# Breeding CPD



## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Wanted to share my recent experiences breeding as a sort of journal.


For background, we purchased 7 CPDs several months ago. They were in a 10g tank on their own except snails. The tank was heavily planted with a big moss "tree." Water was just dechlorinated tap. Injected CO2 for the plants, 9 hour photoperiod. Non-heated with temperatures in the low 70s. We found fry in the moss regularly. The way the moss was shaped provided a sort of moss breeding box where the fry were undisturbed by the adults. At the time I was feeding just crushed flake and pellets.












Here is a video of them feeding on baby brine so that you can see the setup:






In only a few months, our 7 fish became 28. Luckily we were already in the process of setting up a 40g, because they were getting cramped in the 10g.


Now, in the 40g, we have CPDs and Clown Killies. Soon we will have shrimp and other fish as well. We moved the tree to the new scape since we liked the design:










I consistently see the fish breeding above the moss, but the few fry we saw free-swimming have been eaten by the other fish since the moss breeder box is no longer present. We wanted to still have some breeding, so we are trying removing the eggs and putting them in another tank until they are a safe size. Some might be killifish egs, but I think it is primarily CPD.



Here are two males sparring around the breeding site. Didn't want to get too close and spook them, sorry for quality: https://i.imgur.com/RxVAEhj.mp4

Here is a photo of an egg in the moss. I don't know which eggs are which. One has white spots in the egg, like this. The others are crystal clear with only minor black flecks throughout.

















I extracted the eggs from the tank using a turkey baster. The white ones were more adhesive, but the clear ones fall right off. I managed to get maybe 10-12 of the clear eggs. We put the eggs in the quarantine tank in a breeder box (to keep the shrimp off of them). Excuse the quality. These eggs are super tiny and are clear, so it is difficult to focus on them. 

Here is a video showing movement inside the egg:
https://i.imgur.com/iUx1iN2.mp4

Here are a couple videos showing non-free swimming fry. You can see the tail and the yolk sac. They look more like tadpoles than fish at this point.
https://i.imgur.com/W1AyjbC.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/7GwijGl.mp4

Hope that they will be able to hatch out and survive in this tank. The tank has been set up for many months and has many plants. Hope there are enough microorganisms to feed on. We will use egg yolk and vinegar eels to help them out.


I will keep updating as time goes. Since these are a result of several females and males over several days, the timing will be staggered. Most sources report a couple of days to hatch and a couple more days to become free swimming. Since we already have at least two that have hatched, we should see some free-swimming soon.


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## stevewb (Nov 10, 2018)

This is really cool. I’ve been hoping to see my CPDs spawn. But this will do for now. Following along


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## SueD (Nov 20, 2010)

Congrats on the spawning. It always adds a little extra excitement to the hobby.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Last night we had a little bad news. Fungus on one egg spread to the others. Being new to this, I didn't understand how it can spread. I have removed all eggs with the fungus and will continue to do so. I don't have a photo, but here is one from the net showing how the fungus looks. Our 12 eggs are now only 4. We will continue to harvest from the tree though. I also might need to get a different breeder box, because the two fry that were previously in the box are now gone. I hope they are swimming around the tank and doing well, but they are too small to spot if they aren't in a known area.


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

That's a bummer. I've read more than once that Neocaridina shrimp will eat fungus'ed eggs or otherwise dead/dying eggs and leave healthy eggs alone. May be worth exploring...


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

KayakJimW said:


> That's a bummer. I've read more than once that Neocaridina shrimp will eat fungus'ed eggs or otherwise dead/dying eggs and leave healthy eggs alone. May be worth exploring...



The tank has one neocaridina and two "amanos" (not real amanos, but similar size). I suspect that the neocaridina would be fine, but the false amanos may be problematic. I will plan to add some eggs to a breeder box in our CRS tank to see how they handle the eggs. I am not sure what changed, but since the first harvest of eggs is seems like there are fewer in the tree. Maybe I am just missing them since they are so hard to spot.


Do the eggs need aeration like shrimp eggs do? Or are they ok in still water? The moss tree is used to diffuse the filter flow, so the back half of the tree gets heavy flow. The front side where I have harvested from gets much less flow.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I dumped the old eggs and scrubbed down the breeder box well before re-harvesting.
It takes some time to find the eggs in the moss, but there are many eggs every time I go hunting. I filled the breeder box up with maybe 25 more little clear eggs. Cannot see any fry or larva. Hoping to see larva in the next day or so, then I imagine they will swim out of the breeder box through the slits since they are so small.
I still need to move them to my shrimp tank. Right now they are in the quarantine tank, which isn't great because I have been dosing Plenaria Zero. I don't know if they will be impacted by that treatment.

I also wanted to note that this is not selective breeding at all. Typically if you are breeding for color you might put the two best adults in a spawning tank to ensure the eggs have the best genetics. Right now I am just indiscriminately pulling out eggs to give them a shot at survival. I anticipate that once the young grow up, the moss will be filled with eggs. I don't think I want to increase numbers long term.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I've certainly hatched some eggs with little to no watermovement over them when I unintentionally moved some eggs on algae/moss, might increase their hatching rates though. I wasn't specifically trying to collect eggs or anything. I usually if trying to make a bunch of them play musical tanks(/buckets) with the parents and then just pull them out of a tank to see how many hatch after.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> I've certainly hatched some eggs with little to no watermovement over them when I unintentionally moved some eggs on algae/moss, might increase their hatching rates though. I wasn't specifically trying to collect eggs or anything. I usually if trying to make a bunch of them play musical tanks(/buckets) with the parents and then just pull them out of a tank to see how many hatch after.



The breeder sits in front of the Fluval C2's flow, but the box obstructs most of the flow. The eggs get a little water movement, but the eggs don't move.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Well, good news last night. I did my daily scavenging in the moss and picked up 4-5 larva in addition to the 2-3 that have hatched out in the breeder box. Now there are more than 30 eggs and some 8-10 larval fry. I was able to get a few decent shots. I think I might have CPD and Clown Killie fry in here because the larvae look different. Some of them have clear "heads" and the others have much more black in them. It may also be due to age. Based on this photo from SKF Aquatics, I think the dark ones are CPD:









My photos are not as impressive as those, but here they are:

































I moved the breeder box to the shrimp tank so that the treatment in the quarantine tank doesn't impact them. I hope that the water parameter difference doesn't hurt them too much. Similar pH, but one is obtained through CO2 while the other is buffered substrate. kH and gH are within 1-2 degrees of each other.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I was able to figure out a much better method of photographing the eggs and fry. Hope some of you will find these interesting. I still cannot confirm 100% that these are CPD and not killies since it is a community tank, but the CPD are more established and in greater numbers so I believe these to be CPD eggs and fry.

They start as clear little eggs.









They begin to grow inside the egg until you can see coloration beginning to develop and can see the folded shape of the larval fry.









Then, the egg hatches, and a clear shell is left behind.









Out of the egg, the yolk sac is still attached and the fry has minimal control over mobility as the swim bladder is not developed.









The fry consumes the egg sac and the features become much more clearly visible.









The fry continues to consume the egg sac, which becomes smaller as the eyes and other features develop more.









After a couple days, the fry begins free swimming, eating tiny food. They are still too small for vinegar eels at this point.









Eventually they grow large enough not to be eaten by the adults and go into the community tank.









They continue to grow rapidly, preying on seed shrimp, copepods, and other small organisms in the aquarium. They readily accept vinegar eels once large enough, and then baby brine. Once they can accept baby brine, they are about large enough to mix in with the adults since the adults will not eat food so large.

I have continued to harvest out eggs and fry from the moss tree and can say that it is a perfect device for breeding in the community tank. Since I am not breeding for profit/sale, the 10-30 eggs and fry I get every day are more than enough. My current concern is that changes in water parameters and unavailability of tiny food is preventing the fry from surviving. I cannot be sure, since they are small enough to escape the breeder box and hide throughout the shrimp tank I am housing them in. I am obtaining paramecium soon to help them along and may also switch to a mesh breeder to allow better monitoring of the fry.


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I just use the smallest size of golden pearls, and occasional rotifers, generally if I see cpd fry and it doesn't get eaten it survives to adulthood.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Wobblebonk said:


> I just use the smallest size of golden pearls, and occasional rotifers, generally if I see cpd fry and it doesn't get eaten it survives to adulthood.


Thanks for weighing in. We are enjoying breeding them. In our 10g it was even better for survival so many survived on their own with 0 intervention. Now I am trying to get a more productive breeding process going so that I can fill out our tank more and also potentially work in trade with the LFS for threadfin rainbows.


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## KayakJimW (Aug 12, 2016)

Amazing pics! Great job


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

KayakJimW said:


> Amazing pics! Great job


Thank you! It is a fun learning experience. I have bred some shrimp, snails, and terrestrial inverts, but this is my first real try at fish.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

A few more updates to fill in the gaps. I was able to catch a fry that is just on the verge of being free swimming. It could swim some, but then would come to rest on the bottom for a while. I also got photos of a very young free-swimming fry to fill in some gaps. I have added the photos to the post above so that they are easier to see going from one stage to the next, so check them out on page 1.

On a side note, I am very happy to see some free swimming fry in the shrimp tank. I wasn't sure if they were surviving the transition or not. I saw at least 2, so it looks like we are on the way to some success. I am picking up Paramecium tonight to use as a first food source for them in the shrimp tank. Here is a photo of a free-swimming fry next to a (not so great) photo of vinegar eels at the same magnification so you can see how the youngest fry won't be able to eat vinegar eels. The white streak in left-middle is a vinegar eel.

















Here is a video of the fry moving its mouth so you can see ho tiny it is: https://imgur.com/tuZJ2Cp
And here is one of the free-swimming fry with one of our smallest CRS shrimplets: https://imgur.com/8nPkhFm


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Excellent photos, thanks for sharing!


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

tamsin said:


> Excellent photos, thanks for sharing!


 Thanks. For anyone wanting to try it themselves, here is what I found works for photos. A smartphone with a clip-on macro lens will be the camera. The lenses work fine but have very narrow focal range. I then use a net or turkey baster to collect what I want to photograph. I then put the specimen on the lid to a deli container. The containers are slightly transparent white, so they create a diffuse background. They also make a very shallow dish so that the specimen can remain in water but still be held within the very narrow focal range. I then put the lid on top of the aquarium glass lid so that I can use the aquarium light as lighting. Works well for being so cheap and easy. It doesn't give the crispness of a proper DSLR with macro lens, but is way better than most of what I have done/seen. This only works for slow moving specimens. I couldn't get it to work well with the free-swimming fry for instance because of how much they move. Hydra, planaria, eggs, plant roots, detritus worms, snails, pods, fungus, algae, seed shrimp, etc are all great using this method.

This is the type of lid:


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

We have at least 3 free swimming fry. Potentially many more since the tank is filled with moss. I picked up the paramecium for them on Friday.










Here are a couple clips of the paramecium and of the fry eating paramecium. One of the clips even shows a copepod for scale.
https://i.imgur.com/hURSMa0l.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/NV8HGBXl.mp4
https://i.imgur.com/0ccvNxul.mp4

I started 4 paramecium cultures, which is overkill for this small breeding operation. I also seeded the grow-out tank with some for the fry to graze on.
I also am modifying my vinegar eel cultures to allow easier small harvests for fry as they grow, using the method with the Corona bottles and filter floss.

I am hoping that the food source will increase survival rates some and I will soon have 10-20 fry swimming around. I don't need many more for our display tank, but would gladly use them in trade with other hobbyists and stores to get some other livestock.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Love threads like this where there are great photos to help illustrate what's going on.

While CPDs are obviously common, I'm not sure I've seen much on the forum beyond initial hatching and then again once they're starting to color up. This entire process is fun to watch.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

somewhatshocked said:


> Love threads like this where there are great photos to help illustrate what's going on.
> 
> While CPDs are obviously common, I'm not sure I've seen much on the forum beyond initial hatching and then again once they're starting to color up. This entire process is fun to watch.



Glad you enjoy. I am hoping to make a photo box. Basically a narrow breeder box style container but narrow depth so that I can keep them in focus for macro shots.


Also a side bit of anecdotal breeding experience. It feels like the egg laying has slowed down considerably since I stopped hatching out baby brine for about a week. Not sure if it is just a bias, but it definitely feels like I am getting fewer eggs each day. I hatched out a batch yesterday though and fed that yesterday and today to see if I can increase the number of eggs. 



I still believe that my process transferring from a non-buffered tank with pretty neutral parameters to my CRS tank may be hurting my hatch rates. If I were trying to breed in bigger numbers I would link the water in the breeding tank to the grow out tank so there is no water parameter transition. I still am getting maybe 10-15 eggs per day and a few larval fry. I wish I could know how many are swimming around in the grow out tank, but they are so hard to spot at this size.


Here is a short video showing the community breeding tank in the middle of a big live brine feeding. Most of what looks like bubbles is actually brine.

https://i.imgur.com/bk8WpUF.mp4


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

Great stuff mate!
Excellent resource to have for those of us with CPD, with any luck breeding these guys will be possible now I have a vague idea in which direction to go.

A question unrelated to breeding. Newly added CPD's, do they struggle to feel comfortable and feed? Mine are 4 days in I believe, barely seen them since they were put in and most definitely cannot confirm they are eating. Advise on how to get them out and feeding? 
Guess is they were previously fed BBS, but even if I fed BBS right now, without seeing the fish there is no way I could say they are eating...


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Jamo33 said:


> Great stuff mate!
> Excellent resource to have for those of us with CPD, with any luck breeding these guys will be possible now I have a vague idea in which direction to go.
> 
> A question unrelated to breeding. Newly added CPD's, do they struggle to feel comfortable and feed? Mine are 4 days in I believe, barely seen them since they were put in and most definitely cannot confirm they are eating. Advise on how to get them out and feeding?
> Guess is they were previously fed BBS, but even if I fed BBS right now, without seeing the fish there is no way I could say they are eating...



Glad to provide a little more information to the hobby.


Regarding your question, I only have about 6 months experience with them, but here is what I noticed. I added 7 into a planted 10g. They always hid in the back corner behind moss and between stem plants. The only time I could get them to come out is if I sat perfectly still and fed BBS. If I moved to get a photo, they all would hide. I know for a fact that the LFS fed them flake food before I bought them, so the live food was definitely an upgrade. They seem to dislike high light, which is why they would swim under moss. Even though I rarely saw them come out, they began breeding until we had 28. I take that to mean that my husbandry was decent and the parameters were good. Over time their color got better and they became slightly more brave.



I moved them into a 40g and noticed the same behavior. Constantly hiding under some hardscape in a very dense school. Eventually I added some clown killies, which are much more brave and tend to be top-dwellers. It worked perfectly as a dither fish to bring out the CPDs more. They still stay in the very back, but out in the open where they can be viewed. I believe they stay in the back because it is where the light is the lowest in my tank. Based on my brief experience, I would definitely recommend some dither fish. I doubt yours are sick or having problems with your food. Just make sure the food is appropriately sized and give them time. If you can't add dither fish, maybe look at adding some floating plants to give areas of shade.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

ohaple said:


> Jamo33 said:
> 
> 
> > Great stuff mate!
> ...


Much appreciated mate. Okay well it has been 5ish days, of the 5 fish I have only ever seen 2 out in the open at any given time. Honestly I could only have 2 left they are that hidden, but I know my water is fine and the fish looked healthy when I got them so I'm convinced they are all alive. 
I have no live foods, whilst I wish I did, currently I do not and unless I find somewhere to hatch BBS I doubt I'll get any....but it's possible I could really force a location. 
I feed flake, crushed very very finely and golden Pearl's (cannot tell if these are actually still too big for the CPDs) but they ignored them the first time I tried. 
I feel like I am failing these fish right now and other than dumping loads of foods into the tank, I don't know how I will confirm they have access to foods. Very difficult fish for my tank right now.
Dither fish, I was considering a school of kubotai, which would put me at or over max capacity of this tank sadly. Hopefully that would work, but I need time for the tank to mature a bit more before adding more inhabitants.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Jamo33 said:


> Much appreciated mate. Okay well it has been 5ish days, of the 5 fish I have only ever seen 2 out in the open at any given time. Honestly I could only have 2 left they are that hidden, but I know my water is fine and the fish looked healthy when I got them so I'm convinced they are all alive.
> I have no live foods, whilst I wish I did, currently I do not and unless I find somewhere to hatch BBS I doubt I'll get any....but it's possible I could really force a location.
> I feed flake, crushed very very finely and golden Pearl's (cannot tell if these are actually still too big for the CPDs) but they ignored them the first time I tried.
> I feel like I am failing these fish right now and other than dumping loads of foods into the tank, I don't know how I will confirm they have access to foods. Very difficult fish for my tank right now.
> Dither fish, I was considering a school of kubotai, which would put me at or over max capacity of this tank sadly. Hopefully that would work, but I need time for the tank to mature a bit more before adding more inhabitants.



Maybe dim the lights at feeding time. You may be able to catch them coming out. It also just takes time. I was shocked to see one of mine come nip the turkey baster when I was removing some old food. In the past they would hide in the furthest corner when I did maintenance. The food you have been feeding is definitely small enough. I would be more worried about over feeding and causing an ammonia spike. Besides live food, crushed flake has been my favorite since it stays suspended for a pretty long time. Shut off the filter, sprinkle it on top of the water, and let bits slowly sink over 15-30 minutes. I have read that in nature they usually eat zooplankton, algae, and small inverts. If your tank is aged a bit, they are likely picking at pods and algae and other natural sources.


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## Jamo33 (Feb 18, 2014)

@ohaple 
Well I can only spot two...been looking for a while now and whilst this tank is densely planted and hard to see into, I thought I would at the vest least see others in hiding. 
Sadly, looking at the two I can, they look emaciated and probably not able to make it. Who knows, medication may bring them around and the others may still be alive. But not looking good right now...bummer.
Will try your feeding techniques, see what happens!


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Jamo33 said:


> @*ohaple*
> Well I can only spot two...been looking for a while now and whilst this tank is densely planted and hard to see into, I thought I would at the vest least see others in hiding.
> Sadly, looking at the two I can, they look emaciated and probably not able to make it. Who knows, medication may bring them around and the others may still be alive. But not looking good right now...bummer.
> Will try your feeding techniques, see what happens!



If they are looking thin they may be sick. Unfortunately I only have experience dealing with and treating ick. Hopefully someone else can chime in to assist you.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

An update on breeding. Worms seem to be harming the fry. I don't know what type of worms they are but they crawl up to the fry and wrap around them. It does not appear that the worms are getting inside the fry or are feeding on them, just bothering them by wrapping them up. I pulled two larval fry out of the moss last night. Both had a worm. I used a needle to gently pull the worm up and away from the fry. I discarded the worms and put the fry into the grow out tank.

Can anyone ID the worms? They are segmented, pinkish white, and thread-like. They look like detritus worms based on my searches, but why would they be constricting fry? Sometimes I find them in tangles, with several worms wrapped into a ball. Does anyone have similar experience?

We don't overfeed the tank, but food will sometimes settle in the moss, where it then provides plenty of food for seed shrimp and these worms. I hope that this is remedied somewhat by the shrimp we are working to cultivate.











Here is a video showing a fry struggling and a tangle of worms: https://i.imgur.com/eqKZPeY.mp4
And other video of the other fry struggling against two worms: https://i.imgur.com/5GbIWsi.mp4

Not to worry, I got them both free and into the grow out just fine. I hope it didn't stress them too much.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

New setup for these fry. I noticed the poor survival rate in the shrimp tank and wanted to do a better job. I got a medium plastic bug catcher style enclosure to put the eggs and fry in instead. I added a couple floating plants to make it easy to manage but still provide a place for them to hide and to absorb what little nitrates will be in here. It is unfiltered. I counted 35 eggs and 6 fry, two of which are free swimming. I seeded the container with paramecium, seed shrimp, and pods to give them food to eat. Hoping this will be sufficient to raise them up until they are too large to be eaten by the adults in the community tank. I am using water from the community tank where the eggs were laid so that they have no parameter transition.









Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Looks like Hydra and they can be dangerous to very small baby fish if I remember correctly. 

Great job on getting those guys to survive so far. I kind of wanted to see if mine would but I just let them be, dont have time to play around with different tanks and what not.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Quint said:


> Looks like Hydra and they can be dangerous to very small baby fish if I remember correctly.
> 
> Great job on getting those guys to survive so far. I kind of wanted to see if mine would but I just let them be, dont have time to play around with different tanks and what not.



I am fairly certain that it is not hydra. Hydra typically attach their foot to a surface and then use a star of tentacles to grab their prey. I have had hydra before, and these looks significantly different. These are straight segmented worms without the star.


In any event, I have been keeping them out of the fry tank and keep harvesting eggs and fry. Last night I grabbed about 40 eggs from the moss and a couple fry. Now in the hatchery, we have maybe 40-50 eggs and 6-8 fry. At least one is free swimming. I continue to feed paramecium to the hatchery.













When I was harvesting last night I noticed that I got a particularly good set of eggs and was able to get four stages of the life cycle in one shot. Young egg, old egg, new larval fry, and older larval fry. Pretty neat to see them all together for size.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

That's interesting, wonder what it is? Congrats on the big harvest and GL. That's really cool


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## stevewb (Nov 10, 2018)

This thread has me checking my CPD tank every dang day for eggs n such. I don’t get jealous often, but here i stand


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

stevewb said:


> This thread has me checking my CPD tank every dang day for eggs n such. I don’t get jealous often, but here i stand



The eggs are pretty hard to spot, but you get better at it over time. Right away they look like little bubbles that have settled on the plants. Once I see one egg, I suck up the whole area and usually get 5-8 more. I have also done it by blindly sucking up the whole top of the moss, and that worked well too but took more time.


As of this morning a bunch of the eggs had hatched. I think I have about 15-20 larval fry now. Still just the one free-swimming.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

We may have some clown killifish in with the CPD fry now. I haven't bred them before so I cannot be sure. There are 3 fry that have very bold dark eyes but barely any coloration on the rest of their body. It is not reflected in this photo well, but when looking in the fry tank, you can only spot them by their big eyes while the CPD fry have spotted grey bodies. We will see how it goes as they grow some. The suspected killifish is the one with the yellowish coloration.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Tons of fry are hatching. This isn't a great photo, but it shows how the fry are sitting around in the grow out tank. I culled one that had a severely bent back, but the rest appear to be alive and healthy. When I stir the water they all swim around before settling back on the bottom. At least 3 are free swimming. Copying the large version of the photo below since the fry are difficult to see. I think I count ~30 just from a quick count. This is less than half of the grow out container. There are probably another 20 eggs and another 30 fry in the other half. Since I am not filtering this container right now I am trying to be very careful about feeding. They get 5ml of paramecium water each day. I am concerned that the paramecium culture has a smell to it, which I read is usually because the paramecium have not populated enough to eat enough bacteria. I am concerned the paramecium culture has ammonia, so I am careful to feed small amounts. I also am adding a cup of water each day and also doing a small water change. Hopefully the floating plants mitigate any other nitrogen.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I collected the eggs over several days, so the fry are staggered. We have tons of free-swimming fry at this point. Feeding paramecium frequently to keep them going. So far it appears that we have near 100% survival rates. I hope to keep that number up as time goes. I have stopped harvesting for now since we have near 100 fry and eggs in the grow out container. I may see if any local hobbyists want to get some eggs from me. The fry that hatch make good live food for the adults, but I would also enjoy seeing others raise up some fry.










As a side point, the eggs and fry that we put in the shrimp tank I believe are all dead. I think water parameters were too big of a shock and food may have been too scarce. We also put 5-10 eggs in the quarantine tank as an experiment, and I just noticed a fairly large fry swimming around this weekend, so at least one survivor out of that group. I added the eggs to that tank to see whether or not my monster shrimp (false amanos) would eat fertilized eggs. They may have eaten some, but at least one survived. Here is a shot of the survivor.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Haha like that "monster shrimp" aka false amano. Those things get big don't they. You should be supplying the LFS's with CPDs with that survival rate.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Quint said:


> Haha like that "monster shrimp" aka false amano. Those things get big don't they. You should be supplying the LFS's with CPDs with that survival rate.



I plan to sell most of these off once I raise them up some. Unfortunately the LFS in my area will only do store credit at about 1/5 retail pricing. If I sell to hobbyists I can get better rates and also save the hobbyists some money, cut out the middle man.



The threadfin rainbows we have in our 10g quarantine are about to be done with quarantine. When they are, we will probably move the fry into that tank. Right now they are in an unfiltered 1/2 gallon. It works fine while they are so tiny, but they will quickly exceed the load that can handle. I keep meaning to tear down the 10g we use for quarantine, but we are constantly using it.


These fry are still getting paramecium daily. Instead of multiple feedings, which is usually recommended for fry, I am just overfeeding paramecium. Since they survive in the fresh water they do not foul the water and it allows the fry to graze over many hours.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I started discussing this with some hobbyists in my area, and it turns out there is a lot of interest in CPD eggs and young fry. As a result, I am rehoming many of the fry I have been raising up. I still have ~50. They are feeding well on paramecium and I have not noticed deaths yet.

As an experiment early on in this breeding endeavor I put a batch of eggs in with my false amanos and neos to see if they would eat the eggs or fry. Not sure if they ate some, but at least two fry survived and are large enough to transfer into the community tank.

Here is part of a batch that I am rehoming:


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## chayos00 (Sep 22, 2013)

ohaple said:


> I started discussing this with some hobbyists in my area, and it turns out there is a lot of interest in CPD eggs and young fry. As a result, I am rehoming many of the fry I have been raising up. I still have ~50. They are feeding well on paramecium and I have not noticed deaths yet.
> 
> As an experiment early on in this breeding endeavor I put a batch of eggs in with my false amanos and neos to see if they would eat the eggs or fry. Not sure if they ate some, but at least two fry survived and are large enough to transfer into the community tank.
> 
> Here is part of a batch that I am rehoming:


At the local fish club meeting yesterday, there was some live foods for fry that was up for auction and I wondered what I was needing the paramecium for and just reading this reminded me of why I was wanting it again LOL


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Thats a really cool picture by the way, has pretty much every stage of the early fry in one pic. 

Congrats and GL going forward, looks like ya have it dialed in.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Quint said:


> Thats a really cool picture by the way, has pretty much every stage of the early fry in one pic.
> 
> Congrats and GL going forward, looks like ya have it dialed in.



Thank you! I think I have the breeding pretty well dialed in (for a community tank) but raising them up is still an open question. This is as far as I have taken it with lots of intervention. All of my grown-up fry were raised up without my help just by having a mature planted tank. There are still plenty of opportunities for me to make a mistake that would kill all of the fry.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I did a little investigation of fry deaths to see how things are going. I found only two dead fry out of the ~60 that are in the tank and the ~40 that I traded to another hobbyist. I am very happy with that rate. I expected to be closer to 50/50.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Had a bit of a success with my Chopra Danios last year, got a small hatch to survive large enough to move into my stocktank, outdoor pond where most of them made it through last winter.

Here's a video of them about 4 days after they hatched out..


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

GrampsGrunge said:


> Had a bit of a success with my Chopra Danios last year, got a small hatch to survive large enough to move into my stocktank, outdoor pond where most of them made it through last winter.
> 
> Here's a video of them about 4 days after they hatched out..
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlEMiIsEJSQ



Nice video, looks like you did well with them.




Almost had a problem this morning. I typically do a 30% change each night and feed live food 2x per day. Last night I forgot to do the water change. This morning the top was oily looking, which concerns me that there will be an O2 deficiency without a bubbler or filter. I used the paper towel trick to get the slime off and then did my normal change. Looks like everyone is fine, but it reminded me of how fragile they can be. I want to move them into the 10g in a large breeder box soon to give them some real filtration and a little flow. The harder thing will be feeding live food in appropriate quantities. In the small unfiltered tank, I can be pretty sure that whatever food I add will be available to them. In a breeder box the food will get distributed around the tank and it will be more difficult for them to feed. I try to overfeed the paramecium some to give them a constant food source. As live food they do not foul the water until eaten.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

@ohaple since you have good luck breeding these guys I wanted to ask about the adults behavior. 

I have about 8-10 adults in my 40B. I have noticed the males (about 4 or so) do there normal sparring/little nipping/swirl dance with one another, they dont seem to chase the females just kind of flash at them and seem to wait for the females to come over to there location once they have figured out who the dominant male is for the next 10min or so. 

The thing I find interesting is the females. I have one larger female who seems to be the dominant female in the roost. She will in a way not necessarily heard, but nip at and push around the females. Not bad or anything, its somewhat subtle but its obvious she is the queen of the females. When they haphazard shoal together she usually leads the pack in a way. 

Its kind of a odd dynamic from these little guys. Was curious if you experienced anything similar with yours.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

I haven't seen anything like that in my school. Typically what I see for breeding behavior is one female getting set up near the moss. Two males will then come over and display their fins. Eventually one of them leaves and the female breeds with the remaining male.

I haven't noticed nipping or pushing at all, except by accident when they get spooked. As far as any dominance behavior, I only notice one or two of the biggest brightest males leading the school consistently.

I like keeping this fish more in larger schools. When we only had 7 they were much more timid. Now that we have about 30 in the 40g, they are much more brave.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Thanks. I may only have 9-10 or so but they are not timid, heck even when doing water changes I have to be careful to not suck them up. Probably the chance to get detrius worms out weighs the fear of god, they love those things.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Quint said:


> Thanks. I may only have 9-10 or so but they are not timid, heck even when doing water changes I have to be careful to not suck them up. Probably the chance to get detrius worms out weighs the fear of god, they love those things.



Mine love them too. I actually use them as a supplemental food source. When I harvest eggs out of the moss I get a ton of little pods, seed shrimp, detritus worms, and unfertilized eggs. I dump those all right where the fish swim and they go crazy. I have mostly stopped hatching out brine shrimp though. Instead I got a 160 cube ice tray and a jar of baby brine (not dried or frozen). I filled the trays with one feeding worth of baby brine and then the rest with water. Froze them and now feed one of those cubes each day. $11 for 160 days of frozen baby brine is well worth it to me compared to hatching live, even though they aren't quite as nutritious.


Now my daily feeding schedule includes a morning feeding of Bug Bites, an evening feeding of frozen baby brine, and a third feeding of some easy live food. Production doesn't seem like it has slowed down, but I prefer how live baby brine stay in the water column instead of sinking like the frozen ones do. Fluval Bug Bites are the perfect size for feeding these guys. I know many reviews complain about the size, but it is great for these small fish.

I also updated my phone and have been playing with using it for some photos. Here is a little sample of the CPD, including a super slow motion clip (960fps):

























That is a young seed shrimp next to the egg here.









Here is the slow-motion:
https://i.imgur.com/SmcMLOU.mp4


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

The last week has been pretty uneventful for the CPD breeding. I have stopped harvesting eggs completely since I already have too many fry. The fry I do have are doing well. Still in an unfiltered tank, just relying on water changes and the floating plants. I have started adding vinegar eels in addition to the paramecium. No more deaths that I can see.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Uneventful is a good thing sometimes. Like I say at work, if its exciting theres probably something wrong going on that ya dont want to deal with. 

Sounds like you need some more setups ........ good excuse anyway.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Quint said:


> Uneventful is a good thing sometimes. Like I say at work, if its exciting theres probably something wrong going on that ya dont want to deal with.
> 
> Sounds like you need some more setups ........ good excuse anyway.



Agree, no news is good news.


We are actually working on downsizing our tanks. My wife and I like animals of all types, so we have a bit of a zoo at home. A cat, 3 guinea pigs, 4 aquariums (not including live food and fry tanks), 5 isopod colonies, two praying mantises, and a green banana roach colony. We are planning on adding a crested gecko and a dog in the next 6 months as well. I really only want to have 3 tanks to keep the overall time commitment low (community tank, shrimp tank, work tank).


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## brianp603 (Nov 18, 2017)

should try leaving eggs in the main tank until they hatch. I had been syphoning all the fry out of my 20g once they lost their yolk sacs and putting them into their own tank. by that point they were already big enough to eat baby brine and crushed flakes(if theyd accept this). was plenty of tiny micro organisms in the 20 for them to eat before growing and being able to eat brine. definitely will have the parents catch some until then but I only ever lost a few fry out of a couple hundred after I moved them to their own tanks at that point. 
takes a lot of time no matter how you want to do it. had a lot going on late last summer into fall. gave up on saving the babies and then the 4 adults I had decided to start leaving them alone for a change for whatever reason. not sure if theyre just getting old and less ambitious or what. between the 4 parents and all the fry I had somewhere between120-150 cpds in that little 20 at one point last winter.was a bit too much . been slowly unloading them at my lfs for credit and giving to friends


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

@ohaple man I havnt had preying mantis since I was a little kid. We had a big ol huge female that lived in the house plant in our little living room. Brother and I would catch bugs and hand feed her.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

brianp603 said:


> should try leaving eggs in the main tank until they hatch. I had been syphoning all the fry out of my 20g once they lost their yolk sacs and putting them into their own tank. by that point they were already big enough to eat baby brine and crushed flakes(if theyd accept this). was plenty of tiny micro organisms in the 20 for them to eat before growing and being able to eat brine. definitely will have the parents catch some until then but I only ever lost a few fry out of a couple hundred after I moved them to their own tanks at that point.
> takes a lot of time no matter how you want to do it. had a lot going on late last summer into fall. gave up on saving the babies and then the 4 adults I had decided to start leaving them alone for a change for whatever reason. not sure if theyre just getting old and less ambitious or what. between the 4 parents and all the fry I had somewhere between120-150 cpds in that little 20 at one point last winter.was a bit too much . been slowly unloading them at my lfs for credit and giving to friends



That is what we did in the past. Unfortunately in this tank, we have only seen one fry living alongside the adults. In this tank hundreds of fry have hatched out, swam out of the moss, and been eaten. 


@Quint we kept several exotic species of mantises. Our two living mantises are female ghost mantises. We previously kept a male giant rainforest mantis and a male peacock mantis, but they passed away a few months ago. They are fascinating creatures and are pretty low maintenance as pets. I mist them daily and feed once or twice a week. They actually match up with the aquarium hobby pretty closely. A bioactive vivarium like what we have has soil, plants, springtails, isopods, and mantises. The mantises are kind of like bettas in a lot of ways. Very fun to watch and very charismatic, but don't really play well with others. The isopods are kind of like the snails and the springtails are kind of like the shrimp.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Another week has passed and almost all of the fry are alive, but I am surprised at how slow they seem to be growing. Maybe I am not providing sufficient food. I am worried about over-feeding without filtration though. I think I will plan to move them to the quarantine tank this week once we move out the other fish so that they can have proper filtration and I can worry less about over-feeding. They still get vinegar eels and paramecium every day.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

If they are all still alive bet they are doing ok. Not sure how fast they should grow but from raising other kinds of fish there are stages where they seem to take forever then bam they are at the next stage.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Bad news over the weekend. I noticed many of the fry had died the other day, confirming what I already suspected, they need more proper filtration. I didn't want to add them into the quarantine tank with our new killies for fear of getting eaten, so I was holding off. Unfortunately I do not have a proper mesh breeder box and the plastic ones are useless for fry this small. So I went ahead and added them into quarantine, using a DIY mesh breeder made from a plastic/mesh coffee filter that I usually use for straining brine shrimp. They are now in the quarantine tank with proper cycled filtration and low flow. Hoping I don't lose any more. One of them is easily 3x the size of the others, even though they were all harvested in the same week. It seems to have a little something white on one of its fins but it is so small that it is difficult to tell.


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## Mostlydave (Jan 12, 2012)

Your pictures are amazing!! I hope the fry make it! I love CPDs, but I have a hard time finding them in my area.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Mostlydave said:


> Your pictures are amazing!! I hope the fry make it! I love CPDs, but I have a hard time finding them in my area.


Since moving them into the filtered tank no other deaths have occurred. Whatever white spots the largest fry had have also gone away.


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## Mostlydave (Jan 12, 2012)

That's good news! Are you selling any of your CPD you are raising?


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

Mostlydave said:


> That's good news! Are you selling any of your CPD you are raising?



I sold a bunch of young fry to some people locally, but have not yet sold juveniles or adults. I will probably sell a handful to local fish hobbyists, but I don't plan to keep an active breeding operation. This was more of an experiment to learn about their breeding some more. The 10-20 fry left are the last ones I will intentionally raise for CPDs. I am considering doing this same thing with clown killies though. We recently got a few females and they look like they are about to pop. We added our best male into quarantine with them yesterday. If I see eggs I will probably harvest them and make a thread just like this one, but for clown killies. Maybe eventually I will do threadfin rainbows as well.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

ohaple said:


> Maybe eventually I will do threadfin rainbows as well.



Just picked up some more threadfins yesterday (managed to get 2M 1F awhile ago and I think I have another 4M 2F). Beautiful fish! I see them displaying and put a mop in but not seen any eggs yet. The new males are bigger so I wonder if the original trio aren't mature enough yet. Be interested in how you get on if you do try breeding them.


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## ohaple (Nov 30, 2018)

tamsin said:


> Just picked up some more threadfins yesterday (managed to get 2M 1F awhile ago and I think I have another 4M 2F). Beautiful fish! I see them displaying and put a mop in but not seen any eggs yet. The new males are bigger so I wonder if the original trio aren't mature enough yet. Be interested in how you get on if you do try breeding them.


I am still trying to figure out our gender distribution for them. The LFS sells them in male/female pairs, which is awesome since most places only sell males. If anyone is trying to get females, the store is Aqua Imports. They sell online as well. That said, the stock was young when we bought so there is a high likelihood that some of our females are actually just young males. They are meant to be our largest fish in the tank, so I want fewer of them comparatively, but breeding would still be fun. We are getting a dog here soon so I am trying to limit some of my fish and invert projects to free up time to work with the dog.


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