# Burrower-Friendly Plant-Based Substrates



## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello..,

I have been looking into changing my substrate from standard inert River Gravel to something that is good for plants. Another reason I would like to change it is for my burrowing Loaches. I was wondering if anyone could recommend a sand substrate that is both plant and burrower-friendly. Is this too much to ask? Another option I considered was using a soil underlayer. But I have a concern that the Loaches might just stir it up. Has anyone ever used a layer of some type of screening between the soil and sand to keep burrowing fish from displacing it? I would like to look at all the aspects before making a decision. I have also heard if you properly dose the water column, a plant-based substrate might be unnecessary. After all if I were to go with a plant-specific subtrate, it could prove to be expensive with a 55 Gallon tank as well as a 20 and a 10. I would like to take into account the long term health of the system as well as the short, and ultimately the health of my fish comes first.:fish:

Thank-you!
leafshapedheart


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## Curator (Feb 20, 2009)

you can use any sand you feel like, although play sand is easily the cheapest you can get, and from what ive seen looks pretty nice if you want a tan substrate, although the actual composition of it changes from area to area because, from what ive read, its usually produced locally because of how cheap they sell it, they would lose money if they shipped it... as long as you have plants that arent especially demanding, and your light isnt to high, you should be able to get away easily with just dosing the water column... Im no expert though, my opinion is just based upon what ive read around here so far... So id wait for the experts around here to confirm what ive said be4 completely trusting my opinion on it,lol...


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Thats a good idea. But to add to it you could also use fertilizer tabs from seachem or whatever brand you prefer to make the sand less inert. It gets expensive over the long run.

My suggestion though would be to get some ADA Aqua Soil. It is nice and round. Mu loaches seem to love it. For your 55 you could use regular and for the smaller tanks you could use the powder. It may seem like an expensive investment at first but after you see it all layed out it will be worth it.

Do some searches on it, there is TONS of info on this site about it. :thumbsup:



Curator said:


> you can use any sand you feel like, although play sand is easily the cheapest you can get, and from what ive seen looks pretty nice if you want a tan substrate, although the actual composition of it changes from area to area because, from what ive read, its usually produced locally because of how cheap they sell it, they would lose money if they shipped it... as long as you have plants that arent especially demanding, and your light isnt to high, you should be able to get away easily with just dosing the water column... Im no expert though, my opinion is just based upon what ive read around here so far... So id wait for the experts around here to confirm what ive said be4 completely trusting my opinion on it,lol...


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

If you decided to go with sand I would recommend pool filter sand or Fluorite black sand over playsand for one reason and one reason only. There was some people suggesting that playsand was not good to use as if disturbed as it likely would be by burrowing fish, the floating grains would be sucked through your filter strainer eventually damaging your impeller. 

So now fast forward to real life: there is a guy in my city who has "healthy" and beautfiul planted tanks who extensively uses pool filter sand in his tanks. I bought some plants from him and we were talking. He told me that he was getting rid of the playsand in one of his tanks as he found that the grains were too light and when bottom dwelling fish burrowed or stirred it up the small sand grains would get sucked into the strainer. He told me that he went through 3 filter impellers in one year on that tank because of this. He told me that the pool filter sand grains were heavier and would sink. He stated that he had no such issues with the same filters that he was using in the tanks where he had pool filter sand. Now, you could always put a sponge over the strainer to prevent this from happening if you use playsand, but understand that this will greatly slow down suction or flow of water being pulled through the strainer, especially as the sponge becomes quickly clogged over time.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for the replies!

Although I have heard lot of people use play sand, I would not use it for one reason. I have heard too many things about it being bad for Loaches. In comparison with Pool Filter Sand, it has an uneven grain size, and some of the grains can be sharp. That coupled with it getting into the impeller is enough to steer me away from it, even if it may be cheaper. Ideally I would like a sand which has the largest grain size. 

With ADA Aqua soil, do you use it as a bottom layer only, or can you use it alone? I have also been looking at Seachem Sand for Plants, Onyx Sand, Tahitian Moon Sand, 
3M ColourQuartz, and a few others. 

To make it more complicated, I had considered something else. This was to use sand in the front and centre of the tank, but use gravel around the back and sides. I could either build a retaining wall or use pieces or rockwork or driftwood to create raised planting beds for the plants. I was thinking this may be the best option, though the hardest to design. Do you think this may be feasible, or will it only cause headache and heartache in the end?


Thanks,
leafshapedheart


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

ADA AS is used as the only layer (unless you want to waste your money on the ADA additives :icon_roll)
Example...











leafshapedheart said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> Although I have heard lot of people use play sand, I would not use it for one reason. I have heard too many things about it being bad for Loaches. In comparison with Pool Filter Sand, it has an uneven grain size, and some of the grains can be sharp. That coupled with it getting into the impeller is enough to steer me away from it, even if it may be cheaper. Ideally I would like a sand which has the largest grain size.
> 
> ...


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Beautiful tank! It looks very natural and the plants are very healthy. Good to know! 

leafshapedheart


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## Roser (Jan 13, 2008)

I'd also like to know if soil underlayers work with burrowing fish.

The tank I'm planning (probably summer at the earliest) will either use soil capped with pool filter sand, or just the sand (I haven't done so before, but that's what I want to do).


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

I have just set up (3 days and counting!) some peppered loaches (L. guntea) on Eco-Complete. They seem to love it, and spend all morning, evening, and most of the night sifting, scooting about and burrowing. They show no abrasions or distress. Eco-Complete is not listed as "burrower-friendly" on CaribSea's website, but is listed as "soft belly safe." It's soft enough to make the peppers happy. I don't imagine that their little backs are softer than their bellies, so maybe the listing indicates that the burrows don't stay built? 

Those same peppered loaches made a huge mess on a sand-capped soil substrate. Their burrows kicked up probably half the soil in less than a month. I got very tired of cleaning the soil off the plants, filter intake, sand, caves, slow-moving fish... maybe if I'd had a gravel tidy between sand and soil, it would've been different.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, Sixwing..,I recognize your name from LOL.., I'm known as soul-hugger there, but here that name's already taken...Good to see you here!

Thanks for the reply! It's good to know your peppered Loaches are happy on Eco-Complete, because I have Dojos and they are very similar. They are also quite large, so I could imagine the destruction they could cause under the substrate if they wanted to. It must have been a pain to clean the soil up all the time. This is why I'm trying to choose very carefully, because a change like this is going to be a lot of work, and I don't want to have to do it too many times! I have been basically trying to decide between plant based substrate or sand, capped soil, and regular inert sand with gravel bed supplements. Decisions, Decisions! But that's what makes it fun...

Bye for Now..,
leafshapedheart


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

PREAMBLE: i would like to have a 90gal-125gal planted lo-tech soil substrate tank with an overcoating of natural creek gravel (i actually get it from a creek using a colander) that houses dojo loaches. Thanks for getting this topic started leafshapedheart! i have been reading this forum daily for a month now and it is time to join. you are actually the first person to start a thread on gravel tidies and soil substrate. after a week of research on loaches, soil substrates, burrowing substrates and gravel tidies, i have come up with a few ideas. they are tailored to my needs, but could give you some direction. keep in mind that this is my thought process; i have not kept a planted tank (yet) and have never seen a gravel tidy. everyone, please comment, criticize and correct me as you feel necessary... yes, this is my fist post. 

THE POINT: 

DOJO LOACH- like every other fish that naturally burrows for protection, it will overturn, disturb, and uproot everything it can. something that burrows is not afraid of tight spaces, and will infiltrate every crevice it can. unlike all the rest, my dojo loves me. 

PLANTS- first decide if you want 'hi-tech' or 'lo-tech'. this will determine what kind of plants you can grow. a hi-tech tank can support plants that can draw nutrients from the substrate and the water column. lo-tech usually favors plants with strong root systems that draw their nutrients mostly from the substrate. if you chose lo-tech, you should use a soil substrate and you MUST defend the roots of the plant because if they are damaged it can not feed. in a hi-tech tank you can choose to use plants that are able to draw nutrients from the water column, which means, that if they get dug up, they will probably be fine, but the dojo will still make a huge mess. if you do chose the hi-tech tank, then using a single sand-based substrate, with water column nutrient-absorbing plants, will be fine. that is, if you don't mind replanting constantly.i reviewed your profile and it sounds like you would prefer the lo-tech style. 

TIDY-a gravel tidy appears to be mainly a European thing (or at least the Brits are the only ones putting it on the net). their original use was to keep under gravel filters from sucking up gravel and becoming clogged. the other uses that i have actually found info on are: limiting the burrowing of cichlidS (the site did not mention plants) and dividing substrates in saltwater aquariums (again, nothing to do with fresh water plants). this is the only info i found on tidies and plants: http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWsubwebindex/loachfdgfaqs.htm i don't agree with using a tidy with plants in a lo-tech set up. (not sure about my thoughts on a gravel tidy and hi-tech.) all of the pictures and descriptions i have found have shown a gravel tidy to be a somewhat dense (but loosely woven) fibrous filter. it will defiantly be an impenetrable barrier for the dojo, but i think it will also affect the plant's roots. are you familiar with pulling a weed out of landscaping cloth? the roots spread quickly on the surface of the cloth, but rarely penetrate it. there are two main reasons for this: traveling along the surface of the cloth offers less resistance to the roots than growing in the soil (its just easy) and the roots that do penetrate the soil can't gather much nutrients because the cloth limits the aerobic growth of bacteria. hence, the plant grows very quickly by throwing out lots of roots to suck up the nutrients from the mulch, but usually weaken and die because the few roots that do penetrate the cloth can not always get the trace micro-nutrients from the very anaerobic soil below. these weeds THRIVE for a short period, usually until the point that they try to reproduce, then just kind of mutate and die. the tidy gives the low surface resistance on the bottom of top layer of substrate and limits the gas/water flow through the substrate. this is just an analogy, of course, but the balance of anaerobic and aerobic bacteria on terrestrial land is just as important as it is in an aquatic setting. 

SUBSTRATE-the (very) natural substrate i use is about 2-5mm. this should be good for burrowing but due to its irregularly shape, only a medium-sized dojo (approx 5in or 12.5 cm) can burrow in it. if yours works, then stick with it. i like mine; it looks natural. i plan on using this recipe for the soil substrate: http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/mineralized-soil-substrate/ and placing a barrier between it and my natural gravel. natural gravel has a 'good' cation exchange capacity (CEC) compared to epoxy gravel (according to Walstad's book), but i plan on adding a little ADA substrate just to up the ante. i have no clue which layer it should go in (yet). adding clay to the soil substrate acts as a flocculating agent. meaning the soil will settle faster. if the rest of my post is totally worthless to you, at least you know how to make the cleanup faster. 

BARRIER- i don't like the aforementioned tidy. i have been exploring ideas on what to use. i would love something that only limits root growth as much as my least resistive substrate layer. here, my choices are limited. i want something that sinks, that can stop a dojo, that is nontoxic, and does NOT limit the natural level of fluidic flow between the substrates. what i have determined will NOT WORK: anything aluminum or galvanized (poisonous), anything steel (supposably usable by plants in an anaerobic environment, but it has to be to be toxic at this level. will someone supply a link?) and anything that can not be VERY firmly secured. DON'T KNOW if it will work: tulle (in the bridal section of the craft store), the 'el cheapo' blue AC filters, plastic coated metal mesh, plastic cross-stitch mesh, anything at all. 

any naturally burrowing fish will shove itself into the smallest, most impossible holes at a moment's notice. i feel (without qualitative proof) that a dojo less that 4in or 10cm can probably fit trough a hole that would eventually choke the roots of a thriving plant. i would love to find a plastic sinking mesh that is spaced at least 1/4in or 7mm. i feel it is better to keep a adolescent dojo, or older, who can't get through a tiny hole, as apposed to using a fine mesh that would eventually choke the plants with age. 

SECURING THE BARRIER- no clue, haven't found the barrier that i want yet. 

LIGHTING- all DIY- planed ONOD at 2 or 2 1/2 WPG http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-tank-faq/175-cheap-lighting-odno.html and moon lighting http://www.kaotica.com/frag/diy/moonlight/ with an optical-grade polycarbonate cover between the lights and water to minimize spectral loss. more research is need to find the proper cover, but i despise constant evaporative water loss.http://www.omnexus.com/tc/polycarbonate/index.aspx?id=optical-clarity

i know that was long. ok, everyone, please comment, criticize and correct me as you feel necessary. it is required for my progress on this issue of... stuff. 

P.S. do i get a reward for most commas, used, in, a, single, post?


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello, raistlin..,

Wow! Some very good thoughts here! I have pulled weeds out of landscaping cloth, and it's not easy! It is certainly true that most things will travel along the path of least resistance (sometimes including us!) LOL 

Our dojos most certainly love us and we love them as well. I have them in mind first and foremost in the design of my main tank. One of my dojos is nearly 8" long and is probably nearly an inch round. The second largest is not far behind. The depth of my gravel is about 3" and I don't doubt they touch the bottom sometimes when they burrow. I would definitely not want to use any sort of fiber in which they could become trapped. This eliminates punching holes in a fabric for the plants' roots, as they would surely find a way in. With my set-up, I also plan to add a powerhead for current-loving Loaches, so this complicates things further. I would need to make sure the top layer is something a little heavier that won't get blown around, or if it does, that it won't be enough to expose a soil layer underneath. I have heard you can use ADA Aquasoil by itself, but I have yet to do more research on this product to see if it will be good in the Loach Tank. There are so many considerations to be made, and I like to look at all angles of something before making a decision. I have appreciated your insights, and I'm glad we can share a common "thread". 

leafshapedheart


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

about ADA and other substrates: http://www.guitarfish.org/2009/02/04/substrate i have read many good things about ADA. doesn't compact extensively with age, anchors plants firmly, has a very high CEC, settles quickly, and is safe for burrowers. of course, it is suppose to be a little more expensive, and a little harder to find. because web pages don't have dates, i would like to think that it is very common locally these days, but i don't actually know. black sands can be very heavy and resistant to water movement. actually if you find a lot of black sand in nature, you are likely to find the heaviest natural occurring pure element, gold, in the same area. i haven't read anything on how it compacts with age, but it is suprizingly heavy. for the lo-tech approach that i had in mind, an organic bottom substrate is important. i won't just use the ADA as the over cover because it is not what i naturally see around here. i want it to look as natural as possible. my little sister finds my tanks boring because she has seen the same habitat for 20 plus years before we moved to the city. to her, it is the same creek she splashed in as a kid, but too small to swim in. good thought on the dojos getting stuck in the fiber. before you said that, i thought it my best bet. but if they can get through it once, there is no guarantee that they can find there way back out before they drown. i will keep working on the barrier. if i come up with something to remedy the situation i will post it here.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello again,

Thanks for the excellent links. I looked them over, and I really like the guitarfish one. I am getting more determined now than ever to change my substrate. Just added the laterite to my gravel today, so I'm hoping it will keep my plants a little happier until I can improve a few things for them. It has been about 8 hours now and the water is still cloudy, but hopefully by morning it will clear.

Your little sis will probably change her mind about your tanks being boring once you get them going. Either that or she has to roam a little more to figure out the best things are sometimes right at home.  I have always preferred a natural look myself, and it's even better if you can base that look on your local stream. I have been imagining recently creating a tank like that, and even collecting fish, plants, and invertebrates that live there, limiting it to species that would stay small enough to remain permanent residents. I'm not sure how it would be to keep an animal in captivity and then release it back into the wild.

I will keep working on the soil/barrier/Loach problem, too, and I'll let you know if I come up with anything too. Have you ever visited Loaches Online? I am also a member at that site and I would highly recommend it. But my name there is soul-hugger.

Bye for Now
leafshapedheart


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

leafshapedheart: Wow - nice to see you over here, too! You really helped me out over at loaches.com.  

I have emailed CaribSea to find out what, exactly, "burrower friendly" has that is different from "soft belly safe." So far no response (been more than a week) so I do not think that I will get one. 

Good summary, raistlin! The landscaping-cloth type stuff does not sound so hot. I do like WWM's suggestion of cutting little x shapes in it to put the plants through, very much like an ornamental planting in a terrestrial garden, with the fabric used to stop weeds. That still doesn't solve the nutrient flow issue or aerobic/anaerobic problem, but don't plants force aerobic areas around their roots..? 

Best thought I have for a gravel tidy that will stop a medium-sized dojo is that plastic cross-stitch mesh you mentioned. It's sold as "plastic canvas" around here, and comes in many different sizes, the most common being about 1/8" holes. It's not sharp, not toxic, easily cut, but it floats. Maybe we could secure it to the bottom by siliconing it to something heavy, or even making a rim like the one that holds a mattenfilter? The stuff is flexible enough that it would be possible to do something like this stuck to the aquarium sides:

----- glass or acrylic rim top
#### mesh
|||||| rim bottom, attached to aquarium sides and aquarium bottom

That would hold the mesh steady and keep the fish from getting in through the sides, but means a lot of work and would not likely look pretty. Then again, the whole thing's under substrate level; a tank with tall rims would hide that if it weren't too deep. 

Plant roots should still be able to get through the 1/8" holes, but a medium or bigger dojo shouldn't. I have no confidence on that mesh stopping a smaller dojo, though - my LFS has some that are barely 2" long, and I bet one could get through those holes if it really wanted to.


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

i have kept many wild species in the past. in college, when i got stressed out i would capture anything in the local streams and imprison it in my fish tank. great as a stress reliever but not so good for the tank. i live in a more temperate climate, so i am not sure what lives in your local area. our selection here includes: snails, crayfish, fish, salamanders, newts, clams and algae. the snails are hard to find, and when i managed to find enough to breed, i regretted it. crayfish are cool in their own rite but cause to many problems. they will destroy a tank faster than a dojo. they cut up the plants for no apparent reason and can be very aggressive towards your fish. i haven't found anything else that does so much for keeping the clean (excluding the mess). crayfish, salamanders and newts will all leave if the water quality gets bad or it is time to breed. either way you won't be able to keep these three wild-caught animals captive. all of the fish here are exceedingly boring to look at. there are virtually no aquarium sized aquatic plants to speak of. every time i introduced something from the stream into a tank, i usually had bad algae (the hair kind that can't be removed with a razor) or parasites. i had little worms in one tank that looked like little swimming threads. don't know what they were but i didn't like the look of them... the only thing i currently keep that i catch wild are clams. they do wonders for the water quality. to sum it up my local pickings are slim and most have legs and/or are diseased. i cant recommend that anyone try a tank with local wild caught wild life, but i would love for some one to tell me how. i have found that it is best to keep the look of the local streams without any of the local wildlife.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, Sixwing..,

Glad to hear I helped you out over at LOL! How are your Loaches doing? Having Loaches that like to burrow (and escape) certainly present us with some interesting problems. Good idea with making a frame for the gravel-tidy. This would definitely help to keep it in place. Holes in the fabric are a good idea, but the only problem I can see with that is if you wanted to add new plants. Then you would have to be able to brush the upper layer aside to cut another hole. I know with myself, I'm always redecorating my tanks. But maybe if I could get my plants growing properly, I wouldn't need to buy so many new ones!

Hi, Raistlin..,

Thanks for sharing your experience on wild-caught critters! The pickings around where I live are no doubt even slimmer than yours. We do also have crayfish, snails, and minnows, frogs, but I'm not sure what else. This would certainly come with its own problems. You may also be right that there is a special way to do it that we don't know about. It would have been interesting if you could have looked at some of those worms under the microscope. Even our own clean tanks are full of things we can't see with the naked eye. If I had a microscope, I'd be using it all the time. One interesting thing happened to me about 8 years ago. I had bought some new houseplants and set hem on the windowsill. One eve I was standing looking out the window when I saw something moving in the corner of my eye. I raised my fist to squish it and stopped short when I noticed, it wasn't a bug at all; it was a tiny lizard.., a green anole to be exact. I asked a pet store how to keep it and they said it would find enough critters in the plant it came on, so I bought a screen and wrapped it around the plant as best I could. Unfortunately, he found a way to escape, and ended up getting squished under a chair. He was so small it was hard to see him, and I felt so bad. But now looking back, I can see I was given bad advice. I should have had a cage for him. Just a little story, I'm not sure why I felt like telling it, or what it has to do with this, but.., there it was!

Keeping Dojos in a Planted Tank is like a Math Problem..,
leafshapedheart


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

leafshapedheart - The loaches are doing quite well, thanks!  Since the peppers made it out of quarantine, they haven't made a single attempt to bail out - a big relief after they bounced off the plastic wrap every single day. The dojo is still lonely, but a little dojo buddy for him is next on the list - he does hang out with the peppers some, but doesn't school with them all the time. They have also not torn up the patch of Glossostigma that managed to sneak into this tank somehow, but it's probably a matter of time.

Watching the largest pepper (5") and the dojo (6") try to figure out who gets to lie full-length in the cave, and who has to curl up, is hilarious. I will be making them another cave when we're fully moved in, but I bet they will still argue over their favorite spot right by the glass. 

The peppers have also taught the cories how to do the loachy dance. All the fish go blasting up and down the sides on almost a daily basis.

raistlin - Wild-catching critters sounds like more trouble than it's worth, that's for sure. Mostly we have trout around here, and minnows (or are they trout fry..? hmm) and I'd hate to try and keep one of those - they get a good foot and a half long and are incredibly active, not even touching the legality of keeping a wild fish in captivity. They're fun to watch (and fish for) in the river, though! Likewise the local frogs - those are LOUD.

Keeping dojos _is_ like a math problem. *lol* What's the optimum point on the curve, if total size of dojos is on the x axis and total mass of plants is on the y, for maintaining the sanity of the keeper?


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

sixwing,
plants do release oxygen into the soil through their roots to stimulate aerobic bacteria. i don't think that even the dense gravel tidy would affect that but i am concerend about slowing down any oxygen that could find its way into the soil by other natural means. even if i stifels this process a little bit i wouldn't use it. i need all the help i can get. i don't like the cross-stich canvas because some of the plants i want have very thick root balls and some are bulbs. as they grow the will collid with that ridgid mat somehow. i don't know what the results will be so i would reather remove that unkown variable. some of my plants i currently have in 'fish only' tank have roots greater than 1/8in and they are not very healthy. hopefully the lush garden i grow will have roots even bigger. the crossstich canvas will also prevent any chance of replanting.


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

found what i need for a barrier and a frame! i have choosen a netting designed to keep debris out of swimming pools and koi ponds. this is the exact same product i bought at the ace harware. here is a link http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=GAD-PN-10 it is flexable and tough. i cant even force my pinky though one of the 3/8in holes. it is not ridgid at all. it is kind of 'soft' like a fiberglass widow screen. 

this is what i have found to use as a frame: http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1286099&cp=&kw=5069216&origkw=5069216&sr=1 you can't see the product but it is simular to this: http://www.qualitywindowscreen.com/store/images/frame_5-16x1.gif it is just that little grove at the top of the picture and a bead to lock it in place, it does not have the U-channel frame. it will be just like making a screen window! i can do that!

the channel has doulble sided tape on the back of it. that will have to come off. i plan on cutting a peice of cardboard to size. i will put it in the tank to be sure it fits. i will then use the self adhesive tape to stick the channels to the very edge of the cardboard. loosly lay the pond netting over it, snap the beads in place and trim it. then i have to peel off the carboard and remove the tape. that will be no fun, but this stuff is pretty flexable and i will need to use the tape to hold it in place whaile i assemble it. all i need to do is find some kind of vinyl/pvc corner brakets to hold the edges of the frame.

ihavenot worked out the details of how to weigh it down. the netting itself floats and the holes are alot larger than my substrate. i plan to use little lead crimp-on fishing weights on the netting. i still need to work out how to secure the frame. i could just silocon it down but i don't like that idea.

there is one issue i haven't worked out yet. is it important to keep the barrier between the substrates? would it be enough to keep the dojo from compleatly burrying himself in the soft silt substrate?


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

All right! Sounds like a great little project. I'm very interested to see how this turns out. 

If the final product had that U-shaped base, could easily silicone some rocks or something in there. For that matter, it would not be so hard to attach a rock to each corner of the frame, to keep it sunk - or even to have a couple rocks on top of the mesh to weigh it down. Then you don't have to attach it to the tank at all. Neat!



> would it be enough to keep the dojo from compleatly burrying himself in the soft silt substrate?


I'd certainly hope so. If the plant-friendly stuff is on the bottom, and some flavor of burrower-friendly stuff is on the top, hopefully the barrier will keep the dojo up in the burrower-friendly layer where we want him! It occurs to me that smaller, heavier grains (sand) will always want to sink below larger, lighter ones (soil), but at least this should keep the fish from helping the process along.


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

Sixwing said:


> It occurs to me that smaller, heavier grains (sand) will always want to sink below larger, lighter ones (soil), but at least this should keep the fish from helping the process along.


good point. i know that my barrier can stop the dojo. i know that the large 3/8in or 1cm holes in my netting will not offer much resistance to the substrate moving around. it certainly won't keep them separated. that doesn't matter in most lo-tech aquariums, but it might matter to us in the long run. my netting can sink into the soil substrate or float into the top layer of substrate or my could substrates will just naturally mix over time which means the dojo will eventually be burrowing in the soil.

is it enough to simply protect the roots of the plants or must we defend the soil substrate from being stirred up? if the silt constantly gets stirred up, it will prevent the plants from getting enough light. also, i can't brag about a muddy aquarium.

i am considering placing a temporary, weak, thin layer of natural cloth below the barrier. preferably bleached (to weaken it) tulle or lace. [[EDIT: i am now considering cheese cloth or cotton gauze or WHAT IS THIS? RAW UNDIED Mosquito NETS? never seen one, but it sounds perfect! http://www.mosquitonets.com/p/103492/cotton-netting.html]] maybe even burlap, but it is thicker and my limit gas flow. all it would need to do is weakly separate the substrates but not severely limit the plant roots. after a few months, the substrates will settle and compact. at this point it would not be as easy to stir up. the tulle will basically have rotted to the point that it will be part of the natural soil substrate but will still have that tiny bit of resistance needed to keep the silt down. the roots will also be healthy at this point and would just tear the tulle as needed.

this is a new frontier. i have not found anything published on the internet that covers this topic. it will be at lest a month before i start setting up my tank to test it. we won't know anything until then. by the way, it is a complete custom 90gal. it has every thing from the stand to the hood and it is custom built at only 16in tall to maximize floor space. it is less than 10 years old and i got it for $200! sweet.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hi, Sixwing, I'm so glad to hear everything is going so well. Part of the reason we love Loaches so much I think is for the entertainment they provide. I could just imagine the spectacle of your two Loaches squabbling over the cave. I don't know why everyone would not want to have at least one type of Loach in their aquarium. I also wanted to say your story inspired me to reinforce my aquarium, too. One night my husband was asleep on the couch and was awakened by the sound of both large Loaches thrashing about in the tank. The next day it dropped from about -15C to -40. I thought about your story and immediately went to work. In my case a piece of wood too heavy for them to move plugged the holes.

Hello Raistlin..,
Sound like this just might work. Maybe there is a patent in there somewhere in the future! Just when we think it's all been done.., we become Loach Keepers!

leafshapedheart


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

0_0 Yuck! Quite the temperature drop. It's so handy to have the weather report right there in the tank. Probably wise to reinforce, too - nothing like finding loachjerky.

raistlin - 
I don't think the mixture will be a serious problem, especially if you're using a tan or brown sand instead of white. *s* That was my issue - loaches kicking up black dirt onto my pretty white sand. Not doing that again. I can't speak to the long term, but in the short, I had no problems with soil and sand getting mixed up when there wasn't anyone digging between the layers, even with a powerful filter current (AC20 all the way up on 5 gallons) and tunneling snails. I'm not familiar with silt as a substrate - how light is it? 
By the time the soil I used was mixed in, it was waterlogged enough to sink.

New frontier indeed, and that sounds like a neat tank. Are you planning to journal it when you're setting up?


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## BayBoy1205 (Jan 25, 2006)

I will never use Tahitian moon sand again. I had to replace the impeller and the housing on my Magnum 350. It is very light and just tore groves in the magnet and housing. Might be able to get by with a sponge pre-filter. Currently using Aquarium plants substrate with a layer of laterite below that.


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## raistlin tetsuo (Mar 2, 2009)

not sure if i will do a journal on the set up. im still just (over)planing the tank setup right now. i will definately do a writeup and take some pictures. wether or not i share it on a post depends on if the tank fails. the first guy i am going to intoduce to the 90gal tank is my 8in long bichir followed by gouramis/cats. if i can keep that stable, i will probably duplicate it with my 30gal. i want dojo loaches in the 90gal but i have not made a desicions yet. the bicher won't disturb any thing he cant swollow but the gourami can be pretty mean sometimes.


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

That's a big bichir. =D 
Well, I hope it works out for you! I'd love to see your results either way - something valuable to be learned in there. 

Bayboy: Good to know - was thinking about Tahitian moon sand for a while...


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello again!!


leafshapedheart said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> To make it more complicated, I had considered something else. This was to use sand in the front and centre of the tank, but use gravel around the back and sides. I could either build a retaining wall or use pieces or rockwork or driftwood to create raised planting beds for the plants. I was thinking this may be the best option, though the hardest to design. Do you think this may be feasible, or will it only cause headache and heartache in the end?


I have been inspired by Takashi Amano's Nature Aquarium article in the April edition of TFH magazine.:icon_idea:thumbsup: It has helped me to get a clearer picture of what I had envisioned above. This way I can get a little of the best of both worlds for both the Loaches and the plants.

This layout involves using what Mr. Amano calls "cosmetic sand" in the foreground. Not only does it look great and provide a place for burrowing fishes to root around in and take shelter, but it also keeps the growth of fast-spreading foreground plants in check.

He then places a row of driftwood and rocks across the middle of the tank. I could use this to solve my second problem of creating a look of depth in my narrow 55 Gallon tank. I had imagined this row curving towards the back from each front corner. Behind the rock/wood wall would be a nutritive substrate such as ADA Aquasoil, or a mixture of plant-based materials. Mr. Amano explains how he created the look, and I have decided this is what I will do. The plants in the back will be so thick that the fish would have either no room or no desire to burrow, as it will create many hiding places for them. But in the front would be the sand for them to hide, root and play.

Let me know what you think of this idea. And if you would like to check out the article and the beautiful photos within, it is on pages 62-6 in April's edition of Tropical Fish Hobbyist Magazine.

Thanks,
leafshapedheart


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

Ooh. That sounds like fun! 

If your two substrates are similar in color, it might help to keep them looking nice. My loaches love to blow dirt through their gills, and promptly rearrange any substrate (including big gravel, which they pick up and throw one bit at a time) into whatever suits them at the moment. A 3" peppered loach managed to create a crater 4" across and 1 deep the other day - I know it was him, because he was hidden in the half-inch or so still at the bottom. 

This sounds like a beautiful tank. I might have to start picking up that magazine.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

I hope it will be fun! But it will take some careful planning.

My Loaches blow stuff through their gills too, even food. But I have never seen any of them make a crater. That must have been neat. The other day I was watching the Fresh Water segment of Planet Earth and they had a bit about cichlids in Lake Malawi. The lake bottom is quite barren and you could clearly see these huge craters that were made by the cichlids. Fascinating!!

The TFH is really good. It gives me a couple good days of reading. Since you live in the US, you could get a subscription for cheap. Up here in Canada, the savings aren't that great because of the cost of shipping, and the place I get them from gives me the US listing price, which is pretty cool. Last month, (March issue) Michael Ophir from LOL wrote an article on Botia Striata which is really good. I also look forward to the monthly aquascaping section on the Nature Aquarium written by Takashi Amano himself.

Bye for Now..,

leafshapedheart


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

I've heard of the spawning craters cichlids can make, which is one of the many reasons I don't wanna mess with cichlids... 0_0 

I looked for TFH at the grocery store last night. They have none. Le sigh.


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## zenfish (Jan 29, 2006)

Something we used to use to keep africans or other cichlids from digging under the gravel and causing problems with the UG filter was FLOURESCENT diffusers,often times called EGG-CRATE..white with hundreds of tiny squares..find it just about anywhere..
Zen


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