# Whats happening to my Alternanthera reineckii?



## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

I wanted to try some red plants in my high tech 75 gallon tank but obviously I am having some problems! I see leaf melt (see photos) and fighting bba. Not sure what I am doing wrong!

Here are my specs:
75 gallon, running for two months
Ecocomplete substrate
Eheim 2217 with one Hydor powerhead
Finnex Monster and Finnext Ray 2, 3hrs + 4 hrs so 7 hrs total per day
Pressurized CO2 with pH controller set at 6.8 (normal pH is 7.4)
Ammonia =0, nitrate =0, nitrite =0
Dry ferts: 1 tsp K2SO4 (3 times a week), 1 tsp GH booster (once a week), 7 mL Flourish Iron (6 days a week), 7 mL Flourish Comprehensive (once a week). Just put in about 6 Seachem root tabs around the Blyxa japonica, S. repens, E. tenellus.
My strip test says KH is pretty high.
Moderately planted - jungle vals, nano vals, nesea, rotala, blyxa japonia, s. repens, a. reineckii mini, a. reineckii, e. tenellus, 
Fish: 5 plecos (3-4"), 6 rams, about 10 other assorted fish.
I squirt 10-30mL Excel daily on the bba to keep it under control. It's devastating my gold nesea!

Help!


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## HybridHerp (May 24, 2012)

How long have you had the reineckii? My mini just did this, but I'm confident the plant will recover fine.

I want to say, if the plant is new-ish, that it might just be the plants old leafs dying. If the stem itself is still firm and there is new growth I think it should be fine in time.

But get that BBA in check, that stuff sucks and I'm fighting it in my 75 too T_T


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

The top photo of the mini - had that about three weeks. The other two photos are from plants I have had for over a month. I am hoping it is just a transition period because it makes me sad to see this happen when I thought I had done everything right. 

About the bba - I am stumped. I have read for hours on this forum and I figured that a pH controller was the way to ensure "consistent" co2 levels. I am struggling, "excel-ing" and on the verge of ripping out the gold nesea and dumping some peroxide on it along with a good trim. Maybe my co2 is not at the optimal level?


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

I thought maybe it was just old leaves making a transition - but I think some of my newer leaves (from last month) are also affected.

Could this be a potassium deficiency? I do dose 1 tsp K2SO4 three times a week.


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Maybe an expert will come along & tell you whats wrong. The one thing that stood out to me in your post is your Nitrate reading of ZERO. I also didn't see mention that you are dosing any N03 other than what's in the root tabs & the little that might be in the Comprehensive which may not be enough. Maybe that is the problem ????


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## chunkychun (Apr 6, 2012)

Agree with sownreap. Nitrate and phosphate needs to be dosed. Root tabs for the a. reneckii and others as well will help


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

> Ammonia =0, nitrate =0, nitrite =0


This is likely exactly the problem. Eco-complete is basically 100% inert and should be thought of as providing no nutrients to your plants. Flourish Comprehensive is also extremely dilute and you'd likely need to overdose it by quite a lot every week in order to supply enough nitrogen. Your best bet is to order some KNO3 from an online store, ebay or http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/index.asp?Option1=cats&Edit=2&EditU=1&Regit=2

The first photo the holes are probably from nerite snails, potassium deficiency holes have yellow chlorotic boarders and are generally not jagged holes with sharp edges.

The second photo shows a really good example of nitrogen deficiency symptoms. Notice how the tips of older leaves are starting to turn clear and die back? That is exactly the place nitrogen deficiency symptoms start. The leaf will die back tip towards stem on old leaves. When the deficiency becomes severe new leaves will grow out progressively smaller until the plant stops growing entirely. Some species may also show twisted new growth as well as progressively smaller leaves.

Have a look at other nitrogen deficiency symptoms in the database:
http://deficiencyfinder.com/

In particular look at the Rotala macrandra entries, there are some pretty good photos of classic nitrogen deficiency in those two links.

To solve this problem you'll need to start dosing KNO3 (potassium nitrate), try keep the concentration between 15-25 ppm at any given point.

I'd like to confirm that nitrogen deficiency is the problem, so add the nitrates then in a week take some more photos and see if the old leaf damage has stopped (already damaged leaves will not heal, but no more leaves should die). 

Can you take a few more photos of the plants? New growth and old growth? 

Are any other plants in your tank showing problems or just these?


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Zapins said:


> {snipped}
> Have a look at other nitrogen deficiency symptoms in the database:
> http://deficiencyfinder.com/


@Zapins, When I read the OPs Nitrate reading & then went to your site, I thought it looked (& read) like Nitrogen deficiency but since I'm nowhere near an expert I thought it best to point out lack of Nitrates & let someone with more knowledge confirm the problem. 

Maybe you can get permission to post those photos on your http://deficiencyfinder.com/ page. Additional photos can always be useful. The OPs 2nd photo is a really a good example I think.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

sowNreap said:


> @Zapins, When I read the OPs Nitrate reading & then went to your site, I thought it looked (& read) like Nitrogen deficiency but since I'm nowhere near an expert I thought it best to point out lack of Nitrates & let someone with more knowledge confirm the problem.


Thanks for letting me know that, it makes me happy to hear that my site is helpful in guiding people towards the right problem. I'm glad you were able to use it as intended  



sowNreap said:


> Maybe you can get permission to post those photos on your http://deficiencyfinder.com/ page. Additional photos can always be useful. The OPs 2nd photo is a really a good example I think.


I was thinking about that. I'm always looking for new photos of each deficiency even if I already have a few pictures of a given plant species, more photos are always helpful.

I'd like to confirm that it is nitrogen deficiency before uploading them though, so in a week or so if the symptoms go away or don't progress then we'll be relatively sure it was nitrogen problems. That is also why I asked the OP if he/she doesn't mind taking more photos right now of the plant (new and old growth) and other species in the tank so we can get a few really nice ones for the deficiency finder


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## sowNreap (Jun 10, 2012)

Yeah I guess it would be better to confirm that is the problem first. LOL I was getting the "cart before the horse".


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

Hi Zapins

Thanks for weighing in on this. It is so sad to see my leaves starting to disintegrate.

I already have a pound of KNO3 that I bought a year ago but never saw anything that looked like a nitrogen deficiency so I never dosed it. That was back when my plants were in a different tank with different substrate.

I will start dosing KNO3 after I figure out how much (I will check the fertilizer calculators). I will also take some additional photos of old and new leaves. I see the issue occurring on "newer" leaves too that have formed since moving to this 75 gallon tank with ecocomplete.

I see others in this forum posting nitrate readings of 0. I figured this was normal - boy was I wrong!

I'll feed more cucumbers and hopefully keep the nerites off my plant leaves. I'll update this in a few weeks.

BTW - nice database! I looked at it the other day and unfortunately I was looking at all the photos trying to figure out the deficiency. Maybe not the right way to use the database. I probably should have first figured out what I was NOT dosing, and see if that was a potential deficiency then look at the photos.


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

Here are more photos of old and new leaves. Geez this plant is looking terrible.

I can't say I see the new leaf growth being stunted, but regardless, I dosed 1 tsp of KNO3 tonight in the 75 gallon tank. I'll use my API test and take a reading during the week and dose another 2 times during the week.

You asked about my other plants. My jungle vals and nano vals look fine. Gold nesea sometimes has new leaves that look rather small and grow slow - might be nitrogen deficiency showing up and I just never figured it out. It also has a bad case of BBA for some reason (maybe because the growth is so slow?). Tiger lotus, S. repens, B. japonica looks ok but not great. Everything is growing slower than they did in my old tank. Maybe nitrogen is the answer. 

I will post more photos in another week or two. I'll take a bunch tonight (time 0) and use it as a comparison.

Thank you again.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Sounds good. Slow growth can also be due to no nitrogen. I don't see damaged new growth? The top 3-4 leaves look OK from what I can see. 

Will wait and see how things turn out. If it is nitrogen deficiency you've caught it pretty early, before it becomes moderately severe.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

My sediment is pretty rich ADA Aqua soil, a bit aged now, so little N.
I typically dose 2x a week, 15 ppm of NO3 as KNO3.

But let's get real here, this is a new plant that's still adapting, they can take some time to settle, but once they do, they look nice:




I do not uproot or move them around.
I'll top and pinch the ratty lower leaves, then nice new healthy growth fills in.
The plant requires good CO2. 
Otherwise you get crinkly leaves and tips. 
It does pretty good in non CO2 tanks with moderately low light if you just leave them alone for a few months, they will adapt. 


Low NO3=> you will get holes in the older leaves. I left for a few days, the NO3 dropped, the K+ and the other ferts other than the traces, were fairly high, dosed heavy, but I forgot to dose enough KNO3. GH booster and the PO4 has K+ as well, and you need roughly 4X more NO3 to each K+ used by weight for KNO3 before limitations can occur.

Most of the other plants I have were not effected. 
This was a milder N deficiency and at high light but only for maybe a couple of days.


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## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> ...
> 
> Most of the other plants I have were not effected.
> This was a milder N deficiency and at high light but only for maybe a couple of days.


Im wondering if this happened to me as well. My leaves were turning pink and then just withering away while all my other plants seemed fine. That week I didnt dose alot of macros either.


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

WOW. Now I know what the perfect AR mini looks like! I like the red "hedge" look. Almost like a perfectly manicured formal garden!

I think the part that threw me for a loop was the (bad) assumption that my fish load (after all I have five small plecos plus others) and fish food would supply all the N needed for every plant in the tank. I did not take into account that my tank is only two months old and I was using a very inert substrate (ecocomplete). AND I read previous postings where others state "nitrate = 0" and assumed that was good and meant the macros were just fine and just happened to be used up quickly by growing plants.

I learned a lot. Hopefully this helps others. I'll post an "after" picture in a few weeks after dosing dry NO3.

Thanks to all for your help.


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## jargonchipmunk (Dec 8, 2008)

Set a calendar reminder to repost a pic in a month. I hate when things like this leave me hanging. (MUST HAVE CLOSURE lol)


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

You won't need a month. 1-2 weeks tops to know if its working or not.


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

Done! I put a note in Outlook for a report out in two weeks!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Zapins said:


> You won't need a month. 1-2 weeks tops to know if its working or not.


+1, maybe even 2-3 days for some plants, but 1-2 weeks max for this one.

As new growth comes in, be careful to nip off those ugly older leaves. The plant will become much more bushy. I do this like cleaning a hedge/Bonsai tree of old dead leaves, takes a little bit of time, not critical to do EVERYTHING asap etc, just pick at it. the new growth looks excellent after the recovery. An algae covered leaf, a crinkled twisted leaf etc, that's never going to recover or look nice, trim it and cut cut cut. 

Something like Rotala Wallichi, uproot and cut off the ratty bottom and replant the tops. 

Under lower lighting, A reineckii does pretty well with plain sand and rich water column ferts, but I have to say most will have the best results with clay based soils and topping, not uprooting. I've tried few methods for a few years, this one seems to work the best. Preening/trimming leaves post issues/stunting/algae is a critical horticultural element to restore the nice looking group. 

Ferts/CO2/light are part of it for recovery also, but doing both will take some messed up nasty stunted sorry looking A. reineckii and make them into the pic I post.


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## stratg5 (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm a noob but dont a lot of plants melt when transferred to a new tank? One cause is if the plants were emersed and then submerged it shocks them and they will melt, but there are other causes as well such as change in water conditions. It's probably adjusting to your tank, let the leaves melt and they should grow back if cryptocorynes are any indicator.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Melting is not normal for most plants. Certain species sometimes melt when put in drastically different conditions, crypts do this sometimes, this is a species specific reaction. You mentioned emersed growth melting, yes sometimes this happens too, particularly with sword plants. However, if the new plants are submersed grown then melting is very unlikely and usually only happywbs when the new tank is not set up for ideal growth. In other words it is missing something. If submersed plants are put into a tank with enough lighting and ferts, temperature, etc you should never see melting.


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

Hello! My Outlook calendar reminded me to provide an update on A. reineckii. It's been about two weeks since the original post.

Sorry to say, the plants don't look all that much better. I trimmed off most of the leaves with damage and of course what remains looks terrible. I see some growth, not much, at the top of the stalks. Overall I'd say the plants have not grown much and what is there does not look a ton better.

What I did change during the two weeks:
Add Seachem root tabs all around the tank, including two under A. reineckii (there are about 5 plants)
Dose KNO3 so it's been 5-20ppm nitrates (according to API test kit)
Dose KH2PO4 so about 1-3ppm phosphates (according to Red Sea test kit). My tap water is about 0.6 ppm.

Just to recap my tank conditions: 75 gal that is 3 months old, pressurized CO2 with pH controller set at 6.7 (air stone goes on when lights are off), Finnex Monster + Finnex Ray 2 on 7 hrs per day, ecocomplete, medium stocked with plants and fish, GH booster 1 tsp/week, Flourish Comprehensive 7 mL/week, Flourish Iron 5 mL at 6x per week, K2SO4 1 tsp 3x per week, temp 76 degrees. 

OH. And I was adding about 30 mL of Excel daily to keep BBA in check. I've done this for about 1.5 weeks.

So here's my conclusion - I don't think it was nitrate deficiency as I don't see any change in the new growth, and my new growth before was never really stunted. I think, however, my other plants in the tank look better all around now that I am dosing nitrates. I am wondering if Excel is causing my problem? I actually found a stalk that had melted away. Out of concern about using too much Excel, a few days ago I went down to 10 mL Excel per day which is enough for me to spot treat BBA.

I am out of ideas. I am about ready to ditch these plants and grow something else.

P.S. The A. reineckii 'mini' is doing well. I don't have a photo of those but I did just hedge some back and replant the trimmings. I don't have problems with those at all - very odd.

AGAIN - Thanks all! Appreciate the advice and support.


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## new Scaper (May 18, 2015)

Hi guys. I'd just like to add that my AR are looking just like the pics Fujiija posted. They used to be doing great. Nice and red and I even had to trim them a few times, probably that way for about the last 5-6 months. Now they look like his. The only thing I have done different is that I recently started dosing Excel in that tank. Think there could be a relationship there ?


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