# T-Rex Tigers (black tiger variant) - (8/22 update on black & red tigers)



## AlexXx (Dec 1, 2009)

interesting! they looks cool, how many generations have they came out like that?


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Those are really nice.


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## goddessjen (Mar 9, 2008)

OOooooohh:drool: Do the offspring look like the parents? You should post more pictures for us to drool over. They are very pretty. I am assuming you get some variety in marking and color. Can you demonstrate with photos if this is so?


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## goddessjen (Mar 9, 2008)

I really want some now. Hmmmm...There might be room in my office for another rack of 30 gallons...Husband or shrimp, husband or shrimp....This is going to take some thought.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

goddessjen said:


> I really want some now. Hmmmm...There might be room in my office for another rack of 30 gallons...Husband or shrimp, husband or shrimp....This is going to take some thought.



I'd go with the shrimp. LOL

I told my husband I am trading him in for a new tank the other day.


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## goddessjen (Mar 9, 2008)

Definitely. Seriously though these are absolutely gorgeous. DK, when do you think you will have the line ready to sell?


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Cool shrimp, but silly name. Why not call them leopards?


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

I like T-Rex. Take that Japanese breeders! America's out to get you 
*Team America theme*


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## xJaypex (Jul 4, 2009)

Wow, when will these be for sale?


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

I added a graphic in the third picture of the original post to show why I call them T-Rex Tigers - they remind me of dinosaur skeleton graphics.

They throw a range of qualities near the parent appearance, sort of like crystals do. Sometimes you get lucky and get a high grade black, more often you get a higher proportion of "lesser" grades with incomplete "bones" look about them - I happen to think these are the coolest looking, personally. Each one is unique. Some are more blue than others in the background coloring, just like the blue tigers show. One of these days I'll upgrade my camera and be able to take decent pictures.

I have a few more generations to go to lock in the orange eye; right now most are OE gene carriers and some are orange eye. I'm trying to get a production tank of them going. Shrimp have taught me, and taught me _well_, not to look too far into the future, just to focus on today and maybe the next month or so - all sorts of things can happen. I need the ones I have right now to continue development, so I don't anticipate parting with any this spring.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

high grades blacks with high grades BTs look really nice. 

What do you mean black tiger variant?


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

WOW this is really sick. Awesome stuff you have green.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

fishsandwitch said:


> What do you mean black tiger variant?


"Black Tiger" is a catch all term, really. The original "Black Tigers" were developed from tiger shrimp other than OE Blue Tigers. There are lines that have not been outcrossed to the Blue Tigers, that have dark eyes. The black is the result of breeding these tigers for extension of their black stripes toward total coverage, but the coverage isn't complete, or complete across the entire body and legs - weak in the tail and legs, for example. Putting this over the backdrop of the darkest blue blue tigers produces a blacker, more extended region shrimp as in your picture, and also enables breeding for the decorative orange eye in the process.

Many have been outcrossed to Blue Tigers, in an effort to produce more uniform darkness and in extended regions on the shrimp. The first generations of these are mostly dark eyed and lose a lot of the black width - these are the T-Rex types. Repeated selective backcrossings to F1 OE carriers brings back the black width and retains the OE to get to OE black tigers.

So, there are three different versions of "Black Tigers." One is the original tiger strain that carries the extended black genes but no blue tiger genes or orange eye genes, and shows dark eyes.

The second has been outcrossed into blue tigers, and is carrier of OE genes, but phenotype is dark eyes while genotype is heterozygous for OE/DE.

The third is the outcross that has been backcrossed to F1 or later and is now carrier of the extended black genes and homozygous for OE, and shows in phenotype the orange eyes.

Anybody's eyes glazed over, after all that?

DK


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## pam916 (Sep 6, 2009)

Beautiful shrimp.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

OK so how do you decide on which shrimps you are going to use...you just net the best of each and put them in a tank by themselves? one pair per tank or what? How would you know which one was the father or mother of the babies????

I know this sounds dumb but I have always wondered how one goes about selecting the shrimp they want to breed for better qualities and what do you do with them...put them in a 2.5 gallon so you can watch what happens or ????


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

janftica said:


> OK so how do you decide on which shrimps you are going to use...you just net the best of each and put them in a tank by themselves? one pair per tank or what? How would you know which one was the father or mother of the babies????
> 
> I know this sounds dumb but I have always wondered how one goes about selecting the shrimp they want to breed for better qualities and what do you do with them...put them in a 2.5 gallon so you can watch what happens or ????


Rule of thumb is you choose parents with characteristics closer to what you want than the general population, separate them out to breed, watch what they produce, try to deduce the genetics at work, and go from there. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Usually takes more patience than skill. There are tools for this such as breeder nets and in-tank nurseries.


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## vacaloca (Sep 28, 2009)

*Genes*



greenisgood said:


> Rule of thumb is you choose parents with characteristics closer to what you want than the general population, separate them out to breed, watch what they produce, try to deduce the genetics at work, and go from there. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Usually takes more patience than skill. There are tools for this such as breeder nets and in-tank nurseries.


So I'm going to continue this questioning, and hopefully someone smarter than me has experience... with the gene pool getting smaller with each breeding you start creating a more and more sensitive bloodline. So then do you reintroduce another specimen with similar characteristics, to add fresh genes? Possibly from someone else doing similar work? I mean, take something like the RCS - they're widely available, and each one carrying the red trait, but they're hardy little things... ??

-Jon


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

vacaloca said:


> So I'm going to continue this questioning, and hopefully someone smarter than me has experience... with the gene pool getting smaller with each breeding you start creating a more and more sensitive bloodline. So then do you reintroduce another specimen with similar characteristics, to add fresh genes? Possibly from someone else doing similar work? I mean, take something like the RCS - they're widely available, and each one carrying the red trait, but they're hardy little things... ??
> 
> -Jon


This is a really excellent question.

Healthy populations need to be built on a broad gene base. When first developing something, the gene base necessarily narrows as you backcross or inbreed, consolidating the genes (which are usually recessives) that produce the characteristics that are wanted. Fortunately, for shrimp, parties all over the world work on similar projects, and there are large numbers of shrimp, too, and fast breeding cycles.

When I set up a production tank, my goal is at least a hundred parent stock, and three divergent genetic sources. This is incredibly expensive to do, but results in the most robust population, in the end. If one doesn't have the option to search the globe for different genetics already bred into the specialty product, or if there aren't enough available or they are simply too expensive, then one can do outcrosses back to the original wild type or some generations down from it, get large numbers of offspring and then patiently re-breed subsequent generations back toward the end goal, selecting the best breeders from each generation, but now with more individuals to work with.

And then down the line, regular additions of fresh genes are important, too, for ongoing diversity in the gene pool.

The flip side of this is the cheap way and shortcut, where one buys half dozen of something, breeds them out to the hundreds, and then watches the colony slowly lose resilience, due to the accumulated effects of the too-narrow gene pool.


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## catfishbi (Jun 10, 2008)

I want eat those shrimp. &(^,....,^)&


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## vacaloca (Sep 28, 2009)

greenisgood said:


> This is a really excellent question.
> 
> Healthy populations need to be built on a broad gene base. When first developing something, the gene base necessarily narrows as you backcross or inbreed, consolidating the genes (which are usually recessives) that produce the characteristics that are wanted. Fortunately, for shrimp, parties all over the world work on similar projects, and there are large numbers of shrimp, too, and fast breeding cycles.
> 
> ...


Makes sense - start with a larger, diversified, pool. I was thinking about it the wrong way... starting with a small sample, and then adding diversity. Thanks for the input. :icon_bigg


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## dxiong5 (Sep 28, 2008)

Excellent work DK! 

When you say "black tiger shrimp outcrossed with blue tiger shrimp," I assume you're speaking about full-body black tigers..? I'm just curious as to how there is hardly any blue undertone from blue tigers to the ones in your pictures.

Your description of the three types of Black Tigers is in accordance to what I have read online and discussed with breeders from Asia and Germany. Now there are quite a few directions you can head from here: keep the T-Rex pattern and breed for both OE and black eyes; go for the Black Tiger with both OE and black eyes - I sure would love to see all of them! I kick myself every day for losing my OE Black Tigers.


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## Nue (Dec 27, 2009)

WOW DK! Those are Fantastic! Great JOB!!!!!! 




Im stunned.


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Here are some pictures (sorry for the quality) to illustrate the variants.

First is a picture that I think illustrates how the black of the stripes has been selectively bred for extended coverage. The coverage is usually not perfect, although breeders tend to show pictures of their most perfect shrimp, so we don't see many pictures of the in-between stages on the spectrum. This particular shrimp is fairly high grade but with one major flaw of a chunk of pigment missing on the side.

The second picture shows a black tiger variant with dark eyes that is not showing a lot of dark blue tiger support. Notice the weak pigment in the tail and rear legs, and rostrum, and lighter regions on the edge of the skirt. Also the pigment "cracks" between pieces of carapace.

The final pictures show a relatively high grade OE black tiger x dark blue tiger. Here, we have the orange eye, and extended "black" coverage with enhanced dark pigment from the dark blue influence. Notice the tail, legs, rear legs, and rostrum/antennae pigment, as compared to the other pics, above. And the "cracks" are now dark blue, helping to visually blend the overall appearance. Also, the "scallops" of the skirt seen light in the pics above, now are dark blue, helping to blend the appearance again - this skirt is not scalloped looking on casual observation. If you take one of these, and breed with a OE dark blue tiger, you will get some OE T-Rex tigers in F1s.

I should add that, by definition, an OE black tiger has been outcrossed with blue tigers along the way; that is how they incorporated the OE genes. OE black tigers are now being called Black Diamond shrimp by quite a few people in the hobby.


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## Nue (Dec 27, 2009)

I love it!!


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## Scipio (Feb 18, 2008)

Simply AWESOME!!!!!!


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## max23 (Feb 27, 2008)

wow, very beautiful shrimp.


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## jczz1232 (May 8, 2008)

DK Great work. Keep us updated


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## gordonrichards (Jun 20, 2009)

Love your Black Tigers Donna


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Hi All, 

Thought I'd stop in and update on a couple projects.

The black tiger F1s are doing great and heading toward reproductive age. These guys are a high strung strain that are both more sensitive and also more aggressive/hyper than any other shrimp I work with (probably from the extreme inbreeding). Yesterday a local TPT hobbyist came over and helped me set up the new production tanks for the black tigers. The seed tank, which has been running through F0-F1 will feed breeding stock to the production tanks, using F1s and F2s. The seed tank was designed and stocked for a broad genetic base. There are now hundreds of shrimp in there carrying black tiger genes from at least five varied sources (yeah, that's where all that Broke Student Crystals and Blue Tiger money went) that will hopefully produce nice, select breeders for the production tanks in the next few generations. The seed tank is producing really nice F1s in orange eye, black eye, T-rex, and then the lower grades - they are super vigorous and if I put my hand in there they swarm it like nobody's business like they are mosquitos!

Red tigers are also at the same stage, with a good crop of F1s from which I will pull from the seed tank to feed into a new production tank. This population has also been constructed with breeder stock from at least five sources.

Below are some pics, while y'all are waiting. They're kinda awful pictures as my camera isn't good and also they were zipping around like psychos in there. It's a long, patient wait for me, too, folks. I will try to get them available in F2 or F3 generation. 

*Please do not contact me right now about purchase, as neither are for sale today.* I will not take a waiting list or pre-orders or deposits on them as shrimp have taught me and taught me WELL not to get too far ahead of myself. But I will update as I make certain milestones of progress, such as this update.

BTW - I'm finally getting a decent camera next month. I've had to invest in other things up until then, but I hope to have _much_ improved pictures after next month.

Enjoy! Shrimp are addictive!

DK


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

Hey that local TPT hobbyist was me!


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

|GTO| said:


> Hey that local TPT hobbyist was me!


Yeah! Thanks again, Josh. I moved the third BT tiger tank this morning and got it re-plumbed. It's a temporary solution until I break down that tank, but everyone's happy now. The bulkheads are working flawlessly on the new tank(s). Yellows don't seem too perturbed this morning, after their move yesterday, either.

Josh can attest to why I don't get good tank photos...

D.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Great to see how the Black Tigers are going! Hopefully the people who have been waiting on your stock (me) will get to buy them soon from you!

Nothing like getting shrimp from stock you know is great. Just like your BTOEs!

Keep us updated DK!

(P.S. You know you will still get pmed about buying them. lol)


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

No problem DK!

Those shrimp are a long way out from potential sales but they sure will be nice when the time comes. The new set up will certainly allow for a more robust breeding program. The split 40 breeders are perfect


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Soon for me is like a year. lol


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Awesome, Donna! Looks like things are lookin' real good for you  Boy howdy, you'll be rollin' in dough pretty soon... _MY_ DOUGH!! muahaha


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Both our dough, lol


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## guppies (Jan 16, 2010)

greenisgood said:


> These guys are a high strung strain that are both more sensitive and also more aggressive/hyper than any other shrimp I work with (probably from the extreme inbreeding).
> 
> DK


I also observed that the OE Black tiger males are very aggressive than blue tigers or CRS. The females are normal.


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

Donna, what exactly is a split 40?? any pics of it...just wondered as I have a bigger long tank that I was thinking I could split into a double section somehow, but not sure how I would do that. Ive done it before for my bettas, but never for shrimps, so any help in that direction would be much appreciated.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

Its a 40 breeder that has a divider in it. That is my guess.

They have those dividers and stuff, but I am not sure about the netting on them. Wonder if you can replace the net with finer cloth if need be.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

i use glass for dividers, pretty easy to silicone in place, but it sounds like she's got a central filtration system set up. I have my racks set up so I can do this farther down the road. I even have the pvc for the manifold, just no free time or extra hands at the moment.


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

I didn't take any pictures when I was helping dk but she put a custom cut sheet in the middle of the 40 drilled for central plumbing. At the bottom there is a secret proprietary system below the gravel line for pressure equalization. Quite ingenious actually. The system will allow for 2 species to be housed in the same tank with no chance for breed mixing. 

Awesome setup


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## DANIELSON (Jul 15, 2010)

Nice shrimp!!


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

thats so sweet


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## janftica (Jan 11, 2010)

Wow now I need to see pics of this!!!


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

dk, you mentioned repeated back crossings. how often do you back cross?


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

greenisgood said:


> Yeah! Thanks again, Josh. I moved the third BT tiger tank this morning and got it re-plumbed. It's a temporary solution until I break down that tank, but everyone's happy now. The bulkheads are working flawlessly on the new tank(s). Yellows don't seem too perturbed this morning, after their move yesterday, either.
> 
> Josh can attest to why I don't get good tank photos...
> 
> D.


You are too short for the tall racks! haha


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Hey Josh,

Last night I bought myself a pump with 8 foot head height. It was time... no more messin' around. 

I think I'm going to order the parts to move the 75s, too. Now for the real estate question...

D.


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

greenisgood said:


> Hey Josh,
> 
> Last night I bought myself a pump with 8 foot head height. It was time... no more messin' around.
> 
> ...



Nice! The good 'ole manual filling just isn't your style :hihi:

Let me know when it is time to muscle those 75's around and I will swing by and help. I still think your best bet is to stack them on the opposite wall where some of those cabinets are. You could even get your husband to hang the wood cabinets above the work bench haha


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

|GTO| said:


> Nice! The good 'ole manual filling just isn't your style :hihi:
> 
> Let me know when it is time to muscle those 75's around and I will swing by and help. I still think your best bet is to stack them on the opposite wall where some of those cabinets are. You could even get your husband to hang the wood cabinets above the work bench haha


Ohyeahyeah... can you bring the dremel, too? I can get some bits. I'll use my diamond hole saws then on the 75s. Just ordered more bulkheads...

D.


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

greenisgood said:


> Ohyeahyeah... can you bring the dremel, too? I can get some bits. I'll use my diamond hole saws then on the 75s. Just ordered more bulkheads...
> 
> D.


Sure thing!

Just try and save some of those plants before you tear down! All those beautiful crypts and ferns and anubias. Would be a shame to trash them!


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

Just ordered the panels to split the 75s... cancelled the pump order and ordered the next BIGGER one, too...

OK, now I have to get serious about real estate...


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## |GTO| (Oct 9, 2006)

haha these shrimp are consuming you! 

I think you should do this:

stack 75's
split them both into 37.5's x 4
transfer your "junk" 65 gal CRS tank into one section of the upper level 75
make the 65 your stand alone planted tank/show tank

I am a genius I know haha.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

DK, can I move in with you? lololol


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

msnikkistar said:


> DK, can I move in with you? lololol


There'd be a high risk you'd end up a tank monkey, though...


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

greenisgood said:


> There'd be a high risk you'd end up a tank monkey, though...


I'll be a tank monkey willingly. lol


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

|GTO| said:


> make the 65 your stand alone planted tank/show tank


Two probs with this: that tank doesn't have the right light, and that tank is not show worthy. It's pretty banged up and scratched on the front. You just couldn't tell 'cause I keep it slimy for all those crystal babies to forage upon.

I've just spent a horrifying amount of money (and I still haven't ordered the rack parts, either) on all the parts to do this musical-tank-chairs game, and now I have to get off the computer and go pack shrimp to mail...

I do now have two full pressurized CO2 setups, including two 20 lb tanks, but now I may not even need them because once the 75s are on the system, they get CO2 twice daily!


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

timwag2001 said:


> dk, you mentioned repeated back crossings. how often do you back cross?


Oop, sorry Tim, you'd think I'd read my own thread more carefully. Just noticed this post.

Um, well it's kind of hard to say. What I'm doing right now is F0 gene mix generation. This is a mixture of breeding stock from varied sources that contain the specialized genes PLUS a sampling of more wild-type shrimp from the SAME original specie (outcross parents, I'm calling these guys). The F1s that are produced, as soon as they are about half inch, I remove the F0 parents I don't want in the mixture, so they don't accidentally breed back to their offspring and double up on the unwanted genes. Some of the F0 parents are outcross parents, with genes from the original specie, but not the specialty characteristics - they provide a broader genetic base to the population, but in F1 you get mostly junk looking shrimp until you remix them, then you get a small proportion of on the money type shrimp. (But you keep the outcross parents in the tank only until F1s are on the ground, or else you end up adding back into the mix the wrong set of unspecialized genes - you only want to add those genes in once, to broaden the gene base, then in subsequent generations you breed back toward specialized type.) I pull select F1s from the mix to seed a production tank, and leave the rest of the F1s to remix (this then is backcross generation #1 - because some of the original specialized genes parents are still in the mix tank to mix with the F1s in breeding.), then from that I'll be pulling select F2s to add to the production tank. After F2, then you can't really tell what's what in the original mix tank (because now F1s are adult size as are F0, so unless they phenotypically look different from F0, you don't know which generation is which), and you have to use breeder nets to isolate for breeding by phenotype, or something of that nature. I will probably leave the tank mixing through F3-5 and pull anything nice that results for the production tank. (In the meantime, anything not top notch produced in the production tank's F1 gets pulled and put BACK into the mix tank, to keep the genes in the population and remix them.)


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## timwag2001 (Jul 3, 2009)

i'm really getting interested in selectively breeding shrimp. thanks for the info. i'd like to pick your brain further if i get other questions if you dont mind


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

|GTO| said:


> Let me know when it is time to muscle those 75's around and I will swing by and help. I still think your best bet is to stack them on the opposite wall where some of those cabinets are.


(dramatic music crescendos in the background...)

Was able to secure the real estate, where you want (well, actually, where the shop bench is now)... not a small feat to get between a man and his shop bench... I have to quickly take the space before he changes his mind!!!

Industrial shelving on the way... all other parts and pieces here or in transit, too (except that most excellent pump, which is on backorder, but will be worth the wait...). These tanks are going to be 5th generation production tanks, and should be fun to set up... they're gonna put the 65 to SHAME when they are fired up and running...

Only thing left (darn you Josh!) I need is a SECOND sump pump and plumbing for it.

Should be ready to do the initial setup in a week... need the shelving to get here...

DK


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## stephenpence (Mar 5, 2010)

So, it's been a few months.. any updates on the shrimps/setups? I'm intrigued about the Red Tigers too! if you have the nicer camera you elluded to.. perhaps some pictures? As our shrimp idol you have a lot on your plate, but hey if you get a chance for some pictures that would be AWESOME...


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## DKShrimporium (Nov 23, 2004)

As luck would have it, we're snowed in today. I'll try to post an update thread later today on DK's mad doings. Here's a view out my front door.

DK


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## Moe (Jan 22, 2004)

Nice, just another reason to stay indoors and mess with your tanks!


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## yellowsno (May 15, 2011)

holy #@$! i love that snow camo look in the shrimp


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