# CSM+B missing some important Traces



## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*CSM+B is missing these Traces:*

*Chlorine 
Cobalt 
Sodium (we can add this through Baking soda)
Rubidium
Nickel
Vanadium*
*Sulphur (we can add this through sulphates)*



Potassium - Protein synthesis, water and charge balance, enzyme activation.
Boron - Chlorophyll production, flowering, root growth, cell function.
Carbon - Required for all organic compounds.
Calcium - Cell wall stability and permeability, enzyme activation, cell response to stimuli.
Chlorine - Water and charge balance, photosynthesis.
Copper - Component of enzymes utilized in redox reactions that take place during photosynthesis.
Iron - Required for photosynthesis, component of enzymes utilized in redox reactions.
Magnesium - Component of chlorophyll, enzyme activation.
Manganese - Formation of amino acids, enzyme activation.
Molybdenum and Cobalt - Required for nitrate reduction.
Nickel - Enzyme activation, processing of nitrogenous material.
Sulfur - Component of proteins and the coenzymes that are involved with nutrient utilization and growth.
Zinc - Chlorophyll production, enzyme activation.

*Why does it matter? Nickel help absorb Urea, if you are dosing seachem Nitrogen and using CSM+b you wont see the best results. i think csm+b can be improved simily by ading adding some NiCl2. Cobalt, i dont think we have to worry much about this one.*



the reason i ask because am looking for a better Trace than the CSM+B, i was looking at Azomite trace element, i think it got tons of trace elements. but i never used it before, has anyone ever used it?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm very curious about this stuff myself. I have been thinking about ordering some from Amazon but haven't heard much about anyone using this. I think I remember seeing someone used it in clay root tabs they made but don't remember where I saw that. I know they use it in aquaculture and as a feed additive so it will be safe for our livestock.

I always try to find natural products that can work for our purposes. I actually made some clay root tabs some time ago and added kelp meal to them. I would love to hear from someone that has used this but I have a feeling there isn't many people. I wonder if it has some similarities to montmorillonite clay or Calcium Montmorillonite clay. I actually use Calcium Montmorillonite clay in my pond for my koi and have for some years now. It may be worth the $8 to try it out. Whats the worst that could happen?....


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

ua hua said:


> I'm very curious about this stuff myself. I have been thinking about ordering some from Amazon but haven't heard much about anyone using this. I think I remember seeing someone used it in clay root tabs they made but don't remember where I saw that. I know they use it in aquaculture and as a feed additive so it will be safe for our livestock.
> 
> I always try to find natural products that can work for our purposes. I actually made some clay root tabs some time ago and added kelp meal to them. I would love to hear from someone that has used this but I have a feeling there isn't many people. I wonder if it has some similarities to montmorillonite clay or Calcium Montmorillonite clay. I actually use Calcium Montmorillonite clay in my pond for my koi and have for some years now. It may be worth the $8 to try it out. Whats the worst that could happen?....


 
i think i have seen some website who claim they used it under substrate but never seen anyone use it as liquid trace, am not sure if that is even possible with Azomite, if this did not work i think i will try to add those traces seperatly. the problem will be getting a accurate measurments yo make the csm+b little bit better, i was thinking about making it more like Seachem Trace.


the worse i could think of that could happen is that it might add too much metals into the water if not done correctly, far as root feeding goes i think osmocote is a better choice, but i really wanted to make a new liquid trace.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i think you were talking about this website

http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/substrate/4256-new-recipe-procedure-mineralized-topsoil.html

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...oliciting-input-new-way-make-mineralized.html


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

happi said:


> i think i have seen some website who claim they used it under substrate but never seen anyone use it as liquid trace, am not sure if that is even possible with Azomite, if this did not work i think i will try to add those traces seperatly. the problem will be getting a accurate measurments yo make the csm+b little bit better, i was thinking about making it more like Seachem Trace.
> 
> 
> the worse i could think of that could happen is that it might add too much metals into the water if not done correctly, far as root feeding goes i think osmocote is a better choice, but i really wanted to make a new liquid trace.


I don't know why you couldn't make a liquid trace out of it. 

Just mix it in water but at what %, I don't know the answer to that. From what I have read people mix it at 1tbs./gal. for feeding vegetables but that would be way more than what is needed for use in an aquarium.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

ua hua said:


> I don't know why you couldn't make a liquid trace out of it.
> 
> Just mix it in water but at what %, I don't know the answer to that. From what I have read people mix it at 1tbs./gal. for feeding vegetables but that would be way more than what is needed for use in an aquarium.


 
i have heard its not very soluble in water, the only way to find out is to try it first and see what will happen, all we need is someone who can break down the numbers for us similar to making csm+b solution.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

happi said:


> i have heard its not very soluble in water, the only way to find out is to try it first and see what will happen, all we need is someone who can break down the numbers for us similar to making csm+b solution.


I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head. I was a little concerned with some of the heavy metals like the copper. I don't know how that would affect inverts but they do use it in aquaculture for farming shrimp so you would think if it was harmful to inverts they wouldn't use it to raise fish and shrimp.

I still may just get some and make up some clay tabs to put around certain plants after my soil becomes depleted in the future.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

ua hua said:


> I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head. I was a little concerned with some of the heavy metals like the copper. I don't know how that would affect inverts but they do use it in aquaculture for farming shrimp so you would think if it was harmful to inverts they wouldn't use it to raise fish and shrimp.
> 
> I still may just get some and make up some clay tabs to put around certain plants after my soil becomes depleted in the future.


 
in those links i posted, they said its OK to use with shrimps.

if someone could help me figure out the numbers i will give him credit for his work when ever i come up with better Trace mix.


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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

Just when I get my CSM+B solution made and my dosing finally figured out you want me to worry about vanadium deficiency ? Oy.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

I once asked about Azomite on Tom's forum as possible mixture with soil based sediment.
Some expressed concern's over the number/% of metal's according to data sheet.


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## Tmuck44 (Mar 17, 2013)

wouldn't you get some trace elements out of your tap water?


_Posted from Plantedtank.net App for Android_


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Tmuck44 said:


> wouldn't you get some trace elements out of your tap water?
> 
> 
> _Posted from Plantedtank.net App for Android_


 
yes, but people like me who use 100% RO water wont get all the trace elements, the reason i use 100% RO to have a better control on the nutrients.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Jack Gilvey said:


> Just when I get my CSM+B solution made and my dosing finally figured out you want me to worry about vanadium deficiency ? Oy.


 
people using csm+b should be fine, we been using it for long time now, all am saying is that it can be improved further.


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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

happi said:


> people using csm+b should be fine, we been using it for long time now, all am saying is that it can be improved further.


 I know.  Will certainly follow along!


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## dzega (Apr 22, 2013)

ua hua said:


> I would love it if someone could figure out the numbers for a mixture but that is way over my head.


i think easiest way is to base calculation simply on Fe. if you know Fe amount in that particular trace mix, and you know what ppm you aiming for.. it cant get simplier that that. and when you get your dose based on Fe, check for Cu you adding with that dose


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

Azomite huh, I've been using it for the past 2 years lol. I've used it in planted tanks, shrimp tanks, even in a cichlid tank. Azomite powder helps to boost fishes immune system to fight off parasites, disease, as well as boost the overall growth. For shrimp it helps immune system as well, but also helps to strengthen their exoskeleton and boost overall growth.

For aquatic plants Azomite supplies a mineral rich additive, helps to boost the plants ability to fight off parasites, and gives great overall growth.

Now here's the *WARNING* about Azomite in the planted tank.

Azomite is a potent substance, meaning that if you add too much too fast your plants will start dying off. I use 1/4 teaspoon of Azomite powder per 55 gallons of water once a month, that's right ONCE a month in my 55 gallon tank.

I've settled on this amount because I've done test using more, and using it often to see the results. 1/4 teaspoon once per month I found to be the right amount without any loss of plants, and livestock.


Azomite powder guaranteed analysis


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## BriDroid (Oct 7, 2012)

How is it's solubility in water? If I were to does 1/4 tsp dry, does it dissolve as quickly as other dry ferts or is it more like calcium sulfate, where it kind of sits around for a few hours?

I'm really tempted to try this out!


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

I dose it dry ever month, I just drop right into the current of the outflow from my canister filter and walk off. The current breaks it up, so I'd say it's like dosing other dry ferts. So far I have no complaints once I dialed in the right amount to dose, I had an Anubias Nana that went from 2" across leaf growth to 4" across and almost 8" long.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> I dose it dry ever month, I just drop right into the current of the outflow from my canister filter and walk off. The current breaks it up, so I'd say it's like dosing other dry ferts. So far I have no complaints once I dialed in the right amount to dose, I had an Anubias Nana that went from 2" across leaf growth to 4" across and almost 8" long.


 
do you have a picture of your tank you used it on?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I suspect that CSM+B is missing those elements because most are not essential for plant growth.

Chlorine is probably present in one of the salts used to make up one of the other components in CSM+B, something like CaCl2, so it is probably there.

Sodium, cobalt, silicon and selenium can be beneficial to some plant species but they are not essential or even necessary for growth.

Rubidium and vanadium, are not even beneficial for most plants and they are not essential. So you don't need to worry about a vanadium deficiency 










From:
http://www.soils.wisc.edu/~barak/soilscience326/listofel.htm


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Wouldn't buying a bottle of Flourish be the easy way to add those elements?


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

happi said:


> do you have a picture of your tank you used it on?


Here's my old 75 gallon high tech tank that I traded for a 100 gallon tank.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Zapins said:


> I suspect that CSM+B is missing those elements because most are not essential for plant growth.
> 
> Chlorine is probably present in one of the salts used to make up one of the other components in CSM+B, something like CaCl2, so it is probably there.
> 
> ...


 
we are still mising NIckel from csm+b which is highlited in green color, even though we can get away without adding other traces, i still think adding nickel would improve the csm+b. 

*Kekon *at APC talks about adding Nickel in the trace and it has proven to show postive results.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Possibly but the concentration of nickel you need for plants to be healthy is below 0.0001 ppm. This crazy low amount could come from virtually any source. Fish flake food, dust in the air, whatever gets past an RO membrane, residual amounts in your substrate. And as far as I know nickel is only used in that one enzyme in plants, so understandably the plants hardly need any at all.


See my research on the subject over at APC:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilizing/88403-trouble-farm-help-14.html#post661982


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> Azomite huh, I've been using it for the past 2 years lol. I've used it in planted tanks, shrimp tanks, even in a cichlid tank. Azomite powder helps to boost fishes immune system to fight off parasites, disease, as well as boost the overall growth. For shrimp it helps immune system as well, but also helps to strengthen their exoskeleton and boost overall growth.
> 
> For aquatic plants Azomite supplies a mineral rich additive, helps to boost the plants ability to fight off parasites, and gives great overall growth.
> 
> ...


Please share ANY sources that promote this powder as boosting fishes immune system,increased growth of fishes ,treatment or preventitive for parasites.
Or are these just your observation's? :confused1:


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## WendyF (Sep 19, 2013)

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> I dose it dry ever month, I just drop right into the current of the outflow from my canister filter and walk off. The current breaks it up, so I'd say it's like dosing other dry ferts. So far I have no complaints once I dialed in the right amount to dose, I had an Anubias Nana that went from 2" across leaf growth to 4" across and almost 8" long.


Thank you so much for chiming in with your experience! I'm very excited to try out the sample Azomite a nice guy at my LFS gave me. What he gave me in granules & you say you use a powder - would you grind it up before dry dosing? I really appreciate you sharing your history with this stuff. :help:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Ni is proven results in planted tanks? Really? Forget light intensity and CO2, it's all about some hyper minor trace? I agree with what Zapins stated. This would be incredibly difficult to demonstrate for a researcher, let alone a hobbyists. 

CMS does fine, I think finding another product or source is fine also, *particularly if it is cheaper and more available.* If it has these other minor minor traces just to be sexy, well hunky dory. 

I've yet to find any plant species that I cannot grow quite well using CMS.
In fact, I have long offered challenges to others making such claims for various nutrients, ppm's and I've never lost yet after 20 years now. Name the plant that has trouble specific to these traces and is improved by this?
You need to be able to state this, otherwise it's pie in the sky and you have no clear hypothesis to test.

So the real issue is one that offers another product that is similar, does the same type of job and is cheap/more available etc. I'm on board there. The rest is speculation/wishful thinking I would argue.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Still waiting for any sources that promote this trace mineral powder,in the boosting of fishes immune system,increased growth,or as preventitive /treatment against parasites,disease.(I nearly spit up).
I have some miracle mud that will make you look ten year's younger. Don't mind the manure smell.


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

roadmaster said:


> Please share ANY sources that promote this powder as boosting fishes immune system,increased growth of fishes ,treatment or preventitive for parasites.
> Or are these just your observation's? :confused1:




Proof of Azomite use... Disregard the "algae" part of the video, because in powder form Azomite *does not * increase algae in aquariums.






So are you done with being "that guy"?


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

...lawn chair.....pop corn......


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Supposed weight gain could have been from the lead in azomite.(say's with chuckle).
Fish pictured on control feed before azomite,looked emaciated, and would indeed in my view be more suceptible to disease,parasites.
Enter miracle grow feed, (or any other feed)fatten em up,,and stronger immune system. less disease.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Lets not turn this into one of those threads. I'm sure there is some benefit to using this in aquaculture the same way kelp meal is used or why would these fish/shrimp farms use it. I agree with Tom in the fact that these minor trace elements are not that important but for me it's all about trying to find a cheaper alternative for dosing and the fact that it's natural is a bonus for me.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Ni is proven results in planted tanks? Really? Forget light intensity and CO2, it's all about some hyper minor trace? I agree with what Zapins stated. This would be incredibly difficult to demonstrate for a researcher, let alone a hobbyists.
> 
> CMS does fine, I think finding another product or source is fine also, *particularly if it is cheaper and more available.* If it has these other minor minor traces just to be sexy, well hunky dory.
> 
> ...


Tom i have never claimed that we need to have those Traces, CSM+B works fine i have already stated it in my post, if things can improve it further why not try it, if Nickel have no effect on plant growth then why does Seachem Flourish Trace uses it? i have seen other traces don't use it beside seachem, could this be because seachem uses Urea in their Nitrogen? Nickel is beneficial when you use NH4/Urea Nitrogen. i could be wrong on whatever i have said but Kekon at APC have added it and he claim it does help the plant. 

i cannot confirm his claim because i haven't tried it yet, until then we should wait.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I have much respect for kekon. He used to make his own micros from the ground up rather than using premade products. Can you link the thread where he talks about adding Ni?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Zapins said:


> I have much respect for kekon. He used to make his own micros from the ground up rather than using premade products. Can you link the thread where he talks about adding Ni?


Quote from *Kekon*



> Together with my friend we decided to dose plain urea in our tanks as a source of nitrogen. Personally i dosed about 0.5 ppm of N from urea. After a week new leaves were about 2 times bigger than normal ones. No algae appeared. Nitrates level stayed almost unchanged during the experiment (i didn't dose NO3 but only urea). It showed that plants preferred urea over NO3. No other parameters were changed (micros, PO4, Ca, Mg etc. weren't changed). We also added some nickel into water (NiCl2 * 6H2O) as it seemed plants needed nickel to produce urease to convert urea. I don't have any photos yet but i'll run the experiment once again to confirm my experiences and take some photos of my plants.


 he talks about benefits of using Nickel when dosing with Urea or Seachem nitrogen, in my case this is important because i dose heavy Urea in my tank, you can look at my thread in my signature. he never said we have to use Nickel, but its useful while dosing Urea, here is the link:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...sions/35396-how-my-own-micro-macro-ferts.html


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

ua hua said:


> Lets not turn this into one of those threads. I'm sure there is some benefit to using this in aquaculture the same way kelp meal is used or why would these fish/shrimp farms use it. I agree with Tom in the fact that these minor trace elements are not that important but for me it's all about trying to find a cheaper alternative for dosing and the fact that it's natural is a bonus for me.


 
Azomite that they used as feed supplement according to ingredient list on video, made no mention of lead,mercury,arsenic, that appear's on list of ingredient's if you just google content of the azomite.
I think this makes sense,not many folk's want to eat fish/shrimp that have ingested the lead,mercury,arsenic.
Maybe is different formula for plant's,crops,than what is used in video as feed supplement or...they convienently left out the lead,mercury,arsenic.
My brother has some of the azomite left, and while I might give it a go in plant only tank in the future,,I don't think I will risk trying it with my fishes,shrimp's no matter how miniscule the proportion of offending ingredient's.


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## jynn (Dec 9, 2016)

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> Azomite huh, I've been using it for the past 2 years lol. I've used it in planted tanks, shrimp tanks, even in a cichlid tank. Azomite powder helps to boost fishes immune system to fight off parasites, disease, as well as boost the overall growth. For shrimp it helps immune system as well, but also helps to strengthen their exoskeleton and boost overall growth.
> 
> For aquatic plants Azomite supplies a mineral rich additive, helps to boost the plants ability to fight off parasites, and gives great overall growth.
> 
> ...


will it be sufficient to just use azomite the amount you mentioned in a planted tank without other ferts? i have a friend who distributes this throughout asia and almost all shrimp farmer uses this. will like to try this out as im able to get them cheap from him if it works


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