# New to High Tech Woes



## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

A couple observations. You're pretty lightly planted. Your anubias wont require so much light, and is a slow grower. Take out the anubias and thats almost half of your plants. Second, I think it may be worth reducing your photo period. Some also advocate for a break in the lighting period. The theory behind that is that plants can get ramped up for photosynthesis faster than algae. The break in light in between supposedly doesnt allow the algae to come up to speed. I'm not certain if that is stil the current belief or if this has been supported with data but it doesnt hurt either. So perhaps 3 hours, a break, then another 3 hours? If I were you id go 5 hours as it seems you may get light from windows? You have ferts and c02, and if you're certain your c02 is at the right concentrations, then my guess it's your light. Another thing now that i think of it, how is that eco complete? Has it broken down at all...ive always used ADA but that breaks down after several years.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Too much light / you need way more plants. High tech setup on low tech plants = algae city. Look at other successful high-tech setups. They are packed with fast-growing stem plants.

Your tank won't just 'be OK' while you wait to do your research and pack it with high-light plants.


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

jasa73 said:


> A couple observations. You're pretty lightly planted. Your anubias wont require so much light, and is a slow grower. Take out the anubias and thats almost half of your plants. Second, I think it may be worth reducing your photo period. Some also advocate for a break in the lighting period. The theory behind that is that plants can get ramped up for photosynthesis faster than algae. The break in light in between supposedly doesnt allow the algae to come up to speed. I'm not certain if that is stil the current belief or if this has been supported with data but it doesnt hurt either. So perhaps 3 hours, a break, then another 3 hours? If I were you id go 5 hours as it seems you may get light from windows? You have ferts and c02, and if you're certain your c02 is at the right concentrations, then my guess it's your light. Another thing now that i think of it, how is that eco complete? Has it broken down at all...ive always used ADA but that breaks down after several years.


Thanks,

I'll reduce the photo period and split it up a bit. I don't have 2 timers that allow multiple on/off periods, so I'll have to keep my CO2 on during the gap until I can get another timer. I'll try 6 hours for now, the window is north-facing and never gets hit directly with sun. 

Regarding the substrate, I'm not sure what you mean by 'breaks down'? Some of the pieces have turned white/light in color, but not too many. I don't have any experience with other substrate, other than the blue stuff I had when I first got my tank way back when 

Bump:


klibs said:


> Too much light / you need way more plants. High tech setup on low tech plants = algae city. Look at other successful high-tech setups. They are packed with fast-growing stem plants.
> 
> Your tank won't just 'be OK' while you wait to do your research and pack it with high-light plants.


Thanks, I thought my lack of plants were a problem. The awesome high-tech tanks I've seen on this forum always looked very well-established to me. When you buy plants in the store, they're not 20" high and crazy bushy! My (clearly incorrect) thought process was:

Buy some plants
Watch them grow like crazy and gobble up nutrients
Chop the tops off and replant
Repeat steps 2-3
Result: heavily planted tank!

I'll go back to the LFS and ask/see what kind of med/high light fast-growing plants they've got in stock. Do I need to pack every inch of substrate with plants to start? Once I get said plants, should I turn my Kessil up to max output?


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Haha I wish it was as simple as those 5 steps! Growing like crazy will happen for sure given your setup but you left out the part where there aren't nearly enough plants to handle all that light and algae grew like crazy as well  You simply don't have enough to gobble up those nutrients so algae stepped in to eat the leftovers


Packing the tank is ALWAYS preferable but things will still be the most difficult while things settle in (first month or two). Things are much easier when the tank is heavily planted.

Many people choose to load up on high-uptake plants like floaters or water sprite or hornwort or something else that is easy to maintain while things get going. They will consume the excess light / nutrients while the rest of your plants get established. The you just phase them out while things grow in.

Look into buying some plant packs off of someone on the forum here. The for sale section usually pops up some good package deals for cheap. It's a community here - people would be willing to ship you a package of their overgrown floaters for minimal cost. People with good high tech tanks have to trim quite often and they will usually look to just get rid of the trimmings for cheap on here vs throwing perfectly healthy stems in the trash.

Also I would honestly just start over and clean out your tank vs trying to save it from that much algae. I know it sucks but it will be way easier to start with a clean slate, tone down the lighting by a lot while things get going, and ramp up from there. Your dying plants are only going to make things more difficult and killing the algae certainly will not prevent it from coming right back in full force unless your plant mass / light issues are addressed.

Jumping in feet-first to a high tech setup is a mistake that many many many people make. It's easy to get impatient and then run into an algae farm. Start slow, pack the tank with easy plants, ramp up lighting as things settle in and you have algae controlled, and then it will all come together eventually.

Don't give up! You have all the makings of a great high-tech setup. Just stay on top of it, do water changes all the time, clean out any filth from your fish (organic matter can trigger algae outbreaks), etc


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for the great advice, klibs!

I definitely missed the memo about starting out slow =D


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## jmelvin (Aug 11, 2014)

I had the same issue. I started my high tech tank and not enough plants. One thing I noticed was a ton of brown algae as in your pictures. Later I found out my phosphates were pretty high due to my city water. I switched to RO and increased my plants. Smooth sailing so far. 

The siesta period at mid day has really helped as well. 

Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

By substrate "breaking down" I mean basically turning to mush. I agree with klibs, it may be easier to start over. Also if you are able you could replace your substrate if you are able. What I found that if a lot of plants have died in the tank, a lot of mulm starts to build up algae always seems to come back no matter what i do. Ever since i dumped my ADA aquasoil which was at least 5 years old (it was mush) and replace it things (coupled with a very limited photo period) has been much better. No algae so far and its been about a month and a half. 

I would also agree with klibs about buying plants off of here instead of the pet store. Good luck and keep us posted!


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

I agrre with Krib on the amount of plants and buying them from this forum all my plants came from plant pkgs. bought on this forum.Look especially for the stem plant pkgs. for fast growing plants to out compete the algae.


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

jmelvin said:


> I had the same issue. I started my high tech tank and not enough plants. One thing I noticed was a ton of brown algae as in your pictures. Later I found out my phosphates were pretty high due to my city water. I switched to RO and increased my plants. Smooth sailing so far.
> 
> The siesta period at mid day has really helped as well.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N900T using Tapatalk


Ack, I hope I don't need RO! Maybe the siesta will help me too


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

I have not noticed the substrate turning to mush, so I guess it's holding up well. I took everything out, bleached it, and put it back in without the rocks and other driftwood (except the big one with anubias). That's when it became clear how very under-planted I was!

I have some plants on the way from a RAOK, but I went to the LFS and bought a couple bundles of fast growing plants (2" a day according to the guy there, I checked for Hornwort but they were out) to hold me over in the meantime. I'll keep on the lookout for more boxes of fast-growers here.



jasa73 said:


> By substrate "breaking down" I mean basically turning to mush. I agree with klibs, it may be easier to start over. Also if you are able you could replace your substrate if you are able. What I found that if a lot of plants have died in the tank, a lot of mulm starts to build up algae always seems to come back no matter what i do. Ever since i dumped my ADA aquasoil which was at least 5 years old (it was mush) and replace it things (coupled with a very limited photo period) has been much better. No algae so far and its been about a month and a half.
> 
> I would also agree with klibs about buying plants off of here instead of the pet store. Good luck and keep us posted!


Bump:


Doogy262 said:


> I agrre with Krib on the amount of plants and buying them from this forum all my plants came from plant pkgs. bought on this forum.Look especially for the stem plant pkgs. for fast growing plants to out compete the algae.


Thanks, I'll keep a lookout. Nice tank, what kind of fish is that?


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

dmanno said:


> I have not noticed the substrate turning to mush, so I guess it's holding up well. I took everything out, bleached it, and put it back in without the rocks and other driftwood (except the big one with anubias). That's when it became clear how very under-planted I was!
> 
> I have some plants on the way from a RAOK, but I went to the LFS and bought a couple bundles of fast growing plants (2" a day according to the guy there, I checked for Hornwort but they were out) to hold me over in the meantime. I'll keep on the lookout for more boxes of fast-growers here.
> 
> ...


The red one is a dwarf gourami I also have a blue one both males and they get along because the tank is 40gal.so plenty of room to stay away from each other.Thanks


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

klibs said:


> Haha I wish it was as simple as those 5 steps! Growing like crazy will happen for sure given your setup but you left out the part where there aren't nearly enough plants to handle all that light and algae grew like crazy as well  You simply don't have enough to gobble up those nutrients so algae stepped in to eat the leftovers
> 
> 
> Packing the tank is ALWAYS preferable but things will still be the most difficult while things settle in (first month or two). Things are much easier when the tank is heavily planted.
> ...


What Klibs said pretty much sums up what I would have recommended too. When plants die, they release all sorts of organic stuff that algae totally love. The focus on beating algae always starts off with healthy plants. If the plants you purchased from Neptunes (I was just there today on my lunch break) weren't that healthy to begin with, chances are, they wouldn't thrive in your tank. 

Your best bet is to pull all of the plants, suck out all of the mulm, algae and crap, use a gravel vac, scrub everything down and basically just beat down and harass that algae. Don't forget to clean out your filter too. Keep any plants that still look healthy, and then toss anything suspect or on it's way out.

While you're at it, buy a large STEM plant package from either someone here on the forum, making sure that they are fast and easy growers. Or buy from a reputable place like aquariumplants.com.

You want to pack the tank with healthy plants so that you start off on the right foot. While you're at it, it would be helpful if you could get your hands on a PAR meter to see where your PAR readings are at because the human is really crummy at telling how bright something is, especially when it comes to LEDs cuz of their focused beam. 
Finally, something that I learned from Tom Barr is that the most difficult thing to deal with is inconsistant CO2 throughout the entire tank. Meaning there are many things that can slow down the circulation of CO2. Things like a filter starting to clog, a CO2 ceramic diffuser needing cleaning, plants over growing thus slowing down water flow, etc. When I had CO2 issues, I dropped in a powerhead to help with water flow on top of a heavy plant trim and a thorough cleaning of my filter, and my tank vastly improved.


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

genetao said:


> What Klibs said pretty much sums up what I would have recommended too. When plants die, they release all sorts of organic stuff that algae totally love. The focus on beating algae always starts off with healthy plants. If the plants you purchased from Neptunes (I was just there today on my lunch break) weren't that healthy to begin with, chances are, they wouldn't thrive in your tank.
> 
> Your best bet is to pull all of the plants, suck out all of the mulm, algae and crap, use a gravel vac, scrub everything down and basically just beat down and harass that algae. Don't forget to clean out your filter too. Keep any plants that still look healthy, and then toss anything suspect or on it's way out.
> 
> ...


When I took everything out for the bleach dip, I also used a razor blade on the glass and a gravel vac to clean out the gravel as well as possible. 

I ended up buying a plant pack from a member here, plus I won a couple of RAOK. I threw everything in and let it grow, but still had some algae issues. I followed another thread and did a peroxide treat of the entire tank, which seemed to work pretty well (no livestock casualties, either). I slowly turned up the light intensity and duration, but some plants melted anyway (Persicaria 'Kawagoeanum', Pogostemon Erectus, Rotala Rotundifolia, Hydrocotyle sibthorpioides, Staurogyne repens). 

I recently bought some different Hydrocotyle (the large mass in the center of the tank) and it's been growing. But I do see algae growing inside the mass (see closeup photo).

I also bought a bunch of Staurogyne repens again in hopes it would grow this time since it's supposed to be a lower-light plant. I read on this forum that other folks with higher light had melt-offs too, so I'm hoping it'll grow this time...

Finally, last week I added maybe 3/4 lb of Amaco Mexican Pottery Clay to the substrate since my Rotala Colorata and Limnophila aromatica are green as can be. 

So now, over a month later, I mainly only have algae in the hydrocotyle and lower parts of some other plants. I'm not quite out of the woods yet. I just dialed down the light intensity a little bit today because I've noticed the algae seems to be getting worse again. I also notice that my plants seem to be growing tall and skinny, I'll have to do some research here and see what that means...

I've only got a 29 gallon, so adding a power filter might be quite unsightly! Not as unsightly as a ton of algae, though  And I'm hoping there's some PAR data out there for this kessil tuna sun, as I'd rather not buy one to use once, if you know what I mean.


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

I take it back, there's more algae here than I thought. What am I doing wrong? Too much light? The top half of everything looks great, the bottom half terrible. And my new batch of s. repens is starting to melt again! 

Every time I test nitrates, I get 10-30 ppm. Nitrites and ammonia are always 0. The drop checker is always light green. Light on 7 hours, 9am-12pm and 5pm-9pm. CO2 on at 7am, off at 8:30pm.

Is it better to crank up the light intensity to max and reduce the time to 6 hours again? Am I under-planted still? That log and the anubias take up 1/3 of my tank. The hydrocotyle bush is getting bigger and sits right in front of the spray bar that spreads the CO2 around, maybe I do need a powerhead? I'm determined to get this right!


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

dmanno said:


> I take it back, there's more algae here than I thought. What am I doing wrong? Too much light? The top half of everything looks great, the bottom half terrible. And my new batch of s. repens is starting to melt again!
> 
> Every time I test nitrates, I get 10-30 ppm. Nitrites and ammonia are always 0. The drop checker is always light green. Light on 7 hours, 9am-12pm and 5pm-9pm. CO2 on at 7am, off at 8:30pm.
> 
> Is it better to crank up the light intensity to max and reduce the time to 6 hours again? Am I under-planted still? That log and the anubias take up 1/3 of my tank. The hydrocotyle bush is getting bigger and sits right in front of the spray bar that spreads the CO2 around, maybe I do need a powerhead? I'm determined to get this right!


Okay, wait when you say that the top half looks great, do you mean the health of the plants? Or do you mean the amoung of algae infestation? Because if you're referring to the health of the plants (e.g. the lower half of the plants look spartan, dying, etc) then this is almost a case of insufficient light or fluctuating CO2 parameters.


But if you have a Kessil 160, then you def. don't have low light. Depending on how how you're turning up the brightness, you might end up having way too much light. If you're PAR is 50 or above, most everything will be able to live. With a Kessil only hanging 6 inches above the tank like you have, you can easily get 300 PAR without breaking a sweat. So I doubt it's insufficient light, but more likely to be fluctuating CO2. 


Again I'm no expert, so I've always deferred to the experts, and what I've found is that having inconsistent CO2 parameters is what causes plant health issues, and at the same time triggers certain algae to grow. If memory serves me right, fluctating CO2 parameters stresses out plants because they can't adapt that fast because of plants use energy to produce more rubisco to utilize the CO2:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuBisCO


But when you have daily fluctuations of of CO2 parameters, it wreaks havoc on a planted tank because the plants cant adapt quickly enough. Say you started out with 30 PPM in the morning, and ended up with 70PPM by night, even with high to then extremely high CO2, there's still a 40PPM swing throughout the day. The plants just can't adapt that fast. So older leaves tend to die and fall, while the youngers leaves still look decent.



You're doing the right thing by turning on your CO2 two hours before lights on. Because the first hour is where plants need CO2 the most, and then their needs for it tapers down throughout the day. 


So again, make sure to clean out that filter nice and good so that the flow is decent. Then add a powerhead to see if that helps with CO2 circulation. It doesn't need to be a very large or powerful powerhead. If I were you, I'd get a Hydor Pico 180. It's only 4 watts, but can go from 0-180 gallons per hour with the adjustable flow valve. Plus it's tiny and unobtrusive.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23729

The other option is to leave your CO2 on 24/7 for a week and see if the plants start looking better. Because like I was saying earlier, if the plants aren't getting consistent flow of CO2 (like in the morning), then the plants get stressed. 

Let us know how it goes.


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## genetao (Jun 25, 2008)

One other question, what are you using to diffuse the CO2? If you're using a ceramic/atomic diffuser, those things need to be cleaned periodically. Never scrub them because that'll clog the pores, and make it worse. Just bleach it out good, and then dechlorinate with Prime.

If however you're using a CO2 reactor, those never really need any cleaning, at least not for the sake of CO2.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Dude Kessil's put out a TON of light. I have never owned one but I know they put out a big amount of PAR. Couple of things you should do:

Raise that light up! Way too much light. Pendant lights don't spread that much so you need to get it to cover your tank better. Looking at that photo the middle stems are getting BLASTED and everything else is dark.

I think your kessil should be a lot higher up than that. Others who own them can better answer that question.

Trim those rotala stems down. It's kind of a tangled mass in there so unless things are going really well the bottoms will start to struggle. Also you should spread them out more so they have space to grow out. Packing stems that tall that tightly means that some will be out-competed and not be able to survive as well.


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## BrentB (Dec 4, 2014)

Patients.... it sound like largely you are on the right track but in my humble amateur opinion there is a cycle process for plants just like fish sometime the harder you fight worse you make it. Also a lot of the plants I have bought from mass growers on line are grown out of water and will die off a lot and then come back after i plant them submerged if you have followed most of the advice and research you have done as it appears I would try taking a deep breath and letting the plants adjust and start to grow some varieties can take 4-6 weeks to take hold of the tank and over come. Also I love my otto algae eaters I have a 90g they leave my plants alone and work the algae.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I have a pair of Kessil A160we Tuna Suns over my 120H. They're roughly 28 or 29 inches above the substrate, can't remember exactly, and running them at 75% intensity gives me a PAR reading of 50. That is plenty of light. You don't need a ton of light in your tank and don't listen to those who tell you that you do. You do need good nutrient distribution. N, K, P and micros are easy. CO2 will be the hard one.

I would borrow/rent a PAR meter if possible and would raise the light as far above the tank as you find aesthetically pleasing given light spill, etc. and shoot for 40-50 PAR. Being higher over the tank will give you more even coverage.

Then I would toss every algae covered and unhealthy plant, clean the tank and remove every bit of decaying plant matter, algae and crap including from the substrate. Basically I would almost start over. Work on good flow in the tank. You don't need it to look like a washing machine, but you want to be sure that the CO2 you're adding is making to all of the plants.

Let me also stress water changes in a new/unstable tank with algae issues. Large, as in 50% or more, every other day or so are very helpful until things settle down. Good maintenance and keeping the tank clean go a long way in resolving problems. Clean the glass and fan the plants to suspend all the stuff that settles on them so it goes out during the water change. This also applies to one's self but that's another topic, lol.

My free link of the day that I'm handing out to everyone comes from eight years ago and it's just as applicable today, but a lot of people still don't get it.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...-aqua-forest-and-nice-low-par-values-who-knew

Here's another that you might find helpful although it's really long and there's a lot of chit chat you'll need to wade through but the basics of setting up a new tank are good.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=168992

If and when you master running a tank with this amount of light then give more light a shot if you still have the urge. I've found healthy plants and no algae issues quite satisfying.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Jeff5614 said:


> I have a pair of Kessil A160we Tuna Suns over my 120H. They're roughly 28 or 29 inches above the substrate, can't remember exactly, and running them at 75% intensity gives me a PAR reading of 50. That is plenty of light. You don't need a ton of light in your tank and don't listen to those who tell you that you do. You do need good nutrient distribution. N, K, P and micros are easy. CO2 will be the hard one.
> 
> I would borrow/rent a PAR meter if possible and would raise the light as far above the tank as you find aesthetically pleasing given light spill, etc. and shoot for 40-50 PAR. Being higher over the tank will give you more even coverage.
> 
> ...


+1 to this post.

Start slow with the lighting


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## dmanno (Feb 6, 2010)

genetao said:


> Okay, wait when you say that the top half looks great, do you mean the health of the plants? Or do you mean the amoung of algae infestation? Because if you're referring to the health of the plants (e.g. the lower half of the plants look spartan, dying, etc) then this is almost a case of insufficient light or fluctuating CO2 parameters.
> 
> 
> But if you have a Kessil 160, then you def. don't have low light. Depending on how how you're turning up the brightness, you might end up having way too much light. If you're PAR is 50 or above, most everything will be able to live. With a Kessil only hanging 6 inches above the tank like you have, you can easily get 300 PAR without breaking a sweat. So I doubt it's insufficient light, but more likely to be fluctuating CO2.
> ...


I'll take a look at the filter, but it was pretty clean last time I checked (eheim 2213).

I've got an old hagen elite submersible filter that I can put in there for now for extra flow. I have no idea how many GPH... might not be enough? Without any extra powerhead, all my plants are swaying already, and the CO2 is floating up to the spray bar to be dispersed. Seems like I've got pretty good flow already, but I'll add this hagen and see if it makes a difference.

Bump:


genetao said:


> One other question, what are you using to diffuse the CO2? If you're using a ceramic/atomic diffuser, those things need to be cleaned periodically. Never scrub them because that'll clog the pores, and make it worse. Just bleach it out good, and then dechlorinate with Prime.
> 
> If however you're using a CO2 reactor, those never really need any cleaning, at least not for the sake of CO2.


It's a ceramic atomic diffuser, pretty new. I'll clean it out again, anyway.

Bump:


Jeff5614 said:


> I have a pair of Kessil A160we Tuna Suns over my 120H. They're roughly 28 or 29 inches above the substrate, can't remember exactly, and running them at 75% intensity gives me a PAR reading of 50. That is plenty of light. You don't need a ton of light in your tank and don't listen to those who tell you that you do. You do need good nutrient distribution. N, K, P and micros are easy. CO2 will be the hard one.
> 
> I would borrow/rent a PAR meter if possible and would raise the light as far above the tank as you find aesthetically pleasing given light spill, etc. and shoot for 40-50 PAR. Being higher over the tank will give you more even coverage.
> 
> ...


Per the suggestions here, I just raised my light up. The kessil is not the best choice for a non-cube tank as the light spill is pretty bad, hence why I had it so low. My plan was to put lower-light plants in the corners (like my anubias and wisteria). Now that I've raised it, it's about 23 inches above the substrate. I had it up to 75% and maybe 18-19 inches above before, so I must have been blasting way too much light! I just turned it down to about 60%. Borrowing a PAR meter seems like a great idea.


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## Angelbotia (Apr 27, 2015)

Following.
Doogy beautiful tank! I'm still trying to find the balance in my tank, but I'm close. It's all about experience and research. You'll get there with patience. May the force be with you.


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