# Substrate/Ph advice?



## slipfinger (Jun 8, 2016)

I don't think you can go wrong with BDBS. So many have used it with great success, its cheap and readily available.

Also it will not mess with your tap water parameters.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Yup bdbs will not mess with your tap parameters at all. Is what I use in both my tanks. If you are looking for a buffering substrate that will keep it around your tap parameters Controsoil will keep your ph around the 6.5-6.8 range. It will make your kh 0 though which is what it's suppose to do to buffer. So cannot go wrong with either. 


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Warpiper,

Welcome to TPT!

Yes, Turface MVP, or any of the calcined clay substrates as well as some of the ADA Soils will mess with the PH for a while, typically a couple of months or so if I am conciencious about adding bicarbonate of soda (baking soda / NaHCO3) weekly to increase my PH to my target level. It is hard to beat the benefit of high CEC substrates however.

10 gallon; low light; no CO2; EI ferts and Excel for carbon


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

slipfinger said:


> I don't think you can go wrong with BDBS. So many have used it with great success, its cheap and readily available.
> 
> Also it will not mess with your tap water parameters.


Hi slipfinger,

Thanks, that's good to know. Read a lot and watched a bunch of videos about ph and a lot of folks are saying to try to keep the ph around what your tap water is. Easier on maintenance and you don't have to keep fiddling with it.

Bump:


clownplanted said:


> Yup bdbs will not mess with your tap parameters at all. Is what I use in both my tanks. If you are looking for a buffering substrate that will keep it around your tap parameters Controsoil will keep your ph around the 6.5-6.8 range. It will make your kh 0 though which is what it's suppose to do to buffer. So cannot go wrong with either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hi clownplanted,

Thanks for the info on BDBS and Contosoil. What grain size would you recommend for a planted tank?


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Warpiper,
> 
> Welcome to TPT!
> 
> ...


Hi Roy,

Thank you, and thank you for letting me know that. It was a toss up between Turface and BDBS when I was starting the tank and I with with Turface because of the the CEC attributes but also because I already had it on hand. Nice tank by the way. I hope mine will fill out like that.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Almost all the aqua soils buffer to 6.8 closest to your tap


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

StrungOut said:


> Almost all the aqua soils buffer to 6.8 closest to your tap


Hi StrungOut,

Thanks, I'll check them out. :smile:


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Warpiper said:


> Hi StrungOut,
> 
> Thanks, I'll check them out. :smile:


I did not mean strictly ada, sorry if got that interpretation

ada amazonia, mr. aquasoil, contro soil, stinternational soil, 

possibly i do not know fluval's i think 6.4 can't remember, up aqua soil


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

I would avoid Fluval. Many report it doesn't last long and turns to mud sooner than later. The buffering lasts usually less then 6 months with that one where most others will give you a year or more. So many regret getting the Fluval. I recommend for bdbs the medium and for the Controsoil the fine. 

One thing to keep in mind the Amazonia soils most require to cycle them for a good month or two as they leach ammonia. The Controsoil does not leach amonia but requires a charging period where the first couple week it will bring your gh down during this time. After a couple weeks it stops and will keep from lowering your gh. It does this to store the nutrients for plants. 

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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Another option to controlling PH is to add a decorative sea shell to your tank. It will keep your PH close to 7. The shell is mainly calcium carbonate. It will dissolve in acidic water only and not at all in basic water. If your ph drops it will start to dissolve and push the PH up. At a PH of 7 it will stop dissolving and the PH will stabilize at 7. Since we are only talking about a 1 point PH change it will not have a significant effect on PH. Now if your water had a larger PH change it would have a larger effect on Gh. 

The nice thing about sea shells is you can easily add one for a test and if it doesn't work you can easily remove it. You don't have to change the substrate. Also if you are near a beach you can probably find something there. IF not you could go to a fish store and look at the available tank decorations. At my Local fish store I found a small page for a couple of dollars. A simple 1 inch shell can last last several years before it resolves away.


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## wendellperkins (Aug 6, 2017)

Warpiper said:


> I'm looking for a new substrate that will help keep my ph closer to my tap water. I currently have a Biocube 14 set up with Turface MVP for substrate and am finding out that it may be dropping my ph. I live in the Charleston, SC area and we have soft water. Out of the tap the ph is around 6.8 with a KH of 1 and GH of 6 based on an API test kit. My tank ph is usually around 5.2 but jumps up to around 6.5 with a 50% water change then drops down again. Currently I have a Betta, 4 snails, and some some plants. I've seen some mixed reviews on store bought and alternative (Turface, blasting sand) substrates. Any recommendations? Thanks.


I got a book called "ecology of the planted aquarium" and followed its directions. I used dirt from the backyard, mixed in a random sized handful of crushed coral as buffer and covered it with lava rock gravel the size of a b.b. 

I use tap water that comes out at 8.2. I have 3 2 gallon tanks and one 5 gal. It took a couple months to stabilize and the filter on the 5 gallon has crushed coral in it to add minerals. The tanks sit at about 7.4. The ph rises in the 5 gallon during the day and drops at night. I had cardinal tetras in it and they were happy. I recently pulled them out so that my shrimp population could build up. 

I use lights from an old reef tank and it is a little too much. I use water lettuce to shade it and suck up nutrients if I start to see algae getting ahead of me. I have co2 and all the high tech stuff, but I don't use it anymore. Dirt is working really well for me.









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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Charging the soil is easy and a one time deal. Takes all of 2-3 weeks. Corals or shells require a continuous effort. 

And the soil will buffer to a defined parameter and the shells may not. Just throwing that out there. The buffering capability will last a long time depending on useage. And you do not need to change out all when the time comes. Can do a small part to get the buffering back. 

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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

StrungOut said:


> I did not mean strictly ada, sorry if got that interpretation
> 
> ada amazonia, mr. aquasoil, contro soil, stinternational soil,
> 
> possibly i do not know fluval's i think 6.4 can't remember, up aqua soil


lOL!! No worries, I knew what you meant. Did some interesting reading of the different brands. They all sound pretty good.

Bump:


clownplanted said:


> I would avoid Fluval. Many report it doesn't last long and turns to mud sooner than later. The buffering lasts usually less then 6 months with that one where most others will give you a year or more. So many regret getting the Fluval. I recommend for bdbs the medium and for the Controsoil the fine.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind the Amazonia soils most require to cycle them for a good month or two as they leach ammonia. The Controsoil does not leach amonia but requires a charging period where the first couple week it will bring your gh down during this time. After a couple weeks it stops and will keep from lowering your gh. It does this to store the nutrients for plants.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Thanks clownplanted,

I've seen a few reviews on Fluval that say the same thing. I'll pass on Amazonia, I don't want to have to wait on another cycle.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Surf said:


> Another option to controlling PH is to add a decorative sea shell to your tank. It will keep your PH close to 7. The shell is mainly calcium carbonate. It will dissolve in acidic water only and not at all in basic water. If your ph drops it will start to dissolve and push the PH up. At a PH of 7 it will stop dissolving and the PH will stabilize at 7. Since we are only talking about a 1 point PH change it will not have a significant effect on PH. Now if your water had a larger PH change it would have a larger effect on Gh.
> 
> The nice thing about sea shells is you can easily add one for a test and if it doesn't work you can easily remove it. You don't have to change the substrate. Also if you are near a beach you can probably find something there. IF not you could go to a fish store and look at the available tank decorations. At my Local fish store I found a small page for a couple of dollars. A simple 1 inch shell can last last several years before it resolves away.


Hi Surf,

Thanks for the information on shells. I live in the Charleston, SC area, lots of beaches and shells. My biggest concern is not the ph out of the tap (6.8) but what the Turface does to the ph once the water is added. This morning it was down to 4.9 so I did a water change and its back to 6.1. It will slowly drop throughout the rest of the day.

Bump:


wendellperkins said:


> I got a book called "ecology of the planted aquarium" and followed its directions. I used dirt from the backyard, mixed in a random sized handful of crushed coral as buffer and covered it with lava rock gravel the size of a b.b.
> 
> I use tap water that comes out at 8.2. I have 3 2 gallon tanks and one 5 gal. It took a couple months to stabilize and the filter on the 5 gallon has crushed coral in it to add minerals. The tanks sit at about 7.4. The ph rises in the 5 gallon during the day and drops at night. I had cardinal tetras in it and they were happy. I recently pulled them out so that my shrimp population could build up.
> 
> ...



Hi Wendell,

Thanks. I'll probably do a dirtied tank at some point but for now I want to keep it simple. I had my Biocube set up as a reef tank for several years before we moved. I wound up finding some 4 pin 6500K compact florescent bulbs and replaced the 10 K and the actinic. Seems to be working well. I like your tank, I'm looking at getting some tetras for it once the ph settles down.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

clownplanted said:


> Charging the soil is easy and a one time deal. Takes all of 2-3 weeks. Corals or shells require a continuous effort.
> 
> And the soil will buffer to a defined parameter and the shells may not. Just throwing that out there. The buffering capability will last a long time depending on useage. And you do not need to change out all when the time comes. Can do a small part to get the buffering back.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good to know. :smile2:


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## wendellperkins (Aug 6, 2017)

wendellperkins said:


> I got a book called "ecology of the planted aquarium" and followed its directions. I used dirt from the backyard, mixed in a random sized handful of crushed coral as buffer and covered it with lava rock gravel the size of a b.b.
> 
> I use tap water that comes out at 8.2. I have 3 2 gallon tanks and one 5 gal. It took a couple months to stabilize and the filter on the 5 gallon has crushed coral in it to add minerals. The tanks sit at about 7.4. The ph rises in the 5 gallon during the day and drops at night. I had cardinal tetras in it and they were happy. I recently pulled them out so that my shrimp population could build up.
> 
> ...


After reading a little, I am not sure that soil is going to have the effect you are looking for. Baking soda to the water or crushed coral in your filter or tank may get you closer to your goal.

Anybody have feedback on that?
















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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> Charging the soil is easy and a one time deal. Takes all of 2-3 weeks. Corals or shells require a continuous effort.
> 
> And the soil will buffer to a defined parameter and the shells may not. Just throwing that out there. The buffering capability will last a long time depending on useage. And you do not need to change out all when the time comes. Can do a small part to get the buffering back.


I don't understand what you mean by a continuous effort. You don't have to burry it. Just set it ontop of the substrate. If you decide you don't want to use calcium carbonate remove it. You don't have to monitor PH and the shell to correct or remove when PH reaches 7. You just leave it in the thank 24 hour a day all year long. 

As I mentioned the solubility is PH sensitive if the PH goes up for some reason it does nothing. If the PH goes down it actives, dissolves and pushes PH back up. Its like the heater in your aquarium on a warm day the heater does nothing. However on a cold day the heater turns on and off as needed to keep the tank warm. 

One other note on KH and Equilibrium. While Equilibrium doesn not directly boost KH. It will indirectly . The plant generally need a bit more sulfur than they do calcium and magnesium. So sometimes the plant absorbs the sulfate and leaves the calcium and magnesium in the water. When that happens the Calcium and magnesium convert to carbonates and KH rises. Most KH test kits only have a resolution of 17ppm (about 1 degree). With these test kits you won't see any change in KH. However I have a Hanna instruments alkalinity checker with 1ppm resolution. In my tank I can see KH drop after a water change and then see it slowly rise during the week until the next water change. The change is small about 10ppm but it is there.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Surf said:


> I don't understand what you mean by a continuous effort. You don't have to burry it. Just set it ontop of the substrate. If you decide you don't want to use calcium carbonate remove it. You don't have to monitor PH and the shell to correct or remove when PH reaches 7. You just leave it in the thank 24 hour a day all year long.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good point with the gh indirectly effecting the kh. You actually can read lower than 17ppm with the API kh test kit. What I do to get a much more precise measurement is I add 20ml of test water instead of the defined 5ml. This way it takes 4 drops to equal 1dKH which equals to about 4.2ppm per drop. This is how I'm able to get a more precise kh measurement. With this method you would be able to see the change. 


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Warpiper said:


> lOL!! No worries, I knew what you meant. Did some interesting reading of the different brands. They all sound pretty good.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> ...


Everything st international is buying a clone of whatever they're making but with cheaper quality and lack of overall product quality

Literally they suck.....i do not recommend them at all


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

I don't understand why people are recommending buffering substrates, additives like shells or whatever. If you want to keep your pH the same as your tap, all you need to do is use your tap water and an inert substrate that won't change your parameters. Black diamond blasting sand (most people use medium grit I think) or pool filter sand would work well.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> I don't understand why people are recommending buffering substrates, additives like shells or whatever. If you want to keep your pH the same as your tap, all you need to do is use your tap water and an inert substrate that won't change your parameters. Black diamond blasting sand (most people use medium grit I think) or pool filter sand would work well.


Unfortunately planst consume nutrients and the chemistry of the water can change. And sometimes PH will change due to this. Most of the time it is a minor change and can big ignored or overlooked. But sometimes it isn't.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

geisterwald said:


> I don't understand why people are recommending buffering substrates, additives like shells or whatever. If you want to keep your pH the same as your tap, all you need to do is use your tap water and an inert substrate that won't change your parameters. Black diamond blasting sand (most people use medium grit I think) or pool filter sand would work well.




For those that need to modify their ph or other parameters and keep in a certain range then they are good for the species like certain shrimp that do better within the ranges these give if your tap cannot do. Other than that I agree especially just keeping your ph the same as tap just use an inert substrate. As far as plant uptake modifying ever so slightly these parameters it's so slight that it will do no harm to any livestock. Especially if you do your normal water changes. 


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## geisterwald (Jul 18, 2016)

clownplanted said:


> For those that need to modify their ph or other parameters and keep in a certain range then they are good for the species like certain shrimp that do better within the ranges these give if your tap cannot do. Other than that I agree especially just keeping your ph the same as tap just use an inert substrate. As far as plant uptake modifying ever so slightly these parameters it's so slight that it will do no harm to any livestock. Especially if you do your normal water changes.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I understand the purpose of the substrates, I just mean OP was asking about how to keep their PH the same as their tap, so I don't see why they'd want ahy of those special substrates.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Thanks everyone for your advice, information, and recommendations, I greatly appreciate it. There is a lot of experience and a wealth of information on this site. My main concern was the low ph I was experiencing with the Turface MVP and the big ph swings when I was doing water changes. This is my first planted tank and I want to keep it as simple as possible until I gain more knowledge and experience. 

With that in mind, I stopped at a local Tractor Supply Company on the way home to night and picked up a bag of Black Diamond Blasting sand ($8 and some change). I rinsed it out and replaced the Turface. I did a 50% water change and the ph has been hovering around 6.7. Normally at this point the ph would have dropped to the upper 5s. I'll have to see what the ph will be tomorrow. It was funny, while I was at the TSC the gentleman that was assisting me ask what I was going to do with the blasting sand. When I told him it was for my aquarium he smiled and said that they get a lot of people in buying BDBS for aquariums.


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Warpiper said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice, information, and recommendations, I greatly appreciate it. There is a lot of experience and a wealth of information on this site. My main concern was the low ph I was experiencing with the Turface MVP and the big ph swings when I was doing water changes. This is my first planted tank and I want to keep it as simple as possible until I gain more knowledge and experience.
> 
> 
> 
> With that in mind, I stopped at a local Tractor Supply Company on the way home to night and picked up a bag of Black Diamond Blasting sand ($8 and some change). I rinsed it out and replaced the Turface. I did a 50% water change and the ph has been hovering around 6.7. Normally at this point the ph would have dropped to the upper 5s. I'll have to see what the ph will be tomorrow. It was funny, while I was at the TSC the gentleman that was assisting me ask what I was going to do with the blasting sand. When I told him it was for my aquarium he smiled and said that they get a lot of people in buying BDBS for aquariums.




What I also love about bdbs is it does not stir up easily like say normal sand would. It stays put even for my bottom dwellers like my clown loaches and Cory cats. Also what I noticed compared to regular gravel is the plants root very good in it. So the plants seems to like it as well. Especially if you want to grow a carpet plant it works great as my pearlweed in my 20 gallon is spreading really good in bdbs.


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## wendellperkins (Aug 6, 2017)

Surf said:


> Another option to controlling PH is to add a decorative sea shell to your tank. It will keep your PH close to 7. The shell is mainly calcium carbonate. It will dissolve in acidic water only and not at all in basic water. If your ph drops it will start to dissolve and push the PH up. At a PH of 7 it will stop dissolving and the PH will stabilize at 7. Since we are only talking about a 1 point PH change it will not have a significant effect on PH. Now if your water had a larger PH change it would have a larger effect on Gh.
> 
> The nice thing about sea shells is you can easily add one for a test and if it doesn't work you can easily remove it. You don't have to change the substrate. Also if you are near a beach you can probably find something there. IF not you could go to a fish store and look at the available tank decorations. At my Local fish store I found a small page for a couple of dollars. A simple 1 inch shell can last last several years before it resolves away.


I really think the shells are worth some serious consideration. Look at my other post. Soil does not buffer all that much after a couple months. 

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## wendellperkins (Aug 6, 2017)

Warpiper said:


> Thanks everyone for your advice, information, and recommendations, I greatly appreciate it. There is a lot of experience and a wealth of information on this site. My main concern was the low ph I was experiencing with the Turface MVP and the big ph swings when I was doing water changes. This is my first planted tank and I want to keep it as simple as possible until I gain more knowledge and experience.
> 
> With that in mind, I stopped at a local Tractor Supply Company on the way home to night and picked up a bag of Black Diamond Blasting sand ($8 and some change). I rinsed it out and replaced the Turface. I did a 50% water change and the ph has been hovering around 6.7. Normally at this point the ph would have dropped to the upper 5s. I'll have to see what the ph will be tomorrow. It was funny, while I was at the TSC the gentleman that was assisting me ask what I was going to do with the blasting sand. When I told him it was for my aquarium he smiled and said that they get a lot of people in buying BDBS for aquariums.


Keep us posted. I haven't tried that method and would like to hear how it is going in a couple months.

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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

wendellperkins said:


> Keep us posted. I haven't tried that method and would like to hear how it is going in a couple months.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk


Will do. When I got home tonight the ph was sitting at 6.2. That is still a lot better than low 5's. I've noticed that the betta has been swimming around a lot more than usual as well. Not sure if that's because the ph is staying up or because the tank got re aquascaped and he's exploring. 

I'll keep everyone posted on the changes/stabilities. Thanks again everyone for your knowledge and advice. :smile:


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Ok, so changing out the Turface MVP to Black Diamond Blasting Sand didn't stop the ph from dropping but it does look like it showed it down. I got home tonight and the ph was down to 4.9. I just finished a 50% water change and the ph is back up to 6.2. I'll monitor it for a few more days and see what happens. The only other think I can think that may be causing the ph to drop like that over time is the piece of wood that I have in there. I read somewhere that wood can make the ph drop. The GH after the water change was 5 and the KH was 3. If the ph drops that much again, I'll look at adding some shells or crushed coral into the tank.


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

Wood can release Tannins into theater. Tannins are organic acids. However many woods don't have a lot and the effect diminishes over time since the wood has a finite amount of tannins. So I doubt the wood in your tank is doing this. You could also remove the wood from the tank for a few days to see if it is causing the drop. Also the new sand in your tank is inert so it should not be causing the PH drop.

One possible explanation for your PH drop is the loss of potassium in the water.. Plants need potassium as well as calcium and magnesiumto grow. As the potassium levels drop acids (such as CO2) will play a bigger role in your PH. And as a result PH would drop. When you do a water change you replenish the potassium. 

I looked up the Charleston water quality report. While it didn't list potassium it did list:
TDS (total dissolved solids)=97ppm
GH (General Hardness)=57ppm
KH (Alkalinity)=29ppm

This is very soft water. There probably are not enough elements in the water to support plant growth in the aquarium for more than a few days. I would recommend adding a GH booster to your water at every water change. Use at least enough to boost the GH by two degree (35.6ppm). This would make your water soft instead of very soft. I would recommend using sachem Equilibrium GH booster. It contains potassium, calcium, magnesium and sulfur which is probably laking in your water and plants need all of these to grow. I would also add a decorative sea shell.

The combine of the Equilibrium would probably result in better plant growth and with the sea shell it would help stabilize pH.


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## Warpiper (Jul 2, 2017)

Surf said:


> Wood can release Tannins into theater. Tannins are organic acids. However many woods don't have a lot and the effect diminishes over time since the wood has a finite amount of tannins. So I doubt the wood in your tank is doing this. You could also remove the wood from the tank for a few days to see if it is causing the drop. Also the new sand in your tank is inert so it should not be causing the PH drop.
> 
> One possible explanation for your PH drop is the loss of potassium in the water.. Plants need potassium as well as calcium and magnesiumto grow. As the potassium levels drop acids (such as CO2) will play a bigger role in your PH. And as a result PH would drop. When you do a water change you replenish the potassium.
> 
> ...


Hi Surf,

Thanks. Sorry for the delay. We lost our ac for 2 weeks and the computer fried in the 90+ temp. Lost the snails and some of the plants too.
Thank you for the advice. I picked up some crushed oyster shell yesterday and put a 1/4 cup of it into a media bag and did a water change. I'll get some equilibrium soon. I did a 50% water change yesterday and the ph settled at 6.19. Tonight it's 5.82. I'll have to wait and see if the oyster shells make a difference. If not, I'll ad another 1/4 cup.


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