# RCS 20G Long! Starting slow this time.



## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

So my tank's been empty besides 2 otos for about 3 months now so I decided to try it all up again. Definitely not as green as it used to be, especially with the lack of water changes I did and the buildup of algae. But it is getting better!


Substrate:
Turface Pro Leauge

I actually know very little about the plants I have. I got them from a local awhile ago when I wasn't really focused on planted tanks I do know that I have:
Riccia
Java Moss
Mini X-Mas Moss
Hydrocotyle sp. Japan
Crypt Wendtii 

Decorations:
Driftwood

Lighting: 
DIY CFL light hood
Two 20w 6500k Daylight CFL's 7-7 1/2 hours a day

Heater:
Marineland 200w

Filtration: 
Sunsun HW-302 

Fauna:
RCS

Water Params:
pH: 6.6
Temp: 76F


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Some pictures of "before"/"afters"
When it was a fish tank; did have some live plants:

























Last week: 









Now: 









Trying to get the plants to fill in and waiting on a few driftwood pieces!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Waiting to see the Rilis and... Tangerine Tigers!


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## dinosaurodon (Jun 1, 2011)

Geniusdudekiran said:


> Waiting to see the Rilis and... Tangerine Tigers!


Remember dinosaurodon when you breed the TTs lol


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## Chikorita (Dec 16, 2007)

Or you could have me send the TTs to Jimko in return for Jinko's red rillis


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Got my shrimp today. Wasn't what I ordered... Didn't get red rilis:/ I'll post up pics soon of what the seller sent me.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Here's the tank with the new driftwood pieces (thanks Robert H!). I will probably be re-arranging things again soon. 









And now the shrimp!
Amanos:









Oooo blurry "not what I ordered" shrimp

















Do I see a saddle?:O

















Some more of the "not what I ordered" shrimp

















Yes, to my surprise, the seller was MORE than generous. I thank this seller (you know who you are) so much for the great shrimp!


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Looks like you got blue pearls? Is that right?

Also, what are the water parameters? You'll want them to be inline with CRS parameters for the TT's. Namely ph under 7, kh 1 or less, gh 4-6.

The tank looks good!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Seller told me they're blue rili! 

I'll update params on OP.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

It's very possible that they are blue rilis and they have not completely colored up with the patterns yet... Also, from what I understand, only the really (no pun intended) high grade blue rilis exhibit really (again, lol) visible patterning.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Geniusdudekiran said:


> It's very possible that they are blue rilis and they have not completely colored up with the patterns yet... Also, from what I understand, only the really (no pun intended) high grade blue rilis exhibit really (again, lol) visible patterning.


I hope so! I just saw a guy that bought blues from the same source and they had some red spots on them, but they had bred a couple times so I guess it came back through the offspring.?


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

It doesn't necessarily come back with breeding since you never lost it in the first place, they're just stressed from shipping which is why they lost their color. It's just selective breeding to promote the redness.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Glad you ended up with more expensive shrimp! John had this same problem but his F1 generation is starting to look like actual rili's instead of blue pearls.

Get some MTS to mix up that sand or you'll end up with dead spots! Also, are you planning on tying anything to the DW? Looks awfully bare like that in the back right corner !

End up using tap water or did you get an RO unit? What's your TDS and what not.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

My blues are molting already. Good sign?


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Depends. If your gh is too low then no. They won't have enough hardness to create their shells. TEST IT BRO!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I knoooow I was supposed to go to Petco today after school, but my mom went to the ER, so I had to go there. By the time I left, I was worried that the shrimp were sitting outside my house in the cold so I thought I could put it off for 1 more day:/


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Sorry to hear about the ER. How old are you bro?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Thanks, it was unexpected, but she's gonna have surgery within this week:/ and 17.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Trust me. I know what it's like to go through. I'm almost 16


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

How long have you been "shrimping?" haha I've been in the aquatic field since I was like 14, but just changed to shrimp in a heartbeat after joining TPT. I do miss my Kuhli Loaches though:/


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

My first tank of RCS was around when I was 10. Didn't know wth I was doing. Then got into shrimp again during August of last year. You can see it from the start date of my journal. First goldfish tank was when I was 7. Haha don't miss them at all.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Haha yeah, I kept some random fish when I was younger too. Also kept some RCS like last year-ish but didn't really have thought to breed them. I have actually bred White Cloud Minnows a year or two ago, but they aren't that hard to breed I'm super nervous about the TT's though! Haha


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

You better get your parameters ready for them.... Too muh to lose! Haha I got 21 in my 11,4 and they're doing fine. A really nice shade of orange now.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

What are your water parameter?:O

I saw your journal and it's rilis and TT's too, so I should probably be asking you about your setup! haha


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Haha I'm going through a phase right now. Doing 5% water changes daily to battle bacterial infections. But will post them once things settle out.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

3 dead rili and 3 dead amano today when I woke up.. Tested everything and pH dropped to 6.0-6.3ish. I removed all the other shrimp. Only explanation I can come up with is the driftwood tannins made the pH drop too rapidly? I don't know.. But as of now, the tank has no shrimp. Forsure going to petco/smart for the hardness test. I found the majority of the remaining shrimp near the surface holding on to plants/etc. They will not be going back in this tank until I know what went wrong.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

All the parameters bro... What ferts and co2 are you running? DW can allow the ph to drop that much especially when its still new. How much was your ph before it dropped to 6-6.3?


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

Next time try presoaking your DW in a bucket of hydrogen peroxide and water for a few weeks before putting it in. No tannins...no nasty stuff on the wood after the soaking..


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Ph was 6.6 prior to dw. I have the shrimp in a container with the clump of riccia from my 10g with an air pump on low.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Also just flourish. I do have excel but im not using it. no co2


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

whats your gh and kh? need to know those if you're gonna keep TT's or other caridina's.. the blue rili's will be fine in caridina parameters. the ph drop shouldn't have been the cause as it wasn't instant and that ph is fine.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Yes i'm getting test strips on the home from schoool today.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

How much have you been dosing? I use half dose in my shrimp tanks...


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

1.25mL of flourish weekly. Gonna check ammonia/nitrite/nitrates rightnow.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Wow.. I'm going through a mini cycle.. Ammonia and nitrite spikes were what caused the deaths. I feel like I just started keeping fish making this mistake.. Should've known after 2 years of having an aquarium to check these before I put them in.. 

The API test kit says my gH and kH are low. They raise in increments of 30 and 40 so I don't know what exact number although the color is basically the color for "0" on the label. Anyone else use these strips?


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Dude 5 amanos and (how many?) rilis is not going to cause any sort of cycling, especially that quickly. Frankly, the danger posed by ammonia right now in the container with the airstone and Riccia is much greater than that from this tank.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I know, it doesn't make sense to me. Before I introduced the shrimp in the tank, there was NOTHING in there except sand, plants, and the driftwood which I put in a couple hours beforehand, hence there must not have been an ammonia source.? I tested my tap and there's no ammonia. So again, I'm thinking it must be something leaching from the driftwood? How do I get rid of any organic compounds that might be causing the mini-cycle on the driftwood? Hydrogen Peroxide dip then boil 1 more time?


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

What is the substrate? And I'd take the wood out altogether for now, at least.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Petco black sand. And yeah, i did that and it's in a tub of water. I'm gonna test the water in 30 minutes to see if that's the source. I'm getting craazy massive ammonia/nitrite/nitrate readings. And I did like a 30% water change this morning after I took the shrimp out.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

What was in the tank before the shrimp?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Fish. That was like 3-4 weeks ago though. Since then it's been nothing but empty with plants. Then I put the petco sand in a couple days ago. And driftwood same day as shrimp, yesterday. The shrimp weren't acting frantic or anything either, just grazing the tank.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Did you drain the whole tank before adding the shrimp? What was your water change schedule before, with the fish in the tank? Parameters from then?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

The most I've "drained" was about 50% water change when I added the sand in to help get rid of the cloudiness. Before then, I would change the water weekly 35% because I overstocked on them, to be honest. Params were pH 7.3-7.5. Temp 78F. Everything else is basically the same.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Just a suggestion that you might not wanna use the strips for testing since they aren't that all accurate... API test kits are nice.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

mjbn said:


> The most I've "drained" was about 50% water change when I added the sand in to help get rid of the cloudiness. Before then, I would change the water weekly 35% because I overstocked on them, to be honest. Params were pH 7.3-7.5. Temp 78F. Everything else is basically the same.


Drain it all, leave it a day, and test it. There should be no ammonia.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh I know, I have an API liquid test kit and I just picked up the API strips for a ballpark range of my gh/kh. But I think it is the drift wood. I just tested the water from the tub w/ the wood in it. Already have a reading of 1.0+ppm..


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I think I'll just do large water change. Driftwood is gone for now. I might just go with some cholla wood, if that's any better.


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## gtu2004 (Feb 17, 2010)

lucky thing your 5 free TT didn't come in early.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

do you have any prime or amquel? that'll at least neutralize the ammonia and nitrite.. really with a ph under 7 the ammonia isn't so much the problem as the nitrite, prime or amquel will take care of that, but definitely need to get the tank cycled.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Yah i'm getting some later today. But the thing is that te tanks been cycled for over a year now..


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I can't see DW causing a ammonia and nitrate spike though.. That's bizarre.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Beats me too.. I should have everything back under control by tonight/tomorrow though..


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Yeah. With the number of rilis and amanos you have, in a 20 gallon, you don't need a cycled tank. It would take several hundred shrimp to produce a noticeable amount of ammonia as long as you keep up with your water changes. I'd also just forget about the ferts, with the plants you have, it's not really going to do much...


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Could it possibly be that while the tank was empty in terms of inhabitants, the bacteria died off? Only conclusion I can come to for this cycle again.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

But it wouldn't cycle at all if this were the case. You need ammonia to start a cycle, and the shrimp would not produce a sufficient amount of it to do so (how many we're there to begin with?). This is why I'm perplexed.

What were the parameters when the fish were in the tank? Actually, for that matter, what kind of fishes were they?


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

Feeding the shrimp would cause ammonia from the food, that simple..


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Well the tank was already cycled beforehand. It's been cycled for over a year but then when I sold my fish, the tank was completely empty with no inhabitants. After about 2-4 weeks of nothing in it, I got the shrimp/driftwood and I had an ammonia spike. I get what you're saying about the shrimp not making that much ammonia, but I have no idea either. A desperation guess is that the bacteria died off since there was no ammonia source for those 2-4 weeks.? Idk.. I'm just sad I lost those shrimp


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

HolyAngel said:


> Feeding the shrimp would cause ammonia from the food, that simple..


I used 1 crab cuisine pellet split into 2 pieces.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

mjbn said:


> Well the tank was already cycled beforehand. It's been cycled for over a year but then when I sold my fish, the tank was completely empty with no inhabitants. After about 2-4 weeks of nothing in it, I got the shrimp/driftwood and I had an ammonia spike. I get what you're saying about the shrimp not making that much ammonia, but I have no idea either. A desperation guess is that the bacteria died off since there was no ammonia source for those 2-4 weeks.? Idk.. I'm just sad I lost those shrimp


Yea with no source of ammonia the cycle would have stopped. The bacteria would have all starved off.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

And water param for when it was a fish tank were

pH: 7.4
Temp: 78F
GH&KH: Untested at time
Substrate: Sand 
Little to no live plants, no ferts, no CO2. 

Fish were 8 neons, 5 kuhli loaches, 2 guppies, 4 femal bettas and 5 ottos without a problem or die offs. The tank WAS overstocked, but it was an established, cycled tank. If it could handle that load, I don't get how it can't handle the shrimp. 

I got 10 rili, and 8 amano which I split 6-2 with my 20G and 10G.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Btw, thanks for all the help/input with my situation!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

mjbn said:


> A desperation guess is that the bacteria died off since there was no ammonia source for those 2-4 weeks.? Idk.. I'm just sad I lost those shrimp





diwu13 said:


> Yea with no source of ammonia the cycle would have stopped. The bacteria would have all starved off.


Yes. The bacteria are dead, no doubt. But it doesn't matter. The tiny amount of ammonia is going to be diluted through 20 gallons, it's going to be significant enough to do something like this... What were the readings again? From the liquid kit.

Also, I would talk to Tiffany about holding your order until we figure it all out... That would suck sooooo much to lose the TTs.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Ammonia readings from then? Half them and thats what you have now, with your 50% water change...

Shrimp are so overly sensitive... Keeps you on edge, especially with the stress of really (no pun intended) shrimp...



mjbn said:


> And water param for when it was a fish tank were
> 
> pH: 7.4
> Temp: 78F
> ...


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Yea, so you did have a lot of fish in there so the beneficial bacteria levels adjusted themselves to handle the large load. Then 2-4 months without ANYTHING in there 100% would've killed all the bacteria off. And then the shrimp wouldn't have had enough bioload contribution to cycle a tank back up. And then feeding them probably caused an immediate ammonia introduction, causing a spike.

You didn't use any filter media from another tank? I established my new yellow shrimp tank instantly with filter material from my other shrimp tank. No problems at all.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh, for corrections it was 2-4 WEEKS, not months I did use the media from my HOB filters that were used when it was a fish tank and put it in the trays of the canister filter along with ceramic rings and bio balls (bought them before I researched/realized that they're not as effective in canisters-_-).


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

On a different note, why aren't they effective in canisters? They still provide surface area for beneficial bacteria to grow?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

They are, but just not AS effective as, lets say, ceramic rings. Bio balls are most effective in like wet/dry sumps. Needless to say, as long as I have enough surface area for bacteria in the tank, I'm fine They just needa re-colonize a bit faster for me!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

@diwu, I seriously doubt that feeding them would cause a significant ammonia spike. How much did you feed, MJBN? Did they eat it?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

1 crab cuisine pellet split into two pieces. And yes, they ate it.


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

How big is a pellet? I've never used that. And they ate all of it?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Like... _ up to __ <<<

And yeah, they were all passing it around.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

You don't need to feed your shrimp dude.... There are like 10 in there... That sized pellet is way too much. I have 30 something shrimp in my 11,4 and haven't fed them at all yet. They will survive on biofilm.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

After hours of debate on what to do and constant checking on the shrimp in the container and using a syringe to change out the water every couple hours(along with no sleep), I've decided that I might just buy a breeder net/cage and attach that inside my 10G with the yellows since they are thriving rightnow. I sadly lost 1 more blue male Will probably go to the store as soon as it opens later this morning.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

How many rili's left?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

6 But 2 of them are saddled. But I doubt there will be babies until I get them settled in there REAL home instead of the breeder net..


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

People have had shrimp breed in breeder nets haha.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Well yeah... that's true. haha But I really just want this tank to be done re-cycling cuz I don't like them in a little mesh box in the 10G I wanna see them roaming! haha


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Patience is a virtue!!!! :hihi:


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Seriously.. Haha It's getting there though. I got ammonia down to 1.0+ish, nitrites to 0, and nitrates at 30-40. Just waiting for that ammonia to drop then stabilize.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I have a berried blue rili.. I don't know whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. The blue rili are in the 10G with the yellows, separated by a breeder net. I lost one male shrimp in the container last night, so I wanted the fresh water flow in the 10G to minimize any more losses. But yeah, the blue rili female is berried. I'm excited, but I'm worried that the sperm from the blue might float around the tank into a yellow? Or vice versa? Possibility?


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

If the female blue rili was on one side of the breeder net, and the male yellow on the other, I can see a small possibility of it occurring. But that breeder mesh is pretty fine though.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah, exactly. I wish I would've been watching when it happened to be sure:/


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Congrats man, that was fast! At this point I would just suggest you keep the rilis in that tank (out of the net) and move the yellows into the larger tank (after everything stabilizes, of course). The TTs may do better in here too. It just seems like a better option and the yellows are a good bit hardier than the rilis and a huge bit hardier than the TTs.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

If they offsprings are wilds, I would remove them completely. I think even if you cross breed back on itself, the F2 generation will be brown as well. .

Posted this here in case anyone had a definite answer. But I know a wild neo x RCS will still be a wild neo. I think the only time the offspring aren't screwed up is a Pumpkin x Yellow. John did that and the shrimp he sent me are orange/yellow and not brown


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

The water params in the 10G are different from the 20G though, mainly in terms of pH. To keep the pH low and stable, I'm planning on putting some peat in my canister in the 20G. I can't do the same for the 10G since it's a sponge filter. So I don't think the TT's would be as suitable in the 10G.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I was thinking if the offspring come out wild, just cull the OFFSPRING and keep the parents. I'll already have them separated into two tanks by that time so wouldn't I just be able to let the parents breed again and have the offspring be blue rili?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Aw, nvm guys. She's dropping them rightnow as I'm typing this. Well I guess this is a good and bad thing. There's 1 more still saddled, hopefully she doesn't get berried yet!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

mjbn said:


> I was thinking if the offspring come out wild, just cull the OFFSPRING and keep the parents. I'll already have them separated into two tanks by that time so wouldn't I just be able to let the parents breed again and have the offspring be blue rili?


Yes, the parents will both be pure lines. Didnt' know that's what you meant haha. I thought you meant keeping the offspring to back cross .



mjbn said:


> Aw, nvm guys. She's dropping them rightnow as I'm typing this. Well I guess this is a good and bad thing. There's 1 more still saddled, hopefully she doesn't get berried yet!


Chances are that female will also drop eggs if the first does .


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I actually saw 2 saddles. So 3 females at least out of the 6 remaining. And yeah, I'm not really surprised that she dropped them.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Ammonia down to 1.0ppm from the previous 4.0+ppm a couple days ago. Lost the female that was berried/dropped. No more losses, yet. Keeping my fingers crossed to keep the remaining 5 (2 of which are saddled females).


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Why don't you pick up some SeaChem Stablility to quick-cycle the tank? If you put a few food pellets in the tank for ammonia, the tank should be cycled within a week.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Prime already neutralizes ammonia. But the bacteria need ammonia in order to grow so he should wait for the cycle.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Stability doesn't neutralize ammonia. It is a bacteria supplement that makes cycling faster. I've used it many times and it works very well.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I already used two bottles of the safestart over a couple days but I read that high ammonia levels kills the bacteria in the product.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

? Never heard that before, more like no ammonia in the tank will kill the bacteria.. Beneficial bacteria need ammonia to grow and reproduce..


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

That's what tetra said, 4.0+ kills the bacteria on the bottle.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Another update:

Ammonia is now .25ppm, nitrite 0, but nitrates are around 70-100ppm. Did a PWC and am getting more floaters from Han to help soak them up. I really liked the look of the DW in the tank, so I'm trying it out again. Ammonia levels have not changed. Rearranged some of the plants and stuff. And put some of the riccia on the DW. 









Left side








Right side
















Another front view


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

No further casualties (fingers crossed). I was spying on my lady friend and caught a couple pics, hoping she'll berry soon!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Can't see the pics man!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Oooops! Here you go! Nothing special, just a quick snap shot since I rarely see her in the open!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Whadahottie! Will that be the feeding fish?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

For now, only cost like 37 cents or something. Simple enough. haha

PS: Picture does not do the shrimp justice! Lighting and picture quality totally take away what it really looks like!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

To be honest, I think it's that way for all blue rili ! They just look like blue pearls in 95% of the pictures haha.

But I totally get you lol. Why spend like $10 on a feeder dish when you can get more shrimp with that money


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> To be honest, I think it's that way for all blue rili ! They just look like blue pearls in 95% of the pictures haha.
> 
> But I totally get you lol. Why spend like $10 on a feeder dish when you can get more shrimp with that money


^^^ +1000000 haha. Tiffany actually just sent out the TT's today. I'm excited! I'm also planning on moving over to RO water, possibly a mix of RO/tap in the next couple weeks.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Why RO + tap? Why not RO + remineralization.


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## DesmondTheMoonBear (Dec 19, 2011)

Nice! Hopefully everything is smooth sailing for you here on out.  And welcome to the teenage aquariest club! I'm 16 

I remember you also won one of Tiffany's RAOKs  I got my CRS/CBS from her a couple weeks ago, 2 of the blacks came DOA but everything else has been doing great.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Got the TT's today. sadly, it looks like it got hit pretty bad on the lid& made the heat pack drop directly on top of them.. Tiffany separated them into 2 bags, and the bag of 2 survived. The other 3 were cooked red. Sad, but still grateful for the RAOK& that 2 made it! Ill post pics of survivors, victims, & box later.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Couldn't get a snap of the other 2 shrimp that made it yet, but they've colored up pretty deeply in just a couple hours!

Dead shrimp - No shells, just cooked flesh

























The Box - crushed/broken during transit. Was shipped in only this styro box.









The lid - Hit on top, caused heat pack to fall loose inside.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Broke that sucks.... So sorry to hear about the TT's. May the blue rilis breed and make up for it!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah, man.. I still have two left so I'm hoping it's a male/female combo.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Ordered some more TT's from Liam. Here's a couple snaps I took 5 minutes ago!


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## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

Nice!


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Nice. How big are they?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

About +/- an inch each. 1 is saddled and I'll be switching to RO water hopefully next week, slowly, so the water params should fully be stable to their liking.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Well another change in plans guys. 

Current FTS









Failed attempts at pictures of my berried yellow Camera phone FTL!

































The yellow got berried in my 10G, and about 3 days after she berried, I decided to move them over to the 20G with the TT's, and make the 10G an OEBT tank. The blue rili that I had in the 20G were traded for a couple OEBT juvies.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Saw my TT's flying around just rightnow, they still are as I type this. I just looked and the see what I'm assuming to be a male "straddling" the saddled female. Hoping to see some eggs soon


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Berried TT! Pics coming later today if I can catch her!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Best I could do with my camera phone


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Congrats! Hopefully it isn't her first time and wont drop them.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

&If anyone can check out my post in the Substrate section about the water params, please help me out!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

jkan0228 said:


> Congrats! Hopefully it isn't her first time and wont drop them.


I'm pretty sure this is her first time, when I got the shrimp, none of them had the "dropped belly" type look with the more curvy swimmerets. I AM worried though, because I plan on taking the underlayer of sand out of the 20G and moving the shrimp to the 10G while I do so. I would hate to have the berried shrimp drop their eggs in the process:/


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

I moved my shrimp, having them in a ziploc bag for 2 hours and they didn't drop anything.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Ziploc:O I'm not so much worried about the yellows dropping eggs, I still have another fat saddled waiting to berried. Did you run any air pump in the bag or no? I don't wanna go through the process of chasing the shrimp around the 10G if I do drop them in there, making them stressed = dropped eggs.


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Nope. Just a chunk of moss. I took all the wood out so it was easy to catch them.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I have a ton of plants though Gonna be a pain replanting all the glosso trimmings.. Haha


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Tried again, same camera phone


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## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

How long have you had them? Seems like they berried pretty quick.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Glad to see they're breeding for you already! 

Good work! Expect more breeding relatively soon, the ones I sent you were all just about breeding age!

Mine have started going nuts in the past week and I have about 20 berried females now.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

^^^ Seriously, I wasn't expecting the TT's to berry so quickly for me, especially with harder, more basic water I've only had them for like less than 2 weeks. I'm pretty sure I got them on the 13th of this month! Quality shrimp from Liam, forsure


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Woke up to a dead TT:/ Didn't test pH levels, too worried about more losses.. Instantly moved the shrimp to my 10G while I took whatever of the black sand I could salvage without getting the underlaying white sand and drained about 50% of the water. Pretty unsuccessful job, not enough sand to replant all my plants. Selling them for money for a new substrate. Thinking Akadama or Turface.


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## manualfocus (Jun 15, 2011)

mjbn said:


> Woke up to a dead TT:/ Didn't test pH levels, too worried about more losses.. Instantly moved the shrimp to my 10G while I took whatever of the black sand I could salvage without getting the underlaying white sand and drained about 50% of the water. Pretty unsuccessful job, not enough sand to replant all my plants. Selling them for money for a new substrate. Thinking Akadama or Turface.


That sucks to hear that. My TT population crashed recently too. All the berried females died for me. Good luck getting things back to order!


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Man that sucks for both of you, I was getting so excited to see some baby shrimp, I hope you get it worked out on the next batch, good luck.

BTW this is the second time today I've read about Turface, I'll have to check it out.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh guys, the berried female isn't dead! But I think the one that did die was a saddled one. I couldn't see her saddle when I found her, so I'm also thinking that she might have been "harassed" a bit too much if the males were mating with her. But the pH is another prominent problem. 

150EH, I'm new to hear about it too. I was told it's just like Akadama, but it doesn't buffer the water. I honestly don't really want Akadama because of price and because it doesn't last as long as I would like


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Turface sub is now in. A good 2-3 inches of it too. Tank is bare except a piece of driftwood with riccia on it. Getting mosses in soon, within the next couple days. I can see eyes on the yellow eggs so excited for that! It seems that the turface is buffering the water or something. When I tested my KH, it went straight to a clear-super light orange tint color. 4 drops in, and no change so I'm guessing my KH is 0, as expected with turface. My pH is reading 6.4 rightnow, not sure if it's from the turface or the driftwood, but if the turf is lowering KH, then I guess that's the reason for it being so low. 

Formerly berried TT has been chilling in the driftwood the past few days and I've noticed a forming saddle again. Hoping for more eggs! 

Basically the sub change seems well so far. In the past few days, I've counted 6 molt shells out of the 10 shrimp inside. No deaths!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Good to hear. Wasn't aware that turface was an active substrate.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

I think the high CEC of the turface creates some pH swings and other chemical alterations during the initial set-up. Unlike true active substrates it doesn't last very long.

I have read reports both ways on Turface changing pH but either way it seems that it doesn't last long if it does happen.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Driftwood is lowering KH and pH, it's good at that, much like indian almond leaf


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Interesting, when I had the sand sub, the driftwood and 2 IAL leaves didn't seem to be doing anything for the 7.6+ph water. With this new sub, I guess the driftwood is really doing it's thing with lowering/softening the water. But guess what I can home too, today. Dead TT juvie. Not sure what killed it, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate <5. Only thing I can think of is that I did put back the ceramic plate/feeding dish today before I left, which is what I found the dead body in. I don't know if there's a correlation, but I'm tired of these deaths


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

There might be some residual stuff in the tank. Your parameters seems fine so I'm not sure why your shrimp keep dying :\


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Me either. Totally beats me as to what it is.. I'm pretty sure the pH is finally settling at 6.4 as it's been at that level for about 2 days now.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Small Update: 3/10








Racing stripe on a TT? Her color went downhill after berrying/dropping her eggs about a week 1/2 ago. 










After RAOKing the rest of my plants and getting some mosses in and moving some hydrocotyle sp. japan in from my 10G: 3/5


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Glad you got rid of the ball of ricca haha. It looks so empty now :\


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I know:/ This is still not a permanent scape, I plan on moving lots of stuff around once I get new bulbs and things grow out a little more!


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Update 3/12:


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

So much yellow shrimp haha. What are those tiles of? You have like plastic shower scrubbie + what?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Yeah, I'm thinking about switching the OEBT's into this tank and the TT's into the 10G so I have more color variation, but I don't know yet


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Oh and it's java moss. Went overboard on the scrubbie on some of them haha


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Are they on like rocks or something?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Nope, just sprinkled a little of the turf on top of them and they stay down Haha


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

MASSIVE berried TT after coming home from school. Looks like I'm gonna be leaving the filter alone for another month or two. I would hate to stir things up too much and have her drop her eggs again. I'd guesstimate that there's atleast 25 and up to like 35-40 in this clutch.. Better pics soon when she comes out of hiding in this DW! The dark blob in the right side of the slit are the eggs!


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Congrats! Btw.. how did you attach the ricca to the cholla? Super glue?


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

It's regular driftwood, but I used fishing line, and tons of it. I think on the 1st page, there's pictures of when I first put it in with some of the dying riccia in my previous "riccia mat." lol


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

Or nvm, it's on post #97.


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

I recently restarted this tank and it seems well so far.. Stocked with RCS and gonna be going slow in hopes to not repeat my past mistakes-_-


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Wow.. why did you change the substrate out


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## mjbn (Dec 14, 2011)

The sand I was using buffered the water pH to 8.0+:/ Had no option really. I do miss the black sub, it looked tons better, but I can manage with what I have.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

Interesting having the sand buffer the pH upwards. Hope this works out so you can go back to your pricey shrimps.


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