# Plants not growing at all, staurogyne turning yellow...



## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

I have been having problems with two of my tanks for almost a year now. I can't believe I haven't given up yet. I think the only reason I haven't is because I've had the pleasure of experiencing trouble-free tanks with gorgeous plants before. 

I had a thread on these awhile back but there weren't any conclusions and now I have new symptoms to share. 

I take such good care of my tanks. I do everything I'm supposed to and I am religious about dosing EI and doing the weekly water changes. Please help me. I am so so so sad. 

*Tank 1--50 gallons*
Lighting: 2x 54 watts T5HO
Photoperiod: 6 hours
CO2 injection: drop checker light green
EI dosing + extra phosphate (for GSA)
Nitrate level: 20 ppm 
50% weekly water changes

*Symptoms and pertinent positive/negatives with tank 1*

Some plants growing very well and super fast (ex. Limno, ferns, sunset hygro, Polygonum)
Some growing a little, and most *not at all* (Rotala mexicana, Ludwigia arcuata, Rotala 'gai lai')
Some plants have a thick layer of green growing on the leaves (thought it was GSA, but there's none on the glass, and I've been dosing extra phosphate)
*Green Dust algae* on the glass.
No particular deficiency symptoms other than stunting
*Tank 2 (12 gallons)*
Lighting: double T5NO fixture
Photoperiod: 6 hours
CO2: drop checker light green
EI dosing
Nitrate level: 40 ppm (I thought I had a nitrate deficiency, so I started dosing more. It's been 2 weeks and still no change in anything)
50% weekly water changes

*Symptoms for tank 2*

Rotala mexicana 'goias' stunted and *not growing AT ALL*.
Staurogyne 049 turning *yellow* and *not growing AT ALL*.
Trident fern, windelov fern, and java moss doing awesome.
*No algae*.
I will try to get pics tomorrow. Please help. I am so so so hopeless with these two tanks right now. I just want my plants to grow well again. I will send an awesome plant package to whoever can help me solve this problem. Seriously.


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## Aqua'd (Dec 20, 2009)

You might try checking the hardness, I had stauro turning yellow and dropping some leaves on me every now and then, then I softened my water a bit and the problem seems to have fixed itself.
Good luck!


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## mylittlefish (Oct 5, 2010)

How would You soften?


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## Aqua'd (Dec 20, 2009)

I used some peat in my nano tank's filter. You can also mix R/O water with your tap for water changes.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Hmm. KH=2.... I don't remember what my GH usually is but it's very low as well. Tonina fluviatilis is doing awesome.

I really appreciate the tip though. I need all the help I can get :icon_cry:


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## rw007 (Nov 26, 2008)

Interesting, I've got similar issues, conditions and many of the same plants. My limphno, ferns, hygro difformis and polygonum grow fine, but I've had issues with staurogyne 049 and ludwigias melting. I've got some bba and green dust on glass. Some crypts have green algae on them as well. 

Also running 2xt5ho, EI and pressuried co2. Tap kh and gh are low in my area. I've taken them up to 3 and 6 respectively.

What substrate are you using and how far above your tank are the lights hung?


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## ubr0ke (Jul 28, 2010)

up your co2 slowly...place your drop checkers close to the plants that are suffering...
Im willing to bet some hogs in your tank are limiting other less aggressive plants.

also use gh booster..


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

I will start doing this today. As hesitant as I am to give into the fact that CO2 may be limiting, that's the one major thing I can think of that may be the problem.

I will move my drop checker and turn up the CO2 a teenie bit every day. 

Anyone else? I know that those yellow leaves can't possibly just be a CO2 problem.


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

I'd say the 50g is getting torched by the light intensity. I'd put a layer of window screen between the lights and tank or raise the light by 6".

Could you give more dosing details on the second tank incluing macros and micros.

jim


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## ubr0ke (Jul 28, 2010)

add extra micro's....especially iron......what chelate of iron are you using?
you have a low kh so Fe Gluconate will work well..what trace mix are you using? csm+b is what i suggest...
Do you increase fert dosing as plant mass increases?...
do you use a gh booster?...if not add some....

also prune the faster growing stem plants often.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

I use csm + b for trace
Also seachem's liquid iron stuff--the recommeded dosing and i do that once/week.
I dose GH booster after water changes, though I have been a little forgetful with the GH booster.
I always dose the same amount of macros and micros, but then again...my plants aren't growing so no need to increase.
As for the lighting...I used to run 3x54 T5HO and the plants loved it. Those were the good times. Things eventually went bad (which was while I was on vacation for 3 weeks), and I recently started just using 2 bulbs. The fixture is about 4-6" off the water surface.

The tanks in question are "Valse" and "Tango" from my sig. If you're curious to see what the tank looked like during the really good times, feel free


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Well if ur dosing the same amount you have been, and they plants aren't growing *now* but they use to(meaning theyre bigger now and need more ferts then when u started) and your getting deficiencies(yellowing and no growth) you obviously need to up your dosing amount.


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## ubr0ke (Jul 28, 2010)

seachem iron is perfect but dose it more often...you could add daily it won't hurt.
Gh booster should be added regularly...With low gh you probably limtiing calcium and magnesium without adding it so start remembering...lol.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

*Update*

I refilled my drop checker with standard solution and indicator and moved it to the place farthest from my diffuser, and I turned up my CO2 a teenie tiny bit. 

Just checked the drop checker, and it was a nice solid green. According to the bromothymol blue tables, the color I have corresponds to a pH of 6.8. How many ppm CO2 is this?

Edit: apparently 19ppm...

Edit: on second glance, it's more like 6.7, which corresponds to 25ppm. Still not 30 though, so let's see if increasing CO2 solves some problems? I would still like some input on the yellowing though.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

*Update*

I turned up the CO2 a little this morning again and the drop checkers are now a light green that looks the same as what corresponds to a pH of 6.6 and 30 ppm CO2. My Bolivian rams seem to be "breathing" quite fast but they're not near the surface. Is this ok for them?

The plants that usually pearl did and the plants that never grow did not pearl. 

Still hoping for some insight on the Staurogyne yellowing. Actually...let me go take some pics.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

I'm hoping these pictures might bring more advice to this thread. Please...You have no idea how completely sad I am about this situation. I've done everything I can think of to fix the problem and I am try so so hard and I'm just so disouraged. :icon_cry:

*Tank 1--50 gallons*

Algae on the glass (green dust?)

















Some plants growing ok (but not great) behind the algae screen:

























*What this tank used to look like last year. I miss this so much.
*

















*Tank 2--12 gallons*

Yellow Staurogyne with major deficiency of something.

























Stunted and really ugly Rotala mexicana 'goias'









Trident fern growing awesome:









moss growing awesome









fissidens in good shape:









*What Staurogyne and Rotala mexicana used to look like in this tank. When I look at these pics now, they make me teary-eyed. I would do anything to make these tanks look like this again. I really am trying so hard. I wish I knew what to do. Because if I had the answer, and if that solution took day and night to achieve, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
*


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ubr0ke said:


> up your co2 slowly...place your drop checkers close to the plants that are suffering...
> Im willing to bet some hogs in your tank are limiting other less aggressive plants.
> 
> also use gh booster..


1+

As we obviously can rule out any KNO3, Trace, KH2PO4 dosing.
Might also do larger water changes till things settle down or 2x a week etc.

Slow and steady with the CO2, patiently.
Never fast and impatient.

Correct dose of CO2 is the cure.

The other species should recover just fine if so, some species are much more able to compete for CO2 than some other species, this in fact, is among the largest competitive factor between species(Co2 competition).

ubr0ke's advice is spot on.

the only thing to add would be increase the surface movement to make sure you also have higher O2 when adding more CO2.

You are a med person, think CO2/O2 ratio in blood.
Same thing with fish and their gills, with higher O2, they can withstand higher CO2 without expending more energy.

This has limits, but will provide more wiggle room with dosing CO2 without gassing or stressing fish.

Rule of thumb is enough current to just not quite break the surface, lots of ripples, not bubbles etc.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Ok, I will take this advice. I have two AC 70s on this tank for filtration. There is no splash because I keep the water level high. What can I add for extra current? I was planning on eventually getting a Eheim 2217, but I don't have enough funds for it at the moment. 

I will be patient, too. I can admit when others know more than I do, and this is definitely one of those instances.

I will update weekly. I promise. And if this works, I owe you both a free plant package :icon_wink


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Amazonfish said:


> Ok, I will take this advice. I have two AC 70s on this tank for filtration. There is no splash because I keep the water level high. What can I add for extra current? I was planning on eventually getting a Eheim 2217, but I don't have enough funds for it at the moment.
> 
> I will be patient, too. I can admit when others know more than I do, and this is definitely one of those instances.
> 
> I will update weekly. I promise. And if this works, I owe you both a free plant package :icon_wink


Get a Rena 3 etc.

Add a small Rio 180 etc up high in the tank etc.

You do not see the filter, no need to go the most $$ brands.
HOB can work, but they are not as nice as canisters


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

One thing that happens when you have a tank that is growing very well - the plant mass increases, sometimes to the point of almost filling the whole tank with stems and leaves. That bigger plant mass chokes off the water circulation in the tank, so CO2 rich water can't get to all of the plants. And, the more plant mass you have, the more demand there is for CO2, so the higher you need the bubble rate to be. This is why doing regular pruning, keeping open areas in the tank, is very necessary, at least with high light and CO2.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

^^^^agreed.
You probably need more CO2 circulation, probably not upping CO2 to the point of stressing fish. I add a little powerhead for extra circulation. I aggressively trim my tank every week, admittedly, to get rid of algae 
But the plants alway grow back.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, I will work on choosing something to increase water movement. I do have a small powerhead, so I can add that until I gather the funds for a new filter.

I trimmed today, but I've been having issues with melting plants--especially downoi, Staurogyne 'porto velho', and Hygrophila 'araguaia'. I don't know why...but I'm afraid to touch them. I don't dare try to trim these now.

*Update*

Rotala mexicana 'goias' pearled today in the 12 gallon. I don't think I've seen it pearl in a very long time. I don't want to get too excited too soon though. 

Today was a micro ferts day, so I dosed extra iron.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

*Update*

Today is water change day.

I'm keeping the drop checker light green. I can't tell yet if there has been a change in plant growth, though all the plants in the 12 gallon are pearling every day. no such change in the 50 gallon. I definitely know that the 50 gallon has more green dust algae on the glass though. 

One new-ish problem. Some of my plants are melting... Downoi, Hygrophila 'araguaia', and Staurogyne 'porto velho'. What causes this?

Also, it seems like the melting is "contagious". Almost like a domino effect. One plant started melting, then another, then another. It's only in the 50 gallon. Nothing in the 12 gallon has melted. This has been going on for weeks now, but it's particularly bad now.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Tank 1: Massive BGA outbreak- treat it with maracyn (the original, not maracyn 2) for 5-7 days and things will definitely turn around.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Amazonfish said:


> *Update*
> 
> Today is water change day.
> 
> ...


If you have started dosing gH booster, the sudden increase in gH is causing the melting issues. Downoi in particular is very sensitive to changes in gH. At the next water change, don't use the booster unless it appears that the plants have adjusted to the new parameters. 

For tank 1, start dosing maracyn (remove carbon from filter if you're using any) immediately. Don't worry about scraping the BGA off the glass until it starts to die back. I would also normally recommend cutting down your photo period, but due to all the current changes I think some things should be held constant.

Tank 2: Notice how all of your rhizome plants are doing well and everything else is doing poorly? Something is up with the substrate; perhaps it has developed anaerobic patches or simply needs some additional root fertilization.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Minus the algae, nice looking tank btw.

Maybe reduce the lights a bit and it'll solve all your issues.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

snausage said:


> Notice how all of your rhizome plants are doing well and everything else is doing poorly? Something is up with the substrate; perhaps it has developed anaerobic patches or simply needs some additional root fertilization.


I actually questioned this. I'm afraid of moving all the substrate around because I don't want to kick up all that nasty stuff and end up with green water. That's another problem I don't need!!! I think I will leave a few floating stems and see if they do a lot better than the planted stems.

Come to think of it, the melting started a few weeks ago when I decided to try GH booster. I think I might stay away from it for a few weeks, then maybe try adding it slooowly.

Also, you said *blue-green algae*? Where do you see that?

*Mistergreen*, I went down from three bulbs to two. Are you saying that I should decrease it to one bulb?


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Amazonfish said:


> Also, you said *blue-green algae*? Where do you see that?
> 
> *Mistergreen*, I went down from three bulbs to two. Are you saying that I should decrease it to one bulb?


It's all over the back of tank one.

Instead of only running one bulb you can decrease the total hours of light by an hour or two. You don't want to change too many factors or else you'll never figure out what's going on.

BTW, did you get the plants I sent you????


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Yes, thank you! I'm at the library and so overwhelmed with school but I had just enough time this afternoon between class and dentist's appointment to open the box and float the plants. I will plant them tomorrow...in the tank that is yielding good growth  That is definitely a boat load of Bacopa 'japan'! I saw some Lindernia in there (thanks! You can see some in the first pic of tank 1, too). And what's the last one you sent? I'm not good with plant IDs but it looks like a syngonanthus to me.

Sorry for not saying something sooner. I've been a little 'off' since the dentist's appointment because I cracked TWO teeth and have to get a root canal and a couple crowns. *$3500*. Imagine that. I'm a STUDENT and no dental insurance!! :frown: But I've gotta do it. It hurts! I need to get these tank problems fixed so I can sell some plants! LOL. :frown:

As for the 'blue green algae', I really thought that was green dust algae. But you know what? I will try the maracyn, since I'm going to my LFS tomorrow to get a few things.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

Amazonfish said:


> Yes, thank you! I'm at the library and so overwhelmed with school but I had just enough time this afternoon between class and dentist's appointment to open the box and float the plants. I will plant them tomorrow...in the tank that is yielding good growth  That is definitely a boat load of Bacopa 'japan'! I saw some Lindernia in there (thanks! You can see some in the first pic of tank 1, too). And what's the last one you sent? I'm not good with plant IDs but it looks like a syngonanthus to me.
> 
> Sorry for not saying something sooner. I've been a little 'off' since the dentist's appointment because I cracked TWO teeth and have to get a root canal and a couple crowns. *$3500*. Imagine that. I'm a STUDENT and no dental insurance!! :frown: But I've gotta do it. It hurts! I need to get these tank problems fixed so I can sell some plants! LOL. :frown:
> 
> As for the 'blue green algae', I really thought that was green dust algae. But you know what? I will try the maracyn, since I'm going to my LFS tomorrow to get a few things.


I know I gave you a few stems of syngonanthus 'belem'. It's the bushy one that kind of looks like a palm tree.

Maracyn is a bit expensive, but it's extremely effective at eliminating bga (since bga is bacterial). If you dose as per the manufacturer's instructions it should knock it out in a week and I'm sure the tank will bounce right back after that.

Just pm me if you need anymore help. I hope your tank comes back quickly because you've got some pretty cool stems in there!


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Not sure that is BGA. Nothing eats BGA and there are tracks all through your stuff. During my long siege I noticed BGA would come off in icky slimy sheets using an airline siphon and when disturbed it would float in the water as very thin threads that would land and colonize another spot in the tank. I bet you are right and it is GDA. What does the free stuff look like when you wipe the glass, dust or threads? I left GDA on the glass for a long time as the critters in the tank loved it.

Bet the congested tank theory is right. I would pull everything out, clean the filter and give the substrate a going over. Replant the good stuff and do another water change and prefilter rinse the next day. Repeat prefilter rinse daily if you notice any debris on it.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

I've had blue-green algae before, and I really don't think this is it, either. Pretty sure it's green dust. It definitely doesn't come off in threads. More like dust. 

I will clean the filters on the 50 gallon this week, and keep doing the other things I'm doing. I'll update again later this week! Is anyone still reading this thread?

*Update*

12 gallon 

seems to be doing much better! The tank has no algae aside from green spot algae on the glass. The plants are GROWING!!! Rotala mexicana 'goias' now has pink tips (I haven't seen that in a loooong time). The Staurogyne is taking a little longer to bounce back, but I really do think that there's some nice deep green growth to it.

50 gallon


Still not doing too great. There's a little more growth than before, but also more green dust algae on the glass and leaves of some plants.

More patience maybe?


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

*Update*

I actually bought GLA atomic CO2 diffusers for these two tanks and installed them yesterday. Before that, they both had the mini elite modified as a diffuser. I was using a bubble rate of *TWELVE bps* for the 50 gallon, and I was hoping that I would have to use less with the new diffuser. Not so. I am still using 12 bps and getting the same green color as before. Is this a normal bubble rate for that size tank?

12 gallon

Some plants doing a lot better. The staurogyne is definitely growing, but still has some yellowing, especially of the veins. The bottom leaves look chewed off, though I'm positive that no creatures did that. So, I still can't figure out what kind of deficiency that is. 

I will post some pictures next week.

50 gallon

There's still some melting going on, but I think it has slightly improved. I also see growth here.


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

If your dosing EI, there should be NO deficiencies, except for 1; co2. Light stays the same, and if dosing stays consistent, there's only 1 thing left, co2.

When I had to increase co2, I also had to add a bit of surface agitation. When I did this, my fish had no problems and plants began growing incredibly well.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

12 bps? That sounds like a leak in your co2 to me.


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Oh wow, didn't read that part.. I'm only using 3-4 maybe 5bps in my 75 and im getting awesome pearling and healthy growth.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Wow. I wonder where the leak is then.... How would I check? The leak must be after the bubble counter then, right? But then again, it can't be where the tubing connects to the diffuser, because I am also using 3 bps on my 12 gallon, which uses the same CO2 tank. 

I have one bubble counter right on the regulator that connects to tubing to my 50 gallon. Then i have tubing that bypasses that bubble counter, goes across the room on the ceiling, attaches to another needle valve and bubble counter, and goes to the 12 gallon. 

Maybe the leak explains why these tanks had been doing so crappy.


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## fishykid1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Did you use teflon when you attached the bubble counter? How 3bps seems high for a 12 gallon...


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Amazonfish said:


> Wow. I wonder where the leak is then.... How would I check? The leak must be after the bubble counter then, right? But then again, it can't be where the tubing connects to the diffuser, because I am also using 3 bps on my 12 gallon, which uses the same CO2 tank.
> 
> I have one bubble counter right on the regulator that connects to tubing to my 50 gallon. Then i have tubing that bypasses that bubble counter, goes across the room on the ceiling, attaches to another needle valve and bubble counter, and goes to the 12 gallon.
> 
> Maybe the leak explains why these tanks had been doing so crappy.


If it's a leak, that would be my bet. You may be getting fluctuating co2 as a result. It's happened to me twice. Turn off your co2 regulator, Make a soapy mixture, and paint it on all connections (not in the aquarium, lol). If you see bubbles, there will be the leak. Then, if all is good, re-coat the areas and turn back on the co2 and look again. Mine was leaking right before the bubble counter on a connection between the solenoid and needle valve, and a brass check valve was leaking before as well.


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## Amazonfish (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks! I will check today or tomorrow. Then I will update


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