# Blue Green Algae problem!!



## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

I get on here periodically when I see someone complaining about BGA and say the same thing. NUKE IT!!! After battling that stuff for a year and losing, I have come to the conclusion that the only way to be truly rid of it is by dosing up your tank with Maracyn. Make sure to sterilize your nets and such after your 5 day Maracyn treatment as well, so you don't reintroduce it to the tank.
Maracyn will not kill your beneficial bacteria and doesn't affect your fish or shrimp. I had to treat all of my tanks with it and nothing was affected but the BGA, which died about day 5. I treated for 7 days just to be damn sure it was gone. You can buy maracyn here:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produ...ll&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&N=2004&Nty=1
or at any Petsmart or Petco.
-Aphyosemion


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

so i cant just reduce my ferts and it'll die? I thought if I change 50% water each week combined with KNO3, K2SO4 and iron and leave out any other ferts for the time being my minor at (the moment) algae problem will go away?

because of the move about 2 weeks ago the plants are taking a while to recover.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

A 3 day blackout and KNO3 dosing will solve the issue and resolve the root cause, low NO3.

I've used Antibiotics recently to show how fast the BGa will come back if the NO3 issue was not addressed, about a month.

Blackout takes about 3-5 days to come back.

So neither will do anything about the long term issue and the antibiotic method completely ignores the root cause and folks do nto tell yuo WHY the BGA is there in the first place, take a pill, not take care of the plants...........

BGA showed up for a reason. Not a lack of Antibiotics.

Antiobiotics are hard to get many enlightened places without a prescription.
UK is one such place. 

If you believe antibiotic resistent issues do not effect the aquarist, I suggest you read Wright's post on the APD. 

Blackout?
No one has died yet to the best of my knowledge and it's FREE, takes less time(3 days) and as I've suggested, adding KNO3 will address the root cause.

Not sure how you can argue against this.
Pill poppers never once solved the root cause of why they got it.
But both methods are repeatable and reinfection occurs consistently if the KNO3 or NO3 levels are not brought back up.

50% water change, remove all that's there, clean filters, trim any over grown regions in the tank, turn off CO2, add 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gal of tank of KNO3, wrap tank in trash bag, towels etc so that no light gets in for 3 full days, remove afterwards, water change again, add KNO3 again and thereafter 1-3x a week depending of plant biomass/fish load/light level etc. Reconnect CO2.

Remember, if it does not grow the plants, don't add it.
Antibiotics are not plant nutrients and the BGA did not appear due to "lack" of antibiotics.

It appeared because it is specialized to grow well in low NO3 environment. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## danmhippo (Feb 3, 2005)

Tom, can you translate the dosage in ppm of nitrate for me? I am not using dry ferts, but flourish nitrogen which I believe is KNO3.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> 50% water change, remove all that's there, clean filters, trim any over grown regions in the tank, turn off CO2, add 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gal of tank of KNO3, wrap tank in trash bag, towels etc so that no light gets in for 3 full days, remove afterwards, water change again, add KNO3 again and thereafter 1-3x a week depending of plant biomass/fish load/light level etc. Reconnect CO2.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



That sounds like good advise to me, how about adding carbon to a filter for 3-4 days to get rid of any unwanted nutrients or impurities(after the water change). This something that I did recently (slightly different than above) but I thought the carbon really helped.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I disagree with the comment that of not taking care of the plants. My most neglected tank I own - my q/t tank - has crypts and anubias in it. Unless I have a fish in q/t, I don't do anything to it. The only algae I see in there is green spot. When I had my angelfish babies in there, they were being fed 3 times a day so there was a nitrate source. After they were removed, it sat unoccupied for 6 weeks. Still no bga.

I'll reiterate. The only time I've had difficulty with bga has been after using sea salt to medicate for ich. Sea salt has a spit load of trace elements. It cannot be a coincidence because another tank was treated at nearly the same time and had the same result.


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

well my tank always has No3 in it...I only added 10ppm the other day. I first got bga when i replaced the substrate with a nutrient rich JBL aqua basis. My tank has been in its new home for two weeks now and I added a full strength dose of TMG and bga came back? I'm leading towards thinking that I should dose NPK and iron and monitor the plants growth habbits. My tap water is very hard so i might have enough traces already...i'm replacing 25%-50% water a week.

I'll read through what plantbrain said and review my thoughts later.


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

I hate to disagree with other people that have a lot of experience, but in this case I have to. Saying that BGA showed up because of low nitrates is like saying you got leprosy because you smoke. It just doesn't make sense. You get BGA because you INTRODUCED it to the tank via plants or water from the LFS. 
Also, blackouts do NOTHING to get rid of BGA and you are weakening your plants and wasting your time by doing them. When you turn the lights back on, you will see very little BGA, but it will be back with a vengeance in about 3 days and your plants will be a little weaker to show for your effort.
Balancing your tank parameters is always a good idea, but BGA has the potential to show up and cover every single plant in your tank in about 1 to 2 weeks. After that your plants will not be able to grow or compete because they will not be receiving sufficient light. Good luck balancing your parameters without any help from the plants. You may be able to balance your tank and get rid of a very small BGA problem, but it will still be in your tank, waiting for something to get out of whack and then it will be back again.
It will also get into your other tanks via nets and wet hands and you had better hope that all those tanks have perfect water parameters as well, or BAM, BGA outbreak!
Also, saying that you can't treat your tank with Maracyn and be permanently rid of BGA is erroneous. I had BGA in all 7 of my tanks to the point that it covered EVERYTHING when I first started trying to keep planted tanks. After treating them all with Maracyn and then disinfecting my nets and equipment, it has never come back. All the nitrate balancing and scrubbing and ferts in the world had no effect on it, but the Maracyn got rid of it in 6 days. If Plantbrain sees BGA again within a month after treating his tanks, I would suggest he needs to sterilize his equipment better and be careful he is not bringing it back from another tank that has BGA, but not visibly, due to near perfect water conditions.
Screwing with your water parameters is all well and good, but when dealing with a plague like BGA, you are better just to treat your tank and be rid of it permanently. Maracyn has no effect on fish or plants and doesn't kill the beneficial bacteria, so there is very little reason not to use it in the case of a BGA outbreak.
-Aphyosemion


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

danmhippo said:


> Tom, can you translate the dosage in ppm of nitrate for me? I am not using dry ferts, but flourish nitrogen which I believe is KNO3.


10-11ppm or so depending on decore and gravel rock etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TINNGG said:


> I disagree with the comment that of not taking care of the plants. My most neglected tank I own - my q/t tank - has crypts and anubias in it. Unless I have a fish in q/t, I don't do anything to it. The only algae I see in there is green spot. When I had my angelfish babies in there, they were being fed 3 times a day so there was a nitrate source. After they were removed, it sat unoccupied for 6 weeks. Still no bga.
> 
> I'll reiterate. The only time I've had difficulty with bga has been after using sea salt to medicate for ich. Sea salt has a spit load of trace elements. It cannot be a coincidence because another tank was treated at nearly the same time and had the same result.


So why don't we all have BGA blooms then if what you say is true?????
Why doesn't adding traces cause algae in excess amounts?
Salt stresses plants. They do not like it. 

Adding food and having ich sounds like you have other issues occuring.
Rather than taking a simple situation, that has created a more complex one.
There are possible other things you can do to stunt plant growth, clearly salt, medications, other environmental issues are occuring.

I have not had ich in a planted tank.......hummm.....ever, that's well over 15 years ago now. A well run planted tank will cause the disease to subside with no medications.

I've added fish in planted tanks from the LFS or aucations that had ich coming in, in 1-3 days, it was gone.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Aphyosemion said:


> You get BGA because you INTRODUCED it to the tank via plants or water from the LFS.


Err, it's airborn and unless you have a clean room and hepa filters etc, even the aftermath of a Nuke explosion, Volcanic eruption, high intensity fire etc, BGA recolonizies in about 20 days. You can check out fire ecology studies and see this. You have it right now.

I've never seen a sample of gravel from a planted tank without BGA. EWach time I put a sample under the scope, I see the same old BGA.
It's there, you just cannot see it unless it blooms.



> Also, blackouts do NOTHING to get rid of BGA


Have you tried it yet? Apprently not, because the tanks are clean after the 3 days.............Blackout kills what's there, just like the antibiotic.

Not sure why you say this without having ever tried it. Anyone with BGa can try this and see the result, there is no debate there. If you completely cover the tank and follow the directions, it works 100% of the time.

If not, maybe it will, maybe it won't. 

KNO3 additions are the solution for the environmental root cause and also pruning, general maintenance/filter cleaning.



> and you are weakening your plants and wasting your time by doing them.


I've never had any weakened plant issue for a 3 day routine. Plant's do fine and folks ship them over longer peroids just fine, it's the temps, not the darkness that causes shipping issues.
3 days will never make or break any plant or tank.



> When you turn the lights back on, you will see very little BGA,


You will not see any if you actually did a full fledged blackout and covered the tank.



> but it will be back with a vengeance in about 3 days and your plants will be a little weaker to show for your effort.


It comes back with antibiotics as well, just takes a bit longer. About a month, which shows the correlation for the air born reinfection.

Blackout is nice since you can quickly tell if the environmental changes you make work or not.

You do not see that quickly with antibiotics and a lot can happen in a month so you may never seen the connection.



> Balancing your tank parameters is always a good idea, but BGA has the potential to show up and cover every single plant in your tank in about 1 to 2 weeks. After that your plants will not be able to grow or compete because they will not be receiving sufficient light.


So why are they not growing so well to begin with?
That occurs before any light issues.



> Good luck balancing your parameters without any help from the plants. You may be able to balance your tank and get rid of a very small BGA problem, but it will still be in your tank, waiting for something to get out of whack and then it will be back again.


Naw, I've done this about 100 times now.
I'm talkiing full blown nasty BGA infestations, the nastier, the better.

So how do I *GROW BGA * to do these test...........?????
If you can grow and reproduce the conditions needed for a specific species of algae, that can tell you a great deal don't you think?

I use algae as a bioindicator, in this manner, I can advise folks on control methods by knowing what algae they have. I do not even need to know the conditions for many things.



> It will also get into your other tanks via nets and wet hands and you had better hope that all those tanks have perfect water parameters as well, or BAM, BGA outbreak!


That can be said for every species of algae, but you assume they are only transferred via water, that is not true and particularly not the case with BGA.

I have added BGA to tanks many times with perfect environmental conditions for many years, I do not get BGA and have not had an issue with it for well over a decade. Maybe I'm just lucky or something?



> Also, saying that you can't treat your tank with Maracyn and be permanently rid of BGA is erroneous.


Due only to the use of Maracyn it is not. BGA is airborn and spores easily make it to folk's tanks. I recently saw a tank a friend treated with Maracyn, in about a month he had BGA growing again.
He also had, you guessed it, low/bottomed out NO3's............
He'd been on vacation and came back to no NO3 left.



> I had BGA in all 7 of my tanks to the point that it covered EVERYTHING when I first started trying to keep planted tanks. After treating them all with Maracyn and then disinfecting my nets and equipment, it has never come back. + All the nitrate balancing and scrubbing and ferts in the world had no effect on it, but the Maracyn got rid of it in 6 days.
> 
> 
> > If you did what I said, it would take 3 days and the plants would look better as a result since the method addresses the plants, needs, it adds the ferts(KNO3).
> ...


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

Tom, you raised some very interesting points about BGA and like I said, I have the utmost respect for your expertise, but I would like to raise a few points.
If BGA is airborn and always present (which I know is true to SOME extent), then I find it interesting that in 12 years of keeping usually in the area of 6 to 8 tanks that I have never had BGA, except when I introduced it via some plants I bought. I could see it on the plants when I bought them, but had no idea what it was. You might argue that all of those tanks I had were very well balanced, but I assure you that was not the case at all. For at least the first 5 years they were overstocked and under maintained. Never once did BGA spontaneously appear. The one time when it did present itself was via a very obvious introduction. Also, you can't say it was low lighting, because I had high light tanks with plants off and on back then as well, even though I had no idea what I was doing. If you take a sterile tank and fill it with water and light it up, you will eventually get algae, but the chances you will develop BGA without a direct introduction, assuming you don't live near a swamp are very slim indeed.
You seemed to think that I was speaking of blackouts vs. BGA without any experience, but that is far from the truth. After a year of BGA in 7 tanks, I tried everything recommended, including blackouts. I tried blackouts ranging from 3 days to 7 days and each time the BGA would appear to be gone, but would return within about 3 days. You should know with your vast experience that algae (and especially BGA, I would think) tends to go into a dormant mode when the conditions aren't right, much like bacteria, and wait for conditions to again be favorable. It is for that reason that blackouts are not a solution. It is still there and will be back.
Also, saying that low nitrates causes BGA outbreaks may be true to some extent, considering BGA has an advantage over plants and normal algae under those conditions, raising nitrate levels in my 7 tanks didn't affect the BGA. Once it was in there good, there was no real way to get it to go away without Maracyn.
I don't doubt you have beat BGA many times via careful controls of water parameters. I would have loved to have you come over to my place at the height of the plague and spent a month messing with parameters, trying to get the BGA to go away. Maybe you could have eventually done it, but I could have used a control tank with Maracyn and had it gone in 5 days.
It has never been back and the conditions in all my tanks are still not optimal. If it were still in there it would be flaring up in at least 2 of my tanks for sure and likely all of them.
If you are in an area where you can't get Maracyn, you have no choice but to try the other options to get it to go away, but to the beginning or novice planted tank enthusiast, your chances of success are not great and may cause you to give up altogether. Using Maracyn is not like dropping an atomic bomb that leaves poisonous radiation for thousands of years, so it is a much better solution to the frustration and expense of a long BGA battle if you can avoid it. 
-Aphyosemion


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I think...it's an NPK inbalance - and not necessarily with low nitrates either as I know of at least one case where the tank had high nitrates - combined with too much of some trace that's apparently in some water supplies but not others (and we're adding more). It's odd... I added my angels from my q/t tank just before the outbreak in my display, but my q/t tank is planted and has none. Still. Even with a mildly infested tank less than 10 feet away. Go figure.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Aphyosemion said:


> If BGA is airborn and always present (which I know is true to SOME extent), then I find it interesting that in 12 years of keeping usually in the area of 6 to 8 tanks that I have never had BGA, except when I introduced it via some plants I bought.


That does not prove much though does it?
If you have optimized tanks with good light, CO2 and low fish loads as many often do, then low NO3 can cuase issues.

At lower light, less plant growth/slower rates are not due to low NO3, things are different. 



> For at least the first 5 years they were overstocked and under maintained. Never once did BGA spontaneously appear.


So with an overstocked tank, did you believe the NO3 was low or high?
You are making my case here
But that's fine, because you can see the correlation.



> The one time when it did present itself was via a very obvious introduction. Also, you can't say it was low lighting, because I had high light tanks with plants off and on back then as well, even though I had no idea what I was doing. If you take a sterile tank and fill it with water and light it up, you will eventually get algae, but the chances you will develop BGA without a direct introduction, assuming you don't live near a swamp are very slim indeed.


I think to the potential for algae is *extermely high *. Do you sterilize the plants as well?
Once present, you cannot get rid of it without an exhaustive sterilization process. You have likely transferred spores on many species of algae to every tank.
Plants carry all sorts of things in on them.

Adding a large amount of algae that is blooming will sometimes encourage something to become established vs a few spores.
Think about adding 10000000 algae cells vs adding a few spores.
Which would have the better luck?



> I tried blackouts ranging from 3 days to 7 days and each time the BGA would appear to be gone, but would return within about 3 days.


And that is my experience as well.



> You should know with your vast experience that algae (and especially BGA, I would think) tends to go into a dormant mode when the conditions aren't right, much like bacteria, and wait for conditions to again be favorable. It is for that reason that blackouts are not a solution. It is still there and will be back.
> 
> 
> > Well that is the point, I know what the dormancy mode is, higher NO3 levels, merely doing 1/2 the step and not resolving the environmental condition is the real issues here. I know I can induce BGA repeatedly by allowing the NO3 to drop and stay there.
> ...


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## Stu (Feb 16, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> Adding a large amount of algae that is blooming will sometimes encourage something to become established vs a few spores.
> Think about adding 10000000 algae cells vs adding a few spores.
> Which would have the better luck?


That was my immediate reaction to Aphyosemion's comment as well.

Think of our human immune system as an example. We will most likely be able to fight off a few pathogens, but when bombarded with elevated levels, our bodies will not be able to cope, and therefore lead to infection.


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

I have more questions before I try this method... First off the BGA is there mainly on the gravel but it isnt doing that much now.

Why when I add Tropica Master Grow at the recommend dose does BGA appear?

I keep my NO3 at 5-10ppm, its never less that 5

my PO4 is about .5ppm

my Iron reading was .1 over the weekend.

I did a 50% water change yesterday and added 15-20ppm of K 

My tap water is really hard so i've dosed everything but the micros but including the iron obviously which i added at 9drops per 10gallons...I added 25 drops and my tank is 34gal.

If BGA appears with low NO3 why am I getting it when I add TMG?

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also, my hygrophilla was showing serious signs of lack of K, now i've been adding this K2S04 its made a big differance to the growth.

also, My amazon sword had started to grow by throwing out two new leaves in about 2 weeks but the second leaf is really pale...signs of lacking iron? my substrate is jbl aquabasis which is a clay based and supposed to store nutrients. if i add more liquid iron to the water will i run into algae problems?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I really do not trust the NO3 reading. 
Adding all the ferts except NO3 will drive it down.
If you were fine with PO4, K, NO3, then added traces, the first thing that will be used up: PO4 and NO3.

PO4 may be a better indicator.
I'd not even bother testing for Fe at all.
I see folks haggling over 0.1ppm amounts, hehe, sorry, your test kits are not telling you whether there is enough or too little Fe. Most are not accurate in terms of the bioavailable Fe, most of it is complexed and unavailable for plants.

You can read several places, mainly the APD for why Fe test kits, even Lamotte and Hach are fairly useless for planted hobbyist.
Roger Miller and I discussed it from several approaches.

You can test if you want, but it's not telling what you need to know to solve your issue. That will cause folks to believe they have another problem than they actually do.

Basically: do not be too trusting of the test kits unless you have calibrated them agaist known standard solutions(you can make these if you wish and see).

A 3-5$ cheap test kit is no standard of precise measurement.
Careful, assuming they are

Most KH abnd GH are fine but they measure units in 17.9ppm units, quite wide ranges. pH the same, when you get to PO4/NO3 and Fe, this becomes very apparent.

If you want to go through that process you can, I'd not suggest it, but will help either way.

If adding traces/TMG causes = BGA, I'd have tons of BGA, but I don't.
You have something else occuring and it's definitely not too much TMG.

Adding the TMG or any other fert, likely bottomed out the NO3.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Aphyosemion (Oct 15, 2004)

A good way to figure out if your test kit for nitrate is working is just to dose nitrates into your tank and test before and after to make sure your test kit agrees with what you know to be true (I would give it a while afterwards for the nitrates to fully mix in with the water). While I wouldn't bet money that test kits have pinpoint accuracy, they are close enough for our purposes. The exception would be iron tests, which I have heard repeatedly are useless.
It should be interesting to hear if upping your k and nitrates has any effect on your BGA. I know it didn't help mine any, but mine was more than a minor problem.
-Aphyosemion


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

hmmm ok well remember i said i added extra iron, 15ppm of K and 10ppm of No3 well last night i noticed small threads of algae apprearing. This could be due to all the traces added due to my 50% water change. The pale leaf of my sword had turned green though. um...so i if i'm to ignore my test kits for no3, po4 etc then how much and how often should i be adding no3 to kill off this BGA. it makes sense a little now because my hygrophilla is really pushing out some new growth so its most probably sucking up the no3 and thats why BGA is appearing, if this is the case i'm disapointed in my test kit because it says i have 10ppm :-(


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

I had a recent BGA outbreak (along with hair algae). I had a really hard time keeping the nitrates under control...partially due to the fact that my water source has ~5ppm NO3 out of the tap, plus the moderate fish load, combined with extremely high lighting(at least initiall) @ 5.5pwg...I have since reduced it to 2.75wpg and everything is doing much better. I still dose regularly, but I have stopped dosing NO3 and it still reads around 20ppm.. I am currently dosing K2So4, "Fleet"(PO4) and CSM+B and the BGA seems to be in check. Keep up dosing, but WATCH your water chemistry. If your BGA is like mine was, it probably seems to overnight, even after removing it the day before. If this is the case, consider reducing lighting and try one of the medications that people are suggesting. I didn't try that and still beat it, but others have had success with these products and swear that its the only sure-fire way to get rid of it. Good luck!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

GraemeK said:


> The pale leaf of my sword had turned green though. um...so i if i'm to ignore my test kits for no3, po4 etc then how much and how often should i be adding no3 to kill off this BGA. it makes sense a little now because my hygrophilla is really pushing out some new growth so its most probably sucking up the no3 and thats why BGA is appearing, if this is the case i'm disapointed in my test kit because it says i have 10ppm :-(


Sounds like you figured out how to grow the plants by dosing and not trying to starve them. Killing off the BGA will not help if you don't do something about the plants, they will tell you more than the test kits.
Likewise, so will the algae.............

Your plant improved health tells me adding it was correct, it's got 0% do to with the plants outcompeting the algae though, you are reliveing the stress on the plant, the algae has plenty of nitrogen. All algae do compared to plants............

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

yeah the sword looks better but hair algae and such like are growing too...

i'm goin to try to add some kno3 every other day at maybe 3-5ppm... and see if the algae subsides but the plant growth remains strong, as tom says i'll try to use the plants as a guide


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## GraemeK (Apr 8, 2004)

Hello All,

Well I have some more questions regarding my BGA problem. I've been adding KNO3 more reguarly and this BGA is still covering th gravel very fast but has reduced on the leaves.
I'm feeding twice a day so my PO4 is ok. I'm changing 50% water a week and adding K2SO4 which has made a big differance to my plants growth.

Question is should i be adding more KNO3 still? I'm adding 10ppm at water change then roughly another 3-5ppm a day after two days. My plants roughly use 5ppm a day.

Also as a side line question, I've had two fish die in the last few weeks since i've been doing these 50% water changes? I never had a fish die before like this. could it be the K2SO4 or just likely to be one of those things? The fish are all healthly and no signs of diesease or problems.


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