# The best LED I have seen to date: Flex mini Azoo



## FlyingHellFish

Cool, it's nice to see you're experimenting with LED. I personally love my LED fixtures, so much control, so much colour, it's a great time for this hobby.

Looking forward to your updates, I never heard of Azoo aside from their Co2 regulators.


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## frrok

Looking forward to the par data on this light. Could be a very good option for nano tanks with a minimalistic look. Can you post a pic of the spectral graph. I couldn't find it on their site. Also, did the rep say that they will be offering it in the states?


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## jeffkrol

plantbrain said:


> They also measured the Red pigment and the chlorophyll content as well as general relative rates of growth to support their claims. Data was impressive and on par with what one might expect if the light and the spectral graph was correct.
> 
> Bottom line was the relative intensity in the right places for the light, but the light still has a very nice white 6700K range appearance.


Also you... 
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=290&t=3960810&last=50779351


> Two= the spectrum is unlike all the other lights I've seen to date, they PAR radiographic curve is weighted to the red and yellow light, with a smaller blue spike


needs a pic:


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## aquarist

Cool! I saw someone else talking abut this light in early June. I really like the look of it and was thinking of getting one or two for my shrimp tank so I don't have a big bulky light on there. Do you know if these are on sale yet and the price range?


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## NJAquaBarren

Look nice. When can we get them?


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## vanish

That seems like a really smart design if it swings out of the way like I think it does.


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## AnotherHobby

That looks really slick. Also quite curious to see when they are available and how much.


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## plantbrain

frrok said:


> Can you post a pic of the spectral graph. I couldn't find it on their site. Also, did the rep say that they will be offering it in the states?


They have not posted it yet. They showed it to me 1st. But they are not going to publish it, at least not yet. But it's an ideal graph for plants and also has a very nice high CRI and white light. 

I think John from Seven Seas(Whoilesale Vendor here on TPT) will import it. 

It made the ADA lights look like junk frankly. 
And you cannot adjust the height on the ADA either. 

I think this is 1st time in some 20+ years I was not told a ton of baloney about lighting, Marketing horse manure and tripe. They showed me their data, then asked what I thought. 

Very straight forward. There we no holds in the data.
This should translate very well to the practical. I've seen and heard every whacky marketing ploy for lighting and plants under the sun. 

So far I am convinced. 
The PAR is all that's really left and to try the product.


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## plantbrain

vanish said:


> That seems like a really smart design if it swings out of the way like I think it does.


It does, but like the ADA LED, no height adjustment, but.......you can make a simple flat metal piece and attach that to the stand to clamp on to. 
you cannot do that with the ADA LED's. Nor do the ADA lights swing out.
ADA has always seemed about 10 years behind on light technology.
Under powered in terms of PAR and over priced. 

I think 2 of these mini's would fill a 20 gallon nicely.


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## JeffE

In for spectrum plot. I looked for it for a long time on their site haha.


- Jeff


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## jeffkrol

Lets play the "looks like" game.. 
this one








this one:








Or in between.. 

https://www.tindie.com/products/beijingyuji/5630-smd-led-98-cri-5200k/

http://store.yujiintl.com/blogs/high-cri-led


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## gus6464

That 97CRI 5200K spectrum is yummy. Phillips apparently is also working on a very high CRI array that has blue/red/violet diodes. This is the first generation of it that came out recently.


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## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> That 97CRI 5200K spectrum is yummy. Phillips apparently is also working on a very high CRI array that has blue/red/violet diodes. This is the first generation of it that came out recently.


Look at all that 660nm red.. yum... and blue.. oh and violet


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## FlyingHellFish

Changed your mind on LED, gus6464?


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## gus6464

FlyingHellFish said:


> Changed your mind on LED, gus6464?


Nah my current setup is almost identical with 3 LED's. I emailed Bridgelux to ask them about the spectrum of their 90CRI 5600K white and they said next revision will contain the graphs for their new 90CRI stuff. They did say though that all their 90+CRI stuff pushes red a lot more. This is my current spectrum:









+








+









All I am missing to make it perfect would be more push in the 470-505 range. I could add a 3-up with cool blue/cyan/green but the problem is I can't find a 60deg optic that would work with a steve's led chip.


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## frrok

Spoke to my LFS And they are getting this light in the next week or so. Super excited to go check it out! Any PAR data yet?


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## Lonestarbandit

This is gorgeous! Wife WOULD KILL ME lol. I'm a sucker for this machined aluminum stuff!


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## lamiskool

saw these lights in person at toms house and wow were they bright, only bad thing if you can call it that for me personally as I have a lot of tanks and space is limited so they are all cramed next to each other is also having the option of having em swivel up instead of sideways. all in all though I cant complain and its a great idea, very tired of having to lift my light fixture off my tank everytime I need to feed my fish (i have glass covers on my tank so in order to take em off I also need to move the lights. Also Any idea if they plan on making a bigger version for say a 10 or 20 gallon tank?


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## micheljq

Looks like a small fixture for small tanks? Are they doing 36" long versions of the fixture?



plantbrain said:


> I think this is 1st time in some 20+ years I was not told a ton of baloney about lighting, Marketing horse manure and tripe. They showed me their data, then asked what I thought.


Hahaha! 

Michel, thank you for letting us know.


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## NJAquaBarren

Any idea when these will be available? I'm starting a tank now and may wait.


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## limz_777

look interesting , what smd led is it , 5630 ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdvSVYEw16A&feature=youtu.be


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## gus6464

limz_777 said:


> look interesting , what smd led is it , 5630 ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdvSVYEw16A&feature=youtu.be


Yes but it is not a run of the mill 5630. It is probably a special bin of the Beijing Yuji SMD with violet. That chip is not cheap. I highly doubt this light will be under $150.


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## frrok

gus6464 said:


> Yes but it is not a run of the mill 5630. It is probably a special bin of the Beijing Yuji SMD with violet. That chip is not cheap. I highly doubt this light will be under $150.



My LFS is offering a pre-order for under $100.


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## talontsiawd

Wow, that is a really amazing design. I want one and don't even have a tank for it.


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## NJAquaBarren

So this or an e-series?


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## limz_777

the height seem low , the swivel is for ease when trimming ?


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## Green_Flash

plantbrain said:


> ADA has always seemed about 10 years behind on light technology.
> Under powered in terms of PAR and over priced.


As far as PAR goes, the success people have had using ADA lighting systems speaks for itself.


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## gus6464

It's basically designed for a nano tank like the Mini-M according to their website.


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## vraev

wow...is this fixture available anywhere online for purchase?


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## micheljq

Green_Flash said:


> As far as PAR goes, the success people have had using ADA lighting systems speaks for itself.


I guess using those very powerful, expensive (both on purchase and watts consommation), lights allow you to have high light with the fixture 2 feet above the tank. 

Which is fine when it is time for maintenance, water changes, etc. I suppose it is one reason behind. Also the look of course, the aesthetics, the look of ADA is quite wow, if you are ready to pay of it (not for me though, even if I am a fan, I have 2 Amano's books and like to look at the pictures).

Michel.


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## plantbrain

Green_Flash said:


> As far as PAR goes, the success people have had using ADA lighting systems speaks for itself.


"Success" does not refute my comment about their cost(2-3x as much as anything else on the market), their outdated technology or the poor PAR output.

I measured 180 umols(ADA) vs 450(2 other brands) for the same wattage. 
Specifically on the lights you pictured ironically and on a working display tank(actually several tanks(n=7). 

The readings do not lie.
Many things go into aquariums scapes, not JUST lighting. 

That's frankly a weak argument. Even old T8 and T12 lights can produce nice scapes. 

1. Have you measured ADA lights with a PAR meter? 
2. Have you compared it to other lights with similar wattages, various types? 

They came out with a LED light, took awhile, but they did get around to that. Those are decent. No T5's, no decent PAR out any MH's to date. I do not start with a conclusion and THEN go about looking for facts to support them. 

I measured things 1st 

Bump:


gus6464 said:


> It's basically designed for a nano tank like the Mini-M according to their website.


Yes, but the chip and the lights can be scaled up to larger systems. You start at a small scale, then you scale things up if there are good results and a market for it.


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## talontsiawd

Green_Flash said:


> As far as PAR goes, the success people have had using ADA lighting systems speaks for itself.


EDIT-I guess Tom Barr and I responded at the same time.

I don't disagree that ADA makes really attractive lights but people have had success with all type of lights. Tom Barr himself measured the par of the lights at AFA, if I recall correctly and I think it was one of the first times that was available.

That said, ADA lights were MH/PC or both not more than 3-4 years ago. They jumped on the LED technology but the price per output/features is still very much on the side of the price.

I love ADA stuff but I am also happy to see some real competition lately, from tanks, to lighting to accessories, that are not simply knock offs or things that may just be rebranded. 

I think this light looks much better than the Aquasky, personally, it has a better design, so if it competes on output, great. Plus, you can fit it on more than one size tank, it is a shame that the Aquasky does not, especially when they sell to versions within less than 2.5 inches of each other, much less if you want to use an ADA light on another tank. I know that may sound odd to use an ADA light on a different tank but I am the type who likely would buy a slightly different tank and not want to replace anything but the tank, I just did that recently.


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## gus6464

plantbrain said:


> Yes, but the chip and the lights can be scaled up to larger systems. You start at a small scale, then you scale things up if there are good results and a market for it.


SMD based LEDs are not immune to the laws of physics. For people with large tanks an SMD based light is never going to work. To get any decent penetration the fixture would have to be gigantic and pack a ton of those strips. CoB (chip-on-board) designs is the future for high output and penetration.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Tom, where's the PAR data on this?


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## lamiskool

Green_Flash said:


> As far as PAR goes, the success people have had using ADA lighting systems speaks for itself.


sometimes you just cant argue with ada fanboys....almost like apple fanboys lol


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## jeffturneraz

lamiskool said:


> sometimes you just cant argue with ada fanboys....almost like apple fanboys lol


Wow, I never realized the similarities between ADA & Apple until you just said that.


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## plantbrain

talontsiawd said:


> EDIT-I guess Tom Barr and I responded at the same time.
> 
> I don't disagree that ADA makes really attractive lights but people have had success with all type of lights. Tom Barr himself measured the par of the lights at AFA, if I recall correctly and I think it was one of the first times that was available.
> 
> That said, ADA lights were MH/PC or both not more than 3-4 years ago. They jumped on the LED technology but the price per output/features is still very much on the side of the price.
> 
> I love ADA stuff but I am also happy to see some real competition lately, from tanks, to lighting to accessories, that are not simply knock offs or things that may just be rebranded.
> 
> I think this light looks much better than the Aquasky, personally, it has a better design, so if it competes on output, great. Plus, you can fit it on more than one size tank, it is a shame that the Aquasky does not, especially when they sell to versions within less than 2.5 inches of each other, much less if you want to use an ADA light on another tank. I know that may sound odd to use an ADA light on a different tank but I am the type who likely would buy a slightly different tank and not want to replace anything but the tank, I just did that recently.



Azoo did the best job supporting their statements about their light, verifying at least 2 parameters to in planta in real aquariums for this light. then the spectral data matches the results as well. You'd never see a research result like that from ADA. 

This light has the same issue that the ADA fixture has, you cannot easily adjust the height. Azoo has a fix for that in the works after myself and few others made comments about that.

Bump:


gus6464 said:


> SMD based LEDs are not immune to the laws of physics. For people with large tanks an SMD based light is never going to work. To get any decent penetration the fixture would have to be gigantic and pack a ton of those strips. CoB (chip-on-board) designs is the future for high output and penetration.


This comment is true.

But they have the idea and data for what does work, the end result, and can fix the issue and scale it up, might be tougher than what I suggested however.
But I would not say insurmountable.


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## plantbrain

lamiskool said:


> sometimes you just cant argue with ada fanboys....almost like apple fanboys lol


I like ADA and I like Apple, but I do not argue based on belief nor use logical fallacies. And if I do, I fully expected to be called out for it. 

Data was as follows for an ADA 180 cm display in AFA's front window:

180 umol right at the water's surface, 14" from the light. 40-50 umol averages over the sediment. 

Total wattage: 450. 

Fishneeditmore HQI light(150W each light the ADA): 450 umol at the surface, 14" distance. At the sediment: 80-100umols

ADA, based on these facts, produced only 1/2 as much PAR as aquarist had predicted using the Watt/Gallon rules. Thus the AFA tank is a low to moderate lighted tank, not high light like everyone had long suggested when all they had was belief and guessing. Such talk does nothing to further knowledge or provide a lick of support to this hobby.

Ignorance is not equal to knowledge and support.

Now you might speculate why ADA keeps doing this, I would argue ADA plays into the high light myth and has higher Watts for those types of aquarist, and we all know that low to moderate light is EASIER, so more will have a higher % of success.

But the fact is if you compare using a PAR meter, then suddenly all these myths are exposed rather obviously. I do not pretend to know what ADA's game is with all this, that's just, what's the word? A guess. :wink:


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## gus6464

I don't think I have ever seen an ADA tank with red plants though. Every single tank in their gallery running MH is all green. Their "green" bulbs are 8000K which I bet have pretty crap spectrum if you want to get the red out of plants.

This Azoo light based on the videos excels in getting the red pigment out of plants. Reason is because it's not a run of the mil LED. If it is in fact a 98CRI Yuji based SMD it has just as much spectral output in the red wavelength as the blue with good output in the violet region to help make the light look white.


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## Green_Flash

gus6464 said:


> I don't think I have ever seen an ADA tank with red plants though. Every single tank in their gallery running MH is all green. Their "green" bulbs are 8000K which I bet have pretty crap spectrum if you want to get the red out of plants.


They have a different bulb called NAMH which is for red/green layouts, lots of examples of yellow/orange/red/purple plants in AJ using it.


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## Green_Flash

Funny how one simple comment can illicit such a strong response going far off and away from the point I was making, onto all sorts of other things. 



talontsiawd said:


> I don't disagree that ADA makes really attractive lights but people have had success with all type of lights.


This summarizes what I was saying, it all comes down to personal preference and opinion. Use whatever works for you. MH, T5 and LED can be debated about until the end time.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish

gus6464 said:


> I don't think I have ever seen an ADA tank with red plants though. Every single tank in their gallery running MH is all green. Their "green" bulbs are 8000K which I bet have pretty crap spectrum if you want to get the red out of plants.


This is totally false. I've seen some of the deepest reds in plants in ADA tanks. 



plantbrain said:


> I like ADA and I like Apple, but I do not argue based on belief nor use logical fallacies. And if I do, I fully expected to be called out for it.
> 
> Data was as follows for an ADA 180 cm display in AFA's front window:
> 
> 180 umol right at the water's surface, 14" from the light. 40-50 umol averages over the sediment.
> 
> Total wattage: 450.
> 
> Fishneeditmore HQI light(150W each light the ADA): 450 umol at the surface, 14" distance. At the sediment: 80-100umols
> 
> ADA, based on these facts, produced only 1/2 as much PAR as aquarist had predicted using the Watt/Gallon rules. Thus the AFA tank is a low to moderate lighted tank, not high light like everyone had long suggested when all they had was belief and guessing. Such talk does nothing to further knowledge or provide a lick of support to this hobby.
> 
> Ignorance is not equal to knowledge and support.
> 
> Now you might speculate why ADA keeps doing this, I would argue ADA plays into the high light myth and has higher Watts for those types of aquarist, and we all know that low to moderate light is EASIER, so more will have a higher % of success.
> 
> But the fact is if you compare using a PAR meter, then suddenly all these myths are exposed rather obviously. I do not pretend to know what ADA's game is with all this, that's just, what's the word? A guess. :wink:


It should be worth it to note a few things:

ADA recommends using Grand Solars, not Solar Is on the 180P. The Grand Solar comes in 150W MH/72W T5, 144W T5, and 250W MH fixtures. So using a Solar I will be insufficient for high light in a 180P. Also, ADA recommends that (generally) the light should be 10-12" away from the surface for high light. 14"-16" inches away would be on the more moderate side. 

Another thing about ADA is that the prices in its home country can be as little as 50% of the prices at AFA. 



Green_Flash said:


> Funny how one simple comment can illicit such a strong response going far off and away from the point I was making, onto all sorts of other things.


Americans will use any opportunity they have to crap on ADA.


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## gus6464

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> This is totally false. I've seen some of the deepest reds in plants in ADA tanks.


Show me an ADA tank with reds.

This video while old shows all the tanks at the ADA gallery in Nigata. Not a single tank with reds.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish

gus6464 said:


> Show me an ADA tank with reds.
> 
> This video while old shows all the tanks at the ADA gallery in Nigata. Not a single tank with reds.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjV6_3Xgoc


Here's one on the 4th page of this pdf:

http://www.adana.co.jp/en/pdf/booklets_Light.pdf

And I have the Nature Aquarium book, there are plenty of tanks that have very red plants in there.


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## gus6464

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Here's one on the 4th page of this pdf:
> 
> http://www.adana.co.jp/en/pdf/booklets_Light.pdf
> 
> And I have the Nature Aquarium book, there are plenty of tanks that have very red plants in there.


Are they running on pure MH or the MH/T5 hybrid fixtures?


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## Centromochlus

gus6464 said:


> Show me an ADA tank with reds.
> 
> This video while old shows all the tanks at the ADA gallery in Nigata. Not a single tank with reds.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xjV6_3Xgoc


1:08 - 2:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siObtO-aefs


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## NJAquaBarren

Off of ADA and back onto Azoo please.


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## talontsiawd

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Americans will use any opportunity they have to crap on ADA.


That's such BS though. Japanese products are almost always considered highly by Americans and I don't think ADA is any exception to that rule. Some may say they are overpriced but in general, people seem to be happy with them. Certain products they make just don't justify the price to anyone but the ADA fanboy. Even myself, I would consider a mini Solar for for a Mini M if I had one, even though it was crazy expensive for a little PC light, it also had a great look to it. Many complain their filters are noisier than they would expect and to me, that's not acceptable from this brand, especially at the price point. I am on the fence with the Aquasky, to me, it's design seems a bit lazy compared to other ADA products and I personal find it a bit ugly myself. 

Usually, ADA is a good example of high quality, high design, and high craftsmanship. Some products are highly regarded on this board. Other things are really nice, but it's hard to justify the cost. Then, a few ADA things just don't have the price to value ratio of other ADA stuff (not even beginning to compare it to other brands). 

Sure, their are some ADA haters on the board, I think some stuff is just a bit crazy but I didn't buy every Aqueon product either. Just like someone made the comparison to Apple, in some ways, I may be an Apple hater, but I do have 2 iPods and an iPhone, the fanatical aspect of it will never be me. That's how I feel about ADA lights and filters, to have a full ADA setup, you have to be past the point of wanting high end products, it does hit some fanatical point. 

Going back to this post, that is why products like these can be refreshing. IMO, it looks great, yet different from most other fixtures. It's unique, has some style, and is seemingly a good quality fixture, I trust Tom Barr considerably on both lighting, and on quality.

Sorry, not trying to be negative, or make this light out to be the greatest thing to come to the hobby, it's just nice when other companies besides ADA do something new, without copying ADA either. I would say the same about some NA stuff, their stand and lily pipes were not revolutionary but their twist made it interesting. Same with some Cal Aqua stuff, same with a lot of HK stuff on eBay for that matter.


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## ThatGuyWithTheFish

talontsiawd said:


> That's such BS though. Japanese products are almost always considered highly by Americans and I don't think ADA is any exception to that rule. Some may say they are overpriced but in general, people seem to be happy with them. Certain products they make just don't justify the price to anyone but the ADA fanboy. Even myself, I would consider a mini Solar for for a Mini M if I had one, even though it was crazy expensive for a little PC light, it also had a great look to it. Many complain their filters are noisier than they would expect and to me, that's not acceptable from this brand, especially at the price point. I am on the fence with the Aquasky, to me, it's design seems a bit lazy compared to other ADA products and I personal find it a bit ugly myself.
> 
> Usually, ADA is a good example of high quality, high design, and high craftsmanship. Some products are highly regarded on this board. Other things are really nice, but it's hard to justify the cost. Then, a few ADA things just don't have the price to value ratio of other ADA stuff (not even beginning to compare it to other brands).
> 
> Sure, their are some ADA haters on the board, I think some stuff is just a bit crazy but I didn't buy every Aqueon product either. Just like someone made the comparison to Apple, in some ways, I may be an Apple hater, but I do have 2 iPods and an iPhone, the fanatical aspect of it will never be me. That's how I feel about ADA lights and filters, to have a full ADA setup, you have to be past the point of wanting high end products, it does hit some fanatical point.
> 
> Going back to this post, that is why products like these can be refreshing. IMO, it looks great, yet different from most other fixtures. It's unique, has some style, and is seemingly a good quality fixture, I trust Tom Barr considerably on both lighting, and on quality.
> 
> Sorry, not trying to be negative, or make this light out to be the greatest thing to come to the hobby, it's just nice when other companies besides ADA do something new, without copying ADA either. I would say the same about some NA stuff, their stand and lily pipes were not revolutionary but their twist made it interesting. Same with some Cal Aqua stuff, same with a lot of HK stuff on eBay for that matter.


I see so little respect on US forums for ADA. Almost all arguments have boiled down to "ADA sucks because it's expensive." To me, most of their products are very worthwhile, but most will say that they are objectively worthless.


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## gus6464

I think it also has a lot to do with the willingness of planted folk to embrace new tech. LED is a prime example of this. Two years ago no one here would be caught running LEDs on a high end tank. While the LED tech in planted is no where near the reef side of things, people seem to be embracing it slowly. This side of the hobby just seems to be a couple years behind that is all. When LEDs came out in reef systems all the rage was strip style systems like the ones found currently in BML, Current, Ecoxotic, etc. Now the market has moved on and you have to look really hard to find a light system like that for reef.

New LED tech like the one in the Azoo is showing that you don't need a bunch of different colored LEDs to get a spectrum that is similar to a good quality MH bulb or couple different T5HO bulbs. The tech btw is there for high power LED systems with spectrums like the Azoo but I highly doubt the market is going to incorporate it since those LEDs are expensive per single unit. Why make a fixture with LEDs that cost $20 each when you can make one with cheap emitters that cost $0.50.

Bump:


ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I see so little respect on US forums for ADA. Almost all arguments have boiled down to "ADA sucks because it's expensive." To me, most of their products are very worthwhile, but most will say that they are objectively worthless.


It's no secret that Amano loves high temp lighting because it makes the green pop. This kind of light is not very good in a Dutch tank though. In the end we are all arguing about two light systems which are definitely intended for two different styles of tanks. If you want an Iwagumi tank, go for an aquasky. If you want a Dutch tank, go for the Azoo.

I think we have gotten to the point where high-end light systems for planted tanks will have to be separated by intended color just like reef systems are.


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## Green_Flash

plantbrain said:


> "Success" does not refute my comment about their cost(2-3x as much as anything else on the market), their outdated technology or the poor PAR output.


Let's review what you said. 

1. ADA lights have poor PAR: False. They have sufficient PAR to grow any plant out there. The fixtures and bulbs were designed specifically for growing aquatic plants. ADA says they spent years studying natural aquatic lighting in various environments including the Amazon river during R&D for their lighting systems. Here is another testament to the lighting systems suitability. At the Sumida Aquarium they are using all ADA lighting systems on the 20ft tank and 6ft+ *deep* main tank on the left. Yet the plants are flourishing. It doesn't matter how many numbers and pseudo science you recite, all that matters is the* real world* performance. And for that a picture is worth a thousand words. 










2. ADA lights are outdated. False. Among our reefing friends what lighting technology is cited as being very reliable and the closest to true sunlight? MH? I am using reefers as an example because they are the ones who have the most experience using MH lightning systems over very long periods of time. You can't call ADA lighting tech outdated and then go on to praise equally old types. That is a double standard. 

3. ADA lights are overpriced. False. This is subjective and a opinion. There is no need for me to refute this. But I will say the lighting systems are made in Japan and are very well built/solid. They have an excellent track record, overwhelming positive review from *actual users *and a company that provides excellent quality control and customer service. 




plantbrain said:


> Azoo did the best job supporting their statements about their light, verifying at least 2 parameters to in planta in real aquariums for this light. then the spectral data matches the results as well. You'd never see a research result like that from ADA.


Not true. ADA has a real lab where they test their products. They put in a ton of R&D. They may not share the results with the public but that doesn't mean they weren't tested. You can ask ADA to show you their results so you can prove to yourself they did what they said they did. After that I am going to go to Dyson or Apple or Samsung and ask to see their R&D depts so I can verify the items I bought from them were actually made the way they said they were. :red_mouth




plantbrain said:


> ADA, based on these facts, produced only 1/2 as much PAR as aquarist had predicted using the Watt/Gallon rules. Thus the AFA tank is a low to moderate lighted tank, not high light like everyone had long suggested when all they had was belief and guessing. Such talk does nothing to further knowledge or provide a lick of support to this hobby.
> 
> Ignorance is not equal to knowledge and support.
> 
> Now you might speculate why ADA keeps doing this, I would argue ADA plays into the high light myth and has higher Watts for those types of aquarist, and we all know that low to moderate light is EASIER, so more will have a higher % of success.
> 
> But the fact is if you compare using a PAR meter, then suddenly all these myths are exposed rather obviously. I do not pretend to know what ADA's game is with all this, that's just, what's the word? A guess. :wink:


I call BS. Show me one example where ADA uses the American originated term 'high light' in a marketing way with their systems? I want proof not hobbyist hearsay.


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## micheljq

It is a thread about one Azoo product, can we come back on track please. It becomes confusing. Another thread can be opened if discussion is needed on other subjects, or it can be resolved with personal posts.

Michel.


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## frrok

Any PAR data yet?


----------



## gus6464

AFA has the light in stock for $80. Good pricing.
https://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_74&products_id=822#prettyPhoto


----------



## jeffkrol

15- .4W diodes @800mA 9w total output.. per spec sheet..

PAR:









http://www.theaquaticplantsociety.org/flexi-mini-nano-led-follow-up/


----------



## jeffkrol

plantbrain said:


> I'll post data for the PAR vs distance tomorrow or the next day.




OK we got the PAR .. 

how about the spectrum?


Seems some are implying the yugi emitters (which are 90 plus CRI)
This unit "only" does 80......


----------



## frrok

jeffkrol said:


> OK we got the PAR ..
> 
> how about the spectrum?
> 
> 
> Seems some are implying the yugi emitters (which are 90 plus CRI)
> This unit "only" does 80......



This is the yuji emiter spectrum.but I'm not sure if it's the same. There is a site where you can get more info. We
Have no idea what's in the fixture. This is a problem. 
I really hope that this doesn't turnout to be another ADA where they keep their information tight lipped. All we ask for is PAR vs distance and light spectrum. To me this is the most important factors into investing my hard earned money on a new light system. Why can't companies just invest in providing their customers with this information???!! They provide wattage and light color...


----------



## plantbrain

That's not what they showed me as far as the spectral graph. The red- yellow banding was smooth and was a nice round dome. That one has several peaks in the red to yellow ranges. But somewhat close. 

Once they offer this light to market, they will offer the data. Why do the work, then not use it to hep sell your product?

At 2" I got about 375 umols/sec
At 4" down to 150 range
6" roughly 75umols/sec
12" 30 umols/sec
16" about 15-19umols

The light is small and designed for small tanks, generally 12" to 8" depth. 


I think intensity is some of it, but spectral output, then the growth rates for equal PAR ranges and productions of red pigments support far more than the data for PAR alone.

Hobbyist are unlikely to measure those parameters, so when a company does that, then it's helpful, if the company is evasive.......well, then you know something is amiss. They either did not bother to test things, assumed, or did them, but are worried some other company will steal their stuff. Another company can already do that easily with lighting. 

Such companies have the radiospectrophotometer equipment and can easily contract growth and pigment studies out. Hiding the stuff offers little gain and a lot of skeptical consumers. 

Azoo did not do this to me. I doubt they will, it will sell their product much more. But, we shall see.


----------



## frrok

plantbrain said:


> That's not what they showed me as far as the spectral graph. The red- yellow banding was smooth and was a nice round dome. That one has several peaks in the red to yellow ranges. But somewhat close.
> 
> 
> 
> Once they offer this light to market, they will offer the data. Why do the work, then not use it to hep sell your product?
> 
> 
> 
> At 2" I got about 375 umols/sec
> 
> At 4" down to 150 range
> 
> 6" roughly 75umols/sec
> 
> 12" 30 umols/sec
> 
> 16" about 15-19umols
> 
> 
> 
> The light is small and designed for small tanks, generally 12" to 8" depth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think intensity is some of it, but spectral output, then the growth rates for equal PAR ranges and productions of red pigments support far more than the data for PAR alone.
> 
> 
> 
> Hobbyist are unlikely to measure those parameters, so when a company does that, then it's helpful, if the company is evasive.......well, then you know something is amiss. They either did not bother to test things, assumed, or did them, but are worried some other company will steal their stuff. Another company can already do that easily with lighting.
> 
> 
> 
> Such companies have the radiospectrophotometer equipment and can easily contract growth and pigment studies out. Hiding the stuff offers little gain and a lot of skeptical consumers.
> 
> 
> 
> Azoo did not do this to me. I doubt they will, it will sell their product much more. But, we shall see.



Thanks for your input.


----------



## mb165

gus6464 said:


> AFA has the light in stock for $80. Good pricing.
> https://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_74&products_id=822#prettyPhoto


They also have it on one of their display tanks, I was there today and saw it.


----------



## talontsiawd

mb165 said:


> They also have it on one of their display tanks, I was there today and saw it.


Why the need to tell me that? I guess I am off to SF soon, even if my LFS had the light, I would love to see what AFA did with a display tank with this light. Funny enough, I am not sure I even have a tank suitable for this light, I may but not sure for the setup I want ATM. I will have to go off the manual or whatever I found of AFA, but it just looks so cool to me, plus it seems like the design didn't stop at the cosmetics. I want to see one in person now though....my wife will be happy to get a night on the town haha.

Bump:


mb165 said:


> They also have it on one of their display tanks, I was there today and saw it.


Why the need to tell me that? I guess I am off to SF soon, even if my LFS had the light, I would love to see what AFA did with a display tank with this light. Funny enough, I am not sure I even have a tank suitable for this light, I may but not sure for the setup I want ATM. I will have to go off the manual or whatever I found of AFA, but it just looks so cool to me, plus it seems like the design didn't stop at the cosmetics. I want to see one in person now though....my wife will be happy to get a night on the town haha.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

What is the horizontal variation in PAR? To me, that seems to be on its faults, the diodes are in a very tight line, it might not have good coverage over the width of the tank.

Bump:


talontsiawd said:


> Why the need to tell me that? I guess I am off to SF soon, even if my LFS had the light, I would love to see what AFA did with a display tank with this light. Funny enough, I am not sure I even have a tank suitable for this light, I may but not sure for the setup I want ATM. I will have to go off the manual or whatever I found of AFA, but it just looks so cool to me, plus it seems like the design didn't stop at the cosmetics. I want to see one in person now though....my wife will be happy to get a night on the town haha.


I believe that this would be the tank. Someone who's seen it in person can confirm. 
http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_74&products_id=821#prettyPhoto


----------



## Couesfanatic

how long is the actual LED's?


----------



## jeffkrol

plantbrain said:


> Once they offer this light to market, they will offer the data. Why do the work, then not use it to hep sell your product?
> 
> Hiding the stuff offers little gain and a lot of skeptical consumers.
> 
> Azoo did not do this to me. I doubt they will, it will sell their product much more. But, we shall see.


Their Facebook page has PAR measurements but no spectrum..








https://www.facebook.com/taikong.aqua
What were you saying about hiding??? 

More curiosity than critical..


----------



## gus6464

The light is basically designed for a Mini-S, Mini-M with CO2 which is not bad considering the equivalent Aquasky is 2x the price.

Also looks like Archaea is getting into the full spectrum game with their new light.
https://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72_74&products_id=818#prettyPhoto


----------



## plantbrain

jeffkrol said:


> Their Facebook page has PAR measurements but no spectrum..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/taikong.aqua
> What were you saying about hiding???
> 
> More curiosity than critical..


They showed me their data in person, I ask them to show the data directly, they told me it was not to market, which at the time, it was not.That was a few months ago. So.............I think we will see it soon enough now that it's basically hitting the market, not just PAR data which anyone with a light meter will do anyway. 

These are companies, not me personally, but they approached me about what I thought, showed me the data. Good luck getting anything out of ADA however.

Even if ADA distributors are selling competing light systems. :icon_cool
ADA Fan boys can ponder them apples. 

Still, I would hope that Azoo published what they showed me, it's only going to help them sell it, and will do little to stave off competitors stealing their ideas. 

Otherwise, the same criticisms are applied to Azoo.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

jeffkrol said:


> Their Facebook page has PAR measurements but no spectrum..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/taikong.aqua
> What were you saying about hiding???
> 
> More curiosity than critical..


I noticed that their data was a little higher than the independent findings. I wonder if it's just because of variation or their methods. I still would like to see horizontal par data.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I noticed that their data was a little higher than the independent findings. I wonder if it's just because of variation or their methods. I still would like to see horizontal par data.


Spread is important particularly for Reef and for planted tanks and even more so for LED's, they often cherry pick the best locations, but like T5 bulbs, the ends are not as powerful as the middle. 

The nice solid aluminum design, the growth data with the Red pigment data and the spectral data all should be used to sell the product.

As you can see, there's no height adjustment on the unit, this is a failing for ADA's aquasky also, bt you can use a metal billet to attach and adjust the height for this rather simply, not so easy with the ADA aqua sky. The PAR on the Aqua sky is pretty good though. Particularly the double(601). It's those ADA HQI's that were lousy. 

I hope Azoo published that stuff, we have enough BS on line about LED's and they need this info so more companies will produce decent spectra for planted tanks, not just reefs. 

I'm totally on board for the whole LED thing if they would just get their acts together. I use them for the reef stuff(Ecotech Radion). But even they are lousy when it comes to FW plants. 

If Ecotech made the 30 pros with the same spectra as the Azoo, I'd buy and switch over for all my tanks. 

Still, these are a huge leap from the old days of t12s and t8's. 

Lot of hobbyists have never done those with planted tanks :icon_cool


----------



## Reginald2

Any news on availability on these? I think I saw one on ada's site, but couldn't get any info on it. This thread was what I was looking for. 

It sounds like the PAR is a little too high for me though.


----------



## frrok

i purchased the light and will be using it on my ADA Mini-M. It wont be for awhile though as I think Im plannig a rescape... if it changes I'll let you know. I am going to try and test PAR in water... stay tuned


----------



## plantbrain

They had a different PAR meter than the Apogee, so they might have a different conversion or might use Lux to PAR. I saw the meter, it looked more like one of those camera light meters, not a submersible light PAR meter probe etc. I could be wrong, but that's what they had set up as the example. 

I'm less concerned about that, more about the data for the plant growth, pigment content and spectral graph over the 400-700 nm range.

THOSE are the items that we need to see to judge whether LED's do well for the planted tank etc.


----------



## dhavoc

got mine from AFA earlier this week, going to be used on a rescape of mini-m so only setup on a dry tank for now. very sold build and the swing out is neat but dont know if i'll use it much.
color output is pretty nice with reddish tones kinda like a 10k/roseate t5ho mix. we'll see how it does in a few weeks when i fill the tank. overall nice looking light for the price.


----------



## talontsiawd

dhavoc said:


> got mine from AFA earlier this week, going to be used on a rescape of mini-m so only setup on a dry tank for now. very sold build and the swing out is neat but dont know if i'll use it much.
> color output is pretty nice with reddish tones kinda like a 10k/roseate t5ho mix. we'll see how it does in a few weeks when i fill the tank. overall nice looking light for the price.


That may not be the right look for everyone but that sounds perfect for my tastes on most the nano's I do. What is the length of the actual light? I know it won't fit my current nano and it would be too powerful since it is low tech, just curious what size tanks this may fit.


----------



## frrok

talontsiawd said:


> That may not be the right look for everyone but that sounds perfect for my tastes on most the nano's I do. What is the length of the actual light? I know it won't fit my current nano and it would be too powerful since it is low tech, just curious what size tanks this may fit.



W237mm x D122mm x H8mm or
9.3 in x 4.8 in x .31 in.


----------



## talontsiawd

frrok said:


> W237mm x D122mm x H8mm or
> 9.3 in x 4.8 in x .31 in.


I forgot they had the manual on AFA. That's small, I thought it would be like 12-14, which wouldn't fit the Mini S. Wonder if they will make a bigger one for 30-45 CM tanks.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

frrok said:


> W237mm x D122mm x H8mm or
> 9.3 in x 4.8 in x .31 in.


Beat me to it. There seems to be about an inch on both sides of the actual LEDs (vs the length of the fixture itself).


----------



## plantbrain

the Sharp 3500K is close to what the spectral output is with the Mini, but.they add other color mixes to give that nicer white color. 

http://www.1023world.net/diy/spectra/

But that's the overall general shape.


----------



## Reginald2

Well, I got curious and decided to give this one a try. I also got a mini m as it's slightly taller than the tank I currently have. 

I'm a bit frightened by the high par, I noticed mine is nine watts, but this tank will have it's own 5 lbs tank so hopefully I'll get it figured out. 

The light does seem to get a bit warm, and as this is a kitty drinking fountain as much as a tank, I'm a bit concerned about that.

I doubt that I'll be able to add anything to this discussion, as it's mostly over my head, but I'd be happy to answer any questions if I can.


----------



## eirose

I had both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini in my nano tank. Be honest, Aquasky looks much brighter than Flex which you can see in AFA by yourself. I know ADA didn't provide tech. information for some business reason, but I know Azoo developed the Flex mini base on Aquasky. 

So far, I will still say Aquasky is the best LED I have. (I have at least 6-10 kind of LED light). But for price and cosidering the plant you wanna have, Flex will be an eco version. Also, Mini-M tank is a bit too large for Flex(A bit too deep that the light won't be place in the center), Mini-S will be better fit. 

By the way, AFA display both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini near the cashier counter. Just simply go to take a look by yourself.


----------



## talontsiawd

eirose said:


> I had both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini in my nano tank. Be honest, Aquasky looks much brighter than Flex which you can see in AFA by yourself. I know ADA didn't provide tech. information for some business reason, but I know Azoo developed the Flex mini base on Aquasky.
> 
> So far, I will still say Aquasky is the best LED I have. (I have at least 6-10 kind of LED light). But for price and cosidering the plant you wanna have, Flex will be an eco version. Also, Mini-M tank is a bit too large for Flex(A bit too deep that the light won't be place in the center), Mini-S will be better fit.
> 
> By the way, AFA display both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini near the cashier counter. Just simply go to take a look by yourself.


Great to hear your review, not that it fits any of my tanks, nor am I particularly interested in the Aquasky for my 60P but that is kind of the hunch I had. Did they happen to have an Archea full spectrum LED up (I believe they just came out with it).

Also, thanks a lot, now I got to go out to SF to look at some lights that don't fit my tank in the near future:smile:


----------



## eirose

talontsiawd said:


> Great to hear your review, not that it fits any of my tanks, nor am I particularly interested in the Aquasky for my 60P but that is kind of the hunch I had. Did they happen to have an Archea full spectrum LED up (I believe they just came out with it).
> 
> Also, thanks a lot, now I got to go out to SF to look at some lights that don't fit my tank in the near future:smile:


Yes, I saw there are some Archea full spectrum LED up stock near cashier counter.


----------



## plantbrain

eirose said:


> I had both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini in my nano tank. Be honest, Aquasky looks much brighter than Flex which you can see in AFA by yourself. I know ADA didn't provide tech. information for some business reason, but I know Azoo developed the Flex mini base on Aquasky.
> 
> So far, I will still say Aquasky is the best LED I have. (I have at least 6-10 kind of LED light). But for price and cosidering the plant you wanna have, Flex will be an eco version. Also, Mini-M tank is a bit too large for Flex(A bit too deep that the light won't be place in the center), Mini-S will be better fit.
> 
> By the way, AFA display both Aquasky 301 and Flex mini near the cashier counter. Just simply go to take a look by yourself.


Be honest? Looking at light does not offer any quantitative measure of the differences between these two products and one cost a lot more than the other and the uses more watts. 

So is a light that uses more energy, say 10 Watt LED versus say a 15 Watt LED measured on the same level? You use a PAR meter, then check the energy draw. Now you can compared on a standardized unit. I have not seen a LED spectra graph for any ADA lights. 


One product is made from solid aluminum, the other is plastic.
Which is better in your opinion based on materials? 

Then the cost. 

"Be", as you said, "honest".


----------



## talontsiawd

It's not unreasonable having a subjective opinion, based off of experience. As for aluminum vs. plastic, again, that's the appearance, much more subjective IMO to the user.


----------



## Green_Flash

plantbrain said:


> B
> 
> 
> One product is made from solid aluminum, the other is plastic.
> Which is better in your opinion based on materials?
> 
> Then the cost.
> 
> "Be", as you said, "honest".


Aquasky uses an aluminum heatsink and a acrylic stand. You can get the 301 for $100~ in Japan.


----------



## gus6464

plantbrain said:


> Be honest? Looking at light does not offer any quantitative measure of the differences between these two products and one cost a lot more than the other and the uses more watts.
> 
> So is a light that uses more energy, say 10 Watt LED versus say a 15 Watt LED measured on the same level? You use a PAR meter, then check the energy draw. Now you can compared on a standardized unit. I have not seen a LED spectra graph for any ADA lights.
> 
> 
> One product is made from solid aluminum, the other is plastic.
> Which is better in your opinion based on materials?
> 
> Then the cost.
> 
> "Be", as you said, "honest".


He gave a pretty fair comparison between the two. The Aquasky looked brighter in the tank and makes sense since they use 5630 SMD in the 7000-8000K range. All high-CRI LEDs on the market have lower lumen per watt than the low CRI alternatives which explains the Aquasky looking brighter.

As for the size even Azoo states that it is meant for a very small tank like the Mini-S in order to get that deep red grow at the top. From their literature one can see:

Mini-S - high light
Mini-M - medium
Mini-L - low

If you want to see the spectral graph of the ADA just go look at the graph of a 5630 SMD in the 7000K range. High blue and low red but very high PAR.

The aquasky is made of aluminum and thick acrylic. It is a pretty well made unit like most ADA products.


----------



## eirose

plantbrain said:


> Be honest? Looking at light does not offer any quantitative measure of the differences between these two products and one cost a lot more than the other and the uses more watts.
> 
> So is a light that uses more energy, say 10 Watt LED versus say a 15 Watt LED measured on the same level? You use a PAR meter, then check the energy draw. Now you can compared on a standardized unit. I have not seen a LED spectra graph for any ADA lights.
> 
> 
> One product is made from solid aluminum, the other is plastic.
> Which is better in your opinion based on materials?
> 
> Then the cost.
> 
> "Be", as you said, "honest".


I am not trying to say which one is better base on cost or anything. I just simply see and say Aquasky looks more bright for a tank with one light fixture. Of course, I don't have any machine to measure it, but I am totally fine to temporary offer both of my light to someone who want to measure it.

I have two tank using Aquasky about 10 month. So far, I will say it's the best LED I have right now. (Not only good looking) I only start to use Flex mini about 1 week. So no comment on it.

but seems they both design for certain size of tank, 301 for Mini-S, 1' cube and flexi for mini S. one in acrylic stand with aluminum heatsink and one in aluminum. Both looks good. As an architect, we love some beautiful things. I got wow from all of my co-worker when I put aquasky on my office tank.(just for reference)

Defiantly, Flexi is more affordable depend on what kind of plant you wanna grow. But it's complicated, if you can only put one fixture in one tank and you need really strong light. Then Aquasky seems the better choice to me.

Something about price. Aquasky 301 is about $95 in Japan. ADA only sell their product in LFS not online. They want to help LFS to compete with online seller to keep more people go to LFS and that maybe why the price is so high in other country. The flexi is $79.99 in USA and they haven't sell it in Taiwan. (Though it's made in Taiwan.) So.....it's tricky to say cost is the critical point to pick flexi. Basically, you can get most of the light in Asia (Taiwan or Japan) in half of the price lol.

I really hope someone can measure the Aquasky and show the data, cuz I don't think ADA has responsibility to show it @ any of their product since so many people want to copy their product. (Such as KFC keep their origin formula in secret locker, and many business doing same thing)

One thing for sure. Azoo Flexi use this post tread as credit saying Tom Barr recommend this lighting fixture is the "Best" LED so far in their FB as advertising. How to define the "Best" is always an interesting point.


----------



## jeffkrol

eirose said:


> I am not trying to say which one is better base on cost or anything. I just simply see and say Aquasky looks more bright for a tank with one light fixture. Of course, I don't have any machine to measure it, but I am totally fine to temporary offer both of my light to someone who want to measure it.
> 
> I have two tank using Aquasky about 10 month. So far, I will say it's the best LED I have right now. (Not only good looking) I only start to use Flex mini about 1 week. So no comment on it.
> 
> but seems they both design for certain size of tank, 301 for Mini-S, 1' cube and flexi for mini S. one in acrylic stand with aluminum heatsink and one in aluminum. Both looks good. As an architect, we love some beautiful things. I got wow from all of my co-worker when I put aquasky on my office tank.(just for reference)
> 
> Defiantly, Flexi is more affordable depend on what kind of plant you wanna grow. But it's complicated, if you can only put one fixture in one tank and you need really strong light. Then Aquasky seems the better choice to me.
> 
> Something about price. Aquasky 301 is about $95 in Japan. ADA only sell their product in LFS not online. They want to help LFS to compete with online seller to keep more people go to LFS and that maybe why the price is so high in other country. The flexi is $79.99 in USA and they haven't sell it in Taiwan. (Though it's made in Taiwan.) So.....it's tricky to say cost is the critical point to pick flexi. Basically, you can get most of the light in Asia (Taiwan or Japan) in half of the price lol.
> 
> I really hope someone can measure the Aquasky and show the data, cuz I don't think ADA has responsibility to show it @ any of their product since so many people want to copy their product. (Such as KFC keep their origin formula in secret locker, and many business doing same thing)
> 
> One thing for sure. Azoo Flexi use this post tread as credit saying Tom Barr recommend this lighting fixture is the "Best" LED so far in their FB as advertising. How to define the "Best" is always an interesting point.


The subtlety of plant lighting..









What is bright to people can be horrible for plants .. IN a general sense..
White LED's based on blue plus phosphor doping can't ever be "horrible" but the point is "brightness" is a human thing..

It is spectral content that has a lot to do w/ plant/pigment responses.
It is more complicated than brightness..
as to showing data.. well, it is there choice but many don't like the "trust me" approach.. Bose vs the world so to speak.. If you are familiar w/ sound systems.. Bose won't publish their frequency response charts..
Some people find that a turn off.. It is rarely to protect "intellectual property" because manuf. can test THAT to their hearts desire.. I'm sure Azoo can find spectrophotometer somewhere and "analyse" an ADA to their hearts content..

don't be fooled.. it is usually NOT because of theft fears...


----------



## talontsiawd

jeffkrol said:


> as to showing data.. well, it is there choice but many don't like the "trust me" approach.. Bose vs the world so to speak.. If you are familiar w/ sound systems.. Bose won't publish their frequency response charts..
> Some people find that a turn off.. It is rarely to protect "intellectual property" because manuf. can test THAT to their hearts desire.. I'm sure Azoo can find spectrophotometer somewhere and "analyse" an ADA to their hearts content..
> 
> don't be fooled.. it is usually NOT because of theft fears...


I would argue that ADA and Bose do follow a similar approach. As a musician and audio engineer, we don't tend to pay too much mind to frequency response, we pay attention to how well things work (speakers serve a different purpose for us). Same with mics, it's not about a curve, it's about learning the application and if we like it. IMO, spectrum charts are the "new" thing, it used to be accepted that if things look the way you want, and grow plants the way you want, that is great. LED's changed this for some, but for many, it's still that simple, it needs to look right and grow plants the way we expect it.

As for this fixture, I would argue that Azoo's data, after reading the post, was kind of a turn off. It really only fits a tiny tank for high light and though it could be scaled up, that doesn't intrigue me until it gets scaled up. Meanwhile, ADA, for example, makes an LED fixture that will fit my tank and I know it will work well, I have seen it. Same with Current/Exxotic, same with BML, etc. So, I think everything is relative to the end user, not the spec sheet.


----------



## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> The subtlety of plant lighting..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is bright to people can be horrible for plants .. IN a general sense..
> White LED's based on blue plus phosphor doping can't ever be "horrible" but the point is "brightness" is a human thing..
> 
> It is spectral content that has a lot to do w/ plant/pigment responses.
> It is more complicated than brightness..
> as to showing data.. well, it is there choice but many don't like the "trust me" approach.. Bose vs the world so to speak.. If you are familiar w/ sound systems.. Bose won't publish their frequency response charts..
> Some people find that a turn off.. It is rarely to protect "intellectual property" because manuf. can test THAT to their hearts desire.. I'm sure Azoo can find spectrophotometer somewhere and "analyse" an ADA to their hearts content..
> 
> don't be fooled.. it is usually NOT because of theft fears...


I forgot that we look at our fish tanks. I guess I should just change all my lights to magenta as my plants will love that the most.

It's also quite ridiculous to put Bose and ADA in the same sentence.

Aquaskies put out big PAR and can grow anything.


----------



## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> It's also quite ridiculous to put Bose and ADA in the same sentence.


One 4 and one against... 

anyways let us start here:









Best guesstimate is 24000LUX= 375PAR @ 8CM(6400LUX =100PAR)
Ave. flour and real sunlight.
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/conversion-ppf-to-lux/

@16cm you have 1/4 of that (@ 6.3"btw) 93.75

@ 12.6" (32cm) you get 1/4 of that 23.4PAR.. Where is this magic "high PAR"????

good comparison.. I find it suspiciously high.. 
http://prirodni-akvarium.cz/index.php?id=mereni
Then again a home built SMD5050 is really not that far behind..










"suppose" I should add the aquasky...









PLEASE note the height differential..


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

jeffkrol said:


> One 4 and one against...
> 
> anyways let us start here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Best guesstimate is 24000LUX= 375PAR @ 8CM(6400LUX =100PAR)
> Ave. flour and real sunlight.
> http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/conversion-ppf-to-lux/
> 
> @16cm you have 1/4 of that (@ 6.3"btw) 93.75
> 
> @ 12.6" (32cm) you get 1/4 of that 23.4PAR.. Where is this magic "high PAR"????
> 
> good comparison.. I find it suspiciously high..
> http://prirodni-akvarium.cz/index.php?id=mereni
> Then again a home built SMD5050 is really not that far behind..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "suppose" I should add the aquasky...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PLEASE note the height differential..


You seem to contradict yourself. You convert lumens to PAR to argue that it isn't high PAR, yet you also cite that picture which clearly shows it has very high par. So which is it?


----------



## jeffkrol

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> You seem to contradict yourself. You convert lumens to PAR to argue that it isn't high PAR, yet you also cite that picture which clearly shows it has very high par. So which is it?


There are my guesstimates and a "study" that shows higher PAR YET my initial calculation is right on the money..


> *Best guesstimate is 24000LUX= 375PAR @ 8CM*


and see "Study"... I have no idea as to why it diverges soo much from the estimate except for the effect of 2 rows...
I gave both as a point/ counterpoint. Not knowing Chech I can't comment much further. I'd like to see a second set of real data..
I did imply the "study" high par at that depth is "suspect".. 


THE better point is, considering the distance difference the SMD5050 is on "par" to equal the Aquasky..
which you seem to want to avoid. BTW: Considering "like equip" at that website, it is more accurate to compare that..


Say 2 cheap home made "strip" lights *equal or surpass* the aquasky..in this scenario..and can produce "high PAR"
"high PAR" is not hard to achieve w/ LED's.. expensive OR cheap..

Like this:


> Lamp was made with 5 1W Edison LEDs. Lens are 45°. The initial purpose of this lamps was to have decent lighting to see shrimps without shaded areas, but I didn't expected to get this high PAR readings with so little power; the ADA equivalent AQUASKY301/361 consumes 17w.





> Lamp is 6" above water surface.
> 
> Readings at surface of the water 125umol~


http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/12663-PAR-readings-with-LED-lighting

another data point:


> I tested my 34 gallon 20" cube tank that is lit with two Marineland Planted Tank LED lights and have posted that data.
> 
> I also tested my empty (not for long) ADA Mini-M with Aquasky LED light.
> The fixture is about 3" above where the water line will be. Directly under the fixture and about 3" from the bottom of the Mini-M tank, the PAR reading is 95.*


AFAICT that is *95 @10"*...Which fits my est. closer than the one posted..(assuming 10" deep cube w/ 3" substrate and 3" off top of water line)
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/11620-ADA-Aquasky-LED-PAR-Readings


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

jeffkrol said:


> THE better point is, considering the distance difference the SMD5050 is on "par" to equal the Aquasky..
> 
> Say 2 cheap home made "strip" lights *equal or surpass* the aquasky..in this scenario..


Yes, you can DIY almost anything for good quality. Doesn't mean that the manufactured ones are any worse.


----------



## jeffkrol

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Yes, you can DIY almost anything for good quality. Doesn't mean that the manufactured ones are any worse.



sticking a meter or 2 of SMD strips to a piece of aluminum it not technically "good quality" 

Of course neither does $'s always equal "good quality"...in a technical sense.. Maybe finish and fit.. 

i'm still sticking w/ the fact the Aquasky is not "high PAR" due to cost... and I'm still not convinced it is actually "high(er) PAR" compared to other lights in it's "class" (SMD 5630 LED's) 
regardless of cost....
2 out of 3 studies point to the opposite..and the 3rd one has home made SMD's approaching it...
Few companies can "magically" produce higher PAR based on similar technologies...
Aquasky doesn't "manufacture" magic 5630's....AFAICT

NOTE: The odd thing about those Chech tests EVERY light but the Aquaskys were almost 3X the height higher than them.. Since light intensity decreases by 4x by 2x the distance.. well do the math.. 

So I pay aquasky to have shorter brackets..


----------



## gus6464

OK so then build an aquasky clone with laser cut cast acrylic for $100. Ohh wait you can't.

Last time I checked 120 par is quite high.

I know its cool to hate on ADA around here but at least they make a quality, good looking product that performs for the price they ask for which cannot be said for Bose. Only decent thing Bose makes is their noise canceling cans which is actually good tech.

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk


----------



## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> OK so then build an aquasky clone with laser cut cast acrylic for $100. Ohh wait you can't.




did you miss this part of my above post???


> Of course neither does $'s always equal "good quality"...in a technical sense.. Maybe finish and fit..





gus6464 said:


> Last time I checked 120 par is quite high.
> 
> I know its cool to hate on ADA around here but at least they make a quality, good looking product that performs for the price they ask for which cannot be said for Bose. Only decent thing Bose makes is their noise canceling cans which is actually good tech.


I'll refrain from mentioning that many will argue the "bose thing" in the same manner one argues the ADA "thing"..

And as I said, I don't "believe" the 120PAR figure.. Care to find alternatives?? i did.. one a real measurement (95 @ 10" NOT 120 @ 12") one a guess (94 @6" .. admittedly low).


Now THIS is ADA bashing and clearly out of my league.. 


> This is my own personal first hand experience with the ADA AQUASKY 601 single light used over a 60-P aquarium.
> 
> I was one of the first in the US to receive and use this light. It is NOT worth it, my following reasons:
> 
> 1. It is made in China, all the Solar series are made in Japan
> 2. The power cord and ballast are SUPER cheap and flimsy junk I would expect on a knockoff LED from ebay but not from ADA
> 3. The power cords are ridiculously short, and the positioning of the ballast in line is very awkward and hard to position it correctly. Nothing like the very high quality durable Solar I power cords that are nice and long
> 4. The acrylic stand after 1 month was exhibiting signs of cracking/ fracturing all over the legs and side supports, they were not huge but sill noticeable, the light was placed on the tank and never touched or roughly handled or exposed to direct sunlight or anything, I treated it like a baby from day 1. I talked to someone who builds acrylic tanks and their opinion was that it is inevitable because the of shape. i.e it warps overtime
> 5. In Japan this light would cost less than $170, in USA it is $300, I was very angry for paying this outrageous markup because it is baseless, all the ADA products are at cost in Japan and USA, the same.
> 7. It is VERY easy to knock this fixture from its stand and have it fall into the tank. few close calls. remove it any time you work on the tank, which results in not being able to see the scape/tank properly during maintenance.
> 8. It uses SMD LED, a similar LED for Marine tanks uses the same and is capable of supporting soft corals, hence this thing is way too powerful for plants and you need alot of CO2 and ferts and one mistake or miscalculation will result in a algae farm
> 9. The color spectrum wasn't great, my plants looked very washed out compared to MH and fluorescent lighting I have seen and used.
> 10. I don't get the decision not to include a simple in line dimmer, that is supposed to be one of the attracting features and advancements of LED lighting technology isn't it? I feel ADA dropped the ball, big time on this featured it would have been very easy to include a dimmer and would allow you to adjust the lighting intensity to suit your needs.
> 11. LED lighting is still highly debated go on Reef central and see the debate on the big pricy fixtures like radions and AI, issues with spectrum, issues with spread, issues with tanks looking like a flashlight spotlight, LED is the future, but not yet I give it 5-10 years.
> 12. I also like being able to change bulbs and keep the fixture going when the bulb dies, when the LEDs start to dim over the years, it will be useless.
> 
> Overall, I was majorly disappointed with my experience and purchase with the AQUASKY light and ended up selling it this month. I am disappointed in ADA recently, they moved the tank manufacturing from Germany to china, downgrade, glassware is made in china, downgrade, light is made in china, downgrade, but you still pay the premium high price.
> 
> If you have anymore questions I will be happy to answer them.


http://scapeclub.org/forum/showthread.php?17695-Are-the-ADA-Aquasky-Lights-worth-it


----------



## jeffkrol

Found one more.. STILL not 120PAR....


> I tested it in air and under water, and on a mini-m, with about 1 inch of substrate, I get about 70umol.


[email protected] 18"???

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=298722

The Czech site is an outlier..


----------



## jeffkrol

Thanks for the comments.. JUST to be clear, the orig. "review" was not mine.


----------



## eirose

jeffkrol said:


> The subtlety of plant lighting..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What is bright to people can be horrible for plants .. IN a general sense..
> White LED's based on blue plus phosphor doping can't ever be "horrible" but the point is "brightness" is a human thing..
> 
> It is spectral content that has a lot to do w/ plant/pigment responses.
> It is more complicated than brightness..
> as to showing data.. well, it is there choice but many don't like the "trust me" approach.. Bose vs the world so to speak.. If you are familiar w/ sound systems.. Bose won't publish their frequency response charts..
> Some people find that a turn off.. It is rarely to protect "intellectual property" because manuf. can test THAT to their hearts desire.. I'm sure Azoo can find spectrophotometer somewhere and "analyse" an ADA to their hearts content..
> 
> don't be fooled.. it is usually NOT because of theft fears...


Here are some data for aquasky measured by Asia player.
http://iaqua.cn/page/LED/
http://www.1023world.net/blog/2012/06
http://www.1023world.net/blog/%E6%B0...uasky%EF%BC%81
There are plenty of review and analysis @ Aquasky review by asia player (especially in Japan)

I think whole tread just astrt to lose focus. I thought it's about felxi mini as the best LED to compete with other light fixture (Not only Aquasky).How to defeine the "Best"? in data? cost? or something else? 

I simply own both of the light fixture and using them in my nano aquarium. I haven't have enough time to see how good is Flexi Mini, but I already recieve solid suceed @ two nano tank from Aquasky. I just wonder we should be more careful about writing the review. What I know is I didn't see any further comparison between Flexi mini and other LED competiter. I didnt see any user experience in Flexi mini. I only see the data showing by manufacterer, and Azoo already use this tread on their FB and web page to marketing Flexi mini saying it's the best LED recommand by an expert xxx.


----------



## jeffkrol

nothing more needs to be said.. 









http://www.1023world.net/blog/水草ledライト徹底検証：天下のada-aquasky！


----------



## jeffkrol

Nice discussion.. 












> Once you try to organize.
> 
> Aquatic plants do not grow in the LED until now. . .
> But, Aqua Sky made it possible at last. . .
> But But, the spectrum of the LED up to now = spectrum of Aqua Sky. . . ! ?


----------



## gus6464

jeffkrol said:


> nothing more needs to be said..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.1023world.net/blog/水草ledライト徹底検証：天下のada-aquasky！


It's not a big secret that Aquaskies are SMD 5630 Samsung chips.


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## zetvi

Nice! Any infor when the light will be in us market?


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## NJAquaBarren

Looks good. Can't complain about that amount of growth and appearance. Very nice.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

jeffkrol said:


> nothing more needs to be said..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.1023world.net/blog/水草ledライト徹底検証：天下のada-aquasky！


You point is? Show me an LED that exactly matches the average photosynthetic response graph. It's no secret that aesthetics play a role in ADA's R&D, rather than by "efficiency" only. As gus said, we look at our tanks too. As for comparing it, we can't because one hasn't been released yet.


----------



## jeffkrol

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> You point is? Show me an LED that exactly matches the average photosynthetic response graph. It's no secret that aesthetics play a role in ADA's R&D, rather than by "efficiency" only. As gus said, we look at our tanks too. As for comparing it, we can't because one hasn't been released yet.


Your going to make me say it aren't you.. 
Point is they use a few dollars in SMD LED's.. No "magic" spectrum" no "magic" PAR..
Hey you want to pay $300 for $15 worth of LED's knock your socks off..
I "really" was trying to be diplomatic.. 

you are paying for form and "look" no more no less.. I have no problem with that AT all... just don't make it more than it is..
This person "got it"..


> Once you try to organize.
> 
> Aquatic plants do not grow in the LED until now. . .
> But, Aqua Sky made it possible at last. . .
> But But, the spectrum of the LED up to now = spectrum of Aqua Sky. . . ! ?


and so does Mr. Barr..........
Guess I'd make a crummy diplomat... 
BTW: This "philosophy" doesn't stop w/ ADA ...just happens to be the subject in part.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

jeffkrol said:


> Your going to make me say it aren't you..
> Point is they use a few dollars in SMD LED's.. No "magic" spectrum" no "magic" PAR..
> Hey you want to pay $300 for $15 worth of LED's knock your socks off..
> I "really" was trying to be diplomatic..
> 
> you are paying for form and "look" no more no less.. I have no problem with that AT all... just don't make it more than it is..
> This person "got it"..
> 
> 
> and so does Mr. Barr..........
> Guess I'd make a crummy diplomat...
> BTW: This "philosophy" doesn't stop w/ ADA ...just happens to be the subject in part.


I don't think it's fair to judge ADA prices based on the US ones when they can be upwards of 150% of the cost in Japan. And please, "$15 worth of LEDs" is a drastic exaggeration.


----------



## talontsiawd

jeffkrol said:


> Your going to make me say it aren't you..
> Point is they use a few dollars in SMD LED's.. No "magic" spectrum" no "magic" PAR..
> Hey you want to pay $300 for $15 worth of LED's knock your socks off..
> I "really" was trying to be diplomatic..
> 
> you are paying for form and "look" no more no less.. I have no problem with that AT all... just don't make it more than it is..
> This person "got it"..


I would argue that some DIY fixtures using 5630 smd led strips actually look better than some ADA fixtures at that. However, I don't recall much talk about 5630 SMD LED's when the Aquasky came out though, and there were some LED fixtures but not a lot. 

That is one thing to take into account with ADA, their product line does not change much so it's already sort of a "dated" comparison. I don't recall if there really was a decent freshwater LED at the time, almost every freshwater tank with decent output was DIY when the Aquasky came out. I think that should be taken into account. I don't recall how old the Aquasky is (I wish there was an ADA wiki page) but I do know what has changed in just the last year from other manufacturers. Just saying it's not the best comparison. Many were complaining that you can't grow red plants with LED's around that time, the Aquasky at least proved that wrong. 

Plus, we all know that 90% of us only buy ADA stuff for cosmetic reasons. We may try to justify that we want the highest quality stuff (and the quality is there) but it all comes down to design and cosmetics. I don't think anyone is saying ADA has great value or even makes the best fixtures possible, some are saying it is their _favorite_ LED fixture however. 

Then again, this is all under the context this this new light is the "best" and it's only really suitable for a 4 gallon tank. To me, it's all kind of one in the same.


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## jeffkrol

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> And please, "$15 worth of LEDs" is a drastic exaggeration.


Actually I was being generous


30 5630's at wholesale..
*60LEDs/m US $578.02/100M*
http://www.dhgate.com/product/led-f...ips|c||0HWF|&gclid=COnS5PeYxsACFQQSMwodCE0Azw
http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Waterproof-SMD5630-flexible-LED-strips-LED_1783170243.html?s=p

$5.78/meter.... 
That's 9 cents each..

Even doubling or tripling that cost..say .30/LED x30 $9

Listing using Samsung:



> Wholesale - 0.5M DC12V 10W *36 leds Samsung LED chip SMD5630 *waterproof IP68 rigid aluminum LED bar light,100pcs/LOT free DHL/Fedex!
> 
> US $3.47 - 3.77 / Piece


http://www.dhgate.com/product/0-5m-...hts|c||0HWF|&gclid=CJ-ryseaxsACFUE0aQodzokAQQ


----------



## talontsiawd

jeffkrol said:


> Actually I was being generous
> 
> 
> 30 5630's at wholesale..
> *60LEDs/m US $578.02/100M*
> http://www.dhgate.com/product/led-f...ips|c||0HWF|&gclid=COnS5PeYxsACFQQSMwodCE0Azw
> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Waterproof-SMD5630-flexible-LED-strips-LED_1783170243.html?s=p
> 
> $5.78/meter....
> That's 9 cents each..
> 
> Even doubling or tripling that cost..say .30/LED x30 $9
> 
> Listing using Samsung:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dhgate.com/product/0-5m-...hts|c||0HWF|&gclid=CJ-ryseaxsACFUE0aQodzokAQQ


Still, for 95% of us, we couldn't make it look like an Aquasky, that doesn't account for the heat shield or even the Acrylic being cut. If you compare that to the retail price of an Aquasky in other parts of the world, it also doesn't seem like an unreasonable place to start for ADA.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

talontsiawd said:


> I would argue that some DIY fixtures using 5630 smd led strips actually look better than some ADA fixtures at that. However, I don't recall much talk about 5630 SMD LED's when the Aquasky came out though, and there were some LED fixtures but not a lot.
> 
> That is one thing to take into account with ADA, their product line does not change much so it's already sort of a "dated" comparison. I don't recall if there really was a decent freshwater LED at the time, almost every freshwater tank with decent output was DIY when the Aquasky came out. I think that should be taken into account. I don't recall how old the Aquasky is (I wish there was an ADA wiki page) but I do know what has changed in just the last year from other manufacturers. Just saying it's not the best comparison. Many were complaining that you can't grow red plants with LED's around that time, the Aquasky at least proved that wrong.
> 
> Plus, we all know that 90% of us only buy ADA stuff for cosmetic reasons. We may try to justify that we want the highest quality stuff (and the quality is there) but it all comes down to design and cosmetics. I don't think anyone is saying ADA has great value or even makes the best fixtures possible, some are saying it is their _favorite_ LED fixture however.
> 
> Then again, this is all under the context this this new light is the "best" and it's only really suitable for a 4 gallon tank. To me, it's all kind of one in the same.


The Aquasky came out in early 2012. Also, there are few manufactured LEDs that are really comparable. Ecotechs, Ray IIs, and Satelites all are fairly limited in depth of penetration, in that they really have to sit right on top of a 60P to get great PAR and high light. 

I think that what you said about ADA and "quality" is applicable to their lights, but for their filters, glassware, tanks, and soil are the best available. 

And yet still no one has offered to give horizontal PAR data from this fixture. I fear that the linear arrangement, and low profile over the tank will leave the substrate with not-as-good spread.


----------



## NJAquaBarren

Return this thread to the Flex please. There's really no need to rehash ADA and the value of aesthetics.


----------



## talontsiawd

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I think that what you said about ADA and "quality" is applicable to their lights, but for their filters, glassware, tanks, and soil are the best available.


I tend to agree with your post but I want to clarify what I meant. Does ADA make really great stuff? Of course. I would even argue that their spring washer is amazing, why I have to argue it is because it's pipe cleaner. 

However, factor in cost of many things, though still of the best quality, is the value really added? In many cases, the price difference between ADA and another very high level product is still substantial yet the functionality differences are minimal. I am talking US prices here as well. 

For example, even thought the Super Jet filters use high end materials where an Eheim uses plastic, from a purely functional perspective, the Eheim is going to do the same job and there really is no need to use SS in a canister filter. There are some functionality differences between the filters but for most, the functionality differences don't make up for the price difference. Same could be said about a lot of the product line. However, if you want the best, you pay the difference. Same goes for things like glass ware, is it really that much better than the next when you factor in the cost difference, and I am not including HK stuff or knock off ADA stuff either. 

I do agree that ADA tanks are the best I have seen, the substrate is probably the best. 

My point is, many ADA products add a little value at a lot of cost. That's where I say we often justify the quality, but it's more that we like the design, we like the brand, we like the subtle differences. Some I will personally pay for, some I will go to another brand.

As a musician, I know some $300 microphones that sound as good as some $3000 microphones, at least in certain applications. However, the $3000 mic is a better mic, cost aside. It's certainly not 10x better. That cost difference was hard to digest as an early hobbyist but as I got professional gigs, that mentality changed very quickly. In my world, that cost difference will pay for itself. In aquariums, not so much, but that doesn't' mean my mentality changes, I always try to buy premium brands because I see the value. It's just not the same mentality of what is going to be the best product for the money from a purely technical perspective. That's kind of what I am saying. ADA, in a certain sense, is similar to Apple. Most people who have expensive Macs pay 4x what I do for my PC's but I need 20x or more processing power than they do for what I do. I respect the quality of Macs but they just don't do it for me, however, they do it for other people, professional or consumer. 

Hope that makes sense, I don't think any ADA product is of low quality, even medium quality, just going on a cost/value perspective.


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

talontsiawd said:


> For example, even thought the Super Jet filters use high end materials where an Eheim uses plastic, from a purely functional perspective, the Eheim is going to do the same job and there really is no need to use SS in a canister filter.


Stainless steel and the Iwaki pump make the Super Jets last longer and have better performance. So I disagree that it doesn't add anything from a functional perspective. 

And NJ, I agree, but as this thread is title the "best" LED it is reasonable to compare it to other LED fixtures. And when ADA is mentioned, it is sure to start a controversy...


----------



## talontsiawd

NJAquaBarren said:


> Return this thread to the Flex please. There's really no need to rehash ADA and the value of aesthetics.


I know I have gone off topic but the OP was the one who went that direction, comparing materials pretty blatantly saying ADA is sub par because it's a plastic light instead of aluminum, etc. It's not ADA fans who started it, it's exactly opposite and some of us find the comparisons to be fairly misleading. Nobody jumped in and said ADA is better, one member compared his experiences with several LED fixtures and felt the ADA system was best. Then some members pounced on him and I felt they attacked his character, to an extent, personally, which rebooted the ADA talk. Just saying, it's not the ADA people who are starting it, it's the opposite.


----------



## acitydweller

I have this light and absolutely adore it. I am thinking of getting two more for two Mini-S tanks.


----------



## gus6464

So in the end we got a light that can grow red plants in a 3 gallon tank. Also calling 85 CRI high CRI is quite meh. I'll take a small fixture with the 5600K 98CRI Beijin-Yuji.


----------



## Green_Flash

I gladly take responsibility for going slightly off topic with the subject of ADA. I would have liked to have seen this thread about Azoo and their light to have proceeded based on its *own* merits. However what I found was Barr needlessly knocking ADA and posting misconceptions that needed to be corrected. I have no idea why he mentioned a *entirely different * lighting technology, ADA MH, in a topic about LEDs. In addition the title of "best LED" on a light he was never *owned *and had first hand *experience* with was somewhat amusing. 

After I casually corrected that in a short sentence, I come back and find a strong backlash. I am still waiting for a rely to my follow up btw.

Nevertheless I again have to set some facts straight with regards to ADA.

Too many are entitled and want the cheapest thing that works. ADA is not a charity, they are not going to sell products *at cost*. They are a business and have to make money. When I saw links posted to buy one of the raw materials I honestly thought that was laughable. There is R&D, overhead, manufacturing costs, wages, insurance, marketing, packaging, customer service and so much more. It is also a double standard to analyze and criticize when I can do the same thing to anything really, hey what is the cost of your computer in materials, or car or house or anything. :icon_roll It is *all relative*. 

Poor quality products are sold with little to no innovation being made. All of it comes from the SW side, I would say we are leading edge in SW, why? Because of R&D of new products. The ATI lights Barr uses were designed for a SW Reef. His style is imitation ADA though. :icon_smil I buy ADA not only because it looks cool, but because it has a proven history of reliability and quality in general. And because I know the money is going back to a company that specializes in planted aquaria and continues to release new products. 

I applaud any company that strives to do that.


----------



## jeffkrol

WOW, you just "politicized" aquarium lighting.. I'll have to tread softly here.
Not sure why you are no so "gushing" about companies like Kessil or BML (American btw) with their their own strengths in re: to both innovation and quality of product.
Along w/ another 1/2 dozen companies.
No matter how you put it.. ADA is cheap diodes in a pretty package. No more no less.

I see nothing in ADA that is currently "innovative" and to be honest is more "retro" than the current trends. Wireless control, multi spectrum ect.
Of course this IS a bit contrary to the apparent ADA philosophy of "less is more"...  

You and I apparently have a different idea of innovation..
THIS company is innovative  Unfortunately not a finished product:
http://www.reefll.com/

One doesn't encourage innovation by blindly following a "brand" no matter what direction it goes.

your "profit motive" goes both ways. Making it "good enough" to squeeze money out of it.. and using ones name to squeeze a bit more. 

Soo if ADA wants to be innovative they better get on the ball w/ some good software, multi-colored LEDs and maybe even some nano powdered diamond encrusted heat sinks or at the least carbon nanotubes or carbon fiber mounts. Not 60's acrylic... 

ADA= innovation.. not in my book. Even Marineland surpasses them at this. 
ADA has their own strengths.. LED lighting is NOT one of them. 

I know this sounds like bashing but I believe it is just honest.. YMMV..
One last note.. If ADA LED's were $20 I'd "still" have a hard time choosing them for LIGHTING, no matter LED or MH or whatever they currently offer.
.. but that is just me. My wants/needs/desires.. I TOTALLY understand one size doesn't fit all.. 


And again , to be honest.. it sounds more like those that bought into the line defending their turf more than "bashing" (without facts i.e PAR/spectrum measurements) by those that haven't.

Innovation:










> Fixture case, so thin but strong enough, can be made only from one material - carbon. The weight of this carbonic case is a little more than 2 lb (1 kg). Steel case with same rigidity which usually is used for similar fixtures, would have weight more than 15 lb (7 kg). Besides more than sevenfold advantage in weight, carbon doesn't rust at all and have hi-tech appearance.
> One more factor of success in creating so elegant fixture was cooling system specially constructed for our 12up diodes assemblies. Only one fact about radiator for one assembly - it's weight less 290 gr or 0,64 lb, while weight of a common aluminum radiator with a similar thermal productivity would be more than 2 lb (1 kg), three times heavier.
> Unfortunately, inner configuration of fixture case is very complicated and can be executed only manually. In addition, carbon is quite expensive material. Therefore the price of this concept-fixture is high. However, if the community is interested in such fixture, its price by small-scale production complete with Redundant Power Supply may be about 2000USD.


----------



## gus6464

This thread is a prime example of why the high-end lighting companies will never give a crap about planted tanks. And yes I do not consider BML high-end in any way as their mantra is "hey lets stick as many cheap LEDs as we can on a light but offer people to choose their colors". Come back to me when they can run LEDs higher than 350ma and not have a scorching hot fixture.

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> WOW, you just "politicized" aquarium lighting.. I'll have to tread softly here.
> Not sure why you are no so "gushing" about companies like Kessil or BML (American btw) with their their own strengths in re: to both innovation and quality of product.
> Along w/ another 1/2 dozen companies.
> No matter how you put it.. ADA is cheap diodes in a pretty package. No more no less.
> 
> I see nothing in ADA that is currently "innovative" and to be honest is more "retro" than the current trends. Wireless control, multi spectrum ect.
> Of course this IS a bit contrary to the apparent ADA philosophy of "less is more"...
> 
> You and I apparently have a different idea of innovation..
> THIS company is innovative  Unfortunately not a finished product:
> http://www.reefll.com/
> 
> One doesn't encourage innovation by blindly following a "brand" no matter what direction it goes.
> 
> your "profit motive" goes both ways. Making it "good enough" to squeeze money out of it.. and using ones name to squeeze a bit more.
> 
> Soo if ADA wants to be innovative they better get on the ball w/ some good software, multi-colored LEDs and maybe even some nano powdered diamond encrusted heat sinks or at the least carbon nanotubes or carbon fiber mounts. Not 60's acrylic...
> 
> ADA= innovation.. not in my book. Even Marineland surpasses them at this.
> ADA has their own strengths.. LED lighting is NOT one of them.
> 
> I know this sounds like bashing but I believe it is just honest.. YMMV..
> One last note.. If ADA LED's were $20 I'd "still" have a hard time choosing them for LIGHTING, no matter LED or MH or whatever they currently offer.
> .. but that is just me. My wants/needs/desires.. I TOTALLY understand one size doesn't fit all..
> 
> 
> And again , to be honest.. it sounds more like those that bought into the line defending their turf more than "bashing" (without facts i.e PAR/spectrum measurements) by those that haven't.
> 
> Innovation:


Haha I like how you say reefll is innovative when in reality they are far from it. You would know this if you frequented the reef forums but they are quite the shills. Their pucks are so-so, their drivers are basically LDDs on a board, and their controller is nothing to really brag about. The only thing they got that's unique is their quad core violet stars which no one else carries but they charge ridiculous shipping to the US.

Dave from nanobox offers a better product as his pucks put out superb color, are cheaper, and are even made in the US.


----------



## jeffkrol

I was referring to using carbon fiber frames.. Heat pumps ect. I have my own issues w/ their LED "choices".. As to, on one hand criticizing BML for "cheap" diodes while glancing over the even cheaper diodes in ADA LED's is disingenuous to say the least. 
Pot calling kettle black comes to mind.. IF you want an "opinion" on BML.. my take is they made a major mistake w/ their choice of drivers.. but at least they are aware of this and are progressing (hopefully if rumors of multichannel lights are true)
Of course it occurred mostly by being Apex dependent, thanks to, in part, Reefers..

I spend and post at Reef Cent.. and lurk @ Nanotank, reef wherever my info search takes me.. as well.

Using SinkPAD II tech is somewhat "innovative" and not just strips glued to aluminum.. 

As to BML.. multi-variable light choices and "cutomization" is "innovative" in this industry of.. here use this..


----------



## dru

Interesting discussion 

This almost sounds like the mac vs windows PC debate

A relatively overpriced, slick looking product with moderate specs vs a more reasonably priced product with better functionality 

High-end (priced) products always seem to develop a following that will defend the company like they have a stake in their success and write off criticisms as just people 'hating'. 

My non-technical opinion is the AZOO light sure is purty. I am not in the market for a nano light but if I was I would consider it. IIRC I paid ~$80 for my 16w Wave-point 6500k LED which is the only high light fixture I have right now so the price point is reasonable for a nice design. 

Now if AZOO made a version that would work on my 60p for around $125 I would be all over it.


----------



## gus6464

I just find it funny that people are all going crazy over a light that only does what it advertises on a 3 gallon tank and for almost $100 no less yet ADA is expensive.


----------



## eirose

dru said:


> Interesting discussion
> 
> This almost sounds like the mac vs windows PC debate
> 
> A relatively overpriced, slick looking product with moderate specs vs a more reasonably priced product with better functionality
> 
> High-end (priced) products always seem to develop a following that will defend the company like they have a stake in their success and write off criticisms as just people 'hating'.
> 
> My non-technical opinion is the AZOO light sure is purty. I am not in the market for a nano light but if I was I would consider it. IIRC I paid ~$80 for my 16w Wave-point 6500k LED which is the only high light fixture I have right now so the price point is reasonable for a nice design.
> 
> Now if AZOO made a version that would work on my 60p for around $125 I would be all over it.


I doubt if Azoo can make a version for 60p. The critical problem is how to support the L shape piece @ that length. 

Some of the discussion remind me that as an architect, I had heard people question why come to us to do interior design and they think Ikea provide better design. It just because you are in different target market.

For example, lots of engineer like android phone more than Iphone because they can't easily modify their phone. however, other people may not think this way. Same thing happen @ luxury goods market. nothing wrong, it just different target market. When I was younger, I diy all pc stuff. 20 years later, I realize my hour rate is not worth for me to do some thing in cheap way. I think I have ability to copy/diy an Aquasky now, but it will cost me more than retail price. 

ADA did a lot of effort in Asia freshwater aquarium market for sure(Especially aquascape). They help people look at the aquarium from art side not only just a fish tank. Therefore, they try to build a system and provide to people to get in easier, more reliable. Aquasky with other ADA lighting just one of the products which are part of this system. If you ever visit their headquarter/Gallery in Japan with more than 40 aquascape tanks for free, you should know they are not only try to make money.
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/gallery/
If so, they can sell their product through internet. Instead, they only sell @ their local store to help those store compete with online seller. Why? Because it's the best way for people to see the beautiful tank in eye/store to convince them to join us. I know this off-topic a bit, but I do envy people who live in asia city where they have bunch aquarium store in one street and you can enjoy all your weekend there!!! 

Back to Azoo Flexi mini. I want to ask a question first. How many people actually own more than 5-10 nano tanks with aquascape here especially in USA? And how many of you use more than 5 types of LED in these nano tanks? Tehc. information is not the only thing. For Mini-S size tank, Flexi is still an expensive choice for a nano tank for most of people. For other size of a bit larger tank, Flexi mini defiantly can't cover whole tank and shouldn't be a choice in my opinion. 

For sure, in nano tank LED market, Flexi mini and Aquasky are almost the only two best options depend on tank size.


----------



## Green_Flash

jeffkrol said:


> WOW, you just "politicized" aquarium lighting.. I'll have to tread softly here.


Couldn't take you serious after this. Nice try to be a sensationalist. 

Please show me where I came in and knocked Azoo, BML or Kessil or any other brand in this thread. Hint: It isn't there.

All I posted was facts like it or not. There is no ''gushing'' or ''politicizing'' here. Just straight facts. No matter how you try and spin it.

Also for future reference I do like other products such as Ecotech, AI, ATI, Elos, Royal Exclusive, ATB, Apex, Vertex etc. I did not say other brands were not innovative. All I said was ADA specializes in planted tanks. 
I want first hand, real user experience not hobbyist hearsay.


----------



## talontsiawd

Man, this thread got pretty tense. I have one thing to say about ADA. No matter what you think of their products or their price point, ADA has a track record in planted tanks that really has yet to be matched. You can say lighting isn't their strong point but I can say without any doubt that their lighting will get the job done, and has a track record of doing so.

A track record is valuable. Innovation can be valuable. I am sure we all have something in our lives, be it work or play that we paid more for than another product, maybe even a better product, because it's a proven product. You can't just brush that off. That's a big reason people buy ADA stuff. I know I am kind of flip flopping with ADA, I don't think they make the best everything, but it has proven itself over and over. Again, you can't just discount that. There is incredible value in a proven product and people will pay a premium for it.

As a musician who has worked on and off as a professional, I can tell you I buy many things that are not cheap, but are proven products, benchmark products. The products where the other products that are cheap, possibly even better, were modeled after. I want the work horse, the stuff that works every day. I will pay more for that, I will accept the flaws, it will not bother me because it gets the work done, more people in the door, and more credits on my discography. 

Now, not many Americans are professional aquascapers, I wonder if any do it as a full time gig, but that doesn't mean the same ideals cannot be applied to a hobby. Plenty put race parts on street cars, etc.


----------



## jeffkrol

Green_Flash said:


> Couldn't take you serious after this. Nice try to be a sensationalist.
> 
> Please show me where I came in and knocked Azoo, BML or Kessil or any other brand in this thread. Hint: It isn't there.


I said (w/ corrections) "Not sure why you are not "gushing" about companies like Kessil or BML (American btw) with their their own strengths.
but it was a spur of the moment comment..  


Green_Flash said:


> All I posted was facts like it or not. There is no ''gushing'' or ''politicizing'' here. Just straight facts. No matter how you try and spin it.


Actually you have very little facts but hearsay an innuendo... but that is besides the point a bit.. but what I was referring to was this:


> Too many are entitled and want the cheapest thing that works.


... Really? Wanting a fair product at a fair price an "entitlement"???


----------



## Green_Flash

Actually I do. Lets review what I said in this thread:

1. ADA MH are proven to grow any plant out there, photo cited. Fact 
2. OP does not own ADA MH or Azoo Flex at time of posting. Fact 
3. ADA is a business and like other businesses they have associated costs outside of the product itself and they will make a profit. Fact
4. Not once did I knock any other brand in this topic. Fact 

Zero hearsay. Baseless. 

Entitlement was probably a wrong word choice but the point I was making was that people tend to want something for nothing.

Wanting something at cost or the same cost as a DIY ragtag setup for a manufactured system, _is_ unreasonable.


----------



## jeffkrol

Green_Flash said:


> Actually I do. Lets review what I said in this thread:
> 
> 1. ADA MH are proven to grow any plant out there, photo cited. Fact


Hearsay.. Those plants could have been grown "elsewhere"..or doctored.


Green_Flash said:


> 2. OP does not own ADA MH or Azoo Flex at time of posting. Fact


But the OP tested sauid lights and found them "lacking".


Green_Flash said:


> 3. ADA is a business and like other businesses they have associated costs outside of the product itself and they will make a profit. Fact


Self evident for any surviving company..


Green_Flash said:


> 4. Not once did I knock any other brand in this topic. Fact


Never said you did.. Reread posts..


Green_Flash said:


> Entitlement was probably a wrong word choice but the point I was making was that people tend to want something for nothing.


Incorrect. They just don't want to be taken advantage of.. or deceived..


Green_Flash said:


> Wanting something at cost or the same cost as a DIY ragtag setup for a manufactured system, _is_ unreasonable.


not knowing the cost and profit margin.. more hearsay..and an unnecessary value judgement..


----------



## Green_Flash

1. No chance. There are too many examples to cite. LFS, Hobbyist, videos of initial planting. The plants being sustained long term is sufficient proof. Public Aquariums like the Sumida one use them on their tanks. Still a fact. That was REALLY reaching. 

2. Doesn't change the fact. Also 'lacking' is subjective to user and does not have valid merit here. 

3. Ok so you agree with me. 

4. Ok, agree again.

5. Consumers should do their research first before buying anything. Value and cost is subjective. 

6. No, just no. Had to generalize.

Also the last two you mentioned were IMO. Not attached to what I said in the earlier reply.


----------



## gus6464

Not a flexi-mini and can go on much bigger tanks with same result. Of course this gets no attention on these parts because it's not pushed by certain people.


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## NJAquaBarren

gus6464 said:


> Not a flexi-mini and can go on much bigger tanks with same result. Of course this gets no attention on these parts because it's not pushed by certain people.



Just have never seen it before. So many vendors and other than ada, high-end stuff is stealthy. 

What is it?


----------



## talontsiawd

gus6464 said:


> Not a flexi-mini and can go on much bigger tanks with same result. Of course this gets no attention on these parts because it's not pushed by certain people.


Plus it's made to your own taste. Honestly, there are a few people on this board that I truly wonder if they get paid for stating things. I only say this because, again, as a musician who has done professional work, there are people who actually get paid to endorse things. Sort of off subject but it really makes me wonder when certain things don't make a whole lot of sense in the bigger picture.


----------



## gus6464

NJAquaBarren said:


> Just have never seen it before. So many vendors and other than ada, high-end stuff is stealthy.
> 
> What is it?


Nanobox Flare. He custom makes the housing to whatever color combination you want and any combination you want so if you want a something bigger for say a 60P he can do it. He will also sell you the pucks by themselves if you want to DIY your own light. It's a 2 channel light that can be on a timer or if you want to get fancy controlled by a bluefish, coralux storm, etc.

http://nanoboxreef.com/index.html#homepage


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

Basically, to get back to the point of the thread, Tom was very hyped up because they showed him good "data" like the spectrum graph. However, based on PAR, it seems that this light is basically only great for a Mini S or small cube. Maybe a Mini M. Ironically, now, the parent company is not publishing any of that data, when Tom criticized others for not doing the same. 

And, though I've asked for it several times, no one has offered any horizontal PAR data. I'm not assuming that I'm correct, but I fear the spread of this may be lacking.


----------



## gus6464

The whole point of this thread is that this light was supposed to be the light to save us all from LED mediocrity and now we find out it only works as intended on 3 gallons of water for the low low price of $100.

So much hype about the spectral data and I have yet to see a single chart on this super light which at first was all about advertising "high CRI" and now we see that it's only 85 CRI which is far from "high".


----------



## O2surplus

gus6464 said:


> The whole point of this thread is that this light was supposed to be the light to save us all from LED mediocrity and now we find out it only works as intended on 3 gallons of water for the low low price of $100.
> 
> So much hype about the spectral data and I have yet to see a single chart on this super light which at first was all about advertising "high CRI" and now we see that it's only 85 CRI which is far from "high".


LOL- 3 gallons? Seriously? $100 price tag? AZOO must think that we all must have just fell off the proverbial "Turnip Truck".:hihi:


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## acitydweller

Do u guys actually see Azoo branded on the box? I have this lamp and it's are by flexi...


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> Basically, to get back to the point of the thread, Tom was very hyped up because they showed him good "data" like the spectrum graph. However, based on PAR, it seems that this light is basically only great for a Mini S or small cube. Maybe a Mini M. Ironically, now, the parent company is not publishing any of that data, when Tom criticized others for not doing the same.
> 
> And, though I've asked for it several times, no one has offered any horizontal PAR data. I'm not assuming that I'm correct, but I fear the spread of this may be lacking.


And I've stated in this thread that they(Azoo) are subjected to the same critical comments that other companies are if they do not provide them. 

A small mini LED light that runs 70$ for a 3 gallon tank is a stepping stone to larger LED lights. I do not keep such small tanks, I measured the PAR myself, I was a little disappointed. Color and spectra are good though and then the bigger issue is the height adjustment issue. 

I do not like that.

As you can clearly see, this is not hype, this is fair criticism. When I do the same for the ADA products, fan boys whine about it. ADA products also have their trade offs, they are not perfect, nor is this product. The spectra and the support are done very well, but the PAR and the next step to a larger 60cm length with good PAR is quite another matter. 

You can ask Azoo to publish the data. I suggested that they do and it would help their sales, but unfortunately, Azoo, ADA, and most makers seem to not to listen. 

They do not lose anything in doing so. Trade secrets? No, anyone can buy the product and then see what the LED's are and mix to get the same type of thing. 

I have never understood this corporate behavior. And I've asked dozens of times from several companies. :icon_idea


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

plantbrain said:


> And I've stated in this thread that they(Azoo) are subjected to the same critical comments that other companies are if they do not provide them.
> 
> A small mini LED light that runs 70$ for a 3 gallon tank is a stepping stone to larger LED lights. I do not keep such small tanks, I measured the PAR myself, I was a little disappointed. Color and spectra are good though and then the bigger issue is the height adjustment issue.
> 
> I do not like that.
> 
> As you can clearly see, this is not hype, this is fair criticism. When I do the same for the ADA products, fan boys whine about it. ADA products also have their trade offs, they are not perfect, nor is this product. The spectra and the support are done very well, but the PAR and the next step to a larger 60cm length with good PAR is quite another matter.
> 
> You can ask Azoo to publish the data. I suggested that they do and it would help their sales, but unfortunately, Azoo, ADA, and most makers seem to not to listen.
> 
> They do not lose anything in doing so. Trade secrets? No, anyone can buy the product and then see what the LED's are and mix to get the same type of thing.
> 
> I have never understood this corporate behavior. And I've asked dozens of times from several companies. :icon_idea


I recognize that you aren't really being hypocritical here, it's more like Azoo isn't following through.


----------



## plantbrain

ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I recognize that you aren't really being hypocritical here, it's more like Azoo isn't following through.


Exactly.

And they are not preventing anyone from stealing their data or work, anyone can buy the unit and then take it apart and copy it.


----------



## Anon

gus6464 said:


> This thread is a prime example of why the high-end lighting companies will never give a crap about planted tanks. And yes I do not consider BML high-end in any way as their mantra is "hey lets stick as many cheap LEDs as we can on a light but offer people to choose their colors". Come back to me when they can run LEDs higher than 350ma and not have a scorching hot fixture.


Hi Folks,

I'm new to The Planted Tank so I'm just feeling my way around. Having said that, I just received an email drawing my attention to the September newsletter. Listed there was this thread. As an Electronics Engineer and tropical freshwater fishkeeper, it will not come as any surprise that I am very interested in the subject of lighting. Particularly, LED lighting for the plants and fish.

The above quote caught my attention. I have a 60cm custom design BML lighting fixture. It is fitted inside the aquarium hood/canopy. I run it at 50 - 60% of its max. light output. I have two ultra-quiet fans circulating air around it and it runs warm but not hot. I can quantify the figures but I do not have this data to hand. It is by no means scorching hot.

More information to follow.

BTW, I'm in the UK.

Anon


----------



## Regelian

I'm jumping in late on this discussion, but wanted to make a few points that, apparently, are not being considered.

PAR is light between 400nm and about 750nm. Any wavelengths between this are in the PAR range. This means that 'high PAR ' is relative. High in what? One sees from some of the graphs posted that the actual spectrum can vary greatly. What parts of the spectrum are useful for photosynthesis is the amount we need to observe. Not the total output of PAR range radiation. Without this weighing of the spectrum against the light emmision, PAR is simply BS!

Second CRI (colour rendition index) is stricktly interesting for the human eye in air. Under water we have a different effect as water attenuates light, which means it filters the spectrum. Fine and good, but the reality is most aquarists want more colour than is actually perceived by the human eye at 100 CRI. We want sparkling blues and ruby reds. This is not the natural colour of many animals and plants, rather reflects the spectrum reflected back to our eyes from a given light spectrum. CRI is simply a marketing criteria for reading lamps, not for aquarium lighting. Certainly usefull for general light spectrum understanding, but a higher CRI is not what most actually want. We tend to bluer spectrum which may have a CRI of 80 or so. Our eyes love it and the plants don't give a damn, as long the the correct wavelengths are available for photosynthesis.

Also, pigment developement is often associated with a protection mechanism from the plants. A strongly red plant is protecting itself against red radiation. The proper amount of the correct part of the red spectrum will support the pigment production. Not enough and the foliage will tend to green to allow for stronger photosynthesis. Too much and the plant will not grow and may die. What we consider a beauty trait is actually an adaptation to particular light availability. The plant is attempting to regulate its metabolism.

LEDs are my only lighting for marine and fresh, as they allow the greates flexibility. They are a pandora's box for beginners and those who do not want to understand spectrumand its effects on specific plants and animals. For them there are pre-programmed LED fixtures that simply imitate what we knew from T-5s, etc. A sophisticated LED system will allow for complete day-night programming with everythings from sunrise-sunset scenarios, moonlight and storms. There is not real limit to the flexibility of this technology. An amazing tool for the aquarist, if often expensive at the start. In electricity and bulb replacement savings it does pay for itself in about 2 years. The new doors it opens are exciting.

Please take this all in the spirit meant: to understand what these marketing vocabularies actually represents. We are all to often led astray by the current vogue and miss the bigger picture.

cheers,


----------



## limz_777

being neutral here , nor a ada or azoo fanboy , btw do you guys know that Azoo is a very old brand in the aquarium trade , i was buying azoo products even before ada comes out


----------



## Jalopy

It's about time though vendors start disclosing more information like par or cri. I've bought lights before and not really know if they were low, med, or high lights. I just get the standard yes it'll grow anything you want. Sure it might but it makes dialing in ferts, photoperiod, and co2 that much harder. This is especially true for new hobbyists like me. I really think the lack of coherent information is partly to blame for this hobby not being as popular in the US. Whenever people come over and see my crappy tank, they love staring at it but they don't actually want to start a tank because of previous bad experiences with an inadequate starter setup from years ago. Of course they were assured that whatever crappy lights they had could grow anything. Oh and by the way buy these all in one ferts and this cartridge co2 system.


----------



## Cardinal's Keeper

gus6464 said:


> Not a flexi-mini and can go on much bigger tanks with same result. Of course this gets no attention on these parts because it's not pushed by certain people.



I would point out that he does not actively push the "flare" version which I geared a little more towards plants. His main business and focus is for reefs and where he spends 98% of his focus. The only reason the flare came about is a friend/customer of his that has influence requested it. In general his lights have WAY too much par for planted tanks. 

However his business is geared to the "custom" aspect, so I think we will be seeing this expand. But they are still pricey for most here. 

As far as this Azoo light, I happily ordered one to try on a mini S. Calm down people, if your not a fan then you are not giving your dollars. That's all companies listen to and respect these days anyway. I on the other hand think this is great and I'm excited.


----------



## jeffkrol

gus6464 said:


> Nanobox Flare. He custom makes the housing to whatever color combination you want and any combination you want so if you want a something bigger for say a 60P he can do it. He will also sell you the pucks by themselves if you want to DIY your own light. It's a 2 channel light that can be on a timer or if you want to get fancy controlled by a bluefish, coralux storm, etc.
> 
> http://nanoboxreef.com/index.html#homepage


Well one, yes "pushing" here is based on use, availability, and commonality..

In regards to this specific "series" ect.. They also do not list PAR data.. or much really..
Here is the listing of the "Flare"..


> The Nano Box Mini Flare is the smallest high powered LED lamp out the planted market. Measuring in at a tiny 5"x3"x1.25". The Flare is ideal for a 14" planted aquarium or smaller. The actively cooled unit houses nine Philips Rebel ES LED's. Ranging from warm white, neutral white, cool white, green and deep red. Each unit has two channel dimming and can be upgraded to the CORALUX Storm controller. The units come standard with a wiring hanging kit, tank mounting gooseneck design or tank mounting metal fixed arm. Custom colors, mounting, LED channels are available upon request. The Flare matches the style of ADA, picO and Do!Aqua tanks perfectly! Every unit is hand built in the North Carolina.


What is the standard "stock" configuration for each channel?? Wattage and PAR??
http://nanoboxreef.com/store.html

Seems like a nice light w/ some poor marketing..


----------



## 58417

*Questioning the results from calibrated Apogee MQ-200 PAR meter*



jeffkrol said:


> Found one more. STILL not 120PAR ... The Czech site is an outlier.


All the measurements on my site were made by calibrated Apogee MQ-200 PAR meter [PS: You can use Google Translate]. Also all the data are clearly presented together with all the parameters and pictures. I don't know what more can I do for publishing the objective results of my findings? If someone says that he/she measured 70 µmol PAR at the substrate for Aquasky 361 (ADA Mini M), did you read what PAR meter he/she used? → He/she used DIY PAR meter from Hoppy! So you should be more skeptical about DIY PAR meter then calibrated one from Apogee.


----------



## NJAquaBarren

What's your website kwisatz? I'd like to check it out. Missed it if it's in this thread somewhere.


----------



## 58417

NJAquaBarren said:


> What's your website kwisatz?


http://prirodni-akvarium.cz/ → czech version (use Google Translate)
http://prirodni-akvarium.cz/en/ → english version (not updated as much as the czech version, because only about 5% of users visiting this site are from USA/GB; fewer articles, fewer tests)

_PS: Right now I'm working on extensive ORP (redox) monitoring of water in planted tanks. I use Extech SD100 pH/ORP meter for that, which can save data to SD card in set intervals ... so I decided to do 7-day's charts together with laboratory water analysis to see if there is any correlation with algae and overall quality of the aquatic environment represented by redox and/or COD (chemical oxygen demand) parameters._


----------



## jeffkrol

kwisatz said:


> All the measurements on my site were made by calibrated Apogee MQ-200 PAR meter [PS: You can use Google Translate]. Also all the data are clearly presented together with all the parameters and pictures. I don't know what more can I do for publishing the objective results of my findings? If someone says that he/she measured 70 µmol PAR at the substrate for Aquasky 361 (ADA Mini M), did you read what PAR meter he/she used? → He/she used DIY PAR meter from Hoppy! So you should be more skeptical about DIY PAR meter then calibrated one from Apogee.


I tried not to imply that any was more accurate than another..The more data points the merrier..  
And actually Apogee's "error" coefficients and sensor design are not very good for LED's.. 
The Apogee "accuracy" will highly depend on LEd spectral content:
http://www.ces.uoguelph.ca/TechNotes/TechNote_004-2011.pdf

as to your measurements did you do, as apogee suggests.. correct for these errors?
http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/light-intensity-measurements-for-light-emitting-diodes-leds/

as a side note.. any LED fixture w/ 660nm red peak spectral response will be way under sampled..
"Royal blue" and "violet" also have some issues.









That said, I have nothing against your objective analysis... and thank you for the effort.

addendum:
Point is I have very little trust in any "absolute" PAR measurements using an Apogee..


> Conversely, Apogee quantum sensors and meters are more sensitive to green and red wavelengths (above 500 nm) compared to blue wavelengths, and thus read high under green and red LEDs. The broadband white LEDs output a small proportion of radiation beyond the upper end of the Apogee quantum sensor/meter sensitivity range (665 nm), and thus yield low measurements for the white LEDs.


http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/content/Quantum-Sensors-LEDs-Downing-College-September-2012.pdf


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## kubiztzar

regarding this AZOO Flexi LED, is it somewhat correct to assume that it would put you in the high light range for the MINI-S, a medium/high light range for the MINI-M and a lower/medium light range for something like a 12"x12"x12" cube?


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## vraev

Love that betta tank Tim. very nice.


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## plantbrain

Oliver Knott posted a few pics of his tanks he did with the light also. 

PAR, the meter and LED corrections, the comparative difference might be best focused on what we really are interested in, growth rates. 

LED's can produce growth rate differences all over, so general plant growth rates sometimes are easier than trying to adjust for meters and LED's types. 

Azoo did this as well, and red pigment content. This correlated with the spectra chart.

My gripes are 2 parts: they did not publish this to support their own product and the sucker has no height adjustment, a MUST for any open top light source.

I was curious as to why show me the data and then not publish it. That makes little sense to me.


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## kubiztzar

just looking for a generalized answer...
regarding this AZOO Flexi LED, is it somewhat correct to assume that it would put you in the high light range for the MINI-S, a medium/high light range for the MINI-M and a medium light range for something like a 12"x12"x12" cube? anything deeper than 12" maybe a lower/medium light range? accounting for a 1" or so substrate.


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## micheljq

Where is that showroom located Timline?

Michel.


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## jeffkrol

plantbrain said:


> I was curious as to why show me the data and then not publish it. That makes little sense to me.




It is disappointing...


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## dhavoc

kubiztzar, i use this on a mini-m and its med light at best. with its fixed mounting position and length, i wouldn't even bother on anything larger than a mini-m. as you can see in the pics of the showroom (looks like Aqua Forest in SF) it has only mosses and shrimps in those 30C's. it cant be mounted centerline front/back on anything more than a mini-s. if they stuck these leds in variable mounts and more of them, it would be a nice nano tank fixture. as they stand right now though, its a novelty unless you have mini-s tanks.


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## plantbrain

dhavoc said:


> kubiztzar, i use this on a mini-m and its med light at best. with its fixed mounting position and length, i wouldn't even bother on anything larger than a mini-m. as you can see in the pics of the showroom (looks like Aqua Forest in SF) it has only mosses and shrimps in those 30C's. it cant be mounted centerline front/back on anything more than a mini-s. if they stuck these leds in variable mounts and more of them, it would be a nice nano tank fixture. as they stand right now though, its a novelty unless you have mini-s tanks.


Agreed


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## kubiztzar

Thanks, dhavoc. May give this a shot then on my mini-m. Looking for medium light. Hoping they'll be a continued discussion here on this light and really looking forward to a few new journals with this AZOO Flexi mini in action. Thanks for the advice, guys!


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## H2OGarden

I bought one to use on my Mini M. I'm looking for medium light. The question is, I am buying regular iron-content glass cut to cover my tank as I'll house a Betta in it. Will this cut the light down to low light levels and thus not be worth the expense?

If so, what would be a better, cheaper light to buy? I prefers clear glass top but no cant find anyone to cut it for the price anywhere near what I want to pay for it

I'm new to planted aquaria and going low tech. 

Thanks.


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## Squrl888

The regular glass shouldn't be an issue. It transmits about 90% of light. That is good enough for our purposes and won't make a big difference in your light intensity.

The flexi mini seems really cool, so I think it's a good choice. However, there are a lot of other choices out there for less money. A plain old CFL bulb and socket is probably the cheapest. There are a few manufacturers of LED lights here that people like, such as Finnex, Current, etc. However, since you are going low tech these strong lights can be an issue. I don't know the intensity of the Flexi Mini light, but you might need to raise it somehow to reduce it's intensity.


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## H2OGarden

Thank you.


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## vraev

damn! That's awesome. if only these things were more available in Canada...I would get back into aquaria and make one of those smaller tanks.


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## 6Speed

apologies for bumping an oldish thread. 

wondering if this lamp (or two of them) would be suitable for a ada 60f tank. It appears it's about 9" long and the 60f is a 24" tank so assuming two of these could cover the whole tank?


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## kilauea91

6Speed said:


> apologies for bumping an oldish thread.
> 
> wondering if this lamp (or two of them) would be suitable for a ada 60f tank. It appears it's about 9" long and the 60f is a 24" tank so assuming two of these could cover the whole tank?


Its arm only protrude 12cm and won't cover the whole depth (12"=30cm) of a 60f, assuming you clamp the fixture on the back. 


Flexi mini spec


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## 6Speed

kilauea91 said:


> Its arm only protrude 12cm and won't cover the whole depth (12"=30cm) of a 60f, assuming you clamp the fixture on the back.
> 
> 
> Flexi mini spec


Ah yes, forgot about the depth part. Wonder if you could clamp to the side of the tank and use the swing arm to position light exactly where wanted?


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## kilauea91

6Speed said:


> Ah yes, forgot about the depth part. Wonder if you could clamp to the side of the tank and use the swing arm to position light exactly where wanted?


It'll be still short of covering the whole tank wide. If you really want them, You could clamp it on a DIY riser and put it over a glass tank cover. But then, spreading the light evenly over a 60f will still be a challenge.

Honestly, buying 2 would cost you ~$150. You could have a lot of better, elegant choices for the same price that'll fit the bill nicely. 

Other than that, it is a good fixture and I like it. I have one clamped to a DIY acrylic stand that sit on top of my 10g shrimp tank glass cover, since there are no demanding plants nor co2/fert dosing, so it's ok. Monte Carlo is crawling slowly right under it and has turned my Bacopa caroliniana's leaves bearing brownish/red hue - something could never be seen even under much stronger finnex ray2. The color rendering under the light is more vivid, supposedly attribute to its Hi CRI LEDs.


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## 6Speed

kilauea91 said:


> It'll be still short of covering the whole tank wide. If you really want them, You could clamp it on a DIY riser and put it over a glass tank cover. But then, spreading the light evenly over a 60f will still be a challenge.
> 
> Honestly, buying 2 would cost you ~$150. You could have a lot of better, elegant choices for the same price that'll fit the bill nicely.
> 
> Other than that, it is a good fixture and I like it. I have one clamped to a DIY acrylic stand that sit on top of my 10g shrimp tank glass cover, since there are no demanding plants nor co2/fert dosing, so it's ok. Monte Carlo is crawling slowly right under it and has turned my Bacopa caroliniana's leaves bearing brownish/red hue - something could never be seen even under much stronger finnex ray2. The color rendering under the light is more vivid, supposedly attribute to its Hi CRI LEDs.


Very good to know! Thank you for taking time to help! 

Can your recommend a fixture, or fixtures, that would work well for the 60f and also have an elegant look?


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## kilauea91

6Speed said:


> Very good to know! Thank you for taking time to help!
> 
> Can your recommend a fixture, or fixtures, that would work well for the 60f and also have an elegant look?


Depends on what light intensity you are looking for at the substrate. 60F is very shallow but the footprint is quite large. It'll be necessary to raise the light for coverage if you go with single fixture. I am not sure where you are geographically located and the availability, Finnex, CurrentUSA Sat pro are the common choices for about the same cost of 2 flexi mini. I personally picked current sat +. I'll probably get medium-low light range if raised 2-3" above. Elegant or not I don't know, it's very subjective. Do a search in Journal forum to see how folks did to their 60F will give you some idea.


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## mattz1

The flexi mini is a great light. I love the way it looks and the how it swings out of the way. It provides enough light for the MC on the bottom of my 5.5.

That said, it is only going to look nice on a 5.5 gallon or smaller tank. I think it it is really designed for the mini M and mini S sized tanks.


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## nips

I recently visited their Facebook page and found out they had a new version. Does anyone have any info on it? It seems really pricey but was curious whether it's improved enough to light something bigger than an ADA mini-s now


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