# Sump or Canister?



## phopf (Dec 17, 2016)

If you are adding CO2, a sump represents a lot of extra surface area and agitation, which means a lot of off-gassing. The rate of loss should be roughly constant, commensurate with CO2 levels, so it is possible to just "dial up" your CO2 to compensate, as long as your reactor is able to handle it. 

That being said, I don't know what the economies would be, although it would be interesting to hear what the additional CO2 use for a sump setup compared to an identical system with a canister filter would be.

CO2 issued aside, a sump lets you put all the unsightly equipment in the sump, reducing your in-tank presence to just the overflow grill, and also allows you to grow more plants in the sump (or to have a predation-free shrimp colony).


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

I typically go high tech with co2. So if I'm able to reduce surface agitation or seal off the area that the water enters the sump to reduce off gassing, then a sump would be a decent option versus canister?


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## bblumberg (Sep 6, 2006)

timwag2001 said:


> I'm in the works of planning a new tank. Sumps always interested me but never really set one up or studied up on them too much. Why do you prefer a sump to a canister and vice versa.


All of my FW tanks have Eheim canister filters which are about as bulletproof as filters come. I use 2 per tank so that there is always adequate biological filtration. 2 x 2017 in my 125g discus tank and 1 x 2015 and 1 x 2078 in my 90g angelfish tank (I know, this is overkill, but the 2078 was replacing a 2015 that I accidentally cracked the return outlet on and could not wait months for the part to be in stock). Lately, I have been replacing the Ehfisubstrat Pro balls with Siporax as this seems to do a very good job of keeping nitrate levels under control. 

Reef tanks all use sumps with protein skimmers. One with filter socks and the other with filter pads. Socks require more maintenance, of course.

I am considering using a large sump with a substantial quantity of Siporax (20L or more) in a new 150g discus biotope build and wonder whether anyone else has done this.

Bruce


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## phopf (Dec 17, 2016)

I have always been concerned that the 'waterfall' that occurs over the lip of each baffle would result in too much off-gassing. That being said, I have never seen any actual data (even anecdotal) on the amount of CO2 lost, and would be interested to see if anyone has switched from a cannister to a sump (without changing the tank/plan load) to see whether there was a substantial change in their CO2 use.

All I was saying is that this is a concern I have often read about sumps. I have no idea how this translates in terms of normal CO2 consumption. If it means a difference between 5 and 6 bubbles per second, then I would be interested myself, but if it is more like 20 bps, then I would be somewhat less enthused! (And, I will admit to laziness in terms of the work to build a sump might have had some influence as well)


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## steveo (May 25, 2012)

Generally speaking, sumps make more noise than a quality canister filter.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

I think I have a design in my head that would eliminate most of the off gassing and would also eliminate the splashing in the sump down below.

Are there any performance benefits for sump versus canister.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Added water volume, more equipment possibilities, additional flow and cost. Those are some perks I've experienced over a canister.

Water volume is pretty self explanatory. I added 50-75g of water volume to my tank by using a sump over a canister. Added water volume does a couple things that I personally enjoy. I overstock my display tanks by utilizing the volume of the sump. It gives a more appealing visual to me in some cases. It also means bad things happen less quickly. 

More equipment is sort of a personal thing. Most of us, from what I've seen and read, prefer a tidy display tank. I have three heaters in my sump, not something I would love looking at in the display tank. I have a purigen media reactor, again, hideous but easily hidden under the stand. I have five gallons of bio media, drastic overkill, but I have it. I also use filter floss that I rinse very regularly, several times a week. That would be a major headache in most canister setups I've seen. But I open a lid, pull it out, take it to the sink, rinse and, quite literally, repeat. 

Flow is something I have an easier time managing with my sump. Many canister users add additional power heads to compensate for flow. I don't know of many 2000gph canister filters. The FX6 is about half of that, uses 43 watts. My DCT-8000 is rated at 2000gph and uses 68 watts. There are plenty of return fittings and styles, from loc line to goofy custom spray bars. This is true of both canisters and sumps, but a single sump pump can easily be directed throughout the tank.

Cost is a big one for me. I spent very little on mine, all things considered. I did get the tank for free. I love sumps, I enjoy plumbing tanks. I don't think everyone should have one. Anything under a 75g, I'd probably just stick to canisters as a suggestion. If you need help or leave on vacations, sumps are more intimidating than a canister could ever be.


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## nherman2002 (Dec 28, 2016)

I've always used canisters because theres no worries about leaky bulk heads or over flowing the sump if the pump breaks and also because the water is forced through filter pads in a canister where as in a sump the water falls over some bio balls or carbon. Honestly I would use either but I didn't want to buy a drilled tank and spend the extra money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

I've run both, I really like both. Sumps are easier to service usually louder more time to fine tune and setup just right, Cannisters are usually dead silent a bit more work to service setup is usually super simple. 

Currently running 2 Fluval FX4 on my 93g cube.


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## ichy (Apr 6, 2015)

Lot of generalizations about sumps that are not necessarily true.

You can design a sump with laminar flow that is both dead silent and has minimal off gassing.
If your sump overflows in a power outage you designed it wrong.

I have a coast to coast skimmer to an external bean animal to a 29 gallon sump.
It can't overflow the sump in a power outage and the only thing I hear in the living room is the SunSun canister running on the other aquarium.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> Added water volume, more equipment possibilities, additional flow and cost. Those are some perks I've experienced over a canister.
> 
> Water volume is pretty self explanatory. I added 50-75g of water volume to my tank by using a sump over a canister. Added water volume does a couple things that I personally enjoy. I overstock my display tanks by utilizing the volume of the sump. It gives a more appealing visual to me in some cases. It also means bad things happen less quickly.
> 
> ...


As mentioned probably the biggest factor is increased water volume. The ability to hide equipment and customize your sump to your needs or desires and the ability to modify them as your needs change.

Dan


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

I can see the sump versis canister debate is full swing. (grin)

Basically both work very well. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I will also add that when I look at DIY sumps I designs that range from fantastic to ones that I would consider garbage. 

A sump is going to require a lot planning with more plumbing and an overflow of some sort, and a decent return pump.

The choice comes down to what do you want out of your system? You can build a case for either, and be right. 

Since you have never done a sump before, your best course of action might be to set one up using a comparatively small tank first. Something like 20 gal or so would work well. Then learn on that, keeping in mind that it's a lot easier to clean up a flood from that compared to a 150 gal tank.

This brings up another thought. How large a tank are you planning? On smaller tanks a sump is often not cost effective for what you will get out of it. You can still use one, but you'll go through all that work mostly for bragging rights and a marginal improvement.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

DaveK said:


> I can see the sump versis canister debate is full swing. (grin)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is pretty spot on. I'll never go back to a canister because I never plan to have a smaller tank than what I have (125g). Sumps shine past 75g or so, depending on your canister options. I do personally enjoy the 'bragging rights' and enjoy the plumbing, so it's a big portion of the hobby to me. A lot of people are in a rush to get it done. If you don't want a DIY project, I'd go with a canister 10 times out of 10. Store bought sumps are expensive IMO. 


They both work, they are both fine.


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## Christophe (Oct 23, 2013)

For bigger tanks especially, sumps are well worth it.

All your hardware lives there, so you have few if any exposed wires, pipes, hoses. Less stuff in the tank also makes it easier to clean.

The sump buys you options for dissolving CO2 without killing your filtering flow. Add a small pump from the sump through a Cerges reactor, returning to the sump. This way you aren't affecting your return flow to the tank at all. You lose a lot of flow with a canister by putting a reactor on its return line.

Gas exchange is your best friend with a planted tank. Oxygenation is under-appreciated but critical when you're injecting CO2. Yes, it does offgas some of your CO2, but you can always just turn it up a bit more to make that up. At the end of the day when CO2 turns off, you want it to work out of the system quickly. Plus, the overflow keeps your water surface scum-free, further improving gas exchange.

If you go with a Herbie or Bean Animal drain design, and choose your pumps carefully, it's at least as quiet as a canister.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

DaveK said:


> I can see the sump versis canister debate is full swing. (grin)
> 
> Basically both work very well. There are advantages and disadvantages to both. I will also add that when I look at DIY sumps I designs that range from fantastic to ones that I would consider garbage.
> 
> ...


75g minimum. Haven't pulled the trigger yet but Ive always been unhappy with the limited space of a 55g. I was just never able to get the depth that I wanted in my scapes


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

timwag2001 said:


> 75g minimum. Haven't pulled the trigger yet but Ive always been unhappy with the limited space of a 55g. I was just never able to get the depth that I wanted in my scapes


I'd say that with a 75 gal tank you can go either way. On my 90 gal I use an Eheim Pro 3e on it, but if I were doing it again, I'd seriously consider a sump. 

I quite agree with you about the 55 gal tank. The frontal area is great and that's what makes them popular, but I think that because the tank is only 12 inches wide, doing a good aquascape is very difficult. I feel it's a poor choice for most aquarium setups.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

ichy said:


> Lot of generalizations about sumps that are not necessarily true.
> 
> You can design a sump with laminar flow that is both dead silent and has minimal off gassing.
> If your sump overflows in a power outage you designed it wrong.
> ...


Love it. How would you make the laminar flow? Fill the pvc with airline?


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

ichy said:


> You can design a sump with laminar flow that is both dead silent and has minimal off gassing.


Yes. But that would immediately kill almost every single advantage a sump might possibly have over a canister.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

a properly set up sump should be a lot easier to deal with in the long run

i run a reactor off of one of my EHEIM 2217 and the flow is reduced by quite a bit. wish i had a sump for reasons stated above


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

The closest thing to laminar flow in a sump, that I can imagine, would be a baffleless sump. The best way to set that up would be using eggcrate to hold up some of the media and poret foam. The water would flow silently through it. Not ideal in my opinion. That's how my last sump was setup and I wasn't a fan of the overall ease of maintenance and such. If you can't handle the sound of baffles splashing, I suggest not using a sump. The noise is minimal. After you add lids and a cabinet, it's pretty quiet.


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

Well. Thanks for your help everyone. I had my heart set on a sump but just landed a deal on a 125g glass tank and I dont trust myself to drill it. Sorry to waste all of your time.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

timwag2001 said:


> Well. Thanks for your help everyone. I had my heart set on a sump but just landed a deal on a 125g glass tank and I dont trust myself to drill it. Sorry to waste all of your time.


Two options, pay a local fish store or glass store to drill it or punk out and buy canisters. >


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## Discusfan99 (Feb 25, 2017)

Why not both? :grin2: I'm currently running a 210 gph canister and a 490 gph diy sump.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

A pair of Fluval FX4s would top that off really nice on your new tank...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Can someone post a youtube of these quiet sumps? I gave it a try, but even the quiet designs I tried you could hear the trickle of of the water. An eheim canister filter is dead silent. That was the deal breaker for me. For me a sump is superior because it excels at oxygenating the system. I've got a used sump system in the for sale forum.


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

IUnknown said:


> Can someone post a youtube of these quiet sumps? I gave it a try, but even the quiet designs I tried you could hear the trickle of of the water. An eheim canister filter is dead silent. That was the deal breaker for me. For me a sump is superior because it excels at oxygenating the system.


A sump is superior at oxygenating specifically because is perturbs the stream and does a lot of splashing. And this is why it makes noise and also intensively outgasses CO2. The moment you make your sump laminar and quiet is the moment it stops being superior at oxygenating.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

Craigthor said:


> A pair of Fluval FX4s would top that off really nice on your new tank...


That filtration setup alone is about the total cost I have into my current tank build.



IUnknown said:


> Can someone post a youtube of these quiet sumps? I gave it a try, but even the quiet designs I tried you could hear the trickle of of the water. An eheim canister filter is dead silent. That was the deal breaker for me. For me a sump is superior because it excels at oxygenating the system. I've got a used sump system in the for sale forum.


You won't find what you are looking for. Sumps have some noise no matter what. They can be extremely quiet, but if the sound of surface agitation annoys you, sumps make about that much noise. If you are use to canisters with returns under the water, no surface agitation, etc, it will be noisy. There is a sound of running water because it isn't a closed system.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

IUnknown said:


> Can someone post a youtube of these quiet sumps? I gave it a try, but even the quiet designs I tried you could hear the trickle of of the water. An eheim canister filter is dead silent. That was the deal breaker for me. For me a sump is superior because it excels at oxygenating the system. I've got a used sump system in the for sale forum.





Freemananana said:


> *You won't find what you are looking for. **Sumps have some noise no matter what. *They can be extremely quiet, but if the sound of surface agitation annoys you, sumps make about that much noise. If you are use to canisters with returns under the water, no surface agitation, etc, it will be noisy. There is a sound of running water because it isn't a closed system.



NOOOO!!!! :grin2:

ADJUST with gate valve precision.
NO NOISE.

*Below* - The Emergency standpipe is waiting for an issue with the normal operation of flow.












The *Herbie drainpipe method* used for 2 holes typically in the aquarium (1 norm, 1 emergency).
The *Bean Animal drainpipe method* for the aquarium exit holes and now with 3 drains out.

The pipes have a lot to do with the sound.
These two methods (above) have dead silent sound once controlled with a gate valve.

The Pump is where the sound is coming from at times.

Control the sound vibration issues by using a DC controllable pump OverSized and turned down a little bit to control the noise of the harmonics of a pump on high.
Sometimes the sound issue is the dampening of the pump by using additional silicon rubber feet. 

The trickle area of a filter is a area of interest too.
The porosity of foam used in a stack vertically does change the sound as well.

Being able to tune the sump noise from pumps and pipes the key.
There is a silent sump.

*My computer fan sounding noise on my Kessil light is the only noise now.*











*BELOW* IS A link to a GHOST OVERFLOW.
This is a very new method of doing things with the water and eliminating noise.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1efoFItRq8


Even the cheesy open sump design below is not complete and is still silent.
The only noise comes from the stack of sponges in the 1st part. That can be adjusted by moving the sponge closer to the falling water. It should be simple common sense.

I still see plenty of air bubbles running toward the sump foam to aid in biological bacteria.
I have other posts over the forum on quiet sumps.


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm running a sump on my 45g reef with a 30g long sump, also running a sump on my wife's 28g bowfront goldfish with a 20g high sump. Both setups are herbie style, on the reef I only hear my protein skimmer, on the goldfish I can only hear the return pump if I stick my head in the cabinet.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> I'm running a sump on my 45g reef with a 30g long sump, also running a sump on my wife's 28g bowfront goldfish with a 20g high sump. Both setups are herbie style, on the reef I only hear my protein skimmer, on the goldfish I can only hear the return pump if I stick my head in the cabinet.


Exactly.

No noises on a Herbie drainpipe Method.
It makes good sense to hear things when they do go wrong.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

The sound of water cascading from my tank over the weir into my overflow makes noise. It is audible. The trickle through my stand pipe and my full siphon are super quiet. I could add foam to the overflow area to quiet it, but I ENJOY the sound of a slight waterfall while viewing my tank. My refrigerator is louder than my tank and they are side by side. My DC return pump is pretty quiet, but you can tell the difference between it running and it not running.


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Noise from filtration systems, sumps or canisters, is very subjective. What I consider "silent" might sound like a jack hammer to someone else. 

Generally sumps or canisters can be made "silent" although you may need to work a bit more at this when using a sump. This happens because you usually need to plumb the thing yourself, especially if you want an advanced overflow like the bean animal or herbie overflow.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> The sound of water cascading from my tank over the weir into my overflow makes noise. It is audible. The trickle through my stand pipe and my full siphon are super quiet. I could add foam to the overflow area to quiet it, but I ENJOY the sound of a slight waterfall while viewing my tank. My refrigerator is louder than my tank and they are side by side. My DC return pump is pretty quiet, but you can tell the difference between it running and it not running.


'Just curious.
Are you running a gate valve?
A standard ball valve is nice, but a proper sized gate valve (Spears brand gate valves) can do wonders for controlling the drainpipes.

Up above, depending on how adjustable the standpipes in the overflow are, it can help dial in the sound and water flow.
A tilted or slant-cut emergency pipe can help too.

The most important little helper is a Water Top Device.
They can make a sump run perfectly as well as take care of the sound in the overflow due to the out of control water issue without using a Water top Device.



DaveK said:


> Noise from filtration systems, sumps or canisters, is very subjective. What I consider "silent" might sound like a jack hammer to someone else.
> 
> Generally sumps or canisters can be made "silent" although you may need to work a bit more at this when using a sump. This happens because you usually need to plumb the thing yourself, especially if you want an advanced overflow like the bean animal or herbie overflow.


I've seen the reef set-ups where they luckily had a wash room and sump combo.
They ran a small siphon on a dripper to the system, and then had the huge water top off device keeping up the fresh water coming in.
-great set-up


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

theDCpump said:


> ...
> I've seen the reef set-ups where they luckily had a wash room and sump combo.
> They ran a small siphon on a dripper to the system, and then had the huge water top off device keeping up the fresh water coming in.
> -great set-up


I do something similar on my reef system. It's almost a requirement to have some sort of good ATO (auto top off) system. In my own reef, I have found that it can evaporate about a bucket of water, 2+ gals, a day in winter. This is because of the massive flow and circulation. 

FW tanks don't usually have that kind of circulation, so the evaporation rate is much lower, and it's often easy enough to just refill the tank with a bucket.

Still if money is no object, such an ATO system can save you some work.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

theDCpump said:


> 'Just curious.
> Are you running a gate valve?
> A standard ball valve is nice, but a proper sized gate valve (Spears brand gate valves) can do wonders for controlling the drainpipes.
> 
> ...


I'm running a true PVC gate valve and not a ball vale. My drains are dialed in quite well actually. But the weir from the main tank to my plumbing is where the noise is. You need to have enough room over the emergency standpipe to let it reach a full siphon in case of emergency, so your pipes need to be mounted lower than you may anticipate to keep the running level down. The cascade, over the weir, into your overflow box is the noisiest part of my setup.


What is a water top device? An auto top off? I googled and didn't find anything. My return pump sits in about 40 gallons of water, so evaporation and water loss aren't an issue I need to remedy with an ATO.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> What is a water top device? An auto top off? I googled and didn't find anything.
> My return pump sits in about 40 gallons of water, so evaporation and water loss aren't an issue I need to remedy with an ATO.


Yes, you are correct, the amount of water over the intake/drain (on a start-up) is a very important point to check.
The incoming pumping water should be a positive aspect for helping a siphon starting as well.

Yes, an ATO.
I did not know too many people were familiar with the term ATO, so I went the other direction.

On both my sumps the evaporated water will change the whole ratio that was at peace before in my overflow.
I think that is why my noise problem was solved for me with 2x ATO for the 2 sumps.

*When the sump is low (evaporation)* the pump is working harder to put water up to the tank, and I notice the slow-down in the display tank's weir/overflow.
*When the sump is too high (my over-filling hand top-off)* the pump's work is easier to put water to the tank, and I notice it being high in the display tank's weir/overflow.

Here is my 60gal. (pic below) cube and those thin crunchy snails (on emergency pipe) from the pet shop.










The 2nd tank's weir looks almost the same.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

theDCpump said:


> Yes, you are correct, the amount of water over the intake/drain (on a start-up) is a very important point to check.
> The incoming pumping water should be a positive aspect for helping a siphon starting as well.
> 
> Yes, an ATO.
> ...


Yup! ATOs are very common actually. Maybe not on this forum, but in the hobby in general. My weir drops down about 4" where yours doesn't look like it drops at all. Your weir doesn't appear to set the water level? Your trickle drain is higher than it? 

Here's my weir for reference:



My trickle is on the left and the pipe on the far right is dry unless one of the other drains clog. The full siphon is in the middle, but hard to see.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> My weir drops down about 4" where yours doesn't look like it drops at all. Your weir doesn't appear to set the water level? *Your trickle drain is higher than it? *
> 
> Here's my weir for reference:
> My trickle is on the left and the pipe on the far right is dry unless one of the other drains clog. The full siphon is in the middle, but hard to see.


I run a Herbie (2 holes in the tank).
1 full siphon, 1 Emergency.

--Herbie Overflow Method Reef Tank Plumbing Guide-- (<-Google this or use link). GMAC reef is the source.
*Herbie Overflow Plumbing Guide for Quiet Reef Aquariums - gmacreef*


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

theDCpump said:


> I run a Herbie (2 holes in the tank).
> 1 full siphon, 1 Emergency.
> 
> --Herbie Overflow Method Reef Tank Plumbing Guide-- (<-Google this or use link). GMAC reef is the source.
> *Herbie Overflow Plumbing Guide for Quiet Reef Aquariums - gmacreef*












The emergency still have water flow down it though, right? Or do you actually dial in the full siphon to handle all the load?


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## coldmantis (Aug 17, 2010)

When I was building the overflow box on my wife's goldfish tank i decided to do toothless wier which makes it completely silent.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

coldmantis said:


> When I was building the overflow box on my wife's goldfish tank i decided to do toothless wier which makes it *completely silent.*


Let it ring from the tree tops!

Silent weir.
Silent DC pump.
Adjustable things in the sump to silence any other issues.

Bliss


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

theDCpump said:


> I run a Herbie (2 holes in the tank).
> 1 full siphon, 1 Emergency.
> 
> --Herbie Overflow Method Reef Tank Plumbing Guide-- (<-Google this or use link). GMAC reef is the source.
> *Herbie Overflow Plumbing Guide for Quiet Reef Aquariums - gmacreef*


Um... Why do they use the word "siphon" to refer to an ordinary drain pipe? What's "siphon" about it? Where does the siphon principle come into play there?

Did they just want to use a "scientifically"-sounding word in a sentence?


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

AndreyT said:


> Um... Why do they use the word "siphon" to refer to an ordinary drain pipe? What's "siphon" about it? Where does the siphon principle come into play there?
> 
> Did they just want to use a "scientifically"-sounding word in a sentence?


While technically not the correct term, "siphon" refers to a drain with no air in the pipe. It moves water unobstructed. It's just like par. Par isn't actually what we are referring to when we say "par". 

My overflow is a 'toothless weir' but I put up some netting for the smaller fish. Just throwing it out there! :laugh2:
@theDCpump Does any water go down your 'emergency' standpipe?


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> [/IMG]
> The emergency still have water flow down it though, right? Or do you actually dial in the full siphon to handle all the load?


No water in emergency. Some Herbie Method users will use a trickle, but I have the emergency almost dry. A few splashes or a high moment may get it wet.

I run a full siphon with a DC pump.
I turn down the Gate valve just a smudge to tune it, and also allow a good opening for plants and other garbage to pass freely.
The gate valve builds that people use are choked too much and may get something caught up on the ledge (murphy's law). 

Keep a proper sized gate valve nice and open.



Freemananana said:


> @theDCpump *Does any water go down your 'emergency' standpipe?*


Nope.

Emergency is open.


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

theDCpump said:


> No water in emergency. Some Herbie Method users will use a trickle, but I have the emergency almost dry. A few splashes or a high moment may get it wet.
> 
> I run a full siphon with a DC pump.
> I turn down the Gate valve just a smudge to tune it, and also allow a good opening for plants and other garbage to pass freely.
> ...


Gotcha. Not a fan of that drain setup myself, but to each their own. I'd imagine most would call my tank 'silent'.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

AndreyT said:


> Um... Why do they use the word "siphon" to refer to an ordinary drain pipe? What's "siphon" about it? Where does the siphon principle come into play there?
> 
> Did they just want to use a "scientifically"-sounding word in a sentence?


It works just like a Siphon hose on a gas tank or a fish tank.

Imagine draining a swimming pool with the control of a *precise dial.*
The speed of the falling water is now under your control.

Now, imagine having a pump turn on into the pool.
You will be able to control and match (valve on siphon hose) the pump to the falling water like magic.

Bump:


Freemananana said:


> Gotcha. Not a fan of that drain setup myself, but to each their own. I'd imagine most would call my tank 'silent'.


For 2 hole drilled tanks it's great.
Two holed tanks are everywhere in local shops.

I wish I had a 3 hole Bean Animal on my current sumps.
We have a 120gal. Bean Animal project in the garage though!


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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

I just can't imagine having one drain actually dialed in that precise. Flowing 2000gph down a single drain is just a lot to ask. I have my 1.5" drain about half closed with the gate valve.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Pulled my FX4's off the 93g Cube as I couldn't get rid of the film on the top. Installed a simple Eshopps Wet/ Dry with HOB Overflow, nice simple clean and quiet. As for off gassing I've done some major changes to the tank and moving is another direction as I play with a full on West African Blackwater setup.

Sorry the pictures so dark got everything cleaned up and snapped a couple quick ones. Almost silent my FX4s were a bit quieter but not much.


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## AndreyT (Apr 28, 2011)

theDCpump said:


> It works just like a Siphon hose on a gas tank or a fish tank.


The reason we call a gas tank siphon a "siphon" is because it is indeed a classic genuine _siphon_: the hose goes _upwards_ first, through the gas tank inlet, and then drops down into the receiving vessel. The whole reason it is called a "siphon" is that it makes liquid to "magically" _ascend_ by itself first, over an obstacle (gas inlet on a car, edge of a fish tank, gravel embankment in a garden etc.), without employing external power. And it creates that "magic" by relying on the well-known siphon principle. The same applies to the fish tank siphons. The whole point of a siphon is that it makes liquid to flow through an inverted-U path, which begins with an _ascending_ segment.

Now, where is a siphon in the overflow diagram in question? Where is the part that makes the water to flow upwards by itself?



theDCpump said:


> Imagine draining a swimming pool with the control of a *precise dial.*
> The speed of the falling water is now under your control.


Great. An ordinary straight drainage pipe with a precise valve. Never called a "siphon" though, since it isn't.



theDCpump said:


> Now, imagine having a pump turn on into the pool.
> You will be able to control and match (valve on siphon hose) the pump to the falling water like magic.


Um... Firstly, where exactly is the magic? There's no magic in manually matching a drainage valve to a pump. It is a purely manual job. Secondly, still there's no siphon here of any kind.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

Freemananana said:


> I just can't imagine having one drain actually dialed in that precise. Flowing 2000gph down a single drain is just a lot to ask. I have my 1.5" drain about half closed with the gate valve.


Deep Blue brand tanks have 2 holes usually.
They call it a "Corner Flow".
1 small hole takes a 3/4inch pipe ride down to the sump.
1 larger hole takes a 1-1/4inch when a clog happens.

The 3/4 inch drain hole turned down just a bit (gate valve) sure lets enough water go down to the sump for what were doing on a 60 gal.freshwater tank.


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## theDCpump (Jul 22, 2016)

AndreyT said:


> The reason we call a gas tank siphon a "siphon" is because it is indeed a classic genuine _siphon_: the hose goes _upwards_ first, through the gas tank inlet, and then drops down into the receiving vessel. The whole reason it is called a "siphon" is that it makes liquid to "magically" _ascend_ by itself first, over an obstacle (gas inlet on a car, edge of a fish tank, gravel embankment in a garden etc.), without employing external power. And it creates that "magic" by relying on the well-known siphon principle. The same applies to the fish tank siphons. The whole point of a siphon is that it makes liquid to flow through an inverted-U path, which begins with an _ascending_ segment.
> 
> Now, where is a siphon in the overflow diagram in question? Where is the part that makes the water to flow upwards by itself?
> Great. An ordinary straight drainage pipe with a precise valve. Never called a "siphon" though, since it isn't.
> Um... Firstly, where exactly is the magic? There's no magic in manually matching a drainage valve to a pump. It is a purely manual job. Secondly, still there's no siphon here of any kind.


They call it a siphon drain in the GMAC reef link, and many in the reef forum refer to it as such.
If you want to take them to court in front of a magistrate, then yes, the siphon may be discarded in their literature.

The reefers like to use the term even if it is used loosely.

...And yes, a sump is magic to the eye of an outsider.
Have some fun, cheer up.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tWMzmiU3wDY/maxresdefault.jpg


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## briandmiles (Feb 23, 2005)

*They usually are a true siphon*

Quite often these are set up with a inverted section that can help keep them even quieter. This would meet the ascending portion of your siphon requirement.

Brian


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

When I was going to set my sump up I was going to experiment using a couple of changes to BeanAnimals. I was going to install an s trap into the standpipe (think of your toilet) with more of a slope entering the sump. I was also going to seal off the first chamber of the sump and possibly introduce co2 into one of the standpipes. 

Your thoughts?


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