# Plantbrain is on the money...



## m.lemay (Jul 28, 2002)

Tom definitely knows how to grow aquatic weeds. His methods have helped my tank out tremendously. Now I get to aquascape instead of test test test, screw with that nutrient or the other. I just do what he tells me to do and everything grows nice. To be honest, I poo pooed some of his ideas, but my ideas weren't working so I took him on his word, and within 3 weeks my tank is flourishing. Wolfy helped me out a lot also with his dosing schedule thats based on Toms methods.

Good stuff roud: 

Marcel


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## Gill Man (Feb 5, 2005)

Yes, thanks to Tom for his research and making it simple to just grow the plants without worrying about algae. It's only been a few weeks, and my tank has never looked better. Sure I still have a little aglae, but it's mild in comparison to the struggles of the past few years. I can finally think about aquascaping with perfect specimens instead of the ragged looking ones that just weren't doing well, no matter what I tried. Heck, I want to try E. diversifolia again. Using this method, I feel confident that it will grow well this time around! Thanks to you all, also, for keeping the topic alive with these threads and sharing your results!

I'm one happy camper!  

:fish: :fish: :fish:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Oh there are many places to grow into next

Getting the plants growing and then tweaking the tanks and keeping up on them will go a long way. You guys still have marine and non CO2 tank methods and someday you'll test and get curious, but it's fine if you don't also......



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Curare (Sep 15, 2004)

I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.

My GF is playing with marine tanks at the mo, and we're all learning a great deal, but I'm liking having a secret garden hidden in my fish tanks for now


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## TeeItUp (Mar 18, 2004)

Same for me too. I adapted to his higher CO2 and Estimative Index of dosing and my tank has never looked better. roud: 
That’s why I joined his Barr Report.


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## Aulonochromis (Jan 14, 2005)

I've been using his EI, but only dosing 1X per week, on my low light tank and it's been the most algae free tank I've ever had. Who would have thought adding P gets rid of algae?  roud:


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Man I hate this thread.....Opps, I mean congratulations, I'm so happy for you guys. I've tried the same thing with good results as far as the plant growth, but the longer I keep up the (Barr method) the more algae I get and it grows faster and faster. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Tom or his method I'm just trying to figure out what the he&# is wrong with my tank. 

Seems that I'm always looking at the posts to see what is different about my tank and the others that are doing well. I've come to the conclusion that my tank may be grossly under powered in the GPH department. I always get these dumb ideas like " A rolling stone gathers no moss". I have 2 - Eheim 2215 filters on a 150 gallon tank, that gives me a flow rate of 328 GPH (only twice the tanks volume), I was thinking of switching to 2 - 2217 filters = 532 GPH or 3.5 times the tank volume, or maybe even 2 - 2250 filters = 600 GPH or 4 time the tank volume.

Is this just crazy thinking or could circulation be a big part of my problems??


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Good water circulation is important but I would not attribute that to excessive algae. One large powerhead would give you better circulation in the tank overall but I would guess that you have excessive nutrients for the algae to feed on.
An important piece of the EI dosing is that you "0" out the tank weekly with a 50% WC... in a tank that large that is a lot of water, are you doing your water changes "by the book" ?
If not then you will definately be getting unused ferts in the water column to build up and algae will take control. 

How about CO2 ? Is that up to snuff ? 
Is your dosing to High ? Too Low ?
PO4 ? Do test for it or assume you need to dose it ?

Its a big puzzle and you are missing a piece somewhere...


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Buck, I get close but not exactly 50%. I figure with my volume minus the substrate, so I actually have a 130 gallons of water in the tank. I am changing out about 43% weekly or 57 gallons. I test for GH after my water change and adjust it with Kent R/O Right for now (after this runs out I'm going to switch to Seachem or GW). I wait a day for the CO2 to come back up after the water change and then I dose macros, next day micros, next day test all parameters and dose macros accordingly (everything is right on the money, except my Iron is always a little low), next day micros, now this is day 5 and I don't dose anymore this week, I tried to dose all week for 2 or 3 weeks prior to this method and the algae on the glass needed to be cleaned every three days and the lower and inner leaves of my plants were getting too much algae, besides my nutrient levels stay good for rest of the week.

I used to test every day but after the water change my nutrient levels were consistantly depleted and after dosing my levels stay good without adding a lot of macros or micros. I have to admit that I dose the micros somewhat blindly because I only have test kits for Fe.

I thought my circulation being poor might be part of the cause, you know how you see the ponds in the summer with little or no flow covered with algae. I also noticed that folks on the forum with smaller tanks usually have larger canister filters than they need.

I could pick up a couple more gallons on water changes by lowering my intake tubes a inch or two. Do you think the 7% I'm missing really makes the difference?


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

No, I dont think that little percentage is going to make a big difference, your WC's seem OK, although 7% in your tank is a lot of water. Adding some water circulation will definately help with the algae settling in on plants , I like a powerhead down low giving water flow over the substrate and plant bases. It will not solve the issue but it will help.
How about your lights ? How long yu running them ? 
I was running my lights at 11 hours and found that to be way to long and was getting nuisance algae like you mention. I have since cut back to 9 hours and that helped immensely.
I think that higher watt lights need not be run as long for the plants to complete the process and after that it only helps the algae.

BTW, did you test your PO4 ? This killed me with the new dosing per EI...
I found that in the EI dosing I really did not need to dose it as many of the "schedules" suggest and I was at 10ppm which is outrageous... its the only thing I test for now and find that I only need to add it every now and then. Between my water source and food I keep a decent level .

The CO2 still has me thinking, you are sure you do have good levels right ?


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

150EH said:


> Man I hate this thread.....Opps, I mean congratulations, I'm so happy for you guys. I've tried the same thing with good results as far as the plant growth, but the longer I keep up the (Barr method) the more algae I get and it grows faster and faster. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Tom or his method I'm just trying to figure out what the he&# is wrong with my tank.


just want you to know not to feel too bad...i've also been following the EI method now for about a month (religiously)and not really seeing the desired results either. :icon_frow my tank doesn't look terrible nor is the algae outta control but plant growth seems slow and thread aglae remains low but unrelenting! 

very frustrating to see that everyone else has great results but us! just wanted you to know not to feel too bad cause you're not the only one!


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

Are ya'll giving the tank consistent high levels of co2. I also was having algae growth increase when I first started dosing. My diy co2 kept going out of whack, and falling too low, about 17 at the lowest. I have since fixed the problem and am keeping co2 no lower than 35ppm. Growth is amazing, and the only algae left is green dust on my glass. Also I had to increase the my levels of phosphates higher that recommended because of green spot.


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

i've got pressurised co2 running just under 40ppm. po4, no3, K+,traces all dosed meticulously for at least a month now.... :icon_frow :icon_frow guess it's back to square one or try a different method, guess that's what it's all about huh?


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Hey fishy,
Maybe I missed your specs? What size is your tanks and what method are you using to get your CO2 into the tank? Are you checking your CO2 throughout the photo period?
jB


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> Hey fishy,
> Maybe I missed your specs? What size is your tanks and what method are you using to get your CO2 into the tank? Are you checking your CO2 throughout the photo period?
> jB


55g tank / 260w light
pressurized co2, sm122 controller 
kh-7
ph-6.8
n03- 20
po4-.2

i believe i've had issues with no3 and po4 being too high so i've ditched the tetramin pro flakes! and now i'm trying a slight variation of the EI and tank seems to be getting responding.


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

Do you check for PH swings during your photo period? I have found that unless i have a good reactor......my CO2 will dip at the end of the photoperiod. This instability doesnt help any algae situation. I feel your pain. These guys make it sound so easy. Put your Co2 here, dose this and this.....and your amano!!! HAHAHA But the fact of the matter is....there is no easy way to do this. These methods are great starts....but the successful planters have that experience that lets them make changes that they dont even know they are changing.....nor would they be able to put it into a method. 
jB


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## fishyface (Oct 7, 2004)

Jason Baliban said:


> I feel your pain. These guys make it sound so easy. Put your Co2 here, dose this and this.....and your amano!!! HAHAHA But the fact of the matter is....there is no easy way to do this. These methods are great starts....but the successful planters have that experience that lets them make changes that they dont even know they are changing.....nor would they be able to put it into a method.
> jB


hey thanks! maybe we should start a support group! hahahaha hehe
i'm just tryin to have patience and seem to be using a blend of different methods now...tank seems to be coming around. it's funny though how EI (and other) methods of dosing seem to be like religion (very personal, very faithful followers)! BANG it works great and no probs! i'm more of the "try this, and abit of that" kinda guy. 
:icon_roll


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## Jason Baliban (Mar 3, 2005)

fishyface said:


> hey thanks! maybe we should start a support group! hahahaha hehe
> i'm just tryin to have patience and seem to be using a blend of different methods now...tank seems to be coming around. it's funny though how EI (and other) methods of dosing seem to be like religion (very personal, very faithful followers)! BANG it works great and no probs! i'm more of the "try this, and abit of that" kinda guy.
> :icon_roll


So true......HAHAHAHA!!! This is a very EI swayed forum. I belong to two others......one is very PPS and the other is neither. They are almost cult like....hahahha. All speaking the same brainwashed quotes. Its like "Office Space" but with aquariums. HAHA But alas, these guys know what they are doing. We have to listen and learn. But one thing I do know.....CO2 is so important in high light tanks like the one you have. Just make sure your levels are above 30ppm throughout the entire photoperiod. My tank has hight light and my DIY reactor could not keep up so I had to get a better reactor. If that is in check you are a big part of the puzzle. We should start a new forum....."Failed users of EI and PPS!!!....what next?!??!" HAHAHA
jB


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

> No, I dont think that little percentage is going to make a big difference, your WC's seem OK, although 7% in your tank is a lot of water. Adding some water circulation will definately help with the algae settling in on plants , I like a powerhead down low giving water flow over the substrate and plant bases. It will not solve the issue but it will help.
> How about your lights ? How long yu running them ?
> I was running my lights at 11 hours and found that to be way to long and was getting nuisance algae like you mention. I have since cut back to 9 hours and that helped immensely.
> I think that higher watt lights need not be run as long for the plants to complete the process and after that it only helps the algae.
> ...


I have a Maxi-Jet 400 I can stick in the tank, and I run my lights staggered from 11 to 10 hours. I have been thinking of reducing the timer down to 9 hours with a 2 hour break in the middle of the day. My PO4 according to my kit is always 0.1 ppm and I find that if I dose KH2PO4 my algae problems get worse. I have three ways to check the CO2 and between them I average about 30 ppm.

You know I think I'm going to try the lights first for a couple of weeks, I like the idea of the siesta (Hiscock) and the 9 hour photo period. That way the light will be on longer in the evenings. Thanks for the suggestions, I have to get on the ball as soon as the weather breaks I know the tank is going to get neglected.

By the way how does everbody get the name "Original posted by Buck" to show up?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

All methods are universal with respect to focusing on plant's needs.
Some want to imply that there is somethign magical about EI or PPS or Non CO2 methods, same goes to the commericial side with ADA, Dupla and Dennerle. 

Some assume excess causes algae, some assume test kits are needed, some assume no CO2 is needed, some what the plants, some assume water changes are needed, some not. 

For any system to worjk well, it must focus on the plant's needs.
This is a *rate* of growth issue. At lower light, plants grow slower and that makes some methods easier than others. That's a very large issue.

New folks should focus on one method for awhile, then try another method and see the trade offs, blending seldom works and causes more issues.
Many try it, I was no different. 

PPS and EI can be the same things except EI does not suggest test kits, but it does not mean you cannot use them. Like wise PPS does noit mean you must test a great deal either. Nor does EI suggest you must do 50% weekly water changes, you estimate the needs of the tank over several weeks and get away with fewer water changes or dosing as you gain experience and get to know your plants. We all slack off and neglect the routines sometimes

Neither PPS nor EI are as rigid as many newer folks seem to think. It took me awhile to see what Edward was suggesting there. But we did this with PMDD already a decade ago, the difference is that PO4 and traces are not assumed to cause algae. Non CO2 methods are PPS without the test kits.
Reef tanks also PPS. 

You have plenty of time to try out several methods, you need to ask what trade offs are implied of each method.

I have 10 tanks, some are EI dosed, some are non CO2, some are marine, some are emergent.

I also have lighting from 1.2w/gal to 6w/gal.

Getting folks going and successful over ther web is not an easy thing.
I suggest a local club and getting involved there or a plant club shin dig.

You will learn a great deal this way.
Main thing for you to think about is what is your personal goal with the tank and what you are willing to do to get it there.

Some simply buy a complete ADA set up.
Some build and monkey with everything for a long time first but find enjoyment in that.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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