# Looking for startup advice



## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

First off, HI! and welcome to the forum. There are a few things you should probably look into before starting your first tank. Your spot you suggested is likely a bad idea. Most dresser arent capable of holding the weight of a 20L. Water is roughly 8 lbs. per gallon plus substrate (gravel). You dont want the top of your dresser bowing over time and putting stress in the seams of your new glass box. Its a mess to clean up and will ruin your dresser and possibly your clothes. Look for a suitable stand. Next, water changes are necessary. When water evaporates, the minerals dont and will create and unsuitable environment of water that is too hard to grow plants in. I would say once monthly 50% water changes are the bare minimum. As far as shrimp, they are a great addition to a planted tank. You should probably try keeping them by themselves to see if you can get them to grow before stressing them out with the presence of fish. Fish like to eat them and you have very few choices of fish that are compatible with an established colony of shrimp. Even then, they will likely eat most of the babies unless you provide LOTS of plant cover or moss for them to hide in. Im not saying that it cant be done, but there are a few rules of thumb or you will be wasting your hard earned money. I suggest browsing the forum and doing some research into the things you are looking to keep. Knowledge is key to success in this hobby and you will quickly run out of or waste your money/plants/animals if you dont meet their basic needs. Look around the forum at other peoples successes and dont be afraid to ask questions. there are PLENTY of people on here who are willing to help you along your journey. Again, welcome to the forum and of course, welcome to the hobby. Enjoy!!!


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

I have a 20 long in my bedroom with a penguin 100 filter a 100 watt aqueon heater, and 20 watts of lighitng. 
As for no waterchanges that is just not a reality. I have to do waterchanges on my most heavily planted tanks. It somply doesnt matter where you put it or how much you filter it. You could do 500 gallons per hour or filtration and still have to do waterchanges. Personaly i dont find it hard to take 3 gallons out and put 3 fresh ones in once a week. Since your just startine out and probly dont have a great grasp of the balance of aquarium chemestry and biology i wouldnt reccomend starting with shrimp, as most are somewhat sensative. As for easy plants look to the Anubias family and I have also kept amazon swords in low-tec-low-lighting situations, plus, if your looking at a 20 long your gonna need short plants haha. 
But basically I would do this- For a 20 gallon long, a penguin 100, this is a very efficient and reliable filter, a 50-100 watt aqueon heater, you dont have to get an aqueon but they are very accurate, a whisper 10 airpump with an airstone, a strip thermometer, a medium sized sand-gravel because meny plants dont grow really well in overly larged sized gravel or too small sized sand, get about 30 watts of lighting, usually a two bulb fixture, make sure you do weekly water changes of 3-5 gallons at least and spend a little more and get some liquid fertilizer if you really want plants.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

Haha sounds like Chad320 has got it better explained then me


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

Thanks for the quick replies. Unfortunately getting a stand is simply not a reality for me, all of my floor space is already claimed, so the dresser is the only open area. Would a 10 gallon also be too heavy, or would that be a more manageable weight? I'm not set on a 20 by any means but thought that would be a nice size to start with, guess not though haha. a 50% water change once a month would work for me, I would just prefer to not have to be doing weekly changes. Even every 2-3 weeks would be fine. One thing that I just thought of, the area that it would be going if I can do this would get a fair bit of direct sunlight, would this overheat my tank and would I want to put up some kind of blocker for that?


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## chad320 (Mar 7, 2010)

You would definately want to block any sunlight. You would personally have to look at your dresser and determine if it tough ehough. I solid hardwood dresser could likely hold a 10g, but a chipboard cheap dresser would bow over time.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Could you post up a picture of your dresser?

Does it sit on feet, or solidly on the floor? If it's not on feet, you may be fine with a 20L, though depending on the design of your dresser you may need to add some structural support.

The smaller tank you go with, the more water changes you'll need to do.


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## londonloco (Aug 25, 2005)

Google Diana Walstad..... the tank as you'd like to keep it (heavily planted, wc's every 3 months, light from window, no co2) can be done if set up correctly.


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## kribkeeper888 (Oct 8, 2011)

I used to keep a 15 gal on a pretty flimsy wooden dresser for about 8 years.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't have any pics, but its either half inch or 3/4 inch thick mdf or something similar. Even with all the drawers out its still pretty heavy, and it is solid alon the floor, no feet or anything


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## F22 (Sep 21, 2008)

find a heavy friend to sit on the dresser, if you dont hear any cracks (or it doesn't give out) you should be just fine... 

I kept a 20G meta frame on an old dresser for years


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

So I sat on the dresser myself (140ish pounds) and it creaked a bit, but didn't seem to have any issues. I figure I'll stick with a 10 gallon for now just to get started and to be safe for the dresser. And I think I'll just do shrimp for the first good while, and maybe look into adding some fish down the line, or just do a separate smaller tank for fish on the other end of the dresser if I decide I want fish bad enough. So I figure I'll be getting a 10 gallon tank, filter, lights etc soon. Would I need a heater? Room temperature hovers around 70f. For substrate would regular aquarium gravel work, or would i want something bigger/smaller for plants? I like the look of smaller leaved plants, so I was thinking of having some java moss covering something like 20% of the tank bottom, with some java fern, with some green hygro and some rotala if it wouldn't be overcrowding. Does that sound like a fair amount of plants or am I over/underestimating how many plants would fit in a 10g? My other question is what kind of shrimp would I want, and how many for the tank? I would like a species that is fairly hardy and colourful. Thanks again.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> I'm looking into starting up an aquarium in my room
> I want 20 gallon
> I would like to have little to no water changes needed


Then you should try the El natural method. Which is basically dirt topped with 3ml gravel or sand. Scotts' dirt is good. My favorite sand is river sand which I got for $3 at landscapers.

Easiest plants are moss, ferns, anubias, and wisteria. 

The main item is your light. It is the engine. For 20 gallon can do a few clip on lights with CFLs (twisted bulbs) or T8 strip or dual T8 or T5NO (normal output). Search hardware stores, hydroponic stores, this website, Big Al's site, Pet Blvd site. Note the 20 g long is largest that can go on a dresser.


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## R_Barber001 (Oct 5, 2011)

Changing aquarium water is not really the most fun, but, they are necessary. Changing the water removes excess nitrates, fertilizers and the 'algae cloud' that should be scrubbed from your aquarium walls. By scrubbing the side walls occasionally you prevent the growth of algae. The water removed is a way of 'resetting' your water parameters. (not literally, Your temp.,Ph and KH should remain close)


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## falcooo (Sep 30, 2011)

Just a quick addition, I have had my 55 gallon tank on a 20 year old wooden dresser for almost a year now with no issues.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> I figure I'll stick with a 10 gallon for now just to get started and to be safe for the dresser.


You are so limited with a 10 gallon. A 20 gallon long is more fun
Check out craigslist for 1. I got a 20g long with stand for $20 on craigslist. Then got the light and hood from local aquarium association member for $10.


falcooo said:


> I have had my 55 gallon tank on a 20 year old wooden dresser for almost a year now with no issues.


Thanks for the info!!

I assumed that 20 gallon largest to be on dresser. For have read that there must be support on the edges. Perhaps the edges of your tank are supported.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

R_Barber001 said:


> Changing aquarium water is not really the most fun, but, they are necessary.


I have read some using dirt (El Natural) in their tank don't change their water but 1x a year. I change my water monthly.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

I decided to go with a 10 gallon just to be safe, but stupidly ended up buying one of those kits that uses LED lighting in the hood. However it is set up so I don't have a way to return it and redo this. so now I'm looking at upgrading the lighting on a budget and came across these: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/illume-19-xenon-plug-in-linear/911405. If I get a glass top for the aquarium and used that, I would have 50 watts of lighting for $45 ($15 of that for the glass top). Has anybody used something like this? I haven't been able to find much at all using the search. They're linkable also, so I could have 100 watts for $60 if I wanted the extra light. Is there a reason people don't use these?

Edit: I can also get 35 watt bulbs for $6 per bulb, so goign by that I could have 70 watts of lighting for $42+taxes, or get 50 watt bulbs for $7 each giving me 100 watts for $45 or so.


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## falcooo (Sep 30, 2011)

epiphany said:


> I decided to go with a 10 gallon just to be safe, but stupidly ended up buying one of those kits that uses LED lighting in the hood. However it is set up so I don't have a way to return it and redo this. so now I'm looking at upgrading the lighting on a budget and came across these: http://www.homedepot.ca/product/illume-19-xenon-plug-in-linear/911405. If I get a glass top for the aquarium and used that, I would have 50 watts of lighting for $45 ($15 of that for the glass top). Has anybody used something like this? I haven't been able to find much at all using the search. They're linkable also, so I could have 100 watts for $60 if I wanted the extra light. Is there a reason people don't use these?
> 
> Edit: I can also get 35 watt bulbs for $6 per bulb, so goign by that I could have 70 watts of lighting for $42+taxes, or get 50 watt bulbs for $7 each giving me 100 watts for $45 or so.



Thats a TON of light for a 10 gallon tank, look up the suggested wpg threads on here....most people say 2wpg as a general rule of thumb, however with T5 HO in my case the rule is broken as T5HO are much stronger. Make sure if your goal is to keep plants try and get a 65000k bulb.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

How about a single SolarMax T5NO light strip for $30

Here is a tank with the dual SolarMax T5NO light strip


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

My issue with something like that is I live in Canada and everything is either really expensive here, or it costs the same as the item price to get it shipped here on nearly anything I can find. I'm trying to keep this cheap.

Would something like this do anything for me? http://www.homedepot.ca/product/counterbrite-black-1-light-undercabinet-fixture/915569


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> My issue with something like that is I live in Canada and everything is either really expensive here, or it costs the same as the item price to get it shipped here on nearly anything
> 
> Would something like this do anything for me? http://www.homedepot.ca/product/counterbrite-black-1-light-undercabinet-fixture/915569


Oops!! I didn't check where you lived. 

It is halogen lamp. Thus it would be high light and you would have to inject Co2.

Diy might be cheaper for you. For me it wasn't. 

My latest diy is using a small LED flood light. It is 3.5 x 4.5 and is 10 watts. Here is where I got the idea. I have it over 29 gallon at present. It is giving a noon affect. Light from it spreads on the ceiling 6 feet. Thus planning on making a canopy for it. 

An under the counter fixture with T8 bulb would work. I have 1 from wall-mart for $10 and replaced the cool white bulb with an all aquarium glass bulb. Had made a reflector from gutter and painting it white inside. I have it over 10-g tank. It hangs over for is 24in. Cabomba grows good with it. 

Before buy from hardware store make certain that they carry the replacement bulbs. For found with T5 light strip that the replacement bulbs didn't fit. They were 1/2 in short.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

Would there be negative effects if I didn't do co2? Or would the plants just grow slower? This tank is going to have shrimp and fish so I don't want to be using co2 as I've read that it can adversely affect the livestock


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> Would there be negative effects if I didn't do co2?
> I've read that it can adversely affect the livestock


Co2 has to be balanced with the light or algae over growth occurs. There is a small amount of Co2 in the tank. Found putting reptile coconut bark under the substrate adds Co2 to the substrate. For the decay of the mulm adds Co2.

Stick with easy plants like mosses, ferns, anubias, and green Hygrophila and you don't have to worry about dosing Co2 additive, Excell. 

As to Co2 have only read that shrimp are sensitive to Excel. Injected Co2 causes problems if over dosed using pressurized Co2 system. First sign of this is fish swimming at top, thus easily checked. 

For the light there are also CFL (twisted bulb), which are florescent bulbs.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

I've currently got 2 things of java moss, one anubia, a crypt, a small thing of dwarf hairgrass, a plant called mayaka (i can't find much about this online, perhaps it was misnamed at the lfs?) and a small unknown plant they gave me for free. I am planning to have 4 otos, a colony of shrimp and I may also be doign a small school of fish for the upper area of the tank. Ideally I would be adding more hairgrass and moss once the tank is further established. Going by these plants, if I went with the halogen $13 fixture would I be able to get away without doing co2, even if it meant the plants might be growing slower? Alternatively if I had two CFL bulbs pointed down at the tank would that be providing enough light?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Did a search in lighting section for halogen and found this by zeldar (post 5):
hahah well this was a fast experiment. I put the halogen in and the bulb was prob 10" from the HC. Turned on the light, watched TV for I'm not joking 2 minutes, looked back over at the plants and the spot right below the bulb was freakin' smoking. hahah Needless to say, halogens get a little to hot. The HC in the middle is absolutley fried and shrivled up and dead. haha 2 mintues!!!


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

There goes that idea then haha, how well do the CFLs work? I've currently got clip on desk lamp with a 23 watt cfl in it, if I used that and got another CFL/lamp what kind of results woudl that give me?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Here is a 5.5G tank with 1x15w CFL 6500k daylight bulb. With it can probably grow:
Moss, Ferns, Crypts, Hygrophila and Sagittaria subulata. 
The Crypts need rich substrate. Root tabs would help. Some use oscomote vegetable for root tabs.

Here is a 15G tank with 2x23w CFLs 6500k daylight. With it can probably grow additional plants: Bacopa , Vallisneria, and Echinodorus tenellus

Perhaps you can find a desk lamp with a fluoresant bulb T8 on craigslist. It would add the type of plants you can grow.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

I just found another clip on light for $5, so I figure I'll use that one and the one I currently have and just go get a glass top. Is 6500k the best colour for the plants?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> Is 6500k the best colour for the plants?


That is what I see most are using. I believe that is the daylight bulb.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

Awesome, thanks for all your help and the quick replies  this is definitely one of the most welcoming forums I've been on


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> This is definitely one of the most welcoming forums I've been on


True, True!! Another good site is APC

It took me a year to get plants growing. My 1st batch was killed by BBA (black brush algae). I posted my dilema and 1 whom is member here and at APC sent me plants for free. Didn't even pay for shipping.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

So I've now got 2x13w daylight bulbs over the tank, about an 1.5" from the top of the water, and 12" or so from the substrate. Would this be considered high light or am I still low-mid light?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I think you have medium light. It is about the same as a T8 strip, which I have over a 10 gallon tank. 

Plants that died are:
Baby tears, Ricca and Pennywort

Plants that survived are:
Cambomba, hair grass, and ferns.



epiphany said:


> ended up buying one of those kits that uses LED lighting in the hood


Still have it? It would give a great moon affect to view at night.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

Yeah the hood is just sitting in my basement now but I'm keeping the LED lights for night as it has a night setting that uses two blue LED lights and gives the tank a cool glow. And I'd say I'm fairly stocked up on plants now. The plants I know of at the moment are: 1x java fern, 1x crypt, 1x mayaka, 1x dwarf hairgrass, 1x anubias barteri, 1x temple, 1x cabomba, some java moss and 3 unknown plants. There are currently also 4x otos. 

Here's how it is right now:
FTS: http://i.imgur.com/PMYJS.jpg
Left side: http://i.imgur.com/Xxprn.jpg
Right side: http://i.imgur.com/yxdU1.jpg

I also picked up a bottle of Flourish and will be dosing it 1-2x a week


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## jerilovesfrogs (Oct 22, 2010)

i use CFLs, the daylight, 10w ones....and i have been growing narrow leaf chain sword, dwarf sag, mosses, microsword and dwarf hairgrass....all have been doing well for quite sometime.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

epiphany said:


> I also picked up a bottle of Flourish and will be dosing it 1-2x a week


Great start.roud: What is the substrate? Just think some wood for the moss to sit on would be a nice addition. A lilly would also be a nice addition. You can get the Lilly bulbs at Wall-mart for a few dollars. 

Everything looks like is growing well. Note crypts are know to melt when moved but bounce back so don't panic if it starts melting. It is like a bulb plant.

Excellent choice of fert. Dosing 5ml 2x a week for a month will help plants to adjust then can cut back to weekly dosing.

If you need more plants check out Homer_Simpson. He is in Canada and does many experiments. Thus may have some extra plants to sell.


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## epiphany (Oct 8, 2011)

Hilde said:


> Great start.roud: What is the substrate? Just think some wood for the moss to sit on would be a nice addition. A lilly would also be a nice addition. You can get the Lilly bulbs at Wall-mart for a few dollars.
> 
> Everything looks like is growing well. Note crypts are know to melt when moved but bounce back so don't panic if it starts melting. It is like a bulb plant.
> 
> ...


The substrate is aquarium gravel mixed with api first layer. And its a bit hard to see in the pic but on the left side of the tank is a fair sized wood decoration that I've tied moss to. I'll probably switch it to real wood at some point though. And I'm good on plants now I think, wuill let these all get fully established before I add more


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