# Sulawesi Shrimp Babies!! Update 4.29.08



## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Hey guys. Well I had my first hatching today! I am extremely excited. The species is actually the White Dash Sulawesi Shrimp. The hatchlings are very tiny, a little smaller than RCS hatchlings. However, it seems that the hatchlings are not as small as you would think since the females only carry about 10-15 eggs. They must carry less eggs I suppose in order to hatch larger babies compared to their size. 

Anyhow, enjoy  So it is official, they do breed in freshwater.

Crusta10.de photo of the White Dash Shrimp










*Female in my tank:*





















*Baby White Dash*






































*Newborn CRS*











*10g Tank for size comparison:*











*Orangedelight Shrimp*


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

:biggrin: <<<<<green with jealousy.
Congrats Ryan! They are so awesome. How do you keep your water on the alkaline side for them?


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## medicineman (Sep 28, 2005)

Very good.

Now keep it up and there is no need to destroy the natural population at Sulawesi due to excessive hunting.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

medicineman said:


> Very good.
> 
> Now keep it up and there is no need to destroy the natural population at Sulawesi due to excessive hunting.


thats the plan


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## jinx© (Oct 17, 2007)

Congrats!


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## chaznsc (May 1, 2006)

Ryan, if nothing else you are becoming QUITE the photog! Keep up the good work!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Congrats!!!! roud: 

Keep us posted on how they do?


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## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

wow great job..... want to get some but dont want to get anything i wouldnt be able to breed in my tanks....


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## msjinkzd (May 12, 2007)

that is outstanding! What are the parameters in the tank (ph, hardness, temp, etc)? They are really lovely, congrats.


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## GCD (Feb 21, 2008)

Sweet Wood !!!. Please do keep us posted :wink: .


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## phanizzle (Jun 28, 2007)

Very Nice! Congrats!


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

thanks a lot guys! i really appreciate the kind words. i do not believe that they are difficult at all to breed..

i am keeping them in a 10 gallon tank. 85F temp. ph is right at 7.0 according to the drop tester. using ada aquasoil so i suspect that the water is soft. they are very healthy and active, constantly picking at the glass and substrate.

i should make a video of them. they are really cool.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

A video would be great! Thanks for the great pictures and information


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## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

yes in my city there's a seller of these shrimps. they even breed in the stre's bare tank. i guess it's pretty easy to keep and breed these shrimps. good to know since i've heard that there's a local boom there and everyone around is currently capturing these shrimps with no care for the environment. some even say that the ratio of captured vs shipped shrimps are 2 : 1.

50% deaths that is.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

good to know they're breeding. We can stop catching them from the wild and the price on these will go down.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Yea I wouldn't be surprised if the authorities shut down capturing, if they have the ability to do that. That lake is not like an ocean.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Props on the breeding. In ~2 years when they're as cheap as cherries, I'll have to get some! 



wood said:


> That lake is not like an ocean.


And even if it were, we'd still be pretty good at overfishing it...


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I don't know if I can wait 2 years...
If they're down to $100 a dozen, I'll get them for sure.


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## charpark (Jan 29, 2008)

Thanks wood for confirming these shrimp do breed in FW. It comes to reason as the lake that these shrimp are found has a high altitude relative to sea level. Although Sulawesi is an island, the lake was formed by techtonic activity so it is landlocked from saltwater on all sides and does not have a brackish/wetland type area. The major road (2-lane) going from the lake to the ocean port takes a few hours by car and runs right along the only outlet of this lake. By the looks of that river, I'd be amazed if these shrimp somehow bred in saltwater and managed to get back upstream to the lake.


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## Ulli Bauer (Mar 12, 2008)

Hi Wood,

that's really interesting! Thanks for posting this!

Those shrimp look real nice (although my heart still belongs to the Sulawesi Cardinals...)!

Cheers
Ulli


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## Juan-Carlos (Apr 8, 2004)

Great job Ryan! Thanks for sharing - and of course keep us posted on the progress

Regards,
-Jc


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Update 4.2.08

OK. The babies seem to be growing a bit. They are still hiding of course. They remind me of CRS babies in that they like to hide in the beginning. 

I see them more at close to lights out. They probably have trained themselves to know when the timer is about to turn the lights out and they begin to emerge to feed.

They are pretty active at that time. Fast movers too. 

More updates will follow....


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Update 4.6.08

OK. I keep finding more of the babies. I found these two on the glass and they kept following that Sulawesi Snail ("Tylomelania towutica") which is a beautiful snail to say the least. They have grown but still have a transparent look to them. Their eyes are also golden for some reason. Maybe they get darker as they grow more. They did not react to the camera flash or me getting close to the glass so maybe they are still blind or something and that is why their eyes are golden.

It seemed like they would eat the algae the snail already fed over. Maybe the snails loosens up the algae and makes it easier for the babies to eat. They would pick at the algae directly after the snail moved over it. Very interesting to watch. Maybe they just like the cover or protection that the snail provides.

Sorry that the pics are bad quality, plus there is a lot of algae on the front glass of the tank. I guess it is a good thing to forget to clean the front glass because the babies come out for viewing 

Enjoy....










Close Up




















Close Up


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## phanizzle (Jun 28, 2007)

thanks for sharing!


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

pretty snail... Are they live bearers like MTS?

The shrimps might be eating the snail's slime trail.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

from what I have read they are live bearers like trumpet snails. That is a baby trumpet snail in the last pic I think. I have looked for the baby sulawesi snails as well but it may be hard to distinguish since the trumpets look similar


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I just saw your store... ouch.. $50 for a snail...
hurry up and breed these guys and bring down the price 

I'm sure the snails will breed like snails.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

mistergreen said:


> I just saw your store... ouch.. $50 for a snail...
> hurry up and breed these guys and bring down the price
> 
> I'm sure the snails will breed like snails.


Hah, no 5 of em.


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## ebichu (Mar 22, 2007)

Nice


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## charpark (Jan 29, 2008)

Wow, what a joke! Charging that much for a Sulawesi snail should be a crime. I'm serious. If you stand on the shore of the lake and look into the water, you'll see trails all over the sandy parts of the lake floor. There are so many snails of this species in this lake that their dead shells litter the lake, and the live ones are crawling everywhere. 

I would say in certain sandy areas, I could see approximately five or six per square meter.


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## daFrimpster (Mar 7, 2005)

The market will determine the price. supply vs. demand. New items in this hobby start high. If captive breeding takes off the price will drop. I would guess that the OP had to go to great lengths to get these specimens.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

charpark said:


> Wow, what a joke! Charging that much for a Sulawesi snail should be a crime. I'm serious. If you stand on the shore of the lake and look into the water, you'll see trails all over the sandy parts of the lake floor. There are so many snails of this species in this lake that their dead shells litter the lake, and the live ones are crawling everywhere.
> 
> I would say in certain sandy areas, I could see approximately five or six per square meter.


How much is the plane ticket there and back, plus permits, etc for export/import...


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Congratulations Ryan, the first official record in the states that I've heard of.

Lets look at the coloration. :icon_eek: 

Looks just like that of the parrents?:icon_eek: 

I believe an apology to a small group of people is in order.


Once again congratulations on getting some little ones, lets see if the others also prove my predictions correct.

Can't wait for more photos!

-Andrew



wood said:


> Hey guys. Well I had my first hatching today! I am extremely excited. The species is actually the White Dash Sulawesi Shrimp. The hatchlings are very tiny, a little smaller than RCS hatchlings. However, it seems that the hatchlings are not as small as you would think since the females only carry about 10-15 eggs. They must carry less eggs I suppose in order to hatch larger babies compared to their size.
> 
> Anyhow, enjoy  So it is official, they do breed in freshwater.
> 
> ...


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

I took some more shots today of the baby I found eating on the pebbles in the tank. I suppose this particular species gains more color as it grows. I am confused about its coloration now. It could very well be that there was a Orange Delight or another species pregnant that I did not notice and gave birth. It does have similar marking to the Orange Delight. Perhaps there are 2 different species of babies in the tank. I will solve this riddle in due time. 

You can definitely tell that it is a Sulawesi Baby by the hump on the top of its tail and more importantly that it has fans instead of claws. If you look closely you can see the fans. I observed its behavior and it eats exactly like the adults.

White Dash Mother










Adult Orange Delight










Baby Shrimp on the rock. If you look closely you can see the fans.


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Ryan,
Was this female berried when you recieved it or did you witness the entire breeding cycle?


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

berried when I received it... Had the eggs for about 3 weeks then all of a sudden no eggs but little shrimplets....


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Ahh...
So we are still unsure if they will breed in the home aquarium then! I hope they do! I really hope they do!


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## charpark (Jan 29, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> How much is the plane ticket there and back, plus permits, etc for export/import...


Laurel, the ticket is not cheap. Flying from North Carolina to Sulawesi, the ticket is approximately $7.5k business class on Singapore Airlines. The problem is that near this lake, there is very little settlement. In fact, the only thing I know of in the area is the seaport where most shipping occurs, and the mining company that operates next to the lake. 

Secondly, the last legs of the flight were not even included in the price mentioned above. My flight went from NC to Newark, to Frankfurt, to Singapore, to Bali, to Makassar, to a small town in Sulawesi. The last two flights were not included and were flown on Garuda, and a private company plane respectively. The small private plane was a prop plane to get to the small city. The entire journey took about 72 hours of STRAIGHT travel time. This counts layovers, time on the plane, and waiting overnight (excludes time difference). 

If you plan to work in Indonesia, you will need a work permit. I am guessing that the people who collected these shrimp did not obtain work permits, and if they did, then they bribed a government official. Receiving work permits in this country is not easy and requires about 2 days of in-person processing time, including photographs and fingerprints (mine was in Makassar). Beyond that you need multiple forms and paperwork of course. My permit was obtained by going through a local company as a "contractor" and therefore making the permit process much easier. However, up to a limited number of times you can enter with a temporary work permit which is much easier to obtain.

If I had to guess, I would guess that these collectors are taking advantage of Indonesia's weak infrastructure and government regulation. It is by far the least organized and most corrupt government I have visited. I know it does not rank as low as some countries in S. America or Africa, but most American travelers will be in for a shock if you have any interface with the police/government officials. 

It would be however very easy to hire someone locally (for ridiculously low wages) to capture shrimp. Then it would not be hard to export these shrimp without the government's knowledge, including any regulation or tax. Or like I said, you can easily bribe the right people to get just the permits you require. 

I don't mean to paint the wrong picture, but people that have traveled abroad to some of these countries will know as well. Quite different from the US...imagine trying to bribe the cop that pulls you over for speeding. I know this has gone off on a tangent, but one example I have is my work laptop. I entered and left the country several times, and upon entering the third or fourth time they presented me with a "technology" tax. The government official said it was about $150 USD, but he could reduce it to $70 if he didn't fill out any paperwork and I just handed him the cash. I wonder where that money was going? Although this only happened once out of about eight times traveling back and forth, this is still illustrative of the developing economy and government in this country.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

charpark said:


> It would be however very easy to hire someone locally (for ridiculously low wages) to capture shrimp. Then it would not be hard to export these shrimp without the government's knowledge, including any regulation or tax. Or like I said, you can easily bribe the right people to get just the permits you require.


Wow I may look into that!! I have an uncle that worked in Indonesia for several years and goes back a few times a year. Now if he can get a few hundred netted and shipped that would be great!


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

yea I thought about going there myself 

it is much easier just to let the locals get them. The amount of time and hassle wouldn't be worth it.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Dwarfpufferfish said:


> Ahh...
> So we are still unsure if they will breed in the home aquarium then! I hope they do! I really hope they do!


There have been Europeans that have successfully had a shrimp become pregnant, hatch, and babies survive in captivity. Of course I want to be the first American


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## charpark (Jan 29, 2008)

Yes no doubt raising them in captivity is the best option, and the one I hope we can promote. We should expect the prices to decline over time, the shrimp to become more readily available, and have no negative environmental impact. It would also be more realistic than having to hire someone locally and ship them across country borders, plus the shrimp aare healthier.

Since the lake has such little development, I've always been concerned about the impact of human activity around the area. I know the lake is fairly special...for example, a couple species of fish that are found no where in the world except this lake. Hopefully we can provide a sustainable captivity-bred supply for these guys!


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

All of these babies are from already pregnant females caught in the wild. These are not captive bred babies. These hatched during shipment. They are cute little things.


*Red Goldflake Babies *











































*Baby Brown Camo*


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## mgamer20o0 (Mar 8, 2007)

how do you even see them in the tank lol


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Cardinal Babies all over my tank....

See how many you can count in the photos....


I count 9 in this one:










I count 11 in this photo:


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## kvntran (Feb 16, 2008)

Wood,

Great! in the earlier pictures, I see a lot of brown egg shape things along with the babies, are they unhatched eggs? dead eggs?


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## aznkonner (Oct 18, 2007)

lol i feel like a kid with a "highlights" magazine trying to find the stuff hidden in the picture

btw i think i counted 10 on the first and 12 on the second...but the "extra" ones that i saw could just be a shadow lol


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

kvntran said:


> Wood,
> 
> Great! in the earlier pictures, I see a lot of brown egg shape things along with the babies, are they unhatched eggs? dead eggs?


Yea I think they are either dropped eggs or unhatched.



aznkonner said:


> lol i feel like a kid with a "highlights" magazine trying to find the stuff hidden in the picture
> 
> btw i think i counted 10 on the first and 12 on the second...but the "extra" ones that i saw could just be a shadow lol


Hehe... Here is the answer key... at least the ones I could find...


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## RenationaL (Feb 24, 2008)

Wood, what inspired you to use Matrix pebbles in your shrimp fry tank?
what kind of tank would such a media use be helpful, or really not matter.
Does it make sense to take already old and soiled Matrix pebbles out of
your canister filter, and let your shrimp fry feast on them inside your tank?
are you using Pond size Matrix, or the smaller canister filter size pebbles?


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

RenationaL said:


> Wood, what inspired you to use Matrix pebbles in your shrimp fry tank?
> what kind of tank would such a media use be helpful, or really not matter.
> Does it make sense to take already old and soiled Matrix pebbles out of
> your canister filter, and let your shrimp fry feast on them inside your tank?
> are you using Pond size Matrix, or the smaller canister filter size pebbles?


Matrix is simply a rock that has a lot of surface area to hold beneficial bacteria. Similar to bioballs, filter floss, or ceramic rings. I put them directly in my tank because I use sponge filters so there is no where to put them like you would a canister filter. Also, the shrimp love to eat off of them. It does not make a difference to put them in a filter or on the gravel. The only difference is for aesthetic purposes. Most people would not like to see these matrix rocks in their planted tank.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

Update 4.29.08

The babies are all over the place and seem to be growing and doing well. I sure hope that they grow and start breeding. Would be nice to have captive babies.


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## southerndesert (Sep 9, 2007)

How many days old are these Ryan?

Cheers, Bill


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

since my last post on them was on 4.24.08 I would say about 5 days old. I am definitely keeping an eye on them. They are all over the tank. I have counted at least 30-40. It is difficult to get a wide angle photo of the tank to be able to see them all at the same time. There is yet to be a camera that can replicate the human eye.


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## southerndesert (Sep 9, 2007)

Oops didn't notice it said "hatching today"  

Bill


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