# Stem plants help



## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

I seem to have a tough time/mixed luck with stems. I brought some ludwigia x arcuata. I put 1 stem in a tank full of seachem flourite/flourish tabs. The lighting is low/mid level. It seems to be doing well in that tank.

I put stems of the same ludwigia in a tank full of eco complete and root tabs with mid/high level light. They both began to rot, and I lost one stem completely. I'm trying to salvage the other stem in the tank full of flourite. 


Not sure what i'm doing wrong here, as I also have some alternanthera in the tank of eco complete thats slowly making a comeback, and some rotala rotundifolia that seems to be getting used to that same tank.

I find better luck with rooted plants then stem plants.


I also dose seachems line up of liquid ferts, following their recommended weekly schedule. I will probably be switching to aquariup co-op's fertilizer though. I dose excel until I can eventually get a nice Co2 setup going. 

Any suggestions? My theory is the tank with flourite is smaller, and has been dosed with liquid ferts for a little longer. Maybe the CEC of that tank is a little better than the eco complete tank?


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## splattered (Jun 7, 2017)

They didn't take in my eco-complete either. Had some luck in my dirted high tech but once I trimmed them they got stripped by the fish, should've let them be - I got greedy. Sometimes I find just letting them float until they sprout hearty roots is the best way to go. Planting them right away doesn't give them time to acclimate it seems. I've heard this about jungle val as well.

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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

It just weird. I don't think eco-complete is all that its cracked up to be. Everything in my tank that has been planted with seachem flourite is extremely healthy, and that's a very low tech tank - especially with the lighting. The s repens that was replanted from regular sand has insane growth, I had to toss the excess. 

I even noticed the rotting ludwigia that i re-planted from the eco tank already start perking up in the flourite. I can see the beginnings of a new stem. 

I am weary of floating plants. Whenever I tried that they just didn't get root growth and died. I'm still surprised the alternanthera is actually doing well in my eco-tank.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Eco & flourite basically have a "0" CEC rating.
So rule that out.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Ok, disregarding CEC ratings, what could be causing my stems to not take off?

Granted I use root tabs, add liquid ferts, and dose excel?


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I don't think root tabs do much for stem plants. You need liquid ferts. You can just use sad too. If nothing else it will hold the stem plants in place better until roots form. But I believe they get most of their nutrients from the water column. 
As far as I am concerned Co2 is a must with stem plants. There may be some that do OK without it but your results will be a million times better with Co2. 
And finally I have had better luck with tissue cultured stem plants. A lot of stem plants are sold as emersed growth which can have a hard time transitioning back to submerged growth in an aquarium. tissue cultured plants have done much better making that transition for me.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Triport said:


> I don't think root tabs do much for stem plants. You need liquid ferts. You can just use sad too. If nothing else it will hold the stem plants in place better until roots form. But I believe they get most of their nutrients from the water column.
> As far as I am concerned Co2 is a must with stem plants. There may be some that do OK without it but your results will be a million times better with Co2.
> And finally I have had better luck with tissue cultured stem plants. A lot of stem plants are sold as emersed growth which can have a hard time transitioning back to submerged growth in an aquarium. tissue cultured plants have done much better making that transition for me.


Oh i bet, I can't wait to get my injected co2 going. I know stems usually feed by water column, but so far where i've planted my AR with root tabs they are starting to take off. The ones without the root tabs died...so I'm just following its success.... same story with my ludwigia.


I will try to get more cultured stem plants when I can. I've had good success with my s.repens tissue culture, and as you said the whole transitioning phase is probably easier from a tissue culture. You're probably right in the sense actual injected co2 is my limiting factor here.


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## splattered (Jun 7, 2017)

Triport said:


> I don't think root tabs do much for stem plants. You need liquid ferts. You can just use sad too. If nothing else it will hold the stem plants in place better until roots form. But I believe they get most of their nutrients from the water column.
> As far as I am concerned Co2 is a must with stem plants. There may be some that do OK without it but your results will be a million times better with Co2.
> And finally I have had better luck with tissue cultured stem plants. A lot of stem plants are sold as emersed growth which can have a hard time transitioning back to submerged growth in an aquarium. tissue cultured plants have done much better making that transition for me.


I have Ludwigia in a soft nutrient deprived tank and they are like bonsai tree miniatures of their co2 enriched brethren. Tiniest little leaves I've ever seen really

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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Just use "sad". LOL My typing/spelling skills are pretty grim these days. Getting old is a drag. Obviously I meant you can just use sand.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Triport said:


> Just use "sad". LOL My typing/spelling skills are pretty grim these days. Getting old is a drag. Obviously I meant you can just use sand.



Happens to the best of us lol. I probably should've only stuck with sand...have a ton of PFS still...and I figured eco complete/florurite did extra special things for the plants. I just have a sand patch for my corydoras now. 

Ill probably look into getting some weights for the stem plants until they root in. Hopefully my rotala and other stems take off soon.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Thought I'd update. Seems stems are slower to take off, but I'm getting healthy growth from my ludwigia and alternanthera and my blyxa japonica. Only stem that's still lagging is my rotala rotundifolia. Its not turning black or anything, but it just hasn't done much since I've put it in my tank. I thought it was an easy plant =/ 

I haven't dosed the appropriate amount of excel in my big tank. I'm trying to slowly ween my jungle val with excel and build tolerance. So far no melt and new growth.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I just read over this thread and I have to admit I have had varied experiences. I had a medium tech tank with eco-complete and had tremendous growth of rotala rotundifolia, root systems were shockingly large, you couldn't uproot a stem without creating a massive mess because of the giant root ball they created. 

As for alternanthera, I only have success using root tabs directly underneath them. They would grow okay with EI dosing and CO2, but as soon as I added root tabs they went perfectly red, and exploded with growth. Sounds like you are having success with substrate ferts so keep that up. 

Actually, the more I think about it, all my stem plants have shown responses to a good substrate fert (either matured flourite/eco or fert tabs).

I have nothing negative to say about plant growth when using eco-complete and fluorite IME. I just prefer the grain size/texture/color options of fluorite. 

I thought the CEC of eco/fluorite was their claim to fame? 

Do you happen to have a picture of the eco? or the pH of the tank? I just helped diagnose an issue on another forum and it turns out a Caribsea packaging facility was mixing eco-complete and black cichlid mix, so this user got a bag of black cichlid mix thinking it was eco-complete. Needless to say their pH was 8.5 and their plants looked like hell. 


It's weird that your other stems seem healthier than the rotala, should be backwards I would think. You will not be disappointing when you get CO2, you can basically watch stem plant put on height after a day of injecting CO2.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Yeah that's what i thought about both substrates, the CEC. It's interesting that you mention the eco-complete/cichlid mix up, I don't have a PH test kit, I need to just buy the master test kit -_- but I'd be blown away if that's the case. My water is pretty soft - usually around 6.6 - 6.8 from the last time I tested it when I was keeping discus. 

And those are my thoughts exactly - I would imagine having a tougher time with the other stems, but they are doing quite well. The rotala should be easier to care for - more so than the alternanthera and blyxa, so I am at a loss as to why they aren't taking off. There's barely any fish in the tank at the moment that would be disturbing them. 

So far everything in my florurite tank is thriving. Maybe I could see how some rotala reacts in that tank, but the light won't be as strong. 

Hopefully I can take advantage of GLA's sale, looking to get their entry level co2 kit.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

PlantsForHire said:


> Yeah that's what i thought about both substrates, the CEC. It's interesting that you mention the eco-complete/cichlid mix up, I don't have a PH test kit, I need to just buy the master test kit -_- but I'd be blown away if that's the case. My water is pretty soft - usually around 6.6 - 6.8 from the last time I tested it when I was keeping discus.
> 
> And those are my thoughts exactly - I would imagine having a tougher time with the other stems, but they are doing quite well. The rotala should be easier to care for - more so than the alternanthera and blyxa, so I am at a loss as to why they aren't taking off. There's barely any fish in the tank at the moment that would be disturbing them.
> 
> ...


My guess, from growing all the plants you mentioned, it that the rotala just doesn't have the root mass capable of keeping up to the other stems you have. AR and blyxa (haven't kept it in a while but I think it had decent roots on them) have good root systems, heck my AR mini has darn right impressive root systems, so I think they can make use of flourite/eco-complete. Star. repens is the same, large root systems. Are you doing into the water column at all? (sorry if you already posted that you do/don't). 

Yea, no joke about the mix up. It was today I was helping a member on a different forum and they called caribsea to ask what was up with there pH in the tank because eco isn't supposed to buffer and the service rep told them over the phone they had a mix up at one of there packaging facilities. LOL!!! i would think a company as big as they are would have been perfectly capable of recycling the mixed up products into something else instead of shipping them off to retailers.... maybe they caught it too late..... still a funny story (unless you are a victim of an unintended planted tank with an 8.5 pH). They rightfully shipped that person a few bags of proper eco, as they should have.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Yeah I do dose the tank with aquarium co-op fertilizer, its supposed to contain all the macros and micros. Its supposed to be the easier alternative to EI dosing. I also dose a little extra iron for the red plants. 


Honestly I highly doubt I would be successful with AR without root tabs, its mid-level care plant, so is blyxa I believe.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

PlantsForHire said:


> Yeah I do dose the tank with aquarium co-op fertilizer, its supposed to contain all the macros and micros. Its supposed to be the easier alternative to EI dosing. I also dose a little extra iron for the red plants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm really stumped as to why the rotala won't grow then, perhaps pick up another batch and see if they are better? I'm battling some stunted plants and it takes forever for them to get back into full swing again


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Other forums are saying it grows stunted without some source of carbon. Since I haven't been dosing excel to accommodate the tank its in, maybe thats why. I need a few more weeks until I can start gauging what the jungle val will handle when dosing excel. Plan is to go up by .5 ml every week until i'm at the appropriate amount - or the jungle val starts showing signs of melt.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Looking at your description of the plants growth it seems to me they are suffering from nutrient deficiency, more specifically nutrients in the water column. 

Both seachem and the co-op recommend very light dosing. How much exactly are you adding now? Volume, repeats, water changes. 

When light is just enough and no CO2 is provided plants manage to slow their growth rate down. In similar water parameters and higher light and Co2 you would have noticed more severe/ classic nutrient problems. If you do not provide enough nutrients plants will do even worse with CO2. 


The reason why plants with more roots do better is unlikely related to Flourish or eco incomplete but has more to do With the debris you mention. This provides some modicum of nutrition.

As we are speaking about 2 different tanks it is hard to draw a valid comparison.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Disregarding the other tank, I just follow what the bottle instructs. Aquarium co-ops directions are 2x a week for mid/high lighted tanks. I do water changes every week, 25%. 

Granted I haven't been using the aquarium co-op fert for a long time, so its benefits are yet to be seen. Floating plants have responded well though.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Yes, you are right all aquariums have a lag time from when one intervention is done until you actuallly notice the full effects. 

However, the dose you give is a rather light dosing regime. If you follow their instructions you will add 6mg/L NO3 (equiv.) , 0.3mg/L PO4 , 0.08mg/L Fe etc... per week

When you compare this to 30mg/L NO3 , 3mg/L PO4, 0,5mg/L Feper week as described by EI you can see how you can underprovide. From what I understand, you still don't have CO2 and high light so it is unlikely that plants will consume a full EI dose. You could try half of that. This will take care of nutrient deficiencies most likely. You can then view how plants grow when they have enough nutrients.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Pressurized CO2 is absolutely not a "must" for stems. When my finals are over I'll be able to take some pics, but I've been having really great results with stemmed plants using just plain dirt. Basically anything other than the more needy rotalas (wallichii, macrandra) will thrive in a medium light dirt tank.

In my experience, difference in performance between two inert low tech tanks with similar setups can usually be explained by differences in mulm buildup. Low tech tanks are heavily reliant on mulm, not just as a source of micro and macro nutrients, but also as a source of CO2. Dirt is better, but if you're going to go inert low tech you need to let the tank age awhile before you can add stems.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

Bananableps said:


> Pressurized CO2 is absolutely not a "must" for stems. When my finals are over I'll be able to take some pics, but I've been having really great results with stemmed plants using just plain dirt. Basically anything other than the more needy rotalas (wallichii, macrandra) will thrive in a medium light dirt tank.
> 
> In my experience, difference in performance between two inert low tech tanks with similar setups can usually be explained by differences in mulm buildup. Low tech tanks are heavily reliant on mulm, not just as a source of micro and macro nutrients, but also as a source of CO2. Dirt is better, but if you're going to go inert low tech you need to let the tank age awhile before you can add stems.


I see. The tank is well established, but not to the point where you will find mulm in the gravel. I think i'll be getting real Co2 within the coming months. The Rotala is just surviving, not really thriving. I might just throw it in the tank with the ludwigia for now. The comeback on the Ludwigia blew me away.

Something is out of whack in the eco tank. My S.Repens doesn't look too happy right now. I need to figure out what's going on. I'll post a picture when I get a chance. 

What do you guys use to measure nutrient levels in the water? How can I figure out what my tank is sorely lacking?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

PlantsForHire said:


> I see. The tank is well established, but not to the point where you will find mulm in the gravel. I think i'll be getting real Co2 within the coming months. The Rotala is just surviving, not really thriving. I might just throw it in the tank with the ludwigia for now. The comeback on the Ludwigia blew me away.
> 
> Something is out of whack in the eco tank. My S.Repens doesn't look too happy right now. I need to figure out what's going on. I'll post a picture when I get a chance.
> 
> What do you guys use to measure nutrient levels in the water? How can I figure out what my tank is sorely lacking?


Here you can see a picture that illustrates where you see each nutrient deficiency. Nutrients that are immobile in the plant will show deficiencies in the upper leaves or where new growth is occurring, where as nutrients that are mobile in the plant will show deficiencies in the lower leaves. The plant will cannibalize its lower leaves for mobile nutrients within its tissue to form new leaves. That is a decent starting point when looking for deficiencies, after you figure old vs new growth, then we can dive a little deeper into the signs and symptoms of individual nutrient deficiencies.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

I believe I honed in on my problem in the eco tank. It's not so much the substrate, but the fact I have such high lighting in my eco tank that the nutritional needs for plants also became higher. This became evident when the only thing that changed between my two tanks was the lighting, and the excel dosing. After 2 days of sitting in my flourite tank, the rotala is sprouting roots. I think I'll be able to salvage the stems!

Aquarium co-op fetilizer is seriously good stuff. I probably would've lost my ludwigia and rotala without it. But now I know I need to dose more of it in my eco tank. I must have been seriously under dosing for the amount of light I have. 37 gallons is a weird number to work with, so I'll round up to 40 instead. Hopefully that won't create algae problems. Now that the val has been acclimated to excel, I should be able to dose the proper amounts of it in the eco tank. 

I also realize I need to add more iron in my eco tank. The S.Repens is showing signs of iron deficiency, which was probably also hurting the rotala. Both are pale at the moment. I'm going to see how they react to extra iron in the following weeks. 

There's a bit of learning curve to planted tanks, but I'm getting there.


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## dukydaf (Dec 27, 2004)

Thanks for the update. I think you are right light drives plants to grow faster. This makes any problems in dosing also show up quicker. Is there any way you can lower the light in the 37 ? Some people use an aluminum/metal mesh or raise the lights. This would just help you figure out if you are right or not about the light. 

Yes Rotala can be quite a good indicator for Iron deficiency. Top/newest leaves will become yellow/white/reddish in color depending on other conditions but will lack green. The leaves will regain their green color once iron is provided in sufficient amounts (given some lag- 1,2 days) as it is an essential part of chlorophyll production.

Yeah learning curve indeed, and once you think you know stuff you try a more sensitive plant that kick you until you fall back to the bottom of the curve....humans are no match for chlorophyll based life forms.


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## PlantsForHire (Sep 28, 2017)

dukydaf said:


> Thanks for the update. I think you are right light drives plants to grow faster. This makes any problems in dosing also show up quicker. Is there any way you can lower the light in the 37 ? Some people use an aluminum/metal mesh or raise the lights. This would just help you figure out if you are right or not about the light.
> 
> Yes Rotala can be quite a good indicator for Iron deficiency. Top/newest leaves will become yellow/white/reddish in color depending on other conditions but will lack green. The leaves will regain their green color once iron is provided in sufficient amounts (given some lag- 1,2 days) as it is an essential part of chlorophyll production.
> 
> Yeah learning curve indeed, and once you think you know stuff you try a more sensitive plant that kick you until you fall back to the bottom of the curve....humans are no match for chlorophyll based life forms.



Unfortunately I can't control the lighting intensity, but I can try to diffuse it. It's a fluval aqualife and plant led. 

Just glad to have gained the experience in this case. Gives me something to build up to when trying different plants. Eventually I'll dabble with the advanced plants. 

For sure the lack of excel also did not help in the eco tank. Now that I added the correct amount for the past few days, the plants are starting to perk up.


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