# cambarellus shufeldtii - my saga



## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I rescued my posts about my dwarf crayfish pair since
milalic's SnS thread can only be seen by PTF members.
I'll continue to update this thread with new observations.


11-18-2007, 07:16 PM 

Just wanted to show off my berried female from
the pair you traded me. I was surprised to see
this given that the male tore off her right claw :eek5: 
_A mini version is already back after a recent molt._










12-10-2007, 06:40 PM 

I had a berried female 3 weeks ago.
now I got no berrys and no fry.
so what the heck happened?
they are in a slate bottom tank
with cherry shrimp and spixi snails,
and a dozen lava rocks to hide in.

*my dwarf Female*








note: wider swimmerets aka pleopods for holding and fanning eggs

*my dwarf Male*








note: pair of penile claws tucked under abdomen between rear sets of legs.

12-12-2007, 03:09 PM 

*milalic*, is there anything I should do the next time I see this female is berried, to make sure the babies make it to term? all I ever saw were those round blue eggs getting flipped around under her thorax. should I remove the male once she's berried, or wait till the eggs are less spherical, and more fry formed? Please help, as I was really looking forward to baby crayfish, and won't be selling any that make it to maturity online. they are in a bare tank with a few lava rocks, cherry shrimp, spixi snails, and a pair of otto's, that's why I'm 100% sure I would have seen any fry that survived by now, as I can plainly see 2mm shrimp fry, and I imagine they start life a lot smaller than dwarf crayfish do.

12-31-2007, 03:38 PM 










OK, I know this photo is horrible, but if you use
your imagination for a moment, you'll see it all.
I finally caught my crayfish copulating, and it
was really interesting to see. the male/female
face each other, the female goes limp as the
male holds her claws down, and locks his mid
section to hers. they stay like that for about
5 minutes, then release, and each goes their
own way. the event took place after a recent
molt just as I was finishing a water change;
that's why the photo is so murky, sorry :icon_redf

01-07-2008, 04:46 PM 

my female is with eggs again.
this time she found a nice spot 
in a moss sample disk to relax
away from the threatening male,
so hopefully I'll have fry this time.

Today I was concerned how the female was holed up in that dish,
so I removed the male to another tank. within an hour the female
was down and exploring the tank bottom for the rest of the day.
clearly there is some sort of hormonal signal being given off by
each sex - it's the only way to explain how she knew he was gone.
she's fanning at least two dozen eggs, that I hope will come to term.










01-14-2008, 08:42 PM 

eggs have gotten more developed
into clear bodies and black eyes 
the female has the whole tank to
herself, no fish, just cherry shrimp.
I just hope I notice the birth before
the mother feels like a live snack.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Good luck! Keep it updated!

-Andrew


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

Right, I too hope things go right for you. Please keep us posted.

Thanks.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I moved her to a breeder box today.
this way I will know exactly how many
babies I got, and can feed them and
let them molt once before releasing
them into a tank full of busy shrimp.
I'm sure Mom is not happy with the
maternity ward, but she's eating and
fanning her clutch, so she'll be fine.
you can clearly see the 2 eyes and
internal organs of each baby crayfish.
the light is only on for 6 hours per
day, and positioned at a 45° angle.
the marbles keep Mom from clawing
anything under the *V* shape bottom,
while her babies can easily fall thru.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

*4 Babies thus far, will update when she's done.*


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Very cool! Your photos are great!

-Andrew


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## AquaVu (Jan 11, 2008)

Congratulations on the new babies. I've just bought 6 Cajun crays a few days ago and I've spent hours each day watching the little critters. I've never realized how interesting these fascinating crays are. I've kept 10 different types of shrimps and tons of fishes but nothing could compare to these dwarf crays. Please keep us update on your new babies 'cause I have so much more to learn about these unique creatures. Cheers


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## AquaVu (Jan 11, 2008)

Here's one of my new blue Cajun. Can't wait until the babies arrive. First time that I tried to post a photo. Hope it works


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

Wow, thanks for the nice picture. You could frame that and put it above your tank.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

AquaVu, I hope you enjoy them while they are small.
once they get over 3", keeping all 6 could get dicey.



NeonShrimp said:


> You could frame that and put it above your tank.


why would someone want to look at a photo,
when they could simply look into the live tank? 

anyway...









I'm up above two dozen babies now.
seems she's taking her sweet time.
I'll post another photo once she is
done, and put her back in the tank.


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

Ha, ha, ha. It was a figure of speech. It looks so good it can be framed and put up on the wall. 

But now that you mentioned it, the picture would allow one to look at the animal without having to wait for it to come out of hiding

Congratulations with the babies!


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I think the complimentary expression is;

"your great photo is _suitable for framing_."

but thanks for all the encouragement roud:


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## AquaVu (Jan 11, 2008)

spypet said:


> AquaVu, I hope you enjoy them while they are small.
> once they get over 3", keeping all 6 could get dicey.
> 
> 
> The crays that I have is a dwarf type that doesn't get any bigger than 1.5 inches. 4 out of my 6 crays are already full size adults. That's one of their best feature. They are Cambarellus Shufeldtii or Cajun dwarf crays.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

OIC, yeah, I knew dwarfs were available in blue or orange,
but I could not afford to buy those, so good luck with them.

white is calcium powder. I want them to molt at least
once before I release them into my shrimp only tank.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Great pictures! It really shows how small they are when a cherry shrimp is next to them.

Do you plan on doing this with most berried females or is this a one time thing?

-Andrew


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Thats a great idea you got there spypet with the breeding cage. Couldn't you also use the other kind? the flat one with the holes in it? you know, the other type of the common breeding cage.

What kind of calcium are you using? I also have a berried female right now!


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I'm using pure Gypsum aka Hydrated Calcium Sulfate.
post a link to the breeder box you are referring to.
the one I used was cheap and handy, that's all.

you don't want your female in there for too many days.

the way you can time it, is to wait till her babies have
2 eyes and a dark square mass of organs between them.
the dark mass will appear to diffuse over three more days 
while the babies exoskeleton harden, irritating the female,
and that's the day the babies are let lose.

give the female a good day in the box to part with all her babies.
anything still attached to her pleopods after that are probably 
stillborn and will go away with her next molt.

don't be alarmed if you don't see her eating during this period.
the sooner you return her to her normal environment, the
sooner she'll settle down, eat, and finally molt days later.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have a pair of dwarf crayfish in a 24x12" bottom shrimp & snail breeding tank, and
within the first few days together, the male ripped off one of the female large claws.
two molts later it grew back, they mated, and you can read the rest on this thread.

from my on going experience, I can share the following observations.

- d.cray are really aggressive while acclimating to a new environment.
_even d.cray babies don't want to be near each other on their birthday._
- d.cray will lunge at shrimp, but very rarely catch and eat any.
- d.cray will inspect snails, but very rarely kill and eat any.
_both rare events can be avoided by reliably keeping food around._
- d.cray mood swings are often hormonal, so keeping only females
or only males, or only 1 pair, may help keep the peace in your tank.
- d.cray are not like shrimp - they need space to be and explore alone.
if your tank does not have lots of wood, rocks, and plant density, your
crayfish will keep bumping into each other, and damage or kill the other.

so don't worry about your shrimp or snails, just worry about making your
tank bottom into a complex enough obstacle course to keep the crayfish
out of each other's way. the easiest way to do this, is to get a dozen
2" square rocks, and place them loosely near each other, thus creating
a maze for crayfish to explore, find, avoid, hide, from each other. also
make a surface off the bottom for the d.cray to find when they need
isolation, such as during a molt. don't worry, they'll find the surface,
even if it's nothing more than a filter sponge or horizontal spraybar.

*example of a simple rock maze;*









*example of an off the tank bottom - sanctuary;*









*you could cover the tank bottom between your plants with leaves;*
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/shrimp/54486-leaf-litter-your-tank-all-done.html


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

today was a sad day for my invert tank, as the patriarch of my d.crayfish family died overnight.
it may have been age or difficult molt, so I'll just leave him for the male cherries to pick apart.










at least I have his progeny to care for. they seem about 50% bigger from birth, which is a relief 
since they were nearly able to squeeze through the slits of my breeder box. no sign of molting yet.










the babies seem to spar a lot, as I imagine it's unnatural for them to remain in such close quarters
so soon after birth. I really want to observe them closely a week longer before letting them loose.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Poor cray. He looked pretty cool too.

I was just wondering, where did you get the calcium you put into the breeder box?


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## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

spypet,

feed them in the box and most of them will survive. The largest percent is lost during first molt. Some of them will not be able to molt. If I have some time, I will post pictures of my breeding box.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I buy Gypsum from any brewery supplier since it's
much purer than the stuff used in plaster of paris.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=4832

while I'm there, I also buy yeast for my DIY Co2.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7033

Thanks for encouraging me to continue with the box
at least through the first molt. any in focus photos
you can post would be appreciated.


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

All I can say about this thread is AWESOME! 

Great log and photos. Also great innovations as far as rockwork, hanging rocks, maze, etc. Very cool!


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey spypet, do you think this would work too? http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7062


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...zing/44516-good-source-calcium-carbonate.html

Calcium Carbonate will add Ca (calcium) and will increase KH, 
Calcium Sulfate will add Ca and sulfate is needed by the plants.
_the Carbon in Carbonate would NOT be available to your plants._
so basically, pure Gypsum is the best way to dose Calcium for
your inverts, without effecting your tank's water chemistry.

If you were keeping Ciclids, and needed harder more alkaline
water, then Calcium Carbonate would be the way to go, but
you'd probably have plenty of Calcium Carbonate in your water
already from crushed coral substrate and limestone holey rocks.

*another week of growth;*


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Ahh.. I see. So I guess I'll get some pure Gypsum.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Hey spypet, what do you feed your cray fry? Mine just had some fry and I have no idea what to feed them.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Oh yeah, this is the breeder box I used. It gives the female to walk around.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

by definition, crayfish are scavengers.
so you can feed them anything handy.
however, if you want to spoil them, try;

*Tetra's ReptoTreat Delica Bloodworms*










another idea is to put pieces of these
vacation discs, which release food from
movement of crays just picking at them,
_not dissolving like old fashion calcium
suspended food does._











*most of them molted, some seem to grow faster than others.
I'll release them into my shrimp tank after the next molt cycle,
I want them to be the size of my smallest bottom feeding shrimp.*


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Hmm.. I'll just crush some pellets I guess.


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## aman74 (Feb 19, 2007)

spypet said:


> I rescued my posts about my dwarf crayfish pair since
> milalic's SnS thread can only be seen by PTF members.
> I'll continue to update this thread with new observations.




What's SnS and PTF? Curious as to what we are missing out on?

Thanks


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Planted Tank Forums
*PTF* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/

* Swap n Shop
*SnS* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/

* milalic's thread
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/41425-fs-dwarf-crayfish-cambarellus-shufeldtii.html

other common abbreviations
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...-glossary-terms-faqs-useful-links-search.html

* can only be seen by registered members while logged in.


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## aman74 (Feb 19, 2007)

spypet said:


> Planted Tank Forums
> *PTF* http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/
> 
> * Swap n Shop
> ...


Thanks! Much Appreciated.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

my wimpy female is acting kinda weird today.
she probably misses getting busy with the Mr.
in this photo are adult cherrys and a baby Spixi.










*get off o' my land!*










**snicker* you wimp.*


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## southerndesert (Sep 9, 2007)

Great photos! Thanks....

Bill


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Nice crays and shrimp. I don't trust my shrimp with my crays. Unfortunately, I saw a shrimp get attacked and killed and then eaten. I think I'll stop shrimp for awhile and focus on my crays. 

Btw, you said 40 offspring is a lot from one mom right? I counted at least 70 from both moms. They are getting bigger, but what should I be expecting after their first molt? Aggression perhaps?


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

well, Cherry's breed so fast and cost so little that I don't mind a little predation. if you are going to coop up all those fry in a breeder box, be sure to throw something in there, like a coil of rope or plant matter for them to climb around on and stay out of each other's way. they will fight, and you will notice some growing faster than others, but enough will survive to make the isolation worth the trouble. You see, I figure that the Cherry's get to a certain size of around half a centimeter before they are tough and confident enough to wander the tank bottom for food. So want to make sure my Cray's are at least that big before releasing them into the tank to fend for themselves. any sooner, and my larger shrimp might out compete my stubborn crays for food, and risk having the crays starve just when they need to eat the most.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Hmm.. I just saw some eat a dead one  I'll throw in some anacharis and java moss for them to crawl on. I also fed them crushed hikari invert pellets. They swarmed them.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

Sad news today in my shrimp/crayfish/snail tank.
my Female was found dead this morning. I can
only suspect molting problems, as the water is
perfect, food abundant, and there are plenty of
places she can go to be alone with her molt.

The only thing I can think of is I was not dosing
Iodine regularly enough, but the evidence on that
being a significant benefit to molting is inconclusive.
I guess I should run out and buy another bottle of
Kent's Iodine solution just to be on the safe side,
for the sake of my 2 dozen growing crayfish fry.











I'm sorry about this next crappy picture, but I just
wanted to illustrate the size difference between
two developing dwarf crays from the same clutch.
I think I may release the larger ones soon, and keep
the smaller ones in the breeding cube another week.
_and no, that is not just an empty carapace above._










It appears that out of the original 24 only 16 survive
in the breeding cage - but perhaps a few escaped
while they were still small enough to squeeze through.










I separated 6 of the smallest to put back in the cage
to feed and grow some more, and released the other
larger 10 to the bottom of my shrimp tank to fend for
themselves. the small appear blue and transparent
while the large are brown and opaque.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

Wow, crays grow pretty fast. How old are these fry? I want to get a range of time of when I should add them into my main tank. Do you think the fry can survive in a 10g with only two active crays? ( One female is berried and is always hiding the driftwood, and I just saw the other female mate so she will be hiding too. ) I'm also going to go on a mission to transfer out all my cherry shrimp since it makes me sad to see them die. 

What kind of gravel is in your tank? ( in the first pic ) and how do you dose kent's iodine?


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

I'm posting to this thread in _real time_, and since the birth announcement 
on 01/20 it would be three weeks since I decided to let half of them loose.

the iodine dosing is on the bottle. it's about 1 drop daily for every 5 gallons.

fry avoiding their parents has more to do with giving them lots of places to
hide and explore, while still giving them access to a food supply. if you look
at my earlier posts here, you'll find plenty of ideas on how to do that.










my gravel is Charcoal Soilmaster Select. between the gravel, rigid plants,
and that lava rock background, the crayfish have plenty of places to go.
I just added some black lava rocks to the bottom for even more hidey holes.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

wow.. your tank is amazing.. its not fair! Whats in the breeder tank btw? I'll find some stuff to throw around for them to hide.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

in my breeder box was just a twisted foot of nylon rope.

OhNo, after reading this, a breeder box may not be such 
a good idea especially with the 70 fry you claim to have.
http://www.petshrimp.com/discussions/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2753
it might explain why I went from 24 to 16 fry since birth.

_baby crays will kill each other at molt time,
especially if there is population pressure.
most crayfish only need opportunity to kill, not hunger. 
If over crowded, they are programmed to remove the 
competition or die trying._

so by confining the fry to a breeder box,
we are artificially creating over crowded
population pressure, thus encouraging
the fry to kill each other even more!

Mustafa runs a tight ship over at Petshrimp.com
so you can be sure what these guys post is true,
when left unchallenged.

I also searched around there for discussions on the
use of Iodine, and found nothing to substantiate it's
use with crayfish as a means to increase molt success.
they even joke about the "iodine myth" on the shrimp
section of that forum, so don't waste your money on it.

there is a lot of positive feedback on the use of
Fluval peat granules, or peat moss as a means of
making the water more acidic and tanin rich to
simulate the ditch environment these crayfish are
originally from, however I would not go to these
lengths unless you were exclusive breeding them.
If I was trying to breed the more expensive all
blue or all orange dwarfs, I would go to all that
trouble, just not with these common browns.

if you still want to experiment with peat, it's
best to confine it to a media bag and try it in
your canister filter, not down in your substrate.
since NY/NJ water is already very soft, and
neutral to acidic, it's less of an issue for us.


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## OhNo123 (Jan 8, 2008)

I see... I guess I'll be releasing these babies soon then. After I round up all my cherry shrimp.

According to drfostersmith.com, NJ water also contains a lot of minerals such as copper. Maybe thats why your crays died. My water is actually kind of basic. I believe it is around 7.6. I'm not sure, I'll have to check later.


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## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

at end user tap side water testing stations;
NYS Copper is 1.3ppm, and Lead is 0.15ppm
far below levels you need to be concerned.
getting your pH lower may be more helpful.


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