# DIY LED wiring diagram; it's not as complicated as you think.



## FDNY911

This is awesome. I made it my background since I am thinking about getting into LEDs for my 120!


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## Wasserpest

Thanks for your post and all the pointers!

Does the driver get hot too? Are there differences, where some get hotter than others? Can you dim LEDs by controlling the AC voltage of your driver with a $5 hardware store dimmer (I suspect not).


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## ohbaby714

It is depend on which one you end up buying.
The constant current driver (if you buy one enclosed one) usually do not get very hot. Maybe warms but no head sink needed.
But the one that not enclosed (PCB expose) probabaly have heat sink on the regulator and may get pretty hot. I would get the MeanWell constanst current dirvers. Most of them are enclosed and water proof. (around +$20-$30)

As far as dimming goes, you are hooking this up in series, adding a regular dimmer from the hardware store will not dim the led. The current will remain constant due to the driver. There are driver that can be dim and that will be your best bet. 
I bought my driver from Rapid LED.
http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-Drivers/Categories
With a bit of google and youtube, you can find how to hook them up and even calibrate the dim switch.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

Thanks for this! Should be a lot easier than my sucky explanations


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## shortsboy

Wow, thanks for putting this all together in such a way that's so accessible!


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## [email protected]

Folks, it really is that easy, finally. 
That setup is what I build for a 24" tank. 
With twelve Satistronics (cheap) 3 watt LEDs, I have to hang it above my 24h as it's too much light sitting on the rim. (insert huge smug grin here) 
With current pricing, it's about $50.00. Less if you can scrounge up some aluminum stock.


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## redfishsc

Wasserpest said:


> Thanks for your post and all the pointers!
> 
> Does the driver get hot too? Are there differences, where some get hotter than others? Can you dim LEDs by controlling the AC voltage of your driver with a $5 hardware store dimmer (I suspect not).



Ohbaby714 covered the answers to this pretty well so I'll just agree with him and add a touch. 

There have been the occasional report of enclosed drivers (such as Meanwells) that get hot, but I am using 2 that never get anything but mildly warm to the touch. Mine sit on top of a very tall canopy so they are NOT in a crowded space, and I imagine they would get warm if placed inside a box or something, but even then it wouldn't be a big deal if the box had any vent holes.


You can NOT dim an LED driver by adjusting the AC- in voltage. Many drivers can operate just fine on 110 and 220v (mine do) and doesn't require any fiddling, it works automatically. 


To dim LEDs you have to buy a dimmable LED driver, and they ALL accomplish this in slightly different ways. Some come with a dimmer knob, some don't (it's usually a simple 10K potentiometer, $3 at Radioshack). Some require a small 9V power adapter to give the dimmer circuit some power (Meanwells), some come with their own built in reference voltage (Thomas Research/Inventronics).


You dim LEDs on a dimmable driver by adjusting that reference voltage with the potentiometer. That reference voltage never actually goes to the LEDs---- instead it works as a communication device for the driver to know how much current you want going through the LEDs. Think of it as a translator; it tells the driver how much to run the LEDs for you, at the twist of a dial.


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## Rockhoe14er

http://www.satistronics.com/3w-high-power-led-pure-white-110130lm_p1317.html

do these led's work just as well as the rapid led lights?


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## ohbaby714

I did one of diy led project a while back using 12 xpg-re, adding it to a 78w t5ho for my 40 gallon. It end up to be way too much even with my diy paint ball at 3-4 bps.
It now just sit as a back up till my t5ho burn out.
My plant is doing great with just minimal light and 1-2 bps. Substrate play a big role imo.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk


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## redfishsc

Rockhoe14er said:


> http://www.satistronics.com/3w-high-power-led-pure-white-110130lm_p1317.html
> 
> do these led's work just as well as the rapid led lights?



Yes and no. They will work for our purposes. 

But they are not nearly as efficient. Granted, they are efficient enough for $2 a piece. 

But you can buy a better quality LED from somewhere like www.ledgroupbuy.com (they have them for under $5 each frequently, for the white Cree XPG, which is one of the best LEDs you can buy). 


Why buy a better quality LED? Several reasons. 
1) They are more efficient and put out more light. I tested a Satistronics "pure white" against a Cree XPG cool white and a Cree XML cool white. The Satistronics gave about half the PAR of the Cree XML at the same drive current, and about 70% of the PAR of the XPG. Meaning, the Cree XML was literally twice as bright, as far as the plants are concerned. More info on this coming soon, we are doing some serious LED testing this weekend 

2) Longer life most likely. A Cree (or Luxeon Rebel) should last around 30-50,000 hours before losing it's output below 70%. Do the math on how many 8-hour days that is roud:. The Satistronics and other low-cost LEDs are probably not going to last that long, I've seen them rated for around 20,000 hours. Still, very good, but it can be way better. 

3) Better color stability. White chinese LEDs have a reputation for looking kinda greenish (which is fine for us, really) and being inconsistent in their color temp. I haven't personally noticed a problem with this, but the Cree, Bridgelux, and Luxeon companies have a very good color binning system that will be much more accurate and consistent. 


In the end, the Satistronics (or Ebay versions) are very affordable and the ONLY reason I would say not to mess with them is because there are better LEDs to be had for only a few dollars more. But really, they can work just fine and still be more efficient that fluorescents. 




ohbaby714 said:


> I did one of diy led project a while back using 12 xpg-re, adding it to a 78w t5ho for my 40 gallon. It end up to be way too much even with my diy paint ball at 3-4 bps.
> It now just sit as a back up till my t5ho burn out.
> My plant is doing great with just minimal light and 1-2 bps. Substrate play a big role imo.



Yeah I could definitely see this being too much lol. I bet it looks sweet though!


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## FDNY911

Thats it! It's final. I shall Build my first LED Fixture for my 120 Gallon tank!


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## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> Thats it! It's final. I shall Build my first LED Fixture for my 120 Gallon tank!


Glad to be an encouragement! All you really need to do is build multiple versions of the array I posted. 

On a 120, since you are already spending a decent amount of money--- spend a little more and get some dimmable drivers. Makes life SOOOO much easier to dim your lights if you end up with a bit too much light, or if you run out of CO2 and can't get it refilled anytime soon.


I'm partial to the Thomas Research (aka, Inventronics) drivers from Nanotuners.com and Nanobox.com


You will also want to try some optics, probably 60 degree optics, since a 120 is a fairly deep tank. They are around 24" deep aren't they?


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## ohbaby714

Here is some picture of the contraption.

























I think it woork too good sitting on the top of the tank with 60 degree optic. The Alge grow like crazy. So i have to stop using it.


I resonly change out the substrate and use only one light, everythings is going great after that. 
















I think i'll try to build a DIY hanging conduit next for the light and use the 12 LEDs and see if that help.


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## Im2Nelson4u

Heres mine


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## ohbaby714

........ I feel bad about my puny tank.
Very nice Im2Nelson4u. I envy your tank scape set up.


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## Rockhoe14er

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Heres mine


How did you get that metal shield on your fixture? did you make it yourself or did someone else make it for you?


Also what's the difference between the cree xpg and the LED's with glass over the led light


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## redfishsc

Nice work guys! Very nice! Keep'em coming!



Rockhoe14er said:


> How did you get that metal shield on your fixture? did you make it yourself or did someone else make it for you?
> 
> 
> Also what's the difference between the cree xpg and the LED's with glass over the led light


If you don't have the resources to replicate that yourself, you could probably get a metal shop to fabricate you one from aluminum sheet, and spray it with something like a low-sheen/dull Rustoleum (or, hammered look). 


The lens over the LEDs in the pic above are just optics. His LEDs are the XRE, which are a VERY good LED. Not quite as efficient as the XPG but still very, very good. And the XRE optics are much easier to work with if you need to use optics. 

The XPG is a smaller LED but brighter and more efficient.... but if you need optics for a deeper tank, they are a pain in the butt to mount optics to for some reason.


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## Rockhoe14er

with the cree xpg do you not need optics? at what depth do optics become a must.


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## eklu65

Rockhoe14er said:


> with the cree xpg do you not need optics? at what depth do optics become a must.


To my understanding, anything over 20" depth you would start to consider optics. If you are interested in higher efficiency LED's, check out the xm-l's. 

http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/ 

This site tends to have pretty cheap prices.


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## audioaficionado

If you mix the WW with either NW or CW the spectral curves look like the PAR would be improved also. I personally think that CW is too blue looking by itself for a planted tank. I used to mix WW&CW when I was still using T12 lamps for my aquarium.
http://www.cree.com/products/pdf/XLampXM-L.pdf


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## Im2Nelson4u

redfishsc said:


> Nice work guys! Very nice! Keep'em coming!
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't have the resources to replicate that yourself, you could probably get a metal shop to fabricate you one from aluminum sheet, and spray it with something like a low-sheen/dull Rustoleum (or, hammered look).
> 
> 
> The lens over the LEDs in the pic above are just optics. His LEDs are the XRE, which are a VERY good LED. Not quite as efficient as the XPG but still very, very good. And the XRE optics are much easier to work with if you need to use optics.
> 
> The XPG is a smaller LED but brighter and more efficient.... but if you need optics for a deeper tank, they are a pain in the butt to mount optics to for some reason.


 
Actually they are XP-Gs


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## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Actually they are XP-Gs


Ah, you must have the optics from Rapidled.com (or ones like them). Sorry for the mistake! 

I've only seen those in particular from Rapid and they look nice. 


Are they easy to mount like they are on an XRE?


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## redfishsc

eklu65 said:


> To my understanding, anything over 20" depth you would start to consider optics. If you are interested in higher efficiency LED's, check out the xm-l's.
> 
> http://www.ledgroupbuy.com/
> 
> This site tends to have pretty cheap prices.



XML's are very, very, very nice. I have 6 of them I haven't put to use yet but will soon, I hope. 

I haven't seen any optics for them though, except for a few super-tight angled flashlight optics that have an enormous throw.


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## Im2Nelson4u

the optics for xpgs are TINYYYY, the diameter is about the size of a dime or so much smaller than the xr-e optics.

I used a syringe full of silicon and put a tiny dab of silicon on the side of holder where it touches the LED.


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## audioaficionado

Once you got the light beams into the water, wouldn't the tank walls act like a prism and reflect it back in?



Im2Nelson4u said:


> the optics for xpgs are TINYYYY, the diameter is about the size of a dime or so much smaller than the xr-e optics.
> 
> I used a syringe full of silicon and put a tiny dab of silicon on the side of holder where it touches the LED.


How much did it narrow the angle?


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## Im2Nelson4u

The thing about optics is your going to want to get atleast 65 degrees for better coverage. I made the mistake of getting 40 degrees and have issues with dark corners. I did some trig and figured it would produce an even cone of light in a 8 inch radius but that was not the case. What happens was the center of the cone is super bright while the edges are much darker and leads to dark spots on the edge of my tank. Unless you spaced them perfectly I dont reccomend anything under 65 degrees


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## eklu65

redfishsc said:


> XML's are very, very, very nice. I have 6 of them I haven't put to use yet but will soon, I hope.
> 
> I haven't seen any optics for them though, except for a few super-tight angled flashlight optics that have an enormous throw.


Sorry, I didn't mean those two sentences to be related.  I meant that if he was considering xp-g's, he should also look into xm-l's as another option. 

Speaking of xm-l's, I'm noticing a lack of driver options. I'm maybe considering 16-18 xm-l's, run at 2100mA for my 75 gallon. I'm still in the planning phase, luckily, so I'm open to options. Any clues? I know you seem to be pretty well versed in the world of LEDs. I was hoping to give myself room for upgrades in the future, mostly automated dawn/day/dusk dimming features with an arduino (another future project for myself...), and was looking at the ELN-60P. Would I just get a couple of them and run them parallel?

Also, would that number be enough for a 75 gallon? I was thinking roughly a 50/50 mix of warm whites and cool whites (possibly even neutral whites). So many questions...I apologize in advance.


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## Im2Nelson4u

Unless you plan on using an arduino or some kind of microcontroller to dim those LEDs I'd advise you to stay away from the eln 60p since they are a bitch to convert the 5v pwm to 10v. Get the D series if you want simple plug and play dimming, all you need is a pot and a 10v regulated wall wart.


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## Rockhoe14er

how difficult is it to solder the wire to the led?

Also do you guys put any silicon on the wire connections to protect them from water that could potentially short circuit the system?


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## eklu65

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Unless you plan on using an arduino or some kind of microcontroller to dim those LEDs I'd advise you to stay away from the eln 60p since they are a bitch to convert the 5v pwm to 10v. Get the D series if you want simple plug and play dimming, all you need is a pot and a 10v regulated wall wart.


Yeah, I was reading about that. I think I was reading about it through one of your posts, actually. I don't think it will be a project that I will undertake right away, it'll just be a project for the future, when I have a better grasp on the arduino.


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## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> The thing about optics is your going to want to get atleast 65 degrees for better coverage. I made the mistake of getting 40 degrees and have issues with dark corners. I did some trig and figured it would produce an even cone of light in a 8 inch radius but that was not the case. What happens was the center of the cone is super bright while the edges are much darker and leads to dark spots on the edge of my tank. Unless you spaced them perfectly I dont reccomend anything under 65 degrees


40's can work wonderfully if you raise the array up another 10-12". I LOVE being able to have very good water access by having the array up higher, but if the array isn't housed inside a canopy, this makes for a nasty glare issue. 




eklu65 said:


> Speaking of xm-l's, I'm noticing a lack of driver options. I'm maybe considering 16-18 xm-l's, run at 2100mA for my 75 gallon. I'm still in the planning phase, luckily, so I'm open to options. Any clues?


Yes, the Meanwell series has a few drivers that go up to 2.5A. I can't recall which model numbers, but if you find a Meanwell datasheet and/or driver chart, you've found it. 

Other than that, I haven't seen many options out there, aside from a few no-name brands on Dealextreme that don't appear to be dimmable.



> Also, would that number be enough for a 75 gallon? I was thinking roughly a 50/50 mix of warm whites and cool whites (possibly even neutral whites). So many questions...I apologize in advance.


For a 75g, I wouldn't use XML's unless you can find optics for them. It's 21" deep and you really will want to use some 60 degree optics if you are running compressed CO2. XPG's are nearly as efficient and bright at the same drive current (1.5A max) and you can get 60 degree optics pretty cheap. Just raise the array up about 8-15" from the water surface to avoid any spotlighting. 

If you do manage to find 80 or 60 degree optics for the XML, you will probably need 30-36 of them if driven at 2000mA. But you'll need some beefy heatsinking because they get hot as heck. Fans for sure. 



Im2Nelson4u said:


> Unless you plan on using an arduino or some kind of microcontroller to dim those LEDs I'd advise you to stay away from the eln 60p since they are a bitch to convert the 5v pwm to 10v. Get the D series if you want simple plug and play dimming, all you need is a pot and a 10v regulated wall wart.



+1,000!

By they way, you don't have to have a 10v regulated. You can use any wall wart 6-10v regulated. I prefer a 9v since they are common and cheap. 

All you have to do is adjust the internal SRV2 screw up a little (using a multimeter as your guide for max current). The SRV2 screw inside the Meanwell allows you to use lower voltage ranges for maximum current output adjustment. 

I've gotten 1,000mA on 4 different 60-48D models using a 6v cell phone charger. This was on a buddy's LED array I was helping with. We were going to use the 6v as a temporary fix, but since we were able to adjust the SRV2 up to 1,000mA, we just left it that. 

Just for clarification for anyone reading this,* never, ever exceed about 10.4 volts going into the Meanwell. *I've spoken with Meanwell techs on the phone about this and they warned me that 10.5 is about as high as it was designed to handle and I should NOT exceed it. 

Thus I prefer nothing with an actual measured voltage output over 9.8 or so.



Rockhoe14er said:


> how difficult is it to solder the wire to the led?
> 
> Also do you guys put any silicon on the wire connections to protect them from water that could potentially short circuit the system?



Soldering is easy if you have the right stuff. 

---40 watt (or higher) soldering iron with a nice, clean narrow tip. 
----60/40 rosin core solder, or 63/37 (my preference). 
---can of flux paste for troublesome solder joints, helps hot solder stick better.

Pre-tin all your wires and all your LED solder pads first. 

As for covering solder joints, our freshwater tanks won't corrode the solder so much as saltwater will, but you certainly can use a small touch of silicone to protect them. 

Personally I prefer using clear lacquer or fingernail polish. I just use my wife's, even though it's sometimes pretty pink lol.

Fingernail polish and lacquer are thin, hard shells that will very quickly burn away if I need to resolder. Silicone will probably give you a headache if you need to resolder something.


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## Im2Nelson4u

Optics reduce intensity a bit somewhere around 15-20% according to an email I sent to Ledil so you definitely dont want to raise it too high. It's better to use a wider optic and get get better coverage. I have mines at 8-10" above water surface and I find them sorta dim, any higher and they just aren't effective anymore. I was considering going back and not using optics or changing all for 65 degrees

The problem with those adjustable wall warts are the voltage spikes that they have when you plug them in. They also dont put out the correct voltage on the cheaper stuff, I had a radio shack wart set to 9v and I measures 14v-15v on my multimeter

I say spend $12 on a nice regulated 10v that you can find online.

RapidLED seems to have a 10V for $10

http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-132/10V-AC-Adapter/Detail


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## eklu65

redfishsc said:


> For a 75g, I wouldn't use XML's unless you can find optics for them. It's 21" deep and you really will want to use some 60 degree optics if you are running compressed CO2. XPG's are nearly as efficient and bright at the same drive current (1.5A max) and you can get 60 degree optics pretty cheap. Just raise the array up about 8-15" from the water surface to avoid any spotlighting.
> 
> If you do manage to find 80 or 60 degree optics for the XML, you will probably need 30-36 of them if driven at 2000mA. But you'll need some beefy heatsinking because they get hot as heck. Fans for sure.



Thanks for the reply! So I'm assuming if I use XPGs with optics, I'd use about 10-20% more than I'd use with XM-Ls? So probably around 38-40? I was thinking I'd keep a couple inches in the very middle empty, so I wouldn't have to waste money illuminating something that would be blocked by the cross brace. Also, I was planning on having a roughly 6" wide fake rock wall as part of the hardscape in the very back, so I wouldn't need to completely illuminate the very back as well. Hopefully those two considerations would help cut down on the cost as well, but I'm definitely open to input.


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## eklu65

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Optics reduce intensity a bit somewhere around 15-20% according to an email I sent to Ledil so you definitely dont want to raise it too high. It's better to use a wider optic and get get better coverage. I have mines at 8-10" above water surface and I find them sorta dim, any higher and they just aren't effective anymore. I was considering going back and not using optics or changing all for 65 degrees
> 
> The problem with those adjustable wall warts are the voltage spikes that they have when you plug them in. They also dont put out the correct voltage on the cheaper stuff, I had a radio shack wart set to 9v and I measures 14v-15v on my multimeter
> 
> I say spend $12 on a nice regulated 10v that you can find online.
> 
> RapidLED seems to have a 10V for $10
> 
> http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-132/10V-AC-Adapter/Detail


How high is the tank you're talking about? I'm not really aiming for too high of PAR, hopefully around medium to upper end of low.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

optics increase intensity... they focus the light into a beam. From my par tests, a 65 degree optic doubles the par almost at about 15 inches.


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## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Optics reduce intensity a bit somewhere around 15-20% according to an email I sent to Ledil so you definitely dont want to raise it too high.


I'm not sure what you mean "reduce intensity 15-20%". They substantially raise intensity, but reduce the footprint. They also do decrease the efficiency of the LED simply because the light is passing through the optic medium, but it's not enough to really worry about.

Perhaps you're saying they reduce intensity when you raise them up, which would be true (with or without optics). There are several reef DIY'ers that have built arrays using 40 and even 20 degree optics and put the array WAY high over the tank and still get 150-200 micromols on the substrate though. 



> The problem with those adjustable wall warts are the voltage spikes that they have when you plug them in. They also dont put out the correct voltage on the cheaper stuff, I had a radio shack wart set to 9v and I measures 14v-15v on my multimeter


Yeah, I have a small pile of 9-12v wall warts that put out twice as much as they are rated to. Supposedly they straighten up when you put a load on them but I would never use one on a Meanwell dimmer. 

That's why I personally like the 6v cell phone chargers, they are pretty rock solid. 

I wasn't aware that adjustable wall warts had voltage spikes upon power up.




eklu65 said:


> Thanks for the reply! So I'm assuming if I use XPGs with optics, I'd use about 10-20% more than I'd use with XM-Ls? So probably around 38-40? I was thinking I'd keep a couple inches in the very middle empty, so I wouldn't have to waste money illuminating something that would be blocked by the cross brace. Also, I was planning on having a roughly 6" wide fake rock wall as part of the hardscape in the very back, so I wouldn't need to completely illuminate the very back as well. Hopefully those two considerations would help cut down on the cost as well, but I'm definitely open to input.



You're probably in the right ballpark with 38-40 XPG's. I can't say that for sure since I've not built and tested an array over a 75g. Plan on using 60 degree optics and having the array designed for fairly easy height adjustment. You'll probably end up with something around 8-12" height but you'll want to play with it to get the best look. 


Also, keep in mind for layout purposes, that a 60 degree optic will produce a 1" wider footprint for every 1" you raise the array. At 6", the optic gives a 6" footprint. At 10", a 10" footprint. Shoot for a reasonably even coverage near the surface so it doesn't look "spotlighty".


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## Im2Nelson4u

Its a noticable difference when you put the optics on for the first time. You'll swear your leds are dimmer.

The transmittance of a Carclo optic is around 85% while the cheaper ones you get on ebay are only around only 80% depending on the plastic they use. 

The reef guys told me to try glass optics which should have 99% transmittance but i'm having a hard time finding ones that i like.

When designing your layout make sure there is overlap of light between 2 or more LEDs so you don't get that spot light effect. As you can see in the picture the edges of the spread are very dim.


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## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Its a noticable difference when you put the optics on for the first time. You'll swear your leds are dimmer.


To our eyes, yes, but not to plants or the PAR meter. 

I wish I could find glass optics like you mentioned, though----- but some LEDs use a reflector, such as the ones for the Bridgelux 402's. These don't have glass nor plastic, just a chrome-type reflector. I have a suspicion these are quite a bit more efficient.


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## Im2Nelson4u

I think a picture is will clear this right up.


I have a small tank that is powered by 13 XR-E that I decided to run without optic. I'll take a pic with the optics and one without to show what kinda effect it'll have.


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## redfishsc

Sounds good. 

FWIW, right now I have 13 Crees over my 11g rimless, and with 60 degree optics about 15" away and it looks blazing bright, actually way too bright, if they are on full 1,000mA. Without the optics at 15", the light isn't nearly as concentrated into the tank and looks dimmer.


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## Im2Nelson4u

I just rescaped this last month so please excuse the tannin stained water (damn aquasoil takes forever)

My tank dimensions are 18x12x18. With the substrate height my LEDS with 50 degree optics ( might be 45) are about 16-17 inch above the aquasoil. 

The heatsink is about 14 inch long with the leds evenly spaced out in 2 rows with 1 extra in the center.

While the center is much brighter with the optics the tank is dimmer around the edges. In person the tank is alot dimmer around the edges than in the picture.

I've tried spacing out the LEDS with the optics on to 16 inches and it didn't make much of a difference










Without the optics the tank seems brighter and more evenly lit.


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## [email protected]

This thread just keeps getting better and better. 
Thank you Im2Nelson4u for the pictures. They do make the point better than words.


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## redfishsc

I see what you are talking about. The optics you are (were) using are causing a terrible spotlighting effect. Without the optics, you're definitely getting a more evenly lit tank. With the optics, all your light is getting blasted onto the very middle of your tank, and not of much use for you..... and potentially cooking any plants directly in the line of fire.



The angle of your optics is way too tight to use them as close to the water surface as you are using them. But you obviously don't need the optics anyhow. 



I also suspect they are much tighter than 40 degrees but it's hard to tell. 


Nice pics, thanks for sharing, and nice CRS too!


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## audioaficionado

Im2Nelson4u those pictures just spoke two thousand words. Since I don't have a rimless tank, I put my lights right on top of the tank so there's no glare on the surrounding walls (substrate is 22" away). Look's like I might be better off with the wider angles of the naked LEDs.

Yes this is a great thread.

BTW here's a 'How to' pdf from Rapid LED.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

I don't run optics on my tanks, only to spot light certain plants. I have my fixture hanging above the tank, and most of the LEDs are naked, they're certainly bright enough to light up my whole tank very well. I threw on some optics on the LEDs that are over certain plants that I really want to have a lot of light on so that the growth is explosive.


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## Im2Nelson4u

I'm still not sure what degree those optics are but I did test them against some 40 degrees optics and they were deffinitely bigger. Maybe in the 50-60 range? 

I'm not sure if my math is correct but a 50 degree optic should give me a 7.5" beam of light 16"-17" from the LEDs to the substrate. I figured this would keep all my light in the tank and off the floor but never imagine it would turn out like this.

So just make sure you get a wider optic than what you think you need and use either more LEDs or a better layout with overlapping.

If I was raising coral this would probably be the effect I would be going for to highlight certain corals but on my planted thank this would melt my plants lol


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## Burks

[email protected] said:


> Folks, it really is that easy, finally.
> That setup is what I build for a 24" tank.
> With twelve Satistronics (cheap) 3 watt LEDs, I have to hang it above my 24h as it's too much light sitting on the rim. (insert huge smug grin here)
> With current pricing, it's about $50.00. Less if you can scrounge up some aluminum stock.


What driver did you use?

Basically just need a power supply, driver, wire, LEDs, and some aluminum stock?

I'd like to try and make one of these for a small 20g long reef tank, without optics. If it works I might move on to doing a nice frag tank with them. Rather do this than buy more expensive lighting. I can handle the soldering.


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## redfishsc

Burks said:


> What driver did you use?


Basically just need a power supply, driver, wire, LEDs, and some aluminum stock?[/quote]

Mostly, correct. Not all drivers need a power supply. The Meanwells and Thomas Research/Inventronics drivers run off of your wall power (120VAC) so no power supply is needed. 

UNLESS you are running a driver that requires a small reference voltage for dimming, such as dimmable Meanwells. They will use two wall plugs-- one for 120VAC and one small wall wart power supply for the DC dimmer circuit. 



> I'd like to try and make one of these for a small 20g long reef tank, without optics. If it works I might move on to doing a nice frag tank with them. Rather do this than buy more expensive lighting. I can handle the soldering.


Check out www.nano-reef.com in their lighting forum, there is one enormous, HUGE thread (a sticky) that is very useful. It's where I learned the basics. I'm still a novice but the more I learn, the more fun it is.:bounce:


----------



## wootlaws

i wished i had seen this thread before i built mine up a couple weeks ago! i did mine in parallel with a computer power supply and circuit in parallel. works but i can't use a pot to dim since the amps are so high but it works just as well.

nice and easy to follow writeup thanks!


----------



## redfishsc

wootlaws said:


> i wished i had seen this thread before i built mine up a couple weeks ago! i did mine in parallel with a computer power supply and circuit in parallel. works but i can't use a pot to dim since the amps are so high but it works just as well.
> 
> nice and easy to follow writeup thanks!



Those can definitely work but you run several risks in the process. As the LEDs get hotter, they draw more current, which makes them hotter, which draws more current. Then you may end up with thermal runaway. 

That, and it's quite difficult (every way I've looked at it) to get the voltage in the right range to get the right current amount. Even 0.1v change can alter the current drawn by an inconvenient amount. 

When you use a constant current LED driver, most all of them automatically adjust the voltage output to exactly what the LEDs need for the current level they are rated for.


----------



## bustah8

Is it better to wire the leds in series over parallel?


----------



## Hoppy

bustah8 said:


> Is it better to wire the leds in series over parallel?


In many cases you would be using a bunch of them in series, with that group in parallel with another bunch of them in series. But, by far the best setup is with only one series string of LEDs per driver. Then if an LED quits running, the whole string goes dark. In parallel, losing an LED increases the current through the other LEDs, which can lead to other failures, followed by all of them failing. If you use one series string per driver, you can use multiple current settings for each string, making mixing colors much easier.

Drivers are getting cheap enough now that using a driver per string makes economic sense too.


----------



## audioaficionado

Multiple strings will also give you more flexibility with multiple timers like morning, midday, afternoon and moonlight options.


----------



## bustah8

I have been wanting to do this sooooo bad! My tank is 20x10x12. What would be a good a smart choice for me? Do you think I would hate myself if I went cheap with just 1 driver and one string? I'm now thinking I might run 2 drivers and 2 strings of 10? I will be constructing a hanging fixture for this so I can adjust height, or should I get 2 dimming drivers, or 1 dimming and 1 constant current? Hmm... so much to consider!
I see Rapidled has bundled kits for dyi, with choices of 700ma driver and royal blue and cool white leds, are those a wasteful choice?


----------



## redfishsc

bustah8 said:


> I have been wanting to do this sooooo bad! My tank is 20x10x12. What would be a good a smart choice for me? Do you think I would hate myself if I went cheap with just 1 driver and one string? I'm now thinking I might run 2 drivers and 2 strings of 10?


As long as you use a good brand LED, 10-14 LEDs should be enough for you. 

I am going to have 14 LEDs over a 36X9X9 (11g rimless GLA tank). 



> I will be constructing a hanging fixture for this so I can adjust height, or should I get 2 dimming drivers, or 1 dimming and 1 constant current? Hmm... so much to consider!
> I see Rapidled has bundled kits for dyi, with choices of 700ma driver and royal blue and cool white leds, are those a wasteful choice?


Most of us won't like a true 50/50 white/blue combo, but I definitely like to have a few blues in mine..... and blues are quite efficient at growing plants. 

In your case, two blues (with no optics) would be plenty, but the safest bet for you would be to stick to using mostly cool whites, neutral whites, or warm whites..... with my personal favorite being a mix of cool and neutral whites. 


I definitely wholeheartedly recommend you go with a dimmable driver. Meanwells are a touch trickier to get to dim right, but it's not that bad. 


The easiest dimmable drivers you can buy that I'm aware of are the Thomas Research drivers (www.nanotuners.com) AKA the Inventronics drivers (www.nanobox.com). 

700mA would be plenty current. They have 1050mA versions available but you won't need it, and the 700mA version will run more LEDs than the 1050's anyhow.

I recommend the Cree XPG or the Luxeon Rebel ES. No optics.


----------



## bustah8

Thank you for the reply Redfishsc. Is it okay to drive more than 12 with one driver, or should I use say, 2 strings of 7 on 2 drivers? Sorry for the incessant bombardment of noobness, but I must pick your brain!


----------



## audioaficionado

How would this work rather than that thermal interfacing tape? We've used it for attaching heat-sinks to ICs and power MOSFETs when overclocking computers with great success.


----------



## redfishsc

audioaficionado said:


> How would this work rather than that thermal interfacing tape? We've used it for attaching heat-sinks to ICs and power MOSFETs when overclocking computers with great success.



Arctic Silver epoxy is a fantastic product and works wonderfully. I have some that I use on larger LEDs. 

Thermal paste is even better but has no adhesive qualities so it requires you to drill/tap your heatsink and I just don't have time to mess with that lol. 





bustah8 said:


> Thank you for the reply Redfishsc. Is it okay to drive more than 12 with one driver, or should I use say, 2 strings of 7 on 2 drivers? Sorry for the incessant bombardment of noobness, but I must pick your brain!



You must know the maximum voltage of your driver and the forward voltage of your LEDs to know this. 

For example. The Meanwell ELN60-48 has a max voltage of 48. 

If you use Cree XRE, they have a fv of 3.7 and you can use 13 of them. 

If you use the Cree XPG, they have a fv of around 3.5, so you can use 14 of them. 


You also frequently have a MINIMUM number of LEDs per driver (though not always) so be sure to check for the high AND low range of the voltage output.


----------



## audioaficionado

CREE XP-G R5 Cool White 3W LED also comes with 65 or 40 degree White Lens.

Wouldn't that 65 degree lens be a good compromise between the 40 degree or naked star mounted? 
Does the optic help make the center to edge illumination more uniform?

This DDC-01 PWM Controller looks just like what I'd need for daylight control. 
"3 Daylight Program Modes (set sunrise/daylight/sunset times)"


----------



## redfishsc

audioaficionado said:


> CREE XP-G R5 Cool White 3W LED also comes with 65 or 40 degree White Lens.
> 
> Wouldn't that 65 degree lens be a good compromise between the 40 degree or naked star mounted?
> Does the optic help make the center to edge illumination more uniform?
> 
> This DDC-01 PWM Controller looks just like what I'd need for daylight control.
> "3 Daylight Program Modes (set sunrise/daylight/sunset times)"



Yes, 60's or 65's are a good option and are what I use. They make it more feasible to use these over tanks that are 20" or more in depth if you want high light conditions. 


40's can work wonderfully if you need to put the array up higher but are a bad choice for use in a canopy where they will be less than 10" from the surface.


----------



## audioaficionado

Looks like the trick to determine the spacing matrix would be to calculate the angles and beam widths to the surface of the water. Once in the water, the higher index of refraction should keep the direct beams within the tank's glass walls.

The spec sheet states 125 degree angle for the naked LED on both the XM-L & XM-G LEDs.

BTW the XM-L LEDs (3000ma) have twice the max drive current of the G series so that the ELN60-48 won't even make it break a sweat and they would last longer than we will at the 1300ma max driver current.


----------



## redfishsc

100% agreed audioaficionado. And the XML puts out around 20% more light at the same drive current than the XPG, if I recall correctly. 


The only downer is that they don't have many/any optic choices for folks with deeper tanks.


----------



## Burks

What do you guys think about these GU10 bulbs? Seems people are just wiring them into a power cord and calling it a day?

I'm just confused on how to wire so many into one power cord. Just wire them in a series I guess?


----------



## audioaficionado

redfishsc said:


> The only downer is that they [XM-L] don't have many/any optic choices for folks with deeper tanks.


I'm hoping that will be taken care of by the time I'm ready to build.


----------



## Hoppy

Burks said:


> What do you guys think about these GU10 bulbs? Seems people are just wiring them into a power cord and calling it a day?
> 
> I'm just confused on how to wire so many into one power cord. Just wire them in a series I guess?


After a brief google search: GU10 LED bulbs are 120 volt bulbs, with pin connectors instead of being screw-in bulbs. You would connect them in parallel, never in series.


----------



## redfishsc

As long as GU10 remains a common favorite for stuff like track lighting, you're in good shape because the LED varieties will just expand in the future. 


Heatsinking them is the biggest problem, and I would stick with the 3X1 watt emitters (or vice versa). Anything more than 3w worth of LED on them and they may have cooling problems.


----------



## audioaficionado

redfishsc said:


> 100% agreed audioaficionado. And the XML puts out around 20% more light at the same drive current than the XPG, if I recall correctly.
> 
> 
> The only downer is that they don't have many/any optic choices for folks with deeper tanks.


Looks like you can safely drive 24 of them with 2500ma if you use 4 dimmable drivers.
Optics options are 40 & 60 degrees.


----------



## Burks

Hoppy said:


> After a brief google search: GU10 LED bulbs are 120 volt bulbs, with pin connectors instead of being screw-in bulbs. You would connect them in parallel, never in series.


Thanks. I'm going to try some of these over my 40g breeder next month. People are using them over smaller reef tanks with success (growing clams/sps).


----------



## FDNY911

Wow 100 for just 12! Hmmm my fixture for my 4x2x2, 120 gallon is going to be pretty damn expensive.


----------



## audioaficionado

Using those Cree XM-L with no optics laying just over the glass cover and running 7 on a 2500ma string, I might only need a total of 14 to light my 36x12x22 tank hopefully rather brightly and evenly.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

xml's are really expensive right now, you could go with xp-g


----------



## FDNY911

How wide should the heatsinks be? I was thinking of using two pre drilled sinks from rapidleds.com At 4.25x23 inches. Since the length of the tank is 48" I figured two would be efficient for each half. Is the 4.25 with only 3 LEDs enough to cover 24 inches front to back? I'll have the light on a pulley system for tank maintenance.

Each sink is tapped for 24 LEDs. 3 rows of 8 Cree LEDs. Not sure which ones yet but probably the cheaper ones lol.

I wanted to have a few dimable meanwell's running on timers so I can different sets of LEDs to come on staggered. I can't afford any programs so I figured this would be my ghetto version of a sunrising (1st set of LEDs), then two rows on and then back down to one row for a sunset. Not sure how that would work with out it dimming via a program. Close enough for me I guess. 

(just saw the post from audio for the DDC-01 PWM Controller! So I can adjust all the drivers brightness separately? No need for the potentiometer?) what's the difference between the 48P and 48D ? Both are dimmer capable.


----------



## redfishsc

Those XML optics in the link above appear to not come with the optic holder. Be DOUBLE sure that they come with the optic holder or else you're in for one very uncomfortable DIY adventure.


----------



## audioaficionado

The XM-L @2500ma is twice as bright as the XM-G at it's absolute limit of 1500ma and it still has room for a little more. Price wise the XM-L might be the best bang for the buck.


----------



## redfishsc

We will have some graphs of the XPG and XML both together at 700mA. We did a pile of spectral analysis today. You'll see that the XML put out a higher curve for each color spectrum than the XPG did.

I did get the XML at 700, 1500, and 3000mA, but didn't think to get the XPG at 700mA. Reason; we were focused mostly on spectral quality, which doesn't change much at all when current increases. 

Look for this data in the coming week or two.


----------



## FDNY911

Any answers for my questions? Especially about the heatsink.


----------



## Arctangent

You guys think these ultra high end (and expensive...ouch) LEDs are really necessary in a planted tank? I mean, as compared to some of the older models.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

They really aren't necessary, you can get same results with a much cheaper T-5 setup. I could have saved soo much money if I went with a $150 T5 setup lol.

I've been using LEDs for my Luxeon Light Sabers for many years and thought I'd give it try on my aquariums. Been 3 years since then and still haven't seen a huge benefit over using T-5 or Metal Halides.

I just enjoy building electronic gadgets, currently working on building a touch sensitive LED table lol.


----------



## Arctangent

Thats not what I was asking.

To be more blunt: Why spend so much money on the newest LED to come out when older models work and cost much less? I just dont see the advantage. 

Also, when you say spectral analysis, you are referring to dicserning the spectral makeup? Isn't that data provided? And what do you do with it? I'd be interested to know PAR data as you move from the centerline of the light cone.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

The newer LEDs are simply more efficient. They are brighter and run cooler than the previous generation. You can use less LEDs to achieve the same brightness as the previous generation or squeeze in an extra LEDs to make it brighter. Using older tech to achieve a certain brightness can cost more when you factor in additional drivers needed. Also the proce difference isn't as high as you think the price difference between and XR-E and XP-G is around $1 or $2, the XM-L is almost twice as much but to be fair it's still new. I remember there was a time I spent $24-$30 on a single Luxeon V LED for my lightsaber.

Theres also the issue of how many LEDs you can squeeze onto a heatsink. Heat is always an issue when using LEDs, my XR-E setup runs alot hotter than my XP-G setup and requires atleast two fans to keep it cool wherever my XP-G only require one.


Here is a chart that compares the different Cree models. 

I know PAR is whats important but these charts show how efficient each LED is. Base on this chart a XM-L LED would be able to achieve the same brightness as a XR-E at only 500ma-600ma vs 1000ma on the XR-E. This would allow me to use less LEDs, run them cooler or have brighter lights using the same amount of LEDs. 











Also here is another chart that compares the voltage requirements at different currents. A Meanwell eln-60-48 drivers should run 12 XR-E LEDs to be safe but you can run up to 13 XP-G LEDs or 16 XM-L LEDs on the same driver. I'm just amazed that a XM-L only requires 3v vs 3.7v on the XR-E











I don't have a graph of an individual LED par output but here is a chart I found that has the output of a combination 24 XP-Gs and XP-Es at different distances from the center line.


----------



## redfishsc

He's definitely right about the efficiency of the LED's. 

What that chart does not show is the lower-cost chinese import LEDs. I'll be showing a graph comparing the chinese whites to a Cree soon. I'm not a fan of the chinese stuff at all and I suspect they are only a hair more efficient than T5HO, if that. 


If you compare a chinese white ($2) to an XPG ($6) and then an XML ($8), you will see that the XPG and XML are definitely higher output (at the same drive current). They do cost more, but I also suspect they will last a lot longer. 



A good combination of life, efficiency, color, and cost is the Bridgelux 402 5600K. For $7, it's a 10-watt LED that should last a very, very long time and is more efficient than the chinese stuff. I highly recommend them. They are a touch less efficient than the Crees but for cost-effective decisions, they are very hard to beat.


----------



## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> How wide should the heatsinks be? I was thinking of using two pre drilled sinks from rapidleds.com At 4.25x23 inches. Since the length of the tank is 48" I figured two would be efficient for each half. Is the 4.25 with only 3 LEDs enough to cover 24 inches front to back? I'll have the light on a pulley system for tank maintenance.


You probably could make that 4" wide heatsink work, but I would be tempted to use a table saw or jig saw to rip it into two thinner 2" strips. That way you can space them out further. A 120 is 18" or 20" wide, right? I suspect you'll want the LEDs spaced a bit more than the 3" apart that a 4" heatsink will net you. I would want 6" or so in between the two rows.



> Each sink is tapped for 24 LEDs. 3 rows of 8 Cree LEDs. Not sure which ones yet but probably the cheaper ones lol.


Bridgelux 402's are another good option, from www.newark.com. Just do a search for "bridgelux 402". This is a 10-watt LED and you probably won't need optics. Divide the number of Cree's that you would need by 2.5 and that should tell you roughly how many Bridgelux to use. 




> (just saw the post from audio for the DDC-01 PWM Controller! So I can adjust all the drivers brightness separately? No need for the potentiometer?) what's the difference between the 48P and 48D ? Both are dimmer capable.


You'll want to contact RapidLED for the specifics, but I think the three channels on it can be dimmed individually.... but they will all follow the same dimming schedule, it's just that you can set them individually to a lower current. No potentiometer needed.


The difference between the P and D models: the P models use a pulse-width modulation (PWM) as the dimming "language". Thus that controller at RapidLED. 


The D models use a standard 0-10v analog DC voltage, which is MUCH easier to do. Realistically you can use anything from 6-10v (like a 6v cell phone charger) and then adjust the Meanwell via the internal SRV2 to run at full-blast with only 6v in the dimmer circuit. 10K Potentiometer needed.


----------



## redfishsc

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> xml's are really expensive right now, you could go with xp-g



If you are going to run the XML at 2500mA, you only need half as many. They are like $8, vs. the $5 for an XPG, so when their potential light output is considered, they're actually cheaper. 

Hopefully we'll get optics soon. 

You can get very good prices on them at www.ledgroupbuy.com but shipping takes a while since this is a group buy format.


----------



## Arctangent

I just wonder if it is actually true that you can get away with less LEDs. While the overall lumen output may be higher, I think that you will get PAR spotlighting if you use less and get them spaced too far apart.

The PAR graphs kind of drive my point...those PAR numbers are insane for a planted tank. What was the grid spacing?

You can get XR-Es for $2.5 at DealExtreme with free shipping.

Also, datasheets are not always entirely accurate. My XR-Es run~3.3V @ 1A. 









To each his own, but the major components of my enitre project are cheaper than 24 XM-Ls listed on the previous page, and I've got 27 LEDs.


----------



## Arctangent

Also, ppl tend to make too big of a deal about heat issues. Yea they run hot and yes you need a heat sink...but only so you wont burn yourself when you touch them. As a part of a school project I recorded temps off the back of a XP-G with no heatsink, then used some math to calculate the junction temps from there. The result: at room temperature the junction temp reached it's maximum value of 150C at 1A. Therefore under the same conditions, the LED can actually run at 1A or less without any external heatsinking and it will not overheat.

In the graph and table below PL=LED power, Critical Td is a temp on the back of the star corrosponding to a 150C junction temp at that power, Measured Td is the actual measured temp from the back of the star, and Calculated Tj is the calculated juncction temp.


----------



## redfishsc

Arctangent said:


> I just wonder if it is actually true that you can get away with less LEDs. While the overall lumen output may be higher, I think that you will get PAR spotlighting if you use less and get them spaced too far apart.


They come with a 120 degree angle of light output, so the actual footprint of usable light will vary, obviously, with how high you put them. Spotlighting isn't going to be much of an issue, though, unless you put them way too close to the water surface or if you just have way too few. I think you could space them 3-5" apart and do just fine, maybe even further apart if you use higher current and raise the array up a little.

But in general yes, you can definitely use fewer XML. I am lighting a 10g tank right now with a single 10w Satistronics LED that isn't nearly as efficient as a Cree XML at the same wattage and I'm growing low/medium plants just fine.

There is higher light under the LED and lower light on the perimeter but it's plenty to grow crypts and dwarf sag. No CO2, no dosing anything but fish food and water changes with 2dKH tap water.




> You can get XR-Es for $2.5 at DealExtreme with free shipping.


That's a GREAT price for an XRE. They come with a 90 degree optic angle, automatically, so you'd need to keep that in mind when spacing them out, but I have about a dozen of them I'm using right now and they are fantastic LEDs. Thanks for the tip.


----------



## redfishsc

Arctangent said:


> Also, ppl tend to make too big of a deal about heat issues. Yea they run hot and yes you need a heat sink...but only so you wont burn yourself when you touch them. As a part of a school project I recorded temps off the back of a XP-G with no heatsink, then used some math to calculate the junction temps from there. The result: at room temperature the junction temp reached it's maximum value of 150C at 1A. Therefore under the same conditions, the LED can actually run at 1A or less without any external heatsinking and it will not overheat.



Running XPG's at 1A with no heatsink isn't something I would recommend nor try myself. 

You're running them at the maximum temp they are rated for--- 150C, or 302F (which is way, way past the boiling point of water and thus WILL burn you if you touch the back of it). 

Running them hot like this will absolutely shorten their useful life. I accidentally unplugged the fans on my LED array one day and they ran all day without active cooling. The two heatsinks are the 3/8" thick aluminum w/ 1" tall fins, and 2" wide, 24" long. Even this beefy heatsink, with 12 LEDs at 1A, got unbearably hot to the touch. 

Add to this the fact that they drop down to a dismal 70% efficiency (luminous flux) at 150C. Even suggesting that someone could run these over a planted tank without a heatsink is a very bad idea. 

At best, it ruins the efficiency that we're all looking for here. At the worst, they will lose LEDs to failure.


----------



## Arctangent

> They come with a 120 degree angle of light output, so the actual footprint of usable light will vary, obviously, with how high you put them. Spotlighting isn't going to be much of an issue, though, unless you put them way too close to the water surface or if you just have way too few. I think you could space them 3-5" apart and do just fine, maybe even further apart if you use higher current and raise the array up a little.


I said PAR spotlighting, not spotlighting. While visible light may come out at 120 degrees, the intensity (and assumed PAR) drops off dramatically as you move from the centerline. Therefore LEDs must overlap to cause a flooding effect in order to get uniform PAR. How much overlap?? Only those with PAR meters can tell. While the idea of using less XM-Ls does have validity because of their higher intensity and wider lense, I seriously doubt that you can use half as many as you would with XP-Gs or XR-Es and still expect uniform PAR. Unless of course you have any data to suport your claim



> But in general yes, you can definitely use fewer XML. I am lighting a 10g tank right now with a single 10w Satistronics LED that isn't nearly as efficient as a Cree XML at the same wattage and I'm growing low/medium plants just fine.


Got a Pic? I'd be interested to see what it looks like.



> Also, ppl tend to make too big of a deal about heat issues. Yea they run hot and yes you need a heat sink...but only so you wont burn yourself when you touch them. As a part of a school project I recorded temps off the back of a XP-G with no heatsink, then used some math to calculate the junction temps from there. The result: at room temperature the junction temp reached it's maximum value of 150C at 1A. Therefore under the same conditions, the LED can actually run at 1A or less without any external heatsinking and it will not overheat.
> 
> 
> 
> Running XPG's at 1A with no heatsink isn't something I would recommend nor try myself.
> 
> You're running them at the maximum temp they are rated for--- 150C, or 302F (which is way, way past the boiling point of water and thus WILL burn you if you touch the back of it).
> 
> Running them hot like this will absolutely shorten their useful life.
> 
> Add to this the fact that they drop down to a dismal 70% efficiency (luminous flux) at 150C. Even suggesting that someone could run these over a planted tank without a heatsink is a very bad idea.
> 
> At best, it ruins the efficiency that we're all looking for here. At the worst, they will lose LEDs to failure.
Click to expand...

As for this post: Don't put words in my mouth, that's good way to ruffle anyones feathers. I never suggested anything of the sort. I wasn't running them at this temp, it was designed to be a destructive experiment for DATA EXTRACTION. What idiot would do that? It would burn the $hit outta you. What I am showing here that the LED itself is very tough...IT (the LED) doesn't need much of a heat sink. WE (combustables) do. BTW the data says the casing temp got to 125C not 150, that number is the junction temp (still above boiling tho). My main point of the post was this: All you need is a heatsink that is good enough to maintain a comfortable casing temperature, not 1 fan vs. 2 for this LED vs. that. There are ways of calculating what kind of heatsink you need, lookup: cree thermal management.


----------



## bustah8

Speaking of heatsinks, I was wondering if anyone of you knowledgeable and helpful folks could render your thoughts on this heatsink I found. I hope these pics work...









There are several holes in it. Would it be ok to just leave them, or would it be better to fill them with some type of filler? Maybe it would be wise to not use this one?

http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa384/bustah8/th_013.jpg?t=1304274456

L-11 3/8" X W-8 11/16" X H-1 9/16", 1/8" thick at the base, fin thickness of 1/16" at the base, 1/32" at the ends with a fin height of 1 7/16". 
I was hoping to cut it better suit the design of the hood as well as the array. I'm thinking I will end up with 2 pieces @ 8" long x 4 1/4" wide. I'm hoping to scab some aluminum angle to joint them end to end, to have a total length of 16". I am planning on having 2 rows of 6. to Is 4 1/4" wide enough to mount 2 rows? How much room between rows and how much room should I leave between the outside edge of the heatsink and the led base? I'm sorry for so many questions, I just want to be sure.


----------



## redfishsc

I can't give any data on XML usage but I have seen what they do at 700, 1500, and 3,000mA. I do own 6 of them but I'm not using them at the moment, but I don't think it's unreasonable to think that you can get "effectively uniform" PAR by using about half the number. You would need to raise the heatsink some. 



Arctangent said:


> As for this post: Don't put words in my mouth, that's good way to ruffle anyones feathers. I never suggested anything of the sort. I wasn't running them at this temp, it was designed to be a destructive experiment for DATA EXTRACTION. What idiot would do that? It would burn the $hit outta you. What I am showing here that the LED itself is very tough...IT (the LED) doesn't need much of a heat sink.



I apologize for missing your statement that you highlighted in red.

However, you did say explicitly that "the LED can actually run at 1A or less without any external heatsinking and it will not overheat."

That statement is misleading and is the statement I was referring too. The main reason I countered this statement was because I get asked all the time if the heatsink is necessary, and the answer is an absolute yes. Too many people want to skip/skimp on this and it's just too necessary.

People will read your statement and miss, just like I did, where you said that you DO need a heatsink. 

So I apologize for only catching half of your point but I do feel it necessary to respond to the other half. 





> BTW the data says the casing temp got to 125C not 150


I got the "150C" from this statement of yours, not from the data chart.... but even 125C isn't good, long term:



> The result: at room temperature the junction temp reached it's maximum value of 150C at 1A. Therefore under the same conditions, the LED can actually run at 1A or less without any external heatsinking and it will not overheat.




As for my 10g and what it looks like, it's a jungled pile of crypts and saggitaria, with a few apons. It's terribly overgrown and I do not have any pics of it because it's a temporary setup with a temporary "toss them in and see what happens" sort of landscaping. 

This is the LED I'm using. I will have a graph of the spectral output of this LED soon but that will be a different thread.


----------



## redfishsc

bustah8 said:


> Speaking of heatsinks, I was wondering if anyone of you knowledgeable and helpful folks could render your thoughts on this heatsink I found. I hope these pics work...


Yes, it will work just fine. Nice find!

I prefer the base to be around 1/4" thick if it has fins, but 1/8" will work as long as you use a good brand thermal epoxy and possibly add a computer fan to it. You may not need to drive the LEDs hard, so if they aren't driven more than around 700mA you may not need a fan. Fans are cheap and easy so I use them anyway.



> There are several holes in it. Would it be ok to just leave them, or would it be better to fill them with some type of filler? Maybe it would be wise to not use this one?


Ignore the holes, but don't put an LED over them (even if you do fill it, it won't conduct heat nearly as well as it would have if it were solid aluminum). Just avoid them when you stick the LEDs on it and you will be just fine. 





> L-11 3/8" X W-8 11/16" X H-1 9/16", 1/8" thick at the base, fin thickness of 1/16" at the base, 1/32" at the ends with a fin height of 1 7/16".
> I was hoping to cut it better suit the design of the hood as well as the array. I'm thinking I will end up with 2 pieces @ 8" long x 4 1/4" wide. I'm hoping to scab some aluminum angle to joint them end to end, to have a total length of 16". I am planning on having 2 rows of 6. to Is 4 1/4" wide enough to mount 2 rows? How much room between rows and how much room should I leave between the outside edge of the heatsink and the led base? I'm sorry for so many questions, I just want to be sure.


Sounds fine to me. I would still use computer fans on it (just 1 fan per 4X8, and nearly any computer fan will work, big or small).


----------



## bustah8

Thank you Redfish. I do have 2 3" 12v DC fans. I can just wire those to a wall wart right?


----------



## bustah8

That is a nice round heatsink you have! What size is the bulb in that? I just got an idea. I can get loads of small 2x2 pc heatsinks for cheap. Do you think it would work to use one for each led? That way I could have design a grid type mount that would enable me to move the leds here and there to really fit my tank.


----------



## Arctangent

Well, since neither of us have PAR spread data on XM-Ls, we'll have to agree to disagree until proven otherwise.

It doesn't overheat, but I should have defined overheating. It is defined as the junction temp going over it's maximum value of 150C _causing damage_. It gets piping hot and can cause serious burns before it overheats. Just to clarify: 125C casing temp = 150C junction temp, so at max temp you would burn yourself at 125C lol.

I was just asking about the 10G because you can kinda tell what level of light the plants are actually recieving by inspecting how they grow. It doesn't have to be beautiful.

I agree with your suggestions on the heat sink.

To bustah, while individual heatsinks would work, it's gonna be more involved aligning the LEDs and the wiring will not come out as clean. How wide is your tank?


----------



## redfishsc

bustah8 said:


> Thank you Redfish. I do have 2 3" 12v DC fans. I can just wire those to a wall wart right?


As long as you are sure the fans are 12VDC, and that their total current draw is not more than the rated current capability of the wall wart, then yes, should be just fine. 



bustah8 said:


> That is a nice round heatsink you have! What size is the bulb in that? I just got an idea. I can get loads of small 2x2 pc heatsinks for cheap. Do you think it would work to use one for each led? That way I could have design a grid type mount that would enable me to move the leds here and there to really fit my tank.


It's a 10-watt Satistronics LED. There are nicer LEDs out there for about the same price, but I bought this one to play with and was surprised at how good it works.

And yes, you can use 1 LED (3-watt) per PC heatsink, but that would be a mess to try to mount--- Arctangent is right.

If you get creative with some cheapo steel flat bar from Lowes, and some good neodymium magnets from www.magnet4less.com, then you might come up with an infinitely adjustable spacing....... but good luck on figuring out how to stick the magnets to the heatsink without killing the airflow around the fins.


----------



## bustah8

It is only a 10g 20x10x12. 
I know there would be some design issues. I was thinking of some type of easy customized grid to suspend the heatsinks from using rigid spacers to keep the heatsinks straight and level and use extra wire between leds to allow for a little bit of flexibilty. I'm basically just concerned with is what kind of spacing I should employ to give the best coverage with no more than 12 leds. I guess I should ask is what size heatsink and led array/alignment would be ideal?


----------



## bustah8

Wouldn't it be cool to design a light that you could move leds kind of like track lights? Am I just being stupid?


----------



## Arctangent

bustah8 said:


> Wouldn't it be cool to design a light that you could move leds kind of like track lights? Am I just being stupid?


 
Yea I like the idea, I actually thought of that too at one point. It was just more work than I wanted to put in. I'd put two strings 3-3.5" apart from eachother with the LEDs spaced evenly lengthwise, you could probably get away with using 10 LEDs over a 10g tank.


----------



## bustah8

redfishsc said:


> As long as you are sure the fans are 12VDC, and that their total current draw is not more than the rated current capability of the wall wart, then yes, should be just fine.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a 10-watt Satistronics LED. There are nicer LEDs out there for about the same price, but I bought this one to play with and was surprised at how good it works.
> 
> I was thinking of maybe using something like this on my project for the 10g before seeing how easy and surprisingly affordable DIY led really is. I was going to use an outdoor/garden 10 watt led, combined with 4 cfl's and create a hybrid (Frankenlight!!!) inside a cool looking aluminum fixture. I still might do this as a first attempt at a really slick hood as I'm sure I'll gain some useful experience to apply while building the more costly led fixture.


----------



## redfishsc

bustah8 said:


> I was thinking of maybe using something like this on my project for the 10g before seeing how easy and surprisingly affordable DIY led really is. I was going to use an outdoor/garden 10 watt led, combined with 4 cfl's and create a hybrid (Frankenlight!!!) inside a cool looking aluminum fixture. I still might do this as a first attempt at a really slick hood as I'm sure I'll gain some useful experience to apply while building the more costly led fixture.



You must be aiming for very high light with 4 CFL and a 10w LED. 

Unless you have the parts laying around for a 4-bulb CFL setup, just skip the CFL and use all LEDs. You'll spend a little more money, in the end, you're done and you have what you're wanting anyhow. 

Over a 10g for high light you will only really need about 6-8 Cree XPG or XML, with no optics. You could space all 6-8 of them on a 4X8 heatsink with a computer fan, or use two larger 4X4 type PC heatsinks with 1 fan per sink.

For the driver, you could go with a non-dimmable Meanwell LPC, 700mA model that usually sells for under $20.


----------



## bustah8

redfishsc said:


> You must be aiming for very high light with 4 CFL and a 10w LED.
> 
> Unless you have the parts laying around for a 4-bulb CFL setup, just skip the CFL and use all LEDs. You'll spend a little more money, in the end, you're done and you have what you're wanting anyhow.
> 
> Over a 10g for high light you will only really need about 6-8 Cree XPG or XML, with no optics. You could space all 6-8 of them on a 4X8 heatsink with a computer fan, or use two larger 4X4 type PC heatsinks with 1 fan per sink.
> 
> For the driver, you could go with a non-dimmable Meanwell LPC, 700mA model that usually sells for under $20.


Ya, Frankenlight is a pile of spare stuff. You're right about it being too much light. How high off the tank would be optimum for 8 XPG's?


----------



## bustah8

I would use the heatsink that I showed you earlier, but it is so full of holes that I don't think I could mount the leds where I'd need them.


----------



## redfishsc

bustah8 said:


> Ya, Frankenlight is a pile of spare stuff. You're right about it being too much light. How high off the tank would be optimum for 8 XPG's?


The height would depend on the spacing. I can't predict it completely but I can make a good guess. 

If you used a 4X8" heatsink and spaced them fairly evenly on it (2 rows of 4, 2.5" in between the rows) then you should be able to hang it up to about 6" from the water surface of a 10g tank. 

If you use a wider spacing in the effort to avoid any and all shadows (which isn't necessary nor beneficial IMO) then you could lower it closer. 


As for your holy heatsink cool just do the best you can, it appears to me to be a perfectly useable heatsink. The holes should not be directly under an LED but if they are just to the side, it should be fine.


----------



## bustah8

redfishsc said:


> The height would depend on the spacing. I can't predict it completely but I can make a good guess.
> 
> If you used a 4X8" heatsink and spaced them fairly evenly on it (2 rows of 4, 2.5" in between the rows) then you should be able to hang it up to about 6" from the water surface of a 10g tank.
> 
> If you use a wider spacing in the effort to avoid any and all shadows (which isn't necessary nor beneficial IMO) then you could lower it closer.
> 
> 
> As for your holy heatsink cool just do the best you can, it appears to me to be a perfectly useable heatsink. The holes should not be directly under an LED but if they are just to the side, it should be fine.


Thanks Redfish

There are about 45 holes drilled in it. So as long as I don't put the bulb itself over a hole, the base is ok? I should be able to get it to work. Thanks!


----------



## redfishsc

Yes, it will be fine as long as you don't put the LED on top of the hole. To the side is OK. The holes aren't big enough to make much of a difference.


----------



## audioaficionado

I only posted the Cree XM-L and the Mean Well 60-24 (as a means to fully drive them) for the high-end option. This would be great with the narrow angle optics for hanging an array high over a large rimless tank. Nice spotlighting effect for the whole tank in a darkened room.

Another approach would be to get a lot of 1W LEDs and space them much closer together than you would the 3W LEDs to get adequate high to medium level PAR levels on smaller or mid sized tanks.

BTW, I looked at one of Marineland's Double Bright LED Lighting units today and they use only 1W LEDs. I haven't seen many user reviews from planted tank enthusiasts. I wasn't impressed compared to what I've seen DIYed here.

Reef Capable LED vs. Double Bright LED

Reef Capable LED


> A quick PAR reading with the newer Apogee PAR meter yielded values that were consistently above 80 umol at a distance of 18 inches through saltwater, directly underneath the light. [...] Eyeballing it we’d say the color temperature of the Reef Capable LED is really close to a nice cool white 10,000 Kelvin with just enough blues to bring up the color rendition and make a few fluorescent colors pop.


----------



## Dragonstar

audioaficionado said:


> Another approach would be to get a lot of 1W LEDs and space them much closer together than you would the 3W LEDs to get adequate high to medium level PAR levels on smaller or mid sized tanks.


That is what I intend to do. I live in Durham NC where CREE is based. I know a guy so here is what I have right now:

XPEWHT-L1-8B0-P4-0-01 (qty 32)
XPEWHT-L1-7C0-P3-0-01 (qty 12)
XPEWHT-L1-WD0-Q5-0-01 (qty 28)
XPEWHT-L1-WG0-Q5-0-01 (qty 84)

Here are some oddball ones:
XPEWHT-L1-WWX-XX-0-0 (qty 36) These appear to be warm whites from the color of the die, but I can't find WWX-XX listed on any of the BIN charts. I'm no expert though I think these were the first XPEs off the line.

XPCWHT-L1-7C0-N2-0-01 (qty 16) Not sure where XPC's fall in the chain.

I have 40 of the thicker but smaller dot-shaped LED heatsinks, and can get more. I'm more used to the star shaped sinks but these dots are kinda cute even if they are the size of a pencil eraser. 

My build is unusual in that cost of the LEDs is literally not a factor, so I can put as many of these LEDs as I want into the build. I'm thinking of using some 80/20 T Slot aluminum extrusion as the main heatsinks if I can't find a nice heatsink at the scrapyard. My tank is a 48 x 15 x 15 SeaClear; it is essentially the same as the stocking tanks in PetSmart. It is not rimless so I will need to build a hood. 

I'm thinking of using four 48" x 2" x .75" T-Slot as heatsinks with a mix of warm and cool whites on each bar. I imagine having between 16-24 LEDs per bar and underdriving them. I want to get a microcontroller in the mix as well. But I really don't know what I'm doing. Right now I'm just gathering parts.


----------



## jcgd

I've read through this entire thread, and I must say, you've all got me thinking. I have a few questions.

How would you figure out how many LEDs you need over a given tank. Say my 90 gallon (48"x18"x24" tall)?

Do you end up with greatly reduced power consumption, over say 4x54watt T5HO?

Even though it would cost me more than a new T5HO fixture, an LED setup would last me years, likely a decade or so? No bulbs to replace.

For dimming, is it possible to use something like a aquajunior controller controlling a phone charger that controls the dimming circuit on the driver? Ie. drop the voltage to the charger to drop the voltage to the dimmer for a sunrise/sunset effect? Or do you need a setup like the reefkeeper controller?


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

I don't really have a way of calculating how many LEDs you need but I usually go for enough to have even coverage. I use 36 on a 36x18x18 tank and it grows HC just fine. Probably the best way is to use a PAR meter. You can always use a dimmer if the lights are too strong.

For a 48" I would use around 48-52 LEDs . You can use more but I think it'll be hard squeezing more than 52 on a 4 foot heatsink. It also depends on which driver your using. I find meanwell ELN drivers easiest to use and will let you power 13 xp-g per driver.

You would be using around 160w of power. They say these LEDs will last more than a decade under good conditions but honestly after about 5-6 years i'd probably switch them out for newer tech.

You can use an Aqua JR or Reef Keeper but you need the right modules to get them to dim. A Reef Keeper lite + ALC Module will control a ELN 60-48D for a sunrise and sunset effect.


----------



## redfishsc

justincgdick said:


> I've read through this entire thread, and I must say, you've all got me thinking. I have a few questions.
> 
> How would you figure out how many LEDs you need over a given tank. Say my 90 gallon (48"x18"x24" tall)?


If you are trying to match the light production of a 4X54w T5HO (assuming one that has good reflectors) you would need probably around 50-60 LEDs with 60 degree optics. But I doubt you really need that much light if this is a planted tank, this might produce upwards of 120-150micromols on the sandbed. 

You may actually get away with using 40-45 LEDs but you'll still want 60 degree optics, and raise the array up a little higher to get the best light coverage.



> Do you end up with greatly reduced power consumption, over say 4x54watt T5HO?


Absolutely, especially if you use a quality brand (ie, efficient) LED like Cree, Luxeon Rebel, or Bridgelux. 

For example, you can get similar numbers and light-footprint on a 250w DE halide bulb/reflector as you would on a 24-LED array, using Cree XPG, and 60 degree optics, at 1,000mA (over a 24" long heatsink). I've verified this with a PAR meter, as have other folks. This is my LED array, and it beat my 250w DE Phoenix bulb hands down. That's around 90 watts of LED that's matching a 250w halide.





Im2Nelson4u said:


> A Reef Keeper lite + ALC Module will control a ELN 60-48D for a sunrise and sunset effect.


There have been a good number of reports of people having trouble with these. Apparently the ALC module wasn't intended to put out much current, and the Meanwell D models don't draw much current.... but the ALC just doesn't put out enough for it to be predictable. There have been a lot of people with fried ALC modules from the Meanwells sucking on them too hard.


----------



## redfishsc

Dragonstar said:


> That is what I intend to do. I live in Durham NC where CREE is based.


Hello fellow Triangle citizen!

Did you manage to get those LEDs mounted on pcbs? Or do you have reflow soldering capabilities?


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

I don't have a RCL but I know a couple of people using it to power 6 just fine for the past 2 years. Maybe they just have good modules. I remember a guy on RC thats was using 8 drivers on his ALC unit. 

I think 4 drivers shouldn't be a problem.

If you want cheaper I guess you could always do a cheap arduino circuit for the ELN P Series

All you need are 

-Resistors
-LM317 regulator
-2n2222 transistor 
-12v switching regulated power supply
-Cheap arduino Decimilia clone
-10k POT (10 Turn would be best)

Just use the Pot LED FADE sketch on the arduino site. You can add a DS1307 RTC if you want sunrise-sunset.


----------



## redfishsc

Very nice Nelson. I've never had the ability (time/cash) to mess with the Arduino stuff. 

I have two P model ELN's but I feed them an analog 10v (full voltage) which it interprets (I think) as a 100% duty cycle. To dim the LEDs I just dial down the SRV2 screw.... set it and forget it. I can't dim them easily on the fly, but if I can get the LEDs down to around 400mA this way.


----------



## Dragonstar

redfishsc said:


> Hello fellow Triangle citizen!
> 
> Did you manage to get those LEDs mounted on pcbs? Or do you have reflow soldering capabilities?


Well, i've had the leds for about 18 hours or so.... Not mounted just yet. :smile:

I have never mounted them this way, but "the guy" told me his buddy at cree uses a skillet to do it on the stove top. I need to buy some flux paste and then we're gonna have an LED clambake.

You gonna be at the RAS meeting this week?


----------



## audioaficionado

We used Leister heat guns at the PCB assembly shop I used to work at.

I think a variable temp heat gun from Harbor Freight would work better than a skillet.


----------



## redfishsc

Dragonstar said:


> You gonna be at the RAS meeting this week?



Just too busy, I have several hundred pages of reading and a few dozen pages of writing for grad school, due in the next 3 weeks, so RAS just is on the back burner.


----------



## Dragonstar

audioaficionado said:


> We used Leister heat guns at the PCB assembly shop I used to work at.
> 
> I think a variable temp heat gun from Harbor Freight would work better than a skillet.


I have one of those. What's the best way to accomplish it? I have never done this and I welcome any advice you've got.


----------



## redfishsc

Some of the guys on Nano-reef.com have done it I think but I'm not sure.


----------



## audioaficionado

Dragonstar said:


> I have one of those. What's the best way to accomplish it? I have never done this and I welcome any advice you've got.


Got some pictures of both sides and both pieces?

Found SOLDERING & HANDLING at CREE.com


----------



## FDNY911

Quote:
Originally Posted by FDNY911 
How wide should the heatsinks be? I was thinking of using two pre drilled sinks from rapidleds.com At 4.25x23 inches. Since the length of the tank is 48" I figured two would be efficient for each half. Is the 4.25 with only 3 LEDs enough to cover 24 inches front to back? I'll have the light on a pulley system for tank maintenance.

*** *** ***

You probably could make that 4" wide heatsink work, but I would be tempted to use a table saw or jig saw to rip it into two thinner 2" strips. That way you can space them out further. A 120 is 18" or 20" wide, right? I suspect you'll want the LEDs spaced a bit more than the 3" apart that a 4" heatsink will net you. I would want 6" or so in between the two rows.

**************************

The tank is 48x24x24 inches, not the 18 or 20 inch. Its a fat boy. So how would that work in terms of the heat sink. Three rows of heat sinks At 40-48 Length x 1 1/2-2 width? Maybe the first row could be 6 inches away from the front glass. 6",12" and the last row would be 18 Inches away from the front glass. 16 Led's per row at 3 inches apart. That would give me the 48 Led's you recommended. Plus the three MW 48D drivers to adjust them accordingly.

So with the PWM Controller, I would have to use three 48P's correct? It would just be easier and cleaner (less equipment) to have the three 48Ds?

Also, I want everything to be clean and out of sight. I plan on having a sleek looking cabinet next to my tank. I don't want the drivers and such to be inside the cabinet under my tank, is there anyway to run the drivers from the 2nd cabinet to the fixture but add some sort of quick disconnects so that if I decide to move things around I wont have to unscrew anything from the walls or cabinets? I'm sure I could but I guess I'm asking for specific how to's. I am not a DIYer and this will be my first DIY project.


Thanks RED and everyone else.


----------



## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> Three rows of heat sinks At 40-48 Length x 1 1/2-2 width? Maybe the first row could be 6 inches away from the front glass. 6",12" and the last row would be 18 Inches away from the front glass. 16 Led's per row at 3 inches apart. That would give me the 48 Led's you recommended. Plus the three MW 48D drivers to adjust them accordingly.


I think this is a good plan. Hard to say for sure but I can't see where it wouldn't work except for, perhaps, PAR spotlighting (won't be very visible to the eye), and this would only be an issue if you use really tight optics and put it too low over the water.



> So with the PWM Controller, I would have to use three 48P's correct? It would just be easier and cleaner (less equipment) to have the three 48Ds?


No, not cleaner with the 48D's. With the 48D you have to supply a voltage source (6-9v will work, NEVER exceeding 10v). Then splice in a 10K potentiometer. This can be a birdnest wire hell.

With the unit from RapidLED, all that work is done. You just run the lead wires where they need to go. Rapid can help you with that more than I but it would be simpler to do by far (once you figure out how the programming works).





> is there anyway to run the drivers from the 2nd cabinet to the fixture but add some sort of quick disconnects so that if I decide to move things around I wont have to unscrew anything from the walls or cabinets? I'm sure I could but I guess I'm asking for specific how to's. I am not a DIYer and this will be my first DIY project.


Don't exceed more than about 48" or so from the driver, and if you go more than a couple feet, use thicker wire for these leads (18AWG is great).

Yes, many inexpensive electrical connectors will work (Lowes has them, that's where I get them). I think some folks have used RCA connectors, which are beautifully easy to plug/unplug.... but be sure of the voltage/amperage ratings. 

I use the cheap pink connectors from Lowes for this very thing. However, I use different shaped connectors for each Meanwell so that there is 0% chance of me wiring them up wrong. You can also use colored electrical/duct tape to label them, which I wish I had thought of when I did my current array.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Not my picture but dimming D Drivers are super easy.


----------



## redfishsc

Multiply that out by 3, 4, 5 or more Meanwells and it gets to be a mess real quick unless the person designing it is a bit more clever than the average DIY'er. Fortunately you can run a bunch of them on a single DC power adapter, they just need different 10K pots.

But yes, individually they are fairly easy. Thanks for that pic, it will be helpful to many.

Even the "P" models using that RapidLED pwm controller could be a bit messy, but there's no 10K pot to wire in, so there's going to be a bit less tangle, and I think that controller can run up to 6 Meanwells (2 per channel).


----------



## FDNY911

Yea I think I'm going to go for the Ps with the controller. I saw a video on youtube with the pot hooked up and it was a ridiculous mess of wires. I hate wires! I will go with the 18AWG, as it will be maybe 5 feet of wiring even though it will probably be rolled up neatly. Better to have extra than not enough I always say!


----------



## Dragonstar

Thanks Steve; very useful link. I have created a build thread with some pics. More are in this gallery. It was difficult to get a good shot but they are the same as what is described in the document you linked to me as far as I can tell.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

FDNY911 said:


> Yea I think I'm going to go for the Ps with the controller. I saw a video on youtube with the pot hooked up and it was a ridiculous mess of wires. I hate wires! I will go with the 18AWG, as it will be maybe 5 feet of wiring even though it will probably be rolled up neatly. Better to have extra than not enough I always say!


 
How are you dimming the P Drivers?


----------



## FDNY911

Using the PWM Controller Audio mentioned. If I am understanding things correctly so far, the 48P is adjusted via the PWM Controller since it doesn't have the adjustment screw in the 48D which is adjusted via a potentiometer, right?

I'm a little slow lol.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Its about the same amount of wiring for both units.

Are you talking about this controller?

http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-159/DDC-dsh-01-PWM-Controller/Detail

The benefit of having the controller is you can set sunrise and sunset time but it cost $60 and can only dim it down to 15%-11%.

If you went the D route you could dim them down to about 5% and would be spending about $15 or less but you won't get the Sunrise Sunset effect unless you wake up and dim them manually.


----------



## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> Using the PWM Controller Audio mentioned. If I am understanding things correctly so far, the 48P is adjusted via the PWM Controller since it doesn't have the adjustment screw in the 48D which is adjusted via a potentiometer, right?
> 
> I'm a little slow lol.



Both the 48P and 48D have the internal SRV2 screw that is used to set the maximum current setting. I own both types and both have the screw, if that's what you're referring to.

The only difference between the two units is simply the format of current they interpret; the D interprets analog DC voltage changes, the P model interprets the PWM cycle.

In both of them you will definitely need to measure the max current preset on the Meanwell and use the SRV2 screw to set it to it's final resting place, usually 1,000 or 700mA depending on the LEDs you're using.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

I thought 975ma was the lowest the ELN drivers could go?


----------



## redfishsc

Not the 4 I have. I've gotten them down pretty low. I don't recall what the lowest low was but I think it was 500-600mA, and that's with a full 9.8v going into the dimmer (ie, 500-600mA max).


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Are you sure? According to spec sheet -25% of 1.3A should be 975ma. If your able to get them down that low your lucky, none of my 4 get down to that low.


----------



## redfishsc

Only if two different multimeters, and 3 different digital panel meters that I've used at various times are all wrong. I haven't systematically checked them all with various meters but I've played with them here and there as I've messed with the SRV2. 


Meanwell, just like Buckpucks, have been known to produce variable results although not as bad. A while back, the Buckpuck datasheets had bad data and caused a LOT of fried buckpucks. That, and Bucks are horrible at consistency. The 700mA buckpuck I have will give me anything from 600-800mA depending on how much load I give it. 


I really like the Meanwells but I'm not entirely sure they are the most consistent thing out there. The Thomas Research drivers should be a lot more predictable and I hope to get one to try it one day.


----------



## FDNY911

Hey red would half NW and half CWs be good for this tank? Or should I add other colors to it?


----------



## FDNY911

What do you guys think about this link for a package. I still would need to get the Heatsinks and the PWM separately.

http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-32/48-Premium-LED-DIY/Detail

I would have to ask them to change the color of LEDs.

I noticed that these drivers can only handle a minimum of 8 and a max of 14 LEDs. So my plan for 16 LEDs per each of the three, 1.1"x 48" heatsinks wouldn't work. So 14 LEDs at 3.5" apart would give me the safe amount needed, totaling 42 LED's.

Is it worth getting the kit of better to continue getting all the pieces individually?


----------



## FDNY911

Rapid LED Items
Qty	SKU	Description	Price	Total


3	1-48HS 1.1" x 48" Aluminum Heatsink $44.00 $132.00


1	DDC-01 DDC-01 PWM Controller $59.00 $59.00


3	ELN-60-48P Mean Well ELN-60-48P dimmable driver $34.00 $102.00


21	CW-107-CREE-LENS CREE XR-E Q5 Cool White 3W LED with White Lens $6.75 $141.75

Sub-Total $434.75
ESTIMATED SHIPPING	$0.00
Rapid LED ESTIMATED TOTAL	$434.75

***********************************************************

this is individually choosing everything. They don't have anymore Neutral White XPGs at the moment. How are the CW XR-E's? I'll probably have the light at 36 inches off the substrate, so what size lens would be good for the XR-es? 40, 65 and 80 are the sizes they have.

So I need another 21 LED's with lenses. I am going to check back on that other website for the predilled heatsinks. I don't want to glue them on.

I have the same Multimeter already and a few power cords. A hanging Kit as well.

$600 is my limit. What do you guys think?


Just saw on GroupLEDbuy.com that they have the newer more efficient XM-l for the $6.80 a pop. Would that be a better bang for the buck instead of the XRE or the XPG?


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

remember, those XR-E's have a max current of 1000ma, so if you run them higher you'll blow them. I would go w/ xp-g since you'll have some wiggle room, plus right now they're cheaper than xr-e's at rapidled anyways


----------



## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> Hey red would half NW and half CWs be good for this tank? Or should I add other colors to it?


The plants won't care about the NW vs. CW, both will work fine. A 50/50 mix will work fine as long as you don't spread them out too far apart. 

As for colors, I REALLY REALLY prefer to have a few blue LEDs in there on their own separate dimmable driver, just to adjust the color temp. I prefer more blue in my tanks than most other folks. 

However it's not necessary at all. 

You can probably start out with the 14 LEDs per driver, 3 drivers, with the RapidLED pwm dimmer. 


If you find that you need more light you can always add another driver/array later. 


The XMLs' you mentioned are nice and I would heartily recommend them as long as you can get the 60 degree optics from LEDgroupbuy.com.

You can actually run 16 XML's on a single Meanwell ELN60-48 model, they have a much lower forward voltage than the XPG. 

The optics aren't cheap for them though but they are the most efficient LED out there that I've seen.


----------



## FDNY911

$385 for 42 of the T6 XML
$285 for 42 of the T5 XML

Difference in the T5 and T6 is the T6 has 280lm Flux @700ma and the T5 has 260lm @700ma. Is that worth the extra 100?????? I cant see my self stretching my budget for an extra 20lm. What do you think? I would like to order everything next week. I apologize for the pestering lol!


----------



## [email protected]

It would only be pestering if everyone else knew the answers. Since we're all learning from each other, questions are good.


----------



## eklu65

FDNY911 said:


> $385 for 42 of the T6 XML
> $285 for 42 of the T5 XML
> 
> Difference in the T5 and T6 is the T6 has 280lm Flux @700ma and the T5 has 260lm @700ma. Is that worth the extra 100?????? I cant see my self stretching my budget for an extra 20lm. What do you think? I would like to order everything next week. I apologize for the pestering lol!


Are you also factoring in the optics for XM-L? If you have a tank over 20" high, it was recommended earlier in this thread to get optics. The optics for the XM-L are pretty pricey at the moment as well, might want to reconsider your options a bit.


----------



## audioaficionado

FDNY911 said:


> $385 for 42 of the T6 XML
> $285 for 42 of the T5 XML
> 
> Difference in the T5 and T6 is the T6 has 280lm Flux @700ma and the T5 has 260lm @700ma. Is that worth the extra 100?????? I cant see my self stretching my budget for an extra 20lm. What do you think? I would like to order everything next week. I apologize for the pestering lol!


Save the $100 and use it to buy the optics.


----------



## redfishsc

FDNY911 said:


> $385 for 42 of the T6 XML
> $285 for 42 of the T5 XML
> 
> Difference in the T5 and T6 is the T6 has 280lm Flux @700ma and the T5 has 260lm @700ma. Is that worth the extra 100?????? I cant see my self stretching my budget for an extra 20lm. What do you think? I would like to order everything next week. I apologize for the pestering lol!


No, not worth it at all. Even the T5 is drastically more efficient than most other LEDs out there, except for the Rebel ES and Cree XPG..... and even they kneel before the XML T5.

Having the T6 is only going to net you the ability to say that you have the best of the best of the best when it comes to efficiency, and that will only last you for a few months until someone develops something that trumps it. 

I think the XML will eventually be the standard we all use for new builds in the coming year if optic prices go down any. People chuffed at the XPG when it first came out, screaming that the XRE was good enough (and, it was!) but the XPG is just so nice.





[email protected] said:


> It would only be pestering if everyone else knew the answers. Since we're all learning from each other, questions are good.



+1,000! I pestered so many people. Freely you have received, freely you shall give. I try to live by that:icon_mrgr




eklu65 said:


> Are you also factoring in the optics for XM-L? If you have a tank over 20" high, it was recommended earlier in this thread to get optics. The optics for the XM-L are pretty pricey at the moment as well, might want to reconsider your options a bit.


LEDgroupbuy.com is now taking orders for them for $2.50. I haven't seen them and I don't know how nice they are, but $2.50 is a "middle road" price. 

It should be lower than that, but Milad is probably having to search all over heck and half of Georgia to find them.


----------



## stoli

redfishsc said:


> Not the 4 I have. I've gotten them down pretty low. I don't recall what the lowest low was but I think it was 500-600mA, and that's with a full 9.8v going into the dimmer (ie, 500-600mA max).


 
I also gotta ask you how you got it that low, I tested 6 drivers and none of them were able to go that low. They didn't all get the same values on the lowest setting when I turned the svr2 pot but none of them were able to get your numbers. Maybe different batch of drivers?


----------



## redfishsc

Could be inconsistency (see post #134), and I'm pretty sure mine aren't all that consistent but they all go fairly low. Keep in mind that I use 9v wall warts instead of 10v since the SRV2 allows you to adjust the sensitivity to the reference voltage. 

Since mine were only getting 9v, and if you guys were using 10v, that might be allowing me to go about 10% lower, which could be as much as 100mA lower. 

If you really want to make dead-nuts certain that you never exceed a specific current, that's fairly simple. Just use a lower voltage DC input. You should be able to adjust the SRV2 screw such that something like 6v input (as your max DC input) gives you a max of 600mA. Splice in a good 10K pot (especially a multiturn pot) and you've effectively set an upper limit that won't be exceeded as long as you never swap out the DC power supply for a stronger one.


----------



## boink

I dont see how you would get 5-600mA. If you input a 9V signal into 1.3A driver with SRV2 at -25%, from the math I can only see .8775mA. Maybe I am missing something regarding how you are wiring things.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Do you have them in parallel? 

1.3A or 1A in two strings would come out to about those values.


----------



## redfishsc

boink said:


> I dont see how you would get 5-600mA. If you input a 9V signal into 1.3A driver with SRV2 at -25%, from the math I can only see .8775mA. Maybe I am missing something regarding how you are wiring things.





Im2Nelson4u said:


> Do you have them in parallel?
> 
> 1.3A or 1A in two strings would come out to about those values.


No, just in series. 13 LEDs per driver.

I understand what you guys are saying--- we went through this exact same discussion on Nano-reef.com when folks like me started getting these numbers, but what you're doing is giving the datasheets on the Meanwells a bit too much credit. 

Perhaps I (and others) have anomalous drivers, but I don't think that they are all as cut-n-dry as the tolerance from the datasheet suggests. I think they vary more than the datasheet would lead us to suspect. 


I would suggest you give nanotuners a call and ask them why they stopped carrying the Meanwells. They have had them show up putting out all sorts of variable currents, then drifting in their settings over time (max current increasing), etc...---- they can be a bit unpredictable right out of the box.


Don't get me wrong, they are very good drivers, but I never trust them out of the box. The datasheet is giving you what is probably the minimum variance, but I think they frequently have a lot more room for adjustment. 



Buckpucks had a similar problem a couple years ago, they had all kinds of bad data on their voltage requirements, leading to fried Buckpucks left and right. 


And a couple months ago I fried a $15 LED from Satistronics because their datasheet said (and STILL says) the wrong forward voltage. They corrected one of their pages but the faulty data sheet is still up on a different part of their site. 


All this to say, datasheets are WONDERFUL but don't take them as absolute gospel.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Yea I know the data sheets can be off but like you I tested all my drivers but none of my drivers ever had those issues. I gave Powergate a ring and they told me that they do vary a bit from driver to driver but not drastically like what you have. 

Maybe I was lucky and got a good batch or there was a bad batch that went out. I know that they sometimes get overwhelmed with orders and have to convert regular eln to the dimmable versions.


----------



## bustah8

Hey Red,

Are you using solid or stranded wire to string the leds? Also if you saw the pre cut thermal tape at ledgroupbuy?


----------



## redfishsc

I use stranded wire. A bit easier for me to solder. I've seen it done with solid core though.


For thermal tape I just buy Bergquist Bond-Ply from www.newark.com, it comes in a 6X6" square that makes for around 30-40 pads if you cut them with an exacto-knife or paper-slicer. About half the price of the precut stuff.

Nanotuners has carried the precuts for a while also, they are were I first got it from.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Hey do you think a 0.5"x 4"x6" aluminum block can keep 8 XP-G cool?


----------



## audioaficionado

Maxed out: 1.5amps x 3.55forward volts x 8 = 42.6Watts (pg 5 on spec sheet .pdf)

Does your block have cooling fins, have a fan, if not, is it enclosed or in the open air?


----------



## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> Hey do you think a 0.5"x 4"x6" aluminum block can keep 8 XP-G cool?


Like audioaficionado said, fans and fins would help. By "block" I assume it's just a slab of aluminum. 


Chances are it will work as long as you don't run these things full throttle, and I would definitely put a fan on it. I might even use a table saw to cut some 1/8-1/4" thick kerf marks in the aluminum to make "fins". 

The only sure way to know is to try, unless someone can calculate this up in a way that is beyond my intelligence.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Hmmm, I guess I can look up the thermal conductivity of aluminium and figure out how fast my slab can dissapate heat but with so little surface area... 

www.*cree*.com/products/pdf/XLamp*ThermalManagement*.pdf

I guess I can tap a single slab or use some thermal tape and give it a try. Gotta dig out that old thermalcouple...


----------



## audioaficionado

My rule of thumb for chips is if you can't keep one of your digits on it, you need to make it cooler.


----------



## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> I guess I can tap a single slab or use some thermal tape and give it a try. Gotta dig out that old thermalcouple...



Since you are working with something that will have, at best, minimal numbers of fins (or no fins at all) then I would recommend you use something more thermally conductive than thermal tape or epoxy. 

In your case I'd be tempted to drill and tap, and then use a good brand thermal paste.


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

I'm just gonna use the tape temporarily, if it doesn't work I don't want to waste my slab of aluminium.

Also I'm too lazy to go buy artic silver and tap it. It's just so much work, if it works I'll probably tap it and do it properly.

I'm just wondering how ELOS keep's their system cool. This thing is suppose to be 18 LEDs at 160w wow


----------



## Tbakes

New design / help request for LED lighting of 178G tank - 60"x24"x28".

So, I've been toying with the notion of going LED with this new-to-me tank that has been sitting in my house for 2 months... I was set on T5HO, but the idea of changing bulbs every year or so, and the slightly less efficiency has me looking at LED. Plus, the wife says I can get what I want!!  How often does that happen!! :bounce:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/tank-journals-photo-album/132761-new-me-178g-oceanic-ultimate-first.html

I've exchanged a few messages with Redfish, but in the spirit of info sharing, I'm going to post here.

Initial questions:

(1) Is Aaron, the guy that built Jose's cool custom drivers / power supply on PT.net and or is there someone out there willing to make me a similar system?

(2) In lieu of the first, I'm a pretty good DIYer, though I haven't made circuit boards in a long time. I also have twin toddlers that limit my "hobby" time, so buying an off-the-shelf driver package is more likely than full DIY. Is it possible to use Meanwell 48Ps along with a microcontroller (aeurdino or the ilk)? I do plan on using a reef-keeper type controller since I will have automated dosing and possibly water changer in the future.

(3) How many and what type of LEDs - Red thought about 72+. One caveat on design - I plan on an enclosed or semi-enclosed hood / canopy to limit light scatter since this is near my TV room. I am planning on a "behind the tank" access through a closet. I could potentially have the brains / cooling located in the closed. This means that I will likely not have much height above the water to work with - maybe 6-7" max. 

Finally, here is a photo of the tank and current canopy. I might be totally re-doing that, so not a constraint:









Thanks in advance - looking forward to learning / sharing as we go!

-Tony


----------



## redfishsc

Tbakes said:


> (2) In lieu of the first, I'm a pretty good DIYer, though I haven't made circuit boards in a long time. I also have twin toddlers that limit my "hobby" time, so buying an off-the-shelf driver package is more likely than full DIY. Is it possible to use Meanwell 48Ps along with a microcontroller (aeurdino or the ilk)? I do plan on using a reef-keeper type controller since I will have automated dosing and possibly water changer in the future.


Before you go head-over-heels on a Reefkeeper ALC module, please look into whether the ALC is able to handle it. I have read reports that the ALC module works WONDERFULLY for Meanwells and other reports say it fails. 

One local hobbyist that I helped build an array for definitely had an ALC module failure running 4 Meanwell dimmer circuits. 

The suspicion is that the ALC module isn't designed to handle much output. The Meanwell dimmers only draw a tiny amount of current but supposedly will still overwhelm the ALC module. 

Some have great success, others have not. Please look into that before you decide. 

And if you go with the RK ALC module, DO NOT buy the ELN60-48P. Get the D model. The P will work fine with the pwm module from RapidLED.com just fine though and you don't need the ALC module. 

If you can handle doing Arduinos, yes this is DEFINITELY doable and has been done many times (not by me, that's over my head for now). You will want the P models for this also and you will need to build the Arduino with a boosted voltage. They come with a 5v output and you need 10v.



> (3) How many and what type of LEDs - Red thought about 72+. One caveat on design - I plan on an enclosed or semi-enclosed hood / canopy to limit light scatter since this is near my TV room. I am planning on a "behind the tank" access through a closet. I could potentially have the brains / cooling located in the closed. This means that I will likely not have much height above the water to work with - maybe 6-7" max.


Regarding the height of your tank (deep!), you will probably want optics to get the light down deep, but you cannot use narrow optics with your canopy height (too low). Nothing lower than 60 degrees. And put them as high up as you can inside that 7" max height. 

Your other option is to use exclusively Cree XRE LEDs. They come with a 90-degree primary optic built in (most others are 120 degrees) and these, without any secondary optic, will work fine I'm sure. They are only a touch less efficient than the latest and greatest and it's not enough to worry about.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

I have my light about 30 inches off the substrate and I still get fairly good lighting (about 50-60umols) at substrate using cree xp-g at 1050ma. The tank is only 18in. deep though, but doesn't water increase the par? Do you still need the optics?


----------



## redfishsc

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> I have my light about 30 inches off the substrate and I still get fairly good lighting (about 50-60umols) at substrate using cree xp-g at 1050ma. The tank is only 18in. deep though, but doesn't water increase the par? Do you still need the optics?


Good to know. The final intensity (even with the given 30" height, drive current, and LED type) will vary depending on the number and spacing of the LEDs. 

Can you remind us how many LEDs you have.... what footprint your tank is..... and what kind of pattern you have the LEDs spaced on?


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

I have a total of 24 leds. 12 in each "row" along a 32 inch long heatsink. So I'm thinking anywhere from 2.5 to 3 inches of space b/w each LED. The rows are about 4 inches part.

The tank is 36x18 foot print


----------



## redfishsc

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> I have a total of 24 leds. 12 in each "row" along a 32 inch long heatsink. So I'm thinking anywhere from 2.5 to 3 inches of space b/w each LED. The rows are about 4 inches part.
> 
> The tank is 36x18 foot print



Ok, great, thanks!

So over 36X18 (648 square inches) you have 24 LEDs. So that's 1 LED per 27 square inches. 

If we replicate your LED density (1 LED per 27sq inch) and we follow this pattern of using single rows (2.5-3" between the LEDs) and space the rows 4" apart, and put them 30" over the substrate, we should get similar PAR numbers using the same LEDs and same drive current. 

This would be 53 LEDs (he has a 60X24 footprint, 1440 sq inches). 

Unfortunately his tank is 28" deep, so 30" from the substrate is cutting it a bit close. 

If he were to increase the number of LEDs then he should be able to raise the array up a bit higher (to maybe 34" from the substrate, 5-6" from water surface). 


A scientific wild-ass guess would put us back at the 65-72 LEDs, without optics, using XPG's at 1050mA. Spacing them closer together than IWANNAGOFAST to get a more dense light output.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

audioaficionado said:


> My rule of thumb for chips is if you can't keep one of your digits on it, you need to make it cooler.


I have 12 xpg led's running at 1050ma on a 30 x 4.26 inch heat sink from heatsinkusa. It does get pretty hot should i get fans?


----------



## audioaficionado

How hot is the heatsink by the LEDs? 
When you touch the LED, does it burn you?


----------



## redfishsc

Rockhoe14er said:


> I have 12 xpg led's running at 1050ma on a 30 x 4.26 inch heat sink from heatsinkusa. It does get pretty hot should i get fans?


Without the aid of an infrared sensor to spot check the heatsink, most of us DIY'ers will say that "pretty hot" is bad. Not catastrophic, though. Most likely the LED's are "ok" but it would be a good idea to put a fan on them. It will help preserve their longer life. 


Also note that a hot LED is less efficient, so it's another reason to consider a fan.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

do you just lay the fan down on the heat sink? or is there a better orientation?


----------



## redfishsc

I prefer laying it right on it and having it blow downward onto the fins. I'm not sure the actual orientation of the fan itself is too big of a deal, and if you wanted to set it 3-4" off the heatsink to attempt a wider cooling area, that would probably work as well. 

If the heatsink is not visible and is hidden behind a canopy, I just use duct tape to stick the fans on it. Easily removable, just don't cover the fan too much. Duct tape covering the fins a few inches is OK since it just forms a "tunnel" for the air to flow through.


----------



## audioaficionado

HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer with Laser goes on sale for as little as $26 every so often.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

that's close to the price of just getting a fan to cool it so I guess i just get a fan.


----------



## audioaficionado

It's not a use just once tool


----------



## redfishsc

audioaficionado said:


> HARBOR FREIGHT TOOLS Non-Contact Infrared Thermometer with Laser goes on sale for as little as $26 every so often.



I forgot about those. We have a high dollar digital thermocouple at work that I could compare this thing against. We actually have an infrared sensor as well but it's not the HF model.


FWIW this is a nifty tool to have around.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

what are appropriate temps for the heat sink?


----------



## redfishsc

I measure the temp on the back side (opposite the LED) on the thinnest portion I can, directly behind an LED where it will be the hottest. 

I personally don't want that spot to be any hotter than 100-120F if possible. On a thicker heatsink like I use (3/8" thick) this is quite easy to do.

The reason is because it's hard to say "heatsink needs to be at XYZ temp" because of all the variables. The LEDs will definitely be hotter just behind the emitter, where we can't measure with an IR probe. 


My standard is quite cool and I'm sure they can take much warmer temps than this, but it's so easy to keep them cool that I think it's just a good idea to do it. Most of us have spare 12v wall warts laying around and fans are $5 each or less.


----------



## Tbakes

Thanks for the comments folks!

So - 72-76 LEDs. Now, in terms of control - I need to do some research on the Arduinos. I'd really prefer to pay someone to make this for me - so if anyone is outthere, feel free to PM me.

Thanks

Tony


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

How do you hook up those 12v power dealies to a fan w/out using the connectors and stuff that you buy from rapidled? Or do you just have to buy them from rapid led?


----------



## [email protected]

Many computer supply places sell fan connecters, couplers, splitters, etc. 
I just use wire cutters, wire stripper, solder, and heat shrink tubing.


----------



## audioaficionado

Here's several listed.

Just find an old WW you don't need anymore, cut the plug off and wire it to the fan.

This is a good thread on it.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

oh, so you can just wire them in... interesting... lol

care to show a pic of how it's done? I have a bunch of the wall warts at home just sitting around.


----------



## redfishsc

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> How do you hook up those 12v power dealies to a fan w/out using the connectors and stuff that you buy from rapidled? Or do you just have to buy them from rapid led?



I just cut the wires and splice them together. I prefer to slide on a 2" piece of heatshrink, wrap the wires together end-to-end, solder them, and heat the heatshrink. Finding heatshrink that's thin enough can be a challenge sometimes though.


----------



## Rockhoe14er

radio shack has a lot of thin heatshrink.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

ok cool. Is there a certain way to wire it up? Like are there + or - leads?


----------



## redfishsc

Not on DC fans like this. If you wire them "backwards" they just run backwards, which means you just flip them over.


----------



## audioaficionado

You can also use crimp-on connectors if the environment isn't too wet and humid.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

oh cool. Now I feel like a fool for wasting money buying those clips and stuff...


----------



## Im2Nelson4u

Tbakes said:


> Thanks for the comments folks!
> 
> So - 72-76 LEDs. Now, in terms of control - I need to do some research on the Arduinos. I'd really prefer to pay someone to make this for me - so if anyone is outthere, feel free to PM me.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Tony


What do you want the arduino to do? Did you want Auto sunrise sunset with timer or just manual dimming?


For Timer you need at minimum a DS1307 RTC Module, any Arduino, 2n2222 Transistor, LM317 Regulator, and a couple of resisters, and a HD44780 LCD would be nice for telling time.

For manual Dimming you just repalce the DS1307 with a 100K Multi Turn Potentiometer


----------



## redfishsc

Im2Nelson4u said:


> For manual Dimming you just repalce the DS1307 with a 100K Multi Turn Potentiometer


For manual dimming, the Meanwell "D" model is going to be much easier to do since it uses a standard analog 0-10v (in reality anything putting out 6-10v will work if you adjust the internal SRV2 screw, 6v input on the dimmer can be adjusted to be "full power" for us, 1,000mA).

I know you already know this Nelson  I'm just mentioning it for others reading.


----------



## reybie

Hmm, now I'm really tempted to diy a fixture for my 20 long. It's for low light plants and mainly houses shrimps, divided into 3 compartments. Would 2 LED per compartment be ok for me to see the shrimps? Hmm what about 3 per and just get a dimmable driver?


----------



## Rockhoe14er

Honestly what you might be able to get away with is 4 LED's with the moonlight driver at 350 ma. Iwannagofast did this on a smaller tank using optics and got pretty good par readings. The only problem i see if you might get spot lighting with such few LED's.


----------



## redfishsc

reybie said:


> Hmm, now I'm really tempted to diy a fixture for my 20 long. It's for low light plants and mainly houses shrimps, divided into 3 compartments. Would 2 LED per compartment be ok for me to see the shrimps? Hmm what about 3 per and just get a dimmable driver?


He's right, you don't need much at all. 1 LED per compartment would work for "viewing"

If you want a dimmable driver, a Buckpuck will work b/c most other dimmable drivers are going to need to run 6 more more LEDs (depending on the driver). 


You probably don't need a dimmable driver though, if you mostly just need viewing light. 

If you need something for photosynthesis, you'll want 8-12 LEDs minimum and drive them at 500-700mA


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

4 LEDs at 350ma is very dim for a 20 long. It's bright enough over my mini m but it has to be almost touching the water. 

The meanwell 700ma driver can do as few as 3 LEDs, so 2 per compartment should be more than fine, esp if you're just doing easy plants or for viewing.


----------



## reybie

I will have very low clearance space above the tank (under a kitchen cabinet), about 3.5" only, so it will probably be sitting on top of the tank.

I have anubias nana petite on driftwood and that's about it as far as plants, not very demanding as far as light goes but I also would like to be able to see the shrimps (baby ones too).


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Well at about 14 inches away, I was getting about 20umols of par using the 350ma driver which should be fine for low light plants.

The only issue might be the spread of light.


----------



## Tbakes

Update-

Since I was inspired to go LED with Jose's slick setup complete with custom drivers and Arduino control, I decided to go with the same custom drivers (sourced from O2Surplus) and arduino! In the "parts buying" stage and want to finalize my LED order with LEDgroupbuy.

So, what is the general consensus on XPG colors avail from LEDgroupbuy - currently cool white, warm white and neutral white are offered. I'll have 12 strings of 6 LEDS with individual dimming control of each of the 12 strings. I'd also like to add a few Royal Blue XREs to the mix, though I do have a a 3x4 Current Actinic LED unit avail to run as a moonlight / source of blue. Not sure it will be adequate though.

Also - I am also toying with re-doing the canopy, which will allow me to go up to 12" above water line for the LEDs. Should I still go with 60 degree optics? Do I need them for all of the LEDs, or just the perimeter?

Thoughts?

-Tony


----------



## redfishsc

Tbakes said:


> So, what is the general consensus on XPG colors avail from LEDgroupbuy - currently cool white, warm white and neutral white are offered. I'll have 12 strings of 6 LEDS with individual dimming control of each of the 12 strings. I'd also like to add a few Royal Blue XREs to the mix, though I do have a a 3x4 Current Actinic LED unit avail to run as a moonlight / source of blue. Not sure it will be adequate though.



If you like blue, a 1:3 or 1:4 ratio of blue/white is good, as long your blues are on their own dimmable circuits and have no optics (or use wider optics than the whites).

I prefer cool or neutral white. Neutral white will give better color rendering but will want more blue to balance it out, but I think a 1:4 ratio blue/white will work great.



> Also - I am also toying with re-doing the canopy, which will allow me to go up to 12" above water line for the LEDs. Should I still go with 60 degree optics? Do I need them for all of the LEDs, or just the perimeter?
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> -Tony


At 12" yes, 60-degree optics will do fine on the whites. 

These are easy to figure too. A 60 degree optic will give you 1" of footprint for every 1" of distance from the LED (along the side of the triangle). At 12" from the LED you'll get somewhere between 10-12" of footprint per LED, which is decent. 

See this site, works like a charm.

http://ostermiller.org/calc/triangle.html


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## Tbakes

Thanks Red - so you think I could do 18 Royal Blue XPEs and 54 Neutral White XPGs and with the individual dimming (both PWM and analog on the new drivers) achieve a good balance? 

Anyone know of a source for heatsink or scrap aluminum in the greater Philly area? I know of a cool metal yard up in the Lehigh Valley that I could try, but if anyone has any suggestions, I am ears. Otherwise will order online.


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## redfishsc

Tbakes said:


> Thanks Red - so you think I could do 18 Royal Blue XPEs and 54 Neutral White XPGs and with the individual dimming (both PWM and analog on the new drivers) achieve a good balance?




Yes, I think that would be fine, especially if you like the higher K temp look that is often seen in Amano's (and similar) tanks. 

The nice thing is, it's infinitely adjustable and the royal blue gives a very strong PAR punch. Will compliment the neutral whites nicely.


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## Tbakes

So, per Aaron, due to the voltage differences, I would need to segregate the Royal Blue XREs to a single driver board, so would need a 48 white to 24 blue mix. I am just worried I'd have too much blue... 

Red - you ever see a planted tank with that high a mix? That is 1:3.


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## redfishsc

My own 11g rimless is a 50/50 mix. You just dim down the blues more, that's all. More blues is actually better because of better color blending, but dimmability is required. You won't run the blues anywhere close to full current. 

I'm curious about why the voltage difference between the blues and whites means you have to put them on a different driver board. If you are wiring them in series (and NOT parallel) then you should be able to mix-n-match any LED of any voltage as long as you don't max out the driver's voltage output. I know on any of the LED drivers I've ever seen you can run 20 watt LEDs alongside of 3w LEDs all day long without a problem.

If he has you running these in parallel strings then that makes things a bit different.

Just how many drivers are you using, and how many LEDs can be run per driver board? The blues and whites have similar forward voltages.


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## reybie

redfishsc said:


> He's right, you don't need much at all. 1 LED per compartment would work for "viewing"
> 
> If you want a dimmable driver, a Buckpuck will work b/c most other dimmable drivers are going to need to run 6 more more LEDs (depending on the driver).
> 
> 
> You probably don't need a dimmable driver though, if you mostly just need viewing light.
> 
> If you need something for photosynthesis, you'll want 8-12 LEDs minimum and drive them at 500-700mA


Ok, I was browsing around for ideas on what I could use for mounting and came across this u channel from Amazon. I can have this sit on top of my 20 long and possible mount 2 stars per compartment (i have it divided into 3) for a total of 6 LEDs. I have some mosses and anubias so I need a little bit more light than 1 LED but I didn't want to overdo it and grow algae also.


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## redfishsc

Yeah that would work fine since you won't be putting a lot of LED's on it. 

You might find it cheaper (or bigger, for the same price) at places that sell aluminum building materials.


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## Tbakes

redfishsc said:


> I'm curious about why the voltage difference between the blues and whites means you have to put them on a different driver board. If you are wiring them in series (and NOT parallel) then you should be able to mix-n-match any LED of any voltage as long as you don't max out the driver's voltage output. I know on any of the LED drivers I've ever seen you can run 20 watt LEDs alongside of 3w LEDs all day long without a problem.
> 
> If he has you running these in parallel strings then that makes things a bit different.
> 
> Just how many drivers are you using, and how many LEDs can be run per driver board? The blues and whites have similar forward voltages.


Red - yes, so far it looks like the plan is in series.









Aaron indicated that we can adjust the voltage from the PS to be within 0.5 volts of the voltage drop across the string to keep the driver chips to be cool. The drivers can handle it, but will run hot. So would be ideal to dedicate 1 driver and 1 PS to the XREs.

As you can see from above, there will be 4 strings per driver, 3 drivers for a total of 72 LEDs. This will be run off of 2 Meanwell 24V 13a power supplies.

(hopefully Aaron doens't care that I am posting this pic - it is his design).

-Tony


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## Tbakes

-Update for my build:

LED order placed
Power supplies arrived
Arduino and RTC module arrived.

Need to source:
Heatsinks / aluminum scrap
Wire / connectors (if anyone has a good recommendation for connectors to wire from the control box to the hood - would love help!)
Project box

Finally - I need to start designing the hood itself. Accessibility and glare prevention will be key design criteria.

-Tony


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