# Average shrimp death rate



## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

AlexPerez said:


> I was wondering what would be the average number of Red Cherry shrimp die off that would be considered normal. For example in a weeks time I see anywhere from 2-3 dead shrimps out of about 200 or so shrimps. Some weeks I might see 4 or 5 and other weeks I might see 1-2. Would 2-3 be considered normal, low or high?
> 
> What do the folks that keep Cherries see on an average, if any?
> 
> ...



I have around a 100 and have seen only one death in six months.


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## vinnymac (Feb 28, 2005)

I've sold over 1,000 cherries in the last 6 months with up to 400-500 in my tanks at any given time and I cannot remember the last time I saw a dead one. 

It's very possible the dead are being eaten before I see them. I do recall seeing a dead one once a week when I had my temps too high.


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

Not good, 
either I’m looking way too hard, or you guys aren’t looking good enough.:wink:

Another thing I've noticed, somtimes the other shrimp will eat the dead ones, and sometimes they won't even touch it.


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## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

AlexPerez said:


> Not good,
> either I’m looking way too hard, or you guys aren’t looking good enough.:wink:
> 
> Another thing I've noticed, somtimes the other shrimp will eat the dead ones, and sometimes they won't even touch it.



The only dead one I found was half eaten. If more have died, they have been eaten really fast. I look at that tank every single day...what is the temp in your tank, ph, etc?


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

In the tank that I see the most problems the ph is 6.1 in the morning and at light out is down to 5.8. I know this seems like a lot, but The ph of the tank water after sitting for >48 hrs is 6.8. Tap water is around 7.3. The ADA substrate lowers the ph. It used lower the ph alot more but as more time goes by the lowering effect has gotten less.
KH around 3-4
GH around 13
Ferts are
NO3 .75 3X a week
PO4 .25 3X a week
K .5 3X a week
MG .5 2-3X a week
CSM+B+Fe 2X 15 ml and 1X 20 ml weekly.
Water change 20-25% 2X weekly (Use prime to dechlor - 2 caps full)
Baking soda 1 tea spoon after every water change.
Last time I tested NO3 = 15ppm and PO4 around 3 ppm (Lamotte Kits) 
Tank temp is around 76.5 degrees and is stable.
The water from the tap comes out at about 70 degrees.
Only fish are 3 little pygmy Corries, that are smaller than most cherries. I've seen them eat side by side with baby cherries and they don't seem to pay any attention to them.


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## T_om (Sep 2, 2004)

With all the stuff going into that water, I have no idea what could be killing your shrimp.

I will say it once again... people having trouble with shrimp, especially cherry shrimp, should just go back to plain de-chlorinated tap water. The problems usually disappear... until they start pouring the exotic stuff back into the tank again, and the problems come back.

I sell these things by the thousands and I can assure you, they do very well with plain old tap water. Everything else you put in the water just adds another variable to the puzzle and is unnecessary to the well-being of the shrimp.

Tom


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

All I'm adding is fertilzers for the plants, little bit of bicarb to keep the KH from going to low and causing more problems. 

But you are probably right about adding to much stuff. In my lower light tanks that only get a little bit of CO2 and Ferts I haven't seen any deaths. 
But the population is of shrimp is low compared to the bigger tanks.


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

CSM + B contains copper, it may be killing your shrimp. I am not sure if it is enough copper to do any harm, but it is more than flourish contains.


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## The.Omega.Glory (Aug 28, 2005)

*Cu: Nature's Widow Maker*

I second Urkevitz; I'll put all my money on too much copper and I had the personal experience to back that up. I had regular shrimp deaths -- 1 every couple of weeks -- usually within a day or so of dosing with Flourish. Flourish contains copper. My theory is that death resulted not from incorrect dosing but rather a toxic build up over time via regular dosing. I reason that the types of plants I have cannot collectively absorb copper as fast as other traces hence the Cu levels built up over time. By adding just a fraction of the recommended dosage instead, I haven't had a shrimp death since. For me that is conclusive enough.

I have both cherry and ghost shrimp -- for me the tell tale sign was ghost shrimp becoming increasingly opaque week after week almost to near white and increasingly sluggish. With the minimalist dosing they stay nice and translucent and sprightly.


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## toofazt (Jun 18, 2005)

The.Omega.Glory said:


> I second Urkevitz; I'll put all my money on too much copper and I had the personal experience to back that up. I had regular shrimp deaths -- 1 every couple of weeks -- usually within a day or so of dosing with Flourish. Flourish contains copper. My theory is that death resulted not from incorrect dosing but rather a toxic build up over time via regular dosing.


I over-dose my 20G with Flourish. I have 6 Amano and 3 Ghost shrimp and have never had a death since they were in there ~8 months ago...


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## unirdna (Jan 22, 2004)

I killed off an entire tank of amanos by [unknowingly] overdosing Flourish. I've never used CSM+B+Fe. That would be my suspect as well.


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## jimmydrsv (Apr 8, 2005)

It probably is the Plantex CSM+B stuff. I never used it but many sfbaaps members have commented it as the cause for deaths in shrimps. It supposedly has a higher concentration of heavy metals in it. Supposedly this level is much higher than either flourish or tmg.


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## krazykidd86 (Jul 27, 2005)

I dosed flourish iron once, and ended up with alot dead  
Anyone else have problems when dosing Flourish Iron?


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## lifetapestry (Jan 12, 2006)

Greg Watson has an article on his site that suggests that fertilizers are fine for shrimp tanks, because the metals in them are not free, but cheleated. Just one guy's opinion, but worth reading:

http://www.gregwatson.com/CherryShrimpInAPlantedAquarium.htm

Karla


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

I'll reduce the amount of micros to 10 ml 3X a week and see if that helps, If not then I'll try a different brand.
But which one has less copper/metals Florish or Tmg? 

Thanks
Alex


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## T_om (Sep 2, 2004)

lifetapestry said:


> Greg Watson has an article on his site that suggests that fertilizers are fine for shrimp tanks, because the metals in them are not free, but cheleated. Just one guy's opinion, but worth reading:
> 
> http://www.gregwatson.com/CherryShrimpInAPlantedAquarium.htm
> 
> Karla



The problem is, when you dose tanks with chemicals, there are MANY reasons one tank will react differently than another.

Not all base water conditions are the same. Seldom does one person start with the exact same water parameters as another person. Even different tanks under the care of the same person will vary. Not all combinations of all fertilizer additives react the same. 

Too many variables.

How many messages have you read that say "The shrimp were doing fine until I poured _________ (fill in the blank) in the tank and then they started dying off"?

Plants react slowly when aquarists get their water conditions fouled up. You seldom see a plant die overnight when you pour in the latest magic elixir to 'help' them grow... even if you put in something that harms them instead of helping them.

Shrimp, and most other animals, aren't that durable.

Tom


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## AlexPerez (Jan 25, 2004)

That's a good point Tom. Cause I see a very big difference in the amount of shrimp deaths (almost none) in my lower light tank that only gets small amount of ferts. 
I would like to keep the shrimp and the plants so I guess I'll try to minimize the affects of the fertilizers by reducing the amount I add and reduce the ligthing so the plants have even less need for ferts. Try to find a happy medium where both plants and shrimp can flourish.

This morning I was in a hurry to get to work and added 20ML of CSM (forgot to add less) and when I got home today I saw 3 dead shrimp. So maybe its not only the CSM build up but also the amount added that could be causing the die off.

Thanks everyone for their comments. Hopefully I can get it under control and not kill so many of the little guys. I do feel bad for them.


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## BSaint (Jun 8, 2005)

I no longer dose anything in my shrimp tanks everytime I do I find a few dead. Created a no tech tank for them just plants a filter and decent lighitng and everything is doing well. Just what I have experienced but as said before every tank is different.


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## dschmeh (Feb 5, 2006)

*dead ones*

are you sure they are dead and not empty molted skins?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

AlexPerez said:


> Not good,
> either I’m looking way too hard, or you guys aren’t looking good enough.:wink:
> 
> Another thing I've noticed, somtimes the other shrimp will eat the dead ones, and sometimes they won't even touch it.


As long as they are fed well, you should not lose any.
I have more than I started with, I had maybe 30-40, now I have well over 200-300.

I have no heaters etc and the temp varies.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Resurrecting this 14 year old thread...

Re-asking the question, only I'm more curious about baby survival rate for those of you breeding them. In my breeding tanks, I'd say my Bloody Mary's currently have the highest baby survival rate, and if the survival rate to adulthood was 30%, I'd be surprised. I know there's some conjecture, variables like - how many eggs are being carried by each female, how many females are berried, etc., hard to come up with a firm percentage. I'm simply wondering if I'm in the ballpark, or if I could be doing better. I know I shouldn't expect 100%, but should I expect more like 50%? @somewhatshocked @Blue Ridge Reef @Zoidburg 
I don't know who else to tag, if you guys know others who are actively breeding, go ahead and tag please.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

This is a less than great thread to resurrect, to be honest. While everyone meant well, we now know most of this is inaccurate. Particularly the part about copper in fertilizer. Just 3-4 years after this thread, the shrimp world was light years ahead. 5-6 years later, it was an entirely different world. Probably best to start a new thread.

I'm guessing survival rates for most every shrimp I keep are close to 100%. Good parameters, stability, not putting hands in tanks, regular water changes, low temperatures.

If you're losing a lot of shrimp, you should work to determine the cause. If they're healthy and you aren't constantly mucking about? They should thrive.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Obviously I'm not counting babies, but I also feel like the vast majority that hatch grow up to be breeding shrimp themselves. In the michling tank, I sometimes take photos of odd babies and I almost always recognize them from the photos a few months later when they are becoming adults. The biggest hurdle I'm dealing with right now (besides in high tech tanks, which is another thread) is orange eyed blue tigers. They are big and active and berry and yet I've never spotted a single baby. But I feel sure if they would only hatch I'd have myself a colony of OEBTs by year's end because I expect them to live and grow.

If you are getting a low percentage growing up, I'd double and triple check the filter intake sponge or strainer if you are running anything with a motor. That first week or so they are tiny things. Of course any fish without a sucker mouth could be responsible. But outside of being even more prone to get sucked into filter intakes and fish mouths -babies are considered to be sturdier than adults and in most cases that's been my experience. I did have one tank come down with muscular necrosis that I was doing 60% daily water changes on for a couple of weeks. That's the only time I can recall having adults all make it but babies wipe out. But this could have been the disease and they were just too small to tell that they had it? Which brings up another subject -water changes can get quite tricky when you have lots of new babies and I wouldn't want to know how many have gone down my drain. I've tried to design a mesh net and bucket system to catch any but I never worked the many kinks out. I just avoid vacuuming the gravel as well as I'd like when I see a new batch. I still have to race to the sink to reverse the flow on the Python when I see one taking the ride once in a while. But if it was a day old speck and mixed with any dirt at all in the gravel, I'd probably never know.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Obviously I'm not counting babies, but I also feel like the vast majority that hatch grow up to be breeding shrimp themselves. In the michling tank, I sometimes take photos of odd babies and I almost always recognize them from the photos a few months later when they are becoming adults. The biggest hurdle I'm dealing with right now (besides in high tech tanks, which is another thread) is orange eyed blue tigers. They are big and active and berry and yet I've never spotted a single baby. But I feel sure if they would only hatch I'd have myself a colony of OEBTs by year's end because I expect them to live and grow.
> 
> If you are getting a low percentage growing up, I'd double and triple check the filter intake sponge or strainer if you are running anything with a motor. That first week or so they are tiny things. Of course any fish without a sucker mouth could be responsible. But outside of being even more prone to get sucked into filter intakes and fish mouths -babies are considered to be sturdier than adults and in most cases that's been my experience. I did have one tank come down with muscular necrosis that I was doing 60% daily water changes on for a couple of weeks. That's the only time I can recall having adults all make it but babies wipe out. But this could have been the disease and they were just too small to tell that they had it? Which brings up another subject -water changes can get quite tricky when you have lots of new babies and I wouldn't want to know how many have gone down my drain. I've tried to design a mesh net and bucket system to catch any but I never worked the many kinks out. I just avoid vacuuming the gravel as well as I'd like when I see a new batch. I still have to race to the sink to reverse the flow on the Python when I see one taking the ride once in a while. But if it was a day old speck and mixed with any dirt at all in the gravel, I'd probably never know.


 @somewhatshocked Yes, I'm sorry. This was what popped up for me when searching the topic, realized some of the info was very questionable. Perhaps it's good to be resurrected and corrected! 

I'm running all my tanks with HMF filters and a big bag of purigen in the space between the sponge and glass. Dedicated shrimp tanks, only other inhabitants are snails for cleanup - MTS, pond and bladder, ramshorn and then the typical detritus worms and copepods. Running RODI remineralized with SS GH/KH+ to ~250 TDS. No heaters, so temps are in the upper 60's, very low 70's max. Hands are rarely in the tank, primarily use tools if I have to do anything. Feeding GlasGarten products - BacterAE, Shrimp Baby, Shrimp Dinner, and I'm also feeding Dennerle Shrimp King Mineral and a product called NugBombz. Also throw in blanched spinach from time to time. I feed something daily or every other day. Water changes weekly or every other, depending on TDS, averaging 30%. I don't typically gravel vac because I have the same fear of babies getting sucked up. I normally just put the hose a couple inches into the water so I can get a good visual angle with the light to ensure no itty bitties are near. I don't fertilize at all, plants consist of duck weed, java fern, a little bit of moss but primarily clado because it tends to infest the moss. Cholla wood, alder cones and almond leaves are in all the tanks. Substrate is PFS, starting up three more tanks that will have some recycled Eco Complete. 

I might start up a journal, get parameters posted and tank shots uploaded. Probably the better way to go for feedback.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Out of everything you've just mentioned @mgeorges , which may not be enough info, at least one thing I'd recommend is to stop feeding Bacter AE and see if that makes a difference. Some people have no problems feeding it, others struggle keeping shrimp alive. It can be hit or miss.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Starting a journal is absolutely a great idea. 

But one thing @Zoidburg hit on is of pretty urgent importance. Stop feeding Bacter AE. It unfortunately seems to be a common denominator with a lot of shrimp survival issues. So much so that a moment of panic hits every time I read that someone uses it.

About food: How much and how frequently are you feeding the tank, @mgeorges?


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