# Starving Algae Spores



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Has anyone ever tested ammonia suppression, in a high-tech planted tank, to reduce/eliminate algae? 

As we know, ammonia/ammonium, even in trivial amounts, feeds algae spores. There is always some ammonia being produced by the well-known sources and our nitrifying bacteria and plants can’t instantly eliminate it. So, what would happen with algae development if ammonia is eliminated more rapidly than the filters and plants can do it?

I’m thinking of adding a zeolite product to my filter, and change it weekly, to see if it would make a difference in algae growth. Before I do, I’d like to collect opinions on this. I would expect that my nitrifying bacteria colony would shrink, but stabilize at much lower levels as a result.

My plants are healthy – growing well and leaves have no algae on them. The remainder of the tank has very little algae but, if I can suppress even further without harming the balance, why not?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Well ... apparently no one has ever tried this (based upon no responses). So, does anyone have an opinion about whether this might work to reduce the development of algae?


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

I think your idea is flawed. If you don't have enough nutrients for algae your plants are definitely not going to survive. You should concentrate on balance of light, nutrients, filtration, flow etc. to make further gains. Go ahead and give it a try but I don't think it will end well.

Dan


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## puopg (Sep 16, 2012)

Pretty sure if you add some ferts to tapwater and leave it out in the sun in a glass you'll start getting algae, so imo the theory that presence of ammonia is the root cause of algae is incorrect. 

Im curious if you would experience something though so you could give it a shot. Especially if your plants are fine seems like you know what is going on.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

NH3/NH4(ammonia/ammonium), NO2(nitrite) and NO3(nitrate) all used by plants and algae as nutrients (as far as I remember preferred in that order) . If you put enough Zeolite in your filter (not clue how much it would be to completely eliminate your bioload) you will have nothing left for the plants to feed on. To add it won't remove them any faster than your biological filter (if colonized fully for your bio load) will convert them to nitrates. Even if you could just target ammonia instantly removing it you would then halt any production of nitrites and then nitrates because of no food for the bacteria. Essentially if you going to do this you may as well start a tank without plants because the result will be plant death. With that said I don't think you could put enough in to completely eliminate them to begin with.

Dan

Bump:


puopg said:


> Pretty sure if you add some ferts to tapwater and leave it out in the sun in a glass you'll start getting algae, so imo the theory that presence of ammonia is the root cause of algae is incorrect.
> 
> Im curious if you would experience something though so you could give it a shot. Especially if your plants are fine seems like you know what is going on.


Tap water usually contains ammonia and nitrates.

Dan


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

It is literally impossible to run a tank lean enough to "starve" algae.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Thanks for all the opinions. I don’t want to starve the algae (and kill the plants); I want to starve the algae SPORES. Seems that no experience exists in actually trying it. I think I will in the near future, but would like to hear compelling reasons not to do so. I guess I’ll have to destabilize my tank (light or CO2) to make sure I can create an algae outbreak, at will, in order to test it. I was just hoping that someone may have already tested this.

I want to re-focus on the question and away from my tank. I probably should have mentioned that I add EI dosing and pressurized CO2, so plant nutrients are plentiful and I have two GroBeam 600's on a 29 gallon tank (25-26 gals of water) along with three Hydor Koralia pumps. Plant growth is great with rare appearances of easily eliminated algae. Plus, a Vectron UV sterilizer, I expect, is taking care of a lot of algae spores.

My interest is in just adding another barrier to algae development. I’m not concerned about algae once it appears and I know NPK will support it with unbalanced light, CO2 and ferts. However, as I understand things, the spores cannot turn into algae without NH3/NH4. Take that away and I would expect the spores to remain dormant (they’ll always be dropping into my tank). I don’t imagine that I can completely eliminate ammonia, but a large reduction just might prevent the spores from developing into algae on a straight-line curve with the reduction in ammonia.

The only purpose of nitrifying bacteria is to eliminate ammonia, right (and add NO3, if you don’t through ferts)? Aquarium zeolite is cheap, so if I add it regularly (change every 3-4 weeks) and it adsorbs ammonia instantly (unlike the bio-filter), why would I care about a bio-filter? I keep GH in the 5-6 degree area, so the zeolite shouldn’t spend much time favoring Ca and Mg over the NH3/NH4.

The benefit I see to this would be those times when destabilization does occur, for so many possible reasons (50% weekly water changes, “oops forgot to add the ferts” or vacation, fooling around with light and CO2, etc.).


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Algae will use ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. It is impossible to starve algae in anything other than pure R/O water in which nothing will grow. You can however control it through balance. I think your thinking algae will only grow using ammonia which is not correct.

Dan


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I'm guilty of using the word 'starve' when it comes to algae. In the context I use it in, it simply means making sure plants are first to make use of nitrates, fertz, ect... which will shrink the food sources for algae growth. 

I don't think it is possible to deal with this issue on a spore level though. Even the cleanest, algae-free tanks have some spores that live in the substrate. They are not a problem unless the tank gets out of balance for some reason. 

Zeolite isn't all that it is cracked up to be anyway. I tried it last year when I was pulling out my hair with tank issues as at the time I didn't know what the problem was and the Zeolite didn't do much of anything. A alternative to this idea would be to stuff a tank full of plants and see if algae grows.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

> It is impossible to starve algae in anything other than pure R/O water in which nothing will grow.


Again ...I'm not talking about algae. Spores, spores, spores are the issue. As I understand it, spores will not be kick-started into algae unless one thing happens: they have ammonia to eat.



> Zeolite isn't all that it is cracked up to be anyway. I tried it last year when I was pulling out my hair with tank issues as at the time I didn't know what the problem was and the Zeolite didn't do much of anything.


If you don't know what the problem was, how can you say that zeolite isn't all it's cracked up to be, unless you knew that the problem was ammonia? Yes: as I mentioned, I know that there will always be algae spores in my tank. This is about taking the required ammonia away from the spores so they can't grow up to be big boy algae.

I don't mean to be pushing back, but the replies aren't relevant to the issue of spores ONLY, zeolite and ammonia.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Again ...I'm not talking about algae. Spores, spores, spores are the issue. As I understand it, spores will not be kick-started into algae unless one thing happens: they have ammonia to eat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again... spores, spores, spores will use ammonia, nitrite or nitrate its all sources of nitrogen NH3, NH4, NO2, No3... do you see the correlation? all have nitrogen... I don't know how else to say it I will just wish you luck and lets us know if you find anything.

Dan


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

> Again... spores, spores, spores will use ammonia, nitrite or nitrate its all sources of nitrogen NH3, NH4, NO2, No3... do you see the correlation? all have nitrogen... I don't know how else to say it I will just wish you luck and lets us know if you find anything.


NO. Everything I read states, very clearly, that spores cannot use nitrite or nitrates. They must have ammonia. That's what is driving this whole question and why I don't care about nitrites and nitrates. If you can show me something that contradicts this, I'd love to see it.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Deanna said:


> NO. Everything I read states, very clearly, that spores cannot use nitrite or nitrates. They must have ammonia. That's what is driving this whole question and why I don't care about nitrites and nitrates. If you can show me something that contradicts this, I'd love to see it.


I culture phytoplankton using R/O and my EI no ammonia just kno3 and KH2P04. As does the guy I bought it from. OK not going to debate... good luck.

Dan


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Deanna said:


> If you don't know what the problem was, how can you say that zeolite isn't all it's cracked up to be, unless you knew that the problem was ammonia? Yes: as I mentioned, I know that there will always be algae spores in my tank. This is about taking the required ammonia away from the spores so they can't grow up to be big boy algae.
> 
> I don't mean to be pushing back, but the replies aren't relevant to the issue of spores ONLY, zeolite and ammonia.


It is called process of elimination. My well water is full of ammonia. I tried using Zeolite to correct this problem before going to RO water. The Zeolite in my case had to be changed every couple of days and even then, it did not eliminate it. You are free to spend your money as you choose, but that does not change my opinion about the product itself.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Actually I will debate I'm bored and could probably learn a thing or 2 from it anyhow. Show me your info stating they don't use any source of nitrogen and will only use ammonia? does this include ammonium too?


Added: There are many different types of aquatic algae and many do not use spores for reproduction.

Dan


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Ammonia is needed for spore germination.. not needed for growth or more correctly one form of Nitrogen but unnecessary .
At least that is the current "theory"..

Once germinated, well the whole metric changes.. 
Nitrogen is rarely 'limited" in a fish stocked planted tank. 
It would be virtually impossible for plants to "out-compete" algae when soo much food is available and algae is fairly "mobile" compared to plants (floating spores and "bits")..
but by cutting down germination rates it gives you a fighting chance.
Nitrate (NO3) and phosphate (PO4) don?t cause algae. Ammonia does!! - Aquarium-fertilizer.com



> Ammonia comes from old, unsightly leaves, waste of fish and from feed. We have to keep level of ammonia as low as it’s possible. How? We should instal big filters, where is ammonia transfered to nitrate (NO3). Algae spores aren’t able to recieve nitrate, so doesn’t matter if nitrate (NO3) levels are high. We could also change water regularly to cut ammonia levels down. But what is the most important? We have to keep plants in a good shape, because when plants are weak -> system is weak -> ammonia is present and algae spores become an algae. So if you don’t want to have an algae bloom in your tank, you have to care about your plants and you have to keep aquarium clean.
> 
> How we said before, algae spores want ammonia (NH4) and algae needs nitrate (NO3).


One does have to keep in mind not all algae responds the same way or has the same exact needs..

Read post #4 for a competing viewpoint:
http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/general-plant-topics/8861-nh4-spike-suppression


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Ammonia is needed for spore germination.. not needed for growth or more correctly one form of Nitrogen but unnecessary .
> At least that is the current "theory"..
> 
> Once germinated, well the whole metric changes..
> ...


I'm trying to find any scientific data to support that, I did see that exact same article but as with many things in the aquarium world there are claims and no proof. What is it that makes no2 or no3 different than nh3 or nh4...obviously its the oxygen and hydrogen but how would that play a factor? I feel that article is suspect just by the fact its claiming algae in general. This cannot be true as we all know some types of algae like cyanobacteria do not produce spores and can only be introduced to your aquarium. I do realize its classed differently now and I can say I see a difference in algae between no ammonia and low ammonia

I mean the whole idea is flawed in my opinion because you will never be able to instantly remove ammonia but I do see where she is coming from on the idea and it makes sense in terms of balancing but not in terms of eliminating (just not feasible). 

I would rather question and learn than just accept and think I know.

Dan


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

> Actually I will debate I'm bored


Me, too, for the moment. 

If you know which types of algae develop without spores, in our aquariums, I would be interested in what those are.

One of the sources I relied heavily upon was AquariumFertilizer.com. Take a look at this link:

Actually I will debate I'm bored

A basic Google search found:

Aquarium Plant Fertilizer: Algae in Aquarium-Which one causes algae? Nitrate, Phosphate or Ammonia??

That's all I want to search for, right now. I think we would need a biological study, that can be supported, to go further. If you have any sources that contradict these, please put them in your reply. 

Perhaps I can try my own experiment and - maybe - it will, at least, tell me if I'm wrong. I'll put three open bowls of distilled water in strong sunlight. I'll add ammonia (Dr. Tims aquatic ammonia stuff - which works well in fishless cycling) to one bowl, add KNO3 to another bowl and add nothing to the third bowl and see what develops. Hopefully, some algae spores will hit all three. If I don't get algae in, at least, the ammonia bowl, I'll know something is wrong with the experiment



> It is called process of elimination. My well water is full of ammonia. I tried using Zeolite to correct this problem before going to RO water. The Zeolite in my case had to be changed every couple of days and even then, it did not eliminate it. You are free to spend your money as you choose, but that does not change my opinion about the product itself.


You may be right. For massive amounts of ammonia, such as what you had, you would need large quantities of zeolite to adsorb it. My experience has been with typical aquarium generated levels of ammonia and I have found that zeolite removes it almost instantly.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

From the article posted on Aquarium-Fertilizer...



> You have to care about your plants, because they aren’t in a good shape right now. Old leaves produce ammonia (NH4) and algae spores become an algae. Fertilizing will cause that your plants will be in a good shape and they won’t produce more ammonia (NH4) so there wont’t be a new algae. Additionaly, healthy plants will eats ammonia so algae spores will suffer. On the other hand, algae which is present in aquarium right now will be grow because it is full-grown algae which eats nitrate (NO3). Yeah, that’s true, but you will remove it after a while and there won’t become another one, because you removed ammonia, so no other spores will become an algae. Pretty cool, isn’t it?


I'm still lost as to why or how ammonia acts like a trigger to algae spores. I have 3 different articles open and none of them explain that part of it. Then there is this written by Tom...


> Still, NH4 by itself as a lone inducer........has been falsified. I'm not going to argue the lost cause.
> It might induce under some conditions and is not good for shrimp and fish, and high levels can toast plants.


NH4 spike suppression - Aquarium Plants - Barr Report

LOL!


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Smooch said:


> From the article posted on Aquarium-Fertilizer...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yup I read that too and I'm just trying to find the studies.

Dan


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Me, too, for the moment.
> 
> If you know which types of algae develop without spores, in our aquariums, I would be interested in what those are.
> 
> ...


If you do try in Tom's article he states less than 1ppm should not be an issue for reference which should be every aquarium so you may want to try different levels.

@jeffkrol why do I get the feeling you have more information your not telling us? Was there a previous debate you were involved in and just watching from a far giggling to yourself while we search the web of lies trying to separate fact from fiction?

Dan


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I'm just tossing this thought on here. It isn't directed at anybody in particular. 

I have a bottle of plain ammonia in my cabinet that I use for fishless cycling. If I were to take some of it, place it in a bowl then place the same bowl in direct sunlight, would I end up with a bowl of algae? Why doesn't the bottle already have algae in it? I don't know if this is a fair question or not as there is no mention of whether algae spores need light to thrive like algae does. 

Perhaps I'm making this harder than what it is, but when I think of spores, such as mold spores, they don't become spores from nothing. There are environmental requirements for spores to develop. Dampness, darkness, rotting organic matter if it's outside, ect...


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

> I feel that article is suspect just by the fact its claiming algae in general. This cannot be true as we all know some types of algae like cyanobacteria do not produce spores and can only be introduced to your aquarium.


I'm not concerned about cyanobacteria. That's not algae. If I were to get it, I'd use an antibiotic - if desperate.



> Still, NH4 by itself as a lone inducer........has been falsified.


Yeah: I greatly admire Tom's guruship, but I can't find anything, anywhere, that supports that. If anyone does, please reply with it.



> If you do try in Tom's article he states less than 1ppm should not be an issue for reference which should be every aquarium so you may want to try different levels.


Good point. I'll try a couple/three ppm point spreads.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Found this on our forum too almost seems it could have been where this thought originated? idk

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/23-algae/726809-why-does-ammonium-ammonia-cause-algae.html

Dan


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

> Perhaps I'm making this harder than what it is, but when I think of spores, such as mold spores, they don't become spores from nothing. There are environmental requirements for spores to develop. Dampness, darkness, rotting organic matter if it's outside, ect...


Right ...and my readings, sources mentioned above, say that the environmental trigger is ammonia.

Bump:


> Found this on our forum too almost seems it could have been where this thought originated?


Evolutionary cues, I think, start all life processes. Is the cue, in this case, ammonia? There may be more cues, but I sure can't find anything that affirms that. I just wish that some extant data was posted somewhere.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Dman911 said:


> @*jeffkrol* why do I get the feeling you have more information your not telling us? Was there a previous debate you were involved in and just watching from a far giggling to yourself while we search the web of lies trying to separate fact from fiction?
> 
> Dan


No, it is just as big of a mystery to me as to others..
Trying to get a free copy of this ATM though.. May help..

Factors affecting spore germination in algae ?review | SpringerLink



> Still, NH4 by itself as a lone inducer........has been falsified.


couldn't find anything on that either.. but note the wording.. as a lone inducer....... really sort of disqualifies things AFAICT..
What ammonia and vitamin C?? LOL

Currently just accept the premise intuitively.
Sadly though. even if 100% correct it really doesn't help all that much.. Cure would be what is generally normal.. keep removing old biomaterial..
I recently had a real bad BBA outbreak in the 55 (still dealing w/ it a bit) and it was odd that most of the plants were a free on new growth, mostly free on low stem old growth but hit hard on "intermediate" tissue..such as older yet viable leaves..
Are they prone to "leak" ammonia?? Seems possible.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Right ...and my readings, sources mentioned above, say that the environmental trigger is ammonia.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Evolutionary cues, I think, start all life processes. Is the cue, in this case, ammonia? There may be more cues, but I sure can't find anything that affirms that. I just wish that some extant data was posted somewhere.


I am thinking there are a boat load of factors that can induce algae and not gonna lie it almost seems like there may be a type of plant hormone involved in contribution to chemical changes in some cases. I have been reading too much so I may be getting way out there and no data on that. I think I'm going to just accept balance and stability and try to shut my dam brain off. Yeah we will go with that.

Dan

Bump:


jeffkrol said:


> No, it is just as big of a mystery to me as to others..
> Trying to get a free copy of this ATM though.. May help..
> 
> Factors affecting spore germination in algae ?review | SpringerLink
> ...



LOL...

And thanks for the link. I just may have to pick that up, I don't do well with not understanding... well my brain doesn't and it tends to tell me your not sleeping until you understand it.

Dan


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

There are a ton of unknowns in plant physiology....


> This review surveys whatever little is known ...........


There is data on bacteria producing chemicals that directly inhibit algae..that route is kind of intresting though have yet to hear of anyone actually producing an algeacide..


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> There are a ton of unknowns in plant physiology....
> 
> 
> There is data on bacteria producing chemicals that directly inhibit algae..that route is kind of intresting though have yet to hear of anyone actually producing an algeacide..


This is definitely a hobby with no end in sight in terms of mastering or level of knowledge. I think that's why I find it so rewarding and fascinating with a splash of frustrating at times.

Dan


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I dont trust much of anything written on AF.com.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I think the Brits have my answer. Take a look at this link:



> https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads...nlimited-nutrients-helps-control-algae.36510/


When Tom was referring to evolutionary cues, he may have been summarizing studies he found that are similar to the many details found in this link. One of the overall takeaways, from this post, seems to be that spore germination is cued when an imbalance develops. Ammonia being, perhaps, an early indicator to spores that something is going wrong in the aquarium and it’s time to take advantage of it. One particularly interesting study (shown in this link) is that spore germination was inhibited by high concentrations of nitrate and phosphate. Maybe that’s one of the reasons we see less algae with the high EI doses. The poster that quoted that study has the paper available to members of the UK Aquatic Plant Society. If anyone here is a member, would you please obtain a copy and make it available to us? 

So, although I will conduct my experiments in my bowls (out of curiosity), it seems that a rise in ammonia (WARNING: system unbalanced!) is one of the signals to a spore to germinate, as well as being a food once they do. Maybe that still means that my thought of constantly ensuring zero or low ammonia levels will keep the spores from being alerted. As Tom mentioned, he found few outbreaks when ammonia is below a certain ppm.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

The only algae types worth seeking to eliminate completely through means like starvation, chemicals, are the various hair (filamentous) algaes. All others are impossible to completely eliminate, and exist to some degree in all tanks, even healthy ones.


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## Dman911 (Nov 24, 2016)

Deanna said:


> I think the Brits have my answer. Take a look at this link:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have always felt balance is the key but there is a lot more to it than just balance. I too believe there are triggers but I'm realizing its far more complex then I ever thought and I don't think there is any one variable responsible but several individual and co-dependent triggers that I will not understand in my lifetime and probably won't be answered in my lifetime either.

Dan


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## Kjani (Sep 5, 2018)

Just wanted to tell you all I found this topic utterly fascinating...all the replies - everything. I am a novice just getting started and cycling a new 54 gallon...until I can get fish. I can say I tried cycling without knowing much and just added API QuickStart and plants - no fish. I got milky water in 3 days and didn’t know what it was although one plant ‘melted’ completely ( the lobelia cardinalis) although other plants looked good.

Anyhoo I rinsed the white pre filter on my eheim pro 250 and got a lot of brownish gunk washing out. Put it back and the next day it looked clean again until about 3 days later and kinda milky again. Had to take tank down and bring it home. Reset up again fresh water etc. Did same thing with API quick start AND viola same thing happened AND (different water source and company). So I began the research and discovered I had a bacterial ‘bloom’ with nothing for it to feed off of. Now here at home on different water system, PLANTS LOOKED AWFUL leaves going clear ‘ melting’ or brown... Ordered Ammonia (Dr Tim’s). Did 50% water Change added ammonia per directions (helluva lotta drops). And I swear in 24 hours plants had ‘ perked up ‘. Ammonia at 4ppm - now I have no algae yet... but super scared to get it. Now 2-3 days later, ammonia about 3ppm and I have nitrites at 2ppm... will test this morning on 4th day and see if any nitrates. 

My main reason for writing this is I believe just adding the ammonia made a huge difference to the plants! Because in 2 days there were no measurable nitrites or nitrates but suddenly plants responded after 24 hours it’s weird. So I’m wondering with all of the discussion about removing all the ammonia is gonna be bad for the plants? I’m testing this theory with a separate bowl of water that had some water from the PREV water and some of new water added from home to it... and no filtering - high lighting with a strong plant light. Previously...the plants in there looked better than the plants in the aquarium. BOTH areas I also used FLOURISH tabs. I’m sure there was a much higher concentration in the small bowl tha the aquarium due to the measurable softer water in the bowl vs aquarium. 

I have just added a small amount of ammonia to the bowl itself with plants with non circulating water.

While not highly scientific and fraught with variables... I’m still interested to see if the ammonia perks up the bowl plants? Because the aquarium plants are THRIVING especially noticeable now...

If the ammonia helps the bowl ( and I will test for nitrites later). Then I’m wondering if the ammonia helps the plants? And if so, is ammonia needed for plants or simply I don’t know enough yet?

Dunno - but right now I have ZERO algae.


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