# Tiny Planted Bowls and Reef Bowls



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

How many people on this board work with nano aquariums> I have been working with gallon and sub-gallon saltwater and planted systems and come to see if there are any pico planters out there.

Have pics of my planted and terrarium bowls too, but heres a reefbowl for starters. Neat to see a new BB, new to me anyway.

Nice to meet you.

Brandon


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

The terrarium bowl has a small circulatory system that pumps nutrient-rich water (out of my 75g planted) into the column. This circulates as a tiny, well-oxygenated waterfall over the driftwood tower and back again as it drips through the substrate (modeling groundwater percolation) down to a tiny powerhead and return hose.

The planted bowl is sealed and has no circulation. Root convection is provided by spacing the bowl over a small candle warmer, lighting is one 13watt Azoo Galaxy light 7700K pc. Excellent little $20 light setup from 

www.aquaticeco.com


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

The reefbowl houses 17 varieties of soft and stony coral and is unfiltered, unskimmed, and non-exported except for bi-weekly water changes. 1.5 years old

Terrariumbowl houses arthropods like pill bugs and crickets as well as a few earthworms. 3-4 varieties bog plants. 

Planted bowl has aquatic plants: echinodorus, crypts wendtii and lutea, hairgrass, cardamine, rotala, microsorium, anubias x2. One medium dwarf frog, fed lightly with pellets each week--2.2 years old system. No algae, three month water changes (I am at one with nitrogen OOOOOHM) 

Dripped a little Kent Blue and Pink bottles (pro-grow and MN support) every once in a while.


----------



## STAT 007 (Feb 26, 2003)

Sorry, but uh...what exactly is the point of these things? No fish, right? Don't mean to sound rude, just not sure why they exist.


----------



## Work In Progress (Mar 4, 2003)

Wow, never seen anything like that before! :shock: 
Here I go thinking 5g was gonna be small.....

Pretty neat!



> what exactly is the point of these things? No fish, right? Don't mean to sound rude, just not sure why they exist.


Well they are planted, so I think Brandon has come to the right place. Some people are in it for the plants, some are in it for the fish and of course some are in it for both. I think it is neat and would have never thought it possible. Way to go! roud: 

Kelly


----------



## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Brandon; I think those bowls are real cool, Especially the mini reef. 8) 

Stat: I guess the point is they're really neat to look at. 

I don't know a thing about growing coral, but I've got to imagine that growing them in a vase must be a hell of a challenge.


Marcel


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Hello guys, this is a common question I get asked all the time!

These are experimental systems that are designed to model the dynamics of much larger systems in an aquarium you can pick up completely full and move it to a different table. Keeping stony corals is much more challenging than keeping SW fish, and its easy to deduce that anywhere a coral can grow a fish would happily live. There is less maintenance by not having a fish in the saltwater bowl...

Typically, small aquariums are a challenge to keep vital for years without plagues of algae and plant die-back. The entire goal is removing pumps and filters from the equation to rely solely on biological design to create a no hassle aquarium of any kind, even saltwater. Im not as concerned with having fish to look at as I am in looking at a thriving aquascape (corals and plants). My little dwarf frog has more than enough character and nitrogen output for his system--the fun is in making a one-gallon environment just as stable and life-supporting as any 5-30 gallon out there. You know that phrase less technology, more biology? I have that tattooed on my shoulder. j/k

The longevity of these systems and the ability to support lush, green growth is why I keep 'em around.
Even in my 75g heavily planted tank I could care less about fish. My aquatic turtles have neat behaviors, and all I have for them to munch on is a continually-renewing family of wild-type guppies. I only _use_ fish for a N bioload, never cared much about speciation... but I know many people are the opposite--when they come over they say "wheres the fish?"
One mans ____ is anothers ______, thats how the story goes.

(sigh)
Brandon


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

*OUTSTANDING !!!* :shock: 

Thats all I can say... the smaller they are the more difficult they can be and they just dont get any smaller then that ... very nice Brandon !
The neat thing about these is that they are challenging to get the balance with so little water to work with, and a mini reef ? :shock: I didnt think that would be possible!


> Root convection is provided by spacing the bowl over a small candle warmer


 This is just Awesome :!: 

Very impressive Brandon, thanks for sharing them with us...

*Buck* 8)


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Thanks guys and gals (Kelly!) I wish I would have found your site a lot sooner. Googled "Planted tanks" and whamo here I am.

Have been keeping planted systems much longer than SW systems, and this board has tons of neat info. Ill be hanging out here to make up for lost time...


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Perhaps I should post some measurements of my various experimental ecosystems, the ones you see above are in betta-vases bought from Wal Mart. Please escuse the pics of SW systems, I realize this is a FW board but very soon these systems will be linked via capture and drip lines to share water and nutrients between the various bowls/containers--making for one large (or very small) ecosphere where all nutrients are shared and water is recirculated.

For example, as a SW reef evaporates it needs to be topped off with FW to maintain the salinity in check (corals are very picky). The terrarium bowl has almost constant 100% humidity, and this can be harnessed to drip back into the reefbowl (at a controlled rate) to keep it stable while making use of the humidity in the terrarium bowl. Evaporated water in the partially-sealed reef bowl can be routed to the planted bowl and ran through a small custom-designed condenser to get it back into liquified form.

PS, the tiny 9-inch aquarium is the smallest stony coral aquarium ITW. even though it has no fish, Id like to pose the idea that growing acropora in a 1/2 gallon sealed environment carries some merit for the tiny balance...


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Heres a measure of the reefbowl, the planted terrarium and tank are in the same size container--standard betta vase with lily removed....


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

And in the expression of utmost irony, Id like to state it is cruel to keep a betta in a Lee's Dual Betta hex but perfectly acceptable to keep a few small corals and inverts (SW) in one...corals are not a heavy bioload in a system so its not much different than a setup with just rock and water. Betta excretion will challenge a setup of this size and stress the animal, although they are pretty touch and can tolerate some ambient ammonia without dying. Corals do not exude nearly a tenth as much waste as one small betta, so even this is a thriving ecosystem.

Brandon M


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

You are *The King Of Mini* Brandon !

Your collection of tanks deserves much more then *"Merit"* , I am giving you a standing ovation right now my friend... its just real hard to type while standing and clapping ! :lol: :lol: 

That last little acrylic one with the pencil next to it is just like the setup I recently saw at my LFS and am considering getting... but I can guarantee you it wont be a reef ! :shock: I will be happy if I get it to stay algae free and healthy! What is a water change in that?.... 2 straws full? :lol: 

Those setups are inspiring !


----------



## Work In Progress (Mar 4, 2003)

I really luv the itty bitty one! That is just too cool!

Kelly


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Thanks tons Buck and Kelly  These systems are much more affordable than larger ones--a main reason I like this kind...

I wanted to highlight a concept I use in the tiny reefs that may work well for pico/nano planted tanks. Each of my system uses a hidden internal refugium to process internal wastes--nitrogen compounds and gases for example. pH shift is a critical factor to be controlled in small aquariums, and planted nanos using relatively soft water will be subject to quite a swing that can otherwise avoided by using a FW refugium. The idea is to light it continually from behind, even opposite of the main frontal display. One might use hortwort for a packing in the reugium part, and just let it fill up the refugium then export it from time to time. The constant photosynthetic activity will stabilize the main display even through the acidic night cycle. The tiny white spots on the inside of the refugium are _asterina_ starfish.


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Hmmmm...if I understand you correctly Brandon...
So you are using a _seperate_ mini with constant light to supply your "_main Nano display_" with oxygenated/stable water ? At first I was looking at it as constant light to the back of the "same" mini but then I see how it appears to just circulate the water between mini's...

Dont that pose algae threats to both tanks ? 
Do you run that light 24/7 on the refugium or do you offset the lighting cycles? 10 hours on "main tank" and 10 hours on refugium (during off interval of main) 
The latter seems like it would work but the first seems like an algae time bomb ?

Am I off base on the premice? This sounds so kool I want to be sure to understand it... :lol: 

I am new to these teeny aquariums... :wink:


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Now that I look at that photo again what I thought was tubing looks like a power supply cord ? 
Is that all one tank or 2 seperate tanks? Now Im all confused ! :lol: :lol: 


*Buck*
:stupid:


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Hey Buck, glad to see your interest in the world of sub-gallon ecosystems! its the only affordable way to emperiment...

Im going to attach a drawing of the Mini75 that will show the internal workings. More like internal divisions, yes this is all in the same unit. Would have liked to have a separate tank/refugium but plumbing this small of a tank would pose more sealing hazards and leak points. This is an internal refugium made by partitioning off the rear-left %10 portion of the tank. Its made with black plastic and is lit 24x7, but this doesnt allow light to pass into the front part during its standard night phase.

I can understand how algae might be a risk due to the constant lighting and all, but two very important factors exists to utilize the constant lighting to _defend_ algae development:

1. Low bioload. There is no excess of nitrogen or its oxidized compounds (nitrite nitrate) becuase marine macroalgae (the plants in the refugium) grow faster than our "bad" microalgae--they outcompete it for food.

2. Plants will uptake nitrogen during photosynthesis, so the 24x7 lighting phase keeps higher and lower plant forms in constant battle for available nitrogen--which is in turn lightly supplied by the regular feedings of the corals. A very fine balance that can also be achieved in a nano planted tank I suspect. No one currently uses refugiums on FW but why not lets build one and see? 

So, to do this on a desktop FW aquarium one would get a couple Azoo palm and galaxy lights (best PC's Ive seen for working with picos) and replace the corals with live plants, preferable micro-swords and dwarf saggitaria, and put hornwort in the refugium. Lighting would be the same schedule as the one I mentioned above, and a FW system would support two _very_ small fish of any practical kind. The reasons for building a system with an internal refugium on a desktop FW:

1. no topoffs. the whole point is to have a sealed system that doesn't exchange air with the room, it comes from the refugium.

2. Less water changes. Wth regular light dosings of any fertilizer, micronutrient support will be maintained and macronutrients can be exported by pulling out some of the hornwort plant. 

3. This is the most thorough model of nature you could have sitting on a desk. Pay a printing company $20 to make a little paragraph sign that sits next to it (describing some of this detail) and you will freeze anyone who sits near it in their tracks!

B


----------



## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

> I can understand how algae might be a risk due to the constant lighting and all, but two very important factors exists to utilize the constant lighting to defend algae development:


If this were true why wouldnt we be able to apply this same reasoning by leaving a light on 24/7 in a fully planted tank ? And we all know that it is not the case because the photo periods of plants becomes saturated between 10 - 13 hours respectively and then after that all the lighting is doing is promoting the algae which never stops in the photo cycle.

I can definately see where if like I said earlier that "offsetting" the refugium and the main tank lighting to different 12 hour periods where in there is constantly a piece of the tank creating O2 that it would be a more stable enviro.
This theory _obviously_ works quite well for you in the reef systems but Im not sold that for a planted system it wouldn't be an algae bomb.  
Im just thinkin out loud hear cuz this is very interesting concept for these small enviro's. 

So you have not tried this yet on freshwater planted Brandon? 
That sketch was very helpful by the way in understanding the setup , after going back to photo it was much easier to see how it is setup...  

She is gonna kill me if I set up another ! :roll: _Curiousity Killed The Buck_


----------



## STAT 007 (Feb 26, 2003)

OK, now I'm getting curious. All the technical terms are blowing right over my head, but I'm curious and that's a start. I'm sure we'd all love to see some more pictures of these little units and maybe if you could zoom out a little with the pictures, it'd be easier for us to see exactly what we're looking at and have a sense of scale. On that JanRearMini75.2.jpg photo, I don't even know where on the tank I'm looking at. Thanks!


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

hey i got one of those lees dual betta hex reefs to its int he making ,Chris


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

ok lemme see if this work this is an older pic of my betta hex i measured the gallon and its 1/6 of a gallon. now i have about 5 differnt macro algaes and 1 caulerpa in there that all started growing about 2 weeks after i got my rock i also got a 2.5 gallon reef int he making,Chris


----------



## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

This is really interesting, how didn't I see this post sooner! You started talking about combining the systems, but they can run fine individually, right? My main reason is because I want to set up one of those mini reef nanos! It is like seeing the car you want and being set on getting that car, I am set on setting up a bowl like that! What is the process you go through to set up something like that?

-Tim


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

o i forgot to post nice tanks brandon.

and i wanted to add ill probyl post a recent pic of my tank tomorrow and i am gonna start a dual betta planted soon also within a month ,Chris


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Now that I think about it, it seems consumption of available CO2 in the tank as a whole would be a major limiting factor if the entire tank was lit 24x7/ by dividing the photoperiod, night cycles in the front tank would fuel growth in the alternate system in turn producing oxygen--which can be in short supply at night. stabilization of pH can be achieved in counter-lighting a portion of the plant load.


Your response Buck got me to thinking about something... I wonder how the growth rates of marine macro algae vs. FW hornwort would compare under 24H lighting. Hornwort is a weed but Ive never really tested it, out of all the plants I could think of this seemed the most like marine macro algae in terms of growth rate...

From what I gather the night cycle of plant life or photosynthesis is an optional cycle, although the peak photosynthesis period you described would likely set the upper boundaries for net production. 

In the case of marine macroalgae, I suspect the net photosynthetic rate would still shift from night to day (greater output at night) as daylight conditions in the front display would compete for cetain items, such as CO2 and carbon. This opposes the night cycle where net CO2 production from the front display feeds these gasses and elements to the refugium system. In situations where constant lighting would pose an algae threat, a very low fish bioload (ie 1 or 2 in FW) would counter this by limiting one of the major building blocks of algal cells. In many situations where algae is the problem, light is only working over time on available system nutrients such as those found in fish waste. ive found much can be done by restricting or limiting the fish bioload. I prefer crabs and arthropods when possible...same movement less waste.

The waste dilutions found in nature are massive, we have to use this in some degree (limiting fish #) in pico aquariums to battle algae that would otherwise overtake a strongly lit tiny aquarium.

Heres a good one!


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Tim and Chris, thanks guys  

Chris I like your system, a working custom reef [email protected]

As Chris knows, setting up one of these systems requires attention to three major details:

1. Temp stability of the room. If the rooms isnt controlled by a good thermostat, the small reef will shift.

2. Salinity control. Be prepared to topoff daily or try and reinforce the sealing of the lid in some manner (grommeting the lid or sealing around cable entry)

Mods, was not intending for this to become a SW thread but these pics are all I have for comparison to a hybrid FW system. Thanks for your input Stat, now that I look at the all the pics are closeups!


----------



## GulfCoastAquarian (Jul 30, 2002)

Awesome work, brandon! You are definitely the most advanced pico-master I've yet to meet! I've got a 2 1/2 gallon planted tank going and having trouble growing plants but you've definitely given me some ideas. My wife also has a Ryukin goldfish in a 2 gallon bowl (a big no-no with goldfish afficionados, I know) and I've been looking for a way to increase water displacement and now I have an idea for a refugium with hornwort. Thanks! I'll let you guys know how it turns out!


----------



## Kai (Mar 31, 2003)

Brandon, those are some seriously sweet works of art . BTW, how old is that "betta-hex" reef?


----------



## corvus (Dec 23, 2002)

That is some of the most amazing stuff I've ever seen!

I'll never try it, but thank you very much for sharing. I would've never believed those reefs were possible without pics!

Dud you are a Master!


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

brandon very true what you said i actually had to make something to bring my lights up on the tank so the heat was reduced i keep the tank at 82 all day no big temp swings it might go to 80 at night its pretty much all sealed cept a little hole for the powerhead so no big topoffs maby 1 or 2 times a week if that heres an updated pic i took last night with some of my macros i actually built the light stand thing out of k'nex. and about the dosing i havent started doseing yet i still have to get some stuff ill probly only dose calc. and alk liek u siad mourning and night thats why there really isnt anything in there now i mite do a small neon goby or clown goby in there but if bioload orsize gets bad ill just move it into my 2.5 heres a updated pic of the tank,Chris


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

hers the little "ghetto" k'nex fixture to keep the light up. the hood is actually a refltctor fits perfect over the tank lol,Chris


----------



## SNPiccolo5 (Oct 6, 2002)

These mini tank are absolutly awesome, omg! I have to start one soon!

-Tim


----------



## cerealkllr4 (Mar 27, 2003)

WOW - I'm now fully dumbfounded(I can finally see the images everyone's commenting on). Amazing stuff. Full praise goes out to their creator and his vision.

How are these little guys lit?

Are there any easy guides to building small CF systems to suit small tanks/dual betta/interesting containers (i live in a 240 volt country).

This is the only site that i'm visiting on a morning/afternoon/eveving basis.

Great fun


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

mines lit by a single 13 watt pc i think brandons is too. im gonna do a planted like this and probly use a 6 watt flouresent 5500k,Chris


----------



## cerealkllr4 (Mar 27, 2003)

This only just occured to me. I fix and computers for a living(and i hate them). I've known about these little fellows for a few years but only just thought of them.

PLEASE POINT YOUR WEB BROWSERS TO THESE SITEs AND TELL ME IF YOU DON'T THINK WE COULD SQUEEZE A MINI PLANTED SETUP INTO ONE OF THESE BABIES(the examples are a little plain compared to the stuff off this site).



http://homepage.mac.com/torgo/MacQuarium Plus.html

http://www.theapplecollection.com/Collection/MacAquarium/index.shtml

Nerd - It's a way of life


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

i know someone on another web site that has one of those setup as a ree fi think there 2 or 3 gallon tanks you could do one planted ,Chris


----------



## cerealkllr4 (Mar 27, 2003)

Getting back to the concept of refugiums. If one was to assemble 2 "betta" tanks with different themes(to allow for a little variety in flora and fauna), then join them through whatever means to acheive circulation, Would it be feasible to have thier lighting in complete opposites to help power(CO2 Wise) the lit tank? This of course would alternate. Would this reduce the need to add CO2 or as much CO2. Or am I completely up the wrong tree?

:?: 

Anyone here from Australia? I need Suppliers except my local LFS (although i'm working on them :wink: )


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

cereal I think that maybe right on track. CO2 would exchange (and fuel) each side notably because of the use of well-lit aquatic plants. Those clip on lights are the most handiest lights Ive seen for pico-planting! The bulb kelvin rating is good enough to grow montipora digitata _coral_--so a crypt or saggitaria is no challenge.... 

Here is a link to a site that sells more planted tank/scientific supplies than any other place Ive seen. The website is 1/4 of what you see by ordering the free catalog (thick as an old JCPenny catalog)

www.aquaticeco.com

They have the minimight x2 light I use for the reefbowl ($69) and all the Azoo brand power compact micro clip-lights that come with a plant-ready bulb.

The azoo palm light is GREAT and costs 11$. FWIW, Ive had one on continuously for 8 months, its running the rear-refugium in the Mini75 reef. Thats major longevity for the ballast and the bulb has not darkened...there is a fan right over the bulb though for the tank.


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Chris, I think you have done a fantastic job customizing your reef! hey man Ive used a MCDonald's straw as a segmented powerhead flow tube (rather handy actually) so don't feel bad about using K'Nex if thats what you had?

Who is out there making half gallon reef light fixtures for us man? No one (yet) so we make do with whats around...are you adding a few drops of calcium and alkalinity support to the system? id say put in a small emerald or boxer crab, really small juvenile, but they will do well and you can feed them tiny food pellets. They will have neat behavior in there!


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

kai, sorry for the delayed response, it was about 7 months old at the time of the pic. These setups are okay when you keep a low stocking ratio of inverts, but when its packed full of miniature stony coral frags temp stability becomes somewhat of an issue with these betta-hex reefs.

I did it as more of an experiment to determine the true bioload capacities of coral reef aquariums, productions and uptake of N and its compounds within an aquarium is the key factor to balancing everything in harmony... there are no fish in this bowl, yet Ive spent $200 in stocking it with rare animals. Fish bore me at times... balancing a reef scape or a planted scape is a real long-term challenge! Managed to keep these guys going for 1+ years, hopefully on to something here

Age breakdown: Planted bowl 2 yrs old in June 03

Terrarium bowl: 1 yr

Reef Bowl : 1.5 yrs

Betta Hex reef: about 8 months then it was absorbed into another tank, Mini75

Mini 75: 5 months old

Cube reef: 5 months

Ive Tube (5ft bubble column ecosystem): 5 months. Ivies have 5 ft root systems


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

In the above miniature sealed reef system, these are two plastic boxes from Michaels crafts. They were plumbed with miniature bulkheads and overflows to circulate between the two systems, yet be %100 sealed (see the lids capping the tanks?) Total volume was about 30 ounces fluid volume.

Notice the 13w azoo galaxy light lighting the main display, and the smaller azoo palm light (7wPC) lighting the rear display continually. The constant photosynthetic activity in the refugium part competes heavily for available CO2, N, Fe, S, Mg, K and all other products that microalgae need for survival. Micro algae do not store these materials as well as fibrous/rooting plants, so the micro algae can be starved as plant matrix builds continually in the refugium cube--be it hornwort or marine macroalgae. Hypersaturated oxygen conditions don't seem to be an issue, I think much is consumed by respiration in the front display. Moreso if you have fish in a FW refugium experiment...


----------



## cerealkllr4 (Mar 27, 2003)

Brandon - How long have you been into this? How many setups do you have at the moment?

Interestingly enough - I have run "normal" size goldfish bowls on my kitchen table for about 5 years now(direct early morning sun for 2-3 hours). Usually containing a Betta(which thirives) and a huge tangle of plants(which the Betta weaves happily through all day. Nearly no nitrates, very few water changes, lots of plant harvesting and huge bubble nests! This i suppose is responsible for my initial interest in "micro " tanks. It looks like I've got this site and Brandon to thank :?:  for my new time sucking hobby. ###BIG GRIN###

I think i'm gonna get a small site going soon with my attempts.


----------



## Kai (Mar 31, 2003)

brandon429 said:


> In the above miniature sealed reef system, these are two plastic boxes from Michaels crafts. They were plumbed with miniature bulkheads and overflows to circulate between the two systems, yet be %100 sealed (see the lids capping the tanks?) Total volume was about 30 ounces fluid volume.
> 
> Notice the 13w azoo galaxy light lighting the main display, and the smaller azoo palm light (7wPC) lighting the rear display continually. The constant photosynthetic activity in the refugium part completes heavily for available CO2, N, Fe, S, Mg, K and all other products that microalgae need for survival. Micro algae do not store these materials as well as fibrous/rooting plants, so the micro algae can be starved as plant matrix builds continually in the refugium cube--be it hornwort or marine macroalgae. Hypersaturated oxygen conditions don't seem to be an issue, I think much is consumed by respiration in the front display. Moreso if you have fish in a FW refugium experiment...


Nice! Do you ever harvest the macroalgae?


----------



## chris (Mar 30, 2003)

im gonna get sum suplements soon for the tank probyl this or next week wen i go to the lfs im actually gonna get a small clown goby for the 1/6 and wen it gets bigger or causes any problems itll go into my 2.5. the k'nex fiuture thingy is actually pretty good its held up and gave me no problems and it is actually cold at first i was worried aboutthem meltingbut guess no worries only thing holding me back form getn corals for it is im a bot low on cash but as ooon as i find a cheap coral or some money im gonna start constructing it and hopefully by next motnh ill have the planted started,Chris


----------



## jay60640 (Apr 16, 2003)

Brandon, ignore the naysayers and doubters who question what you are doing. I started with sticklebacks froma nearby creek when I was 7. Went on to big, easy cichlids. Then angelfish, then discus. I have bred everything from guppies to discus to large South American cichlids, and most recently rainbows. 

I'm 27 now and almost bored with the hobby. Thank goodness for the challenge of planted tanks! For me, the hobby has been about the challenge. I'm sure what you are doing is really challenging and worthwhile for that reason alone. How do you even conduct water changes? Is it done like betta bowls? Pour some out and pour some back in in almost one fell swoop? I guess a Python doesn't really work, huh?

Anyway, I'm surpised that Stat 007 questioned your projects. What's the point of what you're doing? What's the point of paying $60 bucks for a wild discus just to throw it into a 2-cubic-foot tank? People think they create biotopes when they're just simulating bioscapes at best. If there has to be a "point" to the madness of this hobby, then I guess I would have to defer to Stat 007 to come up with one.

-Jay


----------



## STAT 007 (Feb 26, 2003)

jay60640 said:


> I'm surpised that Stat 007 questioned your projects. What's the point of what you're doing? What's the point of paying $60 bucks for a wild discus just to throw it into a 2-cubic-foot tank? People think they create biotopes when they're just simulating bioscapes at best. If there has to be a "point" to the madness of this hobby, then I guess I would have to defer to Stat 007 to come up with one.
> 
> -Jay


Jay,

I hate to tell you this, but you don't have to be so surprised and throw my lack of knowledge on this subject back at me the way you did. I stated in my first post that I wasn't trying to be rude, but rather didn't understand this "niche" in the hobby yet. Then in my second post, I expressed how I was getting curious and wanted to learn more. So everything's cool...I was just trying to understand, not criticize.


----------



## jay60640 (Apr 16, 2003)

Stat 007, I wasn't trying to throw anything "back at you"--my post doesn't refer to any lack of knowledge at all. I was merely suggesting that the hobby is very ecclectic and has neither rhyme nor reason. I guess I was just trying to say that sometimes I feel like there's no "point" to what I'm doing and I have to justify the time and money spent on it by saying "so what?" My friends think aquriums are tacky--not just the ones with aerated windmills and skeletons, but ALL aquariums. It is to them very suburban and a bit twee to maintain fish tanks. They envision fish tanks next to porcelain spaniels and projection TVs.

Sorry if I offended you--I think I was just defending myself when I defended Brandon. By the way, I gradutaed from UC Davis in 1996--home of the other Aggies.


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Sooo, is Bobby Knight cool with you guys?!?!  We like him here, but I lived in Bryan for three years so Ill admit to having cross-ties 

Thanks tons Jay, the best part has been the journey originating with trickle-filters and protein skimmers that eventually led to no filtration and a betta bowl, as it became obvious that fish bioload dictates all the machinery you will need to run a system. 

If you really want to watch people get riled up, tell them you are thinking of housing a tiny fish in this packed marine ecosystem. Sheesh, tempers can really flare  Stat at least voiced his opinion respectably...Ive had some people say I should be banned from the hobby. Its okay either way, two years ago a five-gallon reef system was considered pushing it.

The funny thing about planted systems is they are just as hard to keep as a nano reef. Anyone can buy plants and keep them going for a few months, but only those in tune with nature will keep the same ecosystem going for years. This is all the more fun if you can take it to work or up to a school for display--another major reason for working with palmtop aquariums. :0

Thanks guys,

Brandon M from Lubbock.


----------



## jay60640 (Apr 16, 2003)

I don't think UC Davis ever played any school that Bobby Knight would've coached for--we are only DII, but working on becoming DI. However, having some ties to Bloomington, I've followed Knight's career and think he's somewhat of a megalomaniac/loser. But having said that I don't think he's much too different from many of the other college basketball coaches. I played volleyball in college and graduate school, and though I bristle at times watching some of the b-ball coaches freak out (those guys look like they're prime candidates for heart attacks!), my coaches were never paid enough to care that much us. No strangulations, maybe a few thrown clipboards, but that's about as raucous as men's volleyball gets at the collegiate level. Maybe a mix of my coaches and some Knight thrown in would've made us work harder.

You never explained how you do water changes. Also, is your apartment/house at a constant temperature? Even a draft could change the temperature in your jars in a few minutes, huh? 

-Jay


----------



## corey (Feb 21, 2003)

Great looking Nano tanks. I have a little 2 gallon tank sitting around I just might try something like this.


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

Oh yeah, about the WC's. I use a small siphon tube to suck out the water, and on both the marine and the FW tanks I will use a turkey baster to stir up the detritus into suspension before changing. I try to adjust the temp on both FW and SW changes before adding back to tank, and on SW I match the specific gravity and temp before adding.

If my air conditioner or thermostat go off, the systems will be dead in 30 minutes. Thankfully, if the power goes out so do the lights (source of heat) so thats not as risky, but oxygen deficiencies will come into play if that ever happens. By far, the easiest way to keep these FW and SW pico systems is to have them heated, and then rely on a good AC to keep the room temp cool--not abnormally cool but no warmer than 74-76. I dont like the 30 ounce reefs I have that use no heaters, as they are subject to both sides of the temperature swing. My vase ecosystems are at a constant 75-80 degress and have never given me any trouble so far.

Bobby has chilled around here, he agreed not to beat anyone up for the time being. I still go to the games in hopes that he will someday...


----------



## STAT 007 (Feb 26, 2003)

Hey, guys. I've been really busy the past week or two and haven't been able to check this site but about once.  But I'm back now!!!  

Thanks for staying cool, guys. I wasn't trying to tick anybody off in my first posts or my last. I'm glad nobody freaked out on anybody else (although I DID think that Jay was freaking out at me at first). Glad we can all keep things fairly civil.

Let me emphasize again, now that I see how hard these little buggers are to keep, I'm totally thinking they're cool and would love to try it myself someday. ...just not quite yet. 8) Keep up the good work, guys. Thanks and gig 'em!


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

No prob buddy, and if you do start one we want pics?!?!


----------



## littleguy (Jan 12, 2005)

*where did all the pics go???*

The discussion sounded so intriguing I really wished I could see


----------



## Poochie (Nov 11, 2004)

:icon_frow Why can't I see any of these pictures?


----------



## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Those pics must have been lost when the board switched over to the newer format. Sorry!

Mike


----------



## New 2 fish (Dec 26, 2004)

*Oh boo!*

I got to the last message, trying to find the secret of how to change my settings to see the pics of these... bc of th erave reviews and bc I keep thinking of doing a planted pico in my office.....Repost! Repost!!


----------



## figgy (Feb 27, 2005)

*PIX! Oh PLEASE! PIX! PIX! PIX!*

Auugggh!

Oh please------could you repost those pics? They sound SO COOL!!! I came all the way from another Planted Tank forum just to see them. Please don't send me home disappointed.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth...

Figgy


----------



## danmhippo (Feb 3, 2005)

Go to Reefs.org, Forums, Nanos

Brandon is one of our moderator over at Reefs.org. You can search for his posts or send him a PM.

If you are interested in building a reef tank, we are starting a nano reef built-off contest.



(If moderators of plantedtank.net feel this post is inappropriate, feel free to delete this post, otherwise, thanks.)


----------



## skylsdale (Aug 26, 2003)

Hey Brandon! If I could see the pics (for some reason I'm not seeing a thing) I'm sure I would enjoy what you've got going.

Do you still have that tall tube with the guppies and pothos growing out of the top?


----------



## aquarium boy (Jul 28, 2004)

yea pics would be good roud:


----------



## figgy (Feb 27, 2005)

*Picomania...PixPost*

O Yay!

This thread did it! I went out and got a few containers--a 1 gal clear glass cookie jar, a quart size brandy snifter, a 2 gal drum goldfish bowl--just to fiddle with. Really looking forward to the Brandy Snifter Project!

NOT going to give up my coffee pot, though...

Gonna play around with 'em. I was needing a place for my betta who was turning into a shrimp serial killer in my 12 gal planted JBJ Nanocube--so he's in the 2 gal I started last night.

Is there a list on this forum of hard to kill, low light [daylight only] plants that work well in teeny tanks?

HOW TO: Post pctures to this forum--Moderator?


----------



## TommyBoy (Jan 7, 2005)

*daylight/lo-lite plants*

I use the usual / those typically listed as such, i.e. nana anubias, java moss & java fern, and even some cryptos and aponogenetons. I have also used hairgrass since it grows taller in lower light, as a background plant. Oddly, millfoil, which I saw in books as a "high to very high" lumens plant has worked well (even too well) in some of my nano tanks (0.75 gal half-bowl & 0.5 gal square).

Hope that helps. roud:


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

*--*

I can't believe I've been this long without updates to this old thread

as this forum grew and I assumed other time and $$ consuming hobbies (rc cars, digital drums), I lost the thread among the pages but I just found it after several clicks and some free time at work...I noticed some of the pictures may not have xferred when the shift took place, I don't have them on this particular computer but if you don't mind I'll link to my web forum for nano reefs where you can still see them all. I'll try to check back quicker this time.

b429

here they are, vases, bowls, terrariums and reefs:

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=66484&highlight=terrarium+bowl

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=72558


http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=52540&start=0 

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35175&start=0 

http://www.reefs.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17395&highlight=reefbowl


----------



## Cheese Sandwich (Mar 20, 2006)

Hey, looks like we have a gathering of reefs.org misfits. :lol:


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

*--*

yea I think even DanM was on here, he's super-old school. We still love our hometown but its fun to travel to new lands!


----------



## pet-teez (Aug 17, 2007)

*I've wanted a salt tank for ages...*

I'll be 28 next month, raised with aquariums (freshwater) have fiddled a tidge with brackish (for fiddler crabs and a mudskipper) but have been interested in doing something 'salty' for a rather long time but haven't mostly due to money (they seem to need so many expensive supplies). I went and looked at your ultra mini reef and the vase and I'M AMAZED!
I have never seen anything salt that small. I have a 5g bow front (one of those fruit color acrylic types) that I would love to do something like this in, and am very curious about the set up cost.
I wouldn't want anything too packed though (your vase filled in a lot, I'm not sure how I would keep that from happening).
One of the most interesting things I've seen so far.

(hmm... I have two "ocean free" 1.3someodd g glass tanks... maybe one of those... hehe)


----------



## brandon429 (Mar 29, 2003)

*how about a bi-annual check in!*

I hadn't checked this old thread in a long long time and I just came across it surfing on google, man you guys' site has grown massively in 5 years geeze! sorry I never followed up to the other questions, so much took me away from online planted postings for a while.


I also have a planted palmtop vase (the little 1/4 gallon bamboo glass $2 deals from wal mart) that was photographed as a new setup and posted on here back in '02 I do believe that is still alive, I find that to be possibly a record lifespan since I still have to prune it weekly still? Seven year old java moss still gets annoying  and the snail poop is two inches deep solid, never had a water change   only topoffs and occasional (as in twice yearly) dosings of fert. 

anyone else pushing this long on a planted nano? if so, let's hook up as the dirty ol bastages of planting 
Here's one change up, *videos**. I know this is a planted forum and yes I do have some of those vids to share too, but I thought I'd post up a combo vid and show the progression of the reef vases and my planted micro tanks due to the older discussions about them, these weren't just temporary showpieces, they're still alive. I thought this would generate some biology discussions, especially about low-tech designs for the long haul, since I'm closing in on a decade now with the same setups as in the early 2000's. It turned out these designs were so stable I now won't have anything else! I had to move houses twice since my last post, how nice to just load up all the tanks completely full and drive them over to the new house instead of a days-long deconstruction process like I had to do with my 75 gallon planted which is also found in associated vids under my utube name...I stopped back in to talk about long term pico/nano designs, both fresh and salt, wondering who else out there has their old school systems still up and running... plus its fun to resurrect old threads let's just get down to it. I have seen some pics of the current setups and wow this angle of the hobby has progressed unbelievably!

Vases video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3lhEeOCpao

I'll also post up vids of the terrarium bowl, still alive, with no water changes as well and about as densely packed with plants as you'd think after a few years... nice seein ya again!


----------

