# Low or no KH and low PH without a "crash"??



## Betowess

There is a facinating discussion at APC about a novel approach to water parameters which considers the merits of a very low or nil KH (like zero or 1dKH) and very low pH - well below 6 to 5 pH - with no ill affect to the fish. And the plants love it! Basically using RO water and only dosing CaCl2 at 20ppm and Mg for GH. Here is the link.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/science-of-fertilizing/27522-low-kh-and-ph-crash.html

I find the logic appealing in that many fish experience that type of water in SA. And running CO2 24/7 with an small airstone 24/7. And no reported fish deaths. The idea is that the pH will not crash, and the only danger is of CO2 poisoning, which the airstone prevents, assuming you don't OD the fish with CO2.

This is a very unorthodox idea and merits some serious discussion. Since I have this soft water, I could easily experiment with this approach. Obviously, it is not for brackish or hard water cichlids. I would really like to hear some feedback from some of the more experienced PT regulars.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

I have been trying to tell folks this for awhile in a gentle kind of way, I too use soft to very soft water KH of 0 to 2, pH of 6.5 to lower than I can measure. why? because plants grow very well in these parameter's,
I also keep various Tetra's, Ram's and shrimp in these parameters, I do not use an air stone but rather I use surface agitation with the lily pipe or spraybar.

No need to add all that crap that alot of folks add to thier water, like crushed coral, Ca, Mg, Seachem EQ, etc etc... the plant's or critter's simply do not need it.

Folks have plant problems or curling leave's they instantly "assume" it is Ca or Mg, it is not it is usually C02, if they will simply dose the sticky EI levels all that is left is light and C02. I have tested and proved this myself many times over.

Cardinal's, Ram's, Apisto's, Angel's can handle these very soft/acidic parameter's, Cherrie shrimp can handle it better than amano shrimp can also, I like cherries better than amano anyway.

*Post count*
I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.

One still needs to approach with caution though because you can kill some critters fast if the understanding it not there, surface movement is key in this approach or an airstone.

I also think the way one diffuse's C02 will determine what kind of agitation they will need, for instance if one uses a reactor an airstone may give better results than using the lily pipe or spray bar for surface movement without off gassing the C02 to much based on the amount of light one is shooting into the tank... it depend's 

I stopped using reactor's and now use glass diffuser's so the lily pipe or spray bar raised to the surface when lights out is all that is needed, which in turn kills any surface scum to boot.

I was wondering when this subject was going to be awaken.


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## SuRje1976

Hmm...looking forward to watching this develop. I had seen a few threads regarding this on the other forum and found it very interesting. Seems like it would be easier to maintain and there are testaments to its benefit for plants. 

My KH out of the tap is less than 2, and up until recently, I'd reconstitute to about 5. I stopped adding any carbonate buffer 3 weeks ago with my water changes and I've got the KH to about 2.5. I lower the pH at each water change so I can maintain the same CO2 levels. It's at 6.1 now.

It is too soon for me to tell what the benefits are going to be, but (not surprisingly) my Tonina seem to be enjoying it. I'll post any additional observations as they are observed.


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## ianiwane

I too run a really low pH. I know people running pH's below 6 without any problems.


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## aquamoon

When I set up my first planted aquarium, the levels were very low. It was running for 3 years or so with no fish deaths, and the plants loved it.Then i started to find out more and more about this hobby. The more info that i had the more that I though this was wrong.


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## Brilliant

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I have been trying to tell folks this for awhile in a gentle kind of way, I too use soft to very soft water KH of 0 to 2, pH of 6.5 to lower than I can measure. why? because plants grow very well in these parameter's,
> I also keep various Tetra's, Ram's and shrimp in these parameters, I do not use an air stone but rather I use surface agitation with the lily pipe or spraybar.
> 
> No need to add all that crap that alot of folks add to thier water, like crushed coral, Ca, Mg, Seachem EQ, etc etc... the plant's or critter's simply do not need it.
> 
> Folks have plant problems or curling leave's they instantly "assume" it is Ca or Mg, it is not it is usually C02, if they will simply dose the sticky EI levels all that is left is light and C02. I have tested and proved this myself many times over.
> 
> Cardinal's, Ram's, Apisto's, Angel's can handle these very soft/acidic parameter's, Cherrie shrimp can handle it better than amano shrimp can also, I like cherries better than amano anyway.
> 
> *Post count*
> I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.
> 
> One still needs to approach with caution though because you can kill some critters fast if the understanding it not there, surface movement is key in this approach or an airstone.
> 
> I also think the way one diffuse's C02 will determine what kind of agitation they will need, for instance if one uses a reactor an airstone may give better results than using the lily pipe or spray bar for surface movement without off gassing the C02 to much based on the amount of light one is shooting into the tank... it depend's
> 
> I stopped using reactor's and now use glass diffuser's so the lily pipe or spray bar raised to the surface when lights out is all that is needed, which in turn kills any surface scum to boot.
> 
> I was wondering when this subject was going to be awaken.



Hmm perhaps thats why your plants are growing so nicely for me 

If\when I tell someone about my water parameters they always tell me I am in danger. So I dont bother to argue. I find it funny however that my way of doing things closely matches this debated topic.


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## fresh_lynny

My KH is near RO out of the tap and I bicarb adjust to 3 and keep the pH @ 6.3. My amanos are fine and my fish are great. The only thing I had to do is put the Olive Nerites on a rotation. When I see pitting in the shells, I move them to my large outdoor water feature fo summer fun. I have 2 titanium heaters in the thing so year round this can be an option. Aside from that critters are fine, happy and spawning. I am still playing with my PO4 issues, but other than that, I added a small pump for agitation, and have an airstone click on when my lunars go on at night.


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## Betowess

Not to diverge on a tangent, but these type of water parameters makes using ADA aqua soils a possibilty for us blessed with very soft water. Before, I thought too bad, I can't use the ADA substrates as it softens the water. Perhaps this helps explain why the Amano's soil substrate grows plants so well. They are happier in that low KH/pH environ. 

Ps... thanks for the feedback Craig and others!


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## endparenthesis

Wow, my KH of 2 is looking pretty good now.


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## Hoppy

What has happened is that someone, who is a trusted aquatic plant grower, has said that we must keep our KH above 3 to avoid pH crash. That was then repeated by others as the rule of the game. Others, like me came along, read all of the advice we could find, including that we had to keep our KH above 3, so we assumed it to be the gospel and began telling others the same thing. This is possibly like the gospel that phosphate causes algae.

This is a fascinating hobby! If you take a 6 month sabbatical and come back to these forums you find that all that you had previously learned is now wrong! In a few months I expect to learn that lots of light is wrong and we all need to add intense blue light to avoid algae.


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## Betowess

Hoppy said:


> What has happened is that someone, who is a trusted aquatic plant grower, has said that we must keep our KH above 3 to avoid pH crash. That was then repeated by others as the rule of the game. Others, like me came along, read all of the advice we could find, including that we had to keep our KH above 3, so we assumed it to be the gospel and began telling others the same thing. This is possibly like the gospel that phosphate causes algae.


Hoppy, I was thinking the same thing might have caused this long held notion of 3 dKH to prevent pH crashes. Good point.

On the other hand, I think my thread algae was a believer... in phosphates cause algae. It liked any phosphates. Forgive my hijacking my own thread. I have sinned. LOL


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## fresh_lynny

well I am going to officially do this experiement. I will not adjust my kH so it will be like 1-2 and I will keep my pH at about 6-6.2. In addition I will try to run my airstone for the critters and dose EI regardless of what my real crappy test kits say my levels are. I guess I will keep an eye on my Amanos, I have 2 adults, and see how they act in the process. I will keep you posted as to what I see. Whenever someone told me I had to adjust my kH or I would have a pH crash, I thought...that is utter BS. Makes no sense. In my belief, CO2 will only get your pH down so much, so how far down would it crash to? I believe 5.5 is about the limit, and with surface agitation and/or airstone, this shouldn't be a big deal, just remove your snails so their shells don't erode. I moved mine to my outdoor "pond"
Anyway, I will keep you guys posted. I will do this over the next 2-3 weeks and post what I see.


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## Hoppy

I wish more of us would take the time to test things like this. In my case I just quit adding bicarbonate of soda when I change water, leaving me with KH around 2. I changed nothing else. After a week, the tank and inhabitants look the same. But, I so rarely measure pH I don't know what it is now. (Great scientist huh? Do the experiment, but don't take data.)


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## SuRje1976

Hoppy, I have started to think over the past couple of weeks that this HAS been tested and proven. I am currently "testing" this in my tank, but not really to see if it will work, but more to CONVINCE MYSELF that it will. I am taking a semi-scientific approach, and I have not observed any negative affects thus far. I cannot really imagine that I will. This approach makes sense to me and I don't keep livestock that will are intolerant to low pH/KH. 

I am REALLY looking forward to seeing how this pans out for me, for you, for Lynn and anyone else that chooses to "test" this. I definately intend to post EVERYTHING I observe.


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## Wasserpest

> I have been hearing folks here say for a while that one will have a pH crash if they do not buffer thier KH, I find it kind of humorous yet ignorant because it is not accurate information which is based on speculation and hearsay.


I find the above statements not humorous or ignorant, but too generalized. Just like the statement that you need a certain kH for a certain purpose - no, it all depends. For someone who has been into planted tanks for years and who is familiar with water chemistry, it might seem ignorant to talk about pH crashes, but someone who is just getting into this hobby (and there *are* a few on this site) CO2 is still somewhat of a mystery, and with no idea what pH and kH stands for and surface agitation means, it is a very different thing. 

PH crashes are very real. If you do some searching you will find a lot of "sad days" and "near disasters" and stuff that would have been avoidable if the water was buffered. CO2 the culprit, pH the culprit, it doesn't really matter, we are injecting CO2 which lowers the pH, no point in saying it is this and not that what eventually kills.

Many aquarium plants grow better in soft water. Nothing new. The most beautiful tanks I know feature low levels of 1 to 3 dkH.

(WP who is pissed because he can't grow Tonina in 10 dkH tap water)


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## mrbelvedere

Everything is so complicated for you guys with oh-so-soft water. 

my pH is 8.3 out of the tap, with an alkalinity and TDS off the test kit charts. I doubt my water could absorb anymore calcium or magnesium if it was on a bed of pure calcium carbonate. 

Never had a pH crash. Just doesn't happen. Not even worried about it. 

There's a few plants I can't grow, but hey, life throws you a few curveballs.

The point of the this rant is to be happy you have soft water. Lucky devils, the lot of you.


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## Robert H

> What has happened is that someone, who is a trusted aquatic plant grower, has said that we must keep our KH above 3 to avoid pH crash. That was then repeated by others as the rule of the game. Others, like me came along, read all of the advice we could find, including that we had to keep our KH above 3, so we assumed it to be the gospel and began telling others the same thing. This is possibly like the gospel that phosphate causes algae


Thats not really true Hoppy, or at least the way you make it sound. It was not just one person recently who came along and made this a rule of thumb, it was several people more than 15 years ago on the internet, and it has been in use for a lot longer than that. The KH/pH C02 charts go way back on the KRIB to the early 90s, late 80s. It was a practice by each and every one of the brainiacs of AGA that wrote the Plant FAQ and everything on the Krib. From old pros like George Booth, Karen Randall, Steve Pushak to you namne it. They were using the chart when Mr. Belvedere was still pooping his undies. One of the more recent adaptations of the KH/pH chart was from Chuck Gadd. His chart and calculator was universally accepted by people in many forums including this one. Roger Miller came up with his own chart just last year.

In this conversation here, it is mostly the same people who are discussing it on APC, and it was all started by one person. And while I do not doubt different things work for different people and if this works for people like Hoppy and Edward, then that is fine, but to perpetuate this to the point of telling newbies they can dump as much C02 into their water as possible and only stop when the fish are gasping for air is highly iresponsible.


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## mrbelvedere

Robert H said:


> They were using the chart when Mr. Belvedere was still pooping his undies.



So last year then?


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## Hoppy

All ideas start with one person, even if that was 50 years ago, then others pick it up, either test it and agree with it, or just agree with it because theoretically it is a good idea. And, no one that I have read here, including me, is advocating suffocating fish. I do advocate slowly raising the CO2 bubble rate a little at a time, carefully watching for signs that it is too high for the fish, and backing off if it is. What I have been doing for the past month is raising it a bit about every week or two, again watching the fish, but for several days, before concluding that it is ok.

It is certainly a disservice to tell folks that when their pH/KH/CO2 test shows 85 ppm, and they have bad BBA outbreaks, that they need to lower the CO2 down until that test says it is under 30 ppm. Chuck Gadd says in his web site that the test doesn't work unless you know you have only carbonates contributing to KH. And, anyone with a calculator, which most computers come with today, can see that a very small error in measuring pH, like a .2 error, can really mess up that CO2 calculation. Regardless of whether even Albert Einstein swears by the chart, it simply isn't accurate in the real world.


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## Betowess

It seems to me no one is telling "newbies" with no idea of water chemisty to dump as much CO2 into their tank as possible until the fish are gasping at the surface. I think the point is more at opening our eyes to the possibility that a lot of fish experience KH 0-2 water in their natural habitat during tropical rains and the resulting acidic runoff from the tropical forests. And the APC thread throws out some reasonable bubble counts to use (with the caveat to utilize decent airstones or lily/spraybar placement). 

I'm personally excited to try this. I'm not sure I buy the logic to forego calcium or mg dosing as Craig suggests. Also note on the APC site that they are recommending dosing CaCl2 to 20ppm for Ca and PPS dosing for mg if you are using RO water. If you have soft water and no hard water fish, this may be a new trend for CO2 injected planted tanks. I can't wait to try it out, but I'm going to transition with a moderate pace. That said, tonight I did a 50% water change with ~2KH water and brought the whole tank down to 4 dKH. The pH is at 6.3 and all fish seem fine. I think the Tetras seem extra happy. They usually do after a WC, but even more so tonight. And I yanked 90% of my crushed coral out of the can. Tommorrow I'll set the CO2 to ~ 100 bubbles per minute 24/7 and see how she goes. I have plenty of surface agitation with two XP3s. 

My only concern is Amano shrimp which probably require a bit higher pH and KH.


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## daveonbass

Hoppy said:


> All ideas start with one person, even if that was 50 years ago, then others pick it up.


Ahh but that's not entirely true...usually only one person gets Credit for the first published account...but most ideas are begat by many people at the same time and one person becomes the spokes person. with a nod to your avatar....even darwin was outgunned...Jean Baptiste Lamarck had sugested the idea of evolution, as did Alfred Russel Wallace who came up with the idea independantly from anyone. But it was Darwin himself that put pen to paper first and got public recognition in his 1859 "The Origin of Species." That and he pieces it together better...but still the idea was not novel...yet he get all the credit. There are too many people populating this world for any one of us to really be able to think that we are the only one who feels this way...Just who's gonna speak about it first.


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## Daniel*Swords

I have only the reports of my friend to tell...:icon_roll 
She has KH & GH virtually non existent in her tap water. 
Result: the S-A fishes are breeding like mad (plecos, angels, apistos, etc.). Unfortunately, the swordplants are not growing (at all) for her in these tanks but are doing well in the tanks that she's set up for Endler's guppies with higher GH & KH.

Some scientific reasoning on the pH crash can be found for example in Diana Walstadt's book.


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## fresh_lynny

mrbelvedere said:


> So last year then?


hahahaha


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## fresh_lynny

Daniel*Swords said:


> I have only the reports of my friend to tell...:icon_roll
> She has KH & GH virtually non existent in her tap water.
> Result: the S-A fishes are breeding like mad (plecos, angels, apistos, etc.). Unfortunately, the swordplants are not growing (at all) for her in these tanks but are doing well in the tanks that she's set up for Endler's guppies with higher GH & KH.
> 
> Some scientific reasoning on the pH crash can be found for example in Diana Walstadt's book.


Daniel, her swords could be stunted for other reasons. Maybe she is not using a good root fert, or maybe she is missing a trace they need. Amazon Swords should flourish in this environment. Unless she is doing the exact same fert regimen in all tanks or has the exact same fauna, you can't accuse only the kh as being the culprit.


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## Daniel*Swords

Point well made. Should never pass hear-say on...


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## Brilliant

fresh_newby said:


> Whenever someone told me I had to adjust my kH or I would have a pH crash, I thought...that is utter BS. Makes no sense. In my belief, CO2 will only get your pH down so much, so how far down would it crash to? I believe 5.5 is about the limit


Yah kinda! I am not an kind of expert so I dont say anything. I also dont want to sound ungrateful for all the good advice i get.

I think your right about 5.5pH...thats where I bottomed out.




Reading the comment about 6 months is hilarious...it tells me soo many things.

Ive been thinking about phosphates...I think its more of a imbalance of something...which is already documented...but in my case it was an imbalance consisting of too much phoshates and not enough of everything else..LOL...this may lead to the cornfusion that phosphates causes algae? I dunno.


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## fresh_lynny

Brilliant said:


> Yah kinda! I am not an kind of expert so I dont say anything. I also dont want to sound ungrateful for all the good advice i get.
> 
> I think your right about 5.5pH...thats where I bottomed out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Reading the comment about 6 months is hilarious...it tells me soo many things.
> 
> Ive been thinking about phosphates...I think its more of a imbalance of something...which is already documented...but in my case it was an imbalance consisting of too much phoshates and not enough of everything else..LOL...this may lead to the cornfusion that phosphates causes algae? I dunno.


That is correct. If there is too much PO4 and not enough NO3 and CO2, you end up with algae, so the thought was that PO4 CAUSED algae...not the case.


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## Betowess

It would be nice to hear a report from someone running low KH with Amano shrimp. How low have you taken the pH and KH? This is my biggest concern at this point, enough that I am considering putting 1/4 cup of crushed coral back into the cannister, but still not adding any baking soda to the change water to arrive at a 3 dKH.


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## Hoppy

I, too, would love to hear from lots of people about how low KH works for them, especially with Amano shrimp. 

My attitude towards new ideas here is to take them with a grain of salt, and if they seem to offer something of benefit to my tank I try out the idea. I did this with CO2 mist, for example, and I really do like what it does for the plants. I have done this with "high" CO2 ppm, and so far I am pleased with my results with that too. This I did after buying a pH meter, doing a lot of testing trying to find a way to get accurate measurements of CO2, posting some results of what I thought would make for better measurements, and, finally realizing that I just didn't know a way to get better measurements. I find it wierd to believe that in 2006 we still have an awful lot to learn about how best to grow plants in an aquarium, but that seems to be the case. And, back in 1960 or so, I just thought one went to a lfs, bought a bunch of plants, turned on the light and relaxed!


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## fresh_lynny

ok well, my pH is now at 5.8 eeeek....and the amanos are still ok...all of the fauna are active and busy doing the norm. I am about to do a 30% change just for my PO4 issue. Otherwise all is well. I am not seeing pearling today; however, and that concerns me. I did dose NO3 and K2SO4 this morning....Will keep you posted.


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## fresh_lynny

ok ...well there was no reason for the pH to be so low. I even plugged in values and did some old fashioned chem equations, and it didn't add up. After the water change it didn't move...stayed at 5.8 hmmmmmm deductive reasoning....check the pH probe.....yep It was off by nearly a point. Well that stinks, so I was light on CO2 for the last day and a half. Parms now...6.7, CO2 5 per sec, KH 1-2....


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## Raul-7

I remember reading over an experiment where soft water Characins were kept in water with a pH of 5 all the way down to pH 2, and survived. Sure, some Blackwater species thrive in low kH/pH water, but others will suffer - namely those of you who keep Rainbowfish; they have shorter lifespans in acidic water.


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## BlueRam

pH crashes are real. Think of your favorite carbonated beverage with a pH ~3.
http://www.21stcenturydental.com/smith/pH_drinks.htm

You can also figure that a KH of 3 is safer via buffer chemistry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution

Being contrarian is cool and all but at least get the chemistry right.



fresh_newby said:


> Whenever someone told me I had to adjust my kH or I would have a pH crash, I thought...that is utter BS. Makes no sense. In my belief, CO2 will only get your pH down so much, so how far down would it crash to? I believe 5.5 is about the limit, and with surface agitation and/or airstone, this shouldn't be a big deal, just remove your snails so their shells don't erode. I moved mine to my outdoor "pond"


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## plantbrain

The real question is not so much the crash, but does cause issues or is it a real problem?

When the KH==> 0 no buffer.
Adding a weak acid=> CO2 [aq] causes the pH to drop, but is the pH dropping due to this acid of any consequence to fish or plant health?

I'm not talking about ungodly high CO2 ppm's, just the issue of pH.

If you add 30ppm to a tank with 1 KH and then lower the KH to close to 0 with RO water etc and keep the same CO2 bubble rate etc, you should have the same ppm avail;able for the plants and the fish without the KH.

The CO2 never changed, but the KH did.

CO2 might be a tad less souble in the 0 KH, but that's about it. I doubt that's enough to cause any issues more than a couple of ppms.

I've been running several tanks for a few months at 0 KH, loads of fish/shrimsp(cherries and Amano's) etc.
No issues here.

So the KH was immeasurable via a Lamotte test kit which is good for 4ppm units. About 1/4 unit degrees.

pH does not apply since there is no buffer, you need a special probe for super soft water.

If you have no KH, then you cannot use the pH/KH chart and even a trace amount of other buffer systems and acids can really cause measurement havoc if you plan on using that relationship.

Something not often done when reports of fish from GH= 0, KH= 0 in the Amazon rainforest, they use the normal probes, not the specialized ones for purer water.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jhoetzl

Wow, I've often wondered how I have water with nearly immeasurable KH/GH most of the year (my water source changes at the end of the summer for a little while as far as I can tell), 

One or two drops in a double solution on a KH and GH test is about as accurate as I have gotten...

My pH, according to a freshly calibrated phPep5, 5.6 or so...given the equipment cost < $100, lets say it is off by +-1...

Fish don't die, plants grow - I pump Co2 in with lights on, off with lights off. Airstone on overnight otherwise I get gasping fish in the morning. If I cut back the co2 to less to try and balance it, I get algae within a week.

I had been adding baking soda and seachem eq, but I just don't see the benefits and haven't been adding them for the past month's water changes with no ill effects. 

Perhaps I should find some nice would to begin knocking on...

Oh yeah, and did I mention I have rainbows, and have spawed just about every livebearer (need hard water and higher pH - yeah right!) I've had my hands on.


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## Hoppy

Edward's original post on APC was intended to make us understand that it is very high CO2 levels that kill fish, not very low pH, which results from the high CO2. And, if you accept that, then avoiding a "pH crash" should not be a concern, but going too high on CO2 without careful monitoring to be able to quickly drop the CO2 back down when the fish don't look so well, should be our concern. He even added that he had dropped the pH of a low pH tank still further using peat, down to about pH3 as I recall, without the fish showing any problems. This led me and others to conclude that messing around with baking soda to "avoid a pH crash" was not a useful activity. But, we have all said that you just cannot jack up the CO2 level, go off to work and return in the evening, unless you have no problem with losing the fish.


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## fresh_lynny

BlueRam said:


> pH crashes are real. Think of your favorite carbonated beverage with a pH ~3.
> http://www.21stcenturydental.com/smith/pH_drinks.htm
> 
> You can also figure that a KH of 3 is safer via buffer chemistry:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution
> 
> Being contrarian is cool and all but at least get the chemistry right.


Coke is not highly acidic just becuse of CO2...It has acid as an ingredient in addition to carbonation <CO2>. Release of CO2 makes it more basic. Our tanks are not under the same pressure as Coke is, nor anything that is carbonated and remains carbonated. This is not a good conparitor. Coke is not a result of a pH "crash" At steady state Coke is at 4 tops, I would surmise.
All the buffering does is slows the delta so it has less absorption capacity. It is less forgiving without said buffer, but it does not mean that it is unstable, just less stable.


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## fresh_lynny

Hoppy said:


> Edward's original post on APC was intended to make us understand that it is very high CO2 levels that kill fish, not very low pH, which results from the high CO2. And, if you accept that, then avoiding a "pH crash" should not be a concern, but going too high on CO2 without careful monitoring to be able to quickly drop the CO2 back down when the fish don't look so well, should be our concern. He even added that he had dropped the pH of a low pH tank still further using peat, down to about pH3 as I recall, without the fish showing any problems. This led me and others to conclude that messing around with baking soda to "avoid a pH crash" was not a useful activity. But, we have all said that you just cannot jack up the CO2 level, go off to work and return in the evening, unless you have no problem with losing the fish.


That is my point. This is true as low pH is not the problem, unless you have snails critters without exoskeleton, i.e. shrimp. More of the issue is the delta of pH at an accelerated rate. This is what will be detrimental to fish, not a low pH as a constant. The relationship of KH/pH and CO2 presence is harder to correlate at a low kH because of measurability with common instrumentation, those that we use in the hobby....i.e....crappy test kits with color indicators and regular pH probes.


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## Betowess

plantbrain said:


> Something not often done when reports of fish from GH= 0, KH= 0 in the Amazon rainforest, they use the normal probes, not the specialized ones for purer water.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thanks for the input Tom. One question here. Are you saying that perhaps these "GH=0, KH=0 in the Amazon rainforest" are inaccurate, and that there is possibly higher carbonic and general hardness, or what? TIA


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## Betowess

Raul-7 said:


> I remember reading over an experiment where soft water Characins were kept in water with a pH of 5 all the way down to pH 2, and survived. Sure, some Blackwater species thrive in low kH/pH water, but others will suffer - namely those of you who keep Rainbowfish; they have shorter lifespans in acidic water.


But many of these fish have been bred in captivity for so long that a lot of the general habitat qualities are suspect. And many of the desired parms are really related to breeding, rather than their ability to thrive or at least stay healthy in a planted tank. I for one don't plan on taking my tank below pH 6.0 and KH of 2 for my Rainbows.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

There are several factors involved with this so called pH crash which I actually attribute to C02
poisoning or oxygen depletion.

To try and help the general understanding of what I know of what is going on in the water of
these acidic tanks, streams and rivers I will copy and paste some information I have found viable
in growing weeds and fish in acidic condition's. 

Biochemical Oxygen Demand, or BOD, is a measure of the quantity of oxygen consumed by
microorganisms during the decomposition of organic matter. BOD is the most commonly used
parameter for determining the oxygen demand on the receiving water of a municipal or industrial
discharge. BOD can also be used to evaluate the efficiency of treatment processes, and is an
indirect measure of biodegradable organic compounds in water.

Imagine a leaf falling into a stream. The leaf, which is composed of organic matter, is readily
degraded by a variety of microorganisms inhabiting the stream. Aerobic (oxygen requiring)
bacteria and fungi use oxygen as they break down the components of the leaf into simpler, more
stable end products such as carbon dioxide, water, phosphate and nitrate. As oxygen is
consumed by the organisms, the level of dissolved oxygen in the stream begins to decrease
Water can hold only a limited supply of dissolved oxygen and it comes from only two sourcesdiffusion
from the atmosphere at the air/water interface, and as a byproduct of photosynthesis.
Photosynthetic organisms, such as plants and algae, produce oxygen when there is a sufficient
light source. During times of insufficient light, these same organisms consume oxygen. These
organisms are responsible for the diurnal (daily) cycle of dissolved oxygen levels in lakes and
streams.

If elevated levels of BOD lower the concentration of dissolved oxygen in a water body, there is a
potential for profound effects on the water body itself, and the resident aquatic life. When the
dissolved oxygen concentration falls below 5 milligrams per liter (mg/l), species intolerant of low
oxygen levels become stressed. The lower the oxygen concentration, the greater the stress.
Eventually, species sensitive to low dissolved oxygen levels are replaced by species that are
more tolerant of adverse conditions, significantly reducing the diversity of aquatic life in a given
body of water. If dissolved oxygen levels fall below 2 mg/l for more than even a few hours, fish
kills can result. At levels below 1 mg/l, anaerobic bacteria (which live in habitats devoid of
oxygen) replace the aerobic bacteria. As the anaerobic bacteria break down organic matter,
foulsmelling hydrogen sulfide can be produced.

BOD is typically divided into two parts- carbonaceous oxygen demand and nitrogenous oxygen
demand. Carbonaceous biochemical oxygen demand (CBOD) is the result of the breakdown of
organic molecules such a cellulose and sugars into carbon dioxide and water. Nitrogenous
oxygen demand is the result of the breakdown of proteins. Proteins contain sugars linked to
nitrogen. After the nitrogen is "broken off" a sugar molecule, it is usually in the form of ammonia,
which is readily converted to nitrate in the environment. The conversion of ammonia to nitrate
requires more than four times the amount of oxygen as the conversion of an equal amount of
sugar to carbon dioxide and water.

When nutrients such as nitrate and phosphate are released into the water, growth of aquatic
plants is stimulated. Eventually, the increase in plant growth leads to an increase in plant decay
and a greater "swing" in the diurnal dissolved oxygen level. The result is an increase in microbial
populations, higher levels of BOD, and increased oxygen demand from the photosynthetic
organisms during the dark hours. This results in a reduction in dissolved oxygen concentrations,
especially during the early morning hours just before dawn.
In addition to natural sources of BOD, such as leaf fall from vegetation near the water's edge,
aquatic plants, and drainage from organically rich areas like swamps and bogs, there are also
anthropogenic (human) sources of organic matter. If these sources have identifiable points of
discharge, they are called point sources. The major point sources, which may contribute high
levels of BOD, include wastewater treatment facilities, pulp and paper mills, and meat and food
processing plants.

Organic matter also comes from sources that are not easily identifiable, known as nonpoint
sources. Typical nonpoint sources include agricultural runoff, urban runoff, and livestock
operations. Both point and nonpoint sources can contribute significantly to the oxygen demand in
a lake or stream if not properly regulated and controlled.

Performing the test for BOD requires significant time and commitment for preparation and
analysis. The entire process requires five days, with data collection and evaluation occurring on
the last day. Samples are initially seeded with microorganisms and saturated with oxygen (Some
samples, such as those from sanitary wastewater treatment plants, contain natural populations of
microorganisms and do not need to be seeded.). The sample is placed in an environment suitable
for bacterial growth (an incubator at 20o Celsius with no light source to eliminate the possibility of
photosynthesis). Conditions are designed so that oxygen will be consumed by the
microorganisms. Quality controls, standards and dilutions are also run to test for accuracy and
precision. The difference in initial DO readings (prior to incubation) and final DO readings (after 5
days of incubation) is used to determine the initial BOD concentration of the sample. This is
referred to as a BOD5 measurement. Similarly, carbonaceous biochemical oxygen test
performed using a 5-day incubation is referred to as a CBOD5 test.
http://www.deq.state.mi.us/documents/deq-swq-npdes-BiochemicalOxygenDemand.pdf

Fish waste, excess food and even filter media play a vital role in the success or failure of this
environment. But ultimately it is the lack of oxygen that kills fauna, very high levels of C02 can do
this also obviously, but with high levels of C02 you also get lower levels of oxygen, so the proper
amount of surface agitation is vital.

High quality filter and media plays a vital role in this environment also because it helps control
nitrate, nitrite and ammonia..nitrate is also a form of acid, nitric acid.

BIOLOGICAL FILTRATION

It is no exaggeration to say that the condition of an aquarium depends very much on the performance
of its biological filter. When the filter's micro-organisms are thriving, the water will be crystal
clear and there is no algae growth.

The chemical reaction that expresses the oxidation process carried out by the nitrobacteria which
converts harmful ammonia into harmless nitrate is NH3; NO2; NO3. The bacteria that converts ammonia
(NH3) into nitrite (NO2) is called Nitrosomonas, and the bacteria that converts that into nitrate
(NO3) is called Nitrobactor. Research shown that the remaining nitrate is about 70 times less toxic
than nitrite, but if enough accumulates in the water it canstill be harmful. Therefore, it is always
necessary to frequently change the aquarium water even when using a top-of-the-line filter.

So we need good filters and media, lots of oxygen or surface agitation, but not to the degree that we
degrade our level of C02 content....which will be evident by algae growth, fish gasping and or poor
plant health based on the amount of light over the tank, and keeping the tank clean and free from excess
organic's, dead floating, rotting plant matter, and frequent water change's.

It is an environmental thing.


----------



## mrbelvedere

fresh_newby said:


> Coke is not highly acidic just becuse of CO2...It has acid as an ingredient in addition to carbonation <CO2>. Release of CO2 makes it more basic. Our tanks are not under the same pressure as Coke is, nor anything that is carbonated and remains carbonated. This is not a good conparitor. Coke is not a result of a pH "crash" At steady state Coke is at 4 tops, I would surmise.
> All the buffering does is slows the delta so it has less absorption capacity. It is less forgiving without said buffer, but it does not mean that it is unstable, just less stable.



Active ingredient...phosphoric acid......very powerful...coke will dissolve a steak in 3 days......I did it for a school cience project.....


----------



## Daniel*Swords

I myself wouldn't be so worried about the low pH level than of the possible fluctuations of pH during the day. At least in Walstadt's book she describes how plants' photosynthesis and the consumed CO2 can up the pH a lot when there the alkalinity is low. Maybe this is not a problem with the high tech tanks and CO2 injection with pH controller but what about DIY systems and such? No problem?

Quoting from the book (p. 92):
"At an acidic pH of 5 and below, most of the water's [dissolved inorganic carbon] is CO2. At pH 6.5 the water contains about equal amounts of CO2 and bicarbonate, while at ph 8.5, almost allof the CO2 has converted to bicarbonates."


----------



## fresh_lynny

mrbelvedere said:


> Active ingredient...phosphoric acid......very powerful...coke will dissolve a steak in 3 days......I did it for a school cience project.....


Yes I clean my battery with it...That is my point. It is not the CO2 causing its highly acidic pH, it is added acid. So Coke is not a good representation of a "pH crash" which was the argument made. Just because it is carbonted doesn't mean it can be used as a comparitor.


----------



## Brilliant

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> I hope this helps all, at least some with their acidic endeavor's :biggrin:
> I have enjoyed reading the response of all that have post so far, let it continue that we may grow in knowledge :thumbsup:



Yah it helped. Thank you.
I looked to co2 to get my low pH habitat regardless of kh or gh, which are also on the low end of the scale. co2 is what led me to the planted tank.

So the debate here is that co2 will crash the pH in a 0-2KH environment?
Sorry for being a little slow.
Or is it that the lower the KH the lower the co2 you need to inject?

If pressurized co2 and 0-2 KH means pH crash exactly how long is this going to take? Ive been running for at least 3 months like this.

More questions...since my KH is nil and low GH does my Milwaukee pH51 handheld pH meter even work? accurate? I calibrate it often...does this even matter?


----------



## Betowess

Anyone who has recieved Craig's plants (Wolfenxex...I don't know how you type that) via trade has seen some of the healthiest plants that can be grown. Now I can't seem to dose EI with success, perhaps because I have too heavily stocked tanks. But, the proof is in the pudding - if you have seen his plants - that perhaps this low KH option is the real deal. I'm hoping that we do not need to approach 5 pHs to get there, just low KH levels around 2-3 dKH... 

And Brilliant, I believe you do need to dose some baking soda to get any reading on your pH meter. At least 1 dKH. At least the APC thread suggested that. And you may need to dose a little for GH too.


----------



## BlueRam

I was worried about including coke as there are a lot of other things as mentioned. This is why I like the particular chart I posted as it includes other sodas but you are right that there are other non sodas at low pH... So lets compare to "club soda."

Buffers are best at +-1 pH unit from the pKa (~6.3) so when you push below 5.3 or so the pH changes much more rapidly. I think this is covered in the post that suggests that you don't set and forget.

Also the species as a function of pH changes as posted earlier as CO2 as the easy to draw form is a Diprotic Acid.
http://curvebank.calstatela.edu/acid_base/acid_base.htm

So I guess I am trying to say that low KH tanks with aggressive CO2 dosing has some finite risk or collapse due to inattention or hardware malfunction. However there are many places where this occurs in the wild so read the fish and plants. I am also on the same soft PNW water as Betowess so I guess I should just enjoy it.



fresh_newby said:


> Coke is not highly acidic just becuse of CO2...It has acid as an ingredient in addition to carbonation <CO2>. Release of CO2 makes it more basic. Our tanks are not under the same pressure as Coke is, nor anything that is carbonated and remains carbonated. This is not a good conparitor. Coke is not a result of a pH "crash" At steady state Coke is at 4 tops, I would surmise.
> All the buffering does is slows the delta so it has less absorption capacity. It is less forgiving without said buffer, but it does not mean that it is unstable, just less stable.


----------



## fresh_lynny

We agree on that, hence me saying that it is much less forgiving at these levels, so attention is def. required. There is small room for error so to speak. I am stil at kH of about 1.5 and my pH is holding steady at 6.3. No problems to report as of yet, knock on wood.




BlueRam said:


> I was worried about including coke as there are a lot of other things as mentioned. This is why I like the particular chart I posted as it includes other sodas but you are right that there are other non sodas at low pH... So lets compare to "club soda."
> 
> Buffers are best at +-1 pH unit from the pKa (~6.3) so when you push below 5.3 or so the pH changes much more rapidly. I think this is covered in the post that suggests that you don't set and forget.
> 
> Also the species as a function of pH changes as posted earlier as CO2 as the easy to draw form is a Diprotic Acid.
> http://curvebank.calstatela.edu/acid_base/acid_base.htm
> 
> So I guess I am trying to say that low KH tanks with aggressive CO2 dosing has some finite risk or collapse due to inattention or hardware malfunction. However there are many places where this occurs in the wild so read the fish and plants. I am also on the same soft PNW water as Betowess so I guess I should just enjoy it.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Betowess said:


> Anyone who has recieved Craig's plants (Wolfenxex...I don't know how you type that) via trade has seen some of the healthiest plants that can be grown. Now I can't seem to dose EI with success, perhaps because I have too heavily stocked tanks. But, the proof is in the pudding - if you have seen his plants - that perhaps this low KH option is the real deal. I'm hoping that we do not need to approach 5 pHs to get there, just low KH levels around 2-3 dKH...
> 
> And Brilliant, I believe you do need to dose some baking soda to get any reading on your pH meter. At least 1 dKH. At least the APC thread suggested that. And you may need to dose a little for GH too.


Craig's plants are very healty. I can attest to that!


----------



## BlueRam

A prior thread (with pictures!) discussing CO2 and pH in crash like situations.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...bility-experiment-photos-video-evidence.html?



fresh_newby said:


> We agree on that, hence me saying that it is much less forgiving at these levels, so attention is def. required. There is small room for error so to speak. I am stil at kH of about 1.5 and my pH is holding steady at 6.3. No problems to report as of yet, knock on wood.


----------



## Brilliant

BlueRam said:


> A prior thread (with pictures!) discussing CO2 and pH in crash like situations.
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...bility-experiment-photos-video-evidence.html?



Can you point out where?

The author mentions this having nothing to do with pH. I just spent the last half hour reading that co2 disolves in water quickly.

The answer to the thread would be YES, you can add co2 with no or low KH without a crash. Unless your considering the fact that the pH reading goes lower when co2 is added is a "crash". 

Then there is that whole..."add plenty of everything" attitude....which doesnt exactly work with this low KH water....which I am assuming is the whole issue here.


----------



## fresh_lynny

lol well at least now I remember the Henderson-Hasselbalch equation...lol
No mention of pH


----------



## observant_imp

As I was looking for something else, I ran across a few tidbits in "The Science of Fish Health Management" I thought would be of interest in this thread.

(crudely paraphrased because I don't have much patience for typing)

In acidic water, ammonia presents primarily as ammonium which is nontoxic. In alkaline ph ammonia converts to toxic ammonia which causes gill damage.

Freshwater fish can survive in extremes from 3.8 to 9.0. Fish can tolerate rapid changes in ph between 6.0 and 9.0 provided no ammonia or other toxins are present. Most fish will show some distress at ph levels between 4 and 5. Fish kept in low ph water show damage to the gill epithelium. Nitrification is reduced at ph below 5.5--ammonium quits breaking down.

The author maintains that excessive water changes can reduce the vitality of some plants and other plants do poorly under autotrophic conditions and get a boost from water changes. They suggested 20-30% every 7-14 days for fish tanks and 10-20 every two weeks for plant tanks.

Factors affecting ph include number of fish, level of organics, nitrification, and buffering capacity of the water. They state that baking soda is an adjuster rather than a buffer and that changes in ph may not hold.

It's a 14 year old book, so take it for what it's worth.

Edit: Today's trivia--Salt water fish drink water. Fresh water fish don't.


----------



## fresh_lynny

observant_imp said:


> As I was looking for something else, I ran across a few tidbits in "The Science of Fish Health Management" I thought would be of interest in this thread.
> 
> (crudely paraphrased because I don't have much patience for typing)
> 
> In acidic water, ammonia presents primarily as ammonium which is nontoxic. In alkaline ph ammonia converts to toxic ammonia which causes gill damage.
> 
> Freshwater fish can survive in extremes from 3.8 to 9.0. Fish can tolerate rapid changes in ph between 6.0 and 9.0 provided no ammonia or other toxins are present. Most fish will show some distress at ph levels between 4 and 5. Fish kept in low ph water show damage to the gill epithelium. Nitrification is reduced at ph below 5.5--ammonium quits breaking down.
> 
> The author maintains that excessive water changes can reduce the vitality of some plants and other plants do poorly under autotrophic conditions and get a boost from water changes. They suggested 20-30% every 7-14 days for fish tanks and 10-20 every two weeks for plant tanks.
> 
> Factors affecting ph include number of fish, level of organics, nitrification, and buffering capacity of the water. They state that baking soda is an adjuster rather than a buffer and that changes in ph may not hold.
> 
> It's a 14 year old book, so take it for what it's worth.
> 
> Edit: Today's trivia--Salt water fish drink water. Fresh water fish don't.


Thanks Cheryl
Of course this book didn't take into account all of the heavy ferts in the tank that need large weekly changes. Even when I go to my LFS, they say oh no you change too much of your water way too often. They realy do not understand the differences when you have a heavily planted tank with special lihgting, and dry chemicals...etc. When I told one of the guys I was going to have fish in my tank when I cycle, he flipped out.

This is why forums such as this are so important. You have to share the experiences you have in order to come to conclusions on how to approach something that has been altered so much, such as planted tanks versus w glass box with a plastic scuba diver in it, colored rocks and buried treassure.

Anyway my 2c


----------



## Betowess

Of course there are other methods like the PPS which advocate fewer ferts and much smaller water changes unless one is "resetting" the tank. I think folks grow plants successfully in both. I for one am not convinced that huge water changes are that necessary, unless dosing to excess ala EI. 

BTW, interesting stuff Cheryl. And that has me wondering. The plants will take up all the ammonia as their nutrient of first choice, so the low pH should not effect that. But if the nitrification stops at pH 5.5, well, that is alarming and I wonder if that is really true. But if it is true, it might be a reason to not go much below ~ pH 6.0.


----------



## observant_imp

It was the ph where nitrification stopped that had me pulling the book off the shelf. I'd remembered that it stopped at a certain point and that ammonia was non-toxic in acidic waters, but couldn't remember what the ph was.

I'm one of those people who does 10-30% every week or so unless I want to shock the tank a little. I use RO/DI and can't see pouring half of it down the drain each week.

It is an older book (what the heck, I'm an older person). It isn't Moe, but is also isn't anywhere close to Fishies for Beginners. The book addresses plants throughout the chapter on water quality and has a section on plant tanks. I like more light than it suggests, but otherwise it goes along pretty well with what I've settled into over the years.


----------



## plantbrain

The whole nitrification issue is not much of one if the plants are provided for since they circumvent the NH4=> NO2=> NO3 bacterial cycle.

If you do not have actively growing plants.......say not enough CO2, limited by other things, etc, well.......then you will have issues.

A KH one 1 is plenty of get measurements and is a fairly long way off from getting down to the 0 KH range. There is always a little KH, how much is outside the range of the test kits folks use. But you can get low enough to get rapid pH changes with just a little acid or you can add small amounts of strong acids to remove nearly all the KH.

But more practical considerations come into play here: when changing water, most that have soft water, do not soften it further, nor do folks with harder water need to add reconsituted chemicals to their RO water, they simple blend 1-2 degrees of KH/Gh back into the water and then they do not need to make more RO water for a water change.

CO2 is _less_ souble in softer water with less KH............some it will persist longer as a gas, CO2 [g] rather than as CO2[aq].


gards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## daveonbass

I think he means that the PLANTS use up those elements. Ammonia, nitrite,and nitrate...these are taken up by the plants themselves, thus destroying the nitrogen cycle. In a tank with no plants the nitrogen cycle is important...it helps to establish the beneficial bateria in the bio filter, and the cycle in it's self can be harmful to the fish. But in a planted tank...if done properly...you will not have that exact same cycle so to speak. The plants will start to absorb the nutrients...ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate...thus breaking the cycle. That's why in a planted tank it's not nessicary to wait to put fish in. I guess technically (and according to REX and his guide) you can add all the elements from the start. start with the water...and filter, make sure you have enough light, substrate, proper ferts, and then add the plants and fish all at once...and wallah! The plants are teh bio filter and the ecosystem works well enough from the start to not be stressful for the inhabitants. 
But I'd bet that Tom has a really quick answer that will clear up any dought. i'm not that quick though.


----------



## Betowess

daveonbass said:


> I think he means that the PLANTS use up those elements. Ammonia, nitrite,and nitrate...these are taken up by the plants themselves, thus destroying the nitrogen cycle. In a tank with no plants the nitrogen cycle is important...it helps to establish the beneficial bateria in the bio filter, and the cycle in it's self can be harmful to the fish. But in a planted tank...if done properly...you will not have that exact same cycle so to speak. The plants will start to absorb the nutrients...ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate...thus breaking the cycle. That's why in a planted tank it's not nessicary to wait to put fish in. I guess technically (and according to REX and his guide) you can add all the elements from the start. start with the water...and filter, make sure you have enough light, substrate, proper ferts, and then add the plants and fish all at once...and wallah! The plants are teh bio filter and the ecosystem works well enough from the start to not be stressful for the inhabitants.
> But I'd bet that Tom has a really quick answer that will clear up any dought. i'm not that quick though.


Well, one correction on wording. The plants "circumvent" the nitrification cycle, not "destroying" the cycle, but the essence of your understanding is correct. But one still needs that bactrium cycle in the substrate, glass, filters etc. for a healthy tank.


----------



## observant_imp

Interesting--I had no idea that kh had an impact of CO2 solubility. Does impact oxygen levels as well?

While I'm at it, I know there's less disolved oxygen at higher temps. Does that the solubility of all gasses (i.e. less CO2 when the temps are up)?


----------



## plantbrain

There is less gas in warmer water and more in colder waters, this is true for all gases.

Does a liquid produce more vapor pressure (gas) at a lower or higher temp when you boil it?

It's sort of self evident.......

The CO2 KH solubility issue has messed with me and many others over the years. Many think softer water holds more CO2, or that adding KH will hold more CO2.

You can dissolve the CO2 easily/easier in harder water. 
That's why the limestone rich ground waters often hold a lot and the soft water systems do not.

Other issues such as no KH and poor pH measurements and other buffering systems in soft water complicate things when trying to see how much CO2 might be in super soft water.

Regards
Tom barr


----------



## Robert H

> You can dissolve the CO2 easily/easier in harder water.
> That's why the limestone rich ground waters often hold a lot and the soft water systems do not.


Thats a good enough arguement for me not to add C02 to soft water, or ultra soft water and to keep using the pH/KH chart. You can argue all day that KH testing is inaccurate or the chart is inaccurate, but it is an estimate and is 1000 times more accurate, stable and safer than going blind by just adding C02 until you see your fish gasping. It still amazes me that the justification given for doing this is that KH tests and charts are inaccurate. So you replace a system that may not be perfect with one that is stumbling in the dark. That makes a lot of sense.



> There is less gas in warmer water and more in colder waters, this is true for all gases.


This is why many plants have a much slower growth rate in higher temps. Keep a more moderate temp and you will have faster growing plants


----------



## Betowess

Robert H said:


> Thats a good enough arguement for me not to add C02 to soft water, or ultra soft water and to keep using the pH/KH chart. You can argue all day that KH testing is inaccurate or the chart is inaccurate, but it is an estimate and is 1000 times more accurate, stable and safer than going blind by just adding C02 until you see your fish gasping. It still amazes me that the justification given for doing this is that KH tests and charts are inaccurate. So you replace a system that may not be perfect with one that is stumbling in the dark. That makes a lot of sense.
> 
> 
> 
> This is why many plants have a much slower growth rate in higher temps. Keep a more moderate temp and you will have faster growing plants


I don't get this Robert. I have always heard most plants actually grow faster in warmer water, and because of that, sometimes more leggy. And the other thing is the CO2 chart maintains there is less dissolved CO2 at lower KH, so one could add more CO2 at a lower KH, to compensate. I also believe the charts are often wildly inaccurate and as such, "stumbling in the dark" themselves. 

One doesn't need to add CO2 until the fish are gasping, but rather by watching the plants and perhaps the amount of pearling. And I'm with you on the fish gasping. I have never agreed that was any way to monitor CO2 supply.


----------



## daveonbass

Betowess said:


> I don't get this Robert. I have always heard most plants actually grow faster in warmer water, and because of that, sometimes more leggy. And the other thing is the CO2 chart maintains there is less dissolved CO2 at lower KH, so one could add more CO2 at a lower KH, to compensate. I also believe the charts are often wildly inaccurate and as such, "stumbling in the dark" themselves.
> 
> One doesn't need to add CO2 until the fish are gasping, but rather by watching the plants and perhaps the amount of pearling. And I'm with you on the fish gasping. I have never agreed that was any way to monitor CO2 supply.


On the CO2 issue...I have found that the chart is grossly inadequat in my particular tank. I now have a PH of 6.15...that is tripple checked with two pinpoint PH monitors and one regular water test kit. And a KH of 10 to 12 degrees. So according to the chart...I have 238ppm of dissolved CO2. My fish should be dead...but they are not...and they are quite happy. So since my test kits are double and sometimes triple checked and even the LFS gets the same reading...obvioulsy the chart that I have from chuck is a little invalid at times. 
And I do NOT think that it is cruel to increase the CO2 (VERY slowly) and wait for the fish to tell you when it's too much. We're not saying to up it till the very last fish dies and then go back, we're saying up it till the first fish shows stress and immediately correct it back. That's no different than Walkign outside on a cold day to see if it's too cold and then going back inside to get warmer cloths. Or an even better (and wetter) analogy is like walking intothe deep end of a pool till your toes don't touch and then going back, and now you know what your threshold is. No one was hurt and no fish should die. And NOW we know where the CO2 limit is in our individual tanks.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Ok well my 2 month old Milwaukee pH meter decided to croak for no apparent reason. It was off by a point the other day when I recalibrated, and I thought that odd, but it really went haywire last night and still says 6.5...but it is obviously off as my CO2 ran on high all night while we were sleeping and I woke up to 3/4 of my tank DEAD!!!! I cried all morning, as 16 of my fish were new rare rainbows that I have only had for 2 weeks and they were so happy and healthy. My plants are happy as clams, but my poor fish!!!! I knowt his is what happened as my Betta is swimming around wondering where everyone went. All of the shrimp are ok too. I don't know whether or not to even bother replacing this crap meter. I am used to heavy duty meters in my old lab, this thing was horrible! I am sick about it. I contacted the place where I got the meter from 2 days ago and they haven't called or emailed me back. I knew it was off and wanted some answers, but it is now too late. I blame myself. 

When I get a new one, and things stabilize, I will be able to give more input on this pseudo experiment....in the meantime, I mourn :icon_sad:


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## SuRje1976

So sorry to hear about your loss! If you're able to find out what went/was wrong with the meter. please let us know.


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## fresh_lynny

ok well all of my rainbows are alive!!! thank God....they came back from the grave...i did a 30% change and ran the airstone on high and turned off CO2 and put on MH to use up carbon tank. Everyone made it but an already sick cory and one male swordtail that I loved....still very sad, but quite the bad outcome i thought....they hung on and improved and now are swimming like nothing happened....


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## fresh_lynny

Sergio the pH probe is bad....explains a lot.....I had a lot of troube stabilizig things from the start and I do evertthing so scientifically and try to dot i's and cross t's but was puzzled because it was obvious there was an inbalance from the start. I am sooo mad ...but it def is a bad probe. It won't calibrate....even turned all of the way to the right, it will not get to 7 in the neutral media....sending it back!


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## SuRje1976

Glad to hear (mostly) everyone made it!


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## plantbrain

Robert H said:


> Thats a good enough arguement for me not to add C02 to soft water, or ultra soft water and to keep using the pH/KH chart. You can argue all day that KH testing is inaccurate or the chart is inaccurate, but it is an estimate and is 1000 times more accurate, stable and safer than going blind by just adding C02 until you see your fish gasping. It still amazes me that the justification given for doing this is that KH tests and charts are inaccurate. So you replace a system that may not be perfect with one that is stumbling in the dark. That makes a lot of sense.



The observation do not suggest that the pH/KH charts are particularly accurate. 

How can a person have a CO2 level of 238ppm using test kits and calibrate them and making sure everything is correct?
Right there is the accuracy issue with the charts.
A 1000X more accurate?
Really?

The charts are not a bad *starting* point. Then tweak as needed from there if the results are not as good as hoped.

The 1.0pH drop using CO2 seems to work better on such tanks.
Doing this same method at a KH= 1 and then removing all the KH to = 0, is one way to do this is you have no KH.

The fish, the plants etc still have the same amount of CO2 in both cases as long as the flow rate of CO2 remains the same. 

Amano, nor the guys in the CAU, nor many other folks with green thumbs seem to worry too much about pH/KH testing..............nor did I.
We look at the plants and keep adding it till they look good and are thriving.
Gasping means you have too much, but..........gasping means a few different things...........

1. Poor tank circulation is one.
2. Not enough plant growth from other issues=> less O2.
3. Too much CO2 24/7.......folks with controllers often have this issue and reply too much on a test control method to dose their CO2 (or base their NO3 dosing etc on a some poor cheap inaccurate 7$ test kit that's not been calibrated, maybe we should not guess and accept they are all accurate huh?). 

4. Since high levels of CO2 are "bad", why shouldn't everyone stop adding CO2 24/7 then?:icon_eek: 

I mean since CO2 is bad at high levels, *why subject the fish to chronic high levels 24/7 when clearly it's not needed?*
Funny, no one talks about that issue and fish health.........

Which is worst, adding high levels of CO2 only during the day for say 10 hours when the plants are also producing lots of O2? Or all night long as well when it clearly has no role for the plants and certainly is not helping the fish?
Which method has the potential to *build up *and kill the fish easier?

Fresh newbie killed some fish with a pH controller. 
I hate those pH controllers. I do not suggest folks to use them.
This goes way back.
pH monitors are fine.

Then you control the CO2 with a solenoid at night and a needle valve. Your eyes, test kit measurements, plant health, when you add it(say only during the day) can all be considered before adding more etc.

A pH controller makes no such considerations other than pH changes.

And here's a real issue with this thread Robert, _have you tried 0 KH_?
Does not sound like it so the voice of ignorance is your only arguement:icon_eek: ???




Robert H said:


> This is why many plants have a much slower growth rate in higher temps. Keep a more moderate temp and you will have faster growing plants
> 
> 
> 
> Do you want to argue that colder temps produce faster growth?
> 
> Are you sure about that?
> http://www.saburchill.com/IBbiology/chapters01/0083.html
> 
> Basic biology...............
> 
> But up to a point..........too hot will slow growth down, generally above 30-35C, some plants do fine at 40C, most of the plants in Florida certainly grow fine at this temp.
> 
> But few aquarist keep above 32C...................and most do not keep below 10-15C, so the *Q10 law applies very well in the range we grow plants at*, thus.........you are wrong with the exception to perhaps one plant, the lace plant and even there it will grow faster and peeter out at high temps........The same is true for many planted tanks, they consume more CO2 and nutrients when it's warmer. So there is observations and research to back it up as well that this does occur as the temps increase up to around 30-35C.
> 
> Let me see you argue out of this one.........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
Click to expand...


----------



## Brilliant

This thread is awesome thank you for sharing. I am learning so many things.

I was going to question the use of pH controllers in this situation.


----------



## ianiwane

Tom I agree, I don't ever test pH or kH anymore. If your Co2 injection is stable that should not matter much. Also just watching your fish is a good indication of the CO2 level.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Tom, yes all and all, only ONE fish perished and I am sad about that. The rest are all recovered from the death dance they were doing this morning. It is not because I had the thing on a pH controller running my CO2 at night. I ignore the ph overnight, because once the lights are off, the CO2 is off. The problem here was that all day yesterday, the probe was saying that my pH was 6.3, right where I like it, and in fact it really was 5.6 because my probe is WORTHLESS! Anyway, that said, there are instances where pH controllers suck! They are great for someone like me that works 15 hours a day and cannot watch my bubble counter, but the signs were there for me!!! When I got home from work yesterday, the CO2 was still going rapidly, when usually by the time I get home it is off because it has its 30ppm in there. The plant outgassing was ridiculous and they looked happy, but my fish were sluggish and not as interactive as usual and they were very pale. Even my Plecos that like to hide were at the top of the tank. I found it odd, and just shut off everything and turned the airstone on high. My filter doesn't feel like it is pushing the same amount of water it normally does, and I even added a pump for movment. The point I am geting at, is that even with instrumentation, you have to look at all of the signs. They were all there, ad I did what I would normally do to remedy it; however, in hindsight, I would have done a quick 30% water change to give immediate relief. Needless to say everyone but one is ok. I am thankful for that. There is a place for pH controllers but observation is needed. I knew the probe was acting poorly as I had to recalibrate three times in 2 weeks and that should be a signal that something is up. I blame myself, but this is all a learning experience, and I am a scientist and should be able to come to the right conclusions at this stage of my life.


----------



## Brilliant

fresh_newby said:


> my probe is WORTHLESS! Anyway, There is a place for pH controllers


YAH...In the trashcan!

I apologize for twisting your words but I couldnt resist..LMAO..some humor..:icon_evil :icon_evil :icon_evil


----------



## plantbrain

ianiwane said:


> Tom I agree, I don't ever test pH or kH anymore. If you Co2 injection is stable that should not matter much. Also just watching your fish is a good indication of the CO2 level.


I think after some time you get a feel for things and no longer need to test for most things, the plants become your "test kit".

Most follow this path and most of the best scapers most defintitely follow this path.........they are not bogged down with testing and trying to figure out why, they are more concerned with the design and plant health.

Most of the basic info is available about "how".
The "why" is the longest of all paths even one scaping has evolved to a high level.

Still, knowing both is a wise approach and we have plenty of time over the years to try many different things.

After getting tired of doing some scapes, we can go back and ask the "whys".
Or after getting tired of testing, go after the scapes for awhile and stop testing so much.

While I'm often known for testing, you'll note I've never been a strong advocate for it in this hobby ironically.

I know the trade offs involved, the issue is, that other folks with less knowledge often claim otherwise and think I'm nuts. They love their test kits, perhaps too much........but they will come around after a few years and come back to the basics of looking to the plants and testing less.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Lynn, you never adjusted the back of the controler, right? That is for factory only. Only adjust at the front. Odd that it went wacko so fast. I'm pretty much with others that a needle valve and bubble counter and solenoid on a timer is the way to go. I've never had a big problem with my pH controler, except occasional calibration anomalies. Best to calibrate an electrode with the lights off. A light's ballast can give it haywire readings. Glad your fish made it. I have had that same thing happen and it isn't pretty, and most of mine came back from the dead. And that tank did NOT have a pH controler. One needs to be extra careful with this low KH/pH as there is not much buffer tolerance, but it sounds like a classic CO2 overdose...


----------



## fresh_lynny

Betowess said:


> Lynn, you never adjusted the back of the controler, right? That is for factory only. Only adjust at the front. Odd that it went wacko so fast. I'm pretty much with others that a needle valve and bubble counter and solenoid on a timer is the way to go. I've never had a big problem with my pH controler, except occasional calibration anomalies. Best to calibrate an electrode with the lights off. A light's ballast can give it haywire readings. Glad your fish made it. I have had that same thing happen and it isn't pretty, and most of mine came back from the dead. And that tank did NOT have a pH controler. One needs to be extra careful with this low KH/pH as there is not much buffer tolerance, but it sounds like a classic CO2 overdose...


Regardless of buffer tolerance, *this would have happened*. It would have taken a little more CO2 and/or time, but it still would have happened. This thread is for the purpose of realizing this and trying to give up on that though process. Tom is 100% right....really ignore KH and pH and look at plant health.
As for the controller, yes I know how to calibrate them. I know my name is fresh_newby, because this aquarium stuff was new to me, but after 12 years of college, med school, res, fellowship, I have to be able to justify my ridiculous student loan somehow~ I used one the size of my closet for 10 years, Just never a chinsy one like this. Usually when I calibrate, I do it in the darkness of the sleeve of the reagent anyway, so light is never an issue. It is a bogus probe. Right now it says my pH is 8....needless to say I don't have my CO2 hooked up to it right now, because it is obviously wrong. Not only does it suck but the thing is YELLOW! ha
As it stands, what I gleaned from this whole experience is as follows:

1. Look at the plants observe what they need, want or how they act.
2. Watch your fish, their behavior and their color!
3. When instrumentation starts to faulter, much like our hard drives, it starts off slow and crashes. The need to recalibrate a few times in one week should have been a sign
4. Physically turn OFF the CO2 at night, there is no need for CO2 to be pumped in when the plants clearly have no need for it in the dark <that one I knew>
5. cheap test kits suck


----------



## Betowess

fresh_newby said:


> Usually when I calibrate, I do it in the darkness of the sleeve of the reagent anyway, so light is never an issue. It is a bogus probe.


I wasn't speaking of light, but rather the electromagnetic pulse of a ballast which is said to throw off a calibration of a probe. That is why I said to turn off the light. Also, if pH had been higher, it wouldn't have happened because the CO2 would have shut off earlier.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Betowess said:


> I wasn't speaking of light, but rather the electromagnetic pulse of a ballast which is said to throw off a calibration of a probe. That is why I said to turn off the light. Also, if pH had been higher, it wouldn't have happened because the CO2 would have shut off earlier.


Yes this is true, but because of the pH meter malfuntion, there was no way to know what the pH was. What I meant about saying that was that KH didn't really matter, which is what this thread is about....i.e. this instant isn't so much about the stability issues we started to debate about, this was an unfortunate malfunction that made me think about what Tom said about his fundamental focus in running a successful tank, that being plant focus, fish focus and not relying so much on the controller. I said regardless of buffer tolerance......... KH I meant, not pH.


----------



## Betowess

Agreed. One thing I have always done when calibrating a pH is to double check the calibration by confirming within a couple tenths of a point with my Hanna pHep 4 or a AP testtube test and sometimes both backup tests. Usually all three are within a tenth. Lastly, lots of folks have used pH controlers without issue, though some have had problems for sure. That is why I am trying to go slowly on this pH/KH approach, keeping my pH around 6.2-6.3 and KH at near 3 at the present. Just to be safe. One of these nights I'm going to uplug the solenoid from the controler and go manual with the solenoid on a timer, like I do on my other tank. I just haven't got around to it yet. And the only reason, is I want to up the CO2 ... mine cuts off due to the controler working like its suppose to.


----------



## magicmagni

So I'm trying to understand why one would want a KH of 0? Better plant growth? Why would this help plants to grow better? Is it that the lower rate of Nitrifying bacterial activity at the low PH allows more ammonia (ammonium) to be present for the plants?


----------



## fresh_lynny

magicmagni said:


> So I'm trying to understand why one would want a KH of 0? Better plant growth? Why would this help plants to grow better? Is it that the lower rate of Nitrifying bacterial activity at the low PH allows more ammonia (ammonium) to be present for the plants?


No one is saying that getting a KH of zero is the goal, although 0 is highly unlikely. Even when you have RO water, once you add substrate and ferts, you will not have a zero KH. I think the argument is that having a very low KH 0-2 will not make a difference on the ppm of CO2 in the tank, as some classify as a pH crash. The only difference is that CO2 at that KH may be less soluble, more in the gaseous state than aq. pH looks like it "crashed" for the most part because pH with a KH of absolute zero, needs special instrumentation to measure, so it is suggested that a regular pH controller use with a kh of or near zero is not a good way to regulate CO2 induction. I don't think it is better or worse for plants, although many species do exceptionally well that way, hence the Amazon rainforest species. This scenario is mimicked <sp>in this instance, and these plants have genetically evolved to flourish in these conditions.


----------



## Betowess

magicmagni said:


> So I'm trying to understand why one would want a KH of 0? Better plant growth? Why would this help plants to grow better? Is it that the lower rate of Nitrifying bacterial activity at the low PH allows more ammonia (ammonium) to be present for the plants?


A good question. I believe a consensus has developed that plants do grow better in this low KH water. Why? I certainly don't know. Perhaps it more closely mimics a desireable natural habitat. As noted earlier in the thread some one asked rhetorically - why do the best tanks come from Asia ... places with this soft KH water? I think you might be on to something that low pH allows more NH4 to be taken up by the plants.


----------



## plantbrain

Some have suggested it's bad..........without...........of course.............*actually having tried*...........arm chair aquarist.........talk talk, yack yack, ............no *do*.

So is it bad?
No.
Is it good?
No.
Same with a KH of 1 or 2.

Folks spend time and dosing baking soda to maintain a certain KH, I doubt this is needed.

The goal not to get a KH of 0 etc.
It's to simplify things so we do not need to dose baking soda, monkey with KH etc.

A KH of 0 is very common actually in some planted tanks, non CO2 tanks often will go 0 due to plant removal of the KH, as well as some slight production of HNO3 acid from bacterial processes=> strong acid will destroy the KH.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Ah, but some genus do grow better in soft KH/GH water, correct? Such as Tonina and Eriocaulon and Ludwegia Inclinata "Pantanal", if memory serves me.


----------



## observant_imp

I'm still reorganizing book shelves (it takes a long time when you get distracted by the books). I thought I'd toss in a few things that are counter to the popular consensus on the board--note even the books don't agree. I'm paraphrasing--I hate typing. 

Encyclopedia of Exotic Tropical Fish (2005) 

with high levels of CO2 the ph will fall (we know this). This also reduces the fish's ability to remove carbon dioxide from its body, so its tissues become too acidic (acidosis). This affects a wide range of normal body fluids. In extreme cases, an anesthetic-like narcosis develops, and the fish becomes sluggish and may die. Prolonged exposure to CO2 levels greater than 10-20 mg/l have been linked to nephrocalcinosis (mineral deposits in the kidneys).

Hobbyist Guide to the Natural Aquarium (1991)

exposure to CO2 in excess of 40 mg/l for extended periods may lead to lack of vitality and resistance to disease in fish

suggests:
CO2 < 15 mg/l for kh below 2
CO2 < 20 mg/l for kh of 2-10
CO2 < 30 mg/l for kh > 10

Advanced Aquarist Guide (1969?--i got the book in 85)

no clear cut answer exists...in _some_ species excess of CO2 leads to a decrease in the power to utilize oxygen...only free (noncarbonate CO2) has relevance to fish distress...in any but very soft waters, much CO2 will be absorbed by the buffering system leaving little to distress the fish...with low oxygen and CO2, fish will gasp at the surface...when there is an excess of CO2 but no oxygen lack, the fish may appear drowsy, rest on the bottom, and rock from side to side...


----------



## plantbrain

Betowess said:


> Ah, but some genus do grow better in soft KH/GH water, correct? Such as Tonina and Eriocaulon and Ludwegia Inclinata "Pantanal", if memory serves me.


Yes, but...........that softer water range is wider than we think and if you go too low, well...........there is no too low........which is the point of this thread.......

The real question is .......how high do such species tolerate before the growth is affected? But that is a different thread...........

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

observant_imp said:


> I'm still reorganizing book shelves (it takes a long time when you get distracted by the books). I thought I'd toss in a few things that are counter to the popular consensus on the board--note even the books don't agree. I'm paraphrasing--I hate typing.
> 
> Encyclopedia of Exotic Tropical Fish (2005)
> 
> with high levels of CO2 the ph will fall (we know this). This also reduces the fish's ability to remove carbon dioxide from its body, so its tissues become too acidic (acidosis). This affects a wide range of normal body fluids. In extreme cases, an anesthetic-like narcosis develops, and the fish becomes sluggish and may die. Prolonged exposure to CO2 levels greater than 10-20 mg/l have been linked to nephrocalcinosis (mineral deposits in the kidneys).
> 
> Hobbyist Guide to the Natural Aquarium (1991)
> 
> exposure to CO2 in excess of 40 mg/l for extended periods may lead to lack of vitality and resistance to disease in fish
> 
> suggests:
> CO2 < 15 mg/l for kh below 2
> CO2 < 20 mg/l for kh of 2-10
> CO2 < 30 mg/l for kh > 10
> 
> Advanced Aquarist Guide (1969?--i got the book in 85)
> 
> no clear cut answer exists...in _some_ species excess of CO2 leads to a decrease in the power to utilize oxygen...only free (noncarbonate CO2) has relevance to fish distress...in any but very soft waters, much CO2 will be absorbed by the buffering system leaving little to distress the fish...with low oxygen and CO2, fish will gasp at the surface...when there is an excess of CO2 but no oxygen lack, the fish may appear drowsy, rest on the bottom, and rock from side to side...



These books are completely geared toward everyday fish tanks. Add a boat load of plant mass, outgassing pure O2 the entire time said CO2 is injected, and this does not apply. O2 is assimilated, whereby creating a dilutional effect of sorts of the real CO2 concentration. Yes there is a concentration that is toxic, but these levels quoted in those books refer to non or lightly planted tanks. That is my guess.


----------



## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> Yes, but...........that softer water range is wider than we think and if you go too low, well...........there is no too low........which is the point of this thread.......
> 
> The real question is .......how high do such species tolerate before the growth is affected? But that is a different thread...........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


YAY that is what I have been getting at! lol


----------



## Betowess

plantbrain said:


> Yes, but...........that softer water range is wider than we think and if you go too low, well...........there is no too low........which is the point of this thread.......
> 
> The real question is .......how high do such species tolerate before the growth is affected? But that is a different thread...........
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Perhaps Craig or others might chime in here how high these plants might be happy at. He grows some of Eriocaulon and Tonina genus, I believe. Wolfenexx??

FWIW, my plants seem to have responded well so far. Perhaps its higher CO2 having lowered my pH to 6.2. For some odd reason my KH climbed back up a bit to KH5. The KH might have raised due to ~ 5 lbs of newer Ecocomplete I added when replanting some C. balansae... or dissolving pond snail shells. But so far, I am impressed. Also, the lower pH/increased CO2 helped beat back a thread incursion which might have been from too high of phosphates. Regardless, I am becoming a low KH/pH convert. Maybe I'll post a pic tomorrow.


----------



## hrothgar

daveonbass said:


> ....even darwin was outgunned...Jean Baptiste Lamarck had sugested the idea of evolution, as did Alfred Russel Wallace who came up with the idea independantly from anyone. But it was Darwin himself that put pen to paper first and got public recognition in his 1859 "The Origin of Species." That and he pieces it together better...but still the idea was not novel...yet he get all the credit. There are too many people populating this world for any one of us to really be able to think that we are the only one who feels this way...Just who's gonna speak about it first.


There are also too many people spouting off whatever comes into their heads without knowing what they're talking about. 
Lamarck and others may have been discussing 'evolution' before Darwin, but Darwin isn't famous for the idea of 'evolution'. He's famous for the idea of 'evolution by natural selection' which is quite a bit more sophisticated. Some would say that Alfred Wallace published the first paper describing natural selection, but the first known recording of the idea comes from Darwin's journal, written when Wallace was 14 years old. 
Yes, I'm grumpy.


----------



## hrothgar

daveonbass said:


> ...and then add the plants and fish all at once...and wallah!


This is so irritating everytime I see it. The word is 'voila', dammit. It's French. It means "there you go" (roughly).


----------



## Brilliant

hrothgar said:


> This is so irritating everytime I see it. The word is 'voila', dammit. It's French. It means "there you go" (roughly).


Welcome to planted tank.net  

I am sure daveonbass understands this isnt personal... hrothgar is from Grumpville. :smile:



Betowess I have some nice plants from Wö£fëñxXx. They are growing great I will be taking pics today.


----------



## SuRje1976

Well, this is where I'm at:

I've got my KH down to 3 (from 6) and my GH down to 3.5 (from 10). My pH is down to 6.0 from 6.6. I did this all slowly over the past month or so. 

Everyting looks great! My plants look much healthier and happier, especially the Tonina (as expected - they're new to the tank - got them at the beginning of this "experiment"). Interestingly though, my sword plant, which I previously suspected to be calcium deprived, seems to be growing quicker and without the wrinkling characteristic of calcium depriviation - with LESS calcium. Odd?

The fish don't really seem to be affected. They're neither happier nor unhappy. 

I'm going to continue the experiment, but I probably won't get the parameters much lower until the RO arrives.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Betowess said:


> Perhaps Craig or others might chime in here how high these plants might be happy at. He grows some of Eriocaulon and Tonina genus, I believe. Wolfenexx??
> 
> FWIW, my plants seem to have responded well so far. Perhaps its higher CO2 having lowered my pH to 6.2. For some odd reason my KH climbed back up a bit to KH5. The KH might have raised due to ~ 5 lbs of newer Ecocomplete I added when replanting some C. balansae... or dissolving pond snail shells. But so far, I am impressed. Also, the lower pH/increased CO2 helped beat back a thread incursion which might have been from too high of phosphates. Regardless, I am becoming a low KH/pH convert. Maybe I'll post a pic tomorrow.


yeah post some pics!


----------



## fresh_lynny

SuRje1976 said:


> Well, this is where I'm at:
> 
> I've got my KH down to 3 (from 6) and my GH down to 3.5 (from 10). My pH is down to 6.0 from 6.6. I did this all slowly over the past month or so.
> 
> Everyting looks great! My plants look much healthier and happier, especially the Tonina (as expected - they're new to the tank - got them at the beginning of this "experiment").
> 
> The fish don't really seem to be affected. They're neither happier nor unhappy.
> 
> I'm going to continue the experiment, but I probably won't get the parameters much lower until the RO arrives.


Yeah Sergio....grow that Tonina so you can share some with me! lol


----------



## ianiwane

SuRje1976 said:


> Well, this is where I'm at:
> 
> I've got my KH down to 3 (from 6) and my GH down to 3.5 (from 10). My pH is down to 6.0 from 6.6. I did this all slowly over the past month or so.
> 
> Everyting looks great! My plants look much healthier and happier, especially the Tonina (as expected - they're new to the tank - got them at the beginning of this "experiment"). Interestingly though, my sword plant, which I previously suspected to be calcium deprived, seems to be growing quicker and without the wrinkling characteristic of calcium depriviation - with LESS calcium. Odd?
> 
> The fish don't really seem to be affected. They're neither happier nor unhappy.
> 
> I'm going to continue the experiment, but I probably won't get the parameters much lower until the RO arrives.


One thing though, don't drop your gH too low. Plants seem to like lower kHs but don't seem to care if the gH is high or low. They will do better with a moderate gH, rather than a low gH.


----------



## SuRje1976

ianiwane said:


> They will do better with a moderate gH, rather than a low gH.


Thanks Ian. I will make sure I maintain the gH.


----------



## plantbrain

Yuo will also seriously note good, higher CO23 addresses most issues...........and folks seem to assume it's deficiency problems with Ca, who knows what all.............and then assume they have good CO2, when they do not..........

Hard to analzye KH or a nutrient when you have confounding factors to start with.............

Which is why you cannot be complacent about CO2. You can provide the nutrients easily to where they are non limiting, then use the CO2 from there.

Now......you can finally start manipulating the KH(not the GH, leave it 2-3 and well balanced(some Ca and some Mg, not too little of either) or higher.

Then you have ruled out other issues for poor growth(there's light and routine maintanace etc and other issues as well potentially).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

hrothgar said:


> Yes, I'm grumpy.


Cracking me up!:thumbsup: Ditto, welcome to the board.


----------



## plantbrain

I like "Crotchey"= permanently grumpy

It gets worse the longer you are in the hobby.:redface: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

Yeah, look what it did to Rex...our resident "Curmudgeon". LOL


----------



## plantbrain

Funny thing is, Rex and I get along perfectly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fresh_lynny

plantbrain said:


> Funny thing is, Rex and I get along perfectly.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


I get Rex too...lol I am crotchety for sure :icon_redf


----------



## Betowess

Yeah the "curmudgeon" is actually a great guy, but don't tell him I said it. Lynn, I posted those pics in the photo section rather than dumping in this thread.


----------



## SuRje1976

Anyone have updates on this? All is still well with my tank, and I am now at:

pH 5.9
KH 1.0-1.5
GH 4-5

I've been at there parameters for about 3 weeks. Anyone else?


----------



## Betowess

Sergio, Thanks for sharing. I've been meaning to bring this thread up again.

I have been running at: 

KH 1.5-2 
pH 6.3 
GH 5

All for well over three weeks. Plants look great and some I couldn't grow well started doing a lot better like Ludwegia Arcuata and Rotala goias. They are actually growing fantastic. No problems with the fish and I actually raised the pH up to 6.3-6.4 from a low of 6.0 because I was concerned for my Rainbowfish. Shrimp are fine as well. 

*I am pretty much a convert* and baking soda is retired except for the Cherry shrimp tank. I may be losing my soft well water as we had some copper pipe spring leaks in our plumbing so we had to order a "acid nuetralizer" which will raise the pH upto 6.8-7.8 from 5.2 out of the tap. It will be installed Saturday... I may have a bypass put in and hose water for the tanks if the pH is too awful high.


----------



## plantbrain

So.....you folks learned the myths are not true

Good.

A KH of 1 is fine, not any issue with that, it's when you get to zero, but even there, I've not had any issues.

These horrid pH crash hysteria stories folks tell, but none of them can say it's really an issue.

With good reason, if they try it themselves they fine the observations do not jive(science jargon with the hypothesis. 

If it is as they say, an issue, why don't more folks have these supposed issues?

I do not think anyone really suggested that you need more than 1-2 KH really, this is mainly for the CO2, pH/KH thing.

If the plants go after the KH then you cannot measure the CO2ppm which is often seen as an issue once the plants use up the small amount of bicarb.

But there are ways around needing to have KH in the tank to arrive at a good CO2 ppm also.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## banderbe

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> No need to add all that crap that alot of folks add to thier water, like crushed coral, Ca, Mg, Seachem EQ, etc etc... the plant's or critter's simply do not need it.


What?? Are you saying a GH of 0 is okay? I sure hope not because I am pretty sure that would be wrong.

I add GH Booster to my tank because without it my GH is 0 and Tom Barr has said that a GH of at least 5 is recommended.


----------



## Betowess

I think the consensus is to shoot for a 5-6 GH. Thats what Ian said some time back as well and I immediately started dosing Ca and Mg again.


----------



## plantbrain

banderbe said:


> What?? Are you saying a GH of 0 is okay? I sure hope not because I am pretty sure that would be wrong.
> 
> I add GH Booster to my tank because without it my GH is 0 and Tom Barr has said that a GH of at least 5 is recommended.


You can get away with less, but 3-4 seems good to me.
KH is not a nutrient unless you have no CO2.

GH most certainly is.
For some folks, their tap's GH and water change routines will provide all that's needed. If you want to make sure there is enough Mg or Ca, adding another 1-2 degrees will help without testing, Ca/Mg and KH can vary in the supply also.

This is what I typically do and have done for a very long time(1997 or so).


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## banderbe

That's what I thought.. I dose 3/4 tsp of GH Booster after a water change, and it puts my 29 gallon at around 5 dGH.


----------



## mrbelvedere

pH is more sensitive then you might think. 

I recently stuffed my 15 gallon with Malaysian driftwood. Turned the water so dark it looked black. 

Dropped my pH from 8.2 to less then 7.2 (I have a high range pH test kit).

Killed one of my snowballs.


----------



## Betowess

I am going to guess it was the rapidity of the change which did the snowball in, rather than the change itself. But I have no idea what a snowball is, except when my son throws one at me.


----------



## plantbrain

mrbelvedere said:


> pH is more sensitive then you might think.
> 
> I recently stuffed my 15 gallon with Malaysian driftwood. Turned the water so dark it looked black.
> 
> Dropped my pH from 8.2 to less then 7.2 (I have a high range pH test kit).
> 
> Killed one of my snowballs.


Tannins and other organics, should have used activated carbon with that much wood and letting things go that far without a water change etc and/or boiled it good prior.

Tannins addition is not the same as adding CO2 to lower pH.
Fish respond to it much different.

Peat filtered water can induce breeding for a number of possible reasons, I am unaware of any CO2 injection related breeding cases(due to lowering pH with CO2).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Betowess said:


> I am going to guess it was the rapidity of the change which did the snowball in, rather than the change itself. But I have no idea what a snowball is, except when my son throws one at me.


It's a neat pleco.
Speed of pH change seems to not relevant in terms of CO2.
Think 80% water change on a small tank which being small, can be refilled in say 5 seconds?

Why don't my fish die when I take a pH of 6 tank water, remove 80%, then add tap at 7.9, and dump it in in 5 seconds? Ph hops up to 7.5, then back down quickly.

Why doesn't this kill my fish?

If....as many enjoy repeating/saying....pH is really the issue that is causing the problem?

Seems it must be something other than pH...........

I should have dead fish other wise..........and I've done these huge water changes for as long as I've used CO2.
Amano also does huge water changes weekly.
Always has too.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## the_noobinator

you know, i know someone that swears by lower than recommended pH. granted he doesn't have plants, but his fish do not die and he claims they have some of the brightest coloring he has ever seen. i agree, but i'm not about to take that risk.


----------



## Betowess

plantbrain said:


> It's a neat pleco.
> Speed of pH change seems to not relevant in terms of CO2.
> Think 80% water change on a small tank which being small, can be refilled in say 5 seconds?
> 
> Why don't my fish die when I take a pH of 6 tank water, remove 80%, then add tap at 7.9, and dump it in in 5 seconds? Ph hops up to 7.5, then back down quickly.
> 
> Why doesn't this kill my fish?
> 
> If....as many enjoy repeating/saying....pH is really the issue that is causing the problem?
> 
> Seems it must be something other than pH...........
> 
> I should have dead fish other wise..........and I've done these huge water changes for as long as I've used CO2.
> Amano also does huge water changes weekly.
> Always has too.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Maybe so Tom, but on water changes I use to add pH 5.2 out of the tap here at home (before I ever tested the tap's pH) and the tank was probably near nuetral or just below it (~6.8)... that is where it would go after a week or so off gasing in a non CO2 tank. My fish use to go crazy at 30%-40% water change time and I suspect it was my near RO well water with super low KH and GH as well as the acidic pH. So I now believe its more humane to have the water pretty close to the same parms so as not to stress the fish. 

That said, I now believe these tropicals can easily handle a 6.0 or lower pH and 1-2 KH no problemo. But no point in shocking them with super different water at change time. Best to get it there gradually, IMO.


----------



## plantbrain

Fish go "crazy" or they got sick or died?
Big difference.
Going "crazy", I'm not sure what that means, my shrimp go all over the tank and run the walls when the O2 levels are very high, but that has nothing to do pH...........but you might say they go crazy near the end of the day when the O2 is very high.

Fish stress is not something that can be easily measured other than through LD 50's death, or behavioral studies. I'm not saying what you see is stress or high activity due to O2, CO2 rich water that indirectly produces lots of O2 after due to plant growth.

A low KH well water with a pH of 5.2 suggest very high CO2 levels.
How high? High CO2 might be causing the issue.

Osomotic shock with very low GH/KH cannot be ruled out either if you did not account for/add any of that after.

Dropping the pH rapidly has not shown any stress signs, and degassing the water and raising the pH up has not either. Simply shut off the CO2, have the gas tank run out etc. Or drive the CO2 out with a wet/dry filter, aeration etc.

The other issue: 
What do you think happens in well plants sections of lakes, rivers every day?
Plenty of fish live there.

pH variations can go from 6-10 in smaller ponds, to 8-10pH daily. Some softer waters tend to 6-8.5/9 or so. I have monitored several lakes that have aquatic weeds and these are typical for hard(8-10) and soft(6-8.5/9) water systems throughout a day/diurnal cycle.

Fish are well adapted to pH changes due to CO2 variations and aquatic plants.

They are not well adapted to rapid changes in KH/GH/salinity.

You need to be able to rule out these other issues, you have not done this with the observations you have.

To rule it out, try using solely CO2 and drive the CO2 out fast, and then add it back.

Water chanegs will help folks see the changes due to pH, or you can use the gas, but there are other assumptions with water changes that can be overlooked. 

But they are good basis to see if pH changes due to CO2 are bad or not.
Your CO2 from the tap might be even higher than the tank's CO2 ppm to start with.

Too much CO2 can kill fish, most here would agree with that assumption.
Given a choice, in a perfect world, same CO2 ppm , same GH/KH, temp etc would be ideal............but which of these issues is really significant enough for the aquarist to really fret over in terms of fish health?


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## SuRje1976

Longer term update. I really like these parameters I'm running:

KH = 15-20ppm (yes I'm measuring in ppm now ~1dKH)
GH = 60-90ppm (~3.5-5 dGH)
pH 5.8-6.0

I know some were initially concerned about the health of their Amano shrimp. Here's how mine are doing:











Plants look so healthy too!


----------



## SuRje1976

*I think I had a pH crash...*

Ok. So about a week ago, I *think* I had the "dreaded" pH crash. My pH was pretty steady at 5.8. The controller had been cycling the CO2 on and off as usual. I got home from work on Sunday (10/1) and was sitting in my living room reading and after an hour or so, it occurred to me that I had not heard the solenoid clicking on or off. I opened up the stand and freaked. The pH was readiing 5.2, and the CO2 was OFF! I recalibrated the probe, thinking there could be a problem, bit it was off by LESS than 0.1

I waited to post for a week so I could document how many deaths I had. Funny thing is, no one skipped a beat. Everyone was FINE! I did take the CO2 off the controller, because I think my CO2 will be more reliable with a steady, constant bubble rate, and my understanding is that the pH/CO2 relationship breaks down at 0KH. I definately stressed out my Rams tinkering with the bubble rate and timers, but now that I'm "locked in," everyone/thing seems as content as ever. My pH is reading between 4.8 and 5.1, depending on what time of day it is. Yea - I know. A little unnerving at first.

But at 6pm, the tank looks like a champagne glass.

Good stuff.


----------



## Betowess

SuRje1976 said:


> Ok. So about a week ago, I *think* I had the "dreaded" pH crash. My pH was pretty steady at 5.8...
> My pH is reading between 4.8 and 5.1, depending on what time of day it is. Yea - I know. A little unnerving at first.
> 
> But at 6pm, the tank looks like a champagne glass.
> 
> Good stuff.


Wow, its a brave new world. It seems a lot of the long held notions about the world being flat are being torn apart by globe trotting exporers... LOL 
Bottoms up to the champagne and pearls.:thumbsup:


----------



## IceH2O

I've been reading this thread and plan on following it closely.

I don't inject CO2 in my planted tank. But for some reason while all my other semi planted tanks have a pH of 6.8 my heavily planted tank has a pH of 6 or lower. My test only goes as low as 6.

Water out of my well before gas off is under the test limit also but after 24 hours of gas off read 6.8.
My KH according to tests is 1 or less, out of the tap and out of the tank. GH is around 1 or 2 until I dose then its around 5-7.

The only difference between the tanks is the heavier load of plants and I use Excel, dry ferts and Flourish in the heavily planted tank. The other tanks only get Flourish as most of the plants are root feeders. The planted tank also has a heavier bioload of fish.

Substrate is sand, 130 watts of CF over a 75 gallon tank.

Of course I was worried, why is my planted tanks Ph lower than the others? I'm guessing the KH being used up by the plants has lowered my pH. Is a low pH/KH not induced by CO2 injection a canidate for a crash?

The only other reason I can think of the pH lowering is the driftwood, though I don't see any tannis being released. If the driftwood is the culprit everything should return to the 6.8 level in a few months. Though the driftwood isn't that big. Its 2 pieces if you put side to side would only be 12 inches long and about 4 inches round.I can't imagine it changing the pH that much.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

If there were such a thing as a pH crash, I would have had one, whatever it is 

There are occasions when my fish start to stress, that tells me a little aeration/surface splash is in order, and all is well.
Nightly aeration/surface splash till morning on a daily basis keeps things in order, including surface scum/ which I do not have a problem with, I never see any.

My plants are most beautiful with the low KH and pH and no ill effects as of yet. a couple years now.

I do not use a probe, and never have, seems that one would have more control by simply plugging into the light timer, it works for me, only reason I say this, is seems there is more margin for error with a probe than without, because the probe is known to go array, unless you spend more time tinkering with that unneeded device. eh? comments? suggestions?

low KH and pH rocks yeah baby.... :biggrin:


----------



## SuRje1976

IceH2O said:


> Of course I was worried, why is my planted tanks Ph lower than the others? I'm guessing the KH being used up by the plants has lowered my pH. Is a low pH/KH not induced by CO2 injection a canidate for a crash?


Ok, I'm going to take a stab at this one. Planted tanks produce organic acids that react with your carbonate and bicarbonate. As a result of this, CO2 is produced. In a non CO2 tank, your plants can use that CO2. This will cause the carbonates to reequilibrate, producing more CO2. This reequilbration also reduces your KH even further. I'm guessing that is why your pH is lower.

More frequent water changes will remove more of these organic acids, AND replace some of the KH. Sounds good, BUT would you really want to do that? You'd be taking some of the CO2 producing compounds OUT of your tank. I might just dose a carbonate buffer in this case (non-CO2 injected tank) to ensure that the carbonate availability is not a limiting factor in the natural CO2 production for your plants. Even if your plants don't directly consume your KH, the system will - as I understand it. 

The "pH crash" can occur when the CO2 cocentration is higher than the bicarbonate concentration. I cannot imagine that this would be possible in a non-CO2 system.

If my understanding is off someone PLEASE correct me!


----------



## Hoppy

The equation for ppm of CO2 vs KH and pH is: ppm=3KH*10exp(7-pH)
That can be restated as: pH=7-log(ppm/3*KH)
If the ppm of CO2 is 100, and the KH is 0.5, then the pH is 5.2, which is not a crash. But, those are very extreme measurements. Even if the KH is 0.1 and the ppm is 100, the pH is only 4.5, which is low, but hardly a "crash". The only way to actually get a crash is if the KH is zero or no higher than about .01 degrees, which would still only drop the pH to 3.5. I doubt that one can get zero KH, but .01 might be possible. So, I doubt that people who believe they lost fish due to a pH crash actually did - they really lost fish due to suffocation from the high ppm of CO2.


----------



## fresh_lynny

I still do not believe in the "crash" theory, because even what appears to be zero KH is truly not. There are carbonates that we with our hobbyist testing cannot detect, so a zero kh is not likely. What appears to be a crash is just a lower pH due to the relationship Hoppy illustrated.

As for your thoughts, Craig, that is what I have transitioned into. I do have the pH controller only because I started off that way; however, my actual CO2 is set up on a timer instead of the controller, and the controller for me is merely a pH meter at this point. I run it a 3-4bps and have it turn off with the lights at night, and turn back on an hour before the lights come back on on the morning. I recently changed it to an hour before lights on, instead of when the lights come on because I noticed that pearling took a while to occur because of the lag in CO2 build during lights on, so I decided to give it a head start to get enough in the column to benefit the plants during the photoperiod. I have gotten Craig's plants before and they are enviably healthy.

Hoppy is correct IMO that the fish stress has nothing to do with pH "crash" bs, it has to do with too much CO2...less available O2 and/or watermovement, or any combination of said events.


----------



## jasonh

Wow this looks like a really compelling thing to try, but sadly I am limited by two factors at the moment: 1, I am stuck with DIY CO2 for some time to come, and 2, when I turn fill a glass from the tap, I might as well be filling it with pebbles. Ok it's not THAT hard, but it's pretty hard. 

Maybe one of these days...


----------



## IceH2O

Well I won't need to worry about CO2 outcompeting O2. I have an XP3 spraybar pointed slightly down. A Penguin 200 BioWheel that agitates the water really well and a powerhead with venturi valve that I could open up more to get more air bubbles going.

I've always read about the pH crash theory but my tanks been like this for 3 months now. I would assume with an upcoming crash you would see differences in nitrites readings. They use KH and are the most fragile of the bacteria in a tank, if I've read correctly.


----------



## fresh_lynny

Nice, ICe...thanks for sharing the pics.


----------



## Hoppy

CO2 and Oxygen don't compete for space when dissolving into water. For one thing, it takes very little Oxygen to saturate water, but it takes way beyond what will kill fish for CO2 to saturate water. So, we should never see our tank water anywhere near saturated with CO2, always leaving room for the oxygen, even if they did compete for room.


----------



## Brilliant

My tank with the lowest pH was not co2 injected but it did have the most amount of fish.

Low KH means fish wastes could "crash" your pH not co2. Ignoring that would be well...ignorant. I think the notion that co2 (in low KH) will crash your pH is dead wrong.

Overall softer water is more volatile, hence the fears.

Damn Betowess beat me to the world is flat joke.


----------



## fresh_lynny

lol great minds, Frank....


----------



## jaidexl

Hoppy said:


> CO2 and Oxygen don't compete for space when dissolving into water. For one thing, it takes very little Oxygen to saturate water, but it takes way beyond what will kill fish for CO2 to saturate water. So, we should never see our tank water anywhere near saturated with CO2, always leaving room for the oxygen, even if they did compete for room.


this is what i've heard. so, with DIY CO2 on a 30gl with two HOBs moving water (both on low setting), i'm thinking i need not worry about CO2 saturation... right??

or, since it is a DIY which cannot be turned off at night, might i need to worry? if i do, will a pressure release stink the heck out of my house at night? and should i stick with a single bottle unit rather than the dual i was in the process of building?

for the record, i have crazy low KH/GH and i'm going to see what happens if i stop buffering. i suspect my fish will be happier than they have been while dealing with the fluctuations i've created trying to maintain alkalinity for their 'safety'.


----------



## plantbrain

Plants do not produce organic acids to reduce HCO3 to CO2 and OH(this occurs on the cell surface of some species/algae, snails, etc), they do use H+ ATPases to add H+'s to the external environment very close to the leaves on the abaxial(bottom side), this is referred to as indirect bicarbonate usage.

Hydrilla is an example.
Most algae do this on their cell surface if they are CO2 limited(rare in our tanks).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Betowess

jaidexl said:


> this is what i've heard. so, with DIY CO2 on a 30gl with two HOBs moving water (both on low setting), i'm thinking i need not worry about CO2 saturation... right??
> 
> or, since it is a DIY which cannot be turned off at night, might i need to worry? if i do, will a pressure release stink the heck out of my house at night? and should i stick with a single bottle unit rather than the dual i was in the process of building?
> 
> for the record, i have crazy low KH/GH and i'm going to see what happens if i stop buffering. i suspect my fish will be happier than they have been while dealing with the fluctuations i've created trying to maintain alkalinity for their 'safety'.


Not sure on the two bottles, but your fish will be fine with the crazy low KH and pH. But one needs to dose GH (epsom salts and calcium chloride). You can get the ca (which is a hydroponic nutrient) from Greg Watson at the PMDD store. (Poor Man's Daily Dose). Or get the Tom Barr's GH booster there too. Important for the fish and the plants to generally keep it near 5dGH, I believe. GregWatson.com


----------



## jaidexl

OK, thanks for the tip. I'm using Electro-Right for now, but will definitely look into that. Dosing for GH is a new thing since i've recently switched to bottled RO. My tapwater was 3dKH and about 7dGH, but now has 2ppm ammonia, 10+ppm nitrate, and 4ppm nitrite. :/


----------



## Betowess

jaidexl said:


> OK, thanks for the tip. I'm using Electro-Right for now, but will definitely look into that. Dosing for GH is a new thing since i've recently switched to bottled RO. My tapwater was 3dKH and about 7dGH, but now has 2ppm ammonia, 10+ppm nitrate, and 4ppm nitrite. :/



I don't know much about RO, except my tap water was virtually RO before we added an acid nuetralizer in our well house (copper pipes started leaking). I would guess it would have a GH component in this Electro-Right. Obviously I don't know, but worth checking out.


----------



## jaidexl

I didn't think much about it when i grabbed it. I was in a rush to replace water and nitrites in the tank.

Overall, i'd go with straight powder or generic chem doses before some fancy product from the lfs. At the time, i was only aware of RO Right and Electro-Right, but now that i know epsom salts and calcium chloride are sufficient, i think i'll go that rout in the future.


----------



## fresh_lynny

jaidexl said:


> OK, thanks for the tip. I'm using Electro-Right for now, but will definitely look into that. Dosing for GH is a new thing since i've recently switched to bottled RO. My tapwater was 3dKH and about 7dGH, but now has 2ppm ammonia, 10+ppm nitrate, and 4ppm nitrite. :/


Your tap seems perfect ...why even deal with RO and booster and all of that stuff?
Just use your tap water~ your KH and GH are fine


----------



## plantbrain

jaidexl said:


> OK, thanks for the tip. I'm using Electro-Right for now, but will definitely look into that. Dosing for GH is a new thing since i've recently switched to bottled RO. My tapwater was 3dKH and about 7dGH, but now has 2ppm ammonia, 10+ppm nitrate, and 4ppm nitrite. :/


Run a zeolite large filter for you, and the entire house.
What are using for tap? Sewer water?
Sounds like it's contaminated if those values are accurate.

I am serious about getting a house filter etc, those are not good reading ansd the tap needs chemical filtration to be potable.
Otherwise the GH/KH is perfect.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

agreed...it looks like great GH and KH but your other numbers are indicative of fecal contamination.....mmmmmm


----------



## jaidexl

I know, we're not very happy about it. I've contacted the EPA and am in the process of finding the right person at the water treatment plant. Not such a surprise that they keep passing the ball. The AP freshwater master test kit was used for the results and was also used for the near RO results of the bottled water.

We've been shopping for an RO/DI unit, until then we're drinking bottled water and showering in poo.  

I held up the 0.5ppm nitrite result of the tank water next to the dark purple 4ppm from the tap and asked my g/f which one she'd rather drink. that's when she decided an RO/DI unit isn't such a bad idea.


----------



## Betowess

jaidexl said:


> I held up the 0.5ppm nitrite result of the tank water next to the dark purple 4ppm from the tap and asked my g/f which one she'd rather drink. that's when she decided an RO/DI unit isn't such a bad idea.


:eek5: What a deal. But it sounds like you made her "a deal she couldn't refuse". LOL What part of Florida? 

I have some gram weights for target GH that one of our members sent me (Hypansistrus)... meaning amounts in gram weight of Epsom salts and Calcium Chloride to acheive 5 dGH in 50 gallons of water. I don't mix the the mg and ca at the same time to avoid ending up with a harder to dissolve precipitate of calcium sulfate. I mix on alternate days or am and pm. PM me if you want the info.

Goodluck, BTW.


----------



## fresh_lynny

jaidexl said:


> I know, we're not very happy about it. I've contacted the EPA and am in the process of finding the right person at the water treatment plant. Not such a surprise that they keep passing the ball. The AP freshwater master test kit was used for the results and was also used for the near RO results of the bottled water.
> 
> We've been shopping for an RO/DI unit, until then we're drinking bottled water and showering in poo.
> 
> I held up the 0.5ppm nitrite result of the tank water next to the dark purple 4ppm from the tap and asked my g/f which one she'd rather drink. that's when she decided an RO/DI unit isn't such a bad idea.


I drank bottled water and showered in poo for 2 years in Africa. It isn't all it is cracked up to be, so don't believe the hype!
Ha....anyway, stay on your water peeps. That is unacceptable in this country. That is what we pay ridiculous taxes for!


----------



## captured!byrobots

I would like to add to this thread if I may....

I have very soft water as well.
In the tank it stays at 
KH 0
PH under 6 (What testers do you use which reads under 6?)

I use soilmaster charcoal substrate,
and it seemed to soften the water a bit as well....

I used to add baking soda for KH, but I would need to do it very often to keep the kh at a level where everybody told me I needed it.
I am pretty lazy, so one day I just stopped.
After reading these threads I now know why nothing negative happened.
Big myths out there, eh....


So far,
I've been running an air stone at night,
and doing pressurized co2 24/7, with no casualties,
and everyone has been acting normally.
Plant growth was going great til I ran out of nitrate.

Now I'm dosing, and couldn't be happier.

Thanks Planted Tank Mythbusters!
LOVE JBOT


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Isn't this how myths get started? when you say "I believe" does that mean you know this for a fact or just a hunch/guess or presumtion? :biggrin:

I have grown many plants in straight RO/DI without ever adding any of that or finding a "need" to do so.
Proper use of lights, ferts, C02 & aeration you can grow anything without baking soda, epsom salts or cc.



Betowess said:


> But one needs to dose GH (epsom salts and calcium chloride). Important for the fish and the plants to generally keep it near 5dGH, I believe.


My wife is from St. Augustine, her folks are on well water, that stuff is horridly putrid, loaded with iron and sulfer, if your water is anything like that I feel for you.
An RO/DI unit would be a wise investment, you will probably have to change the filters every 2 or 3 months if in fact it is that bad.
The first time I went there years ago, we went to the beach, upon returning, I showered and felt even more nasty than before the shower...

I won't stay there because of that, we rent a condo when we go now.


----------



## fresh_lynny

JBOt
SO true! I got into it bigtime on another site about this. The condescending comments for me even suggesting to stop the baking soda and crushed coral crapola was incredible. "You had better be careful what you go out and tell people newby....lol" Geeeesh
I have similar water to you and I have never added anything but light CO2 and ferts. I also run airstone at night or I shut off CO2 with lights and back on an hour before lights come back on. Thats's it.


----------



## Betowess

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Isn't this how myths get started? when you say "I believe" does that mean you know this for a fact or just a hunch/guess or presumtion? :biggrin:
> 
> I have grown many plants in straight RO/DI without ever adding any of that or finding a "need" to do so.
> Proper use of lights, ferts, C02 & aeration you can grow anything without baking soda, epsom salts or cc.


Well Craig, I think and "I believe" that a consensus has emerged that it is best for the fish and plants to keep a minimum of 3-4 GH and some say more like 5-6 dGH. I'm just spreading the myth/gospel here. If I have sinned, let me know.:eek5: :biggrin:


----------



## feiz

Hi there, I'm new here, just say hi and wanna say something abt the CO2 chart by Chuck's Measuring CO2 levels in a Planted Tank

Frankly speaking, I'm one of Tom's advocates, I learn him from Taiwan's Paludarium who introduced Tom's EI to me, I know I'm a bit late to know EI but I think EI is quite right and I believe in it. So I registered as a member of Tom's forum, trace his steps and found this site.... just want to learn from him more about fertilization and how algae glows.



plantbrain said:


> I think after some time you get a feel for things and no longer need to test for most things, the plants become your "test kit".


I believe in it too... If I could acquire more experience, I would be able to test it with plants .. actually I started planting in the beginning of this year, so give me some time 

Anyway, things should have reasonable explanations .... so talking a bit more about theory...



daveonbass said:


> On the CO2 issue...I have found that the chart is grossly inadequat in my particular tank. I now have a PH of 6.15...that is tripple checked with two pinpoint PH monitors and one regular water test kit. And a KH of 10 to 12 degrees. So according to the chart...I have 238ppm of dissolved CO2. My fish should be dead...but they are not...and they are quite happy.


As co2 is the only source of acid in the equation, the equation should not be applied to the tank directly.
However, you may make use of the chart indirectly.

In daveonbass's case, I'd measure the PH before lighting on, say 6.25, then light on and inject CO2, take the PH reading of the measurement point, say 6.15
(as the KH is relatively high, say 10, there must be a quite stable PH even a large amount of CO2 injected, so, close figures assumed)

Subtract the CO2 levels as
212.384ppm (obtained from the table by ph6.15) - 168.702ppm(by ph6.25) +3ppm(average co2 level before lighting on)
=46.7ppm

I know the CO2 level after aeration at 25 degree is around 0.42ppm
but in practical, the co2 level in aquarium before lighting on can be 1-5 ppm
so I take the mean value 3ppm.

However, whatever the average co2 level is, it should only affect the accuracy at low co2 level only

any comment?


----------



## feiz

SuRje1976 said:


> ....
> KH = 15-20ppm (yes I'm measuring in ppm now ~1dKH)
> GH = 60-90ppm (~3.5-5 dGH)
> pH 5.8-6.0
> .....


Hello SuRje1976,

I have to indicate that every 10ppm means 1dKH in Planted Tank where the measurement of KH is targeted to bicarbonate.
I found the definition in Chinese website, and another Chinese forum, but cannot find it in any English site, sorry.

Anyway, I noted that my test kit(nutrafin) also indicates every 10ppm KH level by one drop of reagent. while the GH measurement indicates every 20ppm by one drop. Where every drop denotes (may be implication, no paragraphs in the manual clearly stating that...)one degree of corresponding hardness. Perhaps, this could be a hint to the above KH definition.

I'm still in doubt on the measurement of CO3, not very sure how the dH implies but CO3 level should be low in planted tank, right? 
(CO3 is insoluble in water but interacts with co2, when co3 dissolves, it changes back to bicarbonate. Isn't it meaningless to measure co3 in planted tank?)


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## Brilliant

Ive got it!!

Did you know that 6.0 pH is the proverbial end of the world? Where all fish will fall off and die...

LMAO this is something Ive been thinking about because Ive been there myself. Being a person that owns one of these pH test kits even I was a bit scared when my pH was reading yellow...or 6.0...I mean thats the end of the world as far as I knew it....for petes sake could it have been even lower then 6.0!?!?!?!?! Holy COW!!! Why doesnt this test kit read that low? There must be something WRONG!!! LMAO!!!

Sorry this is just an itch ive meant to scratch.


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## plantbrain

Some think so. I've challanged that assumption agressively.
I've yet to see anyone refute it experimentally, with other data or research.
Some want to get tangled into semantic debates, even C. Darwin and I. Newton hated such spin meisters and avoided public debate.

I'm not sure why so many folks put so much faith is assumptions in the hobby.

I've done more questioning of these assumptions than most. It's ruffled many feathers:icon_twis Ah, they will get over it.

But more to the point here in the broader sense, I'm not sure why more folks do not and have not questioned such things and tried to see if these hypotheses where valid or not.

I know many have the innate curiousity within.

I've suggested to folks to try it and see for yourself, then you'll know and be able to form an opinion/conclusion about it.

Folks can add 2ppm PO4 and see that it does not induce algae. Fairly straight forward thing. No science background needed.
I suggest folks do this all the time.

We observe, we speculate, then form a hypothese, then experiement, then repeat and see if it's valid or not. Just assuming and speculating alone is very bad.

That adds nothing worthwhile to this hobby.

Think about that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain

jaidexl,

Tell them you have infant newborn and you are worried about health effects.
If they do not respond promptly, call them back and tell thenm you intend to retain a lawyer and file a class action alwsuits on behalf of the community due to adverse health risk.

But.........first.........make sure that these readings are actually correct.

Basing the entire issue here on an AP test kit is dubious at best, I'd go out and get a nice test kit and measuring it frequently(take a sampling of the daily changes and then weekly variation, werite these down and log them detailing the test method and type of test kit etc).
NH4/NH3, NO2, and NO3.

Read the federal Clean Water Act:

Environmental Protection Agency - Clean Water Act

Then decide what your rights are and how you want to deal with things.
There might be something else going on.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Brilliant

I am not sure either. 
I think fear of the unknown is something that keeps you inline as a fishkeeper. 
Having the right testing equipment is crucial to exploring this particular unknown.


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## emhigginson

*I've been fighting this and not adding CO2*

If this works it would be really nice as my tank naturally starts its morning rise at a ph of 6.3. It never reaches 6.8 and it has had me freeking out since it used to sit at 7-7.4 (moved into a different neighborhood with a different water source) I was just going to try adding some crushed coral to my canaster to try and get it back up. I have not been adding as much co2 hoping to not fry my Discus and shrimp and my plants look really weak! 

Would someone who has been doing this for a while, please advise me as to weather or not I should just set my ph controler at the natural level of 6.3. That way it will bubble continously throughout the whole day. I have my spray bar just under the surface so it just disrupts it a little. :help:


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## SuRje1976

emhigginson said:


> Would someone who has been doing this for a while, please advise me as to weather or not I should just set my ph controler at the natural level of 6.3. That way it will bubble continously throughout the whole day


How are your fish in the morning? If they're fine, I'd consider that a starting point. I'd move it lower very slowly and watch the fish.


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## Betowess

SuRje1976 said:


> How are your fish in the morning? If they're fine, I'd consider that a starting point. I'd move it lower very slowly and watch the fish.


Be careful as Serg suggested. The other night I forgot to lower my CO2 and I also slowed down the spraybar too much, during a party. I had all my Rainbows gasping at the surface in the morning. I've never pulled such a stupid move in a long time. The tank was pearling like mad that day and the fish had been fairly sluggish for almost a week. If the fish are sluggish, you probably are approaching too much CO2. I did three 12% water changes back to back, threw in an airstone and the pH came back up nicely. And all is well, except I killed one healthy female Boesmani. I've sinced moved the CO2 solenoid back onto the light's timer as well - so the gas is off at night as I've always done it in the past, unless I was using a pH controler. And my fish are active again.

There is more to the story involving a new 2 way manifold and a dupla diffuser and traditional reactor. But they have no direct bearing except as a precurser to a stupid move. This mechanical setup was waiting for a second reactor ... the differential pressure between a reactor and a diffuser was causing strange behavior in the CO2 flow, hense I was always backing up and down the low pressure regulator each day til got around to building a second reactor for this setup.

For the record, my pH was around 5.8 that night and it was at 5.5 in the morning. The pH didn't hurt the fish. But too much CO2 was a killer. So just watch the fish. If active, you are OK. And I would recommend doing the CO2 rise when you can be around to monitor


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## Brilliant

I dont think this is too much co2 I think it is lack of o2.


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## Betowess

Brilliant said:


> I dont think this is too much co2 I think it is lack of o2.


Maybe, but the tank was chock full of O2 while lights were on. Champagne style. I'm thinking leaving the CO2 24/7 with slowed down spraybar gave them a CO2 OD.


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## Brilliant

Cool I was going to ask you what the pH fluctuation was. 

I would think if someone is using a "false pH" you are just looking for a larger pH shift. The water I use is very soft and acidic. It already has a low standing pH. If I add co2 it doesnt seem to go much lower. Much like yours from 5.8 to 5.5. I have to get myself a pH monitor.


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## plantbrain

I've been using pure O2 to add to tanks to amplify the CO2 without so much impact on fish for several months.

It works.
Especially on larger fish, smaller ones are not as affected.
Note: this is not the same as aeration (at night etc), this is added 24/7 to maintain the O2 levels at 8-11ppm.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Betowess

plantbrain said:


> I've been using pure O2 to add to tanks to amplify the CO2 without so much impact on fish for several months.
> 
> It works.
> Especially on larger fish, smaller ones are not as affected.
> Note: this is not the same as aeration (at night etc), this is added 24/7 to maintain the O2 levels at 8-11ppm.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Isn't pure O2 a risk of fire/explosion?


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## happi

this is a very old thread but it raised some questions which i would like to ask.

so low KH effect the co2 from being dissolved and high kh co2 dissolved better, i thought lot of people here have problem growing plants in high KH and people want to keep the KH low as possible to help the plant growth. even i could not grow most of the plants under high KH. if co2 does not dissolved better in low KH then how come i have seen people with great looking tanks in low KH?

after reading this thread i decided not to add any baking soda and my KH is extremely low, API test kit reads 0. now lets see how this will effect the plants and the fish, does this also really mean that my plants wont take any co2 because co2 doesn't dissolve in low KH?

looking forward for reply from experts


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## plantbrain

Betowess said:


> Isn't pure O2 a risk of fire/explosion?


If you add fuel, eg, acetylene etc, propane, etc............

Old folks with the pure O2 going into their noses do not "combust into flames.


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> this is a very old thread but it raised some questions which i would like to ask.
> 
> so low KH effect the co2 from being dissolved and high kh co2 dissolved better, i thought lot of people here have problem growing plants in high KH and people want to keep the KH low as possible to help the plant growth. even i could not grow most of the plants under high KH. if co2 does not dissolved better in low KH then how come i have seen people with great looking tanks in low KH?
> 
> after reading this thread i decided not to add any baking soda and my KH is extremely low, API test kit reads 0. now lets see how this will effect the plants and the fish, does this also really mean that my plants wont take any co2 because co2 doesn't dissolve in low KH?
> 
> looking forward for reply from experts


For our purposes this does not make difference. Make a CO2 reactor tube another 3-4" longer. Turn the valve a 1/8th turn more etc, no one I know of has ever show the quantitative difference between say 1 and 10 degrees of KH and CO2 use.

Not one person.

Ever.

Now if someone thinks they can show this "difference" I'm all ears. 

There are MANY, more examples with lower KH tanks being highly successful. High KH water has some issues for some plant species, but all plants grow extremely well in low KH waters, I do not know of any that do not.

So unless it's for the fish, or to measure something...........it's a non starter.
Leave the KH be.


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## happi

plantbrain said:


> For our purposes this does not make difference. Make a CO2 reactor tube another 3-4" longer. Turn the valve a 1/8th turn more etc, no one I know of has ever show the quantitative difference between say 1 and 10 degrees of KH and CO2 use.
> 
> Not one person.
> 
> Ever.
> 
> Now if someone thinks they can show this "difference" I'm all ears.
> 
> There are MANY, more examples with lower KH tanks being highly successful. High KH water has some issues for some plant species, but all plants grow extremely well in low KH waters, I do not know of any that do not.
> 
> So unless it's for the fish, or to measure something...........it's a non starter.
> Leave the KH be.



Tom, i was looking at this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/1368-co2-levels-zero-kh.html

and you have different answer about the KH there, were you just saying it or was it based on the fact?



plantbrain; said:


> Well no, you will not be able to determine at a KH of 0. pH test probes will also not work on pure water. You have some salts but no HCO3.
> 
> HCO3/CO2 is an acid base buffered system. Without the base, there's no pH/KH relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> plantbrain; said:
> 
> 
> 
> The system will crash, it might not have done this yet for you, but you'll get burned at some point. And have dead fish.
> 
> 
> 
> My question to you is this: why do use RO water with no KH added back?
> Bring it up to 2 at least.
> 
> Do this for your fish and for your plants. It will help and cause no issues with any fish or plants you mention or anyone's mentioned, even wild Rio ***** Discus, Altums etc do fine at a KH of 3.
> 
> Plants will use KH if there is not enough CO2 also. You may be hitting the right amount of CO2 for now, but that may not last long. If the plants do not have enough CO2 at some point, then the pH wioll rise dramatically since there's no base to balance it. Our blood has the same acid base system and is why we exhale CO2 as we oxidize the sugars we eat for energy.
> 
> Think about the acid base system, if you add a lot of acid and there's no base to balance it, then you can have very large pH fluctations. Potentially lethal to fish also.
> 
> Add some baking soda and raise the KH to 2-3 range, then add enough CO2 to get about 6.3-6.5 range.
> 
> All the fish will and can breed in this range.
> Food and feeding will help the most in general with most breeding issues.
> 
> This will take care opf both fish and plants.
> In general, taking care of the plants takes good care of the fish, the rest is mainly feeding.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr
Click to expand...


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> Tom, i was looking at this thread: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/1368-co2-levels-zero-kh.html
> 
> and you have different answer about the KH there, were you just saying it or was it based on the fact?


I have no idea what I said on APC, as I have never gone there since being banned. This has been for several years now, maybe 4-5.

The issue is whether or not it applies to the planted hobbyists using CO2.

I'd say it does not, and is a fear based claim........I've not found any practical issues with low KH..........and we are not concerned about saving CO2 really either.........
I'd not worry about it in terms of plants, fish.....perhaps........so 1 degree is fine.

But who uses KH tap water that's lower than 1 degree? Not many.


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## Hoppy

That thread on APC is more than 7 years old! I suspect all of us have managed to learn more about the hobby in 7 years. I would never rely on planted tank advice that is 7 years old. Sometimes even 2 year old advice is obsolete.


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## Aganor

Well now, i learned a lot with this topic!

But now i must ask the opposite of the topic,

High kH is bad for plants and fish?

I.ve read that kH doesnt matter for fish, or to forget about kH as it inst important to measure, but if mine is at 8, doesnt it affect fish on some way?

My kH out of tap is 8, my pH is 8, my gH is 1-2 at max, maybe 3,

With my 10g tank of my sig, i now get a kH of 2, mostly due to the driftwood and AS, now i know this value is really good, but i have a question:

- doesnt CO2 injection binds the co2 with the kH, lowering it, and after turning off CO2, the kH returns to the previous value?

I know CO2 pH drop wont harm anything, its not the question here as it may sound, but rather the fact that kH drops or not with co2 injection?

the water company adds NaCL0 as a desinfectant, im afraid the Na will do harm to fauna and flora, am i right to be concerned?
The smell of chlorine is pretty intense when i rest the water, and when the water drops dry out they leave a white coat, tastes salty, is that a reason to believe my water has a high amount of sodium?

Before adding the tap to my tanks, i use prime, but my thinking is that CLO breaks free, but Na still is present, how to see if thats detrimental to fish and plant health?


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## plantbrain

High KH is detrimental to a number of species, but low KH is not to any species I've tried including many supposed hardwater plants.

Some species of Rotala, maybe Erios and a few others do not appear to enjoy the higher KH's, gH does not seem to matter, as logn as the Mg and Ca needs are met, so that can be 1 degree to 25 degrees.


Most all species do well at 3-4 KH or less.

I suppose a few folks might be able to eek out some decent growth at higher KH's I'm sure for some species. But it seems to become progressively harder as the KH climbs.

Fish and shrimp have their own paticulars about TDS mostly I'd say. 
CO2 also.

Adding CO2 does nothing to the KH. If it did, no one would use RO water, they'd just use CO2 gas to remove KH

Obviously this does NOT happen and it's a classic misunderstanding about alkalinity and CO2. A TINY bit combines, but it's a ratio of 400:1. So only 0.25% or basically NONE of the KH is changed when you add CO2. 

If you add more CO2, you add more CO2, that's pretty much all you need to remember. It does not change, 99.75% of it stays as dissolved CO2.


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## Aganor

Then the readings i have from 8 to 3 DkH are definitive,
Im happy about it then, by the end of the week i had a drop to 2 DkH 

When high kH is stated, what is the value? 12+, or is 8 kH high?


So if CO2 and kH are not that united, how is the process of pH lowering happening then? 
isnt it the conection of HCO3 with CO2 that forms H2O and CO2 in the end? thus releasing the H+ binded to the CO2 and lowering pH?


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## Melika

Hoppy said:


> That thread on APC is more than 7 years old! I suspect all of us have managed to learn more about the hobby in 7 years. I would never rely on planted tank advice that is 7 years old. Sometimes even 2 year old advice is obsolete.


For this reason I am looking for any updates on this subject. I was testing my well water to see if I could use it for my water changes- it tests at 5.8-6pH, very little GH and un-measurable (too low for my test) KH. It boggles my mind to find a soft-water well in Florida, but that's another topic entirely. My tap water is practically rock.

From what I have gleaned from this wonderful topic, is that it would be fine. I just wonder if anyone has further experiences to add- *especially with shrimp?*

Thank you (plural) for the time all of you invested years ago into this subject! I appreciate being able to look back and find something like this- there hasn't been any other info on this that I could find (at least nothing so comprehensive).

I'm willing to assume I would be alright to try, unless someone can explain to me why not?


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