# too much information about substrates!



## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

i'm overwhelmed...i'm setting up a new tank and can't decide on a substrate. if you LOVE your substrate and it WORKS (ie. healthy plants), can you tell me about it! undecided on going low- or high- tech but atm plan on starting low tech with ferts and excel.


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## Sierra255 (Sep 13, 2007)

I just replaced my Fluorite with Eco-Complete. It's been less than a week, so my sample size isn't that big, but so far, I love it. I didn't like the Fluorite because it would kick up a cloud of dust every time I disturbed it, plus I didn't really care for the red color. I like the black much better. Good substrate otherwise. The Eco-Complete seems to be completely clean, straight out of the bag.


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

Are you on a budget? Are you in a rush? Is color important to you?

You can always go the expensive route... Eco complete or etc.

You can try an inert cheap substrate such as Turface Pro league, Soil Master Select, 3M colorquartz, etc.

Or (my personnel preference) you can make your own Mineralized Top Soil substrate and "cap" it with one of the cheap inert substrates from above.


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## Franzi (Dec 7, 2009)

I got a 5lb bucket from aquariumplants.com and it seems to be working out well. My plants went from tiny to huge and carpet plants have spit out runners left and right.

Don't forget though, it's not just the substrate which will give you healthy plants


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## trackhazard (Aug 24, 2006)

I like quikrete all purpose sand washed out so the super fine particles are gone. Its cheap and looks nice adn natural. It has a neutral overall tan color but isn't completely uniform. For places where the substrate needs to be deeper and the sand won't pile up as nice, I've been using Caribsea Flora Max midnight which looks like crushed lava rock with a nice brownish black color and pairly uniform particle size. 

-Charlie


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

I hear ya Rooted. Made me nuts when I was just starting out. The questions TopFrog asked are relavant first. If you've read many of the threads here, you're probably confused because virtually anything works...if you are going to fertilize. 

Are you a DIY'er. Rather have the simplicity of a retail product? Know what kind of plants you want to grow? Thought about color?


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## jmhart (Mar 14, 2008)

Rooted said:


> undecided on going low- or high- tech but atm plan on starting low tech with ferts and excel.



On a side note, if you go low-tech (ie low light) you don't need a lot of fertilizers...just a trace mix thrown in once a week or so.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

My favorite substrates are Flourite blacks (you just have to rinse Flourite well before use) and MTS capped with Flourite black.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Should point out that 3M colorquartz is no longer made and that whatever is lying around is all that is left. There is NONE locally for me, now (unless you want green)


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

Good responses...in sum, it's all good and depends on what we do after we put the plants in it.

yes, color matters (no neon pink please, no offense pink substrate users). I like dark and/or natural (I was also considering turface). i also don't mind plain old gravel, not sure how fine to make it since i want to have some cories or dwarf cories. not on a budget (however i won't spend hundreds of dollars) or in a rush. 

@topfrog: can you explain what the heck you mean by this: "Or (my personnel preference) you can make your own Mineralized Top Soil substrate and "cap" it with one of the cheap inert substrates from above." appreciate it! sorry, that went right over my head but sounded like good stuff.

in my 29 i used flourite "complete" or something like that. my plant growth was phenomenal under the high lighting that the lfs encouraged me to buy (and not knowing otherwise i just did whatever they told me, ha ha) but then everything started dying off, turning brown and yellow. so i've adjusted everything but want to avoid a frontloaded success in plant growth followed by a downer period. does that make sense?

still overwhelmed but now i know i won't make any fatal errors that are irreparable.


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## edlab03 (May 19, 2009)

i just purchased Flourite Dark from petstore . com for $16.19 per bag. You get free shipping if you purchase over $75. What surprised me is that there is no extra heavyweight charge. My total was $97.49 including shipping(the only thing they do add is insurance which was only $0.35) for 6 bags.


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## Nate McFin (Mar 19, 2009)

Best advice regarding substrate choice I ever got was from Hoppy on my first post here. Go with the one you like best as it will make you want to be involved with the tank. Ultimately your involvement in the tank is going to make or break it. So if you like the LOOK of a certain substrate and it fits your style (ie-high light/low light) do it.


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

Mineral Top Soil capped with whatever....plants love the stuff.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Rooted said:


> @topfrog: can you explain what the heck you mean by this: "Or (my personnel preference) you can make your own Mineralized Top Soil substrate and "cap" it with one of the cheap inert substrates from above." appreciate it! sorry, that went right over my head but sounded like good stuff.


Check out the sticky at the top of this forum, it has info on how to make MTS. roud:


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

MTS sounds like a lot of work, it really isn't. You will never regret it, plants love it, lasts forever, and you still cap it with whatever of your liking. I have 4 tanks set up like this, and my plants are growing great.


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

okay, so i have read the mts link and it sounds like a very complete source of minerals for the plants. questions about this method:

1. how in the world do you fill your tank (initially and during wc) without kicking up a bunch of mud? almost seems as tho you'd need a dropper in those first few inches.

2. how often to replenish the minerals in the substrate? are regular fertilizers still needed? 

3. are there specific brands of top soil to use that don't contain fertilizers and things that will ultimately harm my fish?

4. can anyone recommend a fine gravel as my front and top layer? i have been looking for some time now and all i can find are courser gravels.

5. can anyone tell me the difference between this and aqua soil (are they even in the same category?)

thanks!


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

1 - You cap the soil with 2" or so of something else (I use 3M color quartz, hard to find now, they stopped making it), so the soil is the bottom layer of your tank. I use a python for WC's, when water enters the tank, I make sure it sprays on the wall of the tank so I don't "dent" the cap and spray up any soil. When first filling the tank, place a dish on the substrate, and make sure the water entering the tank hits that dish, not the substrate. 

2 - I don't use any extra ferts but Excel in my smaller tanks (29g, 26g bow and a 3g nano). My 120g (which has pressurized co2) I do add a small amount of ferts weekly. I let my plants tell me what they need. 

3 - Read the thread again. Plain top soil, nothing but topsoil. If the 40lb bag costs more than $2, it's not the right stuff. 

4 - I like 3M color quartz best, but it's out of production, so really hard to find. Eco or Flourite work also. You can cap it with whatever you like the look of. 

5 - First, $$$$$. My 120g would have cost over 300$ for to set up with Aquasoil, MTS plus 3M cost me $100, big difference. Second, MTS has been proven to last 15+ years. From what I hear, Aquasoil lasts not nearly that long. From what I've read and heard, Aquasoil is an excellent substrate, but why pay that much $ when MTS works just as good?

The down side of MTS is making it. I'm redoing my 75g, and have to wait for the 2 feet of snow to melt to even think about it. But I'm going to wait, it's well worth it.


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## Delslo (Feb 5, 2010)

1. Put a plate down and pour the water on the plate
2. Depends on how strongly planted the tank is and how nutrient needing the plants are
3. From what I have read the cheap top soil found at Rona is the best
4. I am currently getting things together for a rescape and will be using eco-complete for my topper. Alot of people use flourite as a topper
5. Still unanswered. I believe that they are entirely different, but I'm not 100%.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rooted said:


> 5. can anyone tell me the difference between this and aqua soil (are they even in the same category?)
> 
> thanks!


I like ADA AS as it's not a two layered mess. 
Looks nice, similar to real aquatic sediments where nice aquatic weed growth occurs.
Cost a lot more, that's the bad part.
No prep required, but a wait peroid of about 1 month(same with mineralizing MTS however). Just pour it in, that's it.
Both should provide long term nutrient supply, however, after a few months, there's not much Nitrogen left in either. (This has been verified via independent analysis and my own a number of times).

So dosing KNO3 would be wise and most water column ferts for that matter. I start dosing right away so I extend the life and reduce the draw from a sediment with NPK etc.

ADA has a lot more clay content than Top soils and will bind and have a better CEC I think over time. You can also use something like osmocoat for long term ferts on the bottom, many soil mixes have this added as does ADA power sand. Last about 6-12 months. I use 5 grams per sqft.

I uproot and reslope the sediments, I move plants around etc, some do not mind 2 layers or more. Some make a mess of things. But if you are careful, top the plants more than uproot, there should be no issue.

Soils, worm castings etc all work fairly well, I think many that have been bad at dosing the water column, or think lean is better in the water column find such methods much better because they limited growth, so when you add enough nutrient finally, you have good growth. Does not matter WHERE the nutrients are, just as long as you have enough total.

It's not nearly as mysterious as many make it out to be.
I suggest using rich sediments for a simple reason: adds a back in case you forget and added a buffer against limiting growth. I see no good reason not to use them.

Likewise, the same can be said about dosing the water column. 
Many have info overload there, but like sediments, once you do it 2-3 weeks, it's extremely easy, feeding your fish is more labor and much more difficult yet few complain there.

As far as most other nutrients, I think you will have enough for a few years, a good fish load and sometimes tap has some nutrients in there, particularly Mg/Ca/SO4 sometimes some N and P, you should be fine.

Also, with reduced light, you also have reduced CO2 demand and nutrient demand, this also reduces the rate of draw from the sediments and reduces the rates of growth of the plants, thereby extending the life and making management easier for many.

It's not all about the nutrients. There are some rather important larger factors that drive growth, starting with light. 

Less, leaner light, good non limiting CO2, good non limiting nutrients(both locations) will give you a high degree of nice growth with reduce effort, management issue. Then it will not matter much how long or what might be removed from the sediments over time, you got your bases covered on all fronts, that's a best management practice.

But I do not expect the MTS to be that much different over time than ADA AS or delta wetland sediments and other sediment types I've tested.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

Wow thanks for the responses and thanks Tom for the nod to AS because incidentally I found a gal selling the exact quantity I needed to stock my 10 gallon rimless for about $30, and I have a nice thick layer of that topped with flourite black gravel. Oh my goodness, I scored a bunch of plant cuttings from a plant swap over here and put them all in last night...what a difference planting in straight gravel (both my other tanks) and aquasoil. I even told my husband to stick his finger into the substrate and feel how soft it is (probably from the clay content). It was even still very cool down there.

BUT...I just bought a new 75 gallon (I'm a sucker for good deals!) and I'm thinking rather than spending the $200 for AS I'll try the MTS approach.

Admittedly some of your reply (Tom) went straight over my head...

--what is CEC?
--what does this mean: "So dosing KNO3 would be wise and most water column ferts for that matter. I start dosing right away so I extend the life and reduce the draw from a sediment with NPK etc." Should I be doing that in my tanks with regular gravel?
--I'm not used to dosing specific ferts as I use trace ferts in my two other tanks. Would this suffice assuming algae wasn't an issue and lights/CO2 are in balance?
--"less, leaner" light? less duration, leaner intensity?

One last question: assuming you are dosing the crap out of your tank and supplying appropriate levels of CO2, is there a ceiling to how much light (and nutrients and CO2) you can give? Can you do 10 watts per gallon (or whatever ridiculous amount of light) and balance out ferts and CO2 supply and grow giant monsters?

p.s. I agree...fertilizing the tank is just part of the fish feeding routine, nothing to complain about either!


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

bump...Tom? Anyone?

Feedback on post #20 much appreciated


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## stanny03 (Nov 5, 2009)

Aquarium Showroom? Crazy turnout this meet 

I'm no expert but here're a link on CEC -- http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/substrates/11575-how-cec-works.html

IMO, if you're getting good growth and aren't noticing any nutritional imbalance in the plants, then keep doing what you're doing. Your tank should be more or less balanced. Don't fix what ain't broken 

For your last question, to the best of my knowledge, there is always a ceiling. You have a trinity of Light, Nutrients, and CO2. If you were able to raise the 3 while keeping your balance, there is a point in which the limiting factor would be plant itself. 

Hope this helps


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

stanny03 said:


> Aquarium Showroom? Crazy turnout this meet


That was random...but yeah, that was insane! Hope you got what you went for (I did )



stanny03 said:


> For your last question, to the best of my knowledge, there is always a ceiling. You have a trinity of Light, Nutrients, and CO2. If you were able to raise the 3 while keeping your balance, there is a point in which the limiting factor would be plant itself.


Well said. Now that you put it that way, it seems so obvious!



stanny03 said:


> IMO, if you're getting good growth and aren't noticing any nutritional imbalance in the plants, then keep doing what you're doing. Your tank should be more or less balanced. Don't fix what ain't broken


Just want to make sure there aren't any deficiencies as a general pattern using AS that I should be aware of. It's a new tank, so far so good (well not really I'm still changing something about it every day, right now trying to find lights).

Thanks, i'll check out the cec link : )


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## KSASTER2 (Feb 22, 2010)

I'm by all means a newbie here but I just setup my tank with...

Carib Sea Instant Aquarium Peace River (grain size is 1mm-2mm)

Stuff looks awsome, I have some pics in my threa if you want to take a look.

http://www.tropicalfishkeeping.com/aquarium-plants/new-30g-planted-37934/

I ordered from Dr Foster they have flat rate shipping at 8.99 so it doesn't matter how heavy your shippment is.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+9805+21412&pcatid=21412


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i have used eco complete, ada aquasoil and MTS capped w/ play sand and gravel. i can say that for me, the aquasoil grew plants the best. it also breaks down over time and can kick up a lot dust when uprooting/planting. it's nutrients also peter out after a couple of years. 
eco complete has virtually no nutrients and i ended up doing more dosing than i wanted and also found myself using root tabs. it does look nice though.
so far, my favorite substrate is mineralized topsoil capped with sand and gravel. i don't dose my low tech tank very often at all. i'm only dosing 1/2 ei in co2 enriched highish light tank and am having great results. for me, MTS just has the best cost vs. reward.

in short, just use what makes the most sense for you. you want the best, go with aquasoil or gla's plant grower bed. you want a dark substrate, get some eco complete or the dark fourite. if you want to go cheap get some pool filter or play sand.

edit - i should have read ALL the way down page before posting. looks like plantbrain pretty much summed everything up.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

i should have read a little further down the page...



Rooted said:


> Wow thanks for the responses and thanks Tom for the nod to AS because incidentally I found a gal selling the exact quantity I needed to stock my 10 gallon rimless for about $30, and I have a nice thick layer of that topped with flourite black gravel. Oh my goodness, I scored a bunch of plant cuttings from a plant swap over here and put them all in last night...what a difference planting in straight gravel (both my other tanks) and aquasoil. I even told my husband to stick his finger into the substrate and feel how soft it is (probably from the clay content). It was even still very cool down there.
> 
> BUT...I just bought a new 75 gallon (I'm a sucker for good deals!) and I'm thinking rather than spending the $200 for AS I'll try the MTS approach.
> 
> Admittedly some of your reply (Tom) went straight over my head...





> --what is CEC?


i can't remember what it stands for but i think it's your substrate's ability to hold nutrients.



> --what does this mean: "So dosing KNO3 would be wise and most water column ferts for that matter. I start dosing right away so I extend the life and reduce the draw from a sediment with NPK etc." Should I be doing that in my tanks with regular gravel?


he's just saying that you shouldn't really on your substrate's nutrients to provide all you ferts and it's a good idea to start dosing right away to help preserve the nutrients in you substrate. 



> --I'm not used to dosing specific ferts as I use trace ferts in my two other tanks. Would this suffice assuming algae wasn't an issue and lights/CO2 are in balance?


if you don't have algae problems and you aren't experiencing any deficiencies, keep doing what you're doing! 



> --"less, leaner" light? less duration, leaner intensity?


huh?



> One last question: assuming you are dosing the crap out of your tank and supplying appropriate levels of CO2, is there a ceiling to how much light (and nutrients and CO2) you can give? Can you do 10 watts per gallon (or whatever ridiculous amount of light) and balance out ferts and CO2 supply and grow giant monsters?


for all intensive purposes, you will most likely find a ceiling of tank management that will prove way too much work. 



> p.s. I agree...fertilizing the tank is just part of the fish feeding routine, nothing to complain about either!


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

wow, this thread has really broadened my horizons quite a bit...thanks for the feedback everyone. 

coming soon...more substrate questions about my _next_ tank :icon_wink


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## stanny03 (Nov 5, 2009)

NP. Are you a member? SFBAAPS.org

Definitely join if you haven't. A LOT of great people and good info on there. Totally worth it 



Rooted said:


> That was random...but yeah, that was insane! Hope you got what you went for (I did )
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rooted said:


> Admittedly some of your reply (Tom) went straight over my head...
> 
> --what is CEC?


Google it.



> --what does this mean: "So dosing KNO3 would be wise and most water column ferts for that matter. I start dosing right away so I extend the life and reduce the draw from a sediment with NPK etc." Should I be doing that in my tanks with regular gravel?


Yep.



> --I'm not used to dosing specific ferts as I use trace ferts in my two other tanks. Would this suffice assuming algae wasn't an issue and lights/CO2 are in balance?


Maybe, maybe you are just limited with nutrients.
Unless you add enough to rule out a limiting factor, you really cannot say much there.

Given your general dosing routine, the sediment sounds like a good method for you personally, since it requires the least effort once done and finished.

Still, dosing the water column is pretty dang easy.
It's the light and CO2 folks have issues with, not the nutrients unless they simply add too little.

I think many see excellent results using ADA AS and soil, clays etc, Earthworm castings, osmocoat, Jobes sticks, what have you..............
because they dosed too lean to begin with, perhaps out of fear, maybe from the old myths and warnings of algae and woe.

None of which I can find any support for.

Plants will use nutrients in the water column and the sediment.
So use both locations.



> --"less, leaner" light? less duration, leaner intensity?


I'd stick with less intensity, this seems to help more folks, waste less energy and electric bill cost, less initial cost etc, much much easie rto balance nutrients/longer lasting nutrients that are added and so on down the line, CO2 is easier, sediments work better, if you forget to dose, it's much less critical etc.

These are human issues and they all happen to all of us at some point.



> One last question: assuming you are dosing the crap out of your tank and supplying appropriate levels of CO2, is there a ceiling to how much light (and nutrients and CO2) you can give? Can you do 10 watts per gallon (or whatever ridiculous amount of light) and balance out ferts and CO2 supply and grow giant monsters?


Careful what you wish for, ask Jack
Yes, there are upper bounds, but they are increasingly tougher to keep up on. A lot of aquatic plants are serious weeds that grow very rapidly during the wet warm seasons. Light can be up to 400-600micromol where plants saturate under non limiting CO2.

Typical lower light tanks are in the 30-50 ranges, high light, maybe 80-140 ranges at the sediments. 40 is a good range general target.
Full sun is 2000 at noon in the semi tropics etc.

So even at the highest levels, aquatic plants only use maybe 1/4 full sun, they are low light plants.

Tropica has some good articles on light also, check that and the Biology of aquatic plants(there are 4 parts to it). Perhaps the best aquarist articles on CO2 and light anywhere.



> p.s. I agree...fertilizing the tank is just part of the fish feeding routine, nothing to complain about either!


Not to take _anything_ at all away from using sediment fertilization, soils etc.........but there is a lot more to it than just one thing. We all know this but often get caught up a bit too much on one thing.

Still, it's wise to use soils etc, but it's also wise to look at the whole picture and what we can do to make the method easier and more suited to our own specific goals. This way you maximize the soil method and can take a nice pretty picture of the results.

But be careful, do not suggest it's all about the dosing method for the water column, or the use of mineralized top soil, it might be more due to CO2/light, general care, plant species etc. There's rarely a single smoking gun at the scene here. If there is, it's more often CO2/too much light.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Rooted (Feb 8, 2010)

thanks, tom. seems like it will usually boil down to co2 and lighting... i need to simplify my life and focus on those, and if issues come up (algae, bad plant growth) i'll focus on the other stuff, like dosing specific nutrients.


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