# Purigen without Seachem



## Immortal1

Curious what the cost comparison would be...
1 cu.ft. = 1,728 cu in. $511.94 / 1,728 = 0.30 per cu.in.

I see Big Al's has the 100ml bags of Seachem Purigen for $8.38. The bag I have says Net 100mL (100cu.cm., 6 cu.in.) or $1.40 per cu.in.

Wow, that would be a a pretty big savings. Granted, the 100mL bags do come with the bag.


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## Lonestarbandit

And there is the matter of we don't need excessive amounts of the stuff but it is interesting.


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## thedood

Are we sure thats the same? Looks more round and ball like than purigen.


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## Lonestarbandit

No no that close up was some Chinese product. I don't have one of the Purolite

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## Lonestarbandit

Chinese Alternates

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## theatermusic87

I wonder if a bigger size bead is available, that's one if the reasons I've never looked into using the stuff is the beads are so small. I could live with reduced surface area for a more manageable size


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## Leeatl

I would like to think this is the same , but as I posted in the Matrix without Seachem thread , I don't think it is . I have researched some more and these resins are for removal of colors , odors , and to soften water , IE: they exchange minerals for sodium . Seachem "says" Purigen does not remove significant amounts of minerals . I am not convinced this would work as well as Purigen if at all other than to remove tannins and such . And cleaning it if is stained is no easy job . Just check out the Purolite website . And if I am correct , bleach is a no no with these resins . That is why there is a carbon filter before the softener in a system . Just my 2 cents . Now let me have it...lol


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## Lonestarbandit

Not sure what version you are looking at.

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## Lonestarbandit

TA213D /A680 does not say a thing about water softening that I can find, are you sure you aren't looking at the wrong resin product?









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## Lonestarbandit

theatermusic87 said:


> I wonder if a bigger size bead is available, that's one if the reasons I've never looked into using the stuff is the beads are so small. I could live with reduced surface area for a more manageable size


Don't think so? I haven't seen any that is.

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## ichy

you got my attention. maybe a local aquarium club could do a bulk buy!


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## ichy

the msds gives little clue as to what it is

Proprietary synthetic
macroporous polymer
resin


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## Leeatl

Lonestarbandit said:


> TA213D /A680 does not say a thing about water softening that I can find, are you sure you aren't looking at the wrong resin product?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


Look at the first sentence in item #4 that you posted . And even if it will do the same job as Purigen , it is not as easy to renew . That is where Seachem has the key , just a bleach soak to regenerate it .


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## Lonestarbandit

Leeatl said:


> Look at the first sentence in item #4 that you posted . And even if it will do the same job as Purigen , it is not as easy to renew . That is where Seachem has the key , just a bleach rinse to regenerate it .


Touche' you clearly got me there. I missed that entirely.
However do we know this cannot be regenerated by bleach and in fact do we know this isn't purigen? It IS acrylic plastic.
Given Seachem do try to hide their products composition it is tough to compare.
But they are rebranders and repackaging geniuses.
Matrix-Pumice
Excel-Glutaraldehyde
Flourish-Micro ferts
Flourish Iron-Ferrous Gluconate
So on so forth.....All are repurposed nothing is aquarium specific it has been adapted from other products and usage.


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## Leeatl

That I have not found out for sure yet . I am just basing it on my expeience with softener resins so I may have made a leap . The only thing I see about regen on this resin is with sodium or some nasty chems when badly stained . I will look further later on . I will give you the Seachem rebranding thing....lol That's why we are doing this , no?


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## Lonestarbandit

Leeatl said:


> That I have not found out for sure yet . I am just basing it on my expeience with softener resins so I may have made a leap . The only thing I see about regen on this resin is with sodium or some nasty chems when badly stained . I will look further later on . I will give you the Seachem rebranding thing....lol That's why we are doing this , no?


Quite. They have to have sourced the product from some plastic/chem producers. We just want to find these. The of course China will always have a competing version.>
Perhaps @flynruff has further thoughts as I credit the initial discovery to him as he located the Purolite A-680


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## ichy

please don't take this as an argument, I'm just trying to get as knowledgeable on this stuff as possible.

But why do you say #4 disqualifies it as doing the same as Purigen?


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## flynruff

I just Google searched for "organics removal resin".
I agree that many of these are used as water softeners, but do we know for sure purigen doesn't do this? We use it in small quantities, so maybe see a negligible effect?
Has anyone tried regeneration of purigen with salt? Just because seachem says use bleach, doesn't mean salt won't work.
I'm betting one of these resins is purigen. Just have to find which one.
Interestingly enough Brightwell Aquatics version of purigen is a salt regeneration product.
http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/organitr.php
I will be changing my purigen today, I'll try a salt bath and post the results.

BTW so glad both this and the matrix thread can stay friendly while expressing different opinions. Hate it when threads degenerate to mud slinging.


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## flynruff

I store my spare purigen in a small pot and distilled water.
pH of water going in is 7.6, after a day or so the pH drops. This picture is after 28 days of storage.
Is this the water softening effect? Softening the water so much it cannot maintain a pH level.
There are a couple issues about pH crashes with purigen you can find with a Google search.










Either way I love the stuff, and would never stop using it.......unless there's a cheaper way [emoji6]


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## Lonestarbandit

I believe the A860/TA213D is the purigen. There are many other formations A850/A840 etc that perform different tasks and are of a different composition.
It's important to remember this sort of product surely did come from the water treatment industry before being rebranded as magic in a bag by Seachem.
So many people want to believe that Seachem themselves are miracle workers rather than search out how to get the same results on your own by doing your own research and procurment outside of the normal aquarium supply lines.
It's been said many times of you see it in a aquarium store the price has automatically quadrupled.
There is much money to be made in people's dependencies on established names.
I only seek to provide we the few hard core hobbiests the alternative and satisfaction of keeping some cash in our pockets.
And yes I welcome a lively discussion on the subject.


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## Lonestarbandit

flynruff said:


> I just Google searched for "organics removal resin".
> I agree that many of these are used as water softeners, but do we know for sure purigen doesn't do this? We use it in small quantities, so maybe see a negligible effect?
> Has anyone tried regeneration of purigen with salt? Just because seachem says use bleach, doesn't mean salt won't work.
> I'm betting one of these resins is purigen. Just have to find which one.
> Interestingly enough Brightwell Aquatics version of purigen is a salt regeneration product.
> http://brightwellaquatics.com/products/organitr.php
> I will be changing my purigen today, I'll try a salt bath and post the results.
> 
> BTW so glad both this and the matrix thread can stay friendly while expressing different opinions. Hate it when threads degenerate to mud slinging.


I'm going to guess without the chlorine the beads color will remain stained though it may be effectively recharged by salt? Purely a guess.
That Organit sounds an awful lot like Purigen doesn't it. Except the 250 regen claim. Purigen states around 10 recharges somewhere.
But funny thing I have 2 packets with over 17 recharges on them and they still seem to work. Wonder if there is some misrepresentation going on to influence repeat sales?

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## Vidikron

So has anyone tried one of these resins in their aquarium yet? I'd love to find a cheaper alternative to Purigen, but who is going to try it first?


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## Lonestarbandit

You are lol. Everyone is always waiting on someone else lol I already mythbusted the Matrix ( @Immortal1 did all the testing though) lol
Let us know how it goes?

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## Clinton Parsons

flynruff said:


> I just Google searched for "organics removal resin".
> I agree that many of these are used as water softeners, but do we know for sure purigen doesn't do this? We use it in small quantities, so maybe see a negligible effect?
> Has anyone tried regeneration of purigen with salt? Just because seachem says use bleach, doesn't mean salt won't work.
> I'm betting one of these resins is purigen. Just have to find which one.
> Interestingly enough Brightwell Aquatics version of purigen is a salt regeneration product.
> Brightwell Aquatics - OrganitR
> I will be changing my purigen today, I'll try a salt bath and post the results.
> 
> BTW so glad both this and the matrix thread can stay friendly while expressing different opinions. Hate it when threads degenerate to mud slinging.



That product sucks, just so you know. I tried it. I had to try regenerating it four times with brine and it was still medium brown after all of that. I put a little in a stock micro solution and did the same with Purigen. After an hour the purigen had only residual color change (if I had rinsed it with water, it probably would have still been white) while the Kent product had absorbed to capacity the iron (and other micros, I'm sure.)


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## Lonestarbandit

Lol then what's the 250 recharges bit about then I wonder.
Must have a completely different level of absorbancy and maybe REQUIRES constant regen lol I'm clueless I'm not a salt guy.

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## Clinton Parsons

I am not sure. I followed the instructions, used hot water... Supposed to work for fresh and salt. 

If you are going to use it and toss it and aren't dosing fertilizers it would be good. It became very dark very fast compared to purigen. But it was all my iron I was doing.


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## Leeatl

ichy said:


> please don't take this as an argument, I'm just trying to get as knowledgeable on this stuff as possible.
> 
> But why do you say #4 disqualifies it as doing the same as Purigen?


I'm not I was just pointing out to Lonestarbandit the softening effects....lol


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## flynruff

I wonder if the residual brown color on organitr is due to no bleach.
If I read the science correctly, it is the sodium ions that "clean" the organics off the beads.
By adding hypochlorite to the sodium we get the bleaching effect. Even seachem say purigen may not return to its original color.

Interesting thoughts in this thread on an organics reactor.
We should ask him what commercial resins he uses.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...ant-club/121002-organics-removal-reactor.html


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## Leeatl

flynruff said:


> I wonder if the residual brown color on organitr is due to no bleach.
> If I read the science correctly, it is the sodium ions that "clean" the organics off the beads.
> By adding hypochlorite to the sodium we get the bleaching effect. Even seachem say purigen may not return to its original color.
> 
> Interesting thoughts in this thread on an organics reactor.
> We should ask him what commercial resins he uses.
> 
> Organics removal reactor - Dallas Ft Worth Aquatic Plant Club - Aquatic Plant Central


Seems as though , by the link above , that someone has tried and is using these resins . Just have to regen with sodium . Now my main question is what is different about Purigen that bleach can be used to regen ?


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## Lonestarbandit

Who said have to regen with sodium? Is it possible it could be recharged with bleach?
Or is that a different product altogether from A860.

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## Lonestarbandit

This is also interesting sounds somewhat familiar. But salt again.
We must find the bleach recharger lol
Unless sechem is intentinally letting us slowly ruin the product by using bleach this providing built in demand?









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## Leeatl

Lonestarbandit said:


> Who said have to regen with sodium? Is it possible it could be recharged with bleach?
> Or is that a different product altogether from A860.
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


I am just going by what I am reading and my experience with water softeners . The resin in those can not be subjected to the chlorine in tap water so the water must pass through a carbon filter before the resin . And I would not be surprised if Seachem was saying to use bleach to get Purigen cleaner and to make it fail sooner . That would explain the difference in the max regen cycles on Purigen and the ones we are discussing .


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## Lonestarbandit

250 vs say 10-12 is quite a discrepancy....

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## Lonestarbandit

I have found this quite helpful.
I will post full text and link.
Think this can help us a bit.

http://www.wwdmag.com/just-facts-knowing-strong-base-anion-resin-types

Just the Facts: Knowing Strong Base Anion Resin Types

Carl J. Galletti

Thu, 2000-12-28 09:17

[http://www][http://www]

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Deciding which type of strong base anion (SBA) resin to use in a deioinizing application does not have to be a guessing game. In fact, selecting the correct SBA resin for your application can be simple as long as you know the facts about the resin and the circumstances in which they will be employed. The following article reviews chemical property differences that exist in SBA resin and how these differences affect resin performance.

Ion Exchange Resin Chemistry
In the hydroxide form, SBA resins are strongly basic enough to remove both strong acids such as hydrochloric and sulfuric acids and weak acids such as silicic and carbonic acids from the effluent of a hydrogen form strong acid cation (SAC) exchanger where neutral salts are converted to corresponding acids. In other words, SBA resins remove all anionic contaminants present. As a comparison, weak base anion resins (WBA) remove only contaminants such as sulfate and chloride, which are strong acids, and will not remove contaminants such as silica and carbon dioxide. This is not necessarily a negative aspect of a WBA resin if the product water need not be free from silica and carbon dioxide. Indeed, this can be a positive aspect of WBA resin given that WBA resins typically have greater capacities for mineral acids and higher regeneration efficiencies than SBA resins. (See Equation 1.)

Resin Manufacturing and Functionalization
Ion exchange resins are copolymers typically made of styrene and divinyl benzene (DVB), which have a tremendous surface area. The styrene acts as the backbone or chain and the DVB act as the crosslinker. The porous beads that form are referred to as "gel-type" resin. Ion exchange sites are not only on the surface of the bead but throughout the bead. The amount of DVB crosslinker affects the resin’s physical strength, resistance to temperature and oxidative degradation, selectivity and capacity. Cation and anion resins are made similarly with the major difference being the functionalization of the copolymer.

SAC resins are fuctionalized with sulfuric acid producing a sulfonic functional group (-SO3–H+). The stationary functional group is the sulfonate group (-SO3–) and the mobile exchangeable cation is hydrogen (H+).

Adding functional groups to SBA resins involves two steps: chloromethylation followed by amination. The resulting stationary functional group is a quaternary ammonium group and the mobile exchangeable anion is hydroxide (OH–). There are two chemicals that generally are used for the amination step, each producing a different type of SBA resin with different chemical properties. Type I SBA resins are aminated with trimethylamine. Type II SBA resins, developed after the SBA Type I, are aminated with dimethyl-ethanolamine. (See Equation 2.)

Acrylic can be used with DVB instead of styrene to produce acrylic SBA resins (they are functionalized differently from styrenic resins). In fact, the functional group is part of the polymer backbone.

We commonly have the three types of SBA resins in our arsenal to choose from when designing an ion exchanger: Type I, Type II and acrylic. They differ in chemical make up and, therefore, behave differently. No single SBA resin is the best choice for every application. Each type has its advantages and disadvantages according to the circumstances of the application.

Organics Removal/Throw
Type I SBA resins provide lower TOC effluents than Type II and acrylic SBA resins for a number of reasons. First, Type I resins remove natural organic matter (NOM) better than acrylics and Type II resins because they are more strongly basic. NOMs tend to be weakly ionized; therefore, the most strongly basic resin removes them best. Second, Type I resins are the most chemically stable of the three types. Hence, TOC throw from a Type I is less than Type II and acrylics. Also, the amines that are thrown from Type I resins due to degradation are cationic and can be removed by a mixed bed or cation polisher. In contrast, the degradation products from Type II resins are not ionized. In ultrapure applications where TOC is a concern (for example, in a semiconductor manufacturing mixed-bed polisher), Type I resins are your best choice.

Organic Fouling
Type II and acrylic SBA resins resist organic fouling by NOMs better than Type I SBA resins because Type II and acrylics are less basic. In other words, organics slip through Type II and acrylic SBA resins during the service cycle. Actually, as Type II resins age, they become more resistant to organic fouling because their strong base sites are converted to weak base sites. The nature of the acrylic backbone allows for reversible removal of organic matter. For the same reason, Type Is are preferred for organics removal because they are prone to organic fouling. Type Is are more strongly basic than acrylics and Type II resins; therefore, Type I resins load more organics during service and are not efficiently removed during regeneration.

Capacity
In general, Type II and acrylic SBA resins have better regeneration efficiencies and higher operating capacities than Type I SBA resins due to the nature of their functional groups. This is particularly true when the combined concentration of CO2 and silica in the feed water is less than 25 percent of the total anion concentration. Type I and Type II SBA resins age differently. For instance, Type II resins, as they age, have a higher percentage of strong base sites being converted to weak base sites than in Type I SBA resins. The different manner in which SBA resins age, in itself, is not necessarily good or bad.
It will depend on the feed water, effluent requirements and end-point. (See Charts 1 and 2.)

Odor Considerations
Anion resins have a distinct odor, especially SBA resins in the hydroxide form. High pH increases the degradation of SBA resins and, therefore, increases its odor. The degradation product responsible for the odor off of a Type I SBA resin is amine and has a strong fishy smell. The amine is cationic; therefore, it can be removed by cation resin. The degradation products of Type II SBA resins are alcohols and aldehydes and have less objectionable odors than Type I resins. SBA resins throw fewer odors in mixed beds because of lower pH. In the case of mixed beds that use Type I resin, the cation resin also removes the amine.

Temperature Limits
High temperature degrades the functional groups of all SBA resins. Type I resins are the most thermally stable followed by Type II with acrylics being the least temperature resistant. All the SBA resins are more susceptible to temperature degradation in the hydroxide form than in the chloride form. (See Table 1.)

Silica Removal
In applications demanding the lowest silica levels over many regeneration cycles, regeneration temperature is extremely important. Silica is not removed from anion resin during regeneration in the same manner as ordinary ions. To remove silica from the SBA resin during regeneration, the silica has to de-polymerize, solubilize, ionize and elute. The first two steps are relatively slow and require energy. As a result, longer contact time and elevated temperature during regeneration help to remove silica from resin.

When achieving low silica leakages is the goal, Type I SBA resins are the resin of choice because they can be regenerated at the higher temperatures necessary to elute silica from resin.

The ion exchange application and the resin’s properties determine the type of SBA resin selected. (General properties are listed in Table 2.)

About the Author
Carl J. Galletti is the Midwest technical sales manager for ResinTech, a supplier of ion exchange resins and granulated activated carbon. He has worked within the chemical separation technology field for eleven years while at DuPont’s Biotechnology Division and ResinTech. Since joining ResinTech in 1992, Mr. Galletti has written articles on ion exchange and granulated activated carbon applications.



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## Leeatl

Thanks Lonestarbandit ...dinner time now , but I will read that tonight . Between this and the Matrix experiment I am starting to have doubts about Seachem as a trusted company...lol


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## Lonestarbandit

I also remember Seachem saying some amine based water conditioners / declorinators ruin purigen? So we should be able to eliminate some on that basis? @Immortal1 @thedood

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## Lonestarbandit

Leeatl said:


> Thanks Lonestarbandit ...dinner time now , but I will read that tonight . Between this and the Matrix experiment I am starting to have doubts about Seachem as a trusted company...lol


Oh I trust the quality of their goods completely. Just don't like the prices.

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## thedood

Lonestarbandit said:


> I also remember Seachem saying some amine based water conditioners / declorinators ruin purigen? So we should be able to eliminate some on that basis? @*Immortal1* @*thedood*
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


My understanding is they dont actually ruin the purigen. The amines cause the purigen to emit toxins because of the way the amines bind to the bleach during regen. I have read that this is only an issue during the second phase of regeneration and amine based products are used for that phase rather than prime.


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## Leeatl

Lonestarbandit said:


> Oh I trust the quality of their goods completely. Just don't like the prices.
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


Oh I trust their quality , just wondering about what they are telling us...lol


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## flynruff

I love everything I've ever used by seachem. That's the problem though, their stuff is good and they know it so can charge a premium.


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## Lonestarbandit

Leeatl said:


> Oh I trust their quality , just wondering about what they are telling us...lol


They are delibrately obfuscating any potential information to protect their bottom line that is for sure.
And they appear on serveral posts from others interactions to be deliberately misleading with information given.
I suppose from a business perspective I can understand that.
But from a hobbyist standpoint I rebel! 

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## Lonestarbandit

thedood said:


> My understanding is they dont actually ruin the purigen. The amines cause the purigen to emit toxins because of the way the amines bind to the bleach during regen. I have read that this is only an issue during the second phase of regeneration and amine based products are used for that phase rather than prime.


That is true I think. That does sound like what I read somewhere. I didn't remember the specifics.

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## theatermusic87

I did a quick google search and while chemistry was never even close to my best subject in school, bleach is a diluted solution of sodium hypochlorite. I would assume seachem advertises using bleach to recharge with because it's a commonly available sodium based product of known strength. This makes it easier on the hobbyist not having to make stock solutions every time to recharge, or selling a recharge kit, etc. the lack of rechargeablity may also tie into this because of the strength (or lack thereof) of bleach versus some other sodium solution.


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## ichy

PHP:







theatermusic87 said:


> I did a quick google search and while chemistry was never even close to my best subject in school, bleach is a diluted solution of sodium hypochlorite. I would assume seachem advertises using bleach to recharge with because it's a commonly available sodium based product of known strength. This makes it easier on the hobbyist not having to make stock solutions every time to recharge, or selling a recharge kit, etc. the lack of rechargeablity may also tie into this because of the strength (or lack thereof) of bleach versus some other sodium solution.


Hey think of this...the reason you recharge with bleach because it is easy to neutralize with a dechlorinator like.....wait for it...PRIME!!

I wonder if you could use Lye?


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## Clinton Parsons

theatermusic87 said:


> I did a quick google search and while chemistry was never even close to my best subject in school, bleach is a diluted solution of sodium hypochlorite. I would assume seachem advertises using bleach to recharge with because it's a commonly available sodium based product of known strength. This makes it easier on the hobbyist not having to make stock solutions every time to recharge, or selling a recharge kit, etc. the lack of rechargeablity may also tie into this because of the strength (or lack thereof) of bleach versus some other sodium solution.



No, the bleach oxidizes the organics by breaking carbon bonds, thus turning them into other smaller molecules that can be dissolved and rinsed away. Think of it as burning them off. The resins that use sodium are working by exchanging sodium ions for the organic molecules in a "trade." You can just use table salt and water for those. Once you put those types back into your filter, they begin releasing sodium ions into your tank water and "trading" them for organic molecules again. Polymers like purigen work by adsorption, where the organic molecules adhere to the outside of the beads, and since the beads are macroporous they also adhere to the "inside" surface area. Nothing is released into the water in exchange for those molecules.


Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and you could hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing. It reacts endothermically with water, and I don't think it is an oxidizer anyway. There is no reason to use it unless you are trying to regenerate DI resins.


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## Lonestarbandit

Prime or purigen we seem to have strayed into the twilight zone here...
Ah you fixed it makes much more sense now.

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## Lonestarbandit

So given the earlier list posted of types where does that leave us in terms of narrowing down the exact resin product we want.
Does acrylic SBA apply I do not pretend to be an expert here with polymers etc etc

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## crice8

To me it would not really be worth the minimal cost savings since it can be reused so many times. If you were to buy the 500ml of actual purigen for $25 that is about 30 cu inch worth. This actually makes the price comparable to the item in the OP. I would rather pay a few cents more for something that is proven aquarium safe, and has been lab tested by seachem than run into unexpected side affects on any of my setups.


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## Leeatl

crice8 said:


> To me it would not really be worth the minimal cost savings since it can be reused so many times. If you were to buy the 500ml of actual purigen for $25 that is about 30 cu inch worth. This actually makes the price comparable to the item in the OP. I would rather pay a few cents more for something that is proven aquarium safe, and has been lab tested by seachem than run into unexpected side affects on any of my setups.


That and I don't know 10-20 people to split a bag with...lol


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## Lonestarbandit

Course I disagree because I'm an outside the box DIY kind of guy. lol
I enjoy the road less traveled.
Plus I have a lot of tanks so consumables can be stockpiled lol I don't mind.
Per use cost declines I am cool with that.
Idea is just to bring awareness that alternatives are available. 
And come on, who doesn't want to know what the real "Magic" in the bag is.


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## Lonestarbandit

*bump*
Everyone lost interest eh? 
Not even an ounce of curiosity left?


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## Maryland Guppy

I met with my Purolite rep on Friday. Looking @ the A860 resin.
I should know more early next week. Available quantities and pricing.
Last time they sent 4 liters of sample resin to my office.


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## Lonestarbandit

That is beyond awsome my curiosity knows no bounds!

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## spore

Clinton Parsons said:


> No, the bleach oxidizes the organics by breaking carbon bonds, thus turning them into other smaller molecules that can be dissolved and rinsed away. Think of it as burning them off. The resins that use sodium are working by exchanging sodium ions for the organic molecules in a "trade." You can just use table salt and water for those. Once you put those types back into your filter, they begin releasing sodium ions into your tank water and "trading" them for organic molecules again. Polymers like purigen work by adsorption, where the organic molecules adhere to the outside of the beads, and since the beads are macroporous they also adhere to the "inside" surface area. Nothing is released into the water in exchange for those molecules.
> 
> 
> Sodium hydroxide is a strong base and you could hurt yourself if you don't know what you're doing. It reacts endothermically with water, and I don't think it is an oxidizer anyway. There is no reason to use it unless you are trying to regenerate DI resins.


This whole thread has me wondering if perhaps purigen could be regenerated in a slightly longer soak in a KMnO4 solution. It's a little less dangerous to aquatic life than bleach, and can be easily neutralized with household hydrogen peroxide(which can then be easily rinsed out). I am gonna try it.


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## Leeatl

Maryland Guppy said:


> I met with my Purolite rep on Friday. Looking @ the A860 resin.
> I should know more early next week. Available quantities and pricing.
> Last time they sent 4 liters of sample resin to my office.


We will be patiently waiting for the results...lol


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## number1sixerfan

My purigen fouls in no time. I hope this somehow turns out to be a legit solution lol


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## Maryland Guppy

Lonestarbandit said:


> That is beyond awsome my curiosity knows no bounds!


I have no idea how awesome or expensive this is.

They knew I was testing water softener resin and 4 quarts just showed up in a box addressed to me.
For me resin @ work is several cubic yard sacks we lift with a fork truck.
A yard of this stuff will not be affordable.
I believe this resin is bagged by 1/2 or 1 cubic foot.
Seems it is used as an additive with other resins typically regenerated with brine.


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## Lonestarbandit

Any step we can get closer to cracking the purigen question is helpful!
If it proves economically unfeasible so be it. It's about the discovery.
In fact perhaps your contact in the industry knows what the Seachem product actually is?

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## natemcnutty

My thought is that if you actually found it to be exactly Purigen or at least comparable, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for someone here to buy a full yard of the stuff, bag it up, and sell it for a small profit but still be a lot less than what Seachem charges for Purigen...

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk


----------



## flynruff

Check out item# 301877729272 on eBay.
Sounds interestingly similar.


----------



## flynruff

Been doing some more research and found this site.
They offer samples for $50 and have some resins which just remove organics, no water softening (mentioned)

https://resintech.com/


----------



## Lonestarbandit

flynruff said:


> Check out item# 301877729272 on eBay.
> Sounds interestingly similar.


Yes but must not be purigen as its salt recharged.
Unless we are missing the boat and the reason purigen DOESN'T last 250 recharges is the bleach is ruining it.
Then the dechlorination step renders safe......









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## flynruff

I had to go away for a few days, so haven't tried recharging my purigen in salt yet.
I did find this Australian forum that has a purigen alternate and they talk about the salt vs. bleach recharge.
I'm thinking purigen regens fine with salt, just won't go back to its original color. The bleach is probably what reduces the quoted life.
A few months back I left a bag of purigen in the bleach solution for 3 days by mistake. When I pulled it out, a significant amount of the purigen had essentially dissolved into a slime. I think this shows the bleach recharge weakens the beads.

Macropore vs purigen


----------



## Lonestarbandit

I am wondering the same thing. Planned disintegration requiring new purchase......

"Macropore 350ml [mp350] - $20.00 : G.& K. Lloyd-Jones Aquarium & Pet Products Manufacturing
Macro-pore our newest product is a synthetic absorbent polymer that removes impurities from water and polishes it to a crystal clear clarity. It is active on Quartinary Ammonia groups like nitrates. It can be recharged with salt for freshwater use until it darkens to a point where Chlorine must be used to re-whiten, every three or four recharges. 
1 litre of Macro-pore will treat 5000 litres"..................

So clearly the salt regen CAN be recharged with bleach and it DOES shorten the life......
very sneaky Seachem, very sneaky......

Now I am wondering if to extend our Seachem Purigen should and could be salt regenerated for a longer lifespan......

Also if that A860 is the same thing.

Found this as well Think someone mentioned it before.
But recharge info....
http://www.continuumaquatics.com/freshwater_fil/basis-powercleanse_xl.php


----------



## spore

Just want to throw this out there, and play the devil's advocate since there seems to be an overtone that Seachem is somehow being sneaky in these "without Seachem" threads.

I seriously doubt that Seachem specifically decided to use bleach on their products because it shortens the life of the product. It is extremely effective at returning purigen to nearly it's original state, and it happens a lot faster and actually cleans the resin surface of organics which a brine solution will NOT do. Furthermore, let's assume purigen can be recharged with brine - this would act on ion exchange properties in the resin, replacing those with sodium ions in a trade. As previously stated elsewhere in this thread, even with thorough rinsing, when the resin re-adsorbs it's targeted substances it releases those sodium ions back into the water column. This isn't exactly the greatest thing for a freshwater planted tank. I don't think this is how purigen works, and I personally would prefer to use an oxidizer than salt - hence why I suggested possibly using a less aggressive oxidizer. 

I am all for cutting out the middle man and going full on DIY - However remember, Seachem is in the business of making money, providing products which make our lives easier. You probably wouldn't have even known that such products existed, had they not laid out the funds for research, testing, and marketing. There may be some benefit to being evasive in revealing the source of parts of your product when you've invested funds for these things, but overall they are pretty forthcoming (a hell of a lot more than ADA, that's for sure). They also stand behind their products, which is not something you could probably say about a big bag of 'similar' resin that you order from some dude/dudette in China.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

There is an overtone because it has been my experience they are much less than forthcoming. 
Your experience may vary.
I have never faulted their products as being of poor quality merely overpriced.
If you prefer Seachem pay their prices.
I like the alternatives. 

That said I am still confused by some compareable resins apparently able to be regenerated by bleach and sodium but with warnings it shortens its life.
This is where I wonder if one could regenerate purigen with brine....not that it would be wise but it would get some insight into the true composition of purigen.
It is entirely possible that they are the same but as you stated releasing sodium into our frshwater isn't a good plan and perhaps despite the life shortening of the beads that's why bleach is used.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## spore

Just sent Seachem an email regarding some of the things being discussed and got a response like 5 minutes later:

Question:


> Can Purigen be regenerated with brine? This seems unlikely as it appears that Purigen's ability to adsorb certain organics is not through any type of ion exchange mechanism. Furthermore, are there less aggressive oxidizers, say potassium permaganate, that could be used to clean the organics from Purigen, without the danger of using chlorine bleach?


And their response(personal info clipped out from the top):



> To answer your questions: No Purigen cannot be regenerated using a brine solution or any other chemical compound such as potassium permanganate. The recommended bleach:water solution at a specific listed ratio is the only way to successfully regenerate Purigen. The composition of the Purigen is also not degraded by the solution of bleach:water recommended in the regeneration instructions and this is the safest method for full regeneration without harming tank inhabitants.
> 
> I hope this helps. Have a nice day!
> 
> Product Support 102086


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Yet other manufacturers state bleach may be used but degrades the product.
Either the Sechem product is indeed made of magical rainbow farts or they are being less than truthful?
No other possible way to regenerate...
Wish I had some contacts in the water treatment field.....

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## spore

Aluminum hats aside, do you think it might be possible that Seachem's resin is proprietary?
Companies do occasionally innovate...


----------



## Lonestarbandit

It certainly is possible.
However they give that impression on all their products and so far that has turned out not to be the case.
I find it unlikely here as well.
They are master marketers that's for sure.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Leeatl

Lonestarbandit said:


> Yet other manufacturers state bleach may be used but degrades the product.
> Either the Sechem product is indeed made of magical rainbow farts or they are being less than truthful?
> No other possible way to regenerate...
> Wish I had some contacts in the water treatment field.....
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


He said rainbow farts....hehe , hehe , hehe


----------



## flynruff

Well here's a link with some good info from a seachem rep about purigen.
It seems it is a little different than the ion exchange resins.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8177892

Given there are so many other aquarium resins that are regenerable by brine, I don't think sodium ions going into the water column is that big of a deal.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Very good point.
Also very good link.
It seemed A860 was preferential to organics wasn't it....but then I think that was an ion-exchange resin....
Hmmm.

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## Slim64684

Lonestarbandit said:


> Yet other manufacturers state bleach may be used but degrades the product.
> Either the Sechem product is indeed made of magical rainbow farts or they are being less than truthful?
> No other possible way to regenerate...
> Wish I had some contacts in the water treatment field.....
> 
> Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


I work for the local water/sewer utility, just one the dirty side. However one of the guys I work with used to work at the water filtration Plant and his wife still does. I could possibly get some answers to specific questions. I tend to go by every couple weeks to get an updated water report.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

No word yet on the A860.
More when I get some info.


----------



## IUnknown

Here is a good read on the subject:
Organics removal reactor - Dallas Ft Worth Aquatic Plant Club - Aquatic Plant Central


----------



## MChambers

*Brightwell*



flynruff said:


> Check out item# 301877729272 on eBay.
> Sounds interestingly similar.


Sounds more like the Brightwell NitratR, which is regenerated using salt.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Looks like 4 liters of A860 are coming my way!
Seems like all samples come by the gallon.

Holding by breath waiting for a package to arrive.


----------



## ichy

Two things, 
The response from seachem sounds a little like cya speak. No way would they ever say anything other than what's on the label.

Secondly, the amount of sodium released by ion exchange from a bag of purigen regeneration would be so minuscule!


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Maryland Guppy said:


> Looks like 4 liters of A860 are coming my way!
> Seems like all samples come by the gallon.
> 
> Holding by breath waiting for a package to arrive.


Great!!!! This will be a lot of fun! I look forward to breaking out my tinfoil hat in celebration!
:wink2:


----------



## Maryland Guppy

More investigation into cleaning resin.
I found a Purolite document that explains several ways to sanitize fouled resin.
Chlorine (bleach) is one of the methods described.
Problem is that excessive chlorine will in time damage beads.
They can turn to mush or lead to excessive broken beads.
This explains the shortened life by using chlorine.

Just thought to share.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

That is a excellent find guppy!
Which means we probably have the correct answer...hopefully.

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## Maryland Guppy

Time will tell. I believe I will see my rep on Tuesday.
I will post as I know more.

Bad thing is I an receiving 4-1 liter samples.
It will need regeneration before first use.
I'll use brine and sodium hydroxide for my first sample regen.
I still do not know the cost or the available volumes.

Out of my realm here, I am only familiar with water softener resins.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Still. Look forward to your findings.
Remember....amateurs built the ark and professionals built the titanic.....

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy

Through UPS tracking I know my rep has the resin.
Not sure when I will see him, he is about 10 miles away though.
Hopefully before the week's end I'll have it in hand.
7 point something pounds of it.

At least the Ark made the voyage. :laugh2:


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Looks like I will receive on Tuesday next week.
It looks a lot like Purigen!
Hope it smells like Purigen???


----------



## thedood

Maryland Guppy said:


> Hope it smells like Purigen???


Thats the first time I have ever heard that.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Purigen has a very distinct smell I have noticed.
Unlike polystyrene resins that don't offer much scent.


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## Immortal1

Guess the next question is how does it taste? Just kidding! Funny you mention that @Maryland Guppy, when ever I open an older bottle of Prime I recognize the odor immediately. Guess it's something you don't forget.


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## Lonestarbandit

Yes yes he must eat some to be sure lol

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## Maryland Guppy

I'll be sure to taste it first.
Then spit little pieces about. :laugh2:

I have enjoyed reading the matrix thread here also.
Was a tank with lava rock media ever considered as a comparison???
I only ask because I use lava rock exclusively in many tanks.

An older bottle of Prime and a newer bottle of Prime taste the same!


----------



## Lonestarbandit

He did not but pumice far outperforms lava rock.
However pumice performs far beyond what we ever need in typical quantity we use that lava rock in average amounts is probably decent as well.
As for tasting prime I shall take your word for it. I use safe exclusively now and it smells terrible in powder concentrate form.
I have no desire to taste it lol


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## Immortal1

Was wondering if Safe had an odor to it - now I know. 
Should help you differentiate it from normal table salt, LOL


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Or, for our amusment you could taste both of them and tell the difference for me [emoji33] 

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## Lonestarbandit

Immortal1 said:


> Was wondering if Safe had an odor to it - now I know.
> Should help you differentiate it from normal table salt, LOL


It smells a lot like powdered sulfur.>


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Tomorrow is resin D-Day.
I feel as though I have been waiting a month of Sundays.


----------



## Clinton Parsons

This is side-related but does anyone know of a larger replacement of "The Bag" to use with Purigen? Seachem bags are small. 

Also, is anyone aware of a bleach brand that doesn't have the extra surfactants in it that makes it slippery and take forever to rinse off? DA sells bleach without surfactants and it's much easier to work with. I would feel stupid for paying that much for imported bleach.


are amino acids, pyroligneous acids and humic/fulvic acids affected by Purigen since they are "organic acids"? I have often wondered why I'm adding ADA Green Bacter, Green Gain, Seachem Envy etc. if the purigen is going to absorb it all, anyway.


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## Maryland Guppy

Clinton Parsons said:


> This is side-related but does anyone know of a larger replacement of "The Bag" to use with Purigen? Seachem bags are small.
> 
> Also, is anyone aware of a bleach brand that doesn't have the extra surfactants in it that makes it slippery and take forever to rinse off? DA sells bleach without surfactants and it's much easier to work with. I would feel stupid for paying that much for imported bleach.
> 
> 
> are amino acids, pyroligneous acids and humic/fulvic acids affected by Purigen since they are "organic acids"? I have often wondered why I'm adding ADA Green Bacter, Green Gain, Seachem Envy etc. if the purigen is going to absorb it all, anyway.


Anything 180 micron or smaller will hold Purigen.
Some double bag it with a larger mesh.
Know of no other reliable bags or socks to hold it.

Dollar store brand bleaches usually have no scent or anti-splash additives.
Ammonia is also available @ dollar store locations for cycling one's tank.
I only do one rinse and then one capful of Prime to finish Purigen regeneration.

I am not familiar with the products you are adding.
Only weigh out standard compounds for dosing.
Maybe someone else can help with those.
Never had Purigen remove any compounds that have been added to the aquarium.

Where are you located? This would help for recommendations.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Resin is here.

It does not have the odor Purigen has.
Beads seem to be somewhat smaller in size too.

Step one I am regenerating with brine and NaOH this evening.
Also testing a softener resin during this trial unrelated to the A860.
Need to also test "The Bag" make sure it cannot escape the 180 micron.

Left is A860, right is regenerated Purigen.









Regenerating now with brine.
Brine was 1 gallon of 90 degree water and 16oz of softener salt.
Worked well all salt did not dissolve, good estimate!
Regenerating in a 16oz cup, 100ml of resin and 275ml of brine.
Using air stone for 15 minutes to cycle all resin around for contact.


----------



## Immortal1

Interesting that the beads could be smaller - the Purigen beads are pretty darn small! Will be following


----------



## Maryland Guppy

8-300ml rinses performed on the cup.
Stirred vigorously, settle for 30 seconds, pour off the top without dumping resin.
TDS reached the same as Prime rinse water.
I'll call it done.

Testing softener resin now and getting ready to prepare "The Bag"

As a test I will try a regeneration on an A860 sample with bleach.

Got 100ml testing in "The Bag"


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Resin did not escape "The Bag".
Not the pearly white color as it was yesterday.
In a tank with tannin and small amount of loose plant matter.
It is working and didn't kill anything. It is NSF approved so no worries.
Update again in a few days.


----------



## Pantokrator

Am I the only one who does not see any pictures in post #100 and #102?


----------



## Vidikron

​


Pantokrator said:


> Am I the only one who does not see any pictures in post #100 and #102?


No. I was never able to see any pictures either.


----------



## Leeatl

I could see them when they were first posted , but not now..????


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## Lonestarbandit

I can't see a thing. Probably the way he posted them.
Smaller beads eh?
So it would seem NOT the exact match then.
However if it is functionally the same ..... we shall see!


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Re-linked the pics to the same link.
Are they visible???

Resin update:
Getting darker each day.
As a test I will split the resin sample into 50ml each.
Regenerate one with brine and one with bleach.
If I trash it so be it, we are testing right?


----------



## Leeatl

Nope still no pics .


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Another attempt bead size with link.
https://goo.gl/photos/hizg4BVZx6hnZ56i7


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## Immortal1

Got the pic. Interesting comparison. Overall the non Purigen is smaller, but, they both appear to be a combination of small and larger beads.
Obviously different colors - thoughts on how well it will work?


----------



## Pantokrator

*Still no pics*

*Still no pics visible* (see the attachment). Please, can you upload the pictures to another host, or publish the links to the host server? I tried to view the thread in Firefox, Edge, IE, Opera ... but the same result = no pics. It seems like your recent host is blocking picture linking (stealing bandwidth).


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Google has turned into a major PITFA, sorry.

Bead comparison








new in tank








48 hours








Resin is absorbing TOC and getting darker.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Man that looks nearly the same to me only color is different.
Could be how Seachem claims its purpose made. 
Like the acid washing pumice then can state it isn't just pumice.
Very exciting! Look forward to the regen experiments once it's dark enough.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


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## Maryland Guppy

One week into the 100ml.
Pulled and emptied "The Bag" this evening.

It is not black but very brown for sure.








I will split this into 2 - 50ml portions.
Half with brine and the other half will get bleach.


----------



## Immortal1

Nice to see another experiment going 
I have a purigen bag in my 3rd tank - just noticed it is at least as brown as the right side pic above. (guess I better do something about that, lol)

Will be interesting to see what colors you get after regen.

I really should look back thru previous posts but I am lazy - did you taste it? LMAO (post 90 / 91)


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Experiments are good, keeps us sharp in the mind.

I am preparing a brine solution now and getting ready to divide the resin in half for the regeneration test.

The 75 gallon tank the resin has been in normally has the equivalent amount of Purigen. The tank appears the same, looks clear front to back but when viewed from the ends tannin is noticeable. Without any treatment it will look like tea from the front. This does prove that the A860 resin is working. It seems as though it became saturated quicker than Purigen. Same amount of Purigen last 2-3 weeks to get this brown.

More later. I'll post some resin pics after regen.
It is late, I'm into the Corn and tired. It may be tomorrow before pics.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

1st 50ml sample with 50/50 250ml of bleach and water.
Resin instantly turned the color of Purigen and was clean.
Acrylic resin that when new was pearly white turned to an antique white/eggshell color.
Resin also became heavier, when stirred with a plastic rod it settled in a few seconds and I could pour off the top without resin loss.

2nd sample with brine solution was very slow going.
Mixed a gallon of brine and rinsed with 250ml per dose.
Settled very slowly and resin did not become heavier than water in an instant like the other.
Used up the entire gallon of brine and resin was not @ original state.
I became impatient and used about 10ml of bleach.
Instantly clean and pearly white at this point.
I can only assume it would take several gallons of brine to make this right.

Should I make a new sample to test with brine only?
Should I test the clean material back in "The Bag"???


----------



## Lonestarbandit

I wouldn't be so concerned with brine regeneration.
To be fair this is really more about is this comparable to purogen.
So I would think bleach regen is fine to me if it is repeatable.
Also so my hypothesis was correct then about them possibly doing something to the product to alter color to camoflage it's origin and also so they can say it isn't just *blank*
After bleach the clear turned purigen color?
Did I read that correctly?
I also enjoy an occasional sip of the corn lol

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Tonight I will put resin back in the "Bag".
It has all been regenated with bleach ignoring the brine that would take a lot of work.
I will also check resin bead size, possible swelling due to bleach contact.
This will be round 2 when I get home from work!
Now the new resin smells like Purigen after first bleaching.

I have not tasted it yet!


----------



## Immortal1

Lot of good information and testing Maryland guppy! Might I suggest treating bleached product with Prime before taste testing... might yield a little more accurate comparison ;-)


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Perhaps OLD prime if possible I hear that should taste the best!!!
Totally awesome if we found an alternative! Too early to be excited but I am lol. 

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## Maryland Guppy

I better hurry up and test for total chlorine so I can put the A860 back in the "Bag".
Tank is starting to look like a urinal trough with no resin in place.
Malaysian driftwood can be a real PITA.
I boiled this stuff for 2 evenings and I may have been better off doing nothing.

I, to this day, cannot detect a difference in taste, Old Prime vs. New Prime.


----------



## Immortal1

Good to know that prime does not loose it's potency when it gets old.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Regenerated A860 is in the tank now.
Checking bead size compared to Purigen @ the moment.


----------



## flynruff

So far this is sounding good.
Can't wait to see how this works out.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Purigen left, A860 right.
Seems like after 1 regen resin has enlarged to some degree.
The Purigen in pics has about 12-15 regens going on.








The pearly white color still exists in the A860 resin.It only looked more like Purigen in the container I regenerated in.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

No worries my mopani wood leached for months horribly and still does a bit.
And yes all this is looking promising and very exciting.


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## Maryland Guppy

*Observations of A860 vs. Purigen.*
While bleaching the A860 takes on the color of Purigen.
This is BS after rinsing and such it is still pearly white.
Bleach makes such a change in the water color.

Last nights pic of the resin, I let it sit in place and dry.
Purigen never changes color and remains the same.
A860 gets a green hue to it when dry.

Purigen takes 3 weeks in my test tank to need a regen.
A860 lasted 1 week before a regen.
It was getting brown and I was in a hurry to try out the bleach/brine.
Water clarity has appeared the same with either product.
The 2 days with nothing in the tank really showed off the tannin.

Purigen requires some soak time to clean up with bleach.
A860 needs only short time exposure, 30 seconds stirred and done.

A860 today has begun to tarnish in color a bit.
It seems to have caught up with tannin as does the Purigen.

A860 does not smell like Puirgen, I think since I was using/messing with both at the same time it seemed to smell like Purigen.
When only dealing with the A860 after the bleach, no scent.

Regeneration with brine would be crazy for the A860.
Sodium hydroxide may work well, should I test it ???
Probably not since most of us will not have NSF quality NaOH.

*My Thoughts on A860.*
It does work, removes tannin and I'm sure organics, DOC etc...
It would require more frequent cleaning unless the volume is increased.
Remember both are 100ml samples for testing.
Original regeneration for A860 was brine with no NaOH.
I was told initial regeneration with recommended means should be used before putting in service.
It does not kill fish, NSF approved, platties are still in breeding mode.
I believe this resin could sustain more regeneration than Purigen only because the contact time with bleach is very swift.

*The Future*
I'm not sure what do next other than use the product in the tank with all the tannin and possibly add more to the "Bag".

No point in adding to my Hi-tech tank it is crystal clear.
No driftwood tannin to really show a visible difference.

I am debating keeping the glass extra clean on the test tank.
Keeping the visibility high I can judge the water color better.
Then just keep adding to the "Bag" to remove all tannin.

I'm open to ideas, criticism, or a different testing method.


----------



## Immortal1

Great observations! Thanks for taking the time to evaluate. Your thoughts/observations on A860 lasting longer could make it an interesting alternative if the price point is similar.


----------



## Maryland Guppy

Now I'll make an educated guess on "Price Point"

Polystyrene resins are about $160 per cu.ft.
Acrylic resins I am not sure. So we will use $160 for now.
I'll get this quoted in the near future.

1 cu. ft. is about 28.322l
if purchased on evilbay in 20l increments = $1223
if purchased on evilbay in 250ml increments = $2266

I will ask for a quote from my local rep.
The sample I received would be about $244 based on evilbay prices.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Hmm so does the same job but requires cleaning far more often.
So then we may have found an alternative but not the exact replacement yet then.

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----------



## Maryland Guppy

Lonestarbandit said:


> Hmm so does the same job but requires cleaning far more often.


I was in a hurry for the first regen. I could have let it go longer.
Now I am not in as much a hurry to regen on the second try.



Lonestarbandit said:


> So then we may have found an alternative but not the exact replacement yet then.


Upon first site it was not an exact replacement.
Maybe a great alternative though, more testing I guess.

Possibly identical to one of the other packaged resins.
They are many aquarium resins on the market I have not tried.
I won't be buying them all for testing purposes either.
That would be very costly.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Of course not no would expected you to. I'm still quite intrigued by this A860.
Looking forward to future observations!
After all we have learned it can indeed be regen with bleach for one!


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----------



## ichy

hmmmmmm I'm ready to setup a Purigen reactor, after reading the entire thread again....may just go with Purigen.
I really dont want to clean the reactor weekly! ughh


----------



## Maryland Guppy

ichy said:


> hmmmmmm I'm ready to setup a Purigen reactor, after reading the entire thread again....may just go with Purigen.
> I really dont want to clean the reactor weekly! ughh


Remember I was in a huge hurry to test a regen on this product.
I did not let it get as dark as the Purigen becomes.
1 week just verified it was removing organics and tannin.
I will run the sample in the filter now until it is filthy, knowing that it does work.
I will post about the next regen @ that time.


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Awesome. I just had to buy some more purigen as some of mine was on its last legs.
Someone I won't name at this time, no not me, offered to buy a package of A860 and sell to us at reduced price vs purogen if our results were promising.
Leaving us not having to cough up for the big package alone.
Anyway yes let it get nice and filthy and will be fun to see if it will regen nicely.

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----------



## Maryland Guppy

Lonestarbandit said:


> Someone I won't name at this time, no not me, offered to buy a package of A860 and sell to us at reduced price vs purogen if our results were promising.
> 
> Anyway yes let it get nice and filthy and will be fun to see if it will regen nicely.


Even if I had enough takers I'd buy a cubic foot and split it up if the cost and shipping were good.

When I regen next time I will take a video of the introduction of bleach. Everyone gets to see what I am seeing.
I will wait my usual 3-4 weeks in the "Tannin Tank"


----------



## Lonestarbandit

Sounds good look forward to it!

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----------



## Maryland Guppy

Week 1 update:
A860 still absorbing and uni-formally a light brown color.
Not worth a pic but holding it's own.

Gone for the weekend camping.
Hoping for no problems while I am gone!


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## ichy

here is a weird question for you? Do you think it is heavier than Purigen? It is a factor for using in reactors.
Purigen is barely heavier than water and likes to get into the water column.


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## Lonestarbandit

Another useless observation from me but wonder if A850 is the direct Purigen replacement?
Not that color of beads matter and that aside this seems to do the job as well.
I found this with white beads. 

Purolite A850 Tannin Select Resin (44 lbs/1 Cubic Foot)


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## Maryland Guppy

I think tomorrow is 14 days of A860 in the "Bag"
Tank is as clear if I were using Purigen, still tannin but well caught up.
Regarding water clarity it works as well as Purigen based on my tank with still leaching tannin.
Visually it is very brown now, not near turning black yet.
My estimate of the end of week 3 it should be about blackened.
Remember this is due to this particular 75 gallon tank, my only tank with driftwood.
100ml of product was used and no additions have been made.

Once 3 weeks are complete I will move to 250ml in the "Bag"
I would really like to clear up the water like my tanks without driftwood.
Tanks without driftwood will also get the "Bag" with just 100ml.
I wish to see how this operates in a cleaner/clearer environment.
100ml of Purigen lasts about 8 weeks in my hi-tech, I could let it go longer though.

Summary: I have 4000ml of this stuff as a sample.
It works, I see no reason not to use it.
Amount of possible regeneration's with chlorine/bleach will take a while to determine.

The cost of A850 seems really high to me per cubic foot.
I could be wrong since I purchase other resins in such large quantities.

I am also investigating a NO3 removal resin that will not "dump" when saturated.
More on that in a new future thread when I can get some resin to test.
Most nitrate removal products from LFS's are sketchy.
My wife's guppy breeding tank will be the proving grounds, high NO3 always.


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## Lonestarbandit

Awesome so intial findings are not the exact replacement but effectively a reasonable substitute?

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## Maryland Guppy

At this point a good substitute since I have no $ invested.

How many bleach regenerations can it handle, yet to be discovered.
Waiting on a price for this material, should know early next week.


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## Immortal1

Given the results so far, it will be interesting to see how much cheaper the A850 can be.


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## Maryland Guppy

No prices yet. :frown2:

Since I will be camping and riding my horse throughout the weekend,
tonight will be the official regeneration of A860.

It is by no means black yet, my estimate it would be in 4 weeks.
Will take pics and a video, try to post tonight.
This might be a 20 day test I think.

More to follow.


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## Maryland Guppy

Resin from the "Bag" placed in a container.
This stuff is filthy and stinks.








Moved to a graduated container.
All organic materials seem to cling to the resin.
It is a magnetic type of effect for sure.
Pre-rinsing should have been my first agenda.








In a hurry so I added 20ml of bleach, stirred and rinsed.
Thought a video of this would be spectacular, wrong, very wrong.








4 doses of 20ml (8.25%) bleach was required to reach this state of pearly white.
This whole process of 4 rinses took about 15 minutes.
One shot of bleach did not magically cleanse the resin.
That was my hope for a video, didn't happen like magic.








Got a price today of $200 per cubic foot @ about 44lbs.
Price does not include the shipping though.
Is it worth it, I couldn't say at this time.
Repeated regeneration testing is needed.
I will continue testing and using only A860 in the "Tannin Tank".
Each regen I will post something as to describe the length of cleaning required.

New dirt:
I found a Purolite PDF this evening.
It was a Q&A sheet for resin applications.
Document stated A860 resins should be regenerated every 3 days or extensive fouling can occur.
This most likely explains why brine is not effective when fully saturated media is presented.
Comparison of A850 & A860 was explained also.
Seems water fluctuations across the united States determines prescribed resin.

Relating all of this to Purigen now.
Maybe Purigen is of a different manufacturer or pre-treated with Cl.
Knowing that it will eventually expire and regeneration will decline.
Only agressive chemicals such as Sodium Hydroxide or Sodium Hypochlorite will provide cleansing.
This all adds up to resin degradation for sure.
Cracked beads, soft gelatinous beads etc...

Are all organic scavenging resins basically the same, who knows.
I have no others at my immediate disposal @ this time.
I am thankful for my Purolite rep's ability to provide a sample though.

Questions or comments please!


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## Lonestarbandit

Oh.....wow! That is all particulate organics holy cow!

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## Immortal1

Without actually doing any math, my guess is you could get 20 normal bags of material out of 1 cu.ft. 
That would make it maybe $5 per normal bag amount so cost wise it is doable (assuming the rest of your tests work out). 
That first pic is pretty interesting! Can't remember Purigen ever stinking (but then again, did I ever smell it??)


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## Leeatl

First off thanks for doing the tests . I agree with Immortal1 that more tests need to be done to see if this resin is more economical than Purigen . Need to see if it lasts the same or more times of regen , does it last as long between regens , stuff like that .


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## Lonestarbandit

I'm excited to see what a few recharge cycles does!

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## Maryland Guppy

Here I am almost a week later.
Skeptical about the regeneration and chlorine test showing positive @ 24hours.
Did I use too much 8.25% bleach, I don't know.
Staying on the side of caution and not wanting to kill all livestock.
I rinsed and added a new 250ml of A860 to the "Bag" two days ago.
The tannin tank could wait no longer, it is very clear now.

This resin has an extreme appetite for collecting organics.
That is a plus for sure, but tossing it is not an option, sort of defeats the purpose.

I did not toss the regenerated resin, it is going in a 4 gallon tank for chlorine monitoring.
The first regen was quick like magic and 24 hour test showed no chlorine.
The second regen took 80ml of 8.25% bleach to clean saturated resin.
I rinsed it 3 times and added 1 cap of Prime, same as first regen.
Maybe more rinsing required?

Did I jump the gun, I don't think so, this is part of testing.
Caution must be taken right?
I will be posting about the 4 gallon tank and chlorine content as I go.

More to follow in upcoming days.


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## Vohlk

You probably thought of this already but it might be hard to get a good read on the chlorine content of the 4gal because chlorine offgases from water pretty quick
So a slow leach of it might not show up in any testing

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## Maryland Guppy

Rinsed the resin twice today.
Rinsing is about 1.5 gallons, 6 drops of prime, and stir up the resin in the 4 gallon tank.
1st rinse and 2 hours chlorine was positive.
2nd rinse and 2 hours was negative.
Will test in the morning without additional rinsing.

Chlorine test is a 100mg powder that tests for total chlorine.
Dump in a 25ml sample and any hint of pink denotes chlorine presence.
Rinse 1 was a very light pink, 1 drop of tap turns it dark pink instantly.
The test packet is really a go/no go gauge we use @ work.

With Purigen regeneration I rinse 3 or 4 times and add 1 cap of Prime.
I test for chlorine within the hour, negative test, place it in the "Bag".
Something made me want to test this new resin after 24 hours though.

Am I being overly cautious???


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## Immortal1

I would say your are not being too cautious - methodical comes to mind more.


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## Lonestarbandit

Doesn't seem overly cautious to me.


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## Maryland Guppy

No total chlorine this morning.
One more rinse for S&G and it is ready to swap when the other is filthy.

The 250ml in service now is getting filthy.
Lots of plant matter rolling around too.
Got lazy and have not trimmed water sprite in 3 months.
2 soccer ball sized lumps of sprite the spray bar is just churning around.
Will clean this up over the weekend. Extreme tannin leaching as usual.
This 75 is a good tank to test for sure.


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## Maryland Guppy

@ 15 days into the new 250ml of A860, I had to pull it.
It was filthy and I tried some new regeneration procedures.

1st another attempt @ brine solution, 3 rinses with aeration.
This removed all particulate matter and just left behind dark resin.
Not acceptable since we all overexpose resins anyway.

2nd attempt was a sodium hydroxide solution that was 50% saturated.
Left overnight with aeration and no really good results.
It was cleaner than when I started but it may take a month of Sunday's.

3rd attempt on same batch of resin was 8.25% bleach again.
Two separate rinses with 1 cap full cleaned everything up pearly white.
Limited total contact time with bleach to under two hours.
Rinsed 5 times and 6th rinse with 1 cap full of Prime.
The 1 hour test for total chlorine was zero.
24 hours test showed positive for chlorine.
No more Prime has been added and aeration is provided 24/7 at this point.

Tested @ 48 hours and still some presence of total chlorine.

I have a Purigen regeneration coming up in a few days.
I will monitor total chlorine with Purigen also.
This is something I have never done either.
I dose 1 cap of Prime after 4 rinses and normally call it done.

I have always assumed with Purigen that the one hour total chlorine test was good enough.

I have an army of horny tri-colored platy's in this 75 gallon tank.
Their eventual sale will get me the rainbows I really want.


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## Lonestarbandit

Hmm so it would seem that A860 is not quite the exact model as Purigen? Drat.

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## Maryland Guppy

Positive update here.

Total chlorine test I have been using is BS!
Tested tank water from a water change and it tested positive for total chlorine, NO WAY!
Will have to get a new chlorine test of some sort.

This all means that the new resin is most likely not harboring any chlorine.


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## Lonestarbandit

Yay

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## Nlewis

Let me state that I haven't read this whole thread yet so I'm not sure if you have checked out what I'm about to tell you about or if it's a viable option. I'm and electrician and I work at a computer chip factory. I was walking around the other day and noticed a 100g tub that was full of what looked like purigen. It was located in the UV area where they treat the water used for the tools making the chips, so I was pretty sure it was just like purigen. Googled the part number located on all the 50g drums and it goes back to Mitsubishi Chemicals(linked below). Just thought I share. 

Synthetic Adsorbents | Products | ION EXCHANGE RESINS


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## Maryland Guppy

UPW applications after R/O system.
Most cannot be regenerated.
I would bet that resin is expensive.


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## Maryland Guppy

Time for an update!

This A860 resin works well.
I would venture to say it can clear tannin stained water in record time.
Replaced 250ml in "The Bag" Monday and when I got home Tuesday crystal clear water.
Seems to work better and faster after regeneration.

Did a 30% water change in the 75G Sunday on the "Tannin Tank"
Disposed of water was brown, letting it get to this stage on purpose.

Purigen Comparison:
It seems to work faster.
Almost to quick, will need to change this weekend, although I let the tank get very filthy.
Number of possible regeneration's is yet to be determined.
I have 500ml in service, 250ml waiting for tomorrow.
This will take a while to determine longevity.

So far this is a win for sure.
Didn't kill any fish yet and plants are happy too.

Tannin Tank Description:
Just so you know the environment it is a 75 gallon.
Tri-color platy only tank with 6 nerite snails. 10 adults, fry ? who knows, and 20 <= 1" in size.
Guessing 35-40lb Malaysian driftwood dark and lots of tannin.
Heavily planted, standing room only.
Feeding is once a day minimal, platy's are aquatic swines for sure.
Medium light tank and fert dosed with a modified PPS Pro solution (no KNO3) to maintain 1ppm of PO4 at all times.
Pre-charged SafeTSorb substrate.

The experiment continues:


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## Lonestarbandit

This is marvelous. Another win for logic and common sense over branding then?
Your report sounds rather glowing!

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## Immortal1

Was wondering how this test was going. Liking the results!


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## Maryland Guppy

I am very pleased with results so far.
Just uncomfortable until further testing and additional regeneration's are completed.
To recommend and see someone lose everything would not be so good.

Since the resin is supposed to be regenerated with brine, that raises concern.
Reckon that Purigen is not supposed to be regenerated with bleach either.
Due to over-exposure bleach is the only alternative, brine and NaOH will not clean them.
This eventually degrades the resin preventing effective regeneration.


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## bharada

Great job! Thanks for doing all the hard work testing.

While the Purigen I'm using is over 10 years old it's still in decent structural shape. It does take multiple, consecutive bleach soakings to get it anywhere near the original blond color, but no noticeable signs of cracked or slimy beads.

But I'm all in for finding industrial sources for functional equivalents to our aquarium tools. I've used Turface Pro League, landscape-grade dry ferts (KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4) and now Metricide 14-Day since I've gone away from injected CO2.


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## Maryland Guppy

Been about 2 weeks. Had to change it out this evening, it was black.
Tank has never been clearer than now.

Comparing to Purigen, after an initial regeneration it performs better than Purigen.
Removed resin(250ml) has already been regenerated, used about 1 pint of bleach in 3 doses to get it pearly white again.

I guess this thread will be around for a while.
I'll keep posting as regenerations take place.
Regeneration #5 was tonight.
Quantity is now 150ml, too much in the bag does not give even exposure.

Night All:


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## Maryland Guppy

I have found my first negative for this new resin.
After regeneration and I put the bag in service the water is cloudy.
Last time I really just payed it no mind, but noticed it again tonight.
Now I don't mean cloudy in such a bad way, sort of a very light milky look.
Not worried it lasted less than 48 hours two weeks ago.

More to follow as this experiment continues.


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## Maryland Guppy

I pulled the resin after a month or so.
It was extremely filthy and the normal regen with about 1 pint of bleach.
Now as usual I am waiting to see the water get a bit discolored before I place in the filter.
It is not really getting tannin stained this time.
Maybe I have caught up on the tannin problem?

New problem since the resin is removed is NO3.
NO3 levels have moved up a bit since resin removal.
Since I am not collecting organics they are deteriorating.
This all makes sense so resin will go back in tonight.
Another bit of good proof of new resin benefits.

Tank history is about 35 platies in a 75G.
10 adults and 3 smaller generations.
Normally NO3 is around 15ppm, without resin it moved up to about 30ppm.
I have basically omitted KNO3 from fert dosing since this tank was set up.
I only WC based on TDS never because of NO3 until now.

Still a win with the new resin so far.
Will report back if the cloudiness shows back up.


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## Lonestarbandit

This is awesome 

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## Maryland Guppy

Maryland Guppy said:


> Will report back if the cloudiness shows back up.


Cloudy is back. Slight milky look all through-out the tank.
I think I will have to trash this used batch of A860 and start with new measured amount.
Since trying brine and NaOH to regen and bleach all on the same batch of resin maybe I have done permanent damage to the resin???
Or it has collected something that is released when exposed to organics again???

Safe to assume that people trying to clear up water don't want a 48-72 hour milky phase before it clears up.

This has had no effect on fish, inverts, or water parameters though.

I will start with a new measured amount of 100ml.
Don't need as much quantity now since tannin leaching has subsided.
It will only be regenerated with bleach this time.
I already know the other products won't phase it.

What the hell, it was a test and testing will just take a little more time.
Observation continues!


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## Lonestarbandit

Excellent. Wonderful that whatever it is releasing back is not toxic.

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## green_sheen

I read up about regenerating base resins. Chlorine significantly shortens their life. Various data sheets repeatedly warn to avoid chlorine in the regenerating process. Though nobody seems to know which resin purigen is made from it seems unlikely chlorine is necessary, except for making it white again. Happens I can live with that.

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite (NaOH). This is sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) with chlorine gas bubbled through it. Bleach also contains significant quantities of common salt (roughly equal to the percentage of NaOH) as a result of this commercial production process.

Common salt (sodium chloride) is widely recommended for regenerating many base resins. Sodium hydroxide is specified in data sheets as superior to sodium chloride for regenerating many base resins.

Turns out bleach decomposes to common salt, chlorine and sodium hydroxide in the presence of organic compounds.

See where this is going? Seachem must know bleach chemistry and that sodium chloride and sodium hydroxide are present in large quantities as bleach decomposes.
How convenient that all that excess chlorine needs lots of another seachem product to remove it. Their marketing people must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I simply use a 5% solution of sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) instead of bleach to regenerate purigen.

No chlorine involved. No expensive seachem prime needed. The pH does get extremely high, above 9.5
So a long soak in pH down (phosphoric acid in my case) gets the pH to a more neutral value.

The purigen I regenerated had absorbed a tremendous amount of tannins. These were rapidly released in copious amounts during regeneration in sodium hydroxide.

Water is still crystal clear after regenerating and purigen seems to be doing its job fine.


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## Dman911

I almost wondering if a soak in diluted muratic acid (hydrogen chloride) say 5% solution would work? Any thoughts on this? Sorry I know its an old thread but I do still see some of the poster's active here.

Dan


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## Lonestarbandit

Yes we are still watching though lol

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## Maryland Guppy

green_sheen said:


> I read up about regenerating base resins. Chlorine significantly shortens their life. Various data sheets repeatedly warn to avoid chlorine in the regenerating process. Though nobody seems to know which resin purigen is made from it seems unlikely chlorine is necessary, except for making it white again. Happens I can live with that.
> 
> I simply use a 5% solution of sodium hydroxide (caustic soda) instead of bleach to regenerate purigen.


 @green_sheen I will need to try sodium hydroxide on the Purigen.
I have only used it on the A860 resin.

The change in color is a nice indicator when using bleach though.


To All who have followed:
I discontinued the use of the A860 resin about 3 months back.
Subsequent regenerations provided even more turbidity in the water.
Cloudy and milky for a few days even, all the fish hide behind the driftwood.
As the water clears fish slowly emerge and get back to normal.
Once it started taking almost a week to clear I aborted the mission.

I have a little over 3 liters left.
Reckon I could use it as a one-shot and toss it each time it becomes saturated.

I gave up thoughts of experimenting with an NO3 removal resin.
Why bother since I dose so much nitrates as it is.
About 60 platties in the 70G resin experiment tank and they don't provide enough NO3.


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## Lonestarbandit

That's too bad. I guess this one would be declared a bust then at this point.
Many thanks for all your efforts guppy!

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