# How long did your Tonina Belem Last before it melts?



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

You've got to have a low kH...3 or less is better, or it will melt...
What is your kH out of the tap?


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## oceanaqua (Nov 24, 2005)

kH is about 10...how do you make it go lower?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

RO water, you can get a good 100GPD RO unit off ebay for around $100/ish shipped.
kH of 10..ouch! Tonina will not live in that at all...


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

If you want to grow Tonina, with your kH you will need one of these.

http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUA-AQUARIUM-1...itemZ4443362804QQcategoryZ20684QQcmdZViewItem


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## oceanaqua (Nov 24, 2005)

Ouch! Curently investing in a 20 pound co2 tank, I guess I have to move my tonina to another tank with ro water bought locally.


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## CrownMan (Sep 8, 2005)

I have had my Belem for over 2 weeks now. My KH is 4, GH 8. Mine is also showing signs that something is not right. It is growing taller and I am getting some side shoots but there are a lot of brown older leaves and the new leaves start developing brown tips rather quickly. It does pearl well though. I have it under 4.5wpg CF, spaced well apart and heavy on the CO2 in flourite. I dose EI with LOTS of traces and Fe.

My Tonina Fluvi is growing well. About half an inch a week and a lot fuller than when I got it over 2 weeks ago. 

Mike


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## oceanaqua (Nov 24, 2005)

I have alot of brown leaves also, but the tip is fine. Craig, do I connect the RO unit directly to the tank, or have it filter water in a bucket and do water change with it?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> RO water, you can get a good 100GPD RO unit off ebay for around $100/ish shipped.
> kH of 10..ouch! Tonina will not live in that at all...


Agreed.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

oceanaqua said:


> Craig, do I connect the RO unit directly to the tank, or have it filter water in a bucket and do water change with it?


Would be a rather slow way to fill a tank directly with an RO unit, it takes about one and a half hour to fill a 5g bucket with a 100GPD.

My Tonina tank is a 29g at this time, so anytime during the week I fill 2/5g buckets, I mix 50/50 my kH on tap is 4, that give's me 2/ish kH in the tank, I also keep Cherrie Red's in there, no fish at this time.
The tank being small, using bucket's doesn't bother me.

Depending on the size of the tank in question, with a kH of 10, I would cut the RO about 80/20, if you have fish move them out till you get the hang of it, that way, no worry about a ph crash, the plant's love it, fish do not..lol


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## toofazt (Jun 18, 2005)

Is it possible to have fish with a KH of 2?


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Cardinal's are great for this setup, they love the soft water, although you have to acclimate them very slowly.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

If you run peat in your filtration system, that will soften your water. This is what I am planning to do to keep Toninas and some Ludwigias I have coming in to sell.


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## toofazt (Jun 18, 2005)

I am injecting CO2. So I could have a kh of 3 easily with rams. But if I go down to 2 I will have a ph crash? What exactally is a ph crash?


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Wow.....quite the quandary. You need low alkalinity, yet doing so will cause pH to drop dramatically with CO2 injection. Is this one of those species that has to be a "special needs" tank?


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

It's possible to do so. My tank is currently running at KH 2 with a pH of 6.2.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

toofazt said:


> But if I go down to 2 I will have a ph crash? What exactally is a ph crash?


Not necessarily, but the chance's of it crashing are much more probable.

In a nutshell, a crash is when the water become's to acidic for fish to live, most plant's do not care, to a certain degree that is.

The concentration of hydrogen ions is commonly expressed in terms of the pH scale. Low pH corresponds to high hydrogen ion concentration and vice versa. A substance that when added to water increases the concentration of hydrogen ions(lowers the pH) is called an acid. A substance that reduces the concentration of hydrogen ions(raises the pH) is called a base. Finally some substances enable solutions to resist pH changes when an acid or base is added. Such substances are called buffers. Buffers are very important in helping organisms maintain a relatively constant pH.
http://staff.jccc.net/pdecell/chemistry/phscale.html

The hardness of water is related to the dissolved minerals in contains. The total hardness is usually regarded as consisting of two components: general hardness (GH) and carbonate hardness (KH). General hardness is caused by divalent metal ions, primarily calcium and magnesium. Carbonate hardness is due to carbonate/bicarbonate ions, and represents the main 'buffering capacity' of the water, i.e. its ability to resist pH changes. KH and pH are therefore inter-related: if KH is high, the pH will be very stable (and difficult to alter), if KH is low (e.g. less than 3 degrees KH) then the pH will be less stable.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/hardness.htm



Robert H said:


> If you run peat in your filtration system, that will soften your water. This is what I am planning to do to keep Toninas and some Ludwigias I have coming in to sell.


Placing peat in the filter will not be good enough to grow Tonina well, you will be better off building a tank for it, that is what work's, it need's soft acid's ph 5.0~6.5 is about the range. 

Depending on organic's/peat to soften hard water enough for Tonina is falling short, it has been tried many time's, The plant's like soft water in conjunction with organic's. Or, setup an emersed system.
L. Pantanal, L. Glandulosa, L. Brevipe's/Arcuata all Tonina's, Erio's, all Rotala's, especially Vietnam/Hippirus look exceptional, you can tell they like it.



mrbelvedere138 said:


> Wow.....quite the quandary. You need low alkalinity, yet doing so will cause pH to drop dramatically with CO2 injection. Is this one of those species that has to be a "special needs" tank?


You need acidity, not alkalinity, low alkaline is ph7 or neutral, after that is goes acidic.
I would not call it "special needs" per se, acidic sub is a plus, low kH is a must.
As with any tank, knowing your source water is a key, knowing how to use the C02/light is a key, knowing how to dose without testing this and/or testing that, is a key.
If you have to have every test kit known to mankind along with pH probe's before you can make a move, you may have a little trouble.. lol


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