# Cherry Shrimp Keep Dying



## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

How old are the cherries? Past their prime?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Split from shoulder to shoulder? Sounds like failed molting due to low Ca in the water.


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

My shrimp were dying from failed molts and I found out it was because I didn't have a high enough gH. Those tests are really important.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Perhaps cleaning /custodial crew is using some form of spray disinfectant near the tank ?
7.5 gal tank = about five actual gallon's after substrate displacement and these small tanks are much more easily influenced by temperature changes as well as being tougher to maintain stable water parameter's.
The water used for changes is tap water? No softened water as treated by softening system's which sometimes remove the minerals like calcium, and magnesium, which cause hard water deposit's, and replace these needed mineral's with sodium salt's.


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## Andromeda01 (Oct 13, 2012)

I would buy a GH/KH test kit. It really helps to know that GH, even with cherries. How about a TDS meter? Is your TDS fluctuating too much after water changes? When you top off after evaporation do you use RO/DI water or tap?

Also overfeeding could be an issue.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Plakatz said:


> How old are the cherries? Past their prime?


Don't know for sure. Wish I could say they were old, but they didn't seem full-grown when I picked them up. I know two from the first batch were berried when I picked them up from the LFS (dropped the eggs before going into my tank ). So I know they were at least at an age of sexual maturity.



Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Split from shoulder to shoulder? Sounds like failed molting due to low Ca in the water.


This is what most information I could find suggested as well. However, the first batch molted several times before just fine and one of my amanos molted this week. Do the amano shrimp have an easier time molting than neos?


Hoping the cuttlebone I added will add Ca and help if this is truly the case.



Yukiharu said:


> My shrimp were dying from failed molts and I found out it was because I didn't have a high enough gH. Those tests are really important.


Low gH seems to be the prevailing theory and I'm planning on picking-up the kit this weekend. I've always had mineral deposits at water level so like most people I assumed the water was plenty hard... I guess we'll find out if I pick-up the test kit this weekend.



roadmaster said:


> Perhaps cleaning /custodial crew is using some form of spray disinfectant near the tank ?
> 7.5 gal tank = about five actual gallon's after substrate displacement and these small tanks are much more easily influenced by temperature changes as well as being tougher to maintain stable water parameter's.
> The water used for changes is tap water? No softened water as treated by softening system's which sometimes remove the minerals like calcium, and magnesium, which cause hard water deposit's, and replace these needed mineral's with sodium salt's.


No real custodial staff to speak of. It's a small office and honestly my bosses are too cheap to pay someone to clean the place. They pay a guy to come in once a week to empty the trash cans and clean the kitchen counters/sink, but that's it. Couldn't even tell you the last time the place was vacuumed lol

The heater does a really good job keeping the tank at exactly 75 degrees. I top-off with dechlorinated tap water. No water softener in the building. Still trying to find a water change rhythm with this tank. Last week I changed about 1g. Current plan is to do about a 1g change every other week.



Andromeda01 said:


> I would buy a GH/KH test kit. It really helps to know that GH, even with cherries. How about a TDS meter? Is your TDS fluctuating too much after water changes? When you top off after evaporation do you use RO/DI water or tap?
> 
> Also overfeeding could be an issue.


I think I'll pick the kit up this weekend. No TDS meter, but I was looking at one on Amazon the other day considering picking it up. Topping off with tap, usually I try to let the water sit overnight with a lid over it to let it come to room temperature. Using water that is cold/cool from the tap as I've heard hot water can increase copper content.

I wondered about overfeeding. Since switching to the Hikari food, I've been feeding about 6-7 pellets per day and they're gone before I know it.


What confuses me the most is my amano molted just fine this week, yet the rcs keep dying! And why is it always overnight and never during the day?


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## Aplomado (Feb 20, 2013)

I don't know that this has anything to do with it, but amanos do eat cherries sometimes.


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## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

*pesticides?*

My wife worked at a reatraunt & the bug guy would come in and spray everything. I mean everything. Even the tables tops while customers were eating.


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## pheo (Nov 28, 2014)

Where are you getting your water from? At work it might help you to get one of those 2.5 gallon "half" water cooler jugs for water changes. You could fill it a grocery store fill station or off RO/DI at home, or maybe even with tap water if it's nice enough in your area. Age it to gas out and if you use RO, make sure to put back your gh. My shrimp were all dying off after molting until i bought a GH booster. Now they're happy as... well shrimp.

Good luck. Keep an eye on your water parameters.


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## RoseTyler (Oct 27, 2014)

I've been having the same problem. 

I switched to RO/Di remineralized water and I've been doing a water change almost every other day. My shrimp finally started molting, yesterday one was berried (first berries so she dropped them). I added new stock and there was a new death last night. :icon_frow


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Aplomado said:


> I don't know that this has anything to do with it, but amanos do eat cherries sometimes.


I've heard rumors this happens, but never heard of anyone catching an amano killing a live shrimp. My amanos seem to get along with the cherries just fine. Only seen any aggression in the form of bullying the cherries away from food, but otherwise they leave them alone.

The dead shrimp are usually unmolested. The only time they looked partially eaten was when one died over the weekend. I understand cannibalism is normal when a shrimp is already dead.



Plakatz said:


> My wife worked at a reatraunt & the bug guy would come in and spray everything. I mean everything. Even the tables tops while customers were eating.


No pesticides here. I asked a coworker who has been here since the company moved to this building, and he said they probably only sprayed once and it was years ago.



pheo said:


> Where are you getting your water from? At work it might help you to get one of those 2.5 gallon "half" water cooler jugs for water changes. You could fill it a grocery store fill station or off RO/DI at home, or maybe even with tap water if it's nice enough in your area. Age it to gas out and if you use RO, make sure to put back your gh. My shrimp were all dying off after molting until i bought a GH booster. Now they're happy as... well shrimp.
> 
> Good luck. Keep an eye on your water parameters.


Water is coming from the sink in the nearest bathroom. Using prime to dechlorinate. I usually let it sit overnight before adding.

I'll have to get the gH and kH tests this weekend to see if I need a booster or not.



RoseTyler said:


> I've been having the same problem.
> 
> I switched to RO/Di remineralized water and I've been doing a water change almost every other day. My shrimp finally started molting, yesterday one was berried (first berries so she dropped them). I added new stock and there was a new death last night. :icon_frow


So in your case do you think it was high TDS causing problems or low gH? I think I saw a thread you had started. I might send you a PM later as I'm curious where your shrimp came from since we're both in the bay area.



Update: I can only locate 6 rcs this morning, but unable to find a dead body so I don't know if number 7 has actually died or just a hide-and-seek champion...


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Amanos do molest other shrimps when they are hungry but haven't really seem them eat the shrimp, must me a weird super hungry wild one someone. I've seen some of my shrimps die of old age and the Amanos aren't even near it, let alone eat it.

As long as they have plenty of moss and food, they are pretty kept to themselves.


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## RoseTyler (Oct 27, 2014)

No, I don't think it was high TDS since they have been dying still since using RODI water - it can't be the water. That being said, it's really slowed down the deaths until I can hopefully find a solution. I'm going to get another tank and start cycling it, so hopefully in a couple months I can have a better suited tank.


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## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

Update on the sheimps? I would coner my tank when I went home as a precaution..


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

I still had 6 cherries today. Still haven't found number 7 so no clue what happened (beginning to wonder if I was already down to 6 and had the wrong count).

The baby shrimp are still moving around, eating, and pooping. They're only about 1/8" in size, but I'm hoping they'll be able to grow up.

Looking at the positive: since I still had 6 today that means even if number 7 died Wednesday night, no one died Thursday night.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Went to my LFS to pick up gH/kH tests. They were out of the gH so I ordered them off Amazon instead. Also picked up a TDS meter so I'll update those parameters when my tests arrive.

Might swing by the office tomorrow to check on the shrimp. Luckily I live less than 3 miles from work.


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## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

Your first shrimp may have been older & weaker. Im guessing wveeything will be ok... good luck, keep us updated. Thanks for sharing.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Thanks, I'm hoping that turns out to be the case.

Still have 6 cherries today. Last one that died was last Wednesday night. Half a week without a death, which I'm considering progress!


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## RoseTyler (Oct 27, 2014)

BlackThumb said:


> Thanks, I'm hoping that turns out to be the case.
> 
> Still have 6 cherries today. Last one that died was last Wednesday night. Half a week without a death, which I'm considering progress!


Mine are still dropping. :icon_frow
Pretty sure the tank is cursed.


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## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

*cursed tank?*

Crazy as it sounds you might be right. Or location. Move the tank to a did location Rose and see what happens.


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## RoseTyler (Oct 27, 2014)

Plakatz said:


> Crazy as it sounds you might be right. Or location. Move the tank to a did location Rose and see what happens.


LOL I can do that when I get home. This morning another one dropped dead in front of me. It was happily eating one second before. :confused1:


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Mid-week update:

Still at the same number of shrimp (6 rcs and 2 amanos). Had a successful molt last night and another sometime this morning. 

I've always wanted to watch a molt in my own tank, and I just missed it. Swear I was looking at the tank, looked back at my computer for 2 minutes, looked back at the tank and there was a fresh molt right out at the very front of the tank.  Jerk must have been waiting for me to look away.

My test kits and TDS tester were supposed to come today, but they didn't make it. Hopefully they'll come tomorrow and I can post those test results.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Testing supplies came in! Holy crap these guys are resilient! My parameters are way off.

TDS - 650!!!! Checked the dechlorinated tap water and it's 300, water from the water cooler was only 20.. might want to start using that for top-offs until I can get some RO/DI.

kH - 4

gH - 25!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! No, that's not a typo and it's not in PPM. 25 DEGREES!! 


Cuttlebone contributes to kH and not gH, right? I really need to get that gH way down.


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

That gH is really high.... and cuttlebone increases gH and pH from what I understand.
I would slowly do water changes to bring the gh down to a more manageable level.

Bump: Also, what's the gH from your source water?


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Tank Water:
GH - 24-25
KH - 4

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Tap Water:
GH - 15
KH - 10


Does anyone know why my tap KH would be higher than my tank water? Is there something about my tank that could be absorbing the KH?


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## pheo (Nov 28, 2014)

BlackThumb said:


> Tank Water:
> GH - 24-25
> KH - 4
> 
> ...


Yes, In a low tech tank, your plants can "eat" KH as a carbon source. That might be whats happening here. 

You had added a calcium source, was that right? If you have cuttlebone or something like that you could be artificial boosting the GH. Just water change with your clean 20 tds water. 10-20% every couple of days should bring that down in a few days.

I run RO in my shrimp tank so i have to artificially add back KH and GH. Be careful with filtered water that you dont get your hardness too low.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

pheo said:


> Yes, In a low tech tank, your plants can "eat" KH as a carbon source. That might be whats happening here.
> 
> You had added a calcium source, was that right? If you have cuttlebone or something like that you could be artificial boosting the GH. Just water change with your clean 20 tds water. 10-20% every couple of days should bring that down in a few days.
> 
> I run RO in my shrimp tank so i have to artificially add back KH and GH. Be careful with filtered water that you dont get your hardness too low.



I guess that makes sense since it's *carbon*ate hardness. I add excel almost every day for carbon. I don't really measure how much exactly but usually around 1/3-1/2 a cap which I think is overdosing. Maybe I should be adding more?

Yes, I did add cuttlebone to raise calcium. I'm looking into RO. I'll have to do some research, but I know I can get some from the LFS in a pinch. I did change out about 1g of water last night using the 20 tds water. I still used some prime just in case. Tested the tds after prime and it only went up to 23.

Tested the TDS of the tank after the water change and it was still like 620-630 I think. It will take some time to bring it down.


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## pheo (Nov 28, 2014)

You've gotta get those parameters down and in control.

With my shrimp tank, (and i do not test for TDS (for shame!)) I've been doing weekly 50% changes for EI. So here's my process that seems to work pretty well (i've got at least 8 juvies that seem healthy): 

I get a 50% volume of RO and heat it up to my tank temp with a spare heater
Then remineralize to my target GH and KH. I've got a bottle of the nutrafin cichlid conditioner thats hard to get.
I add a tiny drop of Prime (0.1-0.2 ml out of a syringe)
Then i drain about 10% to do any trimming and cleaning and squeeze out filter sponges.
Then the other 40% to clean out any debris.
Careful add in the new water.

I'm doing these 1-2 times a week.
So with the new water, you're going to logistically approach the target you set with your remineralization, as with EI.

I would suggest you take out some or all of the cuttlebone for now, as 25 GH is pretty high. Not super insane high, but pretty high. Also, as that should be coming from mostly calcium sources, and you're starting to use filtered water, you might look into a more controlled GH source, or supplementing magnesium. As far as i know there is no way to independently test CA and MG. You should be shooting for 3-5:1 CA:MG.

Lastly, Excel. Oh, magic Excel. I overdose the crap outta that stuff. 3-5x the suggested dose is perfectly safe. Remember that it breaks down in light and can raise TDS though. It's great for plants and algae (getting rid of it that is).

My guess as to the shrimp deaths is probably the high TDS. It might be molting problems from a lack of magnesium. You can supplement with Epsom salt.

What is your feeding regime like?


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Sorry for the delayed response, the holidays kept me away for a while.

I started doing top-offs and water changes with true RO/DI water from my LFS. It tests 0 on the TDS meter so I know their filters are working properly. 

It's my office tank and we've been on vacation since the 24th. I did a couple 1g water changes with the RO/DI water prior to leaving and the TDS came down as low as 550 from 650. I checked in on the tank a few times over break to top-off and trim plants. Last check-up was Thursday and TDS had climbed back up around 650. I'll be back on my every other day or so partial water change schedule when we get back on Monday. At least until the TDS comes down, then I'll back off to less frequent changes.

I removed the cuttlebone around the 22nd and tested GH/KH a few days later. I don't remember the exact result, but I think GH had come down under 20 and KH was about 3.

When I'm in the office, I feed about 5-7 hikari shrimp cuisine pellets each day.

Even though my TDS remains really high, it has been almost a month since the last shrimp death and still lots of babies in the tank. I'll continue to make small adjustments to the water parameters until they are more ideal.


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## Raith (Jun 27, 2014)

Like you (in the first post), I never successfully kept cherry shrimps, or these "prolific" breeders. There's probably something wrong with the water in central NJ. My water conditions has always been ideal, I even got Seachem Cuprisorb, but no avail. Now, I have mature cherries that are in my water but haven't found any that bred, they're just alive and living in it. I've given up on trying to breed shrimps. Seems like you're doing well now though - good work.


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## Plakatz (Oct 25, 2014)

Looking good...


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## pheo (Nov 28, 2014)

Okay, so from what i've read, you should be shooting for 200-250 ppm TDS. I'm not sure if this is just a target for super sensitive caridinas or rule. I know i have some ghosts and a stray (uncatchable) cherry shrimp in my main collectoritis tank that are doing just fine. I use tap/liquid rock, and the TDS has to be through the roof, as it's sitting at least 30 dGH and 10+ dKH.


So for you tank, 20 dGH and 4-ish dKH would give you 

24 * 17.848 = 428.4 ppm TDS

from the hardness alone. So if you try to should for the low 200-250 TDS, you're going to need to keep diluting. 


If you have juvies and no recent deaths though, i would just keep up what you've got going.

Cheers


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Unfortunately I have to report that I lost another cherry over Monday night. When I found him, the other shrimp were going to town devouring the body. It was in a really tight spot between my driftwood and the side glass. My tweezers were at home and I couldn't get the body without them. By the time my lunch came around, they had eaten him entirely. Nothing left.

My kH is still creeping down slowly. It's currently sitting pretty close to 1 (1 drop makes the water sort of blueish-yellow and 2 makes it turn completely). I'm adding some baking soda into a jug for top-off water to try and slowly raise the kH back up to 4-6. I think this might be why my dwarf sag has recently started melting back suddenly as I've read it requires at least 3 dkH.

I retested my gH and confirmed it is at 18.

TDS tested around 500 yesterday, didn't check today.


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## BlackThumb (Oct 4, 2014)

Well, it's been 8 months since the last update. Still struggling with keeping shrimp.

I've been using only RO/DI for a whole 9 months now. Remineralized with baking soda and equilibrium. TDS sits right around 300-320 between water changes. KH is 3-4 and GH is 7.

What I don't understand: I still have the 2 amanos that I picked up the same time as my first batch of cherries. They live, they thrive - no problems there. I've had 1 juvenile reach adulthood (she's huge). She was berried once before the last cherry companion died, but alas, she dropped those eggs after about 2 weeks. Why are these three fine, but all the others can't handle my tank?

I picked up another 20 (slightly lower grade) juvenile cherries from someone local for a good price. They seemed good for about 1-2 weeks, then suddenly I was finding dead shrimp and the count seemed to decline faster than I was pulling them out. They don't have the split down the back like I used to see with the old batch and the GH was super high so I'm not really sure how they're dying.

Earlier today it looked like I was down to about 4-5 juvies and the big cherry (I call her "Big Momma"). I think I might have to swear off shrimp for good if my luck doesn't turn around


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## Yukiharu (May 3, 2014)

In my experience amanos are bulletproof. I have them in a 5-gallon setup and feed them regularly without doing water changes and they breed constantly. They even saddle while berried.


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