# To go with high tech with shrimp or not?



## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Hello all,
I am in a bit of a dilemma here. Right now I'm trying to decide whether or not I should go with a high tech, CO2 injected tank while also getting high grade shrimp (CRS & CBS). My goal originally was to make a high tech iwagumi style tank with a solid carpet of HC for the main plant, maybe a few others. And I also wanted a large colony of shrimp. I have been doing a lot of research on the CRS as of lately because they are new to me and am getting slightly mixed info in regards to CO2. Many articles I read state that CO2 is alright with the shrimp, it's things like ferts that will harm the shrimp. But the more threads I read on here, it seems like most of the people keeping these shrimp have them in low-med tech setups with no CO2. I have also read a lot of threads on here about people that ran into problems while injecting CO2. What are your guys thoughts and opinions on this? I would love to have the best of both worlds and stick with the original plan but I'd like to hear what you have to say first.

Wow, can't believe this is my first post lol, sorry for not contributing...


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

I personally have kept them in both. I started out with a high co2, med/low light tank. Then once I started another tank, I took the CO2 off that tank, and suddenly the shrimp started breeding. There were adults in the tank the whole time so it's not just coincidental. My shrimp breed on a monthly basis now, and everything in that tank is as healthy as could be. Good luck, whatever you do.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

CO2 definitely has negative effects on shrimp well-being. They seem to breed less in a CO2 environment. You also have to make sure at night you run airstones or what not to ensure you don't gas them.

But it really depends on your priority. Are you looking for a high-tech planted tank? Or a shrimp tank?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Yeah, the big fall back with a high tech shrimp tank is that it's really easy to gas all your shrimp without realizing it. Especially if you haven't used pressurized co2 before. It's much easier on you and really, the shrimp, to forego co2. The other big issue with CRS is making sure the water parameters are right. If you have the proper water, And have to run co2, I would definitely run an airstone at night at the very least. I run one 24/7 in my 29gal but the co2 is also running 24/7 as well. I've been able to keep rcs in there, but I've still occasionally gassed some even though the airstone was on and the fish were totally fine. They're just sensitive to it.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

I keep CRS/CBS in a 10 gallon with a CO2 tank, no problem. They breed. However, they don't breed as prolifically as they did minus the CO2. Without CO2, my staurogyne and HC all melted, and I had thread algae everywhere. With CO2, the plants thrive, the HC carpets, and no thread algae. 

I keep the CO2 steady at 1 bubble per second, 24/7. I used to run an airstone on a timer at night, but I saw no difference so I no longer bother. The CO2 makes all the difference though. For me, the beauty of my tank was as important as the inhabitants.


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## rbus (Jul 19, 2011)

It is definitely lower-risk to keep shrimp in a low-tech tank, but I have kept and bred both cherries and CRS in a high-tech (medium light) tank. You just have to be vigilant with the CO2. 

If your goal is to breed shrimp, i'd forgo CO2. If your goal is to have a great show tank with shrimp who may breed, then gas up.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

It's a very simple answer, really. If you have to ask the question, chances are, you are still new to with shrimp keeping. With that in mind, everyone will agree that you should start off with a low-light no-CO2 tank. Learn shrimp keeping first.

I have 20+ no-entry hinomaru CRS in my ADA 120-P with reef-worthy lighting, super high CO2 injection, and EI dosing. My first batch of CRS in this tank was a failure, and I've had to tweak things. Now the second batch are happy and I regularly see berried mama's now. _The shrimplets surviving the fish is a different story altogether, though._
Pics:
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh8/zergling2/ADA 120-P/dec 20 2011/IMG_1097.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh8/zergling2/ADA 120-P/Jan 4 2012/IMG_1134.jpg
It's definitely not something I'd recommend to anyone. At best, I can share with shrimp guru's the lessons I've learned with derping around with high light.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

I appreciate all the quick responses guys



youjettisonme said:


> I keep CRS/CBS in a 10 gallon with a CO2 tank, no problem. They breed. However, they don't breed as prolifically as they did minus the CO2. Without CO2, my staurogyne and HC all melted, and I had thread algae everywhere. With CO2, the plants thrive, the HC carpets, and no thread algae.
> 
> I keep the CO2 steady at 1 bubble per second, 24/7. I used to run an airstone on a timer at night, but I saw no difference so I no longer bother. The CO2 makes all the difference though. For me, the beauty of my tank was as important as the inhabitants.


So you run CO2 throughout the night? Why run the CO2 during the off time of the photoperiod? What you described here is something I would like to go for, aesthetics are very important to me, so I'm not quite sure I'd say this is a shrimp based tank. I want to keep the shrimp alive, if they breed, that would be an added bonus.



zergling said:


> It's a very simple answer, really. If you have to ask the question, chances are, you are still new to with shrimp keeping. With that in mind, everyone will agree that you should start off with a low-light no-CO2 tank. Learn shrimp keeping first.
> 
> I have 20+ no-entry hinomaru CRS in my ADA 120-P with reef-worthy lighting, super high CO2 injection, and EI dosing. My first batch of CRS in this tank was a failure, and I've had to tweak things.
> It's definitely not something I'd recommend to anyone. At best, I can share with shrimp guru's the lessons I've learned with derping around with high light.


Wow, stunning tank you have there Zerg. I am not new to shrimp keeping, as I have kept cherries, amanos, and rilli, in the past. I am new to CRS, which is what I would want to be keeping in this tank. I understand though that the CRS can introduce a whole new level of sensitivity. Why would you say your first batch of CRS were a failure? What is helping this second batch succeed? I don't plan on keeping any fish in the tank, but what exactly is it that you wouldn't recommend to anyone? Finally, what were shrimp guru's lessons (I didn't see anyone post here names shrimp guru)?


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## ZLogic (Aug 7, 2011)

Is it just CRS and CBS that are sensitive to co2 or all shrimp? I'm shooting for a similar setup but my priority was on the look of the tank and not the breeding of shrimp. I want a nice tank, with shrimp. It's my first go at an HC carpet and pressurized co2 so I was going with cherries since they are tougher than crystals.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

ZLogic said:


> Is it just CRS and CBS that are sensitive to co2 or all shrimp? I'm shooting for a similar setup but my priority was on the look of the tank and not the breeding of shrimp. I want a nice tank, with shrimp. It's my first go at an HC carpet and pressurized co2 so I was going with cherries since they are tougher than crystals.


All shrimp are sensitive to...well...almost everything. Inverts in general are very sensitive due to anatomy (not as many organs that purify things or something, I can't remember the exact reason but they basically poison easier than other animals) and because they are so tiny.

To the best of my knowledge the difference in sensitivity to CO2 between Crystal Red Shrimp and Red Cherry Shrimp follows along with the difference in general sensitivity - i.e. crystals are just more sensitive in general. They seem to be more sensitive to pH changes as well which is something that CO2 can cause.

Red Cherry Shrimp (or yellows, rilis, pumpkins, snowballs, etc.) are definitely the right way for you to go if you are going to try and balance a high tech tank with keeping shrimp. They will give you a lot more leeway and they are a lot cheaper as well.

From what I have read from people who keep and breed shrimp in high tech tanks one of the best ways to help keep them from being gassed by CO2 is to run an air stone or otherwise inject oxygen into the water 24/7. This will off-gas (waste) some of the CO2 but as long as you aren't running a massive tank it won't cost you much to pump a little more CO2 in to account for whatever you lose.

I haven't tried it myself but I would imagine that if you run the CO2 on the low side and keep the ferts and lighting on the low side (high enough for effect but nowhere near the saturation or maximum level on any of them) then you would have better luck. This would hopefully allow you to grow any plant that you wanted in a healthy fashion but would just result in less than maximum growth rate.


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## zergling (May 16, 2007)

TRIG said:


> Wow, stunning tank you have there Zerg. I am not new to shrimp keeping, as I have kept cherries, amanos, and rilli, in the past. I am new to CRS, which is what I would want to be keeping in this tank. I understand though that the CRS can introduce a whole new level of sensitivity. Why would you say your first batch of CRS were a failure? What is helping this second batch succeed? I don't plan on keeping any fish in the tank, but what exactly is it that you wouldn't recommend to anyone? Finally, what were shrimp guru's lessons (I didn't see anyone post here names shrimp guru)?


Thanks!

As others have noted -- CRS are a lot more sensitive compared to amanos, RCS, and other neocaridinas. While CRS is cheaper now than a few years ago, it is still frustrating to see dead shrimp. This is why you're better off trying your hands first on a low-light no-CO2 tank. Learn what it takes to keep CRS alive and breeding. When you have that down pat, you can now experiment on a different tank, knowing that you have some sort of fall-back if need be.

As for the lessons comment, I meant I can share the lessons (well, more like personal experiences) I've learned with super-high-light tanks - share with other folks, especially those that are experienced with shrimp, but not with high-light tanks.

The first batch of CRS on my tank most likely died due to my stupid high phosphate dosing at that time - 20ppm, 3x a week. I have reduced phosphate dosing and increased CO2 and flow since then. I now regularly see one or two berried mama's on this second batch, but I *think* the fish are hunting down the shrimplets.


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

I'm working something similar myself at the moment, so here's my take on the question...

I have the fortune to have plenty of space now that I bought my own house. The answer I came up with is two tanks of shrimp. One is low light/low tech and the shrimp are very fat and sassy. I'm in the process of adding shrimp to the high tech tank in the living room. I turned off the co2 for a couple days and added the shrimp and am now slowly raising the co2. The shrimp in the display tank are basically culls, so while I'd prefer they don't die, I won't be devastated if they do. As a side note, I also found out that a Hagen double sponge filter will replace the strainer on a Fluval 305 canister filter tube. Instant pre-filter :red_mouth

Not sure if that helps any, but this way I have my breeding stock no matter what happens to the display tank.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

madness said:


> This will off-gas (waste) some of the CO2 but as long as you aren't running a massive tank it won't cost you much to pump a little more CO2 in to account for whatever you lose.


Wouldn't pumping additional CO2 into the tank somewhat defeat the purpose of adding the airstone?



Bandit1200 said:


> I'm working something similar myself at the moment, so here's my take on the question...
> 
> I have the fortune to have plenty of space now that I bought my own house. The answer I came up with is two tanks of shrimp. One is low light/low tech and the shrimp are very fat and sassy. I'm in the process of adding shrimp to the high tech tank in the living room. I turned off the co2 for a couple days and added the shrimp and am now slowly raising the co2. The shrimp in the display tank are basically culls, so while I'd prefer they don't die, I won't be devastated if they do. As a side note, I also found out that a Hagen double sponge filter will replace the strainer on a Fluval 305 canister filter tube. Instant pre-filter :red_mouth
> 
> Not sure if that helps any, but this way I have my breeding stock no matter what happens to the display tank.


I wish I had the space for an additional tank here at my apartment at school but I don't. Please keep us updated on how the CRS do in the display tank, maybe even make an additional thread in here to track their progress.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

TRIG said:


> Wouldn't pumping additional CO2 into the tank somewhat defeat the purpose of adding the airstone?
> 
> I wish I had the space for an additional tank here at my apartment at school but I don't. Please keep us updated on how the CRS do in the display tank, maybe even make an additional thread in here to track their progress.


I think madness meant that at night, people who keep shrimp will either run an airstone or inject oxygen. Not throughout the entire day.

I also own an apartment at school haha. But to satisfy my shrimp craze I set up two tanks. Wish I could set up a rack too . Water and heat is free so it's like the perfect time too. Only hesitant about setting up too many tanks because the move afterwards would be that much worse.

If you're worried about your shrimp with CO2 you can do a quick search on the invert page with "shrimp CO2" and you'll get a TON of hits. Sadly, a lot of that will be "OMG ALL MY SHRIMP DIED TO CO2" and stuff along those lines :X


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Yea, I recently sold my high tech 55 gallon setup along with my brandtii piranha and it sure was a pain. Now that it's gone though I just want another tank lol. I am so tempted to try the high tech with shrimp though, I have seen almost equal feedback from people saying they do it fine, and people saying that it won't work. This is proving to be quite a tough decision for me...


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## Snowflake311 (Apr 20, 2011)

I have DIY co2 drop checker is a perfect green not too light not too dark. I run it 24 7. My tiger berried up really fast after being added, I have yet to see the babie survival rate. But I have cherry shrimp in the tank and all my old ladies are berried right now. I had a good amount of babies too with the first batch even with Fish in the tank. 

C02 is natural. rivers and lakes will have some co2. We have it in our air. If you have a good natural balance no problems. With every thing in life balance is key. The co2 helps the plants, happy plants give off lots of O2 for the shrimp. It's if your system gets out of wack and you can gas your tank. That would be bad. With DIY co2 it's pretty safe IMO. 

I am no expert and like I said not sure what my survial rate will be with this tiger shrimp batch. But from the looks of my tank everyone is happy plants, fish and shrimp all are doing well. My dwarf Cory cats were getting frisky today. when I had sparkling gouramis they bred and I had fry growing in the tank. Fry are sensitive.

I have been keeping fish for 13 years plants for 5 and shrimp a few months. If you have experience you can make it work. Just don't start with high grades.

Master balance and all should be fine. Easier said then done.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Thanks, for the response. It's funny you say that if you have experience you can make it work because that's the way I've felt for the last few years. When I was first getting into Co2 I put so much pressure into it and was so stressed when I first got started, then you do it and it's fine. I think it's kind of a similar situation here. How come you think that DIY co2 is more safe? I would think pressurized is the way to go because you can monitor things and really pinpoint the rate at which it is being injected, no?


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

TRIG said:


> Thanks, for the response. It's funny you say that if you have experience you can make it work because that's the way I've felt for the last few years. When I was first getting into Co2 I put so much pressure into it and was so stressed when I first got started, then you do it and it's fine. I think it's kind of a similar situation here. How come you think that DIY co2 is more safe? I would think pressurized is the way to go because you can monitor things and really pinpoint the rate at which it is being injected, no?


DIY typically does not release anywhere near the amount of CO2 as a pressurized system can so you just can't screw up and WAY over gas the tank in the same fashion as you can when using pressurized CO2.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Ok thanks for the help and advice everyone I greatly appreciate it. I have one question left for you all. I see a lot of people putting what I would consider overkill filtration on their small 10-20 gallon shrimp tanks. I am a big fan of having more than adequate filtration on a tank however I feel like putting a larger filter such as an ehiem 2215 (or something along those lines) would create so much water movement on the tank that the shrimp would just be blown away. Is there something I'm missing here that people are doing to restrict water flow, or are filter of this size fine for them?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

With canister filters you can dial down the flow easily with the flow control knob.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> With canister filters you can dial down the flow easily with the flow control knob.


'Inline' hardware plumbed into the hosing of the canisters also will slow down the flow.

Inline heater, inline CO2 reactor, etc.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Why don't you go with a compromise? Use medium-low light, add CO2 for as long as it takes for the HC to carpet, then remove the CO2 and add shrimp. You can even do a dry start if you want. That way, you still get your nice carpet, but you don't need CO2 to keep it going.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Why wouldn't I need to keep the CO2 going? I'm pretty sure the HC would die off if I shut off the CO2 off altogether. I do like your compromise idea though.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

Another question I had was about different rocks for aquascaping. I recall reading something on here about how seiryu (not sure how to spell that) are toxic to shrimp. Are there any other types of rocks I need to look out for?


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

TRIG said:


> Why wouldn't I need to keep the CO2 going? I'm pretty sure the HC would die off if I shut off the CO2 off altogether. I do like your compromise idea though.


Nope it wont die off. It even grows without co2, although slower then ... something really slow. I think a lot of people blame lack of co2 for their HC dieing when I believe it to be other perameters. I couldnt tell you what those perameters to be though.

I know this because I had HC in my 20G tall with paintball co2 and all. I got rid of my co2, still had the same everything else in the tank, and the HC did just fine. It did pretty much stop growing though. I mean it still gew but at such a slow pace compared to having co2, that it was barely noticable.

Oh and as far as I know seiryu stone isnt toxic to shrimp, but has been known to increase GH/KH in tanks which may not be good for shrimp. Think about how many ADA tanks use that stone with shrimp in them.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

My understanding of it is that many of the rocks impact hardness (gH/kH).

Since you go to so much trouble to lower/limit hardness in CRS/TB/tiger tanks you don't want to turn around and use rocks that raise it right back up again.

So they aren't toxic to shrimp but they just don't suit the conditions of softwater shrimp tanks very well.

People obviously make them work since you Iwagumi set-ups with CRS in them that do fine but it just complicates things trying to balance out the increased hardness that the rocks create.

Playing around with water chemistry in a shrimp tank is a nerve racking endeavor so most people just set the tanks up in a fashion where they don't have to play with the chemistry at all.


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

madness said:


> My understanding of it is that many of the rocks impact hardness (gH/kH).
> 
> Since you go to so much trouble to lower/limit hardness in CRS/TB/tiger tanks you don't want to turn around and use rocks that raise it right back up again.
> 
> ...


Yes its super frustrating at times. I didnt know I was going to have to become a PHD in chemical science, fluid dynamics, bio chemistry, biology, and genetics when I got into shrimp/CRS. 

Anyway its my personal belief that a small amount of these rocks (seiryu, royouh, ect.) paired with active substrates will cause a significant alteration of water perameters. Well actually I cant speak for seiryu for sure (although I think I have some mixed in with my royouh) if it does or does not alter it much. But I know with my royouh rocks and ada aquasoil new it does not at all change permaters.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

GDP said:


> Anyway its my personal belief that a small amount of these rocks (seiryu, royouh, ect.) paired with active substrates will cause a significant alteration of water perameters. Well actually I cant speak for seiryu for sure (although I think I have some mixed in with my royouh) if it does or does not alter it much. But I know with my royouh rocks and ada aquasoil new it does not at all change permaters.


So, are you saying that the rocks DO have a significant impact, for the reason that they neutralize the change that ADA AS would normally have on your water? I Was just a bit confused because you say they had a significant impact on your water params, but then in your last sentence you say that the combination of the rocks and soil did not change your parameters.


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## james1542 (Sep 8, 2011)

Maybe get the plants going with a cheapo DIY CO2 system, then shut it down and add the shrimp. I ran CO2 DIY for awhile, but I got tired of the lack of breeding and random shrimp deaths. One day I added too large a scoop of yeast to the bottle and the heightened production turned the drop checker yellow over night. After pulling the CO2 it took a few days to get to the light green zone.. From then on I've been CO2 free. Yes CO2 occurs in nature, but pure CO2 gas is rarely being injected into the water column. I wanted to do the HC carpet at first with shrimp but eventually I realized it's about the shrimp, and have gravitated more toward the mosses, they are much less demanding, very diverse and you can do a lot of creative things with them. I can't even imagine trying to plant HC in my fluval shrimp stratum, the stuff is terrible for planting anything because it's so light. It seems shrimp like the flow, and if you restrict the intake properly to keep shrimp out of the filter, the flow rate will probably be restricted as well. Your other question should be ferts. If your going to do all out CO2 and lighting, your going to need ferts right? this can once again conflict with the goal of a shrimp colony. I use osmocoat capsules in the substrate and so far I haven't seen any symptoms of deficiency in my plants and to me it seemed like the safest choice for a shrimp tank. I've been running high light and no-CO2 for a few months now and algae has not shown up. My photoperiods under 8 hours a day, but the plants look great, their growth isn't super fast though.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

GDP could you clarify this please?


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## GDP (Mar 12, 2011)

Sorry, I have noticed no changes in water with royouh stones. However this might be due to the ada aquasoils active buffering. Also to touch on co2 and plants, I personally believe its useless and a lot of marketing. Like stated by james co2 does not occur at elevated levels in nature, so why would we need it at all? I do believe though it has to do with surface agitation and tension.

If you have no surface agitation you will not get a lot of co2/o2 exchange thus low levels of both. Thus slow to no growth of plants. Thats why co2 for the aquarium was invited. Although I feel its overkill.

Although I could see if some of these 'aquatic' plants that are really hybrids are somehow messed with, they might need more co2 if they were crossed with say marsh like plants where they have direct access to the air. But I dont know enough about that to do more then speculate.

My point is, if these plants are found growing in the wild without elevated concentrations of co2, why would they not grow in a tank without it given proper conditions?


Edit: I want to claify that it certainly DOES help plants grow faster and is good for the plants. Not disputing that.


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## TRIG (Jul 2, 2011)

alright, thanks for responding


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