# The case of the missing minnows!



## pwolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

One word. Theft.


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## Charrr89 (May 15, 2013)

My friend used to work at an Lfs in the town I grew up in... He would make deals with friends. He was just a cashier... 
U cud give him $20 cash for him and he would take u around n get what u want and he would legibly pretend scan some high ticket items for sale becuz they have a camera and people would pay about 10% of what they actually are supposed to... 
The missing items wouldn't be in sales report but there also wouldn't be anyway to catch him... But he got caught after a almost a year. He hooked up a person who was close to the owners. The next morning owner showed up with all the items that weren't paid for. My friend got fired.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

Its not theft. Im 100% positive of that. As I said they are vanishing overnight. They are in the tank when I lock up at night, and gone the next morning when I open. I'm the last person out of the store and the first one in. So unless there's some high tech criminal that can copy store keys, and bypass alarm systems just to steal some $2 fish out there....they aren't being stolen.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

How are the tanks divided. Just partitions with slits. Maybe squeezing through to the next tank, and next tank, until they get eaten.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

jeepguy said:


> How are the tanks divided. Just partitions with slits. Maybe squeezing through to the next tank, and next tank, until they get eaten.


Nope. Solid wall dividers. Besides the only tanks they'd be able to slide through if there were slits contain assorted small barbs. Not likely to make snacks of minnows practically the same size as them.


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## pwolfe (Mar 2, 2011)

Set up a webcam on em!


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## jwh0818 (Aug 29, 2013)

Do y'all have critterz gettin loose?

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

A that u have three choices left, theft, which u say no, but I still think so, or they are getting sucked into the filter. If the cant jump, cant squeeze through divider, the loaches would have huge stomachs or be dead if they ate 24 of them. I like the webcam idea. Post a pic of the tank maybe. Might help.
Maybe aliens have developed a taste for minnows!


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## Charrr89 (May 15, 2013)

Maybe the minnows were misplaced???


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## Oceangirl (Feb 5, 2013)

I think they are getting sucked in the filter or eaten too. No way that many fish just disappear. You are the VERY first on in the morning?


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Sucked into the filter is hard to believe too because usually only sick fish will just sucked in. If the filter was that strong to suck in healthy fish then fish would be missing from all of the tanks. I think a close up picture of the tank and a good inspection, or thorough cleaning and emptying might reveal the answer.


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## Templaflower (Dec 2, 2011)

Another question would be how big are the loaches, and how small are the minnows? If they are tiny juveniles rather than close to full sized adults... well that might be asking for it with the larger species of loaches. Admittedly I'm not well versed on non-kuhli species of loach, but I know some can get to predatory sizes. I would definitely think you would see happy round bellies on those loaches though, after minnow feasting.

As for the theft issue- come on now folks. Sure it's possible, but if you were of a criminal bent, would you be taking the cheap white clouds, or would you be taking the expensive plecos and cichlids? If the OP isn't seeing other mysterious disappearances, theft is probably the least likely option.


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## Charrr89 (May 15, 2013)

Templaflower 

Haha... Well as for a cheap item... I manage at my job.. U would never guess someone was stealing 30 gallon trash bags until the next week when it's a full box without bags under a brand spanking new box full of bags. Little things get taken everyday.... Sometimes the cheaper items are the less obvious ? 

But maybe that's not the case here.


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## Templaflower (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, as the OP is the last out and first in, and the alarm hasn't been tripped, it doesn't smell like theft to me. I worked retail for a long time, and I saw my fair share of theft- internal and external. I'm more of a mind to bend towards equipment or predation. I do think, that a night of video surveillance after the minnows come in would help determine exactly what's going on.

You are sadly right though Charrr89- people do the stupidest things, like stealing bags. Pathetic, and why would you risk your job to do something like that, and yet it happens.


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## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

I started reading up on the inhabitants of that tank because your disappearing minnows interest me... I found several instances where people say loaches pick off other fish. One woman wrote about her "serial killer yoyo," another man said they ate all his neons after ridding his tank of snails. The inhabitants you have in there are mostly (if not all) nocturnal feeders and I'm willing to bet that when the lights go out it's feeding time. There were many warnings about territorial aggression with the loaches, and if one has turned minnow murderer it makes sense that many of the others will follow suite. I don't think it's the khuli loach, but those are scavengers and they probably contribute to the clean up and eat any minnow parts that sink to the bottom. Google yo yo loach (or botia loach) eating other fish to see multiple accounts of fish murder. I think the real mystery is why are the loaches going after the minnows and not the danios? Are the minnows smaller? Perhaps the danios were in the tank with the loaches all along so they do not equate them with food? Or maybe it's the minnow behavior, darting around all nervous-like that does them in. Anyway, I bet if you set up a video camera that has a night vision setting, or place a low light near the tank, you would see your loaches evening feeding ritual when you add minnows.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I unfortunately don't have any way to actually video the tank at night, however I will take some pics during my next shift. Here's a bit more info on the situation...

The filter system doesn't have a lot of suction that would suck the adult minnows into it. (Newborn guppys manage just fine.) And there are grates covering the intakes that have narrow (2mm) slits to allow water to pass through. Although the occasional dead fish gets caught on it, it's not strong enough to suck large healthy fish through it.



> Another question would be how big are the loaches, and how small are the minnows?


The biggest fish in the tank are the blue redtail botia loaches. They are each approximately 3-4inches long and there are 6 in the tank. These are my primary suspects.

The minnows and danios are all approximately the same size, about 2 inches. Adults. 



> I know some can get to predatory sizes. I would definitely think you would see happy round bellies on those loaches though, after minnow feasting.


This is kinda what I was thinking too, and if you divide the numbers evenly it's only 4 minnows per large loach. I'd still think you'd see a bit of a belly on the loaches. Not only that but they happily devour their morning meals as well. Can't see them being that hungry after a night of feasting.



> Do y'all have critterz gettin loose?


Altho the occasional animal gets out we haven't lost anything recently. Definitely nothing that would know how to get into the fish tanks and eat the fish... or want to.



> Maybe the minnows were misplaced???





> You are the VERY first on in the morning?


I'm the VERY last to leave, and the VERY first one to come in the next morning. They can't be getting misplaced cus there's no one to misplace them. 



> I don't think it's the khuli loach,


Agreed, they're smaller than the minnows are >_<



> Google yo yo loach (or botia loach) eating other fish to see multiple accounts of fish murder.


I did so, but still doubtful. They are leaving the danio's alone and only eating the minnows that were of the same size. The yoyo's in the tank were about the same size as well.



> Perhaps the danios were in the tank with the loaches all along so they do not equate them with food?


Nope, danios were added after the loaches, and were doing fine for about a week before any minnows were added.


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## Virto (Dec 6, 2012)

Is there a different tank that you can add them to? That would help to rule out the consumption theory, unless they get roomed with another potentially hungry tankmate.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

If they ain't on the floor behind or in front of the tank's,they ain't gettin sucked up into the filter,no cat's left in the store ,then somebody is removing them.
Have kept the loaches with all manner of small fishes ,and don't believe for a minute that they are devouring two dozen dead ones that expire ,or healthy active fish
Easy to find out..remove the loaches to another tank.


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## VivaDaWolf (Feb 5, 2012)

Nthing the suggestion of moving the wcm to a different tank if possible and seeing if they still disappear.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

You can rule out the loaches by relocating all of the other fish except the minnows. Then u know it is tank related.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

Next time I get some minnows in I'm going to put them in a different tank to see if they survive. In the meantime here's a picture of the specific tank in question and one of the entire unit.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

It might take several attempts to find the problem. Reason why.
U move the minnows into another tank and they don't disappear. The previous tank might still be the problem or the loaches.
You put the minnows back in previous tank they disappear. U remove the loaches and minnows dont disappear. U know its the loaches. But if u remove the loaches and the minnows still disappear u know its the tank.
A problem with moving the minnows is u have changed two variables(even more because u have more then one species of loach) 
In an experiment u need to make sure you only change one variable at a time or you will never get a correct result.
I am very interested to learn the results from a proper experiment.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

I've ordered more minnows for tomorrow. I'm going to put half in with the loaches again, and the other half in a tank with neons and other small tetras. We'll see what happens.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Ah. A control group. Even better. Great idea.


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## Sajacobs (Aug 24, 2012)

Lovin this thread. Will the mystery be solved???


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

I am also eager to find out the answer. This would be the quickest way to solve the problem. Your variables are the tank and the loaches. Experiment should be the follows.
Half of the minnows in original tank without loaches. Other half in another tank with the loaches. This will reduce your chance of redoing and reordering more minnows. After one night u will have a definitive answer.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

jeepguy said:


> Half of the minnows in original tank without loaches. Other half in another tank with the loaches.


I'll do that.


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## Kat12 (Aug 11, 2013)

kal_daka87 said:


> I'll do that.



We are almost certain SOMETHING of how/why this is happening has to do with the tank in some way or the inhabitants. For sacrifice more minnows for the reason of "experiment" seems cruel to me. 

There are other variables already - if something was wrong with the minnows, if they didn't adjust to the tank well and died quickly etc - it could be almost as simple as bad fish from your supplier. 

Each new batch of minnows is a variable there is no way to keep things constant. 

Either set them up with fish they will be safe with, or reevaluate your stock and make sure the ones you order you have safe places for.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

Kat12 said:


> We are almost certain SOMETHING of how/why this is happening has to do with the tank in some way or the inhabitants. For sacrifice more minnows for the reason of "experiment" seems cruel to me.
> 
> There are other variables already - if something was wrong with the minnows, if they didn't adjust to the tank well and died quickly etc - it could be almost as simple as bad fish from your supplier.
> 
> ...


if this has happened numerous times then bad stock repeatedly is unlikely, possible, but unlikely. You are correct though. Best option would be to put them in their own tank. Being that this is a store that is not always an option. 
kal_Daka87 posted wanting to know what is happening. I simply answered her question. And perhaps she puts them all 24(full order) in another tank and they disappear. Yes, then the tank has a fault and using my advice now u only lose 12, not 24. Seems more humane to me! But that's an opinion. Everyone has one. No one is 100% right.


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## jagerlite (Dec 14, 2011)

Is there any lips or depressions on inside of door creating a space for the fish to hide in?


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

> For sacrifice more minnows for the reason of "experiment" seems cruel to me.


It's not simply an experiment, nor cruel. It's not like i'm feeding them off for the simple pleasure of it. There is a purpose. I'm trying to find out exactly what's happening to these fish. This will help me better advise my customers on compatibility issues, or other problems and prevent future deaths. This is part of what fish keeping is all about. There are some losses, but that is the unfortunate side of the learning curve. *cue circle of life music*


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

I apologize for using the term experiment, but I felt it was the best way to explain that only moving the minnows to another tank will not necessarily give u an answer. By "testing" each "variable" that is under your control, (bad batch from delivery cannot be controlled) u can conclude a correct answer in a quicker fashion and reduce loses in the future. I felt that using this method u would lose the least amount of fish which in the end is all a store can do in this circumstance. In addition if u gain valuable information regarding ur livestock u will be doing something most other lfs dont do. Give good advice! I can't think of a better reason for an "experiment" then to learn and pass the information learned on to others. 
I apologize to any who get offended by the use of the word, "experiment," but get over it. Its not like these fish are being brought in to be killed outright. How is this any different from people who put shrimp in a betta tank to find out the personality of a betta. It isn't.
I look forward to hearing what happens.


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## Kat12 (Aug 11, 2013)

but that plenty have already been sacrificed for weeks. If you are ruling out them just being bad stock or dying due to stress etc and being scavaged, you have already figured out something in that tank is doing something to them. 

If shrimp are put with betta to determine betta's temperament and the shrimp are all eaten etc you don't continue to try to get him shrimp as tank-mates each week. 

If others have already presented info saying some of the members of that tank are known to eat other types of fish similar to your minnows, and your minnows have disappeared so often from being put in tank with those other fish, why not find another arrangement of what to do with the minnows. Unless you plan to put a black light on the tank and camp out with them and observe. A webcam and laptop would not be hard to hook up and leave on recording to private to youtube or such. It would allow you to view it later and actually see what happens to them.

The information is already available since the trials and experiments have already been done. There is no need to reinvent the wheel - People here have even saved you on some of the research and let you know some of the other inhabitants have been known to eat smaller fish. The goal now should be where to properly safely house the minnows and if no place is available then you are carrying too many species.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

> but that plenty have already been sacrificed for weeks.


Only 2 previous shipments have been "sacrificed" as you say. The first time it happened I figured they'd all been sold when I wasn't paying attention. The second time it happened with a larger number of fish I questioned it and found out they weren't being sold. That is when I posted on the forum.



> others have already presented info saying some of the members of that tank are known to eat other types of fish similar to your minnows


Yes they have. However if you read back through some of the previous posts there are some of those "similar fish" living in harmony with the rest of the tank and have been for weeks if not months. Of course I'd question why the loaches would eat the minnows and not the danios that are the exact same size, and in some instances smaller.



> why not find another arrangement of what to do with the minnows.


I AM finding another arrangement for the minnows. But I'm also trying to get a positive answer on whats going on. I didn't have a proper answer one way or the other as to what was going on.



> A webcam and laptop would not be hard to hook up and leave on recording to private to youtube or such.


I don't have such equipment at my disposal. Once again I mentioned earlier that recording the tank would not be possible overnight!



> The information is already available since the trials and experiments have already been done.


Show me the proof. I searched both the forum and the internet in general to find a decent answer and there was conflicting information everywhere. Forgive me if I don't believe everything I read or see.

I appreciate that you are trying to have the best interest of the fish at heart Kat12, but it seems to me like you're upset over something you shouldn't be. I'm not mindlessly killing fish for the enjoyment of it. I'm doing everything in my power to identify the problem and find out what EXACTLY is going on, and prevent any more fish from dying.

Despite the fact that others have said one thing or another there are far too many variables for one answer to be 100% accurate in EVERY situation. I started this thread to get constructive and helpful suggestions. Perhaps some input from people how have previously had similar experiences.


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## Kat12 (Aug 11, 2013)

kal_daka87 said:


> Only 2 previous shipments have been "sacrificed" as you say. The first time it happened I figured they'd all been sold when I wasn't paying attention. The second time it happened with a larger number of fish I questioned it and found out they weren't being sold. That is when I posted on the forum.



You also have said you are always first in and first out, but also have implied you don't work all the days the store is open and are not the owner etc. 

If it was possible for them to have sold, it could also be possible that others removed the dead fish without properly documenting and without letting you know. 

Do you have a need to continue to get minnows? In the past couple weeks when they have disappeared has anyone asked for some? Maybe a minnow break would not harm the store.


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## alex009 (May 21, 2011)

I have been following this thread for a couple days now and it's like a good mystery novel haha. I hope we find out what happened to the minnows soon! And yes, I agree its better to try to solve the problem rather than go for an easy fix since the OP doesn't want this happening to other stock in the future.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

> You also have said you are always first in and first out, but also have implied you don't work all the days the store is open and are not the owner etc.
> 
> If it was possible for them to have sold, it could also be possible that others removed the dead fish without properly documenting and without letting you know.
> 
> Do you have a need to continue to get minnows? In the past couple weeks when they have disappeared has anyone asked for some? Maybe a minnow break would not harm the store.


I get the feeling you're not reading entire posts or you're just skimming through them and not fully comprehending. I'm not ALWAYS the first in and first out at the store. I've been talking about one 12 hour period of time, on one day of the week. Very specific time frame. Here's how it works....

1. Fish shipment arrives at some point in the afternoon during my evening shift.
2. I put fish in their tanks after floating the bags for approx 5-10 min.
3. Store closes at 9pm all other staff leaves.
4. As part of the end of my shift I check all animals in store are secure, including fish. All minnows are present and comfortable in tank.
5. I leave store and lock up behind me.
6. I go home and go to bed cus I have to be back at the store at 8:30am the next day.
7. 8:30 the next day, I unlock doors, turn on all lights and check animals. Minnows are gone.

So to summarize in case you didn't get it. The minnows disappeared during a single 12 hour period, overnight, when the store was locked and alarmed, and no one else was around.

And yes I have to continue to get minnows. They are an excellent beginner fish, hardy, and no I don't get people that ask specifically for them. However most people don't shop for specific fish. They just go in looking and want something "pretty" It's my job to make sure they have a good selection and that they choose the right fish for their tank and abilities.


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## kal_daka87 (Dec 21, 2012)

For those of you that have been following for curiosities sake I did finally figure it out today.

Not wanting to risk a bunch of the minnows, I only added 3 to the tank with the loaches. The rest I put safely in a tank with guppies. For 2 hours everything was fine, altho there was a bit of chasing going on, nothing major, and it was mostly the loaches chasing one another. I'm not sure what triggered it but at about the 2hr 15 min mark the loaches started chasing the minnows like crazy. Unfortunately they got 1. As soon as I saw this I moved the other 2 in with the rest of the group and the guppies.

So it was definitely the blue red tail botia loaches that killed off the group of 24 that "disappeared". I suspect the group of 24 lasted as long as they did (seemingly comfortable and safe when I closed) simply because of the large quantity of them. Once numbers are reduced there's no way for a single fish to hide.

One other thing I figured out is how a fish with such a tiny mouth could eat something as large as the minnows, comparatively. It was literally a feeding frenzy akin to piranha. Lots of tiny mouths picking at a single prey item, they completely devoured it.

However I still have absolutely no idea why they would go after the minnows and leave the danios alone. Or for that matter how they could have eaten so many in 12 hours and not show any sign of having that large of a meal.

So from now on, no more loaches. Well at least not this particular species. It's too much of an accident waiting to happen.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

The danios are pretty quick. Could have been the reason. Well, at least u can advise from now on customers who are buying the loaches to be careful with minnows. Lesson learned. Great to intervene quickly.


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## Erichenderson02 (Aug 21, 2013)

Looks like this mystery

( •_•)>⌐■-■

(⌐■_■)

is history. 

yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh

Seriously though, awesome thread.

I was on the edge of my seat for days :icon_cool


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## HSA1255 (Apr 2, 2013)

I remembered this thread and wanted to find out what happened. I'm glad you figured it out. Loaches are awesome, they can hang with much larger and aggressive fish in tanks and hold their own and they are fun to watch. At least now you will know more about the best placement for them and perhaps it was their numbers or minnows' behavior.... they seem to act much more skittish than danios, so that may have doomed them. I have heard some behavior is learned with fish, that one species can display different types of aggression/behavior based on experience. The loaches worked together and I'm sure any new ones quickly caught on to the hunting behavior. In smaller groups in established tanks there may not be that kind of situation so it's never an issue. I would say that maybe more artificial plants and places to hide would be good, I get that they are for sale and you want them to be seen... perhaps showing off some of the rocks or tank decorations in tanks with the skittish species would offer you an upselling opportunity and give those fish a little more security. They'd still be seen, but would likely feel better and act better and may not become a midnight snack. Not sure anything could have stopped your pack of loaches in this instance, but maybe for future tank mates more decoration/plants would help? I really enjoyed reading about the loaches and am glad you kept up with the posts and let us know what was happening.


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

This was a fantastic thread. It made for some great reading. I think some of the posters let their emotions run a bit too far, and while I'm sure that no one wants or enjoys the death of livestock, sometimes the only way to be sure a situation is trial and error. To suggest the OP had any other motive than the well being of livestock would be ludicrous.

Anyway, good to know that Botia can actually be very predatory, given their mouth shapes it seems a little contradictory but when one takes into context their very social group structure, it appears likely that they prefer larger groups for more than the safety in numbers and general companionship.


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## jtilley (Mar 18, 2013)

Why don't you just check the filter for the corpses or cover the intake with something fine for the night and see if it solves it. I've have perfectly healthy danios get sucked up filters because they like to hang around the current and were small. They swam through the cover the filter came with.


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## Cynical Fish Guy (Feb 19, 2012)

OCTOPUS in a tank accross the way is escaping and eating them--My guess!


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