# Whats up with the bettas?



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

All the sudden in the last month 1/2 (and I don't mind this) a lot of people have come on here asking about bettas. Care, why it has a certain illness, etc. And I always wonder, did this person do any background research? but I never ask, well nvm I do most of the time lol, So in return for people who didn't here you go, some good research to look into on betta care and disease identification as well as treatment:
The Ultimate One Page Guide to Betta Fish Care
Better Betta-Keeping | Details | Articles | TFH Magazine®
basic betta care
Also, minimum tank size for a betta isn't 2.5 gallons, it is *5 gallons.* 
here is the Illness ID links, if you really cannot tell the illness your betta fish has, contact someone on the forum, or post a thread in the "Fish" forum or "General Discussion" section. Treatments may vary
Mycobacteria - BettaSource.com
Bubbles & Bettas: Diseases
https://www.earthsfriends.com/betta-fish-diseases/
*******************************************************
Please post your own desirable information on the type of fish listed: Betta's (of any kind) 
Nate


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Anyone else have any advice or opinions? we got a lot of comments so far(lol).
As for the people who voted 3 to 4 gallons is ideal, strongly disagree. but you probably know that since you read what I wrote and hopefully followed the links just to get an idea of ideal betta care. 
Thanks
Nate


----------



## Yande! (Mar 15, 2017)

"Anyone else have any advice or opinions? we got a lot of comments so far(lol)."

Well you asked..

As a Newbie, You sure scared me off from commenting, even asking!! Especially after reading that other thread taht I read, that you ripped into.. "Fin rot or just ripped fins.."

Think I'll head to another forum!! "Wannabee Guru's," "Bullies" such as this are a major turnoff in any forum, especially, for newbies such as me.

It's a shame we are all not that smart or experienced as he. Movin' on..


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Yande! said:


> "Anyone else have any advice or opinions? we got a lot of comments so far(lol)."
> 
> Well you asked..
> 
> ...


Thanks for answering the questions yande!  I don't really pay attention to my "title" or whatever its called either so I must say I disagree that everyone who has replied a bunch of times is an ass


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

This is my unreasonable rant but none the less I'm going to say it. They should start including test kits in all aquarium packages and make it a requirement to purchase for anyone who is owning their first tank. Some will say its the responsibility of the owner to educate themselves but I think if you are going to sell, then you have a duty to provide the critical info needed to care for these pets and lets face it the LFS's don't even equip their staff with good knowledge for the most part. Its like throwing someone off the street into a cockpit and saying here ya go, today we will be flying to France and you have 200 passengers good luck!

End Rant

#1 killer poor water quality

Dan


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

@Dman911 very true, I also thought it was strange how there is no law, and im not giving an opinion on this as I don't have one, on the amount of a certain fish you buy.
Like tetras, why isn't there a law saying "well since its a schooling fish, only can purchase sixe or more" for example, now I have an opinion, I don't like that because if you have a huge school and you want to add 1 for whatever reason, then your screwed kind of. But I get the concept of it which is good, but pros and cons, for serious hobbyists cons take over pros. 
They have that law with Chickens now, six or more. I have like 30 chickens not including ducks and I went to Tractor supply, couldn't buy 1, not 2, not 3, not 4, not 5 , but you could buy six. its a law for chickens because they flock or school... 
Confusing! I get that law though because if your daughter goes out and buys a baby chicken just for easter, then chucks it the next day now what. your death rates of chickens increase. 100 percent love your idea though, its not a "kit" if it doesn't contain the things a fish needs to live. Including spot on water quality.


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Yande! said:


> "Anyone else have any advice or opinions? we got a lot of comments so far(lol)."
> 
> Well you asked..
> 
> ...


While I understand where you are coming from TBH sometimes the blatant cold hard truth often is much more effective at getting the severity across. Sugar coating it may actually be doing more harm than good. This forum is one of the best out there and has tons of very knowledgeable people so its a shame that you feel pride is more important than info and I do not mean that disrespectfully at all, some people can handle criticism better than others. Sometimes heated discussions happen over facts and opinions but its this very process that leads to better understanding and more knowledge of everything being discussed. If you ask a question its unlikely you will get ripped into by any members in my experience unless you have knowingly done something someone considers offensive in one way or another or you are giving what some consider misinformation. Even at that there is knowledge to be gained. Fear of criticism will always exist and that in itself is a shame because it helps everyone learn not just the people discussing it.

Dan


----------



## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

My personal opinion,I don't even like a 5 gallon for a betta,I'd prefer a 10..especially a cube shaped one.I have one right now in a 5,and it just seems to small to me.He's going into my nuvo 10 as soon as it's ready.

I think many times things we say can come off very severe,because when typed,they can be taken as more critical then we mean.Add to that the fact that people on here are from all over the world,and different cultures,and criticism can sound much different when read, than what's intended by the author.


----------



## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

What I've learned through the years on being on forums is that many people *DO* care, just not everyone is good at expressing it in a friendly manner. I mean, does every single post need smilies to come across as friendly? Some people are just better at handing out the honey instead of the vinegar.  Myself, personally? I just piss people off without even trying to... lol Even when it's over the *SAFETY* of the animals! Provide facts and information that isn't even rude in nature, and people still get pissed, block/ignore me and leave. That kind of reaction though does spark a nerve, and hopefully, with any luck, that person is more willing to do research once they've calmed down.

For me at least, the last thing I want to say to someone is "I told you so", but I have had people tell me I was right. Some people thought I was crazy in my suggestions but what I suggested worked?!?!?!?!


I come from a different hobby background though. I could, for the most part, care less about fish! They just don't tickle my fancy! Sure, I like looking at them, but that doesn't make me want to keep them. They are just not my forte. The hobby that I do come from though has some of the same issues as fish keeping does! Too small of enclosures, inadequate diets, an unhealthy environment (be it bad water, or bad air!), and so many more issues!




(in regards to fish)


In most circumstances, I feel as if a 10 gallon is the smallest that most people should go, even for tiny shrimp. My boss has a female betta in a 3 gallon. She did do some research at least, as the betta has a heater and a filter. I managed to snag a somewhat larger tank (sold as a 3 gallon, seems closer to a 5.5 gallon, but one in store that looks exactly the same being sold as a 6.6 gallon tank?) and that may become the female bettas new home. Although not a 10, still better than a 3! Just gotta convince her to get live plants for the new tank. The 3g did have live plants, but then they were switched out for fake ones and trying to get her to go back to live ones. (boss doesn't quite understand the importance of plants and how they are better than fake... but she's willing to learn!)


When people are passionate about a subject, things do tend to get heated, unfortunately. Still, a lot could be learned from a good debate from opposite fractions that may not be learned otherwise.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

I guess emoji's where invented for this reason, so people can tell what your facial expression looks like. Even if your not yellow and have a perfectly circle head lmao


----------



## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

@BettaBettas 
Im not trying to be rude here, but I think you should refrain from answering questions about illnesses if your response is going to be linked to google, and have sections copy and pasted. People are looking for what someone has done to fix the illness, not what some random internet site says will work. They came to the forum for a reason. If they wanted google, they would google.
Also, you do come across as arrogant in many posts, you are fairly new to fishkeeping yourself (Multiple bettas and a gourami in a 10g). I have seen some things that I disagree with you on, but I don't rip into people, especially when they are new. 
Also, how have you racked up 1800 posts in 7 months? I have been here for 1 and a half years and only have 1300. Quality, not quantity.
The forum title means nothing @Yande! I could post garbage on every thread and be a guru in a month, some of the smartest people on this forum have few posts, while some who don't know what they are doing have many more.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

sohankpatel said:


> @*BettaBettas*
> Im not trying to be rude here, but I think you should refrain from answering questions about illnesses if your response is going to be linked to google, and have sections copy and pasted. People are looking for what someone has done to fix the illness, not what some random internet site says will work. They came to the forum for a reason. If they wanted google, they would google.
> Also, you do come across as arrogant in many posts, you are fairly new to fishkeeping yourself (Multiple bettas and a gourami in a 10g). I have seen some things that I disagree with you on, but I don't rip into people, especially when they are new.
> Also, how have you racked up 1800 posts in 7 months? I have been here for 1 and a half years and only have 1300. Quality, not quantity.
> The forum title means nothing @*Yande!* I could post garbage on every thread and be a guru in a month, some of the smartest people on this forum have few posts, while some who don't know what they are doing have many more.


 No I understand!  ill admit im fairly new to this plant thing, before I came to the forum I had that tank setup and it wasn't better than shi* lol! not afraid to admit that. If you (or anyone else) thinks im doing something they thing is wrong shoot me a pm and ill be happy to address that issue that someone has with me. Thank you for telling me this though, reason I do post thinks is to increase the effort (which is lacking now it appears) in researching, and I know this forum is Apart of that research, and its probably the best place to go for assistance. but with some things, common sense can solve. No one apparently read my backstory though about why I had that betta and gourami, I had an arson fire and the only thing I owned was the socks on my feet and the boxers i was wearing and they lived so I couldn't afford a tank, I had to cram them and for a temporary home they where fine, they lived until age got them. One gourami died to age, the betta died to age (he was 5 years old, oldy!), I sold the 2 gourami's to someone who could give a better life to them in the mean time. 
This is what I mean though, you didn't know I had a house fire, you didn't know the reason I had done that. I knew of fish way before I came here I was just getting into the plant thing. All the fish I have had except for the corys I now own have been my fish from years ago in a house fire. Outdoor tanks, long ago. I don't know if I agree about the arrogant thing though. Im pretty sure I just come off as rude to some people because they read it that way, im stating things. And if I ask something, and someone gives me half that answer, im going to ask why not give me the other half. And why does it matter how much I have posted? You make it sound as I have always posted such link? I admit I do so but as well I give my own experience and information on some if not considered most.
All those posts i have consisted of these things/items:
Helping
Stating
Having long conversations you can see on journals
my own journal
pictures on the photo forum
going through old journals from 2012 and saying "wow that's a fine tank!" 
Helping someone no one else helped in this thread http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/1141378-input-carpet-plants.html#post10035786
asking questions
etc, the above is a magical realm called "Research"
That to me is an unnecessary thing to "go after" your pick pocketing IMO now at worthless arguments. Now im not trying to go at anyone here but as yan. said about the guru thing, that's senseless to me, I don't care about titles?? who said I did? what kind of argument is that of which you (not directly you) are holding?
Thank you for telling me this sohankpatel, I do hope you reply to this so I can further understand your concerns for my writings. 
Nate


----------



## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

@BettaBettas
The reason I mention post count is because when I first started, I had a tendency to follow what those that had a high post count said. I thought that a high post count meant that someone knew what they were talking about. Also, necro-posting (Posting on old threads) is considered bad forum etiquette on many forums. 
Post count was a pretty worthless argument, I admit to that.
Thanks for keeping this civil.
I think I remember something about your house fire back in September. Did you end up finding who did it?


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

sohankpatel said:


> @*BettaBettas*
> The reason I mention post count is because when I first started, I had a tendency to follow what those that had a high post count said. I thought that a high post count meant that someone knew what they were talking about. Also, necro-posting (Posting on old threads) is considered bad forum etiquette on many forums.
> Post count was a pretty worthless argument, I admit to that.
> Thanks for keeping this civil.
> I think I remember something about your house fire back in September. Did you end up finding who did it?


 Thank you very much @sohankpatel for understanding what I was saying, in the manner I meant for it to be in. And thank you much more for asking about my house, no. We knew who did it hours after the fire. He was on drugs at the time he burnt my house down, killing all the animals I own and priceless family items. (long story), When he was running away my neighbor had a gun draw with him, and my neighbor shot him in the arm of which he held his own gun. Making his arm almost completely detach. He never went to jail but yet is living the life right now, at his moms house. I would bet my life he will never go to jail.
Regarding the post count statement, when I left those comments, I was doing research. Reading journals from long ago, any date really, to see what other people did to their own tanks (specifically dutch) to make them better in some sort of way. Thought even though it was a long time ago, I could leave a generous comment without being bashed, while updating it so other people can realize that this journal or thread has good information in it, go check it out its something I (being the person) haven't not seen before on here or anywhere else! basically, promoting the forum with quality information which has been forgotten, one of the biggest journals on here and Im sure some people know this, is this guy from india, who built an indoor pond basically that was I think 750 gallons, planted it with all sorts of plants making it lush! took him a year I think or more to make (cant remember exactly). Why do I mention this? because its proof I learned from it and so can other people.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

just thought of this to, I have rounded up 500 likes in those months, that's pretty achieving I would say on this forum. 
But this topic is regarding not only to me but also the fish. I must say those 2 people who voted 3 to 4 gallons didn't read any of the links I posted or anything when they hit that button... Could be mistaken though idk


----------



## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

Back on topic... I've heard that in the wild bettas patrol a 3 metre area (about 10 foot square). But it's the same with all fish, people always want to know the smallest tank they can keep as many fish as possible. And yep, a betta can survive in a jar, which is an unfortunate advantage for the betta because of course humans take advantage of this.


----------



## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

@ambe I have heard smaller, mostly because their natural habitat is extremely dense. The area where one betta actually resides in much smaller, that 10 sq ft area is probably populated by multiple fish that can't see because of very dense vegetation.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

I hate how people do that, put a betta in a small vase for example. Then uses the excuse "well they do this in the wild"
My comeback would easily be:
So bettas grow a magic glass vase shell not attached to their body oh wow


----------



## justinmo (Nov 3, 2016)

I like the thread but I hate "betta care 101" (third link) from the BETTATALK forums. It's filled with IMO really bad information and I don't think it's something beginners should look at. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

justinmo said:


> I like the thread but I hate "betta care 101" (third link) from the BETTATALK forums. It's filled with IMO really bad information and I don't think it's something beginners should look at.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Thank you for your input justinmo, I will scan it over again and clarify this issue of the thread with you afterwards.

Update: @justinmo thank you, re read the article and realized the word bowl was profusely used... Removed link and replaced. If you have anymore suggestions or recommended links just tell me and ill shove them up there with credit.


----------



## lotsalotls (Jun 18, 2014)

Pride and denial have a lot to do with why people don't take advance well, not just for the health of their bettas/pets but for themselves.

On to fish...
I personally think a 2-2.5 gallon tank is fine for a betta if you do it right. Obviously, the bigger the better, but I do not view it as cruel to keep one in a tank less than 5 gallons. I think one main issue with smaller tanks is that many people that have just started out in the hobby don't know how/don't have enough experience to setup and maintain one properly. This is a 2.5 gallon I had awhile back. The betta was as "happy" as a betta can be, doing what bettas do. He is in my 10 gallon now though. 
I really wish I wouldn't have gotten rid of that sunset hygro though. It was such a pretty pink.


----------



## Natasha (Nov 22, 2015)

So I'm not quite sure what "non-influenced" opinions are, but I think I'll offer my thoughts.


I too get frustrated with repeated questions of the same sort around bettas and their care, especially since there are so many threads on the topic. But I think here is where our thoughts on the matter diverge. Based on our individual inputs when we recently crossed paths on a thread last night, I think we see things a bit differently. There seem to be some themes in everyone's frustrations about this so I've tried to keep my response coherent with a simple breakdown.

1. The issue of people not caring about their fish.
To me, if someone has taken the time to sign up on this website and ask a question/post pictures, that shows me they do care about the well-being of their fish. Simple as that. A lot of people would let their fish die and blame the fish store for a sick/dying fish, so anyone taking any ownership of the situation and looking for ways to improve the situation is A-OK in my book.

2. The issue of people being ignorant and making bad decisions.
I think you have to realize that most people do zero research when they get any pet--and this includes animals far more complex such as cats and dogs. Its the reality of the current state of society. I, too, would love everyone to be informed before taking on the responsibility of any animal, but that's usually not the case. People in the fish hobby often drill water quality issues, which is fair given its the #1 reason for sick fish, but I think we are blinded by our own knowledge. For a lay person, it often never occurs to them the complexities of water (after all, it all looks the same!) The baseline level of chemistry knowledge is basically nil in the general population, so you can't blame people for not being brilliant water chemists. I should add that the vast majority of us have a history of mistakes, so I just don't think its our place to crucify others for ill-informed decisions or simply not knowing. 
Closely related to this issue is people's limited ability to apply what they have read. As an example, say someone is unsure if their fish has ich, so they post a picture. There is a fair degree of complex pattern recognition in diagnosing fish, particularly since 99% of this is based in observation. To me, you just can't fault people for not being experts in fish diagnostics when they just entered the hobby.

3. The issue of people not taking advice.
I wish I had more to say on this issue other than: welcome to human nature. We are naturally resistant to change, in particular if it costs us in some manner (more time, more money, less "fun"). I think we are all familiar with this in our daily lives--sometimes people just need to learn the hard way before advice is uptaken.


I also just wanted to make a general comment about how I find your posts come across, since this seems to have come up and I think you genuinely care how you come across. I personally find a few things off-putting. First, I have to say, using underlining and bold functions in text, just like USING ALL CAPS, almost never comes across well. Using italics is much better received if you need to draw some attention within a block of text. Next, I think we all need to be careful about confusing opinion with fact. Prime example, your statement "minimum tank size... is 5 gallons". To be fair, there is no real literature to prove this is the case, and going on a witch hunt for the people who voted for 3-4 gallon tanks is just not necessary. We all know tank size is not so simple anyways, I think most people would agree a 4 gallon shallow tank is better than a 5 gallon column-style tank. Finally, responding to a thread with what can only be seen as a rant about the posts of others isn't so slick (this is in direct reference to this post)

Just my two cents.
EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean for such an aggressive amount of text. I'm wordy today.


----------



## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

sohankpatel said:


> @ambe I have heard smaller, mostly because their natural habitat is extremely dense. The area where one betta actually resides in much smaller, that 10 sq ft area is probably populated by multiple fish that can't see because of very dense vegetation.


Yep, that makes sense. Perhaps it's more to do with how far they will venture, rather than their actual "home".


----------



## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

Also, pet shops and the marketing of tanks have a lot to answer for. You can hardly blame a new owner who comes across problems when they were sold a tiny tank with a picture of a betta (or goldfish) on the box. Regards cycling, it's usually wait for 24 hours or some rubbish lol.

Your average person/family visit these shops and presume that the staff are telling them the correct info.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

@ambe your giving some high quality information, hope you realize that lol


----------



## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

BettaBettas said:


> @ambe your giving some high quality information, hope you realize that lol


Haha thanks!


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Tbh I think this thread has gathered a bunch of legitimate serious information. well... So So


----------



## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

What I consider a decent Betta tank. 10 and above gallons. Heater. Light. Filter. Maybe some plants.


----------



## Fishbeard (Aug 20, 2016)

@BettaBettas I agree with @Yande!, and that's kind of sad...

Alright, I was going to be the bigger person here, but honestly this is getting silly. You are being pretty rude to people across this site that simply want help with their sick fish. It's rarely if ever the people that have a lot of experience (especially with fish diseases) and are just looking for help in every way they can think of in many cases. They come here for help, and they are greeted by someone who jumps to conclusions about their situation, knowledge and their ability to make choices for their pet, as well as their morals.

I believe you're referring to my thread in your original post. I'm kinda pissed, since you were anything but helpful throughout my tough experience with my betta. You originally jumped to conclusions about my fish and told me it was going to die, and continued to yell at me and others in the thread when I needed help and constructive input. And your quick diagnosis was wrong (it didn't have dropsy or ich, and never showed signs of ich at all). I did research for a week (as well as received compassionate help from others), and finally figured out that the treatment you recommended (and that I chose to use initially) was not going to help, and by that time it was too late for my betta. When I said he had taken a turn for the worse, you told me to smash it with a rock...

It seems odd that you would target people with sick pets. They are making the effort to ask for help, and you're choosing to tell them to quit asking? Assuming that they have not tried to research themselves isn't fair, because you have no idea, and instead choose to assume they are incompetent and foolish.

When someone uses their power (your supposed knowledge over a newbie) over others to make them feel bad about themselves, or to cause them grief, that's bullying. You are being a bully. Rethink how you are talking to people on this site. I may have learned my lesson about listening to you, I just hope others don't have to learn it the hard way.


----------



## EmeraldAlkaline (Feb 24, 2017)

Yande! said:


> "Anyone else have any advice or opinions? we got a lot of comments so far(lol)."
> 
> Well you asked..
> 
> ...


I have to somewhat agree with this opinion. You seem to be the betta police here on this forum, and start ripping into newbies or even veterans when you see something you don't like. Bully or not, it's toxic either way. Im not saying you're horrible, shame on you, I know you just care for the fish, but the delivery is not exactly the best way to educate people. 

As for the tank size, I hold firm with saying 2.5 gallons is the minimum. You may believe 5 gallons, but understand theres many many more sources than the one you always refer people to and a lot of conflicting opinions. obviously a bigger tank would be more ideal for a betta, but I think 2.5 gallons would not put stress on the fish. A teeny bowl or vase however is a different story. and I DO agree that they need filtration and heating. In fact, weather my pet store like it or not, I try to influence any customer i can looking for a betta tank to go bigger if need be and get a heater. But I believe if the 2.5 gallon has swimming space, a heater, filtration, and places for the betta to hide, it is fine for them. This is from my personal research and generalizations. 

Not all newbies or simply people with questions are too lazy to do research. Just because they don't follow your exact guidelines doesn't mean they aren't trying to do the best for their fish.


EDIT: And in response to Fishbeard's post, I agree with him too. You jump to conclusions, jump down peoples throat, and assume everyone is inexperienced and evil to their fish. It does seem you try to target people with sick fish too. Is this some kind of personal quest to try and discourage people from keeping betas because you don't want 'lesser' people or people with different opinions keeping them as pets?


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Fishbeard said:


> @*BettaBettas* I agree with @*Yande!*, and that's kind of sad...
> 
> Alright, I was going to be the bigger person here, but honestly this is getting silly. You are being pretty rude to people across this site that simply want help with their sick fish. It's rarely if ever the people that have a lot of experience (especially with fish diseases) and are just looking for help in every way they can think of in many cases. They come here for help, and they are greeted by someone who jumps to conclusions about their situation, knowledge and their ability to make choices for their pet, as well as their morals.
> 
> ...


I was referring to you, not "afraid" to say that. "smashing it with a rock" I never said, I said rock to rock. Thank you for trying to make me look any worse lol. This thread has become a venting thread for people -> to me which Im fine with, you make me sound in your writing that im a horrible person who yells at people for no reason. I already talked with numerous people about me being to uptight and I totally understood and am correcting myself, we get that. we don't need another person bitching about me I don't think... I already said I know they are making effort to help, which is good. Im talking about people who neglect to use anything, which you missed. A lot of people miss what im saying, im not exactly a straight writer r.i.p. I 100 percent disagree with your power statement, if people feel bad about something I say. They need something because I have seen people get pissed at me, they will send me a PM, minutes later we are friends. which is something I love about this forum, the amount of communication. My first "assumption" was your fish had ich, I never said "he has ich" I never say the words He Has, to anyone because just like you, some body may throw my ass under the bus. I never said Look and listen to me only, there is a bunch of people on this thread who have extremely amazing knowledge I couldn't even get close to having. I wish I had that knowing but I don't lol. In others words im saying everyone's reply I understood but your reply to me was complete rubbish because you didn't quote anything I said, not only that but you threw me under the bus numerous times in your writing. I also already said I don't find the titles "over commanding" for other people, because im a wanna be guru or whatever doesn't mean I made that title, who am I to blame for having that title ? I never said "im a Wanna be guru so listen to me because within this thread I have a bigger postage rating than everyone else" again another thing you stated that threw me under the bus...
Thanks
Nate

Just saying, I want to thank @Natasha for actually being nice in what she said lol, I don't mind mean people im just saying lol. Thank you Natasha! (serious) and she stated things that where true and not attempting to pin me to the ground. People don't realize I think I have a heart, I help people to... I helped (and im just counting the people who actually said I helped) 4 people yesterday (or 3?) 



EmeraldAlkaline said:


> I have to somewhat agree with this opinion. You seem to be the betta police here on this forum, and start ripping into newbies or even veterans when you see something you don't like. Bully or not, it's toxic either way. Im not saying you're horrible, shame on you, I know you just care for the fish, but the delivery is not exactly the best way to educate people.
> 
> As for the tank size, I hold firm with saying 2.5 gallons is the minimum. You may believe 5 gallons, but understand theres many many more sources than the one you always refer people to and a lot of conflicting opinions. obviously a bigger tank would be more ideal for a betta, but I think 2.5 gallons would not put stress on the fish. A teeny bowl or vase however is a different story. and I DO agree that they need filtration and heating. In fact, weather my pet store like it or not, I try to influence any customer i can looking for a betta tank to go bigger if need be and get a heater. But I believe if the 2.5 gallon has swimming space, a heater, filtration, and places for the betta to hide, it is fine for them. This is from my personal research and generalizations.
> 
> ...



Thanks emerald for leaving a response with Enters so I can read it without getting lost lol! (joke of the day...)
I think many people, not including you, have just seen my post on the fin rot thread thinking I was mainly talking to the nice OP (sent a pm to him/her), and then they say "yea that post was out of wack" ill go back and edit it to make it nicer so to speak. I do understand not all people new to the hobby (including me bit ago) are not to lazy to do research. I don't have Guidelines though, and I don't think I said anything ever relating to someone not wanting to care for their fish. If you think I did, hit the quote button please. btw let me put a smiley in here so people know im not being sarcastic :grin2: apparently that's what its taking now. I don't target people with sick fish, I don't target at all, whatever that's referring to. I go to threads all over the forum! everywhere! its horrible I know... I look... at... JOUNRALS OMG. 
again im using the 100 percent thing, what you said here:
_ " Is this some kind of personal quest to try and discourage people from keeping betas because you don't want 'lesser' people or people with different opinions keeping them as pets"_
What the hell does that even mean lol, :grin2:, I am dedicating my life which I want to live to the fullest to discourage people from keeping fish, since I don't want lesser people or people with different opinions keeping them as pets. That's like calling me a person who wants everything to be alike in a nutshell lmao, most childish accusation I have seen on this forum. I guess I cant use the word "yet" anymore for that. But yes im obviously dedicating my life to that *insert sarcasm emoji here*

Also someone (forgot who) said I use caps a bunch like im yelling, I don't type thinking this is how I would sound, I type thinking someone will read this and the first thing they will see is...? So when I want something to stand out, I use caps and maybe bold it. When I quote someone I use italic (think its called...) to show this is a quote, what I was taught in Microsoft excel and word class. I feel very strongly you are trying to instigate with me  @EmeraldAlkaline


----------



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

BettaBettas said:


> .....Also someone (forgot who) said I use caps a bunch like im yelling, I don't type thinking this is how I would sound, I type thinking someone will read this and the first thing they will see is...? So when I want something to stand out, I use caps and maybe bold it. When I quote someone I use italic (think its called...) to show this is a quote, what I was taught in Microsoft excel and word class. I feel very strongly you are trying to instigate with me


May I politely disagree- to a lot of people, myself included, all-caps does feel like the writer is yelling. It feels aggressive. My brain just reads it that way, and I know I'm not alone. For emphasis because you want a certain point to really be noted, I would use bold or italics.

I wish you had put 10g in your poll, I would have picked that.

When I first starting keeping fish (after a long hiatus), I was one of those bad people- I had a betta in a one-gallon bowl. Found plenty of info online that said it was okay... In the winter moved to on top of my fridge where it would barely stay warm enough. I thought it was doing fine because I tested the water and got good params- no ammonia or nitrite, low nitrates- had a bit of plant in there. I even wrote a post on my blog about how to clean the bowl which I'm now kinda ashamed of. 

As soon as I learned better I moved the betta up to a 3.5 gal but quickly found out it was really difficult to keep stable. So moved up again to a ten. This was just because I couldn't keep the smaller tank cycled- but once I saw how much more active the fish was in a ten, how much more interesting its behavior, I would never go back.

It has made me hold off on getting the angelfish I want someday, actually. I thought my 38gal would be fine for a pair- I know people breed them in tanks around that size- but after watching many videos and seeing angels in person I don't think I can do it- I have to wait until I can afford a 60 or 75 setup- because I want to give the fish as much space as I can so I enjoy its quality of life... (kinda got off topic here maybe sorry)


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

JJ09 said:


> I wish you had put 10g in your poll, I would have picked that.


 Liked your write  
Also I meant to put five gallon plus, but I cant put a plus sign (didn't want to write it out look awkward) since my top number keys on my keyboard aren't working, have to use keypad instead.  complications lol


----------



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

BettaBettas said:


> Liked your write
> Also I meant to put five gallon plus, but I cant put a plus sign (didn't want to write it out look awkward) since my top number keys on my keyboard aren't working, have to use keypad instead.  complications lol


You couldn't have had it as a fifth option? or written it as words "5 gallon or more" like that. I never made a poll- does it limit how many choices you can make.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

JJ09 said:


> You couldn't have had it as a fifth option? or written it as words "5 gallon or more" like that. I never made a poll- does it limit how many choices you can make.


 No you can make 100 if you want I think (mod may remove it but), I figured if I put five gallon or more, that people would be like this "well yea if I had the money, I could put him in a 100 gallon tank " Which I understand lol Just made it more specific. With given choices that is.


----------



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Oh I see.


----------



## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

BettaBettas said:


> No you can make 100 if you want I think (mod may remove it but), I figured if I put five gallon or more, that people would be like this "well yea if I had the money, I could put him in a 100 gallon tank " Which I understand lol Just made it more specific. With given choices that is.


However, you gave five choices as a poll and then proceeded to scold anyone that didn't vote the way you thought they should. Either set up a poll to see what people think about a topic or provide them with useful information. Why mix them? IMO, this would have been a better thread without the poll.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

RWaters said:


> However, you gave five choices as a poll and then proceeded to scold anyone that didn't vote the way you thought they should. Either set up a poll to see what people think about a topic or provide them with useful information. Why mix them? IMO, this would have been a better thread without the poll.


 honestly I feel like the purpose of the thread was a plane crash but I don't mind, I personally don't recall scolding the specific voters for voting what they thought was correct or good in their opinion, please do quote. I do disagree with any tank under five gallons for a betta, ill say that any day any time if that's what you meant? I did have five choices in this poll, glad you noticed!  hope you voted as well. I may have missed something as well, why mix what? useful info and a poll? they share nothing alike? information and a vote is a completely different matter. A vote is usually used to see peoples opinions, and information is given out to help the people who are in need of assistance on a certain topic and/or subject. 

Edit:


JJ09 said:


> Oh I see.


 Glad you understood! 0

Unrelated to the above quotes, questions, and statements. I have questioned some people im my replies or writings, and haven't gotten a response from many? im wondering why I haven't. shux.


----------



## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

> This forum is one of the best out there


For plants yes, not for fish care.

Too many people on this site treat fish as a source of ammonia, they add way too much junk in the form of chemicals to the water so their plants thrive, 

I love some of the high tech / ditch tanks BUT they are not suitable for fish as they are too bright, most of the small fish we keep in the hobby prefer low light with floating plants that cut the light down even more and black water,

There is a big difference between thriving and surviving.

Novices should not keep fish in anything under a 10 gallon, 2 gallon is fine for experienced fish keepers.

This is what a Betta tank should look like, Lots of plants low light.









And no I do not use any fertilizer or any of that nonsense I did try API Co2 booster till I found out it was toxic and threw it in the bin. Basically if its not safe for contact with my skin its NOT fish safe.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Lovely tank @NickAu, inspiring to the eye


----------



## EmeraldAlkaline (Feb 24, 2017)

@BettaBettas I apologize if I was trying to instigate. I may have worded that a little to strongly but I was just trying to have conversation on it.


----------



## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

BettaBettas said:


> honestly I feel like the purpose of the thread was a plane crash but I don't mind, I personally don't recall scolding the specific voters for voting what they thought was correct or good in their opinion, please do quote. I do disagree with any tank under five gallons for a betta, ill say that any day any time if that's what you meant? I did have five choices in this poll, glad you noticed!  hope you voted as well.


Okay, maybe scold was a poor choice of words. However, let’s take a look at this quote of yours:



> I hate how people do that, put a betta in a small vase for example. Then uses the excuse "well they do this in the wild"
> My comeback would easily be:
> So bettas grow a magic glass vase shell not attached to their body oh wow


That’s a pretty snippy reply! Besides, the simple fact is that betta's don’t grow a magic rectangular 5 gallon or more glass box around their body either! 

And what about this quote:



> I did have five choices in this poll, glad you noticed!


Again, a pretty snippy reply. 

Here’s another from you:



> I must say those 2 people who voted 3 to 4 gallons didn't read any of the links I posted or anything when they hit that button.


So your poll wasn’t looking for anyone’s opinion, but rather reassurance that your opinion was the right one. You yourself admitted “I feel like the purpose of the thread was a plane crash”. How sad. 

I also like this quote from your opening post:



> … minimum tank size for a betta isn't 2.5 gallons, it is 5 gallons.


It seems people would disagree with you on that. In this very thread people have suggested that it might be 10 gallons or more. So it’s your OPINION (note how I use caps) that 5 gallons is the minimum tank size. In your opening post you state that “I do give STRAIGHT facts …”. Guess what? Your opinion about bettas is not a fact. It’s an opinion. It seems to me that you like to espouse your opinion rather willy-nilly on the forum. 

The bottom line is that you set a trap by posting a poll with 5 choices when you viewed 4 of them as the wrong answer. 

You asked if I voted. Yes, I did. I chose 3-4 gallons. 

Now that I got that off my chest, I will say that I appreciate that you're active on the forum and try to get people engaged, I know you have given some good advice in the past, and I believe that you have a good idea of how to maintain fish (and plants) in your tanks. It's not your knowledge or experience that I question. It's the approach you take to expressing your views and how it sometimes comes across as "this is the right and only way to do it". There's as much art as science to fish keeping. What works for you may not work for everyone.


----------



## ambe (Feb 16, 2017)

NickAu said:


> I love some of the high tech / ditch tanks BUT they are not suitable for fish as they are too bright


This often crosses my mind too. I've never seen a high tech tank in person but those lights must be epic!


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

@RWaters basically you dodged my question and quoted my sarcasm, rofl. that was a waste of time, I could tell you up front that as you said im on purpose being snippy or sarcastic, yes five gallons IMO is the minimum, why do you think im afraid to state everything you quoted? I could care less, if you don't like what I said leave the thread.  simple as 1: leave thread 2: sigh 3: realize you want to do something else on the forum. 
i guess you didn't read the 10 gallons or more thing, i didn't say "all bettas need to stay in a five gallon" i said its the minimum, i also stated which you didn't quote, that i didn't put it on the poll because if i put five plus then everyone would agree a 100 gallon tank is good for one betta, yes? so that also was a waste of words, and i did view 4 as the wrong answer? what did you view as the wrong answer? or where they all correct? I also love to "espouse" my opinion on the forum, its opinions that create things. Weather its good or bad, my case half an half apparently. do appreciate you said that you appreciate me on the forum though, thanks


----------



## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

BettaBettas said:


> @RWaters basically you dodged my question and quoted my sarcasm, rofl. that was a waste of time, I could tell you up front that as you said im on purpose being snippy or sarcastic, yes five gallons IMO is the minimum, why do you think im afraid to state everything you quoted? I could care less, if you don't like what I said leave the thread.  simple as 1: leave thread 2: sigh 3: realize you want to do something else on the forum.
> i guess you didn't read the 10 gallons or more thing, i didn't say "all bettas need to stay in a five gallon" i said its the minimum, i also stated which you didn't quote, that i didn't put it on the poll because if i put five plus then everyone would agree a 100 gallon tank is good for one betta, yes? so that also was a waste of words, and i did view 4 as the wrong answer? what did you view as the wrong answer? or where they all correct? I also love to "espouse" my opinion on the forum, its opinions that create things. Weather its good or bad, my case half an half apparently. do appreciate you said that you appreciate me on the forum though, thanks


Actually, I didn't dodge your question at all. I admitted that you didn't scold people but then pointed out how rude you are to people. You call it sarcasm, I call it annoying. Also stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that you said "all bettas need to stay in a five gallon", nor did I say that you're afraid to state everything I quoted. I guess this is just another instance of the bullying attitude people have witnessed in your posts. Oh, and if you really "could care less", why did you even reply? Talk about wasting time! 

To paraphrase you: If you don't like what I said, leave the thread.  simple as 1: leave the thread to die 2: sigh 3: realize you need to be a nicer person on the forum.


----------



## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

I hope I don't get in trouble for this and hope you guys can find the humor in it but this thread is starting to develop like this.
8=>
8==>
8===>
8====>

Its probably better to deal with some of these issues in pm's and keep this thread informational as it has some good content and best not derailed. You both have great knowledge from what I have read on here that people can benefit from but in my opinion this isn't reflective of how much positive information you both contribute.

Sorry if it upsets either of you as this was not intended for that purpose.

Dan


----------



## guvmarley (Oct 3, 2015)

I want to thank the OP for some extra links (particularly the disease ones) that I hadn't come across yet. As an owner of a 1yo betta, I feel like I'm always learning new things about the fish to refer to for later. There's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to sort through and analyze but it's nice compared to the old dusty book my aunt gave me as a kid.


----------



## BabyGirl77 (Feb 24, 2017)

Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.

BettaBettas does try his best with advising about bettas. No one is perfect in their care of bettas, other fish, and taking care of their tanks. We all have different opinions about the care of these things. Some have more knowledge than others. There is no ONE right way of taking care of bettas or even curing the diseases. When I helped Fishbeard with his/her betta, I thought about what I would do in the situation and what another person would do, then I advised. If Chard56 were to be on this forum again, he most likely would advise treatment over killing the betta, he would advise to try and save it before killing it. When any fish is sick, you try to save it before you kill it or it dies on its own.
@BettaBettas: being snippy and/or sarcastic can get you in trouble, so please refrain for it. I was snippy on another forum and I got in trouble.


----------



## puriance (Feb 19, 2017)

So, a couple of things. 

I find that many of the people here are incredibly helpful, insightful and understanding. Much like the rest of the world, when people share a passion there are going to be opposing sides. There will be those who have a lot of experience, those with idealistic tendencies or sound theories and even those who probably don't have any knowledge but who _desire to get better_, and they all come here. 

There is always a clash of personalities and ideas but at the end of the day there is a common goal that needs to be remembered. We come here for advice, feedback, validation and inspiration on the magical worlds that we create with our own minds and hands. 

What matters most, and has been pointed out, is the way that each of us approach other people. At this point it isn’t about who said what, it’s about _ how_ what was said. 

I’m grateful for the advice that I have received, and I hope that one day I may be able to impart that same knowledge on to someone else. 

However, I do not believe that titles should dictate the level of respect a person deserves. Just as an elder doesn’t get my respect because of their age, but because of _ the person they choose to be_.

There are a few rational points being brought up with a common theme that I was pleased to see. The information and experience is there, but the presentation could be delivered with a little more compassion. 

It is difficult to infer sarcasm through writing, and also the kind of sarcasm that was intended. The way one person reads something is not the same as the way someone else is going to understand it. 

Moving forward I think that the bottom line is _ we all want the same thing_.

Derailed or not, this thread has brought up some tensions and I think it safe to say that what needs to be said has been said. Focus on the facts, remember that we are all human, and mistakes can be prevented through education and compassion. Remedies are best offered with a spoonful of sugar.


----------



## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

This thread was built to be a $hit show from the beginning(on purpose, or not, idk & don't care), and that's exactly what it has become. While it seems there may be some decent info, it's mostly just a pissing contest. 

IMO I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down yet, but like much of this thread that's just a personal opinion. 

What y'all should probably be discussing is the continuation of the betta trade through people who think they're "rescuing" fish from cups all while enabling the market. Again, just my opinion, if you wanna disapprove of the small tanks, bowls, vases, etc., your fight shouldn't be against each other but against the system in place that promotes the whole trade of bettas in cups, bowls, tiny tanks and such. 

If you wanna complain about these things in the hobby, I hope your bettas are all from small breeders and hobbyist who want "what's best for the long term sustainability of the genus and trade." <---However that may be described.... My description may not be the best but I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to get across with that. 

I've tried to refrain from any pointing fingers and $hit slinging. Just wanted to offer MY opinion on a much debated topic.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

RWaters said:


> To paraphrase you: If you don't like what I said, leave the thread.  simple as 1: leave the thread to die 2: sigh 3: realize you need to be a nicer person on the forum.


 just wanted to say, even lol 


Yea I agree with most, this did start out as a conversational thread then everyone started gang banging :eek5: Instead of continuing to comment and quote people, I think im going to just spectate and like posts in this thread *invisible* 
;p
I got up 100 likes in 1 or two days this week, now im at 600... talk about achieving goals lol I didn't even know I had likes!


----------



## justinmo (Nov 3, 2016)

BabyGirl77 said:


> Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## justinmo (Nov 3, 2016)

BabyGirl77 said:


> Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's not actually true, a one gallon can keep a cycle and I believe someone on this form has done it (used it as a shrimp tank) and so can a 2.5 gallon. "Experienced" betta keepers shouldn't be keeping a betta in a 1 gallon unless they're housing the bettas they bred. A 1 gallon long term is not an appropriate home for a betta or any other fish for that matter. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sohankpatel (Jul 10, 2015)

I already weighed in on this thread earlier.
This thread had absolutely no purpose, other than to make BettaBettas feel better about what he think is "right". It never had a conversational note, the only point was to make newbs feel bad. 
I generally respected you @BettaBettas However this $hit show of a thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions based on how you have treated longtime forum members that were blunt and upfront with you. @somewhatshocked
Please delete this thread


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

sohankpatel said:


> I already weighed in on this thread earlier.
> This thread had absolutely no purpose, other than to make BettaBettas feel better about what he think is "right". It never had a conversational note, the only point was to make newbs feel bad.
> I generally respected you @*BettaBettas* However this $hit show of a thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions based on how you have treated longtime forum members that were blunt and upfront with you. @*somewhatshocked*
> Please delete this thread


 would be nice if its main purpose was fulfilled but no one got it, except a few people. My main question / statement was there is a bunch of new people coming in, with betta problems, whats the reason. 
main question above.
But thank you for calling me out again that's not surprising. Earlier I changed the topic on the thread to something completely different, must of missed it. Just Betta Talk basically. also @guvmarley im glad you enjoyed the links! 
The arguing all started you with the first guy who commented (forgot his profile name) and the fact that I said something in another thread, about a betta, that wasn't engaged towards the OP but I said it to anyone who could read. People who read it thought I was talking to the op, and came here. I already stated I contacted the OP apologizing for the mix up, and hopefully was truly forgiven. And I edited the "God awful, hell hole of a comment"


----------



## leejo (May 6, 2014)

PlantedTank just emailed me directing me to this thread, and I can't blame them: it's entertaining as hell.

My outsider impression is that whatever issues some of you have with Bettabettas, they are not manifested here, and so your intrusion on this thread with your critiques of his personality reflects poorly on you, not him. If you don't like BB, that's your opinion and I'm happy to stipulate for argument that you are correct, but crapping on his thread because you're still mad at him for other threads on other days is distracting and destructive to this community. IMO this thread is not a "[censored]show," as some of you have called it as you have done your very best to turn it into one. Please handle your emotions and lead by example by maintaining a constructive tone and staying on-topic.

Bettabettas, Orville Redenbacher, my daughter's stupid betta and I thank you for starting the thread.


----------



## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

Now to throw a spanner into the works.

Some male Bettas do not like open spaces in a bigger tank, they freak out and start fin biting ( Commonly mistaken for fin rot )

If you don't like this thread here's what you do. Top right corner of your browser there is an X hit that.


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall. Many genetic issues, many prior poor treatment issues, both of which can result in a short lived fish and there's really no way, unless you deal directly with breeders that have strong, long lived fish, to know how things are going to go.

Tank size isn't terribly important from an ammonia standpoint, since they generate little ammonia. I've tested juvies in a one gallon temp container and it takes almost 24 hours for ammonia to be detectable with liquid kits. That doesn't mean a gallon is OK, although some dedicated keepers who are willing to change all the water daily have used that system forever. Takes a lot of diligence and IMO, that's not enough space for the fish to swim, but OK for a while in a store; good betta sellers spend most of their time changing water. Ours have been in eheim aquastyles, 6 and 9 gal and a 6 gal fluval edge. They display better in the eheims, the 6 gal edge is too short.

It's very, very easy to cycle a 5 gal or larger betta tank just by putting one betta in and changing lots of water frequently based on test results. Takes some knowledge, or at least willingness to do what you're told to do this smoothly. There's always amquel or aqua safe plus if things go haywire, but big pwc's still rule. Regardless of method, testing and developing toxin profiles are v. important during cycling; I mean write down test date and times and ppm's.

Personally, unless I'm absolutely sure the fish I'm introducing is clean, all new fish go into QT for 2-3 weeks with bacteria and parasite meds. I didn't do this when I started keeping fish years ago and wound up with a dozen tanks with camallanus, flagellates and bacterial infections, which taught me a huge amount about meds the hard way. We got lucky, at that point there were 40 tanks running! Same goes for plants, none go in without a long alum treatment, except tc's and those tube plants, unless I'm sure of them. 

Of the first three bettas we bought, two were from P stores and the third from a good LFS. Two were halfmoons, one a crowntail. All three were put in cycled tanks and died within a few months. They all developed that intractable fin rot that antibiotics or MB dips or furacin green or metro or sulfa or...won't do anything about. In retrospect, none of those fish were in good shape when we got them, but we didn't know. One developed popeye, something doxy is great for (they all died in qt's) but after sitting for probably weeks in ammonia stew in the store after being shipped from Asia, his organs probably shut down. The other two just had melting fins but wouldn't eat and probably had latent ammonia damage, too.

The next three were selected more carefully, a red/blue halfmoon and a dark blue crowntail from P-Smart. We learned they were shipped in a green liquid (furacin green, maybe) and learned which day new shipments came into the local P stores, so we got two that were zippy and still in green water, the same day they were delivered. Our tap is pH 8.3, GH 400 ppm and P-Smart just dumped the shipping water, filled the cups with liquid rock and plopped the fish back in. Welcome to USA, ouch! Here's some nasty water that will make any amount of ammonia toxic, we'll be back in a week to change it! I gave up trying to explain they should replace the bay-tuh's cup water daily when I learned one associate just moved from small animals and was trained on fish that morning. That's all the training they got.

The third one was a blue over black halfmoon orchid I got from E bay All three went through thorough qt with meds and were super zippy when they were put in their tanks, really strong! The red/blue halfmoon did OK for a month, then started melting. I got it sort of under control in his display with sulfa but it still progressed slowly and after 3 months, he died with almost no fins and popeye in qt. The other two lived for 3 years, pretty long for these guys and were beautiful fish. They just got old and faded away eventually, good finnage, no internal infections.

BTW, I've always used RO with Ca and Mg added to dGH 6-7 and pH to 7 with bicarbonate. I can move fish very easily when the tanks are all the same, since shock occurs from sudden big pH and GH changes. 

Since my early mistakes tought me a lot about meds and I had cured some really messed up fish, I was sought out by many betta owners to try and help their fish, most of which had melting fins. Some had bacterial skin ulcers from filthy tanks; those are easy to treat and responded well. I sorted through the well meaning hobbyists who dumped treats into their tanks relentlessly and had absurdly fat fish, the ones who bought every "happy" chemical sold and the ones who decided it was good to stir up the substrate really well before doing a small pwc and never could seem to maintain zero ammonia. They all cleaned up their acts and had clean water for the first time after some discussion; good efforts by all. 

There were knowledgeable hobbyists who used modified RO, counted pellets, fed once a day, no treats and had clean tanks; with melting fins, too. We experimented with a number of meds, the hobbyists who could do a qt used doxy, metro, MB dips and furacins. The ones who treated display tanks used kanamycin, sulfa, metro and MB dips. They had all tried paraguard and some, salt (yuck!) Nothing stopped the melt progression; some of these fish had almost no fins when they died. We joked (it helped some) that they were reverting to their wild configuration. 

The disappointing part of all this was that meds that worked very well on many other kinds of fish had little or no effect on these bettas, leaving organ damage from ammonia poisoning during shipping and/or store treatment and genetics as likely reasons.

It seems there's likely a big genetic component to many betta's early demise, they're very selectively bred and are far more delicate than livebearers, cichlids or other typical hobby fish. Oto's are tricky, but if they're introduced correctly, do well and can live a number of years.

Fancy goldies are genetically dubious similar to bettas but not nearly as much. Been through the same issues with many of them. They too, have been bred for centuries, sometimes into bizarre forms, just like bettas. Neither can swim worth a darn! I have one blue platinum veil angel, 5 yrs old and beautiful, sharing a tank with the small variety of gold nugget pleco/hypo. Started with 5 angels, they were a new strain at that time and genetics were not so good yet. The angel has a missing operculum on one side, doesn't seem to matter much, though.

So, I kind of rambled, but hope our fishy adventures are of some value. I tell hobbyists who want bettas all the things they can do to give their fish good conditions and tell them they may have to go through more than one or two to get a good one. Those who lost one usually go for apparent vigor on the second one even if their finnage or color are different from what they really want.


----------



## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

leejo said:


> PlantedTank just emailed me directing me to this thread, and I can't blame them: it's entertaining as hell.
> 
> My outsider impression is that whatever issues some of you have with Bettabettas, they are not manifested here, and so your intrusion on this thread with your critiques of his personality reflects poorly on you, not him. If you don't like BB, that's your opinion and I'm happy to stipulate for argument that you are correct, but crapping on his thread because you're still mad at him for other threads on other days is distracting and destructive to this community. IMO this thread is not a "[censored]show," as some of you have called it as you have done your very best to turn it into one. Please handle your emotions and lead by example by maintaining a constructive tone and staying on-topic.
> 
> Bettabettas, Orville Redenbacher, my daughter's stupid betta and I thank you for starting the thread.


Hey, thanks for making your 7th post in almost 3 years. Too bad it's such a poor one. This isn't about not liking BB (for me anyway). In fact, I said that BB has offered some good advice here. You would have seen some of his good advice yourself if you were a more active member at TPT. This thread was created to cause a stir and it did. I'm among those that hope it will be closed soon but in the meantime I guess we'll have uninformed posts like yours. You said it yourself - you're an outsider. Yet you judged people after reading one thread. Stay awhile. Get to know us. But don't pass judgment until you do.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Bloomer said:


> Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall. Many genetic issues, many prior poor treatment issues, both of which can result in a short lived fish and there's really no way, unless you deal directly with breeders that have strong, long lived fish, to know how things are going to go.
> 
> Tank size isn't terribly important from an ammonia standpoint, since they generate little ammonia. I've tested juvies in a one gallon temp container and it takes almost 24 hours for ammonia to be detectable with liquid kits. That doesn't mean a gallon is OK, although some dedicated keepers who are willing to change all the water daily have used that system forever. Takes a lot of diligence and IMO, that's not enough space for the fish to swim, but OK for a while in a store; good betta sellers spend most of their time changing water. Ours have been in eheim aquastyles, 6 and 9 gal and a 6 gal fluval edge. They display better in the eheims, the 6 gal edge is too short.
> 
> ...


 Spellbinding write (well idk about spellbinding but pretty knowledgeable ) 
quality information and well thought out opinions. Also good story


----------



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Bloomer said:


> Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall..............


It's really sad they've been bred so selectively to become delicate. I've had seven over the past four years. First three did not last long- we just didn't know how to take care of them at first. Fourth one lived a year, died when I left it in someone else's care for a 3-wk vacation, it was overfed and the water not changed (my instructions were misunderstood). 5th and 6th I had for two years each. One literally choked on his food- a pure accident- and the other got a parasite I think I introduced via a snail, after which developed dropsy and the end was quick. All my bettas except the first two have been plakats- and I've never really had issues with fin rot. Do you think the longer-finned fancy ones are particularly prone to it.

I have started being a lot more picky about which ones I bring home. One I observed in the pet store for over a month, every time I went in there it was always alert, even had a bubble nest in its cup. It was not the prettiest color- dark brown/black with a bit of red & blue in the fins- but it looked like such a healthy fish I was really drawn to it.

Someday I might pay the extra cost to buy one straight from a breeder- but I really like seeing the fish in person first (especially ones with such personality) so that's hard for me to do. However the more I learn about them the less I like buying the ones sold in cups at the chain stores, which only supports the way they are bred and transported to end up there. I wish I could find someone in driving distance who breeds them in their home! I would be thrilled to go there. When my dark Oliver died, the betta tank sat empty for two weeks because I felt iffy about getting another one, but then I just could not help myself. Now I feel guilty just thinking all those sitting in little cups on the shelves.

I've heard of people whose bettas live five, six, seven years- so I know it's possible. I'd be happy if I could keep one to four or five.


----------



## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

> It seems there's likely a big genetic component to many betta's early demise, they're very selectively bred


Indeed they are very selectively bred, in fact it is not unusual to see sibling pairs ( yes brother and sister ) sold for breeding, and these sibling pairs and the ofspring of sibling pairs who the the offspring of sibling pairs, all that inbreeding is not good.


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

> Spellbinding write (well idk about spellbinding but pretty knowledgeable )
> quality information and well thought out opinions. Also good story


Thanks, fish keeping is an adventure. It's an amazingly complicated hobby.


----------



## NickAu (Feb 24, 2017)

Nice Assassin


----------



## Bloomer (Mar 22, 2014)

Unfortunately, that's how uniformity is brought into a strain. A few years ago, I bought some swords from the Xiphophorus Genetic Stock Center at Texas State, fish that are maintained to keep the wild gene pools intact and I thought, at least for the prices I paid!, they'd be super awesome fantastic fish, Cortezi and Montezumas are what I got.

There was huge variation in them as adults, some were small, some big, some very colorful, some dull. One Monte was 6 in long with his crazy sword, the rest were comparative runts.

Thinking about my weird adult fish, it occurred to me that they were exactly how they should be!


----------



## leejo (May 6, 2014)

RWaters said:


> Hey, thanks for making your 7th post in almost 3 years. Too bad it's such a poor one. This isn't about not liking BB (for me anyway). In fact, I said that BB has offered some good advice here. You would have seen some of his good advice yourself if you were a more active member at TPT. This thread was created to cause a stir and it did. I'm among those that hope it will be closed soon but in the meantime I guess we'll have uninformed posts like yours. You said it yourself - you're an outsider. Yet you judged people after reading one thread. Stay awhile. Get to know us. But don't pass judgment until you do.


Hello. I haven't been posting, sir, but I have been reading. Again, my suggestion is to adopt a constructive tone and stick to the subject. 

With regard to passing judgement, imagine that you walk into a fish store for the first time. It seems to be a terrific store, and has everything you need. You're excited to be there. And the owners are screaming at each other. 

Perhaps one had just said something merely to cause a stir. Perhaps the screamer is in the right. When you say "hey guys, can you chill out for a second and help me with my betta question?" one of the owners turns to you and starts shouting at you to get to know each of them and don't pass judgement until you do. Odds are good that you will never know which was in the right, because who cares, and who needs to shop at that store?

We all have a choice: build up threads that start badly and make every effort to improve their content, or attempt to destroy threads and posters that do not meet "our" standards for whatever reason, no matter how it appears to people on the outside or how unpleasant and unwelcoming it makes you and the community appear.

Which do you imagine these admins to whom you appeal would prefer? Or their sponsors? 

You may wish for readers such as myself to stay awhile to get to know you before deciding, correctly or not, that you are unpleasant and uninformative, leave, and never come back, but it doesn't work that way. Each of us, and this forum, is making a first impression on some number of readers/members/consumers all the time. It's your job to make that impression a good one, not the new reader's.

Cheers.

Bump:


Bloomer said:


> Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall. Many genetic issues, many prior poor treatment issues, both of which can result in a short lived fish and there's really no way, unless you deal directly with breeders that have strong, long lived fish, to know how things are going to go.
> 
> Tank size isn't terribly important from an ammonia standpoint, since they generate little ammonia. I've tested juvies in a one gallon temp container and it takes almost 24 hours for ammonia to be detectable with liquid kits. That doesn't mean a gallon is OK, although some dedicated keepers who are willing to change all the water daily have used that system forever. Takes a lot of diligence and IMO, that's not enough space for the fish to swim, but OK for a while in a store; good betta sellers spend most of their time changing water. Ours have been in eheim aquastyles, 6 and 9 gal and a 6 gal fluval edge. They display better in the eheims, the 6 gal edge is too short.
> 
> ...


Terrific post! Thanks for rambling.


----------



## RWaters (Nov 12, 2003)

leejo said:


> imagine that you walk into a fish store for the first time. It seems to be a terrific store, and has everything you need. You're excited to be there. And the owners are screaming at each other.


_Except you didn't come in for the first time, and the only reason you were excited to be here was for the entertainment value. Your exact words were "...it's entertaining as hell"._ 



> Perhaps one had just said something merely to cause a stir. Perhaps the screamer is in the right. When you say "hey guys, can you chill out for a second and help me with my betta question?" one of the owners turns to you and starts shouting at you to get to know each of them and don't pass judgement until you do. Odds are good that you will never know which was in the right, because who cares, and who needs to shop at that store?


_Here again, you're twisting things around in your favor. You didn't say "hey guys, can you chill out for a second and help me with my betta question?". What you said was "your intrusion on this thread with your critiques of his personality reflects poorly on you, not him". Quite a difference, isn't it?_ 



> We all have a choice: build up threads that start badly and make every effort to improve their content, or attempt to destroy threads and posters that do not meet "our" standards for whatever reason, no matter how it appears to people on the outside or how unpleasant and unwelcoming it makes you and the community appear.


_Yes, we all have a choice and I chose to point out that the thread essentially laid a trap for the people who "walk into a fish store for the first time"._



> Which do you imagine these admins to whom you appeal would prefer? Or their sponsors?


Since I've already pointed out that everything you've said was twisted to try to make yourself look like the good guy in this, it's a moot point. You're not the voice of reason you may think you are. Of course the admins prefer non-confrontational threads. Most people do. And the sponsors? As long as you're buying their product, they probably don't care too much what type of person you really are. As a matter of fact, the sponsors may appreciate the extra traffic this thread has created. After all, you yourself were directed here from elsewhere. 



> You may wish for readers such as myself to stay awhile to get to know you before deciding, correctly or not, that you are unpleasant and uninformative, leave, and never come back, but it doesn't work that way. Each of us, and this forum, is making a first impression on some number of readers/members/consumers all the time. It's your job to make that impression a good one, not the new reader's.


Again with the twists! I never said that I wanted you or others to leave and never come back. You try to paint me as the bad guy while you take the high road. What a joke! You came here as "an outsider"(your words, not mine) and posted just to stir the pot. That tells me a lot about the type of person you really are as opposed to who you're trying to portray. But I already suspected it when your earlier post included "my daughter's stupid betta and I thank you for starting the thread".

By the way, BettaBettas and I have already communicated via pm to resolve our issues and we're putting this behind us. So there goes your entertainment.


----------



## Yande! (Mar 15, 2017)

sohankpatel said:


> @BettaBettas
> Im not trying to be rude here, but I think you should refrain from answering questions about illnesses if your response is going to be linked to google, and have sections copy and pasted. People are looking for what someone has done to fix the illness, not what some random internet site says will work. They came to the forum for a reason. If they wanted google, they would google.
> Also, you do come across as arrogant in many posts, you are fairly new to fishkeeping yourself (Multiple bettas and a gourami in a 10g). I have seen some things that I disagree with you on, but I don't rip into people, especially when they are new.
> Also, how have you racked up 1800 posts in 7 months? I have been here for 1 and a half years and only have 1300. Quality, not quantity.
> The forum title means nothing @Yande! I could post garbage on every thread and be a guru in a month, some of the smartest people on this forum have few posts, while some who don't know what they are doing have many more.


Thank You! 
I mostly learn from my mistakes, and at times those mistakes come from the advice of people that I misadvertantly trusted. Regarding this, Fish Keeping is a mine field, especially now that it has come to Franchises and the "do not tell the customer that they cannot buy that fish" rule. I'm finding it hard to find the real love, even online..

Again thanks..


----------



## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

Bettas are genetic train wrecks these days...you could provide the optimum care and still have it drop dead for no reason. I have honestly not had a betta live beyond 2 years in a very very long time. Now mind you mine have loads of room, good diet, and high water quality....still a rarity. 

I have a rather fat and sassy old blue OHM at work...he has a 10G to himself. I have another HM at home in a 5.5G; I have kept them in smaller tanks down to 2.5G and they have done fine. As with what others have stated I think this is manageable if you take care of the water first...newbs typically don't know how to take care of the water which is where issues come from. Tanks are very poor representations of nature...despite an aquarium looking natural with biotopish stock; it is still a far cry from what would be natural. If we really wanted to replicate nature a betta would have a 75G to himself and only a handful of small critters in the tank. Honestly no one is going to invest a $700 setup for a $7 fish. 

I managed a LFS while working on my undergrad...and will say that 9 times out of 10 people are unwilling to implement education which they receive. Reason being is people want what they want and will do whatever it is they want until it crashes and burns. Only then will most people be open to implementing better ways and education. It isnt that they necessarily don't care about the animals; it is more of they arrogantly think that their method will work just fine.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

@Yande! im not trying to be mean here, just asking, I thought you said you were leaving? Also we finally ended all the arguments so please refrain from bringing it back up. 

Edit:


MCHRKiller said:


> I managed a LFS while working on my undergrad...and will say that 9 times out of 10 people are unwilling to implement education which they receive. Reason being is people want what they want and will do whatever it is they want until it crashes and burns. Only then will most people be open to implementing better ways and education. It isnt that they necessarily don't care about the animals; it is more of they arrogantly think that their method will work just fine.


 This is the pure truth of society, you hear but you don't listen.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Yande! said:


> Think I'll head to another forum!! "Wannabee Guru's," "Bullies" such as this are a major turnoff in any forum, especially, for newbies


 forgot to quote this for when I said that you claimed you where leaving.


----------



## Yande! (Mar 15, 2017)

My Bad..

BettaBettas, not an excuse, but a trying time..

Hopefully I can survive to learn from your advice.

In retrospect, more importantly, so the fish can survive. No regreats about our conversation.

Wish it could have happened in closer quarters. G'night.


----------



## MCHRKiller (Jul 25, 2008)

Most people would be interested in learning more and would engage and listen to you with understanding....only to decide to go with their original plan anyway more times than not. The store I managed was very good...we did not order or keep any fish which could not be managed in a home aquarium. Largest species we ever got in were those which a 75-125G tank would be acceptable quarters for life. 

Thus on forums I feel it is important to show evidence and information on what works....hopefully people take others experiences and grow from it. Honestly that is all we can do; arguing about what is right and wrong is pointless; this hobby has so much grey area many things that should not work do for some people. I also respect those who have been in the hobby for quite a while...learned from trial and error and can really push the envelope somewhat. I like to push things with my own fish room...but always taking care of the water first.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Yande! said:


> My Bad..
> 
> Wish it could have happened in closer quarters. G'night.


 im going to be honest I have no clue what that meant, closer quarters, does that mean you want to fight or something? ive made up with everyone including the fin rot thread owner now except you, and I don't plan to do so anytime soon or ever. Glad you have no regrets I guess? don't really know what to say to that lmfao


----------



## BabyGirl77 (Feb 24, 2017)

BettaBettas said:


> Yande! said:
> 
> 
> > My Bad..
> ...


@BettaBettas: just don't worry about it. Be the bigger person and not let it get to you. If you let thing get to you, you let that person win. By not letting things get to you, you don't allow that person to win, hence you win. 

@Yande: BettaBettas is a kid, a minor. If you are thinking about fighting him, I suggest you think again, because hurting a minor is against the law.


----------



## Fishbeard (Aug 20, 2016)

@BettaBettas I get the fact that you've made up with a bunch of folks, I think that's great! Glad you're reaching out to people and making amends. I just hope that you take the fact that people have been negatively affected by your actions as a chance to change how you talk to others online. It seems that you have good intentions, just that they don't always come off that way in your writing. Plenty of people have trouble with communicating through short written messages (myself included), and sometimes it's good to be called out, even if it doesn't feel good.

But one thing that's sometimes hard to accept is that first impressions mean a lot, especially in online settings. I don't think that you are going to be able to repair things with @Yande! for example, or probably myself. That's just how it is, at least in my experience.

I hope that you aren't too disheartened by this thread @BettaBettas. Just take it as a chance to learn that good intentions only come across when you are kind and forgiving of others.

As for when people come here for advice... I think that they are probably doing their own research, and trying lots of things, especially when it comes to diseases. I know I'm a member of a few forums, as well as a local club, so I get help from lots of sources. Many people are probably not ignoring comments here, so much as adding it to their own findings. Then they might make the right or wrong choice based on all of the information they collected.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Fishbeard said:


> But one thing that's sometimes hard to accept is that first impressions mean a lot, especially in online settings. I don't think that you are going to be able to repair things with @*Yande!* for example, or probably myself. That's just how it is, at least in my experience..


 *when you thought the thread was finally getting to the purpose of the thread, then it backfires*
No I don't plan on "making up" with yande since he has insulted me multiple times, wondering why he is mad at me, I never negatively commented on his only thread, he liked my comment on there lol
thanks for your comment though. 

Bump:


BabyGirl77 said:


> BettaBettas is a kid, a minor. If you are thinking about fighting him, I suggest you think again, because hurting a minor is against the law.


 I never thought about that, that its against the law.  smart thinking


----------



## Yande! (Mar 15, 2017)

BettaBettas said:


> im going to be honest I have no clue what that meant, closer quarters, does that mean you want to fight or something? ive made up with everyone including the fin rot thread owner now except you, ...


Apolgies, it was late. LOL I meant that I wish we were face to face, I am sure we could have expressed our opinions, debated, learnt and then moved on. I sent you a PM, offering my apologies to you. Hopefully we can now move on.


----------



## Super_ (Mar 26, 2017)

10/10 Good reading.

No idea why this thread hadn't been shut down.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

Super_ said:


> 10/10 Good reading.
> 
> No idea why this thread hadn't been shut down.


 most likely because it became such a popular thread and its a 10/10 reading


----------



## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

Well,there's a facebook page for an aquarium group in our state,I just read a real horror story(for the poor betta).Someone cleaned out a small tank,filled it with warm dechlorinated water,and dumped the betta in.Now they're mystified why the poor fish swam in circles upside down and died within minutes.

Where do you even start? I think this is why the bettas in the box stores are what they are.This is their market.That person will probably go buy another,it will live days or weeks then they'll be off to get another one.I guess they sell a lot of bettas.And one gallon tanks to kill them I mean keep them in.


----------



## Super_ (Mar 26, 2017)

So that I feel like I have contributed... I have never kept bettas because... Well idk I haven't. But if I did decide to rescue one, would it be suitable for a community tank or are they aggressive towards other fish? My understanding is that they are aggressive towards other males only.


----------



## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Super_ said:


> So that I feel like I have contributed... I have never kept bettas because... Well idk I haven't. But if I did decide to rescue one, would it be suitable for a community tank or are they aggressive towards other fish? My understanding is that they are aggressive towards other males only.


Some are more rowdy than others and will nip on longer finned fish like fancy guppies. Best not to keep any long, flowy finned fish with males. Other big considerations in community tanks are current and tankmates. You want low current so they don't get blown around (they aren't used to current, or designed for it). And you don't want to put them in with fish that will pick on them, or out compete them for food. They may just hang back if feeding time is a free for all and eventually starve.


----------



## JJ09 (Sep 11, 2014)

Super_ said:


> .... But if I did decide to rescue one, would it be suitable for a community tank or are they aggressive towards other fish? My understanding is that they are aggressive towards other males only.


It depends on the betta, and it depends on the other fish. I had a betta that got along ok with cherry barbs and kuhli loaches in a 20L. I had another one that went after platies (I guess it was the bright color) and the one I have now was aggressive towards pygmy cories I tried to add to his tank. No fish friends for him! He just lives with snails now, but even that is not always safe- some bettas will bite the feelers off of inverts.


----------



## BettaBettas (Aug 21, 2016)

all my old bettas where in a huge community. did fine


----------



## ryry2012 (May 30, 2015)

Super_ said:


> So that I feel like I have contributed... I have never kept bettas because... Well idk I haven't. But if I did decide to rescue one, would it be suitable for a community tank or are they aggressive towards other fish? My understanding is that they are aggressive towards other males only.


Do you have another/extra tank?


Someone told me that her betta had been doing fine and peacefully in a community tank for months. One day he started stalking others. She had to move him to an extra tank she had.
I think it's always good to have a backup plan just in case it doesn't work out.


----------



## Super_ (Mar 26, 2017)

ryry2012 said:


> Super_ said:
> 
> 
> > So that I feel like I have contributed... I have never kept bettas because... Well idk I haven't. But if I did decide to rescue one, would it be suitable for a community tank or are they aggressive towards other fish? My understanding is that they are aggressive towards other males only.
> ...



I have so many extra tanks. But I'm also not exactly planning on running out to rescue the bettas. Just a thought for a future maybe. Lol


----------

