# Dosing liquid Carbon?



## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

does dosing liquid carbon work well and on a scale of "nothing-pressurized co2" how well does it work? I am asking because my 110g is too big for DIY and i wont have money for a pressurized system for a while and i want to fill in my tank so i can stock it fully.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Dosing Liquid Carbon*

_Hello Indeed. This is a great question. I have several low tech tanks and I've been dosing Cidex for a couple of months. I can tell you my stem plants have done very well with it. The mosses are also doing pretty well, but not as well as the stems. My Java Fern isn't doing as well. It's basically hanging in there, probably hoping I'll start dosing with something else. My Corkscrew Vals are the same way._

_I had a slight issue with algae before using the carbon fert, but that's history. Algae is a primitive plant and doesn't tolerate even a small dose of carbon. So, that's been a plus. My fish have been unaffected, so another plus._

_I'd say, if you're going to use it temporarily, then do so in small doses. I wouldn't use it long term. There are some equally effective alternatives out there that don't contain "Gluteraldehyde"._

_Just one reporter's opinion._

_BBradbury _


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

BBradbury said:


> _Hello Indeed. This is a great question. I have several low tech tanks and I've been dosing Cidex for a couple of months. I can tell you my stem plants have done very well with it. The mosses are also doing pretty well, but not as well as the stems. My Java Fern isn't doing as well. It's basically hanging in there, probably hoping I'll start dosing with something else. My Corkscrew Vals are the same way._
> 
> _I had a slight issue with algae before using the carbon fert, but that's history. Algae is a primitive plant and doesn't tolerate even a small dose of carbon. So, that's been a plus. My fish have been unaffected, so another plus._
> 
> ...


What would be one of those equally effective alternatives?


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## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

Guess i should rephrase my question: How does doseing flourish excel (liquid carbon) compare to pressurized co2? thanks for the input thus far.


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## greenbox (Feb 20, 2011)

Bbradberry was talking about dosing Flourish Excel. Gluteraldehyde is the scientific name for the only active ingredient in Excel. This is important to know because you are going to use alot for a tank that size and now you can find it for much cheaper online.


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Dosing Excel, according to Seachem, gives you 200%-500% faster growth. In my experience it's usually 100-200%.

Excel works best with low lighting levels. Medium lighting is pushing it a bit, though some people manage it. High lighting is not an option at all.

CO2 in combination with low lighting is probably 400-500% faster; and with more lighting, faster still.


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## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Dosing Excel, according to Seachem, gives you 200%-500% faster growth. In my experience it's usually 100-200%.
> 
> Excel works best with low lighting levels. Medium lighting is pushing it a bit, though some people manage it.  High lighting is not an option at all.
> 
> CO2 in combination with low lighting is probably 400-500% faster; and with more lighting, faster still.


I have 216w of t5-HO, however my tank is 30" tall, still i believe that's high light, are you saying that dosing with excel at those lighting levels will not have an effect?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Dosing with Excel will still provide benefit to the plants. The issue with high light and no CO2 is usually algae control. If this isn't currently an issue for you, and you're only after faster plant growth, go for it.

I recall seeing a recent thread where Metricide was on sale. For a 110G, this will be much more economical.


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## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

Metricide 14 is that basically the same thing as excel? i apologize i am new to the whole dosing thing.


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

yep but more concentrated.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

Good morning Hoppy. A "no glut" alternative to Cidex that I found pretty effective is Nutrafin's "Plant Gro". I started using it a couple of years ago way before I started using Cidex and my ferns liked it better. Granted, the stem plants didn't do quite as well. I've noticed a little more browning in my ferns and my Vals essentially stopped growing with Cidex. Cidex is by far less expensive. I'm looking into some other liquid ferts without glut. Just trying to find a fert that will be good for all my plants.

BBradbury


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## chicken (Aug 22, 2007)

BBradbury said:


> Good morning Hoppy. A "no glut" alternative to Cidex that I found pretty effective is Nutrafin's "Plant Gro". I started using it a couple of years ago way before I started using Cidex and my ferns liked it better. Granted, the stem plants didn't do quite as well. I've noticed a little more browing in my ferns and my Vals esstentially stopped growing with Cidex. Cidex is by far less expensive. I'm looking into some other liquid ferts without glut. Just trying to find a fert that will be good for all my plants.
> 
> BBradbury


I don't think it's quite accurate to compare Excel/Metricide/Cidex with Plant Gro. Excel/Metricide/Cidex, with gluteraldehyde as the active ingredient, is a substitute for co2 (and also works well as an algaecide). Plant Gro is a micronutrient fertilizer, much like Flourish 'comprehensive'. 

I suppose one could refer to adding co2 or a co2 substitute as "fertilizing", but I worry that this unnecessarily confuses things, especially for people new to planted aquariums.


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

_Hello chicken. Not comparing the Plant Gro to the others. I totally understand the Plant Gro has no "Gluteraldehyde". Have used both the Glut and Non Glut ferts and the two affect my plants differently. My stems prefer the Cidex and Excel Flourish with the Glut. My ferns, mosses and Vals do better with the Plant Gro. _

_I'm now on the lookout for a liquid fert without Gluteraldehyde that will benefit all my plants._

_BBradbury _


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## Brian3 (Jan 14, 2008)

the thing is that glut "fert" is for bring Carbon, plant gro is a micro nutrient fert. So you need to use the 2 at the same time because one not remplaces the other.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Indeed said:


> does dosing liquid carbon work well and on a scale of "nothing-pressurized co2" how well does it work? I am asking because my 110g is too big for DIY and i wont have money for a pressurized system for a while and i want to fill in my tank so i can stock it fully.


I am becoming convinced that DIY CO2 can be effective for tanks that big. It will not give you enough CO2 for a high light tank, as you have, with 4 T5HO bulbs lighting it, but it will work for low to low medium light. I am now running a 3 L DIY bottle on my 45 gallon low light tank. I use a drop checker to determine how much CO2 is in the water, and it is somewhere around 20 ppm. This has been going steady for about 2 weeks now. 

When I first set up the CO2, the plants were barely growing, if at all. They looked good, but I had to use my imagination to see any visible new plant tissue. Two days after starting the CO2, I could definitely see new growth, and now all of the plants are growing - this includes Rotalas, Staurogyne, H. difformis, and Ludwigia. None of those are notoriously hard to grow, but they weren't doing well without the CO2.

If you cut your lighting in half - run 2 bulbs, not 4 - and use either a gallon size DIY bottle, or two 3 L bottles, I will bet you will see major improvement.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

DIY may work but you need to be aware of the work involved in it maintaining it. Most people end up stepping away from it bc its so time intensive!

Also, like bradbury said, dosing excel or not will depend on what you're growing. I recently asked if dosing excel will help my largely moss only tank grow. People quickly notified me that mosses do not respond well to excel.


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## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

well i do see fairly rapid growth even now without co2. I did use a DIY co2 system but i scaled it up from a 2l to a 5gal container and noticed 100% faster growth for the 2 weeks it ran, that's why i am so keen on dosing co2 (however 5gallons uses alot of sugar). Thanks a ton for all the info i think i will get some metricide soon, I might try shutting off 2 of the bulbs to see if there is any improvement as well, thanks a ton guys 

ps. here is a list of the plants i am growing:
Unknown rotala
rotala indica
crypt wenditii "brown"
aponogeton ulvaceus
Harigrass
microsword
java fern
Tiger lotus
Italian val
Hyrgro compact

all of these are pretty easy so far.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

Exactly, 5 gallons is a ton. In the end you're better off with pressurized CO2. Even dosing Excel is expensive.


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## Indeed (Jan 28, 2011)

Well i am hoping to dose Metricide until i can afford a co2 tank system. Metricide is actually very cheap and potent, a gallon should last me some time. (the 5gal was a experiment more than a serious endeavor)


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## outcast (Jul 4, 2007)

for a 29 gallon tank i was pushing 35 ppm Co2 using a 3L diy jello co2 set up. Its lifetime was 3 months, no to shabby imo for a few bucks of materials and having to wait over night for it to congeal. Since it was a too high output for my liking my next batch i balanced at 25 ppm and it lasted around 4 months. So perhaps using 3 large cranberry juice jugs of jello co2 each offset a week would give the output needed.

as for your lighting, its unnecessary to go high light. as long as you get enough par on your substrate level (40-60 PAR imo), you'll grow pretty much all the plants perfectly fine. Save the high light to people who love trimming their plants 3 times a week and wasting money on energy, ferts and co2 refills.

As for the gluts. Its false information that ferns melt from it. I keep needle leaf, phillipines, windelov, and normal type of java fern, oh and bolbitus aswell. This is a 4x recommended dosed metricide tank no co2. Java ferns tend to go brown if your nitrates hit 0, lowering the light back into the medium thresh hold and/or increasing EI ferts would solve this.

Why would they go brown when you only dose gluts and stay fine when you not? because when you dont have any carbon source, so the plants nutrient uptake is limited. Nitrate wouldn't be exhausted. The drawback to this scenerio is you didn't adjust the lights so there will be PAR available for algae to grow. 

I see gluts as perfect means to supply carbon for those who can't afford the upfront cost of pressurized or have no way to get it refilled when needed.


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