# Hagen CO2 diffuser



## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

Ken, no, the bubbles should smoothly slide up, back and forth, up to the top. At that point they will be quite small, and will escape and float to the surface.
You might wanna pull it out and wash it off, if you didn't do that in the first place. If you did, give it 24 hours. The plastic might have too much friction, but it won't take long for a little slime coat and invisible algae to form on it, making a slick surface for the bubbles to slide up.

also, make sure it's perfectly level. if the bubbles seem to stick only on one side, that'd indicate it's not level.


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## Sumpin'fishy (Nov 4, 2003)

That is completely normal for that diffusor for the first day or two. Give it that amount of time and things will be just fine.


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## EvilKen (Oct 22, 2003)

koo, thanks for the quick reply. I just set it up maybe 6 hours ago, so i will just wait and see how it goes.

thanks again.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

What is your bubble rate?
I set mine up on Sat eve, and got no bubbles for approx 18 hrs.
Now I'm getting no more than 1 bubble every minute or so. 
Will this increase?


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## majik1 (Nov 16, 2003)

then somethings not right eds....unless the diffuser is in very deep water requiring lots of pressure to make a bubble......


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

I have a 30g, and the diffuser is probably at the bottom 1/2.
Should I move it closer to the top?
The tank is on a standard wrought iron stand - maybe 2.5' off the floor, and the reactor canister is on the floor behind and below the tank. I cut the hose down, but there is still considerable slack.
Any ideas on trouble shooting?
Might I have used too warm water? It definitely was not hot to the touch. Just slightly warmer than my tank temp.
How fast do your bubbles come? How many do you have on the ramp at one time? I have one bubble go through the ramp. Then wait a bit. Then another bubble.


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## EvilKen (Oct 22, 2003)

Ed, I get approx 2 or either 3 bubbles on the diffuser at each time. It took about 3 days since I set it up for it to reach this level. At first the bubbles would travel up quite fast through the diffuser and not get noticeably smaller, but now they travel a lot slower and the bubbles are noticable much smaller than when they are first released. 
I would recommend you let the setup "break in" for a few more days before worrying.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Thanks. 
I was also going to comment that the bubbles don't seem to get much smaller.
The documentation said wait 24-48 hrs for optimum performance.
I'll give it some more time.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

Typically you'll see a bubble within 12 hours, but during that time the yeast is still propagating and multiplying. after about 48 hours you should see the 'typical' rate.
I'm able to get mine up to 2 bubbles per second, and I keep it down low in the tank.
here's a few yeast 'start up' tips:
1. put your yeast in a half cup of 85 degree water for 10-20 mins. just pour it in and leave it..do NOT stir it
2. after 10-20 mins, pour it into the jug/container with the sugar/water solution, which should also be about 80-85 degrees.
3. give it a very vigorous shaking, for 30 seconds...to really aerate the hell out of if. (be careful as it will build up a little pressure from shaking a warm liquid)
4. make sure the temp of the room doesn't get too cold at night...yeast likes it no cooler than 65 degrees. If it does get real cold, wrap the container in a blanket to insulate it.


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Move the diffuser to the top of the tank -- too much pressure to work against. Give the top of the reactor an extra 1/4 turn after you think it is snug - a tiny leak is a big problem, but much easier to fix this than a DIY.

Why not hang the reactor on the back or side of the dank as it was designed to hang? You have a lot of extra line there, and it may be losing gas. The shorter the line the better it works.

I always got 6 bubbles per minute, which meant that I saw 6 bubbles on the ramp most of the time, although the ramp is not exactly 1 minute travel time.

I never shook my reactor, I think getting that stuff in the line is a BAD thing. 

I did find that if I added more sugar than was needed to cover the first rib inside the reactor, then the whole thing was slowed way down. Started slow, worked slow, died early. 

Also, the first time you use it, it needs to break in somehow. The second time is much better.


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Thanks anona.

I'll check all those things tonight.

I thought I had tightened it as you and the directions say, but will check.

Had it on the ground just because that worked, figured it was easier than messing with the hanger. Didn't know if it would require punching a hole out of my hood. Will see tonight. Even on the floor, I could take some slack out of the line.

This a.m. I had to take the ramp off the tank wall, as 2 of my more stupid cories decided to get themselves jammed behind it and couldn't get out on their own. Stupid fish! Seem to be all right. In the process I moved the diffuser up a couple of inches. Will see if I can get it even higher. I was surprised the instructions did not say anything about shorter tube or higher placement.

Thought I was very careful to add sugar simply up to 1st rib. Will be extra careful from now on.

If this doesn't clear up in a day or two, at what point would you recommend tossing this batch and trying a new one?

Thanks. I'll keep you posted.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

you don't shake the reactor when it's hooked up! doing so causes a massive CO2 release, and indeed you might shoot yeast solution into the tank.

You shake it up BEFORE you ever hook up the airline. The oxygenates the sugar/water solution...YEAST NEED TO BREATHE AIR for the first phase of their life cycle. Also it's FINE to have the diffuser near the bottom of the tank. You'll get plenty of CO2 pressure...or at least you should. Before I switched to a 1gallon jug for my yeast/sugar/water mixture, I had the grey canister on the floor inside my cabinet...3+ feet of airline, and I got almost a bubble a second.

Adding too much sugar does affect the yeast, and you'll end up with dead yeast before all the sugar gets used up.
It entirely possible that the packets of yeast that came with the Co2 kit are old/were mishandled and are dead. Buy a packet of bread yeast, use 1/2 teaspoon, and see if that gets things rolling.

(I used to make beer and mead, so I know all about the yeast, what it's doing, and how to make it work better)


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Thanks malkore.

Don't know how I missed your earlier post the 1st time.

I didn't shake it before hooking it up, as the instructions said nothing about it. 

Could I just add yeast to the existing mixture? Or need I start from scratch?

Could I unhook the canister and shake it?

Like I said, I really don't think I overdid the sugar. I did not use a thermometer for the water, but to touch out of the tap it felt only slightly warmer than my 76 degree tank. 

I think our thermostat is set around 70. The canister is somewhat close to the rear wall of our house, but I would be very surprised if it got below 65. 

As the King of Siam said, "It is a puzzlement!"


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## eds (Feb 12, 2003)

Last evening took the canister off the hose, shook it for 30 sec, and reconnected it.
Glad I disconnected it first, because when I took my finger off the top hole, there was a burst of gas.
Also tightened the cap a little more - it was already pretty darn snug.

This a.m. a second bubble would enter the diffuser as the previous one was 3 or so ramps from the top. They seemed to move more slowly, and get smaller as they went up.
Now we're cooking with gas!
Thanks for all your help, folks.
I wonder why the instructions couldn't have said something as simple as "Shake well before using."


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

shaking the solution is something I know about because I used to do a lot of homebrewing. you do have to screw down that grey canister really tight, because there's no rubber gasket to make a truely tight seal.

it does indeed sound like you're getting better CO2, and you're right, as the bubbles climb the ramps, they get smaller, which indicates the CO2 is diffusing into the water.


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## Ugly Genius (Sep 27, 2003)

So is there an average number of bubbles one should expect from the Hagen system? So far we have people saying one every two seconds and another about eight per minute. Is there any ideal/optimal amount?


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

depends on tank size i think


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

there's a lot of factors - how viable the yeast is to start with, the temperature of the sugar/water solution, depth of the diffuser (back pressure) will all affect the number of bubbles per second.
I believe fishyboy's comment is that the optimal number of bubbles depends on your tank size...which is true...and surface agitation will affect CO2 loss, so your filter figures into the equation too.

I think a lot of the pressurized guys aim for 1 bubble every 1 to 2 seconds...they've got larger tanks, and pure CO2.

I can tell you that when I have 1 bubble a second on my 29gallon, tests reveal my CO2 levels are 8-10ppm higher than 'ideal' (like 35ppm!)


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## Verminaard (Dec 4, 2003)

just thought id mention a disaster i had with this particular setup..........i have two running on my 55 g tank. one day i came home from work and was horrified. my dogs had somehow gotten into the tank stand and knocked over one of the reactors. it wasnt pretty-i immediately did a water change but the damage was done....lost all my fish except two otto's and a couple corys. the reaction bubbled the yeast/sugar mix directly into the tank- i surmised that the yeast began to feed on the O2 and as a result depleted the tank of oxygen.....so in short- never let the reactor fall over  hope u all can avoid it...........
i have also noticed that if u leave the yeast in the fridge in a ziploc-the mix will produce co2 within 4-6 hrs, maybe helping to avoid any ph swing while changing out mixes...........


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

Verminaard said:


> i surmised that the yeast began to feed on the O2 and as a result depleted the tank of oxygen.....so in short- never let the reactor fall over  hope u all can avoid it...........


Its also possible that the alcohol in the bottle poisoned your fish.


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## Daemonfly (Oct 1, 2003)

I have one in my 6g Eclipse (actually, the whole Hagen CO2 system). I have the hose output on the lowest placement to counteract the outgassing from the Eclipse filter. Works decently & my plants are doing a lot better.

My only problem is that snails seem drawn to this thing. They're constantly crawling around in it, making the bubbles get stuck & building up.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

GDominy said:


> Its also possible that the alcohol in the bottle poisoned your fish.


LOL, I was also thinking at least the fooshies went out happy.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

sadly, I work with a guy who, as a child, experimented with his fish tank by adding rubbing alcohol everyday, to 'get them to be able to breath in pure alcohol'.
needless to say it didnt' take long for his fish to die.

he's a weird guy, and luckily doesn't keep fish anymore.
I too agree that it was the alcohol, not the yeast consuming oxygen, that did it. the yeast wouldn't have consumed that much oxygen, because there wasn't enough sugar (food) in the tank to keep them going.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

I just added a DIY line to the reactor for the Hagen unit. It's working pretty well. I really like these little units. I also agree. The bubbles will increase if you just give it two days. I wouldn't be too worried about problems so early on. And, I wouldn't shake the hagen unit. It also says to refrain from shaking it or disturbing it. Anyway. Good luck.


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## johnd (Dec 7, 2003)

Always use a check valve if you aren't. They're cheap and could save you much trouble..


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

With this unit, what you see is what you get.

What you need to be watchin, instead of bubbles, is the pH.

That, combined with the KH and the handy dandy chart will tell you if you are getting enough CO2 to make a difference.

On the 2nd or 3rd day the rate should be better, the second batch is often better, but I cannot figure why that should be so.

I was able to get 6 bpm out of the packets, then it declined. At 3 bom my pH rose to a point that I knew I needed more CO2, so then it was time to change the packets. It is likely that things like tap water temp and chlorine levesl and other chemicals could affect the initial rate. 

I suggest that you chart bpm vs CO2, you will be able to judge then what bpm is the minimum that gives you the results you need. 

If you are unhappy with the CO2 levels, look first to surface disturbances. Those are often eady to correct.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

johnd said:


> Always use a check valve if you aren't. They're cheap and could save you much trouble..



For the DIY Attachment? I'm just not familiar with it enough yet. Where would I put the check valve and how does it function (sorry if this question sounds trivial, but I'm a CO2 newbie) plus my tap water is a real jerk so I have to double up on C02 to compensate for the extremely high pH and low GH.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Does this prevent the aquarium water from getting into the cannister? or Vice Versa?


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

OK...answered my own question. Figured it out.

Is this a common problem though of the aquarium water going into the cannister?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I think the check valve is mostly useful to avoid a situation where you disconnect the cap or cover to set up a new mix, and you "forget" to connect it, and for some reason the water of your tank starts to siphon out through the airline. This can theoretically happen and since check valves are cheap they should be added to avoid that wet carpet feel.
I don't think there is any way the tank water goes into the bottle, since the whole thing is based on pressure building up in the bottle...
For pressurized setups, the check valve is important so water doesn't flow back into the regulator/gauges which I heard isn't too good for them.

Edit: spelling...


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

I agree. I couldn't figure how the valve would prevent water from going in while there is a constant pressure from the CO2 and gravity nonetheless. I would imagine that these are good for systems with a little more uummmppff, then mine, and don't come with a coke label. :wink:


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## anonapersona (Oct 19, 2002)

Follow this....Co2 is absorbed into water easily, right? So, if you have a narrow tube full of CO2 with no pressure behind it, as the CO2 is absorbed, the water will begin to travel up the line. Now, the water only has to go a little way up the line (inside the tank) before it is going down the line (outside the tank), assuming the generator is below the tank. 

Pretty quickly the weight of the water as it goes down the tube overcomes whatever pressure is in the generator. You can see how many inches of water the pressure is equal to as you first set up the tubing it the gas begins to push down the water.

So, now you have water rushing down the line into the generator, compressing whatever gas is there, and mixing with the yeast water. Now, the weight of the liine full of water is a lot more than the weight of a line full or air so the pressure in the generator might be higher now than when the generator is actually running normally, and as the yeast start up the pressure builds, so any weak link in the system is likely to fail, maybe a seal where a line goes into the cap starts to leak. 

#$%^&*^^#!! "What is this foul stuff on the carpet!" It ain't pretty!

FWIW, I've had it happen both ways, and when I needed it , the check valve failed somehow and water went right past it. I had it happen as above and in the more common manner, simply from leaving the cap off the bottle as I went to refill it -- a big black paper clip will NOT hold back the tank water. 

So, if you use an extra bottle on the Hagen diffuser, be sure to place it on top of the tank before you uncap it, and leave it there until the line is full of gas and is bubbling into the tank. Then it is safe to place it beneath the tank.


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