# Brand new CO2 tank valve is stuck...? (this is kinda an emergency)



## Cheeseybacon (Feb 13, 2005)

You sure it came filled with C02 to begin with? I was always under the assumption that most C02 tanks had to be shipped empty. It's possible that the initial readings and bubbles you saw were leftover gases just hanging around inside the bottle, and upon opening up the regulator sufficiently you simply evacuated the last of what little gas was in there to begin with. What was the inital reading on the tank pressure gauge before everything crapped out?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

You have got a lot of issues :tongue: 

An empty or filled tank should not be hot or cold unless it was just filled or someone releaved a lot of pressure just for fun. When filling, tanks get hot, and to counter that they are cooled. In any case, when getting the tank delivered, it should just have ambient temp.

It is possible that the tank has emptied itself during shipping, and when you opened the tank valve what you heard was the last sigh. Unlikely, but possible...

Now for the stuck tank valve, only thing I can imagine is that you closed it really tight... try to open it slowly with some help of a tool (I usually use a leather belt to move something roundish). Make sure the regulator knob is not screwed in or you might blow that low pressure gauge.

Hope things work out...


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Consider calling AP.com and find out the empty weight of the same size tank. And then ask for the full weight of same size tank. Then weigh your tank and see if you have any gas. I'm guessing it was near empty. BTW, once I did the same thing - not opening the main reg flow valve - and loud shreaking sounds emitted and I immediately shut it down, fixed my error and no damage was done... all works fine. 

FWIW, the JBJ auto adjusts the high pressure, which I think is worth the extra price, as I now own a JBJ and a Milwaukee and prefer the JBJ for that reason.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Betowess said:


> Consider calling AP.com and find out the empty weight of the same size tank. And then ask for the full weight of same size tank. Then weigh your tank and see if you have any gas. I'm guessing it was near empty. BTW, once I did the same thing - not opening the main reg flow valve - and loud shreaking sounds emitted and I immediately shut it down, fixed my error and no damage was done... all works fine.
> 
> FWIW, the JBJ auto adjusts the high pressure, which I think is worth the extra price, as I now own a JBJ and a Milwaukee and prefer the JBJ for that reason.


I agree with everyone so far. I don't think it was shipped full unless it was supposed to be...then of course its considered a hazardous material...and should have come with a huge diamond label with a picture of a gas cylinder on it. 

Also, check your tank for the "stamp" that should be the hydrostatic pressure test...below it or around it you should see the "tare" weight. That is without any gas...then weigh it on any home scale.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Wasserpest said



> When filling, tanks get hot, and to counter that they are cooled. In any case, when getting the tank delivered, it should just have ambient temp.


What? And can you point me to the source of this information? I have seen a lot of CO2 tanks get filled and have yet to see one get hot. In fact I see frost forming on them as soon as the gas starts getting pumped in. Pressurized liquid CO2 is *COLD*.

This is not an attack. IMHO it's just bad information. Please cite sources. This goes against almost 30 years experience in seeing CO2 cylinders being filled.


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## Biznatch (Mar 26, 2005)

It does sound right about it getting hot when filling. I know that when air is compressed it gets hot and gets hotter the more it's compressed. Thats why turbo charged cars need an intercooler. I don't know for sure if that applies to Co2 but I wouldn't be suprised if it did. I also know when you release the pressure from a tank of say.....Nitrous  that it gets very cold and actually froze to my carpet in about 30 minutes of um....use.


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## UprightJoe (May 13, 2005)

Pressure/Volume=Temperature

As pressure decreases and volume stays the same, temperature decreases. As a tank is emptied - it should get cold. I'm sure most people have experienced this at some point with aerosol cans or whatnot.

As tank pressure increases it SHOULD get warm. This would certainly work with an air compressor or similar device. However, things don't work that way when filling one tank from another. They essentially become once vessel so the volume is increased and the pressure is decreased resulting in a temperature loss.

The gas itself isn't really cold, it's the changes in volume and/or pressure that cause the momentary temperature swings. If a tank is shut off, it should be room temperature just like anything else.

Oh, and all of this is based in my limited ability to recall high school physics so there may be other factors at work as well.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

You are all missing the point here. CO2 tanks are filled with LIQUID CO2. And to be a liquid it need to be compressed. Once they start filling your tank the CO2 starts to boil off and absorbs heat like there is no tomorrow. It's pretty obvious that NONE of you have watched a tank being filled or have been handed a tank RIGHT after it's filled. They have FROST on them people. Even in the middle of summer they are covered with FROST.


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## UprightJoe (May 13, 2005)

Um, reread my post. I said that when you fill a tank from another tank the temperature drops. Yes, it gets cold. 

I've never seen a co2 tank filled but I've seen many a tank of propane filled. It can't be all that different.


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## UprightJoe (May 13, 2005)

Here's a fairly decent reference for ya if you're interested.

http://hypertextbook.com/physics/thermal/gas-laws/

It's basic stuff but you can find plenty of more sophisticated references by searching for "Pressure Volume Temperature Laws" on google. Surprisingly, a lot of the paintball/scuba related sites have tons of good info due to the fact that they're hobbies that are completely dependent upon pressurised gas.


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## Opiesilver (Nov 3, 2003)

Yep, we do have filled 2.5 and 5 lb tanks shipped anywhere in the lower 48 states. There is an extra haz mat charge built into the price of the tank for the extra shipping cost for filled tanks. All the tanks we ship are brand new polished aluminum tanks.

Rex is 100% correct on the condition of the tanks. When they are filled it's with liquid CO2. It's already in a compressed state so the tank cannot get warm from filling it. If it arrive warm then somewhere in shipping it was exposed to a lot of heat.

The valve may be stuck due to the quick pressure loss and frost forming in the valve when you shut it. The valve should defrost itself as the air will warm it up slowly over the next hrs and it will be a functioning valve again. If not please let us know immediately.

Before you again try to open the valve up make sure that you have the regulator valve in the open position which is somewhere in the middle between having it tightly closed and the knob loose in your hand. Next open the tank valve, you may have to turn it hard as the metal in the valve will have expanded where it warmed back up after you last closed it. Take a look at the high pressure gauge on the regulator. What does it read?


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

see my reply to your duplicate post in the General Planted Tank section. I explained exactly what you need to do to get a correct flow.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Rex Grigg said:


> Pressurized liquid CO2 is *COLD*.


And really cold CO2 is dry ice...

To make dry ice, you start with a high pressure container full of liquid carbon dioxide. When you release the liquid carbon dioxide from the tank, the expansion of the liquid and the high-speed evaporation of carbon dioxide gas cools the remainder of the liquid down to the freezing point, where it turns directly into a solid. If you have ever seen a carbon dioxide fire extinguisher in action you have seen this carbon dioxide snow form in the nozzle. You compress the carbon dioxide snow to create a block of dry ice.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Sorry if I spread bad information. I have not filled CO2 tanks personally, so I should shut up :tongue: but my local Airgas guys told me they prefer to fill tanks in the mornings when it is cool since (something in the process) gets hot. But they probably didn't mean the tanks, maybe the pump that supplies the CO2.


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## jhoetzl (Feb 7, 2005)

Hmm, if I have it correct, dry ice (which actually used to be or is a trademarked name for frozen co2 gas AFAIK), is just that, frozen gas.

The freezing temperature at normal sea level air pressure is -78.5 degrees C (-109.3 degrees F). 
So, if you have a co2 bottle of co2 near your tank, and you somehow freeze that liquid/gas co2 combo in the tank, wouldn't the bottle make a nice mortar round?


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## UprightJoe (May 13, 2005)

The state of matter for co2 (or any gas for that matter) is determined by its temperature and pressure. If you know the temperature and pressure, you know whether it's a solid, liquid, or gas (unless it's at the triple point where it could be any of the three).

Here's a crappy chart showing the relationship for co2:

http://www.co2clean.com/snowform.htm

I've seen a prettier one out there but I can't find it now.


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## UprightJoe (May 13, 2005)

Oh, and for a constant pressure, liquid co2 would always be warmer than solid co2. That's assuming a constant pressure though. 

What's wicked cool is how they MAKE dry ice. They fill a canister with co2 until it is high enough pressure to form a liquid. They bleed off as much excess heat as possible. Then they let the gas loose. As the pressure falls, and volume increases, the temperature drops. Eventually it gets cold enough that some of the remaining co2 freezes into a solid as snow. They then just pack that together.

Wicked clever - they use co2 to make itself colder so that it freezes.


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