# black flourite and sand mix?!



## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

Hello, can I use regular seachem black flourite bottom with the black diamond sand from tractor supply company as the topping for a low tech tank? Is this a good combo?

1.5 of fluorite at the bottom and 1.5 of the black diamond sand at the top. Or get the fluorite sand mix with the cheap black diamond sand?

If this isnt good, what's a good alternative?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You wouldn't gain much by using Flourite as a bottom layer. If you want to use the black blasting grit just use it as one layer, and use root tabs or just water column fertilizing. It does look great as a substrate.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

anyone else on this?


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

If you get a recommendation from someone who has 12,000+ posts I think you don't really need anyone else to chime in. However I have what hoppy is suggesting which is the black diamond blasting sand with root tabs. The only advantage flourite has in my opinion over blasting sand is its ability to suck up nutrients for the plants to use. It wouldn't hurt anything to use it in conjunction with the blasting sand just not entirely necessary. Take a look at my 120 gallon tank in my signature for an example of what can be accomplished with blasting sand and root tabs.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

I was not trying to be rude, but this is an open forum and I don't think I was wrong for asking for other people to chime in. I do appreciate his input, but I'm looking for mroe than info. Anyways your tank loooks cool.

Hey hoppy - do you know if I could use Miracle Grow dirt for the bottom and then flourite sand or flourite as top off? Or possibly the Black Diamond as top off?

Im debating on what's best and best bang for the buck.


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

You can use the Miracle Grow if you like. There are a million posts about what to do and what not to do but I'm no pro, so best to use the search. Top it with an inch of whatever you want. Honestly, it does not matter. Use whatever you like the most.

The best bang for the buck is the cheapest one, assuming you like the look.

If you mix flourite and sand, the sand will eventually sink to the bottom so you will have flourite on top.


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## mrbprint (Jan 22, 2011)

I have had no luck with the fancy substrates. They worked well for 4-6 months then the tanks crashed and everything plants and fish died. Here is my 40 breeder at 7 months. Straight diamond blasting sand except for about 6 inches to the right where I buried perforated 3/4 cpvc for the filter pick up in black gravel. Never used ferts of any kind and planted it from day one. Buried in the back are 5 Anubias, the jungle in the front right is Najas Grass, big clumps of java moss to the left and various other areas, some Wisteria here and there and not sure what some of the others are. They were bulbs of some sort from Walmart for $3/5 and they grew. Transferred several to my African tank. I KNOW there is a plastic plant there in the back. It will be coming out when I finally do some serious trimming and pruning.

From a plant standpoint the blasting sand is great. Fine and heavy enough to hold roots very well but not so tight you strip the roots when pulling out. The only problem is it does irritate my Cories mouths. JMO I have tried the fancy stuff but have found the cheap stuff to work better for me. Of course I do not keep the high maintenance plants either. No Co2 etc.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

jcgd said:


> You can use the Miracle Grow if you like. There are a million posts about what to do and what not to do but I'm no pro, so best to use the search. Top it with an inch of whatever you want. Honestly, it does not matter. Use whatever you like the most.
> 
> The best bang for the buck is the cheapest one, assuming you like the look.
> 
> If you mix flourite and sand, the sand will eventually sink to the bottom so you will have flourite on top.


I agree with this:thumbsup::thumbsup:

Incidentally, I agree with the OP that asking for more opinions is a good thing to do. All of us have on very, very rare occasions been wrong about at least one thing:redface:


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

JonAseed said:


> I was not trying to be rude, but this is an open forum and I don't think I was wrong for asking for other people to chime in. I do appreciate his input, but I'm looking for mroe than info. Anyways your tank loooks cool.
> 
> Hey hoppy - do you know if I could use Miracle Grow dirt for the bottom and then flourite sand or flourite as top off? Or possibly the Black Diamond as top off?
> 
> Im debating on what's best and best bang for the buck.


Sorry hard to convey joking around online. I wasn't trying to give you a hard time. Hence the reason I followed it up with my opinions on mixing the two. However Hoppy has some very sound advice. Especially when it comes to lighting that guy is the go to guy.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

mrbprint said:


> I have had no luck with the fancy substrates. They worked well for 4-6 months then the tanks crashed and everything plants and fish died. Here is my 40 breeder at 7 months. Straight diamond blasting sand except for about 6 inches to the right where I buried perforated 3/4 cpvc for the filter pick up in black gravel. Never used ferts of any kind and planted it from day one. Buried in the back are 5 Anubias, the jungle in the front right is Najas Grass, big clumps of java moss to the left and various other areas, some Wisteria here and there and not sure what some of the others are. They were bulbs of some sort from Walmart for $3/5 and they grew. Transferred several to my African tank. I KNOW there is a plastic plant there in the back. It will be coming out when I finally do some serious trimming and pruning.
> 
> From a plant standpoint the blasting sand is great. Fine and heavy enough to hold roots very well but not so tight you strip the roots when pulling out. The only problem is it does irritate my Cories mouths. JMO I have tried the fancy stuff but have found the cheap stuff to work better for me. Of course I do not keep the high maintenance plants either. No Co2 etc.


That looks awesome, can someone post a pic or link of which miracle growth to get? I have a 175 bowfront so not sure how much of that to get.

Also, I wanted to try a home made C02, I saw on you tube i need sugar, mollasses, yeast, water and a jug. How big of a container do I need and how do I hook this up? I have a 55 gallon sump below the tank. I could hide it down there?

And, now I'm thinking possibly, 2" Miracle growth dirt with 1" flourite sand. Will the sand sink through dirt? I would do black diamond sand but I heard its too dense where it might create air bubbles and not allow oxygen to be released?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

On a 175 g tank, home made diy yeast co2 will do nothing at all. Seriously nothing. It would require having 10 bottles running at the same time changing out a bottle every day. Even then, not convinced it would work. 

If you don't want to run pressurized co2, go low light. I'd use mg organic potting soil and blasting sand over it. No point in buying anything flourite. It doesn't offer any actual nutrients. Get some MTS snails and you'll never worry about gas pockets.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

I do like the idea of saving money. lol, so I'll go with Miracle Growth with Black Diamond sand it is!

So, I was wondering if I can do with out the snails. I have piranhas in there and they will end up eating the snails? On top of that, its hard to find around here. So I'm guessing I don't have to worry about the sand going deeper than the dirt.

Okay so my questions are:

1.) Miracle Growth Dirt, can someone provide a link to the bag? there's a few out there.
2.) Whats the process? So put the dirt down for 2" and 1 " of black diamond sand top off. So I emptied my tank last night with just a little water left about a finger tip height. Do I just lay the dirt down and when do I top off and put water in? 
3.)Can I plant slowly? or do I need to plant all at once?


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Piranhas ehh? Very cool. They don't disturb the substrate? Not sure on the snails I would think they would eat your snails. If you don't go to deep you may not have to worry about it.

1.)You want to get the orange bag that says organic on it.
2.) I would do more like a inch to an inch and a half of the organic soil and top that off with the same depth of sand.
3.) You can plant slowly however most prefer to plant heavy from the get go to suck up any ammonia the soil is leaching.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

ok - did some more research and looks like if I did decide to go with Miracle Grow or any dirt for that matter, i need snails or worms since it may cause air gaps and this isn't good for the tank.

However, flourite does not ..........whats anyone's thought on flourite sand with black diamond sand mixed? I could do 1.5" of each. 

Also, do i have to do anything with the flourite to keep its nutrients over time? I heard with dirt u dont?

what's root tabs?


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

I found that I needed snails to aerate my soil even though I was using the black diamond sand as I was still getting rotting roots. I know for a fact that if you went with Flourite alone you would not run into this problem. Root tabs are simply little masses of slow release nutrients for your plants. You push them into the substrate about every 4 inch square. I personally like to use the Flourish ones as they are a bit more expensive but when they break down they look like black sand. The cheapest option though is probably going to be oscomote plus stuffed inside of size 00 gel caps. Buy one container of oscomote and the gelcaps on ebay and you will have a lifetime supply of them.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

ok that makes my decision easier but more painful on my wallet. lol

Even if I choose the flourite sand mixed with black diamond sand, i still need snails? They are all sand...I am willing to do 2" flourite and 1" black diamond if i have to. Just trying to cut corners to spend less here. :-(

Okay, so are you saying with both flourite and dirt, I have to maintain the nutrients overtime since it gets used up? 

What are some of the methods? I know you just mentioned root tabs as 1.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Mixing flourite with black diamond sand in my opinion only complicates the issue further because all of the different size grains end up compacting. If you stay under about 3" with any substrate in my opinion you don't really need snails. The combos I use are pool filter sand if i want something light colored with oscomote plus root tabs because they blend in well if they were to surface. If I want a dark substrate I go with diamond black blasting sand with flourish root tabs. Both of these options are dirt cheap and grow plants well.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

damn ....ok, sigh.....................i want my tank setup so bad. But need to keep finding more info.

Okay, so how long do these root tabs last? Also, what about the fluorite sand, will it run out of nutrients overtime? So now, I'm back to square one....here are my options WITHOUT snails.

1.) All flourite
2.) All fluorite sand?

I need the easiest and cheapest way .....pls help


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

The cheap options I listed above are fine without snails as long as you don't go really deep. Like I would keep it to 3" max. They are far cheaper then flourite and look jut as good. Flourite does not have any nutrients really built in. It however has a high CEC which the other cheaper options I mentioned don't have. All that means is that flourite is able to store nutrients from the water for your plants. If you use root tabs with the options I mentioned they only need to be replaced once every 3-6 months. By that I mean you just have to push some news ones down into the substrate.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

TactusMortus said:


> The cheap options I listed above are fine without snails as long as you don't go really deep. Like I would keep it to 3" max. They are far cheaper then flourite and look jut as good. Flourite does not have any nutrients really built in. It however has a high CEC which the other cheaper options I mentioned don't have. All that means is that flourite is able to store nutrients from the water for your plants. If you use root tabs with the options I mentioned they only need to be replaced once every 3-6 months. By that I mean you just have to push some news ones down into the substrate.


That is great information here, what about organic miracle grow dirt as the fertilizer with black diamond as top off? do i still need root tabs? 

The only issue with dirt is I'm afraid it might eventually kill everything in my tank due to gas pocket build ups in the dirt. I read that we should only have a 3" substrate anyways? so if I were to do this combo, it'd be 1.5 miracle grow and another 1.5 inch of black diamond top off. So in this event, root tabs aren't required?

I assume you just snug the root tabs right next to each plants...this is okay brand?
*http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16826

*So should I even worry about the dirt issue? what's the maintenance like? I'm assume i have to press down on it for the first few weeks until all the air is released and then cycle the tank. Buy trumpet snails to keep it from having air pocket build up? 

If I choose diamond sand, and only taht is substrate, I can just put root tabs to keep plants alive and cycle the tank.

or if i choose flourite sand as base substrate and diamond sand as top off, I just get snails and cylce the tank. Not having to worry as much as dirt being messy and the initial ammonia and gas air pockets.

Seems like those are my three options.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

JonAseed said:


> That is great information here, what about organic miracle grow dirt as the fertilizer with black diamond as top off? do i still need root tabs?
> 
> The only issue with dirt is I'm afraid it might eventually kill everything in my tank due to gas pocket build ups in the dirt. I read that we should only have a 3" substrate anyways? so if I were to do this combo, it'd be 1.5 miracle grow and another 1.5 inch of black diamond top off. So in this event, root tabs aren't required?
> 
> ...


Honestly if I were you I would just get black blasting sand. You want to find the one that has the larger grain size. I will look at the bottom of my bag today and tell you which one is the right size. Then just get flourish root tabs as they blend in with the sand once they break down. They don't have to be inserted under every plant as they will break down. Just every 4 inches square. Keep the sand to 3" or less and you don't need any snails. Nor do you have to worry about the dirt underneath breaking down and making a mess in your tank. The Diamond Blasting Sand is also the easiest in my opinion of substrates to plant in.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

OK sounds good. Let me know the brand,size and where to get them. Can I use clay in the black diamond sand?


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

I just realized your tank is black blasting sand with aquafloura. Not 100% blasting sand?


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

well ive read so many threads and i think for the best use of my time and energy ...i'll go with 5 bags of flourite sand and top off with 1 black diamond sand from tractor supply so its darker on top. I heard flourite sand is more gray.

Now is it neccesary to use clay? can someone provide a link to the clay? Also should I use flourish root tabs for the tank? its replacable every 3-6 months correct? I should place the root tabs next to the root of each plant?

I plan to keep it 1.5" each substrate.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Hah, dude go with straight blasting sand. You are just wasting money with the flourite. The only reason I put aquaflora in my tank is because I had some left from a 10 gallon tank I just piled some in the back of the tank to give me a little height back there. it is not all mixed in or anything.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

TactusMortus said:


> Hah, dude go with straight blasting sand. You are just wasting money with the flourite. The only reason I put aquaflora in my tank is because I had some left from a 10 gallon tank I just piled some in the back of the tank to give me a little height back there. it is not all mixed in or anything.


Did you find out which brand/size/location where to get the sand you are referring to? So just root tabs and blasting sand should work on most tanks?

So the life span of the root tabs? anyone you recommend? Do i disturb while cleaning it?


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Sorry I have been to busy to dig up my old bag. I do know that you do not want the grit that is marked off at the very left of the bottom of the bag.It works fine however it is very fine sand and it ends up compacting more then the others. It is also not as dark black as the others. You want the one that is marked off at the right of the bottom of the bag. Just root tabs will work. Like I said you can use any root tabs but if you use flourish root tabs they blend in in case yo ever disturb the substrate. 

The lifespan of the root tabs is typically right around 4 months in my tanks. However I switch them out at 4 months just because I am paranoid about them running out. I am sure they could go for a longer period of time.

In order to clean my tank I typically take a powerhead and sweep it from the left side of the tank to the right. Almost like I am using one of those lawn blowers landscapers use. Once I get all the mess to the right of my tank I start my water change and suck up all that crap first.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

ok, where do u get the sand? tractor supply? So if it compacts like others, then its prob not safe? but u said 3" or less is okay? 

I wish i knew which size it is incase i make a mistake


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

You wont make a mistake tractor supply has the stuff. Just make sure it doesn't have a mark through the two boxes furthest to the left on the bottom of the bag. As long as you go 3" you will be fine. If you want you can always try malaysian trumpet snails as well. Most people give them away for the cost of shipping on here. I just added about 50 of them to my tank for $2.75 so even if your fish decides to eat them it is not a huge loss.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

i read somewhere that the black diamond sand cuts your fingers since its meant to be blasting sand?

http://www.tractorsupply.com/tools/...k-diamond-20-40-blasting-media-50-lb--3905403


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

There are a lot of negative reviews by people who have not used it. I have used it with a lot of bottom dwellers and they love the stuff. I literally re scape once a week moving things around and it will not cut you. I just did my mother in laws tank last night with the stuff I told you not to get. It still worked out great. However it is brownish black.


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## JonAseed (Oct 19, 2011)

u have anymore pics of your tanks with just the black blasting sand?


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

This shows the slightly brown particles in the small grain I said to avoid. As the larger stuff is jet black and a bit easier to work with.









Again this is showing the stuff that is too small. I only used it because it was all they had in stock at the time. And I wanted to add a little depth to the sides of my front.









This is the size of the stuff I suggested. However it is kind of hard to make out at this angle. That is an adult cherry shrimp "my dark brown variety" in the background.


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