# biofilm problems



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi,
I know this topic has been discussed many times, why is biofilm in a tank?
If there is a link between phosphate and biofilm?


----------



## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Are you talking about the surface of the water?


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, biofilm on the surface.


----------



## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

From what I recall, the biofilm on the surface of the water is generally proteinaceous in nature, so it probably comes from fish food, and not phosphates.


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Various protein skimmer assemblies (salt water people use these), put the output of the filter at the surface temporarily, paper towels 

We all deal with it from time to time. It usually happens the day or two before a water change and I put the filter output at water level when the lights go out (not to vent CO2) and it reincorporates it into the water - the next day a w/c does away with it


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi , 
Thanks for the replies, excess protein is the main problem?


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Yes, excess food. I have the biofilm disappearing by itself if I don't feed the fish for a couple of days. I don't skim the water surface at all. I don't see a point in doing that.

Feed less and often than once in bulk. If you can't, invest in an automatic feeder.

Cheers!


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

danielt said:


> Yes, excess food. I have the biofilm disappearing by itself if I don't feed the fish for a couple of days. I don't skim the water surface at all. I don't see a point in doing that.
> 
> Feed less and often than once in bulk. If you can't, invest in an automatic feeder.
> 
> Cheers!


Daniel has it right. usually too much food causes it.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Excess protein in food is shrimp believe.


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Shrimp, krill, fish meat. Any meat put in the food mix. Don't know about vegetable protein though. I'm thinking of soy protein.


----------



## sapphoqueen (Feb 9, 2010)

once about 2 years ago on a asian aquarium site i had see a diy made from a cheapo micro internal filter upsidedown (inlet up outlet down  )put inside a grided cut inlet pipe... and now for a while i see amano's vuppathing ...deja vu? Lol


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Can you send me the website address?


----------



## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

danielt said:


> I have the biofilm disappearing by itself if I don't feed the fish for a couple of days... Feed less and often than once in bulk.
> Cheers!


sadly that does not always work. i have a tank that i feed once or twice a week and i still have have biofilm, the amount of food that i feed is minimal because the fish is rarely out for food. of my 5 tanks 3 have biofilm, really its only of 4 tanks because one has a surface skimmer.

the best "cure" to biofilm is surface agitation, or a surface skimmer.


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Air stone on a timer, 30 minutes a day, best when the CO2 is off. Cured.


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Thanks for the reply, if a pump wave supplement may be the solution?


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

One more solution to consider, I use a IKEA watering can to water my house plants...










When I get biofilm, I use it to skim the surface bio film along with the poop filled, EI fertilized water and use it to water my house plants. It takes about three fills to water all my house plants and 90% of the bio film is gone.
The side benefit of recycling the nutrient rich water is my Indian Rope plant and a variety of other plants have flowered more than ever before. 

It's a little less expensive than a skimmer or wave making apparatus. I sink enough $$$ into this hobby, a little side benefit can be nice


----------



## Waters (Oct 15, 2012)

The film in my tank actually has nothing to do with the fish food. It seems anytime I add new live plants to the tank the film gets bad for several weeks. It was almost completely gone until I added some new swords...within 2 days it was back twice as bad.

To answer the question as to why to remove it (besides looking bad), it blocks a lot of the overhead lighting.


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi,
I decreased the amount and frequency of food you give them, biofilm has not disappeared. After a 25% water change, biofilm reappears.
What is the solution ?


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

Snails and shrimp eat the surface film. I don't see a problem, why are you looking for a solution?


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

My invertebrates eat not the biofilm. Gas exchange is very difficult, what is the solution?


----------



## danielt (Dec 19, 2012)

How did you established gas exchange is difficult? You did received many answers on how to get rid of the surface film.


----------



## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

clau74 said:


> Hi,
> I decreased the amount and frequency of food you give them, biofilm has not disappeared. After a 25% water change, biofilm reappears.
> What is the solution ?





m00se said:


> Air stone on a timer, 30 minutes a day, best when the CO2 is off. Cured.



The air stone m00se is talking about will work very well, i know many members here who do that.

or as i said a surface skimmer.

another thing that helps is when you do your WC only skim the surface.

i think i said this earlier but i have a tank that i feed maybe twice a week, and it has bio-film. i do not beileve that bio-film is a protien issue, i think it is just waste from bacteria in the tank.


----------



## pwolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

I also get this film incredibly bad. Over feeding is most definately not the cause as my betta is the only inhabitant and is fed pellets or worms one at a time and he doesnt get a single pellet or worm more than actually gets ingested.


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

pwolfe said:


> I also get this film incredibly bad. Over feeding is most definately not the cause as my betta is the only inhabitant and is fed pellets or worms one at a time and he doesnt get a single pellet or worm more than actually gets ingested.


Do you have plants? If so, do you also happen to have any java ferns? Just curious...


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

When I had an Aquaclear HOB on my old tank there was never any biofilm, this may be a function of some aquariums (regardless of food, substrate, etc.). 

*EDIT: *My theory is the HOB filters drive the surface debris back into the water column hence no biofilm.

When my current tank was newer (first 3 to 6 months) I had a bad case, I can post pictures. I asked people on GWAPA about it, the consensus was don't worry, skim it if it bothers you but they all managed to have successful planted tanks despite the film. 

It's gotten better but hasn't completely gone away, I just stopped worrying about it because it didn't kill any fish or do any damage. 

You really wanna know, get a sample tested and let us all know  

*EDIT: *Here's the picture! When I put the lily pipe at the water surface there was so much bio film that it created foam - FWIW, it didn't kill anything, but annoyed me... It's gone now that the tank is 10 months old...


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

Makes sense though...HOB's discharge at the top of the water, which would disperse a lot of the waxy crud. I personally don't have any real issue with the stuff because I figure it's a product of a healthy tank, right? What does bug me about it is that I have water lettuce, duck weed, and hydrocotyle that likes to breathe, and looks simply awful with that nasty film surrounding it.


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

clau74 said:


> My invertebrates eat not the biofilm. Gas exchange is very difficult, what is the solution?


Gas exchange concerned me as well, you can run an air stone or power head near the surface with a timer set to turn on when the lights go off. It will cause surface turbulence and break it up and improve gas exchange at night when plants are not producing O2. There really are a number of great ideas on here to do away with it.

I have a powerhead that drives the current, as a byproduct it causes ripples at the surface which probably reduced the film and increase O2 exchange. The film may be an issue for Anabantoids as they need access to air to be healthy.



m00se said:


> Makes sense though...HOB's discharge at the top of the water, which would disperse a lot of the waxy crud. I personally don't have any real issue with the stuff because I figure it's a product of a healthy tank, right? What does bug me about it is that I have water lettuce, duck weed, and hydrocotyle that likes to breathe, and looks simply awful with that nasty film surrounding it.


I concur - it's really gross - when I put my hand in the tank, it's coated in the stuff.


----------



## fishwater (May 31, 2012)

pwolfe said:


> I also get this film incredibly bad. Over feeding is most definately not the cause as my betta is the only inhabitant and is fed pellets or worms one at a time and he doesnt get a single pellet or worm more than actually gets ingested.


Same with my betta, (in a 5gal with a HOB) although I must admit my bio-film isn't that heavy.



m00se said:


> Do you have plants? If so, do you also happen to have any java ferns? Just curious...


I do have a java fern in there but if I recall the bio-film was there before the java.


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi , 
Thanks for the feedback, I have java moss in the tank and phoenix moss is helpful for biofilm. I will try to use air stones.


----------



## pwolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

no java fern here. hc, flame moss, hygro kompakt, mini pelia, hygro araguaia, and a mini clover plant that's name eludes me.


----------



## m00se (Jan 8, 2011)

marsilea minuta!!!


----------



## Waters (Oct 15, 2012)

I re-installed the Tom's Surface skimmer that I had previously installed (and removed due to it being so large and unsightly in a 26g). I modified it by removing the ugly black hose and replacing it with clear tube. Works great....the surface is perfectly clear and has been since installing it. I was also able to hide it with my swords. It makes no noise and works perfectly...couldn't be happier


----------



## sundragon (Jan 10, 2011)

Waters said:


> I re-installed the Tom's Surface skimmer that I had previously installed (and removed due to it being so large and unsightly in a 26g). I modified it by removing the ugly black hose and replacing it with clear tube. Works great....the surface is perfectly clear and has been since installing it. I was also able to hide it with my swords. It makes no noise and works perfectly...couldn't be happier


Pictures?  

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi,
A skimmer is very good, but when using pressurized CO2 is not recommended.
I have not completely escaped the biofilm, now use an air stone.


----------



## supergreeneye (Oct 29, 2011)

will it hurt the fish i have some i just did a water change and and moved my spray bar to the top to move the water and it diddint help i might try the air stone thingif i wont hurt anything ill let it be


----------



## iRun (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm convinced that substrate plays a role in surface film.

I have 4 planted tanks: 2 with gravel, 2 with black eco-complete. Both tanks with eco-complete have a serious surface film problem. All of my tanks have anubias, java fern, and crypts. One tank that has a surface film problem has a cannister, the other has an overflow type filter (fluval spec tank).

I use a surface skimmer in conjunction with my cannister filter and it takes care of the surface film. I haven't worked out a solution for the 5 gallon spec. I've tried putting a piece of plastic along the overflow slots, creating a waterfall effect into the back filter portion but it doesn't really do anything.


----------



## Waters (Oct 15, 2012)

sundragon said:


> Pictures?
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Here you go.......


----------



## clau74 (Apr 21, 2012)

Hi,
The shimmer is connected to external filter. There are other skimmer that connects to the air?
His efficiency is very good?


----------



## Waters (Oct 15, 2012)

clau74 said:


> Hi,
> The shimmer is connected to external filter. There are other skimmer that connects to the air?
> His efficiency is very good?


Yes, the skimmer is connected to an external filter. The effiency is outstanding....I have zero film on the surface since installing (several weeks now). I don't believe there are any freshwater surface skimmers that connect to an air pump but I could be wrong. Saltwater protein skimmers operate based on a column of fine air bubbles but they won't work properly in freshwater aquariums.


----------



## Mattymo92 (Feb 3, 2013)

This is what worked for me... but imagine that for a high-tech tank it may cause you to loose co2 from the surface agitation... I could be wrong though, I'm new to planted tanks.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=12703

- Matt M.


----------



## Mattymo92 (Feb 3, 2013)

Oh someone beat me to it lol


----------



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Excluding chemical contaminants the biofilm is usually protein based. If the protein levels are high enough a foam can be produced with surface agitation. The other common cause is Eisenbacteria (iron bacteria). A simple test (not full proof) is to put your finger into the film. In the case of protein it will not be repelled by your finger. The bacterial form will be repelled. If you really want to know if the foam is protein based you can do a Biuret test. The solution can be purchased online if your'e seriously curious. lol

The link to phosphates is probably from reef aquarium keeping. The protein skimmers used in saltwater also remove organic phosphates which lead to algae blooms. The organic form of these phosphates are not the same as we use as nutrients.


----------



## nelson23 (Feb 25, 2013)

I have been using the Tom surface skimmer for a couple of months. I have not noticed any difference in my CO2 levels with using the TOM. Still have great CO2 levels and great growth but no surface film. In my experience surface agitation does not change CO2 if it is mild.


----------

