# Pressurized Co2 Setup for beginner?



## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

sometime cheapest will cost you more in the long run, and that is what this hobby is about... the long run.

Waiting is the key to patience... or something like that.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Let me clarify. I'd like to get into pressurized CO2 but I want something that offers a good quality to value ratio. The setup I'm looking at is this:

Milwaukee regulator with built-in solenoid and bubble counter
Milwaukee SMS 122 Controller
5 lb. Aluminum CO2 Tank

All totaled this comes to about $250 w/o shipping. Is that a good value or should I be looking at something else?


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## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

I just deletesd my bookmark to a cheap alt. hold on I get it up but that sound right. Actually sound low!


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## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

I believe this is the cheapest I could find. user DELETED link. This is the one i had booked for the longest. I was gonna go this route but CL came through for me.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

tyler79durdan is right by telling you that you will be much better in the long run by either getting a regulator from Rex, Sumo, GLA or even building your own. GLA even has kits with 5# and #10 CO2 cylinders and pH controllers if you want one. pH controllers really aren't needed. They are a luxury item. A timer and a drop checker works just fine. You may even want a 20# or 15# cylinder.

Most likely, if you get a regulator like the Milwaukee, Azoo, JBJ, 3M, etc you will probably want to replace the needle valve for a better one like the Ideal, Swagelok, Parker, Fabco, etc. The Azoo doesn't come with a bubble counter either.


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## Green024 (Sep 19, 2009)

Question: Do you really NEED the pH controller? 100 bones? 
I happen to be making it by without one, am i just lucky my fish are not dead from possible pH swings? 
I use the Ma957, and a drop checker to check the co2 levels at a glance. Once you get your co2 to a nice setting to bring out that nice green in your 4dkH solution, there is no need to tamper with any of it. Well, until the co2 runs out.


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## BMueller777 (Feb 5, 2008)

Durdan's suggestion looks great for what it is... pH controllers are usually around that price alone... Then making it a fully auto system... Which kind are you going for? What size tank is it on? 

I just did a semi-auto for about 150$... Of course not by using the standard CO2 tanks, 20 oz paintball tanks rather. Got a regulator off TPT for 90$ along with tubing (4$), bubble counter (5$), check valve (3$), and I'll be making a chopstick diffuser... Also (2) 20 oz tanks (40$) (5$ to refill both), timer and I think that's it... I still have to hook it all up though of course lol...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The Milwaukee is a good choice for value. I've been very happy with mine long term and I have several. The ph controller IMO is not necessary. The Milwaukee has everything you need just add tubing and a diffuser and your done. Shutting off the co2 at night is fine. PH swings are harmless.


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## BMueller777 (Feb 5, 2008)

Green024 said:


> Question: Do you really NEED the pH controller? 100 bones?
> I happen to be making it by without one, am i just lucky my fish are not dead from possible pH swings?
> I use the Ma957, and a drop checker to check the co2 levels at a glance. Once you get your co2 to a nice setting to bring out that nice green in your 4dkH solution, there is no need to tamper with any of it. Well, until the co2 runs out.



I'm wondering that too... I'm just going to sync it with my lights... Lights off = CO2 off vice verse... Do you have to have the CO2 levels at 30 PPM to have it work effectively? Or could you just have lower levels and still have it be useful?


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Left C said:


> Most likely, if you get a regulator like the Milwaukee, Azoo, JBJ, 3M, etc you will probably want to replace the needle valve for a better one like the Ideal, Swagelok, Parker, Fabco, etc. The Azoo doesn't come with a bubble counter either.


Can you post a link to a good needle valve?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I have 4 milwaukee regulators and never, ever replaced the needle valve. There is no problem with that. The milwaukee is a complete unit, you don't need anything else but tubing and a diffusor.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

That's good to hear. Some of this stuff gets a little pricey. The more affordable pressurized CO2 is, the faster I can make the transition. Are you using a PH regulator or just a timer?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

kcrossley said:


> Can you post a link to a good needle valve?


I'll be glad to. Rex and SuMo sell Ideal 52-1-12 valves. They are excellent! There is one on my regulator picture.
Ideal's site: http://idealvalve.com/
SuMo: http://sumoregulator.com/Contact.html
Rex has Ideal and Fabco valves: http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/CO2.html#needle

I've been getting Swagelok and Parker metering valves on ebay. They are mostly medium flow with 1/8" male or female NPT threads and either angle flow or straight flow. I like the ones with the Vernier handle. See picture below. I can't post ebay links.
Swagelok metering valve info: http://www.swagelok.com/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/MS-01-142.pdf 
Swagelok's metering valves: http://www.swagelok.com/search/find...g/id-10000276/type-1/rmid-10002278+4294967128


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

kcrossley said:


> That's good to hear. Some of this stuff gets a little pricey. The more affordable pressurized CO2 is, the faster I can make the transition. Are you using a PH regulator or just a timer?


Just a timer. Bascially you can run the co2 with the lights. You can also have the co2 startup an hour or so before the lights to get things going. That's probably a good idea in a big tank, but usually not necessary. There are folks here that use a timer, run 24/7 or use a ph controller. Either method works, but since the ph controller is extra equipment, expense, etc. it simply isn't necessary.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Wow, I just checked one out on eBay and those things are pricey. Why is that? Also, will these fit a Milwaukee regulator?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

kcrossley said:


> Can you post a link to a good needle valve?


The best I've found is an Ideal but at about $80 there pricey. I'm using Swagelok's they run about $50-$60 on ebay and come in a few different flavors you just have to get the correct fittings for whatever you buy. The Fabco NV-55 is another good one.

The second tier stuff like Clippard, Parker, and Milwaukee seem to be about the same build quality *to me* so it's all about price as you'll have to dink with those from time to time to keep the pressure correct.

- Brad


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I just looked there's a two stage Linde Reg on ebay for $39.99, a Swagelok SS-2MG-MH-SS11 for $39.99, and aquariumplants.com has Burkert 6011 Solenoids for $48.99.

So all the major parts for $130 and probably another $20 in fittings not including the bubble counter (JBJ $13.00 or build your own) and cylinder that still puts you in the price range of the cheaper single stage Milwaukee, Red Sea or kegerator rigs that's not got half the quality.

Or if that seems like allot of work one of Greenleaf's would still be in the ballpark.

- Brad


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Good info Brad. I have absolutely no problem building one myself, in fact I'd prefer it, but I would like to get some decent parts. I take it you're getting the fittings from the plumbing department at HD or Lowe's. So, to clarify, basically I'll need:

Regulator (one or two stage?)
Needle Valve
Solenoid
Bubble Counter
Brass Fittings
Liquid that goes in bubble counter (not sure what it's called)
Canister
Teflon Tape

Does that cover it? Also, I know there are a lot of choices out there, but if you or some of our more experienced members were building one from scratch, what brand/model would you get for each of the major components?

Kelly


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

kcrossley said:


> Liquid that goes in bubble counter (not sure what it's called)


 bubble counter fluid is called bubble counter fluid :hihi:
alot of people use h20, but you can use unscented mineral oil.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Okay, now that's a little too easy.


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

the problem with h20 is the bubbles rise quickly making it hard to count, and it evaporates.


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## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

And if you have a plastic BC like I do, you might be worried about taking the brass cap on and off frequently and poss. stripping threads, so Mineral oil would be good with a low count, cause you dont want an oil slick on top of your water.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> I just looked there's a two stage Linde Reg on ebay for $39.99, a Swagelok SS-2MG-MH-SS11 for $39.99, and aquariumplants.com has Burkert 6011 Solenoids for $48.99.
> 
> So all the major parts for $130 and probably another $20 in fittings not including the bubble counter (JBJ $13.00 or build your own) and cylinder that still puts you in the price range of the cheaper single stage Milwaukee, Red Sea or kegerator rigs that's not got half the quality.
> 
> ...


Just to get it straight. A Milwaukee regulator is between $75 and $85 at most places not $150. It already includes a solenoid, metal/glass bubble counter and needle valve. I have other regulators as well, but for value you really can't beat it. I have four of them and one is over 4 years old and still running perfectly. If you like to do the DIY thing that's great, but the Milwaukee is probably the most used regulator in the hobby and for good reason.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

How about replacing the needle valve? Is that really necessary?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

kcrossley said:


> How about replacing the needle valve? Is that really necessary?


Absolutely not. You can have an issue with any regulator, but I've never had the need to change the needle valve on the Milwaukee.


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## jreich (Feb 11, 2009)

from what i have read the only reason people replace the mil. needle valve is because of end of tank dumps.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> Just to get it straight. A Milwaukee regulator is between $75 and $85 at most places not $150. It already includes a solenoid, metal/glass bubble counter and needle valve. I have other regulators as well, but for value you really can't beat it. I have four of them and one is over 4 years old and still running perfectly. If you like to do the DIY thing that's great, but the Milwaukee is probably the most used regulator in the hobby and for good reason.


Sorry if I offended you I wasn't attacking you personally but I'll stick to my post though I'll agree with you about it being one of the most used reg's not because it's cheap but because it's the most advertised kit on the market and that most people just don't know better which was the point the this forum I thought?

1.) Amazon = $96.50
2.) BigAl's = $98.99
3.) DrFosterandsmith has switched to an Azoo model for about $120 but they used to sell the same Milwaukee.
4.) PetCo sells the Red Sea Kit's (pressurized and DIY)
5.) PetSmart sells the Hagen DIY kit.

Those are probably the top five online stores that most entry level hobbyists would know of. Your right the top guys sell it for about $100 but that doesn't include LFS's who for the most part carry the Milwaukee kit if they have anything at all which would have them marked up a bit higher say between $120 and $150. Ebay has them going for between $40 to $190 with the average being about $100.

~

As a comparison the Victor dual stage I'm using right now is about 15 years old. It's an big ugly brute that spent at least 10 years in a welding shop before getting put on ebay according to the liquidator guy I bought it from. I've had it about three years now and all I did was replace the old CGA-580 fitting with a CGA-320.

I've got newer C02 specific Victor(s) and Matheson reg's that I'm putting together but this thing is a tank setting on top of a 20# cylinder and I'm betting it will outlast me.

- Brad


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

kcrossley said:


> Wow, I just checked one out on eBay and those things are pricey. Why is that?


Some people sell them cheap (from 99¢ to $30) and some people sell them from $80 to over $300. I get the cheaper ones. I just looked and I didn't see any that I would buy. You just have to be patient and wait on the deals sometimes.



kcrossley said:


> Also, will these fit a Milwaukee regulator?


The Milwaukee regulator has a 1/8" NPT port and it requires a 1/8" male NPT threads on either the needle/metering valve or an 1/8" male NPT adapter for the needle/metering valve.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

bradac56 said:


> I just looked there's a two stage Linde Reg on ebay for $39.99, a Swagelok SS-2MG-MH-SS11 for $39.99, and aquariumplants.com has Burkert 6011 Solenoids for $48.99.
> 
> So all the major parts for $130 and probably another $20 in fittings not including the bubble counter (JBJ $13.00 or build your own) and cylinder that still puts you in the price range of the cheaper single stage Milwaukee, Red Sea or kegerator rigs that's not got half the quality.
> 
> ...


I wasn't offended it all - intentionally. I was simply stating that a Milwaukee regulator doesn't cost $150. So let me get this straight. You are quoting prices online (see your above quote where you reference ebay and aquariumplants.com) about building your own and then comparing the price of a Milwaukee at a LFS when you know the Milwaukee is available online as is most everything these days. Of course the forums are for giving your opinion, but just be accurate and don't compare apples to oranges. To say the forum is for people that don't know any better is insulting to me. Since I have four Milwaukee regulators and I've professionally installed them at least 10 times on very elaborate setups without issue.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

houseofcards said:


> I wasn't offended it all - intentionally. I was simply stating that a Milwaukee regulator doesn't cost $150. So let me get this straight. You are quoting prices online (see your above quote where you reference ebay and aquariumplants.com) about building your own and then comparing the price of a Milwaukee at a LFS when you know the Milwaukee is available online as is most everything these days. Of course the forums are for giving your opinion, but just be accurate and don't compare apples to oranges. To say the forum is for people that don't know any better is insulting to me. Since I have four Milwaukee regulators and I've professionally installed them at least 10 times on very elaborate setups without issue.


Huh? No I was trying to say this forum if for learning more about our hobby but take my statement as you will.

Good for you but the reverse is also true, you can't compare a single stage 'aquarium' specific regulator with a industrial build dual stage regulator it's apple and oranges there's no comparison on build quality and longevity. I'm sure there's a few exceptions Greenleaf's Smith reg's are probably close in comparison but it's also close in price.

I will grant you one exception my big brute can't easily be put on a 2.5# or 5# cylinder so it can't be hid behind a small tank stand. That makes it's usefulness limited to a big tank and stand setups. The Milwaukee outshines it there.

To each his own.
- Brad


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/h_bosman/4379697140/in/set-72157622829944660/

The Victor VTS regulators balance pretty well on a paintball tank. :biggrin:


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

kcrossley said:


> Good info Brad. I have absolutely no problem building one myself, in fact I'd prefer it, but I would like to get some decent parts. I take it you're getting the fittings from the plumbing department at HD or Lowe's. So, to clarify, basically I'll need:
> 
> Regulator (one or two stage?)
> Needle Valve
> ...


Hi Kelly

I don't know if you've seen this post or not. It's a DIY build showing different parts that you can use, wrench sizes, etc.

Take care,

Left C


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bradac56 said:


> ...
> As a comparison the Victor dual stage I'm using right now is about 15 years old. It's an big ugly brute that spent at least 10 years in a welding shop before getting put on ebay according to the liquidator guy I bought it from. I've had it about three years now and all I did was replace the old CGA-580 fitting with a CGA-320.
> 
> ... this thing is a tank setting on top of a 20# cylinder and I'm betting it will outlast me.
> ...


Tom Barr told me that he has some old Victor regs too that just keep on running. Some of his clients have Victor's too. 

Your description makes be think of an old song. It might last to the year *2525* or even beyond. :hihi:

I've had zero problems with mine. I'm glad yours is working great!

Take care,
Left C


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

hbosman said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/h_bosman/4379697140/in/set-72157622829944660/
> 
> The Victor VTS regulators balance pretty well on a paintball tank. :biggrin:


Shazam! That's a great way to do it!!


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## jeremy0247 (Feb 9, 2010)

hbosman said:


> http://www.flickr.com/photos/h_bosman/4379697140/in/set-72157622829944660/
> 
> The Victor VTS regulators balance pretty well on a paintball tank. :biggrin:


What do you have installed in the tubing going into your filter? Is that some sort of diffuser for co2?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

Left C said:


> Shazam! That's a great way to do it!!


Yep nice setup, I've got a couple of those VTS-253's that I'm not using right now but my brute is twice that size and weight it would topple that little cylinder over without some sort of support.

~

Once I get my 55gal discus tank up this spring I'm planning on using a slate tile background like the one wkndracer to hide that rig behind it.

- Brad


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Left C said:


> Hi Kelly
> 
> I don't know if you've seen this post or not. It's a DIY build showing different parts that you can use, wrench sizes, etc.
> 
> ...


Awesome! Thanks for the link.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

jeremy0247 said:


> What do you have installed in the tubing going into your filter? Is that some sort of diffuser for co2?


Yes, it's a ceramic diffuser on the output of the canister filter. It basically blows small bubbles of co2 out of the filter return into the aquarium. I'm not a big fan of bubbles everywhere but it's small, effective and inexpensive. I've installed it last summer and as you see, it's still nice and white. I haven't cleaned it yet. I'm sure it's got brown gunk internally like the hose does but, it hasn't affected performance yet. Below is a long thread talking about this one and another version called the Atomizer.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/90992-new-inline-diffuser-market-23.html


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Is this the same regulator Rex Grigg uses? http://www.wholesaledraft.com/imageviewer.php?imageName=1612.jpg


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> Yep nice setup, I've got a couple of those VTS-253's that I'm not using right now but my brute is twice that size and weight it would topple that little cylinder over without some sort of support.
> 
> ~
> 
> ...


Do you have a VTS 450 or something? They look huge.

I was quite surprised when the 253 it balanced well. If I would have known, I would have used a VTS 250 series awhile ago. Since I am limited for space I was hesitant to try a dual stage. When I finally decided to bite the bullet, I was planning to hold it in place with a velco strap or something. But, no need. Even when the bottle is completely empty, it balances well.

I wound up with three VTS 250 series now. I bid on a pair and won. One of the pair actually did fail, it started leaking out of the relief valve. I found that a rebuild would cost about $75.00 so, I decided to bid on a third instead thinking that if I won it for less than $75.00, I would be better off. The broken one will be rebuilt when I can't find Victors for less than $75.00. This summer, I will get a larger cabinet so I can use a normal co2 cylinder.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Where can I purchase a Clippard LED Solenoid?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

kcrossley said:


> Awesome! Thanks for the link.


Sure ... You are very welcome.

It may be Greek now, but it should make things easy when the time comes.

This particular DIY is for single and dual stage regulators that have their output at 6 or 7 o'clock. Regulators that have an output at 9 o'clock are a little different and there are several different ways to assemble them.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

If anybody is wanting to use a paintball tank with a standard regulator, here is the link for the adapter.

http://www.homebrewing.org/CO2-regulator-to-Paintball-tank-Adapter_p_52-1122.html


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

kcrossley said:


> Where can I purchase a Clippard LED Solenoid?


Contact sumo via email and ask for a quote for the solenoid. Explain whether you want parts to attach it to the regulator or run it inline. They are very helpful and have reasonable prices for clippard solenoids and the needed fittings.

http://www.sumoregulator.com/PostBodyKit.html roud:


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Okay, I've decided that I'd like use the following parts:
1. Cornelius Regulator
2. Clippard Solenoid w/LED
3. Swagelok Needle Valve w/Vernier knob
4. JBJ Bubble Counter 
5. Brass Check Valves

Where can I get all this stuff?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

kcrossley said:


> Okay, I've decided that I'd like use the following parts:
> 1.
> 2.
> 3. Swagelok Needle Valve w/Vernier knob
> ...


One place that you can get that valve is from Swagelok, but it isn't cheap. The 1/8" FPT medium flow part number in Stainless Steel is SS-2MA4-MH. In Silver-Mist Chrome-Plated Brass it is B-2MA4-MH. The last one is a custom order or you can get a B-2MA4 valve and install a NY-2M-K6 Vernier handle kit.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Do you have to purchase direct from Swagelok? I like your second option. What about the solenoid? BTW, I found the regulator. 

Thanks,
Kelly


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

You can order from Swagelok or you can look around for deals like I do. You have the part numbers to look for.

Momotaro (Mike) said that he had some Clippard solenoids last night. PM him.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

I'll toss out the corresponding prices so people have an idea on the cost of some of the suggested purchases.

SS-2MA4-4MH is $141.73

B-2MA4-MH is a call for availability part.

B-2MA4 is a $59.95 part

The handle kit - NY-2M-K6 is $21.02

None of these things are inexpensive. You could spend everyday searching auction sites for suitable items, but who has time to do that!  Save for the B-2MA4, your money goes a lot further with an Ideal valve. You have to look long and hard to find a valve as good as the Ideal within the same price point.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Do you have a link for the Ideal valve?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

kcrossley said:


> Okay, I've decided that I'd like use the following parts:
> 1. Cornelius Regulator
> 2. Clippard Solenoid w/LED
> 3. Swagelok Needle Valve w/Vernier knob
> ...


You can get almost that exact rig over at Greenleaf it's the "Choice CO2 Regulator" for $185 barring a different reg that's a pretty good kit.

- Brad


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Momotaro said:


> ...You have to look long and hard to find a valve as good as the Ideal within the same price point.


True, I have one and it's rock solid.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

bradac56 said:


> You can get almost that exact rig over at Greenleaf it's the "Choice CO2 Regulator" for $185 barring a different reg that's a pretty good kit.
> 
> - Brad


I think Sumo has a pretty similar one with an Ideal valve also.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

kcrossley said:


> Do you have a link for the Ideal valve?



http://www.sumoregulator.com/PostBodyKit.html

Ask for pricing via email for this as well. Considering the price of a good metering valve, the pricing on the whole post body kit is quite reasonable. They will sell you individual parts if you don't want the whole kit though.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Hi guys. I posted about the Ideal valve on the very first page of this thread with a link to it and where to get it. The OP asked about the Swagelok valve. 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/103518-pressurized-co2-setup-beginner.html#post1013710




Left C said:


> kcrossley said:
> 
> 
> > Can you post a link to a good needle valve?
> ...


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## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

YAH, I got my drop checker from Honk Kong today. Shipped on 2/22/10 - Received 3/05/10...

It looks like a drop checker!

I'm always excited about new toys!


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## fischman (Feb 22, 2010)

what can you guys tell me about the Victor VTS-200D. Is this a good reg?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

fischman said:


> what can you guys tell me about the Victor VTS-200D. Is this a good reg?


It's an air dryer that's good for three surgeries according to the following link: http://www.tcdentalonline.com/vts200d-18-p.asp

If you want, send me a PM showing what you are asking about. The part number that you posted may have a wrong number in it.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Here is a C model without the air dryer option. Any opinions Left C?


http://www.labextreme.com/detail.cfm?autonumber=48618


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

The VTS-200 line is the old discontinued model before they sold the VTS-250's some time in the 60's/70's(?). 
It should work but you would have to change the nipple out for a CGA-320 so I wouldn't spend to much on it.

- Brad


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

hbosman said:


> Here is a C model without the air dryer option. Any opinions Left C?
> 
> 
> http://www.labextreme.com/detail.cfm?autonumber=48618


That thing looks bad and they want $99 for it. 

There is no way that I would ever purchase that regulator or recommend it to anyone.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Left C said:


> That thing looks bad and they want $99 for it.
> 
> There is no way that I would ever purchase that regulator or recommend it to anyone.


Oh, I don't think that is the exact one he was talking about, it was the quickest example I could find. Just trying to make a funny about the air dryer thing.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

fischman said:


> what can you guys tell me about the Victor VTS-200D. Is this a good reg?



That model is pretty old as already mentioned. I guess it depends on the price and condition. You would have to change the inlet to a cga 320 and that can be very hard, you probably would need a bench vice.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

hbosman said:


> That model is pretty old as already mentioned. I guess it depends on the price and condition. You would have to change the inlet to a cga 320 and that can be very hard, you probably would need a bench vice.


A vice is mighty handy. Anything on a regulator that you have to take off is usually on there really well. Victors are designed so that stuff can be removed (they aren't glued on, like some), but they are still tough to take off.

You can stand on the reg and lock two long wrenches together to remove parts. That works if you don't have a vice.

PS: You should of seen my expression when I read that the VTS200 is good for three surgeries. :hihi:


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Lets try and keep this on topic.

Running through all the dual stage model numbers is more than tedious at times....


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I thought the point to the forum was the dissemination of knowledge related to planted aquariums for everyone in a non-hostile environment. Constantly harping about being on 'topic' and locking any thread that goes more than a few posts is less than inviting and is the main reason why allot of knowledgeable people are going elsewhere.

As far as I can tell this thread has been pretty much on topic since we are trying to help someone with there first C02 reg. 

EDIT: It might be tedious to you but to new members that find it hard to search for *exactly* what they need out of thousands of posts when they don't know what they need can be helpful and no one is forced to read every post.

- Brad


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

OP - kcrossley 

You need to buy what you feel most comfortable with, something you understand, and something you feel confident operating.

Going with something because a few folks say you should do this or that, or some people say this is best, or some folks say this is better, would not be a good thing IMO.

Don't be impressed with the part numbers, the links or the slick websites. 

Use the forums for ideas, but don't rely on them. Instead, seek out some outside sources and do some reading and research. Once you have an understanding of how everything works you'll be able to find the set up that is perfect for you. Wether you buy it or build it.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm leaning towards the Milwaukee Regulator, only because it seems like it's made pretty well and it's affordable. As I gain more experience I'm sure my toys will get better and more expensive. Right now, I just made up my first batch of Red Sea CO2 Bio mix. Quite frankly, it couldn't have been any easier.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Momotaro said:


> OP - kcrossley
> 
> You need to buy what you feel most comfortable with, something you understand, and something you feel confident operating.
> 
> ...



I believe the model number was brought up by fischman asking if it was a good regulator. Others responded after digging up some information. Another unrelated item happened to have the same model number and we kind of joked about it. If somebody asks about items and sources of such items and additional information, I think it reasonable for folks to offer such information.


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## riverrat (Jul 14, 2005)

I have not read the full thread but I cut my teeth on a Milwaukee Regulator. I use one I built myself now. The Milwaukee got the job done. Its not the best for sure but for 80 bucks with a solenoid (what they use to sell for) they will get it done. Little tricky sometimes to get steady bubble rate but with a little research and some help from Milwaukee users you should have no problems.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bradac56 said:


> I thought the point to the forum was the dissemination of knowledge related to planted aquariums for everyone in a non-hostile environment. Constantly harping about being on 'topic' and locking any thread that goes more than a few posts is less than inviting and is the main reason why allot of knowledgeable people are going elsewhere.
> 
> As far as I can tell this thread has been pretty much on topic since we are trying to help someone with there first C02 reg.
> 
> ...


Brad, I'm wondering ... does the following still hold true?











EASIER to READ VERSION


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## fischman (Feb 22, 2010)

Just to add my .02, I've found this site extremely helpful. I apologize for asking in this thread, however I thought it was appropriate considering the original topic. Thank you to all that looked into it for me. I'm going to keep my eyes open for something else, but I also have a well stocked garage with bench vises and the such, so I'm not too concerned about getting my hands dirty if needed. 

Left C - Thanks again, and I shot ya another pm regarding another regulator that I'm hoping might work out better.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

fischman said:


> ... Left C - Thanks again, and I shot ya another pm regarding another regulator that I'm hoping might work out better.


I got it and I've already mailed it. I put enough postage on it so that it would be traveling at the speed of light to get to you as quickly as possible.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I think it reasonable for folks to offer such information.


You are right, and I do, too. I did start to run off on a tangent though. Quite a few of these threads get pulled off on the very same tangent so I am just trying to keep the tangents a little under control...that is all. 

Left C:

You may have an understanding about dual stage regulators, however you understanding of the First Amendments application to this and other internet forums is sorely, sorely lacking.

See, the First Amendment insures that Congress will pass no law prohibiting the establishment of a state religion, prohibits the Congress from making, impeding the free exercise of religion, preventing peaceful gatherings, infringing on the freedom of speech and infringing on the freedom of the press. TPT and most other internet forums are privately owed entities. You are under discretion of the people who own the forum as you are using it as a vehicle for discussion. The First Amendment does not apply here on a privately owned internet forum. 

Now. The posting of the First Amendment photos. 

How can the moderating staff and the site owner/ administrator interpret that as anything other than an attempt to create a problem here on the forum? Mentioning the First Amendment? We'd probably let that slide. Posting one photo, again...no major deal. You'd get a message from us about it. Posting two photos with an: EASIER to READ VERSION? Well, that is just trying to create trouble and disrupt the forum. My inclination is that this is a plan to get yourself banned to try and start a "Save Left C" campaign, and not to play into it. But I'll bite, Cecil.

As this isn't the first TPT has had an issue with you, you are going to receive a temporary ban - 7 days - until we decide what to do with your account and posting priviledges here. 

My apologies to everyone. I know doing this in public is not the best form. However, just looking at the photos and the comments ask yourself....wasn't this what was being asked for anyway?


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Momotaro said:


> You are right, and I do, too. I did start to run off on a tangent though. Quite a few of these threads get pulled off on the very same tangent so I am just trying to keep the tangents a little under control...that is all.
> 
> Left C:
> 
> ...


You guys really take yourselves to seriously. Geez, lighten up. This is a forum about PLANTED AQUARIUMS, not religion, politics or world hunger.

My suggestion would be to re open the thread on Dual Stage Regulators so, that discussion *might* stay separate from other discussions.

I am not sure why you don't allow the thread to flow where it may. In this instance, the OP said in the end, that he will probably go for a Milwaukee. End of discussion, no more information about dual stages necessary, the decision was made by him. Now if somebody else asks about the VTS200D, is it wrong for us to offer an opinion? He asked for one.

Now what Left C did was just plain silly. Your reaction was even more silly. Lighten up people and play nice.


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## bobt2 (Dec 13, 2009)

i have the dr's f&s system for 120 and a 5 lb tank on e bay. im, up and running fine for under 200. i have it in synce with the lights


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Which F&S system?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Your points are fair, hbosman. The fact that you are clear headed helpd drive home the point. Your lack of theatrics is appreciated.

With all respect, hb, I will not consider my actions totally silly, however. I did not post the photos, nor did I attempt to incite. People do need to understand the difference between a public and a private venue. I'll admit that I might have read too much into it. It like having hand waved in your face.

I was doing my job here as a moderator. LC was PMed and he will be given the opportunity to explain to the staff. Our actions will reflect his.

We will consider re-opening the mentioned thread. Any re-opening will be with the understanding and that contingency that the rules that were put in place be followed.

Thanks for the comments. I sincerly appreciate it. I think you were well spoken and reflected the sentiment well. 

We should move on.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

"We should move on" that would be great.


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## bobt2 (Dec 13, 2009)

it's the dr's f&S semi-automatic system. still on sale for 116. all you need is a tank.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

> You guys really take yourselves to seriously. Geez, lighten up. This is a forum about PLANTED AQUARIUMS, not religion, politics or world hunger.


There is history here. No need to discuss further. Cecil knew he would get a rise out of us doing what he did. Guess what, it worked.

Cecil is a moderator himself. He knows better.



> My suggestion would be to re open the thread on Dual Stage Regulators so, that discussion *might* stay separate from other discussions.


I am going to preface this response with the following: I have no objections to the use or promotion of dual stage regulators or discussions involving them. I cannot speak for the rest of the staff, but I believe they all feel the same way too.

However, the dual stage thread you are refering too will remain locked for now. There were repeated violations of our user policy in that thread. It was becoming a virus and doing more harm than good. The need for this thread, although something that can be used for planted aquaria, is not intergral to the hobby's survival. 

Besides, Tom Barr has gladly accepted the thread and allowed its posting on his site. http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/6470-Dual-Stage-Regulators/page47?p=47503

Everyone can ebay link over there and can dual stage and build regulators to your hearts content.

Even better, why not start the thread where Cecil works himself, over in the CO2 section on plantgeek where he moderates. Surprised its not there to begin with.



> I am not sure why you don't allow the thread to flow where it may. In this instance, the OP said in the end, that he will probably go for a Milwaukee. End of discussion, no more information about dual stages necessary, the decision was made by him. Now if somebody else asks about the VTS200D, is it wrong for us to offer an opinion? He asked for one.


I agree, answering the question was legitimate.



> Now what Left C did was just plain silly. Your reaction was even more silly. Lighten up people and play nice.


Cecil is a moderator himself. He knows better.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

bobt2 said:


> it's the dr's f&S semi-automatic system. still on sale for 116. all you need is a tank.


That looks pretty good. Who makes the solenoid? How is the needle valve?


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## bobt2 (Dec 13, 2009)

i think its spelled azoo. it's not the perfect system, but i works for me in my 75


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## bkrivera (Feb 16, 2010)

i really dont think if u guys r right about the ph controller. the good thing about a ph controller is it minimize ph swings which u guys know,at the same time it makes your co2 tank last longer cuz of the cut off level. The meter doesnt only work as a controller or a ph reader it also give u an idea of the co2 in ur fish tank. for example if u have more then 3 kh any ph under 6.4 could harm ur fish and if the if the kh is higher it could severely effect ur fish. From my experience it is a good thing to have it saves on co2 and it let u know wats going on in ur tank


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with buying a pH Meter if you have the extra cash for something like that but it's a unnecessary part if your on a budget. It's not going to protect you from a EOTD like a dual stage reg and good needle vale will and under most conditions a drop checker is all you need for testing once the tank is cycled and balanced.

Also a solenoid on a timer will save you more C02 at night than a meter so it's just up to the individual person on whether he/she wants to buy something like that, yea it's a cool meter and does some nifty things but it's not necessary to a C02 kit.

- Brad


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

I wouldn't use CO2 savings as a reason to buy a ph Controller. It would take quite along time to realize a savings after spending the cost of the Controller. I could see reasons to have the controller but money savings definitely wouldn't be it.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

omg im so confused when it comes to this stuff and all the abbreviations is killing me more! okay. 

what i got so far is i need a 

regulator

timer

bubble counter

diffuser.


my only question is what regulator is your all time favorite thats the cheapest?

and what size tank do i need for a 30 gallon and how many BPM should be going?


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## thtsapaddlin (Mar 3, 2010)

I read a fairly old article online saying that it may be necessary to pump room air into the aquarium at night to ensure plentiful ambient O2 for the plants and fishes. Does anybody do this?


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

i have never heard that


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## thtsapaddlin (Mar 3, 2010)

The justification was that because plants' dark reactions consume O2 and produce CO2 fish may suffer from hypoxia when the lights turn off. Thus, when the lights turn off, if you've got lots of fish, you should pump in room air.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

thtsapaddlin said:


> I read a fairly old article online saying that it may be necessary to pump room air into the aquarium at night to ensure plentiful ambient O2 for the plants and fishes. Does anybody do this?


I keep enough surface turbulence from my filter return to minimize surface scum and to allow O2 replenishment in the tank water. Of course you don't want to overdo it or you will off gas too much CO2. You can use an air stone or powerhead to create this turbulence as well.


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## tyler79durdan (Jan 23, 2010)

hbosman said:


> I keep enough surface turbulence from my filter return to minimize surface scum and to allow O2 replenishment in the tank water. Of course you don't want to overdo it or you will off gas too much CO2. You can use an air stone or powerhead to create this turbulence as well.


+1 hbosman, I have heard suggestions of 02 @ night, but this is someones opinion, and not the practiced norm. I too keep surface agitaion via return pump, but not so much as to cause o2 bubbling. Works for me (plus i use pH controller hehe, snicker, snicker :hihi


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

To the OP:

You will find the people that frequent these forums are Aquatic Plant Collectors, DIY hobbyists, Scientists, Students, Artists, etc and they all approach the hobby from their own unique perspective. So sometimes you will get too much technical advise or sometimes not enough depending on who responds to your question. 

The title of your thread is "Pressurized Co2 setup for beginner" so keeping that in mind and that fact that you mentioned quality and price I recommended the Milwaukee based on my experience with these regulators long-term. 

I personally think the Milwaukee is a great deal because everything is attached to the regulator you don't need to add anything other than the cylinder and tubing. I would recommend a ceramic diffuser to distribute the co2, but you can also put it into the intake of most canister filters. The F&S system is similiar to the Milwaukee but doesn't have a separate control knob to help adjust co2. The regulator from F&S is an Azoo. I have personally found that regulator tough to get a low bubble count for a very small tank (nano) without alot of tinkering, but for most tanks it's fine out of the box. The F&S regulator package also has a plastic bubble counter that is placed inline not attached to the regulator. Some people like this since they can put it anywhere if they need to observe the count. I personally like the metal/glass bubble counter on the Milwaukee since it feels sturdier and eliminates another inline connection that could leak, etc. 

The reality is the Milwaukee regulator ($85), plus cylinder ($55) and diffusor ($10) can be had all brand new for around $150. A tough combination to beat. Just add a $10 timer and you can shut the co2 off at night and your pretty much set for much situations. 

Is the Milwaukee the best regulator in the world, probably not, but you don't always need a mercedes when a GM will get from 0 to 60 just as fast.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

houseofcards said:


> Is the Milwaukee the best regulator in the world, probably not, but you don't always need a mercedes when a GM will get from 0 to 60 just as fast.


Amen. ....and you don't need to get from 0 to 60 fast either.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Gatekeeper said:


> Amen. ....and you don't need to get from 0 to 60 fast either.


Very true, I actually changed it to 0 to 30 co2 ppm, but I think I'll stick with the 0 to 60 lol.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I bought a single diaphragm regulator off a beer equipment website. I think I got it for $80+ship. It's been running for several years now without any issue.


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## kcrossley (Feb 22, 2010)

Can you post the link?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

I think it was this one... it's actually $45.
http://www.beveragefactory.com/draf...tandard_double_gauge_beer_co2_regulator.shtml

Make sure to buy a solenoid, a needle valve and a bubble counter (diy) .. I think I saved $10-$20 when I bought all of the parts myself instead of buying the Milwakee package. There's a thread about Clippard solenoid & needle valve around here somewhere.


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

I have an azoo from F&S, I really like it. The price difference between the kit and the regulator only doesn't seem like a great deal to me though. I don't really know anything about regulators though


Edit: sorry I should have read the page. mistergreen- do you have a picture of yours? building a regulator sounds like a fin project.


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