# Before I spend dollar one...



## ddavidv (Jan 16, 2017)

Total noob here. I've been reading a whole lot but at some point all the information begins to confuse instead of enlighten. I think I may be better off just stating my desires and having the more experienced point me in the right direction and I can hopefully avoid some costly mistakes.

I am leaning toward a 10 gal tank. I want fish but am unclear if a betta, a school (or two) of small fish or a combination would be the most reasonable and/or visually entertaining. I imagine deciding on this may determine the rest.

This will be a low tech, uber-low maintenance endeavor. Slow plant growth is fine. I'd like LED lighting if possible. In reading about substrate dirt seems to be debated and more troublesome so gravel? 

I'm confused if MORE or LESS plants are better for combating algae growth, maintenance (other than pruning) and fish.

Our tap water is well water that is hard but is processed by a softener. Any concerns?

Preferred number of shrimp or snails to do cleanup work in a 10 gal?

As for plants I am about as clueless as they come. I like the 'grassy' look to some degree, less excited about plants that are vine-like. Plant a lot right away or add over time?

I'm excited the pull the trigger and bring home a pile of goodies but don't want to buy things that will be wrong or undesirable. Appreciate all responses!


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## Tbonedawg08 (Apr 11, 2016)

ddavidv said:


> Total noob here. I've been reading a whole lot but at some point all the information begins to confuse instead of enlighten. I think I may be better off just stating my desires and having the more experienced point me in the right direction and I can hopefully avoid some costly mistakes.
> 
> I am leaning toward a 10 gal tank. I want fish but am unclear if a betta, a school (or two) of small fish or a combination would be the most reasonable and/or visually entertaining. I imagine deciding on this may determine the rest.
> 
> ...


I've got a couple points that may help...

As far as dirt vs gravel...if you are going with the least amount of maintenance possible, I'd suggest dirt. This is because, with gravel, you'll need to fertilize periodically. With dirt you probably won't for a long time.

More plants equal less algae. This is without a doubt since plants and algae both compete for the same nutrients.

You'll probably end up with snails by accident (hitchhikers on the plants), but if you don't, it would be a pretty good idea to grab a couple. Whichever breed you like the best, but Malaysian Trumpet Snails (MTS) seem to be favored.

I do suggest grabbing some Red Cherry Shrimp. Maybe a half dozen, however some fish will eat them. I have a Betta in a community tank and, to my knowledge, he doesn't eat my shrimp but some do so be aware.

Look up dwarf sag grass. That's what's on the bottom of my tank and it looks just like grass once it fills it.

My best suggestion is to add from the bottom of the food chain up. Example, start with plants. Then after a couple weeks, add the snails and shrimp. I'd let the snails and shrimp live alone until they start to reproduce before I add any fish.

Check out my tank. It's much bigger than what you're looking at, but it's about as low maintenance as it gets.

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## Freemananana (Jan 2, 2015)

ddavidv said:


> Total noob here.


First off, welcome! It's fine to start a thread and get some questions out of the way. I'll start by saying you'll get many different opinions and these are just mine.



ddavidv said:


> I've been reading a whole lot but at some point all the information begins to confuse instead of enlighten. I think I may be better off just stating my desires and having the more experienced point me in the right direction and I can hopefully avoid some costly mistakes.


I think we have all been there before. There is a lot of opinions on what the 'best' thing to do is and it isn't always aimed at the beginner. "Do it right or do it twice." 



ddavidv said:


> I am leaning toward a 10 gal tank. I want fish but am unclear if a betta, a school (or two) of small fish or a combination would be the most reasonable and/or visually entertaining. I imagine deciding on this may determine the rest.


A 10 gallon tank is extremely small, smaller than what I would suggest. I'm pretty fond of the 20g if you want to keep schooling fish. Schooling fish prefer larger numbers and that will drive the size of the tank up, even higher if you want low maintenance. A betta fish is a great fish if you want to keep it alone. Decide what you want to stock first, before you buy a tank. Most people over stock tanks and find they aren't doing enough water changes and get poor water conditions because of it.



ddavidv said:


> This will be a low tech, uber-low maintenance endeavor. Slow plant growth is fine.


Uber low maintenance? You're success will ride on fast growing plants (wisteria, water sprite, floating plants, etc) that do well in low light in order to keep nitrates low. 



ddavidv said:


> I'd like LED lighting if possible.


LED is the most suggested type of light around. There are plenty of choices, but one that dims or a low powered option are best for a low tech tank.



ddavidv said:


> In reading about substrate dirt seems to be debated and more troublesome so gravel?


Dirt isn't what I'd suggest for a beginner. I'd go with sand. It's inert and easy to plant; more so than gravel. Blasting sand and pool filter sand are common options. 



ddavidv said:


> I'm confused if MORE or LESS plants are better for combating algae growth, maintenance (other than pruning) and fish.


More plants is the key. Out compete algae and keep nitrates in check. 



ddavidv said:


> Our tap water is well water that is hard but is processed by a softener. Any concerns?


Not really a concern. Most fish adapt as well as plants. 



ddavidv said:


> Preferred number of shrimp or snails to do cleanup work in a 10 gal?


If you go with a betta fish, I wouldn't keep shrimp. I do like snails though. If you keep your stocking down and plant mass up, you won't really need a clean up crew. That's up to you. If you have micro schooling fish, you can keep shrimp. I think neon tetras are about as big as you can go before the shrimp will disappear. Rummynose tetra may be small enough to keep with shrimp. Someone else will have to chime in. I think shrimp are interesting enough to make a tank themselves. 



ddavidv said:


> As for plants I am about as clueless as they come. I like the 'grassy' look to some degree, less excited about plants that are vine-like. Plant a lot right away or add over time?


Plant a lot and let them fill the tank is my method. Grassy as in the infamous 'carpet' plant or grassy like your front yard? Carpet plants generally prefer high light, CO2 and more maintenance and I don't think that's what you are looking for.



ddavidv said:


> I'm excited the pull the trigger and bring home a pile of goodies but don't want to buy things that will be wrong or undesirable. Appreciate all responses!


Try looking at some of the nano tanks and the low tech tank subforum. Use those to pull ideas from and see what you can accomplish that way. If you find pictures of your goal, it is easier to point you in the right direction.


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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Depending on the type the water softener could be a concern. A lot of them replace calcium and magnesium with sodium, which is obviously not good for a freshwater tank.


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## Tbonedawg08 (Apr 11, 2016)

Another suggestion for "Uber low maintenance"...

The smaller the tank, the faster it gets dirty. The more water you have, the longer you can go without changing the water.

My 75g has never had an actual water change and i've had it for about a year now. There's a lot of factors that allow for that, but probably the biggest one is it's size. Anything smaller and I doubt I'd have the patience to find that balance

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## Axelrodi202 (Jul 29, 2008)

Also for shrimp, anywhere up to 1 amano shrimp per gallon is good.


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## aquaBender (Aug 18, 2016)

I have three dirted 10 gallons and I really enjoy Endler Guppies, they are very small so you can have a nice school, they eat algae off my plants, and they are super peaceful if you want any other fish.


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## KwhyLE (Nov 9, 2014)

Most important, have a lot of patience. Low tech setups usually have less noticeable growth. You will probably have more maintenance than say a 20 gal, but it should not be a problem since its only 10 gal. You will learn a lot with a 10 gal. If you have any other questions, just keep reading and watching a couple youtube vids on setting up a tank. There will be different opinions and techniques and you will find what works well for you. Just keep researching while you get all your equipment and start your cycle. Then you can get the fish you choose.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Just as others have said, you’re going to get a lot of differing opinions on almost everything in this hobby, so don’t let that discourage you! That’s almost the beauty of the whole thing; you don’t need to treat it like an exact science. Instead, treat it as a learning experience and you get to grow as a hobbyist with your plants (cue the heartwarming music).

With that said, I’ll echo what some others have said already. First, the smaller your tank, the more difficult it can be. When you have a smaller volume of water, it takes less **thing** to change the overall percentage of said **thing**. My experience has always been small tank = less $, more work, while big tank = more $, less work.

To answer your questions one at a time:



ddavidv said:


> I want fish but am unclear if a betta, a school (or two) of small fish or a combination would be the most reasonable and/or visually entertaining. I imagine deciding on this may determine the rest.


The size of your tank really determines what you can keep. If you do indeed plan on staying with the 10G, you’re going to want to stick to nano fish. Personally, I like Green Neon’s, Dwarf Hatchetfish, Endler’s Livebearers, and White Cloud minnows. In a small tank, you would be best getting only 1 species. You could probably get away with 6-8 of any of those fish and be safe.



ddavidv said:


> This will be a low tech, uber-low maintenance endeavor. Slow plant growth is fine.


Look into ferns, mosses, Anubias, and Buce. These can all survive in low light, low tech tanks.



ddavidv said:


> I'd like LED lighting if possible.


No problems with LED lighting. The majority of new lighting today will be LED.



ddavidv said:


> In reading about substrate dirt seems to be debated and more troublesome so gravel?


For an experienced owner, dirted tanks can provide very, very low maintenance. For newcomers, I would shy away from a dirted tank. This is because if (when?) things go south in a dirted tank, they can REALLY go south. I would recommend pool filter sand or black diamond blasting media, using root tabs for fertilization.



ddavidv said:


> I'm confused if MORE or LESS plants are better for combating algae growth, maintenance (other than pruning) and fish.


More plants = less algae. The plants will absorb nutrients out of the water column faster than the algae will.



ddavidv said:


> Our tap water is well water that is hard but is processed by a softener. Any concerns?


Not particularly, but it’s not the best either. Your best bet would be to use water from before the softener. A lot of homes with a well have a “T” before the softener for various different reasons.



ddavidv said:


> Preferred number of shrimp or snails to do cleanup work in a 10 gal?


Again, going to try to push you to a 20+ tank, but I would go with 10 or so Amano shrimp and 5 or 6 Nerite snails. Some people will recommend Malaysian Trumpet Snails, but keep in mind that they can breed rapidly and become a pest.



ddavidv said:


> As for plants I am about as clueless as they come. I like the 'grassy' look to some degree, less excited about plants that are vine-like. Plant a lot right away or add over time?


You can plant a really beautiful moss carpet. Riccia also can look really good. For midground plants, you can go with various ferns and Anubias. For the background, swords and crypts will work. There really is a lot to work with when it comes to low tech tanks, but just try to remember what your goals are. If you suddenly decide that you really *need* a dwarf hairgrass carpet, remember that you’ll also need higher light. With higher light, you’ll need some form of CO2 and some more fertilization.


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## ddavidv (Jan 16, 2017)

Wow, tremendous responses. Thank you everyone.

Well...I'm not married to the 10 gallon concept. True nano tanks look too small to me. I read a few things here and there where someone had a 10 gal and made it look and work well so I picked that as a default. I actually had considered a 20g prior to that but assumed it would be perhaps too much maintenance...but the opposite is apparently true. I like the point about the larger the ecosystem the less small changes will drastically affect it.

I like the word 'carpet' versus 'grass'. I'll pull a few random internet photos to depict what I like and what I don't. Comments are below the pics.








This is sort of nice, although a little 'open', but I do like the ground cover.








Very attractive, but may be a bit 'full'?








This is not for me. I don't care for the large 'land mass'.








No 'lawn' but I also favor this look.

I do like the beauty of the betta fish (and the size) but would favor multiple fish or varieties over a single. I know bettas can sometimes live with other fish but it generally is best not to mix them, right?

Is there a recommended starter 'kit' for either size I should be looking at?
I have a pretty well stocked aquarium store close by but it is a bit intimidating to go into without some base knowledge.


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## Tbonedawg08 (Apr 11, 2016)

ddavidv said:


> I do like the beauty of the betta fish (and the size) but would favor multiple fish or varieties over a single. I know bettas can sometimes live with other fish but it generally is best not to mix them, right?


That's gonna get you mixed responses lol. My tank hosts a male betta, 4 other breeds of fish, 3 breeds of snail and 2 breeds of shrimp. Apparently sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I'd suggest against mixing unless the Betta has places to hide and space to be alone

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## fishman922 (Oct 26, 2016)

Having had a community betta my advice would be try it but have a good backup plan for the betta. My first betta did well until he got really injured due to getting stuck behind a decoration and tore half his scales off and in process damaged his swim bladder. (He was quarantined for 3 weeks before the scales came back. Somehow he didn't get infected.) From there it was off and on, mainly because of the long lasting swim bladder issues. Some days he was fine, and others all he could do was flop sideways. I would quarantine/isolate him in a small aquarium when he had trouble get him healthy but inevitably the community tank would bring it back. (Eventually I gave up and he got a tank by himself with a very very light filter and a shelf to sit on for the rest of his life ~1.5 yrs, total of 3yrs)

My current betta lives by himself, and I have never put him around other fish, though he did live with ghost shrimp who slowly disappeared (But the ghost shrimp were feeders and might have died before he ate them).

Personally I really like my Marineland 38Gallon bowfront starter. Decent filter (Penguin 200), heater, the light is pretty bad (I replaced it with a Fluval Fresh and Planted 2.0 LED 24-34" version, WOULD HIGHLY RECCOMEND).


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

My Betta is in a 7.5g cube with 3 glo-light tetras, a neon, and 3 pros for almost a year. A long-term temporary situation. Totally depends on the Bettas. I have found that on my limited experience, a Betta than is a good swimmer and can handle some flow have a better chance at accepting tank mates. Less stress on the Betta trying to keep up with flow and and a little current can help keep the Betta in check if he can handle it well.

Also, there isn't a plant in the world that will rid algae just by being in your tank. Owner maintenance and proper plant choices/arrangement is key to a successful tank regardless the amount necessary.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

I know you have a lot of answers to sort through but, i want to share mine with you as well.

Get a bigger tank than you think you need. It is better for the overall health of your fish to have to have more space. I love the 29g as a first tank. Its larger enough to keep a school of fish. Its tall enough to comfortably keep bottom dweeling, mid level and top level fish. (Most fish require 20g or larger tanks to be healthy)

The tank size is small enough that equipment is still relatively cheap.

For substrate you will be so much happier with your tank if you buy one of the planted tank substrates like eco complete or aquaflora. Ignore peoples reviews as most of us are comparing them based on previous experience with other substrates. Buy what you like it, and you will be happy.

Honestly leds are great, but t5 is a great place to start for a beginner. They fully capable of growing healthy plants, cheaper than leds and simpler to run.

At some point you just have to jump in and start. 

No one buys their first tank everything goes perfect. All the research and debate you have done is great, but you will learn so much by jumping in. 

Just please start with a tank larger than 10g. Really look at the 29g tank.

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## SloMo (Jan 31, 2017)

I am currently cycling a 20g and am finalizing a decision on a light. I do not want to dose co2 and keep it low tech. I am looking at the Fluval 2.o Fresh and Plant and the Finnex 24/7. I guess my concern is too much light may cause algae (maybe not after I have good plant growth) and force me to dose co2. Thoughts? Hopefully this also helps the OP in his decision making as well.


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## AnthonyW8822 (Feb 15, 2014)

This may sound really stupid and obvious, but anytime you're adding or removing anything from the tank, PUT A TOWEL AROUND THE BASE!!!

As a fellow beginner with many failures already, I'm just going to make a list of the stupid things I've done - starting with the worst possible thing.

#1. DO NOT IMPULSE BUY!!! I don't care if that means you walk into the fish room and pace in circles for 3 hours before you decide what you're actually going to buy - spend time, save money, save fish, save headache.

#2. DO NOT take fish room employees at their word. They sold me dwarf hairgrass as a low light plant once.

#3. Don't design a tank then pick the fish. That'll just leave you with either a fish you don't like or a tank the fish doesn't like. I did this like 4 times and ended up with dead fish twice.

#4. This may sound really stupid, but don't tap on the glass/side of the tank. Unless you legitimately think it might be dead.

#5. Whatever you do, have some sort of quarantine system ready to go. Or, make friends with the local fish room owner and if you need to temporarily house a fish they might let you board it there. Worked for my salamanders.

#6. Don't go cheap on the extra equipment. Good deal on a tank? Sweet. Awesome fish at a too good to be true price? Amazing. Found a filter on craigslist (that you properly clean) for 1/3 what it would cost otherwise? That's awesome. What adds up is the stuff like testing equipment, thermometers, gravel vacs (although with a nano that might be a nonissue), quality rocks and wood, and necessary chemicals.

#7. Make a budget. Always make a budget. Then double it. That's what you're actually going to spend.

#8. Keep all your fish stuff in the same spot. I have multiples of almost everything just because I can't find it so I go buy a new one.

#9. Keep a feeding schedule. Overfeeding, in my experience, kills faster than under feeding. Can't remember if you fed? It's better for them to skip a meal than eat twice. All of that can be solved with a schedule in your phone.

#10. Keep the essential repair and quick fix tools on hand. Always have some extra tubing, piping, fittings, duct tape (seriously, its magical stuff and you never know what you'll use it for), some string, plant weights (great for keeping anything in place, like the bubbler in my nano - and they're usually free if you ask for them), and fish safe caulk. Oh, and go buy a big screen top for like a 40 breeder even if you don't have one. Makes a great quick fix for an escape problem, can be used for aquascaping (split small diameter tubing and run it along the edges to prevent fish injury), and - like what I'm doing tomorrow - can also be used to create a custom top for a weird shaped tank or one that needs chords running into it.

That's my top 10 list of things to do/not do, and I'm still learning hardcore.

Also, with tanks being highly unique and everyone having their own ideas, don't be afraid to build something yourself if you can't buy it. I'm about to make a filter that takes up 1 cubic inch in the nano.


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## Tbonedawg08 (Apr 11, 2016)

SloMo said:


> I am currently cycling a 20g and am finalizing a decision on a light. I do not want to dose co2 and keep it low tech. I am looking at the Fluval 2.o Fresh and Plant and the Finnex 24/7. I guess my concern is too much light may cause algae (maybe not after I have good plant growth) and force me to dose co2. Thoughts? Hopefully this also helps the OP in his decision making as well.


Metricide/Excel maybe keep algae at bay and increase plant growth. That's all I use, but my lighting is medium-low

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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I would push up to a 12.5 to 15 gal tank. I really find it much easier keeping good water parameters with the slightly larger sizes than 10s.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

If you are really married to the idea of a 10 gallon tank I'd probably concentrate on under stocking with fish and setting it up with decent amounts of plant volume and good quality filters, lights and heaters.

Best quality doesn't mean overtly expensive, you can pick up a new AquaClear 20 HOB filter for about $25~$35. Similar heaters in 50 watt power levels like the Hagen and Ehiem are decent, about $20 to $40.

Try to get plants and fish that have been raised or kept in similar ( local) water so they don't go through a adjustment period. Don't skimp on the volume of plants, Java Fern and Moss, Water Sprite, especially if you can get Ceratoptosis Cornuta or Oakleaf Water Sprite, which are great beginner plants. I'd be looking at not so much trying to emulate the pretty tanks here in TPT, as much as getting your experience base started with a healthy, initial growth of plants. They don't all need to be rooted forests of stems or carpeted covers of Baby Tears, leave that for when you get better at growing the easy plants.


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