# L183 fish room journal ///



## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I have had the pleasure of keeping this beautiful ancistrus for about 2 years now, Ancistrus dolichopterus to be exact. I purchased 3 for what one cost now from a local fish store, that from time to time has more oddball stuff than the others in my area. The striking "starry" patterning and clear, pure white of the line on their dorsal and anal fins. Now after quite a few territory disputes between them only one is left. 

Since moving to a home with a proper basement I have been itching for a project like this and so it has begun. A few weeks ago a friend gave me a 37g that was no use to him after I found him a very nice 75g (who is a member of the sitem thanks Jon). Also in the mix is a 30gLong that was given to me by another member on this site and my current partner in an aquatic business/hobby forray (thanks Tim). I had a few extra Eheim filters after a bulk purchase for the aforementioned aquatic venture so it just had to have been fate. Tanks, Filters, I had some lights and even some left over spent ADA Aquasoil, which the L183's enjoy quite a bit of driftwood as most ancistrus do so the soil was a perfect match.

Here are the pics I have. Thee were some more of the building of the stand and the fish during acclimation but a camera malfunction has destroyed them im afraid.

Here is what I have right now, you cant see the 2215 under the tank but it's there.








Their current home, I have some more wood on the way!:bounce:








Seeing this will make you want to put together a proper stand pretty quickly!








The 30long, im waiting on a 2217 to arrive. Ill have the 2217 in the 30L and the 2215 and 2213 on the 37.








Fish in the bag.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The fish in their new home. Fenton, MO 63026.

























The new stand. Not quite ADA but at least the color is right.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

Sweet. I was gonna have to scold you if you hadn't built another stand. :hihi:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Scold, what a funny word, im gonna have to use it today. Yeah that was scary for sure. I guess like canister filter tank size recommendations shelving manufacturers weight capacities are a bit optimistic. I am happy with it. When we moved in the previous owners left a bunch of 2x4's from finishing part of the basement so I didn't need to buy any of them. All in all I have $33 in it including $12 for the paint.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

bsmith said:


> Scold, what a funny word, im gonna have to use it today. Yeah that was scary for sure. I guess like canister filter tank size recommendations shelving manufacturers weight capacities are a bit optimistic. I am happy with it. When we moved in the previous owners left a bunch of 2x4's from finishing part of the basement so I didn't need to buy any of them. All in all I have $33 in it including $12 for the paint.


lol, before I clicked on this thread I was actually thinking I should have used the word chastise too haha.
That's a pretty sweet deal for a huge stand.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

72"Wx18"Dx24"T


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## vca2004 (Sep 7, 2009)

Where are all the other tanks of the "fishroom", I just see one...:tongue:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Its a room with fish in it, you must be spoiled.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Nice. That is a cool fish. I followed the link.

"Scold", that's a good one too. We were just saying the other night that we want to try to re-popularize "yonder", as in "over yonder hill".


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Here are the latest pics. I have to thank my wonderful wife for helping me organize all the fish stuff I have accumulated over the years. 
THE WHOLE DEAL








Left side of the 37g the 4 183's are in








Center








Right








37's 2215








37's 2213








30g that is next to the 37 for fry separation if necessary. It has some DW in that is soaking.








30g's 2217


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The STARS of the show!!!

























Does anyone feel I should have the filtration any different? The 2213 on the 37 is just shooting out of the tube to reduce flow and I think im going to drill larger holes in the 2215's spray bar to decrease pressure as these fish are from a black water area in the amazon and don't have too much flow. I think though that the filter's are on the right tanks.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I was reading some articles over at planet catfish and stumbled across a product called the screwcumber, this got me thinking about what I could use to do the same since I was not willing to pay $25 to have 2 of the screwcumber shipped from the UK to me. So I headed down to my local Lowes and here is what I did.

Purchased 10 stainless non coated I bolt screws and ground off the point with my Dremel. $4 cant beat it.

























I wonder if they (my plecs) would like Celery, or if they would tolerate Grapes? I know they are horrible for dogs.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I transferred the original L183 from my 55g into the tank in the journal. The conditions and feeding will be much more to his liking. 

This was the first time I had ever held a pleco in my hand because of fear that I would get stuck. But after seeing people holding foot long Panaque in their native habitats I figured a 3" ancistrus could do no harm. It was really cool.

























Here are pics of it in a bucket. I cay it because im still not sure if it is a male or female. Im more inclined to say male because the bristles go up the snout between the eyes but still they aren't quite a prolific as so man of its other brother.

















Just some more random tank shots..

















This is the remains of a cucumber from the night before. Hungry suckers.


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

Great journal so far. Your plecos are beautiful. Your so lucky to have a fish room. Our house is on a crawl space and I don't have the money to build a separate building in the backyard, so no fish room for me. Since my wife doesn't care about this hobby I don't have to worry about her reading my post so I can say this: The only reason that a full basement is one of my criteria for our next home is so I can have a fish room. Selfish?


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

THose fish of yours are really cool.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you. No I don't think it's selfish at all to want things for yourself, especially if you have earned them. From your avatar it looks like you have. Thank you again. If you look at one of the first sentences I wrote I can thank this room to me now having this proper basement. My home before this didnt even have a crawl space, so I couldn't even play around in there.:biggrin:



bherren1 said:


> Great journal so far. Your plecos are beautiful. Your so lucky to have a fish room. Our house is on a crawl space and I don't have the money to build a separate building in the backyard, so no fish room for me. Since my wife doesn't care about this hobby I don't have to worry about her reading my post so I can say this: The only reason that a full basement is one of my criteria for our next home is so I can have a fish room. Selfish?


I hope I can get them to get it on, that would be sweet. There tank seems to be about as good as it gets for there natural habitat but _guess well have to wait a year or so until there sexually mature. 



hydrophyte said:



THose fish of yours are really cool.

Click to expand...

_


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

> From your avatar it looks like you have. Thank you again.


Thank you for your kind words. It's a shame about Ft.Hood....I have some buddies stationed there that used to be in the 101st Airborne with me. They are all OK though.

So, do your plecos poop the standard 9" poop strings that the ones you can buy at PetSmart do? You know, the species that PetSmart will sell you with a 10 gal. aquarium knowing that they can reach at least 18". How big does the species you are trying to breed get? Do you know how to sex them?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

My condolences are definitely with the families of those effected at Ft.Hood as well.

As far as the pleco waste there isnt as much as I have seen with other mamoth common plecos. Actually I haven't had enough time to just sit and observe them to see what the deal is with it. I wold thought attribute allot of the common pleco poo to being fed quite a bit of commercial food that contains a lot of fillers. If there is less nutrients digested then more comes out the bottom.





bherren1 said:


> Thank you for your kind words. It's a shame about Ft.Hood....I have some buddies stationed there that used to be in the 101st Airborne with me. They are all OK though.
> 
> So, do your plecos poop the standard 9" poop strings that the ones you can buy at PetSmart do? You know, the species that PetSmart will sell you with a 10 gal. aquarium knowing that they can reach at least 18". How big does the species you are trying to breed get? Do you know how to sex them?


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

Makes sense...I hope they breed for you.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Me to, thank you. :smile:



bherren1 said:


> Makes sense...I hope they breed for you.


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## MPrudent (Mar 29, 2009)

I have no idea why it took me until now to find this thread...It's starting to come together. I will need to come over and checkout the setup sometime. Hurry up and get those fish to breed so I can have a couple for the 125!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well, were probly going to be waiting a while brother. I dont think the 4 newer ones will even be mature enough for a year or so. Heck that last one I just put in there is 3 years old. But you never know.

Whats new down stairs?


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## MPrudent (Mar 29, 2009)

Well....we have enough java moss to fill a pond haha. Tanks are cycled for sure, 55G has about 40 guppies in it now, and the 2 20G are ready to go into production.


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

Nice progress so far! I wish my house had a basement, one draw back of living in texas.

Since you have to wait a year on the breeding, I guess it gives you time to set up more tanks


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## RianS (May 12, 2009)

Nice white seams... I just missed my chance to purchase a bunch of these since the price was a bit high (60+) for one. Instead i can enjoy yours while i keep my money to myself


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Some tiny a$$ cell phone pics.
This is the Original L183 that was in my 55g. I think his bristles have grown about 2x's there length before he got in the new tank. This water must make him happy.

































The newer ones. They like to hang out on the glass when the lights are off.


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## Spachi (Oct 27, 2008)

looks good. what are the goals of your aquabusiness? are you just using tap water? i saw a lot of gallon jugs in the pics.
it took a while besause of my light, but your marsilea is taking over pretty nicely.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I really don't have any goals per se. Just want to see if I can breed them successfully first then see what happens after that. 

The water is straight from the tap. I think the ADA AS and driftwood in there with no carbon in the filter crates a very blackwaterish biotope. I need to post some recent pics it looks more like brown water but that's good with me. 

I'm happy to hear the Minuta is treating you well. Maybe if I want to rescape with it in the future ill get some from you. 



Spachi said:


> looks good. what are the goals of your aquabusiness? are you just using tap water? i saw a lot of gallon jugs in the pics.
> it took a while besause of my light, but your marsilea is taking over pretty nicely.


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

any news from the fishroom?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nope. Just feeding and watching them grow. Since I have put the larger male in he has kind of dominated the tank and I believe found his favorite mate. But again, until the new ones reach maturity we wont know.




bherren1 said:


> any news from the fishroom?


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## susankat (Oct 14, 2007)

Thats one sweet looking male. Been looking to get me some. Been doing a lot of reading on them. They prefer a very soft water to breed in. Around 5.5 to 6.0 So hope you have lots of babies to raise.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Me too. With the addition of some ADA Aquasoil and the natural tannins from the DW the ph was in the ~6 range last time I checked. I am contemplating a RO unit but there are more important thing right now my funds can be apportioned to. 



susankat said:


> Thats one sweet looking male. Been looking to get me some. Been doing a lot of reading on them. They prefer a very soft water to breed in. Around 5.5 to 6.0 So hope you have lots of babies to raise.


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## susankat (Oct 14, 2007)

I know that feeling, I have been trying to get more tanks to setup breeders for my L180's, L66's and L333's on top of having abns, browns, calicos and such.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

That sounds like quite a lot of work. But im sure you will have some good success with them. 



susankat said:


> I know that feeling, I have been trying to get more tanks to setup breeders for my L180's, L66's and L333's on top of having abns, browns, calicos and such.


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## boltp777 (Jan 16, 2009)

bherren1 said:


> Thank you for your kind words. It's a shame about Ft.Hood....I have some buddies stationed there that used to be in the 101st Airborne with me. They are all OK though.
> 
> So, do your plecos poop the standard 9" poop strings that the ones you can buy at PetSmart do? You know, the species that PetSmart will sell you with a 10 gal. aquarium knowing that they can reach at least 18". How big does the species you are trying to breed get? Do you know how to sex them?



ahahah i work at petsmart i wont sell you a pleco... ill sell you a couple otos instead =P 55+ for plecos


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

boltp777 said:


> ahahah i work at petsmart i wont sell you a pleco... ill sell you a couple otos instead =P 55+ for plecos


you sir, are an exceptionroud:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

The most exciting thing in this post is the new piece of DW I just put in. Can you tell?

















































Big daddy


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

moved pics in PB so they were deleted. Posted later in journal


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Got some pretty cool shots of the fish last night while I was cat watching. Since my past post I was shipped 3 more of these L183's from the guy I got them from. He is really and awesome person. We talk from time to time and during one of our conversations I mentioned that all of the plecos I had were males because of the facial bristles that were developing. He said hey if I just pay shipping hell send me a few more juveniles. Super cool!

moved pics in PB so they were deleted. Posted later in journalanks11-18-10016.jpg[/IMG]


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Those fish are beautiful Brandon!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Hey if you ever get any spawns from these, I'd be interested- I love them!


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Very cool! I plan on getting some of these guys for my 75g (I am going community, not african or SW lol).


Edit: Ninja'ed...Twice.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

msnikkistar said:


> Those fish are beautiful Brandon!


Thank you. I cant wait for them to all grow up and start getting it on!



lauraleellbp said:


> Hey if you ever get any spawns from these, I'd be interested- I love them!


For sure. 



Caton said:


> Very cool! I plan on getting some of these guys for my 75g (I am going community, not african or SW lol).
> 
> 
> Edit: Ninja'ed...Twice.


They like soft water. The environment their from is a very strange bio-tope in the Amazon where there is hardly any water movement, very warm temps and so much tannin in the water from the organics it has a kind of antiseptic property. 

Now for the other pics I would have had up with the others if PB wasn't acting stupid. 

This is another juvenile male that kind of floats all around the tank. Hanging out places until the other big guys get tired of him being around. 


















This is the adult female that hangs out in the middle of the tank with the flash on. 

















FYI- These were all taken with my iphone, pretty awesome camera for taking sneaky shots. There is also a super bright LED flash that will stay on if you put it in video mode that I use when I am trying to see whats going on when the lights are off.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey if you ever get any spawns from these, I'd be interested- I love them!


+1 to this :wink:

Also, are these specimens that you have wild caught or captive bred?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

S&KGray said:


> +1 to this :wink:
> 
> Also, are these specimens that you have wild caught or captive bred?


If I ever got a chance to get down to to he Rio ***** you can bet your a$$ I would be trying to find these beauties. I'm sure I couldn't take any because of the permits and stuff but man, could you imagine wading in a black water pool with ancistrus all around you, cardinal tetras and other super cool catfish scuttling in the leaf litter! 

These are not wold caught and are actually pretty hardy. In fact the Big Boy was in a 55g that prolly got down to the upper 560's at times and I actually had limestone as the background. I mean that is the exact opposite from what they live in. Cold and super hard water! He lived in there for 2 years or so and then I started reading about them and their habit at and almost puked. He actually killed (I have no concrete proof but I saw him harassing it all the time) a really awesome Rhino plec I had for like 5 years. He was a sub-adult at the time and easily 1/8th the size of the rhino.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

bsmith said:


> These are not wild caught and are actually pretty hardy.


Nice, they should be easier to breed then. I had a chance to pick up some wild caught ones locally but passed up because of the strict blackwater requirements for breeding them.

Would you be able to divulge your source of these captive-bred L183's?


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

bsmith said:


> If I ever got a chance to get down to to he Rio ***** you can bet your a$$ I would be trying to find these beauties. I'm sure I couldn't take any because of the permits and stuff but man, could you imagine wading in a black water pool with ancistrus all around you, cardinal tetras and other super cool catfish scuttling in the leaf litter!


Daydream about it all the time...:biggrin:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

S&KGray said:


> Nice, they should be easier to breed then. I had a chance to pick up some wild caught ones locally but passed up because of the strict blackwater requirements for breeding them.
> 
> Would you be able to divulge your source of these captive-bred L183's?


Its a friend o mine that I believe I first talked to through APC. Would you like me to ask him if he has anymore the next time we talk?


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

bsmith said:


> Its a friend o mine that I believe I first talked to through APC. Would you like me to ask him if he has anymore the next time we talk?


Yes, thank you.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

So my pics got messed up when I consolidated them on PB to an album for this tank and fish. Ooops!

Ill post up the older shots later. 

A couple of days ago I received some pleco cave I found on planet catfish (plecocaves.com I believe) I told them what I had and to send me an assortment. That they did. 7 caves of 4 different types. Here they are. 









http://s147.photobucket.com/albums/.../?action=view&current=plecotank12-2-10014.jpg


















The next day I went down to feed and look around not expecting much. I found that the big man had found a cave he looked and was just hanging out in there. 


















Im still not expecting much but I take this as good news and hopefully well have some action soon enough!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I was feeding the tank this morning. The lights on the tank were off but there is enough coming from the basement windows to give you a decent idea of what is going on in there. 

All of a sudden I saw a little thing on the intake of one of the filters, doing circular motions. Much like a pleco rasping for food. After I broke out my phone and illuminated the tank with the light it was easy to see that it was about a 1/4" long 183 fry!

I had no idea. I thought my females were still getting to the age of sexual maturity. Guess that came and went!

Here are some pics I snapped very quickly, I had to get to work. All in all I would say I found 7-8 but I can say there has to be more. I didnt look that hard. 


























































The tank as its set up now. There are 4 of the 5 plecs in the breeding caves.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Very nice. Caught your thread on planetcatfish and followed it here. Never realized you had a journal here. Very cool. Can't wait to see updates.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

Awesome! roud:

Been waiting and watching :biggrin:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Very nice. Caught your thread on planetcatfish and followed it here. Never realized you had a journal here. Very cool. Can't wait to see updates.





S&KGray said:


> Awesome! roud:
> 
> Been waiting and watching :biggrin:


Thanks guys. It really is very exciting to finally have these babies in my tanks. I have waited soooooo long and was very worried that even though I was providing them with (from what I found during the countless hours of research) optimal breeding conditions and their required parameters that the finicky nature of the L183 would prove too much for me. Since I have never bred plecos before and that my breeding had only been limited to CRS and Discus. 

I finally got the videos uploaded of the babies that I took last night. Here they are. 

http://vimeo.com/19962012

http://vimeo.com/19996080

http://vimeo.com/19995313

http://vimeo.com/19992939


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Here is a pic that I took last night. Can you say hello baby plecos? I counted at least 50 babies. How many fry does a 183 clutch usually produce?


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## shane3fan (Nov 2, 2009)

If you decide to sell and ship some of these I would be interested---if I can afford them.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

shane3fan said:


> If you decide to sell and ship some of these I would be interested---if I can afford them.


+1 to this definitely


According to the PlanetCatfish profile, females usually lay about 50 eggs.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Then I would say almost all of the eggs hatched and are now running around the tank.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Wow- fantastic!!

How long before you're planning on unloading some, and what are you going to ask for them? I'm very interested... if that's what your plans are...


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## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

+3!!!


I would think the smaller the better to ship, right? Come on man...... Don't hold out on us!!:icon_sad:


Maybe if we all beg? :tongue:


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Casualty rate will be too high if you ship small.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I would have to agree with 2wheels. I will be waiting until they are at least 1" in length before I think about moving any of them. 

On Aquabid there being sold for $60/3 fish. But they are wild caught and losses would be high if you did not have the perfect parameters for them. Since mine are tank bred/raised they will be able to be kept in a wider range of settings. These are actually F2-F3 if anyone wants to know.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Here are some pics I took last night of the tank and inhabitants of course.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Momma.



































These two pics best show what I believe is a difference in how far along some of the fry are from one and other in the tank. This leads me to believe that there have been at least two different spawns in the last month or so. Any opinions on this?


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

Possibility of 2 different spawns, batches could be smaller than typical because of first successful spawning. On the other hand, there can be large size differences in fry due to different growth rates because some learned to find food quicker, are getting more food, etc.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

S&KGray said:


> Possibility of 2 different spawns, batches could be smaller than typical because of first successful spawning. On the other hand, there can be large size differences in fry due to different growth rates because some learned to find food quicker, are getting more food, etc.


2 or three successive spawns I would say. I had a local come pich up 10 a week or so ago and that was the first time I actually put my arms in the tank and turned some of the wood over. There are quite a few of these little guys in there. It kinda stinks now that they are getting a bit older that they are starting to behave more like adults and hiding more. 

Here are some more recent shots. 

This is the female that the babies came from. 









Big poppa, looking good as always!

















Little guys.


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Nice fish.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Wow you got some nice fish!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thank you, thank you. I am really just amazed with these guys. Not only how hast they grow and resilient they are but also by their beauty. Especially when they are smaller like they are now. It doesn't get much better than this!


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## DerCribben (Mar 15, 2011)

Pretty amazing bud, are you thinking of branching out into other varieties of Pleco? I always loved them, something about how prehistoric they are... Back when I lived in Phoenix in I had a couple common Plecos my Koi pond that were enourmous. Had to get them in every winter though because they die if the water gets much below 50 (learned this the hard way one year).


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

No I think I'm going to stick with these guys for a while. I
Just got some super awesome S.Barbatus that I can hopefully get to breed when their old enough.


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## VadimShevchuk (Sep 19, 2009)

very cool project!


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Im just happy they finally bred. I was racking my brain to figure out what I was missing at the time I found the wigglers.

I found some other very small swimmers in there so I think there was another spawn a few weeks ago. That makes me happy. I was hoping it wasnt a one hit wonder!


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

bsmith said:


> I found some other very small swimmers in there so I think there was another spawn a few weeks ago. That makes me happy. I was hoping it wasnt a one hit wonder!


Awesome! roud:


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Its been about a month sice a picture update. Did you end up with a second batch? I want some of these bad. Im just playing the waiting game now so hold a few for me please


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Well I have 6 left and am working a deal on 3 of them right now. When would you want them? If you tell me you will get them I will save them for you.


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

Yep. Save me the other three. Should be around the end of the week to pay up. Shoot me a PM with a total.


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## VincentK (Dec 16, 2009)

Oh jeez! First time I've seen these types of plecos before, and they look stunning! Good job with breeding them man!


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## Vancat2 (Jun 23, 2010)

Hi Brandon
just read through your thread....can't wait til I get mine!! 
penny


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

chad320 said:


> Yep. Save me the other three. Should be around the end of the week to pay up. Shoot me a PM with a total.


We will be good. They are saved for you. 



VincentK said:


> Oh jeez! First time I've seen these types of plecos before, and they look stunning! Good job with breeding them man!


Thank you. Now if I could just ge them to do it again. I am going to do a nice WC tomorrow to see if that will get them going now that i Have removed all of those pesky babies from the tank. 



Vancat2 said:


> Hi Brandon
> just read through your thread....can't wait til I get mine!!
> penny


You will be smitten, I guarantee it.

Here is a pic of the setup from a couple days ago. I still havent utilized my 3-10g's in front of the bigger tanks but they are there at least.


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## Vancat2 (Jun 23, 2010)

Bet ya made a nice hunk of change on that spawn! Good for you!!
:fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Vancat2 said:


> Bet ya made a nice hunk of change on that spawn! Good for you!!
> :fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish::fish:


It wasn't too bad, I actually traded a bunch for some stuff I was wanting too. It isn't easy working out deals with people then having them backing out but thats life. Packing these up the first couple of times was a scary event but after the first ones got there safe and sound it was all down hill from there. roud:

Here are some pics from a few hours ago. 

What every good fish breeder/hobbyist should enjoy before a good watching session! 









There are some smaller guys running around so I think there was another spawn a couple of seeks ago. For some reason though it doesn't seem as large as the first ones as far as number of babies running around. Ill have to get to the bottom of that. I just did a large WC yesterday so well see what transpires over the next week or so. :icon_mrgr:icon_cool

Some pics. 










Another adult male fighting to spread his seed. Not really fighting but I think its good that there is some competition in the tank\. More like nature and assures the best genes will be past along. 



































The female first one with a original baby

















Original fry









New guys









Here you can see one of the first ones near a newer baby.


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## AdamP. (Sep 30, 2005)

What is max size on these guys?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

AdamP. said:


> What is max size on these guys?


If you have a huge male 4.5" but they normally get to 4" and a female would be about 3.5"-4". Not big at all. They are perfect for just about any tank. They are also quite tenacious so if you have more aggressive fish they can certainly hold their own.


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## tetranewbie (Oct 6, 2010)

Hi! I'm very happy to say that I've got a boy caring for a nice little clutch of my own... any chance you'd like to swap some babies in the future for a little genetic difference?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

tetranewbie said:


> Hi! I'm very happy to say that I've got a boy caring for a nice little clutch of my own... any chance you'd like to swap some babies in the future for a little genetic difference?


That's awesome, congrats!! 

Post up some pics and info of your setup if you can. If you need any help/advise on selling/shipping them let me know. I'd be happy to help.


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## tetranewbie (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks, sounds great.... they're a little finicky right now, and the tank's way dark so it'll be tough to get some pics for a while. 

I'll definately need some advice on shipping... (I've only shipped shrimp and plants) 

My tank is a 40 cube (ish) 24x22x22... full of driftwood (which they use as caves), hardwood leaves pretty much everywhere, filtered with a fluval 305, temp pretty constant at 82, lots and lots of floating plants. 

I've currently got 4 of these guys in there (one male, three females) I've had them for about six months, they're all 4"+, wild caught. I had them in my discus tank for along time until I saw him guaring something in a cave... I'm still not sure if any of the young made it (lots and lots of hiding spots in that tank)


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I just found a few wigglers with the yolk sac still apparent so hopefully Ill have some more available in a couple of months!


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## Vancat2 (Jun 23, 2010)

woohoo!
talk to you Monday....


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Looking at your algae thread got me thinking about your tanks in general. How about updating your journals soon for us? *hint*


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nothing too exciting to report but i have a fresh spawn. Probably only a couple of weeks old. Everyone is still here so the group consists of 3m and 1f as far as I can tell. I really need to get a couple more females in there, I am really surprised that there hasn't been any fighting whatsoever from what I can tell. No injured males or even signs of fighting like marks or moved/disturbed furniture in the tank. It is also very good but strange to me that the female does not seem to be pestered to death by 3 sexually active (from what I can tell) males. 

In other news I checked my trash can full of RO water with my TDS meter and it was reading 21ppm!!! I replaced the two pre-filter carbon blocks and DI media what doesn't seem to be that long ago and I was hoping the membrane would have lasted longer. With a reading that high (again it feels like I replaced the other filters only months ago, ill check my records) it is clear that my RO membrane needs to be replaced sooner than later, along with the carbon/DI chambers. Most people don't know this but the actual RO membrane does about 95% of the filtering to take out the hardness. That is why in a good 4 stage unit the water first goes through the 2 carbon filters then the RO membrane then the DI chamber. The DI finishes off what the RO doesn't remove. And getting a product water of 21ppm tells me that the RO membrane isn't really doing anything anymore!

Anyway here are some pics. 










































I have kept the lights off for the past month or two in hopes that what appears to be BBA on the glass would go away. Not the case, I think its worse then ever!


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

Nice! Grats on the new spawn.

I also need to pick up a new membrane and carbon blocks for my RO (3-stage, no DI right now). I have been looking at Filterguys and Bulkreefsupply. Where do you get your replacements at?


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## Raiden (Jun 5, 2009)

lol your female is a polyandrist


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

S&KGray said:


> Nice! Grats on the new spawn.
> 
> I also need to pick up a new membrane and carbon blocks for my RO (3-stage, no DI right now). I have been looking at Filterguys and Bulkreefsupply. Where do you get your replacements at?


I get all of my stuff from bulk reef supply. I personally think they have about the best stuff at the best prices on the net. Also when I was first in the market for a RO system I corresponded with their customer service quite a lot and even with the myriad of silly questions I asked they were exceptionally helpful. That goes a long way with me. 



Raiden said:


> lol your female is a polyandrist


Yes, quite the polyamorous plecostomus indeed!

Im not sure if she mates with all of the males since i have never actually witnessed any spawning activity but my thought is that she only breeds with the alpha male that is in the tank. But I have never read any hard concrete info on L183 spawning protocol.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

Mine are doing well when I see them. Don't think I've ever owned a shyer fish. But they are in my fish room at the shop and because of that they don't see much traffic in front of the tank. I can't really recall how big they were when I got them but they seem like pretty slow growers.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

They arent the fastest growers and take about 2 years to become sexually mature, before they will breed.


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## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

I love these fish! They look like baby trophius Duboisi, with those cute little dots. Nice one.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

All that good food is making them horney, you're having really good luck with the fry. That BBA outbreak would make my LFS jealous, I'm almost afraid to go in anymore, the BBA is so bad on their sponge filters you can here little kids asking "what kind of plant is that Mommy".

Nice job on the fry, how long do L183 get at maturity?

Who cares about BBA when you got water parameters that are equal to L183 spanish fly!!!!


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

I take it your 183's don't eat BBA. Nice critters though! I'd go for one of your current batch as I was interested them until I saw BBA wasn't on the menu.

Jim


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Nope not too much eats BBA that I'm aware of. The do do an amazing job dispatching GDA and GSA though. 

Are you saying you want one or since they don't eat BBA you don't want one?

Also, I keep them very well fed. I'm now saying if you don't feed them in a breeding schedule like I do they'll eat it but I'm sure there is a much better chance if it happening.


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

Beautiful fry, SAE are the only fish I know of that will eat BBA. I would be interested in one or two of the fry.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

bsmith said:


> Nope not too much eats BBA that I'm aware of. The do do an amazing job dispatching GDA and GSA though.
> 
> Are you saying you want one or since they don't eat BBA you don't want one?
> 
> Also, I keep them very well fed. I'm now saying if you don't feed them in a breeding schedule like I do they'll eat it but I'm sure there is a much better chance if it happening.


 
I'll hold off for now. Thanks!

Jim


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

2in10 said:


> Beautiful fry, SAE are the only fish I know of that will eat BBA. I would be interested in one or two of the fry.


Yep, and I'm pretty sure SAE's only eat dead/diying BBA. 

Incoming PM.


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## 2in10 (Feb 8, 2011)

bsmith said:


> Yep, and I'm pretty sure SAE's only eat dead/diying BBA.
> 
> Incoming PM.


I agree on the SAE.

Responded.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

nice fry!!!!! i've heard pleco breeding can be quite a challenge!! i've thought of doing it before but it never made it past go.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thanks HD. Yes, the L183 Starlight is a very difficult Ancistrus to breed as they are from pristine blackwater regions of the Amazon that are super clear but are stained like tea due to all of the decaying organic matter in the water that has fallen from the flora surrounding it. The PH the come from is in the low 5's to perhaps even the high 4's/ Right now the PH in the tank here is lower then the API kit I have which the card goes down to 6. There is also very little TDS in the water too.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

It looks like this tank of fish produce a spawn about every 25 days or so. I went down to the basement tonight to finish some housekeeping/filter maintenance/substrate rejuvenation (replacing fert tabs in the substrate that spent) and after looking closely I saw these guys and actually made a pretty big find!


















I think they are very pretty fry!

















Still have the yolk sacks so I would guesstimate that these are a bit under a week old. 

























Here is where my find is posted. I first thought that this was a different males cave (not the oldest/larges male in the tank). This had me questioning how they selected breeding partners since in nature usually the oldest (within reason, obviously there is a time where the oldest becomes frail or not strong enough to fend off the new young buck on the block) is the most dominant and also the largest so it stands to reason that he would always be the mate of choice. But after going over pleco placement im pretty confident that this is actually the females cave so no revelations just yet! I still have never seen the fry still hanging out in the cave with the parent/s before so it is pretty cool IMO to have caught these pics!


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

Nice pics, very cool indeed!!! roud:


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Does anyone think that this much aeration will/can cause any issues?


















Its a Hagen Mini Elite power filter I have bee using in an adjacent tank and I thought that this would ensure that there was plant of o2 in the water. Haven't had any issues (I also ant find any info pertaining specific pH values and o2 levels of if pH has any effect on o2 levels like temp at all) but since the temp is on the higher side I figured that any extra o2 I could get in the water would be a good thing. 

Let me know.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't think it will cause any issues. Just like you said: extra aeration is good for helping o2 levels in higher temp water.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Nice pics bro! They do look awesome, very cute 

And as for the O2, you should be fine. But injecting O2 will raise your ph a bit the same way co2 will lower it. Shouldn't actually affect anything though


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

S&KGray said:


> I don't think it will cause any issues. Just like you said: extra aeration is good for helping o2 levels in higher temp water.





HolyAngel said:


> Nice pics bro! They do look awesome, very cute
> 
> And as for the O2, you should be fine. But injecting O2 will raise your ph a bit the same way co2 will lower it. Shouldn't actually affect anything though


That was my main reason for posting the Q about putting extra O2 in the water. I just wanted to make sure that it couldn't cause any unwanted/unexpected swings in pH.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

I wouldn't worry about changing the pH from increasing DO. If you had high CO2 levels and the aeration caused it to gas off I think that would be different. Also, if ambient CO2 was high in the room it might add some back if the tank had much demand.

Curious though, why do you feel you need higher DO in the tank? Seems that you have a happy and proven set of breeders in the tank.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

fresh.salty said:


> I wouldn't worry about changing the pH from increasing DO. If you had high CO2 levels and the aeration caused it to gas off I think that would be different. Also, if ambient CO2 was high in the room it might add some back if the tank had much demand.
> 
> Curious though, why do you feel you need higher DO in the tank? Seems that you have a happy and proven set of breeders in the tank.


It's just another safeguard. With the pH being so low, the temp so high and these being pretty o2 hungry fish it just makes me feel better having all the protection I can get. And also with Nitrates fluctuating from the amounts of food that I feed them you never know when you are going to get a bacteria bloom and because of that an o2 shortage for the starlights. 

I always come back to Tom Barrs experience with L046 Zebras where a whole group of 8-10 that he had expired because there was just not enough o2 in the water due, again to the higher temps they require.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

This has nothing to do with your thread other than it's about a Pleco, we had a club meeting and auction at "That Fish Place That Pet Place" yesterday and it is a really big LFS with just about everything you could want. Anyway at the auction someone brought in their Pleco and I have no idea what L# but it was beautiful brown with a zigzag Zebra type striping and it was over 12" long. The auctioneer was afraid to pick it up so the owner came up and held it his hand for the audience to see and I don't think he could touch his fingers together if he wanted to, this thing was fat and calm. Well you could hear crickets chirping and nobody wanted this fish because of the tank requirements I'm guessing, so the auctioneer told everyone it was an orphan and it needed a home so some one bid $5 and walked out the door with it and a 50 gallon Rubbermaid container that was worth $20.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Congrats on all the fry, such a cool pleco!


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

How are you keeping your Ph that low with all that aeration?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Bahugo said:


> Congrats on all the fry, such a cool pleco!


Thank you I wholeheartedly agree. 



shrimpnmoss said:


> How are you keeping your Ph that low with all that aeration?


Good question.

I do water changes with 100% RO/DO filtered water which has 0ppm total dissolved solids (the measure of any minerals that are in the water, not very helpful in pinpointing what those minerals are but let's you know what your dealing with at least). So the tank normally has a TDS reading of ~100ppm (last night after a fresh WC it was 84ppm so close enough) which I believe makes i(the water) more susceptible to manipulating the parameters with different methods (could be completely wrong but it sounds right to me). The substrate is about a 65%/35% mix of old ADA AS Ammazonia that I had in another tank and inert natural looking (as much as it can be...) aquarium gravel the respective amounts. So im not sure if the AS is helping at all but maybe a little bit. I also put 3-4 IAL (Indian almond leaves) in the tank a month. These release tannins which stain the water tea color and also I have read that they have an antiseptic quality as well so perhaps they are one of the reasons I have pretty descent sized spawns as the eggs are less likely to mold over. The tank is also loaded up pretty good with DW and they provide water acidifying tannins as well, plus its a must with these Starlights as it is something that they like to lounge/rasp/munch on in their natural habitat too. 

That's about it. No chemicals or anything like that. About 6-8 months ago someone was selling Alder cones in the SNS and after doing some reading on them I found the they are supposed to have similar qualities as the IAL. I got a bunch of them too but it just seemed like they did too little for the amount I had to put in the tank plus they wee messy when they broke down and some of them got moldy after a month or so in the tank. 

Again I rally have no idea what the true pH of the water is because first off I was using a not the most accurate API test kit and the coloration of the test was a fair amount below the 6 that the card goes down too. The tannins in the water could also have effected the color of the test as well. I may just have to get a decent pH pen or a LaMotte pH kit. But since everything is going well im not too worried about it.


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