# a tank that defies some of the common believes



## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

this 90g tank has super low light by wpg standard (2x 36w T8 in a $35 home depot workshop light housing), low current (single Filstar XP2 filter), low CO2, 3bps, and low fert (self mixed all in one solution, dose once or twice a week), and excel, once or twice or week.
plants seem to flourish, red plants are red. 

so, do we really need high lights to grow good plants? With low light, everything seems to be easy to manage.


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## cheeman (Jan 26, 2011)

Looks Nice.


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## junko (Sep 9, 2011)

beautiful!


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## GitMoe (Aug 30, 2010)

Underfiltering a heavily planted tank is common. In a tank with that many plants you barely need a filter. Most plants will grow in less light than we think which I've proven to myself by keeping many species of extra plants tucked away in a storage room closet for weeks with barely any light and surviving just fine. The CO2 and the ferts are really important to pull that off.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

Beautiful tank I do think that most people realize you don't technically need a plug in sun to grow plants. However that being said if you can run very high light and back that up with adequate co2 and ferts. Your growth with be far faster. Not saying that is for everyone just saying there are reasons. However as you stated it is far easier to maintain a tank with lower light levels.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've been squabbling with these HLD folks for the last 20 years:hihi:

Low CO2.....however, you do add Excel.
Still, plenty of CO2 for the light intensity which is all that counts.

Sediment looks deep and is that soil? Good idea if so....since that takes more pressure off dosing the water column.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Must be that magical NYC water, nice and soft.


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## zachary908 (Feb 12, 2011)

Very nice, Darkoon. May I ask what your secret to the R. Wallichi is? I've never had great luck with it.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

next question:

what are the water parameter and what are you dosing? are you dosing any Ca and Mg?


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> I've been squabbling with these HLD folks for the last 20 years:hihi:
> 
> Low CO2.....however, you do add Excel.
> Still, plenty of CO2 for the light intensity which is all that counts.
> ...


doesnt excel only last in water for couple of hours?


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## calebjimz (Oct 28, 2011)

wow that is a beautiful tank:drool: please tell us how you did it!


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

Magical nyc water + some good old Eco-complete. some ca and mg but in very small amount. I think low light is the key here, 32w x 2 of T8 looks bright enough for me.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

darkoon said:


> Magical nyc water..


Isn't that my line?



houseofcards said:


> Must be that magical NYC water, nice and soft.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

Lol, yes quoting houseofcards.


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

darkoon said:


> this 90g tank has super low light by wpg standard (2x 36w T8 in a $35 home depot workshop light housing), low current (single Filstar XP2 filter), low CO2, 3bps, and low fert (self mixed all in one solution, dose once or twice a week), and excel, once or twice or week.
> plants seem to flourish, red plants are red.
> 
> so, do we really need high lights to grow good plants? With low light, everything seems to be easy to manage.



A beautiful tank. This corroborates what you've said
*plants able to grow in extreme low light (4umols of PAR)
*http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/146254-plants-able-grow-extreme-low-light.html


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## gtu2004 (Feb 17, 2010)

does anyone know the parameters for NYC water?

I know that the pipes and stuff affect the GH, KH, etc but still knowing it would be useful.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

gtu2004 said:


> does anyone know the parameters for NYC water?
> 
> I know that the pipes and stuff affect the GH, KH, etc but still knowing it would be useful.


Check out the water report from DEP.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

happi said:


> doesnt excel only last in water for couple of hours?


1/2 life is 11 hours, and 24 in aerobic water, this assumes bacterial and phtoyolsis, plant uptake my reduce this rate, not sure how much, not one has done a study there, but say 1/2 this or most of the photo cycle does not seem that far off.


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## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> 1/2 life is 11 hours, and 24 in aerobic water, this assumes bacterial and phtoyolsis, plant uptake my reduce this rate, not sure how much, not one has done a study there, but say 1/2 this or most of the photo cycle does not seem that far off.


That raises a question for me Tom should I be dosing my excel as soon as my lights go on? As I am dosing a few hours before lights out right now. I never really thought about it going away so quickly.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

TactusMortus said:


> That raises a question for me Tom should I be dosing my excel as soon as my lights go on? As I am dosing a few hours before lights out right now. I never really thought about it going away so quickly.


i hope Tom doesn't mind me answering this, you should try to dose Excel before your lights comes on, it started to work soon as it get mixed in the water. however you can dose any other ferts whenever, iron as works better when added before lights comes on.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

You certainly have the proper ratio of co2/lighting. Now crank the gas up and see what happens!


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## zenche (Feb 9, 2011)

nice tank dude. glad to see the lighting in effect. like the brightness of it, vibrant colors, etc. can you post pic with the lights in'em


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

What is that red plant on the left? Is that Ammania gracilias or something like that?


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

VeeSe said:


> What is that red plant on the left? Is that Ammania gracilias or something like that?


*Alternanthera reineckii *


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## zenche (Feb 9, 2011)

you're just using one of those HD shop light fixtures right? or are you using 2?
also, how long are the chains and how far above to you hang them from your tank?

thanks!


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## Unicorrs (Nov 2, 2011)

what part of NYC do you live? LOL


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

zenche said:


> you're just using one of those HD shop light fixtures right? or are you using 2?
> also, how long are the chains and how far above to you hang them from your tank?
> 
> thanks!


one light fixture with 2x 32w Phillips 6500k T8 bubls, and i don't use the chain, just put it on the rim.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

Unicorrs said:


> what part of NYC do you live? LOL



Bensonhurst, lol


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## zenche (Feb 9, 2011)

darkoon said:


> one light fixture with 2x 32w Phillips 6500k T8 bubls, and i don't use the chain, just put it on the rim.


ah, ic. i'm gonna try hanging mine i think...i don't want to cover the top of the tank with the glass lids....avoid the buildup cuz unlike you new yorkers, our water in chitown is on the harder side.


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

The tank is beautiful. But this ain't low tech IMO. It got CO2 and fert.
Low tech IMO = no CO2, low light, and no fert.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

doncityz said:


> The tank is beautiful. But this ain't low tech IMO. It got CO2 and fert.
> Low tech IMO = no CO2, low light, and no fert.


never said this was a low tech tank. this is a low light, low maintenance (relatively speaking) tank yet with great plant growth.


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## barbarossa4122 (Jan 16, 2010)

Beautiful tank, congrats.


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## doncityz (May 17, 2011)

darkoon said:


> never said this was a low tech tank. this is a low light, low maintenance (relatively speaking) tank yet with great plant growth.


Haha... yeah i had a brainfart.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Nice tank.

It comes to my mind if it is possible to have plants only aquarium?:hihi:


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## Seedreemer (Sep 28, 2008)

Absolutely gorgeous! I'm currently setting up a 75g with less than 1 wpg and am inspired.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Might want to borrow a local club Par METER AND SEE:icon_idea:hihi:
Then you'd have a comparative reference than the fixture itself.

Measure at the tips, 1/2 way down and then around the bottom of each plant species/group.

This will give you a good idea of what the light is.
It's easy to do if you have a club with a meter or can borrow one.

I have measures of light say 40umol for nice growth of most all species, but...........all it takes if for one person to grow the same plant nicely at 30 umol, to lower that level and falsify the claim that 40 umol is the min for "X species."


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## Daximus (Oct 19, 2011)

Holy cow, not sure how I missed this amazing tank! An inspiration for the 90 I'm building! :biggrin:


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

happi said:


> i hope Tom doesn't mind me answering this, you should try to dose Excel before your lights comes on, it started to work soon as it get mixed in the water. however you can dose any other ferts whenever, iron as works better when added before lights comes on.


Depending on what you're using for iron, I'm under the impression it breaks down (precipitates out or otherwise becomes unavailable) fairly fast as well in some circumstances, so it might not hurt for that one to go in early as well. That may only be an issue with EDTA and harder water, but I figured it was worth mentioning.

Nice tank btw.


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## johnny313 (Apr 15, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Might want to borrow a local club Par METER AND SEE:icon_idea:hihi:
> Then you'd have a comparative reference than the fixture itself.
> 
> Measure at the tips, 1/2 way down and then around the bottom of each plant species/group.
> ...


Tom,
can you too much light in a tank? even if the co2 and ferts are of equal value?


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## sepehr (Oct 6, 2010)

Needless to say that's one gorgeous tank. Those light look very bright & intense, can't beileve they're only 2 X 36 watts T8's.

Now if I only could get my high lighted tank to look as good as yours.

Cheers! :thumbsup:


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## punchy (Jul 3, 2011)

It sounds like a very similar setup to my tank, I think sometimes people get too caught up in adding high tech equipment rather than creating a balanced system. This being said I don't disagree with high tech setups, I just think a good equilibrium is way more important


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

i think my setup is still considered as high tech, just not high light.
the previous tank was picture by a real camera with flash. here is another tank, taken by my phone camera no flash, looks a bit dimmer and faded. i wish there is a way to remove that blue background.


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## frenchymasters (Nov 28, 2011)

is this the same type of setup?


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

Yes, you can see that home depot workshop light sitting on the top


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## RSidetrack (Jul 17, 2011)

*sigh* and here I am with 4 48" T8 bulbs - overdriven - dosing with flourish and pressurized CO2 - yet my plants are pathetic, melting, and overall just not good. I think it is time to change choice of substrate - right now it is just fine aquarium gravel.

Your tank looks awesome!!! You have what I wanted mine to look like, but I Have lost all of the colored plants and barely keeping the swords alive.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

one of the keys to use the right bulb, i find 32w 6500k Phillips sold at HD works pretty well.
i don't think substrate will make day and night difference. 4xT8 might be too much light if you're not dosing enough fert and CO2 to keep things balanced.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

^Are you using any other ferts? I'm using play sand and my plants are growing as fast as I can keep up.


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

i dose minimum fert, probably 3-4 ppm of NO3, 0.1 PO4, 10 ppm of K, 0.2 g of CSM+B 0.1ppm of Fe whenver I remember to, per week. I used to do water change every week, i am now trying to see how long things can stay together without water change, i am now in the 3rd week, everything still seems to be going well.


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

Have you tried root tabs? Are you growing crypts and vals with excel? It seems like you have plenty of light, plenty of CO2, and I'm now curious why your plants aren't doing well. I'm assuming of course that "not doing well" isn't the same as "Doesn't look better than Tom Barr's tanks".


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## RSidetrack (Jul 17, 2011)

jccaclimber said:


> Have you tried root tabs? Are you growing crypts and vals with excel? It seems like you have plenty of light, plenty of CO2, and I'm now curious why your plants aren't doing well. I'm assuming of course that "not doing well" isn't the same as "Doesn't look better than Tom Barr's tanks".


Here is my thread on the issue: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/plants/155358-swords-getting-brown-decaying-tips.html

I just put root tabs in yesterday I am hoping for the best. I am just dosing with regular flourish - no excel (which may be the problem). I do not have any crypts (I don't think - I lost track of my plant IDs).


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## RSidetrack (Jul 17, 2011)

darkoon said:


> one of the keys to use the right bulb, i find 32w 6500k Phillips sold at HD works pretty well.
> i don't think substrate will make day and night difference. 4xT8 might be too much light if you're not dosing enough fert and CO2 to keep things balanced.


I actually have 2 6500k phillips and 2 5500 phillips. I may have had too much light for the amount of fert.

I did get the Macro Micro Nutrient Mix from AquariumFertilizer.com. I actually made some root tabs out of it but also dosed. I lost a ton of plants so until I get this right I don't want to add more.


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## astrosag (Sep 3, 2010)

The balance is in the light, co2 and ferts. I'm convinced that you can get similar results (if not the same) with all three of those being on the low side as you would with all three aspects being on the high side. The only difference is rate of growth and perhaps a selective group of plants that may not work. Consider the plants at the very bottom (in tank posted by the OP) with a ton of plant mass above them diminishing the light they receive - they still look good. 

I'm actually amazed by those deep reds that OP tank has. I have no experience with them but surely they alone are enough to convince people that high light isn't necessary. I think the idea that high light is absolutely necessary for red plants to show their colors is an even more entrenched concept.

What I've learned though is that Co2 and Ferts are absolutely necessary if you want growth like the OPs tank. My low-tech tank, though fantastic for its maintenance ease and cost, will never see growth like that.

Low-light = OP tank possible
Low - tech = fail to get OP's tank 

If someone has or knows otherwise, I'm all ears!

IMO, that tank is perfect - amazing.


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## frenchymasters (Nov 28, 2011)

just wondering....how did you start doing this tank? was it an experiment?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

astrosag said:


> The balance is in the light, co2 and ferts. I'm convinced that you can get similar results (if not the same) with all three of those being on the low side as you would with all three aspects being on the high side. The only difference is rate of growth and perhaps a selective group of plants that may not work. Consider the plants at the very bottom (in tank posted by the OP) with a ton of plant mass above them diminishing the light they receive - they still look good.
> 
> I'm actually amazed by those deep reds that OP tank has. I have no experience with them but surely they alone are enough to convince people that high light isn't necessary. I think the idea that high light is absolutely necessary for red plants to show their colors is an even more entrenched concept.
> 
> ...


Agreed.

I've been messing with my tank(120Gal) and seeing the responses to more/less light. I do have to trim more and clean the glass more often with more light, this was also true in my cleint's tanks.

I do have the benefit of more trimming and gardening/less wait time, but I have to do more work. I do not mind the work, but loath cleaning glass more.
With some bulbs, the glass algae is much less pronounced also.


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## Bigga514 (Nov 2, 2011)

darkoon said:


>


Is the attached image what you have on the left ? whats the name please... the lowest leaves are usually olive green on top and pinkish purple below..


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## jccaclimber (Aug 29, 2011)

I'd guess alternanthera reineckii.


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## Bigga514 (Nov 2, 2011)

thanks, thats the one mine looked more like the attached for a long time but there are so many variants/names/ similar plants it was hard to ID till i found this in a search..:









*side note mine no longer look like this and more like my first attachment now...


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## zenche (Feb 9, 2011)

hey darkoon - what's your CO2 setup for this tank? i've a tank + regulator, trying to figure out diffusion for my 75G


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## darkoon (Nov 11, 2010)

zenche said:


> hey darkoon - what's your CO2 setup for this tank? i've a tank + regulator, trying to figure out diffusion for my 75G



i use glass diffusers, co2 requirement for this type of "low light" setup is low too.


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