# My new Apistos



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Picked up this pair a few weeks ago. My first 

I have been upgrading my 10g recently: AQUATEK CO2 Regulator Mini (finally took the plunge from DIY) & Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus. 

Will post FTS soon.


----------



## Ashraf (Oct 7, 2014)

Nice


----------



## MaroMan (Jan 6, 2010)

Awesome color to those! good find!


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

leemacnyc said:


> Picked up this pair a few weeks ago. My first
> 
> I have been upgrading my 10g recently: AQUATEK CO2 Regulator Mini (finally took the plunge from DIY) & Current USA Satellite Freshwater LED Plus.
> 
> Will post FTS soon.


Looks like 2 males though, are you keeping both in a 10g? You're going to end up with some battles in there. Apistos in general shouldn't be in less than 20g, and even then I wouldn't do 2 males.

Great looking colors on them though.


----------



## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

bsantucci said:


> looks like 2 males though, are you keeping both in a 10g? You're going to end up with some battles in there. Apistos in general shouldn't be in less than 20g, and even then i wouldn't do 2 males.
> 
> Great looking colors on them though.


+1..


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks guys they were a good find. I pretty sure it's a pair Just a very colorful female or 2 males that get on like white on rice.

I previously kept/bred GBR's in here (10g) for years w/ no issues.


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

leemacnyc said:


> Thanks guys they were a good find. I pretty sure it's a pair Just a very colorful female or 2 males that get on like white on rice.
> 
> I previously kept/bred GBR's in here (10g) for years w/ no issues.


It's definitely two males, you can tell by the pectoral fins and the elongated top fin. They are new in the tank so may not have marked territories, but you're going to run into issues once they do. 

They may co-exist, but one will dominant over the other and you'll get a submissive male. I know this cause I had a mistaken male who I thought was female for a year.

The tank is still too small regardless. Just cause it worked doesn't make it right, they need swimming space realistically.


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

bsantucci said:


> It's definitely two males, you can tell by the pectoral fins and the elongated top fin. They are new in the tank so may not have marked territories, but you're going to run into issues once they do.
> 
> They may co-exist, but one will dominant over the other and you'll get a submissive male. I know this cause I had a mistaken male who I thought was female for a year.
> 
> The tank is still too small regardless. Just cause it worked doesn't make it right, they need swimming space realistically.


The sleeper-male syndrome? I respectfully disagree.


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

To be honest, yours don't look at all like females, this one really isn't even difficult to tell.

Females will have black on the pelvic fins, yours have blue. Female do not have the elongated ray on the dorsal fin, yours does. 

What is your reasoning for thinking there is a female, or rather, which do you think is female? Not trying to argue or sound combative, but I'd rather sort it out with/for you to avoid problems going forward.

For comparison here is my sub-dom male that I thought was female for a year almost haha. You'll see it is much smaller, same size as the female, golden color (female mating colors), but as ErtyJr (hopefully he'll chime in here as he is the resident apisto expert) pointed out the sub dom male showed no black on pelvic fins.









And here is my true female(note the black pelvic fins and gold color)









Her mate for comparison:


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Nice shots thanks bsan. Appreciate any & all input

The body on the smaller one (left) is more of a stocky torpedo shape and the mouth is considerably smaller in overall scale. While the dorsal spike is high, the scale in comparison to the "male" is not even close. 

I have read that several of the main factors distinguishing the sexes may now be less obvious or blurred due to selective breeding. But the main reason I believe it's a pair is their disposition. They have staked their claim to a cave and the smaller "female" guards it vehemently. Their displays to one another seem to me much more mating than territorial. 

cheers


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Do you have more pictures? I really wouldn't consider behavior as a way to sex them honestly. What you described are sub-dom features. My sub-dom flirted with my male and tricked me for a year along with the male....so they are good at it!

You're not going to get a female w/o the black pelvic fins so that's a real easy way to sex. My sub-dom male had the exact same dorsal spike, higher than the rest, but not as high as the other male. It's them hiding. While mine was sick and I had to remove him to a QT tank, he changed appearance rather quickly being the only male in there and it was blatantly obvious it was a male at that point. That stocky torpedo body your describing is them hiding their sex. I have no idea how they do it, but they do. Apisto's are really weird like that.

The blue/clearish pelvic fins are the dead give away in my opinion though.


----------



## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

2 males IMO.
Hope they breed for you though, mine did.
I ended up keeping 3 that turned out to be males!
Took me almost 4 months to realize,they were all fine in a 29.
They just never bred.


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Hmmm...Quite interesting. I didn't realize they had these polymorphic traits. I'll have to check out those pelvic fins when i get home! Thanks Bsan!


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

leemacnyc said:


> Hmmm...Quite interesting. I didn't realize they had these polymorphic traits. I'll have to check out those pelvic fins when i get home! Thanks Bsan!


No problem! Let us know what you discover.


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

fo sure

Bump: P.S.- Bsan i'll be joining that Satellite Plus club soon (love it) & hopefully the 12g mr. Aqua too


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Awesome, you'll like it a lot. Great light for the 12 long. That tank for me is a shell dweller cichlid tank, I'm only growing anubias and ferns on rock in there. I have to keep the light dimmed to avoid algae cause it's so shallow and lack of plant mass. If you plant well though you'll be all good!


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Houston we have a black pelvic ray fin sighting


----------



## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

I've seen females like that before actually..


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Still a male, I haven't seen anything to sway me. That photo is shaded, the first photo of the fish in the light those fins are clearly blue hued.

The tops fins are totally elongated and the stumpy looking body is a sub-dom trait. 

I mean, it would be great for you if I'm wrong, but I just don't see it.


----------



## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

bsantucci said:


> Still a male, I haven't seen anything to sway me. That photo is shaded, the first photo of the fish in the light those fins are clearly blue hued.
> 
> The tops fins are totally elongated and the stumpy looking body is a sub-dom trait.
> 
> I mean, it would be great for you if I'm wrong, but I just don't see it.


Black pectoral fins and black goatee gill plate.


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

brooksie321 said:


> Black pectoral fins and black goatee gill plate.


It doesn't have black pectoral fins, see the first photo in post 1. This other photo is in shade so it is looking black. Not seeing the black under lip either in both shots.


----------



## Culprit (Nov 6, 2012)

Nice fish ,hope u got a pair.
I see 2 males also.
With tank strain fish sometimes its hard to tell.


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Victor/Victoria. It's a female impersonating a male impersonating a female!


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

Hey there guys, sorry I'm late to the party but I didn't know this thread was even here. Just received a pm showing me the way (thanks coralbandit)

Ok so lee, to be clear the second pic is the same fish correct? If so you do have a female there(in my opinion)

When I saw your first picture I did believe it to be a strong possibility of being a sub dominate male except the body shape was a bit odd.

I personally have bred my pairs and ended up with females with both extended dorsal rays as well as large amounts of color. And you were correct in saying that through selective breeding we have made it very difficult to distinguish males from females.

But the one trait I have never seen (for the record just because I have not seen it does not mean it hasn't happened) in "sneaker males" is the black in the pelvic fins, as previously mentioned.

Now what I can say after seeing the second picture is I believe you have a very gorgeous male and female pair. But I can not say 100% as the first picture it looked both very male and very female to me. If you had a short video of how the two interact with each other I could give a more definite answer, as a sneaker male has much different personality than a female.

That being said, 10 gallons is very small for a permanent housing for even a m & f pair. I keep my pairs in smaller at times, but I always separate them after a spawning.

You may want to start looking for a tank where you can keep the male when the female (if it is one) lays eggs.

If it's not a female you're in for a bumpy ride!


----------



## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

Big thanks E.
Hope I am not out of line?
First I respect the opinion and now ask if we all look at the first pic of the pair,
is it dark enough to hide the black on "her" pelvic fins?
I think I see them now?
"That being said"used to say the same thing about GBR ,but no more!
The constant lack of fresh(wild caught) stock and over breeding,has made the "black on pelvic fins" one of the worst indicators going.Any of my GBR could have black pelvic fins and do.
When E said "except the body shape was a bit odd",that's the trained eye.
I can't tell better then any other with my own fish ,except behavior(observation),and subtle difference in shape way more then color.
Thanks E


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

ErtyJr said:


> Hey there guys, sorry I'm late to the party but I didn't know this thread was even here. Just received a pm showing me the way (thanks coralbandit)
> 
> Ok so lee, to be clear the second pic is the same fish correct? If so you do have a female there(in my opinion)
> 
> ...


Thanks Erty I appreciate your input. Yes 2nd photo is of the same fish (smaller one) in the 1st photo. Unable to see the black in the pelvic fins unless they are fully extended, as its only the 1st ray or 2. Looking from underneath they are clearly visable when folded against the body. I'll get that back-up tank started:icon_roll


----------



## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

Coralbandit said:


> Big thanks E.
> Hope I am not out of line?
> First I respect the opinion and now ask if we all look at the first pic of the pair,
> is it dark enough to hide the black on "her" pelvic fins?
> ...


Gbr and apistos are not the same, can't really borrow characteristics there.. if anything is clear cut and dry with apistos it's the black pectoral fins.. here's a little example of what an apisto can do to "fit in" or "not get murdered to death" 


Coralbandit said:


> Big thanks E.
> Hope I am not out of line?
> First I respect the opinion and now ask if we all look at the first pic of the pair,
> is it dark enough to hide the black on "her" pelvic fins?
> ...


Gbr and apistos are not the same, can't really borrow characteristics there.. if anything is clear cut and dry with apistos it's the black pectoral fins.. here's a little example of what an apisto can do to "fit in" or "not get murdered to death"


----------



## FishnFins (Jun 10, 2014)

Great looking apistos! Just curious what are the parameters in that tank?


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

FishnFins said:


> Great looking apistos! Just curious what are the parameters in that tank?


Me?:icon_smil Thanks FnF!

I haven't tested in a few years. I haven't really had any issues with unexplained deaths, disease or algae outbreaks. 50% WC each week religiously, dose EI and add CO2.

I've made some upgrades to my "winter garden" recently. I'll start a more comprehensive post on the tank soon and make sure and include parameters.


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

leemacnyc said:


> ErtyJr said:
> 
> 
> > Hey there guys, sorry I'm late to the party but I didn't know this thread was even here. Just received a pm showing me the way (thanks coralbandit)
> ...


Often times I have found when the pelvic fins are not fully extended it is a very unreliable way to try and judge the color. When folded up the blue can often appear black, but when in the light and extended shows a definitive blue color.

The best indicator out there for someone who hasn't dealt with lots of apistos is that solid black stripe in the front of the pelvic fins. The location is important as well as there is now quadra red strains that have red checkering in the pelvic fin. It is not the same as the black stripe though. I will attach a picture of one of my females for reference. It has to be, exactly where you stated, in the first few rays. As the female gets more into breeding dress it becomes much darker and more prominent.

With all that being said, Coralbandit is 100% correct in saying this isn't fool proof, and is only a very good indicator but not perfect. In all honesty the best way for me to decide if you have a female is by me watching a ton of video or seeing them in person. The best way for a more novice apisto keeper is to see if she has eggs =P

EDIT- One other indicator I used and forgot to mention in my previous post, in your photo, both fish are swimming together and relaxed but obviously aware of each other. This would not be normal with a sneaker male, he would likely try to avoid the male as the male continously tried to court him. But then again this is the photography section, maybe it was just a nice photo (which for the record it is a truly wonderful photo)

Even if your large male does turn on the fish, it does not even necessarily mean you have 2 males. If a female does not show intentions to breed, the male will turn on the female and try to remove her from his territory to make room for a female who is ready. 

Long story short, behavior is also not a perfect indicator =P

What I can say is I very rarely misjudge the sex when sexing an Apistogramma, especially cacatuoides as I am very familiar with them. But I think this may be the most difficult to judge fish I have ever encountered as well. I am in no way promising you have a female, but I think you do. But the more pictures or video you can provide of the fish in question with fully extended fins and profile shots, or interactions with the definitive male, the better an answer I can give.


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

Thanks again Erty I really appreciate the input! I'll try and get another shot soon, but I'm not really questioning their genders. They "compliment" each other, not sure how else to put it:fish::fish::thumbsup:


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

I'd like to vary their diet if anyone has any suggestions. Their current staple is live blackworms.


----------



## mistuhmarc (Oct 1, 2013)

A good flake food will always be necessary. Mine didn't accept flake at first but overtime they gradually ate it.


----------



## brooksie321 (Jul 19, 2014)

I feed mine frozen spirulina brine shrimp, mysis, cylopees, bloodworms, krill pellets and omega one mixed with cobalt flake..


----------



## leemacnyc (Dec 28, 2005)

thanks guys...heading to my lfs now


----------



## bsantucci (Sep 30, 2013)

Yeah I'm heavy on the frozen foods. I think I do every other day frozen and Thera a sinking pellets


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

I don't feed my apistogramma any flake.

Mine get many different foods but there is no flake. NLS pellets Thera A .5 mm are a good choice. Repashy gel food makes some quality food. There are many good choices. Personally I think there are very few good flake choices though.

Some frozen options are frozen beefheart, blood worms, mysis shrimp, and anything meaty.

A good rule of thumb is that if people recommend the food for discus, than it is good for apisto.

In the wild these fish are micropredators. What this translates to is they need far less vegetable matter, and much more protein in their diet than most tropical fish we are used to. If you want more info on foods there is plenty more I could recommend.


----------



## ErtyJr (Jun 21, 2014)

Just wondering did they ever spawn for you?


----------

