# Tahitian moon sand killed my fish



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Swapping out a substrate can and will cause a mini cycle. Dying within a week and a mini cycle could be quite to coincidence.

Any parameter reading prior / post substrate change?


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Replacing a tanks substrate comes with its hazards - i.e. you're wiping out the tanks largest area of beneficial bacteria which can lead to ammonia spikes. Were you testing water params during this time to insure there wasn't a "mini cycle", or a not so mini cycle?

Bump: @Quagulator beat me to it haha


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## Wantsome99 (Nov 27, 2016)

Quagulator said:


> Swapping out a substrate can and will cause a mini cycle. Dying within a week and a mini cycle could be quite to coincidence.
> 
> Any parameter reading prior / post substrate change?


No I used an established filter and I didn't put the fish in for 2 weeks. They died within a week of being in the tank. 0 ammonia and 0 nitrites nitrates were at 10ppm.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

An established filter doesn't guarantee sufficient bio-filtration unfortunately, and if the tank went without an ammonia source for two weeks before fish introduction, then you're looking at beneficial bacteria dying off in the filter potentially. 

Did you dose ammonia or add an ammonia source during this two week period and test to make sure all ammonia and nitrites were eliminated within 24 hours?


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

did you "feed" the filter for those 2 weeks? Did you temp / pH acclimate the media or just dumped it onto the new tank?

Letting an established filter run for 2 weeks un-fed could cause a mini cycle, improperly acclimating the filter media could also cause large die offs of bacteria. 


Any other water parameter differences from the old tank to the new tank?

Edit: @mgeorges beat me to it ahaha


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

OP made near indentical post on 12/3/16.
Still making same mistakes(despite stated experience,parameter's) and still placing blame on substrate.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I have Tahitian moon sand in 2 of my tanks and another color sand by CaribSea in another. The youngest tank is a month old, the oldest is 2+ years.

The sand, plants, and fish are doing fine.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Unfortunately being experienced at most anything still does not guarantee our performance. It does improve our performance but we still are prone to making mistakes. One easy mistake to make is being over confident and not testing or watching carefully. 
So the questions about the tests are correct to ask, but then also some info on the fish dying may be really important as most fish do not simply die. How they die is an important clue to why they die. Simply blaming a sand that so many others are using, is not really thinking it through. Big point, is that if the sand had changed and it was killing fish, why is it only one tank in one house which we hear about? I might guess there are dozens/hundreds of folks who have switched to TMS and look in on this forum. 
Not used the product and not defending it but then logic says there are many ways to kill fish and the sand seems to be out as a suspect.


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## discuspaul (Jul 27, 2010)

PlantedRich said:


> Unfortunately being experienced at most anything still does not guarantee our performance. It does improve our performance but we still are prone to making mistakes. One easy mistake to make is being over confident and not testing or watching carefully.
> So the questions about the tests are correct to ask, but then also some info on the fish dying may be really important as most fish do not simply die. How they die is an important clue to why they die. Simply blaming a sand that so many others are using, is not really thinking it through. Big point, is that if the sand had changed and it was killing fish, why is it only one tank in one house which we hear about? I might guess there are dozens/hundreds of folks who have switched to TMS and look in on this forum.
> Not used the product and not defending it but then logic says there are many ways to kill fish and the sand seems to be out as a suspect.



Agree - very well stated.


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## tuxrox (Oct 16, 2018)

In August I was researching a tank upgrade, from my 20 gallon with Eco complete, some plants and a few platies and corydoras. To a 55 gallon and more plants and fish. I figured the cory's would like some sand so I chose to split my tank between eco compete and sand. My research lead me to Tahitian moon sand, but some of the reviews on amazon said it was killing fish.

I googled this and came upon this thread, where the logic here convinced me to purchase the sand, I think I followed the right steps in setting this up.
1) I carefully moved the 20 gallon to my counter top so there was room for the new tank, I did this by putting the fish in a bucket and draining the tank completely, moving and filling it, using the correct prime dosage, and put the fish back as soon as water temp was fine, I did this a week before the new tank showed up.

2) I carefully cleaned the new tank using bleach then letting it dry then using a few rinses with prime and water.
3) I rinsed the sand very well using a bucket and many washes until the water was clear.
4) I added the substrate and planted the tank
5) I seeded the new canister filter with media from the hob and added a bit of fish food to the tank 
5) I let the tank chill for a week with the fish happy in the 20 and the plants happy in the new tank, at this point I bought a bunch more plants, and added them to the tank, My daily testing showed an amonia spike then 3 days of no amonia, no nitrite, and increasing nitrate. I decided the tank was cycled and ready.
6) I added my cory and platy, both tanks had identical PH and temp, but I used a bucket of the 20 gallon water and added water from the new tank every 5 minutes to acclimate anyhow.
7) within 2 days all 3 fish were dead, an amonia spike the day they died convinced me I was doing something wrong, the tank also had a bloom of brown diatome algae.

at this point I was devastated by my failure, but Confident you all were experts and I was the noob.
I went to the local fish store the "wet spot" and asked for advice, I was sent home with more fish, more plants (floating frogbits) and a bottle of stability.

I did an 80% water change, then followed the directions on the bottle, added the plants and the new fish, this time a few ottos to eat the algae and some white cloud minnows, and a few MTS as I enjoyed them in my previous tank.

within a week they all died.

I then tried antibiotics to restart the tank, along with 100 % water change, and new fish and another bottle of bacteria, and again all the fish and snails died.

The wet spot then had me go through and list every single thing in my tank, and when they got to the Tahitian moon sand they told me it was bad and they don't sell it anymore because it kills fish.... I argued but these guys on the forum and reddit and such say that can't be, Surely I am doing something wrong!

at this point I called Carib Sea to get some evidence, and got a call back from Judd Mcracken their head of sales. He told me that Tahitian moon sand is discontinued and that they had a large shipment 2 years ago kill fish, and any still being sold in the last 2 years, AKA late 2016, all 2017 to present are suspect and may be bad.

Carib Sea replaced my substrate with Eco Complete which they shipped to me at no cost, I spent a whole day cleaning out my tank, and now I have a happy tank with happy fish.

So yes, You guys may have been wrong, and the OP may really have had sand kill his fish, and your arguments caused me to buy sand that killed my fish.


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## Ben3721 (Jan 20, 2018)

Owe. When it comes to forums you have to watch out for those who are “forum smart” compared to experience smart. You never know who is on forums. I target my questions on certain forums. If it’s about ferts or plants, I ask here. If it’s about fish disease I’ll ask in a general fish forum flowing with traffic for quick responses. If it’s about shrimp I’ll ask on a shrimp forum. Sometimes I’ll post the exact topic on 2-3 forums. Some will yeld absolutely stupid comments that would destroy any tank. Some comments will be spot on. I had someone on another forum trying to convince me that aquariums should have 0 kh and almost zero hardness and distilled water was the way to go. Which if he followed himself would obviously murder an aquarium. Ive has people say phosphates should be 0 for planted tanks, which is wrong. Point is don’t believe in everything anyone says unless they have years in the hobby and tanks to back it up. You never know, a forum mod on a random forum might know a ton of stuff they read from dozens of sources, but only have a half dead goldfish in a bowl in their office.

This comment wasn’t directed at anyone nor do I know anything about anyone in the original post the op is referring to.


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## Wantsome99 (Nov 27, 2016)

tuxrox said:


> In August I was researching a tank upgrade, from my 20 gallon with Eco complete, some plants and a few platies and corydoras. To a 55 gallon and more plants and fish. I figured the cory's would like some sand so I chose to split my tank between eco compete and sand. My research lead me to Tahitian moon sand, but some of the reviews on amazon said it was killing fish.
> 
> I googled this and came upon this thread, where the logic here convinced me to purchase the sand, I think I followed the right steps in setting this up.
> 1) I carefully moved the 20 gallon to my counter top so there was room for the new tank, I did this by putting the fish in a bucket and draining the tank completely, moving and filling it, using the correct prime dosage, and put the fish back as soon as water temp was fine, I did this a week before the new tank showed up.
> ...


Thanks for confirming what I suspected.


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## tuxrox (Oct 16, 2018)

Wantsome99 said:


> Thanks for confirming what I suspected.


I just hope others can avoid this sand which is known by Carib Sea to be poison.
Amazon is still selling it and just yesterday another person had fish die as they referenced in their review, 45+ people had fish die because of this sand.

how many never figured out it was the sand? how many quit the hobby because of bullying from the "Experts"? I know I almost did, I dropped a thousand dollars on this tank setup and lost 30 fish despite the fact that I did everything I knew right, followed the steps layed out by the experts, my fish still died.

now I am doing the EXACT same steps but with Eco Complete and nothing is dying, maybe I am a noob, or maybe I did what Carib Sea told me and removed every spec of the sand they have stopped selling since late 2016.

I am sorry if this reads as if I am angry, ... I am not yet over the fish that died in my care.


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Wow, I would've never thought there would be an issue like this. Kind of blows away the arguments about not using BDBS because it isn't sold for aquarium use.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

I read this thread with some trepidation that maybe I've made a purchase that's responsible for my fish dying. but then again, maybe not.

Recently started up a 54 gallon and have transferred all the inhabitants of my old 10 gallon into the new tank (which was seeded with old bio-mech media from the eheim canister running on the 10 gallon). Started with 6 CPDs and 5 cardinal tetras. In the intervening 3 weeks, I've lost 2 CPDs and 1 tetra. 

Now, could it be the substrate? Maybe, but that does seem to be the least likely explanation. Could it be that the fish moved from a low-tech to high-tech tank. Maybe, perhaps they aren't handling the co2 injection and daily pH fluctuations. Could it be that the fish are totally stressed out b/c they've moved from a familiar (~1.5 year) environment to a totally new one? And that they haven't been eating normally (as much as I've tried to get them) because of it? I'm guessing this is the more likely explanation. 

I have a 8 amanos in the tank that are molting, and reproducing (!!!) so I'm doubting that there is some toxin leaching from the sand that's killing the fish. I imagine something harsh enough to kill fish would also negatively impact the shrimp as well.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

tuxrox said:


> I just hope others can avoid this sand which is known by Carib Sea to be poison.
> Amazon is still selling it and just yesterday another person had fish die as they referenced in their review, 45+ people had fish die because of this sand.
> 
> how many never figured out it was the sand? how many quit the hobby because of bullying from the "Experts"? I know I almost did, I dropped a thousand dollars on this tank setup and lost 30 fish despite the fact that I did everything I knew right, followed the steps layed out by the experts, my fish still died.
> ...


Sorry but I have to say that I both agree and disagree! Not going to agree that anybody can bully somebody on a forum. Bullied is a state of mind which can be solved easily when you do not meet the person. All it requires is not going there! 
But I do agree with part of what you are saying. Most everybody can be wrong and it is very easy to be wrong when we rely on information passed to us from folks we don't know and often should not trust. That is perhaps what I agree with most on your post. Do not totally trust anything! But then if we are not able to pass on what we consider to be the best guess with the incomplete info we have, where will folks go for information? 
Not a perfect system but perfect is hard to find. But one thing I am pretty sure of? It is almost a certain fact that fish will die, so we have to learn to pass over the bumps and enjoy the good parts. The first hundred or so you kill are the tough ones, after that most of us learn to live with it as it is not really a major point in our overall life. Things will get much tougher!


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## Blacktetra (Mar 19, 2015)

I'll say what I wish was already written here:

"I'm sorry you lost your fish. That sucks. It's upsetting, and very sad, particularly because an animal suffered despite your best attempts. It's hard, and a painfully difficult part of the hobby. Most other pets can show clearer signs of distress than fish are able to communicate. Aquatic pets are dependent on us not just for food, warmth and a drink of water, like cats or dogs, they are dependent on us for creating an entire habitat for their moment by moment existence, we basically construct the "air" they breath. It's complex, far more than we really understand. And I wish there was a way to undo the loss you've gone through. I'm also sorry you trusted reputable members of this forum, and their advice fell short. It wasn't their fault, as I would imagine they used the best information they could to try and help. But they still ultimately lead you astray, not due to their own negligence, but due to an unknown, and unexpected factor. I'm sorry, and I'm embarrassed to admit, that many seasoned forum members, and those a bit less seasoned, such as myself, often look at a post, see that the poster has 4 posts on their account, and assume they don't know what they are talking about. I'm sorry I personally sold you short and immediately doubted you were doing a good job keeping your fish. Assumptions happen all the time on forums, I'm just sad that in this case, it lead to your loss, rather than a simple misunderstanding."


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Kubla said:


> Kind of blows away the arguments about not using BDBS because it isn't sold for aquarium use.


Didn't realize there were arguments over BDBS being suitable. >
Now it must be the "Go to" substrate. :grin2:


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## tuxrox (Oct 16, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> I read this thread with some trepidation that maybe I've made a purchase that's responsible for my fish dying. but then again, maybe not.
> 
> Recently started up a 54 gallon and have transferred all the inhabitants of my old 10 gallon into the new tank (which was seeded with old bio-mech media from the eheim canister running on the 10 gallon). Started with 6 CPDs and 5 cardinal tetras. In the intervening 3 weeks, I've lost 2 CPDs and 1 tetra.
> 
> ...


My experience with the sand was like no other tank I have owned, and to be clear I have ran a 20 gallon planted low tech tank for the past 12 years, and a few non planted tanks when I was younger and living with my parents. So I am no expert but...

The sand appears to have leached some silicates *which I think is to be expected to some degree with any sand?* as indicated by the heavy diatom "blooms" and I mean everything turned brown, I had to scrub it off with a toothbrush multiple times and it kept coming back, didn't "go away" when the cycle finished.

The sand appears to have contained some sort of heavy metal or copper maybe? or something else as I would put MTS in the tank, they would be happy on the driftwood or the eco complete and stop moving as soon as they hit the sand. It took me until mid September to realize this as I was fighting algae and getting a fishless cycle going.

Once the cycle stabilized and ammonia was dutifully converting to nitrate I had spikes of ammonia every week or so, I think this was caused by something in the sand, possibly some bacteria or I don't know, I can't understand the spikes, I was feeding every other day, and removing all food after 2 minutes. I swear I was carefully not over feeding but still spikes.

my fish would be fine for a few days and then either die while still looking perfectly pristine with no damage, no inflamed gills, no red marks just dead, or they would have seizures or shimmy on the bottom.
I noticed the shimmy behavior or seizures in platies and fresh platy fry.

my plants grew great as long as I kept the diatom off them, but it was relentless..
I don't know that all of this was from the sand, but I think at the very least some sort of metal or bacteria and heavy silicate or whatever else could cause diatoms like this.
I don't know what causes the seizure like behavior.

I managed to save one fish by putting him in the sterilized 20 and doing daily 50% water changes and and dosing prime since the tank had lost its cycle and I didn't want to bring any contaminates from the big tank.
all the others died


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

This is not a happy thread but still a very valuable one: I hope that more people stumble on it and learn about CaribSea Tahitian Moon sand and how CaribsSea handled the contamination.

CaribSea could have recalled the product or posted a note on their website or used any other of the million methods to notify their customers. I am not happy with them and now none of their products will be on my shopping list. Too many other companies had to deal with similar situations, from dog food contamination to anthrax in human food and it should not take a CNN story for an appropriate corporate response.

That said, who could have thought the comercial substrate was to blame? In any similar situation, regardless of OP's expertise or noobness, in forums or in person, the correct approach is to start eleminating the most probable causes first, user error and a simple oversight being the most common.

I am sorry for what some people had to endure in this case. But let this be a reminder to all of us - bad things do happen to good people on a daily basis. As a community, we need to support each other, not bicker over a post count.

My 2 tanks with pre-2016 CaribSea TahitianMoon sand are doing just fine 5 months after my initial reply to this thread. Regardless, I do put trust and loyalty above the cost and looks. Once broken, it's never regained. I'd rather import my sand from Sahara.


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## tuxrox (Oct 16, 2018)

How they handled it is infuriating to me as well.
I was so sure the Wet Spot was wrong, I thought, Carib Sea is a trusted brand, how could something that works for so many be so bad, and it's just sand.

When I called them I said "Hey, the local fish store says your sand is killing my fish, is there someone who can give me evidence that this isn't the case?" I was told I would get a call back from a tech soon.

that was Friday just before 6 eastern time so I didn't expect a call back soon, but First thing Monday morning 7am Pacific time I get a call from their Sales Manager Jud McCracken and he doesn't even try to argue that the sand couldn't be blamed. He says ammonia spikes and algae blooms along with fish death were experienced in a shipment in 2016 to the Wet Spot. The blame was placed on a bad shipment from a supplier. They believe it was isolated to a particular batch and they had made "every effort to retrieve and destroy the contaminated sand", and that the product was discontinued. 

He told me there is no good black sand on the market as far as he is aware and that they are trying to find a supplier for one that is safe. 

I think that they honestly believe they got rid of the bad sand, and I think they might be mostly right, it is possible that my sand came from Portland and that amazon has a batch of the bad stuff that they are still selling. It is possible that there exists on the market unopened bags of this sand that aren't bad. 

So I don't know that every bag of Tahitian moon sand will kill fish, I know the one I bought did, and I know the reviewer who just posted yesterday on the amazon page got a bad bag. And I am quite sure the OP had a bad bag or two.

I think had they just recalled the sand or given us a lot number to double check or something I would feel different, but its just like with the dog food, the damn company doesn't value fish enough to do a recall properly.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

tuxrox said:


> I just hope others can avoid this sand which is known by Carib Sea to be poison.
> Amazon is still selling it and just yesterday another person had fish die as they referenced in their review, 45+ people had fish die because of this sand.
> 
> how many never figured out it was the sand? how many quit the hobby because of bullying from the "Experts"? I know I almost did, I dropped a thousand dollars on this tank setup and lost 30 fish despite the fact that I did everything I knew right, followed the steps layed out by the experts, my fish still died.
> ...


You have every right to be angry! Take every piece of advice with a grain of salt! Unless its Tom Barr talking about plants 

Sent from my SM-G950U1 using Tapatalk


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

I guess I'll find out whether my sand is toxic this friday when I add in the panda corys I have in QT. I'm surprised to see the mention of possible heavy metal or copper contamination b/c I've got amanos and nerites in my tank and they've seemed to be fine on the sand bottom.

I guess my biggest surprise at this point, and outright anger if it does turn out that caribsea has discontinued the product without any notification to stores or customers, is that TMS is still available for purchase at all the LFS around me and at many, many online retailers. It doesn't add up.

I'll be reaching out to Caribsea customer service to try and figure out what's going on. I'll let the board know what their response to me is.


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## Wantsome99 (Nov 27, 2016)

tuxrox said:


> I just hope others can avoid this sand which is known by Carib Sea to be poison.
> Amazon is still selling it and just yesterday another person had fish die as they referenced in their review, 45+ people had fish die because of this sand.
> 
> how many never figured out it was the sand? how many quit the hobby because of bullying from the "Experts"? I know I almost did, I dropped a thousand dollars on this tank setup and lost 30 fish despite the fact that I did everything I knew right, followed the steps layed out by the experts, my fish still died.
> ...


I still have 3 unopened bags of this stuff. After this topic was brought back to life I'm still pretty sour about the fish that I lost. Matter of fact I'm mad as hell about it. I searched for those fish for a decade before I found them.


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## Delapool (Mar 12, 2016)

tuxrox said:


> My experience with the sand was like no other tank I have owned, and to be clear I have ran a 20 gallon planted low tech tank for the past 12 years, and a few non planted tanks when I was younger and living with my parents. So I am no expert but...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I’ve managed to cause seizures by accident but it’s been oils leaching from wood or the oil based meds.

Was wondering where the sand comes from? Just looking at what could be there but no chemist. 

It’s possible prime was binding it, then released it but had a quick look on seachem help and seems less likely / ph drop needed.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

tuxrox said:


> ... a call from their Sales Manager Jud McCracken ...
> 
> He told me there is no good black sand on the market as far as he is aware and that they are trying to find a supplier for one that is safe.


To add a bit to my personal fire: is the Sales Manager for CaribSea implying that Imagitarium Black Sand sold at Petco across the USA is not safe? Or Flourite Black Sand, Estes Stoney River?


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

And to add further confusion to the issue? What if there is a certain amount of product that is contaminated in some way? Dose sand require and use any sort of specific tracking ? Since it is not a food item, I might guess it does not, so that really leaves little way for a company to track and account for all their product. Sold on amazon or any of a dozen other sites, would it be possible to do a recall? I'm asking because I don't know! 
But then there are also other ways that a portion of a product might become bad, even if a company knew exactly where each bag was sold. I have worked in lots of warehouses and shipping points and seen lots of things that should not happen but do. Food is one that I am much more aware of because I take that personal but there is far less concern for a bag of sand than for a bag of potatoes and that tells me it would be very easy for a product like sand to be exposed to something that kills fish. 
Something like being in a warehouse where they discover an insect problem and decide the best way to deal with it is to tent it and do a full blown kill on the whole thing? 
I'm afraid it is way easier to pick out one item and blame that even when it is not possible to know. If a warehouse storing peanuts and a company producing ice cream are prone to making people sick, I can certainly see it possible that sand could also become bad, even after being bagged. 
Nightmare situation? How about a pallet of sand gets sprayed real well with insecticide while stored somewhere. It's only sand, so why worry about keeping it clean? We buy it take it home and open the bag and do a nice job spreading it around without washing the insecticide residue off our hands? 
Not saying it happens but then I'm also not willing to say the company is the one at fault.


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## RedGrey (Sep 12, 2018)

Adding my experience. 

Earlier this year, I rescaped my 75 gallon. Was using CaribSea Crystal River, and had been happy with that for a long time... but wanted black substrate, so I switched to Tahetian Moon Sand. I was aware that I would see a mini-cycle, but my tank wan't over-stocked and I kept close tabs on parameters. I rinsed the new sand very thoroughly.

Within a month of the change, all three of my angels (4" Koi Angels) were dead.... they were acting "drunk" for about a week before they died. I was doing water changes every other day when the issues started. I also lost all of my Oto Cats. 

What's odd is that none of my tetras or Cory's were impacted. Now about 4 months later, I still have the tahetian in there. Plants are doing fine, and I've not lost any more fish, but I've also not added any new stock.

Perhaps certain species are more sensitive to whatever contaminant is in this sand?

Now, I'm scared to add more fish... may have to remove the tahetian and start over with BDBS.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

Just sent a lengthy email to CaribSea about this. If they dont repsond today, I'll call them.

Will keep the forum posted on thier response.

I'm going to be extraordinarily pissed if it turns out that they know the sand can kill fish and they've done nothing to warn customers.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Interesting corollary thread:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ati-results-back-sources-of-vanadium.385031/page-2

The SEM photos are interesting..









https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23302712



> December
> 
> Sn 34 ug/l
> Ni 598ug/l
> ...


Think that is .60 ppm Ni....


> *Nickel and vanadium critically elevated! Change water with a high quality salt or natural sea water. Check your salt mix.*





> The 96-h LC50 values for Cu, Cd, Zn, Pb, Ni, Fe, Al, and Mn were 0.006, 0.10, 0.46, 0.63, 0.83, 1.71, 1.53, and 5.71 mg/L for R. sumatrana and 0.038, 0.17, 1.06, 1.99, 15.62, 1.46, 6.76, and 23.91 mg/L for P. reticulata, respectively


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## RedGrey (Sep 12, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> Just sent a lengthy email to CaribSea about this. If they dont repsond today, I'll call them.
> 
> Will keep the forum posted on thier response.
> 
> I'm going to be extraordinarily pissed if it turns out that they know the sand can kill fish and they've done nothing to warn customers.


Thanks Aubie98! Looking forward to hearing their response. There are a TON of similar reviews on Amazon claiming that it killed fish..... but I chose to ignore them when I did my tank - I don't place much stock in Amazon reviews usually.... too many fake ones, and easy for a single person to make it seems like LOTS of ppl were impacted.

But, this forum is trustworthy... seems like genuine concern is warranted.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

RedGrey said:


> Thanks Aubie98! Looking forward to hearing their response. There are a TON of similar reviews on Amazon claiming that it killed fish..... but I chose to ignore them when I did my tank - I don't place much stock in Amazon reviews usually.... too many fake ones, and easy for a single person to make it seems like LOTS of ppl were impacted.
> 
> But, this forum is trustworthy... seems like genuine concern is warranted.


I also discounted the Amazon reviews for the same reason and unfortunately, did not see any negative reviews on this site.

Got a response back from CaribSea. My initial email was:



> Hi, I wanted to reach out to CaribSea about some issues I've recently become aware of relating to fish/invertebrate deathes in aquaria using Tahitian Moon sand as their substrate.
> 
> A forum member on the plantedtank.net forum recently made a post (https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/#/topics/1266546?page=2) about setting up a new tank with Tahitian Moon sand and having all their fish die in a relatively short period of time after adding them to the new tank. From the details shared, it does appear that the tanks were properly cycled before adding the fish. At least one other user shared a similar experience using Tahitian Moon sand and they further point to numerous negative reviews on Amazon relaying similar stories. This second forum member stated that their local fish store, The Wet Spot in Portland, OR, no longer sells Tahitian Moon because of their opinion that it kills fish.
> 
> ...


Due to a confidentiality statement at the bottom of their response, I won't share it verbatim, but the highlights were:

1. They got some comments in 2016 about fish deaths but didn't really consider it a real situation until 2017 when more comments were sent in.
2. At that point they tested the sand and did live fish tests but weren't able to pinpoint the issue. Their response is a little vague, but it seems they were not able to confirm any fish deaths.
3. But "out of an abundance of caution", they discontinued the product in 2017.
4. Any Tahitian Moon still for sale is stock that is left over, and the reason it is still available is because it "is takes a while to go through the system".
5. They want me to send some of my substrate in for testing.

My response back to them:



> So, am I to understand that you were presented with sufficient evidence that your product might be leading to fish mortality due to its use, to the point that you decided to discontinue the product, but you have neither removed the product from your website nor sent out notices to other retailers about that discontinuation? That seems to be a dereliction of responsibility on CaribSea's part.
> 
> I don't particularly find the excuse that it "takes awhile to go through the system" persuasive enough to explain why 1) the product is still on your website, or 2) it's available on multiple online retailer's sites and in-person at local fish stores and big-box pet stores. If there was enough of a possibility in CaribSea's mind that the substrate was leading to fish death then that concern should've been relayed to retailers and, more importantly, consumers. I NEVER would have bought this substrate if I knew that CaribSea had discontinued it. But that information is completely absent on any website that I visited in my research of the product.
> 
> I am more than happy to send you a sample of my substrate, but I certainly expect that CaribSea steps up and rectifies this situation for me as I am now going to have to replace more than $80 worth of substrate before I put any more fish in my tank.


Sufficed to say, I'm so mad I could spit. It boggles the mind that they as a company decided they couldn't sell their product because of the possibility it could kill fauna but they never notified their retailers or customers.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Not a fan of the Tahitian Moon sand because of how messy it is. It definitely left a sort of residue on the sides of the tank and on the surface of the water despite lots of rinsing. So of all the sands they sell it wouldn't really surprise me if this caused some sort of problem. It could have something else but I wouldn't rule it out completely. That said I have used their other sands without any sort of problem. I prefer a more natural look anyway and the black just doesn't look right to me.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

So I guess now the question is what substrate do I switch to? Was happy with CaribSea's peace river in my 10 gallon, but unless they make thing right I'm not ill be buying any of their products in the future. Thinking of eschewing black sands (especially after the reef2reef thread jeffkrol linked).


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## tuxrox (Oct 16, 2018)

aubie98 said:


> So I guess now the question is what substrate do I switch to? Was happy with CaribSea's peace river in my 10 gallon, but unless they make thing right I'm not ill be buying any of their products in the future. Thinking of eschewing black sands (especially after the reef2reef thread jeffkrol linked).


I am thinking the same thing, I was planning on using straight sand in my 20 gallon, but now I have 80 lbs of tahitain moon / eco complete in my front lawn flowerbed hoping it doesn't kill my flowers.
and 80 lbs of eco complete in my 55 gallon.

Now what do I put in the 20 gallon? I think I will avoid all Carib Sea products in the future, I don't see how they can think it's okay to not stop the sale of something they know is bad. What other products of theirs are bad?


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> 3. But "out of an abundance of caution", they discontinued the product in 2017.


This part bothers me because the website _does not mention this_. All they have to do is say "discontinued", or remove it from their product listing for freshwater substrates. WTH. I was considering this stuff in the last few weeks and had no idea they had canned it.

I've got a couple bags of substrate from them (not the Tahitian Moon), and now I'm wondering if I should just grab something else. Because here's the thing, I can forgive a mistake, but not a CYA maneuver after the fact.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

Yep, that's the part that pisses me off too. I cant understand them discontinuing the product but leaving it up on the website.

It's a shame too because I really do like their other gravels, and was considering a mix of them for a hillstream tank I'm planning. Ill wait to see what they offer to do; ive been doing a bunch of searches of their other substrates and cant find anything so I think its safe to say they are safe, but if they stone wall me on replacing the TM, I'll never buy another CaribSea product as long as I'm in the hobby. I can hold a grudge like a champ.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Isn't it time to move on? >
Count one's losses and go for the gusto! :grin2:


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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> So I guess now the question is what substrate do I switch to?


The key thing to look for is the composition of substrate for example this is the SDS for black diamond balling sand which is made from Coal slag. 

https://www.blackdiamondabrasives.com/media/1165/coal-slag-sds-rev-5-2.pdf

There is no vanadium, nickel, or barium listed in it. It is mostly silicon dioxide, aluminum, iron oxide, and calcium oxide. The only thing of any concern on the list is beryllium but it is only present at 0.00005% which shouldn't be enough to cause any issues. Many people use this in their tanks. 

Another that can be considered is Black Beauty abrasive. it is very similar to Black diamond.
http://www.blackbeautyabrasives.com/admin/resources/the-original-black-beauty.pdf

Also the earlier link to the Reef2 Reef web site only of the commenters replaced Tahitian Moon sand Hawaii black sand and his tank recovered. hawaii black sand is naturally washed by sea water for years. So toxic minerals are leached out. However these black beaches are considered a tourist attraction and it generally not available commercially.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Hawaiian sand is basically crushed lava (magma), BDBS is sieved coal slag (carbon residue..).. 2 VERY different parents to start with..though it still isn't foolproof safe,

Fact that the BDBS lists ANY Beryllium seems to b because of an effort by consumer groups:
https://www.citizen.org/sites/default/files/coal-slag-hazcom-memo.pdf 

Catch is that was pretty specific. There is no reason for them to report Nickle ect..
Point is just because it's not on the MSDS means little really.
NOT trying to knock BDBS.. it's just a err fact...

Where CaribSea got their black poison from is ?? but there is a Canadian brand of "black stuff' that does list high Nickle content and is NOT usable for aquariums.. 
forgot the brand off hand..

SEE Table 1 for analysis of BDBS's "parents"...IN general..
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5391280/ 


> Fe was the major element identified in bulk samples. Some samples contained Mn, Ni, Ti, and V at levels above 100 milligrams per kilograms (PPM) (mg/kg Be was detected in some unprocessed coal slag (0.22 – 4.1 mg/kg), but below the limit of detection (<LOD)


CarbSea had a err.. "safe" product that, for whatever reason, went bad...

Just a reminder .. RAW Nickle is "magnetic" like Iron.


> Ferromagnetic means they are attracted to magnets and can be magnetized themselves. Most metals aren’t magnetic with the exception of iron, nickel, cobalt, gadolinium, neodymium and samarium.


Reason to mention this is err.. food for thought.
Any of these types of "soils" w/ a high proportion of magnetic material is "possibly " also high in Nickle (well increases the odds since it seems some processors sometimes apparently "pull" the magnetic material out.
Speculation from this chart and listing "Primary Magnet"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5391280/table/T1/?report=objectonly

Note the high Nickle and of course Iron content..
This is more of a thought exercise than totally based on reality..

BDBS and it's sister black Magic seem OK 
https://abrasivesinc.com/products/b...MIocSbo56P3gIVDhgMCh1low3zEAMYAiAAEgKKe_D_BwE

Think my personal bottom line is to not use anything w/ a high magnetic component..
Gut feeling..


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

I'm just thinking that I want to move away from black substrate totally. Might use peace river if caribsea offers to replace substrate. Ran across active-flora lake gems and really like the color, but the grains are too big a 3-6 mm.

Buceplant has some really nice looking natural sand. Wondering if anyone has experience using it.


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## jrod36107 (Oct 31, 2015)

Wow, I set up a 40B in the spring of 2016 with TMS, that I had fish after fish die in for the first 8-12 months. Everything has stabilized now to the point my GBR spawn, this just has me wondering if i had a bad batch as well and the toxins have all leached out.


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## RedGrey (Sep 12, 2018)

I spoke to CaribSea - they are very responsive.
As to the magnetic quality, it is most likely iron silicate.

They are looking into what they can do to assist.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

RedGrey said:


> I spoke to CaribSea - they are very responsive.
> As to the magnetic quality, it is most likely iron silicate.
> 
> They are looking into what they can do to assist.


Yeah, I have to say as mad as I am about the TMS, CaribSea seems to want to make things right. They've offered to replace the sand outright with anything they sell or give me a refund. I think that's fair, I just don't know what substrate i want to put in the tank.

Buceplant natural sand: https://buceplant.com/products/natural-sand?variant=3582364581928
Buceplant natural sand, fine: https://buceplant.com/products/fine-natural-sand?variant=3582428545064
CaribSea Peace River, sunset gold, or crystal river: https://caribsea.com/aquarium/#

I'll have ohko stone in the tank, so while I like the look of the sunset gold sand, I think it'll blend with the stones too much. The Peace River gravel worked great in my 10 gallon.

I think I'm really leaning toward getting a refund from CaribSea and (depending on the $ amount), getting either the regular or fine natural sand from BP.

Edit: was away from the house yesterday and today and while I can confirm that no CPDs died in the interim, I can only see two of the cardinal tetras. That's not saying the other two shuffled off the mortal coil b/c the cardinal's have done nothing but hide since being added to the new tank.


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> I'm just thinking that I want to move away from black substrate totally. Might use peace river if caribsea offers to replace substrate. Ran across active-flora lake gems and really like the color, but the grains are too big a 3-6 mm.
> 
> Buceplant has some really nice looking natural sand. Wondering if anyone has experience using it.


Yeah, I could see myself using that sand aesthetically, although it's a bit pricy for what it is. 

Right now, I've got a 20lb bag of Peace River and a 20lb bag of Moonlight Sand that I was going to use for my 90P. Since it's already out of the return period, it seems pointless to pitch it if there isn't anything wrong with it. Especially since I haven't found a good replacement for the Peace River. But I suspect I'll need a second bag of the Peace River for the scape I want to do. So I'm torn if I want to give them the business for the last 5 lb bag I'll need or not.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

Kaiede said:


> Yeah, I could see myself using that sand aesthetically, although it's a bit pricy for what it is.
> 
> Right now, I've got a 20lb bag of Peace River and a 20lb bag of Moonlight Sand that I was going to use for my 90P. Since it's already out of the return period, it seems pointless to pitch it if there isn't anything wrong with it. Especially since I haven't found a good replacement for the Peace River. But I suspect I'll need a second bag of the Peace River for the scape I want to do. So I'm torn if I want to give them the business for the last 5 lb bag I'll need or not.


I mean, for what it's worth, they do seem very willing to try and make the situation right. I do think they should have (and still should) do more to make sure none of the remaining TMS is sold.

But as for a 1-on-1 customer-retailer relationship, I'm kind of satisfied right now. 

I think I'm going to go with the Buceplant sand. I agree it's pricey, but so was the TMS. And hopefully since they've offered a refund, I'll recoup most of the price for the BP sand.

I could probably find it much cheaper somewhere else, but expediency is really my goal right now and I don't mind supporting BP at all. Great company.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

This is Caribsea Sunset Gold in my formerly high tech plant tank which I have converted into a planted Corydoras tank. I like it well enough but my one complaint is it is too powdery. I prefer sand with slightly larger grains. Sunset Gold is .25 - 1.0 mm. Peace River I have as a top dress for some house plants and that is supposed to be 1.0 - 2.0mm and to me that is too large and gravel like. So I guess I want something in between which Caribsea doesn't really seem to carry in a color I like. I'm moving soon and hoping to upgrade a few of my tanks and I will probably go with ADA Colorado or La Plata sands. The Colorado is a similar color to Sunset Gold but slightly larger grain sizes. 

I WISH that in the US we could get a decent fine grain natural looking dark brown sand but I looked everywhere and couldn't find one. ADA makes one called Congo that comes in two grain sizes but it seems to only be for sale in Europe and Asia. 

40 gallon planted aquarium by Kaveh Maguire, on Flickr


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## Kaiede (Sep 11, 2017)

aubie98 said:


> I mean, for what it's worth, they do seem very willing to try and make the situation right. I do think they should have (and still should) do more to make sure none of the remaining TMS is sold.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don’t have any beef with BP. My 90P was purchased from them. It’s mostly that the local store that carries the “Super Naturals” line charges 20$ for a 20lb bag, making BP nearly double the cost, before shipping. So the jump sticks out.

I’m honestly thinking of that sand instead of the moonlight now to cut the contrast a bit though. Black river rock and bright white sand is a bit much, but I still want a lighter sand than something like Sunset Gold, and I want it to be fine for Cories. And I really need to get stuff switched over in the next couple weeks after leak testing the 90P.


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## aubie98 (Apr 22, 2017)

Kaiede said:


> Yeah, I don’t have any beef with BP. My 90P was purchased from them. It’s mostly that the local store that carries the “Super Naturals” line charges 20$ for a 20lb bag, making BP nearly double the cost, before shipping. So the jump sticks out.
> 
> I’m honestly thinking of that sand instead of the moonlight now to cut the contrast a bit though. Black river rock and bright white sand is a bit much, but I still want a lighter sand than something like Sunset Gold, and I want it to be fine for Cories. And I really need to get stuff switched over in the next couple weeks after leak testing the 90P.


Dang, just noticed how expensive the 25 lb quantity was. $39.99 for 25 lbs works out to 1.60/lb, but the 38 lb quantity is $44.99, so only $1.18/lb, much closer to the $1/lb cost of the Super Naturals. If you like the BP sand more, you'll only be paying ~$5 more in total (assuming you were going buy ~40 lbs)

And there is no shipping cost IF you only buy the sand, I tried to add a couple of plants and that triggered $8 in shipping for some reason.


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## Nikitarn (Nov 8, 2018)

Thank you so much for this insite into TMS , my BF and I just set up our tank in a new house and used the TMS . EVERY fish we put in died within a week our water was tested multiple times and always came back good or WNL. My bf is very knowledgable of fish and has always had great sucess with fish. but he wanted something new in our new house so we decided on black sand thought if would be cool really show off fish colors. SO we but from amazon TMS and have had nothing but dead fish and lots of brown algae (or whatever it is) growing wild. Now at least we can try removing the sand and hope for a better out come. I have 6 betta fish that we've had since moving into our new home. Originally thought our well water was causing the problem since we tested just over normal for nitrates, but my bettas have been thriving in their bowels with not deathes and ive had them over a year before we moved. Thank you for your post helped alot!!


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Hmmm... My daughter moved around the end of May, broke her tank, bought a kit, and switched to Eco-Complete at the same time. She had a tank wipe-out. I'd have expected some deaths due to cycling (she changed to the filter that came with the kit) but all the fish? And some acted like they were in shock when she put them in. We thought maybe at least part of it was chloramines but she got ammonia absorber (and prime) and still lost everything.

I have a tank with the sand in it though - a 10. When I set it up several years ago, it got pressed into use quickly to sort out some juvie angels. I lost all the ones in that tank. I figured I was overfeeding. I just left it fallow for a while - doing water changes if enough evaporated out - until I impulse bought a betta. He lived in the tank for well over a year. Think maybe whatever it was leached out?


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## Yoemen66 (Apr 28, 2011)

I hate to read this. I had a planted tank for 6 or 7 years a decade or so ago and loved how TMS looked with a river of white sand in the middle.


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## shanmoon (Nov 29, 2018)

*Worried about new 11/18 tank with this sand*



aubie98 said:


> I read this thread with some trepidation that maybe I've made a purchase that's responsible for my fish dying. but then again, maybe not.


I setup a new tank a week ago with this sand (purchased online). I then tried to buy another bag at Petsmart yesterday, and was told it should have been pulled from the shelves because it was flagged "obsolete product - recall". 

Now I am worrying a bit about the safety of my tank.

I also have three bags of the eco complete version of the tahitian moon sand I had intended to use in a new 45 gallon tank. Thinking I should call CaribSea about replacement substrate. I can't mind any date on the bags to indicate when it was manufactured, so I have no idea if it is pre/post 2016. Sure wish I had seen this thread before I bought 3 bags of the non-eco and 3 bags of the eco complete version.


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## shanmoon (Nov 29, 2018)

Just contacted CaribSea who offered to replace what I recently purchased.


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## thatpreludeguy (Apr 3, 2018)

Well this is really frustrating to read, although I haven't tested using any fish I just setup my Spec V with this sand and when reading this I'm thinking I should swap this out and return the sand. It's too bad since it looks so nice and older threads really loved it which is what caused me to buy it in the first place.

Bump: Well this is really frustrating to read, although I haven't tested using any fish I just setup my Spec V with this sand and when reading this I'm thinking I should swap this out and return the sand. It's too bad since it looks so nice and older threads really loved it which is what caused me to buy it in the first place.

Bump: Well this is really frustrating to read, although I haven't tested using any fish I just setup my Spec V with this sand and when reading this I'm thinking I should swap this out and return the sand. It's too bad since it looks so nice and older threads really loved it which is what caused me to buy it in the first place.


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