# callisto9's 20G high planted tank - low tech



## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well, after my 6.6G Petco, I quickly wanted to get a bigger tank. We have a super small house, so space is at a premium. I finally found about two feet of space and got a tank and stand that fit perfectly. 

This is the tank as of last week:









Tank size: 20G high

Plants: anubias, java fern, amazon sword, crypts (melted, but are coming back), hornwort, brazilian pennywort, anachris (a lot melted), water wisteria, vals

Lighting: One 15W 8000K full spectrum florescent light

Ferts: just some root tabs

Fish and snails: three mystery snails, many ramshorns, seven glowlight tetras. Two guppies will be moved over pretty soon. 

It's been a frustrating road, but I think things are finally starting to turn around. 

I just got some awesome plants today, too, and will be planting them this weekend. 

Thoughts and opinions welcome!


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

Looks great already, I like the composition.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> Looks great already, I like the composition.


Thank you! I think the manzanita helps. I love that stuff. Stupid expensive, but a neat addition to any tank.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

looking good !


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thank you! Been staring at it all day.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Some pics from the last few days:

Side view of the tank:









Magenta apple snail:









Same snail, different angle:









Moved over one guppy (out of two). He's stressed 









Pink ramshorn:









One of my seven glowlight tetras:









Some new plants and my apple snail:









Glowlight tetra and 3rd apple snail:









Full tank shot:


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## orchidman (Dec 15, 2010)

did you get the new plants in?


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

I didn't know what manzanita was, but now I do. You have nice rocks too. And that's besides the plants, things are coming along nicely.


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## iadubber (Jan 23, 2012)

I like the river rocks! 


Sent from my iPad 2 using Tapatalk HD


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> I didn't know what manzanita was, but now I do. You have nice rocks too. And that's besides the plants, things are coming along nicely.


Thanks! I like the rocks, too. I made sure they'd be OK for the tank by doing the vinegar test. 

Still don't know why manzanita is so expensive... if I find a tree around here somewhere... manzanita for all!



orchidman said:


> did you get the new plants in?


I did! They're in there, but hard to see. A few have been uprooted since last night. I have leftovers, too, so yay! Thanks again. 



iadubber said:


> I like the river rocks!


I do, too. I think all the colors adds a nice touch to the aquarium. 

Are you from Iowa? Just looked - Dubuque. I am from the Quad Cities. I am!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Video from an hour ago. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMBd4a7Jq7g

How do you embed a video on here? :confused1:


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

Just watched the video, looks like everyone is happy being in there.


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## JunJunJenn (Aug 1, 2012)

I really like your tank! It reminds me of the life aquatic for some reason. Its sort of magical looking...


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks everyone! All fish and snails are doing well (snails are doing TOO well, I think). I can't wait to get in there this weekend and trim and plant some more stuff!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Did a 3 gallon water change tonight. All inhabitants are doing well. I keep expecting fish deaths, but so far, so good. I had such a horrible start to this whole thing that each time I wake up each morning, I am so stoked everything is still living!

Some pics from tonight:

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmoss ball!









Free ride:









Yummy spirulina pellets from member acitydweller:









And finally, a full tank shot:


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Pics!

Here's the new guppy and the peacock gudgeon:









Peacock gudgeon:









Full tank shot, as of today:


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

MOAR PICS!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

:icon_redf I just saw you have a journal for your new 20g... it's looking so good! Those plants are really going to fill in nicely. :smile:

The gobys are pretty. Do you know if you have a male & female pair?


ps- at this rate of tank expansions, you'll be setting up a 75g by next summer.  which, btw had cost me about the same as this little nano has!


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## sidefunk (Apr 22, 2010)

Great start callisto. Glad you were able to find some space for a tank in the house. Its a great hobby and nice to have a little slice of nature in your home. Enjoy.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks! I DO have a male/female pair with the peacock gudgeons.

Anyone know why fish have so many names for the same fish? They are called peacock gudgeons, peacock gobys, rainbow gudgeons, eyespot sleeper goby...

Trust me, I have NO ROOM for a larger tank. I really had to do some creative moving around to get this one and it's in my bedroom. 

This tank has cost me a fortune. In fact, since I started the hobby only two months ago, I would guess I've spent somewhere in the range of $600. :icon_eek:


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## [email protected] (Dec 13, 2008)

I found a great source for Manzanita... Blooms and Branches. (Google it... I'm at the airport right now). I bought a large, nice selection for $50. I have tons left after scaping my new 75g. I'm sure it's cheaper to buy larger quantities (because of the shipping) but they sell by the piece, or maybe you could order some with a group of people.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Awesome! I'll keep that in mind!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

I really like your placement of everything! The Manazinta DW adds a lot IMO the way it's coming forward from the corner. Gorgeous.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> I really like your placement of everything! The Manazinta DW adds a lot IMO the way it's coming forward from the corner. Gorgeous.


Thank you so much.  I'm now battling some sort of algae (I think). Off to post a new thread!


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## Byakuya (Oct 26, 2011)

mm; I am from Iowa 

Beautiful tank! I am jealous of your gobys! I am looking for a male/female pair to get right now for my tank

My tank @ http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2060943#post2060943


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Byakuya said:


> mm; I am from Iowa
> 
> Beautiful tank! I am jealous of your gobys! I am looking for a male/female pair to get right now for my tank
> 
> My tank @ http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2060943#post2060943


Thank you! Hey, if they ever breed, you can have some fry. 

Going to check out your tank now. Nice to see another Iowan! So few of us on forums...


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Love it!!


callisto9 said:


>


I think the ludwiga and vals would fare better dosing with Brightwell aquatics FlorinFE and FlorinAxis. Cheapest at LNT.com, which has no shipping charges.

The FlorinAxis may help with the algae. For it is a Co2 replacement. It is not as good as Seachem Excel but will not affect the Vals, which are sensitive to Excel. 

What color is the algae? Brown algae is normal for the beginning of a tank.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> Thank you so much.  I'm now battling some sort of algae (I think). Off to post a new thread!


uh-oh...good luck!


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## GMYukonon24s (May 3, 2009)

Nice tank and beautiful fish. I've always wanted peacock gudgeons.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Hilde said:


> Love it!!
> 
> I think the ludwiga and vals would fare better dosing with Brightwell aquatics FlorinFE and FlorinAxis. Cheapest at LNT.com, which has no shipping charges.
> 
> ...


Algae is brown. I am dosing with Flourish Comprehensive, not Excel. 

I will check out the chems you recommended. I'm totally in the dark when it comes to nutrients. It was suggested to me by someone here that I might have a macro deficiency, so that's why I bought the Flourish Comprehensive.


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

Your aquarium really looks nice. I've got some algae now too, it could have sprung up when I was doing a bunch of water changes trying to keep my Gourami alive. It isn't spreading really, I'm keeping an eye on it before I do anything. The snails are getting bigger now though.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> Your aquarium really looks nice. I've got some algae now too, it could have sprung up when I was doing a bunch of water changes trying to keep my Gourami alive. It isn't spreading really, I'm keeping an eye on it before I do anything. The snails are getting bigger now though.


Thanks.  I also got this little guy yesterday. He's in the QT tank.  PetSmart had them on sale, so I had to try...










How is your gourami?


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

I love gouramis! They like to watch u back  

Did u just get the one?

Your tank is looking great


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Yes, just the one. He's so beautiful.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Nice looking gourami!!! Congrats!


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> Thanks.  I also got this little guy yesterday. He's in the QT tank.  PetSmart had them on sale, so I had to try...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Unfortunately he didn't make it. I'm not sure if it was DGD or not, but if it was, it is in my tank now. No one seems to know how long it will linger there, so I won't be getting another one. Too bad, because they are great fish. I don't know what I'm going to replace him with. I hope you have better luck, he'll be watching you as much as you watch him.


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Ahhh that's to bad wannaberooted.  Sorry.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> Unfortunately he didn't make it. I'm not sure if it was DGD or not, but if it was, it is in my tank now. No one seems to know how long it will linger there, so I won't be getting another one. Too bad, because they are great fish. I don't know what I'm going to replace him with. I hope you have better luck, he'll be watching you as much as you watch him.


Awww, I'm sorry to hear it.  How long did you have him? Is DGD contagious to other non-gouramis?


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

I had him four months, not nearly long enough. I don't believe it is contagious to other Gouramis, but except for Honey Gouramis, they all get too big for a 20 gallon in the long run. I'm going to monitor the tank for a while, and if all is well I'll look for a new king of the tank. Thanks for your concern.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> I had him four months, not nearly long enough. I don't believe it is contagious to other Gouramis, but except for Honey Gouramis, they all get too big for a 20 gallon in the long run. I'm going to monitor the tank for a while, and if all is well I'll look for a new king of the tank. Thanks for your concern.


:icon_sad: I'm so sorry. I hope mine fares better. I knew I took a risk by getting him, but once I saw them, I had to try. 

He's swimming all over the tank and he's been so fun to watch.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Loooooong overdue update (thanks Shelly). 

Well, here's what's new:

* Starting picking out all the pink ramshorns. Everyone was right - you'll end up with a ton. I have probably picked out/given away about 100 at this point. I bet there's at least 10+ left in the tank. No more adding ramshorns for me. 

* My first apple snail I purchased - a yellow one - died about a week ok. No idea why. I joined an apple snail forum, but we just couldn't help him. RIP "Epic Snail". Here he is during better times:









* Added two albino cory catfish. I know, I'm supposed to have four or more for schooling purposes, but I resisted and then realized I'm really close to being overstocked. And, after having them for a week, I really don't care for them. They were recommended as "clean up crew" for the floor of my tank, but their mad dash back and forth across the center of the tank ALL DAY LONG kinda disrupts the peacefulness that was my tank. At this point, I'm looking to trade or sell them. 

* Finally moved over the dwarf gourami (named Juicy Fruit) after some QT. He's doing well and is very peaceful. However, it seems it could be him or the cories that nipped the fins of the blue guppy since the guppy's tail was nipped after the gourami and cories were added. 

* One of my PetSmart fancy blue guppies had his tail fin shredded - twice. I have NO idea what fish did it. He's now in the QT tank with the Japan Blue guppies. 

* I have fry! My Japan Blue guppies have produced babies. I have no idea which one popped them out, but fry and two females are now in the fry net in my little 6.6 gallon tank. Problem is, my regular blue guppy is in that tank, too, and I want to keep him away from the females so he doesn't impregnate them and pollute the Japan Blue line. He was in the net before I saw the fry and now he's in the main area, away from the ladies. I was going to treat him with some melafix, but held off once I saw the fry. 

I still have diatoms. :icon_cry: I've cut back on my light from 16 hours to about 8. I am dosing once a week with Flourish Comprehensive, but I don't know if it's doing any good. I'm not so good with this nutrient stuff. 

So, there you have it!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Awwwww, the little fry are so cute! :smile: 

Sorry to hear about your mystery snail. That sucks. Any ideas why s/he died? Speaking of... I've spotted some very teeny tiny regular snails in my tank. They must have hitch hiked in on the dhg I picked up from the Wet Spot in Portland. I didn't rinse the plant. :icon_redf Oh well... 

I know what you mean about the cories being a bit over-active, especially with other fish like gouramis that tend to meander more than dart around. That bugs me too. 

If you do trade them in and still want some kind of ground feeder, check out the amano shrimp. They are supposed to be pretty hardy and have been excellent cleaners in my tank. Khuli loaches are pretty awesome too. They dart back and forth right when the light goes on, but otherwise they just tend to hang out, mostly working at night. They have the cutest faces with short whiskers.

btw, you take a-mazing pictures! How do you get such clear shots? I have troubles with reflections showing. 

Anyhooo... don't feel like you HAVE to update here, but it is cool to see how things are going with your tank. :smile: I could always pop in at the other site too, if that's easier. :smile: (you'll have to let me know the site, though!)


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Too bad about your snail  Congratulations on your fry though! It would be fun to have little cuties swimming about.

I had corydoras before. They were cute little things but I couldn't stand their crazy behavior during water changes so I took them all back to the LFS. They were awful swimming crazily and banging themselves into the glass. When I wasn't doing water changes they were fine, but I perform the PWC every week. Just couldn't stand it.

How is your Gourami doing? Any new pictures?


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have no idea why the mystery snail died. I joined an apple snail forum and we tried an "oxygen treatment", but it made no difference. There's just not much out there about how to treat sick apple snails. The other two are doing really well, so I don't have a clue. 

I was told by the LFS that corys would be a good cleanup crew, but they're almost never on the bottom of the tank. They swim back and forth across the middle of the tank all day. They bump into everything; themselves, the branch, the other fish, the walls, plants... they are so annoying! I am trying to sell or give them away. I guess I could take them back to the LFS...

I gotta tell ya, I'm on a mission now to get all the mini snails out of the tank. They took over SO quickly. 

As for my pics, it's funny you say they're amazing; I don't feel like I take good pics of my stuff. Some of my best pics have come from my iPhone 5 and I have a fancy DSLR! To avoid reflection, close shades on windows and/or take the pics at an angle. Obviously, don't use a flash. I feel like I can never get good pics of the fish 'cause they never sit still!

The other site I joined is Aquarium Advice. It's a good all-around forum, but not as specialized as the Planted Tank. Though there are several members who have planted tanks over there, too. 

The gourmai, Juicy Fruit, is doing great.  He's my star of the tank. I love him! Here's a pic from today:


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Here's my fry! They are much smaller in person than in the video. So cute. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRSk_EExn9Q


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

I prefer the Kuhli Loaches over the Corydoras. They do not dart around the tank spastically or run into things. My corys were the same as yours. They were cute I must admit with the little fat bodies. They seem to me to be the hobbits of the fish world LOL! I do like the Bandit Corydoras. I had them mixed with Julies and a couple others (can't recall at the moment) and the Bandits were quite different than the others. They did not freak out during water changes or run over eachother, decor and other fish. So, if I ever decided to get them again, I would definetely go with Bandits.

I never saw the Kuhli Loaches before the rescape, infact I thought they all died, but after the DW, plants and lake rocks went in, they are never in hiding! It's aawesome!!!! They swim all over the place and it's adorable the way their bodies are diagonal and they swoop up and down. Fascinating. I have 7 of them right now, and plan to up the numbers to 10 or 12. They are great at wriggling in tight places to get food that escaped the other fish.

Juicy Fruit is gorgeous! Glad the star of the tank is doing so well  That's great! Is he sociable with you? I imagine Gouramis to be like Bettas in that respect.

I have the same problem with the ramshorn snails. I made an attempt to irraticate them during the rescape. I don't know if I succeeded or not, but I haven't seen one in 2 weeks now. Promising. I used to see them every morning. I do have a ton of Malaysian Trumpet Snails. And some pond snails. I don't mind the pond snails though. They do not explode in numbers like the Ramshorn did. I never killed the snails. Couldn't do it. So, I put them in the QT when I catch them. I've taken 4 quart sized bags full of Ramshorns to the LFS. In the QT I put a total of 20 in there. I feed them only every 2 weeks by dropping in some blanched cucumber, spinich and lettuce. I also give them some meaty pellets. Not a lot of food ever though. Just enough. And still, their numbers exploded! So, I strongly believe it is a myth that their numbers will only explode if a person is overfeeding the fish. My QT can attest to that!

I had thought about adding a single baby Assissin snail to the big tank. They will also mulitply. Some say not as fast as other snails, but others have said they have tons raqther quickly. Once they eat all the other snails, they die. Gross. That is not what I want to happen in my tank. I also thought about adding 3-4 Yoyo Loaches, but unfortuantely read they will nip my Angels fins. So, no on them!

I will just have to pick the MTS's out as I see them I guess to keep their numbers in check. _Sigh_

I watched you fry video. So cute! What will you do with them? You should see if your LFS will buy them from you or give store credit for fish food or something. That's be cool. Also, you should see if the LFS will trade the corys for something else or store credit. Worth a shot!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

ooo...hope you don't mind the book I wrote ya! :icon_redf


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Awww, the fry are so tiiiiiiny! Nice little home you've made for them with the floaters on top. 

Those corys would bug me too. "bumping into themselves..." lol I don't care for anything that disrupts the rhythm of the tank, or is aggressive. If you've done a lot of business with the fish store that you purchased them from, I'd imagine that they'll most likely give you a full credit for the return. They might just want a separate sample of the tank water to test parameters. Fish not meshing is usually a valid reason for returns. :smile:

Thanks for the tips on pictures. Didn't think about the other lighting in the room... will try fully closing the blinds and turning off the room light and see if that helps with the reflection. btw, I seriously thought part of your job included taking pictures for some reason. Not sure where I got that impression from... ? maybe it's THE AMAZING PHOTOS THAT YOU ALWAYS POST.  eg. nigel in places. If you're taking those with a phone, that is an incredible phone camera... mine is total crap. I blame dropping it numerous times. :icon_redf

I'll check out the other blog. It's always nice just to share in the joy over having fish. (being the rest of my family think I'm nuts!)

ps- Amanda, khuli loaches are one of my favorite fish. If I wasn't trying to grow hc, they'd be in my current tank. :smile:


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

WAIT! I posted a long response to Amanda's post and it's gone!!! NOOOOOO!!!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

bluestems said:


> ps- Amanda, khuli loaches are one of my favorite fish. If I wasn't trying to grow hc, they'd be in my current tank. :smile:


They are awesome! Will you get some when your HC grows in? 



callisto9 said:


> WAIT! I posted a long response to Amanda's post and it's gone!!! NOOOOOO!!!


Oh no! That's terrible! That same thing happened to me tonight when I was posting pics! I had 20 or so and then my daughter bumped me and POOF! Gone! 
I know this is _not_ funny that you lost your post, but I must tell you that again, your cat avatar says "noooooooo" for you when you posted that! I hear the cat LOL!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> They are awesome! Will you get some when your HC grows in?


I'm tempted as I think they'd do better at cleaning in the grassy areas where the cories don't seem to want to go. But, the cories would have to find a new home as there is probably not enough room to have both.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Amandas tank said:


> I prefer the Kuhli Loaches over the Corydoras. They do not dart around the tank spastically or run into things. My corys were the same as yours. They were cute I must admit with the little fat bodies. They seem to me to be the hobbits of the fish world LOL! I do like the Bandit Corydoras. I had them mixed with Julies and a couple others (can't recall at the moment) and the Bandits were quite different than the others. They did not freak out during water changes or run over eachother, decor and other fish. So, if I ever decided to get them again, I would definetely go with Bandits.
> 
> Juicy Fruit is gorgeous! Glad the star of the tank is doing so well  That's great! Is he sociable with you? I imagine Gouramis to be like Bettas in that respect.
> 
> ...


Alright, going to try this again! 

I see that khuli loaches need to be in groups of five or more. *sigh* My bioload can't handle that right now. I am intrigued though! Would they harm my apple snails though? 

The cories are still really annoying me. I want them gone. I have messaged the LFS on Facebook about returning them, but no response yet. 

Juicy Fruit the gourami does seem to have a little interest in me. He comes up to the front of the tank when I approach. I really like him a lot, but wow, I hear such horror stories about gouramis (aggression, illness). 

As for the Japan Blue fry - they are doing great! I have about 9-10 in the fry net and two outside of it (can't catch them). All are doing well. I plan on selling them back to the LFS for store credit as my little 6.6 gallon tank can't hold 20 small adult guppies. 

Thanks for writing!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Awww, the fry are so tiiiiiiny! Nice little home you've made for them with the floaters on top.
> 
> Those corys would bug me too. "bumping into themselves..." lol I don't care for anything that disrupts the rhythm of the tank, or is aggressive. If you've done a lot of business with the fish store that you purchased them from, I'd imagine that they'll most likely give you a full credit for the return. They might just want a separate sample of the tank water to test parameters. Fish not meshing is usually a valid reason for returns. :smile:
> 
> ...


I love watching the guppy fry. So cute. 

I do want to give back the cories... I feel bad, but I really don't like them. I've spent well over $200 with them, so I think they should accommodate. 

I don't do photography professionally, but have always enjoyed taking pictures. Thanks for the compliment on my abilities! I have an iPhone 5 - though most iPhones take excellent pics. Also understanding and knowing how to use the auto-focus helps!


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Kuhli Loaches don't touch snails. They are super peaceful and completely mind their business. They do the best in even larger groups around 8-10. It should be a fish on your list when you get a larger tank down the road. They are fabulous. I love mine now that I see them everyday!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> I love watching the guppy fry. So cute.
> 
> I do want to give back the cories... I feel bad, but I really don't like them. I've spent well over $200 with them, so I think they should accommodate.
> 
> I don't do photography professionally, but have always enjoyed taking pictures. Thanks for the compliment on my abilities! I have an iPhone 5 - though most iPhones take excellent pics. Also understanding and knowing how to use the auto-focus helps!


I know how you feel... it's good we feel committed to our fish, but then sometimes compatibility clashes make everyone in the tank stressed, and more prone to sickness. They'll find a good home, and you'll have a happy tank again! 

Turning the lights in the room helped quite a bit on reducing the reflection. thanks again for the tip!

ps- I'd think you would be fine to add two khuli loaches. I know fish are said to be happier in larger numbers, but imho it seems like that is most true when they are among predators. Safety in numbers, and all. :smile: When they're in a peaceful community tank, I think it's reasonable to keep smaller numbers and still have happy fish. eg, we kept trios of tetras and rasboras in small tanks and they lived to full maturity, without illness majority of the time, and were fat and happy. I've also kept just two khulis together, and they seemed to do well too. 

I believe another issue can be with having two males and one female, where a larger group can make a difference, but with just two it's either a pair, or pals. :smile:


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## Amandas tank (Oct 2, 2012)

Good point about being in a tank with potential predators. Maybe it's not the new scape that's brought the kuhlis out of hiding in my tank but the fact the crazy Puntius Denisonis are gone. They may have been precieved as predators the way they lurked through the plants and picked the substrate? Or actually, a more probable theory is this: the way the Puntius Denisonii were always panicing at the sight or sound of someone moving in the house. That very well may have kept the Kuhli's in hiding because it was a sign of danger.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Update on my tank!

All is well, for the most part. I have another snail that's not doing so well - seems to be going the same route as my first yellow apple snail. I have no idea what to do, nor what the culprit might be. I wonder if the it's Flourish Comprehensive or root tabs. 

I re-homed the albino cory cats. 

I moved over two male Japan Blue guppies and the blue fancy guppy that had his tail shredded. All are doing well. 










I am still picking out ramshorns. Population is getting under control. 

I'd love to add some kuhli loaches, but 1) I don't think they'd do well with the Eco Complete and 2) I'm nearly 100% stocked right now.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

He's a beauty! 

Sorry to hear that another snail isn't doing well. If there's little alage in the tank, could they not be getting enough to eat? Do you add any algae wafers or steamed zucchini?

Glad the cories found a good home and all is well otherwise! roud:

ps- I have two khulis in my nano tank and they are getting fat, seem to be doing fine. They hang together under the rock with the shrimps when the light is on, mostly. I personally think you can have less than in a large group, and have had them in pairs many times... if you want to try them down the road, I'd say go for it!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I have not been adding algae wafers... I have since moved them out of the 20G tank into a spare jar until I figure this out. I do kinda over-feed, so I assumed there was food at the bottom. Even with algae wafers, the fish would eat those up before a snail could get to it anyway. I'm pretty sure the brown one isn't going to make it. 

I am happy to have the cories gone. I do want a few kuhli loaches, but only 2-3. I want the banded ones, but can't seem to find anything besides the black ones around here. 

Here's some pics from yesterday:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow, the fish are looking so colorful! I really love the coloring of your dwarf gourami... he's just beautiful. Is the Goby(?) aggressive at all? 

I believe snails just eat algae/some plants, so I'm not sure they would feed on flake food. Maybe try a slice of steamed zucchini... I hear snails like those too. My shrimp love 'em!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

The gudgeons/gobies are not aggressive at all. Everyone in the tank is pretty peaceful for the most part. The gourami will dart at fish every now and again, but from all I can tell, mostly keeps to himself. 

The snails are in a 1.5 gallon jar right now. I'm going to keep them in there. Add a heater..filter. Something. They just get picked on too much with fish in the tank. The female Japan blue guppies picked at them relentlessly.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Hey Erin! 

I found my copy of Ecology of the Planted Aquarium about the dirt/sand low-tech method of planted tanks. It's the method I used for my other tanks, and the school aquariums (a 10g and a 75g) at my daughters' elementary school. It's super easy to maintain, I did water changes once a month and water top offs, with no ferts or co2 and they did really well with little algae. 

If you like, I can mail you the book.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Hey Erin!
> 
> I found my copy of Ecology of the Planted Aquarium about the dirt/sand low-tech method of planted tanks. It's the method I used for my other tanks, and the school aquariums (a 10g and a 75g) at my daughters' elementary school. It's super easy to maintain, I did water changes once a month and water top offs, with no ferts or co2 and they did really well with little algae.
> 
> If you like, I can mail you the book.


Yes, PLEASE!  Let me send you a few $$$. I am having horrible luck with my plants... so much crud everywhere.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> Yes, PLEASE!  Let me send you a few $$$. I am having horrible luck with my plants... so much crud everywhere.


No need to send $, just send the book back when you're finished. :smile: Send me a pm or message me on FB the address. 

Sorry to hear your plants are not doing well. The high tech method has been a steep learning curve for me... although the plants are thriving, so is the algae and I've accidentially killed some fish/shrimps with bad co2 equipment. It's been an expensive journey! I do like the lush ground cover, but am considering a larger low-tech tank again.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I just bought some ferts and planned on doing some PPS dosing, but I've just been lazy. I think I'm overfeeding, but don't see how that's possible. All I know is that I have gunk EVERYWHERE. I do 50% WCs every week and feed one little pinch of food each day. I just don't get it.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

I'm sorry you're having such a hard time, especially since it's your first time with the hobby. If I hadn't started a planted aquarium using her method, I think I would have become disheartened and given up pretty quickly. The more pieces of the ecosystem that you have to control/keep balanced, the easier it is for things to go out of balance.

imho, the substrate and lighting are the determining factors as to how much you have to supplement co2 and nutrients. 

With the Walstad method, as I understand it, the soil acts as a mechanism to turn the fish food and waste into nutrients for the plants. It's actually better to "overfeed" the fish as she calls it "feeding the plants". The plants help to clean the water and remove co2. However, you have to low-light (1-2 wpg) and a good amount of plants for it to work in an aquarium, and be sure to not overstock fish. She says at one point "it's better to over stock in plants, than to over stock in fish". 

The worst thing that ever occurred using her method was during the first month of setting up the 75g at school. One day out of nowhere the entire tank was green, the water was green I mean, so much that you couldn't see anything inside. I left the lights off for a couple of days and on the third day, the entire tank was clear water again... just like that.

It really was much easier, and cheaper. You do have to have the right expectations... like you won't be able to grow lush groundcovers like hc, imho. But, I enjoyed the tanks I had and the plants thrived, the fish were happy and it just worked. (In hindsight, I'm not sure how much Boulder's city water may have contributed to the success. It was really clean and pure, compared to many other places. Our in-laws always enjoyed our coffee, saying the water made the difference.) 

Another consideration is if you try this method, you'd have to revamp the substrate. It would be a redo. :icon_cry: Maybe try reading the book while giving the ferts a go (since you have them) and then decide later. (the majority of the book is mostly the science behind why each component of the tank works, complete with her experiments and data tables. If you're like me, I just skipped to the 'how' at the end and followed the instructions.  )

You could also setup a second tank using the Walstad method, transfer in a small bio load of fish, and slowly transfer over the other fish until it's empty then sell the initial setup. 

Woah... sorry that was so long! But, I hope it's somewhat helpful. Let me know if you want the book and I'll get it out to you. :smile:


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

Sorry to hear your plants aren't doing well.

So what do you mean by "gunk"? Is it algae or rotting plants?

If you haven't added any fertilizers yet I would guess that's your problem. My plants are doing much better after a meltdown last October, by adding Leaf Zone which provides I and K, and CO2 Booster as directed. The rest of the micros are provided by the fish food, as suggested by Diana here on the forum. Easy, no fuss, and not that expensive for a 20H. I assumed the fish waste would fertilize the tank, I was wrong.

Remove all rotting vegetation, it will lead to more problems. I know you don't like Corys, but I'm a firm believer in bottom dwellers to stir things up down there. I love my Peppered Corys, they don't swim around frantically and don't bump into things. They just calmly poke around on the plants and bottom looking for food, I don't know what was up with your albinos. Maybe they can't see very well. 

I always wondered if your light was bright enough, but your pictures are similar in brightness to mine, so I'd try fertilizers first.

I also added a cheap HOB 10g filter for the other side of the tank from the 20g one a while back, I didn't feel I had enough water circulation, and gave me peace of mind for my bacteria colonies. I alternate changing the filter pads so I always have a colony to take care of the ammonia and nitrites.

Our paths have been similar so far, I hope what I learned helps.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> I assumed the fish waste would fertilize the tank, I was wrong.


It depends on the type of plant & setup. Here's some folks growing basil in a hydroponics system. 

If you're just beginning, it's really most important to pick a method that suits what you'd like to accomplish, and follow the specs as closely as possible: from the right substrate type and depth, the amount & type of lighting, and following the feeding/maintenance schedule.

As you get more experience, you can tweak things based on your conditions and as your expectations/wants change. 

There's some good folks here though that do just about every type/method of tank out there in the world of planted aquariums... so hopefully you'll find what you need. :smile:


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

bluestems said:


> It depends on the type of plant & setup. Here's some folks growing basil in a hydroponics system.
> 
> If you're just beginning, it's really most important to pick a method that suits what you'd like to accomplish, and follow the specs as closely as possible: from the right substrate type and depth, the amount & type of lighting, and following the feeding/maintenance schedule.
> 
> ...


I think I'm good in my tank, thank you though. I was just trying to give Erin another option for her tank instead of starting completely over with new substrate. It truly does start with lighting as you say, but her's is rather low I believe, and she shouldn't need a ton of ferts. I can't really say anymore until she responds on whether she has added any fertilizers or not, and I guess what "gunk" is.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Yes truly a lovely pic from the beginning.
Your light looks very low. I am seeing some shadows. Have you thought of upgrading your light? 

Cheapest light upgrade would be a T5HO hanging as Hyzer did for his 29G. Then there is the SolarMax T5 NO with which Jacob had over his 20G high. They can be bought at Pet Blvd.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Woah... sorry that was so long! But, I hope it's somewhat helpful. Let me know if you want the book and I'll get it out to you. :smile:


You've been EXTREMELY helpful Sherry. I appreciate all the advice, time and effort you've put into helping me. 

I *do* want low tech, low light... low maintenance. I never got into this for it to be complex or time-consuming. I wanted a simple tank, some plants and some fish. As it stands now, I've invested over $600 and I have a tank filled with crud, plants that don't thrive/survive and more conflicting information than I know what to do with. It is *the* source of my frustration. 

While I love the look of the high-tech tanks, I don't want to put that kind of effort in. 

My plans for right now? I'm just going to read and listen for the next few days.  I have $50 of nutrients I bought that are still sitting on my kitchen table that I'm not wanting to deal with. It's just... too complex.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wannaberooted said:


> Sorry to hear your plants aren't doing well.
> 
> So what do you mean by "gunk"? Is it algae or rotting plants?
> 
> ...


The gunk is poo, un-eaten food (I think?) and... well, it just looks like brown fluff. I'm not entirely sure WHAT it is, to be honest. It's everywhere. The substrate, the plants, the driftwood....

I am dosing (very infrequently) with Excel Comprehensive. I had a member on another forum talk me into this: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html

I'm not sold on it simply because it's way more complex than I ever wanted to get in to. I don't doubt that it works, but it's just way more effort than I wanted to put into this hobby. 

I have root tabs in, but other than that, I don't do much. My plants have never thrived and I'd say about half of the plants I've purchased have died. I've lost well over $100 in plants. Some nice, stuff too.  They either die or just don't thrive. 

I would be willing to try cories again (esp since my stock is reduced from fish deaths), but I don't know how much food even reaches the bottom... The remaining fish pretty much gobble it all up at the surface. One of my peacock gudgeons died the other day (she was really really thin) and I wonder if it's from her not getting enough food. They are bottom dwellers and never really come to the surface, even at feeding time. 

Thanks so much for your input! I really appreciate it.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Hilde said:


> Yes truly a lovely pic from the beginning.
> Your light looks very low. I am seeing some shadows. Have you thought of upgrading your light?
> 
> Cheapest light upgrade would be a T5HO hanging as Hyzer did for his 29G. Then there is the SolarMax T5 NO with which Jacob had over his 20G high. They can be bought at Pet Blvd.


I have one 15W 8000K full spectrum bulb. When I was dealing with diatoms and other crud, everyone told me to keep the light on 6-8 hours a day, so I reduced it down from 12. I think it's on from 2:30 - 10:30, so eight hours right now. 

I don't want to upgrade my lighting at this point. I want to work with what I have and if that means covering my tank with anubias, so be it. :hihi: They are the only plant that's done well in there! LOL


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Here's a pic of the "gunk" in question.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Happy to help! :smile: I don't think your tank is far off from stabilizing. You've had a bit of a rough start and getting a lot of mixed advice (I think I used recipe metaphor on the other site, but it's really more closely related to something like vegetable gardening. I think what you're looking for is like an organic garden with some composting  )

Imho, the substrate being disrupted when you refill the tank, and moving objects around is probably causing debris into the water which is then settling on things around the tank. That's what it looks like in this pic at least. Marimo balls collect debris a lot (and are a favorite of shrimps because of it), so to clean them it's easy to pull one out after a water change and gently squeeze them in the removed tank water. 

Use the airline hose trick to suck out the excess debris and do the water change suggested on the other board. I bet after you lose the debris and stop kicking up new substrate, the ammonia level will drop back to 0. Your nitrates are good still. 

I'm not sure what happened to your plants before, but its possible not all of them were low-light type plants, however, some plants do experience a "melting" when first transplanted. They don't die entirely, but do die back and then return healthy. 

I think you're doing the right thing by stepping back to research more about the different methods available and decide what you want to do. Some people do just fine with low light plants under low light and occasional dosing of ferts with your substrate. (I believe root tabs can work in this situation) 

You might consider posting a fts with a list of plants you currently have to get some feedback on whether they're good for your setup and suggestions. There are many low-light plant options.

btw, 15w for a 20g is less than 1 watt per gallon, but you do have the a good light spectrum. Low light tanks typically have between 1-2 wpg. Reducing the photoperiod, imho, was not the right direction to go with such a low light to begin with. When we know more about what plants you have now, it will help.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

fyi, here's a current thread going on about PPS-Pro dosing over on the ferts & water parameters forum that you might be interested in.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=265354&highlight=pps+pro


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Best fertilizer I have found is by
Greg Sage @ selectaquatics.com 303 204 8662. It contains Calcium sulfate, Iron s, Magnesium sulfate, Potas sulfate and much more. It comes in dry form and make a mixture with it thus it last a long time. I bought some off of a member of aquarium club. Thus I don't what the cost is with shipping. I just know it is under $20.

My mixture is 1 litter of water and 1ml of powder, which I measure with a baby medicine dispenser. The weekly I dose with baby syringe 15ml.

With PPS-Pro dosing your are basically over dosing and thus have to do water changes weekly. I only do water changes monthly.

To keep algae under control, BBA, I have 3hr siesta period with lights. It works, according to Diana Walstad, because it allows Co2 to build up.


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> The gunk is poo, un-eaten food (I think?) and... well, it just looks like brown fluff. I'm not entirely sure WHAT it is, to be honest. It's everywhere. The substrate, the plants, the driftwood....
> 
> I am dosing (very infrequently) with Excel Comprehensive. I had a member on another forum talk me into this: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/pps-analysis-feedback/39491-newbie-guide-pps-pro.html
> 
> ...


You're welcome, I hope I am helping and not confusing you.

Bluestems is right on in her post, I just have a couple additions.

I don't think you will be able to grow any stem plants, so don't bother trying. Many plants don't feed through their roots, or not much, so you need ferts in the water column. You need to learn how to use them and be diligent on using them.

Vacuum the gunk up at water change, there's plenty of cheap tank vacs out there that will make it easy.

As far as feeding bottom feeders, just watch when you feed the fish and see if you think enough is getting to the bottom if it's flakes. There are algae wafers, which contain more than just algae, and pellets that sink if there isn't enough getting to the bottom. Frozen bloodworms also sink, but they are a little more hassle. I have four different types of food, freeze-dried bloodworms, frozen bloodworms, flake food, and algae wafers to keep everyone happy. For me, one good feeding a day is working, twice a day was raising my nitrates too high.

Good luck and learning!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

The brown fluff continues. I did a 9G water change on Sunday and a 6 gallon water change on Tuesday. And still, there's crap everywhere. I feel like it's fish poop, mostly. 

*sigh*

I will fertilize, I promise. I just want this sorted first.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Can you take a fts and a close up of the 'fluff'? 

Did you use the airline tube to try to remove the debris, and when putting the water back in, use a plate or your hand to slowly pour water over? 

If it's poop/debris, and you're doing that much water change, then it should be coming out assuming you're not stirring it up too much as you go. Given that you're not feeding too much than there's no way it's recent accumulation. 

Could be something else, that's where the additional pics would be helpful.

Don't worry... we'll help you get it sorted out.

Also, did you begin increasing your photoperiod? Ferts won't really do a whole lot until the light is bumped up a bit.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Can you take a fts and a close up of the 'fluff'?
> 
> Did you use the airline tube to try to remove the debris, and when putting the water back in, use a plate or your hand to slowly pour water over?
> 
> ...


I did suck up some of the debris with my siphon. 

I have to admit, I put the water back in aggressively so it WOULD stir up the stuff in the hopes it would then go through the filter. 

I haven't increased my photoperiod. I'm at eight hours now. What's your suggestion?

Here are pics:


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## wootlaws (Feb 25, 2011)

Looks like fish waste to me. I had the same problem and put in some Corys this week to stir up the bottom and the java moss are clean along with the substrate.


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## Chrisinator (Jun 5, 2008)

I would add another powerhead in order for the filter to pick it up with more water movement.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

It's good to try to siphon out as much as you can. Stirring it up only works if your filter is powerful enough to suck up all the water and filter it before the debris settles, which isn't happening.

Since there is so much, I really encourage you to give the airline tubing a try. You'll be able to suck up a ton more debris without stirring it up and without taking out nearly as much water. So, you'll be able to go through the entire tank two, three times by the time you remove that 6 gallons. 

Only use the airline tubing along the wood, large rocks and plants though. It will suck up the substrate. If you do unintentionally suck up a bit of the substrate, and it gets stuck in the line, pinching the clog will bust it up and make it move along.

Using the airline tubing will take more time, just put on a little music, move slowly, and be amazed at all the gunk it sucks up. 

Please do not stir it up anymore. But if you do, just let it settle again and siphon it out at the next water change. Try it and see if it doesn't make a big difference :smile:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

This really does look nice, Erin :smile:

With less than 1w per gallon, I think you can safely increase the timing. Try bumping it 1/2hr per day until you reach 10 hours. Once you begin dosing ferts, they will be looking for the light to photosynthesize. 

Do the floating plants move around? If not, the plants under them could be suffering from lack of light. You might want to plant them instead, or just pull them once you begin dosing. (so they don't out-compete the other plants for the light and nutrients)


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

And this is the most magnificent close up of poo I've seen!  

Seriously, you have mad camera skills :smile:


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## crazydog64 (Jul 25, 2011)

You had talked a bit ago about shredded tails on some of your guppies, I am willing to bet its from the Peacock gudgeons. I had 2 in with my guppies and they seemed peaceful as well but notice they generally stay in the bottom of the tank and the guppies towards the top. Watch them when the lights are out and see what happens when a guppy comes to close. I actually observed the gudgeon taking parts of the tail off of one of my best looking guppies. After returning them to the LFS I had no more problems.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

LOL Look at my poop photographing skills!

OK, I'll do the airline tubing thing. Would taking the filter off one of my siphons work? When the filter is off, it kinda looks and functions like airline tubing. However, it sucks up stuff aggressively and FAST. Let me know your thoughts.

I'm going to get a picture of how much food I feed and post it on here. 

The floating plants do not move around a lot. When I do WC, they do, but I keep guiding them over to the side. They will eventually stay there. 

OK, I'll up the photoperiod a half hour tonight when I get home. 

One of my gudgeons has passed crazydog. :icon_cry: It was the female. She was super thin when I found her on her last day. RE: the shredded tail, I haven't had one since the blue fancy guppy several months ago. Most of his tail grew back, thank goodness!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Definitely get the airline tubing... it's small enough diameter that it won't suck up much water so you can get a more thorough cleaning. Usually fish stores carry it in bulk, and you can just purchase the length you need and it's cheap. 

It will also be nice later on if you need to remove some types of algae with it.

Save those siphons though as you'll want to go back to using those after you get the gunk under control. 

The technique is different too with using an airline tubing. Use a bulb aspirator on one end to begin the siphon. You'll want to hold it just above the debris and let it suck it up. Move it slowly along all the plant leaves too and try not to move the plant so the debris stays in place to get sucked up. 



Let us know how it goes!


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Definitely get the airline tubing... it's small enough diameter that it won't suck up much water so you can get a more thorough cleaning. Usually fish stores carry it in bulk, and you can just purchase the length you need and it's cheap.
> 
> It will also be nice later on if you need to remove some types of algae with it.
> 
> ...


Do you think getting some cories would help? I'm open to trying them again (just not albinos).

I will get some airline tubing tonight.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I posted a thread specifically about this mulm (finally, the word I've been looking for!) here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=2767186&posted=1#post2767186


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> Do you think getting some cories would help? I'm open to trying them again (just not albinos).
> 
> I will get some airline tubing tonight.


I replied in the other thread too. I'd wait on the cories until after the ammonia spike is back down to zero again, and you have the tank conditions stabilized. If you're not moving plants and things around, or stirring up the substrate anymore, the mulm :icon_cool ... the mulm shouldn't be a problem anymore. 

Check out pygmy cories (Corydoras pygmaeus) for an option down the road. I had those when I first began this tank and they are super fun. They tend to school and have great personalities. Not like a typical cory, imho. :smile:


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## Wannaberooted (Jun 24, 2012)

bluestems said:


> I replied in the other thread too. I'd wait on the cories until after the ammonia spike is back down to zero again, and you have the tank conditions stabilized. If you're not moving plants and things around, or stirring up the substrate anymore, the mulm :icon_cool ... the mulm shouldn't be a problem anymore.
> 
> Check out pygmy cories (Corydoras pygmaeus) for an option down the road. I had those when I first began this tank and they are super fun. They tend to school and have great personalities. Not like a typical cory, imho. :smile:


What she said, everywhere.

I've gone through this before. Plants dying, roots rotting, too much ammonia, fish dying, a horrible cycle. You seem to be close to figuring it out. 

Corys are sensitive to ammonia, so if you are in a cycle definately wait until you get some. My original Peppered Corys died in my crash which broke my heart, but I had nowhere else to put them. I had gray crud everywhere in their absence. Once everything was stable I got three more, and it took them three days to banish all the crud to the filters. 

I also added a cheap 10 gallon HOB filter to the other side of the tank from the other one. For only 15 bucks it adds an additional bacteria colony, and if you alternate changing the filter pads between the two HOB's, you always have a colony. My water is crystal clear now. You seem to have a pretty powerful one for a 20 gallon though, but I have no experience with the one you have.

I hope you have better luck finding Corys in your town than I. I have a choice of just a couple different types here. I know I should have more than three Peppered, but they are calm, and as they get pretty big for a 20g I didn't want to overstock. If they were freaking out I'd add another, but it isn't the case. They just poke around all the plants and Flourite looking for food, sometimes together, sometimes not.

I hope things turn around for you soon.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

I'm about ready to throw in the towel. This is so frustrating. :icon_cry:

I couldn't find airline tubing in the size I wanted at PetSmart, so I had to use my regular siphons today. One of them wouldn't work (the one that's smaller - the one I *wanted* to use). 

Did a nine gallon water change today (about 50%) and there's still SO. MUCH. CRAP in the tank. I feel bad for my fish.

Found my last mystery snail dead today. *sigh*. That's three of them that have died since I started this hobby last fall. He was totally out of his shell and disintegrated. I have been dosing Excel Comprehensive (1ml) twice a week. Could that have killed him? I also know I have a tiny assassin snail (about the size of an eraserhead) roaming the tank somewhere. Could the assassin snail have killed him? 

Many of my plants got uprooted today when I was vac'ing the substrate. 

And there's still mulm EVERYWHERE.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Sorry to hear, but a regular siphon just won't allow you to get rid of the mulm like the airline tubing. Also if you're dislodging plants, you are disturbing the substrate and causing even MORE mulm above.

It's an easy fix, but you have to follow to rules... get an airline tube and siphon the mulm up with it. It should only take once, maybe twice to get it all. Remember, you're trying to suck out the exposed mulm off the plants, rocks, top of the substrate at this point, so you shouldn't be going into the substrate yet.

If you keep doing the same thing, you won't get any different results.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> Sorry to hear, but a regular siphon just won't allow you to get rid of the mulm like the airline tubing. Also if you're dislodging plants, you are disturbing the substrate and causing even MORE mulm above.
> 
> It's an easy fix, but you have to follow to rules... get an airline tube and siphon the mulm up with it. It should only take once, maybe twice to get it all. Remember, you're trying to suck out the exposed mulm off the plants, rocks, top of the substrate at this point, so you shouldn't be going into the substrate yet.
> 
> If you keep doing the same thing, you won't get any different results.


I *am* going to get the airline tubing, when I can find it. I had to do a water change today and didn't have the tubing, so I made do with what I had.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

OK, I'm starting to wonder if airline tubing only comes in one size. Does it? I was looking for something with a larger opening, but I only see this narrow stuff.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Yea it's only one size, straight tubing. Not normally used for siphoning but works great when u need to suck out debris or loose algae without removing a lot of water. When u use it, just hold the end of it just above the mulm and move it through the tank slowly. It will take longer but you'll be able to go over every leaf and rock before u have 6-9 gallons taken out. Do not go into the gravel with it. Just hover... :smile:


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well that was fun... and frustrating! :icon_lol: siphon siphon siphon.... rock.... siphon siphon.... rock (eco complete clogged the line... a lot!)... siphon... rock rock rock... siphon siphon siphon...

I had twist-tied the airline tubing to a long, narrow piece of bamboo to get better maneuvering, but each time I got a rock in the tube, I'd have to undo it. I need a little tiny open-weave mesh on the end of the airline tubing so I don't suck up the eco complete. 

Well, I think I made some progress though. I think I have a lot more to suck out, but I feel better than I did a few hours ago. 

I think I'm going to see about trading the narrow-leaf anacharis to the LFS for some cory cats... soon! 

Again, thanks Sherry for your help. What would I do without you? :icon_wink


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Yay, it does look better! :thumbsup: Hopefully there's a light at the end of the tunnel too. 

I try to avoid the gravel as much as possible, but if I do suck a piece up, I can remove a clog by pinching it. Easy and you don't have to stop the siphon or remove the line to unclog. 

At least it's only another one, maybe two, more times with the airline before you get all the mulm out? All the water changes that you've been doing should also help with the ammonia spike. 

After the visible mulm is gone and you return to normal siphoning, I'd suggest you *take it easy*, no need to get too deep into the gravel, and definitely avoid uprooting any plants. The goal is not to get every last bit of gunk out of the gravel, but to get the surface accumulation, and just reduce it in general. :smile: 

When you look for cories, check out the specific one Corydoras pygmaeus, the Pygmy Cory. They stay really small, school together and have the best little personalities. When I had a school of five in my nano, I was up really late one night and so they were up. One of them kept trying to sleep and the other pygmys would come over and nudge him or bounce on him a little as if to say, "come on! let's play!" Such cute little fish. 

Now I want pygmy cories again! :icon_redf


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Well oddly enough, I have a high ammo reading - .50ppm 
Nitrates are 5.0 ppm and nitrites are 0 ppm.

What should I do about the high ammo reading? I'm worried!!! I've never had it this high before. Odd considering how much water, poo and mulm I got out today!

I don't think my LFS has pygmy cories unfortunately. Those are the ones I want, too!

I'd say about 70% of the mulm is out.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> Well oddly enough, I have a high ammo reading - .50ppm
> Nitrates are 5.0 ppm and nitrites are 0 ppm.
> 
> What should I do about the high ammo reading? I'm worried!!! I've never had it this high before. Odd considering how much water, poo and mulm I got out today!
> ...


It's most likely due to an ammonia spike when the plants were uprooted. That will happen every time. If you took out 20% of the water tonight, do another 20% water change (just water, no need to siphon gravel or mulm out more tonight) and do another 20% water change tomorrow. Retest the water. If it's still high, keep up with the small water changes every other day until it's down again. 

Be careful when pouring the water back in to avoid disturbing the substrate. 

Also, do you have carbon filtration in your filter? It could need to be changed, especially given how much debris has been kicked up lately.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> It's most likely due to an ammonia spike when the plants were uprooted. That will happen every time. If you took out 20% of the water tonight, do another 20% water change (just water, no need to siphon gravel or mulm out more tonight) and do another 20% water change tomorrow. Retest the water. If it's still high, keep up with the small water changes every other day until it's down again.
> 
> Be careful when pouring the water back in to avoid disturbing the substrate.
> 
> Also, do you have carbon filtration in your filter? It could need to be changed, especially given how much debris has been kicked up lately.


OK, done. I probably changed out about 80% of the water today between the original WC, the airline tubing clean and the 3 gallon WC I just did. 

Hope all my fishies are ok. :icon_redf


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> OK, done. I probably changed out about 80% of the water today between the original WC, the airline tubing clean and the 3 gallon WC I just did.
> 
> Hope all my fishies are ok. :icon_redf


I hope so too. It's good that you double checked your water parameters as that last water change was necessary. 

Did you change the carbon in your filter? That I would definitely do as well.

Once the ammonia level is down... and it should drop with the small daily water changes until it's down again... then you'll be out of the woods. Please just avoid disturbing the substrate or plants at all during this time. You don't want to add any more.

The fish you have left must be very hardy little guys, so I'm cautiously optimistic that they'll survive this. :smile:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

ps- when you take water out in stages like you ended up doing today, I believe it's not as much of a shock to the fish as if you had done the large wc all at once.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

bluestems said:


> I hope so too. It's good that you double checked your water parameters as that last water change was necessary.
> 
> Did you change the carbon in your filter? That I would definitely do as well.
> 
> ...


I changed the filter about three weeks ago. They are those blue pads with charcoal in them like this: Amazon.com: Marineland Rite-Size Cartridge B, 6-Pack: Pet Supplies

So I don't have a way to just change the carbon.

The glowlight tetras are very, very hardy!

I wonder if some of the ammo is from the dead snail I found today, too. He was all tore up and out of his shell. I'm guessing it'd be at least a day he was in there, dead.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

callisto9 said:


> I changed the filter about three weeks ago. They are those blue pads with charcoal in them like this: Amazon.com: Marineland Rite-Size Cartridge B, 6-Pack: Pet Supplies
> 
> So I don't have a way to just change the carbon.
> 
> ...


There was a dead snail? That definitely would have contributed. 

I'd change the filter. Carbon when it gets full will begin releasing the contaminates, and there's been more than normal lately. I wouldn't risk it. A fresh filter would only help. 

Off to bed now, but let us know what the ammonia levels are after tomorrow's small wc. (remember, no big siphon or disturbing the substrate/plant roots. sorry to be redundant, I just don't want any more setbacks for you!) 

Using the airline tubing is ok to get at the rest of the exposed mulm, and removing any dead plant leaves is good too. Hopefully no more dead snails, or fish. :icon_neut

Those little tetras deserve some frozen brine shrimp treat after all this gets resolved. :icon_mrgr


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Yep, I mentioned it in post #94. 

Re: changing the filter - will it do anything to the bacterial colony and start a mini-cycle? I've always read not to change the filter unless it's absolutely decomposing. The last time I changed it, I had another filter in there, too, cycling, before I took the old one out. 

Doing a WC here in a few mins...



bluestems said:


> There was a dead snail? That definitely would have contributed.
> 
> I'd change the filter. Carbon when it gets full will begin releasing the contaminates, and there's been more than normal lately. I wouldn't risk it. A fresh filter would only help.
> 
> ...


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

The biological filtration is on your biowheel. While there may be some bacteria everywhere inside the filter, the main purpose of the blue pad is the chemical filtration of the charcoal. If the charcoal is full however, it begins to release the contaminates back into the water. That's why you have to change it every so often... more often if there's more contaminates. Given this past month, I think it definitely should be changed.

You can use the airline tubing again if you have time to try to remove the remaining exposed mulm off the plants and rocks. I'd also recommend trimming any dead leaves.

As always, avoid disturbing the substrate or uprooting the plants and causing any more water borne mulm. Things should be getting better. :smile:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

ps- do you know to never clean the biowheel?


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Yes, I do know not to touch the biowheel. 

Ammonia is now at between 0ppm and .25ppm. Getting better!


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Yes, moving in the right direction! roud:

You should only need another water change tomorrow, and maybe airline any remaining exposed mulm out. Then let's let it be until the weekend... unless something happens in the interim.


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## callisto9 (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks for all your help Sherry. I found some dwarf/pygmy corys online. Very tempted. No one local has the little ones.


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

They are hard to pass up, but I'd think you would want to wait at the very least a couple of weeks after getting your tank stabilized, and making sure you have a good maintenance routine down without any more ammonia spikes. 

It'll be worth it in the end. :smile:


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## bluestems (Feb 7, 2012)

Just a note that when you look for cories, there are three dwarf cories that are supposed to be similar in personalities: corydorus pygmaeus, c. habrosus and c. hastatus. 

I've only had the pygmy but you might find one of the other two locally, or you might like their coloration better. :smile:


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