# low tech tank low on nutrients?



## kimrin (Feb 21, 2005)

Hi
I have low -tech, low -light tanks that are planted with various plants that should be okay with my lighting. ( 1-2 watts) Up until recently they were successful and healthy but now everything seems to be falling apart. I have such an overwhelming variety of problems in fact that I'm afraid my post would get out of control if I try to cover it all at once so I thought I would just ask one question at a time to try and get a handle on it. A friend who runs hi-tech tanks told me that I seem to be suffering from nutrient deficiencies. In addition I'm being plagued with this hard green/black spot algae that seems to be attacking everything in a really bad way. In my two largest tanks I use flourite /sand layered substrates and I supplement with Flourish tabs under the root feeders. I also have Flourish Excel,Flourish Nitrogen,Potassium and Phosphorus although I use them sparingly being afraid of what will happen if I OD. I should add that I'm not really interested in starting CO2, I want to stay low tech. Here's my first question.

Crytocoryne Wendtii - leaves yellow and then die. I've had this occasionally in a small way in two tanks but in my 75 I had a large thick grove of it that just suddenly went awful. New growth is still coming up but the older leaves are steadily going, they also seem to be sort of tattered looking in general. 
Does this sound like a nutrient deficiency? 

Thanks for any help you can offer.
Kim


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## Whiskey (Feb 15, 2005)

Diana Walsted reccomends using a soil underlayer in the low tech planted tank, I have tried florite and I like the soil better for this type of tank. Also she reccomends not dosing any ferts, are we not talking about the same book here?

I would reccomend adding hornwort (floating is best) and let it grow. Put some good root tabs under the crypts, after you do a water change and try to pull water out from under the substrate, I have heard of a substrate "crashing" after a few years and this could be what is going on. Pull up one of the crypts and see if the roots are black and stunted, this is a indacation of a bad substrate.

I would really reccomend going by all the reccomendations in Diana Walsted's book, try it on one tank first and see how you like it, I have found this to be a solid method for setting up a low tech tank.

If you are not talking about this book, look it up, it is great reading and the most helpfull book I have read yet. It is called Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, I have found regular soil from your garden works best, the potting soil (like miricile grow) does not work (has no soil content :icon_roll )

What are your tank specs?

how are your non rooted plants doing? -- Are your stem and other rooted plants showing any symptoms?

How long has your tank been set up?

Whiskey


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Are you feeding enough? As well as the soil (and a smaller extent the water), fish food provides the source of nutrients.

Again, really need to know how long the tank's been up and running.


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## kimrin (Feb 21, 2005)

I haven't read Diana's book although I've certainly heard of it. I've also heard of using soil, Tom Barr did a low tech chat presentation that I saw. I considered it when I first set up but was worried about bacteria and contaminants. I'm sorry to say I probably rinsed the flourite way too much also. The sand is just ordinary play sand from Home Depot.
I'm having the worst problem in my 75 gallon. It's just got two 40 watt strips so it's barely over 1wpg. The main plants in it are Wendtii Brown, an Amazon sword, Jungle Val and Green Hygro. I also had some Tropica Sunset hygro which has refused to grow or thrive in either tank so I'm giving up on that. Also giving up on dwarf sag, never grew, always pale and tenellus which grew initially and then went bad. I have marsilea also which probably just needs more light then it gets. Always seems to be covered with a brown sort of algae but doesn't wipe off like the normal diatomic brown algae does.
My first problems seemed to be with the val, some plants grew and some didn't. Some of them still don't and I still don't understand that. Flourish root tabs seemed to have helped but not enough. It also tended to go pale, the leaves would sort of deteriorate, not quite sure how to describe it, they would sort of grow skeletal and then just melt away. Again, just tattered looking, holes develop in the middle and edges of the frond. Anyway, the last 3 weeks I've been adding a little Flourish nitrogen and once or twice I've added potassium and phosphorus as well and it seems to be improving quite a bit. That's the good news.
Everything else is doing worse then ever. I have been using root tabs for a few months. On random occasions, maybe every few weeks I would add a little Flourish Excel. Only recently as I said did I start to add very small doses of the macros. I don't know how much food remains in the tank, I've always had the dilemma over how much to feed my fish, I think I feed them enough but I have a very busy bottom cleaning crew of cories and loaches plus a couple of plecos and some amano's so...it probably gets pretty well cleaned up.
The sword is terrible and growing worse every day. Leaves get brown spots and holes. It also gets that skeletal syndrome where the inside tissue of the leaf just seems to disappear.
The hygro does well until it reaches the surface and then starts getting brown or greenish spots all over it. Another plant I have which was ID'd to me as E.Bolivianus (can't verify ) also grows to the surface and then the upper part of the plant gets spotty and turns ugly like the hygro.
My lace java has always had brown on it's older leaves but I saw yesterday that those leaves are full of holes now and the newer leaves are going bad too.
My anubias grows beautifully but is starting to go down under that hard algae that grows on it and can't be removed. 
These tanks get some sunlight during the day and I wonder if that's increasing the issue with this particular algae. I also wonder if one of the macro nutrients I've added may be instigating it. I really want to fertilize for the sake of the plants but I can only deal with so much algae.
By the way, other than this green/brown spot stuff I have never had any algae in this particular tank. The 37 gallon by contrast (65 watt power compact) has every known type I believe. 2 siamese algae eaters and over 40 cherry shrimp can't keep that one under control and I've only added the nitrogen once. Aside from root tabs I almost never dose anything in that tank.
Sorry for the long post and thank you for your thoughts.

btw - I will look for that book.


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

Ecology Of The planted Aquarium

What is the hardness of your water? Vallis does better in water with plenty of calcium, and can melt when defficient.

Symptoms of pale, yellowing, veiny, skeletal leaves sounds like Iron to me (also brought on by potassium defficiency), so you could try seeing what happens by maintaining a level of 20ppm K and an iron supply each week.
With a low tech tank, you shouldn't have to dose ferts though. I wonder if the presence of a strong clean-up crew is detrimental to a low tech tank? Maybe they clean up a little too efficiently and the substrate never gets a chance to mature as well as it should and cannot support a good bacterial colony (which in turn supplies all the nutrients via metabolism of organic compounds).

As for feeding, as long as you don't see whole flakes still on the substrate by the *next day*, you should be alright according to Diana. You want to basically ensure you have quite a bit of mulm in the substrate to support the plants needs, and very small particles of decaying fish food and the extra fish excrement created by the extra food all helps.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

kimrin said:


> I'm having the worst problem in my 75 gallon. It's just got two 40 watt strips so it's barely over 1wpg. The main plants in it are Wendtii Brown, an Amazon sword, Jungle Val and Green Hygro. I also had some Tropica Sunset hygro which has refused to grow or thrive in either tank so I'm giving up on that. Also giving up on dwarf sag, never grew, always pale and tenellus which grew initially and then went bad. I have marsilea also which probably just needs more light then it gets.


1wpg...yeah, i'm surprised you can keep vals and green hygro alive. They really need more light than you're providing them.
You likely have low potassium and iron. I also saw no mention of your nitrate and phosphate levels. You need to test those, because algae is caused by a nutrient imbalance.


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## kimrin (Feb 21, 2005)

yep, the green hygro would really surprise you. I had it in a tank with only a half a wpg on a 24" high tank and it not only maintained but very,very slowly grew. Of course then I upgraded the light and it grew much faster. 

on the Vals... my general hardness is medium hard but it's not due to calcium carbonate as my Kh barely makes 3dGH in that tank. Maybe I'll throw in a little aragonite to bring the calcium up slowly. I've got room to do that without harming any fish since my ph is only around 7.2.

I can get a fert that has potassium and iron in it. Can't remember the brand but I had some before. I'll start adding that. Do you think it will increase algae? Also does feeding the water column help the root feeders like swords? Should I just stuff LOTS of tabs under it? I put two or three under it and it hasn't helped. I thought the flourite added iron but I guess not. I wonder if I should stop adding the phosphorus and nitrogen supplements? 

I dont' have a test for phosphorus. I should recheck my nitrates but in the past they have always been nil. The plants must be absorbing every last bit of it. That's why I started adding the Flourish nitrogen. It seems to me like there are a lot of fish in the tank but apparently there aren't enough to support the plants!

I was also remembering a tip I saw somewhere. Since I'm not feeling thrilled about trying to change out the substrate to soil. What if I used ice trays and made "mud cubes" and then pushed them down into the substrate. I wonder if it would add enough soil to be beneficial? Ever heard of that?


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## ThatNewGuy (Sep 8, 2004)

I think Flourish makes little pyramid shaped root tabs that help. I use them form my radican and they really seemed to make it happy. 

Later, I added an inch of gravel and added some laterite before dumping on the new layer. This seemed to help also.


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## aquabillpers (Nov 28, 2003)

Hi, Kim,

Maybe my experience will help.

I have a 20 gallon, 2wpg tank set up with a soil substrate under 2 - 3 mm gravel. For about five months it was fine, then it began to decline. The hygrophila, which was 1/3 of the tank, started to die and hair algae began to grow in abundance. The rooted plants - crypts, E. tennellus, vals - continued to do well, although they were cloaked in the algae.

After checking I found that the nitrates and phosphates were approaching zero ppm. The tank contained about 50 small guppies and, I assume, they just weren't producing enough food for the fast-growing plants. I started dosing nitrates and phosphates and clearing out the hair algae and it is recovering. However, I still have to dose a little every 2 or 3 weeks to keep the nutrient levels up.

I suggest that you first get a handle on your nitrates and phosphates before you start adding nutrients, and dose as required. Further (although I have never used them), try adding nutrient tablets near the roots of your plants. (These should have been made specifically for aquarium use.) Then, if you could find a way to add little more lighti, your life would be easier.

Be sure not to overdose nutrients in a low light tank unless you like algae. 

I hope that this is of some help. Please keep us informed.

Bill


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## BluSponge (Apr 2, 2006)

This seemed as good a time as any to resusitate this thread, as I'm led to a similar question in the low tech forums.

I dosed my tank for the first time with Flourish Nitrogen last week, according to Tom Barr's Non-CO2 Method article (about 4ml). Previously, my AP Nitrates test registered 0 nitrates in the water. An hour after the test, the result was still 0.

Judging from other information found hereabouts, it looks as though the desired range for Nitrates in a planted tank is 5-10ppm. To bring a 55 gallon tank into that range, would require dosing 13.75 ml of KNO3 ((.05v)n=m, with v being tank volume, n=desired ppm, and m=dosage in ml). But that's likely for a tank running on CO2.

Most of the new growth on my swordplant and my aponogeton is torn or (in the case of the latter) riddled with holes, suggesting either a nutriant deficiency or that my water is too hard (Ph 7.8, GH 1dGH, KH 4dKH).

So all this begs the question: What is the preferred sustained Nitrate level of a low tech (non CO2) tank?

Thanks!


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## aquabillpers (Nov 28, 2003)

Hi, Tom,

I use KNO3 to dose nitrates, but Seachem's Nitrogen is fine also, just a bit more expensive.

If you are certain that your nitrate test kit is accurate, just keep dosing until you get to the desired level. Allow a day or two between doses. If you are not confident that your test kit is accurate, replace it. I use the API kit. It is adequate at normal nitrate levels. 

Be sure that you have enough phosphate in the water. NO3 to PO4 ratios of 7 to 1 to about 10 to 1 are good targets. For example, if the NO3 level is 14 PPM, PO4 levels should be about 1.4 to 2.0 PPM.

Good luck!

Bill


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## BluSponge (Apr 2, 2006)

Thanks, Bill.

My Nitrate kit isn't that old. But I may drop some cash on a better test just to compare. I did check my phosphate levels and I'm registering about 1ppm. So technically, I should be trying to get my Nitrates in the 10ppm level. I'll try dosing my nitrates a bit more and see if that has an effect (there's another post in a thread out there where a guy had to dose essentially half a bottle of Seachem Nitrogen to get to the 10-20ppm zone ). I'm thinking once these seachem bottles have been used up, I'm moving to dry ferts. But that should take awhile with the low tech approach, even when supplimenting with Excel.

Appreciate the help.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Couple of ideas...

Once you are done with the liquid ferts, use dry KNO3, half a teaspoon will add around 10 ppm to your tank (considering actual volume).

I would not keep dosing to satisfy the test kit. If you know you have pure KNO3, and calculate the dosing correctly, then you WILL add a certain level to the tank, even if the test kit doesn't show it.

As for PO4, I am for lower levels... IME 0.5 ppm is more than enough for a low light, no CO2 setup.

Your water is not too hard, but it might be too soft. 1 dGH is very low, so your plants might be experiencing symptoms of Ca and/or Mg deficiency. Is your water running through a water softener?

Holes in leaves can be caused by nutrient deficiencies (potassium - affects more the older leaves) or - surprise - by various leaf-eating animals. Snails, plecos, bushynoses, various cichlids, all enjoy ripping a piece out of the free salad bar.


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## BluSponge (Apr 2, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> Once you are done with the liquid ferts, use dry KNO3, half a teaspoon will add around 10 ppm to your tank (considering actual volume).


That's the plan now.



> I would not keep dosing to satisfy the test kit. If you know you have pure KNO3, and calculate the dosing correctly, then you WILL add a certain level to the tank, even if the test kit doesn't show it.


My nitrate kit is bad. Either that, or Seachem's Nitrogen sup has no nitrogen in it (5 ml pure registered 0 ppm nitrates).



> As for PO4, I am for lower levels... IME 0.5 ppm is more than enough for a low light, no CO2 setup.


I just picked up a PO4 test, so yeah, I'm going to leave that alone for awhile. Right now, I'm working on the assumption that all is well in the nitrates/phosphates department, if a bit high. The plants are growing, but so are the diatoms. 



> Your water is not too hard, but it might be too soft. 1 dGH is very low, so your plants might be experiencing symptoms of Ca and/or Mg deficiency. Is your water running through a water softener?


My water is actually around 4 dKH and 13 dGH. And that was after mixing in 10 gallons of RO water. My Ph (if I can trust my kit) is around 7.8. I don't think softness is my problem. Word seems to be mixed on what high GH does to plants, and how high it has to be to do it.



> Holes in leaves can be caused by nutrient deficiencies (potassium - affects more the older leaves) or - surprise - by various leaf-eating animals. Snails, plecos, bushynoses, various cichlids, all enjoy ripping a piece out of the free salad bar.


That's what I figured, so I added a dose of Flourish today with the excel treatment. I don't expect to have to add that more than once a month. Now I'm going to sit back and watch to see what happens.

It COULD be the fish, but since most of the holes are on new growth (and especially my aponogeton bulb, which looks like someone took a machine gun too it), I'm thinking its a deficiency. I thought I'd take a gamble on Flourish rather than just supping iron as some of the older growth on my crypt lutea is turning bronzish.


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