# sudiorca's non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank



## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

I have been posting about my 20 gal non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank on various planted tanks related groups of Facebook for almost 2 years now. I was asked by @Greggz several months ago to start my own thread but I was too lazy to do that. Finally I have decided to do so as several people have asked some interesting questions after @Greggz posted one of my tank's images last week in his own planted tank thread;








Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank (Aquarium Hobbyist...


Not surprised, although I did assume your were using heaters. I think the default for most is to use a heater to keep temps around 75-78, but I think in most cases it's not necessary and probably increases algae a bit. So do you think the poorer growth is from algae interference or the actual...




www.plantedtank.net





I setup my first planted tank in the summer of 2018. Intially I didn't add CO2 but I decided to supplement it with pressurized CO2 after couple of months. I also setup a simple 10 gal non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank caridina shrimps at the same time. Although I was more focused on the hightech tank that time but I started to notice that the plants in the shrimp tank were doing quite well. I was little surprised by it because some of the plants in my high-tech tank were struggling despite the fact that there is supplemented CO2. I was quite intrigued by this contrasting result and started reading in various planted tank forums, facebook groups, scientific papers and also discussed a lot with my lab mate who also had a low tech planted tank. I started to realize that stability is far more important than simply adding CO2 to a planted tank and slow but steady growth in non-CO2 supplemented tanks can also give decent results. Then I decided to setup another tank in 2019, mainly for shrimps but with lot more plants. I had only a year of experience with aquatic plants that time and I did a big mistake by adding only a handful of plants intially. There was no surprise that the tank was full of algae in no time and I was forced to use tap water for frequent and large water changes as I didn't have a ro-di unit back then and I was buying ro water from stores and also getting some from my lab. I added more plants and kept doing large water changes for 2-3 weeks. This helped a lot and slowly the tank started to look better and the plants were growing decently. I switched back to store bought distilled water and added some of the struggling plants such as Rotala wallichii and Ludwigia senegalensis from my high-tech tank out of desperation. To my surprise, they started to look much better compared to my high-tech tank and I kept adding more plants. It was still summer and the plants were growing okay, however I noticed a big difference in plant health, overall form and colors during winter. As a biochemist, I always think of temperature when conducting an enzyme assay. So this change in plant health during winter caught my attention. More I started to think about the relationship between solubility of gases, enzyme activity (plant metabolism), more I realized that temperature is a huge factor for non-CO2 supplemented tanks. That's exactly how I started my non-CO2 journey and I am still learning every day. I have 4 various sizes non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks right now. However, I will be posting images and details of my oldest running tank for now.

Here are the details of my tank along with some important factors ime that play crucial roles to keep a planted tank healthy for long time without pressurized CO2 injection.
I use ro-di water and remineralize with a commercial product Salty Shrimp GH+ which to get 0-1 dKH and about 6 dGH, pH - approximately 5.75. Most plants actually prefer lower KH (low pH) because lower KH means most of the available CO2 in the water will be present in the form of dissolved CO2 gas rather than bicarbonates in planted tanks based on the pH range. Although there are many plants which can use bicarbonates as source of carbon but it is energetically more costly for them to use it compared to dissolved CO2 gas. This is the reason why almost every single aquatic plant will use dissolved CO2 if it is present in the water rather than using bicarbonates (even if it is present in significant amount). Another issue with bicarbonates is that at higher concentration it does affect uptake of other nutrients by plants (I have read some scientific papers on non-aquatic plants that higher bicarbonates have negative impact on iron uptake mechanism).
I recently (2 months now) started using CaSO4.2H2O (20 ppm) and MgSO4.7H2O (10 ppm) because I removed the sensitive caridina shrimps from here. I haven't noticed any difference in terms of plant growth after changing remineralizer.

Very low water column nutrients (less than 5 ppm nitrate, phosphate not detected in API test kit), however I have not done any tests recently.

Substrate (approximately 3 inches deep) is ADA Amazonia light (as old as the tank), I added a thin layer of ADA Amazonia (original version) on top of the old substrate about 5 months ago. I do supplement the root zone with Ammonia containing root tabs every 1-2 months.

I also regularly use a commercial all in one liquid fertilizer (Nilocg ThriveS) which contains very small amounts of N and P but has a decent concentration of K, Fe and other micro elements except copper (this product is actually developed for Shrimps, although tiny amounts of copper won't harm them).

I also have light with decent PAR value (currently using Chihiros wrgb2 60 cm, Initially I was using the rgb model also by Chihiros). Most people tend to have very low lights in non-CO2 supplemented tanks. However it is quite beneficial to have medium even slightly high light if the tank conditions allow. Good amount of light means one less thing to worry about for the plants growing in sub-optimal conditions with low CO2. This allows the plants to focus more on putting their resources on CO2 uptake rather than spending some of that energy on light harvesting system.
There is also growing scientific evidence of photo-oxidation (sunlight - primarily UV but visible light also contributes) being one of the major causes of breakdown of dissolved organics in freshwater into simpler molecules (thus helping bacteria to decompose further to CO2) along with complete breakdown to CO2. Is this relevant to my tanks? maybe... I don't have any scientific evidence but I am pushing more than 150 PAR at the substrate level in majority of my tanks (3 out of 4, the 4th one is at 120+ PAR, as shown below) with minimal algae and I am not injecting pressurized CO2.

I do weekly 40% (approx) water change along with gently cleaning the substrate using turkey baster and hose.

The filter is an oversized hob (Aquaclear 70) which I now clean every two months ( I used to clean it every month).

I don't uproot the plants frequently in my non-CO2 tanks, I believe good root systems are very critical in non-CO2 tanks because some plants can absorb CO2 from the sediment CO2 (produced by decomposition of organic matter by soil microorganisms, root respiration etc.) and roots also keep the substrate oxygen rich when actively performing photosynthesis which helps those microorganisms in return.

I have also noticed that most plants in my non-CO2 supplemented tanks perform better in winter when the water temperature stays around low 70 F. I have seen many plants struggle during summer when water temperature increases close to 80 F. This I believe is due to lower solubility of gases such as O2 and CO2 in high temperatures along with higher metabolism rate of plants and microorganisms in summer.

Attached below are some pictures of my 20 gal tank.
The first image was made right after the setup on June 16, 2019.
Second image - Nov 26, 2019.
Third image - Feb 10, 2020.
Fourth image - Oct, 6, 2020.
Fifth and sixth images - Dec 24, 2021.
Seventh and following images showing some PAR values - Jan 7, 2022.

I will try my best to answer some of the questions asked by several smart people in the hobby in my later posts.
Feel free to ask more questions.
Thank you,
Sudipta.

Update : March 1, 2022.
I do understand that many people have a hard time believing the results I am showing. I don't think that I would have believed myself if someone had told me the same 3 years ago. However, it is my humble request to all of you to at least go through my entire post and if there is anything that I have said doesn't make any sense then please let me know. I will try my best to clarify any doubts. Although my planted tank journey only started in the summer of 2018, I have been keeping fishes and growing non-aquatic plants (primarily flowering plants and vegetables) since my childhood. I was always fascinated with every aspect of nature; insects birds, animals, fishes, plants and later microbes.

I welcome anyone who wants to know more about my background to check these two links; first one is more about my passion towards nature, particularly wildlife and the second one is the link for my Google scholar page (my scientific publications).
Thank you all for showing so much support.









A Bird’s-Eye View - Discovery Spring 2018 - Science


Sometimes, timing is everything. Had the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) contacted Utah State University alum Sudipta Shaw (Biochemistry, PhD’17) just a little sooner, he might be following his passion for wildlife photography as a vocation rather than an avocation.




www.usu.edu













Sudipta Shaw


Postdoctoral Associate, University of Minnesota - Cited by 537 - Biochemistry and Microbiology




scholar.google.com


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

More random images of the same tank.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

Yay, I'm glad you're starting your own thread! I asked my most pressing questions over at @Greggz's, but who is the lime green beastly plant in the center left in the front?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

ElleDee said:


> Yay, I'm glad you're starting your own thread! I asked my most pressing questions over at @Greggz's, but who is the lime green beastly plant in the center left in the front?


THIS

What is that?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

ElleDee said:


> Yay, I'm glad you're starting your own thread! I asked my most pressing questions over at @Greggz's, but who is the lime green beastly plant in the center left in the front?


Sorry about about the late response.
Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to see so much interest about my setup. I will try to answer all the questions to the best of my abilities soon.
I think you are referring to Rotala tulunadensis.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

sudiorca said:


> Sorry about about the late response.
> Yeah, I was pleasantly surprised to see so much interest about my setup. I will try to answer all the questions to the best of my abilities soon.
> I think you are referring to Rotala tulunadensis.


Thats it. It looks super happy in your tank. Really well done!


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Thats it. It looks super happy in your tank. Really well done!


Thank you for appreciation. 🙂


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Absolutely amazing health! That totally defies my understandings of planted tanks but clearly you are doing something right and I definitely agree with the stability thing. I would love to get my hands on that rotala tunuladensis, can I ask where you managed to find it?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I think that it's all in the temperature.

I’m trying to get my head around the reported values:

All CO2 in the water is dissolved. At a pH of 5.75, about 80% of the carbonate system species will be in the form of CO2, which leaves very little bicarbonate to generate more CO2. At what point is your pH 5.75? If you dose the Salty Shrimp to achieve a dKH level of 1, and your pH is still at 5.75, the CO2 level would have to be over 50ppm, which is impossible without pressurized CO2. When the pH is 5.75, what is your dKH and how do you measure such small values? Conversely, when your dKH is 1.0, what is your pH level? If we are generous and allow about 10ppm CO2, that 5.75 pH means that the dKH is going to be .2ppm. To constantly force any bicarbonate into CO2 form, pH has to be constantly lowered. This would require constantly adding bicarbonate and then adding an acid to force pH down, presumably by dosing both frequently (several times a day).

I suspect that most of your CO2 is being derived from the bacteria, but that amounts never exceed more than about 10ppm, just before lights come on. What is your photoperiod?

My best guess is that your plants are healthy, despite extremely high PAR/PUR values and low CO2 levels, simply because you have a cold tank. Like you, I’ve watched temperatures vary between 72-79 and can see dramatic changes in growth (healthy in the entire temp range, though). If cold temperatures counter high light in terms of growth rate, then the plants, being held back by cold temperatures, will not be pushed by the high light to grow. If they don’t grow, they won’t need large quantities of any nutrient, including CO2.

I also suspect that you have found a sweet spot for your CO2/PAR/PUR/temperature balance, where your particular level of CO2 (I’m guessing about 5-10ppm) is just enough at 70 degrees to handle the high light. For that reason, it becomes important to keep the carbonate species in the CO2 region and that means a pH below 6. Thus, pH is the critical controller.

In my case, I would not want temperatures below about 73 dF, because most tropical fish are under stress at colder temperatures and, subsequently, will struggle more with respiration, lose color, be less active. Shrimp are different, though, preferring these colder temperatures. I also support your findings on UV, as we know that high-end UV sterilizers do help with redox (which also helps livestock, not just BB).


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Following with rapt interest ⭐


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

Absolutely beautiful tank and I’m following now too. I also have run a low tech tank with high light. Very very different tank style as it was my betta tank, so I had the temperature at 78-80F, but I also experienced robust, healthy growth with no visible algae. I also used ADA Amazonia light. It was my first planted tank too funny enough. I wasn’t able to get my hands on a PAR meter, but I was running an ONF Flat Nano on it at full power, so I’m sure my PAR was at least around 80 on the substrate. 










As you’ve mentioned, dense planting is crucial to a low tech high light tank.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

puopg said:


> Absolutely amazing health! That totally defies my understandings of planted tanks but clearly you are doing something right and I definitely agree with the stability thing. I would love to get my hands on that rotala tunuladensis, can I ask where you managed to find it?


Thanks. I got the tulunadensis from a hobbyist. It shouldn't be that difficult to find in the US.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Deanna said:


> I think that it's all in the temperature.
> 
> I’m trying to get my head around the reported values:
> 
> ...


The pH stayed around about 5.75 for about a year after the setup, however it slowly started to go down with time (lowest measured pH was about 5.2 few months ago). I think extremely low KH coupled with accumulation and degradation of organic substances are responsible for slowly lowering the pH values. I have documented in the past that the pH increased during the photoperiod, suggesting depletion of CO2 by plants. The images below were made on Dec 22, 2020. The pH increased from 5.62 (before the lights turned on) to 5.84 (4 hours after the lights turned on). Total photoperiod time is 7 hours per day. 
As the pH value started to lower with the age of the tank, I noticed less of a change for a given day (very little difference between day and night pH). Although the plants are still growing as I have shown. 

I can't tell the exact KH value as the API test kit solution changes color after adding the very first drop of the solution which just means that the dKH is less than 1 but it can be anywhere between 0-1 (I don't know). I only remineralize the water once in a week during the water change. I don't think that bicarbonate is present in any significant amount which would provide CO2 by acidification, instead I agree with you that most of the CO2 is coming from the substrate (root respiration, bacterial metabolism etc.,). However, I have no idea about the exact amount. I can only tell whether the plants are growing or not.

The temperature doesn't stay around 70 for very long (probably a month during very cold weather), most of the time of the year it stays anywhere between 70-75 F (except couple of months during summer when it gets to about 80F or slightly higher). I did install an AC last summer which helped to keep the temperature below 78F even during the peak of summer. 

I think most plants that I am growing will be fine at lower PAR values around 60-80. However high PAR allows for deeper penetration of light which help the plants to grow more densely.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Freshfishguy said:


> Absolutely beautiful tank and I’m following now too. I also have run a low tech tank with high light. Very very different tank style as it was my betta tank, so I had the temperature at 78-80F, but I also experienced robust, healthy growth with no visible algae. I also used ADA Amazonia light. It was my first planted tank too funny enough. I wasn’t able to get my hands on a PAR meter, but I was running an ONF Flat Nano on it at full power, so I’m sure my PAR was at least around 80 on the substrate.
> 
> View attachment 1038450
> 
> ...


Thank you. Your tank is definitely looking healthy, very nice. Yes, high light is very helpful to achieve dense growth as more light can travel all the way to the bottom.


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

Wow, gorgeous tank. I'm envious of your success!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@sudiorca
Very healthy and clean, almost like a refined (cleaner) version of the Walstad Method where the substrate is key to increasing co2 content. The obvious takeaway here for me is the ability to grow more difficult plants without pressurized co2 which is a game changer. Also thanks for the great pics. Without them this conversation wouldn't be possible. 

You stated that you have an Aquaclear 70 on the tank which is rated at 300 GPH. Can you explain the significance of that size filter on this type of setup? Curious also how much surface tension is there, especially from the HOB? If the plants are getting co2 right from the substrate then the surface tension wouldn't matter as much in terms of co2 loss.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> @sudiorca
> Very healthy and clean, almost like a refined (cleaner) version of the Walstad Method where the substrate is key to increasing co2 content. The obvious takeaway here for me is the ability to grow more difficult plants without pressurized co2 which is a game changer. Also thanks for the great pics. Without them this conversation wouldn't be possible.
> 
> You stated that you have an Aquaclear 70 on the tank which is rated at 300 GPH. Can you explain the significance of that size filter on this type of setup? Curious also how much surface tension is there, especially from the HOB? If the plants are getting co2 right from the substrate then the surface tension wouldn't matter as much in terms of co2 loss.


Thank you for your appreciation 🙏. That's exactly my thoughts about this method of mine. I still can't grow for example Ammania pedicillata golden and Rotala tulunadensis properly for a good amount of time in my pressurized CO2 injected tank. However, I can grow these and several other so called difficult stem plants for several months even few years now in these systems without too many issues. They do get tip stunting occasionally in this tank but the severity is quite low compared to hightech tanks and the recovery chances are almost 100% in my experience.
I run the aquaclear 70 at its minimum setting. I don't know the exact gph value but the flow rate is quite decent as you can see in the YouTube video below (I was not able to insert the video directly here). This is one of the primary reasons why I am quite certain that the plants are mainly getting CO2 from sediment rather than atmospheric dissolution of atmospheric CO2.
Here is an old video which I made more than a year ago.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> @sudiorca
> Also thanks for the great pics. Without them this conversation wouldn't be possible.


This is key. Pontification without pics is generally useless. If Sudipta had approached me and TOLD me about these tanks instead of SHOWING me these tanks we would have never started up a conversation. Honestly I would not have believed it.

And the funny thing is even WITH pics there was a lot of suspicion that they weren't real from some well known folks in the hobby. Sudipta can confirm that I when I first introduced him and his tanks to Tom Barr he was highly, highly skeptical. He insisted he must be providing injected CO2. We had some very interesting discussions about these tanks and they continue even today. 

Much of the discussions have centered around a "what are we missing?" theme. This method does run counter to many of the commonly held beliefs about planted tanks. Is there something we are all missing here? 

And another question that comes up is about repeatability. Is this a reliable method that others can implement and achieve the same results?

Up until recently that answer was no. This tank was truly an outlier. I know personally I had never seen anything close to his success with a mix of what can generally be hard to grow plants in a non CO2 environment. But recently a friend of Sudipta's has posted some pics with similar success. That has made it even more interesting.

One other thing to take note of is the species of plants that will thrive in this environment. Is it a broad range? Is it a limited range? I don't know the answer to that. But I do suspect that like I have said many times over the years that Sudipta is keeping plants that "like the soup he is serving". I am guessing there is a subset of plants that would not do as well in a nutrient limited water column like this. Of course I could be wrong as this tank has contradicted many conventional thoughts. Hopefully Sudipta can expand on that sometime.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Low ph, cold water, low nutrient, high light, remineralized ro water. I am SUPER intrigued! Could some species of algae just not like the ph and cold? OR is there some compound in the remineralized water that is defeating algae? Golly, I think I want to try this kind of process. I have my 40 breeder which is currently just sitting as a holding tank for rice fish and a lily until my patio pond gets warm enough to re-introduce them to the outside. I might try my hand at going dutch in that. I can put a fan on the top to keep it cool during the summer. I now have a RODI system so I will be able to use that.

@sudiorca how often are you using ThriveS? Is it only after a water change? Or do you add more during the week? Also, are you dosing the amount listed on the package directions?

I am also interested in trying UV light on a tank. I know you are not doing it here, but your mention of it is also intriguing. I have regular screw in lightbulbs over my 120P tank and found online a 'near uv' 405nm bulb to replace one of those with. I think I will run that for a bit over the tank and see if I can get rid of some spot algae. This range is supposedly safe for humans and commercial use.... so maybe it will work?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Greggz said:


> This is key. Pontification without pics is generally useless. If Sudipta had approached me and TOLD me about these tanks instead of SHOWING me these tanks we would have never started up a conversation. Honestly I would not have believed it.
> 
> And the funny thing is even WITH pics there was a lot of suspicion that they weren't real from some well known folks in the hobby. Sudipta can confirm that I when I first introduced him and his tanks to Tom Barr he was highly, highly skeptical. He insisted he must be providing injected CO2. We had some very interesting discussions about these tanks and they continue even today.
> 
> ...


Thank you Gregg for your continuous support and encouragement. I completely agree with you regarding reproducibility of results. As a scientist, I always crosscheck my own logic to make sure that my hypothesis is correct and even then I repeat one experiment several times, on different days to be absolutely sure about validity of results. Just to give you an example, I spent most of my time this month on one particular enzyme assay to establish the protocol, I don't even remember how many times I had to repeat the same experiment over and over. 
I pursue my hobby into planted tanks with the same approach. Let me tell you about this one particular incident almost 2 years ago, on my very first post in a Facebook group, Dennis Wong insisted that the plants were freshly transferred from a CO2 injected environment and they still have some of the energy stored from the previous environment and that's why the plants were looking vibrant. Although it was already several months (9 months) since I started this tank, I decided to completely uproot most of the plants from the background and only replanted the tops. The plants did take a long time to grow because of complete lack of root systems but eventually they looked no different in terms of vibrancy and form (not comparing to CO2 injected tanks though). I am still waiting to hear from him as he never commented on any of my posts afterwards. I should clarify it again that it is not possible to achieve the same coloration and form in these systems as compared to hightech tanks but it is absolutely possible to have a decent looking planted tank with good coloration and health for a reasonably long period of time ( little over 2.8 years so far).

I have been discussing with my friend and colleague Rakesh about planted tanks for more than 3 years now. He is the one, who suggested me to try adding two plants to this tank from the hightech tank as they were doing quite poorly there. I was very reluctant to try initially but eventually decided to try them out of desperation. Now, almost 2 years later, those two plants are still looking quite vibrant, those plants are _Rotala wallichii_ and _Ludwigia senegalensis_. Rakesh himself started couple of softwater non-CO2 tanks more than a year ago and both of his tanks are quite beautiful, he recently posted on Facebook about his tanks.

I am planning to prepare a list of plants that I have grown successfully in non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks (all 4 of my tanks including this one). Although I haven't been able to grow (thrive) few species of plants in these systems including most of the _Eriocaulon_ sp. and few plants but those belong to the minority when it comes to the species I tried. I will provide the complete list of plants soon.

Here are the pictures of some plants (when looked happy) grown in this tank:
_Ludwigia inclinata_ var. verticillata 'Pantanal' (more difficult to keep happy all the time but initially I was amazed to see it to even grow in this tank).
_Ludwigia inclinata_ var. verticillata 'Meta' (little bit easier to grow compared to Pantanal, I have seen similar behavior even in hightech tank, Pantanal being more difficult to Meta) 
_Ludwigia senegalensis _(quite easy to grow in these systems)
_Rotala tulunadensis _(moderately difficult to grow in these systems but behaves significantly better compared to hightech tanks)
_Rotala wallichii _(quite easy to grow in these systems)


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@sudiorca 
Thanks for all the info you've provided so far. Great pics BTW. I might have missed this, but when you speak of slow growth, how slow? For example the stems that you cut and replanted the tops. How long did it take for them to reach the top of the aquarium where you had to trim them again?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> @sudiorca
> Thanks for all the info you've provided so far. Great pics BTW. I might have missed this, but when you speak of slow growth, how slow? For example the stems that you cut and replanted the tops. How long did it take for them to reach the top of the aquarium where you had to trim them again?


These images will give you idea about the growth rate.
First three images were made on March 18, 2020, showing the amount of plant mass removed and how the tank looked after replanting the tops (mostly at the back)

Fourth image was made on May 9, 2020. I didn't trim any plants at the back.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

sm1ke said:


> Wow, gorgeous tank. I'm envious of your success!


Thanks, you should try this method, just test it with a nano tank first. You don't even have to use a dedicated expensive light, you can simply use 5000 or 6500k cfls or led lights (23 watts should be plenty if the light is 5-6 inches above the tank.


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Honestly the growth isnt as slow as I expected haha. Im amazed Pantanal is doing so well in your tank! Last time i tried that plant, I got a few stems from Tom, it seemed to be growing well for a week or so, it was super lanky, leaf node spacing was huge, and eventually died out. Maybe Ill try it again someday. 

So the substrate is 3 inches deep? That's definitely way more than how I usually run my tanks, which have only around an inch or less, unless the background where I use more.


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

sudiorca said:


> Thanks, you should try this method, just test it with a nano tank first. You don't even have to use a dedicated expensive light, you can simply use 5000 or 6500k cfls or led lights (23 watts should be plenty if the light is 5-6 inches above the tank.


I think I may give it a try with my 10g, or maybe set up a small tank at home to test.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

sudiorca said:


> Let me tell you about this one particular incident almost 2 years ago, on my very first post in a Facebook group, Dennis Wong insisted that the plants were freshly transferred from a CO2 injected environment and they still have some of the energy stored from the previous environment and that's why the plants were looking vibrant. Although it was already several months (9 months) since I started this tank,


I just had a long discussion with Xiaozhuang about your tank. I'll paraphrase and it goes right along with my conversations with Tom Barr about it and points I have brought up to you. The main issue is repeatability. Is this something that can be recommended with a reasonable chance of success? Both talk about trying to help people be successful in the hobby. Is this something that can help people be successful. I think the jury is still out on that. 

And that's why I hope exposure like this gets other people to try it. It would be a more compelling case if there were more examples of the same method producing the same results. And I think you know that too. 

As you know I myself find the results fascinating. And I have got to know you well enough that I believe you are describing your method accurately. The skepticism comes from the tank being such an outlier. 




sudiorca said:


> Here are the pictures of some plants (when looked happy) grown in this tank:
> _Ludwigia inclinata_ var. verticillata 'Pantanal' (more difficult to keep happy all the time but initially I was amazed to see it to even grow in this tank).


Now again you have my attention.

How long are you able to keep Pantanal in that condition??


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

sudiorca said:


> These images will give you idea about the growth rate...


I literally posted this at the exact time @Greggz did lol

Thanks much for the images. That really gives you a good feel for the growth. I too am surprised at the growth in that time frame. Curious if Barr and Wong have come around to embracing this as growth without co2 injection or any residual effect from a previous co2 environment


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> I literally posted this at the exact time @Greggz did lol
> 
> Thanks much for the images. That really gives you a good feel for the growth. I too am surprised at the growth in that time frame. Curious if Barr and Wong have come around to embracing this as growth without co2 injection or any residual effect from a previous co2 environment


They are both skeptical. Again goes back to repeatability. Both know hundreds/thousands of people who have effectively used their methods.

As Xiaozhuang said today, it's not close to anything he could recommend to anyone.

Also had an interesting conversation you might appreciate about EI dosing vs lean dosing and the feedback he gets from selling tens of thousands of bottles of APT. I'll get to that in my journal.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Low ph, cold water, low nutrient, high light, remineralized ro water.


When you look at it like that, @sudiorca's tank conditions aren't that hard to reproduce, especially for people deep into the hobby and already have the equipment and plants to test on hand. 

I know that YouTube personalities aren't held in the highest regard here, but MD Fish Tanks also does unorthodox low tech tanks. He seems to have a lot of light, a ton of hardscape, and I have seen him use very red Rotala macrandra stems like it was nothing - just said that it needs a lot of light. (Unless he's full of it, which is an idea I have entertained.) It's another data point to consider. It all just makes me think that the standard low tech "rules" need to be revisited, but that's going to take a lot of effort to do successfully. Obviously the "old rules" still work, but maybe there's money being left on the table.



Greggz said:


> Also had an interesting conversation you might appreciate about EI dosing vs lean dosing and the feedback he gets from selling tens of thousands of bottles of APT. I'll get to that in my journal.


I'm looking forward to that. I found his explanation of dosing regimes to be super helpful and I would love to hear his more recent thinking.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

ElleDee said:


> When you look at it like that, @sudiorca's tank conditions aren't that hard to reproduce, especially for people deep into the hobby and already have the equipment and plants to test on hand.
> 
> I know that YouTube personalities aren't held in the highest regard here, but MD Fish Tanks also does unorthodox low tech tanks. He seems to have a lot of light, a ton of hardscape, and I have seen him use very red Rotala macrandra stems like it was nothing - just said that it needs a lot of light. (Unless he's full of it, which is an idea I have entertained.) It's another data point to consider. It all just makes me think that the standard low tech "rules" need to be revisited, but that's going to take a lot of effort to do successfully. Obviously the "old rules" still work, but maybe there's money being left on the table.


I've seen the MD Fish Tanks and in my opinion they are not much like Sudipta's. In general he has more typical low tech easy plants with few exceptions. Nice and clean and well done well but no surprises. In general not focused on colorful stems. 

And I agree Sudipta's technique is not that hard to reproduce.........so how come nobody or very few are? That's the big question. 

Keep in mind I believe Sudipta is sharing legitimate results. But one or two examples is an outlier. Still it is very, very interesting and I enjoy following and trying to understand how it works.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

ElleDee said:


> When you look at it like that, @sudiorca's tank conditions aren't that hard to reproduce, especially for people deep into the hobby and already have the equipment and plants to test on hand.
> 
> I know that YouTube personalities aren't held in the highest regard here, but MD Fish Tanks also does unorthodox low tech tanks. He seems to have a lot of light, a ton of hardscape, and I have seen him use very red Rotala macrandra stems like it was nothing - just said that it needs a lot of light. (Unless he's full of it, which is an idea I have entertained.) It's another data point to consider. It all just makes me think that the standard low tech "rules" need to be revisited, but that's going to take a lot of effort to do successfully. Obviously the "old rules" still work, but maybe there's money being left on the table.
> 
> ...


MD Fishtanks has a couple of things going for him. 1) he tends to redo his tanks very rapidly. If you see some of his older tanks you will notice significantly more problems with them. 2) he actually has pretty low light in most of his tanks. Its hard to know for sure because cameras will auto adjust to make everything look pretty bright. BUT even when his camera is pointed right at his tanks, the rest of the room remains brightly lit, an indication the camera is not adjusting to keep the tank highlights from blowing out. Also he has mentioned a couple of times that he tries not to have overly bright lights, and spent one episode (that I will never find) going on about how he wants light that looks normal, but not too bright. I take this to mean he is running lower light tanks. And finally 3) he doesn't do a lot of close-ups of his tanks (especially his older tanks) and thus its really hard to see algae present. He has mentioned that he has algae in his tanks, but that it doesn't show up well on camera. In other words, I agree with Greggz that MDFishtanks is not comparable to the tank in this thread. I like MDfishtanks, because the amount of content he produces is crazy large, but he is definitely not the most advanced when it comes to the technical aspects of the hobby.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

minorhero said:


> Low ph, cold water, low nutrient, high light, remineralized ro water. I am SUPER intrigued! Could some species of algae just not like the ph and cold? OR is there some compound in the remineralized water that is defeating algae? Golly, I think I want to try this kind of process. I have my 40 breeder which is currently just sitting as a holding tank for rice fish and a lily until my patio pond gets warm enough to re-introduce them to the outside. I might try my hand at going dutch in that. I can put a fan on the top to keep it cool during the summer. I now have a RODI system so I will be able to use that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think that remineralizer is playing any role to combat algae (at least I am not aware of any such thing as of now). I do occasionally get algae and you should be able to see (bba on the dragon stone when the tank was not as crowded as now) in some of the images I posted. However, I have always found that it is quite easy to deal with algae in these systems compared to an imbalanced hightech tank. I simply spot dose algae using a freshly prepared mixture of Seachem Excel and 3% H2O2 (50-50), let it work for about 10 minutes and then perform water change. As I have mentioned earlier, I face more issues with plant growth during summer that also includes algae issues (close to 80F or higher water temperature). I did install an AC last summer and I faced very few problems except the time when I neglected (didn't perform timely water changes, trimming the plants etc.) two of my nano tanks for about a month and I got a massive spirogyra outbreak. I tried everything to get rid of that later including, lowering the light intensity, large and frequent water changes, trimming the affected plants, spot treating with excel-H2O2 mixture but nothing worked against spirogyra. So finally I decided to use API algaefix and followed the recommended dosage (I did remove all my shrimps from the tank before starting the treatment with algaefix). That treatment was 100% successful and it completely eradicated spirogyra from both the tanks and never came back. I resumed my regular weekly water changes and plants bounced back pretty quickly. I have witnessed this for several tanks now (at least for couple of years) that regular tank maintenance is extremely important during the summer months (if the tank temperature is nearing 77F or more). Frequent water changes will be very very beneficial during that time. It doesn't have to be large water changes but 15-25% water change every other day or so will do the trick. Plants will be very healthy and this will lower the chances of any algae outbreak as well.

You should definitely try this method but I will suggest to first try it on a smaller scale. The biggest I have tried so far is this 20 gal, so even I can't tell whether this method will work for a larger tank or not. I would love to try someday with a 40 or 75 gal tank but right now I am too busy and I don't have that much space in my current apartment.

I dose ThriveS 2-3 times a week (about 8-10 mL total in a week for the 20 gal tank).
I think the dosage recommendation is 1mL per 5 gal - 2-3 times (please double check this information). I have also mentioned that I add root tabs in the substrate every 1-2 months to keep the substrate enriched but I only add them on a regular basis under fast growing demanding stem plants. For the slow growing stems, I add root tabs every 3-4 months.

That will be interesting if you try UV. This is also something that I would like to try sometime in future.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

sudiorca said:


> I don't think that remineralizer is playing any role to combat algae (at least I am not aware of any such thing as of now). I do occasionally get algae and you should be able to see (bba on the dragon stone when the tank was not as crowded as now) in some of the images I posted. However, I have always found that it is quite easy to deal with algae in these systems compared to an imbalanced hightech tank. I simply spot dose algae using a freshly prepared mixture of Seachem Excel and 3% H2O2 (50-50), let it work for about 10 minutes and then perform water change. As I have mentioned earlier, I face more issues with plant growth during summer that also includes algae issues (close to 80F or higher water temperature). I did install an AC last summer and I faced very few problems except the time when I neglected (didn't perform timely water changes, trimming the plants etc.) two of my nano tanks for about a month and I got a massive spirogyra outbreak. I tried everything to get rid of that later including, lowering the light intensity, large and frequent water changes, trimming the affected plants, spot treating with excel-H2O2 mixture but nothing worked against spirogyra. So finally I decided to use API algaefix and followed the recommended dosage (I did remove all my shrimps from the tank before starting the treatment with algaefix). That treatment was 100% successful and it completely eradicated spirogyra from both the tanks and never came back. I resumed my regular weekly water changes and plants bounced back pretty quickly. I have witnessed this for several tanks now (at least for couple of years) that regular tank maintenance is extremely important during the summer months (if the tank temperature is nearing 77F or more). Frequent water changes will be very very beneficial during that time. It doesn't have to be large water changes but 15-25% water change every other day or so will do the trick. Plants will be very healthy and this will lower the chances of any algae outbreak as well.
> 
> You should definitely try this method but I will suggest to first try it on a smaller scale. The biggest I have tried so far is this 20 gal, so even I can't tell whether this method will work for a larger tank or not. I would love to try someday with a 40 or 75 gal tank but right now I am too busy and I don't have that much space in my current apartment.
> 
> ...


Thank you! I already ordered the bulb. Should be coming tomorrow. I'll post some updates in my 120P journal. I am hoping its effective in getting rid of some spot algae on my hardscape.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

puopg said:


> Honestly the growth isnt as slow as I expected haha. Im amazed Pantanal is doing so well in your tank! Last time i tried that plant, I got a few stems from Tom, it seemed to be growing well for a week or so, it was super lanky, leaf node spacing was huge, and eventually died out. Maybe Ill try it again someday.


So the substrate is 3 inches deep? That's definitely way more than how I usually run my tanks, which have only around an inch or less, unless the background where I use more.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't stop growing in this tank, however it also doesn't look pretty all the time. It looks the best when it gets close to the surface. I think I am pushing the system too much by trying these extremely fast growing stem plants. No matter how much I optimize the system, there is no denying that it can't match a pressurized CO2 injected tank. There is intense competition for CO2 among these hungry plants and there is a limit for how much can be achieved in these systems. It is better to have only a handful of these super fast growing plants in these systems, otherwise they will compete with each other which will negatively impact their own growth along with other fast growing plants. However, it is also true that except for few handful of stem plants, I can keep most of them relatively healthy in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks. 

yes the substrate is approximately 3 inches deep in this tank.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Greggz said:


> They are both skeptical. Again goes back to repeatability. Both know hundreds/thousands of people who have effectively used their methods.
> 
> As Xiaozhuang said today, it's not close to anything he could recommend to anyone.
> 
> Also had an interesting conversation you might appreciate about EI dosing vs lean dosing and the feedback he gets from selling tens of thousands of bottles of APT. I'll get to that in my journal.


I am so much thankful to you Gregg for continuously supporting my results. I know it looks too good to be true to see that some of these difficult plants can be grown in non-CO2 supplemented tank for a prolonged period of time. I was also not sure initially that it can be replicated, that's why I setup few other tanks with similar parameters and all of them are doing okay.
I have also mentioned that one of my friends has also replicated this method quite successfully. There are few more plant enthusiasts here in Minnesota who have recently setup similar tanks and very soon they should be able to show their results as well. 
Here are the other tanks that I am running with similar parameters.
Tank number 1 (10 gal) : Setup date - Jan 4, 2020 (more than 2 years now and my most neglected tank).
Tank number 2 (5 gal) : Setup date - March 1, 2021 (exactly 1 year as of today).
Tank number 3 (5 gal shallow) : Setup date - Oct 16, 2021 ( 4.5 months old, the newest of the setups, experimented with few new foreground plants and couple of them might not work for long time).


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

sudiorca said:


> I am so much thankful to you Gregg for continuously supporting my results. I know it looks too good to be true to see that some of these difficult plants can be grown in non-CO2 supplemented tank for a prolonged period of time. I was also not sure initially that it can be replicated, that's why I setup few other tanks with similar parameters and all of them are doing okay.
> I have also mentioned that one of my friends has also replicated this method quite successfully. There are few more plant enthusiasts here in Minnesota who have recently setup similar tanks and very soon they should be able to show their results as well.
> Here are the other tanks that I am running with similar parameters.
> Tank number 1 (10 gal) : Setup date - Jan 4, 2020 (more than 2 years now and my most neglected tank).
> ...


You have some really cool plants! What is that fan shaped plant in number 2 in the front?


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> I am so much thankful to you Gregg for continuously supporting my results. I know it looks too good to be true to see that some of these difficult plants can be grown in non-CO2 supplemented tank for a prolonged period of time. I was also not sure initially that it can be replicated, that's why I setup few other tanks with similar parameters and all of them are doing okay.
> I have also mentioned that one of my friends has also replicated this method quite successfully. There are few more plant enthusiasts here in Minnesota who have recently setup similar tanks and very soon they should be able to show their results as well.
> Here are the other tanks that I am running with similar parameters.
> Tank number 1 (10 gal) : Setup date - Jan 4, 2020 (more than 2 years now and my most neglected tank).
> ...


Honestly all of these are all I could ever want in a tank.

Is it possible that, since everyone ‘knows’ you ‘can’t’ do it this way, people just tend to not try? Are there other people who have been specifically aiming to do this same thing but not succeeding? 

I’ve only just started up in the hobby but the number of people who have told me I simply HAVE to run CO2 in order to get anywhere with plants is just overwhelming. Perhaps this is why we don’t have more tanks like these - most people would never try to set them up believing it a priori impossible?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

minorhero said:


> You have some really cool plants! What is that fan shaped plant in number 2 in the front?


Thanks. That is Xyris sp red (not very red here but gets dark brown almost like red in hightech tanks).


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Honestly all of these are all I could ever want in a tank.
> 
> Is it possible that, since everyone ‘knows’ you ‘can’t’ do it this way, people just tend to not try? Are there other people who have been specifically aiming to do this same thing but not succeeding?
> 
> I’ve only just started up in the hobby but the number of people who have told me I simply HAVE to run CO2 in order to get anywhere with plants is just overwhelming. Perhaps this is why we don’t have more tanks like these - most people would never try to set them up believing it a priori impossible?


You are absolutely correct about this. My thoughts were pretty much the same almost 3 years ago that all the colorful and more delicate plants need pressurized CO2 injection to thrive in planted tanks. That's the reason I was quite reluctant to even try _Rotala wallichii _and _Ludwigia senegalensis_ in non-CO2 supplemented tanks even when they were consistently struggling to survive in my high-tech tank. I mentioned this in my original post that how I finally decided to try it because of my friend who insisted that there is nothing to loose as those plants were almost dead in my high-tech tank. 
I am not saying that these plants will grow in any low-tech tank and there are several factors (mentioned in details in my original post) which need to be fulfilled to achieve this. 
However, I have found that most plants are far more forgiving than what we think when provided a stable environment.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> You are absolutely correct about this. My thoughts were pretty much the same almost 3 years ago that all the colorful and more delicate plants need pressurized CO2 injection to thrive in planted tanks. That's the reason I was quite reluctant to even try _Rotala wallichii _and _Ludwigia senegalensis_ in non-CO2 supplemented tanks even when they were consistently struggling to survive in my high-tech tank. I mentioned this in my original post that how I finally decided to try it because of my friend who insisted that there is nothing to loose as those plants were almost dead in my high-tech tank.
> I am not saying that these plants will grow in any low-tech tank and there are several factors (mentioned in details in my original post) which need to be fulfilled to achieve this.
> However, I have found that most plants are far more forgiving than what we think when provided a stable environment.


Stability definitely seems to be the key. We tend to all want fast results and nature doesn’t always want to comply... 

Do you have any idea why the plants were struggling in your high tech setups? Their metabolism wasn’t suited to the abundance of stimuli?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Stability definitely seems to be the key. We tend to all want fast results and nature doesn’t always want to comply...
> 
> Do you have any idea why the plants were struggling in your high tech setups? Their metabolism wasn’t suited to the abundance of stimuli?


I think the biggest issue back then was my inexperience in growing aquatic plants. Although I have been growing non-aquatic plants (mainly flowering plants and vegetables) since I was a little kid but I started my first planted tank in the summer of 2018. However, there was another issue regarding a particular family of plants called Lythraceae, members of which are quite popular in planted tank hobby because of their form and color. Two of most common genus under this family are _Rotala_ and _Ammania_. There are several species of these two genus that are quite difficult to grow even in the most sophisticated hightech tank and only few handful of skilled aquarists have been able to grow them successfully for longer period of time. Two of the primary reasons why these plants struggle are high organics and high KH (this is especially a big problem if the water column has a lot of nutrients which is quite a common practice nowadays among people who want to get fast, more robust and vibrant looking plants in hightech environment). I don't think that the actual physiological reasons are known till date but if you are interested then you can go through this very popular thread about this topic by Vin Kutty.








Rotala Kill Tank


ROTALA KILL TANK Starting a new journal to document experiments on Lythraceae family of plants. Lythraceae include Rotala, Ammannia, Nesaea, Didiplis, and Cuphea. Those of you who have followed my other journal are familiar with the struggle that I (and countless others) have had with this...




barrreport.com


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> I think the biggest issue back then was my inexperience in growing aquatic plants. Although I have been growing non-aquatic plants (mainly flowering plants and vegetables) since I was a little kid but I started my first planted tank in the summer of 2018. However, there was another issue regarding a particular family of plants called Lythraceae, members of which are quite popular in planted tank hobby because of their form and color. Two of most common genus under this family are _Rotala_ and _Ammania_. There are several species of these two genus that are quite difficult to grow even in the most sophisticated hightech tank and only few handful of skilled aquarists have been able to grow them successfully for longer period of time. Two of the primary reasons why these plants struggle are high organics and high KH (this is especially a big problem if the water column has a lot of nutrients which is quite a common practice nowadays among people who want to get fast, more robust and vibrant looking plants in hightech environment). I don't think that the actual physiological reasons are known till date but if you are interested then you can go through this very popular thread about this topic by Vin Kutty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks I’ll read that with interest!! It’s fascinating to me to consider that gluttony might be hurting our aquarium plants and that fasting might do them good 😅


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

I do understand that many people have a hard time believing the results I am showing. I don't think that I would have believed myself if someone had told me the same 3 years ago. However, it is my humble request to all of you to at least go through my entire post and if there is anything that I have said doesn't make any sense then please let me know. I will try my best to clarify any doubts. Although my planted tank journey only started in the summer of 2018, I have been keeping fishes and growing non-aquatic plants (primarily flowering plants and vegetables) since my childhood. I was always fascinated with every aspect of nature; insects birds, animals, fishes, plants and later microbes.

I welcome anyone who wants to know more about my background to check these two links; first one is more about my passion towards nature, particularly wildlife and the second one is the link for my Google scholar page (my scientific publications).
Thank you all for showing so much support.









A Bird’s-Eye View - Discovery Spring 2018 - Science


Sometimes, timing is everything. Had the Wildlife Institute of India (WII) contacted Utah State University alum Sudipta Shaw (Biochemistry, PhD’17) just a little sooner, he might be following his passion for wildlife photography as a vocation rather than an avocation.




www.usu.edu













Sudipta Shaw


Postdoctoral Associate, University of Minnesota - Cited by 537 - Biochemistry and Microbiology




scholar.google.com


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

sudiorca said:


> I do understand that many people have a hard time believing the results I am showing. I don't think that I would have believed myself if someone had told me the same 3 years ago. However, it is my humble request to all of you to at least go through my entire post and if there is anything that I have said doesn't make any sense then please let me know. I will try my best to clarify any doubts. Although my planted tank journey only started in the summer of 2018, I have been keeping fishes and growing non-aquatic plants (primarily flowering plants and vegetables) since my childhood. I was always fascinated with every aspect of nature; insects birds, animals, fishes, plants and later microbes.
> 
> I welcome anyone who wants to know more about my background to check these two links; first one is more about my passion towards nature, particularly wildlife and the second one is the link for my Google scholar page (my scientific publications).
> Thank you all for showing so much support.
> ...


To be clear - your thread was not deleted. It was caught in our forum's spam filter because this specific post contained two external links. Combined with an IP address you've used that was also used by a spam network, it got caught.

If something like this happens in the future, you've got to reach out to the moderation team so we can investigate.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Yay I knew it had to be a glitch! It’s back ⭐


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

somewhatshocked said:


> To be clear - your thread was not deleted. It was caught in our forum's spam filter because this specific post contained two external links. Combined with an IP address you've used that was also used by a spam network, it got caught.
> 
> If something like this happens in the future, you've got to reach out to the moderation team so we can investigate.


Thanks for letting me know. I will do that in future.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

Great original post - it identifies so much of what I am thinking about with my aquaria (natural light vs artificial, bacteria both good and bad with regard to plant growth, temperature effects etc...)

As someone who threw out the rule book a long time ago and is committed to non-CO2 injected plant propogation under water, I think our hobby is on the verge of a low-tech revolution of sorts. This doesn't mean that CO2 injection doesn't work - it does. As someone who doesn't keep fish, only plants, the consequences of dust-binning the rule book are not that bad. I can understand that the care of fish has other concerns which are valid - no argument there.

I am a heretic in our hobby - an outlier and happy to be so.

I think as aquarists we need to seperate 'observation' from 'theory'. Observation is what you see with your eyes. Theory is an attempt to then understand it - the basis of all science (except for the theoretical physicist - they work in reverse. They start with a theory and work in reverse They theorise and then try to observe the theory in the real world).

This fundamental problem of trying to explain what is going on means that the low-tech hobby really needs to just let the aquariums themselves do the talking, like the MD tank guy on youtube. I have watched some of his videos and I like where his mind is at, just like this post topic.

I have noticed that very high light intensity in my tanks (I can't speak for other peoples tanks) does not always mean algae problems, though high light levels and duration with liquid fertilisers = green water. I am aware of that problem.

The problem with our hobby right now as I see it is this: decades of high tech tank observation has led to a generation of 'theories' to explain this outcome. What if the theories are wrong (the rule books)? The outcome (the observation of Amano style tanks) is undeniable - everyone can see that. But the theories behind it (how plants grow underwater) I am deeply skeptical of.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> Great original post - it identifies so much of what I am thinking about with my aquaria (natural light vs artificial, bacteria both good and bad with regard to plant growth, temperature effects etc...)
> 
> As someone who threw out the rule book a long time ago and is committed to non-CO2 injected plant propogation under water, I think our hobby is on the verge of a low-tech revolution of sorts. This doesn't mean that CO2 injection doesn't work - it does. As someone who doesn't keep fish, only plants, the consequences of dust-binning the rule book are not that bad. I can understand that the care of fish has other concerns which are valid - no argument there.
> 
> ...


Yeah this is what I always wonder. Yep the co2, high light high ferts approach works, we can see it. But how many people specifically set out to do something different, with intention? You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take, so if everyone walking into the hobby gets told ‘ok so this is what you do’ and they do it, we don’t see other potential methodologies that might bring surprising results.

On the other hand, for most people aquaristics necessitate not using natural light, not using rainwater etc etc. We are creating an artificial environment because we have no access to the natural one. If you took a bit of lake mud, some lake plants, left the tank out in the sun and topped off with rainwater, is that still an aquarium or have you just borrowed a slice of lake? 

I’m fascinated by this boundary between an aquarium as an artificial space, but also a naturalistic one. We try to emulate the best parts of nature and build upon them- for example many captive species live shorter in captivity than in nature, but others live longer- having steady food, optimal conditions and safety from predators and the unpredictable elements...

I’d love to see more counterintuitive and surprising approaches to growing underwater plants (and critters), but I also get that since the price of failure is the death of your wards, many people prefer to do things the ‘correct’ way.


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## Anon (Mar 16, 2014)

sudiorca said:


> I do occasionally get algae and you should be able to see (bba on the dragon stone when the tank was not as crowded as now) in some of the images I posted.


Hi @sudiorca 

Your beautiful plants speak for themselves. It's exciting when someone achieves enviable results by taking a radically different approach, isn't it? Quite apart from your stunning plants, I find it very interesting that there is only a trivial amount of algae present. From experiments that I have done plus a good deal of reading from scientific resources, I was starting to home in on excess DOM in the water column as an important factor contributing to algae growth. It looks as if your plants are preventing this from happening. I would value your thoughts on this.

It must be very rewarding for someone with your academic/professional background to pioneer a new approach to the planted tank. 

Anon


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

@LidijaPN, if you go to my last low-tech thread you will see an actual natural biotope in an aquarium, exactly as you have described. The little diandrum tank is lifted from nature - the plant (five blades of grass was taken), the mud substrate, even the water. I simply top it off with rain water, give it 2 hours direct sunlight and keep it alive. What you are seeing is a 100% natural biotope confined in glass - taken from a private farm dam near where I live - not a natural waterway. Farm dams around where I live are colonised by natives. I think the ducks spread them around.

The larger diandrum tank is my own artificial creation using loam. I have learnt enough about glosso now to grow it in various mediums.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hank-J said:


> @LidijaPN, if you go to my last low-tech thread you will see an actual natural biotope in an aquarium, exactly as you have described. The little diandrum tank is lifted from nature - the plant (five blades of grass was taken), the mud substrate, even the water. I simply top it off with rain water, give it 2 hours direct sunlight and keep it alive. What you are seeing is a 100% natural biotope confined in glass - taken from a private farm dam near where I live - not a natural waterway. Farm dams around where I live are colonised by natives. I think the ducks spread them around.
> 
> The larger diandrum tank is my own artificial creation using loam. I have learnt enough about glosso now to grow it in various mediums.


Your tanks are extremely cool ♥ But I guess what I’m getting at is, I live in a tiny apartment, in the city, and one that’s completely snowbound between 4 and 6 months per year, so I can’t really use those types of approaches... I need to make some sort of peace between the natural and the artificial I suppose.


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## Hank-J (Nov 24, 2020)

LidijaPN, try Glossostigma Elatinoides. It likes cold water down to freezing. My elatinoide tank has just come out of winter and grew very well.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

All 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks that I have been maintaining for some time.
I made all of these images today using my cellphone.

Tank 1 - 20 gal; setup date - June 16, 2019.

Tank 2 - 10 gal; setup date - Jan 4, 2020.

Tank 3 - 4 gal; setup date - Mar 1, 2021.

Tank 4 - 5 gal shallow; setup date - Oct 16, 2021.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> All 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks that I have been maintaining for some time.
> I made all of these images today using my cellphone.
> 
> Tank 1 - 20 gal; setup date - June 16, 2019.
> ...


They’re all stunning!!! Any plants you’re struggling with?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> They’re all stunning!!! Any plants you’re struggling with?


Thanks. Most of the plants are doing okay. However there are few plants that do struggle sometimes. Ammania pedicillata golden occasionally gets stunted but everytime it comes back. All of the Ludwigia inclinata verticillata varieties (Pantanal, Cuba and Meta) do the same thing, right now Pantanal and Cuba are looking good but Meta is showing bigger leaves with long internodes. The carpets of Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' and Elatine hydropiper are growing quite slow (Elatine is much slower) but I am happy that they are spreading. Utricularia graminifolia is also doing okay but I do see quite a few leaves floating on the surface every day (still don't know the exact cause).


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> Thanks. Most of the plants are doing okay. However there are few plants that do struggle sometimes. Ammania pedicillata golden occasionally gets stunted but everytime it comes back. All of the Ludwigia inclinata verticillata varieties (Pantanal, Cuba and Meta) do the same thing, right now Pantanal and Cuba are looking good but Meta is showing bigger leaves with long internodes. The carpets of Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' and Elatine hydropiper are growing quite slow (Elatine is much slower) but I am happy that they are spreading. Utricularia graminifolia is also doing okay but I do see quite a few leaves floating on the surface every day (still don't know the exact cause).


So sometimes they stunt and then right themselves?

I have a pretty ordinary low tech tank, inert substrate, liquid fertilizer (Thrive), temperature around 25c, gH 6-7, kH 2-3.... Someone recently gave me a cutting of ludwigia meta... it’s growing but with much smaller leaves than before it came to my tank... I wonder if there is anything I can do for it? Probably not 😑









My rotala indica is also stunting but in a very weird way.... it was putting out teeeeny tiny leaves, then started growing really well when I increased ferts, then started stunting again even though ferts stayed the same... I really don’t know what to make of that...


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

sudiorca said:


> All 4 of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks that I have been maintaining for some time.
> I made all of these images today using my cellphone.
> 
> Tank 1 - 20 gal; setup date - June 16, 2019.
> ...


These are looking great! I really want to try this next chance I get. I like the last one the way you have air plants and emersed growth plus a fun wood background.


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## andeea01 (8 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> Thanks. Most of the plants are doing okay. However there are few plants that do struggle sometimes. Ammania pedicillata golden occasionally gets stunted but everytime it comes back. All of the Ludwigia inclinata verticillata varieties (Pantanal, Cuba and Meta) do the same thing, right now Pantanal and Cuba are looking good but Meta is showing bigger leaves with long internodes. The carpets of Hemianthus callitrichoides 'Cuba' and Elatine hydropiper are growing quite slow (Elatine is much slower) but I am happy that they are spreading. Utricularia graminifolia is also doing okay but I do see quite a few leaves floating on the surface every day (still don't know the exact cause).


When you first start the tank, how frequently are you performing water changes? Also, what light settings do you have your Chihiros WRGB2 set at?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

andeea01 said:


> When you first start the tank, how frequently are you performing water changes? Also, what light settings do you have your Chihiros WRGB2 set at?


I did couple of large water changes right after I setup the tank but after that I was just doing weekly water changes (which is really not ideal for newly setup tank with rich aquasoil, that's why I faced so many issues initially). I didn't want the substrate to loose its buffering capacity quickly, so I was not using the tap water (big mistake, now I know). It is better to do large and frequent water chnages intially for couple of weeks (tap water should be fine for that short duration). 
Current settings for the Chihiros wrgb2 are 100% red, 50% green and 70% blue.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> So sometimes they stunt and then right themselves?
> 
> I have a pretty ordinary low tech tank, inert substrate, liquid fertilizer (Thrive), temperature around 25c, gH 6-7, kH 2-3.... Someone recently gave me a cutting of ludwigia meta... it’s growing but with much smaller leaves than before it came to my tank... I wonder if there is anything I can do for it? Probably not 😑
> View attachment 1041340
> ...


Removing organics through water changes (including substrate cleaning) helps a lot when it comes to struggling plants in my tanks. However, I am using aquasoil in all of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

I have been doing a little experiment with Ammania pedicillata 'golden' in a small plastic container (no CO2 injection) since Jan 20, 2022.
The container was setup on Dec 22, 2021 with 2 inches of ADA Amazonia V1 and 600 mL of ro-di water and kept in dark to cycle.
I never added any water column fertilizer but inserted some ammonia containing root tabs about 3 months ago.
It has been more than 2 months since I have done any water change, only topping off with water from my other softwater tanks.
I did some measurements as can be seen from the other pictures. I also measured KH (0-1 dKH) and GH (16 dGH). API Phosphate test is not suitable for lower concentrations in my experience. Nitrate has been consistently around 50 ppm (Salifert kit) for more than a month now. High GH and nitrates are the reason for high tds but the plants are still doing fairly well (except some black dots on the lower leaves, I will add some root tabs soon).

Ammania pedicillata 'golden' along with some other problematic Lythraceae family members grow decently with fewer problems in all of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks. However, like most people, I struggle to keep these happy for extended period of time in my pressurized CO2 injected high-tech tank. I think the faster metabolism coupled with constantly fluctuating conditions in many high-tech tanks (including mine) are the main culprits. Stability is far more important than simply adding CO2 to the tank as I mentioned in my very first post.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> I have been doing a little experiment with Ammania pedicillata 'golden' in a small plastic container (no CO2 injection) since Jan 20, 2022.
> The container was setup on Dec 22, 2021 with 2 inches of ADA Amazonia V1 and 600 mL of ro-di water and kept in dark to cycle.
> I never added any water column fertilizer but inserted some ammonia containing root tabs about 3 months ago.
> It has been more than 2 months since I have done any water change, only topping off with water from my other softwater tanks.
> ...


Where is all that hardness coming from? What sort of light does it get?

It looks incredible!!!


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Where is all that hardness coming from? What sort of light does it get?
> 
> It looks incredible!!!


Thanks 🙂.
I haven't done any water change for more than 2 months as I mentioned above, only topping off with water from my other softwater tanks. All of my tanks have GH around 6dGH. This plant is a slow grower and is not using those extra Ca and Mg from the water column which has led to accumulate those minerals over time.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Where is all that hardness coming from? What sort of light does it get?
> 
> It looks incredible!!!


The primary light source is a cheap 16W (5000 K) led bulb. However, it is also getting some light from the Chihiros rgb (older version) as can be seen in the photo.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> Thanks 🙂.
> I haven't done any water change for more than 2 months as I mentioned above, only topping off with water from my other softwater tanks. All of my tanks have GH around 6dGH. This plant is a slow grower and is not using those extra Ca and Mg from the water column which has led to accumulate those minerals over time.


This happens with my growout bin so I’ve taken to doing an occasional water change with distilled water to bring the hardness down.... you plan to just let it rise? 

Though it’s true my plants seemed unaffected at 15.5 dGH and 11 dKH... but I felt in the long term it was safer to reduce them just in case...


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> This happens with my growout bin so I’ve taken to doing an occasional water change with distilled water to bring the hardness down.... you plan to just let it rise?
> 
> Though it’s true my plants seemed unaffected at 15.5 dGH and 11 dKH... but I felt in the long term it was safer to reduce them just in case...


This is a tiny experimental setup without any livestock and just one plant species and I want to know its limits. I will keep doing it (no water change) until I start to see growth issues. I inserted a whole stick of ADA bottom plus root tab in it last night (after measuring the parameters). I know it is too much for this tiny setup but I did it anyway. I am going to watch the plants and will measure ammonia soon.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> This is a tiny experimental setup without any livestock and just one plant species and I want to know its limits. I will keep doing it (no water change) until I start to see growth issues. I inserted a whole stick of ADA bottom plus root tab in it last night (after measuring the parameters). I know it is too much for this tiny setup but I did it anyway. I am going to watch the plants and will measure ammonia soon.
> View attachment 1043250
> 
> View attachment 1043252


I'm very curious to see updates of this tiny setup! It will be interesting to see how long it continues to do so well.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - It has been almsot 24 hours since I inserted one stick of ADA bottom plus (root tab) in the substrate. It contains significant amounts of ammonia and one whole stick is a lot for such a small volume of water. I just measured ammonia and I am quite surprised to see almost similar readings that I got yesterday before adding the root tab (maybe slight increase from yesterday, still less than 0.5 ppm for sure).
It appears that ADA Amazonia is doing a good job and not allowing significant amount of ammonia to leach into the water column so far. I will measure again tomorrow.


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## rzn7z7 (Aug 17, 2013)

sudiorca said:


> Ammania pedicillata 'golden' along with some other problematic Lythraceae family members grow decently with fewer problems in all of my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks. However, like most people, I struggle to keep these happy for extended period of time in my pressurized CO2 injected high-tech tank. I think the faster metabolism coupled with constantly fluctuating conditions in many high-tech tanks (including mine) are the main culprits. Stability is far more important than simply adding CO2 to the tank as I mentioned in my very first post.


Interesting experiement @sudiorca and look forward to the results. What other members of lythraceae have similar issues?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

rzn7z7 said:


> Interesting experiement @sudiorca and look forward to the results. What other members of lythraceae have similar issues?


Thanks. I don't know whether the issues are similar or not but many people including myself struggle with several members of Lythraceae from time to time in hightech tanks. Ammania pedicillata golden is probably one of the most difficult plants to keep happy in pressurized CO2 injected tanks for longer periods of time. Other problematic members from the family are Rotala tulunadensis, macrandra varieties, wallichii, enie etc. Several Ammania species apart from pedicillata such as gracilis, senegalensis, pratermissa (probably the most difficult one) are also hard to keep happy. Cuphea anagalloidea and utriculosa also give issues. I have been growing most of these plants in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks for quite some time now. They do struggle from time to time but overall I can keep them happy for much longer in those setups compared to my high-tech tank.
Here are the pictures of some of those plants grown in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.
Rotala tulunadensis 
Rotala wallichii 
Cuphea utriculosa


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - Ammonia reading has increased to 0.5 ppm today (48 hours). It is still quite low considering the amount of root tab I inserted into the substrate. I will measure again tomorrow.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Do you think the tab is releasing slowly or that the Amazonia is controlling it through cation exchange? Or something else? 

Do you think there is any risk of root burn due to excess nutrients?

A biologist I was talking to mentioned that most of these plants actually don’t get much by way of nutrients in their natural environment, and that the main role of the substrate is to provide carbon, so something like peat under the substrate is ideal... have you ever experimented with peat in the tanks?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Do you think the tab is releasing slowly or that the Amazonia is controlling it through cation exchange? Or something else?


Amazonia is definitely binding some ammonia and the fact that the tabs are buried deep under the substrate which is also slowing down the leaching.



LidijaPN said:


> Do you think there is any risk of root burn due to excess nutrients?


Yes that it possible. I am going to monitor the plants daily which might help me to see any issues with plant growth/form in future.




LidijaPN said:


> have you ever experimented with peat in the tanks?


I haven't added specifically peat but I am using aquasoil in all of my tanks and those are mostly peat based products.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - Ammonia reading is getting close to 1 ppm now (72 hours). Plants are looking good so far but it is too early to see any effects (positive or negative). I will keep monitoring it.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

I made these images of aquatic plant leaves last year using my camera attached to a microscope 🔬. There are three different plants, first two were grown in hightech tank and the third one in non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank. Let's see if anyone can identify them.

1.



































2.


















3.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I’ll take a stab at it and be hilariously wrong 

No. 1 Blyxa japonica, low tech 
No. 2 Cabomba purple, high tech
No. 3 some sort of Hygrophila polysperma, high tech


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> I’ll take a stab at it and be hilariously wrong
> 
> No. 1 Blyxa japonica, low tech
> No. 2 Cabomba purple, high tech
> No. 3 some sort of Hygrophila polysperma, high tech


You got No. 2 right, it is Cabomba furcata.

No. 1 is not Blyxa and it is infact not even a stem plant and it is grown in my high-tech tank. I haven't been able to grow this plant in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.

No. 3 is a relatively easy stem plant and it is grown in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank. This plant requires nitrate limitation in order to turn the leaves red.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> You got No. 2 right, it is Cabomba furcata.
> 
> No. 1 is not Blyxa and it is infact not even a stem plant and it is grown in my high-tech tank. I haven't been able to grow this plant in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.
> 
> No. 3 is a relatively easy stem plant and it is grown in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank. This plant requires nitrate limitation in order to turn the leaves red.


Hey I’ll take 1 out of 3!! 

Hmmm what’s not a stem and is so straight and long......??? And it’s difficult to boot... some kind of syn?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> Hey I’ll take 1 out of 3!!
> 
> Hmmm what’s not a stem and is so straight and long......??? And it’s difficult to boot... some kind of syn?


It's _Eriocaulon cuspidatum_.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

sudiorca said:


> It's _Eriocaulon cuspidatum_.


Dangit 😅

These photos are beautiful, if you have more please share them sometime


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## Freshfishguy (Apr 7, 2021)

sudiorca said:


> You got No. 2 right, it is Cabomba furcata.
> 
> No. 1 is not Blyxa and it is infact not even a stem plant and it is grown in my high-tech tank. I haven't been able to grow this plant in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.
> 
> No. 3 is a relatively easy stem plant and it is grown in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tank. This plant requires nitrate limitation in order to turn the leaves red.


#3 is either H’ra or rotundifolia!


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Freshfishguy said:


> #3 is either H’ra or rotundifolia!


Absolutely right, H'ra.

Although I have several non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks, I still enjoy growing plants in high-tech tank. These some old images of aquatic plants grown in my pressurized CO2 injected high-tech tank. I made these images using my dslr camera with a macro lens.

_Ludwigia inclinata _var. verticillata Pantanal 










_Ludwigia inclinata _var. verticillata Meta










_Rotala macrandra '_vareigated'










_Rotala ramosior _Florida










_Eriocaulon cuspidatum 










Rotala tulunadensis 










Cabomba _(not quite sure about the species)


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

stunning.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

LidijaPN said:


> stunning.


Thank you 🙂.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - day 5 (June 4, 2022) since I added one stick of ADA bottom plus under the plants. 
Ammonia has now increased to 2 ppm (approximately).


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - day 7 (June 6, 2022) since I added one stick of ADA bottom plus under the plants.
Ammonia reading is now beyond 2 ppm and pretty close to 4 ppm. Plants are still doing okay.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Macro shots with pearling plants really make nice photos. Pearling does vary from species to species but do you ever see pearling in your non-supplemented co2 tanks?


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> Macro shots with pearling plants really make nice photos. Pearling does vary from species to species but do you ever see pearling in your non-supplemented co2 tanks?


I do see pearling in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks in some species, they are more pronounced for plants with thinner leaves.
Here are _Rotala_ _rotundifolia_ H'ra and _wallichii_ pearling in my non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

This is my 3.5 gal low-tech tank that has been running for more than 2 years. I am using dechlorinated tap water (GH; 6-7, KH; 3-4, pH 7.4) for this tank. The light is a cheap led from Nicrew (low light, less than 50 PAR at the substrate). The substrate is thin layer of organic potting mix capped with fine black gravel. I will not recommend anyone to use potting mix now, especially with fine gravel. It contains too much organic matter which will decompose over time and make the tank conditions unstable in the longer run (more than a year). Fine gravel increases the problem even more as it doesn't allow proper water circulation in the substrate which creates anaerobic zones and it smells terrible when the plants are uprooted. 
I used to have a betta in this tank but not anymore (I won't do that in the future as well, I will use atleast a 5 gallon tank or bigger for a single betta). 
I neglected this tank for more than 3 months (no water change) and this is what happened to it. I made this image on May 7, 2022. There was massive bba growth on the plants and the substrate along with the glass was coated with cyanobacteria.










So, I finally decided to clean the tank on the same day (May 7, 2022)
First I removed the driftwood along with all the epiphytes (anubias and bucephalandra). I tried to remove as much bba manually as possible.
Then I thoroughly wiped the glass and cleaned the substrate with a siphon and a turkey baster and also cleaned the tiny hob filter. I did almost 100% water change three times in a row. After I added the plants back and filled it with water, I added 3 mL of Seachem Flourish Excel. I repeated excel dosage for the next 5 days. Excel is quite toxic and it can kill some plants but it didn't any plant in this case, except melting couple of bucephalandra leaves. 
I did the next water change (90%) the following week (7 days after the first cleaning). I did two more water changes in the next couple of weeks and this is how it is looking right now, June 7, 2022. There is still some algae but it is looking much better now. I will keep doing the weekly water changes from now on. I am also adding 1 mL of ThriveS after water change now.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

That's interesting about the pearling in the non-co2 tanks. I always thought of pearling as super fast growth. Whereas the o2 was being produced at such a quick rate that it couldn't be absorbed into the water column. Sort of the way a cut stem will "bleed" o2 in an otherwise pearl-less tank. As the o2 is pouring out of the stem without anything regulating it.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - 9th day (June 8, 2022) since I added one stick of ADA bottom plus under the plants.
Although it might not look that obvious from the photo but ammonia reading is pretty much matching with 4ppm from the chart in person.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

600 mL container update - June 20, 2022. It has been exactly 3 weeks (21 days) since I added one stick of ADA bottom plus under the roots. I just measured ammonia and it definitely has reached the maximum limit of the API kit (8 ppm or more). It is quite amazing that _Ammania pedicillata _golden has not shown any signs of stunting or crumbling of top leaves in this condition (it can't be said that other plants can also tolerate this much amount of ammonia unless tested individually).
It is also worth noticing that there is no signs of visible algae in this container which is contrary to the popular belief that presence of ammonia in water column always leads to algae outbreak. This again shows that healthy plants along with stable conditions are extremely important factors to maintain a lush planted tank.


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## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

The ammania if anything looks better than before! It seemed to have a very small amount of green spot algae on the lowest leaves but now even that seems to have gone


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

What’s even more amazing is there’s a snail alive in 8ppm+ of ammonia.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> What’s even more amazing is there’s a snail alive in 8ppm+ of ammonia.


I am also quite surprised to see the snail alive and well. The pH of the water is around 5.2 and that is definitely helping the snail and even the plants.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

sudiorca said:


> I am also quite surprised to see the snail alive and well. The pH of the water is around 5.2 and that is definitely helping the snail and even the plants.


Do you think the low PH also has an affect on the toxins relation to algae growth?


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## LeperKuN (5 mo ago)

This has inspired me to try a non-co2 tank. I removed my heater a long time ago because it never gets cold in Los Angeles and noticed better growth but never made the connection. I see you've made the connection. I am going to borrow several of your techniques for my co2 tank! Especially the avoidance of uprooting plants. Nesea 'golden' is so beautiful but sensitive lol... I also did not make the connection with my nesea being so healthy with leaving roots alone. I sure am glad to have joined this forum. Massive learning here!


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## Lew93b (9 mo ago)

Is there any reason that you can think of that this method would not work on straight tap water? I would like to try this but don't want to do RO water


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

Lew93b said:


> Is there any reason that you can think of that this method would not work on straight tap water? I would like to try this but don't want to do RO water


You can use tap water for a non-CO2 supplemented planted tank but the KH should be low (as low as possible) if you want to achieve better growth for majority of the colorful and beautiful plants in the hobby.



LeperKuN said:


> This has inspired me to try a non-co2 tank. I removed my heater a long time ago because it never gets cold in Los Angeles and noticed better growth but never made the connection. I see you've made the connection. I am going to borrow several of your techniques for my co2 tank! Especially the avoidance of uprooting plants. Nesea 'golden' is so beautiful but sensitive lol... I also did not make the connection with my nesea being so healthy with leaving roots alone. I sure am glad to have joined this forum. Massive learning here!


I am glad that you find my thread helpful.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

I was gone for almost 6 weeks and I asked my friend to top off the tanks with ro-di water (not remineralized) along with feeding the livestock twice a week. He did a pretty good job and I am really thankful to him. However, some of my tanks didn't appreciate no maintenance with high light (100+ PAR at substrate) for such a long duration. The situation became even worse for this particular tank as there are decent number of fishes and my friend was little generous with feeding 😊. 3.5 years old substrate (ADA Amazonia light) has degraded significantly which also contributed to suboptimal plant growth along with massive algae outbreak.
I made the first photo right after I came back (yes it looked pretty bad).









I was quite disappointed to see the tank in this condition but I didn't panic. I knew what caused this issue and had a decent idea how to rectity it.

These are the steps I took:
1. Uprooted most of the plants and manually removed as much algae as possible. I also removed a lot of moss covered with algae as well.
2. Tossed the healthy tops to my shrimp tank and left them for couple of days. They did a pretty good job cleaning most of the algae (green fuzzy type).
3. Spot treated bba on the driftwood with freshly prepared 1:1 mix of 3% H2O2 and flourish excel.
4. Cleaned the substrate with a gravel vac.
5. Performed 80% water change after gravel vac.
6. Inserted ammonia containing root tabs deep under the substrate throughout the tank.
7. Throughly cleaned the filter including the impeller.
8. Replanted the stem tops after two days (I let the shrimps do their job for couple of days before planting the tops).
9. I performed weekly water changes for the next 5 weeks (except the first week when I did twice). I only performed the bba spot treatment for the first 3 weeks (once every week before the water change).

This is how the tank looks right now (Dec 16, 2022), 6 weeks since I came back.There is still little bit of algae present but it is under control now.


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## guillaume-u (3 mo ago)

Hello @sudiorca,

First for all, congrats about this huge cleaning  The "new" tank is as beautiful as before.
I'm also happy to see some update in this thread as I started in October a tank using your recipe 

I'm guessing new plants are not taken from the old tank (because in 6 weeks, they should not be as tall as in the photo, isn't it ?)
Are new plants are taken from other tanks with the same approach (high par, low temp) ? or taken from a more classic tank ?

Thanks 

Guillaume.


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## sudiorca (Apr 7, 2020)

guillaume-u said:


> Hello @sudiorca,
> 
> First for all, congrats about this huge cleaning  The "new" tank is as beautiful as before.
> I'm also happy to see some update in this thread as I started in October a tank using your recipe
> ...


Thank you for your appreciation. I hope you are getting decent results with your new setup.
All of the plants are same except Ammania pedicillata golden (I could have used the same plants but I have plenty in other tanks, so I decided to add these from another tank with similar parameters).
I mentioned in my previous post that I uprooted most of the plants. However, I didn't uproot Rotala mexicana goias (front carpet) and Ludwigia palustris super red (in the back, those were too small to be seen from the front as they were behind the driftwood) which I didn't specify in my previous post.
I also mentioned how I removed the bottom parts of all the uprooted plants and let the tops float in my shrimp tank for couple of days. The shrimps removed most of the hair algae (fuzzy type) from them. So, I did use the same plants shown in the first photo after shrimps cleaned the algae from them. I removed most of the hair algae from Ludwigia palustris super red and rotala mexicana goias manually and some of the bba were treated with spot dosing H2O2 + excel mix.
Some of the plants including Ludwigia senegalensis and Ludwigia inclinata var verticillata Meta were trimmed last week as they were getting taller. Plants do grow at decent pace in these setups when they are happy.


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## dazzbee (Dec 11, 2021)

do you have experience with limnophila aromatica in low tech ,? do they easy to grow in low tech? im still dilemma between rotala Hra and aromatica for my low tech tank


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