possible a plant could build up tolerance. @aaron.in, I wish I could have had "a list of plants you may want to avoid unless you want them for life" when I started out. Java moss is in every aquarium I own and I didn't deliberately put it in most. I like subwassertang in shrimp tanks, but wish I'd never put it in two of mine (I'd try the Excel blast but shrimp). Duckweed has taken up hours of my time but at least duckweed floats.


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

@Jaye Thanks a mill for confirming that.
@Blue Ridge Reef Yes, that would have been nice to have a list... In fact, I never had any other plants but for Buce...

I have fallen in love with Buce, unfortunately I couldn't keep them alive in my tanks... 

Gok


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

aaron.in said:


> @Jaye Thanks a mill for confirming that.
> @Blue Ridge Reef Yes, that would have been nice to have a list... In fact, I never had any other plants but for Buce...
> 
> I have fallen in love with Buce, unfortunately I couldn't keep them alive in my tanks...
> ...


Since the glut dosing has been ruled out as a killer of Buce, and you are concerned about it not growing, maybe you should start a new post along the lines of "Can't Get Buce To Grow". If you do, post as many parameters as possible. These would include:

- Light: PAR reading at the substrate and photoperiod?
- CO2 setup (if any) and how you measure CO2 levels in the water if you do inject CO2?
- Current NO3, PO4, GH, KH, pH and TDS readings?
- What you are dosing (product and quantity) and how often?
- Substrate type and how long has it been in place?
- What is your filter setup?
- Cleaning regimen (filter and water change frequency and amount)?
- Circulation: surface rippling and are all plants gently moving from top to bottom?
- What is your water source and do you use a water softener?


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Are you growing anubias in this tank as well? I have found the growing conditions to be very similar to Buce, so if yes and the Anubias is unaffected you might want to note differences between the two in your setup.


----------



## aaron.in (Jun 13, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> Are you growing anubias in this tank as well? I have found the growing conditions to be very similar to Buce, so if yes and the Anubias is unaffected you might want to note differences between the two in your setup.


Anubias are doing great... 

Gok


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

aaron.in said:


> Anubias are doing great...
> 
> Gok


Then i would be very doubtful that it's tank conditions. Is the buce new? Are they all affected. Is it in the sun/shade?


----------



## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Did you start from tissue culture or emersed buce? Some varieties are more used to being emersed (skeleton king~).
I've seen it melt somewhat almost like a crypt... sometimes it grows back in sometimes the rhizome just dies/melts along with it  Like everytime I add a tissue culture of buce to a shrimp tank the original leaves get mostly eaten by shrimp/snails and then the new leaves they leave alone. I don't think it has a problem with intense light or glut though really, but it doesn't like direct application of h2o2.


----------



## Dfeagley6 (Oct 22, 2017)

Below is an informative article on Glutaraldehyde. It will help you understand what you're actually dosing into your tank. I can't say from personal experience if glutaraldehyde will or will not severely damage Buce. 
Before I owned any Buce, I used to dose metricide 14 at the recommended amount. I would also remove plants from the tank and spray a diluted solution on parts of plants that had excess algae. If I did not wash it off after a couple minutes, the whole stem would be dead the next day. 
Using H2O2 spray/diluted soak for individual plant treatment, or just removing the portion of plant in poor health has been a more effective method, and less volatile for me. That's what made me decide to stop dosing metricide. As a result, I did not notice any increase in algae, and overall plant health seems to be better, which in turn will do a better job in eliminating algae. 
Glutaraldehyde may not be the cause of your problem, but I think removing it from the equation will help narrow down the issue. 

https://www.jbl.de/en/blog/detail/1...U_MnsD6ryuttAqRxWJYpB4ew0GgFajC61lPlgd53C4Ius


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

That is an article written by a company trying to sell CO2 equipment by convincing people not to use a competitive product. It pops up along with the "OMG: glutaraldehyde is used to STERILIZE things in hospitals!" fear mongering. Rather than get into all of the debunking here, please see this thread, regarding that article: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1292759-interesting-write-up-liquid-carbon.html


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Deanna said:


> That is an article written by a company trying to sell CO2 equipment by convincing people not to use a competitive product. It pops up along with the "OMG: glutaraldehyde is used to STERILIZE things in hospitals!" fear mongering. Rather than get into all of the debunking here, please see this thread, regarding that article: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1292759-interesting-write-up-liquid-carbon.html


+1

I made that comment in that thread and was ridiculed for it. The company ONLY sells co2 equipment so they are making you fearful of using liquid carbon without discussing any of the benefits.


----------



## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Please read this article, I'm not telling you not to use it, but please be informed on the affects it did indeed have on livestock and plant structure.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8FYCvd5hiS36ONwr6JAq0qJFOGfoGUl/view?usp=drivesdk

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> Please read this article, I'm not telling you not to use it, but please be informed on the affects it did indeed have on livestock and plant structure.
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8FYCvd5hiS36ONwr6JAq0qJFOGfoGUl/view?usp=drivesdk
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


We discussed that article here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/1290295-hair-algae-back-vengeance-unable-grow-plants.html.

That study was using concentrations way beyond those recommended for aquarium use and was inconclusive even at that and calling for more studies.


----------



## Dfeagley6 (Oct 22, 2017)

Deanna said:


> That is an article written by a company trying to sell CO2 equipment by convincing people not to use a competitive product. It pops up along with the "OMG: glutaraldehyde is used to STERILIZE things in hospitals!" fear mongering. Rather than get into all of the debunking here, please see this thread, regarding that article: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1292759-interesting-write-up-liquid-carbon.html


They could just as easily sell "liquid carbon" products, ignore the facts, and profit off hobbyists looking for an easy co2 route. Instead they chose to not profit off liquid co2 products, and state the facts about glutaraldehyde. The linked thread was very long, so I did not read all of it, but I did not see any facts stating any benefits that outweigh the negatives. Starting a debate about glutaraldehyde was not my intention. If you believe the article is not credible, then by all means ignore it. The purpose of my initial post was to share my experience to try to help. Good luck.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Dfeagley6 said:


> They could just as easily sell "liquid carbon" products, ignore the facts, and profit off hobbyists looking for an easy co2 route. Instead they chose to not profit off liquid co2 products, and state the facts about glutaraldehyde. The linked thread was very long, so I did not read all of it, but I did not see any facts stating any benefits that outweigh the negatives. Starting a debate about glutaraldehyde was not my intention. If you believe the article is not credible, then by all means ignore it. The purpose of my initial post was to share my experience to try to help. Good luck.


I called out the article as being biased immediately. It has to be. The company has one horse in the race, pressurized co2. You can't make that leap that they can easily sell liquid carbon (there is no liquid co2, co2 is a gas). They even put a picture of a pressurized system over each page of the article (pretty subtle). 

If you read the thread, you will see there is NO DOUBT that liquid carbon, glut, excel) whatever you want to call it is effective with certain plants under many parameters. It was tested over and over again, by non-biased professional planted aquarists.


----------



## Dfeagley6 (Oct 22, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> I called out the article as being biased immediately. It has to be. The company has one horse in the race, pressurized co2. You can't make that leap that they can easily sell liquid carbon (there is no liquid co2, co2 is a gas). They even put a picture of a pressurized system over each page of the article (pretty subtle).
> 
> If you read the thread, you will see there is NO DOUBT that liquid carbon, glut, excel) whatever you want to call it is effective with certain plants under many parameters. It was tested over and over again, by non-biased professional planted aquarists.



Obviously, by my quotation marks, I was referring to glutaraldehyde. I never said it was actually liquid co2, and I can "make the leap" that they could sell glutaraldehyde products. They could sell whatever they want. This is getting silly, and I knew it would, so take MY PERSONAL EXPERIENCE for what it's worth and I'm done with this thread.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Dfeagley6 said:


> but I did not see any facts stating any benefits that outweigh the negatives.



Matter of opinion it's a pretty good algaecide..
Plenty of "studies" showing increased growth over non-glut treated tanks..




> Using glutaraldehyde or commercial “liquid carbon” products as a “carbon source”also just plain doesn’t work.



There is plenty of disagreement w/ this statement..




> I have problems with _how_ people use these products, (at larger than manufacturer recommended doses, which they never suggested) and problems with misinformed people who insist on calling it "Liquid CO2". My biggest problem, though, is the serious, documented health concerns for people who buy and use generic glutaraldehyde just because it's less expensive, and suggest that others do the same, without significant warnings on how to handle a dangerous chemical safely....
> Whoever made the leap from Excel being equal to glutaraldehyde in the first place needs a really hardy "Gibbs slap" (for all of the NCIS fans) on the back of the head!



FUD...


like.. why not just pour "safe" Bleach in your eye...or drain cleaner is even better..
NaOH is great at denaturing proteins.. i.e turn liquid egg to solid..
Almost everything is dangerous to some people..
I hear Nitrate test kits have some "nasty" chemicals as well..




https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/hospital/hazards/glutaraldehyde/glut.html
Spo you understand I'm not trying to minimize anything..



> Bump: Health effects of glutaraldehyde exposure include:
> 
> Short term (acute) effects: Contact with glutaraldehyde liquid and vapor can severely irritate the eyes, and at higher concentrations burns the skin. Breathing glutaraldehyde can irritate the nose, throat, and respiratory tract, causing coughing and wheezing, nausea, headaches, drowsiness, nosebleeds, and dizziness.
> 
> Long-term (chronic) effects: Glutaraldehyde is a sensitizer. This means some workers will become very sensitive to glutaraldehyde and have strong reactions if they are exposed to even small amounts. Workers may get sudden asthma attacks with difficult breathing, wheezing, coughing, and tightness in the chest. Prolonged exposure can cause a skin allergy and chronic eczema, and afterwards, exposure to small amounts produces severe itching and skin rashes. It has been implicated as a possible cause of occupational asthma.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Dfeagley6 said:


> ... *I never said it was actually liquid co2*....





Dfeagley6 said:


> .... Instead they chose to not profit off *liquid co2* products, and state the facts about glutaraldehyde...


Are these not your quotes?

I'm not arguing the negative effects if dosed incorrectly, but there is no debate that it helps plants grow. In a well light tank (full of stems) the excel/glut would do very little, but most people don't have dutch tanks and in the majority of cases it helps.


----------



## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Deanna said:


> We discussed that article here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-algae-back-vengeance-unable-grow-plants.html.
> 
> 
> 
> That study was using concentrations way beyond those recommended for aquarium use and was inconclusive even at that and calling for more studies.


Yes but excel is different than commercial glut, it's actually safer I'll have to find the actually document, I've also killed an anubias with excel, it's starting to grow back but I literally killed every leaf on it, you all can use what you want but I don't support it as with a balanced tank, if you're low tech with proper lighting, correct plants and correct dosing of ferts you can have a beautiful tank without the poison. 

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> 04-21-2005, 09:28
> Re: Curious about the science behind Excel, Paraguard, and Stressguard
> 
> Sorry to take so long in answering your query... we are have just finished up a move to our new (and larger!) building this past week. To answer you question: this is an exclusive Seachem trade secret. It is based on many years of in house testing and research that shows a tremendous increase in growth similar in nature to that seen when CO2 is used. Polycycloglutaracetal is an isomeric form of glutaraldehyde... however it is less reactive and more easily utilized by plants as a carbon source. Once we have patented the product we would then be in a position to release detailed scientific studies (for trade secret reasons until then of course).


https://www.seachem.com/support/for...cience-behind-excel-paraguard-and-stressguard
Many consider that marketing fluff..

Just do a google search for......Polycycloglutaracetal. See how scientific it is..



> The commercially available product by Seachem called Flourish Excel TM has a rather oddly termed compound called ‘Polycycloglutaracetal’. Based on the curiously formulated name, it appears that Seachem just made it up to describe a concoction of aqueous Glutaraldehyde with one or more chemicals of undisclosed nature. It therefore follows, that you will not find this fictitious compound on any MSDS or official chemical register of compounds.


https://barrreport.com/threads/glutaraldehyde.4161/

BTW: Excel is now at the same "active ingredient" concentration as Met14..


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

jeffkrol said:


> There is plenty of disagreement w/ this statement..


 That it adds CO2? It positively does not add a measurable amount with a drop checker even at crazy high doses (I've done it).



I'm also weary from debating what it does and does not do because it seems to be a circular conversation that leads nowhere. It's a fine algaecide and doesn't contain copper like so many, and no doubt that eradicating algae leaves more nutrients and arguably CO2 for our vascular plants. And full disclosure I sell and occasionally use the product. It has its place and I'll gladly pose next to a 4 liter bottle of the stuff. My problem with the marketing of it is that the vast majority of hobbyists who come in my store sincerely believe it's liquid CO2 and thus a liquid alternative to pressurized. I've heard so many times a variation of, "I'm just going to buy the good lights and use CO2 Booster rather than go through the trouble of a CO2 system." And I can't really fault them for getting that impression.



It's a rather fascinating chemical compound when you look at the many uses. I've read that it was first used for wart removal and is currently used as an antiseptic, leather conditioner, oil fracking fluid, and algaecide. Makes one wonder how many chemical compounds in use in other industries may be of benefit for our hobby.


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> Yes but excel is different than commercial glut, it's actually safer I'll have to find the actually document, I've also killed an anubias with excel, it's starting to grow back but I literally killed every leaf on it, you all can use what you want but I don't support it as with a balanced tank, if you're low tech with proper lighting, correct plants and correct dosing of ferts you can have a beautiful tank without the poison.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk


Yes, as you said: "proper" lighting is the key to this. Although Excel/glut helps, you don't need it with "proper" lighting. In my case, when I had a low-tech setup, I pushed lighting too much because I wanted to see my fish. This hurt the plants and helped the algae. Adding the Excel/glut (both work equally and are safe when handled properly) solved this in my too-high light setup.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Just for the record, there is no argument that if overdosed both excel and glut can be harmful to plants/animals. This is simply does it help plants grow or not. This might explain how a product like excel would work. Written by Karen Randall. A well know author/speaker of aquatic plants/aquariums.

"... As far as I'm concerned as well as some very knowledgeable PhD level scientists, it is actually a mild algaecide, which *kills some or all of the microscopic film of algae that grows on plants kept under less than ideal conditions.* (if you don't believe this happens, look at a leaf under a microscope sometime) *This, in turn allows the plant, itself, better access to the nutrients and CO2 that ARE available within the system. **So the plants DO benefit from Excel under some circumstances*, but not for the reasons stated on the bottle. I do NOT believe that plants use Excel (OR Glutaraldehyde) directly as a "carbon source". 

Again not how it works, that it does work. It's not going to be noticeable in a hi-tech tank loaded with stems.


----------



## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

> by Karen Randall
> "... As far as I'm concerned as well as some very knowledgeable PhD level scientists, it is actually a mild algaecide, which *kills some or all of the microscopic film of algae that grows on plants kept under less than ideal conditions.* (if you don't believe this happens, look at a leaf under a microscope sometime) *This, in turn allows the plant, itself, better access to the nutrients and CO2 that ARE available within the system. **So the plants DO benefit from Excel under some circumstances*, but not for the reasons stated on the bottle. I do NOT believe that plants use Excel (OR Glutaraldehyde) directly as a "carbon source".


 Call it “Liquid snails” for cleaning leaves.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

I use Excel in my low-tech aquarium as often as I think about it. Im terrible that way- I forget to fertilize and dose Excel. Most likely why Ill never have great looking plants. I also angst about Excel's cumulative effects on _ME_. Warranted or not; there is something about the smell that induces me to consider --- this product should be handled with care. I always wash my hands immediately after using. Again, this worry may be irrational- but, ...

When I first started using it [ as a beginner to keeping plants] it was easy to be persuaded that the product was a Co2 replacement because it says on the bottle "carbon replacement." There were also many people recommending it as such on less informed forums. Of course, as you become more "educated," you learn that : just because it says "carbon" on the bottle does not mean it is equitable to CO2. The light bulb goes on: "Oh! [you say ] I feel kinda silly for believing that it was a carbon replacement..." 

Let's be a little more understanding of the beginner and their mistakes in understanding all the complexities of fish-keeping/aquatic plant care. Make it a teachable moment.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> That it adds CO2?


Read it more like this..




> blah blah blah...also just plain doesn’t work.


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm not sure what that means.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> "... As far as I'm concerned as well as some very knowledgeable PhD level scientists, it is actually a mild algaecide, which *kills some or all of the microscopic film of algae that grows on plants kept under less than ideal conditions.* (if you don't believe this happens, look at a leaf under a microscope sometime) *This, in turn allows the plant, itself, better access to the nutrients and CO2 that ARE available within the system. **So the plants DO benefit from Excel under some circumstances*, but not for the reasons stated on the bottle. I do NOT believe that plants use Excel (OR Glutaraldehyde) directly as a "carbon source".


Certainly can't disagree but the funny thing is.. at least according to this (oldish) paper they don't really even know how it exactly works as a sterilizer.. 


> Glutaraldehyde possesses unique characteristics that render it one of the most effective protein crosslinking reagents. It can be present in at least 13 different forms depending on solution conditions such as pH, concentration, temperature, etc.
> 
> However, the exact molecular composition of glutaraldehyde solutions, as well as which component is the most reactive, is debatable despite plenty of knowedge. As a result, the reaction mechanism of glutaraldehyde with protein amino groups is not clearly understood, as illustrated by the large number of mechanisms reported in the literature and summarized in this review. No single mechanism seems to be responsible for glutaraldehyde crosslinking with proteins.


https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/47a3/863dccfa2332c742eeb61f4a120d4f378191.pdf

That glut breaks down to CO2 is known..though most agree the levels would be miniscule..
THERE is the Citric Acid Cycle to consider.. adding some validity to the "liquid carbon" claim..



> Evidence shows that glutaraldehyde is capable of being utilized for photosynthetic processes. The
> proposed mechanism suggests that glutaraldehyde can be converted to glutaric acid, which in a series of reactions can be converted to alpha-ketoglutarate, and in turn fed into the citric acid cycle, which will produce CO2.


Need to find the "evidence" though..
https://praquatics.com/forums/threads/glutaraldehyde-revisited.2566/

nobody says it can't be a number of "effects"...



> Glutaraldehyde is readily biodegradable in the freshwater environment and has the potential to biodegrade in the marine environment. Aquatic metabolism studies suggest that glutaraldehyde, under aerobic conditions, is metabolized to CO2 via glutaric acid as an intermediate. Under anaerobic conditions, glutaraldehyde is metabolized to 1,5-pentanediol. Pretreatment with sodium bisulfite is the best method for inactivating glutaraldehyde prior to disposal to treatment systems.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0147651300920311
"Liquid Carbon" like "Global Warming" are just unfortunate names.... 

wee bit more from Seachem:


> Flourish Excel works by utilizing photosynthetic intermediates; that is, compounds that plants would naturally produce during photosynthesis.


Whether it's used as a photosynthetic intermediary, direct CO2., algaecide or any combination of the three is sort of mute..
Seems to work is the bottom line..sort of.
Using it would be personal choice.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I'm not sure what that means.


sorry my point was "define "just doesn't work" Seems to work fine..  regardless of why...
Wasn't debating liquid carbon,gas co2, ect ect..


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Ah, fair enough.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> Call it “Liquid snails” for cleaning leaves.


I could buy that (minus the slime and poop of course.)


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)




----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

This comment someone left on youtube really sums up his videos (Part 1 & 2)

"What would be extremely more helpful is your experience and recommendations for the use of the product, not just the science and unanswered questions. I have been debating whether to try or not and your 2 videos did not help."

Same on the forum. Experience using it is king and under different setups so people know when to use it.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

For me personally it's around as much as PRIME..
If, being the lazy sort, algae starts to get the upper hand.. dose.. 

Current usage is 1/2ml/gallon every 2 days till algae recedes..Yes 1/2ml/gallon and some would call that a low dose..
To be honest, "I" have yet to find what good "normal" doses do..


Btw REALLY good on BBA...

I've killed some (one time) fish BUT it really was a fluke as far as I can tell.
2 Buenos Aries tetras w/ columnaris were susceptible for some reason to that high of dose.
and a healthy Chinese algea eater.. THAT was really an ? .
All I can think of is he was directly under a pour. I prefer to treat at night..


3 years later.. no issues w/ either plants or any fish inc . BA Tetras...
corys, tetras, angels, platys ,cichlids, danios.. ect. all fine. I usually find more creative ways to end them.. 

Vals are known to be susceptible but some say you can acclimate them to glut..
Discus people generally won't use it.

If I wanted CO2 I'd get CO2..


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Discus people generally won't use it.


I think that @Discusluv uses it all the time.


----------



## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jeffkrol said:


> ....
> If, being the lazy sort, algae starts to get the upper hand.. dose.. .
> 
> ...If I wanted CO2 I'd get CO2..


Two extreme ends of it. Forget the algae benefits. it's got nothing to do with being lazy if your running low-tech and want the extra boost. It works, I've seen it myself in many setups.

It's never going to be a replacement for co2, but in borderline growing conditions it could make the difference between a plant living or dying.


----------



## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> I think that @Discusluv uses it all the time.




Yes, minimally, about 10 ml in 60 gallon 3x weekly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Deanna said:


> I think that @*Discusluv* uses it all the time.



Yea but I just remember "stuff" from a like conversation awhile ago.. 


It didn't seem very popular nor my suggestions on using it..


----------



## Aquaglory (Apr 18, 2021)

I came across an article that stated that Bucephalandra does not like temperatures above 79 degrees F. This might be the case, because when I first got the Buce during cooler weather, it looked healthy. It started melting when the house temperature started to go up and the tank temp rise above 80F (up to 83F). 

I was searching because, despite my Anubias doing very well, my Buce seemed to be melting away at a steady pace. Interesting about the H2O2, because I have used it in my 10 gallon and the Buce is in direct flow of the filter stream where I often dose the H2O2 for better spread. I noticed the most melt with temp, though.


----------



## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Returning to the OP question of whether Buce is affected by Excel. IME, no, as I dosed Excel at initial high rate in weekly water change for years and have never observed impact on Buce. But I have read that, including from Karen Randel, that H2O2 can affect Buce. I never dose but spray H2O2 on exposed plants during water change and have not observed impact on Buce either. Nevertheless, Buce are not as hardy as Anubias, grow slower, and over the years, I lost a few Buce for unknown causes, just melted away one day after growing for a while.


----------

