# Roseline Sharks Dying



## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

I have had 3 roseline sharks die in the past five days. The one that died, I did not notice the symptom you see in the picture. I no have an additional roseline with both eyes bulging. They are not cloudy, in fact you can see the rosleine through it. This fish is in a quarantine right now and seems to be digressing furthur. Gasping kind of and not swimming normal. 

I have done 2 - 50% water changes since the first one died and my water paprameters are right where they need to be so I am ruling out water quality as a cause for this. 

This morning after doing another water change I noticed an additional roseline in the display tank with eyes starting to bulge. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really would like to prevent losing more. 

I am running CO2 at 25psi and am wondering if the pressure of the gas is causing the eyes to pop out. If it is pop eye it can be bacterial but it is typically not contagious which is what is bothering me about an additional one contriving the same symptoms. This is what is leading me to a gas issue. I did pull up a bunch of rooted plants the other day so maybe it is nitrogen gas from the substrate causing the problem?


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

do you have a water test kit? What are your parameters. If you don't go buy a test kit. I can't believe the number of people on this forum who don't have test kits for their fish. Your plants don't need them but your fish do. Is the tank new? Where did you get the fish from? Pop eye comes from a lot of things: poor water conditions, poor diet, or parasites. But the most probable cause is poor water conditions. How long has the tank been set up?


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

My guess is the CO2. These guys come from fast moving , high oxygenated waters.


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

I have all the test kits I need.

Nitrate - 5ppm
Nitrite - 0
Ammonia - 0

Again other than a parasite, I do not believe water quality issues are the cause here. My water is fine and it is crystal clear. In fact other than EI dosing I could probably go a coupel weeks without water changes if I wanted. I still have been changing 50% every week however.

I have been keeping fish for 30 years and have never had this happen to more than one fish. And typically what I have seen when it does happen is a cloudy white pop eye. This does not resemble that which leads me to a gas problem. I do have a hydor power head running. And two Emperor 400's which is why my water quality is fine in this 55 gallon tank. Because I went with power filters on this tank and using a diffuser I had to increase the pressure pretty high and have to run it 24 hours on a controller set to a PH of 7 so that I can keep CO2 at optimal levels for the plants. I have a bunch of surface turbulence from the power filters and the power head so It is crazy I would be having gas problems but it is the only thing that makes sense. Other tan possibly bringing up a bunch of nitrogen when I pulled up 4 bunches of rotala.

The tank has been set up for three months. The fish have been there for almost two with no issues. Only other fish in the tank is 6 otos and a mustard spot pleco.

I am thinking possibly CO2 also... but the fish in the main display are not gasping for breath at all and seem perfectly fine.


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

The roseline in the picture just passed. Less than 48 hours after seeing the eyes bulging. I will bet the other one I noticed today will go quickly as well. I have lost 4 so far, and it will probably 5 tomorrow.


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## NStarr (Jun 3, 2011)

Bulging eyes are a sign of either a parasite or bacterial infection.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Are they the only fish get sick in the tank?

Last time I had the massive fish die off(due To acute columnaris), some of the fish did not show the typical columnaris symndrone but had bulge eyes, and died within 24 hours once showing signs of infection


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

The roselines are the only fish that have passed. The otos are fine and the pleco is fine but he mustard spot pleco was the last fish put in a little over a week ago. They are typically wild caught so that could be the culprit. But it shows no sign of anything.

What is the best treatment... procedure...


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

bottom feeder fish/catfish don't fall for columnaris that easy.

please check up driftwoodhunter's thread to get the best suggestion, I don't use meds in my tank...


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

Bettatail said:


> bottom feeder fish/catfish don't fall for columnaris that easy.
> 
> please check up driftwoodhunter's thread to get the best suggestion, I don't use meds in my tank...



In 30 years I have never had to medicate a tank. I agree with you on that. Not that eager to dose meds...


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

The 5th roseline is gone. 

Everything I have read about columnaris does not match what is going on here. 

Other than swimming funny I have not recognized one symptom that matches columnaris. Personally I think they were swimming funny because they were having trouble seeing with their eyes bulging out. 

I read this about pop eye:

It can also be caused by a carbon dioxide level in the water that is too high as a result of carbon dioxide enrichment of the water. If the carbon dioxide is released as bubbles the fish can swallow them, and this can cause pop eye.

It is really pointing towards gas bubble disease either from CO2 or nitrogen supersaturation from when I pulled up 4 bunches of plants. In the distant past I have had a few fish die from disturbign the substrate and releasing nitrogen.


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## Higher Thinking (Mar 16, 2011)

I believe you can only get that gas when you create anaerobic areas deep in the substrate. I don't think this happens unless the substrate is very deep and typically with sand. With substrate like gravel it would take probably over 6 inches.


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

I agree. Probably unlikely I have enough nitrogen built up in the substrate in three months time to wipe out 5 fish. It is about 4 inches deep. Thanks for the info. I did not realize the substrate had to be so deep for gas to come out.

Just for kicks I tested the waters again and 

Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5ppm
Ammonia 0

Not my water... 

Looks like it could be CO2?

My drop checker has shown light green for the last couple weeks. Definitely no yellow tinge to it. Last night I changed the fluid in the drop checker just to make sure and 24 hors later the drop checker shows a light blue-green. So if it is CO2 it is not oversaturating that can be the problem. It is not oxygen depletion either. Don't have the equiupment to test it but if two Emperor 400's and a hydor powerhead can't create enough oxygen in a 55 gallon tank? 

Then again with the way roselines swim, they may use up more oxygen then you might think. Which is why they may thrive in oxygenated waters. 

Still a mystery. I hope I don't lose any more. All the rest or should I say the last 4 look very healthy and have eaten twice today voraciously. Mayb they will make it... we will see...


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Any updates? I've been following your thread since I'm having a crappy time of it with columnaris. I hope you didn't come home to more losses...


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

I remember talking to people about red bugs and acroflats in reef tanks. I thought freshwater would bring less talk about losing livestock. I have kept many fish in my possession for over 8 years and even up to 14.5 years. Seems to me freshwater can be more complicated with many different bacteria in freshwater that can just wipe everything out in no time. I have not lost many fish in my lifetime. Always bother me when I do. Typically I am listening to others telling me stories of acroflats wiping out all their SPS they had been growing for years in just a couple weeks. But that is another story. 

I am happy to report I have not lost another roseline and they are all eating well and look healthy. I did lose an Oto today but honestly it is probably this hobby screwing with me and the Oto's death is totally unrelated as they are very sensitive and the last batch was only put in a month ago. There are still 5 Oto's kicking. So no the death has not stopped but things are looking better. 

I have been doing 20 gallon water changes every other day. I really would rather not medicate since I cannot pin down the problem. I have had red bugs in a reef tank before. Its like catching a cold so everyone gets them at some point. Questionable if it is really a huge problem. And some buddies of mine are starting to feel that killing red bugs just givs acroflats a way in. Mostly people dose the tank with dog's heartworm medication, Interceptor. Problem is you are certainly going to kill a lot of fauna you better have a way to replace it quick or your tank will just begin its demise of building detritus because there is no fauna to clean up the mess. 

So right now, even with the Oto passing, I can't just medicate without knowing exactly what I am treating. Potentially destroying your beneficial bacteria may just turn into a bigger problem then you had in the first place. 

I am sorry to hear about your tank. driftwoodhunter:icon_cry: Don't let it make you forget why you like keeping tanks in the first place. You will get things back around and keep the fish you have wanted to raise. Thanks for your concern:fish1:


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## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I am very happy for you! It's a sinking feeling to have a tank spin out of control, and not know how to best help the fish...doing a series of water changes was a great idea.
I'm sure you're right about the oto being unrelated, from all I've read they're tricky anyhow.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Now I remember I had fish died this way long time ago, when Higher Thinking mention depth of the substrate.

OP, stir the substrate see if there are large amout of bubbles come out.
The substrate too deep and no oxygen can reach, bacteria dicompose the bio-mass and creat carbon monoxide and methane(swamp gas), which posion the fish.


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## Jeffww (Aug 6, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> Now I remember I had fish died this way long time ago, when Higher Thinking mention depth of the substrate.
> 
> OP, stir the substrate see if there are large amout of bubbles come out.
> The substrate too deep and no oxygen can reach, bacteria dicompose the bio-mass and creat carbon monoxide and methane(swamp gas), which posion the fish.


CO isn't a product of biological processes (although hypoxic combustion of fossil fuels generate CO). The poison gas that's formed is H2S; organisms tend to switch to new, more efficient form of respiration if one route is insufficient, not continue at half steam. And as far as I understand methane is not dangerous to animals. 

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rhf/index.php


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

I think you have more problems with anaerobic substrate when it is finer grain and older. It is bad when you see black soot coming from the substrate when you disturb it.

Happy to report I have no fish losses today at all and they all are looking healthy.

Hopefully the worst is behind me...

I would still like to know the cause so it doe snot happen again.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

Jeffww said:


> CO isn't a product of biological processes (although hypoxic combustion of fossil fuels generate CO). The poison gas that's formed is H2S; organisms tend to switch to new, more efficient form of respiration if one route is insufficient, not continue at half steam. And as far as I understand methane is not dangerous to animals.
> 
> http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rhf/index.php


Good to know, I do not really understand the process how the posionous gas create, but did have fish die this way.
I buried the large amount of plant mass in 3" deep of eco-complete for a month tried to speed up the tank cycling, added fish and they all pop eyes and swim funny, some survived after I moved them
to another tank, but the damage was permanent, all survivors had pop eyes back to normal but "hoping" since then because they lost their ability to swim, typical sign of nerve damage.


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## illumon8 (Jun 9, 2011)

Another day has passed and all is well...:icon_cool


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