# 120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 35% less water volume!



## burr740

So this is a journal for my new 120, which replaces my long running 75 gallon. For anyone who followed the previous tank, this one will be basically the same style with just a bigger footprint.

First planting, about 2 months ago. 











*Tank*

48" x 24" x 24" Marineland 120 gal


*CO2*

GLA Grow 1 regulator, 10 lb tank. 

DIY PVC reactor. Main pipe is 3" x 24"










CO2 cuts on 90 min before the lights, goes off 1 hour before. PH drops 1.1 by lights on, proceeds on down 1.3-1.4 at peak. Livestock are fine at this level, heavy flow and good surface agitation helps.


*Filtration*

Two canisters: 1 Aquatop CF 500, and 1 Hydor Pro 600

Measured flow combined is about 600 gph. 

1 Koralia Nano 425 for added circulation

Both canisters have SunSun intakes with the skimmer

Left corner is the the Aquatop. Using a 1" outflow pipe to reduce velocity (the in-tank flow is crazy!)










Right corner is the Hydor. The CO2 runs inline with this one.



















^also you can see my LED night lights, mounted on each end of the main fixture.

*Substrate:*

Black Diamond blasting sand


*Lighting*

6 bulb T5HO hydroponic unit

https://www.amazon.com/Agrobrite-Designer-FLP46-6-Tube-Fixture/dp/B002TJQ61W










Bulbs are front to back:

TrueLumen Flora
Agrobrite 6400K
Zoo-med Flora
Plantmax 3000K
ATI Purple
TrueLumen Flora

Fixture is 9" above the tank, PAR at the sub is around 120. Having lots of red bulbs help keep it down, not to mention awesome color rendition. PAR would be a lot higher at this distance with more 6500Ks, for example


*Ferts*

Macros 3x week
7.5 ppm KNO3
1.3 ppm K2PO4
3 ppm K2SO4 (for 6-7 total K)

Micros 3x week
.015 Fe from csmb
.02 ppm Fe dtpa

** Micros are more now because Im rolling my own instead of using csmb. Will update the amounts once I arrive at the sweet spot.

50%-60% water change every 6-7 days

*Livestock*

25 Harlequin Rasboras, will soon get this up to maybe 30 or so
6-7 otos
Trio of young German Blue Rams, just coming into their adult colors
10-12 Amano shrimp


Here's the latest rendition. Plant groups are no way shaped for height or footprints. Mainly just tentative placeholders of where things are going to be. Have lots of ideas to try, and open to any suggestions! 











Detailed plant pics to follow....


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## burr740

Left side











Right side











Rotala Sunset. Currently in a rebuilding phase. This is 3 main stems, tallest one is about 16". Probably next WC will cut them apart and make a nice group

Staurogyne 'purple' on the right, Pogosteman erectus in back










Ammania sp bonsai. Will expand this group pretty soon, have a lot more growing out in the 50











AR mini 'variegated', Downoi, Lagenandra meeeboldi 'red round', Erio vietnam, Proserpinaca palustris (mermaid weed)











Left to right: Isoetes lacustris, Rotala macaranda 'variegated', Oldenlandia salzmannii, Acmella repens











Trying to figure out a way to snake the Ludwigia red more front to back, and keep it low. Right now is just a sideways cluster.

Willow moss sp gigantea on the smaller log, Pogosteman kimberly in back middle, Floscopa scandens to the left










Changed the original Buces on the log. The other ones were smaller leaved greens and they werent doing so well. May need more traces, idk. Reason I liked them is because they bloomed profusely in the 75. Digging the red stems on these though, and the leaves I think are a better contrast. Gonna give them a month or two and see how it goes










FTS










Other thoughts: Reduce the Staurogyne repens and shape it up differently. Currently just a big oval with no personality. Same goes for the Monte carlo in front of the log. 

Bring the Stauro purple on down to the left in a bigger group


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## Opare

Yes!!!!!! Been waiting for this and it does not dissapoint. Tanks looks awesome, even if you say this is just the plants tentative placement. I'm hyped if you can't tell.


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## SingAlongWithTsing

The colors of your plants never ceases to amaze me 

How high did you hang your lights and how high is the substrate in your tank btw? Are you still getting over 100 par at the substrate?


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## GMYukonon24s

You have a beautiful tank as always. Thanks for the details of the setup, what plant is what, and what your plans are.


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## quiquik

Hey burr did you place osmocote root tabs under the substrate? I'm assuming you did.


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## Freemananana

It is beautiful. Totally not my thing at all though. The colors are crazy impressive. How do you like the 120? I've always debated getting one because I had a 4' section of wall to work with. But I've also been told, extensively, that a 6' tank is where it is at.


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## shhh

Gorgeous tank as always! When I look at your tank journals I'm often tempted to transition a low tech tank to hi tech and run CO2, but then I remember I'm lazy and I don't want to trim stems. So I'll just enjoy your pictures instead of my own Dutch tank.


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## Econde

Very nice tank. The colors are amazing.


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## Greggz

Well Burr740, looks like you have proven that you CAN'T get too much of a good thing. 

Beautiful transition to the 120G. Looking forward to many more updates. I know you've got plans, but I find it hard to see how it gets much better than this. Bravo!!


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## burr740

Thanks guys



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> The colors of your plants never ceases to amaze me
> 
> How high did you hang your lights and how high is the substrate in your tank btw? Are you still getting over 100 par at the substrate?


Yeah I forgot to add this in the OP. It's 9" above the tank. PAR at the sub is about 120. It would be a lot higher if not for all the red bulbs. 

I made a bracket out of 1x8s, painted them black. It just sits on the tank. The width worked out just right, easy to slide back and forth.

Not the sexiest thing in the world, but it works!












quiquik said:


> Hey burr did you place osmocote root tabs under the substrate? I'm assuming you did.


Not this time, but Ive added a few to certain things. 

The Lagenandra has about 6 individual balls. It did better in the 75 when I gave it some. The AR mini has a couple balls under each plant. Again this is individual balls, not "tabs" full

Probably stick a few under the stauro purple when it's location is finalized.


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## burr740

Freemananana said:


> It is beautiful. Totally not my thing at all though. The colors are crazy impressive. How do you like the 120? I've always debated getting one because I had a 4' section of wall to work with. But I've also been told, extensively, that a 6' tank is where it is at.


Thanks.

4' is all the space I have too, or I would definitely have gone with a 5-6 footer. 

Im loving these dimensions honestly, coming from a standard 75. The 24" depth front to back is really nice. The height is more than necessary but Im using it to advantage. The empty space up top makes it easy to blast flow without disrupting things too much. 

Like if you stir a pot of soup from the top, the bottom starts swirling as well.


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## Dman911

Burr this tank is absolutely stunning!!! I'm at a loss for words

Dan


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## sdwindansea

Beautiful tank and fantastic work! Thanks for posting those and killing off any self-esteem I had remaining . What are those clear, suction-cup looking things on the Buces?


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## Axelrodi202

What substrate are you using?


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## burr740

sdwindansea said:


> Beautiful tank and fantastic work! Thanks for posting those and killing off any self-esteem I had remaining . What are those clear, suction-cup looking things on the Buces?


Thanks. 

Those are plastic/metal push pins like you use on a bulletin board or whatever. In a month or two the Buces will be stuck and I'll take them out



Axelrodi202 said:


> What substrate are you using?


Something else I forgot to include in the OP  Black Diamond blasting sand.


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## sdwindansea

burr740 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Those are plastic/metal push pins like you use on a bulletin board or whatever. In a month or two the Buces will be stuck and I'll take them out


That is a great idea and I'm sure it is so much easier than tying knots under water. I'm assuming they are just the standard ones and nothing specific to aquariums. No problems with them fouling the water?


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## burr740

sdwindansea said:


> That is a great idea and I'm sure it is so much easier than tying knots under water. I'm assuming they are just the standard ones and nothing specific to aquariums. No problems with them fouling the water?


Yep, just your basic little push pins. 

The metal part will eventually rust after a few months but I dont think it's much of a problem. Used them many times before.


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## APynckel

subbing


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## Freemananana

burr740 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 4' is all the space I have too, or I would definitely have gone with a 5-6 footer.
> 
> Im loving these dimensions honestly, coming from a standard 75. The 24" depth front to back is really nice. The height is more than necessary but Im using it to advantage. The empty space up top makes it easy to blast flow without disrupting things too much.
> 
> Like if you stir a pot of soup from the top, the bottom starts swirling as well.




Neat! Well, it would seem the dimension suggestion I've been receiving stays true. 


I had a 75g previously and it was excellent depth for me. It is hard for me to comprehend an extra 6". It has to be great for planting something in a 'dutch' style. I have never had an empty space up top, I'm quite the advocate of floating plants. 


I get the analogy though. Never really thought about it but it makes sense now. I've wondered how people get away with so much rated flow when I struggle with a single powerhead in my tank!


The reds of your plants are just amazing. It's insane to me! Incredibly beautiful tank. The growth was very subtle until I really looked at your carpet plants.


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## sohankpatel

How are you keeping the AR variegated so good looking? Mine Is tiny and stunted, leaves are 2 cm long and the entire plant is maybe 3 or 4 cm tall. It has been months, and it is directly under the light.


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## elusive77

Very nice! You always get such amazing colors in your plants. It gives me something to aspire to.


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## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> How are you keeping the AR variegated so good looking? Mine Is tiny and stunted, leaves are 2 cm long and the entire plant is maybe 3 or 4 cm tall. It has been months, and it is directly under the light.


These look like crap honestly. Ideally the leaves are perfectly flat, no wavy margins. I tend to sell my good stuff and keep scraps to start over with. What you see above is the scraps.

Here's some better specimens, not perfect, but better - 











As for why yours are doing bad, idk. ARs in general dont like high micros, wavy leaf edges is a classic symptom. Could be 100 other things too though. CO2 being a usual suspect




elusive77 said:


> Very nice! You always get such amazing colors in your plants. It gives me something to aspire to.


Thanks!

Color has a lot to do with T5s and bulb selection. It's hard to get a pop like this with LEDs, at least without dropping a small fortune.


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## Riza1990

Gorgeous tank, just like the last one! I don't envy you having to trim and scape on a tank that tall and wide though. My back hurts just thinking about it! Although 24 inches front to back must be super fun to play with. You make it seem effortless, kudos for that feat. 

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## LRJ

'bout time...:icon_wink

Looking spectacular though! Killer plant health and colors as usual. Big improvement in the contrasts and distinction of groupings between initial planting and the current iteration. 

Harlequin Rasboras were an excellent choice imo for the style of keeping the plants trimmed low with no back wall plantings. The Rasboras will inhabit the upper third and pop nicely against the bare black background, bringing visual interest to the unplanted area of the tank. Well thought out.


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## Greggz

Hey Burr740, I just showed your new pics to my wife.

She was in awe. I told her how you spent 3 hours trimming it last week. 

The good thing is she thinks I am a little less nuts now.

Thanks!:grin2:

And by the way, just as stunning the second time through.


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## Immortal1

Absolutely amazing the color that you can get in your tanks. One of these days you will have to make a 1-2 minute video. Then the rest of us can watch your version of fish TV.


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## fablau

Glad to watch your new tank here Burr. May I ask you to post your GH and KH values? I am always amazed to see so much rich color with that low traces... Amazing indeed. Keep it up, I will be following you here!


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## OreoP

True combination of science and art!! Stunning colors and healthy plants...now only if I had your magic touch!. Looking forward to your journey


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## burr740

Thanks guys



fablau said:


> Glad to watch your new tank here Burr. May I ask you to post your GH and KH values? I am always amazed to see so much rich color with that low traces... Amazing indeed. Keep it up, I will be following you here!


I use all tap water. KH is ~5.5, GH is 50 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg, then I add another 10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water change


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## pennfisherman

Do you use any sort of root tabs? The black blaster sand is inert right?

Do your plants get all the ferts they need from the dry ferts? 

Thanks
Matt


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## klibs

0/10. sucks


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## Nlewis

Burr making everyone look bad again, lol.


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## fablau

burr740 said:


> Thanks guys
> 
> 
> I use all tap water. KH is ~5.5, GH is 50 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg, then I add another 10 ppm Mg via Epsom salt at water change




Thanks for the info Burr, just curious, how do you know you have 4ppm Mg? Water report?


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## burr740

fablau said:


> Thanks for the info Burr, just curious, how do you know you have 4ppm Mg? Water report?


 @PortalMasterRy tested my tap with his fancy Hanna rig

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...t-testing-service-using-hanna-hi-83200-a.html


But my water report was pretty spot on, said the same thing


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## cininohio

Just gorgeous!


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## OreoP

Just curious...How effective is the CO2 reactor? Do you get any micro bubbles in the tank?

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## burr740

If the cut off valve is wide open there's some mist coming out, not a lot but some.

Closing the valve just a little eliminates it due to the increase in pressure it creates. Apparently it takes very little pressure to squeeze out a micro bubble.


Oh yeah somebody asked if I put bio ball inside this one. No it's completely empty. in retrospect I probably would have, because they made a difference in some of the other ones I built for the 75.


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## OreoP

Good to know. I have a similar situation with the Cerges. The back pressure does help.

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## ilovekillis0852

Burr very beautiful tank. I never understood how can one make the red plant pop, ive keep red species plant and all i could turn them rust red but not bright red. Any secret hiding there?


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## burr740

pennfisherman said:


> Do you use any sort of root tabs? The black blaster sand is inert right?
> 
> Do your plants get all the ferts they need from the dry ferts?
> 
> Thanks
> Matt


Blasting sand is inert, yes. 

Ive put a few individual Osmocote+ balls around a couple of things, but 95% of the tank has nothing.

Most plants can do just fine with only water column dosing.



ilovekillis0852 said:


> Burr very beautiful tank. I never understood how can one make the red plant pop, ive keep red species plant and all i could turn them rust red but not bright red. Any secret hiding there?


No secret. Healthy plants is the first thing. Then you need a light with a good amount of red.


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## ibebian

burr740 said:


> Blasting sand is inert, yes.
> 
> Ive put a few individual Osmocote+ balls around a couple of things, but 95% of the tank has nothing.
> 
> Most plants can do just fine with only water column dosing.
> 
> 
> 
> No secret. Healthy plants is the first thing. Then you need a light with a good amount of red.




Beautiful! Burr, what are some red plants that are good for foreground, either short/compact or can be trained that way? I had a hugely successful Pogo erectus behind AR mini which I think choked it out and outcompeted it. I've since pulled erectus out and dropped osmocote capsules but the AR mini cannot seem to recover. I'm thinking I need to replace it entirely..


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## Tanks!

So exciting! Subscribed!


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## Greggz

Burr740 could you describe a little more what you mean when you talk about the tank uber clean. I am seeing positive effects in my tank adopting this practice, and wonder what all it means to you?

For instance, I also have BDBS substrate, and I'd be interested to know more about your vacuuming routine. Lightly vac, deeply vac? And anything else you think might be helpful.

Thanks for anything you can share.


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 could you describe a little more what you mean when you talk about the tank uber clean. I am seeing positive effects in my tank adopting this practice, and wonder what all it means to you?
> 
> For instance, I also have BDBS substrate, and I'd be interested to know more about your vacuuming routine. Lightly vac, deeply vac? And anything else you think might be helpful.
> 
> Thanks for anything you can share.


Keep things very clean is all that means.

- Filters obviously. Mine will run a good 4 months before flow starts to decrease. But I try to clean them every two months.

- The substrate surface. Mine stays pretty clean by itself and I rarely do anything. But anytime there's a build up of crud somewhere I use a bucket and siphon hose to spot vacuum it up.

Now, unlike your rainbows, all my fish are small and I really dont feed that much. So fish poop isnt really a factor, at least I never see any. Not sure how that would be with a fish load like yours, or how I'd deal with it. In my case, having good flow through the tank and strong filters seems to do the heavy lifting.

As for deep vacuuming, plants in my tanks get moved all the time, so there's a pretty good "turnover" happening from pulling roots out. I really never do any deep vacuums until the tank gets a little older, after a year or two. Then I may do small areas at a time, like if I pull a group of stems out to trim and top, or move or whatever, I'll do a deep vac on that one area.

- Pruning and plant trimming, often overlooked as part of the cleaning process. Dead or dying leaves, get those out asap. They wont repair, they'll just sit there and leech organics back into the water. 

Any stems with ratty bottoms, replant the nice tops and toss the bottoms.


Just keep all the crappy stuff out. That's it in a nutshell.


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## burr740

ibebian said:


> Beautiful! Burr, what are some red plants that are good for foreground, either short/compact or can be trained that way? I had a hugely successful Pogo erectus behind AR mini which I think choked it out and outcompeted it. I've since pulled erectus out and dropped osmocote capsules but the AR mini cannot seem to recover. I'm thinking I need to replace it entirely..


AR varieties obviously. There's some red/pink crypts out there, not sure on the names. Lagenandra meeboldi 'red round'. Under high light Blyxa japonica turns shades of yellow/pink and even red, can be a nice in between contrast. Hygrophila araguaia is a good one. I may try this in place of the Monte carlo. Not a red but Staurogyne sp 'purple' is a really cool plant I think. 

Also Ludwigia sp red is totally doable as a mid ground plant. (aka super red mini) You can let it grow out initially, get rooted well, then mow it down to the bone, leaving 1"-2" stumps. It'll come back out with several side stems from each stump creating a dense low bush.

If you look at some of Tom Barr's recent renditions, he does this really well, also. Pikez journal on Barr report. 

I'll be trying that more here soon as I figure out a good way to have it going

Sux about the pogo erectus. That's a great contrast behind AR


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## Phantomic

Your threads are always an amazing resource for researching bulb combo's. With this tank you really did an incredible job with the combination.

I've been running a 4 bulb T5 combo with a UVL Red Sun, ATI Purple Plus, Giesemann Aquaflora, ATI Aquablue Special, but need to replace them soon. UVL Red Sun's are just about impossible to find nowadays, any recommendations for something similar?


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## vilenarios

Wow, looking beautiful already! Cant wait to see it all grow. How were you planning on containing those baby tears? Im 100% stealing your push pin idea! I've noticed the same thing with small/krinkly AR leaves with high traces. I consider that my go to plant for signs of trace toxicity.

Seeing this makes me want to get rid of all my plants and start fresh... however I'm in the middle of another project of converting my old planted fluval edge 12g to a reef.


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## FengShui

Burr... awesome. I just read your 75 gallon journey over the last few days. I'll be following this one too. Truly an inspiration. I'm confused about one thing though.

For your Dosing, how do you use the calculator (Zorfox downloadable) to figure out how much to use. The part that confuses me is the "calculating for" part. What do you calculate for KNO3 and KH2PO4. I assume K2SO4 is calculated for K.

The defaults are:

KNO3 - NO3
KH2PO4 - PO4

It might sound like a silly question, but I just want to fully understand.

Seeing your colors pop with that T5 fixture for the price makes me cringe to know I bought 2 Current Planted + for my 75, with far less PAR for when I finally go CO2.

As always, looking good. Keep it up. Your efforts are appreciated. 

Also, one thing that nagged me as I was reading through the issues you were having on the 75 with the micros/Fe... Using the "Nutrient Acclimation" graph in the Zorfox calculator, after adjusting dosing levels it seems it could take 45-60 days for the levels to reach the highest peak. I guess you've mostly solved the problem for now with the P causing precipitation, but I was curious to your thoughts about this.


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## burr740

Phantomic said:


> Your threads are always an amazing resource for researching bulb combo's. With this tank you really did an incredible job with the combination.
> 
> I've been running a 4 bulb T5 combo with a UVL Red Sun, ATI Purple Plus, Giesemann Aquaflora, ATI Aquablue Special, but need to replace them soon. UVL Red Sun's are just about impossible to find nowadays, any recommendations for something similar?


Thanks. I wish more people around here used T5s and liked to talk bulbs.

Far as I know there's nothing out there like the red sun. These 3000Ks are "red", but to the eyes a harsh yellow. Gotta have some cools along with it. 

The combo you're running now sounds pretty awesome!



vilenarios said:


> Wow, looking beautiful already! Cant wait to see it all grow. How were you planning on containing those baby tears?


It's Monte Carlo but works the same as HC. Will need to keep the borders cut back and lined out every couple of weeks. Mow it to the bone every month or two.

Usually before the mowing phase I just take it out and start over. Easier that way




FengShui said:


> Burr... awesome. I just read your 75 gallon journey over the last few days. I'll be following this one too. Truly an inspiration. I'm confused about one thing though.
> 
> For your Dosing, how do you use the calculator (Zorfox downloadable) to figure out how much to use. The part that confuses me is the "calculating for" part. What do you calculate for KNO3 and KH2PO4. I assume K2SO4 is calculated for K.
> 
> The defaults are:
> 
> KNO3 - NO3
> KH2PO4 - PO4
> 
> It might sound like a silly question, but I just want to fully understand.
> 
> Seeing your colors pop with that T5 fixture for the price makes me cringe to know I bought 2 Current Planted + for my 75, with far less PAR for when I finally go CO2.
> 
> As always, looking good. Keep it up. Your efforts are appreciated.
> 
> Also, one thing that nagged me as I was reading through the issues you were having on the 75 with the micros/Fe... Using the "Nutrient Acclimation" graph in the Zorfox calculator, after adjusting dosing levels it seems it could take 45-60 days for the levels to reach the highest peak. I guess you've mostly solved the problem for now with the P causing precipitation, but I was curious to your thoughts about this.


The "calculating for" defaults to the main ingredient in whatever compound you select. Once you calculate, it shows the ppm of everything that's in the compound. There's no need to do anything in this field unless you want to calculate for a secondary ingredient. Like dosing KNO3 for K, or a micro nutrient in csmb other than fe.

"Dosing method" defaults to EI, and will give results according to EI ppms. You can change it to "Custom" if you want to hit a specific ppm. Enter whatever ppm you want in the "concentration" field.


Here's a good online calculator, they all work about the same

Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator


As for the last part, you may be onto something but Ive never used the accumulation charts much. Lowering P definitely helped a few nagging issues.


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## Bananableps

With plants like that, who needs fish?


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## burr740

Couple of trims, made a few changes














- Replaced the Monte Carlo with Hygrophila araguaia

- Opacua verde sword in place of the Moss log. The giant willow moss had gotten about 4" thick and needed a trim. Scalped it to the bone and put it in the 10 gal with the shrimp and lower light to recover for a bit. 

The Opacus grew flat and sideways in the 75. Think it's the bright light. Gonna see how this one looks after fattening up for a few weeks. But I really like the moss log, it'll probably come back.












Havent figured out a good way to stack the Floscopa. Need to be looking down on it to show it's full effect. From the side it loses a lot of impact. May put the Acmella there instead

Trimmed the Lud red about half way down last week. It'll be ready for another good whacking at nect week's WC. the plan is to keep it a lot lower than it is now.













There's about a 3" space between the L red and the Bonsai. The overhang of the red has forming a tunnel, also creating the shadow.













Rotala macaranda variegated is doing pretty well. About 1 out of every 6-7 tops stunts and withers. That's better than a couple months ago when it was 50/50.

Havent changed ferts much. Mostly just keep cutting out the bad and replanting the good. Trying to focus on better maintenance and pruning, keeping the overall bio-moss in check, trying to keep space between groups, all that sort of thing which good CO2 and flow depend on.


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## burr740




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## bcarl_10gal

Looking great Burr! Picking up right were you left off.


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## Greggz

@burr740, how long does it take prepare the tank for these photo shoots? 

I mean, I'm sure the tank looks great everyday, but I imagine the attention to detail to take those photos requires some work. The way each group is perfectly tapered and spaced doesn't happen by accident. 

And no matter how many times I see your tank, I marvel at it every time.

Planning the 180G yet??:grin2::grin2:


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## markf

@burr740 your tank is amazing! Planning a 40 breeder and considering T5. Do you have any opinion on the Sunblaster Nanotech T5 High Output Fixture? Was considering them for lighting and maybe changing bulbs. Would 2 or 3 be enough for med. - high light?


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## ibebian

*120 Gal - Dutchy Freestyle*

@burr740 thanks for the pointers on red plants. I am trying tissue cultured L. repens "super red" as a super low almost foreground, will see how that ends up working out. 

Noob question here but are T5 supposed to be more temperature complete compared to LED? Is that why from a photosynthesis standpoint they tend to be superior? Perhaps pure PAR output? I see there are various color temps for T5 as well, so I'm wondering what benefits there are, or if it's mainly preference.


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## burr740

Thanks guys



Greggz said:


> @*burr740*, how long does it take prepare the tank for these photo shoots?
> 
> I mean, I'm sure the tank looks great everyday, but I imagine the attention to detail to take those photos requires some work. The way each group is perfectly tapered and spaced doesn't happen by accident.
> 
> And no matter how many times I see your tank, I marvel at it every time.
> 
> Planning the 180G yet??:grin2::grin2:


Thanks man. Calling it photo shoots is funny. I have a cheap point and shoot that I barely know how to use. The most I ever do in preparation is wipe off the glass if it needs it. 

But you are absolutely right, the shape of each group doesnt happen by accident. But it's more routine maintenance than prepping for a pic.

I do a little pruning most every day or two. Get in there with my hands for 5-10 minutes and pinch off ratty leaves, wayward sprouts, unwanted side shoots, that sort of thing. To me it's relaxing, a meditative activity. I enjoy doing it so it's not like a chore. 

Then, on water change days there's always a few groups due for a major trim. Might be only one or two groups, or several.

Some things do better replanting the nice tops, some things do better mowed down. Whatever the case, you try to shape the group however you want it to grow out. So until its time to trim again, the group maintains the same basic shape, or at least heads in the direction you want.




markf said:


> @*burr740* your tank is amazing! Planning a 40 breeder and considering T5. Do you have any opinion on the Sunblaster Nanotech T5 High Output Fixture? Was considering them for lighting and maybe changing bulbs. Would 2 or 3 be enough for med. - high light?


Never had a Sunblaster but from what I know they are really good lights.

The main drawback is the reflector doesnt come down low enough to fully encapsulate the bulb, so you get a lot of light spillage, and viewing the tank from eye level can be unpleasant. So that might be something to think about, unless they're going in a canopy. 

Two should be plenty of light, maybe 6"-8" apart to even out the coverage. Three would offer better coverage and more bulb options, but you'll need to raise them up a lot or it'll be way too much, like a foot or probably more above the tank. 

With two bulbs can probably get by with...less than a foot. Just guessing 



ibebian said:


> @*burr740* thanks for the pointers on red plants. I am trying tissue cultured L. repens "super red" as a super low almost foreground, will see how that ends up working out.
> 
> Noob question here but are T5 supposed to be more temperature complete compared to LED? Is that why from a photosynthesis standpoint they tend to be superior? Perhaps pure PAR output? I see there are various color temps for T5 as well, so I'm wondering what benefits there are, or if it's mainly preference.


I really dont know enough about it to understand or explain the difference. Though "temperature complete" sounds like an appropriate term.

The problem with most LEDs is they dont have enough reds, or the right kind of reds. Unless you build your own custom job, or spend a helluva lot of money on the more advanced units (which Im not very familiar with) 

One of the lighting gurus around here Im sure could explain it better


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Thanks man. Calling it photo shoots is funny. I have a cheap point and shoot that I barely know how to use. The most I ever do in preparation is wipe off the glass if it needs it.
> 
> But you are absolutely right, the shape of each group doesnt happen by accident. But it's more routine maintenance than prepping for a pic.
> 
> I do a little pruning most every day or two. Get in there with my hands for 5-10 minutes and pinch off ratty leaves, wayward sprouts, unwanted side shoots, that sort of thing. To me it's relaxing, a meditative activity. I enjoy doing it so it's not like a chore.
> 
> Then, on water change days there's always a few groups due for a major trim. Might be only one or two groups, or several.
> 
> Some things do better replanting the nice tops, some things do better mowed down. Whatever the case, you try to shape the group however you want it to grow out. So until its time to trim again, the group maintains the same basic shape, or at least heads in the direction you want.


Burr740 I appreciate the response. I think this illustrates that like many things in life, the end result is often proportionate to the effort put in. 

You probably spend more time tending to your underwater garden than most, and it shows.

And I agree with you, I also find the time spent on the tank a form of meditation and enjoyable. Good for the soul if you will. 

And by the way, the Nelsonia is a prolific grower. If left to its own devices, it could fill my whole tank in no time. Great plant for me, so thanks again.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 I appreciate the response. I think this illustrates that like many things in life, the end result is often proportionate to the effort put in.
> 
> You probably spend more time tending to your underwater garden than most, and it shows.
> 
> And I agree with you, I also find the time spent on the tank a form of meditation and enjoyable. Good for the soul if you will.
> 
> And by the way, the Nelsonia is a prolific grower. If left to its own devices, it could fill my whole tank in no time. Great plant for me, so thanks again.


It's a stunning plant, but those side stems make it a real pita for what I'd like to do with it. I may try to work it in somewhere at some point, though. 

It's such a unique leaf 










:icon_eek:


----------



## PEdwards

Burr,

Thanks for helping me realize I was making a rookie mistake by not having a valve on the outlet side of the reactor. That's been rectified now and will hopefully make a significant positive change.


----------



## Tanks!

Burr: How does one propagate AR?


----------



## klibs

Tanks! said:


> Burr: How does one propagate AR?


same as you would any other stem plant, trim tops off and replant

my AR will also fork near the base of the plant and form multiple plants if I let it grow long enough


----------



## TFC

I am blown away. You have the most beautiful tank. I noticed you were talking about red or pink crypts. Dennerle has a new pink crypt , Flamingo. https://www.amazon.com/Dennerle-Pla...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=FG8Y8JMQ8DEGEXNHMHKA
Good luck


----------



## BettaBettas

is that giant hairgrass or some type of vallisneria? very pretty plant! (plants)


----------



## burr740

Added 7 more Rasboras and 6 Amano shrimp. 

Tried a few Amanos in the 75 a couple years ago with no luck. Dont think they liked the CO2. Now things like flow and O2 are much better so Im hoping they'll be happy. Early indications are promising.











Replaced the Erios with Hygro 'kompact', better look I think. Will bring the araguaia on over in front as it grows out. Wont take long 

ARs are growing nicely, algae free but still not very flat.










@Greggz this fts is for you. Much of the left side has just been hacked and sold, right side is a jumbled mess of indecision. 










From the side, what's left of the Sunset, Stauro purple, and P erectus. It'll grow back. Also mowed the Ludwigia red down pretty good.










Ditched the Floscopa in favor of the Acmella, gonna try this look for a while. The cool green is a nice contrast to the bright P erectus. Just gotta figure out the best way to have them both running. 











Might've noticed the H pinnatifida in the back right, Ive been trying to figure out a way to work that plant in. It's such a nice leaf. 

Got the idea to attach it to a skinny piece of wood, which elevates it, and also allows it to be pulled out easy to trim off the wild bottom side shoots (weekly chore). Then just stick it back in the ground and you never see the wood. Not sure this will be a long term thing or not.











Bought 6 more Pantanal from a guy on facebook. We'll see how long it takes me to kill these. They arrived looking like hell, terrible shape. It's been about 6 days and they are coming out nice though...but so did the last ones I tried. We'll see what happens..










^ can see a couple sprigs of what I think is Polygonum 'pink' but Im not entirely sure. Guy threw them in and didnt know what they were either. Doubt I use it in this scape unless it turns into some sort of stunner. For now it's just growing out while I figure out what to do in the corner.

Need to come up with a nice green plant to use in the corner that contrasts with Oldenlandia (which desparately needs a trim btw). I like having greens in the far corners because it expands the tank from a visual perspective. Darker colors or reds tend to shrink it down


Ferts; I ran out of K2SO4. Thought I had another bag but turned out to be P. So now we have a 5 week experiment going without it, unless a deficiency pops up then I'll get some more. 

I wonder if 6 ppm KNO3 and .75 KH2PO4 will provide enough, something like 4ppm 3x week



BettaBettas said:


> is that giant hairgrass or some type of vallisneria? very pretty plant! (plants)


Isoetes lacustris. Very stiff plant that can take some current without bending over, unlike Vals or grassy types.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Greggz this fts is for you. Much of the left side has just been hacked and sold, right side is a jumbled mess of indecision.


Thanks Burr740....... I appreciate you torturing me with your FTS. My tank is always a jumbled mess of indecision. But in all seriousness, the tank is really looking just great! 

I was wondering, has going to the 120G enhanced your enjoyment of the tank? Has it brought any new challenges? I was wondering about the increased depth and how that might have an effect? Or is it just business as usual?


----------



## fablau

Thanks for the update Burr, great tank as always! I am curious to know more about your experience with Pantanal: what kind of problems did you have with it?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Thanks Burr740....... I appreciate you torturing me with your FTS. My tank is always a jumbled mess of indecision. But in all seriousness, the tank is really looking just great!
> 
> I was wondering, has going to the 120G enhanced your enjoyment of the tank? Has is brought any new challenges? I was wondering about the increased depth and how that might have an effect? Or is it just business as usual?


Dude stop talking nonsense. Your tank looks as good as anyone's, different styles is all. 

Im definitely enjoying the 120 more. The extra front to back depth is really nice. 

I didnt expect to like the added height very much, but Ive come to really appreciate it. Plants can grow taller and still have empty space up top. Makes it easy to blast a lot of flow across the tank, which hits the opposite walls and cascades downward and back across the bottom areas. Couldnt do that in the shorter 75, at least without keeping things extremely low. 

At first trying to reach the bottom back seemed inconvenient as hell. Im about 5' 11" with fairly long arms, and still need tweezers to touch bottom back there. Now that Ive gotten used to it though, it just seems normal. 



fablau said:


> Thanks for the update Burr, great tank as always! I am curious to know more about your experience with Pantanal: what kind of problems did you have with it?


Two different times it'd grow well for a while, few weeks, then wither and die, for no apparent reason.

I just keep working on things like good co2 and flow, keeping biomass in check, space between groups, clean conditions, all the usual stuff - and hope for the best.


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> I didnt expect to like the added height very much, but Ive come to really appreciate it. Plants can grow taller and still have empty space up top. Makes it easy to blast a lot of flow across the tank, which hits the opposite walls and cascades downward and back across the bottom areas. Couldnt do that in the shorter 75, at least without keeping things extremely low.


I'm finding the same thing in my tank. As much as I love the rimless open top, I think it's a bit too shallow for what I want to be doing with it. I've got this horrible feeling I'm going to have to sell the wood someday, or at least cut way back on the number of pieces.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> I'm finding the same thing in my tank. As much as I love the rimless open top, I think it's a bit too shallow for what I want to be doing with it. I've got this horrible feeling I'm going to have to sell the wood someday, or at least cut way back on the number of pieces.


Well you know, there's a lot of different ways to arrange the flow pattern. This is just the best way that I could come up with, based on the tank dimensions and the general shape of the plant layout.

The output in the back left corner is pointing to the right, aimed slightly at the surface. At the front right, 2 Koralia nanos are up high, pointing straight across to the left. 

The back right is where co2 comes in from the Hydor canister. It's pointed down about a 45 degree angle, aimed more or less at the bottom in front of where the H araguaia is. 

So the new co2 water is blasted down to the lower depths first, and circulated around from there. Initially I had this output aimed straight across and slightly upwards, but I think this way is better.

Not every tank needs this much flow or to be so particular about it. The high light + lots of hungry stems, across a wide boy of water..... things are a tad more critical.


----------



## PEdwards

Burr,

In the past, the shallowest tank 55 gal or more that I've kept has been the 55. The 75, 90, 225, and 300 were all 18" tall or greater so I was able to push more water through the tank with a water column that's taller, relative to the hardscape. Those extra inches at the top can make a big difference I've found. With only about 14" effective water column in the current tank it's been difficult to get good flow throughout the whole thing, even pushing 8-9x volume through a 1" outlet. Hopefully the wood re-arrangement yesterday and addition of a small powerhead pushing along the back wall will improve things enough to get good distribution throughout.


----------



## DMtankd

Burr,

Curious: have you ever tested the parameters in tank to see what the results of your dosing are?


----------



## PEdwards

It's been almost two weeks. Where are the pics?


----------



## burr740

Buce flowering











Amano shrimp eating algae off the powerhead.....living dangerously 











Lost a few Sunsets to the dreaded 'droop and die' syndrome. Only had about 6 and 3 died. No idea what causes it.

First year or so with this plant it never happened once. Last few months its been a regular occurrence.

Stem on the left, if that ever starts might as well toss the whole plant because it's history.











Planning a few tweaks to the scape. I dont like how the midground plants run to and from the log, gonna change that up some. 




DMtankd said:


> Burr,
> 
> Curious: have you ever tested the parameters in tank to see what the results of your dosing are?


Occasionally test N and P, usually if there's an issue of some kind. generally I dont get too involved with testing.


----------



## Greggz

Hey Burr740 I didn't know that Buces flowered. I must say that is pretty cool.

Do you have to buy your algae and have it shipped to you? It doesn't look like you can possibly grow enough in that tank to keep the shrimp fed!


----------



## user12345pk

Hello,
i'd like to get the same plants that you have can you help identify them for me (they're numbered). also where you got them from would also be helpful.
thanks


----------



## Brian Rodgers

Greggz said:


> Hey Burr740, I just showed your new pics to my wife.
> 
> She was in awe. I told her how you spent 3 hours trimming it last week.
> 
> The good thing is she thinks I am a little less nuts now.
> 
> Thanks!:grin2:
> 
> And by the way, just as stunning the second time through.


This so true and still funny. AC for After Crazy? 

Burr, as a total newb I can only say, holy moly!!! Yours is an incredible planted tank 

Thank you from all the remarkable descriptions. I came here wondering if this planted tank was possible. I didn't think so. Boy Howdy was I wrong. Stunning use of texture and color is outstanding. Vibrancy that makes want to be there in in my dreams as well as awake. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Hey Burr740 I didn't know that Buces flowered. I must say that is pretty cool.
> 
> Do you have to buy your algae and have it shipped to you? It doesn't look like you can possibly make enough in that tank to keep the shrimp fed!


Not sure if all Buces flower underwater but the two I have do. The smaller green species I had in the 75 did, and now these. Dont ask me what species they are because I have no idea haha.

As for algae, yeah I know a guy 



user12345pk said:


> Hello,
> i'd like to get the same plants that you have can you help identify them for me (they're numbered). also where you got them from would also be helpful.
> thanks


1. Rotala ramosior sunset
2. Pogosteman erectus
3. Ludwigia sp red, aka super red mini
4. Pogosteman kimberly
5. Rotala macranda 'variegated'
6. Proserpinaca palustris, aka mermaid weed

Got all these from other hobbyists, the for sale board on here is a good place to look.

Here's a close up of #5 in the 50 gal. (on the right) 










The regular variety is similar and a lot easier to find (and cheaper). Hopefully I'll have some of these to offer pretty soon, not sure when though.


** Shout out to my boy @Saxa Tilly for giving them to me a while back












Brian Rodgers said:


> This so true and still funny. AC for After Crazy?
> 
> Burr, as a total newb I can only say, holy moly!!! Yours is an incredible planted tank
> 
> Thank you from all the remarkable descriptions. I came here wondering if this planted tank was possible. I didn't think so. Boy Howdy was I wrong. Stunning use of texture and color is outstanding. Vibrancy that makes want to be there in in my dreams as well as awake. Thanks for sharing.


Thanks man.


----------



## PEdwards

I dunno, the plants look nice and all, but they're so short they look like the plants in my goldfish tank. Why don't you grow them out? Wait..I bet you could grow some really dank "stuff" in there. Why don't you do that?





Beautiful as always good sir.


----------



## BettaBettas

lol really "Dank" stuff. Made me laugh for a second seeing that on the forums  
Tbh though your tank looks like its doing great, and as @PEdwards said, its looking pretty damn Dank as all get out.


----------



## Greggz

PEdwards said:


> I dunno, the plants look nice and all, but they're so short they look like the plants in my goldfish tank. Why don't you grow them out? Wait..I bet you could grow some really dank "stuff" in there. Why don't you do that?


You know Phil, I was actually thinking the same thing. My mermaid weed grows out of the tank in a few weeks. Burr I don't know if many understand the amount of trimming and the attention to detail that goes into your presentation......but I do. I gotta hand it to you, your discipline is pretty amazing. 

Would be interesting to see your tank untamed (or Dank! as you will).


----------



## user12345pk

thank you



burr740 said:


> Not sure if all Buces flower underwater but the two I have do. The smaller green species I had in the 75 did, and now these. Dont ask me what species they are because I have no idea haha.
> 
> As for algae, yeah I know a guy
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Rotala ramosior sunset
> 2. Pogosteman erectus
> 3. Ludwigia sp red, aka super red mini
> 4. Pogosteman kimberly
> 5. Rotala macranda 'variegated'
> 6. Proserpinaca palustris, aka mermaid weed
> 
> Got all these from other hobbyists, the for sale board on here is a good place to look.
> 
> Here's a close up of #5 in the 50 gal. (on the right)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The regular variety is similar and a lot easier to find (and cheaper). Hopefully I'll have some of these to offer pretty soon, not sure when though.
> 
> 
> ** Shout out to my boy @Saxa Tilly for giving them to me a while back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks man.


----------



## DigityDog70

All your work has paid off! Is this your masterpiece or you yet to paint it? Have you considered a tank with a 4 dimensional appearance? I bet it would look stupendous! Thanks for sharing with us! My hat is off to you!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Not sure if all Buces flower underwater but the two I have do. The smaller green species I had in the 75 did, and now these. Dont ask me what species they are because I have no idea haha.
> 
> As for algae, yeah I know a guy
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Rotala ramosior sunset
> 2. Pogosteman erectus
> 3. Ludwigia sp red, aka super red mini
> 4. Pogosteman kimberly
> 5. Rotala macranda 'variegated'
> 6. Proserpinaca palustris, aka mermaid weed
> 
> Got all these from other hobbyists, the for sale board on here is a good place to look.
> 
> Here's a close up of #5 in the 50 gal. (on the right)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The regular variety is similar and a lot easier to find (and cheaper). Hopefully I'll have some of these to offer pretty soon, not sure when though.



Count me in Burr!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Sucks about the Sunsets. You were my go-to guy. Damn.


----------



## xmasone

*Some questions.*



burr740 said:


> If the cut off valve is wide open there's some mist coming out, not a lot but some.
> 
> Closing the valve just a little eliminates it due to the increase in pressure it creates. Apparently it takes very little pressure to squeeze out a micro bubble.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah somebody asked if I put bio ball inside this one. No it's completely empty. in retrospect I probably would have, because they made a difference in some of the other ones I built for the 75.


1st, I love your tank, it gives me lots to strive for 

I've been told not to use tap water because the junk in the water is bad for my plants so I use RO water. My plants don't do well anyway so I just made a CO2 setup, it doesn't look anything like yours. Where can I find info on the one you made?

Thank you for sharing your info!


----------



## Phokey

Thanks goes to Burr, most of this stanky dank stuff came from him... 

Inn side TT Too

Hope you don't mind the thread jack, made this one last night and figured you'd dig it.

Cheers!

-Scott


----------



## Onyx165

Hey Burr, been creeping on your tank journals for a while and gotta say I love your plants, they look like labors of love!

Also really appreciate your experience and documenting of T5 bulb combos. Noticed you're not running the wavepoint ultra growths anymore; any particular reason why?

If you were to run a 4-bulb setup, what would be _your_ personal ideal combo? 

Thanks again for sharing your great tank journals


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Sucks about the Sunsets. You were my go-to guy. Damn.


They're making a comeback! 



xmasone said:


> 1st, I love your tank, it gives me lots to strive for
> 
> I've been told not to use tap water because the junk in the water is bad for my plants so I use RO water. My plants don't do well anyway so I just made a CO2 setup, it doesn't look anything like yours. Where can I find info on the one you made?
> 
> Thank you for sharing your info!


Thanks. Do you mean the reactor? The main pipe is 3" x 24", everything else is just common fittings. If you need a detailed parts list just let me know.



Phokey said:


> Thanks goes to Burr, most of this stanky dank stuff came from him...
> 
> Inn side TT Too
> 
> Hope you don't mind the thread jack, made this one last night and figured you'd dig it.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> -Scott


That's a great looking tank! Looks like an ancient ruin. Is that petrified wood or some other kind of rock?



Onyx165 said:


> Hey Burr, been creeping on your tank journals for a while and gotta say I love your plants, they look like labors of love!
> 
> Also really appreciate your experience and documenting of T5 bulb combos. Noticed you're not running the wavepoint ultra growths anymore; any particular reason why?
> 
> If you were to run a 4-bulb setup, what would be _your_ personal ideal combo?
> 
> Thanks again for sharing your great tank journals


Those Wavepoints are just weird. Im sure it's great for plants but it's such a harsh looking purple I found it unpleasant. But say, one in a four bulb would be OK with a couple 6500Ks and a red/pink type. Just depends on what you like. Personally I like regular flora types better

Ideal 4 bulb combo? Two 6500Ks and two Truelumen Floras are hard to beat imo.

In the 75 my favorite combo was probably one each 6500K, 3000K, ATI Purple, TL Flora.


----------



## burr740

Back to being a smorgasbord with random plants stuck everywhere.










Saxa gave me several new species, more Pantanal to kill, Erio lineare, Juncas repens, and a fuzzy Limnophila species from Asia that's not yet identified. It's like a small version of the giant. 

Gonna let things grow out for a couple weeks and decide on a new arrangement, and what to keep. Really hope the Pantanal does well, I'd love to use that. Maybe the 3rd time will be a charm 










Everything is doing pretty well. I'll try to post some nicer close ups here in a few days.


----------



## BettaBettas

liking the pennywort wall back there, trying that myself. having mixed success


----------



## Freemananana

Those rasboras look great! I ordered some myself. How many do you have in here? The color looks really red in the last photo, do you edit them at all? Or is it just the lighting?


----------



## shamrock62081

Looking great! Thanks for providing some inspiration for my blank slate I'm working on right now.


----------



## burr740

BettaBettas said:


> liking the pennywort wall back there, trying that myself. having mixed success


Havent decided if I like it or not. Thats only two strands, sorta running up and around the filter intake. Had more, took about half of it out last week. There's a lot of current right there and it gets bent forward too much.



Freemananana said:


> Those rasboras look great! I ordered some myself. How many do you have in here? The color looks really red in the last photo, do you edit them at all? Or is it just the lighting?


Think there's 25. Had planned on a school of 50 or 60 but these have turned into a pretty decent group.

The colors are due to the light. The only thing I ever do to pics is adjust the brightness sometimes.



shamrock62081 said:


> Looking great! Thanks for providing some inspiration for my blank slate I'm working on right now.


Thanks!


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

Your plants look very healthy!


----------



## fablau

Looking fantastic Burr. Still dosing 0.01 Fe from CSM and 0.01 Fe from DTPA?


----------



## sohankpatel

Heh, i saw Pantanal wasn't doing too well for you. Everyone I have talked to says that soft water is a must. What is your kh and gh? I want to try Macrandra Variegated, cause I only have mini type IV right now, but if it needs softer water, im screwed. I have some Pantanal growing in water with a Gh of 11 and a KH of 7, and it is doing well so far. The guy that I got it from has water with a GH of 6 and a KH of 3 or 4, he also double doses micros and phosphates.
Any tips for Rotala Ramosoir sunset? I also have a bit of this that is growing fairly slowly, but looks pretty nice. I have it under 2x BML 10000k XB fixtures at 40% ~110 PAR. 
I feel bad for you, you need to buy the Pantanal from someone, and you lose when you kill it. I am fortunate enough to belong to a fish club, and man, you should see the stuff that is given away for free. Last meeting 10 erios were raffled off, and from what I heard they were not cheap.


----------



## Phokey

I used Pagoda rock I found both in the bins as well as the display tanks at my LFS (Premier Aquatics, GA) for the temple. The rest I sourced from the north GA mountains plus I added two petrified wood chunks I've had since I was a kid. 

-Scott


----------



## fablau

sohankpatel said:


> Heh, i saw Pantanal wasn't doing too well for you. Everyone I have talked to says that soft water is a must. What is your kh and gh? I want to try Macrandra Variegated, cause I only have mini type IV right now, but if it needs softer water, im screwed. I have some Pantanal growing in water with a Gh of 11 and a KH of 7, and it is doing well so far. The guy that I got it from has water with a GH of 6 and a KH of 3 or 4, he also double doses micros and phosphates.
> Any tips for Rotala Ramosoir sunset? I also have a bit of this that is growing fairly slowly, but looks pretty nice. I have it under 2x BML 10000k XB fixtures at 40% ~110 PAR.
> I feel bad for you, you need to buy the Pantanal from someone, and you lose when you kill it. I am fortunate enough to belong to a fish club, and man, you should see the stuff that is given away for free. Last meeting 10 erios were raffled off, and from what I heard they were not cheap.




Interesting, I'd be curious to know where you live... I have been looking for some sort of club to join nearby in a long time... I am in southern California. Thanks.


----------



## fablau

Phokey said:


> I used Pagoda rock I found both in the bins as well as the display tanks at my LFS (Premier Aquatics, GA) for the temple. The rest I sourced from the north GA mountains plus I added two petrified wood chunks I've had since I was a kid.
> 
> -Scott




Those rocks are awesome Scott! Great job!


----------



## PEdwards

If the plants grow any more you're going to need to rename this to Jungle Fever!


----------



## d33pVI

PEdwards said:


> If the plants grow any more you're going to need to rename this to Jungle Fever!


lol, I've been waiting for Burr's tanks to fill in since I first saw it over a year ago. Still waiting! The trim-fu is strong with this one.


----------



## Ljupco Radevski

Wow, thats good tank! all compliments matey!


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys. Trim-fu!


----------



## sdwindansea

Wow, what a disaster, I think I saw a brown spot on one of the leaves.

Edit: sorry that was just a smudge on my monitor.

The plants are looking incredible (as always). Do you still have the rasboras in that tank?


----------



## Greggz

Burr740 I like your style. No commentary required. 

Just let the pictures do the talking. 

And they are telling quite a story. Beautiful shots as always.


----------



## Ben Belton

I really want to get something like this started, but as the summer approaches, I'm not sure this is something I should be diving into right now. It's hard to resist.


----------



## Esteban Colberto

Really lovely tank and tons of good information. Well done sir.


----------



## Sean W.

How old are your Downoi? I love how compact yours say. Mine are like a freaking stem plant


----------



## ua hua

I'm assuming you like the Truelumen flora's? I have been thinking about getting a couple of those to try out to replace some old Geismanns and for the price I haven't found anything cheaper.


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Looking fantastic Burr. Still dosing 0.01 Fe from CSM and 0.01 Fe from DTPA?


For the past year or so, the sweet spot seems to be around .01 - .015 csmb, and .01 - .02 dtpa, 3x a week

My dosing bottles last 5 weeks. I usually tweak the dosage one way or the other and try it for the duration....still searching for the elusive sweet spot.

The previous batch was .015/.015, and I didnt really like it. For whatever reason, using proportionately more dtpa than csmb seems to do better. 

Maybe it's a ratio thing? Saw where Tom said recently that ratios DO matter when dosing very low levels. 

The latest batch of micros is .01 csmb and .015 dtpa. Its been two weeks and seems to be very favorable. 

For the next batch, when these 5 weeks are up, I plan to increase dtpa to .02

Obviously I may just be imagining things and these small tweaks in tiny levels of micros doesnt have squat to do with anything, but it really does seem to make a big difference

So I just keeps on searching.. 



Sean W. said:


> How old are your Downoi? I love how compact yours say. Mine are like a freaking stem plant


The Downoi has been a revolving door of new babies because I keep selling all the good ones. Thats why it always looks small here.

Thinking about doing a Penthorum carpet in that whole area, up to and including where the compact hygro is. Either there or replace the S repens with it. 

But yeah, it gets pretty tall for me too












ua hua said:


> I'm assuming you like the Truelumen flora's? I have been thinking about getting a couple of those to try out to replace some old Geismanns and for the price I haven't found anything cheaper.


Yes I like them a lot. Never used Geishmans but Id imagine the TL Flora is a decent replacement for their flora bulb.

Zoo-med's Flora Sun is OK too, similar price, but I like the color of TL better. It's a warmer red than the ZM


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> For the past year or so, the sweet spot for me seems to be around .01 - .015 csmb, and .01 - .02 dtpa.
> 
> My dosing bottles last 5 weeks. I usually tweak the dosage one way or the other and try it for the duration....still searching for the elusive sweet spot.


Burr740 I was hoping you can tell more about how you mix up your micro solution? We have the same size tank, and I've never made a solution. Right now I am dosing about .1 csmb, but may try a lower dosing. Occurs to me when you get that size of dose, measuring spoons aren't good for much. 

Do you put anything else besides the ferts and water in it (metricide)??


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 I was hoping you can tell more about how you mix up your micro solution? We have the same size tank, and I've never made a solution. Right now I am dosing about .1 csmb, but may try a lower dosing. Occurs to me when you get that size of dose, measuring spoons aren't good for much.
> 
> Do you put anything else besides the ferts and water in it (metricide)??


Hot tap water + 5-10 ml of distilled vinegar. Add the vinegar, swirl it around a bit and let it sit while measuring the dry ferts.

The vinegar does two things; Acts as a mold retardant, and most importantly, it drops the PH way down to help preserve the chelators and various micro nutrients that become less effective at higher ph ranges. 

Hence the reason to mix the water and vinegar first and let it sit for a minute or two.

Excel will keep the mold away but it doesnt help with PH. If your mixing water is over 6.5 or so, Id go with vinegar. My tap PH is ~7.7


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Hot tap water + 5-10 ml of distilled vinegar. Add the vinegar, swirl it around a bit and let it sit while measuring the dry ferts.
> 
> The vinegar does two things; Acts as a mold retardant, and most importantly, it drops the PH way down to help preserve the chelators and various micro nutrients that become less effective at higher ph ranges.
> 
> Hence the reason to mix the water and vinegar first and let it sit for a minute or two.
> 
> Excel will keep the mold away but it doesnt help with PH. If your mixing water is over 6.5 or so, Id go with vinegar. My tap PH is ~7.7


Thanks Burr740, just what I was looking for.

By the way, did you take classes to become a "Plant Whisperer"? Or did it come naturally?:wink2:

But in all seriousness, I wanted to thank you for all your help and inspiration. I appreciate the way you share your experiences, and I'm sure it's been a great deal of help to many others here.


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Hot tap water + 5-10 ml of distilled vinegar. Add the vinegar, swirl it around a bit and let it sit while measuring the dry ferts.
> The vinegar does two things; Acts as a mold retardant, and most importantly, it drops the PH way down to help preserve the chelators and various micro nutrients that become less effective at higher ph ranges.
> Hence the reason to mix the water and vinegar first and let it sit for a minute or two.
> Excel will keep the mold away but it doesnt help with PH. If your mixing water is over 6.5 or so, Id go with vinegar. My tap PH is ~7.7


I have been talking to Burr off and on about micros but this in one of those "expert tips" that must not have sank in. Thank you for posting this!!! My PH is very similar to yours and my micro bottle is almost empty so you can probably guess what I will be doing today


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> For the past year or so, the sweet spot for me seems to be around .01 - .015 csmb, and .01 - .02 dtpa.
> 
> My dosing bottles last 5 weeks. I usually tweak the dosage one way or the other and try it for the duration....still searching for the elusive sweet spot.
> 
> The previous batch was .015/.015, and I didnt really like it. For whatever reason, using proportionately more dtpa than csmb seems to do better.
> 
> Maybe it's a ratio thing? Saw where Tom said recently that ratios DO matter when dosing very low levels.
> 
> The latest batch of micros is .01 csmb and .015 dtpa. Its been two weeks and seems to be very favorable.
> 
> For the next batch, when these 5 weeks are up, I plan to increase dtpa to .02
> 
> Obviously I may just be imagining things and these small tweaks in tiny levels of micros doesnt have squat to do with anything, but it really does seem to make a big difference
> 
> So I just keeps on searching..




Fantastic info, Thank you very much. That dose 3 times a week?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Thanks Burr740, just what I was looking for.
> 
> By the way, did you take classes to become a "Plant Whisperer"? Or did it come naturally?:wink2:
> 
> But in all seriousness, I wanted to thank you for all your help and inspiration. I appreciate the way you share your experiences, and I'm sure it's been a great deal of help to many others here.


Thanks man. Reading about other peoples experiences has certainly helped me, that's for sure.



Immortal1 said:


> I have been talking to Burr off and on about micros but this in one of those "expert tips" that must not have sank in. Thank you for posting this!!! My PH is very similar to yours and my micro bottle is almost empty so you can probably guess what I will be doing today


Well, the "expert" in this case is Barr because that's where it came from. 



fablau said:


> Fantastic info, Thank you very much. That dose 3 times a week?


Yup, 3x week



sdwindansea said:


> Wow, what a disaster, I think I saw a brown spot on one of the leaves.
> 
> Edit: sorry that was just a smudge on my monitor.
> 
> The plants are looking incredible (as always). Do you still have the rasboras in that tank?


Hah, thanks. 

Yes on the Rasboras, there's about 25 in there, and 3 German Blue Rams, 2 SAE, 6-8 otos, and 3-4 Amano shrimp. 

Planning to add a small school of Cories in the near future, half dozen more Amanos, and possibly another small schooling fish or maybe just a few more Rasboras.


----------



## shamrock62081

Do you feel like you have enough algae to keep you otos happy or do you supplement with other foods?



burr740 said:


> Yes on the Rasboras, there's about 25 in there, and 3 German Blue Rams, 2 SAE, 6-8 otos, and 3-4 Amano shrimp.


----------



## burr740

shamrock62081 said:


> Do you feel like you have enough algae to keep you otos happy or do you supplement with other foods?


I've fed them before but they never got too excited about it, blanched veggies, algae wafers, etc.

There's probably plenty of green dust algae to keep them happy, even though you cant really see any. 

If I go 2 weeks without wiping the front glass you can look from the side and see a nice film developing. So I know it's there.

Funny thing, the back wall and right side havent been wiped one time since the tank was set up. They stay clean as can be.

Must be something to do with the black paint blocking light from the outside.


----------



## burr740

Still auditioning a few species and tweaking the arrangement. Starting to get a plan in my mind, it'll take a few more weeks to get there.

Here it stands today. Trim Fu! 











Lots of changes coming:

- Im not wild about the Lobelia, probably change its path a little bit...or something. Also gonna re-route the araguaia some way.

- The left and right foregrounds are still up in the air. Thinking of a Penthorum carpet on the right, and maybe Downoi on the left, or redo the s repens. Totally undecided at this point.

- Brought the moss log back and ditched the sword. The reason I didnt like the sword is the leaves want to lay flat against the ground instead of standing up. Due to the light, maybe? It did the same thing in the 75. Takes up too much real estate with little payoff.

Not to mention how much I love the giant willow moss (sp gigantea). it grows long branchy fronds with bright green tips. Swaying in the current looks sorta like an anemone or something


Added some wallichii from the 50. It's been about a week and doing well so far. Plan to have a much bigger group if it continues to grow nice.










Probably not the ideal location but from the side it'll be a good look. Imagine a wider and taller group












Varigated AR is growing nice, although the leaves still wont stay entirely flat. Aggressive pruning is the key for any AR variety. By that I mean regularly pinching off old crappy leaves











Erio Lineare courtesy of Saxa Tilly (Thanks man!). Awesome color on this one. Tentatively planning to do a line running front to back at an angle beside the moss log,












Rotala macranda variegated. These have been through hell but finally coming around to look pretty good.










Planning a bigger group right here if the positive trend continues. Got a few more in the 50 that look great.











Pantanal chronicles:


In the 120 they've caught a second wind and doing pretty well.

11 days ago I trimmed all the crappy tips as side shoots began to form.











Now today, it's grown 8-10" and looking fairly nice











Side view. Its ready for a top and replant but Im hesitant to do it.











Why Im hesitant....

The ones in the 50 hit the surface and I replanted them. Three days later this happened, overnight. The new leaves appear to be melting










This plant confounds the hell out of me! :icon_eek:


----------



## Doc7

Looking GOOD!


----------



## LRJ

That walichii is looking sweet!!

Do you have any hunches as to the cause of the issues with the pantanal?


----------



## sohankpatel

Pantanal crapped out on me last week, I had one stem and boom, it died. The tops knot up and turn white, I cut the top off and it died. What is your water like? My macrandra is a nice pink color, not deep red, although mine is mini type iv. I heard that soft water is the key to both plants.


----------



## burr740

LRJ said:


> That walichii is looking sweet!!
> 
> Do you have any hunches as to the cause of the issues with the pantanal?


No idea. Feel like everything is good, and other "sensitives" are doing well.

Not enough micros/fe perhaps. But Ive killed it in the past trying to push those levels up, at least that's what I thought.

Im not too keen on rocking the boat at this point. Too many things doing well now that had problems in the past 

Gonna see if this batch becomes worthy to be here, if not then Im through messing with it as far as the 120 goes. Probably just keep a few in the 50 to see if anything changes.





sohankpatel said:


> Pantanal crapped out on me last week, I had one stem and boom, it died. The tops knot up and turn white, I cut the top off and it died. What is your water like? My macrandra is a nice pink color, not deep red, although mine is mini type iv. I heard that soft water is the key to both plants.


KH ~5.5

I dont think either need super soft water. @Saxa Tilly has grown all these in similar water, seen a few others as well. Thats not to say 2-3 isnt better than 5 or 6, but I really dont know


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> No idea. Feel like everything is good, and other "sensitives" are doing well.
> 
> Not enough micros/fe perhaps. But Ive killed it in the past trying to push those levels up. So idk really
> 
> Im not too keen on rocking the boat at this point. Too many things doing well now that didnt used to
> 
> If this batch doesnt do well after replanting the tops, then Im through messing with it as far as the 120 goes. Probably just keep a few in the 50 to see if anything changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> KH ~5.5
> 
> I dont think either need really soft water. @Saxa Tilly has grown all these in water similar to mine



You always talk about getting awesome plants form @Saxa Tilly, but I never see him(her?) post for sale ads or any kind of tank journals anywhere. Where can us regular folk see what @Saxa Tilly has? :nerd:


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> You always talk about getting awesome plants form @*Saxa Tilly*, but I never see him(her?) post for sale ads or any kind of tank journals anywhere. Where can us regular folk see what @*Saxa Tilly* has? :nerd:


Saxa currently doesnt really sell plants. He gives me stuff out of the goodness of his heart, and I try to return the favor when I can. 

You can see his plants here

Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

and here

Rotala Kill Tank - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


Reading both threads is well worth the time. Tons and tons of great info scattered all through both


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> Saxa currently doesnt really sell plants. He gives me stuff out of the goodness of his heart, and I try to return the favor when I can.
> 
> You can see his plants here
> 
> Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
> 
> and here
> 
> Rotala Kill Tank - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
> 
> 
> Reading both threads is well worth the time. Tons and tons of great info scattered all through both



Wow... we're all just fighting for 2nd place. What a great tank that 180 is.


----------



## PEdwards

Ah ha! Those post links suddenly make things come together.  It's funny how different usernames on different forums can create whole new identities for the same person. 


The tank's looking great as always man, thanks for the updated pictures. I'm loving that Acmella. The coloration on yours is astounding. As soon as mine recovers and gains some mass, it's being turned into a street. Like Saxa said, it's a great substitute for S. cernuus; particularly in shallow tanks like mine.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Sean W. said:


> Wow... we're all just fighting for 2nd place. What a great tank that 180 is.


Hey Sean - thanks! 

If you recall, I offered to send you plants a while ago because you are a local SoCal dude and I could use more local plant dudes to bounce plants off. Especially since you seem to know what you're doing. But your tank was (at the time) tissue-culture plants only. And my plants definitely have some snails and algae. So we kinda dropped the subject. I'm half way to Santa Barbara from where you are. But if you're ever up this way, holler! I'll be happy to send you home with a bunch a snail eggs and may be some plants. :wink2:


----------



## Sean W.

Saxa Tilly said:


> Hey Sean - thanks!
> 
> If you recall, I offered to send you plants a while ago because you are a local SoCal dude and I could use more local plant dudes to bounce plants off. Especially since you seem to know what you're doing. But your tank was (at the time) tissue-culture plants only. And my plants definitely have some snails and algae. So we kinda dropped the subject. I'm half way to Santa Barbara from where you are. But if you're ever up this way, holler! I'll be happy to send you home with a bunch a snail eggs and may be some plants. :wink2:


Ha! I do remember that now, tho in my ignorance I didn't know who you were or what you had to offer haha!

I tried to maintain a snail free environment for as long as I could, but alas, when @burr740 send me Ludwigia sp 'Mini Super Red' to replace the Rotala Mac that just wouldnt turn red, there were some hitch hikers. So with that out the window Im open to anything you would be willing to send me haha 

side note, I'm replying to your comment on my " aeroponics emersed enclosure " thread on barrreport


----------



## Saxa Tilly

PEdwards said:


> Ah ha! Those post links suddenly make things come together.  It's funny how different usernames on different forums can create whole new identities for the same person.
> 
> 
> The tank's looking great as always man, thanks for the updated pictures. I'm loving that Acmella. The coloration on yours is astounding. As soon as mine recovers and gains some mass, it's being turned into a street. Like Saxa said, it's a great substitute for S. cernuus; particularly in shallow tanks like mine.



He-heh! Wasn't trying to create a sense of mystery behind my identity. I'm out of the closet on my usernames and handles. 

Saxa Tilly here. 
Pikez on Barr. (Crenicichla saxatilis was the first pike cichlid described. Hence Saxa Tilly)
Valar Gracilis on APC. Don't ask. 
Space Cowboy to some. Maurice to others. But I mostly answer to Vin. 

Acmella if planted tightly, makes a nice plant for Dutch streets. It gets leggy if light is low. Still, the shade of green is really unique. It's a cool green, but not as bluish as Eriocaulon lineare. I over-wintered my Acmella outside (Southern California) and it fine. Just slowed down a bit. It handles topping, trimming, and other abuse really well. 

And here is the problem with Saururus cernuus. I keep cutting the stems short and they keep popping their heads above the water. Way too hard to use this as a Dutch street plant. 




Various iterations of Acmella over the years:

 

 

 

 



Bump:


Sean W. said:


> I tried to maintain a snail free environment for as long as I could, but alas, when @burr740 send me Ludwigia sp 'Mini Super Red' to replace the Rotala Mac that just wouldnt turn red, there were some hitch hikers. So with that out the window Im open to anything you would be willing to send me haha


Ha! It was just a matter of time before your tank got de-virginized. And who better than Burr to do it. 

OK - PM me. I'll load you up as the opportunity arises.


----------



## Sean W.

Saxa Tilly said:


> He-heh! Wasn't trying to create a sense of mystery behind my identity. I'm out of the closet on my usernames and handles.
> 
> Saxa Tilly here.
> Pikez on Barr. (Crenicichla saxatilis was the first pike cichlid described. Hence Saxa Tilly)
> Valar Gracilis on APC. Don't ask.
> *Space Cowboy to some. Maurice to others. But I mostly answer to Vin. *
> 
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Ha! It was just a matter of time before your tank got de-virginized. And who better than Burr to do it.
> 
> OK - PM me. I'll load you up as the opportunity arises.


Lol, what happened to " Ganster of Love" ?

Yep, right after I put them in I was like, " oh man, it would be nice if no snails made it in there". Later I saw this GIANT pond snail on my glass, there goes the neighborhood. 

Here are my usernames:

here on planted tank: Sean W.
Barrreport: Sean W. 
APC: Sean W.
Monsterfishkeepers: Sean W.
DIYfishkeepers: Sean W. 
thepufferforum: Sean W.

:nerd:

Whats this plant here, circled in red:


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Sean W. said:


> Here are my usernames:
> 
> here on planted tank: Sean W.
> Barrreport: Sean W.
> APC: Sean W.
> Monsterfishkeepers: Sean W.
> DIYfishkeepers: Sean W.
> thepufferforum: Sean W.


Do you wear the same costume for Halloween every year? :laugh2:

That's my Pogostemon erectus. Can't grow the damn plant to save my life. Just about everyone seems able to grow it. But not me. For me, the plant stays short. Branches way too much. Has short stubby leaves. And melts if you look at it wrong. It's a nutrient thing. I just don't know what the 'thing' is or how to fix it. 

But every few months, Burr will send me a few sweet looking stems. And I slowly melt them. I have sworn the plant off for now. But I am sure I will be ready to stick my finger in the socket soon enough. And Burr will probably oblige.


----------



## Sean W.

Saxa Tilly said:


> Do you wear the same costume for Halloween every year? :laugh2:
> 
> That's my Pogostemon erectus. Can't grow the damn plant to save my life. Just about everyone seems able to grow it. But not me. For me, the plant stays short. Branches way too much. Has short stubby leaves. And melts if you look at it wrong. It's a nutrient thing. I just don't know what the 'thing' is or how to fix it.
> 
> But every few months, Burr will send me a few sweet looking stems. And I slowly melt them. I have sworn the plant off for now. But I am sure I will be ready to stick my finger in the socket soon enough. And Burr will probably oblige.


oh ya, wow that doesnt look like P. Erectus Ive ever seen!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Saxa currently doesnt really sell plants. He gives me stuff out of the goodness of his heart, and I try to return the favor when I can.
> 
> You can see his plants here
> 
> Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
> 
> and here
> 
> Rotala Kill Tank - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report
> 
> 
> Reading both threads is well worth the time. Tons and tons of great info scattered all through both


Burr740 first of all it's always a pleasure to see new pics of your tank. It seems the only constant in your tank is change. It's always evolving, and I enjoy seeing what you are thinking and why you make the changes you do. It gives me inspiration to give my own presentation more thought (which it can sorely use!).

And I agree with the above. The Pikez/Saxa Tilly threads above are really a good read. I've gone back and re-read portions several times. Lots of good food for thought there.

But I must add, I'd put your 75 gallon journey thread in the same class. I've read and re-read it, and it has helped me greatly in my own journey. Speaking of which, my own updates to be following soon.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> But I must add, I'd put your 75 gallon journey thread in the same class. I've read and re-read it, and it has helped me greatly in my own journey. Speaking of which, my own updates to be following soon.


I, too, have read Burr's journals a few times. It's one thing to have pretty pictures (which he does) and it's nice to vicariously follow along and learn from someone else (which we have.) 

But Burr has pulled off something *important* here that needs to be pointed out. 

And that is: he has brought sanity to the micro tox debate that started raging a couple of years ago. If you recall, there was a lot of swearing, cussing, name-calling and after all that, we had very little actionable info to walk away with. What Burr single-handedly did was show us that plants need very little non-iron traces to thrive. 

When we swung from the '*OMG! You're adding WHAT to your tank?*' back in the late 1990s to '*I'm still having nitrate deficiency with EI*' recently, we kinda lost perspective. 

He put the 'micro' back in micro-nutrients. Intentionally or not, without taking sides in the toxicity debate. When I first started reading the 75 gallon journal, I thought there was a decimal error in his trace dosing. Turns out there wasn't. That was a turning point in my horticulture routine.


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> When I first started reading the 75 gallon journal, I thought there was a decimal error in his trace dosing. Turns out there wasn't. That was a turning point in my horticulture routine.


Funny you say that. I did exactly the same thing. Probably wasn't until about the third time that I read it that I really understood how little he was actually dosing. Thought surely that must be a typo or error. 

I'm actually just starting to follow that low of dosing this week, so will be watching everything closely to see where it leads.


----------



## Sean W.

Saxa Tilly said:


> I, too, have read Burr's journals a few times. It's one thing to have pretty pictures (which he does) and it's nice to vicariously follow along and learn from someone else (which we have.)
> 
> But Burr has pulled off something *important* here that needs to be pointed out.
> 
> And that is: he has brought sanity to the micro tox debate that started raging a couple of years ago. If you recall, there was a lot of swearing, cussing, name-calling and after all that, we had very little actionable info to walk away with. What Burr single-handedly did was show us that plants need very little non-iron traces to thrive.
> 
> When we swung from the '*OMG! You're adding WHAT to your tank?*' back in the late 1990s to '*I'm still having nitrate deficiency with EI*' recently, we kinda lost perspective.
> 
> He put the 'micro' back in micro-nutrients. Intentionally or not, without taking sides in the toxicity debate. When I first started reading the 75 gallon journal, I thought there was a decimal error in his trace dosing. Turns out there wasn't. That was a turning point in my horticulture routine.





Greggz said:


> Funny you say that. I did exactly the same thing. Probably wasn't until about the third time that I read it that I really understood how little he was actually dosing. Thought surely that must be a typo or error.
> 
> I'm actually just starting to follow that low of dosing this week, so will be watching everything closely to see where it leads.


 I don't dose anything... at all :|


----------



## rrebello

*120 Gal - Dutchy Freestyle*

Man gorgeous tank, very impressive!!! Hope one day i can do something like that.
I do use the same substrate as you do, do u do root tabs also or only ferts at column?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Sean W. said:


> I don't dose anything... at all :|


You've got Aquasoil and fish. That'll cover the plants' needs for some time. You may start noticing some deficiencies after a year or two.


----------



## clownplanted

Just read every page in your journal and is nothing short of incredible. I for sure have learned a ton so thank you. So I have a question for you. I dose the NilocG EI ferts. But I went the pre-mixed micro/macro packets. Would it be beneficial as you say to add 5-10ml of vinegar to the micros 500ml pre mixed bottle? Or would this not really have the same effect as you suggested? I added 10ml of excel as that was suggested to keep it from molding. I also have pretty high ph from tap about 7.7 as well.


----------



## burr740

@Greggz , I took some pics with different lights on this morning, thought you might find it interesting. Just finished a wc so the tank is bubbly


TruLumen Flora
6500K
ATI Purp
Zoomed Flora











3000K
TruLumen Flora











All 6. The difference from the top pic is subtle. One thing, notice how the background turns black again with the 3000K in the mix











50 gal with one 6500K and one TruLumen Flora. I think this is a tough combo to beat for only 2 bulbs 











And just for giggles I took a couple pics of both filter outputs while the water was filling up.

The Aquatop has a 1" outflow pipe to reduce velocity. The volume is there, but the velocity is greatly reduced. 











The Hydor (with SunSun pipes and skimmer)












rrebello said:


> Man gorgeous tank, very impressive!!! Hope one day i can do something like that.
> I do use the same substrate as you do, do u do root tabs also or only ferts at column?


I push individual balls of O+ around various things. I'd say most plants have access to a little bit once their roots spread out, but it's used VERY sparingly



clownplanted said:


> Just read every page in your journal and is nothing short of incredible. I for sure have learned a ton so thank you. So I have a question for you. I dose the NilocG EI ferts. But I went the pre-mixed micro/macro packets. Would it be beneficial as you say to add 5-10ml of vinegar to the micros 500ml pre mixed bottle? Or would this not really have the same effect as you suggested? I added 10ml of excel as that was suggested to keep it from molding. I also have pretty high ph from tap about 7.7 as well.


Thanks. Should be the same for all micros, regardless of brand or whatever.


----------



## clownplanted

burr740 said:


> @Greggz , I took some pics with different lights on this morning, thought you might find it interesting. Just finished a wc so the tank is bubbly
> 
> 
> TruLumen Flora
> 6500K
> ATI Purp
> Zoomed Flora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3000K
> TruLumen Flora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All 6. The difference from the top pic is subtle. One thing, notice how the background turns black again with the 3000K in the mix
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 50 gal with one 6500K and one TruLumen Flora. I think this is a tough combo to beat for only 2 bulbs
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And just for giggles I took a couple pics of both filter outputs while the water was filling up.
> 
> The Aquatop has a 1" outflow pipe to reduce velocity. The volume is there, but the velocity is greatly reduced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Hydor (with SunSun pipes and skimmer)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I push individual balls of O+ around various things. I'd say most plants have access to a little bit once their roots spread out, but it's used VERY sparingly
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. Should be the same for all micros, regardless of brand or whatever.




Thanks so much. Nothing short of amazing your tank. All the colors and how they are all set. Incredible. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Greggz , I took some pics with different lights on this morning, thought you might find it interesting. Just finished a wc so the tank is bubbly


Burr great pictures. That 3000k bulb is interesting. What brand is the one you are using? I may have to put one into my mix. 

I wonder how the ATI Purple and the 3000k would look if you ran just those two together? Might be an interesting combo for my early evening viewing. I do like the way it looks with the Flora bulb as well. 

Of course, your tank would look great under any lighting! And nice to see a picture of the 50G. Do you do anything different in that tank? Or just try to duplicate the 120G so the plants can transition easily if they get called up to the majors??


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr great pictures. That 3000k bulb is interesting. What brand is the one you are using? I may have to put one into my mix.


These are Plantmax brand. Hydropinic suppliers generally have them, probably have to google around a bit.

My last two light fixtures came with choice of bulbs and I always get a couple 3000Ks along with 6500Ks



Greggz said:


> I wonder how the ATI Purple and the 3000k would look if you ran just those two together?


Wow, not bad actually. First time Ive ever had just these two on. Amazing how they balance each other out.












The 3000K is also a beast, par-wise. It's highest par bulb out of them all, with slightly more than the 2nd place 6500Ks

Here it is with the other four bulbs - two TL Floras, a ZM Flora, and a 6500K













Greggz said:


> Do you do anything different in that tank? Or just try to duplicate the 120G so the plants can transition easily if they get called up to the majors??


Everything is the same except light. The 120 has about 20-25 more PAR, ~95 vs 115-120. 

Ive actually been considering going to 4 bulbs to drop it closer to the 50's level. Most of the time, the real sensitive species do a little better in the 50. The tank is more forgiving, slower to react.

Another thing is the sheer size of things in the 120. Pogo kimberlys get 7" wide at the tops, literally, with stems like a pool cue. They look just as nice in the 50 but with far less girth, same goes for most things.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> These are Plantmax brand. Hydropinic suppliers generally have them, probably have to google around a bit.
> 
> My last two light fixtures came with choice of bulbs and I always get a couple 3000Ks along with 6500Ks
> 
> Wow, not bad actually. First time Ive ever had just these two on. Amazing how they balance each other out.


Burr thanks for trying that out. I must say, I like that combination. Just ordered one of the Plantmax. From what I see I think it's a better combo than the Flora I have it paired with now. I bet it will also be good at bringing out the colors of my Rainbows.

Interesting on the 50G. As closely as they are set up, you still notice differences. Just goes to show every tank is different, and this hobby is far from an exact science.


----------



## Sean W.

That gives me an Idea, I will have to try my True Lumen Flora and my Wave point color wave bulb together, take out the 6500k. hmmmm


----------



## MadRiverPat

burr740 said:


> 50 gal with one 6500K and one TruLumen Flora. I think this is a tough combo to beat for only 2 bulbs


What lighting are you usually running on this 50 gallon? 4 bulbs?


----------



## burr740

MadRiverPat said:


> What lighting are you usually running on this 50 gallon? 4 bulbs?


Its a two bulb unit. The tank is like a short 55 gal, about 18" tall


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> The 120 has about 20-25 more PAR, ~95 vs 115-120.
> 
> Ive actually been considering going to 4 bulbs to drop it closer to the 50's level. Most of the time, the real sensitive species do a little better in the 50. The tank is more forgiving, slower to react.
> 
> Another thing is the sheer size of things in the 120. Pogo kimberlys get 7" wide at the tops, literally, with stems like a pool cue. They look just as nice in the 50 but with far less girth, same goes for most things.


how much PAR do you have at corners for the 50 gal and 120 gal?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> how much PAR do you have at corners for the 50 gal and 120 gal?


Just took some readings in the 120











Numbers 1-3 are measured at the very front, 4 is on top of the buces.


With all 6 bulbs:

1 - 115
2 - 118
3 - 106
4 - 132


With the two sets of outside bulbs on, 4 total (3 pinks and the 6500K)

1 - 66
2 - 68
3 - 61
4 - 72


With the two middle bulbs (3000K and ATI Purp)

1 - 48
2 - 49
3 - 43
4 - 61


----------



## Tampa Tony

This is the cleanest tank I've seen. The color is almost unreal, like it's photoshop. Amazing, keep up the good work.


----------



## Immortal1

Always amazed at how much light you have and yet very little (if any) algae. Impressed as always


----------



## Greggz

Burr I like the way you measured it with the different combinations/numbers of bulbs. I should have taken the time to do that while I had the meter on hand. It looks like we are pretty close to the same PAR with all six bulbs on. You must be around 200 at the surface. And your other readings give me some idea of where I am with 2 or 4 bulbs running.

Do you run all six bulbs for the entire photo period? And if so, how long are the lights on?


----------



## Sean W.

I put the Wave Point " Color Wave - Optimum Color Enhancer " bulb and the " True Lumen - Flora " bulb in my fixture. I REALLY like the combo!

This picture is heavily shopped to exaggerate the color of the bulbs. In reality The True lumen isnt as red and the color wave bulb isnt as purple









Here is a FTS showing the combo


----------



## Greggz

Sean I like the combination. Brings a different perspective to your tank. 

The thing is, I bet it looks even better in person. It's difficult to capture the colors in a photo.

And Burr740, I don't know exactly how this happened, but we have started some type of bulb combo comparison think tank!!

I will say this, I have studied all of these pictures closely, and it is very interesting how the blend of colors changes the presentation of the tank.


----------



## Immortal1

Greggz said:


> Burr740, I don't know exactly how this happened, but we have started some type of bulb combo comparison think tank!!


:grin2:


----------



## AquaLady86

I'm so copying your formula. Those lights are an excellent price. On my tank, I have a beamswork full spec and a dual t5 with pink gorw bulbs. I might sell the fixturs for the lights you have. 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Always amazed at how much light you have and yet very little (if any) algae. Impressed as always


Thanks man. For whatever reason, as long as the plants are healthy and I keep things clean, there's little algae to speak of.

Now, there's definitely some algae in the tank. A bit of dust here and there, especially if I dont wipe the front glass for 2-3 weeks. And any plants which happen to be struggling get algae on the old growth, bba, gsa, etc.

Also funny thing, whenever I uproot/replant the Lobelia, which is about every 4-6 weeks, for the first week or so the bottom leaves get some gsa or bba (hard to tell, just sorta darkish speckles) Sometimes pretty bad, but then it goes away after a couple of weeks. I used to freak out until I realized the plant could take care of itself.



Greggz said:


> Burr I like the way you measured it with the different combinations/numbers of bulbs. I should have taken the time to do that while I had the meter on hand. It looks like we are pretty close to the same PAR with all six bulbs on. You must be around 200 at the surface. And your other readings give me some idea of where I am with 2 or 4 bulbs running.
> 
> Do you run all six bulbs for the entire photo period? And if so, how long are the lights on?


Greggz, the light has two switches, one for the outer 4, and one for the inner 2.....but only one power cord.

So yeah it goes from nothing to full blast, then back to nothing. Comes on at noon, goes off at 8:30. 

Coming on at noon, there's a few hours of ambient light for the livestock to wake up. So that's good, I suppose.

Ive been meaning to get in there and wire in a second power cord so two can come on then four, or vice versa, but I just havent done it yet. Im not much of an electrician but I have instructions how to do it (assuming it'll work) 

Mostly laziness, but also I dont have a spare light in case something screws up. So Im a little apprehensive to try it, but...mostly laziness.

Also have two LED strip lights attached to the edges of the T5 for night viewing. They light up the tank enough to see and enjoy it, while not even registering on the PAR meter (in the water). 

Had to brighten the pic up a little, this is pretty close to how it looks in person. Also there's a lot of shimmer which is pretty cool.










@Sean W. that's a pretty good look my friend



Greggz said:


> And Burr740, I don't know exactly how this happened, but we have started some type of bulb combo comparison think tank!!


Fine by me because I love talking bulbs!


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> @Sean W. that's a pretty good look my friend
> 
> 
> 
> Fine by me because I love talking lights!


Yea! My girlfriend was holding the fixture while I was replacing the 6500k bulb with the True Lumen Flora, I was telling her I give it a 5% chance that I will like it. I was happily surprised. I will be keeping this combo. Wave Point Color Wave and the True Lumen Flora, my favorite combo so far!

If you told me a couple years ago that I would like a purple bulb and red bulb I would have laughed in your face. on my 5ft tank a couple years ago that I had with a quad 4ft fixture, I used all 6500k bulbs. Trying different color bulbs didnt even occur to me.


----------



## kyle3

opwindend!


----------



## burr740

kyle3 said:


> opwindend!


Bedankt!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Man if the electricity bill wasn't $200 a month (SoCal prices rip) already i think i would of switched to t5 LOL. the bulb combo just looks so good


----------



## Sean W.

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Man if the electricity bill wasn't $200 a month (SoCal prices rip) already i think i would of switched to t5 LOL. the bulb combo just looks so good


You gotta apply for D Care man! Or switch to solar. My GF is the manager of a solar company. If you own your house, she can hook you up!


----------



## burr740

*More Pantanal Chronicles:*


The obvious question to me is, does it need more micros/Fe than Im giving it?

So a couple weeks ago I decided to bump micros/Fe up 50% and see what happened.(dosing 15 ml instead of the usual 10). 

This put the levels at .0225 csmb, and .03 ppm DTPA Fe, 3x week.

Shortly after the second dose, Rotalla wallichii, Pogosteman kimberly and Pogosteman erectus all stunted. After a week of the higher dose, did an 80% water change and went back to the normal level.


Here's some pics, its been another week at the normal dose.

Rotala wallichii stunting, then un-stunting. Notice the narrow green portion of the stem near the top. That was the stunting.












Better profile view from the end













Pogostemans kimberly and erectus. These were all perfect to begin with.

Several tops shriveled up and new side shoots started to emerge. It's like the plant abandons the damaged part and decides to start over - typical "unhappy" behavior.






















The Pantanal didnt like it much either. In the pic above, you can barely notice the tips of two tallest stems on the right have little brown knots where the new growth comes out. Those tops are toast. Might as well cut them off now and let it start over with new shoots.

None of this surprised me because Ive seen this movie many times before. I'll just top the stunted Pogos and the new stems should come in good.

It was worth a shot though...


----------



## sohankpatel

What is your water hardness? Pantanal died for me, and someone told me it was because it liked soft water.
How do you keep GSA off of your AR mini?, nothing else in my tank has it, but that plant is a frickin magnet for GSA.
How does pogostemon kimberly grow for you? It may be the plant that I am looking for. What is it's color like? Is it a more purple, or bright red plant?


----------



## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> What is your water hardness? Pantanal died for me, and someone told me it was because it liked soft water.
> How do you keep GSA off of your AR mini?, nothing else in my tank has it, but that plant is a frickin magnet for GSA.
> How does pogostemon kimberly grow for you? It may be the plant that I am looking for. What is it's color like? Is it a more purple, or bright red plant?


KH is ~ 5.5

The same thing that keeps every other algae away in a high-tech tank applies to GSA - healthy plants and clean conditions.

Pogosteman kimberly in the 50 gal. 










In the 120 it's a deeper, more vibrant color (and bigger) due to the light. Generally a drama free plant


----------



## PEdwards

Are you still adding Osmocote? I've been wondering if your success with low traces has to do with traces provided by the Osmocote.


----------



## DMtankd

50% increase all at once is a non-trivial change. Wonder what would happen if you increased traces by 5-10% per week for a few weeks until you got to a net 50% increase. Maybe with the stunting you're seeing something like the stem plant equivalent of crypt melt?


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Are you still adding Osmocote? I've been wondering if your success with low traces has to do with traces provided by the Osmocote.


I thought that too at one point. Also that it might be causing the apparent "toxicity" issues....so I went a year and a half in the old 75 without any.


Nowadays I push individual balls around certain things, one under each Downoi, AR mini, the Lagenandra has a few. Anything that is struggling might get a couple. Again this is * individual balls,* not gel-caps full.

The 50 gal has virtually none. The 20L where I grow mostly foreground and midground stuff has a little.

But no, the micro thing is nothing to do with Osmocote. Great observation though! 


It's something to do with the inert sand substrate vs high CEC like Aquasoil. What exactly, Im not sure. 

I said this in another thread on the subject. Think it bears repeating here



> ** DISCLAIMER:: Keep in mind my substrate is inert sand. Ive not seen anyone with a high CEC substrate do well long term with such low levels. Although there's usually a honeymoon period of a couple of weeks where things improve, but it soon becomes too little.
> 
> So if you're rolling with Aquasoil, dirt, safety-sorb, eco-complete, etc. For whatever reason, these levels probably wont be enough.
> 
> I am in no way saying everyone's problem is "micro-tox" or whatever, or trying to push the routine on others. This is just what happens in my tanks (4 high-techs and they all behave the same)






DMtankd said:


> 50% increase all at once is a non-trivial change. Wonder what would happen if you increased traces by 5-10% per week for a few weeks until you got to a net 50% increase. Maybe with the stunting you're seeing something like the stem plant equivalent of crypt melt?


That's a very good point, and could be. Ive seen many times things sorta go into "shock" after a significant change in nutrient levels. Then adapt and be fine.

However, after experiencing these same reactions many, many times before, I wasnt willing to risk further damage when I already knew what was to come.

A gradual increase would've probably been better, certainly a more "scientific" approach. But it was kind of a spur of the moment thing without any planning, so I just went with it.


----------



## Immortal1

** DISCLAIMER:: Keep in mind my substrate is inert sand. Ive not seen anyone with a high CEC substrate do well long term with such low levels. Although there's usually a honeymoon period of a couple of weeks where things improve, but it soon becomes too little.

So if you're rolling with Aquasoil, dirt, safety-sorb, *eco-complete*, etc. For whatever reason, these levels probably wont be enough.

Given how closely you have gotten to the perfect amount of micros in inert sand, I really "wish" there was a perfect mathematical conversion for those of us running *eco-complete*. I guess the best thing you can offer is your close observations of the changes to XX plants when the micro level gets a little to high. 

I am still amazed at how subtle changes (micros, lighting, etc.) can make a big difference. When I first started planted tanks my plants looked terrible. As my experience with my tank increased so did the quality of the plants. I don't think I have the perfect mix yet, but I am getting closer


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> I thought that too at one point. Also that it might be causing the apparent "toxicity" issues....so I went a year and a half in the old 75 without any.
> 
> 
> Nowadays I push individual balls around certain things, one under each Downoi, AR mini, the Lagenandra has a few. Anything that is struggling might get a couple. Again this is * individual balls,* not gel-caps full.
> 
> The 50 gal has virtually none. The 20L where I grow mostly foreground and midground stuff has a little.
> 
> But no, the micro thing is nothing to do with Osmocote. Great observation though!
> 
> 
> It's something to do with the inert sand substrate vs high CEC like Aquasoil. What exactly, Im not sure.



Consider this; most trace elements are transitional metals (in the middle of the periodic table) and have a positive charge when in ionic form (Fe +2/+3, Mn +2/+2, Co +/+2, Ni +2/+2, and Zn +2. If a substrate has an affinity for adsorbing cations then it's likely to pull traces out of the water. I wouldn't say that's the whole story though, as plants can get to traces in the rooting zone. If they're *not* getting to the rooting zone then it might be a different story as different mechanisms will mediate release/availability/solubility.

That doesn't happen in inert substrates....but it will in inert substrates with organic matter in it.

<edit, forgot to add this anecdote>

I've only seen this in one tank, but it bears mentioning as it's an indicator of crazy biogeochemical stuff going on in the substrate. 75 gallon tank, ADA Power Sand Special and 5 inches of Aquasoil over that (the back of the tank). After a few months a distinct rust band formed 2-3 inches or so below the substrate surface. That band clearly indicated the line between aerobic and anaerobic zones (aerobic on top). The iron was in 2+ form below and diffused up toward the surface then switched to 3+ form when it hit an area with enough oxygen to oxidize it. At that point the roots could get at it as easy as they pleased with the help of a little acid release. I'm sure the same thing was happening with Mn as they behave similarly in aquatic soils.

When trace element metals lose their chelator and end up by themselves in the water column, they're pretty easily oxidized into a higher + state which may create a higher affinity for binding to materials with a negative surface charge. One could assume then that higher doses of traces are needed to overcome a binding effect not present in materials with no surface charge or a positive surface charge. </edit>

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> I am still amazed at how subtle changes (micros, lighting, etc.) can make a big difference. When I first started planted tanks my plants looked terrible. As my experience with my tank increased so did the quality of the plants. I don't think I have the perfect mix yet, but I am getting closer


Funny how that works, eh?


Always be on guard for the Algae Monster! No matter how much experience one may have it's always there waiting in the recesses of the substrate to rear its ugly head and drive you to the brink.

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Consider this; most trace elements are transitional metals (in the middle of the periodic table) and have a positive charge when in ionic form (Fe +2/+3, Mn +2/+2, Co +/+2, Ni +2/+2, and Zn +2. If a substrate has an affinity for adsorbing cations then it's likely to pull traces out of the water. I wouldn't say that's the whole story though, as plants can get to traces in the rooting zone. If they're *not* getting to the rooting zone then it might be a different story as different mechanisms will mediate release/availability/solubility.
> 
> That doesn't happen in inert substrates....but it will in inert substrates with organic matter in it.
> 
> <edit, forgot to add this anecdote>
> 
> I've only seen this in one tank, but it bears mentioning as it's an indicator of crazy biogeochemical stuff going on in the substrate. 75 gallon tank, ADA Power Sand Special and 5 inches of Aquasoil over that (the back of the tank). After a few months a distinct rust band formed 2-3 inches or so below the substrate surface. That band clearly indicated the line between aerobic and anaerobic zones (aerobic on top). The iron was in 2+ form below and diffused up toward the surface then switched to 3+ form when it hit an area with enough oxygen to oxidize it. At that point the roots could get at it as easy as they pleased with the help of a little acid release. I'm sure the same thing was happening with Mn as they behave similarly in aquatic soils.
> 
> When trace element metals lose their chelator and end up by themselves in the water column, they're pretty easily oxidized into a higher + state which may create a higher affinity for binding to materials with a negative surface charge. One could assume then that higher doses of traces are needed to overcome a binding effect not present in materials with no surface charge or a positive surface charge. </edit>


Fascinating stuff, Phil. Thank you!

That probably explains why my tank doesnt do well with very high P04 levels either, due to binding or precipitation or whatever. 

My understanding of chemistry is rudimentary at best, so bear with me if I dont put things in the right terms exactly.

I can induce a brutal, and rapid Fe deficiency dosing say 2.5 -3 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week. And here's the kicker, adding more Fe/micros doesnt solve the problem, because other toxicity symptoms show up first. 

As long as PO4 dosing stays in the .5 - 1 ppm range, everything is groovy.

Another thing Ive wondered about, maybe you can shed some light. What is the end result when PO4 combines with trace metals? Could this end result be a toxic compound? A compound which might be easily ab/adsorbed in a high cec sub, but just stays loose in the water column in mine?

That might explain why my tanks absolutely do not like higher levels of micros. Not because the micros themselves are toxic, but rather due to a wonky by-product?

Because I mean, study after study shows that the levels of micros Im working with are a LONG way from reaching toxic levels. Yet here we are.

Does any of that sound logical to you?


----------



## sohankpatel

burr740 said:


> Fascinating stuff, Phil. Thank you!
> 
> That probably explains why my tank doesnt do well with very high P04 levels either, due to binding or precipitation or whatever.
> 
> My understanding of chemistry is rudimentary at best, so bear with me if I dont put things in the right terms exactly.
> 
> I can induce a brutal, and rapid Fe deficiency dosing say 2.5 -3 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week. And here's the kicker, adding more Fe/micros doesnt solve the problem, because other toxicity symptoms show up first.
> 
> As long as PO4 dosing stays in the .5 - 1 ppm range, everything is groovy.


Really? You can't go above 1ppm for po4? I dose into the 7ppm range to help combat algae, and I see nothing except a little bit of GSA. I never see iron deficiency either with those levels. Goes to show how things vary from tank to tank.


----------



## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> Really? You can't go above 1ppm for po4? I dose into the 7ppm range to help combat algae, and I see nothing except a little bit of GSA. I never see iron deficiency either with those levels. Goes to show how things vary from tank to tank.


Might be why your pantanal died. 

1 ppm 3x week is not a hard ceiling for me. But bad things start happening around 2.5-3 ppm. Again, this is somehow related to uber low micros and inert substrate.

Plants dont need near that much in the first place. If a tank requires more than say, EI levels, it's because the PO4 is overcoming something else. Not because the plants are eating it all up.

But you know, who cares why something works? If it works, it works.

Dennis Wong ( @Xiaozhuang ) doses almost complete opposite of what I do. Very low N, something like 5-10 ppm PO4, and very high traces/Fe, not sure the exact amount but it's more than EI.

Blows my mind! He also uses a lot of dirt based substrates capped with sand or something, if Im not mistaken.

Point is, results are all that matters, not the whys or hows of it. 

Personally I dont even care about all this chemistry and the particulars of everything. But Im forced to learn more about it, out of necessity.

I'd be straight just knowing how much of what to dump in there so I can get on with the fun stuff like pruning and scaping!


----------



## Immortal1

"I'd be straight just knowing how much of what to dump in there so I can get on with the fun stuff like pruning and scaping!"
Kinda in the same boat here. Probably why I ask you so many questions about your dosing regime. But, even though your water chemistry is close to mine your inert substraight might be the thing that changes everything. Guess thats why I have been looking more at your pictures and less at the words (ok, so THATS what a healthy ______ is supposed to look like).


----------



## sohankpatel

burr740 said:


> Plants dont need near that much in the first place. If a tank requires more than say, EI levels, it's because the PO4 is overcoming something else.


Overcoming something like? I didn't understand, sorry.


----------



## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> Overcoming something like? I didn't understand, sorry.


Precipitating with Fe or other metals, getting sucked in by the substrate, just there to kill algae as in your case, that sort of thing is what I meant. That it's doing something else besides just feeding plants, beneficial or otherwise.

Take Dennis Wong's tank for example. His plants are not eating 25 ppm of PO4 every week, but the high concentration is doing something beneficial, obviously.


----------



## burr740




----------



## Immortal1

Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.


----------



## Xiaozhuang

burr740 said:


> Might be why your pantanal died.
> 
> 1 ppm 3x week is not a hard ceiling for me. But bad things start happening around 2.5-3 ppm. Again, this is somehow related to uber low micros and inert substrate.
> 
> Plants dont need near that much in the first place. If a tank requires more than say, EI levels, it's because the PO4 is overcoming something else. Not because the plants are eating it all up.
> 
> But you know, who cares why something works? If it works, it works.
> 
> Dennis Wong ( @*Xiaozhuang* ) doses almost complete opposite of what I do. Very low N, something like 5-10 ppm PO4, and very high traces/Fe, not sure the exact amount but it's more than EI.
> 
> Blows my mind! He also uses a lot of dirt based substrates capped with sand or something, if Im not mistaken.
> 
> Point is, results are all that matters, not the whys or hows of it.
> 
> Personally I dont even care about all this chemistry and the particulars of everything. But Im forced to learn more about it, out of necessity.
> 
> I'd be straight just knowing how much of what to dump in there so I can get on with the fun stuff like pruning and scaping!


I think the most important point demonstrated in this thread is the ability to adjust variables, then interpret plant reaction to those changes to see if increasing or decreasing parameters delivers better results ... if more people followed this methodology (which takes more effort) than just following fixed ratios recommendations on the net, many problems can be solved, tanks will be more optimized on an individual basis. And the thing is we don't really need to be a chemistry/biologist wizard to do this ; we just have to develop sensitivity to our plant health. 

Due to the complexities of water chemistry interactions, choice of substrate, plant uptake etc... I think far too many hobbyists expect tanks to function in a similar manner whereas they can be quite different. And this applies to things like algae as well. As much as I'm a fan of Barr; and some principles can be universalized more than others..... Far too many people find success with one method, and try to bend others to the one method that did work for them. I think we should generally encourage more experimentation with observation, and also acceptance that there are many routes to success


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> Fascinating stuff, Phil. Thank you!
> 
> That probably explains why my tank doesnt do well with very high P04 levels either, due to binding or precipitation or whatever.
> 
> My understanding of chemistry is rudimentary at best, so bear with me if I dont put things in the right terms exactly.
> 
> I can induce a brutal, and rapid Fe deficiency dosing say 2.5 -3 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week. And here's the kicker, adding more Fe/micros doesnt solve the problem, because other toxicity symptoms show up first.
> 
> As long as PO4 dosing stays in the .5 - 1 ppm range, everything is groovy.
> 
> Another thing Ive wondered about, maybe you can shed some light. What is the end result when PO4 combines with trace metals? Could this end result be a toxic compound? A compound which might be easily ab/adsorbed in a high cec sub, but just stays loose in the water column in mine?
> 
> That might explain why my tanks absolutely do not like higher levels of micros. Not because the micros themselves are toxic, but rather due to a wonky by-product?
> 
> Because I mean, study after study shows that the levels of micros Im working with are a LONG way from reaching toxic levels. Yet here we are.
> 
> Does any of that sound logical to you?


Burrito,

That's an interesting phenomenon and one that I hadn't really heard of before. I'm going to go off on a tangent before getting back to what you're seeing going on in your tank.

Fe 3+ isn't soluble in water, that's why it's bound to EDTA. Fe 2+ IS soluble in water, but will quickly get oxidized into the 3+ form in the water column, that's why it's bound to Gluconate. I'm not sure which form is bound to DPTA. The same goes for Manganese, it's attached to a chelator in CSM, and I assume most other trace blends/solutions. 

What does this mean? First off, it means that the plants are going to get at the iron before other chemical species do due to the chelation of Fe. Secondly, if an Fe breaks free of its chelator and goes free into the water column then it's going to hit the 3+ oxidation state and settle out of the water. 

Twist your pickle time: Yes, it's possible for PO4 3- and Fe 3+ to bind together into FePO4, but we have to consider overall concentrations of each in the system. Burr, in your tank you've got what most would consider low concentrations of both. Even though the water's mixing pretty well, the probability of significant amounts of FePO4 formation is fairly low in my opinion. I'm not saying it's impossible, only improbable on any significant scale. I'd have to find the reaction kinetics under different conditions to give any sort of certain answer.

My mental train is going in the direction of intermittent flushes of greater amounts of nutrients in the wild. Perhaps nutrients are very low during the dry season, but as soon as it rains all sorts of stuff gets washed into the stream/river and you get a sudden increase in nutrients. Aquatic plants in general have adapted to such environmental changes, within individual species' range of tolerance.

Combining both trains of thought; increasing PO4 could potentially increase the amount of binding with Fe, causing a problematic lack of iron given how low your traces are. However, that should go away in a couple of days as the plants take up the PO4 and you continue to add traces. On top of that, the plants should be able to deal with the increased PO4.

**Caveat** I'm an aquatic plant ecologist and biogeochemist, not an aquatic plant biologist or biochemist so I have to admit limitation of knowledge regarding toxicity, most biochemical reactions not gone over in general plant physiology and the limited scope of my thesis regarding nutrient uptake rather than environmental factors affecting availability. Also, the nutrient flush idea is based solely on my experience with N. American plants and envrionments, not those of other regions. 

So what the $$&*(^#$*&#@^ goes on in your tank when you jack the PO4 up? Are you 100% positive it's toxicity? Have one of the intelligentsia over on the other forum confirmed it's toxicity? Clearly there's something going on, I don't doubt your word. The persistence of problems after the higher dose have me puzzled. FePO4 isn't terribly toxic in aquatic environments. In fact, many aquatic plants have a sheathe of FePO4, among other things, on their roots to help provide nutrients and guard against toxins. I would hesitate to say that possible presence of FePO4 or MnPO4 is causing an issue. 

You said something about "inducing a brutal and rapid" Fe deficiency by adding more PO4. Consider this; you've got your system in a state of (knife's edge) equilibrium and it's doing well as long as nothing changes. I mean, I think you're running a very very narrow line with this tank as far as the ecosystem goes. If 1-2 ppm of extra PO4 causes such extreme and rapid issues after one dose you're a sneeze away from a crash, IMO. Then again, you're also "doing it right". 

Here are my thoughts based on the above context; with all the light you've got there's the potential for more growth if more nutrients are added. I'm going to guess that you've found that sweet spot between sustaining growth and limiting growth due to nutrient limitation. Perhaps you're already limiting growth relative to what your system can sustain, by limiting traces. 0.5 - 1.0 ppm with your lighting and CO2 is pretty low. I wouldn't be surprised if the plants sucked up the extra quickly. By adding that extra PO4 it's possibly that you stimulate growth enough that the plants suddenly take up all the available traces and are wanting more...but there isn't any so they start scavenging themselves, etc. Even if you go back to your previous PO4 dose, the plants still have taken up some extra relative to what they had before and can use that for a couple days to try to fuel increased growth stimulated by the initial flood. 

Thinking on it a bit more, didn't you say you keep NO3 at about 6ppm? That would put your NO3 to PO4 somewhere in the 5:1 to 10:1 NO3O4 ratio that seems to be golden. BUT, again, those are pretty low numbers given the light you've got. 

All that makes me think that your whole system is, again, right on the cusp of having limited growth relative to light input due to low nutrients, without having deficiencies. Screwing with that uber fine balance could royally [censored][censored][censored][censored] your system over. It's the same concept of reefers running Ultra Low Nutrient Systems; it works until some little thing upsets the delicate balance and the whole system goes to hell. 

What do your symptoms look like after the slug of extra PO4? Do they look like deficiencies? That would be my first guess based on the reasoning above. I could be wrong though; a plant biochemist would be able to speak more cogently on this topic than I, the humble ecologist taking SWAGs.

Cheers,
Phil

Bump:


Immortal1 said:


> Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.


Burr must be finger scraping good.


----------



## Dempsey

I had pantanal growing great in my tank for a while before the "crash"(neglect). I need to give it a try again. Let me know if you will be selling any or where you got yours.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> What do your symptoms look like after the slug of extra PO4? Do they look like deficiencies? That would be my first guess based on the reasoning above.


First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain all that and share your thoughts on the subject. I really appreciate it!

You mentioned me having low CO2. That's not really the case. PH has dropped a full point by the time lights come on. Couple hours later it's down close to 1.3, where it remains for the duration. 

I have also ran it a couple tenths higher for months at a time. But I feel like this level should be plenty. Plants are pearling within a couple hours, and by the end of the photo period it looks like an upside down monsoon in there.

I agree with the logic that nutrients are somehow limited, especially micros/Fe, and that kicking up the PO4 causes plants to need more of the other stuff, hence the deficiency symptoms.

But being logical is where it stops. If you recall, I pointed out that adding more micros/Fe fails to solve the issue, because other <apparent> toxicity symptoms show up. 

So if was just a matter of creating a new deficiency, adding more of the other should help. However, it does not.

As to the quoted part; What happens is a rapid paling of new growth, less than a week usually, followed by a downright melt of said growth if i let it go on.. 

And it's not just the sensitive species either. Normally tough plants like Blyxa japonica, Downoi and S repens suddenly become afflicted as well. 


*What I think I know:*

Things here are entirely dependent on what's in the water column, aside from the stray Osmocote+ ball here and there.

There's no CEC drawing micros out of the water, or anything else.

What this means is I have to nail the amounts and ratios of everything because there's no wiggle room.

Also means that certain nutrients....cannot simply be "larded on" and forgot about......Contrary to a few popular opinions.

So yeah it's a delicate balance. I feel like Im fairly close to having it nailed though. Because 90% of everything I try to grow does well, 90% of the time. 

That wasnt always the case. It's been a long and arduous road getting to this point. At the same time it's been a very fun road too!

These days it's all about getting that other 10%. That is what confounds me now. So I just keep tweaking and trying various things to see what works and what doesnt.

*What I've also learned*, shocking to many folks including myself, is that plants need very little in the way of micros/Fe to thrive. Not merely to survive, but thrive.

That's not to say most tanks dont need more to operate, a lot more in some cases, but the plants themselves need very little.

Vin's Rotala Kill Tank , where he mirrored my dosing routine with plain gravel backs this up as well. 

Also noteworthy is he recently applied the same dosing to his  180 gal Dutch Tank. which has ADA Aquasoil. Things were OK for about a month, but then it went south as deficiencies popped up. 


Phil, thanks once again for sharing your thoughts here. I'll have to reread all that to get a better understanding of some things. But it's already helped me understand more what happens to chelates and such.

It may not have solved anything, but it explains a lot of my "what ifs" which is just as good. Knowing what something isnt takes one closer to what it is!


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Who says aquatic life can't be pets? Looks to me like Burr has a new friend.


It's funny, when I feed the fish there's probably some traces of food left on my finger. Amanos have long antennae, whatever you call it, two or three inches long.

After feeding the fish, I can ease my hand up close to the shrimp, stopping just short of the antennae to give it a chance to sense what's in front of it.

Then using it's antennae, it'll tap my finger a few times and then hop aboard and start picking around.



Dempsey said:


> I had pantanal growing great in my tank for a while before the "crash"(neglect). I need to give it a try again. Let me know if you will be selling any or where you got yours.


So far I havent grown any that's fit for the sale block, and Im not holding my breath for this batch. 

Try user Bartohog, or his son sjb1987. Those guys usually have some for sale.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


>


Is that an Amano? Looks like a few of the grandpa's I got. They sure are neat. Thinking of setting up a shrimp tank in my 40B. Its just an Algae farm anyways....

Bump: Oh I see it is.. Nvm I should read I guess.


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain all that and share your thoughts on the subject. I really appreciate it!
> 
> You mentioned me having low CO2. That's not really the case. PH has dropped a full point by the time lights come on. Couple hours later it's down close to 1.3, where it remains for the duration.
> 
> But being logical is where it stops. If you recall, I pointed out that adding more micros/Fe fails to solve the issue, because other <apparent> toxicity symptoms show up.
> 
> So if was just a matter of creating a new deficiency, adding more of the other should help. However, it does not.
> 
> As to the quoted part; What happens is a rapid paling of new growth, less than a week usually, followed by a downright melt of said growth if i let it go on..
> 
> And it's not just the sensitive species either. Normally tough plants like Blyxa japonica, Downoi and S repens suddenly become afflicted as well.
> 
> 
> *What I think I know:*
> 
> Things here are entirely dependent on what's in the water column, aside from the stray Osmocote+ ball here and there.
> 
> *What this means is I have to nail the amounts and ratios of everything because there's no wiggle room.
> 
> Also means that certain nutrients....cannot simply be "larded on" and forgot about......Contrary to a few popular opinions*.
> 
> *So yeah it's a delicate balance*.
> 
> That's not to say most tanks dont need more to operate, a lot more in some cases, but the plants themselves need very little.
> 
> Vin's Rotala Kill Tank , where he mirrored my dosing routine with plain gravel backs this up as well.
> 
> Also noteworthy is he recently applied the same dosing to his  180 gal Dutch Tank. which has ADA Aquasoil. Things were OK for about a month, but then it went south as deficiencies popped up.


I'm sorry, I wasn't clear, I did ramble a lot up there. I meant that you've got a lot of light and a plenty of CO2. I guess the TL: DR of all my rambling above was you've hit the delicate balance of relatively low nutrients to the high light/CO2 input right on the head for your system. But, like you just said, there's no wiggle room. That's what I meant by being on the knife's edge as far as system balance is concerned. You've got things soooooooo tightly dialed in that small changes can have profound effects. That's what lead me to the deficiency thing and that whole train of thought vs there being a toxicity issue.

All that being said, it very clearly works for you and your system. At this point I'm just throwing out ideas and educated guesses to see if something clicks.

Those symptoms are strange. I can't say I've ever encountered anything like that so I really can't speak to the cause.

I love Vin's thread, it's taught me a lot about Lythracae that I didn't know. Have you asked about potential toxicity issues with higher P dosing over there? I'm sure there's someone with more qualification to speak to toxicity there than I can. 

I think at this point, unless we want to get into more detail about substrates and various environmental factors affecting nutrient availability, we've kind of reached the limit of my knowledge/experience. Anything that goes into nutrients and toxicities within the plant would need a botanist or biochemist to discuss. My guess is that would be Tom or Vin. I have no idea what Vin does, but he sounds like he used to do plant science. I could be totally wrong though. LOL 

Who's larding nutrients on? I promise I've cut way back!!! 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> ....the deficiency thing and that whole train of thought vs there being a toxicity issue.


That's the most logical explanation, I agree.

But then why doesnt adding more of the newly deficient compound fix the issue?

(recall I mentioned at this point adding more Fe/micros doesnt fix the Fe deficiency, but triggers other, apparent toxicity issues)

The logical answer the second question would be that the next nutrient in short supply now becomes deficient, hence the new symptoms. Think Liebig's barrel

And such may be the case. But the response is usually too fast (matter of days) and too intense to be a simple deficiency. In my mind at least.

But rather than start claiming X amount of this or that is "toxic". Im more interested the why. Why does this happen with such apparently benign dosing?

Hence my questions to you about different compounds binding and all that.

And once again I really appreciate your input! 




PEdwards said:


> I love Vin's thread, it's taught me a lot about Lythracae that I didn't know. Have you asked about potential toxicity issues with higher P dosing over there? I'm sure there's someone with more qualification to speak to toxicity there than I can.


Nobody over there has a clue. Tom refuses to even accept the possibility (of micro-tox). Though I really cant blame him. If Id never seen it first hand I probably wouldnt believe it myself.

Vin and have been conversing offline for a couple of years now, frequently. He's as bumfuzzled as anyone why "toxicity" happens for some and not to others, or why my tanks react the way they do.

But I think we're all starting to realize it has a lot to do with inert sub vs a high cec. The exact particulars being still somewhat of a mystery.

I expect him to chime in here pretty soon (when he gets back from the beach!  )



PEdwards said:


> Who's larding nutrients on? I promise I've cut way back!!!


Haha, that comment was directed at the hardcore EI crowd, whose basic philosophy is to simply lard on the nutrients, and any problem after that has to be poor CO2.

Seems like a great clique to be in though. I wish I was fortunate enough to believe the same thing!


----------



## burr740

Pic Dump


No problems here, Rotala indica screamin Long hair Dont care!

(was recently told by Cavan that Ammania bonsai is erroneous. Henceforth Im referring to this plant by it's proper name True Rotala indica)











New shoots coming on the Pogo kimberly, need to go ahead and cut the bad tops off.











Rotala wallichii continues to un-stunt :knocksonwood:





























Rotala macranda 'variegated'

These were not great to begin with but definitely took a hit. Leaf margins curled under, narrow and distorted, color all over the place










Here's some in the 50 gal. When things are good it does fairly well.


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> Tom refuses to even accept the possibility. Though I really cant blame him. If Id never seen it first hand I probably wouldnt believe it myself.


Oh, like all the claims he makes backed up only by pictures? I can see how you being public about doing uber low nutrients and asking why adding more causes issues in your tanks when his fame was built on "larding it on" could be an issue. You're just a regular Joe plant keeper looking for answers. Too bad some folks won't give you the time of day.

You should come to the AGA con at the end of the month.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Oh, like all the claims he makes backed up only by pictures? I can see how you being public about doing uber low nutrients and asking why adding more causes issues in your tanks when his fame was built on "larding it on" could be an issue. You're just a regular Joe plant keeper looking for answers. Too bad some folks won't give you the time of day.


Well, it's not exactly like that. I have a journal over there too, and have/do converse with him often in various threads on the subject.

He's a little more open to the possibility these days than say two years ago. Still doesnt think it's micro related. But at least is beginning to acknowledge that everyone experiencing similar issues isnt just a noob who doesnt understand co2.

He had this to say earlier today, as a matter of fact



> That's such super touchy trace dosing. I'd suck if my tanks operated like that.
> 
> In answer to an observation: the Garage tanks I've started dosing traces.
> They have historically done well or a little better with... when I did add them haphazardly.
> 
> The main issue I have is when you add more of one potentially limiting factor, you place more demand on something else, Liebig's law predicts this.
> So after I do this for say 4 weeks, I'll add some KNO3, KH2PO4 as well.
> 
> I've pondered Urea at about 0.5ppm.
> 
> The 4th option is to add more fresh ADA AS.
> 
> The 4th option is the most consistent and easiest also.
> 
> P. kimberly and Red pant, crap, those are insane weeds.
> Something is up with that pesky tap.
> 
> Did you ever try RO or a blend?
> 
> Not long term, but just a few weeks to see?
> 
> On the AR vari, the leaves are still slightly wavy in the garage tanks. This is under high light, about what you have.
> I have not tried it under lower light yet. Still, normal AR mini looks fairly different in those garage tanks, vs the inside tanks. The AR vari, not so much.
> 
> I think it might be a mini form of vari, but then again, I do not know what the normal type looks like for the AR vari either...........not much to compare to. The new side shoots always look nice on all AR varieties near as I can tell.
> 
> You got pesky tap, about all I can say. Try the RO and see.
> Then there's ADA AS.


(the seemingly unrelated stuff about AR leaves and his garage tanks is sort of on another subject previously discussed elsewhere)

He thinks its an issue with my tap water. And he may very well be right. Although I cant find any likely suspects in the water report, or from the Hanna test results.

Main reason why I dont think it's tap related is because everything is just too good...when it's good. 

The ONLY reason I tried more micros 3 weeks ago is to see if it would jump start the pantanal.




PEdwards said:


> You should come to the AGA con at the end of the month.



Where is it? I havent read this quarter's publication yet.


----------



## PEdwards

Denver! Aquatic Gardeners Association Convention


----------



## burr740

In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:










Woke up sweating about 5 AM, and noticed it was unusually hot in the house. Hmm...

Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out. It'll be at least next week sometime before I can get a new one installed..

So mid morning I go to Lowes and buy a small window unit for the back part of the house, where the bedrooms are. Hoping to get by with just that.

By early evening...I accept the fact that one little unit isnt going to cut it because it's 85 freakin degrees in the living room.

So off I go to buy another one to use in the front part of the house, nearby to the tank.

By this time also, the aquarium water feels distinctly warmer than usual, so I tossed in a thermometer to see where it's at. (which I actually thought was 82 until I took the picture and noticed the green ends at 84 and not 80, lol)

I never check the temp or use heaters. The house stays mid to low 70s year round and I dont worry about it.

Currently have a fan blowing across the surface, and the house is finally cooling down....some. So Im hoping this will be adequate until I get a new unit installed next week sometime.

The fish seem fine, but I dont think the Amano shrimp like it much. Ive only caught a glimpse of one all day, usually they're scurrying around all over the place.

Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.

Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting

Guess I should just be glad it happened now instead of mid-August. :icon_eek:

Damn...


----------



## clownplanted

burr740 said:


> In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Woke up sweating about 5 AM, and noticed it was unusually hot in the house. Hmm...
> 
> Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out. It'll be at least next week sometime before I can get a new one installed..
> 
> So mid morning I go to Lowes and buy a small window unit for the back part of the house, where the bedrooms are. Hoping to get by with just that.
> 
> By early evening...I accept the fact that one little unit isnt going to cut it because it's 85 freakin degrees in the living room.
> 
> So off I go to buy another one to use in the front part of the house, nearby to the tank.
> 
> By this time also, the aquarium water feels distinctly warmer than usual, so I tossed in a thermometer to see where it's at. (which I actually thought was 82 until I took the picture and noticed the green ends at 84 and not 80, lol)
> 
> I never check the temp or use heaters. The house stays mid to low 70s year round and I dont worry about it.
> 
> Currently have a fan blowing across the surface, and the house is finally cooling down....some. So Im hoping this will be adequate until I get a new unit installed next week sometime.
> 
> The fish seem fine, but I dont think the Amano shrimp like it much. Ive only caught a glimpse of one all day, usually they're scurrying around all over the place.
> 
> Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.
> 
> Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting
> 
> Guess I should just be glad it happened now instead of mid-August. :icon_eek:
> 
> Damn...




Sorry to hear about the heat issue. Think plants pearl less in warmer water. Also less co2 will be in the water at warmer temperature. Hope all is ok bud. Hang in there


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Doc7

Good luck I hope all works out well for your house and inhabitants as well as the tank!


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> Long story short, my central unit is toast. It was pretty old and the compressor finally crapped out.


Wow... no AC in Alabama. That sucks. Better start selling off some stems to pay for it :grin2:


----------



## Greggz

Burr740 sorry to hear about that. I think you are right about it being better now than in the prime of the summer. 

At 86* I would guess you are at the upper end of when things could go downhill quickly. Hopefully it's just a quick blip on the radar and everything stays stable for you.


----------



## PEdwards

Oh man, I'm sorry to hear this. I hope things get resolved soon!


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> In other news, the tank is 86 degrees right now! :icon_eek:
> 
> Kinda worried tbh, hoping they'll be OK.
> 
> Another thing is the tank isnt pearling as much as usual, half as much maybe. Which I found to be interesting.


Better fill ice cube trays with some "Prime" water and cool her down.


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys! The living room is 74 degrees this morning, tank is 75. So everything should be fine in the meantime.

Im not sure how much having a fan blowing across the tank helped the temp, but it sure did evaporate some water. 

The level dropped almost 3/4" in about 14 hours. That's three days worth under normal circumstances.



Ben Belton said:


> Wow... no AC in Alabama. That sucks.


A malevolent entity roams the deep south, it goes by the name.... Humidity

It is a vile disgusting creature, the embodiment of evil itself, and no man woman or child is safe from it's wrath.


----------



## Immortal1

Sorry to hear about the A/C unit - better now than August for sure. As for fans on water, I was pretty successful using that method last summer to keep the outdoor test tanks cool. As you noted - you do get alot of evaporation!


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Sorry to hear about the A/C unit - better now than August for sure. As for fans on water, I was pretty successful using that method last summer to keep the outdoor test tanks cool. As you noted - you do get alot of evaporation!


That interesting. When things are back to normal I may try experimenting (with a smaller fan) to see if it drops the temperature any, and if so, whether running it a couple degrees cooler has any positive affect


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> That interesting. When things are back to normal I may try experimenting (with a smaller fan) to see if it drops the temperature any, and if so, whether running it a couple degrees cooler has any positive affect


That's very Burr740 of you.......and I might add a little mad scientist as well!!

But you know I mean that in only the most positive way. My wife's beginning to think I am one as well........but with her the emphasis is on the "mad" part!:grin2:


----------



## fablau

Sorry about that Burr... are those temperatures normal for you area at this time of the year? It sounds hot to me for April...


----------



## sdwindansea

You may try filling some plastic bottles about 3/4 full of distilled water. Place them in the freezer and then you can float one in the tank, rotating them as needed. This should help bring the temp down. Good luck!


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Sorry about that Burr... are those temperatures normal for you area at this time of the year? It sounds hot to me for April...


It's been highs in the lower to mid 80s, lows in the lower 60s. With no a/c the house quickly becomes hotter than outside by a few degrees.

And apparently the tank stays a degree or two warmer than the house. Like I said before, I havent used a heater or checked the tank(s) temps in a long time, for sure not in recent years doing plants.

Always just assumed if the house is mid-low 70s the tanks should be fine. And they probably are

But you remember us talking about plants always do slightly better in he 50, despite the same everything but having a tad more light?

Makes me wonder if the 120 is rolling a little hotter with all these bulbs, and perhaps that's making a difference.

Gonna look into this further once the dust has settled




sdwindansea said:


> You may try filling some plastic bottles about 3/4 full of distilled water. Place them in the freezer and then you can float one in the tank, rotating them as needed. This should help bring the temp down. Good luck!


Thats another great idea, thanks! 

It seems to be under control now with these two window units running.


----------



## ibebian

@burr740 what grit and brand Black Diamond Blasting Sand did you use? Is it fine grit by Black Beauty brand?


----------



## Saxa Tilly

I've been meaning to jump in and stir the pot a little for a few days. Haven't had the time until now. 

Kudos to burr for elevating a thread that could easily have remained about water changes and pretty pictures. Anyone can do that. But we are in new territory here. It's a good thing when internet poindexters are left scratching their collective heads. We still have a ways to go in this hobby. 

And thanks to Phil for pointing out some (now obvious) conditions in this tank. I really don't have much more to add than what Phil has already done. But here are some random thoughts where I agree with Phil. 

1. *'Knife's edge equilibrium'* is the perfect description for this tank. This state is not easy to achieve and maintain over long periods. Somehow, Burr has done it and others are following suit. I can tell you this - I could not replicate this in a high tech tank with aquasoil. The CEC of aquasoil (my guess) simply does not allow trace dosing to remain this low. I've tried it an inert gravel, fish-less tank with a fair amount of success. Ideally, I'd want a more stable system that can handle some jolts. 


2. *Trace limited.* It is very rare to have a trace limited tank by design. Some of us stumble into this territory and notice pale leaf tips. We react by saying 'oh [censored][censored][censored][censored]!' and dump a bunch of iron into the tank. At that point, something else becomes limiting. Thanks to Burr, we now know that plants need very, VERY little non-iron traces. With the exception of Mn, most of the other traces could be present in ample amounts in fish poop and tap water. It's almost a fine art to remain in a state of trace limitation. Having very high CO2, very high light, and EI levels of macros certainly helps. 

This is basically a Lowish Phosphate 'EI' tank with super low traces. Call it Conditional or Qualified EI. So when a sudden pulse of high traces are added, it feels like the plants gasp and convulse. Is this normal? I don't know, but it seems plausible. My background is in chemistry/nutrition/management, so let me offer this politically incorrect analogy: if you take a boatload of refugees and turn them loose at a Vegas buffet, do you think they'd avoid post-gorge digestive distress? 

Again, I'd want a more stable system. If I were going to pick something to limit my tank, it would be light. 


3. *Phosphate toxicity.* I do not think P is anywhere near toxic at these levels. Not a chance. But this is a somewhat-low-P tank for being high tech. So, it could be next in line after iron or Mn for being limiting. Any sudden increase in P, again, makes the plants convulse and spasm. This could be the result of a sudden shift in limiting factor. Given the lowish P setting of the tank, I find it extremely unlikely that adding a little more P pushes it to toxicity or induces something else to toxicity. I just don't see that math adding up. However, I can easily see something else quickly becoming deficient after adding a slug of P. What you are interpreting as toxicity may actually be some acute deficiency. This is the problem with being nutrient limited - it's always a whack-a-mole, tail-chasing puzzle.


4. *Long game.* You could play the long game and let the plants convulse and spasm away for a few weeks and see what you learn. It takes more than a couple of days to reach a different equilibrium. You've typically course corrected rapidly, so there may be lessons waiting for you 2-4 weeks after doing something that may initially seem dumb, like increasing trace by 50%. 


5. *High CEC substrate.* A high-CEC substrate like Aquasoil combined with EI or EI Lite will give you a lot of cushion. You can still screw up - heck, just look at my tank! But it gives you forgiveness. 


6. *Other culprits.* As I mentioned over at Barr Report, your tap and substrate could still harbor some unknown nasty stuff. This cant be taken off the culprit list until you try fully reconstituted RO and/or insert aquarium gravel. 


All this information gets you, well, nowhere. Poindexter goal achieved.


----------



## fablau

*120 Gal - Dutchy Freestyle*

Good points Vin. If we take macros for granted, by increasing traces what else could be limiting then? Yes, P maybe if it is really low, but I don't think Burr had such a low P to become limiting... I talk about myself as well, I have a very similar situation in my tank with Eco Conplete, I can't dose too high traces otherwise some plants get stuck (AR and moss for example, as well as some Rotalas besides Rotoundifolia)... But at the same time, it looks like Burr's trace dosing is too low for me, so I am currently dosing 2x Burr but still not reached the right level (either still to low or already too high!)... And I don't think my P is limiting, I still can measure it with a test kit.

Anyhow, my point is, if Burr raises traces and some plants get stuck, what else could be limiting then if not P? A single trace maybe? Could that be? I have often wondered that maybe in specific situations like Burr's or my situation, a different trace mix could work better than CSM... I mean, maybe you become deficient in some element more easily that other folks, for any reason. Why not trying some other trace mix and see if that makes any difference? That's actually in my "to do list" if what I am currently doing is not going to work. Trying something different like Flourish Comprehensive, etc...


----------



## PEdwards

Saxa Tilly said:


> internet poindexters


That gave me a huge laugh! You come up with some great names for groups of people.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> .....
> 
> My background is in chemistry/nutrition/management, so let me offer this politically incorrect analogy: if you take a boatload of refugees and turn them loose at a Vegas buffet, do you think they'd avoid post-gorge digestive distress?
> 
> ....
> 
> 
> 4. *Long game.* You could play the long game and let the plants convulse and spasm away for a few weeks and see what you learn. It takes more than a couple of days to reach a different equilibrium. You've typically course corrected rapidly, so there may be lessons waiting for you 2-4 weeks after doing something that may initially seem dumb, like increasing trace by 50%.
> 
> .....
> 
> 6. *Other culprits.* As I mentioned over at Barr Report, your tap and substrate could still harbor some unknown nasty stuff. This cant be taken off the culprit list until you try fully reconstituted RO and/or insert aquarium gravel.


Vin, what a fantastic post! Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to share your thoughts here. 

And let me just take this opportunity to say there's no way to tell you how much I appreciate all you've done to help me over the past couple of years, both online and in our many conversations off, and the plants! Thanks for everything man.


*As for number 6* - Between my water report and having PM test my water with his Hanna rig, I have a pretty good idea about many things. But there are still several unknowns, like B and Zn, just to name a couple.

Clemson University offers a full water analysis for I believe $25. Couple guys on Barr Report have used it, and this will be one of my next moves just to see if there's a boogey man hiding in the bushes somewhere.

Here's a link for anyone interested - https://www.cropking.com/training-and-education/how-submit-leaf-and-water-analysis



*As to the other quoted parts* - I believe this pretty much nails what happened recently. Too much increase at once caused a few plants to freak for a minute.

Because I mean, good grief, that's not far from what I was dosing a year ago for months with good success. It's roughly the same dose you mirrored in the Kill Tank!

So I know this level did not all of a sudden become "toxic" or whatever.

Maybe a sudden change affects plants more intensely with inert substrate? Seems plausible...

I know last year when I reduced P from 2-2.5 ppm 3x, down to .5, a few plants didnt like it right away. 

For example the Opacus verde broke out in spots, and Penthorum in the in the 50 gal had a lot of old growth turn yellow within days.

My first inclination was, OK this will never be enough. But a few other species having problems at the time perked up so fast I decided to wait it out.

3-4 weeks later the Penthorum was fine again, and the spots stopped coming on the sword. There were a few other little things, those are just two examples.



*The game plan going forward* is to increase both micros and P, simultaneously, and do it SLOWLY. 

Starting with P, which I already did a few days ago from .75 ppm to 1.

Micros for now I'm just filling the 5 ml caps above the rim, on the verge of running over, so like 11 or 12 ml instead of 10 or 15.

After a couple of weeks raise P to 1.3, which will probably be the ceiling for that, raise csm-b to .0125, Fe to .0175 or .02, or something like that, and so on. Anything that protests will just have deal with it.

This is an entirely different way of looking at things for me, as a period of adjustment rather than thinking X amount of whatever is "bad"

Thinking back to when I first switched to dry ferts at full EI levels, going from Flourish liquids and just following the instructions, and 90% of everything withered up and died within a week....hell this might've been all that was wrong in the first place!!!

Wouldnt it be something if 6 months from now Im dosing full EI and everything is happy?? LOL, what a thought!!

I dont expect that to happen, but I will not be surprised if Im able to dose a whole lot more than I am now, and a few problem species do a lot better.

Thanks again to every single person who chimed in on the subject. You've all been a huge help!!


----------



## sohankpatel

Wow, this thread has become very interesting. I do think that the reason my tank can handle such high dosing of traces is the Eco-Complete, so it seems that even a gravel-like substrate with a good CEC is better than PFS or BDBD, contrary to what many members like to tell newbies. I still cant believe how nice your AR looks, I cant remember if its variegated or mini, but mine is a magnet for green spot, none of my other plants get it which is strange. I get the light dusting one the glass that I just scrape off, but despite raising po4 (which significantly reduced growth of the algae) it still slowly grows.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> *The game plan going forward* is to increase both micros and P, simultaneously, and do it SLOWLY.



This is a good plan. May be increase both by 10% a week. If the ratios are maintained, you will be fine for a few weeks. You may want to consider increasing fish density and/or how much you feed them as an organic P-increaser. 

If you recall, my Rotala Kill Tank was under EI using full dose Thrive + Burr Macros routine with low-CEC substrate. Most plants did really well. Rotala were not thrilled. I still strongly suspect that full EI or 2X EI which is probably where I was, gets to or close to toxic levels of traces for Lythraceae (Rotala, Cuphea, Ammannia/Nesaea, and Didiplis) when used with inert gravel.

I feel like I explored both ends of the spectrum: low-side with Burr + Aquasoil and the high-side with EI Plus with inert gravel. In both cases, everything was hunky dory for about a month. I had iron deficiency on the low-side and some sort of toxicity in Rotalas in the high-side. 

So I feel pretty good predicting that full EI in your tank will backfire, at least for some sensitive species. But EI is not the goal. The goal is across-the-board healthy growth for *greater* than 90% of species. 

Like you, I am interested in understanding WHY I cannot grow 100% of the species I try my hand at. That's the hard part. And to do that, you'll have to get off the knife's edge. Sloooowly.


----------



## Greggz

Burr740 the latest series of posts in this thread are very interesting and a good read. Great contributions and well thought out comments.

If you are still searching for planted tank nirvana, it brings some comfort to a stumblin' fumblin' noob like myself (and I'm sure others here as well). 

So thanks for sharing, and I very much appreciate the spirit of this discussion. Will be watching with great interest to see how things progress from here.


----------



## DennisSingh

Ferts, you needn't do slowly in my experience, you can mass it or dose daily, but raising it fast will only show results faster. I gave you a reply on the barrreport. Think it would really help you.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 the latest series of posts in this thread are very interesting and a good read. Great contributions and well thought out comments.
> 
> If you are still searching for planted tank nirvana, it brings some comfort to a stumblin' fumblin' noob like myself (and I'm sure others here as well).
> 
> So thanks for sharing, and I very much appreciate the spirit of this discussion. Will be watching with great interest to see how things progress from here.


Thanks Gregg, and I agree, great contributions all the way around. I really appreciate everyone's input.



StrungOut said:


> Ferts, you needn't do slowly in my experience, you can mass it or dose daily, but raising it fast will only show results faster. I gave you a reply on the barrreport. Think it would really help you.


Thanks D. I replied , and will certainly keep that in mind.


----------



## burr740

New Species!

Between impulse buying, and my friends (you know who you are) , and winning a sweet RAOK last week including 20 red downoi, got about 11 new species in the past week! Gonna just grow everything out for a few weeks and decide what makes the final cut.


Hyptis lorentziana, Rotala mac mini type 4, red Downoi, Limno aromatica 'mini', Rotala colorata












Hyptis and rotala have only been planted a couple days.

Behind those is Limno aromatica 'mini'. I dont think that's a real ID, not sure what the proper name is. So far the tops are turning sorta yellow




















Pantanal still sucks but it's hanging on. Barring a dramatic improvement over the next couple weeks this plant is likely to get tossed, tired of screwing around with it.

Rotala colorata is quickly turning into a nice one. Look for a big group of these somewhere.











The red downoi needs some loving. A little new growth just starting to come in with the purple sheen, interested to see what it does










Pogo kimberly is full of new side shoots where I cut the bad tops off, almost like nothing ever happened, except the group is ruined now :/












Diplidis diandra is looking pretty good lately. A bunch of this going across the back somewhere would look sweet I think





























The plan with ferts is to just inch micros/Fe up gradually over the next few weeks. Im in no rush to shake things up too bad or surge towards higher levels. Just gonna take it slow for a while and see if a little more is better.

I dont expect to really need more than maybe double what Im doing now, but we'll see.


----------



## Greggz

Burr put me on the top of your short list the next time you sell some plants. Love seeing the new species. When do you start planning for the 180G???


----------



## BayazGouramiz

I was having all kinds of toxicity dosing at EI lvls until I found a thread with Burr talking about it, and then it went away after following his micro dosing schedule. Every time he changes it I change mine as well, and the toxicity symptom are gone. The doses do have to increase as the plant mass increases. I've had to increase my KH2P04 to a little above EI levels, decrease my KN03, and increase my Iron. I'm pretty much at EI levels for micros in my 75g, but about 75% of the micro dose is chelated iron. I've also had to increase my co2 yet again. Another factor that people dont talk about much is the effect of organics, and oxygen exchange. I can be dosing the same amount of ferts and start to show signs of something going wrong when nothing has changed much.Only difference is that my water level drops and I'm not getting as much rippling on the surface, and I start to notice the tank needs a few leaves taken out and cleaned a bit. I move the power head up to disturb the surface, clean out some dead leaves and detritus, and all of the sudden the plants get better and everything is cool. Sometimes things change to and you have to add something. You can start to tell what the plants are saying and add out of the dosing regimen. If you catch it early it will change rather quickly, and then you know u have to change your weekly dosing. So the mysterious effect of oxygen, and organics is exasperated even more if you have quite a few fish.....and the wife thinks they're starving  I'm no expert and my plants are still not perfect by any means, but I figured I'd throw my observations in to see if anyone relates or it helps them. One last thing, I think there is another hidden factor in the planted tank EI method; calcium and magnesium not being high enough. Its usually magnesium, and the plants will start to look like shaded L. Aromatica leaves melting, and drooping. Toss some Mgso4 in there and within a day it subsides. All that being said I dont know wtf I'm talking about lol, and the dosing is very touchy. Just a little bit off with super highlight and issues will arise in a hurry.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Another thing I forgot to mention. Its about the dosing levels needing to change. So my 1/4 tsp of Kh204 that I dose every other day (3 times/wk) was once way to much. I was doing great at 1/8th for the longest time. Yet over a 2.5 wk period the plant mass increased by about 50% and I was having GSA. Cranked it up to over a 1/4tsp and everything is good again. This need to decrease was all in relation to the effect of fish food, and waste making the reading way to high, and the tank unhealthy. Especially nitrogen! So far its the only macro nutrient that I need to dose less of. Thats another thing to think about . To much nitrogen kind of makes the plants not do much, and stagnate I think. Kind of looks like micro tox. You read 180ppm and decrease your KN03 and the plants get better than you know that was part of the problem. Especially if it happens several times. Again this is a rather quick subtle change that is somewhat noticeable i think. Same thing goes with Iron. Micro tox is just to easy to notice now. I cheat on my plantex and almost immediately I get curling.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

I guess I'm not done yet... lol! So an example of one of these changes kind of goes like this. Plants are kind of unhealthy not doing much, something is wrong, and they look kind of sick. Test nitrogen and its way high. You know your test isn't to far off either because plants that are supposed to be red and have been red in your tank are more green. So you lower your nitrogen down or nah you just dont dose. You skip KN03 on macro day and you watch the plants start to turn more red and the sickness kind of goes away a bit. Everything kind of perks up. Then the plants start to look a different kind of sick. Kind of lighter and saggy a tiny bit. So you dose less KN03. Like 3/4 to 1/2 and after a few days both sides of the problem are gone. I think you can get used to the symptoms plants are showing for each major nutrient. Iron is rather easy at times. So is Phosphates. Potassium kind of, especially on Hygros. Plantex toxicity is just super easy to spot. Its not even a theory any more to me its just fact. If Tom Barr starts to come back off of an argument you know its a thing... Which he has been doing for quite sometime now.

A lot of these indicators on nutrient issues are species specify as well.So you can start to look for troubled plants and see what they may be saying, and make slight adjustments based on your reearch. K, I'm done


----------



## OreoP

Greggz said:


> Burr put me on the top of your short list the next time you sell some plants. Love seeing the new species. When do you start planning for the 180G???


I will be ready for more plants in a few weeks . Looking forward to more pics and ever increasing inspiration from "The Burr Report"

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## PEdwards

Aw snap, how long until I have to make room?

Those are looking mighty fine my friend.


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## Sean W.

I love getting plants from Joe


----------



## fablau

Very good points BayazGouramiz. Could you please give us some. Ore details about your mentioned issues due to the lack of O2? What kind of problem would that give you?


----------



## clownplanted

For sure very good information @BayazGouramiz I can relate to the low Mg level. So many people including myself assume that having a GH of say higher than 3 or 4 would give you enough Ca and Mg. So many overlook this as a possible deficiency and look at their micro and macro dosing. Well in my case I have a GH of 6 so like I said assumed I had enough but saw all the signs of Ca and Mg issues. Well I finally got the water report and sure enough only had Ca 10 and Mg 4. VERY low. Even before getting the water report I started adding GH booster in case it was the issue and sure enough plants almost immediately showed massive improvement. Again thanks for the great information.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

fablau said:


> Very good points BayazGouramiz. Could you please give us some. Ore details about your mentioned issues due to the lack of O2? What kind of problem would that give you?


TBO I dont know its just a hunch I get. But this is kind of what I see. Biofilm will start to show on the surface, and the tank just looks kind of stagnate and suffocated. They don't really grow much. If you look at every good tank they all pretty much have a decent amount of surface disturbance. This is to allow more co2 while also adding more o2. Like I said though its just a hunch. Plants need oxygen but usually what is present is enough, but with high co2 levels maybe there isnt enough. Like I said just a hunch. I could be way off lol.


----------



## burr740

@BayazGouramiz your tank is looking good man, noticed it the other day in your sales thread and was like daaaaamn. 

Dont mind if I share a pic - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...member-first-planted-tank-5.html#post10137809

Are you still mirroring my fert routine with new BDbs sub?

----------------------------

Pogosteman erectus is about the only plant in the 120 still showing signs of the recent micro incident and A/C crisis. 

Most tops have stunted to some degree, there's a little bba on the lower parts, and lots of new side shoots coming in - which is what happens when the plant decides to abandon the main top and start over.

Im either going to top all these or take them out completely. I could really use the space to grow out some other stuff for a couple of months. 











Meanwhile in the 50, smashed against the back wall, there's about a dozen coming off 3 main stumps. These are 8"-12" long, packed together like sardines, and every tip is perfect!


* The 50 didnt get the same micro experiment as the 120, and also spent one less day in the heat when the A/C went out. The 120 went two days in the upper 80s, the back room tanks only went one day.


----------



## clownplanted

Not bad considering the temp they had to deal with. So do you feel by upping the micros a bit has helped? Yours always looks great even with a disaster. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Sean W.

How are those Red Downio doing @burr740?


----------



## burr740

clownplanted said:


> Not bad considering the temp they had to deal with. So do you feel by upping the micros a bit has helped? Yours always looks great even with a disaster.


Well I havent really upped them yet.

The past couple month's dosing has been 3x week csmb @ .01 ppm Fe, and Fe DTPA at .015.

This was showing to not be enough for a couple of things.

A few months ago, felt like I had a real sweet spot of .015 csmb and .02 dtpa. Most everything did well.

The plan a few weeks ago was to go back to those amounts. But when I tried to do it all at once, bad things happened. See the last 3 pages for more details.

Currently at .012 csmb and .02 dtpa. It's been almost 2 weeks at the Fe level, only a couple doses of higher csmb.


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> How are those Red Downio doing @*burr740*?


They've perked up, growing pretty well it seems, about like the regular kind. Color-wise they're getting a little bit of that grayish-hazy-purple color but nothing dramatic.

How are yours?


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> They've perked up, growing pretty well it seems, about like the regular kind. Color-wise they're getting a little bit of that grayish-hazy-purple color but nothing dramatic.
> 
> How are yours?



Oh yea! Those look nice! 

Uhm, well mine are doing okay... Not dead yet... haha


----------



## Greggz

Burr740 glad to see you got by the A/C event relatively unscathed. It was looking a little dicey there for awhile.

It leads to a question about temperature. With your 6 bulb fixture, do you have any issues with the tank being too warm in the summer? If the temp does rise, ever notice any ill effects? Algae?

I'm asking because with my new light set up, I am concerned about my temp. Had the A/C on the last few days here and tank is right up at about 79.5 at end of lighting period. Usually I keep it around 77 t 78. 

Thinking I might need to get some fans to keep the temp down. Any thoughts??

And by the way, the new arrivals all perked up nicely today.


----------



## clownplanted

Greggz said:


> Burr740 glad to see you got by the A/C event relatively unscathed. It was looking a little dicey there for awhile.
> 
> 
> 
> It leads to a question about temperature. With your 6 bulb fixture, do you have any issues with the tank being too warm in the summer? If the temp does rise, ever notice any ill effects? Algae?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm asking because with my new light set up, I am concerned about my temp. Had the A/C on the last few days here and tank is right up at about 79.5 at end of lighting period. Usually I keep it around 77 t 78.
> 
> 
> 
> Thinking I might need to get some fans to keep the temp down. Any thoughts??
> 
> 
> 
> And by the way, the new arrivals all perked up nicely today.




Same thing happened with mine. Usually about 79 but went up to 79.8 with new lights. Turned up co2 and surface movement up a bit. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr740 glad to see you got by the A/C event relatively unscathed. It was looking a little dicey there for awhile.
> 
> It leads to a question about temperature. With your 6 bulb fixture, do you have any issues with the tank being too warm in the summer? If the temp does rise, ever notice any ill effects? Algae?
> 
> I'm asking because with my new light set up, I am concerned about my temp. Had the A/C on the last few days here and tank is right up at about 79.5 at end of lighting period. Usually I keep it around 77 t 78.
> 
> Thinking I might need to get some fans to keep the temp down. Any thoughts??
> 
> And by the way, the new arrivals all perked up nicely today.


Not really sure tbh. I know higher temps = less CO2 and O2, and higher plant metablism. To what degree Im not entirely sure.

Mine generally stays a degree or two warmer than the house, which is usually in the mid 70s.

Another thing mine is open and you have a full canopy, right? So yours may transfer more heat to the tank than mine.


Glad to hear the plants perked up nice.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

burr740 said:


> @BayazGouramiz your tank is looking good man, noticed it the other day in your sales thread and was like daaaaamn.
> 
> Dont mind if I share a pic - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...member-first-planted-tank-5.html#post10137809
> 
> Are you still mirroring my fert routine with new BDbs sub?
> 
> ----------------------------


Thanks man  and yes I'm still mirroring your fert routine and the BDBS has helped a lot. So much better than my turface mixed with ADA. It allows me to clean easier, and makes it much easier to maintain consistent Gh levels. Well worth the 2hr drive to get it.


----------



## Dempsey

Looks amazing dude.... 

Side note: On page 33 of your old journal, you posted a link of bulbs for sale. FYI, they are buy 1 get 1 free now. Just ordered some! Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Dempsey

Another side note, I thought I had a sunlight supply fixture but after looking at your link, I see that I have the same fixture that you do on my 75. I'm only using the inner 4 though. I have the outer 2 in but "unscrewed"


----------



## burr740

Big trim over the weekend. Just did a water change so it's a little hazy...and bubbly.

What to do with the background stems is totally up in the air. Have lots of ideas and plants to use, but havent decided anything definite yet. Will begin sorting that out over the next few weeks.


----------



## burr740

Topped/replanted the wallichii, hopefully it takes it well and doesnt pout.

Stuck a few Myrios beside it just to see the difference. It's not really the visual impact I'd imagined, think the wallichii looks better.












Sold a few ARs, mostly stumps with baby shoots here now












Red Downoi continues to color up












Pillaged the indica so its a mess right now. Nelsonia canescens is just here growing out for a week or two. Got some to replace it with, but it's a surprise. 

Will sort both out by next weeks WC


----------



## burr740

In a shocking turn of events the Pantanal has perked up. All these are new side shoots coming from recently cut off tops. 

Looking... not too bad so far. 





















Pogo kimberly rebounding with side shoots


----------



## PEdwards

You're a bad influence, my friend. You've contributed to me making potentially troublesome decisions of late.  

Every time I look at your thread my wife says "Oh, how beautiful!". She never says that about my tank. LOL


----------



## Sean W.

Side shots are always my fav!


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> Side shots are always my fav!


Mine too. Side views have incredible depth when done right. Im intentionally trying to scape this thing to look good from both sides. 

Its a work in progress.


----------



## DennisSingh

Eriocaulon linear looks very deficient. Is that the way it grows? or..

Coming along nicely, welcome to the pantanal group. I had thought you given up on the plant , but persistence is key!!


----------



## burr740

StrungOut said:


> Eriocaulon linear looks very deficient. Is that the way it grows? or..
> 
> Coming along nicely, welcome to the pantanal group. I had thought you given up on the plant , but persistence is key!!


Thanks man

Healthy lineare is a neon agave color, it literally glows. So that's how it's supposed to look.











Pantanal has always done well in spurts, fine for a while then it goes to hell. Sometimes there's an apparent good reason, sometimes not.

But I just keeps on trying.


----------



## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> Thanks man
> 
> Healthy lineare is a neon agave color, it literally glows. So that's how it's supposed to look.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pantanal has always done well in spurts, fine for a while then it goes to hell. Sometimes there's an apparent good reason, sometimes not.
> 
> But I just keeps on trying.


So... Have you fully revealed your magic potion that you dose in this tank?? 

I had a problem like that with Pantanal but found that it LOVED high lights. Not that lights had everything to do with it but in my tank it did amazing the closer it got to the lights.


----------



## burr740

Dempsey said:


> So... Have you fully revealed your magic potion that you dose in this tank??


No secret or magic potion here. 

I walk in there every day with a gallon jug of Clorox in my hand, and tell every plant it better straighten up or this is what's it's going to get.

They all know I'll do it too!


----------



## fablau

Looking great Burr. Have you increased your traces already? Any changes?


----------



## clownplanted

burr740 said:


> No secret or magic potion here.
> 
> I walk in there every day with a gallon jug of Clorox in my hand, and tell every plant it better straighten up or this is what's it's going to get.
> 
> They all know I'll do it too!




I bet they look forward to your bed time stories before lights out 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

fablau said:


> Looking great Burr. Have you increased your traces already? Any changes?


It's been about a week at .012 csmb and .025 Fe, 3x. Sorta going light on the csmb and heavier on the Fe. Most everything seems fantastically happy, but its early days yet.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> It's been about a week at .012 csmb and .025 Fe, 3x. Sorta going light on the csmb and heavier on the Fe. Most everything seems fantastically happy, but its early days yet.




Oh, I see, you just increased the Fe from DTPA and almost didn't touch Fe from CSM... Interesting indeed! I will keep following... Thanks


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Oh, I see, you just increased the Fe from DTPA and almost didn't touch Fe from CSM... Interesting indeed! I will keep following... Thanks


Actually fab Im about to start rolling my own micros instead of using csmb. 

You can read the long details HERE. right below Zorfox' excellent post, which I believe you will find very interesting too.

Also would it be possible for you guys to add _zinc sulfate monohydrate 35.5%_ to rotalabutterfly? Zorfox has it in his calculator but Im not seeing it on rb, Unless it's listed as something else that I dont recognize. 

Thanks!


----------



## sohankpatel

I'm trying to find a Pogostemon Octopus replacement for my tank, it is just too hard to manage. Do you have any stems that you would recommend that don't drop their lower leaves when they are a little shaded? If you look in my signature, there is a link to my tank and the right side needs to be a bit more "Dutch" for me to be happy with it, the problem is that many stems become bare when allowed to grow into a bush like that, any suggestions for plants that have a similar texture and are green? (No more red plants if I want to be true dutch)


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Actually fab Im about to start rolling my own micros instead of using csmb.
> 
> You can read the long details HERE. right below Zorfox' excellent post, which I believe you will find very interesting too.
> 
> Also would it be possible for you guys to add _zinc sulfate monohydrate 35.5%_ to rotalabutterfly? Zorfox has it in his calculator but Im not seeing it on rb, Unless it's listed as something else that I dont recognize.
> 
> Thanks!




Very interesting reading Burr! Thanks for letting me know about that, I will follow and participate.

As for zinc sulfate Monohydrate, I will try to add it in the coming days.

Thanks again


----------



## fablau

Burr, Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate added to rotalabutterly.com. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## clownplanted

fablau said:


> Burr, Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate added to rotalabutterly.com. Thanks for the suggestion!




Are you the one that created that site? Very good stuff. Thank you for all the hard work and helps greatly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Malakian

Man, I seldom get envious. But these plants have me almost "boiling" of envy over here! Damn near perfect every. single. plant, at least to my untrained eye. Except for the Pantanal, but that seems like one difficult plant from what I've read, like it has it's own category of difficulty, 2 steps over "Advanced/ Very difficult". It seems to wither and melt if you just breathe to hard in it's general direction. Nice to see its perking up for you though. Keep up the good work!


----------



## DMtankd

This has to be the single best planted tank thread in the history of the internet - particularly when you take into account that it links to all the other contenders 

Burr - when you roll your own - are you planning to add citric acid or any other kind of organic binder...or just the salts?

Considering going this route as well. I saw major improvements since I started supplementing my previous trace dosing (basically your method with ~25% more CSMB and Fe as I have Flourite) with 10ml of Flourish Trace 2x week. I have been considering phasing out to using Trace completely but the ratios in Trace are so far off CSMB. Was considering adding borax and MnSO4 to some Trace, all that I have on hand. Following with interest.


----------



## Greggz

DMtankd said:


> This has to be the single best planted tank thread in the history of the internet - particularly when you take into account that it links to all the other contenders


If you like this one, you should also check out Burr's thread on his previous tank.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/592313-75-gallon-journey.html

An interesting read that I have revisited many times.


----------



## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> I'm trying to find a Pogostemon Octopus replacement for my tank, it is just too hard to manage. Do you have any stems that you would recommend that don't drop their lower leaves when they are a little shaded? If you look in my signature, there is a link to my tank and the right side needs to be a bit more "Dutch" for me to be happy with it, the problem is that many stems become bare when allowed to grow into a bush like that, any suggestions for plants that have a similar texture and are green? (No more red plants if I want to be true dutch)


Dropping lower leaves is more of a general health issue, nothing to do with those areas getting light. All these tight groups you see in tanks everywhere, those stems are not devoid of lower leaves. Healthy plants dont drop leaves, unless we're talking about trees in the fall. 

Of course, if you let a group get too dense for it's own good, there can be issues that include various symptoms. But this comes back to plant health. How dense is too dense depends on the species. Some things need more space than others. That octopus should do very well in a dense bush.

As to recommending another plant, I think you chose a good one for right there. Finer leaved species add a sense of depth when used in the background. 

But you dont want to use ALL fine leaves. This is a common mistake. Dutch style relies on contrasting leaf sizes and shape as much as color. You should work a larger leaved species or two in somewhere. 

You might try the Pogosteman erectus over in the right corner, and do a larger leaved green species where it's at now. The regular Hygrophila corymbosa is an old school staple in traditional Dutch tanks. 

That right side could use a midground plant between the Hydrocotyle and the background stem. Between the wood and the glass.

Speaking of the wood, either take that log out or cover it with moss. A big bare log doesnt belong in a Dutch style.

Also it would look better rotated clockwise a little but, going more front to back at an angle, instead of perfectly sideways. This will add both separation and depth. Covered in moss it would also be a nice dark green which the tank currently lacks.

Whatever that is in front of the Lugwigia sp red would do better somewhere else. The leaves are too fine and the color too neutral for right there. This would be another good place for a larger leaved midground species. or you could trial the blyxa on over into that area. Hygrophila corymbosa var. 'compact' might be a good plant to consider as well. 

Notice you have to two reddest plants in the tank dead center and right in front of each other - the sp red and AR. It would look better to place those in opposite quadrants. This would create a high focal point on one side and a lower focal point on the other, and be all the reds you need really.

You asked.... :grin2:




fablau said:


> Burr, Zinc Sulfate Monohydrate added to rotalabutterly.com. Thanks for the suggestion!


Awesome man, thanks a lot!



Malakian said:


> Man, I seldom get envious. But these plants have me almost "boiling" of envy over here! Damn near perfect every. single. plant, at least to my untrained eye. Except for the Pantanal, but that seems like one difficult plant from what I've read, like it has it's own category of difficulty, 2 steps over "Advanced/ Very difficult". It seems to wither and melt if you just breathe to hard in it's general direction. Nice to see its perking up for you though. Keep up the good work!


Thank Malakain

Pantanal is a weed when happy. Seems like most folks either grow it effortlessly, or not well at all. So far Im in the latter category. :frown2:



DMtankd said:


> This has to be the single best planted tank thread in the history of the internet - particularly when you take into account that it links to all the other contenders
> 
> Burr - when you roll your own - are you planning to add citric acid or any other kind of organic binder...or just the salts?
> 
> Considering going this route as well. I saw major improvements since I started supplementing my previous trace dosing (basically your method with ~25% more CSMB and Fe as I have Flourite) with 10ml of Flourish Trace 2x week. I have been considering phasing out to using Trace completely but the ratios in Trace are so far off CSMB. Was considering adding borax and MnSO4 to some Trace, all that I have on hand. Following with interest.


That is quite a compliment, not sure I agree with you but thanks!!

Not going to use any chelators, just so4 compounds and Borax for B. Same stuff that's in Flourish comp, except Fe which will be DTPA instead of gluconate.

The goal is to eliminate the edta chelate used in csmb. My PH is too high for it to remain stable, free it can wreak havoc on other nutrients, is potentially toxic to plants, and isnt biodegradable so it just sticks around forever except for water changes. See the link I posted earlier for the full details.

Edit: Here it is again for convenience, scroll down a few posts

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1155738-fe-question-2.html

Bump:


Greggz said:


> If you like this one, you should also check out Burr's thread on his previous tank.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/592313-75-gallon-journey.html
> 
> An interesting read that I have revisited many times.


Its funny to me looking back at those first few pages when I was just starting out. That was my first planted tank ever. The newb-ness was STRONG back then, lol


----------



## fablau

clownplanted said:


> Are you the one that created that site? Very good stuff. Thank you for all the hard work and helps greatly.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I and Jason made that site together, based on the work by Wet on the old Rota.la calculator (for anyone who remember him, such a nice guy).

Glad to contribute to the hobby as much as I can. Thank you!


----------



## fablau

Burr, you are welcome 

This new EDTA issue really intrigues me. I am trying to understand if what Zorfox suggested on that thread is just speculation or proven fact? For sure that could explain a lot of things...


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Burr, you are welcome
> 
> This new EDTA issue really intrigues me. I am trying to understand if what Zorfox suggested on that thread is just speculation or proven fact? For sure that could explain a lot of things...


Well, how various chelates react at different PH levels is definitely a fact.

How they bind to other things, unbind and rebind - fact 

That edta isnt biodegradable - fact

The degree of etda's toxicity, as it relates to planted aquaria - is probably still up in the air. It is however, under environmental scrutiny as of late.

Hydroponic folks are also moving away from using it. 

Here's a couple good reads @bcarl_10gal shared with me recently. 

On chelates

https://manicbotanix.com/chelates-in-hydroponic-solutions/

Micros in general

https://manicbotanix.com/micronutrients-microelements-in-hydroponics/


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Not going to use any chelators, just so4 compounds and Borax for B. Same stuff that's in Flourish comp, except Fe which will be DTPA instead of gluconate.
> 
> The goal is to eliminate the edta chelate used in csmb. My PH is too high for it to remain stable, free it can wreak havoc on other nutrients, is potentially toxic to plants, and isnt biodegradable so it just sticks around forever except for water changes. See the link I posted earlier for the full details.
> 
> Edit: Here it is again for convenience, scroll down a few posts
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1155738-fe-question-2.html


i think i might have to switch to FE gluconate after reading that thread, not sure if DPTA would be efficicent in my water (8.2 degassed, 7.2->6.8 during the co2/light cycle, 7.5 before the cycle starts)

dumb question, but is there such a thing as too much so4?

have you planned out how much of each micro you're gonna roll with after making the switch?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> i think i might have to switch to FE gluconate after reading that thread, not sure if DPTA would be efficicent in my water (8.2 degassed, 7.2->6.8 during the co2/light cycle, 7.5 before the cycle starts)
> 
> dumb question, but is there such a thing as too much so4?
> 
> have you planned out how much of each micro you're gonna roll with after making the switch?


Sulfur/sulfate is a required secondary macro nutrient plants use a lot of, like Ca and Mg. Im sure there is a tipping point of having too much but it'd be way on up there.

Role of Sulfur in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX

The 75gal used to run around 90 ppm (SO4), at least that's what it was when @PortalMasterRy tested my water with his Hanna rig. PM said the level in his tank was out of range for the test (100 ppm)

Either way these smaller amounts of micros wont add very much, so nothing to worry about there


As for how much of each micro to add, Im thinking about just copying the ratio of everything in csmb. 

Except for Mn, which will be dosed to have a 2:1 Fe Mn ratio regardless.

More on the Fe-Mn relationship

Role of Manganese in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC438057/?page=7


That's really all I know to do. May take a closer look at Hoagland, or some of the other commercial trace mixes. Probably will just mirror what's in csmb though.

The rest of the ferts should arrive first part of next week. Will do a couple back to back 80% water changes to hopefully get rid of all the edta in there first. That's one great thing about having an inert substrate, its very easy to reset the levels of everything.


----------



## sohankpatel

@burr740 Yep, I asked and got demolished. As for the pogostemon octopus, my issue isn't it dropping leaves, it's the unmanageable growth rate, almost an inch a day gets hard to control. As for the wood, I have talked to a former AGA judge, and he thought the wood was fine in the tank, Dutch doesn't specifically ban wood, but it does say that only one or 2 bare pieces are allowed, I do like the idea of using moss though to get some texture and color contrast. The plant in front of sp red is Ludwigia Arcuata and I agree the area needs a bit more contrast between those 2 plants. Your advice was the first amount of really good advice that I have heard, and I thank you for that.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> Not going to use any chelators, just so4 compounds and Borax for B. Same stuff that's in Flourish comp, except Fe which will be DTPA instead of gluconate.
> 
> The goal is to eliminate the edta chelate used in csmb. My PH is too high for it to remain stable, free it can wreak havoc on other nutrients, is potentially toxic to plants, and isnt biodegradable so it just sticks around forever except for water changes. See the link I posted earlier for the full details.
> 
> Edit: Here it is again for convenience, scroll down a few posts
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1155738-fe-question-2.html


Burr, I've been mixing my own micros for the last year, using the sulfates of the various metals. Interesting to hear about EDTA not being biodegradable. I've been using equal small amounts of Fe gluconate, EDTA, and DPTA, to the tune of about 150 PPB per week. I'll try dropping EDTA from the mix next time.

One thing to keep in mind about Borax, sodium tetraborate decahydrate, the boron is bound with oxygen as an anion. If you are looking at molybdenum, most available as sodium molybdate, the same is also true. Those anions seem to precipitate readily with all the transition metals -- Fe, Zn, Mn, Cu. The upshot is, you lose it (and some of your metals too) instantly if you mix the metal sulfates with borax. Borate and molybdate do NOT precipitate with potassium, so you can include them in your macronutrient solutions to the extent you need them.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Well, how various chelates react at different PH levels is definitely a fact.
> 
> How they bind to other things, unbind and rebind - fact
> 
> That edta isnt biodegradable - fact
> 
> The degree of etda's toxicity, as it relates to planted aquaria - is probably still up in the air. It is however, under environmental scrutiny as of late.
> 
> Hydroponic folks are also moving away from using it.
> 
> Here's a couple good reads @*bcarl_10gal* shared with me recently.
> 
> On chelates
> 
> https://manicbotanix.com/chelates-in-hydroponic-solutions/
> 
> Micros in general
> 
> https://manicbotanix.com/micronutrients-microelements-in-hydroponics/


Thank you Burr for confirming that. I am surprised that this issue of EDTA being not biodegradable and that can "accumulate" in water with negative effects has never been brought up anywhere for the past 10 years, or at least, since the inception of EI. Tom also never mentioned such a possible problem. I'd really love to know his thoughts on this. Maybe we should open a thread on the barrreport to discuss all this with him as well. I bet Vin also would be extremely interested in joining the conversation.


----------



## burr740

sohankpatel said:


> @*burr740* Yep, I asked and got demolished. As for the pogostemon octopus, my issue isn't it dropping leaves, it's the unmanageable growth rate, almost an inch a day gets hard to control. As for the wood, I have talked to a former AGA judge, and he thought the wood was fine in the tank, Dutch doesn't specifically ban wood, but it does say that only one or 2 bare pieces are allowed, I do like the idea of using moss though to get some texture and color contrast. The plant in front of sp red is Ludwigia Arcuata and I agree the area needs a bit more contrast between those 2 plants. Your advice was the first amount of really good advice that I have heard, and I thank you for that.


Not demolished my young friend, enlightened! 

There's really two separate aspects to this hobby - the growing and the scaping. 

It takes a while to learn both.

It's a little easier with nature styles because they typically use easier plants. 

You, like me, chose to dive right into the deep end!



Christophe said:


> Burr, I've been mixing my own micros for the last year, using the sulfates of the various metals. Interesting to hear about EDTA not being biodegradable. I've been using equal small amounts of Fe gluconate, EDTA, and DPTA, to the tune of about 150 PPB per week. I'll try dropping EDTA from the mix next time.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind about Borax, sodium tetraborate decahydrate, the boron is bound with oxygen as an anion. If you are looking at molybdenum, most available as sodium molybdate, the same is also true. Those anions seem to precipitate readily with all the transition metals -- Fe, Zn, Mn, Cu. The upshot is, you lose it (and some of your metals too) instantly if you mix the metal sulfates with borax. Borate and molybdate do NOT precipitate with potassium, so you can include them in your macronutrient solutions to the extent you need them.


Thanks Christophe. I thought you made your own too, had planned on sending you a mssg on barr report to see what you thought of my plan. Thank you for chiming in.

By potassium, did you mean phosphate?

Yes the Mo I have is sodium molybdate. Flourish comp and Flourish trace both use it for the Mo.

How do they get around the precipitation thing you mentioned? Seems like they couldnt get away with that if it's really a big thing. 

I dont understand what you mean in the part about the "upshot". I assume you mean a good thing to lose the anion, and a little of the metal, but not much?

Pardon the dumb question but Im a complete noob when it comes to chemistry. 




fablau said:


> Thank you Burr for confirming that. I am surprised that this issue of EDTA being not biodegradable and that can "accumulate" in water with negative effects has never been brought up anywhere for the past 10 years, or at least, since the inception of EI. Tom also never mentioned such a possible problem. I'd really love to know his thoughts on this. Maybe we should open a thread on the barrreport to discuss all this with him as well. I bet Vin also would be extremely interested in joining the conversation.


I can just hear Tom now, herp derp 20 years been using edta herp derp.. 

Just kidding of course. It would indeed be interesting to see what he has to say.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> Thanks Christophe. I thought you made your own too, had planned on sending you a mssg on barr report to see what you thought of my plan. Thank you for chiming in.
> 
> By potassium, did you mean phosphate?


Nope, potassium. Borate and molybdate are anions, negatively charged. They won’t react with phosphate or nitrate, other anions. My macro solutions are still clear down to the last dose 4 weeks in. I’ve been including borax & sodium molybdate with them for the past year.

When I first attempted mixing a micro solution I noticed an obvious precipitate the moment I tried to add borax. So I tested everything in separate independent combinations, always in DI water, so there’s no other inclusions. All the transition metal-based (Fe, Mn, Zn, Cu) sulfates or chelates precipitated with borate or molybdate. But testing against KNO3 and KH2PO4 showed no precipitate, even at fairly high concentrations. 


burr740 said:


> Yes the Mo I have is sodium molybdate. Flourish comp and Flourish trace both use it for the Mo.
> 
> How do they get around the precipitation thing you mentioned? Seems like they couldn’t get away with that if it's really a big thing.


Not sure what Seachem is doing to keep things dissolved while in the bottle, more aggressive chelates? Maybe not so much a problem in a more acidic solution? In the tank, once it’s in some minuscule concentration it’s a slightly different ballgame, there’s at least a decent chance of it being available to plants. I just wasn’t able to keep it precip-free with the compounds & methods I have. Putting the boron & molybdenum with the macros has been an easy option.

CSM+B might be another matter. When I mix a CSM_B solution of fairly high concentration, does it really all dissolve, is there really no precipitate? I wasn’t convinced last time I tried, not even at a fairly dilute mixing. A day later there was an appreciable amount of *something* at the bottom of the beaker. It’s one of the things that pushed me to try rolling my own. I’m not convinced it’s designed for any use but to be thrown a pound or two at a time into the back of a 3000 gallon tanker truck to go spray in a field.


----------



## fablau

*120 Gal - Dutchy Freestyle*



burr740 said:


> Not demolished my young friend, enlightened!
> 
> There's really two separate aspects to this hobby - the growing and the scaping.
> 
> It takes a while to learn both.
> 
> It's a little easier with nature styles because they typically use easier plants.
> 
> You, like me, chose to dive right into the deep end!
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Christophe. I thought you made your own too, had planned on sending you a mssg on barr report to see what you thought of my plan. Thank you for chiming in.
> 
> By potassium, did you mean phosphate?
> 
> Yes the Mo I have is sodium molybdate. Flourish comp and Flourish trace both use it for the Mo.
> 
> How do they get around the precipitation thing you mentioned? Seems like they couldnt get away with that if it's really a big thing.
> 
> I dont understand what you mean in the part about the "upshot". I assume you mean a good thing to lose the anion, and a little of the metal, but not much?
> 
> Pardon the dumb question but Im a complete noob when it comes to chemistry.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can just hear Tom now, herp derp 20 years been using edta herp derp..
> 
> Just kidding of course. Seriously it would be interesting to see what he has to say.




Right... Right... Can't think what's coming out! We gotta do it


----------



## burr740

@Christophe OK, I understand better now Will do it exactly like you said. 

Looks like I was about to possibly make a big mistake! 

Thank you very much!


----------



## Greggz

Burr just wanted to drop in and say I am following this latest conversation with great interest. I wish I could participate, but I don't know enough to contribute. At least so far. Trying to digest this all and get a better understanding of micros.

So thanks for sharing. Don't know if you will create the perfect elixir, but any advancement would be welcome.

And if you need a guinea pig sometime, count me in.


----------



## PEdwards

Have you considered using activated carbon or an organic scavenging resin to remove the chelators?


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> Have you considered using activated carbon or an organic scavenging resin to remove the chelators?


No I have not but that's a good idea. Assuming it works?

Im going to do two back to back 80% water changes before starting the new blend. That should reset everything to near zero, chelates included


----------



## Sean W.

Sigh... A whole page without any pictures


----------



## Malakian

PEdwards said:


> Have you considered using activated carbon or an organic scavenging resin to remove the chelators?


Organic scavengers would probably not work, since the chelators are inorganic. If not, something like Purigen would strip the water of all chelated nutrients, same with AC which we know it does not do. Or else many planted tanks would have issues since a lot use purigen, same goes for AC which ADA uses a lot. AC will adsorb some Fe, in form of Fe2+ and Fe3+ from say Ferrous gluconate/sulfate etc, but not the chelators to any measurable degree.


----------



## PEdwards

That certainly looks like an organic molecule to me. If there's some loose in the tank AC or organic scavenging resin should take some of it out depending on the pore size of the AC and charge form of the resin. EDTA may just be too big and have the wrong charge for a resin to get hold of, but it's worth a try for other reasons.


----------



## burr740

I do have Purigen in there, about 250 ml in each filter.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

fablau said:


> Thank you Burr for confirming that. I am surprised that this issue of EDTA being not biodegradable and that can "accumulate" in water with negative effects has never been brought up anywhere for the past 10 years, or at least, since the inception of EI. Tom also never mentioned such a possible problem. I'd really love to know his thoughts on this. Maybe we should open a thread on the barrreport to discuss all this with him as well. I bet Vin also would be extremely interested in joining the conversation.


Hey Fab - just reading and watching with an open mind and a hint of skepticism. 

Mind you, I have not dismissed trace tox as hog wash either. Toxicity is a neutral subject with no emotional baggage in terrestrial horticulture. Proponents of aquarium trace tox have polarized the issue, so we have denialists who are equally dug in. This does not advance our hobby. An open mind and a collective willingness to experiment will get us there. I absolutely LOVE the fact that so many of us are willing to tweak, experiment and roll our own ferts to see what works. Even if these are not all perfectly controlled experiments, if hordes of n=1 anecdotes all begin pointing in a general direction, we have something. 

Having played around with my 'Kill Tank' for almost a year, I know that plants look crappy for several reasons. Too much traces is just one reason. CSM+B is a heavy-handed industrial product with a potentially dicey chelator. I can theoretically see it causing problems for people with inert substrates and high degassed pH. The same dose may be far less harmful with aquasoil and pH of 5.5. 

For most people, EDTA is not going to cause issues because of the dose at which it is administered and the regular water changes we all do. EDTA is not villian du jour. But Zorfox definitely has an excellent point/s. FWIW, rolling your own traces is easy enough to do (thanks to Rotalabutterfly) that we can easily try it and share results here soon enough. 

In my Dutch tank, I am going to continue dosing my 3X Burr traces - CSM+B boosted with Fe DTPA and MnSO4. CSM+B is light in the blend, delivering only 0.045 ppm Fe every other day. Tank seems to be doing well.


----------



## burr740

Well now it looks like Sat when the ferts will arrive. :/



> Your Amazon.com order of "1 Pound - Sodium Molybdate..." and 13 more items has shipped!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Well now it looks like Sat when the ferts will arrive. :/


Just for giggles, you should calculate how many years your pound of Molybdate will last, given your dosing.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> Just for giggles, you should calculate how many years your pound of Molybdate will last, given your dosing.


Haha, lets see if I can do this right. What'd we say the other day, 10 lifetimes? 

Based on a csmb dose of .015 ppm Fe = .000114855 ppm Mo


"To reach your target of *0.000114855ppm Mo* you will need to add *5.78 milligrams (equivalent to less than 1/64 tsp)* of Na2MoO4*2H2O to your 500mL dosing container. Add 10mL of that mix to your 105gal aquarium to yield:"

So 5.78 milligrams = 50 doses, or about 100 days worth

453,592 milligrams in a pound

453,592 divided by 5.78 = 78,476.1245 batches lasting 100 days each

So approximately 7,847,600 days worth, divided by 365 = 21,500 years

LOL that cant be right, somebody check my math


----------



## Christophe

Saxa Tilly said:


> Just for giggles, you should calculate how many years your pound of Molybdate will last, given your dosing.


I'm one year into my supply. At the rate I'm currently using it, I'll run out in November of 2126. I figure by then that I'll be thoroughly sick of planted tanks and will have moved on to something else.


----------



## burr740

Christophe said:


> I'm one year into my supply. At the rate I'm currently using it, I'll run out in November of 2126. I figure by then that I'll be thoroughly sick of planted tanks and will have moved on to something else.


How many ppm of Mo are you dosing?

Also did you mirror csmb for the ratios of everything or use something else to go by?


----------



## KWaters

This is really great, I hadn't seen this tank before but color me impressed. Lots of good reds going on. Great balance of heights and shapes, and a wide variety of plants. Normally I prefer aquascapes that stick to one or two well-showcased plants, but you've managed to use a wide variety in a way that makes sense.


----------



## Ben Belton

Sean W. said:


> Sigh... A whole page without any pictures


From the person closing out their tank. :grin2:


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> How many ppm of Mo are you dosing?
> 
> Also did you mirror csmb for the ratios of everything or use something else to go by?


I'm only dosing 1.3 ppb per week of Mo.

I kinda surveyed a number of commercially provided micros. They're all pretty similar. My mix is sort of an average of them.

Current weekly totals:
Micro Solution
Fe 159 ppb, from roughly even amounts of Fe-gluc, Fe-EDTA, and Fe-DPTA
Mn 44 ppb
Zn 12 ppb
Cu 2 ppb

Macro Solution
NO3 15 ppm
PO4 1.8 ppm
K 10.2 ppm
Mo 1.3 ppb

I've dropped boron from the mix entirely since my water test showed 40 ppb in the tap. I mix DI 50/50, but 20 ppb is more than I mostly was adding when I thought I needed it anyway. Running it higher didn't seem to improve anything.

I make 4 weeks worth at a time, which is a good interval for experimentation, plus it's not around long enough to start growing stuff.


----------



## burr740

Christophe said:


> I'm only dosing 1.3 ppb per week of Mo.
> 
> I kinda surveyed a number of commercially provided micros. They're all pretty similar. My mix is sort of an average of them.
> 
> Current weekly totals:
> Micro Solution
> Fe 159 ppb, from roughly even amounts of Fe-gluc, Fe-EDTA, and Fe-DPTA
> Mn 44 ppb
> Zn 12 ppb
> Cu 2 ppb
> 
> Macro Solution
> NO3 15 ppm
> PO4 1.8 ppm
> K 10.2 ppm
> Mo 1.3 ppb
> 
> I've dropped boron from the mix entirely since my water test showed 40 ppb in the tap. I mix DI 50/50, but 20 ppb is more than I mostly was adding when I thought I needed it anyway. Running it higher didn't seem to improve anything.
> 
> I make 4 weeks worth at a time, which is a good interval for experimentation, plus it's not around long enough to start growing stuff.


Thanks Christophe that is very helpful. I like the idea of 4 weeks worth at a time, especially in the beginning.

One more question if you dont mind, when you saw the precipitation of Mo and B, were you adding any vinegar, etc first to drop the alkalinity?

Im going to keep those separate regardless, just still trying to wrap my brain around why it seems to be OK in Seachem products.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> Thanks Christophe that is very helpful. I like the idea of 4 weeks worth at a time, especially in the beginning.
> 
> One more question if you dont mind, when you saw the precipitation of Mo and B, were you adding any vinegar, etc first to drop the alkalinity?
> 
> Im going to keep those separate regardless, just still trying to wrap my brain around why it seems to be OK in Seachem products.


I did not add vinegar to the test solutions.

I usually add 10ml white vinegar, the ordinary household strength, 3% or whatever, at the end in making my solutions.

Maybe that's worth a redo of the tests, to check that solubility in acidic solution.


----------



## burr740

Christophe said:


> I did not add vinegar to the test solutions.
> 
> I usually add 10ml white vinegar, the ordinary household strength, 3% or whatever, at the end in making my solutions.
> 
> Maybe that's worth a redo of the tests, to check that solubility in acidic solution.


OK thanks. I may run a test myself to see what happens. 

Fwiw I always add vinegar to the water first. That way the solution is acidic before the powder ever goes in. 

Not sure if that couple of minutes makes any real difference or not, just seems a more logical way to do it if the main concern is PH. 

If the primary goal is just a mold retardant then obviously it doesnt matter.


----------



## Greggz

Burr why do I get a feeling I need to be wearing a tin foil hat when I read these latest posts?

I can already feel the brainwash coming over me...........doesn't help I easily succumb to the power of suggestion.

Heck, I might as well get it over with and start rolling my own............it's inevitable now.

Will this planted tank madness never end????:wink2::wink2:


----------



## Immortal1

This is what I am doing to help follow the above posts ;-)


----------



## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> This is what I am doing to help follow the above posts ;-)


Linn LOL.........you hit the nail on the head there..........I believe I am in grave danger of becoming that guy!!! 

But seriously, I love this discussion, and am going to pretend I have the capacity to follow along.:grin2:


----------



## PEdwards

21,488 years according to my calculations. When I was at Brightwell we bought trace elements by the 100 grams for a reason.


----------



## burr740

Might as well look at some pics while waiting on the ferts to come in. :bounce:

05/02 pic for reference



burr740 said:


>


Today




























Nelsonia canescens










Hygrophilla araguaia











Pantanal is looking.....fantastic really. Some of these are side shoots, about half are full stems, 15-16" tall. The tops arent as thick and full as what Ive seen in other people's tank, but for me this is pretty damn good




















Pogo kimberly doing it's thing. Gonna let these new shoots get as tall as possible before replanting.











Variegated macranda looking about as good as it's ever looked in this tank. Does much better in the 50 for some reason.










Hyptis lorentziana is growing well. Wish it'd go a little more purple











Rotala wallichii seems pretty happy. Took last weeks trim in stride without missing a beat











Couple recent gifts from Saxa Tilly

Mini Myrio, took it a few days to even straighten back up. I was beginning to wonder but looks like it might do OK now.











Oh hey little Anubias white something or other! 

Apparently I need to change some settings to photograph a white plant. Looks overexposed but nah, its just white.











How's that for pics @Sean W. !? :red_mouth


----------



## Bunsen Honeydew

Christophe said:


> I did not add vinegar to the test solutions.
> 
> I usually add 10ml white vinegar, the ordinary household strength, 3% or whatever, at the end in making my solutions.
> 
> Maybe that's worth a redo of the tests, to check that solubility in acidic solution.


Vinegar is 5% acidity.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## shamrock62081

Photos are spectacular! In complete awe of your tank right now.


----------



## Sean W.

burr740 said:


> Might as well look at some pics while waiting on the ferts to come in. :bounce:
> 
> 
> 
> How's that for pics @Sean W. !? :red_mouth


Much better  ... But... here we have yet another new page that is severely lacking on the picture front 


Those red Downoi are really doing great. I have moved all of mine to my emersed grow enclosure.


----------



## BettaBettas

Burr;
Tank is looking great as usual, good to see more pictures of it on here now lol !


----------



## Greggz

Stunning pictures as always Burr. 

Like I've said, don't know if makes me want to try harder or quit the hobby!:smile2:

I find the first two interesting showing the growth between pictures. And If my tank looked like that, I wouldn't be worrying about getting micros any better.


----------



## fablau

Wow Burr, your plants look great! Did you keep your usual 0.01 ppm Fe from CSM for the past 2 weeks or you already increased that? Curious....


----------



## fablau

Saxa Tilly said:


> Hey Fab - just reading and watching with an open mind and a hint of skepticism.
> 
> 
> 
> Mind you, I have not dismissed trace tox as hog wash either. Toxicity is a neutral subject with no emotional baggage in terrestrial horticulture. Proponents of aquarium trace tox have polarized the issue, so we have denialists who are equally dug in. This does not advance our hobby. An open mind and a collective willingness to experiment will get us there. I absolutely LOVE the fact that so many of us are willing to tweak, experiment and roll our own ferts to see what works. Even if these are not all perfectly controlled experiments, if hordes of n=1 anecdotes all begin pointing in a general direction, we have something.
> 
> 
> 
> Having played around with my 'Kill Tank' for almost a year, I know that plants look crappy for several reasons. Too much traces is just one reason. CSM+B is a heavy-handed industrial product with a potentially dicey chelator. I can theoretically see it causing problems for people with inert substrates and high degassed pH. The same dose may be far less harmful with aquasoil and pH of 5.5.
> 
> 
> 
> For most people, EDTA is not going to cause issues because of the dose at which it is administered and the regular water changes we all do. EDTA is not villian du jour. But Zorfox definitely has an excellent point/s. FWIW, rolling your own traces is easy enough to do (thanks to Rotalabutterfly) that we can easily try it and share results here soon enough.
> 
> 
> 
> In my Dutch tank, I am going to continue dosing my 3X Burr traces - CSM+B boosted with Fe DTPA and MnSO4. CSM+B is light in the blend, delivering only 0.045 ppm Fe every other day. Tank seems to be doing well.




Thanks Vin for the extensive reply, I am willing to keep experimenting as well, mostly motivated by the fact some of my plants are still not great, so... I am motivated to try new things until I find the right recipe. So, I am open to any new idea that could help me to find the best one!

As for your current dosing in your Dutch tank, I am curious to know why you are adding extra Mn? How much of it?


----------



## burr740

Thanks all ^^



fablau said:


> Wow Burr, your plants look great! Did you keep your usual 0.01 ppm Fe from CSM for the past 2 weeks or you already increased that? Curious....


I went up to around .012 Fe from csmb almost immediately, so yeah about 3 weeks ago, whenever it was. 

DTPA has been .02 on micro days, and several .01s on macro days. Nothing exact and for no particular reason. Did the extra dose a couple times on a whim, everything seemed happy so I kept doing it.

The increase in Fe has definitely seemed to help things. Think it was previously a little low.

This still doesnt explain what happened a few weeks ago, why the sudden increase caused a few plants to freak instead of just getting better, as one would expect. 

Which is another reason I want to find out if the whole EDTA thing is relevant somehow. That, and the fact that micros have always been so wonky for me. 

In theory, it makes a lot of sense and would certainly explain a few things.


----------



## PEdwards

Trying out the Lizard's Tail are you? Have fun with that. Wish I had a picture of the wetland I saw that was covered in acres and acres of the stuff about knee to wait height. Get your scissors ready.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

fablau said:


> Thanks Vin for the extensive reply, I am willing to keep experimenting as well, mostly motivated by the fact some of my plants are still not great, so... I am motivated to try new things until I find the right recipe. So, I am open to any new idea that could help me to find the best one!
> 
> As for your current dosing in your Dutch tank, I am curious to know why you are adding extra Mn? How much of it?


Responded to you here: Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Thanks all ^^
> 
> 
> 
> I went up to around .012 Fe from csmb almost immediately, so yeah about 3 weeks ago, whenever it was.
> 
> DTPA has been .02 on micro days, and several .01s on macro days. Nothing exact and for no particular reason. Did the extra dose a couple times on a whim, everything seemed happy so I kept doing it.
> 
> The increase in Fe has definitely seemed to help things. Think it was previously a little low.
> 
> This still doesnt explain what happened a few weeks ago, why the sudden increase caused a few plants to freak instead of just getting better, as one would expect.
> 
> Which is another reason I want to find out if the whole EDTA thing is relevant somehow. That, and the fact that micros have always been so wonky for me.
> 
> In theory, it makes a lot of sense and would certainly explain a few things.




Well, I am kinda hoping that as well Burr. I will see to open a discussion about all this on the barreport, I'd like to involve Tom on all this


----------



## PEdwards

I move that we create a new standard unit for micro dosing; the Burr. I will bring it before the Planted Aquarium Committee of Weights and Measures and see what they say.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> I move that we create a new standard unit for micro dosing; the Burr. I will bring it before the Planted Aquarium Committee of Weights and Measures and see what they say.


Lol, it still cracks me up whenever somebody refers to the burr method. It seems to be taking a life of it's own now.

I blame Sax because he's the one who started it last year with his Kill Tank journal on BR

Thats also when I realized maybe I wasnt crazy after all. Having a seasoned vet put it to the test did wonders for my self esteem.

Before that I always felt like the weird guy in school getting funny looks from all the cool kids.



Saxa Tilly said:


> Responded to you here: Going Dutch with Aquasoil - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report


Couldnt help but laugh at this post too. If this was a drinking game and the key word was burr Id be drunk as hell right now!


----------



## burr740

Ferts arrived, water changes and big trim complete.

80% is a loooong way down 




















More pics and details shortly


----------



## Dempsey

Looks amazing dude. I love water change shots from above. I that L. Aromatica in the back right? I have been looking for that for a while now...


----------



## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Looks amazing dude. I love water change shots from above. I that L. Aromatica in the back right? I have been looking for that for a while now...


Thanks man. Thats Pogosteman kimberly. Similar to aromatica but twice as big, and more of an olive green/purple color


----------



## Dempsey

Well... I guess THAT will be replacing my spot planned for Aromatica! Please let me know when you do a trim or add me to your waiting list??


----------



## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Well... I guess THAT will be replacing my spot planned for Aromatica! Please let me know when you do a trim or add me to your waiting list??


Will do. 

And just to remind everyone, myself included, it is against the rules to talk sales outside the sale forums.

I dont want to get in trouble so any sales talk should be done via PM.


This isnt directed at you, Clint. Your post just made me think of something I meant to say the other day when a few folks were asking about something.

Kind of a gray area that I'd rather stay on the safe side of.


----------



## Dempsey

Sorry about that! Thanks for the reminder though. I don't want to get you, myself or anyone else in trouble. Either way, That plant is now on my most wanted list. :grin2:


----------



## burr740

*New micros:*

I decided to just copy csmb and mix the first batch according to .015 ppm Fe. The Fe is DTPA, and Mn is jacked to have a 2:1 Fe:Mn ratio. Everything else in the same ppm ratio as csmb,

Im not yet confident enough to put all the Fe in the micro mix. So Im keeping additional Fe/Mn in a separate bottle, just like before. This way I can raise Fe or Traces independently.

Gonna start out dosing micros at .015 Fe, plus .03 ppm dtpa 3x a week. For a total of .045 Fe per dose.

Since the tank levels now are basically zero, yesterday I added 2x macro dose and a couple hours later .03 Fe dtpa. Today was a normal micro dose, tomorrow will be back to a regular macro dose, and so on.

Macros are 7 ppm KNO3, 1 ppm KH2PO4, and enough K2SO4 to make 6 ppm total K, 3x week.

1x week after water changes, 7 ppm Mg and 5 ppm K. The tap has 50 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg.

* @Christophe , I tested first having everything in the same container and saw no precipitation. Using a small glass jar with about 250 ml of distilled water, and 5 ml distilled white vinegar, I put everything but Fe together, using 500 ML amounts and being liberal with it.

The only thing I noticed is it took the Borax a couple hours to fully dissolve. After that it was crystal clear. Let is sit over night and it was still clear today. So Im just going with it like that.


*Also did a pretty big trim:*

Before










After


----------



## Ben Belton

Looks really good.


----------



## Christophe

burr740 said:


> *New micros:*


I'd say you have a green thumb, but there's a much bigger palette here than just green...


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys! ^ 

Hopefully over the next few weeks I can re-focus on the scape side of things. 

Several contrast fails currently, I'll be moving some things around. Have lot of ideas and tentative plans, would also love to hear any from you guys.



















Rotala indica is in desperate need of a rework. That's a project for another day.

Beside that is 3 Ludwigia sphaerocarpas I got from Tom. I tried this plant a couple years ago without much success, it merely survived while looking like crap. Gonna see if it does any better now. I always really like how it looked in Toms tank.

They've been floating in lower light for a couple of weeks, still converting from emergent growth. Was gonna do a bigger line of them but I decided to put the Syn giant front and center. 

I fully expect the Syns to die a slow and painful death, figured the least I could do is put them front and center to make it as honorable as possible.


----------



## burr740

burr740 said:


> Haha, lets see if I can do this right. What'd we say the other day, 10 lifetimes?
> 
> Based on a csmb dose of .015 ppm Fe = .000114855 ppm Mo
> 
> 
> "To reach your target of *0.000114855ppm Mo* you will need to add *5.78 milligrams (equivalent to less than 1/64 tsp)* of Na2MoO4*2H2O to your 500mL dosing container. Add 10mL of that mix to your 105gal aquarium to yield:"
> 
> So 5.78 milligrams = 50 doses, or about 100 days worth
> 
> 453,592 milligrams in a pound
> 
> 453,592 divided by 5.78 = 78,476.1245 batches lasting 100 days each
> 
> So approximately 7,847,600 days worth, divided by 365 = 21,500 years
> 
> LOL that cant be right, somebody check my math


Just to revisit, I still didnt believe it....until I mixed this first batch.

Imagine having a pound of table salt, and using 7-8 single grains every 100 days. 

That's basically what it amounts to


----------



## Tom Barr

I think mostly getting the densities up more for some of these species you have is going to improve the contrast more. 
Syn giants and the Hygro in the front is a good one. 
Downoi, red? 
Erios lineare, they are good against the black gravel. 
UG would be also

I'd try more brighter pinks and reds, white greens and less darker colored plants. 

Ludwigia "red looks good as a row next to Erio lineare. You can trim that to the bone.
It'll come back. 

The spaces between the plant groups, you can use moss on wood or wood to lighten the tank up more if you wish. 
That will cover the dark gravel.

wallichi in the rear, the rugosa in the mid ground. Those two contrast strongly.


----------



## burr740

Tom Barr said:


> I think mostly getting the densities up more for some of these species you have is going to improve the contrast more.
> Syn giants and the Hygro in the front is a good one.
> Downoi, red?
> Erios lineare, they are good against the black gravel.
> UG would be also
> 
> I'd try more brighter pinks and reds, white greens and less darker colored plants.
> 
> Ludwigia "red looks good as a row next to Erio lineare. You can trim that to the bone.
> It'll come back.
> 
> The spaces between the plant groups, you can use moss on wood or wood to lighten the tank up more if you wish.
> That will cover the dark gravel.
> 
> wallichi in the rear, the rugosa in the mid ground. Those two contrast strongly.


Thanks Tom.

Bigger groups/more density is priority number one, along with reducing the total species.

I like the idea of another bright green or two. Planning to try the fuzzy Limno Vin got from Asia in one of the back corners, and probably keep the P erectus in the other corner.

Penthorum is on deck for where the regular Downoi is.

I like bright greens in the corners for the most part, as darker stuff tends to "shrink" a tank down when used in a corner. 

The Diplidis Im going to try as a tall background somewhere. The mini aromatica is turning the same color, so those will probably need to be in opposite sections.

Unless those Buces perk up a lot, and quickly, something else is going on the log, probably a moss


----------



## Opare

I think the groupings and everything look better after the trim. One thing that just stuck out to me is that the R. macrandra and the plant that looks like mint in front of it kind of have similar colours like the shade of pink/purple is a bit samey and they kind of blend in to each other. Also, agree with what Tom was saying some more bright green may help the scape. Tank looks amazing anyway!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dempsey

I hate you. That is all.


Dude, those plants just seem to grow amazing for you and that's why I hate you. :hihi:

I'm starting to wonder if the root tabs are bothering my AR...


----------



## sohankpatel

@burr740 What is this plant?


----------



## Dempsey

Ludwigia inclinata var. Verticillata 'pantanal'


----------



## sohankpatel

Dempsey said:


> Ludwigia inclinata var. Verticillata 'pantanal'


I was going to use it, I have had Pantanal in the past, but my water is too hard or something along those lines and it died. I might give it a shot, but nobody here has been able to grow it in tap.


----------



## Dempsey

sohankpatel said:


> I was going to use it, I have had Pantanal in the past, but my water is too hard or something along those lines and it died. I might give it a shot, but nobody here has been able to grow it in tap.


I grew it in semi hard tap. Burr's water is a tad harder than mine also. It was picky and I never figured out why though... Some weeks it did great and others is went down hill....


----------



## burr740

Preggo Amano in the wallichii


----------



## Dempsey

Nice and healthy. It sucks that they can't breed successfully in fresh water.... Well, I guess they can...the babies just won't survive. 

Off topic; What fert calc(s) do you use?


----------



## Greggz

Dempsey said:


> Nice and healthy. It sucks that they breed successfully in fresh water.... Well, I guess they can...the babies just won't survive.
> 
> Off topic; What fert calc(s) do you use?


He uses the "Burralculator". It's unique in that it's the only one known to use actual magic to perform the calculations.

It's based on the "Burr Method".

Well, not really. But if he comes out with one I'm buying!:grin2:


----------



## Immortal1

"Burr Method" 
I like it. Might have to work on a marketing plan...


----------



## burr740

Well nothing has died yet so that's a relief.

Most everything seems happy. Global pearling has increased, noticed this especially in the smaller tanks.

However, a couple things didnt like it at first, 

Pantanal is looking rough again. It probably wasnt the best time for this to get trimmed and have nutrients taken away for a few days, but here we are...











One we havent talked much about is Ludwigia brevipes. Its been a drama free plant so far, nice brown color, kinda branchy.

During the first couple of days it developed these white, necrotic looking patches near the tops. Seems to be moving past it though.











Also the Red Downoi lost a little color.


I believe all this just deficiencies from nutrients being reset to zero, and then taking a few doses to build back up. At least that's what Im telling myself. 

The Syn giants are pale and generally looking rough. Probably gonna move these to the 50 and move on to something else in the foreground here.










Diplidis is happy











FTS from during last night, notice several plants are closed up











Water change tomorrow, gonna tweak the right side a little bit.


----------



## Sean W.

Im really digging the P. Red and what looks like the Limnophila hippuridoides mini bush next to them. 

The tall straggly green plant immediately behind the P red is ruining that side of the tank imo... 

Always love the FTS! Looks great!


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> The tall straggly green plant immediately behind the P red is ruining that side of the tank imo...


Lizard's tail, is just growing out for a couple of weeks. It's too leggy and fast to be a permanent addition.

The previous moss log is going back right there


----------



## Greggz

Burr is that the Limnophila aromatica "Mini" in the front left corner? In the close up shot, it looks yellow. In the FTS, it looks you are getting some pink coming out????

And tank is looking great as always. Can never see enough pictures of it!


----------



## clownplanted

I don't think you need to change anything. I would love to have a tank that looked just like yours. Simply amazing. All the colors blend together perfectly IMO.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr is that the Limnophila aromatica "Mini" in the front left corner? In the close up shot, it looks yellow. In the FTS, it looks you are getting some pink coming out????
> 
> And tank is looking great as always. Can never see enough pictures of it!


Thanks Greggz, that's a nighttime pic, the plant was closed up showing the red underside of the leaves.

Daytime it looks like this











This was 4am, in the middle of their "night" 











Speaking of closing up, a few of the Pantanals arent. Thats never a good sign. 

They havent been planted long or I'd just whack the tops off. The only hope for these is new side shoots


----------



## Axelrodi202

burr740 said:


> Speaking of closing up, a few of the Pantanals arent. Thats never a good sign.


I've noticed that too! Nyctinasty in species that display it is a very good indicator of health.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Thanks Greggz, that's a nighttime pic, the plant was closed up showing the red underside of the leaves.
> 
> Daytime it looks like this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was 4am, in the middle of their "night"


Aha.....thanks I should have figured that out. 

Mine has been propagating, now about 20 plants or so. They look very healthy, but not getting as yellow as yours, and not much pink. Makes me wonder if I need to run all 6 bulbs a little longer?

By the way, the Macranda Var. has been the best surprise. Doing really well and up to about 8 plants now. Thanks again for that one.


----------



## Tom Barr

Moss on the log or Riccardia, that's relatively easy, handles wide range of light, sells well, slow growing. 
Mini Xmas moss, Fissiden types. 

There are a few epiphytic species, smaller ferns, a Podostemacea, and a few others. 
Yellow ammania might also, if it'll survive in the tank. 
Pinks, the Bacopa and Pink Flamingo would work on other sides of the tank. 

That pantanal just does not like you
Weedy as hell, but not here. 

I've run it without any traces other than old soil for months. Still looks real nice. 
The pink Bacopa I'd work with here. 

Trim the Ludwigia red down lower, keep it there, mow like a lawn. It'll stay there and it is quick and easy. If you want the section to look good all the time, uproot, replant the tops. But that is more work. 

The downoi, might make that a larger section. 
You can place the Buce under the log in the shade, they should do well there. Then moss the log.


----------



## burr740

So two of the Pantanal made it through without needing to be topped. All the rest have been topped and are throwing out new stems.

Notice the diameter of these two change about 3" down. It's definitely happier now.










Using csmb as a reference for non-Fe micros, dosing this week has been .03 csmb and .02 dtpa. plus an extra .015 dose on most macro days... just for the hell of it.

That's over 4 times the micros I was dosing a couple months ago. And we all know what happened when I tried to increase them from .01 to .015.

Of course in reality the dosing looks something like this. There's no csmb, and no edta

Fe .1 ppm
Mn .05 ppm
B .0062 ppm 
Zn .0028 ppm
Mo .00039 ppm
Cu .00069 ppm

Except not quite as much total Fe...yet. 

That's single doses, 3x week


Added more L sphaerocarpa. It's probably not going to stay right here, unless 6-8" stems dont mind getting topped and replanted down to 2-3" ones. We'll see




















Mini myrio is trying it's best to earn a spot on the varsity team. 











Hyptis actually lost color for about a week. Seems to be coming back now, probably just needs more micros and/or Fe











L brevipes hasnt exactly exploded but it's looking better, still kinda pale











And finally here's a crappy fts just to show the lay of the land currently. Gonna move a few things around before the next water change.


----------



## Sean W.

Those P. Red are next level!

Here is mine, I moved all mine into my emersed enclosure. they are responding really well


----------



## SKYE.__.HIGH

Hello, love your tank so much, wish I had a green thumb like that. Also what is this type of plant


----------



## Sean W.

SKYE.__.HIGH said:


> Hello, love your tank so much, wish I had a green thumb like that. Also what is this type of plant


Thats Rotala Indica AKA Ammania Sp. Bonsai.


----------



## burr740

Dat pantanal


----------



## Greggz

Congratulations Burr!! One demon defeated......for now anyway.>

You thinking it has anything to do with your new micro brew??

And are you propagating like any other stem? 

Mine were very weak at first but are slowly getting better. Doubled in size, looking a lot like your smaller ones. I'm hoping at some point they take off like yours finally did.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Congratulations Burr!! One demon defeated......for now anyway.>
> 
> You thinking it has anything to do with your new micro brew??
> 
> And are you propagating like any other stem?
> 
> Mine were very weak at first but are slowly getting better. Doubled in size, looking a lot like your smaller ones. I'm hoping at some point they take off like yours finally did.


Absolutely think its from the higher micro dosing. Could be a combination of getting rid of the edta too. 

Either way, ditching the edta has allowed me to dose a lot more than before.


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## Sean W.

Can I have a close up of the p. Red plz 😁


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## burr740

Sean W. said:


> Can I have a close up of the p. Red plz 😁


Not much has changed from 3 days ago. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...120-gal-dutchy-freestyle-23.html#post10240897


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## Sean W.

Closer! Haha


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## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> Absolutely think its from the higher micro dosing. Could be a combination of getting rid of the edta too.
> 
> Either way, ditching the edta has allowed me to dose a lot more than before.


Damn dude, that's a huge improvement. They look awesome! 

For the most part, your macros are still close it EI though, aren't they?


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## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Damn dude, that's a huge improvement. They look awesome!
> 
> For the most part, your macros are still close it EI though, aren't they?


Definitely the best this plant has ever looked for me. Now if it'll just stay that way. :icon_eek:

Macros are exactly EI - 7.5/1.3/6 NPK, plus another 5 ppm K at water change.


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## Dempsey

I'm hoping the best for You! Then I can copy your methods. 😉

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


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## freshwater1

burr740 said:


> So two of the Pantanal made it through without needing to be topped. All the rest have been topped and are throwing out new stems.
> 
> Notice the diameter of these two change about 3" down. It's definitely happier now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using csmb as a reference for non-Fe micros, dosing this week has been .03 csmb and .02 dtpa. plus an extra .015 dose on most macro days... just for the hell of it.
> 
> That's over 4 times the micros I was dosing a couple months ago. And we all know what happened when I tried to increase them from .01 to .015.
> 
> Of course in reality the dosing looks something like this. There's no csmb, and no edta
> 
> Fe .1 ppm
> Mn .05 ppm
> B .0062 ppm
> Zn .0028 ppm
> Mo .00039 ppm
> Cu .00069 ppm
> 
> Except not quite as much total Fe...yet.
> 
> That's single doses, 3x week
> 
> 
> Added more L sphaerocarpa. It's probably not going to stay right here, unless 6-8" stems dont mind getting topped and replanted down to 2-3" ones. We'll see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Mini myrio is trying it's best to earn a spot on the varsity team.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Hyptis actually lost color for about a week. Seems to be coming back now, probably just needs more micros and/or Fe
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> L brevipes hasnt exactly exploded but it's looking better, still kinda pale
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And finally here's a crappy fts just to show the lay of the land currently. Gonna move a few things around before the next water change.



Absolutely stunning tank! Keep up the good work! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## awesometim1

Amazing tank... so many hard to keep plants in one tank!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dempsey

@burr740 Sorry if I missed it... Are you doing 50% water changes per week or more? The reason I ask is, I do 80%ish. I'm just trying figure out if you have a tad more residual ferts than I would after a WC.


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## burr740

Dempsey said:


> @*burr740* Sorry if I missed it... Are you doing 50% water changes per week or more? The reason I ask is, I do 80%ish. I'm just trying figure out if you have a tad more residual ferts than I would after a WC.


I think 80% is too much unless a) you're trying to get rid of something, or reset the water column, or b) you compensate by dosing heavily once or twice a week.

Take Tom Barr's routine for example, he doses what appears to be an extreme amount of macros, like 15-20 ppm NO3, 5 ppm PO3 - but he also does two 70-80% water changes per week. (at least this was the last thing I read he was doing) 

So on the surface it sounds like he's dosing whopping amounts, but not really because he's nearly resetting the water column with every water change, and only dosing once or twice between them.

*Those numbers and percents may not be exactly what he does (or was doing) but you get the idea.

All that really matters is the total concentrations in the water column at any given point, regardless of how it gets there.

Both Zorfox and rotalabutterfly calculators can figure accumulation based on dosing amounts and water changes.

You can play around with that to see how a particular dosing/water change schedule impacts what's actually in the water.

You want to minimize the gap between 'peak' and 'trough' levels as much as possible. Or at least not have either one go too far, for too long.

If you're following a standard EI routine, dosing 3 times between water changes, my personal opinion is that 50-60% is probably best.


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## Dempsey

Maybe that's also been on of my problems... This will save me on RO water also by going 50% changes. I will give this a shot. Thanks again man!


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## burr740

Random pics from today


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## Immortal1

Always amazed at the variety of colors and textures in your tank.


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## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> Always amazed at the variety of colors and textures in your tank.


Linn I am running out of superlatives for Burr's tank. I actually had to go the thesaurus and look for new compliments............so today's is..........Stupendous!!:wink2::wink2:

Now I gotta go start searching for another one for the next batch of pictures.


----------



## burr740

Micros are going on two weeks @ .05 csmb and .04 dtpa. of course there is no csmb that's just a reference comparison for the non-Fe micros.

Most everything is fairly happy...to downright ecstatic. 

*Some pleasant surprises;*

AR min leaves are still perfectly flat in the 20 gal.

Persicaria 'pink' and 'sao paulo' have gotten a lot bigger in the 50, both have nice straight leaves.

Proserpinaca palustris (mermaid weed) is thriving again.

R macranda variegated is looking good in both tanks.

Those are all common issues and plants which I always used to pin on "high micros". It's looking like micros alone are not as a big of a factor as I thought.

*But all is not rosey;*

Lost two more Pogo kimberly in the 120. The tips shriveled up and I just yanked them out instead of topping. Got several in the 50 doing well so Im not too worried about it.

The Diplidis is unhappy for the past 3-4 days. It's subtle, probably cant notice anything in pics but I can tell.

P erectus in the 120, no stunting tips, but a few stems are getting some gda, at least I think that's what it is, might be bba or something else. That's the sign of an unhappy plant.

And finally, L pantanal is in the [censored][censored][censored][censored]ter again. Saw this coming a few days ago. Started just before the trim/replant so I dont think it's anything to do with trimming.

3-4 days ago, can notice the two big stems and a couple at bottom right looking bad.










Today











Sort of at a crossroads now with how to proceed. In the past I'd chalk this up to micros, back them down a little, and things would get better.

This may be what I do, go down to .04/.02 or something like that.

Old school logic says it must be deficiencies, since micros cannot be "bad" - especially at my levels.

Following this train of thought I should just increase the dose until all these symptoms go away. 

I might try this too, since many of the typical "high micro" issues are non-existent. It could stand to reason that Ive recently cured a few deficiencies, and as you cure one or two, one or two others pop up. 

I can see micros in general being in this state given the supremely low levels Ive been using.

Probably going to resist the urge to cut micros back, and keep pressing on, maybe even a little higher. Then, if 'too much" is the problem things should get dramatically worse.


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## burr740

To stump or not to stump, that is the question. 

This is the same log that had the Buces, just turned on it's side










Fissidens fox on the little branch. It looks rough but maybe it'll perk up. Guy said it was grown low-tech....looks half dead to me.


Moved the Mini Myrio to the front right corner. Think that'll be a good look once it gets some height. 










Also restarted the AR variegated. It hasnt grown much height in several weeks, leaves were very tight and severely undulated. Well see how this batch grows out.




















Side view where I had both branches on the same side, pretty good look.











I'll not be getting crazy with branches. Just want two or three to compliment the stump. Where they look like a part of it, and therefore broaden it's presence.

I dont like arbitrary branches used just to divide plants - when it's obvious that's all they're doing. Every branch should "belong" to the hardscape, and be significant.


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> To stump or not to stump, that is the question.
> 
> This is the same log that had the Buces, just turned on it's side


Burr I like the stump. I think a little hard scape is a good thing and adds some character.

Funny I just posted about my Pantanal, and it looks like it still gives you fits sometimes.

I'm amazed your Bacopa Colorata has so much color all the way down the plant. Mine gets nice peach colored tips, but the lower part is still green. 

And I am finding your micro experiment pretty fascinating. Keep up the reports, and I'm curious to see if there is a conclusion anywhere there.


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr I like the stump. I think a little hard scape is a good thing and adds some character.
> 
> Funny I just posted about my Pantanal, and it looks like it still gives you fits sometimes.
> 
> I'm amazed your Bacopa Colorata has so much color all the way down the plant. Mine gets nice peach colored tips, but the lower part is still green.
> 
> And I am finding your micro experiment pretty fascinating. Keep up the reports, and I'm curious to see if there is a conclusion anywhere there.


As far as Pantanal I really have no idea, but I dont *think* it's necessarily nutrient related.

Im actually questioning my co2. Instead of assuming that a 1.1 drop at lights on, and 1.3 at peak - is enough, I took my own advice to crank it up until the fish show signs of discomfort, then back it down a little where they are happy again.

This has it dropping 1.2 by lights on and damn near 1.5 at peak. It's only been a couple days but global pearling increased dramatically. So that right there tells me CO2 was limited before, if only a little bit.

As far as conclusions getting rid of EDTA, there's already quite a few. Im adding 3x more micros than Ive been able to dose in the last two years.

Several species have made a dramatic change. Check out this mermaid weed for example. It's never looked like this, as you know from our past conversations about it










Havent posted much about Persicarias in this thread. Have both the pink and sao paulo in the 50. These two plants have always been a hair trigger when it comes to micros. At the least little increase, the newest leaves curl up badly. It's nothing for them to do a complete 360, and become mangled in the process. 

Since the new micros, both have gotten bigger diameter-wise, and there's no curling leaves. Here's the pink, from leaf tip to leaf tip is about 7"











Those are just two examples. Other notorious "micro-sensitive" plants are still doing as well if not better, and if you'd seen what Ive been watching over the past couple of years, that's nothing short of a miracle! Plants like Rotala macs, wallichii and sunset, AR mini, just to name a few.

So it's already been a resounding success if you ask me. Now it's just a matter of finding a sweet spot that everything likes.


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## Dempsey

It's funny... If you look at my journal in the early years, I dosed a butt ton of micro's. More than most. Much more. I did pretty well but I did have some problem plants like pantanal and AR. When they grew well, they grew great! With little to no change, they would take a turn for the worse. AR has always been my achilles heel. If I can get this to grow well for me now with RO and dosing less micro's, I will need to find and imoji for "mic drop".

I guess some plants are just more sensitive.

You tank is still looking amazing to me!


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Im actually questioning my co2. Instead of assuming that a 1.1 drop at lights on, and 1.3 at peak - is enough, I took my own advice to crank it up until the fish show signs of discomfort, then back it down a little where they are happy again.
> 
> This has it dropping 1.2 by lights on and damn near 1.5 at peak. It's only been a couple days but global pearling increased dramatically. So that right there tells me CO2 was limited before, if only a little bit.


Burr that's interesting. That is exactly where mine is, 1.5 drop at peak. Lots of surface agitation and fish are fine. If I turn it down, say to a 1.0 point drop, I notice a negative reaction right away. 



burr740 said:


> Several species have made a dramatic change. Check out this mermaid weed for example. It's never looked like this, as you know from our past conversations about it


Once again that is really interesting. That leaf shape suddenly looks a lot more like mine. Will be interesting to see what is does from here. Mine's a weed that gets more orange as it gets near the surface. The tops can get about 4" to 5" across.


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## burr740

Another plant that's made a dramatic change is Staurogyne purple in the 20 gal. It's gotten bigger and growing more vertical like a regular stem plant, and it's actually getting purple. 

Light here is two T8s about 45 par at the substrate.


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## Dempsey

What is the photo period on your tanks?


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## burr740

Dempsey said:


> What is the photo period on your tanks?


The 20 gal runs for 9 hours, the other three all run for 8.

I really need to get around to wiring a second power cord in the 120's six bulb unit. That way I could start with only four bulbs for an hour or so on both ends of the photo period. 

The way it is now goes from nothing to full blast for 8 hours straight. :icon_eek:


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## Greggz

Burr I dug up this photo from awhile back. It's what prompted our discussion of Mermaid Weed. I thought for sure we had completely different species, but might have to rethink that. Crazy change.


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## BayazGouramiz

Damn Burr your plants are amazing still.... I cant believe you have so many tanks and they are all so freaking clean..... Like wtf lol. Everything you do is super important, but the level of cleanliness is inspiring. My tanks start to struggle and its because of lack of maintenance. Like every tank i see that is amazing is clean. Like I'm not sure if I can even see on spec of detritus lol. 

That plant with the purple hue on the left side of one of your tanks with all the Pantanal is amazing. Your Diandra looks great too. Mine looks decent, but not near as thick. Jeez here we go again trying to describe the thickness of your stems compared to mine. I'm going to try and keep my tank not so grown out as its much harder to manage and gets dirty then all hell breaks loose. I currently have been battling green water cuz of a rescape and nothing would get rid of it. Co2 cranked, water changes, vacuuming for days, cleaning filters etc. So I had to buy a UV sterilizer for the first time in 3 years. I think it was a combination of things but I think the increase in temperature doent help.


----------



## Omar EAZi

Dude the your tank is just insane, every time I come to this post, I can't resist but to start from OP and go through all the posts just to see your plants growing over and over with all the bright colors and healthy grow.
I'm having a little bit of issue choosing a light, I think you'll really be able to help me, I'm doing a 120P ADA tank, I wanna do something similar to your tank except the front side will be mostly carpet, so let's say 50% carpet and 50% mixed colored plants.
What light do you suggest, I was thinking of the Planted+ 24/7 ES, but I think for someone as you, you're probably laughing at me by now lol!! I see how you've chosen your lights wisely, that demands atleast a basic knowledge of difference between lights and all which I lack to understand despite me trying to read about it and see videos explaining it, but it's just not my sort of field of understanding. what would you suggest for me to pick?!

Btw, I check this list of yours on amazon:
TrueLumen Flora
Agrobrite 6400K
Zoo-med Flora
Plantmax 3000K
ATI Purple
TrueLumen Flora

but couldn't seem to find these lights on amazon, except for Plantmax 3000k and it was a 2' size.
where can I find these lights at?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr I dug up this photo from awhile back. It's what prompted our discussion of Mermaid Weed. I thought for sure we had completely different species, but might have to rethink that. Crazy change.


Crazy huh. The strangest thing is they've never looked like this for me in 3 years, always had the real spikey leaves.

It's always been a plant sensitive to micros, but there've been long periods of time where it's done really well. But still always the spikey leaves.



BayazGouramiz said:


> Damn Burr your plants are amazing still.... I cant believe you have so many tanks and they are all so freaking clean..... Like wtf lol. Everything you do is super important, but the level of cleanliness is inspiring. My tanks start to struggle and its because of lack of maintenance. Like every tank i see that is amazing is clean. Like I'm not sure if I can even see on spec of detritus lol.
> 
> That plant with the purple hue on the left side of one of your tanks with all the Pantanal is amazing. Your Diandra looks great too. Mine looks decent, but not near as thick. Jeez here we go again trying to describe the thickness of your stems compared to mine. I'm going to try and keep my tank not so grown out as its much harder to manage and gets dirty then all hell breaks loose. I currently have been battling green water cuz of a rescape and nothing would get rid of it. Co2 cranked, water changes, vacuuming for days, cleaning filters etc. So I had to buy a UV sterilizer for the first time in 3 years. I think it was a combination of things but I think the increase in temperature doent help.


Thanks man.

Clean conditions will cover a multitude of other errors. Funny thing is I really dont do anything special. Regular wekly water changes, keep filters clean (and they're not always as clean as they should be) and make a point to remove dead or dying leaves whenever I see them.

As for the substrate, I cant remember the last time I so much as skimmed the surface with a vacuum. Literally never in this tank. Early in the 75's day I used to do that a lot, so 3 years ago maybe.

I think having strong filters and good circulation pretty much takes care of gunk on the substrate.



Omar EAZi said:


> Dude the your tank is just insane, every time I come to this post, I can't resist but to start from OP and go through all the posts just to see your plants growing over and over with all the bright colors and healthy grow.
> I'm having a little bit of issue choosing a light, I think you'll really be able to help me, I'm doing a 120P ADA tank, I wanna do something similar to your tank except the front side will be mostly carpet, so let's say 50% carpet and 50% mixed colored plants.
> What light do you suggest, I was thinking of the Planted+ 24/7 ES, but I think for someone as you, you're probably laughing at me by now lol!! I see how you've chosen your lights wisely, that demands atleast a basic knowledge of difference between lights and all which I lack to understand despite me trying to read about it and see videos explaining it, but it's just not my sort of field of understanding. what would you suggest for me to pick?!
> 
> Btw, I check this list of yours on amazon:
> TrueLumen Flora
> Agrobrite 6400K
> Zoo-med Flora
> Plantmax 3000K
> ATI Purple
> TrueLumen Flora
> 
> but couldn't seem to find these lights on amazon, except for Plantmax 3000k and it was a 2' size.
> where can I find these lights at?


Thanks for the kind words, Im glad you like the journal. 

That 120p is 48x18x18 inches, right? A six bulb unit would be way too much unless you raise it like two feet or something. Even if you go with a 4 bulb unit, plan on raising it a foot or so. These lights are powerful.

The TruLumen Floras I get from Dr fosters & Smith, 10 bucks, they also have the ZM Floras.

The Plantmax and Agrobrite are hydroponic brands. These came with the light, but you should be able to find them from a Grower's Supply place. Google around a bit.

I really dont know much about LEDs, but that 24/7 might be just right for your tank if it's capable of 60 par or so at that height. Should be easy to find a par chart. 

If you do go with an LED, just make sure you get one with a lot of red bulbs in the mix (like the 24/7). Ones that have all or mostly 6500Ks are not going to have very good color rendition, or do a good job with colorful plant species. 

The tank will be a lot more manageable with less light. A 4 bulb T5HO unit even raised a foot is going to have you in the 100+ range, easily. Things are going to move a whole lot faster at that level, both good things and bad.

60-70 par will grow just about anything well, and be a lot more forgiving in the process


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Crazy huh. The strangest thing is they've never looked like this for me in 3 years, always had the real spikey leaves.
> 
> It's always been a plant sensitive to micros, but there've been long periods of time where it's done really well. But still always the spikey leaves.


Makes you wonder what other changes you will see? I am liking this experiment, really very, very interesting.



burr740 said:


> The tank will be a lot more manageable with less light. A 4 bulb T5HO unit even raised a foot is going to have you in the 100+ range, easily. Things are going to move a whole lot faster at that level, both good things and bad.
> 
> 60-70 par will grow just about anything well, and be a lot more forgiving in the process


Less light??? Where is the fun in that Burr?? You know yourself you are not having fun unless you are flying close to the sun (yes, pun intended!).

But good advice nonetheless!


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Thanks for the kind words, Im glad you like the journal.
> 
> That 120p is 48x18x18 inches, right? A six bulb unit would be way too much unless you raise it like two feet or something. Even if you go with a 4 bulb unit, plan on raising it a foot or so. These lights are powerful.
> 
> The TruLumen Floras I get from Dr fosters & Smith, 10 bucks, they also have the ZM Floras.
> 
> The Plantmax and Agrobrite are hydroponic brands. These came with the light, but you should be able to find them from a Grower's Supply place. Google around a bit.
> 
> I really dont know much about LEDs, but that 24/7 might be just right for your tank if it's capable of 60 par or so at that height. Should be easy to find a par chart.
> 
> If you do go with an LED, just make sure you get one with a lot of red bulbs in the mix (like the 24/7). Ones that have all or mostly 6500Ks are not going to have very good color rendition, or do a good job with colorful plant species.
> 
> The tank will be a lot more manageable with less light. A 4 bulb T5HO unit even raised a foot is going to have you in the 100+ range, easily. Things are going to move a whole lot faster at that level, both good things and bad.
> 
> 60-70 par will grow just about anything well, and be a lot more forgiving in the process


Thanks for the advice burr, seems like T5HO fixtures won't suit me then since I can't hang them up in the place I'll be having a tank, unless I can fix them to a stand of some sort and hang the fixture off the stand, otherwise they'll have to rest on the tank itself, and in that case I think the PARs will be flying to 120+ range on my 45cm(18" as you mentioned) height tank. 
from your point of view it seems like the 24/7 will be a decent light for my size of tank, but will it give me all the colors+pars required?, I was checking out the Fluval Fresh & Planted 2.0, it seems to have a bit higher PARs than finnex and Current Satellite + Pro. I just can't seem to make my mind on this! I think I'll have my tank empty and standing there for a very long time lol. 
Tell me what you think will be best and I'll go by that, I've read your post(A Thread For T5HO Bulb Comparisons), and I trust your light knowledge, I really want to try the fixture with different light bulbs, but I'm just not sure if I'll be able to find a stand to get it hanged off of it.
Thanks Burr!

Edit, btw check this out, I found this, will this be something usable on my tank? https://professionalgardening.com/ProductDetail/342210_Pro-Light-T5-Ho-Stand


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## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> Thanks for the advice burr, seems like T5HO fixtures won't suit me then since I can't hang them up in the place I'll be having a tank, unless I can fix them to a stand of some sort and hang the fixture off the stand, otherwise they'll have to rest on the tank itself, and in that case I think the PARs will be flying to 120+ range on my 45cm(18" as you mentioned) height tank.
> from your point of view it seems like the 24/7 will be a decent light for my size of tank, but will it give me all the colors+pars required?, I was checking out the Fluval Fresh & Planted 2.0, it seems to have a bit higher PARs than finnex and Current Satellite + Pro. I just can't seem to make my mind on this! I think I'll have my tank empty and standing there for a very long time lol.
> Tell me what you think will be best and I'll go by that, I've read your post(A Thread For T5HO Bulb Comparisons), and I trust your light knowledge, I really want to try the fixture with different light bulbs, but I'm just not sure if I'll be able to find a stand to get it hanged off of it.
> Thanks Burr!
> 
> Edit, btw check this out, I found this, will this be something usable on my tank? https://professionalgardening.com/ProductDetail/342210_Pro-Light-T5-Ho-Stand


That stand will work just fine. 

Another thing to consider with the T5 raised up so high, like 12"-18" which is what you'll need, there's going to be a LOT of light spilling out in the room/your eyes. Some people do not mind this, I personally dont like it. That's why I have two ancillary panels going across the front of mine.

Just to give you an idea, my old 75 gal with a 4 bulb raised 28" from the substrate, PAR was around 120 at the sub. So you'll need to plan on hanging the light a minimum of 30" from the substrate, 36" would probably be better. 

On LEDs, The 24/7 is adjustable so you can change the colors. The only question is will it be bright enough. There's a couple threads on it, Im sure you could find the info there.

The Fluval Fresh and Plant 2.0 is (I believe) a little more powerful. Has decent reds, and you can dim it if need be.

Not sure what your budget is, but you could also add a Finnex Monster Ray to compliment the main led. It's red, and doesnt increase par a whole lot. It would help give the color rendition you're looking for.

You also need to consider the spread of these leds. Your tank is front to back 18". A single led probably wont cover the entire tank. This is where my led knowledge falls short, some have better spread than others. But when you increase the spread, you sacrifice intensity.

Two 24/7s or two Fluvals might be your best option. There's a couple threads around here on the Fluval too. And some knowledgeable led folks who could give better advice on that than me.

But a 4 bulb T5HO using that stand will be great. Just wanted you to consider the light spill and how high it's going to be before taking the final plunge.


----------



## clownplanted

Omar EAZi said:


> Thanks for the advice burr, seems like T5HO fixtures won't suit me then since I can't hang them up in the place I'll be having a tank, unless I can fix them to a stand of some sort and hang the fixture off the stand, otherwise they'll have to rest on the tank itself, and in that case I think the PARs will be flying to 120+ range on my 45cm(18" as you mentioned) height tank.
> from your point of view it seems like the 24/7 will be a decent light for my size of tank, but will it give me all the colors+pars required?, I was checking out the Fluval Fresh & Planted 2.0, it seems to have a bit higher PARs than finnex and Current Satellite + Pro. I just can't seem to make my mind on this! I think I'll have my tank empty and standing there for a very long time lol.
> Tell me what you think will be best and I'll go by that, I've read your post(A Thread For T5HO Bulb Comparisons), and I trust your light knowledge, I really want to try the fixture with different light bulbs, but I'm just not sure if I'll be able to find a stand to get it hanged off of it.
> Thanks Burr!
> 
> Edit, btw check this out, I found this, will this be something usable on my tank? https://professionalgardening.com/ProductDetail/342210_Pro-Light-T5-Ho-Stand


Hi,

I suggest you open up a new thread in the lightning section for LED lighting options. I have a par meter and did some readings in a finnex planted 24/7 and also a couple beamswork fixtures. I happen to run a Finnex planted 24/7 and a Beamswork DHL 1W 6500k on my high tech 60 gallon high tank and it gives me great spread and debth which I think is what you are looking for. I am very happy with the results of these two lights. Here are the links to give you some par data and some comparison pics of them lighting my tank.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...24-7-planted-par-lux-kelvin-pur-readings.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...-fspec-dhl-6500k-par-lux-kelvin-pur-data.html

Sorry @burr740 not trying to mess up your amazing journal thread just trying to help the guy.


----------



## burr740

clownplanted said:


> Sorry @*burr740* not trying to mess up your amazing journal thread just trying to help the guy.


No worries mate, everyone can feel free to talk about whatever here.


----------



## clownplanted

burr740 said:


> No worries mate, everyone can feel free to talk about whatever here.


Awesome thank you. Your tank is absolutely incredible. Will you be entering it in any contests? You really should consider it.


----------



## burr740

clownplanted said:


> Awesome thank you. Your tank is absolutely incredible. Will you be entering it in any contests? You really should consider it.


Thanks man. It's a LONG way from competition ready at this point. Depending how it goes between now and Sept, I may put it in the AGA Dutch category.

Real Dutch tanks are becoming fewer and fewer these days, even though mine falls short of a few criteria, like a planted back and sides, most of the other entries do too.

I wouldnt expect to win or even place really, especially if some of the Masters like Bart Lauren submit their tanks this year. But it'd be interesting to get feedback from judges comments.


----------



## Omar EAZi

Thanks for all the feed back and advice @burr740 , I'll see what I decide to do in the coming few days! @clownplanted I checked the data just now, thanks for the info.


----------



## Irishirie

*hmm*



burr740 said:


> Thanks man. For whatever reason, as long as the plants are healthy and I keep things clean, there's little algae to speak of.
> 
> Now, there's definitely some algae in the tank. A bit of dust here and there, especially if I dont wipe the front glass for 2-3 weeks. And any plants which happen to be struggling get algae on the old growth, bba, gsa, etc.
> 
> Also funny thing, whenever I uproot/replant the Lobelia, which is about every 4-6 weeks, for the first week or so the bottom leaves get some gsa or bba (hard to tell, just sorta darkish speckles) Sometimes pretty bad, but then it goes away after a couple of weeks. I used to freak out until I realized the plant could take care of itself.
> 
> 
> 
> Greggz, the light has two switches, one for the outer 4, and one for the inner 2.....but only one power cord.
> 
> So yeah it goes from nothing to full blast, then back to nothing. Comes on at noon, goes off at 8:30.
> 
> Coming on at noon, there's a few hours of ambient light for the livestock to wake up. So that's good, I suppose.
> 
> Ive been meaning to get in there and wire in a second power cord so two can come on then four, or vice versa, but I just havent done it yet. Im not much of an electrician but I have instructions how to do it (assuming it'll work)
> 
> Mostly laziness, but also I dont have a spare light in case something screws up. So Im a little apprehensive to try it, but...mostly laziness.
> 
> Also have two LED strip lights attached to the edges of the T5 for night viewing. They light up the tank enough to see and enjoy it, while not even registering on the PAR meter (in the water).
> 
> Had to brighten the pic up a little, this is pretty close to how it looks in person. Also there's a lot of shimmer which is pretty cool.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Sean W. that's a pretty good look my friend
> 
> 
> 
> Fine by me because I love talking bulbs!



burr, I just had a similar (if not the same) light fixture delivered and set it up last week. So far, I'm loving the Agrobrite 6-bulb t5 unit. On my 75 it does put out a lot, and ironically enough when i replant my L. Cardinalis i encounter the same thing with the lower leaves... 


I get dusty algae on the glass too, but nothing a quick brushing won't remove. 

Any issues with your unit yet other than no light to full blast to start photoperiod?

How did you attach the LEDS to the unit? By what method did you attach ancillary panels to the unit? 


Look forward to your response!


----------



## burr740

Irishirie said:


> burr, I just had a similar (if not the same) light fixture delivered and set it up last week. So far, I'm loving the Agrobrite 6-bulb t5 unit. On my 75 it does put out a lot, and ironically enough when i replant my L. Cardinalis i encounter the same thing with the lower leaves...
> 
> 
> I get dusty algae on the glass too, but nothing a quick brushing won't remove.
> 
> Any issues with your unit yet other than no light to full blast to start photoperiod?
> 
> How did you attach the LEDS to the unit? By what method did you attach ancillary panels to the unit?
> 
> 
> Look forward to your response!


Well my mounting brackets are rather primitive, two 1x8s screwed together and painted black. :red_mouth

The LEDs are these Marineland submersible things.

https://www.amazon.com/Marineland-Hidden-Strip-Light-17-Inch/dp/B0081FXWF6

I traded some stuff with a friend for them. No way Id pay that retail price!

Anyway I just drilled some holes in the plastic piece and screwed them up high to the wooden mounting bracket.

You can sorta see it here










On the old 75 I actually drilled a hole in the underside of the light itself, and screwed them directly on the back edge going left to right. 

The "light blockers" are two pieces of aluminum siding trim coil, with hemmed edges that I made myself.

Basically just two pieces of lightweight metal painted black. The bottom edge sits on the inside of the tank's frame, and the top leans over and rests against the light. 

Can slide them back and forth, or easily just lift them off.


----------



## Omar EAZi

Updates on the tank?! I wish I could find all these plants here in Dubai.. I'm starting my tank soon and trying to gather plants from here and there, but we don't have that much of a variety here!


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> Updates on the tank?!


A mid-week past time for a trim groups looking scraggly update?? Well, OK










This from a couple days ago. It's hard to tell just how thick this clump of mini aromatica is










This morning was finally able to re-home about 25 stems, naturally I plucked out the best ones.










This weekend before the water change I'll either top and replant whats left, or go ahead and replace it with Penthorum sediodes. That's gonna happen eventually, just a matter of when. May let it grow out one more round

A few Acmella have broken the surface. Should've trimmed it last weekend but the damn pantanal is still in the way (the plan is to move it forward a little bit)










Once again Ive lopped off the bad tops and new stems are coming in nice. These should be big enough to move by the weekend. This plant is headed to the 50 so I can focus on actually scaping the left middle here.











Fissidens is starting to come out nice, had me worried there for a couple of weeks.











Thats all for now. Big trim and some rearranging on tap for this weekend


----------



## Omar EAZi

looking amazing as usual!! I set up my tank today, doesn't look half good as urs does lol


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> looking amazing as usual!! I set up my tank today, doesn't look half good as urs does lol


It looks like a discombobulated cluster funk to me right now, but thanks for the compliment. 

Im sure yours will get there. You have some nice looking stet-ups.


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> It looks like a discombobulated cluster funk


Lol that's one hell of a description!! :grin2: btw you good with pumps?


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> btw you good with pumps?


Well I cant always do as many as I would like, but the ones I do manage are pretty damn good. At least that's what Ive been told.

I responded to your PM


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Omar EAZi said:
> 
> 
> 
> btw you good with pumps?
> 
> 
> 
> Well I cant always do as many as I would like, but the ones I do manage are pretty damn good. At least that's what Ive been told.
> 
> I responded to your PM
Click to expand...

Well I saw th video, you seem to be pretty good with pumps, and pretty good with everything related to tank!! Haha


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> It looks like a discombobulated cluster funk to me right now, but thanks for the compliment.
> 
> Im sure yours will get there. You have some nice looking stet-ups.


Discombobulated cluster funk?? Then mine is a jumbled stew of SNAFU!!:grin2::grin2:


----------



## LRJ

That pelt of Myrio Guyana is downright luxuriant.


----------



## burr740

LRJ said:


> That pelt of Myrio Guyana is downright luxuriant.


Yeah Im really digging that plant. Never would've thought to try it until Vin gave me a few to check out


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Yeah Im really digging that plant. Never would've thought to try it until Vin gave me a few to check out


it's the green semi bushy plant in the middle of your tank right?!


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> it's the green semi bushy plant in the middle of your tank right?!


Fuzzy green stems, front right corner


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Fuzzy green stems, front right corner


I was looking at your signature thumbnail lol


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> I was looking at your signature thumbnail lol


That pic is still my my old 75, I only changed the link :red_mouth


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> That pic is still my my old 75, I only changed the link :red_mouth


lol okay,

Btw I wanted to ask, when you plant some new stems, and then they start new grow at the top of the stem, but the old/bottom part looks pretty dead, what do you do in this situation? cut the new part and replant it and remove the old stem or what exactly?!


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> lol okay,
> 
> Btw I wanted to ask, when you plant some new stems, and then they start new grow at the top of the stem, but the old/bottom part looks pretty dead, what do you do in this situation? cut the new part and replant it and remove the old stem or what exactly?!


Yeah replant the nice tops and toss the ratty bottoms


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Yeah replant the nice tops and toss the ratty bottoms


aite thanks, will wait till the tops grow a little bigger so I can't plant them..


----------



## burr740

Got a late start yesterday so not much rearranging. Basically just hacked everything down to reduce biomass. No regard to height contrasts or anything. 
Before 



burr740 said:


>













You can see a few Rotala indica stunting, this is 100% due to too much biomass. Little things like this begin to happen when things get too overgrown. They'll soon get right again.


----------



## Immortal1

Overgrown.... have a feeling I will be dulling my scissors tomorrow morning. Will I cut out as much mass as you did, probably not. I will likely chicken out, LOL
Still ever amazed at how your tank looks, before or after.


----------



## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> Still ever amazed at how your tank looks, before or after.


+1 You ain't kiddin' Linn! Stunning as always!


----------



## burr740

Thanks Gregg!



Immortal1 said:


> Overgrown.... have a feeling I will be dulling my scissors tomorrow morning. Will I cut out as much mass as you did, probably not. I will likely chicken out, LOL
> Still ever amazed at how your tank looks, before or after.


That initial fear is understandable. But if you can get in the habit of cutting stems way down, way lower than your ideal height for something, and thinning the groups when they get really dense, the surge in health that follows will soon alleviate any apprehension.

If you need more of something, leave a few stumps in place and replant the tops in amongst them. 

If you already have plenty, then just replant the nice tops and toss the bottoms.

Also try to leave some space between groups, couple of inches at least. The tops might merge together as things grow out, but you'll still have that space at the bottom where flow can pass through better

Good trimming is an essential part of maintenance, just like water changes or cleaning filters. Controlling biomass is directly related to having good co2 and ferts. It helps both stay in the "good" category. When things get too thick or tall, co2 and ferts become.....less good.

So it's not just for when, Hey this is too tall now and I want it to be shorter. It's more to do with the overall health of things. Try it a couple of times and see for yourself. Your plants will never look better than that first week following a good hack 

Be ruthless! :red_mouth


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> If you need more of something, leave a few stumps in place and replant the tops in amongst them.
> If you already have plenty, then just replant the nice tops and toss the bottoms.


Is there a video showing how to toss the bottoms and plant the tops somewhere on youtube?!


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> Is there a video showing how to toss the bottoms and plant the tops somewhere on youtube?!


Im sure there is but you dont really need one.

Here's a group of Acmella repens, and lets say it was time for a trim.










Just cut them all at whatever height you want to have left, the blue dotted line for example, then stick them back in the ground.

The stumps you can leave to sprout more side shoots, aka propagate more, or pull them up and throw them away. 

Just about any stem works the same way


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Good trimming is an essential part of maintenance, just like water changes or cleaning filters. Controlling biomass is directly related to having good co2 and ferts. It helps both stay in the "good" category. When things get too thick or tall, co2 and ferts become.....less good.
> 
> So it's not just for when, Hey this is too tall now and I want it to be shorter. It's more to do with the overall health of things. Try it a couple of times and see for yourself. Your plants will never look better than that first week following a good hack


And it's good cheap therapy!:wink2:

At least for me anyway. 

Another example here of what I have said many times. Tanks like Burr's don't happen by accident. He spends far more time than most tending to his plants. A high tech tank with lots of stems is not something that takes care of itself. And it shows. It takes a commitment, and you have to enjoy it, or it could become a chore for some.


----------



## Axelrodi202

Excellent plants. What is your GH? Your downoi looks great so I'm wondering if you keep it in hard or soft water.


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Im sure there is but you dont really need one.
> 
> Here's a group of Acmella repens, and lets say it was time for a trim.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just cut them all at whatever height you want to have left, the blue dotted line for example, then stick them back in the ground.
> 
> The stumps you can leave to sprout more side shoots, aka propagate more, or pull them up and throw them away.
> 
> Just about any stem works the same way


Okay thanks, I was just worries that when I'll pull the old(dead lookins stems in my case) I'll be pulling out the root and it might disturb the soil, or that doesn't matter?!


----------



## Immortal1

Thankyou Burr for a valuable lesson in maintaining stems. Omar, the roots tend to grow back quickly I am finding out. My biggest issue with the stems is my substraight is not the best for holding plants (eco complete). But I am finding re-planting the tops is making my tank look much better right now (less ratty looking stems with lots of roots and very few leaves). Still not sure I am willing to hack them as short as Burr showed, LOL


----------



## slipfinger

This tank is such an inspiration!! 

Damn, this whole journal is an inspiration. The time and effort spent detailing all your trials and tribulations is worth more than gold to anyone in this hobby.
@burr740 a sincere thank-you for the time you spend helping others in this hobby, not only on here but "other places" as well.


----------



## burr740

Axelrodi202 said:


> Excellent plants. What is your GH? Your downoi looks great so I'm wondering if you keep it in hard or soft water.


Kh ~5.5
GH ~9

I've seen where folks with really soft water and aquasoil have problems with it. So that might be a thing, Im not sure. Barr seems to grow it just fine with a KH around 2 I believe, and Aquasoil. 

I can say it's one of the few plants I have that does NOT like really low traces.



Omar EAZi said:


> Okay thanks, I was just worries that when I'll pull the old(dead lookins stems in my case) I'll be pulling out the root and it might disturb the soil, or that doesn't matter?!


Do you mean actual soil, like potting soil capped with sand or such? Uprooting anything is going to make a big mess with that.

Otherwise, might kick up a little dust but its nothing to worry about.

BUT - anytime you disturb the substrate very much, its good to do a water change right afterwards. Otherwise you can trigger a green water outbreak.

Its a good idea to do all your trimming or moving on water change day, just before.

Fwiw Im not talking about pulling up a half dozen stems one time, that's not a problem. Just when you do anything major



slipfinger said:


> This tank is such an inspiration!!
> 
> Damn, this whole journal is an inspiration. The time and effort spent detailing all your trials and tribulations is worth more than gold to anyone in this hobby.
> 
> @*burr740* a sincere thank-you for the time you spend helping others in this hobby, not only on here but "other places" as well.


That's quite a compliment! Thanks!


----------



## Axelrodi202

Thanks for the hardness information.



burr740 said:


> So it's not just for when, Hey this is too tall now and I want it to be shorter. It's more to do with the overall health of things. Try it a couple of times and see for yourself. Your plants will never look better than that first week following a good hack


I'd like to know more about your philosophy and suggestions for trimming. I have generally found trims to be precarious times for tank health. If anything it seems to decline immediately after a trim, compared to before when everything was growing quickly. The plants end up growing more nicely in the end, but I find it takes more than a weeks before things really get going like before (probably more like two). Of course I dose lean nutrients and have medium lighting so things move a bit slower by default (a far cry from a Barr tank, which is fine because I travel a lot and can't have my hands in the tank every few days). And I learned the hard way that some plants like Cabomba really do not like to grow back from the cut lower stumps.

Luis Navarro once told me poor recovery from trimming is a sign of nutrient deficiency. Any thoughts on this, or trimming recovery in general?


----------



## burr740

Axelrodi202 said:


> Thanks for the hardness information.
> 
> I'd like to know more about your philosophy and suggestions for trimming. I have generally found trims to be precarious times for tank health. If anything it seems to decline immediately after a trim, compared to before when everything was growing quickly. The plants end up growing more nicely in the end, but I find it takes more than a weeks before things really get going like before (probably more like two). Of course I dose lean nutrients and have medium lighting so things move a bit slower by default (a far cry from a Barr tank, which is fine because I travel a lot and can't have my hands in the tank every few days). And I learned the hard way that some plants like Cabomba really do not like to grow back from the cut lower stumps.
> 
> Luis Navarro once told me poor recovery from trimming is a sign of nutrient deficiency. Any thoughts on this, or trimming recovery in general?


That is very interesting. All I can say for sure is what's been my own experience.

I cannot think of a single plant that responds poorly to getting trimmed, or topped and replanted - provided it was somewhat happy to begin with.

Now, some things take longer to sprout new stems from stumps than others. And a few plants like some of the touchier Erios dont like to be moved too often. But otherwise Ive never seen a negative response from trimming - and Ive had a fair share of deficiencies over the course of everything too.

As a matter of fact, trimming, for the sole purpose of reducing the overall biomass, is my go-to fix for just about anything. Algae issues, stunting, anything really, especially when I dont know what the problem is.

When in doubt, I just trim the hell out of everything. It is literally amazing what that can fix, in my experience


----------



## Omar EAZi

did you face that problem when the entire stem is producing new roots from bottom to top of the stem!! It's happening in my tank right now, I got a pic of it:


----------



## Immortal1

One of the things that does amaze me is how tenacious plants can be. "When in doubt, I just trim the hell out of everything. It is literally amazing what that can fix, in my experience" You think you may have gone too far and the healthy ones just bounce right back. Now, I just need to take everybodys advice and trim a little deeper. As always, thank you for all your knowledge!


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> One of the things that does amaze me is how tenacious plants can be.  "When in doubt, I just trim the hell out of everything. It is literally amazing what that can fix, in my experience"  You think you may have gone too far and the healthy ones just bounce right back. Now, I just need to take everybodys advice and trim a little deeper. As always, thank you for all your knowledge!


Well any knowledge I have came form others to begin with, I just try to apply it to my own tanks. 

I think most people fail to grasp the main point when somebody says practice good trimming. Most probably associate "good trimming" with aesthetics. I used to. But actually it's nothing to do with appearances.

Its about keeping biomass in check. More specifically, getting rid of old growth, or growth that's in poor condition, and thus doing nothing but blocking flow, taking resources, and leaking organic waste. It's no coincidence that this is the growth that usually has the algae.

So you want to get all that out, and keep it out.

The normal reaction when things like algae or growth issues arise is to break out the peroxide to "fight the algae", or start diddling with ferts wondering what's the deficiency. More often than not all that is needed is a good cleaning and biomass removal. Especially if things were going well not too long ago.

That's why advice from folks like Barr and @Saxa Tilly usually starts out with "Do a good trim...

It took me a while to understand the significance. I used to be like, OK well things are trimmed pretty good, now what about this algae over here, or these stunted tips??? Because I hadnt yet made the connection between the two seemingly unrelated things. But now I understand it better. And the more a person tries it, the more they'll understand too. 

Another thing is its not so much work once you get in the habit. It's only when you've let things go for too long that it turns into a big project. 

Its rare than I ever let things grow as tall and thick as last week, or do that much trimming at one time. Usually on water change days I might "trim" one or two groups, three or four maybe. Only takes a few minutes. Next week a different group or two will get some attention

Its like keeping a clean house. If your house is pretty clean to begin with, a little light dusting here and there might be all you need. But if its been a few years since anything saw a mop....then you have quite a different project on your hands.


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> Well any knowledge I have came form others to begin with, I just try to apply it to my own tanks.
> 
> I think most people fail to grasp the main point when somebody says practice good trimming. Most probably associate "good trimming" with aesthetics. I used to. But actually it's nothing to do with appearances.
> 
> Its about keeping biomass in check. More specifically, getting rid of old growth, or growth that's in poor condition, and thus doing nothing but blocking flow, taking resources, and leaking organic waste. It's no coincidence that this is the growth that usually has the algae.
> 
> So you want to get all that out, and keep it out.
> 
> The normal reaction when things like algae or growth issues arise is to break out the peroxide to "fight the algae", or start diddling with ferts wondering what's the deficiency. More often than not all that is needed is a good cleaning and biomass removal. Especially if things were going well not too long ago.
> 
> That's why advice from folks like Barr and  @Saxa Tilly usually starts out with "Do a good trim...
> 
> It took me a while to understand the significance. I used to be like, OK well things are trimmed pretty good, now what about this algae over here, or these stunted tips??? Because I hadnt yet made the connection between the two seemingly unrelated things. But now I understand it better. And the more a person tries it, the more they'll understand too.
> 
> Another thing is its not so much work once you get in the habit. It's only when you've let things go for too long that it turns into a big project.
> 
> Its rare than I ever let things grow as tall and thick as last week, or do that much trimming at one time. Usually on water change days I might "trim" one or two groups, three or four maybe. Only takes a few minutes. Next week a different group or two will get some attention
> 
> Its like keeping a clean house. If your house is pretty clean to begin with, a little light dusting here and there might be all you need. But if its been a few years since anything saw a mop....then you have quite a different project on your hands.


Thanks for all the advices, it really helps out a lot.


----------



## Omar EAZi

Omar EAZi said:


> did you face that problem when the entire stem is producing new roots from bottom to top of the stem!! It's happening in my tank right now, I got a pic of it:


Any thoughts on this? :grin2:


----------



## burr740

Omar EAZi said:


> Any thoughts on this? :grin2:


That one stem looks like a stump that's been topped, cant tell about the other one.

That's perfectly normal for a stump. It's what stumps do and why you leave them in place if you want to make more of something. When those new shoots get big enough to plant, say a couple or three inches, snip them off, replant those and remove the raggedy stump.

If this is happening to otherwise normal stems that havent been topped - Some species its normal to do a lot of branching. It is also a survival mechanism if the plant is unhappy. At a certain point it'll abandon the main tip and attempt to start itself over by making a bunch of new side shoots.


----------



## Omar EAZi

burr740 said:


> That one stem looks like a stump that's been topped, cant tell about the other one.
> 
> That's perfectly normal for a stump. It's what stumps do and why you leave them in place if you want to make more of something. When those new shoots get big enough to plant, say a couple or three inches, snip them off, replant those and remove the raggedy stump.
> 
> If this is happening to otherwise normal stems that havent been topped - Some species its normal to do a lot of branching. It is also a survival mechanism if the plant is unhappy. At a certain point it'll abandon the main tip and attempt to start itself over by making a bunch of new side shoots.


Understood, thanks a lot. I'm learning more from your journal than I'm learning from youtube videos lol!


----------



## Greggz

Burr I really enjoyed your comments on bio mass and trimming. It’s great food for thought, and I completely agree. Giving smaller groups room to grow tends to bring out the best in them. Like growing out my Rainbows, it is a matter of patience. You need to think a few steps ahead, and sometimes less IS more.

I imagine the TPT community collectively will be doing quite a bit of trimming this week based on your comments. Once again, very nice insight, valid information, and thanks for sharing.


----------



## clownplanted

Greggz said:


> Burr I really enjoyed your comments on bio mass and trimming. It’s great food for thought, and I completely agree. Giving smaller groups room to grow tends to bring out the best in them. Like growing out my Rainbows, it is a matter of patience. You need to think a few steps ahead, and sometimes less IS more.
> 
> I imagine the TPT community collectively will be doing quite a bit of trimming this week based on your comments. Once again, very nice insight, valid information, and thanks for sharing.


Funny you mention this about TPT doing massive trimmings. I did just that due to when I changed out my substrate the other week and many of the stems and even a couple of my large swords took a hit due to being out of the tank for quite some time. Started getting a bunch of string algae due to the weakened plants. So I decided to let many of them grow out new healthy portions then chopped them all down pretty good just leaving the new growth on most if not all stems. So they all were just a couple/few inches of good new healthy growth but the results have been awesome and the new growth is perfect and already nearly halfway up the tank already. And no need to spot treat or clean out the algae due to its just out of the tank with the chopping of old bad portions. So this is VERY good advice and not only helps at cleaning out the algae but keeping the plants and tank ecosystem very healthy.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Well any knowledge I have came form others to begin with, I just try to apply it to my own tanks.
> 
> I think most people fail to grasp the main point when somebody says practice good trimming. Most probably associate "good trimming" with aesthetics. I used to. But actually it's nothing to do with appearances.
> 
> Its about keeping biomass in check. More specifically, getting rid of old growth, or growth that's in poor condition, and thus doing nothing but blocking flow, taking resources, and leaking organic waste. It's no coincidence that this is the growth that usually has the algae.
> 
> So you want to get all that out, and keep it out.
> 
> The normal reaction when things like algae or growth issues arise is to break out the peroxide to "fight the algae", or start diddling with ferts wondering what's the deficiency. More often than not all that is needed is a good cleaning and biomass removal. Especially if things were going well not too long ago.
> 
> That's why advice from folks like Barr and @Saxa Tilly usually starts out with "Do a good trim...
> 
> It took me a while to understand the significance. I used to be like, OK well things are trimmed pretty good, now what about this algae over here, or these stunted tips??? Because I hadnt yet made the connection between the two seemingly unrelated things. But now I understand it better. And the more a person tries it, the more they'll understand too.
> 
> Another thing is its not so much work once you get in the habit. It's only when you've let things go for too long that it turns into a big project.
> 
> Its rare than I ever let things grow as tall and thick as last week, or do that much trimming at one time. Usually on water change days I might "trim" one or two groups, three or four maybe. Only takes a few minutes. Next week a different group or two will get some attention
> 
> Its like keeping a clean house. If your house is pretty clean to begin with, a little light dusting here and there might be all you need. But if its been a few years since anything saw a mop....then you have quite a different project on your hands.


If I'd read this post 10 years ago, I'd have glossed over it, dismissed it as fuzzy advice. As insubstantial. 

That's why my tanks were ugly back then. And I quit the hobby. Twice. Stayed away for about 5 years each time. I'd underestimated the importance of getting your elbows wet.


----------



## OreoP

Burr, this might sound like a stupid question: "How accurate should fert. dosing be?" The reason for asking is that I am genuinely fascinated with your approach to taking dosing to almost a "molecular" level. When you dose at fractions of ppm:

1. Fertilizer calculators assume that you know the exact water volume and have an accurate scale to weigh the salts. Obviously there is a small % error in knowing the exact water volume.

2. There is an error involved in the actual dosing process. Say you mix the required amount of salts in 500ml of water (and assume that you are within the solubility limit) and you dose 10ml of this solution. By just being 1ml off, you are introducing a margin of 10%.

How important are these two factors in totality or on an elemental level? Or is the final result subjective to the visual appearance on the plants?


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Burr, this might sound like a stupid question: "How accurate should fert. dosing be?" The reason for asking is that I am genuinely fascinated with your approach to taking dosing to almost a "molecular" level. When you dose at fractions of ppm:
> 
> 1. Fertilizer calculators assume that you know the exact water volume and have an accurate scale to weigh the salts. Obviously there is a small % error in knowing the exact water volume.
> 
> 2. There is an error involved in the actual dosing process. Say you mix the required amount of salts in 500ml of water (and assume that you are within the solubility limit) and you dose 10ml of this solution. By just being 1ml off, you are introducing a margin of 10%.
> 
> How important are these two factors in totality or on an elemental level? Or is the final result subjective to the visual appearance on the plants?


*1.* I dont think it matters. It's just a reference point for you alone to use anyway. 

Say you're targeting .1 ppm Fe. That's just a number. A lab test might show that its actually .08 or .12. The exact amount is irrelevant. If it's not enough you'll increase it, if its too much you'll decrease it.

The real trick when it comes to micros is knowing which way to go based on what the plants tell us


*2.* Adding a dash more or less from one dose to the next, shouldnt be a problem either. It's most definitely not an issue with macros.

Measuring out cap fulls, I might fill one above the rim on the verge of running over, the next might be a little shy of all the way. Its not something I worry about.


As far as my being so particular, if you've been following along you know that for some strange reason my tanks have always been very sensitive to changes in micro dosing.

There's not much difference in .005 ppm of Fe - unless you're only dosing .01 to begin with. 

And now rolling my own with all the other micro nutrients, if you look on the calculators at all the non-Fe ingredients in a typical micro mix, csmb for example, there's usually two or three zeros behind the decimal point.

Measuring these compounds HAS to be very accurate. Because it takes so little in the first place, even a few grains one way or another can make a huge difference.


*tl;dr* - Be as precise as you can and dont worry about it. 




Saxa Tilly said:


> If I'd read this post 10 years ago, I'd have glossed over it, dismissed it as fuzzy advice. As insubstantial.
> 
> That's why my tanks were ugly back then. And I quit the hobby. Twice. Stayed away for about 5 years each time. I'd underestimated the importance of getting your elbows wet.


If I'd read the post 2 years ago I would've done that.

Fortunately I had people like you hammering the point home to make sure I got it. 

So thanks!!


----------



## Warpiper

Burr,

That is an absolutely amazing and beautiful set up and I learned a lot from just reading all the posts. Thank you for sharing. I have a 120 reef tank (empty at the moment) that I was going to sell but now I think I may have to hold on to it.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Warpiper said:


> I have a 120 reef tank (empty at the moment) that I was going to sell but now I think I may have to hold on to it.


Move to the "Dark Side" make it a planted tank!


----------



## DMtankd

Burr - have you found your sweet spot for micros/fe? Wondering what your current CSM+B equivalent + DTPA Fe dosing is at.


----------



## burr740

DMtankd said:


> Burr - have you found your sweet spot for micros/fe? Wondering what your current CSM+B equivalent + DTPA Fe dosing is at.


The latest is I went 2 weeks at what amounts to .1 csmb, Mn adjusted to .05, everything else the same. Results were pretty good. I could tell a few things liked the increase, and that it was most likely unrelated to Fe. For example the internodes of Rotala mac variegated have been a little short, but slowly getting better over the past weeks of a steady increase. B and Zn are the most likely suspects for that. A few other things improved as well.

BUT - I also started noticing a few things that seem to happen in my tanks with too much Fe. Red plants turning abnormally dark for example. Rotala indica, which previously stunted a little bit with the aforementioned biomass thing, it's turning abnormally darker green on the bottom, the tips are a deep dirty looking yellow, instead of being nice and bright.

So this past week I decided to go up to .12 (3x week). Things would either get better or worse. Its been one week of that.

What got better - the mac internodes and and a few of that sort of thing. What got worse - the too much Fe looking symptoms. 

Also developed some gda on the front glass by weeks end. And started seeing a few tufts of bba on the substrate along the very front edge of the right side. I used to get this in the 75 before I started REALLY reducing micros. Havent seen that in probably a couple of years. But here we are.

So it seems like the extra traces were appreciated, but the higher Fe was not.

Starting this week Ive made a new batch of micros, Fe is still .1, but instead of everything else being in relation to Fe, it's in relation to .05 Mn, which amounts to about 75% higher than dosing according to Fe. Thats a pretty substantial increase but it makes sense if you think about it. Why adjust the Mn and not everything else? Obviously just a theory atm.

I have a feeling it's still going to be a tad too much Fe, but closing the gap between the other micros might help. If not then I'll go back down to .075 or something like that, keeping the higher ratio of non-Fe micros.

All these issues are minor fwiw, things that under close scrutiny only I would probably notice. Between .075 and .1 seems like a pretty sweet spot for just about everything, just not quite there yet. Far better than with csmb though. Soon as I made the switch, and ever since then, in all four tanks it was like everything breathed a huge sigh of relief.


Clear as mud, right? :red_mouth


----------



## vijay_06

Burr,
Had a couple of questions.
1. What made you switch from CSM+B to rolling your own Micros?
2. Just to confirm, you have increased Micros
from 0.01 to 0.02 ppm CSM-B (calculated for Fe) and 0.015 to 0.04 ppm addition Fe 
to 0.1 ppm CSM-B equivalent and 0.1 ppm additional Fe?
I tried to read all the posts in this thread, but could not seem to follow why you decided to up your Micros and Fe. Appreciate your feedback!


----------



## burr740

vijay_06 said:


> Burr,
> Had a couple of questions.
> 1. What made you switch from CSM+B to rolling your own Micros?
> 2. Just to confirm, you have increased Micros
> from 0.01 to 0.02 ppm CSM-B (calculated for Fe) and 0.015 to 0.04 ppm addition Fe
> to 0.1 ppm CSM-B equivalent and 0.1 ppm additional Fe?
> I tried to read all the posts in this thread, but could not seem to follow why you decided to up your Micros and Fe. Appreciate your feedback!


No problem. If you want to go further in depth on the subject, it's all explained a few pages back, along with a few links to other discussions/and articles.

The short version it was to get rid of the edta chelate that is used for most of the nutrients in csmb. Chelates all have a breaking point as far as PH levels. Mine is too high for edta to remain bound to Fe, except for a few hours each day when CO2 is at peak levels. EDTA breaks loose from Fe around 6.5. it holds to other nutrients on up little higher. Its not so much about the Fe as what the chelate can do once it becomes free.

To your other question, there's no "additional Fe" being added now. It's .1 total (3x week), coming from dtpa Fe, which is a different chelate with a higher PH threshold. 

All the other nutrients are non-chelated compounds - the exact same stuff that's in Seachem Flourish and Trace


----------



## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> No problem. If you want to go further in depth on the subject, it's all explained a few pages back, along with a few links to other discussions/and articles.
> 
> The short version it was to get rid of the edta chelate that is used for most of the nutrients in csmb. Chelates all have a breaking point as far as PH levels. Mine is too high for edta to remain bound to Fe, except for a few hours each day when CO2 is at peak levels. EDTA breaks loose from Fe around 6.5. it holds to other nutrients on up little higher. Its not so much about the Fe as what the chelate can do once it becomes free.
> 
> To your other question, there's no "additional Fe" being added now. It's .1 total (3x week), coming from dtpa Fe, which is a different chelate with a higher PH threshold.
> 
> All the other nutrients are non-chelated compounds - the exact same stuff that's in Seachem Flourish and Trace


Seachem Iron is Ferrous Gluconate though, right?


----------



## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Seachem Iron is Ferrous Gluconate though, right?


Yeah Im talking about all the other micros in Flourish comp and Trace


----------



## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> Yeah Im talking about all the other micros in Flourish comp and Trace


Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure. You're not a fan of Ferrous Gluconate, right? I thought that I read somewhere about it causing brown "gunk" in the tank. I have been adding a small about each day and it seems to be okay but I have noticed gunk on the flow pipes. Just a tad, but it's there...


----------



## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure. You're not a fan of Ferrous Gluconate, right? I thought that I read somewhere about it causing brown "gunk" in the tank. I have been adding a small about each day and it seems to be okay but I have noticed gunk on the flow pipes. Just a tad, but it's there...


Only reason Im not a fan is because it doesnt hold up well in higher PH/KH such as mine. 

When Ive used it in the past, the plants did seem to "get it" to some extent, but it soon precipitates leaving brown gunk everywhere, starting with and especially the outflow pipes. 

Also if I ever dosed it when the PH was still high, like in the 7.4 range before the CO2 kicks on, it clouded the water immediately, a milky white cloudiness that lasted a few hours. It wouldnt happen if the PH was down in the low-mid 6s

This was using liquid Seachem Iron, not a dry form. What type are you using?


----------



## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> Only reason Im not a fan is because it doesnt hold up well in higher PH/KH such as mine.
> 
> When Ive used it in the past, the plants did seem to "get it" to some extent, but it soon precipitates leaving brown gunk everywhere, starting with and especially the outflow pipes.
> 
> Also if I ever dosed it when the PH was still high, like in the 7.4 range before the CO2 kicks on, it clouded the water immediately, a milky white cloudiness that lasted a few hours. It wouldnt happen if the PH was down in the low-mid 6s
> 
> This was using liquid Seachem Iron, not a dry form. What type are you using?


I'm using the dry form. When I first add it, it clouds the water for about a minute or 2. I'm also only adding small amounts daily. 1/32tsp. The plants seem to respond well to it though. I am also dosing DTPA 3x per week at 1/16tsp with micros.


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> Also if I ever dosed it when the PH was still high, like in the 7.4 range before the CO2 kicks on, it clouded the water immediately, a milky white cloudiness that lasted a few hours. It wouldnt happen if the PH was down in the low-mid 6s


It's been a long time since chemistry, but I wonder if your problem was that at the higher pH, the iron was in it's ferric (+3) state so it precipitated your phosphate (-3). I've had this happen before. Would have explained a PO4 deficiency if you were having one at the time.


----------



## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> It's been a long time since chemistry, but I wonder if your problem was that at the higher pH, the iron was in it's ferric (+3) state so it precipitated your phosphate (-3). I've had this happen before. Would have explained a PO4 deficiency if you were having one at the time.


Could very well be, I never knew what was happening exactly. As for chemistry, mine goes about as far as being able to recognize which ferts are which...and thats about it! 

I can tell you it's always been a constant thing in all my tanks though. Starting as far back as before the 75 even had co2. Used to happen with every dose. Soon as I hooked up some DIY co2, it stopped. 

Fast forward a couple years later, when I tried it again for a few months, in conjunction with other forms of Fe, happened every time if the PH wasnt already dropped. 

Happened as recently as a couple months ago, when I was just starting out these new micros and the levels were extremely low, saw a few deficiencies early on. Dosed a couple tanks up for a few days and it happened then too.

Ive never seen much in the way of P deficiency. But I DID notice a drastic improvement in the 75 once when I cut P way back. That seemed to fix a lot of Fe deficiency looking symptoms I was dealing with at the time. Symptoms which couldnt be fixed be simply adding more P. None of which ever really made sense to me. Got any ideas about that?


----------



## vijay_06

burr740 said:


> No problem. If you want to go further in depth on the subject, it's all explained a few pages back, along with a few links to other discussions/and articles.
> 
> The short version it was to get rid of the edta chelate that is used for most of the nutrients in csmb. Chelates all have a breaking point as far as PH levels. Mine is too high for edta to remain bound to Fe, except for a few hours each day when CO2 is at peak levels. EDTA breaks loose from Fe around 6.5. it holds to other nutrients on up little higher. Its not so much about the Fe as what the chelate can do once it becomes free.
> 
> To your other question, there's no "additional Fe" being added now. It's .1 total (3x week), coming from dtpa Fe, which is a different chelate with a higher PH threshold.
> 
> All the other nutrients are non-chelated compounds - the exact same stuff that's in Seachem Flourish and Trace


Thanks for the explanation.


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> Ive never seen much in the way of P deficiency. But I DID notice a drastic improvement in the 75 once when I cut P way back. That seemed to fix a lot of Fe deficiency looking symptoms I was dealing with at the time. Symptoms which couldnt be fixed be simply adding more P. None of which ever really made sense to me. Got any ideas about that?


Maybe when you cut your P back, there wasn't enough to precipitate out all the Fe. So there was some left over? 
Complete guessing there.

Next time you are fiddling with your dosing, might could experiment. Increase your P and only add Fe later in the day when the pH is low.


----------



## JTDillon

Burr, I just got a few Grolux T5s. They cast a red/ pink glow to the entire tank...what would you use with them to balance them out?


----------



## burr740

JTDillon said:


> Burr, I just got a few Grolux T5s. They cast a red/ pink glow to the entire tank...what would you use with them to balance them out?


I think a 1:1 ratio of 6500K and red/pink types is hard to beat. Unless you have a lot of slots then you can get fancier with a wide assortment.

My favorite combo in the 4 bulb I had on the 75 was 6500K, TL Flora, a 3000K and a blue actinic to "cool" down the 3000K. Eventually changed the actinic to an ATI purple


*Update time* Lots of happenings :bounce:

Took the main stump out and did a little hacking. 

I never really liked the long horizontal part up top. It looked really good from the side, but from the front it created a shadow that made the whole thing look like a big dark square. It wasnt so bad in person, worse in pics












Also ran across two softballs of Christmas moss for $20 shipped. I took it as a sign from the universe that it was finally time to try a moss wall...


Here's the build:

Grabbed some #7 art mesh off no ebay links allowed Cut it to the appropriate size and zip tied it together




















For supports Id originally planned on using rigid plastic airline tubing, and airline suction cups to hold it on. I wanted something that would be easy to take out/put back. This was deal breaker

But I dint have any rigid tubing. What I did have was some stainless steel rods (1/8" 304 welding rods). So I slid these inside some regular tubing






























* Most folks arent going to have stainless steel rods laying around, but Im fairly sure using rigid plastic airline tubing would work the same way. Thats what I'd planned on doing in the first place.


----------



## burr740

Testing on the front glass




















To attach the moss I just stitched in on using fishing line and a big ass needle. There might be a better way to do it, idk...




















Vois la!






































As you can see there wasnt enough moss to do the whole pieces, which are 12" tall. I think hopefully this will be enough as long as I keep the background plants tall enough. Also Im not sure how xmas moss grows, whether it'll spread on down or whatever.


Overall Im pretty happy with the result. It added a new sense of depth that I wasnt expecting. And now obviously I have to do the right side too because it looks weird without it.

Anybody have a buttload of xmas moss to get rid of?? :red_mouth


----------



## Dempsey

The tank looks amazing as always! Can't wait to see how the moss fills in. That seems like the best way to do it....


----------



## Immortal1

Kinda liking where this is headed. Stainless steel welding rod - did not know you were into high end metal fabrication ;-)
Have always wondered if a tank, like yours, would look better with some type of moss wall (dark green background) or a painted black glass back panel. Or better yet(?) a piece of low gloss black plexi glass in the tank, attached to the back wall (less reflection than glass). In my 20g low tech tank I had a fair amount of green algae on the glass. I keep the front and 1 side pretty clean and let the other 2 just grow - offered an interesting look after awhile.

You asked about x-mas moss - given the way the rest of your tank looks, I would how the wall would look with different clumps / patterns of moss?


----------



## Greggz

Looking good Burr! I like the DIY on the moss wall. Good idea and nicely implemented. 

I guess pretty soon you are going to have to change the title of the thread.........looks like you are on your way to full proper Dutch, no more freestyle! 

And I'm sensing your tank is finally going to be entered into a competition?? I think rightly so, and I'm predicting you will fair well. 

And in general, beautifully presented as always.


----------



## LRJ

YES. That moss wall is going to take this tank to a whole new level. Already gives it more depth without even being grown in yet.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

you didn't pay more than $0.70 per piece of mesh did you? They're usually $0.70 or lower at Michael's (unless you don't have one where you live)

Are you gonna moss the side walls too in the future?


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> You asked about x-mas moss - given the way the rest of your tank looks, I would how the wall would look with different clumps / patterns of moss?


Done right it would probably look pretty good, or at least interesting. However Dutch rules frown on mixing mosses so I wanted to have it all one thing.

You can also plant on top of the moss stuff like Buces, Ferns, H pinnatifida, Anubias, anything that will grow attached to hardscape. Some of that may be in store for the future




Greggz said:


> Looking good Burr! I like the DIY on the moss wall. Good idea and nicely implemented.
> 
> I guess pretty soon you are going to have to change the title of the thread.........looks like you are on your way to full proper Dutch, no more freestyle!
> 
> And I'm sensing your tank is finally going to be entered into a competition?? I think rightly so, and I'm predicting you will fair well.
> 
> And in general, beautifully presented as always.


I never liked that title anyway. 

Deadline for this years AGA is mid September. A lot needs to happen and go right between now and then for me to even consider it, but we'll see...



LRJ said:


> YES. That moss wall is going to take this tank to a whole new level. Already gives it more depth without even being grown in yet.


Yeah I wasnt expecting such a profound depth effect. It was the first thing I noticed when I stepped back and looked, like woah!

If I'd know it would make THAT much difference I would've done this a long time ago.



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> you didn't pay more than $0.70 per piece of mesh did you? They're usually $0.70 or lower at Michael's (unless you don't have one where you live)
> 
> Are you gonna moss the side walls too in the future?


These were $1 each, and I also grabbed some 13.5"x22.5" that were $2-something.

The right side is getting done asap, soon as I find some more moss. The left side may get it eventually but I'd also hate to give up the side view. So the left side is still up in the air at this point.


----------



## Omar EAZi

wow, that moss wall is already looking great, can't wait to see it grown and fully covering the place!


----------



## burr740

So I went back to the drawing board a little on the design. To prevent shrimps and small fish from going behind it, hiding or getting stuck, I decided to turn a 3/4" edge all around. That's about how much it stands off the glass. Not sure if that would be an issue or not, just seemed like the logical thing to do.

I used a sheet metal break (for bending metal) But you can do it by hand using a hammer on a hard surface.

This stuff is pretty soft, and the perforations make it easy to fold over in a straight line. Mash it over together first with your hands, then take a hammer and bang the crease real good. This will create a sharp, lasting bend. Easy peezy.










Use zip ties to secure the corners and anywhere two pieces meet





























Quick pic after installing the side


----------



## Immortal1

Just keeps getting better and better


----------



## LRJ

Looks awesome, man.


----------



## Immortal1

20ish days without an update...
Gonna need more popcorn, LOL. Hope everything is going ok and you are just waiting for the big reveal.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> 20ish days without an update...
> Gonna need more popcorn, LOL. Hope everything is going ok and you are just waiting for the big reveal.


Its been an eventful 3 weeks, to say the least 

To begin with, the 10 gal sprung a leak. Yes, that 10 gal, the brand new one I just replaced the other one with a few months ago, which I cracked by slamming it with a bucket of water.

This sparked a chain of events that culminated with the 75 going back up.

Hello old friend










Using the previous 4 bulb T5 unit, around 100 PAR at the substrate.

Made a new 3"x24"" PVC reactor just like the one on here. Had to buy a new filter, went with a SunSun 704B, which is apparently the 2016 version of the 304B, has the skimmer, UV and all that, sturdier casing. Its pretty nice, dead silent as usual.

Blasting sand sub, basically the same set up as all the rest. 

It went in place of the 20 long. So now in the back room I have the 75 and the 50. Gone are the 20 and 10. 

Maintenance is a lot easier now w/o all those HOB filters. And I can use the big siphon hose to drain and fill so no more toting buckets. It only took three for the 20 and 10 but still a pain in the ass. Should've done this a long time ago.

*The 120*

Moss walls are growing out nice. About ready to trim the right side and fill in some empty spaces.

This stuff pearls like crazy, I wasnt expecting that.



















Re-did the stump...again. I hated to re-start the Fissidens so soon but it had to be done. Hopefully it takes off with a quickness.

Replaced the H araguaia with Penthorum sediodes. Added a Barclaya (thanks Vin). Gone are the Erio lineare and AR variegated. Might bring the AR back if I can find a good spot for it.

Stem groups are still a jumbled mess but I have a plan finally. Tomorrow's water change will do some trimming and re-arranging

Here's two fts, such as it is, taken a few days apart. See if you can tell the difference before I explain it. 




















The difference is I changed out a bulb in the bottom pic. Better colors now, right? 

All this moss cast a heavy green tint on everything and I wasnt really diggging it. Played around with a few different bulbs, a blue actinic finally did the trick. 

I ran one on the 75 for a few months in conjunction with the 3000K. Those two are a dramatic combo, excellent compliment to one another. The ATI purple sorta does the same as the blue, but all this extra green needed a heavier punch.

Here it is now. Front to back

Trulumen Flora
Zoo-med 420 actinic blue
Plantmax 3000K
Agrobrite 6400K
ATI purple
Zoo-med Flora










Generally you want the reds in front and blues in back for a better depth effect. But I wanted a heavy blue next to the 3000K to off-set some of that yellow shining down on the moss sides.

*Fert update*

3 weeks at .075 Fe 3x. The previously mentioned symptoms of overdosing at .12 and .1 are probably...75% gone now. But its still too much.

The little tufts of BBA that appeared on the substrate is gone. GDA on the glass is hardly any by the weeks end. At .1 is was pretty bad already by mid-week. GDA is usually associated with excessive macros, specifically ammonia, but too much Fe can trigger it too. Ive seen this movie a few times before.

Lingering plant symptoms are minor. Rotala indica is still abnormally dark, not bright and pretty like its supposed to be.

Persicaria pink and sao paulo leaves are still twisting. Which in this particular case is 100% due to an overdose of micros or Fe. Some may scoff at the notion, but just like curling AR, it happens like clockwork. Too much brings it on and lower levels fix it. Done it over and over again.

Other than a few nagging issues like that, everything else is doing pretty good. Rotala mac variegated and sunset are both fine.

Llimnophila belem is big with nice purple splotches. When this plant colors up right you know things are good for the most part.

Its not a tough plant to grow, nearly impossible to kill, but having good size and colors is another matter 











Next step micro-wise is go down to .05 ppm Fe 3x per week and see what happens. Ive tweaked the ratios a bit, more B and Zn, less Mo, and now adding a dash of Cu. Roughly a Marschner ratio now, which it was pretty close to before.


----------



## rhiro

Simply stunning. Always look forward to your updates with pics.


----------



## fablau

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

Fantastic update Burr! Terrific tank, as always. And I am sorry about what happened.

Amazing how we both are going toward the same kind of trace dosing, I also plan to cut that of 1/3 for the next upcoming 2 weeks... similar problems like yours, just updated my journal about all this. Keep us posted! Thank you!


----------



## PEdwards

It's about time you mossed the walls. Looks great!


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys

And so it begins...

Started on the right. Topped/replanted the B colorata, swapped places with the Myrio and mini aromatica











Center brace comes in handy for laying out stems in order of height.




















Moving right along, got the Downoi replanted, sp red yanked











These Downoi are a lot bigger than they look underwater











I remember when Pikez first got this Hygrophila odora. Posted a pic of a nice little group about 3-4 inches tall. I was like, aawww, how cute, wonder if it stays small like that?

Yeah, that would be a no











Done for now












Still undecided about the whole back left area, will sort that out next water change, along with the Oldenlandia and Rotala indica. Those two are where they're gonna be, just need to be trimmed and the groups shaped up.

Might need something between the L aromatica mini and the Bacopa, no idea what though. Might be OK as the aromatica gets taller, and maybe bring some shorter Bacopa on down. Not sure about that spot

Just gonna ponder things for a few days and let some ideas come to mind, try to get everything set by next WC.


----------



## Nlewis

Looking straight baller as usual.


----------



## Ben Belton

I am hoping to get a 75 going in the fall, and I have started getting stuff together to set it up. I was at my dad's today 2 hours away, and finally was close to a Tractor Supply for the Black Diamond blasting sand. Attached are how the bags were marked. WTH? It wasn't very helpful. I assumed the top one was 20/40, but I didn't want to buy a bunch and be screwed. It was very frustrating. I could feel the grit through the bag, and the one I thought was 20/40 had a hole, so I could actually get some out of the bag, but it seemed much too tiny. The bags seemed small too. Not what I was expecting.

So Burr, or anyone, next time you have your arm in your tank, can you get some up on your finger and snap a quick phone pic so I can see how big it is in case I run into this the next time? Thanks in advance.

BTW Burr, I think you are up to 75% more Dutch with these last pics. You have the streets, the defined groups, different leaf shapes, focal point, and the coalesce on the sides.


----------



## slipfinger

@Ben Belton

20/40 is the stuff you want..


----------



## burr740

@Ben Belton Thanks man, I feel like it's getting there.

The top pic is 20/40, it's what I and most folks have. If my local store ever had the courser version I'd try that, but Ive never seen it.

The 20/40 works great, and yeah it can seem fine on your fingers.

50 lb bags, not as big as expected. Think I used 2 1/2 on my 75 the first time, might've been less than two, I dont remember exactly. This last time I already had the sand, so not sure how many "bags" were involved.

For $8 you might as well buy three just to be on the safe side.


----------



## Ben Belton

Yeah, my issue was that the top one was marked 20/40, 16/30, and 12/40. While I ASSumed it was the 20/40 like you two say, you know what happens when you assume. :grin2:

There is a Tractor Supply closer to me than 2 hours, but I haven't wanted to drive up after work when I'm dead. It might be that I can order the stuff online to be picked up at a certain store. That would work. I'll look into it.

Thanks for the replies.


----------



## burr740

PEdwards said:


> It's about time you mossed the walls. Looks great!


Thanks man. You know I always resisted the idea. It was our conversation last year, whenever it was, that really got me thinking seriously about it for the first time.

So really this is all your fault!!


----------



## Immortal1

Impressive as always - last pic is my favorite so far.


----------



## PEdwards

burr740 said:


> Thanks man. You know I always resisted the idea. It was our conversation last year, whenever it was, that really got me thinking seriously about it for the first time.
> 
> So really this is all your fault!!


I gladly take full blame.


----------



## Brian Rodgers

Ben Belton said:


> Yeah, my issue was that the top one was marked 20/40, 16/30, and 12/40. While I ASSumed it was the 20/40 like you two say, you know what happens when you assume. :grin2:
> 
> There is a Tractor Supply closer to me than 2 hours, but I haven't wanted to drive up after work when I'm dead. It might be that I can order the stuff online to be picked up at a certain store. That would work. I'll look into it.
> 
> Thanks for the replies.


I ordered BDBS into our TCS store, however I didn't realize there were different grades :surprise: Doh!
Burr you are a genius in everything you do. Jaw dropping beautiful aquascapes


----------



## vijay_06

Looks awesome as usual. Could this get any prettier? :smile2:


----------



## The Dude1

Burr is there something you recommend that will grow tall and replace the ludwigia ovalis? The lower leaves are dropping and it just looks scraggly. It's in the highest light area of the tank and get root tabs, ferts, and pressurized C02. I like the Bacopa Caroliniana. Is pogo Kimberly a good one?? Something that grows straight and doesn't drop lower leaves?? It's in between windolev java ferns and bolbitus. I figure you've probably tried most plants.


----------



## burr740

The Dude1 said:


> Burr is there something you recommend that will grow tall and replace the ludwigia ovalis? The lower leaves are dropping and it just looks scraggly. It's in the highest light area of the tank and get root tabs, ferts, and pressurized C02. I like the Bacopa Caroliniana. Is pogo Kimberly a good one?? Something that grows straight and doesn't drop lower leaves?? It's in between windolev java ferns and bolbitus. I figure you've probably tried most plants.


P kimberly grows straight but it'll drop lower leaves in a heartbeat if something isnt right.

What you're experiencing is an unhappy plant problem, not a species issue. Best thing would be to figure out why the ovalis is dropping leaves.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> P kimberly grows straight but it'll drop lower leaves in a heartbeat if something isnt right.
> 
> What you're experiencing is an unhappy plant problem, not a species issue. Best thing would be to figure out why the ovalis is dropping leaves.


The lower leaves on my Pogo Kimberley get a little cruddy or pinholed occasionally. But leaf-shedding has never been an issue in the last year or so that I've kept it. 

Generally, during pre-EI era, leaf shedding was considered a reliable macro deficiency. There was no need to question it. We live in a post-EI era where no one really has deficiencies anymore. The old websites with their deficiency symptoms are misleading. We need a completely revised trouble-shooting symptom list, starting with 'Pinholes no longer a reliable indicator of K deficiency.'


----------



## slipfinger

Saxa Tilly said:


> We need a completely revised trouble-shooting symptom list, starting with 'Pinholes no longer a reliable indicator of K deficiency.'


 @Saxa Tilly 

With your knowledge and experience, I think you might just be the right person to take this on.


----------



## burr740

Saxa Tilly said:


> The lower leaves on my Pogo Kimberley get a little cruddy or pinholed occasionally. But leaf-shedding has never been an issue in the last year or so that I've kept it.
> 
> '


Mine frequently shed bottom leaves, there's been 8-10" of bare stem sometimes up to a pretty nice looking top. 

Remember the last "micro incident" a few months ago, the one that sparked the whole rolling my own thing?

Kimberlys took a hit. The tops recovered, but ALL the bottom leaves dropped over the next few weeks.

These right here, looks like a shadow in the pic but those stems are completely bare!


----------



## OreoP

Burr, are you still maintaining EI macro levels? Par at substrate 120?


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Burr, are you still maintaining EI macro levels? Par at substrate 120?


Recently started 5 ppm KNO3, 1 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week, and .25 urea every day. The urea amounts to 1.1 ppm nitrate. 6 ppm K2SO4 on water change days 

Too early to say if its any better or worse than standard EI, and making the change along with adjusting micros...further confounds the answer. 

The overall speed of things has increased, if you call that a good thing. My guess on that would be the urea.

Ideally you change one thing at a time but I dont always have the patience for that.  

The actinic dropped PAR to around 108


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> Recently started 5 ppm KNO3, 1 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week, and .25 urea every day. The urea amounts to 1.1 ppm nitrate. 6 ppm K2SO4 on water change days


Is the urea standard 46-0-0 grade?

Have you noticed any change in growth/color with the lower par?


----------



## Saxa Tilly

slipfinger said:


> @Saxa Tilly
> 
> With your knowledge and experience, I think you might just be the right person to take this on.


Thanks, but, there is no way something like this can be undertaken by even a handful of people. It will need lots and lots of people crowd-feeding a database. From that database, you have to weed out what's real and what's not. OR...you could just back off on EI chems a bit and go back to relying on the old standard of deficiency IDs.


----------



## burr740

What we need today is a toxicity chart. 



OreoP said:


> Is the urea standard 46-0-0 grade?


Yup



OreoP said:


> Have you noticed any change in growth/color with the lower par?


No but its only been a few days. Colors look better to the eyes now with different bulbs. I dont expect much else to change. 

The 50 gal has around 90 par and plants do just as well, some even do better.


----------



## micahm2002

Are you using any root tabs?


----------



## burr740

micahm2002 said:


> Are you using any root tabs?


I use Osmocote Plus, sparingly. Individual balls pushed around certain things.

For example the Downoi has a ball under each plant, but ive grown it just fine without any.

There's 6-8 around the Barclaya. The group of Hygro siamesis has probably 8-10 because Im trying to grow it up fast.

When I moved the Mini myrio from the right side to the left, put 8-10 balls where it was going just for the hell of it. There's 5-6 around the Isoetes.

Anything that's struggling will get a few to see if it helps. Rarely have I ever seen it be a saving grace, if something is having trouble. It usually comes back to whats going on with the water.


----------



## burr740

Made a few changes over the past couple of weeks. 










Didnt have enough indica to make a nice group so I ordered another batch off aquabid. Supposed to be submerged grown, they were about 12" tall and straight so I believe it is. Originally a very light green with zero top color. Its been in here a few days. 

We'll see how it goes. Deadline for AGA is about 3 weeks. Have a couple back up plans to plug and play if necessary.

The tank as a whole...needs at least two or three weeks, primarily to fatten up the Acmella and B colorata, and let the H siamesis get taller. 











Finally was able to fill in the left moss wall using lower stuff from the back wall. You can see the line between the new and the old (shows up better in later pics) This new stuff wasnt getting much light.










Barclaya longifolia red is growing pretty fast, the bigger it gets the better, gave it some O+.

Water change was four days ago....for anyone paying attn 

Spot the Amano??











FTS











Didiplis, Acmella and Colorata will get tightened up this weekend on WC day

Need to pack ths Ludwigia sp red tighter in the bottom half behind the Isoetes to kill that dark spot.

Gonna move the Myrio forward some and shape the group better 











Trying an experiment with Pennywort running along the very top and sides. It was growing vertical so all the leaves havent turned the right way yet. Might be a good look when it fills in, cant decide yet.


----------



## Ben Belton

Amazing as always. The Isotes with the red behind it is my favorite part I think.


----------



## LRJ

Nice, man! The groupings are so crisp and have great contrast - strongly passing the squint test. Moss walls have added a ton of depth. Are you planning on removing the filter equipment for the AGA shots, or will you try to hide them with plants?


----------



## fablau

Spotted! Wow Burr! This tank is amazing, it looks like a real submersed garden! I am sure you'll win the competition!

Is the O+ you are using this one:

Osmocote Plus Outdoor and Indoor Smart-Release Plant Food, 8-Pound (Plant Fertilizer) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GTDGMHC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_BD5NzbWM1CCPZ


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> Amazing as always. The Isotes with the red behind it is my favorite part I think.


Thanks, Ben

Yeah I like that too. If contrast is the goal, what's behind something is just as important as anything, if not more really

It needs a little fine tuning as far as getting the best depth effect from the red ascending in height. Still playing with that




LRJ said:


> Nice, man! The groupings are so crisp and have great contrast - strongly passing the squint test. Moss walls have added a ton of depth. Are you planning on removing the filter equipment for the AGA shots, or will you try to hide them with plants?


Thanks man, yeah I'll be taking all that out



fablau said:


> Spotted! Wow Burr! This tank is amazing, it looks like a real submersed garden! I am sure you'll win the competition!
> 
> Is the O+ you are using this one:
> 
> Osmocote Plus Outdoor and Indoor Smart-Release Plant Food, 8-Pound (Plant Fertilizer) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GTDGMHC/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_BD5NzbWM1CCPZ


Thanks Fab. 

Winning is not really the goal, I'd be happy to just feel like it belongs in the conversation. If some of the masters like Laurens or van Wezel enter this year, there's virtually zero chance for this scape winning.

And I hope they do 

Yeah that's the stuff. Just be sure you get the "plus" kind because the regular only has macros.


----------



## vijay_06

The tank looks amazing! All the best for the competition.


How frequently do you add Osmocote balls? How many tiny individual balls you add under a plant (eg. under AR Mini or Blyxa)?


----------



## Immortal1

Amazing display of color! Starting to get a better idea on my plant groupings every time I look at your tank shots. Best of luck on the ADA submittal.


----------



## burr740

vijay_06 said:


> The tank looks amazing! All the best for the competition.
> 
> 
> How frequently do you add Osmocote balls? How many tiny individual balls you add under a plant (eg. under AR Mini or Blyxa)?


How often, just depends. Its not something I keep track of. Just did a second round in the 50 under several things, after like...a year and a half. 

Not sue how long it lasts really, guess would be 3-4 months easy, 6+ maybe. Could be a lot less though

When I added the Red Downoi to the 120, each plant got approximately one ball. 

AR mini or Blyxa might get 1 or 2 or 3. Seems to help AR, dont think Ive ever used it under Blyxa. Though Im sure it would help say in a lean water column.



Immortal1 said:


> Amazing display of color! Starting to get a better idea on my plant groupings every time I look at your tank shots. Best of luck on the ADA submittal.


Thanks man


----------



## Foxbody Fanatic

Picture Postcard Beautiful.


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## vijay_06

Thanks!


----------



## Greggz

Burr this might your masterpiece! Colors, shapes, textures.....it all adds up to a sight to behold!

I hope people appreciate how much work goes into that. It surely doesn't happen by accident, and requires hours of painstaking trimming and planting. Not to mention your unique ability to get the very best out of each plant species.

If I could vote.....well, I think you know what the result would be.............


----------



## Immortal1

Could not agree with you more @Greggz!


----------



## OreoP

Perfect combination of science and art!!!


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## Omar EAZi

Teach Me Master!!!


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

Awesome tank Burr! Well done sir!

I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for this but your tank deserves a meme! aahahhaha










LOL!


----------



## fablau

Wishing you the deserved winning.... I am wondering if you really notice any difference in putting O+ under your plants and if you think it is worth it... from what your wrote earlier it looks like you couldn't tell, but... I am just wondering if by adding those "pills" could ever cause any negative issues such as uncontrolled increase of traces in the water column... just thinking aloud since I know of people using those pills and having several different issues. Clearly you don't have any, but just pondering any possible risks compared to the benefits. I hope what I wrote makes sense...


----------



## vvDO

Wow that's looking really nice and full. You also have a couple of nice focal points.

I have a Barclaya longifolia and leaves grow to over 12" so much so they can place half of my 20L in shade. I wonder if they would grow even larger in your tank with proper nutrients and more room.

What are your plans for the foreground?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Man you guys are tripping lol, but thanks! :red_mouth 



fablau said:


> Wishing you the deserved winning.... I am wondering if you really notice any difference in putting O+ under your plants and if you think it is worth it... from what your wrote earlier it looks like you couldn't tell, but... I am just wondering if by adding those "pills" could ever cause any negative issues such as uncontrolled increase of traces in the water column... just thinking aloud since I know of people using those pills and having several different issues. Clearly you don't have any, but just pondering any possible risks compared to the benefits. I hope what I wrote makes sense...


Negative effects, Ive had it spike P levels before. Mainly during the first week or so then it stopped. Ive seen other folks say it spiked ammonia or nitrite but never experienced that.

And Ive used a pretty good bit before, like starting out this 20 gal










Not sure if you've seen that^ thread or not, but it gives a pretty good idea if it helps or not (*in that particular set-up, with those particular plants)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html



vvDO said:


> Wow that's looking really nice and full. You also have a couple of nice focal points.
> 
> I have a Barclaya longifolia and leaves grow to over 12" so much so they can place half of my 20L in shade. I wonder if they would grow even larger in your tank with proper nutrients and more room.
> 
> What are your plans for the foreground?


Thanks

Plans for the foreground? Far left gonna move the Myrio closer to the front. Besides doing that, the foreground is set.


----------



## BayazGouramiz

Absolutely insane!!! That tank is just plain unbelievable. The moss wall is like perfect. Gonna have to try that as I love it. If thats Diplis Diandra I"ve never seen it look so nice.


----------



## Sean W.

The thing I miss the most about having a hightech tank... Receiving plants from @burr740


----------



## BayazGouramiz

fablau said:


> Wishing you the deserved winning.... I am wondering if you really notice any difference in putting O+ under your plants and if you think it is worth it... from what your wrote earlier it looks like you couldn't tell, but... I am just wondering if by adding those "pills" could ever cause any negative issues such as uncontrolled increase of traces in the water column... just thinking aloud since I know of people using those pills and having several different issues. Clearly you don't have any, but just pondering any possible risks compared to the benefits. I hope what I wrote makes sense...


If you have an inert substrate and dont add O+ your plants will suffer. Time and time again I've slacked on or been afraid to add more O+ and the plants start to not do as well. Then I add the O+ and the color and growth comes back. The stems just look way healthier. Its super obvious. All I do is take a capsule and fill it only like a 1/4 full if that and put them in around every plant group. Helps a lot. Theres a reason O+ is so popular as its effective and safe as long as you dont overdue it. Pretty much a must even if you use ADA imho. In my low tech it didnt take long for the ADA to become lacking in nutrients and now after I added some O+ everything started to grow better, gain more color and actually look decent. Algae also seems to dissipate as the plants are using up more of the nutrients in the water as well. We expect our plants to feed from the water column but they have roots for a reason. Might as well ensure they are getting fed both ways to the best of our ability. There is a risk in spiking nutrients if you let the balls just flounder out of the substrate and sit there leaching way faster then they should and right into the water column other than that there is no risk I dont think. There are several forums where people give directions on how much to apply. I dont use that much just to make sure I'm not overdoing it, but I have in the past and it didnt do anything until I unburied a bunch and left it there. I got high nitrates and some algae.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Man you guys are tripping lol, but thanks! :red_mouth
> 
> 
> 
> Negative effects, Ive had it spike P levels before. Mainly during the first week or so then it stopped. Ive seen other folks say it spiked ammonia or nitrite but never experienced that.
> 
> And Ive used a pretty good bit before, like starting out this 20 gal
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if you've seen that^ thread or not, but it gives a pretty good idea if it helps or not (*in that particular set-up, with those particular plants)
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Plans for the foreground? Far left gonna move the Myrio closer to the front. Besides doing that, the foreground is set.




Thanks Burr for referencing that fantastic old thread of yours about the root-feeders experiment. I read through all of it, but I can't understand how you could grow AR with so much ferts in both water column and roots. Didn't you have the same issues with full EI at that time?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Thanks Burr for referencing that fantastic old thread of yours about the root-feeders experiment. I read through all of it, but I can't understand how you could grow AR with so much ferts in both water column and roots. Didn't you have the same issues with full EI at that time?


Well I mean, it grew but even the "good" side looked like hell. And yeah, this was around the same time I was killing more sensitive species in the 75 with EI micros...for the first time.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Well I mean, it grew but even the "good" side looked like hell. And yeah, this was around the same time I was killing more sensitive species in the 75 with EI micros...for the first time.




Ah, ok... From the pics it looked good enough to me, that's why I wondered....


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Ah, ok... From the pics it looked good enough to me, that's why I wondered....


Also keep in mind that light was pretty low, 50-60 PAR in the beginning, and down around 35 by the time it was over (due to that wal-mart bulb)

Lower light helps mitigate "toxicity" because plants arent being driven to absorb so much.

Just another reason why less light is more forgiving. Big difference between having 50 PAR and....120


----------



## Omar EAZi

btw the moss you used on the riverwood pieces in your tank, what type of moss is it?!


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Also keep in mind that light was pretty low, 50-60 PAR in the beginning, and down around 35 by the time it was over (due to that wal-mart bulb)
> 
> Lower light helps mitigate "toxicity" because plants arent being driven to absorb so much.
> 
> Just another reason why less light is more forgiving. Big difference between having 50 PAR and....120




Good point... I have 50-60 PAR and still have terrible ARs and had a lot of toxicity issues... is that with lower light everything is running just slower, and eventually it'll take is toll in the long run anyway, or low light can really reduce damage? Not sure about that... in my experience is it more true the former idea. I have a low-tech tank with 20 PAR and had similar toxicity issues. Actually I would think the opposite: strong light = faster metabolism = faster depletion of nutrients, then less chances for accumulation? Hard to understand what path to follow...


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Good point... I have 50-60 PAR and still have terrible ARs and had a lot of toxicity issues... is that with lower light everything is running just slower, and eventually it'll take is toll in the long run anyway, or low light can really reduce damage? Not sure about that... in my experience is it more true the former idea. I have a low-tech tank with 20 PAR and had similar toxicity issues. Actually I would think the opposite: strong light = faster metabolism = faster depletion of nutrients, then less chances for accumulation? Hard to understand what path to follow...


Higher light = faster depletion of nutrients in the water column, yes -because the plants are being driven to absorb more nutrients.

The problem comes when they are absorbing too much. Unlike roots, and contrary to current dogma, leaves arent always equipped to stop absorbing compounds that arent needed.

Im sure there's some research links to be found out there. Marcel Goias recent experiments have proved it. Although he hasnt publicly published the results yet, I dont think he'd mind me sharing the gist of one of them...

In Wallichii and B monnerii, nutrient concentration in the dry weight analysis INCREASED DRAMATICALLY at higher dosing, in spite of growth slowing down, and the plants eventually stunting severely. (specifically N, Fe, Mn and Mo increased, iirc)

If it were true that plants only absorb what they need, this wouldnt happen.

What nutrients can be "shut off", and how well a plant can do it, Im sure this varies between species.

Makes perfect sense if you think about it. How can something be toxic if the plant doesnt absorb it?

And what drives absorption?

Light

Just from my own experience, toxicity rarely occurs at lower light levels. I can get away with far more dosing in the 40 par tanks. Of course plants dont grow as big or nice as they do under more light. but the "tox" factor isnt there.

From our PM convos and following your journal on barr report, I think its more llikely that you are lacking something at this point. You arent dosing enough to be "toxic", imho

That aromatica is definitely low on Fe. And Ive seen leaves crinkle up from deficiencies the same way they do from too much. Symptoms of too much and not enough look about the same. Which is why it can be so hard to figure out sometimes.

If I were you Id ditch the dtpa and go with all gluc, see what happens. Im starting to think all chelates are the devil.


----------



## burr740

Welp, the new indica I bought turned out to be a rotundifolia type, not the true "bonsai" version, dammit










So now its plan B, C or D for right here.Currently auditioning Lobelia cardinalis small form.

Contrast is spot on but it needs to gain some height in a hurry. Ideally at least twice as tall as the Penthorum. Gave it some O+, we'll see...










Have a couple other things in mind if that doesnt work out, none that Im real crazy about though. Of all places to have a conundrum two weeks out, it just had to be front and freakin center!



Omar EAZi said:


> btw the moss you used on the riverwood pieces in your tank, what type of moss is it?!


Christmas on the walls. Fissidens fox on the logs.

Not a very good pic, think I need to back up some


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Higher light = faster depletion of nutrients in the water column, yes -because the plants are being driven to absorb more nutrients.
> 
> The problem comes when they are absorbing too much. Unlike roots, and contrary to current dogma, leaves arent always equipped to stop absorbing compounds that arent needed.
> 
> Im sure there's some research links to be found out there. Marcel Goias recent experiments have proved it. Although he hasnt publicly published the results yet, I dont think he'd mind me sharing the gist of one of them...
> 
> In Wallichii and B monnerii, nutrient concentration in the dry weight analysis INCREASED DRAMATICALLY at higher dosing, in spite of growth slowing down, and the plants eventually stunting severely. (specifically N, Fe, Mn and Mo increased, iirc)
> 
> If it were true that plants only absorb what they need, this wouldnt happen.
> 
> What nutrients can be "shut off", and how well a plant can do it, Im sure this varies between species.
> 
> Makes perfect sense if you think about it. How can something be toxic if the plant doesnt absorb it?
> 
> And what drives absorption?
> 
> Light
> 
> Just from my own experience, toxicity rarely occurs at lower light levels. I can get away with far more dosing in the 40 par tanks. Of course plants dont grow as big or nice as they do under more light. but the "tox" factor isnt there.
> 
> From our PM convos and following your journal on barr report, I think its more llikely that you are lacking something at this point. You arent dosing enough to be "toxic", imho
> 
> That aromatica is definitely low on Fe. And Ive seen leaves crinkle up from deficiencies the same way they do from too much. Symptoms of too much and not enough look about the same. Which is why it can be so hard to figure out sometimes.
> 
> If I were you Id ditch the dtpa and go with all gluc, see what happens. Im starting to think all chelates are the devil.




Makes perfect sense Burr, thank you! I am dosing additional 0.03 ppm Glut every other day now. We'll see if that'll make any difference...


----------



## burr740




----------



## Brian Rodgers

This is so inspiring. Being new to the hobby I can't add anything constructive. Someday perhaps. 
Brian


----------



## Chizpa305

Mhhh beautiful Dutch style. Is it just me or are the Downoi pinkish? Is it a certain variety of Downoi that gets that color or is it the lights that you are using or other parameters?


----------



## burr740

Thanks Brian!



Chizpa305 said:


> Mhhh beautiful Dutch style. Is it just me or are the Downoi pinkish? Is it a certain variety of Downoi that gets that color or is it the lights that you are using or other parameters?


Haha, yeah it's pinkish. That's Pogosteman helferi 'red' aka Red Downoi


----------



## Sean W.

Gotta update that there sig pic Joe


----------



## burr740

Sean W. said:


> Gotta update that there sig pic Joe


Nostalgia! 


So I wound up submitting the tank into the AGA Dutch category. turned out OK I guess. There's a few things I wish were different/better, sorta felt rushed at the end, but we'll see how it goes. Results will be announced mid Nov sometime, so no full tank shots of the final rendition until after that. Will probably be on another arrangement before then, have several new ideas in mind.


*Fert update;* I'll try to make this short and sweet as possible, any questions just ask.

Currently dosing .12 ppm Fe 3x week, with 50/50 DTPA and gluconate.

Wound up ditching the Marschner ratio, not enough B, and possibly Mo. A few weeks ago I went back to the previous v2.1 which had produced pretty good results. (@Greggz , @Immortal1 and Vin, this is about what you guys have with DTPA Fe) 

To begin with I decided to try using all gluconate at .075 ppm. A few things quickly developed a Fe deficiency, so I upped the dosage over the next couple of weeks to finally .12. Almost everything was happy, very happy, except for the Oldenlandia and L aromatica mini in the 120. This was a week before the final contest pics....not good!! 

So I began injecting .03 DTPA every day down in the center of the aromatica bush. Not down in the substrate, just deep into the bush where it would hopefully stick around for a bit at a high concentration.

This worked OK, but improvement was slow. The Oldenlandia is a great Fe indicator. It's always the first thing to turn pale and can also fix itself in just a day or two. It was perfectly fine by the pic deadline. The aromatica was a lot better but not quite there yet. Here's some pics.

Severely deficient











Few days later, getting better












Couple weeks later, doing fairly well












Didiplis diandra. First pic is at the end of .12 with all gluc. It's growing nice, seems perfectly happy











Here it is after about a week of .12 using the 50/50 DTPA/gluc blend.











No real change in growth or shape, just colored up differently. Some would say better


For reference if you compared v2.1 to csmb, it has considerably more B and Mn, about the same Zn and Mo, and a bit less Cu.

Its amazing to me how this much is favorable now, almost 10x more than I used to be able to dose without bringing on some sort of catastrophe.

Im convinced the EDTA Fe in csmb was causing big problems at my particular PH. Vin has been trying to convince me to retest csmb at these levels. He's right, I should definitely do that to confirm whether the previous results repeat. Otherwise it's mere speculation. Probably do that soon, in at least one tank.....maybe.


----------



## Dempsey

Dude... "bows" You are the king right now....


----------



## burr740

Heh, idk about that but thanks Clint

Pogosteman kimberly in the 75











Ludwigia rubin











Oto cat chillin on a blade of Persicaria sao paulo











Hygrophila siamesis 53B that Vin gave me a while back. I really like this plant, nice green bladed species. 











Like many other Hygros it is quick to develop a faux K deficiency if micros or Fe is too much. Im starting to think it mostly revolves around Fe. because recently micros have been through the roof with no problems, but it seems like I can still overdo the DTPA. More speculation of course.


Ludwigia sp red is a very good indicator too - of what exactly Im not sure - but it's very quick to protest by scrunching its little face up or turning abnormal colors if something isnt right. Tough plant otherwise, nearly impossible to kill and fixes easily. I keep a few in all 3 tanks just to watch.

Pretty happy











Rams are finally starting to show a little mature color. Bought these as GBR but it's looking like they may be the other, yellower kind, whatever that is











Amanos doing Amano stuff




















These Red Downoi are a lot bigger than they look, that's a quarter on the center brace


----------



## sdwindansea

Best of luck in the completion. Pictures look amazing and always appreciate your posts. I always learn something new...besides my tank will never be as nice as yours .


----------



## LRJ

Freakin incredible teaser shots. It's gonna be tough waiting till mid Nov.


----------



## Greggz

I was wondering if any of you TPT members are close enough to come over to my house.........I need some help tossing my 120G out the window!!! These pictures are the last straw!!:wink2::wink2:

Dang, Burr how do you do it? The health and colors of everything is just spectacular. You are defiantly setting the bar high, which I think is a good thing for everyone. Gives us all something to shoot for, and is an excellent example of what can be. 

And thanks again for documenting and sharing your journey. I'm sure I'm not the only who has read and reread your threads several times over.


----------



## ipkiss

Hey @burr740, where are you getting your separate micro components from? I see that nilogc has some dtpa and gluconate, but what about the other individual micros? I tried going backwards in this thread but I think I got a little glassy eyed by page 13. 

thanks
ps! good luck on the contest!


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys! ^



ipkiss said:


> Hey @*burr740*, where are you getting your separate micro components from? I see that nilogc has some dtpa and gluconate, but what about the other individual micros? I tried going backwards in this thread but I think I got a little glassy eyed by page 13.
> 
> thanks
> ps! good luck on the contest!


From Alpha Chemicals on Amazon and the bay. You'll need:

Mn - MnSO4.H2O
B - Na2B4O7-10H20 (Borax), or you can use boric acid
Zn - ZnSO4.H2O
Mo - Na2MoO4*2H2O
Cu - CuSO4.5H2O

Not trying to advertise a sale here, but if you'd rather not buy 500 years worth, let me know and I'll hook you up with a more reasonable amount of everything you need


----------



## PEdwards

Looking good, man! Don't worry too much about posting pictures here on TPT. I don't think the other two judges come here. I'm positive one of them doesn't, at least and if the other one did/does then she's probably already seen your tank. I picked yours out of the line-up right away so you should be safe now. Just don't go spreading it all over Facebook or the like.


----------



## Jaye

Your tank is beautiful.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Jaye



PEdwards said:


> Looking good, man! Don't worry too much about posting pictures here on TPT. I don't think the other two judges come here. I'm positive one of them doesn't, at least and if the other one did/does then she's probably already seen your tank. I picked yours out of the line-up right away so you should be safe now. Just don't go spreading it all over Facebook or the like.


Thats good to know. Thanks!

After seeing that FB thread I was thinking welp, too late in my case because anyone who reads tpt will already know who it belongs to.

But regardless, for etiquette's sake Im not going to post any of the final pics until after the results come out.

Mostly I just want to show an fts so I can rant about everything I dont like, lol. 

Plenty of time for that later though.


----------



## PortalMasteryRy

@burr740: Sell me some secret sauce or Chemical X! lol

I've been wanting to buy those but I get a little worried with all the chemicals in the house. I'd hate to store another few pounds of something that could blow up lol.

Would you sell a few ounces of the ZnSO4.H2O and Na2MoO4*2H2O?


----------



## burr740

Of course, but

Please use PM for any sales inquiries, per site rules. 

My apologies for starting down that road in the first place


----------



## The Dude1

Simply stunning. What is most impressive to me is that you are able maintain such diversity while keeping each species in its optimal parameters. You defy divergent evolution with such impunity!


----------



## Aceman

@burr740 just wondering if you’ve make a plant list yet ?


----------



## burr740

Thanks Dude! 

@Aceman , yes but the only way it'll make sense is if I post the entry pic with the numbers on it. I'd like to wait about doing that.

But fwiw here's the actual list. If you look back at the last FTS posted, these are roughly left to right. Only difference (I think) is Hydrothrix in the middle where the Rotala rotundifolia was.

1: Myriophyllum guyana, 2: Acmella repens, 3: Isoetes lacustris, 4:Ludwigia sp. red, 5: Didiplis diandra, 6: Pogosteman helferi 'red', 7: Hydrothrix gardneri, 8: Penthorum sedoides, 9: Barclaya longifolia red, 10: Hygrophila siamesis 53b, 11: Bacopa colorata, 12: Oldenlandia salzmannii, 13: Limnophila aromatica mini, 14: Persicaria sao paulo. 

I'll post this again along with the numbered picture to go along with it when the time comes.


----------



## Aceman

burr740 said:


> Thanks Dude!
> 
> @Aceman , yes but the only way it'll make sense is if I post the entry pic with the numbers on it. I'd like to wait about doing that.
> 
> But fwiw here's the actual list. If you look back at the last FTS posted, these are roughly left to right. Only difference (I think) is Hydrothrix in the middle where the Rotala rotundifolia was.
> 
> 1: Myriophyllum guyana, 2: Acmella repens, 3: Isoetes lacustris, 4:Ludwigia sp. red, 5: Didiplis diandra, 6: Pogosteman helferi 'red', 7: Hydrothrix gardneri, 8: Penthorum sedoides, 9: Barclaya longifolia red, 10: Hygrophila siamesis 53b, 11: Bacopa colorata, 12: Oldenlandia salzmannii, 13: Limnophila aromatica mini, 14: Persicaria sao paulo.
> 
> I'll post this again along with the numbered picture to go along with it when the time comes.




Amazing, thank you very much. And a big thank you for your hard work and inspiration.


----------



## Tom Barr

burr740 said:


> Im convinced the EDTA Fe in csmb was causing big problems at my particular PH. Vin has been trying to convince me to retest csmb at these levels. He's right, I should definitely do that to confirm whether the previous results repeat. Otherwise it's mere speculation. Probably do that soon, in at least one tank.....maybe.


I had issues years ago with Marin Tap, but preferred Tropica master grow which had better chelators for my tap's alkalinity. 
Many did, while others said the CMS vs TMG made little to do no difference. 

Go back and forth several times. More so with traces than say CO2...........because they are traces, it'll take longer for limitations to occur.
CO2 impacts are dramatic. 

My L mini aro got a nice weird yellow to copper color, try directing water flow over it. 
It'll make it more compact.

I like the Isoetes and the L. red. L red frames so many plants very nicely. 
If you want to scape this more towards the NBAT style, get those groups sloping up to the back top edge. 

See if you can angle a bulb or two at a 30 degree angle to the back.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Tom

Pantanal's been on a hot streak lately in the 75. They arent prime specimens, but they're growing fast with decent size, and for the past month they arent dying when I replant the tops. 

In the 75





























Wallichii in the 50 is doing pretty good, not as big in diameter as they could be 











Rotala macranda caterpillar that Vin gave me, it's lovin life right now. This is day 6 fwiw, water change tomorrow.










Stuck a few Pantanal in the 120 to se how it goes











Mini aromatica in pretty good shape











What's left of the Downoi, re-homed 16 big ol' good uns. These last two are gone Monday. Everything else is scraps and baby side shoots. Got 7-8 more coming out in 75. Will probably continue a group of these somewhere in the 120










Bump: Speaking of which...starting to make a new arrangement












Took out most of the hardscape pieces. The two big logs didnt really add much interest, just taking up space mostly. Probably leave this one little branch as a point of interet somewhere.


One thing I need to get better at (as @Tom Barr just pointed out) is creating stronger front to back depth using longer rows in ascending height, as compared to simple round groups which the previous scape had too many of...imo.

The penthorum is getting scaled back A LOT pretty soon. Everything else is sorta tentative. Gonna work some Pogo kimberly in somewhere. Persicaria on the right side, probably not gonna stay

Took out the Barclaya, that thing was 2 feet wide! Might move the Red Ludwigia behind the Isoetes similar to before, great look but its a pita to maintain in the very back back behind something. And not sure I wanna do the exact same thing again

Thinking about a few Crypt 'green gecko' about where the Downoi is. I really like that plant. The problem in the old 75 was it grew flat as a pancake. I always assumed it was from so much light. But they've been growing differently in the 75 lately with almost as much so Im gonna try a few somewhwere, be a nice dark green addition.


----------



## LRJ

Really like that trio of the ludwigia red, pantanal and hygro. The ludwigia red is nice and full. Are you trimming that hedge style these days? Also, are you trimming the fissidens, and if so, in the tank or out of the tank? It's got nice shape.


----------



## Williak

Gosh man, beautiful beautiful stems. Looks amazing as usual

Bump: Gosh man, beautiful beautiful stems. Looks amazing as usual


----------



## burr740

Thanks Williak!



LRJ said:


> Really like that trio of the ludwigia red, pantanal and hygro. The ludwigia red is nice and full. Are you trimming that hedge style these days? Also, are you trimming the fissidens, and if so, in the tank or out of the tank? It's got nice shape.


The ludwigia is all freshly planted tops. I do 2-3 at a time in the same hole. Once they grow up and get ready for the first trim I'll mow it down and leave the stumps. Fill in with a top or two wherever there's a space. Can do this at least three or four times before the bottom gets extremely dense, then its time to start it over again.

I havent trimmed the Fissidens at all yet. Its at least 3/4" thick, maybe an inch. Gotta do that soon. I'd planned on just mowing it down almost to the wood with scissors - definitely outside the tank. 

How do you trim yours? It always looks great


----------



## rasaccount

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

Beautiful tank. How do you keep the separation of species so clean? I struggle to prevent one species from sort of bleeding into another over time - it must be a ton of maintenance!


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> I havent trimmed the Fissidens at all yet. Its at least 3/4" thick, maybe an inch. Gotta do that soon. I'd planned on just mowing it down almost to the wood with scissors - definitely outside the tank.
> 
> How do you trim yours? It always looks great


I never trimmed mine either. Guess it's one that keeps nice shape on its own. It does get pretty massive eventually though. Right around the time I was about to be forced to trim mine, I swapped it out to try mini pellia for a while. 

I know some people trim in tank and use airline tubing to siphon out the pieces as they go, but I doubt I'd be able to pull that off. Only thing about trimming it out of tank is if you don't give it a full buzz cut like you plan to do, I think it'd be real tough to keep its shape unless you submerged it in a tub or something and trimmed under water. 

I'd probably go with the buzz cut. I do that with the pellia now. Didn't tie the pellia down like I did the fissidens, so I trim it regularly to make sure it doesn't detach from the wood.


----------



## burr740

rasaccount said:


> Beautiful tank. How do you keep the separation of species so clean? I struggle to prevent one species from sort of bleeding into another over time - it must be a ton of maintenance!


When first planting its good to leave a couple inches between groups. Then as things grow out keeping them off one another is sorta like routine maintenance. The borders get pruned just like the tops, etc


----------



## sohankpatel

I just got some of the Hygro 53b a while back, it is painfully slow growing to say the least


----------



## burr740

Was asked about trimming Penthorum on BR

To keep it low, after it's rooted good you can just mow it down to the ground. The same way you'd do Staurogyne repens and the like. Its a very tough plant.

It'll come back thicker and more compact.










^ notice one pantanal about to give up the ghost. The rest looking OK so far, 3 days since moving.

Or you can let the Penthorum go and it'll continue straight up with very little branching. Hard to get the perspective here, the one in back is probably 8" tall










Bump:


sohankpatel said:


> I just got some of the Hygro 53b a while back, it is painfully slow growing to say the least


Yeah it likes to branch a lot, takes a while to gain height. Did you wind up entering the AGA?


----------



## Chizpa305

The plant colors in your tank is something to behold in awe. I want to know more about your fertilizing regime. You talk in terms of ppm, but I am kind of ignorant in this area. Could you shed some light on this? Maybe give me a link to a good article that talks about how to measure these nutrients in terms of ppm.


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> Was asked about trimming Penthorum on BR
> 
> To keep it low, after it's rooted good you can just mow it down to the ground. The same way you'd do Staurogyne repens and the like. Its a very tough plant.


Thanks for the info burr, now I need to work it into the scape somewhere. Sometimes to many options is a bad thing.............


----------



## burr740

Chizpa305 said:


> The plant colors in your tank is something to behold in awe. I want to know more about your fertilizing regime. You talk in terms of ppm, but I am kind of ignorant in this area. Could you shed some light on this? Maybe give me a link to a good article that talks about how to measure these nutrients in terms of ppm.


Thanks Chizpa

PPM stands for parts per million. Its a reference point for measuring how much we are dosing, or what exists in the water column, etc.

Different systems have different requirements. Low light tanks without co2 need less of everything, high light w/co2 needs more. 

Nutrient calculators are used to figure out how much of a particular compound to dose for a certain ppm. This is a good one - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

Its simpler than it looks at first glance. "DIY" is for dry salts like KNO3, "premixed" is for name brand products like Fourish Comp.

More fields will appear as you fill in the boxes. Play around with it, and if you have any more questions I'll be glad to help if I can


----------



## burr740

All those new Pantanal in the 120 went south. Ive pinched the tips off most of them and new shoots are coming out nice. Probably yank these soon because I want to get on with scaping a new layout.

If I cut the tops of Pantanal and leave the stumps, new shoots come in nice. And they'll stay nice all the way to the surface until I cut and replant them. then its 50/50 whether they'll survive or not.

By survive I just mean the main top. At the least bit of stress the main top stunts, then the plant abandons it and attempts to start itself over with new shoots. Seen a lot of stems work that way if something happens. What this tells me is they arent very happy to begin with for whatever reason

I know Vin can take his out and mop the floor with them, put them back and they'll be all good. Mine, not so much...










Peep the drop checker.  I rigged it up like this to check co2 at various low levels, which is about all they're good for imo. The color didnt come through very well in the pic, it's basically a transparent lime green


----------



## burr740

Following @slipfinger 's lead I grabbed one of those Powerveg 633 bulbs. Boy that is one red mofo!











So red I had to do some major rearranging with the other bulbs. After much ado, finally replaced one of the Trulumen Floras with a 6500K, the 633 went in place of another TL F, so now there's only one of those left in front (right side of the pic)

R-L: TL Flora, 3000K, ZooMed actinic, Powerveg 633, 6500K, ATI purple

Not sure if this is final, its not bad but I'll probably try some other combos

*Ignore the general disarray  











The Hydor canister is on the right with CO2 is connected to it. The outflow is pointed down, aimed roughly at the very bottom dead center of the tank.

The SunSun is on the left with the outflow aimed at the surface blowing straight across. It has a 1" outflow pipe to cut down the velocity, also has a ball valve maybe 30% closed. 

Here's the Hydor outflow.










Was talking to @Greggz on BR about the color of B colorata under different light. This is a good example. Took this pic when I first got the new bulb and stuck it in back in place of...something I dont remember exactly. Compare it here to the FTS shot above, looks totally different. 

The top of the moss walls are kinda ragged from being covered in Pennywort for the past couple of months. Im going back with H. japan this time and see how that works out. Also the back doesnt get nearly as much light as the sides, the moss on the back grows different than the sides, more like low tech

Surface with only the Hydor filter running










Surface with both on


----------



## burr740

Had the bright idea to put the Didiplis in the corner and the Acmella xort of in front/beside. Yeah that's not gonna work at all...










All this Acmella is new shoots coming out from stumps, 2-3 from each one and they stay perfectly vertical, which is nice











Limnophila aromatica mini seems fully recovered


----------



## Triport

I will never get tired of your photos of that rainbow light reflection.


----------



## fablau

That bush of aromatics is fantastic Burr! Trying to do something like that myself...


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Following @slipfinger 's lead I grabbed one of those Powerveg 633 bulbs. Boy that is one red mofo!


Wow, that is the most red bulb I have seen. Any idea of how it's PAR might compare to the others? 

Just curious, as I might try one, but I think I am at the edge of high PAR now (135 substrate), and toning it down might be more beneficial than ramping it up even higher.

And thanks for listing out your current dosing, always good food for thought.


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> Following @slipfinger 's lead I grabbed one of those Powerveg 633 bulbs. Boy that is one red mofo!


I still have to mess around with my bulb layout, I'd like to bring the red bulb a slot or two closer to the front. I am still waiting on the PowerVeg 660 to be delivered. My plan was never to run them together, but for shats and giggles I'll throw them both in the fixture to see what it looks like. 

I wish my reflectors were as clean as yours, I bought my fixture second hand off a salty and he allowed salt water to splash up on to the reflectors. I spend a week hand polishing each reflector which got them back to about 90%. 

Tank is looking amazing as usual.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Wow, that is the most red bulb I have seen. Any idea of how it's PAR might compare to the others?


Oh yeah I did measure the PAR and forgot to mention it, was pleasantly surprised it's a pretty low PAR bulb. Because the last thing I need is more.

The 3000K is the highest PAR bulb I have, followed closely by most 6500Ks.

I measured with just the two middle bulbs on, near the top of the Acmella directly underneath.

63 with the 3000K and the blue actinic(lowest par bulb)
46 with the Powerveg and the actinic
A TrueLumen flora would probably be in the low 50s

With all 6 running it's in the 107 -112 range at the substrate now, so it dropped a few points. Adding the 6500K in place of one flora bumped it back up 

Probably need to check it again after a few days, I think it takes several hours for a new bulb to "burn in", so it may wind up being higher. It was on maybe 30-45 minutes when I measured this time 




slipfinger said:


> I still have to mess around with my bulb layout, I'd like to bring the red bulb a slot or two closer to the front. I am still waiting on the PowerVeg 660 to be delivered. My plan was never to run them together, but for shats and giggles I'll throw them both in the fixture to see what it looks like.


I'll be interested to see what the 660 looks like on yours. Probably wind up grabbing one of those too to see which one looks better


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> With all 6 running it's in the 107 -112 range at the substrate now, so it dropped a few points. Adding the 6500K in place of one flora bumped it back up


 @burr740 I know I have already asked this but can't remember if it was on here or BR. Whats the distance form fixture to sub?


----------



## sohankpatel

Wait, you are telling me that I am running more light (140 PAR), yet can't begin to grow what you can? (headbang). I struggle with some of the harder species, what is your water chemistry? Are you using RO? I know you have a super complex fert regime, so i wont try to understand it. Did Pantanal do well for you?


----------



## slipfinger

sohankpatel said:


> Wait, you are telling me that I am running more light (140 PAR), yet can't begin to grow what you can? (headbang).


I don't think there is a plant out there that can not be grown with 100 par, or even less. Once you get above that all you're doing is causing yourself grief and more work. I personally need to heed my own advice and tone down my par levels even more. I used to be around 160+ at substrate, removed my 6500K bulbs and raised my fixture to get me around 120 at sub. I also only run all six bulbs for 6hrs of my 8hr photo period. The other 2 hours is only 2 bulbs.


----------



## burr740

slipfinger said:


> @*burr740* I know I have already asked this but can't remember if it was on here or BR. Whats the distance form fixture to sub?


The fixture is 9" above the tank, about 31" from the sub



sohankpatel said:


> Wait, you are telling me that I am running more light (140 PAR), yet can't begin to grow what you can? (headbang). I struggle with some of the harder species, what is your water chemistry? Are you using RO? I know you have a super complex fert regime, so i wont try to understand it. Did Pantanal do well for you?


My fert routine is not complex, its basically EI macros and 1/2-1/3 EI micros. I just happen to blend the micros myself.

If you have 140 PAR that is the problem. Things would grow a lot better in the 80-100 range because the plants arent being pushed so hard.


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> The fixture is 9" above the tank, about 31" from the sub


I guess I could have just measured my fixture. I moved mine up to 31" or so after the last time I asked you. Basically my par values should be very similar to yours as we are running almost the same bulb configuration now. 

I'm going to call the guy tomorrow about the 660n bulb and put some heat on him, its been almost 3 weeks since I ordered it. I'm thinking once installed along side the 633 some green plants will instantly become red, or at least look red!


----------



## sohankpatel

burr740 said:


> The fixture is 9" above the tank, about 31" from the sub
> 
> 
> 
> My fert routine is not complex, its basically EI macros and 1/2-1/3 EI micros. I just happen to blend the micros myself.
> 
> If you have 140 PAR that is the problem. Things would grow a lot better in the 80-100 range because the plants arent being pushed so hard.


That's an interesting point. The plants being pushed very hard is something I haven't heard before. I am only getting that 140 in the center of my tank, directly between my fixtures. I am more in the 110 ish range in most of the tank. How would more light push the plants harder? I mean, a lot of plants live in the sun which will max out par meters at around 4k, so it cant be detrimental, can it?


----------



## Byronyk

I got to say, this is probably one of my favorite tanks on this forum. I'm planning on converting one of my 20g's into a dutch style aquascape primarily because of how inspired this thread made me feel! 

Keep up the good work.


----------



## sohankpatel

Byronyk said:


> I got to say, this is probably one of my favorite tanks on this forum. I'm planning on converting one of my 20g's into a dutch style aquascape primarily because of how inspired this thread made me feel!
> 
> Keep up the good work.


Just an FYI, this tank doesnt adhere to NBAT rules, which are the "official" dutch rules. It comes quite close though. Look at the AGA submissions from 2015 or 2014, they have some perfect examples of dutch, one in a particular is a 10 footer that is the shining example of dutch. If you have any questions you can pm me, I did a stupid amount of research into dutch before submitting my tank to AGA this year (No pics cause of AGA rules).


----------



## Byronyk

sohankpatel said:


> Just an FYI, this tank doesnt adhere to NBAT rules, which are the "official" dutch rules. It comes quite close though. Look at the AGA submissions from 2015 or 2014, they have some perfect examples of dutch, one in a particular is a 10 footer that is the shining example of dutch. If you have any questions you can pm me, I did a stupid amount of research into dutch before submitting my tank to AGA this year (No pics cause of AGA rules).


I guess I should have said Dutch-ish/Dutch-Y/Dutch-like.


----------



## burr740

Here's a good video George Farmer just made featuring three tanks by Dutch masters, Bart Laurens, and Fred and Willem van Wezel (father and son) 

These guys are currently the gold standard for Dutch Style tanks


----------



## Triport

Those tanks are bonkers. The first one had the exact same combo of fish I am going to do in my 40 so that was kind of cool to see.


----------



## rs1

What's the name of the start like green plants in the front right of the tank?


----------



## burr740

rs1 said:


> What's the name of the start like green plants in the front right of the tank?


In the very front right is Limnophila aromatica mini


----------



## tylergvolk

Burr, are you using root tabs as well as your water column dosing? Bart L. In his 2017 AGA convention presentation discussed his use of use DIY root tabs consisting of powder clay and CSM+B. I was just curious what your using for root tabs if anything.


----------



## tylergvolk

I've got another question about your scary low Micros. 0.015ppm CSM+B x3/wk is very very low when compared to 0.2ppm EI levels How do you get away with dosing such low micros with an inert substrate? I would assume an inert substrate would require more not less when compared to a high CEC substrates due to the reserve availability of nutrient in the substrate. I'm not critizing you results, only opening a discussion so we call can learn. 

I am planning a similar setup myself and I am hoping to learn more about you results. I am also very interested in hearing about the results from your work with mixing your own micros. Maybe you could let us know how much more micros your adding now that your mixing your own. Thanks.


----------



## burr740

tylergvolk said:


> Burr, are you using root tabs as well as your water column dosing? Bart L. In his 2017 AGA convention presentation discussed his use of use DIY root tabs consisting of powder clay and CSM+B. I was just curious what your using for root tabs if anything.


These days I use osmocote+ very sparingly. Single balls for example, one or two around each Downoi, might put 5 or 6 around Lagenandra or Barclaya. 

Any plant that's struggling might get a few. But Ive never seen it be a saving grace in that regard. It almost always comes back to what's going on in the water column (in my particular set-ups)



tylergvolk said:


> I've got another question about your scary low Micros. 0.015ppm CSM+B x3/wk is very very low when compared to 0.2ppm EI levels How do you get away with dosing such low micros with an inert substrate? I would assume an inert substrate would require more not less when compared to a high CEC substrates due to the reserve availability of nutrient in the substrate. I'm not critizing you results, only opening a discussion so we call can learn.
> 
> I am planning a similar setup myself and I am hoping to learn more about you results. I am also very interested in hearing about the results from your work with mixing your own micros. Maybe you could let us know how much more micros your adding now that your mixing your own. Thanks.


Oh boy, novels have been written and many lives lost debating "why" this phenomena exists, or if it even does.

The only thing I can say with much confidence, based on the collective anecdotal experiences of reading other folks results, is that inert substrates tend to need (or tolerate) LESS Fe/micros than high CEC substrates.

My personal explanation is high CEC subs ab/adsorb a lot of the micro elements, offering some degree of buffer or a slower delivery. Whereas with inert subs everything stays in the water.

Also the type of plants makes a difference as far as sensitivity goes. Many plants dont care one way or the other. Some species do, most Lythracae for example

As to my own "sensitivity" to csmb, why I had to dose so little, I believe its mostly due to my PH levels being unfavorable to the EDTA Fe in csmb.

EDTA breaks loose from Fe around 6.5. To the other micros it stays bound much higher, so we're just talking about Fe here.

My PH at peak co2 is in the low 6.s, but overnight the tank degasses to around 7.4 (fully de-gassed is in the 7.7 range.

So my PH is only favorable for EDTA Fe for a few hours every day.

When a chelate breaks loose from one thing, it is then free to bind with other stuff. EDTA also isnt biodegradeable, so it just sticks around only removed by water changes.

So when it breaks from Fe you have two potentially major problems, 1) all that free EDTA doing whatever it does (nobody really knows), and then you have Fe in whatever raw state it's in, at the very least unavailable to plants, and almost certainly binding with P into something else.

*Having said all that* - I do not believe micros themselves are as "toxic" as many folks think. 

Nor do I believe csmb is necessarily bad as along as PH levels are somewhat favorable. And here again, even with slightly higher PH levels, folks with high CEC substrates dont seem to experience this hyper sensitivity.

However, I do think it's important to remember csmb is made for agriculture/hydropinic use to treat hundreds or thousands of gallons at a time. What are the odds that the small fractions of a tsp we use has everything in the right amounts?? Slim to none imo. But it cant be all bad because too many people have good success with it.



To answer your last question, yes the whole dynamic has changed since rolling my own. Now .1 -.15 ppm Fe is favorable, and micros are adjusted to have better ratios than csmb, at least three compounds are much higher.

Safe to say Im dosing 10x more now than in previous years using csmb, and overall my plants have never looked better. Many many nagging little issues I always used to have are no more.

All of the above is my best guess as to why that is.

Here's a couple of threads you might find interesting. First one is a somewhat crude experiment I did with heavy O+ vs. nothing in inert sand, along with full, old school EI via CSMB. 

*Side note regarding "micro-tox" - This tank also had diy co2 running 24/7, so the PH level stayed at or below 6.5 all the time. No real sensitive plants were used, but its interesting that no toxicity symptoms were observed dosing .5 csmb 3x week, no algae either. But the main focus is on root supplementation

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html

This thread has a lot of experimentation with low vs high micros on many so-called sensitive species of plants. Its long but worth it, tons of good planted tank advice in general -

https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/


----------



## NightHedgie

burr740 said:


> As to my own "sensitivity" to csmb, why I had to dose so little, I believe its mostly due to my PH levels being unfavorable to the EDTA Fe in csmb.
> 
> EDTA breaks loose from Fe around 6.5. To the other micros it stays bound much higher, so we're just talking about Fe here.
> 
> My PH at peak co2 is in the low 6.s, but overnight the tank degasses to around 7.4 (fully de-gassed is in the 7.7 range.
> 
> So my PH is only favorable for EDTA Fe for a few hours every day.
> 
> When a chelate breaks loose from one thing, it is then free to bind with other stuff. EDTA also isnt biodegradeable, so it just sticks around only removed by water changes.
> 
> So when it breaks from Fe you have two potentially major problems, 1) all that free EDTA doing whatever it does (nobody really knows), and then you have Fe in whatever raw state it's in, at the very least unavailable to plants, and almost certainly binding with P into something else.


Hi Burr740, beautiful Beautiful tank.

if FE is only available during the time when your PH is in the low 6.s and the chelate breaks off when your tank degasses and raises above 6.5 and the FE goes south.... How do you maintain enough FE in the water column? Dose everyday when the PH is in the low 6.s?


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## burr740

Interesting fert development over the past week and a half.

Im starting to think gluconate is pretty much useless in my parameters,because raging Fe deficiencies show up whenever I try to rely heavily on it.

Rewind to a week and a half ago, Id been dosing custom micros at .06 dtpa and .04 gluconate. After a couple of weeks the limno was looking pale again, and a couple other species had familiar symptoms.

So I was like screw it and started dosing micros every day in all three tanks. By the end of the week there'd been a dramatic improvement in just about everything. Not just the fe symptoms, everything in general. 

So this week instead of daily dosing Im just doubling up - .12 dtpa and .08 gluc 3x 

Here's some pics from today

Pantanal in the 120



















In the 75, pardon the awful glare..



















Check out this stem of Pogo erectus in the 50. It's a virtual timeline for getting happier. Notice the increase in size comparing the top half to the bottom half.










It becoming pretty clear that my plants like higher levels of micros and Fe now. This is the most Ive ever dosed since switching to the custom blend. And Ive spent a lot of time screwing around with gluconate too, which I'll probably ditch entirely when this batch is up, go back to all dtpa at something like .1 -.15 ppm 3x

We'll see if the Pantanal holds up when I top and replant it this weekend. That's when the tips usually gnarl up. If it does well after the replant, then I believe the problem all along has bee a chronic shortage of one thing or another. That's the current theory.... 



NightHedgie said:


> Hi Burr740, beautiful Beautiful tank.
> 
> if FE is only available during the time when your PH is in the low 6.s and the chelate breaks off when your tank degasses and raises above 6.5 and the FE goes south.... How do you maintain enough FE in the water column? Dose everyday when the PH is in the low 6.s?


Ideally yes, but when the PH rises overnight you still get the free edta + Fe binding with P, and/or...whatever else happens. 

Which is why Ive abandoned edta entirely now. Its all explained in great detail through the last 10-20 pages or so, if anyone is curious enough to go back through it.


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## OreoP

burr740 said:


> Recently started 5 ppm KNO3, 1 ppm KH2PO4, 3x week, and .25 urea every day. The urea amounts to 1.1 ppm nitrate. 6 ppm K2SO4 on water change days


Are you still maintaining the same macros?


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## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Interesting fert development over the past week and a half.
> 
> Check out this stem of Pogo erectus in the 50. It's a virtual timeline for getting happier. Notice the increase in size comparing the top half to the bottom half.


Starting to wonder if this may be an issue in my tank - I have several stems that look kinda like this


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## PortalMasteryRy

@Burr: I know you are using Rick and Morty's Schezwan sauce in your micro solution =)

FYI I'll be doing the testing again probably this weekend. We'll resolve the Ca test soon enough. Too much stuff going on with work.


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## burr740

OreoP said:


> Are you still maintaining the same macros?


Ive inched P up to 1.75 ppm now, for no particular reason really, everything else is the same.

After each water change I add 4 ppm MgSO4 and 6 ppm K2SO4.

Also there's .25 urea in the micro mix, so it gets dosed every day and I dont have to fool with a separate bottle 



Immortal1 said:


> Starting to wonder if this may be an issue in my tank - I have several stems that look kinda like this


Like the top part or the lower part? That largest top is pretty happy.

And btw your latest batch of micros provides .1 ppm Fe using all DTPA. I'll PM the specifics here in a bit, should arrive tomorrow or sat most likely


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## PortalMasteryRy

Hey Burr! When you get a chance can you count how many leaves per node you get on your limnophila belem on average? I saw from your sale pictures and I remembered from the original stems I got from you that it only had 2 leaves per node. After I tweaked my B and Zn, my Limno. Belem nodes have 3 leaves like my Limno. Repens. Just wanted to check because same thing is happening with my green rotala which has a 3 leaves per node versus 2.


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## burr740

PortalMasteryRy said:


> Hey Burr! When you get a chance can you count how many leaves per node you get on your limnophila belem on average? I saw from your sale pictures and I remembered from the original stems I got from you that it only had 2 leaves per node. After I tweaked my B and Zn, my Limno. Belem nodes have 3 leaves like my Limno. Repens. Just wanted to check because same thing is happening with my green rotala which has a 3 leaves per node versus 2.


That is interesting.

Id say 97% of my belem has 2 leaves per node. Strangely enough, there's the odd one here and there with 3.


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## tylergvolk

burr740 said:


> To answer your last question, yes the whole dynamic has changed since rolling my own. Now .1 -.15 ppm Fe is favorable, and micros are adjusted to have better ratios than csmb, at least three compounds are much higher.
> 
> Safe to say Im dosing 10x more now than in previous years using csmb, and overall my plants have never looked better. Many many nagging little issues I always used to have are no more.
> 
> https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/



So, what your saying is that you tried dosing very very low micro for awhile but found that wasn't working very well and now you as back to dosing much more closer to EI levels at your own ratios?

I'm trying to understand what your doing. After reading through this journal is seems your dosing is all over the map. It seems as though you have found success regardless.


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## burr740

tylergvolk said:


> So, what your saying is that you tried dosing very very low micro for awhile but found that wasn't working very well and now you as back to dosing much more closer to EI levels at your own ratios?
> 
> I'm trying to understand what your doing. After reading through this journal is seems your dosing is all over the map. It seems as though you have found success regardless.


The change was I stopped using csmb and started rolling my own micros using non-chelated elements and dtpa Fe. The exact same compounds used in Flourish comp and Flourish trace - except for the Fe, which is gluconate in Flourish.

Its not that complicated, I know very little about chemistry and all that. Just buy the compounds separately and use the calculators to figure ppms. Try different formulas and see what works.


Now things are different. Im able to dose more "normal" levels with better results than ever across the board. See a deficiency, add more of something to fix it. This was never the case using csmb.

The problem with csmb, I think, was the edta chelate used for Fe. Its not suitable for my PH level, and all kinds of weird stuff can happen when a chelate breaks loose for the original compound.


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Its not that complicated, I know very little about chemistry and all that. Just buy the compounds separately and use the calculators to figure ppms. Try different formulas and see what works.


Burr you shouldn't shatter the illusion. I'm sure like most people, I have this picture in my mind of you dressed in a white lab coat, pencils in the breast pocket, wearing big thick Mr. Magoo style glasses, beakers all over the table with white puffs of smoke coming out of them, and you stroking your chin while you peer into a microscope and solve the next micro crisis!!! :grin2::grin2:


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## johnson18

Greggz said:


> Burr you shouldn't shatter the illusion. I'm sure like most people, I have this picture in my mind of you dressed in a white lab coat, pencils in the breast pocket, wearing big thick Mr. Magoo style glasses, beakers all over the table with white puffs of smoke coming out of them, and you stroking your chin while you peer into a microscope and solve the next micro crisis!!! :grin2::grin2:




Don't forget that Burr is from Alabama, so I'm pretty sure your description is correct but the illusion was that he wasn't doing this in a shack in the middle of the woods, screaming about wanting to go fast the whole time. [emoji848][emoji23][emoji23]


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## Maryland Guppy

This could be the lab!:grin2:


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## Greggz

Maryland Guppy said:


> This could be the lab!:grin2:
> 
> View attachment 798210


Maryland Guppy thanks for the LOL!!!:grin2:


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## burr740

Yeah we finally built a new outhouse. I converted the old one into a lab!


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## vijay_06

burr740 said:


> Interesting fert development over the past week and a half.
> 
> It becoming pretty clear that my plants like higher levels of micros and Fe now. This is the most Ive ever dosed since switching to the custom blend. And Ive spent a lot of time screwing around with gluconate too, which I'll probably ditch entirely when this batch is up, go back to all dtpa at something like .1 -.15 ppm 3x


Hello! Have you stopped using gluconate? Are you dosing up to 0.15 ppm 3x or daily? I read in a recent post that you dose urea along with Micros daily and hence wanted to clarify.


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## burr740

vijay_06 said:


> Hello! Have you stopped using gluconate? Are you dosing up to 0.15 ppm 3x or daily? I read in a recent post that you dose urea along with Micros daily and hence wanted to clarify.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah Im sure it gets confusing trying to keep up. I should probably do a better job clarifying. 

Currently its .12 dtpa + .08 gluconate, 3x week. 

I only dosed daily for one week because deficiencies had set in using .06/.04 dtpa/gluc 3x week. That worked really well so the next week I just doubled up and went back to dosing micros every other day like normal. Total for the week is the same either way. 

Dosing routine for the week:
1) Water change - Macros + 4 ppm Mg, 7.5 ppm K (tap has plenty of Ca) 
2) Micros 
3) Macros
4) Micros
5) Macros
6) Micros
7) Either skip dosing or start over with a water change

Urea is included in both the macros and micros for convenience. That way I can dose it every day without having a separate bottle for it. The daily urea dose is .25 ppm

As mentioned before, I believe gluc is worthless in my parameters. Next thing Im going back to all dtpa at .15 or so and see how that works. I'd do that now I just hate to dump these full mixes out. Plus, using this a couple more weeks will give a better reference point for how things change.


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## vijay_06

Appreciate the detailed response!


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## burr740

Water change yesterday. I'd replanted the tallest Pantanal top three days ago. Pic is a little overexposed but you can see it took the move fairly well.










Redid the rest before the water change, along with a few other changes. I have a pretty good idea for the new arrangement but it's contingent on the Pantanal doing well.

Down she goes.....











And back up again










This is literally minutes after turning the filters back on. If there's one great thing about blasting sand its zero dust.

Swapped places with the Myrio and Aromatica mini. The little Myrio group doesnt look like much but damn that's a tedious process

*Other tentative plans:*

In front of the Red Ludwigia is either gonna be a Lagenandra or Opacus verde sword. Undecided whether to go back with the Red Downoi, might do something else..

Bacopa colorata probably getting replaced with Hygro 53B, or something else tall and green. Persicaria babies arent staying. (the leaves always droop when you move it btw) Thinking about Hyptis lorentziana there.

Didiplis...might do something else. Acmella is gonna stay in this general vicinity.

Pogo kimberly beside/behind the red lud on the left, and possibly something else down low in front.

Pantanal relocated. We'll see if it holds up...










Left the stumps for the time being. 










Aromatica restarted










Will work on the rest next week...


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## Greggz

So you are at that jumbled mess of indecision crossroads again?? Well, if past history is indicative of future results, my money would be on whatever you come up with will be spectacular as usual. 

Then next I will want to try all the new plants you show off. Then I have to redo my tank. And the cycle starts all over.

Here's the funny thing it makes me think of. I see some posts where folks meticulously draw out and plan a scape in great detail. What they don't realize is that a tank is always changing, and always a work in progress. I can't tell you how many times I stare at my tank for a few minutes. Then think about it for a few days. Then I'm in there moving things around again. It happens more times than one can imagine, and your tank is a perfect example of that.


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## slipfinger

Greggz said:


> What they don't realize is that a tank is always changing, and always a work in progress. I can't tell you how many times I stare at my tank for a few minutes. Then think about it for a few days. Then I'm in there moving things around again. It happens more times than one can imagine, and your tank is a perfect example of that.


I would actually hate to calculate how much time I have spent sitting on my little bucket staring at my tank wondering to myself, "If I move that plant there and this one over there." 
There are times my wife yells down asking if I'm still alive. 

As we have talked about already, learning to grow the plants is only a 1/3 of the battle. The other 2/3 is learning how to trim and actually scape with the plants. The only way to learn is to get in there and get your elbows wet. It takes time, it takes patiences and lastly which a lot of people don't get it takes work!

Mentioned this already on BR but the right side of the tank looks amazing. Its just flows so well, everything is literally perfect. Great work @burr740


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## LRJ

Plans sound awesome. Looking forward to watching this take shape again.


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## fablau

burr740 said:


> Yeah Im sure it gets confusing trying to keep up. I should probably do a better job clarifying.
> 
> Currently its .12 dtpa + .08 gluconate, 3x week.
> 
> I only dosed daily for one week because deficiencies had set in using .06/.04 dtpa/gluc 3x week. That worked really well so the next week I just doubled up and went back to dosing micros every other day like normal. Total for the week is the same either way.
> 
> Dosing routine for the week:
> 1) Water change - Macros + 4 ppm Mg, 7.5 ppm K (tap has plenty of Ca)
> 2) Micros
> 3) Macros
> 4) Micros
> 5) Macros
> 6) Micros
> 7) Either skip dosing or start over with a water change
> 
> Urea is included in both the macros and micros for convenience. That way I can dose it every day without having a separate bottle for it. The daily urea dose is .25 ppm
> 
> As mentioned before, I believe gluc is worthless in my parameters. Next thing Im going back to all dtpa at .15 or so and see how that works. I'd do that now I just hate to dump these full mixes out. Plus, using this a couple more weeks will give a better reference point for how things change.




Burr, I'd like to add some urea to my dosing as you are doing. Where do you get yours? Amazon? What compound? Thanks


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## burr740

fablau said:


> Burr, I'd like to add some urea to my dosing as you are doing. Where do you get yours? Amazon? What compound? Thanks


Alpha Chemicals 46-0-0 from Amazon or the bay

Amazon.com: Urea - (NH2)2CO - 46-0-0 Fertilizer - 1 Pound: Industrial & Scientific


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## slipfinger

fablau said:


> Burr, I'd like to add some urea to my dosing as you are doing. Where do you get yours? Amazon? What compound? Thanks


I started using Urea a while ago at .25ppm daily as well. The first thing I noticed was the growth rate of everything in the tank, plants seemed to love it. I did notice more GDA on the glass, I went from cleaning it once a week on water change day to a couple times a week. I decided to try adding the urea on macro day only, same dose but only 3x a week. Growth is still decent but not out of control, which is a positive and I'm back to once a week glass cleaning. I am happy with the results and think I've found a good balance using urea in my tank.


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## vijay_06

I have also taken inspiration from Burr’s work and have been dosing Urea for past 4 days. Might be too early to confirm, but plants seem to be showing slightly more growth. I am also noticing a bit more GDA on slow growing plants, but again too early to confirm. FYI - I am dosing only 0.1 ppm when lights come on in the morning. After a few days of monitoring, I plan to add another 0.1 ppm when the lights come back on in the evening after the siesta period.


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## burr740

GDA is the first and least risk of dosing urea. Green water and poisoned livestock are the greatest concerns.

Ive started and stopped twice. Both times at the very beginning saw a little gda on the glass. It went away after a week or two. Anytime there's a big shift in nutrient levels the whole system has to adjust -plants, bio filter, everything. 

Urea not only directly feeds plants but also the bio filter. It may take a little while for the population to equalize relative to the "food" it's getting. You're basically adding ammonia.

So dont sweat a little GDA at first. Give it a week or two and see what happens. Sunday's water change was the first time I'd wiped the front glass in 3 weeks.


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## fablau

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

Thank you Burr for the link and thank you guys for letting me know about GDA. I will watch for that and adjust the dose accordingly.


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## vijay_06

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

Thanks for the feedback on GDA.


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## clownplanted

To add to the excellent info from @burr740 If you notice GDA do not scrape it off right away. By scraping it off right away it just free swims back in the water and will keep collecting back on the glass. It is best to let it build up on the glass then after about 2-3 weeks scrape it off all at once. Then immediately after you scrape it off do a good sized water change. This greatly reduces it down and may keep it from coming back if the conditions have been corrected/equalized. If you just keep scraping it off like I said it just goes back in the water free swimming to collect back on the glass.

Sorry to hijack your thread @burr740


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## vijay_06

clownplanted said:


> To add to the excellent info from @burr740 If you notice GDA do not scrape it off right away. By scraping it off right away it just free swims back in the water and will keep collecting back on the glass. It is best to let it build up on the glass then after about 2-3 weeks scrape it off all at once. Then immediately after you scrape it off do a good sized water change. This greatly reduces it down and may keep it from coming back if the conditions have been corrected/equalized. If you just keep scraping it off like I said it just goes back in the water free swimming to collect back on the glass.
> 
> Sorry to hijack your thread @burr740



I second this. I used to have a lot of GDA on the walls during the first couple of months of tank setup. I read about what clownplanted has posted and left the tank without touching the GDA on the walls for 5 weeks before scraping it off. It has been 6 weeks since then, and I pretty much don’t get any GDA on the walls now. 

GDA on the slow growing plants and lower leaves of plants is the other battle I am currently fighting.


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## fablau

Bushy Nose Plecos helps a lot with GDA, mostly the young ones. A must have


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## burr740

Trimmed the moss walls for the first time earlier in the week. Took them out one at a time, put down some newspaper and leaned the panel upright against a 5 gal bucket. Then proceeded to give it a haircut letting the trimmings fall down on the newspaper. It was surprisingly easy.

The moss itself had gotten about 3" thick. Here's the before. Its the middle of the night so the plants are closed up





















After. 

Also added some Hydrocotyle tripartita japan around the top while the panels were out. Gonna try this instead of the Pennywort










Bump: Pantanal is going to hell again. I have a theory that the problem is it's perpetually starving for nutrients. The reason it's always done better in the 50, and lately in the 75 is because there's less light - about 20 par less, which puts less demand on it for everything.

Also two things happened this past week that might have contributed. That's what Im telling myself anyway. First I forgot to turn the UV off after last weeks water change. I usually run it for 24 hours after a big move until its time to dose micros again. Not sure if it breaks chelates or not, Ive read it "proven" both ways. Who knows.

The other thing is I forgot to double dose on the 2nd micro day like Ive been doing for the past two weeks. Instead of giving it 25 ML twice I just did it once, might've done it the first dose too I cant remember. Now...this should be a small insignificant matter, but maybe not if the plants are borderline starving to begin with.

Pics from today










A few are still good. The majority are turning bright red in the center (never a good sign in spite of being pretty). A few more have abandoned the top completely and sprouting side shoots.

The previous stumps have probably a dozen new stems conming out. I'll give the main group a few more days and top the bad ones. Then start over with a bunch younglings and see what happens....










One thing I do know - it's NOT from too much micros/Fe, because the same thing always happened at really low levels.

These past few weeks the more I dose the better everything looks. So the plan is to continue to increase micros and Fe unless something tells me otherwise.

I made a new batch of micros at .15 Fe without any gluconate. We'll see what happens.

If the next round or two of Pantanal doesnt act right then it's time to pick something else to scape with here. I'll move these to another tank and let them contemplate the ways of The Universe for a while


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## burr740

Now for the fun part!! Redid the right side and the Penthorum street.











Trying something different with the Penthorum. The street needs more personality, not just a big blob running straight. This isnt quite what I had in mind, will need to fine tune it after Ive had a chance to look at it for a bit.










Lagenandra meeboldi red in front

Hyptis lorentziana beside the Pantanal just to see how it might look. Its another plant I havent learned how to scape with yet. Dynamic purple tops though, drama free plant. Obviously it doesnt work in front of the Bacopa colorata but Im thinking that might be something green pretty soon.

Leopard vals in back left. I had them up front to begin with but the current kept folding them over.

I'll have to ask Vin what kind of grass that is in the front right, had it written down somewhere but cant find it. It gets really tall, sends out runners like Val that have to be kept in check.










Red Downoi starting over. Might do something different right here, guess I'll let these grow out for a while.










A few things I need to figure out what to do with, B colorata most likely staying jsut a matter of where. Didipls, Isoetes, not sure. Pogo kimberly is going somewhere. A lot depends on what the Pantanal does really.


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## Igor95

@burr740, what is the purple plant on the left, middle-ish side?


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## Greggz

First of all, the moss wall looks great trimmed, but boy that must be a LOT of work. 

Same with the Penthorum. I know how fast that stuff can grow, and seeing what you did with the street must have been some tedious work. I'm assuming you pulled/trimmed and planted just the tops? Do you ever just mow it down? 

And same with the Aromatica mini, as that's another one that grows like mad and needs a lot of attention. I do appreciate your work ethic!!

Interesting with the Pantanal. I doubt it has to do with the UV. I put one I had forget I had into my tank about a month ago. For me everything looks better than ever. But as usual.....who REALLY knows? My bet would be they want more of something. I'll report back on the ones I got from you once they get going here. 

Glad to see you plan to keep the Colorata. It's drama free and the color you get out of it is spectacular. As for Leopard Vals, I pulled mine, they just grew too big and didn't look right rippling on the top with all my surface agitation.


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## burr740

Igor95 said:


> @*burr740*, what is the purple plant on the left, middle-ish side?


With the big leaves is Lagenandra meeboldi red



Greggz said:


> First of all, the moss wall looks great trimmed, but boy that must be a LOT of work.
> 
> Same with the Penthorum. I know how fast that stuff can grow, and seeing what you did with the street must have been some tedious work. I'm assuming you pulled/trimmed and planted just the tops? Do you ever just mow it down?
> 
> And same with the Aromatica mini, as that's another one that grows like mad and needs a lot of attention. I do appreciate your work ethic!!
> 
> Interesting with the Pantanal. I doubt it has to do with the UV. I put one I had forget I had into my tank about a month ago. For me everything looks better than ever. But as usual.....who REALLY knows? My bet would be they want more of something. I'll report back on the ones I got from you once they get going here.
> 
> Glad to see you plan to keep the Colorata. It's drama free and the color you get out of it is spectacular. As for Leopard Vals, I pulled mine, they just grew too big and didn't look right rippling on the top with all my surface agitation.


Actually the moss trim went a lot smoother than I expected. Took about an hour and a half to do it all. It really helps being able to take the panels out. I cant imagine doing it inside the tank. That'd be a nightmare for real.

Definitely gotta mow the Penthorum because it grows so fast. The good news is it responds very well to a good mowing. Within a week the stump tops will be covered up by new side shoots.

And unlike some plants, you can mow it over and over and over, without the base getting all nasty and poor. This is the first time Ive replanted it from scratch since starting the previous scape a few months ago.

Good to know about the UV.


----------



## rhiro

@burr740 How important do you believe Manganese is? What dose are you using?


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> @*burr740* How important do you believe Manganese is? What dose are you using?


All the research Ive seen from many different sources say a 2:1 Fe:Mn ratio is best.

The problem when they get too far out of proportion is one blocks the uptake of the other one.

Here's a good read on it, concise and simple. This is a fertilizer company but their "training center" articles are really good

Role of Manganese in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX

There are tons of scientific studies in agriculture on the subject if you google hard enough. 

How important is the ratio? Im not sure. Csmb has a 3.5:1. I started adding Mn back when I was dosing very small amounts of csmb with a lot of extra Fe on top of it.

It did seem to improve a few things, but there was also a lot of other stuff going on so its hard to say really.

Tom Barr has dosed a 3:1:1 ratio of csmb:dtpa:gluconate for years, and countless other have copied him. That's almost 6:1. So I dont think it's extremely critical.

My personal opinion is that 2:1-3:1 is best. 5 or 6:1 is probably OK. But say a ratio of 10 or 20:1 would be asking for trouble.

Also ratios become more important dosing really low levels of everything. Not so much if you're larding it on

The custom blends I use all have a 2 or 2.5:1 ratio, for whatever that's worth.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Definitely gotta mow the Penthorum because it grows so fast. The good news is it responds very well to a good mowing. Within a week the stump tops will be covered up by new side shoots.
> 
> And unlike some plants, you can mow it over and over and over, without the base getting all nasty and poor. This is the first time Ive replanted it from scratch since starting the previous scape a few months ago.


Thanks Burr.......And how about the L. Aromatic Mini? Do you mow that too? Or top and replant. I ask because I have to tame mine, it gets out of control fast.

And while I am on the topic, how do treat your Lud. Sp. Red? Another one that's getting unruly.

As my questions might suggest, I think I am on to the next phase of this hobby, getting to understand how to best work with various plants. I think that is an area where you shine. And I hope you don't mind me asking and bugging you but I am sure others would benefit from hearing your thoughts as well.


----------



## Immortal1

My L. Aromatic Mini is also getting pretty unrully - Assumed I would top and replant.


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> All the research Ive seen from many different sources say a 2:1 Fe:Mn ratio is best.
> 
> The problem when they get too far out of proportion is one blocks the uptake of the other one.
> 
> Here's a good read on it, concise and simple. This is a fertilizer company but their "training center" articles are really good
> 
> Role of Manganese in Plant Culture | PRO-MIX
> 
> There are tons of scientific studies in agriculture on the subject if you google hard enough.
> 
> How important is the ratio? Im not sure. Csmb has a 3.5:1. I started adding Mn back when I was dosing very small amounts of csmb with a lot of extra Fe on top of it.
> 
> It did seem to improve a few things, but there was also a lot of other stuff going on so its hard to say really.
> 
> Tom Barr has dosed a 3:1:1 ratio of csmb:dtpa:gluconate for years, and countless other have copied him. That's almost 6:1. So I dont think it's extremely critical.
> 
> My personal opinion is that 2:1-3:1 is best. 5 or 6:1 is probably OK. But say a ratio of 10 or 20:1 would be asking for trouble.
> 
> Also ratios become more important dosing really low levels of everything. Not so much if you're larding it on
> 
> The custom blends I use all have a 2 or 2.5:1 ratio, for whatever that's worth.


Thanks for the info. Trying to find a source for Manganese without having to buy a 1000 years worth. Probably just will buy from Nilocg.


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Thanks for the info. Trying to find a source for Manganese without having to buy a 1000 years worth. Probably just will buy from Nilocg.


GLA has it - Manganese Sulfate MNSO4 | Green Leaf Aquariums

Here's a pound for under $10 shipped - Amazon.com: Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate - 32% Mn - 1 Pound: Industrial & Scientific


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Thanks Burr.......And how about the L. Aromatic Mini? Do you mow that too? Or top and replant. I ask because I have to tame mine, it gets out of control fast.
> 
> And while I am on the topic, how do treat your Lud. Sp. Red? Another one that's getting unruly.
> 
> As my questions might suggest, I think I am on to the next phase of this hobby, getting to understand how to best work with various plants. I think that is an area where you shine. And I hope you don't mind me asking and bugging you but I am sure others would benefit from hearing your thoughts as well.


Aromatica can be done either way. If you want it to be in a very structured shape you just about have to replant tops. It does well mowed down but then it grows out sorta wild and unruly. That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a different look.

Another thing is to get real precise replanting the tops, notice every stem leans a certain way. Most are not straight. So decide which way you want the stems leaning and plant them all in the same direction.

Had a lady friend over one night back when I was working on the last scape. It was maybe our 3rd or 4th time seeing each other. She'd been studying the aquarium very closely for a few minutes (always a good sign!) then she pointed to the aromatica group and said "why is this one pointed that way and all the rest pointing the other way"?? 

She was right, there was one stem leaning opposite all the rest and I hadnt even noticed it. I was like "Damn girl, good eye!!"

Luudwigia red works the same way. You can mow it down and it'll come right back and get thicker in the process. This is definitely the easiest way - if you've nailed the footprint the first time and dont want to move the group much.

You can plug a few tops in among the stumps to fill in places. But the thing about mowing it down is you'll have a lot of good tops to do something with. Far too good to toss so you'll need to sell them or do a raok or something.

You can mow a group two maybe three times before it's time to replant the tops and start it over. The bottoms stay basically healthy, but what happens is areal roots build up, combined with more and more stems becomes a big dense stagnant wad of biomass.

It's not so bad if you've been mowing it down to an inch or two, but if you're leaving six or eight inch bottoms it gets to be way too much thickness down there.


----------



## AutumnSun

Truly gorgeous tank. What grade/grit of blasting sand did you use for your substrate?


----------



## Igor95

@burr740, a little off topic, but have you ever encountered cyano? If so, how did you treat it?


----------



## LiQuiD SmoKe

burr740 said:


> All the research Ive seen from many different sources say a 2:1 Fe:Mn ratio is best.


Tank is breathtaking Burr! Im in the process of setting up my 125 gallon at 6ft. Would your light be a good one to consider? Im having trouble deciding on what to do.

Your substrate is pristine looking. I have always had issues with root feeding plants like crypts and swords with sand. I know you dont have any of these plants, but to you add root tabs at all? Looks like most are water column feeders if Im not mistaken.

Last question. What brand of black diamond blasting sand did you use? Does it normally have those specs of red in it? Thanks for any and all help!! :grin2::grin2:


----------



## burr740

AutumnSun said:


> Truly gorgeous tank. What grade/grit of blasting sand did you use for your substrate?


Thanks. Its 20/40 med grit. I'd try the course version but my local Tractor Supply only ever has the fine and medium



Igor95 said:


> @*burr740*, a little off topic, but have you ever encountered cyano? If so, how did you treat it?


Never had a huge problem with it but Ive had some here and there. Usually when a tank is in its first few months. A direct spray of peroxide is very effective at killing it. But then it comes right back until the root cause is fixed.

Manually remove whatever you can. If its on the substrate you can siphon it up using just the tubing from a regular gravel vac, take the big pipe off and use the 3/8" tubing.

Turn the flow off and spray it with peroxide. Let it sit for 20-30 minutes and turn the flow back on. May need to do it every day for a few days. 

Im not sure what causes it exactly. Thats just what I do and it usually goes away



LiQuiD SmoKe said:


> Tank is breathtaking Burr! Im in the process of setting up my 125 gallon at 6ft. Would your light be a good one to consider? Im having trouble deciding on what to do.
> 
> Your substrate is pristine looking. I have always had issues with root feeding plants like crypts and swords with sand. I know you dont have any of these plants, but to you add root tabs at all? Looks like most are water column feeders if Im not mistaken.
> 
> Last question. What brand of black diamond blasting sand did you use? Does it normally have those specs of red in it? Thanks for any and all help!! :grin2::grin2:


Thanks!

This light is 48" long, not sure it'd be good on a 6' tank unless you want really low light on the ends.

You might look into sb reef lights, box type leds. There are some Chinese knock off versions that apparently work just as well. Ive never tried any of them, just from reading others.

I do use Osmocote+ sparingly. Single balls around some things, just put a few under the lagenandras.

Here's a thread with some swords and crypts in sand, both with and without O+ 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html

Swords grew faster is about the only difference.

Yeah there's some red/brown specs in the bdbs, cant really see it except in close up shots. 

'Black diamond' is the brand name, blasting sand is what it is. Tractor Supply carries it. There's another brand called Black Beauty though Im not sure where to get it.


----------



## ILikeRice

Igor95 said:


> @burr740, a little off topic, but have you ever encountered cyano? If so, how did you treat it?


I used this and havent seen it since..Dosed twice with increased O2 and 20-30% water change after 2nd dose period ended.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QSK31M/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## AutumnSun

burr740 said:


> Thanks. Its 20/40 med grit. I'd try the course version but my local Tractor Supply only ever has the fine and medium
> 
> 
> 'Black diamond' is the brand name, blasting sand is what it is. Tractor Supply carries it. There's another brand called Black Beauty though Im not sure where to get it.


Thanks for answering my question. For LiQuiD SmoKe, I'm actually looking at buying the sand on Amazon and they have the Black Beauty there. With free/Prime shipping.


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## Ben Belton

On my phone so I'm not sure this will work but I am thinking congratulations are in order.


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## ipkiss

Indeed. That 1st place tank looks mighty familiar! Burr, you have someone copying your designs! I suggest you stop sharing your pics right now! 

 Congrats!


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## LRJ

Congratulations, man!! Stunning entry and well deserved 1st place in a competitive field this year. Your work and contributions to this hobby are a huge inspiration.


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## Greggz

Wow Burr you did it!

I am really happy for you, and it is certainly well deserved. 

I know how much time and effort went into that scape, which must make it that much more rewarding.

Your journals certainly have inspired me and I'm sure many more on this board. 

P.S. Does this mean we should now refer to you as Mr. Burr? Dr. Burr? Your Burrness?:grin2::grin2:

We gotta come up with something fitting.


----------



## OreoP

Congratulations burr!!

Your work is a true inspiration for all of us in this hobby. Might I also add that I along with many other TPT members have bragging rights to having some of your cuttings/trimmings in our tank.

Again, congratulations and well deserved!!


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## ipkiss

Greggz said:


> Wow Burr you did it!
> 
> 
> P.S. Does this mean we should now refer to you as Mr. Burr? Dr. Burr? Your Burrness?:grin2::grin2:
> 
> We gotta come up with something fitting.





OreoP said:


> Congratulations burr!!
> 
> Might I also add that I along with many other TPT members have bragging rights to having some of your cuttings/trimmings in our tank.



Indeed. Journal posts from now on will sound like this.. 

Why yes, kind sir. You would be right in recognizing that that persicaria came straight from the blue ribbon tank of his Burrness.


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## Phil Edwards

Congrats Burrito! Time to repeat it this coming year. 

Oh, and I got my old account back.


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## burr740

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it!



Greggz said:


> P.S. Does this mean we should now refer to you as Mr. Burr? Dr. Burr? Your Burrness?:grin2::grin2:
> 
> We gotta come up with something fitting.


Well my friends call me Joe but I dont really care....just as long as you're calling me. 



ipkiss said:


> Indeed. Journal posts from now on will sound like this..
> 
> Why yes, kind sir. You would be right in recognizing that that persicaria came straight from the blue ribbon tank of his Burrness.


Hey maybe I can double up prices now for these award winning plants!



Phil Edwards said:


> Congrats Burrito! Time to repeat it this coming year.
> 
> Oh, and I got my old account back.


Thanks man. Definitely gonna try to work harder for next year. Glad you got your account sorted, now post more!


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## burr740

There's a whole list of things I think could be better / wish I'd done differently, but Im pretty happy nonetheless. There were some good entries this year, which I think bodes well for the future

Here's some higher res pics



















My own critique:
Needs a more powerful street, and better front to back depth
Curtain plants in both front corners would help
And I dont like the color rendition from the light, it's too cool or something.

One judges comment
"I feel like I am contradicting myself a bit in my comments. Where several entries have to many plants in their tanks, I feel this one is a bit too empty. However, the plants look good, the groups show clear variations in contrast and height and it is a really nice tank to llok at. Maybe just a bit more time will grow the groups a bit bigger and take away the empty feeling. All plants are very well placed, but please replace the red Persicaria sao Paulo with a green plant" ~Marco Aukes

He's spot on with the empty comment. I always felt like it was missing something but couldnt quite put my finger on it. That's what it is.

Its funny, 3 days after the final pics it was water change day. Everything had grown an inch or whatever. I was like damn that looks good, much better than the other day. So that's something I'll keep in mind for next time.


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## burr740

1: Myriophyllum guyana, 2: Acmella repens, 3: Isoetes lacustris, 4:Ludwigia sp. red, 5: Didiplis diandra, 6: Pogosteman helferi 'red', 7: Hydrothrix gardneri, 8: Penthorum sedoides, 9: Barclaya longifolia red, 10: Hygrophila siamesis 53b, 11: Bacopa colorata, 12: Oldenlandia salzmannii, 13: Limnophila aromatica mini, 14: Persicaria sao paulo.----- Wall plants: Christmas moss, Bucephalandra brownie sp, Hydrocotyle leucocephala. ------ Hardscape: Fissidens fox on Manzinita branches


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## johnson18

Damn, Joe! Congrats on a job well done. Will we be seeing one of those living room busting tanks of the Dutch masters in your future? These high res photos are amazing. I’m fairly certain I️ said “wow” out loud multiple times. 


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## Triport

I love that Barclaya. Everywhere I have seen it for sale it is always out of stock.


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## sohankpatel

I saw the first place tank. I said to myself, "That looks rather familiar..." I entered as well, and someone I know placed third. 
I think I spend too much time here if I can recognize that Burr scaped the tank without any prior knowledge of his plans


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## ILikeRice

Such a beautiful tank, congrats :]


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## clownplanted

Congrats. That is quite a feat. I really had a feeling and was right that you would win. You really have a knack for this and am really glad you got 1st. Congrats again @burr740


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## vijay_06

Congrats on the well deserved recognition!!! You have been a true inspiration. Thanks for your contribution to this hobby.


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## Immortal1

Belated CONGRATS on the win! Guess I missed the announcement Saturday. Happy to say I have a few Burrific plants in my tank


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## rhiro

Congrats Joe. Seeing you win put a smile on my face and I am really happy for you.


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## burr740

Thanks everyone^, I really appreciate it!

The other day I asked Bart Laurens on Facebook if he had any advice on how to improve my tank. He was kind enough to oblige.

Good stuff, check it out - Uitslag internationale Aqua Scape contest AGA 2017 categorie Dutch Style. | Bart Laurens

Teaser :icon_eek:


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## LRJ

Wow, that is freakin' awesome, getting advice from Bart Laurens. Hearing about the planted tank community and discussions on Facebook is almost enough to make me setup an account...almost.


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## Greggz

LRJ said:


> Wow, that is freakin' awesome, getting advice from Bart Laurens. Hearing about the planted tank community and discussions on Facebook is almost enough to make me setup an account...almost.


LOL I thought I was the only one. No FB......don't want to be found.


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## LRJ

Greggz said:


> LOL I thought I was the only one. No FB......don't want to be found.


There are still some of us fighting the good fight :icon_smil


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## Maryland Guppy

LRJ said:


> Hearing about the planted tank community and discussions on Facebook is almost enough to make me setup an account...almost.





Greggz said:


> LOL I thought I was the only one. No FB......don't want to be found.





LRJ said:


> There are still some of us fighting the good fight :icon_smil


I joined FB under weird circumstances.
11 of us left a horse forum similar to this forum.
Too much daily bs and rif-raf always chiming in.
Moved to a Secret Group on FB.
Settings can be made tight so no one has found me in 3 years so far.


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## burr740

LRJ said:


> There are still some of us fighting the good fight :icon_smil


I only signed up a couple years ago myself, for the sole purpose of joining a few planted tank groups. Dennis Wong and a couple other guys run a nice one with over 20K members. There's a few others as well. AGA has a pretty nice group page (dont have to be an AGA member to join their group).

Some good places to buy and sell plants too.

Other benefits, for example Bart Laurens and Fred van Wezel has a lot of stuff about their tank going back years. Its public too so anyone can see it (at least their tank stuff is public).

If you ever decide to pull the trigger shoot me a mssg and I'll link some of that stuff. Greggz or anyone else


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## Triport

What is the group called that Dennis Wong runs? The few aquatic plant keeping groups I belong to are pretty slow. And the fish keeping ones are hit or miss. The specific family groups (Corydoras, Characins, etc.) are pretty good but the general fish groups are often full of people raging about Bettas kept in anything less than 50 gallon aquariums and other such nonsense.


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## burr740

Triport said:


> What is the group called that Dennis Wong runs?


High-Tech Planted Tanks

You may also want to try Aquascaping the World, another big group. 

Planted Aquariums has 11K

Couple others that are small but OK are Waterforest Aquatics and The Aquascapers Collective

There's also a "Low-Tech Planted Tanks" group (if I got the name right) that's really big and I would assume very active. Im not a member of that one though


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## burr740

OK so Vin gave some thoughts on Bart's analysis and diagram of the tank in my journal on barr report. Assuming a lot of folks here dont read over there, I think it's a good discussion so Im posting it here along with what I think it all means too. Thoughts are welcome



Pikez said:


> Summarizing things for my own benefit here...
> 
> 1. He liked the positioning or leaf shape...of the Persicaria, Barclaya, and Isoetes. ??
> 2. But the Isoetes needs to move to the blue X. I got that.
> 3. The big red Xs. The one on the left over the Acmella. That's good due to visual pay off?
> 4. The big red X that focuses the eye on the Bacopa Colorata - good because it directs the eyes to a proper pay off? Or do the big Xs reinforce symmetry? If so, I don't seem to be bothered by it.
> 5. The two circles that look like Mickey Mouse ears to the top left and right of the Didiplis bush...empty space that needs filling or reinforces the geometric symmetry of Didiplis?
> 6. Hydrothrix and Didiplis leaves too similar?
> 7. The two triangular mounds in the front...good or reinforces the symmetry?
> 8. If you'd put a curtain plant to the left of the Mini Myrio, this would have, I guess, been even more symmetrical.
> 
> After Bart pointed it out, I went, 'Well, duh, of course!' but I would not have spotted most of this by myself. But I recall you and I discussing the centeredness of the Didiplis bush and if I recall you moved it to the left a bit so there was some space between it and the Hygro 53B.


The way I interpreted it:










1/2. Yes
3/4. I think the Xs are somewhat incidental and do not indicate anything themselves. It's more or less just the two planes of the triangles coming together. The significance of the triangles is to show how symmetrically similar both "halves" of the tank are. The combination of the groups involved both form triangles which originate from the same general area in each half, and flow in the same general direction.
5. More symmetry imo. Two spots of the background exposed approximately equal in size and shape in both "halves" of the tank.
6. Yes, that, plus both groups are sorta dividing the tank, compounded by the fact they are roughly in line with each other.
7. Reinforces symmetry imo. Each half has a little triangle mound doing basically the same thing
8. Not sure if I would say that or not. The vertical boundaries of the tank sides are gonna be there regardless. I dont think having curtain plants on both sides would change anything. Although obviously it would be best if they contrasted with each other to some degree.

The symmetry thing never occurred to me either until I saw those red lines. Now it is painfully obvious. In fact, it looks so symmetrical to me now you'd think I had meticulously mapped it out that way. But it was entirely on accident. Probably because that's the only way I knew how to arrange the groups, and I just happened to do the same thing on both sides.


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## d33pVI

First off, congrats! It's great to see the field getting stronger in the AGA Dutch category, and you have a tank to certainly be very proud of.

I think the layout and symmetry of your tank is probably about as good as you can get given the dimensions of the tank. The length:height ratio of 2:1 naturally divides into two squares. In order to try and follow basic design principles (golden ratio, rule of thirds) in such a tank you have to have some groupings dead center in order to get the layout to divide into thirds. If you go and look at most of the classic Dutch tanks, the viewing pane is more of a 3:1 or even 5:1 length:height ratio, making it easier to get layouts that adhere more comfortably to those common design principles.


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## hivemindhermit

Design principles are principles, not laws - I for one would be very excited to see a less symmetrical rescape of this tank! I've been following this thread for a while and find it really interesting that while I definitely think the scape is pretty, I too have had the feeling that there's something not quite right, but I don't have enough experience to be able to pinpoint what I thought didn't work. And now that the symmetry has been pointed out I can't unsee it...! 

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## Dempsey

Congrats, Joe!! Did you change your photo period to prep for the pics?


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## burr740

Dempsey said:


> Congrats, Joe!! Did you change your photo period to prep for the pics?


Thanks man. Nope, didnt change anything


----------



## Deanna

burr740 said:


> Currently its .12 dtpa + .08 gluconate, 3x week.
> 
> As mentioned before, I believe gluc is worthless in my parameters. Next thing Im going back to all dtpa at .15 or so and see how that works. I'd do that now I just hate to dump these full mixes out. Plus, using this a couple more weeks will give a better reference point for how things change.


Where do you now stand on this?


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> High-Tech Planted Tanks
> 
> You may also want to try Aquascaping the World, another big group.
> 
> Planted Aquariums has 11K
> 
> Couple others that are small but OK are Waterforest Aquatics and The Aquascapers Collective
> 
> There's also a "Low-Tech Planted Tanks" group (if I got the name right) that's really big and I would assume very active. Im not a member of that one though


And don't forget the AGA Facebook page. It tends to be more general. :grin2:


----------



## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> And don't forget the AGA Facebook page. It tends to be more general. :grin2:


Definitely a good one, and you dont have to be a member of AGA to join.

I mentioned this in the earlier post is why I didnt include it in the second one.


----------



## burr740

Deanna said:


> Where do you now stand on this?


I'll summarize as best that I can. Anyone who doesnt care about a long rambling fert post, which may or may not make any sense, might as well skip on down to the pics. 

The custom blend from .12 ppm dtpa + .08 gluc was maybe 6 weeks ago.

Next thing I did was eliminate the gluc and go to .15 dtpa. After a couple of weeks, several things didnt like this at all. I suspect the gluc might have been doing more than I gave it credit for.

The next thing I did was increase B a little bit (to 40 ppb) and increased Zn a lot (60 ppb)

The logic for doing this was because a few species were showing specific problems in the second or third set of leaves. Mostly small holes. Not K deficiency looking holes. Holes like snails make. It probably is the snails, but they wouldnt be causing damage if the leaf wasnt already in a weakened state. 

So from internet research the most likely suspect seems to be Zn, or possibly B. I think Zn specifically because depending on where you look, it's listed as a "somewhat mobile" nutrient, or having a limited mobility.

My thinking is this might explain the issues with the second or third set of leaves. The plant can get more Zn from those leaves, but not from the ones on down like a truly mobile nutrient.

Speculation obviously.

Another thing I noticed about Zn is that Flourish Trace has an incredible amount of it. Dosed at .07 ppm Mn, it has like .169 ppm Zn. Which sounds crazy to me but there it is.

Well, since the custom blend uses all the same compounds as Flourish Trace and Comp, and I assume there must be a reason, it seemed logical that I might need to jack up the Zn.

So during the second week of the .15 dtpa blend, which originally had 27 ppb Zn, I made a separate solution of 30 ppb to add along with it - 57 ppb Zn per dose.

Only two things happened that I noticed. Ludwigia sp red got bigger. And AR mini variegated started putting out nice flat growth for the first time in months. Ive had 5 or 6 small ones just basically sitting there with twisted up leaves, not doing anything really. But in just a day or two they started putting out new growth all of a sudden.

That was two weeks ago. Some things had lost a little color since going down to .15 ppm Fe per dose. Not really deficient but I could tell they would like a bit more.

So the last two weeks have been .225 ppm dtpa, 3x per week, with B and Zn still at 40 and 60 ppb. Nearly everything seems to like it.

Here's some pics:

Pantanal in the 120. Most went to hell recently. The three tall ones are the only replanted tops that survived. The rest shriveled up and were cut down to stumps. The stumps are putting out nice new ones but this always happens so who knows










Wallichii in the 50, looking about as good as it ever does for me, maybe a little bigger now in diameter.










Little patch of Rotala macranda variegated looking....OK










Rotala macranda caterpillar never complains. Recently sold off like 20 something. 










AR mini in the 75. This is one of the few plants that doesnt seem to like the higher levels. You can see the leaves are starting to pucker a little bit, not flat and smooth like they're supposed to be. These were basically perfect until the last few days. Also having a little BBA outbreak on the substrate, look close you can see it. Not sure what thats about. It's in this tank only. No big deal I'll just vacuum it out, but it means something...










Another plant that doesnt seem like high micros specifically is hygro siamesis 53B. Like many hygros the lower leaves are prone to fauz K pinholes followed by melt. This symptom has gotten progressively worse the more I dose.

Everything else though has either gotten better or remained pretty good in the first place. This is reinforcing my theory that micros themselves have never been the problem. 

Obligatory FTS  Tank is an overgrown jumbled mess. Gonna start hashing out a new scape in the next week or two. Not much is gonna stay where it is.


----------



## Greggz

Burr great post. I've read it like 3 times now, as I try to digest it and see how any of it might relate to my tank.

And once again this shows just how much time, thought, and effort goes into your tank. Most people, me included, would be very happy with a lot less. You continue to push the boundaries to get the best out of each species. 

I think the trickiest part of what you are trying to do is pleasing ALL of the species at one time. As you have observed, making changes to please one species can sometimes result in issues with others. You really are walking a fine line there, and I commend you for your tenacity. I would have given up on some of them a long time ago.

I'm still dosing your version 5.15 at .15 Fe, and I have to tell you my tank has never been better. Now I can't attribute that all to the micro mix, but I do believe it is a strong contributing factor. I think I will stay steady with that level for another week or two, then slowly bump it up to see what effect it may have. 

And I wanted to add that I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks forward to updates like this, so thanks as always for sharing.


----------



## Deanna

@burr740 Thanks - excellent summary! I'll keep watching your journal.

Like you, about a year ago, I began crafting my own micros and did it in a similar fashion, but with different premises. I looked at Tropica, Flourish Comp and CSM+B, giving heaviest weighting to Tropica then Flourish and then used CSM+B more as a guide as to what not to exceed. 

However, I've always used Flourish Iron and was wondering if adding DTPA might help (despite a UVS), but couldn't find compelling support until I started watching your journal. So, you are now all DTPA and just at an increased dose? Do you intend to leave gluc out from now on?

I've been pleased with the following (although my tank is in an uproar right now because of a testing phase with lighting I'm going through):



> ........PPM 3x / week..........Accumulates (50% wc - plant uptake ignored)
> Fe (gluc)....0.04.............................0.2-.3
> B..............0.008..........................0.03-.06
> Cu............0.0012.......................0.004-.008
> Mn............0.02............................0.08-.15
> Mo............0.0008.......................0.003-.005
> Zn............0.004...........................0.02-.03


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## johnson18

Burr, I love these detailed summary posts on fertilizers. It makes me actually use my fairly thorough knowledge of plant growth & physiology in a way that is applied to my favorite hobby. None of my tanks are running on such a high level that I really have to think much about the finite details. Maybe I’ll have more time in a few years after I finish the BS(Dec 18) & Masters(probably 2 years) that I’ll be able to actually set up a high tech tank! For now I’ll just keep enjoying your journal & a few others! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## The Dude1

What kind of mosses are those?? Are they just growing on pieces of SS mesh attached to the glass with suction cups? They look incredible...


----------



## clownplanted

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*



The Dude1 said:


> What kind of mosses are those?? Are they just growing on pieces of SS mesh attached to the glass with suction cups? They look incredible...




Check page 30 of his journal. I know because I was going through it in getting an idea planting fissidens in the same kind of mesh he got. Really good detail on the process and hope he doesn’t mind me using his idea to grow some fissidens moss the same way. I was able to find the same black mesh he got at Michaels for $0.69 a sheet. 
I bought the last 7 black mesh sheets they had because I am sure I will use them in the future. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## clownplanted

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

@burr740 you should think of writing a book on all of this. You truly in my mind have revolutionized a planted tank with your journal and it really should be put in a book. I am not sure how many times but am sure at least 5 I have read through your entries for excellent details. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr great post. I've read it like 3 times now, as I try to digest it and see how any of it might relate to my tank.
> 
> And once again this shows just how much time, thought, and effort goes into your tank. Most people, me included, would be very happy with a lot less. You continue to push the boundaries to get the best out of each species.
> 
> I think the trickiest part of what you are trying to do is pleasing ALL of the species at one time. As you have observed, making changes to please one species can sometimes result in issues with others. You really are walking a fine line there, and I commend you for your tenacity. I would have given up on some of them a long time ago.
> 
> I'm still dosing your version 5.15 at .15 Fe, and I have to tell you my tank has never been better. Now I can't attribute that all to the micro mix, but I do believe it is a strong contributing factor. I think I will stay steady with that level for another week or two, then slowly bump it up to see what effect it may have.
> 
> And I wanted to add that I'm sure I'm not the only one who looks forward to updates like this, so thanks as always for sharing.


Thanks man. Your v5.15 is the current "standard" that I give to most people who ask for it. Seems to work well for everyone so far. I think it's a good all around blend, at least to start with. Obviously some folks might need more or less.

The reason I believe mine didnt like it much this go around is because of the sudden drop in everything. I was coming off a .2 dose of the gluc blend. And I only did it for less than a week before deciding to try more Zn. 

Knee jerk reaction on my part really. If I'd stuck it out the plants probably would have adjusted. But nah....that would be too easy! 

The reality is that Im still fascinated over being able to dose so much now, that Im curious to see just how can still be "good"



Deanna said:


> @*burr740* Thanks - excellent summary! I'll keep watching your journal.
> 
> Like you, about a year ago, I began crafting my own micros and did it in a similar fashion, but with different premises. I looked at Tropica, Flourish Comp and CSM+B, giving heaviest weighting to Tropica then Flourish and then used CSM+B more as a guide as to what not to exceed.
> 
> However, I've always used Flourish Iron and was wondering if adding DTPA might help (despite a UVS), but couldn't find compelling support until I started watching your journal. So, you are now all DTPA and just at an increased dose? Do you intend to leave gluc out from now on?
> 
> I've been pleased with the following (although my tank is in an uproar right now because of a testing phase with lighting I'm going through):


Gluc is best at low PH levels and softer water. By best I mean it sticks around longer. The higher the PH, and to a lesser degree KH, the stronger chelate is needed.

On paper gluc shouldnt offer a whole lot of benefit to my set ups. But the plants did seem to be getting it, at least some of it.

DTPA should be the best type for me, again on paper. So Im gonna stick with just that for a while and see how everything goes.



johnson18 said:


> Burr, I love these detailed summary posts on fertilizers. It makes me actually use my fairly thorough knowledge of plant growth & physiology in a way that is applied to my favorite hobby. None of my tanks are running on such a high level that I really have to think much about the finite details. Maybe I’ll have more time in a few years after I finish the BS(Dec 18) & Masters(probably 2 years) that I’ll be able to actually set up a high tech tank! For now I’ll just keep enjoying your journal & a few others!


Thanks man. I saw where you were studying plant biology or something like that. If you ever see something or know something that relates to what Im doing here, please feel free to shed light on the subject!



The Dude1 said:


> What kind of mosses are those?? Are they just growing on pieces of SS mesh attached to the glass with suction cups? They look incredible...


On the right is Fissidens fox, to the left in back is China. Like Clownplanted said, I made some mini walls using the same concept as the main walls in the 120 - using plastic mesh and suction cups. 

It's a good way to grow out different mosses without taking up floor space. Works for Buces, Anubias or anything like that too.



clownplanted said:


> @*burr740* you should think of writing a book on all of this. You truly in my mind have revolutionized a planted tank with your journal and it really should be put in a book. I am not sure how many times but am sure at least 5 I have read through your entries for excellent details.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL my head hurts just thinking about a book! But Im very glad my exploits have been useful to others. Thanks for the compliment.


----------



## burr740

Topped the 3 tall Pantanals and stuck them down in the group. We'll see how they look in a few days. If Im ever going to scape with this plant - it HAS to be able to take a frequent replanting. It is literally an inch-a-day plant when its happy.










Fissidens fox on the log is an inch thick now. I still havent trimmed it...


----------



## saiko

oh man!! I was seeing your tank pictures all over facebook, but never knew it was yours.

Great job, and congratulations again!!


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## johnson18

Joe, I’ve got a question about lights! I’m thinking about adding a second T5HO fixture to my 55, which would give me 4 54W bulbs. I currently run Giesemann AquaFlora & Midday. The last time I ran two fixtures I just ran two of each of my normal bulbs. I’m considering swapping things out this time around. My current guess is that the second fixture will only be on a portion of the photoperiod. 

If you had to chose only four bulbs to run, which would you use? 

I’ve looked through the specs for all of the bulbs you run. What I was thinking was two Middays, one Aquaflora, and either the ATI Purple Plus, Giesemann Super Purple, or the PowerVeg 633. 

Did you ever compare the PowerVeg 633 and the 660? The 660 seem to have more red in the 600-700nm range with less of the 700+ range, whereas the 633 has a nice big peak in the Far Red area. 

Any other suggestions of something other than the Giesemann Midday? 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Thanks @saiko



johnson18 said:


> Joe, I’ve got a question about lights! I’m thinking about adding a second T5HO fixture to my 55, which would give me 4 54W bulbs. I currently run Giesemann AquaFlora & Midday. The last time I ran two fixtures I just ran two of each of my normal bulbs. I’m considering swapping things out this time around. My current guess is that the second fixture will only be on a portion of the photoperiod.
> 
> If you had to chose only four bulbs to run, which would you use?
> 
> I’ve looked through the specs for all of the bulbs you run. What I was thinking was two Middays, one Aquaflora, and either the ATI Purple Plus, Giesemann Super Purple, or the PowerVeg 633.
> 
> Did you ever compare the PowerVeg 633 and the 660? The 660 seem to have more red in the 600-700nm range with less of the 700+ range, whereas the 633 has a nice big peak in the Far Red area.
> 
> Any other suggestions of something other than the Giesemann Midday?


My favorite 4 bulb combo on the 75 was one each; 6500K, 3000K, actinic blue, Truelumen flora.

In your case I'd go with the Power veg instead of the 3000K because it has a lot less PAR. 

I havent tried the 660 but the 633 is extremely red, so you'll definitely need something cool like an ati purple or actinic to balance it out.

For the other two slots I'd probably just go with one 6500K type and a flora of some kind. At least to start with. Then depending on how red that is, if its too much you may want both 6500Ks instead


----------



## Greggz

Alright Burr it's been long enough. It's time for an update on your tank.

I've been very curious to see where you are going next? I know you must be working on something, and am looking forward to seeing what it is.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Alright Burr it's been long enough. It's time for an update on your tank.
> 
> I've been very curious to see where you are going next? I know you must be working on something, and am looking forward to seeing what it is.


Well there's not much to report really. The scape is in limbo while I figure out where to put everything. Still test driving a few species and making sure the Pantanal is gonna hold up to frequent cutting.










The big green plant is a Nuphar lutea that Vin gave me. Not sure where to put it yet but it's probably not staying right there, at least without something else in front if it.

Pantanal is doing really well. Didnt lose a single stem from replanting tops maybe 12 days ago. 

Replanted these two a couple days ago. They'd hit the surface already, just stuck them down here for the time being.










^Mini Myrio group is sorta ragged atm. Sold quite a few lately which were just randomly plucked out. Gonna redo it pretty soon, maybe somewhere else.

Here's the tallest Pantanals from the FTS above










Baby Kimberly growing out in front, temporarily. Sold all the mature red downoi that was right here, have some babies growing out in the 75. 










Myriophillum red stem trying out for the varsity team. It is a beast of a weed but damn it looks good when happy. Wouldnt be too hard to manage here in the front corner. A big group in back somewhere...forget about it. It grows way too fast and the back bottom is too hard to reach for that.


----------



## Triport

Love that Myriophyllum but then I love anything with feathery red/orange foliage. I am obsessed with my Rotala wallichii at the moment and lusting over Rotala Vietnam (which was sadly out of stock when I placed my last order). 

Just got some Ludwigia 'Pantanal' but I am not really sure how it is going to do. Out of all the tc plants I just bought it was on the dodgy side without a strong root mass. So we'll see if it takes. If it looks a fraction as nice as yours I will be happy.


----------



## Greggz

Burr I posted this on TBR, but thought I would here as well. First of all, it's good to see an update. Pikez said this before, but you just grow better looking plants. I've posted pics of my Pantanal lately, and for me it's doing very well and getting better (that's by my admittedly somewhat lower standards). Buy yours are in a whole new league.

Question for you though. At one point you were not having much luck with it. The stems I have now you sent me awhile back, and you mentioned they were a little scraggly, and let's see what I do with them. What do you think has brought out the best in them for you?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Question for you though. At one point you were not having much luck with it. The stems I have now you sent me awhile back, and you mentioned they were a little scraggly, and let's see what I do with them. What do you think has brought out the best in them for you?


Dude Ive been trying to grow Pantanal for 2 years at least, usually wind up killing it. It's shown occasional flashes of brilliance but it never lasted. And up until recently Ive never been able to replant tops and have them do well. New shoots will form from stumps and do nice until its time to trim, then they usually shrivel up and die.

Only the for past couple of months at much higher dosing has it really started to do well. Im still not comfortable replanting it. Thats what Im trying to see now if it holds up well enough to use in the scape.

The trim 2 weeks ago is the first time to not lose a single stem. This seems to confirm my theory that the problem all along has been a chronic shortage of something. Should know for sure after a couple more replants.

Speaking of which, did a fresh one this morning -











And made a few other changes. Its hard for me to form an exact plan or say, layout a diagram. I have to actually apply some ideas then step back and look for a few days, see what works and what doesnt. Then get more ideas...rinse and repeat.

Before -










After -










Bacopa colorata is probably going in place of the Didiplis. Something green in the back right. Hyptis lorentziana is in wait and see mode.

Acmella is probably staying put, expanded more to the right. Will reroute the Lud red some. Thinking about Erio lineare in place of the Myrio. Find something for the middle where the Kimberlys are, etc, etc...


----------



## Greggz

I like the after better.....but really I've never seen a picture of your tank I didn't like.

Interesting on the Pantanal. I've had no problem topping it, but still trying to get the full color like yours. We'll see if the higher micros continue having an effect.

And the Kimberly in the front......are you going to try using that for a foreground plant? The heads just get so huge over time. I really like the Myrio Red. Have you found it to be fussy? Looks like something I will have to try sometime.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> I like the after better.....but really I've never seen a picture of your tank I didn't like.


Thanks, but I dont consider either version "scaped" right now. Many things are just there, waiting to go somewhere else, not shaped up or anything.

But yeah I always think a tank full of healthy colorful plants looks nice, "scaped" or otherwise. 



Greggz said:


> And the Kimberly in the front......are you going to try using that for a foreground plant? The heads just get so huge over time.


Probably not...simply because it doesnt offer the best contrast to the Pantanal. I just needed the room in the back tanks.

It could definitely work though. If you let it grow say 8-10 inches, shorten it down to 3 it'll never get that huge diameter. Most things can be managed that way. Its why I was telling you to keep the fast growing weeds in the lower half of the tank instead of the top half. Its much less work. 

*Not that Kimberly is a fast grower, just speaking in general.



Greggz said:


> I really like the Myrio Red. Have you found it to be fussy? Looks like something I will have to try sometime.


Yeah thats a cool plant, pretty easy too, slow-ish grower. It went through a rough patch when I first started the custom micros at really low doses. Otherwise its been drama free


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> But yeah I always think a tank full of healthy colorful plants looks nice, "scaped" or otherwise.


Boy I am glad to hear you say that. "Otherwise" just described my tank!:smile2:



burr740 said:


> If you let it grow say 8-10 inches, shorten it down to 3 it'll never get that huge diameter. Most things can be managed that way. Its why I was telling you to keep the fast growing weeds in the lower half of the tank instead of the top half. Its much less work.


Well then I am looking forward to seeing what you do with that Sunset, and seeing if you can tame it. It's truly a weed.


----------



## GMYukonon24s

*Co2 reactor*

You guys make this look to easy.


----------



## burr740

GMYukonon24s said:


> You guys make this look to easy.


Heh heh. You know everyone likes to talk about ferts and light and co2, myself included - especially when there's a problem. But the thing that is most overlooked and under emphasized is how important it is to keep up with the basic grunt work like cleaning and pruning, picking bad leaves off, keeping overall biomass in check, and just striving for cleanliness in general. Doing all that will solve and prevent a multitude of problems. 

Gave the back tanks a big hack the other day. Here's some plant pics

Rotala macranda variegated is growing alright. This all came from two stumps a couple months ago. It's sorta pouting I think, not as happy as it could be. See how the leaves are curled around the edges. But at least it's not stunted.



















Rotala wallichii










Hygrophila sunset I got from @Greggz a couple weeks ago. Sorta just sat there for a few days but it's starting to grow now. Im hoping for a bit more color

Top right is Rotala macranda caterpillar, pretty easy as far as macs go











Clinopodium brownei I got from Vin. Nice plant so far, easy slow grower. Flowgrow site lists it as fast but that's not been the case so far










Mermaid weed younglings, baby Limnophila belem to the left










AR mini variegated is slowly getting better with higher micro dosing. It went through a horrible few months when I first started the custom blend at really low levels. I'd love to use it in the 120 down in front where the Pogo kimberly is. It needs to get a little better first


----------



## rhiro

Thanks burr. Always enjoy the updates.


----------



## MaroMan

Your Tanks and Plants look amazing! Like rhiro stated, your updates and pictures are always inspiring! Thanks!


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## burr740

Thanks guys^

Couple shrimp pics taken with phone

There's probably 30-40 fire red/sakuras in the 50, culls go in the 75. I should really do a better job feeding them so they breed more.

Ive added maybe 6 really nice ones to the 120, one or two at a time. Was hoping to start a population but I never see them again. You'd think they would thrive with all that moss.

Maybe the Amanos are eating them?










See the the babies


----------



## Axelrodi202

In a large tank it will take very long for shrimps to find each other and mate unless you start with a lot (~100).


----------



## klibs

love those plants on top of the tank


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## DennisSingh

klibs said:


> Dude Ive been trying to grow Pantanal for 2 years at least, usually wind up killing it. It's shown occasional flashes of brilliance but it never lasted. And up until recently Ive never been able to replant tops and have them do well. New shoots will form from stumps and do nice until its time to trim, then they usually shrivel up and die.


Burr, what is the secret behind getting pantanal red?
I can do this too, get glimpses of glory red, but it always just fades out
I can grow the plant to the top, but not get extreme red, like happy, pikez, barr, aj, etc.


----------



## ThatFishThough

Hey burr, I've got a question for you;

You always talk about chopping off the tops of plants and then having them regrow, but I was always told that if you cut a plant, it'll stop growing from that point. I'm assuming you're correct, so, is it okay to lop my Anarchis in half? I have tons of the stuff and it grows like crazy in my low-tech tanks, but I'd like to be able to use it in other tanks. I just want it to keep growing, too.

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, your tanks. Never seen anything so gorgeous in my entire (short, 2-year) aquarium 'career'. It's my inspiration! I only have small low-tech tanks (20G at most) and some of my plants are struggling, but this keeps me going when my tanks get rough. Wish I could have a tank like that. I have no clue what I'm doing, though. I'm a "buy it and hope it doesn't die" person. All of the praises to you!


----------



## king kong

Roll Tide!


----------



## Brackon

ThatFishThough said:


> Hey burr, I've got a question for you;
> 
> You always talk about chopping off the tops of plants and then having them regrow, but I was always told that if you cut a plant, it'll stop growing from that point. I'm assuming you're correct, so, is it okay to lop my Anarchis in half? I have tons of the stuff and it grows like crazy in my low-tech tanks, but I'd like to be able to use it in other tanks. I just want it to keep growing, too.
> 
> LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, your tanks. Never seen anything so gorgeous in my entire (short, 2-year) aquarium 'career'. It's my inspiration! I only have small low-tech tanks (20G at most) and some of my plants are struggling, but this keeps me going when my tanks get rough. Wish I could have a tank like that. I have no clue what I'm doing, though. I'm a "buy it and hope it doesn't die" person. All of the praises to you!


Not to replace burr as he will have more knowledge but yeah the plant stops growing and instead will start new shoots further down the plant but this only really works with stem plants so you should be okay doing this with anacharis/elodea. I do this with pogostemon stellatus when I need more stems as you can replant all the tops and they will reroot within a week or so and then just leaving a stump will make 2-4 new stems to come up and then I can pluck them off once they are large enough to pant by themselves.


----------



## burr740

Happy Christmas Folks! 



klibs said:


> love those plants on top of the tank


Hydrocotyle tripartita japan. Just gave it all a big whack, it's a lot more there than what it looks like

Before










After. 










Mostly just stems and roots left, gonna be interesting to see how it comes back 

Looks cruddy as hell right now





















StrungOut said:


> Burr, what is the secret behind getting pantanal red?
> I can do this too, get glimpses of glory red, but it always just fades out
> I can grow the plant to the top, but not get extreme red, like happy, pikez, barr, aj, etc.


No idea man, that's just what color it gets when it grows well for me. Maybe a lot of red spectrum helps?



ThatFishThough said:


> Hey burr, I've got a question for you;
> 
> You always talk about chopping off the tops of plants and then having them regrow, but I was always told that if you cut a plant, it'll stop growing from that point. I'm assuming you're correct, so, is it okay to lop my Anarchis in half? I have tons of the stuff and it grows like crazy in my low-tech tanks, but I'd like to be able to use it in other tanks. I just want it to keep growing, too.
> 
> LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, your tanks. Never seen anything so gorgeous in my entire (short, 2-year) aquarium 'career'. It's my inspiration! I only have small low-tech tanks (20G at most) and some of my plants are struggling, but this keeps me going when my tanks get rough. Wish I could have a tank like that. I have no clue what I'm doing, though. I'm a "buy it and hope it doesn't die" person. All of the praises to you!


Thanks!

Yes any stem will stop growing at the cut point. Usually the bottoms get tossed and the nice top replanted. But if you leave the bottom, new shoots will form which can soon be replanted. 

If you have plenty of a particular plant just replant the tops. If you're trying to make more of something then do both

That is just generally speaking. Some species, due to shape and size and how it grows, will do better mowed down leaving alll the bottoms. But this is more a matter of trimming technique based on how you want a group to look. 



king kong said:


> Roll Tide!


We'll see! 


Obligatory FTS. Today's word is biomass, as in too much of it. Trim is long overdue!

Shipping most of the L red, Penthorum, mini limno and Erios out Tues. Big rescape coming next week


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Obligatory FTS. Today's word is biomass, as in too much of it. Trim is long overdue!


Interesting you point out biomass. I have been paying much more attention to that lately. 

Keeping the biomass in check and leaving a little room between species seems to make for a healthier cleaner tank. 

I look back at some of the things I discussed with you early on about trimming and caring for individual species, and I realize it took a long time for me to figure much of that out. I remember I asked you about some Hygro Cory compact I had got from you that were about the size of softballs. You explained how you split and care for yours and it sure helped. At the time I just really didn't know what I was doing (and am still just scratching the surface!). You learn that sometimes just beating the heck out of something is better in the long run. 

I'm sure posts on treatment of individual plants could be very helpful to many here. Turns out there is lot more to do once you figure out how to grow plants, as then they need much more care. I'll try to get to that myself sometime.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I'm jealous of your shrimp keeping abilities.


----------



## DennisSingh

I'm jealous u won 1st Dutch. I will slander n talk s gossip until I realize u actually won! ?


----------



## Phil Edwards

It's partly my fault StrungOut. Sorry about that! We all need someone to slander and give crap to.
@ThatFishThough To answer your question further, plants have special bunches of stem cells; not STEM, stem, but cells that can grow into different types of tissues as needed. Those are points along the stem and roots where new tissues grow. When the tops are cut, certain hormones no longer reach the axial (in between the leaf and stem) meristem tissue so they're stimulated to grow new stems and/or leaves. It can be a healthy and good thing to cut the tops of stem species that may not be growing well and let new stems grow. That's also done, as burr said, to make bunches of stems grow thicker as more than one new stem usually grows. These points are also where Alternanthera species famously grow their aerial roots we see. /end botany lesson for the day.


----------



## DennisSingh

Phil Edwards said:


> It's partly my fault StrungOut. Sorry about that! We all need someone to slander and give crap to.
> 
> @ThatFishThough To answer your question further, plants have special bunches of stem cells; not STEM, stem, but cells that can grow into different types of tissues as needed. Those are points along the stem and roots where new tissues grow. When the tops are cut, certain hormones no longer reach the axial (in between the leaf and stem) meristem tissue so they're stimulated to grow new stems and/or leaves. It can be a healthy and good thing to cut the tops of stem species that may not be growing well and let new stems grow. That's also done, as burr said, to make bunches of stems grow thicker as more than one new stem usually grows. These points are also where Alternanthera species famously grow their aerial roots we see. /end botany lesson for the day.


Sorry Phil. I could not like ur post. I can't even see swap n shop due to phone only access. 

Regardless, compliment to burr, your grow skills are pretty solid man. One day may u go Ada and ro water and grow mass Dutch erio, tonina, syn tank. Or not...whichever, I like how everything comes together to the moss walls to the pennywort? Above. To all the stems and reds. Congrats.

Phil not too hard please. I'm at my brink of hysteria mixed with insanity along with psychotic humor...but u can replace humor with other words which will get me in trouble. It's ok the net you can probably say anything


----------



## happi

can we get close up pic of this part of the plant Burr?


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## burr740

happi said:


> can we get close up pic of this part of the plant Burr?


From just now











The two in front were topped and replanted a few days ago. Look to the left, behind those two to see the bottoms of the tallest ones. It's pretty good all the way to the ground, what do you think?










In other news got my ribbon from AGA today. Its pretty nice, well made and big.

Woo hoo!










Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> I'm jealous of your shrimp keeping abilities.


Man Im a total newb when it comes to shrimp, know little to nothing about them and dont do anything special. Somehow they just live.

Just these past couple of weks Ive started feeding the fire reds better in the 50. They breed when I feed them and stop if I dont. Hoping to create a larger population and get them going in the 120.


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## iamaloner

Can someone ID this plant for me please?









Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## burr740

iamaloner said:


> Can someone ID this plant for me please?
> 
> Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


Acmella repens in back. The smaller bright green in front is Oldenlandia salzmannii


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## happi

Burr, they are not looking too bad, i just notice some issues on the end of the tip, where some leaves are bending downward, seems like longer internodes as well, if one use quite rich dose of Urea/NH4 i have noticed increase in growth and longer internodes. the good thing is i did not notice much issue with lower leaves falling, twisted, holes etc in them, which is usually very common in most people plants i have witnessed. however, i slightly notice yellowing on some leaves on some plants, this could mean plant have issue obtaining N or having issue converting N to usable form, this is where NH4/Urea comes handy, NH4 can skip the need for Mo and plant can use it directly, Urea somewhat similar, long as there is decent amount of Ni present in your water. i hope you don't get me wrong if i have said anything too negative, you are more than welcome to throw anything at me, so i could improve further. i would love to see more very close up pics, from top to bottom of the plant, if you maintained the good growth from top to bottom, you my friend will be the winner. but overall, your experiment been a good demonstration. looking forward to see more, i would love to help if you want me to participate in anything.


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> In other news got my ribbon from AGA today. Its pretty nice, well made and big.
> 
> Woo hoo!


Notwithstanding the excellent information in the rest of this post, I just have to once again offer my sincere congratulations on this award.

You should be very proud, and I am glad you were recognized for what I know was a great deal of effort.

It really is a significant achievement, and is an inspiration to many.


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## fablau

Yes, congratulations for the ribbon my friend, you really deserve it!


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## fablau

happi said:


> Burr, they are not looking too bad, i just notice some issues on the end of the tip, where some leaves are bending downward, seems like longer internodes as well, if one use quite rich dose of Urea/NH4 i have noticed increase in growth and longer internodes. the good thing is i did not notice much issue with lower leaves falling, twisted, holes etc in them, which is usually very common in most people plants i have witnessed. however, i slightly notice yellowing on some leaves on some plants, this could mean plant have issue obtaining N or having issue converting N to usable form, this is where NH4/Urea comes handy, NH4 can skip the need for Mo and plant can use it directly, Urea somewhat similar, long as there is decent amount of Ni present in your water. i hope you don't get me wrong if i have said anything too negative, you are more than welcome to throw anything at me, so i could improve further. i would love to see more very close up pics, from top to bottom of the plant, if you maintained the good growth from top to bottom, you my friend will be the winner. but overall, your experiment been a good demonstration. looking forward to see more, i would love to help if you want me to participate in anything.




Happi, do you dose NiSO4.6H2O ? If so, how much of it?


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## burr740

fablau said:


> Happi, do you dose NiSO4.6H2O ? If so, how much of it?


Mine just arrived today, gonna start with .5 ppb. I think it has very low potential for toxicity, gram for gram far less than Cu. So hopefully that should be both plenty and safe


Also I was just telling Vin about a very interesting thing that happened yesterday, in all 3 tanks

Ive been dosing a .2 Fe blend every day for about a week and a half. Yesterday was micro day, the 4th dose since last water change.

Since Im dosing micros every day I did not add urea to this latest mix. I kept it separate that way Im not double dosing on macro days (its in the macro solution)

So now on micro days I add micros from one bottle plus urea from another. Well today I forgot the urea. It was the first time in a long while without a daily dose.

About an hour after the lights came on I noticed the 120 was already pearling more than usual, a lot more. Then a coupe hours later it was like a rolling boil, way more than usual. All three tanks were doing it.

So... either the .2 micros have suddenly built up into a very positive thing, or the plants really liked not having the urea. Im leaning towards the latter, although it seems rather fast for such a reaction

Im going to keep dosing the urea and see if nickel makes any difference, if not then Im going to stop urea and see what happens.


----------



## happi

fablau said:


> Happi, do you dose NiSO4.6H2O ? If so, how much of it?


 i personally use anywhere from 0.000005-0.0001 ppm Ni.


----------



## iamaloner

Such a gorgeous plant. Acmella that is. Can't find it anywhere in Canada, looks like it's native to the southern usa. 

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk


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## Greggz

happi said:


> Burr, they are not looking too bad, i just notice some issues on the end of the tip, where some leaves are bending downward, seems like longer internodes as well, if one use quite rich dose of Urea/NH4 i have noticed increase in growth and longer internodes. the good thing is i did not notice much issue with lower leaves falling, twisted, holes etc in them, which is usually very common in most people plants i have witnessed. however, i slightly notice yellowing on some leaves on some plants, this could mean plant have issue obtaining N or having issue converting N to usable form, this is where NH4/Urea comes handy, NH4 can skip the need for Mo and plant can use it directly, Urea somewhat similar, long as there is decent amount of Ni present in your water. i hope you don't get me wrong if i have said anything too negative, you are more than welcome to throw anything at me, so i could improve further. i would love to see more very close up pics, from top to bottom of the plant, if you maintained the good growth from top to bottom, you my friend will be the winner. but overall, your experiment been a good demonstration. looking forward to see more, i would love to help if you want me to participate in anything.


Happi your post above brings to mind something I think about quite often. 

Let's say you meticulously focused solely on the needs of the Pantanal. You adjusted every single parameter (lighting/ferts/co2/GH/KH/substrate/etc. etc. etc.) so that the Pantanal was 100% absolutely the best it can possibly be in every single respect.

My question then would be what happens to the maybe 20 other species that are in that tank? Are they also equally 100% perfect? It's like when I see experiments with a single species in a small tank. I like following them and always find the results interesting. But what if you had 20 different species in 20 different small tanks. Would the recipe to get the absolute best out of each species be exactly the same? 

Let's take the Pikez kill tanks as an example. While trying to torture certain plants, the strange thing is that others thrive. Take one of those thriving plants to the Dutch tank, and sometimes it tanks in a hurry. And vice versa coming from the Dutch to the kill tanks. 

It seems to me the trick in a real world planted tank is walking that fine line trying to balance the individual needs of 20 or more species. Can it really be done? Can you get the 100% perfect best out of multiple species in a single tank?

Thoughts?


----------



## happi

Greggz said:


> Happi your post above brings to mind something I think about quite often.
> 
> Let's say you meticulously focused solely on the needs of the Pantanal. You adjusted every single parameter (lighting/ferts/co2/GH/KH/substrate/etc. etc. etc.) so that the Pantanal was 100% absolutely the best it can possibly be in every single respect.
> 
> My question then would be what happens to the maybe 20 other species that are in that tank? Are they also equally 100% perfect? It's like when I see experiments with a single species in a small tank. I like following them and always find the results interesting. But what if you had 20 different species in 20 different small tanks. Would the recipe to get the absolute best out of each species be exactly the same?
> 
> Let's take the Pikez kill tanks as an example. While trying to torture certain plants, the strange thing is that others thrive. Take one of those thriving plants to the Dutch tank, and sometimes it tanks in a hurry. And vice versa coming from the Dutch to the kill tanks.
> 
> It seems to me the trick in a real world planted tank is walking that fine line trying to balance the individual needs of 20 or more species. Can it really be done? Can you get the 100% perfect best out of multiple species in a single tank?
> 
> Thoughts?


yes i know exactly what you are talking about, if we could grow lets say 75% equally healthy vs other 15% decently healthy and 10% close to fair, that mean we are quite close to what plant really likes. i have witnessed some plant are quite hardy and they had very little affect on growth vs the other, take my own observation for example, LIMNOPHILA AROMATICA vs ludwigia pantanal, Aromatica grew great without loosing any leaf or any serious issue in both extremely high to very low nutrients, this plant was quite hardy and i dont recommend it for experimental purpose as i mention, its very hardy and wont tell you much about the experiments, pantanal on the other hand is very responsive to the change, bottom lower leaves falling, loss of lower leave colors etc, that mean something is missing or wrong, panantal grew best and bushier under NH4NO3 vs KNo3, it also grew great under urea but had little longer internodes, Monte carlo, same results occured as panantal, leaf size got smaller and smaller when KNO3 was the only source of N. from my own experiment what am saying is, you might get 50% good results on 50% plants while other suffers while just using KNO3, soon as you switch to NH4NO3, now you have 90%+ success, Urea again very high success with similar results as NH4NO3, there could be few Sp. that might respond differently to certain ratio or in other word slightly more of Boron, Mn, ZN etc, but once you have the correct or decent ratio, you are feeding all your plants correctly, lets say if one plant need 0.1 ppm B and other one only need 0.05 B and you add 0.15 ppm B, this will fill the needs for both plants, but add 1 ppm B is not the correct way of doing it if you are thinking of that, i personally believe in Both toxicity and Deficiency, as both can occur in our tanks, so i play it safely. i hope this make sense.


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## burr740

The good thing about having all three tanks set up the same way is that I can be more sure about what caused something, or what didnt.

All three tanks have the same substrate and tap water. Same filters with surface skimmers, similar flow, same type of co2 reactors. Same T5 lighting with PAR ranging from 90-120. A similar fish or shrimp bioload and they all get the exact same ferts.

Let's say I change ferts and only one tank reacts. Well then it might be something else, biomass overload in the 120, low co2 in the 50, some other unknown in the 75.

Its also why I like to keep some of the same plants in each one. If Ludwigia red puckers up in one tank but not the other two, then it's probably not the ferts but something else specific to that particular tank.

So it also helps pinpoint other issues that may arise. Say a little BBA shows up in the 75...probably not the ferts, might be time to clean the filter...

But if all three tanks have the same response then it's safe to assume it's a direct result of whatever change was made.


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## happi

Joe, any more update on your tank with Ni dosing with some pictures?


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## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Obligatory FTS. Today's word is biomass, as in too much of it. Trim is long overdue!


Why do you believe biomass is a bad thing? It appears to me that everything's getting good flow and is healthy.


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## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> Why do you believe biomass is a bad thing? It appears to me that everything's getting good flow and is healthy.


There's usually a tipping point when severe overgrowth begins to cause issues. Issues like stunting or algae, anything really, which can appear to stem from a myriad of other causes like ferts or co2, or whatever. But no it is simply a biomass overload. Adding more gas or ferts or wont help.

Thats why trimming and pruning is such an underrated aspect of keeping a fast-driven tank running smoothly. You see threads all the time from folks trying to figure out why they have bba all of a sudden, or this or that plant is stunting. 

What usually ensues is a drawn out discussion of what deficiency or toxicity has magically appeared, meticulous analysis of every ppm, offered up by well meaning and knowledgeable folks just trying to help. 

In many such cases all that is needed is a good bushwhacking and to clear out some older plant mass = especially if things were previously going well for any length of time. It is amazing how many issues a good trim and clean out will quickly solve (and prevent) 

You mentioned that it looks like good flow in my picture, and there is, at least in the top half of the water column. Here's the FTS in question










Its hard to grasp from the picture but that bush of Ludwigia red is bigger than a basketball. The height is not the problem though. The problem is it's been topped few times already leaving the stumps to sprout new ones, which is not a bad way to handle this plant.

But after 3-4 times without uprooting, such as the case has been here, the lower half is now a very dense wad of stems and side shoots, areal roots and tons of crappy leaves. A wad so dense a shrimp couldnt walk through it (exaggeration obviously but you get the picture)

This is all garbage material that's doing nothing but blocking flow, leaching organics, and sucking up valuable resources. The Penthorum and Mini Limno are in a similar state. 

The tank as a whole hadnt reached the tipping point I mentioned earlier where problems start to arise, but its not far from it and just happened to be getting on my nerves at the time.


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## Phil Edwards

Interesting. I guess I haven't experienced that as I typically follow a topping then replant regimen with my stems. I hardly ever top more than once; twice at the most if I'm preparing for a competition photo shoot. The replanting gives me a good chance to clean out all the crap that's accumulated at the substrate and removes the older stem material. What was unintentionally old is new again?


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## burr740

happi said:


> Joe, any more update on your tank with Ni dosing with some pictures?


I'll post an update soon. In the process of setting up two new 20 longs in the back room (yay!!) so things have been a little chaotic lately.

As for the Ni, nothing much to report really. I couldnt tell much difference one way or the other for the first week and a half, then the whole Purigen thing happened. (This is a long drawn out discussion I wont try to copy it all here. Anyone interested can check out the last few pages of that thread)

Since removing the Purigen form all my filters things have really kicked up a notch. As I said in the other thread, either the nickel is soaking in and doing wonders, or the Purigen was having a negative effect on something.

Either way it's hard now to make any direct correlations from adding nickel, other than to say there's been no negative effects that I can tell dosing .5 ppb every day

Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> Interesting. I guess I haven't experienced that as I typically follow a topping then replant regimen with my stems. I hardly ever top more than once; twice at the most if I'm preparing for a competition photo shoot. The replanting gives me a good chance to clean out all the crap that's accumulated at the substrate and removes the older stem material. What was unintentionally old is new again?


Its easy for me to get lazy probably because I "re-home" so many plants. There's a tendency to just top things and leave all the stumps, rinse and repeat 3-4 weeks later, and again and again.

If not for that I would be a lot more meticulous with things, doing more like you said.


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## Phil Edwards

Since nickel has a +2 charge the Purigen may have been removing it from the water. It's normally selective for +1 materialss, but it won't say no to a +2 if it gets close enough. The reason it's more effective against organic compounds is they're big and get trapped more easily than the smaller metallic ions.


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## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> Since nickel has a +2 charge the Purigen may have been removing it from the water. It's normally selective for +1 materialss, but it won't say no to a +2 if it gets close enough. The reason it's more effective against organic compounds is they're big and get trapped more easily than the smaller metallic ions.


Very interesting. What other micro elements do you think it might affect?


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## Greggz

Burr nice explanation above about bio mass, and I couldn't agree with you more. 

Like you said, this is something that is not discussed often, but it has finally sunk in for me. 

Just the other day, I dealt with a patch of Hygro Cory Compact. It was a group of nine plants that just grew into a big blob. Noticed it was loosing a few leaves, and some alga starting to form on the old growth. I pulled them all out, and split three of the plants into nine smaller ones. Within days they showed beautiful new growth. 

And the mini limno and Lud. Sp. Red are two great examples. Once in a while you just need to yank them out and reduce the mass. In a few days they bounce back better than ever.

And I've said this before but it bears repeating. When some people see your tank, I know they must think boy that guy is lucky. He must have miracle gro coming right out of the tap (I know that's what I thought when I first came here!)

But when I see your tank, I see the results of someone who is working harder at it, and pays very close attention to detail. What you present doesn't happen by accident, and there is far more to it than most imagine. 

And I agree, with all the discussion of lighting/ferts/Co2 etc, I've noticed that with most of the very successful planted tankers that I follow, good old fashioned elbow grease is also a key component, and not to be underestimated.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Just the other day, I dealt with a patch of Hygro Cory Compact. It was a group of nine plants that just grew into a big blob. Noticed it was loosing a few leaves, and some alga starting to form on the old growth. I pulled them all out, and split three of the plants into nine smaller ones. Within days they showed beautiful new growth.


This is a perfect example. Many folks would start questioning their CO2 and ferts at this point, chasing endless phantoms in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole.

When a little attention to the plant itself is all that was ever needed.


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## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> This is a perfect example. Many folks would start questioning their CO2 and ferts at this point, chasing endless phantoms in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole.
> 
> When a little attention to the plant itself is all that was ever needed.


Very good point made here.
Trim, clean, and wait!


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## Immortal1

Maryland Guppy said:


> Very good point made here.
> Trim, clean, and wait!


Figured I would emphasize this particular point as I seem to have a real problem with "understanding" it....
I am getting much better with "Trim" and "Clean", but...


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> in a perpetual game of whack-a-mole.


I think this sums up my life in general :grin2:


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Very interesting. What other micro elements do you think it might affect?


I'd say anything with the proper electric charge. I want to emphasize that, based on what I've found in pointed discussion with the folks at Seachem, Purigen tends to be most effective against dissolved organics. However, the concept of ion exchange resins is they'll remove anything that has an appropriate charge and comes into contact with the material.


----------



## burr740

Time for a long overdue update. Things have been crazy the past couple of weeks as Ive been setting up two new 20 gal tanks. More on that later. The three big tanks are all overgrown and crammed full of too many species, very little scaping going on in the 120. But that is about to change!

The one constant these past few weeks has been a daily dosing of micros at the following ppms:

Fe DTPA - .2 ppm
Mn - .09 ppm
B - .035 ppm
Zn - .065 ppm
Mo - .0025 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Up until two weeks ago N was 5 ppm KNO3 3x per week, and daily urea at .3 ppm. I started noticing some pale tops in a few plants. Well it certainly wasnt a shortage of Fe, and the next likely suspect was nitrogen. So I added an additional 2.5 ppm KNO3 and with just a couple of doses the pale plants colored up again and everything in general seemed to really take off.

Gotta say Ive never been real impressed with urea, so Im ditching it completely and starting KNO3 at 10 ppm 3x per week.

Posted this in the micro thread on TPT but it's relevant to dosing 10 ppm

Looking back to around a year and a half ago, the 50 gal went a few months at 10/2/10 NO3/P/K. Vin and I were trying to see whether high macros stunted Lythracae, specifically Rotala sunset.

It was during this time I had some of the best sunset growth Ive ever seen, and havent been able to duplicate it since.



















Thats the main reason I feel confident going back to 10 ppm KNO3. No urea back then either. Fwiw micros at the time were .0187 ppm of each; csmb, dtpa, and gluc, 3x per week

Here's some current pics how things are doing

Rotala macranda variegated, Limnophila belem, Rotala wallichii in the 50 










Wallichii in the 120










Persicaria sao paulo in the 75. When this plant's leaves are flat and horizontal things are pretty damn good.










^ also you can see a few Pantanal tops here. It's not even a challenge these days, grows an inch a day and no longer stunts after a topping. I've moved it all to the 75, just gonna farm a small group for a while, not sure Im gonna use it in the 120

Mermaid weed in the 50










Ludwigia brevipes in one of the new 20s. It's been in a back corner of the 75 for a few months almost completely shaded, that's why its so green. Starting to color up nice after, four days I think


----------



## burr740

Added some AR mini variegated to the 120. These were all split from two mother plants in the 75. Still a good bit of undulation but growing fairly well lately. The plants themselves were in bad need of some pruning attention. We'll see how it goes. Might put the regular here if these dont flatten out better.











About a month ago I gave the Hydro japan a severe chopping. (spot the shrimp?)










See all those white roots? Well you should've seen the backside of the wall, a thick solid wad of roots going down 4-5 inches.

Which wouldnt have been so bad but since the majority were now just roots with no greenery attached, it quickly started to brown and rot away. 

After finally getting all that cleaned up, NEVER AGAIN will I use this plant here. Will probably go back to the regular Pennywort, at least part of the way around.


----------



## burr740

Set up two new 20 longs in the back room. 










For co2 I copied @fablau 's 20, using an Ista reactor instead of a Sera. Seras are great, a 500 model runs the 50.

Not sure about these Istas though. Getting a ton of mist running only 2-3 bubbles per second. The powerheads are Maxi-jet 400s, rated at 110 GPH. They are a few years old. Not sure if it's too much flow or not enough. In spite of the heavy mist, which I really dont mind, the PH drops hard and fast. So I'll probably just go with this for a while.










Was thinking about putting Aquaclear 20s on the end right above the Ista's output. That would add a little more actual filtration and the current would blow the bubbles down better.

For lights I wanted to go with T5s if possible, but I knew a good dual bulb with individual reflectors would be way too much. So I took a chance on Oddyseas which has only one reflector for both bulbs.

Only 35 bucks each and came with 6500K bulbs. Currently running one 6500K and one Zoomed Flora










PAR in the middle area directly underneath is 75, that's about what I was hoping for. Too bad they're only 24" long and the tank is 30. Its not a huge deal because the powerhead and reactor conglomeration takes up 3-4 inches on the right. So I was able to cheat the lights far to the left and only be a couple inches short on both ends. PAR on the very end drops to around 35. Still plenty for a lot of things

Substrate is blasting sand, same as the other tanks. Put down a thin layer of sand first then sprinkled in some Osmocote Plus, capped it off with the rest.

Using about this much has worked out well in a few tanks


----------



## Greggz

Burr nice updates, and great pictures as usual.

I've gotta hand it to you setting up even more tanks. You truly are a dedicated plant keeper.

And it occurs to me you must be a busy guy on water change day.

I've thought about it many times, but just don't know if I want that much more to care for.

That being said.........it sure would be nice to have some grow out tanks.......hmmmmmmmm.

I should probably stop reading your thread. My weak mind is too susceptible to the power of suggestion:grin2:


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## Rogue_Wolf

Incredible work! Absolutely inspiring pictures, all I have to say is wow! That’s a next-level tank setup for sure! Now I’ve gone and done it hahaha shouldn’t have read your thread cause I want one too now!


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> See all those white roots? Well you should've seen the backside of the wall, a thick solid wad of roots going down 4-5 inches.
> 
> Which wouldnt have been so bad but since the majority were now just roots with no greenery attached, it quickly started to brown and rot away.
> 
> After finally getting all that cleaned up, NEVER AGAIN will I use this plant here. Will probably go back to the regular Pennywort, at least part of the way around.


lol, I learned this the hard way too. Not worth it.


----------



## burr740

Starting to have something that resembles a plan











Not thrilled with the Leopard val. It's just a big dark shadow unless you see whats on the surface











I think a brighter plant would look better. May put the corkscrew there and a tall grassy something on the right

The giant Barclaya longifolia red came from Vin's tank. Im babysitting it for a week or two then it's off to a new home. It's blooming!










Left side is pretty well mapped out. Might do something else in place of Acmella, thinking Pogo erectus if I can get it to do right. Gonna try it again with the new dosing










New AR growth is coming in decent. Had to yank a couple bad ones down front and put in fresh babies. 











Notice my secret weapon at the base of the Nuphar, a plastic zip-tie to hold the leaves more straight up.











Fat little shrimp chillin in the 50


----------



## Greggz

Nice update Burr! Good to see a few more pictures, you've been slacking lately!! :wink2:

Interesting use of the Pogo K. I would never think to use it that short. Looks good the way you tiered it there. 

And the plants all look healthy and vibrant as usual. You do get optimum color out of just about everything.

I like that Nuphar but it is blocking the Wallachii. You shouldn't hide what you have done with that stuff. I might try it again but could never get it to look like yours.

Is the tall grass in the very back middle Helanthium Bolivianum Angustifolius?? If so will it keep going right to the surface?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Nice update Burr! Good to see a few more pictures, you've been slacking lately!! :wink2:
> 
> Interesting use of the Pogo K. I would never think to use it that short. Looks good the way you tiered it there.
> 
> And the plants all look healthy and vibrant as usual. You do get optimum color out of just about everything.
> 
> I like that Nuphar but it is blocking the Wallachii. You shouldn't hide what you have done with that stuff. I might try it again but could never get it to look like yours.
> 
> Is the tall grass in the very back middle Helanthium Bolivianum Angustifolius?? If so will it keep going right to the surface?


Thanks man

Kimberly makes a great midground row or bush, especially since it grows slow and doesnt mind being topped and replanted.

Ideally here the Kimberly will be taller than the L red, say midway up the tank. The L red will be shorter or about the same as now, and probably narrower. Then the B colorata will be considerably taller than the L red. Thats the plan anyway.

Color has everything to do with the lights, as you're well aware. 

Nuphar is about as tall as Im going to allow. Already cutting the biggest leaf or two off about every two weeks. Theres no telling what the root system looks like. 

I'd just replanted the wallichii tops a few days ago is why its so short. As far as the scape goes it will be way on up a few inches from the surface. 

I need to ask Vin what the grass is again. I keep writing it down and losing it. @Saxa Tilly

There's a couple Isoetes right behind it, both sorta blended in atm. One or the other is gonna stay. Probably move the grass to one of the front corners.


----------



## burr740

Fert happenings: 

Micros Im still dosing the .2 blend almost every day. It continues to be favorable.

Couple weeks ago I increased P from 2 ppm 3x to 2.5 ppm. Knowing that Pikez, Tom and Greggz all dose much higher levels I wanted to see what would happen. Ive tried higher levels before but not recently.

Only one really significant thing occurred. By the end of the week, about 1/3 of the wallichii in the 50 had stunted badly. Tops shriveled up and turned green. This plant has rolled along for months now without so much as a hiccup. The only thing changed was higher P.

Wallichii in the 120 was unaffected for the most part.

So 60% water change, cut the worst tops off in the 50, back down to 2 ppm last week and things are fine again.

Idk what it is about P and my tanks but every time I try to go up bad things happen. Its been that way for a couple of years going back to the high/low csmb days. It must interfere with something else is all I can think of.

And still it's only one plant we're talking about here. Nothing else seemed to notice a difference.

This week I just started 1.5 ppm 3x, gonna see how that works.

Some pics from today

Wallichii in the 50 










In the 120











Young Pantanal coming off stumps in the 75










Bottoms











The plan going forward Im gonna give the new P a couple of weeks to see if 1.5 is any better than 2. 

Then, if nothing happens to change my mind, Im either going up to .25 daily micros, or down to .15 - just to see what happens. Havent decided which yet.

/ferts


Couple of nights ago I pulled the Nuphar and cut it down to about 1/3 of what it was. I think it's screwing up the whole scale of the tank being so big. It's most likely destined for the auction block but I still need to find a good specimen plant to use in the general vicinity. Something tall and green that doesnt get the diameter of a beach ball.

The after:











Scored 4 Rotala sunsets from herns. Apparently the last 4 stems in the country that anyone is willing to part with.  











AR settling in and starting to grow a little faster now. Really hope the new growth stays flat(er). Will slowly pinch the older leaves off as it goes

(Penthorum looks rough because it was mowed down to stumps a couple weeks ago. No worries there, it'll come back with a vengance)


----------



## Greggz

Interesting on the PO4 Burr. The way your Wallachii responded might be a clue as to why I can't grow it?

As you know I finally found the upper limit of PO4 in my tank, but it's MUCH higher than yours.

I agree about the Nuphar. Too big and draws the eye right to it and dominates the scape. But still a nice looking interesting plant. 

By the way, a couple of those Macranda Var. tops look very, very happy...........and the AR too....top notch!!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> I need to ask Vin what the grass is again. I keep writing it down and losing it. @Saxa Tilly


Gregg is right - Helanthium bolivianum Angustifolia.


----------



## Williak

Tanks are looking amazing as always Burr. 

What is this huge broad leafed, yellowish plant? About at 1/3 from the right side. Looks incredible 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Williak said:


> Tanks are looking amazing as always Burr.
> 
> What is this huge broad leafed, yellowish plant? About at 1/3 from the right side. Looks incredible


Thanks!

Nuphar lutea, its the plant I was talking about in the last post getting too big and unruly.


----------



## Nlewis

Burr I think it’s time to change the picture in your signature. Your skills have evolved and that old pic just isn’t good enough anymore.


----------



## burr740

The question was asked on BR why Rotala wallichii had better color in the 120 than in the 50. The answer is light.

And since @Greggz is over there showing out with his new fancy Seneye  it seems like a good time to make a light post.


Wallichii in the 50










In the 120











About 85 PAR at the sub in the 50, from this 










Bulbs front to back:
6500K
Truelumen Flora











About 120 PAR at the sub in the 120, from this










Bulbs front to back:
ATI purple
3000K
Zoomed 420 Actinic
Powerveg 633
6500K 
Zoomed Flora sun










Typically you want more reds in front and blues in back for slightly better depth effect. But the 3000K and the Powerveg is so red/warm it helps to look through some blue first.

Im still not in love with the color rendition on the 120. Ever since installing the moss walls, all that extra green changed things, havent been able to find a combo I really like since.

@Nlewis , 75 nostalgia!


----------



## Maryland Guppy

@150 PAR it will make great bottle brushes, but does one want to risk it???>


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> The question was asked on BR why Rotala wallichii had better color in the 120 than in the 50. The answer is light.
> 
> And since @Greggz is over there showing out with his new fancy Seneye  it seems like a good time to make a light post.


Burr very interesting and exactly what I was talking about in my thread. 

I think the importance of intensity/color of light is more than most people think. 

And your Wallachii is a great example. You could chase ferts or other things around all day trying to improve the color of the Wallachii..........but very hard to do unless you turn up the PAR, like in your 120G.


----------



## fablau

Wow, what a difference of colors... I am wondering if increasing PAR in my 75gl could improve issues with some plants such as AR and Ambulia... Ambulia used to grow like a weed with just 30 PAR at the substrate and almost no ferts, and I could grow good AR with similar PAR (and almost no ferts). Now that ferts are high, both plants don't grow well, even though PAR is almost doubled (50-60 PAR). I am wondering if, once removed all possible nutrients limits, light could become a limiting factor as well to cause stunt? I am just throwing a crazy idea out there, I know, that probably doesn't make any sense...


----------



## Immortal1

fablau said:


> Wow, what a difference of colors... I am wondering if increasing PAR in my 75gl could improve issues with some plants such as AR and Ambulia... Ambulia used to grow like a weed with just 30 PAR at the substrate and almost no ferts, and I could grow good AR with similar PAR (and almost no ferts). Now that ferts are high, both plants don't grow well, even though PAR is almost doubled (50-60 PAR). I am wondering if, once removed all possible nutrients limits, light could become a limiting factor as well to cause stunt? I am just throwing a crazy idea out there, I know, that probably doesn't make any sense...


Funny to me you mention AR. I have some in my 20g low tech tank with a Finnex Planted + running maybe 8 hours per day. The AR has grown to the surface twice in recent memory. I my 75g high tech tank (same tap water), it does terribly. Just today I put one stem of AR back in the 75g. Hoping for the best, expecting the same.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> About 120 PAR at the sub in the 120, from this


Really like this pic Burr - hard to believe it generates that much power.....


----------



## fablau

Immortal1 said:


> Funny to me you mention AR. I have some in my 20g low tech tank with a Finnex Planted + running maybe 8 hours per day. The AR has grown to the surface twice in recent memory. I my 75g high tech tank (same tap water), it does terribly. Just today I put one stem of AR back in the 75g. Hoping for the best, expecting the same.




Very interesting... do you happen to know your PAR in the low tech tank?


----------



## Chlorophile

fablau said:


> Wow, what a difference of colors... I am wondering if increasing PAR in my 75gl could improve issues with some plants such as AR and Ambulia... Ambulia used to grow like a weed with just 30 PAR at the substrate and almost no ferts, and I could grow good AR with similar PAR (and almost no ferts). Now that ferts are high, both plants don't grow well, even though PAR is almost doubled (50-60 PAR). I am wondering if, once removed all possible nutrients limits, light could become a limiting factor as well to cause stunt? I am just throwing a crazy idea out there, I know, that probably doesn't make any sense...


Less nutrients and the plant is limited in some way, perhaps it can do more with what it has regarding light or has no choice.
If you give a man not much food, he can get very buff.
Give him a lot of food but don't increase his exercise (par) and he will get fat.
Bad metaphor but the plants do seem to have better color under low lighting if starved. When you feed them they will not look as good unless you get the light high and make them starved again


----------



## Greggz

Chlorophile said:


> Bad metaphor but the plants do seem to have better color under low lighting if starved. When you feed them they will not look as good unless you get the light high and make them starved again


Question for you Chlorophile. Have you personally been able to induce good color from plants under low light by starving them? 

I only ask because I have read this several times, but don't know of anyone who has actually done it. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it.

I know for me I've never seen plants get better color from starving them under either low or high light. For me, starving plants under either light just results in dead or dying plants (and algae). I get the best color out of well fed happy plants. 

So I am wondering is starving plants really a technique that brings out color??

Burr I wonder what your thoughts are on this???


----------



## burr740

A better analogy is the gas pedal of a car. Light is the pedal, nutrients and co2 is the gas. The harder you push the pedal the more gas it consumes

Fat plants are happy and show their best. Starved plants tend to suck.

The whole keeping N low to bring out the red only works for a few species and is actually a stress response. Ive seen it happen in mine and its never a good thing overall

Pantanal with a bright cherry red center is a prime example. It might look cool but its not a happy plant


----------



## Immortal1

fablau said:


> Very interesting... do you happen to know your PAR in the low tech tank?


At the moment, I do not. Light dimmed down before I read your post. Should be able to check it tomorrow during the day and will post a reply.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> A better analogy is the gas pedal of a car. Light is the pedal, *nutrients and co2 is the gas*. The harder you push the pedal the more gas it consumes
> 
> Fat plants are happy and show their best. Starved plants tend to suck.
> 
> The whole keeping N low to bring out the red only works for a few species and is actually a stress response. Ive seen it happen in mine and its never a good thing overall
> 
> Pantanal with a bright cherry red center is a prime example. It might look cool but its not a happy plant


Starting to think I am still putting 87 octane in the tank. Seem to be gobbling up Nitrate and Phosphate faster than expected. Will check those 2 tomorrow morning again before dosing macros - might have to splurge and go with the 93 octane for a few weeks :grin2:


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Starting to think I am still putting 87 octane in the tank. Seem to be gobbling up Nitrate and Phosphate faster than expected. Will check those 2 tomorrow morning again before dosing macros - might have to splurge and go with the 93 octane for a few weeks :grin2:


Everything runs better with premium!

Recently Ive increased macros to 10/1.5/10 NO3/P/K. This made a dramatic improvement in size and color. Then a couple weeks later started doing a 1.5x dose after water changes and two more singles during the week, then went to a double dose after the water change. Since doing the extra big doses several things are even fatter and healthier looking than ever before.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Immortal1 said:


> Starting to think I am still putting 87 octane in the tank. Seem to be gobbling up Nitrate and Phosphate faster than expected. Will check those 2 tomorrow morning again before dosing macros - might have to splurge and go with the 93 octane for a few weeks


I test at least something in my tanks once per week.
Lately it has been NO3, and they have been holding for 1 week @ 20ppm.
Other weeks it's 2x EI all week long, go figure.
Macro dosing is way more safe than micro dosing.>


----------



## ILikeRice

Would you recommend the oddysea that was posted in the last page?


----------



## Chlorophile

Greggz said:


> Question for you Chlorophile. Have you personally been able to induce good color from plants under low light by starving them?
> 
> I only ask because I have read this several times, but don't know of anyone who has actually done it. And I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I've just never seen it.
> 
> I know for me I've never seen plants get better color from starving them under either low or high light. For me, starving plants under either light just results in dead or dying plants (and algae). I get the best color out of well fed happy plants.
> 
> So I am wondering is starving plants really a technique that brings out color??
> 
> Burr I wonder what your thoughts are on this???


Personally yes, atleast Bacopa Caroliniana it gets very copper at the tips in my tank that is neglected. Far far more than the B. Colorata in my high tech tank. Honestly if I took the two stems out you'd get them backwards. 
As far as the botany is concerned, there are two ways to produce red coloration. 
Anthocyanin is present all the time, but when the plant can't produce chlorophyll quick enough or transfer it the anthocyanin is all that is present and you get a red coloration
Same thing happens in the fall during before the leafs absence, not so much in plants with quiescence though as they don't drop the leaf, ergo they do not stop the flow of chlorophyll until the leaf is simply dead. 

I think in actively growing plants it a little different, but I've seen dennis wong talk about it plenty and demonstrate it as well. 
Like we talk about traces being a limiting factor at times, or N, or P..
When nothing is limiting except light I don't think you will induce good coloration. 
If somethings are limiting more than light, the plant can't cope as well and the current lighting might produce more stress response and ergo anthocyanins. 
This is something unique to red plants, but its definitely something I can prove with pictures I have in my library. 
I have pics of rotala rotundifolia looking better than nearly anyones I've ever seen, under a single Current Satelite + pro, during a very lean part of my early tank set up. 

And I think it's a large part of why many of the original dutch guys who were running lower light to maintain lower growth rates (and therefor keeping the scape the way they intend for longer) ran very lean dosing.

as far as the gas analogy goes: a car designed to run 87 octane wont benefit from 93.. in plants though I think if you pour good gas on them but the gas pedal isn't pressed all the way you won't see any results. 

It shouldn't be a confusing concept, why does higher light produce certain physiology in the first place? 
It's pushing a plant to some kind of nutrient limit. 
If you limit it in another way, half throttle should push it to a similar limit. 
Exceptions abound of course, node length and leaf density are gonna be largely independent of things like coloration.

double edit: 
Nitrogen in turfgrass produces dark green coloration.. 
Without it you get yellowing. 
Nitrogen on trees in the fall will completely negate red coloration even on maple and red oak. 
Coincidence? 
Theres definitely science behind it, but I think when people say they can't reproduce it they are operating a tank with high fish load and couldn't actually provide the low N level necessary even if they tried.


----------



## burr740

ILikeRice said:


> Would you recommend the oddysea that was posted in the last page?


Yeah is a pretty good light for the money. Id definitely plan on getting a red/pink type bulb to replace one of the 6500Ks with though. All 6500K light is pretty washed out

The on/off switch is on the ballast, which is about 1 foot from the plug at the end of the cord. That could be an inconvenience if you're manually turning it on and off every day.


----------



## ILikeRice

burr740 said:


> Yeah is a pretty good light for the money. Id definitely plan on getting a red/pink type bulb to replace one of the 6500Ks with though. All 6500K light is pretty washed out
> 
> The on/off switch is on the ballast, which is about 1 foot from the plug at the end of the cord. That could be an inconvenience if you're manually turning it on and off every day.


Thank you for the information! I'll give this a try to add on with my current lighting.


----------



## SLOBY

burr740 said:


> The question was asked on BR why Rotala wallichii had better color in the 120 than in the 50. The answer is light.
> 
> And since @Greggz is over there showing out with his new fancy Seneye  it seems like a good time to make a light post.
> 
> 
> Wallichii in the 50
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the 120
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 85 PAR at the sub in the 50, from this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bulbs front to back:
> 6500K
> Truelumen Flora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 120 PAR at the sub in the 120, from this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> @Nlewis , 75 nostalgia!


Help me I'm new to all this. Is it the color of the bulb that makes the Wallichii so red or is it the PAR? I have a feeling you will say both but I guess what I'm getting at is lower par and more red light could that color be achieved? I was planning on doing a 60 gal cube rimless with a pendent light as i like the way the tank looks as a whole. But man your tanks are beautiful and I would love to be able to achieve that with a pendant if possible.


----------



## burr740

SLOBY said:


> Help me I'm new to all this. Is it the color of the bulb that makes the Wallichii so red or is it the PAR? I have a feeling you will say both but I guess what I'm getting at is lower par and more red light could that color be achieved? I was planning on doing a 60 gal cube rimless with a pendent light as i like the way the tank looks as a whole. But man your tanks are beautiful and I would love to be able to achieve that with a pendant if possible.


Thanks!

I'd say the color of the light is more important than PAR. You could blast wallichii with any amount of PAR using all 6500K and it would never look like the ones in the 120.

On the flip side, 60-70 PAR with heavy reds and blues (yes blues are important too!) and it'll have the nice color, just grow a little slower and smaller.

How it appears to our eyes is not entirely dependent on the plant either. The coloration of the lighting plays heavily on how a plant looks because the light is reflected back to us. For example I could put those stems from the 50 gal in the 120 and they would immediately have better color. To put it more accurately they would appear to have better color, which is all that really matters.

Ive never used a pendant but one complaint Ive always heard is stem plants have a bad habit of all leaning in towards the center where the highest intensity is.

Wallichii of course isnt much of a leaner but most stem plants are. It makes for a weird look

On a nature style tank it probably wouldnt matter, crypts and mosses and carpet plants dont lean. But if your planning a Dutch type layout full of colorful stems then another type of light might work better.

You may want to check out some of the 'black box' LEDs type units, SBreef is a good brand and there's a few Chinese knock offs. You can adjust the spectrum on most and from what Ive seen plants look pretty good underneath. Never used one personally though


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Everything runs better with premium!
> 
> Recently Ive increased macros to 10/1.5/10 NO3/P/K. This made a dramatic improvement in size and color. Then a couple weeks later started doing a 1.5x dose after water changes and two more singles during the week, then went to a double dose after the water change. Since doing the extra big doses several things are even fatter and healthier looking than ever before.


Interesting. So if you do a 2x dose, then two more 1x doses, you are dosing 40ppm NO3 a week, and 6ppm PO4. I don't remember you dosing near those levels for quite some time, if ever.

I've had very similar experience. For some time, I was dosing 1x macros right after water change, then again the next day, then two more later in the week. So 4x doses per week.

This week I did 2x macro dose after water change, and another 2x three days later. Seems like my plants like that front end loading too. 

Well just goes to show with this hobby the only thing constant is change!


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Interesting. So if you do a 2x dose, then two more 1x doses, you are dosing 40ppm NO3 a week, and 6ppm PO4. I don't remember you dosing near those levels for quite some time, if ever.
> 
> I've had very similar experience. For some time, I was dosing 1x macros right after water change, then again the next day, then two more later in the week. So 4x doses per week.
> 
> This week I did 2x macro dose after water change, and another 2x three days later. Seems like my plants like that front end loading too.
> 
> Well just goes to show with this hobby the only thing constant is change!


Well its only been one 2x dose after the water change, just since we talked the other day. But things were definitely loving the 1.5x, and now 2x seems even better.


----------



## Immortal1

fablau said:


> Very interesting... do you happen to know your PAR in the low tech tank?


The first 2 pics are from my 20g low tech tank which is running a single Finnex Planted + light around 7 hours per day.
Pic 1 is near the substrate (little too dense to get it all the way down).









This pic is with about 1 inch of water over the sensor









And just for fun, this is the heat lamp sitting over one of the bearded dragon cages...


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Immortal1 said:


> And just for fun, this is the heat lamp sitting over one of the bearded dragon cages...


Now we are talking!


----------



## MMMAAA

*outgrowth*

If you made this a palludarium, would the plants grow up and out of the water ?


----------



## burr740

Welp, the double dosing macros after water change experiment has come to a screeching halt due to a severe GDA outbreak in all 3 big tanks.

It's mostly on the glass. The 120 has it the worst, not surprising because it has the most light, the 75 is next and the 50 is a mere nuisance level. When everything is right there's none at all. Sometimes I'll go 2-3 weeks without even touching the front glass.

It started showing up on the front glass of the 120 about halfway through the first week. No big deal, just wiped it off at water change and turned the UVs on.

But the second week it got worse, much worse in the 120. By day 3 it was seriously blocking the view.

So day 5 I did an 80% WC on all three tanks. Dosed back the single amount of 10/1.5/10 and thats where Im staying for a while, 3x per week.

If you recall I'd dosed 1.5x after water changes for I think 3 weeks prior. Plants seemed to like it. Then I went to 2x. Plants seemed to like that too for the most part.

It has to be the culprit behind this GDA because its the only thing thats changed in recent weeks. I think after 2-3 weeks it finally built up to peak levels, which is too much

The only plant affected is the Lagenandra in the 120. Probably wind up just cutting these two older leaves off but Im gonna wait a few days and see if it clears up by itself. This plant is amazingly efficient at ridding itself of algae once the cause is dealt with.











Wallichii in the 120 aint worried about much of anything, already at the surface again. 










Here's the pic from 9 days ago. That's why its best to start the tops out very short when you replant. If you start them out tall close to the sweet spot you'll be doing it every week










Another interesting development is Hygrophila siamesis 53B in the 50 fattened up a lot over the past few weeks. Im thinking due to the higher macros, we'll see if the trend continues. Hard to tell from the pic but that one top is nearly 6" wide. Thats pretty big for the species, at least for me so far.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

FWIW I have spoken of 2x EI macros in the past.
I am guilty of water testing once per week, that's what led to the 2x EI macros.
This is also not consistent from week to week, trimming etc.. changes things a lot.
e.g. this week during trimming no macros at all, PO4 has been over 2 and holding it's own.


----------



## burr740

Posted this in the micro thread but Im adding it here too, pretty good stuff

One of the new 20 gal is producing some of the biggest and best looking Ludwigia sp reds Ive ever grown or seen. 

The two or three biggest ones are damn near 3" wide




















The question was then asked what might be the difference between these new tanks and the others, why it's growing so big here

Same tap water, same type of lights, roughly the same PH drop from co2, same substrate,

Dosing has been slightly less. The 20s arent getting the double macro dose after water changes (the other tanks arent going to be either going forward but that's another story)

Flow is probably a little stronger, I switched from the powerhead sponges going through Ista reactors to Aquaclear 70 HOBs mounted on the ends. There are baffles on the outflow to cut down velocity, but there's no doubt more water volume is passing over these plants than in the other tanks

PAR is about 75 at the sub against the back wall, in the center its about 90. The 50 gal is in the 85-90 range. So not a whole lot of difference there. (For those who read the initial PAR readings in the 20s, it jumped up probably 10-15 points a few days later after the new bulbs "burned in"

There's a fresh batch of Osmocote+ in the substrate. I dont think this is much of a factor because the tops have been replanted twice. There hasnt been much tiime to make roots. These were started from small cut tops just a few inches tall. They've hit the surface twice already. (first week was a little rough) I replanted them for the second time last week and they didnt miss a beat. So if the O+ is having an effect on these particular plants, it's from whatever is leeching into the wc.

Personally I have no idea what the difference maker is. More flow and probably a higher concentration of everything in a small volume of water would be my guess.

But sometimes things just click fro no apparent reason. Surface film disappears, the water becomes crystal clear and the plant are all singing halleluja.

For the first couple of weeks there was a wicked diatom bloom, some GDA, and some sort of dark spot algae took over the older leaves of several plants. Everything was brand new starting out, new sand, filter sponges, everything. So there was zero bio-filter for a while.

I added 3 otos to each one and threw in a few guppy and platy fry. Did 2x weekly water changes for the first 3 weeks. All that algae started going away in week 2. Its been one of the easiest start ups ever really


----------



## Greggz

Very, very interesting Burr. 

As you know, I just started front end loading macros with a 2x dose on water change day. Yesterday was just the second time. Same for me, plants seem to like it. Global pearling a good indication.

I'll be watching my glass for any unusual algae now. I'll be very interested to see what comes next.


----------



## burr740

Trim time!! 

Today's episode featuring Ludwigia sp red and Bacopa colorata

Before











Pinch all the nice tops off, arrange in piles of short, med, and tall, scraps to the side for replanting elsewhere











Repeat for colorata











Toss all this ratty bottom stuff, good opportunity to remove unwanted biomass











Suck out the leftover crud with a siphon hose, just lightly skimming the surface. Careful to avoid curious fish!











Replant tops one by one, the Ludwigia sometimes two at a time. 

Vois la 











Bacopa should now be good for a month or so. Colorata grows a lot slower than it's cousin, B caroliniana

The Ludwigia red will need doing again in 2-3 weeks. It can be just mowed once or twice leaving the stumps to come back. Each stump will put out several new ones and the group becomes nice and thick. After a couple mowing/repsrout cycles it's time to start over again with just tops. 


Starting to hash out <yet another> plan for the scape. 










Some of these groups are just placeholders for the time being. Have a few species in mind to swap out. There are currently some contrast fails and a lot will depend on how certain things grow. 










Check out that sweet Crypt Vin gave me, brand new to the hobby - Cryptocoryne spiralis 'red tiger'. New leaves have a green stripe in the middle, older leaves are pinkish brown with dark striations.

Is this thing ballin or what?? Thanks Vin!!










I invited a few old friends with a habit of breaking my heart back to the party. Just cant help myself. :icon_eek: This front right section will here fore be known as "Nemesis Corner"

Rotala sunsets. Those 4 little tops are growing pretty nice. Tops arernt perfect, a little gnarly, good size and diameter though

Syn giants have been in here maybe a week. Two or three smaller ones have been clamped up like that since they got here. Not sure what they're thinking. Others still looking pretty good. We'll see...

AR mini variegated is all new babies started over from the previous big ones. They were still too undulated to look worth a damn, definitely not good enough to be front and center. I auctioned them off 'as is' on FB. Gonna try one more round and see if they grow any better. If not something else is going right here.




















Fert update:


----------



## Spiffyfish

i think i might want to try that bacopa colorata, i got bacopa red but its not really red its more brown.


----------



## Ben Belton

burr740 said:


> Bacopa should now be good for a month or so. Colorata grows a lot slower than it's cousin, B caroliniana


I read the first sentence and thought, Are you kidding me? But then I read the second part and though, Ah.. OK. I've never had the Colorata, but I know the normal one can grow out of the tank in just a few days. I love Bacopa. Hope to have the Colorata some day.




burr740 said:


> Check out that sweet Crypt Vin gave me, brand new to the hobby - Cryptocoryne spiralis 'red tiger'. New leaves have a green stripe in the middle, older leaves are pinkish brown with dark striations.
> 
> Is this thing ballin or what?? Thanks Vin!!


That's awesome. Never seen that one.


----------



## burr740

Im still very much trying to learn how to create depth and scale while not using too many species according Dutch guidelines. This 4' tank should have no more than 12-14 total species. For me this is a big challenge to say the least.

Here's some tentative thoughts and plans on where things are headed, using my highly sophisticated MS Paint skills (which I dont often reveal to just anyone!) Input is welcome










1. Have a single species going all the way front to back. A true Dutch artist would use plain old Wisteria here. It'd be a great look, but Im not sure many true Dutch scapers are rolling with this much light either. Still Im tempted to try it.

2. Something tall leafy and green that doesnt get the size of a beach ball. Currently growing out some baby Nympoides taiwan, gonna try that next. If anyone has a line on Ottelia ulvifolia please let me know. That always looks good in pictures Ive seen.

3. Wallichii isnt the best background color to show off the new crypt. It's looking too good lately not to keep so the plan is move it behind the number 5 green

4. Thinking of replacing Penthorum with Lobelia small form. I really like that plant and its hard to beat for contrast and making a street. Will need to change the Clinopodium it if I do that. Penthourm is cool and all but damn it grows fast, and Im really just in the mood for something different

5. Combine Acmella and Ambulia into a single species. It would be an easy decision is Ambulia didnt grow so fast. Im literally chopping down a few stems twice a week, which is why the group looks so butchered now. Im just like why bother, lol. Acmella I think is extremely cool but it would take at least 100 stems to get the look needed here, maybe 200, especially for a group running sideways.

6. Not sure kimberly is the best look color-wise. A narrow line of Pantanals might work, but it would need to be distinctly slimmer than the Lud red group in order to not have a big look at me plant dead center. Acmella could be a candidate here. Need to find a way to keep that plant.

7. Mini aromatica isnt staying. it needs a bigger area for a nice bushy display, candidates for right here are Rotala indica, Clinopodium, Oldenlandia or Mini Myrio, something short and stemmy. Whatever winds up in area 1 will decide what goes in front of it.

8. Unless the AR becomes show worthy this will probably be all one green something. A big splathe of Syn giants would be nice, gotta see how it grows first. Lots of other options if it doesnt.


----------



## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> I read the first sentence and thought, Are you kidding me? But then I read the second part and though, Ah.. OK. I've never had the Colorata, but I know the normal one can grow out of the tank in just a few days. I love Bacopa. Hope to have the Colorata some day.


Well, a month might be pushing it.  If you ever want to try some just let me know, usually can spare a few.



Ben Belton said:


> That's awesome. Never seen that one.


Im pretty sure nobody else has seen it either. Its not really in the hobby yet from what I understand. Although I did see a guy on FB auctioning off a spiralis 'tiger' which looked very similar. Didnt have the green stripe though


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Trim time!!
> 
> Today's episode featuring Ludwigia sp red and Bacopa colorata
> 
> Before
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pinch all the nice tops off, arrange in piles of short, med, and tall, scraps to the side for replanting elsewhere


Great post Burr. Pics remind me of myself almost every weekend.

This subject is not discussed often enough. The trimming and management of species is a pretty big slice of the pie. Truth is, if you are high tech, and plants are growing, you have to be prepared to care for each species this way. It is time consuming, so you need to need to enjoy the process, or it could become a burden. 

For me, I find it therapeutic, and more importantly enjoy the results.

And as usual, everything is looking great. That new crypt certainly looks very interesting. And I agree about the Penthorum. Grows pretty fast to keep it right up front, and needs a lot of attention. I might move mine back more middle and let it grow a bit.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Great post Burr. Pics remind me of myself almost every weekend.
> 
> This subject is not discussed often enough. The trimming and management of species is a pretty big slice of the pie. Truth is, if you are high tech, and plants are growing, you have to be prepared to care for each species this way. It is time consuming, so you need to need to enjoy the process, or it could become a burden.
> 
> For me, I find it therapeutic, and more importantly enjoy the results.
> 
> And as usual, everything is looking great. That new crypt certainly looks very interesting. And I agree about the Penthorum. Grows pretty fast to keep it right up front, and needs a lot of attention. I might move mine back more middle and let it grow a bit.


Thanks Gregg!

And you definitely have to enjoy getting in there and messing with things. Like you said I find trimming and rearranging to be a calming, meditative activity (usually  ). If I considered it some kind of chore it would be no fun at all.

Penthorum will actually get very tall if you let it. Ive had them a foot tall before and round as a baseball bat! It stays pretty straight too


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Im still very much trying to learn how to create depth and scale while not using too many species according Dutch guidelines. This 4' tank should have no more than 12-14 total species. For me this is a big challenge to say the least.
> 
> Here's some tentative thoughts and plans on where things are headed, using my highly sophisticated MS Paint skills (which I dont often reveal to just anyone!) Input is welcome


Burr just wanted to let you know that at least one person really studies pics like this. Unfortunately, I don't have a lot to add, as I think you have a much better eye and sense of color/proportion than I do (and just growing great looking plants too!!). I study them to look for ideas in my own tank. 

The reason I mention it is that sometimes you don't get a lot of response from a post like this, but my guess is that are more like me who look forward to them, and find them very useful. It might interest you to know that I keep a "Burr" folder with many of your full tank shots. Sometimes I open them up side by side with a shot of mine and think how I might incorporate some of your tricks. 

I do enjoy seeing the way you are able to rotate in and out species. That is a very nice luxury to have. Makes me think I might have to set up a grow out tank of my own sometime.

And of course, very much looking forward to the next rendition and seeing what you come up with.


----------



## Triport

Woah. That Crypt is crazy. I got the same plants TC from Aqua Forest but they are still very small. Slow growing so far. They are just green at the moment and only a few inches tall.


----------



## burr740

Triport said:


> Woah. That Crypt is crazy. I got the same plants TC from Aqua Forest but they are still very small. Slow growing so far. They are just green at the moment and only a few inches tall.


Interesting! I wasnt aware it was in the hobby yet. Mine doesnt really have those striations. I wonder if there's a difference between red tiger and just tiger.


----------



## Triport

Not sure but on the web site they list it as C. spiralis 'Tiger' and on the packing slip it was listed as just C. spiralis 'Red'. I've learned to not really trust the names that aquatic plants are sold under.


----------



## burr740

Triport said:


> Not sure but on the web site they list it as C. spiralis 'Tiger' and on the packing slip it was listed as just C. spiralis 'Red'. I've learned to not really trust the names that aquatic plants are sold under.


Yeah there's probably a very good chance its the same plant.


----------



## Triport

I'll let you know in about 6 months when it finally starts to put on some growth!


----------



## MCFC

I've always read that you shouldn't dose NPK and micros on the same day. Something about them interacting and an insoluble precipitate forming. Are you able to dose your micros daily because you're rolling your own or is there something else I'm missing? I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but at 50+ pages it's easy to miss a thing or two !


----------



## burr740

MCFC said:


> I've always read that you shouldn't dose NPK and micros on the same day. Something about them interacting and an insoluble precipitate forming. Are you able to dose your micros daily because you're rolling your own or is there something else I'm missing? I'm sorry if this has already been discussed, but at 50+ pages it's easy to miss a thing or two !


Its not a big deal dosing both on the same day. PPS-P folks have been doing it for years. 

The main thing to avoid is putting them both in the same solution (dosing bottle) P specifically


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Its not a big deal dosing both on the same day. PPS-P folks have been doing it for years.
> 
> The main thing to avoid is putting them both in the same solution (dosing bottle) P specifically


Yeah like Burr said, quite a few have busted that myth I think. 

I'm also been dosing micros daily for quite some time now (15 weeks). And I am also dosing all my macros in just two doses. 

You also hear about water change day being a day of rest. I know of several successful plant keepers who actually dose an extra large dose right after a water change, kind of jump starting the system.

The point is there are no hard and fast rules for dosing. I've seen lots of methods work.


----------



## Bogey

It's just getting better and better! I'm loving the changes!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## ChrisX

burr740 said:


> Im still very much trying to learn how to create depth and scale while not using too many species according Dutch guidelines. This 4' tank should have no more than 12-14 total species. For me this is a big challenge to say the least.



This tank is amazing. IMO, the moss(?) growing on the sides and back make the tank claustrophobic compared to what it was originally. Isnt it harder to create contrast against green than solid black? Is carpeted sides and back common in dutch?

Also.. is your success with plain sand substrate because of exceptional lighting? Would you advise sand substrate for medium light high tech?


----------



## elusive77

Greggz said:


> Yeah like Burr said, quite a few have busted that myth I think.
> 
> I'm also been dosing micros daily for quite some time now (15 weeks). And I am also dosing all my macros in just two doses.
> 
> You also hear about water change day being a day of rest. I know of several successful plant keepers who actually dose an extra large dose right after a water change, kind of jump starting the system.
> 
> The point is there are no hard and fast rules for dosing. I've seen lots of methods work.


Just thinking here...... but is there any reason not to dose Macros every day as well? Would there be any benefit to that? Same weekly total just split up into smaller doses. It seems like it helps with the micros to have more consistent concentrations, so it wouldn't it be the same for macros?


----------



## Phil Edwards

elusive77 said:


> Just thinking here...... but is there any reason not to dose Macros every day as well? Would there be any benefit to that? Same weekly total just split up into smaller doses. It seems like it helps with the micros to have more consistent concentrations, so it wouldn't it be the same for macros?


Plants do better in environments with higher concentrations of macros vs. lower concentrations. It's better to add high doses less frequently than small doses frequently. That helps to maintain a higher concentration during the fertilization cycle. 

Regards,
Phil


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Well its only been one 2x dose after the water change, just since we talked the other day. But things were definitely loving the 1.5x, and now 2x seems even better.


And who was giving me crap about dosing high a year ago, hmmm?


----------



## elusive77

Phil Edwards said:


> Plants do better in environments with higher concentrations of macros vs. lower concentrations. It's better to add high doses less frequently than small doses frequently. That helps to maintain a higher concentration during the fertilization cycle.
> 
> Regards,
> Phil



That makes sense. A higher concentration means more available and around all the individual plants, so it's easier for them uptake as much as they need. It just seems like it would drop off quite a bit over the time in between doses, so the plants wouldn't do as well on the 2nd day. And is this different for micros? Would it be better to use higher doses there too? Just curious. We've been questioning a lot of the long held practices and methods lately, so I've been thinking about it.


----------



## dukydaf

Phil Edwards said:


> Plants do better in environments with higher concentrations of macros vs. lower concentrations.


No debate here. 



Phil Edwards said:


> It's better to add high doses less frequently than small doses frequently. That helps to maintain a *higher concentration during the fertilization cycle*.


Well by the same though process, adding all the macros one time after the water change would produce the best result as it maintains the highest concentration during the fertilization cycle. Would you recommend that ?

I plotted this graph to better show my view. I also worked some weekly uptake (10ppm). As you say plants do better at high doses it also means that the uptake is also greater when there is more , so I made a supposition that uptake starts at 3. As plants grow and run out of space, light, flow, lower macro levels the uptake slows to 0.5. So throughout the week you have an uptake of 3,2,1.5,1.5, 1,0.5,0.5. I kept this uptake for all the dosing styles. As such the graphs may be a little more biased, showing lower levels with smaller initial dosing.

Curious on your thoughts ? Also interested if you have some quantitative data showing the effects different styles of fertilizing.


----------



## ChrisX

Obviously, the best thing to do would be a large dose right after the water change, and replacement levels throughout the week. 

My new idea is to get dosing pumps and set them to daily dose at replacement level (maybe 3ppm). Only manually adding fertz on water change, and doing this based on *actual* measurements. This would make it very easy to increase/decrease dose in small increments.

The danger of auto dosing full EI doses is if you forget to do a weekly water change.

It may be that consistency is more important than the actual levels. Just like consistency of light.

Also. if dosing at replacement levels, one wouldnt "need" to do weekly WC.


----------



## ipkiss

ChrisX said:


> Also. if dosing at replacement levels, one wouldnt "need" to do weekly WC.


Shush, you heathen. Now you're talking PPS... >


----------



## Phil Edwards

Unfortunately my quantitative data is three hours away and I won't be able to get to it for a month and a half. What I/we do have here is a forum and many other planted tank groups full of enough anecdotal evidence regarding frequent dosing at high concentrations that I'm comfortable standing by what I said. 

No, I wouldn't advocate dosing an entire cycle's worth of chemicals all at once. Maintaining a high concentration throughout the cycle can take a couple forms. For me, it's dosing to a desired concentration, say 15ppm NO3 after a water change then every other day after prior to the next water change. That would be Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat, WC on Sun and repeat. 

Or, you could also do it like I'm currently doing it with my tank which is in "stasis" mode with just low light tolerant plants, low light and a short photoperiod. WC on Mon, dose 7.5ppm NO3, dose again on W and F with no fertilization between Friday evening and Monday evening to draw everything down. Again, that's only due to the tank as a whole being put into low metabolism and low growth mode. Even so, 7.5ppm 3x/wk is a substantial amount of NO3 given the circumstances.

Bump:


ChrisX said:


> Also. if dosing at replacement levels, one wouldnt "need" to do weekly WC.


I disagree. Weekly water changes are important for removing organic byproducts and the overall health of the tank. 

Go talk to Edward about maintaining specific levels of nutrients throughout a given time. He's got it down pat.  \

Regards,
Phil

Bump:


elusive77 said:


> It just seems like it would drop off quite a bit over the time in between doses, so the plants wouldn't do as well on the 2nd day.


That's certainly a possibility. If you dose enough that the plant will have easy access on any given day then it's not of particular concern (EI dosing). Also, dosing enough that the plant can take up more than it needs for a given day (which they do when able) then they can use some of the extra stored stuff to get by when the concentrations are lower. The whole point of dosing every other day is to avoid dropping concentrations too much for too long that the plants' stores are used up. 



elusive77 said:


> And is this different for micros? Would it be better to use higher doses there too? Just curious. We've been questioning a lot of the long held practices and methods lately, so I've been thinking about it.


You'll have to talk to the micro experts here. I'm a heathen that uses CSM+B and doses it only once or twice a week. Though I may start dosing more frequently in the future.

Regards,
Phil


----------



## dukydaf

ChrisX said:


> Obviously, the best thing to do would be a large dose right after the water change, and replacement levels throughout the week.
> 
> My new idea is to get dosing pumps and set them to daily dose at replacement level (maybe 3ppm). Only manually adding fertz on water change, and doing this based on *actual* measurements. This would make it very easy to increase/decrease dose in small increments.
> 
> The danger of auto dosing full EI doses is if you forget to do a weekly water change.
> 
> It may be that consistency is more important than the actual levels. Just like consistency of light.
> 
> Also. if dosing at replacement levels, one wouldnt "need" to do weekly WC.


Well, yes but you have 4 main problems here: 
1. You need to be able to measure daily uptake levels (for all the nutrients, but lets limit ourselves to NO3 here) with enough precision so as to determine your dose.This cannot be done economically at the moment. Test kits are mostly to be used like low, some , a lot. Quantification on such kits is a joke. Sending water samples to testing is too expensive. And yes I know PPS says to use the TDS meter to determine if you need to add more or less... I feel I do not need to explain again why this does not work if you actually want a flat NO3 level. Maybe in a solution of only H2O K and NO3, in our aquariums... no chance. More below.
2. You need to control ALL nutrient resources. Most have fish and substrates. Feed a little more, you get a spike. Disturb the substrate you get a spike. Clean the filter you get a dip. All these result in ... inconsistent water values
3. Plant uptake varies from day to day and even averages greatly vary from week to week.You cannot estimate based on weekly uptake as no two days may be the same (arguments above). Estimating will without doubt lead to daily variations and ultimately to a graph looking more like EI
4. Consistency is all a matter of scale. Look at the graph above over 2 years at the same dimension and you will see things plateau at 40 and stay there consistently. Say you get daily consistent values, look at the hour level and you will get peaks and dips. The question then is ... how much variation can plants take without any problems is it 1ppm, 5ppm, 20 ppm ? And are we interested in actual ppm or in %? 15to5 vs 50to40 (10ppm drop) ? or 2to1 vs 40to20 (50%drop)? And here is where we need actual quantitative data to answer. What difference makes a difference? This is why I asked for such data. 

As for the no need to WC:









Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> Unfortunately my quantitative data is three hours away and I won't be able to get to it for a month and a half.


That's alright. I think many will agree that seeing such data is worth the wait. 



Phil Edwards said:


> No, I wouldn't advocate dosing an entire cycle's worth of chemicals all at once.


Well, why not ? With the same weekly dose, I see this type of dosing resulting in keeping the plants at higher levels for many more days than any other division of the dose. Or am I missing something ?



Phil Edwards said:


> Or, you could also do it like I'm currently doing it ... WC on Mon, dose 7.5ppm NO3, dose again on W and F with no fertilization between Friday evening and Monday evening to draw everything down... Even so, 7.5ppm 3x/wk is a substantial amount of NO3 given the circumstances.


So basically EI as described originally but with a wc on monday instead of sunday. Yes that works for me and for many. The question is if there is a better way and if it makes enough of a difference to notice.

Looking forward to that data.


----------



## burr740

ChrisX said:


> This tank is amazing. IMO, the moss(?) growing on the sides and back make the tank claustrophobic compared to what it was originally. Isnt it harder to create contrast against green than solid black? Is carpeted sides and back common in dutch?


The moss changed the game for sure. Yes, one of the official rules for Dutch style is planted back and sides.

To me, contrast was better with the black background. It was like the sides and back didnt exist. Now with the walls planted they are part of the equation too.

However I can say that mossing the back and sides improved "depth" a lot. First time I stepped back and looked after doing the back it was like WOAH! I should've done this a long time ago.

I'd say the current claustrophbic look has more to do with my lack of scaping skills than anything. 

The main thing I dont like about the moss walls is all that green changed how various light looks. I havent been able to get a combo I really like since. Something about how all that green reflects...



ChrisX said:


> Also.. is your success with plain sand substrate because of exceptional lighting? Would you advise sand substrate for medium light high tech?


Plants can grow just fine in sand or plain gravel if the water column is dosed properly. Of course what amounts to properly for one tank may not cut it in another. That will depend on type of plants and how much light, co2, etc.

But no, the light here isnt overcoming some weakness in the substrate

I like sand because it's clean. It doesnt kick up a dust storm every time you move something.

It's extremely easy to work with. Tiny or buoyant plants stay planted

I also like that it doesnt alter water parameters, or add or subtract anything from it.

The disadvantage is you better nail dosing the water column because things are entirely dependent on that. Which is not very difficult imo, more than worth the trade off


----------



## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> And who was giving me crap about dosing high a year ago, hmmm?


High?? You were dosing like 10 ppms for micros and 108-fitty macros

Somebody needed to slap some sense into you!


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> High?? You were dosing like 10 ppms for micros and 108-fitty macros
> 
> Somebody needed to slap some sense into you!


So, what I would like to know is "why" is there only a LIKE button? Why can't there be a LMAO button as well?


----------



## Phil Edwards

Immortal1 said:


> So, what I would like to know is "why" is there only a LIKE button? Why can't there be a LMAO button as well?


Because you can type LMAO, you LAMO.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> High?? You were dosing like 10 ppms for micros and 108-fitty macros
> 
> Somebody needed to slap some sense into you!


It was only 45ppm NO3 and 6ppm PO4. I don't *think* I got any higher than that.....


----------



## Greggz

Phil Edwards said:


> Because you can type LMAO, you LAMO.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> It was only 45ppm NO3 and 6ppm PO4. I don't *think* I got any higher than that.....


Hmmmm.......tame by my standards......but I am trying to change my ways!!:laugh2:


----------



## burr740

Small update, not much to report

Trimmed the two side walls. They grow a lot faster than the back. This is what I trimmed off ONE side





























Hungry fishes











Need to clean up those roots around the base of the crypt. It's already sprouted a couple babies.

Bare log soaking in the background, gonna make a longer run of Fissidens going front to back ascending somehow











Rotala sunset is growing nice. This is all from those 4 original stems. So far havent touched them. Its about time to cut them all apart and make a proper group. That'll be the real test whether its happy or not

Can see some brown undergrowth where the moss was trimmed. That'll green back up in a week or two.











Rotala macranda variegated doing well in the 50










Some of those in the back are coming off tall stumps where I had to pinch a few bad tops off










Oto chillin


----------



## Greggz

Burr the R. Macrandra V. is looking very, very happy. As is the Sunset. I tried it once a while back, but didn't have much luck with it. Might have to try it again someday, as that is one good looking plant when it's happy like that.

And I really like that Crypt as well. When you get enough going, put me on the list to get some. 

P.S. A $20 next to the moss????? I expected to see a crisp C Note there from a plant baller like you!!!:wink2::wink2:


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr the R. Macrandra V. is looking very, very happy. As is the Sunset. I tried it once a while back, but didn't have much luck with it. Might have to try it again someday, as that is one good looking plant when it's happy like that.
> 
> And I really like that Crypt as well. When you get enough going, put me on the list to get some.
> 
> P.S. A $20 next to the moss????? I expected to see a crisp C Note there from a plant baller like you!!!:wink2::wink2:


Maybe I can come up with a C note next time when these two piles of moss sell on fb 

Current dosing if anyone is interested:

Macros are 6 ppm KNO3, .5 ppm KH2PO4, and 2 ppm K2SO4. Doing a 3x dose after water change, then two more single doses through the week.

Micros are daily .15 Fe from the latest custom blend

Weekly totals:

NO3 - 30 ppm (18 ppm after water change)
P - 2.5 ppm (1.5 after water change)
K - 36 ppm (24.5 after water change)
Fe - 1.05 ppm

Ca - 35 ppm
Mg - 10 ppm

SO4 - about 22 ppm (7 from tap +15 from ferts)


----------



## Immortal1

"Current dosing if anyone is interested:" - yes, I am. Been having some issues with various plants. Knowing your running more light than me and possibly more plant mass per gallon of water, it would make sense your weekly consumption of "food" would be greater for your tank than mine. With that said, I likely should adjust my weekly macro totals down a bit, and give daily micro dosing a try.
Today is water change day, so sounds like a good time to try something else 

Curious, are you adding Ca - 35ppm and Mg - 10ppm after water change to your existing tap water (assume it already has some)?
My tap is 11-12 dGH and I usually get 50+ Ca when I test the tank water after a water change. But, like I said, I also seem to be having some issues that look Ca related.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Curious, are you adding Ca - 35ppm and Mg - 10ppm after water change to your existing tap water (assume it already has some)?
> My tap is 11-12 dGH and I usually get 50+ Ca when I test the tank water after a water change. But, like I said, I also seem to be having some issues that look Ca related.


My tap has about 35 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg. (confirmed by water report and also having it tested) I add another 6 ppm MgSO4 after water change, no extra Ca

One way to check for Ca is just add some and see if it helps. From what Ive seen other's report its a pretty quick fix, so you'll know right away if it helps or not.

Personally I doubt you need any more Ca. Fe and some other micros can cause similar symptoms. Increasing micros to daily or 4-5x per week might do the trick


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> My tap has about 35 ppm Ca and 4 ppm Mg. (confirmed by water report and also having it tested) I add another 6 ppm MgSO4 after water change, no extra Ca
> 
> One way to check for Ca is just add some and see if it helps. From what Ive seen other's report its a pretty quick fix, so you'll know right away if it helps or not.
> 
> Personally I doubt you need any more Ca. Fe and some other micros can cause similar symptoms. Increasing micros to daily or 4-5x per week might do the trick


Logically I think you are correct on the Ca - my tap MUST have more Ca than what those running RO water are dosing. Assuming I add enough Mg to keep a "rough" 3:1 ratio I should be fine.
As for the increase in micros - thats easy to try and given the knowledge of some on this forum, should be easy to spot if things are going right or wrong.


----------



## sdwindansea

That moss wall is really impressive and looks fantastic. You should be thankful you do not have any shrimp in that tank. Otherwise you would probably be discarding several hundred of them in that batch. I still never figured out a good way to trim/pull out the moss without finding it all over the tank several days later.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Maybe I can come up with a C note next time when these two piles of moss sell on fb
> 
> Current dosing if anyone is interested:
> 
> Macros are 6 ppm KNO3, .5 ppm KH2PO4, and 2 ppm K2SO4. Doing a 3x dose after water change, then two more single doses through the week.
> 
> Micros are daily .15 Fe from the latest custom blend
> 
> Weekly totals:
> 
> NO3 - 30 ppm (18 ppm after water change)
> P - 2.5 ppm (1.5 after water change)
> K - 36 ppm (24.5 after water change)
> Fe - 1.05 ppm
> 
> Ca - 35 ppm
> Mg - 10 ppm
> 
> SO4 - about 22 ppm (7 from tap +15 from ferts)


would you happen to remember what your tap NO3 and P were?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> would you happen to remember what your tap NO3 and P were?


NO3 - 1.05 ppm
P - < .05 ppm

Na - 1.79 ppm
Cl - 9.14 ppm
SO4 - 7.65 ppm


----------



## Patriot

Nice work!! I love the colors!


----------



## burr740

Finally trimmed the Rotala sunset. Got 35 and change off those 4 original plants.

Now lets see if they live. This plant has gone through periods where its absolutely bulletproof and periods of dying if you look at it wrong.

Im hopeful. They were good all the way to the ground. No dropped leaves, stems were very strong and even the very bottom leaves were firmly attached. 

We're about to find out so grab some popcorn!


----------



## kamla

JUST BEAUTIFUL !!

do you use root tabs, or dose the water?


Thax


----------



## burr740

kamla said:


> JUST BEAUTIFUL !!
> 
> do you use root tabs, or dose the water?
> 
> 
> Thax


Occasionally use single balls of Osmocote Plus under some things. Otherwise its entirely water column ferts


----------



## ipkiss

burr740 said:


>



This. This spikey mermaid weed? I've been chasing that green spikey look. Which form is that? Or is that its cousin? P. Pectinata? 

http://www.wildsouthflorida.com/mermaid.weed.html#.WsjO9


----------



## burr740

ipkiss said:


> This. This spikey mermaid weed? I've been chasing that green spikey look. Which form is that? Or is that its cousin? P. Pectinata?
> 
> Mermaid Weed


Mine is Proserpinaca palustris

Those are young shoots which start out spikey but turn into this



















Color can range from yellow to deep orange depending on light and ferts. It is very responsive to growing conditions, changes color and leaf shape fast and can look many different ways.

It used to stay spikey when I was dosing extremely low micros/Fe, you'd think it was a totally different plant. But it was never entirely happy

Here is some older pics in various states











Low macros and micros










A little too starved for macros (NO3) see the green centers











Going to hell from high levels of csmb


----------



## ipkiss

huh... interesting. so I was actually chasing an 'unhealthy' look. read elsewhere that it's supposed to get more spikey with MORE lighting, but I guess that was only part of the story. Glad that you've definitively documented all the different conditions so now I don't have to chase my tail....


----------



## Phil Edwards

ipkiss said:


> huh... interesting. so I was actually chasing an 'unhealthy' look. read elsewhere that it's supposed to get more spikey with MORE lighting, but I guess that was only part of the story. Glad that you've definitively documented all the different conditions so now I don't have to chase my tail....


Healthy polymorphic plants can look different in different tanks. Don't chase too hard.


----------



## burr740

ipkiss said:


> huh... interesting. so I was actually chasing an 'unhealthy' look. read elsewhere that it's supposed to get more spikey with MORE lighting, but I guess that was only part of the story. Glad that you've definitively documented all the different conditions so now I don't have to chase my tail....


It may very well get spikier under more light. Mine has been under about 90 PAR for the past couple of years. Some of those earlier pics were under about 125, it's not been in the big tank since then. It can look many different ways, changes fast too.


----------



## Immortal1

I too appreciate all the various pictures you have documenting the different variations of this interesting plant!


----------



## burr740

Goodnight sweet prince


----------



## Daniil

Oh, no.
I am sorry to see that.
I had that happened to my thank in the past. It's not fun.


----------



## vanish

Oh dear!


----------



## oval291

Ia tank leaking?


----------



## kaldurak

Good luck. I'm sweating bullets over here with my Spec V leaking soon after I finished moving. I have a 10g set up loaded with media and sponge and plants and rocks from the Spec V praying for it to cycle faster.

The 10 has pool filter sand with some osmocote+ down at the glass. the Spec has/had eco complete. This will be my first inert substrate tank.

Now I am just praying to the Cycle God's for the 10g to hurry up and eat all the ammonia. (And doing daily partial water changes so my chili rasboras stay alive - I hate fish in cycling, but I hate emergency cycling even more.)


----------



## Greggz

Burr you know I feel your pain more than most, having recently went through this exact same thing.

Makes me very concerned. My tank was only about 2 years old, and yours I think maybe even less. 

I hope you are getting it sorted out and can save as much as you can. 

Have you found a replacement tank yet? 

I know what you are going through, and it ain't no picnic. Loads of work. 

Get some fans and start blowing the floor. I went out and bought 4 box fans and ran them for a week. That moisture can wreak havoc on wood floors. I was lucky, my water found a pretty direct down right behind the tank, and no permanent damage. I hope you are as lucky as well my friend.

Geez I hate to see this. Keep us posted.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Sorry Joe. What a bummer. :frown2:


----------



## Immortal1

Wow, sorry to see this. Amazing that this can happen to younger tanks (i.e. less than 20 years old).
Best of luck in getting things back to normal.


----------



## elusive77

Oh wow.....that's awful. Good luck getting everything sorted out.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Thanks for the well wishes guys. Yeah I came home last night to the sound of filters gurgling. WTF? Go in the living room and see water pouring out the bottom of the tank. It'd already drained about 6". Could've been a lot worse, but

Fuuuuuuuuu

Long story short I had to get a new tank. Wound up just going with a 75 gallon. 4' is about all the space I have without a major rearranging. I didnt trust another Marineland, especially since the same thing happened to Greggz' tank last year. This one was built Aug 2015, been set up about a year and a half

In some ways Im going to enjoy a smaller tank. In other ways it kinda sucks, but here we are.

Here's the final pics from last night when sh*t was going down

Sunsets were doing well after the trim, didnt loose a single stem











Rotala mac variegated, Ludwigia polycarpa in front











Final glimpse of the layout, which I was really starting to dig for the first time lately











Should have the new tank up and running by late tomorrow. Hardwood floors took a beating but everything is dry now, no carpet or rugs thank goodness.

Painted the back and sides when I got home. Gonna use the same filters, reactor and substrate. Ordered a new 4 bulb light, will make do with the 6 bulb in the meantime

Guess I'll keep this thread going and just update the title or something. Stay tuned!


----------



## Triport

So sorry about that. What a nightmare.


----------



## ipkiss

oh man .. so sorry.  Do larger tanks leak easier or is it just shoddy workmanship?


----------



## Immortal1

ipkiss said:


> oh man .. so sorry.  Do larger tanks leak easier or is it just shoddy workmanship?


Really hard to say. From an engineering standpoint there is more water pressure on the seams as tanks get bigger. The seams are also bigger to help account for the additional pressure.
In the case of Marineland tanks, like the 75g I have, they use black silicone. It looks nice but from my experience building my own tank with clear silicone, it was a lot easier to see bubble flaws in the joint with clear silicone. 
So, does black silicone present an added risk of leaking due to not being able to see good seems? 

Happy to hear you have a new tank Joe! Sorry to hear you are back to a smaller tank. Then again, you are back to the same size tank I have so I will be paying a lot more attention to your layouts :grin2:


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Rip 120 😞

Are there any imperfections in the stand you're using? 

On the bright side you have 2 48" x 24" spare glass panels in case you ever wanna diy a 48" x 48" x 24" tank


----------



## Chlorophile

Immortal1 said:


> ipkiss said:
> 
> 
> 
> oh man .. so sorry.  Do larger tanks leak easier or is it just shoddy workmanship?
> 
> 
> 
> Really hard to say. From an engineering standpoint there is more water pressure on the seams as tanks get bigger. The seams are also bigger to help account for the additional pressure.
> In the case of Marineland tanks, like the 75g I have, they use black silicone. It looks nice but from my experience building my own tank with clear silicone, it was a lot easier to see bubble flaws in the joint with clear silicone.
> So, does black silicone present an added risk of leaking due to not being able to see good seems?
> 
> Happy to hear you have a new tank Joe! Sorry to hear you are back to a smaller tank. Then again, you are back to the same size tank I have so I will be paying a lot more attention to your layouts
Click to expand...

The most common place for a leak is the bottom center.
The silicone is pretty strong, but pressure bows the front glass and so the center is under much more strain than the corners...
Longer tanks need thicker glass to compensate or center braces.
My two rimless tanks are 3 and 9 years old, no leakage, but the glass is thicker than average.

But of course like you mentioned, bubbles and other issues can do it anywhere in the tank
@burr740
Interested to see how you get everything fitting in the smaller tank/how much you remove thin etc.
I feel like the hardest part of Dutch is simplicity.. I've got like 14 species in 33 gallons and... Well they all grow quickly


----------



## sdwindansea

So sorry you had to go through all that but really happy you didn't come home to a dry tank as well.

However, it does make me angry that your emergency setup looks better than anything I could ever hope to accomplish in a planted tank :wink2:.


----------



## smishgibson

Man I have to reiterate the others on this, so glad you didn't come home to a dry tank. Sounds like it wasn't super far from it. I'm glad you didn't throw in the towel, I know I would have been temped if my tank looked that good, but I had a leak.

Such an incredible looking tank. I can't wait for updates on the 75. The results you are getting really convinces me to give BDBS a shot. I was worried going inert just wouldn't get me the results I wanted. Looks like keeping the water column right makes up for it and then some.


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Are there any imperfections in the stand you're using?


Dont know, had it on the Marineland stand that came with it. You have to use their stands or it voids the warranty. I got in touch with Marineland and they are supposed to be sending me a refund for the price of the tank.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Dont know, had it on the Marineland stand that came with it. You have to use their stands or it voids the warranty. I got in touch with Marineland and they are supposed to be sending me a refund for the price of the tank.


Mine was on my own DIY stand. Funny thing they never even asked about it, and it was clearly in the pictures. Personally I doubt the stand has anything to do with it, but who knows??

Your experience did give me a greater sense of urgency to reseal my old tank. They told me to keep it, and I'm going to seal the heck out of the bottom and have it ready just in case (if I can resist the urge to set it up for a more "Dutch" presentation!).

And like I said in PM to you, you might consider resealing that tank and you'd be back in a 120G. Just a thought.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Holy hell... I'm so sorry!! I don't even know what else to say. Do you need replacement plants?


----------



## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> Holy hell... I'm so sorry!! I don't even know what else to say. Do you need replacement plants?


Thanks man. All the plant should be fine. What wouldnt fit temporarily in my other tanks I just bagged up. Thanks a lot for the offer though 

Got the new 75 up and running today, replanting tonight 

Blank canvas!


----------



## RLee

burr740 said:


> Thanks man. All the plant should be fine. What wouldnt fit temporarily in my other tanks I just bagged up. Thanks a lot for the offer though
> 
> Got the new 75 up and running today, replanting tonight
> 
> Blank canvas!


Don't tell me that's another Marineland! We are lucky out in CA. Advance Aqua Tanks is based here. I have never had a issue with Visio glass tanks. Might be tough to find there.
Serves you right though, rubbing our noses in the fact that our tanks will never be as good as yours. Karma :wink2:


----------



## LRJ

Damn, dude. So sorry to see this.


----------



## vijay_06

Feel sorry for this. I wish no one goes through such a nightmare.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy

@burr740 don't you owe us an update with a pic??? >


----------



## vvDO

Maryland Guppy said:


> @burr740 don't you owe us an update with a pic??? >




He’s probably all scaped out!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

So yeah I basically just put everything back like it was in the 120. Too much going on to think much about a the layout. Obviously several things here arent going to work but Im gonna mull it over for a couple of weeks while everything settles in.

Here's 4 am Sat morning when I finally finished. Everything is curled up and angry after two days floating or stuck in a bag. 










The back moss panels snapped right in place, they just go further down now. The sides had to be re-sized.

These sunsets are temporarily screwed, dammit. How they looked first planted -










Should've taken more care to wrap them in a paper towel so they wouldnt curl so bad. Or better yet bunch them together with a lead weight and float them upright in another tank. But since I was ankle deep in water playing musical buckets at the time, it wasnt exactly top of the list

Currently










It's looking like maybe half arent going to straighten up and recover. The plant will abandon the main top and start making side shoots. Which is fine just means a delay in having nice ones. Sucks though because they were all prime specimens, like these in the 50 










Today, side panels fixed. Most everything seems to be getting with the program










Gotta reinstall the trim pieces on the sides and along the bottom. They just stick on with double sided tape. Hides the moss wall edges in front and gives a more framed out Dutch feel.










Fissidens got a fresh mowing last week is why it looks so rough atm. Also added another log behind it



















Already liking the shorter tank, so much easier to reach everything. Also gonna enjoy dealing with 12-16" tall stems instead of 2 footers. Less front to back space will be a challenge creating depth. But I was having trouble in that department with the big tank anyway. I think shorter height might actually compensate a little if I can just hone my skills better


----------



## Immortal1

Nice to see things are getting, well sorta, back to normal. How did the floor fair after all that water? Hopefully you were able to dry it out.
Pretty nice you were able to keep the moss walls. Was wondering what that piece was on one of your leaking tank photos - now I know, Trim piece to cover the front edges of the moss wall. Very clever.

Re-did one of our Betta tanks today using BDBS... Wow, why didn't I go that route instead of the Eco Complete!!! Doesn't take much effort to get small plants to stay put. Have always liked the sparkly black substrate in yours and Gregg's tank - makes for some really nice photos.


----------



## OreoP

Just saw this .... feel your pain but looking forward to your rebuild. Always appreciate your very educational posts!!


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Nice to see things are getting, well sorta, back to normal. How did the floor fair after all that water? Hopefully you were able to dry it out.
> Pretty nice you were able to keep the moss walls. Was wondering what that piece was on one of your leaking tank photos - now I know, Trim piece to cover the front edges of the moss wall. Very clever.
> 
> Re-did one of our Betta tanks today using BDBS... Wow, why didn't I go that route instead of the Eco Complete!!! Doesn't take much effort to get small plants to stay put. Have always liked the sparkly black substrate in yours and Gregg's tank - makes for some really nice photos.


The hardwood floor suffered some minor discoloration, a little darkening at the joints but that's about it. Not a big deal. Thankfully it didnt buck up or anything like that. 

Marineland will cover damages but Im not going to bother trying to fix it. They're covering the tank and stand, which started to separate in a couple places from all that water.


----------



## Immortal1

If there stand has any amount of particle board in it than I can certainly understand replacing that. Good to hear they are covering costs! My monstrosity of a stand could probably be thrown in a lake for a few days and still be structurally ok, LOL.

I have hard wood floors as well (late 1960's narrow board oak). They are also darkening a bit at the edges but doesn't really bother me much. One of these days I will get the tools out and re-finish the hardwood and seal the holy #[email protected]% out of it.... someday ;-)


----------



## Greggz

Hey Burr glad to see you got everything planted again. I don't think things look too bad considering what the tank has been through. Still looks better than most.

Hopefully a good amount of the sunset will straighten up. You did have it looking about as good as I have seen it.

And interestingly, as first glance I wouldn't even know it's a smaller tank. Expect it to be back to it's former glory before you know it. Amazing what a few days of reaching for the light can do.


----------



## Williak

Whoa. Damn man. Sorry to see what occurred, but happy for you that it wasn't a catastrophic loss.

Sometimes it does feel nice to downsize a bit. Look forward to seeing the 75 at its prime soon


----------



## ChrisX

Greggz said:


> Burr you know I feel your pain more than most, having recently went through this exact same thing.
> 
> Makes me very concerned. My tank was only about 2 years old, and yours I think maybe even less.
> 
> I hope you are getting it sorted out and can save as much as you can.
> 
> Have you found a replacement tank yet?
> 
> I know what you are going through, and it ain't no picnic. Loads of work.
> 
> Get some fans and start blowing the floor. I went out and bought 4 box fans and ran them for a week. That moisture can wreak havoc on wood floors. I was lucky, my water found a pretty direct down right behind the tank, and no permanent damage. I hope you are as lucky as well my friend.
> 
> Geez I hate to see this. Keep us posted.


Better solution than box fans, go to Home Depot and get a rental carpet cleaner. It will suck all the water from the carpet. (Then use fans.) If there was severe flooding, instead of pulling up the carpet, you can cut slits in the carpet and use a shop vac to blow air under the carpet. Do this for up to a week.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> The hardwood floor suffered some minor discoloration, a little darkening at the joints but that's about it. Not a big deal. Thankfully it didnt buck up or anything like that.
> 
> Marineland will cover damages but Im not going to bother trying to fix it. They're covering the tank and stand, which started to separate in a couple places from all that water.


Did you set up the new tank in the same place? I wonder if tanks leaking is because the floor settles over time and its no longer level?


----------



## burr740

Probably gonna make a new journal for this tank. Here is a quick update in the meantime

Sunsets totally proved me wrong. After a couple days they all straightened up and took off. Its hard to tell in the pic, the shortest ones in front here are about 6" tall










Needed to reroute their group a little bit, and also the Erio vietnams so I just went ahead and gave them a good whacking



















Right side:










Propagating more Ambulia atm so it's kinda butchered. Tossed a little more than I should have during the whole leak thing. 

Added some Hydrocotyle tripartita japan in the front corner. Its tied to a couple stainless steel mesh pieces and then a log. We'll see how that turns out.










Ludwigia polycarpa growing pretty nice. So far Ive been having to keep it short or it starts to lean pretty bad. It's cousin L. sphaerocarpa used to do the same thing

Helanthium quadricostatus I got from @Greggz maybe 3 weeks ago. So far it's kinda just sitting there. The existing leaves are still withered up and seem to be slowly degrading. But there's some new growth coming in. Hopefully it does fine because it'd be the perfect size for a big-leaved green I need right here. 



















Ludwigia red group will eventually be bigger. There's so many other reds, it needs to really stand out as the focal point right there

On the tentative chopping block:

Clinopodium brownei, great plant but doesnt really work right here. Its too similar in structure to the Acmella in back. And there's too many "straight up" species in this general area. Needs a little chaos in front I think

Pogo kimberly is too similar in color to B colorata and also the wallichii, thinking something else might look better

Helanthium bolivianum Angustifolia, tall grass in the back, may have to switch back to Isoetes. I like the laying over the surface but the shadow from the (very wide) centerpiece annoys me

Lud polycarpa, just trying it out atm, lots of options for right there

Will know more when everything fills in and gains some height


----------



## Greggz

Great update Joe!

Good news with the Sunset, that's an impressive rebound. Amazing what a few days reaching for the light can do.

I'm sure the Helanthium quadricostatus will get going for you, then look out. It wants to propogate. Probably feels starved since it was mainly grown my extra rich macro soup!! 

But seriously, it is interesting how plants from other tanks sometimes take some time to settle in. I remember when I got the Macranda Var. from you. I swear it sat there for a month and didn't look like it changed a bit. Then it got going and has been a great grower ever since. Same with Pantanal. Almost threw it out at one point, then suddenly it started growing.

And it really is amazing, the tank doesn't "seem" any smaller in the pics. Still looks just as impressive, and I'm sure will continue to get even better!


----------



## Phil Edwards

That's a great comeback! You going to be competing again this year?


----------



## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> That's a great comeback! You going to be competing again this year?


Thanks Phil. 

That's the plan if all goes well. Main thing Im trying to do is improve on some of the short comings of last years entry.

At first I was really bummed at the thought of going back to a 75 with less front to back space than the 120. But the shorter height is proving to be an advantage, at least for my current skill level.

Its easier to make the tank look full without having to grow the plants so tall, and shorter stems are much easier to deal with from a maintenance standpoint


----------



## Triport

That is good to know. I was thinking of upgrading my 40 breeder high tech tank to a larger size when I move and 75 was one of the things I was considering. Not crazy about having to reach my arm into deeper tanks to scape.


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Thanks Phil.
> 
> That's the plan if all goes well. Main thing Im trying to do is improve on some of the short comings of last years entry.
> 
> At first I was really bummed at the thought of going back to a 75 with less front to back space than the 120. But the shorter height is proving to be an advantage, at least for my current skill level.
> 
> Its easier to make the tank look full without having to grow the plants so tall, and shorter stems are much easier to deal with from a maintenance standpoint


Yeah, 75s are probably the best 48" tank for Dutch scaping; the dimensions are good. I think you'll get a better sense of length with this than you did with the 120 and that will help a lot. I'm pretty sure I won't be judging this year so if you want to chat about scaping etc, hit me up.


----------



## oval291

How do you find the Hydor 600 on the 75 gallon? I plan to setup a new 75 gallon planted tank shortly and I have a Eheim 2217 that I plan to use but was also looking at Hydor. Some of the reviews said it was difficult to clean.


----------



## burr740

Triport said:


> That is good to know. I was thinking of upgrading my 40 breeder high tech tank to a larger size when I move and 75 was one of the things I was considering. Not crazy about having to reach my arm into deeper tanks to scape.


Yeah the 24" height was a pain but you get used to it. Im 5'11" with fairly long arms, it was all I could do to plant things in the back 6" or so using tweezers. Couldnt touch bottom with my fingers. In retrospect I would've built a shorter custom stand instead of using the factory one (27") 



oval291 said:


> How do you find the Hydor 600 on the 75 gallon? I plan to setup a new 75 gallon planted tank shortly and I have a Eheim 2217 that I plan to use but was also looking at Hydor. Some of the reviews said it was difficult to clean.


Its been a solid filter so far, no harder to clean than any other canister. Usually needs a few pumps on the priming button to restart.

Pros:
Dead silent
Strong flow

Cons:
Intake/outflow pipes - dont like the color, the "throats" are too wide to side well over the rim, gotta use all the suction cups to get them straight, some on the outside. Limited aiming options on the outflow nozzle.

I prefer Sunsuns 10x over. Equal flow and silent, effortless restart.

The built in UV is nice. Only 9 watts but it's more than capable of handling a green water bloom. I only run it occasionally, 24 hours after a big trim or move.

But the built in surface skimmer is the real gem here. Cant imagine being without that now. In fact Im running sunsun pipes on the hydor.


----------



## Triport

I hated Hydor. Bought two. One of them just flat out leaked while setting it up. And by leak I mean waterfall pouring out of the filter as it was priming. The other one I kept losing the cycle. I have never had that happen before but I had nitrite spikes 3 times with a Hydor filter. Went back to Eheim classic on that tank and it hasn't happened since. Never again with Hydor.


----------



## fablau

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*

Fantastic update as always Joe, sorry I am late here. Is the Ludwigia Polycarpa that nice red/variegated plant? If so, let me know when you have enough to sell!


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Fantastic update as always Joe, sorry I am late here. Is the Ludwigia Polycarpa that nice red/variegated plant? If so, let me know when you have enough to sell!


The red is Rotala macranda variegated. Polycarpa is the large yellowish brown stems to the left. I was hoping it would get a nice pink or more brilliant yellow. Not sure if its gonna stay or not


----------



## Leaky Filter

Here's a simple scape question with what I suspect may not be a simple answer... How often do you trim stems, remove the base, and replant the remaining top stem and how often are you lopping off the stem low to the substrate and allowing the stem to grow a split section?


----------



## burr740

Leaky Filter said:


> Here's a simple scape question with what I suspect may not be a simple answer... How often do you trim stems, remove the base, and replant the remaining top stem and how often are you lopping off the stem low to the substrate and allowing the stem to grow a split section?


Most stem plants react the same way. If you cut the top and leave the stump, the stump will sprout new stems, usually more than one.

The alternative is to replant the nice top and toss the bottom. This works fine for most plants, unless the plant is not happy to begin with. Sometimes a finicky species will stunt when you replant the top. And sometimes the stunted stem will start to produce new side shoots lower down. 

This is the plant reacting to stress by attempting to start itself over. The main top is abandoned and the plant puts those resources towards new stems. A survival mechanism

Stubborn finicky species can often be "fixed" by cutting the bad tops off and leaving the stump to sprout new ones. New growth usually comes in nicer.

Lets say you have Pantanal or some Rotala that looks nice for a while then the tips stunt for whatever reason. You can save the plant by cutting the bad top off and leaving the stump to sprout new ones. Usually these new stems will look nice until you cut them again and replant the top. That is, if you havent solved the problem of why the plant is unhappy in the first place.

Generally speaking plants that are totally happy wont have a problem getting replanted. At least I cant think of one that does.

As for when to do it, I'll cut and replant tops when it gets too tall for whatever space it's in. If I have plenty the bottoms get tossed. If Im trying to make more I'll leave the stumps intermingled to sprout new ones. Or you can put the stumps somewhere else to do their thing in a grow out tank or whatever.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> The red is Rotala macranda variegated. Polycarpa is the large yellowish brown stems to the left. I was hoping it would get a nice pink or more brilliant yellow. Not sure if its gonna stay or not




Thanks Joe, actually that looked like it! Well, whenever you have to sell, let me know! Thanks


----------



## Spiffyfish

It's a slow grower, macrandra that is.


----------



## aqua-botanicae

*120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 50% more Dutch!*



burr740 said:


> The red is Rotala macranda variegated. Polycarpa is the large yellowish brown stems to the left. I was hoping it would get a nice pink or more brilliant yellow. Not sure if its gonna stay or not




If you’re referring to Ludwigia sphaerocarpa, do you have any cuttings for sale? I was looking for this plant.


----------



## Beccanne

Wow, I love the colors in this tank! Looks really great!


----------



## burr740

aqua-botanicae said:


> If you’re referring to Ludwigia sphaerocarpa, do you have any cuttings for sale? I was looking for this plant.



Polycarpa, close cousin











Both like to drop areal roots and have a tendency to lean. Think the leaning may be nutrient related because these are growing pretty straight lately, straighter than either variety ever has before. 

Dont have any sphaero atm, there's also a pink variety that's looks pretty cool from what Ive seen in pics. 



Beccanne said:


> Wow, I love the colors in this tank! Looks really great!


Thanks!


----------



## rhiro

Hi Joe, could you post your current macro dose including Ca and Mg?

Thanks,
Rod


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Hi Joe, could you post your current macro dose including Ca and Mg?
> 
> Thanks,
> Rod


Weekly totals

NO3 - 30 ppm 
PO4 - 3.5 ppm
K - 32 ppm
Ca - 35-40 ppm (tap)
Mg - 14 ppm (3-4 in tap)

*Im changing NO3 to 25 but just started this week. Its been 30 for the past couple of months

Immediately following the weekly water change I dose 18 ppm KNO3, 2.4 ppm P, 12 ppm K2SO4 and 10 ppm MgSO4 (epsom salt)

Then two more doses through the week of 6 KNO3 and .8 P. 

If that sounds confusing I use a macro solution with 6 ppm KNO3 and .8 ppm KH2PO4 per dose. After the water change I give it three doses worth.

Front loading macros has been working really well for the past few months (dosing heavy right after the water change then two smaller doses through the week)

The levels stay more consistent instead of taking a big dip early in the week like they do with a standard EI routine of three equal doses. 

Its a subtle difference but everything seems to do better


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> Weekly totals
> 
> NO3 - 30 ppm
> PO4 - 3.5 ppm
> K - 32 ppm
> Ca - 35-40 ppm (tap)
> Mg - 14 ppm (3-4 in tap)
> 
> *Im changing NO3 to 25 but just started this week. Its been 30 for the past couple of months
> 
> Immediately following the weekly water change I dose 18 ppm KNO3, 2.4 ppm P, 12 ppm K2SO4 and 10 ppm MgSO4 (epsom salt)
> 
> Then two more doses through the week of 6 KNO3 and .8 P.
> 
> If that sounds confusing I use a macro solution with 6 ppm KNO3 and .8 ppm KH2PO4 per dose. After the water change I give it three doses worth.
> 
> Front loading macros has been working really well for the past few months (dosing heavy right after the water change then two smaller doses through the week)
> 
> The levels stay more consistent instead of taking a big dip early in the week like they do with a standard EI routine of three equal doses.
> 
> Its a subtle difference but everything seems to do better



Thanks Joe. I like to use your numbers to determine the ratios you have between the different nutrients. In particular Ca vs Mg and NO3 vs PO4. Trying to determine if I should buy CaSO4.

My water report does not have Ca listed so I used the dKH of my tap to determine the Ca concentration added on a 50% water change. I have not been able to find any web docs which validate my math. 

Have you read or seen this done before? For example my tap has 3dKH. On a 40 gal with 20 gal water change I computed I am adding 10.72 ppm of Ca.

Thanks again.


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Thanks Joe. I like to use your numbers to determine the ratios you have between the different nutrients. In particular Ca vs Mg and NO3 vs PO4. Trying to determine if I should buy CaSO4.
> 
> My water report does not have Ca listed so I used the dKH of my tap to determine the Ca concentration added on a 50% water change. I have not been able to find any web docs which validate my math.
> 
> Have you read or seen this done before? For example my tap has 3dKH. On a 40 gal with 20 gal water change I computed I am adding 10.72 ppm of Ca.
> 
> Thanks again.



I dont believe you can derive Ca ppms from KH. You can from GH if you know the Mg

API's saltwater Ca test kit will work (apparently) but you have to adjust the amount of water and drops used to make it read low enough for our purposes.

Personally I've never fooled with it enough to know, here's a thread talking about it 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1264234-testing-calcium.html


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> I dont believe you can derive Ca ppms from KH. You can from GH if you know the Mg
> 
> API's saltwater Ca test kit will work (apparently) but you have to adjust the amount of water and drops used to make it read low enough for our purposes.
> 
> Personally I've never fooled with it enough to know, here's a thread talking about it
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1264234-testing-calcium.html


Yes you are correct. I misunderstood what KH represented.

Saw a post by Tom Barr that in essence stated in his 20+ years he has never seen a plant deficiency due to a lack of calcium. I will hold off adding more chemicals to my tanks as they are doing nicely under my current fert regime. Just my always wanting to experiment that gets the best of me.

Thanks for the link.


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Saw a post by Tom Barr that in essence stated in his 20+ years he has never seen a plant deficiency due to a lack of calcium.


If that's the case then why is he always so adamant that gh booster is an essential part of EI? I've seen that statement too, Tom tends to be a bit hyperbolic at times. 

He may not have seen it but there are hundreds of other hobbyists who've seen improvement by adding some.

Not saying you need it but it wont hurt to try. It's flattened out many an AR leaf...


----------



## MCFC

burr740 said:


> Tom tends to be a bit hyperbolic at times.


What?? Not possible!!


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> It's flattened out many an AR leaf...


You can say that over and over...coz it's the truth....at least based on my experience!!


----------



## Grobbins48

Just noticed the new title to this journal. I like the sense of humor!!! Oh and I also really enjoy the journal!


----------



## Immortal1

Grobbins48 said:


> Just noticed the new title to this journal. I like the sense of humor!!! Oh and I also really enjoy the journal!


 Given the detailed results of the various on-line calculators, I'm wondering if the "quoted" math is really correct?
LOL, just kidding Joe


----------



## burr740

Hah, I wondered if anyone would notice.

Linn, 37.5% didnt exactly roll off the tongue so I rounded it :red_mouth


----------



## burr740

Couple of weeks ago I switched to an atomizer in the 50 gal. Im toying with the idea of switching out all the all reactors.

I like the idea of pure co2 making contact with plants. Supposedly plants absorb it more easily than being dissolved in water. Makes sense if you think about it. 

And with these monster reactors it's always felt like Im wasting a lot of co2. instead of forcing tons into a reactor chamber why not just blast a mist into the tank itself. What's not dissolved can hit the plants

Early signs are the atomizer is more efficient. I dont have a flow meter on the 50 but just eyeballing it appears to be using maybe 2/3 what it was before. Co2 kicks on an hour before the lights now instead of two. Same PH drop as before. Plants pearl more, and start doing it sooner.

I know @Greggz had one to start leaking so I've got this one down in the plastic bucket with the filter. 



















Still moving things around in the Dutch. Here it was a couple weeks ago










Today. Think Ive found the two front corner plants.










Left half of the tank is sort of a mess. I doubt the sunsets are gonna stay unless I can get a good separation between it and Bacopa colorata, otherwise the colors are too similar. 

Thinking about doing blyxa in place of the Erio vietnams. I like the dark green but looking for a denser grass. These are younglings stuck back in the ground after selling a bunch, currently have the group too wide but whatever. 

Right half....might be close. Trying a wrap-around-street-thingy with Staurogyne spathulata. It'll branch 2-3 per stem and thicken up better. 










Rotala macranda variegated Im on the fence with, might be too strong of a red to use on the end. The group is sorta scraggly atm because I can stop selling it long enough to fatten it up. Hard to resist at 6 bucks a pop...

Gratiola viscidula, a gift from Vin a while back. Im really digging this plant. Looks like a little thorny bush. Grows slow too which is nice










Another cool plant I got from Vin, Limnophila chinesis. It's about 3" wide, grows slow and doesnt branch much. It took about 10 weeks to grow 3 into 7



















Crypt spiralis red tiger


----------



## Greggz

Nice update Burr!

Always love seeing the tank. And I particularly like seeing the new species. Seems like you always have something new and interesting. The bad part is when I see them I want them, but I have absolutely no room for anything new (and I have a box coming from Maryland Guppy on Monday!). 

Now as to putting that Atomizer in the plastic bucket.......well, if what happened to me happens to you, that ain't gonna help you much.

Mine split at the seam. If I wasn't standing right there (which was a miracle!), the tank would have drained until the water level got below the intake. Think of a siphon running into that bucket. I would have had probably 80 gallons on the floor.

If I were going that route, I would just put a diffuser in the tank. Just saying I will never, ever put a piece of plastic like that in line again. I sure hope you have better luck than me.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Nice update Burr!
> 
> Always love seeing the tank. And I particularly like seeing the new species. Seems like you always have something new and interesting. The bad part is when I see them I want them, but I have absolutely no room for anything new (and I have a box coming from Maryland Guppy on Monday!).
> 
> Now as to putting that Atomizer in the plastic bucket.......well, if what happened to me happens to you, that ain't gonna help you much.
> 
> Mine split at the seam. If I wasn't standing right there (which was a miracle!), the tank would have drained until the water level got below the intake. Think of a siphon running into that bucket. I would have had probably 80 gallons on the floor.
> 
> If I were going that route, I would just put a diffuser in the tank. Just saying I will never, ever put a piece of plastic like that in line again. I sure hope you have better luck than me.


Hmm, I was thinking more in terms of a drip, or a tiny stream shooting out. That puts a new light on things especially after what I just went through with the 120. May hold off swapping the 75s out, or figure out a way to do a diffuser.

And you need to get busy resealing that other 120, or just buy another tank! 

Even when all I had was a spare 20 gallon it made a world of difference, just being able to keep plants in, grow things out, experiment if I wanted to without putting the main tank in jeopardy. If you ever get a second tank you'll wonder how you ever did without it. Believe that!


----------



## Immortal1

Have to agree with Gregg on that one regarding the tank / bucket. Now my home made Cerges reactor is also in basically the same location as Joe's atomizer - return line to tank. But given what I know about my reactor I would almost consider it bullit proof with regards to leaking.

When I first read Joe;s commonts regarding an atomizer I was invisioning an in-tank atomizer. Oddly enough, many of the asian tanks I see have in-tank atomizers. Can't remember ever hearing / reading about one of the ADA display tanks having a reactor. Why is that? Is Joe on to something? Does ADA know something we don't? Personally I always felt the reactor (Griggs or Cerges) was a better/more efficient way to go. 

Will be interested in following along Joe to see how this goes for you.


----------



## swarley

XiaoZhuang on his site states/proposes that CO2 is most efficiently added to the system via an atomizer because of the fine mist being able to hit the plants as well as the dissolved CO2. Sort of best of both worlds.


----------



## Axelrodi202

I've noticed in my own 120 gallon that an in-tank diffuser leads to better plant growth compared to inline dissolving via a venturi injector.


----------



## burr740

@Greggz was yours the kind that could be taken apart and the ceramic replaced, or the solid version that doesnt come apart?


----------



## LRJ

Man, that is looking great! The right side is especially awesome.

And holy smokes that crypt is a showstopper! Where did you get it?


----------



## burr740

Axelrodi202 said:


> I've noticed in my own 120 gallon that an in-tank diffuser leads to better plant growth compared to inline dissolving via a venturi injector.


 There've been a few times Ive just blasted it through a powerhead inside the tank. One back in my diy co2 days, and a couple of times for a month or two onn a new tank before getting all the equipment installed. 

Plants always did great with a heavy mist, took less CO2 as well.



LRJ said:


> Man, that is looking great! The right side is especially awesome.
> 
> And holy smokes that crypt is a showstopper! Where did you get it?


Thanks! Still a lot to hash out scape-wise. The crypt I got it from Vin last year. Grown several from the original by now.

At one point I had it as a focal point in the 120 but it wasnt really bulky enough to command the right attention. Maybe I just didnt give it enough time...

Need to find somewhere to put it, its too good not to use really.


----------



## OreoP

Mind blowing as usual!! Where do I sign up for Burr's School of Aquascaping???


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

that Lagnadera meeboldii, my eyes auto focused on it lmao

which brand of atomizer are you using burr? I'm considering switching too but hell i have fears of it breaking


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Greggz was yours the kind that could be taken apart and the ceramic replaced, or the solid version that doesnt come apart?


It's the one where you take it apart to clean/replace the diffuser. 

Sold under a number of different names and a number of different prices but all look exactly the same to me.

I actually ran a quick thread describing what happened. Just read the first post to get an idea of what it's like.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8-general-planted-tank-discussion/1056353-line-co2-diffuser-failure%85-monday-night-panic.html


----------



## Grobbins48

Rather that running an inline atomizer, I see there are in tank ones that are supposed to create finer bubbles than a normal ceramic diffuser. Something like this: Aquarium CO2 Diffuser | Atomic - Cal Aqua Labs - Pollen - Nano

Would this give the same effect if placed correctly in the tank?

BTW, what in inspiration and beautiful looking tank!


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Mind blowing as usual!! Where do I sign up for Burr's School of Aquascaping???


No need to sign up. I can give you the entire philosophy in one paragraph

Have an idea and stick a bunch of plants in the ground accordingly. Step back and look for a week or three. Nah, that's no good. Rip it up and try something else. Rinse and repeat until something looks halfway decent.

That is literally what I do! :nerd:



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> that Lagnadera meeboldii, my eyes auto focused on it lmao


Great, that's the idea! It needs to get 2-3 inches taller and fill out a bit. It should do that. Also needs moving a fuzz to the left



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> which brand of atomizer are you using burr? I'm considering switching too but hell i have fears of it breaking


It's an Up-Aqua like you see everywhere. Like Gregg said they all look the same and are probably just rebranded











....and I bought 3 of them :facepalm: They were supposed to be the "new design" you can take apart to clean or replace the ceramic but they're the old model that doesnt come apart. This may be a good thing idk

JBL Pro Floras are supposed to be legit. They screw together. Mainly available in Europe but you can find them on 3bay. They have to come from Germany or somewhere and are like 50-60 bucks w/shipping, probably take a month to get here.

I'd probably try one of those if I had it to do over. Still might at some point.

Anyone know a US source?



Greggz said:


> I actually ran a quick thread describing what happened. Just read the first post to get an idea of what it's like.


I officially hate you!


----------



## jeffkrol

burr740 said:


> It's an Up-Aqua like you see everywhere. Like Gregg said they all look the same and are probably just rebranded
> 
> ....and I bought 3 of them :facepalm: They were supposed to be the "new design" you can take apart to clean or replace the ceramic but they're the old model that doesn't come apart. This may be a good thing idk



Consider yourself luck.. 
"New" cleanable style and stress cracking.
actually developed a pin hole leak.

Current philosophy is not to trust any in the "brown" plastic.
My ole black/non-cleanable one has worked flawlessly for years.











Flavor of the day atomizer..








https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/qanvee-m1-out-tank-co2-atomizer.50453/


----------



## ipkiss

@jeffkrol, 

That looks pretty good! I just went through your linked thread. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. It occurred to me the other day that my tank looks like soda anyway from all the pearling -- so whatever one of the guys complaining about over there about extra misting bubbles making it into the display tank isn't my concern. My big deal is the best delivery. I love my reactor, but if one of these can do it, and simplify the plumbing in the process, then so be it. Bring it on! 

Also, I noticed this Qanvee brand is starting to get on my radar. I have an algae cleaner from them and I love it. Now this ... hmm.


----------



## burr740

jeffkrol said:


> My ole black/non-cleanable one has worked flawlessly for years.


That's good to know! Maybe I lucked out



Grobbins48 said:


> Rather that running an inline atomizer, I see there are in tank ones that are supposed to create finer bubbles than a normal ceramic diffuser. Something like this: Aquarium CO2 Diffuser | Atomic - Cal Aqua Labs - Pollen - Nano
> 
> Would this give the same effect if placed correctly in the tank?


 Yep, that'd be just as good if you place it in some current so the bubbles get blown around.


ADA recommends doing it like this. Having it under an outflow or powerhead could work too


----------



## Immortal1

To me Joe, the above diagram would likely work fine on a smaller tank, say my wifes 24" wide 40 gallon. But with my 48" long tank with the spraybar on the far right side I don't believe placing the intank diffuser on the far left side would be that effective. Your thought on placing it near the bottom of the tank, under the spraybar would seem like a better idea to me.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> To me Joe, the above diagram would likely work fine on a smaller tank, say my wifes 24" wide 40 gallon. But with my 48" long tank with the spraybar on the far right side I don't believe placing the intank diffuser on the far left side would be that effective. Your thought on placing it near the bottom of the tank, under the spraybar would seem like a better idea to me.


I think the velocity from a spray bar may not do it since it's spread out. I know on all my 4' tanks current hits the far wall and travels down with a fierceness. There's no doubt in my mind it would work. But I dont use spray bars just a round pipe opening. ADA uses lily pipes which have a similar effect.

I believe user jeff?? and @houseofcards both run diffusers on big tanks. 

But yeah it all depends on how the current is


----------



## Immortal1

Hmmm, interesting @burr740 - will have to see if I can duplicate the far wall downforce in my tank. If there, I may consider an in-tank diffuser as an experiment.


----------



## Grobbins48

The spray bar on my 55 crates quite a down force, all the plants away towards the spray bar. I also have it aimed up at the surface to create agitation. Initially I was worried about flow in my tank but that has not been an issue it seems.

On my 29 gallon I could never quite get the effect I was looking for from the diffuser with a HOB because it needing to be placed on the back of the tank. Now that I have a spray bar I get the flow at @burr740 is showing from the ADA model with a SunSun spray bar and canister. Now the bubble are actually forced down from my nano diffuser and it seems to work very well!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> That's good to know! Maybe I lucked out


I wouldn't be too sure. That looks just like the one I had.

And many reviews have one thing in common......leaks!

Here's one I could have wrote..........................

_will eventually crack and empty your aquarium onto the floor! This began leaking water out of a crack in the housing, running down the hose and onto the floor. In trying to diagnose and determine what was going on, the crack got worse and began gushing aquarium water out of it. If you purchase this product you are making a very poor life decision.
_


----------



## oval291

Do you have a journal for your 50 gallon...


----------



## Axelrodi202

Even though inline diffusers produce mist, I think inline injection is generally not as good an idea, at least if it's with your filters. Since your filter outlets are near the water surface the mist comes out already very close to the water surface, having a very short journey up and out of the water column. Meanwhile with an in-tank diffuser as ADA does it the bubbles come out around halfway down the water column. They are then swept by the horizontal laminar water current and suspended longer in the water column before reaching the surface (if they do at all).

Spraybars do not give a good flow. Yes the water comes out fast but is quickly diffused since each stream is so small. Lily pipes (or some sort of piped singular outflow) really do provide the best water current pattern.


----------



## burr740

oval291 said:


> Do you have a journal for your 50 gallon...


Nah it isnt scaped or anything, just for growing things out.

It's 48x12x18, basically a short 55. Two T5s, sand substrate, same co2 and ferts as the other tanks












Axelrodi202 said:


> Even though inline diffusers produce mist, I think inline injection is generally not as good an idea, at least if it's with your filters. Since your filter outlets are near the water surface the mist comes out already very close to the water surface, having a very short journey up and out of the water column. Meanwhile with an in-tank diffuser as ADA does it the bubbles come out around halfway down the water column. They are then swept by the horizontal laminar water current and suspended longer in the water column before reaching the surface (if they do at all).


That's a good point. I like to aim any outflow with co2 downward and use a powerhead or another filter for the surface agitation. The 50 currently is the only one aimed straight across simply because it's the only thing running. 

It's not a huge deal, just have to pump a little more co2 to make up for the loss. And as I said before, the 50 now with the atomizer is using considerably less co2 than with the previous reactor. Go figure..

In related news Tsing found some JBLs on the bay for $40 shipped. Grabbed one for each 75. Coming from Germany supposed to take 2-4 weeks.

We ATOMIZING baby!!


----------



## Jeff5614

jeffkrol said:


> Consider yourself luck..
> "New" cleanable style and stress cracking.
> actually developed a pin hole leak.
> 
> Current philosophy is not to trust any in the "brown" plastic.
> My ole black/non-cleanable one has worked flawlessly for years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Flavor of the day atomizer..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/qanvee-m1-out-tank-co2-atomizer.50453/


How's the Qanvee atomizer working out? I picked one up recently, but haven't tried it yet. I've had a couple of the older style UpAquas that you can't open to clean and they've been going strong for a few years now.


----------



## jeffkrol

OK I guess.. no leaks.. 
Well leaked "out of the box" at the 1/4" tubing part..Came loose in shipping or isn't tightened from the factory..
didn't help my paranoia..

As to delivery.. Long story as to give it a ????
I have an issue determining effectiveness..
Unlike my older units this one makes no noticeable "hiss" AFAICT.
Part due to the bigger filter size, part to my philosophy of low CO2 delivery..
so no selzer ...

nothing about the tank tells me its not working.. LOL..
Need to do more work on it.

bought it for the assumed lower delivery pressure it takes..

Point is, strangely, I'm just assuming it's working. Also in an odd spot and unlike the older style, harder to see it "empty" of water (displaced by CO2)
I need another 14/16mm(?) one anyways (not sure I'll get one of these, not crazy about all the disassembly points). So will swap (to a better test site) as soon as I get it.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

The Limnophila chinensis growth is hugely influenced by phosphate levels. At 10-12 ppm per week, it will get big, fast and weedy. Stick an API or Seachem root tab under it and see what it does. My chinensis in the low-to-med P level Kill Tanks are slow and gimpy.


----------



## Jeff5614

jeffkrol said:


> OK I guess.. no leaks..
> Well leaked "out of the box" at the 1/4" tubing part..Came loose in shipping or isn't tightened from the factory..
> didn't help my paranoia..
> 
> As to delivery.. Long story as to give it a ????
> I have an issue determining effectiveness..
> Unlike my older units this one makes no noticeable "hiss" AFAICT.
> Part due to the bigger filter size, part to my philosophy of low CO2 delivery..
> so no selzer ...
> 
> nothing about the tank tells me its not working.. LOL..
> Need to do more work on it.
> 
> bought it for the assumed lower delivery pressure it takes..
> 
> Point is, strangely, I'm just assuming it's working. Also in an odd spot and unlike the older style, harder to see it "empty" of water (displaced by CO2)
> I need another 14/16mm(?) one anyways (not sure I'll get one of these, not crazy about all the disassembly points). So will swap (to a better test site) as soon as I get it.


All of the connections were loose on mine out of the box also. Every time I swap one out I place them in a bowl of water and let the CO2 run before connecting them inline to check for leaks. I started that habit after reading of Greggz's catastrophe at the time. I thought finding weak spots early was preferable to late. It's also an easy way to check that you're actually getting CO2 through since you get little bubbles coming out.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

I'm with you on this. Believing that Ca deficiency is virtually unheard of has caused me grief in the past. 

I suspect that high tech tanks probably uptake 1 or 2 ppm Ca/week at the most (my guess based on how much nitrate is taken up weekly) but if you dose 2 ppm Ca per week based on uptake, you may be in trouble. I've tried it a few times and it's been a disaster for some species. There are always some plants that handle it well. 





burr740 said:


> If that's the case then why is he always so adamant that gh booster is an essential part of EI? I've seen that statement too, Tom tends to be a bit hyperbolic at times.
> 
> He may not have seen it but there are hundreds of other hobbyists who've seen improvement by adding some.
> 
> Not saying you need it but it wont hurt to try. It's flattened out many an AR leaf...


----------



## rhiro

Saxa Tilly said:


> I'm with you on this. Believing that Ca deficiency is virtually unheard of has caused me grief in the past.
> 
> I suspect that high tech tanks probably uptake 1 or 2 ppm Ca/week at the most (my guess based on how much nitrate is taken up weekly) but if you dose 2 ppm Ca per week based on uptake, you may be in trouble. I've tried it a few times and it's been a disaster for some species. There are always some plants that handle it well.



I tried using the Rotala calculator for Seachem Equilibrium, NilocG GH and CaSO4.2H2O for EI. I get results I don't understand.

Entered 10 Gallon Aquarium for EI dosing

CaSO4.2H2O target is 15 ppm CA with 2.1 dGH

NilocG GH Booster target is 5 dGH with resulting Ca of 26.8 ppm

Seachem Equilibrium target is 7.5 ppm K with 0.61 dGH

Can anyone explain this?


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> I tried using the Rotala calculator for Seachem Equilibrium, NilocG GH and CaSO4.2H2O for EI. I get results I don't understand.
> 
> Entered 10 Gallon Aquarium for EI dosing
> 
> CaSO4.2H2O target is 15 ppm CA with 2.1 dGH
> 
> NilocG GH Booster target is 5 dGH with resulting Ca of 26.8 ppm
> 
> Seachem Equilibrium target is 7.5 ppm K with 0.61 dGH
> 
> Can anyone explain this?


When you leave 'calculating for' set to the default "estimative index' setting, it calculates for a specific compound or value based on EI

The calculator defaults to K for Equilibrium because K is the highest thing in it. An EI dose of K is 7.5 ppm, so it's telling you how much Equilibrium to add for 7.5 ppm K, which also adds 3.1 ppm Ca and everything else you see in the right hand column.

Nilocg the calculator is defaulting to dGH, for which 5 is the general EI range. So it's telling you how much to add for 5 degrees GH, which adds 26 Ca, 5 mg and 52 K. Note that GH boosters like this arent really made to achieve 5 dGH unless you're using 100% RO water. Ideally you just raise a point or two using GH boosters

CaSO4 obviously is defaulting to Ca, which 15 ppm is the standard EI dose. Again this assumes you have zero Ca in the water. Also ignore the "dose these levels 3-4 times per week" or whatever it says. That's for macros and micros using EI and really shouldnt be there for Ca.

If you're just trying to add some additional Ca then go with CaSO4 and do something like 5-10 ppm (Id start w/5)

On the calculator change 'estimative index' to 'dose to reach a target' then enter your desired ppm. It'll tell you how much to add

If you want to increase Mg and K as well with something like nilocg, change the calculator to 'dose to reach a target' and enter 1. This is calculating to raise dGH 1 degree, which adds 5.71 ppm Ca and all the other stuff you see.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> When you leave 'calculating for' set to the default "estimative index' setting, it calculates for a specific compound or value based on EI
> 
> The calculator defaults to K for Equilibrium because K is the highest thing in it. An EI dose of K is 7.5 ppm, so it's telling you how much Equilibrium to add for 7.5 ppm K, which also adds 3.1 ppm Ca and everything else you see in the right hand column.
> 
> Nilocg the calculator is defaulting to dGH, for which 5 is the general EI range. So it's telling you how much to add for 5 degrees GH, which adds 26 Ca, 5 mg and 52 K. Note that GH boosters like this arent really made to achieve 5 dGH unless you're using 100% RO water. Ideally you just raise a point or two using GH boosters
> 
> CaSO4 obviously is defaulting to Ca, which 15 ppm is the standard EI dose. Again this assumes you have zero Ca in the water. Also ignore the "dose these levels 3-4 times per week" or whatever it says. That's for macros and micros using EI and really shouldnt be there for Ca.
> 
> If you're just trying to add some additional Ca then go with CaSO4 and do something like 5-10 ppm (Id start w/5)
> 
> On the calculator change 'estimative index' to 'dose to reach a target' then enter your desired ppm. It'll tell you how much to add
> 
> If you want to increase Mg and K as well with something like nilocg, change the calculator to 'dose to reach a target' and enter 1. This is calculating to raise dGH 1 degree, which adds 5.71 ppm Ca and all the other stuff you see.


Holey Smokes Burr I had to sit down I was getting dizzy reading this post!!:wink2::wink2:

Great information but I'm just a little woozy now.

But seriously, I remember when I started in this hobby. Something like this seemed like complete gibberish. It takes a while for it all to sink in. 

So for those trying to make sense of it, read it SLOWLY and have the calculator open. I can vouch all above makes perfect sense if you apply yourself just a bit.

And as you progress in the hobby, the calculators will be your friend, so it's worth the extra effort to figure it out.


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> When you leave 'calculating for' set to the default "estimative index' setting, it calculates for a specific compound or value based on EI
> 
> The calculator defaults to K for Equilibrium because K is the highest thing in it. An EI dose of K is 7.5 ppm, so it's telling you how much Equilibrium to add for 7.5 ppm K, which also adds 3.1 ppm Ca and everything else you see in the right hand column.
> 
> Nilocg the calculator is defaulting to dGH, for which 5 is the general EI range. So it's telling you how much to add for 5 degrees GH, which adds 26 Ca, 5 mg and 52 K. Note that GH boosters like this arent really made to achieve 5 dGH unless you're using 100% RO water. Ideally you just raise a point or two using GH boosters
> 
> CaSO4 obviously is defaulting to Ca, which 15 ppm is the standard EI dose. Again this assumes you have zero Ca in the water. Also ignore the "dose these levels 3-4 times per week" or whatever it says. That's for macros and micros using EI and really shouldnt be there for Ca.
> 
> If you're just trying to add some additional Ca then go with CaSO4 and do something like 5-10 ppm (Id start w/5)
> 
> On the calculator change 'estimative index' to 'dose to reach a target' then enter your desired ppm. It'll tell you how much to add
> 
> If you want to increase Mg and K as well with something like nilocg, change the calculator to 'dose to reach a target' and enter 1. This is calculating to raise dGH 1 degree, which adds 5.71 ppm Ca and all the other stuff you see.



Thanks Joe. Is there a Ca to Mg or Ca to any other nutrient ratio that is preferred?


----------



## sdwindansea

Immortal1 said:


> Hmmm, interesting @*burr740* - will have to see if I can duplicate the far wall downforce in my tank. If there, I may consider an in-tank diffuser as an experiment.



My 60g is 48" long. I have a spray bar on the left side of the tank pointing to the right with a decent amount of surface agitation. The flow/down-flow on the right side of the tank is always strong, probably too much so.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Holey Smokes Burr I had to sit down I was getting dizzy reading this post!!:wink2::wink2:
> 
> Great information but I'm just a little woozy now.
> 
> But seriously, I remember when I started in this hobby. Something like this seemed like complete gibberish. It takes a while for it all to sink in.
> 
> So for those trying to make sense of it, read it SLOWLY and have the calculator open. I can vouch all above makes perfect sense if you apply yourself just a bit.
> 
> And as you progress in the hobby, the calculators will be your friend, so it's worth the extra effort to figure it out.


Well it was a complex question with no simple answer. 



rhiro said:


> Thanks Joe. Is there a Ca to Mg or Ca to any other nutrient ratio that is preferred?


The general consensus is that a 3:1 to 5:1 Ca:Mg ratio is best, but its not carved in stone. You should be safe adding 5-10 ppm Ca regardless as long as nothing else is running short to begin with.

Its one of those things where you just have to watch the plants and see what they tell you


----------



## burr740

One of my peeves in the hobby is the idea that stem plants drop lower leaves because the lower part of the stem isnt getting enough light. People say this all the time and its pure hogwash. Healthy stems dont drop lower leaves.

All these dense groups of stems you see in tanks everywhere with happy plants - those middle stems arent devoid of lower leaves. (lol!) If the plants are happy those stems are good pretty much all the way to the ground.

Plants use the energy they get from light holistically. It doesnt have to shine on a particular leaf. 

Here is a good example, Helanthium bolivianum Angustifolia, the tall grass in the front left corner. It spreads via runners like a Val. I keep the ones I see pinched off but there's usually a couple growing up behind the moss wall that I dont see.

Here's one I pulled out today, about a foot tall and never seen a ray of light in its life. It's a little pale but otherwise perfectly healthy 










On the quest to find a place for the Crypt spiralis tiger in the Dutch. Stick it in the ground and step back and look, story of my life...










Seemed like a good idea at the time, maybe with a different green behind it but Im not really diggin it right here.

Plus the current coming from the right blows it over too much










Finally settled on L aromatica mini. It's looking nice and yellow lately, will grow into a taller bush pretty soon and be easy to shape however.










Hydrothrix is coming out, sorta temporaried atm. Its not a bold enough green for back there. Thinking Limnophila chinesis might be a good look. A real Dutch master would use Wisteria and bring it all the way down to the front. :icon_eek: 

Also gotta come up with a street plant to run front to back and tie all that in somehow

Limnophila indica was already at the surface since the last fts. Topped and replanted. I didnt exactly nail the placement this time, it's too spread out and crowded against the log.

The bright side is there's no need to sweat it because it'll need doing again next week. You get plenty of practice with this one, believe that


----------



## Deanna

burr740 said:


> When you leave 'calculating for' set to the default "estimative index' setting, it calculates for a specific compound or value based on EI
> 
> The calculator defaults to K for Equilibrium because K is the highest thing in it. An EI dose of K is 7.5 ppm, so it's telling you how much Equilibrium to add for 7.5 ppm K, which also adds 3.1 ppm Ca and everything else you see in the right hand column.
> 
> Nilocg the calculator is defaulting to dGH, for which 5 is the general EI range. So it's telling you how much to add for 5 degrees GH, which adds 26 Ca, 5 mg and 52 K. Note that GH boosters like this arent really made to achieve 5 dGH unless you're using 100% RO water. Ideally you just raise a point or two using GH boosters
> 
> CaSO4 obviously is defaulting to Ca, which 15 ppm is the standard EI dose. Again this assumes you have zero Ca in the water. Also ignore the "dose these levels 3-4 times per week" or whatever it says. That's for macros and micros using EI and really shouldnt be there for Ca.
> 
> If you're just trying to add some additional Ca then go with CaSO4 and do something like 5-10 ppm (Id start w/5)
> 
> On the calculator change 'estimative index' to 'dose to reach a target' then enter your desired ppm. It'll tell you how much to add
> 
> If you want to increase Mg and K as well with something like nilocg, change the calculator to 'dose to reach a target' and enter 1. This is calculating to raise dGH 1 degree, which adds 5.71 ppm Ca and all the other stuff you see.


Yes: good description. Seems simple to us, but we all had to struggle with it once. I use Ca gluconate (to avoid long dissolution times) and CaCl2 (to add a little chloride – but not mixed with my MgSO4). I target 3 dGH with a 3:1 ratio.

I find that, over time, with water changes and various uptake rates, that the ratio drifts enough that I have to re-balance it, although I doubt that the plants notice any difference. In order to do that, you need either a Ca or Mg test kit, or both (for my own calibrating obsessions), so you can calculate current ratios.

Re: in-line diffusers: I’m surprised so many of you are leaning that way. I went the opposite (to a Griggs) after living with the in-line (Atomic) for about a year. It did a great job, but there is no doubt that you can distinguish a resulting haze (not mist) from it. Although you get used to it, if you have a sparkling clear tank, as you all do, I noticed a difference after leaving it.


----------



## LRJ

No doubt the mini aromatica is a better fit in that spot. Might be tough to find a place for the tiger crypt AND the lagenandra in a 4 foot tank.

Everything from the red ludwigia to the right is killer. I agree about the hydrothrix though. 

The fissidens log ascending from foreground into the background is a great touch. Been wanting to do something like that in my tank.

Does that staurogyne species grow tall enough that you will be able to extend it up towards the right corner?


----------



## burr740

LRJ said:


> No doubt the mini aromatica is a better fit in that spot. Might be tough to find a place for the tiger crypt AND the lagenandra in a 4 foot tank.
> 
> Everything from the red ludwigia to the right is killer. I agree about the hydrothrix though.
> 
> The fissidens log ascending from foreground into the background is a great touch. Been wanting to do something like that in my tank.
> 
> Does that staurogyne species grow tall enough that you will be able to extend it up towards the right corner?


Agree on the crypt, it's gonna be too symmetrical with the lagenandra no matter where it's placed

Prety happy with how the moss log came out. It will increase in diameter as it grows out. Also gotta moss the two side logs as soon as I figure out their final position 

The tallest staurogyne in the back is about as tall as Ive let it get without cutting it. It does start to branch but doesnt go crazy like Hygro siamesis or rugosa or something like that. Otherwise it stays perfectly vertical and well behaved. Im sure it could be kept 12-15 inches no problem. It also grows fairly slow which is awesome

Ideally I think it needs to be about 3" taller in the very back, a little over halfway up. I want it to be distinctly shorter than the Limno and Rotala mac in front of it, sorta disappearing behind the mac to give some depth and separation


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Here is a good example, Helanthium bolivianum Angustifolia, the tall grass in the front left corner. It spreads via runners like a Val. I keep the ones I see pinched off but there's usually a couple growing up behind the moss wall that I dont see.
> 
> Here's one I pulled out today, about a foot tall and never seen a ray of light in its life. It's a little pale but otherwise perfectly healthy


Interesting thought. 

Similar example is the Quadricostatus that I sent you. I found those plants growing back behind the driftwood, under a thick canopy of Pogo K. Still attached to the mother plant, and getting very little to no light at all. Still nice and healthy and growing.

And I do appreciate hearing your thoughts on how you scape your tank. Shows how seriously you contemplate each placement.............makes my method look like a monkey throwing darts.:grin2:

On a side note, are you going to enter the contest again this year?? I mean, that is a lot of work and stress to get things just right......wondering if you have the stamina to do it again??? Hoping so.


----------



## Immortal1

Curious @Greggz - is that a lightning bolt scar on the plant wizards hand or am I just imagining things....


----------



## burr740

COLORUPICUS UNSTUNTIARMUS!! Where's Hermione when you need her??



Greggz said:


> On a side note, are you going to enter the contest again this year?? I mean, that is a lot of work and stress to get things just right......wondering if you have the stamina to do it again??? Hoping so.


That's the plan if all goes well.

Meticulously obsessing over every little detail? Yep, for sure. 

Stressful? Nah, because I like doing it. I think of it like being an artist with a medium that's alive, one that is constantly changing and also easy to change into something completely different.

Definitely something you have to enjoy doing though. Like the trimming and maintenance aspect. If it feels like some dreadful chore then it's probably not the right hobby for a person, at least not the high-light w/fast-moving plants side of it. There's plenty of different tank types you can have with various degrees of workload involved

Personally I find it all relaxing and meditative....most of the time


----------



## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> Curious @Greggz - is that a lightning bolt scar on the plant wizards hand or am I just imagining things....


Yeah you might be on to something......would explain a lot things!:wink2:



burr740 said:


> COLORUPICUS UNSTUNTIARMUS!!


LOL good one Burr. But even if you could, conjuring might work on Pantanal but I'm guessing Sunset would just laugh at you! You might need "the Force" for that one!!:grin2:


----------



## burr740

Got a few Myrio red stem tied with a lead weight at the bottom waiting to go out Monday, been floating them around in the Dutch to see how it looks. 

Pretty sure it just made the A-team. Hate to lose the Bacopa but sticking with Dutch rules and only having 12-14 species I think this is better option










Other scape thoughts: Stuck a few Limnophila chinesis around to see how that looks. It's good but there's already plenty of big-leaved greens. Probably gonna move the Acmella to the left side and try Hyptis Lorentziana in the middle

Gonna bring the Hygro siamesis all the way down to the right meeting the log. Then have Hyptis peeking up behind. Tentative plan at least

Pantanal looking SWEET in the farm. (tallest two are catching a little current)



















Wish I could find a place for it in the dutch. It would just about have to be a focal point though. Maybe next scape 

Changed up the flow in the 50 to have better mist dispersion. Put the filter output in the back, pointed at the front glass approximately 1/3 of the way, aimed downward. Added a powerhead in front aimed at the surface blowing straight across.

The mist is real










Not sure im gonna like this in the main tank. What Im probably gonna do is run the atomizer into the current reactor. Never tried it but Ive read where mist going into a reactor will give a lot of mist coming out. 

Something about the micro bubbles not dissolving as well as big ones. So Im thinking it might cut way down on the mist but not eliminate it entirely, which would be ideal.

I may put the Sera back on the 50 and see how it works having both. Test run while waiting on the other atomizers to get here.


----------



## Jeff5614

burr740 said:


> Got a few Myrio red stem tied with a lead weight at the bottom waiting to go out Monday, been floating them around in the Dutch to see how it looks.
> 
> Pretty sure it just made the A-team. Hate to lose the Bacopa but sticking with Dutch rules and only having 12-14 species I think this is better option
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Other scape thoughts: Stuck a few Limnophila chinesis around to see how that looks. It's good but there's already plenty of big-leaved greens. Probably gonna move the Acmella to the left side and try Hyptis Lorentziana in the middle
> 
> Gonna bring the Hygro siamesis all the way down to the right meeting the log. Then have Hyptis peeking up behind. Tentative plan at least
> 
> Pantanal looking SWEET in the farm. (tallest two are catching a little current)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wish I could find a place for it in the dutch. It would just about have to be a focal point though. Maybe next scape
> 
> Changed up the flow in the 50 to have better mist dispersion. Put the filter output in the back, pointed at the front glass approximately 1/3 of the way, aimed downward. Added a powerhead in front aimed at the surface blowing straight across.
> 
> The mist is real
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure im gonna like this in the main tank. What Im probably gonna do is run the atomizer into the current reactor. Never tried it but Ive read where mist going into a reactor will give a lot of mist coming out.
> 
> Something about the micro bubbles not dissolving as well as big ones. So Im thinking it might cut way down on the mist but not eliminate it entirely, which would be ideal.
> 
> I may put the Sera back on the 50 and see how it works having both. Test run while waiting on the other atomizers to get here.


Is that an UpAqua atomizer or one of the JBL's that you've ordered? I couldn't handle that look either. I feel silly telling people I don't have a tank full of mist when I see posts like this. I think I must be pushing less CO2 than most who try them or maybe it's due to where it enters the tank. 

Back to the JBL's, I found this thread on UKAPS, mentioning some users have added a second o-ring to one at the bottom of the chamber because I think they're saying that CO2 gets past the original seal, bypassing the ceramic and just exiting into the tank in larger bubbles. See post # 23. My English isn't the best though, East Tennessean is my native tongue.

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/jbl-proflora-direct-atomizer-users.50703/page-2


----------



## Greggz

Nice update Joe. 

That Myrio red stem does look nice against the moss wall, but like you said you hate to lose the Bacopa, as yours always look spectacular. Either way, tank is looking fantastic as usual.

Glad you posted a picture of the mist. I was about to pull the trigger on an in tank diffuser, but think I will wait now to see how this goes for you. 

And yes, that Pantanal looks healthy and happy. If it would just grow a little slower, it would be a lot easier to manage.


----------



## burr740

Jeff5614 said:


> Is that an UpAqua atomizer or one of the JBL's that you've ordered? I couldn't handle that look either. I feel silly telling people I don't have a tank full of mist when I see posts like this. I think I must be pushing less CO2 than most who try them or maybe it's due to where it enters the tank.
> 
> Back to the JBL's, I found this thread on UKAPS, mentioning some users have added a second o-ring to one the bottom of the chamber because I think they're saying that CO2 gets past the original seal, bypassing the ceramic and just exiting into the tank in larger bubbles. See post # 23. My English isn't the best though, East Tennessean is my native tongue.
> 
> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/jbl-proflora-direct-atomizer-users.50703/page-2


This is one of the Up-aquas. The JBLs havent arrived from Germany yet, they're going on the 75s.

That's an interesting link. Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye out for that.

Being from N AL... Im probably fluent in East Tennessean


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Good move on Myrio Red Stem. Make sure it doesn't get symmetrical in # of stems, volume, and height with the Limno indica. My inclination would be to keep the Limno indica at that height and let a couple of Myrio Reds to reach the surface. Bummed about losing the Bacopa, but I think it's the right thing to do. 

See if you can nudge the Gratiola a couple of inches to the left. It's still a bit central...and almost too tall. 

Any possibility of extending moss in front of the Lagenandra? Right now, the Lag and Limno area does not feel deep (front to back). Another way to fix that might be to put a couple of shorter Limno indica stems in the front. And/or place a few really short S. spathulata stems in front of the Lag. Or a small patch of Monte Carlo if you're not too high on species count. 

Let 53B get bushy at it gets closer to the surface. 

Overall, I think you're headed to another #1 spot in the Dutch category.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> This is one of the Up-aquas. The JBLs havent arrived from Germany yet, they're going on the 75s.
> 
> That's an interesting link. Thanks, I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
> 
> Being from N AL... Im probably fluent in East Tennessean







i see 2 o-rings on the ceramic piece, unless in looking ta the wrong spot lol


----------



## burr740

Thanks Vin, good stuff. Im on board with all that



Saxa Tilly said:


> Any possibility of extending moss in front of the Lagenandra? Right now, the Lag and Limno area does not feel deep (front to back). Another way to fix that might be to put a couple of shorter Limno indica stems in the front. And/or place a few really short S. spathulata stems in front of the Lag. Or a small patch of Monte Carlo if you're not too high on species count.


The Lagenandra is currently two plants. It's about to be one which will give me more room to work with.

I like the idea of a Monte carlo patch in front, had actually been thinking about something to use.

But... Im currently at 14 species, which is technically allowed but 15 might be a deduction. Might do it anyway. And depending on how the Mini aromatica/blyxa area works out that may evolve into a single species right there.



Saxa Tilly said:


> Overall, I think you're headed to another #1 spot in the Dutch category.


Well let's not get carried away! :icon_eek: Long way to go yet...


Planted the Myrio red, added a few small Blyxa japonica and Hyptis lorentziana in the middle.











The Hyptis color might actually be too bold to have in the middle. I wasnt expecting the purple to rock so hard....damn T5s! :red_mouth 

Will have to see how it looks when the Hygro thickens up. That may cushion the blow some with more separation between the L red


----------



## burr740

Made a video to better show the mist in the 50 gal. It's not as bad now as it was those first few days.

This is 25 cc/min. Vid came out a little dark but maybe you can get the picture







And while I was at it...


----------



## OreoP

Joe, which T5HO tubes are you using now? I have a combination of 6 tubes but I find it too "yellow" - any suggestions to tone down the yellow?


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Made a video to better show the mist in the 50 gal. It's not as bad now as it was those first few days.
> 
> This is 25 cc/min. Vid came out a little dark but maybe you can get the picture


Thanks for posting this Joe. Helped me make up my mind on trying a diffuser.

And it's nice to see a video of the 75. Puts it in a bit of a different perspective. Honestly I have hardly ever noticed the fish in your pictures. Cool to see a little movement of both fish and plants and the tank look "alive". 

Very, very nice and makes me want to step up my game. 

By the way.........I am subscriber numero uno to your channel.....beat the rush!!!:grin2:


----------



## Grobbins48

Great to see the live action shots, and how you position water flow, and your filters effect on the surface. Makes me want to get a little more flow going on in my 55 tank, now just to find the right powerhead/ wavemaker.

I was thinking the same about the fish too! Looking great, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Thanks Vin, good stuff. Im on board with all that
> 
> The Lagenandra is currently two plants. It's about to be one which will give me more room to work with.
> 
> I like the idea of a Monte carlo patch in front, had actually been thinking about something to use.
> 
> But... Im currently at 14 species, which is technically allowed but 15 might be a deduction. Might do it anyway. And depending on how the Mini aromatica/blyxa area works out that may evolve into a single species right there.
> 
> Planted the Myrio red, added a few small Blyxa japonica and Hyptis lorentziana in the middle.
> 
> The Hyptis color might actually be too bold to have in the middle. I wasnt expecting the purple to rock so hard....damn T5s! :red_mouth
> 
> Will have to see how it looks when the Hygro thickens up. That may cushion the blow some with more separation between the L red


Random thoughts:

I vote for keeping both Lagenandra, but keeping fewer leaves on either plant. I often find that gives a nicer 'coverage'. 
Nice move on the Myrio Red. Always nice to have a off-green bottle brush look. 
I suspect the Hyptis that close to the center and purple will backfire for being, well, too central and too purple. If that happens, may be extend the 53B into that spot. 
I have a feeling you will end up going with either the Blyxa or the Limno Mini. From a leaf shape and color pov, you need Blyxa more in that spot. 
See if you can stair-step the Acmella so you see more leaves and less stem. Unless that's the idea - to show more stem. If you want to show more stem, I should have sent you Bergia capensis or some Lindernia hyssopifolia. May still have some.


----------



## burr740

Just grabbed 7 Corys from the LFS. Albinos arent my favorite species but they stand out well on a black sub.










*Fun fact:* According to traditional Dutch rules a tank should have livestock native to all levels of the tank, bottom, middle and top



Greggz said:


> And it's nice to see a video of the 75. Puts it in a bit of a different perspective. Honestly I have hardly ever noticed the fish in your pictures. Cool to see a little movement of both fish and plants and the tank look "alive".


Thanks man. The fish had just been fed a few minutes ago. The food is gone but they're still darting around all hyper looking for it. Normally they're a lot more chilled out.



OreoP said:


> Joe, which T5HO tubes are you using now? I have a combination of 6 tubes but I find it too "yellow" - any suggestions to tone down the yellow?


Front to back Trulumen Flora, Powerveg 633, ATI purp,

and one of these 5900Ks. Those are really good bulbs, high cri, very crisp and clean looking. Also have a 5000K on an other tank.

(the little leds on the left are night lights)











To tone down the yellow you either need to eliminate it's source or add something to counterbalance.

ATI purple is good for cooling things down. Or even a blue actinic if you have a really warm combo, like a 3000K or two in the mix.

Some 6500Ks are to me a very poor yellowish green. So it may be as simple as finding a better full spectrum tube. Different brands all have a slightly different look.



Saxa Tilly said:


> Random thoughts:
> 
> I vote for keeping both Lagenandra, but keeping fewer leaves on either plant. I often find that gives a nicer 'coverage'.
> Nice move on the Myrio Red. Always nice to have a off-green bottle brush look.
> I suspect the Hyptis that close to the center and purple will backfire for being, well, too central and too purple. If that happens, may be extend the 53B into that spot.
> I have a feeling you will end up going with either the Blyxa or the Limno Mini. From a leaf shape and color pov, you need Blyxa more in that spot.
> See if you can stair-step the Acmella so you see more leaves and less stem. Unless that's the idea - to show more stem. If you want to show more stem, I should have sent you Bergia capensis or some Lindernia hyssopifolia. May still have some.


Too late for the second Lagenandra, its already on the fb auction block. But I get what you're saying, never considered that actually.

Doing away with the Hyptis and extending the 53B could work. Instead of having another species where the hyptis is I could do buces on the wall in a little triangle sort of off centered to the right

Definitely need the blyxa worse than the aromatica, gotta have some grass. Another thing the aromatica is best with something in front of it. The way it grows you gotta keep a line of very very short ones across the front or it winds up being a dark shadow. Last year's entry had this problem because I'd yet to figure out how to fix it.

Acmella needs more stems and shaping better, for sure. I dont like the "hollow" look. These are just what was in the middle moved over. I have a bunch of shorties in another tank, so no problem there. Managing a high number of them is really a pain. They dont grow extremely fast it's just tedious as hell replanting them just right. The color they bring to the table is hard to beat though.


----------



## Grobbins48

I saw your video on YouTube for the leaking Dwyer. Are you able to fix it or is it now trash?

I guess I never considered checking around the dial, I always just checked the back side. Now I have something else to go do!


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> I saw your video on YouTube for the leaking Dwyer. Are you able to fix it or is it now trash?
> 
> I guess I never considered checking around the dial, I always just checked the back side. Now I have something else to go do!



Hah, the list never ends does it?

That was a used flow meter I was trying out from someone else. I unscrewed the knob all the way and cleaned the shaft and inside real good with rubbing alcohol and a lint-free cloth. Then lubed it up good with silicone grease (there's a rubber o-ring on the shaft)

That fixed it....for about 8 hours. Then it started leaking again


----------



## NightHedgie

burr740 said:


> Weekly totals
> 
> NO3 - 30 ppm
> PO4 - 3.5 ppm
> *K - 32 ppm*
> Ca - 35-40 ppm (tap)
> Mg - 14 ppm (3-4 in tap)
> 
> *Im changing NO3 to 25 but just started this week. Its been 30 for the past couple of months
> 
> Immediately following the weekly water change I dose 18 ppm KNO3, 2.4 ppm P, *12 ppm K2SO4* and 10 ppm MgSO4 (epsom salt)
> 
> Then two more doses through the week of 6 KNO3 and .8 P.
> 
> If that sounds confusing I use a macro solution with 6 ppm KNO3 and .8 ppm KH2PO4 per dose. After the water change I give it three doses worth.
> 
> Front loading macros has been working really well for the past few months (dosing heavy right after the water change then two smaller doses through the week)
> 
> The levels stay more consistent instead of taking a big dip early in the week like they do with a standard EI routine of three equal doses.
> 
> Its a subtle difference but everything seems to do better


Hi, Just wondering, is the K 32ppm or 12ppm? :nerd:


----------



## MCFC

@NightHedgie - There's K in KNO3 and KH2PO4 as well...


----------



## NightHedgie

Silly me ... my mistake :nerd: thanks


----------



## burr740

NightHedgie said:


> Silly me ... my mistake :nerd: thanks



Yeah that's total K from everything.


----------



## NightHedgie

:nerd: if u don't mind me asking. What is your current Micros regime? :smile2::grin2:


----------



## Dempsey

burr740 said:


> Made a video to better show the mist in the 50 gal. It's not as bad now as it was those first few days.
> 
> This is 25 cc/min. Vid came out a little dark but maybe you can get the picture
> 
> Up Aqua CO2 Atimizer Mist - YouTube
> 
> 
> And while I was at it...
> 
> 75 Gallon Dutch, early stages - YouTube


It's about time you started showing videos! Looks awesome man!


----------



## burr740

NightHedgie said:


> :nerd: if u don't mind me asking. What is your current Micros regime? :smile2::grin2:


Did both of these daily over the last couple of months, couldnt tell any difference

Fe - .15 ppm
Mn - .06 ppm
B - .03 ppm
Zn - .042 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Stronger Fe version

Fe - .2 ppm
Mn - .08 ppm
B - .035 ppm
Zn - .05 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Currently trying the .2 ppm version 4-5 times a week instead of daily. No difference so far after a couple of weeks. 



Dempsey said:


> It's about time you started showing videos! Looks awesome man!


Thanks! Ive never actually shot many videos of the tank for some reason. It was sort of a new experience for me too sitting back and watching a video of it. Gave me somewhat of a different perspective.


----------



## burr740

Think Im gonna try it without the side walls for a while. 

Took them out to trim the other night and all that vacant space was too much to resist. The sides grow a lot faster than the back because they get brighter light.

The wall structure itself is 3/4" thick. The moss quickly adds another 2", which soon turns into 3-4" if I let it go very long.

So at best the tank is only 3 1/2 feet wide with the moss in place instead of 4. That's a pretty big difference!

Brightened this up to show it better. The Nymphoides is a solid 3" off the side glass. And the moss had poofed out so much it was pushing the Mac variegateds over.










I'd been noticing you cant even really see the moss on the sides much now with the stronger curtain plants in front, so Im gonna work to keep it covered and see how it goes. May put it back when competition time rolls around


Ludwigia rubin


----------



## FreshPuff

I was practically bug-eyed watching the video. Wow, your plants look incredible. Nice jobroud:


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


>


Burr what is the low growing plant forming the street? Some type of hygro I presume??


----------



## Sarpijk

Looks like standard Hygrophila Polysperma!


----------



## burr740

Staurogyne spatulata


----------



## zmartin

I’ve just read this a whole journal and mighty impressed. Can’t believe the bad luck you’ve had with tanks - swapping two out.

I also think it’s fantastic that you are willing to share so openly. I’ve only had a planted aquarium for six months and this thread has accelerated my learning. Particularly re: tank cleanliness. 

Thank you. Don’t worry I won’t ask if you are using any root tabs or O+. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

zmartin said:


> Thank you. Don’t worry I won’t ask if you are using any root tabs or O+.


Lol, it's a miracle!

*Brief update on the latest haps*

Put the moss sides back in place, it was never gonna work without them.

It's a little rough atm, as usual I sold the best of it and kept just enough ratty material to start over with. Plus it spent two weeks in a zip-loc bag

So there's some brown areas here and there, should be fine once it takes off again. 










Also redid the back while I was at it, looks like I missed a spot or two. None of that'll show when it thickens up.

I redid the back because fishing line doesnt hold as tight as sewing thread. Fishing line is easier to work with, quicker, but every stitch wants to relax back and its hard to keep it tight. Thread is more tedious to work with but it tightens up good. As it grows out I like being able to reach in there and pull off chunks without leaving a gaping hole. So thread works better. Just make sure to use nylon or polyester so it doesnt rot away. 100% cotton will disintegrate after a couple of months.

*Also* an interesting thing happened when I removed the side panels. Couple days later I go in there, its about 5 hours into the photo period and the tank is pearling like crazy. It's usually going pretty good by then but this was like a rolling boil.

So Im like, hmm.....sweet!?? Then I notice two dead cories belly up on the bottom. The rest huddled up motionless in back. All the other the fish seem fine.

Checks CO2. Tank is still full, flow meter is where it's supposed to be, skimmers are on. So I test the PH and it's .2 lower than its supposed to be.

The only thing that changed is the moss walls being gone. Is the moss sucking up THAT much CO2? Apparently so, its the only explanation. If you saw a few pages back that big pile that came just from the sides, there really is a ton of moss when it grows out 3" thick.

So anyway I turned the flow meter down from 50 to 40 (where the other 75 stays) and things have been normal ever since. I always thought this tank used more co2 because it has two skimmers instead of just one, but it looks like the moss plays a big role too

Makes me wonder how much impact the moss has on other nutrients. Crazy huh?


*The best way to start a carpet:* Plant the absolute smallest pieces you have the patience for. 










This is HC but the same applies to everything. Monte carlo, glosso, marsilea, hair grass, whatever. It'll spread faster and grow more evenly.

A lot of time you see folks planting huge golf ball size plugs an inch or two apart. Dont do that. You'll get a lot of die off in the middle and it takes longer to spread. And when it does spread it'll be lumpy and uneven. The other benefit of using small pieces is it saves money. There's no need to buy carpeting plants in large portions. That area above took less than a 2" square.

*In other news:*

User @jbvamos sends me a PM the other day asking if I'd like some Aquasoil to try. He had some left over from his 180 and offered it to me as a gift.

I said sure, how much is it? Oh probably enough for a 20 gal or so. 

Im thinking cool, I can do a few pots in the farm tanks @LRJ style or maybe set up a 10 to experiment with.

Well, little did I know he meant three whole bags of the stuff. The BIG bags!!










What a guy, eh? Thanks a lot man, I really appreciate it!

So now the plan is to swap out the 50 gal entirely with new Aquasoil. Probably over the course of next week

This will be my first time using Aquasoil, gonna see what all the fuss is about....


----------



## jbvamos

I look forward to the 50 gallon journal. Hopefully you have pounds of P on hand!


----------



## jbvamos

> The only thing that changed is the moss walls being gone. Is the moss sucking up THAT much CO2? Apparently so, its the only explanation. If you saw a few pages back that big pile that came just from the sides, there really is a ton of moss when it grows out 3" thick.


Besides flow, I think this is why a big hack on the tank helps so much.


----------



## Greggz

Burr nice post. Lot of things going on there.

First thought is the moss using more CO2 might be another plus for a CO2 controller. Dropping to same pH regardless of plant density might make some sense.

And nutrient uptake and plant density is also an interesting thought. Maybe hacking down a tank makes more nutrients readily available??

And I am really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the Amazonia.

Now if the plants start growing right out of the tank Jumanji style, there is going to be a run on the stuff. Part of me is hoping not as I really don't want to start over again!!:wink2::wink2:

Will be very interesting to follow.


----------



## burr740

jbvamos said:


> Hopefully you have pounds of P on hand!


Have you been dosing P from the start? The consensus Ive been reading is to only dose K and Fe for the first month or two. That's what I plan to do regardless how much P shows up in the wc. That is unless the plants start screaming for something



Greggz said:


> Burr nice post. Lot of things going on there.
> 
> First thought is the moss using more CO2 might be another plus for a CO2 controller. Dropping to same pH regardless of plant density might make some sense.
> 
> And nutrient uptake and plant density is also an interesting thought. Maybe hacking down a tank makes more nutrients readily available??
> 
> And I am really looking forward to seeing how it goes with the Amazonia.
> 
> Now if the plants start growing right out of the tank Jumanji style, there is going to be a run on the stuff. Part of me is hoping not as I really don't want to start over again!!:wink2::wink2:
> 
> Will be very interesting to follow.


Yeah Ive thought about a pH controller. It'd be useful on the sand tanks where the KH stays the same all the time. Depending on how this aquasoil works, if I decide to stick with sand I may look into doing that on the main tank. Cant use one with aquasoil or any substrate that alters KH (I know you know this but others may not) 

As far as the aquasoil I expect a honeymoon period where everything grows gangbusters for a few months, then not a whole lot of difference. Except for a few stubborn species I've always suspected would do better in a lower KH or having an acidic root base.

Who knows. Im excited to see the difference though. I told jbvamos he either just became my new best friend or went straight to the top of my sh*t list. The jury is still out on which 

I just hope it's not too dusty or a pita moving things around. I know it wont compare to sand in that regard


----------



## Maryland Guppy

I reckon me using capped soil can't be that much different.

After 1 month I began keeping water column levels where I like them.
Some days required a 2x dose of macros.
Micros of a low dose once a week still.


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Have you been dosing P from the start? The consensus Ive been reading is to only dose K and Fe for the first month or two. That's what I plan to do regardless how much P shows up in the wc. That is unless the plants start screaming for something
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah Ive thought about a pH controller. It'd be useful on the sand tanks where the KH stays the same all the time. Depending on how this aquasoil works, if I decide to stick with sand I may look into doing that on the main tank. Cant use one with aquasoil or any substrate that alters KH (I know you know this but others may not)
> 
> As far as the aquasoil I expect a honeymoon period where everything grows gangbusters for a few months, then not a whole lot of difference. Except for a few stubborn species I've always suspected would do better in a lower KH or having an acidic root base.
> 
> Who knows. Im excited to see the difference though. I told jbvamos he either just became my new best friend or went straight to the top of my sh*t list. The jury is still out on which
> 
> I just hope it's not too dusty or a pita moving things around. I know it wont compare to sand in that regard




Plants won’t “stick” as well as sand when replanting unless you have a deep enough layer. With time aqua soil breaks down into dust and a major replanting will cause a day of cloudy water and your moss may collect some of the dust as it settles. Mild annoyances but I think you’ll like it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fablau

jbvamos said:


> Besides flow, I think this is why a big hack on the tank helps so much.




Could also be that the Moss was producing enough O2 to compensate high Co2? Or the two things combined..


----------



## burr740

Atomizer update

Here's the JBL Pro Flora on the 75 farm tank. It produces a very fine, almost invisible mist, but its also blowing out some very big bubbles. I believe it's because the regulator has a set working pressure around 40 psi, and JBL recommends 20 for the atomizer (iirc). 

The plan is to put the reactor back on and run both. Im thinking that might kill the big bubbles and still allow some mist through.

Havent tried the other one on the main tank yet, probably will at some point. No difference in plant growth that I can tell, either here or in the 50 with the Up Aqua. 

@SingAlongWithTsing


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Yeah Ive thought about a pH controller. It'd be useful on the sand tanks where the KH stays the same all the time. Depending on how this aquasoil works, if I decide to stick with sand I may look into doing that on the main tank. Cant use one with aquasoil or any substrate that alters KH (I know you know this but others may not)
> 
> As far as the aquasoil I expect a honeymoon period where everything grows gangbusters for a few months, then not a whole lot of difference. Except for a few stubborn species I've always suspected would do better in a lower KH or having an acidic root base.


you can always pre charge the aqua soil right? like just dump it in a tote or something and just pour your tap in to let it soak up enough Ca so it doesnt dent your kH too hard the first few weeks.



> Who knows. Im excited to see the difference though. I told jbvamos he either just became my new best friend or went straight to the top of my sh*t list. The jury is still out on which
> 
> I just hope it's not too dusty or a pita moving things around. I know it wont compare to sand in that regard


if the aquasoil doesnt work out for you can always sell it off :wink2:


----------



## Grobbins48

Great update, and very curious to see where you end up with the aquasoil. It will be great to learn from your experience, especially since I have been running BDBS like you and a bunch of others. I would have no idea where to even start with that stuff!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> The plan is to put the reactor back on and run both. Im thinking that might kill the big bubbles and still allow some mist through.


So you are going to feed the CO2 into the Atomizer then into the reactor? Won't you just get fully dissolved CO2 then? 

And sounds so far like no real difference between mist and dissolved? Glad you are doing this. I was considering trying it myself......so thanks!:wink2:

I will say the videos are very helpful, because the bubbles blowing around probably would have been a deal breaker for me. How do you feel about them in person???


----------



## LRJ

Greggz said:


> I will say the videos are very helpful, because the bubbles blowing around probably would have been a deal breaker for me.


Yup. I used to use an atomizer before I switched over to reactors. I don't miss the sight of that mist one bit. But I'm watching with interest to see what happens here and whether it ends up growing better plants.

Also @burr740, interested to see how you like the Aquasoil. I used that for several years as well. It was pretty good at first, but once it started breaking down...man, much less fun to maintain a Dutch tank when you have to guess at where you're putting the plants, lol. There's a honeymoon phase for sure though.


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> you can always pre charge the aqua soil right? like just dump it in a tote or something and just pour your tap in to let it soak up enough Ca so it doesnt dent your kH too hard the first few weeks.


Yeah Im just gonna put it in the tank, add plants then daily water changes for the first week, every other day for the second week, 2x week for a week or two. Something like that.

Ive been reading up and this seems like overall the best way to go.

And apparently Im gonna need Purigen or charcoal for the first month or so



Greggz said:


> So you are going to feed the CO2 into the Atomizer then into the reactor? Won't you just get fully dissolved CO2 then?


I dont think so because mist into a reactor tends to blow straight out the other end, unlike big bubbles. Something about the buoyancy and surface area of big bubbles.

The atomizer is going where the T fitting is here, except further back. This this is an older pic of a different reactor just to illustrate












Greggz said:


> I will say the videos are very helpful, because the bubbles blowing around probably would have been a deal breaker for me. How do you feel about them in person???


The Up atomizer in the 50 gal would be unbearable on a main display tank. In fact Im gonna put the Sera 1000 back on here pretty soon. There's no definite improvement in growth or co2 use and this glued together thing makes me nervous as hell considering your experience and many others.

The JBL mist is so fine you can barely see it, even in pics. The big bubbles you see in the vid I believe are a result of too much working pressure pushing co2 through the membrane too fast. But as I said I cant adjust the wp on this particular reg. Wont know until I try it but if not for the big bubbles I'd really like this JBL



LRJ said:


> but once it started breaking down...man, much less fun to maintain a Dutch tank when you have to guess at where you're putting the plants, lol. There's a honeymoon phase for sure though.


That's what Im afraid of lol. I really dont expect to switch the main tanks over. Sand is so easy to work with and too many plants grow just fine as it is.

But it's an interesting experiment Ive been wanting to try for a while. If nothing else it should help let me grow a few things that prefer softer water better


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Start the Aquasoil in a few buckets ahead of time.
Way easier to dump water off the top and avoid ammonia burn.


----------



## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> Start the Aquasoil in a few buckets ahead of time.
> Way easier to dump water off the top and avoid ammonia burn.


I may let the tank run empty for a day or two before adding plants, do a couple water changes...but I aint fooling with no buckets. 

From what I can gather ammonia burn mainly happens when people dont do the right amount of water changes.

But who knows I may kill a bunch of stuff!


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> I dont think so because mist into a reactor tends to blow straight out the other end, unlike big bubbles. Something about the buoyancy and surface area of big bubbles.
> 
> The atomizer is going where the T fitting is here, except further back. This this is an older pic of a different reactor just to illustrate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Up atomizer in the 50 gal would be unbearable on a main display tank. In fact Im gonna put the Sera 1000 back on here pretty soon. There's no definite improvement in growth or co2 use and this glued together thing makes me nervous as hell considering your experience and many others.
> 
> The JBL mist is so fine you can barely see it, even in pics. The big bubbles you see in the vid I believe are a result of too much working pressure pushing co2 through the membrane too fast. But as I said I cant adjust the wp on this particular reg. Wont know until I try it but if not for the big bubbles I'd really like this JBL


any idea if an atomizer would work just as efficiently if its horizontal?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> any idea if an atomizer would work just as efficiently if its horizontal?


I dont think position matters much with an atomizer. The reactor obviously needs to be vertical


----------



## jbvamos

> Have you been dosing P from the start? The consensus Ive been reading is to only dose K and Fe for the first month or two. That's what I plan to do regardless how much P shows up in the wc. That is unless the plants start screaming for something


Yes I dosed P from the start in the 180. I was adding about 5ppm per day, but I was also doing a ton of water changes. I'm now down to about 5ppm every other day with two water changes per week, about 60-70 percent. When I test for P, it's normally about 2ppm now. I'm curious to see your results without dosing P. I started a 40 gallon about 3-4 weeks ago and I am NOT dosing P in this tank. Big difference, between the two tanks. The 180 had no ugly stage at all, No algae, never have to clean the glass etc. The 40 has a decent amount of algae, glass needs to be wiped alot, plant health is no where near as good as the 180. I prefer to have a measurable amount of P in the water column. In my case, that required large amounts of daily dosing to achieve that.



> I may let the tank run empty for a day or two before adding plants, do a couple water changes...but I aint fooling with no buckets.
> 
> From what I can gather ammonia burn mainly happens when people dont do the right amount of water changes.
> 
> But who knows I may kill a bunch of stuff!


Just stick with the water changes, that's all you need. Add aquasoil, plant, do water changes. It's as simple as that. nothing will melt on you. When you uproot plants for trimming or rescaping, just pull them up slowly and gently. I have no issues whatsover moving stuff around. stay on top of the co2. You will need very little in the beginning and as time goes on and the soil loses it's buffering capacity you will need more and more.


----------



## burr740

Swapping the substrate in the 50 today, almost chickened out but its on now

Water drains as I type :icon_eek










Other news:

Installed the Sera reactor back on the 50 and got rid of the atomizer.

Added the reactor back to the 75 along with the JBL atomizer. This made a BIG difference, no more bubbles, only a very fine mist that you have to get real close to even see, but its there. 

PH dropped two more tenths, cant tell cc/min because the flow meter's ball is stuck (has been for a while) But I did turn it down some, guess would be its now in the upper 30s

Added the other JBL to the Dutch, same now as above. On this tank it didnt make a noticeable difference in PH because the reactor was already there. Only difference is now there's a extreme fine mist, and no more rumbling bubble in the reactor for the last 3 hours of the day


----------



## Wobblebonk

Did the package arrive okay? I hope it didn't leak / die, yours had so much more uhhh packaging around everything. I'm gonna be in Vegas this weekend but if I failed at shipping I can resend when I get back...


----------



## chayos00

burr740 said:


> PH dropped two more tenths, cant tell cc/min because the flow meter's ball is stuck (has been for a while) But I did turn it down some, guess would be its now in the upper 30s


I had the same issue with mine getting stuck. I used a mag float to tap on the side of it and got it unstuck this way. Plus I let it run wide open a bit as I had some moisture in the lines that I could see. After letting it go wide open for a bit I've yet to have it stick again on mine. Hope you can get yours unstuck!


----------



## burr740

Wobblebonk said:


> Did the package arrive okay? I hope it didn't leak / die, yours had so much more uhhh packaging around everything. I'm gonna be in Vegas this weekend but if I failed at shipping I can resend when I get back...


Yeah they arrived fine, I meant to mssg you on barr report. I can tell by the size of the stem they are some very healthy plants. The tops are starting to un-shrivel from shipping. Here's about half of them temporarily bunched with lead weights.










Filling up










Used 2 1/2 bags. Its about 2" in front and 3" in back


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Other news:
> 
> Installed the Sera reactor back on the 50 and got rid of the atomizer.
> 
> Added the reactor back to the 75 along with the JBL atomizer. This made a BIG difference, no more bubbles, only a very fine mist that you have to get real close to even see, but its there.
> 
> PH dropped two more tenths, cant tell cc/min because the flow meter's ball is stuck (has been for a while) But I did turn it down some, guess would be its now in the upper 30s
> 
> Added the other JBL to the Dutch, same now as above. On this tank it didnt make a noticeable difference in PH because the reactor was already there. Only difference is now there's a extreme fine mist, and no more rumbling bubble in the reactor for the last 3 hours of the day


think there's something wonky with my pro flora. my pH drop weaken recently, instead of the 1.5~1.6 drop I get from the reactor it's only 1.3~1.4 with the atomizer now (used to match the reactor). dunno if it's weather related, been in the 100~118F for most of the week lol.


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> think there's something wonky with my pro flora. my pH drop weaken recently, instead of the 1.5~1.6 drop I get from the reactor it's only 1.3~1.4 with the atomizer now (used to match the reactor). dunno if it's weather related, been in the 100~118F for most of the week lol.



Check it for leaks? The screw cap that secures the co2 line is kinda feeble. Both mine immediately stripped out and barley hold. Ive ordered some tiny hose clamps to go in their place. So far neither one has leaked but the co2 line is basically just stuck on by itself.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Yeah they arrived fine, I meant to mssg you on barr report. I can tell by the size of the stem they are some very healthy plants. The tops are starting to un-shrivel from shipping. Here's about half of them temporarily bunched with lead weights.


OK now you have got my attention........what are the new plants???

And really looking forward to seeing how this experiment goes. Problem is, it's a long term experiment, as it's when it ages is when things seem to start changing.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Greggz said:


> OK now you have got my attention........what are the new plants???
> 
> And really looking forward to seeing how this experiment goes. Problem is, it's a long term experiment, as it's when it ages is when things seem to start changing.


looks like ludwigia tornado


----------



## burr740

Yeah Ludwigia curly tornado. Currently holding an audition between it and Didiplis to see which one goes there. 

50 gal Aquasoil, day 4










The planting process was fairly painless. I see what folks mean about plants not "sticking" as well. Takes a little getting used to.

Tentative plan is to follow ADA's recommended routine for dosing, which means only K and Fe for the first couple of months. Actually I cant tell if they mean micros _and_ Fe or just Fe. So far Im giving it the custom micro blend at .1 Fe after each water change, along with 10 ppm K. 

Havent tested anything and dont plan to. Gonna keep up the daily 60% WCs for a week then go to every other day.



















Some plants seem happy, others are a little puckered up. Getting some old growth algae on a couple of things. Vin warned me there'd be a few algae phases the first few weeks. Im sure the plants are having to adjust to the new parameters, what nutrients are available where, etc, so Im not gonna freak out about it....but I wont hesitate to add some P if this keeps up. Its a prime symptom of low macros in the other tanks and P is the only suspect here.











Gratiola viscidula redo

Before










Three piles of short medium and tall










After










Random shot from a 20


----------



## jbvamos

> Some plants seem happy, others are a little puckered up. Getting some old growth algae on a couple of things. Vin warned me there'd be a few algae phases the first few weeks. Im sure the plants are having to adjust to the new parameters, what nutrients are available where, etc, so Im not gonna freak out about it....but I wont hesitate to add some P if this keeps up. Its a prime symptom of low macros in the other tanks and P is the only suspect here.


Theres no need for any algae phases at all in my experience. Two weeks from now you will have diatoms and that should be it if P is dosed. My 180 I dosed P from the start- zero algae from the start. My 40 gallon dosing just K and micro- all sorts of algae and unhappy plants, particularly old growth.

My guess is that wallichi is going to stunt on you very soon. Especially if your adding traces and no P. At least that was my experience.

What I don't understand is with this thinking of no P in the water column brings us back decades. This is how EI started with P being taboo. Barr could grow hard species when others couldn't because his tap was loaded with P. 

You say your not testing anything, Have you tested your KH? That tank should be streaming like crazy soon as the lights turn on, within minutes.


----------



## Greggz

Very interesting Burr. Agree with your comments on adjusting to parameters. In my experience plants adjust over time to what you are providing. Rock the boat and it gets a bit bumpy for a while.

Myself and Maryland Guppy have experienced this. Some things I send him melt in hours, and vice versa (dang S. Repens!!). If they survive the transition they are fine, but some take more time than you would think. 

Like @jbvamos said, I'm guessing you end up adding some P pretty quickly. Those plants have been used to a pretty rich environment, and you know what happens in your main tank if P gets too low. A little rebellion when you deprive them.

Also like the pics of the Gratiola viscidula trim. Beside growing healthy plants, your attention to detail is an important lesson in presentation. When I see some of your pics, I instantly recognize the time it took to get there. It doesn't happen by accident, that is for sure.


----------



## burr740

To P or not to P, that is the question

The thing is I find it hard to believe ADA's prescribed dosing routine is stuck in the 90s when P was considered unnecessary or downright bad.

Most Asian hobbyists dont worry much about fertilization. (Im talking about hobbyists who actually live in Asia). They just grab their Aquasoil and follow ADA instructions and proceed to get on with it.

To me this is a good opportunity to see how that works, which is why Im not dosing any P atm. But Im not dumb enough to sit around watching algae grow for two months without doing something either. 

Im going to give it this first week with no P and see what happens. That's only 3 more days. I may start dosing P after that. Honestly I can see any reason NOT to dose P, but like I said I wanted to follow ADA instructions as close as possible to see what happens.

@Xiaozhuang how would you start out a new tank with aquasoil? Thoughts on dosing P from the start?

@jbvamos its good to know your two different results from dosing P and not dosing it. That alone make me think it's probably a good idea. Also its funny you mention pearling. Yesterday for the first time the plants really started to peal a lot. It was almost like before in the previous set up. The first two days I didnt dose anything, so it'd been two days of K and micros, Im pretty sure that was a welcome addition.

*water changes Ive been doing at night after the photo period, for no particular reason, so the pearling isnt wc related. 

And no I havent tested KH but its something Im very interested in. Figured I'd wait until WCs are less frequent but I may have a look at what happens 24 hours later...


----------



## FreshPuff

I have been using aqua soil for many years and have set up many tanks with it. It is very easy to get an algae outbreak in the beginning with aqua soil. but I think thats mainly because lighting, co2, and ferts aren't really balanced in the beginning for most people. If you start out with healthy plants and plant heavy that really helps too. You have no problem with that :grin2: As far as ferts go, I have found that dosing my normal EI amounts (excluding KNO3 @ half) of ferts in the beginning really helped cut down on algae outbreaks. Now I usually only get minor diatom algae in the beginning. thats it.


----------



## jbvamos

> The thing is I find it hard to believe ADA's prescribed dosing routine is stuck in the 90s when P was considered unnecessary or downright bad.
> 
> Most Asian hobbyists dont worry much about fertilization. (Im talking about hobbyists who actually live in Asia). They just grab their Aquasoil and follow ADA instructions and proceed to get on with it.


I could be wrong but I don't think ADA is pushing the lighting levels and co2 levels that you are. 



> @jbvamos its good to know your two different results from dosing P and not dosing it. That alone make me think it's probably a good idea. Also its funny you mention pearling. Yesterday for the first time the plants really started to peal a lot. It was almost like before in the previous set up. The first two days I didnt dose anything, so it'd been two days of K and micros, Im pretty sure that was a welcome additio


With the water changes and zero bacteria in the tank to suck up oxygen that tank should be a rolling boil right now.



> I have been using aqua soil for many years and have set up many tanks with it. It is very easy to get an algae outbreak in the beginning with aqua soil. but I think thats mainly because lighting, co2, and ferts aren't really balanced in the beginning for most people.


From what i have seen so far It's because you have a rich N source and no P. This can be easily avoided by keeping a measurable amount of P in the water column, even if it's only .05ppm, but even with that low amount requires massive P dosing daily. ei P dosing will not work, The aquasoil will suck up every ppm of P within hours. 5ppm daily is a good start for the first couple months. Yes there is no decimal in front of the 5. From what I have seen it's not necessary at all to go through all these algae outbreaks in the beggining. Diatom phase, Yes, but that happens with any tank. Aquasoil recipe for success: Plant heavily, get co2 and flow correct, Do the recommended water changes, Dose 5ppm kh2po4 daily. Dose K at water change. Micros I don't think you need anything except for Iron, but I was dosing all micros daily. I believe it didnt do anything positive for the tank.

When the diatoms appear, add nerite snails and ottos. Two weeks or less of diatoms and then smooth sailing algae free tank.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Not a lot different than me using capped miracle gro.
ADA will release lots of N, miracle gro releases lots of P.
I have been known to WC to remove the P and add 25ppm of NO3 in a single dose.
Only did thus to have the water column @ levels I was comfortable with.
Dosing the water column should increase the longevity of any "soil" substrate.


----------



## burr740

OK I took a few tests: 5 hours into an 8 hour photo period, about 20 hours since last WC

PH: 5.82 - Normal peak level is in the lower 6.3s. It's 5.82 now running the same injection rate as before

KH: 2.5 - It started turning on the second drop, fully turned on the third. So Im calling that 2.5, it might actually be 2 or 3. Normal KH is 5.5 with the test responding the same way.

According to the PH/KH chart CO2 should be around 60 in both instances. So that makes sense. (not that it's an accurate ppm reading but still a good common reference)

PO4: 0 - Could no longer stand the thought of zero in the water column so I dry dosed 5 ppm. Gonna dose another 5 after tonight's WC then see what it is at the end of tomorrow's photo period


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Follow that gut instinct!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> PO4: 0 - Could no longer stand the thought of zero in the water column so I dry dosed 5 ppm. Gonna dose another 5 after tonight's WC then see what it is at the end of tomorrow's photo period


Well that didn't take long!!:grin2:

But seriously, when you look at Dennis Wong's dosing, it's not really close to ADA. So if the focus is on growing great plants with Aquasoil, and the focus is on the typical plants that you keep, then I think you are on the right track. Keep in mind many of those ADA tanks keep mostly easy to grow and a limited variety of plants. 

And I'd say your instincts regarding growing plants has been rock solid, so I would roll with what seems right, and not so much ADA. 

Once again, this is a great experiment. Just loving the whole thing.


----------



## burr740

Right now my gut instinct is saying I should have my ass beat for breaking down a perfectly balanced system to try this crap, lol

Early days though so we'll see...


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> PO4: 0 - Could no longer stand the thought of zero in the water column so I dry dosed 5 ppm.


Worst case would be it that PO4 doesn't move. Just no need to dose more!


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Right now my gut instinct is saying I should have my ass beat for breaking down a perfectly balanced system to try this crap, lol
> 
> Early days though so we'll see...


Could have just started a new tank... just sayin! Haha


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> Right now my gut instinct is saying I should have my ass beat for breaking down a perfectly balanced system to try this crap,


Sometimes a swift kick is needed!


----------



## jbvamos

> Right now my gut instinct is saying I should have my ass beat for breaking down a perfectly balanced system to try this crap, lol
> 
> Early days though so we'll see...


Everything is going to be fine. It's uncomfortable to try new things to advance your knowledge. I think you will learn to love it



> PO4: 0 - Could no longer stand the thought of zero in the water column so I dry dosed 5 ppm. Gonna dose another 5 after tonight's WC then see what it is at the end of tomorrow's photo period


One either believes or doesn't believe there should be P in the water column. Decades ago very few believed there should be P in the water column, now it's common practice. The way I see it with aquasoil is say you dose EI P from the start, you will still have 0 P in the water column within a few hours. To me, that is still running a tank P limited. I kept upping my P dose till I had a residual amount left before the next dose. This turned out to be 5ppm per day. This will relax after the sponge fills up some but will take awhile. Wether the tank is 1 day old or 10years old the plants need P in the water column to grow to their potential, That I believe and that's why I insisted on keeping a measurable amount of P in the water column. Iam also using a layer of power sand under the aquasoil and I don't know if you used the bag I sent you or not. I'm not sure the effect of powersand on P so if you didn't use it, your P dose might be different. If it was me I would test P for a little bit to see what is being absorbed and then dose enough to have a measurable reading before the next dose. 

Now once you get this tank running better, the next thing will be traces. This is the whole reason I sent you the soil, as I feel there is a better mix to be made and you sir are the Master Micro Mixer. Your new screen name will be "triple M". Seriously though I'm curious what you find with the current blend, mainly Fe/Mn ratio. I think aquasoil has alot of Mn in it, but have no way to prove it. I'm currently using 3:1 i think. The next mix i'm going to 6:1 and have a gut feeling it will work out alot better. You say that alot of people with aquasoil are using the current ratio with good success, but I also think alot of people are fine with just an algae free tank that can grow plants pretty well, and not concerned with perfect growth. 

I think you will grow to love this tank. I would love aquasoil if I knew everything it removed and supplied from/to the water column. Does it absorb K like P? does it leach Mn like N? That I wish I had answers for and a source for cheap lab testing.


----------



## dukydaf

burr740 said:


> Right now my gut instinct is saying I should have my ass beat for breaking down a perfectly balanced system to try this crap, lol
> 
> Early days though so we'll see...


Oh burr,... 

If this keeps up, in a couple of years we'll see you doing dirtied aquariums with full sunlight and screaming at people who do water changes. 

I joke of course, but it will be harder to discern the effect of different mixes as the soil will act as a big buffer (both ways) + large uncertainty. 

Anyway, it will benefit you to have this experience with aquasoil, lots to learn from it.


----------



## burr740

jbvamos said:


> One either believes or doesn't believe there should be P in the water column. Decades ago very few believed there should be P in the water column, now it's common practice. The way I see it with aquasoil is say you dose EI P from the start, you will still have 0 P in the water column within a few hours. To me, that is still running a tank P limited. I kept upping my P dose till I had a residual amount left before the next dose. This turned out to be 5ppm per day. This will relax after the sponge fills up some but will take awhile. Wether the tank is 1 day old or 10years old the plants need P in the water column to grow to their potential, That I believe and that's why I insisted on keeping a measurable amount of P in the water column. Iam also using a layer of power sand under the aquasoil and I don't know if you used the bag I sent you or not. I'm not sure the effect of powersand on P so if you didn't use it, your P dose might be different. If it was me I would test P for a little bit to see what is being absorbed and then dose enough to have a measurable reading before the next dose.


I did not use the power sand. Reading up on it, some said it had a tendency to blend with the soil if you move things around a lot, which I obviously do. (why do they call it sand anyway? looks like little lava rocks)

P is still around 2 ppm today, or Id say at least 2 ppm based on the color chart (api liquid test) Not quite the blue of 5 but clearly a distinct green

After last night's wc there should've been 7.5 in the water, half the pre-wc dose then another 5. So it's pulling in some but not as drastic as what you describe. Might be the power sand.



jbvamos said:


> Now once you get this tank running better, the next thing will be traces. This is the whole reason I sent you the soil, as I feel there is a better mix to be made and you sir are the Master Micro Mixer. Your new screen name will be "triple M". Seriously though I'm curious what you find with the current blend, mainly Fe/Mn ratio. I think aquasoil has alot of Mn in it, but have no way to prove it. I'm currently using 3:1 i think. The next mix i'm going to 6:1 and have a gut feeling it will work out alot better. You say that alot of people with aquasoil are using the current ratio with good success, but I also think alot of people are fine with just an algae free tank that can grow plants pretty well, and not concerned with perfect growth.


Myself and a few others are getting better results with Fe:Mn around 3:1-5:1 instead of 2:1. So that's nothing to do with aquasoil.

My guess is the unchelated Mn is absorbed more quickly and easily than chelated versions and therefore it doesnt take as much.

As for knowing and trying to control everything aquasoil is having an effect upon, that would be an exercise in futility outside of a lab, and what would we even do with that information? The results at any given time would depend on the age of the soil and what that specific soil had been exposed to over its lifetime. Even if it was possible to make an optimum micro blend for aquasoil, it would only be "optimum" for soil of the same age it was developed for.

There's no need to reinvent the wheel imo. Its a high cec substrate doing what a high cec sub does. The main factor is it adds a lot of N to the system so we dont need as much NO3, and it lowers the KH. Its the latter Im most interested in to see if softer water helps a few species. That, and a simple base curiosity whether any of my current plants like aquasoil better than sand.

Of course down the road we may discover that it does better with more of this micro or less of that one, but I wouldnt hold my breath for specifics. I think its more likely one sub may need more or less of everything overall.

But that's just my current take on the situation, in a few months I may think something entirely different!


----------



## jbvamos

> I did not use the power sand. Reading up on it, some said it had a tendency to blend with the soil if you move things around a lot, which I obviously do. (why do they call it sand anyway? looks like little lava rocks)


So much for my experiment, We have two totally different tanks now. Must be the powersand that sucks it all up. I will put some in a bucket with a small circulation pump, dose P, and see what happens. The powersand does rise to the surface when moving plants/uprooting, I just push it back down with my tweezers. 



> P is still around 2 ppm today, or Id say at least 2 ppm based on the color chart (api liquid test) Not quite the blue of 5 but clearly a distinct green
> 
> After last night's wc there should've been 7.5 in the water, half the pre-wc dose then another 5. So it's pulling in some but not as drastic as what you describe. Might be the power sand.


It's funny you mention 2ppm because that is my new "bottom" when I test for P. Sunday I dosed 5ppm, Monday I dosed 5ppm, today I tested 4 hours into the photo period I was at 2ppm. So in a little over 2 days I lost 8ppm, no water changes were done. I wonder if the powersand is full now, and It's just the aquasoil absorbing the P. My guess is you still could dose 5ppm per day and it will end up at 2ppm. I'm going to test this on my 40 gallon that doesn't have a powersand layer. 

The reason I'm interested in all this is because it kind of throws the EI calculators out the window in regards to P and whatever else the aquasoil/powersand does. If I want to have 5ppm P at the end of the week before a water change, all the calculators are absolutely useless to me especially the accumulation calculator. EI was based on not having to test anything. I would have run into trouble if I followed this route. If you can't rely on the calculators, you have to test.


----------



## fablau

Very interesting, I read through all this Burr, and I feel your pain.

I have tried AS in a small tank (just AS, no with sand or other stuff), and I have learned two things:

1. AS sucks a lot, and I find myself dosing double of what I dose in a same size tank with inert substrate.

2. Watch for those plants that have no roots in the soil, such as Anubias on driftwood or mosses on rocks, they need ferts in the water column to grow.

I'll keep watching...


----------



## MCFC

fablau said:


> AS sucks a lot


Experiment over, we have reached a conclusion!!


----------



## burr740

So last night's WC was the start of the 2nd week, will be doing one every other day for this next week.

Lean dosing is clearly not working as this stage in the game. I think the first two days of nothing, then two more days of just K and Fe, I think those first few days really put things at a disadvantage. Unhappy stalled plants = algae. The couple doses of P later in the week seemed to perk things up a little bit. 

I dont know how ADA tanks get by with such a routine, maybe it's using simple, slower moving plants with half the light and CO2. IDK but it clearly isnt going to work here.

Here's some pics. Most plants are in various stages of unhappiness, from slightly perturbed to downright mad. Algae is rampant. Got everything from GDA to GSA to BBA, with hints of Cyano sprinkled in for good measure. All thats missing is a good case of hair algae. Maybe that one missed the memo























































If the plants ever start growing nice some of this will go away on its own and I can trim my way out of the rest...hopefully.

After last night's wc I dosed approximately 15 ppm K, 7 P, 6 NO3, and .2 Fe from the custom blend. The plan going forward is to dose basically the same levels as the other tanks only with NO3 cut maybe in half. 

Low dosing is over!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Most plants are in various stages of unhappiness, from slightly perturbed to downright mad. Algae is rampant. Got everything from GDA to GSA to BBA, with hints of Cyano sprinkled in for good measure. All thats missing is a good case of hair algae. Maybe that one missed the memo


LOL sounds like a barrel of monkeys over there!!!:grin2:

I can only imagine you sitting there staring at that algae. How heavy is the tank.......might be flying out the window before long!!:wink2::wink2:


----------



## vvDO

Are you still getting ammonia or nitrites before your next water change?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Grobbins48

Selfishly this is a good learning for me, as a lot of the bottoms of my plants look like what you have now in this tank. I'll be following close on how you manage to clear up the algae. I know I am running BDBS, but feel I'm just not there yet with my balance.

Thanks again for bringing us on this journey with you and being so transparent to the learnings!


----------



## burr740

vvDO said:


> Are you still getting ammonia or nitrites before your next water change?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I dont have a test for either one so no idea. Had planned to just follow a routine of 1 week of daily wc, next week every other day, next week 2x week, then 1x week. I may speed through it a little sooner though


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> So last night's WC was the start of the 2nd week, will be doing one every other day for this next week.
> 
> Lean dosing is clearly not working as this stage in the game. I think the first two days of nothing, then two more days of just K and Fe, I think those first few days really put things at a disadvantage. Unhappy stalled plants = algae. The couple doses of P later in the week seemed to perk things up a little bit.
> 
> I dont know how ADA tanks get by with such a routine, maybe it's using simple, slower moving plants with half the light and CO2. IDK but it clearly isnt going to work here.
> 
> Here's some pics. Most plants are in various stages of unhappiness, from slightly perturbed to downright mad. Algae is rampant. Got everything from GDA to GSA to BBA, with hints of Cyano sprinkled in for good measure. All thats missing is a good case of hair algae. Maybe that one missed the memo
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the plants ever start growing nice some of this will go away on its own and I can trim my way out of the rest...hopefully.
> 
> After last night's wc I dosed approximately 15 ppm K, 7 P, 6 NO3, and .2 Fe from the custom blend. The plan going forward is to dose basically the same levels as the other tanks only with NO3 cut maybe in half.
> 
> Low dosing is over!



Not to smile in any way at your current situation, but, really want to follow along as you work thru these issues. The above pic looks all too familiar to me. 

I soon realized that lots of light (120PAR+), lean nitrates, and all my other water variables really makes for unhappy plants!


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Dose the water column as in the past, it will help!
Not much different than soil.

The green hair algae will come, give it time!>


----------



## jbvamos

> Here's some pics. Most plants are in various stages of unhappiness, from slightly perturbed to downright mad. Algae is rampant. Got everything from GDA to GSA to BBA, with hints of Cyano sprinkled in for good measure. All thats missing is a good case of hair algae. Maybe that one missed the memo


same results in my 40 gallon unlike the 180 that was dosed from the beginning. I didn't intervene with the 40 gallon at all in the beginning and it got pretty ugly, all i did was the water changes, dosed K and micro. Currently I'm adding P and things are turning around. I uprooted alot yesterday and replanted the tops. The tank will be looking good real soon. I don't know how amano did it either, ive said this multiple times, He even had plants not rooted in the substrate. I see two options, don't dose P and go through the ugly algae stages and eventually it will clean up, Or dose P from the beginning and skip the ugly stages. 


> After last night's wc I dosed approximately 15 ppm K, 7 P, 6 NO3, and .2 Fe from the custom blend. The plan going forward is to dose basically the same levels as the other tanks only with NO3 cut maybe in half.


I don't think you need the NO3, but 6ppm is not going to hurt. The traces i'm not so sure about. I don't know if the aquasoil leaches or absorbs the traces, or maybe some of them and not all of them. In the beginning with the 180 I could cause issues with the trace dosing and reverse it with a water change, but then again, you didn't use the powersand and I did. Just something to keep an eye on. Might want to try just dosing Fe. After your frequent water change schedule is over you might want to start thinking about GH too. For safe measure i'm currently adding 2deg Gh with calcium and magnesium sulfate.



> The green hair algae will come, give it time!


in my experience, it doesn't have to happen



> I soon realized that lots of light (120PAR+), lean nitrates, and all my other water variables really makes for unhappy plants!


His water column is not lean on N, that is for sure!


----------



## burr740

Things are looking up! Plants taking off and algae is on the retreat.

Nearing the end of week two (wed) doing water changes every other day. Dosing approximately 15 ppm K, 7-8 PO4, 7-8 NO3, 5 Mg after the wc, .15 micros daily. Should probably ditch the NO3 but Im just using the regular macro bottle for some of this. Need to make a new macro solution for this tank alone










Patanal, wallichii and mac caterpillar are doing pretty good











AR new growth looks decent, pretty soon I'll pinch the ratty older leaves off. Staurogyne spatulata getting wide and doing a pretty good job of cleaning itself up. Ive pinched a few algae covered leaves off










Rotala macranda variegated low in the back..seems to be coming alive. Still a far cry from these in the Dutch










Pogo kimberly is growing nice but has zero color, might be the extreme NO3 atm.

Lud red is sorta puckered up but growing. Idk what this green algae is, doesnt look like gsa, doesnt wipe off like gda. The good news is it's not increasing. Pretty soon I'll replant the tops, leave a few stumps and toss all that middle portion. The very bottoms surprisingly arent too bad.











Rotala indica seems pretty happy. Hygro araguaia and E vietnams are doing a great job of cleaning themselves up. I havent touched a single leaf of either one










Pretty big difference from a week ago










There's a few patches of that green Lugwigia algae on the substrate. I thought it was cyano but it's that stuff, seems to be fading.

In spite of all this various algae I still havent wiped the front glass even once. Interesting right?

Stay tuned!!


----------



## Greggz

Burr I am not sure if I want this to work or not???

What if it does? And this tank grow plants better than ever? 

You know I have a weak mind and am easily influenced. 

I really don't want to start over with new substrate again, so I am very conflicted!!:grin2:

Nice update and I am watching this with great, great interest.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

time to set up an ADA soil budget I suppose. probably gonna cost me a fortune lmao


----------



## jbvamos

Greggz said:


> Burr I am not sure if I want this to work or not???
> 
> What if it does? And this tank grow plants better than ever?
> 
> You know I have a weak mind and am easily influenced.
> 
> I really don't want to start over with new substrate again, so I am very conflicted!!:grin2:
> 
> Nice update and I am watching this with great, great interest.


It will work! That tank will be smooth sailing real soon. I'm interested to see the leaf/plant size differences he sees between the soil vs sand tanks.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr I am not sure if I want this to work or not???
> 
> What if it does? And this tank grow plants better than ever?
> 
> You know I have a weak mind and am easily influenced.
> 
> I really don't want to start over with new substrate again, so I am very conflicted!!:grin2:
> 
> Nice update and I am watching this with great, great interest.


Sounds like a good time for that 2nd tank you've been putting off! 

You'd need somewhere to house the rainbows for 2-3 weeks anyway, might as well skip all that and just do a new set up w/aquasoil. 

Honestly Im not expecting a big difference, nothing worth swapping the main tanks over for. Too many things do just fine in sand, and its such a pleasure to work with. Main thing I expect some soft water-lovin species to appreciate a lower KH. 

But we'll see...


----------



## burr740

Today marks the end of two weeks and I did the first major trim. Uprooted 5 stem groups and replanted the tops. It wasnt bad at all as far as dust goes

Just when I thought Pantanal couldnt grow any faster...

Previous pic from two days ago










Today 










Trimmed











Before (pic from two days ago)










After



















I'd just turned the filters back on after the trim and WC, maybe 15 minutes. That's a lot clearer than I expected


----------



## Maryland Guppy

I would imagine the aquasoil is no different than dosing urea.
Plants love this in small doses!


----------



## Greggz

Burr interesting thing with that Pantanal is how far apart the nodes are. 

I assume that is different looking growth than you see in the other tanks. Looks like when I went on vacation and lowered dosing and dimmed my lights. The stuff just shot to the surface in the same fashion.

As usual don't know what it means, but will be interesting to see what it does from here.

And I know you haven't really set about scaping this tank, but holy cow it looks better than most already.

You have a way with the planted tanks my friend!!:wink2:


----------



## jbvamos

looking good! whats your plan with P dosing now that your water change schedule is relaxing? I'm still adding 5ppm per day and test results show a consistent 2ppm. This is my new bottom even if I dose less than 5ppm.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> I would imagine the aquasoil is no different than dosing urea.
> Plants love this in small doses!


I'm contemplating going down this road in the near future. What is your recommendation on dosing and do you have a source for it?


----------



## Wobblebonk

jbvamos said:


> looking good! whats your plan with P dosing now that your water change schedule is relaxing? I'm still adding 5ppm per day and test results show a consistent 2ppm. This is my new bottom even if I dose less than 5ppm.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> I'm contemplating going down this road in the near future. What is your recommendation on dosing and do you have a source for it?


I like to imagine he is collecting it from his horses but it's not too hard to get from gardening supply type stores or amazon. Though I suppose I shouldn't be surprised with botox and all but apparently anti aging urea face cream is a thing on amazon.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr interesting thing with that Pantanal is how far apart the nodes are.
> 
> I assume that is different looking growth than you see in the other tanks. Looks like when I went on vacation and lowered dosing and dimmed my lights. The stuff just shot to the surface in the same fashion.
> 
> As usual don't know what it means, but will be interesting to see what it does from here.
> 
> And I know you haven't really set about scaping this tank, but holy cow it looks better than most already.
> 
> You have a way with the planted tanks my friend!!:wink2:


Hah, thanks man. Its easy when you have a lot of species to play with. Nice colorful plants are going to look good regardless.

Good observation on the Pantanal. I noticed that too. It'll be interesting to see how round two grows out.

It definitely doesnt do that in the other tanks





















jbvamos said:


> looking good! whats your plan with P dosing now that your water change schedule is relaxing? I'm still adding 5ppm per day and test results show a consistent 2ppm. This is my new bottom even if I dose less than 5ppm.


For 2x week wc I'll probably front load around 20 ppm K and 8-10 PO4, then a couple doses of .15 micros. Might skip the NO3 or do maybe 10 ppm 

Dosing 10 PO4 after each water change, it's staying between 2 and 5. The color is a little darker than 2 but not as dark as 5. 



jbvamos said:


> I'm contemplating going down this road in the near future. What is your recommendation on dosing and do you have a source for it?


Can get it on amazon or the bay. If you add 'fertilizer 1 lb' to the search it'll parse out a bunch of useless results.

.2-.5 ppm daily is good. Start low because your bio will have to adjust, might get a little gda in the beginning. It'll go away though


Pink Ramshorn I got from @LRJ . Been feeding this tank more trying to build a population

(pic isnt the best, think I held the phone too close)










Hygrophila lancea


----------



## Wobblebonk

and here I've just been feeding rams to puffers... I thought those were just like the reject albinos (they're all puffer food I don't discriminate.)


----------



## jbvamos

> For 2x week wc I'll probably front load around 20 ppm K and 8-10 PO4, then a couple doses of .15 micros. Might skip the NO3 or do maybe 10 ppm


I never left my 2x a week water change schedule and probably never will. The tank just seems so much better after the water change. I should probably try going a full week without water change just to see, but i have no plans in the near future to do so. It's just too easy and quick to do a water change with how I setup the tank to not do it. 

Your fert schedule sounds perfect. Have you degassed any water yet to check ph? I'm curiuous where it's at. I'm also curious what your Kh is and max ph drop with co2.

alpha chemicals sells this. Is this what i'm looking for? Urea - (NH2)2CO - 46-0-0 Fertilizer - 1 Pound


----------



## Quagulator

jbvamos said:


> alpha chemicals sells this. Is this what i'm looking for? Urea - (NH2)2CO - 46-0-0 Fertilizer - 1 Pound


Yep, that should be a higher grade urea than the typical stuff spread onto farmers fields, it should be easier to dissolve in the higher grade form. 

Awfully expensive for 1 pound, I sell 55 lb bags for $20 or so, but its a standard agriculture grade, so likely has some contaminants and won't dissolve as easily. 

If you want a premixed blend of ammonium nitrate, urea and water look into a UAN solution. Typically they are 32, 30 or 28% nitrogen.


----------



## jbvamos

Quagulator said:


> jbvamos said:
> 
> 
> 
> alpha chemicals sells this. Is this what i'm looking for? Urea - (NH2)2CO - 46-0-0 Fertilizer - 1 Pound
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, that should be a higher grade urea than the typical stuff spread onto farmers fields, it should be easier to dissolve in the higher grade form.
> 
> Awfully expensive for 1 pound, I sell 55 lb bags for $20 or so, but its a standard agriculture grade, so likely has some contaminants and won't dissolve as easily.
> 
> If you want a premixed blend of ammonium nitrate, urea and water look into a UAN solution. Typically they are 32, 30 or 28% nitrogen.
Click to expand...

 looks like 1lb will give me about 620 doses so I done mind paying extra for a pure grade that dissolves easily. Thanks for for confirming this is the correct form.


----------



## Quagulator

jbvamos said:


> looks like 1lb will give me about 620 doses so I done mind paying extra for a pure grade that dissolves easily. Thanks for for confirming this is the correct form.


It might require some persuasion to get all of the urea you want dissolved. As the you increase the amount dissolved, it becomes harder to dissolve more.


----------



## burr740

Look what the cat dragged in! :nerd:



















Decided to set the old 20H back up with aquasoil. I know right? That leftover half bag was burning a hole in my pocket, so I bought another bag to go with it and a new light.

This Odeyssea was only like 75 bucks. I didnt want the monster PAR a 4 bulb with individual reflectors would give, but I wanted more than two bulb options. Been pleasantly surprised with the Oddeyseas on the 20Ls so I decided to try this one. 

The built in timer is nice, has two settings for two sets of T5s plus one for the LEDs (which I believe are mostly night lights) havent tried it yet. I'll be happy with anywhere between 70 and 100 PAR at the sub, guessing it'll be around 90.

Should be up and running early next week



Wobblebonk said:


> and here I've just been feeding rams to puffers... I thought those were just like the reject albinos (they're all puffer food I don't discriminate.)


 Something something pearls before swine...



jbvamos said:


> Your fert schedule sounds perfect. Have you degassed any water yet to check ph? I'm curiuous where it's at. I'm also curious what your Kh is and max ph drop with co2.
> 
> alpha chemicals sells this. Is this what i'm looking for? Urea - (NH2)2CO - 46-0-0 Fertilizer - 1 Pound


KH seems to bottom out around 2.5, that's up to 3 days after a water change, might go lower doing one per week.

Degassed PH 7.25, peak co2 5.85. The sand tanks degas around 7.75, peak co2 in the lower 6.3s

Yeah thats the right urea


----------



## jbvamos

Use the powersand!


----------



## Wobblebonk

Well, I'll probably save the pink ones going forward but I've never bought ramshorn snails or pond snails they just came free on plants heh basically all my tanks but the loach tank and puffer tank have them. Some of my fry tanks double as snail factories.


----------



## Rusticdr

I have been following your thread and am glad that things r looking up.. I have been facing lots of issues with my 100g planted tank. After lots and lots of experimentation I have concluded that it could have been a combination of phosphate deficiency and reversed ca to mg ratio. My query to u is that if ur aquasoil s not getting out the phosphate from your water column at such a rapid rate how would you dose P? Will you go by EI standards and maintain between 1 and 2 ppm or would u target a higher level? 
I am still looking for answers and although my plants r looking better they r not the way I want them to be..

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Rusticdr said:


> I have been following your thread and am glad that things r looking up.. I have been facing lots of issues with my 100g planted tank. After lots and lots of experimentation I have concluded that it could have been a combination of phosphate deficiency and reversed ca to mg ratio. My query to u is that if ur aquasoil s not getting out the phosphate from your water column at such a rapid rate how would you dose P? Will you go by EI standards and maintain between 1 and 2 ppm or would u target a higher level?
> I am still looking for answers and although my plants r looking better they r not the way I want them to be..
> 
> Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk



5-7 ppm per week works best in the sand tanks, so Id dose about that much.

But...this is in combination with pretty high everything else, 30 NO3, 35 K, 1-1.5 ppm Fe - dosed per week. If these levels are lower you probably wouldnt need as much P


----------



## Rusticdr

burr740 said:


> 5-7 ppm per week works best in the sand tanks, so Id dose about that much.
> 
> But...this is in combination with pretty high everything else, 30 NO3, 35 K, 1-1.5 ppm Fe - dosed per week. If these levels are lower you probably wouldnt need as much P


Thanks.. mine s a densely planted tank and I do use aquasoil. Currently dosing almost 10 ppm per week. But the api test kits show it to be over 10 at the end of the week. Not like urs where it reduces. So I was wondering whether there s something that I am missing. But plants r responding to the phosphate. Is there anything as too much phosphate? 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

omfg something is bad wrong with this new bag of Aquasoil.

First of all, @jbvamos yes I was going to use the power sand. I spread a thin layer barely covering the bottom










Then added the entire new bag of Aquasoil. You can see the toothpick sticking up in the middle, depth is a little over 2.5". Didnt have to use any of the 1/2 bag left over from what jbvamos gave me, so I still have that










All good at this point. Fill it up and Im like wow the 50 gal wasnt near this dusty. Hmm..

Go to bed, get up the next morning about 7 hours later to this










What the hell?! I put my hand in and gently make a couple swipes back and forth, tips of my fingers maybe 1/2 inch down in the sub, slow and gentle...boom, instant mud hole



















Anyone experienced something like this before? The bag was shipped in a medium size flat rate box. It was crammed so tight to make it fit I dont think one more single ball would've fit. And the box took a beating during shipping, it was all mashed in on the corners, one side of tape pulled loose.

So Im wondering if maybe the integrity of the balls somehow got ruined...or something? Also interesting this bag was like $54 shipped, all other prices were around $65-$69. Got it off 3bay, the seller had good feedback, idk. 

Needless to say this batch is coming out. What to do next is the question.

I have plenty of power sand left, and 1/2 bag of the good stuff jbv gave me, which is about 1/2 as much needed to do the whole thing in a good depth

*Option 1:* put down a thicker layer of power sand and cap it off with a thinner layer of aquasoil. It is my understanding that over the course of AS development, the power sand came first. During the initial years that's all there was. So this may not be too bad.

*Option2:* Thin layer of power sand, maybe twice as much as above, then an inch-inch and a half of blasting sand, cap it with the rest of the AS

Couple yeas ago I asked how it'd work to mix sand with aquasoil, some said the sand might cause the AS to break down too fast. So Im hesitant to cap aquasoil with sand or just mix them up. Over time the sand is going to work its way to the bottom and the AS to the top anyway. AS over sand though, might be alright

*Option 3:* Power sand capped with blasting sand. From what I can gather the power sand has a lot of the same stuff as AS, and at least as high CEC value.

So idk what Im going to do but Im leaning one of those 3 options. Any suggestions??



Rusticdr said:


> Thanks.. mine s a densely planted tank and I do use aquasoil. Currently dosing almost 10 ppm per week. But the api test kits show it to be over 10 at the end of the week. Not like urs where it reduces. So I was wondering whether there s something that I am missing. But plants r responding to the phosphate. Is there anything as too much phosphate?


In some instances too much P, relative to other nutrients, can cause issues because P competes with certain other things for uptake by the plants. 

Also if Fe doesnt have a strong chelate it binds with P forming FePO4, which makes both unavailable to plants. This is a lot of folks problems with using an edta based product like csmb in higher PH levels. Edta starts to separate from Fe around 6.5. So in a PH of say 7.5, the Fe isnt going to be very well chelated. This can cause issues.

But otherwise overdosing P isnt something to worry much about as long as we dont get crazy with it. 10-15 ppm in the water column should be fine, assuming Fe has an appropriate chelate.

If the plants are responding well I'd just keep doing what you're doing.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

if you really want to, you might be able to separate the aqua soil from the power sand by using some screen or using a neodymium magnet.

wait the ebay seller sold it cheaper than aquaforestaquarium?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> if you really want to, you might be able to separate the aqua soil from the power sand by using some screen or using a neodymium magnet.


You mean to try and salvage the powersand that's already in there? Im not gonna worry about it, didnt use much to begin with and have plenty left



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> wait the ebay seller sold it cheaper than aquaforestaquarium?


Just looked and it was 54.99 shipped. Seller xbweng2017 with 460 feedbacks, 97.4% positive. So not great but not terrible either

I may send them a mssg that something was bad wrong and see what they say...


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> You mean to try and salvage the powersand that's already in there? Im not gonna worry about it, didnt use much to begin with and have plenty left
> 
> 
> 
> Just looked and it was 54.99 shipped. Seller xbweng2017 with 460 feedbacks, 97.4% positive. So not great but not terrible either
> 
> I may send them a mssg that something was bad wrong and see what they say...




My tank looks like that after a few years with ADA aquasoil after I do a major uproot and gravel vac. Get some poly fill in your filter it should clear it up. Soil has probably been sitting around and broke down a bit. I don’t think you need to ditch it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Screw that, its already ditched.  Ebay guy gave me a full refund with the agreement that I'd send it back to him. So Im out $13 but whatev


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Cappedd soil is more predictive shall we say.


----------



## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> Cappedd soil is more predictive shall we say.


Nah, this wasnt your typical bag of Aquasoil otherwise nobody would be using the sht. Something was bad wrong










I decided to put down 1/2" of power sand then see how far the half bag of AS would go....

It went this far










I spread it out about 2 inches deep and used blasting sand for the rest :icon_eek:










Just finished filling, havent even turned a filter on yet


----------



## jbvamos

If it was me I would probably remove it. If you want to separate the soil from the powersand just go get some 1/4 wire mesh, dump it on the wire mesh and hose it down. Powersand should stay and the soil will wash away. Sounds like it will be a disaster when uprooting plants

Edit sorry was a tad late to the discussion!


----------



## burr740

jbvamos said:


> If it was me I would probably remove it. If you want to separate the soil from the powersand just go get some 1/4 wire mesh, dump it on the wire mesh and hose it down. Powersand should stay and the soil will wash away. Sounds like it will be a disaster when uprooting plants


Ive already took it out and cleaned everything up. Those last pics are the new set up using the leftover half bag I got from you


----------



## jbvamos

burr740 said:


> jbvamos said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it was me I would probably remove it. If you want to separate the soil from the powersand just go get some 1/4 wire mesh, dump it on the wire mesh and hose it down. Powersand should stay and the soil will wash away. Sounds like it will be a disaster when uprooting plants
> 
> 
> 
> Ive already took it out and cleaned everything up. Those last pics are the new set up using the leftover half bag I got from you
Click to expand...

I saw that, I realized after I was late to the discussion. Smart move. Very weird that happened. Were the bags the same as the other ones? How’s the 50 doing?


----------



## FreshPuff

Ebay has lots of counterfeit ada Amazonia floating around... I wouldn't doubt this is one of em.


----------



## jeffkrol

FreshPuff said:


> Ebay has lots of counterfeit ada Amazonia floating around... I wouldn't doubt this is one of em.



That was my first thought..
This is old..


> Counterfeit ADA Aquasoil Amazonia
> 
> ADA Aquasoil Amazonia is a world renowned planted tank substrate, which a lot of planted tank enthusiast swear by. It’s a proprietary product developed by Aqua Design Amano of Japan especially for use in planted tanks. I have been using this product for about 2 years now and have nothing but good things to say about this product. I will leave reviewing my experience with this product here as that will be topic for another post where I will review AquaSoil Amazonia in detail in the ADA product review section.
> 
> Going on to the issue we have right now, I was really disappointed after I came across a notice from ADA Hong Kong posted on their website http://www.adana.hk/hk/index.asp.They have tracked bags of counterfeit ADA Aquasoil Amazonia from Guangzhou, China.


https://bhushandalvi.wordpress.com/2008/09/21/counterfeit-ada-aquasoil-amazonia/


----------



## burr740

jbvamos said:


> Were the bags the same as the other ones? How’s the 50 doing?


I didnt look too close at the bag, threw it away last night so idk really.

50 is cruising along pretty good. Some things are happier than ever, others are so-so. I'll post a detailed breakdown of everything pretty soon.

Its a little cloudy atm, moved a lot of plants around today











The other 75













FreshPuff said:


> Ebay has lots of counterfeit ada Amazonia floating around... I wouldn't doubt this is one of em.


Oh really? I didnt know there was such a thing! That could certainly explain it. 

At least homeboy gave me a refund


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Nah, this wasnt your typical bag of Aquasoil otherwise nobody would be using the sht. Something was bad wrong



Oh yeah that’s definitely not right, never looked like that usually just a fine dust not mud.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Greggz

Hey Joe sorry to see the situation with the soil. That didn't look like fun.

Looking forward to the update on the 50. 

Seeing the pics of the 50 and 75, my initial thought is that unless this stuff makes a significant improvement, I'm not sure it's worth all the trouble. And right now we are just talking short term, not long term as it ages/changes. Seems like a lot to monitor over time. 

I know some love it, but so far I am glad to have BDBS. Maybe you'll change my mind as things progress, but I am not seeing it yet.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

@burr740 bet you wish it was in a bucket first? >

Turbidity is much easier to examine in the bucket before it gets to the tank. :grin2:


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Seeing the pics of the 50 and 75, my initial thought is that unless this stuff makes a significant improvement, I'm not sure it's worth all the trouble. And right now we are just talking short term, not long term as it ages/changes. Seems like a lot to monitor over time.
> 
> I know some love it, but so far I am glad to have BDBS. Maybe you'll change my mind as things progress, but I am not seeing it yet.


This is my thought as well. Still early days obviously but so far Im not seeing anything I havent seen before using blasting sand with a dash of O+. 

That's not to say a few species arent getting bigger in size, and growing faster (is that a really good thing??) Some plants are clearly loving it. So far it's not the difference maker I was hoping for or expecting.

But you know it might be a different story after the AS tanks balance out and get stable. Probably wont reach a final conclusion until after a year or two as the AS goes through it's life cycle.



Maryland Guppy said:


> @*burr740* bet you wish it was in a bucket first? >


Hahahahaha, Touche!!


HC in the Dutch coming along nicely










From 3 weeks ago



burr740 said:


>


AGA deadline is in 6 weeks...


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

that lagenandra though


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> that lagenandra though


Ive pinched a ton of good leaves off to keep it from shading the HC while it fills in. Another week or two should be enough of that hopefully, then it can grow into a full splendor

P update for @jbvamos . Power sand is no joke! The first night of the new set up I dosed 25 ppm P just for the heck of it to see what happened. That was midnight. I tested it 30 minutes later and it was blue off the charts, just as you'd expect. 

By 8 am it was down to 5. By 8 pm, roughly 20 hours later, it was somewhere between .5 and zero. So yeah, power sand sucks up A LOT of P.

Gonna dose 10 ppm every day for a week or two and see how long this drastic rate of absorption lasts. That's not as much as it sounds considering the frequent water changes.

In the 50 Ive been dosing 5 every day and it levels out in the 1-2 range. So just the AS sucks up a lot, but not as much as having the power sand along with it.

Planted!! :red_mouth


----------



## jbvamos

burr740 said:


> SingAlongWithTsing said:
> 
> 
> 
> that lagenandra though
> 
> 
> 
> Ive pinched a ton of good leaves off to keep it from shading the HC while it fills in. Another week or two should do it hopefully, then I'll let it grow into full splendor
> 
> P update for @jbvamos . Power sand is no joke! The first night of the new set up I dosed 25 ppm P just for the heck of it to see what happened. That was midnight. I tested it 30 minutes later and it was blue off the charts, just as you'd expect.
> 
> By 8 am it was down to 5. By 8 pm, roughly 20 hours later, it was somewhere between .5 and zero. So yeah, the power sand sucks up A LOT of P.
> 
> Im going to dose 10 ppm every day for a week or two and see how long this drastic rate of absorption lasts.
> 
> In the 50 Ive been dosing 5 every day and it levels out in the 1-2 range. So just the AS sucks up a lot, but not as much as having the power sand along with it.
> 
> Planted!!
Click to expand...

 yeah man it’s nuts and I have a 1 inch layer in the 180. It’s full now and not absorbing anymore but the aquasoil still is. 2ppm is my new bottom. It took about 2 months for the powersand to fill up with dosing 35ppm per week. I think you will be fine with 5-6 ppm per day. I found that as long as I had a residual amount before the next dose, even if it was only .25ppm then everything did fine.

In the beginning before I knew what was going on I could stunt wallichi with a single trace dose because P was 0.

By the way one of ada’s selling points for these products is that it removes P from the water column. They must still be in the camp of P causes algae

This isn’t really a fair experiment because the high density planting in your 20 might be sucking up a good portion of the P


----------



## jbvamos

What I’m curious about is if this tank will skip the ugly algae phases aquasoil is known for by keeping a measurable amount of P in the water column along with K and traces. It worked in the 180, but 1 tank is meaningless. I found next to nothing about this P strategy on the web.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Ive pinched a ton of good leaves off to keep it from shading the HC while it fills in. Another week or two should be enough of that hopefully, then it can grow into a full


I'm just envious that it grows so well in your tank lmao

Powersand is just pumice isnt it? pumice has a high cec iirc Soils 2: Mineral ingredients

I'm curious if it soaked anythign else up besides the P


----------



## dukydaf

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> I'm just envious that it grows so well in your tank lmao
> 
> Powersand is just pumice isnt it? pumice has a high cec iirc Soils 2: Mineral ingredients
> 
> I'm curious if it soaked anythign else up besides the P


1)When you say P I assume you always actually mean PO4 (3-), is that correct?

If that is the case, under aquarium conditions, you will have 2 major species in water H2PO4(-) and HPO4 (2-)... Therefore all anions

2)CEC - cation exchange capacity 

From 1) and 2) your phosphate loss is not directly linked to soil CEC. In the same way soil CEC will not cause a Cl-, NO3- etc. loss. 

Just saying... A new working theory is needed. Maybe something from the new AS interferes with the test reaction so the test results are erroneous ?


----------



## jbvamos

dukydaf said:


> SingAlongWithTsing said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm just envious that it grows so well in your tank lmao
> 
> Powersand is just pumice isnt it? pumice has a high cec iirc Soils 2: Mineral ingredients
> 
> I'm curious if it soaked anythign else up besides the P
> 
> 
> 
> 1)When you say P I assume you always actually mean PO4 (3-), is that correct?
> 
> If that is the case, under aquarium conditions, you will have 2 major species in water H2PO4(-) and HPO4 (2-)... Therefore all anions
> 
> 2)CEC - cation exchange capacity
> 
> From 1) and 2) your phosphate loss is not directly linked to soil CEC. In the same way soil CEC will not cause a Cl-, NO3- etc. loss.
> 
> Just saying... A new working theory is needed. Maybe something from the new AS interferes with the test reaction so the test results are erroneous ?
Click to expand...

 amount of p04 is confirmed after dosing by testing water. In a short time it’s gone like a fart in the wind so the test kit isn’t the issue. ADA even states that these substrates remove PO4 from the water column. Where it goes or how it happens I do not know, but would like to. All I know is it is made unavailable to plants or test kits in a short time, every last percent of ppm


----------



## dukydaf

That's what you've taken from the above post? Good, keep saying PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. It makes it easier for others to understand who they are dealing with.

However my reply was addressed to SingAlongWithTsing who wants to learn( and has learned a great deal in a short time). Why not let other people gain knowledge if you don't want to? 


Could you link the source on ADA website where they say that it takes up PO4? Maybe Burr will also be interested to read their experiments. 

Because I found this article on their website where they stated that it HAS phosphoric acid, so it RELEASES phosphoric acid:
"In the case of Aqua Soil-Amazonia, the stem plants grew taller with the help of ammonium and phosphoric acid contained in the Amazonia"
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/aj_backnumber/archives/783

And there is no mention in ADA's current manual
http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/support/substrate/manuals/AQUA-SOIL_WEB.pdf


----------



## jbvamos

I will find it. By the way I want to learn too what happens with it, i in no way are disputing what you said, just sharing my experience with plant monitoring and daily testing for 4 months.


----------



## jbvamos

dukydaf said:


> That's what you've taken from the above post? Good, keep saying PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. It makes it easier for others to understand who they are dealing with.
> 
> However my reply was addressed to SingAlongWithTsing who wants to learn( and has learned a great deal in a short time). Why not let other people gain knowledge if you don't want to?
> 
> 
> Could you link the source on ADA website where they say that it takes up PO4? Maybe Burr will also be interested to read their experiments.
> 
> Because I found this article on their website where they stated that it HAS phosphoric acid, so it RELEASES phosphoric acid:
> "In the case of Aqua Soil-Amazonia, the stem plants grew taller with the help of ammonium and phosphoric acid contained in the Amazonia"
> NATURE AQUARIUM NOTES#12 Features of Amazonia Light | ADA - AQUA JOURNAL
> 
> And there is no mention in ADA's current manual
> http://www.adana.co.jp/en/contents/support/substrate/manuals/AQUA-SOIL_WEB.pdf


 I never said anything about CEC, but .I can tell you it absorbs it, Or does something to it to make it unavailable to plants and to test kits. again i'm not arguing with you or looking to start I fight, I want to learn too. Here is one link, not the one I was speaking of but I will find that one also

Aqua Soil absorbing phosphates - great article from Aqua Journal Online! | AquaScaping World Forum

Negative charges are rejected from the clay surface. Accordingly, an area "free" of anions will be developed near the clay surface. We term this phenomenon "negative sorption", in other words, the concentration of anions in this layer is lower than in the surrounding solution, further from the clay surface. Chloride and nitrate anions, for example, behave in this way.

"Phosphate also bears a negative charge, however its behaviour is different from chloride and nitrate. This difference in anions behaviour can be explained by observing the clay mineral structure ( drawing 1.05 drawing 1.06) " from the article


----------



## burr740

dukydaf said:


> Because I found this article on their website where they stated that it HAS phosphoric acid, so it RELEASES phosphoric acid:
> "In the case of Aqua Soil-Amazonia, the stem plants grew taller with the help of ammonium and phosphoric acid contained in the Amazonia"
> NATURE AQUARIUM NOTES#12 Features of Amazonia Light | ADA - AQUA JOURNAL


The article says nothing about releasing it. Providing it to plants via root contact =/= releasing it into the water. 

"with the help of ammonium and phosphoric acid *contained in* the Amazonia"

If it's capable of holding it then its capable of ad/absorbing it....right?

The plants and test kit certainly agree.

It is well established that young Aquasoil removes P from the water column, whatever the exact mechanism. I had no idea it happened to such a degree until I tried it myself.


----------



## jbvamos

"In the case of phosphorous, therefore, there is no anion exchange but a kind of "titration" of acid surface by a weak base. Therefore, even though there are other anions in the environment - the phosphorous will be taken up and not a single other anion like chloride or nitrate. In other words - this is a "specific sorption" creating a P complex on the sorbing surface and it is accompanied by a change in the electrical charge of the clay or of the sorbing surface and an increase in the uptake capacity of the cations (drawing 1.08). The sorption of phosphate into lateritic soil (rich with aluminium and iron oxides) increases its cation exchange capacity. This does not occur in montmorillonitic soils"

"In mixing clay with weak solutions of phosphorous - phosphorous is absorbed from the solution. Increasing the P concentration increases it's uptake but when attempt is made desorb P from the surface very small amount of P can be released from the surface (drawing 1.11)."
@dukydaf I'm wondering if this would explain how this is happening? In your experience is there anything else aquasoil could be absorbing that i don't know about, such as K or traces? I forget who said this, can you remind me? "That's what you've taken from the above post? Good, keep saying PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. It makes it easier for others to understand who they are dealing with."


----------



## burr740

Well I had to redo it again. Turns out I used way too much power sand relative to aquasoil. There was about an inch of each one and it needed a lot more aquasoil. Nothing would stay down, and planting even one stem brought 5-10 power sand rocks to the surface.










Clearly this was never going to work. What to do, what to do...

I started to order another bag of Aquasoil but wasnt too keen on the idea after this recent fiasco. Plus I didnt want to wait for it.

So I skimmed the top layer of pure aquasoil off as much as I could, filled a gallon zip loc bag almost full. Then I took out probably 2/3 of the remaining powersand/aquasoil layer.

This left about a 3/4" layer of powersand with aquasoil mixed in, its mostly ps but there a good bit of soil too.

Capped that off with a good 2.5-3" layer of blasting sand. That sweet sweet blasting sand










I like the idea of power sand under blasting sand, the remaining aquasoil can just turn to mush and fortify the powersand via cec or just feed the plants. If not for that I probably would've added a good bit of O+ for a similar effect.

We'll see how it works out. 

When I finished last night I added 20 ppm PO4 to the brand new water. Tested just now, nine hours later it's still 10+. Hard to say beyond that but it's definitely slowed down a lot having a thick layer of sand on top.


----------



## chayos00

burr740 said:


> I like the idea of power sand under blasting sand, the remaining aquasoil can just turn to mush and fortify the powersand via cec or just feed the plants. If not for that I probably would've added a good bit of O+ for a similar effect.


I like your thinking! A bit like what I did with my BDBS, but I used lava rock for my thicker area of the substrate to help give it some volume, but not be like 4-6" of compacted sand.


----------



## Greggz

jbvamos said:


> I forget who said this, can you remind me? "That's what you've taken from the above post? Good, keep saying PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. It makes it easier for others to understand who they are dealing with."


Yeah it's comical sometimes. Some know everything yet show nothing. More interested in arguing than growing plants in my opinion. 

Keep up the great discussion with Burr. Very worthwhile endeavor here. I am enjoying learning more, and looking forward to seeing where this goes. 

So far stuff is still scaring me, my goodness there is a lot to consider and keep up with.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Greggz said:


> So far stuff is still scaring me, my goodness there is a lot to consider and keep up with.


As burr740 is doing, we shall never learn new approaches unless we try them.

Heck I started with inert quartz substrates, moved to SafeTSorb (won't use again due to degradation but good CEC properties) and have settled on dirt.

SafeTSorb has a really good CEC rating but will not hold on to PO4.
Added mono-potassium phosphate to my pre-charged experiment and it was all released to the water column immediately.
That involved a lot of WC's and was not fun.
I blame my green water outbreaks on the SafeTSorb now, mostly due to its age.


----------



## Greggz

Maryland Guppy said:


> As burr740 is doing, we shall never learn new approaches unless we try them.
> 
> Heck I started with inert quartz substrates, moved to SafeTSorb (won't use again due to degradation but good CEC properties) and have settled on dirt.
> 
> SafeTSorb has a really good CEC rating but will not hold on to PO4.
> Added mono-potassium phosphate to my pre-charged experiment and it was all released to the water column immediately.
> That involved a lot of WC's and was not fun.
> I blame my green water outbreaks on the SafeTSorb now, mostly due to its age.


And yours is another interesting case study. Will admit I know little about the details and why it works. 

Burr you got a spare 20 for dirt?????? :grin2:


----------



## dukydaf

burr740 said:


> The article says nothing about releasing it. Providing it to plants via root contact =/= releasing it into the water.
> 
> "with the help of ammonium and phosphoric acid *contained in* the Amazonia"
> 
> If it's capable of holding it then its capable of ad/absorbing it....right?
> 
> The plants and test kit certainly agree.
> 
> It is well established that young Aquasoil removes P from the water column, whatever the exact mechanism. I had no idea it happened to such a degree until I tried it myself.


Hi Burr , 

Great that you agree with me that AS contains PO4, as ADA states. The article mentions phosphoric acid which is easily water soluble. Of course there will be a gradient with the highest point near the ADA AS grain. As you've seen the article also says "ammonium and phosphoric acid". Is ammonium released into the water or just via root contact ? You may have noticed (and it is very common) that new AS will increase the water concentration of NH3/ NH4+ greatly. Ammonium is also water soluble, but the CEC is expected to prevent some of the NH4+ from being immediately released. So if anything NH4 would be kept back while phosphoric acid more easily released.



burr740 said:


> If it's capable of holding it then its capable of ad/absorbing it....right?


Let's take your quoted sample. NH4+ comes with new ADA AS. Will ADA AS ad/absorb NH4 substrate later in the life of AS ?




jbvamos said:


> Aqua Soil absorbing phosphates - great article from Aqua Journal Online! | AquaScaping World Forum


The link you provided links to aquascapingworld.com . The link on aquascapingworld to the ADA resource leads to a generic ADA site. So again where does ADA says about ADA AS taking up PO4, as you stated ? I am interested in their original statement. 



jbvamos said:


> "In the case of phosphorous, therefore, there is no anion exchange but a kind of "titration" of acid surface by a weak base. Therefore, even though there are other anions in the environment - the phosphorous will be taken up and not a single other anion like chloride or nitrate. In other words - this is a "specific sorption" creating a P complex on the sorbing surface and it is accompanied by a change in the electrical charge of the clay or of the sorbing surface and an increase in the uptake capacity of the cations (drawing 1.08). The sorption of phosphate into lateritic soil (rich with aluminium and iron oxides) increases its cation exchange capacity. This does not occur in montmorillonitic soils"
> 
> "In mixing clay with weak solutions of phosphorous - phosphorous is absorbed from the solution. Increasing the P concentration increases it's uptake but when attempt is made desorb P from the surface very small amount of P can be released from the surface (drawing 1.11)."
> @dukydaf I'm wondering if this would explain how this is happening? In your experience is there anything else aquasoil could be absorbing that i don't know about, such as K or traces? I forget who said this, can you remind me? "That's what you've taken from the above post? Good, keep saying PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. It makes it easier for others to understand who they are dealing with."


You do realize that the quotes you have taken from this website , also state that PO4 uptake is not based on anion exchange and do not even mention CEC as PO4 uptake mechanism??? But yeah keep saying that PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. I hear that if you repeat it enough times it becomes religion.

The fact that it takes up lots of PO4(3-) but does not release it under aquarium conditions (pH) should give a hint at what happens. It is mentioned in the article referenced, but I don't have time or see any benefit of going more into it. If is just ad/absorbing PO4 that is happening (regardless of the mechanism) it should also release it back when needed so after it fills up on PO4 you will be able to grow plants for many months without any PO4 dosing. Try it.

PS. What's comical is the attempt to draw a conclusion from random observations with no structure and system while ignoring sound research. From this approach blood letting would still cure common cold and headaches.


----------



## jbvamos

dukydaf said:


> You do realize that the quotes you have taken from this website , also state that PO4 uptake is not based on anion exchange and do not even mention CEC as PO4 uptake mechanism??? But yeah keep saying that PO4 is taken up by soil because of the high CEC. I hear that if you repeat it enough times it becomes religion.
> 
> The fact that it takes up lots of PO4(3-) but does not release it under aquarium conditions (pH) should give a hint at what happens. It is mentioned in the article referenced, but I don't have time or see any benefit of going more into it. If is just ad/absorbing PO4 that is happening (regardless of the mechanism) it should also release it back when needed so after it fills up on PO4 you will be able to grow plants for many months without any PO4 dosing. Try it.
> 
> PS. What's comical is the attempt to draw a conclusion from random observations with no structure and system while ignoring sound research. From this approach blood letting would still cure common cold and headaches.


Please quote me where i mentioned anything about CEC. All i said is the aquasoil absorbs ( or whatever the technical term is) massive amounts of phosphate from the water column. You said it's impossible because it is an anion and that it's probably still there, just not testable with a test kit and we need a new working theory. It appears now that I educated you with the article you are changing your tone that it IS possible and you just can't admit that you don't know as much as you think you know, Which is completely fine, I know very very little about this and i'm just trying to learn. I will no longer be replying to your posts because I don't want to clog up burr's journal with this garbage

My original point was not to let people know why all this happens, but that it does happen. I myself do not like to have my water column P limited. I tried following EI for P dosing and it didn't work, nor did 2x or 3x or 4x.........Ei was based on not testing. So if people came to this forum with problems with a new aquasoil tank stating that they are dosing EI levels and are still having plant issues, It could get brought up that it is still a possiblity you are P limited even though you are dosing EI levels. That's it, nothing more, CEC- negative adsorption, on and on really means nothing to me. All i need to know is when I myself setup another new aquasoil tank, I will be sure to do high dosing of P. Yes I said P and not PO4(3-), i derived that from NPK
and thats as technical I need to be


----------



## dukydaf

jbvamos said:


> . All i said is the aquasoil absorbs ( or whatever the technical term is) massive amounts of phosphate from the water column. You said it's impossible because it is an anion


 Where did I say that? Read again:



dukydaf said:


> From 1) and 2) your phosphate loss is not directly linked to soil CEC. In the same way soil CEC will not cause a Cl-, NO3- etc. loss.


The loss of PO4 is not due to soil CEC, that's what I said. If you don't have an issues with this statement don't debate it... 



In your comment you also said that "Ada states that these substrates remove PO4 from the water column." I'm still waiting for your official ADA source on that... Thank you


----------



## burr740

Instead of doing another sloppy farm tank I decided to Dutch it up a little bit










Probably swap out one or two background plants, just used stuff I had too much of elswhere

The current bulb combo leaves much to be desired. The light came with two 10,000K and two actinic. I had a couple 6500Ks and bought a Powerveg 633

2 x 6500K
1 x Powerveg
1 x Actinic /1 x 10,000K

Par at the sub dead center is 94 with the actinic, 102 with the 10,000K, 78 and 85 on the very ends

The Powerveg alone isnt enough to bring the colors out. In the current combo, the actinic is too blue, the 10,000K is too green 

Ive ordered a 3000K and Agromax Pure Par that's supposed to be purple, has a heavy red and blue spectrum.










In case anyone wonders what a Powerveg looks like with just 6500Ks










Grabbed 13 Silver Tipped Tetras from the LFS yesterday. They should be fine with frequent water changes for a couple of weeks, probably do 60-70% every 2-3 days. Shouldn't be much ammonia coming from the little bit of AS on bottom.

They'll look better with better light


----------



## Greggz

Love the pics with different bulbs.

I take it the Powerveg is the 633? If so looks more orange than the red of the 660. Of course the yellow of the 6500K could be influencing too. Personally can't have more than one 6500K at a time, I just can't get it right for my eyes. 

Is the 3000 the Plantmax? If so, I will be very interested to see how that affects PAR when you swap it in. Expecting significant increase. 

And nice job Dutching it up. Nice simple clean presentation.........well done!


----------



## Xiaozhuang

For aquasoil tanks I cycle the tank with soil & hardscape in for 2-3weeks (with water, starter bacteria and filter but no lights or plants) before planting anything. This allows the cycling to be done, microbial and bio-filter to mature somewhat. Fresh aquasoil melts many delicate plants, so I find this maturing process helpful in that aspect also as the usage of TC increases and more aquarists choose pickier plants for aquascaping purposes.

I begin dosing everything immediately after planting. (done this with both EI and leaner regimes)
With the pre-cyclng process... tank can be totally algae free (no diatoms, no dust etc) from day 1 on wards and doesn't get the small algae bump normally associated with a tank's growing in period. 

I think that ADA videos and commercial dealers that plant from day 1 spreads poor practice. Also, ADA dosing system is very limited (i'm not a fan of it) - it does well in some countries but not so much in others depending on whats in your tap. In my country, you'll never get optimal plant growth from using ADA ferts alone.


----------



## Axelrodi202

I think the standard ADA method of plant from day 1 and WC very frequently can work, but only with a more 'traditional' plant selection of types that will not mind the ammonia. It did work great for me in the past with my main tank, but that was with more basic stems, hairgrass.

Personally I am leaning more towards the run the tank empty of plants for several weeks method, now that I'm gravitating towards a lot of ammonia-sensitive soft water plants. Plus it is a lot less work...


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Love the pics with different bulbs.
> 
> I take it the Powerveg is the 633? If so looks more orange than the red of the 660. Of course the yellow of the 6500K could be influencing too. Personally can't have more than one 6500K at a time, I just can't get it right for my eyes.
> 
> Is the 3000 the Plantmax? If so, I will be very interested to see how that affects PAR when you swap it in. Expecting significant increase.
> 
> And nice job Dutching it up. Nice simple clean presentation.........well done!


Thanks Gregg

Idk why the 633 looks so orange, its really not (might be the Odyssea 6500K) It's definitely warmer to the eyes than the 660. I like it better actually because the 660 gives off a neon look. Which wasnt too bad in the 6 bulb unit, other bulbs could compensate but it's exaggerated with only 4 bulbs now. I run that one in the farm 75 and the 633 in the Dutch.

The new 3000K is an Agromax. Arrived today but I havent tried them yet. Im expecting it to be very similar to the Plantmax 



Xiaozhuang said:


> For aquasoil tanks I cycle the tank with soil & hardscape in for 2-3weeks (with water, starter bacteria and filter but no lights or plants) before planting anything. This allows the cycling to be done, microbial and bio-filter to mature somewhat. Fresh aquasoil melts many delicate plants, so I find this maturing process helpful in that aspect also as the usage of TC increases and more aquarists choose pickier plants for aquascaping purposes.
> 
> I begin dosing everything immediately after planting. (done this with both EI and leaner regimes)
> With the pre-cyclng process... tank can be totally algae free (no diatoms, no dust etc) from day 1 on wards and doesn't get the small algae bump normally associated with a tank's growing in period.
> 
> I think that ADA videos and commercial dealers that plant from day 1 spreads poor practice. Also, ADA dosing system is very limited (i'm not a fan of it) - it does well in some countries but not so much in others depending on whats in your tap. In my country, you'll never get optimal plant growth from using ADA ferts alone.


That's good to know Dennis, thanks. Makes perfect sense too


----------



## burr740

Update on the 50.

About halfway through week 3 the surface film disappeared completely overnight. In spite of the skimmer running this whole time there'd been a weird sort of film on the surface. It magically disappeared. 

There is virtually zero algae in the tank now, on the plants or otherwise. I skipped the 2x water changes at week 3 and started just 1. The surface film clearing up told me things were starting to click right.

Dosing about 30 ppm K and 20-25 ppm PO4 per week, one or two 6 ppm NO3 doses just depending on what bottle I grab. Micros are .2 ppm Fe almost every day. PO4 in the water column hovers between 2 and 5 ppm according to the API test.

A few plants are doing better than ever, most are doing about the same as in sand, nothing is really worse.

Here's some pics










The only plant that might be doing worse is Mayaca fluviatilis, 9 out of 12 stunted badly. 










Im chalking this up to low P for a while but really not sure. It was also stuck in a corner with not much light. I moved the 3-4 good ones to a bright spot










Rotala indica is some of the best Ive ever seen, big and fat with nice colored tops. Ive had it almost this good once or twice but not quite, and not consistently 

Hygrophila araguaia growing nice, algae free since the first week. Nothing new here, grows the same in sand










Limno belem is big and strong but doesnt have the best color. Rotala magenta is pretty happy, it was struggling in sand










Staurogyne spatulata has turned into absolute monsters, and clean as a whistle. Lower left is aquasoil dust, not algae 










AR mini regular is doing pretty good. The Stauro is shading the two in front. That one is sorta crinkled.

Variegated sucks as usual. Promising new growth then undulates bad. Got 6 more in the farm just like em. Never good enough to sell or scape with...sigh 










Mermaid weed doing the same thing it does in sand, nice and fat but has a tendency to lean. Not sure what that's about. Rotala mac variegated is struggling for real. You can see a few in back. Mac caterpiller beside it (cant see) is doing fine 










Ammannia crassicaulis is stunting badly, was doing the same thing in sand. Thought I had a pic but must've deleted it. Here Ive mowed it down to the stumps, tossed the ratty tops and replanted 3 decent ones. We'll see how the new growth comes out










^ Pogo kimberly stumps on the right. Those were doing great, they went into the new 20

Hygro compact is shining like a mofo, not a bad leaf on the plant. Sold off 5 more just like it. I would say it's a little happier now than in sand, but its close.










Ludwigia tornado is starting to come around. It was kinda just sitting there slowly dropping lower leaves in the sand tanks. Tops werent looking too good either. This might be one that definitely likes aquasoil better










Pantanal not showing the best color but it's pretty happy. Seems to be growing out of the abnormally long internode phase. Im thinking that might've been low P too.










Rotala wallichii hasnt missed a beat since turning pale the first week. Ludwigia brevipes to the left, pretty content with life atm










And if all that wasnt enough  here's that kimbelry in the 20...still happy!


----------



## jbvamos

excellent update!


----------



## Greggz

Great update.

A lot to digest there, and will be interesting as things progress.

Strange with the Mayaca fluviatilis. No matter what my dosing that plant just seems to chug along with no worries.

And that is outstanding color on the Pogo K. 

Wondering if Pantanal and Mac. V. will improve over time. Might still be "settling in"?

And Mermaid weed does the same for me, stems bend and curve, especially when it gets big. 

And have you had much luck with any Ammannia? Can't remember.


----------



## slipfinger

@burr740

Glad to see you've joined the darkside! I look forward to seeing this tank (the 50) progress. 

I can't wait to see what you come up with nutrient wise once the Aqua Soil honeymoon phase ends. 

I would post a picture of my tanks but it is utterly disgraceful. I will updating my journal soon enough, I'll add the gruesome photos to show what happens when a Aqua Soil tank is left without C02 and nutrients. Its not as bad as you'd think which really surprised me.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> And have you had much luck with any Ammannia? Can't remember.


No luck at all. I used to grow gracillis in the first 75 with diy co2 and flourish liquids. It wasnt big or perfectly flat, but it was consistent. Tried it 3 or 4 times since and it always stunts to the point of tossing.

Vin gave me a few last year bigger than your hand and stems like a sharpie, stunted in no time.

This variety is supposed to be easier. If these dont work Im going to believe the species simply doesnt like certain high nutrients. Who knows which ones. Of course that doesnt explain Barr growing them like tree trunks

I was hoping it was a KH thing AS would solve but so far its not looking like it...


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> No luck at all. I used to grow gracillis in the first 75 with diy co2 and flourish liquids. It wasnt big or perfectly flat, but it was consistent. Tried it 3 or 4 times since and it always stunts to the point of tossing.
> 
> Vin gave me a few last year bigger than your hand and stems like a sharpie, stunted in no time.
> 
> This variety is supposed to be easier. If these dont work Im going to believe the species simply doesnt like certain high nutrients. Who knows which ones. Of course that doesnt explain Barr growing them like tree trunks
> 
> I was hoping it was a KH thing AS would solve but so far its not looking like it...


Yeah that's what I thought. 

Me neither. Got one now, but not promising.

Another mystery of the planted tank. High nutrients possible, likely as anything.

BTW, my KH is about 2.5, so low KH not likely culprit.


----------



## rhiro

Hey Joe. Hopefully it is okay to post a link to a YT video but here is a 300+ par at substrate planted tank. Something new for you to experiment with.:smile2:
I purposefully left a space after the https: as I did not want to embed the video in the post.

https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlkGbZDh23g&t=323s


----------



## Greggz

rhiro said:


> https: //www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlkGbZDh23g&t=323s


Interesting thing Joe. I'm almost 100% certain that the Mermaid Weed from Maryland I recently received was from that tank. 

Might explain how it got to me bright red and is now bronze/orange.

Very interesting indeed. Curious as to your thoughts on Kris's tank. My goodness that is a LOT of light.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Catching up on my favorite journal. Still a month behind on reading. 

THIS is one reason why you win scaping competitions. That replanted Gratiola bush - look at the attention to detail! 




burr740 said:


> After


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Hey Joe. Hopefully it is okay to post a link to a YT video but here is a 300+ par at substrate planted tank. Something new for you to experiment with.:smile2:
> I purposefully left a space after the https: as I did not want to embed the video in the post.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlkGbZDh23g&t=323s


Some of those plants have AMAZING colors. Between that and Dennis Wong's tanks, makes me wanna put the 6 bulb unit back on the Dutch!!

Dare I try it w/a month left until the AGA deadline?? Hmm...

And feel free to embed whatever you want here 



Saxa Tilly said:


> Catching up on my favorite journal. Still a month behind on reading.


Get some popcorn ready because the next 5-6 pages is one helluva ride!

Glad to have you back _in country._


----------



## burr740

Limnophila belem hitting the surface in the 50, starting to color up nice (did someone mention light?) 










Light's playing a role but even down low is starting to get some purple. These were green all the way up just a week ago. I think the tank is becoming more balanced now, whatever that means...










75 jungle farm. Spot the new guys?










Spoiler alert: Pink flamingos. Got 5 in the mail today, 4 here and put one in the aquasoil tank










Here's the other one. Big color difference in the 50 without all the fancy bulbs. This is the same plant as the others, they just arrived today


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Some of those plants have AMAZING colors. Between that and Dennis Wong's tanks, makes me wanna put the 6 bulb unit back on the Dutch!!


I thought I was nuts for using 165~175 PAR, then I see Dennis going for 200, and now this guy going for 300+ PAR lmao

are you gonna try it on the aquasoil tank too for comparison?



> Dare I try it w/a month left until the AGA deadline?? Hmm...


really high risk with such a short time frame imo


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> really high risk with such a short time frame imo



Yeah that was just a momentary lapse of reason, it aint gonna happen :nerd:


----------



## Grobbins48

It is amazing what different bulbs/ lights can do for the color of plants. A whole part of this game I never gave much though to a few months ago.


----------



## Greggz

Belem looks great. Had it before, but never looked as happy as that. Soil or light?



burr740 said:


> These were green all the way up just a week ago. I think the tank is becoming more balanced now, whatever that means...


Interesting you say that. The ebbs and flows of a tank and balance are a hard thing to define. But you know it when you see it. And I know it when I see this tank!

The difference in the pics of the Flamingo in different lights is worth having it's own discussion. That is a great illustration of the difference color of light can provide. Both to the human eye and camera.

And Pantanal looks like it has got back to a more normal growth pattern. I would guess settling in now.

Got the popcorn ready, bring on those next 5 to 6 pages!:wink2:


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> Yeah that was just a momentary lapse of reason, it aint gonna happen :nerd:


Good Album!


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Belem looks great. Had it before, but never looked as happy as that. Soil or light?
> 
> Interesting you say that. The ebbs and flows of a tank and balance are a hard thing to define. But you know it when you see it. And I know it when I see this tank!
> 
> The difference in the pics of the Flamingo in different lights is worth having it's own discussion. That is a great illustration of the difference color of light can provide. Both to the human eye and camera.
> 
> And Pantanal looks like it has got back to a more normal growth pattern. I would guess settling in now.
> 
> Got the popcorn ready, bring on those next 5 to 6 pages!:wink2:


Limno belem usually colors up like that and even more when its happy, so I dont think it's much to do with the soil (as far as being different from sand) Now, they are bigger in diameter with thicker stems than ever. That's probably soil...

Popcorn was for Vin who's still a month behind reading. I really hope the next 5 pages are smoother sailing!

Those crypts, if I just had the one 50 gal, I'd be very disappointed because they arent pink at all. But they are pink! They just need the right light to bring it out. 

You can tell a difference in the AR too, how bright that stump in the 75 pic is compared to the ones in the 50


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Instead of doing another sloppy farm tank I decided to Dutch it up a little bit


I'm with you. Who needs a sloppy and ugly farm tank when they can be just as beautiful as a main display? That one's awesome!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Limno belem usually colors up like that and even more when its happy, so I dont think it's much to do with the soil (as far as being different from sand) Now, they are bigger in diameter with thicker stems than ever. That's probably soil...


Yeah that's really what I meant. 

Those tops are large and happy. My tops never got nearly that large. 

Will be interesting to see what others morph a bit on you.


----------



## burr740

Two fat Pantanal from the farm










Stuck them in the Dutch along with a couple from the aquasoil 50. Big difference in size/color.










Im having a real conundrum how to do this spot, and what to do it with...


----------



## Greggz

Wow those two Pantanal from the farm are fat and colorful.

Mine are doing well, but those two are a cut above.

Any change in micros/ferts in the farm? I upped my B and Pantanal seems to like it. Of course, could be something completely different. Curious what you think yours are liking. I'll post a pic of mine in my journal. 

Nicely done.


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Im having a real conundrum how to do this spot, and what to do it with...



Sounds like a real weekend worry  

Seriously impressed!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Some of those plants have AMAZING colors. Between that and Dennis Wong's tanks, makes me wanna put the 6 bulb unit back on the Dutch!!
> 
> Get some popcorn ready because the next 5-6 pages is one helluva ride!
> 
> Glad to have you back _in country._



Hey Burr - finally caught up with all your posts. Whew and wow! Well, I'm glad you finally gave Aquasoil a shot. We've only been talking for about it for a few years.  I thought it was a typo when you said 20 or 25 ppm PO4. I re-read it and it didn't seem like you were kidding. I'm glad you're doing this...and why hasn't someone written about adding 25 ppm phosphate to Aquasoil tanks before? 

But from a big picture perspective, I think it is really important for anyone interested in this journal or my Dutch or Kill Tank journals to explore various methods of growing plants. Pushing yourself into unfamiliar places can only make you better at the game. 

Having just come back from 6 weeks across most of Asia, I am scratching my head going 'Why do we grow plants so differently here in the US?' No other place fertilizes as much as we do. May be it's because this is the home of the Muscle Car, moon landing, and Texas. Arnold was my Governor. We do big or go home. I don't know the answer. Traveling has been an antidote to my fert dosing rut. I've never been more fearless about adding 25 ppm PO4, yet have never dosed less. (Burr, if you recall our conversation a few weeks before my departure, I was dosing 60 or 70 ppm nitrate, with accumulation near 100 ppm or so.) Well, I'm not doing that anymore. 

FWIW, here is what I'm doing with my four plant tanks:

1. 180 Dutch-turned-farm tank: Aquasoil + 50% tap water + your traces dosed at 0.15 ppm daily + 15-6-20 dosed once after water change. 

2. Kill Tank A: inert soil, tap water, dosing both macros and micros daily. Macros at 1.3-0.2-2 ppm and your custom traces at 0.075 daily. 

3. Kill Tank B: this is a new set up. Same water and dosing as Kill Tank A, but the substrate is INSANE. Similar to what I described here: https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/page-39 where I have almost the entire bottom of the glass covered in Osmocote. Then covered it up with gypsum, potash, dolomite, 1/8 inch of pottery clay, generously sprinkled Azomite, then added an inch of mineralized top soil, then a quarter inch of Akadama clay, an inch of Controsoil + Fluval stratum mix. All topped with 2-3" of inert gravel. No fish, very high CO2. (Note my muscle car reference above)

4. Kill Tank C: described here: https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/page-39 and this tank gets no water changes or CO2. No ferts at all. Very low light. Everything is in the substrate. 

Part of the reason why I set up Kill Tank B with crazy-rich substrate is from spending a few days hanging out with Dennis Wong in Singapore. Great guy. I saw his tank several times over a period of a month, so I also got a sense of the rate of growth. His farm tank that he posts pic of on Facebook has a very rich substarte. Not quite as crazy as mine, but very rich. He doses one or two ppm nitrate daily, but is generous with phosphate too. Without the extra P and the rich substrate, he wouldnt be able to grow many of the plants that he does if he strictly followed ADA's dosing plan. His tank is very bright, lean water-column, and clean. Besides less water column dosing, he has less flow than most American high tech tanks. 

Speaking of bright, the 300-PAR video above is Kris Weinhold's tank. I stayed at his place when I spoke to GWAPA club a few months ago. Again, super nice guy. Highly skilled plant grower. His tank is even harder to imitate than Dennis'. Partly because he doesn't know the exact ppm of everything off the top of his head. He has arrived at a happy place with ferts/CO2/insane light. Like a master chef who knows how much of everything to add without measuring, Kris has found that balance. Call it the 'al dente' approach to ferts. It's only a 75, but there is enough there to keep you interested for several hours. I had so much fun just staring at that tank. 

Anyway, really glad you're playing with Aquasoil.


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> Having just come back from 6 weeks across most of Asia, I am scratching my head going 'Why do we grow plants so differently here in the US?' No other place fertilizes as much as we do. May be it's because this is the home of the Muscle Car, moon landing, and Texas. Arnold was my Governor. We do big or go home.


Vin good to see you back. 

And I am looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on the above. And Burr's as well. 

I find these tanks fascinating, but can we duplicate them? Do we want to? Is it any easier? What plants like it? Which ones don't? We see the successes, what about the failures? What happens long term when soil is depleted? And I could probably think of a couple dozen more questions in just a few minutes.

Maybe your new kill tank will provide some enlightenment. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Greggz said:


> I find these tanks fascinating, but can we duplicate them? Do we want to?


Better study up on DIY LED lighting or have deep pockets.
I can picture 18 T5 4' lamps in a row 2" above the water's surface! >

@Saxa Tilly did the ludwigia peruensis survive your travels???


----------



## Ben Belton

Saxa Tilly said:


> 'Why do we grow plants so differently here in the US?' No other place fertilizes as much as we do.


Just a thought. From the tanks I see online, I don't often see Asian growers trying to do all these red stem plants. They might have one or two accent reds but not half a tank. We love them here. I love them. What do you think?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Any change in micros/ferts in the farm? I upped my B and Pantanal seems to like it. Of course, could be something completely different. Curious what you think yours are liking. I'll post a pic of mine in my journal.


Im up to .073 B and its been working really well for about 3 weeks. Over the past couple of months Ive slowly gone up from the .04s. 

Some may recall a few months back I began raising macros from moderate levels to high. It was obvious everything loved the new higher levels, and several minor but nagging issues went away. But everything was not rosy

When I raised K from around 20 ppm per week up to 35 (in one whack), Hygrophila all breathed a sigh of relief. They'd clearly been starving for K - although interestingly enough there were never any pinhole symptoms, just small unhappy growth. But...in every tank Lud red tips puckered up almost immediately, other Ludwigias did the same to a lesser degree, a few Pogo kimberly stunted.

Lud reds have always been prone do this. Its never been a chronic issue just a common sign they arent happy for some reason. I never knew what caused it, whether it was one thing or multiple somethings. Used to especially happen to replanted tops, but they usually got right again in a few days.

Well after a couple of weeks these were only getting worse. Something was clearly off. The knee jerk reaction would've been to blame higher macros - high ferts are bad, mmkay! - but too many other species were loving it so I wasnt about to change back.

Time to put on my sleuthing cap and break out the trusty Mulder Chart of Nutrient Interactions:










What did I just raise? Macros. NO3 a few weeks before and K just recently. 

What nutrients are most likely to be affected according to the chart? P, nope, raised that too. Mg was plenty and it doesnt stunt tips. This left B as the most likely suspect. And we all know low B will stunt tips.

So to sum it all up I started raising B and the situation quickly resolved.

Current recipe per dose, 4-5 x per week

Fe - .2
Mn - .05
B - .073
Zn - .05
Mo - .0015
Cu - .001 (there's a little in my tap)
Ni - .0005



Immortal1 said:


> Sounds like a real weekend worry


It keeps me awake at night...and Im only half joking. 



Saxa Tilly said:


> Part of the reason why I set up Kill Tank B with crazy-rich substrate is from spending a few days hanging out with Dennis Wong in Singapore. Great guy. I saw his tank several times over a period of a month, so I also got a sense of the rate of growth. His farm tank that he posts pic of on Facebook has a very rich substarte. Not quite as crazy as mine, but very rich. He doses one or two ppm nitrate daily, but is generous with phosphate too. Without the extra P and the rich substrate, he wouldnt be able to grow many of the plants that he does if he strictly followed ADA's dosing plan. His tank is very bright, lean water-column, and clean. Besides less water column dosing, he has less flow than most American high tech tanks.
> 
> Anyway, really glad you're playing with Aquasoil.


Great post Vin. Looking forward to see how the new kill tanks run.

Im still dosing about 20 PO4 per week in the 50, that's down from 20-25 2-3x per week those first couple of weeks. Levels in the water are holding steady between 5 and 10 ppm. So the absorption has slowed down a good bit but its still happening

Ive been thinking a lot about rich substrates lately. Ive always discounted the benefits when it comes to fast growing stuff like Pantanal. How does nutrients at the roots help when it needs trimming every week, before roots have even had time to develop??

Makes sense right? 

Over the past few weeks seeing plants grow in this aquasoil, Ive started using a lot more Osmocote+ in various other tanks. Picture gel-caps only 1/4 or 1/5 full, 2 or 3 per stem group. One of these per plants like Downoi instead of a single ball here and there like I'd been doing.

And sure enough, even the fast growing stuff clearly likes it! Why??

Then it occurred how we cut flowers from the garden and put them in a vase of water and they drink it right up. This is almost certainly an example active transport. What if cut stems in our aquariums take nutrients the same way?? Seems logical...

This might be common plant knowledge and Im just the last one to figure it out, but it's sort of been an eye opener recently


----------



## Greggz

Great post Joe.

Very interesting with the B. Same theory I have been going on with the Mulder's chart. 

My K is even higher than yours via K2CO3, so I think I will add some to my current mix and maybe even bring it up higher than yours. Went from .045 to .055 and thinking I will go to .09 and see what happens.

And I'll have to try some more Osmocote+ with a couple of species. Maybe break up a group and only dose one. I have a bag full of them, but have never really used them. Have always been concerned with how much it might alter the water chemistry. Maybe that's a false concern, we'll see.

And thanks again for taking the time to experiment and document everything with your tank (Same to you Vin!). It certainly has been valuable and made my tank better, and I'm sure many others here as well.


----------



## burr740

Thanks Gregg. That'd be an easy experiment to make two groups and only give one of them O+. I'll be interested to see how it works for you. 

Does anyone know what the deal is with Giesemann Super Floras? Im in the market for two 48" and cant find them anywhere. Everyone seems to be sold out of the 48" version.


----------



## Grobbins48

Greggz said:


> And I'll have to try some more Osmocote+ with a couple of species. Maybe break up a group and only dose one. I have a bag full of them, but have never really used them.


I have always been curious on this, as I have never tried any type of root tab. Always done water column only even for crypts, carpets, etc. I think my biggest worry would be for moving things around a lot. 

What I would be interested in is if this can help my carpet of monte carlo which is 50% to where I would like to see it. Any reason not to take single beads, using tweezers, and putting the under the roots of existing carpet plants like the MC or DHG?


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Does anyone know what the deal is with Giesemann Super Floras? Im in the market for two 48" and cant find them anywhere. Everyone seems to be sold out of the 48" version.


I can't find them either. 

Given all this talk about high PAR values you going to up the PAR a bit??

When I tested that G. Super Flora it was a PAR beast compared to anything else.


----------



## Quagulator

Expect a lot of little fertilizer balls making their way to the substrate surface (some will float on the water surface as well) if using O+ tabs. (my experience anyway). 

Easy to push back into the sub w/ tweezers / net off surface, just annoying. No harm to fish / shrimp / snails if there is fert balls laying on the substrate or floating behind a filter intake that I'm aware of.... 

I personally got mad at the O+ floating and being annoying so I make my own that don't have the "slow release" coatings and what not on them to avoid having them stick around for 6+ months. Instant positive response from crypts / swords / similar plants (in my low tech tank) but not long lasting. Much less response (if any) in my higher tech tanks. 

AR mini had a fantastic response in a medium tech tank I was toying with way back in college... I should throw a couple tabs under my current AR and watch...


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> What I would be interested in is if this can help my carpet of monte carlo which is 50% to where I would like to see it. Any reason not to take single beads, using tweezers, and putting the under the roots of existing carpet plants like the MC or DHG?


That's what Ive been doing for the past couple of years, using single balls here and there. One per square inch or two would be good for a carpet

Here's what Im doing lately












Greggz said:


> I can't find them either.
> 
> Given all this talk about high PAR values you going to up the PAR a bit??
> 
> When I tested that G. Super Flora it was a PAR beast compared to anything else.


The 50 could stand a new flora bulb and a little extra par wouldnt hurt. Also wanting to see how the color looks on the Dutch compared to Truelumen and zoo med floras. Weird that they're out of stock everywhere



Quagulator said:


> Expect a lot of little fertilizer balls making their way to the substrate surface (some will float on the water surface as well) if using O+ tabs. (my experience anyway).
> 
> Easy to push back into the sub w/ tweezers / net off surface, just annoying. No harm to fish / shrimp / snails if there is fert balls laying on the substrate or floating behind a filter intake that I'm aware of....
> 
> I personally got mad at the O+ floating and being annoying so I make my own that don't have the "slow release" coatings and what not on them to avoid having them stick around for 6+ months. Instant positive response from crypts / swords / similar plants (in my low tech tank) but not long lasting. Much less response (if any) in my higher tech tanks.
> 
> AR mini had a fantastic response in a medium tech tank I was toying with way back in college... I should throw a couple tabs under my current AR and watch...


It's funny you say that because in all the years Ive been using it, Ive never seen one float, ever. They always sink, and Ive used more loose than in gel caps. I'd be hard to deal with if they had a tendency to float.

Do they float for anyone else? Maybe Im just getting lucky...


----------



## Wobblebonk

I also just push in single o+ balls and they don't float. When they come up from me replanting they sit on the surface of the substrate and I push them back under.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> Vin good to see you back.
> 
> And I am looking forward to hearing more of your thoughts on the above. And Burr's as well.
> 
> I find these tanks fascinating, but can we duplicate them? Do we want to? Is it any easier? What plants like it? Which ones don't? We see the successes, what about the failures? What happens long term when soil is depleted? And I could probably think of a couple dozen more questions in just a few minutes.
> 
> Maybe your new kill tank will provide some enlightenment. Looking forward to seeing how it goes.


First, on why we dose so high. Remember, we are also the ones that came up with, embraced, and preach EI from the mountaintops. 'More' simply makes sense to us, the pursuit of which has colored all aspects of our life and culture. When my Asian and Euro friends visit, they are always amazed by how big things are. And why we drive such huge vehicles. It's just who we are. Heck, look what I did with my Super-substrate Kill Tank. I could have easily just put down some MTS and covered it with gravel. But, no, I cranked the substrate up to 11. 

Second, as for duplicating the two tanks...

I don't think many people can duplicate Kris' tank. It's walking a razor's edge. He got there from tweaking his system for years. There are more plants, way more light, and less ferts than what we are told is optimal. You'd have to tweak and tweak for a long time to get there. 

I think Dennis' tank is far easier to duplicate. It's just a really well-maintained tank (like Burr's) with a rich substrate and high light. Plants are kept short and slow by nitrogen limitation. He has some soil under his Aquasoil. He adds occasional Osmocote other other root foods as needed. Singapore also has really nice tap water that doesn't need messing with. 

Do we want to duplicate them? No. I think you need to find your path. But learn from people like Kris and Dennis. Visiting their homes and talking to them for a few hours really clarifies things. Another fantastic grower is Ghazanfar, also in the DC area. His basement is full of amazing tanks. Just brilliant, world-class tanks. He figured out a long time ago that what makes Ludwigia happy in his tanks makes Rotala (Lythraceae) unhappy and vice versa. So he tweaked and tweaked for a few years and came up with a 13-1.5-13 per week dosing plan + Seachem for traces. I tried it. Works like a charm. I suggested it to people who were having Rotala stunting issues - works well for them too. 

Which plants like it and don't? I think Dennis' approach will work well for all plants because the water-column sensitive species like Rotala have plenty in the substrate to consume. Keeping a ton of nutrients packed away in the substrate is key. His All-in-one liquid Fert only adds small amount of macros to the water column. I think his formula is similar to what Marian Sterian (Romania) sells with his Masterline liquid ferts. Both add 1 to 2 ppm nitrate to the water column daily. 

What happens when soil is depleted? Plants like Pantanal begin to struggle. You toss the soil and get new soil. I keep old Aquasoil for outdoor gardening. One thing that Barr does that many people don't pay attention to is that he continually adds fresh aqua soil to his tanks. This is overlooked but is a very clever way to keep plants happy. 

As for my Super-substrate Kill Tank, it is just as likely to crash and burn as it is to succeed. If it is a disaster, it's just 2 hours of work to toss everything and start over. Always learn more from disasters.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> @Saxa Tilly did the ludwigia peruensis survive your travels???


Yes! Thanks. It hung in there. Much happier now with more nutrients. This was a plant that I really struggled with 10-20 years ago, along with 'Eusteralis stellata' that we now call Pogostemon stellata. No issues now.

Bump:


Ben Belton said:


> Just a thought. From the tanks I see online, I don't often see Asian growers trying to do all these red stem plants. They might have one or two accent reds but not half a tank. We love them here. I love them. What do you think?


True. You won't see Pantanal in ADA tanks. Certainly not in mature tanks. 

Dennis called the American style of planted tanks 'Colorism' because we love our red stem plants. Hard to do that with nothing but Aquasoil. I attempted a 180-gal with nothing but red plants. It was too much.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Great post Vin. Looking forward to see how the new kill tanks run.
> 
> Im still dosing about 20 PO4 per week in the 50, that's down from 20-25 2-3x per week those first couple of weeks. Levels in the water are holding steady between 5 and 10 ppm. So the absorption has slowed down a good bit but its still happening
> 
> Ive been thinking a lot about rich substrates lately. Ive always discounted the benefits when it comes to fast growing stuff like Pantanal. How does nutrients at the roots help when it needs trimming every week, before roots have even had time to develop??
> 
> Makes sense right?
> 
> Over the past few weeks seeing plants grow in this aquasoil, Ive started using a lot more Osmocote+ in various other tanks. Picture gel-caps only 1/4 or 1/5 full, 2 or 3 per stem group. One of these per plants like Downoi instead of a single ball here and there like I'd been doing.
> 
> And sure enough, even the fast growing stuff clearly likes it! Why??


Yeah, Pantanal under EI will grow almost 2" per day. At the end of the week when you uproot it to trim, it has barely had time to grow roots. So, I imagine it's all water-column driven growth. Having said that, the Pantanal in Dennis' tank were not as happy as the other plants. It's a compromise. 

I think Aquasoil + targeted Osmocote is a great idea. Aquasoil itself is nowhere near as nutrient rich as a bead of O+.


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> I don't think many people can duplicate Kris' tank. It's walking a razor's edge. He got there from tweaking his system for years. There are more plants, way more light, and less ferts than what we are told is optimal. You'd have to tweak and tweak for a long time to get there.


Vin great posts. I will be reading them several times over, as lots to ponder there.

This might interest you. I recently received a different local to Maryland type of Mermaid Weed from Kris's tank. 

It came to me blood red. The real deal. Just like in his pictures/videos. Seeing is believing.

In my tank it's doing well, but is more of a bronze/orange color. Now my PAR at substrate is about 120, fairly high by most standards (U.S. anyways). I understand his is more like 300 (1,000 at the surface!). My goodness that just flat out scares me.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> That's what Ive been doing for the past couple of years, using single balls here and there. One per square inch or two would be good for a carpet
> 
> Here's what Im doing lately



Joe, are those balls wrapped in plastic?? Curious...


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

fablau said:


> Joe, are those balls wrapped in plastic?? Curious...


i think theyre just gel caps with the ends pinched


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Joe, are those balls wrapped in plastic?? Curious...



Those are gel caps that have been pulled apart, there's big halves and shorter halves. Instead of trying to put them back together I just pinch/fold the open end. They sorta crease and stay shut. Works great for 5-10 balls worth


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Joe, are those balls wrapped in plastic?? Curious...


Those are gel caps that have been pulled apart, there's big halves and shorter halves. Instead of trying to put them back together I just pinch/fold the open end. They sorta crease and stay shut. Works great for 5-10 balls worth


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Those are gel caps that have been pulled apart, there's big halves and shorter halves. Instead of trying to put them back together I just pinch/fold the open end. They sorta crease and stay shut. Works great for 5-10 balls worth


Fantastic! I didn't know about that stuff. Do you find those on Amazon.com?


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Fantastic! I didn't know about that stuff. Do you find those on Amazon.com?


Yeah they're easy to find - 'empty gel caps' They come in different sizes so pay attention to what number you order.

I like the 00 size, 000 is the biggest and what most folks use.

https://www.amazon.com/Capsule-Connection-Wholesale-Gelatin-Capsules/dp/B00428B6X6/


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> Yeah they're easy to find - 'empty gel caps' They come in different sizes so pay attention to what number you order.
> 
> I like the 00 size, 000 is the biggest and what most folks use.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Capsule-Connection-Wholesale-Gelatin-Capsules/dp/B00428B6X6/


In the past I have used caps made of vegetable gel instead of beef gel. Not sure if it makes any difference but just a preference I have.

Well, Hurricane Lane is headed my way. In my younger days I experienced 2 major hurricanes. Walked out of my Mom's house in awe to an island wide blackout. Saw major damage with huge tree's toppled over. However this time it feels different. Now older with a family and the responsibilities that come with it I am feeling quite stressed. Spent the day tidying up all the outside loose objects and buying necessities; water, flashlights, food. Hoping for the best.


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> In the past I have used caps made of vegetable gel instead of beef gel. Not sure if it makes any difference but just a preference I have.
> 
> Well, Hurricane Lane is headed my way. In my younger days I experienced 2 major hurricanes. Walked out of my Mom's house in awe to an island wide blackout. Saw major damage with huge tree's toppled over. However this time it feels different. Now older with a family and the responsibilities that come with it I am feeling quite stressed. Spent the day tidying up all the outside loose objects and buying necessities; water, flashlights, food. Hoping for the best.


That's a good observation on the gel caps. I dont even know what mine are made of, had them a few years and put them in a different bag. I believe its the same ones in the link but not positive.

Want no part of hurricanes! Stay safe!!


----------



## Wobblebonk

I actually prefer the animal gelatin if I'm going to use one of the 2, cheaper and itself is a slow release nitrogen source. Though I don't think it makes a significant difference gelatin vs cellulose based unless you are actually trying to fertilize with straight gelatin or hpmc?


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Yeah they're easy to find - 'empty gel caps' They come in different sizes so pay attention to what number you order.
> 
> I like the 00 size, 000 is the biggest and what most folks use.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Capsule-Connection-Wholesale-Gelatin-Capsules/dp/B00428B6X6/




Thank you very much Joe


----------



## jbvamos

@Saxa Tilly


> Another fantastic grower is Ghazanfar, also in the DC area. His basement is full of amazing tanks. Just brilliant, world-class tanks. He figured out a long time ago that what makes Ludwigia happy in his tanks makes Rotala (Lythraceae) unhappy and vice versa. So he tweaked and tweaked for a few years and came up with a 13-1.5-13 per week dosing plan + Seachem for traces. I tried it. Works like a charm. I suggested it to people who were having Rotala stunting issues - works well for them too.


Would you mind going into a little more detail about this trace dosing you mentioned here. Did you dose according to directions? Did you use the complete trace line such as flourish, flourish trace, and flourish iron combined? Water change schedule? Did you front load all the macros or split it up throughout the week? Also what about all the other water parameters such as CO2 drop, GH/KH, lighting, substrate etc?

Thanks


----------



## Saxa Tilly

jbvamos said:


> @Saxa Tilly
> 
> Would you mind going into a little more detail about this trace dosing you mentioned here. Did you dose according to directions? Did you use the complete trace line such as flourish, flourish trace, and flourish iron combined? Water change schedule? Did you front load all the macros or split it up throughout the week? Also what about all the other water parameters such as CO2 drop, GH/KH, lighting, substrate etc?
> 
> Thanks


Yes, Flourish Iron + Comprehensive dosed exactly according to label directions was the original plan. That worked well. 

But people who know me know that I just cant let a good thing be. So I bought bottles of Flourish Comprehensive and Trace. And made a very close imitation of Flourish Iron using Fe Gluconate...and I then mixed all three into one funky solution so that I'd have only one solution to dose. If you want to buy bottles of all three and dose according to label instructions, you'd get the exact same thing. It too worked really well. 

I dosed the macros at roughly 60% of weekly dose on Day 1. 20% on Day 3 and another 20% on Day 5. WC on Day 7. I dosed the trace concoction on Day 2, 4, and 6. I was doing 90% weekly water changes (still do) and so I wanted to front load some macros to prevent stair-stepping up macros as the week went by. KH was 3. GH around 5 or 6. Light is around 60 umol at substrate from Finnex something. I have two Finnex thingies over the tank, but turn on only one. pH drop from CO2 was about 1.4 or so. CO2 is high enough that during the second half of the light cycle the fish lose their appetite...so almost nosebleed CO2. You don't need anywhere near that much CO2, despite what you might read here or on Facebook high tech group. 

All in all, this dosing plan is a pretty good compromise between hungry Ludwigia and touchy Lythraceae. There was little or no stunting in Rotala, Ammannia or Cuphea if I recall. I think of it as somewhere between PPS and EI in concentration, at least with macros. It's worth a try if you're struggling with Rotala under EI. 

Then Tinkeritis kicked in hard. It's a form of intellectual OCD that takes over when things are going well. I sometimes wish a big hand would smack me upside the head when this happens. So I took a nice formula that works and tried to double/halve macros or double/halve micros to see what would happen. I didn't write down exactly what I attempted but I vaguely recall things not going quite as well. I should go back go Ghazanfar's formula, but some shiny object/idea caught my eye and that was that. At least when I was journaling over at Barr Report, I'd have written down exactly what went down. But nope.


----------



## jbvamos

Saxa Tilly said:


> Yes, Flourish Iron + Comprehensive dosed exactly according to label directions was the original plan. That worked well.
> 
> But people who know me know that I just cant let a good thing be. So I bought bottles of Flourish Comprehensive and Trace. And made a very close imitation of Flourish Iron using Fe Gluconate...and I then mixed all three into one funky solution so that I'd have only one solution to dose. If you want to buy bottles of all three and dose according to label instructions, you'd get the exact same thing. It too worked really well.
> 
> I dosed the macros at roughly 60% of weekly dose on Day 1. 20% on Day 3 and another 20% on Day 5. WC on Day 7. I dosed the trace concoction on Day 2, 4, and 6. I was doing 90% weekly water changes (still do) and so I wanted to front load some macros to prevent stair-stepping up macros as the week went by. KH was 3. GH around 5 or 6. Light is around 60 umol at substrate from Finnex something. I have two Finnex thingies over the tank, but turn on only one. pH drop from CO2 was about 1.4 or so. CO2 is high enough that during the second half of the light cycle the fish lose their appetite...so almost nosebleed CO2. You don't need anywhere near that much CO2, despite what you might read here or on Facebook high tech group.
> 
> All in all, this dosing plan is a pretty good compromise between hungry Ludwigia and touchy Lythraceae. There was little or no stunting in Rotala, Ammannia or Cuphea if I recall. I think of it as somewhere between PPS and EI in concentration, at least with macros. It's worth a try if you're struggling with Rotala under EI.
> 
> Then Tinkeritis kicked in hard. It's a form of intellectual OCD that takes over when things are going well. I sometimes wish a big hand would smack me upside the head when this happens. So I took a nice formula that works and tried to double/halve macros or double/halve micros to see what would happen. I didn't write down exactly what I attempted but I vaguely recall things not going quite as well. I should go back go Ghazanfar's formula, but some shiny object/idea caught my eye and that was that. At least when I was journaling over at Barr Report, I'd have written down exactly what went down. But nope.


Thanks for the detailed response. This is all very interesting to me because I have been trying to tweak my micro dosing and just can't seem to get everything completely happy at once. I mix my own concoction with the unchelated traces burr and everyone else are using but things just seem to be a tiny bit off with the tank. No real issues, just minor annoying stuff. I was contemplating duplicating seachems ratios but was unsure if I had to double or triple the levels because they seem pretty conservative compared to the levels most are using. I think I'm going to duplicate them and dose according to their label like you did and see what happens. Right now i'm stuck in a spot where I'm not sure if it is too much of one thing or not enough of another.


----------



## aclaar877

Wow, this is interesting, that someone figured out a formula to keep both Ludwigia and Lythraceae happy. I've had both happy before, but by accident. Lately many plants are unhappy with higher dosing levels. I have GH of 5.5 and KH of 3, so I might be able to pull it off. I calculated the resulting Fe/micros of by-the-book dosing of Flourish Comp, Trace, and Iron, and came up with this (minus stuff like vanadium and cobalt):

Fe	0.3346
Mn	0.0082
B	0.0038
Mo	0.0004
Zn	0.0114
Cu	0.00212
Ni	0.000002

Note the high Fe/Mn ratio, and relatively high copper compared to other elements. Feel free to check my math...


----------



## burr740

Yeah that Mn ratio gives me pause but Ive never tried it that high. Fe:Mn at 4-5:1 definitely works better than 2:1 though

Another interesting thing is how high their Zn is relative to everything else. That's always puzzled me. I tried following their logic with very high Zn, there must be a reason. I suspect its related to the behavior of non-chelated Zn in a water column because no plant research has ever indicated such a ratio. 

Personally I notice no difference between .04 and .07 ppm in a .2 Fe blend. Much over .07 seems to give a negative response, specifically Fe seems less efficient, just based on observation. 

Zn deficiencies appear at much lower than .04. So I believe there is some merit to running a pretty high level using these particular compounds

Here's the latest recipe if anyone is interested, probably the best so far. Dosing 4-5x per week.

Fe - .2 ppm
Mn - .05 ppm
B - .073 ppm
Zn - .05 ppm
Mo - .00175 ppm
Cu - .001 ppm (there's a little in my tap)
Ni - .0005 ppm

In other news: 50 could use a trim


----------



## jbvamos

aclaar877 said:


> Wow, this is interesting, that someone figured out a formula to keep both Ludwigia and Lythraceae happy. I've had both happy before, but by accident. Lately many plants are unhappy with higher dosing levels. I have GH of 5.5 and KH of 3, so I might be able to pull it off. I calculated the resulting Fe/micros of by-the-book dosing of Flourish Comp, Trace, and Iron, and came up with this (minus stuff like vanadium and cobalt):
> 
> Fe	0.3346
> Mn	0.0082
> B	0.0038
> Mo	0.0004
> Zn	0.0114
> Cu	0.00212
> Ni	0.000002
> 
> Note the high Fe/Mn ratio, and relatively high copper compared to other elements. Feel free to check my math...


 just curious what you did with the flourish trace and flourish levels since directions state to dose each one on alternating days? Did you average the two?


----------



## aclaar877

jbvamos said:


> just curious what you did with the flourish trace and flourish levels since directions state to dose each one on alternating days? Did you average the two?


I just added a single dose together, not realizing the alternating day instructions. Wanted to see total Fe/trace of what they call a single dose.


----------



## jbvamos

aclaar877 said:


> jbvamos said:
> 
> 
> 
> just curious what you did with the flourish trace and flourish levels since directions state to dose each one on alternating days? Did you average the two?
> 
> 
> 
> I just added a single dose together, not realizing the alternating day instructions. Wanted to see total Fe/trace of what they call a single dose.
Click to expand...

 I think they only want you to maintain a .1 Fe level too.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Here's the latest recipe if anyone is interested, probably the best so far. Dosing 4-5x per week.
> 
> Fe - .2 ppm
> Mn - .05 ppm
> B - .073 ppm
> Zn - .05 ppm
> Mo - .00175 ppm
> Cu - .001 ppm (there's a little in my tap)
> Ni - .0005 ppm


Burr thanks for posting this. 

You might find this funny. You also posted these on Sunday, and I noted them in a spreadsheet I keep on micros. So I see this, and between Sunday and today I notice you already have a change, upping the Mo just a bit. You are a mad scientist. And I get it, as mine keeps changing too.

I am at similar numbers. A little less Mn, and I upped B all the way to .09. Theory is with my high K it might be needed. So far so good, but too early to tell much. No stunting anyway.

Now as to Mo, looks like you have been steadily upping lately. I just made a fresh batch on Sunday, and I was at .0013. Curious as to why you've increasing it? And do you think a bit higher has been better for you? It doesn't seem to react too much with anything else.


----------



## rollinghighlander

How are you guys dosing? Dry dose, or do you have some automation?

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Burr thanks for posting this.
> 
> You might find this funny. You also posted these on Sunday, and I noted them in a spreadsheet I keep on micros. So I see this, and between Sunday and today In notice you already have a change, upping the Mo just a bit. You are a mad scientist. And I get it, as mine keeps changing too.
> 
> I am at similar numbers. A little less Mn, and I upped B all the way to .09. Theory is with my high K it might be needed. So far so good, but too early to tell much. No stunting anyway.
> 
> Now as to Mo, looks like you have been steadily upping lately. I just made a fresh batch on Sunday, and I was at .0013. Curious as to why you've increasing it? And do you think a bit higher has been better for you? It doesn't seem to react too much with anything else.



Haha I knew I posted it recently but thought it was another thread.


Mo has been anywhere between .0015 and .002 pretty much the whole time, except the very early days maybe. Ive never been able to notice a difference. But since it plays an important role in plants using NO3 Im gonna be inching it back up. As you said, it's a fairly "safe" something to add, low potential for toxicity and doesnt interact with much


----------



## burr740

rollinghighlander said:


> How are you guys dosing? Dry dose, or do you have some automation?


These micros are impossible to dry dose because its such low quantities. So you have to make a solution. I make a solution with macros too just because I have several tanks and it makes things easier.

Personally I dont have any automated dosing. Frankly the idea doesnt appeal to me. I like to hit a desired concentration all at once instead of little dribbles at a time.

For one thing, concentration affects absorption. Higher = easier for plants to get. For another thing a lot of these micros dont stick around very long in an available state (depends on other factors) So adding tiny amounts all through the day for example, there may never be adequate levels in the water column for every plant to get what it needs.

That's just my philosophy, I know a lot of people have good success auto dosing. If I was going to do it, it'd be big squirts at a time, not tiny droplets all through the day


----------



## chayos00

burr740 said:


> That's just my philosophy, I know a lot of people have good success auto dosing. If I was going to do it, it'd be big squirts at a time, not tiny droplets all through the day


I've been using the Jebao doser and it can be programed for once or several times a day. I have mine set to dose in one shot once a day for fertz. No dribble all day long with this device.


----------



## fablau

I am currently dosing with an auto-doser, just once a day for micros. 15ml dose in my 75gl tank. It takes about 10 minutes to drop 15ml in my 75gl tank.


----------



## chayos00

fablau said:


> I am currently dosing with an auto-doser, just once a day for micros. 15ml dose in my 75gl tank. It takes about 10 minutes to drop 15ml in my 75gl tank.


That's quite some time compared to the Jebao doser. It's done in about a minute. 30mL dose. 

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Dfeagley6

Hey Joe, did you end up sticking with the agromax 3000k? I've been using spectralux 3000k, which is my first 3000k t5, and it seems kind of dim to me. Also, it doesn't add a large amount of PAR like I've read it would. I don't use great reflectors, and my fixture is 28" from the substrate, but the spectralux 3000k with the PV633 give me a combine PAR of 26 at substrate. When I add the aquaflora and 6500k, I get a par of 73. If you like the agromax, I may give it a try


----------



## burr740

Dfeagley6 said:


> Hey Joe, did you end up sticking with the agromax 3000k? I've been using spectralux 3000k, which is my first 3000k t5, and it seems kind of dim to me. Also, it doesn't add a large amount of PAR like I've read it would. I don't use great reflectors, and my fixture is 28" from the substrate, but the spectralux 3000k with the PV633 give me a combine PAR of 26 at substrate. When I add the aquaflora and 6500k, I get a par of 73. If you like the agromax, I may give it a try



My 48"s are Plantmax brand and yeah they are beasts. The new 24" Agromax seems about the same although I havent checked it specifically like I have the other ones


----------



## Dfeagley6

I'm going to give the 48" plantmax a try. They are REALLY cheap from soslightbulbs. I've never ordered from there before though, so hopefully everything goes smoothly.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> My 48"s are Plantmax brand and yeah they are beasts. The new 24" Agromax seems about the same although I havent checked it specifically like I have the other ones


Plantmax 3000k is good high PAR for a heavily colored bulb. And while I didn't test the PV633, I did test the 660, which was by far the lowest PAR of all. 

FWIW, here are the PAR of several bulbs taken about 2" below the surface.

Giesmann Super Flora 108
Giesmann Tropic 95
Zoo Med Ocean Sun 89
Plantmax 3000k 87
ATI Purple Plus 80
Truelumen Flora 76
Powerveg 660 55

Which shows just how much you could vary the PAR in a tank just by the bulbs you choose.

And by the Burr, .09 B was too much. Might be a bit toxic at that level. Rotala Mac. Var. and a couple others showed some signs of stunting. Back to .055 which was working great.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Plantmax 3000k is good high PAR for a heavily colored bulb. And while I didn't test the PV633, I did test the 660, which was by far the lowest PAR of all.
> 
> FWIW, here are the PAR of several bulbs taken about 2" below the surface.
> 
> Giesmann Super Flora 108
> Giesmann Tropic 95
> Zoo Med Ocean Sun 89
> Plantmax 3000k 87
> ATI Purple Plus 80
> Truelumen Flora 76
> Powerveg 660 55
> 
> Which shows just how much you could vary the PAR in a tank just by the bulbs you choose.
> 
> And by the Burr, .09 B was too much. Might be a bit toxic at that level. Rotala Mac. Var. and a couple others showed some signs of stunting. Back to .055 which was working great.


That's a lot of B for every day. .09 x 7 = .63 ppm per week. Im doing .073 x 5 which is .365. Big difference! And it's definitely one micro you cant just lard on without repercussions

The Powerveg 660 may put out more than we think. Isnt it true that PAR meters start having trouble in the 660 range? Not sure but I think they do


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> That's a lot of B for every day. .09 x 7 = .63 ppm per week. Im doing .073 x 5 which is .365. Big difference! And it's definitely one micro you cant just lard on without repercussions
> 
> The Powerveg 660 may put out more than we think. Isnt it true that PAR meters start having trouble in the 660 range? Not sure but I think they do


damn, im really pushing it then. I'm at 0.085 ppm B x 6 for 0.51 weekly. I have harder tap water than you two though.

edit: nvm misread greggz's numbers

edit 2: out of curiosity what are the repercussions?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> damn, im really pushing it then. I'm at 0.085 ppm B x 6 for 0.51 weekly. I have harder tap water than you two though.
> 
> edit: nvm misread greggz's numbers
> 
> edit 2: out of curiosity what are the repercussions?


Its not so much considering you have 80 ppm Ca and a high PH. You raised it for a reason remember. 

Exact toxicity symptoms probably vary across species, stunting, old growth turning shtty,

This is crop related but still useful - https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-boron-in-plant-culture/

Greggz water is a whole lot softer than yours, so it'll be a lot "stronger" in his due to lower PH and lower Ca


----------



## slipfinger

@burr740

Read back a bunch of pages but either missed it or couldn't find the info.

Curious, whats your current Macro dosing in your AS tank compared to your BDBS tanks?


----------



## burr740

slipfinger said:


> @*burr740*
> 
> Read back a bunch of pages but either missed it or couldn't find the info.
> 
> Curious, whats your current Macro dosing in your AS tank compared to your BDBS tanks?


Macros for the sand tanks are currently 25 NO3. 30 K, 7 PO4 - per week. 60% of that after the weekly water change and two more 20% doses through the week.

The AS tank gets roughly 10 NO3, 25 K and 10-15 PO4. Its somewhat inconsistent because I have a pair of pill containers mixed with 5 ppm PO4, another pair with 15 K and 5 PO4, and also the main macro solution that I use for everything else in the room. Sometimes I'll grab one thing or the other but that's approximately what it gets. Low NO3 and extra high PO4, K about the same

Havent posted an FTS of the Dutch in a while...


:red_mouth


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> Macros for the sand tanks are currently 25 NO3. 30 K, 7 PO4 - per week. 60% of that after the weekly water change and two more 20% doses through the week.
> 
> The AS tank gets roughly 10 NO3, 25 K and 10-15 PO4. Its somewhat inconsistent because I have a pair of pill containers mixed with 5 ppm PO4, another pair with 15 K and 5 PO4, and also the main macro solution that I use for everything else in the room. Sometimes I'll grab one thing or the other but that's approximately what it gets. Low NO3 and extra high PO4, K about the same


You're such a tease! I think the tank looks good.. 

It's been sometime since I lasted mixed up some macros. To clarify, is that total K? Or is that an additional 30ppm above and beyond what you are already getting from KNO3 and KH2PO4?

Any UREA these days?


----------



## Greggz

Hey Burr I was meaning to ask you about something. 

I could have swore you just recently posted and said your PAR in the 75 is at about 90 at the substrate, but now I can't find the post. 

Is that correct? And if so, any differences you are seeing? I believe you were more like 110 or more in the 120?


----------



## RJSimoneaux

Im interested in your moss walls. Are they attached to the sides and back, is the space between and can you remove them. I like that look alot


----------



## RJSimoneaux

*when to dose*



burr740 said:


> These micros are impossible to dry dose because its such low quantities. So you have to make a solution. I make a solution with macros too just because I have several tanks and it makes things easier.
> 
> Personally I dont have any automated dosing. Frankly the idea doesnt appeal to me. I like to hit a desired concentration all at once instead of little dribbles at a time.
> 
> For one thing, concentration affects absorption. Higher = easier for plants to get. For another thing a lot of these micros dont stick around very long in an available state (depends on other factors) So adding tiny amounts all through the day for example, there may never be adequate levels in the water column for every plant to get what it needs.
> 
> That's just my philosophy, I know a lot of people have good success auto dosing. If I was going to do it, it'd be big squirts at a time, not tiny droplets all through the day


Very interesting, as to when to dose and how much. Fixing up my tanks on Apex to dose automatically and planned a major squirt(60 to 70 percent) before lights on then another dose at peak lighting times. only wondered about Iron thought might do it more. Any thoughts


----------



## slipfinger

RJSimoneaux said:


> Im interested in your moss walls. Are they attached to the sides and back, is the space between and can you remove them. I like that look alot


I'll help Joe out since he has a few questions to answer already... and I just happened to have these book marked, its on my list of things to try.

Moss wall how to.

New and improved moss wall.


----------



## Greggz

slipfinger said:


> I'll help Joe out since he has a few questions to answer already... and I just happened to have these book marked, its on my list of things to try.
> 
> Moss wall how to.
> 
> New and improved moss wall.


Now that is being helpful. Nice work!

Joe needs to create an index for this thread, it would be a lot easier to find what you are looking for!:grin2:


----------



## burr740

slipfinger said:


> You're such a tease! I think the tank looks good..
> 
> It's been sometime since I lasted mixed up some macros. To clarify, is that total K? Or is that an additional 30ppm above and beyond what you are already getting from KNO3 and KH2PO4?
> 
> Any UREA these days?


Total K includes what's in KNO3 and KH2PO4

Havent dosed urea in several months. Really couldnt tell that it was making any difference. But that was before adding Ni to the micro mix, which is required by plants to utilize urea. There should be some in the tap but who knows, maybe not. I'll probably try it again at some point



Greggz said:


> Hey Burr I was meaning to ask you about something.
> 
> I could have swore you just recently posted and said your PAR in the 75 is at about 90 at the substrate, but now I can't find the post.
> 
> Is that correct? And if so, any differences you are seeing? I believe you were more like 110 or more in the 120?


It's around 100 now with the current bulbs - ATI purp, 3000K, Powerveg 633, TruLumen flora

I miss having 6 bulb options  I'd put it back except the 6 bulb unit is about an inch wider than the tank



RJSimoneaux said:


> Very interesting, as to when to dose and how much. Fixing up my tanks on Apex to dose automatically and planned a major squirt(60 to 70 percent) before lights on then another dose at peak lighting times. only wondered about Iron thought might do it more. Any thoughts


You mean split Fe/micros up into smaller doses throughout the day? I'd do it in bigger doses like everything else. But Ive never tried it so... 



Greggz said:


> Joe needs to create an index for this thread, it would be a lot easier to find what you are looking for!:grin2:


LOL,This can help


----------



## Immortal1

LOL, yes the "search" function does work...
But, the challenge is figuring out exactly what to type. Some of us type in stupid search strings, some of us know exactly what to type.
I proudly belong to the former....


----------



## Saxa Tilly

In case you ever wondered what adding a pound or more of Osmocote to your substrate does to Rotala and Ammannia...I finally updated the Kill Tank thread over at BR. 

https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/page-46


----------



## Dfeagley6

Hey Joe, I got the plantmax in the mail. Here is the spectralux 3000k next to the plantmax 3000k. The plantmax is obviously much stronger. Thanks for the suggestion!


----------



## burr740

Cabomba furcata


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Cabomba furcata




One of my fave plants, awesome!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Cabomba furcata


Alright Burr you've got my interest. 

How long have you had it? Come to you that color? Or needed some of your magic to get there?

Growth rate? 

I've thought of this one before and dang it does look good in your tank.


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> Cabomba furcata


Does anyone know if this is also called Cabomba 'purple' or 'red'?

I've seen something like this sold around me called 'purple'.

I had some in my tank that was given that was listed as purple/red.


----------



## Quagulator

slipfinger said:


> Does anyone know if this is also called Cabomba 'purple' or 'red'?
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen something like this sold around me called 'purple'.
> 
> 
> 
> I had some in my tank that was given that was listed as purple/red.




I’ve got some that was sold online as ‘Red Cabomba’. 
It’s not quite as red as Joe’s in my pic (only pic I could dig up) but I’ve had it super red like his before. 











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Alright Burr you've got my interest.
> 
> How long have you had it? Come to you that color? Or needed some of your magic to get there?
> 
> Growth rate?
> 
> I've thought of this one before and dang it does look good in your tank.


Got it from Vin. It was bright pink with hints of purple. Turned orange in about two days.

It grows fast, not quite pantanal fast. Seems to be a pretty easy plant.

Also drops a lot or areal roots. Tough roots that you cant hardly pinch off, gotta use scissors. 

Otherwise it's a real stunner, I like it even better than pantanal

Here it is in the farm. Early in the day










Late in the day












slipfinger said:


> Does anyone know if this is also called Cabomba 'purple' or 'red'?
> 
> I've seen something like this sold around me called 'purple'.
> 
> I had some in my tank that was given that was listed as purple/red.


Not sure, I think there are several varieties but it may be all the same thing under different names. It's pretty common as far as I know


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Red, furcata, piauhyensis are all synonymous.

This stuff grew great for me but only on the tops, nodes real close and pink to red.
The bottoms did not like my capped soil, stem would always rot off.
Then always floating up.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Got it from Vin. It was bright pink with hints of purple. Turned orange in about two days.
> 
> It grows fast, not quite pantanal fast. Seems to be a pretty easy plant.
> 
> Also drops a lot or areal roots. Tough roots that you cant hardly pinch off, gotta use scissors.
> 
> Otherwise it's a real stunner, I like it even better than pantanal
> 
> Here it is in the farm. Early in the day


S - O - L - D! 

I will be finding some.


----------



## Quagulator

Maryland Guppy said:


> Red, furcata, piauhyensis are all synonymous.
> 
> 
> 
> This stuff grew great for me but only on the tops, nodes real close and pink to red.
> 
> The bottoms did not like my capped soil, stem would always rot off.
> 
> Then always floating up.




Exactly what’s happening to mine (plus stunting) 

But when it grows well the bottoms will shoot off loads of roots (yes Joe is right about HAVING to use scissors to chop the roots off) and the lower “leaves” are 1/4 as nice as the uppermost new growth. 





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rhiro

slipfinger said:


> Does anyone know if this is also called Cabomba 'purple' or 'red'?
> 
> I've seen something like this sold around me called 'purple'.
> 
> I had some in my tank that was given that was listed as purple/red.


I believe Joe has the Red species.

The purple is the common cheaper of the two.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

rhiro said:


> The purple is the common cheaper of the two.


Caroliniana is the green, cheapest and most common.
Purple & red are of about the same cost.
None of the above mentioned should cost more than 5-8 dollars for a "bunch" / group of stems.

True red has 3 petioles per node vs. the others having only two.
This a true identifier in the species.


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Yeah that Mn ratio gives me pause but Ive never tried it that high. Fe:Mn at 4-5:1 definitely works better than 2:1 though
> 
> Another interesting thing is how high their Zn is relative to everything else. That's always puzzled me. I tried following their logic with very high Zn, there must be a reason. I suspect its related to the behavior of non-chelated Zn in a water column because no plant research has ever indicated such a ratio.
> 
> Personally I notice no difference between .04 and .07 ppm in a .2 Fe blend. Much over .07 seems to give a negative response, specifically Fe seems less efficient, just based on observation.
> 
> Zn deficiencies appear at much lower than .04. So I believe there is some merit to running a pretty high level using these particular compounds
> 
> Here's the latest recipe if anyone is interested, probably the best so far. Dosing 4-5x per week.
> 
> Fe - .2 ppm
> Mn - .05 ppm
> B - .073 ppm
> Zn - .05 ppm
> Mo - .00175 ppm
> Cu - .001 ppm (there's a little in my tap)
> Ni - .0005 ppm
> 
> In other news: 50 could use a trim


Looking back this was the most recent I could find on the Micros. I need to mix up a batch today/ tomorrow, so just curious if this is working well as if right now, or is the B too high? 

Just thinking about the experience Gregg just had. I am dosing 3-4 times per week right now.


----------



## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> Caroliniana is the green, cheapest and most common.
> Purple & red are of about the same cost.
> None of the above mentioned should cost more than 5-8 dollars for a "bunch" / group of stems.
> 
> True red has 3 petioles per node vs. the others having only two.
> This a true identifier in the species.


That's good to know. Mine has 3 per node



Grobbins48 said:


> Looking back this was the most recent I could find on the Micros. I need to mix up a batch today/ tomorrow, so just curious if this is working well as if right now, or is the B too high?
> 
> Just thinking about the experience Gregg just had. I am dosing 3-4 times per week right now.


I'd do B at .05-.06 ppm. Although I havent seen anything specific to blame on the level Im dosing, it's still pretty damn high. I stopped seeing additional benefits past the 05-06 range (4-5x week).

But it also depends on your levels of Ca, K, and probably NO3. The higher all three of those are, the more B it's gonna take. All three are pretty high in my set ups. If you have really soft water, say 10-15 ppm of Ca, you might wanna go with .04-.05

Besides B everything else should be good. Cu can be .002


In other news, Ludwigia curly tornado is looking pretty sweet


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> That's good to know. Mine has 2 per node


Never seen furcata with only 2?
Maybe there are more varieties of red?
@Tinanti could maybe shed some light on this?


----------



## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> Never seen furcata with only 2?
> Maybe there are more varieties of red?
> 
> @*Tinanti* could maybe shed some light on this?



LOL, that's a typo. Mine definitely has 3 per node, that's what I meant to say


----------



## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Got it from Vin. It was bright pink with hints of purple. Turned orange in about two days.
> 
> It grows fast, not quite pantanal fast. Seems to be a pretty easy plant.
> 
> Also drops a lot or areal roots. Tough roots that you cant hardly pinch off, gotta use scissors.
> 
> Otherwise it's a real stunner, I like it even better than pantanal


In my Aquasoil tank with high light, it is hot pink. It is a pain in the butt with its weekly trimming and stem roots. But it is still so worth it! Old school plant that I have fallen back in love with. 

No idea how it turned orange in Burr's tank. Not sure what I like more, the orange or pink. 

Back in the day, it used to get leggy and melt like others here have been saying. Now, it is indestructible. It doesn't give two sh1ts about ferts. Dose whatever the heck you want. But it loves high light and CO2. Nothing improves color like light. Under low light and high nitrate, it gets olive green with hints of color. 

I usually keep one stem around because I don't want to part with it.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Saxa Tilly said:


> I usually keep one stem around because I don't want to part with it.


Is this a "greed" statement among us plant collectors? >
I fall into the same trap all the time!
Then 1 stem turns into so much more.


----------



## vvDO

Saxa Tilly said:


> In my Aquasoil tank with high light, it is hot pink. It is a pain in the butt with its weekly trimming and stem roots. But it is still so worth it! Old school plant that I have fallen back in love with.
> 
> 
> 
> No idea how it turned orange in Burr's tank. Not sure what I like more, the orange or pink.
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the day, it used to get leggy and melt like others here have been saying. Now, it is indestructible. It doesn't give two sh1ts about ferts. Dose whatever the heck you want. But it loves high light and CO2. Nothing improves color like light. Under low light and high nitrate, it gets olive green with hints of color.
> 
> 
> 
> I usually keep one stem around because I don't want to part with it.




My sentiments exactly... I once trimmed a few stems short and gave them to a friend, little did I know it does not like to send off shoots if you chop it and it hasn’t already sent off a side shoot... lost the plant... stump remained for a few weeks until it got shaded by other plants. Now I know to keep at least 1 topping just in case.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rhiro

Hey Joe,

Decided to show my 40B. A number of these plants came from you so thought I would post it here. Unfortunately the tank is crammed in a tight space and I cannot take a front on picture.

The bacopa colorata starts off with a nice purplish color on the top half but fades to green at the end of the day. Next to it the ludwigia acurata color washed out in the pic.

The limo aromatica mini (right-front, barclaya and erio vietnam) right to left came from you and are doing well. 

Still a work in progress but I am pretty happy with it.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Joe you got any tips for planting Lagenandera Meeboldii? mine's keeps floating off for the past 2 weeks lol


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Hey Joe,
> 
> Decided to show my 40B. A number of these plants came from you so thought I would post it here. Unfortunately the tank is crammed in a tight space and I cannot take a front on picture.
> 
> The bacopa colorata starts off with a nice purplish color on the top half but fades to green at the end of the day. Next to it the ludwigia acurata color washed out in the pic.
> 
> The limo aromatica mini (right-front, barclaya and erio vietnam) right to left came from you and are doing well.
> 
> Still a work in progress but I am pretty happy with it.


Tank is looking great man! And yes I see a lot of familiar faces, glad to see they have such a nice home! Thanks for sharing 



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Joe you got any tips for planting Lagenandera Meeboldii? mine's keeps floating off for the past 2 weeks lol


 How is this even possible with bdbs? Do they not make roots? Mine are prolific rooters

*In other news:* I finished up the Dutch and submitted it for the AGA contest yesterday. 

It's OK I guess. Ive looked at it so long these past few days all Im seeing are the various issues... issues everywhere!! lol

I think the layout is pretty good, not great but improved from last year. There were a couple of late additions and it really needs another week or two for a few things to fatten up. In human terms its still a teenager, not quite an adult yet. But yesterday was the deadline...










Shoutout to @LRJ for the Pink Ramshorn snails. I love those things! They've multiplied a lot and really stand out against all this darkness. I even included them on the livestock list for the contest entry.


----------



## Immortal1

Beautiful teaser Joe! If the rest of the tank looks that good (and I assume it does), the rest of the competition will be in a bit of trouble.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> How is this even possible with bdbs? Do they not make roots? Mine are prolific rooters


barely any roots. the one at the top has been in my tank 5ever too.


I think I might have shaded them too much. how high is your PAR at the spot your Lagenandera is growing?



> In other news I finished up the Dutch and submitted it for the AGA contest yesterday.
> 
> It's OK I guess. Ive looked at it so long these past few days all Im seeing are the various issues, issues everywhere!! lol
> 
> I think the layout is pretty good, not great but improved from last year. There were a couple of late additions and it really needs another week or two for a few things to fatten up. In human terms its still a teenager, not quite an adult yet. But yesterday was the deadline...
> 
> Heres a teaser
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shoutout to @LRJ for the Pink Ramshorn snails. I love those things! They've multiplied a lot and really stand out against all this darkness. I even included them on livestock list for the contest entry.


glad I didn't enter the dutch category this year LOL. only submitted for the regular one.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> *In other news:* I finished up the Dutch and submitted it for the AGA contest yesterday.
> 
> It's OK I guess. Ive looked at it so long these past few days all Im seeing are the various issues... issues everywhere!! lol
> 
> I think the layout is pretty good, not great but improved from last year. There were a couple of late additions and it really needs another week or two for a few things to fatten up. In human terms its still a teenager, not quite an adult yet. But yesterday was the deadline...
> 
> Here's a teaser


What a beautiful picture Joe. I hope others appreciate the attention to detail that goes into this.

Trimming and presenting each species to fit your vision is painstaking work. And the way you get such perfect color out of each is remarkable. 

Again, I think most have no idea how difficult this is to achieve, and just how much time, thought, and labor goes into creating your presentation.

Good luck with this years contest. Regardless of the outcome, you should know you are an inspiration to myself and I am sure many others here.


----------



## Wobblebonk

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> barely any roots. the one at the top has been in my tank 5ever too.
> 
> 
> I think I might have shaded them too much. how high is your PAR at the spot your Lagenandera is growing?
> 
> 
> 
> glad I didn't enter the dutch category this year LOL. only submitted for the regular one.



Mine are all from tissue culture but my lagenandra all have way more roots than that, even with some of them being heavily shaded with smaller leaves than that. 
Started from tissue culture, the pieces that get the most light for me are doing the best... but all of them have way more roots than I see on yours. Some growing in sand and some in calcined clay but nothing looking like yours. Your rhizomes are bigger than mine, but my roots and leaves are bigger with no missing chunks? Sadly I've got no tips as to why yours makes no roots...


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> barely any roots. the one at the top has been in my tank 5ever too.
> 
> 
> I think I might have shaded them too much. how high is your PAR at the spot your Lagenandera is growing?


Yeah something is definitely not right. It should have many thick white roots after 2-3 weeks. After a month the root system will be bigger than the plant. 

Mine is pretty much in the brightest spot in the tank, about 105 at the sub 



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> glad I didn't enter the dutch category this year LOL. only submitted for the regular one.


Probably a good move. Yours is more Nature Style, it belongs in the main category. Dutch style has very strict rules and criteria that has to be met.

Scroll down here for Dutch rules - AGA Aquascaping Contest Guidelines

Failure to check at least most of those boxes means disqualification. Just take a look at all the DQ's in last years entries. Some really amazing tanks but unfortunately they didnt qualify as Dutch.

Im looking forward to seeing your entry pics. I think scape-wise your tank has come a very long way in the past year or so. All while battling various plant problems at the same time. That's no small feat!!



Greggz said:


> What a beautiful picture Joe. I hope others appreciate the attention to detail that goes into this.
> 
> Trimming and presenting each species to fit your vision is painstaking work. And the way you get such perfect color out of each is remarkable.
> 
> Again, I think most have no idea how difficult this is to achieve, and just how much time, thought, and labor goes into creating your presentation.
> 
> Good luck with this years contest. Regardless of the outcome, you should know you are an inspiration to myself and I am sure many others here.



Thanks Gregg, I appreciate it!!


----------



## burr740

Hyptis lorentziana










Limnophila indica (ambulia)










I was close to tapping out against this plant a couple of months ago, it just grows so fast and needs redoing literally every week. Almost tossed it....but I needed a big fuzzy green and all fuzzy greens grow fast.

What I used to do is painstakingly replant one stem at a time. Then I said screw it and started doing 4-5 at a time, just grab them all with tweezers and stuff them down in the same hole. Ambulia life is much easier now


----------



## burr740

Occasionally I manage to get a decent shrimp shot


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Occasionally I manage to get a decent shrimp shot


Nice pic Joe.

I call them Clown Loach snacks. 

Wish I could keep them. Maybe someday.


----------



## hbosman

Is that Black Diamond Blasting Sand?


----------



## burr740

hbosman said:


> Is that Black Diamond Blasting Sand?


Yep, it's what I use in all tanks except one aquasoil 50 gal.

And Im not at all impressed with this Aquasoil btw. After that initial burst of ammonia that first month, now it's no better than any other tank. Its just nasty and dusty and dirty and a pain in the freakin ass to work with.


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> Yep, it's what I use in all tanks except one aquasoil 50 gal.
> 
> And Im not at all impressed with this Aquasoil btw. After that initial burst of ammonia that first month, now it's no better than any other tank. Its just nasty and dusty and dirty and a pain in the freakin ass to work with.


 I am unable to purchase BDBS where I live and way to costly to ship in. Would you know how the grain size compares to aquarium sand at one of the big box stores?

I have tried the National Geographic black sand but I mixed it with flourite/eco complete as I was concerned plants would have difficulty growing in sand alone


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> I am unable to purchase BDBS where I live and way to costly to ship in. Would you know how the grain size compares to aquarium sand at one of the big box stores?
> 
> I have tried the National Geographic black sand but I mixed it with flourite/eco complete as I was concerned plants would have difficulty growing in sand alone


There's nothing special grain-wise about bdbs, most are using 20/40 medium grit, which is just small particles like any other sand. Except for like playground sand which is really fine and has a lot of dust, prone to compact.

What makes bdbs so great is it's dirt cheap, has a good grain size so it never compacts, and it never loses color. As far as plant suitability I would think aquarium brand sands are at least equal. Dont see why they'd be worse?

Plants grow well in sand, its very easy for them to root, so no worries as far as that goes


----------



## chayos00

Biggest thing about sand in my opinion is if you go thicker to have Malaysian trumpet snails to mix the sand up to keep it from getting gas pockets. But if you are under 2" I would think that shouldn't be an issue. 

However being on Hawaii, I was telling my wife this when we were on Kauai and Oahu about two weeks ago, I would have a saltwater setup for sure. Thinking that I could possibly catch my own salt water fish, that is if it's legal and collect my own saltwater and just run it through a fine filter to keep the crap out of the water.


----------



## burr740

Had to restart the 20H again. As it turns out, capping fresh Aquasoil/powersand with bdbs is NOT a good idea! 

The tank's had a wicked green water bloom for the past 6 weeks. The slightest disturbance would bring it on, like pulling 3 stems of something up. In the beginning my little portable 5 watt UV would knock it out but for the last month it wouldnt even touch it. So bad you couldnt see 3" past the front glass.

So I decided to just restart it.

Inspired by @*Xiaozhuang* 's low NO3 dosing routines, and @*Saxa Tilly* 's recent results in the Dutch and Kill Tanks , Im gonna try and see if I can duplicate their results dosing NO3 around 15 ppm/week.

The new substrate is all BDBS with a fairly heavy application of Osmocote+

Put down just enough sand to cover the bottom first to keep the O+ balls from rolling around. Then top it off with the rest.










Light is four T5HO with a sinlge reflector. Par at the sub is about 95

Daily dosing:

NO3 - 2.5 ppm
PO4 - .8 ppm
K2SO4 - 1 ppm
Fe - .1
Mn - .03
B - .03
Zn - .03
Mo - .001
Cu - .0015
Ni - .0003

Usually do water changes every 6 days in all tanks, so those amounts are dosed 6x between water changes.

Also 15 ppm K and 7 Mg 1x each week after a water change (tap has 35-40 ppm Ca) 

I believe this is pretty close to Xiaozhuang's daily routine (sans a little urea and uber rich soil). For weekly totals it's almost a match to Vin's current routine in the 180.

Im also starting this routine in the Aquasoil 50. Up until now macros were about the same dosed 1x week after water changes. Most things doing well, some arent, but that's a story for another day.

Plants are a mixture of "nutrient hogs" and a few Lythracae sprinkled in for good measure.

Three days old










Left side is Staurogyne purple, Ludwigia sp red, Clinopodium brownei, Penthorum sedoides, one Pantanal, in back three wallichii and three Ammania crassicaulis...and a nana snow white Anubias (thats color on the lower leaves, not algae  )










Right side is Blyxa novoguineensis. This plant was blood red when I got it from Vin about a month ago, 35 ppm NO3 per week quickly took care of that. We'll see if it colors back up with lower levels

Other plants over here are Ludwigia senegalensis, Rotala mini butterfly, a few Rotala sunsets, one tiny sprig of mac variegated you cant really see, in back is Ludwigia palustris

Fissidens fox log is there to give a baby bristlsnose pleco a place to hide and some wood to gnaw on. He's under there now you can barely see the tip of his nose










So....we'll see how it goes!


----------



## Greggz

Burr even your test tank looks great!

This should be very, very interesting. I'll be watching closely.

Great idea and really looking forward to seeing where this goes.


----------



## Immortal1

Greggz said:


> Burr even your test tank looks great!
> 
> This should be very, very interesting. I'll be watching closely.
> 
> Great idea and really looking forward to seeing where this goes.



x2 on Greggs comment - stellar looking 20. I would post a pic of my 20g tank but, uh...... no


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

looking forward to this experiment.

did you weight how much osmocote you poured in?


----------



## fablau

Great experiment! Eager to follow... just one note Joe: is .04 ppm of PO4 daily correct? Or did you add one zero by mistake?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> looking forward to this experiment.
> 
> did you weight how much osmocote you poured in?


Eyeballed it. Ive started tanks out with more, and usually a little less, so I knew the general ballpark I wanted to be in



fablau said:


> Great experiment! Eager to follow... just one note Joe: is .04 ppm of PO4 daily correct? Or did you add one zero by mistake?


Crap, yeah that's supposed to be .8, not .08. Good catch!


----------



## Little Soprano

Hi Burr,

The wonderful color rendition you get in your tank has me itching to go with different bulbs. I have 5 very old 6500k bulbs (Sunblasters with the Deflectors) in need of replacing. What would you recommend? I have Odessa’s so I would love to have the red really pop.


----------



## acino

I am very curious about this experiment, especially about Lythraceae plants. I hope you will be willing to try to stunt them eventually, so that Pikez is not the only plant killer out there.


----------



## burr740

Little Soprano said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> The wonderful color rendition you get in your tank has me itching to go with different bulbs. I have 5 very old 6500k bulbs (Sunblasters with the Deflectors) in need of replacing. What would you recommend? I have Odessa’s so I would love to have the red really pop.


Having all 6500K will give very poor color rendition. To make colors pop you need heavy red and blue in the mix.

Forget about intensity or nitrates or whatever, while those things are important, as well as general plant health - nothing affects plant color as much as the color of the light shining on them. 

Couple pages back I posted pics of Crypt flamingos under two different lights. I'd just received in the mail. Same exact plants in the exact same condition, the day after they arrived. Under one light they were bright poppin pink, under the other light they were just a drab brown. 

As far as how plants look to our eyes bulb color makes all the difference in the world

For four bulbs I like 

1 x 3000K
1 x 420 actinic, or ATI purple
1 x Deep red like Powerveg 633 or 660
1 x Pink flora type like giesemann super flora, Zoomed flora sun, pretty much any aquarium brand with "flora" in the name will do










With 5 bulbs you could throw a 6500K in the mix, and you might wanna go with two flora types instead of the 3000K, depending on how 'warm' you like it. If you dont want to spring the cash for a Powerveg you could do a flora in place of that.

All of them will grow plants just fine, it's only a matter of what you think looks the best.



acino said:


> I am very curious about this experiment, especially about Lythraceae plants. I hope you will be willing to try to stunt them eventually, so that Pikez is not the only plant killer out there.


Oh trust me if these dont stunt I can show you some that are. We cant let Vin have all the fun!!


----------



## Greggz

acino said:


> I am very curious about this experiment, especially about Lythraceae plants. I hope you will be willing to try to stunt them eventually, so that Pikez is not the only plant killer out there.


I did a spit take when I read that.

Thanks for the LOL!!:grin2:


----------



## AgMa

burr740 said:


> For four bulbs I like
> 
> 1 x 3000K
> 1 x 420 actinic, or ATI purple
> 1 x Deep red like Powerveg 633 or 660
> 1 x Pink flora type like giesemann super flora, Zoomed flora sun, pretty much any aquarium brand with "flora" in the name will do


This is yours? Are there seperate reflectors? Seems like red and blue don't have reflectors


----------



## Little Soprano

Thanks for the advice! I will order some bulbs this weekend. Everything does look lack luster under the 6500ks.


----------



## Greggz

Hey Burr which tank did the Ammania crassicaulis come out of?

Mine is turning the corner, and looks a lot like those. Just curious what environment they were in?

I just plopped mine in the tank seeing what it would do. The one stem is now three, and if it continues to improve, going to have to find a real spot for it.


----------



## burr740

AgMa said:


> This is yours? Are there seperate reflectors? Seems like red and blue don't have reflectors


That's the Oddysea over this new 20. It only has one reflector for all four bulbs. Which is fine because I didnt want monster light, just the bulb options.

The big tanks all have individual reflectors


----------



## jeffkrol

burr740 said:


> So I decided to just restart it.
> 
> 
> The new substrate is all BDBS with a fairly heavy application of Osmocote+
> 
> Put down just enough sand to cover the bottom first to keep the O+ balls from rolling around. Then top it off with the rest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So....we'll see how it goes!



That's a heck of a lot of Osmocote..
Personally I'm surprised it doesn't burn your plants..



I've used it myself, in much smaller quantities but I have mental doubts that it is always "helpful" since normal Osmocote is not designed for total immersion..


Seems risky but I suppose w/ the frequency of your water changes that is somewhat mitigated..


I've had my own personal, and unproven, problems w/ OC and high CEC substrates. Can't prove it was due to OC or some other factor I've missed but I do have some doubts.
fortunately your sand is non-CEC.


This is from Scotts Australia:
https://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/...mocote-plus-trace-elements-total-all-purpose/


> Not suitable for
> Do not use in hydroponic growing systems, ponds or pots submerged in water



and they have a specific submersible product. Granted some is just for "support"
https://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/...-trace-elements-water-gardens-aquatic-plants/


Ever check your nitrates right before the first water change???


----------



## kaldurak

@burr740 could you re-post your pink flamingo pics? I scrolled and scrolled and must have missed them 😞


----------



## burr740

kaldurak said:


> @*burr740* could you re-post your pink flamingo pics? I scrolled and scrolled and must have missed them 😞


Good light










Poor light (its the one plant behind the AR mini)










You can also tell a big difference in how the AR mini looks, top left in the good light pic


----------



## burr740

jeffkrol said:


> That's a heck of a lot of Osmocote..
> Personally I'm surprised it doesn't burn your plants..
> 
> I've used it myself, in much smaller quantities but I have mental doubts that it is always "helpful" since normal Osmocote is not designed for total immersion..
> 
> Seems risky but I suppose w/ the frequency of your water changes that is somewhat mitigated..
> 
> I've had my own personal, and unproven, problems w/ OC and high CEC substrates. Can't prove it was due to OC or some other factor I've missed but I do have some doubts.
> fortunately your sand is non-CEC.
> 
> This is from Scotts Australia:
> https://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/...mocote-plus-trace-elements-total-all-purpose/
> 
> 
> and they have a specific submersible product. Granted some is just for "support"
> https://www.scottsaustralia.com.au/...-trace-elements-water-gardens-aquatic-plants/
> 
> Ever check your nitrates right before the first water change???


Nah its not gonna burn plants, not even close. Ive used this much before -










https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html

Most sand tanks I'll start out with about half this much, a couple Ive done with none at all. Cant say Ive noticed a big difference, but I usually start out dosing heavy too so...

The only thing Ive ever seen it spike is PO4, which seems to last about a week then stops. Others say it's spiked ammonia or nitrates but Ive never seen it. Not that Ive ever checked too closely for it though. In my mind its not really something to worry about.

Vin just used a whole pound in that last kill tank experiment. Now that DID spike some stuff! lol

But still no plant burning. Link is above if you wanna read about that


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Hey Burr which tank did the Ammania crassicaulis come out of?
> 
> Mine is turning the corner, and looks a lot like those. Just curious what environment they were in?
> 
> I just plopped mine in the tank seeing what it would do. The one stem is now three, and if it continues to improve, going to have to find a real spot for it.


Hey Gregg, I somehow missed this post the other day. These came from the 50 gal Aquasoil tank. In that tank about 2/3 do so-so, 1/3 stunt but still grow. These look decent but the leaves are supposed to be flat, not curled in a cylindrical shape. Some of that new growth is better than the old 

It stunts pretty bad in the farm 75. Tough plant to kill. It doesnt melt or die, just grows poorly with gnarled up leaves.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> It stunts pretty bad in the farm 75. Tough plant to kill. It doesnt melt or die, just grows poorly with gnarled up leaves.


Thanks Joe, I'm just happy it's still alive right now. Unusual for an Ammannia in my tank!:grin2:


----------



## kaldurak

burr740 said:


> kaldurak said:
> 
> 
> 
> @*burr740* could you re-post your pink flamingo pics? I scrolled and scrolled and must have missed them 😞
> 
> 
> 
> Good light
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Poor light (its the one plant behind the AR mini)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You can also tell a big difference in how the AR mini looks, top left in the good light pic
Click to expand...

Thank you, burr. I'm glad to see that mine looks like yours! I am doing a thing right!


----------



## ChrisX

Burr740,

Do you have CO2 in your test tank?


----------



## burr740

kaldurak said:


> Thank you, burr. I'm glad to see that mine looks like yours! I am doing a thing right!


Well I hate to shatter the illusion but that was the day after I got them, and they're doing like crap ever since

Have them in 3 different tanks: high fert sand w/some O+, med fert sand with no O+, and fresh aquasoil. In all three tanks they are basically just sitting there, slowly degrading.

So if yours still look like the ones in the pic after any period of time.... you're probably doing better with them than I am. :/



ChrisX said:


> Burr740,
> 
> Do you have CO2 in your test tank?


Of course! PH drops about 1 by lights on, peaks around 1.2 or so.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Well I hate to shatter the illusion but that was the day after I got them, and they're doing like crap ever since
> 
> Have them in 3 different tanks: high fert sand w/some O+, med fert sand with no O+, and fresh aquasoil. In all three tanks they are basically just sitting there, slowly degrading.


Joe if it makes you feel any better, the same for mine.

Still going to let it sit there, but it looks pretty bad and not happy.


----------



## kaldurak

burr740 said:


> kaldurak said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, burr. I'm glad to see that mine looks like yours! I am doing a thing right!
> 
> 
> 
> Well I hate to shatter the illusion but that was the day after I got them, and they're doing like crap ever since
> 
> Have them in 3 different tanks: high fert sand w/some O+, med fert sand with no O+, and fresh aquasoil. In all three tanks they are basically just sitting there, slowly degrading.
> 
> So if yours still look like the ones in the pic after any period of time.... you're probably doing better with them than I am. 😕
> 
> 
> 
> ChrisX said:
> 
> 
> 
> Burr740,
> 
> Do you have CO2 in your test tank?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Of course! PH drops about 1 by lights on, peaks around 1.2 or so.
Click to expand...

I'll grab a photo today, mine are retaining Pink with green veins, quite pretty, and I've got a goodly amount of new growth since I planted them. Somehow I experienced Zero melting since I planted them from the gel cup.


----------



## burr740

New Blyxa alternifolia in the Dutch. Starting to get some nice red (still at 30 ppm NO3/week)


----------



## Greggz

Oh Geez why did you have to do that? 

First thing I saw it I thought where could I put it.

Is that the one from Vin? Good looking plant!


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Oh Geez why did you have to do that?
> 
> First thing I saw it I thought where could I put it.
> 
> Is that the one from Vin? Good looking plant!


Yeah, got it from Vin about 6 weeks ago. It was a little redder than this and it immediately turned green. (those damn nitrates, right?)

I put a few in different tanks. They all sat there for a couple weeks doing nothing and I was beginning to wonder. Then all of a sudden they perked up and started growing. Just needed time to adjust to different parameters I guess.

The ones in the aquasoil 50 are taller, about 3"-4". The tops are a more complete red but less vivid, which is probably the light.


----------



## kaldurak

Here we be, current state of my flamingo crypt.


















I like how it looks so far. I'm sure if I had better lighting and/or less shading over it that it would be more pink.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk


----------



## Maryland Guppy

We won't talk about the pink crypt that I once possessed but has now disintegrated into oblivion.

Crypt Albida Red it once was.
Tissue culture has never worked well for me under any conditions.


----------



## burr740

kaldurak said:


> Here we be, current state of my flamingo crypt.
> 
> I like how it looks so far. I'm sure if I had better lighting and/or less shading over it that it would be more pink.


Those are freakin prize winners compared to mine. Which are basically doing this in 3 different stet ups.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Those are freakin prize winners compared to mine. Which are basically doing this in 3 different stet ups.


LOL Burr looks exactly like mine. The best day it had was the day I took it out of the box!:grin2:

But like I said, I am letting it go. You never know.....sometimes it just takes time. Doubtful, but who knows?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> LOL Burr looks exactly like mine. The best day it had was the day I took it out of the box!:grin2:
> 
> But like I said, I am letting it go. You never know.....sometimes it just takes time. Doubtful, but who knows?


I cant help but think they are lacking something. They'll slowly put out a new leaf but it never fully unrolls. Meanwhile any older leaves die off usually faster than the new leaves come in.

But, if I pull one up it's usually already divided into several babies at the base. Babies that havent broken the surface yet. I can split the babies and they'll do the same thing.

If I didnt know better I'd think they were lacking a key nutrient or two, something that prevents normal development....but what???


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> I cant help but think they are lacking something. They'll slowly put out a new leaf but it never fully unrolls. Meanwhile any older leaves die off usually faster than the new leaves come in.
> 
> But, if I pull one up it's usually already divided into several babies at the base. Babies that havent broken the surface yet. I can split the babies and they'll do the same thing.
> 
> If I didnt know better I'd think they were lacking a key nutrient or two, something that prevents normal development....but what???


have you tried to see if it'll grow better in harder water?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> have you tried to see if it'll grow better in harder water?



You mean with more Ca? No I havent tried that, might be something to think about


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> I cant help but think they are lacking something. They'll slowly put out a new leaf but it never fully unrolls. Meanwhile any older leaves die off usually faster than the new leaves come in.
> 
> But, if I pull one up it's usually already divided into several babies at the base. Babies that havent broken the surface yet. I can split the babies and they'll do the same thing.
> 
> If I didnt know better I'd think they were lacking a key nutrient or two, something that prevents normal development....but what???


Wow, a plant that @burr740 can't grow well!! Ah AH! Kidding 

Seriously, it's puzzling that you can grow pretty much everything top notch and that plant is giving you trouble. Following your thought that it is probably lacking something, I guess you have already tried O+ underneath, right? And in any case, what's the difference in environment with @kaldurak 's tank? Why is he growing it better?


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> You mean with more Ca? No I havent tried that, might be something to think about


There is a youtuber who I watch that lives in Texas. His Flamingo seems to grow well. He mentioned that his water is liquid rock.


----------



## burr740

Yeah I have them with O+ and without, same thing. But remember O+ removed Ca a few years ago, so it's not providing any of that

Just looking at the symptom, low Ca makes sense. The tap has a confirmed 35-40, so there's plenty in the water.

Might be time to look at other nutrients that have a strong antagonistic relationship with Ca and see if something might need lowering. 

Lets break out the old trusty Mulder's Chart










Fe -already lowered recently, and in those two 20s its only .6 per week
Mn, B and Zn - all recently lowered too over the past couple of months
K - fairly high but still lower than Ca. Many plants have shown to like this much so I dont think its K
Mg - running approximately a 3:1 ratio. Overall things seem better than with, say a 5:1. Dont think Mg is a problem

PO4 - this is a big one, it has a strong effect on other stuff. And over the last couple of months Ive inched up to 7.5-8 ppm per week. That's a whopping amount by any standards (looking at you Gregg!)

Of course its probably a combination of all of the above, because they all work against Ca to some degree, and visa versa.

So Im just thinking in terms of what could stand to be lower.

Think I'll drop PO4 down to 5 per week, just in those 20Ls and see what happens.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Might be time to look at other nutrients that have a strong antagonistic relationship with Ca and see if something might need lowering.
> 
> Lets break out the old trusty Mulder's Chart
> 
> PO4 - this is a big one, it has a strong effect on other stuff. And over the last couple of months Ive inched up to 7.5-8 ppm per week. That's a whopping amount by any standards (looking at you Gregg!)


This is an interesting one Joe. And what you described is exactly like mine. Roots look/feel healthy, not melting. New leaves look good (pink) but small, then old ones waste away.

But here's the problem for me. With so many other plants doing well, is it worth it rocking the boat for one? Tough decision. If it really likes hard water, are you going to raise yours enough to help it?

Now if you get it to perk up, I would probably try it too, but only to a point. But dang it looks like it would be a really nice plant if it was happy.

7.5-8 ppm PO4 per week? Yeah, you are right on my tail now. Anything jump out at you as raise it?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> But here's the problem for me. With so many other plants doing well, is it worth it rocking the boat for one? Tough decision. If it really likes hard water, are you going to raise yours enough to help it?


I really dont look at it as rocking the boat for one plant. I see it as an indication of a weak link somewhere and it's affecting everything, or a lot of things, even if its not obvious. Something is out of balance and these crypts just happen to be taking it the hardest.

Im not even considering adding more Ca. 35-40 is plenty for anything. Plenty. If it really is a Ca issue then something else is interfering with it.

Which brings us to the next point



Greggz said:


> 7.5-8 ppm PO4 per week? Yeah, you are right on my tail now. Anything jump out at you as raise it?


When I first started going from 6 to 7, to 7.5 then 8 ppm PO4 per week, did this over a period of about 6 weeks, yes it seemed obvious that a lot of plants liked it.

But (there's always a but) this was also during the time I was dosing .2 and .25 Fe daily. So in reality the plants werent liking the PO4 so much, what it was actually doing is "lowering the dose" of all that Fe and micros via antagonism. Like a counterbalance

My opinion on using that much Fe is like I said about Ca above. If you need more than around 1 ppm per week then there's something else interfering with it.

And lately, after dosing 8 ppm PO4 per week for about a month, Ive noticed a few things slowly getting smaller. Nothing major, just tops growing smaller than they should be. Acmella for one, that plant is bullet proof so there has to be a reason. Couple others doing the same thing.

Also during the last 3-4 weeks is when I went back down to .9 ppm Fe per week in the big tanks. Well guess what, lowering Fe essentially made the PO4 "stronger"

And before you say maybe the reduced size is due to lower Fe/micros, it's not because a few months back everything was groovy dosing .15 6x per week (the v.XX.15s) PO4 was also lower back then, in the 5-6 per week range. This worked well for at least 3 months

So my gut is telling me PO4 is way too high these days. And the more I think about it the more it would explain a few other things Ive been seeing lately.

Im about to drop it down to 5 or so in all tanks...


----------



## LRJ

fablau said:


> Wow, a plant that @burr740 can't grow well!! Ah AH! Kidding


But you know it's only a matter of time :laugh2:


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> I really dont look at it as rocking the boat for one plant. I see it as an indication of a weak link somewhere and it's affecting everything, or a lot of things. Something is out of balance and these crypts just happen to be taking it the hardest.
> 
> Im not even considering adding more Ca. 35-40 is plenty for anything. Plenty. If it really is a Ca issue then something else is interfering with it.
> 
> Which brings us to the next point
> 
> 
> 
> When I first started going from 6 to 7, to 7.5 then 8 ppm PO4 per week, did this over a period of about 6 weeks, yes it seemed obvious that a lot of plants liked it.
> 
> But (there's always a but) this was also during the time I was dosing .2 and .25 Fe daily. So in reality the plants werent liking the PO4 so much, what it was actually doing is "lowering the dose" of all that Fe and micros via antagonism. Like a counterbalance
> 
> My opinion on using that much Fe is like I said about Ca above. If you need more than around 1 ppm per week then there's something else interfering with it.
> 
> And lately, after dosing 8 ppm PO4 per week for about a month, Ive noticed a few things slowly getting smaller. Nothing major, just tops growing smaller than they should be. Acmella for one, that plant is bullet proof so there has to be a reason.
> 
> Also during the last 3-4 weeks is when I went back down to .9 ppm Fe per week in the big tanks. Well guess what, lowering Fe essentially made the PO4 "stronger"
> 
> And before you say maybe the reduced size is due to lower Fe/micros, it's not because a few months back everything was groovy dosing .15 6x per week (the v.XX.15s) PO4 was also lower back then, in the 5-6 per week range. This worked well for at least 3 months
> 
> So my gut is telling me PO4 is way too high these days. And the more I think about it the more it would explain a few other things Ive been seeing lately.
> 
> Im about to drop it down to 5 or so in all tanks...


Very interesting stuff.

My Fe is at 1.05 weekly. I never went past that amount. 

And of course, every tank is different. We all have different amounts of X affecting Y & Z. 

If you see some benefit going to 5 or so, I may look at reducing mine. But for me it would be very slowly. In the past when I lowered P I did it in one step. 

Now you also mentioned you lowered B over the past few months. And it's possible you are seeing an effect from this as well.

I recently dropped my B from .055 to .045. As you know, it's an effort to please my Macranda V. Interesting thing is Macranda starting bouncing back immediately, like within two days. I'll get a pic this weekend. But some of the plants that seemed to love the higher B have slowed down. Helferi is a good example. As I raised B (no other changes at all) Helferi took off. Same with L. Super Red Mini. Leaves got very large. Kind of like yours that you posted not too long ago.

Both have slowed down since lowering B.

And I'm not as convinced this Crypt is exposing an imbalance. Let's take any Ammannia. If I were to change my dosing to bring out the best in Ammannia, I am pretty confident others would suffer. But I am very curious to see if you can perk that Crypt up. 

I also noticed that while @kaldurak has it growing very healthy, the color is much different than mine (and I think yours too). Mine is much more pink. Does it mean anything? Doubt it. But could be it would be happier shaded or under a little less light? Just thinking out loud. 

So where is the best balance? Not sure, but I do believe all this monkeying around is getting it closer.


----------



## Quagulator

A while back I had a standard sword growing in a no-tech tank. Well, I say "growing" but it wasn't actually --> just more or less "sitting" there. 

Anyways, it was in a tank that was using softened water, gH = 0 as per API kit (no color change from orange to green, straight to very faint yellow color) so no Ca at all. 

I figured WTH? lets see what CaSO4 in a root tab would do. So I built up a couple my little custom tabs but added some gypsum and viola, that sword took off and never looked back. Easily quadrupled in size in 4 weeks, got too big I had to sell it off and buy a smaller variety LOL. I was using those tabs without any Ca prior to this, so I know the Ca was the weak link in that particular plant's growth. 

It may seem crude, but maybe toss some gypsum at the roots of 1 or 2 and see if they perk up at all? Just a thought anyway...


----------



## burr740

@Greggz - All good points. B is back down to where it was with the xx.15 versions (with the big L reds) So I dont "think" its anything to do with B, but you're right, lots of moving parts here to consider.

As for rocking the boat for one plant. Yeah in a way it is, if not for these other nagging issues that have creeped up lately I probably woundnt mess with it. But regardless, it just about has to be an indicator that Ca isnt as efficient as it should be, especially with 40 ppm in the water. These crypts need more than most plants is why they are the first and the worst to show it.

Of course we are still only assuming Ca is the problem in the first place. Dont know for sure.

Either way these high PO4 levels are a big red flag. And there's only one way to find out! 

@Quagulator that's a great idea. Unless something dramatic happens quickly from lowering P I will definitely try it


----------



## kaldurak

I swear I'm not doing anything special. Inert blasting sand, dry ferts measured as stated on the nilocg page for a 20 to 40 gallon tank. No additional MG or CA. No O+ pellets or balls. Kh of 7, GH of 12ish. Co2 on at 6am, levels are nosebleed by noon when the lights I control come on (lots of windows in the room and only blinds to diffuse the light.) Lights on from noon to 6pm. Lights are finnex planted plus 247 CC and a feit electric led plant spotlight (heavy red).

My tank grows the 2 crypts I put in awesome, rotala whither and dies. Blyxa japonica flourishing, ludwigia repens flourishing, ludwigia red something something withering and struggling. So some stuff is hit or miss and other plants are doing great. 

I'm resigning to having to try out plants, see what does well and use those that do well and toss the stragglers rather than trying to adjust the tank parameters to suit every plant out there, I'll focus on what grows great for my water. Odds are if I try to make my tank friendly to the few plants that don't want to grow I'll just throw too much off kilter and then everything will struggle more. Grateful for what I have that grows great.


----------



## n70me

Hi Burr,

Iam new to this forum. This thread has lot of info for the learners like me.

One thing that surprised me is the absorption of phosphate by ADA aquasoil which i never heard of. One thing i was not so clear is it the ADA soil alone or even the ADA power sand that also consumes phosphate . I have a 50Litre tank which was setup using ADA amazonia with power sand an 1.5year ago. Does ADA absorb P04 only when it is new ? Does it also absorb when it is old.

Appreciate if you can provide the this information.

Thanks,


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> Iam new to this forum. This thread has lot of info for the learners like me.
> 
> One thing that surprised me is the absorption of phosphate by ADA aquasoil which i never heard of. One thing i was not so clear is it the ADA soil alone or even the ADA power sand that also consumes phosphate . I have a 50Litre tank which was setup using ADA amazonia with power sand an 1.5year ago. Does ADA absorb P04 only when it is new ? Does it also absorb when it is old.
> 
> Appreciate if you can provide the this information.
> 
> Thanks,


Hi

This was just ADA Amazonia, no Power Sand

PO4 absorption (adsorption?) slows down after the first few months, but I think AS tanks always need more than inbert subs

During the second month it would take 10-12 ppm dosed in one whack down to zero by the end of one week.

Third month this amount would be down to around 2 ppm after a week

It's been almost 5 months now and Im dosing 1 ppm daily. PO4 in the water column stays around 1-2 ppm.

For the first 3-4 weeks I wasnt even dosing PO4, plus the extra water changes, so no data points on that. But I would imagine it pulls in a fierce amount when its brand brand new


----------



## ipkiss

fablau said:


> Wow, a plant that @burr740 can't grow well!! Ah AH! Kidding


Fer real! I'm gonna have to rethink my Burr Micros order/dosing strategy. 

I kid .. I kid.  

I think the tissue cultures for crypt flamingos are a rough way to start. That stuff completely melted away in my tank. I ended up buying a juvi with 3-4 leaves and .. well, it still has 3-4 leaves. Just as an old one goes out, a new one takes its place. It's been like that for months now. So, I guess it's hanging on for now. Fingers crossed.


----------



## NightHedgie

burr740 said:


> Either way these high PO4 levels are a big red flag. And there's only one way to find out!


Will you be lowering your FE too?


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> You mean with more Ca? No I havent tried that, might be something to think about


When my Crypts start to not do so well, usually when biomass gets high, I know it's time to start adding more Ca. It may be worth a try.


----------



## n70me

thanks Burr for your response.

Sorry to ask you, i have another basic question after looking at the positions of the filter/reactor outlets. From the picture I assume the left outlet is pointing to the other extreme (i.e right side front) and the reactor outlet is pointing to the centre of the tank. Is my understanding correct. I have drawn a picture as shown below green arrows indicating the filter output ?does it create a big circle as show in the green line and the blue line indicating the reactor outlet but i may be wrong please correct.


----------



## burr740

NightHedgie said:


> Will you be lowering your FE too?


Not right now. Currently Fe is .3 3x per week and Im gonna leave it like that for a while



Phil Edwards said:


> When my Crypts start to not do so well, usually when biomass gets high, I know it's time to start adding more Ca. It may be worth a try.


Interesting.

I put a bump's worth of Ca sulfate in a gel cap under each one a couple days ago. We'll see what that does...

Three days ago in the 75's I did a 70% water change and skipped PO4 in the usual 60% macro dose. So that was a pretty big reduction. Several things immediately perked up. Sounds crazy after only two days, but if you look at a tank every day you get used to picking up subtle nuances when something is good.

Im going back to around 4 per week, that should free up some Ca



n70me said:


> thanks Burr for your response.
> 
> Sorry to ask you, i have another basic question after looking at the positions of the filter/reactor outlets. From the picture I assume the left outlet is pointing to the other extreme (i.e right side front) and the reactor outlet is pointing to the centre of the tank. Is my understanding correct. I have drawn a picture as shown below green arrows indicating the filter output ?does it create a big circle as show in the green line and the blue line indicating the reactor outlet but i may be wrong please correct.


Its more like this










CO2 is connected to the right hand filter. It has the strongest gph. Aimed about the center of the front glass where it sorta disperses all around in the lower area. The left filter is aimed at the surface going straight across the back, primarily to provide good surface agitation. Then it blows on over to the right and goes down the wall over there. For the most part the left side flow passes over and above the general direction of the right side flow, because the right side is aimed down.

There is a some intersection with the two flows, which is generally to be avoided, but if the flow is too strong to begin with having them intersect can be a way of reducing velocity (plants arent blown around as much) as long as the intersecting flows do not create dead spots.


----------



## NightHedgie

Hi, my S Repens are kind of getting crowded and bunched together.... How do I do maintenance on them?


----------



## kaldurak

NightHedgie said:


> Hi, my S Repens are kind of getting crowded and bunched together.... How do I do maintenance on them?


Pull the whole lot of them, trim it apart as needed, then replant the stems you want to keep. Easiest way to thin out s repens.


----------



## burr740

Random pics:

Trying my hand at blood vomits again. Its been a couple years. Put 3 in the Dutch and 1 in Aquasoil










Pink ramshorn doing work! Love these things










Pogosteman kimberly getting a lot more red since reducing P. These are young stems too, not replanted tops










Buces bloomin in the Dutch. Need to prune some of those shoddy leaves off










Fresh trim in the 50. Rotala macranda caterpillar. The pink ones to the right is some kind of hybrid I got from Vin. R mac something x something, pretty cool plant. Ammania crassicaulis in back doing just enough to survive as usual. Its doing best in the 75 farm tank


----------



## fablau

Very nice as always Joe. I see you lowered P and saw improvements, how much have you reduced it?


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

how often do your buces bloom? think I only saw mines bloom once for like the past year


----------



## burr740

fablau said:


> Very nice as always Joe. I see you lowered P and saw improvements, how much have you reduced it?


3.5 ppm per week down from 7.5-8 in the big tanks. Idk if 3.5 will be enough long term but so far the results are great. Better colors and size, more pearling, and general liveliness. A few things that seemed to be stuck for no apparent reason have sprung back to life.

B colorata, which I didnt mention before had lost almost all its color over the last month, and the tops were growing smaller than usual. I couldnt figure out why until I went back a few months to see what everything was then. Micros I'd already gone back to v.xx.15, which worked great for several months, so I knew it wasnt a micro thing. The only thing that was different was higher PO4. 

Now... you'd think that would've occurred to me sooner, Hey dumbass your P is double these days!  The thing is it took about 3-4 weeks for the negatives to fully set in. I'd slowly been inching it up over about 3 months. Topped out around 8 ppm a few weeks ago. So PO4 wasnt really even on my mind at this point

Anyway, about midway that first week of lowering it they colored right back up and are growing fat like Buttercups again. By "lowering it" what I did was a 70% water change and skipped PO4 in the initial front-loaded macro dose to start the week. So the drop was immediate, didnt take a few weeks to get there.

Pantanal sorta freaked that first week. It was fat and healthy the whole time, didnt seem to mind the high P levels. Then right after reducing it, some of the top leaves wouldnt close up at night, like 25% just random leaves on the very top. These same leaves also turned sorta ragged looking. Then by the second week they looked fine again. That's really the only negative Ive seen so far.

I feel like it was definitely hindering Fe, probably Ca, and possibly some other stuff.



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> how often do your buces bloom? think I only saw mines bloom once for like the past year


I have 3 different species and over the last two years they've each bloomed exactly one time. This is the first time these ever bloomed.

Fwiw they were just beginning to sprout buds right before reducing PO4, so I dont think that had anything to do with it.

Maybe somebody that knows can chime in on what makes Buces bloom?


----------



## slipfinger

burr740 said:


> By "lowering it" what I did was a 70% water change and skipped PO4 in the initial front-loaded macro dose to start the week. So the drop was immediate, didnt take a few weeks to get there.


Do you mix separate solutions for your macros? 

I'm considering doing this. This way I can mix a large batch of each and just dose each of my tank as I see fit, along with giving me the ability to change things without having to mix up a new batch.


----------



## burr740

slipfinger said:


> Do you mix separate solutions for your macros?
> 
> I'm considering doing this. This way I can mix a large batch of each and just dose each of my tank as I see fit, along with giving me the ability to change things without having to mix up a new batch.


I put them all in one, just did that dose dry w/o PO4. Having them separate would be useful though


----------



## Jaye

One of my two buce’s blooms all of the time, the other maybe three times in two years. They’re literally right next to eachother in the tank, so I have no idea why the difference in frequency.


----------



## NightHedgie

burr740, if you've dropped the P down to 3.5ppm, won't the GSA show their ugly faces?


----------



## burr740

I think people put too much emphasis on the relationship between GSA and PO4. My opinion is that while high levels of PO4 might "kill it" , low PO4 doesnt cause it if the plants are happy. 

From what Ive seen, the same thing causes GSA as any other algae we deal with - dirty conditions and unhappy plants. Emphasis on the latter with gsa.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

grats on 3rd place in the AGA dutch category Joe :grin2:


----------



## n70me

Hi Burr,

What's your feedback on Seachem Trace? Unfortunately i have a brand new bottle of it before i plan to roll my own micro mix. Does seachem use chelated or non chelated Mn,Ze,Mo,Zn..etc? 

Thanks,


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> What's your feedback on Seachem Trace? Unfortunately i have a brand new bottle of it before i plan to roll my own micro mix. Does seachem use chelated or non chelated Mn,Ze,Mo,Zn..etc?
> 
> Thanks,


I'd go ahead and use it. Just follow the directions at first, or do 1.5x. You might need a little more. Some of the ratios could be improved imo but it's pretty good stuff. Works well for a lot of folks

Ingredients are the exact same non-chelated compounds we're using in the DIY micros (Mo and B are anions, they are never chelated)


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> grats on 3rd place in the AGA dutch category Joe :grin2:


Thanks man! It's an honor just to place.

I knew it'd have problems if some real competition showed up. The biggest issue to me is it was still a little immature. I was sorta scrambling at the last minute with a couple new species, and pruning and placement. It really needed a couple more weeks to thicken up better. 

But I would've still got spanked for too many reds, lol

That one comment about all species not being named, I listed the buces in the background section. Did the same thing last year but I guess I should've included them in the main drawing

Oh well, there's no shame in losing to Bart Freakin Laurens! Im glad better entries showed up this year. Hope the trend continues

Here's some bigger pics


----------



## burr740

1. Limnophila chinesis, 2. Hyptis lorentziana, 3. Helanthium bolivianum Angustifolia, 4. Ludwigia sp red, 5. Ludwigia polycarpa, 6. Pogostemon kimberly, 7. Hygrophila siamesis 53B, 8. Hemianthus Callitrichoides Cuba, 9. Lagenandra meeboldii red round, 10. Limnophila indica, 11. Acmella repens, 12. Blyxa japonica, 13. Cabomba furcata, 14. Nymphoides hydrophylla Taiwan


Link for anyone who needs it - https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2018/index3.html


----------



## Grobbins48

I have been waiting to see these shots for a while! Absolutely beautiful work, and the colors are just stunning!


----------



## LRJ

WOW! Now that is a stunner! 

The fact it only took third place shows how strong this field was at the top. 

I'm pumped that Bart Laurens entered again this year. That is great for the future of the category, and as you say, no shame in losing to one of the top Dutch masters.

Amazing work, Joe. Congrats!


----------



## ipkiss

congrats! I'm happy that you used some of the frillier plants like the cabomba and the limnophila indica, 13 and 10.


----------



## Greggz

Congratulations Joe! 

Another stunner, that is for sure. Beautiful healthy plants and painstakingly presented. 

I hope folks appreciate just how much work goes into this. Very few have the skills it requires, and even less are willing to make that kind of commitment. 

You are in some high end company there this year. Glad to see you continue to get the recognition you deserve.

Also reaffirms why your tank has been an inspiration to me since I first started considering going high tech planted (and I am sure it's the same for many, many more here on this site!). 

So thanks for all your contributions to the hobby. You are still providing something for us all to emulate and shoot for.


----------



## n70me

burr740 said:


> I'd go ahead and use it. Just follow the directions at first, or do 1.5x. You might need a little more. Some of the ratios could be improved imo but it's pretty good stuff. Works well for a lot of folks
> 
> Ingredients are the exact same compounds we're using in the DIY micros (Mo and B are anions, they are never chelated)



Thanks Burr. Congratulations for the award.

Do you have a link to make DIY non Fe micro? Should i just mix the quantities in the distilled water? Anything else needed vinegar..etc?

Also, iam not sure if it would be easy to prepare DTPA/EDTA Fe . Should i mix FeS04 with EDTA/DTPA? Do you have a link which explains how to do it along with all the ingredients?


----------



## vvDO

n70me said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> 
> 
> What's your feedback on Seachem Trace? Unfortunately i have a brand new bottle of it before i plan to roll my own micro mix. Does seachem use chelated or non chelated Mn,Ze,Mo,Zn..etc?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks,




I don’t believe Trace had chelators and no iron...
Comprehensive has iron as ferrous gluconate again not chelated.











Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vvDO

Joe great job placing in top 3 in 2 consecutive years, tank looked great. Inspiring work!


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## Immortal1

Great looking submittal pics as always. As others have said, always an honer just to place. And considering the other submittals, 3rd is still impressive.
It still fasinates me as I look at your tank and then think about the meticulis trimming and placement I have done with my tank and it looks nothing like something one would submit for competition. Can only imagine the preparation you must go thru to gt things just right. Something you did that made me think was the black and white pic with the grouping numbers. I kinda tried doing that with mine except I left it a color pic - did not read as well. Again, another one of those little details most people overlook. Again, congrats!


----------



## MCFC

Since you're no longer #1, I guess I need to find a new journal to follow... >


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## Ken Keating1

Beautiful tank!!! Congrats on 3rd place, that's fantastic. I can't imagine the effort you must put into to this. Just the timing must be difficult, that is, having all the plants at just the correct height, width and having the background plants just below the surface. Geez, I would have a difficult time with just one plant to be perfect, but you do it with multiple plants. In my book award places in the top ten all fall into the same category as absolutely stunning beautiful tanks with no places, because at that level it's so subjective to what can be considered the best tank. And to do that a couple of years in a row is very impressive, you've done a great job!


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the comments and support from everyone.

We'll get 'em next year!! :red_mouth



n70me said:


> Thanks Burr. Congratulations for the award.
> 
> Do you have a link to make DIY non Fe micro? Should i just mix the quantities in the distilled water? Anything else needed vinegar..etc?
> 
> Also, iam not sure if it would be easy to prepare DTPA/EDTA Fe . Should i mix FeS04 with EDTA/DTPA? Do you have a link which explains how to do it along with all the ingredients?


To make the micro solution you'll use a calculator like rotalabutterfly.com

Enter your tank size, dosing container, dose size and all that. Then figure each compound for whatever ppm you want each dose to have. The calculator will tell you how much to add to your dosing container.

You can make it whatever strength you want. Here's a good general recipe to start with, 3x per week or up to daily. Id start with 3x

Fe - .15 ppm
Mn - .05 ppm
B - .035 ppm
Zn - .05 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Use distilled water and add 10-15 ML of vinegar per 500 ml. Common 'distilled white vinegar' thats made for cooking. Ascorbic acid is a little better, .5 gram per 500 ml, but vinegar works fine too

I have no idea how to chelate your own Fe. Best bet would be to just buy some DTPA.

Are you in the US? I have all these things if you need a source. Cant ship to other countries though


----------



## burr740

Here it stands today, grow out mode. Added a few more species since I dont have to worry about limits for a while. Just gonna chill and play with different arrangements










Too bad the Lagenandra wasnt this full a month ago










Trying Lud cuba where the kimberly was. (Thanks Gregg!) So far it's not doing great, subpar color and wants to lean badly. I keep whacking it down to start over but it keeps doing the same thing.










Giant Willow moss in place of Fissidens. I like this moss, looks like an Anemone 

New sword, Echinodorus Hadi Red Pearl, stays small










Gonna let those Hyptis stumps behind it grow out then put something green right there


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## Immortal1

Just spent a bit of time looking thru all the entries in this years Dutch category. I am very amazed at the 1st place tank. But I think what amazed me even more was going thru each submittal, looking at the main picture and trying to guess what the judges comments would be before looking at them. In most cases I saw incredible looking tanks - and the judges, well, they did not. Just goes to show I have a LONG way to go 

And yes Joe, next year!


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## ChrisX

That looks great! I've never seen a "buce wall" like that before. Is that experimental?


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## vijay_06

Congrats! Stunning.. just stunning!!!


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## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> Just spent a bit of time looking thru all the entries in this years Dutch category. I am very amazed at the 1st place tank. But I think what amazed me even more was going thru each submittal, looking at the main picture and trying to guess what the judges comments would be before looking at them. In most cases I saw incredible looking tanks - and the judges, well, they did not. Just goes to show I have a LONG way to go


Going back and reading the judges comments on past tanks is a great way to learn about the Dutch style. After a while it starts to soak in what to do and what not to. Most of the common mistakes are repeated over and over. Ive spent A LOT of time doing this on previous year's entries. 

Actually applying the knowledge, well thats where the fun begins



ChrisX said:


> That looks great! I've never seen a "buce wall" like that before. Is that experimental?


Thanks. The Buces are stuck in place with plastic zip ties.

The zip tie goes around the Buce like so










The long part of the zip tie is pushed through the holes in the plastic mesh. Its just the right width to hold snug. The extra length just folds over against the glass behind the wall panel

Makes it easy to adjust the position or move them around


----------



## Edward

burr740 said:


> 3.5 ppm per week down from 7.5-8 in the big tanks. Idk if 3.5 will be enough long term but so far the results are great. Better colors and size, more pearling, and general liveliness. A few things that seemed to be stuck for no apparent reason have sprung back to life.
> 
> B colorata, which I didnt mention before had lost almost all its color over the last month, and the tops were growing smaller than usual. I couldnt figure out why until I went back a few months to see what everything was then. Micros I'd already gone back to v.xx.15, which worked great for several months, so I knew it wasnt a micro thing. The only thing that was different was higher PO4. … I feel like it was definitely hindering Fe, probably Ca, and possibly some other stuff.


 What PO4 water column levels before and after?




> Pink ramshorn doing work! Love these things


I couldn’t do without them … , they love to be called Red Ramshorn.


----------



## Immortal1

"Going back and reading the judges comments on past tanks is a great way to learn about the Dutch style. After a while it starts to soak in what to do and what not to. Most of the common mistakes are repeated over and over. Ive spent A LOT of time doing this on previous year's entries.

Actually applying the knowledge, well thats where the fun begins"

Funny / interesting you worded your response that way. Many years ago I competed with my show truck. Initially got my butt handed to me at the big shows. Then I found out I could get copies of the judges card (very helpful). Fast forward about 4 years and guess what - I got Best of Show. It really helps to pay attention to what the judges say / think. 

Now, if only I still had that passion :grin2:


----------



## Edward

Immortal1 said:


> "Going back and reading the judges comments on past tanks is a great way to learn about the Dutch style. After a while it starts to soak in what to do and what not to. Most of the common mistakes are repeated over and over. Ive spent A LOT of time doing this on previous year's entries.
> 
> Actually applying the knowledge, well thats where the fun begins"
> 
> Funny / interesting you worded your response that way. Many years ago I competed with my show truck. Initially got my butt handed to me at the big shows. Then I found out I could get copies of the judges card (very helpful). Fast forward about 4 years and guess what - I got Best of Show. It really helps to pay attention to what the judges say / think.
> 
> Now, if only I still had that passion :grin2:


 Why does it matter, … isn’t more important what you like?


----------



## burr740

Edward said:


> What PO4 water column levels before and after?


Its hard to say because all I have is API liquid test. I can distinguish between zero, 1 or 2, and then closer to 5. Beyond that is just guessing. Before it was blue off the charts, now it appears to be at least 5.


Also would like to point out for anyone who doesnt know, 3.5 ppm per week isnt exactly low, standard EI calls for 3.9...


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Good job Joe! :grin2:

I always check out the comments.
50/50 for what I agree with.


----------



## Immortal1

@Edward - sometimes what you "want" can be more important than what you "like". At one point in my life I wanted to get Best of Show. So, I built what I liked but with the primary intent on impressing the Judges. In the end I got what I wanted. And then I got to have some fun


----------



## Edward

burr740 said:


> Its hard to say because all I have is API liquid test. I can distinguish between zero, 1 or 2, and then closer to 5. Beyond that is just guessing. Before it was blue off the charts, now it appears to be at least 5.


 With the test kit you need to add RO to the tested sample to push it to lower readings where the resolution is the best. But I think with your nutrient levels calculating dosage and water changes give more accurate water column concentrations because the plant uptake is insignificant when considering the dosing you use. 


> Also would like to point out for anyone who doesnt know, 3.5 ppm per week isnt exactly low, standard EI calls for 3.9...


 When plants get P saturated they need only 0.1 – 0.2 ppm a day to maintain stored levels.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Trying Lud cuba where the kimberly was. (Thanks Gregg!) So far it's not doing great, subpar color and wants to lean badly. I keep whacking it down to start over but it keeps doing the same thing.


That's funny Joe.

Pogo K. is very easy to arrange, and will pose pretty for a picture.

L. Cuba has a mind of it's own. Tough to tame and arrange according to a plan. Nonetheless I do like it. 

And as mentioned above by Ken, ranking those top spots is very subjective. They are all stunning in their own right. And what most don't realize is how many rules there are in Dutch. Vin put together a list one time, and my eyes glazed over halfway through reading it. 

And one more thing. Been out of town and haven't had time to comment. But it's curious your comment that the color in your Pogo K. is due to lowered P. I just raised mine a bit, and noticed how it colored up even more. Of course, haven't seen the tank since last week, so will get a better look and maybe some pictures tomorrow to compare.


----------



## fablau

Congratulations Joe for the 3rd prize. Your tank is a jewel as always.

Very interesting your latest findings about lowering PO4. You are now dosing what I used to dose a few months back having more issues than now (now I am dosing around 7-8ppm per week).

Greg, are you also lowering PO4 or are you still around 8 ppm per week?


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> We'll get 'em next year!! :red_mouth


Oh, will we?  

This year's entry was a big improvement on last year's. Well done!


----------



## Greggz

fablau said:


> Greg, are you also lowering PO4 or are you still around 8 ppm per week?


Fab I am at a little over 10 ppm PO4 per week, and have been dosing at least 8 ppm for nine months.

I've been experimenting more on the high side, as tank seems to do better with the rich environment. At least I haven't seen anything that tells me I need to back it off yet.

Now keep in mind I am performing a 70% water change per week, so that affects my accumulation. And like always, it seems to be working well in MY tank, so I wouldn't base too much on that.

And all that being said, at some point I intend to slowly back it down, just to see what happens. In the past, I hit a certain point where the tank tells me it needs more (usually anything less than 5 ppm for me).

Of course, if I had any sense at all I'd probably just dose straight Burr............I mean just look at those pics above!:grin2:


----------



## kaldurak

Congrats on you podium win! Love watching your tank and reading the journal!


----------



## n70me

burr740 said:


> Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the comments and support from everyone.
> 
> We'll get 'em next year!! :red_mouth
> 
> 
> 
> To make the micro solution you'll use a calculator like rotalabutterfly.com
> 
> Enter your tank size, dosing container, dose size and all that. Then figure each compound for whatever ppm you want each dose to have. The calculator will tell you how much to add to your dosing container.
> 
> You can make it whatever strength you want. Here's a good general recipe to start with, 3x per week or up to daily. Id start with 3x
> 
> Fe - .15 ppm
> Mn - .05 ppm
> B - .035 ppm
> Zn - .05 ppm
> Mo - .0015 ppm
> Cu - .002 ppm
> Ni - .0005 ppm
> 
> Use distilled water and add 10-15 ML of vinegar per 500 ml. Common 'distilled white vinegar' thats made for cooking. Ascorbic acid is a little better, .5 gram per 500 ml, but vinegar works fine too
> 
> I have no idea how to chelate your own Fe. Best bet would be to just buy some DTPA.
> 
> Are you in the US? I have all these things if you need a source. Cant ship to other countries though


Thanks Burr. Will try this after some time. Iam from India :frown2:.

I hope mixing all the non Fe traces in a single bottle should not be an issue i suppose.

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Fab I am at a little over 10 ppm PO4 per week, and have been dosing at least 8 ppm for nine months.
> 
> I've been experimenting more on the high side, as tank seems to do better with the rich environment. At least I haven't seen anything that tells me I need to back it off yet.
> 
> Now keep in mind I am performing a 70% water change per week, so that affects my accumulation. And like always, it seems to be working well in MY tank, so I wouldn't base too much on that.
> 
> And all that being said, at some point I intend to slowly back it down, just to see what happens. In the past, I hit a certain point where the tank tells me it needs more (usually anything less than 5 ppm for me).
> 
> Of course, if I had any sense at all I'd probably just dose straight Burr............I mean just look at those pics above!:grin2:


Does high phosphates has any relation to BGA(cyano)? Does an improper N(or NO3) ratio cause it? Some how i feel high po4 along with some other combination may be high organics/or low nitrates is causing BGA in my tank. Iam always cautious with PO4 keeping it at 1PPM. Iam surprised to see you going at 10PPM? Whats your N/No3 when P is 10PPM?


----------



## fablau

Greggz said:


> Fab I am at a little over 10 ppm PO4 per week, and have been dosing at least 8 ppm for nine months.
> 
> 
> 
> I've been experimenting more on the high side, as tank seems to do better with the rich environment. At least I haven't seen anything that tells me I need to back it off yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Now keep in mind I am performing a 70% water change per week, so that affects my accumulation. And like always, it seems to be working well in MY tank, so I wouldn't base too much on that.
> 
> 
> 
> And all that being said, at some point I intend to slowly back it down, just to see what happens. In the past, I hit a certain point where the tank tells me it needs more (usually anything less than 5 ppm for me).
> 
> 
> 
> Of course, if I had any sense at all I'd probably just dose straight Burr............I mean just look at those pics above!:grin2:




Makes perfect sense, thanks [emoji4]

Looking forward to see the developments.


----------



## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> Oh, will we?
> 
> This year's entry was a big improvement on last year's. Well done!


Thanks man. That was the primary goal to improve on last year's entry. Now it's to improve on this one. 



Greggz said:


> Fab I am at a little over 10 ppm PO4 per week, and have been dosing at least 8 ppm for nine months.
> 
> I've been experimenting more on the high side, as tank seems to do better with the rich environment. At least I haven't seen anything that tells me I need to back it off yet.
> 
> Now keep in mind I am performing a 70% water change per week, so that affects my accumulation. And like always, it seems to be working well in MY tank, so I wouldn't base too much on that.
> 
> And all that being said, at some point I intend to slowly back it down, just to see what happens. In the past, I hit a certain point where the tank tells me it needs more (usually anything less than 5 ppm for me).
> 
> Of course, if I had any sense at all I'd probably just dose straight Burr............I mean just look at those pics above!:grin2:


Dont stop experimenting! :red_mouth

To play devil's advocate, if going from 8 ppm PO4 per week, up to 10 shows improvement. Then imo you're overdosing something else. The improvement is not because the plants need more P, but because the higher P is effectively "lowering the dose" of something else by out competing it for uptake by the plants. In other words taking its place.

Or maybe the plants DID need more P, but only because high levels of something else was overpowering it. As in an opposite scenario to the above. Either way it amounts to the same thing.

Might be time to break out the Mulder chart and look for likely suspects. Fe would be on top of my list, possibly some other micro(s). Your Ca isnt all that high.

Or you can just dose what works and not worry about it.  Balanced is balanced, whether its on the low side or the high. 

I remember back in the day you used to get away with a lot more csmb than I ever could. So despite the many similarities between our tanks they still seem to function best at different levels of certain things



n70me said:


> Thanks Burr. Will try this after some time. Iam from India :frown2:.
> I hope mixing all the non Fe traces in a single bottle should not be an issue i suppose.


That's fine. Its what we all do



n70me said:


> Does high phosphates has any relation to BGA(cyano)? Does an improper N(or NO3) ratio cause it? Some how i feel high po4 along with some other combination may be high organics/or low nitrates is causing BGA in my tank. Iam always cautious with PO4 keeping it at 1PPM. Iam surprised to see you going at 10PPM? Whats your N/No3 when P is 10PPM?


I really dont know what causes BGA. Ive seen it happen after disturbing the substrate a lot. Also when ferts are out of balance and the plants arent happy for some reason. But Ive never been able to pin it on a particular fert.

A lot of people say low NO3 causes it, and high NO3 will fix it. That's never been my experience. Doesnt mean it's not true, Ive just never seen it go down like that


----------



## burr740

Water changin'


----------



## Quagulator

burr740 said:


> I really dont know what causes BGA. Ive seen it happen after disturbing the substrate a lot. Also when ferts are out of balance and the plants arent happy for some reason. But Ive never been able to pin it on a particular fert.
> 
> A lot of people say low NO3 causes it, and high NO3 will fix it. That's never been my experience. Doesnt mean it's not true, Ive just never seen it go down like that


Too much organic waste rotting away, too much light + unhappy plants, low flow or poor flow direction (dead spots = good spot for it to develop and THEN spread) poor surface agitation/gas exchange. NO3 in my experience has nothing to do with it. 

The first time I got infected, NO3 was DARK red, 'beyond' a deep blood red with the API test. 160+ ppm NO3 ballpark guessing. This was after a 25% water change so... High NO3 does not stop it. Of course, this is all organically produced NO3 not dosed NO3, so a very dirty tank indeed. (minimum maintenance tank, no live stock / I wanted to see how far I could take it before issues came about.... well I certainly found me some issues!) 

The same tank (currently my low tech 90 gal) is getting it in the sand bed (now my second experience with it), but not anywhere else in the tank. NO3 is 20-40ppm throughout the week, flow is 'good', surface agitation is maxed out (skimmer plus both filters creating large ripples / pointed straight at surface) plants are happy, lots of light for the tank but.... no actual algae growth + BGA is in sand bed so... no or very little light is getting to it (ambient room light from the closest window would be the main source). I will admit there is too much organic waste, it's hard to get it all without sucking up my shrimp / disturbing plants. 

Moral of my story, anyone can get it. If something allows it to grow, it will grow. If we try to correct it, we can suppress its growth, but it will ALWAYS be there. Chemiclean will kill it, but it came back within a few months even though I "fixed" all the causes that I can control and literally restarted the entire tank. But BGA deep down in a sand bed pointed at a window? I'll have to get crafty "fixing" that issue. First Chemiclean, then more gravel vac's in that area and convincing the household to keep the darn blinds closed on that window.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Dont stop experimenting! :red_mouth
> 
> To play devil's advocate, if going from 8 ppm PO4 per week, up to 10 shows improvement. Then imo you're overdosing something else. The improvement is not because the plants need more P, but because the higher P is effectively "lowering the dose" of something else by out competing it for uptake by the plants. In other words taking its place.
> 
> Or maybe the plants DID need more P, but only because high levels of something else was overpowering it. As in an opposite scenario to the above. Either way it amounts to the same thing.
> 
> Might be time to break out the Mulder chart and look for likely suspects. Fe would be on top of my list, possibly some other micro(s). Your Ca isnt all that high.
> 
> Or you can just dose what works and not worry about it.  Balanced is balanced, whether its on the low side or the high.
> 
> I remember back in the day you used to get away with a lot more csmb than I ever could. So despite the many similarities between our tanks they still seem to function best at different levels of certain things
> 
> 
> That's fine. Its what we all do


Joe I agree 100% with above. 

Too bad the Mulder chart doesn’t have an algorithm. You know, type in one element, then it calculates the rest. But then I guess we are back to ……………..ratios?

It does bring up some interesting topics for discussion. As you know, my feeling is that high fert levels do not in and of themselves cause algae. My tank is very rich, yet I have few issues with it (not none, but relatively few!). And when I do, it’s usually due to something else, not ferts (future post in my journal).

Now if someone claims that if they raise PO4 it induces algae, does it mean they are wrong? No. Could easily be “out of balance” and causing unhappy plants, hence algae. 

So how does one get in “balance”? Well, to me that’s the trickiest part of the hobby. We can all control light, CO2, and maintenance. You need to get those right to have any chance at all. But getting ferts right takes more effort. 

I remember when I first got started, I spent hours reading your 75G journal. You would talk about making small changes in dosing, and quickly noticed changes in the tank. Honestly at first I thought you were full of hooey. 

It took a LONG time to understand what you were talking about. In order to fine tune ferts, you need to be able to “read” the plants. They provide subtle clues, but you have to be listening and paying close attention. That’s where I think you are a step ahead of everyone here. 

Then you need to be willing to experiment and find the best combinations. Believe me, I didn’t set out to dose the way that I do. It’s just evolved that way over time. 

I’ve become better at reading plants over the years, but I still have a lot of room for improvement. The reality is you are better at it, and you just flat out grow better looking plants. 

Now does that mean anyone can just go and copy every single thing you do and see the same results? I don’t think so. Too many variables and a difference “balance” in every tank. 

Now as to my levels, believe me I have thought about your comments above quite a bit. I’ve been dosing daily .15 Fe for almost a year now. What if I lowered micros and everything else by a similar percentage? 

Who knows, but I am guessing if done gradually I could get by with much less of everything. Might have to give that a try soon.


----------



## Leaky Filter

Well, thanks to you and Greggz, I added a third T5HO to my existing fixture over a 36 bowfront. I'll order some micros this week and as they say in the south, 'Let 'er rip, tater chip'!


----------



## ChrisX

Quagulator said:


> Too much organic waste rotting away, too much light + unhappy plants, low flow or poor flow direction (dead spots = good spot for it to develop and THEN spread) poor surface agitation/gas exchange. NO3 in my experience has nothing to do with it.
> 
> The first time I got infected, NO3 was DARK red, 'beyond' a deep blood red with the API test. 160+ ppm NO3 ballpark guessing. This was after a 25% water change so... High NO3 does not stop it. Of course, this is all organically produced NO3 not dosed NO3, so a very dirty tank indeed. (minimum maintenance tank, no live stock / I wanted to see how far I could take it before issues came about.... well I certainly found me some issues!)
> 
> The same tank (currently my low tech 90 gal) is getting it in the sand bed (now my second experience with it), but not anywhere else in the tank. NO3 is 20-40ppm throughout the week, flow is 'good', surface agitation is maxed out (skimmer plus both filters creating large ripples / pointed straight at surface) plants are happy, lots of light for the tank but.... no actual algae growth + BGA is in sand bed so... no or very little light is getting to it (ambient room light from the closest window would be the main source). I will admit there is too much organic waste, it's hard to get it all without sucking up my shrimp / disturbing plants.
> 
> Moral of my story, anyone can get it. If something allows it to grow, it will grow. If we try to correct it, we can suppress its growth, but it will ALWAYS be there. Chemiclean will kill it, but it came back within a few months even though I "fixed" all the causes that I can control and literally restarted the entire tank. But BGA deep down in a sand bed pointed at a window? I'll have to get crafty "fixing" that issue. First Chemiclean, then more gravel vac's in that area and convincing the household to keep the darn blinds closed on that window.


Regarding organic wastes, my opinion (and I know this is radical) is that the amount of waste that you remove from vacing the tank is tiny compared to the amount of organic waste that lives in the canister filter! (assuming there is good flow and water movement)

Its more important to be vigilant about filter maintenance than it is to vaccuum the substrate every water change.


----------



## Immortal1

Greggz said:


> I remember when I first got started, I spent hours reading your 75G journal. You would talk about making small changes in dosing, and quickly noticed changes in the tank. Honestly at first I thought you were full of hooey.



I still think you guys are full of hooey! 
But, then again I have no choice but to admit whose tanks look better - mine or yours :wink2:


----------



## Greggz

ChrisX said:


> Regarding organic wastes, my opinion (and I know this is radical) is that the amount of waste that you remove from vacing the tank is tiny compared to the amount of organic waste that lives in the canister filter! (assuming there is good flow and water movement)
> 
> Its more important to be vigilant about filter maintenance than it is to vaccuum the substrate every water change.


Your tank must be different than mine.

My weekly vac removes a good deal of detritus. I can't imagine leaving that all in my tank.

And I had the same thought as you for awhile. Had read where planted tanks don't need to be vacuumed. Then when I started doing it weekly, noticed a huge improvement in everything. Healthier plants and less algae. Easiest thing I added to weekly maintenance with the biggest impact.

But I do agree with filter maintenance. More is better. Also makes a big difference.


----------



## ChrisX

Greggz said:


> Your tank must be different than mine.
> 
> My weekly vac removes a good deal of detritus. I can't imagine leaving that all in my tank.
> 
> And I had the same thought as you for awhile. Had read where planted tanks don't need to be vacuumed. Then when I started doing it weekly, noticed a huge improvement in everything. Healthier plants and less algae. Easiest thing I added to weekly maintenance with the biggest impact.
> 
> But I do agree with filter maintenance. More is better. Also makes a big difference.


You may be right, but here is a thought experiment...

When you vac the tank bottom into a bucket.. you can see the detritus.

That is just a fraction of the waste I see when I rinse and dump my filters after a few weeks.

Do you really think the waste on the substrate contributes a large % organics in the tank? 

Honestly, I don't know for sure, I'm just going by what I see.


----------



## n70me

ChrisX said:


> You may be right, but here is a thought experiment...
> 
> When you vac the tank bottom into a bucket.. you can see the detritus.
> 
> That is just a fraction of the waste I see when I rinse and dump my filters after a few weeks.
> 
> Do you really think the waste on the substrate contributes a large % organics in the tank?
> 
> Honestly, I don't know for sure, I'm just going by what I see.


+1, i feel the same.


----------



## n70me

Hi Burr,

Iam noticing new weird things on my acemella repens, i switched to my new seachem trace this week. I little overdosed it considering it to be non chelated , iam in assumption that non chelated traces wont cause any toxicity?Iam i wrong? 

I am seeing two issues #1 marked red is twisted downward and is yellow with an hole in it,but this leaf was in this shape even before i started seachem trace. But slowly transformed to yellow with a hole in it. Is this an iron deficiency?

#2. Iam seeing this kind of mal formation of leaf after starting the seachem trace. see the arrow mark at #2 in red. Is this a sign of toxicity ?

overall, does non chelated traces induce toxicity? I thought toxicity is only due to chealted traces like in csm+b.

Thanks,


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> Iam noticing new weird things on my acemella repens, i switched to my new seachem trace this week. I little overdosed it considering it to be non chelated , iam in assumption that non chelated traces wont cause any toxicity?Iam i wrong?
> 
> I am seeing two issues #1 marked red is twisted downward and is yellow with an hole in it,but this leaf was in this shape even before i started seachem trace. But slowly transformed to yellow with a hole in it. Is this an iron deficiency?
> 
> #2. Iam seeing this kind of mal formation of leaf after starting the seachem trace. see the arrow mark at #2 in red. Is this a sign of toxicity ?
> 
> overall, does non chelated traces induce toxicity? I thought toxicity is only due to chealted traces like in csm+b.
> 
> Thanks,


Uchelated micros are more rapidly absorbed than chelated ones, but they dont stick around in the water as long. And because they operate differently, different levels are used.

Both can be toxic if overdosed. What constitutes "overdosing" depends on a lot of things. But one form isnt more or less toxic than the other one.

Most people seeing "toxicity" symptoms using csmb (which may not even be actual toxicity) is related to PH levels too high for the edta Fe, and/or csmb's poor balance in general, and/or the fact that csmb is made to be used in large quantities for agriculture and hydroponics. It is not designed to dose aquariums using fractions of a tsp.

As for your current issues, a lot of people have success with Seachem Trace, even high tech folks.

But, it is very high in some things, like Zn, and very low in others, like Mn.

I really have no idea why it might not be working in your case. Might need more or less of it. Or the plants may need time to adjust to the change. I would start just following the directions, and keep Fe at no more than 1 ppm/week, or less. Probably best to keep PO4 at or below EI levesl too.

Your Acmella is generally unhappy but I have no idea what those symptoms are trying to say exactly.


----------



## n70me

Thanks Burr. Will use seachem trace for some more time and see how it goes. My phosphate dosing is currently 1PPM *3x.


----------



## ventus0907

Hi @burr740,

Sorry in advance on posting it here not intending to hijack your thread.
But I've been reading your journal for almost a week and all I can say is wow! @slipfinger is the one that brought me here and both of your dutch tanks are amazing.
He showed me where I can but a t5 bulb with different color. So I ordered one 420nm /actinic blue and one red 620nm. Will be using those bulbs on my Sunblaster fixture plus the sunblaster LED version with 6400k temp.
In your opinion what's the best way to arrange them?
What I had in mind is
F-B
6400k
620nm
420nm

or should I sandwich the 6400k and red in front blue in the back?

TIA!


----------



## burr740

ventus0907 said:


> Hi @*burr740*,
> 
> Sorry in advance on posting it here not intending to hijack your thread.
> But I've been reading your journal for almost a week and all I can say is wow! @*slipfinger* is the one that brought me here and both of your dutch tanks are amazing.
> He showed me where I can but a t5 bulb with different color. So I ordered one 420nm /actinic blue and one red 620nm. Will be using those bulbs on my Sunblaster fixture plus the sunblaster LED version with 6400k temp.
> In your opinion what's the best way to arrange them?
> What I had in mind is
> F-B
> 6400k
> 620nm
> 420nm
> 
> or should I sandwich the 6400k and red in front blue in the back?
> 
> TIA!


Thanks! Feel free to post anything here

Al that matters with your three bulbs is whatever order looks best to you, or to the camera.

Generally speaking having warm/reds in front and blues in back helps create a depth effect. But sometimes if you have a really warm combo, or a harsh yellow like 3000K, put a strong blue in front helps lessen the impact.

It does make a big difference which color the eye (or camera) is looking through first.

Its not gonna matter to the plants, just go with the order you like best


----------



## ventus0907

burr740 said:


> Thanks! Feel free to post anything here
> 
> Al that matters with your three bulbs is whatever order looks best to you, or to the camera.
> 
> Generally speaking having warm/reds in front and blues in back helps create a depth effect. But sometimes if you have a really warm combo, or a harsh yellow like 3000K, put a strong blue in front helps lessen the impact.
> 
> It does make a big difference which color the eye (or camera) is looking through first.
> 
> Its not gonna matter to the plants, just go with the order you like best


Yay! Right on time. I just received a notification that my bulbs arrived. I'm excited to play around with it when I get home after work.
Would the spread matter if the Full spectrum is in front? or that depends on the reflector? That's one of the reason why I thought the 6400k is best in the middle so the spread is even on that light for the entire tank.

And I have it right now hanging 8" above the tank, with about 2-3" of subtrate. Too high? too low? what do you think?


----------



## burr740

Have a lot to update pretty soon. In the meantime... this farm 75 is past due a good trim












ventus0907 said:


> Yay! Right on time. I just received a notification that my bulbs arrived. I'm excited to play around with it when I get home after work.
> Would the spread matter if the Full spectrum is in front? or that depends on the reflector? That's one of the reason why I thought the 6400k is best in the middle so the spread is even on that light for the entire tank.
> 
> And I have it right now hanging 8" above the tank, with about 2-3" of subtrate. Too high? too low? what do you think?


Both the spread and how high you need to hang it depend on the reflectors. One bulb isnt going to have more or less spread than another one


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Have a lot to update pretty soon. In the meantime... this farm 75 is past due a good trim


what type of fish you got in there Joe? been looking for something with orange/yellow for my tank


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> what type of fish you got in there Joe? been looking for something with orange/yellow for my tank


That's a female Platy. She's by herself except for a few pristella tetras. Need to get her a mate to breed with


----------



## ventus0907

burr740 said:


> Have a lot to update pretty soon. In the meantime... this farm 75 is past due a good trim
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ventus0907 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yay! Right on time. I just received a notification that my bulbs arrived. I'm excited to play around with it when I get home after work.
> Would the spread matter if the Full spectrum is in front? or that depends on the reflector? That's one of the reason why I thought the 6400k is best in the middle so the spread is even on that light for the entire tank.
> 
> And I have it right now hanging 8" above the tank, with about 2-3" of subtrate. Too high? too low? what do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> Both the spread and how high you need to hang it depend on the reflectors. One bulb isnt going to have more or less spread than another one
Click to expand...

Ok thank you. I couldn't find the right page but I know you posted what lights you have on your 75 since your 120 had a leak.

Edit: Found the page where you showed your light


----------



## burr740

Couple of weeks ago in the 50, Rotala macrandra caterpillar turned red as hell. (those are water change bubbles, not pearling) Also to the right you can see a couple Mac Srilanka bronze, which isnt supposed to be red either











Caterpillar is supposed to be yellow on top, more like this










So Im like Huh, that's strange. I wonder what nutrient swing caused that? But I hadnt changed anything. Well it just so happened that I was busy and not around much during the day or I would've noticed what REALLY happened.

CO2 had ran out!

There's an in tank bubble counter I use to keep an eye on things but sometimes I let it run dry. It'd been dry for a couple of weeks and I hadnt given it much thought.

I didnt notice the co2 was empty until a couple of days later doing a water change. My guess is it'd been out for 3-5 days, probably a day or two before the mac turned red.

Funny thing is nothing else in the tank really changed much. No algae explosion or anything like that. If I'd been around more Im sure I'd wouldve noticed a distinct lack of pearling. Anyway...

Here it is a week later. The focus is off but you can see both varieties have grown past the red areas and look normal again. 










Had to be a stress response right? I guess low NO3 isnt the only thing that can turn a plant red


Here's a Persicaria sao paulo breaking the surface. :red_mouth


----------



## nodim

One of the appealing things of planted tanks as a hobby is the amount of stuff one learns along the way. Every time I think that I've knocked a couple things off the list, I look at this thread, and realize that the list is actually significantly larger than I thought. #humbling

Cause and effect - clearly the plants tell you what is wrong, but understanding and translating that into the cause is clearly a long learning endeavor. Well done.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Had to be a stress response right? I guess low NO3 isnt the only thing that can turn a plant red


Joe that is a very, very interesting one. 

Have never seen anything like that before. I'd try to duplicate it, but no way I am turning off my CO2 long enough to find out..........not sure what mayhem that might lead to!


----------



## CMcNam

Wonderful journal! I just read all 88 pages and I really appreciate what you've done for everyone who wants to learn...you brought the rest of us along on your journey. Some people just stop by to say hi, there's a couple antagonists, and a supporting cast of main characters. This is quite the novel! Totally worth reading.

You keep hammering the same advice, and I notice this from the experts in my other hobbies as well (high performance driving and firearms)...stick to the basics! Maintenance! Get your [STRIKE]hands dirty[/STRIKE] sleeves wet! There's really no magic formula, no amount of expensive parts are going to make up for not mastering the basics first. I think I stuck my hands in my tank a dozen times reading this because someone would mention removing dead/dying leaves or how a stem could be angled _just so_ in order to help the visual appeal.

This was excellent burr, thank you for sharing your journey!


----------



## AgMa

Joe,
On 20H, your light fixture is hanged on or just sitts over the tank?
If hanged, could you please take a photo? I bought the same but I don't like the way sits on tank, it's too close from surface.
Merry Christmas to all!


----------



## burr740

Thanks @CMcNam !

@AgMa it sits on the tank using the factory legs

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!


----------



## GoldenFish937

Really nice!


----------



## Nigel95

What an amazing journal. Still need to read a lot currently at page 21. Got some questions maybe you can answer. I am using seachem flourish comprensive for dosing micros. (not so good experience with csmb) Mixing my own NPK and recently bought some commercial fe (easy life ferro) because my ph out of tap is 7+ and the easy life says it has 4 different chelates. I think this works better with my tap. 

Tank had lots of ups and downs. Algae was never a problem but plant health was.

I wonder if you have any advice on how much ML seachem flourish I should dose a week on lets say a 100L tank with around 90 par on the substrate. 1 ph drop. 9 hour lights. I do have aqua soil in my tanks but also plants like mc and h. Tripartita on hardscape. I was dosing 2x recommended dosage from seachem. Then Barr said an amount that is 4x higher than seachem 2x recommended dosing. Since the increase in micros I have holes in plants like mc. Tripartira and brown spots on pinnatifida. So my guess first micros was very low and since I increased a lot there is more demand for NPK.

I don't understand how people can run very low No3 less than 5 ppm. In another tank even with most plants in aqua soil plants are not super healthy. I started very low and when plantmass increased I went up to 6 and 10 ppm no3 a week. With 10 ppm no3 plants where doing much better. Then I tried to get more color on RR and Hra and went back to 6 ppm no3. Since the micros change this doesn't work well. So gonna try 15 ppm no3 for now and higher K 30 ppm instead of 20 and see if this works better. Also my water is pretty hard. 8 kh out of tap. This means my plants have a harder time to pick up nutrients right? So I guess I shouldn't aim for no3 levels below 6 ppm. 

Do you have any experience with no3 levels like 6 ppm vs 15. My main worry about higher no3 levels is also that I need to prune a lot more. For aquascaping contest tanks this isn't very handy. 

Trying to find the sweet spot for no3 levels for my tanks with mainly plants in aqua soil. And tanks with a mix between plants in soil and on hardscape. 

Seems easier to go for mostly green plants or plants that color easier up with higher no3 levels.

In short it's very hard to figure out what element to change. And most of time I tend to change multiple things. Like more ferts of X and increase flow by cleaning filter and hoses. Sometimes it does get better but it's hard to figure out what made the change.

Current dosing that I am going to try. 
N 15ppm 
P 4 ppm
K 30 ppm
Fe 0,28 from easy life and a lot from seachem not sure if that type works in my tank. 

I also use some osmocote balls in substrate. 





Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## Nigel95

burr740 said:


> The problem with csmb, I think, was the edta chelate used for Fe. Its not suitable for my PH level, and all kinds of weird stuff can happen when a chelate breaks loose for the original compound.


Hmm this is my issue I think. I am using flourish comp and dosing easy life ferro for my fe levels. And am assuming the fe from flourish is not working in my tank. How ever I didn't think about it causing any negative effects. Recently since I increased my flourish comp by 300% at once lol (I know stupid) I saw a lot of brown dust on my outflow. 

Do you know any commercial product that covers micros but no fe well? I don't trust my own mix since the csmb history. 

Again amazing journal. Just what I need!!! So much to learn. So much info that I had issues with in the past. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## natemcnutty

Nigel95 said:


> Hmm this is my issue I think. I am using flourish comp and dosing easy life ferro for my fe levels. And am assuming the fe from flourish is not working in my tank. How ever I didn't think about it causing any negative effects. Recently since I increased my flourish comp by 300% at once lol (I know stupid) I saw a lot of brown dust on my outflow.
> 
> Do you know any commercial product that covers micros but no fe well? I don't trust my own mix since the csmb history.
> 
> Again amazing journal. Just what I need!!! So much to learn. So much info that I had issues with in the past.
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Flourish comp uses gluconate to complex the Iron which is not as strong (or arguably as harmful) as chelating agents. This form is technically easier for plants to consume and less pH dependent, but it has a very short lifespan (less than a day) before unbinding. Depending on conditions, it could be less than your lighting period.

Flourish Trace is an option. Lots of things like MicroLife out there, but no experience with them. Still waiting for "microBurr" retail packaging


----------



## Nigel95

natemcnutty said:


> Flourish comp uses gluconate to complex the Iron which is not as strong (or arguably as harmful) as chelating agents. This form is technically easier for plants to consume and less pH dependent, but it has a very short lifespan (less than a day) before unbinding. Depending on conditions, it could be less than your lighting period.
> 
> Flourish Trace is an option. Lots of things like MicroLife out there, but no experience with them. Still waiting for "microBurr" retail packaging


As far as I know flourish comp contains EDTA type of Fe. And seachem iron has gluconate. Maybe this has changed over the years not sure? I do not use the seachem iron just flourish comp.

Some other gurus don't seem to be a huge fan of seachem trace. 

Haha 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## natemcnutty

Nigel95 said:


> As far as I know flourish comp contains EDTA type of Fe. And seachem iron has gluconate. Maybe this has changed over the years not sure? I do not use the seachem iron just flourish comp.
> 
> Some other gurus don't seem to be a huge fan of seachem trace.
> 
> Haha
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


I cheated (and nowhere near guru status yet) 
https://www.seachem.com/flourish.php

Ingredients list ferrous gluconate

There's this really awesome thread you just have to read if you like this stuff:
https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/gluconate.html

Basically, Seachem's research director argues about why they chose gluconate. I understand about 10% of it, but it's still fascinating.

The real reason I posted was to get the "microBurr" name started. I figure royalties should afford me a first bag free or something  Come on Joe!


----------



## Nigel95

natemcnutty said:


> There's this really awesome thread you just have to read if you like this stuff:
> https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/gluconate.html
> 
> Basically, Seachem's research director argues about why they chose gluconate. I understand about 10% of it, but it's still fascinating.


Cool read thanks man. 

I guess if flourish comp contains gluconate I should not run into any problems combined with my other fe with 4 chelates. Maybe reduce the micros slightly and increase N and K. And let's see. 

I also made a mistake by confusing kh2po4 and k2hpo4. So my po4 levels were slightly higher than expected and I have N and P combined in a bottle. So I wanted more N which means more P also. Made a new mix now back to 4 ppm. I think before it was like 7ppm for a short time (P). 

Maybe the higher po4 levels were also causing issues reacting with the fe. Who knows? 

Sorry for spamming your thread with my issues Joe. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## slipfinger

Nigel95 said:


> I am using seachem flourish comprensive for dosing micros.


This right here could be one of your issues........ 

Why are you using Flourish Comp as a micro source? Why not just use their Trace mix? There are a lot of using mixing our own non chelated micros based off Flourish Traces percentages. 

As for Fe just pick a chelate that works best with your pH level, they all work best in a certain range.


----------



## AgMa

Can't understand how your tank is 90par at sub.
I have the same light, same bulbs and I have 130par max in front of the tank.
Could you please post your 20H dimensions?
Mine is 22x14x16 inches.


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## burr740

@Nigel95 Flourish trace has all the micros with no Fe, just follow the directions. And feel free to spam away, no worries 



AgMa said:


> Can't understand how your tank is 90par at sub.
> I have the same light, same bulbs and I have 130par max in front of the tank.
> Could you please post your 20H dimensions?
> Mine is 22x14x16 inches.


Its 24x12x16 inches

Does your light have one reflector for all four bulbs? That sounds like a lot of PAR, especially if we have the same bulbs

Could be your PAR meter is better than mine. PAR meters begin to struggle with extreme red and blue spectrums. A 660 red will be giving the plants a lot more than what the meter reads.

My par meter is a converted lux meter with a different sensor and calibrated to read PAR. Its probably ball park at best, esp when it comes to extreme sides of the spectrum. 

But all par meters fall short in that regard so Im not sure how much difference a better meter would actually make.

I just measured it again, last time the bulbs were only a day or two old, thought they may not've been burned in yet. Yep, mid 90s

Bulbs are front to back: 3000K, 420 actinic, powerveg 633, Giesemann flora


----------



## Uncle_R

natemcnutty said:


> Flourish comp uses gluconate to complex the Iron which is not as strong (or arguably as harmful) as chelating agents. This form is technically easier for plants to consume and less pH dependent, but it has a very short lifespan (less than a day) before unbinding. Depending on conditions, it could be less than your lighting period.
> 
> Flourish Trace is an option. Lots of things like MicroLife out there, but no experience with them. Still waiting for "microBurr" retail packaging [emoji14]




“microBurr”
I like “Burr’s miracle micro mix”. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## natemcnutty

Uncle_R said:


> “microBurr”
> I like “Burr’s miracle micro mix”.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hmm, BM³ [emoji14]


----------



## AgMa

burr740 said:


> Its 24x12x16 inches
> 
> Does your light have one reflector for all four bulbs? That sounds like a lot of PAR, especially if we have the same bulbs
> 
> Could be your PAR meter is better than mine. PAR meters begin to struggle with extreme red and blue spectrums. A 660 red will be giving the plants a lot more than what the meter reads.
> 
> My par meter is a converted lux meter with a different sensor and calibrated to read PAR. Its probably ball park at best, esp when it comes to extreme sides of the spectrum.
> 
> But all par meters fall short in that regard so Im not sure how much difference a better meter would actually make.
> 
> I just measured it again, last time the bulbs were only a day or two old, thought they may not've been burned in yet. Yep, mid 90s
> 
> Bulbs are front to back: 3000K, 420 actinic, powerveg 633, Giesemann flora


Yes it has one reflector for all four bulbs. It's exactly the same as yours.
My par meter is an apogee sq-120 par sensor connected to a multimeter.
Bulbs are front to back:
3000k, blue actinic, flora, flora.
The third flora is there because I'm still waiting for osram red. I don't think that this flora one makes such a huge difference in readings, it's not powerful (sylvania grolux).
I lifted the light 6" above tank, just by bending it's legs. I will post a photo tomorrow to see.
Now it's 90par at front and 50par at center. Don't know why it's too low at center, maybe because there are the flora tubes over there?
*Edit:*
Ok here are the photos:


----------



## burr740

AgMa said:


> Yes it has one reflector for all four bulbs. It's exactly the same as yours.
> My par meter is an apogee sq-120 par sensor connected to a multimeter.
> Bulbs are front to back:
> 3000k, blue actinic, flora, flora.
> The third flora is there because I'm still waiting for osram red. I don't think that this flora one makes such a huge difference in readings, it's not powerful (sylvania grolux).
> I lifted the light 6" above tank, just by bending it's legs. I will post a photo tomorrow to see.
> Now it's 90par at front and 50par at center. Don't know why it's too low at center, maybe because there are the flora tubes over there?
> *Edit:*
> Ok here are the photos:
> ]


OK I was wondering how you raised the light by "bending the legs" LOL. Great idea btw

Your light is what I have on the 20Ls, except the two bulb versions. The four bulb Odyssea on the 20H has plastic legs, it sits about 5" above the tank


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## burr740

Happy New Year Guys and Gals!

50 gal un-manicured










Got some things cookin in the Dutch. Took out the moss sides about a month ago. Think Im going without those this time. Just have to cover any bare spots with plants.

Then I decided to try an all Buce background. The goal obviously (and biggest challenge) is to not have the mesh showing. Gonna have to cut off the 3/4" lip all around because it catches too much light. Its uh...work in progress










Ignore the plants. Everything is a chopped up mess atm. Have somewhat of a plan and will be changing a lot over the next few weeks. Gonna do a big street of Lobelia somewhere. Cant decide whether to go with the Hadi Pearl sword as a focal point or keep the Lagenandras. Probably put the sword over there. That thing is pretty freakin sweet, plus it'll be something different than last year


----------



## natemcnutty

Joe, when you do a big trim or rescape like this, do you tend to pull all plants out, clean up the substrate, then replant, or do you just kind of move everything around and let the filter clean up?

I ask because I have difficulties keeping everything separated regardless of how I do it, and you keep a lot of varieties in your tank as well


----------



## Greggz

Good to see some pics Joe, and Happy New Year to you as well.

Why did you remove the moss walls? Too much to keep up with?

And it looks like completely covering that mesh will take a LOT of buce. Looks like about two boatloads to me!:grin2:

But if anyone can pull it off, I am sure it is you.

Is that Hyptis in the back left corner left to grow tall? If so looks like the tops get very nice color close to the light. I am keeping mine really short as foreground for now. Might have to let a couple grow out to see what it looks like. 

And is that AR Var. in the 50? Haven't heard you talk about that one in a while, and wonder how it is doing?

Anything new on the dosing front??


----------



## Nigel95

Any idea how fast brownie ghost grows in. your tank? Like how many leaves per month per rhizome? 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


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## burr740

natemcnutty said:


> Joe, when you do a big trim or rescape like this, do you tend to pull all plants out, clean up the substrate, then replant, or do you just kind of move everything around and let the filter clean up?
> 
> I ask because I have difficulties keeping everything separated regardless of how I do it, and you keep a lot of varieties in your tank as well


Usually Im only doing 3-4 groups at a time, whatever needs it. But its the same routine doing more.

For stems that need the tops replanted and the bottoms moved or tossed: Pinch off all the good tops and put them aside. Gently pull all the stumps. Level the substrate back out. Skim the surface with a siphon hose to get any collected mulm. Sometimes there's a lot and sometimes hardly none. Then an immediate large water change 

Im not a fan of deep vacuuming. Seems to throw the system off somehow. Ive gotten stem melt at the bottom a few times after doing it. So idk, think that bottom half where the anaerobic stuff lives takes a while to establish and best left alone. But I'll go down an inch or so sometimes.

As for keeping things separated, you really have to exaggerate the space you begin with. It's like scaping a Dutch tank. If you want it to look like there's an inch of space between something, better leave 2 or 3. Same with height contrasts



Greggz said:


> Good to see some pics Joe, and Happy New Year to you as well.
> 
> Why did you remove the moss walls? Too much to keep up with?
> 
> And it looks like completely covering that mesh will take a LOT of buce. Looks like about two boatloads to me!:grin2:
> 
> But if anyone can pull it off, I am sure it is you.
> 
> Is that Hyptis in the back left corner left to grow tall? If so looks like the tops get very nice color close to the light. I am keeping mine really short as foreground for now. Might have to let a couple grow out to see what it looks like.
> 
> And is that AR Var. in the 50? Haven't heard you talk about that one in a while, and wonder how it is doing?
> 
> Anything new on the dosing front??


The Moss walls: It was either the moss or the buces. This Xmas grows so fast it kinda takes over through the Buces. The Buces are OK just stuck on there for looks for a couple of weeks but it gets messy long term.If the buces dont work out I'll put the moss back.

Yeah its going to take a lot of buces, but there's a lot more here than it looks like. Some of those clumps down low can be split into 5-6 plants. Then its just a matter of placement. They actually grow pretty fast under all that light.

Hyptis in back left, its about to come out. Gonna do a big row of L rugosa front to back right there. Hyptis looks best when viewed at least partially from the top. Its best feature is the purple top so its not really a good side profile plant. These were stuck back there for lack of room anywhere else mainly.

AR mini variegated has been stuck for the past year. Horribly twisted new growth just doing enough to stay alive. Over the last 5-6 weeks it's finally started growing again. Still a lot of older twisted growth here, need to pull it all up and replant the good stuff. Have a few in the 75 doing the same thing, aquasoil is no saving grace 










Reducing micros is what did it. Currently in the .15-.2 range 3x per week. Remember a couple of years ago when micros were extremely low, it used to grow pretty well. The regular version doesnt seem to mind. They've stayed flat and big the whole time dosing higher levels. But not the variegated.

So after a year of higher and higher levels, Im working back down in the hopes of finding a sweeter spot for everything. Several species are really loving the lower levels. Acmella repens, for just one example that didnt seem to mind the higher levels, has doubled in size 

Macros are currently 25/5/25 per week.

Pantanals we talked about I think are going to be OK too. They just freaked in the beginning. I cut the mature tops off to let new ones come in from the stumps. So far they are doing fine



Nigel95 said:


> Any idea how fast brownie ghost grows in. your tank? Like how many leaves per month per rhizome?
> 
> Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


Im no Buce expert but pretty sure these arent Brownie Ghost. According to Dennis Brownie ghosts are naturally purple. These only look a little purple under the lights. They are actually dark olive green, and the leaves a little wider than BGs Ive seen.

They grow pretty fast, 3-4 leaves per month easy. The rhizomes expand pretty fast too


----------



## natemcnutty

Any chance they are buce hades? Mine is a dark green but throws purple leaves for a bit under good light. It's a little bigger variety, fairly common, and grows decently quick.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> AR mini variegated has been stuck for the past year. Horribly twisted new growth just doing enough to stay alive. Over the last 5-6 weeks it's finally started growing again. Still a lot of older twisted growth here, need to pull it all up and replant the good stuff. Have a few in the 75 doing the same thing, aquasoil is no saving grace
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reducing micros is what did it. Currently in the .15-.2 range 3x per week. Remember a couple of years ago when micros were extremely low, it used to grow pretty well. The regular version doesnt seem to mind. They've stayed flat and big the whole time dosing higher levels. But not the variegated.
> 
> So after a year of higher and higher levels, Im working back down in the hopes of finding a sweeter spot for everything. Several species are really loving the lower levels. Acmella repens, for just one example that didnt seem to mind the higher levels, has doubled in size
> 
> Macros are currently 25/5/25 per week.


Thanks Joe interesting stuff. FWIW, that AR Var. looks pretty darn good to me. Funny about the aquasoil, getting the impression it isn't the magic elixir some say it is. You need to update that story sometime too.

I've also seen a positive response lowering micros. However, I went from .15 Fe daily to .1125, so still more than you, and lowered macros too. Going to keep it here for probably another few weeks at least, then try dialing it back just slightly more. You just never how things react from tank to tank or what levels will be best.

And interesting the size change of the Acmella. One thing I have been finding is that when you change a parameter like that, there can be winners and losers. Seems like that sweet spot is when you can keep them ALL pretty happy, if that makes sense.



burr740 said:


> Pantanals we talked about I think are going to be OK too. They just freaked in the beginning. I cut the mature tops off to let new ones come in from the stumps. So far they are doing fine


Yeah mine freaked out too. I bumped up N just a bit, and they seemed to perk back up. Now I wonder if they would have anyway just given more time? Funny thing is the ones that stunted popped out 3 or 4 new tops, and those are growing into new stems now. New way to propagate!:wink2:


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

lemme know if you ever get bored of those buces lmao

I think I might end up lowering my micros (1.0 ~1.14 Fe up take but dosing 1.5) too but maybe in a few weeks, I'm bumping my K up from 22.5 ppm weekly to 26.5. 

Previously you were at 30/5/30 for macros right?


----------



## burr740

natemcnutty said:


> Any chance they are buce hades? Mine is a dark green but throws purple leaves for a bit under good light. It's a little bigger variety, fairly common, and grows decently quick.


Think you may be right. I have 3 different varieties and no idea what any of them are. One is a tiny green I think mini coin leaf or something like that. 

Ive been meaning to try to nail down what each one is. Doesnt help that these are all hobby names, not based on any sort of taxonomy. Some places are more consistent with names than others. 



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> lemme know if you ever get bored of those buces lmao
> 
> I think I might end up lowering my micros (1.0 ~1.14 Fe up take but dosing 1.5) too but maybe in a few weeks, I'm bumping my K up from 22.5 ppm weekly to 26.5.
> 
> Previously you were at 30/5/30 for macros right?


Well one thing to keep in mind is just because plants are drinking that much Fe (assuming thats whats shappening) doesnt necessarily mean its a good thing. Plants cant always shut the door when they have enough of something. (hence toxicity) Roots can do a better job of deciding what gets in than submerged leaves.

Idk if you were around for Marcels experiments, but one of the most interesting things to me was the tissue analysis done when it was all over, on both the good plants and the sucky ones.

The interesting thing was, the sucky plants that stunted at higher dosing levels, had higher amounts of certain nutrients in their tissues than the plants that did best. A lot higher, think 150-200%. Which is a clear sign that plants even in a poor state do not (or cannot) stop absorbing nutrients. Also blows the doors off current dogma that says plants only uptake what they need 

If I remember correctly the nutrients that were higher included P, Ca, Mn, Fe and Mo, possibly something else, Id have to go back and find it. So those appear to be nutrients that plants are unable to "shut the door" on. At least Rotalla wallichii cant. Something to think about....


Yes, previously at 30/5/30-something (always 5-7 ppm higher than NO3), but I'd also spent a couple months at 35/6-8/40-ish

Started seeing bad results from so much PO4. Mainly new growth symptoms, stunting in a few things and undersized new growth. This would seem to indicate that it was interfering with immobile nutrients like micros/Fe

So I dropped it down to 3 for a couple of weeks, which made a huge positive difference...initially. But after a couple of weeks as the levels evened out, a different set of old growth symptoms appeared in some things, as you would expect with a straightforward deficiency. So I inched back up to 4 for a couple of weeks, and then to 5, which seems to be a pretty sweet spot going on a month now

Most recently Ive dropped K down closer to NO3 in the hopes of improving Ca efficiency, and possibly a few other things it has an antagonistic relationship with. (Mulder's Chart) 5-7 ppm lower per week doesnt sound like much, but it is when you factor accumulation. Could be a water column difference of 10-14 ppm. Too soon to tell if its gonna make any difference. 

I would expect a minor difference if anything really, but no point larding it on if it isnt necessary. Too many possible interactions involved


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Well one thing to keep in mind is just because plants are drinking that much Fe (assuming thats whats shappening) doesnt necessarily mean its a good thing. Plants cant always shut the door when they have enough of something. (hence toxicity) Roots can do a better job of deciding what gets in than submerged leaves.


oh, might explain why some people are so adamant about staying with a certain ratios or a range of ratios.

tbh, I also have my doubts about my plants fully taking up the 1~1.14 ppm Fe weekly. I wouldnt be surprised if some of it was taken up by algae or bacteria, not sure how I would go about testing that though.



> Idk if you were around for Marcels experiments, but one of the most interesting things to me was the tissue analysis done when it was all over, on both the good plants and the sucky ones.
> 
> The interesting thing was, the sucky plants that stunted at higher dosing levels, had higher amounts of certain nutrients in their tissues than the plants that did best. A lot higher, think 150-200%. Which is a clear sign that plants even in a poor state do not (or cannot) stop absorbing nutrients. Also blows the doors off current dogma that says plants only uptake what they need
> 
> If I remember correctly the nutrients that were higher included P, Ca, Mn, Fe and Mo, possibly something else, Id have to go back and find it. So those appear to be nutrients that plants are unable to "shut the door" on. At least Rotalla wallichii cant. Something to think about....
> 
> 
> Yes, previously at 30/5/30-something (always 5-7 ppm higher than NO3), but I'd also spent a couple months at 35/6-8/40-ish
> 
> Started seeing bad results from so much PO4. Mainly new growth symptoms, stunting in a few things and undersized new growth. This would seem to indicate that it was interfering with immobile nutrients like micros/Fe
> 
> So I dropped it down to 3 for a couple of weeks, which made a huge positive difference...initially. But after a couple of weeks as the levels evened out, a different set of old growth symptoms appeared in some things, as you would expect with a straightforward deficiency. So I inched back up to 4 for a couple of weeks, and then to 5, which seems to be a pretty sweet spot going on a month now
> 
> Most recently Ive dropped K down closer to NO3 in the hopes of improving Ca efficiency, and possibly a few other things it has an antagonistic relationship with. (Mulder's Chart) 5-7 ppm lower per week doesnt sound like much, but it is when you factor accumulation. Could be a water column difference of 10-14 ppm. Too soon to tell if its gonna make any difference.
> 
> I would expect a minor difference if anything really, but no point larding it on if it isnt necessary. Too many possible interactions involved


Nah I wasn't around for Marcel's experiments.

This is his website right? https://golias.net/akvaristika/ found the website a couple of months back but didnt go through everything yet except something about Ludwigia Sp Red maxing out growth near 30+ ppm NO3?

Have you tweaked with your B levels for further Ca efficiency?


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> tbh, I also have my doubts about my plants fully taking up the 1~1.14 ppm Fe weekly. I wouldnt be surprised if some of it was taken up by algae or bacteria, not sure how I would go about testing that though.


It might be precipitating out and just winding up as dust in the filter? Idk either, but Im pretty sure the plants themselves are not using 1 ppm per week. At least not willingly!




SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Nah I wasn't around for Marcel's experiments.
> 
> This is his website right? https://golias.net/akvaristika/ found the website a couple of months back but didnt go through everything yet except something about Ludwigia Sp Red maxing out growth near 30+ ppm NO3?


Yeah that's his site. Those wallichii experiments are there somewhere. Its a lot of interesting stuff but unfortunately doesnt translate well to a fully functioning aquarium. Specifically the ratio he chose to go with. It's based on Marshner's book which found in terrestrial plants, that nutrients should be dosed at the same ratio as whats inside their tissues.

The book makes a compelling case but everyone I know who tried the same ratios failed. I tried it. Vin matched it exactly with RO water, every single thing down to Cl, S, etc. It failed horribly.

But this is the approximate ratio that was used in the wallichii experiments. Using five or six separate tanks, each one getting a higher level. Usually the middle one did best and the last couple with higher and higher levels did progressively worse.

The problem is taking that middle tank parameters, where the plants did best, and proclaiming to the world those are ideal parameters for Rotalas everywhere. And anyone who doses more NO3 that that is foolish.

Well there are an incredible number of flaws in that logic. The biggest one is assuming that's the ideal nutrient ratio to begin with. Because unless it is (it aint) you cannot extrapolate the ideal level for any one thing, such as NO3. On the contrary, all you can truly say is that's what happened in this particular experiment, with 9 stems of wallichii in one particular tank. 

I'll stop right here not to sound too critical. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the time and effort he put into all that, the attention to detail and precision of everything. And his willingness to publish it in detail. He's a very smart guy and I learned a lot just following a long.

I only said all that so folks reading here, after I mentioned what he proved one time, wouldnt get the wrong idea and take every word over there as gospel. But there's a lot of good food for thought if you have the time... and a browser that translates. 



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Have you tweaked with your B levels for further Ca efficiency?


Over the past year and a half I'd gone up and up and up with B and Zn, until negative effects showed up. Then back down again into the ranges that produced the best results. This was not really done with regards to Ca, other than keeping it in mind along with other possible interferences. 

Of course thats a big thing to keep in mind because everything affects everything to some degree. But you just cant nail down exact reasons for every little thing that happens. When B and Zn were too high, induced Ca deficiency could very well be why a few things went south. It could also be 100 other reasons

Im currently focused on Ca because it seems like a few species just never get enough of that one thing specifically. Yet the tap has 35-40 which, strictly speaking should be plenty.

And lets not overthink it. Im talking about three or four stubborn plants out of 70 something that are doing fine. Nailing it down to Ca is pure speculation on my part, just based on personal observations compared to everything else that's been ruled out.


----------



## Beazley

First post just to thank you for all the info in this thread and to say amazing tanks and plants. Really incredible stuff here.


----------



## yusufsarac

I'm on the 27'st page on this journey and it is like the best movie I've ever seen  havent seen the end yet so do not give spoiler to me  there are tonssss of information here to process. I have some question tough;

1- you allways seem to cut top of the plants and replant them. From front to back they are going taller, do you have a planting pattern to get this good looking group shapes, and shapes seems to have somewhat triangular. Do you have any rules ? do you measure stems height ?

2- Do you have a final recipie for micros. If yes can you tell me how to prepare it as a solution. And by saying "tell" I mean telling like "Micro solution for dummies book" )

3- is there a rule in dutch style for neighboring plant groups ? I mean a plant group have narrowing triangular shape to the back, and the group next to them have narrowing triangular shape to the front. It seems like there is a pattern. Can you explain if there is ?


----------



## Quagulator

yusufsarac said:


> 2- Do you have a final recipie for micros. If yes can you tell me how to prepare it as a solution. And by saying "tell" I mean telling like "Micro solution for dummies book" )



I'll second this question, I've seen a few of the more active members here mentioning "Burr's version x . x" but no where can I find a list of these versions of your micro mix? I've been compelling some users levels and emulating them to some extent, but I still can't find "Burr's mix" that I keep seeing people mention.


----------



## chayos00

yusufsarac said:


> I'm on the 27'st page on this journey and it is like the best movie I've ever seen  havent seen the end yet so do not give spoiler to me  there are tonssss of information here to process. I have some question tough;
> 
> 1- you allways seem to cut top of the plants and replant them. From front to back they are going taller, do you have a planting pattern to get this good looking group shapes, and shapes seems to have somewhat triangular. Do you have any rules ? do you measure stems height ?
> 
> 2- Do you have a final recipie for micros. If yes can you tell me how to prepare it as a solution. And by saying "tell" I mean telling like "Micro solution for dummies book" )
> 
> 3- is there a rule in dutch style for neighboring plant groups ? I mean a plant group have narrowing triangular shape to the back, and the group next to them have narrowing triangular shape to the front. It seems like there is a pattern. Can you explain if there is ?


This is a discussion thread about Micro's https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/1221018-custom-micro-mix.html

However here's where @Greggz spells out how to "roll your own" micro's. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...ants-labeled-1-14-2019-a-29.html#post10937818


----------



## burr740

yusufsarac said:


> I'm on the 27'st page on this journey and it is like the best movie I've ever seen  havent seen the end yet so do not give spoiler to me  there are tonssss of information here to process. I have some question tough;
> 
> 1- you allways seem to cut top of the plants and replant them. From front to back they are going taller, do you have a planting pattern to get this good looking group shapes, and shapes seems to have somewhat triangular. Do you have any rules ? do you measure stems height ?
> 
> 2- Do you have a final recipie for micros. If yes can you tell me how to prepare it as a solution. And by saying "tell" I mean telling like "Micro solution for dummies book" )
> 
> 3- is there a rule in dutch style for neighboring plant groups ? I mean a plant group have narrowing triangular shape to the back, and the group next to them have narrowing triangular shape to the front. It seems like there is a pattern. Can you explain if there is ?


Haha! Well getcha popcorn handy, there's more sequels in this thread than Friday 13th and Elm Street combined! Just when you thought it was safe...

*1:* What I usually do when a group needs trimming is cut all the good tops off and discard the ratty bottom parts. Then separate the tops in piles of small, med and tall. Go from there.

Some plants do better mowed down leaving the stumps to come out. Just depends on the species, and what you're trying to accomplish with the group like if you need to make more or it needs to be thicker. Leaving the stumps will accomplish that.

Several pages back there's a few posts with pictures how I did a couple of groups.

*2:* I dont have a final recipe but we're in a pretty good range. See below

Here's the 'How To' post from the other thread



> Use distilled or RO water to make the stock solution.
> 
> *Step 1:* Fill the dosing container about 3/4 full (leaves room for the ferts)
> 
> *Step 2:* Add 10-15 ML vinegar per 500 ML. <or> Ascorbic acid at .5 gm per 500 ml. Swirl it around a little bit to mix
> 
> *Note: Citric acid will work too but idk how much to add because Ive never tried it. Strictly speaking as an acid, citric is slightly stronger than ascorbic. My guess would be to use about the same or a little less. That'd be close enough, it's not all that important to nail an exact PH
> 
> *Step 3:* Add all of the individual micro compounds to the solution. It doesnt matter what order
> 
> *Step 4:* Shake vigorously. Finish filling the dosing container all the way up using distilled or RO water. Shake again very well. Let stand overnight before using.


*3:* Neighboring groups should contrast in shape, color and heights. Im talking about contrast between species

There is no rule about what shape a group can be. You see a lot of triangle because triangles make it easier to fill a space than squares. Also its a good trick for creating the illusion of depth and scale. Wide in front and narrowing towards the back, for example.



Quagulator said:


> I'll second this question, I've seen a few of the more active members here mentioning "Burr's version x . x" but no where can I find a list of these versions of your micro mix? I've been compelling some users levels and emulating them to some extent, but I still can't find "Burr's mix" that I keep seeing people mention.


There's no exact "burr's recipe" ...not yet anyway 

Most people are either copying v13.15, which several people used for a while with good results, or going by the latest recipe I might've posted somewhere when asked about it

A good general range is .15 -.2 ppm Fe 3x per week. Some tanks are gonna like more, some less. Personally Ive been decreasing these last few months getting much better results dosing .2 3x per week than say .15 daily. I suspect .15 3x might even be better but havent reached that point yet.

Fe:Mn ratio started out always being 2:1, based on crop studies. But over the last year myself and a few others find it works better in the 3-4:1 range

Mo, Cu, and Ni levels havent really changed much. B and Zn have been taken all over the country and back again.

Here's both v13.15 and also the latest I've been using for a couple months now. Anywhere in this range should work well for most folks

v13.15
Fe - .15 ppm
Mn - .075 ppm (lower Mn to .05 or .06)
B - .03 ppm
Zn - .055 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .002 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

Personally I never tried this version dosing only 3x per week. A lot of us were dosing daily at the time. But a few people did, probably still are. 

I think Fe and Mn are probably enough 3x per week, but it's a little low on B and Zn for 3x... I _think_

What Im doing lately, 3x per week. 

Fe - .2 ppm
Mn - .06 ppm
B - .05 ppm
Zn - .07 ppm
Mo - .0015 ppm
Cu - .0024 ppm
Ni - .0005 ppm

So between those two should be a pretty good range for most folks

I'll probably try a .15 version next and see how that goes. Micros have sort of been on hold the past couple of months. Had to get PO4 back in line and now trying out lower K levels and higher Mg (along with Vin and seeing very good results so far) but that's another story....

Current weekly macros are 25 NO3, 5 PO4, and about 18 K, all from KNO3 and P, no extra. In another couple of weeks gonna work that down to 20/4 and see what happens

10 ppm Mg with water changes. There's about 4 in the tap and 40-ish Ca. Thats getting close to a 2:1 ratio with accumulation factored in for Mg


----------



## vijay_06

Thanks for posting your latest dosing level. This will be very helpful for many folks including me. Are you front loading the Macros or dosing through the week?

Also, do you see a need to front load Micros to some extent (say 50% of the week’s overall Micros dose), especially when the weekly water change volume is large (70-75%) and Macros are front loaded completely? 

I do this large water change every week and front load Macros (25-5-30). A large dose of Micros when the week starts followed by 2 smaller doses seems to have helped in my case. But, I am not really sure since that change also coincided with me turning down the tank temperature from like 83 degrees to 76 degrees (I was so stupid to not realize that I had a faulty thermometer all along ).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

vijay_06 said:


> Thanks for posting your latest dosing level. This will be very helpful for many folks including me. Are you front loading the Macros or dosing through the week?
> 
> Also, do you see a need to front load Micros to some extent (say 50% of the week’s overall Micros dose), especially when the weekly water change volume is large (70-75%) and Macros are front loaded completely?
> 
> I do this large water change every week and front load Macros (25-5-30). A large dose of Micros when the week starts followed by 2 smaller doses seems to have helped in my case. But, I am not really sure since that change also coincided with me turning down the tank temperature from like 83 degrees to 76 degrees (I was so stupid to not realize that I had a faulty thermometer all along ).


Im still front loading macros at 60% on wc day then two more 20% doses through the week. Cant really say it's any different than 3x equal doses. A few things initially seemed to get better when I first started doing it, about a year ago, but there were other changes going on at the time too. One of these days when no other changes are taking place Im going back to 3x just to see. I suspect it wont be any different but who knows

I dont think there's any benefit to front loading micros. N and P are the two nutrients that certain research has shown work better at a continuous level. Everything else plants can drink up one day and be fine for a while.

Yeah going from 83 to 76 degrees Im sure helped the plants.


----------



## Edward

burr740 said:


> Well one thing to keep in mind is just because plants are drinking that much Fe (assuming that’s what’s happening) doesn’t necessarily mean it’s a good thing. Plants can’t always shut the door when they have enough of something. (hence toxicity) Roots can do a better job of deciding what gets in than submerged leaves.
> 
> Idk if you were around for Marcels experiments, but one of the most interesting things to me was the tissue analysis done when it was all over, on both the good plants and the sucky ones.
> 
> The interesting thing was, the sucky plants that stunted at higher dosing levels, had higher amounts of certain nutrients in their tissues than the plants that did best. A lot higher, think 150-200%. Which is a clear sign that plants even in a poor state do not (or cannot) stop absorbing nutrients. Also blows the doors off current dogma that says plants only uptake what they need
> 
> If I remember correctly the nutrients that were higher included P, Ca, Mn, Fe and Mo, possibly something else, Id have to go back and find it. So those appear to be nutrients that plants are unable to "shut the door" on. At least Rotalla wallichii cant. Something to think about....


 Excellent post, thank you.


----------



## burr740

Staurogyne purple


----------



## OreoP

Joe, do you use purigen in your canisters?


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Joe, do you use purigen in your canisters?


Did for a couple of years in every single tank. Then about a year and a half ago I'd ran out of recharged bags and had to take it out of the main tank for a few days. Almost immediately plants exploded with pearling and happiness. So I took it all out and never looked back.

I know the official word from Seachem is its supposed to have "minimal effect" on nutrients. If you google the question you'll find a lot of forum discussion where there's always a small minority saying their plants did better without it, while the vast majority seem to dismiss the idea

So idk really, that's just what happened in mine


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Did for a couple of years in every single tank. Then about a year and a half ago I'd ran out of recharged bags and had to take it out of the main tank for a few days. Almost immediately plants exploded with pearling and happiness. So I took it all out and never looked back.
> 
> I know the official word from Seachem is its supposed to have "minimal effect" on nutrients. If you google the question you'll find a lot of forum discussion where there's always a small minority saying their plants did better without it, while the vast majority seem to dismiss the idea
> 
> So idk really, that's just what happened in mine


This one has me curious. I feel like most use Purigen for the water clarity and to pull organics out. For those who are really up on their tanks maintenance (gravel vac, water changes, filter cleanings, etc.) does the Purigen really do much of anything? I remember the BBA posts that Greggz had a few months back with the Purigen experiment, and if I remember correctly he is not running Purigen anymore either and having great results still.

If I can keep my positive maintenance habits up I may give this a shot over the next month or two. I think right now I have something like 6 packets in the two canisters, so if there is something to it interfering/ interacting with ferts, I would probably see some sort of difference. Then again, things are going okay right now... so we'll see!


----------



## Greggz

Grobbins48 said:


> I remember the BBA posts that Greggz had a few months back with the Purigen experiment, and if I remember correctly he is not running Purigen anymore either and having great results still.
> 
> If I can keep my positive maintenance habits up I may give this a shot over the next month or two


Yeah I really think cleaning your filters makes a much bigger difference than Purigen. 

But funny this topic came up. I have a bunch of Purigen, so on a whim I decided to put some in two filters this past week. Well, I don't know if it was the Purigen, but I had a few plants not as happy as usual, and even a little algae creep up on others.

Again, can't really pinpoint cause and effect, but needless to say it's back out and staying out.

PS. Joe the color and health of those plants above are outstanding!!


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> Did for a couple of years in every single tank. Then about a year and a half ago I'd ran out of recharged bags and had to take it out of the main tank for a few days. Almost immediately plants exploded with pearling and happiness. So I took it all out and never looked back.
> 
> I know the official word from Seachem is its supposed to have "minimal effect" on nutrients. If you google the question you'll find a lot of forum discussion where there's always a small minority saying their plants did better without it, while the vast majority seem to dismiss the idea
> 
> So idk really, that's just what happened in mine


Although I have not updated in a while, I have been playing around with loading micros up front - total disaster - unhappy plants and algae bloom. The only thing changed was the front loading of micros.

Subsequently, I started to only front loading macros and gradually reduced micros. Today I am at almost similar levels to yours. Last week, I was thinking if Purigen affected the lower dosage and removed the 2 x 100ml bags from the filters. And the same observation as yours - plants pearling like crazy and are visiually more healthy - go figure!!

Bump:


Greggz said:


> Yeah I really think cleaning your filters makes a much bigger difference than Purigen.



After my observation in the last couple of weeks and Joe's confirmation, I am of the opinion good housekeeping out weighs the benefits of Purigen


----------



## CMcNam

Would it be possible to stick a mature filter on an empty tank, measure the baseline without ferts, then add ferts and measure again daily for a week or so without Purigen? Reset the experiment and measure ferts daily again with Purigen added to the filter? I'm very curious about this now because I have Purigen in all three of my aquariums.


----------



## burr740

I was also running a lot more than the recommended amount. 100 ml bags in the 20 gals, two in the 50, three in the 75s and 500 ml in the 120...for whatever that's worth 



CMcNam said:


> Would it be possible to stick a mature filter on an empty tank, measure the baseline without ferts, then add ferts and measure again daily for a week or so without Purigen? Reset the experiment and measure ferts daily again with Purigen added to the filter? I'm very curious about this now because I have Purigen in all three of my aquariums.


Sure but you'd need lab grade testing equipment. Liquid drops wouldnt cut it. 

Im fairly certain its been demonstrated that it doesnt affect NO3. I always suspected it was pulling out a specific micro or two. It can affect certain chelates as well but Im not sure exactly how all that works.

But yeah with the capacity to accurately measure ALL nutrients this would be a great experiment!


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> 10 ppm Mg with water changes. There's about 4 in the tap and 40-ish Ca. Thats getting close to a 2:1 ratio with accumulation factored in for Mg



General consensus on Ca:Mg ratio is 4:1 to 3:1. I see you are at 2:1. However, apart from ratios, what is your opinion on the minimum ppm of Ca and Mg?


----------



## Quagulator

OreoP said:


> General consensus on Ca:Mg ratio is 4:1 to 3:1. I see you are at 2:1. However, apart from ratios, what is your opinion on the minimum ppm of Ca and Mg?


I'm in the 2:1 range and I personally would not go back to a 3 or 4 :1 ratio. 
35ppm Ca from CaSO4
15ppm Mg from MgSO4

dosed into 100% RO water prior to a water change.


----------



## burr740

@OreoP All my experience is using tap water which stays in the 35-45 ppm range. So Im really not sure


----------



## Greggz

Quagulator said:


> I'm in the 2:1 range and I personally would not go back to a 3 or 4 :1 ratio.
> 35ppm Ca from CaSO4
> 15ppm Mg from MgSO4
> 
> dosed into 100% RO water prior to a water change.


Interesting.

I am going in this direction shortly.

Glad to hear it is working well for you.

Out of curiosity, what is your N:K??


----------



## Quagulator

Greggz said:


> Interesting.
> 
> I am going in this direction shortly.
> 
> Glad to hear it is working well for you.
> 
> Out of curiosity, what is your N:K??


Currently I'm front loading 66% and mid week boosting the last 34%. 

32.5 - 8.5 - 45 for N-P-K weekly totals. I'm only on my third week of doing so, but so far I have yet to see any negative plant response.

Im 6-8 weeks in going with 15ppm Mg instead of 10ppm. Plants with poorly developing newer leaves such as L. super red mini instantly perked up, others such as rotala's are starting to come around again. Less "twisting" of new growth is the biggest change I saw to increased Mg. Despite Mg being mobile in the plants, something else could have been causing issues in the newer leaf development. BUT I was noticing interveinal chlorosis on many leaves of many species indicating a need for more Mg. 

I just did some reading, higher Ca and K+ will increase the need for Mg. So, higher K+ (like my tank) will require higher Mg concentration as Ca+ , Mg+ and K+ are all fighting for plant uptake.


----------



## aqua-botanicae

burr740 said:


> Staurogyne purple


Those offshoots spread like runners.


----------



## yusufsarac

burr740 said:


> Haha! Well getcha popcorn handy, there's more sequels in this thread than Friday 13th and Elm Street combined! Just when you thought it was safe...
> 
> *1:* What I usually do when a group needs trimming is cut all the good tops off and discard the ratty bottom parts. Then separate the tops in piles of small, med and tall. Go from there.
> 
> Some plants do better mowed down leaving the stumps to come out. Just depends on the species, and what you're trying to accomplish with the group like if you need to make more or it needs to be thicker. Leaving the stumps will accomplish that.
> 
> Several pages back there's a few posts with pictures how I did a couple of groups.
> 
> *2:* I dont have a final recipe but we're in a pretty good range. See below
> 
> Here's the 'How To' post from the other thread
> 
> 
> 
> *3:* Neighboring groups should contrast in shape, color and heights. Im talking about contrast between species
> 
> There is no rule about what shape a group can be. You see a lot of triangle because triangles make it easier to fill a space than squares. Also its a good trick for creating the illusion of depth and scale. Wide in front and narrowing towards the back, for example.
> 
> 
> 
> There's no exact "burr's recipe" ...not yet anyway
> 
> Most people are either copying v13.15, which several people used for a while with good results, or going by the latest recipe I might've posted somewhere when asked about it
> 
> A good general range is .15 -.2 ppm Fe 3x per week. Some tanks are gonna like more, some less. Personally Ive been decreasing these last few months getting much better results dosing .2 3x per week than say .15 daily. I suspect .15 3x might even be better but havent reached that point yet.
> 
> Fe:Mn ratio started out always being 2:1, based on crop studies. But over the last year myself and a few others find it works better in the 3-4:1 range
> 
> Mo, Cu, and Ni levels havent really changed much. B and Zn have been taken all over the country and back again.
> 
> Here's both v13.15 and also the latest I've been using for a couple months now. Anywhere in this range should work well for most folks
> 
> v13.15
> Fe - .15 ppm
> Mn - .075 ppm (lower Mn to .05 or .06)
> B - .03 ppm
> Zn - .055 ppm
> Mo - .0015 ppm
> Cu - .002 ppm
> Ni - .0005 ppm
> 
> Personally I never tried this version dosing only 3x per week. A lot of us were dosing daily at the time. But a few people did, probably still are.
> 
> I think Fe and Mn are probably enough 3x per week, but it's a little low on B and Zn for 3x... I _think_
> 
> What Im doing lately, 3x per week.
> 
> Fe - .2 ppm
> Mn - .06 ppm
> B - .05 ppm
> Zn - .07 ppm
> Mo - .0015 ppm
> Cu - .0024 ppm
> Ni - .0005 ppm
> 
> So between those two should be a pretty good range for most folks
> 
> I'll probably try a .15 version next and see how that goes. Micros have sort of been on hold the past couple of months. Had to get PO4 back in line and now trying out lower K levels and higher Mg (along with Vin and seeing very good results so far) but that's another story....
> 
> Current weekly macros are 25 NO3, 5 PO4, and about 18 K, all from KNO3 and P, no extra. In another couple of weeks gonna work that down to 20/4 and see what happens
> 
> 10 ppm Mg with water changes. There's about 4 in the tap and 40-ish Ca. Thats getting close to a 2:1 ratio with accumulation factored in for Mg


Well explained, thank you for the amazing answer. 

- About macros, do you dose them 3x per week or daily as the micros ? and do you dose micros and the macros at the same day ?

- About Mg. Why do you dose it only on water changes ? I put it in my macro solution as MgSo4 and dose it daily or sometimes 3x per week. Do you think that is a bad practice ?

Sorry for not realizing you have answered the macro question a couple comments ago.


----------



## burr740

aqua-botanicae said:


> Those offshoots spread like runners.


Yeah you have to be pretty vigilant pinching wayward branches off to keep the bush shaped up nice.



yusufsarac said:


> - About Mg. Why do you dose it only on water changes ? I put it in my macro solution as MgSo4 and dose it daily or sometimes 3x per week. Do you think that is a bad practice ?


Its fine either way


50 gal pre/post


----------



## lamyers3

@burr740 thanks for this journal, it took me awhile to get through it, you have a lot of technical data in it, and I’m not the fastest learner. (Age, slows everything down) 
I read your journal then read Greggz, after almost giving up on a planted tank. When I started seeing pictures of your tanks it reminded me why I stop the reef tank and witched to a planted tank.
You and Greggz have set the bar high, but the willingness of all on TPT to help others makes this a great community.
Now my tank is showing signs of hope. Still learning and always will be, the tank looks more like a planted tank than an algae farm.
Thank again…


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Yeah you have to be pretty vigilant pinching wayward branches off to keep the bush shaped up nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Its fine either way
> 
> 
> 50 gal pre/post




AR variegata is looking pretty darn good, I know you’ve struggled with it in the past. Do you think it has to do with lowering K or increasing Mg? Or something else?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

vvDO said:


> AR variegata is looking pretty darn good, I know you’ve struggled with it in the past. Do you think it has to do with lowering K or increasing Mg? Or something else?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yeah its doing pretty good these days. I think its a combination of K/Mg and also lowering micros recently. It started to come out of it's shell when I went to .2 3x per week instead of daily. Which was about a month before dropping K. Currently at .17 3x. I plan to go lower but Ive been hovering steady to give this K thing 5-6 weeks before doing anything else

It used to grow pretty well with low micros, like .1 .15 3x. That was with moderate K but not as low as it is now. Guessing, Id say the AR is more to do with micros


----------



## burr740

When keeping it real goes wrong:

Anubias nana snow white that Ive been nursing for at least a year and a half. There's been a few pics of it here and there. Its been through long periods of general suckiness, with brief spurts of occasional growth. All these fert experiments hadnt helped matters, it'd been moved around a lot from extremely high light to extremely low, stuck in a corner for a while, etc. 

But lately it was really coming along, probably 10 nice leaves on a 2" rhizome. 

Turning into a really nice plant except for a few stubborn tufts of bba lodged in with the roots and rhizome. So the other night I pulled off what bba I could, and soaked it down with peroxide, careful to avoid direct leaf contact. Just the roots and rhizome, was gonna let it sit for 15-20 minutes to let the peroxide do its thang.

Well.... I forgot about it. Didnt notice until the next day when I went in there to dose the tank. It'd sat out probably 15 hours. Fuuuuuuuuuuu

The leaves were all toast, they melted away soon as it got wet again. All that's left is the rhizome. Lets see if it comes back...


----------



## Grobbins48

"ALEXA, set an Anubias timer for 15 minutes!"

The echo: "I'm not quite sure what that means..."

Sorry to hear about that. Before I knew and understood the fully H202 and its effects I toasted every anubias plant I had with a spray and sit. That was a rough day and what got me into stems, ha!

Curious to see if it bounces back!


----------



## Quagulator

Bought a dozen crowns of blyxa about a year ago... Forgot about them in a small container full of water + H2O2 until the next day (I didn't trust the seller) 

Long story short I was down 12 crowns of blyxa.

It happens to us all


----------



## Ken Keating1

burr740 said:


> Well.... I forgot about it. Didnt notice until the next day when I went in there to dose the tank. It'd sat out probably 15 hours. Fuuuuuuuuuuu
> 
> The leaves were all toast, they melted away soon as it got wet again. All that's left is the rhizome. Lets see if it comes back...


Funny, I did the same with Rotella, except it was for four hours. Let's just say it definitely had no BBA on it when I found it and the Rotella was a color I'd never seen before!

Umm, BTW, you didn't to forget to ship out the plants I ordered?:grin2::grin2:


----------



## burr740

Ken Keating1 said:


> Umm, BTW, you didn't to forget to ship out the plants I ordered?:grin2::grin2:


Oh man, it hurts that you'd even ask. I might occasionally forget a 100 dollar plant soaking in peroxide but I'd never forget something like that!


----------



## KayakJimW

Ouch! I killed 4 (*FOUR!*) good sized A. pangolino a while back and it still hurts... As I was putting them all into a diluted H2O2 bath I even thought "I probably should do this one at a time incase something goes wrong" 

I hope your White bounces back, still a lot of green on that rhizome. Who knows, maybe several new plants will sprout off? I've had that happen to some bare nana rhizomes before


----------



## DMtankd

burr740 said:


> The leaves were all toast, they melted away soon as it got wet again. All that's left is the rhizome. Lets see if it comes back...


Most likely it has incorporated the H202 into it's DNA and within the confines of Joe's perfect parameters it will incubate and fight back to become a super plant, producing its own H202 and murdering any BBA that comes within squirting distance. Dibs on first batch of Anubias var. Algae Slayer that goes up for sale.


----------



## ipkiss

If it does do what you predict, I offer an alternate name of Anubias Nana "Chuck Norris"


----------



## KayakJimW

I think I see a little beard forming...

Not algae, an actual beard


----------



## burr740

Blyxa novoguineesis 










Got a little bloom action going on. Tough to focus on it, out of twenty-something phone pics this is the best one










New Buce, arrogant blue


----------



## Greggz

Joe that Blyxa novoguineesis is beautiful.

Never heard of it or seen it before. Very, very nice (and the Buce too!).


----------



## Grobbins48

For the Blyxa novoguineesis, is that new from an emersed grown or does it flower submerged normally? I remember my emersed dward sag bloomed quite a bit the first two weeks until it was in its submerged form. 

Really like the color of it too, don't often see a grass looking plant that is not green.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Joe that Blyxa novoguineesis is beautiful.
> 
> Never heard of it or seen it before. Very, very nice (and the Buce too!).


The Blyxa was all green for several months at 30 NO3/week. Started getting some color at 25, now at 20 for the 3rd week its really reddened up. 

This is far from nitrate "starvation." Its not a stress reaction, just the effect of lower levels bringing out a different color. 

Fascinating eh? 



Grobbins48 said:


> For the Blyxa novoguineesis, is that new from an emersed grown or does it flower submerged normally? I remember my emersed dward sag bloomed quite a bit the first two weeks until it was in its submerged form.
> 
> Really like the color of it too, don't often see a grass looking plant that is not green.


No its fully submerged for over a year. Blooms quite regularly but they dont always open like that


----------



## burr740

Here's one in the 20H a couple months ago, almost identical lighting


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> The Blyxa was all green for several months at 30 NO3/week. Started getting some color at 25, now at 20 for the 3rd week its really reddened up.
> 
> This is far from nitrate "starvation." Its not a stress reaction, just the effect of lower levels bringing out a different color.
> 
> Fascinating eh?


Yeah, that is very, very interesting. If it's really just from lower NO3, then that is something to really think about. 

Any similar reactions from other plants? That one's a winner.......any losers??

Since I am going in a similar direction, I will be keeping a close on eye on my colors now. I am phasing in slowly so should be an interesting few weeks coming up.


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> The Blyxa was all green for several months at 30 NO3/week. Started getting some color at 25, now at 20 for the 3rd week its really reddened up.
> 
> This is far from nitrate "starvation." Its not a stress reaction, just the effect of lower levels bringing out a different color.
> 
> Fascinating eh?
> 
> 
> No its fully submerged for over a year. Blooms quite regularly but they dont always open like that


Joe, have you lowered K and P too or just NO3?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Any similar reactions from other plants? That one's a winner.......any losers??


Specifically since reducing NO3 there's only been winners, oddly enough seems like a lot of things have sped up (if that's a good thing) leaf size and shape seems better on several things.

The last thing I did about 3 weeks ago wasnt even a reduction just going to 3 equal doses instead of front loading 60%. Theoretically this should keep the concentrations lower instead of starting the week off high. Given the positive response I see no reason to go back to front loading

And remember all my K comes from KNO3 so K is being affected here as well, not just NO3



OreoP said:


> Joe, have you lowered K and P too or just NO3?


Ive reduced K big time over the past few months. I though I'd shared all that here but maybe it was just other threads, meant to. Anyway I'll try to keep it short;

About 4 months ago I raised K a little bit, like 7 ppm week. I was already dosing about 35/week with 30 NO3. I was trying to make a couple things better, but quite a few things actually got worse. So then I dropped it instead. Down to even with NO3. Plants immediately liked that.

In the meantime Vin, still doing Lythracaea experiments, spoke with a German hobbyist , Hans Kramer, who's also a scientist and writes for Amazonas magazine. Has a plant book out too. He promotes K levels equal to or less than Mg. Sounds crazy right? I thought so too but we decided to try it. And I gotta say it's worked pretty good. 


I started off keeping NO3 at 30, so that the only change would be K:Mg. Raised Mg to 10 ppm after water changes + 4-5 in the tap, and dropped K to around 12-13 per week. I had to get some of the NO3 from Mg nitrate otherwise K would be too high.

It started out just helping Vin with a Lythracaea experiment but many other species got immediately bigger and more robust. Plants I thought were fine to begin with all of a sudden were looking a lot better.

So after about a month I dropped down to 25 NO3. Then to 20 for a couple weeks, still front loading 60%, which brings us to 3 weeks ago starting 3 equal doses.

K is still about 13 per week, whatever is in 20 ppm KNO3 and 4.5 KH2PO4 (PO4 has been constant this whole time)

So Im not sure about the exact Kramer ratio, but lower K along with higher Mg is a definite plus. Oliver Knott, if you know who that is, also recommends extremely low K levels

Really feels like this is the best overall routine Ive had in a long time. I plan to continue to inch down both macros and micros for a while and see what happens. Keeping Mg high and K at just whatever is in the N and P


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> Specifically since reducing NO3 there's only been winners, oddly enough seems like a lot of things have sped up (if that's a good thing) leaf size and shape seems better on some stuff.
> 
> The last thing I did about 3 weeks ago wasnt even a reduction just going to 3 equal doses instead of front loading 60%. Theoretically this should keep the concentrations lower instead of starting the week off high. Given the positive response I see no reason to go back to front loading
> 
> And remember all my K comes from KNO3 so K is being affected here as well, not just NO3
> 
> 
> 
> Ive reduced K big time over the past few months. I though I'd shared all that here but maybe it was just other threads, meant to. Anyway I'll try to keep it short;
> 
> About 4 months ago I raised K a little bit, like 7 ppm week. I was already dosing about 35/week with 30 NO3. I was trying to make a couple things better, but a few things actually got worse. So then I dropped it instead. Down to even with NO3. Plants definitely like it.
> 
> In the meantime Vin, still doing Lythracaea experiments, spoke with a German hobbyist , Hans Kramer, who's also a scientists and writes for Amazonas magazine. has a plant book out too. He promotes K levels equal to or less than Mg. Sounds crazy right? I thought so too but we decided to try it. And I gotta say it's worked pretty good.
> 
> 
> I started off keeping NO3 at 30, raising Mg to 10 ppm after water changes + 4-5 in the tap (~40 ppm Ca) and dropped K to around 12-13 per week. I had get some of the NO3 from Mg nitrate otherwise K would be too high.
> 
> It started out just helping Vin with a Lythracaea experiment but many other species got immediately bigger and more robust. Plants I thought were fine to begin with all of a sudden were looking a lot better.
> 
> So after about a month I dropped down to 25 NO3. Then to 20 for a couple weeks, still front loading 60%, which brings us to 3 weeks ago starting 3 equal doses.
> 
> K is still about 13 per week, whatever is in 20 ppm KNO3 and 4.5 KH2PO4 (PO4 has been constant this whole time)
> 
> So Im not sure about the exact Kramer ratio, but lower K along with higher Mg is a definite plus. Oliver Knott, if you know who that is, also recommends extremely low K levels
> 
> Really feels like this is the best overall routine Ive had in a long time. I plan to continue to inch down both macros and micros for a while and see what happens. Keeping K levels at just whatever is in the N and P


Dosing lower too for the last 3 weeks and have definitely since a remarkable result. Per your earlier postings, I cut back on NO3 to 25ppm and K to just I got from the KNO3 and 5ppm KH2PO4. Also increased Mg. Have been front loading 60%.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Specifically since reducing NO3 there's only been winners, oddly enough seems like a lot of things have sped up (if that's a good thing) leaf size and shape seems better on some stuff.
> 
> The last thing I did about 3 weeks ago wasnt even a reduction just going to 3 equal doses instead of front loading 60%. Theoretically this should keep the concentrations lower instead of starting the week off high. Given the positive response I see no reason to go back to front loading
> 
> And remember all my K comes from KNO3 so K is being affected here as well, not just NO3
> 
> 
> 
> Ive reduced K big time over the past few months. I though I'd shared all that here but maybe it was just other threads, meant to. Anyway I'll try to keep it short;
> 
> About 4 months ago I raised K a little bit, like 7 ppm week. I was already dosing about 35/week with 30 NO3. I was trying to make a couple things better, but quite a few things actually got worse. So then I dropped it instead. Down to even with NO3. Plants definitely liked it.
> 
> In the meantime Vin, still doing Lythracaea experiments, spoke with a German hobbyist , Hans Kramer, who's also a scientists and writes for Amazonas magazine. has a plant book out too. He promotes K levels equal to or less than Mg. Sounds crazy right? I thought so too but we decided to try it. And I gotta say it's worked pretty good.
> 
> 
> I started off keeping NO3 at 30, raising Mg to 10 ppm after water changes + 4-5 in the tap (~40 ppm Ca) and dropped K to around 12-13 per week. I had get some of the NO3 from Mg nitrate otherwise K would be too high.
> 
> It started out just helping Vin with a Lythracaea experiment but many other species got immediately bigger and more robust. Plants I thought were fine to begin with all of a sudden were looking a lot better.
> 
> So after about a month I dropped down to 25 NO3. Then to 20 for a couple weeks, still front loading 60%, which brings us to 3 weeks ago starting 3 equal doses.
> 
> K is still about 13 per week, whatever is in 20 ppm KNO3 and 4.5 KH2PO4 (PO4 has been constant this whole time)
> 
> So Im not sure about the exact Kramer ratio, but lower K along with higher Mg is a definite plus. Oliver Knott, if you know who that is, also recommends extremely low K levels
> 
> Really feels like this is the best overall routine Ive had in a long time. I plan to continue to inch down both macros and micros for a while and see what happens. Keeping K levels at just whatever is in the N and P


and you guys were worried when I cut N and K in half on my tank, probably dumb luck on my part that it's still mostly working out :grin2:

did kremer mention anything about Ca?

you got that blyxa from vin right?


----------



## yusufsarac

burr740 said:


> Specifically since reducing NO3 there's only been winners, oddly enough seems like a lot of things have sped up (if that's a good thing) leaf size and shape seems better on some stuff.
> 
> The last thing I did about 3 weeks ago wasnt even a reduction just going to 3 equal doses instead of front loading 60%. Theoretically this should keep the concentrations lower instead of starting the week off high. Given the positive response I see no reason to go back to front loading
> 
> And remember all my K comes from KNO3 so K is being affected here as well, not just NO3
> 
> 
> 
> Ive reduced K big time over the past few months. I though I'd shared all that here but maybe it was just other threads, meant to. Anyway I'll try to keep it short;
> 
> About 4 months ago I raised K a little bit, like 7 ppm week. I was already dosing about 35/week with 30 NO3. I was trying to make a couple things better, but quite a few things actually got worse. So then I dropped it instead. Down to even with NO3. Plants definitely liked it.
> 
> In the meantime Vin, still doing Lythracaea experiments, spoke with a German hobbyist , Hans Kramer, who's also a scientists and writes for Amazonas magazine. has a plant book out too. He promotes K levels equal to or less than Mg. Sounds crazy right? I thought so too but we decided to try it. And I gotta say it's worked pretty good.
> 
> 
> I started off keeping NO3 at 30, raising Mg to 10 ppm after water changes + 4-5 in the tap (~40 ppm Ca) and dropped K to around 12-13 per week. I had get some of the NO3 from Mg nitrate otherwise K would be too high.
> 
> It started out just helping Vin with a Lythracaea experiment but many other species got immediately bigger and more robust. Plants I thought were fine to begin with all of a sudden were looking a lot better.
> 
> So after about a month I dropped down to 25 NO3. Then to 20 for a couple weeks, still front loading 60%, which brings us to 3 weeks ago starting 3 equal doses.
> 
> K is still about 13 per week, whatever is in 20 ppm KNO3 and 4.5 KH2PO4 (PO4 has been constant this whole time)
> 
> So Im not sure about the exact Kramer ratio, but lower K along with higher Mg is a definite plus. Oliver Knott, if you know who that is, also recommends extremely low K levels
> 
> Really feels like this is the best overall routine Ive had in a long time. I plan to continue to inch down both macros and micros for a while and see what happens. Keeping K levels at just whatever is in the N and P


pheww!! So much value in here. Also good thing for me is, I can actually understand theese info


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> and you guys were worried when I cut N and K in half on my tank, probably dumb luck on my part that it's still mostly working out :grin2:
> did kremer mention anything about Ca?
> 
> you got that blyxa from vin right?


Kramer has no set ppm for Ca but recommends a 4:1-2.5:1 Ca:Mg ratio. With K equal to or ideally lower than Mg. This is a big thing. Claims he can stunt or unstunt Ammania at will by adjusting K above or below Mg. 

Oliver Knott recommends 4:1-2:1 Ca:Mg. No particular ratio for K but a pretty low ppm like 6-9/week. (Im going off memory here) But he also favors lower dosing in general, more like ada style

Yeah Blyxa came from Vin about a year ago. It was red like this when I got it. At the time he was running about 15 ppm NO3 per week in the Dutch. I was at 30 or 35. 

Funny thing, the existing red leaves didnt turn green. Those leaves immediately began to die off and new green leaves replaced them. It'd been green ever since, otherwise healthy and growing about like japonica, except a little slower. 

The green leaves this time however did turn red. It happened slowly over 2-3 weeks, no die off or anything.

Plants are crazy man...


----------



## Immortal1

Very interesting discussion Joe. Looking back at my various spreadsheets I am now realizing that somehow I have been on the K at or lower than Mg band wagon for about 2 weeks now. 
Ca=70ppm (tap)
Mg=18.3ppm (calculated) with 5ppm Mg added weekly by MGSO4 (final Ca:Mg is about 3:1)
Weekly NO3 this week was 25ppm, next week will be 20ppm. Headed towards <20 eventually (15ppm maybe?)
Weekly K around 20ppm
Weekly PO4 at 5ppm


----------



## Greggz

Joe I been giving dosing a lot of thought lately, and there is something beyond dosing that I think is relevant here.

I keep a spreadsheet of all my dosing for the past three years. I recently went through it looking at my N:K and micros dosing, and as you might guess it has varied considerably over time. I am pretty familiar with your dosing and I think the same could be said. 

Somehow I have managed to do alright with a wide variety of amounts/ratios. Some times better than others, but never a real disaster (well maybe a few here and there!:grin2. And I think the lesson is that if you get everything else right (light/CO2/Flow/Maintenance, etc.), that you have a lot more room for error. 

I mean I have seen your tank prosper with radically low micros, very high micros, very low P, much higer P, etc. Would be interesting to see a chart of your dosing over the past 5 years or so. Now that doesn't mean dosing levels aren't important, but IMO there is more to success than just dosing.

Now that being said, maybe there is a better way to bring out the best plant health via dosing, and what we considered very good plant health can be improved on. Based on some of the pictures of plants you have shown recently, I am beginning to believe that to be true. 

I am a few weeks behind you changing my dosing, and am really interested to see where this goes. As always, thanks for sharing your thoughts. From what I am reading here lately, there are quite a few testing this now, so should be interesting to see the results in a variety of tanks and conditions.


----------



## Edward

burr740 said:


> I started off keeping NO3 at 30, so that the only change would be K:Mg. Raised Mg to 10 ppm after water changes + 4-5 in the tap, and dropped K to around 12-13 per week.


 Certainly good direction. I think you can make it even better by lowering Mg. Uptake rate is one thing and water column concentration another. For uptake rates, I found daily additions Mg : K to be 1 : 13 in order to maintain Mg and K consistent water column concentrations. And for actual water column concentrations I would look at five South American rivers where Mg : K varies from 1 : 1 to 1 : 10, with 1 : 3.3 average.


----------



## Edward

burr740 said:


> Kramer has no set ppm for Ca but recommends a 4:1-2.5:1 Ca:Mg ratio. With K equal to or ideally lower than Mg. This is a big thing. Claims he can stunt or unstunt Ammania at will by adjusting K above or below Mg.
> 
> Oliver Knott recommends 4:1-2:1 Ca:Mg. No particular ratio for K but a pretty low ppm like 6-9/week. (Im going off memory here) But he also favors lower dosing in general, more like ada style


 Maybe you can tell why when you see what they are most likely dosing for trace elements. 
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-custom-micro-mix-thread-87.html#post11173639


----------



## burr740

Probably wind up moving them to another tank. Need something else right here for the Dutch layout


----------



## Chlorophile

burr740 said:


> Specifically since reducing NO3 there's only been winners, oddly enough seems like a lot of things have sped up (if that's a good thing) leaf size and shape seems better on several things.
> 
> The last thing I did about 3 weeks ago wasnt even a reduction just going to 3 equal doses instead of front loading 60%. Theoretically this should keep the concentrations lower instead of starting the week off high. Given the positive response I see no reason to go back to front loading


Interesting - I've been using Thrive+ for convenience purposes and its a dose every other day, so basically 3x a week depending on if I dose after WC.


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Probably wind up moving them to another tank. Need something else right here for the Dutch layout


I have a tank you can move them to!


----------



## burr740

Chlorophile said:


> Interesting - I've been using Thrive+ for convenience purposes and its a dose every other day, so basically 3x a week depending on if I dose after WC.


Gotta be careful using an all-in-one along with a dechlorinator that locks up metals. Its good to dose macros back right after a water change. But something like Prime is gonna zap a few micros, effectively killing the first dose of the week (for some of them, not all)


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


>


Very cool Joe.

Have you ever kept them before? How long have you had them?

They appear to be pretty small in relation to everything else. Will they get bigger? Are they propagating for you?

Definitely a neat looking plant.


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> Gotta be careful using an all-in-one along with a dechlorinator that locks up metals. Its good to dose macros back right after a water change. But something like Prime is gonna zap a few micros, effectively killing the first dose of the week (for some of them, not all)




That’s true Joe, it it is also true that Prime can help to “reset” possible contaminants/high levels of specific metals in tap (if you use tap of course). I personally use Prime every time and it works great for me, I have never noticed issues with the first micros dose. That’s just my own experience. Had more problems without using it after each water change... but I use 90% tap. The use of heavy metals reducers must be balanced on a case by case basis. Testing may be necessary... In other words, try with and without and see which way works best for you


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Very cool Joe.
> 
> Have you ever kept them before? How long have you had them?
> 
> They appear to be pretty small in relation to everything else. Will they get bigger? Are they propagating for you?
> 
> Definitely a neat looking plant.


Yeah Ive killed a couple of batches over the years and done OK with others. Touchy plant. These were just split from 3 main plants Ive had for a little while.

They are full grown, although Ive had them get maybe 1/4" taller before. They just get thick and made up of dozens of smaller plants. You can very gently pull them apart


----------



## Chlorophile

burr740 said:


> Yeah Ive killed a couple of batches over the years and done OK with others. Touchy plant. These were just split from 3 main plants Ive had for a little while.
> 
> They are full grown, although Ive had them get maybe 1/4" taller before. They just get thick and made up of dozens of smaller plants. You can very gently pull them apart


oh wow they are TINY! 
Would look great as a accent plant to blyxa in a small iwagumi with HC carpet or something


----------



## burr740

Snow White showing signs of a pulse, apparently it tastes good too 

Focus isnt very good, shrimp moved before I could take many










Blyxa alternifolia










So far its one of few that does significantly better in aquasoil. Its too red to have in front of the Ludwigia for a Dutch layout (made that mistake last year) but I wanna see how it does now with the whole lower K and higher Mg routine


----------



## Immortal1

My guess is Mr. Shrimp is trying to help out by cleaning up what is no longer needed 
And oh wow that Blyxa alternifolia is pretty


----------



## Greggz

Immortal1 said:


> And oh wow that Blyxa alternifolia is pretty


+1.

Interested to see how it does with BDBS and the new dosing. 

I see the Crypt Flamingo still there........How's it doing? Growing much??


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Greggz said:


> Interested to see how it does with BDBS and the new dosing.


My move to all BDBS has me worried???


----------



## Nigel95

Hi Joe,

Do you find the rotala butterfly calculator useable for par data at substrate?

I wonder how much par this 54w bulbs will give me on a 120x60x50 cm tank at 35cm from surface. If 35cm is possible at all to watch the tank without sunglasses lol..
1x dennerle special plant
2x dennerle color plus
1x ati purple plus.

Is it true the purple and red bulbs give less par at sub? That would be great haha.

Regards

Nigel 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> I see the Crypt Flamingo still there........How's it doing? Growing much??


Slow, but nice so far. Saw Dennis' new article talking about how slow it is getting established. Since these are returning from the brink of death... probably the same deal



Maryland Guppy said:


> My move to all BDBS has me worried???


I'd lay odds that 80% of your plants wont miss a beat. 20% are probably in for a rude awakening. Half of those will adjust and do fine after a month or so. But yeah there's probably a few that arent going to do so well

Its more than worth it though, the cleanliness and ease of working with. Being able to mercilessly yank up whatever you want whenever you want. Its freaking great. I didnt appreciate how great until doing aquasoil in a couple of tanks. There'll be no more of that I can promise you...lol



Nigel95 said:


> Hi Joe,
> 
> Do you find the rotala butterfly calculator useable for par data at substrate?
> 
> I wonder how much par this 54w bulbs will give me on a 120x60x50 cm tank at 35cm from surface. If 35cm is possible at all to watch the tank without sunglasses lol..
> 1x dennerle special plant
> 2x dennerle color plus
> 1x ati purple plus.
> 
> Is it true the purple and red bulbs give less par at sub? That would be great haha.
> 
> Regards
> Nigel


Honestly Ive never even looked at the PAR calculator so no idea how accurate it might be

I think extreme red and blues dont fully register on the meters, doesnt mean the par (or plant growing power) isnt there. 

As for those bulbs it all depends on what kind of reflector the light has, individual vs one for all. Gonna be powerful enough either way, might need to raise it a bit with good reflectors


----------



## burr740

Whitewater bloom in the 20H, had to break out the UV










Sensitive Lythracaea - A crassicaulis, A pedicellata, R ramosoir florida and R mac variegated...all doing pretty good (sold 9 fat mac varieg the other day, that group was a lot bigger)

Macros for the week 20/4.5/13 split in 3x equal doses
Micros 3x
Fe -.18
Mn - .05
B - .035
Zn . 04
Mo - .0013
Cu - .002
Ni - .0003

Other tanks are on the same routine. Except the shrimp 20s which get about 5-6 ml of what is supposed to be a 7.5 ml dose

Its working pretty good everywhere


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> Being able to mercilessly yank up whatever you want whenever you want. Its freaking great.


This is a "key" new feature. :grin2:

I've used inert sand products before, and STS.
Don't think it should be too painful.


----------



## Nigel95

burr740 said:


> Slow, but nice so far. Saw Dennis' new article talking about how slow it is getting established. Since these are returning from the brink of death... probably the same deal
> 
> 
> 
> I'd lay odds that 80% of your plants wont miss a beat. 20% are probably in for a rude awakening. Half of those will adjust and do fine after a month or so. But yeah there's probably a few that arent going to do so well
> 
> Its more than worth it though, the cleanliness and ease of working with. Being able to mercilessly yank up whatever you want whenever you want. Its freaking great. I didnt appreciate how great until doing aquasoil in a couple of tanks. There'll be no more of that I can promise you...lol
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly Ive never even looked at the PAR calculator so no idea how accurate it might be
> 
> I think extreme red and blues dont fully register on the meters, doesnt mean the par (or plant growing power) isnt there.
> 
> As for those bulbs it all depends on what kind of reflector the light has, individual vs one for all. Gonna be powerful enough either way, might need to raise it a bit with good reflectors


Yeah the ati has individual and good reflectors per bulb it seems based on my research . Did you ever try yours at like 14" from surface? Is there a lot of glare with your t5 unit at this height ? I wonder if I could make some DIY shades so the light spill in my eyes will be reduced..

Does 60 par seem reasonable to you with 4 bulbs?

I switch between styles and for stem scape I could use more par. But for a carpet, moss, buce scape seems better to bring the par down a bit.. Maybe 60 par at sub is doable with low plantmass. 

















Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

@Nigel95 60 seems low at 34"(?) to the substrate. Is 'good' the best reflector choice? Try 'great' if there is one. Id guess around 90-100 even with those bulbs. Mine is around 100 at 31" with similar colorful bulbs. Having said that, 60 at the sub is plenty to grow most things well

I dont understand how the calculator is determining values really. I suspect it's not very accurate. Maybe @fablau can shed some PAR, err....I mean light on the subject


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Nigel95 60 seems low at 34"(?) to the substrate. Is 'good' the best reflector choice? Try 'great' if there is one. Id guess around 90-100 even with those bulbs. Mine is around 100 at 31" with similar colorful bulbs. Having said that, 60 at the sub is plenty to grow most things well
> 
> I dont understand how the calculator is determining values really. I suspect it's not very accurate. Maybe @fablau can shed some PAR, err....I mean light on the subject


Agreed. 60 PAR seems low for 4 x T5HO with reflectors.

The tricky part of trying to calculate values is that no two bulbs are the same. 

When I tested a bunch of bulbs some time ago, the readings ranged from 55 to 108 PAR depending on the bulb.


----------



## Nigel95

burr740 said:


> @Nigel95 60 seems low at 34"(?) to the substrate. Is 'good' the best reflector choice? Try 'great' if there is one. Id guess around 90-100 even with those bulbs. Mine is around 100 at 31" with similar colorful bulbs. Having said that, 60 at the sub is plenty to grow most things well
> 
> I dont understand how the calculator is determining values really. I suspect it's not very accurate. Maybe @fablau can shed some PAR, err....I mean light on the subject


Yeah its 34 " around 80 to 85 cm from light to substrate. But this is already with the fixture way higher than they recommend. Good is the best category they have. They have. Poor, fair and good as option. Now I wish I would got the dimmable unit. As 100 par on sub will be lots of maintenance with a low plantmass scape. I can run 2 bulbs but this will give spread issue I think on 60 cm depth. Also with 2 bulbs might be hard to get a nice look for the eye in terms of spectrum.

So only solution is even higher than 35cm from surface the fixture lol. Anyone has an idea for good material to make DIY shades?

I guess more than 60 max 70 par will only give more work rather than better results with sp like fissidens, riccardia, monte carlo, buces etc. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Nigel95

Greggz said:


> Agreed. 60 PAR seems low for 4 x T5HO with reflectors.
> 
> The tricky part of trying to calculate values is that no two bulbs are the same.
> 
> When I tested a bunch of bulbs some time ago, the readings ranged from 55 to 108 PAR depending on the bulb.


Damn big difference indeed! Maybe try to rent a par meter. But don't think they do that service over here in the Netherlands. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## Edward

burr740,
you have really great idea testing a clone of Upgraded CSM+B but using unchelated compounds instead. How long are you dosing it?


burr740 said:


> Micros 3x
> Fe -.18
> Mn - .05
> B - .035
> Zn . 04
> Mo - .0013
> Cu - .002
> Ni - .0003
> 
> Other tanks are on the same routine.
> Its working pretty good everywhere


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-custom-micro-mix-thread-89.html#post11177499


----------



## burr740

Edward said:


> burr740,
> you have really great idea testing a clone of Upgraded CSM+B but using unchelated compounds instead. How long are you dosing it?
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-custom-micro-mix-thread-89.html#post11177499



Its been a couple of weeks. Honestly I havent even looked at "upgraded csmb" other than to see you added some Zn and Ni. This latest is me reducing B and Zn from a previous mix based on plant reactions

I think it's fairer to say "upgraded csmb" (which was a great idea btw) is patterned after the custom mixes, not the other way around. Wouldnt you agree?


----------



## Edward

burr740
You could have said something like “it just happened” or “it is a coincident”, everybody would understand. But no, you lie and at the end you accuse me of copying your custom mixes pattern? Quite disappointing. 

I simply added Zn and Ni to CSM+B. Not “some” and not following your pattern. If you look at the chart, you will see how I did it. I added the same levels of Zn and Ni as is the Typical plant ratio analysis on the right side of the chart. Everybody knows the product is low on Zn and is missing Ni, not my invention. It was simple, that’s why I named it “Upgraded”.

What you lie about? 
You did not reduce B as you claim because it is the same in Micro 13.15 as is in Micro Upgraded CSM+B clone. Variation of +/- 1.5% is rounding. 

Zn you reduced, yes, from 0.0367 to 0.0222, and 0.0200 is in Upgraded CSM+B. Coincident? Maybe, why not.

What you conveniently forgot to mention?
You reduced Mn from 0.0500 to 0.0278, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.0286. Pretty obvious, isn’t it? Mo you reduced from 0.0010 to 0.0007, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.00086. You also reduced Cu. Ni you reduced from 0.000333 to 0.000167, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.000100.

Again, the pattern is obvious and it is nothing you mentioned. Numbers don’t lie.



burr740 said:


> Its been a couple of weeks. Honestly I havent even looked at "upgraded csmb" other than to see you added some Zn and Ni. This latest is me reducing B and Zn from a previous mix based on plant reactions
> 
> I think it's fairer to say "upgraded csmb" (which was a great idea btw) is patterned after the custom mixes, not the other way around. Wouldnt you agree?


----------



## burr740

Edward said:


> burr740
> You could have said something like “it just happened” or “it is a coincident”, everybody would understand. But no, you lie and at the end you accuse me of copying your custom mixes pattern? Quite disappointing.
> 
> I simply added Zn and Ni to CSM+B. Not “some” and not following your pattern. If you look at the chart, you will see how I did it. I added the same levels of Zn and Ni as is the Typical plant ratio analysis on the right side of the chart. Everybody knows the product is low on Zn and is missing Ni, not my invention. It was simple, that’s why I named it “Upgraded”.
> 
> What you lie about?
> You did not reduce B as you claim because it is the same in Micro 13.15 as is in Micro Upgraded CSM+B clone. Variation of +/- 1.5% is rounding.
> 
> Zn you reduced, yes, from 0.0367 to 0.0222, and 0.0200 is in Upgraded CSM+B. Coincident? Maybe, why not.
> 
> What you conveniently forgot to mention?
> You reduced Mn from 0.0500 to 0.0278, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.0286. Pretty obvious, isn’t it? Mo you reduced from 0.0010 to 0.0007, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.00086. You also reduced Cu. Ni you reduced from 0.000333 to 0.000167, Upgraded CSM+B has 0.000100.
> 
> Again, the pattern is obvious and it is nothing you mentioned. Numbers don’t lie.


OK well, it's just a coincidence then. 

v13.15 was what, a year ago? There's been a dozen trial versions since then. Going slowly way up and then back down. The previous, latest recipe, v32.17

Fe - .17
Mn - .05
B - .045
Zn - .06
Mo - .0013
Cu - .002
Ni - .0003

From which I reduced B and Zn to the current levels.

Wasnt trying to "accuse" you of anything, lol. Just being perfectly clear that it's not a clone of something else.

I mean you could've said the same thing initially. Like "Oh hey that's about like my upgraded csmb" recipe, but you chose to word it differently yourself....


----------



## fablau

burr740 said:


> @Nigel95 60 seems low at 34"(?) to the substrate. Is 'good' the best reflector choice? Try 'great' if there is one. Id guess around 90-100 even with those bulbs. Mine is around 100 at 31" with similar colorful bulbs. Having said that, 60 at the sub is plenty to grow most things well
> 
> I dont understand how the calculator is determining values really. I suspect it's not very accurate. Maybe @fablau can shed some PAR, err....I mean light on the subject




I worked with Jason on that calculator, and a can say that it is NOT accurate at all. It gives you just an “idea” of the PAR values you could get with a specific light setup. The way we made it is by gathering measured values around the web for each light and fixture trying to find an algorithm that could match the values with a 10-20% approximation... therefore, it is definitively NOT accurate.

For accurate measurements, please, use a PAR mater


----------



## Quagulator

burr740 said:


> Whitewater bloom in the 20H, had to break out the UV


Which UV unit do you have?

How do you like it? 

Currently in the market for something similar....


----------



## burr740

Quagulator said:


> Which UV unit do you have?
> 
> How do you like it?
> 
> Currently in the market for something similar....


This one, got off the bay and it came with a spare bulb. I like that you can adjust the flow, got it all the way down in this little 20 gal, which means more exposure to the light.

Like any sunsun product it's not the most heavy duty piece of equipment, but it gets the job done.

Think it'd be good for the occasional cloudy water bloom in say, up to a 50 gal. Bigger than that might wanna get the 13w

Look on the bay you can probably find one that comes with an extra bulb

https://www.amazon.ca/SunSun-JUP-22-Sterilizer-Submersible-Microsystems/dp/B00FAEG62C


----------



## Quagulator

burr740 said:


> This one, got off the bay and it came with a spare bulb. I like that you can adjust the flow, got it all the way down in this little 20 gal, which means more exposure to the light.
> 
> Like any sunsun product it's not the most heavy duty piece of equipment, but it gets the job done.
> 
> Think it'd be good for the occasional cloudy water bloom in say, up to a 50 gal. Bigger than that might wanna get the 13w
> 
> Look on the bay you can probably find one that comes with an extra bulb
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/SunSun-JUP-22-Sterilizer-Submersible-Microsystems/dp/B00FAEG62C


I was looking at that one as it is priced well, I don't feel like paying an arm or a leg for one... 

It would be going onto a 90 gallon to clear up some green water. I don't mind leaving it in there for longer. Only the 9w is available here in Canada for the time being. You figure that would be too small?


----------



## burr740

Quagulator said:


> I was looking at that one as it is priced well, I don't feel like paying an arm or a leg for one...
> 
> It would be going onto a 90 gallon to clear up some green water. I don't mind leaving it in there for longer. Only the 9w is available here in Canada for the time being. You figure that would be too small?


These sunsun canisters I use come with 9 watts. They'll clear up a 75 in just a few days with a fresh bulb. Probably be fine


----------



## super_smirky

I couldn't see this part covered, but if i were to replicate your ratio of macros for a 75 gallon....would i just divide your ratio by 120 times 75 and use that as the corresponding ratio for my tank?


----------



## burr740

super_smirky said:


> I couldn't see this part covered, but if i were to replicate your ratio of macros for a 75 gallon....would i just divide your ratio by 120 times 75 and use that as the corresponding ratio for my tank?


This tank IS a 75 gal. The 120 burst a seam about a year ago. Just dont go by whatever is in the OP because that's about the 120. Anything recent is the 75


----------



## burr740

Finally discovered the floor for NO3/K - 15/10 per week isnt enough. Pics from a couple weeks ago:

Severe K in Limno rugosa. Early signs










About a week later










Its funny, in 3 years with this plant, through all the ups and downs and fert experiments, it's never even blinked. Not once... until now.

Ludwigia inclinata deteriorating lower leaves.










Buces were starting to develop speckled pinholes in older leaves (no pics of that)

Other things showing low NO3 in the form of pale shrunken tops. Limnophila aquatica 'orange top' gone to hell along with Ambulia

You can see one top here thats still good. The rest stunted/pinched off. 










^ Hard to see in the pic, Hygro 53 B has very pale new leaves, showing no distinct K symptoms

Acmella repens and Eichornia diversifolia showing low NO3










^ Ignore the crappy looking furcata. Its been like that for months ever since dropping micros from .2 and .25 daily. Really the only plant I have that seems to NEED high Fe/micros. Everything else does better with less

Astute minds must be thinking, what about Leibig's Law? There can only be one deficiency at a time, right? 

Right. But it's species specific. Some plants need more of this or more of that than others. Rugosa is only showing K for example, other plants only showing low NO3. 

The remedy: Decided to address the low NO3 first and let the K ride. Added .5 urea 3 days in a row, then 3x per week on top of macros. This almost immediately solved the low NO3. K was no better after a week so I dry dosed 6 ppm a couple of times, now back to 18 per week.

All tanks had been getting the same treatment, and K was too low across the board. The 20L shrimp tanks had come to a standstill recently. Nothing looking too bad, except fresh planted marsilea just sitting there getting bba, but mainly just zero growth in anything. Only changed K in these to start with. Dry dosed 6 ppm and a few days later all the crypts were sprouting new leaves and the Marsilea had taken off like you'd expect.

So 15/10 week wasnt enough for any tank. I know @Greggz is currently having good success with it, but his KH is a lot lower than mine. Like 1 compared to 5-6. Makes a big difference because plants abosorb things easier in lower KH

The urea produced such a dramatic effect I decided to run that for a while. Currently dosing 3x per week - 3 ppm NO3 and .7 urea (~equal to 3 ppm NO3) I think .7 is a little rich, .5 would probably do but Im gonna go ahead and run this bottle out.

K is 18/week, PO4 3.9, Micros are .1 Fe 3x, dosing everything 3x per week.

Keeping the same Mg - 10 ppm with water changes + 4-5 in the tap. There's about 40 Ca in the tap. So K is now a little higher than Mg, but dosed in 3 smaller 6 ppm doses where Mg is all at once. And still there's a big difference in 18 and 35+ per week. There's still no question lower K levels are better, just not as low as 10 (in mine)

After pics coming next...


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> So 15/10 week wasnt enough for any tank. I know @Greggz is currently having good success with it, but his KH is a lot lower than mine. Like 1 compared to 5-6. Makes a big difference because plants abosorb things easier in lower KH


Like I told you Joe, this is very, very interesting. Shows what can what happen when something is limited, so a good lesson for everyone.

My NO3/K is 15/11. And in addition to lower KH, you also have to consider my fish load as well. I have seen no deficiencies like above, but as I mentioned in my journal, growth has slowed considerably. Have a feeling I am bouncing off the low K limit now. I will probably bump up K slightly for a couple of weeks to see the reaction. 

Just goes to show that one needs to find the best balance for their particular tank.

And looking forward to seeing the "after" pics. Should be very instructional as well.


----------



## burr740

Rugosa is doing well again. Pinholes have stopped showing up, Ludwigia inclinata is more robust and not further deteriorating lower leaves. The already damaged ones, obviously, arent going to repair










Ludwigia inclinata, I like this plant. It's pretty fast but not quite pantanal fast. Tentatively planning a thick group where the furcata is when I start narrowing things down to the next Dutch.










Limnophila aquatica 'orange top' is recovering. Here its starting to close up for the night










It's smaller than gigantea but bigger than other aquatica species, little slower than ambulia.










Acmella and Eichornia diversifolia pretty happy again. Gonna try to use Eichornia somewhere, nice dark green with a hammered pattern. 










Bonus shot of the 20H










Homalomena 'sekudo south' is the green focal species. Penthorum sedoides bottom left

New Kill Corner with some Tonina, Syns, Rotala florida, A pedicellata and Cuphaea. These have been there for about a month, doing fairly well all things considered.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> New Kill Corner with some Tonina, Syns, Rotala florida, A pedicellata and Cuphaea. These ahve been there about a month, doing fairly well all things considered.


I've been considering trying those same plants with the new dosing. So will be very interested to see how they do for you, and maybe save me the trouble. 

And very nice recovery. Demonstrates that too little dosing can create it's own problems.

Wish I didn't see that L. Inclinata. It is a good looking plant. A large bush should look spectacular. If I had room I'd be trying to find it right now.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Greggz said:


> If I had room I'd be trying to find it right now.


Relax, that Bihar will fill out!


----------



## Greggz

Maryland Guppy said:


> Relax, that Bihar will fill out!


LOL I don't even have room for that!


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> I've been considering trying those same plants with the new dosing. So will be very interested to see how they do for you, and maybe save me the trouble.


They're soft water plants, mainly just need a low KH. They should grow very well in yours.

Speaking of, next up: Lowering KH with HCL. Its what Marain and all those Romanian guys do. Water is expensive and RO isnt feasible. Just recently found out they're all dropping their KH with HCL. 

So buckle up for that! :nerd:


----------



## Immortal1

Hcl?


----------



## vvDO

Greggz said:


> Like I told you Joe, this is very, very interesting. Shows what can what happen when something is limited, so a good lesson for everyone.
> 
> 
> 
> My NO3/K is 15/11. And in addition to lower KH, you also have to consider my fish load as well. I have seen no deficiencies like above, but as I mentioned in my journal, growth has slowed considerably. Have a feeling I am bouncing off the low K limit now. I will probably bump up K slightly for a couple of weeks to see the reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> Just goes to show that one needs to find the best balance for their particular tank.
> 
> 
> 
> And looking forward to seeing the "after" pics. Should be very instructional as well.




I wonder if you’re also not seeing deficiencies because you front load macros.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> They're soft water plants, mainly just need a low KH. They should grow very well in yours.
> 
> Speaking of, next up: Lowering KH with HCL. Its what Marain and all those Romanian guys do. Water is expensive and RO isnt feasible. Just recently found out they're all dropping their KH with HCL.
> 
> So buckle up for that! :nerd:


wouldn't using a RODI unit be a lot safer?


----------



## natemcnutty

Immortal1 said:


> Hcl?


Hydrochloric acid / muratic acid. Beware the chemical burns... If you are prone to spilling or consider yourself a bit of a cluts, definitely sit this one out


----------



## natemcnutty

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> wouldn't using a RODI unit be a lot safer?


Yes, but RO is more wasteful, expensive, and throws out GH requiring you add it back. HCl works well if you measure it right, but I don't trust myself with a strong acid like that...


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

natemcnutty said:


> Yes, but RO is more wasteful, expensive, and throws out GH requiring you add it back. HCl works well if you measure it right, but I don't trust myself with a strong acid like that...


I dont trust myself with it either, got sent to the hospital straight from my high school science class once because of it LOL


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> wouldn't using a RODI unit be a lot safer?


Not when you have 8 tanks and the closest one is 77 feet from where the unit would have to go.

Ive used HCL back in the day cleaning bricks, so Im familiar with it. I'll be cutting 32% down to 25, using a bottle with a dosing pump, 2 ml per squirt, X squirts per tank. Something like that. It's all figured out as far as dosing and administration and everything. Just gotta try it and see how it works.


----------



## Chlorophile

burr740 said:


> Not when you have 8 tanks and the closest one is 77 feet from where the unit would have to go.
> 
> Ive used HCL back in the day cleaning bricks, so Im familiar with it. I'll be cutting 32% down to 25, using a bottle with a dosing pump, 2 ml per squirt, X squirts per tank. Something like that. It's all figured out as far as dosing and administration and everything. Just gotta try it and see how it works.


I love me a good shortcut lol - please please keep us posted cause my horrid KH is something I can't stand and my new house has no where with a drain to put an RO unit and holding tank.

edit:
Interesting you saw that with Limno Rugosa - I notice sometimes some pale venation on it and things that look like your photos. 
I noticed this week after forgetting to dose nh4 that my Bacopa Colorata stunted pretty bad - all the new leaves are tiny and kinda weird. 
Presumably N related, and since dosing NH4 I haven't lost a single B. Colorata, they used to deform at the tips fairly often. 
I wonder if the Rugosa would show symptoms soon too but maybe is slower to react as its a little less stemmy.

p.s. Do you have more info regarding the Urea? 
I have urea for my yard but I've been using the Ammonium Sulphate and only dosing at peak co2 for PH reasons. 
I figure Urea becomes nh4 via hydrolysis or something anyway so I haven't really considered the benefits of Urea vs Nh4 other than perhaps slower release or more pH variation tolerance


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> They're soft water plants, mainly just need a low KH. They should grow very well in yours.
> 
> Speaking of, next up: Lowering KH with HCL. Its what Marain and all those Romanian guys do. Water is expensive and RO isnt feasible. Just recently found out they're all dropping their KH with HCL.
> 
> So buckle up for that! :nerd:


Not a new practice by any means.
Burns KH right up, down to desired levels, destroying bicarbonates and carbonates.
Very much *unlike* our pH swings with carbonic acid.

Home Depot $5 per gallon for roughly 32%.


----------



## burr740

Chlorophile said:


> p.s. Do you have more info regarding the Urea?
> I have urea for my yard but I've been using the Ammonium Sulphate and only dosing at peak co2 for PH reasons.
> I figure Urea becomes nh4 via hydrolysis or something anyway so I haven't really considered the benefits of Urea vs Nh4 other than perhaps slower release or more pH variation tolerance


As far the end result probably not much difference. With urea just be sure there's some nickel present somewhere. Plants need that to make urease, which is the enzyme needed to process urea.


----------



## Greggz

Well this should be interesting. Just what everyone needs.......another Rabbit Hole to dive into!:wink2:

But seriously, I am very, very curious to see where this goes. Interesting that Marian and those guys use this method. One thing I have always thought is that when you see a successful tank, you need to understand EVERYTHING about it. Dosing is just one single aspect. Usually the deeper you dig, there is more there than meets than eye at first sight.

And the set of photos above demonstrates something else. Sometimes we see beautiful tanks, and you need to understand they are using a very select group of plants that thrive in the conditions they create. When you have a tank with 20+ species, the trick is getting everything as good you can for the entire group. Each may have different peak parameters, so it's another balancing act to keep them all happy at once.


----------



## Ken Keating1

Burr, what product are you using for Urea? I'm assuming it's (NH2)2CO 46-0-0, 99+% pure, like this?, 

After reading up on it, I've decided to start dosing urea, just to give it a try and see what happens. I have an extra dosing channel available, so what the heck, let's see how the plants respond.

@Greggz, @Immortal1, you're going to need to update that shared dosing SS with (NH2)2CO!:grin2:

Edit: Not sure why there's a winky smiley in the title, that's not supposed to be there and it's doesn't show up in edit mode so I can't delete it.


----------



## burr740

Ken Keating1 said:


> Burr, what product are you using for Urea? I'm assuming it's (NH2)2CO 46-0-0, 99+% pure, like this?,
> 
> After reading up on it, I've decided to start dosing urea, just to give it a try and see what happens. I have an extra dosing channel available, so what the heck, let's see how the plants respond.
> 
> @*Greggz*, @*Immortal1*, you're going to need to update that shared dosing SS with (NH2)2CO!:grin2:
> 
> Edit: Not sure why there's a winky smiley in the title, that's not supposed to be there and it's doesn't show up in edit mode so I can't delete it.



Yeah that's it


----------



## yusufsarac

burr740 said:


> They're soft water plants, mainly just need a low KH. They should grow very well in yours.
> 
> Speaking of, next up: Lowering KH with HCL. Its what Marain and all those Romanian guys do. Water is expensive and RO isnt feasible. Just recently found out they're all dropping their KH with HCL.
> 
> So buckle up for that! :nerd:


Man! Who are those Romanian guys and where are they telling this ? I want to watch or read. I believe it is a game changer for everyone. For all theese months / years a believe if you want lower KH you setup a Rodi water system. Because everyone is doing that right ?


----------



## burr740

yusufsarac said:


> Man! Who are those Romanian guys and where are they telling this ? I want to watch or read. I believe it is a game changer for everyone. For all theese months / years a believe if you want lower KH you setup a Rodi water system. Because everyone is doing that right ?


I know right?!! I would've been using this years ago if I'd know it was as simple as that. Already done it in 3 tanks btw, works great, fish are fine. Will give the details later.

Marian Sterian, really good plant grower from Romania. Has his own line of ferts over there, Master Line

His current tank is the first attached pic. Second pic is Daniel Deacu's, another Romanian e-bro of mine. Both have inert gravel subs

They hang out in the facebook group 'High tech Planted Tanks'. Should join if you're on FB, 23K members, Dennis Wong and Mark Crow run the group.

Vin and I learned the HCL details from private chats, its not exactly a well known thing or even talked about much. Idk why, it was big news to me lol. I was like WHAAAT??


----------



## OreoP

Stunning tanks. What kH value are you aiming for?


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## SingAlongWithTsing

Are you doing it post water change Joe?

I'm tempted to try HCL but going from 11 dkH to 5 and below seems like it would take a lot.


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Are you doing it post water change Joe?
> 
> I'm tempted to try HCL but going from 11 dkH to 5 and below seems like it would take a lot.


Just did this mid-week in the middle of the night. From here on out will only need to dose for water change volume, not the whole tank. I'll do that at water changes. It may not take as much as you think, read on...



OreoP said:


> Stunning tanks. What kH value are you aiming for?


Tap is 6 and Im shooting for 1 or 2. Calculated from Marian's dosing initially (attached) except the HCL I have is 32% instead of 25. Found it at Lowes for $10 a gal.

Started out with the 50 gal because it doesnt have fish. Arrived at 28 ML to drop it 4 points. Added it all at once, directly in the current. A big waft of smoke rolled off the surface! Wooah, what's that number for hazmat??!! It was brief though, gone in a couple of seconds

20 minutes later, PH was 3.4 and KH was zero. PH is a result of co2 by product, it'll climb back up. KH, yeah this was a little too much.

Next I did the farm 75. It has 5-6 odd Tetras and a Platy. Did 10 ML doses about 20 minutes apart. This is what Daniel said do if you have fish, partial doses a few minutes apart. Fish thought it was feeding time. They swam up to where I was at and took a direct hit. Didnt seem to faze them.

Tested KH about 15 minutes after each dose (it doesnt take long!) It was dropping a point-point and a half each time.

Three doses later, KH was in the 1-2 range. Hard to tell with this API test. It started to turn on the first drop and fully turned on the second. Need a better test to know exactly, either way that's about right.

So generally speaking, 10 ML of 32% will drop a 75 gal 1.3-1.5 or so. That's not bad at all, thought it'd take a lot more.

From here on out will only need to dose for the % of water change volume, not the whole tank.

*EDIT: Oh yeah meant to add that Im using one of those double neck, squeeze measuring bottles. Makes it easy and you're not trying to pour acid in a 5 ml cap or something like that. Ordered some 500 ML bottles with 2 ML dosing pumps but they arent here yet. Then it'll just be squirt, squirt, squirt... 

Just for giggles here's a vid while I was waiting between the 2nd and 3rd dose. It's middle of the night and plants are all closed up. There's not a ton of current in this tank so I stuck a Koralia pump in there just for this to have more flow. That's why everything on the right side is blowing around so much. At the very end you'll see 6 little Sunsets I'd just got in, they are tiny and near death, guy just gave them to me. Oh and dont mind the BBA, need to suck that out.


----------



## LRJ

Really interesting stuff. What is the benefit of targeting say 1 or 2 KH as opposed to zero? 
I've been running on pure RODI water with a KH very close to zero for some time. I sometimes wonder whether I should be adding some KH back.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## burr740

LRJ said:


> Really interesting stuff. What is the benefit of targeting say 1 or 2 KH as opposed to zero?
> I've been running on pure RODI water with a KH very close to zero for some time. I sometimes wonder whether I should be adding some KH back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


No idea. Ive always heard that PH can crash (whatever that means) if KH is zero. That notion is probably overblown. I know several folks running zero KH with good results. Im just aiming for 1 or 2 to still have some, not gonna sweat having zero though.


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## SingAlongWithTsing

dumb question but how much Cl would doing this put in our water? or would make it some inert salts?


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## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> dumb question but how much Cl would doing this put in our water? or would make it some inert salts?


Not sure but it does add some I believe, Vin could tell you. My tap has pretty low levels to begin with, like 8 ppm. Might be a factor for taps that are high in it.


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## Quagulator

Wondering what the costs would be to drop it from 15 down to 1-2....... I guess I can initially do it without fish preset (new tank setup) and then only dose the incoming WC water...


----------



## Immortal1

Joe, what are the advantages to lowering the KH of the water? 
I realize there are many plants that prefer a lower KH, and many of those plants just simply won't grow in a higher KH environment.
But, I seem to remember you are somebody stating that various nutrients are more available to the plants in a lower KH environment. Is that true? If so, another good reason to try and lower one's KH level.
Mine typically runs around 8 degrees by the API test. With the flood waters around here lately it is likely lower. But, Assuming I am still at 8dKH, lowering my environment to 4dKH may make a noticeable with some of the more sensitive plants that I already have.


----------



## burr740

Quagulator said:


> Wondering what the costs would be to drop it from 15 down to 1-2....... I guess I can initially do it without fish preset (new tank setup) and then only dose the incoming WC water...


It'd probably make a big difference just going down to 5 or 6 if you didnt want to take it all the way.



Immortal1 said:


> Joe, what are the advantages to lowering the KH of the water?
> I realize there are many plants that prefer a lower KH, and many of those plants just simply won't grow in a higher KH environment.
> But, I seem to remember you are somebody stating that various nutrients are more available to the plants in a lower KH environment. Is that true? If so, another good reason to try and lower one's KH level.
> Mine typically runs around 8 degrees by the API test. With the flood waters around here lately it is likely lower. But, Assuming I am still at 8dKH, lowering my environment to 4dKH may make a noticeable with some of the more sensitive plants that I already have.


The extent of my knowledge is that, in general, plants absorb nutrients and co2 better in lower KH levels. Adding more gas or ferts wont help if the KH is too high for a species' liking. 

Some species dont care, some it'll really help (Rotala, Ammania), others like Syns, Tonina, and most Erios flat out require it.

I can tell several things have perked up already. Maybe CO2 is being absorbed easier. Maybe nutrients are more available now with the lower PH (almost certainly). 

Its too early to say just how much difference its gonna make. And will there be any species that dont like it? Will lower nutrients than the current routine produce better results? Still a lot of questions...

But yeah going from 8 to 4 would probably help everything.


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> It'd probably make a big difference just going down to 5 or 6 if you didnt want to take it all the way.
> 
> 
> 
> The extent of my knowledge is that, in general, plants absorb nutrients and co2 better in lower KH levels. Adding more gas or ferts wont help if the KH is too high for a species' liking.
> 
> Some species dont care, some it'll really help (Rotala, Ammania), others like Syns, Tonina, and most Erios flat out require it.
> 
> I can tell several things have perked up already. Maybe CO2 is being absorbed easier. Maybe nutrients are more available now with the lower PH (almost certainly).
> 
> Its too early to say just how much difference its gonna make. And will there be any species that dont like it? Will lower nutrients than the current routine produce better results? Still a lot of questions...
> 
> But yeah going from 8 to 4 would probably help everything.


"others like Syns, Tonina, and most Erios flat out require it" - Exactly why I have never had any luck with those plants :frown2:
I will say this - I kinda wish the major flooding around here would stick around for awhile - tap water is once again 5dKH & 8dGH.

I was thinking you said something earlier about nutrient absorbtion. Now I see you said co2 as well. Remembering Gregg has been discussing co2 & KH on his thread - this now all seems to fit together. My Menards has some Muratic Acid, 31% for pretty cheap - I will likely get some when I notice my tap KH going up again. Guess I figure right now my tank KH is going down every weekend with water changes, might as well keep the slow downward progression going. Might even shoot for around 4dKH :surprise: My poor plants will probably be in heaven, LOL

So, you also say the the PH will also be lower overall using this method (HCL) - does not surprise me as you are adding an acid to the body of water. Was guessing it would not drop by much though given the small amount of HCL I believe you are adding.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> "others like Syns, Tonina, and most Erios flat out require it" - Exactly why I have never had any luck with those plants :frown2:
> I will say this - I kinda wish the major flooding around here would stick around for awhile - tap water is once again 5dKH & 8dGH.
> 
> I was thinking you said something earlier about nutrient absorbtion. Now I see you said co2 as well. Remembering Gregg has been discussing co2 & KH on his thread - this now all seems to fit together. My Menards has some Muratic Acid, 31% for pretty cheap - I will likely get some when I notice my tap KH going up again. Guess I figure right now my tank KH is going down every weekend with water changes, might as well keep the slow downward progression going. Might even shoot for around 4dKH :surprise: My poor plants will probably be in heaven, LOL
> 
> So, you also say the the PH will also be lower overall using this method (HCL) - does not surprise me as you are adding an acid to the body of water. Was guessing it would not drop by much though given the small amount of HCL I believe you are adding.



Degassed PH is .6-.7 lower than before...pretty big difference


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Degassed PH is .6-.7 lower than before...pretty big difference


Yeah my guess is a direct relationship between the KH drop (removing carbonates) and pH drop. All relative to degassed pH. 

At about 1 KH what is the pH now?


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## Penta

burr740 said:


> Currently dosing 3x per week - 3 ppm NO3 and .7 urea (~equal to 3 ppm NO3)


Can you pls tell me how do you calculate that 0.7 Urea?
In my calculations 3ppm NO3 equals to 0.678ppm Nitrogen and to reach that target you need 145mg Urea added to 100l aquarium water.


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## Ken Keating1

LRJ said:


> Really interesting stuff. What is the benefit of targeting say 1 or 2 KH as opposed to zero?
> I've been running on pure RODI water with a KH very close to zero for some time. I sometimes wonder whether I should be adding some KH back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk





burr740 said:


> No idea. Ive always heard that PH can crash (whatever that means) if KH is zero. That notion is probably overblown. I know several folks running zero KH with good results. Im just aiming for 1 or 2 to still have some, not gonna sweat having zero though.


FWIW, for the past 16 months, except for two months, my KH has been 0-1. For two months I was dosing for KH to obtain a 4 to 6 range. Why, because I read somewhere that at 0-1 the pH could crash. But after thinking about it I came to the conclusion that that wasn't really going to happen, heck, my pH was consistent from 12 months at 0-1, so why would it suddenly crash, it just didn't make sense. I just checked, so at 1 drop the color changed, so I'm probably below 1. No issues yet, and I'm pretty sure there won't be any.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Yeah my guess is a direct relationship between the KH drop (removing carbonates) and pH drop. All relative to degassed pH.
> 
> At about 1 KH what is the pH now?


Its about 7.1 and before it was about 7.75.

Havent touched CO2, still running the same injection rate everywhere. Peak values are down one or two tenths as far as how much the PH drops. So I can probably back that off a little.



Penta said:


> Can you pls tell me how do you calculate that 0.7 Urea?
> In my calculations 3ppm NO3 equals to 0.678ppm Nitrogen and to reach that target you need 145mg Urea added to 100l aquarium water.


I use the calculator here - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator


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## Penta

burr740 said:


> I use the calculator here - Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator


Me too. According to it 3ppm NO3 equals to 1.45ppm Urea. Or Am I wrong ?


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## ObsidianRose

Beautiful tank! 

Reading this has made me that much more appreciative of my soft water that comes from the tap with 3-4 GH/KH. With my coordination adding HCL would invariably result me burning my hair off or something.


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## burr740

Penta said:


> Me too. According to it 3ppm NO3 equals to 1.45ppm Urea. Or Am I wrong ?


That's right. The multiplier for urea -> NO3 is about 2

However, the calculator figures urea as N. The multiplier for N -> NO3 is about 4.4

So when I say Im adding .7 ppm urea, that's not exactly correct. What it really means is Im adding enough urea to equal .7 ppm N, which is the equivalent of about 3 ppm NO3. In other words Im using the calculator to target .7 N from urea, not .7 urea specifically. 

Does that make sense?


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## chayos00

Bit late to the conversation (dang life getting in the way) but for the HCL (pool acid) I have a hot tub where I have to drop the KH levels to keep my pH levels in the needed range, thanks Arizona liquid rock water! It is some hazardous stuff for sure, never get a whiff of it for sure! However I had wondered how it would work as a standalone for use in a storage container for water changes. When I do my hot tub it drops the pH like a rock for about 24hrs till it balances out and gets rid of all the kH that it can handle.


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## LRJ

burr740 said:


> No idea. Ive always heard that PH can crash (whatever that means) if KH is zero. That notion is probably overblown. I know several folks running zero KH with good results. Im just aiming for 1 or 2 to still have some, not gonna sweat having zero though.


I was thinking about this again today. It may already be common knowledge for a lot of folks, but it hit me today that a good reason to have at least some KH is to keep the pH in a favorable range for nutrient absorption. In my tank, KH is so low that pH is around 4.3 at peak CO2. 

So I pulled up one of those hydroponic ph nutrient absorption charts this evening and was shocked at the drop off in absorption in the low pH range. Definitely looks like having that low of pH could have negative impacts. 

No idea how the hydroponic chart translates for fully submerged plants. Either way, I'm going to bring my KH up to 1 and see if there are any improvements.


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## OreoP

Joe, have you noticed a drop in the growth rate of the plants as a result of the lower dosing? Somehow I feel that my growth is lower based on the trimming intervals.

You also mention the need for Ni if dosing Urea. Is the amount that we roll in the micros sufficient? Or is additional is required?


----------



## burr740

LRJ said:


> I was thinking about this again today. It may already be common knowledge for a lot of folks, but it hit me today that a good reason to have at least some KH is to keep the pH in a favorable range for nutrient absorption. In my tank, KH is so low that pH is around 4.3 at peak CO2.
> 
> So I pulled up one of those hydroponic ph nutrient absorption charts this evening and was shocked at the drop off in absorption in the low pH range. Definitely looks like having that low of pH could have negative impacts.
> 
> No idea how the hydroponic chart translates for fully submerged plants. Either way, I'm going to bring my KH up to 1 and see if there are any improvements.


I think that is a valid concern, Im also trying to avoid zero now



OreoP said:


> Joe, have you noticed a drop in the growth rate of the plants as a result of the lower dosing? Somehow I feel that my growth is lower based on the trimming intervals.


Growth rates definitely slow down especially with lower NO3. Which may or may not be a bad thing. I'd be all for it as long as the plants grow nice



OreoP said:


> You also mention the need for Ni if dosing Urea. Is the amount that we roll in the micros sufficient? Or is additional is required?


Whats in the micro recipe is plenty, its the main reason why its there. The other reason is it's said to improve Fe utilization but there's not much documentation out there on that


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## burr740

Rotala tulunadensis , dense yellow green oval leaves in clusters, and a red stem. Extremely rare, and slow. Apparently tough to grow but it seems to like things over here, in the sand tanks no less...



















Its about to earn a spot on the main stage, in the big show...


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Growth rates definitely slow down especially with lower NO3. Which may or may not be a bad thing. I'd be all for it as long as the plants grow nice


+1.

Exactly the same. Noticeably slower growth. 

Watching things very carefully for the time being.

If plants continue to do well longer term, and I have to trim a bit less, I'd be pretty darn happy with that.


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## OreoP

Greggz said:


> +1.
> 
> If plants continue to do well longer term, and I have to trim a bit less, I'd be pretty darn happy with that.


Likewise!!


----------



## Saxa Tilly

LRJ said:


> Really interesting stuff. What is the benefit of targeting say 1 or 2 KH as opposed to zero?
> I've been running on pure RODI water with a KH very close to zero for some time. I sometimes wonder whether I should be adding some KH back.


Went cold turkey on forums for a few months. Burr mentioned something he'd posted here earlier in an offline conversation. So here I be. 

LRJ - greetings - the benefit of targeting KH 1 is that you have a soft cushion to pH drop. I (we?) used to worry about low KH being dangerous. Once I tried near-zero KH a year or two ago, I lost that fear. My 180 has been at or near zero for a while now. I am also blasting CO2. I am comfortable enough with it that I dont even have a pH probe in the tank like I used to. 

Both fish and plants are fine. Thriving. pH in the 4s (which is probably where the pH is) is not hurting as far as I can tell. 

So, why low KH? 

I feel like the notion that low KH being generally favorable for plants is held as universal truth, even among the most jaded or skeptical plant folk. 

The whole low KH thing using HCL was pioneered decades ago by the late German Dr. Gerd Kassebeer. I used to read his articles as a kid back in the late 80s in Dupla's magazine, Aquarium Heute. Used to make me cross-eyed with all the chemistry. But he was able to grow Pogostemon (then Eusteralis) stellata using low KH water treated with HCL. No one could grow that plant then. 

Since then, many Europeans have re-embraced this dangerous water chemistry to get an edge up. Particularly the Romanians, who have a distinct aquascaping style. Their method is very successful and needs more attention from us. And 90% of them use PPS Pro or some similar to 2X PPS...along with acid-washed water. 

On a parallel path, two other science-savvy Germans have explored this further - Andreas Solinger and Werner Maicher. They have authored a 23-page manuscript about water hardness, macro ratios, and how it relates to growing difficult plants. Available on Flowgrow forum somewhere, but it is in German and a pain to digest after Google Translate butchers it. They have dismissed Kramer's assertion that Lythraceae need low nitrate to prevent tip necrosis. They now strongly claim (and I concur) that these plants are able (and even thrive) under much higher Nitrogen, provided it is present in low KH water. 

Salinger and Maicher hypothesize that low KH enables better nutrient intake and selectivity. It's reproducible, but no conclusive cause-effect data is available yet. I've casually discussed future experiment designs to take this thought to conclusion. But that's as far as it's come. 

The countless number of people who grow Rotala and Ammannia well in hard water + low nitrate are probably finding a way around KH-induced tip necrosis. As Barr says, it's correlation, not causation. 

The other thing to get to the bottom of is why Lythraceae do so well in ANY kind of water when exclusively root fed. My Osmocote Kill Tank is all the proof I need, but needs to be shown WHY it works so well.


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## Immortal1

As odd as it may sound, @Saxa Tilly s post above is exactly the kind of reading I like at 6:30am with a nice cup of coffee. Thank-you for further explaining a few things regarding KH. 
Would really like to "try" and find / read thru the 23-page manuscript - may have to do a little digging later this morning. 
"My Osmocote Kill Tank is all the proof I need, but needs to be shown WHY it works so well" this is likely another good read for me as I have several plants that simply refuse to grow a nice root system in my Eco Complete, yet the plant right next to the stubborn plant has a health root system. The Eco Complete is 3+ years old and I very rarely use Osmocote - maybe part of my problem.

Interesting that you ph is now down in the 4's. I can understand the ph dropping using the HCL method and possibly the plants adapting to this ph level. A little surprised that the fish adapt so well.


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## nel

The fish we are breeding for years are mostly used to hard tap water, but let's not forget that for example Amazon River can easily get down to pH of 5, sometimes even lower. Same for Congo and other tropical rivers. Actually when my pH went down to 5-5.5 my ropefish started swimming more openly and they seem overally better. Even those new types of bettas, that never saw freedom seem to be doing better in low pH. Of course there are fish that won't do good in low pH, platies, African lakes cichlids etc. 

Wysłane z mojego SM-A750FN przy użyciu Tapatalka


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## SingAlongWithTsing

Immortal1 said:


> As odd as it may sound, @Saxa Tilly s post above is exactly the kind of reading I like at 6:30am with a nice cup of coffee. Thank-you for further explaining a few things regarding KH.
> Would really like to "try" and find / read thru the 23-page manuscript - may have to do a little digging later this morning.
> "My Osmocote Kill Tank is all the proof I need, but needs to be shown WHY it works so well" this is likely another good read for me as I have several plants that simply refuse to grow a nice root system in my Eco Complete, yet the plant right next to the stubborn plant has a health root system. The Eco Complete is 3+ years old and I very rarely use Osmocote - maybe part of my problem.
> 
> Interesting that you ph is now down in the 4's. I can understand the ph dropping using the HCL method and possibly the plants adapting to this ph level. A little surprised that the fish adapt so well.


i think this is the thread:
https://www.flowgrow.de/naehrstoffe/typische-berechnung-ca-mg-verhaltnis-fehlerhaft-t49413.html

article in the thread (it's a pdf):
https://www.flowgrow.de/resources/file/97159

feel free to translate it lol, google gave me a damn head ache


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## Immortal1

Thank-you @SingAlongWithTsing for finding that. Will see if some of my German speaking friends will be willing to help resolve some of the Google translations ;-)


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## LRJ

@Saxa Tilly - thanks for the detailed explanation! Good to see you back around these parts 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## Saxa Tilly

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> i think this is the thread:
> https://www.flowgrow.de/naehrstoffe/typische-berechnung-ca-mg-verhaltnis-fehlerhaft-t49413.html
> 
> article in the thread (it's a pdf):
> https://www.flowgrow.de/resources/file/97159
> 
> feel free to translate it lol, google gave me a damn head ache


Yup. That's it.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Immortal1 said:


> As odd as it may sound, @Saxa Tilly s post above is exactly the kind of reading I like at 6:30am with a nice cup of coffee. Thank-you for further explaining a few things regarding KH.
> Would really like to "try" and find / read thru the 23-page manuscript - may have to do a little digging later this morning.
> "My Osmocote Kill Tank is all the proof I need, but needs to be shown WHY it works so well" this is likely another good read for me as I have several plants that simply refuse to grow a nice root system in my Eco Complete, yet the plant right next to the stubborn plant has a health root system. The Eco Complete is 3+ years old and I very rarely use Osmocote - maybe part of my problem.
> 
> Interesting that you ph is now down in the 4's. I can understand the ph dropping using the HCL method and possibly the plants adapting to this ph level. A little surprised that the fish adapt so well.


There's not much adapting needed for plants. They can go from 6 or 7 to 4.5 without skipping a beat. No issues whatsoever. As for fish, most plant-frank-friendly species can easily handle mid 4s. As for the fish in my tank, they came from water in the high 3s to low 4s in the wild - Cardinals. Tons of Tonina, Syngos, and Eleocharis thrive in that water. 

Eco Complete is virtually inert. Sure, a little better CEC than plant gravel or BDBS. Generally, moving from inert substrate + hard water + high water column dosing to ---> rich substrate + soft water + lower water column dosing will make life easier for both you and the plants. 

My Osmocote Kill Tank (journal over at Barr Report) with its ultra-rich substrate + hard tap water + no water column dosing + moderate to high CO2 is by far the easiest, more reliable, and least work for growing Lythraceae. On the flip side, inert sub + hard water + EI was the most frustrating experience with growing Rotala and Ammannia.


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## Immortal1

Saxa Tilly said:


> There's not much adapting needed for plants. They can go from 6 or 7 to 4.5 without skipping a beat. No issues whatsoever. As for fish, most plant-frank-friendly species can easily handle mid 4s. As for the fish in my tank, they came from water in the high 3s to low 4s in the wild - Cardinals. Tons of Tonina, Syngos, and Eleocharis thrive in that water.
> 
> Eco Complete is virtually inert. Sure, a little better CEC than plant gravel or BDBS. Generally, moving from inert substrate + hard water + high water column dosing to ---> rich substrate + soft water + lower water column dosing will make life easier for both you and the plants.
> 
> My Osmocote Kill Tank (journal over at Barr Report) with its ultra-rich substrate + hard tap water + no water column dosing + moderate to high CO2 is by far the easiest, more reliable, and least work for growing Lythraceae. On the flip side, inert sub + hard water + EI was the most frustrating experience with growing Rotala and Ammannia.


Very interesting info regarding various fish - had no idea they would survive, let alone thrive at pH levels that low.

As for the Eco Complete, I likely will not be changing that any time soon. But, I am doing my best to change the other 2 variables :grin2:
Compared to my dosing levels even as little as 1 year ago, my KNO3 dosing now is less than 1/2 (now 14ppm KNO3 per week) and likely to go lower.
Again, thank-you for sharing all your knowledge here!


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> My Osmocote Kill Tank (journal over at Barr Report) with its ultra-rich substrate + hard tap water + no water column dosing + moderate to high CO2 is by far the easiest, more reliable, and least work for growing Lythraceae. On the flip side, inert sub + hard water + EI was the most frustrating experience with growing Rotala and Ammannia.


Vin good to see you visit here.

With the Osmocote kill tank, Lythraceae did very well. Are there species that did not like it? Ludwigia?
Others?

And do you put all Rotala in the same group? I've found Macranda's to be easy growers in inert + column dosing (low KH), but have trouble with some others. Ammannia and I have not been on good terms ever. 

And are you ever going to go Dutch again? And if you are, what would be the plan?


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> Vin good to see you visit here.
> 
> With the Osmocote kill tank, Lythraceae did very well. Are there species that did not like it? Ludwigia?
> Others?
> 
> And do you put all Rotala in the same group? I've found Macranda's to be easy growers in inert + column dosing (low KH), but have trouble with some others. Ammannia and I have not been on good terms ever.
> 
> And are you ever going to go Dutch again? And if you are, what would be the plan?


Hey Gregg - I've got Ludwigia in the Osmocote tank - glandulosa (peruensis), polycarpa, repens x simpsonii, and uh...I'm forgetting some....oh, sphaerocarpa and ex lacustris. They are all doing really well. 

I can't think of any plant that suffers in that tank. Especially if the roots get into the bottom layers. 

All Rotala groups seem to be doing fine. I have a few mexicana types, a couple of macrandra types, a few of the wispy wallichii types. What I dont have atm is ramosior/sunset types. As far as Ammannia, I have gracilis, senegalensis, crassicaulis, latifolia, and capitellata. They are all doing OK as well. 

I am not ready to do a full rules-compliant Dutch. May never be...because of the time it takes to do it right in a 180 gal tank. It will literally take me an average of an hour a day if I am serious about having it look good enough to compete in the next AGA Dutch contest. The work that goes into a Dutch tank is never ending. But! I am reducing the number of species in my big ex-Dutch tank from 30-40 species down to about 20. That should make it more Dutch-y. I was also using that tank to hold rare plants. Sort of a depository. About half the plants in there are super rare - only a handful of people have those plants. If/when the plants are adequately spread around the hobby and established, I feel comfortable to let go of a species. Otherwise, there is pressure to hang on to rare plants until several others have it.


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> I am not ready to do a full rules-compliant Dutch. May never be...because of the time it takes to do it right in a 180 gal tank. It will literally take me an average of an hour a day if I am serious about having it look good enough to compete in the next AGA Dutch contest. The work that goes into a Dutch tank is never ending. But! I am reducing the number of species in my big ex-Dutch tank from 30-40 species down to about 20. That should make it more Dutch-y. I was also using that tank to hold rare plants. Sort of a depository. About half the plants in there are super rare - only a handful of people have those plants. If/when the plants are adequately spread around the hobby and established, I feel comfortable to let go of a species. Otherwise, there is pressure to hang on to rare plants until several others have it.


I completely get the hesitation going full Dutch. I've also reduced the number of species I keep, and am a little more "Dutch like" I guess. 

I've watched Joe agonize over the smallest details the past couple of years, and have seen what goes into creating an AGA worthy Dutch. I hope folks realize the tremendous effort that takes, as it quite an undertaking. Besides the meticulous placement, getting every plant peaking at the right size is a feat in itself.

Looking forward to seeing what the 180G becomes.


----------



## hbosman

It would be too much work for me. It's easier to look at the fish when your hands aren't in the tank. ;-)
I'm glad folks do go through the effort though. I enjoy the photos and their efforts teaches me a lot about the basics of keeping a planted tank.


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> Vin good to see you visit here.
> 
> With the Osmocote kill tank, Lythraceae did very well. Are there species that did not like it? Ludwigia?
> Others?
> 
> And do you put all Rotala in the same group? I've found Macranda's to be easy growers in inert + column dosing (low KH), but have trouble with some others. Ammannia and I have not been on good terms ever.
> 
> And are you ever going to go Dutch again? And if you are, what would be the plan?


Pardon me for temporarily hijacking Burr's thread - should have included these images with my earlier response to Gregg. I feel like bold claims need to be accompanied by some pictorial proof. Here be pics from the Osmocote tank this morning. 

It's the only tank where I can grow Cuphea utriculosa (Red Cross) without effort. Tonina grows well in hard tap water and I get little or no stunting from Ammannia pedicellata, which is virtually impossible in any of my other tanks. 

It's an ugly tank, no doubt. And it has some algae (the kind that never attached to plants, probably because the plants are healthy), but this is by far the easiest high tech tank I have ever set up. I'm trying to knock the tank off balance to see what I learn (and share) for the AGA talk next month. I'm trying to stunt some plants by gradually increasing light and/or ferts. I want to see how to knock it off balance. Some of the tulunadensis and wallichii (may be 5-10%) of the stems are starting to stunt. There was near-zero stunting when the water column was Fert free.


----------



## Greggz

Saxa Tilly said:


> Pardon me for temporarily hijacking Burr's thread - should have included these images with my earlier response to Gregg. I feel like bold claims need to be accompanied by some pictorial proof. Here be pics from the Osmocote tank this morning.
> 
> It's the only tank where I can grow Cuphea utriculosa (Red Cross) without effort. Tonina grows well in hard tap water and I get little or no stunting from Ammannia pedicellata, which is virtually impossible in any of my other tanks.
> 
> It's an ugly tank, no doubt. And it has some algae (the kind that never attached to plants, probably because the plants are healthy), but this is by far the easiest high tech tank I have ever set up. I'm trying to knock the tank off balance to see what I learn (and share) for the AGA talk next month. I'm trying to stunt some plants by gradually increasing light and/or ferts. I want to see how to knock it off balance. Some of the tulunadensis and wallichii (may be 5-10%) of the stems are starting to stunt. There was near-zero stunting when the water column was Fert free.


Vin I am sure Joe does not mind the hijacking at all. Anything for the benefit of the hobby is fair game.

Seeing the pics is interesting. I've had little success with Cuphea, Ammania, or Wallichi. However, I have pretty much completely changed my dosing, so might need to try again. Hope springs eternal.

I am guessing most people visiting here do not understand this tank, but in general it's root tabs on steroids. Basically a very rich substrate, loaded to a level most would never consider trying. Then left to fend for itself. An experiment in root vs. column dosing. I hope I am summarizing that in decent general terms.

I admire your spirit of exploration. One question I have is do you think this is sustainable? Over a period of years? Or is it like aquasoil, where once the substrate is depleted, things change. What happens then?


----------



## vvDO

Saxa Tilly said:


> Pardon me for temporarily hijacking Burr's thread - should have included these images with my earlier response to Gregg. I feel like bold claims need to be accompanied by some pictorial proof. Here be pics from the Osmocote tank this morning.



I would love to see a water test to see what level of ferts are actually in the water column i.e. leeching from substrate.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## gjcarew

Saxa Tilly said:


> Pardon me for temporarily hijacking Burr's thread - should have included these images with my earlier response to Gregg. I feel like bold claims need to be accompanied by some pictorial proof. Here be pics from the Osmocote tank this morning.
> 
> It's the only tank where I can grow Cuphea utriculosa (Red Cross) without effort. Tonina grows well in hard tap water and I get little or no stunting from Ammannia pedicellata, which is virtually impossible in any of my other tanks.
> 
> It's an ugly tank, no doubt. And it has some algae (the kind that never attached to plants, probably because the plants are healthy), but this is by far the easiest high tech tank I have ever set up. I'm trying to knock the tank off balance to see what I learn (and share) for the AGA talk next month. I'm trying to stunt some plants by gradually increasing light and/or ferts. I want to see how to knock it off balance. Some of the tulunadensis and wallichii (may be 5-10%) of the stems are starting to stunt. There was near-zero stunting when the water column was Fert free.


I'm excited to see your talk next month! I've loved reading about the rotala kill tanks and now use a super enriched substrate because of it. 

It's interesting seeing Burr reducing the water column dosing as well, the quantity of ferts some people put in their tanks around here sometimes seems outrageous to me! I guess it shows that you can grow plants in any number of conditions as long as you find the right balance. 

Since you seem to be the guy to ask about substrate, what do you think about crushed coral instead of dolomite as a substrate additive? I threw away my last bag of dolomite since there's no way I'm using 50 lbs of it, and I can buy crushed coral in much more reasonable quantities.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


----------



## Saxa Tilly

Greggz said:


> Vin I am sure Joe does not mind the hijacking at all. Anything for the benefit of the hobby is fair game.
> 
> Seeing the pics is interesting. I've had little success with Cuphea, Ammania, or Wallichi. However, I have pretty much completely changed my dosing, so might need to try again. Hope springs eternal.
> 
> I am guessing most people visiting here do not understand this tank, but in general it's root tabs on steroids. Basically a very rich substrate, loaded to a level most would never consider trying. Then left to fend for itself. An experiment in root vs. column dosing. I hope I am summarizing that in decent general terms.
> 
> I admire your spirit of exploration. One question I have is do you think this is sustainable? Over a period of years? Or is it like aquasoil, where once the substrate is depleted, things change. What happens then?


Gregg - I do not think it can last more than 2 years. It's been a year almost and you can see how things are going now. 

But I suspect that in another 6 months, I'll start seeing a slowdown in growth, followed by algae. That'll be my hint to start anew. 

Re-doing the tank should not be difficult. If I am organized, I should be able to yank out all plants, toss substrate, clean tank, add new substrate, water, and re-plant in 3-4 hours. Half a day max. Then I'm good to go for another year or two. 

Chances are (instead of turning it to 11), I'll just go with MTS topped with BDBS. Keep it simple now that I've proven a point to myself.

Bump:


vvDO said:


> I would love to see a water test to see what level of ferts are actually in the water column i.e. leeching from substrate.


Funny you should say that - I am in the process of getting it tested using ICP-MS. 

I suspect there is some leaching, but not a lot.

Bump:


gjcarew said:


> I'm excited to see your talk next month! I've loved reading about the rotala kill tanks and now use a super enriched substrate because of it.
> 
> It's interesting seeing Burr reducing the water column dosing as well, the quantity of ferts some people put in their tanks around here sometimes seems outrageous to me! I guess it shows that you can grow plants in any number of conditions as long as you find the right balance.
> 
> Since you seem to be the guy to ask about substrate, what do you think about crushed coral instead of dolomite as a substrate additive? I threw away my last bag of dolomite since there's no way I'm using 50 lbs of it, and I can buy crushed coral in much more reasonable quantities.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Yes, look forward to meeting you (and others.) Come say hello at the AGA. 

I sprinkled a little Dolomite to the bottom of the substrate, mostly to keep it from going too acidic. If you add crushed coral, you will likely be using a LOT. And that is setting yourself up for constantly creeping KH. A little (may be a small mesh bag) crushed coral in a new Aquasoil based tank is fine - this may even help offset gradually dropping KH in Aquasoil tanks. But HOW MUCH is key. Just enough to maintain KH (if that's important to you) is fine. But a substrate with a lot of crushed coral has more disadvantages than advantages. I'd pass on it. Use that substrate space to add something with nutrients in it.


----------



## burr740

Good stuff on the last page. Im glad Vin decided that he wasnt too good for forums after all. :red_mouth

The thing about these Buces, they dont spread across the wall. They grow out towards the front. They'd become like 7-8" deep.










I pinched off about 20 big hunks










And you cant even tell really


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## Phil Edwards

That's one of the main reasons I prefer A. nana 'Petite' for back walls. Buces earn more money though. 

Bump:


Saxa Tilly said:


> Funny you should say that - I am in the process of getting it tested using ICP-MS.
> 
> I suspect there is some leaching, but not a lot.


Vin, do you have a way to separate out how much the plants may be taking from the water column? I'd be really curious to see what the results would be like if that could be sussed out. Also, have you considered removing a bunch of mulm and having that tested as well? I'd be quite surprised if the organic material in the substrate isn't a nutrient sink of sorts too. Even with fairly enriched soil, an inch cap of 2-3mm quartz sand created an effective barrier to nutrient leaching in my thesis study too. I'm looking forward to seeing your results!


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## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> That's one of the main reasons I prefer A. nana 'Petite' for back walls. Buces earn more money though.


I cant keep algae off anubias that close to the light, do good to keep it off down low. But I like the color Buces bring to the table better anyway.


----------



## EdWiser

That is some crazy growth on the Buce


----------



## Maryland Guppy

@burr740 reminder of you today. Seen another pic of your tank in the "Gardener"

And @Phil Edwards glad to see you posting again!
You are in charge of "Clippings"?
@Saxa Tilly nice write up but I'll never have a dutch tank.
Too many rules for a chaotic mindset like my own.
Not to mention way too many species of plants.
But I do like a big red jungle! >


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## SpringHalo

burr740 said:


>


Hey Burr, what camera do you use for these shots? Do you do any post-processing? 

I've found that having a purple-pink-red hue really increases the saturation on things, but it really has to be the only lighting in the room to not look over-pinked. In the picture there it looks like the pink from your light on the right, then some other light on the left, what color temp is the left one? Is your tank near a window or other outside light normally?

I know your light is pink, but I really want to somehow quantify _how_ pink.

Cheers,
Spring


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## Saxa Tilly

burr740 said:


> Good stuff on the last page. Im glad Vin decided that he wasnt too good for forums after all. :red_mouth


What are you talking about? I **AM** too good for forums. ;-)

Bump:


Phil Edwards said:


> That's one of the main reasons I prefer A. nana 'Petite' for back walls. Buces earn more money though.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Vin, do you have a way to separate out how much the plants may be taking from the water column? I'd be really curious to see what the results would be like if that could be sussed out. Also, have you considered removing a bunch of mulm and having that tested as well? I'd be quite surprised if the organic material in the substrate isn't a nutrient sink of sorts too. Even with fairly enriched soil, an inch cap of 2-3mm quartz sand created an effective barrier to nutrient leaching in my thesis study too. I'm looking forward to seeing your results!


Hey Phil, I'm starting to get an idea on NO3 uptake in my tank. It's not as high as I thought. I was expecting about 3 ppm per day, but it's looking like closer to 1 ppm per day. If that. Obviously, less for P and K. Don't have a way to gauge Fe and trace usage yet. 

CO2 is very high. Light is moderate to high. I haven't measured in a while, but probably 100-150 or so at substrate. 

But before I dig my heels in, I need to test it a few more times. 

No, I am far from testing mulm. Want to get a handle on what's being sucked out of the water when everything is non-limiting. 

If you've been following my Osmocote tank...after 8 months of set up and amazing plant growth, and no water column dosing at all, ICP was unable to detect ANY nitrate in the water. Yet, the tank has the best and most effortless plant growth I've ever seen. I was assuming there was some leaching into the water. And there may have been more of that earlier. But 8 months after set up, there is no NO3 in the water. 

PS: wish you were coming to AGA.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Saxa Tilly said:


> If you've been following my Osmocote tank...after 8 months of set up and amazing plant growth, and no water column dosing at all, ICP was unable to detect ANY nitrate in the water. Yet, the tank has the best and most effortless plant growth I've ever seen. I was assuming there was some leaching into the water. And there may have been more of that earlier. But 8 months after set up, there is no NO3 in the water.
> 
> PS: wish you were coming to AGA.


That's pretty much what I found with my study too and I spiked some raw, super rich, soil pretty heavily in one of the treatments. There was an initial "first flush" but a full water change (5 gallon buckets with a supply pond for water) at 3 weeks everything was good. I haven't seen your Osmocote thread, would you please link it? If you're using a soil-based substrate like Amazonia or MTS, I'd fully expect leaching to be minimal as long as the substrate's thick enough. I've decided to keep water column supplementation to a minimum and go with root ferts in the current incarnation of my tank. I'd love it if you'd hop over there and keep an eye on it/contribute so we don't have to make a mess of Joe's thread.  

I wish I was going to be there too. Seattle's my hometown and it would be good to see my family out there as well as my AGA family. I promise I wouldn't space out on you in the elevator like I did last time. :frown2: Oh yeah, you're doing something there too, right? What is it, one of the short lighting talks between the real presentations?


----------



## burr740

Syns and tonina have perked up in the lower KH





















SpringHalo said:


> Hey Burr, what camera do you use for these shots? Do you do any post-processing?
> 
> I've found that having a purple-pink-red hue really increases the saturation on things, but it really has to be the only lighting in the room to not look over-pinked. In the picture there it looks like the pink from your light on the right, then some other light on the left, what color temp is the left one? Is your tank near a window or other outside light normally?
> 
> I know your light is pink, but I really want to somehow quantify _how_ pink.
> 
> Cheers,
> Spring


Thanks! The camera is a Samsung phone, usually adjust the brightness a little. The buces in the pic are getting over spill from two lights about like my avatar pic.


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## Immortal1

Curious @burr740, when you say "Syns and tonina have perked up in the lower KH" how low are you now and what level were you at? I was thinking you were in the 3-4 range before you started.
I ask only because my tank seems to be doing better going from about 8dKH to 3dKH.


----------



## burr740

It was 5.5-6 before, around 1 now

2 foot L rubin behind 18" senegalensis


----------



## burr740

Bristle nose plecos dont eat plants?










Happened literally overnight.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> Bristle nose plecos dont eat plants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happened literally overnight.


I would flush'em and see how they handle the septic tank! :grin2:
That is some serious damage, are they a new addition? :|
Cringe looking at those leaves.:frown2:

Wait, no way phish damage, add some more Mg to your macro solution! >


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## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Bristle nose plecos dont eat plants?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Happened literally overnight.



I don’t have any and many of my plants look eaten too... that definitely looks like pleco. I had one eat an entire sword.

First saw my penthorum, then limnophila rugosa, and now Myrio Guyana. Before all this had a nice bunch of myrio guyana and literally overnight had only a few small stems left, very few pieces floating around... though I had messed up ferts... now I’m thinking someone was hungry. I was able to grow some myrio back only to lose about half of it again overnight... need to set up a camera!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> I would flush'em and see how they handle the septic tank! :grin2:
> That is some serious damage, are they a new addition? :|


He's been there from the start, only fish in there currently.

I had a school of Tiger barbs in one of my first plant tanks. They were fine for about a year. Then all of a sudden developed a taste for bacopa and stripped 30 stems bare in less than a week.

Had SAE do the same thing, be fine for a while then suddenly go on a rampage.


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## Maryland Guppy

I can only say I'm happy with my humble choices on phish!

As to your situation I'm not sure from which floor of the house.
Upstairs straight flow out, downstairs has ejector pump.
Nevermind, straight flow it is!


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## ipkiss




----------



## Grobbins48

Maryland Guppy;11204321
Wait said:


> Haha!


----------



## OreoP

burr740 said:


> He's been there from the start, only fish in there currently.
> 
> I had a school of Tiger barbs in one of my first plant tanks. They were fine for about a year. Then all of a sudden developed a taste for bacopa and stripped 30 stems bare in less than a week.
> 
> Had SAE do the same thing, be fine for a while then suddenly go on a rampage.


Joe, about time you dived into the world of Rainbows!! :grin2: All they munch on is fish food!! And I am sure they will look stunning in your tanks


----------



## burr740

OreoP said:


> Joe, about time you dived into the world of Rainbows!! :grin2: All they munch on is fish food!! And I am sure they will look stunning in your tanks


Way too big, their size would throw the scale off. I'll stick to enjoying Rainbow pics and vids from other folks


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## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Way too big, their size would throw the scale off. I'll stick to enjoying Rainbow pics and vids from other folks


Actually Joe, 6 of these would look great in your tank and at about 2" fully grown likely would fit your proportions very well >


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## ipkiss

Immortal1 said:


> Actually Joe, 6 of these would look great in your tank and at about 2" fully grown likely would fit your proportions very well >


so can we expect your journal to be filled with or a new thread from you soon about your attempts to breed your sets and then the subsequent attempts to sell them to us? >


----------



## Immortal1

ipkiss said:


> so can we expect your journal to be filled with or a new thread from you soon about your attempts to breed your sets and then the subsequent attempts to sell them to us? >


I don't know about that , lol. My parenting days are long past.
Would be a cool experiment though. Right now they are in the 20g low tech tank.... I guess the first thing would be to figure out if I got all boys? or if a few girls tagged along.


----------



## Quagulator

Immortal1 said:


> 6 of these would look great in your tank




NEED! :grin2:


----------



## Immortal1

Quagulator said:


> NEED! :grin2:






 after about 8 hours in the tank. Bet they color up *alot* more after a few months :grin2:


----------



## KayakJimW

Immortal1 said:


> This is them after about 8 hours in the tank. Bet they color up *alot* more after a few months :grin2:


Very cool! Do you know which geographic variant(s) you have there? It's amazing how different the same species can look from creek to creek


----------



## Immortal1

KayakJimW said:


> Very cool! Do you know which geographic variant(s) you have there? It's amazing how different the same species can look from creek to creek


The bag says "Seary's Creek". Google would seem to confirm this.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

was thinking of getting a bn pleco to help with my gda, guess I'll just stick to otos lol or maybe try hill stream loaches or something


----------



## vvDO

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> was thinking of getting a bn pleco to help with my gda, guess I'll just stick to otos lol or maybe try hill stream loaches or something




Otos worked well for me for gda, no help with gsa. Nerites keep my glass spotless no gsa since... only needed 2 for a 40B, but you may have to deal eggs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Nothing much to update so here's a few pics

Ludwigia polycarpa










Hygrophila balsamica


















Monster L rubin



















Ludwigia senegalensis


----------



## burr740

I like this Proserpinaca palustris "Maryland'. Its like some Myrio and the regular version had a baby, not too weedy either.










Gonna try to use balsamica in back somewhere, pretty cool plant. Its just growing out right here


----------



## Immortal1

@burr740 - really like the coloring you are getting with the Ludwigia polycarpa - hoping mine gets close to that. And of course, I am always a sucker for the brick red of the Rubens.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Polycarpa is a real keeper IMHO.
Wait it out and the tops will be red like peruensis!

I think balsamica is toxic in emersed form, all cultures I've seen for sale @ LFS were already transitioned to submerged growth.
Think your "Dutch" buddy Bart? had a lot of this in a tank he entered.

Awesome looking plants Joe!
If you're lacking for update materials just post some plant pics for all to enjoy. :grin2:
You could be like @Greggz and always post Phish? >


----------



## LRJ

Hygrophila balsamica - Nice! Hope that eventually ends up on your for sale threads.


----------



## burr740




----------



## AgMa

Hi burr,
What's your current bulb combo in both tanks?
I saw a white bulb (6500k)?


----------



## DMtankd

Hi burr - haven't been keeping up on the forums but saw you are experimenting with lower kh? Curious what your current Fe/micro dosing is and if you've seen a difference in the levels required? N, P, and K too I guess.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Are you adding Potassium? If so, how many mg/L and how often?


----------



## burr740

Hey Guys, sorry for the late replies. Life comes at you fast sometimes...



AgMa said:


> Hi burr,
> What's your current bulb combo in both tanks?
> I saw a white bulb (6500k)?


In all the smaller tanks is one 6500K and one flora type. The tanks with 4 bulbs have combos consisting of - 3000K, Powerveg 633/660, ATI purp, 420 actinic, floras, and yeah the farm 75 has one 6500K. The main tank doesnt



DMtankd said:


> Hi burr - haven't been keeping up on the forums but saw you are experimenting with lower kh? Curious what your current Fe/micro dosing is and if you've seen a difference in the levels required? N, P, and K too I guess.


I havent noticed a difference in any requirements since lowering KH really. Doesnt mean there arent any. All I can say is everything in general seems to like the lower KH

Current micros, 3x week
Fe - .15
Mn - .038
B - .047
Zn - .036
Cu - .0025
Mo - .0013
Ni - .0005

Macros, 3x week:
3 ppm KNO3
1.4 ppm PO4
3 ppm K
.4 N from urea

This equals roughly 15 ppm per week of NO3 and K

10 ppm Mg with water changes (~4-5 in the tap) Ca ~ 40 ppm in the tap

KH 0-1 acid washed down from about 6



Phil Edwards said:


> Are you adding Potassium? If so, how many mg/L and how often?


Hi Phil. See above 

Here's some pics

Ammannia pedicellata










Rotala tunuladensis. This is one of the rarest Rotalas in the hobby. Growing pretty nice lately


----------



## Greggz

Hey Joe those are some really great looking plant pics. You always have had a knack for getting the best out of so many species.

How long have you been at 15ppm NO3 weekly? 

Going lower? Or do you feel you are near the bottom?


----------



## Hendy8888

burr740 said:


> Rotala tunuladensis. This is one of the rarest Rotalas in the hobby. Growing pretty nice lately


Hopefully it becomes a little less rare, that's a great looking plant. Also that Pantanal photo is sweet!


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Sahyadrica kind of like a twin to tulunadensis is the harder one to grow.
Tulunadensis can handle a lot of abuse too and recover well.

This plant is hard to find and I don't think commercially available yet.
It ships poorly IMO, even 2 days USPS it shows some decline.
Very soft leaved rotala.

Joe, did you get yours from Vin?
Think Vin shipped some to Phil when he re-started his tank.


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Hi Phil. See above


Thanks! Those plants are looking awesome. 



Maryland Guppy said:


> Think Vin shipped some to Phil when he re-started his tank.


Yeah, I've got a couple stems hanging around. It's a terrible shipper and is still trying to find it's happy place in my tank.


----------



## burr740

Maryland Guppy said:


> Sahyadrica kind of like a twin to tulunadensis is the harder one to grow.
> Tulunadensis can handle a lot of abuse too and recover well.
> 
> This plant is hard to find and I don't think commercially available yet.
> It ships poorly IMO, even 2 days USPS it shows some decline.
> Very soft leaved rotala.
> 
> Joe, did you get yours from Vin?
> Think Vin shipped some to Phil when he re-started his tank.


Yeah this is from Vin. Ive had it 3-4 months. 



Greggz said:


> Hey Joe those are some really great looking plant pics. You always have had a knack for getting the best out of so many species.
> 
> How long have you been at 15ppm NO3 weekly?
> 
> Going lower? Or do you feel you are near the bottom?


5-6 weeks now. Before that I was at 18 for a couple months, maybe longer. I havent noticed any difference going down to 15 

Will I go any lower? Probably not. Maybe. Who knows! LOL

No immediate plants to reduce it again though


----------



## Discusluv

I just had to tell you, after looking at the list of plants you just put up for sale, the _Cabomba furcata_ has to be the most spectacular plant I have seen on this forum. :surprise:

I know my low tech tank would quickly kill it- but, whoever gets those plants from you should be very, very happy. :smile2:
Kudos! Your plants are amazing.


----------



## Desert Pupfish

Discusluv said:


> I just had to tell you, after looking at the list of plants you just put up for sale, the _Cabomba furcata_ has to be the most spectacular plant I have seen on this forum. :surprise:
> 
> I know my low tech tank would quickly kill it- but, whoever gets those plants from you should be very, very happy. :smile2:
> Kudos! Your plants are amazing.


Stunning plant indeed. There's a Cabomba Palaeformis that tolerates a broader range of hardness and is supposed to be much easier to grow. Comes in green, or the reddish version is commonly called "purple" in English, or "red-brown" in German. I tried to source this for my tank, but the only place that had it--plantedaquariumscentral.com--was always out. 

Anybody have any experience with this plant?


----------



## Quagulator

Desert Pupfish said:


> Stunning plant indeed.
> Anybody have any experience with this plant?


It's my next most favourite Cabomba right next to furcata. When you get it happy, it grows extremely fast, let it get too thick and it will throw out nodal roots above the substrate. Even low tech it will have a purple colour to it. This WAS mine high tech:


----------



## Desert Pupfish

Quagulator said:


> It's my next most favourite Cabomba right next to furcata. When you get it happy, it grows extremely fast, let it get too thick and it will throw out nodal roots above the substrate. Even low tech it will have a purple colour to it. This WAS mine high tech:


Gorgeous! 

Can I ask what kind of water you had it in, and where you sourced it?


----------



## Quagulator

Desert Pupfish said:


> Gorgeous!
> 
> Can I ask what kind of water you had it in, and where you sourced it?


kH - 1
gH - 30ppm Ca 15ppm Mg
pH - 7.2 dropping to 6.0 from CO2

NO3 - 20ppm
PO4 - 5ppm
K - 20 - 30ppm

Burr's custom micros at 0.15ppm Fe 4x weekly and 3x weekly.

50% weekly water change, 110 ish PAR for 7 hours / day. 

Also kept it in kH 15, gH 8, pH 8.2, no CO2, PPS-Pro ferts... no issues. Obviously not as purple / as fast of a grower as high tech.. But it grew well and did still have purple to it.


----------



## Desert Pupfish

Quagulator said:


> Also kept it in kH 15, gH 8, pH 8.2, no CO2, PPS-Pro ferts... no issues. Obviously not as purple / as fast of a grower as high tech.. But it grew well and did still have purple to it.


Thanks, this is good to know. I've trying to do low tech (but medium light) in hard water, and am trying find red/purple plants that will do well & still show some color.

Where were you able to locate Cabomba palaeformis? Haven't been able to find it in stock anyplace online.


----------



## Quagulator

Desert Pupfish said:


> Thanks, this is good to know. I've trying to do low tech (but medium light) in hard water, and am trying find red/purple plants that will do well & still show some color.
> 
> Where were you able to locate Cabomba palaeformis? Haven't been able to find it in stock anyplace online.


I got it from John @Theplaynyguy.ca but I'm in the great white north and you are in the sunshine state, so that won't work for you


----------



## ipkiss

burr740 said:


> I like this Proserpinaca palustris "Maryland'. Its like some Myrio and the regular version had a baby, not too weedy either.


Lol. and I remember beating myself up for not being able to growing the "regular" version into something like this!!


----------



## burr740

Get ready @Greggz; Hygrophila balsamica. All these are side shoots coming off 2 main stems which are about the diameter of a sharpie. Tops around 4" wide Pretty cool plant, extremely rare in the US right now.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Get ready @Greggz; Hygrophila balsamica. All these are side shoots coming off 2 main stems which are about the diameter of a sharpie. Tops around 4" wide Pretty cool plant, extremely rare in the US right now.


Interesting Joe. I wasn't sure how it propagates. 

Good looking plant with great color and interesting leaf shape. 

Hopefully it does well. So far so good.


----------



## burr740

Apparently these Powerveg bulbs loose a lot of par over time. Ive had these what, a year and a half, close to 2 maybe? (not that that's a short time in T5 world) But check this out

Last week I'd checked Par in the dutch and it was about 80. wtf? Its supposed to be around 100. I assumed it was the old 3000K, probably 3 years old and normally a beast. Found the Plantmax brand that I wanted on at bulbs.com and they just happened to have the PVs. 

So I decided to grab another 633 to replace a 660 in the farm tank, which I dont like with only 4 bulbs, too neony.

Well the new 3000K raised PAR about 5 points. Those things hold up VERY well.

Swapping out the PV 633 raised it....20!! And that was after a 1 hour warm up with a brand new bulb, hasnt even 'burned in' yet.

It must've gone down in a hurry over the last 6 months or so, because it was still around 100 then.

So Gregg you might wanna keep an eye on that 660...


----------



## ipkiss

Built in "algae reduction" feature.


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> Apparently these Powerveg bulbs loose a lot of par over time. Ive had these what, a year and a half, close to 2 maybe? (not that that's a short time in T5 world) But check this out
> 
> Last week I'd checked Par in the dutch and it was about 80. wtf? Its supposed to be around 100. I assumed it was the old 3000K, probably 3 years old and normally a beast. Found the Plantmax brand that I wanted on at bulbs.com and they just happened to have the PVs.
> 
> So I decided to grab another 633 to replace a 660 in the farm tank, which I dont like with only 4 bulbs, too neony.
> 
> Well the new 3000K raised PAR about 5 points. Those things hold up VERY well.
> 
> Swapping out the PV 633 raised it....20!! And that was after a 1 hour warm up with a brand new bulb, hasnt even 'burned in' yet.
> 
> It must've gone down in a hurry over the last 6 months or so, because it was still around 100 then.
> 
> So Gregg you might wanna keep an eye on that 660...


have you considered trying out a t5ho retrofit for the 660?

https://www.harrisseeds.com/products/41696-4-active-grow-red-bloom-spectrum-t5-ho-led-hort-tubes

there's probably a cheaper one on amazon

probably blasphemous in here lol


----------



## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> have you considered trying out a t5ho retrofit for the 660?
> 
> https://www.harrisseeds.com/products/41696-4-active-grow-red-bloom-spectrum-t5-ho-led-hort-tubes
> 
> there's probably a cheaper one on amazon
> 
> probably blasphemous in here lol


Yeah those are intriguing, probably where we're all headed sooner or later. For me it'd all come down to color rendition, how the plants looked.


Somebody just needs to drop 50$ and check one out...


----------



## Ben Belton

Would be interesting to get one of the wide spectrum and the red bloom ones. Gets a bit pricey though.


----------



## AboveBeyond

How are you guys measuring pH? Ph meter/pen? I'm realizing drop checker is not the most reliable way to measure c02. Thanks.


----------



## burr740

AboveBeyond said:


> How are you guys measuring pH? Ph meter/pen? I'm realizing drop checker is not the most reliable way to measure c02. Thanks.


Yeah a digital ph pen, 20$-25$ off amazon is what I use. Just follow the instructions on storage and cleaning, and be sure to calibrate it often. You'll need to buy some calibration fluid/mixture as well. I use the little packets of powder and mix with distilled water.

Some hold up better than others. I find they usually last about a year or two before needing replaced. 

American Marine makes a better one for about $100


----------



## AboveBeyond

Thanks Joe.

I'm trying to increase my circulation after reading on how you arranged your flow. Can you assess if the flow in my tank is okay? Is it too much? The Rotalas are swaying a bit. 

I got a Hydor Koralia Nano 240 pump in a standard 50g tank:






The "side view" should read "front of the tank view" in the diagram.

UPDATE: After abserving the Koralia for few days, I had to shut it off due dead spots. The Ludwigia right next to it appears to be starving of co2. The new leaves were all curling. Back to square one...


----------



## burr740

@AboveBeyond personally I'd ditch the spray bar and just run the open ended tube. Put it in the back corner, aimed at the front glass about 1/3 of the way across. The flow will hit the glass and drive downward, mostly going to the right but some will disperse back to the left. 

This will help get the CO2 rich water down low in better contact with everything. And probably eliminate dead spots. You'll just have to play with the angle a little bit, as in where exactly to aim it along the front glass. Keep the powerhead where its at.


----------



## burr740

Well it turns out HCL can kill more than KH. It can also kill Dutch dreams. :nerd:

So far Ive been adding it straight into the tanks, undiluted. As long as I pour it directly into the current from the filter outflows everything is fine. In the farm 75 I have a Koralia 425 that I turn on just for this.

However, if I ever miss the center of the current stream the HCL just settles to the bottom, or wherever the side currents take it. You can see it travel due to the difference in opacity from water.

Ive burned up several plant groups being careless over the past couple of months. Melted an entire 12x6" wall of Buce mini coin in one tank, wiped out purple stauro in another, and several odd plants here and there along the way. Usually I dont notice until 3-4 days later when the plants start to melt. And melt they do! Completely.

Anywhoo, the latest casualty was about 3 weeks ago when I burned up 2/3 of the Blyxa novo in the Dutch tank. It's the lone specimen plant in a main focal point. Probably lost 75-100 leaves and what's left is pale and covered in fuzz algae. The contest deadline is next Sun the 15th.

Sigh...










Fortunately I have a couple of back up plans although Im not too crazy about any of them. So wish me luck...

Anything less than 'Best in Show' will be a disappointment! :bounce:


Edit: Oh and btw Im now adding the HCL to a 1 gal bucket of water first to dilute it before adding it to the tanks.


----------



## jercarr2018

A couple months back you made a post on Facebook I think or maybe I saw it in this thread, it was a bunch of staurogyne purple that got eaten up. You blamed it on bristlenose plecos. Do you think it was the HCL or is it still attributed to the plecos?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Maryland Guppy

burr740 said:


> So far Ive been adding it straight into the tanks, undiluted. As long as I pour it directly into the current from the filter outflows everything is fine.


Seems my corner filter is a blessed thing, I dump everything in there! :grin2:


----------



## burr740

jercarr2018 said:


> A couple months back you made a post on Facebook I think or maybe I saw it in this thread, it was a bunch of staurogyne purple that got eaten up. You blamed it on bristlenose plecos. Do you think it was the HCL or is it still attributed to the plecos?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No that was absolutely the BN pleco. Dont think I was even using HCL when that happened. Either way HCL melts plants. The tissue left on those was still strong and healthy. They were just chewed down to the nubs.

But a couple months later after it'd came back real nice, I did melt that same group with HCL. Its the purple I mentioned above. lol


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> Well it turns out HCL can kill more than KH. It can also kill Dutch dreams. :nerd:
> 
> 
> 
> So far Ive been adding it straight into the tanks, undiluted. As long as I pour it directly into the current from the filter outflows everything is fine. In the farm 75 I have a Koralia 425 that I turn on just for this.
> 
> 
> 
> However, if I ever miss the center of the current stream the HCL just settles to the bottom, or wherever the side currents take it. You can see it travel due to the difference in opacity from water.
> 
> 
> 
> Ive burned up several plant groups being careless over the past couple of months. Melted an entire 12x6" wall of Buce mini coin in one tank, wiped out purple stauro in another, and several odd plants here and there along the way. Usually I dont notice until 3-4 days later when the plants start to melt. And melt they do! Completely.
> 
> 
> 
> Anywhoo, the latest casualty was about 3 weeks ago when I burned up 2/3 of the Blyxa novo in the Dutch tank. It's the lone specimen plant in a main focal point. Probably lost 75-100 leaves and what's left is pale and covered in fuzz algae. The contest deadline is next Sun the 15th.
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fortunately I have a couple of back up plans although Im not too crazy about any of them. So wish me luck...
> 
> 
> 
> Anything less than 'Best in Show' will be a disappointment! :bounce:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: Oh and btw Im now adding the HCL to a 1 gal bucket of water first to dilute it before adding it to the tanks.




Oooh... that stinks... 

I have drop by drop by syringe with a 3.5 inch needle attached, added it to the tank and spread it out over a large surface area and did not have any issues. The one time I short it directly to algae and plants, everything in its path BURNED.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## LRJ

burr740 said:


> Well it turns out HCL can kill more than KH. It can also kill Dutch dreams.


Damn, man. Sorry to see this. At least you have back up plans.

Do y'all use protective gear when dosing this stuff? Seems like one accidental splash could spell trouble.


----------



## Immortal1

Sorry to read about your HCL issues - I guess I am fortunate in that I put the HCL in the 20g holding tank under my 75g tank. Give it 5 minutes to mix and then pump it up to the display tank.
I do understand what you said about seeing the opacity difference of the HCL as it goes into the water. By what you described I can imagine it potentially sinking to the bottom of a display tank and effecting the plants. Kinda odd that your post is the first I have read about HCL effecting plants - guess there is many ways to doses and many amounts to dose which would lead to way to many variables.
Best of Luck on your plan B - hope it works out.


----------



## burr740

Thanks guys. Here's some light damage on Erio vietnam and Isoetes from a while back


----------



## varanidguy

burr740 said:


> Thanks guys. Here's some light damage on Erio vietnam and Isoetes from a while back




Wow that’s unfortunate, but at least it’s small enough for the plants to recover from. Have you found that the burning effect is eliminated when you pre-dilute the acid?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## burr740

varanidguy said:


> Wow that’s unfortunate, but at least it’s small enough for the plants to recover from. Have you found that the burning effect is eliminated when you pre-dilute the acid?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Still have to be careful and not let it sit in one place. Especially the small tanks where it's more prone to happen for some reason. Im about to stop doing it, I believe. The vast majority of my plants dont need it. KH out of the tap is 6 which isnt very high in the first place. Just have to keep the true soft water species in the soil tanks.

I just changed out one of the 20Ls to that new Landen soil. Vin set one up a couple months ago, likes it, and a few guys on FB are using it. Its smaller and heavier than Amazonia, and seems harder. Which makes it a lot easier to plant in.

Doesnt leach a lot of ammonia which is a plus iyam. I just want the CEC for KH and loading nutrients mainly. Right now it's taking KH from 6 to 2 in about 36 hours. Of course its brand new so that'll probably get less down the road. Gonna see how well it holds up over the next few months and how plants like it. I could see myself working with this in the big tanks. $20 for 5L isnt too bad (it's $30 some places) One bag per sq foot makes about 2 1/2" deep


----------



## burr740

Yesterday was the AGA deadline and I managed to get my entry in. It came out OK I think. Similar problem as last years in that several groups are still young looking. But its better I think. We'll see if the judges like it any better.

Novo schmovo, wound up using Crypt spiralis 'red' in its place. All I had were babies about 7" tall so I just crammed 6 of them in one place. Ideally would be a couple inches taller but it looks OK

Cool plant. Seems identical to spiralis tiger, has the green stripe on new leaves and the exact same markings, only its a bright reddish color instead of brown.










Results coming in mid November. Here's a teaser. :red_mouth


----------



## ipkiss

Right. I forgot it is competition time. No wonder the updates dried up lately. Best of luck!


----------



## Greggz

Joe I have to commend you for the entering the contest again.

I doubt that most understand the painstaking attention to detail that goes into it.

Growing plants is one thing, creating a true Dutch scape is light years past that.

Good luck and looking forward to seeing the results.


----------



## LRJ

Good luck, man, and congrats on getting the entry in despite the road bumps. That teaser shot looks sweet! Can't wait to see the whole thing.


----------



## burr740

Thanks for the wishes guys. I think the plan was good but it needed a couple more weeks to thicken up better (did I say this on the last page?). Hope Bart and some other real Dutch tanks show up. Results out mid Nov

Ludwigia polycarpa is sometimes prone to lean badly, always a good sign when it doesnt. This one's at the surface in a 75. And yes thats a true Brownie ghost you see bottom right tied to the lava rock. One like Dennis Wong has, not the TC bs. Im big-time now!! 










Here's a glimpse of the new 20 gal Landen soil tank, its about a month old now. Had a little algae the first couple of weeks. I didnt even do extra water changes, just once a week ~70% and regular dosing. Couple of new plants in here, Erio quinquag and Syn caulescens front center. Those are baby giants on the left


----------



## Immortal1

My Ludwigia polycarpa tend to grow straight and usually in a hurry. Seems the closer it gets to the surface the faster it grows. I think at one time you mentioned trying to keep it short ;-)
Your 20 gal Landen soil tank is looking pretty nice. What do you have in the back right of the 20g? Always looking for something I don't have that might fit in on my 75g.


----------



## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> My Ludwigia polycarpa tend to grow straight and usually in a hurry. Seems the closer it gets to the surface the faster it grows. I think at one time you mentioned trying to keep it short ;-)
> Your 20 gal Landen soil tank is looking pretty nice. What do you have in the back right of the 20g? Always looking for something I don't have that might fit in on my 75g.



That's Tonina fluviatilis 'lotus blossom'. It needs very low KH, otherwise pretty easy. Does fine in sand too. Im not adding HCL to this tank, just letting the soil do its thing. Drops it from 6 to around 1-2


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

burr740 said:


> And yes thats a true Brownie ghost you see bottom right tied to the lava rock. One like Dennis Wong has, not the TC bs. Im big-time now!!


calling dibs on any pieces of ghost you decide to sell in the future :grin2:


----------



## ipkiss

Second batch dibs. !


----------



## burr740

The goal is to grow enough make a ghost wall in the Dutch...STOP DISTRACTING ME!


----------



## ipkiss

burr740 said:


> The goal is to grow enough make a ghost wall in the Dutch...STOP DISTRACTING ME!


Now THAT would be a fearsome sight to see!! -- in a most positive and impressive way -- so awesome that it tips over to initial fear.


----------



## burr740

@Greggz has all those nice Rainbows. I have.......snails.

But seriously who doesnt like snails??


----------



## Greggz

As you know Joe, I don't have a single one. Or for that matter a clean up crew of any kind. 

Been thinking about adding some, but honestly don't know if they would be distracting or add anything. 

You know @Edward swears by Ramshorns, but I would be very worried if they grew into a giant herd how that would affect the appearance of the tank. And for some reason I've always thought if you need or rely on them you must be doing something wrong.

But maybe my thinking is all wrong and they would be helpful. Are yours just pond snails? You think they really make any difference? If you didn't have them, would you add them??


----------



## ipkiss

How have u gotten plants from Burr and didn't get your free snails?? You got gypped. He must be slipping. [emoji16]


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> As you know Joe, I don't have a single one. Or for that matter a clean up crew of any kind.
> 
> Been thinking about adding some, but honestly don't know if they would be distracting or add anything.
> 
> You know @*Edward* swears by Ramshorns, but I would be very worried if they grew into a giant herd how that would affect the appearance of the tank. And for some reason I've always thought if you need or rely on them you must be doing something wrong.
> 
> But maybe my thinking is all wrong and they would be helpful. Are yours just pond snails? You think they really make any difference? If you didn't have them, would you add them??


No I have ramshorns in there too, some regular and a few Pinks that @LRJ gave me. 










My experience is they dont help a bit as far as algae. Sure they'll carve a little line down the middle of the glass if there a gda bloom. But they do very little in the way of real algae maintenance. They do eat dead leaves that are melting but again not enough to make much difference. They're just cool creatures to have in there.

Unless you have a ton of decaying plant matter or a ridiculous amount of leftover food that the fish dont eat, you'll never have to worry about a population explosion. I wish I could grow more honestly.


----------



## Streetwise

I know your are an expert, but snails are cool and don't signify anything wrong. I wish I had snails in my apartment to clean up any food scraps!

Cheers


----------



## varanidguy

burr740 said:


> No I have ramshorns in there too, some regular and a few Pinks that @LRJ gave me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My experience is they dont help a bit as far as algae. Sure they'll carve a little line down the middle of the glass if there a gda bloom. But they do very little in the way of real algae maintenance. They do eat dead leaves that are melting but again not enough to make much difference. They're just cool creatures to have in there.
> 
> Unless you have a ton of decaying plant matter or a ridiculous amount of leftover food that the fish dont eat, you'll never have to worry about a population explosion. I wish I could grow more honestly.




My ramshorns will very quickly devour plant melt, but as you said, do little in the way of algae. My MTS, however, love eating anything soft.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Grobbins48

Greggz said:


> As you know Joe, I don't have a single one. Or for that matter a clean up crew of any kind.
> 
> Been thinking about adding some, but honestly don't know if they would be distracting or add anything.


I am here with you Gregg. None in both tanks, and always my worry is if I add them and do not like it, how do you get rid of them?


----------



## rhiro

Hey Joe. Just a question on trimming plant roots. When you receive a new plant and it has long roots do you trim the roots to a certain length or plant as is? Do you treat different genus of plants differently?


----------



## burr740

rhiro said:


> Hey Joe. Just a question on trimming plant roots. When you receive a new plant and it has long roots do you trim the roots to a certain length or plant as is? Do you treat different genus of plants differently?



I usually pinch roots off to around an inch long, mainly just leave enough to help hold the plant down, make it easy to replant. I dont think it matters one way or the other as far as the plant goes. Most of the time the existing root structure is going to slowly die off and get replaced. If you pull a plant up say 2-3 weeks after you get it you can see what I mean. So even if you preserve the full root system, the plant is probably going to replace it anyway.


----------



## rhiro

burr740 said:


> I usually pinch roots off to around an inch long, mainly just leave enough to help hold the plant down, make it easy to replant. I dont think it matters one way or the other as far as the plant goes. Most of the time the existing root structure is going to slowly die off and get replaced. If you pull a plant up say 2-3 weeks after you get it you can see what I mean. So even if you preserve the full root system, the plant is probably going to replace it anyway.



Much appreciated.


----------



## Streetwise

I agree. You cut as necessary to plant the roots as one unit.


----------



## burr740

So AGA results were supposed to come out yesterday but they've been delayed for 2 weeks. I blame @Phil Edwards 

Meanwhile here's Mayaca getting long in the 50 gal


----------



## Greggz

Interesting I never let it grow across the top like that. Actually looks pretty cool.

Macranda tops look nice. Nodes are very tight. And that Curly Tornado is very photogenic. 

FYI L. Chinensis is settling in nicely already. Hope it does well, as it looks like a good plant to work with.

And good luck on the AGA results. I've got it hand it to you, that is a LOT of work to get a tank entry worthy. Very much looking forward to seeing the results when they come out.


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Interesting I never let it grow across the top like that. Actually looks pretty cool.


Thats from pure laziness, lol. But yeah it looks pretty cool. Notice how the bottom part of those stems sorta disappear, cant really see that part. To work like this it needs a few shorter stems around the base, in staggered heights topping out halfway, three quarters of the way, and almost all the way up.

Either that, or another plant group in front to hide the long bottoms, where all you'd see is the tops coming over.



Greggz said:


> FYI L. Chinensis is settling in nicely already. Hope it does well, as it looks like a good plant to work with.


I think you're gonna like that plant. Stays straight and never branches unless you top it and leave the stumps, nice medium growth rate



Greggz said:


> And good luck on the AGA results. I've got it hand it to you, that is a LOT of work to get a tank entry worthy. Very much looking forward to seeing the results when they come out.


Thanks. It has the same glaring problem as last year in that a few central groups are still immature, having a fresh-planted look. I doubt it'll beat many legit contenders...but we'll see what the judges say.


----------



## rhiro

Just wanted to share. Not really about plants but this is the most informative video I have seen on the art of aquascaping.


Maybe another goal for you Joe :smile2:


----------



## RLee

rhiro said:


> Just wanted to share. Not really about plants but this is the most informative video I have seen on the art of aquascaping.
> 
> 
> Maybe another goal for you Joe :smile2:
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJBhmZUwDBI


 I think the most interesting clue to all of his scapes is the tank depth. "Always 60cm/24inches" He says 60cm (24 inches) is mandatory and of course perspective. Length 48" or 60" height 20" or 24". I can think of only a few tanks on this site with the magic 60cm/24" depth.....


----------



## SingAlongWithTsing

Joe you gonna check petco/petsmart's blackfriday sales to see if they have the 4' x 2' x 2' 120 on sale this year?


----------



## burr740

Nice vid @rhiro. Thanks for sharing!



SingAlongWithTsing said:


> Joe you gonna check petco/petsmart's blackfriday sales to see if they have the 4' x 2' x 2' 120 on sale this year?


No but I did just buy a new 75 at half price with their $1 per gal sale. I like working with a 75 better than the 120. You'd think it'd be easier to create depth with the bigger dimensions. Im talking about Dutch depth using all plants. And it probably is for somebody with more experience. But something about the extra height complicates things for me. I'd like to find a 4x2x20-ish inches.

A few random pics from the farm


----------



## burr740

Barclaya longifolia flowering. Usually they dont open in mine. 



















Plant has an unusual dark color for some reason. This is in the front corner of the 50 gal, its kinda dim in this spot around 60 par, with aquasoil.


----------



## Edward

rhiro said:


> Just wanted to share. Not really about plants but this is the most informative video I have seen on the art of aquascaping.








Take a look at the audience. Most of them are bored to death looking at the same design with the same footpath and bright light at the end of a tunnel ... 











Anyone have any good “Zen” videos?


----------



## Nigel95

Edward said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJBhmZUwDBI
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> Take a look at the audience. Most of them are bored to death looking at the same design with the same footpath and bright light at the end of a tunnel ...
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> Anyone have any good “Zen” videos?


Lol the Zen style / all other planted tank styles aren't much different as in unique/original. It's pretty much all the same with maybe a few (new) tweaks. It's okay if you have a preference but why hate? Stick to what you like and keep the negativity for yourself. 

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk


----------



## jart

burr740 said:


> Both canisters have SunSun intakes with the skimmer
> 
> Left corner is the the Aquatop. Using a 1" outflow pipe to reduce velocity (the in-tank flow is crazy!)


Great thread. Hard to get through it all but I'm doing my best, taking notes along the way. Some of my favourite plants in your tank. The subtle difference is, yours are growing well. 

Could you please advise where you sourced these outflow pipes?


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## burr740

jart said:


> Great thread. Hard to get through it all but I'm doing my best, taking notes along the way. Some of my favourite plants in your tank. The subtle difference is, yours are growing well.
> 
> Could you please advise where you sourced these outflow pipes?


Thanks! Im glad you've found the thread helpful. 

If you mean the 1" pipes they are pretty easy to find, just google around for 1" canister ouflow pipes black or something like that. 

Here they are, not sure if this place ships to Canada but its a pretty common part

https://www.aquacave.com/u-tube-out...er-filters-reactors-and-scwd-wave-device.html

The SunSun pipes on the Hydor are from an older SunSun I had. But Ive seen them for sale just the pipes on e bay. Also this is a good place for canister parts in general

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/ViaAqua750CanisterFilter.html

I sent them a mssg one time looking for just the skimmer assembly, which isnt listed on the website. They had one and sent it to me for dirt cheap. Good people.

Will update soon with AGA pics and details. Also made a vid the day of the final pics, just need to get it uploaded


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Will update soon with AGA pics and details. Also made a vid the day of the final pics, just need to get it uploaded


Give us a heads up when this is coming......I want to have the popcorn ready and sitting in my easy chair for a good read!:wink2:


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## burr740

Lots of happenings recently, gonna try to catch up.  We'll start with the AGA Dutch entry.










I was very honored and kinda surprised it came in second. There were some good tanks this year but overall the field wasnt as tough as last year.

Link to the AGA page - https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2019/show645.html

Here's what the judges said


> The Buce-wall is amazing. However, it is also a bit to dominantly present now. Also, putting a red plant right in front of it makes you loose a lot of contrasts. The well grouped plants look healthy. Try to use a bit less trianlge shaped groupings. - Marco Aukes
> 
> Excellent color, texture, and height contrasts! To be nitpicky, the Hygrophila and Cabomba in the middle are visually strong and keep my eye on them. I have to intentionally look around the tank rather than having my attention naturally drawn around the aquascape. Aside from that, the technical execution and health of the plants is top-notch. - Phil Edwards
> 
> This is a lovely tank and the Buce wall is very impressive, the emphasis on red/purple tones is over-done to my eye, as are the repetitive triagular shapes. Try for some longer, more graceful "streets", and work with those green tones more and it will be even stronger! - Karen Randal


In addition to the judges comments, which were spot on imo, I think the main thing I need to work on is having bigger, fuller groups. Will see if I can do better next year. Any comments or feedback from you guys is welcome too.


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## burr740

The focal plant is about 7 baby Crypt spiralis red bunched together. It was the best I could come up with after the HCL incident. 



















Spiralis red is about the same as spiralis tiger, except its more red. The difference is slight though. 










1. Vallisneria Leopard, 2. Limnophila aromatica mini, 3. Limnophila rugosa, 4. Ludwigia sp red, 5. Hygrophila siamesis 53B, 6. Cabomba furcata, 7. Staurogyne purple, 8. Cryptocoryne spiralis 'red', 9. Lobelia cardinalis 'small form', 10. Hygrophila balsamica, 11. Limnophila guinnea, 12. Pogostemon kimberly, 13. Limnophila chinesis, 14. Helanthium bolivianum angustifolius, 15. Bucephalandra hades on back wall


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## vvDO

burr740 said:


> The focal plant is about 7 baby Crypt spiralis red bunched together. It was the best I could come up with after the HCL incident.
> 
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> Spiralis red is about the same as spiralis tiger, except its more red. The difference is slight though. Mature plants can look almost identical.
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> 
> 1. Vallisneria Leopard, 2. Limnophila aromatica mini, 3. Limnophila rugosa, 4. Ludwigia sp red, 5. Hygrophila siamesis 53B, 6. Cabomba furcata, 7. Staurogyne purple, 8. Cryptocoryne spiralis 'red', 9. Lobelia cardinalis 'small form', 10. Hygrophila balsamica, 11. Limnophila guinnea, 12. Pogostemon kimberly, 13. Limnophila chinesis, 14. Helanthium bolivianum angustifolius, 15. Bucephalandra hades on back wall




Looking awesome! They look pretty full to me, unless you mean using larger groupings and less overall groups.

Have you taken pics with different bulbs? I’m not sure if that would help with the whole too much red thing. Your hand is looking fairly purple/red [emoji38]. Is there a ratio of green to red that’s usually accepted in dutch?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ken Keating1

Beautiful tank Joe, just gorgeous. Not sure how any tank could be considered 1st place, they’re all unbelievably beautiful.

I’m curious about the lighting. When you take photos, do you do anything to have the leaves face forward as opposed to up? My plants will start to face forward in the morning because of ambient lighting from the window, and I can get better plant photos as opposed to late evening when the leaves are facing straight up. When the leaves are facing straight up, and one is taking a FTS, there’s not as much color as when the leaves are facing forward.


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## burr740

Here it stands today...LOL










Think I finally found the green focal plant Ive been searching for, Blyxa octandra. About a foot tall full grown and stays green under high light. I dont know if its even in the hobby yet. 

Gotta figure out what to do on the back wall. Probably go back with Buces. I think a smaller leaved species would work better. Can probably grow out enough mini coin to work. Its small, dime size leaves, and its green. 

Also have some Arrogant blue that I could use










There's nothing "blue" about it, fancy trade name, but it could be a lot bluer with a purple bulb on top of it. Thats why the Hades in the contest tank looks purple, its right underneath an ATI purple bulb. Here it is under more neutral light


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## burr740

vvDO said:


> Looking awesome! They look pretty full to me, unless you mean using larger groupings and less overall groups.
> 
> Have you taken pics with different bulbs? I’m not sure if that would help with the whole too much red thing. Your hand is looking fairly purple/red [emoji38]. Is there a ratio of green to red that’s usually accepted in dutch?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks! Good observation. In this context she means there's too many non-green species. But Im always going to use more color than old school traditional Dutch scapes. I just am. Karen is a stickler for traditional rules though, so I can certainly see where she's coming from. Cant argue one bit

I like the purple and rather dark theme. But probably should've toned it down a little bit for the contest. Having the Buce wall more covered by plants in front would've helped. Also would make it not so overpowering like Marco said

And something besides the Purple Stauro in front



Ken Keating1 said:


> Beautiful tank Joe, just gorgeous. Not sure how any tank could be considered 1st place, they’re all unbelievably beautiful.
> 
> I’m curious about the lighting. When you take photos, do you do anything to have the leaves face forward as opposed to up? My plants will start to face forward in the morning because of ambient lighting from the window, and I can get better plant photos as opposed to late evening when the leaves are facing straight up. When the leaves are facing straight up, and one is taking a FTS, there’s not as much color as when the leaves are facing forward.


Thanks Ken. Yeah I know what you mean about the light. It also depends on the species. Some plants look better from the top, others look best in profile. Also late in the day the plants have pearling bubbles on the leaves, even tiny ones we cant see, which makes some things stand really straight due to the buoyancy of the bubbles. Ever noticed that?

There's an old Dutch trick of moving the light forward for a couple of days to get the plants to face forward. In my case the Buces on the wall grow outwards, it will easily take up 6" if I dont keep them pruned back. This causes the background stems underneath to lean forward. Its a pita really because you gotta stay 3-4" off the back wall with eveything or it'll be shaded.


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## Triport

My C. spiralis 'Red' is so green (and algae covered) since I moved it to a lower light tank but it has never been that red. Great tank and congratuatlions.


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## burr740

News from the 20H. Rotala mexicana goias is growing nice in sand with high water column ferts and 5 dKH. Its not too sensitive apparently.










It was time to give this mound a good trim and get it off the glass some










Re-homed about 30 of the longest tops, and pulled a few stumps out roots and all to thin things out a little.










You can see there was a lot of mulm and BBA on the sub underneath. Vacuumed all that crap out. Interesting to note there was zero bba on the plants despite sitting right on top of a bunch

After











Piptospatha ridleyi , pretty cool aroid similar to Homalomena. Its slow growing, had it a few months


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## Greggz

That Mexicana looks interesting. Does it creep along the ground? Doesn't grow vertical much?

And the AR Var. looks great. For some reason I just never have the best luck with it. Could be something with my heavy fish load? Who knows? Maybe I'll figure it out someday. 

The Didiplis D. looks good too!


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## Ben Belton

I think this aquascape is amazing. Your photographs are over the top. If I can get a tank going, I'm going to have to get up with you about how to photograph. I can see the judge's comments. There were 2 excellent tanks in this category IMO, and they can only pick one winner. I prefer yours, but I can see that from a strictly Dutch judging criteria, they make good points.


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## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> You can see there was a lot of mulm and BBA on the sub underneath. Vacuumed all that crap out. Interesting to note there was zero bba on the plants despite sitting right on top of a bunch


I have always found this interesting. I'll have it grow on rocks, but the monte carlo growing over the rock will be beautiful and clean of BBA. It must be those healthy leaves keeping it away.


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## Triport

Ooh I like seeing your Piptospatha ridleyi under water. I just got one from Buce Plants but decided to use it in a closed terrarium I just made.


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## Greggz

Ben Belton said:


> Your photographs are over the top. If I can get a tank going, I'm going to have to get up with you about how to photograph.


I think I know one of Joe's secrets........start with great subject matter!!:grin2:

Joe consistently grows the best looking plants. And the arrangement is always meticulous.

Gives us all something to strive for.


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## fablau

Amazing indeed Joe. A real inspiration for us all, as always. Looking forward to see the results!


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## SLOBY

Christ, that is one beautiful tank!!!! Congratulations!


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> That Mexicana looks interesting. Does it creep along the ground? Doesn't grow vertical much?


It creeps along the ground. I never thought much of it from just seeing it in pics. Somebody gave me a few so I stuck them in the ground. Gotta say its pretty cool once it grows out. Not many yellow carpeting plants out there. This patch should come back out looking nicer than it did pre-trim.



Greggz said:


> And the AR Var. looks great. For some reason I just never have the best luck with it. Could be something with my heavy fish load? Who knows? Maybe I'll figure it out someday.


These look fair, OK but not great. This is one plant that for me has always needed very low micros. The tank its in gets .1 Fe 3x, it would look even better with lower levels. Macros can be high or low, doesnt seem to matter. 

Another interesting thing about the variegated, Ive never got it to do well in aquasoil tanks. Regardless of dosing it's always doing better in the sand tanks. One of the only plants I can think of like that

Then regular version is a lot easier, it can tolerate a wide range of nutrients and doesnt care what type of substrate. 



Ben Belton said:


> I think this aquascape is amazing. Your photographs are over the top. If I can get a tank going, I'm going to have to get up with you about how to photograph.


Thanks Ben! I really appreciate it.

I'll be glad to help you with taking photos. Bring a cigarette pack and a crayon. Because that's all you need to write down everything I know about taking pictures. 

Seriously Im a photo noob. I use a Galaxy phone in pro mode. ISO 150-200, white balance on fluorescent or auto, exposure usually in the -1.5 - -2 range. Everything else left auto

I dont even know if those are optimum settings, its just what I've arrived at that seems to look best. Also it helps to take darker pics than you want, and adjust the brightness after the fact. 



Ben Belton said:


> I can see the judge's comments. There were 2 excellent tanks in this category IMO, and they can only pick one winner. I prefer yours, but I can see that from a strictly Dutch judging criteria, they make good points.


I thought the overall competition was weaker this year than last. Hopefully thats not a trend of things to come. The top tank clearly is better than mine in regards to meeting Dutch criteria.










Was reading another journal a while back, some of you guys were talking about how to use Eichhornia diversifolia. ^That's how! But omg I cant imagine trying to keep 20 stems that high on a regular basis. They'll be at the surface in 2 days and have to be shortened again.

That bunch was most likely, more or less inserted for the pic. Probably cut to the desired height and planted a day or two before. The Myrio, Didiplis and Wisteria was probably handled similarly. Its the only way to do super fast growing stuff to make it the right height relative to everything else. There's always a couple species I have to do that with too. It doesnt all magically grow to the ideal height at the same time. That guy did a helluva job, stunning tank.



Grobbins48 said:


> I have always found this interesting. I'll have it grow on rocks, but the monte carlo growing over the rock will be beautiful and clean of BBA. It must be those healthy leaves keeping it away.


Yep, prime example of how healthy plants, healthy leaves dont get bba


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## Ken Keating1

burr740 said:


> Was reading another journal a while back, some of you guys were talking about how to use Eichhornia diversifolia. ^That's how! But omg I cant imagine trying to keep 20 stems that high on a regular basis. They'll be at the surface in 2 days and have to be shortened again.
> 
> That bunch was most likely, more or less inserted for the pic. Probably cut to the desired height and planted a day or two before. The Myrio, Didiplis and Wisteria was probably handled similarly. Its the only way to do super fast growing stuff to make it the right height relative to everything else. There's always a couple species I have to do that with too. It doesnt all magically grow to the ideal height at the same time. That guy did a helluva job, stunning tank.


Good point on the E. Diversifolia, no way in my tank does it grown evenly, and there can be quite a big growth difference between stems. I use it as low level plant, and if I’m on top of trimming it gets topped and replanted every 3 or 4 days back to ground level. Otherwise it’s a race to the surface.


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## burr740

Copying a post from the T5 Combo thread. This is a new 75 gal farm tank, which before anyone asks Im getting around to posting the details for.  

Right now we are using it to compare Agromax Pure Bloom with Powerveg bulbs



















As expected it's very similar to Powerveg reds. Here it is beside a PV 660 in the light fixture

PV on the right, Agromax Pure Bloom on the left










PV in back, Agromax in front










Looking at the bulbs, the Agromax compares more to the PV 633, which looks a little "warmer" than the 660 in pics.

These pics are with one or the other. There's a TrueLumen flora in the other slot. There's not a ton of reds in the tank but enough to get the gist

PV










Agromax










Color-wise, not much different at all right? PAR is very close too, 3-4 points higher with the Agromax, which was brand new at the time of reading. I think it is safe to say the Agromax Pure Bloom is a solid replacement for Powerveg bulbs at 1/3 of the cost.

In other news; Im going to need a bigger bulb box! :red_mouth










Thats not as many cool bulbs as it looks like, probably 10-12 are various 6500K that came with light fixtures

The 24" stash...not quite so big


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## Hendy8888

Are those purple or blue bulbs on the outside?


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## burr740

Hendy8888 said:


> Are those purple or blue bulbs on the outside?


In front is an Agromax Pure Par, which is very similar to ATI purple. In back is a Wavepoint UG, which I dont really like because its dim and weird looking. The back bulb isnt really over the tank. At 18" the light is as wide as the aquarium. I dont like it all the way flush with the front so its scooted back a few inches. This leaves the back bulb shining down in space

Im glad you brought up blue vs purple. My favorite four bulb combo, the one I think looks best out of all the current tanks, includes a blue 420 actinic in place of a purple.

3000K
420 actinic
PV 633
Geisemann flora



















The other tanks with four bulbs use the basically same combo except with a purple instead of the actinic, and its just not quite the same. If I hadnt just recently stocked up on ATI purples and Agromax Pure Par, I'd be swapping all my purple bulbs out for actinics. Still might ....


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Im glad you brought up blue vs purple. My favorite four bulb combo, the one I think looks best out of all the current tanks, includes a blue 420 actinic in place of a purple.
> 
> 3000K
> 420 actinic
> PV 633
> Geisemann flora


Guessing 3000K is Plantmax?? I've got a few of those.

What is the 420 Actinic?

And why oh why do I read this stuff? I mean I have a lot of bulbs already but just suddenly realized I need more!:grin2:


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> Guessing 3000K is Plantmax?? I've got a few of those.
> 
> What is the 420 Actinic?
> 
> And why oh why do I read this stuff? I mean I have a lot of bulbs already but just suddenly realized I need more!:grin2:


Yeah the 3000K is a Plantmax, great bulb, kinda hard to find individually sometimes. Agromax' 3000K are good too

That actinic is an Oddyssea bulb that came with the light. I have a couple 48" ZooMed actinics that are good. Coral Sun I think. Geisemann and ATI make one too if you want to step up in price

Go ahead and scoop up a couple, you wont know til you try it!


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Go ahead and scoop up a couple, you wont know til you try it!


Thanks Joe I am sure I will have a couple in a cart in a few minutes......as always thanks for feeding my madness!:wink2:

Update: ZooMed Coral Sun Actinic 420 on the way!!!!


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## Matt69

Great tank and tank journal I have read alo t of it, makes me want to try high tech again.


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## burr740

Just put this Red Tiger Lily up for RAOK. Such a gorgeous plant I figured why not post the pics here too. 




























It was an early candidate for Dutch focal plant when I melted the blyxa. Got a few back then but they were too small and scraggly, baby plants. This is one of them. Its about 12" tall and 12"-14" wide, started growing a lot faster maybe two months ago, now its one new leaf after another. 

Would love to keep it but its just too big


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## Maryland Guppy

Thanks for sharing Joe!
Awesome plant that I've not kept lately due to size.

Had a bulb that sent off many extra plants.
Regrettably I sold them all off including the bulb!

Better late than never!
Great job with AGA Dutch entry this past year!!! :grin2:

Maybe one day/year I will get an entry in.
I'm still having too much fun with growing and battling the occasional algae bomb. >
And of course growing lots of plants!


----------



## Andarre

@burr740 I'm driving myself nuts trying to find a 4 light, 18" fixture. I'm trying to reproduce your results because they're simply spectacular.

Do you have any insight as to where I can get an 18" T5 HO fixture? My apologies if this has been mentioned in this thread.

Thank you in advance!!


----------



## burr740

Andarre said:


> @*burr740* I'm driving myself nuts trying to find a 4 light, 18" fixture. I'm trying to reproduce your results because they're simply spectacular.
> 
> Do you have any insight as to where I can get an 18" T5 HO fixture? My apologies if this has been mentioned in this thread.
> 
> Thank you in advance!!



Im not sure you can even get 18" T5HO. For the most part these days its either 24" or 48". There are 36" and 60" out there but very limited bulb options for a freshwater aquarium


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## vvDO

Andarre said:


> Do you have any insight as to where I can get an 18" T5 HO fixture? My apologies if this has been mentioned in this thread.
> 
> Thank you in advance!!



Do you mean 18” wide or long?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Andarre

18" long. My tank is a perfect cube at 18x18x18.

Is there maybe a smaller fixture? I'd hate to go larger and have overhang.

Would your lighting be replicable with LED's? I have a Twinstar fixture over my tank ATM and it looks too blue and washed out for my tastes not to mention any red plants I put in there turn brown but grow like crazy. My dosing is skimpy on the N side to force red and theres plenty of iron available but it doesn't seem to matter. I'm 100% sure it's due to lighting.


----------



## Andarre

burr740 said:


> Andarre said:
> 
> 
> 
> @*burr740* I'm driving myself nuts trying to find a 4 light, 18" fixture. I'm trying to reproduce your results because they're simply spectacular.
> 
> Do you have any insight as to where I can get an 18" T5 HO fixture? My apologies if this has been mentioned in this thread.
> 
> Thank you in advance!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Im not sure you can even get 18" T5HO. For the most part these days its either 24" or 48". There are 36" and 60" out there but very limited bulb options for a freshwater aquarium
Click to expand...

I'm learning this the hard way unfortunately. I've seen some T5 hydroponic fixtures but they only come as a single fixture for 1 light with no daisy chain option. Frustrating to say the least.


----------



## burr740

With an 18" cube I'd probably start researching LEDs.  

Farm Tidbits:

Got this Limnophila wavy a couple of weeks ago, pretty cool green stem. 










Its in the sand 75, the original farm. The OG Farm










Here's some pics of the new 75 farm which Ive been meaning to give details on. Its about 7 weeks old. Landen aquasoil, SunSun 304B canister, 6 T5HO. Im dropping the KH to 1 with HCL. Only doing HCL in the three soil tanks now, thats where I keep soft water or difficult stuff. The sand tanks all use straight tap (KH 5-6)





































Its been a pretty smooth start up with this tank. I added some cycled bio media from other canisters to begin with and changed water 2x week for the first month. Had a pretty strong case of GDA during weeks 2-4. Had to do a lot of pruning to keep it removed and it finally cleared up.

And yes, the conglomeration on the right side is exactlywhat it looks like - Im blasting CO2 straight through a powerhead. 










There's a chopstick in the end of the co2 line to pre-diffuse the bubbles. 

Started out as temporary while I built the reactor. Now plants are doing so well I hate to change it, lol. Ive never seen Blood Vomit this happy, think it likes the direct blast of co2 mist it gets every day. 

There is a BIG sprite water effect though. Which I dont really mind being back here in the tank room. If the plants like it I like it!


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## SingAlongWithTsing

need more pics of the rest of the fish room lol


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## vvDO

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> need more pics of the rest of the fish room lol




I second that!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hendy8888

burr740;11295689.. said:


> And yes, the conglomeration on the right side is exactlywhat it looks like - Im blasting CO2 straight through a powerhead.


All I see is that LED fixture on the bottom rack....


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## burr740

SingAlongWithTsing said:


> need more pics of the rest of the fish room lol





vvDO said:


> I second that!


Haha, a little mystery is good for a relationship. 



Hendy8888 said:


> All I see is that LED fixture on the bottom rack....


I know right? Its the only LED I have, Beamswork DA F-spec something or other. Color is bad, worse than I expected, but I took a chance since this tank doesnt need anything fancy, space is limited so it kinda needed a slim LED, and it was cheap. Ive had it for about a year. Its brighter than I wanted too, PAR at the sub around 140! lol Plants grow fine with it though, just the color sucks


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## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> I know right? Its the only LED I have, Beamswork DA F-spec something or other. Color is bad, worse than I expected, but I took a chance since this tank doesnt need anything fancy, space is limited so it kinda needed a slim LED, and it was cheap. Ive had it for about a year. Its brighter than I wanted too, PAR at the sub around 140! lol Plants grow fine with it though, just the color sucks


Been there! Ha!


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## Greggz

Nice update Joe.

Lot's to digest there. You could probably start a new journal on just the sand vs. soil aspect.

I would be particularly interesting in observations on plants you have growing in both. I think it would be helpful, not only to me, but the community in general.

And now the big question.

If you could only have one tank, and it was going to be a "display" tank....you know, like the 75 OG....which would you choose?

And the pic of the T5 tank vs. the LED tank is instructive. Now I know that is only one fixture, and I am sure there are better ones out there, but the difference is stark.


----------



## burr740

burr740 said:


> News from the 20H. Rotala mexicana goias is growing nice in sand with high water column ferts and 5 dKH. Its not too sensitive apparently.
> ....
> 
> After


Goias rebounded well, about 30 days later:


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Nice update Joe.
> 
> Lot's to digest there. You could probably start a new journal on just the sand vs. soil aspect.
> 
> I would be particularly interesting in observations on plants you have growing in both. I think it would be helpful, not only to me, but the community in general.


That would be interesting. But you'd have to consider the lower KH in the soil tanks. I use HCL in the soil tanks to put the KH around 1, then the soils take it even further depending on the freshness of the soil in each tank.

To make a genuine comparison between substrates you'd need the same KH. Which I could do obviously with HCL in the sand tanks, but my current routine is the sand tanks get straight tap with no adjustments. And Im not in the mood to change it up right now.  But I'll keep this in mind and try to share any interesting "lessons" that I learn along the way.



Greggz said:


> And now the big question.
> 
> If you could only have one tank, and it was going to be a "display" tank....you know, like the 75 OG....which would you choose?


Haha, just one??? What am I supposed to do with just one tank?

But if I HAD to choose it'd be the new 75 with Landen soil and its not even close. I wish it was in the living room where the Dutch is. Why? Because of the substrate's ability to grow sensitive plants better I could use more cool stuff in a competition scape. Have more plants to choose from in other words.


----------



## Chlorophile

burr740 said:


> That would be interesting. But you'd have to consider the lower KH in the soil tanks. I use HCL in the soil tanks to put the KH around 1, then the soils take it even further depending on the freshness of the soil in each tank.
> 
> To make a genuine comparison between substrates you'd need the same KH. Which I could do obviously with HCL in the sand tanks, but my current routine is the sand tanks get straight tap with no adjustments. And Im not in the mood to change it up right now.  But I'll keep this in mind and try to share any interesting "lessons" that I learn along the way.
> 
> 
> 
> Haha, just one??? What am I supposed to do with just one tank?
> 
> But if I HAD to choose it'd be the new 75 with Landen soil and its not even close. I wish it was in the living room where the Dutch is. Why? Because of the substrate's ability to grow sensitive plants better I could use more cool stuff in a competition scape. Have more plants to choose from in other words.


Can you point me in the right direction regarding the HCL? always been very interested but not sure what the methodology is there..


----------



## Immortal1

Chlorophile said:


> Can you point me in the right direction regarding the HCL? always been very interested but not sure what the methodology is there..



https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...1290515-dosing-hcl-post-your-experiences.html Lot of good info in this thread


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Haha, just one??? What am I supposed to do with just one tank?
> 
> But if I HAD to choose it'd be the new 75 with Landen soil and its not even close. I wish it was in the living room where the Dutch is. Why? Because of the substrate's ability to grow sensitive plants better I could use more cool stuff in a competition scape. Have more plants to choose from in other words.


Dang I was afraid you were going to say that! 

I've toyed with the idea of trying soil, but honestly don't think it is in the cards for me. But seeing your success with it sure does make it tempting. Those plants sure do look fat and happy.

And by the way even the farm tanks look spectacular. As always, inspiration for everyone here.


----------



## Phil Edwards

Don't blame me, I scored you #1.  It was really close and came down to the dark area/exposed lower portion of the stems in the midground. Both entries were very well executed and were heavily discussed prior to final ranking.


----------



## jkellyid

The dutch style is not what I want in my home but I do love to see it in a great aquarium shop. It's just the best way to show off plants.


----------



## burr740

Phil Edwards said:


> Don't blame me, I scored you #1.  It was really close and came down to the dark area/exposed lower portion of the stems in the midground. Both entries were very well executed and were heavily discussed prior to final ranking.


That is very interesting because as far as the competition I thought the 1st place entry was head and shoulders better than mine. As a matter of fact I dont think Ive made a good Dutch scape yet. 

Can you be more specific about this part - "dark area/exposed lower portion of the stems in the midground"

Are you talking about the L red area or something else?


----------



## burr740

Got a few new plants to show you guys

*Murdania red*. Its big and wild, grows every which way. These are about 15" tall, it'd be easier to make an attractive group to keep it in the 6-8" range. Doesnt seem to be a sensitive plant at all. Has a nice moderate growth rate too.










*Crypt Parva 'mini'* on the right. Six months Ive had this plant, originally TC. It just sat there for about 4 months, then finally started putting out some new growth. Its probably double the size now from when I got it. 










At the very front, starting from the left. 










*Syngonanthus vichada* - pretty rare Syn, stays short

*Hygrophila chai* - Finally was able to score a sprig of this bad boy. It's 100% submerged growth. Got it and the Syn via trade w/John Rodico if you guys know him, posts mainly on FB.

*Staurogyne porto velho* on the right.

The Tonina you can see part of is toucantins. Its probably the rarest of the three fluviatilis varieties (regular and lotus blossom) The leaves droop like the regular but has narrower leaves and stem, it's kinda top-heavy. Here's a better pic 










*Fun fact:* Lotus blossom leaves dont droop, they point straight out or slightly up. Its a good way to tell it apart from the other two. 










@Maryland Guppy Does this look like H'ra to you? Thats what its supposed to be but I cant really tell rotundifolia variants apart.


----------



## ipkiss

congrats on the hygro chai! hows the brownie ghost doing?


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Looks like H'ra to me!

Thought to add this.
Rotundifolia can take many forms.
Some stores call it indica and all sorts of names.
Light can affect the look the most.
I've grown it to almost look white, go figure.


----------



## vvDO

burr740 said:


> *Syngonanthus vichada* - pretty rare Syn, stays short
> 
> *Hygrophila chai* - Finally was able to score a sprig of this bad boy. It's 100% submerged growth. Got it and the Syn via trade w/John Rodico if you guys know him, posts mainly on FB.



Nice... I got some too... tissue culture, hopefully they’ll convert to submerged. They actually had flowers.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

ipkiss said:


> congrats on the hygro chai! hows the brownie ghost doing?


How's the Brownie Ghost doing? Probably not good after I inadvertently vacuumed it up and tossed it, lol.

Sure did. It looked to be struggling after a few weeks. The existing leaves had slowly melted away. Idk if it was converting from something or what. There was a tiny new leaf or two but the plant overall had become pretty small. Well I moved it to a soil tank sitting right down on the substrate, in sort of a crowded spot which should be fine for it. 

During this time I'd got real busy otherwise and tank maintenance was being done at a bare minimum. Things in the Buce's tank got really congested and I actually forgot all about it. Eventually cleaned the tank up good, huge prune and thorough substrate vacuum. The works. Then a month or so later it dawns on me, Oh sh*t the Brownie Ghost was in there!!!

I either vacuumed it up or it just melted away completely. Pretty sure I did it. Either way it's disappeared


----------



## ipkiss

wow. i "oh sh**"ed out loud. 

i hate that. when you vacuum a struggling plant out and then realize way after u threw it out. you think maaan, i had a chance and i was bringing it back from the edge too!

but i guess it was meant to be. 

sorry for the bad luck.


----------



## Phil Edwards

I was talking about the other guy's tank. 

I won't disagree with you, there have been very few truly good Dutch entries since we started the category. However, there has been a consistent improvement in quality among those who make valid/actual attempts; you included.


----------



## Greggz

Phil Edwards said:


> I was talking about the other guy's tank.
> 
> I won't disagree with you, there have been very few truly good Dutch entries since we started the category. However, there has been a consistent improvement in quality among those who make valid/actual attempts; you included.


When you come up with a no holds barred no rules free-for-all Kaleidoscope category count me in!!:grin2:

Dutch takes a major commitment, and I am worried if I tried I would need to be committed.


----------



## Grobbins48

Greggz said:


> When you come up with a no holds barred no rules free-for-all Kaleidoscope category count me in!!:grin2:
> 
> 
> 
> Dutch takes a major commitment, and I am worried if I tried I would need to be committed.


Same here. Thought about trying it a year ago, but I enjoy the garden style a few of us have going on!


----------



## Immortal1

Grobbins48 said:


> Same here. Thought about trying it a year ago, but I enjoy the garden style a few of us have going on!


Pretty much have the same thoughts about my garden - to many "rules" in the true Dutch catagory.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Yeah, and no mini solo cups allowed! >


----------



## Greggz

Maryland Guppy said:


> Yeah, and no mini solo cups allowed! >


LOL! Now that would be an entirely new and different category!

And if I'm the judge........you are in first place!!:wink2:


----------



## Chlorophile

Very glad to see you have Tonina now - something I've always wanted to grow!
Hmmm does it fit in my aquarium... why yes, everything fits!


----------



## Blue Ridge Reef

burr740 said:


> How's the Brownie Ghost doing?
> 
> I either vacuumed it up or it just melted away completely. Pretty sure I did it. Either way it's disappeared


I was just looking at your tank again and can't get over that buce wall. If I may ask how long did this take to fill in? Did you start with a huge amount or did that come with patience? I tried to go back through the thread and find where you removed the Xmas moss and replaced it, but somewhere around page 40 I saw both and then just buce. Could be confusing the 120 with the farm tank though. At any rate I have a few varieties of Buce growing and it's certainly grown after two years, but not in amounts I could build a tank around. Any that is high up in the tank I have to fight algae on old growth too, and you've got it at surface level looking perfect. Do you use glut? Any tips? Any varieties that do well/do poorly for you?


----------



## burr740

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> I was just looking at your tank again and can't get over that buce wall. If I may ask how long did this take to fill in? Did you start with a huge amount or did that come with patience? I tried to go back through the thread and find where you removed the Xmas moss and replaced it, but somewhere around page 40 I saw both and then just buce. Could be confusing the 120 with the farm tank though. At any rate I have a few varieties of Buce growing and it's certainly grown after two years, but not in amounts I could build a tank around. Any that is high up in the tank I have to fight algae on old growth too, and you've got it at surface level looking perfect. Do you use glut? Any tips? Any varieties that do well/do poorly for you?



Idk really they just grew kinda fast. I started with maybe a dozen. They dont grow across the wall, they grow out towards the front. So you have to keep them pruned back or they start shading everything underneath. In the process I just kept adding to the empty spaces and it didnt take long, probably 4 months. Then I was auctioning big piles of it on FB about every six weeks. 

I dont know any secrets or anything, it just worked. :nerd:


----------



## burr740

And since apparently you're not part of the cool crowd these days unless you post ugly pictures too :red_mouth , here's some Rotala mexicana red that Im slowly killing. Its the little bunch in the middle










No surprise here, it's supposed to be very difficult and intolerant to higher dosing. This is what it looked like when I got it from Rodico about 3 weeks ago, very nice










Its not something Im gonna change anything to try and please or whatever. It doesnt like the best spot in the best tank I have to offer, so...its just one of those plants that need as different system, one with not much in the water column


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> And since apparently you're not part of the cool crowd these days unless you post ugly pictures too :red_mouth , here's some Rotala mexicana red that Im slowly killing. Its the little bunch in the middle


Oh geez you mean I gotta start killing some plants to be with the cool crowd?? Hey, whatever it takes....I'll get on it!:grin2:

But seriously now, that post is a great learning experience. Even someone like you, who can bring out the best in so many plants, might run across some that just flat out don't like what you are providing. 

So what you should do? Exactly what you said, don't chase it at the expense of others. It might adjust, bounce back, and thrive.....and if it does...great. If not, move onto to something else. 

I see lots of folks who have success with most plants, but are obsessed with something like AR mini or Ammannia. They twist themselves in knots trying to please that one plant, and the rest of the tank suffers. We've both banged our heads against the wall over and over again with a few species.. .and I think we have both learned that sometimes you just gotta give up and move on.

And by the way, the pink crypts are looking good. Are they growing? Doing well in general?


----------



## Grobbins48

If killing plants is cool, then I'm The Fonz!


----------



## Jeffww

I have found mexicana varients to be pretty fragile. Not sure how to keep them going. My best luck was one from "goias" and one "araguia" variety although I no longer have them. 

The pink flamingo crypts are great. I have them grown from an ADA tissue culture cup. They are pretty light hungry though. Very slow growing when planted in the shade as I have them. But they are pretty hardy with sufficient nutrition.


----------



## ginplants

I love reading this thread and looking at the pictures! So much to learn from everyone


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> And by the way, the pink crypts are looking good. Are they growing? Doing well in general?


Funny you asked, got these two gnarly mother plants that for about six months do nothing but sit here and make babies. It's where all the others come from.










The baby crypts usually go on and do OK. Its still not a bulletproof plant for me. I dont think it particularly likes high dosing (contrary to Jeff's experience above which is totally viable too). The best ones I see are low tech and lower dosing folks, and these got a few steps better a while back when I'd dropped micros down a little bit.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Funny you asked, got these two gnarly mother plants from about six months ago that do nothing but sit here and make babies.
> 
> The baby crypts usually go on and do OK. Its still not a bulletproof plant for me. I dont think it particularly likes high dosing (contrary to Jeff's experience above which is totally viable too). The best ones I see are low tech and lower dosing folks, and these got a few steps better a while back when I'd dropped micros down a little bit.


Thanks that's about what I expected, and why I asked. They didn't look like they had grown much in the three weeks between pictures.

I've thought of getting some, but have suspected my parameters are probably not the best for them.

But that pink IS awfully nice, and I get why it's become a popular one to try.


----------



## Jeffww

My shade grown flamingos actually take on a more "normal" color. Still pink but with some green-brown tone to them. Maybe with less light available the grow more like a normal crypt? I've also wondered how different "pink flamingo" and "pink panther" are. ADA sells it as pink panther and some other vendors sell it as pink flamingo. Could be clones of the same plant or similar, simultaneously developed mutants.


----------



## ipkiss

flamingo is my nemesis!!  mine all shriveled away. sigh


got one left. emersed. growing but not pink at all!!! dunno how I'm going to handle it. gonna get some inspiration from chantz .. he seems to do well with it emersed. maybe even try his stock in case it has adapted better to florida water.


----------



## burr740

Jeffww said:


> My shade grown flamingos actually take on a more "normal" color. Still pink but with some green-brown tone to them. Maybe with less light available the grow more like a normal crypt? I've also wondered how different "pink flamingo" and "pink panther" are. ADA sells it as pink panther and some other vendors sell it as pink flamingo. Could be clones of the same plant or similar, simultaneously developed mutants.


A guy who should know said he was pretty sure Flamingo is a Nurii and Pink Panther is a Wendtii. He's growing both emmersed gonna know for sure when they flower.

If that is the case Pink Panther should be easier I would think. Mine here are Flamingo.


----------



## ipkiss

shoot. that means i *should* try my hand at panther. i saw that fb thread i think.


----------



## Jeffww

burr740 said:


> A guy who should know said he was pretty sure Flamingo is a Nurii and Pink Panther is a Wendtii. He's growing both emmersed gonna know for sure when they flower.
> 
> If that is the case Pink Panther should be easier I would think. Mine here are Flamingo.



That would definitely explain it. I'll have to get some flamingo for myself then. I've been wanting to raise nurii again but no one has it!


----------



## chayos00

Burr you sound like me here in Arizona when we get a cold snap, I'm not going to extra lengths to keep the plants alive, if they can't handle it and die, time to move on to something that can handle getting frozen once a year if that. LOL


----------



## burr740

I havent been giving the Dutch tank the attention it needs lately and the neglect has caused a few issues. So I figured why not share it with you guys.  Water changes have been regular but Ive ignored other important stuff, like keeping old growth pruned out and vacuuming gunk off the substrate. Two things that cause big problems if you dont keep up with it. 

I usually do a little vacuuming with every water change. Then its always clean and you never have to do much. But if you let that crap build up it starts causing algae and plant issues. Ive just been lazy and paying more attention to other tanks, not bothering to do much with this one. Well when you get lazy something like this happens










The pic's not blurry, thats algae on the glass. Its been showing up late in the week for a while, and now something similar is getting on the plants. I will begrudgingly tolerate a little on the glass every now and then but the gloves come off when it gets on the plants! Most species are clean, probably 5-6 have some degree of algae.



















If this was my only tank I could easily start going around in circles over ferts. But the other three sand tanks with the same ferts are doing fine, so clearly its not fert related. CO2 is good, made sure of that. The filter just hit 3 months. I like to clean them every two months but often go three plus. Its due for a cleaning and probably contributing somewhat to the problem. 

But the main cause is this right here. I should've wiped the glass so you could see what's on the substrate better. Follow the arrow. That's what needs getting out. It was all over the place especially the back half of the tank.


----------



## burr740

To vacuum I use a 5 gal bucket and a siphon hose. I hold it like this and feel my way around with my finger.










Vrrooom vrrooom! Gettin all up in there, all the way back











Went group by group, replanting stem tops, pruning old growth and anything with algae on it, whatever a particular group needed, vacuuming good as I went. It took about two hours to do the whole tank. I didnt go deep with the vacuum, just went over the surface good with my finger stirring up maybe 1/4" of the top in the process. It could probably use a deep vacuum, might have to do that next

Mini Myrio in piles of short, medium and long. It was clean all the way down but needed a prune anyway










When all that was done, turned the filter off and sprayed things down with peroxide and glut. Then started the drain for a big 80% water change.


----------



## burr740

So nothing fancy, no hidden secrets or magic fert recipes. Just good old fashioned elbow grease. The grunt work.

Before (again)










After










Split the Blyxa octandra and added some goias in front of it. 










Staurogyne purple had a good bit of algae but also a lot of nice young growth, used only the good clean stuff and tossed everything else. That's Erio aquatica to the left. It was in front of octandra before and needed splitting. So its over here now. 










I let the filter run overnight and cleaned it this morning. Now we wait. Hopefully the plants perk up and algae goes away lol. Thats the plan, probably take a couple weeks. Will post updates.


----------



## Grobbins48

Joe, I must say this transparency and detail is fantastic to see. Thank you for taking the time to detail about tank maintenance and its importance. You have actually motivate me to add another syphon to my arsenal- I have a wide mouth and a narrow mouth PVC, but never used just the tube alone to get extra intricate on the vacuuming. 

Will be following your updates closely!


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> Joe, I must say this transparency and detail is fantastic to see. Thank you for taking the time to detail about tank maintenance and its importance. You have actually motivate me to add another syphon to my arsenal- I have a wide mouth and a narrow mouth PVC, but never used just the tube alone to get extra intricate on the vacuuming.
> 
> Will be following your updates closely!


Thanks! I probably should've mentioned be careful using just the tube because it is a POWERFUL suction. Dont get close to a fish and I wouldnt even try it around shrimp. 

...and roll your sleeves WAY up.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> So nothing fancy, no hidden secrets or magic fert recipes. Just good old fashioned elbow grease. The grunt work.


Joe great post. I hope a lot of people read it and let it soak in.

Water changes, gravel vacs, filter cleanings, trimming/pruning, removal of any dead or decaying plant matter......it all adds up.

Many would start wildly changing dosing, and likely contribute to the problem, not solve it.

A while back I changed nothing at all besides cleaning filters more often. Made everything easier. I think it's even more important in a tank like mine with a heavy fish load.

Think about this. When you take that filter to the sink and dump it out, a bunch of gunk comes out. Then rinse the pads and more gunk comes out. Now think about dumping all that into the tank. 

Well, when it's in the filter it's in the tank (water column). 

So once again, great post. Should be a sticky. Like you said, good old fashioned elbow grease can cure a lot of ills.

And that Blyxa Octandra is a good looking plant. Have never seen that one before. I could see how it would be a good one to work with.


----------



## vijay_06

Very informative post. Thanks for sharing. I have a few questions on using Glut/Peroxide as part of routine maintenance.

Is that a mix of both in some particular ratio that you spray? How much can one use as part of routine maintenance without harming the livestock?

I have common plants that most of them on this forum have. Do I need to be aware of any specific plants that do not take well to these chemicals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> A while back I changed nothing at all besides cleaning filters more often. Made everything easier. I think it's even more important in a tank like mine with a heavy fish load.
> 
> Think about this. When you take that filter to the sink and dump it out, a bunch of gunk comes out. Then rinse the pads and more gunk comes out. Now think about dumping all that into the tank.
> 
> Well, when it's in the filter it's in the tank (water column).


Yep. I remember when I was first starting out, just reading mostly, when someone was having issues I noticed experts like Barr would always harp on "good pruning" and cleaning 

I didnt get it. I thought "pruning" was all about looks and didnt see how in the heck that was going to help Joe Blow's algae and stunted plants. But they kept on saying it. Took me a while but I finally realized that pruning meant the cleaning out of plant matter thats old or in poor condition, and the importance of doing it

The fish load here is pretty light, in the other tanks five out of seven have zero livestock. I see that same mulm in all of them. Its mostly from dead plant matter. Last month it was just ratty old growth somewhere that should've been pruned out instead of left in the system to rot - and feed no telling what as it breaks down. 

If I'd done a better job pruning old crappy growth on a regular basis like you're supposed to there wouldnt be so much mulm in the first place, or as much biological waste in the system from the process.

Decaying plant matter - keep it out - anything that's old or damaged or starting to get that way. Prune it when you see it instead of waiting until it's dust on the bottom. 



vijay_06 said:


> Very informative post. Thanks for sharing. I have a few questions on using Glut/Peroxide as per of routine maintenance.
> 
> Is that a mix of both in some particular ratio that you spray? How much can one use as part of routine maintenance without harming the livestock?
> 
> I have common plants that most of them on this forum have. Do I need to be aware of any specific plants that do not take well to these chemicals?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have peroxide and glut in separate bottles just because sometimes I want one or the other. Here's my little glut bottle. 










A 50/50 mix in the same bottle works too, I think Greggz and a few others around here do that.

As for not overdoing it, well you should know the maximum safe amount of whatever you're using relative to your livestock. And then have a general idea how much you're spraying in there. Test the bottle with water and see how far the level drops after 5 squirts, 10 squirts, etc. That will give you an idea in ML. I cant tell you what is safe relative to your livestock but in my experience neither one pose much of a threat to hardy species. For shrimp or sensitive fish, no idea

I usually do spraying like this right before a water change, with the filters off, right before starting the drain. It can sit there at a high concentration for 30 minutes or so while the water drains. Then it gets diluted with the new water so I dont worry too much about overdoing it.

But for stubborn areas more frequent spot treating might be necessary, like every day or two for a bit. Turn the filters/current off, spray problem areas and let it sit 20-30 minutes before turning the filters back on. 

Obviously you need to be more careful with how much if you're not doing a water change. Livestock aside, Excel imo is safer to OD on because too much peroxide can kill the bio and cause a mini recycle, especially if it runs through the filter. Most plants are fine with high Excel. Vals specifically are prone to melt at first but they usually come back adjusted and do fine. Supposedly it kills Anacharis, and maybe something else. But 99% are fine with it. Peroxide, no worries at all as far as plants if you're spraying underwater.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Yep. I remember when I was first starting out, just reading mostly, when someone was having issues experts like Barr would always harp on "good pruning" and cleaning
> 
> I didnt get it. I thought "pruning" was all about looks and didnt see how that was going to help Joe Blow's algae and stunted plants. But they kept on saying it.
> 
> Now I understand they were talking about old ratty growth, anything thats dead or dying. Removing all that.


That's funny Joe. 

I remember when I first started out, I was also reading Barr.......and Vin Kutty......and YOUR 75g OG journal!

Much like you, took some time to sink in. But one thing I noticed. When things went downhill and algae crept up, I don't remember anyone rushing to increase/lower ferts. It was always the same.....time for some grunt work......trim, vac, clean filters, water change. 

As you have said many times, one of the best defenses against algae is uber clean conditions.


----------



## gjcarew

You are completely blowing my mind with using the spray bottles underwater. I had no idea they worked underwater!

Related to what Greggz said, I used to think I had a clean aquarium until I started looking at how Tom Barr, Filipe Oliveira, George Famer and some of the folks on this board maintain their tanks. It's not even that much work, but going through the extra steps to make sure the filter is clean, substrate is clean, old growth is trimmed, cleaning lily pipes, etc. makes a huge difference in how healthy the plants are and how the tank looks overall. It's so satisfying too!


----------



## zmartin

burr740 said:


> I have peroxide and glut in separate bottles just because sometimes I want one or the other. Here's my little glut bottle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A 50/50 mix in the same bottle works too, I think Greggz and a few others around here do that.



Great post - thanks for sharing - there’s going to be a run on little spray bottles.

A question if I may. I realise you explained the relative dangers of peroxide and glut but do you use them interchangeably or do they have specific purposes when using?



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## burr740

zmartin said:


> Great post - thanks for sharing - there’s going to be a run on little spray bottles.
> 
> A question if I may. I realise you explained the relative dangers of peroxide and glut but do you use them interchangeably or do they have specific purposes when using?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Haha. I havent found one to be more effective than the other for killing algae. They both do a good job on most types. There's no specific thing I use one or the other for, except to avoid something like excel in a shrimp tank or too much peroxide through a running filter.


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## burr740

It was a pretty good week for plants in the Dutch after the big clean. Most look nice and perky with no new algae. It still showed up on the front glass by the end of the week 










Here's last week's FTS










This week










I gave the sub another good surface vac. There was a lot of stuff left over from last week's cleaning that had resettled. Also dosing 30 ML of Metricide daily

As long as the plants are growing well there's not much to worry about. Get everything clean and keep it that way. Trim the bad parts away as new growth comes in. Will just take a little time.

Here's a fish pic


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## Grobbins48

Joe- is that 30mL of met I to the 75? I ask because I am finally digging out of my algae issues, but stopped using metracide over a month ago.

Can see the hygro really filled in over the week!


----------



## kookyxogirl

burr740 said:


> It was a pretty good week for plants in the Dutch after the big cleaning. Most look nice and perky with no new algae. It still showed up on the front glass by the end of the week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's last week's FTS
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This week
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I gave the sub another good surface vac. There was a lot of stuff left over from last week's cleaning that had resettled. Also dosing 30 ML of Metricide daily
> 
> As long as the plants are growing well there's not much to worry about. Get everything clean and keep it that way. Trim the bad parts away as new growth comes in. Will just take a little time.
> 
> Here's a fish pic




Your tanks are absolutely stunning! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> Joe- is that 30mL of met I to the 75? I ask because I am finally digging out of my algae issues, but stopped using metracide over a month ago.


30 ML of straight metricide into the 75 gallon tank. Thats equal to about 48 ML of Excel.



Grobbins48 said:


> Can see the hygro really filled in over the week!


Yeah Balsamica is lovin life atm, 53B.... not so much










It actually looks worse in person. The stems are gone at the bottom, only roots holding it down and Im pretty sure this isnt helping it grow nice. It needs replanting but Im gonna wait a couple of weeks and see if it can come back from here or at least get some better growth to replant.

If it doesnt get better in a hurry I'll toss these scraps and start with fresh healthy stems. 










Probably should do that anyway...


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> 30 ML of straight metricide into the 75 gallon tank. Thats equal to about 48 ML of Excel.


I know we have talked this topic at length across the forum, but just wanted to dive in a bit more if you don't mind.

I saw the 30mL and it shocked me a bit- With Met14 being 2.6% vs. Excel 1.5% Glut, the daily dose/ 50 gallons of Excel is 5mL, Met14 is 3mL. Typically people double the dose for algae, correct? So 10mL and 6mL respectively/ 50 gallons. So for, say 70 gallons a double strength daily dose would be ~14mL Excel and ~8.4mL of Met14. If I am thinking of this the right way, you are dosing ~4x the amount of the 'daily' dose? 

How long have you been running this to combat the current situation, and how long do you think you will run it? I ask because when I went heavier (relative) with Met14 in the past I felt like I shocked my bio filter and had a little bloom (I do have an extremly heavy fish load with those bows thought!), but I could be wrong- I don't think I have gone this heavy in the past.

Just curious to learn more on all of this! Thanks Burr!


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> I know we have talked this topic at length across the forum, but just wanted to dive in a bit more if you don't mind.
> 
> I saw the 30mL and it shocked me a bit- With Met14 being 2.6% vs. Excel 1.5% Glut, the daily dose/ 50 gallons of Excel is 5mL, Met14 is 3mL. Typically people double the dose for algae, correct? So 10mL and 6mL respectively/ 50 gallons. So for, say 70 gallons a double strength daily dose would be ~14mL Excel and ~8.4mL of Met14. If I am thinking of this the right way, you are dosing ~4x the amount of the 'daily' dose?
> 
> How long have you been running this to combat the current situation, and how long do you think you will run it? I ask because when I went heavier (relative) with Met14 in the past I felt like I shocked my bio filter and had a little bloom (I do have an extremly heavy fish load with those bows thought!), but I could be wrong- I don't think I have gone this heavy in the past.
> 
> Just curious to learn more on all of this! Thanks Burr!


Its roughly the same as Seachem's post-water change dose for Excel, which is 1 ml per 2 gal, probably a little more if you do the math.

That's been my standard treatment dose for a while. The longest Ive ever run that daily is probably 2-3 weeks. Ive never noticed an issue with the bio filter, doesnt mean there isnt one. I've sparked a mini-cycle using more in the past, dont remember the dosage but it was a lot.

I do remember you having an issue and I thought you might be dosing too much excel. Seems like you were adding considerably more than this?


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> 30 ML of straight metricide into the 75 gallon tank. Thats equal to about 48 ML of Excel.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah Balsamica is lovin life atm, 53B.... not so much


Yeah that 53B seems pretty temperamental. I don't know what sets it off, but it seems like it doesn't take much.

Interesting on the glut dosing. I haven't "dosed" it in quite a long time. I did back a long time ago, but when I stopped I saw no noticeable difference in anything.

So are you pretty certain it's helping with the algae outbreak? Or could it be the tank would get better in a few weeks regardless as it comes back into better balance? Or does the algae have you peeved and you are trying the everything but the kitchen sink approach?

And the next question is do you think there is any benefit to plant health/growth outside of any algae reduction? I haven't revisited glut in quite a while, as I came to a conclusion in my tank that is was making no difference at all.

Would be interesting to see a real experiment on this some time, but it would be very difficult to set up two tanks with identical conditions.


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Its roughly the same as Seachem's post-water change dose for Excel, which is 1 ml per 2 gal, probably a little more if you do the math.
> 
> That's been my standard treatment dose for a while. The longest Ive ever run that daily is probably 2-3 weeks. Ive never noticed an issue with the bio filter, doesnt mean there isnt one. I've sparked a mini-cycle using more in the past, dont remember the dosage but it was a lot.
> 
> I do remember you having an issue and I thought you might be dosing too much excel. Seems like you were adding considerably more than this?


Interesting. I was doing 15mL in a 55 for 3 or so weeks in summer of 2018. That is like 20mL in the 75. I have learned a lot since then, and the cloudy water a few weeks back I feel is unrelated to the met14.

I just clicked to 10mL in the 75/ day to help pull through- I feel like there is light!


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Yeah that 53B seems pretty temperamental. I don't know what sets it off, but it seems like it doesn't take much.
> 
> Interesting on the glut dosing. I haven't "dosed" it in quite a long time. I did back a long time ago, but when I stopped I saw no noticeable difference in anything.
> 
> So are you pretty certain it's helping with the algae outbreak? Or could it be the tank would get better in a few weeks regardless as it comes back into better balance? Or does the algae have you peeved and you are trying the everything but the kitchen sink approach?
> 
> And the next question is do you think there is any benefit to plant health/growth outside of any algae reduction? I haven't revisited glut in quite a while, as I came to a conclusion in my tank that is was making no difference at all.
> 
> Would be interesting to see a real experiment on this some time, but it would be very difficult to set up two tanks with identical conditions.



I just use it when there's an algae problem to help beat it down while the issue gets corrected. I dont think it does much for plants that are already getting real co2 in a high tech tank. Ive never noticed it help plant growth, per se. Low-tech is a different story of course


----------



## Quint

Get some cory cats in there, those guys keep the mulm from building up and in the filter. Tank is looking great. Both the plants and fishes look super happy.


----------



## burr740

Two weeks later: Algae is receding everywhere but the front glass, had the same amount as last week. But the plants are doing a great job of cleaning themselves up, which doesnt always happen. Usually you have to prune away leaves with algae as new and hopefully clean growth comes in. 

This algae is disappearing before my eyes. (love it when that happens!) Glut and peroxide are doing their work but it wouldn't be going like this if the plants were still struggling. Happy thriving plants are the best algaecide. 

This is post water change (doing about 80%). All I did this week was spray things down with glut/peroxide, light surface vac and wipe the glass. 










Rugosa is pretty much clean now, it had a lot to begin with if you recall the initial pic. These are the same leaves. L aromatica is bouncing back pretty good. It didnt get a ton of algae like some others, it had started growing poorly and kinda stunted there for a minute. 










Purple stauro isnt very purple but its putting out nice new growth and cleaning up well. Still some on the older Crypt leaves, probably have to pull those off at some point.










Hygro 53B is no better, maybe getting worse. No surprise here really, I'll change these out sometime










Lud rubin isnt very red either, but it's virtually all clean now. It was another one that had it bad to begin with










Those Buces stuck around in the sub are the future background, just growing them out until I get around to putting the wall back in. 'Arrogant Blue'. Surprisingly they've stayed algae free this whole time. This is about the light. I have some in the 20H too and check out what a difference one bulb can make.

Both tanks have the exact same bulbs in the exact same order. Except the 75 has an ATI purp for the blues and the 20 has an actinic. 

Front to back

Plantmax 3000K
ATI purp / 420 actinic
Powerveg 633
Giesemann super flor










Compare those to the ones above in the 75. 

The one other thing that's different is the light on the 20 has only one reflector for all 4 bulbs and the 75 of course has individual. Idk if that makes any difference in how the colors look, maybe the light blends together different or something. 

Fascinating right?


----------



## Grobbins48

That rotala looks completely different in those two tanks. And just a purple vs. 420? Pretty nuts. What one do you prefer?

Great recovery story and thanks again for sharing. I am going to try some underwater spraying on a few species tomorrow as well.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Compare those to the ones above in the 75.
> 
> The one other thing that's different is the light on the 20 has only one reflector for all 4 bulbs and the 75 of course has individual. Idk if that makes any difference in how the colors look, maybe the light blends together different or something.
> 
> Fascinating right?


Well whatever it is, that blue/purple looks freakin' awesome!

Besides the color of bulbs, could it also be the PAR each plant is getting? Assume that the bulbs in the 75G are further away from the substrate than the 20G?

And nice job on the recovery. Not surprising a little elbow grease cleaned things up quick.


----------



## Greggz

Grobbins48 said:


> That rotala looks completely different in those two tanks. And just a purple vs. 420? Pretty nuts. What one do you prefer?


When I compared the Purple vs. the 420 in my tank it had very little impact.

But that being said, that was with 6 bulbs....maybe more impact with four?

Only one way to find out....swap them bulbs and see if the color follows.


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> That rotala looks completely different in those two tanks. And just a purple vs. 420? Pretty nuts. What one do you prefer?


I prefer the actinic by a long shot. Between these two tanks dont you? The only 48" actinic I have is in the new tank and this ati is only a few months old. I'll swap them out before competition time rolls around this fall or when I get tired of looking at it.



Greggz said:


> Well whatever it is, that blue/purple looks freakin' awesome!


Yeah they are stunning under the right light. Would make a great foreground plant but then I'd have to go with moss on the wall, or a distinctly different Buce variety. Decisions, decisions ...



Greggz said:


> Besides the color of bulbs, could it also be the PAR each plant is getting? Assume that the bulbs in the 75G are further away from the substrate than the 20G?


Thats a good observation. PAR in the 20 is about 95 at the sub, the 75 is 120. But the buces in the 75 are somewhat shaded so they arent getting that much, probably less than the ones front and center in the 20. 

But there's one way to find out! I took a clump from the Dutch and put it beside these in the 20, the two in the back right closest to the AR. 










So its definitely the color of the bulbs. They are growing the same "color" in both tanks, it just looks different under different lights



Greggz said:


> When I compared the Purple vs. the 420 in my tank it had very little impact.
> 
> But that being said, that was with 6 bulbs....maybe more impact with four?


Yes with only 4 bulbs it makes a far greater impact. Its 25% of the light


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> I prefer the actinic by a long shot. Dont you? The only 48" I have is in the new tank and this ati is only a few months old. I'll swap them out before competition time rolls around this fall or when I get tired of looking at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah they are stunning under the right light. Would make a great foreground plant but then I'd have to go with moss on the wall, or a distinctly different Buce variety. Decisions, decisions ...
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a good observation. PAR in the 20 is about 95 at the sub, the 75 is 120. But the buces in the 75 are somewhat shaded so they arent getting that much, probably less than the ones front and center in the 20.
> 
> But there's one way to find out! I took a clump from the Dutch and put it beside these in the 20, the two in the back right closest to the AR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah its definitely the color of the bulbs. They are growing the same "color" in both tanks, it just looks different under different lights
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, with only 4 bulbs it makes a far greater impact.


I do prefer the 420, for sure! Still have not ordered one up, but I will.

As to PAR, I am surprised it is that high in the 75 based on where I land running 5 bulbs in mine (around 100 now, I'll double check tomorrow). Always interesting!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> But there's one way to find out! I took a clump from the Dutch and put it beside these in the 20, the two in the back right closest to the AR.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah its definitely the color of the bulbs. They are growing the same "color" in both tanks, it just looks different under different lights
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, with only 4 bulbs it makes a far greater impact.


Yep that just goes to show the power of the color of light.

And by the way, under any light that Buce looks great!


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> As to PAR, I am surprised it is that high in the 75 based on where I land running 5 bulbs in mine (around 100 now, I'll double check tomorrow). Always interesting!


Wait a sec you're right! I was thinking of the new 75 which is about 120 at the sub w/6 bulbs. The Dutch is still around 100


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Wait a sec you're right! I was thinking of the new 75 which is about 120 at the sub w/6 bulbs. The Dutch is still around 100


Ah got it, makes sense now!

Is the new 75 running 6 bulbs?


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> Ah got it, makes sense now!
> 
> Is the new 75 running 6 bulbs?


Yup, except the rear bulb isnt really over the tank because the unit is so wide. It more or less shines down behind the tank

Two 3000K, Agromax pure par, 420 actinic, PV 660, and a Truelumen Flora


----------



## burr740

Also you guys remember my PAR meter is a DIY converted lux meter from Hoppy circa 2015.

Its consistent and gives me a good point of reference, which is all I really need it for, but it may not be entirely accurate.


----------



## Streetwise

Tron740


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Also you guys remember my PAR meter is a DIY converted lux meter from Hoppy circa 2015.
> 
> Its consistent and gives me a good point of reference, which is all I really need it for, but it may not be entirely accurate.


Joe I have to send you the Seneye........would love to see how the Hoppy meter held up. My guess is actually pretty good.....but would be interesting to see.


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Also you guys remember my PAR meter is a DIY converted lux meter from Hoppy circa 2015.
> 
> Its consistent and gives me a good point of reference, which is all I really need it for, but it may not be entirely accurate.


Ahhhhhh... got it! Before my time on the forum, so I must have missed this little detail!

Would be nice to see vs. the Seneye.


----------



## zlodx

How do u do water changes? Do u adding k2so4 to the changed water?


----------



## burr740

zlodx said:


> How do u do water changes? Do u adding k2so4 to the changed water?


I use all tap water. On water change day I drain and fill, then dose Mg for GH (tap has plenty of Ca) and the first macro dose for the week. I used to add K2SO4 along with the Mg but Im running less K these days, so I just add a ppm or two to the macros bottle. Any more becomes hard to dissolve 

My dosing routine is macros and micros on alternating days, each one 3x week. Same as the the typical EI routine as far as frequency and water changes.

Hopefully that answered your question.


----------



## zlodx

Thank you!


----------



## burr740

Went to my CO2 place today to refill a couple of tanks. While I was there picked up two extra 20 lb to have for spare just in case it becomes hard to get. Just renting these two, $9 ea per month. At that price why not right? Should be good for about year now.

The CO2 place is a pretty big outfit, gas and cylinder company. They're only doing curbside service. The only way to get anything is to already have an account and call in what you want. They'll have it ready outside when you get there.

She told me on the phone "the 20s arent pretty but they're aluminum with a handle". Because she knows I gripe if they arent clean and pretty. Told her we'd let it slide this time considering...

So I might be wiping my ass with a bare hand pretty soon but at least the plants will have CO2!










Better stock up!


----------



## ipkiss

hoarder.


----------



## burr740

Ludwigia glandulosa that Ive had for a couple of months. Grew this plant a long time ago but not recently. Looking pretty good, probably gonna try it in the Dutch where the rubin is now. It should do fine in sand, most Ludwigias do


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Ludwigia glandulosa that Ive had for a couple of months. Grew this plant a long time ago but not recently. Looking pretty good, probably gonna try it in the Dutch where the rubin is now. It should do fine in sand, most Ludwigias do


It looks really good! I have done fine with it in sand in the past. Struggling with the one stem that I had left, but that is because I stunted it a month or more ago. I always tend to do really well with this one for a few months before stunting it. Strange....


----------



## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> It looks really good! I have done fine with it in sand in the past. Struggling with the one stem that I had left, but that is because I stunted it a month or more ago. I always tend to do really well with this one for a few months before stunting it. Strange....


One of the big differences Ive noticed between soil and sand is things like that tend to not happen. Ive dealt with it regularly over the years with various species in the sand tanks, something that's been fine for a long time will start sputtering or go south for no apparent reason. 

Of course its easy to blame everything on the substrate but I dont see much of that happening in the soil tanks


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> One of the big differences Ive noticed between soil and sand is things like that tend to not happen. Ive dealt with it regularly over the years with various species in the sand tanks, something that's been fine for a long time will start sputtering or go south for no apparent reason.
> 
> Of course its easy to blame everything on the substrate but I dont see much of that happening in the soil tanks


You and Gregg both have me wanting to try some sort of soil in my 40 breeder! Perhaps when things settle down I will. I just added light CO2 to it today, so adding soil this summer may be the next step.


----------



## burr740

Dutch update: Algae on the front glass drastically reduced this week for the first time. There was still some, enough to be annoying but this is a very good sign that things are getting right.

Pics from today, last day of the week before tomorrow's water change. Havent wiped the glass or anything. Also havent dosed glut since the last WC, kinda forgot about it tbh










Leopard vals on the far left have took a beating from all the glut (Excel for anyone who still doesnt know). They'll come back. Even with continued daily dosing they'd still come back with new adapted growth. It would take a couple of months. Several current leaves are going through a melt. Thats what happens when its adapting, existing leaves slowly melt while new ones come in. Its the kinda thing you dont want in the system, melting leaves, but Im just leaving them alone for now.

If you notice a difference in hygro balsamica, I pinched all the main tops of a few days ago. Everything you see now is new side branches. There's only like 5-6 main stems

Trying to get a side shot here of the glass algae, such as it is. None of these pics have had the glass wiped. So its not too bad, just enough to mess with the clarity of a full tank pic










Purple stauro is about the only plant with some algae still, older leaves. It's been the slowest plant to rebound. Couple days ago I gave the group 12-13 single balls of O+, might help kick start it a little bit










Hygro 53B is trying its best not to get tossed. "We'll come back nice! We promise!! See!" This is a big change form last week when I thought it was actually getting worse.










No issues here. Lobelia is virtually spotless now and goias never really had a problem the whole time.










Ludwigia rubin is looking better. You can tell its getting over something because its branching from every node. Normally Id just cut these down to 6"-8" stumps and let it start over. Keep any nice new stuff thats long enough to replant. May still do that and hold off on the glandulosa.










Probably wont do much this WC as far as trimming and rearranging. I do have a few plans for over the next week or two.

As for Excel/peroxide. Will continue to spray everything down at WC time. Its not a bad idea even when things are going well. No more daily dosing though, there's no real need for it.


----------



## damnmosquitoes

burr740 said:


> Grobbins48 said:
> 
> 
> 
> It looks really good! I have done fine with it in sand in the past. Struggling with the one stem that I had left, but that is because I stunted it a month or more ago. I always tend to do really well with this one for a few months before stunting it. Strange....
> 
> 
> 
> One of the big differences Ive noticed between soil and sand is things like that tend to not happen. Ive dealt with it regularly over the years with various species in the sand tanks, something that's been fine for a long time will start sputtering or go south for no apparent reason.
> 
> Of course its easy to blame everything on the substrate but I dont see much of that happening in the soil tanks
Click to expand...

How many inches of substrate do you have in the front and back for this tank?


----------



## burr740

damnmosquitoes said:


> How many inches of substrate do you have in the front and back for this tank?


The substrate in every tank is flat, approximately the same depth in front as in the back. I like about 2.5"-3", in reality most are 2"-2.5". 

A couple of the sand tanks, including the Dutch 75 has about 1.5"-2". You lose some depth over time skimming the surface with a vacuum hose, especially with sand. I really need to add more sand to a couple of tanks just havent got around to doing it.


----------



## plantedman

Nice Tank!, Did you put any laterite or root tabs before you put Black Diamond Blasting Sand? I am thinking of doing a setup now, i picked up Medium BDB sand from Tractor supply.


----------



## burr740

plantedman said:


> Nice Tank!, Did you put any laterite or root tabs before you put Black Diamond Blasting Sand? I am thinking of doing a setup now, i picked up Medium BDB sand from Tractor supply.


Laterite sounds like a good idea but Ive never tried it. I usually start sand tanks out with a layer of O+. Then I usually dont add any more for like months, or sometimes ever it just depends on what happens. Usually down the road I just add some here and there if something happens to be struggling.

Best way I found to do it is to start with about 1/4" of sand, or just enough to cover the bottom. Then sprinkle the O+, then top it off with the rest of the sand. That first layer keeps the balls from rolling around when you put the rest in. 

This is a little too much, use about half this much, or two thirds.










If you use too much you'll get green water anytime you disturbed it for the first few months. Doesnt matter how fast you do a water change afterwards. It wont be an issue if you never uproot anything. But with a lot of stems or stuff you'll be moving around a lot, use less than whats in the picture


----------



## plantedman

burr740 said:


> Laterite sounds like a good idea but Ive never tried it. I usually start sand tanks out with a layer of O+. Then I usually dont add any more for like months, or sometimes ever it just depends on what happens. Usually down the road I just add some here and there if something happens to be struggling.
> 
> Best way I found to do it is to start with about 1/4" of sand, or just enough to cover the bottom. Then sprinkle the O+, then top it off with the rest of the sand. That first layer keeps the balls from rolling around when you put the rest in.
> 
> This is a little too much, use about half this much, or two thirds.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you use too much you'll get green water anytime you disturbed it for the first few months. Doesnt matter how fast you do a water change afterwards. It wont be an issue if you never uproot anything much. But with a lot of stems or stuff you'll be moving around a lot, use less than whats in the picture


Thankyou for the info!. O+ will it harm fishes? Can you tell me which specific O+ should i get?


----------



## burr740

plantedman said:


> Thankyou for the info!. O+ will it harm fishes? Can you tell me which specific O+ should i get?


Ive never seen a negative affect with fish or neocardina shrimp. I dont generally have any sensitive species so cant really say about that.

Osomocote 'Plus' has macros and micros. Thats what I use. The regular only has macros


----------



## plantedman

burr740 said:


> Ive never seen a negative affect with fish or neocardina shrimp. I dont generally have any sensitive species so cant really say about that.
> 
> Osomocote 'Plus' has macros and micros. Thats what I use. The regular only has macros


Sure Thankyou!, I will start my setup work soon..


----------



## damnmosquitoes

burr740 said:


> damnmosquitoes said:
> 
> 
> 
> How many inches of substrate do you have in the front and back for this tank?
> 
> 
> 
> The substrate in every tank is flat, approximately the same depth in front as in the back. I like about 2.5"-3", in reality most are 2"-2.5".
> 
> A couple of the sand tanks, including the Dutch 75 has about 1.5"-2". You lose some depth over time skimming the surface with a vacuum hose, especially with sand. I really need to add more sand to a couple of tanks just havent got around to doing it.
Click to expand...

BDBS is pretty cheap and easy to plant in. Do you like it more than aquasoil? Aquasoils break down into mush eventually and nutrients wear out so would sand with root tabs and liquid fertilizers be sufficient enough for plants? And by skim the sand do you mean hover the siphon over the top or actually put the siphon in a little and vacuum the top layers?


----------



## burr740

damnmosquitoes said:


> BDBS is pretty cheap and easy to plant in. Do you like it more than aquasoil? Aquasoils break down into mush eventually and nutrients wear out so would sand with root tabs and liquid fertilizers be sufficient enough for plants?


Ive never been able to duplicate the plant growing ability of soils with sand, regardless. Adding root tabs/O+, dropping the KH, both help, but its still not the same. Im not sure exactly why..

Even the 50 gal with 2.5 yr old aquasoil still grows plants that wont grow in sand. And this was a terrible batch of ada as, extremely dusty and somewhat breaking down from day one. The bottom inch or so right now is complete mud. Still grows the heck out of plants.

As for nutrients expiring, the only one that really expires is the NH4 it comes loaded with, and granted that's a biggie. but everything else will still be there due to the cec (ad/absorbing from the water column) That is, as long as the water column is being doesed. Folks that low-dose or no-dose aquasoil tanks, yeah it will eventually expire. 



damnmosquitoes said:


> And by skim the sand do you mean hover the siphon over the top or actually put the siphon in a little and vacuum the top layers?


As part of routine weekly maintenance just skim the surface. Sometimes a deep vac is called for, good to do that maybe once a year. For this you'll need a bigger tube on the end like a python attachment. Cant do it with just a small tube because it will suck the sand out instead of dropping it back down.

Good username btw, lol


----------



## damnmosquitoes

burr740 said:


> Ive never been able to duplicate the plant growing ability of soils with sand, regardless. Adding root tabs/O+, dropping the KH, both help, but its still not the same. Im not sure exactly why..


Haha thanks. I always went on these forums for information but never had an account so decided to make one. And my username was influenced by a certain week where I kept getting bit. Those damn pests.

In your experience, despite the higher growth rates of aquasoil, did your plants in sand grow just as lush looking as the ones in aquasoil?


----------



## burr740

damnmosquitoes said:


> In your experience, despite the higher growth rates of aquasoil, did your plants in sand grow just as lush looking as the ones in aquasoil?


Yeah I wasnt really talking about the rates of growth but how well. Soils produce better specimens in almost everything. Even stuff that grows fine in sand tends to be fatter and nicer in soil. The growth rate is not always faster though. In fact usually not much difference as far as that goes.


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Soils produce better specimens in almost everything. Even stuff that grows fine in sand tends to be fatter and nicer in soil.


I hope you are right!

Testing that theory right now!:grin2:


----------



## burr740

Good example I just happened to be looking at. This is the best Hygro 53B gets in sand. Really nice specimens with perfectly shaped leaves.










Here it is in the Landen 75. Same perfect growth but with leaves twice as big. And...it doesnt pout every time the wind blows like it's prone to do in sand.










Idk if you can grasp the difference from these pics but the ones in soil are bigger than your hand, in sand they're about a softball's diameter.

Split a Hygro compact the other day and boy did it turn colors. This is the 20 gal with the crappy led light. I'd put a few under some good light if they'd stay this way but they'll revert back to green in a few days, week or two.










^if it looks like clado at the Java fern's base that's Fissidens coming out


----------



## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Split a Hygro compact the other day and boy did it turn colors. This is the 20 gal with the crappy led light. I'd put a few under some good light if they'd stay this way but they'll revert back to green in a few days, week or two.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^if it looks like clado at the Java fern's base that's Fissidens coming out


It would be really cool if the color would stay. When I split I get this gorgeous burnt orange color. Looks absolutely unbelieveable that way.


----------



## burr740

Posted this on FB might as well put it here too. :red_mouth

The farm tanks usually stay butchered from selling but occasionally one fills in enough to look decent for a minute. 


























75 Gal
Landen soil
6x T5HO
KH 0-1
GH ~6
Per week: 15 NO3, 1.2 NH4, 6 PO4, 20 K, .5 Fe via custom micros
70% weekly WC


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## Grobbins48

Is that the pink variety of hygrophila araguaia??

I am always in awe seeing so many healthy and algae free plants!


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## Greggz

Might be the nicest dang farm tank on the planet!

Is that L. Senegalensis on the right side? If so, good grower? Fast? Slow? Looks like it stays vertical which is nice.

And good to see you still have the Cabomba Furcata. I take it likes the soil? Might have to work with that one again some time......very good looking plant.

I see the R. Tulunadensis has formed a nice bush......but I guess I could say that about everything....bunch of happy healthy plants there. As always, very well done!


----------



## zivvel

Six years ago, a consecutive pair of great TPT Journal Threads was begun. I started reading them a few weeks ago, and I can now say I have read every word. And I've read several linked threads (some full, some partial) including Vin's Rotala Kill Tank / nuclear-powered substrate thread over on BR as well as the Custom Micros thread here on TPT.

burr, thank you for sharing your lessons learned and your amazing tanks with this community. Thank you also to the many contributors here, including others pitching in with their own experiments.

Personally, I'm going through a reboot of my tanking hobby, and my skills are as great as ever before: I can grow algae better & faster than anyone I know. Cyano beat me down a few years ago, and I mostly gave up. I have a new outlook, though, and a lot more information.

Have you messed with Fluval Stratum at all? If so, can you compare it to Landen soil? I have Stratum in a 20L, but I like the sound of Landen (KH reduction, darker color, smaller size, heavier?).


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## damnmosquitoes

burr740 said:


> Idk if you can grasp the difference from these pics but the ones in soil are bigger than your hand, in sand they're about a softball's diameter.


Dang that's a huge difference. I guess the substrate is just as important as co2 lights and ferts. Completely changes the health and appearance of the plants. Is this because bdbs has no nutrients? Or more so because aquasoil has a better CEC? Correct me I'm probably wrong, better CEC means nutrients in water gets used up better by the roots?

Before I saw the comparison pictures your tank with bdbs looked nice to me already so I thought oh well it'll suffice. Now I'm deciding if I should take everything out and restart it. On the bright side I shouldn't have to wash the aquasoil and throw it straight in. My concern is though how long the life of the product would be. Do you think it's a good idea to take it out once it turns to mud? And does it get messy when uprooting plants in muddy soils?


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## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> Is that the pink variety of hygrophila araguaia??
> 
> I am always in awe seeing so many healthy and algae free plants!


Thanks! Yes that's Hygrophila araguaia 'chai' Had it two months tomorrow, will post comparisons sometime, its pretty slow



Greggz said:


> Might be the nicest dang farm tank on the planet!
> 
> Is that L. Senegalensis on the right side? If so, good grower? Fast? Slow? Looks like it stays vertical which is nice.
> 
> And good to see you still have the Cabomba Furcata. I take it likes the soil? Might have to work with that one again some time......very good looking plant.
> 
> I see the R. Tulunadensis has formed a nice bush......but I guess I could say that about everything....bunch of happy healthy plants there. As always, very well done!


Haha thanks Gregg.

Furcata is one thats happier in soil. More robust and the internodes are generally shorter. Always grows a bit leggy for me in sand. Still can be nice though. In sand it need heavier Fe/micros to look good (we both found that out) In soil it doesnt seem to matter as much

Yes Ludwigia senegalensis. Its one of my favorite plants. Grows about like Lud sp red. About the same difficulty and speed. Also like sp red its quick to pout if its not happy but recovers quickly and damn near impossible to kill. Does fine in sand, easier grows a little better in soil












zivvel said:


> Six years ago, a consecutive pair of great TPT Journal Threads was begun. I started reading them a few weeks ago, and I can now say I have read every word. And I've read several linked threads (some full, some partial) including Vin's Rotala Kill Tank / nuclear-powered substrate thread over on BR as well as the Custom Micros thread here on TPT.
> 
> burr, thank you for sharing your lessons learned and your amazing tanks with this community. Thank you also to the many contributors here, including others pitching in with their own experiments.
> 
> Personally, I'm going through a reboot of my tanking hobby, and my skills are as great as ever before: I can grow algae better & faster than anyone I know. Cyano beat me down a few years ago, and I mostly gave up. I have a new outlook, though, and a lot more information.
> 
> Have you messed with Fluval Stratum at all? If so, can you compare it to Landen soil? I have Stratum in a 20L, but I like the sound of Landen (KH reduction, darker color, smaller size, heavier?).


Wow that's one of the nicest things Ive ever heard! Thank you for saying that. There's definitely some great info between all those threads you mentioned. Pretty much everything a person needs to know I would imagine.

Ive never used Stratum and dont know anything about it really.

Good luck with starting up again. Make a journal so we can all share in your journey. Doesnt have to be a show stopper, some of the best journals around are folks just starting out.  



damnmosquitoes said:


> Dang that's a huge difference. I guess the substrate is just as important as co2 lights and ferts. Completely changes the health and appearance of the plants. Is this because bdbs has no nutrients? Or more so because aquasoil has a better CEC? Correct me I'm probably wrong, better CEC means nutrients in water gets used up better by the roots?
> 
> Before I saw the comparison pictures your tank with bdbs looked nice to me already so I thought oh well it'll suffice. Now I'm deciding if I should take everything out and restart it. On the bright side I shouldn't have to wash the aquasoil and throw it straight in. My concern is though how long the life of the product would be. Do you think it's a good idea to take it out once it turns to mud? And does it get messy when uprooting plants in muddy soils?


CEC is one of the big differences in soils and inert subs. Certain nutrients bind with soils and then become available at the roots. Cations mainly hence the C in CEC. It also pulls these nutrients out of the water column in the process. To what degree Im really not sure, depends on the nutrient and the degree of cec. These soils also have a strong effect on PO4 especially in the beginning. That's not exactly due to cec, Ive seen it explained why but I dont remember exactly what it is that happens. 

When soils start breaking down it gets really dusty pulling something up. In the 50 with 2.5 yr old ada, there's no way I could make a Dutch scape. Uproot just one group and have to wait 20 minutes to even see what you're doing again.

If it was my only tank it would be time to change it out for that reason. But it still grows plants very well, as long as it does that Im not gonna mess with it. And remember it was a bad batch to begin with. Abnormally dusty and starting to crumble from day one. 

Not sure how long Landen will hold up. The oldest I have is about 1.5 yr and it hasnt changed one bit. Practically zero dust, not much different than working with sand


----------



## gjcarew

burr740 said:


> Dutch update: Algae on the front glass drastically reduced this week for the first time. There was still some, enough to be annoying but this is a very good sign that things are getting right.
> 
> Pics from today, last day of the week before tomorrow's water change. Havent wiped the glass or anything. Also havent dosed glut since the last WC, kinda forgot about it tbh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Leopard vals on the far left have took a beating from all the glut (Excel for anyone who still doesnt know). They'll come back. Even with continued daily dosing they'd still come back with new adapted growth. It would take a couple of months. Several current leaves are going through a melt. Thats what happens when its adapting, existing leaves slowly melt while new ones come in. Its the kinda thing you dont want in the system, melting leaves, but Im just leaving them alone for now.
> 
> If you notice a difference in hygro balsamica, I pinched all the main tops of a few days ago. Everything you see now is new side branches. There's only like 5-6 main stems
> 
> Trying to get a side shot here of the glass algae, such as it is. None of these pics have had the glass wiped. So its not too bad, just enough to mess with the clarity of a full tank pic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Purple stauro is about the only plant with some algae still, older leaves. It's been the slowest plant to rebound. Couple days ago I gave the group 12-13 single balls of O+, might help kick start it a little bit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hygro 53B is trying its best not to get tossed. "We'll come back nice! We promise!! See!" This is a big change form last week when I thought it was actually getting worse.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No issues here. Lobelia is virtually spotless now and goias never really had a problem the whole time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ludwigia rubin is looking better. You can tell its getting over something because its branching from every node. Normally Id just cut these down to 6"-8" stumps and let it start over. Keep any nice new stuff thats long enough to replant. May still do that and hold off on the glandulosa.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably wont do much this WC as far as trimming and rearranging. I do have a few plans for over the next week or two.
> 
> As for Excel/peroxide. Will continue to spray everything down at WC time. Its not a bad idea even when things are going well. No more daily dosing though, there's no real need for it.


I noticed you have a moss background in your competition photos, but not here. Do you only keep it in temporarily? Is it in a farm tank for the time being or do you just grow out a new one when the time comes? I'm trying to set one up but there is a definite dearth of information on the subject.


----------



## burr740

gjcarew said:


> I noticed you have a moss background in your competition photos, but not here. Do you only keep it in temporarily? Is it in a farm tank for the time being or do you just grow out a new one when the time comes? I'm trying to set one up but there is a definite dearth of information on the subject.


 I switched from moss to Buces a couple years ago, after the 2017 tank. No particular reason just wanted something different. Planning to do mini xmas in a 20H, its still growing out atm. I usually leave whatever it is in there all the time. Last years Buces were too big, wound up selling most of it and took the panels out until I go back with something else, going with a different kind this year. 

Here's an article I wrote on Barr report showing the build step by step. The panels can pop right out and back in whenever you want.

https://barrreport.com/articles/how-to-build-an-easily-removable-moss-wall.44/

Its funny you asked about the wall because I'd just stuck a small panel of Buces that's been growing in another tank in here for a test look. Id like like to use one that's more green this time. They dont look green right now because of the rear bulb directly overhead. I'll need to change that to another one to make the green pop nice.












These are mini coin, or at least I thought they were until about 6 months ago when a few started to grow bigger. Not sure what they are really. Not the best specimens in the world right now but they'll perk up. The main thing they need is to be cut apart and spread out. That'll help tremendously. Havent touched these in probably a year. They've been in a forgotten corner under fairly low light

The thing about Buces is they grow out towards the front. They dont spread across the wall. You have to really keep them pruned back or they'll soon be sticking out 6" and shading whats underneath, like these are now. It gets worse with a bigger species










I could probably do a wall with Anubias nana petite by Sept. Have a couple pretty big clumps already and it grows pretty fast under strong light. That'd be some popping green! 

For attaching Buces or other plants I use 4" zip ties around the plant, leave the tail hanging out and it slides right into the perforation holes of the panel. Easy to add more as you prune, move them around just right, etc


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## burr740

Hygrophila araguaia 'chai' two months growth.

Jan 30, just arrived and planted










Yesterday










I think that's a little diatom algae or maybe just soil dust you can see on the leaves. Didnt even notice it until seeing the pic. It wiped off easily so whatever  

Dutch recovery update coming...


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## gjcarew

I do love the buce wall. I'm working on a mini Christmas moss wall right now, which is why I asked! It seems like using something bright green like Anubias nana "petite" on the back wall could "flatten" the perspective of the tank, no?

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


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## Grobbins48

burr740 said:


> Hygrophila araguaia 'chai' two months growth.
> 
> Jan 30, just arrived and planted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's a little diatom algae or maybe just soil dust you can see on the leaves. Didnt even notice it until seeing the pic. It wiped off easily so whatever
> 
> Dutch recovery update coming...


Wow- this one likes to take it's time! Is that typical of most hygro araguaia? Coloration is beautiful though!


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## burr740

gjcarew said:


> I do love the buce wall. I'm working on a mini Christmas moss wall right now, which is why I asked! It seems like using something bright green like Anubias nana "petite" on the back wall could "flatten" the perspective of the tank, no?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk


Here's a nana petite wall, last year's 3rd place tank. One reason I may not try it this year because it was just done












Link to the entry - https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2019/show537.html


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## Blue Ridge Reef

Photos saying 1000 words, Joe! Just this past weekend I set up a new tank. Ran a poll here on whether to use EC or ADA, but not much response. For simplicity I set it up with EC and it has been running with a few plants for a few days now. Those photos alone have me questioning my choice! I've mixed it in a couple of shrimp tanks in the past, do you think that has much value? Or would I be better off tearing it down and using only aquasoil? I could cap it with soil, but the only way I could make soil the base layer would be a complete tear down.


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## burr740

Grobbins48 said:


> Wow- this one likes to take it's time! Is that typical of most hygro araguaia? Coloration is beautiful though!


Missed this. Regular araguaia is much faster, not a weed but there's nothing slow about it. I had heard this one was really slow and it definitely is



Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Photos saying 1000 words, Joe! Just this past weekend I set up a new tank. Ran a poll here on whether to use EC or ADA, but not much response. For simplicity I set it up with EC and it has been running with a few plants for a few days now. Those photos alone have me questioning my choice! I've mixed it in a couple of shrimp tanks in the past, do you think that has much value? Or would I be better off tearing it down and using only aquasoil? I could cap it with soil, but the only way I could make soil the base layer would be a complete tear down.


Hmm, aquasoils are almost certainly better than eco, but whether its worth a redo? Idk honestly


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## Blue Ridge Reef

Would you mix them? On one hand, I badly do not want to tear this tank down I just finished planting but on the other... I'm going to be home for a loooong time the next many days.


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## monkeyruler90

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Would you mix them? On one hand, I badly do not want to tear this tank down I just finished planting but on the other... I'm going to be home for a loooong time the next many days.


I definitely would not mix them. I did that once and it ended up looking awful with the different size grains and different colors 

the EC was pretty good but the AD breaks down and it's hard to separate. 


I would stick with the EC for now and wait until you're doing a rescape


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## burr740

Yeah dont mix them, it will break the soil pebbles down fast. On one hand if you're gonna change it out now is a good time. On the other hand, you've come this far might as well ride the eco for a while and see how it goes. 

Option 3: Slide all the eco to one side, slap a little divider in the middle and do the other half with aquasoil. Then we can all watch and see if one side does better! lol


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## nntnam

Hi burr

I've been stalking your thread for over a year now. IMO one of the best journals in TPT. I've learned a lot from this thread.

I have some questions about the moss wall. A while ago you said moss walls may consume/hold a lot of CO2. Do you still find this is true? How about the buce wall?


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## burr740

nntnam said:


> Hi burr
> 
> I've been stalking your thread for over a year now. IMO one of the best journals in TPT. I've learned a lot from this thread.
> 
> I have some questions about the moss wall. A while ago you said moss walls may consume/hold a lot of CO2. Do you still find this is true? How about the buce wall?


Haha, thanks! About that, all I know is what happened when I took the moss walls out. Had the back and sides covered, it'd been in there probably a year and co2 was dialed in to hit a specific PH drop every day just like any other tank. The next day after taking the walls out I noticed all the fish were gasping at the surface. Checked the PH and it was down something like .2 more than usual.

That's huge on the bottom end, it was already dropping like 1.2 or 1.3 and now it was down 1.5. Those are rough examples I dont remember the exact numbers. So for whatever reason, without the moss walls in there CO2 concentration shot way up. I dont know why. 

The only two possibilities I can imagine is either the moss was consuming a lot of CO2 and without that consumption more built up in the water column. Or, going from moss on three sides of the tank back to glass changed the flow and that made the co2 go up. Water slides easily over glass, not the same with moss. I lean towards the former but cant be sure.

It never happened with Buces, but Ive never had as much wall space covered with them. Only the top 8" or so going across the back. And the moss grows a whole lot faster that Buces under this much light and co2.


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## burr740

Dutch update: Looks like things are finally back to normal. At last weeks WC there was no new algae on the glass. I didnt even wipe it. Trimmed a couple things and that was that. This week same thing, no algae on the glass or anywhere else really. Plants growing well. Now its just up to me to keep it that was and not get lax on maintenance again.

Finally decided to trim the Hygro 53B. Im sticking with these same plants in the spirit of finishing what I started. Like say if this was my only tank and these were the only ones I had, could they pull through.

Couple days ago before trimming










They werent looking too bad, still some poor growth and damaged leaves but promising new growth compared to what it was










Most didnt have stems going all the way down, only held in place by the roots. Its been that way about this whole time.










So I yanked it all up and replanted the best tops. No Osmocote for now, never seen it help big stems much in the first place

You can see that the snails know where the damaged leaves are, do work guys!










^Also the Purple Stauro looks to be rebounding well, might be the recent O+, hard to say 









@Greggz here's Rotala mexicana goias. Never got algae or missed a beat this whole time


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> @Greggz here's Rotala mexicana goias. Never got algae or missed a beat this whole time


That looks nice! Hope mine fills in and becomes a nice bush like that.

And good to see things back under control. Other than maintenance, any other changes? Or was that pretty much it?

Is the Erio in the first pic Erio Aquatica??


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> That looks nice! Hope mine fills in and becomes a nice bush like that.
> 
> And good to see things back under control. Other than maintenance, any other changes? Or was that pretty much it?
> 
> Is the Erio in the first pic Erio Aquatica??


Ive never even tried goias in soil it does so well in sand. Should be no problem at all.

Yeah thats Erio aquatica, you can notice its very similar to lineare but the leaves do a little different, and seems to be a little smaller overall.

Havent changed dosing or co2 or light or anything else. There was only one deficiency that caused all this - lack of proper attention.


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## nntnam

burr740 said:


> Haha, thanks! About that, all I know is what happened when I took the moss walls out. Had the back and sides covered, it'd been in there probably a year and co2 was dialed in to hit a specific PH drop every day just like any other tank. The next day after taking the walls out I noticed all the fish were gasping at the surface. Checked the PH and it was down something like .2 more than usual.
> 
> That's huge on the bottom end, it was already dropping like 1.2 or 1.3 and now it was down 1.5. Those are rough examples I dont remember the exact numbers. So for whatever reason, without the moss walls in there CO2 concentration shot way up. I dont know why.
> 
> The only two possibilities I can imagine is either the moss was consuming a lot of CO2 and without that consumption more built up in the water column. Or, going from moss on three sides of the tank back to glass changed the flow and that made the co2 go up. Water slides easily over glass, not the same with moss. I lean towards the former but cant be sure.
> 
> It never happened with Buces, but Ive never had as much wall space covered with them. Only the top 8" or so going across the back. And the moss grows a whole lot faster that Buces under this much light and co2.


Thanks! That's really helpful! I think it could be both reasons.
I asked because I also have a tank with moss walls on 3 sides. I always have trouble with demanding plants such as Rotala Macrandra variegated or Lud. Sp. 'Pantanal' in that tank. 
Moss walls are beautiful but I think I will go with a Buce wall for my next tank.
BTW, I rarely see Macrandra or Pantanal in the AGA competition. Do you know why?


----------



## burr740

nntnam said:


> BTW, I rarely see Macrandra or Pantanal in the AGA competition. Do you know why?


Not sure but if I had to guess its because both can be hard to grow. A lot of competitive scapers arent the best plant growers. Also when they do grow nice they are too fast to deal with, especially in a Dutch where you need a lot of it. 

Thats why I haven't used Pantanal yet, its just too damn fast to keep up with that many. But its such a stunner I'd like to use it. I keep telling myself Im going to...


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Not sure but if I had to guess its because both can be hard to grow. A lot of competitive scapers arent the best plant growers. Also when they do grow nice they are too fast to deal with, especially in a Dutch where you need a lot of it.
> 
> Thats why I haven't used Pantanal yet, its just too damn fast to keep up with that many. But its such a stunner I'd like to use it. I keep telling myself Im going to...


Yeah that is something I think most don't understand. For most scapers it's more about the artistic presentation than the plant growing. And temperamental fast growing weeds like Pantanal don't fit that model very well.

I have had the same group of Pantanal I got from you about three years ago. And yes it is a pain, grows way too fast, and needs to be trimmed every week. But try as I might I just can't quit it! Like you said, it's a stunner and nothing else is really like it.


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## Quagulator

Also worth noting the scaped tanks have the rear sub banked up so much there isn't room to let the big stems shine before they are poking through the surface / need a trim and replant.


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## burr740

Quagulator said:


> Also worth noting the scaped tanks have the rear sub banked up so much there isn't room to let the big stems shine before they are poking through the surface / need a trim and replant.


There's a lot of that in Dennis Wong style tanks but Dutch subs are flat. Just so nobody misunderstands and thinks Dutch tanks have built up subs.


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## Quagulator

burr740 said:


> There's a lot of that in Dennis Wong style tanks but Dutch subs are flat. Just so nobody misunderstands and thinks Dutch tanks have built up subs.



Yea yea yea, those are the ones I was referring too, not the Dutch ones :wink2: Good catch. 

If only you could spread the word on what is a dutch vs not a dutch


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## Greggz

Quagulator said:


> If only you could spread the word on what is a dutch vs not a dutch


The term "Dutch" is thrown around pretty loosley.

I consider my tank to be maybe "Dutch Inspired" but in reality it's not even remotely close.


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## Immortal1

"Dutch Inspired", I like that  Kinda like Dutch w/o rules


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## zivvel

I like burr's "Dutchy Freestyle." That term is what first brought me to this journal. But he's a lot closer to Dutch than most who claim it.


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## EdWiser

Amano started in the dutch style then evolved his style to the nature aquarium style. Which is more in the Japanese way of creating a bit of nature for the home. Just like bonsai.


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## jcbradt

im only on page 7 but this is an amazing read, ty


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## burr740

Re-installed the back panels and divided up the Buces. Hard to believe all these came from that one clump. The same clump on the wall in the last round of pics.










I would've made more using smaller pieces but I was low on zip ties. As these grow out I'll pinch the new stuff off and use it to fill in. Probably take 2-3 months to have the whole thing covered. It'll just be the top 8" or so 

Livestock was getting low so I bought some new stuff from Pet Zone Tropical. 15 more rasboras, 20 cardinals and 3 cherry barbs to go with the 3 already in here. Probably will wind up getting 10 or 20 more cardinals. 

Channeling my inner Greggz here's some random fish pics...such as they are


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## Immortal1

:surprise: You have fish?

Just kidding - I'm still amazed you can grow Buce that fast


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## Grobbins48

Ever have issues with the cherry barbs snacking on the limnophila plants in your tanks? Mine seem to really enjoy them!


----------



## Squids

What do you use to raise your gh and kh? I'm assuming you use rodi water?

I use rodi and I am trying to find the. Best ways to raise my gh to 4-6 and kh to 1.


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## burr740

Immortal1 said:


> :surprise: You have fish?
> 
> Just kidding - I'm still amazed you can grow Buce that fast


Maybe its the light but they really arent slow at all, kinda fast actually. When the wall was full of those other ones I'd have to trim it back once a month at least. Those big piles I auctioned on FB last year were the trimmings



Squids said:


> What do you use to raise your gh and kh? I'm assuming you use rodi water?
> 
> I use rodi and I am trying to find the. Best ways to raise my gh to 4-6 and kh to 1.


My tap is pretty good and thats all I've ever used. Never messed with RO but @Greggz or @Ken Keating1 can tell you the best way to do it.



Grobbins48 said:


> Ever have issues with the cherry barbs snacking on the limnophila plants in your tanks? Mine seem to really enjoy them!


Ive heard other people say that too. Ive had a few in one tank or another pretty much ever since Ive been in the hobby. Ive never noticed them bothering plants....knock on wood

Back in the day I had a big school of Tiger barbs that were fine for six months. Then all of a sudden, practically overnight, they proceeded to strip a dozen Bacopa caroliniana down to the bare stems. I was like WTF?! If that ever happens with these it'll be goodnight sweet cherry barbs.

Been trying to get a good pic for two days now. This is the best four out of at least three hundred. The rasboras capture pretty good, too bad I wanst trying to get them. As soon as I walk near the tank the barbs go crazy thinking its food time. Im gonna have to go full covert ops one day and sneak up on 'em


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## nntnam

Burr,
Speaking of fish, what do you think about using a lot of fish as a constant source of ammonia?


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> My tap is pretty good and thats all I've ever used. Never messed with RO but @Greggz or @Ken Keating1 can tell you the best way to do it.


 @Squids it's really quite simple.

K2CO3 or KHCO3 for dKH. Keep in mind it will add some K, so factor that in with the rest of your dosing. I use MgNO3 instead of KNO3 to keep K levels where I want them.

For dGH, you just need MgSO4 and CaSO4. You can purchase GH boosters, but they add a load of K in addition to the Ca/Mg. Plus they are mixed to a ratio, and you are better off controlling your ratios with the individual salts.

Best to mix in a holding tank, as it gives the salts time to dissolve and come into equilibrium. Adding circulation and bubbles is a good idea to bring up the oxygen levels in the RO water.

Learn either the Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox calculator to calculate the amounts required to hit your ppm goals. And feel free to PM me if you need more help.



burr740 said:


> Been trying to get a good pic for two days now. This is the best four out of at least three hundred.


You found the secret!!:grin2:

Take loads of pics and hope for the best!

And good to see pics of the fish. Those little red ones are very nice an vibrant.


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## burr740

nntnam said:


> Burr,
> Speaking of fish, what do you think about using a lot of fish as a constant source of ammonia?


Ive never relied heavily on that so not sure where the line is between needing less ferts. It will definitely add some though. The downside would be adding lot of other waste products to the system in the process. With a heavy fish load you really have to stay on top of keeping everything clean.

I believe @Greggz has tried lower NO3 with all his Rainbows a time or two in the past. It didnt seem to make up for a lot if I remember correctly.

Really depends on what kind of tank you have. In a fast moving stem tank with big light and CO2, you could probably look at it as an extra bonus but it wouldnt really take the place of much else. That is just my thinking, you'd really just have to try it and see.

Anyone down to play a drinking game? Take a shot every time I tag @Greggz in a post :red_mouth


----------



## Immortal1

Crap, thats 2 already. And I only just finished dinner...


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> Ive never relied heavily on that so not sure where the line is between needing less ferts. It will definitely add some though. The downside would be adding lot of other waste products to the system in the process. With a heavy fish load you really have to stay on top of keeping everything clean.
> 
> I believe @Greggz has tried lower NO3 with all his Rainbows a time or two in the past. It didnt seem to make up for a lot if I remember correctly.
> 
> Really depends on what kind of tank you have. In a fast moving stem tank with big light and CO2, you could probably look at it as an extra bonus but it wouldnt really take the place of much else. That is just my thinking, you'd really just have to try it and see.


Agree with everything you said. Especially the part about staying on top of maintenance. Very large water changes, gravel vacs, filter cleanings, etc. I have no doubt my planted tank life would be somewhat easier with a lower fish load....but it is what it is.

As to adjusting ferts based on fish load, here are my thoughts. Base your dosing on what the tank tells you, not what you think should happen. Every time I lowered NO3 thinking the fish load would take care of it, some plants rebelled and I ended up going back up. I don't factor in a thing for fish load, and just dose based on what the plants are telling me.



burr740 said:


> Anyone down to play a drinking game? Take a shot every time I tag @Greggz in a post :red_mouth


Great idea!!!

I just started playing.......having a nice glass of Scotch right now!!:grin2:


----------



## Grobbins48

Greggz said:


> I have no doubt my planted tank life would be somewhat easier with a lower fish load....but it is what it is.


Been thinking a out this quite a bit (no, not going to lower my fish load!). I agree that a heavy rainbow load changes the game a bit. I need to vacuum the surface of my sand each week to keep things happy in my tank.


----------



## Immortal1

Greggz said:


> As to adjusting ferts based on fish load, here are my thoughts. Base your dosing on what the tank tells you, not what you think should happen. Every time I lowered NO3 thinking the fish load would take care of it, some plants rebelled and I ended up going back up. *I don't factor in a thing for fish load, and just dose based on what the plants are telling me*.
> 
> Great idea!!!
> 
> I just started playing.......having a nice glass of Scotch right now!!:grin2:



Beginning to better understand this.
Not sure how long I can play the game - already got stuck with 2 rum & cokes :grin2:


----------



## ProndFarms

Grobbins48 said:


> Been thinking a out this quite a bit (no, not going to lower my fish load!). I agree that a heavy rainbow load changes the game a bit. I need to vacuum the surface of my sand each week to keep things happy in my tank.


Curious - what do you (or anyone else, for that matter) use to vacuum your gravel? Just a simple tube with a siphon hose - like a Python?

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


----------



## Grobbins48

ProndFarms said:


> Curious - what do you (or anyone else, for that matter) use to vacuum your gravel? Just a simple tube with a siphon hose - like a Python?
> 
> Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


Yes, exactly that. I have one with about a 2 inch opening, and one that is just the 1/2" or whatever size tubing. As @burr740 warned a few pages back, be careful with using just the tubing. The suction is incredibly strong. It will rip both plants and fish to shreds if you do not take care!

But as @Greggz (do we all drink now???) learned in his journal, the syphon is also great for removing all your sand substrate during a swap!


----------



## Immortal1

Grobbins48 said:


> Yes, exactly that. I have one with about a 2 inch opening, and one that is just the 1/2" or whatever size tubing. As @*burr740* warned a few pages back, be careful with using just the tubing. The suction is incredibly strong. It will rip both plants and fish to shreds if you do not take care!
> 
> But as @*Greggz* (do we all drink now???) learned in his journal, the syphon is also great for removing all your sand substrate during a swap!


3/8" id tubing (usually found on medium gravel vac) works very nicely at getting into tight spots or getting a piece of substrate with BBA on it. Yes, it will tear plant leaves if you are not careful. 

As for @Greggz - too early for a drink ;-)


----------



## ProndFarms

Immortal1 said:


> 3/8" id tubing (usually found on medium gravel vac) works very nicely at getting into tight spots or getting a piece of substrate with BBA on it. Yes, it will tear plant leaves if you are not careful.
> 
> As for @Greggz - too early for a drink ;-)


Great bits of info there, thanks to the both of you.

And as @Greggz once told me, you can't drink all day if you don't start early!

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk


----------



## Greggz

ProndFarms said:


> Great bits of info there, thanks to the both of you.
> 
> And as @Greggz once told me, you can't drink all day if you don't start early!


LOL......I've said a lot of things.....but I don't remember that one!

I'm guessing cocktail hour will start around 8:30 pm tonight (New COVID schedule!).............so maybe I'll drop in here and mention myself then so others can join me!!:grin2:


----------



## Quagulator

Greggz said:


> LOL......I've said a lot of things.....but I don't remember that one!
> 
> I'm guessing cocktail hour will start around 8:30 pm tonight (New COVID schedule!).............so maybe I'll drop in here and mention myself then so others can join me!!:grin2:


Waiting.....


----------



## Greggz

So like promised, @Greggz here saying here's to you Joe for all the inspiration and support over the years. 










OK, now I'll quit muddying up your thread.....but remember.....you started this!!:grin2:


----------



## burr740

Bunch of degenerates around here...

Spent the last hour and a half down a Youtube rabbit hole looking for a good drinking song to post. Finally settled on this one. Not exactly what I had in mind to begin with but I find it.....pleasing  

Cheers Homies


----------



## Immortal1

Cheers


----------



## DennisSingh

Joe, you should definitely try uaupes in your bdbs tank/s. I have some articles on syn and on a micro propagation article it stated higher survival rates in a certain species in sand over vs some nutrient mediums and soils. This was a tc article. But heck they come from sand in the wild and uve already grown belem, giants, and so on right? I dont see how uaupes is different as long water kept soft and acidic.


----------



## burr740

Two interesting new species not yet in the hobby. A mini Mayaca variety that stays small, not officially ID'd yet. And Physostegia purpurea, dark green leafy plant that gets about softball size. 












StrungOut said:


> Joe, you should definitely try uaupes in your bdbs tank/s. I have some articles on syn and on a micro propagation article it stated higher survival rates in a certain species in sand over vs some nutrient mediums and soils. This was a tc article. But heck they come from sand in the wild and uve already grown belem, giants, and so on right? I dont see how uaupes is different as long water kept soft and acidic.


Hey Dennis. I think you'd probably be right. Most Syn and Tonina Ive tried in sand grew fine as long as the KH was low. When Ive tried them in my regular tap with 5-6 dKH they couldnt really deal with it, sand or soil. Some of the same species would do alright but about half would not. I got tired of wasting them. 

To get the low KH I have to use HCL, which is kind of a pita and also risky if not done just right. These days Im not doing any of the sand tanks, only two 75gal soil tanks where I keep all the soft water stuff.

It's interesting you have a study that some plants might actually prefer sand. I think Downoi varieties might too just from personal exp, and Rotala wallichii for some strange reason always does better in sand. Both could be KH related though and Im sure others have different experiences.


----------



## KayakJimW

burr740 said:


> ...interesting new species not yet in the hobby. ...Physostegia purpurea, dark green leafy plant that gets about softball size.


Intriguing! I like hearing about new non-stem plants so I had to look into this more. It's a very pretty wildflower when not submerged. Under water it looks very crypt-like. Almost like a missing link between crypt and sword from the more mature plant I googled up... Staying softball size sounds great too. Hope it does well for you!
http://aquaria.palo-alto.ca.us/plants/p/Physostegia/purpurea/.00-0-Copr_2018-Unknownx.jpg.meta/


----------



## Matt69

burr740 said:


> Bunch of degenerates around here...
> 
> Spent the last hour and a half down a Youtube rabbit hole looking for a good drinking song to post. Finally settled on this one. Not exactly what I had in mind to begin with but I find it.....pleasing
> 
> Cheers Homies
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfkq-Ov7WSw



I didn’t know we were listening to drinking music and drinking sorry I missed well have to do it again sometime. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## rzn7z7

Hi @*burr740*, it's time for me to prepare another batch of micros and was wondering what your latest recipe is?


Thanks


----------



## burr740

rzn7z7 said:


> Hi @*burr740*, it's time for me to prepare another batch of micros and was wondering what your latest recipe is?
> 
> 
> Thanks


Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1

Fe DTPA - .1
Fe Gluc- .05 
Mn - .045
B - .037
Zn - .035
Cu - .0025
Mo - .0013
Ni - .0003

Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.

I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now

Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1
> 
> Fe DTPA - .1
> Fe Gluc- .05
> Mn - .045
> B - .037
> Zn - .035
> Cu - .0025
> Mo - .0013
> Ni - .0003
> 
> Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.
> 
> I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now
> 
> Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon



Interesting most of your micro numbers are a little lower than what we discussed 2-3 years ago  At least I am close. Still zeroing in on what macro levels work in my tank.


----------



## rzn7z7

burr740 said:


> Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1
> 
> Fe DTPA - .1
> Fe Gluc- .05
> Mn - .045
> B - .037
> Zn - .035
> Cu - .0025
> Mo - .0013
> Ni - .0003
> 
> Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.
> 
> I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now
> 
> Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon



Thanks, very similar to your old 13.15 recipe I've been using for the last year


I see you're adding Fe Gluc in your micros recipe - what is your experience with it and what are the benefits?


----------



## burr740

rzn7z7 said:


> Thanks, very similar to your old 13.15 recipe I've been using for the last year
> 
> 
> I see you're adding Fe Gluc in your micros recipe - what is your experience with it and what are the benefits?



It seems like with gluc in the mix it doesnt take as much Fe overall to keep things happy. But I havent tested it closely enough to say for sure that its more efficient. It just...seems to work a little better


----------



## n70me

Hi Burr,

Do you mind sharing your latest micro recipe and macro dosing numbers, iam thinking to do a new micro mix.

Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.

Thanks,


----------



## Greggz

n70me said:


> Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.


Me too!:grin2:


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> Hi Burr,
> 
> Do you mind sharing your latest micro recipe and macro dosing numbers, iam thinking to do a new micro mix.
> 
> Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.
> 
> Thanks,


Hi Kishore! I dose all tanks roughly the same regardless of soil or sand. I may go up or down with everything based on plant mass but I dont make any adjustments between them

Current macros, weekly total 21/6/25 divided in 3 equal doses through the week. No urea or NH4, all NO3

Micros I dose this 3x per week

Fe - .12 (.08 dtpa and .04 gluconate)
Mn - .025
B -.027
Zn - .021
Cu - .0019
Mo - .001
Ni - .00025

I add 10 ppm Mg with water changes. Water column Ca and Mg stays around 40 and 20

~75% weekly water change volume

I use straight tap water with KH 5-6. In 2 soil tanks I drop the KH to 0-1 using HCL for soft water species and really delicate stuff


----------



## n70me

burr740 said:


> Hi Kishore! I dose all tanks roughly the same regardless of soil or sand. I may go up or down with everything based on plant mass but I dont make any adjustments between them
> 
> Current macros, weekly total 21/6/25 divided in 3 equal doses through the week. No urea or NH4, all NO3
> 
> Micros I dose this 3x per week
> 
> Fe - .12 (.08 dtpa and .04 gluconate)
> Mn - .025
> B -.027
> Zn - .021
> Cu - .0019
> Mo - .001
> Ni - .00025
> 
> I add 10 ppm Mg with water changes. Water column Ca and Mg stays around 40 and 20
> 
> ~75% weekly water change volume
> 
> I use straight tap water with KH 5-6. In 2 soil tanks I drop the KH to 0-1 using HCL for soft water species and really delicate stuff


Thanks joe for sharing,

B,Zn,Mn looks almost half of some of your older versions
Mo, Ni,Cu have gone down a little bit. 

Looks like overall a little lean on micro's. Any reason you would like to share, just want to see if its applicable for our tanks as well.

Also, any reason you are back to gluconate , i guess previously you had assumed it to be bad with your tap PH.


----------



## Deanna

If you have time for your long story on discontinuing urea, I'd be interested. I dose only urea and fish food. Also, without urea, is the Ni still included because you have a batch previously made with it, or do you see value to it even without the urea?

I dose about 4x the iron you do, but it's all gluc and is gone within a half-hour (can't do DTPA due to UVS). However, I'm about 25% the level of all your other metals, except Zn, which is a little higher.

Amazing how much room there is for formula variations!


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> ~75% weekly water change volume


This is key.

Your macros numbers would be stated as less for those used to quoting 50% water change. Just saying it is not as rich as it seems. 

And good to see the latest micro dosing. 

How about some farm tanks shots sometime? Need more plant eye candy around here!:wink2:

FWIW, here is the 50% EI equivalent.....14-4-17


----------



## Deanna

Greggz said:


> This is key.


You're right, but the dosing frequency is also quite important. There is a large accumulation variability difference between daily and weekly dosing (my traces are daily) and I've often wondered if dosing would be better if all nutrients were done after the water change, no matter when the water change takes place. For example; @burr740's dosing of .025ppm Mn every-other-day results in swings of ~.03ppm after the w/c up to ~.13ppm before the w/c. Could this variabilty cause under-performance at one end or the other - or both, e.g.; is .03 too little and is .13 too much? Of course, this may bring up the spectre of the Toxicity Wars.

If he (and I, at my respective levels) were to dose .05ppm only after each w/c, the levels would hold consistently at about .07ppm, ignoring uptake. I think it all comes down to finding the sweet spot. Is that an average of his .03-.13 spread, i.e.; his plants may only benefit at some point along the curve for a day or two or does uptake level it out? All rhetorical questions at this point.


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> Thanks joe for sharing,
> 
> B,Zn,Mn looks almost half of some of your older versions
> Mo, Ni,Cu have gone down a little bit.
> 
> Looks like overall a little lean on micro's. Any reason you would like to share, just want to see if its applicable for our tanks as well.
> 
> Also, any reason you are back to gluconate , i guess previously you had assumed it to be bad with your tap PH.


Ive gone down with some of the non-Fe stuff. There's a few species that just do better with less. Not necessarily "sensitive" species, stuff like Mini Myrio, Penthorum (of all plants) Rotala indica, Didiplis, half a dozen others. 

Gluconate, as mentioned above things just seem better with a little of that in the mix. 



Deanna said:


> If you have time for your long story on discontinuing urea, I'd be interested. I dose only urea and fish food. Also, without urea, is the Ni still included because you have a batch previously made with it, or do you see value to it even without the urea?
> 
> I dose about 4x the iron you do, but it's all gluc and is gone within a half-hour (can't do DTPA due to UVS). However, I'm about 25% the level of all your other metals, except Zn, which is a little higher.
> 
> Amazing how much room there is for formula variations!


Ive kept the Ni because the retail version will have it so I wanna continue using it to make sure the recipe as a whole works good. Another reason, based on very limited research I found, apparently it assists in the utilization of Fe. Although there's not much info out there about that.


The deal with urea and NH4 spans 3-4 years of using it for periods of time and then not. Ive never seen dramatic positive results from it like you'd expect, thats in sand, soil, various KH. And every single time I stop it, immediately its like a light comes on and several things perk up, water turns crystal clear, global pearling increases. 

And in spite of seeing this happen repeatedly over time, I always decide to go back to one or the other because, well, on paper its supposed to be really good. But for me it never is and Im done with trying it.

I ran really high Zn levels for a while just testing it out. Guys from the custom micro thread may remember. It never seemed to hurt anything, but its a compound that according to Mueller can inhibit Fe (might be why you need so much) so I took it back down, eventually to around where it is now. You can definitely run too low however. One of the first signs is abnormally short internodes, specifically in Rotala Mac varieties. Leaves growing right on top of one another, otherwise healthy perfectly formed leaves. 



Greggz said:


> This is key.
> 
> Your macros numbers would be stated as less for those used to quoting 50% water change. Just saying it is not as rich as it seems.
> 
> And good to see the latest micro dosing.
> 
> How about some farm tanks shots sometime? Need more plant eye candy around here!:wink2:


Yeah thats why I started always listing my WC volumes because it does makes a big difference. Those number look like EI but its a lot less with bigger water changes

Pics you say? 

Buce wall in the Dutch is coming along nice. Gonna split them one more time about a month out (deadline is late OCT) Hard to tell in the pic but there's plenty right now to fill in the gaps











Somebody come trim this 50 for me. I'll supply a face mask and the scissors











Here's the latest 75 gal with Landen I set up around the first of the year. Still blasting CO2 straight into a powerhead. Best growing tank I have. 











New Syngonanthus sp Meta, discovered last year in Colombia. Rotala ramosior cramer to the right. The red stem behind is Ludwigia glandulosa










Sunsets doing great. They grow almost as well in sand with a higher KH. 












In front are a couple new species also from Colombia last year. Hyptis laciniata, low growing flowery stem plant that creeps along the sub. On the right is Bacopa sp CSP. I like this plant, it stays short and branches a lot. The tops get various shades of yellow-orange-pink. Makes a great midground bush. I may use it in the Dutch, still deciding on what species to use in a couple of spots.


----------



## burr740

Deanna said:


> You're right, but the dosing frequency is also quite important. There is a large accumulation variability difference between daily and weekly dosing (my traces are daily) and I've often wondered if dosing would be better if all nutrients were done after the water change, no matter when the water change takes place. For example; @*burr740*'s dosing of .025ppm Mn every-other-day results in swings of ~.03ppm after the w/c up to ~.13ppm before the w/c. Could this variabilty cause under-performance at one end or the other - or both, e.g.; is .03 too little and is .13 too much? Of course, this may bring up the spectre of the Toxicity Wars.
> 
> If he (and I, at my respective levels) were to dose .05ppm only after each w/c, the levels would hold consistently at about .07ppm, ignoring uptake. I think it all comes down to finding the sweet spot. Is that an average of his .03-.13 spread, i.e.; his plants may only benefit at some point along the curve for a day or two or does uptake level it out? All rhetorical questions at this point.


Yeah you cant ignore uptake and that makes those swing numbers purely speculative. One day soon Im going to start daily micros at the same weekly total and see if I can tell any difference. Some of the best plant growers I know dose micros daily. 

If one was really curious about the levels through the week, the thing to do is order 3 ICP tests from amazon and test the water on days 1, 3 and 6 to get an accurate view of whats happening.

Another question is, does the hypothetical swing even matter? As long as the ratios are such that nothing is interfering with something else, and the plants always have enough.. but not too much, a sweet spot if you will. Does a ppm fluctuation within that range cause any issues? Im thinking no but that is also speculation. Its an interesting discussion nonetheless


----------



## Deanna

I've been on urea for a long time. Maybe I'll try a switch to NO3 and see if I can truly distinguish a difference - confirmation bias is hard to overcome. I do have ~10ppm NO3 always present, though, from in-tank BB conversion. Still, I think I can comfortably add up to K levels the NO3 for the test.

Regarding micro testing, I was thinking that all that would be needed would be to test just before and after a w/c to bracket the end points. Then, since we know what we're adding, uptake should be obvious, assuming no oxidation. Unfortunately, the one ICP company is not yet able to test these levels. I don't know about the German company's capabilities. I'm hoping that ICP-Analysis will soon install that expected capability.


----------



## n70me

*Gh*



burr740 said:


> Hi Kishore! I dose all tanks roughly the same regardless of soil or sand. I may go up or down with everything based on plant mass but I dont make any adjustments between them
> 
> Current macros, weekly total 21/6/25 divided in 3 equal doses through the week. No urea or NH4, all NO3
> 
> Micros I dose this 3x per week
> 
> Fe - .12 (.08 dtpa and .04 gluconate)
> Mn - .025
> B -.027
> Zn - .021
> Cu - .0019
> Mo - .001
> Ni - .00025
> 
> I add 10 ppm Mg with water changes. Water column Ca and Mg stays around 40 and 20
> 
> 
> 
> ~75% weekly water change volume
> 
> I use straight tap water with KH 5-6. In 2 soil tanks I drop the KH to 0-1 using HCL for soft water species and really delicate stuff



@burr740 , I am confused when it comes to GH numbers. Currently iam on 20Ca and 5PPM Mg using 100% RO . What factors (high micros, high macro, light ,co2 ?)decides if i need to 40:20, 20:10 or 20:5 (Ca:Mg) . Any pointers on this please? Your numbers looks close to EI i guess.


----------



## burr740

n70me said:


> @*burr740* , I am confused when it comes to GH numbers. Currently iam on 20Ca and 5PPM Mg using 100% RO . What factors (high micros, high macro, light ,co2 ?)decides if i need to 40:20, 20:10 or 20:5 (Ca:Mg) . Any pointers on this please? Your numbers looks close to EI i guess.


Macros are roughly EI but like Greggz said, with 75% water changes instead of 50 the levels in the water column arent as high as they would be doing only 50%

You can play with the nutrient accumulation calculator here to see the difference. https://rotalabutterfly.com/accumulation-calculator.php

Assuming zero plant uptake, which you have to do with this, the difference in NO3 levels dosing my 7 ppm 3x

Doing 50% weekly water changes the total NO3 in the water column eventually levels out around 42 ppm. 

Doing 75% the maximum level becomes around 27 ppm. Again this assumes zero plant uptake just for the sake of comparison

So...water change volume plays a big role in how much nutrients are actually in the water relative to the dosing amount

I do bigger water changes for dissolved organics, for cleanliness, not to reset nutrients.

My tap has around 40 ppm Ca so Im locked into dosing Mg/K around that. Personally I think the hobby in general under doses Mg. My tanks have always done better with higher Mg levels, a 2:1 Ca:Mg ratio works best in my set ups. 

20 Ca should be fine, Id run 10 Mg a long with that but its something you'll just have to try and see if it works better


----------



## nntnam

Nice update Burr!
Love that new Syngonanthus. Looks like a long leaves tonina. 

If I recall correctly, in one of Tom's speech at AGA, he mentioned that, like CO2, plants adapt to certain concentration of fertilization. 
High or low is not important. They can grow well in both cases. Stability is the key. 
I've been copying Tom's fertilization/waterchange routine. 
(High percentage waterchange, twice a week, and dose macro right after the waterchange)
With this routine, both the daily and weekly fluctuations are minimal. 
Previously, I do daily macro dosing. While it provides minimal daily fluctuation, the weekly one is really bad. 
I found Tom's method works well for the fast-growing Ludwigia species. 
My Pantanal has stopped dropping lower leaves. 
Other plants seem to do not care much.


----------



## burr740

nntnam said:


> Nice update Burr!
> Love that new Syngonanthus. Looks like a long leaves tonina.
> 
> If I recall correctly, in one of Tom's speech at AGA, he mentioned that, like CO2, plants adapt to certain concentration of fertilization.
> High or low is not important. They can grow well in both cases. Stability is the key.
> I've been copying Tom's fertilization/waterchange routine.
> (High percentage waterchange, twice a week, and dose macro right after the waterchange)
> With this routine, both the daily and weekly fluctuations are minimal.
> Previously, I do daily macro dosing. While it provides minimal daily fluctuation, the weekly one is really bad.
> I found Tom's method works well for the fast-growing Ludwigia species.
> My Pantanal has stopped dropping lower leaves.
> Other plants seem to do not care much.


If I didnt have so many tanks I would do that, 2x per week or maybe every 4 days. 

75%-80% WC with macros all at once right after. Then micros daily for 2-3 days. Repeat...


----------



## n70me

nntnam said:


> Nice update Burr!
> Love that new Syngonanthus. Looks like a long leaves tonina.
> 
> If I recall correctly, in one of Tom's speech at AGA, he mentioned that, like CO2, plants adapt to certain concentration of fertilization.
> High or low is not important. They can grow well in both cases. Stability is the key.
> I've been copying Tom's fertilization/waterchange routine.
> (High percentage waterchange, twice a week, and dose macro right after the waterchange)
> With this routine, both the daily and weekly fluctuations are minimal.
> Previously, I do daily macro dosing. While it provides minimal daily fluctuation, the weekly one is really bad.
> I found Tom's method works well for the fast-growing Ludwigia species.
> My Pantanal has stopped dropping lower leaves.
> Other plants seem to do not care much.


 @nntnam, 

So if i understand , daily dosing macro or even micro superior of all methods with 1 weekly water change?


----------



## KrangDog

Burr, did you find much difference between daily micro dosing and 3x per week? I read your post where you wondered if 3x per week may increase concentrations and allow plants to stock up. Looked for an answer, but couldn't find it, sorry if I've missed it.


----------



## nntnam

n70me said:


> @nntnam,
> 
> So if i understand , daily dosing macro or even micro superior of all methods with 1 weekly water change?


Daily micro is the best choice, especially when you're using the chelator type. They're pretty much gone in the next day. Either precipitating or being consumed by plants. They may hang around longer if you're using salt.
Daily macro is good when you dose exactly what your plants consuming or less. This is called PPS-Pro if I remember correctly. 
On the other hand, EI daily seems like a bad idea as the nutrient level will build up over the week and suddenly bottom out when you do the WC. 
This may cause a huge fluctuation at the time of WC. 
One way to work around is front-loading the tank with some certain levels of macro right after the WC, then add small daily dosages during weekdays.


----------



## n70me

nntnam said:


> Daily micro is the best choice, especially when you're using the chelator type.


Do you mean non chelated type? As far as i know non chelated traces needs regular dosing than chelated ones?


----------



## burr740

Here's the OG 75 w/blasting sand. 



















New Persicaria cf glabra. Its smaller than most varieties and a little slower. Pretty cool plant


----------



## Greggz

Great full tank shot and good to see the OG 75.

Interesting to see Mermaid Weed back in the rotation. I was thinking of adding again in my tank.

But I am confused. Does this mean no AGA Dutch this year? Or are you going with a soil tank?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Great full tank shot and good to see the OG 75.
> 
> Interesting to see Mermaid Weed back in the rotation. I was thinking of adding again in my tank.
> 
> But I am confused. Does this mean no AGA Dutch this year? Or are you going with a soil tank?



This isnt the Dutch, its the original 75 that I started with. Then it turned into farm when I got the 120 gal, the one that busted a seam. The Dutch has sand too. Im still planning an AGA entry, deadline in about 5 weeks


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> This isnt the Dutch, its the original 75 that I started with. Then it turned into farm when I got the 120 gal, the one that busted a seam. The Dutch has sand too. Im still planning an AGA entry, deadline in about 5 weeks


Well then the "farm" tank might be about the most nicely scaped "farm" tank in world!:grin2:

Good luck with the AGA. Looking forward to seeing what you come up with this year.


----------



## zivvel

Did you think you could sneak this past us? Tell us a story, @burr740.


----------



## burr740

zivvel said:


> Did you think you could sneak this past us? Tell us a story, @*burr740*.



Hah, busted! Thats a baby Aflame Purple knight. It was struggling in sand and I have no room in a soil tank to grow it out... so its sitting here in a pot of Landen soil. Seems pretty happy now, there's a couple of crappy older leaves that need pinched off


----------



## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Hah, busted! Thats a baby Aflame Purple knight. It was struggling in sand and I have no room in a soil tank to grow it out... so its sitting here in a pot of Landen soil. Seems pretty happy now, there's a couple of crappy older leaves that need pinched off


Really thought you would use some small red Solo cups...
or does @Maryland Guppy have patent on that approach ;-)


----------



## gjcarew

I've come to the king of Dutch for some advice about trimming to make plants look nice.

I noticed in last year's Dutch tank your Myriophyllum "Guyana" was very vertical. When you plant it, are you taking each stem out, cutting it to size, then planting individually? 

All this time I've been planting the "dense" plants in clumps of a few at a time but it just doesn't look that great. Rotalas, for example. I get them trimmed in to a nice shape, then the bare bottoms (they are a background plant so aren't in view) get too tall so I uproot and trim the bottoms, but then when I try to plant them the same way they came out the shape of the group just looks horrible and I have to spend a couple weeks trimming it in to shape, then it looks good for a week, then I start the whole dang cycle again.

Either you have the patience of a saint to keep all your plants so uniformly trimmed or I'm doing something wrong. Do you have any advice?


----------



## burr740

gjcarew said:


> I've come to the king of Dutch for some advice about trimming to make plants look nice.
> 
> I noticed in last year's Dutch tank your Myriophyllum "Guyana" was very vertical. When you plant it, are you taking each stem out, cutting it to size, then planting individually?
> 
> All this time I've been planting the "dense" plants in clumps of a few at a time but it just doesn't look that great. Rotalas, for example. I get them trimmed in to a nice shape, then the bare bottoms (they are a background plant so aren't in view) get too tall so I uproot and trim the bottoms, but then when I try to plant them the same way they came out the shape of the group just looks horrible and I have to spend a couple weeks trimming it in to shape, then it looks good for a week, then I start the whole dang cycle again.
> 
> Either you have the patience of a saint to keep all your plants so uniformly trimmed or I'm doing something wrong. Do you have any advice?


Haha, I feel your pain.. and so does every other hobbyist. The Myrio in the pic was probably for a contest tank, and yes those were all planted individually. Normally I'll do 2-3 at a time. Most fine leaf smaller stuff does fine planting in small bunches. 

With that Rotala you'll just have to try a few different ways and see how it responds. The first round of new growth from rooted stumps is going to make the nicest shape bush. If they're in back you can cut them down to about mid ways of the tank height. Slope the stumps however you want the bush to be sloped. Thats a good way to manage smaller Rotala because it grows so fast. Too much work trying to use tops all the time, and you cant really get the same thick look

Here's Gratiola viscidula I was using for a contest couple years back. This is what I do with painstakingly small stuff that needs planting individually

Before










Cut tops sorted by height










After <much saintly patience>










And....speaking of contest tanks, I finished up the Dutch yesterday, deadline is tomorrow. Results out Jan. It came out OK I think. I may have too many focal points, we'll see what the judges think. Here's a sneaky peeky


----------



## Sepp0207

Hi.
I love this tank. I hope one day i will be able to grow plants like you.
Can you give me an update about your micro dosing?
And do you any advice for bacopa colorata? Mine is very pale.

greeting
Sebastian


----------



## burr740

Happy 2021 Guys! Hope everyone is having a great start to the new year. Time for an update or two, yeah? 

Made a couple small changes to my dosing routine. I started front loading macros again about two months ago, at the same time I started doing solid 80%+ water changes. Ive always done pretty big ones and it seems like from a cleanliness standpoint (read: best plant growth) the bigger the better in my set ups.

I'd been doing about 60-75% for a long time and dosing macros 3x a week. That always worked pretty good but now doing even bigger water changes there'd be too much of a nutrient drop right after. Really if you're gonna dose 3x a week its best to stay around 50-60% water changes. Otherwise nutrients will be too low the first part of the week

So.. the current routine is big water change, 21/4.5/27 NO3/PO4/K, and about 12 ppm Mg. Water column Ca and Mg is about 40/15

Micros are half of this daily

Fe dtpa - .09
Fe gluc - .04
Mn - .025
B - .027
Zn - .023
Cu - .0019
Mo - .001
Ni - .00025

Pics or it didnt happen


----------



## burr740

I ordered a round of new Agrobrite bulbs. HTGSupply has pretty good deals on 4-packs. Got 4 ea 3000K, the red Pure Bloom and the purple-ish Pure Par. For the money at under 10 ea, you really cant beat these, especially if you run as many bulbs as I do over several tanks. Dont worry @Greggz Im still down for the PV. 

Also grabbed two of these led T5. I dont think they've been out long, Ive never seen then before. Has 450 blue, 660 red, and 5500K. Could be a good bulb if the color looks right.










https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agroled-isunlight-led-t5-tube-bloom/

Here's the current 6 bulb on the 75 soil tank










Left, which is the front, to right: Agromax Pure Bloom, ZooMed 420, Powerveg 660, TrueLumen Flora, Wavepoint UG, 6500K. Whats missing is the 3000K. When the new bulbs arrive I'll put one of those somewhere in the middle and ditch the 6500K.










Will update on the new LED bulbs...


----------



## burr740

Here's Nymphaea minuta flowering. This plant is a lot more manageable than I thought it was gonna be. The leaves arent too big and you just have to pinch one off every now and then to keep it sized down right


----------



## ipkiss

nice! I was about to troll for an update! It's been eerily quiet without a burr update in months!

can it be? Burr is going LED! *gasp!*


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## Immortal1

burr740 said:


> Also grabbed two of these led T5. I dont think they've been out long, Ive never seen then before. Has 450 blue, 660 red, and 5500K. Could be a good bulb if the color looks right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agroled-isunlight-led-t5-tube-bloom/
> Will update on the new LED bulbs...



For the setup you have, it would be interesting if those LED T5's had diodes on both sides so that your reflectors could also be used (spread out the color a bit more).
Will be interested in your review


----------



## ReeferRusso

Immortal1 said:


> For the setup you have, it would be interesting if those LED T5's had diodes on both sides so that your reflectors could also be used (spread out the color a bit more).
> Will be interested in your review


This is an interesting idea. However, because these lights have built-in optics, they are not designed to work with any type of reflector. Reflecting the emitted light would be highly detrimental to output and basically render the reflected light nonessential. Also, the cost in creating a "2 sided" LED light does not make sense for manufacturers. The 2 sided light would require either another transformer plus wiring plus an additional heat dissipation method or a highly increased transformer with heavier wire and still the issue of heat dissipation. Couple this with the idea of nonessential output and it quickly becomes a non-starter. Come to think of it, I have never seen a 2 sided LED light and do not believe they are manufactured for reasons mentioned. I could be wrong though... 

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk Pro


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## FischAutoTechGarten

How have I never seen this thread?? Looks like I have some intensive reading ahead of me.. Your planted arrangements are stunning!!


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## Greggz

Hey Joe good to see an update.

Will be curious to see what kind of PAR and color that LED tube produces.

And that Nymphaea Minuta is a good looking plant. Just looks like it takes up a good chunk of real estate.

+1 on front end loading and large water changes. If someone really wants to step it up, do a couple a week for a bit. Whips a tank into shape.

And thanks for posting your micro dosing. I can put it in your file!:grin2: Mine are very similar but I am testing Mn at about double that level now. So far so good.


----------



## Greggz

Congratulations Joe!

Second place in the AGA International Aquascaping Contest Dutch category is another significant accomplishment.

Most don't understand the time and effort that goes into creating a Dutch presentation. It's not only about growing plants, but creating an artistic presentation that follows the Dutch guidelines.

As always very, very well done, and you should be proud. Here is a link for those that would like to see the presentation and the comments.

https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2020/show793.html


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## Immortal1

Congrats to Joe! Gregg has already posted the link, but something I found very interesting regarding the Dutch category...

"Sadly, only 4 of 26 entries this year can claim to be true Dutch tanks. Some of the best looking tanks are ranked low because aquarists simply do not know the rules of Dutch composition. — Vin Kutty"

I have looked thru several of the requirements for this category in the past and am still amazed at how specific some of them are. Goes to show, if you truly want to compete you really need to have a detailed understanding of what is required, then likely just as important, be able to meet those requirements. 

I think Joe has proven many times he has the attention to detail that is required to not only be successful at growing beautiful plants, but to also be successful in this very difficult category. 
Again, Congrats!!!


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## Hendy8888

Congrats! What an accomplishment to enter and rank year after year. Personally, I think you could have been placed 1st but that's with my limited knowledge of the rules.

I see your own distinctive style throughout your entries and feel like it's modernizing the dutch aquascape ever so slightly. I couldn't help but feel reading the judges comments that they are really looking for an entry that uses 'classic' plants in a 'classic' way with a 'classic' light spectrum to be a true Dutch layout. I applaud your efforts to capture the essence of a Dutch aquascape while introducing 'modern' plants and lighting spectrum.


----------



## Jeffww

Nice on the minuta. Once they flower get ready for babies everywhere. They'll self pollinate and the seed pod will rupture one day and spread them all over the tank. I've been keeping one for about a year now although mine stays pink/green. Do anything special for reds?


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## n70me

Congrats Joe!!!


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## ReeferRusso

Very, very impressive showing and a big congratulations, Joe! 

Sent from my mobile device using Tapatalk Pro


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## LRJ

Congratulations, Joe! Top three placement 4 years in a row, wow! You are an inspiration.


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## burr740

Thanks guys! I really appreciate it.  It's an honor to place second. Overall I was pretty happy with it. The plan executed and there were no last minute catastrophe, lol. Could've used a little more time with it, as usual

Here's the link to the entry page - #793: 284L Dutch Aquascape “Through The Looking Glass”










This tank is a good example of how difficult it is to get everything peaking at the same time. You can notice a few things on the right side are clearly behind the rest as far as filling in to look right. One judge pointed this out. Part of this is me not starting with the final arrangement soon enough.










Needs more spatulata and rubin, smaller-leaved species in both those spots would actually be better. The Blyxa needed another month to get fuller





































1. Corkscrew Val, 2. Limnophila green wavy, 3. Myriophyllum roraima, 4. Hygrophila balsamica, 5. Hygrophila siamesis 53B, 6. Red Tiger Lily, 7. Gratiola viscidula, 8. Hyptis laciniata, 9. Lobelia cardinalis 'small form', 10. Blyxa octandra, 11. Ludwigia rubin, 12. Bacopa sp CSP, 13. Staurogyne spatulata, 14. Nymphoides Taiwan, 15. Back Wall: Bucephalandra Mini Melawi


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## burr740

Here's a bulb update on the LED T5s. Gotta say I was pleasantly surprised at the color. They are strong too, 10-15% stronger on the par meter than a fresh 3000K (which is bright)






AgroLED iSunlight LED T5 Tube - Bloom | HTG Supply


Get the Bloom AgroLED iSunlight LED T5 Tube HTG Supply! Retrofit your existing T5 fixture with this advanced LED plant light technology for reduced power consumption, improved spectrum and longer life! Fast & discreet shipping guaranteed!




www.htgsupply.com




"Bloom spectrum 4′ lamps feature a combination of 450 nm blue, 660 nm red and 5,500°K full spectrum white diodes, and consume only 41 watts of power."

Here it is in a 2 bulb unit over a 50 gal, with a Geisemann Super Flora



















105 PAR at the sub. My par meter is a old Hoppy diy and I suspect not entirely accurate. Its a good reference point to compare, but actual par may be more or less.

Here is with both LED, this is what it looks like by itself.










Par at the sub pushing 120

So decent color and powerful. I like it. I liked them so much I bought 2 of these - AgroMax 4 Foot T5 LED Bulbs - Bloom | HTG Supply

"3500K + 660nm red enhanced output for blooming plants"

Its a good bulb too, like a suped up 3000K. Its about the same strength as the iSun. Here is what one of each looks like.



















Too warm as you'd expect, needs more blue in the mix.

Here it is with an ATI Purple.



















PAR at the sub just over 100

I'll be using the 3500K in 4-6 bulb units, basically replace some 3000K with it. On the 50 gal Im running the iSun+Geisemann like in the first pic

Here's the iSun along with Agromax pure par, Truelumen flora, and Powerveg 660










Dutchy off-season 










Here's the 75 gal Landen tank withTruelumen flora, iSun, Powerveg 660, ATI purple, 3500K LED, Wavepoint UG


----------



## ReeferRusso

burr740 said:


> Here's a bulb update on the LED T5s. Gotta say I was pleasantly surprised at the color. They are strong too, 10-15% stronger on the par meter than a fresh 3000K (which is bright)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AgroLED iSunlight LED T5 Tube - Bloom | HTG Supply
> 
> 
> Get the Bloom AgroLED iSunlight LED T5 Tube HTG Supply! Retrofit your existing T5 fixture with this advanced LED plant light technology for reduced power consumption, improved spectrum and longer life! Fast & discreet shipping guaranteed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.htgsupply.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Bloom spectrum 4′ lamps feature a combination of 450 nm blue, 660 nm red and 5,500°K full spectrum white diodes, and consume only 41 watts of power."
> 
> Here it is in a 2 bulb unit over a 50 gal, with a Geisemann Super Flora
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 105 PAR at the sub. My par meter is a old Hoppy diy and I suspect not entirely accurate. Its a good reference point to compare, but actual par may be more or less.
> 
> Here is with both LED, this is what it looks like by itself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Par at the sub pushing 120
> 
> So decent color and powerful. I like it. I liked them so much I bought 2 of these - AgroMax 4 Foot T5 LED Bulbs - Bloom | HTG Supply
> 
> "3500K + 660nm red enhanced output for blooming plants"
> 
> Its a good bulb too, like a suped up 3000K. Its about the same strength as the iSun. Here is what one of each looks like.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Too warm as you'd expect, needs more blue in the mix.
> 
> Here it is with an ATI Purple.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PAR at the sub just over 100
> 
> I'll be using the 3500K in 4-6 bulb units, basically replace some 3000K with it. On the 50 gal Im running the iSun+Geisemann like in the first pic
> 
> Here's the iSun along with Agromax pure par, Truelumen flora, and Powerveg 660
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutchy off-season
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the 75 gal Landen tank withTruelumen flora, iSun, Powerveg 660, ATI purple, 3500K LED, Wavepoint UG


Thanks for sharing the info and pics! 

I'm impressed with those T5 LEDs. Not much more money than a regular T5, with good PAR, less wattage and much longer life. They look like winners.


----------



## Greggz

I've got to say that is pretty impressive.

On the tank that was pushing 120 PAR at the substrate with two lights, what size is the tank? And how far from the substrate are the lights?

And they fit right into a T5HO fixture?

Wonder why these are not more widely known?


----------



## Tiger15

Dose Nymphaea minuta flower underwater?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> I've got to say that is pretty impressive.
> 
> On the tank that was pushing 120 PAR at the substrate with two lights, what size is the tank? And how far from the substrate are the lights?
> 
> And they fit right into a T5HO fixture?
> 
> Wonder why these are not more widely known?


That tank is a 4' 50 gal, 18" tall, like a short 55. The light is 23" above the surface of the substrate

Yep, fits right into a T5HO socket

I really dont think these ones in particular have been out very long. Ive shopped at htg a good bit over the years and never seen them before 2-3 weeks ago.



Tiger15 said:


> Dose Nymphaea minuta flower underwater?


Profusely


----------



## Quagulator

Congrats! The tanks are looking great as usual. 

Interesting on the LED / T5 combos. 

Is there any point on running the reflectors with the LED tubes? I'm a bit pressed for space and if I can get away without a reflector, those LED tubes might be a good option for me.


----------



## Immortal1

Quagulator said:


> Congrats! The tanks are looking great as usual.
> 
> Interesting on the LED / T5 combos.
> 
> Is there any point on running the reflectors with the LED tubes? I'm a bit pressed for space and if I can get away without a reflector, those LED tubes might be a good option for me.


Somewhere above or in another thread we were discussing the reflector issue (cause I asked, lol) - reflectors not needed as the LED chips are directional. So, in your case you probably are only limited by the width of the tombstones that the bulbs plug into.


----------



## burr740

Quagulator said:


> Congrats! The tanks are looking great as usual.
> 
> Interesting on the LED / T5 combos.
> 
> Is there any point on running the reflectors with the LED tubes? I'm a bit pressed for space and if I can get away without a reflector, those LED tubes might be a good option for me.


Thanks man! As Linn said it doesnt look like the reflectors do anything much with the LED, you can see in the pic they're dark.


----------



## Capsaicin_MFK

After trimming and replanting, how long do you usually wait to take photos for contests? I've noticed my scape looks the best like 1-2 weeks after messing with it.


----------



## burr740

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> After trimming and replanting, how long do you usually wait to take photos for contests? I've noticed my scape looks the best like 1-2 weeks after messing with it.


Usually as time winds down Im just giving each group whatever attention it needs. Its not really a case where most of the whole tank gets a final trim. Im trimming/adjusting something most every day those last two or three weeks.


----------



## burr740

What's up guys?? Here's a couple random pics, two sand 75's and the 50 with soil. Nothing really scaped much, just growing...



















White balance is a little off on this one


----------



## Greggz

Still the best farm tanks I know of.

I look at them like I am window shopping. 

What's the yellow/orange narrow leaf Ludwigia left center top picture? And the small red one center? Looks like a small Lotus?


----------



## burr740

Greggz said:


> Still the best farm tanks I know of.
> 
> I look at them like I am window shopping.
> 
> What's the yellow/orange narrow leaf Ludwigia left center top picture? And the small red one center? Looks like a small Lotus?


Haha thanks. Thats Ludwigia brevipes, pretty cool plant, easy.


















The red is a couple of baby Red Tiger Lotus, like the big one in the last dutch layout.


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## burr740

I will never own another marineland black siliconed tank in my life.

Heard a weird splashing sound, walked into the living room to this. Coming out of the bottom seam apparently..


















Like de javu, same thing happened to the 120


----------



## P.Isley

burr740 said:


> I will never own another marineland black siliconed tank in my life.
> 
> Heard a weird splashing sound, walked into the living room to this. Coming out of the bottom seam apparently..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like de javu, same thing happened to the 120


😱😱😱. Thank goodness you noticed so quickly. What did you do?!?


----------



## Greggz

Oh my not again.

As you know my 120 did the same thing a few years ago. It makes me wonder if I am on borrowed time.

What would you replace it with? I started searching tanks last time and it seems like they all have horror stories. And then you also have people who have them for 20 years and no problem. Is it just luck of the draw? Or are some really more prone than others? I don't know.


----------



## chayos00

Greggz said:


> Oh my not again.
> 
> As you know my 120 did the same thing a few years ago. It makes me wonder if I am on borrowed time.
> 
> What would you replace it with? I started searching tanks last time and it seems like they all have horror stories. And then you also have people who have them for 20 years and no problem. Is it just luck of the draw? Or are some really more prone than others? I don't know.


Maybe it won't be a bad idea to reseal your first tank. As in take it completely apart and completely redo all silicone. I would think it's definitely better to have a backup than no backup at all. When I set up my 125 I had resealed the inside seams since this tank is of unknown age. 

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## xrayguy

I can't believe that happened to you twice!
what are the odds


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## burr740

P.Isley said:


> 😱😱😱. Thank goodness you noticed so quickly. What did you do?!?


Right!! If it'd happened a couple hours later it would've leaked all night.

Fortunately it wasnt leaking extremely fast. I hooked up the drain hose and threw some towels down on the hardwood floor. Once the water level got about halfway down it stopped leaking, less pressure I suppose. By this time it was late so I drained the water down to about 3-4 inches, covered the plants in paper towels so everything would stay wet...and went to bed.

Next morning I took all the plants out, keeping only the best growth and tossing everything else. Worked about half of them into other tanks and packed up the rest like they were getting shipped. So they'll be alright for a few days.

Going to pick up a new tank today.



Greggz said:


> Oh my not again.
> 
> As you know my 120 did the same thing a few years ago. It makes me wonder if I am on borrowed time.
> 
> What would you replace it with? I started searching tanks last time and it seems like they all have horror stories. And then you also have people who have them for 20 years and no problem. Is it just luck of the draw? Or are some really more prone than others? I don't know.


I still have the 75 from my first journal. Ive had it 20 years and it'd been a salt water tank for 5-10 years before that. Its an All-Glass which is now Aqueon I believe. AKA Petco 1$ per gallon brand iinm, lol. So not an expensive tank. I have a couple more recent ones, and two TopFins that are about on the same level.

Its just those two black siliconed Marineland's that have leaked. And both popped a bottom seam. The 120 was on its factory stand. This one in on a home made stand that is very solid. Love the black silicone but Im done with their big tanks. Also have two 20Ls that have been OK

So Im just gonna replace it with an Aqueon or TopFin, something like that. And hope for the best...


----------



## Phil Edwards

Dude, that sucks!! I definitely prefer Aqueon when it comes to mass-market aquariums, though the TopFin 5' 120 long is gaining traction in the ol' noggin. 

I hope you're able to get this resolved quickly.


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## burr740

Thanks Phil

Got a new Top Fin 75 gal. Plants stayed in the bag 4 days. It was a little hard on some, a few L rubin melted but everything else made it ok.

Its a little empty atm.


----------



## Phil Edwards

burr740 said:


> Thanks Phil


You're welcome. . Would you please share your maintenance and dosing regimen so I can follow it while the tank establishes and the plants grow in?


----------



## ChrisX

Greggz said:


> Oh my not again.
> 
> As you know my 120 did the same thing a few years ago. It makes me wonder if I am on borrowed time.
> 
> What would you replace it with? I started searching tanks last time and it seems like they all have horror stories. And then you also have people who have them for 20 years and no problem. Is it just luck of the draw? Or are some really more prone than others? I don't know.


The stand construction and squareness could contribute. It may also come down to having a tank set up on a wood floor that settles/deforms over time, which translates into the stand, into the tank.

Lots of the DIY stand plans incorporate 2x4 studs, and we all know how warped they can be.

After I built my 75g stand, I spent alot of time using a sheet of paper and running it under the tank to see if/where there were high spots. I believe my 75g is an Aqueon, and it had a surprising amount of up bow in the middle prior to being filled.


----------



## Sepp0207

Hi.
I want to come back to your low level potassium experiences. Maybe you can answer me some more questions. I have in mind that you mentioned that potassium deficiency does not look like these small pinholes all over older leaves. Can you give a small summary how in your case potassium deficiency looked like? I do similar experiments and see issues like necrosis , yellowing older leaves. Bad color and twisted new leaves. Is that similar to what you saw?

greeting
Sebastian


----------



## aclaar877

Sepp0207 said:


> Hi.
> I want to come back to your low level potassium experiences. Maybe you can answer me some more questions. I have in mind that you mentioned that potassium deficiency does not look like these small pinholes all over older leaves. Can you give a small summary how in your case potassium deficiency looked like? I do similar experiments and see issues like necrosis , yellowing older leaves. Bad color and twisted new leaves. Is that similar to what you saw?
> 
> greeting
> Sebastian


I'm not Burr, but he has commented on my issues that might be low K. For me, I do have pinholes on the lowest Hygro leaves, but also virtually no growth whatsoever in Acmella Repens, Persicaria Sao Paulo, and A Reineckii regular. Hygro also grows slow compared to what it can normally do. Root tabs don't help, and the plants get very good flow with CO2. Over a dozen other plants are growing great, but these just sit there. New growth looks OK - maybe a little pale, but since they don't grow I don't top them, and lower leaves eventually deteriorate. For me, it's also been a while since I did a >50% water change, so I plan to do that plus a really good trim tomorrow. I suspect organics are keeping things from being their best as well. A recent NO3 measurement was 45 ppm, so I have been bringing that down too with no KNO3 this past week. From a distance, the tank looks pretty good, but when a few stem plants don't grow at all in a high-tech setup, something is off. A big water change, trim, and front loading macros at 20/4/25 hopefully will get things on track again.


----------



## burr740

Sepp0207 said:


> Hi.
> I want to come back to your low level potassium experiences. Maybe you can answer me some more questions. I have in mind that you mentioned that potassium deficiency does not look like these small pinholes all over older leaves. Can you give a small summary how in your case potassium deficiency looked like? I do similar experiments and see issues like necrosis , yellowing older leaves. Bad color and twisted new leaves. Is that similar to what you saw?
> 
> greeting
> Sebastian


Similar to what aclaar said, growth all but stopped, or became very small, colors faded. Acmella repens is a good example, lower leaves began to deteriorate but never showed any pinholes. It just turned pale with very small new leaves, and just sat there barely growing at all.

The only pinholes I ever saw during that whole year was in a couple hygro species, and by the time those pinholes showed up the tops were already small and pale. The lesson I took from all that is the textbook pinholes are not the first signs of low K to appear. It shows up in the tops and colors and growth rates before the pinholes develop


----------



## ChrisX

burr740 said:


>


Is this AR I see growing in sand? Conventional wisdom is that it needs an active substrate. 

Can you link your dosing? Root tabs?

It grows in my sand tank BUT the whole tank is algae prone, so I'm not sure how well its growing. It seems that when I plant a top, it takes a month for the growth to pick up, and a couple weeks for the donor to start growing reliably. By that time lower leaves have algae. If you trim lower leaves, will they eventually be replaced?


----------



## burr740

Current FTS. Ignore the multitude of of contrast fails, I just put a bunch of stuff that I needed a place for in there.










Also got a new Galaxy s21 ultra+ and these are my first tank pics with it. Havent quite got it down yet but can already tell its a lot better than the old s8 I traded in



Phil Edwards said:


> You're welcome. . Would you please share your maintenance and dosing regimen so I can follow it while the tank establishes and the plants grow in?


Sure, Im might as well journal this set up for a while. Not sure Im gonna make a AGA entry this year. This is the tank but tis too much farm atm and not enough time to get it right since I dont have room to move a bunch of species somewhere else right now. I might try a little 20H...been thinking about doing a small one anyway. We'll see..

Dosing Routine is roughly the same as as my 8 other tanks, half sand tanks and half soil. Personally I find the soil tanks need about the same thing (unless the soil is real fresh then it gets more PO4)

I do weekly 90%+ water changes. Then front load 18 ppm NO3, 6 PO4, and 25-27 K. Also another 10 ppm Mg (via epsom salt). My tap comes with ~40 Ca and ~ 4 Mg.

Micros, Ive cut down a little bit. Currently dosing .075 ppm Fe about 3x per week. I went on vacation for a week. before leaving every tank got a water change, full macros and .15 dose of Fe. Came back a week later expecting to see a few pale plants, etc. But to my surprise....every tank had exploded with faster than normal growth and colors were actually better! Go figure...

So since then Ive cut back from .075 daily to 3x per week. And I gotta say every plant is loving it except for C furcata, Pantanal, and Blyxa japonica var recurvifolia (formerly alternifolia). Those have always been notorious for loving higher Fe/micros.



ChrisX said:


> Is this AR I see growing in sand? Conventional wisdom is that it needs an active substrate.
> 
> Can you link your dosing? Root tabs?
> 
> It grows in my sand tank BUT the whole tank is algae prone, so I'm not sure how well its growing. It seems that when I plant a top, it takes a month for the growth to pick up, and a couple weeks for the donor to start growing reliably. By that time lower leaves have algae. If you trim lower leaves, will they eventually be replaced?


Ive always grown the regular AR in sand and it grows fine, with virtually no root tabs. The mini variegated used to grow great in my old 75 sand tank but Ive been keeping it in soil for a couple of years. It is more picky than the regular but honestly it doesnt grow any better in soil.

These regular I planted the day after the original pic a couple weeks ago.










Purple stauro is just now starting to come out, that 5 days in the box hit it hard probably

On the left, yesterday I stuck a few variegated scraps to see how they do now. Oddly enough, back in the day when the varie was in sand, it didnt seem to like O+. Just about every time I added some the leaves would curl real bad, which is already the main concern with this one


----------



## Greggz

Hey Joe good to see an update and pics. Lot's of great looking plants and great mix of colors.

Sorry to hear you won't be entering the AGA, but I get it. That is a massive undertaking. Don't think I could ever have the discipline to do it justice.

Interesting comment on the micros. After we discussed this a few weeks ago, I lowered my micro dosing by half just to see what would happen. Funny you mentioned the Pantanal and Furcata. They started pouting right away and clearly weren't happy. I went back to my regular dose a few days ago and they perked right back up. Since they aren't going anywhere, micros will stay back at 0.4 weekly.

And your AR looks great. As you know, I have never had much luck with it. Of course, hope springs eternal so might have to torture it again sometime in the future!

Also have to ask......what's in the plastic pot and why???


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## Greggz

burr740 said:


> I do weekly 90%+ water changes. Then front load 18 ppm NO3, 6 PO4, and 25-27 K. Also another 10 ppm Mg (via epsom salt).


One more thing.

You and I have not swapped macro dosing in a while.

With 90%+ water change, you are effectively dosing to a target.

Your target is 18:6:27.........mine is 20:6:30. I thought it was interesting how close they are.


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## burr740

Haha, the plastic pot is an a-flame purple knight. it was about 8" with 6-7 leaves...but it got algae. had it in another tank. So I took it out and soaked it with peroxide and let it sit for about 20 minutes. That was too long, leaves melted a few days later. its coming back now though, it'll be fine

That IS interesting how close it is. I was thinking you were lower on macros than I was


----------



## Greggz

burr740 said:


> That IS interesting how close it is. I was thinking you were lower on macros than I was


As you know this gets into that long discussion about dosing and how water change percentage affects accumulation.

I report my dosing as a "target". That is what I am dosing the incoming new water to.

If you really want to compare more exactly, your 18:6:27 at 90% is the equivalent of mine at 20:6.66:30.....almost exactly the same.


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## Phil Edwards

Heya Joe,

I feel you on the AGA entry thing. Maintaining a competition-level tank is a heck of a lot of work and is fun for a while, but can get a bit tiring as time goes on; especially when Farm Mode kicks in and the joy of just growing plants becomes your hobby focus. 

I hope you continue finding enjoyment in the hobby,
Phil


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## burr740

Thanks Phil. Im still planning to compete, it just may not happen this year because this tank that leaked was gonna be the dutch entry. Now its pretty late to start from scratch but I might try to put a smaller tank together. We'll see..


----------



## ChrisX

burr740 said:


>


Is that Rotala in the front? I have Rotala in my tank, but it grows just like that, semi-sideways. Is there a way to get it growing taller like a stem? Right now its looking like a foreground shrub.


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## burr740

Thats Rotala mexicana goias. It naturally grows sideways and branches a lot, best for a foreground bush or carpet


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## ChrisX

burr740 said:


> Thats Rotala mexicana goias. It naturally grows sideways and branches a lot, best for a foreground bush or carpet


If I have Rotala Indica and its growing sideways, what is the deficiency? I am suspecting a K deficiency.


----------



## Trying 2 Learn

I am completely new to the planted tank. Looking at these amazing photos and then reading tons of comments about the technical aspects of the hobby makes me think I'm in way over my head! 😂

Oh well, gotta start somewhere, right?


----------



## burr740

ChrisX said:


> If I have Rotala Indica and its growing sideways, what is the deficiency? I am suspecting a K deficiency.


indica has always grown straight for me, Im not sure what might cause it to lean


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## Notg2009

burr740 said:


> indica has always grown straight for me, Im not sure what might cause it to lean


Why would it grow these buds? Stress of transitioning from ur tank to mine probably, right?

Omid









Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Notg2009 said:


> Why would it grow these buds? Stress of transitioning from ur tank to mine probably, right?
> 
> Omid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Thats right. Those are new side shoots forming.

What happens to stem plants when they get shocked for some reason, like getting shipped, a deficiency, anything that makes them temporarily unhappy. As a survival mechanism the stem gives up on the main top and starts devoting its resources to making new growth, which (ideally) is better adapted to the current conditions.

What I would do with those is just let them go for 2-3 weeks andd see how the look. By then you should either have a bunch of decent looking side shoots that vcan be pinched off and replanted. Look for ones that have a root or two coming from the node the originate.

Or, if there's not much in the way of nice growth to salvage, cut the whole group down to about 2-3 inches and leave the rooted stumps in place. They'll come back out with better growth that's adapted to your conditions. Matter of fact this is a good way to fix stems that arent growing well sometimes, just mow the whole group down and let it restart with new growth.

Of course all of the above assumes you have a well running, clean tank with good co2 and ferts.

But nah I dont think thats a fert issue, at least not a specific one you can point to.


----------



## Notg2009

burr740 said:


> Thats right. Those are new side shoots.
> 
> What happens to stem plants when they get shocked for some reason, like getting shipped, fert deficiency, anything that makes them temporarily unhappy. The stem gives up on the primary top and starts devoting its resources to making fesh new stems, which are ideally better adapted to the current conditions.
> 
> What i would do with those is just let them go for 2-3 weeks andd see how the look. By then you should either have a bunch of decent looking side shoots that vcan be pinched off and replanted. Look for ones that have a root or two coming from the node the originate.
> 
> Or, if there's not much in the way of nice growth to salvage, cut the whole group down to about 2-3 inches and leave the rooted stumps in place. They'll come back out wit better growth that's adapted to your conditions.
> 
> Of course all of the above assumes you have a well running, clean tank with goo2 co2 and ferts.
> 
> But no I dont believe itds a fert issue because there's too much going on, too many so-called "symptoms" at once.


Thanks for the explanation. The same happened with the ramosior Florida I got from you but the side shoots look awesome now and I cut them off and replant, keeping the main stem in place to grow more side shoots...greed and capitalism you know [emoji23][emoji23]









Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Trying 2 Learn said:


> I am completely new to the planted tank. Looking at these amazing photos and then reading tons of comments about the technical aspects of the hobby makes me think I'm in way over my head! 😂
> 
> Oh well, gotta start somewhere, right?


Haha, dont even sweat it because we've all been there. I remember when I didnt know the difference between a ppm and a drop checker lol. Just keep reading and learning, it will all become very simple before you know it.

Understanding the importance of good cleaning and maintenance will go a long long way in this hobby. It doesnt matter how many big words a person can rattle off. If they're not stressing good cleaning and maintenance first and foremost....better listen to somebody else...


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## burr740

Notg2009 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. The same happened with the ramosior Florida I got from you but the side shoots look awesome now and I cut them off and replant, keeping the main stem in place to grow more side shoots...greed and capitalism you know [emoji23][emoji23]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


Yep, do that and you'll have florida coming out your ears in a bout 3 months


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## Notg2009

burr740 said:


> Yep, do that and you'll have florida coming out your ears in a bout 3 months


Hahahaha I had a good batch 3-4 months ago but lost those in another tank due to stem necrosis/droop. Not planning on a ramosior Florida kill tank now!!!

Thanks for the plants and all the help man.

Omid

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## burr740

The purple stauro is slowly coming back out, just now starting to show a little new growth. Looks like the existing growth is pretty much toast, none of these crappy leaves will get right just have to wait on new growth. I gave each one a couple single O+ balls. Thats the only O+ Ive used so far










Hygro balsamica you can notice some of the older leaves are a little rough around the edges, almost like they've been singed. Its from spending 5 days in a bag, and of course any leaves like that are gonna get algae. Thats really the only other plant with lasting damage from the whole ordeal










Rotala mexicana goias makes a nice little colorful bush. Pretty easy plant too. Gratiola viscidula to the left took a little damage, you can tell which leaves... just look for the algae



















The two green stems shaped like a pantanal is Pogosteman heidelberg. I like this one a lot, nice slow growth rate. Its a little finicky, stunts easily but recovers well too. Never tried it in sand, gonna see how it does.










Guess thats all for now


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## burr740

About three weeks in now and everything is coming along pretty good. I wondered if there'd be any 'new tank' issues like diatoms or gda, so far looks like Ive dodged that bullet. The front glass had a little gda for the first week or two. Lately its been crystal clear.










Gratiola cleared up nice, it shed the little fuzz algae. Variegated AR is showing some promising new leaves. Two out of three Pogo heidelberg stunted with new side growth, could be the transition coming from soil. Gonna give it a little more time.










Purple stauro is looking better. Behind is the other stunted heidleberg. You can see on the right side the main top that stunted, on the left side that's two new side shoots. Good example of what I was talking about before. It gave up on the main top and started itself over.










Hygro balsamica rebounding pretty good. You have to catch this plant early in the day when its fully opened for it to look good. Later in the photo period its more closed up and doesnt have the same visual impact. Didiplis is a little pale, might need a touch more Fe










Remember at first I said the balsamica leaves looked 'singed'. Here are those older leaves a couple of days ago. No big deal, just pinched all that off


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## Greggz

I'm impressed it looks like it was just a blip on the radar screen.

If you didn't mention it, would not even know anything had happened. 

Are you still on lower micros??


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## burr740

Greggz said:


> I'm impressed it looks like it was just a blip on the radar screen.
> 
> If you didn't mention it, would not even know anything had happened.
> 
> Are you still on lower micros??


Yep, dosing .075 3-4x per week in all tanks. One dose after water change with everything else, another dose next day, then 2-3 days later another one, or two if something looks like it needs it.

Ive raised macros a little bit, probably about 15-20%, not sure how much just dosing a few extra ML. Rough guess Im around 22/8/31 for two weeks now, up from 18/6/27. Something like that.

Why? Well recent talks w/you got me thinking. And also Ive been pondering over the response when I went on vaca - why did less micros seem to cause such a surge in growth and health that week?? It wasnt too much Fe or micros, Ive gone way higher than that with good results. What if macros were too low, specifically PO4? That would explain it. And since NO3 was pretty darn low at 18 I just raised everything. Nothing much has changed. Lowering micros may have already compensated to a degree. Everything looks real good so it certainly hasnt hurt...


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## burr740

Nothing much to report, just a new round of pics




























Purple stauro is coming out of its funk. The four AR mini in front are fresh planted tops off the stumps in back


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## Notg2009

@burr740 beautiful as always. Any tips on growing penthorum? It's supposed to be an easy plant but it's not really growing well in my tank. Water column dosing is very lean and I'm thinking thats the problem but aquasoil is only 3 months old. Thanks.

Omid

Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


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## burr740

Notg2009 said:


> @burr740 beautiful as always. Any tips on growing penthorum? It's supposed to be an easy plant but it's not really growing well in my tank. Water column dosing is very lean and I'm thinking thats the problem but aquasoil is only 3 months old. Thanks.
> 
> Omid
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 4 XL using Tapatalk


It doesnt like low macros in mine either. If one or more is too low it stunts and sometimes the stem turns brown and melts at the bottom. Tends to do the same thing regardless which macro it is, seen it do it with all three. Ive only ever grew it in sand though. Its such a fast beast when its happy Ive never wanted to try it in soil.

Try just raising PO4, the fresh soil is probably keeping that near zero in the water. Could be any or all three though


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## Greggz

Always good to see new pics. Tank has come strong.

And that orange/pink Rotala is a really good looking plant!


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## volcom6981

Awesome looking tanks you have. I’m just getting started in the planted tank world as I have always done saltwater since the early 2000. I love seeing that your a T5 guy, that’s all I have ever used in my saltwater, and now am using them with my planted tank.

So my question to you since you have been doing this for much longer then me, I’m using a ATI dimmable 6 bulb with 2 LEDs attached to them on a 40 gallon breeder tank. It is 12 inches above the tank, so about 26 inches from the lowest spot in the tank. With saltwater I never worried to much about blasting them with light, but now I’m worried maybe I have to much light? I have them dimmed slightly for now. I have plants in the tank now for about a week, no algae as of yet, things seem to be growing pretty good, color could be better, not sure if to much light will take color away or not. Before this I did a dark start and let my tank cycle for 3 weeks before even putting plants in.

So I guess what I’m asking here is should I just run 4 bulbs, or stick with the 6 I got going now. It’s all trial and error for me, but I don’t want to do to much damage so that’s why I’m asking. I’m pumping tons of co2 and adding ferts daily. Any help or suggestions would be awesome thanks


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## gjcarew

volcom6981 said:


> With saltwater I never worried to much about blasting them with light, but now I’m worried maybe I have to much light? I have them dimmed slightly for now. I have plants in the tank now for about a week, no algae as of yet, things seem to be growing pretty good, color could be better, not sure if to much light will take color away or not. Before this I did a dark start and let my tank cycle for 3 weeks before even putting plants in.


Not Joe here but too much light is not really a problem. As long as ferts, CO2, and water changes/cleanliness are on point you can really blast a planted tank with light. It's the best way to get good color on your plants. It's rarer to find plants that originate from deep undergrowth, like Anubias. They might struggle in super high light. But many stem plants are native to the tropics and grow under direct sunlight, so they can handle about the same amount of light that corals can.


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## volcom6981

Thank you, yea I’m running more of a Dutch style or just a tank with colorful plants, so lots of stem plants. Think I’ll keep running my 6 bulb, just need to find a really nice bulb combo. It’s very hard to find 36 inch bulbs for my fixture, but I went with all Giesaman bulbs. I have 2 of the Flora, 2 of the super purple, and 2 of the Tropics. I’m thinking of dropping one of the tropics for another pink type bulb, but not sure which one yet.


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## gjcarew

volcom6981 said:


> Thank you, yea I’m running more of a Dutch style or just a tank with colorful plants, so lots of stem plants. Think I’ll keep running my 6 bulb, just need to find a really nice bulb combo. It’s very hard to find 36 inch bulbs for my fixture, but I went with all Giesaman bulbs. I have 2 of the Flora, 2 of the super purple, and 2 of the Tropics. I’m thinking of dropping one of the tropics for another pink type bulb, but not sure which one yet.


If you haven't seen it yet, check out this thread about bulb combos. It's one of my favorite threads and I don't even have a T5 fixture (yet). Really shows how different bulb combos effect the look of a tank.


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## mudbugmike

So when you say black diamond blasting sand do you mean the $10/50lb bag stuff from say tractor supply?

I have a 55g with eco complete in it that I am indifferent about. I have 3 new tanks I am waiting to fill with plants but I can’t settle on a substrate. It would cost me a pretty penny to fill these with aquasoil and I don’t think I want the headache of a potting soil tank. I have my hands in the tank frequently.

Could you talk a little about the black sand? I’m interested in doing it myself but worry about it compacting. How thick is yours etc. Dennis wong (2hr aquarist) describes it as “sharp”. Is that something that could be dangerous to livestock? For example a geophagus sifting it or something similar.


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## Talhart

Black diamond blasting sand?


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## Quagulator

Talhart said:


> Black diamond blasting sand?


What about it?


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## rzn7z7

Talhart said:


> Black diamond blasting sand?


Yessir, this stuff

Black Diamond Blasting Sand


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## Talhart

Thanks, does It require prewash?


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## Quagulator

Talhart said:


> Thanks, does It require prewash?


Yes, most of it has a bunch of fine particle dust which easily rinses off. Some people don't rinse it and let mechanical media take care of it, but most do rinse it.


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## burr740

Hey guys!! Figured it was about time for an update. Been doing a lot of other things for the past year or so but Im still rolling along with all my tanks.

Here's the 75 Dutch about a month ago when I started tidying things up. Its just like all the others at this point...a tank with a bunch of plants stuck in it. So its not scaped or anything, similar plants right beside each other etc. Im just cleaning and pruning everything good.

Pics start 4-5 weeks ago, then various states about a week apart until now
































































Spot that algae lol?










Not sure if this tank is gonna be my AGA entry this year, I have new toy too...

Post is getting pic heavy so I'll put the rest in another one shortly


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## burr740

Got a new UNS 75p, 30x17.5x17.5, about 40 gal. Its in the living room










Landen Aquasoil
CO2 via inline atomizer, SunSun canister
4x24" T5HO, running two of those iSun LED bulbs from a few pgs back, still liking those things, one powerveg and one ati purple. PAR at the sub is around 120, except 4-5 " from each end it fades down to about 75 on the edges, since the light is 24" and the tank is 30". Which is fine. I made some little brackets for the time being but I think I want it hung. We'll see how it goes, thats plenty of light though



















Its been running a few days. Gonna plant it this weekend, thats just some scraps I stuck in there

Dosing routine hasnt really changed. 80-90% water change every 6-7 days, then front load 25/9/35ish + 5 Mg. Micros at .17 Fe 3x week. All tanks get pretty much the same routine. 

Here's the 50, recurvifolia is about to take over lol. Good candidate for the new tank..


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## Freshfishguy

burr740 said:


> Got a new UNS 75p, 30x17.5x17.5, about 40 gal. Its in the living room
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Landen Aquasoil
> CO2 via inline atomizer, SunSun canister
> 4x24" T5HO, running two of those iSun LED bulbs from a few pgs back, still liking those things, one powerveg and one ati purple. PAR at the sub is around 120, except 4-5 " from each end it fades down to about 75 on the edges, since the light is 24" and the tank is 30". Which is fine. I made some little brackets for the time being but I think I want it hung. We'll see how it goes, thats plenty of light though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its been running a few days. Gonna plant it this weekend, thats just some scraps I stuck in there
> 
> Dosing routine hasnt really changed. 80-90% water change every 6-7 days, then front load 25/9/35ish + 5 Mg. Micros at .17 Fe 3x week. All tanks get pretty much the same routine.
> 
> Here's the 50, recurvifolia is about to take over lol. Good candidate for the new tank..


Any guesses as to why your tank needs so much P since normal EI levels are only about 3ppm?


----------



## burr740

Freshfishguy said:


> Any guesses as to why your tank needs so much P since normal EI levels are only about 3ppm?


Well..if youre comparing it to standard EI, which is 1.3 ppm 3x per week, for a total of 3.9 - along with 50% water changes, you will eventually be rolling with close to 8 in the water due to accumulation. I change nearly all the water and go back with 9. So its not as much as it sounds like when you factor in wc volume


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## rzn7z7

burr740 said:


> Not sure if this tank is gonna be my AGA entry this year, I have new toy too.


I'm guessing the new toy is an RO unit....finally! 

Tanks look great as always


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## rzn7z7

burr740 said:


> Dosing routine hasnt really changed. 80-90% water change every 6-7 days, then front load 25/9/35ish + 5 Mg. Micros at .17 Fe 3x week. All tanks get pretty much the same routine.


Do you mind sharing the rest of your micro recipe? I've been using the same recipe for last 2 years but am always looking to tweak it


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## burr740

rzn7z7 said:


> I'm guessing the new toy is an RO unit....finally!
> 
> Tanks look great as always


Haha, thanks man. New toy is the 75p. I have too many tanks to mess with RO...couldnt afford the water bill lol


rzn7z7 said:


> Do you mind sharing the rest of your micro recipe? I've been using the same recipe for last 2 years but am always looking to tweak it


Fa sho. Probably a little more Fe now relative to everything else

Fe DTPA - .13
Fe gluc - .04
Mn - .029
B - .027
Zn - .025
Cu - .0022
Mo - .0011
Ni - .00012 (optional)

I dose that 3x week, first one right after wc. Have done half daily. Cant really tell a difference but doing these big wc I like going back with a bigger dose right after


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## burr740

Here's a few shots of the old Dutch 75 gal. Its basically a grow out tank now but it's still in the living room so I try to keep it looking presentable...mostly 


























Meet Buster the Plakat


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## Asteroid

Yeah I would say that's presentable,  

Question, on the Rotala SG, I bought this plant a little while back and it's the only thing I have struggling somewhat. I'm using tap, inert and have a KH of 4.


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## burr740

Asteroid said:


> Yeah I would say that's presentable,
> 
> Question, on the Rotala SG, I bought this plant a little while back and it's the only thing I have struggling somewhat. I'm using tap, inert and have a KH of 4.


I remembered we have similar water from when I bought those nice shrimp from you a few months ago. They're in the actual Dutch btw. I threw 10 more fire reds from a different source in there to tighten up the bloodline...done had a few babies 

I use straight tap with KH ~5, these are in sand but it grows about the same in soil. It can be a finicky plant, quick to stunt if it doesnt like something. On any given day I probably have 1 out of 9-10 that is stunted. Thats about as good as I can grow it and I just pinch those off and let new side branches come in. Dont show them in pics and dont sell them, lol. Thats how I solve it!

Now if yours are doing worse, say 50% or more stunted...idk. Probably needs a little more something. In my set ups it tends to balk at too little, not too much

Either way its not your KH or inert sub. Clean tank and good co2, Im sure you have that too. Light I run about 120-130 uMol at the sub, no idea what it would do under more or less


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## Joeyvan172

burr740 said:


> I remembered we have similar water from when I bought those nice shrimp from you a few months ago. They're in the actual Dutch btw. I threw 10 more fire reds from a different source in there to tighten up the bloodline...done had a few babies
> 
> I use straight tap with KH ~5, these are in sand but it grows about the same in soil. It can be a finicky plant, quick to stunt if it doesnt like something. On any given day I probably have 1 out of 9-10 that is stunted. Thats about as good as I can grow it and I just pinch those off and let new side branches come in. Dont show them in pics and dont sell them, lol. Thats how I solve it!
> 
> Now if yours are doing worse, say 50% or more stunted...idk. Probably needs a little more something. In my set ups it tends to balk at too little, not too much
> 
> Either way its not your KH or inert sub. Clean tank and good co2, Im sure you have that too. Light I run about 120-130 uMol at the sub, no idea what it would do under more or less


how long did it take your samo red to look big and send runners?


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## Asteroid

burr740 said:


> I remembered we have similar water from when I bought those nice shrimp from you a few months ago. They're in the actual Dutch btw. I threw 10 more fire reds from a different source in there to tighten up the bloodline...done had a few babies
> 
> I use straight tap with KH ~5, these are in sand but it grows about the same in soil. It can be a finicky plant, quick to stunt if it doesnt like something. On any given day I probably have 1 out of 9-10 that is stunted. Thats about as good as I can grow it and I just pinch those off and let new side branches come in. Dont show them in pics and dont sell them, lol. Thats how I solve it!
> 
> Now if yours are doing worse, say 50% or more stunted...idk. Probably needs a little more something. In my set ups it tends to balk at too little, not too much
> 
> Either way its not your KH or inert sub. Clean tank and good co2, Im sure you have that too. Light I run about 120-130 uMol at the sub, no idea what it would do under more or less


'

Glad the shrimplets are doing well for you! 

Yep, your right our water parameters are close and thanks much for confirming it's not the KH and the inert base. For some reason I can't get Vin's Rotala Kill info out of my head with the high KH/EI. I haven't purchased that many SG variants so wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something there. Since I posted, I increased my co2 a bit and things are looking better. One in 10 stunted isn't bad, I was running more like 5 in 10, but I won't post them either  

Thanks again!


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## burr740

Joeyvan172 said:


> how long did it take your samo red to look big and send runners?


Its relatively fast for a rosette. A young juvenile plant will be pretty fat in a month. It doesnt really send runners, not like Nymphaea sp, etc. New babies come from the main base, more like a Crypt or Compact Hygro. When they start getting too thick I pull them up and pare the babies off then replant

Now.. I have had it throw a 4"-5" runner up in mid air with a new baby on it, kinda like a sword plant does. But thats only happened once or twice. Normally they just make new ones from the base.


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## Ben Belton

Joe, sorry if there is a discussion somewhere else about your AGA tank, I can't find it. Anyway, I think your submission is awesome. It reminds me of the old pictures of Dutch tanks with the varying leaf shapes and subtle colors. It's really well done. Have to say I'm surprised you didn't win this one.


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## Jefflmod

Looks amazing!


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## burr740

Ben Belton said:


> Joe, sorry if there is a discussion somewhere else about your AGA tank, I can't find it. Anyway, I think your submission is awesome. It reminds me of the old pictures of Dutch tanks with the varying leaf shapes and subtle colors. It's really well done. Have to say I'm surprised you didn't win this one.


Hey Ben, thanks man! It needed a couple more weeks, they always do lol. Both back corners up high are bare, and the Rotala SG/Limno hipp shouldve been one big red group. But the plan came together alright. The guy that won 1st had a better Dutch, no question about it

Here's some pics


































Link to the entry page - #636: 144L Dutch Aquascape “Sunset Dreamin'”


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## rzn7z7

Gorgeous tank, Joe, and I can't imagine the time and effort that went into this beauty....congrats!

I just read the plant lineup here and had not heard of Rotala serpyllifolia before....looks like another one to add to the wish list...


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## burr740

rzn7z7 said:


> Gorgeous tank, Joe, and I can't imagine the time and effort that went into this beauty....congrats!
> 
> I just read the plant lineup here and had not heard of Rotala serpyllifolia before....looks like another one to add to the wish list...


Thanks Greg! Serpyllifolia is extremely difficult, one of the hardest plants in the hobby. Melts on most people. Idk what it even likes but it tends to do well in my set ups. Like Vin said in the judges comments, it really doesnt add anything to the scape. It actually takes away from overall scoring because its one more species when Im over the limit already, and just another unnecessary red plant. Truth is I just wanted to register a scape with it. Flexing as Vin called it lol

My vanity knows no bounds..


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## klibs

Awesome tank Joe. The lobelia cardinalis I bought from you is quickly become my favorite plant. It seems bulletproof, grows fairly slowly, and works great for mid/foreground like in your setup.

Like Asteroid I am also seeing the rotala SG stunt on me in some instances. Some stems are doing excellent while others are totally failing. It is definitely my "indicator plant" and will stunt easily when things are a bit off. I am still figuring it out but so far so good with the progress


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## burr740

Getting about time for a trim!


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## Joeyvan172

burr740 said:


> Getting about time for a trim!


what ype of filter are you running for a monster tank like this? I feel like my sunsun 525gph is weak with my co2 reactor on my 75gal


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## burr740

Joeyvan172 said:


> what ype of filter are you running for a monster tank like this? I feel like my sunsun 525gph is weak with my co2 reactor on my 75gal


Its a 75 gal and Im running one of that same filter, atomizer for co2. It really depends on how restrictive the reactor is. I wouldnt want any less flow


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## Joeyvan172

burr740 said:


> Its a 75 gal and Im running one of that same filter, atomizer for co2. It really depends on how restrictive the reactor is. I wouldnt want any less flow


do you have a link for the atomizer?


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## burr740

Joeyvan172 said:


> do you have a link for the atomizer?


Its a JBL Proflora Direct. The 19/25 size is hard to find. Im running 3 for a few years now they've been pretty solid. Do get some mist though, I just crank the co2. I dont even clean them that often, maybe once a year. I keep a spare and swap them out


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## Joeyvan172

burr740 said:


> Its a JBL Proflora Direct. The 19/25 size is hard to find. Im running 3 for a few years now they've been pretty solid. Do get some mist though, I just crank the co2. I dont even clean them that often, maybe once a year. I keep a spare and swap them out


do you get what people call "sprite"?


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## burr740

Joeyvan172 said:


> do you get what people call "sprite"?


Its more like a few bigger bubbles that quickly go to the surface. There is a little mist but not sprite water level


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## Joeyvan172

burr740 said:


> Its more like a few bigger bubbles that quickly go to the surface. There is a little mist but not sprite water level


alright thank you so much


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