# new dirted tank questions



## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm here for answers, suggestions, and comments, so shoot away!

*Tank*: 75 gallon heavily planted community

*Lighting*: dual T8 fixture with a cool white and a daylight bulb (has anyone had problems with Philips?)

*Filtration*: plants. will have a potting soil substrate capped with sand, going for the Walstad method

*Water movement*: the tank has a built in overflow, so I plan to use a 10 gallon as a sump with a bunch of sponges

*Flora*:
Floating:
lilies (_Nymphaea odorata, __Nymphaea stellate_)
maybe water hyacinth? (_Eichhornia crassipes_)
Stems:
wisteria (_Hygrophila difformis_)
Brazilian pennywort (_Hydrocotyle leucocephala_)
Carpet:
pygmy chain sword (_Echinodorus tenellus_)
and/or
four leaf clover (_Marsilea quadrifolia_)
Other:
java fern (_Microsorum pteropus_) attached to driftwood and rocks
maybe java moss (_Taxiphyllum barbieri_)

*Fauna*:
~20-25 neon tetras
~8 assorted cories
3-6 marbled hatchets
whiptail cat
2 clown plecos
2 kribensis
German blue ram
lots of cherry shrimp if they can survive, lol


*Questions*:
What GPH and brand of pump should I look for? Not sure how much GPH Walstad tanks should ideally have.

I plan to dry start the tank using sunlight as I wait for its stand to be finished. I have lots of wisteria growing emersed outside, so I'm sure that will be fine, but what about other plants I have selected? Or what are some other options for plants that do really well with the dry start method? Also, which plants should I chop down when I fill the tank and which will be fine as they are?

I'd also like to add a good red stem plant, any suggestions there?

And my wife would enjoy another small school of fish that would add more life and color to the middle and top areas of the tank, suggestions for that as well?

Thanks:fish:


----------



## DerekFF (May 24, 2011)

Eheim 1260 gated down would be a good pump. 

Your plants are all good selections and easy to grow. 

Marble hatchets or threadfin rainbows would be good top schoolers 

Red stem plants uhm.....ludwigia sp red, sunset hygro(polysperma)




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

Lighting should dual T5 normal output at best.
Sump as bio filter will be unnecessary.
Keep the fauna numbers to a minimum.

Please do not call it a Walstad tank unless you read the book yourself. I mean no disrespect to you, but i especially don't want to see disrespect shown to Miss Walstad. She worked long and hard to develop her method. You will benefit tremendously by using her book, rather than listen to what everybody else has to say on the matter.

The book is available on itunes
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/ecology-planted-aquarium/id661029773?mt=11

Or in other formats digital formats
http://www.atlasbooks.com/marktplc/00388.htm


----------



## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

@DerekFF
Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into them.

@Rich Guano
Would 2 NO bulbs really be enough even though the fixture will be raised and there will be such big floaters filtering the light? Also, it isn't as close to a window as I would like it so it won't be getting the partial sunlight...

The sump is not meant for biological filtration, only mechanical and water movement.

And I was thinking for a 75 gallon that was minimal fauna, does it seem like too much?

I have read the book and fail to see where my setup deviates from her guidelines other than possibly the fact that it won't be near a window, which I'm trying to compensate for with better lighting... could you elaborate on why you don't think this would be a Walstad style setup?


----------



## DerekFF (May 24, 2011)

It's not walstad because its not exactly as she did. That being said you can call it whatever you want. Walstad variation, QWE special, DerekFF says so method. Don't worry about what it's called, if you do you should be a politics instead......... You should however read her book if you do want to replicate it closely. Otherwise there will be lots of experimentation on exactly how much light, hang height, water flow etc etc you'll need. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

Now that you read the book, now is the time to study it in depth. You never know the origin of the information unless it is refenced back to the book itself. Her book is based on research, not the anectodal evidense offered by many others. 

I don't mean to sound like some hardline Walstad wannabee, but the closer I follow her research the more I enjoy this hobby. I had dual ho over a 20" tank with salvinia before reading the book, now i am getting better results with just the one bulb. I am wishing I had the lower output with two bulbs so I can mix up the color spectrum as outlined in the study on page 180 regarding cool white and vitalite or 2700K with 6500K

All your questions are answered in chapter 11 practicle aquarium setup and maintenance.

Lighting page 178 paragraph 1 "The only ones I would avoid are thos designed for mairne tanks that often have far more light intensity and blue light than what is required for a planted tank. One must not forget that aquarium plants are basically shade plants"

Fauna page 183 last paragraph on moderate fish load "A tank overstocked with plants wil be a lot less trouble than one overstocked with fish.

Page 184 third paragraph on filters....

I hope that helps


----------



## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

One last thing...

Nobody is going to be able to set up one of her tanks correctly on the first go. It is going to take some practice, just the same as baking bread. The key ingredient in our case is time. The more time put into the tanks the better they are. Good things take a long time to happen, only the bad things happen very quickly. Upgrading equipment in search of faster results is the most common cause of tank failure. Even those who are successful going high tech end up having to put in a lot of maintenance time just to remain successful. Walstad's method will offer stability ar the end of the process. I hate calling it a method, the book,does not describe a method, it just described the research that has been validated to be successful.


----------



## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

You're right about the lighting, I had forgot about her section showing how much better normal cool white bulbs are, and I already have some cheap dual T8 fixtures lined up. That's the kind of advice I was looking for in creating this thread, thanks.

I still don't see how using a sump instead of an internal filter makes a difference, and I'm only going that route because the tank already has the built in overflow and it will be a convenient way to produce water movement and have a heater without having equipment in the tank. To keep it from developing the bacteria for a biological filtration, I plan to rinse the sponges in tap water often.

And again, she isn't very specific about what might constitute a "moderate fish load", hence me mentioning what I thought would be a moderate amount in my thread seeking advice...

As for setting up tanks in her style, this will be my fourth one, and the only trouble I've had in them has been BGA/cyanobacteria in two of them, but all plants, fish, and inverts have seemed to thrive in them. This would have been the first one I used too much lighting on but I was just worried about it not getting the sunlight my other tanks do...


----------



## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

I got an idea about the sump we can both live with, and hopefully Diane would be interested in trying....

Fill it very full of moss and allow your cherry shrimp to thrive in it. I beleive it would become an self cleaning filter once the shrimp begin to populate it. Now I want one. You solve the problem with predation, and you could occassionally offer them as fod to the main tank.

I have an idea about the algae, but I have no evidense to support it. Some say that the saltwater folks grow algea intentionally in a easy to maintain area such as the sump, under the assumtion, that this algea will out compete growth in the main tank. But diane says the same about plants out competing algae, being a higher life form. Its called algae scrubbing.
Otherwise you may needs do more frequent water changes which sucks or lower your bioload. Or create more current flow with internal power heads. What of these sounds like things that might work for you?


----------



## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

I have thought about making the sump more of a refugium like you're suggesting, not just for moss but a good place to grow trimmings and whatnot (reminds me of this guy's idea) just need to put a light down there, which I do have spares... I hadn't thought about it being a good shrimp haven as well, good idea!

Algae scrubbing is a popular one I know, and like you said, Diana Walstad would rather use plants than algae, and she usually advocates floating plants, especially frogbit. Maybe I'll let duckweed take over the sump too...

As for lowering the bioload, the only ones I don't actually have at the moment in my 55 that I'm upgrading with this tank are most of the neons and hatchets, so if I brought those numbers down to ~10 neons and 2 hatchets do you still think it would be too much?


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

*sump thoughts*

Sump thoughts, what I set up in 2011 (still using it).

Using 2 sponge panels (coarse to the intake / fine pore prior to the return pump)
Java or Xmas moss will slowly fill the center of my 20g tall sump. Once filled the lower level becomes light starved and the green moss fades to yellow then brown as it dies if not thinned. (imo) skip the floaters in the sump and let the moss have the light. I harvest the moss mess thinning the sump about every 3 months. Single 15w 5500K running 24/7.


----------



## chrisuf2000 (Jun 15, 2013)

I have a 29 gallon biocube tank (the newest iteration) that has the back chamber that's filled with bio balls in it right now for biological filtration. At the top of that chamber is the filter floss and carbon replaceable filter insert. In the newer biocube tanks that whole back of the chamber has clear glass exposed on the back side of the tank so you could turn it into a refugium if you ran a salt system in the tank. Are you saying that even in freshwater planted tank it may be better to ditch the bio balls and fill that chamber with a moss and then run a light on the chamber in the back 24/7? I'm just setting up this tank since I upgraded from 5 gallon tank and I'd like to get it as much natural maintenance free as possible. I didn't think refugium's really had a place in freshwater systems.




wkndracer said:


> Sump thoughts, what I set up in 2011 (still using it).
> 
> Using 2 sponge panels (coarse to the intake / fine pore prior to the return pump)
> Java or Xmas moss will slowly fill the center of my 20g tall sump. Once filled the lower level becomes light starved and the green moss fades to yellow then brown as it dies if not thinned. (imo) skip the floaters in the sump and let the moss have the light. I harvest the moss mess thinning the sump about every 3 months. Single 15w 5500K running 24/7.


----------



## Rich Guano (Jan 19, 2012)

Qwe said:


> As for lowering the bioload, the only ones I don't actually have at the moment in my 55 that I'm upgrading with this tank are most of the neons and hatchets, so if I brought those numbers down to ~10 neons and 2 hatchets do you still think it would be too much?


Let me share this thought about bioload. 

We choose to not overdue the lighting options so we dont exhuast the available carbon and nutrient sources in the tank. Therefor we avoid the need to add CO2 and daily,weekly ferts with the accompanied frequent water changes and plant trimming. Less light less work.

In turn, livestock levels will determine how frequent you will need to perform water changes, filter cleaning and such. So you should decide based on how much work you can put into it each week.

My opinion, i like my tanks to require so little maintenance that I can leave on holiday for several days or lose power for a week without incedent.

It is easier to add more fish than remove them, so start with the minimum you feel comfortable with. The lower the stocking level, the greater the probability that you will see spawning. A result of not being overstock, clean water, and good nutitious food. This to me is the expression of a great tank.

In the wild, when overcrowded, fish can choose to find a new place to live. I might sound like some dam fish hugger, but i think it is important part of your tanks overall heath to give your fish this choice as much as possible.


----------



## Qwe (Jul 8, 2013)

chrisuf2000 said:


> I have a 29 gallon biocube tank (the newest iteration) that has the back chamber that's filled with bio balls in it right now for biological filtration. At the top of that chamber is the filter floss and carbon replaceable filter insert. In the newer biocube tanks that whole back of the chamber has clear glass exposed on the back side of the tank so you could turn it into a refugium if you ran a salt system in the tank. Are you saying that even in freshwater planted tank it may be better to ditch the bio balls and fill that chamber with a moss and then run a light on the chamber in the back 24/7? I'm just setting up this tank since I upgraded from 5 gallon tank and I'd like to get it as much natural maintenance free as possible. I didn't think refugium's really had a place in freshwater systems.


I don't see why it wouldn't work, depending on the amount of plants/algae compared to the amount of livestock...


----------

