# Bean animal overflow and Barr's wet/dry filtration...I am confused.



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

The bean animal overflow is designed to be as silent as possible. Under normal operation the main pipe runs like a siphon, in that there is no air inside it. This is why you often see a valve used at the sump end. The valve is used to control the volume of water through the main pipe.

The secondary pipe works like a conventional overflow. It is set up so that only a trickle of water runs through it. This is done indirectly by controlling the volume of water going through the main pipe.

The emergency pipe also works like a conventional overflow, and is there just in case the main pipe fails, either by getting air in it or by getting clogged up. 

The intake on the main pipe needs to be face down because this pipe acts like a siphon. You can't get air into it. The secondary pipe could really go in any direction, since it doesn't act like a siphon. 

The emergency pipe goes up because it should only come into use when the main pipe fails. This means that it take a slightly higher water level in the tank for it to operate.

You see the differences in the wet dry filtration design because of the intended use of the filters. The Lifereef filter is designed for a SW reef system. In this type of system you want the maximum gas exchange, CO2 out and O2 in. This is why the tower with the bioballs is not flooded. Also, bioballs under water tend to be big oxygen consumers because of the bacteria on them. 

In a planted tank you have different factors going on. You want to retain CO2 for the plants. You don't want the massive gas exchange like you do in a reef.

It's not so much one design being better. It's what the filter is being used for. Also, with all that being said, either filter design will work just fine on your system. You might have to use more CO2 with a design like the Lifereef, but that's about all.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

the second or open pipe should face down because it can be converted to a full siphon drain in case of any clogging with the primary siphon drain.

Also, I dont believe the 2 systems can work together as the siphoned drain pipe in the beananimal has to be below the water level of the sump in order to get that siphon. never used a wet/dry so can't comment on that.


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## chenboyu (Nov 17, 2013)

DaveK said:


> The bean animal overflow is designed to be as silent as possible. Under normal operation the main pipe runs like a siphon, in that there is no air inside it. This is why you often see a valve used at the sump end. The valve is used to control the volume of water through the main pipe.
> 
> The secondary pipe works like a conventional overflow. It is set up so that only a trickle of water runs through it. This is done indirectly by controlling the volume of water going through the main pipe.
> 
> ...



Thank you Dave, regarding the beananimal overflow design, how do the siphon start/begin to work? it is facing up side down.... and the above diagram I attached has all three stand pipes, all facing upward, so is it any different to beananimal's? are the bean animal design set and forget type? and how so?


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## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

In theory the bean animal over flow is self starting. Note that small red tube in the first picture. As the water level rises, it will start to flow through the main siphon. The small red tube is so the siphon can purge the air out of itself. I'm not so sure how well this actually works. 

The second design you have that is using standpipes is more or less functionally equivalent. Like all DIY projects, expect to do some work on it until you get it just right. 

When it comes to overflows and sumps, I would not consider anything to be "set it and forget it". If you let too much go, it's really easy to cause a flood. Test the system thoroughly with just water in it. Be sure to test power failure conditions too. Many people have had major floods because a check valve or siphon break failed on the return. Also test the overflows and be sure they work even when one is clogged.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

As a two-time Bean owner, it's self starting.

That red tube is not a purge - it's the 'siphon activation' tube - turns the secondary drain into full siphon should the water level reach and block the open end of the tube. i.e. primary clogs, so secondary goes into full siphon mode.

Dave, the Bean system is 100% set and forget. Just keep adding water to the sump as evap occurs, that's it. If you choose to use check valves on the returns and don't maintain them, then that's a potential risk. An over-the-top return input with siphon break (properly maintained) is the least risk way to do it.

The only way you'd have problems is if you did a crappy job during construction and/or deviated from the design (with no knowledge of what you were doing).


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Oh, some further clarifications:

 Secondary siphon MUST be downturned, since it also will function as primary siphon in an emergency. 
Further to this point, the primary does NOT have to be downturned (since it has no 'activator'), but it's better to do so, IME. As long as it's submerged, it'll work.
OP, if you look at Barr's design again, you'll see that some of the media is emersed, some submerged - there's a drip tray there.
You ONLY have to seal the wet/dry area - as in Tom Barr's sump, once you use baffles to separate the return area and wet/dry (drain) area, the return area does not require sealing.
See my sump in the pic below...this is a Bean system into a wet/dry, although I must seal my entire sump to reduce CO2 losses.










Hope that helps! It's a great low-maintenance/high-reliability/high filtration system.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

I agree 100% with the bean is a set it and forget it. On top of that, its virtually quite. The secondary can activate itself as a full if the primary clogs or plugs. The dangling tube is set just above the water level above the primary's weir. The weir would be the inside 90 degree bend of the elbow (the point at which the water goes horizontal after entering the elbow). Once water goes over the tube entry, the tube sucks all the air out and the secondary at that point takes on the load as the primary. The emergency can sometimes just be a vertical tube at the max height that you will allow the water to ever get. This obviously depend on if you do an internal or external overflow though. The bean is a system of redundancy in mind and a flood proof overflow system.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Don't forget the internal/external combo overflow! I'm much preferring it to the internal overflow -> external piping I had the first time around.


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

crazymittens said:


> Don't forget the internal/external combo overflow! I'm much preferring it to the internal overflow -> external piping I had the first time around.


I agree wholly. I did the internal -> external piping and definitely would go the external box route next time myself.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Glass cutting, once you get the hang of it, is really not that difficult for DIY jobs. If you want a cheap source of perfectly acceptable glass, get yourself a 20 or 30 gallon tank and recycle it.

Plus, with an external box, you can do emersed growth! 

Not the final setup, but you get the idea...


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## dasob85 (Feb 4, 2012)

Nice.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

crazymittens said:


> Glass cutting, once you get the hang of it, is really not that difficult for DIY jobs. If you want a cheap source of perfectly acceptable glass, get yourself a 20 or 30 gallon tank and recycle it.


Funny you say that. I just bought a 15g with 1/4" glass for 40 bucks at petco Friday. I could not wait til the next petco sale for I need the practice now. I am ready to drill my 40b but I want the practice first. I just started breaking the tank down. It's derimmed and now I am taking all the silicone out. I have enough to practice drilling and make a few external overflow boxes if I go that route. Other wise I will have to wait for the $ sale for several 36" long tanks and break them down to make internal coast to coast overflows for my 40g tank.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

That's one way to do it! I got mine off Craigslist. Getting the old silicone out is the most challenging part, haha!

I would advise re-thinking C2C overflow along the length...unless you are running super-high flow rates (like 10-20x turnover), you can get the same surface skimming from an end-overflow.

The main reason I won't do that again is that it gets covered with algae and is hard to clean. You then have a big rectangle of algae at the most visible part of the tank.


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## chenboyu (Nov 17, 2013)

I know i is a siphon, but will it brwak the siphon, and fail to start automatically?


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

If you build as the design states, the siphon will never fail to work. If you have the primary clogged (no siphon due to clog), the water level rises, blocks off the red tube, and the secondary becomes full siphon.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The LR filters are really the best wet/dry filters ever made.

But...the CPR 1000 I have there does everything we might need a sump/wet/dry to do, other than be cheaper. I've owned a couple LF's from way back.


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

crazymittens said:


> That's one way to do it! I got mine off Craigslist. Getting the old silicone out is the most challenging part, haha!
> 
> I would advise re-thinking C2C overflow along the length...unless you are running super-high flow rates (like 10-20x turnover), you can get the same surface skimming from an end-overflow.
> 
> The main reason I won't do that again is that it gets covered with algae and is hard to clean. You then have a big rectangle of algae at the most visible part of the tank.


You know I actually considered doing the overflow on the ends to save money and space but with the way I built my stands, I wanted to conceal as much pvc as possible and not have to worry about painting the pvc. Plus I also wanted to avoid looking at the edge of an overflow from the side. Considering I was going to paint the elbows with black fusion since the bulkheads are black, I could do end overflows still. All in all, an external in the rear would suffice the most. I will weigh my odds again.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Tom, thanks for chiming in...I know what sump to take my design from next time. 

flight50, there's another guy on here who was building essentially the same thing as what I did, only his stand came up at the end to encase the PVC beneath the overflow. I really like that idea. Wouldn't have worked in my situation, but still had a very slick appearance for the peninsula design.


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## makutaku (Aug 19, 2004)

*Sealed wet-dry ? Why bother ?*

Here's one question I haven't found an answer for:

"What's the benefit of the wet-dry section if it's sealed ?"

Unless your sump already has it, it makes no sense to me to build a sump with a wet-dry section if I would have to seal it. 

If that section is sealed, no external O2 will dissolve into the water, other than the existing O2 trapped in that section dissolving back into the water when the lights are off. So the only benefit I see in terms of O2 is a decrease in the variation of O2 concentration, but that's probably negligible.

Maybe the benefit comes in terms of better of bio filtration, with bacteria living an almost dry environment ? 

Vis-à-vis the challenge of keeping higher concentration of CO2, (and additional noise due to a dripping tray), it's logical to me that a fully wet sump is more appropriate to our application.


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