# Building a Speece cone CO2 reactor



## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

I like the basic Speece cone idea. If you look for @Ken Keating1 's build thread, near the bottom of post 1 you will see his variable volume reactor which I believe is basically a Speece cone.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Oh yeah! it is here
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...-results-ppm-why-dont-we-do.html#post11147935

That does looks like a speece cone 

I just found a commercial version
https://www.aquamerik.com/boutique/oxygen-saturators-pvc/?lang=en


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*in-line diffuser*

I have been thinking of using an in-line diffuser just like Mr. Keating does. But I read that it does not work with a Cerges reactor, too many micro bubbles escape. Just read that the bubbles are doing ok in his style reactor :grin2:
Even better!




Ken Keating1 said:


> With the reactor I'm using, all bubble get dissolved into the water column before they exit the reactor. ........snip....



The only problem is........I have only around 14" vertical space in my cabinet :frown2:


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Space being an issue...the cerges style will probably be your best bet and they are perfectly good reactors. I use a Rex Grigg but I have more space. I still chopped mine down to a total length of 16" which probably isn't ideal but it seems to work well.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I didn't know these were called Speece cones. I think I was previously searching for them under something like gas cone or some such. Anyway I tried to build one out of pvc a year back. Here is what mine looked like:










As you can see its quite huge. I used it in some experiments where I tried to dissolve room air into the water, I wanted complete dissolution but couldn't make it work. I eventually cut it apart to make a smaller modified rex griggs style reactor with a bypass. 










I recently added a valve on the bypass because apparently that is where it actually needs to be. 

Kind of what I discovered is that its easy to overthink co2 reactors but the reality is that any reactor with slowed water movement is going to work and its us hobbyists that tend to mess them up by adding doodads on.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Yeah, I hear you.....that could be my only option........unless I put the Speece reactor in the adjacent room, where I am planning to put the CO2 equipment, anyway. Longer hoses from the canister filter will be needed...but sure how much that will slow down the flow, though.


I do have a couple of concerns about Cerges style reactors, though:


Most people say that they slow down the flow.
Need pressure buildup inside it, using valves.

I got a Fluval G6, rated at 265 GPH with filter media, head and hoses factored in (its pump is rated at 665 GPH). I really should test it out. Tank is a 65 gallon. I am not going with a sump at this time. Maybe with the next, bigger tank with bigger stand where all this could fit inside. My tank right now is very plain vanilla, started it a month back... I have a mud room to the right side of that filter sitting on the floor. Planning to punch a hole through the wall, behind that canister...for CO2 pipe. Got some other ideas also....but that is now going OT. Gotta start another thread for that.

















Nubster said:


> Space being an issue...the cerges style will probably be your best bet and they are perfectly good reactors. I use a Rex Grigg but I have more space. I still chopped mine down to a total length of 16" which probably isn't ideal but it seems to work well.


Bump: So question.......
Can we slow down the water flow through Cerges and let most of the water flow through the bypass...or are those valves intended to increase water pressure inside Cerges? I am confused....I have read that the latter is true.


I am trying to keep water flow intact.




minorhero said:


> snip
> Kind of what I discovered is that its easy to overthink co2 reactors but the reality is that any reactor with slowed water movement is going to work and its us hobbyists that tend to mess them up by adding doodads on.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

minorhero said:


> As you can see its quite huge. I used it in some experiments where I tried to dissolve room air into the water, I wanted complete dissolution but couldn't make it work. I eventually cut it apart to make a smaller modified rex griggs style reactor with a bypass. .


Your reactor design wasn't the issue with incomplete dissolution, the problem was that air is 78% nitrogen and nitrogen is only slightly soluble in water. If you used CO2 only you would most likely would of had complete dissolution.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@minorhero was going to mention about the valve on the by-pass but you already noted that. 
Something of interest, being on the subject of the bypass valve, in my original setup I was using a Marineland canister filter. With it's filtered flow of XXX gallons per hour, having the bypass valve at 60-70% shut seems to be about right for dissolving the bubbles before they left the reactor. I eventually upgraded to the AquaTOP CF500 canister and found the water flow thru the reactor to be too fast. With the bypass valve set to 40-50% shut the flow thru the reactor was again correct.
Recently I installed a Fluval FX4 canister filter. After a little tinkering I realized there was alot more flow. The bypass valve is now at about 10-15% shut. 

A bypass valve on the Speece cone would likely be of the same value - optimizing flow within the reactor and allowing the excess flow to bypass.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

THANK YOU Ken, for chiming in here :smile2:


May I ask you a question?
What would you do different if you had to build that reactor again? 

Does it really need to be that tall?
Will it help if the bottom of it was wider, like a real cone? only if there was a way to get or make one.



Sorry, that was more than one question :nerd:





Ken Keating1 said:


> Your reactor design wasn't the issue with incomplete dissolution, the problem was that air is 78% nitrogen and nitrogen is only slightly soluble in water. If you used CO2 only you would most likely would of had complete dissolution.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

@rajdude - one of the biggest problems I have found with the Cerges reactors is not the basic design, but the inlet/outlet of the water filter being converted to a reactor. 
If you happen to stop at a Menards/Lowes/Home Depot and look at the actual whole house filters you will note the inlet/outlet thread sizes range from 1/2" to 3/4" pipe thread. But the actual hole where the water goes into is typically alot smaller. 
I found a 3M brand whole house filter (standard 10" tall) that uses 3/4" pipe thread and the hole where the water goes is atleast 1/2" to maybe 5/8" in dia - much better for water flow!

Like I stated above - the by-pass valve helps retain overall GPH water flow of the system. 
As for pressure, honestly I have found putting the reactor as close to the floor (more head pressure from the tank above) does a better job at dissolving bubbles as opposed to forcing the water from the canister filter into the reactor (valve on the reactor output).

Bump: https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/DS4101-0500#/DS4101-0500
Hmmm, wonder how big a 1,700ml (58oz) flask really is? About 1/2 gallon. Might be big enough for a 60g tank


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Ken Keating1 said:


> Your reactor design wasn't the issue with incomplete dissolution, the problem was that air is 78% nitrogen and nitrogen is only slightly soluble in water. If you used CO2 only you would most likely would of had complete dissolution.


One more question...
Where do you get those blue translucent pipe sections?
Does anyone make clear ones also?

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Immortal1 said:


> @rajdude - one of the biggest problems I have found with the Cerges reactors is not the basic design, but the inlet/outlet of the water filter being converted to a reactor.
> 
> If you happen to stop at a Menards/Lowes/Home Depot and look at the actual whole house filters you will note the inlet/outlet thread sizes range from 1/2" to 3/4" pipe thread. But the actual hole where the water goes into is typically alot smaller.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips [emoji4]

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## Marc Gallagher (Jul 10, 2016)

I'm an extrusion blow molding technician at Thermo Fisher in Rochester, I actually make these filtering flasks. There made from polypropylene that is somewhat opaque, it would be difficult to see clear liquid inside. The barbed tip has a rather small ID, maybe a quarter of an inch, so it would be quite restrictive. For a very clear cone shaped bottle, the 2000ml seperatory funnel made from Teflon (FEP) comes to mind, however, they run 6 or 700 each. But they are inert to basically any acid or base and have a working temp from -100 to 250 degrees.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

rajdude said:


> May I ask you a question?
> What would you do different if you had to build that reactor again?
> 
> Does it really need to be that tall?
> Will it help if the bottom of it was wider, like a real cone? only if there was a way to get or make one.


The one item I would change is I move the location of the valve as shown below. Sometimes CO2 will build up a gurgle a little bit and moving the valve would allow easier "burping" of the reaction chamber.

I don't believe it needs to be as tall as I initially built it, I just wanted as much CO2 reaction time within the chamber as possible. My observation is the one could probably get by with 6" of length for each chamber size. Regarding a larger size for the bottom it all depends on how much flow is going through and what size aquarium it's supporting. Lower flow means smaller pipe size can be used. The 2" bottom chamber works fine for my 55 G, but if I had a larger aquarium I would probably bump the size up to 3". 

Key Points: If using clear PVC, use a union fitting in the largest chamber, biofilm will form an you'll want to clean the reactor. Also, use a gate valve on the output of the reactor to be able control the water flow and adjust the location of the bubbles. Highly recommend using clear PVC for the reaction chambers to be able to observe what's happening.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

The pipe sections are clear PVC pipe. This pipe does have a blue tinge, which is typical of clear PVC pipe. It can be purchased by the foot at *flexpvc.com*


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*project time!*

Hmmm......those are similar to what I was looking at on eBay.


Gotta think about inlet and outlet.
Outlet is simple, drill a hole at the bottom to accept a barb.
What do we do about the inlet at the top? Drill a hole in the stopper they mention? I guess it will be made of cork or something similar, right?


Do-able!




I see a 1000ml flask for 30 bucks shipped on eBay, item number: 163164284288 

Comes with a screw on top too :nerd:







Immortal1 said:


> Bump: https://www.thermofisher.com/order/catalog/product/DS4101-0500#/DS4101-0500
> Hmmm, wonder how big a 1,700ml (58oz) flask really is? About 1/2 gallon. Might be big enough for a 60g tank


Bump: Thanks a lot Ken! I appreciate the input.
Making one like yours with all the reducers and clear PVC pipe sections may be more expensive than getting a flask....but again yours is huge compared to a small flask. And size may actually be needed to let all that CO2 dissolve....won't know until someone tries it out.



I wonder if I wanna try out the flask option >





Ken Keating1 said:


> The pipe sections are clear PVC pipe. This pipe does have a blue tinge, which is typical of clear PVC pipe. It can be purchased by the foot at *flexpvc.com*





Ken Keating1 said:


> The one item I would change is I move the location of the valve as shown below. Sometimes CO2 will build up a gurgle a little bit and moving the valve would allow easier "burping" of the reaction chamber.
> 
> I don't believe it needs to be as tall as I initially built it, I just wanted as much CO2 reaction time within the chamber as possible. My observation is the one could probably get by with 6" of length for each chamber size. Regarding a larger size for the bottom it all depends on how much flow is going through and what size aquarium it's supporting. Lower flow means smaller pipe size can be used. The 2" bottom chamber works fine for my 55 G, but if I had a larger aquarium I would probably bump the size up to 3".
> 
> Key Points: If using clear PVC, use a union fitting in the largest chamber, biofilm will form an you'll want to clean the reactor. Also, use a gate valve on the output of the reactor to be able control the water flow and adjust the location of the bubbles. Highly recommend using clear PVC for the reaction chambers to be able to observe what's happening.


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## Marc Gallagher (Jul 10, 2016)

That 1000 ml is definitely mislabeled, it's made from petg, not polypropylene, they're made on bekum 7. It's also not meant to be autoclaved as they're a single use sterile bottle used more in biotech for cell cultures and whatnot. We also make a 2000ml in the same style, baffled bottom and a regular bottom as well.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Marc Gallagher said:


> I'm an extrusion blow molding technician at Thermo Fisher in Rochester, I actually make these filtering flasks. There made from polypropylene that is somewhat opaque, it would be difficult to see clear liquid inside. The barbed tip has a rather small ID, maybe a quarter of an inch, so it would be quite restrictive. For a very clear cone shaped bottle, the 2000ml seperatory funnel made from Teflon (FEP) comes to mind, however, they run 6 or 700 each. But they are inert to basically any acid or base and have a working temp from -100 to 250 degrees.


Wow! Small world [emoji16]
Thanks for the info.

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Marc Gallagher said:


> That 1000 ml is definitely mislabeled, it's made from petg, not polypropylene, they're made on bekum 7. It's also not meant to be autoclaved as they're a single use sterile bottle used more in biotech for cell cultures and whatnot. We also make a 2000ml in the same style, baffled bottom and a regular bottom as well.


Good to know! Marc [emoji106]

Hey, wait a minute, sometimes companies give out samples of their products. Any chance we could get our hands on that 2000 ml model you mention? [emoji12]

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## Marc Gallagher (Jul 10, 2016)

rajdude said:


> Marc Gallagher said:
> 
> 
> > That 1000 ml is definitely mislabeled, it's made from petg, not polypropylene, they're made on bekum 7. It's also not meant to be autoclaved as they're a single use sterile bottle used more in biotech for cell cultures and whatnot. We also make a 2000ml in the same style, baffled bottom and a regular bottom as well.
> ...


I wish I had that kind of pull around here, they allow us to take home some bottles and carboys with supervisor approval, but fep resin is over 50 dollars a pound and even the rejects get sent out to be reprocessed so we can use the resin again.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Wait a minute... what is this thingy?
https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/glass-air-oxygenator-co2-diffusion-bell.html

If the link gets stripped out search for Glass Air Oxygenator & CO2 Diffusion Bell on GLA's website

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=897095&stc=1&d=1587653728


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

(This "bump" thing in this forum software is annoying!)

No worries, if I wanna buy that 2000 ml flask, is there a distributor or a store or something?
I wonder if they will sell to the public, I mean like just one piece.




Marc Gallagher said:


> I wish I had that kind of pull around here, they allow us to take home some bottles and carboys with supervisor approval, but fep resin is over 50 dollars a pound and even the rejects get sent out to be reprocessed so we can use the resin again.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Hold me over?

Until I get a proper Speece cone built, if there a "hold me over" option? I could buy an inline diffuser...but they are like 40 bucks, and that money could go waste if I don't use it in the long run.

Can I just use an air diffuser, for a week or so? I have a few lying around unused.

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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Or just build a Rex Grigg for like $20 and be done with it. It's the same principle just different shape but the rate of CO2 disolved into the water is likely very close to the same as the Speece. Certainly close enough that IMO it's not worth the extra money and trouble of finding the parts to build the Speece reactor. I mean you'd think that if the Speece was head and tails better then the Rex Grigg or Cerges, other people would be using them and at least one or two companies would be making and selling them. Of course if you are doing it just to try something different and to have fun...by all means...go for it. Otherwise, I don't see the point.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*hmmmmm, but*

Well, yes I could make a Griggs/Cerges and call it a say but like I said earlier, I have a few concerns:


Low flow
Price
My flow concerns could be alleviated by making a good bypass system, but I think by the time I add the Y fittings, bypass valves, clamps, barb fittings, glue, primer......I am 99% it will not be just $20 bucks. Probably should stop at Lowes today to check out the prices.

By the way: I like this bypass design with Y fittings instead of the Tee and the elbows most other designs use. We should minimize the number of right angle turns to maintain the flow.




Capsaicin_MFK said:


> You can build a Cerge's Reactor for $20.55. The filter housing is $13 on Amazon and the other PVC parts can be found online as well. I was previously using an inline atomizer which worked fine, but my tank always looked cloudy from co2 bubbles. The reactor was 100% efficient and the water was clear. I always recommend a reactor.
> 
> Here is a pic of my old reactor.





Nubster said:


> Or just build a Rex Grigg for like $20 and be done with it. It's the same principle just different shape but the rate of CO2 disolved into the water is likely very close to the same as the Speece. Certainly close enough that IMO it's not worth the extra money and trouble of finding the parts to build the Speece reactor. I mean you'd think that if the Speece was head and tails better then the Rex Grigg or Cerges, other people would be using them and at least one or two companies would be making and selling them. Of course if you are doing it just to try something different and to have fun...by all means...go for it. Otherwise, I don't see the point.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

The flow through my Rex Grigg is just fine. If there's a major concern, bump up the size of your filter. I mean yeah...I'm sure I lost some flow, but not enough to cause me any concern. I'm using an Ehiem Classic 350 on a 32g tank.

Price...it costs about $20 to build one. Less if you know someone that has the primer/glue and maybe a scrap of pvc pipe so that the only thing you need to buy would be the fittings.


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## PlantedRich (Jul 21, 2010)

Two big points that I might add. One is that any fitting we add that goes inside the tubing does reduce flow. This is true of Cerge's, Grigg's or any other item. Easy to see why when we look at a 3/4 inch fitting and see that the walls of that fitting are something like 1/8 inch on each side of the opening, so the inside opening of a 3/4 inch fitting is more 1/2 inch! Water flow can often look very much like traffic flow. when the area is reduced the flow slows down and it will also be slowed by sharp corners like 90 degree elbows. Cause turbulence or a loss of lanes and traffic slows down. Works the same with low pressure water. 
Then there was mention of going with one of the "standard" reactors but not adding too many bells and whistles which tend to screw up the operation. 
When things work so well that they are as accepted as the Grigg's or Cerge's, they become very much like the wheel idea and it takes a mighty fine idea to improve the overall operation of either. 
When something works great, why try to improve it if not just simply as a hobby when bored?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Tinkering is awesome. That's how we get great new things or improve on old ideas. But like you said PlantedRich, Grigg's or Cerges being the wheel...I'm not sure a Speece is enough improvement (if any) to reinvent it. But again...if playing and experimenting is your thing rajdude...by all means...I just don't think it's worth it from my perspective. It's not a new idea and since the Speece has been around a while...if it was better by enough margin it would be more popular. But it could also just simply be that parts are not readily available or not available for cheap whereas the Grigg's and Cerges can be made from parts sourced at your local big box hardware store for way less than the cost that you'd put out for the Speece. I know it would be added cost over the long run, but if I were you, I'd build a Grigg (or Cerges) and run that and if you are so inclined, in the mean time start sourcing parts to play around with building a Speece style reactor. That way if that idea doesn't pan out, you have the tried and true Grigg's/Cerges and if the new idea works out, you either have a back up or you could easily sell the Grigg's/Cerges to someone else. People ask about buying them often enough you should be able to easily sell it for at least your cost in parts.


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

Wow good find on the flask!! Search terms are so freaking awesome. When I was trying to build my reactor I couldn't find anything cheaper then a few hundred dollars. But I also didn't know to call it a flask. I was searching for things like clear cones and such.

Did some e bay searching and found a company selling:

"Nalgene™ Single-Use PETG Erlenmeyer Flasks with Baffled Bottom: Sterile VENTED"

They have a 2000 ml size that cost $11.13 shipped with tax. For that price I will cheerfully experiment. I will need a means of attaching it to the rest of my plumbing. This means I need to drill the bottom, install a bulkhead of some kind, and probably do something similar at the top as well. Meanwhile I will need to create a bypass for the rest of my water since its not going to all be able to run through this thing. Anyone know a cheap place online to buy pvc parts like bulkheads and elbows etc?


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

this is mine

actual co2 reactor is at the UV light.


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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

rajdude said:


> Well, yes I could make a Griggs/Cerges and call it a say but like I said earlier, I have a few concerns:
> 
> 
> Low flow
> ...


The $20.55 is not including the true wyes or the ball valves, it is just the required parts for the reactor. I can make a list with all the websites if you want.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*good find!*

Whoa! good find! Thanks! But it says baffled bottom, maybe we'll need to drill on the side?



When I looked for yours another one popped up under it
item # 162440034162
Nalgene PETG Sterile Plain-Bottom Erlenmeyer Flask with Vented Closure
$39.99 free shipping
Expensive, but hey! it is 2800 ml! Measures 273.1mm high, with an outside diameter of 161.5mm at the widest part of the base and an inside diameter of 35.6mm at the neck


:grin2:





I wish I knew where to buy PVC stuff online for cheap, other than eBay. Home Depot - Lowes may have the bulkhead barb fitting we need for this.

Here is one which may work... eBay item number: 174244707664 for $7.38 for two, shipped :nerd:



So for eighteen and a half dollars....total its a good test! Ha ha







minorhero said:


> Wow good find on the flask!! Search terms are so freaking awesome. When I was trying to build my reactor I couldn't find anything cheaper then a few hundred dollars. But I also didn't know to call it a flask. I was searching for things like clear cones and such.
> 
> Did some e bay searching and found a company selling:
> 
> ...


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Bettatail said:


> this is mine
> 
> 
> 
> actual co2 reactor is at the UV light.


Wait! what? That small thing works for you??

Nice!

What housing it that one?

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> The $20.55 is not including the true wyes or the ball valves, it is just the required parts for the reactor. I can make a list with all the websites if you want.


No thanks, I think can figure out the rest of the fittings. 

What is that filter housing you used and it's source?

Design question...Why use two valves?

Isn't one in the bypass enough to control the flow..more the restriction there, more flow through the reactor, no?

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks for your advice, @Nubster, @PlantedRich and others. Yes I am tinkering... but not really trying to re-invent the wheel.

The simplest way to tinker, and test....for me here, is do do what @SingAlongWithTsing did (shown in the first post in this thread)....build a cerges and run it in reverse, with a conical bottle in the center.

Although the flask mentioned above is starting to sound very attractive!

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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

10" filter housing with 3/4" ports - Amazon ($13)
1/4" MPT 3/16" barb - HoseWarehouse ($1.69)
3/4" MPT to 1/4" FPT reducer bushing - PVC Fittings Online ($2.02)
3/4" FPT tee - PVC Fittings Online - ($1.37)
3/4" MPT x 1" barb - FlexPVC ($1.70 each, need 2)
3/4" MPT nipple - PVC Fittings Online ($0.76)

You would need teflon tape for all the threaded parts, and a portion of 1" tubing to connect to the inside of the filter housing (the picture I posted it is the green tubing).


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks for the list!

Design question...Why use two valves?

Isn't one in the bypass enough to control the flow..more the restriction there, more flow through the reactor, no?

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## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

I was worried at first about the amount of flow going through the reactor. I could've reduced flow on the bypass to increase flow into reactor, or reduce flow into reactor and more into the bypass. After setting the whole thing up it worked fine with both lanes wide open. I could've gotten away with having no valves.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks, one last question:
Those fittings, are they available locally? Like Lowe's or Home Depot?

Not the y fitting, I know they are available online only.

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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

rajdude said:


> Wait! what? That small thing works for you??
> 
> Nice!
> 
> ...


it works, water flow from top to bottom in the UV housing, and it is about 3 to 4 diameter, 16 inch long, flow rate is fast but I don't push co2 that much into the reactor(UV light), I also have diffuser up in the 160G tank.
if I need a complete reactor and it is easy task, I only need a bigger size tube/pipe to replace the UV light.

add:
I look at the UV housing again, actually it is not that big, about 3 inch diameter, and 14 inch long...


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## Marc Gallagher (Jul 10, 2016)

minorhero said:


> Wow good find on the flask!! Search terms are so freaking awesome. When I was trying to build my reactor I couldn't find anything cheaper then a few hundred dollars. But I also didn't know to call it a flask. I was searching for things like clear cones and such.
> 
> Did some e bay searching and found a company selling:
> 
> ...


The closure will have a hole molded top dead center, maybe 1/4 or 1/2 inch, can't quite remember at the moment. There will also be a piece of filtering paper adhered to the inside. The blue closure is the vented style, the white is non-vented. It might be better to get the non-vented and drill the closure yourself as I think there's a ring of plastic on the inside of the vented version that protrudes outward on the inside of the closure, that would interfere with sealing it properly.

Don't buy the vented version, buy the unv


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Ken, clear PVC vinyl pipe is not the same thing as clear PVC pipe, correct?
Yesterday, I went to Home Depot, because their website shows they have this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbil...bing-HKP001-PVC017/303132517?modalType=drawer


I looked at it and realized:
1. it is flexible
2. it does not fit into any slip fittings, OD is not compatible
3. probably cannot be joined using the cement


So I guess I will have to order what you suggested. Was hoping I won't have to wait and also, pay shipping :frown2:





Ken Keating1 said:


> The pipe sections are clear PVC pipe. This pipe does have a blue tinge, which is typical of clear PVC pipe. It can be purchased by the foot at *flexpvc.com*


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I've seen Home Depot's clear PVC tubing, and it's flexible, not rigid like clear PVC pipe. So yes, it's waiting time and I know the feeling!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

So I also need some recommendation please, on what pipe/hose to buy.


I need around 20 feet, 16 mm (or 5/8") ID. From canister to reactor and back to tank. And for bypass also. Also thinking of moving the canister to an adjacent room, where I am planning to have the CO2 tank, reactor etc. 

*Options so far are:*



I looked at the clear vinyl hoses at Home Depot. They are very easy to kink so not too keen on those.
I saw braided versions. A little expensive there, $20 for a 10' length.
On flexpvc.com I see their flexible hoses...but they say those are NOT for potable water....meaning not good for aquarium use also.


In your thread, I see some flexible pipe you are using, visible in your shed photos. What is that?
Is its interior smooth or corrugated?

*Last Q*: does it makes sense to just buy all PVC fittings from flexpvc?



Ken Keating1 said:


> I've seen Home Depot's clear PVC tubing, and it's flexible, not rigid like clear PVC pipe. So yes, it's waiting time and I know the feeling!


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Ken Keating1 said:


> I've seen Home Depot's clear PVC tubing, and it's flexible, not rigid like clear PVC pipe. So yes, it's waiting time and I know the feeling!



Curious...
"WeldOn 40 is a two-part product which is mixed and used to *bond acrylic* and *PVC* together. It can also be used to *bond acrylic* with wood. Clear *PVC* cement can be used to *bond acrylic* with plastic in some cases, although it is not as strong"
Bonding and glueing acrylic and Plastics



Plexiglass is basically acrylic sheet.


With all that said, how hard is it to get acrylic tube?
https://www.acmeplastics.com/cut-to-size-clear-acrylic-tube


4" x 24" is $47 - seems a bit expensive. 4" x 10" is $20. 2"x10" is also $20 (guessing $20 is kinda a minimum order)
Just some ideas


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Immortal1 said:


> Curious...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The problem is acrylic tube does not fit PVC fittings.

4" Tube is quite large, 3" should be more than enough.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Ken Keating1 said:


> The problem is acrylic tube does not fit PVC fittings.
> 
> 4" Tube is quite large, 3" should be more than enough.


:-( bummer. Seemed like a good idea


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

@rajdude : buying fittings at Flexpvc is easy, plus they have everything. I spent two days running around looking for pvc fittings and couldn't find what I needed, whereas Flexpve had it along.

For 16mm hose I'd go with *Eheim hose*, well made and it doesn't easily kink. Yea, it's going to be a little more expensive, but it works well and I haven't had any problems with it.


In the shed I have *clear braided hose*, which is what flexpvc calls it also. It'll be more expensive than the Eheim hose and it'll be less flexible.

Hope this helps! Post photos of your progress.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Good idea?*

Hi Ken,
About the burp-tee. How about I do something like this...
I use braided hose or Ehiem hose to form a "sweep" instead of using elbows. Why? Because...


1. Hoping to get better flow than by using elbows. And 
2. This way, hopefully, after I stop the flow of water, the bubble will rise to the top of the inverted U and by opening the valve, be ejected out from the system. 



Note that the valve is pointing upwards since the gas will rise. The other side of the valve can be temporarily put in a bottle instead of routing it all the way to the drain.
Does this make sense?

Asking because I have zero real world experience with these things and you have tons 


















Ken Keating1 said:


> The one item I would change is I move the location of the valve as shown below. Sometimes CO2 will build up a gurgle a little bit and moving the valve would allow easier "burping" of the reaction chamber.
> 
> I don't believe it needs to be as tall as I initially built it, I just wanted as much CO2 reaction time within the chamber as possible. My observation is the one could probably get by with 6" of length for each chamber size. Regarding a larger size for the bottom it all depends on how much flow is going through and what size aquarium it's supporting. Lower flow means smaller pipe size can be used. The 2" bottom chamber works fine for my 55 G, but if I had a larger aquarium I would probably bump the size up to 3".
> 
> Key Points: If using clear PVC, use a union fitting in the largest chamber, biofilm will form an you'll want to clean the reactor. Also, use a gate valve on the output of the reactor to be able control the water flow and adjust the location of the bubbles. Highly recommend using clear PVC for the reaction chambers to be able to observe what's happening.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

If you have enough room for the tubing to bend it should work out fine. 


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*bypass?*

Thanks!


I am also wondering, do I really need a bypass path, complete with a valve in that path also? 

My reactor would be simply in the output of the canister filter. 

I am already at $86. Number of parts is 24.


I am looking at all the PVC fittings on flexpvc.com and designing something like yours. Trying to keep the path free from Tee connections is proving a little difficult. Y barbs are available, but then I will end up with a lot of tubing :frown2:


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*My design*

ok here is my design (Sorry for the crappy drawing and the photo. The scanner chewed it up, so I had to make do with a photo)

I think I can make the bypass pretty easily and cheaply by using a $2.50 barb valve and couple of Y fittings. 

Total is at $89.08. Out of that around 32 bucks is the clear PVC pipe, merely three feet.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

I'm ready to place the order, but flexpvc.com wants to charge me 27 dollars to ship these items! That brings the total to $97.77
Whoa!

Ummmm... maybe I should check them out at Home Depot and Lowe's first. I think the only thing I would not find there is the clear PVC pipe.

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Anyone got a discount code for flexpvc.com?


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Great Sketch! But the shipping cost seems high. Is there a minimum purchase amount option where free shipping kicks in?

I like the bypass as it'll allow the option of having the majority of flow go through the bypass and a smaller flow through the reactor which would be nice for fine tuning. 

Keep posting on the progress, it's fun to see how it's coming along


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*no go*

Well, I just tried a bunch of things:

Made the order above 100, it now wants 35 for shipping.
Added a roll of pipe worth $200, making the total to $270, now it wants 66 bucks to ship it!
Whoa! Something is wrong. Looks like their site is simply going for a percentage of the cost of items.

I have e-mailed them, asking them what gives. Lets see what they say. 

IMHO at these costs, this project is not worth it, because by the time I buy some hoses (and I have already bought an inline diffuser for CO2 for $30).....this whole Speece reactor thingy will start exceeding $150. :surprise:


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## cecichlidsar (Mar 22, 2010)

shipping charges are based on the weight of the order. I spent $16 something and was charged 14 something for shipping.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Revisiting this, but...*

I am going to look again into the possibility of making a Speece reactor again. I got an answer back from FlexPVC guys...they said to ask them to "manually calculate" the shipping.



*But first, I have one question for Ken: Do the CO2 micro bubbles from the inline diffuser actually fully dissolve in your reactor or do some end up in the tank?*



Asking because after running my the CO2 setup for a couple of weeks, I see that the bubbles introduced by my inline diffuser stay in the fish tank for a long time. They swish around the tank and it does not look like they are dissolving. And, they rise very slowly. Looks like the buoyancy of these micro bubbles is very low. That makes me suspect that these micro bubbles will easily escape the reactor under the water flow coming down from top of the reactor tube. No?


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

It depends on the water flow speed. With any reactor if the flow is increased there will be at some point a condition where the bubbles don't fully dissolve because there's not enough time. That's why having a gate valve on the outflow is recommended to adjust the flow such that the microbubbles don't escape the reactor.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Hi Ken! Hope you are well.
Let me know if you want a pie or cake. 
Oh! Or some Rams


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Thanks Ken,
Is the water flow very low through your reactor?
Do you get enough CO2 levels?



I suspect it has to be pretty low so that micro bubbles do not escape. I was doing some more searching and found posts where people are saying that they removed in line diffusers from their Griggs reactors because too many micro bubbles escaped........and used simple co2 hose, making big bubbles instead.





PS: I am still thinking of whether or not to order the PVC parts and build the reactor.
Another super-crazy idea in my mind is to make it out of acrylic! A pyramid shaped reactor :surprise: Gotta do a sketchup! :grin2:







Ken Keating1 said:


> It depends on the water flow speed. With any reactor if the flow is increased there will be at some point a condition where the bubbles don't fully dissolve because there's not enough time. That's why having a gate valve on the outflow is recommended to adjust the flow such that the microbubbles don't escape the reactor.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Water flow through my reactor is about 3 gpm, or 180 gallons per hour. There may be a few bubbles that get through, but not very much. At 2 feet away you can't see any bubbles in the tank. I get plenty of CO2 into the tank, so no problems there.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

This is what I'm planning for my rendition of the @Ken Keating1 VVR + bypass.

Instead of a union in the bottom pipe segment, I'm planning to put a 2" MPT adapter on it so I can unscrew the pipe from the tee for cleaning.

My canister output is 5/8 ID tubing, and I have some extra that I'll use to connect all those barbs together.

This is my first reactor... we'll see how it goes. Enjoy my mspaint "art."


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

Sweet! Keep us posted :grin2: Love your painting 

One thing to consider...a union is designed to be taken apart, again and again....whereas the threads in that not adapter are not... just my two cents.

Also, the output of the reactor needs a gate valve...to tweak the flow.

IMHO, we can live with a simple ball valve in the bypass.

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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

*Make it out of Acrylic?*

Folks, how about making a Speece cone out of clear acrylic? :nerd:

Something like this (photos below). By the way, this is my very first Sketchup drawing! 0


I can see that welding the top and bottom is going to be a pain..........I mean keeping it water tight. Maybe after welding the 4 sides, take the whole assembly to a table saw or miter saw, propped up on a jig. That way all the ends of all the 4 sides will be cut square in one go.


Add barbs / bulkhead fittings to the top and bottom and you are essentially done. Feed CO2 through an inline diffuser. Of course, the rest of the paraphernalia still is needed, gate valve, bypass etc.

I would make it around 2 or 3 feet high. 
Top around 2" almost square
Base around 6" almost square


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Should work as well as the cone round cone shape.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

rajdude said:


> Folks, how about making a Speece cone out of clear acrylic? :nerd:
> 
> I can see that welding the top and bottom is going to be a pain..........I mean keeping it water tight. Maybe after welding the 4 sides, take the whole assembly to a table saw or miter saw, propped up on a jig. That way all the ends of all the 4 sides will be cut square in one go.
> 
> ...


I love this idea. I would tweak it by making it expand in 2 dimensions instead of 3. Top about 1.5"-ish square, and bottom 1.5"-ish x 6" (or 8" or more?) rectangle. It would fit inside or behind a tank stand much easier that way. And it would be much easier to assemble IMO. I would love to see this done and see how it works out.



rajdude said:


> One thing to consider...a union is designed to be taken apart, again and again....whereas the threads in that not adapter are not... just my two cents.


If I actually ever take the thing apart, I may regret my choice there. I think it's more likely that I never take it apart.



rajdude said:


> Also, the output of the reactor needs a gate valve...to tweak the flow.
> 
> IMHO, we can live with a simple ball valve in the bypass.


I am not an expert in fluid dynamics. But my idea was that I would tweak the flow by adjusting flow through the bypass instead of adding backpressure after the assembly. I have no idea if it will work. But it's fun trying to find out.

Dry-fit:


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

Looks good, fire it up and let's see how it works!!!


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

This is looking very nice! Let us know when it starts working...I am curious about micro bubbles escaping the reactor.


May I ask how much all this stuff cost you?






zivvel said:


> Dry-fit:


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

rajdude said:


> This is looking very nice! Let us know when it starts working...I am curious about micro bubbles escaping the reactor.
> 
> May I ask how much all this stuff cost you?


Here's my FlexPVC bill:

SUBTOTAL: $41.08
SHIPPING: $17.41
TOTAL: $58.49

From Amazon:
5/8" ID Hose tees: $14/10, so $2.80 for this project
Hose clamps 16-25mm: $9/20, so $3.60 for this project
Gate valve: $7.35 (yeah, I went cheap here. Seems decent enough though)
Diffuser: $40

I already had the spare 5/8" ID hose to tie it all together.

I regret putting this all in one place since I can total it up at a glance now!


Before I start gluing, I want to figure out how to add a method for burping this thing. I am thinking about drilling the 1 x 3/4 elbow at the top and glueing in some small-diameter tubing which I suppose will be valved and vents to the tank somehow. Still in brainstorm-mode on that. I'm in no hurry. My in-tank diffuser is doing just fine... I had to dial it back today after gassing my clown loaches.

I will also probably need to shorten one of the segments in order to fit the thing under my tank. It looks like I need to lose a couple of inches in height. I'll figure that out before final assembly.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

zivvel said:


> Here's my FlexPVC bill:
> 
> SUBTOTAL: $41.08
> SHIPPING: $17.41
> ...


Thanks for the details.

As for burping it, check my hand drawing, I think it's on the first page of this thread. That's what I was planning to do.

You could do a t instead of an elbow at the top of your reactor, and put a small valve there.

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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

That easiest and cheapest burping method is leave the connecting hoses long enough such that you can easily rotate the reactor to an over horizontal position and let the bubbles flow out the bottom.


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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

Ken Keating1 said:


> That easiest and cheapest burping method is leave the connecting hoses long enough such that you can easily rotate the reactor to an over horizontal position and let the bubbles flow out the bottom.


Cheap is great, but pulling the reactor out from under this tank is going to be a PITA. There's not a lot of wiggle room down there.

I haven't looked very hard yet, but I have not found a good way to drill + glue some small tubing into a PVC elbow. I would rather not use a tee up there if I can avoid it.


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## Ken Keating1 (Nov 22, 2017)

I've drilled and then tapped threads into PVC elbows for 1/4" push to connect fittings. Do you have a good tap and die set?

Yea, if the reactor is in the cabinet it's going to be a pain to rotate it.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

+2 on the tap and die...

Get a cheap set from Harbor freight tools..they have reasonable ones, will work especially fine for PVC!

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## zivvel (Apr 17, 2013)

@rajdude how goes the square-cone reactor?

I don't want to cross-post a bunch of stuff, but my reactor has been online for 10 days, and I'm not 100% satisfied. Documentation of that starts here in my journal.


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## rajdude (Apr 13, 2020)

zivvel said:


> @rajdude how goes the square-cone reactor?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to cross-post a bunch of stuff, but my reactor has been online for 10 days, and I'm not 100% satisfied. Documentation of that starts here in my journal.


Thanks for posting here, I was wondering what happened to your project. I'll go there and read.

As for my square/pyramid style Speece cone reactor idea...
I have not found a way to make water tight joints. I did talk to some custom acrylic manufacturing shops, they said they don't have the means to make something like that.

So I am still sitting here, scratching my head over how to actually make one myself.

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