# thoughts on algae



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I think I agree with you, nutrients are not the way to control algae, simply focusing on plant growth(the original goal hobbyists have coming into the hobby) and learning to be better plant growers is really the key here.

I really do not focus much on algae, it's a sign I'm not caring properly for the plants.

Blackouts really do not work well for GW.
UV and/or micron filtration can eliminate every case of GW in the hobby I've ever seen.

GW is among the easiest algae to manage.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

as i understand it, algae is found when there is a imbalance in the tank, too much light not enough nutrients, to many nutrients not enough light, to little CO2 yadda yadda. 

there can not be one cure all solution as no ones tank is the same. that would be like saying the solution to poor eye sight is the same glasses perscription for all people, it doesn't work, every ones eyes are different, and so are the situations.

algae is no different. everyones tank is different, i could set up two identical tanks, with the same susbtrate from the same batch, the same lights, one made right after the other on the assembly line. I could get the same plants on the same shipment, heck i could just split the plants off and share them between the two tanks. i could do everything step by step the same, and the tanks would be totally different. 

if we as a whole had the patience, i have no doubt we could examine every plant in the tank, and find out what nutrients they use and don't use, then examine every leaf, stem, and root, to find out exactly what nutrients are lacking. create a dosing solution to cure that, and then do it all again in a few weeks to see how the enviroment has changed.

but 98% of the people here don't have the patience for that, and just want a quick fix. so we give them that. 


Algae is present in nature, it is part of a healthy eco-system. to me it belongs in the tank, it should be there, because it is there in nature.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Flear said:


> why the insistence that controlling nutrients is the definitive answer on controlling algae ?


Hi,

This theory is crap. Just focus on plant growth instead of fighting algae. They need *good light, nutrients*, CO2, but you don't have to inject CO2 to have a pretty planted tank.

Algae and plants are not the same but they both fight for light, nutrients, CO2. Algae are part of the tank, whether we want it or not. However in well maintained planted tanks, algae slowly disappear to the point we only see some in a corner, if at all. It requires some patience though.

As for myself, spent all the 2012 year, dealing with all kinds of algae. I was pretty desparate many times, was thinking of throwing the towel. Do not give up, every hobbyist had his share of problems. It takes time to figure all that, and trials/errors.

Also, from my point of view, blackouts, U.V., algae control chemicals are crap and a waste of time in a planted tank. Leave this to the amateurs.

Michel.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

micheljq said:


> Hi,
> 
> This theory is crap. Just focus on plant growth instead of fighting algae. They need *good light, nutrients*, CO2, but you don't have to inject CO2 to have a pretty planted tank.
> 
> ...


Your comments are way to extreme. Good plant growth is definitely a big part of many setups and a UV is a win, win for GW and fish health so to say it's crap really doesn't hold up. There's enough evidence to support both of these as beneficial.


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## scotty82 (May 9, 2012)

This is interesting, I'm listening.


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## gSTiTcH (Feb 21, 2013)

Aquatic Delight said:


> as i understand it, algae is found when there is a imbalance in the tank, too much light not enough nutrients, to many nutrients not enough light, to little CO2 yadda yadda.


People who dose using EI intentionally "overdose" nutrients to ensure that there is no deficiency that would inhibit plant growth. Many of those people do not experience algae problems. Based on my limited experience hands on and reading about other people's problems, it seems that algae takes control in the deficiency status more than the abundance status. Algae are very simple plants and can adapt to poor conditions much better than complex plants.

For example, I have dealt with a number of algae types in my tank.

BBA - This set in when my DIY CO2 wasn't stable enough. Disappeared when I went on the bottle.
GSA - Was terrible until I started dosing phosphates.
Hair Algae - CO2 ran out, needle valve went bad... several problems that resulted in a CO2 shortage.

The only one I couldn't figure out was the GWA, but I suspect that was a nitrate shortage.

All of this boils down to what Tom indicated above: focus on giving the PLANTS everything they need and the algae will resolve itself.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> Your comments are way to extreme. Good plant growth is definitely a big part of many setups and a UV is a win, win for GW and fish health so to say it's crap really doesn't hold up. There's enough evidence to support both of these as beneficial.


Hi house of cards,

_UV is a win for GW_. If there is green water in a tank, this is a problem which can be solved another way than using U.V. It means something was not properly maintained.

One can try find the root cause or do it the easy way and use UV. Don't count on me to use UV.

Please explain why it is beneficial for fish health.

Resorting to the easy and fast solution is seldom the best in the long run.

Thank you.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

i'll stay away from UV sterilization, ... your killing everything in the water, even the good stuff.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Flear said:


> i'll stay away from UV sterilization, ... your killing everything in the water, even the good stuff.


Honesty, why make a statement like that when so many people use them in all kinds of aquatic environments. So how do their tanks do so well with them?


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> Honesty, why make a statement like that when so many people use them in all kinds of aquatic environments. So how do their tanks do so well with them?


Most tanks do very well without UV. Why try to make us believe that UV is a must??

Maybe in an outside basin with goldfishes and plenty of sunlight and no plants or in an african cichlid tank with a lot of light and no plants, but did I mention "*planted tank*" in my post? Of course if someone has it already and want to use it, go for it.

I did not want to be mean, if I did I apologize.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

what's the definition of "clean" water ?
water that looks clean ?
water that has nothing living in it ? (could have lots of microscopic dead stuff in it)

some fish are really sensitive to water quality, then there is a strange blank in what counts as good water quality ?, nitrogen cycle ?, is that is ?, nutrients dissolved in the water column ? (or lack of nutrients dissolved)

house of cards, ... how do peoples tanks do so well that use UV sterilization systems ?, ... how well would their tanks be without them ? no one really knows do they. you've got something in there, you insist you need it, you've never had your tank in a situation that really required it, ... and so you advocate that it's required, ... but based on what information ?

if you've got a use for it, ... use it, then turn it off. if you've got no use for it, but are running it anyway because someone else was able to get you pay a bunch of cash for it, for something you really don't need, ... i'll put that in the pile i've got labeled for ignorant people.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

gSTiTcH said:


> People who dose using EI intentionally "overdose" nutrients to ensure that there is no deficiency that would inhibit plant growth. Many of those people do not experience algae problems. Based on my limited experience hands on and reading about other people's problems, it seems that algae takes control in the deficiency status more than the abundance status. Algae are very simple plants and can adapt to poor conditions much better than complex plants.
> 
> 
> All of this boils down to what Tom indicated above: focus on giving the PLANTS everything they need and the algae will resolve itself.


i'm not arguing that algae is better suited for a deficiency state, i know it its true, but we can't ignore that it does appear in in in overly rich enviroments as-well, it may not be as prominent but it is there.

i think you may have missed my point, my post was a response to statements and questions posed by the OP, mainly the second and third sections and the question "why the insistence that controlling nutrients is the definitive answer on controlling algae ?"

also i think the quote below was in line with what Tom Barr said about keeping plants healthy and they will control the algae.



Aquatic Delight said:


> if we as a whole had the patience, i have no doubt we could examine every plant in the tank, and find out what nutrients they use and don't use, then examine every leaf, stem, and root, to find out exactly what nutrients are lacking. create a dosing solution to cure that, and then do it all again in a few weeks to see how the enviroment has changed.
> 
> but 98% of the people here don't have the patience for that, and just want a quick fix. so we give them that.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

micheljq said:


> Most tanks do very well without UV. Why try to make us believe that UV is a must??.


Not really trying to argue with you, but tell me where I said a UV is a must?

If your having issues like GW there's no reason not to use one. That was the main point.


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## gSTiTcH (Feb 21, 2013)

UV lovers vs. haters can argue for and against all day.

I'm in the middle. I have UV, and have used it one time to clear up a green water outbreak. It's not a routine thing with my tank. No more than dosing medications is a routine thing. It's a reparation measure, not a maintenance item. Not to say that my method is right or wrong, but it works for my tank.

Aquatic: Most overly rich environments are still lacking in something. The hard part is identifying that missing puzzle piece.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

gSTiTcH, ... when needed, how your using UV, that i totally agree with.

it becomes a personal preference, but you know where it's got it's uses and after that you recognize it's not needed.

House of Cards, ... there's also a bunch of alternatives, ... well i think they're alternatives, ... it adds to the ecosystem of our tanks, and a lot of trial and error as i haven't seen anything done to view it as ... well you know Greenwater really is live food for the live food we can put in our tanks. that live food (if it's not eaten right away can completely clear up GW, not permanently, but if the end result is a bunch of fish with full bellies, ... i'm all for it


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Only point being made is there is no reason not to use a UV if you have issues. It also helps with some fish issues (look at the salt side of the hobby). You can use it when you need it or 24/7 there isn't any downside.

Oliver Knott is one of the premier aqua designers in the world and he uses one on most of his setups. 

http://www.pbase.com/plantella/360_liter_aquascape_by_oliver_knott

I have used on a few setups when needed with absolutely no issues running one for 3 years 24/7. Doesn't mean you have to, just that it could be beneficial to some setups.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I RARELY ever need or use one, but if there's any GW, I will. 3 days later, I no longer need it and I take it off the tank.

Micron filters will do this also.

This method works 100% of the time and is easy. Cheap also if you buy a cheapo UV and then sell it after.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Flear said:


> i'll stay away from UV sterilization, ... your killing everything in the water, even the good stuff.


No, you ONLY kill what goes through the UV, not the plants, fish or the bacteria and microfauna and flora on the surfaces inside the tank, filter etc.
This is a fear based response, not one based on rational logic nor evidence. You are welcomed to think this way, but you will not get much answer or be able to come to any logical conclusion/s. Which was your original intent no? 

An UV keeps the high populations of bacteria and GW down to a small tiny little glass box with too many fish. If you have the CO2 run out and higher light+ over fed fish, or a new set up tank, not enough plants added from the start etc, then GW is common.

Otherwise GW is EXTREMELY RARE.
Plants mediate the NH4 and greedily remove it before much of the bacteria can utilize it. It's very rare to ever measure any NH4 in any planted tank.

You can overload NH4 and knock the CO2 down some and add lots of light, this is a good way to induce GW. It's fairly easy to induce compared to many other species of algae that plague hobbyists, and it's easy to kill and re test with no harm to livestock or plants.

The NH4 trigger is more toxic than the UV. But a well run tank can take pretty good sized hits of NH4(eg, 1ppm a day).


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm just going to back up and say that I have a VERY hard time believing snails decimated your "Nitrosomonas" colony to the point where it was inhibiting the nitrification process. More likely you simply had too many snails producing too much waste (ie. ammonia) and the assassins brought the population back into balance with the rest of your tank.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

didn't think of that, (things are getting back in line now). i forgot all about snail poop


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

i want greenwater, first is to keep clams alive, but ultimately for endless live food now if only i could find moina , just not a fan of rotifers might have to suck it up though. things that hurt the greenwater are a bit of a concern to me.

first thing it surprised me with is an iron deficiency (fixing that now), also noticing as i'm dealing with ammonia as levels rise it starts to kill off the greenwater (starts to clear up), about the same time fish gills get inflamed 

i'm a little concerned about a potassium deficiency, i think the iron deficiency is a bigger concern to the plants though (hiding the potassium deficiency), i'm hoping that when the iron gets up to desired levels i can work on whatever is next. PH up in small doses, not the greatest solution, hard to find potassium specific supplements.

other than deficiencies i am thinking of searching for lots of soft algea that will be desired by fish, and/or soft herbs. there is a small leafed basil i am sure could grow submerged. the large leafed common one the snails loved it to pieces, ... literally 

lots of issues, lots of curiosities, ... where this thread started, ... most of what i want in the tank, algae plays a large part of, ... the worst thing about looking up information on any kind of algae, no one knows anything.

Q. What keeps it alive ?
A. Well it's kinda vague, could be this that or the other thing, so fix all that to get rid of it, ... wait that doesn't work because there is still the root problem.
(didn't i want to keep it alive???)

and looking around farther is full of people who have those things in check and they're battling algae issues as well.

so that's great that algae can be resilient, but then looking to what is needed to keep it alive and answers are just as ambiguous as peoples information still says "check the root cause" without knowing what that is.

all these "algae eater" fish on the market, ... about all anyone knows is they eat thread/hair algae, ... well that covers one group, what about the rest ?

when i think of algae, find some soft stuff, that your algae eating fish will like ... give it a screen so the fish doesn't eat it to extinction, treat it like a garden for your fish.

only just started looking through a science school supplies site and there's colors, there's shapes, sure, not all freshwater, so rule out marine algae, find stuff that grows fast & is soft, stuff that's tasty for the inhabitants of the tank. stuff that little fry can hide in, or rotifers can attach to. (so there's a use for rotifers) pick algae that's nutritious.

searching for this on google is not as great as i would have hoped, half the species available from the science place have paragraph answers that say little more than what it is, "freshwater & marine species", ... well thank you for that, that leaves me totally clueless now., ... rate of growth ?, nutrition ?, color ?, shape ? toxic ?, ... kinda important questions from my perspective.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Flear said:


> i'll stay away from UV sterilization, ... your killing everything in the water, even the good stuff.


I think what Flear means is that you are killing every living microorganism which is in the water column.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

Micheljq, yes 

i won't take it for granted that people would be smart enough to never have the UV light directly in the tank, but that's the general assumption


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

micheljq said:


> I think what Flear means is that you are killing every living microorganism which is in the water column.


I think Plantbrain addressed that in the 1st paragraph of post #19

The vast majority of beneficial organisms are adhered to surfaces not moving about the water column.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Plants have various chemical needs, some need more calcium and some can’t tolerate calcium at all. This is not a one size fits all kind of thing. One would assume that algae are not so dissimilar. Just as, not all alga eating creatures eat the same alga. 
With more people culturing algae for its use as fuel one would hope we will get a better understanding of specific culture in the near future.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

the nutrient requirements i'm on the fence about, ... i guess i'll cross that bridge when i get there.

i am a touch worried about any allelochemicals that various plants & algae may have and hope they don't interfere with anything in the tank


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Allelochemicals aren't fully understood and can still be a controversial subject. I know Walstad mentions them but keep in mind that her method is VERY low tech. Most planted aquariums are receiving water changes to the point where they aren't going to be building up to a noticeable level.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

i'll stick with a less educated approach, ... everything is good and nothing is killing anything, then it's all good and i don't have to worry about the rest 

if things aren't working out, ... well then i scratch my head and wonder "i have no idea of what 10 species in this tank is doing the harm"


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

houseofcards said:


> I think Plantbrain addressed that in the 1st paragraph of post #19
> 
> The vast majority of beneficial organisms are adhered to surfaces not moving about the water column.


Understood


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

jpappy789 said:


> Allelochemicals aren't fully understood and can still be a controversial subject. I know Walstad mentions them but keep in mind that her method is VERY low tech. Most planted aquariums are receiving water changes to the point where they aren't going to be building up to a noticeable level.


This is a very interesting subject that would deserve a thread one of these days.

Allelopathy can be a real issue with plants in the aquariums where water changes are not being on a regular basis (like mine for instance, I am not strong on WC, I am lazy), and with certain particular plants possibly, yet knowledge is limited.

It maybe a reason why algae disappear with time in well established planted tanks.

We do not know a lot about this yet, but the scientifical evidence is there, we know now it is not a fairy tale at least.

Michel.


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

Micheljq, actually, that is promissing to hear, ... only because i don't like clado


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

micheljq said:


> This is a very interesting subject that would deserve a thread one of these days.
> 
> Allelopathy can be a real issue with plants in the aquariums where water changes are not being on a regular basis (like mine for instance, I am not strong on WC, I am lazy), and with certain particular plants possibly, yet knowledge is limited.
> 
> ...


I agree. It's would be interesting to think about how effective it would be at a more localized (individual plant-plant interaction) scale and if that plays any part in how our plants grow in relation to each other compared to natural settings where plant beds are much larger. 

I found a couple of articles specific to aquatic plants but unfortunately my current internet access doesn't give me permission to look at any databases that aren't already free...


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## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

the reef tank forum has a section "the think tank" that is frequented by university students. ... i remember one of them mentioned that allelochemicals tend to be very specific, ... against other plants, or fish, or coral, ... that kind of thing. i don't know how specific, if they target species or not


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## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Me neither, although I was lucky enough to take a week long class in the Bahamas and it was pretty evident that corals do "battle" each other as you can see physical lines in between different species of HUGE corals. But I want to say that the corals have specialized spicules for this in addition to possible allelopathy.


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