# crshadow's Tetra Breeding Project *56K Warning!*



## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Hello, and welcome to my "Tetra Breeding Project."

Few things bring as much life to a tank as a vibrant school of tetras. Despite their beauty, they have a reputation of being difficult to breed, some being more difficult than others. As a result, many such as the Cardinal Tetra are still brought in from the wild rather than being farm raised. It is common to hear stories of hobbyists purchasing Cardinals only to have the majority of them die for no apparent reason. Yet once successfully acclimated, they are very hardy fish. This scenario has happened to me on more than one occasion. All this inspired me to attempt to breed these critters, and it has been a goal of mine for some time, with the ultimate goal of all being to breed the elusive Cardinal itself. Searching online and reading books has provided me with some general guidelines for breeding tetras, however finding an in depth and detailed guide has been difficult. So, I'd like to share my tetra breeding journey with everyone, whether it be a success or a failure. I'll try and document each step as best as I can, and plan to experiment with variations on technique as well. I'm also open to all input, thoughts, and suggestions.


The first step was to purchase some breeding stock. Even if you already have some of these fish, its best to start with young breeding stock as they are much more likely to be within their breeding prime. Normally with other fish, you'd look for a breeder who specializes in the fish you are looking to breed. However, considering the circumstances of these fish, its easier to just purchase some from a reputable local fish store. My LFS normally doesn't stock Cardinals because of the aforementioned problems of them dying off easily. Fortunately they were willing to special order some for me. I ordered about 30 to 40 to add to the existing school in my display tank. While I was there I also picked up a few glowlight tetras. The reason for this is that they are reported to be an easier species of tetra to breed and I wanted to use them as a sort of practice before attempting the Cardinals. 

I put the glowlights in 5 gallon, and seperated about 7-9 of the cardinals and put them in a 10 gallon tank to hold them until I was ready to breed them. Unfortunately the project took a long hiatus at this point, as things became quite busy for me and I was unable to devote enough time to the fish. This was almost a year ago now. (So much for my young breeding stock!!!) During that time period I lost a lot of my fish in a fire I had back in November. The glowlights were reduced to 3 individuals, but I didn't lose any of the cardinals. Also during that time, I had been slowly working on my fishroom... Anyway... Fast forward to a few weeks ago, the fishroom is mostly complete and operational and all my tanks have been moved to it. At long last I can continue the project....


-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

.... Continued...

As mentioned earlier, detailed tetra breeding guides are hard to come by, but most of what you do find utilizes the following technique for maximum yields:

Step 1: Obtain a group of fish.
Step 2: Condition the fish by feeding frequently with rich foods, and with live foods if possible.
Step 3: Seperate the males and females into two seperate tanks. (The females being plumper after the conditioning.)
Step 4: Adjust water parameters to match their natural habitat.
Step 5: Setup a third tank with all sides blacked out to avoid light getting in as the fry are light sensitive.
Step 5: Add a male and a female together to the third tank at night.
Step 6: Check for eggs on the following day, and remove the parents if they spawned.
Step 7: Keep the tank dark at first, and try to raise the fry.

This seems like the best technique for yielding the greatest amount of fry, but I've seen other methods involving providing lots of cover in a tank with a small number of adults and letting them free breed. Many will get eaten, but some survive. I will probably try a mish-mash of the two methods at first, and depending on the initial results (if any), experiment further and see which is the most practical. I'm a little worried about the age of my breeders now though...


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

I started about three weeks ago by providing ample food to get the fish into breeding condition. At this point they are kept in my normal local tap water. GH over 25dGH, KH about 8, pH about 7.5. Temperature in the fishroom is maintained at about 78 to 80F. I was hoping it would not be too difficult to discern males from females after the conditioning period. With the glowlights, it was fairly easy to tell which was which. It looked like I lucked out and that my 3 survivors were a male and 2 females. 

Male:









Females and Male (Females are not super plump in this pic)










As for the Cardinals, it seems a little more difficult. There are some that are definitely plump and must be females, but there are some that seem borderline and could go either way... Arg... Being that it's a bit wishy-washy, I'm not going to attempt to seperate males and females at first, because I'd hate to have a failure because I accidently put two males or two females together. Rather, I'm going to see what happens if I simulate their natural habitat, to see if I even get any spawning activity at all. I'll worry about large spawns later, first I just want to see if they spawn at all.

After about two weeks of conditioning, I added a layer of about 1" deep of peat moss to both the glowlight and cardinal tanks. (Both were barebottom before the peat) If you have dry peat, it's best to boil it first, otherwise it won't sink. I feel this is probably one of the more important additions to the tanks as it serves several purposes. It of course provides surface area for beneficial bacteria and all, but more importantly it serves to:

- Soften the KH of the water
- Reduce the pH to a more acidic level
- Provides a tea colored blackwater effect
- Provides a place for the eggs to fall into to be protected from hungry parents.
- Eggs that fall into the peat will be protected from light.
- Hopefully provides a habitat for infusoria which will be the fry's first food source.

On top of the peat I spread a large clump of java moss as spawning medium. This will also serve to protect the eggs from the parents. This was about a week ago.

Within a day, the water hard turned a tea color, and the KH was reduced to 0. pH was also quite low of course, at least 5 or less. (As low as my test kit goes) The fish seemed a little stressed at first from the sudden drop, but were fine after a day or so. I continued feeding well during this time.

Here's the Cardinal tank after the addition of the Peat Moss substrate and Java Moss. Notice that the sides and back of the tank are blacked out with black background material.









PS: Sorry for the width of the images, but I wanted to show as much detail as possible.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

My next step was to replace a portion of the tank water with RO/DI water in order to lower the GH. This is also another way of simulating their natural habitat. Reportedly, high levels of calcium may prevent eggs from hatching. I had planned to do this step using RO/DI water that was cooler than the 78-80F degrees of the tank in hopes of simulating rainy season with the cooler, softer water. However, I did not get a chance to do this at all! On Friday (5/19/2006) I noticed about 4 or 5 crystal clear spheres approximately 1mm in diameter in the glowlight tank among the java moss. Eggs!!! I attempted to gather these eggs with an eyedropper to place in a seperate container, but only managed to get 2. The others fell down into the peat as I was trying to get them. I have no idea how many more eggs there were that fell into the peat. I presume there must be quite a bit more, but I have no way of knowing unless fry start showing up in the tank. As for the 2 I rescued, I placed them into a vial for observation. Since I hadn't added the RO water yet, I took this opportunity to add some to the vial, in case the water was too hard for them to hatch. It was about 1 part tank water and 1 part RO/DI water. I added a sprig of java moss and a sprinkle of peat to the vial, and covered the vial with a cup to prevent light from harming the reportedly light sensitive eggs. 

Pic of me covering the vial with a dixie cup.










I checked on them later that night and they had hatched already! I don't know how long the eggs had been in the tank, but I don't think it was more than a day before I found them. That night I also diluted the water in the main tanks with RO water as well, in case the water was too hard for hatching. I hope I wasn't too late...

Here are a couple pics of the fry.


















Close-up


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here's another pic for size reference.









By superimposing this shot and scaling it to match the previous shot we can estimate the size of the fry as being approximately 1/8"










-Jeremiah


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## akos (Oct 20, 2005)

Nice journal and a cool project. Good luck.


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## Brex (Mar 30, 2006)

Good luck. As one of the many people who love how Cardinals look, but have trouble acclimating them to my local water supply, I look forward to your results.


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## Lil boy blue (Jan 26, 2006)

Cant wait to see the out come with the cardinal.....you have a awesome journal starting...


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Thanks everyone! I'm very glad to have had a minor success so early on, I hope it's a good indication of things to come! The two fry are still alive and kicking, after the last 3 days. I'll post some day by day pictures later on tonight.

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

This is on 5/20/2006, 24 hours after hatching. I guess we can call this Day 2. You can see the yolk sack has shrunk a tad already, and the eyes have started to form.


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## trckrunrmike (Jul 20, 2005)

what do they eat?


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

wow, very nice. I've been planning on trying to breed cardinals for a while, but still have to wait til I get my fishroom set up. You're a few steps ahead of me


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

trckrunrmike said:


> what do they eat?


That's a good question. While they still have their yolk sack, they will feed off of that. Once that's expended it'll have to be some very small food. Most of what I've read has said that they are too small to eat anything but infusoria for the first couple of days. However, the fry are actually bigger than I expected after what I read. Personally, I think they are large enough to take mini microworms right away once they are free swimming. In fact I did just that an hour or so ago for the first time. (Day 5) I couldn't tell if they ate any though...

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

hooha said:


> wow, very nice. I've been planning on trying to breed cardinals for a while, but still have to wait til I get my fishroom set up. You're a few steps ahead of me


Thanks, we'll see how it goes for me. Hopefully I can save you some trial and error. Wish me luck!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here's a shot from 5/21/2006 (Day 3). They're developing fast! 












As of day 3 they are now capable of darting around a bit, but they still spend most of their time laying on the bottom.


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## Lorenceo (Jan 29, 2004)

Awesome project and pictures!
I will be following this thread. roud:


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## sNApple (Nov 6, 2005)

cool pics, reminds me when my piranhas had babies
good luck!


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

I love your journals...keep them coming!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

good luck with this!!

/subscribe

-=- fish newb -=-


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Day 4's development. (5/22/2006) You can now see the fry's pectoral fins! Also, by using the handy dandy ruler scaled to size, it seems that the fry has grown from 1/8" the first day to 3/16" on day 4.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Day 5: 5/23/2006 - It's getting harder to photograph the fry as they no longer just sit on the bottom. Yolk sack appears to be pretty much gone, and as a result, I fed them some mini microworms, just in case. Unfortunately, I did not witness them trying to eat at all. Perhaps they're not quite ready yet.



















-Jeremiah


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## shuks (Jul 10, 2005)

this has become my faverot thread. By far the most detailed documentation of Tetra breeding I've ever seen. Great job!


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Great thread. Subscribed as well. I look forward to your successes.

What live foods are you feeding the parents?

Oh ... another benefit of peat is that the acid keeps fungus from devouring the eggs.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Too cool! Hope you fare as well with your cardinal project as you have with the glowlights.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

Feed them some infusoria, they can definitely eat that. Keep up the good work!


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## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

Great thread, pictures, and details!

I'm curious how much water you replace in the little vial?


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## cannonj22 (Dec 7, 2004)

This is a fantastic thread on a subject that I have been interested in for a very long time. From everything that I have read it is a challenge to get these fish to lay eggs in the first place. The really difficult part (or so I've heard) is growing the fry out, particularly in the case of cardinals. People that I have spoken to on the subject have told me that their method of growing them out is by putting them in a baby pool or something similar outside, where there is ample phytoplankton from the copius amount of sunlight. Can't wait to see how this develops.

Joe


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

hooha said:


> Feed them some infusoria, they can definitely eat that. Keep up the good work!


This is a good suggestion. Just get some fish water in a jar and put it outside until it turns to green water. Then feed the fry green water using a dropper.


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## Accident (Dec 12, 2005)

I have Buenos Aires tetras in a 150 w/a bunch of cichlids, and those suckers spawn 3 or 4 times a year. Stick the eggs all over the plastic plants. It's a total feeding frenzy! If I ever change the tank again, It will be a breeder for them.
Great thread, reminds me of koi/goldfish breeding threads.
Accident


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

First of all, thanks to everyone for the continued support and enthusiasm! It's greatly appreciated. Keep those suggestions coming!



John P. said:


> What live foods are you feeding the parents?
> 
> Oh ... another benefit of peat is that the acid keeps fungus from devouring the eggs.


For foods, I'm feeding the parents a combination of the following: Hikari Freeze Dried Daphnia, Beef Heart Flakes, Multi Flake, Hikari Freeze Dried Blood Worms, Live Grindal Worms, and finally Live mosquito larva which had been laid in one of my fishless tanks by a rogue mosquito! :icon_redf 

Very good point on the peat moss and fungus! Yet another great benefit!




RoseHawke said:


> Too cool! Hope you fare as well with your cardinal project as you have with the glowlights.


Me too! I'm not out of the woods yet with the glowlight rearing though. Let's hope my luck keeps up.



esarkipato said:


> I'm curious how much water you replace in the little vial?


So far I haven't replaced any, and I'm a little worried about that step when the time comes. I'll just add a little at a time and hope for the best.


*hooha, cannonj22, AaronT:* Hmm... You guys have me a little worried about the infusoria. I had chosen not to make up a batch of infusoria a few days ago based on the size of the fry. It looks to me like they could take mini microworms, yet I've not seen them eat yet to this day. (Currently Day 7) They could be eating when I'm not watching though. Maybe I should have made some anyway as a precaution...

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

On to more updates:

On day 5 I had another interesting situation occur. Around midday, I was checking the cardinal tank and to my surprise I found about 5 eggs strewn about. They looked a little opaque and at first I didn't realize that they were eggs at all. I retreived the eggs and held them to the light and it looks like there was perhaps an embryo inside of each of them. However, the eggs did not look too good as they were not clear like the glowlight eggs. I put the eggs in another vial with tank water + RO to see what would happen. Unfortunately, by the next day, the eggs had not hatched and had turned completely white. I'm guessing either they were damaged by the light in the cardinal tank, or more likely, that I just didn't get to them in time, and the water was too hard for them to hatch.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here are two shots from Day 6 (5/24/2006):


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

This is too cool. Great fun to follow!


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## Canoe2Can (Oct 31, 2004)

My experience with glowlights is that it's not hard to get them to spawn. Some peat in the tank or the filter seems to be the major condition for spawning to occur, though a cool water change helps. I used to have a half dozen in a planted 30 gallon, and I would see them spawn regularly. And usually most of the eggs were eaten before they hit the gravel! 


But raising the fry of any tetra is much more challenging. Best of luck to you. You just might have inspired me to find a use for my empty tanks.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Betowess said:


> This is too cool. Great fun to follow!


Thanks, Bob! I'm hoping everyone has fun watching this thread progress.



Canoe2Can said:


> My experience with glowlights is that it's not hard to get them to spawn. Some peat in the tank or the filter seems to be the major condition for spawning to occur, though a cool water change helps. I used to have a half dozen in a planted 30 gallon, and I would see them spawn regularly. And usually most of the eggs were eaten before they hit the gravel!
> 
> 
> But raising the fry of any tetra is much more challenging. Best of luck to you. You just might have inspired me to find a use for my empty tanks.


Poor eggs! Although that's not surprising, I'm sure they're tasty and nutritious. In fact, this may be why I only found only a handful of eggs... It'd be nice if I'd be lucky enough to catch them in the act.

Thanks for the encouraging words, I'm flattered, if I manage to inspire people to try spawning these, than this thread has been a success!

-Jeremiah


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## shuks (Jul 10, 2005)

updates....?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

shuks said:


> updates....?


Sorry to leave everyone hanging. I'll try and post an update later on tonight or tomorrow.

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Whew, I've fallen behind on updates as it's currently day 14 since the glowlights hatched, yet I've only posted up to day 6!

Okay, here's the scoop. 

Day 6 continued: Since the cardinal eggs failed to hatch on the previous day (5/23/2006), I decided to dig out my TDS meter, which I hadn't used thus far, to take some more accurate measurements. I tested the vial in which the glowlights hatched, the vial in which the cardinals did not hatch, the water in the glowlight tank, and the water in the cardinal tank. The TDS results were as follows:

Glowlight Vial: 287 ppm (Hatching Successful)
Cardinal Vial: 281 ppm (Hatching Unsuccessful)
Glowlight Tank: 612 ppm
Cardinal Tank: 587 ppm
My Normal Tap: 545 ppm 

You might remember me mentioning that I diluted the vial water (which came originally from each respective tank) with RO water as well as diluting the tanks themselves... Well, based on the results, it seems that despite diluting the water in the tank, it was not diluted enough. In fact, for the tank water to have a higher TDS after diluting than my normal tap without dilution tells me that I must have topped off evaporated water a few times too many in the past! :icon_redf I knew that I had not added as much RO water to the tanks as I did to the vials, but I didn't expect them to differ quite that much... I never saw any fry darting about the glowlight tank, and the high TDS might be the reason why. Further, although the TDS of 287 in the glowlight vial was low enough for them to hatch, it seems that it might still be too high for cardinal eggs to hatch. More experimentation would be necessary to be certain.

With this new information in hand, I did another water change on the glowlight and cardinal tanks thus reducing the TDS in both to about 200 ppm. This way, if the glowlights spawn again, any eggs remaining in the tank will have a pretty good chance of hatching. Plus if the cardinals spawn again, I can dilute water in a vial to an even lower TDS.

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

And now some pics from Day 7 (5/25/2006)

I was a little worried about the size of the microworms I had been feeding. One of the glowlights was not looking too good and was just laying on the bottom a lot, so I was worried whether it had gotten enough food. On the flip side, I was able to confirm that the healthy fry was eating as I finally actually witnessed him chomping on a worm. The healthy fry had been exhibiting normal fish hunting behavior since day 5, but this was the first time I got to see the kill. Of course when they are this size it's hard to see anything without melting my eyes.



















You can see from the pics that the microworms do seem small enough for the fry, so I think this diet will work for now. Unfortunately, the unhealthy fry passed away the next day. With a sample size of only 2 fish, it's hard to say for certain that lack of food was a cause though.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

5/26/2006: (Glowlight Day 8)

Starting from Day 5, I slowly increased the amount of light exposure to the glowlight fry until this day. From this point on, the fry received normal lighting levels with no apparent ill effects.


This day also brought another cardinal spawn! This spawn, like the last one was quite small, as I only found about 5 or so eggs. They did not look too great this time around either. I placed them in a vial diluted to about 150ppm. Unfortunately, they did not hatch, and a couple of them fungused. I'll have to try some methylene blue next time around to help prevent fungus.


This photo shows one of the cardinal eggs. As you can see it's not completely clear, and there is an irregular shaped splotch on/in it.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

5/28/2006: Yet another cardinal spawn today! This is the largest one yet, as I was able to find about 20 to 30 eggs. I divided these among 4 separate vials in order to test various conditions as follows:

- Tank Water (220 ppm)
- Tank Water + Methylene Blue (220 ppm)
- Diluted Tank Water (120 ppm)
- Diluted Tank Water + Meth Blue (120 ppm)

The results? No hatchings in any of the vials! Arrgh.... There are a few possibilities I can think of.

- TDS of 120 ppm is still too high.
- Possibly overdosed Methylene Blue in the two vials.
- Fungus killed the eggs in the vials without Meth Blue.
- Eggs weren't fertile.

Of these possibilities, I feel the most likely are that the TDS is too high, or perhaps even more likely, that the eggs simply weren't fertile. I'll try the next spawn with even softer water to see what happens. Now if the eggs were infertile, this could be for a few reasons.

- Females were carrying old and/or calcified eggs as a result of not spawning for a while. If this is the case, then hopefully any new eggs generated will be healthy, now that these have been cleared out.
- Males need more practice. (Doubtful but possible)
- Males, and perhaps even females are beyond their breeding prime.
- Perhaps I have no males at all.
- Water parameters are not suitable for the sperm.

Ultimately I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.


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## shuks (Jul 10, 2005)

noob questin: whats TDS and methylene blue?



> - Males need more practice. (Doubtful but possible)


 Thats hellarious (however you spell it)...lol


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

5/28/2006 Continued: (Glowlight Day 10)

Nothing much new with the glowlight fry. He's still alive and kicking. The early fast rate of development seems to have slowed. Judging from the pictures, the fry's belly seems to be round and full, so I assume "he" is eating enough.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

shuks said:


> noob questin: whats TDS and methylene blue?
> 
> Thats hellarious (however you spell it)...lol


Sorry, I should have explained these a little better. TDS is short for Total Dissolved Solids. It's a measure of all solids (minerals, salts, etc) that are dissolved in water. It's a an all inclusive number, whereas something like GH only reports the amount of calcium and magnesium. TDS is usually measured with a TDS meter/probe.

Methylene Blue is a dye that is effective in preventing fungus from attacking fish eggs.

As for the males needing more practice, it is funny, but it actually happens with other fish.  I don't know if it's an issue with tetras though.

-Jeremiah

TDS Meter


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

5/31/2006: Glowlight Day 13

Here are a few pics from day 13. I can no longer take a decent measurement of the fry's length, but I would estimate it at about 1/4" or so.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Go little buddy! Grow, grow, grow!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Grow little buddy, grow! Everyone join in! John, thanks for the cheers for the fry. Maybe that should now be his official name, "Little Buddy", instead of just "Glowlight Fry" :thumbsup: 


On another note, I've got some good news. I'll post more info tonight when I have a little more time.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/3/2006: Glowlight Day 16

Over the last three days, I slowly adjusted the water in the glowlight vial to match my tap water conditions. After doing so, I moved Little Buddy to a critter keeper so that he would have more swimming space.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Viable Cardinal Egg!*

6/3/2006 Continued:

I've been checking the tetra tanks each morning for eggs. When I checked the cardinal tank I found that they had spawned again. I should mention that the cardinals seem to spawn at night, rather than in the morning as some places have reported. Everytime I've found eggs, it's always been immediately after I turn the lights on in the morning. I always catch the Cardinals asleep when I do, so I must assume that the spawnings are occuring at night some time. That would make the 4th spawning in the last 2 weeks. I found about 15 eggs total, and like before they didn't look to be in good condition. However, this time there was one that looked to be perfect. It was perfectly clear with no blemishes. I had high hopes for this egg and placed it in a vial by itself. I was so confident in the appearance of the egg, that I did not add methylene blue to the water.

Here's a pic of the egg with the ruler superimposed again. It appears that the egg is about 1/32" in diameter. Notice how clear it is compared to the previous pics I've posted.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

we are rooting for you little guy!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

fresh_newby said:


> we are rooting for you little guy!


Thanks!

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here's a pic of the same cardinal egg 3 or so hours later. You can see the embryo developing inside, so this is definitely a good egg. I've highlighted the embryo in blue and the yolk sack in yellow.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Two more shots taken about 4 hours after the previous one.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Successful Cardinal Hatch*

6/4/2006:

The next morning, I was happy to find that the Cardinal egg had hatched! I also checked the Cardinal tank to see if there was a new spawn. Although there were no new eggs, I noticed something dart across the substrate. I sucked it up with a medicine dropper and found that it was another Cardinal fry! I managed to find 3 newly hatched Cardinal fry in the tank, which I removed and placed into yet another seperate vial. That makes a total of 4 Cardinal fry, with the slight possibility of more hiding in the tank with the parents. Not the most spectacular results, but I'm happy to have had some success. From here on, it will hopefully be more practice and fine tuning with subsequent spawns.

Water Parameters: TDS of 220 when the spawn occured. When I found the first clear egg, I diluted the water in the tank and the vial just to be safe. Although I think the egg would have hatched without this. Later, if I continue to have spawns, I will experiment further to find minimums for hatching, etc. I hope the number of fertile eggs continues to increase as more spawnings occur. The final parameters in the tank after diluting were as follows:

TDS: 85
Nitrate: < 5
GH: ~ 25 ppm
KH: ~ 40 ppm
pH: ~ 6.0

We now know that these parameters are suitable for hatching. Later we'll see how far we can push these and still be successful. For now, 6/4/2006 marks Day 1 for the first Cardinal brood.












PS: I hope no one feels these pics are redundant after seeing all the glowlight pics already, I just want to be thorough with the documentation.


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## dakotaice (Apr 8, 2006)

This is amazing, awesome job! They almost seem microscopic.


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

wow this is sooo cool.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Aren't tetra eggs and fry supposed to be light sensitive? Or is that just "common knowledge?" _How _are you taking the pix? I'd be scared to *death *to hit them with enough light to take a photo :eek5: ! Especially after already meeting with some modest success :thumbsup: . Kudos to you!


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## shuks (Jul 10, 2005)

Not redundant what so ever! I love every picture. Again, the best documentation of tetra breeding I've ever seen.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

nicksgirl7705 said:


> This is amazing, awesome job! They almost seem microscopic.


Thanks! They are definitely nearly microscopic. I'll probably go blind after all the squinting I've been doing lately. :icon_eek: 



TheOtherGeoff said:


> wow this is sooo cool.


Yep, I'm really having fun with this project! 



RoseHawke said:


> Aren't tetra eggs and fry supposed to be light sensitive? Or is that just "common knowledge?" How are you taking the pix? I'd be scared to death to hit them with enough light to take a photo ! Especially after already meeting with some modest success . Kudos to you!


So far an official verdict on this remains to be seen. If my luck keeps up and I have spare fertile eggs I will test this to confirm. It may very well be that it is nothing more than "Folk Knowledge", but then again, sometimes such knowledge does prove to be true in the end. Everything I've read so far has stated that they are light sensitive, even to the point of suggesting that no light should go into the tank at all and that looking for eggs should only be done with a flashlight. So far, I'm beginning to suspect that they are not as extremely light sensitive as they are made out to be. As for taking the pics, I was afraid at first because I hold the vials up to a pretty bright light in order to get good shots. (4 x 32 Watt T8 fixture) This process takes at least 3 - 5 minutes to take a bunch of shots, so at the very least the eggs and the fry have stood up to that "torture." When freshly hatched, they do skitter around when I hold them up to the light for photos, but then again, I think any fish would do that if they had been in the dark and then suddenly subjected to very bright lights a few seconds later. Also, by day 5 I had the glowlight fry adapted to normal lighting with no apparent problems. Plus, the three cardinal eggs that hatched in the tank with the adults were in there all day with the aquarium lights on, although they may have been shaded by something. I'm sure they don't like bright light, but I wouldn't yet go so far as to say that it would kill them. Either way, it is my hope that by experimenting, I can either corroborate or disprove any folklore that surrounds breeding these fish, and it is a pleasure sharing the results with the public and this great forum. 

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

shuks said:


> Not redundant what so ever! I love every picture. Again, the best documentation of tetra breeding I've ever seen.


Great! I'm glad to hear it. Thanks again!

-Jeremiah


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

crshadow said:


> ". . . Either way, it is my hope that by experimenting, I can either corroborate or disprove any folklore that surrounds breeding these fish, and it is a pleasure sharing the results with the public and this great forum. "
> 
> -Jeremiah


That will be great, to perhaps finally know what's folklore, and what's not. I'll repeat what others have said in that this is the most exhaustive journal of a tetra breeding venture that I've seen. I looked into trying to breed Cardinals at one point, as you can't get Cardinal Tetras around here _at all,_ but the bit of info I was able to find scared me off. Perhaps this will inspire me to try again some day .


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Thanks for doing this crshadow! Very cool to see that it _can_ be done.


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## BlueRam (Sep 21, 2004)

You might consider the lasy method of fry recovery: Remove the adults and see what happens a week or so latter. I have done this with Zebra Danios and Killifish. Not as easy to take pictures though.


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## cleo (Apr 27, 2006)

This is a great journal!! So much fun to follow....and kudos to you for all your efforts. Hope to enjoy many more 'little fry' scenarios.

Cathy


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

co2 said:


> Thanks for doing this crshadow! Very cool to see that it can be done.


I was actually quite surprised that I was able to succeed at all, but I'm glad I did! 


RoseHawke said:


> That will be great, to perhaps finally know what's folklore, and what's not. I'll repeat what others have said in that this is the most exhaustive journal of a tetra breeding venture that I've seen. I looked into trying to breed Cardinals at one point, as you can't get Cardinal Tetras around here at all, but the bit of info I was able to find scared me off. Perhaps this will inspire me to try again some day .


Again, I'm happy to know that I've inspired people. 



BlueRam said:


> You might consider the lasy method of fry recovery: Remove the adults and see what happens a week or so latter. I have done this with Zebra Danios and Killifish. Not as easy to take pictures though.


I will be trying something along these lines pretty soon. For now, I'm hoping to get some practice raising these first batches of fry before I go all the way.



cleo said:


> This is a great journal!! So much fun to follow....and kudos to you for all your efforts. Hope to enjoy many more 'little fry' scenarios.
> 
> Cathy


Thanks! I've had pretty good luck so far with little fry scenarios, I hope it keeps up!


-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/5/2006: Cardinal Day 2

Two pics from day 2. The Cardinal fry is about 1/8" at this point. Pretty much the same size as the glowlight was at this stage.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/6/2006: Cardinal Day 3


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/7/2006: Cardinal Day 4











In this pic, the fry looks a little bit blue-ish, but I'm pretty sure it's due to the lighting.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/7/2006 Continued: Glowlight Day 20

Here's what Little Buddy is looking like on day 20. He's still eating and growing with no problems, and is approximately the size of a guppy fry now. I'd say about 1/2". I added a single ramshorn snail to his critter keeper/tank to eat any uneaten food. I'm feeding Little Buddy about twice a day with microworms. I pretty much just try to make sure that there are some wiggling in the tank at all times.


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## Lil boy blue (Jan 26, 2006)

Awesome play by play.....are the cardinals still spawning???


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

WOW congrats! i miss this for a few days... and u get a new lil fishy!

also in post 67 there looks to be TWO fry? i thought you said it was in its own vile?

or did you add the other ones to the containor too??

anyways its AWSOME!

- fish newb


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Lil boy blue said:


> Awesome play by play.....are the cardinals still spawning???


Thanks! Yep, the cardinals are still spawning. More on that later... :biggrin:


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Fish Newb said:


> WOW congrats! i miss this for a few days... and u get a new lil fishy!
> 
> also in post 67 there looks to be TWO fry? i thought you said it was in its own vile?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I probably wasn't too clear on what was in that picture. There are two separate vials of cardinal fry. One vial has 1 single cardinal fry, (first one I found) and the other vial has 3 cardinal fry. They were all hatched on the same day, so I kind of use pics of them interchangably as their development is at the same stage. I guess it depends on which fry are cooperating with the camera that day. Perhaps I should specify which vial of cardinal fry is being pictured. The 1st cardinal fry is kind of special, and maybe everyone would like to know how that same individual develops. I wonder if we should give him a nickname as well.... 

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/8/2006: Cardinal Day 5

The cardinal fry are starting to swim a bit, and so will soon need to be fed. I noticed that there were tiny little critters congregating around the snail poo in the glowlight container. So, I added some snail poo to the two cardinal vials to supply a small amount of supplemental infusoria. I will also be feeding with mini microworms again. As far as the mini microworms go I always try and feed the smallest worms in each batch. The smaller worms tend to be the ones that climb higher on the sides of microworm containers.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Another Cardinal Spawn!*

6/9/2006: Cardinal Day 6

I've fallen behind on updates again, sorry... 
Today brought a new cardinal spawn, the 5th spawn by them so far. It was a very small spawn, I only found about 6 eggs. The good news though is that 5 of the 6 eggs were fertile! Even though it is a small spawn, I'm happy to see the ratio of good eggs continuing to rise.

Meanwhile, the original batch of cardinals are on day 6.


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## SchmucK (Jun 9, 2006)

Fantastic documentation and a really interesting journal. Makes me want to start my own cardinal breeding colony


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

SchmucK said:


> Fantastic documentation and a really interesting journal. Makes me want to start my own cardinal breeding colony


Thank you. If you do start, I wish you the best of luck. :thumbsup:


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Large Glowlight Spawn!*

6/10/2006: A huge glowlight spawn!!!

I checked the tanks just before lights out and noticed the glowlights acting a little wierd. The male glowlight was following around one of the females and displaying in front of her every chance he got. Like many fish, the male displays by turning perpendicular to the female and extending his fins. They didn't seem to care that I was there, I suppose they were too preoccupied. I never saw any eggs produced though. I tried to take a few pics, but they didn't turn out too well since the fish were moving around a lot.

After putting down the camera I took a closer look and saw several eggs on the java moss. The more I looked, the more I found. Once again I gathered as many eggs as I could with a medicine dropper and placed them in a cup. This was never too big a deal before with the smaller spawns, but it was a little tedious this time around!  In the end, I had 80 - 100 eggs in the clear cup. I'm sure some eggs were left behind in the tank, we'll see if they survive in there with the adults. Also, since there were so many eggs, I put an additional 4 eggs in a separate vial which would be left under normal aquarium level lighting to see if they would be injured/killed by the light at all.

This was all at around 1:00am. This seems to confirm what I had noticed earlier in the thread, that they seem to spawn at night, rather than in the morning. All the eggs were clear at that time, but by morning about 20 eggs (presumably the infertile ones) had turned whitish. By 1:00am the following night, (24 hours later) the first of the eggs started to hatch.

So far, spawning timeline appears to be as follows:

0 Hours: Spawn occurs late at night, probably shortly after lights out.
12 Hours: Bad eggs have started to turn opaque.
Adults start hunting for eggs to eat in the morning as well.
24 Hours: Eggs start to Hatch
36 Hours: All eggs have hatched, and bad eggs are completely white.

Water parameters:

TDS: ~ 200 ppm
Nitrate: 0-5 ppm
GH: ~ 70 ppm
KH: ~ 50 ppm
pH: ~ 6.0

Things that may have helped trigger them:

- Two days prior, I had topped off the tank water a tad with RO/DI water.
- About an hour or 2 before the spawn occured, I had placed a piece of cardboard over the top of the tank so that only ambient room light would enter the tank. I was hoping to roughly simulate dusk.

A couple shots of the male glowlight courting the female. Sorry, they're not the best pics, but you sort of get the idea.


















Here's a pic of what the eggs look like in the tank.










Finally, here's one of all the eggs in the clear cup. There looks to be about 80 eggs on the bottom of the cup, and there are a few more stuck to the java moss thats with them in the cup. For the record, all the eggs are slightly sticky, but not extremely so.


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## SchmucK (Jun 9, 2006)

That's a massive spawn, who knew little tetras dumped so many eggs. Hope all goes well


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## Alight (Dec 10, 2005)

Great thread! Fun to see Cardinal tetra spawning.

I don't know if Cardinals are like Discus, but Discus eggs don't fertilize well and won't hatch if GH is over 6. Best fertility and hatching is with 2 GH or under (34ppm or under). This is because of the calcium. Calcium toughens the eggs and prevents the sperm from fertilizing the eggs and the eggs from hatching. Eggs in the fish don't seem to be affected as many breeders soften the water to 2 GH just before they spawn, and have great results.

I have heard that some who are breeding Cardinals put them in a mesh bag (keeps the adults in, but big enough mesh for the eggs to fall through) with some java moss, with the idea that the eggs will fall through the bag to the tank bottom (bare bottom) and then the adults can be taken out of the tank and the fry raised in the tank.


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## Color Me Blue (Nov 10, 2005)

Excellent thread! I look forward to future updates.  (my first thread subscription)

Grow Little Buddy, grow! hehe


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

I just love this journal. Thanks again for going to the trouble of maintaining it.


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

This thread is great. I can't wait to see how many glowlights you'll have. Good luck with the cardinals.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

SchmucK said:


> That's a massive spawn, who knew little tetras dumped so many eggs. Hope all goes well


Thanks, I was happy to have a nice sized spawn. Supposedly they can produce even larger numbers... We'll see!



Alight said:


> Great thread! Fun to see Cardinal tetra spawning.
> 
> I don't know if Cardinals are like Discus, but Discus eggs don't fertilize well and won't hatch if GH is over 6. Best fertility and hatching is with 2 GH or under (34ppm or under). This is because of the calcium. Calcium toughens the eggs and prevents the sperm from fertilizing the eggs and the eggs from hatching. Eggs in the fish don't seem to be affected as many breeders soften the water to 2 GH just before they spawn, and have great results.
> 
> I have heard that some who are breeding Cardinals put them in a mesh bag (keeps the adults in, but big enough mesh for the eggs to fall through) with some java moss, with the idea that the eggs will fall through the bag to the tank bottom (bare bottom) and then the adults can be taken out of the tank and the fry raised in the tank.


I suspect you are right on the GH issue. So far I have gotten better results with each subsequent spawn in softer and softer water. 

I will be trying something along the lines of a mesh or grid sometime in the near future once I am comfortable trying for a large spawn. I'll keep everyone updated.



Color Me Blue said:


> Excellent thread! I look forward to future updates. (my first thread subscription)
> 
> Grow Little Buddy, grow! hehe


Thank you, I'm honored to be your first thread subscription. Little Buddy is still steadily growing. I hope to update soon...




John P. said:


> I just love this journal. Thanks again for going to the trouble of maintaining it.


No problem, I just wish I had a little more free time so that I wouldn't have to leave everyone hanging for several days in between.



Cardinal Tetra said:


> This thread is great. I can't wait to see how many glowlights you'll have. Good luck with the cardinals.


Thank you very much. So far so good!

-Jeremiah


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

crshadow said:


> The TDS results were as follows:
> 
> Glowlight Vial: 287 ppm (Hatching Successful)
> Cardinal Vial: 281 ppm (Hatching Unsuccessful)
> ...


Holy cow! I didnt know readings went that high!!!

I would pass out if I saw those numbers.
I cant help but notice your hardness going down and down.

Are you converting the dh to ppm? I was just wondering how your were getting those numbers.

I would also like to see what your conclusion is about the light sensitive eggs and fry.

Great work here...thanks for the BAP cheatsheet


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Brilliant said:


> Holy cow! I didnt know readings went that high!!!
> 
> I would pass out if I saw those numbers.
> I cant help but notice your hardness going down and down.
> ...


Yep, we've got pretty hard water in our area. As for the numbers, my TDS meter reports directly in PPM.

As for the light sensitivity test, I meant to release the details of it as the journal progressed, but since I once again fell behind on updates, I'll spill the beans. Out of 4 fry, I only lost 1, and the remaining 3 are still going strong to this day. However, I don't think the death was a result of the light, but rather for another reason, which I will address in more detail later. So, I'd have to say that at least for the glowlights, that light sensitivity is pretty much a non issue. The same remains to be seen for the cardinals though. I will run a similar test with them once I have enough of 'em.

...and you're welcome for cheat sheet.  It's been my pleasure. :thumbsup: Unfortunately I don't have any clubs in my area, so no breeder points for me! :icon_cry:


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Nice sized Cardinal Spawn!*

6/12/2006:

Finally a decent sized cardinal spawn! I managed to find about 30 good cardinal eggs this time around. If I can successfully raise these little guys, I'll have me a nice little school. I didn't get any pics of the eggs though, sorry.


Here's a pic of the first cardinal who's currently at day 9 as of 6/12/2006.









Here's Little Buddy on day 25, also 6/12/2006.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Tragedy Strikes!*

6/14/2006: Cardinal Day 11

Today, the first cardinal is not looking well at all. Actually he looks pretty bad. As best as I can tell, it seems like the fry gorged himself on microworms to the point of damaging himself internally. You can see the large mass of partially digested material coming out of his vent. He died the next day. His siblings from the same spawn are still around so I will continue to document their development in his place.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/15/2006:

Here's a cardinal shot from day 12










And a pic of the large batch of glowlights which are now free swimming!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/16/2006:

Today I found a surprise in the glowlight parent tank. It seems that Little Buddy has an older brother! Based on the size of him (about 3/4"+) I would guess that he is several weeks ahead of Little Buddy. This is interesting because that means that he hatched in 612 PPM water, and managed to avoid getting eaten this whole time.


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## lumpyfunk (Dec 22, 2004)

crshadow said:


> 6/16/2006:
> 
> Today I found a surprise in the glowlight parent tank. It seems that Little Buddy has an older brother! Based on the size of him (about 3/4"+) I would guess that he is several weeks ahead of Little Buddy. This is interesting because that means that he hatched in 612 PPM water, and managed to avoid getting eaten this whole time.


Welcome Skipper?


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Wow--he actually looks like a tetra!


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## Color Me Blue (Nov 10, 2005)

They grow so fast!


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

crshadow said:


> ". . . Today I found a surprise in the glowlight parent tank. It seems that Little Buddy has an older brother! Based on the size of him (about 3/4"+) I would guess that he is several weeks ahead of Little Buddy. This is interesting because that means that he hatched in 612 PPM water, and managed to avoid getting eaten this whole time. . . "


What is that quote from Jurassic Park? "Life will find a way"? Or something like that, I only saw that movie once. I did a semi-breakdown of my 55 yesterday and now know for certain that I have 8 Harlequin Rasbora fry of various ages which like yours managed to hatch, eat, and grow without getting eaten. Maybe you'll likewise be pleasantly surprised with some "extra" Cardinals!

It's the Cardinals I'm waiting on . . . (big cardinal fan here, just can't _find_ any  .)


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

RoseHawke said:


> What is that quote from Jurassic Park? "Life will find a way"? Or something like that, I only saw that movie once. I did a semi-breakdown of my 55 yesterday and now know for certain that I have 8 Harlequin Rasbora fry of various ages which like yours managed to hatch, eat, and grow without getting eaten. Maybe you'll likewise be pleasantly surprised with some "extra" Cardinals!
> 
> It's the Cardinals I'm waiting on . . . (big cardinal fan here, just can't _find_ any  .)


I am too and watching this post intently. Just had an opportunity to pick up nine cardinals to have seven go belly up in three days.  I also like the intent crshadow has with sharing his progress. Get the myth of breeding out of the way so we my start creating our own breeding populations and get out of the habbit of ripping them out of the wild.

I was shocked to find them in Tracy at Petco a few months back. I didn't pick any up at the time and they will not be restocking them, likely cause of the dead loss issue. I kick myself cause there were like 50 healthy looking fish and I could have had enough to start trying this myself....

I could only hope for a Harlequin Rasbora spawn, I like the 10 living in my 55 as well. Time to start reading. 

Keep up the good work and were all rooting for you!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

crshadow said:


> Yep, we've got pretty hard water in our area. As for the numbers, my TDS meter reports directly in PPM.



Well I meant the seperate GH and KH ppm readings.
How are you getting those seperate reading in ppm?
Are you measuring KH then subtracting that value from the entire TDS?

I also have a TDS meter but I dont know how to measure my KH & GH seperatly besides drops.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Woops, a lot to reply to...



lumpyfunk said:


> Welcome Skipper?


Heh heh, that fits the bill! Skipper it is!



John P. said:


> Wow--he actually looks like a tetra!


Yep! Can't wait for the rest to start looking like mini adults.



Color Me Blue said:


> They grow so fast!


Yeah, not a bad growth rate for such a tiny fish!




RoseHawke said:


> What is that quote from Jurassic Park? "Life will find a way"? Or something like that, I only saw that movie once. I did a semi-breakdown of my 55 yesterday and now know for certain that I have 8 Harlequin Rasbora fry of various ages which like yours managed to hatch, eat, and grow without getting eaten. Maybe you'll likewise be pleasantly surprised with some "extra" Cardinals!
> 
> It's the Cardinals I'm waiting on . . . (big cardinal fan here, just can't find any .)


Wow, Rasbora fry! That's great! Aren't they supposed to be hard to breed also? Congrats!

I'm really hoping to have good luck with these Cardinals. So far so good... A few deaths thus far, but I suppose its to be expected for the first time around. If I get to the point where I'm successful enough to have extras, I'll probably start selling the extras. You'll be first in line if you are interested!  I'm also anxious to see how they fare being shipped as compared to wild caught specimens. I suspect they'll do a heck of a lot better. I'm really hoping that being captive bred, they won't suffer the usual massive die-off.



kzr750r1 said:


> I am too and watching this post intently. Just had an opportunity to pick up nine cardinals to have seven go belly up in three days. I also like the intent crshadow has with sharing his progress. Get the myth of breeding out of the way so we my start creating our own breeding populations and get out of the habbit of ripping them out of the wild.
> 
> I was shocked to find them in Tracy at Petco a few months back. I didn't pick any up at the time and they will not be restocking them, likely cause of the dead loss issue. I kick myself cause there were like 50 healthy looking fish and I could have had enough to start trying this myself....
> 
> ...


Thanks! I appreciate the support! I feel your pain with the cardinals... If you've seen my 125 gallon journal there was a point that I bought 80 cardinals only to lose about 60 of them! :icon_cry: I hope things continue to go well with this endeavor!



Brilliant said:


> Well I meant the seperate GH and KH ppm readings.
> How are you getting those seperate reading in ppm?
> Are you measuring KH then subtracting that value from the entire TDS?
> 
> I also have a TDS meter but I dont know how to measure my KH & GH seperatly besides drops.


Sorry, I misunderstood your question the first time. Unfortunately there's no reliable way to ascertain GH and KH from a TDS meter because of other solids such as sodium that could be adding to the TDS. So I have to use a seperate test kit for GH and KH if I want more specific readings. If those test kits report in degrees of hardness, I multiply the degrees times 17.9 to get the results in PPM. The main reason I'm focusing on TDS is because it is a quick and easy way to make a rough estimate of overall hardness, much simpler than busting out the test kits every time.

-Jeremiah


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

crshadow said:


> ". . . Wow, Rasbora fry! That's great! Aren't they supposed to be hard to breed also? Congrats!


Yep, but nobody told *mine *that :icon_roll! I saw them going at it _again_ in the shrubbery yesterday. I did an almost total breakdown of the tank this last weekend with the exception of pulling the substrate (algae issues, you don't want to know,) including pulling out all the driftwood which I'm leaving out for now. I thought the driftwood (Malaysian) was probably having a softening effect on the water and that I wouldn't see any more spawning activity. 

Guess I was wrong . Apparently my water parameters just agrees with them. I wish I could take credit for it, but it was/is just a total accident. No special food, just regular flake with the occasional freeze-dried tubifex, no special preparations whatsoever. 

I'm not sure I'd have your dedication to detail in breeding and raising Cardinals, but it's fun to speculate about .


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

Updates, please! Pictures, too! How are the Cardinal fry doing?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> Yep, but nobody told *mine *that :icon_roll! I saw them going at it _again_ in the shrubbery yesterday. I did an almost total breakdown of the tank this last weekend with the exception of pulling the substrate (algae issues, you don't want to know,) including pulling out all the driftwood which I'm leaving out for now. I thought the driftwood (Malaysian) was probably having a softening effect on the water and that I wouldn't see any more spawning activity.
> 
> Guess I was wrong . Apparently my water parameters just agrees with them. I wish I could take credit for it, but it was/is just a total accident. No special food, just regular flake with the occasional freeze-dried tubifex, no special preparations whatsoever.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd have your dedication to detail in breeding and raising Cardinals, but it's fun to speculate about .


Wow, you're tempting me to try to breed harlequins later on.  I have a batch where, about a year ago, a few individuals would go under a leaf, and turn upside down, but no eggs were ever produced. I still have them, but they haven't done this in a long time... Oh well...

I hope everything works out with your algae issues BTW.



John P. said:


> Updates, please! Pictures, too! How are the Cardinal fry doing?


Sorry to keep everyone in suspense, work has been hectic lately. The Cardinal fry are doing more or less okay. I've had a few deaths among the Cardinals and Glowlights. I'll go into more detail in a few minutes, when I post the official update. Stay tuned. :fish:


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

*Deaths...*

So far, out every batch of fry there have been some losses. The percentages have varied a little from batch to batch. When raising fish it's pretty much normal to assume you will lose a few individuals, but I've lost more than 50% in a couple batches. Here's a breakdown:


_______Batch_______ | Total Fry | Losses | Percentage
1st Glowlight Spawn | 2 | 1 | 50%
2nd Glowlight Spawn | 75| 25| 33%
1st Cardinal Spawn. | 4 | 2 | 50%
2nd Cardinal Spawn. | 5 | 4 | 80%
3rd Cardinal Spawn. | 25| 15| 60%



All the fry that died had either one (or both) of the following symptoms:

1. They looked like the cardinal fry that died a few posts back with the bent tail and large mass of digested material in their intestine.
2. They were belly sliders that would only swim along the bottom and never up into the water.

The first symptom led me to assume that I was overfeeding. Earlier I mentioned that I had been feeding enough microworms so that there would be some in the fry containers at all times. After this, I decided to adjust my feeding to where I would give the fry an amount they could eat in about two hours or so. A few hours later, if there were no more worms on the bottom, I would feed again.

As for the belly sliding symptom, I did some research online and found several potential causes of this problem in fry.
- Overfeeding which swells the stomach, which in turn puts pressure on the swim bladder, possibly preventing it from properly inflating.
- Inadequate dissolved oxygen levels which prevents the fry from inflating their swim bladder for the first time.
- Bacterial Infection
- Congenital Defect

The first two catch my attention, as they seem to be a good possibility. After reducing the feedings, the deaths seemed to stop. Although, the possibility remains that the deaths only stopped because the weak had already died off. I'll have to try the reduced feeding on future batches to truly confirm. As good measure, I will also add some light aeration to future spawns.

I guess the bottom line is that during this early stage, it's important to find the right balance between tank size, feeding, etc. A small size tank makes it easier to find food which helps them to grow, but at the same time probably makes it easier for them to over eat. Yet, at the same time, you want them to eat as much as safely possible so that they can grow fast and get past this difficult stage quicker. 

We'll see what the next few weeks brings.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here is a picture taken of one of the near death fry under the microscope. I have a cheapy Wal-Mart microscope, so in order to take these pictures, I had to hold my camera up to the eyepiece. Also by doing this, the camera can't see the entire image at once and only gets a small circle shaped image showing only a piece of what can be seen, as compared to when you hold up your eye instead. So, to get an image of the whole fry, I had to paste several images next to eachother to make one whole composite image.










Here's another composite image of the same fish.










Finally, here's the last image again, but this time highlighted to show different parts of the fry's anatomy. If I have mislabeled any of these parts, please feel free to correct me.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Here are a couple more microscopy pics for fun.

Two paramecium near the fry.











A microworm, a paramecium, and some other wierd critter.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

6/25/2006:

Here are two pics of one of the Cardinals at day 22.



















And finally one of Little Buddy on day 38.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

that's great. i accidentally got some guppy fry in the bag the last time i bought ghost shrimp, and then i saw one yesterday creeping around my riccia. he's been hiding and surviving.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

crshadow said:


> "Wow, you're tempting me to try to breed harlequins later on.  I have a batch where, about a year ago, a few individuals would go under a leaf, and turn upside down, but no eggs were ever produced. I still have them, but they haven't done this in a long time... Oh well..."


I didn't think they were producing eggs either, but obviously at least occasionally they were. 

I don't keep exhaustive records (I should obviously,) so I don't know how much bearing this has on the spawning behavior of Harlequins, but at one point I was also tinkering with my CO2 rates while converting to keeping it on 24/7. Well, on a couple of occasions I cranked it up too much to wake up to fish cruising the surface in a search for oxygen. So I threw in a bubble wand and/or did a water change. Well directly after that there was pretty frenzied spawning activity. Not one or two, _every Harlequin._ The lack of oxygen followed by oxygenated water? Addition of cool water mimicking spring rains? _¿Quien sabe?_ Although I'm not sure I'd advocate purposely suffocating fish in an effort to get them to spawn! Something to think about though.

On feeding in a larger container: I had a Blue Ram spawn of about 30 at one time (another surprise) that I pulled from the community tank and put in a 10 gallon that I happened to have on hand along with one of those little cheapie sponge filters set to just put a slow stream of bubbles. Just enough to agitate the surface a bit. I kept it filled maybe a third. I found that the fry pretty much schooled in one spot, and for the first few days I sort of squirted with a small turkey baster infusoria that I had frantically cultivated in their general direction (Ram fry are _tiny!_) Even though they had a lot of area, especially given their small size, they seemed to find the food fine. At the time I could only hope they were eating because they were just about too small to see. Within a week, though, I'd graduated them to BBS and I could see them eating. Again, they pretty much stayed in a little "school" all in one area and I could squirt the stuff in their general direction. I lost the spawn due to my own ignorance when after a month/six weeks I thought I could probably try frozen BBS as it would make life easier. They were all dead the next morning . Still don't know what happened, possibly too much organic matter caused an ammonia spike, although the water tested out fine, or perhaps the stuff was spoiled. I just know if I ever have another spawn like that I will _not_ try frozen BBS!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

the_noobinator said:


> that's great. i accidentally got some guppy fry in the bag the last time i bought ghost shrimp, and then i saw one yesterday creeping around my riccia. he's been hiding and surviving.


I love little surprises like that!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> I didn't think they were producing eggs either, but obviously at least occasionally they were.
> 
> I don't keep exhaustive records (I should obviously,) so I don't know how much bearing this has on the spawning behavior of Harlequins, but at one point I was also tinkering with my CO2 rates while converting to keeping it on 24/7. Well, on a couple of occasions I cranked it up too much to wake up to fish cruising the surface in a search for oxygen. So I threw in a bubble wand and/or did a water change. Well directly after that there was pretty frenzied spawning activity. Not one or two, _every Harlequin._ The lack of oxygen followed by oxygenated water? Addition of cool water mimicking spring rains? _¿Quien sabe?_ Although I'm not sure I'd advocate purposely suffocating fish in an effort to get them to spawn! Something to think about though.
> 
> On feeding in a larger container: I had a Blue Ram spawn of about 30 at one time (another surprise) that I pulled from the community tank and put in a 10 gallon that I happened to have on hand along with one of those little cheapie sponge filters set to just put a slow stream of bubbles. Just enough to agitate the surface a bit. I kept it filled maybe a third. I found that the fry pretty much schooled in one spot, and for the first few days I sort of squirted with a small turkey baster infusoria that I had frantically cultivated in their general direction (Ram fry are _tiny!_) Even though they had a lot of area, especially given their small size, they seemed to find the food fine. At the time I could only hope they were eating because they were just about too small to see. Within a week, though, I'd graduated them to BBS and I could see them eating. Again, they pretty much stayed in a little "school" all in one area and I could squirt the stuff in their general direction. I lost the spawn due to my own ignorance when after a month/six weeks I thought I could probably try frozen BBS as it would make life easier. They were all dead the next morning . Still don't know what happened, possibly too much organic matter caused an ammonia spike, although the water tested out fine, or perhaps the stuff was spoiled. I just know if I ever have another spawn like that I will _not_ try frozen BBS!


Interesting observation about the CO2...

Ack! Sorry to hear about the loss of all your ram fry... That's the kind of situation I'm worried about with the cardinal fry, losing them from one day to the next. I'm bummed that I've lost as many as I have so far... Fortunately it seems like I haven't lost many anymore though. So far so good with the moderate feeding. If overfeeding was my problem, I don't know if it was because the fry were eating too much, or if the excess was fouling the water. Perhaps a little of both... Anyway, I'll hopefully post an update later tonight.


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

RoseHawke said:


> Not one or two, _every Harlequin._ The lack of oxygen followed by oxygenated water? Addition of cool water mimicking spring rains? _¿Quien sabe?_


Most likely the pH was to their liking (low) b/c of the CO2 increase and the O2 introduced in the water let them respirate well enough to get frisky.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Very possibly. I don't believe I had my PH monitor set up at the time (I needed a new probe) and I don't remember testing PH. After all, if you've got fish cruising the surface it's pretty obvious what the problem is ! But it's a pretty good bet that it was south of 6.0. I may — cautiously — try something of the sort in the future as an experiment.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

John P, Rosehawke, great info! I really appreciate your contributions to this endeavor. 

-Jeremiah


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Wow I didnt realized they grew that slow. My Cardinals were probably like 3 months old when I got em they barely had coloring. I ended up feeding them daphnia and BBS to beef them up. I ended up losing a majority of them on arrival. I quarantined the rest for four weeks (next time I will do eight or more) and they were much larger with solid coloring.

Can you PM me where you got your Cardinals from before?

I think this post is excellent and the pictures are outstanding considering what your working with. Good job


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Brilliant said:


> Wow I didnt realized they grew that slow. My Cardinals were probably like 3 months old when I got em they barely had coloring. I ended up feeding them daphnia and BBS to beef them up. I ended up losing a majority of them on arrival. I quarantined the rest for four weeks (next time I will do eight or more) and they were much larger with solid coloring.
> 
> Can you PM me where you got your Cardinals from before?
> 
> I think this post is excellent and the pictures are outstanding considering what your working with. Good job



If I had to guestimate, I'd say they have about a medium growth rate. So far it seems like the glowlights grow a little faster than the cardinals. As this journal progresses I'm sure we'll get a better idea of their growth rate. What doesn't help is that I've been playing around with feeding amounts to prevent deaths, so its hard to say what their maximum growth rate could be if I were to really powerfeed them.

As for where I got the Cardinals, I got them from my local fish store as a special order.

Thanks for the compliments, it's really tough to get a good pic of these little guys, and I'm not the best photographer.  The microscope pics were a real pain, but fun nonetheless.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

You'll get a better feel for growth rate after a few more sucessfull hatches. Glad to hear they are doing better. Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:


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## co2 (Sep 13, 2004)

Any updates?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Yet again, I apologize for the recent lack of updates. This week I've been out of commission completely. I had the misfortune of having a detached retina and underwent eye surgery for it the other day. I'm currently recovering and will update soon. The fish are still alive and my wife has been nice enough to take care of them for me. Stay tuned...


-Jeremiah


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Oh, my :icon_eek: ! I hope everything went well and that you'll be better and back up to snuff in no time! No jumping up and down for _you_ for a while !


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

crshadow said:


> Stay tuned...
> 
> 
> -Jeremiah


dont worry we all are........ lets just hope you dont have the same thing happen to you as it did with rex and his wife's help....:icon_roll


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

crshadow said:


> Yet again, I apologize for the recent lack of updates. This week I've been out of commission completely. I had the misfortune of having a detached retina and underwent eye surgery for it the other day. I'm currently recovering and will update soon. The fish are still alive and my wife has been nice enough to take care of them for me. Stay tuned...
> 
> 
> -Jeremiah


hey my g/f had that happen to her. recovery was quick and pretty easy.


----------



## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> Oh, my :icon_eek: ! I hope everything went well and that you'll be better and back up to snuff in no time! No jumping up and down for _you_ for a while !


I've had a few followups since the procedure and everything seems to be healing quite nicely. I won't take it my eyes for granted any more, that's for sure!



Fish Newb said:


> dont worry we all are........ lets just hope you dont have the same thing happen to you as it did with rex and his wife's help....


Are you referring to the time Rex's wife mowed down the tank? My wife's pretty good with the fish, she wouldn't overfeed or anything. For simplicity I was having her feed golden pearls instead of the microworms.



TheOtherGeoff said:


> hey my g/f had that happen to her. recovery was quick and pretty easy.


I'm glad to hear that the recovery was pretty easy. Has she had any problems since then? For me they ended up installing a scleral buckle around my eye to fix the problem. It's been nearly a month since the surgery and they said I can pretty much go back to normal activity, even exercise and shoveling in the garden, etc. Although now I'm a little paranoid about overdoing it with those types of activity now...


To All: Thanks to everyone who keeps an eye on this thread. I'm sorry that I haven't been able to keep it updated. There's just been so much going on latetly that I haven't been able to give it, or the fish the time they deserve. Hopefully I can get back on track soon. I had started a couple new experiments with the fish but they fizzled out when all the eye stuff happened. Little Buddy is still around, although I've lost a lot of the smaller cardinal and glowlight fry. Probably due to starvation. As I mentioned earlier, we had been feeding them golden pearls instead of live food, and I don't think they took too well to the food...

-Jeremiah


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

I was wondering what happened. Sorry to hear about your eye, and now the fry deaths. 
Keep up the good work. Personally, after my last disaster buying cardnals I'm done till I can start setting up some more bare tanks to do the same. Breed my own. Good to learn micro pearls are not the bees knees.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Really great work Jeremiah. And I'm glad you're eye is healing up. That's the most important. I haven't been here in too long of while and WOW, this is fun stuff to read! Loved the microscope shots and nice photoshop work! Thanks for this terrific thread! Little Buddy is starting to look like bigger Buddy...


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

kzr750r1 said:


> I was wondering what happened. Sorry to hear about your eye, and now the fry deaths.
> Keep up the good work. Personally, after my last disaster buying cardnals I'm done till I can start setting up some more bare tanks to do the same. Breed my own. Good to learn micro pearls are not the bees knees.


Thanks for the encouragement. I was very disappointed with the fry deaths... I'll be starting over soon though. Hopefully with larger batches of fry. I used the smallest size of golden pearls available and they just didn't seem to want to eat it. What doesn't help is that it tends to float, but the fry seem to prefer to eat off of the tank floor. Little Buddy liked it though. Probably because he was large enough to be weaned off of the live foods.



Betowess said:


> Really great work Jeremiah. And I'm glad you're eye is healing up. That's the most important. I haven't been here in too long of while and WOW, this is fun stuff to read! Loved the microscope shots and nice photoshop work! Thanks for this terrific thread! Little Buddy is starting to look like bigger Buddy...


Thanks, I'm glad you like the thread. It's been a pleasure working on it. Little Buddy looks even more like his older brother now. I really hope to get working on it again soon. Life has been beating me up this year....

-Jeremiah


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## turbosaurus (Nov 19, 2005)

Don't get discouraged, none of my fry would ever eat any size of golden pearls until they were a couple weeks old. They would starve to death before they got smart enough to realize it was food. Not surprising considering the size of the brain - that I was lucky enough to see via your excellent pictures, so keep it up. Try and stick to live food for the first couple days (weeks). 
You're making terrific progress no matter what. Look at how many people can't keep cardinals alive- never mind getting them to breed. 
Hope the Eye continues to improve, 
Paula


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

turbosaurus said:


> Don't get discouraged, none of my fry would ever eat any size of golden pearls until they were a couple weeks old. They would starve to death before they got smart enough to realize it was food. Not surprising considering the size of the brain - that I was lucky enough to see via your excellent pictures, so keep it up. Try and stick to live food for the first couple days (weeks).
> You're making terrific progress no matter what. Look at how many people can't keep cardinals alive- never mind getting them to breed.
> Hope the Eye continues to improve,
> Paula


Thanks for the encouragement Paula, I really appreciate it.  Sadly, the last of the cardinal fry and glowlight fry passed away shortly after my last post. I suspect they were not eating the golden pearls and were simply too starved to make a comeback by the time I resumed their normal diet. Nevertheless I will try again soon, now that things are getting back on track. Even though I lost all the fry, I am happy that this experment has shown that getting cardinals to spawn is very possible. Next attempt will be with the most optimal of conditions.

On a lighter note, Little Buddy as well as his older illegitimate sibling are both doing great! I think Little Buddy was the only fry that was large/old enough to be able to be weaned to golden pearls, hence he survived and is doing quite well. I'll post an updated picture of him a little later on.

-Jeremiah


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## ouranos (Aug 24, 2005)

Just seeing this for the first time and WOW what a great thread. It's OK if things don't work out the first few times. Your documentation is an important contribution, particularly the pics - I'm sorry if I've missed it, but what's your photo setup? What microscope are you using, can you give specs (i.e. mag, brand and type of scope, optics, etc.)

But really the photo documentation makes this thread - great job and thanks for going through the trouble of posting all of them.

good luck


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

ouranos said:


> Just seeing this for the first time and WOW what a great thread. It's OK if things don't work out the first few times. Your documentation is an important contribution, particularly the pics - I'm sorry if I've missed it, but what's your photo setup? What microscope are you using, can you give specs (i.e. mag, brand and type of scope, optics, etc.)
> 
> But really the photo documentation makes this thread - great job and thanks for going through the trouble of posting all of them.
> 
> good luck


Thanks! My camera is a Sony DSC F707, no special lenses or anything. As for the microscope, it is a Meade, but it's a cheapy Wal-mart model for kids. roud: Magnification for the microscope pics was about 40x if I recall correctly. To take the microscope pics, I just held the camera up to the eyepiece. Nothing fancy.

Best Regards,

Jeremiah


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## ForeverGreen (Sep 5, 2006)

Wow! I just read all 9 pages. Awesome! Thanks for sharing.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

crshadow said:


> Thanks for the encouragement Paula, I really appreciate it.  Sadly, the last of the cardinal fry and glowlight fry passed away shortly after my last post. I suspect they were not eating the golden pearls and were simply too starved to make a comeback by the time I resumed their normal diet. Nevertheless I will try again soon, now that things are getting back on track. Even though I lost all the fry, I am happy that this experment has shown that getting cardinals to spawn is very possible. Next attempt will be with the most optimal of conditions.
> 
> On a lighter note, Little Buddy as well as his older illegitimate sibling are both doing great! I think Little Buddy was the only fry that was large/old enough to be able to be weaned to golden pearls, hence he survived and is doing quite well. I'll post an updated picture of him a little later on.
> 
> -Jeremiah


:bounce: !yay! :bounce: 

and heck... now you can do better learning from your mistake!

good luck!

- fish newb -


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

how are they looking lately?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Fish Newb said:


> :bounce: !yay! :bounce:
> 
> and heck... now you can do better learning from your mistake!
> 
> ...


Yep! I'm really hoping to raise some decent quantities next time around.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

the_noobinator said:


> how are they looking lately?


Well, unfortunately the only survivor was "Little Buddy." Here are two shots of him on 9/16/2006. He's about 4 months old now.


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## thumperinflorida (Mar 27, 2006)

Excellent reading. I live smack in the middle of Florida's fish farming business. Many farms within a 10 mile radius. I've visited a farm recently that has decided to concentrate on breeding Neon's, as opposed to importing them. Common for them to lose 50% of all imports. 
It was interesting and very over-whelming. They had the University of Florida's Fish and Aquatic science people step in and help out with water chemistry and nutrition for fry. 

Kudos for a great read and all the photos. Good luck in your endeavor


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

I wonder if culturing green water would be a good food source for the first couple weeks?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Great input, you two.

*thumperinflorida:* Very interesting, were you able to glean any tips on fry nutrition while you were there? What about technique?  :drool: 

*AaronT:* I remember you and another member had suggested this before. Nevertheless I had not forgotten the suggestion. I was originally hoping to get away with just microworms, but even though they can take microworms, perhaps the greenwater will work a little better for the first few days/weeks. On that note, I've been preparing for phase 2 of the project where I will attempt to get the best results so far. I've been preparing a tank to supply greenwater for the last couple of weeks.

Here's a pic of the tank:









I may move the culture outside so it can get nice and soupy. I'll also be starting a seperate infusoria culture as yet another food source. Hopefully the balanced nutrition will work better for them.

-Jeremiah


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Haha, Did we get a preview peek of the new fishroom here? LOL


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

That's some nice looking green water.  If you move it outside be watchful for mosquito larvae. Of course, you can always net those out and feed them to the adult fish too.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Betowess said:


> Haha, Did we get a preview peak of the new fishroom here? LOL


LOL, I guess that would in fact be a small unexpected sneak peak of the fishroom.  You can spot a tank of Half Black Yellow guppies as well as the blue painted wall of the fishroom in the background.



AaronT said:


> That's some nice looking green water. If you move it outside be watchful for mosquito larvae. Of course, you can always net those out and feed them to the adult fish too.


Contamination would definitely be a concern if I moved it outside. I don't mind mosquito larvae too much, but I wonder what sort of other nasties could end up in the tank? :icon_eek: 

-Jeremiah


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

any insect larvae would cause me to worry about pesticides.


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

lol, nice green water culture. Normally you see a glass jar of it on a windowsill, this is the first time I've seen 20 gallons of it


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

what kind of rack do you have built for your tanks? i'm very interested in having one made.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

hooha said:


> lol, nice green water culture. Normally you see a glass jar of it on a windowsill, this is the first time I've seen 20 gallons of it


I want to make sure I have plenty of it! 




the_noobinator said:


> what kind of rack do you have built for your tanks? i'm very interested in having one made.


It's a fairly simple rack constructed out of 4x4's for vertical members, and 2x4's strapped together as horizontal supports. Plywood and formica for where the tanks sit. I'll be posting some pictures and drawings of the racks in the fishroom journal shortly.


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## TheXman (Oct 27, 2006)

Any updates on the Cardinal Tetra Breeding Project? It sounded like you were starting to have some success!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

TheXman said:


> Any updates on the Cardinal Tetra Breeding Project? It sounded like you were starting to have some success!


Unfortunately the project is still temporarily on pause as I've had a lot going on lately. I hope to resume shortly. Sorry for the delays everyone...

-Jeremiah


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Wow, I can't believe it's been a year since I last posted here. Things have been crazy the last couple years, but I should be restarting soon.

About 3 months ago, I ran across 23 cardinals at a local pet store. The cardinals had been at the shop for over a month, meaning that any initial die off will have already happened. So, I jumped on the opportunity and bought them all! These will serve as fresh young breeding stock for the restart of this project. They're a good size now and I'll be powerfeeding them to get them into breeding condition. Stay tuned!

-Jeremiah


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## eon17 (Aug 30, 2007)

Yay! I just read all of the posts in this thread and cant wait for more posts! can we see a pic of little buddy? he will be an adult now!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

eon17 said:


> Yay! I just read all of the posts in this thread and cant wait for more posts! can we see a pic of little buddy? he will be an adult now!



Here he is! Sorry, it's a bit blurry...


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

How did you make your green water and how do you keep it? I am interested for the same reasons, feeding fry with it, and also to feed my daphnia cultures. 
Also, are the black line and cardinal tetras all in a 15gl with only a few inches of water? What is the purpose to this, and how do they fare? I am curious as to what this does. I know some fish will spawn in a reduced water level, but whats with the tetras? Just wondering. Awesome journal by the way.


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## fishscale (May 29, 2007)

My diamond tetras have bred 3 times on their own. I find that if I neglect the tank and it gets real dirty, they start getting frisky. Or, it might be the low water level. I have 5 surviving juvies from 2 different spawns. I'd be very interested in breeding cardinals. I wonder how it happens in the wild?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

SearunSimpson said:


> How did you make your green water and how do you keep it? I am interested for the same reasons, feeding fry with it, and also to feed my daphnia cultures.
> Also, are the black line and cardinal tetras all in a 15gl with only a few inches of water? What is the purpose to this, and how do they fare? I am curious as to what this does. I know some fish will spawn in a reduced water level, but whats with the tetras? Just wondering. Awesome journal by the way.


To be honest the greenwater started on it's own in that particular tank, in which I have guppies and marisa snails. I just took advantage and overfed the tank to encourage it to grow. As far as starting a fresh culture, you can probably get some tank water, add a couple grass clippings or other vegetable matter from outdoors, and finally some nutrients. Some people use garden fertilizer for the nutrients. Then its just a matter of giving it lots of light. A sure fire way to get a culture started is purchase one already going through a place like http://www.livefoodcultures.com/



fishscale said:


> My diamond tetras have bred 3 times on their own. I find that if I neglect the tank and it gets real dirty, they start getting frisky. Or, it might be the low water level. I have 5 surviving juvies from 2 different spawns. I'd be very interested in breeding cardinals. I wonder how it happens in the wild?


As far as the low tank water goes, you guys bring up a good point about using water level as a spawning trigger. In fact I may consider doing that if I have a hard time getting the cardinals to spawn this time around. I seem to recall that cardinals can sometimes get trapped in pools of receding water, and spawn at the start of the rainy season, when water levels start to rise again. However, truth be told, I was in the middle of a water change when I took the picture, so it wasn't purposefully low.:icon_redf 

-Jeremiah


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## SearunSimpson (Jun 5, 2007)

I have read and noticed that low water levels can also trigger spawning. The first time I actually bred WCMM was by accident, and it was in a 5.5gl neglected tank. I had put them in there for "a while" while I was setting other stuff up and this and that and eventually just neglected them all together. When I finally went to move them back into the main tank there was fry all over the place. The water was pretty low (about half to three quarters full- thats not alot of water in a 5.5gl) and acidic and sorta getting stagnant. 
But low and behold, there was alot of fry.


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## dave3007 (Mar 10, 2007)

This is a great thread crshadow. Thankyou for posting your thoughts and wonderful pictures, its a great read. I wish you luck in your new attempt to spawn the Cardinals. 
Have you thought about trying to spawn Rummynose? I'd love to see your results/pics/writeup on this species.

Good luck mate. 

Dave


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## ovenmit331 (Mar 27, 2007)

Best. Thread. Ever. keep it up!


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

SearunSimpson said:


> I have read and noticed that low water levels can also trigger spawning. The first time I actually bred WCMM was by accident, and it was in a 5.5gl neglected tank. I had put them in there for "a while" while I was setting other stuff up and this and that and eventually just neglected them all together. When I finally went to move them back into the main tank there was fry all over the place. The water was pretty low (about half to three quarters full- thats not alot of water in a 5.5gl) and acidic and sorta getting stagnant.
> But low and behold, there was alot of fry.


Surprises like that are one of my favorite parts of the aquarium hobby. :icon_smil 




dave3007 said:


> This is a great thread crshadow. Thankyou for posting your thoughts and wonderful pictures, its a great read. I wish you luck in your new attempt to spawn the Cardinals.
> Have you thought about trying to spawn Rummynose? I'd love to see your results/pics/writeup on this species.
> 
> Good luck mate.
> ...


Thanks, it's been a pleasure to put all this together. I've thought about trying Rummynose tetras since, like the cardinal, they seem to have the reputation of being hard to get established in the tank. I may try them a little later on. The black neon tetras that were seen in the last pic are another I will be trying soon.




ovenmit331 said:


> Best. Thread. Ever. keep it up!


Thank you kindly! 

-Jeremiah


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## eon17 (Aug 30, 2007)

have you started to try to breed
?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Not yet, I'm waiting to see how the Amano breeding goes. In the meantime I will be fattening up the Cardinals for the attempt. I'm guessing in about a month I'll start.

-Jeremiah


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## Yzmxer99 (Aug 7, 2006)

Awesome, simply awesome thread. Keep it up.roud:


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## cyankal.i (Sep 13, 2008)

great thread!


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## cruiser99 (Dec 29, 2008)

bump


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## starrystarstarr (Sep 6, 2006)

great journal! im looking forward to more updates


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## ck123 (Mar 9, 2010)

im looking forward to more updates too.


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## problemman (Aug 19, 2005)

breeding amanos? cool


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Hi everyone, I'm still alive! Life has gotten in the way of this, and all my other aquarium adventures. I do still plan to continue with this, and the Amano project. Lately I've been fixing up a house that we purchased, and all the DIY stuff has taken up my free time.

Recently, I've been experimenting with Aquaponics, and may start a journal on that soon.

On a side note, speaking of Cardinals: Petsmart icon_eek is running a "PetPerks" special on Cardinals for a dollar a piece. Now's a good opportunity to stock up if anyone is interested. I believe the promotion is good until 3/22/2010. I may take advantage of this as my old breeders are, well, old... I don't know if this is locally only or the same across the country.

Thanks for the continued interest!

-Jeremiah


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## Voozle (Mar 22, 2009)

Recently stumbled across this thread while researching for a tetra breeding project of my own. Looking forward to seeing yours resumed. Excellent work so far, a wonderful and entertaining photo journal.


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Took advantage of the aforementioned Petsmart offer today. They let me get their entire shipment of Cardinals (48 Total) directly from the shipping bag, before they put them in their tanks. Which is cool, since I really don't want to bring home any potential nasties from their centralized filtration system, so was very glad to avert this step.

Now, lets just see if they survive. While I normally feel that Petsmart's 14 day return policy promotes bad fishkeeping, in the case of Cardinals, it's a blessing!

Don't have time to resume the project just yet, but at least I have new breeding stock.

-Jeremiah


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Good to see you're alive, I saw this thread bumped and thought... Threads dead... very old thread... let it rest in peace...

Then I saw your posts!

Can't wait to see updates coming sooner or later!

Welcome back!
-Andrew


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Hey Andrew! Glad to see you still around here on TPT. I'm sure a lot has changed since I've last been on! I really need to try and visit here more often, as I am likely out of touch, and outdated.


Regarding the Cardinals I bought from Petsmart, it's been a few days now, and no losses! It's a miracle! It might've helped that I got them straight out of their shipment, rather than from their tanks.

-Jeremiah


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

crshadow said:


> Hey Andrew! Glad to see you still around here on TPT. I'm sure a lot has changed since I've last been on! I really need to try and visit here more often, as I am likely out of touch, and outdated.
> 
> 
> Regarding the Cardinals I bought from Petsmart, it's been a few days now, and no losses! It's a miracle! It might've helped that I got them straight out of their shipment, rather than from their tanks.
> ...


Ahh light years ahead with the whole exponential curve of knowledge crap that is supposedly going on :icon_conf In reality its mostly same old same old. A new vendor pushing 1/3 filled tanks with water something popular with viv keepers in the 90s or so. So same old, same old. Oh, but there were some interesting new plants and shrimp and fish imported since you've been super active probably...

It is a miracle you saved them from being baptized in PetSmart tanks! 

-Andrew


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

May as well say good to see your still doing well. I don't get on the forum much these days either. I too have had some of the Petsmart cards and only lost a couple. I did take them up on their return offer for the ones that weren't floor bacon.

Cheers


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## sliver (Dec 31, 2009)

Bump.

This is an awesome journal. I'm planning to start a neon tetra breeding program, and found out this very helpful thread. Hope to hear more updates.


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## ck123 (Mar 9, 2010)

Bump. again


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## arthuryeo (May 13, 2010)

how do you know if the female is ready to give birth?


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## tyronegenade (Dec 7, 2010)

Hi,

I've read this thread with great interest as I'm currently try to spawn cardinals. And spawn them I have but am yet to see a single fry.

I only got them to spawn once they were in a group. Setting them up as pairs or trios (2m:1f or 1m:2f) was hopeless. I have them in a large net breeding trap drapped in a 6 gallon tank. I have a large clump of Anubias in the net and Java fern over peat scattered over the bottom of the tank under the net. Every few days I see the Java moss littered with little white orbs: dead eggs.

Derek McInerny's "All about tropical fish" (1964) mentioned that egg death was linked with water hardness, with zero eggs surviving over 12 ppm. Well, when I do a water change I use distilled water and the hardness is by now very much below 12 ppm but still no fry... Jeremiah, what was your water hardness?

Anyone got any other ideas?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

Hi, it's been quite a long time since I've been here, and quite a while since I bred the Cardinals. I'm still around, but everything's a bit foggy as far as exact details when I bred the Cardinals, but I'll try my best to give you some pointers.

I poked back through the thread and found the post quoted below which were the water parameters for my first successful Cardinal egg hatch. The TDS was 85ppm, GH 25ppm, KH 45ppm. All these are well above 12ppm. If I recall correctly, for the Cardinals I got successful hatchings even into the 100+ppm range, but not much higher than that. And glowlights I was able to get viable eggs even at 500+ppm. I have a gut feeling that the hardness affects not the eggs, but rather the ability of the sperm to fertilize the eggs, but I have no way of confirming that.

So that being said, I'm sure your water is soft enough, it's gotta be something else. A few possibilities off the top of my head.

- Fish are too old.
- Inexperienced Males
- pH?
- Temperature (Mine was room Temp around 70 -75 F)
- Lack of Tannin in the water (Anti-bacterial properties)
- Old eggs that the females have been carrying around for a while. (Perhaps they just need to spawn a few times to flush them out.)
- Too much circulation. (Sperm again)
- You could also try removing the eggs and treating them with methylene blue.

If you poke around in the thread you might find more specific data that I had recorded that may help. I had meant to do a lot more specific experiments to fine tune the parameters, but life got in the way and I haven't had a chance to revisit the project since.

Hope this helps. - Jeremiah



crshadow said:


> 6/4/2006:
> 
> The next morning, I was happy to find that the Cardinal egg had hatched! I also checked the Cardinal tank to see if there was a new spawn. Although there were no new eggs, I noticed something dart across the substrate. I sucked it up with a medicine dropper and found that it was another Cardinal fry! I managed to find 3 newly hatched Cardinal fry in the tank, which I removed and placed into yet another seperate vial. That makes a total of 4 Cardinal fry, with the slight possibility of more hiding in the tank with the parents. Not the most spectacular results, but I'm happy to have had some success. From here on, it will hopefully be more practice and fine tuning with subsequent spawns.
> 
> ...


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## agoins (Nov 2, 2009)

Any suggestions why my lemon's have stopped breeding? I have when from 13 to 21+ the only thing I have changed in the tank is adding a yoyo loach. Think he could be getting to the eggs?


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

agoins said:


> Any suggestions why my lemon's have stopped breeding? I have when from 13 to 21+ the only thing I have changed in the tank is adding a yoyo loach. Think he could be getting to the eggs?


You can probably bet on it.


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## dinosaurodon (Jun 1, 2011)

Helllloooooooo, are you still doing this project, it's been seven months. I wanted to ask how you measure the Ph, Kh, Gh, etc. Oh and BTW what are the best water parameters for breeding glowlight tetras, I wanna try breeding them.


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## Naliel (May 31, 2012)

Just read the whole thread! Thanks for all the details and specially the pictures!! I would like to try to breed neos or cardinals in the near future and the info you provided is very helpful. I know it's been almost a year since the last post but I couldnt help to subscribe to the site just to say thanks for your time.


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## fishboy199413 (Jan 20, 2010)

This is a great thread and an inspiration. Is everything well and are you still planning to breed them again?


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## crshadow (Sep 4, 2003)

fishboy199413 said:


> This is a great thread and an inspiration. Is everything well and are you still planning to breed them again?


It is hard to believe that it has been 11 years since I joined this wonderful forum! This project among my other unfinished random projects have been put away for some time now, but never forgotten. Since I was last active on this thread and on this forum I've had two children and other important changes in the game of life that had prevented me from having the free time necessary to devote to my hobbies. 

That being said, the chaos has started to subside, and as such it may be time to resurrect this project in some fashion. Much time has passed and I have a lot to catch up on! 

To answer the original question, If people are still interested I'd be happy to continue this project! Times have also changed and we are now in the age of video, and so if I continue this, the media format and presentation of content will be updated to coincide. That means hopefully lots of video updates! Stay tuned!

-Jeremiah


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## Andrew. (Dec 27, 2013)

Thank you for taking the time to make such an in depth guide for breeding Cardinals, You inspired me to breed them I had a question about how much RO water you use in your breeding tank, What is the proportion of your tap water to your RO water in your breeding tank and your Jars?


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## nickdu (Jul 31, 2011)

I'd say it all depends. Your goal is to get pH between 6.5 and 7.0. Test tap and ro. And then guess the proportions. Adding slightly cooler water helps. (Just my opinion) 

Sent via mobile TapaTalk


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## 180g (May 20, 2014)

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMP. uh


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

That is incredibly unnecessary 180g, better to request an update or comment on the tank, or even add a question instead of a spam "bump"...


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

let's get this going again!


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