# Problems with a Walstad/Natural Planted Tank??



## Mxx

I just finished Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, am considering trying it next time, and am wondering how well this approach has worked for users in practice? 

If you are using this approach then can you pass on what problems you've had and what you see as being its shortcomings, either aesthetic or technical?

Are your plants getting enough CO2 for dense growth? Are you suffering from algae? Does your PH remain stable? At what percent of http://aqadvisor.com/ stocking density do you stock? At full normal stocking densities can the plants keep up with nitrates and waste products? Does your water become harder over time with higher TDS if you aren't doing water changes and are just topping off? Do you find water circulation beneficial or not in such a tank?
Thanks!


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## nonconductive

my only issues after setting up multiple "walstad" style tanks were tannins & not being able to rearrange easily. some plants do better than others. i have noticed that most of them went through a lull period after about a year, but turned back around after a month of no growth. this is with absolutely no water column dosing. some tanks are completely overstocked with apisto colonies and no problems, even without filters or powerheads, or really any water movement. algae is no different than any other tank. i would say even less than my "techy" tank and definately less than my dosed tanks.


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## Mxx

Thanks, helpful. It sounds as if tannins and other dissolved carbon is supposed to be beneficial for the plants, so did you not want to use carbon to filter it out for that reason? And you say they're not easy to rearrange, is that because the soil underlay makes a mess if you pull anything out? Impressive if you didn't even have water circulation. Did you do water changes even or just top-off?


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## Michael in Texas

I just finished Diana Walstad's book, Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, am considering trying it next time, and am wondering how well this approach has worked for users in practice?

_It has worked extremely well for me._ 

If you are using this approach then can you pass on what problems you've had and what you see as being its shortcomings, either aesthetic or technical?

_Many people think that all Walstad tanks are overgrown and "jungly". This is a misconception--overgrown, jungly tanks are that way because the owners like it, or don't wish to exert themselved to correct it. Walstad method can be used to create any style of aquascape._

_Some of my tanks have developed potasium deficiency over time. I dose potasium to correct it. In my newer tanks, I used mineralized top soil which has a potasium supplement mixed in to prevent this._

Are your plants getting enough CO2 for dense growth?
_Yes._

Are you suffering from algae? 
_No._

Does your PH remain stable?
_Yes, 7.2._

At full normal stocking densities can the plants keep up with nitrates and waste products? 
_Yes._

Does your water become harder over time with higher TDS if you aren't doing water changes and are just topping off?
_I do a 50% water change about once or twice a month, just because it makes me feel better._

_I think good circulation is important in these tanks. My tanks have oversized filters on them, with nothing but lava rock as the filter media. This creates a back-up biofilter if the plants and the biofilm in the tank suffer some problem. The rest of the time, the water flow minimizes the boundary layer around plant leaves, insuring good gas exchange and efficient removal of ammonia._


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## nonconductive

i temporarily use carbon to remove the yellowness if it gets too annoying. but it usually comes back eventually.
yes, you are correct. you have to be very careful uprooting plants with large roots.

mostly top offs. cant really remember the last time i did a water change that wasnt on my 125. let me just say these tanks arent pretty, not that they couldnt be i'm just lazy. but the plants growth is great. (theres a few photos somewhere in my thread)

i think the trickiest part is finding the right amount of light to use so you wont have to dose or use co2.


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## wkndracer

Dirt tanks are (imo) the most stable set up to keep. Adding clay and other supplements setting one up only makes it better. 

Moving heavily rooted plants is the only negative aspect.


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## [email protected]

I would have to agree with everyone here. Not had a problem with tannins since doing my initial 50% wc's every week for the first few weeks though. I still get Co2 and my plants are doing awesome. I used the stock light and placed my tank in front of a double window. I keep my light on from sun-up to sun-down and have not had a problem with algae (or if I have my plecos got to it before I could see it). Params are stable at peak stock density, and plants love it. It is a PITA to move plants around and I have had to clean my filter more regularly. Used to clean it once every other month and now I clean it every other week but is worth it for the low cost and the results it gives. Don't really do any wc's either, just topoffs when it gets really low. I dont really check my params much any more and everything is thriving and I have always had good water movement as I read that it is beneficial in circulating the Co2 and other nutrients. No water movement may work as well, IDK.


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## nonconductive

one thing i dont agree with is the use of biofilters in these tanks. they dont need it, and its just more equipment to waste money on.

my 125 uses 2 xp3 canisters with no biomedia, only mechanical. if the fish werent so big and messy i wouldnt need the mechanical either. i purposely prevent bacteria from colonizing the mechanical media by rinsing them in tapwater frequently.

oh and i think i got lucky on the no water movement. i was inspired by mudboots' 125 on apc awhile back (no water movement at the time) and it works for me as well. you could find his thread over there.


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## Hilde

Walstad is not the only 1 whom has propagated dirt tanks. Thus I prefer to call it NPT. 

I started it because I didn't want to do water changes weekly. After 3 months of no water change I had bad BBA. Now I do water changes monthly. I have also added reptile coconut bark under the dirt for mulch which adds carbon to the dirt. For the tannens added purigan to the filter. Yes I use a filter for without have algae. Canister filter is the best. Try to clean filter monthly with old tank water and treated tap water.


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## nonconductive

No Biological filtration:


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## nonconductive

no dosing, no water movement other than convection.


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## Hilde

nonconductive said:


> No Biological filtration:


Is this the 125 tank that you have a thread on? For I read you are injecting Co2 and have dual filters.


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## nonconductive

yes its not a true NPT. i do dose lightly and use minimal co2/lighting. but there is no biomedia. i battled GDA for awhile, BGA, BBA occasionaly, now GSA. its also more of a recent thing. most of the problems occured when i took someones advice and ran biomedia for a few months.

the filterless tanks have never had visible gda, gsa, bba. (i had a snail with a bba mohawk in one, but that was it. it never spread, and eventually died) only some stuff that looks like a loosley knit sweater that grows in a carpet on the substrate. it almost looks like scraggly moss, but its not. its easly removed, comes out in one big mat.


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## Mxx

So... why isn't every hobbyist running their planted tanks like this? No water changes, dosing, testing required and you end up with beautiful plants, less algae, less maintenance, and a more stable ecosystem than with other methods?? This is rather extraordinary to me that so many report such success, even without water changes, with generous stocking levels, without filtration, and without even circulation in some instances. (Nonconductive - don't tell any cults of discus zealots that you're successfully keeping discus in a tank with no bio-filtration and with no water changes, or they'll call PETA on your ass!)

I'm myself running a trial heavily planted nano tank which I unfortunately didn't use a soil underlay with, which has massive amounts of bio-filtration including denitrication, which is 2X overstocked, has pressurized CO2, which I've done some dosing to, and which I'm not doing any water changes with. Water parameters are stable and good while I was testing though I need to buy test refills now, plants and fish are healthy, although I am now getting a bit of green and black dot algae on the plants and I'm not sure quite why. I expect the generous feedings are generally providing enough nutrients to the tank, though the bacteria perhaps might be consuming the nitrogen faster than the plants can absorb it so when I can test again I may take some filter media out. I should test my light intensity as well, but I suspect it is on the lower side.

I had been reading Tom Barr's Non-CO2 method, which is another generally Natural Planted Tank method, though he does say that adding certain compounds to the substrate, and a little bit of dosing seems to nevertheless help the plants and tanks.

And with an NPT I was expecting to target 40 mm of light, which is within Tom's recommended 30-50 micromoles range, and which I'm presuming is still considered low light and therefore appropriate to an NPT?

And I might prefer to use a little bio-filtration with a denitrifying medium such as Seachem Matrix, in order to allow for higher fish stocking densities than the plants alone can consume the nitrogen from. It might take a little testing and balancing to find out how much bio-medium is necessary to not deplete the nitrates in such a tank. But I'm not sure exactly how or why a bio-filter would be detrimental otherwise?


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## nonconductive

hah i know all about the discus people & i will leave it at that.

probably because its messy, and not all plants do well. theres also a high maintenance beginning period where alot of people get green water. i never did. yellow, yes. green, no. also alot of people like to mess with things daily, so this kind of tank would be boring probably.

its not fool proof though, ive had a tank fail right from the beginning and had to tear it down and restart it. i imagine that could be dissuading.

im sure the plants would do better if i dosed more (or at all), but i dont want to do water changes so i dont.

i have to do water changes on the discus tank ONLY because they are messy and make lots of poop that is unsightly not because they are some fragile wimpy fish that needs special conditions, i'm not living in the 50's. anyways, i havent done one in a month or two or three. you could look in my thread and see the last one. i do occassionaly run carbon.


like mike said, these tanks are pretty dang stable. they can run themselves for the most part.

i think if you used some floaters or emergent plants, you'd probably be ok without the matrix. i use them in all my tanks in some form or another.


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## Mxx

I suppose the green water/high-maintenance beginning period is why Tom and Diana suggest that the Dry Start Method is a good way to kick things off. That by the time the dry start is completed, the soil will be fully mineralized with the ammonia that could trigger green water already converted, the plants well established and rooted and thus prepared for the rigors of getting submersed, and in that way they'll be thus ready to out-compete algae from the start as well. 

Or at least if you boil the soil then that will process the ammonia out as well. Or maybe an established temporary bio-filter could prove helpful to deplete any extra ammonia which is released, in case the plants can't absorb it all. 

What happened with your own 'failed' tank?


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## nonconductive

not sure... nothing would grow. i think the soil was too deep.


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## wkndracer

I've done a pair of tanks, 1.5 to 2" of soil and a 1" cap. (both tanks)
Never tested any NH3/NH4 on my first NPT after the initial cycle and never even saw the cycle on the second so zero chance on the organic content in new soil causing the green water I never saw LOL. 

Also fully submerged I'd wager it takes around a year for the organics to be fully mineralized.

(imo) Floaters and a fully planted NPT with a good cap and soil base, without going bananas on the lighting and your fine. A single smaller sponge equipped power head is my only filtration on 55g NPT's.

Light is the key to avoiding drama imo.
Less can be more


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## Michael in Texas

I keep the biofilters running on my tanks as a back-up in case I do something stupid, or a large fish dies while I'm out of town. But barring accidents, the filters are just there for water movement.

There are several reasons why Walstad and NPTs are not more popular. One is marketing--the equipment and supplies are relatively inexpensive and generic. There isn't much for aquarium supply companies to make money on, so the method is not promoted.

Another reason is that few people understand that to be trouble-free, these tanks must be heavily planted from the start. I believe Walstad defines "heavily planted" as not being able to see more that 25% of the substrate when viewed from above. Many times I see new tanks that are called Walstad or El Natural or NPT or low tech aquaria that have one Amazon sword and and one bunch of egeria as the entire planting. This is done with the hope that "things will grow in". These tanks are almost certainly doomed. It takes a critical mass of healthy, growing plants to make a Walstad tank work.


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## nonconductive

thats a good reason to keep a biofilter. i had a 4" fish die and couldnt find the body for a few days and it totally wreaked havoc. system couldnt handle it.


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## Hilde

Mxx said:


> So... why isn't every hobbyist running their planted tanks like this? No water changes, dosing, testing required and you end up with beautiful plants, less algae, less maintenance, and a more stable ecosystem than with other methods??


Well in this situation plant growth is slow and the colors aren't as vibrant. Co2 injected tanks seem to have more vibrant colors.


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## Mxx

I'm still a bit split between the high-tech and low-tech approach I suppose. Basically I want to prevent algae, and not do water changes, (and it doesn't seem necessary to unless you're doing EI dosing). I don't at all mind doing some water testing, some dosing, using filtration, or using pressurized CO2 though, *IF* it helps achieve my goals and is healthier for my fish and plants. But basically the aim is to nevertheless maintain a natural balance with the water chemistry still. 

I'm happy to use light as the limiting factor, as I wouldn't want to be doing regular pruning anyway. But I'm concerned that my plant growth would eventually deplete the nutrients from a soil substrate faster than my fish and feedings could replenish it if I'm using CO2. And I'm also concerned that if I use bio-filtration and CO2 then that will still lead to more algae than strictly the NPT method. 

If the plants are limited by CO2 they'll nevertheless survive and grow slowly, but it seems that if they are given CO2 but are limited on other nutrients then they may instead die? I am potentially looking at running tubes through the substrate, so that I could replenish and fertilize the substrate directly in order to keep those out of the water column where they'd be accessible to algae though. 

Is it possible then to fine-tune a hybrid approach to better achieve my personal goals?


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## phorty

wkndracer said:


> I've done a pair of tanks, 1.5 to 2" of soil and a 1" cap. (both tanks)


I always wonder, when you guys are measuring the depth of your soil, is that the compacted wet depth or the dirt when it's loose? I'm setting up a 20 long MiracleGrow dirt tank and want to be sure I have the correct amount.


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## Hilde

phorty said:


> I always wonder, when you guys are measuring the depth of your soil, is that the compacted wet depth or the dirt when it's loose?


I rinse mine before so only way to measure it is when it is wet. The end result is to have 3in. so gas doesn't get trapped. This is without rocks. I add sand or cactus soil to help keep it from getting too compact. Are doing the El-natural method that Diane Walted promotes? What are you going to cap it with? I used river sand from landscapers for cheapest I could find. Just $3.


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## Hilde

Mxx said:


> Basically I want to prevent algae, and not do water changes. The aim is to maintain a natural balance with the water chemistry still.


Accomplished with low to medium light and plants that are very easy. Plants that are very easy are most mosses, fern, anubias, Cryptocoryne, and Hygrophila difformis. Just put root tabs around the Crypts and Difformis. Best root tabs are Seachem. Cheapest close to them is Osmocote Vegetable fert made into root tabs. Sewingalot has a thread on how to make root tabs with Osmocote fert.


Mxx said:


> I'm concerned that my plant growth would eventually deplete the nutrients from a soil substrate faster than my fish and feedings could replenish it if I'm using CO2.


Don't know. Good question. I don't want to fool with Co2 for the DIY with yeast smelled like a brewery and don't want to invest in pressurized Co2 system.


Mxx said:


> If the plants are limited by CO2 they'll nevertheless survive and grow slowly, but it seems that if they are given CO2 but are limited on other nutrients then they may instead die?


mizu-chan had low light and DIY Co2 over a 20G long tank. She didn't dose and had great plant growth. From what I have seen exces Co2 only hurts the fish.

You are really thinking this through. Wish I had. I am impulsive and thus bought plants that were cheap. Result was I lost plants and spent to much on light system.


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## wkndracer

phorty said:


> I always wonder, when you guys are measuring the depth of your soil, is that the compacted wet depth or the dirt when it's loose? I'm setting up a 20 long MiracleGrow dirt tank and want to be sure I have the correct amount.


Dry in the tank I place the palm of my hand on it pressing down with firm (but not crazy) pressure.
HTH


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## phorty

wkndracer said:


> Dry in the tank I place the palm of my hand on it pressing down with firm (but not crazy) pressure.
> HTH


Thanks! I think I'll try 2" of dirt and 1" of pool filter sand.

Dumb question #2, I shouldn't rinse the dirt first should I? I've been sifting it to remove the wood pieces but didn't think I should rinse it.


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## wkndracer

no rinse going in my tanks.


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## Hilde

phorty said:


> I shouldn't rinse the dirt first should I? I've been sifting it to remove the wood pieces but didn't think I should rinse it.


Easiest to sift wood pieces out when it is dry and then rinse it. Read good to rinse it to remove any pesticides that may be in it.


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## nonconductive

i left alot of the wood in because as it breaks down it becomes a long term source for plant food. just lots of tannins. i also didnt wet or rinse.


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## kamikazi

I only removed large pieces of wood by shifting the dirt around on a piece of cardboard and picking out the big ones. I didn't wet or rinse either, just used my hand to lightly compact it as wkndracer stated.


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