# New Substrate Anybody tried it?



## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

Has anyone had any experience with AQUARIUMPLANTS.COM's own Exclusive: Freshwater Planted Aquarium Substrate. I'm not afiliated with this company in any way but it would seem to me that a company that prides itself on selling aquarium plants would have a pretty good idea what it takes to make them grow. It also seems that one five gallon bucket that will cover 4 square feet at a depth of 3" for about $60 [including shipping to Cape Cod] is pretty reasonable. I am setting up a 30 gallon high this winter so it will be a while before I can offer my two cents worth, but was wondering if anybody had anything good or bad to say about this product.

AquariumPlants.com's own: Freshwater Plant Substrate


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...8-new-black-substrate-aquariumplants-com.html

welcome to PTF :icon_surp 
try using search next time.


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## JustOneMore21 (May 23, 2006)

There was quite a discussion on it in the link provided above.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I still question the math about how much it will cover. But I have always been interested in numbers.


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## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

*Too much about nothing*

Thanks to all for the "Search" tips but the link to that thread raises only one question and offers zero answers. The Question " How do you pack 1728 cubic inches into a plastic bucket that has 1155 cubic inches of capacity?" [Kind of reminds me of the old Blivot joke]......A valid inquiry to say the least but offers little in the way of feedback. The multiple coin/substrate pix was worthy of a smile! [Thanks Yoink] Perhaps when I receive my order, I can answer this "magic question". But it seems I am on my own for the rest.

My reasoning for asking the same question again was threefold. 1.]The original thread was three weeks old and that latest reply was over two weeks old and 2.] It did not give me any useful information. and 3.] The thread was closed.

I thought the question deserved another try and was hoping that this time it didn't end up insulting intelligent people looking for a little help.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Welcome to you, CapeCodVivarium!

Your reasons for asking the questions were valid. Being told to do a search and directed to a closed thread was not very helpful. Particularly on your very first post here on TPT.

The question does deserve to be asked again. If I had some experience with the product, I'd give you an answer. Until then, the product is pretty new, so I imagine it will take some time for the information on it to come filtering in.

Mike


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## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

Momotaro said:


> Welcome to you, CapeCodVivarium!
> 
> Your reasons for asking the questions were valid. Being told to do a search and directed to a closed thread was not very helpful. Particularly on your very first post here on TPT.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the kind words, Mike.

I just amazes me that some of the more experienced posters were so negative and nasty, demanding information about a new product and comparing the $35 purchase of aquarium substrate to a $25,000 purchase of a new car. Does it seem that our priorities are a little mixed up here. To think that the lack of posted information about this new product will make or break its success is pretty short sighted. It also seems rediculous to think that a product that has been on the market for all of a month would have any independent testing statistics or mineral contents available to publish. This is not a life or death issue. We're talking about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt. Let's get real here people.

I guess I am guilty of expecting any member feedback for a product that is this new. [my bad] The really sad thing is, even if I really like this product, I will have nothing else to compare it to. 

Hopefully, over time, some of the experienced members of this forum with share their experiences with this product and others will learn to keep their sour grapes to themselves.

Thanks for letting me vent. Happy Holidays!

Jon


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Welcome on board, CapeCodVivarium.

I'm the person that bought a bucket of the new substrate and all I can tell you is that it appears to be the same material as Soilmaster Select/Turface Pro League. Specifically, a fracted, gray, Acryllite clay.

Here are the pictures I posted of the camparison between it and Turface Pro League...

















The linked-to thread was locked (by me) because in the end it was no longer about the quality of the product, but rather focusing on the business practices of the vendor.

As for the material itself, I can tell you from personal experience that fracted Acryllite clay (regardless of who's selling it) is a great substrate save for the fact that it is very light weight so can be blown around easily by fish or water currents. It's weight also can make planting larger stem plants a challenge as the material often isn't heavy enough to hold them down unless done in a deep bed of it (3-4").

The material has a high CEC rating so is good for absorbing nutrients and keeping them available for the plant's roots. It has little or no Fe (as opposed to Laterite or Flourite).

Where the original thread got derailed was on the fact that you can obtain Soilmaster Select/Turface Pro League for far less at a Lesco distributor (for Soilmaster Select) or at a lawn and turf maintenance supplier (for Turface Pro League). Both are used in the maintenance of baseball fields as an infield ammendment so calling the local parks and recreation department may offer up a lead as to here it can be obtained in your area.

In any event, should you be unable to locate a local source for Soilmaster or Turface, you now have Aquariumplants.com as a convinient online source for the same material.

In actual use, you'll be best served by dusting the bottom of the tank with some finely ground peat moss, then adding a healthy amount of mulm, collected from an established tank, to the substrate...the same process used for any non-ADA-type substrate.


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## bharada (Mar 5, 2004)

Just for reference, here's a picture of my 120g tank that uses Turface Pro League as a substrate...









You really can't see much of the substrate with all the plants growing in it...but that's kind of the whole point, isn't it? :biggrin:


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## JustOneMore21 (May 23, 2006)

Beautiful tank Bharada!

I will be using the AP substrate for a new tank I'm setting up. After hearing all the good stuff about Soilmaster and Turface and since this is compared to them, I think I'm going to give it a try. I'm an online shopper, so even if I was able to locate some Soilmaster, I dont know when I'd have time to go get it. So paying for the AP stuff plus shipping is fine with me, as I like the idea of having stuff delivered to my house.  I'll have to post my experience with it as well, although the only substrate I'll have to compare it to are regular gravel and Eco-Complete, which really aren't good comparisons, since the AP stuff is different than those. Anyhow, maybe more people will use it and post their experiences and thoughts.

Welcome to PT by the way CCV.  There is so much info here!


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## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

bharada said:


> Welcome on board, CapeCodVivarium.
> 
> I'm the person that bought a bucket of the new substrate and all I can tell you is that it appears to be the same material as Soilmaster Select/Turface Pro League. Specifically, a fracted, gray, Acryllite clay.
> 
> ...


Thanks to both Kristen and Bill for the welcome!!

In your opinion, Bill, with the knowledge that the AP substrate seems to be lighter and thus more difficult to set plants in, would adding a thin layer [maybe about 1 inch] of gravel over the AP substrate be a prudent idea? Theoetically this would also prevent fish and currents from blowing the subtrate around.


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## <Frawg> (Nov 26, 2006)

OK - I just googled and found there is a "Lesco" distributor in Portland, ME (where I work).

I tried the "Search Products" for "Turface Pro League" with no success. Can someone tell me exactly what I'm looking/asking for here?

Thanks very much,

Scott
Sanford, Maine


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

CapeCodVivarium said:


> would adding a thin layer [maybe about 1 inch] of gravel over the AP substrate be a prudent idea?


Substrates will tend to mix over time. Especially if one is heavier than the other. People in the know have told me a layer of Tahitian Moon Sand (inert black substrate by Caribsea) on the bottom will provide ease of planting (sand is wonderful to plant in), however an all sand substrate can be bad for roots. 

Try to find a substrate that matches color if you do decide to mix. 

You may wish to read this. Rex's Guide to Planted Tanks 

It is invaluable information for newbs.


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

<Frawg> said:


> OK - I just googled and found there is a "Lesco" distributor in Portland, ME (where I work).
> 
> I tried the "Search Products" for "Turface Pro League" with no success. Can someone tell me exactly what I'm looking/asking for here?
> 
> ...


On Lesco.com you need to search for "Soilmaster Select".


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## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

CapeCodVivarium said:


> Thanks for the kind words, Mike.
> 
> I just amazes me that some of the more experienced posters were so negative and nasty, demanding information about a new product. Does it seem that our priorities are a little mixed up here. To think that the lack of posted information about this new product will make or break its success is pretty short sighted. It also seems rediculous to think that a product that has been on the market for all of a month would have any independent testing or mineral contents available to publish. This is not a life or death issue. We're talking about a 5 gallon bucket of dirt. Let's get real here people.
> 
> ...


Vent on man, but think before you post. Many members who posted in that thread and looked through the thread are very experienced and what their thoughts are well taken here. It is harsh for your 4th post here be that of slightly bashing our members. 

Furthermore, the notion that they didnt provide any mineral data is like a food company releasing a new food product and saying they will release the nutritional value later. Comon, they new that when they released the product they would be dealing with advanced aquatic hobbiests, not average everyday fish keepers. If we want to buy a product with no info we buy soilomaster select at half the price. 

On another note, I think you need to earn the right over here is tell us to keep sourgrapes to ourselves especially since you didnt even post in the origonal thread nor were you a member here at the time of the thread. One way to not be liked here is to make such rants about members here in your first couple of threads. 

Oh, by the way. Have a very merry jolly happy holidays. Drink lots of egg nog ( I know I am :-0 ) Thanks for letting me vent. Ok ty by by now


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## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

Ryzilla said:


> Vent on man, but think before you post. Many members who posted in that thread and looked through the thread are very experienced and what their thoughts are well taken here. It is harsh for your 4th post here be that of slightly bashing our members.
> 
> Furthermore, the notion that they didnt provide any mineral data is like a food company releasing a new food product and saying they will release the nutritional value later. Comon, they new that when they released the product they would be dealing with advanced aquatic hobbiests, not average everyday fish keepers. If we want to buy a product with no info we buy soilomaster select at half the price.
> 
> ...


I thought plenty before I "vented". 

IMHO nobody and I mean NOBODY has the right to have a better than thou attitude. Correct me if I am wrong but there were more than just a few posts in the afore mentioned thread that were negative, closed-minded and downright snotty. I have been a Aquarium/Vivarium hobbiest for over 40 years and while I have only recently found this forum and posted a few times, I am insulted by ignorance and my opinion stands. 

To mention this one more time....I think we have our priorities a little mixed up. How can you comfortably compare something a person eats to an aquaruim substrate. And while it might be useful, [if you believe everything you read] aquiring the mineral composition of this product could likely cost the distributor way more that any profit margin from the sales of that product. What I see is a company that sells aquarium plants though the internet. Thay have found a source for a substrate that they have found to be an excellent choice to sustain and grow their plant products. They have decided to share this find with the rest of the aquarium world and people like you jump all over them. 

I say "Lighten up". A few of us will ultimately bite the bullet and try this new product. Some of us will have the ability to compare it to other products. Some might even share that knowledge. Over time, and for this reason only, the product will either sink or swim regardless of what it does or doesn't say on the package. 

For anyone, whether thay have 2 or 2000 posts on this forum to vilify a product based on the lack of available information is pompus, short-sighted and certainly not the type of person I would want any advice from.

Finally, I would agree with you about earning rights within this forum, but only if it is regarding advice and experience. My problem is with the people who complain just to hear themselves talk. Their diplomacy skills are lacking, are completly counterproductive and I assume not what the original administration of this forum had intended.


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## <Frawg> (Nov 26, 2006)

Thank you for the guidance - I'll have to stop by later this week and see if it's available in amounts less than one ton (how they advertise it on their site). 

s


Urkevitz said:


> On Lesco.com you need to search for "Soilmaster Select".


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## Blacksunshine (Oct 11, 2006)

a Mineral content listing would actually NOT be out of line. As that should have been the VERY first thing that the company gets when looking at a substrate to be marketed for aquatic usage that will also include plant and fish. 

I of course wouldnt expect them to be up to par with a company like Cariba Sea and be able to narrow down mineral content to a batch or bag. But reguardless this is basic info that should have been avalible LONG before the product was brought to market. 

considering the very close resemblance to SMS. I don't think the speculation around the product is out of line considering they are asking 2X the price. And the questions that arise from this speculation are also justified. 

What is disspointing is that the sponser does not feel the need to chime in and answer any questions that have come about due their new product.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

<Frawg> said:


> OK - I just googled and found there is a "Lesco" distributor in Portland, ME (where I work).
> 
> I tried the "Search Products" for "Turface Pro League" with no success. Can someone tell me exactly what I'm looking/asking for here?
> 
> ...


Here is the "soilmaster" in the charcoal color: http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=27&ItemNumber=083365 You should notice that you can have a bag delivered to the nearest distributer to you for no shipping cost, where you can pick it up for the $16 a bag cost.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

*Just a side note to the discussion......*



> What is disspointing is that the sponser does not feel the need to chime in and answer any questions that have come about due their new product.


Maybe some of you have not noticed (and it is possible that I am wrong), but Aquarium Plants does not sponsor TPT. I think they even took their banner out of rotation here. Most likely due to a disagreement I had with one of them a while ago, they have distanced themselves from TPT. You will find them busy on other sites, but you will not find them here. 

There are still other fine sponsors as well as fellow hobbyists who have continued their support of TPT who provide top notch plants and innovative, authentic dry goods.


Mike


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## RedIrocZ-28 (Oct 24, 2006)

CapeCodVivarium, you'll notice when you get into an ultra nerdy hobby like lots of these folks here that their attitudes are way out of whack when you ask them a question. Case and point, I asked another member if they had somthing that could be of use to me, and I was snapped at because he doesn't have time to honor my request, he's not getting PAID to do what I am asking. Fine... fair enough. They figure that you should know the specifics of your query already and therefore are actually annoyed by the fact that you're asking them a question.:eek5: Sad but true people. I find this forum to be one of the snootiest forums I have ever visited. Ever. I've been posting on message boards for over 7 years, Probably in the neighborhood of 50,000+ posts under my belt combined, I'm a moderator elsewhere for a car club forum thats rather large, and this forum and thirdgen.org have the most rejects on it. You're always told to search the archives or search old posts before you post. Well, wonderful idea to have a message board. Why not just dump the entire idea and make it a website that has a bunch of article links posted on it? I mean, if all the old info here is always correct, and there is no new info, why not just dissolve the message board entirely? Right? Right guys? 


The major problem with this message board is that everyone is told to use the search function always. Yet when I click on this link to come to this website, and I can see between 100 and 300 people browsing, there are never as many new posts made, like I have come to expect from the other message boards I browse based on active people and guests. I think its because everyone is snapped at to not post unless they have exhausted the search function. And therefore are not as likely to even make a post asking a question. Then they go elsewhere. I bet the sponsors appreciate this kind of response to posters that drives their potential customers away to other places around the net that they may not sponsor. 

Sorry to rant in your thread here buddy but I saw your frustration and needed to vent mine as well. I think I'll refrain from posting so much here from now on and probably move back over to aquariacentral.com as they seem to be nicer and more helpful. 

I'll offer a tip from one Moderator to another. "Search" is for general inquiry. Snapping at people when they are asking for specifics is a great way to get people to leave and never gome back. Perhaps some posters here need to learn that discussion was how the great thinkers of old like Socrates, Newton, et. al. got their message across- offered insight- built empires.

:thumbsdow


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## cherokeetestpilot (Dec 8, 2006)

So.....what was this thread about again. lol.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to trying this new substrate. I ordered some and it should arrive in a day or two. I have EC in my two other tank and plan on using the aquarium plants dot com substrate in my 75g that I'm setting up. Has anyone considered mixing a bit of eco complete in with this new substrate to help with the weight issue? I was thinking maybe a bit on top would work nice.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Welcome to the forum CapeCodVivarium. Sorry you got some ridiculous slams right out of the gate. Most the folks are really nice here, when they aren't drinking too much Eggnog.


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

Well said Red IrocZ-28. I've been a member here almost two years now, and attitudes toward peoples questions are ridiculous at times. While this is one of the sites I visit most, it is not the same as when I first signed up. I'm sure even then my questions asked had been answered a hundred times, but not once did I get the "use search function" reply. As I've posted elsewhere where it happened to me I say, "If you don't want to answer the question... then don't!" If your so knowledgeable as to what the question was asked, at least post a link to help the person out. Isn't that what this forum is for anyway?


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

*GO BUCKEYES!!!!*


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

All right DC !

RedIrocZ-28, I've noticed the tone you're referring to in the last 3 or 4 months. Hopefully it'll get better.

As for the AP substrate being light and possibly capping it, it was pointed out that different substrates will mix over time. In my limited experience this would depend somewhat on the individual tank and your husbandry practices. I have a small 10 gallon with Schultz which is a notoriously light substrate which I have capped with about an inch or so of gravel and it has been just fine. But - the gravel is a fine texture almost exactly the same size as the Schultz and since this is a low-tech tank with no stem plants in it there's not a lot of pulling and replanting going on. Of course if you're going to be always messing with it (tinker, tinker ! I save that for the 55,) it will indeed mix and that mixing would be much faster depending on your tinkering levels .


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

RedIrocZ-28, while I agree on some of your points, However, what you are saying is a bit overstated. You have some valid points, and I appreciate what you are saying, you are just a little over the top in presentation in my opinion.

Saying you are told to use the search function "always"? That is just not true. It isn't done every time. There _are_ times when directing someone to try the search function is appropriate, and times when it _is_ inappropriate. It has been happening a little bit as of late, but people are not "snapped at to not post unless they have exhausted the search function".

Sometimes people throw out "use the search" because they are too lazy to bother responding. In that instance, I (and everyone else I imagine) would prefer they say nothing. Telling a new member to do a search is just plain bad form. I don't care for that much either.

I do take exception with you saying "this forum and thirdgen.org have the most rejects on it". That is just an ugly thing to say. You actually moderate a forum, and would say something like that on another forum? Very odd if you ask me. There are so many good people here who help others out on daily basis. Calling them and everyone else rejects is really the wrong thing to do. 

Also, I have heard a lot of things about this place. "Snooty" certainly isn't one of them. 

I am thinking you were unfortunate enough to have had a bad experience here. For that I am sorry. However, to wield such a broad brush and paint every member as a reject and claim everyone is snapped at to use the "SEARCH" function is neither true or very fair.



Anthony said:


> it is not the same as when I first signed up.


It isn't the same site I signed up on a few years ago either.

I have noticed the change as well. The attitude is getting ruder, and the language (and abbreviations) are getting cruder and crasser. We have more "know it alls" who dispense rumor and opinion as if it were fact. Some folks fancy themselves far more superior than others, too. We haven't had as many rants as we do know (no offense guys, I am doing it now too  ). At times TPT seems as juvenile as "My Space" can be.

People come and people go. You have a good mix, then you have a bad mix. That is the nature of these things. The forums wax and they wane.

Perhaps we should start a new thread for the new year? One in which people pledge to be a little kinder around here. They will read and respond with more Patience. People will treat each other with more respect. They'll be slow to feel the need to poke fun of something, yet quick to offer help or a productive suggestion. Promise to clean up their language a little more. Fewer allusions to swearing and acronyms that include curse words. People would just be more tolerant of each other and their opinions.

Who would make such a pledge?


Mike


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Thats a great suggestion Mike.

I had been thinking for some time that there needs to be some kind of general thread to remind folks to show more restraint - to keep the civility up. I have noticed a change too, and I figure its just the way it is when dealing with huge populations - the forum has grown and evolves and its not always a kinder evolution...

I like to think when carrying on a conversation on-line, you are inviting someone else in your home. So one should treat that individual with common curtesy and respect as you would if they were in your home. But some folks tend to do the car rage-annonymous rant thing, which is rude and immature. 

Mike, maybe there could be some method to post it and remind everyone, like a Moderator notice every once in a while.


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## cherokeetestpilot (Dec 8, 2006)

I concur. After all, this is supposed to be a hobby based forum (passion in my case  ) and it's supposed to be something we ENJOY doing and HAVE FUN at. I for one would definetly sign on to that pledge, although, I must say that being a fairly new member myself, I have never run into anyone that hasn't been very helpful. Mind you, there were a couple of names put out there earlier in this post that I do not recognized. 

I'm here for the info, comraderie and all the good stuff that goes along with that.

I sure feel sorry for someone that comes on to this post expecting to read something about substrates....lol. We should have started a seperate thead. Let's get back to the topic that this thread was orginally intended for and possibly post a link to a new thread that can continue this secondary topic.
Take care all


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Well, I _tried_ to keep my post on topic :hihi:. Yup. The conversation needs to be moved to _The Lounge_, or perhaps the _Board Problems/Suggestions_ forum.


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