# 12G Long Mr. Aqua w/ 26W CFL - Too little or too much?



## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

My bf and I are about to flood our tank at the end of next week. Either on the 30th of this month or the 1st of Oct. and will let it cycle for 2 weeks before adding in CRS shrimps. We have been growing emersed plants in the tank since August 1st so the ammonia/nitrate cycle should be well off as well as the bacteria from what we have read.

All the plants have grown well, but what worries us is the lighting once flooded. Right now, we are using two clip-on lights from Finnex (the lights we are using are shown below). We took out the original bulbs and replaced it with the Lowe's 13W CF "Mini Spiral" that is equivalent to 60W in 6500K temps. So in total that is 26W of CFL equivalent to 120W (or so they claim). At the moment the lights look very bright, almost as bright as any 36" single T5HO I would imagine. 

With all that into play, we have very good growth in our HC, HM, Glosso, MM, and Mini Pellia so far. With the added height from our Shrimp Fluval Stratum Substrate we are using, the light is only 8-9" from the sub. on the high end and 9"-10" on the low end.

*So the important question. With this fixture, type of lighting and distance from the plants, is this considered high lighting, medium lighting, or low lighting? We tried to compare this to a few charts we often see as "PAR" but its so hard to tell...*

*We will be running pressurized CO2 in this setup for awhile to ease the transition of all the emersed plants once flooded, but will slowly wean off it once they have stabilized so we can raise shrimps successfully, however, with this lighting, will CO2 be necessary?*


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Based on: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/85667-par-data-spiral-power-saver-bulbs-5.html#post904062 it looks like you will have 60-80 micromols of PAR, which is in the high medium range, and with that much light CO2 is almost necessary, if not necessary. (This is assuming you have the lights on each end of the tank, so they make a row across the tank.)


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Based on: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/85667-par-data-spiral-power-saver-bulbs-5.html#post904062 it looks like you will have 60-80 micromols of PAR, which is in the high medium range, and with that much light CO2 is almost necessary, if not necessary. (This is assuming you have the lights on each end of the tank, so they make a row across the tank.)


Thank you Hoppy. Without your help I would have no idea because even looking at that chart just now, I am lost. I will see if they have the same type of bulb and color in 10W so I get 20W total light to prevent the need of CO2. The only reason is because I want to raise and breed CRS and CO2 could potentially become harmful to them unless I can get away with 1-2 bubbles per second at most with this lighting, would I?

PS: Yes I have the same fixture mounted on the other long end of the tank so that they are facing each other.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I think I have seen 9 watt CFL bulbs ("40 watt equivalent") That should drop the light intensity enough to do without CO2. But, if those little reflectors are not polished aluminum on the inside, the 13 watt bulbs may be just right. The chart was based on a polished aluminum reflector, I think.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> I think I have seen 9 watt CFL bulbs ("40 watt equivalent") That should drop the light intensity enough to do without CO2. But, if those little reflectors are not polished aluminum on the inside, the 13 watt bulbs may be just right. The chart was based on a polished aluminum reflector, I think.


Hoppy, my planted tank light guru :biggrin:, the reflectors appears to be plastic with chrome finish (aluminum like). I tapped on it, sounds more like plastic than aluminum to me. Will that qualify as "aluminum reflector"? So then does that make my current light just right or still would be better off to downgrade?

Underside of the light:


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

NeoShrimp said:


> Hoppy, my planted tank light guru :biggrin:, the reflectors appears to be plastic with chrome finish (aluminum like). I tapped on it, sounds more like plastic than aluminum to me. Will that qualify as "aluminum reflector"? So then does that make my current light just right or still would be better off to downgrade?
> 
> Underside of the light:


I would assume the reflector is good, and go with lower wattage bulbs.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> I would assume the reflector is good, and go with lower wattage bulbs.


Thanks much Hoppy! So if I do go lower, like a 9W or 10W bulb, is that still considered medium? I am growing HC and Downoi in that tank so I need at least medium or medium-high : )


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You have a dilemma! Shrimp don't breed well with high CO2 in the water. And, HC doesn't grow well without high CO2 in the water. (I'm not sure what Downoi requires, other than soft water.) I think most shrimp keepers, who want their shrimp to breed, just do without any plants that have to have good CO2 to grow well.

I think you will have enough light, with 9-10 watt bulbs, to grow anything, but only if you also use good CO2. Take away the CO2, and you will limit your plant choices. Add more light without more CO2 and you will have algae problems.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> You have a dilemma! Shrimp don't breed well with high CO2 in the water. And, HC doesn't grow well without high CO2 in the water. (I'm not sure what Downoi requires, other than soft water.) I think most shrimp keepers, who want their shrimp to breed, just do without any plants that have to have good CO2 to grow well.
> 
> I think you will have enough light, with 9-10 watt bulbs, to grow anything, but only if you also use good CO2. Take away the CO2, and you will limit your plant choices. Add more light without more CO2 and you will have algae problems.


Hoppy, you are right. There is a huge dilema. Our plan was to run CO2 on high for the first 2 weeks while transitioning the HC from emersed or submersed. On our 3rd week we would start slowly tunning it down and hopefully by the end of the month, we hope the HC would still do well without it. We have read a few forums where people can grow very beautiful HC's without CO2 so we are really hoping we can do the same. Nevertheless, thank you so much in assisting me on this matter. You really are a life saver : )


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Personally I think you'll have a very tough time keeping a nice carpet with that amount of light, especially without co2. So I think hobby is right in the regards to the dilemma. Most carpeting plants need more intense light than just a typical stem to keep growing low and tight.

I've grown HC in a 9.5" tall tank with two 9watt cfl bulbs and I could clearly see a big different how the HC grew on top of a 5" slope (closer to the light) and at the bottom (further from the light)


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## freph (Apr 4, 2011)

Would love to see this tank when it gets setup. I drool over those 12g longs...the dimensions are so nice. Gold luck with your HC carpet!


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> Personally I think you'll have a very tough time keeping a nice carpet with that amount of light, especially without co2. So I think hobby is right in the regards to the dilemma. Most carpeting plants need more intense light than just a typical stem to keep growing low and tight.
> 
> I've grown HC in a 9.5" tall tank with two 9watt cfl bulbs and I could clearly see a big different how the HC grew on top of a 5" slope (closer to the light) and at the bottom (further from the light)


Yeah, I hope to make the transition as healthy as possible for the first couple of weeks to hopefully have the HC in optimal health so when I go low on C02 and eventually cut down on it, it'll be ok. If not I'll still run CO2 but very low. Perhaps 1 bps or 0.5 bps to see how that goes. I think at that rate the CRS will still be ok so I guess its mainly trial and error. Too bad I don't remember the name of those who said something like "my tank grows HC just perfectly fine with medium light and no CO2". Would love to see how theirs turned out exactly, as in picture-wise : )


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> You have a dilemma! Shrimp don't breed well with high CO2 in the water. And, HC doesn't grow well without high CO2 in the water. (I'm not sure what Downoi requires, other than soft water.) I think most shrimp keepers, who want their shrimp to breed, just do without any plants that have to have good CO2 to grow well.
> 
> I think you will have enough light, with 9-10 watt bulbs, to grow anything, but only if you also use good CO2. Take away the CO2, and you will limit your plant choices. Add more light without more CO2 and you will have algae problems.


Just want to let you know so far so good. No yellowing or die offs (yet). 2-4 bps CO2 and lights on 8 hrs per day : )



freph said:


> Would love to see this tank when it gets setup. I drool over those 12g longs...the dimensions are so nice. Gold luck with your HC carpet!


I linked my journal to my signature. Feel free to comment.


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## dmattbfan5 (Sep 11, 2011)

*Awesome*

I love these 12 gal long setups! I cant wait to see how it turns out. I'm still pretty new to lighting and c02 balance, so pardon the question... Do you think the HC in the center of the tank will suffer from a lack of direct lighting? Just thinking ahead for my own sake. Thanks! Also, how much are those finnex lights?


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

dmattbfan5 said:


> I love these 12 gal long setups! I cant wait to see how it turns out. I'm still pretty new to lighting and c02 balance, so pardon the question... Do you think the HC in the center of the tank will suffer from a lack of direct lighting? Just thinking ahead for my own sake. Thanks! Also, how much are those finnex lights?


Thanks. Not a problem, ask away. We are all here because we have something new to learn everyday don't we? : )

Here is what I observed. Surprisingly, during the emersed growth those HC's that grew closest to the middle (low light) grow best in terms of horizontal growth. For some reason the ones very close to the light grew vertical. Now I am not sure if this will remain true when the tank is filled but we will see. You can subscribe to this thread for updates :biggrin:


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> You have a dilemma! Shrimp don't breed well with high CO2 in the water. And, HC doesn't grow well without high CO2 in the water. (I'm not sure what Downoi requires, other than soft water.) I think most shrimp keepers, who want their shrimp to breed, just do without any plants that have to have good CO2 to grow well.
> 
> I think you will have enough light, with 9-10 watt bulbs, to grow anything, but only if you also use good CO2. Take away the CO2, and you will limit your plant choices. Add more light without more CO2 and you will have algae problems.


Hoppy, my bf showed me these two. I wonder if you would suggest either for my tank. With these fixtures, the light will be sitting about 8"-9" on top of the HC and other plants and about 1 inch from the surface of the water.

The 36" 21W model: http://www.kensfish.com/product2928.html 

The 36: 2x21W model (only using one of the bulbs): http://www.kensfish.com/product2938.html


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Those are T5NO lights, but with what appears to be very good reflectors. I think they will give about half of the PAR that T5HO lights, with good reflectors, give. So, even the one bulb unit, at only 8-9 inches from the substrate, would be very high light, far too much to do without CO2. To use the one bulb light, with no CO2, it would probably need to be about 16-18 inches above the substrate.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Those are T5NO lights, but with what appears to be very good reflectors. I think they will give about half of the PAR that T5HO lights, with good reflectors, give. So, even the one bulb unit, at only 8-9 inches from the substrate, would be very high light, far too much to do without CO2. To use the one bulb light, with no CO2, it would probably need to be about 16-18 inches above the substrate.


Hoppy, if that is the case, I will stick with the ones I have now. Looks like they are doing a good job so far. Why fix a working system right? :biggrin:

I want to get your opinion on using any of those two fixtures on my bf's 20G long. It will also only be a single bulb unit, approx. 12" from the substrate. No CO2. Ground plants would either only be M. Minuta or Glosso (or both) grown in River Sand. Other plants would only be moss, ferns and easy crypts (low-tech tank). Would these lights be ok?

The 30" 14W model: http://www.kensfish.com/product2928.html 

The 30": 2x14W model (only using one of the bulbs): http://www.kensfish.com/product2938.html


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Same answer - that one bulb light will probably need to be 16-18 inches from the substrate if you don't use CO2. With CO2 you would probably have the light 12 inches from the substrate and have high light.


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Same answer - that one bulb light will probably need to be 16-18 inches from the substrate if you don't use CO2. With CO2 you would probably have the light 12 inches from the substrate and have high light.


Thanks for your response Hoppy. So the size of the tank doesn't matter then?


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## MsNemoShrimp (Apr 25, 2011)

Hoppy said:


> Same answer - that one bulb light will probably need to be 16-18 inches from the substrate if you don't use CO2. With CO2 you would probably have the light 12 inches from the substrate and have high light.


Hoppy, thank you so much from giving me very beneficial advice about lighting. Now I know why you are a lighting GURU 

With the two fixture at 13W each side, plants are growing very well, HC is not yellowing so its a good indication of sufficient CO2 and lighting. Most likely won't lower my lighting to 9W each because it might be too low and experience some slower plant growth or HC growing more vertical than horizontal (in which I don't want). Algae is still very minimal and we are well on our 3rd week since it had been filled. 

*Safe to conclude, everything is hunky dory as seems, for lighting? :icon_wink*


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