# new lava rock scape - 90P



## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

I think you could do a lot better with the arrangement. You also need smaller pieces of lava rock around the larger pieces to help feather the transition from soil to rock.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

small pieces are in the works i might also bring up soil higher in the right back corner.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

It's really off-balance to the left. If you can remove the rocks and take a picture of them, it would be much easier to see the shapes as black rocks on black soil just doesn't photograph well.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

i think thats the part of the problem in reality it looks way better since the picture is not showing all the details. i don't know if you can see the little cascade that is going on the right side. it will have a multi level of plants. thanks


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

I think it looks good and if you like it go with it. It will never live up to Solcielo's expectations so I wouldn't even try. I have yet to see him say he likes anything. Please do show us novices how to scape a tank Solcielo, and I mean a tank you have done and not examples of pictures you find online.


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## Agent69 (Oct 9, 2013)

Solcielo is a tough critic but it helped me with scaping my first iwagumi. Although I would love to see one of his scapes :smile:


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## AGUILAR3 (Jun 22, 2013)

Agent69 said:


> Solcielo is a tough critic but it helped me with scaping my first iwagumi. Although I would love to see one of his scapes :smile:




When I first read Agent69's response, I went back and found a ton of harsh comments made by Solcielo and my first thought was "who is this guy and what has he done to give him the right to be an [email protected]" but then I thought to my self....If I asked for critique, I would want someone to be blunt honest with me and make me think twice about my scape. 

It's easy to tell someone their scape looks good and that it could be better if they changed this or moved that but to tell someone their scape sucks, well, it isn't that easy lol

I've seen quite a few scapes that made me thing "WTF" yet every other response was "looks good", "love the layout" or "cant wait to see it filled in". Everybody has different taste so with all the kind comments and words of encouragement, IMHO, a few "balls to the wall" critiques are more than welcome.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

AGUILAR3 said:


> When I first read Agent69's response, I went back and found a ton of harsh comments made by Solcielo and my first thought was "who is this guy and what has he done to give him the right to be an [email protected]" but then I thought to my self....If I asked for critique, I would want someone to be blunt honest with me and make me think twice about my scape.
> 
> It's easy to tell someone their scape looks good and that it could be better if they changed this or moved that but to tell someone their scape sucks, well, it isn't that easy lol
> 
> I've seen quite a few scapes that made me thing "WTF" yet every other response was "looks good", "love the layout" or "cant wait to see it filled in". Everybody has different taste so with all the kind comments and words of encouragement, IMHO, a few "balls to the wall" critiques are more than welcome.


I completely agree that an honest opinion is better than sugar coating it but I have yet to see him give a positive critique. It comes across as condescending and a lot of these people are either new to the hobby or are younger. I would respect his opinion a whole lot more if he would share some of his work but this has been asked several times with no response and I'm pretty sure I know why. 

Would you let someone tell you how to write a song that has never picked up an instrument themselves?


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## Divine Winds (Feb 16, 2008)

I recall reading one of the Iwagumi articles in TFH recently that touched on rock placement. Specifically it mentioned a radial arrangement. Drawing from that, maybe position the middle rock so it's pointing towards the back right and point the right rock more towards the front right to add better depth and balance? Just something to consider, though I do like the way you have it now too.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Pesonally, I think it needs a Flourescent Orange plastic Roman column.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Positive critiques/comments should never be given unless they are truthful. Saying nice/positive things only lowers the standard for what is acceptable. We aren't born playing an instrument at an incredibly high level; it is cultivated through time, instruction/education, and excruciating amounts of effort. While a parent will be happy that their child can play Hot Cross Buns on the recorder, no one else will be genuinely impressed unless that child is super cute. AWWW... SO cute! In which case, they are more taken by his cuteness than actual recorder-playing ability.

We can't all be William Bouguereau:









or Michelangelo:









Both of whom consistently created superb quality works. But to praise lesser works the same does a disservice to real talent and skill.
For example, like praising Jackson Pollack:









Or my own version of Moon Woman which took only two hours to recreate:









(Mine is better.)

This has a timelessness:









and this is just tacky:








Even if you removed the cows, the rock arrangement is still poor.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Divine Winds said:


> I recall reading one of the Iwagumi articles in TFH recently that touched on rock placement. Specifically it mentioned a radial arrangement. Drawing from that, maybe position the middle rock so it's pointing towards the back right and point the right rock more towards the front right to add better depth and balance? Just something to consider, though I do like the way you have it now too.


Be careful when reading these kinds of articles because they were not written by artists but by lesser aquascapers who read an article somewhere and rehashed/plagiarized it. If you followed these guidelines, for which there are a few on the internet, you'll inevitably come across issues that just can't be resolved using them, like some members who've tried here. Some of these guidelines are just wrong, e.g. confusing the golden ratio with the rule of thirds. And some of these "professional aquascapers" even use poor examples and praise their own works as good. It's important to use exceptionally good examples when making a point, not bad ones being labeled as "good".

Anyway, by "radial" I assume it means like a bicycle wheel has radial spokes. If that's the case, this simply wouldn't work in this tank with those rocks. Those rocks are simply too large to support itself at any kind of steep angle so it will visually feel like it's falling unless it has a structural support that prevents it.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

More pictures of art and pictures of others tanks but still no pictures of your tanks Solcielo. Why?

Show people how to properly scape a tank by showing how you do it in your own tanks. That would be a huge service to this community.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

well a lot of posts  i will try to play around with it. one reason why i need to have the right side sort of empty is that i'll have cpr over flow box on that side. will post more pictures if i come up with anything good


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

just moved it around also this is not going to be full blown iwagumi .i'm planing on more rocky scape with regular plants 
monte carlo or UG 
stauro
AR mini ?
mini pellia
fissidens
pogostemon erectus ?


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Oh... that left rock is actually more than one piece. I thought it was a single tall rock. It might look better if the big one were switched with the tall skinny one.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Keep it clean, folks. There's never a need for insults or foul language on the forum.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

See if you can think about the rocks as if they had weight in your mind. 
The left (no matter that it is 2 or more pieces) has the largest mass. Takes up the most room, and is the heaviest. Call this the primary mass. 
The center and the right have a similar mass, just one is lying down (call this the secondary mass) and one is vertical (call this the tertiary mass). 

It is too heavy on the left. See what it looks like if you swap places with the center (tertiary) and left (Primary) rocks. 
The primary mass should be about 1/3 of the way from one side. 
The secondary mass (OK if it needs to lie down) should be 1/3 of the way from the other side. 
Additional material (tertiary mass or smaller pieces) should be smaller than either of the primary or secondary masses. 

Try it this way:
1/3 of the way from the left: Primary mass. 
Leaning against this, or even lying down: the tertiary mass. 
1/3 of the way from the right: Secondary mass. (This is just about where it is already) but do something to make it a bit bigger. Perhaps lift it higher on a hill? Perhaps add some smaller stones in front of it? Maybe it needs to be turned around, about 90 degrees to where it is, now. Make it angle from the right front corner toward the back middle or left of middle. 

If you already have the overflow box or something like it (maybe just any ol' HOB filter) hang that in the location and see what it does. 

Try several rock arrangements and take a couple of pictures of each. 
Post perhaps your 3 favorites. Then you can use the pictures to re-create the layout you finally decide on.


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## greenteam (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't know about design so I showed both pics to my wife who's a graphic designer/photographer for a living and knows all the art stuff that I don't. 

She said your first one was much better because even do you had 4 stones you set them apart to stay with odd number (something about you never use even numbers). Second she mention you have good use of negative space in the first one unlike the second that has that center stone drawing your eye and overpowering the rest of the scape.

But that's her artistic point of view so not sure how this translates to aquascaping lol.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

The overwhelming theme I see here is it is in the eye of the beholder. I like the first one best. So......while it is great to ask for opinions and ideas the only one who matters is the person who passes by the tank daily and how they like it. I like to walk by my tank quickly or glance at it to see what my eyes catch and if that is what I want them to be drawn to. 
My 2 cents.


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## Aplomado (Feb 20, 2013)

Solceilo, show us some pictures of your tanks please.


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## Steve002 (Feb 7, 2014)

I don't think it was off balance to the left as I feel the two rocks on the left made up one focal point that fell about on line with the rules of thirds and thus looked right to me. I do like the suggestion for some smaller rocks to feather out the transition.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

will post new picture tonight . i went back to almost same set up as in the first picture but left a little bigger gap between the two rocks and i rotated the one on the left a little towards the front.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Where did you get the black lava rocks?


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

greaser84 said:


> Where did you get the black lava rocks?


local landscaping supply


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

ok here is some more . picture quality is pretty bad but you'll get an idea. i like the one with one rock in the front better was also trying to put in some manzanita that i picked up last time i went to sierras but that didn't work at all i think


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## Steve002 (Feb 7, 2014)

I like it.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

What's the goal of this arrangement?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Too much (largest pieces) of the hardscape is 'squeezed' into the left corner. Personally I think part of the problem is the two tall stones. I don't think you need both. I will remove the thinner one from the middle and put the larger one more toward the middle, but off center to the left. Fill in some more substrate and see how it looks.


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## Tyrone (Nov 22, 2013)

I've also done a lava rock scape, but used various sized pieces to create my so-called mountains. They were secured with hot glue, a tip acquired by Amano during one of his scape demos on youtube. I can't call mine a work of art, but I tried my best. I'm pretty happy with the results.

I'm too lazy to put together a journal on here, for all my pics are scattered. I apologize in advance for the poor quality iphone pics, but that's all I have to work with at the moment.

Here's a link to my journal from my local club/forum:

http://scapeclub.org/forum/showthread.php?23959-Tyrone-s-quot-Jungle-Expedition-quot

I hope it helps in any way possible.


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## angry starfish (Oct 14, 2007)

berry berry nice!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

i like the look of this guy tank http://www.aquascapingworld.com/threads/september-2010-aquascape-of-the-month-sky-cliff.3472/ and the look of black lava rock and green plant mass combo in general , there is a lot of black lava rock scapes can't post them all here but that is the reason why i went for lava rock now its just about getting the "right scape " and since there is probably no right or wrong scape its quite hard. so i thought i ask since we have a lot of good scapers here on TPT . thank you guys all for your suggestions so far


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

just found this getting close http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4897 just kidding


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

wintu said:


> just found this getting close http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4897 just kidding


I think you could probably attempt to duplicate something like that from the hardscape you have. Bear in mind that exact setup was done by a commercial company. It's goal was to produce that picture at the tank's 'peak' to show what is possible. The tank won't always look that way as it would require heavy maintenance, especially from an individual.


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## gt turbo (Sep 13, 2012)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Be careful when reading these kinds of articles because they were not written by artists but by lesser aquascapers who read an article somewhere and rehashed/plagiarized it. If you followed these guidelines, for which there are a few on the internet, you'll inevitably come across issues that just can't be resolved using them, like some members who've tried here. Some of these guidelines are just wrong, e.g. confusing the golden ratio with the rule of thirds. And some of these "professional aquascapers" even use poor examples and praise their own works as good. It's important to use exceptionally good examples when making a point, not bad ones being labeled as "good".
> 
> Anyway, by "radial" I assume it means like a bicycle wheel has radial spokes. If that's the case, this simply wouldn't work in this tank with those rocks. Those rocks are simply too large to support itself at any kind of steep angle so it will visually feel like it's falling unless it has a structural support that prevents it.


I'd like to add here though that the article be referred to was in fact written by Takashi Amano and translated by Tomoko Schum. It was entitled "An Iwagumi Layout with Radially Arranged Stones", page 46 of the March issue of Tropical Fish Hobbyist.

Solcielo lawrencia, you give good advice in general however I find sometimes you can come over a bit harsh in your delivery. I think it would be better appreciated if you tell persons the issues you have with their layouts, why and what you would do to change it, as well as ask them to come up with their own options provided they agree with the issues you have identified.

Additionally, I too would like to see some of your scapes. I believe they would help bring some credibility to your advice.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

gt turbo said:


> ..
> 
> Additionally, I too would like to see some of your scapes. I believe they would help bring some credibility to your advice.


I don't know. After all Simon Cowell doesn't sing!


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

houseofcards said:


> I don't know. After all Simon Cowell doesn't sing!


So you're saying Solcielo is the Simon Cowell of the aquascaping world? Because that is a horrible analogy. At least Simon Cowell has the resume of finding talent even if its groups like One Direction that will fall into oblivion just like all the other boy bands/pop stars. I think people would be more accepting if he would just show some of his work rather than just coming across as condescending with his posts. 


FYI:
I wouldn't take singing advice from Simon Cowell either.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ua hua said:


> So you're saying Solcielo is the Simon Cowell of the aquascaping world? Because that is a horrible analogy. At least Simon Cowell has the resume of finding talent even if its groups like One Direction that will fall into oblivion just like all the other boy bands/pop stars. I think people would be more accepting if he would just show some of his work rather than just coming across as condescending with his posts.
> 
> 
> FYI:
> I wouldn't take singing advice from Simon Cowell either.


It was kinda tongue-in-cheek. :red_mouth, but there are some similarities simply because of the tone of this messages and the harshness of his critique regardless of the experience level of the poster. At this point I have to assume he doesn't scape since he's been asked to show his work many times. So one more time Solcielo, show us your work, pretty please with a cherry on top! I promise to be a fair judge of your talent.


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

I like that last scape. The only thing that bothers me is the middle rock being a little too tall and thin so it kind of competes for attention with the larger left rock. Any chance you could break it and make it shorter if you agree with my idea, for instance take off the top 1/3 so it isn't so tall. Just an idea. Otherwise you are def on the right track and I wanna start seeing plants.


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## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

sometimes i wish i wasn't an aquarium person, and i happened to stumble on one of these threads. I'm sure normal people would think we are crazy, talking about slant of rocks, and flow....... they are rocks people


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## Aqua Jon (May 28, 2013)

Here is a personal tip that I use. Take pictures of as many combinations of set ups that you can imagine. Do this with the look you have in mind. Additionally include some set ups far outside of what you would be willing to allow within your individual expectations for the tank. Art is about honing perspective. You will see potential in all of these and be certain of your layout this way. 

It is easy to follow "rules" but there is a tasteful way to step around them. Odd numbers are not always "the solution". And you can split the gold rule into 5ths and balance an "uneven" tank with good understanding of where the tank will mature. 

Do this and post your favorite 5 and what you like about them with what you feel may be missing from each potential. This will help you answer your own questions and begin to teach yourself how to be the discerning artist. Dont be afraid to step around the rules. See if you cant address them from a separate dimension. Remember, some of the greats were considered "artistic trash" in their day.


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## wintu (Feb 2, 2012)

added some small rock and shift the middle one little bit i think i will leave it as it is and plants the damn thing  i think with UG as a foreground going between the rocks little stauro on the left side terrace and fissidens and a lot of mini pellia on the rocks will look good also probably some rotala green or maybe colorata in the background


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## jeepguy (Jul 24, 2013)

wintu said:


> added some small rock and shift the middle one little bit i think i will leave it as it is and plants the damn thing  i think with UG as a foreground going between the rocks little stauro on the left side terrace and fissidens and a lot of mini pellia on the rocks will look good also probably some rotala green or maybe colorata in the background


Ha, pm me if u need rotala colorata. Was about to do a RAOK for a handful for the price of shipping. Stuff is a great weed. I Have two overflow tanks filled with the stuff right now.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

wintu said:


> added some small rock and shift the middle one little bit i think i will leave it as it is and plants the damn thing  i think with UG as a foreground going between the rocks little stauro on the left side terrace and fissidens and a lot of mini pellia on the rocks will look good also probably some rotala green or maybe colorata in the background


I'll just go ahead and display my ignorance to the whole world and say that even though I'm not a big iwagumi fan, I like the layout.


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## Beelzebubbles (Feb 14, 2014)

any updates on this tank?


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