# Sump Design Advice



## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Since I don't have/use them a sump that is I likely don't have much credibility in this, but you are making it too tall. Not allowing for the run off from the overflow by allowing more space at the top which is empty and can absorb ANY water which will flow in if the pump stops, and not be returned to the tank. Empty/dead space at the top of your sump.
I don't know what exactly would be considered a safe amount, but 2" is how tall your baffle is and the water needs to go over it so it looks like you are only allowing an inch of dead space. 2" from the top that is.
I also believe that ALL of your sponges should be in front of the bio-media.
Some(most) people want the particles removed for the appearance of the water but keeping it from clogging the bio-media
is the main reason for sponges unless you use them also as a bio-media in which case that bio-media sponge should be last
and the only one you don't clean.


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

Yeah, I'm not sure what the design of the guys reef sump set up was...never seen a reef sump like that. Like Raymond said you don't want the baffles so tall. If the Sump is 11" high and your baffles are that tall you're more than likely going to flood the sump each time you turn the return pump off because of the water that'll still come down the drains. I've designed mine with the baffles 6" high. jAlso with your filter media in that position it'll clog a lot quicker and reduce water flow. I've designed a shelf using egg crate that'll be about 4" wide allowing more surface area. Like Raymond said you should have all filter media before the bio balls. That'll help keep them cleaner. I would do away with the bubbler. The only thing I can see that doing is off gassing your co2. I like the idea of option two for the space for acclimating, etc. If you were using it to aerate the water that's going to be accomplished with water flowing over the baffles.

Here's a link to my build so you can see my sump layout.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=843513&highlight=

Just my 2 cents...


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Ok I think I have a misunderstanding of how the tank and sump interact. If I turn off the return pump water will continue to flow down until it is below the overflow at which point it will stop flowing correct? So shouldn't I just only fill the tank to the point where the sump is full but not overflowing at that point? I guess I don't understand why I would fill the tank to the point which I can get a flood?


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## Ed_ (Mar 26, 2015)

aja31 said:


> Ok I think I have a misunderstanding of how the tank and sump interact. If I turn off the return pump water will continue to flow down until it is below the overflow at which point it will stop flowing correct? So shouldn't I just only fill the tank to the point where the sump is full but not overflowing at that point? I guess I don't understand why I would fill the tank to the point which I can get a flood?


 The tank level should remain constant. The sump level will vary with evaporation. When your tank is up and running, if you shut the power off, the water level in the main tank will go down as you described above, and there may be some water siphoned off from your return line in your tank. To prevent this you can drill a 1/8" hole in your return line just below the water line that will break the siphon.


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## Okedokey (Sep 2, 2014)

subscribed


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Ed_ said:


> The tank level should remain constant. The sump level will vary with evaporation. When your tank is up and running, if you shut the power off, the water level in the main tank will go down as you described above, and there may be some water siphoned off from your return line in your tank. To prevent this you can drill a 1/8" hole in your return line just below the water line that will break the siphon.


Oh that is actually something I didn't consider, good call. I will have to make a note of that. 

Would you also recommend lowering the baffles or is my reasoning correct in that if I only add enough water to have the sump full and not overflowing I should be ok assuming I add in siphon breaks?

The reverse situation I know I have covered, there is an extra 4.5in of glass behind the hood such that if the overflow is clogged the entire contents of the sump can dump into the tank without it flooding.


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## Clear Water (Sep 20, 2014)

If your coarse sponge clods up there good chance it will run over the side of your filter. I would think 8" tall would be plenty. You also don't need a space for the heater it can lay in the bottom of the sump. I like design number 2. I would think you could get by with just the polishing sponge and wouldn't need two spaces for a coarse and fine. I like that you have left plenty room for the pump as time goes on you add another or a bigger pump without any problems.


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

You can also position your return nozzles near the surface so that as soon as the water level drops just a fraction it'll suck air in and break the siphon. I've done both ways and just prefer this over drilling the holes.

Bump: You can search Reef2Reef for overflow / sump set ups and there's lots of videos on youtube.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Ok I have revised my design using the considerations everyone has provided. I moved all the filtration to before the bio chamber, reduced the height of the baffles, and increased the size of the coarse filtration compartment to help reduce clogging. I also removed the bubbler so that I don't outgas as much CO2.



I also left an empty compartment in order to introduce chemical filtration if needed. 

I'm wondering if I have too much filtration... is that even possible? Could I combine the coarse and medium filtration so that the top is coarse and the bottom half is medium? Would that be better, or would it not matter either way?


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

I don't think it would matter either way. Filstar XP canisters stack them on top of each other. you could probably just do the medium and fine.


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

If the dividers are to the top of the sump and any sponge clogs you will have a flood. Drop the height of all the dividers to an inch or so below the top of the sump. Having the sponges oriented vertically minimizes contact area with the dirty water. I'd have the sponges horizontally oriented. Get rid of the dividers between them and lay them down flat on top of the egg crate.

The height of the last divider before the return will keep the area between the drain and that divider at a uniform water depth and evaporation will take place in the pump area. Make the pump area as large as possible so you don't get nagged by a pump sucking air between water changes. I'd take out the heater dividers and lay the heater down in the pump area.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

I have a sump on my planted tank and it has taken some getting used to. Mine is more simple than yours in design, though larger in overall volume. 

I agree with earlier posters in dropping the baffles to allow for when you switch off the return pump as water can flow over the top otherwise.

Have the mechanical filtration horizontally so more surface area is in exposed to water as it flows through. In your design I think you want water to flow under the first baffle and over the next and not the other way round, though again this is if you continue with the vertical filter sponges - I have three layers one on top of the other that simply sit on the biological media.

I then have a refugium where I grow plants that I light when the lights in the main tank are out to avoid pH fluctuations.

I also have a second pump that goes through a uv that pumps back into the first sump chamber to keep water flowing around the filter if my main return pump fails.

What kind of co2 reactor are you going to go with? I hadn't thought about having mine inline so it goes directly into the tank and I use a simple ceramic diffuser for dispersal.

I also had to change the return piping to get a more gentle flow back into the tank as the original design made the flow so heavy my angels avoided half the aquarium.

My tank also has two feeds into the sump that apparently reduce noise, though it took a lot of fiddling to get it to near silent - so silent that the whir from my LEDs as they ramp up and down is now the most audible sound from the whole setup.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Ok after additional research and considering I have come up with design 4. I think I am homing in on a final design here. 

I increased the size of the filtration area so I can lay the filters horizontally and stack them, which should give me a much greater effective surface area for filtration. I removed the heater compartment, I can just lay those in the pump compartment. The acclimation area is isolated off to keep any fish in there from getting accidentally sucked away in the pump. 

I also lowered the baffles down from the top an inch in order to prevent flooding in the case of a filter clog.



Additional feedback is always welcome.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

What's the point of the first baffle? Either remove it and have the intake flow directly onto the media or raise it so water flows under the first baffle and then through the sponges. Otherwise that area below the intake and before the first baffle is just dead water?


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

The second from last baffle is kinda pointless too I think. Actually both of the baffles in the area marked acclimation don't seem to do much to be honest.

Also I'm sure you don't really intend for this to be a hospital or quarantine area?


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

Pnorman said:


> What's the point of the first baffle? Either remove it and have the intake flow directly onto the media or raise it so water flows under the first baffle and then through the sponges. Otherwise that area below the intake and before the first baffle is just dead water?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


With the flow from the drain it'll keep that water stirred up. If you put the drain directly over the filter media there'll be a possibility of more noise. Most sumps are design the way he has it...mine will be that way too.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Pnorman said:


> I have a sump on my planted tank and it has taken some getting used to. Mine is more simple than yours in design, though larger in overall volume.
> 
> I agree with earlier posters in dropping the baffles to allow for when you switch off the return pump as water can flow over the top otherwise.
> 
> ...


Would you recommend the first baffle be positioned that way with the filters horizontal? 

I'm probably going to use a Cerges reactor for the CO2, and seal parts of the sump to reduce outgassing. My tank is already drilled for a single intake, but it is also drilled for 2 returns, so I will have to play around with it and see the best configuration. 

Here is a modified design 4 with the first baffle reversed:



Not sure which one would work better.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

Hmmm. Mine is more straight forward, with the intake flowing directly on to the mechanical media and the level of the first baffle so it remains submersed, and is virtually silent. You'd want to get the intake deep into the sump to keep water moving I would have thought?


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

I would revert back to the previous version.

Since you have 1 return and 2 drains look at doing the herbie overflow. Once you get it dialed in it's totally silent. that's what i did on my 75g tank. I'm going to try that on my new tank and see how it works.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

aja31 said:


> Would you recommend the first baffle be positioned that way with the filters horizontal?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That looks more like mine without the penultimate baffle, which I don't understand. It seems superfluous to me.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

Where are you going to put heaters by the way? I remember looking at the return on my sump and thinking it was too big, but once I put in a couple of heaters and a few smaller pumps plus a float valve it was a really tight squeeze.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Pnorman said:


> Where are you going to put heaters by the way? I remember looking at the return on my sump and thinking it was too big, but once I put in a couple of heaters and a few smaller pumps plus a float valve it was a really tight squeeze.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The heaters i'll put in the pump area. The tank is 15" wide, so there should be a good amount of room in there.

The final set of baffles is to separate the pump area from the hospital area. It will be for extra plants/shrimp/fish. Fish that have finished quarantine can be acclimated there first before being added to the display tank which can greatly reduce stress. It also gives me a place to grow out new plants. By having the baffles on both sides on the bottom it keeps the flow in that area low for sick fish, and keep them from being swept into the pump area.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

aja31 said:


> The heaters i'll put in the pump area. The tank is 15" wide, so there should be a good amount of room in there.
> 
> 
> 
> The final set of baffles is to separate the pump area from the hospital area. It will be for extra plants/shrimp/fish. Fish that have finished quarantine can be acclimated there first before being added to the display tank which can greatly reduce stress. It also gives me a place to grow out new plants. By having the baffles on both sides on the bottom it keeps the flow in that area low for sick fish, and keep them from being swept into the pump area.



Here's some (bad) pictures of mine. The first shows how my return area is separated from the refugium with only 1 baffle








The second shows how the intake is separated from the refugium with two baffles.









Sorry but they're not great images as the lights are on over the sump at the moment but should give you an idea of what I've got as a setup.


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## Pnorman (Jan 19, 2013)

Any thoughts on how to avoid fish swimming into the return section? I used weir combs but it creates turbulence and therefore noise in the return [emoji20] your idea might work if you can somehow prevent fish swimming under the penultimate baffle...


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## Coralbandit (Feb 25, 2013)

I've done sumps since the 1980s.
Overflows are overated and trouble /burden not properly considered.
Fill tank/fill sump through tank overflow.
Turn on pump and let run 2-3 minutes.
Then apply tape,draw line where the water is now(while running) on the sump.
This is the MAX fill line while running and one of the most important things to know.This needs to be marked in the pump chamber of sump as this is where ALL level change/evap are seen.
You may see why overflows are trouble as the build up to flow may leave very little water in pump chamber.
NEXT, besides all other good advice;
Make pump area as big as humanly possible as it is the time/amount of evap you will be aloud before having issues(I like a week in all my sumps even my 180g's) before I have to top off.Smaller chamber will mean more frequent(possibly daily on uncovered tank) top offs.
I have as few overflows as possible in my sumps or add 29g tanks in series to gain more water if necessary.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Pnorman said:


> Any thoughts on how to avoid fish swimming into the return section? I used weir combs but it creates turbulence and therefore noise in the return [emoji20] your idea might work if you can somehow prevent fish swimming under the penultimate baffle...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I was thinking of using a nylon mesh over an eggcrate to keep them in their compartment. Not sure how well it will work, but I figured i'd give it a try.


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## Ed_ (Mar 26, 2015)

Here's my advice and it's what I chose when left to decide how to convert my reef setup with sump to a freshwater planted tank. Remove all baffles/dividers. Stick your heater, return pump, circulation pump, and a canister filter in the sump and be done with it.
By having an open sump it's a lot easier to keep clean and maintain. There are no sections to accumulate detritus and the circulation pump keeps it in suspension so that it can be filtered out through the canister. The canister adds flow to the main tank along with the return so you'll have good flow in there without needing additional powerheads. If your canister filter ever leaks, it's all contained. Your water changes can done in the sump and you can mix your dechlorinator in there and have the temp just right before returning it to the main tank. I also add make-up water via an automatic water top-off (old school 6.4gal Nurce system) in the sump. Time will tell but I think this will work for me.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Can anyone tell me how much space they left for the silicone? The tank is exactly 15" wide inner dimensions. is 1/8" enough space on each side about right?


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Do not make this more complicated than it needs to be. This is for a freshwater planted tank, not a reef. Keep it simple stupid.

There is absolutely no reason for baffles in a freshwater sump. The only reason they have any value what so ever is to keep shrimp, fry or fish in one area of the sump. 

The only reason reefers need baffles in their sumps is to keep the water at a certain level for the protein skimmer and to prevent the micro bubbles from the skimmer entering the main tank. Our freshwater tanks do not requiring skimming. So no baffles are needed and the only water level you need to worry about is the amount of water that backfills into the sump during a power outage. 

Placing excess mechanical filtration media and bio media will only cause you more maintenance and water flow problems. All you need is a filter sock, that is it.

While I use "bio" media to some degree in my tanks. I believe their benefits are greatly exaggerated. But that is for another discussion. I don't believe you need it though, especially in a freshwater planted tank.

Here is a photo of my sump from a year ago. The design has not changed.

The only thing I have in their is a piece of pvc to hold my filter sock in place. I also have a piece of 2in poret foam that separates the main area from the return pump. My shrimp graze all over it.

Keep in mind, the sump is connected to your main tank so you do not want to use your sump as a hospital or treatment area for sick fish because the water is circulated into your main tank.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

Well after looking around some more online and reading other peoples designs, i've simplified my design down and improved its reliability I think. I removed some of teh baffles to give me a better isolation section, where I can grow snails/shrimp/fry/plants. I can also use it in a reverse photoperiod to maintain more consistent O2 levels. Filtration is still the same, but the return area is now much larger to give me a more consistent water level so I don't have to add water every few days.


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

Great job. I think that'll work well.


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## ForensicFish (May 19, 2013)

Good Luck. I would extend your intake tube farther down since your first baffle is an overflow to your filter media.


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## jimbo662 (Aug 4, 2013)

ForensicFish said:


> Good Luck. I would extend your intake tube farther down since your first baffle is an overflow to your filter media.


+1...I always make sure the drain line extends 1-2" below the normal running level of the water. This helps insure the system can purge all of the bubbles easily otherwise you may hear gurgling noises.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

jimbo662 said:


> +1...I always make sure the drain line extends 1-2" below the normal running level of the water. This helps insure the system can purge all of the bubbles easily otherwise you may hear gurgling noises.


Yes I plan on doing a reverse durso on the drain, I just didn't take the time to draw it out. This will ensure that the sump is quiet, and reduce the turbulence and outgassing that occurs.


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## bobfig (Aug 30, 2014)

heres one i like to try some time. you use a filter sock for the big stuff and a fine sponge and puragen on the rack later. based on a design i saw on youtube.








https://youtu.be/LUTqxtPzK1g?list=LLk_9OjyAnyAkbrEB0zrrd7Q


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