# Planted Discus Tank



## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

I decided to get back into a FW tank after switching to salterwater/reef ten years ago. I wanted a discus tank, but quickly decided that I also wanted live plants as well (plastic plants just don't do it for me, lol).

So, I setup a 20 gallon tank with two small discus and quickly decided that wasn't big enough once the plants started growing in. I recently setup a 46 gallon bowfront.

Here's the setup:
-46 gallon AGA bowfront
-36" Coralife T5 light fixture (they work great on reef tanks and and have strong PAR readings at the gravel bed, so I thought I'd try them on a planted tank). 
-Fluval 404 canister filter (I'm glad I saved it from my reef tank when I added a sump). I have a sponge prefilter to prevent the intake from being covered in leaves, debris, etc.
-Penguin powerhead with sponge prefilter
-Nutrafin CO2 reactor (I was going to do DIY, but I got this cheap and it has a nifty bubble diffuser).
-3" gravel substrate that I supplement with Flourish tabs.
-250 watt submersible heater (I'm wondering if a substrate heater would be better?)

Inhabitants:
-4 discus: two red turquoise, one blue diamond, and one pigeon blood
-15 neon tetras
-2 neon cardinals 
-2 glowlight tetras (damn, I'm colorblind and I thought I was netting neon tetras, lol)

I know many people have planted discus tanks, but it's challenging to create an environment that is optimal for discus and plants. My main concern is meeting the discus's needs and having plants that will thrive as well. So, I've tried to pick out plants that will tolerate the warmer temps and lower pH under moderate lighting. I should state that I work part-time at a LFS, but I was hired for my saltwater/reef knowledge, not FW planted tanks, LOL. My co-worker is a biology/horticulture major, so I had him help me pick out plants.

I should also say that I've been in saltwater for years now, so I have to stop assuming that I'd filter my planted tank like I would a reef tank. Nitrates and phosphates aren't bad! Right now, my nitrates are at 10 ppm, but I'll have to keep an eye on that level as my plants grow and strip it from the system. If the fish waste doesn't provide enough, I'll have to dose it I guess.

Speaking of assumptions, I guess I need to remove the carbon from my Fluval. There are four chambers, and I use filter floss, peat granules, carbon, and ceramic bio-rings. I'm running peat because I want to keep the pH at about 6.5 for my discus. Fortunately, the peat doesn't leach too many tanins in the water.

Here's my issue: my tapwater is awful. I have a TDS reading of 465 from the tap, and it's very hard (much too hard for discus from what I've read). Fortunately, I have a RO/DI unit that I use for my reef tanks, so I've been using RO water (I didn't run it through the DI filter because I assumed I wouldn't need a TDS of zero). I use Kent's RO-Right to replenish trace elements and Kent's pH Control-Minus. I read that using RO water alone without any buffer would cause too much of a pH fluctuation since I have plants and I add CO2 to the tank. 

But...and a big but, I've also read that RO water isn't necessarily good for planted tanks because it strips too many trace elements from the water. When I setup this 46 gallon, I did use about 10 gallons of tap water, and the rest was RO. My pH is 6.7, and it's remained stable (I don't know if the peat is working, or if it's even worth it to use it). I really don't like the idea of using tap water because the TDS is so high and it's full of lime/calcium. I've had to replace my tank housing my reef because I was lazy and used tap to top off too many times (before I got a TDS meter and realized just how horrible it was) and I ended up with nasty mineral deposits on the glass that I could not clean off. I'm worried that if I use too much tap water on my 46, that I'll have the same problem with the glass hazing. Since I have the RO/DI filter already, is it ok to use that with a pH buffer to keep it from fluctuating? 

So, here are some pics. I'm sorry they're not the best quality. I finally figured out how to use my damn camera to get decent pics of my reef tank, and now I'm trying to figure out how to get decent pics of my planted tank, lol.

Full tank shot:









My discus (the pigeon blood is hiding in the corner):









A close-up of one of my red turquoise:









If you see anything that looks amiss, please let me know. I'm still trying to learn the names of all the plants in my tank (my co-worker spouted off all the names while we were bagging them, but I have the memory of a tetra. :icon_redf I have 14 different plant species right now, and I've tried to arrange the taller plants in the background and small plants in the foreground while trying to create an assymmetrical aquascaping. Any feedbacks and suggestions are great. Thanks!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> I decided to get back into a FW tank after switching to salterwater/reef ten years ago. I wanted a discus tank, but quickly decided that I also wanted live plants as well (plastic plants just don't do it for me, lol).


Cool welcome back. You tank looks good. You appear to be doing a good job.



Gawain1974 said:


> So, I setup a 20 gallon tank with two small discus and quickly decided that wasn't big enough once the plants started growing in. I recently setup a 46 gallon bowfront.


Yah thats way to small.



Gawain1974 said:


> Here's the setup:
> -46 gallon AGA bowfront
> -36" Coralife T5 light fixture (they work great on reef tanks and and have strong PAR readings at the gravel bed, so I thought I'd try them on a planted tank).
> -Fluval 404 canister filter (I'm glad I saved it from my reef tank when I added a sump). I have a sponge prefilter to prevent the intake from being covered in leaves, debris, etc.
> ...


This sounds much better. I wonder how discus look on the bowfront. How do you measure PAR? I would advise not to use the substrate heater...from reading you will see this isnt a good thing and most likely a waste of money. An external heater like the Hydor is more appealing.



Gawain1974 said:


> I know many people have planted discus tanks, but it's challenging to create an environment that is optimal for discus and plants. My main concern is meeting the discus's needs and having plants that will thrive as well. So, I've tried to pick out plants that will tolerate the warmer temps and lower pH under moderate lighting. I should state that I work part-time at a LFS, but I was hired for my saltwater/reef knowledge, not FW planted tanks, LOL. My co-worker is a biology/horticulture major, so I had him help me pick out plants.


Yes its challenging but it sounds like you care...thats the most important thing. You also have the right equipment....which is basically the RO. I just went through all of this after finding the optimal water for fish only. I am now coming around to having my plants grow a bit with keeping algea at bay.



> I should also say that I've been in saltwater for years now, so I have to stop assuming that I'd filter my planted tank like I would a reef tank. Nitrates and phosphates aren't bad! Right now, my nitrates are at 10 ppm, but I'll have to keep an eye on that level as my plants grow and strip it from the system. If the fish waste doesn't provide enough, I'll have to dose it I guess.



LOL this should be a huge change.




> Speaking of assumptions, I guess I need to remove the carbon from my Fluval. There are four chambers, and I use filter floss, peat granules, carbon, and ceramic bio-rings. I'm running peat because I want to keep the pH at about 6.5 for my discus. Fortunately, the peat doesn't leach too many tanins in the water.


I would remove the carbon also. Peat? Your using RO right? If I understand things correctly peat is for those who dont use RO.



> Here's my issue: my tapwater is awful. I have a TDS reading of 465 from the tap, and it's very hard (much too hard for discus from what I've read). Fortunately, I have a RO/DI unit that I use for my reef tanks, so I've been using RO water (I didn't run it through the DI filter because I assumed I wouldn't need a TDS of zero). I use Kent's RO-Right to replenish trace elements and Kent's pH Control-Minus. I read that using RO water alone without any buffer would cause too much of a pH fluctuation since I have plants and I add CO2 to the tank.


Yep its aweful. Dont use RO/RIght use Equilibrium or Barr booster?....the cheaper alternative to Equilibrium. I had my luck with RO/Right keeping a rock solid parameters but Ive moved to Equilibrium because of the plant friendly ingredients. Your nuts for using a pH down additive, are you kidding me? I dont add anything but Carib-Sea's crushed coral with aragnite. A very small pouch will keep you straight....forget that pH down junk use RO with co2. If your not going to change your water at all or pay attention to parameters at first this may not be the best thing for you. But you sound like your ready, the pH will supposedly crash. Mine hasnt.



> But...and a big but, I've also read that RO water isn't necessarily good for planted tanks because it strips too many trace elements from the water. When I setup this 46 gallon, I did use about 10 gallons of tap water, and the rest was RO. My pH is 6.7, and it's remained stable (I don't know if the peat is working, or if it's even worth it to use it). I really don't like the idea of using tap water because the TDS is so high and it's full of lime/calcium. I've had to replace my tank housing my reef because I was lazy and used tap to top off too many times (before I got a TDS meter and realized just how horrible it was) and I ended up with nasty mineral deposits on the glass that I could not clean off. I'm worried that if I use too much tap water on my 46, that I'll have the same problem with the glass hazing. Since I have the RO/DI filter already, is it ok to use that with a pH buffer to keep it from fluctuating?


Yah BIG BUT...plants need things in the water. RO takes those things out. You have to put them back in....if done why wouldnt this be even better?



> So, here are some pics. I'm sorry they're not the best quality. I finally figured out how to use my damn camera to get decent pics of my reef tank, and now I'm trying to figure out how to get decent pics of my planted tank, lol.
> 
> A close-up of one of my red turquoise:
> 
> If you see anything that looks amiss, please let me know. I'm still trying to learn the names of all the plants in my tank (my co-worker spouted off all the names while we were bagging them, but I have the memory of a tetra. :icon_redf I have 14 different plant species right now, and I've tried to arrange the taller plants in the background and small plants in the foreground while trying to create an assymmetrical aquascaping. Any feedbacks and suggestions are great. Thanks!



I still dont know the names of my plants. I think your stuff looks really good. Do you know how old your discus are? What are you feeding them?

:thumbsup: :fish:


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

It looks like a good setup. How many watts is the 36 T5? It seems a bit low...but most of the plants you have should be fine, except for the Cabomba (or similar looking plant in back right corner). 

The fish look healthy and much happier than being crammed in a 20  

What is your temperature? I've been playing with mine between the 86-90 range. After the last month at 90, I've decided to back it down to about 86. I just introduced some mosses (Weeping and Chrismas) and they're showing signs of stress. 

Finding plants that tolerate high temps will be challenging, but IME, there needs to be a good balance of co2, lights and ferts. Right now I have in my tank: Bylxa japonica, vals, Sagittaria, red tiger lotus, H. difformis, H. balsamica and Crypt spiralis (and the two mosses I'm trying to recover). I also was successful with Nymphoides taiwan. 

Trial and error will be the way to go with high temps and discus. 

Good luck and keep us informed!


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

I have been keeping discus for 15 years now and plants in the tank for only 6 months. First off, discus like temps 84-86. If they are adults, (4" or more), then 84 is good enough unless treating them for certain diseases.

That said, you can safely keep them healthy in a PH of up to 8.2. Yes, 8.2 unless you are trying to breed them. Then you need to think of lower PH until they are free swimming. As far as RO, it is really only necessary if you have water the equivilant of rock, unless again you are breeding.

Adding peat is a waste of money. You dont need it. I suggest you do some reading on a discus site for more info so you can better decide what is best for what you are trying to accomplish. Alot of the literature out there is old school and more for wild discus and not domesticated. A good site is www.simplydiscus.com.

Your plants and tank look awesome!!!! Your discus look like healthy good specimens. I think you have made some great choices!!! Keep us informed with your experiences!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Marilyn1998 said:


> I have been keeping discus for 15 years now and plants in the tank for only 6 months. First off, discus like temps 84-86. If they are adults, (4" or more), then 84 is good enough unless treating them for certain diseases.
> 
> That said, you can safely keep them healthy in a PH of up to 8.2. Yes, 8.2 unless you are trying to breed them. Then you need to think of lower PH until they are free swimming. As far as RO, it is really only necessary if you have water the equivilant of rock, unless again you are breeding.
> 
> Adding peat is a waste of money. You dont need it. I suggest you do some reading on a discus site for more info so you can better decide what is best for what you are trying to accomplish. Alot of the literature out there is old school and more for wild discus and not domesticated. A good site is www.simplydiscus.com.


Ive been keeping Discus for about 6 months. Ive probably researched them longer then Ive had them.

Discus are soft acidic water fish.

Anything over 7 pH is alkaline, I would not recommend putting Discus into alkaline water..regardless of breeding or not...wild or tank raised. 

I for one would not be proud of acclimating a fish to a certain parameter....on the other hand I am proud I alter the parameter to meet my fish's needs.

IMHO your Discus are going to come from someone keeping them in the correct parameters so I would plan for the correct parameters.

As far as simplydiscus goes..IMO its full of misinformation. I would go elsewhere for good information. I could tell you more in a private message about what I learned.


Its actually pretty comical the advice the "new school" discus keeper has to offer.


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Neat looking tank~! It looks a little dark though to be planted.Also,you may wanna tie some moss on your wood to give it a more natural look. Just a question,in the last picture,how did you make the colour of your red turquoise stand out so well? Does it have anything to do with the lighting? I also keep discus in my 100gal but their colours do not appear as nicely as yours. More often than not,i would see their vertical bars rather than their turquoise colour which is somewhat faded and hidden.


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

I am not a great orator or debater, but Brilliant, even though your 6 months experience raising discus in lower PH may prove you well, I doubt you can show any experience in what the end result of a lifetime for that discus will show.

Jack Wattley, one of the pioneers of discus agrees that PH for discus, unless breeding them, is good even into the high 7's. Andrew Soh, author of Discus, The Naked Truth, also agrees that higher pH is not harmful to the discus.
On the other hand, PH fluctuations from trying to fight your water to constantly LOWER your natural PH does more harm than good. It is also time consuming and expensive.

I have discus that are 9 years old, never sick, and been in PH 7.2-7.6 all their lives. As far as where you buy your discus, MANY breeders in the USA and Canada keep their PH between 6.8-7.6. THe trick is, when acclimating them, to not let the PH adjust MORE than .5 in a short time. I buy discus only from breeders that are known to have quality fish, and NOT most LFS that use a central filtering system, too low temps, and buy less than average specimens.

That said, I always encourage folks to READ, READ, READ, and do more reading. THen take what you learn and apply it to what you want to accomplish, and what you have to work with. I agree acidic waters are good discus tanks. I also think that PH in the high 7's is not detrimental. 

Just my opinion, my experiences, and my attendance at many lectures and emails from very prominent discus breeders from the USA, Singapore and Canada.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Marilyn1998 said:


> I am not a great orator or debater, but Brilliant, even though your 6 months experience raising discus in lower PH may prove you well, I doubt you can show any experience in what the end result of a lifetime for that discus will show.
> 
> Jack Wattley, one of the pioneers of discus agrees that PH for discus, unless breeding them, is good even into the high 7's. Andrew Soh, author of Discus, The Naked Truth, also agrees that higher pH is not harmful to the discus.
> On the other hand, PH fluctuations from trying to fight your water to constantly LOWER your natural PH does more harm than good. It is also time consuming and expensive.
> ...


Yah for me so far so good. I just looked its been 3 months. They have ...grown considerably...two have paired up.

I use RO/DI water. The pH is unaltered. I spend more time dosing ferts then anything. co2 dips my pH a little bit. I use a tiny crushed coral pouch in the filter. I change water weekly. Nothing extraordinary.

When I saw Jack Wattley I did not happen to hear him suggest that. I noted a lower pH and lower temps then suggested elsewhere.

My whole gripe is if people agree that low pH is better...know its better then why not make it better. The fish deserve it...


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Nice tank. IMO, treating RO water does more harm than good. I use RO water straight from the barrel, then dose Seachem Excel, Tropica MasterGrow, and PMDD from Greg Watson. All my tanks do fine with this routine.....DC


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

I have to say the the PH really doesn't matter. Consistency is key. It's best to just keep doing what you are doing. I also know of many Discus raised in harder water doing fine -Now one raised in soft water that is thrown into hard water or visa versa is a different story. The key is to have parameters that the fish are used to. Many books recommend the low PH because this is the natural environment that the wilds come from and the recommendation assumes that the fishkeeper is keeping these fish,but it's misleading because for a fish that may have been raised in a high PH (or for one that was slowly acclimated to harder more alkaline water) that is it's natural environment.

There is no "magic PH" that the fish thrive at. Total BS. The only thing to watch out for in high PH is Ammonia (an issue on new tanks). This is not an issue in acidic environment.

If you have over 2.5 to 3.0 wpg you start getting into the "high light tank" area and you will need pressurized Co2 since DIY does not produce enough consistently.

So far tank looks good though, maybe add a few more plants.

You can keep the carbon. It will quickly become covered with beneficial bacteria after a few weeks and become biomedia.

Take the peat out. Waste of time with RO.

Regarding RO water. Honestly don't get it on a planted tank (take stuff out and then put it back in???), but my water comes out of the tap kh 4 GH 5 so never messed with em too much. KH 3-4 (at least if using Co2) and GH of 5-8 is pretty good for planted tank. Note that your tap water a lot of things your plants need including calcium and magnesium as well as some trace elements. RO is "dead" water. The simplest most economic way to get the "right" KH and GH is to simply blend in your tap water with the RO- Essentially use the RO to "cut" the tap to the hardness and alkalinity (KH) that you want. Don't need EQ, RO right and so on... save your money for fishfood, more plants, Co2...

As far as stocking level, you are really on the high side IMO. I can't believe you had those fish in a 20 gallon before- wow. Discus are dirty fish that unfortunatley require pristine water to thrive. Closely monitor the fish and water parameters. If you notice that they are getting stress bars or you see the nitrates climbing you will want to do more water changes, but I would recommend at least once or twice a week 30- 50% water changes to keep them in good shape at that stocking level.


Best of luck,

Jeff


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your encouraging and welcoming comments and feedback, I really appreciate it! 

First, I just want to clarify one thing: I didn't have all four discus and 15 neons in my 20 gallon! I originally had two smaller discus and five neon cardinals (of which only 2 survived--bad batch from wholesaler). I read Jack Watley's column in TFH where he said that two adult discus could be kept in a 20. However, everyone seems to be of the general consensus that discus do much better in larger groups, so that's why I decided to upgrade. It was only after the upgrade that I added two more discus and the 15 neon tetras. 

My discus came from the LFS where I work. The red turquoise had been in the store for several months in a tank that used only RO water with a pH of 6.5 and a temperature of 86 degrees. That's why I want to keep my pH close to 6.5 and I do keep the temperatures at 85-86 degrees. I kept my eyes on these guys since I started working at the store, and while I'm a salt geek, I feel in love with them and knew I had to setup a tank for them. They really are awesome fish...very personable.

YUoHO, you asked how I got the red to come out on my red turquoise pic. It's normally that bright on my fish, but I suspect it has to do with my lighting. I do run one actinic bulb because I noticed that it makes the discus and neons flouresce beautifully, although it provides no benefit to the plants.

I noticed that several have commented that my tank looks dark, and I think the pics are deceiving. I finally figured out how to get decent pics of my reef tank (lit with metal halides and power compacts), so I had to adjust my camera's settings so everything doesn't look too washed out. I didn't adjust my settings, so that might explain why the planted tank looks so dark in my pics.

But, back to my lighting. A member on a reefboard that I moderate is a lighting guru, and he's done all sorts of tests on different types of lights, ballasts, etc. T5s can reach depths of a tank with a higher lumen/par than metal halides, provided the right ballast and individual reflectors over each bulb is used. He uses an underwater PAR meter to get his results. From my understanding, the watt to gallon rule doesn't really apply at all to T5 bulbs. So, I thought I would try a T5 fixture since I got mine for next to nothing. It's only 36 watts, but the amount of light reaching the tank is supposed to be much brighter, in theory.

However, I don't really feel like experimenting since I've got too much time and money invested in livestock and plants. I picked up a 36" Coralife Power Compact fixture tonight at work. It's 192 watts. I'm still going to use the T5 fixture as well. The bulb configuration is as follows: one 96 watt 10K bulb and one 96 watt actonic 03 bulb (this is what came with the fixture). I changed out the actinic bulb in the T5 fixture, so both are now 10K. So, I have 96 watts of 10K PC, 36 watts of 10K T5, and 96 watts of actinic. If I notice that the plants aren't growing well, I'll change the actinic bulb out for another 10K. They were growing well under the 10K/actinic T5 strip, but I wanted to get more light from a source (PC) that I know gives consistent results. I really do hope that I can keep the actinic bulb, because it really does help bring out the color of the discus and neons.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Ok, now I just want to respond to everyone's comments regarding the use of RO water, carbon, and peat.

I'm taking the peat out since I really don't need it. The Fluval has four chambers for media, so I guess I felt obligated to fill them all up, lol. I'll replace the peat with more filter floss. I can take the carbon out as well. Magicmagni, you mentioned that I could leave the carbon in and it will become colonized with bacteria and become a biological filter. I like that idea, and it saves me from having to buy more ceramic rings. I'd still need to change it, right? How often? Every few months? I know in saltwater, you want to change it regularly to avoid leaching organics back into the tank, but it seems that would be ideal for a planted tank. If I'm completely off base, just tell me, and I'll pull the carbon bags out.

My discus came from a tank that had only used RO water. The tap water where I live is extremely hard, full of lime/calcium, and has a TDS reading of 465. If you could see what tap water has done to my sink, shower, toliet, you'd understand why I'm very reluctant to use it. I also had to replace one tank because the tap water caused all this mineral scaling on the walls of the glass. I have my own RO/DI filter installed, so it's no more additional expense (plus, I don't have to pay for water where I live). 

My tap tastes like I'm sucking on a wet rock in a swimming pool, lol. So, given that my tap water is extremely hard and full of calcium/lime (enough where I have to use acid to clean the shower/toliet to remove deposits), is it best to use only RO and add the trace elements back in, or should I try using a combination of RO and tap? (I like this idea best since it'll make water changes easier). I suppose this will work only if the combo will keep my pH at 6.7 (since that's what the discus are used to). My tap water is 7.8. I don't really mind if my pH slowly climbs to 7.2 over time, I just want to keep it consistent.

Also, someone asked what I feed my discus. I feed Hei Feng Super Bits (they contain lots of protein and vitamins that are supposed to enhance their colors). I also feed frozen blood worms and mysis shrimp as well.

I picked up some more plants as well, and I'll be planting them soon. I got some more anacharis for the left corner, as well as some green hedge, ambulia, annubia nana, a dwarf lily, and some java moss to attach to that big piece of driftwood.

Thanks again everyone for your time and feedback!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Ok, I'll try to make this post shorter than my previous two! 

Here are some pics of the plants I added tonight:

green hedge:










ambulia:










annubia nana:










I have a few "mystery" plants that I hope you gurus can easily identify. I tried looking them up, but some species look identical to my colorblind eyes. Some days it's a wonder I can dress myself.

Mystery #1:










Mystery #2:










Mystery #3 (I think it's a dwarf red lily?):










Some random shots:

Red ludwigia and hypro (I think???) with some tall "grassy stuff" to the right (nice ID, eh?) and water onions, green hedge, and amazon sword in the foreground:










Blue Diamond Discus:










Blood Pigeon Discus (I don't think his colors have fully matured yet):










A full-tank shot:










Do y'all think I need anymore plants, or should I let these grow in and see how they go? I don't really want to cover the gravel completely since the discus love to graze from the bottom. I realize that I crossed the high-light threshold, so I'll be looking into pressurized CO2 systems (and here all this time I thought I'd only ever be buying a CO2 system for a calcium reactor for my reef, lol). 

My next hurdle to jump is fertilizers! I'm so damn confused right now. Gotta love insomnia!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Cool pics...thanks for answering questions. 

I wonder if that guy used an Apogee PAR meter...this is what I looked up online. I have metal halide, power compact and T5...From looks I would assume T5 had the least PAR...thats weird.

I think you should get rid of those plants on the left in that last shot. Get some different plants later. There are some great deals here on the swap and shop.

About pH...I dont think there is a magical pH...just one below 7. I dont mean to get all hostile about it I am just passionate about these fish and keeping them in the correct parameters. Hardness also applies here but theres no need to go postal about that when RO is in use.

Speaking of RO...I hope you have a membrane flush valve....if your water is like you say it is...which I am not doubting...I think you should be flushing your membrane constantly for extended life. Being that your a experienced reef guy I think I may be blowing in the wind here.

I think RO water is excellent. Cutting it with tap water is like well...cutting it with tap water. Need I say more?...if this doesnt mean anything to you then you dont get my drift. 

Everyone does things differently...I for one dont lke to acclimate my new fish for several hours or days....or have to come up with excuses and "new school" reasoning for my off parameters I would have to acclimate my fish to.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh yeah, I flush my RO membrane at least once a week, depending upon how often I use it. I have it permanently installed under my sink with a drinking water attachment, which beats the hell outta those Britta faucet filters.

Why should I get rid of the plants on the left side (the anacharis)? Is there something wrong with them, or are they just fugly?

Here's a review he did for the IceCap 4x54 T5 retro system:
http://www.reefmonkey.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3126
I should be more clear: it takes multiple T5 bulbs (4-6, as many as you can cram on the top of your tank) to get the equivalent, or close to, metal halide. He did use an Apogee PAR meter. Also, it's vital that each T5 bulb have its own parabolic reflector. My T5 strip is just a 2x18 watt Coralife, and I don't have individual reflectors on the bulbs, so I figured I'd be better off getting a PC fixture.

Well, after a night of reading all about fertilizers and frying my brain, I went ahead and ordered some dry ferts from www.gregwatson.com. I ordered 2 lbs of potassium nitrate, 1 lb of potassium sulfate, 1 lb of mono-potassium phosphate, and 1 lb of CSM+B Plantex. 

If I follow the EI guidelines, I should follow this dosage schedule:
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 (potassium nitrate) 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 (mono-potassium phosphate)3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 (potassium sulphate)3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements (CSM+B Plantex) 3x a week
50% weekly water change


Now, I have a couple of real newbie questions. Do I just add the correct measurements of dried fertilizers directly to my tank, or do I need to dissolve them in water to make a solution first? Also, the CSM+B Plantex contains trace amounts of Iron, along with other micro nutrients, or do I need to dose Iron separately as well?

Oh, and here's an even dumber question: will adding all these fertilizers compromise my water quality? I know I want to keep the water pristine for discus. Or, or these ferts not an issue (as long as I dose properly and don't trigger a massive nuisance algae bloom)? Also, what the hell is BGA? Is that blue-green algae (which is really cyano)? Haha, I feel really dumb asking that one, but it's not on the list of acronyms.

Thanks!


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

Carbon is another one of those highly debated items in a tank. IMO, it is great to remove meds from the water, otherwise it isnt doing anything. It quickly gets filled and leeches back the elements into the water. Now with plants, I dont know if that matters. But I do know that it not only does it remove the bad things, but also removes the good elements needed by the fish and plants as well. I would fill that canister with another large pore sponge, or some bio rings, or floss. depends on where in the system it is.

Ro is not a waste, it is expensive. In your case, I would blend it with your tap water during the wc. It is much easier on the fish to go UP in PH a few tenths than DOWN. If your PH rises with the wc say .2 -.5 it wont hurt them.
It is absolutely correct that ammonia is much less toxic at lower PH than at higher. 

note: I have noticed that my tank seems to carry a trace of ammonia now that I use EI ferts. Also, I cant get the nitrates ever to show. Plants and fish are doing well so I am not gonna sweat it. 

As far as dosing ferts, you can add the dry directly to the water. REad Rex's guide on micros, macros and when to add (i think phosphates?) anyway, there are 2 not to add together becasue it affects your iron. Personally, I am using Greg's PMDD even tho I bought the other stuff too. I find it much easier on my brain and it is working out well. I may have to add additional KNO3 at some time or another to get those nitrates in whack. 
I have been told you cant overdose and get algae, it is underdosing that causes it. Let me know what you find out as you are getting the dosing settled.  

mYSTERY #1 looks to me like E. Bleheri. #2 like E. Osiris #3 is dwarf red lily.

I could be wrong... but I think I am right.

I love your tank. Let it grow in some. Once you start that CO2 it will start getting thick! 

The whole point of this is (1) Do YOU like it? and (2) Do your fish and plants like it?

Enjoy it!! And take lots of pics!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Gawain1974 said:


> Oh, and here's an even dumber question: will adding all these fertilizers compromise my water quality?


Yes, that is why you start with 100% RO that has a TDS close to zero.



Gawain1974 said:


> I know I want to keep the water pristine for discus. Or, or these ferts not an issue (as long as I dose properly and don't trigger a massive nuisance algae bloom)?


Ferts will raise your TDS, IMO the number one thing to be concerned about with Discus. If you want happy fish, measure your TDS daily and find the limit for *your Discus* then stay below that. Ignore stress bars, look at body and eye color, where they are in the tank and how much they eat and move around. If your Discus are not getting randy with each other they are not as happy as they should be....DC


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Brilliant said:


> Cool pics...thanks for answering questions.
> 
> I wonder if that guy used an Apogee PAR meter...this is what I looked up online. I have metal halide, power compact and T5...From looks I would assume T5 had the least PAR...thats weird.
> 
> ...


You don't need to keep discus in acidic pH's. Like it was mentioned earlier by numerous people a higher pH is fine as well. However, lower pH's mean lower kH's so it will benefit your plants. For this reason alone keeping them in a low pH may be better not for the discus but for the plants.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

ianiwane said:


> You don't need to keep discus in acidic pH's. Like it was mentioned earlier by numerous people a higher pH is fine as well. However, lower pH's mean lower kH's so it will benefit your plants. For this reason alone keeping them in a low pH may be better not for the discus but for the plants.


To live? I never said they wouldnt live in akaline water. 
Either way you say it I am glad to see the fish in acidic water.
Lower TDS in general is optimal with discus, one of the main parameters that should be watched. It just so happens that this water is now popular for plants also.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

looks like you guys have been having all the fun over here!!:eek5: 

let me first guess at ur mystery plants.....

1) looks to be a type of sword...
2) looks like a red rubid sword.... just VERY SMALL and hasnt gotten its color yet...
3) probably right... i havent actually seen a dwarf red lilly in person but i think thats one...

the whole carbon discussion. from what I have read... carbon as said takes all the "stuff" out of the water nasties and good what amano does...(hope you know who he is by now) is puts it in his substraight when he first starts his tanks... yes his substraight. why? i've read he said it takes out extra nutrience in the begining of the tanks "life" but then is great for biological bacteria so its good all the way. and then it probably lets stuff slowly back into the substraight.

ph, 
im no expert but i can tell you this. 
from what ive read, discus generally are kept in soft water... because its more natural and induces breeding. from what i believe i read that rexx posted your better off acclimating them to your normal water unless its horrible... it will save you time and effort. now in your case it seems your in that %2 of the people on the board where your water is just REALLY BAD so you already have a RO/di unit... why not use it? it would be stupid not to. then you can add your ferts and know pretty much exactly what is in your water:hihi: 
most people think that it is pointless using ro water if you are doing a planted tank but in your circumstances... BAD tap water... ALREADY has ro unit... why not take advantage of it!

the whole fert thing... you can either put them in as power and let them disolve intank.... most people who do this put them outside their filter return :hihi: or you can put them in a clean cup with some tap water and mix them in if your worried about them disolving..


and thats my $0.02

(gotta love how people can never read the entire first post right :icon_roll but hey it adds some flavor to your post!)

your tank looks great too! keep the anarchids... they might not please his eye's but its not his tank :flick: :flick: 

and lastly have fun!!

- fish newb


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## aquamoon (Jul 26, 2004)

Plant #3 is a _Nymphaea lotus var. stellata _ or Dwarf Lily . They can be a light red/pink color mixed with a little green.


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

Carbon is usefull in the beginning.. absorbs ammonia and other toxins which compensates for the plants not growing at first. As its cleaning ability wears off the plants take over if all goes as planned. If done right with enough fast growing plants the tank never really cycles in the traditional sense. Never have to change out the carbon nor the other biological media. You can rinse from time to time, but if you have a decent prefilter sponge on the intake of your filter it helps reduce this maintainance.

Ferts can be put in directly. Been doing this for years and never had an issue. The only thing I never put in the direct is calcium chloride, which gets hot when wet. Don't want to burn the fish.

Potassium sulfate may not be needed- especially if you are using Equalibrium to reconstitute your water. It has something like 10x's the amout of potassium you need. Luckily it's harmless in excess.

Inorganic ferts will not harm your fish when used correctly. Tom Barr did testing with Amano shrimps which are way more sensitive to water parameters then any fish and if I recall this correctly it wasn't until something like 100ppm Nitrates that they started having problems. If you do water changes and dose resonably you have nothing to worry about. You have more to worry about not giving the plants what they need and restricting growth. What's good for the plants is good for the fish generally speaking.

BGA can happen in planted tanks. It is always associated with high light tanks without enough Nitrates. Shoot for around 10ppm to avoid issues.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks again everyone for all of your comments, I really appreciate your time and effort to respond. If there's one thing I've learned in the aquarium hobby is that there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat. 

So, is BGA blue green algae (also known as cyano?). I just want to clarify. Yes, I'm such a plant board newbie, lol!

So, based on everyone's comments, agreements, and disagreements, this is going to be my course of action. I assume consistency is the answer. If I'm noticing negative results, I'll make changes.

*1) water:* I'm going to use my RO/DI unit for water. I already have the unit for my reef tank, I want to keep the water clean/pure as possible for my discus, and my tap water is awful (TDS of 465). I may later decide to use some tap water to dillute into the RO water. When setting this tank up, I used approximately 10 gallons of tap to 30+ gallons of RO, and my pH has since crept up to 7.2. This is fine (for the moment) since I don't want to breed my discus--I have enough to deal with already, lol.

*2) Carbon:* Yes, I know who Amano is!  It seems as if the carbon I have in my system won't hurt my tank as it is still new, and as it becomes exhausted, it will becomes a beneficial biological filter. I'm not sure if it'll leach elements back into the water because I used Black Diamond carbon (it's reef-grade, and it supposedly will not leach nutrients back out into the water column). That's ok, because I do have a good sponge prefilter on my canister, so it should make a nice additional biological filter.

*3) CO2:* I'm not going to do a pressurized CO2 system just yet. I have the Nutrafin CO2 yeast reactor with the ladder diffuser that I'm currently using, and I'll tie in a second canister to increase CO2 output. My reasoning in thus: while the total wattage of my lights definitely puts me in the high-light range, if I take out the actinic bulb wattage, that leaves me with 114 watts (96 PC, 18 T5) of 10K light over a 46 gallon tank (2.47 watts per gallon). I found instructions on this site for DIY CO2, and it seems that if I use two canisters for yeast fermentation, I should be able to produce enough CO2 for my tank. If this doesn't prove to be the case, then I'll definitely look into a pressurized system. I just need to watch my spending since I already have two reef tanks, LOL. I've been using the Nutrafin CO2 reactor on this tank since I've set it up, so it should be quite easy to tie in a second reactor chamber.

*4) Fertilizers:* I ordered my ferts (nitrogen, sulfate, phosphate, and CSM+B Plantex) and they were shipped out Saturday using priority mail. Talk about fast service: I placed the order early this morning, and an hour later, I got an email stating that the order had been shipped! I'll start dosing once they get here. I've read Rexx's guide, and Tom Barr's report on EI dosing, and that's how I determined what ferts I'll need to add. 

So, now, I have a few more questions. I know, you're asking yourself, "does this guy ever shut up?" 

1) Since I'm using RO water, and I'll be using the EI method for dosing ferts, do I need to worry about using Equilibrium or RO-Right to add trace elements to the water, or will the fertilizers be enough. From what I gathered from those who think I'll be ok to use RO water, I don't really need to add any other post-RO treatments.

2) What would be a good algae-eating fish in a planted discus tank? I really don't want any sort of pleco or catfish. I was thinking a Siamese Algae Eater. Does that seem like a good idea?

3) Since I want to keep the carbon in my canister so it'll soon function as a biological filter once it's depleted, do I need to worry about the carbon absorbing the fertilizers before it becomes completely exhausted?

Thanks again for bearing with me while I assault you with so many questions!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Thanks again everyone for all of your comments, I really appreciate your time and effort to respond. If there's one thing I've learned in the aquarium hobby is that there is definitely more than one way to skin a cat.
> 
> So, is BGA blue green algae (also known as cyano?). I just want to clarify. Yes, I'm such a plant board newbie, lol!
> 
> ...


Hi yes...more then one way...maybe one day I will learn to relax a little. Sorry to get militant. These are just fish...right? :fish: 

I am learning stuff as people post on here so I am thankful people like you come ask questions. I am thankful others join in and share as well.  

It sounds like your going to have a really nice tank. Do you have pics of your reef tanks to share?

I thought that Black Diamond activated carbon was known for its leaching not retention. I could be wrong...this is just what I thought.

1. I dont think your going to need Equilibrium. I just read a post where it says its not needed. AT least not what the dose on the bottle says. I use it to raise my GH I thought it was needed...I read that it wasnt...I am going to slowly stop using it. Reading the ingredients tells me its a better option then RO RIght for the planted tank.

2. True flying fox? Not CAE...LMAO thats for sure...I would go otos or (albino) bristle nose. I have Red Cherry Shrimp in my one tank. They hang at the top and clean up my devices hanging in the water. I saw them grooming the grass in front of my tank once or twice...you probably wont see them much with such large fish in the tank.

3. I think you know what I have to say about carbon...LOL.

Is your tap water chlorinated? What are you doing to the tap water you mix in?

I am interested to see what other have to say. I like to see your progress keep posting. Hope this helps.


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

Sounds like a plan!! I think all your reasoning is right and I think you will have a good experience to boot.

I cant speak for carbon in planted tanks, only fish only. In those, carbon is likely to cause water conditions that will give your fish Hole in the Head. I doubt that will be the problem in a planted tank tho.

I have no personal RO experience so cant address that. I am blessed with GREAT water! (knock on wood).

As far as the cleanup crew, I would suggest ottos, or bristlenose plecs. Most plecs find the flat bodies and slime of the discus just too much a temptation with eat off their sides. Others will say they have kept all kinds of things and nothing bothered their discus. Personally, I put in bristlenose. Now MOST folks say these are great. And they are!!! Get young ones as they do the best job eating the algae. As they get older, trade them in as they dont do as well. 

NOTE: On two occasions I have seen my bristlenose take a chomp or two on my discus then swim off. Both times it appeared it was by mistake and on on purpose. (discus swam in the way as they were eating and moving from spot to spot.)
Once I started supplementing their diet with a bit of blanched zucchini I never saw it again.


Good Luck to you!!! HTH


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Gawain1974 said:


> 1) Since I'm using RO water, and I'll be using the EI method for dosing ferts, do I need to worry about using Equilibrium or RO-Right to add trace elements to the water, or will the fertilizers be enough. From what I gathered from those who think I'll be ok to use RO water, I don't really need to add any other post-RO treatments.


Use straight RO, keep an eye on TDS. Here is why. Discus are different, cannot use convential wisdom with water quality. You do so many water changes it is best to keep it simple. It is difficult enough to keep things in check without worrying about how much of this or that to add to the water. Straight RO with ferts only works just fine for me. Best reason to use straight RO, consistent water chemistry when doing water changes. May not seem like a big deal to some folks but is a big deal if you are doing a major water change due to sick or unhappy Discus. 



Gawain1974 said:


> 2) What would be a good algae-eating fish in a planted discus tank? I really don't want any sort of pleco or catfish. I was thinking a Siamese Algae Eater. Does that seem like a good idea?


Albino Long Fin Bristlenose, PM me if you want some. They leave your Discus alone, are beautiful, and eat algae like it is going out of style.









Male









Female



Gawain1974 said:


> 3) Since I want to keep the carbon in my canister so it'll soon function as a biological filter once it's depleted, do I need to worry about the carbon absorbing the fertilizers before it becomes completely exhausted?


Use bio balls for bio, I have a bunch. Want some, PM me and pay for shipping....DC


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

I am just surprised that all the discus keepers talking here think it is OK to keep 4 discus in a 46 gallon bowfront with neon tetras. Discus grow to be the size of dinner plates. They need plenty of room and clear, clean water. Most experienced Discus keepers agree that a 55 gallon tank should be the smallest tank used with no more than two discus. Adult Discus will easily eat Neon tetras. Two Discus in a 20 gallon tank is just absurd, I am glad you had the sense to upgrade that.

Temps over 80 slow down plant growth, but most plants can survive. Your best bet is plants from South america and Asia. Stay away from North American plants such as Bacopa, Cabomba, Ludwigia repens. You could go with the rare Asian and Amazon softwater stem plants if you have plenty of light, otherwise stick to plants like Swords, Sagittaria, Rotala indica, Hygrophila and so foth. African plants like Crinums, Anubias and Tiger Lotus would be suitable as well.

Whatever you decide for water parameters is up to you. I know many Discus keepers that do not use RO water, (but not quite to the extreme as Marlyn. I do not know of anyone keeping Discus with a pH of 8.0) and I know many pros that do swear by RO water. If you are not breeding, it is not a critical issue. The fish can acclimate. I would find out in what tye of water the fish were kept in before you bought them.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Robert H said:


> I am just surprised that all the discus keepers talking here think it is OK to keep 4 discus in a 46 gallon bowfront with neon tetras. Discus grow to be the size of dinner plates. They need plenty of room and clear, clean water. Most experienced Discus keepers agree that a 55 gallon tank should be the smallest tank used with no more than two discus. Adult Discus will easily eat Neon tetras. Two Discus in a 20 gallon tank is just absurd, I am glad you had the sense to upgrade that.


Well, as I stated earlier, I got my stocking advice from reading Jack Watley (book and column in TFH). He recommends a 20 for two adult discus, I didn't make that up myself, LOL. But, I totally agree, that seemed way too small. If they eat my neons, I don't really care; it's a food chain after all. 

Thanks for your advice on the warmer-water plants. My cabomba has doubled in size since I added it a few weeks ago, but I realize long-term success is a different story in warmer tanks. I'll do my best to stay away from North American species.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Well, as I stated earlier, I got my stocking advice from reading Jack Watley (book and column in TFH). He recommends a 20 for two adult discus, I didn't make that up myself, LOL. But, I totally agree, that seemed way too small. If they eat my neons, I don't really care; it's a food chain after all.


This is for breeding. A breeding pair per 20g high.


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

Robert H said:


> I am just surprised that all the discus keepers talking here think it is OK to keep 4 discus in a 46 gallon bowfront with neon tetras. Discus grow to be the size of dinner plates. They need plenty of room and clear, clean water. Most experienced Discus keepers agree that a 55 gallon tank should be the smallest tank used with no more than two discus. Adult Discus will easily eat Neon tetras. Two Discus in a 20 gallon tank is just absurd, I am glad you had the sense to upgrade that.


Mostly agreed. I really don't like to see Discus in planted tanks smaller than 100 gallons because on smaller tanks it is really a challenge to keep the water clean. As far as the 20 gallon for a pair this is in reference to breeding and large daily water changes. You usually want a smaller tank when breeding so that the fry can find the parents easier and latch onto their slimcoat. I think a good general rule of thumb in a display tank is to have at least 4 or more fish (less aggression) and about 20 to 30 gallons per fish since they get so large and eat so much...and poop up a storm ;-)

The neons may be ok. My fish tend to leave the small cherry shrimp in my tank-- except for the time I didn't feed them for a couple days. Then they started hunting and finding tasty treats.//
///

I think it would not be a good idea to stop using the Equilibrium ro some kind of GH builder. Where else would the plants get calcium and magnesium? Remember these are needed nutrients that RO water does not have. The only way not to use this product or equivalent is to mix some of your tap water into your RO so that you have at least 20ppm calcium and 5ppm magnesium, but normally as long as you have a few degrees (4 or more) of GH your're fine.

Now being concerned about TDS you may want to try Calcium Chloride (reef calcium) and magnesium sulfate (Epson salts) to up your GH and not EQ. I would think that all that potasium in EQ would raise the TDS more at the same GH compaired to the other chems, but I'm not sure.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh man, I just turned into that guy who has too many fish (discus) crammed into a tank.  And here, I thought I was doing them a favor by adding two more discus so I could avoid aggression issues. I've read so many times to plan on one adult discus per ten gallons of tank, but I guess with a planted tank, that "rule" doesn't really apply. So, is the issue going to be maintaining water quality (with dosing ferts, etc. for the plants), or is it going to be their size when they reach their adult size in a 46 gallon tank? My guess is probably both, eh? Right now, they vary between 4-5" in size, so I guess I'm going to have to play it by ear and I will just have to move a couple when they start to get too big and maintaining excellent water quality becomes an issue. 

Thanks for the tip on the calcium chloride and magnesium sulfate. I at least have that stuff lying around for my reef.

I picked up a few more plants today to just fill in: some dwarf hairgrass, teardrop, some more ambulia and an annubias to attach to my large piece of driftwood. I'm not a big fan of the java moss right now--looks like a nasty bird's nest at the moment, but I'll give it some time to settle in. My ferts from Greg should hopefully be here tomorrow, or Wednesday.

After I finish my planting, I'm going to hookup my second Nutrafin CO2 yeast reactor and tie it in with the first one. I'll also take some water tests and posts the results so I can get your guy's feedback/recommendations. I'm looking into a pressurized system. I may be able to get a CO2 regulator/selonoid with a bubble counter and needle valve for around $40, then I can just rent a CO2 tank. Working part-time at a LFS definitely has it's advantages. 

Thanks again

BTW, you guys have some awesome tanks! Magicmagni, your tank is absolutely fab-u-lous!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, planting took much longer than I anticipated. I found nuisance algae growing on my driftwood and several plants! Argh. I carefully removed the plants and swished them around in a bucket of water and even used a toothbrush to remove the algae. I'm not even sure what type of algae this is since I'm not at all familiar with FW algaes. Hopefully, y'all can tell me what it is. Also, if you use an acronym, can you spell it out for me just so I know for sure?

Here's a pic:










It's like a thin film that was growing on the wood and plants and it came off rather easily. I know it's just a matter of time before it comes back, probably with a vengeance. I added two smaller Siamese Algae Eaters this evening. I've read that they do a great job eating algae and cleaning the leaves of plants without damaging them.

I also tied in my second yeast reactor:










I' hoping that with the increased CO2 and with the arrival of my ferts, I will be able to add the right nutrients and choke out the algae. I hope this isn't the kind where you have to black out the tank, etc. I'm not ready for that yet! LOL

I tested my water parameters, and here are the results:

Ammonia/nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10 ppm
GH: 75 ppm
KH: 120 ppm
pH: 7-7.2 (I'm colorblind, and those colors are awful. I have a pH monitor for my reef tank, but I'd need to recalibrate it before I can use it. In any case, the pH hasn't fluctuated).


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

I hope I'm not boring y'all with my pics, so in case you're curious, here are some more. 

I added two new species of plant:

Teardrop (that's what it came in as labelled at the shop). 










Dwarf Hair Grass:










I got another annubias nana to attach to my large driftwood piece. I removed the second "glob" of java moss to the substrate. I like this better. I used one of those lead plant weights to attach the plant to a knot in the wood. Once the roots attach to the wood, I can remove the weight. I also added a second grouping of Ambulia to go in front of this wood.










Some random shots:

My SAE cleaning the leaves of my Amazon sword:










Unidentified "grassy" stuff. Yep, I missed some algae on the leaves...I hope the SAE get to it.










And finally, a couple of full tank shots:


















In the second one, the tank looks more blue than what it actually does to the eye.

Here's a list (as accurate as I can get for now), of all the different plant species I have in my tank.

1) Anacharis (Egeria densa)
2) Water Hedge (Didiplis diandra)
3) Ambulia (Limnophilia indica)
4) Sword plant (E. bleheri?) small
5) Melon sword? (E. osiris) small
6) Mystery lily #1
7) Mystery lily #2
8) Dwarf Hairgrass (Elocharis acicularis)
9) Cherry Hedge (Alternanthera ficoidea) Not a true aquatic plant, so probably won't last long...oops, I didn't know that when I picked it up.
10) Red Ludwigia (Ludwigia repens)
11) Sunset Hygrophilia (Hygrophila polysperma 'Rosanervig')
12) Water Onions
13) Unidentified "grassy" stuff
14) Red Dwarf Lily (Nymphaea lotus var. stellata)
15) Amazon Sword (Echinodorus amazonicus)
16) Pygmy Chain Sword (Echinodorus tenellus)
17) Red Cabomba (Cabomba furcata, Cabomba piauhyensis) Fastest growing plant in my tank at the moment
18) Java moss (Vesicularia dubyana)
19) Anubias (Anubias barteri 'Petite')

I think I'm done adding plants for a while since I'm pretty full and I need to have room to let them grow in a little.

I think I've come a long way since the 20 gallon I started with:








I quickly removed the undegravel filter and I knew immediately that I needed a larger tank. Rest assured, the poor fishies weren't in this tank very long (six weeks). Feel free to point at me and laugh and giggle.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

This is never boring...

I see your plants on the left have just begun to turn brown and should be causing chaos in the tank any day now with this awesome sludge outbreak. I dont know if this is a phase or what but thats the plant that started my grief. Thats why I said to remove them, not really because they look bad...heck they were one of my first plants and I thought they looked really good when they were green and thriving. I dont really know enough to say so I kept quiet (what a suprise right?). Maybe someone will provide more insight.

Your new plants look really good. The only reason I suggested getting plants here is because there seems to be a better variety online at a forum like this then the LFS. I really like the Sunsets..your plant selection doesnt seem as bad as mine.

I thought your tank is a little on the small side for discus...I figured you were going to upgrade to something larger. I am keeping discus in a 65g and 90g. The 65g is a wee bit small (short..36") for discus. I am with magicmagni on this issue.

Do you have any idea how old they are? How often are you feeding them?

How are you testing GH and KH in ppm? WHat nitrate test are you using?

PS I just measured my dinner plate at 11".


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

it sure has come a long way and looks real nice. the tank is a 46 bow im guessing? and how many of them do you have in there? you should be fine with like 4 or 5 in there for now.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

i'm pretty sure your "unidentified grassy stuff" in the one picture is vallisneria. possibly jungle val.

also, i think that teardrop is also called baby's tears.


here's a few tips or things that i've found to work in my tank, although your tank looks pretty good so feel free to ignore:
you should think about a java fern in the middle of that moss. i think it makes it look more natural and less like a bird's nest.
sometimes the SAE's go a little haywire and start eating the plants. may i suggest otos?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

nah its not thick enough leaves to be jungle val. could be italian vall or a narrow leaf sag


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

you're right. i looked at the full-tank shot and it's much too small.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Welll, I picked up the SAE yesterday because the store where I work didn't have any Ottos. Yeah, Brilliant, where I work has a decent selection of plants. I'd like to see more, but they're not exactly our best sellers. Since the markup in this hobby is kinda crazy, and I get stuff at cost where I work, I'm kinda limited to what we have, lol. I'm not complaining, however, since I've probably spent as much money for plants as I would spend on one nice coral colony.

So, my ferts from Greg Watson just arrived. Should I start dosing them immediately? Based on Tom Barr's Report, I've determined this is the dosing schedule I should use:
+/- 1/2 tsp KN03 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp KH2P04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 tsp K2S04 3x a week
+/- 1/8 (10ml) Trace Elements 3x a week

Now, if I understand correctly, I don't want to add the phosphate when I add the other ferts, right? Otherwise, it's going to bind with another nutrient and render it unavailable to the plants, right?

I'm just wondering if I should dose ferts right away since I'm having problemsm with the nuisance algae. It's my understanding that I should since I'll provide the plants with the proper nutrients and I'll choke out the bad algae.

Thanks!


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

The algae will utilize the nutrients in a lower amount than the plants. Start dosing, give the plants a chance to start choking out the algae. Personally, I think that 4 discus in that bow is fine. THey just wont grow to 11" plus. As far as the neons, they dont live as long in the higher temps as cardinals. They will be fine tho. You may want cards when replacing them.


And I LOVE your tank!!! I am thinking of removing my pebble size gravel. What substrate are you using??


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## magicmagni (Nov 7, 2003)

I'm glad you set up a second yeast reactor. Co2 is the most important nutrient on most tanks. If you look at the dry weight of an aquatic plant the majority of it is carbon so this is why carbon injection is so important. Now plants can get carbon from other sources in difference ways, but under higher light the carbon demand usually exceeds these sources Most folks look at Co2 last, but it is really the first thing to get in check. Then your macros, then your micros. Once the CO2 is at least 30ppm you should be OK. You can use the charts but they are not always accurate so always use plant growth and fish behavior as a primary indicator. Put air bubbles on at night to help the Discus to breath and to keep DO levels at reasonable levels and is cheap insurance in the event plant growth stops and photosynthesis stops.

No you are not "one of those people" just be aware of the issues associated with your choices. It's not that you can't keep that stocking level. It's just that it's more work. In a bare bottom tank, where a lot of those discus books are coming from when they make a recommendation, it is very easy to keep the tank clean and there is generally more actual water in the tank since there is less plants and driftwood and gravel. One thing is for sure. You may not need very much potassium nitrate. The fish may provide all you need even? You'll have to experiment to find what dosing levels work for your tank, but I think about half the amount you posted would be a better starting point. Everything else should be ok.

Good luck


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Brilliant said:


> Do you have any idea how old they are? How often are you feeding them?
> 
> How are you testing GH and KH in ppm? WHat nitrate test are you using?


No idea how old they are. The red turquoise and the blue diamond had been at the store since mid-March, and I bought them sometime in May. The red blood pigeon came in to the store in mid-May. I feed them once-twice a day. 

Don't laugh, I used one of those "Quick-Dip" tests to get last night's reading. I didn't want to use my expensive Salifert test kits. I picked up a Tetra Master FW kit tonight, and I'll test with that and post the results, since I know it'll be far more accurate.

Oh, you asked me a while back if I had any pics of my reef tank. I remodeled the reef tank in February and converted it from a primarily soft coral system to a stony coral system. Here's a thread that details with lots of pics:
http://www.reefmonkey.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=3671
I also have a 5.5 nano reef with a mantis shrimp, but you can find that link. There's a bit of naughty language in that thread, so I don't want to get into trouble for linking to it. 



Marilyn1998 said:


> As far as the neons, they dont live as long in the higher temps as cardinals. They will be fine tho. You may want cards when replacing them.
> 
> 
> And I LOVE your tank!!! I am thinking of removing my pebble size gravel. What substrate are you using??


Yeah, I knew that when I added them. I just wanted a good dither fish for the discus, and I wanted something that would school as well. We've had problems with our supplier for neon cardinals...most would not survive. We've since changed suppliers, so hopefully we'll have studier specimens when it's time to replace the neon tetras.

As far as my substrate goes, it's 50 lbs of the finer "red flint". I used a bunch of Flourish tabs to supplement it. I'll probably wish I used some Eco-Complete or Flourite.

Thanks, I'm really happy with how everything is shaping together. Now, we'll just have to wait and see how it goes longterm. I used to love having live plants around, but I don't get the right light in my apartment, so I've had to forego that hobby. This tank is definitely helping me satisfy the plant urge, even if space is limited. One thing I've noticed already is that you can see results much faster in a FW planted take compared to a reef tank. Waiting for stony corals to grow is as bad as watching the corn grow back home! 



magicmagni said:


> I'm glad you set up a second yeast reactor. Co2 is the most important nutrient on most tanks. If you look at the dry weight of an aquatic plant the majority of it is carbon so this is why carbon injection is so important. Now plants can get carbon from other sources in difference ways, but under higher light the carbon demand usually exceeds these sources Most folks look at Co2 last, but it is really the first thing to get in check. Then your macros, then your micros. Once the CO2 is at least 30ppm you should be OK. You can use the charts but they are not always accurate so always use plant growth and fish behavior as a primary indicator. Put air bubbles on at night to help the Discus to breath and to keep DO levels at reasonable levels and is cheap insurance in the event plant growth stops and photosynthesis stops.
> 
> ....One thing is for sure. You may not need very much potassium nitrate. The fish may provide all you need even? You'll have to experiment to find what dosing levels work for your tank, but I think about half the amount you posted would be a better starting point. Everything else should be ok.


Yeah, I knew that one reactor wasn't going to cut it. However, since I added it, I'm getting no CO2 bubbles! I don't know what's wrong. The first one was adding a nice-sized bubble every 7 seconds, but now that I tied it in, I'm getting nothing, and I don't notice any leaks at the T connection. Hmmm...I'm going to take the second one off, and see if they work individually. If both work independently, then I'll just keep the first one on the diffuser ladder, and the second one I'll hook up to the intake of the canister filter. I've read that CO2 on the intake of the canister isn't ideal since it can eat through o-rings, but this will hopefully be a temp fix. It's looking like I'll be able to get a pressurized CO2 system.

I'll test everything again tonight and post the results. For my first dose of potassium nitrate, I'll cut it back to 1/4 tsp and go from there. I suppose it'll all depend on what my nitrate levels are to begin with.

Oh, and magicmani, if I'm not mistaken, I think I remember reading in your 125 thread that you run your lights 16 hours a day to lower the risk of too much CO2 at night. Is that true? I'm running my lights about 12-14 hours a day now.

Thanks again everyone for your feedback and responses. You're a knowledgeable, friendly, and encouraging bunch of people.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Happy 4th everyone!

Ok, here are my test results:

pH: 7.2 
GH: 9° dH 
KH: 6° dH
CO2: 11 ppm

I used a Tetra test kit to get these results and I used Chuck's Planted Aquarium Calculator to determine my CO2 levels. It says 11 ppm is good, but that's not the 30 ppm that Jeff (magicmani) is suggesting.


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> got my stocking advice from reading Jack Watley (book and column in TFH). He recommends a 20 for two adult discus, I didn't make that up myself


You gotta be kidding! I have a real hard time believing that. Not that I am calling you a liar, but you must have read it wrong. Jack is an old pro, and he knows you could not even fit two adult Discus in a 20.

BTW, the following plants are North American plants that prefer lower temps, on your list,

Didiplis
Eleocharis
Ludwigia repens

Cabomba furcata actually prefers soft water, so that may be a good choice


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I had the Nutrafin ladder. It worked ok for my 20 gallon. I recently got a bell type glass diffuser. My plants are now growing much better and my slight algae problem is abating. My CO2 went from 11 PPM to about 30 PPM. Those big bubbles in the ladder just get wasted going to the top. The fine bubbles a diffuser generals is 100x better. Do yourself a favour and get one of those. Or better yet, get two of them and put one on each end of the tank with a bottle on each. Then you can rotate changing the mix.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Robert H said:


> You gotta be kidding! I have a real hard time believing that. Not that I am calling you a liar, but you must have read it wrong. Jack is an old pro, and he knows you could not even fit two adult Discus in a 20.


Well, it's kinda impossible to misread the following from the February 2006 "Ask Jack" column from TFH:

Reader writes in and asks if Jack has heard of any plans to breed compact hybrids of discus....the reader would like to keep discus, but feels that he doesn't have enough space available. Jack dismisses the idea of of a discus hybrid, but he writes the following:

"You didn't say how much tank space you have available, but if it is sufficient for a 20-gallon aquarium, you can easily house two adult discus. And if you're fortunate and the dice roll your way, the two fish might be a nice pair--the result being more space necessary for the young discus, which I'm sure you'd be able to accomodate in some manner...."

He also writes about a 29 gallon tank for discus in the May 2005 "Ask Jack" column in TFH:

"Your 29-gallon tank will probably end up with about 25 actual gallons of water, which would be suitable for no more than three adult or semi-adult discus, plus six cardinal tetras or four rams, and your present three Corydoras catfish."

So, there you go. I don't know how it's possible to read that wrong. Don't get me wrong, I knew right away once I had two discus in a 20 that it wasn't going to work, and that's why I upgraded within six weeks.

BTW, thanks for the head's up on the American species on my plant list.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

2wheelsx2 said:


> I had the Nutrafin ladder. It worked ok for my 20 gallon. I recently got a bell type glass diffuser. My plants are now growing much better and my slight algae problem is abating. My CO2 went from 11 PPM to about 30 PPM. Those big bubbles in the ladder just get wasted going to the top. The fine bubbles a diffuser generals is 100x better. Do yourself a favour and get one of those. Or better yet, get two of them and put one on each end of the tank with a bottle on each. Then you can rotate changing the mix.


Thanks, from my understanding, the glass diffusers are better than the ladder-type diffusers. Strange thing, when I had both bottles tied in together, no CO2 would reach the tank, but when I hooked them up individually, they would work. Maybe I needed a couple of check valves or something? Anyways, I kept one hooked up to the ladder diffuser, and I hooked up the other one to the intake of my canister filter. I read that this is a good way to dissolve the CO2 in the tank.

I'm definitely going to be going with a pressurized CO2 system, and I might use a CO2 reactor as well to dissolve the CO2. I'm just waiting to see how long with will take my job to get one in for me.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Cool. My 20 gallon isn't big enough to justify pressurized (yet) CO2, but you'll love it.

The only caveat to injecting the CO2 into the intake of the canister was concerns about erosions of the seals because of the carbonic acid formed, and possibly wear on the impeller because of cavitation. But these were just speculation as far as I could tell, and there have been no documented cases of actual occurrences that I could find online.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, my yeast reactors are only generating one bubble every 8-10 seconds, so I figure one reactor fed into the canister isn't going to be a big deal. But, that will all soon be water under the bridge.

I ordered a Milwaukee CO2 regulator with selonoid, needle valve, and bubble counter through work, and I'm picking up a CO2 cylinder locally. I'm still trying to figure out what I need to use to diffuse the CO2...maybe one of those glass diffusers, or I might set up a CO2 reactor. I should get the regulator next week, and I'll be good to go.


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## daveonbass (Nov 12, 2005)

the diffuser will work for you till you can afford to make or buy a CO2 reactor. If you wait on the reactor then I think it will be better since you can then SEE what it is you'll need to do to hook it up to the OUTFLOW of your canister filter...
That way you're up and running right now, and can upgrade later with little mess.


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## Gerald the Mouse (Jun 19, 2006)

I'm pretty sure the white stuff on your wood is fungus, not algae, and it is okay if your fish eat it.


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

I've seen stuff that resembles those on your wood on my new wood before and apparently,they were some secretionsn from the wood itself but they go off after awhile.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> No idea how old they are. The red turquoise and the blue diamond had been at the store since mid-March, and I bought them sometime in May. The red blood pigeon came in to the store in mid-May. I feed them once-twice a day.
> 
> Don't laugh, I used one of those "Quick-Dip" tests to get last night's reading. I didn't want to use my expensive Salifert test kits. I picked up a Tetra Master FW kit tonight, and I'll test with that and post the results, since I know it'll be far more accurate.
> 
> ...


They still look like they are growing. Try to feed them more often then you would with another fish. I would say at least twice a day.

I saw some test strips that gave readings in ppm. Im never sure how people come to these numbers. I wont laugh. 

How do you like your handheld pH meter? I could probably find it but id skip looking and just ask.You reef tank is incredible. 

Your pics and post you linked are really cool. Your stuff looks really nice. I really like that pic of that coral that looks like a brain....II bet that cost a fortune. I really want a reef tank but they cost so much.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Well, my yeast reactors are only generating one bubble every 8-10 seconds, so I figure one reactor fed into the canister isn't going to be a big deal. But, that will all soon be water under the bridge.
> 
> I ordered a Milwaukee CO2 regulator with selonoid, needle valve, and bubble counter through work, and I'm picking up a CO2 cylinder locally. I'm still trying to figure out what I need to use to diffuse the CO2...maybe one of those glass diffusers, or I might set up a CO2 reactor. I should get the regulator next week, and I'll be good to go.



HEHE! Before you were saying no pressurized...then you added two DIY bottles...now a pressurized co2 setup is on its way!!!!

SOMEBODY HELP THIS GUY BEFORE ITS TOO LATE!!!

:thumbsup: This is very similar to what happened to me. Sorry to joke so much.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

daveonbass said:


> the diffuser will work for you till you can afford to make or buy a CO2 reactor. If you wait on the reactor then I think it will be better since you can then SEE what it is you'll need to do to hook it up to the OUTFLOW of your canister filter...
> That way you're up and running right now, and can upgrade later with little mess.


Yeah, I'm probably going to just use the diffuser ladder that I have for now and upgrade to an inline CO2 reactor later. The spending has got to come to an end soon. I know, I know...I said that before the new lights and the pressurized CO2 system, LOL. I know that I'll probably waste more CO2 in the bubble ladder thingie, but refills are cheap. As long as I can get my CO2 levels to 30 ppm, I'll be happy.



Gerald the Mouse said:


> I'm pretty sure the white stuff on your wood is fungus, not algae, and it is okay if your fish eat it.


Do you mean the stuff growing in this pic?










If so, I think the pic is misleading since the colors have been washed out by the bright lights. My camera skills still aren't what they should be. I have this algae growing everywhere now: on the wood, plants, etc. I'll post a pic to show everyone and get some advice on how to remove it.

I know that driftwood can sometimes seep sap, which is white in color. But mine was completely bone dry and had been sitting around the store for over a year before I added it to my tank.



Brilliant said:


> How do you like your handheld pH meter?...
> 
> ... HEHE! Before you were saying no pressurized...then you added two DIY bottles...now a pressurized co2 setup is on its way!!!!
> 
> ...


I like my handheld pH meter ok...I kinda wish I'd gone with a pH controller, so I would have it already if and when I add a calcium reactor to my reef tank. However, this was around $60, and the controllers are much more expensive. The only drawback is that I have to recalibrate it every so often, and I get lazy. Also, I can't use it on my reef tank and then use it on my planted tank. For saltwater, you have to calibrate it for high-range pH readings, and for freshwater, you have to calibrate it for low-range pH readings, at least that is my understanding. Hmmm...now that I think about it, I think I'm going to try my handheld on my planted tank with it calibrated for high-end pH readings, and double-check it with my test kit. If they match, then I'll be good to go. Mine is a Milwaukee pH tester pen that I got from Premium Aquatics. Here's a link:
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/Merc...Product_Code=MIL-PH51&Category_Code=Milwaukee

Thanks for the compliment on my reef tank. I'm having issues with SPS corals right now, but I think I just need to wait for my tank to stabilize..it's only been since February since I redid everything. The brain-looking thingie is a metallic green favia colony.

Haha...I know, I need help. I've been like a kid in the candy store! My eyes are definitely bigger than my wallet!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

*Help with Algae!!!*

Ok, so I cleaned off my plants a couple of days ago, and now they look like this. 



















What type of nuisance algae is this? Can you identify it? Please spell out the full names since I don't know what the acronyms stand for yet. What can I do to get rid of it? Should I just remove the plants and scrub/wash it off? Do I need to use a bleach dip (but not for the anacharis, cause I know they don't tolerate that). What proportion of bleach should I use to water? Should I keep on dosing my dry ferts?

My test results from tonight show that my pH is 7.3 and my alk (KH) is 5, so that gives me a CO2 of 8 ppm. If I can get my pH down to 6.7 with a KH of 5, that would give me 30 ppm. Should I do a series of large water changes to get my pH down? Do I need to reduce my lighting cycle? My CO2 pressure system won't be here until next week, unfortunately. 

Sorry for all the questions, but I'd hate to lose all these plants because of this algae. Thanks in advance for your input!


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Ok, so I cleaned off my plants a couple of days ago, and now they look like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I had algae like that. It was in my 90g. Different kind of algae I got in my 65g. I scraped it from the walls, removed what I could then ran a diatom filter. I also had lights off for about three days because I had to swap out this new fixture I purchased....a combination of those three things and now I dont have it any more. I did see a tiny buildup on the centers of the side glass but it doesnt look like this fast growing stringy stuff....just the normal green stuff....sorry to get all technical on you.

A technique I tried was to rid the "root" of this algae. After physically removing it once I saw it came back from certain areas. I did a better job removing the leftovers in these areas after the physical removal. Mine wasnt so intertwined into the plants like yours is...I have to credit the lights being off for the removal of mine off the plants. I only scrubbed a rock, the spraybar and heater.

Basically...I would try to remove as much as possible. Removing any hardscape and scrubbing the sources of algae with a toothbrush or something. Then turn the light off or reduce lighting. My sunsets, swords and vals are just fine after three days with no light on. I have sunlight and other lit tanks so this wasnt really a blackout.

I wouldnt consider ferts being a problem. Your testing right? I thought ferts were going to boost my algae problems...thats why they got worse. What are you dosing and how much? I am no expert, I am sure someone will chime in.

I am never going to disagree with someone when they say they want to do more water changes  
I dont really know how much your changing but if your spidey sense tells you its not enough then its not enough.

I have that same pH tester. I was really upset because I needed to calibrate it....but after reading about it, this seems normal. It took me a while to find a screwdriver to calibrate it.


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## daveonbass (Nov 12, 2005)

check ot my thread...get it thread...like the algae...anyways. I got some good advice from people and the tank looks SOOOOO much better now. If one thing didn't work I tried another...and another till the stuff started to clear up...truth be told they probably all had an effect, just some more than others. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/32405-ok-new-problem-pics.html

1. I attribute most of the success to Water changes (WC). I was doing 50% water change ever other day...mainly to REMOVE the stuff and not just to fix the water. 
2. Then there was the little trick I started trying of wisking a net (fish net) around the tank for about ten minutes before a WC. This netting would dislodge a lot of the big LONG strands and I could get them in clumps a lot easier. A 10 gallon water change after that would have been fine I think But as long as I'm wet I usually go for more. 
3. I FINALLY got my ferts straitened out. I finally realize just how crucial this is. And it's not the hardest thing to do. I use sechem...more expensive but it's already liquid and it has dosing instructon that are simple...ie. If Xgallons, then Ymg (10mg per capful). I would round up...since most of the time my glosso is picky and I'd rather have extra ferts for all the light I got. 
4. I got a lot of light...so there I was lucky. I totally recommend "tricitytropicals.com" they sell refurbished lights at LOW prices, and when you get them it's like a brand new item...still shinny even. But I also swapped out any actinic bulbs for 6700 bulbs...the 10000K to 6700K has worked wonders for me. 
5. I started adding more CO2...yes I added MORE of everything to get RID of my hair algae. I was going to try to push the CO2 till the fish started getting antsy at the surface and then lower it again...But they never did get to that point and the tank seems balanced now...so I'm just gonna leave it where it's at. And not stress the fish if I don't have to. 
6. Once it was starting to clear up a little. I was told that black mollies eat the stuff...So I got some. and a twig catfish as I call it. and they started going to town on it as soon as I put them in. Even if you decide to take them out when their done they DID get rid of it for me...so I'm gonna let them hang around for good. 

So there is my 6 point plan I guess. Again I think that "everything" was a contributing factor...Though I'm sure some were more helpful than others...but still now it's a more balanced eco system...and the tank is pearling like never before. 

Now I just need my discus. Anyone know any shops near me that sell them.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> My test results from tonight show that my pH is 7.3 and my alk (KH) is 5, so that gives me a CO2 of 8 ppm. If I can get my pH down to 6.7 with a KH of 5, that would give me 30 ppm. Should I do a series of large water changes to get my pH down? Do I need to reduce my lighting cycle? My CO2 pressure system won't be here until next week, unfortunately.


Doing water changes are going to change the pH, but not going to increase your CO2, unfortunately. THe chart assumes constant parameters other than CO2 injection to lower pH. So if you do water changes, it alters the pH only because of dilution, and not because of any CO2 changes.

Just be patient, and wait for the pressurized CO2. In the meantime, you might want to cut down the light and do like the others have said, which is to manually remove as much as possible.


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Here are some suggestions I have learned from experience:
1. Small Discus need fed quite often at 86 degrees (higher tamps = faster metabolism = fish need more food) Even as adults they need fed more than once daily.
2. At Discus tank temps pressurized CO2 is needed to control algae (difficult to tweak your CO2 saturation with DIY).
3. At higher temps plants are like fish, they want to grow faster = plants need more light/ferts/CO2. Check your setup and make sure it is adequate.
4. Most plants will grow in a Discus tank, I am growing many of the plants listed in this thread as not recommended. The plants I had most difficulty growing were swords.
5. Get plants from hobbyists that are growing plants at the temps you maintain, it was much easier for me to acclimate plants that came from an 84 degree tank than a 76 degree tank.
6. Make sure the heater you have is capable of raising and maintaining the tank temp to 90 degrees plus.
7. Use 100% RO and monitor TDS daily, mandatory for a planted Discus tank IMO. You will hear it is not needed for a planted tank. You will hear it is not needed for a Discus tank. But IMO, with a planted Discus tank you will have happier/healthier Discus/plants using RO.
8. Your tank size is fine, concentrate on creating a balanced environment for your Discus. Your Discus will be better off in a small tank with pristine water than a large tank with marginal water. Priority is not on swimming room but on environment. It will be a challenge for you keeping that tank in pristine shape with plants and juvie Discus. Nothing is more satisfying than having a thriving planted tank with a school of happy Discus. 
8. Join the Simply Discus forum.
Good Luck....DC


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

DiabloCanine said:


> Here are some suggestions I have learned from experience:
> 1. Small Discus need fed quite often at 86 degrees (higher tamps = faster metabolism = fish need more food) Even as adults they need fed more than once daily.
> 2. At Discus tank temps pressurized CO2 is needed to control algae (difficult to tweak your CO2 saturation with DIY).
> 3. At higher temps plants are like fish, they want to grow faster = plants need more light/ferts/CO2. Check your setup and make sure it is adequate.
> ...



I like your style. :hihi: I wonder how you put up with that forum.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for all your suggestions guys, I appreciate it. It's amazing as to how fast this stuff grows. 

Ok, this will be my present course of action:

1)water changes: I've been doing 50% weekly water changes....I will increase that to 3 times a week.

2)manual removal of algae: time to get out the toothbrush and clean the plants and driftwood.

3)ferts: I'll keep up my dosing of fertilizers. I just started dosing them this week. I was just worried that since my CO2 system isn't here yet, that maybe the ferts were fueling the algae.

4)CO2: nothing I can do but keep my DIY yeast reactors going and wait for my pressurized system to get here. In the meantime, I'll just keep up with my water changes/fert dosing. I picked up a 10 lb CO2 cylinder today, but my regulator won't get here until next week.

From what I've read from your recommendations and the thread daveonbass pointed me to, this stuff will eventually choke itself out/go away once the ferts/CO2 are in balance. In the meantime, it's time to get my hands slimy.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Oh, do I really need a pH controller? Will a timer work just as well?


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Oh, do I really need a pH controller? Will a timer work just as well?


I use a timer


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## Robert H (Apr 3, 2003)

> You didn't say how much tank space you have available, but if it is sufficient for a 20-gallon aquarium, you can easily house two adult discus. And if you're fortunate and the dice roll your way, the two fish might be a nice pair--the result being more space necessary for the young discus, which I'm sure you'd be able to accomodate in some manner...."


That is just insane. I have now lost all respect for Wattley. It just goes to show even so called experts can have water on the brain.



> At higher temps plants are like fish, they want to grow faster = plants need more light/ferts/CO2. Check your setup and make sure it is adequate.


Sorry, that is not true. It is quite the opposite. Many plants have a significant slower growth rate at temps above 80, regardless of C02 or ferts. Some will not grow at all or they go into dormancey, such as Aponogetons, (madagascar lace in particular) The easiest way to kill or shorten the life of a lace plant is to put it in warm water. The optimum temp for all plants in general is the mid 70s or lower. Water with temps over 80 also have less useable Co2 or any other gas. Tom Barr was just talking about this recently. You do not want to go against the Barr Nation do you?


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Robert H said:


> That is just insane. I have now lost all respect for Wattley. It just goes to show even so called experts can have water on the brain.


LOL, water on the brain, or just money? I found it interesting that on the opposite page of Jack Wattley's column in THF, there is always a full, one-page ad for his discus. 

Well, my algae doesn't look quite as bad as it did last night when I took that picture, but it's still bad enough. I went ahead with my regularly scheduled dose of ferts. I removed a little bit, but I'll attack it with full force when I get off of work tomorrow. I had a dinner party tonight, so the stuffed baked brie got my attention instead. That, and the red wine. Funny thing was, I was so embarassed for my friends to see my new tank because of the algae on the leaves, and they didn't even notice, and that was before the wine!


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## DiabloCanine (Aug 26, 2005)

Sir, did my post come across that I was against anyone? I believe I used the phrases "In my experience (my tank pics are linked to my sig)" and "most plants", neither are absolute. Are you going against the Wattley Nation with your comments?. Just curious, do you think a 125 gallon tank is too small for 22 Discus?...DC




Robert H said:


> That is just insane. I have now lost all respect for Wattley. It just goes to show even so called experts can have water on the brain.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, that is not true. It is quite the opposite. Many plants have a significant slower growth rate at temps above 80, regardless of C02 or ferts. Some will not grow at all or they go into dormancey, such as Aponogetons, (madagascar lace in particular) The easiest way to kill or shorten the life of a lace plant is to put it in warm water. The optimum temp for all plants in general is the mid 70s or lower. Water with temps over 80 also have less useable Co2 or any other gas. Tom Barr was just talking about this recently. You do not want to go against the Barr Nation do you?


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Robert H said:


> That is just insane. I have now lost all respect for Wattley. It just goes to show even so called experts can have water on the brain.


Well I think this is minimum requirements for keeping specimen tanks. This starts to get a little different when your catching wild Discus or importing them from the wild. Keep in mind this person you lost all respect for is probably responsible for the Discus in everyones tanks.

I do think this quoted article is taken out of text a little bit this should not be used as guidelines for a Discus show tank.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I posted the issue dates of the "Ask Jack" columns in TFH, so please go check yourselves and decide how I quoted Mr. Wattley out of context. I am just repeating what I read, then I get told I didn't read it correctly, so I quote it, and now I'm quoting out of context. It's really quite simple to read. I just think we all need to be aware that these sort of recommendations are out there, and they're being disseminated by one of the largest names in the discus hobby, so we shouldn't be too surprised if someone shows up on a tank forum following his advice.

But, we're so beyond the two discus in a 20 gallon tank...that was page one of this thread. I'm trying to deal with hair algae now. LOL


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Well, I posted the issue dates of the "Ask Jack" columns in TFH, so please go check yourselves and decide how I quoted Mr. Wattley out of context. I am just repeating what I read, then I get told I didn't read it correctly, so I quote it, and now I'm quoting out of context. It's really quite simple to read. I just think we all need to be aware that these sort of recommendations are out there, and they're being disseminated by one of the largest names in the discus hobby, so we shouldn't be too surprised if someone shows up on a tank forum following his advice.
> 
> But, we're so beyond the two discus in a 20 gallon tank...that was page one of this thread. I'm trying to deal with hair algae now. LOL


LOL I know your not suggesting putting the Discus into 20g.
Sorry to continue the ship offcourse. I think that breeding the Discus is a different story as far as tank size goes. There are different guidelines for different situations hence my input that it was out of text (I guess I meant context). This is a planted show tank we are talking about not a tank for spawning pair.

Did you turn the lights off?


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

No, I haven't tried turning the lights off yet, or a complete blackout. I did reduce the photoperiod. From my understanding, this is going to be an ongoing battle of algae growing, me yanking it out until my CO2 system is set up. Then, hopefully, between the CO2 and the ferts, the algae will be choked out.

That said, I must say that the algae isn't quite as bad as it was, so maybe the ferts are doing their job?

Also, I'm thinking of picking up 3 otos...would that be a good combination to go with 2 Siamese Algae Eaters?


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## dandestroy (Jun 25, 2006)

mystery # 3 is definitively a nymphaea zenkeri red (lotus red)

http://www.aquabase.org/plant/view.php3?id=68

Its either very young, or got trimmed to evolved in a dwarf growth


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Sorry to go offcourse again but I just saw your posts over at reefmonkey. I am going to read more. I hope to start a nano reef tank in like 3-4 months. I will probably hit you up for some advice if thats ok.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

dandestroy said:


> mystery # 3 is definitively a nymphaea zenkeri red (lotus red)
> 
> http://www.aquabase.org/plant/view.php3?id=68
> 
> Its either very young, or got trimmed to evolved in a dwarf growth


Merci pour le lien au site-web, j'ai appris beaucoup sur cette plante. J'adore les lotus, mais mon dieu, c'est un monstre!

Ok, I have a question about the species you linked me to and the one in my tank. I actually added a _nymphae zeneri_ aka red lotus to my tank since I last posted a full tank pic. I know these things grow huge, but I couldn't resist. I figure I can keep the roots trimmed, and when and if it grows too big, I will sell it back.

Here is the red lotus I added a couple of days ago, and it looks dead-on identical to the red lotus on the web page you linked me to:










The plant you are saying is a red lotus looked like this when I first added it to the tank:










However, it's undergone some significant changes in the last week. At first, I thought I was going to lose it because the water was too warm--it became very "limp." But when I look at it now, I can see some similarities to the first pic I'm posting in this post (the one I know that is definitely a red lotus):










While I thought the plant was going limp, it appears to be laying like the red lotus. Also, the leaves are starting to change their shape and are becoming wider. In fact, you can see some of the markings that are quite similar to the red lotus in the first pic:

Here's a close-up of a leaf. Sorry for the quality, I bumped the tripod as I took this shot:










So, is this an identical species to the first red lotus pic I posted, or is it a different color variety? Or, do I just have a juvie plant that is going to turn into a second big monster?




Brilliant said:


> Sorry to go offcourse again but I just saw your posts over at reefmonkey. I am going to read more. I hope to start a nano reef tank in like 3-4 months. I will probably hit you up for some advice if thats ok.


No worries, that's the fun of these sorta threads...we can go off on tangents whenever we want. No problem, I'd be happy to help you out since Lord knows you've been kind enough to endure all my newbie questions.

Also, I wanted to add that I went ahead and added some otos to my tank. I added three, but it would have been four if I hadn't of actually killed the fourth one. After acclimation, I released them from the bag. I thought I had released all four, and I wadded up the bag and went to throw it away. Only when I was standing in front of the trashcan did I realize that I missed one oto still in the bag. I added it to the tank, but it didn't make it. Oops, I'm an idiot and a murderer! I feel bad, but at least I only paid $0.75 and not $75. I believe my species is _otocinclus vittatus_, but it might be the regular _o. affinis_. I'm not really sure, the pics in the fish atlas at the store look identical to the _vittatus_. In any case, from what I read, they grow identical in size, and they are both excellent algae grazers from the leaves of plants. They are in heaven right now in my tank. I'm wondering if I should add any more? That is, provided I don't murder any new ones.

Also, I added two amano shrimp. I searched far in wide while working tonight at the LFS and I found two that were hiding in the planted tanks. I'd like a few more, but I literally found the last two. They're pretty cool looking shrimp; they remind me a lot of saltwater peppermint shrimp (at least to my colorblind eyes). I know my discus may eat them when they get older, but they have plenty of plant cover and I keep my discus well-fed. If they do get eaten, well, that's why it's called a food chain.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I've had a real fun Saturday night. A friend came over, and she helped me take most of the plants out and remove the algae from their leaves. Yes, we both need a life and/or a date, LOL! We got almost all of it (all except for some on the tips of the italian val--that stuff is hard to remove from that plant). It wasn't as bad as it was in the pics I posted earlier. Perhaps the second yeast reactor is helping a bit, the ferts are starting to make a difference, and/or it is just cyling out on its own. Hopefully, with a fresh, clean start, the three otos, two SAE, and two amano shrimp can keep it in check until I get my pressurized CO2 hooked up--hopefully Monday night if it gets here.

I also did a 50% water change...all RO/DI water. I also siphoned out a bunch of mulm. I know a little is good for a planted tank, but not the discus--gotta keep that water as clean as possible. I really wish I had a Python, but when you're using RO water, it really doesn't help that much.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, here are some pics I took after the water change. Gotta love insomnia....work in a few hours is gonna suck! LOL I hope I'm not boring y'all with my pics.

Here's a full tank shot:










I just fed the fish about 20 minutes before I took these pics, so they are busy foraging the ground for food. I'd love to have my entire foreground covered in spreading low plants, but I know that's not ideal for discus with their feeding habits. You can see that the hair algae is much better, but it's still not 100%. I hope to get there soon.

Blue Diamond Discus:










I'm in love with the color of this fish. She is so bright to my colorblind eyes. 

Red Pigeon Blood Discus:










I've always considered this fish to be the ugly-duckling of the tank, but she's really starting to grow on me, and the red is starting to become more pronounced as she grows. I'm really curious to see what her colors will metamorphose into as she gets bigger.

Blue Diamond and Pigeon hunting together:










A couple of shots with just the actinic lights on:


















I usually let the actinics run for 15-30 minutes before bedtime for the tank. I think it creates a nice dawn/dusk effect, and it really brings out the color of the discus. I guess the reef geek in me likes the actinic look. Even without the actinics, I still have 2.5 watts/gallon. If I switched the actinic bulbs in the PC and T5 fixtures, I'd have almost 5 watts/gallon, but I don't think that's necessary.

I've also decided to name my discus. I generally have gone with the principle, "If you name it, it will die," but these guys are just too cute to not name. So, I'm naming them Dorothy, Sophia, Rose, and Blanche--yes, after the Golden Girls! Dorothy and Sophia are the Red Turquoise because they are the same species, and they're kinda mean to the other two. Dorothy is the bigger of the two Red Turquoise. I'm starting to wonder if they're becoming a pair because they do chase off the other two at feeding time. But, there's still enough food to go around. The Red Pigeon Blood Discus is Rose because she's kinda stupid--food will float right past her mouth and she'll miss it. And finally, the Blue Diamond is Blanche because she's so pretty, and she "flirts" with me, so I've determined her to be the slut of the tank.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

What are you some kind of magician? 
Holy cow nice job giving the algae the boot. I wish I had the balls to take pics of my tank when it was algafied.
I really like the names of your Discus...LOL


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## daveonbass (Nov 12, 2005)

where did you get your discus? those look good. Did you order them or do you have a LFS that sell them?


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

You dwarf hairgrass will eventually cover your foreground, even if you are not trying, once you get pressurized CO2, so I wouldn't worry about that part. :thumbsup:


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

daveonbass said:


> where did you get your discus? those look good. Did you order them or do you have a LFS that sell them?


I picked them up at the LFS where I work. I'm not sure where the Red Turquoise came from (they were already at the store when I started working), and I know the Blue Diamond and the Red Pigeon Blood came from a general freshwater wholesaler. The Red Turquoise probably did too. I got them for a little over $10 each with my discount, so I figure that's a good deal. I don't really care that they aren't "designer" discus, lol. The nice thing was that I was able to observe these guys for a very long time at the store before I brought them home. I chose the ones I thought to be the healthiest.



Brilliant said:


> What are you some kind of magician?
> Holy cow nice job giving the algae the boot. I wish I had the balls to take pics of my tank when it was algafied.
> I really like the names of your Discus...LOL


I wish it were magic, it took about an hour of scrubbing. It was actually pretty easy to remove; all I had to do was swish the plants around in a bucket and the algae came right off. I had no idea as to what type of algae I'm dealing with, so I thought the best idea was to post some pics to get some feedback. 

I'm glad you like the names...I think they're a good fit.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I can remember looking at a Weiss price list on those Blue Diamonds and gulping at the (!)$900 price tag. Now everybody and his brother has a solid blue.

I like the ones you don't have close-ups - the red turqs.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Damn, $900 for a fish? Wow! I'll try to get a close-up of the Red Turqs, but someone needs to come tell them to sit still for a moment so I can snap a pic.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Damn, $900 for a fish? Wow! I'll try to get a close-up of the Red Turqs, but someone needs to come tell them to sit still for a moment so I can snap a pic.


Look at this young Red Pigeon Blood from the number one breeder in the country.


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

Love the look of your discus fish,esp the blue diamond,the colours really stand out with the actinic lights on. A pity my tank doesn't have such a light installed or i would be able to better admire the colours of my red turquoise.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, the thing is, I know the actinics don't do anything for the plants. Fortunately, I have enough 10K light without the actinics that I think the plants will be ok. I'm just curious as to whether running the actinics with the 10K at the same time will have any long-term impacts on the plants.

I got my CO2 regulator today--woo hoo! I'll hook it up tonight. Quick question, when I bought my CO2 cylinder, I asked the guys at the welding shop if I needed to use plumber's tape on the stem of the CO2 cylinder when I installed the regulator. I was told it wasn't necessary as long as I have the plastic o-ring. Well, my unit came with o-rings, but the instructions say I should still use plumber's tape. I think I'll go ahead and use the plumber's tape on the cylinder, unless someone chimes in with a good reason not to.


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## Gerald the Mouse (Jun 19, 2006)

$10 bucks per discus would be dirt cheap around here, the lowest I have seen them for here is a good 40 bucks.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Gerald the Mouse said:


> $10 bucks per discus would be dirt cheap around here, the lowest I have seen them for here is a good 40 bucks.


Once I became a dissertator, I wanted to do something that would get me out of the house before I went crazy from reading all the time. So, nothing better than playing with fish tanks, getting paid something for it, and getting an incredibly good discount. 

I'm happy to report that I got my pressurized CO2 system hooked up tonight! Here's a pic of it:










It's a 10 lb CO2 cylinder with a Milwaukee regulator, selonoid, and bubble counter. I know, I know...the Milwaukee regulators aren't very good, but to put this together, I had to get what was available to me through work so I could afford it. Getting the bubble count to 1 bps was kinda tricky, but I finally got it set and managed to not blow up anything.

I'm still using the Hagen ladder diffuser until I figure out what my CO2 levels will be with this system. I'll either then setup a CO2 reactor, or maybe get a glass diffuser. I checked out the ADA glass diffusers--holy crap, _ça casse les couilles!_

So, when and how do I know that the CO2 cylinder is getting empty? What do I need to look for? From my understanding, when the CO2 gets too low in the cylinder, it will dump the remaining CO2 into the tank, which can be quite detrimental.


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

See the two meters on your CO2 valve,the ones that have a needle inside? They are the CO2 meters and all you need to do is to observe them.If i am right,one of the meters measures the pressure within the canister and the other measures the pressure within the valve itself.So when the needle is about to hit zero,it is time to top up the CO2.I am not sure about the dumping of the remaining CO2 when the cylinder is about to get empty though,i always leave mine to empty by itself and there hasn't been an incident so far.

Also i am not sure about how topping up a cylinder works over there where u live. But over here,empty cylinders can either be exchanged for full ones on a one to one basis or a grace period of about 3days will be needed for them to top up the original empty cylinder. That is why i have another smaller cylnder on standby incase i cannot get the one to one exchange deal and have to wait 3days without CO2 for my tank.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Cool, thanks. I thought I read somewhere that you have to be careful when the CO2 cylinder gets close to empty, but I might be pulling that outta my butt. I've read so much info as of late, so I might be confusing that with something else.

I have my lights and CO2 system on a timer, so the CO2 goes off when the lights go off, and comes on when the lights come on.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Cool, thanks. I thought I read somewhere that you have to be careful when the CO2 cylinder gets close to empty, but I might be pulling that outta my butt. I've read so much info as of late, so I might be confusing that with something else.
> 
> I have my lights and CO2 system on a timer, so the CO2 goes off when the lights go off, and comes on when the lights come on.


Well according to what ive read this is a myth if you are using a quality regulator with a needle valve. Either way its good to refill the tank as soon as you see a drop in pressure.

Just keep tabs on that bubble count over the next few days. You will most likely encounter any leaks...or unstable flow issues with the regulator in the next few days. Hopefully you will be able to get consistent flow from the unit.

HeHe now that I know your Discus were 10 bucks I can bust on them. :icon_evil


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Gawain1974 said:


> Damn, $900 for a fish? Wow! I'll try to get a close-up of the Red Turqs, but someone needs to come tell them to sit still for a moment so I can snap a pic.


You have to realize this was some 14 years ago<g>. The vast majority of discus at that point were some flavor of red turq - some just had more blue than red so were called turqs. Interestingly enough, one of the breeders Weiss represented was working on a line with vertical striations. Don't know whatever became of that but the example they pictured in the ad looked like he had blue zebra stripes.

The pidgeon blood is...interesting. I cannot wrap myself around some of the newer colors available now, particularly anything white or yellowish. Part of it is due to the Discus' shape which I feel in the white and yellow looks like nothing more than a funny swimming flounder filet. So shoot me. My dream tank would contain a school of Heckels.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

So, can I bore you with a few more pics?

I think the slimy hair algae problem is under control. The last time I cleaned off the plants manually, the slimy stuff was back in a day. It's going on four days now, and no signs...knock on wood.

I tested my water last night, and got the following results:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 12.5
pH 6.9 (down from 7.3-7.4)...I guess the CO2 is doing it's trick
KH: 4
CO2: 15 ppm; I'd like this to be higher, but the system has only been running for 24 hours. 

When I cleaned my plants off last time, I trimmed the sunset hygro and the red cabomba and replanted the trimmings. Are you supposed to trim from the roots? I just picked off the tops and planted those. The trimmings are growing fast and the bottoms are growing as well and you can't tell where I trimmed them.

Red Cabomba:










The color is pretty decent, and the stems are somewhat bushier. This is supposed to be RED cabomba, but it looks rather greenish-yellow to my colorblind eyes. What's up with that?

Sunset Hygro:










This stuff has grown the most since Saturday. It's not reaching the top of the water.

A full-tank shot from 7/9 followed by one this morning:


















Not too bad for three days.

Someone asked for a pic of the Red Turquoise. I tried catching them when the daylight bulbs were on, but the pics didn't turn out. They're such camera whores; when they see me with the camera, they all come to the front of the tank, but they won't swim still, lol. I did manage to catch this shot when just the actinics were on.













Brilliant said:


> HeHe now that I know your Discus were 10 bucks I can bust on them.


LMAO! That's ok, Dorothy, Rose, Blanche, and Sophia are laughing that you paid too much for yours.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> So, can I bore you with a few more pics?
> 
> LMAO! That's ok, Dorothy, Rose, Blanche, and Sophia are laughing that you paid too much for yours.



Pics cool!

LOL! Im glad you didnt take that wrong. I love the solid blue coloring..hey my fish werent that cheap but they are "Super Red Turquoise".:flick:


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

LOL....it takes a lot to offend me, no worries. Besides, I know my discus come from the fishie equivalent of a puppy mill. They're probably all inner-bred too...I'm just happy they don't have a third eye or anything. I just need to give them some time to grow into oblong little footballs, then I can market them as "Les's Specialty Discus". I always end up with pets that should have been culled at birth, with my cat being the prime example!


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

I just have to say, I envy you discus owners. I LOVE these fish, but I just can't possibly do the water changes as frequently as required. I already work 16 hours a day, and have a full plate the rest of the time. Man I think they are gorgeous. Nice job!


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

They don't look like footballs to me. From what I've seen, the football shaped ones never get round in the first place.

The red turqs look interesting under the actinic. Hmmm......


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

TINNGG said:


> They don't look like footballs to me. From what I've seen, the football shaped ones never get round in the first place.
> 
> The red turqs look interesting under the actinic. Hmmm......


you should see my pics, when some are young they are slightly pointy. My female in my avatar is even a little football shaped, you should see her now!

I think Discus grow out quickly, you have to feed them well when young to grow them huge.


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

Gawain1974 said:


> LOL....it takes a lot to offend me, no worries. Besides, I know my discus come from the fishie equivalent of a puppy mill. They're probably all inner-bred too...I'm just happy they don't have a third eye or anything. I just need to give them some time to grow into oblong little footballs, then I can market them as "Les's Specialty Discus". I always end up with pets that should have been culled at birth, with my cat being the prime example!


You do need to feed them a lot to get them to grow properly and take the more traditional rounded shape. 4 feedings minimum at 3 inches or less...then you can taper off as they get bigger. Just remember, more feedings=more water changes (or larger quantity of water changed)


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

LOL....I know mine aren't shaped like footballs, and I know you need to feed well and keep up water quality to prevent bad shape formation. I was just joking with Brilliant about my "reject" fish. 

Yeah Lynn, I wanted this third tank to be easy and low-maintenance, and then I had to go with discus....with real plants. WTH was I thinking?


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## rlong (Jul 8, 2006)

Well.
Hi All,
I read throught this whole post, quite a job realy.
Your tank look great and you went through a lot to get it there.
I went through much the same thing. I have a 50 gallon Discus tank now with 5 discus. I have been and am now about to take the plunge into an upgrade for them. Right noe they are on the bottom shelf of a 2 tank stand and it is hard to apreciate them down there. The plan is to move the to a 72 gallon bowfront on the dresser in my bedroom.

I'll start a thread on the current setup and the moving process.

Good Luck and thanks for sharing! That goes for all of you responders too!

Randy


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks, Randy. Good luck with your upgrade! Just be certain that your dresser can support the weight of a 72 bowfront--that's almost 720 pounds. 

Well, I ordered one of those glass diffusers with the ceramic disk. I hope that'll do a better job than the plastic ladder thing.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Well, I ordered one of those glass diffusers with the ceramic disk. I hope that'll do a better job than the plastic ladder thing.


It will. I just made the switch 2 weeks ago, and now my measured CO2 concentration is in the 30 ppm range, whereas it was in the 10 - 15 ppm range with the ladder. The figures may not be accurate, but relatively speaking, I am still getting twice the concentration with no changes to anything else but switching from the ladder to a diffuser.

It just makes sense. The ladder lets out large bubbles, while the diffuser lets out tiny bubbles. The surface to volume ratio of the CO2 is multiples larger with the diffuser than the ladder.


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## rlong (Jul 8, 2006)

The dresser that I may be putting the 72 bowfront on, has had a 50 gallon tank on it in the past. I'll be thinking this over a bit yet.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Wow, some of these stem plants are growing like crazy. I had to trim my Sunset Hygro because it was starting to look like a jungle. I also moved my Ludwigia to the front and trimmed it shorter since the Hygro was overgrowing it. I planted the trimmings from the Hygro in the spot where I originally had the Ludwigia. I figure it'll be as tall as the mother plants in a couple of weeks.

A full tank shot:










The discus are such little camera whores. It's hard to get a short without them coming to the front of the glass to beg for food.



















I did another 50% water change tonight.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

I love my lotus bulbs.. With the right care:


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

Gawain,

WOW, your tank is really looking good!! Your fish coming to the front shows what great care you are doing for them too. I love your sunset hygro.

I just tore apart my tank and put in SoilMaster Select and got rid of my pots.
What a job!!! I will post when the water clears. Hope my babies and plants come out looking as nice as yours do!!!

You should be proud!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Wow, fshfanatic, I hope my lotus bulbs do as well as yours. How tall is yours, and how old is it?

Thanks, Marilyn. I just hope things continue to go as well in the long run. I can't wait to see pics of your tank. I don't envy your task of changing out the substrate, I know that is a ton of work.


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Wow, fshfanatic, I hope my lotus bulbs do as well as yours. How tall is yours, and how old is it?


That picture was taken just before posting. The Lotus is bout 1 month old. 

Here are a couple taken today.


















It stands about 10" tall and 8" wide. Since I introduced DIY C02 and GW ferts it has exploded. It grows about 1-3" a day. I cant wait to transfer it to my 120 and see what it can do!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

^^^
Very nice!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yes, I'm a dumbass. So, I was really happy with the new growth of my Java Moss. I was talking with my coworker the other day; he's a horticulture/biology major, and I showed him a pic of my "Java Moss." His response: "yes, of course it's growing fast--it's hair algae! Oops, my colorblind eyes totally couldn't tell the difference between the two. I'd even gone as far as trimming it and cleaning dead leaves out of it.

Here's a pic of Les's special "Java Moss":










LOL...so, do I get a special award for being PlantedTank's dumbass of the week or anything? 

I had my scientist friend over tonight and he ran some tests for me (just to verify that I wasn't too far off with the color charts--obviously, my eyes aren't to be trusted too much.

Results:

pH 7.0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 10 ppm
GH: 6
KH: 5 (I used some baking soda to raise it to this level)
CO2: 15 ppm

I hope when my glass diffuser gets here that my CO2 levels will be higher.


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## Marilyn1998 (Mar 8, 2006)

Ah Les. Dont be so hard on yourself. At least it was green and fluffy!! Hope you get it cleared with no troubles!!! Looks good tho!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

LOL, thanks Marilyn. I removed it last night, scrubbed the driftwood with a toothbrush, and added another batch of Java Moss I had growing on the gravel bed. So, hopefully this batch will fare better.

Well, I noticed something that I haven't seen before. Some of my plants are pearling! There is a steady stream of misty O2 bubbles coming from the rhizone of my annubias (the one attached to the driftwood), and there are bubbles on the leaves of the anacharis. I take it this is a good sign?

Also, my ambulia has nearly doubled in size since I trimmed it on Saturday. It's almost reached the top of the tank. The hygro cuttings that I planted have grown a lot in the past few days as well. Damn, It seems I'm going to have to trim these plants weekly. So much for a low-maintenance tank, lol.


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## apro (Jan 25, 2006)

Georgiadawgger said:


> What is your temperature? I've been playing with mine between the 86-90 range. After the last month at 90, I've decided to back it down to about 86. I just introduced some mosses (Weeping and Chrismas) and they're showing signs of stress.


At what temp you keep your tank for the mosses?


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

apro said:


> At what temp you keep your tank for the mosses?



Funny you ask...after introducing the mosses, about 90% of them melted away...unless its from transit stress, the heat may have gotten to them. Right now I have a few fronds hanging on and are actually stuck to the wood so only time will tell if they actually grow--at least the small little bits pearl  

I'm still trying to find a compromise between temp-fish-plants. I spent too much on the fish as well as all the plant equipment to have only one or the other. I may shoot for a target temp of about 84 once the fish get bigger. Right now two are about 5+ inches, the other 2 are around 4+ inches.


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## apro (Jan 25, 2006)

The Lily is Nymphea Stellata


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

*What Have I Done?*

Dear lord, what did I get myself into? These plants have grown like crazy in the six days since I last trimmed them. What did I get myself into? 

Here's are some pics of my jungle:

A pic from six days ago followed by one from tonight:


















The stems are growing like mad, and this is only with CO2 levels of 15 ppm! I might have to step it up to bi-weekly trimming if this doesn't stop. What's the best way to trim a stem plant? So far, I've just been cutting the tops off and planting them, but I'm reaching the point where I don't have any more room (I don't want to crowd the discus). If I cut the tops off and trade-them in at work for credit, will the bottoms continue to grow normally? Or, should I get rid of the bottoms and replace them with the tops?

My stem plants have always had good growth, but the smaller foreground plants, mostly sword varieties and lilies have been slow, but they're starting to kick in now. I originally thought I was going to lose the crypto and the lilies, they weren't looking too hot, but they seem to have adjusted to my tank temps and parameters now:










I'm starting to get a lot of pearling as well. The anubias, anacharis, lilies and the java moss (the real stuff, not the hair algae I was manicuring) are pearling like crazy, and the ambulia is as well (to a lesser extent). None of the sword varieties are pearling--is that normal, or will they in time? Not that I really care, I'm just curious. I thought bubbles were being blown in through the filter or something because the anacharis was filled with bubbles tonight.

I haven't even hooked up my new glass CO2 diffuser yet. I'm sorta scared now! I really don't want to speed up growth, lol. I suppose I can always crank back the CO2 once I get the glass diffuser installed. Here's a pic of it:










This isn't the glass diffuser I had ordered...the one I ordered was bigger with six spirals, and this one only has three. It'll still work, won't it? Or, is it only for a smaller tank than 46 gallons?


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

i've noticed with my myrio filigree that when i cut the tops off, it often branches off about 2 inches under where i've made the cut. i don't know if that's normal for stem plants. i don't think i mind it. gives it a little more haphazard look, but others might not be into that.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I don't think I can delay it anymore, it's time for a serious trimming.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

haha, i'll say!


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## RachPreach (Jan 16, 2006)

Hey how did you get your lotus to grow so bushy??



fshfanatic said:


> That picture was taken just before posting. The Lotus is bout 1 month old.
> 
> Here are a couple taken today.
> 
> ...


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

RachPreach, It started out as 3 bulbs planted 3" apart and now it is 8 plants. I am going to thin it out by romoving some of the individual plants and move them to my 125.

It is still very bushy even for that. I am running 1.25 wpg, dosing with 5ml Flourish every other day, and CSM+B on the other days, 5ml. as well as DIY C02 through a glass diffusor.

The tank is about 44gals and is being very over filtered (Eheim ProII 2026 & Fluval 304)


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I finally trimmed the jungle in my tank. The hygrophilia and the ambulia stems were over two feet long! The anacharis wasn't much shorter, lol. I finally installed the glass diffuser as well. The bubbles are so much smaller--just a very fine mist.

Sorry about the quality, the water is a little cloudy still since I did the trimmings. I removed the plants, cut the tops off, and replanted them. I also moved around a few plants as well. I got rid of the Java Moss--it's just a magnet for hair algae.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

quality is great what a beautiful tank! Nice job!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

looks good!! you've come a looong way!

- fish newb


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## RobChuck (Mar 9, 2006)

Les,
The tank looks great!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks everyone. Your compliments mean a lot to me considering how beautiful your own tanks are. I definitely couldn't have done it without the help of everyone who took the time to give me advice and feedback.

We got a lot of new plants in at work, and now I'm wishing I had a bit more room, LOL. We finally got some wisteria in, and I'm actually considering swapping out the anacharis with that. I don't know. And NO, a second tank isn't an option.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> We got a lot of new plants in at work, and now I'm wishing I had a bit more room, LOL. We finally got some wisteria in, and I'm actually considering swapping out the anacharis with that. I don't know. And NO, a second tank isn't an option.


Wisteria is a pretty fast grower too, but it'll be a lot slower than anacharis, which grows like a weed. I pulled out my anacharis after 1 month because it was growing an inch a day.:eek5:


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yeah, I know the feeling....my anacharis, hygrophilia, and ambulia are all growing at least one inch per day. 

I have one larger grouping of ambulia and a much smaller one. I'm thinking about replacing the smaller grouping with a bunch of four-leaf clover.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Yeah, I know the feeling....my anacharis, hygrophilia, and ambulia are all growing at least one inch per day.
> 
> I have one larger grouping of ambulia and a much smaller one. I'm thinking about replacing the smaller grouping with a bunch of four-leaf clover.


Finally replacing that plant eh...I knew this day would come!

My hygrophilla is growing like crazy too.

That one Discus looks like it has grown! Either that or the other ones got smaller!


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## rlong (Jul 8, 2006)

Hi,
Gawain: Very nice!!!
My 72 Gallon Bowfron is on order, the "All Glass" factory is about 10 miles fron my house. I'm having 2 holes drilled in the bottom for overflows ( more on that in another thread ).

The dresser idea has long ago been replaced by a stand I built. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/33098-building-tank-stand-72gal-bowfront.html

The stand is now stained and finished ( I'll post pictures in the above thread ). I still have a few things to do to the stand yet.


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## rodneyfisher (Nov 6, 2005)

Hey how often do you change your water and how much, do you ever vacum you gravel, what kind of light are you using?
HEy what kind of substrate are you using as well


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

That's great, rlong! I can't wait to see your tank come together. 

Rodney, I change 50% of my water with ro/di water once a week (sometimes 10 days). I never vacuum my gravel, I just suck any debris/mulm from the surface of the gravel bed. I'm using just plain ol' gravel for my substrate with a bunch of Flourish tabs as a supplement. I use Greg Watson dry ferts for EI dosing. My lights are 2x96 watt PCs (one bulb is 10K and the other is actinic), and a second fixture is 2x18 watts of T5 bulbs (10K and actinic). I use actinics because I like the way they bring the colors out on my discus. Not counting the actinic, I still have 2.5 watts per gallon.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> Nice tank. IMO, treating RO water does more harm than good. I use RO water straight from the barrel, then dose Seachem Excel, Tropica MasterGrow, and PMDD from Greg Watson. All my tanks do fine with this routine.....DC


How do you keep GH up with that routine?


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

DiabloCanine said:


> At higher temps plants are like fish, they want to grow faster = plants need more light/ferts/CO2. Check your setup and make sure it is adequate.


Hmm. Tom Barr has recommended as ideal a temperature of around 74 F for plants.

I certainly found my plants growing faster when I brought my tank temp down from 80 to 74, and everything I have read suggests that many plants don't grow as quickly in higher temperatures.

Just my 2 cents.


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## rlong (Jul 8, 2006)

Hi Banderbe, Yes the plants would grow and prosper better at 74^ but that would kill his fish.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

rlong said:


> Hi Banderbe, Yes the plants would grow and prosper better at 74^ but that would kill his fish.


Yeah I know that  Just contesting his assertions about plants growing faster at higher temps..

But anyway I see later that Robert H. made a similar comment to the one I did.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Silly non Discus people......


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## LS6 Tommy (May 13, 2006)

Y0uH0 said:


> Just a question,in the last picture,how did you make the colour of your red turquoise stand out so well? Does it have anything to do with the lighting?



All of my red turquoise look just like that, maybe even a little more "blue". I have a dual 96w CF setup from AH Supply. I use a 6700k in the front spot of the fixture and a 5000k in the back. The higher color temperature ranges bring out the blues and the lower ones bring out the reds, so it gives a pretty good balalnce.

Tommy


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## Y0uH0 (Dec 19, 2005)

I see,thanks alot,perhaps it is time that i get such light fixtures for my tank as well.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I do like the actinic bulbs over my tank because they actually make the discus flouresce when just the actinics are on. When I have the 10Ks on with the actinics, I think it brings out the color nicely. My plants are almost growing too fast, so I have no plans on switching out the actinic bulbs with 5500 or 10K bulbs. 

So, will this growth ever slow down? It's almost maddening. I have to trim the plants at least once a week to keep a jungle from overgrowing the tank. My amazon sword is getting pretty huge....I went back and compared pics to when I added the sword to my twenty to what it is now--damn, doesn't even look like the same plant!

I tested my water parameters and came up with the following results:

Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 25 ppm!
GH: 9
KH: 6
pH: 6.8
CO2: 29 ppm

I'm going to stop dosing nitrate ferts....with levels at 25 ppm, I'm worried about fueling unwanted algae growth with elevated nitrate levels. I'm assuming my bioload is providing enough nitrate for the plants, and dry-dosing isn't necessary. From my understanding, 10 ppm is ideal for nitrate. Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, here are some pics that I shot tonight to give y'all an idea as to where things are at with my tank. 

A full tank shot:












A shot of the amazon sword when it was still in my 20 gallon. Notice how the leaves have changed shape, followed by a shot from when I first sat up the 46 bowfront, and finally, a shot of the same plant from tonight:




























My crypto wendtii--this thing has really taken off as well. For the longest time, this plant was just a few rough-looking leaves that never seemed to grow. I really like the color, it's a nice contrast:
:











I think the nasty hair algae is making a reappearance, but this time is seems to be mostly on the large driftwood piece. It's actually pearling. Do I need to be worried about this and remove it, or can I just leave it be? I've been pulling it off, but all my friends who come over comment about how much they like it and how it makes the wood look more natural. What do y'all think?












And finally, a shot of my little camera whores--they can't resist not being the center of attention:










Thanks again for your feedback and time.


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## Anti-Pjerrot (Jan 20, 2006)

> I think the nasty hair algae is making a reappearance, but this time is seems to be mostly on the large driftwood piece. It's actually pearling. Do I need to be worried about this and remove it, or can I just leave it be? I've been pulling it off, but all my friends who come over comment about how much they like it and how it makes the wood look more natural. What do y'all think?


I say, replace it with moss.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

This is looking really good!
I really like that Discus under Blanch (I think in that last pic) Thats my favorite!

I have some hair beginning to grow on my driftwood and I think its going to look like that stuff on your wood soon. I am going to take the wood out and scrub it off and hope that works. I thought it was roots to my HC but it ended up growing out of the HC and making it look bad. I removed the HC and I will try again after I scrub the wood.

I would offer to send you some moss I got recently but I am afraid it will die in this heat.

I think you can remove the algae grower thing from your sig!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

I tried java moss, but I didn't have any luck. It quickly became overgrown in hair algae, which I lovingly cultivated because my colorblind eyes couldn't tell the difference, lol. I've tried three bunches on that driftwood, and the moss never made it.

Thanks for the offer, Brillaint, I appreciate it. But like you mentioned, I wouldn't try shipping plants out in this heat. A couple of weeks ago, we got in a huge plant shipment at the LFS, and it got delayed for a day. When I unpacked them, all the North American plants were toast...and the entire box smelled like steamed broccoli. LOL.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, what started out as a simple water changed has turned into a late night/early morning deforestation. I removed the hair algae magnet, I mean anacharis, lol. I've learned to hate that crap. I also removed what was left of the diandra--it just wasn't doing too well and was rotting at the base. As soon as the stems start to grow taller, it gets shaded and doesn't do too well at the base. I moved my sword plant back and to make it more of a focal point since it was just growing too large in the spot it was in and the leaves were growing up against the front glass. 

I also cleared up some space. While I was happy with the way the overall landscape looked, I felt that there really wasn't enough swimming room for the discus, so I wanted to give them a bit more room. If it were only the tetras in the tank, then I would have left things alone. I also moved around some other foreground plants to even things out as they are growing in. Nothing too radical, but I think I've opened up some more space for the fish.

Pics will follow.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

pics please...


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Sorry, Lynn, I'll have to take pics tonight and post them. Water is still a bit murky from the uprooting and water change. I want it to settle a bit before I go snapping away. I need to get my happy rear-end to bed, lol.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Just a tip on the wood and algae. I have the same problem with growing moss....I end up with algae on it. The best solution I found was to tie up java fern to the wood. Ever since I covered the top parts of my driftwood in java fern, I've not had algae problems on the log. The rest of the tank is another matter. :hihi:


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Yes; pics please. I acquired a couple of juvie discus last week at a local pet store (got lucky - they'd just gotten them in and hadn't had time to screw them up). I plopped them in a planted 10 for q/t but am considering moving them to a newly purchased 15 high as soon as I'm sure they're ok. They seem to be doing well. The plan is to eventually move them to my 75.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

PICTURES...PICTURES...PICTURES...:icon_evil


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Ok, as promised, here are some pics. Looking at them now, there doesn't seem to be that much of a difference, but I'd neglected my trimming for two weeks, so I had an unwielding jungle on my hands. 

Here's a close up of my two lotuses. I trim the roots periodically to keep them from growing too fast. I guess I'm going for a bonsai lotus look, lol.











Here's my crypt wendtii. This is becoming my favorite plant in the tank as I really love the color.











And finally, a couple of full-tank shots:










Discus front and center (acting all starved for attention, as always):











As you can see, the hair algae is still present on the driftwood. I scrub it off, but it just returns. I guess I can try removing the wood and bleaching it, soaking it, etc., but I guess I'm lazy. I kinda like the look when it stays at this level, lol. I did try to open the tank up a bit more and give the discus more space. The hygro will grow in fast, I'm sure. Moving the amazon sword really helped, I think.

Let me know what you think.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Ah, between three tanks and a betta, my discus have been getting jealous of the time I've spent on my other tanks. I hope it's ok, I'll post a few pics of my other tanks.

Mr. Betta (yes, I know, a plastic plant--ack!). I thought about doing something with him, but this madness has gotta stop somewhere, lol. I know, it's a betta in a bowl--the horror! At least it's not a discus in a bowl, eh?











My 5.5 gallon nano reef:










Close up of my sebae anemone (he was bleached when I got him, but he's starting to color back up). You can see one of the two symbiotic anemone crabs that live in the anemone. 











My 55 gallon SPS reeftank (recently converted from a predominately soft coral tank, so that's why the corals are so small, lol). This tank is also affectionately known as my money pit.










My newest "baby" to the tank, though it doesn't interact much (unless you count getting your hand too close to it and getting your fingers pinched when it snaps shut).










SPS corals grow so damn slow, it's like watching the corn grow back home, lol. One thing I love about a planted tank is that results are so much quicker. Though with all the weekly trimmings, dosing ferts, testing, a planted tank is only nominally less work. And my goal for putting a discus tank in my bedroom was that I wanted something low-maintenance, and then I had to go and do live plants as well. Silly me. 

It's been a struggle, but I finally got all three tanks and Mr. Betta looking good at the same time. Of course, I haven't slept much this week.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

The fact that you put discus in your "low maintenance" tank made it a bit higher maintenance. Plants just enhanced that effect. LOL!

So... when you say trim roots, do you just go in the tank and use something to slice through the roots in place or are you uprooting it every time?

What do your discus think of the "hand of doom" invading all the time? My wild angels are like "ah gad! It's back! Take cover!" And then they stay hidden for the next several hours. My domestic angels run and hide but then 15 minutes they're like "feedmefeedmefeedme FEEEEEEd me!"


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

It's funny that you mention the hand of doom. My discus are all "mutt discus" that came from a LFS (hence wholesale breeder), so they're pretty "domesticated" as far as fish go. When I stick my hand in the tank, they all run for cover, but as soon as I remove it, they come back out, generally within a few minutes. My SW fish all recognize me and will come up to beg for food (though I prefer to believe that they just love me and want some quality time together). Both the discus and the SW fish aren't scared of me when I approach the tank, but the discus are much more personable with strangers. When a guest goes up to the reef tank, the fish will usually hide, but not the discus, they come right up to the front of the tank. They'll even follow your hands around on the outside of the glass. I sometimes have to "shoo" them away when I try to take pics.

When I trim the roots on the lotuses (or is it loti?), I uproot the plants and trim the roots. When I moved the Amazon sword, I trimmed the roots on it as well in a vain effort to slow down the growth. Now that thing had some serious roots growing on it.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The mushroonms can easily take over a tank and make it look very nice. 
SPS corals, well yea, without max light/lots of Ca/alk, nope.
There are many softer easy to grow corals that look supper and have great colors.

I think many think they need to have the hardest stuff and super high light to have a neat tank, not true.

Same with planted tanks. 
Some shrimp(bit they'
d be eaten by the Discus) would take care of the algae on the wood and some smaller plecos would also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Well it doesnt look much different...I guess I was expecting a major change.

It still looks great and even better then before. If you can call it organizing..thats what it seems like you did.

I can only see the 2 dimensional view. Its kinda hard to see more room or less room. All pics look stuffed with plants. 

Your plants are really healthy and you keep them well. Ill be looking to see what you do to cure the log thing because I have the same algae on my log....


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks, guys. I didn't mean to give the impression that I made some major changes. I should have posted a before pic--the hygro was 3' long again. You can't really tell in the pics, but I did open up the substrate considerably to give the discus more grazing room. So, after cutting back all the plants, it looks really different to me, lol.

Tom, my reef tank was a softie/lps for 4.5 years with lots of mushrooms, lol. I enjoyed it and my softies grew like crazy, but I wanted a change and bumped it up to the next level. Softies grow extremely fast in comparison to the fast-growing SPS (under ideal conditions, you can expect no more than 3 cm a month). But, not all SPS are fast growers. I guess I was just ready for a new challenge.

Here's a pic of what my tank looked like before I upgraded everything:











But I digress...we were talking about plants.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Thank God I am going scuba diving at the end of the month. Your reef tanks are making me Jones for it bigtime! Nice job.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

fresh_newby said:


> Thank God I am going scuba diving at the end of the month. Your reef tanks are making me Jones for it bigtime! Nice job.


Thanks, Lynn. I wish I knew how to swim, I'd love to go diving/snorkeling (yeah, I know, I never learned, lol). Be sure to take lots of pics for us.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Thanks, Lynn. I wish I knew how to swim, I'd love to go diving/snorkeling (yeah, I know, I never learned, lol). Be sure to take lots of pics for us.


That's the beauty of diving. You don't need to know how to swim.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's the beauty of diving. You don't need to know how to swim.


WAHWAHWHAT!??!

All this talk makes me want to go on vacation.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

I agree - whaaaaa?!?! You don't need to know how to swim to dive?? D'ooookay. Hmmmmm.

My two discus are mutts too. I did a w/c night before last and was amused at one trying to attack stuff going up the gravel tube. My wild angels wouldn't dream of going near something like that. They're going to be so ticked off at me next week. Their tank is going to get an overhaul. There's a big stack of slate in one corner and I'm taking all but 1 piece out (and that piece is going to be propped in a corner in case the apparent pair get ideas), and I've got a sword that I planted in the front that needs moved to the back. Not to mention some plumbing changes (the would be canopy got rendered superflous by some power bargain shopping at petsmart yesterday) I may not see them for a month. LOL!

You could stick a small anubia in the betta bowl. I've done that to just about all of mine (except for the two that I couldn't find any so got crypts)


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

What do you guys mean muts?
Les' Discus look like Pigeon Blood, Red Turquoise & Blue Diamond or Cobalt.
Do you mean not wild?

Most of my Discus do not like me entering their area, when they are hungry they are the same old beggars no matter what but...wild or not they both seem bothered until a strong bond is created.


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Mutt= comes without a 5 generation pedigree certified and signed by (insert famous discus breeder here) LOL! One of mine I thought was a red turqouise but I'm not so sure now. The markings look too busy for a red turq. The other... they didn't have a clue which one it was. They'd gotten in blue and green. It's a solid, I do know that.


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

2wheelsx2 said:


> That's the beauty of diving. You don't need to know how to swim.


well way back when, when I got certified, we had to swim a mile first and tread water for 15 mins after that. Maybe things have changed.


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## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

fresh_newby said:


> well way back when, when I got certified, we had to swim a mile first and tread water for 15 mins after that. Maybe things have changed.


I got certified way back when also. 1993. PADI. Those were the exact words my instructor used. With air tanks and a BCD, why do you need to know how to swim?


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

TINNGG said:


> Mutt= comes without a 5 generation pedigree certified and signed by (insert famous discus breeder here) LOL!


Haha....yeah, that's what I meant by "mutt" as well. My discus came from the LFS where I work, so I'm sure they were bred on some large-scale discus breeding farm designed for mass distribution. I also mean that they're not wild-caught.

Well, my damn computer crashed, so I'm working on my spare laptop for the moment. I won't be able to post pics or anything until I get it fixed. I pray I get it fixed--all graduate work and thesis research is on that computer, and my backups are corrupt!!! But, I'm told it should be easy enough to fix once I get the XP disk. If not, don't be surprised if you read the headline: "Man drowns himself in fish tank and is consumed by hungry discus." LOL!


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## TINNGG (Mar 9, 2005)

Oh no. Your backups are corrupt? Did you get a bug? Or did your burner go on the fritz?

I'm going to have to replace the dvd burner in my mac mini. I suspect a certain Mr Destructo (7 year old) put something in it and messed it up - won't even read a cd now. Sigh... that kid... he's destroyed 2 zip drives, a floppy drive well, you get the picture.

I need to get pics of my discus. I"m going to move them from the planted q/t to a bare 15 for a while. I may get/construct a divider as well as Red Turkey keeps cornering the blue/green/whatever the heck it is. I should have gotten 3 of them but the third one they had was trying to hide a little too well for my comfort.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I got tired of the algae on the driftwood, so I decided to chance a pleco in the tank with the discus. I didn't want a huge monster pleco, so I went with a gold-nugget pleco. Very pretty (for a damn ugly pleco), but I can't notice much of a change in the algae on the driftwood since I put him in the tank a week ago. There are three types of gold-nugget plecos, each depending on their spot size (actually two designations are actually the juvenile and the adults). From what I've read, mine is the L018 pleco. In any case, they get 8" maximum, but most stay small and don't get beyond 5". They like acidic water, so a discus tank is ideal. I've read mixed reports as to their algae-eating abilities, but I decided, what the hell, I'd give one a shot. So far, he hasn't munched on any plants.

Well, the XP disks didn't work. I have to send my computer away for data recovery service. Fortunately, my brother does that sorta thing, so it won't cost much. Classes have started and I'd really like the bibliographies for my PhD thesis so I can get my butt to work! LOL


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## adamjh (Sep 2, 2005)

Gawain1974 said:


> Classes have started and I'd really like the bibliographies for my PhD thesis so I can get my butt to work! LOL


What field of study?


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

Gawain1974,

What type of hood/canopy do you have on your tank? How tall is it? How do you have your lights mounted to it? I am also looking at setting up a 46 BF. 

Thanks


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Adam, I'm doing my phd in French literature--my specialization is medieval literature, particularly Arthurian romance (the subject of my thesis).

brasstetra, I don't have any type of wooden canopy or hood on my tank. Unfortunately, AGA doesn't make a wooden canopy for their 46 bowfronts, at least that I could find. I have the Geneva stand, and I really do wish I could get a matching canopy. My lights are a Coralife PC fixture, and I have them mounted with mounting legs. I also use a glass canopy on the top of the tank.


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## kingborris (Feb 25, 2004)

Thought I might mention that gold nuggets arent known for their algae eating prowess. They tend to munch on the microfauna / flora layer covering objects, rather than specifically algae. they may lift a bit of algae off in the process though. very nice fish either way


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Has your hard drive failed? Sounds like your in good hands though...

My algae on the drift wood is almost gone. I lowered my photo period and upped ferts & co2.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks for the info, KB. I hardly ever see the gold nugget--I'm glad I got him with my discount and didn't pay full retail, or I'd be really upset, lol

Brilliant, my system registry files for Windows became corrupt (not sure why). The hard drive isn't physically defective, it just needs to have Windows re-installed, but I need to pull the files off of it first.

I'm glad your algae is going away....mine comes and goes. I've been kind of a lazy slag with dosing ferts--the plants grow so damn fast that I'm trying to slow them down just a tad. LOL


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

So much for last known good...Ive never seen that work.

I hope my algae doesnt some back! Maybe you can use less light and same ferts. May be a habit from reefkeeping, how long do you leave the light on?

Maybe another pic of the tank if its in order.


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> Adam, I'm doing my phd in French literature--my specialization is medieval literature, particularly Arthurian romance (the subject of my thesis).
> 
> brasstetra, I don't have any type of wooden canopy or hood on my tank. Unfortunately, AGA doesn't make a wooden canopy for their 46 bowfronts, at least that I could find. I have the Geneva stand, and I really do wish I could get a matching canopy. My lights are a Coralife PC fixture, and I have them mounted with mounting legs. I also use a glass canopy on the top of the tank.


Oceanic makes one for it in black, silver, cherry stain, and light oak. Its about 8" tall... They run around 100.00-150.00 each.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Yeah, I've seen the Oceanic canopies, but unfortunately, my stand and tank are maple. Now, if only they'd make a maple canopy, I'd be happy. But I can live with things the way they are....for the time being, lol.

Brilliant, you don't want to know how long I leave my lights on, you'd be horrified. Ok, I'll tell you anyways--12 hours. It wasn't my original plan to cut down on my fert dosing...I've just been really lazy on water changes and dosing this last month with the new semester starting. I've been working more on my reef tank lately as well (new MH bulbs--what a crisis, ugh). So, I decided to justify my laziness and say I was trying to slow down my plant growth.  (Un)fortunately, my cable and internet went out tonight, so I'm in the middle of a water change and big plant trim. The discus should be happy--they'll actually have room to swim now. 

I'll try to take some pics, but the software is on my broken down laptop, and the laptop I'm on now is a dinosaur.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Bah dont worry about pics...12 hours! yikes! I run mine for 6-8 now.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Aren't you running MH lights now, Brillaint? From my understanding, you don't need to run MH lights nearly as long as flourescents. Of course, 12 hours is still a bit much....looking at my electric bill, I'm glad I'm single so I don't have anyone to nag me.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Thats for all of em. I run the MH 6 and others 8.


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## danDman (Nov 2, 2003)

Been breeding and importing discus for 13 years. The only thing to keep discus happy is constant water parameters. No need to lower Ph or tds.
All my discus are kept in ph 8.0 and 300 tds. In the end of a year they are over 7.5".
I have over 3000 gallons of discus. Be careful of one tank experts.

JMHO,
dan
Here's the end result.


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## the_noobinator (Jun 10, 2006)

geez, dan, those are some monsters.


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## PinkRasbora (Jan 22, 2005)

Those discus are stunning! When did you start breeding them if I may ask?


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Hmmm....all this talk of TDS has made me curious, so I just went and tested my tank water. The TDS of my tank is 101. That's a lot better than my tap (465).


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

wow what gorgeous Discus. You aren't making my wait into Discus keeping easy!
They are stunning. 
As for metals, I run mine 9 hours and run 2 50/50 55 watts an hour before and an hour afterwards <trying to mimic sunup and sundown>


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, I figured it was time to update this thread.

I finally got tired of trimming the cabomba so often,so I pulled it out and replaced it with some pink temple and some other bacopa variety. I also seem to have finally won the battle against hair algae growing on my large piece of driftwood. I broke down and added a UV sterilizer, and I'm happy with the results. The water is much clearer. It was clear before, but it's crystal clear now. Also, algae on the glass is much slower to appear.

Here are some pics:

Full tank shot:










New bacopa variety:










My new discus (I traded in one of my red turquoise):










Three discus hanging out together:










Finally, one of my three German Blue Rams:











Things seem pretty stable at this point. Hell, my betta now lives in this tank as well. I upgraded my nano reef from a 5.5 gallon to a 14 gallon Oceanic Bio-Cube, so I decided I needed to simplify my life a bit. So, I was walking past the betta bowl, reached down and scooped up the betta, and I tossed him into the discus tank. He's doing great in there. He's grown a lot in a few weeks and is very fat and happy. The other fish ignore him, and he ignores them. He seems to be doing much better in a planted tank environment in warmer waters (bettas do prefer warm water).


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## fresh_lynny (Mar 9, 2006)

Looks great! Thanks for the update.
I agree with the Betta decision. Mine lives inmy 90 gal community. He is happy as a pig in sht.


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## deluxebusboy (Nov 8, 2006)

danDman said:


> Been breeding and importing discus for 13 years. The only thing to keep discus happy is constant water parameters. No need to lower Ph or tds.
> All my discus are kept in ph 8.0 and 300 tds. In the end of a year they are over 7.5".
> I have over 3000 gallons of discus. Be careful of one tank experts.
> 
> ...



do u mind me asking what do you feed your discus? they are awesome looking. thanks


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Thanks, Lynn. 

I hesitated putting my betta in with my discus because I've read that the betta may harrass the discus and vice-versa. However, after seeing him thrive in his new environment, I know I made the right decision. He looks so much happer in a large tank as opposed to a 3 gallon fish bowl.

Do any of you run an UV sterilizer on your planted tanks? I wasn't trying to eradicate green water or anything. I am running it to primarily eradicate any potential parasites to keep my discus healthy. I've also noticed that my water is crystal clear.

I'm also curious about ozone. Ozone definitely has its benefits for particular reef setups, and I'm curious as to whether or not it'd be useful in a freshwater tank?


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## TheOtherGeoff (Feb 11, 2003)

has sure grown in nicely. i love the giant crypt by the wood there.


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## Brilliant (Apr 11, 2006)

Gawain1974 said:


> I'm also curious about ozone. Ozone definitely has its benefits for particular reef setups, and I'm curious as to whether or not it'd be useful in a freshwater tank?


Hello, nice to see you and the fish! The tank is looking healthy and the wood is great! algae free. What did you do? :hihi: 

Ive never heard of anyone using an ORP controller here I presume that would be the only reason for ozone. I dont think that ORP and co2 are friends.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

The Amazon Sword will get too big for the tank, but you can continuously trim the roots and then tops and Bonzai/slow it down. Nice tank!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Brilliant said:


> Hello, nice to see you and the fish! The tank is looking healthy and the wood is great! algae free. What did you do? :hihi:


Thanks, it's good to see you again. How' your tank doing? You know, I'm not sure what I did that got rid of the algae. It may have just cycled out on its own. I'd just pull the algae off periodically. But the last time I pulled the algae off, I also installed a UV sterilizer at the same time, and then what little traces of algae that were left on the wood just disappeared. I know UV sterilizers aren't supposed to do anything about existing algae on plants and decor, so who knows.

Thanks Betowess. I do trim the roots on my sword and lotus plants from time to time to slow their growth down. I also periodically remove leaves from the sword when they start to look bad.

I'm not too sure about ozone and CO2 not being compatible. Ozone (the 03) molecule is very unstable and breaks down in matter of a few seconds and is usually dosed outside of the tank (it'd be in a reactor much like a CO2 reactor for a planted tank). But during those few seconds, it oxidizes and cleans and kills nasties. Old-school ozone generators actually used a UV lamp to generate ozone, but the new ones don't. 

I'm just curious as to whether or not folks use ozone on their planted tanks or not. I just installed an ozone system on my reef tank and dose it into my protein skimmer.


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

Well, time certainly has flown by, and I guess it's time to update this thread. I hope everyone had a nice Holiday season and all that jazz. 

I set an all new record for tank neglect--I hadn't trimmed the plants in my tank since my last post in this thread back in November. The jungle was so thick, that there was hardly any room for the poor discus to swim around. When I trimmed the plants, i pulled out ludwigia, sunset hygro, and some red temple that was over 6' long! It was all one giant ball of plants. I got rid of all the Ludwigia--that stuff grows way too fast for my taste. I also replaced my regular valisneria with some corkscrew val, and I added some glosso.

Of course, during this period of laziness, the some of the foreground plants didn't get enough light and receded a bit. My pretty crypto wendtii has looked better, I hope it grows back thicker now.

Here are some pics:

A full tank shot:











My new baby tears foreground plantings:











And Mr. Betta:










I can't get over how fat and happy this betta is. Throwing him in this tank was the best decision ever. He's incredibly healthy, fat, and active. The other fish never bother him either, and he leaves them alone.

I'm also very happy with the decision to add the UV sterilizer. My nuisance hair algae problem disappeared immediately after adding the sterilizer. Also, I'd have to clean the tank glass once a week. I cleaned the glass for the first time since November, and it wasn't that dirty at all.


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## caymandiver75 (Sep 5, 2006)

Looks beautiful! What UV sterilizer did you get?


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## Georgiadawgger (Apr 23, 2004)

That sword is an absolute monster!! Healthy lookin' monster though  The glosso growing straight up?  Its interesting how things turn out after a period of neglect. I started a new job back in October and my tank actually went south due to the inability to stay on top of things.  The good thing it was recoverable and things are progressing nicely after some adjustments and making time to tend to it. Nice work with the tank!


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## Gawain1974 (Jun 30, 2006)

caymandiver75, I bought a 9 watt Coralife TurboTwist UV Sterilizer from Drs. Foster and Smith. I just installed it inline on the outlet of my canister filter.

Georgiadawgger--yeah, I bought some glosso in a week before I trimmed the plants, and as you can see, it reached for the light. Thanks for the kind words.


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## bastalker (Dec 8, 2004)

Very nice lookin tank!

Unfortunately your discus are stunted, an will maintain the football shape you see now. Hey if you like them, an they are healthy, thats all that matters!


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