# Plants dying in a "newly setup" aquarium



## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this forum and this is my first post here.

I have a 2 month old 16G/60Litre semi planted tank and this is my first tank, the plants in the tank are not doing well and I need some advice on how I can get my plants to be healthy.

I've been using a "macro nutrient" solution made by my local fish store and didn't have much success with this, initially I though that this might be due to this being a new tank. After the initial 3 or 4 weeks also, the leaves were turning brown slowly. Seachem is one of the few Internationally recognized products I have available in India and I have ordered Seachem Comprehensive to begin with.

Following are some pictures of my tank and the details of the fish and plants.














































*Aquarium test results:*

Ph - 7.4, Amonia - 0 ppm, Nitrites - 0 ppm, Nitrates - 0 ppm

I've been doing the test twice a week using the API Master test kit and getting the same results with a 25% weekly water change.

I'm using tap water with a dechlorinator made by the local store.

*Aquarium details:*

Gravel bottom and lighting is on for around 10 hours a day

*Fish and snails:*

4 Harlequin Rasboras
4 Neon Rainbow Tetras
4 Black Phantom Tetras
4 Glow Tetras
4 Purple Chelas
2 Rummy Nose Tetras
2 Panda Cory
1 Sterbai Cory
1 Guppy
1 Ottocinclus
1 Zebra Nerite snail

*Plants:*

Dwarf sag
Giant sag
Amazon swords
Wisteria
And a couple of other plants I cannot identify

I know this is not a small post, but eagerly waiting for some responses on this.

Thank you,
Karthik


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

*Gravel only substrates not good for plants*

I don't see the pictures, but I'll take your word that the plants aren't doing well.

Not surprising. Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer. 

Fertilizing the water isn't good enough. Even if it provides plants with what they need, you're also providing algae with what it needs. And algae is far more adept than plants in taking up water nutrients. With soil, you provide rooted plants with a reservoir of nutrients that algae cannot tap into.

Moreover, some nutrients (e.g., iron, manganese) require the anaerobic environment that soil provides in order for plants to take them up. Plants can't take up iron from the water, because the iron is all oxygenated. Then, you have the decomposition of soil organic matter that provides precious CO2. 

All this and more is provided by soil. Clean gravel provides nothing for plants. People complain about the problems and mess of using soil, but those problems pale in comparison with trying to grow plants in a gravel substrate.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

If you have 0 nitrates, there's nothing for the plants to use. That's quite a lot of fish though, so I'm surprised nitrates are nonexistent, especially if plants aren't doing well... how big are they? Is the tank quite densely planted? A picture would be very helpful if you can get one


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

karthikt85 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm new to this forum and this is my first post here.
> 
> ...


Not sure why pics not showing up.









Your swords were grown with leaves out of water, spoon shaped, once you submerge plant those will die off and be replaced with leaves that look more like this. That’s just what naturally happens when a plant transitions from emergent growth to submerged. Looks like what is happening to hygropila difformis as well. I would cut your light back to about 6 hrs a day or put a dimmer on it and bring it down to about 60-70% intensity until plants transitioning is done.









The hygrophila corymbosa in that pic is showing signs of complete lack of micro (trace) elements, if your fish store had a macro solution they probably would have had a micro solution as well. You only got half of the ferts you need to grow plants. Seachem comp should take care of that. Your macro is probably just NPK, you also need iron, Ca, Mg, zinc, over a dozen elements to make a complete fert. With amount of fish you have most of the NPK you need will come from fish food/waste, which is why they separate those macro and micro, so you can adjust them for you specific tanks needs. Your tank has very undemanding, easy plants so you should only be dosing probably at 1/3-1/2 of the recommend rate until tank turns around and growth accelerates. 

Amount of light and amount of nutrients needs to be in balance with the tanks needs. To much light and/or to much fert while your plants are transitioning/stagnant growth will just get you a bunch of algae. But at same time you don’t want any fert element to be in complete depletion (see yellowing/chlorosis of corymbosa leaves) it looks like the one plant that’s trying to grow but it’s showing a complete lack of iron and other trace elements.

And as I stated above during transitioning and while your tank is completely deficient in micro nutrient you need to cut your hrs or dim your lights. Your just going to grow algae and quicken the death of your plants if you don’t.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Diana Walstad said:


> Plants can't take up iron from the water


Are you sure about this??? :|

I've been measuring Fe consumption in the water column for quite some time.
And also confirmed it is not reacting with PO4.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I have grown plants in many tanks with just gravel substrate . I used root tabs and liquid ferts . The biggest problem I ever had was trying to keep plants in the gravel till they rooted . Others expieriences may vary . I agree with DaveKS , follow his advice and see what happens . Just remember that nothing happens fast in this hobby .


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## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

Diana Walstad said:


> I don't see the pictures, but I'll take your word that the plants aren't doing well.
> 
> Not surprising. Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer.
> 
> ...


My Local store had most of their tanks with gravel bottom and they assured me that the plants would grow fine in this as well, initially I wanted a tank with some kind of planted tank substrate with a gravel top. Anyways, I don't want to tear this down now, and will try for few more months before throwing in the towel.



germanblueramlover said:


> If you have 0 nitrates, there's nothing for the plants to use. That's quite a lot of fish though, so I'm surprised nitrates are nonexistent, especially if plants aren't doing well... how big are they? Is the tank quite densely planted? A picture would be very helpful if you can get one


I would say that I have a medium planted tank and not a fully planted tank, even I'm not sure why the nitrates keep reading 0 and the plants are dying. I'm planning to add around 4 corys and a couple of rummy nose in the tank as it seems a bit empty now, hopefully this might bring up the nitrates a little bit and help the plants.

Adding the image links below, hope this should give some perspective.

https://imgur.com/Wj0DANx

https://imgur.com/wPjzB1Z

https://imgur.com/JPrAxMd

https://imgur.com/Ym7t4IP

https://imgur.com/6siJgxk

Bump:


DaveKS said:


> Not sure why pics not showing up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm guessing the're amazon swords based on the shape, but to be honest, I'm not completely sure that they are the amazon swords.

Unfortunately this is a all in one unit aquarium and I do not have the option to dim the light intensity, surely I'll reduce the lighting period now that I've started dosing Flourish Comprehensive.

If we see any improvements using Flourish Comprehensive, I'll go ahead and order the Flourish Iron and Flourish Trace, does that sound like a good plan?

Bump:


Leeatl said:


> I have grown plants in many tanks with just gravel substrate . I used root tabs and liquid ferts . The biggest problem I ever had was trying to keep plants in the gravel till they rooted . Others expieriences may vary . I agree with DaveKS , follow his advice and see what happens . Just remember that nothing happens fast in this hobby .


Sure, I agree and I hope I'll stay with this hobby for the long run :laugh2:


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Fluorish complete will probably get everything you need. They sell the additional iron and trace so you can add more if needed, with your easy undemanding plants you probably won’t need it. Start with adding .5ml fluorish every other day (twice a week) then once plant growth turns around you can probably move up to .75-1ml twice a week. Watch for excess algae growth and back off dosing if it starts. Watch that sprig of corymbosa and you’ll see color of growth go from that pale sickly yellow to a nice rich med green color. This change does not happen in 2days, will probably be 1-2wk so don’t go overboard on dosing if it doesn’t happen immediately.

You also need to get your nitrates up to probably 5-10ppm and keep them there with your NPK (macro) solution. Does this macro solution come with any analysis of chemicals in it? It would probably be good to get a phosphate test kit so you can monitor those as well. You want them to be at about .5-1ppm. I really can’t advise you on how much to add of your macro since I don’t know it’s breakdown or recommended dosing rate.

Fluorish......

Total Nitrogen (N)	0.007%
Available Phosphate (P2O5)	0.01%
Soluble Potash (K2O)	0.37%
Calcium (Ca)	0.14%
Magnesium (Mg)	0.11%
Sulfur (S)	0.2773%
Boron (B)	0.009%
Chlorine (Cl)	1.15%
Cobalt (Co)	0.0004%
Copper (Cu)	0.0001%
Iron (Fe)	0.32%
Manganese (Mn)	0.0118%
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.0009%
Sodium (Na)	0.13%
Zinc (Zn)	0.0007%


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Maryland Guppy said:


> Are you sure about this??? :|
> 
> I've been measuring Fe consumption in the water column for quite some time.
> And also confirmed it is not reacting with PO4.


Good point. I was going to talk about chelated iron, but then I didn't want to get side-tracked.

I'm not sure what you mean by Fe consumption? Iron could be removed from water either by plant uptake or precipitation out of the water as iron oxides. 

Exception to my earlier post: Plants can take _chelated_ iron up from the water. Most trace element fertilizers contain chelators (e.g., EDTA). Another exception would be tank water that contains a lot of humic acids, which are natural chelators. 

However, in nature and low-tech aquariums without the dosing of micro-nutrient fertilizers, the oxidized iron present in the water is not readily available for plant uptake. 

Indeed, I've started adding a micronutrient fertilizer to keep my floating plants, which don't have access to substrate iron, from slowly disappearing from my tanks. The floaters "green up" as a result and have been doing very well.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Diana Walstad said:


> Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer.
> 
> Fertilizing the water isn't good enough. Even if it provides plants with what they need, you're also providing algae with what it needs. And algae is far more adept than plants in taking up water nutrients. With soil, you provide rooted plants with a reservoir of nutrients that algae cannot tap into.
> 
> Moreover, some nutrients (e.g., iron, manganese) require the anaerobic environment that soil provides in order for plants to take them up. Plants can't take up iron from the water, because the iron is all oxygenated.


 Strange, because there are beautiful planted aquariums with gravel substrates.


Diana Walstad said:


> Exception to my earlier post: Plants can take _chelated_ iron up from the water. Most trace element fertilizers contain chelators (e.g., EDTA). Another exception would be tank water that contains a lot of humic acids, which are natural chelators.
> 
> However, in nature and low-tech aquariums without the dosing of micro-nutrient fertilizers, the oxidized iron present in the water is not readily available for plant uptake.
> 
> Indeed, I've started adding a micronutrient fertilizer to keep my floating plants, which don't have access to substrate iron, from slowly disappearing from my tanks. The floaters "green up" as a result and have been doing very well.


 ADA Amano aquariums have lots of unrooted plants and also plants growing above the substrate and dosing oxidized iron(III) oxide Fe2O3. How do the plants survive?


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I do not think @Diana Walstad is insisting that there is only one path in keeping aquariums.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Diana Walstad said:


> ...Not surprising. Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer.


Blanket statements like this will always be met with a stiff rebuke since they are not based in any real sense of reality. There are so many way to run a low-tech setup without soil that it really isn't even debatable. 



Diana Walstad said:


> Fertilizing the water isn't good enough. Even if it provides plants with what they need, you're also providing algae with what it needs. And algae is far more adept than plants in taking up water nutrients. With soil, you provide rooted plants with a reservoir of nutrients that algae cannot tap into.


I have never found algae to be able to use the inorganic salts we dose into the water column. On the other hand soil-based setups are quickly over-run with algae when using too much light or when the substrate gets disturbed due to the levels of organic decomposing material that is released.


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## sudhirr (Apr 12, 2019)

@karthikt85 I would agree with @DaveKS the plants are grown emerged in the farms and when we start submerged growth they will slow down and take time to adapt. 
Swords are extremely hardy plants. You should trim down the browning leaves and this should help the plant in focus on new leaf growth.


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## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

DaveKS said:


> Fluorish complete will probably get everything you need. They sell the additional iron and trace so you can add more if needed, with your easy undemanding plants you probably won’t need it. Start with adding .5ml fluorish every other day (twice a week) then once plant growth turns around you can probably move up to .75-1ml twice a week. Watch for excess algae growth and back off dosing if it starts. Watch that sprig of corymbosa and you’ll see color of growth go from that pale sickly yellow to a nice rich med green color. This change does not happen in 2days, will probably be 1-2wk so don’t go overboard on dosing if it doesn’t happen immediately.
> 
> You also need to get your nitrates up to probably 5-10ppm and keep them there with your NPK (macro) solution. Does this macro solution come with any analysis of chemicals in it? It would probably be good to get a phosphate test kit so you can monitor those as well. You want them to be at about .5-1ppm. I really can’t advise you on how much to add of your macro since I don’t know it’s breakdown or recommended dosing rate.
> 
> ...


Sure, I'll dose every alternate day until the growth picks up.

Unfortunately, the LFS macro solution is just a plain bottle and no list of contents are available, may be I should switch to some other brand so we know what we're adding in the aquarium.

Bump:


sudhirr said:


> @karthikt85 I would agree with @DaveKS the plants are grown emerged in the farms and when we start submerged growth they will slow down and take time to adapt.
> Swords are extremely hardy plants. You should trim down the browning leaves and this should help the plant in focus on new leaf growth.


Ok, I'll trim down the brown parts...

One question, if this is an issue of the plants being grown in emerged form, shouldn't they have melted back long ago, these plants have been in the aquarium for more than 2 months.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

I'd advise against getting more fish; your tank is already very well stocked.


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Edward said:


> Strange, because there are beautiful planted aquariums with gravel substrates. ADA Amano aquariums have lots of unrooted plants and also plants growing above the substrate and dosing oxidized iron(III) oxide Fe2O3. How do the plants survive?


They survive--and do quite well-- because the ADA iron fertilization loads the water up with iron. I don't know how ADA designed their fertilizers, but I assume that the iron is chelated. (If it wasn't, you'd find rust-like particles of oxidized iron at the bottom of the bottle.) In nature, oxidized (Fe+++) is often bound to humic acids (nature's chelators). This oxidized iron is converted by light to reduced (Fe++) in a process called 'the photo-reduction of iron." The iron is now available for plant and algae uptake. Oxidized iron in natural waters is limited, but that doesn't mean that it is non-existent. 

My book (pages 167-169) discusses limiting iron availability in the water as _part of a strategy_ to control algae. If rooted plants can get their iron from the soil underlayer, then plants have a tremendous advantage over algae, which depends on the limited availability of water iron. It's a strategy that I like to exploit.

My speciality is low-budget tanks with a soil underlayer that don't require CO2 injection, daily fertilizer dosing, copious water changes, and buying a lot of expensive substrates, fertilizers, and gadgets. Thus, I have no experience with ADA fertilizer, substrates, etc.


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## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

germanblueramlover said:


> I'd advise against getting more fish; your tank is already very well stocked.


Ok, may be I should either try to do a water change twice a month instead of weekly or increase the feeding from twice a day, that might help in bringing up the nitrates.


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

I have to say I am very skeptical of that test result - 0 nitrates - with so many fish and not that many plants... Perhaps the test was a dud? Hopefully someone else can weigh in on this but it seems strange to me they'd be so low.


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## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

germanblueramlover said:


> I have to say I am very skeptical of that test result - 0 nitrates - with so many fish and not that many plants... Perhaps the test was a dud? Hopefully someone else can weigh in on this but it seems strange to me they'd be so low.


I did a test just now and got the same result :|

Uploading the pic to this post as an attachment for reference, not sure to believe this or not :frown2:


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

karthikt85 said:


> Ok, I'll trim down the brown parts...
> 
> One question, if this is an issue of the plants being grown in emerged form, shouldn't they have melted back long ago, these plants have been in the aquarium for more than 2 months.


Way it was explained to me was it’s the environment plant has evolved in over the millennia. Marginal positioning at shore and emergent growth is its natural state. During wet seasons these area routinely flood but evolution has trained plants that within a month or 2 those floodwaters will recede, it won’t readily want to drop those emergent leaves because it knows it’s going to need them again in a month or 2. 

In our case those floodwaters never recede and plant eventually gives up and starts transitioning to submerged growth. Now go other way around, those submerged leaves are less rigid, heavier and don’t have the hardened outer layer that emergent leaves have. They’ll flop over on ground and quickly deteriorate and rot away and be replaced by emergent growth if you move same plant from submerged growth to emergent.

Most plants we keep in aquariums are actually marginal plants we force to adapt to our conditions.


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Thanks for nice explanation. Here's plant "logic"! I assume then that the 2-month-old emergent growth in the tank is still functional? This indicates that there's less need to discriminate against buying emergent-grown aquatic plants. (I have always wondered about this.)


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Diana Walstad said:


> Thanks for nice explanation. Here's plant "logic"! I assume then that the 2-month-old emergent growth in the tank is still functional? This indicates that there's less need to discriminate against buying emergent-grown aquatic plants. (I have always wondered about this.)


Stoma in emergent growth is set up more for gas exchange from atmosphere. In emerged state it gets most of its nutrients from roots, really not any nutrients in atmosphere. 

Most people would simply want submerged growth so they can avoid that transition period all together. I know I would and would actually pay a small premium more for a guaranteed submerged growth plant.


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## greenthings (Aug 29, 2019)

Make sure you are doing the nitrate test correctly, i.e, read the instructions. I had this problem until an API tech support person helped me.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

As others have said, it would seem to me that 0 nitrate would be a tough ask with so many fish and plants not growing. Will mention that shaking those bottles before testing (and I mean really shaking them) might change the reading you are getting. 




Diana Walstad said:


> Not surprising. Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer.


Not being a contrarian here, I own multiple copies of your book TEotPA and have championed it to everyone who comes in my store interested in planted tanks since I opened in 2007. But I have to disagree here that you *have* to have a soil underlayer. I have at least 4 aquariums currently set up for over 12 years with inert substrates, no soil, and the original plant colonies that I stocked them with, only much more full of plants now. It's a slower way to get from point A to point B no question, and I don't doubt that a few species that didn't work out for me might have with soil, but that's an awfully broad brush stroke. Certainly slow growth, but far from slow death in these.

My wife and I are getting hardwood floors redone in the next few months and this will be the largest water changes I've performed in AGES on these tanks. It's crossed my mind to just empty them and start over. I'd like to save the inert clay-fired substrates (Flourite & Eco Complete) in aerated tubs and reuse them. I've considered soil and would love to pick your brain about depth of it in a more appropriate thread. I typically do about a 20% change with much gravel vacuuming open spots every two weeks, so was thinking a very thin layer of soil under the 4-5" of inert.


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Not being a contrarian here, I own multiple copies of your book TEotPA and have championed it to everyone who comes in my store interested in planted tanks since I opened in 2007. But I have to disagree here that you *have* to have a soil underlayer. I have at least 4 aquariums currently set up for over 12 years with inert substrates, no soil, and the original plant colonies that I stocked them with, only much more full of plants now. It's a slower way to get from point A to point B no question, and I don't doubt that a few species that didn't work out for me might have with soil, but that's an awfully broad brush stroke. Certainly slow growth, but far from slow death in these.
> 
> My wife and I are getting hardwood floors redone in the next few months and this will be the largest water changes I've performed in AGES on these tanks. It's crossed my mind to just empty them and start over. I'd like to save the inert clay-fired substrates (Flourite & Eco Complete) in aerated tubs and reuse them. I've considered soil and would love to pick your brain about depth of it in a more appropriate thread. I typically do about a 20% change with much gravel vacuuming open spots every two weeks, so was thinking a very thin layer of soil under the 4-5" of inert.


Sorry, but owning my book is not the same as actually reading it and understanding the ecology involved. It's not for everyone.

Old gravel substrates that have accumulated a lot of mulm over the years can, indeed, support some plant growth. They have anaerobic pockets of accumulated organic matter. These pockets are especially good at providing iron in the reduced form that plants can use.

In my book, I advise against constant cleaning (water changes. excessive aeration/filtration, and gravel vacuuming), because it removes plant nutrients. Also, if the soil layer goes anaerobic, it can cause problems for plants and the tank itself. That's why I have always recommended covering a soil layer (particularly potting soil, which works great but consumes lots of oxygen) with only 1" or less of gravel or sand. People who want deeper substrates can layer the tank bottom with rocks, bricks, and sand _underneath_ the soil layer. Using 4-5" of gravel over a soil layer is a very bad idea; it will smother soil bacteria, kill plant roots, and possibly cause a soil meltdown. Better not to use soil at all!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Diana Walstad said:


> Sorry, but owning my book is not the same as actually reading it and understanding the ecology involved. It's not for everyone.


Wow! Fair enough.


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

There are several opposing things here between what Diana is saying and what Edwards PPS-pro system states.

*Right from the PPS-pro site*


> Substrate is what holds plants down, nothing more. Actually it is much more complicated then that, but we don’t have to worry about it because aquatic plants can uptake all nutrients from the water column. So why are there nutrient rich substrates on the market? Well, if I didn’t have any good fertilizer available then I go for such substrate to have better growth. Fortunately we have very good fertilizers today producing spectacular plants in any substrate, rich or inert, doesn’t matter. Any substrate you may like for its color or shape from any company or only plain river sand or pool filter sand, they all grow perfect plants.





> From years of experience aquarists know that in the long run killing algae doesn’t work. It comes back. What works in most cases is to keep plants healthy and algae will disappear.
> 
> First we need to understand that algae can not be starved to death. The theory about nutrient competition between algae and plants is false. Even if we get demineralized water, water with no nutrients, algae will still grow in it.



*From Diana*


> Gravel substrates cause the slow death of aquarium plants. If you want a low-tech setup and decent plant growth, you have to have a soil underlayer.





> Fertilizing the water isn't good enough. Even if it provides plants with what they need, you're also providing algae with what it needs. And algae is far more adept than plants in taking up water nutrients. With soil, you provide rooted plants with a reservoir of nutrients that algae cannot tap into.





> Old gravel substrates that have accumulated a lot of mulm over the years can, indeed, support some plant growth.


Something has to give.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

> With soil, you provide rooted plants with a reservoir of nutrients that algae cannot tap into.


If you cap with gravel how much soil nutrients easily leech into the water column with such a loose cap???


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## TMarquis (Mar 6, 2012)

karthikt85 said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I'm new to this forum and this is my first post here.
> 
> ...


Get the pH down to 6.5 - 7.0. Use RO water fortified with a liquid plant food. You might even pot your plants in a rich soil. Works for me. My lace plants never hibernate, or what ever you want to call it. with this setup.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

karthikt85 said:


> I did a test just now and got the same result :|
> 
> Uploading the pic to this post as an attachment for reference, not sure to believe this or not :frown2:


Call your fish store and ask them what’s in that macro solution. I think your nitrate test is bad. Have you been properly shaking solutions for couple minutes before using them?


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

You have to beat,pound,shake,rap that #2 bottle on the table edge,etc. I and others keep them rubber banded to an air pump . I have used an ultrasonic jewlery cleaner to shake it....lol


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## germanblueramlover (Jun 9, 2013)

Ah - so it IS the nitrate test that is the infamous one. I didn't want to suggest it without being sure but that was my suspicion.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

Just get a Salifert Nitrate test kit and be done with it.....Much easier to use .


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

TheDukeAnumber1 said:


> There are several opposing things here between what Diana is saying and what Edwards PPS-pro system states.


 It's almost as if there are multiple ways that healthy planted aquariums can be kept! :wink2: I've pulled my hair out trying to keep planted tanks with sand, plenty of members here have gorgeous ones, just to use one example. I come from the fish side of things and was a hobby breeder for many years before I ever read a book on plants. It became abundantly clear early on that water changes were paramount for healthy fish and their fry. Filtration and water flow have demonstrably improved my tanks. So I can benefit from the information in books such as TEotPA and not be a disciple of its methodologies. High tech with EI dosing and large volume water changes are about as night and day different from the traditional Walstad method as you can get. And there are a lot of ways somewhere in between that work for a lot of us too.


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> It's almost as if there are multiple ways that healthy planted aquariums can be kept!



Indeed I believe this is the case. I'm pretty new to keeping plants but the PPS-pro system has been working very well for me so far. I'll stick with the clean method vs the dirty method :grin2:


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> High tech with EI dosing and large volume water changes are about as night and day different from the traditional Walstad method as you can get. And there are a lot of ways somewhere in between that work for a lot of us too.


The large water changes required for fish-only tanks are much less necessary in a planted tank. Indeed, they--and other cleaning measures-- are detrimental, as they remove plant nutrients. My beef with 'high tech- is that it implies that plants are useless, decorative objects without function. I use plants to purify the water for my fish. Dirt is required to get plants to grow well so that they can do their job--protect the fish. Thanks to the plants, I don't have to mix fertilizers, employ filters, dose CO2, do daily/weekly water changes for my 10 tanks. (I change 20-50% water about once a month now.)

If I was dedicated to aquascaping or growing a wide variety of demanding plant species, I would almost surely use some form of a High-tech methodology. However, many beginners are just trying to keep plants alive or fighting algae. The "experts" are leading them to believe that they can solve these problems with cumbersome, demanding high-tech methods.


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## powhound84 (Jul 2, 2019)

*Plants dying in a &quot;newly setup&quot; aquarium*

Deleted


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

*High-tech advice*

If I were contemplating setting up a tank for the first time and leaning towards High Tech, I would advise consulting Karen Randall's Sunken Gardens. It's a nice, comprehensive book sold at a reasonable price. 

Ms. Randall, who I have known for decades, is not just a hobbyist who followed one prescription (e.g., PPP-Pro) and got good results. Rather, she has vast professional experience via the The Aquatic Gardeners Assoc. and international contacts. With a background in education, she compares the many different tank setup methods in an easy-to-read format.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Diana Walstad said:


> The large water changes required for fish-only tanks are much less necessary in a planted tank. Indeed, they--and other cleaning measures-- are detrimental, as they remove plant nutrients. My beef with 'high tech- is that it implies that plants are useless, decorative objects without function. I use plants to purify the water for my fish. Dirt is required to get plants to grow well so that they can do their job--protect the fish. Thanks to the plants, I don't have to mix fertilizers, employ filters, dose CO2, do daily/weekly water changes for my 10 tanks. (I change 20-50% water about once a month now.)
> 
> If I was dedicated to aquascaping or growing a wide variety of demanding plant species, I would almost surely use some form of a High-tech methodology. However, many beginners are just trying to keep plants alive or fighting algae. The "experts" are leading them to believe that they can solve these problems with cumbersome, demanding high-tech methods.


Problem is some people want a tank for other reasons. It's not all about ecology, in fact the aesthetic value is probably broader based since it's limitless what you can accomplish, while a soil-based tank is very confining to light intensity and the plants you can grow and the amount of rearranging one can do with soil. Most here will agree it's not a great substrate for beginners. Honestly it doesn't sound like you ever ran a "hi-tech" tank by stating the plants are useless and serve no function.


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## Diana Walstad (Aug 17, 2019)

Hmm, I thought this was a low-tech forum. (Apparently, I am in the wrong place.) I have never run a high tech tank, nor have any plans to set one up.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Asteroid said:


> Honestly it doesn't sound like you ever ran a "hi-tech" tank by stating the plants are useless and serve no function.


 What use or function plants have in tanks where fish waste is loaded by spoons in inorganic chemical form?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> Problem is some people want a tank for other reasons. It's not all about ecology, in fact the aesthetic value is probably broader based since it's limitless what you can accomplish, while a soil-based tank is very confining to light intensity and the plants you can grow and the amount of rearranging one can do with soil. Most here will agree it's not a great substrate for beginners. Honestly it doesn't sound like you ever ran a "hi-tech" tank by stating the plants are useless and serve no function.


These are great points.

As usual, things always need to be taken in context. I hope folks here understand the context of Diana's comments. That is a very particular method of keeping a planted tank. One should look up pics of those tanks to get a better understanding. It's not for everyone.....just like high tech planted is not for everyone.

With all due respect I will add that many of the blanket statements being offered are very much open to debate. If gravel slowly kills plants, I guess mine didn't get the memo (or read the $24.95 book!:grin2. And the same was true for my low tech plants in gravel that I kept for decades. I wish I had taken of a picture from underneath the tank, because ten years of root growth in a low light gravel tank is something to behold. 



karthikt85 said:


> *Plants:*
> 
> Dwarf sag
> Giant sag
> ...


These plants will grow just fine in gravel. They are easy and undemanding. Some would grow in a bucket in a closet. I kept plants like that plus crypts/anubias/ferns for decades in gravel. Slow healthy growth. 

Growing low tech plants isn't rocket science. Don't make it more complicated than it needs to be. As @DaveKS said, your tank is new and your plants are transitioning. You don't need to be chasing ferts. Your tank likely needs very little in macros, and very light micros as well. 

IMO, all you need to do is keep the light low, perform regular water changes, vac the gravel every so often, dose lightly, and you should be fine. 

And honestly, everything would probably be easier with a lower fish load. That seems like an awful lot of fish for that size of tank. You are creating a lot of organics. If you are going to keep that fish load, large regular water changes are your friend, for the sake of both the plants and the fish.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Edward said:


> What use or function plants have in tanks where fish waste is loaded by spoons in inorganic chemical form?


If you show me one of your hi-tech setups (with fish in it) I will do my best to indicate where on the fish waste comes from.


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## TheDukeAnumber1 (Sep 13, 2018)

Diana Walstad said:


> is not just a hobbyist who followed one prescription (e.g., PPP-Pro) and got good results.



It's "PPS-pro", and effectively my tanks are all "low tech" aside from daily dosing a small amount of ferts. It's cheap, easy, and I enjoy feeding my plants as I do my fish.


I'm not at a point yet where I'm wanting to read your book(at least not for $25) but I would be very interested in seeing photos of your tanks and general descriptions/histories of their progress. If you would make a tank log or if this is posted somewhere else I would be very interested to see.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Good grief, she's the published author of one of the few books most of us have read, I'd imagine.

All good points, and nobody is wrong. For perhaps the first time in history. 



Diana Walstad said:


> Hmm, I thought this was a low-tech forum. (Apparently, I am in the wrong place.) I have never run a high tech tank, nor have any plans to set one up.


This is a conversation about growing plants in aquariums in the low-tech forums and it wasn't other posters who brought it off subject. As you say in your book that I can't understand, plants need certain nutrients, and will grow if those are given. In 20 years of messing with planted tanks (far from scientific research) in my view the biggest by far is CO2. I no longer inject CO2 at the moment and just fill inverted bottles for now, would be happy to show photos. It's amazing what a 16 oz Sprite bottle can do! 

Before your rude comment I had only hoped to talk to you about what seems to work for me, and it's not short term results. I run deep substrates with thin soil upon set up and "passive CO2" in a 4 of my tanks, and I'd go so far as to say that if a plant was struggling these are the ones I'd move them to. It works for my plants. I sell enough to support my hobby and put literal pounds of common stuff in my compost weekly. While deep beds of soil and no water changes didn't go my way, I truly appreciated and changed my approach to things from your book. I didn't mean offense by telling you I was catering it into what works for me as an avid hobbyist.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I think daily dosing is high tech.


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## Edward (Apr 11, 2005)

Streetwise said:


> I think daily dosing is high tech.


 Micros or macros?


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

We use these terms: high-tech, and low tech, but maybe it should be high-maintenance and low-maintenance. My lights are advanced technology; my Apex Neptune is advanced technology. But all I have do to maintain my tank(s) is to feed and top-off water. So I am low-whatever.

My perspective is as an IT guy who runs networks, massive device management, etc., so if I have to worry about a specific system on a day-to-day basis, it is high-maintenance.

I’m not trying to judge or play gatekeeper on aquarium strategy, but Diana Walstad’s advice leads to lower-maintenance tanks. In my case that style is an antidote to the high stress of tech support I go thu every day.

Some may find the high-whatever approach the relief to their own daily routine.

Cheers all. We all like underwater life


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> As you say in your book that I can't understand, plants need certain nutrients, and will grow if those are given.
> 
> Before your rude comment I had only hoped to talk to you about what seems to work for me, and it's not short term results.


Yeah BRR I was going to stay out of this thread, but that comment to you was uncalled for. 

That and the hawking books for $24.95 in a thread that was started to help someone on a forum.............well distasteful to say the least.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Yeah BRR I was going to stay out of this thread, but that comment to you was uncalled for.
> 
> That and the hawking books for $24.95 in a thread that was started to help someone on a forum.............well distasteful to say the least.


I disagree. Her book was worth every penny, and she has not asked for money to give advice on this forum. If you guys are trying to drive her away, that is depressing. I try to do live-and-let-live on forums, but I don't want her to quit this forum.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Yeah BRR I was going to stay out of this thread, but that comment to you was uncalled for.
> 
> That and the hawking books for $24.95 in a thread that was started to help someone on a forum.............well distasteful to say the least.


I wasn't going to get involved either since it was in the low-tech forum, but the bashing of Hi-Tech, ADA without having ever used those systems was surprising to say the least. If there's a better way to achieve healthy plant growth for light demanding plants without limits in species and design I'm all ears. 

And yes selling books in someone's thread? What the...

Bump:


Streetwise said:


> I disagree. Her book was worth every penny, and she has not asked for money to give advice on this forum. If you guys are trying to drive her away, that is depressing. I try to do live-and-let-live on forums, but I don't want her to quit this forum.


Don't worry, you can ask anything on APC. They have given her the run of the place.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Streetwise said:


> I disagree. Her book was worth every penny, and she has not asked for money to give advice on this forum. If you guys are trying to drive her away, that is depressing. I try to do live-and-let-live on forums, but I don't want her to quit this forum.


Me neither. But just saying something don't make it so. All of these ideas are subject to debate and healthy discussion. Many here have had different experiences, and they are just as valid. 

And really, to me hawking books on this forum just isn't right.

If you want to help someone, offer your advice. But don't try to make a profit from it.

There is a sense of shared community here. We share our success and failures in the hope of advancing the hobby and helping others. To me that is the core of this forum and is what makes it what it is.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Asteroid said:


> I wasn't going to get involved either since it was in the low-tech forum, but the bashing of Hi-Tech, ADA without having ever used those systems was surprising to say the least. If there's a better way to achieve healthy plant growth for light demanding plants without limits in species and design I'm all ears.
> 
> And yes selling books in someone's thread? What the...
> 
> ...


Maybe you should ignore the low-tech forums here. I acknowledge that are are many approaches, so I do not post in dosing threads.

Cheers


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Me neither. But just saying something don't make it so. All of these ideas are subject to debate and healthy discussion. Many here have had different experiences, and they are just as valid.
> 
> And really, to me hawking books on this forum just isn't right.
> 
> ...


You make very helpful posts on this forum, and I respect your contributions.

These types of arguments are why I started that thread about substrate truce. Those of us who want simple dirt tanks want to do our style and and not get sales-pitched to go heavy-dosing/heavy-water change. This thread was in the low-tech forum.

I also wouldn't want to see dirt tank folks jumping into high-tech dosing threads trying to convince folks with complex setups to go with dirt. I've learned that most from the Discus threads.

It is just like how I am a sailor, and I never want to own a powerboat, but our club depends on having both powerboat and sailboat owners, and even further that you can't run a sailboat race without at least one powerboat, if not more!

If I had poured years of my life into writing a book about a beloved hobby, using science, I would hope to be so generous as DW.

Cheers


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Streetwise said:


> Maybe you should ignore the low-tech forums here. I acknowledge that are are many approaches, so I do not post in dosing threads.
> 
> Cheers


I usually do ignore them, but if hi-tech is erroneously discussed I have a right to discuss it from my OWN personal experience, not assumptions. 

BTW I have done low-tech as well and it works many ways from inert to soil, but there are many limitations. If your good with that, then there's no reason not to go that way depending on goals.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

This is just to lighten the tone.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Streetwise said:


> This is just to lighten the tone.


LOL, I'm on West Coast time right now so it's not bed time :grin2:

The whole nature of the forum is to share information and experience. I don't get involved in areas that I don't have experience in.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Streetwise said:


> Those of us who want simple dirt tanks want to do our style and and not get sales-pitched to go heavy-dosing/heavy-water change. This thread was in the low-tech forum.
> 
> I also wouldn't want to see dirt tank folks jumping into high-tech dosing threads trying to convince folks with complex setups to go with dirt.


I actually completely agree with you.

I have seen excellent examples of low/med/high tech tanks with a wide variety of substrates. I've said this many times. Show me a tank that is well presented with healthy plants and I want to know more. 

It's when one starts discounting the effectiveness of other equally valid methodologies that these things begin to fall apart. No question many have great low tech tanks with soil and little to no water changes. But on the other hand I can tell you 100% that you can have a great low tech tank with gravel/inert substrate with regular water changes as well. 

Having success with one method does invalidate the other. 

I happen to use inert in my high tech set up and know many who swear by it. But I also know of loads of high tech tanks that use soil and swear by it as well. The can both coexist.


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## karthikt85 (Sep 14, 2019)

germanblueramlover said:


> I have to say I am very skeptical of that test result - 0 nitrates - with so many fish and not that many plants... Perhaps the test was a dud? Hopefully someone else can weigh in on this but it seems strange to me they'd be so low.


 @germanblueramloverlove you were absolutely spot on, I wasn't doing the test properly...the step I was missing was shaking the Nitrate Test Solution # 2 bottle for 1 minute prior use, did that step and boom, the Nitrates are reading at 40 ppm.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Just read through this thread twice to be sure what's going on. Of course, it's the usual suspects starting drama where there should be none. And of course, I had to clean up the thread. Which is now closed because of your nonsense. 

Someone with little experience insulted Diana and she responded. Then others piled on. Posts had to be removed. What the heck is wrong with you people? Are you bereft of common sense and common decency? This is not Facebook where you can be as nasty and disgusting as your heart desires. There's zero reason for any of you to be so consistently awful.

By now, each of you know that insulting members of the forum is against our Acceptable Use Policy. Some of you love to complain to each other when moderators like me step in to shut down your rude, inconsiderate garbage. So let me be abundantly clear: Complain like children all you want but *STOP THIS NOW*. Don't insult other members. If you haven't learned this in your real life, you're going to have to learn it here. 

It's also common sense not to be a jerk to someone with more scientific planted tank experience than 99% of us will ever have.

Really? Insulting Diana Walstad and then getting bothered that she defended herself? You people need to find another hobby if you're unfamiliar with her work and if you can't handle calm conversation. 

Some of you look like ungrateful fools. Without Walstad's research and work we likely wouldn't have access to all the amazing planted tank-specific substrates on the market today. The people who developed those substrates? They modeled a lot of their work on what she made mainstream in this hobby. She's the only person in the US I've ever heard be credited as an inspiration for learning more by people like Takashi Amano. The only American I've ever heard be brought up as I've traveled and interacted with hobbyists in the EU and Asia - from shrimp nerds like me to aquascapers alike. No, she's not some omniscient being but her work is one of the primary reasons this forum and others like it exist. Don't get it twisted.

If you think someone is mistaken? Find a way to say it without being a straight-up jackass. Don't understand something? Ask questions and make it known that you don't understand. Have decent conversation with each other. Be welcoming. Good flipping grief.


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