# Protecting German Blue Ram Eggs...



## iamtechno (Sep 23, 2013)

It would be a lot easier if you can get them to lay the eggs on a flat surface like a rock or terra cotta pot or driftwood or such and once they've been laid, just remove them all and put them in another tank. Once in another tank, they'll need the airstone close enough to move water over them but not so close they get blown away and you'll also need something to protect them from fungus such as Methylene Blue or Malachite Green or I prefer Hydrogen Peroxide as it's not a weird chemical and it eventually breaks down from H2O2 to H2O. If you trap them under that you can almost guarantee that the fungus will grow and without the mother or father to remove the bad eggs they spread and before you know it, its just a ball of white fungus.

Bump: Some of them just make bad parents and will never successfully be able to rear fry at which point you need to step in. I've done this a number of times with great success. If they were actually getting to a point where they were wiggling than maybe try the bottle to separate but I wouldn't waste your time trying that with eggs as you will almost certainly get fungus trying that.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Thank you very much for the advice. I was particularly concerned about the Fungus issues, and had some skepticism that my idea would work due to the fungus, and realized too that the natural selection used by the parents to remove the bad eggs wouldn't be there. 

I did have a flat rock in the aquarium the last two go arounds, but she chose to lay them in the sand instead, both times. I have since added a couple of other locations in the tank where she can lay the eggs on flat rocks. 

Here is a view down the narrow end of the aquarium that will illustrate where the flat rocks are located, and what they look like:









So, in preparation for next time, there are now actually three very prominent locations where she can lay her eggs on flat rocks. One spot even affords a very secluded location in the back corner of the tank, with an upright slab of rock in front of the flat rock, protecting the flat area where she can hide the nest, protect it, fan it, etc...all in relative seclusion.

When and if she decides to lay on the flat rock, can you advise if I should be able to reach in and gently remove the rock(s). Are the eggs kind of sticky so they are less likely to roll off the rock if I pull the rock out very gently? Or, should I perhaps use a turkey baster to remove them individually?

Also, should I move at least one, or both, of the parents to the new tank, so the bad eggs can be removed by them, or should I just rig up a air line to fan the nest, and leave the parents in the big tank, and treat with Hydrogen Peroxide? With regard to the Hydrogen Peroxide treatment, can you advise the best way to administer that?

If I do leave the parents in the big tank, and rig-up the air line, I assume that I'll need to make a determination as to which eggs are bad myself, and remove them. How, with a tweeters or something? And, do I make that determination when the eggs start to turn white in color? 






iamtechno said:


> It would be a lot easier if you can get them to lay the eggs on a flat surface like a rock or terra cotta pot or driftwood or such and once they've been laid, just remove them all and put them in another tank. Once in another tank, they'll need the airstone close enough to move water over them but not so close they get blown away and you'll also need something to protect them from fungus such as Methylene Blue or Malachite Green or I prefer Hydrogen Peroxide as it's not a weird chemical and it eventually breaks down from H2O2 to H2O. If you trap them under that you can almost guarantee that the fungus will grow and without the mother or father to remove the bad eggs they spread and before you know it, its just a ball of white fungus.
> 
> Bump: Some of them just make bad parents and will never successfully be able to rear fry at which point you need to step in. I've done this a number of times with great success. If they were actually getting to a point where they were wiggling than maybe try the bottle to separate but I wouldn't waste your time trying that with eggs as you will almost certainly get fungus trying that.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Most of my young pairs have the male tending the eggs and fry.
Most times if the eggs or fry are eaten it was the female when I saw it.
If you can pull the female as soon as she is done give that try?
Often I have to remove a female so male will not chase her continuously.
The pair will possibly work together as they mature,but often it is hard to watch over and over.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Well, another issue I also have is the number of fish in the tank. I have (3) Cory Doras, (3) Harlequin Rasboras, (2) Otocinclus, (3) Male GBRs (2 of them fully mature), and (3) female GBRs (one of them fully mature). So, (2) of the GBR females are teenagers, and (2) of the GBR males are teenagers. With a total of (13) fish in a 20 gallon tank, I've been doing relatively frequent water changes via an overflow to a drain (couple times a week), so as not to disturb the plants in the tank, etc...And, all of the fish seem healthy and happy, except for the squabbles between the GBR males, which is to be expected. 

But, when that time comes again, I suspect I am either going to have to isolate the eggs by removing them, or move all the fish to another tank immediately once the eggs have been laid. Like you said, being there, "Johnny on the Spot," is sometimes a challenge, doing that right at the exact opportune moment before they are eaten. But, in my limited experience so far, you're right, the female has been the culprit, eating the eggs within about less than an hour of laying them. 

So, perhaps it is worth giving removal of the female a try...I just hope the Male will have the where-with-all to repel the other fish. The Corys are especially persistent. The Harlequin Rasboras, and the Octocinclus don't seem to be too much of a problem. The Harlequin Rasboras stay in a high strata of the water, and the Octocinclus don't seem as though they have any interest in anything but glass surfaces, and the algae bites I give them. 




Coralbandit said:


> Most of my young pairs have the male tending the eggs and fry.
> Most times if the eggs or fry are eaten it was the female when I saw it.
> If you can pull the female as soon as she is done give that try?
> Often I have to remove a female so male will not chase her continuously.
> The pair will possibly work together as they mature,but often it is hard to watch over and over.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Move the pair to another tank if you want to try to raise fry.
The parents may just eat eggs /fry so other fish don't(sounds silly I know).
All my GBR breeding efforts are with pairs separated.


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## iamtechno (Sep 23, 2013)

Once you see the eggs, just remove the stone or whatever they've been laid on. If its on the gravel, you can use a turkey baster or a narrow diameter tube for a siphon. If they're on the rock, yes they're fairly sticky and you can pull the whole thing out and put it in another tank with the eggs just sticking to whatever. I was told at first to never let the eggs come out of the water when transferring tanks and went through a lot of trouble with a large bowl and what a waste of time. They'll be just fine as long as you get them in another tank within a few seconds. Its really as simple as moving something from one tank to another and setting up air line next to it. Don't forget about the fungus. Like I said, I prefer Hydrogen Peroxide but it can take some time to figure out the proper amount per gallon as things like temperature and how much airflow/surface agitation will make a difference in how quickly it reverts back to H2O so Methylene Blue or Malachite Green work well


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Thanks very much...I've separated the GBRs into two tanks in the meantime to cut down on some of the turmoil from having too many males in one tank, hoping this may also create a more harmonious environment for them to breed. It also permits me to experiment a bit with leaving the parents in one tank, and removing the eggs to another tank from the other. 

I have (1) adult male and one adult female, plus a teenage (female) in a ten gallon tank. I would have preferred this tank to be larger, but it's all I had, and I'm running out of room. Then, I have an adult male, a teenage female, and a teenage male in the twenty gallon tank. 


I've also removed all the other varieties of fish from both tanks, so as to make it easier to deal with eventual eggs in either of the tanks. 

As a consequence of moving them, and using up my empty cycled tank, I'm going to get another 5 gallon or 10 gallon tank started, and hope to have it fully cycled quickly, so I'll have somewhere to put the fry should I get some. 

Can eggs from different clutches be comingled in the same tank were I to have simultaneous clutches of eggs from both tanks were I to want to raise the fry myself? 



iamtechno said:


> Once you see the eggs, just remove the stone or whatever they've been laid on. If its on the gravel, you can use a turkey baster or a narrow diameter tube for a siphon. If they're on the rock, yes they're fairly sticky and you can pull the whole thing out and put it in another tank with the eggs just sticking to whatever. I was told at first to never let the eggs come out of the water when transferring tanks and went through a lot of trouble with a large bowl and what a waste of time. They'll be just fine as long as you get them in another tank within a few seconds. Its really as simple as moving something from one tank to another and setting up air line next to it. Don't forget about the fungus. Like I said, I prefer Hydrogen Peroxide but it can take some time to figure out the proper amount per gallon as things like temperature and how much airflow/surface agitation will make a difference in how quickly it reverts back to H2O so Methylene Blue or Malachite Green work well


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Quizcat said:


> Can eggs from different clutches be comingled in the same tank were I to have simultaneous clutches of eggs from both tanks were I to want to raise the fry myself?


Yes.
I've been able to mix freeswimming fry with 2 weeks of each other before.
I would keep the 2 teens and least dominat pair in the 20 and most dominant pair in the 10.
Keep up on water changes and they will be fine the 10.
I have bred in 5's.
You will want live food for the fry if you get any,so be prepared!
Baby brine shrimp,micro worms and vinnegar eels are good choices(I use both worms).


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Here is the "rest of the story..."

The two clutches of eggs so far were from the female below:








Female

and, the Male, shown below. 







Male

But, it appears to me that the male may be some kind of cross between perhaps a Golden Ram and a GBR. Notice the difference in the top fin, the less vivid coloring, the overall size, etc...Well, I've been having some doubts that the male, might not be fully compatible with respect to the GBR variety of fish, even though he was doing all the right things. 

So, I began wondering whether I might be better off if I could locate a different male, at least one that looked full blooded, like the female with respect to coloring and general characteristics. 

So, I purchased the other four GBRs very recently, after finding what appeared to be some normal, healthy, GBRs with the right kind of coloring and characteristics. One of them was an adult male (beautiful coloring), and the other three were teenagers, (2) females (definitely teenagers-one a teenager and the other barely a teenager), and (1) male (a very young adult, small, but already really colorful).

So, I have decided to isolate the old two GBRs (the ones that already had the two clutches of eggs in their own tank), and to put the other four in their own tank. Two of the four new GBRs seem to already possibly be paired, the colorful young adult, and the more colorful of the two teenage females. So, I figured that I needed to get them back together in the same tank. After all, they did all come from the same tank at the Local Store, and the two were already showing some pairing behavior in that tank as well. 

So, since I began this thread, I now have the four new full blooded GBRs in their own tank, and the two from the prior egg clutches in their own tank. Plus, I wanted to get the larger GBR/Golden Ram "Whatever Cross" away from the other males. He is the most aggressive of the six fish, and was constantly harrassing them. I figured that putting him exclusively with the old GBR he was already paired with would save a lot of turmoil between the other four full blooded GBRs. I figured it was not a good "community" situtation conducive to breeding with the big GBR/Golden Ram chasing the others, especially the males, all over the tank on a constant basis. 

The other full blooded new GBR is not nearly as aggressive as the GBR Cross, and I figured that there would be more harmony in a tank with the four GBRs that were already familiar with one another from being in the tank at the store. 

So, there you have it...that's were I am today. Since I haven't breed GBRs before, I am curious whether my reasoning makes sense with respect to how to isolate these fish for the best chance of success.


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

IMO the largest or most senior to tank will be dominate.
The male looks like a long fin,not a gold.
If he is the toughest it is best to keep him away from others.
The others are younger and used to being in a group still so more socialable.
Species wise the GBR,Gold rams and Electric blue are the same so all could breed with each other no problems.
Enjoy!


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Ah, ok...yes, he is undoubtedly a "long finned" BR. You know, I had never heard of the long finned variety before until you just now mentioned it. I had even posted photos of him in the past, hoping to learn what variety he might be. But, I received very little response, and most of the responses were speculative. I can see from an internet search, and a review of photos on the net, that he is most definitely a long finned Blue Ram. 

Yes, he is the most dominate, and he had seniority in the 20 gallon tank, along with his female GBR. But, he is now with his female, isolated in his own 10 gallon tank, which I hope will be large enough for just the two of them. I am encouraged that he can indeed reproduce with the female, since he is just a long finned version of the same variety. It may be interesting to see what the offspring look like. He is sometimes not as vividly colored as the standard GBR. But, at times, his coloring, while distinctively different than a full blooded GBR, is still very beautiful. His color highlights, such as the orange trim along the fins, are more vivid than at other times, probably when he is not stressed, or displaying for the female.

Thanks again for the heads-up about him being a long finned BR!



Coralbandit said:


> The male looks like a long fin,not a gold...


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Quizcat said:


> Yes, he is the most dominate, and he had seniority in the 20 gallon tank, along with his female GBR. But, he is now with his female, isolated in his own 10 gallon tank, which I hope will be large enough for just the two of them. I am encouraged that he can indeed reproduce with the female, since he is just a long finned version of the same variety. It may be interesting to see what the offspring look like. He is sometimes not as vividly colored as the standard GBR. But, at times, his coloring, while distinctively different than a full blooded GBR, is still very beautiful. His color highlights, such as the orange trim along the fins, are more vivid than at other times, probably when he is not stressed, or displaying for the female.
> 
> Thanks again for the heads-up about him being a long finned BR!


When I bred long finned white clouds(BEAUTIFUL!) they did not shoot(produce )100% long finned fry.I got this confirmed by my #1 LFS owner.Same with "lyre tail" swordtails.Not all fry were lyre tailed.
Coloring of the rams is different due to many,many factors.
Some of my GBR really look gold,even though I have never owned one.But I don't know how the fish farms due what they do?


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

I guess some of the fish farms, especially in Asia, inject color...

I had been reading up on what to expect from the fry between a Golden Ram and a GBR, thinking that the male was some kind of cross variety. I read that a majority of the offspring would have been born with GBR coloring, due to the Golden Ram having a recessive gene. 

I suspect that some from a long finned BR male and GBR female will be born as long finned BRs, and others as GBRs, but not sure whether a long finned BR has any more of a dominate gene that would influence the ratio one way or the other over the GBR, or visa versa. I suppose time will tell...



Coralbandit said:


> When I bred long finned white clouds(BEAUTIFUL!) they did not shoot(produce )100% long finned fry.I got this confirmed by my #1 LFS owner.Same with "lyre tail" swordtails.Not all fry were lyre tailed.
> Coloring of the rams is different due to many,many factors.
> Some of my GBR really look gold,even though I have never owned one.But I don't know how the fish farms due what they do?


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## iamtechno (Sep 23, 2013)

Yeah you need to watch what you buy with Ram's. I can't say this enough. I would never buy a Ram from a fish farm in Asia. I would personally never buy a Ram from a fish farm at all. You don't want to risk all the problems that almost certainly will come along with them and their poor genetics. Always get Ram's from a good source. It also looks like your Ram has more wild type colors than German Blue Ram colors probably due to weak breeding. Still a nice fish but it doesn't have the color the female does. I've got wild Ram's and they're great.


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## Quizcat (Dec 21, 2014)

Excellent advice...I think the "weaker" coloring is due to the variety of the species, it being a "Long Finned" Blue Ram versus a "German" Blue Ram. From the photos I've been seeing of the Long Finned Blue Ram, the coloring of the Long Finned Blue Ram that I have appears to be consistent with photos I've reviewed in the last 24 hours of that particular variation of the species. 

An important thing I've learned is that fish identified in the stores as "Blue Rams" are not usually "German Blue Rams." There are quite a few variations of the Blue Ram species, not to mention the crosses within the species. If you're not really careful about what you're buying, you might be buying just a "Blue Ram," or a cross, and not a full blooded "German Blue Ram." There is a siginificant coloration difference between some of the offspring from crosses, or variations of the Blue Ram species. 

Most of the stores don't even have a clue about which variety they're actually selling, or that there's even a difference. But, as you know, there most certainly is...

I purchased my Long Fin Blue Ram thinking it was a German Blue Ram. I had asked the store clerk if they had any GBRs, and she went directly to the "Blue Ram" tank...there could have been almost any variety of Blue Rams, or crosses, in there...mutts, in other words. So, because it was young, and I believed that because it was a juvenile and the coloration was muted, I bought him. So, off I went, thinking I had purchased a young GBR, when in reality he was a Long Finned Blue Ram. But, it's ok, he can be quite beautiful in his own way, when he's displaying full color, and he seems quite hardy as well, which is to his advantage because he's probably more hardy than a full blooded GBR, which are supposed to be delicate. But, he certainly isn't a full blooded GBR...

Anyway, I lost one of the newbies last night...I think it was a female. Probably too much shuffling around from one tank to the next. So, I have one male adule GBR, probably two male GBRs (not sure yet), and a third one too (not sure of the sex, but I think it is female the way the other fish are relating to it) in the 20 gallon tank. And, I have the original pair, the GBR and the Long Finned Blue Ram in the 10 gallon tank. 

The only other fish I have in the twenty gallon tank are two Otocinclus. I have heard that they won't bother eggs, or anything else. So, I hope it's ok to leave them in there with the three GBRs. The original pair of GBRs have no other fish in the ten gallon tank with them. But, I notice that they are being very still in the tank, hiding behind some drift wood, more lethargic than usual, but resting upright, so that's a good sign. I am hoping that they haven't been too terribly stressed from moving to the ten gallon tank. 

I'm going to leave everybody alone for a while so as not to stress them out any further...




iamtechno said:


> Yeah you need to watch what you buy with Ram's. I can't say this enough. I would never buy a Ram from a fish farm in Asia. I would personally never buy a Ram from a fish farm at all. You don't want to risk all the problems that almost certainly will come along with them and their poor genetics. Always get Ram's from a good source. It also looks like your Ram has more wild type colors than German Blue Ram colors probably due to weak breeding. Still a nice fish but it doesn't have the color the female does. I've got wild Ram's and they're great.


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