# 32 Gallon Semi-Dutch



## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Previous Layouts

FTS (1/29/2019)








FTS (3/3/18)








FTS (7/17)








FTS (3/10/17)








FTS (11/15/16)








Initial Layout (7/1/16)








Original Tank Specs
Tank: 32 gallon Mr. Aqua Frameless Low Iron W24 x D18 x H18 (in)
Filtration: Eheim Pro 3 Ultra G 90; Eheim Pro 4+ 350
CO2: GLA PRO-SS CO2 System [Two Stage]; Two 18" Rex Grigg Reactors
Lighting: 24" T5 ATI Dimmable SunPower 6 x 24W
Heating: Hydor 200W Inline
Substrate: ADA Aqua Soil Amazonia

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*Going Dutch*
Over the past year I have become more and more interested in the Dutch style of aquascaping, which I would not have expected, given that nature style scapes are big part of what pulled me into the planted side of the aquarium hobby. But for whatever reason, I’ve found that the most enjoyable aquariums for me recently are the Dutch styled ones. Probably has something to do with the fact that Dutch style emphasizes the plants, while nature style seems to have gravitated increasingly toward an emphasis on hardscape - the majority of contest nature scapes these days contain more rock than anything else. That’s no dig on the nature style. I still love the nature style, and the hardscapes that people are creating are mind blowing. For me right now, it’s about the plants.

So in the spring I decided to make the conversion to Dutch my summer project. The tank being converted was a ‘tree’scape nature style established a little over a year ago (32 gal Mr. Aqua). I have spent the last few months now contemplating this project, growing out some of the ancillary elements for the tank (i.e., hardscape materials like moss covered branches and rocks and a moss wall), and sourcing plants - things are finally starting to take shape. At this point I have a plan and all of the plants/materials. Time to start executing. More details to come.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Excited to see how this goes


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*The Dutch Aquascaping Style*

If you’re looking for specifics on the Dutch aquascaping style, there’s not a whole lot out there (that I’ve found) written in English. The best write-up I have found is this Crash course Dutch style Aquascaping | UK Aquatic Plant Society over at UKAPS. The author provides a very nice overview of the Dutch style. In addition to that thread, there is a handful of blog postings and forum journals which contain some excellent information on specific techniques. Stephan Mönninghoff over at ExtraPlant.com wrote about his trip to the Netherlands Extraplant Blog | Aquarium Plants. José Antonio Jurado Rivera kept a journal of his Dutch tank over UKAPS 300L pseudo-Dutch style Planted Tank | UK Aquatic Plant Society – this tank ultimately won the 2014 AGA Dutch category. Finally, TPT user @Saxa Tilly keeps a fascinating journal of his Dutch tank over at The Barr Report Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report. Basically all of my limited knowledge of the Dutch aquascaping style comes from these resources. If anyone knows of some other good links (ones that aren’t obvious rip-offs of those sources already mentioned), please let me know.

With that said, here are some of the key points I’ve gathered about the Dutch aquascaping style. This certainly is not an exhaustive list, but these are the points I’ve thought about the most in planning this tank.


1. Tank Size - Typical Dutch tanks seem to be relatively large. I don’t know if there’s an actual rule on tank size, but most of the legit Dutch tanks I have seen on the internet have been at least four feet long. 

2. Cabinet - The tank is usually enclosed in a cabinet, with only the front open for viewing. All external equipment – CO2, lighting, filter, etc. – needs to be hidden, usually inside of the cabinet. 

3. Internal Equipment - Items inside the tank, such as filter inflows and outflows or heaters, should be hidden from view. 

4. Walls - The back and side walls inside of the aquarium are covered with a dark background, often thin foam, and to these are pinned mosses, ferns or other plants. 

5. Substrate - Substrate is typically light colored sand or gravel, and is kept very low on the front glass, sloping up toward the back of the tank.

6. Plant Spacing - There should be a maximum of one plant species per four inches of tank width. Plants of a given species should be planted together in a group, and each species group should appear in only one location within the tank. The plant groups should be spaced at least a finger’s width apart. 

7. Contrast - One of the primary objectives in planning a Dutch style layout is to achieve maximal contrast between plant groupings. Adjacent plant groups should have clear differences in color, leaf size/shape, and height. 

8. Focal Points - The use of focal points is key. Focal points are positioned using the simple approach of dividing the tank into thirds both horizontally and vertically, like a tic-tac-toe grid. Primary and secondary focal points are then positioned at opposite corners of the rectangle formed by the intersections of the grid lines. Most often the focal points are created by choosing plants with dramatic color, leaf size, leaf shape, or all of the above.

9. Depth - Almost all Dutch style aquascapes incorporate a ‘Dutch street,’ which helps convey a sense of depth. Streets are planted wide and low at the front of the tank, and become taller and narrower toward the back, ideally, rising at the viewing angle, so that the street seems to disappear into the distance. The planted street usually does not go straight back, but instead starts near the front center of the tank and extends diagonally toward a point on the back glass about a third of the way across the tank, so that the street often crosses one of the focal points. The classic Dutch street plant is Saururus cernuus (Lizard’s Tail), but these days Lobelia cardinalis ‘Small Form’ seems by far the most popular choice.

10. Framing - It is common to have tall plants in the front corners to frame the composition and prevent the eye from leaving the scape. Common plant choices for this purpose are Hydrocotyle leucocephala, Vallisneria species, Cryptocoryne crispatula var. balansae, and Sagittaria subulata. 

11. Hardscape - Hardscaping is generally minimal, and if there is hardscape, it shouldn’t be exposed. Wood or/and rocks should be covered with mosses or ferns.

12. Fish – Typically a primary species is chosen for a large school, almost always a mid-level swimmer. Top and bottom dwellers should be added as secondary species so that all swimming levels are active.​


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Looks like a fantastic project. Boy that is some sexy gear! 

Dutch styles are my favorite as well. Looking forward to see the concept come to life. Subbed!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*My Setup: Only Semi-Dutch*

This project violates a number of the Dutch conventions/rules outlined in the previous post, so it’s really only ‘semi-Dutch.’ The tank is much smaller than standard at only two feet. I’d rather be working with a four foot, but the 32 gallon is the biggest tank I’ve got for now. I also don’t have a hood or cabinet, and the stand is an open design on the bottom, which means I am completely failing in terms of hiding all external equipment. Lights, CO2, filter, heater are all exposed. I may eventually put some doors on the lower part of the stand to at least hide the filter and CO2. 

As far as the inside of the tank goes, the back wall is covered in moss, but the side walls will not be planted. Because the tank is viewable from three sides and I don’t have a cabinet, I am opting to leave the sides open for viewing for now. Concealment of the substrate at the front glass is obviously not possible with a frameless tank and no cabinet (in a true Dutch tank the substrate is ideally so low at the front of the tank that it’s not visible above the frame or cabinet). I will maintain the substrate as low as I can at the front, but this still means a couple of inches of depth for foreground plants. Another standard I am breaking is that I will not be using light colored sand or gravel, but instead Aqua Soil. The reason for this is that it’s what I already had in the tank from the previous scape, and I wasn’t up for switching out the substrate this summer. Plus we know Aqua Soil is a great planted tank substrate and may be the best out there. I’d say using the Aqua Soil gives me some extra margin for error in terms of growing plants over an inert substrate, but is probably a disadvantage in terms aesthetics and aquascaping. The Dutch tank involves lots of uprooting, replanting, and re-arranging, and Aqua Soil is not forgiving in that regard.

Where the tank will be the most ‘Dutch’ is in the arrangement of the plants, with the exception of one rule (and it’s a major one), which is the number of species. In a two foot tank, I really shouldn’t have more than about six different species according to the three per foot rule. However, I don’t think I would be able to achieve the look I am after with only six species, nor would the tank be as much fun to keep. A relatively large variety of species is part of what makes Dutch tanks so interesting. Now too many species on the other hand isn’t good either – even highly ordered groupings will look like noise if enough species are packed into a small enough space. Four feet seems to be a pretty standard length for a Dutch aquarium, and I like the look of Dutch tanks around that size, so I used a four foot tank as a benchmark and gave myself a generous 12-14 plant allotment (not including the mosses on the back wall), with the possibility of reducing the number of species as the scape progresses. Regarding all other aspects of scaping – focal points, contrast, spacing, framing, streets, and minimal hardscape – I will try to emulate the Dutch style as closely as possible.

Finally, there are the fish. Here’s where the lack of a cabinet or hood presents another obstacle. A school of ember tetras and a handful of cardinals provide good mid-level activity. The bottom has the bristlenose pleco, panda corydoras and otos, along with a bunch of inverts – shrimp, snails, and a dwarf crayfish. But what fish are true top-level swimmers, will fit in a two foot tank, and won’t jump out of the open top? I haven’t been able to come up with any. I have been tempted to add some marbled hatchets or some smaller species of pencilfish and see how it goes, but I doubt it would end well. So as of now, the upper stratum remains vacant.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Plant Selection*

In selecting plants for this tank I had a few parameters in mind beyond those related to creating contrast and appropriate focal points. To help ensure the scape had a Dutch 'feel' I made sure to include some Dutch style classics, like the Lobelia cardinalis 'Small Form,’ Bacopa caroliniana, Vallisneria ‘Italian,’ Hydrocotyle leucocephala, and Microsorum pteropus ‘Windeløv.’ I’ve also attempted to select plants appropriate for the tank size, keeping in mind that the plants need to be able to grow in and still have about a finger’s width between them. With only a 24” x 18” footprint, some of the larger staples such as Hygrophila difformis and Hygrophila corymbosa were automatically eliminated from contention. 

Beyond these concerns, I’ve tried to choose plants that match my skills. I am a novice grower and scaper. Creating and maintaining a decent looking Dutch style scape in a smallish tank will be a challenge for me, even without a bunch of highly demanding species. I am looking for an enjoyable learning experience and entry into the Dutch style, not a rapid crash and burn. So, the majority of the plants I’ve chosen are those known for being very forgiving. I’d say the most ‘difficult’ plants I have in the current scape are the Erio ‘Polaris,’ the Limnophila aromatica, and the Ludwigia ‘Red’ – and I think most experienced growers would say these are pretty easy and certainly not challenging. But that’s not to say they have been, or will be, easy for me. 

Actually, I’ve had most of the species in the tank on hand for a couple of months in preparation for this setup, and I can say that I have yet to bring them anywhere near top form. But the plan is to work on growing these easier species really well - practice pruning and scaping, tinker with optimizing CO2 and dosing ferts, get better at watching the plants for feedback and bring them into prime shape. When/if I come close to reaching their potential, then I’ll gradually integrate plants which are more challenging. At least that’s the plan


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

Very nice tank! Love what you're doing. 

Semi-dutch is as much as most of us can attempt. 100% NBAT compliance is only necessary if you're competing. And besides, it would drive me nuts to be so restricted. 

I was worried about doing a dutch tank with Aquasoil. The cloudiness from uprooting is very short-lived. It is a non-issue IMO. Also, I only uproot and move things around just before a water change, so that helps too.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Very nice tank! Love what you're doing.
> 
> Semi-dutch is as much as most of us can attempt. 100% NBAT compliance is only necessary if you're competing. And besides, it would drive me nuts to be so restricted.
> 
> I was worried about doing a dutch tank with Aquasoil. The cloudiness from uprooting is very short-lived. It is a non-issue IMO. Also, I only uproot and move things around just before a water change, so that helps too.


Thank you for chiming in! Your journal/tank has been extremely educational and a huge source of inspiration. I agree about the rules in terms of there being no reason outside of competition for 100% compliance. I guess there's a core set of the rules that I think are the essence of the style, and I'm just trying to cover enough so that the tank is clearly in the Dutch vein of aquascaping.

Good to hear that the Aqua Soil hasn't been an issue. There's some GSA and BBA on some of the lower level plants that I'd wanted to blame on substrate disturbance and muck, but guess I can't use that excuse!


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Love the moss wall, does it collect a lot of crap? 
I have a love/hate relationship with moss. It looks really cosy but it gets dirty as F and you never get rid of it once you introduce it :>


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Fissure said:


> Love the moss wall, does it collect a lot of crap?
> I have a love/hate relationship with moss. It looks really cosy but it gets dirty as F and you never get rid of it once you introduce it :>


Thanks! Nope, not yet, well not visibly at least. Probably if I were to shake it, there's a lot more trapped in there than I realize. It's actually still pretty short right now though. It's kind of tough to tell that looking straight on, but from the side angle you can see it's still only about 1/2" average length, tops. 















I'm looking forward to watching it fill out, and I sure hope it doesn't start accumulating too much detritus as that happens. I was careful to select a moss that isn't known for readily attaching itself to stuff in hopes of reducing the nuisance factor. The mini Christmas seems to fit that description. 

However, little bits of moss do escape the wall occasionally and end up accumulating around the bases of the plant groupings. I just vacuum up these little piles during water changes, and I can't say it's added significantly to my maintenance routine yet. But it could become more of an issue as the volume increases. Part of the problem is the way I attached the moss. You can see I just used fishing line to wrap around.








The gaps between the crisscrossing line are too large though, so that in certain places the moss can either escape the wall, or else hangs too loosely so that the growth pattern isn't nice and tight. So at some point in the next few weeks I plan to pull the wall and trim the whole thing down really short, and then cover the entire surface with a fine plastic mesh. This should do a better job of corralling the moss and encourage more even growth. I think the long-term result will be much nicer, even though it's going to suck hacking 'er back to square zero.


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

I was looking at stainless steel meshes myself not sure what mesh size would be best. And I probably will never be able to get my background of from the glass. Went a bit crazy with the silicone :/

Anyways it looks really nice in your tank and I would say by far the best looking way to do a background. Just looks so lush and natural


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

LRJ said:


> Good to hear that the Aqua Soil hasn't been an issue. There's some GSA and BBA on some of the lower level plants that I'd wanted to blame on substrate disturbance and muck, but guess I can't use that excuse!


I've been able to one-up both of these algae types with increased water changes, improved flow, cleaning, and high+steady CO2. 

Cleaning = trimming, pruning, removing half-dead leaves before they die and melt, scooping out floating leaves, scrubbing glass, cleaning filter, etc. 

Flow = circulation, but also giving plants elbow room to access CO2 and nutrients. Alternating short and tall plants. Alternating plants of different leaf types that allows circulation. Preventing overgrowth of fast-growing plants to the dainty feeders don't get hungry. 

The algae wolf is always at the door, but husbandry and CO2 will make it disappear. It demands an unusual amount of discipline and consistency with husbandry. I find it to be a surprising amount of work. When you're busy with work and family, this demand can be a pain in the a**. But it's certainly effective in getting rid of algae. 

Unless you go with low-light, low-bioload, low-tech, nature tanks (so Dutch style tanks do not qualify), elbow grease and micro-management is a must. 

I've had excess substrate disturbance cause algae too, but those have been massive re-scaping with not enough water changes immediately post rescape. If I were to do a big re-scape, I'd do massive water changes daily for 2 or 3 days. Even with smaller uprooting, I like to do a water change within a half hour or so.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ here's a pretty good Dutch journal I found over at APC - Introducing my tank - Aquascaping - Aquatic Plant Central


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Fissure said:


> I was looking at stainless steel meshes myself not sure what mesh size would be best. And I probably will never be able to get my background of from the glass. Went a bit crazy with the silicone :/
> 
> Anyways it looks really nice in your tank and I would say by far the best looking way to do a background. Just looks so lush and natural


I think the background on your tank looks incredible. Actually, foam was my first choice, because I think this is what many of the true Dutch tanks use, the Juwel backgrounds being the most popular. And the mosses and epiphytes are attached and allowed to grow onto the foam. I looked into Poret foam, 3M solid core foam, and cork board - any of them would have done a nice job I think. I ultimately went with the SS mesh, only because I didn't think it was worth breaking the tank down to silicone something onto the back. And I also like the idea of the wall being removable for maintenance. 

I went with a single 24" x 18" sheet of 304 4 mesh with 0.047" wire diameter. It's right on the verge of being too flexible imo, and if the background were any larger I think you'd have to go with multiple panels or a larger wire diameter. Spray painting the mesh with matte black spray paint eliminated any glints of metal catching the eye from underneath the moss.










burr740 said:


> LRJ here's a pretty good Dutch journal I found over at APC - Introducing my tank - Aquascaping - Aquatic Plant Central


Nice find, burr! Thanks!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Quick update. 

Did some trimming and made a few changes to the tank tonight. Here is a beforehand shot.









Didn't like what was going on in the middle third - too much noise. Java fern isn't giving the contrast needed, pulled it. The Bacopa compact, even though I searched high and low for this plant, not making the final cut, pulled it. Too much Fissidens in too many different spots, pulled the lhs wood and the larger middle stone. Here's afterward.









I'm going to extend the Bacopa australis down into the foreground where the compact was - skewers are marking out the boundary for the 'street.' Then I'm thinking maybe Pearl Weed bush off to the right where the Java fern was, Rotala rotundifolia off to the left to replace the fissidens wood. Might remove the Hydrocotyle sp. Japan as well. I like the contrast the Japan has with the Octopus plant, but it and the Bacopa australis are redundant.

Aside from all of that, I've been having growth issues with some of the plants. If you're paying close attention, you may have noticed the Erios Polaris are smaller than they were in the initial photo I posted a few weeks ago. Outer leaves got covered in BBA and fuzz algae, so I pulled them and hacked off all the infested stuff. Crossing my fingers that they can come back.









Also experiencing curling/stunting of Ludwigia sp. Red and Bacopa australis, and loss of color in the Limnophila aromatica. Wasn't getting much color out of the L. aromatica to begin with, but you can see some of the leaves are almost white. Not sure at this point if this is CO2, micro tox (or deficiency) or something else, but something is definitely up if even the stalwart Bacopa australis is complaining.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Based on what happens to red plants in my tanks: A darker than normal color generally indicates too much of something, either Fe or micros. It's one of the very first signs. A deficiency of either one tends to show faded coloration. Stunted/twisting can happen in either case.

L aromatica can lose color either way. When short on Fe the tops will turn almost white, starting in the center. When there's too much, for me it never gets really unhappy, growth wise. It just reverts back to green.

And of course all the above assumes good CO2.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Struggles continue...

Did 70% water changes on back-to-back days and then skipped micros all of last week (dosed macros as usual). Finally dosed 0.032 ppm fe micros yesterday.

Ludwigia Red looking maybe a little healthier than last update, but still a dumpster fire overall. 







Limnophila aromatica actually growing pretty quickly, but color seems even worse than before. This was supposed to be the main focal plant. If I can't get some red out of it, will have to go with something else. 
_Limnophila aromatica sp. 'White'_







Polaris starting to gather algae again. Don't know if they're gonna make it.








Going out of town next week, so the tank will not get regular fert dosing. Probably change the water the day before I leave and dose macros. Interested to see what sort of shape things will be in after a week of basically zero ferts.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*After one week of neglect*

Got back home on Sunday. The tank went eight days without ferts or top-offs. Lighting and rate of CO2 injection were left at normal levels during this time.

Other than the plants being overgrown and water level having dropped slightly below the filter outputs, things seem to have gone smoothly. Overall, no major complaints about the lack of ferts from what I can tell.

Ludwigia red grew quite a bit and looks a little healthier than when I left.








The Limnophila aromatica gained some color.








Eriocaulon polaris looking in bad shape, but it was already in trouble when I left. May have become shaded by the Ludwigia red to make matters worse.








Lobelia cardinalis, which had been showing some GSA on the lower leaves, is almost completely cleared up.








Before leaving I swapped some Rotala rotundifolia in place of the Hydrocotyle Japan. A beginner plant, but as you can see it's looking rough, major stunting. Hoping this is just part of it acclimating to a new tank.








The Isoetes lacustris in the back left corner had been fading for a while and has now shriveled to four small clumps. Time to cut losses and try something else in that spot.








This is what the tank looked like when I got home - jungle dutch.








Did a huge trim yesterday and back-to-back water changes. Still need to do some more trimming this week. The Isoetes lacustris is gone and the Rotala rotundifolia has been moved to the back left corner. Still need to find a midground plant to go in front of the Limnophila aromatica. This was originally going to be the Windelov fern, but not enough contrast. I have tried pearl weed in that spot twice now over the last month, only to have it completely melt within 24 hrs. Not sure about a third time.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*32 Gallon Frameless Semi-Dutch*



LRJ said:


> Before leaving I swapped some Rotala rotundifolia in place of the Hydrocotyle Japan. A beginner plant, but as you can see it's looking rough, major stunting. Hoping this is just part of it acclimating to a new tank.


I'm experiencing the same thing with some R. rotundifolia 'Blood Red' (I don't even know if this variant is a thing to be honest). It's looking really rough right now albeit with some new growth. Although mine was grown emersed, was yours? For some reason it is doing even worse in my emersed setup than my show tank.  Puzzling to say the least. Hopefully it bounces back for the both of us, it's one of the hardiest/easiest stems as well. I would think in both our cases it must just be acclimating to the new environment.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Something orange might look good in the empty spot. I really like that Fissidens, it looks sweet


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> I'm experiencing the same thing with some R. rotundifolia 'Blood Red' (I don't even know if this variant is a thing to be honest). It's looking really rough right now albeit with some new growth. Although mine was grown emersed, was yours? For some reason it is doing even worse in my emersed setup than my show tank. [emoji848] Puzzling to say the least. Hopefully it bounces back for the both of us, it's one of the hardiest/easiest stems as well. I would think in both our cases it must just be acclimating to the new environment.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I believe the stems I received were grown emersed. Nice specimens too, big pink-orange leaves. The new growth is much smaller and greenish yellow, with high rate of stunting. This is not the first time I've tried Rotala rotundifolia. I had the green variant in the initial planting of my previous setup about year ago. It did OK for a few weeks and then started with the same stunting issues. I know for sure my CO2 is much better now though, so I have hope that this rotala will acclimate and come around. Haven't seen the 'blood red' variant, but if yours was grown emersed, then I'd bet that's the issue in your case.



burr740 said:


> Something orange might look good in the empty spot. I really like that Fissidens, it looks sweet


Thanks. I had been considering trying something with big green leaves like hygro corymbosa 'kompakt' or Echinodorus quadricostatus, but I like the suggestion of something orange. Thinking of a particular species? Proserpinaca palustris, Rotala wallichii, and Ludwigia arcuata are the ones that come to mind.


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## Albtraum (Dec 27, 2009)

What is NBAT and what is an official Dutch tank? I didn't know there were any sorts of rules what the heck

tank looks great. Looks like backing off ferts did only good things


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> Thanks. I had been considering trying something with big green leaves like hygro corymbosa 'kompakt' or Echinodorus quadricostatus, but I like the suggestion of something orange. Thinking of a particular species? Proserpinaca palustris, Rotala wallichii, and Ludwigia arcuata are the ones that come to mind.


Those and possibly Myriophyllum tuberculatum or L senegalensis. Im sure there are more, Im currently looking for a dramatic orange species for my tank as well.

Compact hygro might still be a good look, in between the orange and the polaris.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Albtraum said:


> What is NBAT and what is an official Dutch tank? I didn't know there were any sorts of rules what the heck
> 
> tank looks great. Looks like backing off ferts did only good things


Check out this link: Crash course Dutch style Aquascaping | UK Aquatic Plant Society. He gives a far better explanation than I can. The rules only really matter for formal competition. For this tank, I'm just focusing on some of the aspects that I feel most exemplify the Dutch style.

Low ferts for a week certainly didn't seem to hurt. I'm back to regular macros now, but I'm going to hold off on traces for a bit until I see a negative response.


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

Hello, I'm starting a planted tank and I bought a Radion XR15 Pro Gen 3 but I don't have any experience with leds. Can you recommended me a configuration, % of intensity, etc? It's for a 27 gallon (20''x18''x20'') tank. 

thank you


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

jlugo89 said:


> Hello, I'm starting a planted tank and I bought a Radion XR15 Pro Gen 3 but I don't have any experience with leds. Can you recommended me a configuration, % of intensity, etc? It's for a 27 gallon (20''x18''x20'') tank.
> 
> thank you


Hi,

I don't have any experience with that fixture, so not sure how much help I can be. My Radions were the XR15 freshwater model. I ran two of them on this tank, which is 24x18x18 inches. Actually just sold them though so that I could see what T5 has to offer.

Had the Radions on this tank for over a year though, so I can try to share some of that experience. Started out with them cranked up too high and way more light than I needed, and eventually turned them down to around 40% intensity. If I recall correctly, this was giving me around 80 PAR average at the substrate. There are a couple posts in the journal for my previous setup which give specifics on the configuration, e.g., color intensities: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/875121-32-gal-mr-aqua-3.html#post8904250. 

Didn't do anything fancy for the photo period, basically just played around with the colors until I found a mix that was pleasing, then set this mix constant throughout the period. Added steep ramp up and ramp down periods to bracket a level 40% intensity photo period. I did setup a pretty sweet evening phase after the photo period though, featuring a lot of warm colors, transitioning into a cooler moonlight phase after midnight. This made for many enjoyable evening and night viewing hours of the tank.

Honestly, the best way to figure out a configuration is probably just to play around with the settings and find what you like. EcoSmart Live has a few freshwater templates. If you're looking for a starting point, you could use one of those and tweak from there. It's a sweet sweet light, and the process of customizing it to your liking is part of the fun of owning it. That said, if you post this question in the lighting forum you might be able to get some more detailed answers regarding your specific model of Radion. Good luck!


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## jlugo89 (Aug 19, 2016)

LRJ said:


> Hi,
> 
> I don't have any experience with that fixture, so not sure how much help I can be. My Radions were the XR15 freshwater model. I ran two of them on this tank, which is 24x18x18 inches. Actually just sold them though so that I could see what T5 has to offer.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your tips! I already creat a thread in the lighting forum! :wink2:


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Eriocaulon sp. Polaris update*

Two of the three Eriocaulon sp. Polaris have slowly but surely rebounded after I uprooted and hacked them about three months ago. The third plant was fading, so I made a last ditch decision to pull and split it with a razor blade, placing the halves in a five gallon rehab tank to see if I can bring them back. The two plants that successfully recovered have both developed at least two (...the larger plant may have three or four) cores. Trying to decide whether it's time to separate them, or whether they should be left to grow for a while longer. Any thoughts/advice?


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Those can be spilt just fine. I just split the last survivor of my E. Cinereum and some of the plants had like less than a dozen leaves LOL. I am to blame for not taking good care of them but I did manage to grow 8 little plants from 2 tiny growths. I waited until the 2 plants showed individual tiny plants then I split them. Most of them have roots now and they are on their way.

I'll grab a picture tomorrow and you can see how tiny they are. 

What I would do is get the plant out of the water then use your a tweezer to very very slowly split the plant and trying to keep as much roots as you can have for each plant. Don't pull them by the leaves. Pull the individual plants by the crown and again do this very very slowly. It should split with no issues. 

The common newbie thing to do is to pull too fast and losing all the roots from one good plant.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

What he said^

Weird I started out with one and it never divided by itself, just kept getting bigger and bigger. Super nice plant. Finally it was about the size of a tennis ball, I split into four with a razor.

It took a while but three of them survived and took off. Now they all divide by themselves like in your pic. Sorta wish they didnt because so far none have been as pretty as the original, easy to split though. just be gentle and make sure to get some roots with each one.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Those can be spilt just fine. I just split the last survivor of my E. Cinereum and some of the plants had like less than a dozen leaves LOL. I am to blame for not taking good care of them but I did manage to grow 8 little plants from 2 tiny growths. I waited until the 2 plants showed individual tiny plants then I split them. Most of them have roots now and they are on their way.
> 
> I'll grab a picture tomorrow and you can see how tiny they are.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the advice! The third erio, the one I split and moved, probably had a dozen or so leaves. Was a desperation move, and I didn't have high hopes for it. One of the halves is showing development of a new core though, so maybe it will pay off. I'll definitely go ahead and split the big ones too now. Just wanted to make sure it wasn't too early.



burr740 said:


> What he said^
> 
> Weird I started out with one and it never divided by itself, just kept getting bigger and bigger. Super nice plant. Finally it was about the size of a tennis ball, I split into four with a razor.
> 
> It took a while but three of them survived and took off. Now they all divide by themselves like in your pic. Sorta wish they didnt because so far none have been as pretty as the original, easy to split though. just be gentle and make sure to get some roots with each one.


I kind of figured it was the stress of hacking them up that caused them to split so early. They are not close to tennis ball size (I wish)! The Fissidens stone is tennis ball size for reference. The erios are more like golf ball size. Do you split using a razor, or do you simply pull them apart?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

When they are already dividing by themselves (like in your pic) I gently pull the plant apart, being careful to get roots on each piece. Similar to splitting a blyxa. But for a single plant need to use use a razor.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Limnophila aromatica coloration*

This is a strange plant to figure out when it comes to coloration. For the longest time I couldn't get any color out of it at all. For example, here's a picture from about three months ago where it was almost white.









Now things are finally heading in the right direction, beginning to get some color. To be honest, I'm not sure why the improvement. I've increased iron dosing, but also switched from LED to T5 lighting. Could be either of these factors, both, or even some unknown. Here's a shot from tonight.









But I still need more intense color out of it than this for it to be the focal point I want in this Dutch scape. Crazy part is, see below what it looks like in my Spec V, same approximate fert routine and CO2, but with inert gravel substrate instead of Aqua Soil. It turns this wild mix of bright orange and blood red that's tough for me to capture fully in pictures. THIS is what I need in the Dutch scape. 
























Just not sure why there's such a big difference. PAR maybe? I know many people attribute this plant's coloration almost solely to intense light. In the 5 gallon it gets blasted with two 2700k 23-Watt CFLs. Light is cranked pretty high in the 32 gallon too though. Guess maybe it's time to break out the meter.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm having the same issue with Aromatica, I just can't get any color and it grows slow.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> I'm having the same issue with Aromatica, I just can't get any color and it grows slow.


I remember you were having this problem too. Grows at a moderate pace in both my tanks, but in the 32-gallon definitely hasn't achieved the color it's capable of, which I think is a pretty common issue for people actually. For a while I was concerned maybe it was something in my tap, but clearly that's not the case. The fact that I'm getting such strong coloration in the five-gallon at least is giving me hope that I can figure out how to make it happen in the bigger tank.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I almost feel like it's the fluorescent lighting that does the trick. Mines directly under an led fixture getting more than 100 par to the tops and it still struggles to gain color, while plants next to it turn dark red. Yours look really awesome and bushy in that smaller tank.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Wow that is insane color in the 5 gal! The light looks really warm, might have something to do with it.

They look very nice in that last pic of the Dutch. Whatever you're doing seems like you are on the right path.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> I almost feel like it's the fluorescent lighting that does the trick. Mines directly under an led fixture getting more than 100 par to the tops and it still struggles to gain color, while plants next to it turn dark red. Yours look really awesome and bushy in that smaller tank.


You might be right. If you have an extra tank to experiment in it would be interesting to see if you get similar results under florescent.



burr740 said:


> Wow that is insane color in the 5 gal! The light looks really warm, might have something to do with it.
> 
> They look very nice in that last pic of the Dutch. Whatever you're doing seems like you are on the right path.


Thank you, does seem like the tank is on the right path of late. Now let me see if I can keep her there  

Light on the 5-gallon is _very_ warm: two 2700k bulbs. I do suspect this has something to do with it, both in the actual color of the growth, and in color rendering.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Tank Update*

It's been a long time since I've done an update on the overall status of the tank, so here it goes.

*Equipment Changes*
-Sold the Radions and bought an ATI dimmable fixture. This is my first experience with T5 lighting, and I'm very happy with it. Don't think I'd switch back to LED for doing a Dutch setup.
-Added a second canister, an Eheim 2273, to go alongside the 2073.
-Added a second Grigg reactor to go along with the new filter. Wanted to avoid the possibility of having discrepancies in CO2 across the tank, that might result from having two outflow points and only one carrying CO2 rich water. I'm sure this is overkill for this size tank, but it was low cost and gives me peace of mind.
*
Plants*
-Following the advice of @PortalMasteryRy and @burr740, I split the two remaining Erio Polaris. Once the erios were out of the tank, I realized there were more separate cores growing than I originally thought. This made it awkward to pull them apart effectively, and I finally resorted to a razor blade. Ended up with 10 split plants, 5 of which were replanted in this tank, 5 of which were planted in a 5-gallon grow out tank. It was difficult keeping the split plants from floating out of the substrate, so eventually I staked them down with paper clips bent into upside down 'U's.
-Rotala rotundifolia is doing much better these days, but still some stunting here and there. Need to achieve consistently nice growth, then fatten up the group.
-Added a Hygrophila corymbosa 'Compact,' courtesy of Burr. Scape was in need of a green, large leaf plant. I'm liking this one a lot. 
-Also added Blyxa Japonica.
-Bacopa australis street was in prime form about a month ago, but not so hot now, especially toward the back of the tank. Got super busy and missed trimming it when I should have. By the time I got to it the lower portions had starting dying off. It will likely have to be uprooted and re-planted.

*Overall Thoughts*
-Left side of the tank needs work in general: filling out the groups, shaping, maybe switching out some plants if it's still lacking after that.
-May be getting too crowded for a Dutch. 
-Tough to get all the groups looking good and hitting the sweet spot at the same time.



A couple shots from tonight. Tank was badly in need of trim and maintenance, which it got afterward. Wanted to do pics before the water got mucked up.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That's looking GREAT man, so clean...

Future plans sound spot on. I also struggle with having too many species, that's always kept mine from ever hitting a truly Dutch stride. 

The street is really good, I can imagine it being at it's full potential. Continuing the Blyxa on to the right might be a good look, couple more plants to fill in that space.

I like the new thing in front right, nice contrast. 

How's the moss wall working, any likes or dislikes about it? Thinking about one for the new tank. 

Sweet light! What kind of bulbs? 

When you split the CO2, did you get a 2nd needle valve or just use a T fitting? Been wondering how/if to do mine. Thinking a T might be fine with reactors, as compared to say diffusers where the resistance could be different. Not sure though


Also you need a bigger grow out tank! :red_mouth So nice being able to plug-n-play different species, grow things out, propagate, etc


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Very nice tank! What size is it? Also what is that long tall plant with the red coloration on the right?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> That's looking GREAT man, so clean...
> 
> Future plans sound spot on. I also struggle with having too many species, that's always kept mine from ever hitting a truly Dutch stride.
> 
> ...


Burr - Thanks! I agree about the Blyxa. Might be tough to tell there in the pic, but there are four Blyxa plants trailing back toward the Rotala in the left corner. Want to let them fill out a bit more and maybe tier them, then go from there.

In the front right, that's Leopard Val from @Bartohog that I swapped in for the Italian Val, because there was too much green over there before. Incredible plant, with lots of red and metallic sheen. I am very satisfied with it being one of the front corner plants. Jury is still out on the Hydrocotyle leucocephala in the front left corner. Very common in true Dutch tanks, but without mossed side walls it's tough to get it to trail up the front corner. Gets pushed by the current and wants to sprawl; just not room for that in this size tank.

The moss wall is doing really well. Has become very full and is a great dark backdrop. What is also nice is that once the moss is established, it can be planted on. You can see in the photo the Hydrocotyle Japan growing across the top, providing a top border to frame the layout. My only regret is that I never went back and covered the wall with plastic netting as I had planned; it just started filling in too nicely to mess with. But it's very thick now, and at some point in the near future I will probably be forced to remove it and start from square one again. This time, I will lay the moss out the same way I did initially, but I'll cover the moss by tying fine plastic netting to the face of the SS mesh. I think this will make 2.0 even nicer, and maybe possible to maintain by thinning in the long run, as opposed to having to start over. It has caused little if any increase to short term maintenance/weekly routine. Using a moss that's not 'sticky,' like the mini Christmas, I think was key.

It's a six-bulb fixture. Back to front I've got: Giesemann Aquaflora, Giesemann Midday, Wave Point Ultra Growth wave, Wave Point Ultra Growth wave, ATI Aquablue Special, Giesemann Aquaflora.

For the second reactor, I went with another needle valve. I have four needle valves on this regulator: two for the Dutch; and two for the five-gallon grow out tanks. I thought about the T, but like you, I wasn't sure how well this would work. The filters have different flow rates, which I am sure would be the case even if they were the exact same type of filter. On top of that, one of the filters has an inline heater hooked up. Not sure what, if any, effect these factors have on diffusion. I have eye balled the needle valves to the same approximate rate of injection for both reactors.

Would be sweet to have a bigger growout! Unfortunately, time and space basically only allow the current setup. At least I have _two_ 5-gallons though! In the long term, my hope is that the 32-gallon becomes the growout. 




PortalMasteryRy said:


> Very nice tank! What size is it? Also what is that long tall plant with the red coloration on the right?


PortalMasteryRy - Thank you! This is a 32-gallon (roughly) 24x18x18 in. Mr. Aqua. That red plant in the front right is Vallisneria spiralis 'Leopard' (see response to Burr above). Excellent plant that I picked up from Bartohog.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Top of the moss wall is going nuts! Probably hack this way back tonight.









Mowed it down.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

Aw man, I thought it looked great before the trim! Blocking too much light?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

vanish said:


> Aw man, I thought it looked great before the trim! Blocking too much light?


Just a management strategy, like how we'd mow a Glosso carpet. If you let it continue to pile up, eventually the bottom layers get choked out. Then you've got rotting plants in the tank and everything has to be gutted anyway. This is the first time I've taken it down to the bone, but I am betting within a few weeks it will be back, and fuller than before.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Layout changes:*

I have made a couple of changes to the left hand side of the layout. I removed the Rotala rotundifolia, which wasn't growing well enough to provide good contrast in the back left corner. Strong contrast in that spot, for Rotala, will really require a full, pinkish orange umbrella, as opposed to the handful of halfway decent stems that I am currently able to muster. I will continue to work with the Rotala in my 5-gallon tank and see if I can figure out what it likes.

In place of the Rotala, I initially tried a stand of Eleocharis montevidensis, but ended up not being fond of it positioned so near the Blyxa japonica, which is also grassy, or the way it blended in with the color of the moss wall. At the moment I'm trying out the Hydrocotyle leucocephala in that spot, which was previously in the front left corner, but which I determined was too large and sprawling to be a front corner plant in this size tank (at least not in combination with the leopard val, also large and sprawling, at the other front corner). 

I'm liking the way the Hydrocotyle leucocephala pops against the moss wall. But this leaves me searching for a new plant to occupy the vacant front left corner. Also on the left hand side, I'm mulling the idea of squeezing in another species between the Blyxa japonica and the Hydrocotyle leucocephala, or maybe moving the Blyxa back and adding another foreground plant. However, it's not clear that adding another species is the way to go, as I'm already well over the maximum number allotted for a 2-ft tank.

Overall, the plants are doing pretty well health wise. Still working on reviving the Bacopa australis street after it choked itself out. Some palish new leaves coming in on the Hygrophila corymbosa compact, which could be the result of topping it a few days ago. The Ludwigia 'Red,' which had been doing nicely for a while, is not happy at the moment (added extra non-iron traces a few weeks back, maybe something to do with it), but this will pass. Once the Ludwigia is going strong again, that group needs to be filled out and tightened.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That's looking very nice! And dammit man you're going to cause me to do a moss wall yet! :red_mouth

Whenever I move or prune Compact Hygro it goes through a couple week phase where new growth comes in wild colors - anything from hot pink to red or brown to yellow. I used to get excited because it usually looks pretty cool, but it soon reverts back to all green.

Also common after an uprooting is for a few older leaves to develop faux K deficiency then melt off and die. Doesnt mean anything in my experience.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> That's looking very nice! And dammit man you're going to cause me to do a moss wall yet! :red_mouth
> 
> Whenever I move or prune Compact Hygro it goes through a couple week phase where new growth comes in wild colors - anything from hot pink to red or brown to yellow. I used to get excited because it usually looks pretty cool, but it soon reverts back to all green.
> 
> Also common after an uprooting is for a few older leaves to develop faux K deficiency then melt off and die. Doesnt mean anything in my experience.


Thanks, man! That's good information about the hygro.

For the moss wall, there's an upfront construction cost, but once it's in place the upkeep is minimal, at least it has been so far for me. Up to this point it has barely even factored into weekly maintenance routine. I'll gently fan a hand over it during water change to dislodge any dust that's been trapped from the Aqua Soil, trim the Hydrocotyle tripartitia up top, and that's about it. Sure would make a nice backdrop for that 120! :thumbsup:


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Zero to jungle in four weeks*

Nov 6









Dec 4


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

I need to move down to Georgia, because there's something special in the water there.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

stunning tank! love the small, yet pure dutch theme of it!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Nlewis said:


> I need to move down to Georgia, because there's something special in the water there.


Some plants do seem to love the South Georgia water, but others not so much. I've had basically no luck with Rotalas, not even easy ones like rotundifolia. This area does not issue detailed water reports - basically just whether it's safe enough to drink - so I don't really know what I'm working with here. Actually been thinking about hitting up @PortalMasteryRy to get the tap tested.



BettaBettas said:


> stunning tank! love the small, yet pure dutch theme of it!


Thank you! It's a challenge trying to achieve the Dutch aesthetic in a small tank. Plant selection is very limited. I've got 12 species right now not including those on the back wall, and technically that's still too many. Some of the Dutch classic plants like Wisteria and giant hygro simply can't be squeezed into a tank of this size. I'm hoping that in the not too distant future I can get something in the 5-6 foot range. Looking online at the tanks of some of the Dutch masters, it seems that most of their aquariums have a length:height ratio greater than three. I'm thinking something like an 85 long (60" x 18" x 18") or a 125 long (72" x 18" x 22") would be really nice while still being manageable.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

@LRJ Just send me a cutting of your val and I'll be happy to test your water =)


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*New Layout in Progress*

Haven't been able to update this journal in several months, but there have been some major changes. 

I had to go out of town on several consecutive trips around the holidays. By the time I was able to properly maintenance the tank again, the situation was so overgrown that I decided to just go ahead and tear it all up, sell a bunch of plants and hit the reset button on the entire layout. 

I think the picture below is the last I have of the old layout. At peak overgrowth, before I finally hacked and uprooted everything, the inside of the tank was basically an impenetrable jungle of plants, and on the outside of the tank hydrocotyle was growing down nearly to the floor. The only plant I lost in the ordeal was mini myrio, which got choked out underneath the moss wall in the back corner. Surprisingly, the Erio Polaris were thriving in the heart of all that plant tangle, even under intense shade.

For the new layout, I'll be reducing the number of plant species to eight, not including mosses and back wall plantings, down from 11 or 12 in the previous setup. The pictures below are from several weeks ago. The tank is fully planted at this point and growing in. Will update again in a few weeks after things have had a chance to fill out a bit.

*Out with the old*








*
In with the new...*

















Bump:


BettaBettas said:


> stunning tank! love the small, yet pure dutch theme of it!


Thanks @BettaBettas! I'd go bigger if I had my way, but I'm making the most of what I've got at the moment :grin2: The Dutch style is fun either way though! Endless possibilities, even in a 2 ft tank.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Did you dirt that? or is it just the substrate being regularly cloudy?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

BettaBettas said:


> Did you dirt that? or is it just the substrate being regularly cloudy?


That's Aqua Soil Amazonia, about three years old at this point. That clouding in the picture is from uprooting all the plants. This is one of the minor drawbacks of using Aqua Soil, especially when one uproots and replants frequently as is the case in a Dutch tank. However, it clears up very quickly with a big water change, so not really a big issue.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Planned on waiting for things to fill in before posting more pics of the new layout, but figured I'd go ahead and put a few up here to document the progression. The red stem myrio is just a place holder. I'm planning to go with something bright green in that spot, either mini myrio or maybe some sort of ambulia. There will eventually be more back wall plantings too, looking for some mini bolbitis or dwarf java fern.


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Looks good! glad to see this journal up an running again


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## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

update?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

BettaBettas said:


> update?


Not much different from a week ago. I've got some baby leaf bolbitis and other miniature ferns coming in, also some mini myrio for the background spot currently occupied by the three myrio red stems. I have some ideas in mind for tweaking the layout going forward, but will let this grow in a bit first. Long term wise, I'd like to add some livestock. I have my eye on more ember tetras, black neons, emerald eye rasboras, corydoras hastatus, and pygmy hatchets. I'm also thinking about building an enclosure to cover the sides of the tank and contain the light fixture. But we're closing on the purchase of a new house at the end of the month, so no livestock additions or other major changes until after the tank is re-setup in the new place.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Back wall plantings*

Over the next month or so I'll be auditioning some miniature ferns and mosses to see which ones will have a role to play when the moss wall goes back up. 

Here's what I'm looking at so far. More may be added to the list.

*India Fern and Riccia* The India fern is about an inch wide and is supposed to reach about 3 inches max. Good looking fern with nice texture. 

The riccia is turning into kind of a PITA already, the way it breaks off into little pieces and spreads... BUT it is a very nice bright green that looks good up along the top edge of the layout; many Dutch tanks use it this way.









*Mini Christmas Moss* I used this moss for the previous moss wall. Lush looking once it really gets going, not sticky or invasive, easy to maintain. I will almost certainly be using this again as the main back wall substrate. Curious to see whether it's able to fill-in through such a fine mesh though, and that goes for all the mosses really. When it comes time to reconstruct the wall I may use a material with slightly larger openings, depending on the results of this trial.









*Mini Pellia* Waiting to see how it looks when grown out more, but I know from pictures it's a stunner. Even if not used on the back wall, I may have to find a place for it in the layout.









*Baby Leaf Bolbitis* Like a tiny version of Bolbitis heudelotii. Sounds great in theory, but looks really really rough at the moment. Searching around the internet I see people saying that it doesn't like being submersed, so we'll see how this goes.









*Mini Trident* Similar to regular Trident Java Fern but half the size. High hopes for this one.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Totally agree with Riccia, it looks great, but my goodness is it a pain to have in your tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice pics. Interested to see how these all grow out, Im considering doing a partial wall or two in mine.

The Mini Trident looks sweet. Ive got a big clump of the regular that I plan to use somehow


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> Totally agree with Riccia, it looks great, but my goodness is it a pain to have in your tank.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely, although I will say that because it floats, it sort of confines itself to the surface, making it relatively easy to scoop and remove as opposed to something like Java moss, which infiltrates everywhere. However, it will be nearly impossible to keep it out of the other mosses on the wall, so I'll probably just let it blend in to a certain extent like it's already doing with the mini Christmas. Not necessarily a bad look.



burr740 said:


> Nice pics. Interested to see how these all grow out, I'm considering doing a partial wall or two in mine.
> 
> The Mini Trident looks sweet. Ive got a big clump of the regular that I plan to use somehow


Awesome. Yeah, I'm hoping this netting works out, because it's much easier to work with than fishing line and more secure. Securing the moss well, I think, is the key to making a wall that looks good for a long time and is easy to maintain. This was one of the problems with the previous wall. The fishing line started to loosen around the edges allowing the moss to escape and start free floating. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the 120.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Some new plants arrived yesterday from burr740: Limnophila 'Fuzzy,' Isoetes lacustris, and Eriocaulon Lineare. Premium specimens as always. Thank you, burr!

*Limnophila 'Fuzzy'* (left) and *Isoetes lacustris* (right) Been looking for a plant like the fuzzy limno. Striking bright green. Makes more of a statement than Myriophyllum sp. Guyana, but more reasonable size than Limnophila aquatica for this 2 ft tank. As for the Isoetes lacustris, I failed with this plant once before, but tank conditions are better now. I'll keep it around if it does well. May use it in the front corner or as a mid-ground height contrast or as a background green wall.









*Eriocaulon Lineare* One of the most uniquely colored plants in the hobby, a pastel blueish green. Not sure how I'll integrate this into the layout, but it will have a role. Maybe replace the Blyxa? (Note: please ignore the Ludwigia sp. Red and the Bacopa monnieri 'Compact,' both recovering from heavy trims.)









*FTS* The Limno is where I want it. The other two new additions I just stuck wherever I could find space for now. Need to think about how to progress from here. Ten species not counting mosses and back wall plantings, moving toward collectoritis again. Strong, the collectoritis gravity is....









*Small Hardware Update* This tank has always had good surface ripple from the positioning of the filter outlets, but I've heard a lot about the benefits of surface skimming in particular for oxygen exchange. So I finally added a surface skimming intake on one of the filters. The immediate difference I've noticed is a MASSIVE increase in pearling during the photo period and faster pH rise after the CO2 shuts off, so I've already ordered another one for the other filter. I did have to slip a small strip of SS mesh inside of the cup as an invert guard - found a bunch of shrimp and snails in the canister after only a day of use - but this has worked like a charm.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Moving - Break the tank down or not?*

I'll be moving the tank over to our new place this week. I had originally planned to drain it down all the way, leave the plants in place, put plastic wrap over the top, and carry the tank like that on a wooden panel. Now I'm second guessing that approach, and wondering if I should just break it down entirely and take this opportunity to refresh the Aqua Soil. I've moved it intact once before, and it was pretty touch-and-go - substrate shifted badly, couple close calls. Unfortunately I don't have a ton of time to get this hammered out, as we have to be out of our old place by next Monday.

Any thoughts, tips or recommendations?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Hmm maybe it's best to tear it apart and completely and remake it. Although it will be quite sad it may be a bit of a risk trying to move everything. How far is the move? If not too far it may be possible to transport it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> Hmm maybe it's best to tear it apart and completely and remake it. Although it will be quite sad it may be a bit of a risk trying to move everything. How far is the move? If not too far it may be possible to transport it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Only a 15 minute drive, so not bad at all. My main concern is potentially damaging the tank. It was very difficult to move last time, and the substrate shifted while carrying and in the car. I just hate to tear substrate up, because it's so mature and the tank so stable at this point, virtually zero trace of algae. New sub will involve all the growing pains of a new tank again, but I'm leaning in that direction. Thanks for the input!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Post-move Update*

So we spent the first several weeks of April moving things over to the new place. The tank was one of the last things we moved, and the shots below were taken on April 16th right before loading it into the truck.

















As you can see, I chose to move the tank intact. I drained the tank down to about 2" and taped a trash bag over the top to help keep the plants from drying out. My girlfriend and I carried the tank out to the truck on the removable stand top that's sitting under the tank in the photos. 

I had created a level platform in the back seat of the truck using plywood, and we loaded the tank onto that and then reclined the passenger seat into contact with the front glass to keep the tank in place during the ride. As soon as we arrived at the new place (about a 15 minute drive) and had the tank setup in the new office/fish room, and I immediately filled it and got the canisters running again. 

All together the process of moving the tank went pretty smoothly. The substrate shifted slightly while we were carrying the tank, which clouded the water and stirred up muck. I also lost a couple of fish in the process, although the majority did not seem phased. Unfortunately after getting the filters running again, I did nothing else with the tank for almost the next month. Things were so hectic with the move and there were so many items of greater priority, that I did not get lights or CO2 hooked back up or dose any ferts at all until about three and a half weeks later. I did leave the blinds open just enough to let the plants get some ambient light during the day and hoped that would be enough to keep them alive. 

When I finally had a chance to assess the damage and get the lights and CO2 going again, I was surprised to find that only one species had been completely extinguished - Blyxa japonica - leaving me still with Leopard Val, Eriocaulon lineare, Limnophila aromatica, Mini Myrio, Bacopa Compact, Fuzzy Limnophila, Hygro Compact, Isoetes lacustris, Rotala rotundifolia, Hydrocotyle leucocephala, AR Variegated, Ludwigia Super Red and a collection of mosses and ferns: plenty of plants to choose from for putting together a new layout. 

Of course none of these were/are in good shape after three plus weeks with almost no light, so I'm currently working on getting them back into shape and growing out decent groups. Prior to the move I had been using two 5-gallon tanks for growing out plants and holding onto extra plant species. However, I chose to shut those down indefinitely when we moved given time constraints. Really, 5-gallon grow out tanks are really pretty low return on effort, and I'm not sure they'll be missed. Growing out may take a little longer without the 5s, but I'll also have more time and effort to put toward the "big" tank.

While waiting for the survivors to multiply, it's a perfect time to think about the return of the moss wall and mossing up some new hardscape. There are some different ideas I'd like to try, and for the wall, I am (with reservation) considering using good ole' fashioned Java moss. I avoided using this for the first moss wall because of its invasiveness, but it's what the Dutch use. It will be a PITA, no doubt. But I figure if people with actual Dutch style aquariums can manage it in five, even nine-foot tanks, I should be able to keep a handle on it in a two-foot tank...right?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*32 Gallon Frameless Semi-Dutch*

Good to hear the move went well, although I can imagine it just gets too crazy when moving so I think leaving the tank was the best idea. Trying to keep the hobby going when it's stressful makes it become a chore, and that's when you lose interest. I'm excited for the new journey ahead!
I would just try and grow things out in the big tank like you were saying. Maybe focus on plant health first then move on to properly scaping it once things look good. You probably could just scape it from the get-go but it may be easier if you have more plants to work with.
Hahaha TBH the moss species that don't attach well and branch off make me want to tear my hair out. Whatever Vesicularia species I have is all in my carpet and it's just too annoying to sit their to remove it. Also the fact it doesn't attach too well means I have to be careful when handling it. The Java moss may be more manageable in a Dutch setup since their isn't hardscape/much hardscape so it's pretty easy to clean up stray bits that are on the substrate. Another thing to remember is those people that use it in the large tanks are actual machines, their commitment to constant trimming and cleaning is something to marvel. I can't imagine being so on the ball constantly trimming/replanting stems pretty much everyday. In the end it probably will be a bit more work than other mosses like a Fissidens wall, but it will look good and have that more classic textured look. The biggest pain will be when it comes to trimming but I figure it will be the same for all mosses, it may be better to try and use your hands to pick off clumps (if that doesn't rip the whole wall off that is).


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> Hahaha TBH the moss species that don't attach well and branch off make me want to tear my hair out. Whatever Vesicularia species I have is all in my carpet and it's just too annoying to sit their to remove it. Also the fact it doesn't attach too well means I have to be careful when handling it. The Java moss may be more manageable in a Dutch setup since their isn't hardscape/much hardscape so it's pretty easy to clean up stray bits that are on the substrate. Another thing to remember is those people that use it in the large tanks are actual machines, their commitment to constant trimming and cleaning is something to marvel. I can't imagine being so on the ball constantly trimming/replanting stems pretty much everyday. In the end it probably will be a bit more work than other mosses like a Fissidens wall, but it will look good and have that more classic textured look. The biggest pain will be when it comes to trimming but I figure it will be the same for all mosses, it may be better to try and use your hands to pick off clumps (if that doesn't rip the whole wall off that is).
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You hit on both of the main reasons I'm thinking of using Java. Its willingness to attach, I think, may solve some of the issues I ran into with the mini Christmas. The problem with the mini Christmas wall was that after a while, the fishing line started to loosen enough for patches to work themselves free. This left gaps in the wall that started dying off. Trimming was not straightforward either, because lifting the wall out of the tank caused the moss to shift on the wall underneath the fishing line, opening up more patches. 

I'm hoping that with the java moss, trimming will actually be easier, since the moss will stay in place when I pull the wall out. I think this will also allow tighter thinning/trimming and more uniform coverage over time, as the moss will actually spread along and populate the wall. 

And the other reason I want to try Java is for the texture. I think the disorganization maybe is what helps add to the illusion of depth in those Dutch tanks, whereas highly organized mosses like mini Christmas appear a little flatter to me when covering a large area. In fact for this reason I may lace the Java with a little Fissidens and Riccia, just to break up the growth pattern.

That's a good point about the minimal hardscape. Not having any carpet plants for the Java to infest will be huge as well. People who are able to successfully manage large Dutch tanks really are something else. I'm definitely not saying I can do what they do, lol. Fortunately the task at hand for me is (literally) much smaller.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That is very interesting about mosses. Im still planning a partial wall in mine...maybe

Regular Willow moss might be another good option, it attaches hard and fast to just about anything. 

No idea if that's a good moss for a wall or not, Ive never done onel before.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

*32 Gallon Frameless Semi-Dutch*



LRJ said:


> You hit on both of the main reasons I'm thinking of using Java. Its willingness to attach, I think, may solve some of the issues I ran into with the mini Christmas. The problem with the mini Christmas wall was that after a while, the fishing line started to loosen enough for patches to work themselves free.
> 
> 
> 
> And the other reason I want to try Java is for the texture. I think the disorganization maybe is what helps add to the illusion of depth in those Dutch tanks, whereas highly organized mosses like mini Christmas appear a little flatter to me when covering a large area. In fact for this reason I may lace the Java with a little Fissidens and Riccia, just to break up the growth pattern.


Yeah that Mini Christmas is similar to whatever I have and that is the exact problem I'm facing. New growth sort of just loosely floats around whatever I've attached it to which is a major PITA.
A Java Moss wall has those shadows that develop which I think is what really adds the sense of depth to the scape.
You are putting Riccia and Java Moss willingly into you're tank! Craziness hahaha. JK but if you can deal with the Java Moss you'll be able yo keep Riccia under control. I just really hate that stuff, but again without a carpet shouldn't be too problematic.



burr740 said:


> Regular Willow moss might be another good option, it attaches hard and fast to just about anything.
> 
> No idea if that's a good moss for a wall or not, Ive never done onel before.


I've noticed Willow Moss is ADA's go-to moss and seeing how it grows in their tanks I can see why. It probably gives the most natural sort of mossy forest look on branches, and you saying it attaches well makes sense seeing how it grows in those tanks. Could be interesting in a wall because it also sort of does funny branching out growth.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> That is very interesting about mosses. Im still planning a partial wall in mine...maybe
> 
> Regular Willow moss might be another good option, it attaches hard and fast to just about anything.
> 
> No idea if that's a good moss for a wall or not, Ive never done onel before.


Thanks for the tip - didn't know Willow moss would attach. 

What I'm going to do is setup a few more trial pads on the back wall. One will be Java moss, maybe one Willow moss, and one Anchor moss. 

When/if you make that partial moss wall, I'll be interested to see what you come up with. I haven't seen anyone do that before.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> Thanks for the tip - didn't know Willow moss would attach.
> 
> What I'm going to do is setup a few more trial pads on the back wall. One will be Java moss, maybe one Willow moss, and one Anchor moss.
> 
> When/if you make that partial moss wall, I'll be interested to see what you come up with. I haven't seen anyone do that before.


It's about the same as Java moss, strands are a little different of course. Except it attaches a lot stronger and faster. Ive had it stick to the back glass before. 

Fontinalis antipyretica aka Willow moss is what it was.


By partial wall I just mean coming down 8-10 inches in the back instead of all or most of the way down.

Same thing for the right side, except that wall will be sort of a big triangle.

Basically covering just the visible parts is what I have in mind. Not sure if it'll work well or not.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> It's about the same as Java moss, strands are a little different of course. Except it attaches a lot stronger and faster. Ive had it stick to the back glass before.
> 
> Fontinalis antipyretica aka Willow moss is what it was.
> 
> ...


Didn't realize you were planning a side as well. That's gonna look awesome. 

Only issue I can think of possibly would be fish being able to swim behind it and potentially get trapped if it doesn't extend down to the substrate, but I really doubt it would actually be an issue. If they can find their way in they can probably find their way out.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Getting Dutchier*
















Most true Dutch tanks have the sides covered and have the front trim hiding both the water line and the substrate line. These are important features of the style for hiding equipment and framing the composition. So I’ve been thinking about building some sort of enclosure for a while and finally decided to go for it.

Today was the test fit. Still has to be sanded and finished. The trickiest part about this was modifying the stand/cabinet for an established tank without breaking the tank down. The tank had to be drained down to about an inch of water and taken off the stand. Then the base for the enclosure was affixed onto the existing stand, the tank put back into place and refilled, the enclosure assembled for the test fit and then taken back down. It sounds like a pain, but with my girlfriend helping lift the tank, the whole process took about 20 mins from start to finish.

I’ll also be putting doors on, and I’m working on a way to integrate the ATI fixture into a hinged canopy.

Please excuse the appearance of the tank itself. Pic was right after the refill, and I’m in the process of growing out plant groups and figuring out some species to part with. Things are a bit sloppy right now.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Dutchier indeed! Thats gonna be sweet


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Dutchier indeed! Thats gonna be sweet


Thanks, man! I've been wanting to do this for a while now. Will help hide the side moss walls too.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> Thanks, man! I've been wanting to do this for a while now. Will help hide the side moss walls too.


Are you thinking about doing the AGA competition in Sept?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Are you thinking about doing the AGA competition in Sept?


I have thought about it, but it really will depend on where the scape and plants are at around that time. If I entered it would not be out of any hopes of placing (lol), but simply out of support for the category through participation. I think it's great that it exists and want to see it continue and grow.

Now, you and Pikez, I would love to see enter! That would be some solid U.S. representation right there. Both of you would stand a strong chance imo.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> I have thought about it, but it really will depend on where the scape and plants are at around that time. If I entered it would not be out of any hopes of placing (lol), but simply out of support for the category through participation. I think it's great that it exists and want to see it continue and grow.
> 
> Now, you and Pikez, I would love to see enter! That would be some solid U.S. representation right there. Both of you would stand a strong chance imo.


No more solid than yours could be! Hell yours is a truer Dutch than either of ours.

Im thinking about it too, not sure mine will be ready enough, or Dutch enough, but it would be interesting to get feedback from judges comments.

And like you said, I believe they would appreciate some nicer entries, 100% Dutch or not.

I believe Vin is leaning toward entering. He wouldve won last year imo, considering the competition. 

I hope some of the Netherland masters submit theirs this year.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> No more solid than yours could be! Hell yours is a truer Dutch than either of ours.
> 
> Im thinking about it too, not sure mine will be ready enough, or Dutch enough, but it would be interesting to get feedback from judges comments.
> 
> ...


Yes, I hope some of the Dutch masters enter too. 

And I agree about Vin's tank. This current iteration would have won the most recent competition hands down. It is incredible. 

Hopefully it's a strong showing all around, especially after last year, and I say that with no intended insult to last year's entrants and winners. The category just needs more volume.


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## Saxa Tilly (Apr 7, 2015)

LRJ said:


> Yes, I hope some of the Dutch masters enter too.
> 
> And I agree about Vin's tank. This current iteration would have won the most recent competition hands down. It is incredible.
> 
> Hopefully it's a strong showing all around, especially after last year, and I say that with no intended insult to last year's entrants and winners. The category just needs more volume.


Thanks, LRJ!

That frame is dutchier than Dutch!

I am still completely undecided on entering the AGA. Both Karen Randall and Bart Laurens looked at a pic of my tank and said it would qualify as a Dutch entry. Karen said that it was the first real Dutch-style tank she’d seen in the US. Whoa! I’m not worthy! 

Still, you know how it is. Jeez. There are literally 20 things about the tank that I’d like to change. Examples: I have red plants next to reds. My rule-of-thirds focal point plants have slowly wandered off their focal points. I always have some stunted Rotala. No moss wall. I’ll have to remove perma-fixed PVC plumbing before the photo shoot. But the hardest part is getting all the plants to the right shape, size, and condition. I am working with 18-20 species and getting half of them to optimal condition on a specific day is difficult. Timing them all to arrive at a sweet spot for photography (or worse, in-house judging like they do in the Netherlands!) is damn near impossible. I have no clue how they do it over there. This is the hardest part. The only explanation I have for how NBAT competitors can do it is: you get so familiar with a species that you know EXACTLY how long it will take a particular species to ‘arrive’ at the sweet spot. Then you work backwards and time it so they all arrive at the right time for photography or judging. I can finally do this with my Pantanal – 6 days to go from 4” to 20” and on any given day in between, I know how tall it will be. So, no monkeying around with new species that you don’t know thoroughly. 

On the other hand, Americans haven’t even shown up to the party in past years. It’s too freakin’ daunting! But I’d like to change that. As with most things, showing up is key.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Saxa Tilly said:


> Thanks, LRJ!
> 
> That frame is dutchier than Dutch!
> 
> ...


Well said, and that is quite a stamp of approval from Bart Laurens and Karen Randall! 

Hell, it’s nearly impossible to nail all of the criteria simultaneously. For example, in Bart's talk he was even picking out flaws with this past year's Dutch A1 national champion tank, and yet he acknowledged that it was still the best tank in the competition last year. So while I understand having reservations about entering the tank when it’s not as good as you feel it could be, waiting for perfection is waiting for something that may never come. 

And the competitions force improvement, which is why they’re nice. You have to whip your tank into the best shape you can for the judging and own the tank’s weaknesses. In fact one of the main purposes for the NBAT inspections is for the members to receive constructive criticism and use it to get better.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

LRJ don't know how I have missed this thread. Just spent some time going through your journal, and it's a very good read. 

Really enjoyed seeing all the changes and transformations over time. And lots of great pictures of healthy looking plants and beautiful presentations.

Nice work. I know I am late to the party but subscribed!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Greggz said:


> LRJ don't know how I have missed this thread. Just spent some time going through your journal, and it's a very good read.
> 
> Really enjoyed seeing all the changes and transformations over time. And lots of great pictures of healthy looking plants and beautiful presentations.
> 
> Nice work. I know I am late to the party but subscribed!


Thanks! I'm certainly following and enjoying what you're doing in your 120 gallon. Stunning tank and fish you have!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Quick update and some photos*


Replaced the Isoetes lacustris with Heteranthera zosterifolia. Needed something fuller to anchor the corner.
Ditched the Limnophila aromatica, too big and unruly for this tank size and style. 
Still searching for a replacement for the aforementioned to go in the lefthand midground. Thinking of going with a classic red like Ludwigia glandulosa or 'Rubin' or AR 'Rosaefolia.' 
Added some logs of Mini Pellia. Not sure yet whether they'll stay or be replaced by something like Fissidens 'Fox.'
Still trying to beef up the Rotala rotundifolia and Limnophila 'Fuzzy' groups. Seems like it shouldn't take this long given how fast they grow, lol, but quality is key...
The Hygrophila 'Compact' just got a heavy pruning. Should get back to good midground height within a few weeks. 
Still need to add a moss wall. Testing out some Fissidens 'Fox' for this role at the moment; that's the black foam block on the lefthand side wall in the fts below.









































Thanks for looking!


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Wow! Very nicely done. That was a lot of work but it is absolutely gorgeous.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Warpiper said:


> Wow! Very nicely done. That was a lot of work but it is absolutely gorgeous.


Thank you @Warpiper. This tank is a constant work in progress and learning experience. Just a few days ago the Rotala rotundifolia was in its sweet spot. Now today it's just shy of stunting. This should be an easy plant, but for some reason in my setup it's super touchy. Pinpointing why it does well sometimes and not others is the tricky part to figure out.

I went ahead and ordered some Alternanthera reineckii 'Rosaefolia' for the lefthand midground and some flame moss for the wall behind it. As long as the AR grows well and doesn't get too large, it should be a nice addition and provide a good red focal point.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

The Stargrass is coming up fast and will soon fill up the entire left corner. This is a plant that I kept back when this was a nature style tank, and it was one of my favorites then too. Real basic plant, but beautiful. Really digging having it in the tank.

























Hoping the AR that I ordered will get here by Friday. I'm really looking forward to seeing how the left side will look once that gap is filled with red.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

The AR arrived today in great shape, very high quality plants from Han Aquatics. If anything, the coloration might be _too_ intense to be a focal point plant in this tank, but I'll give it some time to feel it out. 

In any event, I hope that I can keep it looking as nice as it does right now. The AR variegated in this tank (front right corner) exhibits badly undulated leaf margins and is a darker than optimal coloration. I've heard that regular AR is easier to keep, so I'll be interested to see how this goes with the 'Rosaefolia.'

I also received some flame moss and java moss in this shipment. My original plan was to put the flame moss behind the 'Rosaefolia,' but now I'm thinking about instead having it rise up along the wall behind the Rotala. The java moss, I'll stick on a pad on one of the side walls for now; still trying to figure out which direction to go in in terms of moss walls.

One other thing to note, I'm pretty on the fence about the fuzzy limnophila (the green plant in the right side background that looks sort of like Limnophila sessiliflora). I'd like there to be a wall of bright green where it's at right now, and I'm not sure it's a dense enough plant for that. I'll stick with it for a few more weeks probably, test the impact of fattening the group a little more. But I'm already eyeing Hygrophila difformis or balsamica (although both may get too large), Pogostemon erectus, and Bacopa caroliniana as possible replacements.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice! I wound up ditching the fuzz limno as well, too fast and leggy. 

Is that pennywort in the front right? Thinking about bringing that one back in mine up front when I do the side wall


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Nice! I wound up ditching the fuzz limno as well, too fast and leggy.
> 
> Is that pennywort in the front right? Thinking about bringing that one back in mine up front when I do the side wall


Thanks! Yes, that's pennywort in the front right corner. The average leaf diameter is a little smaller right now, as I just did a big trim on the old growth.

Getting the front corner plants to grow straight up the corners has always been a challenge with the way those spots get pounded by flow. The vallisneria has pretty good staying power once it gets tall, but the hydrocotyle leucocephala tends to sprawl in the current.

I finally suction cupped a strip of black Poret foam on the right side there. Used a razor blade to cut short 1/2" deep slits all over the strip, then planted the pennywort sprigs into the slits and allowed them to root into the foam. Same could be done with buces or anubias and would look good. I'd like to try it with the 'Green Wavy' buce if it wasn't so damn expensive! Only drawback with this method is you can see the foam strip (which is about an inch thick) from the front view, but once the enclosure is completed the strip will be hidden.

Once you get that side wall in place you could do the same thing planting straight into the moss.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Welp... went to swap out the CO2 tank tonight and the Permaseal must have gotten got jacked up some how in the process of removing the old cylinder, because when I went to hook the regulator up to the new tank, the nut on the regulator would no longer fit over the Permaseal - maybe it got bent or the edges roughed up? 

Anyway, because I stupidly haven't been keeping any backup seals on-hand and the local welding supply stores are now closed for the weekend, the CO2 likely won't be running again until Monday. I've already gone ahead and turned off the lights to do a full blackout until the CO2 is back. Hopefully a few days of darkness won't set the tank back too far.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That sucks. Ive broke a couple of those things, they're pretty fragile. I just use nylon washers from the gas place now, they give me 2 or 3 with every fill up.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> That sucks. Ive broke a couple of those things, they're pretty fragile. I just use nylon washers from the gas place now, they give me 2 or 3 with every fill up.


Do you think no light is the way to go until the CO2 is back up, or would you go with low light?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Id probably run just enough to keep the plants upright, so they could continue on with their circadian rhythm if nothing else. But thats just a personal theory, no idea if it'd really be better or not.

Either way two days blacked out isnt going to hurt anything.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

I’m uploading a photo of the tank for documentation purposes, but not all is well at the moment. Here are some of the issues:



Rotala rotundifolia and AR variegated are stunting. 
Regular AR has definitely lost some of that vibrant pink it had when I received it.
Bacopa monnieri compact is coming back very slowly from the last trim with small new growth. 
Mini myrio is a dull yellowish green, not bright and vibrant. 
Nearly all of the java moss and flame moss I added died within two days. Fortunately I managed to save a few fronds of each that I’ll use to try to get them going.
New growth on the Heternthera zosterifolia is coming in whitish and very slightly deformed.
New growth on the val is whitish too.
Tufts of BBA popping up on the substrate and filter outlets, GSA and GDA on the glass. Been months since I’ve had noticeable algae in the tank.

Only cause I can think of is that the CO2 being out for a few days combined with the blackout threw the tank out of balance. Frustrating hobby at times.

So today I did a bigger than usual water change (about 80%) and I’ll be notching the CO2 up over the next few days. I also dosed Excel after the water change, which I normally don’t dose, but figured the tank could use a ‘shot in the arm.’

I will be going out of town for a week vacation at the end of this week, so I’m really hoping to get things heading in the right direction here before I have to leave.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

This is what I mean about the new growth on the stargrass being pale. Micros issue? Too little or too much? Not sure. Just added some ferrous gluconate to see if that helps.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Came home from vacation to this:









I hooked up a full tank right before I left. The plants look like they've been without CO2 for several days, so I must have gone through a full tank in under half a week. Guess I'll hook up a full tank tomorrow and try to find the leak. Very thankful I was only gone for a week.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Yikes, never a good thing to come back to. Wishing you the best of luck! You should get things sorted soon, I'm sure of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

thar she blows


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Damn, is that a GLA SS model?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

How would you go about fixing that???


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

The Dude1 said:


> How would you go about fixing that???


By removing the cga nipple, cleaning the threads and adding new teflon tape or pipe dope, tighten it back up.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Damn, is that a GLA SS model?


Yes, it's a GLA PRO-SS two stage. That connection had become loose. I think it happened over time as a result of me grabbing a hold of the regulator body for leverage when swapping out cylinders. 



The Dude1 said:


> How would you go about fixing that???





Nlewis said:


> By removing the cga nipple, cleaning the threads and adding new teflon tape or pipe dope, tighten it back up.


All I did was tighten it back up really well, and that seemed to do the trick so far. Just checked it again a few minutes ago and still no leak, so hopefully that's the last of it.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

CO2 has been steady since tightening the loose connection, however the tank is still not right. Pale new growth on most plants. Deformed and stunted new growth on AR and AR var, Rotala rotundiolia, Fuzzy Limno, and Bacopa monnieri compact. Some bba on the substrate, driftwood, filter equipment and old leaves of Bacopa monnieri compact. GSA on old leaves of AR Var, AR and Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Some sort of staghorn or black hair algae on the leaf margins of Hydrocotyle leucocephala, AR, AR Var and mini trident.

Pale growth at base of Leopard Val








Pale new growth on mini Myrio








Pale new growth on stargrass








Pale new growth on Fuzzy Limno, two stunted stems in the front








Pale and deformed new growth on Bacopa monnieri compact








Deformed AR var, algae on old leaves


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Possibly the plants are still righting themselves from the CO2 outage?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> Possibly the plants are still righting themselves from the CO2 outage?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Maybe. I'm not really sure how long it would take the plants to start recovering from that type of disruption. There were actually two CO2-related incidents. I lost CO2 on 7/15 due to a broken seal and decided to black the tank out over the weekend until I could hook up a new cylinder. Growth issues started to pop up after that and were still present when I left for vacation on 7/27. New growth on the star grass especially starting coming in almost white. Then I went away for vacation, and CO2 went out while I was gone due to the regulator leak; light continued to run as usual this time until I came home. Most of the issues that had begun after the first outage worsened after that, and some new issues appeared. The tank has been knocked out of balance, definitely. 

Whether the plants are righting themselves or whether the tank is currently re-balancing, I'm not so sure about that. Seems like things might be heading in the other direction. For example, Hydrocotyle leucocephala has now joined the pale new growth party.









That little yellow leaf at the top-right just opened up over the last few hours of the photo-period tonight. That's the first sign of this particular symptom in the Hydrocotyle leucocephala. Maybe it's a developing fert issue initiated by the CO2 outage? 

I did a 65% water change tonight, and if things don't start improving by the end of this week, maybe I'll do a back-to-back water change to hard reset the parameters.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

A reset could be worth doing just to get everything back to normal


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## angelacalvilo (Aug 14, 2017)

Amazing tank, very like it.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> A reset could be worth doing just to get everything back to normal
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You may be right. Might go ahead and do another water change tonight.

Bump:


angelacalvilo said:


> Amazing tank, very like it.


 @angelacalvilo Very kind words, thank you!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Mini Update*

Decided to test nitrate after the discussion with Opare on 8/14. Nitrate was near 160 ppm. 

A big water change brought that down to 30 ppm. From there I let the tank coast with no additional dosing other than daily Excel for the next three days. 

By the end of the photo period on 8/17, nitrate was down to 10 ppm and phosphate at 1 ppm. Over the three day coasting-period, fuzzy limno and bacopa monnieri compact exploded in growth. The majority of the rotala unstunted. It would appear there was an overaccumulation of ferts from the CO2 outages.

Stargrass and hydrocotyle leucocephala however still show pale new growth, and both AR varieties remain stunted/deformed.

Dosed 9.18 ppm nitrate and 1.08 ppm phosphate today to prevent them from bottoming out. Will dose 0.01 ppm Fe from CSM+B and 0.01 ppm Fe from DTPA 10% tomorrow.


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

LRJ said:


> It would appear there was an overaccumulation of ferts from the CO2 outages.


That's what I thought it might be, because the plants weren't really using much of the nutrients when the CO2 was out. Then that was causing toxicities or something in your plants hence the poor growth.
I think now things have been reset the ship should right itself. Even the plants that are still struggling hopefully will follow suit with the others that have improved.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Opare said:


> I think now things have been reset the ship should right itself. Even the plants that are still struggling hopefully will follow suit with the others that have improved.


Hopefully so. I'll be watching closely for signs of improvement and keeping a close eye on parameters. The lesson I've learned from this is that I need to break out the test kits more often.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Full tank shot from tonight to show the overall state of affairs. Another big water change tonight and some trimming, and I cleaned one of the filters today. Will probably clean the other about mid week. Doing everything I can to get the ship righted.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Finally found some time to sand and finish the enclosure. No stain, just clear satin poly rubbed out with Turtle Wax. Next step is to integrate the ATI fixture into a hinged canopy, but I imagine it will be a while before that's completed.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Casing looks good, really like that.

Hows everything growing now? And what are you currently dosing for macros and micros?

Since nitrates were so high, is the assumption that by proxy everything else was too? 

This would support how an overdose looks much the same as a deficiency. Just looking at the leaves before when they were pale, low Fe or N would be a logical guess.

Im not sure about N, but Ive seen first hand many times an overdose of Fe starts to resemble a deficiency. Interesting.

That leopard val looks sweet. Never could get mine to look that nice in the front corner. In pictures it just looked like a big dark shadow. Probably needed to scoot it off the side a little more like yours. My other foreground plants on both sides weren't really laid out for that though. Gonna try to do it better next scape


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Casing looks good, really like that.
> 
> Hows everything growing now? And what are you currently dosing for macros and micros?
> 
> ...


Thanks, Burr. I appreciate that. I'm really enjoying the casing. Frames the layout and helps hide the substrate line and some of the equipment. Side views aren't missed as much in this sort of tank, especially if I end up mossing the sides, which I might have to do after seeing how good it looks in your tank. Space is always an issue in this two footer though. Even losing a half an inch on each side is a big deal.

As far as whether I was (am) dealing with a deficiency or excess I am not sure. My hunch is that maybe it was a bit of...both? I'll give you the whole run down and you can see what you can make of it. I apologize for the length of what follows, but your questions were good a excuse to do a proper update. If you have any ideas or suggestions, I would love to hear.

*Past Issues and Response*
Growth has improved, but is not as good as it could be. As mentioned previously, as of 8/13 I was observing pale new growth in most plants; deformed and stunted new growth on AR and AR var, Rotala rotundiolia, Fuzzy Limno, Bacopa monnieri compact; some bba on the substrate, driftwood, filter equipment and old leaves of bacopa monnieri compact; GSA on old leaves of AR Var, AR and hydrocotyle leucocephala; staghorn algae on leaf margins of hydrocotyle leucocephala, AR, AR Var. That’s when I measured and found nitrates near 160 ppm and TDS at over 265 ppm. I think it’s fair to assume that the high nitrates served as a proxy for there being an accumulation of everything in the water, maybe even micros though I’d been dosing them sparingly. The accumulation must have occurred in the midst of me going away on vacations, CO2 outages, etc.

Over the next week I did a major trim, several major water changes, and cleaned the filters. I also ceased dosing until 8/18 other than daily Excel at the recommended doses. Basically, a hard reset of the system. Coinciding with these changes, overall tank health seemed to improve. Rotala unstunted rapidly. Fuzzy limno and bacopa monnieri compact started taking off. Stargrass seemed to get more color. However, the Hydrocotyle leucocephala still had pale new growth, and both AR varieties were still unhappy. Algae was still present on substrate, equipment, driftwood, AR varieties and Hydrocotyle leucocephala.

On 8/18 I resumed dosing. Macros were dry dosed every other day in the form of KNO3 and KH2PO4 to yield the following approximate concentrations per dose: 9.18 ppm NO3; 6.23 ppm K; 1.08 ppm PO4 (i.e., 0.25 tsp KNO3 and 0.03125 tsp KH2PO4 to 30 gallons of water). KH2PO4 had been previously dosed at 0.0625 tsp or 2.15 ppm PO4; this was lowered when I resumed dosing, because I felt I had room to spare and wanted to reduce the overall amount of ‘stuff’ in the water column. For similar reasons, I indefinitely ceased dosing of Seachem Equilibrium. Micros were dosed at previous levels, every other day, as a solution containing roughly equal parts of Fe from CSM+B and DTPA Fe 10%. Each dose of micro solution yielded approximately 0.017 ppm Fe. This dosing regime was maintained until 9/16 with weekly 50% water changes. 

*Algae Status*
Algae issues have for the most part resolved. Over the past month I’ve manually hassled the algae on a daily basis, removing tufts from the substrate, bleaching equipment, and removing favorite hiding spots and flow impediments like excess driftwood and the Poret foam in the front corner. I also continued daily dosing of Excel through 8/29. A few tufts remain on the substrate and pH probe, but the plants virtually have none other than what remains from before on the old stunted growth on the AR Var. The old AR Var growth will be removed soon, but I’ve been keeping it around as a before and after comparison.

*Plant Statuses*
In terms of plant health, Rotala rotundifolia and the AR varieties kept improving. Currently, the Rotala rotundifolia is about as healthy as I have ever seen it in this tank; much larger and throwing off many new side-shoots which it’s never done before. The AR variegated is not perfect, but is also as happy as I’ve ever seen it in this tank. Weirdly, the regular AR seems to be recovering more slowly than the variegated form. It does seem to be improving, but still shows undulated leaf margins, some slight hooking of leaves, and less than optimal coloration. 

In contrast to the Rotala and AR, Heteranthera zosterifolia and Hydrocotyle leucocephala continued to suffer. Heteranthera zosterifolia eventually got so bad that I lost patience with it and removed it from the tank; new growth was almost pure white with black leaf margins (if I want to bring it back after all this is sorted out, it’s an easy plant to obtain). The algae that was growing on the Hydrocotyle leucocephla totally disappeared, however the coloration of the plant got worse. Additionally, the java ferns, particularly the India fern, have pale color and transparent tips. Bacopa compact, mini Myrio, Hygro compact and Leopard val are all doing pretty well. The Fuzzy Limno was doing OK, but I ended up tossing it anyway. Was a weed and too much of a pain trying to get all of the stems to look nice at the same time.

Rotala rotundifolia (9/18/17)








AR Variegted (9/18/17)








AR Rosaefolia (9/18/17)








Hydrocotyle leucocephala (9/18/17)








India Fern (9/18/17)








*Suspicions*
I suspect that the initial issues that popped up a month ago largely resulted from the CO2 outages I was having in combination with an accumulation and subsequent excess of some substances. The rotala and AR are clearly happier under the leaner conditions that I have been maintaining for the last month. The Hydrocotyle and ferns are (and the Heteranthera zosterifolia was) exhibiting what would seem to be a clear micro deficiency, probably Fe. One might suggest that Hydrocotyle leucocephala et al. are continuing to suffer the effects of the previous excesses, but given what we think we know about the relative sensitivities of Rotala and AR, I’d expect these plants to be doing as poor as or worse than plants like pennywort and star grass if an excess was still in play. So my current hypothesis is that micros are the key here, and that Rotala and AR can tolerate the current level, but that some of the other plants find this level to be insufficient. The plan therefore is to ratchet the micros up slowly to see if I can find an acceptable middle ground for all the species in the tank.

*New Changes*
In line with the plan outlined in the previous section, I have as of 9/16 slightly increased the micro dose to yield approximately: 0.019 ppm Fe; 0.002 ppm Mg; 0.0027 ppm Mn; 0.0001 ppm Cu; 0.0005 ppm Zn; 0.0001 ppm Mo; and 0.0011 ppm B. I will hold micros at this level for two weeks, observe the new growth of the Hydrocotyle leucocephala and make another marginal increase if there are still deficiency symptoms. Hopefully, the deficiency symptoms in the Hydrocotyle (and other plants) resolve at a level of micros that the Rotala and AR still find acceptable.

At the same time, I am making another, pretty substantial change in the tank, which is to move from 100% tap water to a mixture of RO/DI and tap water. People following along over at Barr Report may think this move is a response to what Pikez has been discussing over there, but I had already been planning on doing this and have the receipt to prove it (lol). Our tap water here in south GA comes from the Florida aquifer and I suspect has some stuff in it that might not be good for certain plant species. My tap KH fluctuates between 5 and 9, and GH fluctuates within a narrower range that centers on 10. If nothing else, I’d like to bring both of these down and stabilize them. So starting on 9/13, I began introducing RO/DI water at water change. By next week or so, I should have the tank KH down to about 1, which is the level I want to target for now. I know I really shouldn’t be changing multiple factors at once, but I just didn’t want to wait any longer to make this change. Once I’ve reached the target KH of 1 however, I won’t be making any other major changes to the system (other than maybe some livestock additions) until after the process of incrementally adjusting micros has concluded.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

Are the regular AR leaves suppose to be that skinny or that is the size for the Rosaefolia sp?

Did you notice how dark the AR leaves were when the nitrate levels were in the high range? I'm trying to determine if that was a key indicator since I accidentally ran my tank at the 80 ppm range for quite some time. The regular AR that I added to the tank had very dark blood red for all the new leaves which I suspect is caused by too much nitrates. 

You should send me your water and let's do a full test with my Hanna meter to see what is going on. I think you were the one who gave me a leopard val in exchange for a water test but never sent me a sample to test. I'm curious to see what the Ca/Mg levels at that GH. 

Also new star grass leaves tend to be a little white near the stem but should still have some green at the tip of the leaves.

PM me if you want to let me test your water.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Are the regular AR leaves suppose to be that skinny or that is the size for the Rosaefolia sp?
> 
> Did you notice how dark the AR leaves were when the nitrate levels were in the high range? I'm trying to determine if that was a key indicator since I accidentally ran my tank at the 80 ppm range for quite some time. The regular AR that I added to the tank had very dark blood red for all the new leaves which I suspect is caused by too much nitrates.
> 
> ...


The AR rosaefolia leaves do seem to be naturally skinnier than the variegated leaves, but they shouldn't be coming in as skinny as they are now. Part of that appearance is the way the leaves are sort of rolled up. When the plant is happy, the leaves should be nice and flat. Back in post #92 you can see what it looked like when I first received it. It's not the greatest photo, but you can see that it was a fresh pink color, not the dark, grayish-red you observed that it has taken on since being in my tank, and the leaves were mostly flat. Color has improved since the system was reset, but form is still bad. Basically, both the regular AR and the AR variegated are currently happier than they were, but at the same time not happy. It is true that the worst health of both AR varieties did coincide with when I took the measurement of the high nitrates, but as Burr pointed out and I agree with, the high nitrates was probably a proxy for everything in the tank being at high levels. So it's tough to pin down the cause of the issues or the reasons for improvement. 

Yes, I was the one who sent you the Leopard val and some pink ramshorn snails, but I got caught up with moving and never got a chance to send the samples. It would be great to get a water analysis and know what I'm working with. Really appreciate it. I'll PM you.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice update!! Sounds like you're on the right track. Some plants take longer to recover than others.

Why so much KNO3? Probably not an issue, just wondering if you've tried maybe 6-7 ppm.

Fe gluconate might be good to add. Since rolling my own, I originally started out using all dtpa. That worked OK, but I could never get some things past a deficiency without causing overdose symptoms elsewhere.

So I began adding some gluc and things got better fast. Currently running about 60% gluc and 40% dtpa. Tried all gluc for a while but a little of both seems to work best in my set ups.

The stronger the chelate, the more energy plants have to use to "get it". Gluconate doesnt stick around as long as DTPA but plants can absorb it easier/faster.

Interesting read on that if you havent seen it - Iron gluconate

As for mossing the sides, if you do it like mine using plastic mesh and suction cups, the structure itself is going to take up at least 5/8", might as well say 3/4. Then the moss another inch, up to an inch and a half as it grows out.

So you're looking at around 2". Still believe it would work though, those side panels would definitely accommodate it from the front view, just wouldnt have as much space to work with in between.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Nice update!! Sounds like you're on the right track. Some plants take longer to recover than others.
> 
> Why so much KNO3? Probably not an issue, just wondering if you've tried maybe 6-7 ppm.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the suggestions! Very interesting about your experience with Fe gluconate, think I remember reading about that in your journal as well, but didn't realize it made such a big difference. Seems like it's worth trying. How would you recommended implementing this? I know you roll your own, so you can isolate iron sources. Currently I'm using roughly equal parts Fe from DTPA and CSM+B. Would you recommended reducing the DTPA and CSM+B by equal parts to accommodate the addition of Gluc, or would you recommend reducing the DTPA by a relatively larger amount in order to avoid running short on other micros?

The current nitrate dose is what I've always dosed in this tank, basically recommended EI levels. I haven't really considered reducing it before, because I figured nitrates at the current dosage couldn't be causing issues as long as severe accumulation was avoided. However, now that you mention it might be interesting to try going leaner on nitrates. I'm inclined to run the course with adjusting micros though before tinkering with another variable.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Standard EI is 7.5 ppm 3x a week isnt it? Thats why I wondered how you arrived at needing 9 something. Just curious really, probably not a big deal as far as I know.

For micros based on what you're doing now Id probably go with something like .02/.01/.01 csmb/dpta/gluc, or even 03/01/01. 

Mainly because the Fe:Mn ratio doesnt need to get too far out of whack 

That would be about the same total Fe you're using now, or a little more which it looks you need anyway.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Standard EI is 7.5 ppm 3x a week isnt it? Thats why I wondered how you arrived at needing 9 something. Just curious really, probably not a big deal as far as I know.
> 
> For micros based on what you're doing now Id probably go with something like .02/.01/.01 csmb/dpta/gluc, or even 03/01/01.
> 
> ...


I have never really thought of EI in terms of specific ppm concentrations, but more so in terms of ranges. However it looks like you're right about standard EI being 7.5 ppm, at least according to Rotala Butterfly. But how I ended up at 9.18 ppm, is the ferts were purchased from GLA (still on the first batch from when I started the hobby), and GLA's EI dosing recommendation for 20-40 gallon tanks is 0.25 tsp of KNO3 3x per week. Since my system contains roughly 30 gallons of water volume accounting for the substrate and cans, that's how I ended up at the 9.18 ppm dose. I believe the same recommendation of 0.25 tsp KNO3 for 20-40 gallon tanks might be contained in the original EI guidelines posted over on Barr Report. One thing I recall reading somewhere, is that it's good to have a ratio of 10:1 nitrate to phosphate. I don't know the scientific reasoning behind this though or whether there's any truth to it. I sort of doubt nitrate matters too much as long as its non-limiting and not in extreme excess, but you kind of have me curious enough to bump it down a notch nonetheless.

Just to be 100% sure I understand, the suggested concentrations you listed for the micros refer to ppm Fe, correct? So for example, .02/.01/.01 means 0.02 ppm Fe from CSM+B, 0.01 ppm Fe from DTPA and 0.01 ppm Fe from Gluc, for a total of 0.04 ppm Fe per dose.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> Just to be 100% sure I understand, the suggested concentrations you listed for the micros refer to ppm Fe, correct? So for example, .02/.01/.01 means 0.02 ppm Fe from CSM+B, 0.01 ppm Fe from DTPA and 0.01 ppm Fe from Gluc, for a total of 0.04 ppm Fe per dose.


Yes thats what I meant. Or you might even try .03 Fe from csmb instead of .02. If your PH is such that edta Fe isnt a problem (6.5 and below) those additional micros aren't going to hurt anything. Thats one thing Ive learned over the past few months. If you PH is much over 6.5 for any period of time then you might need to be extremely reserved with it. 

As for any EI recipe you see in tsp measures, all of those are wild rough estimates. Works for many set-ups, but if you're going to get technical with it, targeting specific ppms and whatnot...then it's time to break out the digital scales so you can mix accurate solutions.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

burr740 said:


> If your PH is such that edta Fe isnt a problem (6.5 and below) those additional micros aren't going to hurt anything. Thats one thing Ive learned over the past few months. If you PH is much over 6.5 for any period of time then you might need to be extremely reserved with it.


From a Fe point of view: Given that the the cost of CO2 is negligible and if your fish are ok with it, does it not make sense to maintain a continuous supply of CO2 in order to keep the pH at a constant level below 6.5?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

OreoP said:


> From a Fe point of view: Given that the the cost of CO2 is negligible and if your fish are ok with it, does it not make sense to maintain a continuous supply of CO2 in order to keep the pH at a constant level below 6.5?


I believe that would solve it, yes. Back in my diy co2 days csmb worked a lot better dosing more "normal" levels.

As far as being negligible, all depends on the personal situation. In my case I'd love to run it 24/7, but Im already burning through 10 lbs in less than 3 months on the 120 gal, running it 9 hours per day.

24/7 would use almost 3x as much, which would put refills about once a month. At 20 bucks per refill, thats a difference between $80 per year and $240. 

Plus the time and effort of unhooking everything, and the 1 hour round trip to get it done, 12x per year vs. 4....not so negligible. And thats not even counting my other two tanks, a 50 and 75 gal. :icon_eek:

For smaller tanks though, yeah I think its a great idea. CO2 would probably be more efficient too.


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## OreoP (Aug 12, 2016)

burr740 said:


> I believe that would solve it, yes. Back in my diy co2 days csmb worked a lot better dosing more "normal" levels.
> 
> As far as being negligible, all depends on the personal situation. In my case I'd love to run it 24/7, but Im already burning through 10 lbs in less than 3 months on the 120 gal, running it 9 hours per day.
> 
> ...


Totally understand the economics you outline - I am fortunate enough to have a refill place 5 mins away from me. 5lb tank for my 65 gal is $12, 20lb tank for the 135gal is $22.


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## PortalMasteryRy (Oct 16, 2012)

@burr740 You will need to adjust your CO2 injection rate and lower it when you go 24/7 so that might help with the cost. I think I almost cut back half of the amount of CO2 I was injecting by the time I was done playing with it. 

I am now experimenting on lowering it some more. I don't know if I really need to be maintaining that high level of CO2 concentration considering it is on 24/7. I do like the results and being worry free with regards to CO2. 

You should sell me more of your plants so you can get some $ for refills and run it 24/7 to try! =)


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Another minor setback. Purchased new fish, and a few of them brought ich. No visible symptoms until a couple of days after putting them in the tank, but from there it spread quickly.

Treated by bringing the heat up to 88 F over a five day span and keeping it at that temp for 11 days. Haven't seen any remaining symptoms for four or five days now, so tonight I did a 50% water change and started transitioning the temp back down to 74 F.

Most of the plants hated the heat. Mini myrio in particular was almost completely wiped out other than a few wimpy stems I managed to salvage for propagation. Bacopa 'compact' was the only species that seemed completely unfazed. Hygro 'compact' decompacted. I've heard of this happening before but had never witnessed it in my tank. Interested to see whether it reverts to compact form once the tank reaches the cooler temps again.

Reconsidered my position on only keeping one tank ... 20 gallon long in the works to serve as a quarantine/hospital tank for fish and holding tank for plants. Should be up and running within the next few weeks. It'll be nice to be able to keep more than seven or eight plant species again.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Flooded the 20 gallon long tonight. 

Still need to add three more substrate cups and get the CO2 hooked up. 

For CO2, I'll start out with a ceramic diffuser on the lower middle of the back glass and see how that does.

Water is 100% RO. Will reconstitute with MgSO4 and CaSO4 to 3 dGH at approximately 4:1 Ca:Mg.

The lights are 14 watt CFL (5000K). Average PAR is 52 at the tops of the cups. Will probably add a third light.

Then it will be time to order some plants.


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## Kayak83 (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm in love with the planted wall!


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice! I really like those 5000K CFLs. Ran two over a 20H for probably a year

What's the plant plan for the 20, experiment, farm?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Kayak83 said:


> I'm in love with the planted wall!


Planted walls are a must in traditional Dutch style! Eventually, I will moss the back again and the sides as well.



burr740 said:


> Nice! I really like those 5000K CFLs. Ran two over a 20H for probably a year
> 
> What's the plant plan for the 20, experiment, farm?


I found a thread from several years ago where you were using the CFLs...that's where I saw the idea of using the brooder lamps. Three will be good I think for the 20 long. With two there's a bit too much variance in PAR across cups: 40 at the lowest, 66 at the highest. A third lamp should even it out.

I am liking the look of the 5000Ks. Nicer than the 6500Ks and the 2700Ks that I used to run over the Spec Vs.

Eventually, the 20 will transition to a farm/species holding tank, but for now it will be a test bed, with the aim of sorting out some of the issues in the 32 like figuring out the right dosing and dialing in the reconstitution of the RO. I realize that different light, substrate, filtration and CO2 diffusion methods complicate this objective, but I wanted to keep this tank cheap, easy and highly controllable. Plus, I'd eventually like to go with sand in the Dutch, so wanted some experience growing in inert substrate. At the end of the day, I think I'll still be able to glean some insight into what's going on in the Dutch.

Haven't decided on a plant list yet, but will keep a mix, some easy ones and some known to be picky that I've been wanting to try, about eight species total.

I'm a little concerned that CO2 could be a challenge with the sponge filters, but I know Barr uses them successfully in 20 longs with diffuser discs, so worth a shot.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Haven't been messing with scaping much these days, just focusing on learning to grow nice plants. Doesn't make for pretty photos, so no full tank shots or anything. But figured I'd do an update on the back wall plantings to keep the thread alive.

I planted these back in March (http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10049626-post61.html), and they've finally really filled out, almost to the point of needing to be thinned for the first time. Only the mini bolbitis did not make it. 









Left to right: India fern, Mini Trident, Java moss

These cover the back wall nicely enough in this small tank, to where I am reconsidering the need for a back moss wall. Might end up mossing just the sides and keep the individual trellises on the back.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Boy that looks great, gonna add some great depth too. I dont think you really need to moss the rest of the back. Probably couldnt even see it with plants.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Finally said good riddance to the old Aqua Soil.

During that I somehow decided to do another moss wall, even though I hadn't planned on it.

I'll get around to laying down a new substrate, white sand this time. 

For now it's a holding tank with moderate light, low CO2, and very low ferts. Been super busy between work and kids. Trying to keep growth manageable until I'm ready.

Have some ideas though. Looking forward to scaping this up again.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

I was wondering what was going on with your tank, hadn't seen an update for awhile. 

Look forward to seeing the new layout.

By the way, that Blyxa looks very happy in the pots!! You might be on to something.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Greggz said:


> I was wondering what was going on with your tank, hadn't seen an update for awhile.
> 
> Look forward to seeing the new layout.
> 
> By the way, that Blyxa looks very happy in the pots!! You might be on to something.


Yes, an update was long over due. Been so busy though, I haven't had a chance to do too much other than keep it going. So there hasn't been much to update on.

Getting the Aqua Soil out was good though. I'd been wanting to that for a while. It's just too messy if you move stuff around a lot.

I've been enjoying everyone else's updates though. Your tank is looking better than ever, and that PAR meter is awesome. 

Speaking of the Blyxa, I'm surprised at how well the plants are doing with low ferts. I added 5 ppm nitrate yesterday and 1 ppm phosphate. Few drops of traces and gluc today. That's the first time I've added ferts in a month. Some plants are noticeably smaller (like the hygo compact), but everything keeps going.


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## finfan (Jun 16, 2008)

Really enjoying your thread. Amazing work.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

LRJ said:


> Getting the Aqua Soil out was good though. I'd been wanting to that for a while. It's just too messy if you move stuff around a lot.


Yeah that stuff or any active substrate scares me. I'm confused enough most of the time without having to worry about the effect the substrate is having.

Although I have seen lots of spectacular tanks with it, but as it ages problems seem to creep up.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Man you guys and your moss walls!
Fissidens or Mini Pellia would look so nice as a moss wall I'm afraid I might get tempted haha.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (Mar 18, 2017)

Looking very nice, I was curious at what this species of fern was, looked up Indian fern it was a whole different type. Thanks


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

@SKYE.__.HIGH That is India Fern, or at least that's what I bought it as. I got it from Bartohog.

Bump: Finally got the new substrate down, plain white sand. Next step will be to moss the side walls. That will happen once the back wall is ready for a trim...so pretty soon.


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## SKYE.__.HIGH (Mar 18, 2017)

*32 Gallon Semi-Dutch*



LRJ said:


> @SKYE.__.HIGH That is India Fern, or at least that's what I bought it as. I got it from Bartohog.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks a lot, I actually just pm’ed @Bartohog about ferns for sale. That’s so funny well at least I know I like that Indian fern a lot now, I will try and see if he/she has some more. May I ask, did it get long? Or did it stay fairly short? 

Bye the way, love your scaping, nice layout of plants and beautiful colors. I think that moss wall really adds a cool depth that other aquariums don’t get. 

Thanks, skye


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Oh boy, I like where this is going. That white sand looks sweet!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Starting to take shape nicely now, and good to see you in the planting phase.

Are you planning on limiting the species to those you have now? If so you are demonstrating great restraint.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

SKYE.__.HIGH said:


> Thanks a lot, I actually just pm’ed @Bartohog about ferns for sale. That’s so funny well at least I know I like that Indian fern a lot now, I will try and see if he/she has some more. May I ask, did it get long? Or did it stay fairly short?
> 
> Bye the way, love your scaping, nice layout of plants and beautiful colors. I think that moss wall really adds a cool depth that other aquariums don’t get.
> 
> Thanks, skye


Thank you! The India fern is actually the plant in the left foreground in the fts above. The longest leaves you see there are about 3", and that's about as long as I've seen them get. It really is a nice fern for smaller tanks. I bet bartohog has some. If not, PM me.



burr740 said:


> Oh boy, I like where this is going. That white sand looks sweet!


Thanks, man. It's a big improvement over the aquasoil. Much nicer to work with.



Greggz said:


> Starting to take shape nicely now, and good to see you in the planting phase.
> 
> 
> Are you planning on limiting the species to those you have now? If so you are demonstrating great restraint.


I think 6-8 species, not including the moss on the walls, is about right for this tank. I'm going to try to stay within that limit. Dutch rules say 6. There are currently 7.

As to particular species though, the ones in there now are the ones that just happened to be in there. I plan on rotating different species through to create different scapes. I have a 20 gallon long that's basically a species holding tank (pictured below). I'd like to add some crypts to this collection to rotate through the foreground and midground positions, e.g., green gecko, beckettii petchii, and parva. Also would like to try Ammania gracilis or senegalensis as a focal group. Actually, there are tons of plants I'd like to try.

(left to right: Bacopa caroliniana Red, Ludwigia glandulosa, AR variegated, Hemianthus glomeratus, AR rosaefolia)


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Fwiw my 2017 entry had 14 species, not counting the moss log, moss wall, and the two plants on the moss wall (buces and pennywort). 

What are you dosing the AR variegated? They look great


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Fwiw my 2017 entry had 14 species, not counting the moss log, moss wall, and the two plants on the moss wall (buces and pennywort).
> 
> What are you dosing the AR variegated? They look great


That's good to know. I was wondering about additional back wall plantings and moss logs. Your tank has that real nice front to back depth too, so I think it can handle a few extra species above the rule of thumb.

The AR variegated doesn't get much in terms of dosing. I have a few O+ balls inside of a gel capsule at the bottom of the cup. Water column dosing is very light. About once or twice a month I'll hit it with about a half EI dose of NPK (dry dosed in the form of KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4), traces and gluc. About every 2-3 weeks I do a 100% water change, approximately 50:50 RO:tap. PAR is 70-80 at the tops of the cups. CO2 is relatively low. Note the aquamarine drop checker. I haven't measured, but I doubt it gets even a one point pH drop. It is a nice low maintenance setup. Plants grow slowly, but with pretty decent form and color.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

LRJ said:


> @SKYE.__.HIGH That is India Fern, or at least that's what I bought it as. I got it from Bartohog.
> 
> Bump: Finally got the new substrate down, plain white sand. Next step will be to moss the side walls. That will happen once the back wall is ready for a trim...so pretty soon.
> 
> View attachment 834553


Sweet tank and the white sand really makes things stand out.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Quick photo update. Not too much has changed layout wise, mostly just plant groups filling out some. The Blyxa street will need to be replanted soon. Moved the Ludwigia sphaerocarpa out to the 20 gal. Still need to replace it with something. Added some buces in the foreground and on the side walls. Still need to moss the side walls. 14 Pygmy Corydoras in quarantine will be added soon.


_Pink Ramshorn snail on India Fern_









_Rotala rotundifolia (after photo period)_









_Street view_









_Fts_


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Monthly photo update:


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Woah, that is looking good! Very strong sense of depth, which is no small feat on a tank this size. Bet it's even stronger in person

Is the trip japan on something or is that just a well-manicured clump?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to see an update.

Nice job manicuring, everything looks just right.

Nice work as usual.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Woah, that is looking good! Very strong sense of depth, which is no small feat on a tank this size. Bet it's even stronger in person
> 
> Is the trip japan on something or is that just a well-manicured clump?





Greggz said:


> Good to see an update.
> 
> Nice job manicuring, everything looks just right.
> 
> Nice work as usual.


Thanks guys! @burr740, the trip japan is not on anything. It's the same group as back in post #146 planted in the substrate, just allowed to grow up and fill out. It actually hasn't been manicured all that much. I just tuck stray runners back into the bush every now and then and use my hand to lightly press the bush into the shape I want. The only place I use scissors is along the back wall to keep it from fusing too much with the moss wall.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*A few notes:*



I switched out the Hygrophila corymbosa 'Compact' for AR Rosaefolia and the Hydrocotyle japonica for Nymphoides 'Taiwan'. Needs to grow out and fill-in before I'll be able to tell whether I like the changes, but I already know I don't like the Rotala-Blyxa combination (see fourth bullet):







​

It's been really nice having the 20 gal to keep extra species that aren't currently being used in the main tank. Super low ferts and super low maintenance - just keeping stuff alive until needed:


































​

Apparently Amano shrimp have a taste for Nymphoides 'Taiwan'. I caught one red-handed last night munching on it. You can see the damage in the picture below. Going to supplement with blanched zucchini and see if that helps curb their appetitie:







​

No contrast between the Rotala rotundifolia and Blyxa japonica, as the Blyxa has taken on more of an orange color lately. Going to bump the ferts up (been low for a while now) and see if I can get more pink/red out of the Rotala. If that doesn't work, maybe time to swap the Blyxa for something greener (Anyone have a bunch of Dwarf Lobelia cardinalis for sale?). I've actually been considering switching places between the Blyxa and the India fern, using the fern as a street plant:






​

I'm liking this Bucephalandra 'Kir Royale'. Been considering more lately about just having buce on the sides and no moss:







​


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Good to see an update LRJ. I was wondering what was going on with the tank.

Things are looking very nice and healthy. When that Nymphoides gets going it could fill up that tank in no time. Quite a prolific grower and gets even better looking as it fills in and thickens.

That Buce is a good looking plant too. And I like the farm you created in the 20G. 

Looking forward to seeing where this goes from here.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah I like that 20L. It looks easy and peaceful.

My Blyxa in the Dutch is doing the same thing, turning golden brown. Need it to stay green!!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Good to see an update LRJ. I was wondering what was going on with the tank.
> 
> Things are looking very nice and healthy. When that Nymphoides gets going it could fill up that tank in no time. Quite a prolific grower and gets even better looking as it fills in and thickens.
> 
> ...


Thanks, Greggz. This is my first time with the Nymphoides. It's one I've admired for a while. Anxious to see whether it ends up being too big and fast for this little tank. I've seen the way it fills space in larger tanks like yours and Burr's!

Bump:


burr740 said:


> Yeah I like that 20L. It looks easy and peaceful.
> 
> My Blyxa in the Dutch is doing the same thing, turning golden brown. Need it to stay green!!


Yes, it would be great to keep it green. Any ideas?

Bump:

Alright, got them occupied. We'll see if it's enough to make them forget the Nymphoides.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

LRJ said:


> Yes, it would be great to keep it green. Any ideas?



Yeah lower the light


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I'm in love with that 20 gal haha. Great idea! I'm going to have to set one up for myself


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

MCFC said:


> I'm in love with that 20 gal haha. Great idea! I'm going to have to set one up for myself


You should! I don't know why I waited so long. It's been a game changer to be able to hold additional species on-hand, and it reduces the temptation to clutter the main tank. I got the idea from @burr740, although he actually has several such tanks I believe. 

Some of the Dutch masters use grow out/farm tanks as well. Willem and Fred van Wezel have one, pictured below: https://www.paludarium.net/aquarium/a-visit-to-fred-and-willem-van-wezel-03 (FYI, if you haven't seen this site before, there are actually a lot of good Dutch scaping articles there. Check out the "Dutch planted tank" link in the right hand navigation bar.)


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I remember seeing a grow out/farm tank a while back that @burr740 had set up and I liked it more than his main tank haha. 

I don't know what it is about yours and the cups of substrate, but I really like that look!

I originally tried setting up a farm tank for myself after seeing Joe's tank, but then I also wanted a shrimp tank. So I tried to do both... and both plants and shrimp suffered. Now it's a low maintenance high-ish tech tank with mainly swords and only a few surviving shrimp. My second attempt at a farm tank turned into a moss and trimmings holding tank, where all the moss died haha. On my recent third attempt I was just weighing the plants down on the glass bottom, which eventually would lead to the stems rotting below the weights. 

But now...




Exact same as yours! Haha !!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Goodbye Blyxa. You had a good run, but it was time for something greener.










Back to Lobelia cardinalis 'small form', the tried-and-true. Haven't had it since the early stages of going Dutch. 

Shout-out to @Maryland Guppy! I ordered these from him. He hooked it up with enough to lay down a full street, so it should be nice and filled-in in just a few weeks.










In the meantime, I'm trying to figure out what to do with the scape. In the front left, the India fern isn't contrasting well with the Val nana behind it, so either the fern group will be replaced, or I'll reduce its size (that needs to happen either way) and slide something lighter colored in between it and the val. 

I'm not sure what to do off to the right of the Nymphoides either. I stuck some Blyxa back there for now, but I doubt it will stay. Probably need something taller for a midground effect. May just try continuing the Nymphoides down along the side.

Here's how things are at the moment. Don't mind the Rotala. I chopped the tops off to propagate more stems, and they're just growing back. Once they reach the surface again I'll top and replant.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Resurrected the old Spec V as a low tech holding tank for ferns and buces. Gateway to another 20 long ... or a bigger big tank.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Progress has been very slow since the summer. Things got really busy between work and family. But I did manage to finally get the side moss walls up. Went with SS panels, same as the back wall. Plastic mesh and zip ties, couple extra inches at the bottom of the panel to stick in the substrate, and one suction cup at the top to hold it to the glass. Nice thing about SS for a small tank like this is the low profile (see the overhead shot).

































Not much of a layout going right now, but that's next up on the agenda. Currently fighting some bba on the substrate near the front glass. You can sort of see it in the pic at the front right corner. Hoping I can eventually get the tank rolling well enough that it surrenders. 

One other item of note, one of the canisters broke during a water change. I think it's fixable, but I haven't had the time yet. Interestingly though, I have noticed much difference only running one. It's been about a month.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

LRJ said:


> Progress has been very slow since the summer. Things got really busy between work and family. But I did manage to finally get the side moss walls up. Went with SS panels, same as the back wall. Plastic mesh and zip ties, couple extra inches at the bottom of the panel to stick in the substrate, and one suction cup at the top to hold it to the glass. Nice thing about SS for a small tank like this is the low profile (see the overhead shot).
> 
> View attachment 872711
> 
> ...




Love the moss walls... is the last pic after a bit of growth or was it soon after you added them?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

vvDO said:


> Love the moss walls... is the last pic after a bit of growth or was it soon after you added them?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks. That is a little over a month of growth. May be kind of tough to see, but if you look closely at that first picture, the initial moss layer is just single strands laid out side-by-side.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Yeah those moss sides are sweet, makes all the difference in the world. If its like mine you'll notice the sides grow 3x faster than the back.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

That's awesome. Can't wait to see it fill out. May have to try that in my BioCube.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

Those walls look really good!! 

What kind of moss did you use?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

MCFC said:


> Those walls look really good!!
> 
> What kind of moss did you use?
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of moss it is. I bought it from a third party online seller as java moss, but I'm almost sure it's not, as it doesn't cling to anything. Would be great to get an ID on it at some point, if for no other reason than to feel more comfortable selling it. Every thinning produces bags of the stuff.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

LRJ said:


> Unfortunately, I don't know what kind of moss it is. I bought it from a third party online seller as java moss, but I'm almost sure it's not, as it doesn't cling to anything. Would be great to get an ID on it at some point, if for no other reason than to feel more comfortable selling it. Every thinning produces bags of the stuff.




Any chance you can get some really close up pics showing the branching pattern and “leaves”?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

MCFC said:


> Any chance you can get some really close up pics showing the branching pattern and “leaves”?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good idea. I probably can. I'll see if I can get some over the Thanksgiving holiday.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

I'm sold. I have to get my craft engineering on the weekend.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

@MCFC These are the best close up shots I could get of the moss. Any idea what kind it is?


































Thanksgiving day fts, post trim


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

I asked the most knowledgeable moss expert I know and she thought it looked like willow moss. There are two types: 



My guess is you've got the mini version. Does that seem right to you?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

MCFC said:


> I asked the most knowledgeable moss expert I know and she thought it looked like willow moss. There are two types:
> 
> 
> 
> My guess is you've got the mini version. Does that seem right to you?


Man, thank you! I have no idea if that's what it is, but seems plausible. Looks similar to my (untrained) eyes. 

I appreciate you going out of your way to get the ID! I wish I could send you some plants as a token of appreciation, but not sure how feasible that is to ship into Canada. 

Your tank is looking great btw.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

LRJ said:


> Man, thank you! I have no idea if that's what it is, but seems plausible. Looks similar to my (untrained) eyes.
> 
> I appreciate you going out of your way to get the ID! I wish I could send you some plants as a token of appreciation, but not sure how feasible that is to ship into Canada.
> 
> Your tank is looking great btw.


No problem! I spoke a bit early saying there were only two types. Turns out there are at least a handful of types with slightly different growth patterns. I'm still pretty sure mini willow is the most likely culprit though. 

Ya, shipping across the border is a pain and doesn't look like it's worth it, unfortunately. The thought is very much appreciated though! 

And thanks for the compliment!! :grin2:

I still think your tank is one of the nicest on here. "Simple" but still visually stunning!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Update next week


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Been a while since I've done a proper update. Here it goes...

Will soon be adding 14 Corydoras habrosus and 9 Pseudomugil gertrudae to the tank. These fish have been in quarantine (went ahead replaced the 5 gal Spec V with another 20 gal long) for about 3 weeks now, doing well and starting to get some color. The Pseudomugil swim mainly at the surface, so they should bring some nice activity to the upper third of the tank.

































As for the main tank, the side moss walls are working out well. I like the depth they bring to the tank and the way they help hide equipment. So far maintenance hasn't been too bad. I've trimmed them once, and they're about due now for a second. To trim I remove the entire panel, hold it with the moss hanging down, trim to the desired length and then spray a hose through the back to remove loose bits. I imagine that at some point, I will have to remove all the moss and start over fresh. I've done this three or four times with the two back panels, and it takes about half an hour per 12" x 18" panel.

Still running one canister ever since the other one broke during a water change, and have no plans of switching back to two. One overpowered canister seems to be enough for this tank. Plus flow is more laminar with just the one, and there are fewer dead spots. The extra space under the stand means that at some point I can finally move the CO2 equipment under there and finish the cabinet out with a front door and sides.

Swapped a Spectralux 3000k bulb in place of one of the Wavepoint Ultra Growth Waves in the t5 fixture. The look is warmer now, seems to have more of the authentic Dutch style look, which I like. Back to front is currently: Giesemann Aquaflora, Spectralux 3000, Wavepoint Ultra Growth Wave, ATI Aquablue Special, Giesemann Midday, Giesemann Aquaflora. About 100 PAR at the substrate. I also picked up a PowerVeg 633 but haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

Been messing around with ferts a bit, trying to achieve a good balance in the tank, but still not rolling my own...yet. A couple months ago I tried increasing CSM+B to alleviate a few apparent deficiencies, and the tank went into a minor tailspin. Stippling and white spotting on Lobelia cardinalis, severe interveinal chlorosis on Hydrocotyle leucocephala, leaves on Nymphaea santarem not wanting to open, some Rotala rotundifolia with reduced stem size and stunting, increased BBA on the substrate. Clearly an imbalance of something, but who knows what... So I switched back to dosing relatively lean again, and plants have responded well. Not perfect growth by any means, but presentable. This has been my regimen for a little over a month:

Sunday: 50% water change with 50:50 RO:tap then add back 9.5 ppm Ca, 4.6 ppm NO3, 1.1 ppm PO4, 4.9 ppm K
Monday: 0.07 ppm Fe from Flourish Comprehensive and 0.09 ppm Fe from Flourish Iron
Tuesday: 2.5 ml Flourish Trace (half the recommended dose)
Wednesday: 4.6 ppm NO3, 1.1 ppm PO4, 4.9 ppm K
Thursday: 0.07 ppm Fe from Flourish Comprehensive and 0.09 ppm Fe from Flourish Iron
Friday: 2.5 ml Flourish Trace (half the recommended dose)
Saturday: No dose

Probably will stick with these levels for another few weeks, and then inch up slowly to see how things respond.

Here are some pics of the current layout. Rotala group still needs to be fattened up, and I'd like to try a carpet or mound of the Pearlweed over in the front right corner.


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## lab_fly (May 6, 2018)

Everything looks so healthy. I'm jealous.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

*Moss wall dangers?*

Close call today while attempting to trim the moss walls. I had just pulled one of the side walls out of the tank to trim it, when I noticed within seconds that three of the ember tetras - those closest to the wall - were going belly-up! Suspecting CO2, I quickly transferred the affected fish to a non-CO2 quarantine tank. They're currently still swimming funny, but looks like they might make it. 

So what happened?

There were tons of bubbles clinging all throughout the moss. I assumed these were oxygen bubbles, but maybe the moss walls were actually catching and holding micro CO2 bubbles. When I removed the moss wall, did these bubbles suddenly release into the water column at once and gas one side of the tank? Alternatively, about two inches of the moss wall structure sits below the substrate to hold the wall in place. The substrate along the wall is noticeably darker, and circulation in the substrate near the wall is likely poor. When I pulled the wall, did I release toxic anaerobic gas pockets? CO2 seems the more likely culprit. 

To be safe, I have cut off the CO2 to the tank and will wait to trim the remaining walls until this evening when the CO2 concentration has had a chance to diminish.

One other note about the moss walls. No matter how hard I try, I cannot keep other plants from colonizing the tops of the walls. This is with me picking fragments out of the tops of the walls every evening. At some point, they just start coming in faster than I can keep up with.


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

LRJ said:


> Close call today while attempting to trim the moss walls. I had just pulled one of the side walls out of the tank to trim it, when I noticed within seconds that three of the ember tetras - those closest to the wall - were going belly-up! Suspecting CO2, I quickly transferred the affected fish to a non-CO2 quarantine tank. They're currently still swimming funny, but looks like they might make it.
> 
> So what happened?
> 
> View attachment 877489



Alternate scenario...

I bought ember tetras a few days ago at a LFS that I go to very often and he lets me net out the fish. I netted about 8-9 ember tetras and when I looked into the container a few of them were belly up and some were swimming funny... so I decided to toss them back into the tank and see what happened... all of them were 100% faking!! I netted more fish this time ignored them and after they were bagged were completely normal.

It’s possible you spooked them while removing the moss wall thought they were in danger and played dead?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

vvDO said:


> Alternate scenario...
> 
> I bought ember tetras a few days ago at a LFS that I go to very often and he lets me net out the fish. I netted about 8-9 ember tetras and when I looked into the container a few of them were belly up and some were swimming funny... so I decided to toss them back into the tank and see what happened... all of them were 100% faking!! I netted more fish this time ignored them and after they were bagged were completely normal.
> 
> ...


Hmm...you might be on to something. Hadn't thought of that possibility. If they were faking it though, they were really committed to the part..up at the surface gasping, slide belly up, reorient, gasping, slide belly up then stay that way...totally out of it. I was able to pick them up in my hand and transfer them to the other tank without them even moving.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

If it was the co2 bubbles caught in the moss, wouldnt those bubbles have just popped at the surface? Doubt they'd have time to dissolve in the water enough to raise the concentration that much. 

My guess is disturbing the substrate either exposed something toxic or caused a big drop in O2. Mine will occasionally start gasping at the surface during a big move around, or say a deep vac where a lot of the substrate gets overturned. Not sure exactly what happens, somebody can probably tell us...


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

burr740 said:


> If it was the co2 bubbles caught in the moss, wouldnt those bubbles have just popped at the surface? Doubt they'd have time to dissolve in the water enough to raise the concentration that much.
> 
> My guess is disturbing the substrate either exposed something toxic or caused a big drop in O2. Mine will occasionally start gasping at the surface during a big move around, or say a deep vac where a lot of the substrate gets overturned. Not sure exactly what happens, somebody can probably tell us...


I guess I was thinking that since the bubbles were so tiny and there were so many, that instead of all of them quickly going to the surface and popping, that they might have created a temporary, highly concentrated field of bubbles in the water column, capable of causing immediate harm to fish that swim through it. Lol... sounds kind of far fetched as I type it out.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

LRJ said:


> View attachment 876625


Wow, I like the layout of you tank, especially the moss walls, great layout. 

Out of curiosity, are the plant in the walls collecting detritus or are you able to clean them off fairly easily?


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Ken Keating1 said:


> Wow, I like the layout of you tank, especially the moss walls, great layout.
> 
> Out of curiosity, are the plant in the walls collecting detritus or are you able to clean them off fairly easily?


Thanks!

The plants that are intentionally planted into the moss walls, like the ferns, do not collect detritus. They stay clean on their own like plants planted in the substrate.

The moss walls themselves do capture fine particles just like anything covered in moss will do. The particles settle down into the wall, so looking from the outside it looks perfectly clean. But when you really disturb the walls, like when removing them from the tank, there will be some dust shaking out, same as what happens when you shake a piece of driftwood or rock covered in fissidens or moss. I never worry about cleaning this dust out during routine maintenance, because that happens thoroughly when the walls are trimmed. I think about this maintenance in the same way that I view cleaning the filter.

Now larger detritus doesn't really stick around in the lower two thirds of the wall. Every now and then a piece of something will get caught and I will pick it out with tweezers. But most of the larger stuff floats to the top and lodges along the top of the wall. Every evening I spend one or two minutes with tweezers combing the tops of the walls to remove this sort of stuff. As the moss grows longer though, some plant bits slip down into the tops of the walls before I am able to get them. These eventually sprout, and from that point it's only a matter of time before the tops of the walls become covered in a mix of emergent plant growth. It's not too big of a hassle. When I trim the walls, I just cut out the top three inches of hodgepodge first and toss it, then harvest the lower portion to sell.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Well, I was able to trim the other moss panels today without further incident. Fish were fine throughout. Turned off the CO2 for 24 hours beforehand just to be safe. 

The under layers are very brown this time. Typically at this point, I will clean out all the dead moss and lay down a fresh start, but today I put them back. I'm curious to see whether they'll recover.

Side Wall Pre- vs. Post-trim










Also made some minor layout adjustments. Cleared two beaches up front for the Corydoras habrosus. Those and the Pseudomugil gertrudae will go in this week.


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

I am just amazed at the restraint you have exercised with this tank. 32 gallons is small and super difficult for a Dutch layout. If this were my tank, I'd have 40 species of plants in it. You can't do that with Dutch. That is where so many people don't exactly get it and and one reason why they (and I) do poorly with these. You have to keep your species count low in addition to the demands of focus and streets and other criteria. Good job with this one.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Ben Belton said:


> I am just amazed at the restraint you have exercised with this tank. 32 gallons is small and super difficult for a Dutch layout. If this were my tank, I'd have 40 species of plants in it. You can't do that with Dutch. That is where so many people don't exactly get it and and one reason why they (and I) do poorly with these. You have to keep your species count low in addition to the demands of focus and streets and other criteria. Good job with this one.


Thanks! I appreciate that. It hasn't been easy keeping the species count down, and I'm still technically over the number allowed for by Dutch rules if you count the moss logs. 

Having the 20 gal [STRIKE]farm tank[/STRIKE] plant bank helps a lot, but that's near capacity at this point...a few specimens of each plant, two or three species to a cup. Thanks to the generosity of the members on this forum, when I buy plants, I often end up with one more species than the number I paid for.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Update on the moss wall regrowth. 

Last update I was curious to see how the walls would recover given how brown and sparse they were at the bottom layer...now one month later, there's no question:









Time-saving lesson - no need to do a total restart on the walls every two or three trims like I had been.

The new fish I bought - Corydoras habrosus and Pseudomugil gertrudae - have been out of quarantine and in the main tank for about a month and are doing well. Maybe I'll do a video update on them.

In other news, I'm finally about to hop on that custom micro train. Stay tuned...


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Guess it's time for an overdue update. Looks like the last time I posted I was talking about micros. In case anyone is interested I did end up rolling my own ... while there were no huge differences, most plants responded favorably. Shortly after that I slowed the tank down into a holding phase, and it's been like that for several months. 

I set up this tank back in 2015 as my first planted aquarium. It transitioned over time from a nature style tree scape into, eventually, something semi-Dutch. Even though I never got it quite to where I envisioned, it has been a huge source of learning, fun and relaxation.

The point has come now however that I am able to move this journey into a larger aquarium, so this one will be shut down in the near future. Thanks to everyone who has followed along!


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## Ben Belton (Dec 12, 2008)

LRJ said:


> The point has come now however that I am able to move this journey into a larger aquarium, so this one will be shut down in the near future. Thanks to everyone who has followed along!


Hopefully you will have time to do a journal like this one. When you start it, post the new link here for those of us that don't get the read the boards as often as we would like. I might miss your new journal.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

LRJ said:


> The point has come now however that I am able to move this journey into a larger aquarium, so this one will be shut down in the near future. Thanks to everyone who has followed along!


When I started reading this, I thought you were leaving the hobby.

I was pleasantly surprised when I saw you are moving to a larger tank.

Very much looking forward to the new adventure.

What size tank??


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

This was a great tank, competition worthy I thought. Looking forward to seeing what you do next. Hope you make a journal for the new one!!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Ben Belton said:


> Hopefully you will have time to do a journal like this one. When you start it, post the new link here for those of us that don't get the read the boards as often as we would like. I might miss your new journal.





Greggz said:


> When I started reading this, I thought you were leaving the hobby.
> 
> I was pleasantly surprised when I saw you are moving to a larger tank.
> 
> ...





burr740 said:


> This was a great tank, competition worthy I thought. Looking forward to seeing what you do next. Hope you make a journal for the new one!!


Thanks everyone! I really appreciate the kind words. Here is the link to the new journal! LRJ's 125g Planted Tank


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Progress has been slow with getting the 125 finished (work and kids). I temporarily resurrected this set up to scratch the planted tank itch. It's pretty different from previous incarnations - very low fuss. Figured I'd do a quick a post.

Filtered with a Hydro sponge 3 driven by an air pump. Very little flow - no visible sway among any of the plants.

CO2 injected through a ceramic diffuser. Aqueon Quietflow 600 in the corner to provide just enough movement to help distribute CO2 - same pump I used to use for filtering my old Fluval Spec V. 

Hardy plant species. Pool filter sand with one Osmocote Plus ball under each plant. No water column ferts. Nature style trimming except on the ludwigia.

50/50 RO/tap. Water change every other week. Had a piece of glass cut for the top to limit evaporation and eliminate top-offs. 

Stocked with a mix of tetras and pseudomugil gertrudae with a male apistogramma borellii opal. Really liking the borellii - I'll definitely be stocking some of these in the 125.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

Is this the 32g? Took me what 3 years to get my 125g going. Looks nice! 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Hey @LRJ good to see you drop in!

Nice looking and interesting tank you have there. How long has it been set up?

And what's the ETA on the 125G?

Your not trying to outdo @chayos00 with the slowest build, are you??:grin2:

Bump:


chayos00 said:


> Took me what 3 years to get my 125g going. Looks nice!


LOL you must have beat me to it by a few minutes!!:grin2:


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

chayos00 said:


> Is this the 32g? Took me what 3 years to get my 125g going. Looks nice!
> 
> Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


Yes, this is the 32 gal. The fact that both your 125 and @Hendy8888 's 90 gal took a while and turned out so well, makes me feel not too bad.



Greggz said:


> Hey @LRJ good to see you drop in!
> 
> Nice looking and interesting tank you have there. How long has it been set up?
> 
> ...


Thanks. I've been following along with everyone's' tanks here, but figured it'd been a little too long since I posted something. 

This has been set up since late September. I had torn it down completely and posted it for sale locally, but then decided to set it back up when the progress on the 125 slowed to a crawl. Now I'm glad I didn't sell it. 

I re-purposed the douglas fir from the old Dutch style enclosure to build a wall-mounted shelf with stainless steel supports that matches the stand. The ATI fixture is suspended from that now. 

Even once I tear it back down, I'll probably just hold on to it. It's just a nice, sleek, mid size set up that's highly adaptable and can be broken down and set back up in a hurry.

Lol, my internal deadline for the 125 is late July. My wife and I are expecting our third child in August, so either I get it set up by then, or else I might really beat @chayos00's record


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

If you have ever upsized, and then downsized, it makes it easier to appreciate the value of smaller tanks. If you have a really special tank, don't be afraid to leave it in the basement or garage until you can use it again.

I left my black silicon 16 gallon bowfront unused after my last marine tank was killed by Irene in 2011. I tried to give it away when helping my parents clear out their basement, but then I set it up up again eight years after the flood. It would have been hard to find a small tank of that size and quality, with black silicon, without paying more, plus shipping.


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

LRJ said:


> Lol, my internal deadline for the 125 is late July. My wife and I are expecting our third child in August, so either I get it set up by then, or else I might really beat @chayos00's record


Well, I got my 125g done just after my 2nd was born. So far on my 300g I'm at half a year on the polishing of the tank. Sure does suck having your time divided and not just able to focus being able to get something just knocked out and done. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

LRJ said:


> Progress has been slow with getting the 125 finished (work and kids). I temporarily resurrected this set up to scratch the planted tank itch. It's pretty different from previous incarnations - very low fuss. Figured I'd do a quick a post.
> 
> Filtered with a Hydro sponge 3 driven by an air pump. Very little flow - no visible sway among any of the plants.
> 
> ...



That's a beautiful tank. Once we move, I'm hoping to get my tanks set back up again.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Warpiper said:


> That's a beautiful tank. Once we move, I'm hoping to get my tanks set back up again.


Thanks! Make sure to get your journal going again if/when you get them set back up. Look forward to seeing some pics.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Some quick pics of the male apistogramma borellii opal I have in this tank. I've kept a couple of agassizii in the past and they were shy. Not this borellii. He's constantly patrolling the tank and watching me for food. Really cool fish. Respect to people like @Greggz who can take nice fish pics - takes both skill and patience. I don't have enough of either, so please excuse the low quality.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Always helps to start with good subject matter, so you already got that going for you.

IMO, those pics came out very, very well. It's always more difficult when they are very small like that. 

And that is a very good looking fish.....great markings and color.

One tip.....notice how you can see yourself holding the phone in the first pic. Helps to have no ambient light in the room other than tank light. It will reduce reflections like that. 

Almost forgot.....plants are looking pretty darn healthy too! Good to have you back.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Always helps to start with good subject matter, so you already got that going for you.
> 
> IMO, those pics came out very, very well. It's always more difficult when they are very small like that.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It's good to be back. And thanks for the tip! I didn't even think about that or notice the reflection until you pointed it out, but makes sense. I'll remember to cut the lights next time.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

LRJ said:


> Thanks! Make sure to get your journal going again if/when you get them set back up. Look forward to seeing some pics.


Will do. Speeding time researching tank sizes, substrates, styles..... A lot to learn. :smile2:


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Tank is still coasting along pretty well. 

It's the lowest maintenance setup I've kept. Moderate light and CO2, Osmocote balls under each plant grouping, occasional dose of Flourish Comprehensive, water change every other week with 50/50 RO-tap. That's about it. 

Plants are doing OK considering. Some algae here and there, but no major issues.

Some pics from tonight.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

That looks really nice man. The O+ and flourish comp is working great


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## Squids (Dec 24, 2019)

Looks awesome!


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Got some new plants from @burr740 today - Blyxa octandra, Hygrophila siamensis 53b, and Penthorum sedoides (all in the back left corner). Gorgeous plants. Really excited to see how they do. Otherwise not a whole lot going on with the tank aside from a few fish additions here and there. Cheers everyone.









Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Rampin' her back up


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

This tank has essentially just been existing for the past couple of years as a super hands-off afterthought. I briefly tore it down in 2020 in anticipation of completing my 125 gallon Dutch build, but then resurrected it when progress on the 125 stalled due to the pandemic and the arrival of my third child.

Fast forward...my son is now 2 years old, and while the launch of the new 125 is still suspended due to time constraints (it sits in the garage about 90% complete), I have enough time again to be more engaged with the 32 gallon.

I started prepping this summer by making upgrades to the set-up. I wanted to hook the canister filter up to replace the sponge filter that's been running on here for the past two years. However, I wanted to keep the glass lid to limit evaporation and keep fish from jumping.

I re-purposed the last of the douglas fir from this tank's previous enclosure to build a lid with openings for the filter inflow and outflow and a lip to hold the glass lid. I am very happy with the way it turned out.





























I also made some changes underneath the tank. I took a piece of white oak plywood Ieft over from the 125 build and installed a wall to hold electronic equipment. The open space on the electronics wall is where I will put a controller. I purchased a GHL ProfiLux Mini Wifi for the 125 that has been sitting in the box, so figured why not put it on this tank in the meantime. I also installed a proper mount to hold the CO2 cylinder upright and secure. Instead of a reactor like the old set-up, this time around I am using an inline diffuser, hoping this will aid filter performance and make maintenance more straightforward.










For aesthetics and to keep the kids out, I made some panels to hide the equipment under the stand. I would have loved to have used douglas fir for this, but couldn't justify spending several hundred dollars to buy a sheet when I still had extra white oak plywood leftover from the 125 build. My wife hates the two-tone look, but I don't mind it too much.










I switched the substrate over to Aqua Natural aquarium gravel. I love how easy gravel is to work with and the fact that it can be properly deep vacuumed. Surprisingly though, this stuff seems to be increasing the PH between water changes. I'm curious whether anyone else has had this experience using Aqua Natural gravel. I figured it would be inert given that it's advertised for planted tanks.

There isn't much to show in terms of the actual tank yet. I'll save tank shots for once the plants have had a chance to grow out more. The plants I'm going with are Dutch staples. Here's what's currently in the tank, although this will probably change:

vallisneria
hygrophila difformis
green myrio
crypt wendtii tropica
bacopa caroliniana
red tiger lotus
ludwigia ovalis
cardamine lyrata
hydrocotyle leucocephala
java fern mini trident
mini christmas moss
weeping moss
fissidens fontanus
The goals for this tank are:

Dutch it up!
Keep it _relatively_ low maintenance and save time where I can. Buy premade ferts and premade mix for reconstituting RODI water. Keep it closer to a medium light set-up and limit plant growth to a jog rather than a sprint.


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

Nice looking tank and sweet build! Did you have the T5 light unit already or purchase it? Seems like everything is trending to LED these days


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

rzn7z7 said:


> Nice looking tank and sweet build! Did you have the T5 light unit already or purchase it? Seems like everything is trending to LED these days


Thanks! I already had the T5 unit. Actually, when I first set this tank up back in 2015 I originally ran two EcoTech Radions for the first year, then purchased the ATI fixture in 2016 and have been running that since. It seems like LEDs keep getting better and better but I still prefer the look of the T5s. If I was choosing lighting for this tank right now, I'd still go with T5, either the same ATI fixture, or build a custom hood with a dimmable retrofit kit.


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## LRJ (Jul 31, 2014)

Leaving town in a couple days and won't be back until the new year. Tank won't receive any ferts or feeding while I'm gone. Here's the state of the tank after today's water change. I'll post another one when I get back for growth comparison.


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