# Hybrid shrimp?



## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

I was just woundering if there are some guide lines to identify some hybrid shrimps. Just in case in the future. 

Specifically some cherries or some crystals with other shrimp.

Does anyone have any pictures?


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Due to the lack of knowledge in the Dwarf Shrimp hobby it is hard to have any guide lines to identify hybrid shrimp. There are so many species that haven't even been described yet. 

Its a hard question to answer!


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Aren't they really all the same neocardina species anyway? Or are you talking about something other than color variations hybridizing?


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

yeah, lately i have been seeing some odd colored cherry shrimp. so i was woundering if it was hybridized with other shrimp like snowballs or stuff like blue pearls.

i heard others say its not but I have no idea.

i was afraid of that. i was hoping someone else before us already found out. 

well i'm having a hard time finding pictures of hybrid shrimp. just woundering how to id hybrid shrimps.


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Well the Cherry Shrimp, when mixed with its wild type coloring will have some offspring that display odd colors. These shrimp are not hybrids, they are just mixed with another color variant of the Neocaridina heteropoda.


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

well i was wondering about odd color shrimp lately. like some that have absolutly no color or some werid ones like the ones bandianban posted b4. 

is there a possiablity that those are hybrids?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dr.tran said:


> well i was wondering about odd color shrimp lately. like some that have absolutly no color or some werid ones like the ones bandianban posted b4.
> 
> is there a possiablity that those are hybrids?


You need to understand a few things. 

To our knowledge right now Cherries, Blue pearl, snowball, yellow shrimp, manami, "wild" cherries... They're all the same species but just different colors. They all most likely started from in some cases a hobbiests' tank who bred one or two that exhibited the same trait. That being said any color mutation could pop up because it is carried by a recessive gene that 99,.999999% of us do not understand yet. 

The majority of the pictures you are thinking of, and cases you are referring to are people's shrimp who have inbred for X number of generations and are exhibiting the signs of inbreeding for lack of a better term. Thats why these weird colors come out. 

That being said they are the same shrimp, just different colors. OR people took a normal shrimp and bred it for a desired trait like black or white. 

Hybrids do exist, but hopefully you will never actually see any. Pedro tried to create hybrids between Cherries and Pearls to see what would happen. He isolated specific pairs Male cherry and Female Pearl, and vice versa and nothing was produced after many months of the females constantly dropping their eggs. 

There are some pictures online of cardinia crosses, but I've never heard of anyone actually seeing them in person. I believe, the chance of actually getting a cross is much lower than most people hype it up to be, but the hype is good, because this keeps people from mixing the possible cross breeding shrimp and keeping their lines "pure".

Just some thoughts.. Not all information is 100% correct probably because I didn't take the time to reference it. 

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

That doesn't make sense if they are the same species but of a different color morph. If the are the same species, then they should be able to breed a cherry and pearl pretty easily.

Unless it means that with the color morph, it is linked with a gene that also causes some kind of fatal embrology whereby the egg does not fully develop. Which should then be recesive or that it is an incomplete domanice gene. 

But then that is a good sign that they do not interbreed. At least we can then keep several strains together. Ofcourse there is caution just incase if it does happen. 

Hmm... Thanks I think I'm going to experiment now.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

Many of those shrimp are quite easy to breed. I believe he is right that they are the same species and a different color morph. The difference in price is the result of cherry shrimp being the first color morph created. I think that the other ones are not as commonly found right now. If you have cherry shrimp long enough, you will notice many funny colored ones in the colony eventually.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dr.tran said:


> That doesn't make sense if they are the same species but of a different color morph. If the are the same species, then they should be able to breed a cherry and pearl pretty easily.
> 
> Unless it means that with the color morph, it is linked with a gene that also causes some kind of fatal embrology whereby the egg does not fully develop. Which should then be recesive or that it is an incomplete domanice gene.
> 
> ...


They're also varients thats why untill recently they where all like "var. red" and stuff.

Please don't "experiment":help: 

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Hmm... that brings up and interesting point. It may just be a large enough population that it may then cause other phenotypes to show up.

Well Andrew, I wanted to make an experiment to test out if they are then all of the same species by testing which one can then successfully breed together. Ofcourse it is not an 100% accurate proof test. 

But more importanly I can then determine if some of these color morphs are indeed recesive or gene linkage and if there is crossing over. 

Crossing over occurs during meoisis by producing new and different genes from chromosomes crossing and then mixing and cutting up new chromosomes. Like mixing and matching. The rate of crossing over is dependant on the distance between the genes known as MU or map units. 

Depending on how far they are from each other determines the occurance of the phenotype. Generally the closer they are, the less likely they are then to cross over so then it can them become a gene linked gene. Kinda confusing but think of it as buying one and comes with a free one. Such that for ex. red color gene also carries a reccesive gene for a disease. 

Also there are then interfence and what they call an coiendence coefficient which prevents or encourages the rate of such occurances respectively. Normally the rate of crossing over does not have a significant impact on the proportions of phenotypes at a large. However, with such events, it can then alter the entire population proptions. There are then entire populations in the wild of recessive genes where scientist beleive it is due to interfence or coiendence coeffcient.

So then by breeding and breeding I can then learn more about these color morphs.

I did so with fruit flies in an experiement in St. Francis college labs last year. I was then able to map genes and determine the rate of gene linkage. 

So I propose the same for these shrimp. We just finished an experiment last year in our rivers and our native shrimp. So I feel that it should be persued to learn more about the shrimps and its genes. Perhaps there is then some useful knowlege we can learn from this.


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Well what has been stated is not 100% true. Cherry Shrimp and Yellow Shrimp are the same species (Neocaridina heteropoda), but the Blue Pearl and Snowball Shrimp are a different species (Neocaridina cf. zhangjiajiensis). 

A scientific name is structured like this: Genus Species

Cherry Shrimp and Snowball Shrimp are the same Genus, Neocaridina, but are not the same species. And just because an animal is the same Genus does not mean they can hybridize. Tiger Shrimp and Amano Shrimp are both Caridina species, but they cannot hybridize.

I have been working to find what the color of Cherry Shrimp is linked to. I set up a few aquariums with 1 male Cherry and 1 female wild type Neocaridina heteropoda. So for I have only had 2 spawns from these tanks and have no conclusive data as of yet.

Mixing different species, like the Snowball Shrimp with a Cherry Shrimp will tell you nothing of the color traits because you are mixing species, not just color morphs.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Thanks DPF I can't always come up with all the latin names before I'm about to sign off... The spelling would have been butchered terribly. 

Dr. Tan, As long a you do it in a controlled system I would say go for it! I never assumed you majored in genetics:icon_roll thats why this is not suggested to most people because they usually quit after a little while, then sell all their shrimp, that would mean possible hybrids contaminating all the other shrimp collections...

But I think you will have no problem with what you want to try. I believe that there are more than 1-2 genes involved with the colors though and it is more complex than that.

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Oh I see now. The genus and species name I do understand. But I never knew they were 2 different speices. Perhaps I can then keep my pearls and cherries together.

Hahaha its ok Andrew, I don't really major in genetics but I am a bio/chem/ and hopefully if it works out, a math major. Yes I am tripple major.

My bio professor was from Columbia so shes very strict and crazy. My chem teachers are the best. Even though I go to St. Francis college, the science teacher are crazy. I went to NYU and Columbia for tutoring for my organic chemistry and even they never learn the stuff that I have to learn. 

But anyway, it seems fun to try it out. Perhaps all this time we were wrong and we can then actually keep cherries, crs, and pearls. That makes me pretty happy if I really can keep several shrimp in one tank now.


BTW Andrew, I also great with mechanics because I have 2 FAA lisences. bet u didn know that either! :hihi:


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

My wife and I both have Marine Biology degrees so this is of great interest to us! 

I am unsure of the abilities of Snowball Shrimp and Cherry Shrimp to interbreed. It is possible, but I have never seen reports either way, and I have never done any test with them.

But Dr. Tran, you can easily keep CRS with Cherry Shrimp and Amano Shrimp all at the same time with no worries at all. There are even a few more you could keep with them if you really want a diverse system!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Well close enough, triple major though... thats uncommon! 

I hope to major in bio/chem as well... I'll see how it goes.. two more years of highschool to finish off first. Chem in HS hasn't been all that great so far, the only fun thing was making DIY CO2 go booooom! :icon_lol: :icon_lol: :hihi: :hihi: Other than that so far its been, what energy level is this stupid atom and to write out it's electrons in noble gass notation. Fun:icon_mad: (My chemistry book just happened to be exposed to a full leaking Poland springs water bottle and is now twice the size it was before:icon_lol: )

You can keep quite a few species of shrimp together if you want most people tend to keep one type per tank. For my 55g I have plans to mix a good number of different inverts who can't cross. 

So let us know how it turns out!
-Andrew


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## wood (Nov 15, 2006)

The wild type Neocaridina heteropoda is where the Red Cherry Shrimp and Yellow Shrimp were derived from. Their colors were selectively bred to bring out the respective colors. How this was done I do not know. I do not have enough tank *at the moment* to do selective breeding. I do promise however to do a lot of selective breeding soon and keep many logs and data on it. 

The Snowball Shrimp and Blue Pearl Shrimp were selectively bred form the wild Neocaridina zhangjiajiensis. Once again the respective colors were selectively bred from the wild form. I do believe that both the Snowball and Blue Pearl were selectively bred out of Germany. I would like to find out who did it to speak to him. 

There are pictures also of hybridized Crystal Red Shrimp and Tiger Shrimp. These do interbreed, it is confirmed. 

I believe that the Genus of each species determines whether or not they will interbreed. However, it seems that the breeding order, whether low or high, will in the end be the deciding factor if they will interbreed and create a hybrid. For instance, a Crystal Red Shrimp and an Amano Shrimp are both Caridina but they have different breeding orders. The CRS is low, and the Amano is high. The Amano going through larval stages, the CRS does not. 

Here are some photos of wild-type Neocaridina heteropoda courtesy of Xema from Spain. Great photos Xema! (xema's website: http://www.aquatika.org )



























Here is a link of the wild-type Neocaridina zhangjiajiensis: http://www.petshrimp.com/snowballshrimpwild.html

Here is a link showing hybrid Tiger/CRS shrimp: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/accidental-cross-breeding-1884.html?t=1884&highlight=crossbreed


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

wood said:


> Here is a link showing hybrid Tiger/CRS shrimp: http://www.shrimpnow.com/forums/showthread.php/accidental-cross-breeding-1884.html?t=1884&highlight=crossbreed


Those aren't hybrids:icon_wink 

I'll try and find the link of the hybrids. There are CRS and tiger hybrids but they don't look like that:icon_wink .

Edit: Here is the link, Its the last one who is the hybrid. The other two are "red tigers" http://www.gerdvoss.de/Wirbellose/Tigergarnele_rot/tigergarnele_rot.html

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

dwarfpufferfish, I just read some of your other post and I see that you also plan to do a test cross. Seeing that you have inconvlusive results, I believe I'm going to have to try a dihybrid cross with a mystery condition for which red shows up. 

But I just plan to do something much more simple for now. I don't have enough funds or space because I still need to buy books for next semester. lol.

But I plan by the summer I can do a few test cross and see if these are a single gene that causes the colors. 

I really hope to have a very diverse tank. So far I think I see myself with a blue pearl, cherry, and CRS tank. But first I have to make sure pearls and cherry don't interbreed. As so do snowballs and cherries so I can make another tank for those too.

Andrew, if you think HS chem is hard, your gonna cry when your in college. lol.

My only advice to you is study hard and build good studying habits. Trust me, as much as I sound like a geek right now, it saves lots of agravation. Plus later on u can be a rich geek. lol.

Wow thanks guys for all the links and pictures. I realized I have a lot to learn because I can't tell the difference between the hybrids and pure shirmp. lol


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dr.tran said:


> Andrew, if you think HS chem is hard, your gonna cry when your in college. lol.
> 
> My only advice to you is study hard and build good studying habits. Trust me, as much as I sound like a geek right now, it saves lots of agravation. Plus later on u can be a rich geek. lol.
> 
> Wow thanks guys for all the links and pictures. I realized I have a lot to learn because I can't tell the difference between the hybrids and pure shirmp. lol


Not "hard" just extremely boring and repetitive. We've been doing a lot of reading out of the text book, which just became water logged:icon_roll so it isn't the most interesting class.

As for shrimp hybrids its difficult to tell the difference especially with all the selective breeding, but after a while you will figure it out:thumbsup: 

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Cool. Then in that case just make good study habits beacause it gets really really.

From everyones personal experiences, what is the most diversity of shrimps you have kept in a single tank? Also what types of shrimp?

I have noticed that on wood's site, pearls and cherries cannot be kept together. Wood is this because u have witness some interbreeding between these shrimps?

Also does anyone know if Malaya Shrimp can interbeed with cherries and other common dwarf shrimps?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Maylay are a Low breeding for to my knowledge so I would say no. Unless you have amanos them maybe?

-Andrew


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

dr.tran said:


> dwarfpufferfish, I just read some of your other post and I see that you also plan to do a test cross. Seeing that you have inconvlusive results, I believe I'm going to have to try a dihybrid cross with a mystery condition for which red shows up.
> 
> But I just plan to do something much more simple for now. I don't have enough funds or space because I still need to buy books for next semester. lol.
> 
> ...


So, you're a doctor? PhD? MD? DDS?


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

Just undergrade. but hopefully one day I can go to med school and get me MD. Notice all pre med kids say hope they get into med school. lol


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

CRS and cherry shrimps can also interbreed, although the chances of them doing so is very low and requires you to exclusively weed out one of the sexes. 

I've got pictures somewhere; I'll have to dig them out later.


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

IBN, I do not believe that to be true. I have tested it many times, have never even had a berried shrimp. I guess it is possible, but I have never had it happen or even hear of it happening. I would love to see the pictures and read any reports about it.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Please dig out the pictures IBN. Pretty sure no one has done it and its next to impossible, unless you manipulate the shrimp somehow....

You thinking of the Tiger/CRS cross that is in the link I posted a while back, or the Snowball/RCS cross thats in that German magazine? 

If not, lets see those pictures!!

-Andrew


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

You should have attended Aquafest 2007, when I discussed about it.  These are from pics I took...not from any magazine. The dominant population of the tank is a mixture of CRS and RCS, not other shrimps in there.

Underside









Feeding among the group. You can see the CRS and the cherry shrimps in the frame as well.









Presumably a female.


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

WAT?!?!!

I thought that was something completely safe. Well what is the chance in a tank full of both sexes of CRS and RCS. How low of a percent are we talking about?


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## southerndesert (Sep 9, 2007)

Currently Malaya are not known to cross with any other shrimp in the hobby due to the fact (as Andrew said) that the young are born as freshwater larva and take about 3 days to become "mini Shrimp" I will share more on this as mine have their young. They are berried now and one is due anytime.

Interesting subject you have going here..Thanks for a good read.

Bill


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Ibn said:


> You should have attended Aquafest 2007, when I discussed about it.  These are from pics I took...not from any magazine. The dominant population of the tank is a mixture of CRS and RCS, not other shrimps in there.


I need to sell a bit more moss before I can afford that plane ticket:icon_lol: 

But when you're in the Northeast I'll try and attend one of your talks, heard they're excellent. Maybe the AGA convention in two years? 

Are the shrimp fertile? Very interesting. If you ever need to get rid of some they would be neat to have:hihi: .

Thanks for posting those pictures!
-Andrew


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dr.tran said:


> WAT?!?!!
> 
> I thought that was something completely safe. Well what is the chance in a tank full of both sexes of CRS and RCS. How low of a percent are we talking about?


I've never heard about this before him saying it happened to him... So its like almost nil I think.

-Andrew


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## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

So there is only one shrimp in the entire tank that looks like that? 

It is possible this is a mutation and not a hybrid?

Did you add any new pregnant shrimp brfore you observed this shrimp?

This it the first I have ever heard of it!


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

The chances of it happening is very rare. Out of thousands, only 3 were produced. It's not likely a mutation since more than one was produced and no pregnant shrimps were added to the tank (the tank has gone through generations of straight CRS).


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

I have a tank full of RCS that I just added 10 or 12 CRS to. Do you think the CRS could still breed? This is a dumb question, but are shrimp smart enough to pick out their own species? I had no idea RCS and CRS could cross breed, and, although I am not particularly considered with creating hybrids, will this confuse the CRS?


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

You should be fine granted that there are both sexes of each shrimp in the tank. As stated above, the chances of it happening are ultra low.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

fishscale said:


> I have a tank full of RCS that I just added 10 or 12 CRS to. Do you think the CRS could still breed? This is a dumb question, but are shrimp smart enough to pick out their own species? I had no idea RCS and CRS could cross breed, and, although I am not particularly considered with creating hybrids, will this confuse the CRS?


I wouldn't change the knowledge that they won't (usually...) interbreed. The chance is like 1 in 100000 or some crazy number probably.

What where you putting in that tank IBN? :hihi:

-Andrew


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## dr.tran (Oct 8, 2007)

I still can't believe it was possible. just wow.

Hey does anyone know whast the maxium diversity of shrimp in a tank that can be kept with out interbreeding? I was checking planet inverts chart but you said pearl can be kept with RCS? 

I'm thinking of, pear, CRS, RCS, snowball, and possibly some colbat blue Maylay shrimp. I have a feeling this isn't a good mix though. So shrimp experts, can you please tell me which shrimp can be mixed. 

Also does anyone have any experience with blue maylay shrimp? Do they breed pure?


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

dr.tran said:


> I still can't believe it was possible. just wow.
> 
> Hey does anyone know whast the maxium diversity of shrimp in a tank that can be kept with out interbreeding? I was checking planet inverts chart but you said pearl can be kept with RCS?
> 
> ...


Probably better as a new thread..?

As for diversity I think around 10 with dwarf crays and stuff is possible... 

-Andrew


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Depends on how large of a tank you're dealing with also. True, you can mix dwarf crays into the mix also, but if there's not enough space for them, the other shrimps will have a harder time (since dwarf crays are more aggressive).

To be safe, I usually just stick Neocaridina (snowballs, pearls, yellow, cherry) with Caridina (CRS, tiger, bee, ninja, amano, and red nose) species. I try not to mix more than one species from each group together, but there are exceptions. Certain species require brackish water to carry out their entire reproductive cycle. You're pretty safe sticking multiples species of those together (amano, ninja, red nose).

You can get a pretty diverse population going with something like RCS, CRS, ninja, red nose, and amano. To top that off, you can go outside both genus and add others into the mix such as species of Atyopsis (singapore/flower/bamboo shrimps), Macrobranchium (just make sure you have enough space and no small slow moving fish), and finally your Cambarellus sp.


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