# Disposable fluval CO2.. nervous.. what else do I need?



## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

CO2 help!
So with my 'Fall Bluffs Naturescape' I ended up adding the disposable fluval mini Pressurized 20g-CO2 Kit- 0.7 ounces. I opened it up just EVER so slightly (lowest it will go) and keep it on 24/7 as it doesnt have a timer, etc.



What is my next step?
Im reading till my eyes are bleeding!!!


What im looking for is: Medium light setting, CO2 at minimum. I just dont want to learn the hard way... again (low tech i have down to a science- now im adding in more variables to this specific tank). So I assume I need to figure out PAR with my LED's- but I dont even have a lighting schedule set as my lamp has so many settings and just got done cycling.. 



Please help- I will be forever grateful.


Tank journal:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/...ta-waterfall-decorah-shale-photo-heavy-2.html


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

livebearerlove said:


> What is my next step?
> Im reading till my eyes are bleeding!!!


 This is always a good first step (though maybe without the eyes bleeding )


In terms of lighting, you may be able to find someone that already has taken PAR measurements for the Chihiro light.


For CO2, what you are doing is fine for now. If you want to (roughly) estimate your CO2 levels, you can always invest or DIY a drop checker and fill it with 4 dkH reference solution. The indicator (bromothymol blue) will turn an emerald green when you are in the ballpark of 30 ppm of CO2.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Darkblade48 said:


> livebearerlove said:
> 
> 
> > What is my next step?
> ...


 Ok, so I read oodles of material. Head is spinning a bit....
I purchased a drop checker, ill install today.
So is it always 30ppm roughly?
I dont have a drop checker, just the diffuser (it says it counts bubbles, but it doesnt unless im doing it wrong... thanks Amazon, pff.)


Many things I read told me to purchase a PAR sensor, and that would determine my 'drops' and my ppm requirements. They are expensive... and I dont know if I would be able to decipher all the information without getting another university degree. HA



The calculator I found said: .2ppm dissolved, 35ppm recommended, .4-.7 bps (I also found other calculators that said similar https://aquariuminfo.org/co2calculator.html). 



I guess if I get it to 30ppm- then do I really need to measure PAR?
Its manual... so I leave it on day and night as unscrewing the top part is a chore... I read somewhere that I should turn CO2 on 1 hour before my lights come on, and if I leave it on 24/7 then it could kill my fish? (I may be a aquascaper- but my fish are very rare and mean a lot to me... I breed hybrid endlers- im trying to perfect my 'Blue Dragon' endlers- so all my fry are like my children at this point).
Is it better to upgrade my system so I dont kill my fish by having in on at night?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

To be safe I would take the diffuser out of the tank at night, at least for a while until you get a handle on things. As mentioned by @Darkblade48 the drop checker will give you a good visual reference that the co2 isn't at crazy levels by noting the color which should be green, not yellow. Many diffusers double as bubble counters. You can also just see how many bubbles are coming out by removing the diffuser from the tubing.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> To be safe I would take the diffuser out of the tank at night, at least for a while until you get a handle on things. As mentioned by @*Darkblade48* the drop checker will give you a good visual reference that the co2 isn't at crazy levels by noting the color which should be green, not yellow. Many diffusers double as bubble counters. You can also just see how many bubbles are coming out by removing the diffuser from the tubing.


 Thanks! I went back and read more info.... my Diffuser counts bubbles it says on Amazon 'JARDLI POLLEN GLASS DIFFUSER WITH BUBBLE COUNTER' I tried counting bubbles... but I dont see a single bubble after waiting 3 minutes. I took a video of how much is coming out:







Remove the difuser entirely? thats harder than just turning it off (I dont like to disturb my aquascape as much as possible).


This is the one I purchased:
Fluval Mini pressurized: (quoted) This Mini Pressurized CO2 Kit is ideal for small planted aquariums up to 15 gallons. 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N36MAO4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

You are getting things mixed up a Par meter is used to see how strong the lights are in a tank.
Watch George on how to set up an run a Co2 system.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

EdWiser said:


> You are getting things mixed up a Par meter is used to see how strong the lights are in a tank.
> Watch George on how to set up an run a Co2 system.
> https://youtu.be/JZV73ojfQ_s


 I understand what a PAR meter is... I had one many many years ago. 

But isnt the amount of CO2 based on your lights? 

More lights = more CO2 = more ferts? all dependent on plant demands?


That is the way I understood it.
Edit: That video doesnt answer my question... If I wanted a full large CO2 system, then OK. But im using what I have, and trying to ensure it works the way I want before I upgrade.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> ...
> 
> Remove the difuser entirely? thats harder than just turning it off (I dont like to disturb my aquascape as much as possible).


I don't mean take it off the tubing. I just mean remove the diffuser from the tank and let it run outside of the tank. With those small disposable systems it's very hard to find the same output once you turn it on/off.

Also, easy way to get tubing off the diffuser is to push the tubing straight up toward the glass stem and then pull straight down. Don't twist or bend it because you will probably break the glass stem.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Using the recommendation from the above video of 1 bubble per second per 100 liters and doing a little converting, you would want about 1 bubble every 2 seconds.

From what I understand (I don't run CO2 yet) is that the disposable systems aren't terribly reliable or cost effective.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Darkblade48 said:


> The indicator (bromothymol blue) will turn an emerald green when you are in the ballpark of 30 ppm of CO2.


 Ok... so drop checker is in with liquid.


The CO2 is on the lowest setting possible... getting that lowest setting is quite the feat as its less than 1mm of a turn. That doesnt do anything to the indicator (dark blue after 4 hours). But the plants are COVERED in bubbles. 





Could it be because I have a higher pH in my tank? I read the below on a website.
Should I increase the CO2 till its green? to get to the amount I need is very hard with this manual turning system... very difficult for those of us with arthritis (a fraction of a milliliter at a time with a itty bitty metal dial). I thihnk this will become a nightmare turning it on and off each day and waiting 2 hours between fraction turns. Will any solenoid valve and timer work with this small system so I can turn it off at night?or should I just upgrade to a bigger one?


'Drop checkers don’t actually monitor CO2, they monitor pH. When you add CO2 (an acidic gas) into your tank, it reduces the pH. When your drop checker is showing blue, it’s telling you the pH is around 8 (far too high for plants). As you inject CO2 your drop checker will change colour (assuming you’re injecting enough CO2). The solution will begin to look a bit more green. When it hits a nice shade of green it means your pH is about 6.8 and your CO2 levels are 30ppm (parts per million). Green is the ideal colour to aim for and what you need to strive for.'


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> Ok... so drop checker is in with liquid.
> 
> 
> The CO2 is on the lowest setting possible... getting that lowest setting is quite the feat as its less than 1mm of a turn. That doesnt do anything to the indicator (dark blue after 4 hours). But the plants are COVERED in bubbles.
> ...



Are you running local tap water? What is your normal pH and kH? If it is anything like mine, you will want to shoot for a pH of 7.3-7.4.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Are you running local tap water? What is your normal pH and kH? If it is anything like mine, you will want to shoot for a pH of 7.3-7.4.


 The tank uses tap, and my stone is the decorah shale from outside. I was OK with the pH being 7.6- 7.8 (I tested my tap, and the decorah shale in the water prior to designing the tank. I could use a ph down... but I would rather not get into that drama. hmmm


I definitely have melted plants (AR mini especially) and some brown even edges on some leaves with some brown algae on plants (especially water sprite). Never had that before... My other tanks are all low tech, heavily planted...
Here Parameters:
pH: 7.6 
GH: 6
KH 5
Ammonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20ppm
Phosphate .25-.5 (I cant tell)


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

This calculator will tell you how low you need your PH to drop with co2 to achieve 30ppm.

https://rotalabutterfly.com/co2-ph-calculator.php

You don't have to get 30ppm, if your worried about your fish, shoot for something less, like 20-25ppm. If your PH is 7.6 generally you need a 1 point drop to 6.6 If your PH is still 7.6 and 7.6-7.8 out of the tap then your not getting really any co2 at the moment.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Ok, your pH and KH are much lower than mine. If you are being conservative on CO2, I think you'd want to add it until your pH drops down to the 6.8 to 7.0 range.

My tap in Inver Grove Heights is 8.2 to 8.4 for pH and 15 to 17 for KH.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Ok, your pH and KH are much lower than mine. If you are being conservative on CO2, I think you'd want to add it until your pH drops down to the 6.8 to 7.0 range.
> 
> My tap in Inver Grove Heights is 8.2 to 8.4 for pH and 15 to 17 for KH.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk



We have a water softener/filtration- so that's prolly why. I keep forgetting my hubby spent a fortune hooking it all up when we built the new house.


note: I take back the melting plants I think it am just being OCD... now I see my tissue cultures are about 3 times the size! but the plants in back (the larger AR mini and bolbis, and the watersprite) seems to have the most issue. The outlet was blowing on them, so I moved it slightly.


QUESTION: so do I leave it on 24/7? 

I hear very conflicting reviews that the swings are not good and then contrary that the CO2 at night will choke the fish.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Ok... I’m at emerald gree. But you can barely see it from the bubbles! How many bubbles are normal. Things looked like Christmas came early on all the plants. 

My endler macaroni looks stressed as he is swimming into the current (cheese is fine... she can care less if it doesn’t involve food). 

Thoughts?


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> We have a water softener/filtration- so that's prolly why. I keep forgetting my hubby spent a fortune hooking it all up when we built the new house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You use softened water? I have heard that the extra sodium isn't good for the plants long term. I actually ran new plumbing at my house to avoid it actually.

I hear that most often that people turn off CO2 and sometimes run an airstone at night. You could always run an airstone, but you'd be wasting CO2.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> You use softened water? I have heard that the extra sodium isn't good for the plants long term. I actually ran new plumbing at my house to avoid it actually.
> 
> I hear that most often that people turn off CO2 and sometimes run an airstone at night. You could always run an airstone, but you'd be wasting CO2.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


 My water has gh/kh of 3 and pH of 7.4-7.6 out of the water softener.... 

Straight out of the hose is kh 4, gh 7 and ph 8.4. 



Its on a very low setting. My concern is that the Calcium/Magnesium is replaced with Salt Ions. So I am careful to add back in magnesium and calcium. I did it DIY before, but after further research I will be using Equilibrium. I could use our RO water, but its a huge pain in the arse as it is meant only for drinking, so filling my buckets in the kitchen would be nearly impossible. 

I guess I could use the spicket in the garage to fill buckets... but it comes out ice cold, so then I would need to heat it, etc. Maybe ill do 50/50 mix in the future. 



I now use mini pliers to turn on the CO2.... it didnt blow up this AM when I turned it on and my tester is still emerald 

Happy mothers day


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## Ankhari (Apr 30, 2018)

Out of curiosity, how are you liking this setup so far?

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Ankhari said:


> Out of curiosity, how are you liking this setup so far?
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


 I like that it was easy to originally set up, and inexpensive to give it a try (20 bucks). 

However; The silver knob on the top needs to be set to the bare minimum. Its far too easy to turn it too far (fraction of a mm). This may be less of an issue if you had a larger tank that eequired more CO2- as then you could just mark off the notche.The difuser that came with it was HUGE. I think around 4x3x1.5 inches! I found a different disfuser online with next day delivery for 12.00/ so its nice I can actually swap out parts.

I do worry that I will forget to turn it on or off one day (as life always throws you a curve ball) and it could potentially hurt my fish, or I will run out of CO2 (no way to see how much is left).... I have not noticed a decrease in algae at this time. Im going to keep this going for 2 more weeks, and will then potentially upgrade to something with a timer or better controls.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> This calculator will tell you how low you need your PH to drop with co2 to achieve 30ppm.
> 
> https://rotalabutterfly.com/co2-ph-calculator.php
> 
> You don't have to get 30ppm, if your worried about your fish, shoot for something less, like 20-25ppm. If your PH is 7.6 generally you need a 1 point drop to 6.6 If your PH is still 7.6 and 7.6-7.8 out of the tap then your not getting really any co2 at the moment.


This is where these charts and calculators lose me a bit, as far as logic. For instance, in my main display tank, my dKH is 5 and pH without co2 is about 7.4. The charts and calculators say that I need to hit a pH of 6.7 in order to hit that 30 ppm mark, however the common advice is to go for a full point drop. According to the charts and calculators, a full point drop with my dKH would be lethal to living organisms, but my tank is being lowered to approximately 6.2 without the fish and inverts suffering.

So am I simply lucky or are there inaccuracies in these calculations or what's going on here? It is difficult for me to fully wrap my head around.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

varanidguy said:


> This is where these charts and calculators lose me a bit, as far as logic. For instance, in my main display tank, my dKH is 5 and pH without co2 is about 7.4. The charts and calculators say that I need to hit a pH of 6.7 in order to hit that 30 ppm mark, however the common advice is to go for a full point drop. According to the charts and calculators, a full point drop with my dKH would be lethal to living organisms, but my tank is being lowered to approximately 6.2 without the fish and inverts suffering.
> 
> So am I simply lucky or are there inaccuracies in these calculations or what's going on here? It is difficult for me to fully wrap my head around.


It's a good question. Is the KH independent than the chart numbers would be inaccurate. Or is it only good for most PH/KH ranges that start out with less co2 then you out of tap.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

varanidguy said:


> This is where these charts and calculators lose me a bit, as far as logic. For instance, in my main display tank, my dKH is 5 and pH without co2 is about 7.4. The charts and calculators say that I need to hit a pH of 6.7 in order to hit that 30 ppm mark, however the common advice is to go for a full point drop. According to the charts and calculators, a full point drop with my dKH would be lethal to living organisms, but my tank is being lowered to approximately 6.2 without the fish and inverts suffering.
> 
> So am I simply lucky or are there inaccuracies in these calculations or what's going on here? It is difficult for me to fully wrap my head around.


The chart ignores your starting pH and assumes it is RODI water with enough carbonate to get the desired kH. In your case your starting 'theoretical pH' at kh=5 should be 7.7 to go to 6.7 would be a 1 ph drop and achieve 30ppm dissolved CO2.

The values in the chart are derived by using this formula:

3*kh*10^(7-ph)=[Co2]ppm

ph is the final ph after injection not the starting one or a difference.

The chart is useless for just about everyone because most municipal water has buffers dissolved in it which raise or lower the pH from 'theoretical'.

You would be better off just assuming 1 ph drop from your degassed tank water is ~30ppm and optimizing from there based on your plants and fish. If you are dropping to 6.2 from 7.4(assuming that is degassed for 48 hours) you can assume that you are close enough to 30ppm+ of CO2.


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## Cinnamonamon (Oct 24, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> We have a water softener/filtration- so that's prolly why. I keep forgetting my hubby spent a fortune hooking it all up when we built the new house.
> 
> 
> note: I take back the melting plants I think it am just being OCD... now I see my tissue cultures are about 3 times the size! but the plants in back (the larger AR mini and bolbis, and the watersprite) seems to have the most issue. The outlet was blowing on them, so I moved it slightly.
> ...


completely off topic, but I couldn't bare to skip replying...your tank is GORGEOUS, livebearerlove!!


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> The chart ignores your starting pH and assumes it is RODI water with enough carbonate to get the desired kH. In your case your starting 'theoretical pH' at kh=5 should be 7.7 to go to 6.7 would be a 1 ph drop and achieve 30ppm dissolved CO2.
> 
> The values in the chart are derived by using this formula:
> 
> ...



Which buffers are there in most folks drinking water that are not accounted for? The primary one that I would be concerned with is carbonate, which is certainly accounted for.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Cinnamonamon said:


> completely off topic, but I couldn't bare to skip replying...your tank is GORGEOUS, livebearerlove!!


 Thank you! 

I made some minor changes yesterday, but its turning out very nicely.... cant wait for it to keep growing out. I need to trim that watersprite daily basically otherwise it shoots of roots at ever node that get brown and fuzzy.... I basically have buckets full of watersprite after just a couple weeks in the tank!


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## Cinnamonamon (Oct 24, 2018)

Someday....someday MAYBE I will fall down the CO2 rabbit hole...but I do like low maintenance, lol!


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Which buffers are there in most folks drinking water that are not accounted for? The primary one that I would be concerned with is carbonate, which is certainly accounted for.


Borates, Silicates, Phosphates, excess Hydroxyl who knows. Most muncipal water is treated lye, ash or somethingelse basic to remove hardness and prevent pipe corrosion. If so it will be more basic(higher ph) than simply from carbonates.

That chart is worthless if your water pH doesn't match up perfectly with your kH which is most cases it won't.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Borates, Silicates, Phosphates, excess Hydroxyl who knows. Most muncipal water is treated lye, ash or somethingelse basic to remove hardness and prevent pipe corrosion. If so it will be more basic(higher ph) than simply from carbonates.
> 
> That chart is worthless if your water pH doesn't match up perfectly with your kH which is most cases it won't.


Are we talking about the same chart?

I am talking about this one.










kH and pH are the Y and X axes, respectively, so I don't understand how they would need to match up perfectly. I also don't understand why the other components would be meaningful, since this is governed by the carbonic acid dissociation equilibrium with respect to pH. LeChatelier's Principle is pretty straightforward (for chemistry  ).


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Are we talking about the same chart?
> 
> I am talking about this one.
> 
> ...


I think you fundamentally don't understand that chart, I was in your shoes 3 months ago so I'll try one more time to explain it. In my opinion(and many others) more people have been misled by that chart than it helped.

*First as an approximation the chart assumes your starting pH degassed of your tank water has 3ppm CO2 in it and nothing else. Your water must nothing in it Carbonates for hardness which is difficult to know unless you use RODI. (This is the approximation that fails and makes the chart unuseable for most)*

To give you some typical theoretical values for what your degassed pH (from your tap/tank before CO2 injection) should be in order for the chart to be accurate here are some:

kh=1 ph=7
kh=5 ph=7.7
kh=10 ph=8

Now lets look on that chart at each kH value for what your final pH(after CO2 injection) should be for exactly 30ppm of CO2.

kh=1 ph=6
kh=5 ph=6.7 
kh=10 ph=7

Exactly a one point drop gives you 30ppm at all Kh values in the chart(which isn't accurate at low Kh but I won't get into that now).

The chart is calculated using the following formula 3*kh*10^(7-ph)=[Co2]ppm 

*I will reiterate again that the chart does not take into consideration your starting pH it assumes it based on 3ppm CO2 dissolved in water and no other hardness but Carbonates.
*

Now I will ask you a question based on the chart:

1) If you have kh=5 water and your pH is 7.2(not 7.7) and your pH drop is to 6.7 how much CO2 can you estimate you injected using the chart? (Do you think it is the same as a tank with starting ph of 7.7?).

2) How about my tank which has a degassed pH of 8.0 and a kh=5 and my pH drop is to 6.5 how much CO2 should I assume I injected into my tank from the chart?

If you can answer those two questions you have gone far beyond the simple calculations used to construct that chart. 

You don't have to take my word for it perhaps @plantbrain (Tom Barr here) might explain or you can go on barrreport.com and he might reply.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I think you fundamentally don't understand that chart, I was in your shoes 3 months ago so I'll try one more time to explain it. In my opinion(and many others) more people have been misled by that chart than it helped.
> 
> *First as an approximation the chart assumes your starting pH degassed of your tank water has 3ppm CO2 in it and nothing else. Your water must nothing in it Carbonates for hardness which is difficult to know unless you use RODI. (This is the approximation that fails and makes the chart unuseable for most)*
> 
> ...



I think that this warrants more discussion, but I don't want to hijack LBL's thread more with this. If you don't mind, I will post another thread on the topic when I have a little more time to get into it. I haven't derived this one myself in awhile (since I was teaching this 15 years ago), so I probably should to compare to this chart and give it the proper rigor.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

livebearerlove said:


> QUESTION: so do I leave it on 24/7?


Beautiful tank, it is inspiring to see what you can grow even without CO2.
I ran CO2 24/7 (w/inline diffusor) in a 17gallon with a 1.45(day minimmum) - 1.6(night maximum) ph drop for over a year, and will continue to run it that way in my new scape.

In small tanks its practical to run CO2 24/7, why bother buying an expensive regulator or a cheap solenoid that could malfunction. Your kit has a hard to adjust valve but that is perfectly fine if you set it and forget it at such low CO2 tank pressures.

Watch your fish and pH the first night or two but with good O2 exchange it isn't a problem. I am probably pushing the CO2 much higher than you need to(2bps), even 1bps is probably more than you need in a 10g(I'd start with 30bpm and check pH), the only major downside to 24/7 in nano tanks is that you waste CO2.

The trick is to have high surface area(not too deep tank, you are fine in a rectangular standard 10g), good surface agitation (lily pipe, skimmer).
I currently have a plastic tub with similar dimensions to my tank with no skimmer and it has been fine as well.



Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I think that this warrants more discussion, but I don't want to hijack LBL's thread more with this. If you don't mind, I will post another thread on the topic when I have a little more time to get into it. I haven't derived this one myself in awhile (since I was teaching this 15 years ago), so I probably should to compare to this chart and give it the proper rigor.


Beleive me I understand, I am a former Chemist(over a decade ago) I taught for 6+ years in the Generel Chemistry labs at McGill while working on my pHD, I was more than a bit rusty when I first started on this forum. A few month ago Tom Barr sophistry tripped me up and I referenced this chart when I first started posting here, I have learned not to ever reference this material in future and I think you will arrive at the same conclusions given your background and careful study.

IMO Barr is very good at simplifying down concepts for the masses but often the message is misleading or applied wrong by novices(like in this thread) and he rarely emphasizes caveats to his methods which is the problem with reading his material and following it or parroting blindly.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I think that this warrants more discussion, but I don't want to hijack LBL's thread more with this. If you don't mind, I will post another thread on the topic when I have a little more time to get into it. I haven't derived this one myself in awhile (since I was teaching this 15 years ago), so I probably should to compare to this chart and give it the proper rigor.




Would you mind tagging me in that thread? I’d love to learn more about this subject.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> Beleive me I understand, I am a former Chemist(over a decade ago) I taught for 6+ years in the Generel Chemistry labs at McGill while working on my pHD, I was more than a bit rusty when I first started on this forum. A few month ago Tom Barr sophistry tripped me up and I referenced this chart when I first started posting here, I have learned not to ever reference this material in future and I think you will arrive at the same conclusions given your background and careful study.
> 
> IMO Barr is very good at simplifying down concepts for the masses but often the message is misleading or applied wrong by novices(like in this thread) and he rarely emphasizes caveats to his methods which is the problem with reading his material and following it or parroting blindly.


Great, this should be great discussion. I too have a PhD in chemistry, so we should be able to get through some good stuff. I can't attest to how useful the chart itself is, but I do have some questions about your explanations. I look forward to digging through it, and even disagreeing, if we can do so without being disagreeable.  I don't take these kind of things as gospel, but saying that they have no utility probably isn't accurate either. To effectively use a tool, we must understand what it tells us and and probably more importantly what it doesn't, IMO.



varanidguy said:


> Would you mind tagging me in that thread? I’d love to learn more about this subject.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds like a party.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Great, this should be great discussion.
> Sounds like a party.


I dont mind a hijack... Im sure people would appreciate a bit more discussion on the topic... I know I do! I would also be willing to do experiments... I have a masters in Science- bio side. So I am very interested. If we need a discussion, or a controlled experiment- I can assist


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Ok, UPDATE:
I need to turn the top about 1/2 a mm.... it is nearly impossible... if I go just slightly too far is blows up. then im reaching into the tank and trying to pull this thing out and the fish (and fry) get terrified. I want to upgrade to something else, this tiny metal button is a mess. Ill update in a few more days... but this is not sustainable unless I can leave it on 24/7


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> Ok, UPDATE:
> I need to turn the top about 1/2 a mm.... it is nearly impossible... if I go just slightly too far is blows up. then im reaching into the tank and trying to pull this thing out and the fish (and fry) get terrified. I want to upgrade to something else, this tiny metal button is a mess. Ill update in a few more days... but this is not sustainable unless I can leave it on 24/7


That's why I recommended you take the diffuser out at night and leave it on 24/7 as opposed to shutting it off. It's very difficult to get the same setting over and over again.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> That's why I recommended you take the diffuser out at night and leave it on 24/7 as opposed to shutting it off. It's very difficult to get the same setting over and over again.


Now I understand where you were coming from. However; Doesnt it need to be at the bottom of the tank? then im washing my hands like crazy to remove medication from my hands, reaching into the bottom of the tank, bothering the fish or also adding a bubbler at night? correct me if im wrong.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> Now I understand where you were coming from. However; Doesnt it need to be at the bottom of the tank? then im washing my hands like crazy to remove medication from my hands, reaching into the bottom of the tank, bothering the fish or also adding a bubbler at night? correct me if im wrong.


You could add an air stone that you run at night. That should be enough to offset the co2 and keep your fish from being harmed.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

That's another way to go with the airstone, but still somewhat risky since the co2 will only drop based on how much surface agitation is created. It should be pretty simple to remove a small diffuser from an aquarium and put it back in. Your lost me with "remove medication from my hands"


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

To be honest, if you plan on running CO2 long term, you could solve these problems with a modest investment in a better quality system. It's a one time investment, and is more economical long term.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> To be honest, if you plan on running CO2 long term, you could solve these problems with a modest investment in a better quality system. It's a one time investment, and is more economical long term.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I second this sentiment but I had a hard time thinking of phrasing it without sounding like a jerk.

Bump:


Bunsen Honeydew said:


> To be honest, if you plan on running CO2 long term, you could solve these problems with a modest investment in a better quality system. It's a one time investment, and is more economical long term.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I second this sentiment but I had a hard time thinking of phrasing it without sounding like a jerk.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

I hope that I didn't sound like a jerk.[emoji6]. I don't even run CO2 and have never done more than diy, so I'm not a system snob.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I hope that I didn't sound like a jerk.[emoji6]. I don't even run CO2 and have never done more than diy, so I'm not a system snob.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk




I don’t think you did! FWIW


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I think OP knows he will upgrade long-term. Just trying to help with what he has now to make it usable and safe for the fish. Disposable systems are not at all cost-effective long term and are usually not very precise.

They do sometimes work in certain situations. I did have an 88 gram one on a 2 Gal tank that didn't have fish and each cylinder lasted around 3 months. I just left it on 24/7 and it held. Used it for well over a year.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

varanidguy said:


> I don’t think you did! FWIW
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ha, I was kidding. I know that I am a jerk.


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> I think OP knows he will upgrade long-term. Just trying to help with what he has now to make it usable and safe for the fish. Disposable systems are not at all cost-effective long term and are usually not very precise.
> 
> They do sometimes work in certain situations. I did have an 88 gram one on a 2 Gal tank that didn't have fish and each cylinder lasted around 3 months. I just left it on 24/7 and it held. Used it for well over a year.


It can also make it more tolerable if you purchase the bicycle tire refills rather than the Fluval branded stuff. The former is much, much less expensive.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

varanidguy said:


> It can also make it more tolerable if you purchase the bicycle tire refills rather than the Fluval branded stuff. The former is much, much less expensive.


Yep, good point. I was purchasing refills that are normally used for air guns which I got on the cheap compared to the ones that came with my Macro Aqua one. Didn't even think about bicycle tire refills.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I can't attest to how useful the chart itself is but I do have some questions about your explanations. I look forward to digging through it


Knock yourself out, once you have studied it to your satisfaction feel free to @ mention me if you still have questions.

Bump:


livebearerlove said:


> I can leave it on 24/7


Then why not do that?
It works well in small tanks with good gas exchange.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

​


Asteroid said:


> That's another way to go with the airstone, but still somewhat risky since the co2 will only drop based on how much surface agitation is created. It should be pretty simple to remove a small diffuser from an aquarium and put it back in. Your lost me with "remove medication from my hands"


I have a medical condition. The chemicals on my hands (which allow me to move my fingers) are extremely toxic to fish. So I would be scrubbing down like a surgeon twice a day. I put the difuser towards the top, ill see how it works to put it in, and then take it out.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

livebearerlove said:


> ​
> I have a medical condition. The chemicals on my hands (which allow me to move my fingers) are extremely toxic to fish. So I would be scrubbing down like a surgeon twice a day. I put the difuser towards the top, ill see how it works to put it in, and then take it out.



Something I'm doing with my CBS 20 high: Running a sugar/yeast DIY CO2 generator in a 1.5 liter soda bottle.


Approximately 1 bubble every 3 seconds when warm.


The output from the bottle, after going through a counter is fed into a squarish DIY sponge block pseudo MattenFilter's open space near the inlet of a suction cup mounted powerhead. The impeller draws the CO2 into a long undulating bubble that pretty much disperses before being drawn into the impeller itself, although it does a tiny amount of burping.


This is a Crystal Black Shrimp tank and the GH is about 1~2, so I have to keep the CO2 levels low, probably less than 10 ppm at present.


At night I pull the CO2 'pipe' ( airline tubing..) out of the Mattenfilter block and rest it a couple inches below the surface where it just bubbles to the water's surface without diffusing, much. Then open the air inlet on the powerhead's outlet that streams a little air directly into the flow to oxygenate during the night. And before the lights come on reverse the process.


I don't have to touch any of the water with my hands with this system just move the very low pressure CO2 outlet to 2 different places. 



It's pretty simple despite the lengthy description. I was setting up 24/7 CO2 generators way back in the past, ( I was doing planted tanks back in the early 1990's... My 29 gallon. This tank had an ancient Lee's HOB powerfilter with 2 giant J-tube siphons, and a shaded pole 110 volt AC motor that sat above the filter box, definitely not UL approved to today's use.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I think you fundamentally don't understand that chart, I was in your shoes 3 months ago so I'll try one more time to explain it. In my opinion(and many others) more people have been misled by that chart than it helped.
> 
> *First as an approximation the chart assumes your starting pH degassed of your tank water has 3ppm CO2 in it and nothing else. Your water must nothing in it Carbonates for hardness which is difficult to know unless you use RODI. (This is the approximation that fails and makes the chart unuseable for most)*
> 
> ...



I have had a chance to look at the methodology a bit this morning. Sorry for the delay, I have been sequestered to the lab for a few days (I love when that happens). I don't understand why Barr would use such a simplistic methodology, especially since he was putting the outputs into a chart and there are several well established methodologies in the literature already. All he needed to do was cut and paste different formulas into his excel file. 

There are a few things from your explanation that I either do not agree with or understand. The first is why you are putting so much weight on missing initial pH and GH. Since the amount of CO2 is a function of kH and pH, if you input the initial pH and kH you can find your initial CO2 concentrations, but you only need that if you are looking for how much needs to be injected. I don't find that terribly useful, what is more important is what parameters (pH) need to be met to take your CO2 concentrations to your desired levels. 

Could you expand on the logic of why the GH is important? Since you KH measurement already captured your dissolve carbonate and bicarbonate, wouldn't any contribution be relatively negligible? Certainly temperature would be a larger factor, but that hasn't seemed to raise any concern.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> ​
> I have a medical condition. The chemicals on my hands (which allow me to move my fingers) are extremely toxic to fish. So I would be scrubbing down like a surgeon twice a day. I put the difuser towards the top, ill see how it works to put it in, and then take it out.


Sorry to hear that. Is it possible to wear a type of thin glove over year hand. You would need to do other maintenance as well. Anyway, whatever you do don't leave on 24/7. IMO it's risky if you care about your fish. No one given you advise knows how precise that needle valve is or how much co2 is being released at this point.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

Another solution that would not involve removing the diffuser, putting your hands in the tank or messing with your control valve would be to put a T on the CO2 line with a valve. When the valve is open, the CO2 would bled into the room because of the pressure on the diffuser from the water. Close the bleed valve and it would operate as normal.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Sorry to hear that. Is it possible to wear a type of thin glove over year hand. You would need to do other maintenance as well. Anyway, whatever you do don't leave on 24/7. IMO it's risky if you care about your fish. No one given you advise knows how precise that needle valve is or how much co2 is being released at this point.



Wasn't it explained earlier in this thread that the needle valve is very touchy for adjustment? The OP wasn't wanting to have to painstakingly have to reset the flow every morning. This is a simple inexpensive flow regulator IIRC and cannot be put on a solenoid and timer.


If one adjusts their CO2 flow to very slow bubble counts, yes, in fact you can run a CO2 system 24/7.


I did it for 3 years back in the 1990's with sugar yeast systems, on a couple plant tanks that I was trimming monthly and bringing in the trimmings to our club's meeting's auctions.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Wasn't it explained earlier in this thread that the needle valve is very touchy for adjustment? The OP wasn't wanting to have to painstakingly have to reset the flow every morning. This is a simple inexpensive flow regulator IIRC and cannot be put on a solenoid and timer.


Exactly, that's why I'm telling him to take it out so he doesn't have to turn it on/off or adjust. Not sure why your quoting me.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Asteroid said:


> Exactly, that's why I'm telling him to take it out so he doesn't have to turn it on/off or adjust. Not sure why your quoting me.



Because the OP doesn't want to. Because toxic hand cream issues.


I think Bunsen's idea has merit, although finding a decent diverter valve at the hobbyist/LFS level that has CO2 resistant seals might be an issue.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Because the OP doesn't want to. Because toxic hand cream issues.


What does that have to do with your comment below. That is exactly why I was having him remove at night without turning on/off. 



GrampsGrunge said:


> Wasn't it explained earlier in this thread that the needle valve is very touchy for adjustment? The OP wasn't wanting to have to painstakingly have to reset the flow every morning. This is a simple inexpensive flow regulator IIRC and cannot be put on a solenoid and timer.
> 
> .


Good luck with the diverter, etc. He'll get rid of this system soon enough anyway, I was trying to make it usable RIGHT now in the most simple way. (since I've used one of these in the past, have you?) Why would I assume someone with a fish tank can't put his hands in the tank?


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Another solution that would not involve removing the diffuser, putting your hands in the tank or messing with your control valve would be to put a T on the CO2 line with a valve. When the valve is open, the CO2 would bled into the room because of the pressure on the diffuser from the water. Close the bleed valve and it would operate as normal.



Im not sure why I didnt think of that... I suppose many things were overwhelming outside of this tank, and that gave me tunnel vision. Now to find the worlds smallest valve, haha

Bump:


Asteroid said:


> Sorry to hear that. Is it possible to wear a type of thin glove over year hand. You would need to do other maintenance as well. Anyway, whatever you do don't leave on 24/7. IMO it's risky if you care about your fish. No one given you advise knows how precise that needle valve is or how much co2 is being released at this point.


I do very detailed maintenance- just not twice a day... I basically trim/scape twice a week. I believe the fish would also appreciate me not digging into their habitat twice a day either. There is a line between planted care and fish care. I love my plants aesthetic and the design/growing process.... but at the same time breeding these guys to compliment the tank is ridiculously rewarding.



I think that valve is a good idea... I just have to find one that is small enough. I spend time with all my tanks throughout the day, so if I can find something suitable it has to be hella easier than when I was hooking up the bear of a canister filter/lily pipes. 



Im going to look into the yeast idea as well... if nothing more it seems like a great experiment/project.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> Im not sure why I didnt think of that... I suppose many things were overwhelming outside of this tank, and that gave me tunnel vision. Now to find the worlds smallest valve, haha


It might be easier than you think. What size is your tubing, I can probably point you at something quickly.

Bump:

Assuming that it is 3/16", I'd start with a simple aquarium airline T and valve.

https://fishlab.com/bleed-valve/


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

livebearerlove said:


> Im not sure why I didnt think of that... I suppose many things were overwhelming outside of this tank, and that gave me tunnel vision. Now to find the worlds smallest valve, haha
> 
> Bump:
> I do very detailed maintenance- just not twice a day... I basically trim/scape twice a week. I believe the fish would also appreciate me not digging into their habitat twice a day either. There is a line between planted care and fish care. I love my plants aesthetic and the design/growing process.... but at the same time breeding these guys to compliment the tank is ridiculously rewarding.
> ...



Yeast/Sugar CO2 is definitely a workable alternative. But probably not long term like others mentioned. 



For my uses it's basic pluses are: ease of DIY setup and low pressures involved. It's easy to find sugar and yeast on weekends. Any seal-able water or soda bottle will suffice for minor amounts of CO2 supplementation. If you're not caught up in maintaining 30 ppm CO2 levels, and can find deals on sugar it works great for tanks 5 to 30 gallons.



It tends to not work so well with scintered glass diffusers where you need about 20+ pound pressure to diffuse with. I've always used it low pressure either into a powerhead directly which chops up the bubbles, or into a section of tubing between the filter media and the suction side of the powerhead to allow the CO2 to dissolve in a moving column of downward flowing water. Initial set up is a bit tricky using low pressure but the results are less CO2 misting and the filter media isn't subjected to lower oxygen and pH levels.


I also use in-tank sponge filters powered by powerheads, as HOB filters, depending on design, will disturb the water surface enough to lower CO2 levels. You can of course direct the CO2 into the throttling chamber of a AquaClear, tends to make a bit of noise.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I don't understand why Barr would use such a simplistic methodology, especially since he was putting the outputs into a chart and there are several well established methodologies in the literature already.


No idea which methodologies you are referring, to my knowledge there is no 'easy' way without expensive equipment or tests to accurately measure CO2 levels in an aqaurium.

Tom Barr publshed something simple for hobbyists to use and reference, but the limitations are only understood and explained properly by some.

Even the approximation that 1ph drop is 30ppm may not be accurate depending upon what other unknowns are in the water and atmopsheric pressure and temperature. For all we know many people have 2ppm dissolved in their water not 3 and only 20ppm CO2 instead of 30 and yet their plants are doing fine.

I am setting up a new scape this week, my spiderwood drops the pH in the tank by 0.3. If I used the Barr chart, my kH is the same, the CO2 injection is the same, however my pH is different. Now according to the chart I'm supposed to have 94.6ppm CO2 in my tank, that is lethal for fish and of course completely overstated, I have the same amount of CO2 injected as I did before I put in the spiderwood.



> All he needed to do was cut and paste different formulas into his excel file.


Not sure what you mean by that, paste the formulas here you would use. 



> There are a few things from your explanation that I either do not agree with or understand. The first is why you are putting so much weight on missing initial pH and GH.


I never said anything about gH anywhere(never wrote that term) it is irrelevant, the kH is what is important. 

If you agree the chart is rubbish, and you measure your tank water after it has been degassed to capture pH, then you add CO2 to reach a target pH drop of 1 which could approximate 30ppm than we are finally on the same page. 

Measuring kH is also not necessary, the approximation is reasonable as long as your kH is between 1 and 10.



> Could you expand on the logic of why the GH is important?


It isn't for calculating CO2. I think that confusion is that my original post referred to Carbonate Hardness (kH) or Hardness of Carbonates which if you just read hardness you might think I was referring to General Hardness(gH).


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Her is where the tank stands now on May 16th (today)
-Dont Laugh!
I have a bit of brown algae on my lily pipe and some of my plants... none on the glass, etc. Plants are growing at an exponential rate. I got the CO2 down to 1 bubble every 10 seconds. Laugh if you will... but Ill try increasing it ever so slightly in a bit. My drop checker is still emerald green- I figure something is better than nothing while I figure it out.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> No idea which methodologies you are referring, to my knowledge there is no 'easy' way without expensive equipment or tests to accurately measure CO2 levels in an aqaurium.
> 
> Tom Barr publshed something simple for hobbyists to use and reference, but the limitations are only understood and explained properly by some.
> 
> ...


There is an online calculator that cites three different methodologies to calculating dissolved CO2 as a function of pH and kH. There are citations with (broken) links to the papers. If the link doesn't get you there, Google will. They have done the work with the expensive equipment.

https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php



cl3537 said:


> I never said anything about gH anywhere(never wrote that term) it is irrelevant, the kH is what is important.
> 
> If you agree the chart is rubbish, and you measure your tank water after it has been degassed to capture pH, then you add CO2 to reach a target pH drop of 1 which could approximate 30ppm than we are finally on the same page.
> 
> ...


You had mentioned other water hardness needed to be considered, so I likely assumed that's where you were thinking.

The temperature will certainly affect the amount of dissolved gas, but that wasn't the point. 

Either way, check out the calculator that I linked. I only played with it enough to see that it was different than the Barr chart and to read some of the most current reference.. I am not certain of his algorithm, but I was going to reverse engineer it a bit when I get the chance. The reverse engineering in Excel is probably less time consuming that digesting the complete paper. It would be nice to have a semi-reliable tool available for those of us with a kH north of 10.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> There is an online calculator that cites three different methodologies to calculating dissolved CO2 as a function of pH and kH. there are citation with (broken) links to the papers. If the link doesn't get you there, Google will. They have done the work with the expensive equipment.


I don't see the link, however, there is no "expensive lab equipment" that someonelse has that will give some 'perfect formula' to tell you about calculating CO2 for your high kH water. 

Lamotte uses Phenolphthalein and titrates with alkali(NaOH(?)) to determine CO2 in their kit http://www.lamotte.com/en/aquarium-fish-farming/individual-test-kits/7297-dr-01.html , if your lab is setup for it you could try that, its a better method as any equation will ever be. You will have two equilibrium constants to deal with and two equivalence points to get back to your current pH. 











However you are still left with a ton of unknowns so why bother. pH won't drop much till you get past the first carbonate/bicarb equivalence point, so with high kH maybe shoot for 0.7ph drop and see how your plants and fish react.



> You had mentioned other water hardness needed to be considered


Kh is equivalents of carbonate hardness. Other buffers (borates, silicates, phosphates, organic acids and basis) create 'hardness' and will affect pH and the measurement of kH 'equivalent carbonate hardness'.

I was not talking about Calcium, Magnesium and other ions measured in general hardness(gh) they have negligible impact on pH, they are far too weak bases to affect the equilibrium.

Best of luck hopefully someone learned to avoid the Tom Barr chart and calculators and why from my posts. 
You can also read why from Dennis Wong https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/monitor-co2-level.html


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> ...
> Best of luck hopefully someone learned to avoid the Tom Barr chart and calculators and why from my posts.
> ....


If you want to keep bashing Tom Barr just start a new thread and be upfront about it. We should definitely follow your advise over Tom Barr's based on your extensive experience and results.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I don't see the link, however, there is no "expensive lab equipment" that someonelse has that will give some 'perfect formula' to tell you about calculating CO2 for your high kH water.
> 
> Lamotte uses Phenolphthalein and titrates with alkali(NaOH(?)) to determine CO2 in their kit http://www.lamotte.com/en/aquarium-fish-farming/individual-test-kits/7297-dr-01.html , if your lab is setup for it you could try that, its a better method as any equation will ever be. You will have two equilibrium constants to deal with and two equivalence points to get back to your current pH.
> 
> ...


Fixed above post to add link

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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Wasn't it explained earlier in this thread that the needle valve is very touchy for adjustment? The OP wasn't wanting to have to painstakingly have to reset the flow every morning. This is a simple inexpensive flow regulator IIRC and cannot be put on a solenoid and timer.
> 
> 
> If one adjusts their CO2 flow to very slow bubble counts, yes, in fact you can run a CO2 system 24/7.
> ...


+1 I agree.

These small systems are designed to be low pressure, slow rates, and to be left on. Many people run nano tanks probably the majority who actually use CO2 run it 24/7.

Rarely would someone pay $300 for co2 tank, quality regulator, quality solenoid, diffusor, for a small little 5G or 10G. 

You could use a splitter with two airline tubing control valves https://www.amazon.com/Pawfly-Aquar...bing+splitter&qid=1558051336&s=gateway&sr=8-5 but that is silly to me why bother going through all the trouble, just adjust the bubble rate to low and keep it on 24/7, measure the pH drop at night with lights off after many hours to get the max drop and adjust to less if necessary.

I can get 9 months to a year out of a 5lb tank running CO2 24/7 in my 17 gallon, CO2 waste is hardly a cost issue in such small tanks, nor is gassing fish with such good o2 exchange.

The experienced Aquascaper at my go to store was incredulous when I mentioned people wanting to use a solenoid for a nano tank.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

I don't think anyone is suggesting a $300 system, but one could get set up with a smaller system for under $100. I was eyeballing a setup (paintball) on FB marketplace this morning that was less than 70.

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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting a $300 system, but one could get set up with a smaller system for under $100. I was eyeballing a setup (paintball) on FB marketplace this morning that was less than 70.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


Yep, the vast majority of pressurized co2 users spend around $100-$150 on a complete system. I have used systems in this price range for years without issue. There was never a question about the disposable system being difficult to adjust that's why I recommended taking the diffuser out at night instead of turning off/on all the time. It's always risky to run co2 24/7 especially in a small tank where things can go bad really fast.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

*Quality 'Paintball' System*



Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting a $300 system, but one could get set up with a smaller system for under $100. I was eyeballing a setup (paintball) on FB marketplace this morning that was less than 70.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


So then provide a link to all the parts you would use I'd like to see what you could build for $100 USD. Tank, Solenoid, Regulator, Diffusor.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> So then provide a link to all the parts you would use I'd like to see what you could build for $100 USD. Tank, Solenoid, Regulator, Diffusor.


Ok, Mr demanding. Here's a setup for sale locally. I'm sure you'll hate it, but I think most would say it is on par at least with a disposable system and it has a solenoid.
















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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Fixed above post to add link


https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php

A freshwater CO2 calculator, hidden on someones *reef *page, not exactly easy to find and for good reason.
Millero 2002 https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/bibliography/related_files/millero0201.pdf

Page 1711 "*Contributions from Organic Acids are assumed to be negligible.*"

I can tell you in my system with Tannins(Tannic Acid) from spiderwood all these calculation methods just on that point alone would overestimate the amount by 75%.

Even that calculator(all methods) with the pH drop from Tannins ignored, overestimates my CO2 levels by a factor of 1.5 - 3X.
You can look up discussion on The Krib on these calculation methods, outdated, and inaccurate as mentioned in the discussion commentary.


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

I can look up message board discussions that refute peer reviewed publications? Solid idea.

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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Ok, Mr demanding. Here's a setup for sale locally. I'm sure you'll hate it, but I think most would say it is on par at least with a disposable system and it has a solenoid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I asked for links to all the parts preferably NEW, which you didn't provide. 

I am in Canada and the cheapest NEW 5lb CO2 tank(w/shipping) was $80. 
So if you are going to link to rock bottom used prices from your neighbourhood that is hardly fair. 

This isn't for me its for the OP and anyone reading this who might try to cobble together a 'cheap' system.

I know why it isn't dangerous to run 24/7 CO2 in a nano tank at low pressure and bubble rate. Small tanks off gas CO2 and oxygenate the water more quickly, high surface area to volume.






its for the OP, as you claim this is a better option than running CO2 24/7.
I don't know it it is or if it isn't, wit


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

cl3537 said:


> I asked for links to all the parts preferably NEW, which you didn't provide.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair, it is local for the OP too. The guy selling it usually lists at pretty close to list retail prices. 20 ounce paintball bottles are new right now for $30. The aquatek reg is on Amazon for 45. You can find the same in Canada likely, but I am unsure why you think I'm obliged to provide it for you. Not trying to be prickly about it, just don't understand the demands.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> ...
> 
> I know why it isn't dangerous to run 24/7 CO2 in a nano tank at low pressure and bubble rate. Small tanks off gas CO2 and oxygenate the water more quickly, high surface area to volume.


Your missing the entire point as you usually do. It's dangerous to use the disposable or any other system where the needle valve might creep especially in a small tank. If it does in a small tank there is no room for error and everything will die very quickly. That goes with anything you do to a small tank. Your statement shows your lack of understanding between science and real world application in the hobby.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Sometimes you get what you ask for.....
Its dead. How is it dead after such a short time? no clue since I had it set sooo low. So now I guess its time to upgrade.

Can someone point me in the direction I should be looking? specific brands, sizes, etc? 
I have amazon prime, so it would be great if I can find something on there as shipping will be fast. I can spend 70.00 -150.00 easy- but I want to make sure im not buying subpar products.

I was looking at this one, as my tank will go under the desk
Hydrofarm Active Air COSYS20 CO2 with Timer - but this is for very large tanks
https://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-Active-Air-COSYS20-Timer/dp/B0002HFNIA

Most of my 'glass lily' products are made by:
JARDLI Aquarium CO2 Regulator with Solenoid for Planted Tank CO2 Injection System - Adjustable Output Pressure 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07M68PXS...&pd_rd_r=46e4b732-78c7-11e9-bee9-f381f43bc426


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I can look up message board discussions that refute peer reviewed publications? Solid idea.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


You suggested it, did you actually read the 2002 Millero paper referenced from that calculator? 
How about just the title did you read it? "_Dissociation constants for carbonic acid determined from ﬁeld measurements_"
"The carbon dioxide system in the oceans can be characterized..... "










You presented this calculator which puts my CO2 levels at 89 - 100ppm(3 methods) does that seem plausible to you? (of course not it ignored the Tannic Acid from the spiderwood)

The Tom Barr chart does just as poorly at 94.6ppm. 

At 69 Fahrenheit the Tom Barr chart and Millero 2002 values from that calculator are identical for the whole kH and pH range.

Use either they will both tell you the same error prone answer, which assumes a straight line relationship between Delta CO2 / Delta Ph which is was never a good approximation to begin with.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> ...You presented this calculator which puts my CO2 levels at 89 - 100ppm(3 methods) does that seem plausible to you? (of course not it ignored the Tannic Acid from the spiderwood)
> 
> The Tom Barr chart does just as poorly at 94.6ppm...
> .


When you first start up a tank and you have leaching spiderwood you do water changes to bring it back up. I'm assuming you don't have fish in yet so it's a mute point. By the time the tank cycles, etc. the leaching would be at a minimum and not be affecting the water that much.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> Sometimes you get what you ask for.....
> Its dead. How is it dead after such a short time? no clue since I had it set sooo low. So now I guess its time to upgrade.


Sorry to hear it. Nothing worse than fighting with equipment and then have it crap out on you.



livebearerlove said:


> Can someone point me in the direction I should be looking? specific brands, sizes, etc?
> I have amazon prime, so it would be great if I can find something on there as shipping will be fast. I can spend 70.00 -150.00 easy- but I want to make sure im not buying subpar products.


I recently purchased the CO2Art PRO-SE Series. $149 or less depending on where you can find it. It is the dual stage regulator, solenoid (with power light) and bubble counter. The elite is better but twice the price. It took me a little bit to get the flow correct. I had some creep the first day, but I've been running it now for a couple of months without any issue. I put the solenoid on a TP-Link smart plug to turn on and off automatically.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

evil8 said:


> I recently purchased the CO2Art PRO-SE Series. $149 or less depending on where you can find it. It is the dual stage regulator, solenoid (with power light) and bubble counter. The elite is better but twice the price. It took me a little bit to get the flow correct. I had some creep the first day, but I've been running it now for a couple of months without any issue. I put the solenoid on a TP-Link smart plug to turn on and off automatically.


 I took an hour off to mess with it... But i guess that is what 20 bucks gets you.
I heard down the grapevine that the CO2Art are more expensive because you are paying for the label. Is that a true statement in your experience?

This is what my shopping cart looks like right now:


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

@cl3537 @Asteroid
When this tank started I had some issued with my Manzanita actually... I did water changes, but I didnt want to disturb my new rooted culture plants, so I added a API BIO-CHEM ZORB to my Ehiem canister for a stint and it worked brilliantly very quickly. (of course I soaked it in a bucket before,..... but I guess it was not enough).


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## varanidguy (Sep 8, 2017)

livebearerlove said:


> I took an hour off to mess with it... But i guess that is what 20 bucks gets you.
> 
> I heard down the grapevine that the CO2Art are more expensive because you are paying for the label. Is that a true statement in your experience?
> 
> ...




I also have a co2art regulator and, for a dual stage, it’s considerably less expensive than other dual stage options. It has created a bit of debate on these forums so I’m not going to go into it, but suffice it to say I’m satisfied with it.

I also have a UNS mini regulator, looks to be the exact design as the Jardli, and I’m also satisfied with it, however I’ve been running it for a lot less time than the co2art regulator. It is also on a paintball setup, very similar to what you’re looking to purchase. IMO, for a nano tank, it should serve you well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

livebearerlove said:


> @cl3537 @Asteroid
> When this tank started I had some issued with my Manzanita actually... I did water changes, but I didnt want to disturb my new rooted culture plants, so I added a API BIO-CHEM ZORB to my Ehiem canister for a stint and it worked brilliantly very quickly. (of course I soaked it in a bucket before,..... but I guess it was not enough).


I use Purigen (similar to that API stuff you used) in my canister, it takes away any color or cloudiness from the spiderwood but it doesn't prevent the pH drop.

It is well known that some species of wood with high amount of tannins(Tannic Acid) lowers pH for quite a long time it isn't temporary. The species I have (see my journal) will continue to leech for months if not years. I think you can boil it before adding it to the tank but there is a risk that will it will change its integrity and color too much and it won't completely remove all tannins anway.

That isn't much of a problem(except if I was foolish enough to be measuring CO2 with the Barr Chart) but potentially my horned nerites may have a bit of shell rot. I would never add anything that would boost pH artificially.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

OK, so I guess water changes won't bring the PH back up. If your just starting a tank with alot of spiderwood it's a no-brainer that you would be doing a lot of water changes if the PH is being affected that much.


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> I heard down the grapevine that the CO2Art are more expensive because you are paying for the label. Is that a true statement in your experience?


I did a lot of research like you did and decided I'd go top end for my price range. I wanted dual stage, the solenoid and a warranty. I'm more than happy with what I purchased. It's on my newest tank - a standard 45 gallon. I also got a splitter so that at some point in the future I can add my 10 gallon betta tank to the setup. I'm not ready to try that yet, I'd have to get another bubble counter, a diffuser, more tubing AND move all the tanks around. 



livebearerlove said:


> This is what my shopping cart looks like right now:


Jardi has some market respectability so I'm sure that one will work for you. If you do get it, let us know how it works for you.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Oh man, took me a while to go through all the posts since this is an active discussion but here are my two (more like two hundred) cents!

I started out with one of the disposable DoAqua pressurized CO2 kits when I got into the planted tank hobby back in 2010(?) and pretty much went through the problems at the onset. I ended up upgrading to larger (and obvi more expensive) CO2 systems since I got the planted tank fever and started expanding my PT collection... I gotta say though, using pressurized CO2 makes a world of a difference for the plants that I like to grow (pretty much the basic stuff that you see in standard ADA tanks and off the Tropica catalog).

1) For determining CO2 ppm, I would strongly recommend against using that color chart. Take a look at Dennis Wong's section on CO2 which I think does an excellent job in explaining the pitfalls of that chart and why you should use other approaches to optimizing your CO2 (and how to do it better/properly). https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/choosing-co2-why.html

I think everyone can benefit from reading this, especially since it briefly (but clearly) explains the limitations of that pH to kH chart for approximating [CO2] and gives you a more practical method of optimizing your CO2 injection. Nowadays, if you run a buffered substrate or even use wood for your hardscape, the chart is going to be inaccurate because that chart (as someone previously mentioned) does not account for organics and other buffering solutes in the water column. FME spider wood, driftwood, even manzanita wood leeches out compounds for the entire duration of their existence. 

Personally, I went away from using that chart and just go for an eyeball ~1 pH drop in my tanks with CO2 and calibrate based on how my plants and fauna do (just like what's recommended on Dennis' website). Since I overstock some of my tanks now, sometimes I have to go far less than that just to keep my fish happy.

2) You can definitely get cheaper CO2 set ups at ~$100 price range if you go for a paintball CO2 setup and wait patiently for a sale. If you don't want to wait or want high quality stuff then it'll probably cost you closer to $150 for a paintball setup.
- NEW 20oz canister can be $30 or less if wait patiently for a sale (Dicks', Walmart, any store that sells paintballing gear)
- Paintball to draft regulator adapter ~$10
- Decent quality regulator w/ solenoid can be $70 or less depending on brand (higher quality regulator + solenoid will be ~$100+)
- Bubble counter usually included with regulator + solenoid setups
- Ceramic glass diffuser and pressurized CO2 tubing variable based on your needs

3) I will say though, if you buy the paintball gear, it's a nice intermediate setup to going to full blown canisters once you have multiple tanks running. 
- I inject 6 tanks (ADA 30C x2, ADA 60P, ADA 90P, ADA 120P, and a generic 18" cube) off a single 20# CO2 canister w/ a 6-way splitter w/ bubble counters and a Milwaukee MA957(?) regulator + solenoid.
- The new canister cost me $120 IIRC + ~$20 for regular hydrostatic checks (forget the interval but its on the order of years).
- It's a nice intermediate step because you can use the same gear you used for the paintball setup with a regular canister (minus the paintball canister and the adapter)

4) There is a specific way you are supposed to set up your ceramic diffuser with respect to your flow. The diffuser should be directly in the path and below the flow from the outflow so that the water pushes down on the diffuser disk (to keep the CO2 bubbles in column longer).
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/uploads/1/0/4/4/104405095/dennis90pco2flow_orig.jpg

5) If you eventually want to go full high-tech, mult-planted tank like me, then I would also recommend purchasing the following ancillary products:
- Surface skimmer: I use a Jardli glass inflow + surface skimmer combo in each of my larger tanks and it works wonders
- Smartplug (or smart strip) to manage your lights and regulator
- Upgrade CO2 diffusion mechanism if using a larger tank 30gal+, maybe even at a 20gal: 
- (Optional) Airstone/airbar + air pump to at least run at night w/ your smart plug (plants use O2 at night, can decrease O2 levels for fish at night)



Some additional responses to things I read based on my personal experience, by category:



Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I hear that most often that people turn off CO2 and sometimes run an airstone at night. You could always run an airstone, but you'd be wasting CO2.


- I think there's actually equipoise now when it comes to running an airstone during the day with CO2. I traditionally thought it would off-gas the CO2, but I'm starting to fall into the camp that it's more beneficial since it allows for more oxygen exchange through increased water surface area (from the surface agitation)
- Higher oxygenation means you can push more CO2 into water column (yes you're using more CO2, but at least it's being better utilized by your plants)




livebearerlove said:


> Ok, UPDATE:
> I need to turn the top about 1/2 a mm.... it is nearly impossible... if I go just slightly too far is blows up. then im reaching into the tank and trying to pull this thing out and the fish (and fry) get terrified. I want to upgrade to something else, this tiny metal button is a mess. Ill update in a few more days... but this is not sustainable unless I can leave it on 24/7


For nano tanks or tanks that need much finer tuning of CO2, I like using the ADA speed controllers. I find them highly reliable (assuming you don't damage/muck them up with bubble counter fluid).




livebearerlove said:


> Now I understand where you were coming from. However; Doesnt it need to be at the bottom of the tank? then im washing my hands like crazy to remove medication from my hands, reaching into the bottom of the tank, bothering the fish or also adding a bubbler at night? correct me if im wrong.


The diffuser doesn't HAVE to be at the bottom of the tank, but needs to be in direct positioning of the downward current of the outflow (per point #4 above). The recommendation is to push it lower if your flow is inadequate and bubbles are still reaching the water surface. If you're losing too many bubbles to the water surface with the diffuser all the way at the bottom, you need to redirect your flow (either increase flow or position it closer i.e. in the back corner w/ outflow directed forwards in tank)




Bunsen Honeydew said:


> To be honest, if you plan on running CO2 long term, you could solve these problems with a modest investment in a better quality system. It's a one time investment, and is more economical long term.


I concur w/ @Bunsen Honeydew, but the disposable CO2 canister is a great beginner setup to get you a taste/feel of CO2 without breaking the bank. It's unfortunate you ran out of CO2 so quickly though (I suspect you had a leak probably where the regulator attaches to the canister). Paintball set up is the next step up per my point #2/#3 above, and then finally the multi tank setup that I have =P.




Asteroid said:


> Yep, good point. I was purchasing refills that are normally used for air guns which I got on the cheap compared to the ones that came with my Macro Aqua one. Didn't even think about bicycle tire refills.


Some food for thought: I believer there are different grades of pressurized CO2 out there. Industrial vs. food/beverage grade. Industrial grade has a higher limit of contaminants (I think organics?) and are meant for welding (and obvi other industrial) applications. Food/beverage grade is used to carbonate drinks and for kegs. I pretty much only use beverage grade CO2 now since my closest CO2 supplier is a dry-ice supplier. I have used industrial grade CO2 before (when I was living in NorCal and my closest CO2 supplier was as welding supplies manufacturer) and I can't say it had a negative impact on my tanks, but I have to admit I wasn't as attentive to my water quality back then as I am now.



livebearerlove said:


> ​ I have a medical condition. The chemicals on my hands (which allow me to move my fingers) are extremely toxic to fish. So I would be scrubbing down like a surgeon twice a day. I put the difuser towards the top, ill see how it works to put it in, and then take it out.


You can get large aquarium gloves that go up to your elbows on Amazon for <$10. They're basically oversized dishwashing gloves, so they're not optimal for finer applications but should do the trick if all you need to do is move stuff around inside your tank. I doubt all the scrubbing of your hands is good for your skin integrity (and will possibly exacerbate your medical condition if it's directly skin related, e.g. psoriasis, scleroderma, etc.)



Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I have had a chance to look at the methodology a bit this morning. Sorry for the delay, I have been sequestered to the lab for a few days (I love when that happens). I don't understand why Barr would use such a simplistic methodology, especially since he was putting the outputs into a chart and there are several well established methodologies in the literature already. All he needed to do was cut and paste different formulas into his excel file.
> 
> There are a few things from your explanation that I either do not agree with or understand. The first is why you are putting so much weight on missing initial pH and GH. Since the amount of CO2 is a function of kH and pH, if you input the initial pH and kH you can find your initial CO2 concentrations, but you only need that if you are looking for how much needs to be injected. I don't find that terribly useful, what is more important is what parameters (pH) need to be met to take your CO2 concentrations to your desired levels.
> 
> Could you expand on the logic of why the GH is important? Since you KH measurement already captured your dissolve carbonate and bicarbonate, wouldn't any contribution be relatively negligible? Certainly temperature would be a larger factor, but that hasn't seemed to raise any concern.


This chart definitely assumes you have no other significant buffering solutes in the water column. This is explicitly stated (and seems to be often overlooked) by the people who reference the post. Maybe Tom can directly weigh in since he was mentioned, but I wouldn't be suprrised if he doesn't reply since he probably gets asked the very same question several hundred times a year and has probably answered it hundreds of times already in other posts/threads.

Not so say that the table is _completely_ useless though, since you can use it to determine how much CO2 is already in your tap water and is also useful for planted tanks without buffering compounds (e.g. inert substrate and hardscape materials).




Bunsen Honeydew said:


> Another solution that would not involve removing the diffuser, putting your hands in the tank or messing with your control valve would be to put a T on the CO2 line with a valve. When the valve is open, the CO2 would bled into the room because of the pressure on the diffuser from the water. Close the bleed valve and it would operate as normal.


This still requires a lot of manual labor and attention. I honestly think a solenoid is a much better option (though it costs more and I can't really recommend any solenoids for a nano CO2 set up like the one OP has). BUT if he/she upgrades to a paintball setup, there many options become available...


**


Asteroid said:


> If you want to keep bashing Tom Barr just start a new thread and be upfront about it. We should definitely follow your advise over Tom Barr's based on your extensive experience and results.


I don't think anyone is bashing Tom. He explicitly states in his article: "Warning, KH may not be entirely carbonate hardness. This means you will think and believe you have MORE than you actually do, thus you may be underdosing CO2". (Source: https://barrreport.com/threads/co2-ph-kh-table.10717/)

**If I'm correct, this line explicitly relates to the effect that buffering substrates have on the direct usability of this chart.




cl3537 said:


> +1 I agree.
> These small systems are designed to be low pressure, slow rates, and to be left on. Many people run nano tanks probably the majority who actually use CO2 run it 24/7.
> Rarely would someone pay $300 for co2 tank, quality regulator, quality solenoid, diffusor, for a small little 5G or 10G.
> You could use a splitter with two airline tubing control valves https://www.amazon.com/Pawfly-Aquar...bing+splitter&qid=1558051336&s=gateway&sr=8-5 but that is silly to me why bother going through all the trouble, just adjust the bubble rate to low and keep it on 24/7, measure the pH drop at night with lights off after many hours to get the max drop and adjust to less if necessary.
> ...


- I feel pretty strongly against the use of those regular airline tubing control valves for a pressurized CO2 system. I doubt you can get the fine tuning or the consistency you would need to safely maintain nano-tank CO2 levels.

- I would prefer to use a solenoid for a nano tank... Gives me peace of mind more than anything, since all of my catastrophic CO2 events have only occured in my tanks 20gal and less. Hooking up the solenoid to a smart plug also lets me set discrete time intervals to run CO2. I've recently been playing around with implementing breaks in my CO2 injection since I like to run my lights 10+ hrs a day.



Bunsen Honeydew said:


> I don't think anyone is suggesting a $300 system, but one could get set up with a smaller system for under $100. I was eyeballing a setup (paintball) on FB marketplace this morning that was less than 70.


Per my point #2 above, it is definitely possible to get a cheaper (new) paintball setup if you're willing to wait and look for deals. 



cl3537 said:


> https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/CO2LevelFresh.php
> 
> A freshwater CO2 calculator, hidden on someones *reef *page, not exactly easy to find and for good reason.
> Millero 2002 https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/bibliography/related_files/millero0201.pdf
> ...


For others that read this comment, see my direct response marked by the ** a few paragraphs up.




cl3537 said:


> I asked for links to all the parts preferably NEW, which you didn't provide.
> 
> I am in Canada and the cheapest NEW 5lb CO2 tank(w/shipping) was $80.
> So if you are going to link to rock bottom used prices from your neighbourhood that is hardly fair.
> ...


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## Bunsen Honeydew (Feb 21, 2017)

While I agree with Ed that a solenoid is the best option, I don't think that a bleed valve setup would be very labor intensive after setup. Certainly much less than either adjusting a touchy valve or inserting and removing a diffuser.



Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## evil8 (Aug 7, 2018)

ced281 said:


> -I'm a huge fan of the Jardli glassware, but am skeptical about their CO2 equipment especially when you have more reputable brands like Milwaukee and Aquatek out there.


I admit I haven't heard much about their C02 equipment. I hear all kinds of good things about Milwaukee and the prices look nice too. I'll keep this in mind for the next tank.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ced281 said:


> For determining CO2 ppm, I would strongly recommend against using that color chart. Take a look at Dennis Wong's section on CO2 which I think does an excellent job in explaining the pitfalls of that chart and why you should use other approaches to optimizing your CO2 (and how to do it better/properly). https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/choosing-co2-why.html
> 
> I think everyone can benefit from reading this, especially since it briefly (but clearly) explains the limitations of that pH to kH chart for approximating [CO2] and gives you a more practical method of optimizing your CO2 injection. Nowadays, if you run a buffered substrate or even use wood for your hardscape, the chart is going to be inaccurate because that chart (as someone previously mentioned) does not account for organics and other buffering solutes in the water column. FME spider wood, driftwood, even manzanita wood leeches out compounds for the entire duration of their existence.


+1 Agreed of course as you are basically summarizing my posts and using the same link.



> 5) If you eventually want to go full high-tech, mult-planted tank like me, then I would also recommend purchasing the following ancillary products:
> - Surface skimmer: I use a Jardli glass inflow + surface skimmer combo in each of my larger tanks and it works wonders
> - Smartplug (or smart strip) to manage your lights and regulator
> - Upgrade CO2 diffusion mechanism if using a larger tank 30gal+, maybe even at a 20gal:
> - (Optional) Airstone/airbar + air pump to at least run at night w/ your smart plug (plants use O2 at night, can decrease O2 levels for fish at night)


+1 on a surface skimmer, removes scum/oil, leaves particles and aids greatly in O2 exchange. However in a 10g I have never seen a glass one that would fit they are all too tall. There are acrylic ones you can use though. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Acr...27-43cd-95d5-8e03829df5cb&transAbTest=ae803_4



> This chart definitely assumes you have no other significant buffering solutes in the water column. This is explicitly stated (and seems to be often overlooked) by the people who reference the post. Maybe Tom can directly weigh in since he was mentioned, but I wouldn't be suprrised if he doesn't reply since he probably gets asked the very same question several hundred times a year and has probably answered it hundreds of times already in other posts/threads.


+1



> Not so say that the table is _completely_ useless though, since you can use it to determine how much CO2 is already in your tap water and is also useful for planted tanks without buffering compounds (e.g. inert substrate and hardscape materials).


You just proved how misleading the chart is and you have clearly read the caveats and were still misled.
You cannot determine the CO2 in your tap water by reading any values off the chart. I can have any kh and any pH and still have the same CO2 in my degassed water which would be 0 - 3 ppm. That chart tells you nothing about degassed water values. Its not just buffering compounds its anytime your pH is not what is theoretically expected from Carbonate equilibria.



> - Not really true FME, my driftwood has been leeching tannins for years. I've had the same problem, but to a lesser extent with spiderwood and manzanita wood. Spiderwood gives my water a yellower/muskier color. Manzanita a brownish/redder color. Driftwood is the worst, since it just looks like peat.


I am currently dealing with a (From 8 to 6.5) 1.5 point pH drop from spiderwood without CO2 injection, my CO2 is off while I establish bacteria. No color or cloudiness as I use Purigen but I am not not sure if I should do something about that or not (add crushed coral(?) I hate adding anything but that is a huge drop and I'm not sure when it will dissipate. With CO2 injection I will be down to 6.1 or 6.2 which will not be great for some of my fauna. I have to check kH(may not be accurate) and decide if something should be done about it.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

ced281 said:


> All but 1 of my gassing incidents have happened in my nano and smaller tanks 20gal or less. CO2 can still be a problem in smaller tanks (and I would argue a much riskier and significant problem based on my experience). Something as simple as the ambient room temperature going up because of heat waves has been enough to tip my smaller tanks over the edge (at higher temperatures you get increased O2 demand by fish 2/2 increased metabolism, decreased O2 water solubility, ?increased pressure/rate coming out of CO2 tank if regulator is not properly maintained, etc.)


The proper way to run CO2 24/7 is at a low bubble rate and moderate reg pressure.
Under those conditions reg failure to increasing the rate and needle drift increase or the mythical EOTD is much less likely to happen.
The system is not pushed to get max CO2 in the water so changes in temperature(even 10 degrees) have negligible impact, and the system maintains safe moderate CO2 concentration at night as well. In this 10g moderate CO2 levels would be enough.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

cl3537 said:


> The proper way to run CO2 24/7 is at a low bubble rate and moderate reg pressure.
> Under those conditions reg failure to increasing the rate and needle drift increase or the mythical EOTD is much less likely to happen.
> The system is not pushed to get max CO2 in the water so changes in temperature(even 10 degrees) have negligible impact, and the system maintains safe moderate CO2 concentration at night as well. In this 10g moderate CO2 levels would be enough.


The thing your not getting is especially with the system the OP has is NV creep. if you set a low bubble rate it might not stay there and in a small tank it will kill very quickly. Even the cheaper regs are more likely to have NV creep. So to run 24/7 is always more dangerous especially in a small tank.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

ced281 said:


> Some food for thought: I believer there are different grades of pressurized CO2 out there. Industrial vs. food/beverage grade. Industrial grade has a higher limit of contaminants (I think organics?) and are meant for welding (and obvi other industrial) applications. Food/beverage grade is used to carbonate drinks and for kegs. I pretty much only use beverage grade CO2 now since my closest CO2 supplier is a dry-ice supplier. I have used industrial grade CO2 before (when I was living in NorCal and my closest CO2 supplier was as welding supplies manufacturer) and I can't say it had a negative impact on my tanks, but I have to admit I wasn't as attentive to my water quality back then as I am now.


Now we’re really just looking for things. There is no discernable difference between grads and how it affects our aquariums. In additions to air gun supply co2 I’ve used co2 supply from fire extinguisher supply stores for over 10 years without any issue long term in home aquaria. 



ced281 said:


> I don't think anyone is bashing Tom….


If you read his other posts you’d know what I mean. Ever since his one and only tank crashed using an EI-type dosing regime he has been bashing Tom Barr, blaming EI for his issues. He didn’t understand that you can tailor EI dosing for your particular setup and its not just about dosing blindly. 



ced281 said:


> - I would recommend you go for a Milwaukee or Aquatek regulator w/ solenoid kit. The kits usually include a bubble counter as well. I have about 3 Milwaukees and 1 Aquatek, and my preference are the Milwaukees since I've had fewer issues with them.
> - I would recommend you get a regulator with a bubble counter that's attached to the regulator (like the Milwaukees and Aquateks I mentioned above). They have built-in check valves built for pressurized CO2 systems so you don't have to worry about bubble counter fluid going backwards into your expensive regulator


 I agree with you here, I have had good luck with Milwaukee and Azoo regulators. Both budget types. The Milwaukee was one of the first to come into usage once the pressurized co2 era started. But be careful the very word Milwaukee MA957 will get you responses from “it’s great to It’s a piece of junk”



ced281 said:


> … - Not really true FME, my driftwood has been leeching tannins for years. I've had the same problem, but to a lesser extent with spiderwood and manzanita wood. Spiderwood gives my water a yellower/muskier color. Manzanita a brownish/redder color. Driftwood is the worst, since it just looks like peat.


We are talking about spiderwood. I never found it to be that difficult to deal with after the initial period. My point being you can’t really worry about PH day 1, when you have nothing in the tank, worry about it 1 or 2 months down the road. Water changes will reduce this effect anyway.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Update AND my 2 cents.
Biology and chemistry are closely related- however they differentiate themselves during experimentation. In my opinion chemistry is more factual, while biology has endless variables. Fish tanks, are in fact a wonderful blend of these two sciences as well as being a form of art.

Balancing these different aspects causes each individual to have an opinion; noebn of them wrong or right as YMMV (your miliage may vary).

I will say; I am further into biology and art. The chemistry is starting to play a larger role now that I have upgraded systems... which is a blessing and a challenge. I appreciate all viewpoints as long as I have the literal (or theoretical) data to support my next action.

In this case, I did find the Tam Bar graph confusing as from a biological standpoint I found it hard to find a determination because of the amount of environmental factors.... tap gh/kh, temperature, lights, pH, plants, substrate, hardscape, wood, livestock species. I did find the 'advanced planted tank' website much more approachable from a high tech newbie perspective. 

I also happen to be a very OCD aquascaper as I have been doing this for many years, in many different countries. I find it interesting that many things in the hobby advanced and changed (I specifically remember adding oodles of salt to my tanks and finding a balance not to harm my plants ;P)

Notes: 
- The little 20.00 unit was nothing but a nightmare. If you care about livestock, by the time you customize it to a reasonable variable you might as well get a real system, IMO
- When my cheap system kicked the bucket- I did notice increased algae in just a couple days... I turned down my lights but I was surprised.
- The system I purchased will only serve a single tank- as unlike others, my tanks are all over the house- HA! as I am very much into the design aesthetic (art) side of things and want them to be integrated into my architecture of my home. With that in mind, I chose to stay with setup I posted previously as it was also through Prime.... so I was able to hook it up last night, and I have been watching it closely. 
- Currently with ease I was able to get .5 bubbles per second (in which I will increase slowly). It is on a timer that suits my needs well. Still dont know the *best* way to calculate what I need- I believe it will be a trial and error
- Positive note: all my fry are alive! 
- Filled up my CO2 tank at Dicks Sporting goods.... that was the only place I could find! (hardware store, brewery syupply and welding supply said no to the small tank that wasnt a 'trade in')

Its a bit of a 'rats nest' below my desk (I swear ill clean it up later).
More importantly: I feel more confident about my setup from the help on this forum.... As we all know this is an obsession (not just a hobby) so I see more tanks (still, lol) in my future in which all of this knowledge will come in handy!

Edit: Here is a video... GSA on my rock


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Asteroid said:


> I am currently dealing with a (From 8 to 6.5) 1.5 point pH drop from spiderwood without CO2 injection, my CO2 is off while I establish bacteria. No color or cloudiness as I use Purigen but I am not not sure if I should do something about that or not (add crushed coral(?) I hate adding anything but that is a huge drop and I'm not sure when it will dissipate. With CO2 injection I will be down to 6.1 or 6.2 which will not be great for some of my fauna. I have to check kH(may not be accurate) and decide if something should be done about it.


That is exactly what happened with this tank- I was at a 7.4 out of tap, added my stone to get to 8ish, then added wood to settle on 7.4-7.6... I got concerned with my fish. So I opted to do medium light, low CO2 and still experimenting as now my pH is around 6.8 (depending on the time of day). I guess I needed to make a decision of who I love the most- my plants or my fish.... I chose to love them equally as after all we are playing god.


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

Beautiful plants, algae is hardly noticeable. 
You may consider moving the diffuser to the opposite side of the tank for better distribution.

https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/co2-tuning.html


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

cl3537 said:


> Beautiful plants, algae is hardly noticeable.
> You may consider moving the diffuser to the opposite side of the tank for better distribution.
> 
> https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/co2-tuning.html


Thank you. Im anti algae- drives me crazy. A little brown stuff here or there... ok. Tiny bit of fuzz on an anubia, fine. But GSA? My OCD goes into overdrive!
Is there a limit for the amount of tubing that can be used with such low pressure? I only have one hole in the desk on the right side.

Update: so getting the CO2 to the actual difuser takes about 1 hour... there is a bit of water in the line? I can see it move through.... snails pace (well, my snails are faster than this).
So this means I need to start CO2, 2-3 hours before the lights come on at 6am (slow increase). If I increase the amount of line, will that mean it needs to be 3-4 hours prior to lights coming on?


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## cl3537 (Jan 28, 2019)

livebearerlove said:


> Update: so getting the CO2 to the actual difuser takes about 1 hour...


That doesn't seem normal, what is the output pressure of your Jardli regulator(it has an adjustable working pressured from 0 - 70 psi)? this may have to be increased.
WHat is your degassed pH and your pH before lights on?

Given that you have a canister filter you might consider getting an inline diffusor(yes your regulator can provide enough pressure).

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/329...dc-476e-81dd-a2fe3b757a15&transAbTest=ae803_4

Edit:

You also should consider a bubble counter with check valve to adjust flow easier and prevent water getting into your regulator.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/328...f9-4191-aa4a-9e900aed9610&transAbTest=ae803_4


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

livebearerlove said:


> .. there is a bit of water in the line? I can see it move through.... snails pace (well, my snails are faster than this).
> So this means I need to start CO2, 2-3 hours before the lights come on at 6am (slow increase). If I increase the amount of line, will that mean it needs to be 3-4 hours prior to lights coming on?


Are you using a check valve to prevent the water from backing up too far? 

Also the inline atomizers (like the one linked by cl3537 usually require an even higher working pressure than the basic glass in-tank ceramic ones.


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

cl3537 said:


> That doesn't seem normal, what is the output pressure of your Jardli regulator(it has an adjustable working pressured from 0 - 70 psi)? this may have to be increased.
> WHat is your degassed pH and your pH before lights on?
> You also should consider a bubble counter with check valve to adjust flow easier and prevent water getting into your regulator.
> /QUOTE]
> ...


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## livebearerlove (Aug 20, 2013)

Everything is finally hooked up. My dog sick, then I got ill... long couple of weeks but im back to working on the tank.
Im having lots of issues keeping the CO2 'ON' it seems to stop working constantly. Part of it is because of the timer its on (it randomly shuts off all the time). I think the other part is because it is on the lowest setting. But here is the tank a few months later...
I have not been diligent with ferts and I have sonme plants showing distress. My rocks are officially green- but the glass is clear. Very strange.

Here we are on May 31st. I figured I would do an update...

Water sprite... im trimming this all the time- I fee like it grows 2 cm a day!
Hygrophila pinnatifida- fern like... I like the contrast
Mini Bolbitis (Baby Leaf)
Clinopodium brownei
Ludwigia.... mystery plant???? anyone have any ideas? Rubin? Palust?n or Purslane?


Midground:
Bucephalandra- Mini Coin
Nana petite anubias
Nana white anubias
Lobelia Cardinalis Dwarf Purple- not purple anymore
AR mini- growing great- some holes in the leaves? I was definately not good about fertilizing in a timely manner.
Mystery Moss...... I cant identify ??... Its growing! those are the little 'bushes' on the left hand side, they only grow well with CO2.

Foreground
Peacock moss
Pogostemon Helferi Downoi... I cant keep this planted..... PLEASE HELP! it keeps floating up
Mini dwarf hairgrass
Mini christmas moss (in between my stones)

My outtake is disgusting!! I cant imagine what the inside of the filter looks like. Any suggestions other than ripping it apart?


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