# Low Tech Substrates



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I know what substrates work for me in low tech tanks, but so far I have only tested Schultz Aquatic Soil and Leonardite/dusting of peat moss/mulm capped with Seachem Onyx Sand. 

As there is a possibilty that I may set up another low tech tank 10 gallon tank to test another substrate, I am just curious as to what substrates people are using in their low light, low tech tanks. 

Please take a minute post what kind of substrate that you are using along with the plants that are fluorishing in them. Please also post how long your tank has been in operation, if you do any water changes(how frequent and how much water you replace), inject any c02 or use Seachem Excel or both, types of fertilizer and amounts you use, watts of light you have, size of tank, and what types of fish/shrimp you have. .All experiences positive and negative welcome. Feel free to post a picture of your tank if you wish. Many thanks to all that respond.


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## Cheesehead Cory (Mar 30, 2007)

That's a pretty big RFI there, Homes! Most of what you asked is in the profile of my 33g with Michigan dune sand over flourite. I don't have experience with other substrates to do a comparison, but so far everything I planted in it (everything that my CAE leaves alone anyway) has taken to it pretty well.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/786-Cheesehead Cory.html


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Cheesehead Cory said:


> That's a pretty big RFI there, Homes! Most of what you asked is in the profile of my 33g with Michigan dune sand over flourite. I don't have experience with other substrates to do a comparison, but so far everything I planted in it (everything that my CAE leaves alone anyway) has taken to it pretty well.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/786-Cheesehead Cory.html


That is an absolutely awesome tank CC :thumbsup: Thanks for sharing.




Cheesehead Cory said:


> That's a pretty big RFI there, Homes!...


Yes, you are right  That may explain a lack for responses. Okay perhaps if I restate, others may be more motivated to post.

Okay, for others viewing this and if it applies, please post what kind of low tech substrate you use and how you like it with re: good plant growth. Thanks


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

I have been growing some Ceylon Hygro, Sword Plants, and Onion Plant in regular gravel. They had also been grown in Horticulture sand. They both had shown me good growth for less then 1 wpg on a 29g tank


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

James From Cali said:


> ....grown in Horticulture sand. They both had shown me good growth for less then 1 wpg on a 29g tank


Thanks James. This is why I like to look at peoples' exprience. Some people state that you should never grow plants in substrate that has less than 1 mm grain size(I believe horticultural sand may be less than 1mm grain size) as the substrate will compact over time and roots will rot causing anaerobic/hydrogen sulphide pockets. You're experience is living proof that this may not be the case. 

I have the following on standby all waiting to be tested and wanted to see which one would be worthwhile testing first based on peoples' experiences.

Pool Filter Sand
Laterite
Soil master Select(Aquarium Plants own)
Black Fluorite Sand
Eco-Complete
Flora Base


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## susankat (Oct 14, 2007)

I've been using playsand for the last 4 years, And I grow a lot of plants with no problem.


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## MOsborne05 (Jan 7, 2007)

I have Tahitian moon sand in my tanks and I love it. I tried Flourite and Eco-complete, and IMO the plants grow best in sand. I didn't like the gray color of the Eco-complete though, which is why I opted for the moon sand. 

Here is the most recent pic of my tank.


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## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Thanks James. This is why I like to look at peoples' exprience. Some people state that you should never grow plants in substrate that has less than 1 mm grain size(I believe horticultural sand may be less than 1mm grain size) as the substrate will compact over time and roots will rot causing anaerobic/hydrogen sulphide pockets. You're experience is living proof that this may not be the case.
> 
> I have the following on standby all waiting to be tested and wanted to see which one would be worthwhile testing first based on peoples' experiences.
> 
> ...



The key is to have Malaysian trumpet snails keeping it stirred up. Like others it is not hard to grow plants in sand. Wild plants dont grow in gravel, do they? Most grow in sand or slit deposits!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

My long-standing (4 years) 10gal has 3" of Fluorite, plain and simple. I have a really nice carpet of E. tenellus in there; I'll have to steal my hubby's digital later and post some pics.

The 90gal I'm setting up (some day this century hopefully!!! LOL) will have:

1) bottom dusting of peat mixed with mulm from an established tank
2) 100lb of Eco Complete mixed with 50lb of ColorQuartz (cost-saving measure)


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## wearsbunnyslippers (Dec 6, 2007)

i have a thin layer of peat, some crushed vermiculite mixed in with tetra complete substrate, and a layer of river gravel on top of that...

i use kents super chelated iron, some sera fert tabs i push into the substrate every other week when i remember. i was using sera florabase, and tetra florapride depending on what was available as per the instructions on the bottles, and my plants always seemed to grow ok, but i battled with algae, i had gsa, gda, bga, clado and hair algae...

see my thread for progress

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/low-tech-forum/56864-my-20g-trim-56k.html

i then found flourish and flourish excel, and this has made a big difference, my plants are growing like weeds now and the algae is almost non existent, see from the posts from the 10th to the 25th to now. 

these are the plants that seem to do well in my tank:

limnophila sessiliflora - ambulia
echinodorus parviflorus - black amazon sword?
cabomba pulcherrima - purple cabomba
nymphaea sp. 'rubra' 
hygrophila difformis - water sprite or wisteria
hygrophila corymbosa - temple plant, starhorn or giant hygro
lilaeopsis brasiliensis - brazilian microsword
hydrocotyle leucocephala - pennywort
anubias barteri var. nana - still get algae on the leaves
microsorum pteropus - java fern
echinodorus amazonicus - amazon sword

i do between 25% - 50% water changes once a week, depending on if i've been replanting and stirring things up, its a 20g tank that has been running for a year now. i have two 20w 10000k jebo tubes on for 8hrs a day. my water is about 28/29 degrees celsius, a bit warm for some plants but it has to be that warm for the discus.

i have discus that have doubled in size since i got them about 6 months ago, i have clown loaches, cardinals and white clouds and havent had a death yet.

for my new tank i will be using some peat underneath flourite.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ok here's pics. Forgive my lousy photography skills? The only plant actually in the substrate is E. tenellus. This tank is not 'scaped at all- the plants are where they fell. I do need to plant the stems soon, maybe I'll get motivated this weekend  

Also in the tank are flame moss, pellia, java ferns, and some threads of java moss must have hitchhiked in as I've started pulling those out over the past few weeks. This tank receives absolutely no dosing at all. The carpet was grown under a standard fluorescent 18watt 10000k strip. About a month ago I upgraded to a 24watt CF fixture, and I have seen an increase in plant growth. I'm sure there would be more growth if I dosed Excel and ferts, but I'm happy as things are ATM.

Livestock are a colony of RCS (no idea how many), 2 amano shrimp, 2 cory cats, and 1 clown pleco. All livestock but the RCS will eventually be moved into my 90gal.


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## xNinja (Mar 16, 2008)

I chose Eco-Complete for mine based on some good reviews I heard...and you don't have to rinse it. Ha, that's pretty bad laziness, eh? Well, the tanks only a few days old so I can't really say how well the plants are doing at this point. The only downside about it is that I like the look of a black substrate, this is mostly different variations of brown/sienna brownish (a tad 80's).


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## redfalconf35 (Feb 24, 2008)

I'm actually running on normal aquarium gravel right now (and really low lighting), but the plants seem to be doing alright (hygro, crypts, amazon sword)... It's definitely not my favorite substrate, but in a pinch it seems to work.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

lauraleellbp said:


> Ok here's pics. Forgive my lousy photography skills? The only plant actually in the substrate is E. tenellus. This tank is not 'scaped at all- the plants are where they fell. I do need to plant the stems soon, maybe I'll get motivated this weekend
> 
> Also in the tank are flame moss, pellia, java ferns, and some threads of java moss must have hitchhiked in as I've started pulling those out over the past few weeks. This tank receives absolutely no dosing at all. The carpet was grown under a standard fluorescent 18watt 10000k strip. About a month ago I upgraded to a 24watt CF fixture, and I have seen an increase in plant growth. I'm sure there would be more growth if I dosed Excel and ferts, but I'm happy as things are ATM..


Very nice looking tanks lauraleellbp. Thanks for sharing. Unfortunately, regular fluorite is off my testing list. I have already tested fluorite side by side against Schultz Aquatic Soil and quite honestly, with all things being equal, I did not see a big enough difference to justify paying $38 for a bag of fluorite when I could get the same plant growth using the same size bag of Schultz Aquatic Soil for $7.00. Fluorite black sand may be a different story. The Seachem Onyx Sand performed better for me than either the regular fluorite and Schultz Aquatic soil which tempts me to test fluorite black sand just out of curiosity.


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## KatjaT (Jan 14, 2008)

I'm useing fine sand (0,2-0,7mm) in my tank. Plants are in 390L:
_Echinodorus cordifolius, E.'Aflame', E.'Ozelot', E.'Spidernet', E.'Paul Kloecker', Ludwigia arcuata, L.repens x arcuata, L.inclinata var. verticillata 'Cuba', Heteanthera fosterifolia, Limnophila aromatica, Helanthium tenellum _and _bolivianum, Glossostigma elatinoides, pogostemon helferi_and _Micranthemum umbrosum._ 
The light is Arcadia Overtank T5 4x54W, plants are doing well, no need anything special for subsrate. I use root tabs and Tetra InitialSticks for ferts in sand.

(Ps. sorry for my english)


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

There are many sediments that work very well.

Years ago, actually decades now..........the term "dirty sand" was used a lot.
This was ideal for plants. Generally folks waited 1-2 years before the sand was ripe for plants.

So what accumulated over that time?
A stable cycle and pool of nutrients and bacteria in the sediment. Lots of "mulm".

You may use virtually any sediment, but the preferences will go to SMS, flourite and so forth vs sand. The differences are really more defined by the fish load and waste generated in many systems rather than the sediment after a few months pass.

In nutrient rich sediment, eg garden soil, loam, wetland clays topped with sand, or just ADA aqua soil etc, these have plenty of nutrients from the start and last several years easily, at which point you have enough fish and plenty of plants to carry the function along without replacing the sediment.

I think given an option, the nutrient rich method is pretty easy as long as you do not make a mess. 

ADa AS makes the mess factor go way down, but it is general used by the CO2 snobs and within the CO2 snobs, there's even another layer nested within that group called ADA snobs, they would never think about using anything less than ADA's full line and CO2 enrichment.

Which is really counter to the entire goal on many planted aquarist and all the poetry, most natural systems are like the non CO2 tank and the ease of care leads to a much higher rate of success.

Still, gardening skills can be honed and you can do some really nice tanks without the CO2. It takes longer.

The other semi method is using soil/ADA AS etc, and Excel+ a good fish load.
You can likely go a month between changes and trim very little, no algae etc and you can grow most every plant.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> ...The other semi method is using soil/ADA AS etc, and Excel+ a good fish load.
> You can likely go a month between changes and trim very little, no algae etc and you can grow most every plant.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Good stuff Tom, thanks for the explanation and clarification. So would it make sense set up a low tech tank using Aquasoil and Excel instead of c02 injection? What is your experience? I wanted to set up a low light tank using ADA Aquasoil but was afraid that without high light and c02 it would fail. My fear was the too much nutrients from the Aquasoil would leach into the water column and since nutrient uptake by plants would be lower due to low light and no c02, I feared than an excess build up of nutrients in the water column would harm the fish. Thanks


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Homer_Simpson said:


> Good stuff Tom, thanks for the explanation and clarification. So would it make sense set up a low tech tank using Aquasoil and Excel instead of c02 injection? What is your experience? I wanted to set up a low light tank using ADA Aquasoil but was afraid that without high light and c02 it would fail. My fear was the too much nutrients from the Aquasoil would leach into the water column and since nutrient uptake by plants would be lower due to low light and no c02, I feared than an excess build up of nutrients in the water column would harm the fish. Thanks


Yes, excel + ADA AS is a nice combo.
If you think about it, for a 20 Gal tank, there's a lot of options you can do.
2x24W T5's(or 1 X 24W), and you can grow most anything you want, lots of the so called harder red plants etc, any foreground plant, any scape design you might have in mind.

You can also do the dry start method(works with soil/muds etc) and let things fill in, then flood the tank.
This basically mineralizes the NH4 to NO3 and starts a serious bactreria colony.

As no water changes are part of the downfall in a way for non CO2 approaches(say if you have higher fish loads), Excel allows you to go either way.

So you can or not bother.

ADA AS or garden soil muds etc, all can be pre mineralized by soaking for a 2-3 weeks prior to use. The other thing you can do is add Zeolite, which will remove the NH4 for you for about 1 month and at which time, most of the NH4 is removed, this is good for non CO2 methods using soils.

So you have bacteria, you have Excel+ water changes, Zeolite and more options. More options are good as they allow us to help folks better and reach more goals.

We should not be snobs towards CO2, Excel or non CO2, or Marine planted tanks. We should enjoy and try them all.

You can do scapes or just grow weeds with any of these method routines.

Regards, 
Tom barr


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

(sigh I can't believe I'm about to ask a chem question...)

Tom can you explain the process behind this? I've never heard of it before:



> You can also do the dry start method(works with soil/muds etc) and let things fill in, then flood the tank.
> This basically mineralizes the NH4 to NO3 and starts a serious bactreria colony.


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## wearsbunnyslippers (Dec 6, 2007)

its the whole emmersed setup...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...d-start-up-algae-free.html?highlight=emmersed


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm familiar with emersed setups, and just read the thread (all 17 pages! :icon_eek: lol), what I'm really trying to understand (and the thread didn't answer, or I missed it) is the chemistry behind mineralization? And how that boosts N-bacteria colonization? 

*



This basically mineralizes the NH4 to NO3 and starts a serious bactreria colony.

Click to expand...

*


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

you might have more luck searching "nitrification," which is just the microbial conversion of ammonium to nitrate.

see for instance:
http://www.esf.edu/efb/schulz/Limnology/Nitrogen.html

I haven't done emmersed nor read the thread, but I am assuming since you are applying N fertilizer, you jump start the cycle feeding the bacteria via nitrification; and since it is emmersed, you are not worried about the ammonia levels whereas they would be a concern (for livestock and with algal issues) were everything submerged for grow out. Since above the substrate is dry, there is little opportunity for algae to compete with plants and bacteria (in the substrate).


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

That was exactly what I was looking for - I was letting the word "mineralization" throw me, thinking that some other process was involved- thanks for the link!!


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## Joetee (Mar 28, 2006)

I have a 50 gallon with plain gravel in it which I don't like. This is a low tech tank with plants, rocks, & fish. I will have 130 watts of CF lighting, 6700k.
I add small amounts of ferts once a week and Excel daily. I have been doing 25% water changes every 2 to 3 days because the tank is still cycling. It has 2 HOB filters which do a good job of keeping the water moving.
Ammonia has been staying around .25ppm now and Nitrite has been climbing.

I can't afford to go buy anything like substrate etc. right now so I just went down to a local creek and scooped up some soil from the edge.
Now what should I do with it? Should I add water to it and let it stand a while and then check the water parameters?
Should I flush it well with regular water?
should I add it to the top of the gravel?
Should I remove the gravel before adding it?
I suppose I need to remove the water from the tank before I add the soil to the tank being careful not to remove the mulm.

Thank you
Joe


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

IMO that's not something I'd personally risk- I'd be too afraid of introducing parasites and chemicals in my tank (agricultural/pesticide runoff, etc)


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## KurtG (Dec 10, 2007)

Well, I might have oversimplified it, "mineralization" is the first step where organic wastes are converted to inorganic forms- the ammonia. 

Going from ammonium to nitrate is the "nitrification" step most discuss. I don't know how much mineralization would initially happen in a "new" tank with most of the substrates used. 

Certainly you'd be building bacteria to run these cycles depending on the source of nutrients supplied. I think the key is that it is done isolated from algae having access to the same pool of nutrients.


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## Ozymandias (Jan 17, 2008)

basically what I'm trying in my 5.5 tank is peat topped with what was called river sand. the sand seems lighter than normal pool sand or play sand. It's almost like silt so i will see how it works out.


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