# Canister Filter in basement?



## neilfishguy (Dec 16, 2007)

umm prop up the filter???


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## outcast (Jul 4, 2007)

i agree with mr fish guy. Except just saying prop it up, i suggest installing some cheap cabinets. This way you wont feel bad hacking them up and drilling hole in it. Simple electrical can bring a GFI outlet right into the cabinetry to give your power. especially if theres an outlet right under the location. Simply remove the shelf in the cabinet to give you the extra room, if you are worried about weight, i suggest installing some angle brackets under the cabinet for extra support, looks like ass, but better safe than sorry.


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## gsd78 (Jan 13, 2004)

You could run a closed loop with either Pentair Lifegard modules or Ocean Clear canisters. This way you'd be able to select a pump based on your setup. Here's links to them at Drs Foster & Smith:

Pentair Lifegard

Ocean Clear


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## crazie.eddie (May 31, 2004)

You can also use a sump pump and use a strong pump to pump it up through the basement.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

Canister filters are closed loops. The pressure on the intake is the same as on the outlet, so _static _head has no meaning for a canister filter, at least the way you guys are thinking. I believe the reason canister filters have head ratings is because at high head the intake, canister, and outlet are all at very high pressure. This causes leaks. It doesn't cause reductions in flow.

The pumps inside canister filters do have head ratings though. That's an indication of how much reduction in flow you'll expect when you account for the _dynamic_ head caused by filter media, hoses, inline accessories, etc.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Go with Ocean Clean Pressurized system and a large external pump..


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## questor (Jan 7, 2008)

If it's a canister filter, with a suction line out of the tank directly to the filter, isn't the "head" the filter sees just the little difference between the water level at the tank surface and the top of the rim?

In other words, once the siphon is started, the water would go down to the basement into the canister, and fill up the return line till it levels off at the surface level of the tank. 
The pump then onl has to push it another inch or two over the rim. That inch or two is the "head" the pump sees.

If it had to pump water up from a basement sump, then it would see the full 20' head.

A canister filter should be ok, shouldn't it? Of course I guess there would be some flow resistance from the longer tubing.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

No. The head is the distance from the filter motor to the return in the tank.


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

fshfanatic said:


> No. The head is the distance from the filter motor to the return in the tank.


We need to be clear on whether we're talking about the absolute pressure inside the canister or the pressure differential across the motor. You're talking about absolute pressure. However, the height of a canister filter has _nothing_ to do with the pressure differential across the motor. Flow will _not_ be reduced by having a canister filter a greater distance below the tank.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

swylie said:


> Flow will _not_ be reduced by having a canister filter a greater distance below the tank.


Interesting thought.. Hagen and Eheim both disagree with you.. If I didnt have to be up at 5am for work I would search for the links


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## cleekdafish (Jun 13, 2007)

go with a sump and a good eheim pump if i were u


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## swylie (May 10, 2007)

fshfanatic said:


> Interesting thought.. Hagen and Eheim both disagree with you.. If I didnt have to be up at 5am for work I would search for the links


Heh. Read more closely. :icon_roll


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Do you have a link? I cant find them.


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## questor (Jan 7, 2008)

I was curious enough to take a look about this subject.
I was thinking of doing the same thing, hide the equipment in the basement (canister filter, co2 bottle) and plumb up through the floor.

Here is an interesting link:
http://www.aquariumpros.com/articles/headpress.shtml

ANd a quote in regards to canister filters:


> First, determine the lift or height the pump will need to move water. If the pump draws water from a reservoir below the aquarium, measure (in feet) from the pump to the point water returns to the tank. This will be your initial head pressure in feet.
> 
> If the pump draws water from and returns water to the aquarium through a filter, divide this figure in half as the pump is getting assistance from gravity on the intake side.


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## scada57 (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the replies!

I was originally going for a sump, but the guys at the LFS pointed out that would allow CO2 to outgas - their view was that a closed loop canister was the only way to go.

They did mention that the reason they were recommending the ADA filter (apart from the fact they had it on the shelf...) was because they'd trust the seals...

The comments about the fact it's a closed loop, so you don't need to consider the pump head in terms of pumping 'power' make sense, but I'm hoping someone out who's done this will comment!

-Steve


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

scada57 said:


> Thanks for all the replies!
> 
> I was originally going for a sump, but the guys at the LFS pointed out that would allow CO2 to outgas - their view was that a closed loop canister was the only way to go.


Steve, FWIW, there are several people here with large tanks running sumps, and CO2. 
If you can cover the sump, and reduce splashing it shouldn't be too bad.


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## Grubs (Jun 2, 2007)

The typical "head height" pump specification is meaningless for canisters.

It doesnt matter if the canister is 10 inches or 10 feet below the tank the head the pump sees is the same. The canister filter loop is closed - its just a long pipe full of water with a pump in the middle circulating water around the loop. The water in the pipe on the inlet side weighs the same as the water in the pipe on the outlet side so no matter how high or low you place the canister the pump is still just pushing the water around the loop the same. The longer pipe will add flow resistance by the walls of the pipe but it certainly does not add "head pressure" when the pump is operating.

This doesn't mean that you have nothing to be concerned about. When the pump is *off* the water will try to syphon down to the lowest point through both hoses. Canisters are sealed with an o-ring to prevent leaks but the bigger the height differential between the tank water surfance and the canister, the bigger the pressure at the bottom of the loop (ie inside the canister). I doubt many canisters are tested operating 10feet below the tank water surface. You don't want hoses popping off when the power fails. You'd want a fairly industrial setup with good hose clamps on every fitting.

Now for a sump - there *is* a lot of head pressure because the water level height on the inlet is just the 10-12" of water in the sump whereas the outlet is 10 feet up in the tank. You'll need a *mighty* pump and it will be innefficient compared to the requirements of a closed loop (ie canister).

e.g. a 1000 l/h canister typically uses 25W of electricity.

For a sump - to get 1000 l/h at a 10ft head (mixing metric and imperial!) you'll likely need a 5000-6000 l/h rated pump (ratings are at zero head) that is likely to use 150W+.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

scada57 said:


> I was originally going for a sump, but the guys at the LFS pointed out that would allow CO2 to outgas - their view was that a closed loop canister was the only way to go.
> 
> They did mention that the reason they were recommending the ADA filter (apart from the fact they had it on the shelf...) was because they'd trust the seals...
> 
> The comments about the fact it's a closed loop, so you don't need to consider the pump head in terms of pumping 'power' make sense, but I'm hoping someone out who's done this will comment!


Steve:

Head can be broken into static (fight against gravity) and dynamic (resistance to flow). In both cases, the placement of the can is marginal. The much bigger problem is the can leaking or priming as you have alluded to. 

I would like to challenge the notion that a big discus tank requires a filter too big to fit under the stand. Take a glance at Steve's (scolley) tank where he manages to get a small water treatment facility under an 180. You will save time (& money) with an off the shelf product, hassle of custom instalation, and more importantly, the visual impact of the tank to the S.O. is reduced. 

If you do have a special idea (tank on a table, not stand) please attach sketches.


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## kornphlake (Dec 4, 2007)

People all seem to have their own idea of head pressure no matter what physics books say. I've given up arguing with people because there's too much anecdotal and otherwise false information out there that contradicts what really happens. Go play with a piece of clear air line and a bucket of water sitting on a table until you understand how siphons and pressure work. If I tried to explain it someone who doesn't understand and has never done any experimentation would come along and say I'm wrong. The beauty of the internet is that everybody has a PHD rather they've ever been in a classroom or not.


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