# Does substrate matter in the long term?



## tanaka (Jan 22, 2015)

I came by the only local supplier of freshwater plants in my area the other day. I asked the guy who runs the place about the substrate in different show tanks. He got Activ Flora in smaller tanks that he's trying to carpet and regular gravel in the huge 500+ gallon show tanks.

I asked him why he doesn't use nutrient rich substrate or root tabs and he said it doesn't matter in the long term. I assume he's relying on gravels to absorb nutrients from fish waste and liquid dosing. From what I've heard, I should supplement new root tabs every 6 months or so. Does it really make a different if i dont?


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## natebuchholz (Sep 28, 2013)

Some substrates offer other benefits besides providing nutrients in the short term. 

Some are inert and provide nothing so you can add your own ferts and it does not alter the water quality. 

Some will buffer ph or hardness to accommodate different types of plants and fish.

Some are nutrient rich with good grain sizing that helps with the establishment of foreground plants. 

Substrate does matter. You wouldn't build a house on a crappy foundation.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

If you are fertilizing, it doesn't matter.


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## hollo (Jun 14, 2014)

I've noticed that the same plants with the same ferts will have better root systems in pea gravel vs. regular aquarium gravel (the only twp substrates I currently have experience with) and I'd assume they'd have even better root systems in softer substrate, such as sand (I'll be finding that out shortly as I'm going to be switching m regular gravel out for eco complete sand).


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> If you are fertilizing, it doesn't matter.


Mostly this

As long as root feeders have nutrients from tabs or whatever then you are fine.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I don't know that substrate matters all that much but Anubias roots are sure more robust if they get from the wood/rock down into the substrate. The mulm in the high CEC stuff+gravel substrate I have might be doing something for the plants.


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## alberth (Feb 13, 2015)

I also had the same question when trying to decide which substrate to use. I went with eco-complete as folks here mentioned it can be reused and wont break down like aqua soil after a couple of years. Only downside is you have to supplement with root tabs after a few months.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

Eh... choosing the right substrate is the most important decision in ensuring the long term health of your planted tank (paraphrasing Takashi Amano).

You want something with high CEC that can hold and BUFFER nutrients, not gravel and not sand. Sure you can fertilize, or just rely on water column dosing, but if you forget your flora dies, if you overdose you fauna dies. Rock+sand is bound for instability and eventual failure.

Cation exchange capacity for soils; soil textures; soil colloids[6]
Soil	State	CEC meq/100 g
Charlotte fine sand	Florida	1.0
Ruston fine sandy loam	Texas	1.9
Glouchester loam	New Jersey	11.9
Grundy silt loam	Illinois	26.3
Gleason clay loam	California	31.6
Susquehanna clay loam	Alabama	34.3
Davie mucky fine sand	Florida	100.8
Sands	------	1 - 5
Fine sandy loams	------	5-10
Loams and silt loams	-----	5-15
Clay loams	-----	15-30
Clays	-----	over 30
Sesquioxides	-----	0-3
Kaolinite	-----	3-15
Illite	-----	25-40
Montmorillonite	-----	60-100
Vermiculite (similar to illite)	-----	80-150
Humus	-----	100-300

What are the best aquasoils made of? Humus (worm castings, high CEC) + montmorillonite / clay binder (high CEC) + some other substance having high CEC like zeolite, charcoal (more CEC buffer!), etc + other misc like beneficial bacteria/fungi/whatever. Mixed together and baked at high heat so they don't fall apart immediately. Well the fungi and bacteria are added after baking so they don't die, but you get the drift.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> If you are fertilizing, it doesn't matter.


Really?

What about PH, what about buffering?
Substrate is a very big deal and has a huge impact on how easy the tank is to maintain for a given criteria...


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## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

Substrate choice depends upon your goals. For high tech tanks with rapidly growing plants high CEC substrates can help balance the nutrient availability. Low tech tanks are fine in with sand or gravel if fertilizing. If not fertilizing higher CEC soils are better. There is also the factor of plant choice. For example my crypts do awesome in sand but not as well in my MGO tanks capped with eco-complete.


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## Chlorophile (Aug 2, 2011)

That makes even less sense.
Crypts love NPT set ups, root feeders all the way!
The lower tech your set up the more stabile it will be with a good substrate, high tech tanks can probably make due without except for PH is still gonna be a pain, organisms dont always react to carbonic acid pH the same way they would to humoc acid


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

A low tech tank is often set up that way so you have less to do. Less to worry about. 
Using a high CEC substrate is an excellent way to fertilize a low tech tank. The steady source of nutrients from a high CEC substrate is almost like have fertilizer tablets in the substrate. 

Yes, you have to make sure the fertilizers are in there, and renew them as the plants use them. But in a low tech set up you could use fertilizer tablets, or water column dosing less regularly, or less often and depend on fish food to be the major source of nutrients. The high CEC substrate evens out the supply of fertilizers.


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## jeffturneraz (Apr 28, 2014)

I started out putting capped Osmocote in my sub...I see the pellets, undissolved surface now and then after being in there forever. 

I just stopped using them. So far...my plants seem fine. I am using Ecocomplete, it's over a year old. Not sure if the nutrients it came with are still working but I haven't enriched the sub in a long time.


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## Soxfandowd (Aug 1, 2014)

I'm going to be setting up a larger tank (once I decide on the size) . I am planning on using Activ Flora as the substrate. Should I put fert tabs down as well? Will that be overkill in regards to fertilizer? More is not necessarily better.... 
Also any opinion on putting egg crate down under the substrate? Pros? Cons? 
Thanks!


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## natebuchholz (Sep 28, 2013)

Soxfandowd said:


> I'm going to be setting up a larger tank (once I decide on the size) . I am planning on using Activ Flora as the substrate. Should I put fert tabs down as well? Will that be overkill in regards to fertilizer? More is not necessarily better....
> Also any opinion on putting egg crate down under the substrate? Pros? Cons?
> Thanks!


You will not need fert tabs until the substrates nutrients have been used up. 

Egg crate can be good to get hardscape elements off the tank bottom and to keep steep substate slopes intact. IMO if they are going to be used you should put something between the bare glass bottom and the egg crate to prevent scratching.


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## Xirxes (Aug 18, 2008)

All substrates end up dead in regards to ferts. Even new, the fert tabs you should be using (Growpower+ here) will massively out fertilize the substrate alone, so in the end it doesn't matter for ferts.

As far as what makeup and grain size, this is important, but most sand is inert. Inertness is key. We don't want GH or KH it pH increased without us specifically adjusting it. We also want a mixed gravel size to allow proper rooting.

Sand provides all of this as well.

I used 20+ bags of eco complete in the 240, but I still root-tabbed day one, and I know the soil itself is fert-dead now 2 years later without tabs, yet the grain size is good to hold stem plants at 2" substrate even with rowdy 7" clown loaches mucking about.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

From plant's perspective,the nutrient's found in the substrate ,plus water column dosing as needed ,provide the greatest benefit.
Either or can work alone ,or in tandem.
Is said that soil substrates which may contain nutrient's initially on their own, or added by you/me , can peter out after a year but as most folks can't seem to leave a tank set up for this long,,I think most plant's would do well for longer than these people are able to leave it.
Add water column dosing to enhanced or inert substrates ,or root tabs as needed ,and tank(S) could run for much longer without plant's suffering.
If dosing EI with near any substrate,the plant's will take their nutrient's from the water and the substrate serves to hold the plant's in place.Enhanced substrate is a plus for plant's when EI dosing.
I mix clay,peat,with dirt for my tanks are long term affairs and the extra CEC capacity of clay/peat allows the soil to collect waste and hold it longer for the plant's.
I also add nutrient's via the water column and from plant's perspective, it's a win win.
Regular weekly 50% water changes while light's are off ,and my tanks run for year's.


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## Verivus (Jan 6, 2015)

I use inert blasting sand. I have absolutely no issues growing any plant I want by using root tabs and liquid fertilizers for the water column.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> If you are fertilizing, it doesn't matter.


 
They will need at last root tabs along with fertilizing if you have zero nutrient graded substrate. Though if you have like java fern, mosses, anubias and dwarf baby tears "only" then you can get by with a weak base.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Krispyplants said:


> They will need at last root tabs along with fertilizing if you have zero nutrient graded substrate. Though if you have like java fern, mosses, anubias and dwarf baby tears "only" then you can get by with a weak base.


 No,this is not so.
You can grow plant's with inert substrates such as plain old play sand with nothing more than adding nutrient's to the water.
Plant's don't care where the nutrient's are,they will take them from the water,the substrate,or both.
Course being able to draw nutrient's from both area's is ideal, and can help if one is away on vacation and can't be there to dose the water or one forget's to dose the water..


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> No,this is not so.
> You can grow plant's with inert substrates such as plain old play sand with nothing more than adding nutrient's to the water.
> Plant's don't care where the nutrient's are,they will take them from the water,the substrate,or both.
> Course being able to draw nutrient's from both area's is ideal, and can help if one is away on vacation and can't be there to dose the water or one forget's to dose the water..


Do you know exactly how much nutrient it's holding? How deep will the nutrient be held into the substrate? Does the nutrient level decrease as it gets deeper? My personal opinion is most heavy root feeders will show many signs of nutrient deficiency when placed in play sand with water column dosing only without root tabs. Especially the very fast growing ones.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Krispyplants said:


> Do you know exactly how much nutrient it's holding? How deep will the nutrient be held into the substrate? Does the nutrient level decrease as it gets deeper? My personal opinion is most heavy root feeders will show many signs of nutrient deficiency when placed in play sand with water column dosing only without root tabs. Especially the very fast growing ones.


 No I do not know exactly how much nutrient the plant is holding or how deep the nutrient might be.
Nobody else does either.
As I mentioned,,to be able to draw nutrient's from both the water and the substrate is ideal from plant's perspective.
As for fast growing rooted plant's,,I have vals and water sprite which most consider fast grower's growing currently in nothing but play sand in 55 gal with 1/2 tsp KNO3,1/2 tsp KH2PO4,1/2 tsp K2SO4 and 1/2 tsp CSM+B once a week.
The only thing hampering their growth is one A rivulatus and one royal pleco:hihi:
I grow enough to pull some out about every three weeks to take to local fish store and trade for credit.
Anyone can try this and see for themselves.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> No I do not know exactly how much nutrient the plant is holding or how deep the nutrient might be.
> Nobody else does either.
> As I mentioned,,to be able to draw nutrient's from both the water and the substrate is ideal from plant's perspective.
> As for fast growing rooted plant's,,I have vals and water sprite which most consider fast grower's growing currently in nothing but play sand in 55 gal with 1/2 tsp KNO3,1/2 tsp KH2PO4,1/2 tsp K2SO4 and 1/2 tsp CSM+B once a week.
> ...


I was thinking more like Alternanthera R., Rotala and Ludwigia that actually has leaves to show health status. Water sprite can grow in toilet water and is not a good example. Jungle val is very close to water sprite's status as well.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Your just grasping now.
You made a blanket statement which is not factual and got called on it.
Forget my plant's ,plenty of folks grow plant's in inert substrates with nothing but fertilzer's added to the water.
Try,do,then speak .
As stated, anyone can prove to themselves your statement that ferns,mosses,anubia are only plant's that will grow in inert substrates as patently false.
Will plant's grow better with enhanced substrates/ Yes and I stated as much.
Is it absolutely a necessity with water column dosing?I'll let other's try it and form their own opinion.

Believe I read some year's back, that Tom Barr developed EI method of supplying unlimited access to nutrient's by using inert substrate so that he could see how plant's performed without the benefit of substrate enhancement and only nutrient's were provided via the water column.
I might be wrong but that is my recollection.
Pretty sure he expierimented with more than mosses,anubias,ferns.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

roadmaster said:


> Your just grasping now.
> You made a blanket statement which is not factual and got called on it.
> Forget my plant's ,plenty of folks grow plant's in inert substrates with nothing but fertilzer's added to the water.
> Try,do,then speak .
> ...


Grasping? Inert substrate with larger surface area like fluorite I can see because there is space for nutrients to flow through and collect on. Sand is compact and I believe the nutrients reaching the bottom is very little. I never said that the plants listed will only grow in inert substrate, there for you are not accurate on your assumption. Plug in A. R, Rotala Indica and Ludwigia repens before you over exaggerate on play sand being able to support in prime health on any and every plant out there with only water column dosing. You know well yourself that water sprite is in the category with wisteria. Able to grow with no fertilizing and fish waste only and still look good. I don't see why you would use it as your role model. The most that I've seen out of play sand is, it being a cap over dirt. I've used sand before and without root tabs, the three plants that I listed does not look like they're in their prime health at all. Try? have. Do? done. Then speak? I have the right to with experience son.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Also my statement does not include fluorite, eco, ada or any other kind of nutrient rich sand grade substrate.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

I've always pulled, trimmed and replanted Rotala and Ludwiga species as well as all but one of all the stem plants I have grown in 15+years with a planted tank [P. gayi sends out rhizomes]. Roots are definitely not important for nutrient uptake in most stem plants. I believe Dutch tanks are maintained in this manner as well, they usually have a large number of stem plant species planted.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Kathyy said:


> I've always pulled, trimmed and replanted Rotala and Ludwiga species as well as all but one of all the stem plants I have grown in 15+years with a planted tank [P. gayi sends out rhizomes]. Roots are definitely not important for nutrient uptake in most stem plants. I believe Dutch tanks are maintained in this manner as well, they usually have a large number of stem plant species planted.


I'm confused... Why would roots not be important for nutrient uptake in stem plants? Roots are almost always the most important way for plants to uptake nutrients.


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Water column dosing is sufficient for stem plants. You can test this by growing the plants free floating in the water column. Ludwigia, rotalas, and hygros have all grown for me uprooted with just water column dosing and with no contact to the substrate.


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Soxfandowd said:


> I'm going to be setting up a larger tank (once I decide on the size) . I am planning on using Activ Flora as the substrate. Should I put fert tabs down as well? Will that be overkill in regards to fertilizer? More is not necessarily better....
> Also any opinion on putting egg crate down under the substrate? Pros? Cons?
> Thanks!


Activ Flora has nearly nothing in terms of nutrients for your plants. It's essentially an inert substrate like Eco Complete or sand. So if you have root feeders in your tank, you'll want to add fert tabs. If you're growing simple slow growing low light plants like Java ferns and Anubias, or water column plants like Hortwort, etc., it probably doesn't matter.

Everything depends on plant choice. Some plants really need good ferts available from their roots, whether it comes from a nutrient-rich soil-based substrate or sand with root tabs. Other plants really don't give a fig what's in the soil, as long as they can pull adequate nutrients from the water column. This is why everyone is right in this thread... there is no one-size-fits-all answer to the original question. And that's without getting into subtleties like which plants prefer a more open substrate (like gravel or Eco Complete) and which plants prefer a more dense substrate like sand, for easy rooting.

For some plants, in some setups, yes, substrate "matters". But nearly any substrate can be made to grow nearly any plant, some just require more extra work than others, as opposed to plopping the plant in and watching it thrive right off the bat.


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> Water column dosing is sufficient for stem plants. You can test this by growing the plants free floating in the water column. Ludwigia, rotalas, and hygros have all grown for me uprooted with just water column dosing and with no contact to the substrate.


True, when I think about it but it grows a whole lot faster with it plugged into the substrate and rooted into a nutrient rich substrate. I never seen them look healthy at all floating though, even with the ei method when I float them for a few days. They start to decompose after heavily growing roots so.. I think roots does matter...


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## Soxfandowd (Aug 1, 2014)

*Decisions decisions...*

Thanks for the tips Nate. 

What would you use between the egg crate and the bottom of the tank?
I haven't decided if I'm going to have hill or not but thought that the egg crate would give the roots of the plants something to grab onto?? Maybe?

Or am I just making it more difficult for myself if I want to move the plants later?


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## Soxfandowd (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks Kman for your reply.
I did think that Activ Flora did have nutrients for plants. I chose it for that, the black color and the uniformity of the material. 
I don't have a problem putting root tabs down when I set up the tank but was concerned that I'd have too much fertilizer in my tank.
I really don't want to use MGOPS because of the mess.
Currently my plants are thriving in a 10 gal with just blue gravel. They have nice roots, the leaves are multiplying and the stems are growing.
So even though I'm a newbie, I can see that the plants can grow in an environment without extra nutrients but maybe they'd grow easier with the extra help. 

Katie

Bump: Thanks Kman for your reply.
I did think that Activ Flora did have nutrients for plants. I chose it for that, the black color and the uniformity of the material. 
I don't have a problem putting root tabs down when I set up the tank but was concerned that I'd have too much fertilizer in my tank.
I really don't want to use MGOPS because of the mess.
Currently my plants are thriving in a 10 gal with just blue gravel. They have nice roots, the leaves are multiplying and the stems are growing.
So even though I'm a newbie, I can see that the plants can grow in an environment without extra nutrients but maybe they'd grow easier with the extra help. 

Katie


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## Soxfandowd (Aug 1, 2014)

Soxfandowd said:


> Thanks Kman for your reply.
> I did think that Activ Flora did have nutrients for plants. I chose it for that, the black color and the uniformity of the material.
> I don't have a problem putting root tabs down when I set up the tank but was concerned that I'd have too much fertilizer in my tank.
> I really don't want to use MGOPS because of the mess.
> ...


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## kman (Dec 11, 2013)

Soxfandowd said:


> Thanks Kman for your reply.
> I did think that Activ Flora did have nutrients for plants. I chose it for that, the black color and the uniformity of the material.
> I don't have a problem putting root tabs down when I set up the tank but was concerned that I'd have too much fertilizer in my tank.
> I really don't want to use MGOPS because of the mess.
> ...


The root tabs should take care of fertilization needs without needing to resort to MGOPS.

The color and consistency of the Activ Flora is one of my favorite things about it, too.


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## DevilDogDoc (Dec 12, 2014)

I am far from an expert but my plants are all well and happy in PFS with root tabs and pps pro dosing. 
My Ludwigia are nice and red and growing nicely


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## Krispyplants (Apr 15, 2014)

Your ludwigia only looks healthy at the top. The bottom seems to not have bright colors and cover with algae so them being happy is debatable. Sand without root tabs can be a pain to see certain plants that feeds more from the ground not grow.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I've always looked at the substrate as a safety need. You don't necessarily need it full of nutrients, but it prevents you running short of something in the water column. Especially something like Aquasoil. I typically went 6 mths to a year and the only thing I dosed was K. BTW PFS is a pretty good grain size and it does allow some aeration.


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