# lower leaves falling off cant figure out why



## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I have read plenty of info that say's the lower leaves of stem plants fall off because of lack of light.

But I thought that pertained to stems that are packed tightly with other stems,
Here is a pic of my limnophila aromatica stems.








They are in the back left corner of the tank and there are only about 10 stems. To me it doesn't seem like the bunch is thick enough to block out the light. You can see how much light they get in the pic. So I am not sure why they would lose their lower leaves.

This is on a 17 gallon mr aqua tank with a single Sat plus pro strip mounted center on the top. I have the sat plus cranked almost 100%. dose ie. co2 injection, light is on for about 8 hours. 

Besides light, what else could it be?

Flow? This is a small tank with a eheim 2215 spraybar mounted at the back of the tank pointed down towards mid tank. Co2 is inline via a reactor.

I cant figure it out and it's difficult to get healthy, sustainable, growth out of the stems when the lower portion looks like this. My goal is to populate these stems until I get the coverage but it's also proving difficult.

Thanks,
iso


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

I was having issues with lower leaves dropping or being in poor condition with my latest tank while I was figuring out my dosing regime. 

What substrate do you sue? Dosing?


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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

How new are these stems? Have these already been replanted once, or are these new(ish) from the store/where ever you got them from?


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Substrate is Eco-complete. The stems are not new. They have been propagated from trimming of plants I purchased on the forum a while ago. Maybe April. So they have been acclimated for a long time. 

Iso


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi isonychia,

The obvious answer would be a lack of light at the lower levels, especially in a corner. When losing older leaves I look for symptoms such as a reddish/purple pigmentation along the underside leaf veins; this would indicate low phosphorus/phosphate levels. Remember that EI is estimative....how much potassium phosphate are you dosing?


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Yes, I experienced lower leaf loss when my tank was phosphorus-deficient as well. Eco complete doesn't have much in the way of macro nutrients so this isn't unexpected.

I've also seen lower leaf loss with drastically low CO2 (4 bps on a 120 gallon). Are you sure your reactor is working efficiently?


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Im not sure how much lack of light causes this. Not only have I seen it in my own tanks, but you can see tanks everywhere with stem groups so dense there's no way much light gets to the bottom areas....yet the bottoms stay perfectly healthy

My guess would be CO2 or nutrients in general due to poor flow.

You say the spray bar is pointed downward towards the middle? Is that the middle of the tank or the middle of the front wall? In either case, when the flow hits the opposite wall it could go in two or more directions, ie both downward and up. If it hits the bottom front corner then it's going to mostly roll around in that area. Another thing is if the intake is on the opposite end from the aromatica, this is going to make it even more difficult for the aromatica's corner to get good circulation 

Would be better to have it aimed more straight across the surface, so that it meets the front wall up high. It will then travel down the wall to the bottom of the tank, and then heads towards the back of the tank moving across the bottom. 

If it were possible to see the CO2 concentration in our tanks - let's say it was blue, like food coloring was being added - what we would see is some areas very dark blue, others lighter blue, and some areas not very blue at all.

Plants can only absorb what touches their leaves. That is why it's important to have a constant supply of new water that is rich in CO2 and nutrients to make contact with. 

You could do sort of a test if you have a drop checker. Put it down low back there in the middle of the aromatica, and see if it turns the same color as other areas of the tank.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Opare said:


> How new are these stems? Have these already been replanted once, or are these new(ish) from the store/where ever you got them from?


This is a good question, Not sure if this is what Opare was getting at but over time repeated trimming does wear out some plants and they don't bounce back as well, especially in less ideal growing areas like the bottom. 

Just a thought, could obviously be light/ferts as others have mentioned.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi isonychia,
> 
> The obvious answer would be a lack of light at the lower levels, especially in a corner. When losing older leaves I look for symptoms such as a reddish/purple pigmentation along the underside leaf veins; this would indicate low phosphorus/phosphate levels. Remember that EI is estimative....how much potassium phosphate are you dosing?


I was thinking maybe it was a "spread" issue in terms of my light. But I cant imagine a small 17 gallon tank and a single strip down the center does not offer sufficient spread. I have the Current Satellite Plus Pro set at 95% across all channels 8 hours a day (1pm -9pm). It sits right on the rim of the tank. 

Here is what I dose.

17 gallons
Macros (Tues, Thurs, Sunday)
1/8 tsp KN03
1/32 tsp KH2P04
1/32 tsp K2SO4

Micros (Mon, Wed, Friday)
1/32 tsp Plantex CSM+B
1/32 tsp Iron Chelate

Saturday is the rest day. 50% water change on Sunday.

Everything was doing well, most BBA subsided, but then I started getting some staghorn and hair algae, so I reduced my lighting to 95% from 100%.

I haven't really messed with the dosing amounts because I didn't think I severely increased my plant mass, so I kept it as is.

iso

Bump:


Axelrodi202 said:


> Yes, I experienced lower leaf loss when my tank was phosphorus-deficient as well. Eco complete doesn't have much in the way of macro nutrients so this isn't unexpected.
> 
> I've also seen lower leaf loss with drastically low CO2 (4 bps on a 120 gallon). Are you sure your reactor is working efficiently?


My drop checker reads light green and I have the needle valve set just below fish stress. I don't think I am wrong about that (needle valve setting being high enough) because at the next notch up on the dial I gassed my fish ( a few months ago) because I added too much water after a water change and reduced surface agitation through the Koralia powerhead. So I can only assume I am that close to max.

iso



burr740 said:


> Im not sure how much lack of light causes this. Not only have I seen it in my own tanks, but you can see tanks everywhere with stem groups so dense there's no way much light gets to the bottom areas....yet the bottoms stay perfectly healthy
> 
> My guess would be CO2 or nutrients in general due to poor flow.
> 
> ...


Here is a full tank shot. 










Visually it's a disaster...LOL I had a visual plan (scape) in the beginning but things slowly deteriorated. But thats what happens when I have been battling algae, trimming, removing rocks, cleaning, replanting, learning etc. At this point the tank is just set up to try and GROW things properly, avoid algae and LEARN.
You can see how I have it set up. My guess is the water out of the spray bar in the back is hitting 2/3 down the front of the glass.

The big rock on the left was added about 2 weeks ago as I was attempting to reconstruct the tank as I originally had it planned. 

I understand the premise of flow, but I guess since it is such a small tank I didn't think it was possible to have a lack of nutrients/Co2 anywhere with the eheim 2215 no matter how I set up the in/out and powerhead. When I first hooked it up after I purchase it, I didn't think it was that strong at all, but everyone told me it was more than enough.

Besides changing the orientation of the in/out is it possible I need another powerhead in this small tank? It seems like a lot to add another powerhead. The one top left is simply there to add surface agitation since I cant use the spraybar as I assume I would be gassing off too much co2 with the cerges reactor system.

iso


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Definitely doesnt need any more powerheads lol, but I think the arrangement could be improved upon. 

The powerhead should compliment the flow coming out of the spray bar, helping it move in the same general direction, not colliding with it. 

The powerhead is catching the spraybar flow and pushing it, or a good bit of it, across the front part of the tank, back around to the intake. Essentially it's interfering. Pushing the flow away from probably the most demanding area of the tank, which is that back left corner with all the stems. The pile of rocks isnt helping matters.

Will the spray bar fit on the end? Having it on the right side would be better than what you have now. Flow would travel across the top, down the left side, and back across the bottom towards the intake. May not even need the powerhead, or it could also go on the right side, just under the spray.

Or could leave the spraybar as it is and just move the powerhead to the right side. At least this way it will be catching the flow and pushing it around towards the back left stem patch.

Obviously Im not there in person, if the aromatica leaves are swaying with current, then flow may not be an issue. Like you said it's a pretty small tank, but small tanks can have dead spots too. Dont worry about gassing off co2, get the flow right first. You can always increase the CO2 a bit if need be.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Burr, I moved my DC to the back left and it turned light green.

The only reason I have the powerhead in the tank was to create the surface ripple I read was so important. Without it I get the film buildup on the surface. If I use the spraybar to create that ripple I thought it would be counterproductive since the co2 is coming out of the spraybar. It would shoot out the holes and travel parallel to the surface. If I don't set it up parallel, I don't get any surface agitation. I figured I would gas off a lot this way AND not get enough CO2 into the water column, especially near the bottom of the tank. So I figured the spraybar mounted with the holes pointing down about 45deg and the powerhead for my surface agitation. I am not explaining this to dismiss your suggestions, just explaining my thought process and reasons for setting it up this way.

I don't like the powerhead in there but I figured I didn't have a choice since the co2 is inline and I wasn't sure what else to use for surface agitation.

I can definitely try moving things around.

One note: I would say I get the worst growth and mulm buildup in the back left and back right corners. I figured back right, near the intake, would not have mulm, but for some reason it does and the intake is very close to the substrate. It's very odd.

I would really like to get this sorted out. Now I have to go in and trim the stems to get rid of the bare bases and replant. But then in a few weeks they will just end up dropping leaves and I am the cycle again not being able to prune the tops and get new shoots, thus increasing stem mass to trim and propagate.

iso


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Can move the spray bar up a bit, and twist it on the hose so that the flow from the holes is pointing upwards to create surface rippling.
Does CO2 come on with the light's ? 
If so,I might place it on timer to come on one hour before light's.
Would watch fishes while trying this to ensure no discomfort .


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Mulm build up is a dead giveaway that you arent getting much delivery to that area. If it's building up around the intake then the filter may not be strong enough.

Try the spray bar parallel to the surface, or aimed up a little. The flow will go straight down the front wall, and then towards the back along the bottom - as long as the powerhead doesnt interfere, and the filter is strong enough. 

If the CO2 is dissolved well, surface agitation from the spray bar wont be much different than any other surface agitation, as far as off gassing.

If you must use the powerhead, Id put it on the right side so it could move water towards the back left, instead of toward the back right like it does now. This alone might solve the problem.

Try to get enough current back there so that the aromatica's lower leaves gently sway


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## Fissure (Jun 29, 2014)

Have had the exact same issue with that species. Flow was directed towards my plants and swaying pretty much. Eventually the lower parts would loose their leaves and finally the stem rot at substrate level. Same thing over and over when replanting the tips. Was using my led build still there was were little light penetrating to the lower part of the stems. Only solution as I see it is to attack it with light from angles but this is ofc pretty hard in a corner. Eventually grew tired of them and tossed them. Shame it is really beatiful when it turns to that blood-red/pinkish color, smells nice as well 

Edit:
Had a pic in my led thread, kinda miss them now :'(

Limnophila hippuridoides & Limnophila aromatica mixed.









Mine was much more tightly packed than yours so me experience could be a bad comparison. What ferts are you using? I think they have some pretty high needs being big (your looks kinda skinny) and fast growing stem plants. My stems would get 5-10 mm thick at the substrate.

Edit2: Your HC mat looks really sweet btw, wish I could grow HC like that. Always ends in failure.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

Thanks for all the info.

The move I made with the powerhead on the right did not make much of a difference.
I just did another trim of the LA and had to toss the bottom 3" as they were bare again.

I am going to try making a shorter spraybar and moving it the the right (current one is too long to fit on the side), on the same side as the intake, and see if that makes a difference with the newly planted tops of the LA.

I have probably said this before, but this is a finicky hobby. In a year I have battled almost every type of algae. At varying points things started looking better and then the environment changes and I run into a new problem or a different algae or plant problem. I think of my tank as a delicate environment. Whenever I have to do anything, clean the filter, trimming, replanting etc I expect the tank to react and change, not always for the better. Then I sit there and try and figure out what I did to cause the negative response.

My plant experience has been varied.

• Monte carlo is easy to grow in my tank

• Fissidens Fontanus is easy to grow but I cant keep the green hair algae off of it.

• S Repens hates my tank. It grows so slow and barely does anything. I cant get it to increase in overall plant mass.

• Limnophila Aromatica: Some stems grow and get thick, color up red/purple, but the bottom half suffers. Other stems seem to struggle and stay thin, which makes no sense. Some stems grow fast once they seem to get thick and mature while others are slow to do anything.

• Blyxa Japonica doesn't really do anything. Sometimes it seems to be growing and then it just lifts out of the substrate and the roots are gone from the plant. Other times it just sits there and doesn't grow.

• Ludwigia Repens grows like a weed. When I had it in the tank, it increased the plant mass so much I think it created the best overall environment I ever had. BUT it was drowning out the light so much it started to affect the LA. It also took up so much real estate (this is a 17 gallon mr aqua tank) I couldn't find room to propagate the LA or the s repens to increase their mass. So I cut it back and removed a bunch to make some room. This was one of those "changes" that I made that caused a negative reaction. It caused a bloom in green hair algae, at least I believe that was the result.

Anyway, I will keep on trying to sort this out.

Thanks,
iso


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## HaeSuse (Aug 18, 2016)

@isonychia - that is what keeping a planted tank is all about. The constant battle with all of these varying factors is what makes it so fun. And, so infuriating.


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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I am still having the lower leaf loss problem.

I moved the spray bar to the top right-side across the side of the tank pointed slightly downward. In addition I added a small powerhead bottom right to further push the water to the left side where the LA stems are.

I even tried adding some root tabs under a few stems as a test and I didn't notice a difference.

I also increased tank temperature from 74deg to 79deg, no difference.

I don't know what else to try. 

BTW: I gave it a few months for those changes to kick in.

Maybe it's my light, even though I keep thinking it's plenty strong. (I don't own a par meter) It's almost at max strength.

My substrate depth is about 2.5-3".

Could my tap water cause this? Maybe one of it's parameters? Hardness?

Dose more ferts?

Here's a recent pic. Because these LA stems keep failing at the lower 3", I never have a fully healthy balanced tank. There is always a constant source of unhealthy plant matter due to lower leaf loss/degradation. Thus I always have a constant source of BBA and Green Hair Algae.


















iso


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## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

What are your concentration targets? I dose 10 ppm of No3, 3ppm of PO4 and 10 ppm of K, 3x per week, and I need to uproot and replant the tops every two weeks. They grow so fast that they almost never grow roots. CO2 is always high, as I do not have fishes.

As Burr said, that spray bar on the right would be much better. You always saw it or buy the expandable one, also from eheim.

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## isonychia (Nov 19, 2013)

I don't have a concentration target on the macros or micros.

I just dose per EI chart for my tank size.

I have tested them intermittently but because the test kits are not accurate I don't give the readings much thought. Plus the color chart on the API cards are not accurate enough of a system to have a specific number. I did a calibration of the test kits and then tested everything and my levels were good, so I can only assume I am giving plenty of ferts.

How do you measure 3ppm of PO4?

Is this a calculation of dose and water volume or are you actually getting a specific reading from a test kit of 3?

What test kit are you using to get such specific measurements?

For examples on the API card 2 is a light teal color and 5 is a very dark blue green color. So 2 and 3 are in some mystery zone color value.

I did take Burr's advice and I mounted the spray bar top right on the side. Which is the same side as the intake. And the powerhead is mounted bottom right under the spraybar.

Maybe I need to investigate my par reading on the light. Or maybe it's my water.

Thanks,
iso


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## ed.junior (Feb 2, 2017)

I made a solution that per dose gives me 3ppm of PO4, and I dose that 3x per week. So yeah, calculation of dose/tank volume.

I do not test my water, at least not anymore. From time to time I test my tap, just to check seasonality effects, pH changes, hardness, etc.

I always suggest that people know what they are dosing, and how much. I really do not like the whole measuring with spoons, but I understand it is practical. Regardless of that, try and see what concentrations you have been dosing. And do not forget CO2. A 1.2 to 1.4 pH drop should be fine. 

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## Opare (Sep 9, 2015)

Hmm yeah I would do some investigation into your light a bit more. It is a pretty common fixture so you may be able to find PAR readings for it floating around on the internet.


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## DigityDog70 (Jan 20, 2017)

In addition to a lack of light and inability for photosynthesis to occur, lower growth is also older growth and it would be normal at some point for the lower leaves to die off as the plants grow. Many species drop the lower growth during the life of the plant.


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## dru (Mar 9, 2013)

If you are ready to eradicate the green hair algae (spirogyra) in the fissidens, algaefix will take care of it. I had the exact same issue with Blyxa, I don't think it likes a lot of flow


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