# BBA problems.



## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

BBA is associated with poor C02, every time.
How much light do you have on this 20g? I'm betting to much
to use with DIY, so reduce light intesity.

Dosing Excel, you will want to follow the instructions on the bottle.
For daily dose to use as algae repellent use first dose as described
on bottle, each additional dose you want to double, no more.

Prune off infected leafs that you can, you want to get the plants growing,
and at the same time the algae will grow if you do not correct the
offending issue. ie to much light, poor C02.


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## lescarpentier (Feb 2, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> BBA is associated with poor C02, every time.
> .


And inadequate circulation to distribute the CO2.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Yes, I should have added that too, that is correct!

Thank you, Les,


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I have a 65wt bulb on it. 
In all honesty I do not believe it is to much light to little CO2. It was to little light that caused the problem. I have had this tank running for 2 yrs and have not changed a thing. The only problem I have ever had with algae is some on the glass, never BBS.

I was doing a little bit of research on different types of algae and it looks like I have staghorn also, just great. I'm begining to wonder what the heck has happened in my tank, besides the lighting problem, that I've fixed. I'm getting to much algae, yuck.


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

65W is a lot of light on a 20 gal. I don't think DIY CO2 is going to be able to keep up with that much light. In my experience, BBA is always improper levels of CO2.

Do you dose any nutrients?


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> BBA is associated with poor C02, every time.


I know people keep saying this but why is there BBA on a plant that I have right in front of the outflow where CO2 comes out?

That should be where the most CO2 and flow is right?


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Heres a link to a thread that touches on BBA. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/algae/77883-lets-get-bottom-bba.html

I went through denial for a while just like you are. Now that I have spot treated effected areas with Excel and had stable co2 levels with pressurized co2 for a few months the algea is non existant.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

The reason why I went with a 65wt bulb is becouse the tank is high not long. I was having trouble with light not reaching the bottom, the bulb is also 4in off the top of the tank, becouse of heat issues.
Yes, I do dose ferts. Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, trace and once in a blue moon iron for the echinodorus. These are all from the Seachem line. I only dose when needed.
So if it is low CO2, why am I now having this problem after 2 yrs with no problems? You would think I would have had problems with algae in the begining, not after 2 yrs of balanced conditions. I just don't get it.
Do you think maybe adding a second bottle of CO2 (DIY) would help? Or maybe dosing with excel in conjunction with DIY will boost CO2 levels?


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## flanders (May 3, 2008)

lf11 said:


> I only dose when needed.



How do you know? I'm just curious. 

It takes at least a couple weeks, in my experience, to see differences in plant/algae growth when conditions change i.e. CO2, light, dosing, etc.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

We are telling you the cause of your problem. If you dont want to take the advise then dont.



lf11 said:


> The reason why I went with a 65wt bulb is becouse the tank is high not long. I was having trouble with light not reaching the bottom, the bulb is also 4in off the top of the tank, becouse of heat issues.
> Yes, I do dose ferts. Nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, trace and once in a blue moon iron for the echinodorus. These are all from the Seachem line. I only dose when needed.
> So if it is low CO2, why am I now having this problem after 2 yrs with no problems? You would think I would have had problems with algae in the begining, not after 2 yrs of balanced conditions. I just don't get it.
> Do you think maybe adding a second bottle of CO2 (DIY) would help? Or maybe dosing with excel in conjunction with DIY will boost CO2 levels?


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## cprroy73 (Nov 10, 2004)

First are your plants still doing well? Are all your plant larger now than ever before (more biomass)?

If you have more plants now they will usually require more co2 maybe more than your diy co2 can provide now. Does the diy co2 still seem to be producing alot of bubbles?
Maybe you need to add another diy bottle.

Also with a densely planted tank the circulation will slow down alot. This will create pockets where co2 concentration may not be good enough.

Make sure your filter hoses are clean to improve circulation and the filter should be cleaned aswell.

Do you know roughly what your co2 concentration is?

What all the others are saying is, more often than not it is some sort of co2 issue that cause BBA and upping the co2 usually solves this problem. You may still have to manually remove the infect leaves etc., but your the problem should stop if the co2 is improved.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

flanders-I can't test micro nutrients or my potassium, but I test for nitrogen and phosphorus. I also go by the growth of my plants, if there is any yellow or brown leaves any holes or melting leaves.


bsmith782-It's not that I don't want to take your advice. I cannot afford a pressurized co2 right now. The only other light ( 26wts) I could possibly use, which was the light I was using when the 65wt blew, is when the algae appeared. Also my crypts started to suffer and melt. 

I don't know if this will show you anything or not but this is what my tank looked like before the algae. This was a month ago after a trim.

















It was full and growing great. I had to trim the plants in the back every 2 weeks. Honestly does it look like there was a lack of co2? Or am I judging something wrong?
Maybe I should just pull the plants and go low tech, but I was so happy with the tank. I'm not sure what to do with it since I don't have enough co2. Maybe I'll give it a little longer and see what happens.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

cprroy73 said:


> First are your plants still doing well? Are all your plant larger now than ever before (more biomass)?
> 
> If you have more plants now they will usually require more co2 maybe more than your diy co2 can provide now. Does the diy co2 still seem to be producing alot of bubbles?
> Maybe you need to add another diy bottle.
> ...


If anything the biomass of the plants decreased becouse of the light reduction. Lost a bit of my crypts, I thought crypts were low light, maybe they got used to my high light.
The co2 seemed to be going fine, but I went ahead and replaced the hoses in case of blockage. I guess it might be a waste of stuff but I always made up a new batch of yeast every week, even when bubbles were still good, becouse I didn't want to risk drastic PH swings with my fish. I made a new batch this morning will test co2 concentration tomorrow.
Cleaning the filter was going to be my next step. If the co2 is still low I'll add another bottle and see how it goes.
Thanks


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## cprroy73 (Nov 10, 2004)

It looks pretty thick in there from the pics. Maybe your not getting good circulation. 
You want good cir. but minimal surface disturbance. 



> I also go by the growth of my plants, if there is any yellow or brown leaves any holes or melting leaves.


If you use this as a gage for when to fertilize it may be to late because you may run out of a nutrient by that time.

You could use EI to dose your tank and not have to worry as much if any about testing for macros and micros.

That and "STABLE" co2 in the 20ppm-30ppm with good circulation works for me nearly everytime.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I also go by the growth of my plants, if there is any yellow or brown leaves any holes or melting leaves.

I guess I should clarify that statement. I don't actually wait to see rotting leaves or anything.
This is my routine. I do water changes on my tanks every Tuesday. After changing water I add my ferts and refill co2. This schedule has worked for me for 2 years. The only problem I had was with my echinodorus, the older leaves would start to melt. That's why I started dosing iron and since then it has stopped. If during the week I do notice any problems, I test what I can and dose more if I need to. But I have had hardly ever had low nutrients in any of my tanks. My plants are green and growing. I like to think I have reached a perfect balance but I could be wrong since I don't have all the right tests.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

Is that a red ruben sword in the center?


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

Yes it is a red rubin, although it does not look very red in that pic. But then again only the new leaves are red for me. It's my first try with them.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

Wether you can afford pressurized co2 or not, co2 is the root of the problem.


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

IME, that ruben should be way bigger if your nutrients were correct and balanced. Granted you've got a 20H, but still looks a bit small.


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## abcemorse (Jul 24, 2008)

In addition to low CO2, inconsistent CO2 will also cause BBA issues. With the lighting reduced suddenly, the demand for CO2 is reduced suddenly, which in turn decreases the amount that is taken up by the plants, making the level of CO2 change suddenly=>BBA. Get the light situated, kill existing BBA, let things even out again, should be OK.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

brohawk- I didn't think the sword got any bigger then what it was. So I checked the plant profiles on here. My plant does not really have the width of leaves as the pic shows in the profile. They are thinner, more like the red diamonds. So now I'm not sure which it is. I'll try to get a better pic and take it over to the plant forum for ID. Thanks

abcemorse-Your statement about the sudden reduction in lighting is what is causing the BBA, becouse of decreased use of CO2. Is more in tune with what I was thinking. I have been trying to tell people my tank was fine, I had great growth, yes the sword was slow, but I was trimming the stem plants every 2 weeks. Otherwise they took over the tank. I've had this tank going for 2 yrs on just one bottle of DIY CO2. It was not until my light died on me and I had a reduction in lighting that caused the algae problems.

I just want to get it back to the way it was. If I increase CO2 to balance with the light, I have to dose more ferts to get equal balance. If I decrease light to match my supposed lack of CO2, more of my plants will die, like they did when I was using the lower light till the other one was fixed. 
So as of now this is what my CO2 is, this is 2hrs after lights on.
PH-6.6
KH-3
If I'm correct this puts my CO2 at about 23ppm. I even checked the bubble output, it was 16 BPM. My understanding is that the CO2 is at a good level. Should I put another bottle on the tank anyway? A smaller one maybe, I think one the same size would just be to much for my fish to handle. Right now I just need to get rid of the algae so my plants can get caught back up.


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## abcemorse (Jul 24, 2008)

Don't rely too much on the pH/KH calcs for CO2; phosphates, wood material, and other stuff can jack with the pH so that relationship is not necessarily dependable. My water district report says my KH is about 6.5, my tank pH is 6.2, which gives a CO2 concentration of about, oh, 130 ppm. :eek5: Since my fish are well I doubt that! My guess is that the report is wrong, or the pH of the tank is altered by stuff that's in it. Drop checkers are closer, also do a degass test: test a sample for pH, let untested portion sit 24 hrs or so then test again. pH drop of around 1.0 is what you're after. Another possibility is the reduced lighting caused reduced growth, and algae is an opportunistic beast, and will find and exploit any weakness it can. I do not in any way mean to dismiss the CO2 part of the equation, it is critical, more so than any other nutrient. I only mean to say that they all work together, a disruption of one can affect how all the rest are utilized by the plants. I guess that make my 4 cents now....


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

The Rubin I had grew to the top of my 29 gal, which I think is the same height as yr tank (18")? So you could be having stunted growth from low CO2, unless the Rubin (if we find that's what it is) hasn't been in yr tank very long. Other plants grow quickly to the top w/ low CO2, as they're trying to reach the surface where there's more CO2 in the atmosphere. I can't say more on that as I haven't dealt w/ the other sp. of plants you have.

W/ only 16 bpm, I still doubt you have 23 ppm. The pH/kH chart is extremely inaccurate w/ most tanks, as other cations in the water besides carbonate affect kH, giving you a false pH/CO2 relationship. 2 bps in your tank would probably get you closer to 23 ppm. I'd definitely add a 2nd bottle, and a 3rd would be best. That way you can alternate refills every 3 days or so, so that while one is dieing and another's starting, the 3rd is in its prime. You then just mess w/ your yeast/sugar recipe to get the ouput you want, but the level will be much more consistent. I'd also recommend investing $10 in a drop checker, as they are much more accurate at determining yr approx CO2 levels.

IMO, it wasn't so much undulating CO2 levels from the lights that caused yr initial outbreak. I'm sure it had more to do w/ yr crypts melting, which released a ton more nutrients into yr tank, which the algae took advantage of under low CO2 and the now replaced high light. But now you've got BBA, so it's going to be tough to go straight back to where you were before. I'd try and get yr tank growing insanely fast w/ more CO2 and ferts, so you can stop the BBA's growth first. When it's eliminated, you can think about maybe dropping down yr ferts/CO2 to like before--though I personally don't recommend. You might find you have fuller, lusher growth rather than height under the new conditions, which you might prefer anyway.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I've only had the sword 3 months.
There is no wood in this tank so that would not be a reason for low PH, I'll test phosphates again since I do have a kit for that. Other then that I don't know what could be in the tank to cause lower PH. I'll try the degas test and see what it says.
I went ahead and added another bottle to my tank this afternoon to see if that did anything. I tested after 3 hrs and the PH dropped to 6.4 which would have put my co2 at 37ppm, if you go buy the PH/KH chart. My crypts and anubias were streaming bubbles, my corys were shooting to the surface and gulping like crazy, the platy's were sluggish, not good so I took the bottle off.
Where is a good place to get a drop checker? Also I think the staghorn is dying off, it's turning white, or is that a bad thing?


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm still waiting the 24hrs for the degas test to finish, when it's done I'll post results.
I did check my phosphate, it's somewhere between 0 and 0.25. How would this effect my PH?
I tested PH/KH for co2, looking into drop checker. It was a little hard to read KH this time, it was either 3 or 4, slightly blue at 3 so I added another drop and it was blue. So what ever one you go by my co2 was 23 or 30. PH 6.6.
Well the algae isn't growing any more, some has turned white and some red, hopefully this is a good thing and it's not getting ready to burst out in growth, yuck.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

When algae turn red they are dying. When they turn white they are dead and the fish usually start eating them. So, I think you are on your way to curing the problem.

I have cut back crypts totally - remove all of the leaves, keeping just the stub and roots, then replanting them. They take awhile to adjust, then they start growing again. If crypts were undesirable, ugly things, we would find them as hard to get rid of as some algae!

Tom Barr has been telling us for some time that algae start growing, the spores "hatch", when water conditions are at a stage that they are genetically programmed to recognize as a great time to start a growth cycle and be able to complete it before their enemies, the plants, can grow enough to shade them and thus kill them. Apparently low or fluctuating CO2 levels are one of the things algae recognize as a signal that it is time to start growing. Ammonia in the water is another such signal.

But, once the algae are growing, they use the same ferts that plants use, and CO2 is useful to them too, just not in the concentrations that plants do best in. So, once we have algae growing in the tank our nutrients, including CO2 are useful to the algae too. That's why we usually need to physically remove or kill existing algae, correct the condition that caused them to grow, and they should stay dormant from then on.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

O.k here is the result of the degas test, although it doesn't make sense to me. Took a sample of water, PH was 6.6. Waited the 24hrs and it was 7.6. So if it was supposed to drop by 1 does that mean it was supposed to be 5.6. My color charts don't even go that low with my kit.
Or am I reading something wrong here. Is it supposed to be drop by one before co2 or drop by one after co2 or what. It makes more sense to me if it was raised by one after 24hrs. Co2 causes PH to drop, so if you leave a sample of water to degas the loss of co2 would make your sample revert to the original PH, so it would go up by one. Am I missing something here?


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## brohawk (May 19, 2008)

It drops AFTER adding CO2. 1 full point drop is good but you might still need just a bit more. If the BBA stays red/white, your fish will start eating it and it'll slough off over a few days. If you see new BBA growth though, you still need more CO2 and/or circulation. You never said what you're using for a filter on this tank. If you see new growth, think about increasing flow, as maybe not all your plants are receiving the proper amt of nutrients equally. You should also add that second bottle of CO2 back on, but mess w/ your recipe. Instead of adding 1 tsp of yeast to each bottle for example, add 1/2 - 3/4 tsp to each, so CO2 production is slower but lasts longer and is more steady. Then alternate every half week when you change out the mixtures.


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## Aquarist_Fist (Jul 22, 2008)

cprroy73 said:


> It looks pretty thick in there from the pics. Maybe your not getting good circulation.
> You want good cir. but minimal surface disturbance.


I never bought into that. As long as there is no splashing, some good surface ripple is always good. In my 15g, I use one DIY bottle fed into the canister filter intake and another which feeds into a Maxi Jet powerhead. The powerhead is aimed upwards and creates some nice surface agitation, so I assume much of this CO2 is outgassed but definitely not all. My drop checker is constantly in the yellow, but the surface agitation prevent my fish (otos, T. hengeli, rams) from discomfort or worse.

I'm still going pressurized. Algae here, too.


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## lf11 (Jan 3, 2009)

I have an HOB filter on the tank. I can adjust the flow rate with a valve on the top, right now it's open pretty much all the way.
The algae is still dying, platys are picking at it, have seen no new growth.
PH still at 6.6 and KH 3. Bubbles have not slowed down, it will get refilled today anyway since today is Tuesday and I do all my water changes, dosing and bottle refilling Tuesdays. So I don't have to worry about co2 drop. 
I admit I care for my fish more then a beautiful pristine planted tank, so will not take the chance of PH swings every day or so while I figure out the correct portions on a second bottle of co2. I'll deal with a little bit of algae if I have to.


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## abcemorse (Jul 24, 2008)

Sorry, I should've been more clear about the degas results, :icon_roll as was posted by brohawk, the post 24 hr reading should be higher, so if it changed by 1 full point you should be in the ballpark. Again, only an estimate, it's real difficult to test accurately.


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