# Does a canister have to be below the tank?



## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

So I have this 20 gallon long on my kitchen counter top right now, it has this ugly HOB bio wheel filter mounted on the side. It looks terrible. I just got a aquaclear 50 to replace the bio wheel, I'm letting the aquaclear build some bacteria before I remove the bio wheel completely. The aquaclear has a smaller profile but I don't know if I like it any better. I can't put the filters on the back on the tank because I'm already short on counter top space and don't want to move the tank any closer to the edge. Now there is a cabinet below the tank to the left but I'm not going to drill out my new counter top. The only other thing I can do is put a canister filter in the cabinet above and run the plumbing down the backside of the cabinet into the tank. Can this be done? I've heard external canisters have to go below the aquarium, why is that?


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

Have you ever tried getting a proper, continuous water siphoning action by having/holding the end of the suction hose higher than the top of the water level ?
That's why.


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## jrman83 (Nov 22, 2010)

Right. The pump returns water, not suck it out of the tank. Canisters rely on natural siphoning to fill the canister.

I have to say that I have never seen an aquarium on a kitchen counter unless it was a Betta in a bowl.


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## Korya (Sep 22, 2013)

Why could you put a canister where the dog bowl is? Hide it under a side table and put a long table cloth over it. Then you would only have hoses going up the side. Although if you do that make sure to cover the hoses with material or something because they would be near the window and would probable develop algae.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

The last suggestion is one I would really look at before passing. I find I can sneak in a tank in places where they might not go IF I can convince my wife that it won't look too bad or if it serves another purpose. The idea of a stand at the counter end might work. 
And then maybe a bit more kitchen storage might be good? A storage unit with closed doors on the bottom for the canister and open above to add storage for dishes, maybe? A small desk, just big enough to cover the canister with a riser made of wood which covers the tubes as well as supports a small light for the "desk"? A pegboard to display kids pictures and "art" that just happens to be hollow space to hide tubing.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

jrman83 said:


> Right. The pump returns water, not suck it out of the tank. Canisters rely on natural siphoning to fill the canister.
> 
> I have to say that I have never seen an aquarium on a kitchen counter unless it was a Betta in a bowl.


Haha if only you could see the rest of my kitchen...


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Korya and plantedrich very good ideas, i would of never thought of that.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Sometimes when the fishroom is full of tanks and you just have to have another, you get desperate and the only place left is next to the dining room table? 
Been there, done that and my wife sure needed another place to set some flowers! 

Hope it works as well for you!


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

A possible solution, Zoo Med has launched their line of aquarium canister filter filters, will tuck away nicely on the counter behind the tank.
I`m currently testing the Nano 30 on a 15 gallon long ( same foot print of a 20 gallon but shorter) & it`s plenty for that tank,too soon to review it quality & reliability, but so far I`m impressed- power & operating noise.
http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=376&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=3&Sear




Regards


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## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

Could use internal or sponge filters instead.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

First I had to see if such a thing exists.. In a "form" it does..
http://www.aquaone.co.uk/documents/Aquastyle850-980T_instructions_lowres_new_000.pdf

Starting from that and thinking outside the box a bit.. an option (i'll start by saying it isn't exactly a great one ) is use a canister filter but reverse the hoses and add a pump in the aquarium.. This will pump water up to the tank (coming in the top now) and then return through the bottom..
Couple of things 1)sizing the pump is interesting 2)Eheim like cans are sealed.. so apump will more than likely pressurize the tank slightly so your return "should be" more than gravity fed (and you have the pump pressure) .. how much of a spray??? Well this is DIY and out of the box..

Small "fountain" pumps come to mind.. 

As to off the shelf. I'd bet it is out there.. somewhere.......but most seem "open top" drip types.. 

AS to next to it..seems no problem.. w a few niggles.. like the priming thing...
my canister is next to my tank w/ the top about 1" below the water line.. no problems there..

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141858


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

I currently have a ZooMed 501 on one of my cubes and it sits right behind the tank.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

jeffkrol said:


> First I had to see if such a thing exists.. In a "form" it does..
> http://www.aquaone.co.uk/documents/Aquastyle850-980T_instructions_lowres_new_000.pdf
> 
> Starting from that and thinking outside the box a bit.. an option (i'll start by saying it isn't exactly a great one ) is use a canister filter but reverse the hoses and add a pump in the aquarium.. This will pump water up to the tank (coming in the top now) and then return through the bottom..
> ...


Thanks for the info, that aquaone filter is a trip. Sounds like if I want a canister above the aquarium I'm going to have to do some modifications to it.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

PlantedRich said:


> Sometimes when the fishroom is full of tanks and you just have to have another, you get desperate and the only place left is next to the dining room table?
> Been there, done that and my wife sure needed another place to set some flowers!
> 
> Hope it works as well for you!


I don't have a fishroom more like a fishhouse. hahaha I actually have 3 aquariums on my kitchen counter top! When I had my counter top redone I told the guys I hired that I was planning on putting around 1000lbs of extra weight on it so they added a lot of extra support. As a matter of fact I also have one on the dining room table:biggrin:. My philosophy is I pay all the bills I get to put tanks where I see fit.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I would hesitate before going into the mods required for a canister above rather than below. I find quite a bit of interest in setting them up different but none on the market that I have seen. That indicates to me that there are larger problems involved than we might first think. My bet is that if there was an easy way to do it, there would be lots more people doing it? 
I like the small filter in back if you can find one large enough to do a good job and still fit but meanwhile my thinking still goes with using one at the end. How's the wood working DIY situation? 
I might suggest a "stand" of sorts that would set over the dog bowls with a canister on a shelf just above that and a top for some other purpose. That might set the top of the canister just a bit below the tank top where it would work and the tubing/pipes would not be a big problem. Maybe move the tank to the counter top edge so that the intake/output could go directly into the tank??


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## AGUILAR3 (Jun 22, 2013)

If you don't mind putting a water pump inside the tank, build yourself a gravity fed filter using a 2-3g bucket and 10x's the media any canister filter could possibly hold. With a nice big water pump and the use of a plastic inline ball valve to reduce flow, you can filter a 20g one day and a 125g the next.


Check out the filter I built for my tub pond. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showpost.php?p=5890658&postcount=62


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> I find quite a bit of interest in setting them up different but none on the market that I have seen. That indicates to me that there are larger problems involved than we might first think. My bet is that if there was an easy way to do it, there would be lots more people doing it?


Personally.. it probably more the economics and liability and "standard procedure" than the engineering.. From toilets to fountains, to municipal water systems you put water "over your head" that is not a problem.. As to control.. well I ca nsee more people screaming "liability" than w/ the current fairly fail safe methods.. W an old canister and a cheap "fountain pump" and maybe one valve it is fairly easy to prototype something.

Marketing is a funny thing..


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Dude, put a powerhead with a sponge on the intake in there and call it a day.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

jeffkrol said:


> Personally.. it probably more the economics and liability and "standard procedure" than the engineering.. From toilets to fountains, to municipal water systems you put water "over your head" that is not a problem.. As to control.. well I ca nsee more people screaming "liability" than w/ the current fairly fail safe methods.. W an old canister and a cheap "fountain pump" and maybe one valve it is fairly easy to prototype something.
> 
> Marketing is a funny thing..


If something is cheap, easy and effective , I usually find everybody wants to do it. How many are doing this?

It's like the fabled DIY canister filter. The idea is always there but few do it. And even fewer are glad they did.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

PlantedRich said:


> I would hesitate before going into the mods required for a canister above rather than below. I find quite a bit of interest in setting them up different but none on the market that I have seen. That indicates to me that there are larger problems involved than we might first think. My bet is that if there was an easy way to do it, there would be lots more people doing it?
> I like the small filter in back if you can find one large enough to do a good job and still fit but meanwhile my thinking still goes with using one at the end. How's the wood working DIY situation?
> I might suggest a "stand" of sorts that would set over the dog bowls with a canister on a shelf just above that and a top for some other purpose. That might set the top of the canister just a bit below the tank top where it would work and the tubing/pipes would not be a big problem. Maybe move the tank to the counter top edge so that the intake/output could go directly into the tank??


I will probably put a canister on a stand over the dog bowl and see how that goes. As far as the wood work I paid a professional to do it. I had a remodel crew upgrade my kitchen and asked them to reinforce the counter top to hold extra weight. They just added some extra metal brackets and some 2x4's, it seems to be holding just fine. I have the 20 gallon long and two 10 gallons they are spread out pretty far apart I'm guessing around 400 pounds total.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> If something is cheap, easy and effective , I usually find everybody wants to do it. How many are doing this?
> 
> It's like the fabled DIY canister filter. The idea is always there but few do it. And even fewer are glad they did.


Put a cover on it and you have a "canister"..


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

PlantedRich said:


> If something is cheap, easy and effective , I usually find everybody wants to do it..


That is a whole course in economics and psychology.. 

Personally it is throwing "electricity" into your tank that is the real issue..and using a pump that "pulls" and primes (keeping electricity and bulk out of your tank) is not "cheap" compared to simple impeller type pumps..

inside.. no problem.. Cheap is met..
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Beckett-130-GPH-Submersible-Fountain-Pump-M130HD/100164116


> Maximum flow rate of 130 GPH at a 1 ft. lift
> Lift capability of up to 4 ft.


not sure of the "derating" by head height though....but like you said, and I as well, doing it in an air tight canister system.. is tricky (cost/benefit/demand/structure)I suspect..

Lets be a bit realistic here. Who thinks "I want 20lbs of water over my fish tank maybe on top of my lights.. .. or in a kitchen cabinet..Realistically the demand is not enough to disturb the status quo...

On a side note.. why aren't all canister pumps self priming??? I'm sure many are tired of sucking fish water.. or cheap (ever price an Ehiem primer) little piston type mechanical primers??
Size.. that is probably it main criteria... and if it isn't broke.....


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

jeffkrol said:


> Put a cover on it and you have a "canister"..


If the Op finds a aqua clear a bit distracting, what would he think of this suggestion?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

my vote - Zoo med on counter top next to the tank & some creative mods on a appropriate cookie jar = tidy, pretty & effective filtration .Heck even the box it comes in can be nicely wrapped & fit over the filter lol.
Filter measures9.5 tall x 4.75 D x 7.875 W


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## Tihsho (Oct 10, 2007)

I currently don't have any issues with my ZooMed 501 sitting behind the tank. I definitely would go for it as a concealed option over a hang on back or bulky internal.


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

charlie 1 said:


> my vote - Zoo med on counter top next to the tank & some creative mods on a appropriate cookie jar = tidy, pretty & effective filtration .Heck even the box it comes in can be nicely wrapped & fit over the filter lol.
> Filter measures9.5 tall x 4.75 D x 7.875 W


Plus if you buy it now from Amazon it`s 75.00:icon_mrgr, waiting for my cheque from Zoo Med:icon_bigg


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

greaser84 said:


> I will probably put a canister on a stand over the dog bowl and see how that goes. As far as the wood work I paid a professional to do it. I had a remodel crew upgrade my kitchen and asked them to reinforce the counter top to hold extra weight. They just added some extra metal brackets and some 2x4's, it seems to be holding just fine. I have the 20 gallon long and two 10 gallons they are spread out pretty far apart I'm guessing around 400 pounds total.


Countertops are one of those great things that we never think about as examples of the weight a DIY stand might hold. They are often built with just thin plywood or even particle board yet they will stand up to 20-50 years even with gorilla types climbing on them. I've often stood on countertops to work. You just have to pick where you stand! fish tanks spread the weight out so well that you would really have to have a tall one to get close to the worry stage.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

PlantedRich said:


> Countertops are one of those great things that we never think about as examples of the weight a DIY stand might hold. They are often built with just thin plywood or even particle board yet they will stand up to 20-50 years even with gorilla types climbing on them. I've often stood on countertops to work. You just have to pick where you stand! fish tanks spread the weight out so well that you would really have to have a tall one to get close to the worry stage.


Counter tops definitely save you money on stands. Another thing I like about my kitchen tanks is that water changes are a breeze, being that my RO system and drain is a foot away! The downside is you lose space in the kitchen but my roomate doesn't care he's on 4 legs and can't cook anyways. hahaha


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I have had as many as 4 tanks, 10-15 gallons on a counter top. I built the counter, so I know there are enough supports under there for that amount of tanks. 
More tanks? Larger tanks? I am not sure I would try anything like a 40-45 gallon, though one of them would fit. 

Mine are build of plywood verticals and particle board counter tops. I caulked the joint in the countertop, so there is no water touching the particle board, even if a tank overflows.


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## iNinja (Apr 7, 2014)

you could do something like this: http://youtu.be/YFcioRUCa6c

but like jeff said, i would have some kind of cover on it to prevent a lot of humidity inside a cabinet and causing it to rot or grow mold.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

iNinja said:


> you could do something like this: http://youtu.be/YFcioRUCa6c
> 
> but like jeff said, i would have some kind of cover on it to prevent a lot of humidity inside a cabinet and causing it to rot or grow mold.


That's pretty cool ninja thanks.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

greaser84 said:


> That's pretty cool ninja thanks.


The ideas are often cool but then I begin to study a bit to see how well thought out the project might be. When I saw the cost estimate, I got skeptical. Last time I bought diffuser it was $12, so if we accept a powerhead at $15 and tray at $4, that leaves very little for tubing, bulkhead fittings, zip-ties and media. Maybe he is not really too close on cost but we can skip over that. 
Then he got into using a heater lying flat and buried under the media. Maybe he might need to read the directions first. Then when I saw the trouble he had drilling the holes, I decided he was not up to instructor level yet. I quit when he got around to speaking of 3X1 as that really shows a lack of experience that I would not want to follow too far. 

Might work but I would want to use some real caution when planning.


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## Steve002 (Feb 7, 2014)

Theoretically it would work as long as 1) you could eliminate the air from the lines and canister (not an easy proposition) and 2) you could keep any air from entering the system. 
Another possibility is the use of an in tank corner filter.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

PlantedRich said:


> The ideas are often cool but then I begin to study a bit to see how well thought out the project might be. When I saw the cost estimate, I got skeptical. Last time I bought diffuser it was $12, so if we accept a powerhead at $15 and tray at $4, that leaves very little for tubing, bulkhead fittings, zip-ties and media. Maybe he is not really too close on cost but we can skip over that.
> Then he got into using a heater lying flat and buried under the media. Maybe he might need to read the directions first. Then when I saw the trouble he had drilling the holes, I decided he was not up to instructor level yet. I quit when he got around to speaking of 3X1 as that really shows a lack of experience that I would not want to follow too far.
> 
> Might work but I would want to use some real caution when planning.


No doubt, I wouldn't be comfortable doing something like that anyways, I just thought it was interesting idea. I might considered that if the aquarium was outside hahaha. I agree putting the heater up there is asking for trouble, I'd leave that in the tank. My plan is to get a canister and a stand and place it over the dog bowl then run the plumbing up to the aquarium. I'm actually going to move Chopper's food/water bowl I'm always worried about spilling tank water in it anyways. Now I just need to figure out what canister I want...


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

I like interesting ideas and think about lots of them. But then when it gets over into that area where things might overflow, I like to go with things that are tried and stood the test of time. I like the idea of the small canisters that I see now and then but I've not gotten into how well they work. The Cascade 1000 I had was semi-flat and might be a good shape to fit well on a narrow shelf but then it also had some really suspect things that I was glad to sell and move on down the road. 
Chopper didn't get the name for chewing too much? :icon_twis


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Just for fun.. 

















http://www.iceshanty.com/ice_fishing/index.php?topic=233241.0
http://www.fishyou.com/filter-overhead.php


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## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

I can't tell if your counter top is laminate or stone, it looks like the first. If it's one continuous piece, you could always find another and store it (assuming you have more than one counter top and they match), shorten the top drawer (again, good to find another one if you can to store) and you may have an easy, clean solution for a canister in the bottom cabinet. I know that is likely overkill but just an idea, I plan to do the same, however, it would be a 36 in counter top which is a bit easier to deal with.

Another idea is moving the filters to the back and possibly planting them. I find HOB's don't look bad when on the back of the tank and should have enough flow still assuming you keep them both. 

Another challenging idea that is pretty cool is an internal sump in back but you have to rip the tank down. There are more and more off the shelf varieties so maybe wait until you rescape and either swap the tank, or DIY then. 

The Zoo Med type filters work fine at tank level and are actually supposed to be at tank level. However, you likely need two and if you can't put them behind the tank, they are just as ugly as HOB's, IMO.



Now for the simple solution. Put a canister on the side and throw it in a nice stainless steal trash can. You can get creative on the tubing as well. Then you have something that isn't going to be an eye sore, easy to service, without modding your tank or your counter and call it a day.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I would put the canister filter underneath. You don't have to go through the counter top. Go through the wall (the side that says ugly) You should be able to make a hole in the sheetrock, fish the lines through and go through the wall and side of the cabinet down below. I would start in the cabinet. Cut an opening and then you can make sure there is nothing in the wall in the way. If there is, it's an easy patch as it's inside the cabinet. You should be able to find something fairly easily to line the hole and make it look professional. Drywall is a fairly easy patch down the line.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Kubla said:


> I would put the canister filter underneath. You don't have to go through the counter top. Go through the wall .


BEST answer yet..BUT still got a possible problem.. Only spec I've heard for a canister is that "head height" is 48" (Ability to pump water up)..just something to keep in mind..
Considering most filters shouldn't be a problem..

Returning to my obsession.... 
http://www.aquaticquotient.com/forum/showthread.php/103553-DIY-super-duper-overhead-filter



> Bought a overhead filter, not happy with the performance, decide to make it into a Super-Duper filter!


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## Stone454 (Jun 1, 2013)

I have a sunsun HW 505B 5 stage, it has uv, decent flow and the pump actually goes into the tank the canister is just the media and the uv bulb I have been happy with this filter, it's a breeze to prime lol kind of fooled me the first time it was so easy......I think if you really wanted to you could get some sort of inline/fountian pump put it on the bottom of the intake t boost the canisters pump if need be


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

greaser84 said:


> The only other thing I can do is put a canister filter in the cabinet above and run the plumbing down the backside of the cabinet into the tank. Can this be done?


Yes. You don't have to do any modifications for that. Just place the canister above the tank and run the tubes into the tank.



greaser84 said:


> I've heard external canisters have to go below the aquarium, why is that?


Physics-wise there's no difference where the canister is located. Just don't put it too far below the tank (water pressure might make it leak _out_ through the seals) or too far above the tank (suction created by water columns in the tubes might make air to leak _in_ through the seals).

However, upper placement of the canister leads to a lot of inconveniences. The canister will drain itself every time the water level in the tank drops below one of the nozzles (outflow typically) during water changes. If you have water-lock valves on the tubes, then just the tubes will drain.

Once it is drained (even if it is just the tubes), re-starting such canister is a major pain since you have to pull the water up the intake pipe. Meanwhile, canisters placed below the tank almost start themselves.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

SURE now I have another thing to ponder.. 
Anyways, manuf. don't think they are designed for "above water level" use...



> For canisters, Eheim says the top of the filter must be below the water level.





> I bought a filstar xp3 a few months ago and set it up last night. I didn't realize the canister needs to sit a minimum of 24" under the water line when I bought this.
> 
> I have a 110 gallon stock tank filled halfway. I can't safely elevate this tank, so it needs to stay on the floor. The top of the canister is about 3 - 4"
> above the waterline. I was able to prime the canister (very difficult), and it appears to work properly. I'm really nervous about stressing the motor over
> ...


http://www.turtleforum.com/forum/upload/?showtopic=120475


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## husonfirst (Sep 12, 2009)

What about running an Eheim at the same level as the tank. The water line would be slightly above the top of the Eheim. Would that work? Anyone have experience doing this?


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## charlie 1 (Oct 22, 2006)

husonfirst said:


> What about running an Eheim at the same level as the tank. The water line would be slightly above the top of the Eheim. Would that work? Anyone have experience doing this?


I have done it with a 2213, was about 4 inches below the water line, only issue I experienced was priming it, this I resolved with a Maxi Jet connected to the 2213 pick up line via 1/2 inch tubing & got the air out that way, after that worked like a charm.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

husonfirst said:


> What about running an Eheim at the same level as the tank. The water line would be slightly above the top of the Eheim. Would that work? Anyone have experience doing this?


Mines on the side of my tank...no problems..



> For canisters, Eheim says the top of the filter must be below the water level.


UNLIKE this one...


> FilStar XP Canister Filters
> 
> Before you begin
> Make sure the filter is positioned between 24" (min) and 55" (max) BELOW the water level of the aquarium.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

PlantedRich said:


> I like interesting ideas and think about lots of them. But then when it gets over into that area where things might overflow, I like to go with things that are tried and stood the test of time. I like the idea of the small canisters that I see now and then but I've not gotten into how well they work. The Cascade 1000 I had was semi-flat and might be a good shape to fit well on a narrow shelf but then it also had some really suspect things that I was glad to sell and move on down the road.
> Chopper didn't get the name for chewing too much? :icon_twis


Sorry to answer so late but chopper got his name from the type of motorcycles I ride!:icon_smil


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## mavryan (May 24, 2014)

Maybe you may want to try these two canister filter which I think is nice and yet minimal mod to your counter top, remember you want it not to be ugly.
Try Totto filter or Eheim Aquacompact, they both serve good purpose with Totto filter being a HOB canister filter and Aquacompact simply allows you to place the canister next to your tank. Try google them.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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