# All my shrimp died :(



## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

so ive had my 6.5g fluval chi up for a about 6 months now and i started with 4 guppies, they had babies and off the babies and original fish , 1 baby survived. I had five shrimp that were healthy for the past 5 months up until yesterday when i found them on bottom.

i was told after that guppies were a bad choice and were sensitive to change, but i don't know why the shrimp all died. 

I made no changes this week at all to the tank. 

i have two African swords for plants, some jave moss and a small co2 system with the stock light on the chi. 

is there a part of the water chemistry that the shrimp are sensitive too?


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## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Sorry to hear that. What kind of shrimp did you have in the tank and how often do you test your water?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Well guppies are usually pretty hardy.. If they all died I'd be amazed that the shrimp didn't, definitely sounds like an ammonia and/or nitrite spike in the tank..

+1 demonr6, definitely what we need to know..


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## gnod (Mar 24, 2011)

^dang.. that sucks. let me know when you set up your tank and everything seems to be good. ill send some red cherries over to help you set up again


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Your co2, how many bps is it running at? Do you have a drop checker? And how often do you do a water change? And what are your water parameters. And, um, what kind of shrimp are they?


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## trixella (Jan 24, 2011)

Did you put fertilizer or new food in the tank? Anything with copper? What's the temperature?


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

There are a lot of things that can kill shrimp, since they are sensitive to water conditions and relative to fish pretty fragile. Without more information it is difficult to make a judgement, but if your baby fish are dying as well that should tell you that something is wrong with the water parameters.
A few things to check are that you are not overfeeding the tank and you are doing your weekly water change. Also, any medications, especially ones with copper may be lethal to your shrimp. Lastly, the PH of the water will typically drop during the night since the plants are not using CO2, but giving it off. If your filter isn't going or is plugged up the PH can drop to dangerous levels, ESPECIALLY in smaller tanks. 
Ironically, that is what just happened to me last night. My parents popped a fuse during the night and didn't bother to change it or inform me until morning. As soon as I woke up and noticed my bedroom had no power I ran straight for the fusebox and replaced it immediately. I lost half a dozen cherry shrimp, but that is out of dozens, so it could have been worse.
I do recommend running some tests on your tank to get a better idea of what the problem may be. Until you know what the problem is, it will be difficult to fix it.


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## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

ive decided to pull the plug on the chi and re do it today , the remaining fish got put in my indoor pond for now. 

ive started a journal for the chi re do.

I bought a bag of the fluval plant substrate and a new test kit today as i think mine had expired it was a few years old.


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## Quentin (Mar 16, 2011)

Lol, you totally ignored everyone's questions...


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## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

yes your right i suppose i did, sorry, the shrimp were red cherries, i wasent giving them shrimp minerals or anything like that , they seamed happy eating the fish food so i never tryed to give them anything else. The chi evaporates pretty quick thanks to the waterfall thing on top so i probably topped off a gallon or so every few days, that pretty much was my water changes. My ph tests were coming back a bit on the low side , don't remember an exact number but i think my test kit was bad, the nitrates and ammonia were coming up with nothing too. I bought a new test kit today and will test the water tonight and get a baseline reading and see if the tank will do a mini cycle or anything since i took it apart today. 

as far as chemicals, i had three seachem flourish tabs in the substrate (beach sand) but other than that i never added anything else, 

I am on a well so i dont have to worry about clorine in the top off water but i dont think ive ever checked my well water for hardness , and calcium ect, it might be time to do that.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

stuie25 said:


> yes your right i suppose i did, sorry, the shrimp were red cherries, i wasent giving them shrimp minerals or anything like that , they seamed happy eating the fish food so i never tryed to give them anything else. The chi evaporates pretty quick thanks to the waterfall thing on top so i probably topped off a gallon or so every few days, that pretty much was my water changes. My ph tests were coming back a bit on the low side , don't remember an exact number but i think my test kit was bad, the nitrates and ammonia were coming up with nothing too. I bought a new test kit today and will test the water tonight and get a baseline reading and see if the tank will do a mini cycle or anything since i took it apart today.
> 
> as far as chemicals, i had three seachem flourish tabs in the substrate (beach sand) but other than that i never added anything else,
> 
> I am on a well so i dont have to worry about clorine in the top off water but i dont think ive ever checked my well water for hardness , and calcium ect, it might be time to do that.


Well water is generally pretty hard. You can't substitute water changes for top offs it will just increasingly raise your hardness and TDS. If you were adding a new gallon every few days after a few months in a 6.5g tank your hardness and TDS were probably sky high. 

On a side note, who told you guppies were sensitive to change? I wish I could kill my guppies, they have gone through everything and I haven't lost one.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Cherries are pretty bomb-proof. To give you an example of just how bomb-proof, I once yanked some excess Xmass moss from my main tank and through it in a cereal bowl with some water. It stayed there for 2 months, and I never touched except to occasionally put a a table spoon of water in the bowl to top off from evaporation. 

When I finally went to sell this moss (which was still green and healthy btw), I noticed 3 juvie cherry shrimps still alive and seemingly doing fine.

That said, there are steps you can take to prevent what happened to you, especially if you are dosing CO2 in any form.

First, use aeration at night when your lights go off via an air pump and airstone. This will counter-balance the CO2 that is being given off by the CO2 during the day, and greatly increase your shrimps health at night, diminishing chances for sudden death due to toxicity. 

Also, make a small investment in a GH and KH test, and make sure they are within normal range. For cherries, honesty they can survive through almost anything, but for other species, like CRS for example, you'll want the KH very low (2 or less), and the GH in the 3 to 6 range. 

Also, make sure you are washing your hands before they ever hit your tank water. Some small remnant on your hands could be enough to contaminate water.


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## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

i only run the co2 for a few hours a day at "about" 1 bubble per second, i say about becuse i dont have an actual bubble counter and i only do a few hours a day because i have to turn it on and off.


i would very much like to automate the system somehow but that would require a much more complex c02 setup

i was under the understanding that the co2 and light should be on and off at the same time , is that correct ?


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

You absolutely cannot substitute topping a tank off for water changes. Using that method will eventually kill everything in your tank. If you have a tank with a high evaporation rate you can top it off a few times during the week, but you absolutely have to do your weekly water changes. Not only will the water hardness continue to rise if you don't, but waste will continue to build up until it reaches toxic levels. Making that change alone will go a long way toward keeping your next batch of cherries alive. :icon_mrgr


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Aphyosemion said:


> You absolutely cannot substitute topping a tank off for water changes. Using that method will eventually kill everything in your tank. If you have a tank with a high evaporation rate you can top it off a few times during the week, but you absolutely have to do your weekly water changes. Not only will the water hardness continue to rise if you don't, but waste will continue to build up until it reaches toxic levels. Making that change alone will go a long way toward keeping your next batch of cherries alive. :icon_mrgr


There is a pretty infamous LFS in San Francisco that you can find in a back alley way. They have been around forever. They likely have 50 tanks in this store, and they do zero water changes. You never see dead fauna in the tanks. 

Similarly, there is an infamous German breeder of very rare inverts. His advice when keeping and breeding delicate specimens like Panda, BKK, and WR? No water changes. Top off only. 

So, although your premise works quite well for the vast major of people and is the standard, there are exceptions to this rule I think. Actually testing the water regularly for hardness and TDS will go a long, long way, and I have no idea how people survive without these tools.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

youjettisonme said:


> There is a pretty infamous LFS in San Francisco that you can find in a back alley way. They have been around forever. They likely have 50 tanks in this store, and they do zero water changes. You never see dead fauna in the tanks.
> 
> Similarly, there is an infamous German breeder of very rare inverts. His advice when keeping and breeding delicate specimens like Panda, BKK, and WR? No water changes. Top off only.
> 
> So, although your premise works quite well for the vast major of people and is the standard, there are exceptions to this rule I think. Actually testing the water regularly for hardness and TDS will go a long, long way, and I have no idea how people survive without these tools.


And if you do regularly test hardness and TDS you will soon realize that if you do not do water changes they will slowly clime to hazardous points. 

I'm not going to argue "water changes vs top off" but in a 6.5g tank if you are adding a gallon or two gallons of "top off" water will well water (which is generally hard in the first point) you will reach a hazardous level very quickly.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

A lot of things may be possible that still aren't really a good idea. For the typical person your hardness and waste products will keep climbing until you reach toxic levels without much of a doubt. You could slow that down drastically by topping off with RO water and having a tank that is very well balanced between plants and animals and by doing regular water testing to make sure nothing is out of whack, but you still may experience a buildup of less harmful water yellowing organics. When you think about it though, how much sense does it make to go through all that effort to avoid changing 3 gallons of water a week?
Common sense should prevail here, especially when giving advice to people new to the hobby.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Bahugo said:


> And if you do regularly test hardness and TDS you will soon realize that if you do not do water changes they will slowly clime to hazardous points.
> 
> I'm not going to argue "water changes vs top off" but in a 6.5g tank if you are adding a gallon or two gallons of "top off" water will well water (which is generally hard in the first point) you will reach a hazardous level very quickly.


There is nothing for you to argue about. You have to take EVERYTHING into account in a tank. You can't just make a blanket statement and say "it's true for everyone and in every tank". All I did was mention exceptions, and took no exception whatsoever to you posting the "rule". If you preface what you say with "I mean with well water in a nano" then sure you have to do water changes.

I am breeding CRS/CBS hybrids in a nano with no water changes. Now what? Obviously, it's because I'm taking other considerations. In the end, like has been suggested, buy a water testing kit.


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## youjettisonme (Dec 24, 2010)

Aphyosemion said:


> A lot of things may be possible that still aren't really a good idea. For the typical person your hardness and waste products will keep climbing until you reach toxic levels without much of a doubt. You could slow that down drastically by topping off with RO water and having a tank that is very well balanced between plants and animals and by doing regular water testing to make sure nothing is out of whack, but you still may experience a buildup of less harmful water yellowing organics. When you think about it though, how much sense does it make to go through all that effort to avoid changing 3 gallons of water a week?
> Common sense should prevail here, especially when giving advice to people new to the hobby.


Giving advice to people new to the hobby is great as long as the advice given as not presented as "the only way", end of story. I never mentioned that the advice offered (regular water changes) was poor advice. Reread my post if you think that was said. Actually, for most tanks, regular water changes absolutely should be part of the equation, and anyone in the hobby will tell you this.

But to say, "no matter your tank or parameters, if you don't do weekly water changes then all your fauna will perish secondary to toxicity" simply isn't true.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

No one said it is the only way, only that it is the best way.  As a matter of fact what I said is that you could do it the no water change way, but it would probably end up being more difficult than just doing your water changes in the typical fashion, especially if you have a very small tank.
Unless you have some specific reason to avoid doing so, I don't see why you would make life more difficult for yourself.


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## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

i will probaly end up getting a RO unit soon as i now (as of yesterday) have a 60 gallon SW reef tank that im told i should only use RO water in. {it was given to me by a friend that was moving i couldn't say no}

As well i have a new test kit that works much better than my old one, so i can better monitor the parameters of the water. I will be doing some baseline test on my well water as well just to know for hardness and things.


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## Zack (May 6, 2011)

youjettisonme said:


> Giving advice to people new to the hobby is great as long as the advice given as not presented as "the only way", end of story. I never mentioned that the advice offered (regular water changes) was poor advice. Reread my post if you think that was said. Actually, for most tanks, regular water changes absolutely should be part of the equation, and anyone in the hobby will tell you this.
> 
> But to say, "no matter your tank or parameters, if you don't do weekly water changes then all your fauna will perish secondary to toxicity" simply isn't true.


Hi all, i'm from singapore, and i believe that here in singapore our shrimp keeping are more involved with more people.
top-up vs change water
i can give you several examples:
I do have a 10L tank (sorry we use litres here, not sure in gallons), i kept cherry, crs and GEBT in it. I do only top up water with BOTH water from tap(GH3, TDS 80+) and RO water. they do fine.
I have another 2 feet tank keeping higher grade shrimps (PRL hakata), I do not change water for 1~2 months, only topping up water with RO and minerals to achieve a overall TDS of 200 and gh 5. they do fine as well

However i have breeders ONLY topping up water and do not change water at all keeping kks, and wrs. they are breeding well and doing fine,

Thus, when you are topping up water, do check what is the parameters of the water being topped up.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

youjettisonme said:


> "I mean with well water in a nano" then sure you have to do water changes.


The OP said on the first page he is using well water.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Yeah you definitely only want to use RO water with your saltwater tanks. It is so you have better control over the parameters of the water, as well as keeping things like chlorine and other contaminants out. I did saltwater for a while, but everything I wanted to keep was either so fragile that I was afraid to try or it would eat everything else I wanted to keep. That is why I gave up on salt and stick with freshwater planted now.:hihi:


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## stuie25 (Apr 17, 2011)

this if off topic i know but this is my new salt tank, i bought a 12 gallon cad light that the fish will be moving into soon as this is just way to big for me. It was such a good deal that it was cheeper to buy the whole tank than it was to buy live rock and just the fish and shrimp from the store. so i will be selling the tank and filters and remainder of what i dont use and probably end up paying for the new 12g tank.


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## Inkling (Feb 11, 2011)

I'm intrigued by this whole top-off vs. water change debate. I have always done water changes that are on the small side, when compared to other aquarium keepers that I've talked to. When I've tried doing larger changes, bad things tend to happen to my plants. So, where would I fall on this spectrum? I've been doing small (10-20%) water changes for years...so don't tell me that I'll eventually crash and burn. Of course, I have LOTS of stem plants...So maybe that makes a difference, because they consume most of the extra nutrients?


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