# scolley's 75g Big Clear Kahuna (56K warning)



## Wö£fëñxXx

Looking good Steve, nice start my friend.... roud:


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## Bert H

Nice cypress pieces you got there! I agree that your 'creek channel' needs to be angled, not so 'straight'. Great start. I'll be curious to see if you can manage to keep the two different subs from mixing in together.


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## cookfromscratch

GORGEOUS!!!! 

Can I be a total newbie and ask if those are real cypress (assuming they are, here, since this is a planted tank forum.) I've been seeing more and more wood structure use in planted tanks (and love it) but don't know how it is done or if it is "real." Can you elaborate a bit (or point me to a DIY?)

Thanks, Dawn


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## m.lemay

Awesome beginnings. 

It's nice to see your dream come to fruition.

roud: 

Marcel


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## Jason Baliban

I have seen so many scapes on these forums. That is one of the better starts!! Oh and the tank itself looks awesome man!!! Great work!!

jB


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## andyg

Great start Steve. It'll look amazing when the plants fill in.
Happy to see your dream come to life.
Andy


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## Hop

Wow... Very Very nice...


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## scolley

Thanks folks!

Yeah, the Cypress is real. I got it from Donna Gracie at Tom's Cypress, the _only _ place I found where I could get that stuff. It ships dry, not real expensive, and light as a feather (so shipping is cheap). But I had to quarter the stump, which was a real PITA since I don't have a chain saw. And then found that no amount of boiling would make that stuff sink. So there's quite a few pounds of 1/2" slate drilled onto the bottom of that stuff.

Bert - here's a pic of what I wanted the channel to look like. It was just tough pouring the sand and it didn't work out. I'll fix it after the plants root. But the idea was for the end of the channel to not be visible when looking at the tank straight on.









I need to get a new pic of the tank up, and then I can explain some intended features of the 'scape that are not so obvious in my first pic.

But thanks for the kind feedback!

PS - mississippimorning, I grew up in Mobile. So this is just kind of what I grew up seeing if I opened my eyes while swimming!


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## vlh

Beautiful!


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## bigpow

Very impressive attention to details =)


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## PJAN

Yahoo !!!

Finally, the tank is filled with water and plants !
Thanks for posting this first picture ! I always liked the fresh start most, where things has to mature and you still can wonder how it will be in a few weeks.

And indeed, it is looking very very clear...
Geeee, now I am a bit jealous about your clear glass... :icon_conf 

I want one!

Good job, Steve roud: 

Gr. PJAN


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## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Wow the tank looks great! I can't wait for an update!


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## Georgiadawgger

What a great start!! The hairgrass is really going to give it a natural look. Can't wait to see how it looks in a couple months!! roud:


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## Snailpoo

*Beautiful!*

It's good to see all of your hard work paying off! roud:


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## shalu

Steve, I don't do aquascapes, so I can't give you any advice on that. But I can tell you this: your DIY tank looks every bit as good as the ADA glass tanks I checked out in person. Your efforts were well worth it roud: . By the way, what lighting fixture are you using? looks very cool.


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## Urkevitz

Do I see a prawn in there?


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## lumpyfunk

Glad to see it up, looks great!


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## timr

That is simply beautiful Steve! Great plan on the aquascape too, i really hope the HC kicks in for you, that will top it off roud:


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## BlueRam

Looks Great!

Any chance we could peek "under the hood?"


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## scolley

Thanks folks! You are too kind.

I am thrilled to hear that the tank itself looks OK. It was one royal PITA to build, and cost more than I expected, so that's good news! But honestly, I think it looks better in person than in the photos. In person you can inspect more closely, and see the little flaws, but they are relatively small. And the overwhelming impression of looking at a big cube of water is just way cool to me!

As for the aquascape, it's got to grow in. As mentioned before, as soon as I get past this GW I'll post a new pic with the additional plants.

And FWIW, I'm not sure that GW is actually diatomic algae. It is only slightly milky. You have to look through the 4' length of the tank to _really _ see it. I didn't rinse the quartz sand before I put it in... stupid I know. I forgot. But I'm wondering if it might be some type of silica dust. So I put on the Magnum and will see if a day or so running that clears things up.

Shalu the fixture is a 6 x 54watt Tek T5. So far I love it. I was afraid it would be too bright, but these are all high light plants. So for now I've been running 2 lamps 11 hours / day. Soon I'll move to a "high noon" period with 6 lamps for a few hours in the middle of the day. But I want to ease into it, and make sure I'm not just growing algae.

Blueram the plumbing pics are coming. But I've got to actually finish the plumbing first! Soon...

Thanks again for the kind words folks. It was a whole lot of work. But at this point, I've got to say it was worth it. roud: 

And that feels _good_.


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## timr

scolley said:


> And FWIW, I'm not sure that GW is actually diatomic algae. It is only slightly milky. You have to look through the 4' length of the tank to _really _ see it. I didn't rinse the quartz sand before I put it in... stupid I know. I forgot. But I'm wondering if it might be some type of silica dust. So I put on the Magnum and will see if a day or so running that clears things up.


I'm thinking you might not have GW at all, from my experience there's a crazy amount dust in silica sand. Unless i'm confused.


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## AaronT

Yay it holds water finally.  I'm sure you are enjoying a beer in front of it right now.

Can we see a full on front view by any chance? Your drawing shows that the right side is longer and bigger, but the angle you shot it at makes it look symmetrical.


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## awrieger

Looks great so far, Steve!


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## scolley

Here's a full frontal from that same 1st evening grandmaster. From it you can see just how much I deviated from my intended design when I put in the sand.  










I'm bummed because this is going to be hard to fix, and will not be able to be done until the plants take root. It's waaay too symmetrical now. But I built this fre*king tank. I think if I put my mind to it, I can push a little sand around.

But it will still be a major hassle.

And thanks for the info on the sand timr. I may have to put some extra floss in that filter, as I'm not at all convinced this is green water. The UV sure as heck didn't make a dent after 2 days of continuous running.

With all that complaining said, I think if you look real hard, you may just be able to see me in the reflection in the glass... sitting on my fanny, smiling and drinking my beer. :icon_wink


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## figgy

This is just gonna be so great to watch..... roud: Fig


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## Lorenceo

Oh man, that tank is aewsome Steve!
Been a lurker on the other thread, and damn! I would have given up. But clearly, keeping at it got you thereroud:
Will be cool to see how this tank progresses, might even give momo's thread a run for its money
Could we get a shot of inside the stand? I wanna see the plumbing!


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## PJAN

Maybe you should trimm the short type of hairgrass?
The leaves and flowers (?) will not adjust and will rot away. New young leaves will come from the base.
So a hair-cut is maybe a good thing to do : take a pair of scissors and cut it off 1 inch above the bottom.

Gr. PJAN


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## scolley

PJAN said:


> Maybe you should trimm the short type of hairgrass?
> The leaves and flowers (?) will not adjust and will rot away. New young leaves will come from the base.
> So a hair-cut is maybe a good thing to do : take a pair of scissors and cut it off 1 inch above the bottom.
> 
> Gr. PJAN


Every single stem of the short hairgrass has a little wheat looking flower on the top. Are you saying that those stems are all going to die, so I may as well cut them down? And let all the new growth come up from the base?

Nice see another lurker speak up Lorenco!

Plumbing pics are coming... but I gotta warn you, with all the bulkhead stuff, it's a bit of a jumble in the stand. Up close it's very logical, but I'm not sure if that will come across in pictures.

Thanks again for the comps folks. It is my hope that this is just the humble beginning to a nice (lovely) biotope. It's got a long way to go. For me I suppose the metric of success is "Wow!" If someone says that when they first walk into the room, I know I've met my objective. Anything less, and I've got more work to do. I've got to get to the "Wow!" point.


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## m.lemay

PJAN said:


> Maybe you should trimm the short type of hairgrass?
> The leaves and flowers (?) will not adjust and will rot away. New young leaves will come from the base.
> So a hair-cut is maybe a good thing to do : take a pair of scissors and cut it off 1 inch above the bottom.
> 
> Gr. PJAN


Yeah, Pjans right. Cut it down about an inch or so from the roots. That emersed growth is gonna die back and get algae covered anyway. Cutting it back encourages it to spread roots.

Marcel


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## scolley

Before I do anything drastic, I'd like to add that I trimmed the roots down to nearly nothing on all the dwarf hairgrass before I planted. It was full of rockwool, and I was willing to have to replant if required, just to keep 2 lbs of rock wool from being spread all over my tank.

So given that I've massively cut the roots back, would you still recommend a trim on all the dwarf hairgrass?


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## AlexPerez

I would go slowly on turning on all the 6 bulbs on the Tek.
I have the same one over my 75G and every time I try to run all
six I get some hair Alage, but boy the plants st


Great looking tank!! roud: roud:

regards,
Alex


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## scolley

AlexPerez said:


> I would go slowly on turning on all the 6 bulbs on the Tek.
> I have the same one over my 75G and every time I try to run all
> six I get some hair Alage...


Thanks Alex. I suppose I should just bump it up to 4 bulb. I knew that... it's just that it look so _good _ with 6! But good advice taken. Thanks - will do.


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## AaronT

m.lemay said:


> Yeah, Pjans right. Cut it down about an inch or so from the roots. That emersed growth is gonna die back and get algae covered anyway. Cutting it back encourages it to spread roots.
> 
> Marcel


Yes indeed...that emersed growth will sit there for a long time and slowly die. Cutting the top inch off of the hairgrass encourages it to spread more rapidly; this is even true when planting submersed growth as well.

Thanks for the full on front shot Steve. I think you'll be able to manipulate the balance of the tank a good bit when the plants grow in to their full potential so I wouldn't worry to much. It's like you said, what's a little sand pushing compared to building that tank?..heh heh.


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## SCMurphy

Good luck with the Eleocharis montevidensis, I had that stuff growing out of the top of a 24 inch deep tank. It stuck up a good 6 inches. I forget, did you mention that you planned for that to happen?


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## crshadow

scolley, like the others I'm very happy to finally see your tank completed and filled with water and plants! After following your other thread through all the ups and downs, I think I speak for everyone by saying that I'm glad you saw it through to the end despite the setbacks and despite being at your wits end. You could have given up, yet you persevered and we're glad for that.

The aquascape is looking great so far, can't wait to see it grow in!

-Jeremiah


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## uncskainch

Just...WOW, Scolley! Beautiful tank, both the tank itself and the creative and lovely aquascape. Can't wait to see it fill in and to see it inhabited!


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## hueyn

Steve,

Looking good! roud: 

Huey


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## AlexPerez

Hey scolley,

How do you like the water movement you get with the lilly pipe(s)?
I have one on each side driven by XP3s. IMO it creates more 
water movement than the spray bars I had running the length
of the tank. But it does get a bit strong for some of the stem plants
when they start hitting the top.


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## scolley

Thanks folks! It's great to be finally getting this going! And for those of you that I dragged through the painful building process, I apologize for any frustration I may have caused, and hope that seeing it up and running brings a bit of satisfaction! Thanks again for all that support during the painful part! roud: 

Thanks for the feedback on the dwarf hairgrass. I suppose I'm gonna have to give that a trim. But it will have to wait a few days - that's gonna be a mess.

And Sean, I never mentioned it, but I always figured that I'd have to give the giant hairgrass a regular trim. In fact, I already have. When I planted it a lot stuck out of the top of the tank. Cool thing is though, I gave it another trim yesterday. I hope that's a good sign. roud: 

I dropped the Magum on with the micron filter, and 20 hours later the tank is definately more clear. I assume it is silica dust or something. I was under the impression that a Magum's micron cartridge would not filter GW. Please someone speak up if that's wrong.

And I love the lillies Alex! Not only are they unobtrusive, but I like the flow they create. I'm no expert, but it seems like it should be just right. A normal open pipe outflow is like a garden hose, spray bars are like short pencil thin jets. This just creates a wide, but reasonable, flow across the length of the tank. So it winds up imparting a fairly gentle current in most of the tank, which I assume is ideal.


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## Marc

Steve,

I havent really read through the post but would like to give you my thoughts on the scape. I would loose the middle sand path and keep the sand just in the front.
http://www.e-aquaria.com/aquaforest.html


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## Buck

Wow I missed a lot here over the last couple days... 
Some opinions;
Love the idea
Love the tank
Love the path (seperation)

My fear...
*ALGAE*  


You bit off a big chunk starting with that plant selection Steve... its a great layout and I know what it can be when it mature's but it will be a bugger to balance out in the onset. 
Many of those plants are tuffies in a new substrate, be careful on how you dose this tank. Crank the CO2 and tread carefully Grasshopper...

I love the piece of wood on the left but Im not too crazy about the small piece of wood on the right. It looks like an Alien Buddha ! :icon_frow 
In its place I would almost like to see another 4" or so round full piece (full small stump) or "two" smaller ones straight to the water surface like you have on the left to create a stump field if you will. A small branch or two growing off of them would be kool with the hairgrass background and bases. Well not even branches...maybe like large knots even... roud: 

I love the layout though...I can see where you are trying to go with it and I really like it ! roud: But man Steve, you got your work cut out for you. 

Got my eye on this one... :icon_bigg


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## scolley

Marc - thanks for the feedback! But to be honest, the picture you posted is beautiful. But it's also a very much a standard "sand in front" tank. I'm shooting for something different. In fact, this is just the beginning of the scape. After it begins to grow in, you'll see the changes I'm planning. If it works out, and that's a real big if, the reason for the path in the middle will become more clear. Time will tell. But thanks for the advice!

Buck! I could not agree more with most of your sentiments though! Algae is going to be a challenge. But this is most definately NOT a Dutch aquascape. Nor is it an Amano "Nature" scape - for which nature seems to mean Asian aquatic. It is distinctly North American, but trying to be visually appealing, by deliberately leaving out many of the truly butt-ugly North American stem plants. That compromise brings the very high risk of heavy early algae.

So be it.

And I agree about the Buddha! LOL. Perfect description. But it IS accurate. Cypress forests have lots and lots of Cypress knees in them. I know. I've hit enough with my boat's prop! But I could replace it with a different stump. Agreed. And I have some quarter stump spares. But I could not (that's as in absolutely could not!) find a smaller stump. And the tank is positioned to be viewed from the front, or the front right (never the left), so I could use the reflections to position a fractional stump on the left. I can't pull that trick off on the right. It would show. :icon_frow 

So for now, I'm stuck with the Cypress knee (Alien Buddha)!


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## Buck

Actually, when the hairgrass gets taller it should soften the "buddha look" of the cypress knuckle. Is that a ludwigia to the left and front of it ? I just noticed that plant...it blended nicely


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## Oqsy

mosquitoscape lives! i'll net you a few mosquitofish, a snapping turtle, and some baby alligator gars if you want 

Looking fantastic steve. I'm looking forward to all updates and progress, as it sounds like you've got a very thorough plan (as always). Thanks for sharing this adventure with all of us!

Oqsy


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## scolley

Buck said:


> Actually, when the hairgrass gets taller it should soften the "buddha look" of the cypress knuckle. Is that a ludwigia to the left and front of it ? I just noticed that plant...it blended nicely


Hey, this guy's paying attention! roud: 

Yup. There are two different types of Ludwigia (if they both survive!) in the area in front of Buddha and The Stump. Between the lotus and banana plants (which are very much movable) I hope to be able to grow some Ludwigia that provide both color toward the center of those planted patches, and soften the hard visual draw to Buddha! If all works out as planned, I'll actually have two different points of focus, one on the left and one on the right - causing the viewer to have to shift their gaze from left to right - creating an illusion of a wider tank.

I shouldn't be saying all this, as goodness knows what I'm going to be able to do. And I dead certain that this visual gamesmanship will be far more effective in person, looking at a 4' vista vs. a 14" picture on someone's computer screen. But sorry guys. I'm not designing this for the computer. It's for the people that walk into the family room.

Can't make everybody happy. But hopefully it won't look like complete poo-poo on screen either.


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## Curare

Well done scolley.

It's looking mint!

Just a word of warning tho, keeping white sands clean is a real PITA, I should know I have 3 tanks with it.

Just keep on top of it with regular vaccuming, and make sure you don't suck it all out!

I'll be keeping an eye on this one!


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## scolley

Curare said:


> Just a word of warning tho, keeping white sands clean is a real PITA, I should know I have 3 tanks with it.
> 
> Just keep on top of it with regular vacuuming, and make sure you don't suck it all out!


Yeah, fortunately I NEVER throw anything away. And fortunately my wife has discovered that our house plant LOVE end-of-week tank waters. So using my old teeny-tiny gravel vac siphon from my kids 5g, I can do a quick weekly vac on the sand and supply my wife with a bit of great house plant water before I drag out the python.

All that and keep my sand clean too! Sounds like a win-win. Thanks!


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## Curare

Yeah that's the trouble with white sand.

It's white, and well fish poo isn't.

Makes a good way to see if you're fish are giving your plants mulm


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## m.lemay

Steve: Stick to your "out of the box" plan, and don't let others sway you too far from the vision. After all, it's your tank and your vision!

I have a lot of respect for Amano but all his designs are starting to look the same to me, ie:"in the box". While you ,my friend ,are stirring the pot. roud: 

Marcel


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## PJAN

I agree with Marcel, stick to the plan.
This aquascape is full of potential and has to mature first a few weeks.
Especially the lotus leaves between the fine hairgrass popping out... very very nice.

I think you should focus on getting the plants to grow with no algea and worry later about small adjustments to the aquascape.

Gr. PJAN


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## scolley

Thanks guys... yes, will stick with the plan until/unless it proves unworkable. But for the moment, the name of the game is "algae avoidance" and a little slow growth stimulation!


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## Bert H

Just adding my 2 cents worth to agree with the latter 2 posts about sticking with your vision and plan. One thing you might consider, and it is local to what you're doing, is to throw in a bunch of hornwort. Even if you don't keep it long term, it will sure suck up nutrients like that sand and water and will provide you with some stability for the 'new tank algae battle'.


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## fedge

I would not get TOO excited.. let it grown in for three months and then you can figure it all out. how to "train" the plants and yourself and prune and keep the look. (that lst part took me a long time to master and im still not there)

The only thing that i see wrong is that glass outlet tube.. hide it in the rear behind the wood stump. or something.....the galss thing always catches my eye in all the pictures now..


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## naX

Just wanted to say that I am subscribed! I love the look and I'm glad to see that the tank finally held up. Excellent work!


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## scolley

Bert H said:


> Just adding my 2 cents worth to agree with the latter 2 posts about sticking with your vision and plan. One thing you might consider, and it is local to what you're doing, is to throw in a bunch of hornwort. Even if you don't keep it long term, it will sure suck up nutrients like that sand and water and will provide you with some stability for the 'new tank algae battle'.


Thanks Bert. That's a good idea, functional and keeps with my North American theme! But I've had a algae busting secret weapon all along... nice big, piece of driftwood from my 20g, just covered with Java Fern.

I moved that in this morning. After a good, badly overdue, leaf and root trim. It will only be in there long enough to get the other plants cranking. So what's that? Six weeks maybe? After that I'm getting rid of it. No place for it.


Fedge - that outlet, is a glass lily pipe. Actually there are two - one does not allow enough flow. I can't put them behind the stump because that's where the nymphaea root balls are. It''s full. And nymphaea have to stay where they are to help take your eye away from the bare top of the stump.

I've got extra, unused, bulkheads intended to be used to be through the bottom of the tank inflows. But I'm not ready for that yet. I've bitten off enough for the moment IMO. So those lily pipes are my best compromise for low visibility equipment. But I'll keep my eye out for a better place.

And thanks for dropping in naX.

Hopefully I'll have new pics tonight. And the plumbing is almost ready too!


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## Buck

Ferns are a great plant to use to eat up the extra's.
As far as hiding equiptment...you are allready years ahead of the rest of us, looks great Steve.


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## scolley

Thank Buck!

Here's an updated pic...









The Java driftwood is pretty hard to miss! And it really messes with the visual flow of the tank. IMO, right now it looks better without it. Either way though, it's doing it's job, then gettin' the heck out of my biotope!

It's probably hard to see, but there is a row of HC in front of, and in back of, the border java moss rocks. Again, if I can get the the HC to kick in, I can remove the rock.

With the Java ferns in there, I'm on a full fert schedule, and 3 hours a day of the lights turned up to 4 x 54watt T5's. Doesn't sound like much light, but with the reflectors in these Teks lights, it's really bright.

There's a few more plants in there. They are all growing. Except the Ludwigia arcuata (or brevipes - never was sure), which just turned to mush. I had to rip out every stem. So now I've got to go get more. But I'll wait until it's not so hot.

And I am definatley loving finally having a bigger tank!


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## Oqsy

i have a bunch of brevipes (certain about that, got it from mike/momo a few months back). It's doing really well, grows almost as fast as my hygro polysperma "ceylon", and I toss some or take it to the LFS pretty much every week. If you're interested, let me know and I'll zip you a few stems whenever you're ready. I also haven't forgotten your pm, and will ask around the lfs today. looking good (Those are some beautiful ferns, even if they are misplaced).

Oqsy


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## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Even though the ferns make it look a bit odd the tank is still amazing. You did such a fantastic job with it and I can't wait for more pictures


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## scolley

Thanks StUk. I _hope _ it will improve with time. But you know, just like building the tank, _this too_ is a learning experience!

Oqsy - my interest is peaked! I'll send you a PM.


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## Cheeseybacon

Wow. :eek5:


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## cprroy73

Steve, It looks great. It will be nice to see fully mature. It must feel good aswell to know that you made the tank from scratch. Certainly adds some extra appeal knowing that.


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## scolley

*Plumbing!*

You are going to be sorry you asked for this!! Hold on to your seats... it's gonna look like a mess. But believe it or not, in person, when you can look in the stand, it doesn't look as bad as these pictures do. But here goes...

This is the stand, both doors open. The drawers you see are not functional. I had to leave that out of the stand building so that the plumbing could come down from the bottom of the tank.










General layout works like this:
Electrical stuff is principally on the right
Controllers (temp and CO2) are on the back right
Water filtration and treatment is in the middle
Ferts are toward the left​
So here are the rest of the pics. It's all mixed together. I'm sorry I couldn't take a picture of just one thing, and then describe it. It's all too mixed up and interlocking.









































WATER
The water for the plumbing works like this:
Two bulkheads coming out of the bottom of the tank (on back left and back right) take water thru 1" flex PVC to a manifold on the left wall.

The manifold has a temp sensor, a pH probe, and a ground probe that are in the water flow that is consolidated into a single 5/8" standard Eheim tube to the Eheim Pro II.

From there it exits and the tubing takes a 45 slow bend to enter the top of the CO2 diffuser. Exiting the bottom of that, most of the water curves again thru standard Eheim tubing into a Hydor heater. But on the way to the heater is a "T" where some of the water is diverted.

The "T" diverts some water straight up to a TurboTwist UV unit. But that flow is limited by a ball valve to a measured 50 gph to ensure maximum efficiency (proper killing function) of the UV.

Upon leaving the UV, the water is joined by a "Y" to the flow coming out of the Hydor heater. The single branch of the "Y" is fed into another "Y" that splits the water into two equal strength flows that exit the side of the stand through holes drilled for that purpose, and travel up the side of the tank thru clear tubing, where they return water over the top left edge of the tank through glass lilly pipes.​ It is worth noting that these "Y" have an internal diameter about the same as the Eheim tubing. So though there is some resistance, it's not choking the flow.

CO2
The CO2 tank is in a bad position. One of my compromises. But it is fairly easily accessible, and is strapped in. The CO2 tube travel through an overhead system of cable guides that bring it to the top of the diffuser, where it enters the water flow. The diffuser itself has CO2 entry at the top, but also has two additional liquid entry points on the bottom. One for macro ferts. One for micro. All of these entry points have permanently attached airline sized miniature ball valves. So tubing can be removed and it still be water tight.​
FERTS
The micro and micro pumps are to the left, with easily accessible jugs feeding them hanging from hooks in the top of the left side of the cabinet. BTW - I took the jugs off their hooks for most of the pics so they would not obscure the left hand side of the tank. The ferts travel through mini-airline tubing along the overhead cable guides, down to the CO2 Diffuser where they enter the water.​
ELECTRICAL
There are WAY too many electrical plugs in this system! And too many wires! It took two power strips to accommodate them, all against the right hand wall. Inevitably every electrical cord ws too long, and the extra was coiled up and strapped neatly. But when you put all that neatly coiled wire together, it still looks like a rat's nest. So I got a plastic container, drilled multiple holes in the bottom, and just dumped all the excess wire in it, as a form of "wire management". The holes in the bottom are in case something leaks. If that happens, I want the wire dry, or in the wost case dripping, but not sitting in standing water. With bulkheads I'm assuming you have to plan for the worst.

The little black boxes you can see on the end of many of the plugs are X10 units. I have an X10 controller in my other stand that turns the lights and such on and off on a programmed schedule by way of these units. But they make it a bit more messy. And they are all so large, they won't easily fit on a power strip. So I had to get little 6" extension cords to connect them to the power strip.​
ACCESSORIES
Lights - On the front top right of the right door is a little pressure switch I installed, which turns on the three 20w halogen cabinate lights I put in the stand. So the lights come on when you open the door. Most of these pics were taken without a flash, using the cabinate lights.

Screamer - Also, barely visible, on the back left edge, halfway up, is one of those "Screamer" things. So all hell is supposed to break loose sonically if my tank starts leaking - something I've seen before.  

Bracing -In various locations you can probably see extra vertical 2x2's I installed, along with a good number of steel angle brackets. The stand just did not look that sturdy to me. So I braced it. Tank was too much work to have it come crashing down!

Cable Raceways - all along the top, suspended a bit below the bottome of the tank (to avoid possible water problems) are many cable raceways. Some hold fert lines. Some hold low voltage electric lines (like pH and temp sensors) and others carry 120v wires.

Labels - every wire plugged into the a power connector has a clearly printed label on it to identify it. Too many wires to be wondering which one is which!

Emergency Drainage - one bulkhead, in the middle of the tank, has a single 3/4" hose attached under the ball valve (all the bulkheads have ball valves) which is coiled up behind the tank, close to a sliding glass door. In case of an emergency, like a leak, you just roll the hose out the door, turn the ball valve a 1/4 turn, and the tank empties itself out the hose - REAL FAST. I figure this beats it all going on the family room floor.​
Like I said. In pictures, it ain't pretty. It's a lot of functionality in a small space. But so far, it seems to work, and is reasonably easy to work with. If that changes, you can be sure I'll let you know! :icon_wink


PS - I forgot to mention one thing... Complicated or not, there's not one drop of water on bottom of the inside of that stand. roud: 

PPS - I should mention that the emergency drain ball valve has a little tiny yellow rubber ducky hanging from it. So when I'm away traveling, the instructions to the kids are easy - "If the tank starts leaking, roll the hose outside, and _pull down on the rubber ducky_!"


----------



## Safado

Aint Pretty??? I am drooling. I wish my stand looked that nice, and had that equipment :icon_bigg Seriously, it looks like you are going to have one awe inspiring tank!


----------



## Hop

That's quite impressive scolley!!! What a great set up! I'm a little concerned over the wiring down there. Have you considered a Aquacontroller Jr to aid with all the power strips and timers? I just ordered one for my salt water set up. Also I am using two of the American DJ Professional PC-100A to help with the wiring mess. Wish I had a better pic of it, but this is all I have. They really help and are another level of security over a standard GFCI. Sorry for the poor pic, this was a wet-run of my sump system before my quarrentine tank was in place on top of the sump stand.


----------



## scolley

Yeah Hop, thanks I have considered the Aquacontroller Jr. But it doesn't do much for me. All it does is X10 control and pH and temp monitoring/controlling. Plus it's more money. This is mostly stuff I moved from my 20g. The Aquacontroller Jr. will not eliminate but one wire - one power wire, since the pH and Temp are both controlled by it. In my case, that takes 2 power cords because I have separate controllers. IMO it's a lot of money to eliminate one wire. It doesn't help at all on the X10 side because I've got that controller in another stand. So it is not contributing to the wire rat's nest.

The American DJ Professional PC-100A doesn't do anything either, unless I'm missing something. It's just a switch. I don't need a big switch. I need less wire. And the PC-100A just switches things that still have a whole lot of wire, just hidden somewhere out of sight. Well, in my case, out of sight means in the stand.

I appreciate the suggestions though. Please let me know if I'm missing something here. Thanks.


----------



## Hop

Yeah the X10 technology is weak, so I would go with the a DC8 and a DC4. They are direct connect without the need for the interface. The programming allows for on/off with your co2, all timers, dosing pumps, keep heat consistent, turn on fans if temp gets to a certain point and shut lights off if it gets even hotter. Here is a link to a good package deal
Jr w/ DC 8. But I hear you on more money. This salt water tank is killing me, my kids have been eating raman noodles for a month :icon_bigg Seriously though I would get the Aqaucontroller Jr, or start saving for one. It would narrow down the timers and such and allow for some safety...

Again great set up, probably the most thought out freshwater system i've seen in a long time!!!


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## Cheeseybacon

Wow, that's some pretty crazy stuff!
I believe the craziest equipment setup I had seen to date was Sn8ke's setup, but this definately surpasses it. Incredible!


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks. Low tech it's not I'm afraid. Which brings some challenges of getting all that in one tank!

Hop - I had NOT seen the Aquacontroller Jr w/DC 8! That is indeed what I need. I'm sorry I didn't see that until now because that would be ideal. Now all I've got to do is find buyer for a used Milwaukee SMS 122, a used Aqua Logic Dual-Stage Temperature Controller, a used Belkin power strip, and a whole bunch of used Radio Shack X10 appliance modules. All together costing me more than the Aquacontroller!

Well, live and learn I suppose. :icon_frow

But FWIW, I'd still have a problem with too much wire in the stand. Though I would have a good bit less equipment.


----------



## m.lemay

That Aquacontroller Jr is the cats meow! My next tank will have one of those for control. It does everything I want and then some. I hadn't seen that one either.

Here's the thing: When I started out in this hobby, I went low budget and I accumulated stuff over a period of 4-5 years. If I had to buy all the stuff at once, it probably never would have happened.  

Marcel


Hop said:


> Yeah the X10 technology is weak, so I would go with the a DC8 and a DC4. They are direct connect without the need for the interface. The programming allows for on/off with your co2, all timers, dosing pumps, keep heat consistent, turn on fans if temp gets to a certain point and shut lights off if it gets even hotter. Here is a link to a good package deal
> Jr w/ DC 8. But I hear you on more money. This salt water tank is killing me, my kids have been eating raman noodles for a month :icon_bigg Seriously though I would get the Aqaucontroller Jr, or start saving for one. It would narrow down the timers and such and allow for some safety...
> 
> Again great set up, probably the most thought out freshwater system i've seen in a long time!!!


----------



## Hop

Aye, Mucho wire. That I think will be inevitable.... I'm still trying to figure out how to combat that myself :icon_conf 


scolley said:


> Thanks folks. Low tech it's not I'm afraid. Which brings some challenges of getting all that in one tank!
> 
> Hop - I had NOT seen the Aquacontroller Jr w/DC 8! That is indeed what I need. I'm sorry I didn't see that until now because that would be ideal. Now all I've got to do is find buyer for a used Milwaukee SMS 122, a used Aqua Logic Dual-Stage Temperature Controller, a used Belkin power strip, and a whole bunch of used Radio Shack X10 appliance modules. All together costing me more than the Aquacontroller!
> 
> Well, live and learn I suppose. :icon_frow
> 
> But FWIW, I'd still have a problem with too much wire in the stand. Though I would have a good bit less equipment.


 :icon_conf


----------



## Bert H

Steve, that's really impressive! You could do a how-to clinic with your set-up! roud: Do you hire out?


----------



## Silent Running

Wow, Steve, that's looking great (top to bottom)! I can't wait to watch it grow in!!!


----------



## SnyperP

If everything is in it's final place, why not cut the excess wires down and solder them back together? Or is this considered taboo with electrical wiring? Well, that would probably void the warranty on any items in which you still have a warranty left. Maybe some electricians can chime in and see if they can give you an advice.


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## uncskainch

That's some techy looking tank stand, Steve! Very impressive!

As for the wires, can you work with zip ties or velcro cable ties? Those are really handy for getting extra lengths of wire safely tied up and out of the way so you can see what you're doing to work in there. I've seen the zip ties at Home Depot and the velcro cable ties are sold at most big-box office supply stores (for taming your computer cables). 

This is going to be a fun project to watch!


----------



## scolley

uncskainch said:


> As for the wires, can you work with zip ties or velcro cable ties? Those are really handy for getting extra lengths of wire safely tied up and out of the way so you can see what you're doing to work in there.


Wow! Not sure were to start responding folks. Thanks for the kind words, but let me address the WIRE problem...

I've got cable ties now. They're not velcro. They are the plastic "click strap" kind. The don't come off easily, but they work pretty well. IMO the problem is not ties. It's the volume of wire.

When you count the extra cord on the big power strip, there are 12 cords there. 14 if you want to count the extra cord on the pH probe and temp probes. 16 if you want to count the two 6 foot cords coming out of the temp controller to plug a heater and chiller into. And some of them are really thick! The cord on the back of my PC monitor is not as thick as some of these. It's nuts.

I think SnyperP really hit on the real solution - cutting the cords down to their shortest possible size. But I'm kind of hesitant to do that, since this works. And many of the cords cannot be cut really - like the probes. But on many of the other wires, they are so darned thick, I assume they have all kinds of shielding to prevent RF interference and such. And the chances of my messing that up is high if I start trying to splice on new plugs.

It does not look pretty (again, it's not quite so bad in person) but I have found that with the labels, I can reasonably quickly unstrap a cord, take it out of the appropriate cable raceway, and pull out a component.

I'll have to go chew on that problem a while, and think about what it will really buy me, and the risks it imposes.

Thanks for the feedback folks!


----------



## SnyperP

No matter what you decide to do, it is still amazing work! Were you a reefer in a previous life? =p


----------



## scolley

Thanks. No I've just got a serious case of reefer-envy!

I've wanted one for years, but two perceived obstacles have kept me out of it:

1) The apparent inability of reefers to hide all their equipment. I just don't like seeing hardware.
2) The apparent need for high levels of frequent maintenance.​
I'm on a mission to get a nice planted tank with those two considerations driven to practical minimum, without getting insane about it. And I think I can do it. roud:


----------



## Hop

scolley said:


> Thanks. No I've just got a serious case of reefer-envy!
> 
> I've wanted one for years, but two perceived obstacles have kept me out of it:
> 
> 1) The apparent inability of reefers to hide all their equipment. I just don't like seeing hardware.
> 2) The apparent need for high levels of frequent maintenance.​
> I'm on a mission to get a nice planted tank with those two considerations driven to practical minimum, without getting insane about it. And I think I can do it. roud:


I think you have done it scolley!

And not to take the thread away from the point, but when I got the bug and set out to build my reef tank I spent hours and hours addressing the two points you made and I think I have over come them both. True, the tank is not going to be here for another week or two, but I wanted to see zero equipment and hear NOTHING. In addition I set out with the mission that the tank would require less maintenence than my 125 planted. I think it will happen.

But anyways I think you have taken the best of both worlds and raised the bar for the planted tank world :icon_bigg


----------



## Buck

Do NOT let your insurance company see your science project...LOL !

Steve I dont know what to say man... this entire venture has been quite an experience for all of us because of the way you have detailed your journal from plain glass and plumbing parts to a well thought out creation !

I had to show my wife the equiptment photo... she says I cant play with you know more, you are a bad influence on the checkbook !! 

I guess this is my last post here...thanks alot ! :tongue: :icon_bigg


----------



## scolley

Buck said:


> I had to show my wife the equipment photo... she says I cant play with you know more, you are a bad influence on the checkbook !!
> 
> I guess this is my last post here...thanks alot ! :tongue: :icon_bigg


Gee Buck. That's really a bummer. I'll miss you here! But you can tell your wife that she's very perceptive, and in full agreement with my own wife. LOL

But I'd like to think of myself as a multi-faceted bad influence, and not just limit it with being stupid with money. I can be stupid with lots of things! I've seen myself do it. roud: 


Hop - please document how you achieve your objectives. And let me know where to read about it. Because if you can achieve a nice reef with no visible equipment, no noise, and little maintenance, I'm ready to dive in! If you'll pardon the pun.


Truth be told though, the glass is cool. And the reduced equipment is nice. And low maintenance is important for me since I travel a lot. But all that is just to facilitate the thing I have not mastered - how to paint a beautiful picture in that frame.

The tank and stand are just the canvas. Now I have to learn how to paint.


----------



## shuks

well put...Good analagy


----------



## BSS

So, let me get this straight...you built your own tank :icon_bigg ! 

This has to be one of the fastest exploding threads to hit this board in a while. Just got a chance to catch up on it. Those shots almost make it look like there's no glass even there. Very sweet. Great lookin' rig you got goin' there, Scolley!!


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks!

BSS - _You bet_ I built my own tank. Well, I didn't cut the glass. But I did everything else. When I started I had no idea what to do, but with access to info on the internet, and lots and lots of help from people on this board, it got done!

Some weekend if you got nothing to do (all weekend), and are bored to tears, you can take a look at this thread and read about the whole tank building project. It was a bear. But it got finished, and this thread is just the progression of that story.

If this thread gets much viewing, IMO it's not because of the merit of this particular thread. It's because my "little" tank building project was such an ordeal that lots of people just got caught up in the drama - a little tank building soap opera.

This thread is just kind of the next season. :icon_wink


----------



## scolley

*Algae!!!*

All the plants are growing. New leaves, new roots, shoots and runners. Even have some color developing. And 2 days of the Magum on the tank took out the initial haze in the water - so I assume that was silicone dust - not GW.

A few days ago I put the lights on a 4 hours at 108 watts, 4 hours at 216 watts, and 4 hours at 108 watts schedule.

And now the top of my sand is turning greenish. It clearly has algae growing on it. I cannot see any evidence of more. But this is a white surface, so I suppose it's like a canary in a coal mine - the first place you notice a problem.

Or maybe because it's white, and so reflective, the surface gets double the light (coming in and bouncing off). I don't know - never had sand.

Think I should dial back that duration of that 4 hour photo period. Or am I panicking over nothing?

Oh yeah, I forgot. In a couple of days I'm going away for jsut over a week. So it's not like I can monitor the algae. So, short of getting clear advice to the contrary here, I'm cutting moving to a [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] photoperiod. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> A few days ago I put the lights on a 4 hours at 108 watts, 4 hours at 216 watts, and 4 hours at 108 watts schedule.
> 
> And now the top of my sand is turning greenish.
> 
> Think I should dial back that duration of that 4 hour photo period. Or am I panicking over nothing?


Hey Steve,

Nice wires...  

Well, let me show you some predictions :

- DYI build a tank (5 months )
- Photo Album ( 2 months : Oh boy, Algae , I will be back)
- Algae ( 1 month : help )
- Photo Album ( I'm back : look at me )

So the algae are normal in a fresh tank. Especially in the white sand.
Everything must mature and it will take a week or 6.

I my high light tank I follow this schedule :

- ferts
10 mg/l NO3
0.5 mg/l PO4
1/3 dose micro
CO2 30 mg/l

- lights 8/9 hours max

3 hours 50%
3 hours 100%
3 hours 50%

So I would lower the total period of light till the tank has matured a bit.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Thanks PJAN! I've already made the change to my light schedule.

But it also seems you are suggesting a reduction of Micros down to 1/3 normal dosing as a tank starts out. Is that correct?


----------



## SCMurphy

The lower micros make sense when you think about how little plant biomass there is in the tank at start up. You might not have experienced this yet but if I were to take all of the plants out of one of my established tank, I would not be able to put them all back in. I can't plant a tank as thick as it will grow in. When you have an established biomass then start to up your micros.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Sean. I believe you, and I'll do it. But it makes no sense to me. I know I'm running the risk of devolving this conversation into an EI debate, but...

Why cut the micros if you aren't cutting the macros? The same reasoning about plant density should apply to either. Frankly, all density should affect is the uptake rate.

Everyone lives in fear of not keeping their macros up, and letting _nothing _ (micros included) bottom out. Seems to me if I keep my macros at normal levels, with reduced micros, I'm running the risk of bottoming out on a micro. Then I've got excess macros the plants can't use as well, and BINGO - we're back to algae again.


----------



## PJAN

I agree with Sean that ther is little biomass.
That's the point.
Understanding fertilization is very complex.

1) High light tanks - like yours- are reacting different than low light tanks.
To be short on this one : The need for higher NO3 and PO4 concentrations is a direct result of the high light + CO2. You can say the plants need a sort of overpressure of these macro's during the high light period. The growing speed is at maximum and the internal buffer of the plants will only last for an hour or so. After that point the macro's in the water will be the supplier. 
That's the reason why higher concentrations work out better in high-light tanks.
It's a bit strange that a high light tank doesn't do well with say 3 mg NO3, isn't it?
After all, there is NO3 available !
The overpressure makes it easy for a plant to get enough NO3 at the peak.

2) The micro's are very necessary of course. The whole chain ( macro's and micro's) has to be complete for optimal assimilation.
But, there is not a need for an overpressure of the micro's. They are taken active by the plant : they have certain receptors for uptake.

Too much miicro's can lead to algea. Especially in non-mature tanks. The bacterial stability is not optimal and the plants are just shooting roots and a few small leaves.

In my opinion it's better to calculate the biomass and dose according to it. 
If you put all your plants in one place... how much space will they take?
Perhaps 1/4 of the space?
So we need to dose micro's for these plants and 1/3 should be ok to start with during the beginnig ( say 4 - 6 weeks ).

3) the peak with the lights has several advantages.

2 lamps ( 108 Watt ) = low light
This will allow the plants to grow steady and easy. In fact under these low lights the plants can do with lower NO3/PO4 because everything is easy running.

4 lamps ( 208 Watt) or more lamps = high light. 
Now the plants need to have more NO3/PO4 etc and running low on there internal buffer. The overpressure of NO3/PO4 helps them out.

This high light period for 3 -4 hours is enough to keep the plants down and give them enough impulse to grow nicely with red leaves ( if they can)

A big advantage is that you can play with the growing speed of the plants by adjusting the totall high light hours. 3 hours is normal and 6 hours high light means turbo-boost. But also more worries if there are enough macro's available.

A smaller peak ( say 3 hours) will not punish you hard when you're forgot to dose macro's or running too low for some reason. It forgives you to a certain point.
Isn't that nice?

Gr.PJAN


----------



## scolley

Wow!

PJAN - I love the pressure concept. I haven't a clue as to what that really means biochemically, but it is easy to understand!

What a great explanation. That's d*mn near sticky worthy IMO.

So, either you are a world-class BS artist, or there is something to what you are saying. I'll follow your and Sean's advise... The lights are down to 3hx108w then 3hx216w then 3hx108w, and tomorrow I'll be doing a water change with massively reduced micros after that.

Thanks!

Oh yeah.. everything is pearling like no tomorrow (in high light) but I also had to do my first scraping of spot algae off the glass today too.


----------



## Georgiadawgger

Interesting PJAN...I've never heard of anything remotely like that before. Of course I'm only a botanist/ecologist...not a plant physiologist or met/mol expert. Is this an idea you came up with or is there a study on it? 

You are right though about the biomass part...but give that tank some time to fill out and then start your mega dosing routine


----------



## cprroy73

Scolley, I am just wondering what levels of ferts are you trying to keep.

When I started up my tank I ran 10 and 1 at first for a few weeks then once the plants really showed established growth I upped it to 15-20 and 1.5-2 and micros from day one but only half what I now dose. I dose 10mil flourish now every other day. My tank is 58gal. 

Are you still going to use the complete flourish line?


----------



## scolley

At the moment I'm doing a weekly water change, testing post water change, and dosing up to target levels. I'm not dosing more often as the uptake rate has been somewhat slow.

My targets are N - 12 to 14, P 1.2 to 1.4, and K 20 to 25. That is all Seachem liquids except for the prodigious amount of N and P that comes in with the tap water. On top of that I had been dosing 2X the manufacturers directed dose for TMG and Flourish Iron. And I've been using about 1/x the recommended does of Flourish Excel, both as an algaecide, and due to some peoples belief that it really help the HC I've got a lot of. And my CO2 stays between 28 and 38 ppm.

Yesterday, with both the massive pearling and newly arrived algae, I tested N & P, and while the P had only moved down to 1.0 or so, the N was 6, maybe 7. That was after 4 and 1/2 days. So there is some uptake.

I'm leaving for 8 days tomorrow, so I think I'll bump the N, P targets up a hair, and as per recommendations here, hit the water change volume with 1/2 doses on the micros.

And BTW - I will switch to dry ferts soon enough. Ripping through too much liquid to keep this up long. But I'm going to wait until the tank is thriving, using ferts I understand well first. Then I'll switch.


----------



## PJAN

Georgiadawgger said:


> Interesting PJAN...I've never heard of anything remotely like that before. Of course I'm only a botanist/ecologist...not a plant physiologist or met/mol expert. Is this an idea you came up with or is there a study on it?
> 
> You are right though about the biomass part...but give that tank some time to fill out and then start your mega dosing routine


I am a plant physiologist. Studied 6 years for it...

Nutrition uptake by aquatic plants is much more comlex than everybody thought 10 years ago. It's an active and selective process. And this process fluctuates under different circumstances ( e.g. high light and/or high CO2).
CO2 has also an optimum : around 30 mg/l. Also an overprussure thing.
(some stuff can be found on the internet about it)
I did my own investigations on aquatic plant growth. Not published. But with scientific results.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Georgiadawgger

PJAN said:


> I am a plant physiologist. Studied 6 years for it...
> 
> Nutrition uptake by aquatic plants is much more comlex than everybody thought 10 years ago. It's an active and selective process. And this process fluctuates under different circumstances ( e.g. high light and/or high CO2).
> CO2 has also an optimum : around 30 mg/l. Also an overprussure thing.
> (some stuff can be found on the internet about it)
> I did my own investigations on aquatic plant growth. Not published. But with scientific results.
> 
> Gr. PJAN



Nice!! You need to get them into a journal...if you want me to review if for you I can help you out. 

I stayed away from physiology...I was much more interested in conbio, population ecology, community ecology, plant/animal interactions, etc. Although there was a chapter of my dissertation that needed someone with electron microscopy experience....(unfinished business for a future grad student). The only plant physiology experience I have is with my research (heavy metal hyperaccumultion of nickel, zinc, cadmium, etc and translocation into shoots, chelation, etc...)


----------



## scolley

OMG! PJAN coming out about why he seems to know so much! With Georgiadawgger following close behind! I had been paying close attention to these guys. Now I've got to pay _real close _ attention.

And you saw it here first folks! roud:


----------



## scolley

*2 weeks in...*

Here are a few clickable 2-week progress pics...

 

 




I suppose the only things worth commenting on are:

1) I've got snails. But I don't want to move my loaches over yet. I'd rather give the HC a bit more time to root well.

2) On the HC topic, all along the border between the substrates is HC. Or at least it's supposed to be. Clearly little bits of riccia got stuck in all of it, and now I've got a riccia border! The HC is taking hold and growing, but the riccia is growing LOTS faster. And pulling out the riccia rips out the HC. So I suppose I've got an HC/Riccia combo border in the making. Good thing riccia is indigenous!

3) I had a lot more lily pads in the top left, but I injured them in the water change and had to cut them off. :icon_frow I'll have to learn how to accommodate that in the future.

4) I've got algae on the sand and the glass. But as per recommendations, I've changed my lighting schedule, and I'll be backing down on the micros.​
But even with all that - Man! Am I ever loving this!!!


----------



## andyg

Wow! Looking fantastic.
Amazing how you can get that block of water to stay around your plants. :icon_wink 
The clearness of that glass will never stop to amaze me.


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## yznj99

Everything looks so clean! Can't believe the tank just started! roud:


----------



## kzr750r1

This is another reason to read your thread Scolley.
Lot's of great advice that confirms some personal observation.

Between you and Marc it confirms I have to get more light!

Not dosing so heavy and getting better results with only 108w Tek over a 55g.

Time to go price another Tek fixture this time with four 54w bulbs and use this on for an orchid bed or somthing.

Thanks for the explanation of your statements PJAN.


----------



## PJAN

Looking good Steve.

De Ludwiga has already red colored leaves halfway the tank, means enough light.
The algea on the glass/sand ( and in future : on the wood.... ) are normal at this early stage.
The only thing you have to worry about is growing healthy plants and learn to use your powerfull lights.
Also don't prune plants for the next 4 weeks, let it grow. Even if it becomes a dense bush. 
Half the dose of micro is ok for now. Till the tank has fully grown - more biomass - it's enough. Maybe in about 3 weeks you can up the micro's. 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Buck

Nice growth Steve... as it grows in, the ferns presence are growing on me in there as well...LOL 
This is making me want to put my additional lights back on my tank ! You are gonna have fun keeping up with the ludwigia in there, that stuff grows like gangbusters dont it ? :icon_bigg


----------



## m.lemay

Wow steve, great growth. roud: The hairgrass is filling in quite quickly.

The right side of the tank looks awesome, but somethings missing on the left side. I'm gonna have to think about it for awhile before I can put my finger on it.

On the ricccia stuck in HC matter. You might have to pull it out and do triage.

The bunch you gave me was the same way. I took out a cookie sheet put some water in the bottom of it. I put on my sharpest pair of glasses. I got some tweezers and a bright light and proceeded to seperate it all. It took me about an hour. Just make sure you got lots of time with no distractions. It was actually a Zen moment for me. :icon_lol: 

Marcel


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks.


PJAN - too late on the "No pruning". I had some lotus leaves that turned bright red (beautiful really), but, unlike most of the others, they weren't new leaves and appeared to have sustained some injury prior to planting. - they had some large spots that were dying away. I took them out, just for the health of the plant, and to keep nitrates down.

And I also pruned two HUGE leave on the sword on the left. I know I'm supposed to let things grow right now, but I did not want that plant to get it into it's head that such massive leaves were going to be acceptable! Ever.



Buck - The ferns are happy, but they've gotta go when the tank gets rolling a bit more. They look lush, but visually it creates three evenly spaced visual "chunks" in tank - Trunk : Ferns : AlienBuddah . I've gotta break it up again, and start working the left:right balance problem on the tank. But I've got time for that.



Marcel - There's NO WAY I'm pulling that HC to extract the riccia! Believe it or not, I did what you suggest for about 2 hours before I planted it. My problem is that there is a LOT of HC, maybe a dense square foot of it, and I wear bi-focals. It was just too hard to do for these old eyes, as the blooming riccia population will attest.

No, riccia is indigenous. So as long as it doesn't change to it's evil submersed form, I'm happy for it to remain. All I want is an indigenous carpet plant. If HC merely serves to hold the riccia down, so be it.



Andyg - I wish you could see it in person. The water cube illusion is so cool, I am thrilled that I went through all the pain of building this beast. In fact, if you look, you can see that while the seams on the back are not at all large, the seams on the front are much smaller. The RTV silicone I finally put on the front has worked out well. I'm sorry I didn't rip the back off (a second time!) and then resilicone that with the RTV so I could use razor small seams there too. But I was just beat.

So it ain't perfect, but it's still real nice IMO. If you could see the illusion up close, I suspect you'd agree.



kzr750r1 - I played with short bursts of "noon-time" very high light on my 20g and got good results. Too long a high light period, and I got algae. Too short, no reds. What I did not learn though was PJAN's suggestion about keeping the low light period shorter to keep the plants down (you mean not to high? Right PJAN?). That is an interesting concept that I'm anxious to see if it works out here.



yznj99 - Thanks. Any success so far comes from paying close attention to what people have to teach here on this board. All the books I've bought aren't worth a hill of beans next to what people have to teach here.



PJAN - BTW, I'm still knocked out to find out why you can speak with such authority! roud: Based on looking at your tanks, I was ready to just chalk it up to experience, which you also appear to have an abundence of.


----------



## awrieger

I don't know if I'm more impressed with your tank Steve, or PJAN's knowledge!


----------



## Urkevitz

I am liking the java fern now, looks like a path going into the darkness.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> Thanks folks.
> 
> 
> PJAN - too late on the "No pruning".
> And I also pruned two HUGE leave on the sword on the left. I know I'm supposed to let things grow right now, but I did not want that plant to get it into it's head that such massive leaves were going to be acceptable! Ever.
> 
> kzr750r1 - I played with short bursts of "noon-time" very high light on my 20g and got good results. Too long a high light period, and I got algae. Too short, no reds. What I did not learn though was PJAN's suggestion about keeping the low light period shorter to keep the plants down (you mean not to high? Right PJAN?). That is an interesting concept that I'm anxious to see if it works out here.


Allright. A few dead leaves are ok. But stay away from the Ludwiga etc.
You discovered now that Echinodorus species are not a very good choise in a planted tank. Too big and dominating the scene. That's ok ofcourse, if you want it. I think you should consider to swapp the Echinodorus with another plant. They develop also a huge root system.
It's better to place dominating plants ( Lotus, Echinodorus etc.) in a small bucket with some clay, peat e.g. So the roots can not spread trough the tank and compete ( or even destroy) other plants roots.
My big special green lotus has also his own bucket... and can be placed everywhwere I want without disturbing his roots...

The lights.
Sorry if I made a mistake or so in my poor English.
The low light period is "easy growth"
The high light period is " turbo growth".

The hours of high light is very important. This period will get the plants to grow fast, give them color etc.

You start out with 3 - 3 - 3 hours. The middle period is always high light.
3-3-3
low-high-low

After 4 weeks :

3-4-3

Most of the time the last schedule will satisfy you. But in the beginning you're not going to push the plants to the max and only use 3 hours period of high light.
It's a bit of experience and also depends of plant species. 
If you have only ferns... the schedule will be :

4-2-4

If you have more fast growing or demanding plants, the schedule is a bit higher :

3-4-3

or if you want to have a huge amount of plants and like pruning :

3 - 5 - 2

The longer the high light period, the higher the levels of NO3 and PO4 must be. Too long period of high light in a non matured tank, will give algea.
So in the beginning you have a rather short period of high light, just to keep the plants and the boss ( Steve here :icon_bigg ) happy. The biomass ( plants and bacteria) must develop a balance and that takes some time. Normally a week or 6.

To be very clear on this one : the high light period is to keep the plants down and red if they can. The low light period is to keep the plants just growing with no need for speed.
For dummies :
low light = keep the boss happy ( less algea)
high light = keep the plants happy 

Pfff. 




scolley said:


> PJAN - BTW, I'm still knocked out to find out why you can speak with such authority! roud: Based on looking at your tanks, I was ready to just chalk it up to experience, which you also appear to have an abundence of.


I think you will be even more shocked in the future :icon_idea


----------



## scolley

PJAN said:


> I think you will be even more shocked in the future :icon_idea


I can't wait for this. You have a controlling interest in Tropica, right? That's a Dutch concern I believe...

Thanks for the idea of the bucket. Great idea, but it may be too late for me.

And I'm really caught up about the swords. I know they get big, but my choices in North American plants aren't that great. Or at least when you start to look for large leaved green plants to go along that sides of the tank. I don't want smaller leaved, or red, plants along the edges if I can help it. And frankly, I think most of the commonly available North American stem plants (all small leaved) are butt-ugly, except Ludwigia.

But I do believe I may start looking for possible sword plant replacements. Especially before those roots get a chance to wrap around all that hardware and cypress-anchoring slate under the substrate. Thanks for the tip!


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> Time to go price another Tek fixture this time with four 54w bulbs and use this on for an orchid bed or something.


I should probably mention my reasoning for getting the 6x54w Tek, rather than the 4x54w.

The 4 lamp has a 2 banks of 2 lamps, with the 6 lamp having a 2 lamp bank and a 4 bulb bank. Both allow the opportunity of running 2x54w and 4x54w, which I wanted for the purposes mentioned by PJAN previously.

But since the Tek's get considerably cheaper per lamp as you increase lamps, it seemed that I'd gamble on the 6 lamp. If I never turned all 6 on, I've have spent a bit too much money. But if I ever wanted something like a 2-4-6-4-2 schedule, or a really cranking 2-6-2 or insane 4-6-4, I'd be SOL, and wishing I'd spent a bit more out of the gate.

It seemed a good risk to take - an investment in insuring that my lighting options remained very open, and very flexible.


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> I can't wait for this. You have a controlling interest in Tropica, right? That's a Dutch concern I believe...


 :icon_frow 
Denmark I beleive.
I wish I had controlling interest..I now have a hard time to collect plant species. Wish I could just grab the plants I want :icon_bigg 
Eldorado for aquascaping !

Well, good luck with searching for another local plant species. I know : some can be very uggly. Maybe you should try to use some more Ludwiga.
There are many different Ludwiga ( small or big leaves, green or red ), but I don't know if they are all local ( you're area).

Also you're maybe looking into a too small local area?
I use only locally plant species from the planet Earth...the gallaxy is big.. roud: 

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

I'm keeping the species to North American, and only those that can also be found in the Gulf Coast states. It's supposed to be a biotope, or a reasonable approximation.

I may be fortunate enough to have some Ludwigia brevipes soon. And I've to a few other channels for additional plants. My big problem is getting a plant that will work in that left corner, big leaved and green preferably. And of course, North American, Gulf Coast states distribution. I'll find something.

And I'm not sure why I thought Tropica was Dutch.


----------



## Oqsy

scolley, pulled the first stem of brevipes today 
also found what looks like an emersed ludwigia growing very near my house, and pulled a few stems... i'm going to trim the emersed leaves / flowers as they start to wither, and see what pops up (if anything) when it starts to fill it with submerged growth (if it does). It's an experiment, but if it turns out to be a ludwigia sp., then I'll have access to TONS of *BIG* stems, and if I'm lucky, it'll be something a bit more uncommon than repens. I'll keep you posted on that front as well as the progress of your brevipes pile.

Oqsy


----------



## scolley

Oqsy said:


> scolley, pulled the first stem of brevipes today
> also found what looks like an emersed ludwigia growing very near my house, and pulled a few stems... i'm going to trim the emersed leaves / flowers as they start to wither, and see what pops up (if anything) when it starts to fill it with submerged growth (if it does). It's an experiment, but if it turns out to be a ludwigia sp., then I'll have access to TONS of *BIG* stems, and if I'm lucky, it'll be something a bit more uncommon than repens. I'll keep you posted on that front as well as the progress of your brevipes pile.
> 
> Oqsy


I hope you weren't planning on shipping Monday! I'm going on vacation tomorrow for a week. Can you float the brevipes or something? And what's the sp.? My curiosity is well peaked.


----------



## Oqsy

wow, you're fast... no, i meant the first *stem* was trimmed, about 6", single stem. I'm planning on collecting several in another tank before I ship... at first glance, it appears that the sp. of ludwigia I've found *might* be decurrens or peploides montevidensis... i'll take a pic of the stems I've got right now (keep in mind the leaves are from emersed growth).

Oqsy


----------



## scolley

Oqsy said:


> wow, you're fast... no, i meant the first *stem* was trimmed, about 6", single stem. I'm planning on collecting several in another tank before I ship... at first glance, it appears that the sp. of ludwigia I've found *might* be decurrens or peploides montevidensis... i'll take a pic of the stems I've got right now (keep in mind the leaves are from emersed growth).
> 
> Oqsy


Cool! I'll look forward to the pics!

No, I'm not fast. I just happen to be sitting at my PC making a packing list. :icon_wink


----------



## Oqsy

here it is.. crappy picture, but it might be enough to tip some of our plant experts following this thread in the right direction.


----------



## scolley

I thought that's a bit like what brevipes looked like. But it looks just like my picture of L. palustris, also North American, which would be AWESOME! They get intense red leaves in high light, green otherwise. That would be too cool!

Any opinions anybody?


----------



## scolley

Oops. Gotta take that back. The leaves look the same, but L. palustris leaves are opposite, your picture looks distichous. Bummer.


----------



## Buck

I must be nuts or something but I happen to like the look of the swords and they are very easy to control by doing just what you did...clip a leaf off. It actually keeps the plant looking fresh too because it throws out a beautiful new leaf fairly quickly. roud:


Urkevitz said:


> I am liking the java fern now, looks like a path going into the darkness.


Thats the same way I looked at it, I thought in some weird way it made the tank look deeper.
But alas, they are not North American so I agree they have to go, shameful as it is... :tongue: :icon_bigg 

Back to the sword...if you do remove them, I like PJAN'S idea of using more ludwigia , they are just a great plant, you can bush grow them, vine grow them ... they are a sculptors dream when they start crankin' ! 
I'll have to dig up a photo of the ludwigia variety I was growing a while back Steve. I grabbed a few stems from a small pond that surrounds the fourth hole at a golf course not far from me. The guys thought I was nutz...after we walked off the green I grabbed the ice bag we had from the cooler and clipped some stems...they grew beautifully in my tank and the leaves stayed small. Eh...one photo a thousand words....BRB


----------



## Buck

Here it is, Im not sure if you would be interested but we may be able to get you some stems of this , chances are it could also be found in a pond around you since we live so close. They are a beautiful plant and "North American" . :wink: 

Here they are in my 56G in the right front corner...











Closeup of the same plants


----------



## scolley

Hey Buck, you ninja posted on me! I was typing a (typically long) response, and you snuck this one in!

Yeah! I want some of that! How do I get some!

After this I'll post my other long winded reply...


----------



## scolley

Thanks Buck. I should be more clear...

SWORDS (E. cordifolius in this case)
It is not my intention to put Ludwigia where I have the swords. IMO big leaved, green plants are what I need in the "corners". But it had been my assumption that I could just keep clipping leaves back, as you suggest Buck. Let's keep in mind here, I am still a newbie, about 14 months into this game... paying attention, but still learning something new everyday. So mistakes for me are not _unusual_. :hihi: 

But PJAN's post did make me remember what happened when I decided that my last sword was too big for my 20g. I pulled it out, and it decided to take about 1/2 of my substrate with it!

Now I've got all this slate under my cypress. It it gets intertwined in that - it's there for good. So I have to make a decision soon about the swords.

LUDWIGIA
This is the saving grace IMO of indigenous North American plants, form a visual beauty perspective anyway.

The tank is broken into two sides, and my intent was to fill a good part of either (or both) sides with what ever type of Ludwigia looked best. Right now, all I've got is L. repens as my ordered arcuata (which for all the world looked like brevipes) turned to mush. So maybe Oqsy will have something exciting. roud: 

Or if you find something cool on the golf course again Buck, please let me know! I'm itching for more nice Ludwigia to try.


----------



## Buck

I know the golf course owners and its only 15 minutes down the road, I'll take a look this week for some nice clippings. Hopefully the lack of rain lately hasnt hurt the pond's flora. I'll bring a bag and see what I can do. It was one of the most successful and worthwhile plant's I have ever collected locally. :wink:

Have fun in NH


----------



## plantbrain

PJAN said:


> 1) High light tanks - like yours- are reacting different than low light tanks.
> To be short on this one : The need for higher NO3 and PO4 concentrations is a direct result of the high light + CO2. You can say the plants need a sort of overpressure of these macro's during the high light period. The growing speed is at maximum and the internal buffer of the plants will only last for an hour or so. After that point the macro's in the water will be the supplier.
> That's the reason why higher concentrations work out better in high-light tanks.
> It's a bit strange that a high light tank doesn't do well with say 3 mg NO3, isn't it?
> After all, there is NO3 available !
> The overpressure makes it easy for a plant to get enough NO3 at the peak.


I think there muight be some translation issues here, but uptake is driven by a few things: pH, Temp and Concentration.

Perhasps concentration is what you might be thinking about?
Uptake is driven by enzyme kinetics.

As the uptake rate increases, the reserve for the plants to operate their enzymes efficently does as well.

Minimum and limiting levels of nutrients are easy to find.
Natural NO3 levels are 0.1ppm or less in many ecosystem yet lush plant growth with rich CO2 and far more light that we can add.

But it's being replaces as fast as it's being taken up, we can use dosing pumps etc, but stable levels of nutrients, high or low levels need to be provided.

I've likened this to driving a car, the faster you go, the more gas you will use.



> But, there is not a need for an overpressure of the micro's. They are taken active by the plant : they have certain receptors for uptake.


Well, this is easy to test, add less and see. I add as much as needed to provide good levels for a high light CO2 enriched tank. Need= any negative plant growth or coloration.

The other parameters are kept at non limiting levels and then this level(Traces) is the dependent variable.

Cu and Fe use the same transportor in many plants.
Chelators also play a role here.
NO3 and PO4 uptake and many nutrients are active as well. 

The traces are just needed in lesser amounts, but concentration will drive uptake at higher levels, this can be seen in natural systems also.




> Too much miicro's can lead to algea. Especially in non-mature tanks. The bacterial stability is not optimal and the plants are just shooting roots and a few small leaves.


This is simply not true aboyut the micro's=algae.
I have added up to 200mls of Flourish to a 130liter tank for a week, no algae at all. I routinely add 5mls per 80 liters 3-4 times a week, no algae. That has been going on for well over a deacde.

If, as you contend, excess causes algae..............where is my algae?
The algae are not limited in any planted tank. 

algae are much smaller and have far less need than plants for nutrients. 
They are also in a completely different ecological niche.

As far as bacteria and maturity, adding the old dirty sand or filter sponge dirt from an estblished tank will solve the bacterial issue and start the tank like a mature tank from the first day.

You remove what is present in mature tank and add it to the new tank's gravel.



> In my opinion it's better to calculate the biomass and dose according to it.
> If you put all your plants in one place... how much space will they take?
> Perhaps 1/4 of the space?
> So we need to dose micro's for these plants and 1/3 should be ok to start with during the beginnig ( say 4 - 6 weeks ).
> 
> 3) the peak with the lights has several advantages.
> 
> 2 lamps ( 108 Watt ) = low light
> This will allow the plants to grow steady and easy. In fact under these low lights the plants can do with lower NO3/PO4 because everything is easy running.
> 
> 4 lamps ( 208 Watt) or more lamps = high light.
> Now the plants need to have more NO3/PO4 etc and running low on there internal buffer. The overpressure of NO3/PO4 helps them out.
> 
> This high light period for 3 -4 hours is enough to keep the plants down and give them enough impulse to grow nicely with red leaves ( if they can)
> 
> A big advantage is that you can play with the growing speed of the plants by adjusting the totall high light hours. 3 hours is normal and 6 hours high light means turbo-boost. But also more worries if there are enough macro's available.
> 
> A smaller peak ( say 3 hours) will not punish you hard when you're forgot to dose macro's or running too low for some reason. It forgives you to a certain point.
> Isn't that nice?
> 
> Gr.PJAN


Yes, less light is definitely better than too much.

Many folks in the USA seem to believe more light is better, this is not true andf most people can grow anythiung they desire at less light, 2w/gal is good for most any plant.

As they increased the lighting, they also needed to scale up the CO2 and then the NPK traces etc and so on down the line.........

Then they complain about having to prune often

But if you drive things at maximum growth rates, then lower the light, you now have a very robust dosing rotuine where the plants are only limited by the light intensity, which is where we want to be.......


And the algae is much less with less light, as well having more time to to respond to neglected tanks.

More light is not better. 
The high light at midday works well.

It saves heat, electricity also, but many only have one light bulb, so not everyone has those options.

If you want to slow things down even more, use non CO2 methods, trhen the rate of growth is slow enough that most of the nutrients can be dosed once a week or less, not at all with many species if a good fish load is added and fed well.

Most of my tanks are non CO2 these days. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr

www.BarrReport.com


----------



## plantbrain

SCMurphy said:


> The lower micros make sense when you think about how little plant biomass there is in the tank at start up. You might not have experienced this yet but if I were to take all of the plants out of one of my established tank, I would not be able to put them all back in. I can't plant a tank as thick as it will grow in. When you have an established biomass then start to up your micros.


Well said Sean.

I referred to this as plant "momentum" sometime ago with Jeff at Sfbaaps. 
Once established, they take off. I think the substrate and root/bacteria colonies also might play a significant role.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

PJAN said:


> I am a plant physiologist. Studied 6 years for it...
> 
> Nutrition uptake by aquatic plants is much more comlex than everybody thought 10 years ago. It's an active and selective process. And this process fluctuates under different circumstances ( e.g. high light and/or high CO2).
> CO2 has also an optimum : around 30 mg/l. Also an overprussure thing.
> (some stuff can be found on the internet about it)
> I did my own investigations on aquatic plant growth. Not published. But with scientific results.
> 
> Gr. PJAN


Then we should work together then.
I've got tons of data.
And am supporting it slowly within the BarrReport and articles.

Folks at University of Florida, Demark and Japan have said it's far more complex than any hobbyist suggested.

Back in the 1970's and 1980's and some good research lately in the last 10 years also.

I've nagged folks for high CO2 levels, Bowes, Van et al showed CO2 at 30ppm was about the max level at any light level but the max light levels for several fast grow weeds topped out at about 500-600 micro moles photons/m^2/sec.
Bowes is a past professor on mine and very sharp on gas exchange and molecular aspects.

I kill aquatic weeds here in the USA and work with Lars Anderson at UC Davis.
I also work with marine plants and macro algae.

The issue I think many have is knowing how to both kill the weeds and also to grow them.

Same with testing thing with aquarium plants.
We need to control things independently (therefore non limiting) to work on a single dependent variable like CO2 or NO3 etc.

Few aquarist can do that if they have trouble growing plants and those that can do it, are unwilling to destroy their tank to answer such a question.

Plant Physiologist are not so kind

I add things and see if I can push things to maximum levels and not just the minimal levels.

We need to explore *both sides * of this concentrational level.
It is poor science not to explore the maximal levels, see Shelford's law of tolerances and compare that to Liebig's law of minimums.

At what levels do we see negative plant responses from CO2? NH4?

NO3=> none known, fish okay but Amano shrimp died at 100ppm +(LD 50)
PO4= unknown upper limit, 2-4ppm produces no algae and intense growth, reduced Green spot glass algae.
K+= no known upper limit, likely salinity type stress beyond a 100ppm+
GH(Ca and Mg), no known upper limit, 25 degrees
Traces, as mentioned previously, 2 ppm of fe as a proxy for all traces using either Tropica master grow (DTPH chelator) or SeaChem Flourish (Gluconate chealtor complex). produced no adverse effects over 3 weeks test frames/times blocks.

If you wish, we can discuss things further in another thread or off list etc.

My focus here is to help folks grow plants better and dispell many myths that have been long held in the hobby.

If I can help someone to understand why the observations are this way, then they can help others and eventually there will no longer be myths, instead, they will be more concerned about aquascapes and designs, than algae and how to grow the plants.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## BSS

Steve - not sure it's what you are looking for, but I've noted both H. micranthemoides and M. umbrosum growing in a pond just behind my house here in central Florida. There is also a short, needle-sized looking reddish plant, which I'm guessing is some form of Ludwigia, though I haven't done any research on it yet. If you're interested in trying any and/or all of the above, let me know. I'll send them up gratis.

Good progress, my friend!
Brian.


----------



## scolley

Hey Brian. That's a kind offer! Thanks!

I grew up on the Gulf Coast, and just got tired of H. micranthemoides. I didn't know what it was. But I knew when I'd seen enough of it. And that was early on. That stuff really is a weed. 

M. umbrosum is better. But I'm just not looking for green stem plants. I'm getting my greens elsewhere. I'm hoping to get reds from the stems. IE - that needle-sized looking reddish plant sounds really interesting! Could be Ludwgia arcuata. That would be great.

I'd be thrilled to pay postage and some for the effort. If you can send some, please send me a PM. But I'm off for vacation tomorrow. So if I don't answer for a while, it's just because I'm gone!


Buck - thanks pal! I'm good for whatever it takes. But don't knock yourself out to do this. Do it the next time you are in that neighborhood.


Gosh! I love this board!


----------



## PJAN

plantbrain said:


> I think there muight be some translation issues here, but uptake is driven by a few things: pH, Temp and Concentration.


Tom, thanks for being gentle. My technical English is very rusty.
It's easy to finish me off by some badly choosen words.

Of course uptake, enzyme activation etc. are influenced by pH and temperature and light.
Also the influence of certain catalysts are important. 

Concentration of enzymes or better activating and deactivating enzymes by light, temperature, CO2, catalysts and or hormones play a key role in uptake rate of macro's and micro's.
The plant is such a complex organism that it maybe never will be understood how it works completely.

The nitrate-concentration in water is important as light has influence on the rate of growth. In low light supply of nitrates ( high or low) has little effect on the rate of growth. While in high light sitations less nitrate means less growth.
Also CO2 influences the uptake of NO3.
Also the transport of mobile elements can be too slow with high light conditions. Means trouble in the whole chain while certain elements are not available in time. Also a reason to have higher nutrient concentrations in the water.


Can I say safely that under high-light conditions and high CO2 concentrations higher NO3-levels are better to get healthy and optimum plant growth?
A lott more enzymes are activated and ready to go. 
Thats' why I like the word "overpressure" of NO3 etc. Maybe technical not correct.



plantbrain said:


> Minimum and limiting levels of nutrients are easy to find.
> Natural NO3 levels are 0.1ppm or less in many ecosystem yet lush plant growth with rich CO2 and far more light that we can add.


Well, there are different eco-systems and different plant species.
Interesting is to investigate the ecosystems of Bonito - Brazil.
Very lush plant growth, high CO2 levels ( up to 45 mg/l). But low on nitrates and or fosfates. But... the bottom is enriched by magnesium, N, P, K.
Also the plant growth was even better in streams were there was more NO3 available in the water column.



plantbrain said:


> This is simply not true aboyut the micro's=algae.
> I have added up to 200mls of Flourish to a 130liter tank for a week, no algae at all. I routinely add 5mls per 80 liters 3-4 times a week, no algae. That has been going on for well over a deacde.
> 
> As far as bacteria and maturity, adding the old dirty sand or filter sponge dirt from an estblished tank will solve the bacterial issue and start the tank like a mature tank from the first day.


Ah, interesting..we have a point of discussion.

Why is Steve developping algea? 
What I wanted to express here is that in case of Steve's non-matured tank, too much micro's in combination with high DOC can trigger algea.

The wood, old plant leaves, roots etc. causes high DOC as the bacteria are not matured yet. 
Your'e absolutely right about using bacteria-dirt ( sorry for my english) to help the tank starting. It's important to control the DOC levels in the water.

DOC with excess Iron ( for example) can trigger algea. I have done it many times. The green haze on the glass, I can replicate it everytime.
But I am talking here about a fresh tank, not matured !



plantbrain said:


> Yes, less light is definitely better than too much.
> 
> Many folks in the USA seem to believe more light is better, this is not true andf most people can grow anythiung they desire at less light, 2w/gal is good for most any plant.
> 
> As they increased the lighting, they also needed to scale up the CO2 and then the NPK traces etc and so on down the line.........
> 
> Then they complain about having to prune often
> 
> But if you drive things at maximum growth rates, then lower the light, you now have a very robust dosing rotuine where the plants are only limited by the light intensity, which is where we want to be.......
> 
> And the algae is much less with less light, as well having more time to to respond to neglected tanks.
> 
> More light is not better.
> The high light at midday works well.
> 
> It saves heat, electricity also, but many only have one light bulb, so not everyone has those options.


That's exact my point of view on light roud: 
Knowing how to use light is very powerfull. I am not very interested in ferts because I can control the healthy plant growth by adjusting the amount of light. 
As already said, low light has a lot of advantages like no big need of high concentrations of nitrates etc.

Still I use a high light period to get some coloring or so. *It's more a tool for aquascaping than it is needed for healthy plant growth.* This short period is also getting me out of troubles... 
Mmm, sometimes I am bit lazy about adding ferts...



plantbrain said:


> Then we should work together then.
> I've got tons of data.
> And am supporting it slowly within the BarrReport and articles.
> 
> Few aquarist can do that if they have trouble growing plants and those that can do it, are unwilling to destroy their tank to answer such a question.
> 
> Plant Physiologist are not so kind


 :icon_bigg 
Right! I am not so kind either. I still like to see what's happening if I do this or that. Sometimes popping champagne and sometimes grabbing a shovel to clean up the mess. 

Working together : allright. Use me as a second opnion. Maybe I know something extra.

So, letts not hijack Steve's thread further !


Gr. PJAN


----------



## unirdna

Wow, Steve! I just read the whole "old" thread. Your documentation is enviable. Stunning tank. I love that the giant hairgrass doesn't even reach the surface. As for that dwarf hairgrass...looks like that stuff was grown emersed. Maybe you'll get lucky and have a "smooth" transition of emerse to submersed growth, but if your like the most of us, be prepared for a die-off. It will, of course, regrow. But, watching it metamophose is somewhat painful .

Also, could I press you for a room photo. I would love to see how this tank affects the surroundings.

Ted


----------



## donaldbyrd

Steve
to echo everyone else I also have to say wow.. I just finished reading the previous threads, looks like it has been quite the trip, but the way the tank is looking I would say it had to have been worth it.


----------



## metfan581

I love the tank its aswome one of the best i have ever seen


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## Betowess

Wow Steve!! Haven't been around in awhile with the crunch at work et al. I haven't time yet to read all the posts, but, your tank's just wonderful. I love the 'scape and open feel. The semetry thing won't bother as one's view changes from different perspectives in the room.

I like tanks which give the fish (not plural if you still only have one SAE) some elbow room. The frameless is super clean and so totally clear looking.

I just started smiling when I saw the first pic come up on my laptop. I know you earned these kudos the old fashioned way... with elbow grease. P.S. You might try only running both banks of the TEK for maybe 5 hours, fwiw. It is a Tek right? Glad you got that light. Its just a fantastic tank. best regards, bob


----------



## BlueRam

I need to clear out some Ludwgia soon (a really red, "normal" and narrower leaf) so at some point I will post a picture and check the orgin (I might have a few other native plants) so just tell me what you would like and where to send it. :icon_bigg 



scolley said:


> M. umbrosum is better. But I'm just not looking for green stem plants. I'm getting my greens elsewhere. I'm hoping to get reds from the stems. IE - that needle-sized looking reddish plant sounds really interesting! Could be Ludwgia arcuata. That would be great.


----------



## travdawg

Steve,

Your tank is beautiful. I know you are going to nitpick the details, but he way I look at our hobby is that even when my 10 gallon has green dust all over it, & my plants are growing out of control, & I have crap uprooting, it still looks better than the tanks that my friends have with the red gravel & plastic plants with a sunken ship background.  With the work that you put into the tank BEFORE you put a gram of substrate in it, it was a work of art. No matter how your plants grow out, it is a beautiful thing!

I cant wait to see what it looks like grown in!!! Oh, & the artistry UNDER the hood is something else for you to take pride in! Some people could detract from what you have done by saying "if I had the money...." Well, whatever. I think that you could have taken the easy way & blew even more money finding an Amano style tank, but you did it all yourself. I wish I had that kind of grit in things with my HOBBY. I cant imagine what a dogged employee you would make!


----------



## nemesis1337

that my friend is truely amazing. i've been keeping track since the tank started. really glad you got it up and running. regarding the water level, aren't you worried fish might escape?


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the kind words folks. Will respond again soon to all. But I've got to get busy on my tank!

I just came back from a little over a week of vacation, and WOW! Not necessarily in a good way either...

The swords have _exploded_. They are huge! To think I cut off the big leaves.

The riccia is trying to take over! It could be that I've just discovered the way to create the maintenance free riccia lawn everyone wants. Just buy a bunch of HC, float it on the surface with some riccia so that it gets tangled, and plant it! The riccia uses the HC as an anchor, and looks like a lawn! I'm not sure if I'm glad or mad. At least it's native.

The glass was covered in green dust. Is coming off easy, but I guess my micros (and/or iron) was still too much.

Also, my Phosphates were down to 2 and Nitrates to maybe 0.3, so the tank has been chewing thru nutrients. But clearly I did not keep up PJAN's levels of "pressure". That may have been a contributor to the algae. Who's to say.

Also, my snails are GONE! I put two of my Botia striata (Zebra loaches) in before I left, and they clearly went to town chowing snails. And they seem happy enough.

So with two loaches and a SAE in the tank, that leads me to cycling. I still get zero readings for ammonia and nitrites, so I'm declaring this tank, a successfully cycle-less cycled tank!​Pics and responses to all later. Gotta go trim the tank. It's getting a bit jungle like.


----------



## John P.

Good news, except for the algae! Looking forward to pictures!


----------



## scolley

UPDATE
The tank is taking off. Turning into a jungle really. So very soon I have to turn my attention back to aquascaping, and take the attention off new growth. The growth is happening in a major way. Now it needs to be planned growth - the right stuff in the right places.

Also, have ordered my fish! Can't wait to show them to you. Since I'm doing native fish, I could have just used what I can catch myself, but most of those are a bit too big. I need native fish that won't eat my non-native cleaners... i.e. - I don't want my SAE, Amano shrimp, and zebra loaches being lunch. So by ordering the fish, I could get the size I wanted. But eventually they'll get too big, and have to go back into our good ole native waters.





PJAN said:


> Working together : allright. Use me as a second opnion. Maybe I know something extra. So, letts not hijack Steve's thread further !
> Gr. PJAN


Happy to see you guys chatting PJAN! You can hijack my thread any time when it benefits the community like this! roud: 





unirdna said:


> Maybe you'll get lucky and have a "smooth" transition of emerse to submersed growth, but if your like the most of us, be prepared for a die-off. It will, of course, regrow. But, watching it metamophose is somewhat painful .
> 
> Also, could I press you for a room photo. I would love to see how this tank affects the surroundings.


Everyone advised me to snip off the tops of the dwarf hairgrass, which I did early on. It made a mess! But new shoots are coming out everywhere now, and they don't have those fuzzy tops, so I assume it is the submersed form. Thanks.

And I'll try to get room photo. But I've got to wait until my kids have cleaned up their toys and such. If I'm going to put pics of the house out on the Internet, they better be pics my wife won't care about!





unirdna said:


> I love that the giant hairgrass doesn't even reach the surface.


 :hihi: Are you kidding Ted? That's a joke, right?

I have to take the scissors to that stuff every other day. I just came back from a week away, and some was growing INTO my light fixture. It's outta control!





donaldbyrd said:


> I just finished reading the previous threads, looks like it has been quite the trip, but the way the tank is looking I would say it had to have been worth it.


Thanks pal. It was hard. But it has been worth it! The level of satisfaction I've gained has only been enhanced by the blood (yes, a little) sweat, and tears shed getting here. I'd advise anyone to do it, but only if you are ready to stick with it. If you can do that, it is way, way worth it!





metfan581 said:


> I love the tank its aswome one of the best i have ever seen


It's kind of hard to respond to such extreme compliments, except to say "I dunno, it's got a long way to go IMO. But it does seem like a pretty good start!" Thanks. :icon_wink 





Betowess said:


> You might try only running both banks of the TEK for maybe 5 hours, fwiw


Welcome back Bob!

It is a Tek, a 6 bulb. So I'm not running both banks (a two bank and a four bank) ever! That's a lot of light. Enough for a tan certainly! So I assume you mean running 4 bulbs. And for that I'm going to stick with the 3 hours only until I get the ferts right, and the algae on the glass and sand goes bye-bye.





BlueRam said:


> I need to clear out some Ludwgia soon


Thanks! I'll send you a PM.





travdawg said:


> even when my 10 gallon has green dust all over it, & my plants are growing out of control, & I have crap uprooting, it still looks better than the tanks that my friends have with the red gravel & plastic plants with a sunken ship background.


You _know _ it dawg! And that IS something to be proud of!




travdawg said:


> UNDER the hood is something else for you to take pride in! Some people could detract from what you have done by saying "if I had the money...."


Wow. I know I have to tread lightly on the "money thing". But I've spent a great deal of my life without two nickels to rub together. So I'm not going hide now what can be done if you have a little extra money to support the hobby. We spend a great deal of time on DIY (and I have DIY in my stand too!). It seems only reasonable to show what you could do if you had an additional buck or two.

To anyone that has taken this as "showing off" vs. "showing, sharing, and learning together", please accept my sincere apologies. Showing off is not my intention, and I hope that comes across.





travdawg said:


> I cant imagine what a dogged employee you would make!


I'll be sure and tell my boss about your observation. Maybe he'll be so impressed he'll give me a raise, and I'll be able to get that Aquamedic Aquacontroller Jr that Hop got me lusting over!





nemesis1337 said:


> regarding the water level, aren't you worried fish might escape?


Thanks for the kind words, but _worried_? Not at all. Maybe _certain _ would be a better word.

I've already lost a confirmed 2 Amano shrimp - found them dried out on the floor. And goodness knows where the others are. I can find 2 out of 6 or 8. As for the fish. Well, I'm kind of taking a Darwinian approach. If they jump out of a healthy environment into a hostile one, that's just natural selection in action.

I'll just keep sticking more Amano's in until I'm left with a batch that isn't inclined to climb out.





John P. said:


> Looking forward to pictures!


I'll try to do some pics tonight, and post them soon. After that I think it might be time to start that aquascaping, and let the tank grow in a bit.

Who knows? With the bed of riccia taking off unexpectedly like this, I might actually make the AGA 2005 contest deadline!


----------



## scolley

*Pics*

A few clickable full tank at 3 weeks...
 

Left front
 
Right front
 

And finally, not quite the requested view of the room that the tank goes in. But this is the angle it is frequently viewed at...
 
Full room shots will have to come later.

Obviously the swords are getting huge. They are going to have to be replaced before they take over the tank.

And the riccia is actually ripping the HC out! It's wacky. It has so much buoyancy, that it begins pulling the stuff out by the roots! I think it looks nice, but only when it stays rooted! Gonna have to keep my eye on this.

More later when the fish arrive. That event will spell the end of the Java Fern driftwood in the center. I'll leave it in long enough to soak up the ammonia for a week or so, after that I need to find a home for it. Any takers? The driftwood by itself cost $25 or so... Lemme know if you are interested.

Thanks.


----------



## turtlehead

Looks nice with the accidental riccia growth.


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## Jdinh04

Man, so much growth i've seen in 3 weeks. Keep it up!


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## Tino

That riccia is out of control! Will prove to be a PITA, I'm afraid..


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## scolley

Yeah, I've got a real love-hate relationship with riccia too! But since it is doing it's natural thing - being a pain in the a** weed - and since it is providing a nice ground cover, I'm willing to watch and wait a little while.

All I wanted out of the HC was ground cover to keep the sand/substrate line in place. If HC covered with riccia can do the sam thing, that's OK by me. Time will tell.


----------



## Oqsy

have you considered hydrocotyle as an option at all, scolley? I don't know about the particular area where you grew up, but it's definitely an american south plant, as it's all over the place around here (plenty of swamps in arkansas, too  ) 

by the way, the brevipes i'm putting aside for you should be ready in about a week. if the timing of that is inconvenient (i know you travel for work quite a bit), then let me know and I'll get it to you on your schedule. I'll throw in some hydrocotyle verticillata and lysimachia (both grow wild very near my house) if you're not opposed to them.

Tank is looking GREAT, by the way. I'm a big fan of the giant hairgrass background, even if it is a bit high maintenance. sand looks very nice in the foreground, and I'm very intruiged about your upcoming fish selections.

Oqsy


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## scolley

Thanks Osqy! That is great! I've got no travel plans for a few weeks at least.

Yeah, some hydrocotyle would be great to look at and research anyway. I can put it in my 20g for a little while as I try to find out if it is suitable. I just picked up some hydrocotyle up from a lake in New Hampshire on vacation. I need to take a pic to see if someone can tell me what it is. It has nice round green leaves, maybe 2" in diameter, and purple stems and undersides to the leaves. Beautiful, but I'm not sure about it's geographic distribution. New Hampshire is a long way from the Gulf Coast. (BTW - my home town got hammered by a hurricane yesterday - again!)

Trimming the giant hairgrass is a PITA, but not too bad. It's the first plant I've had that I can trim and not even get my hands wet!

The fish will be cool! But they are juveniles, so I'm not expecting them to look too cool from the onset. Will be gun to watch them mature though.


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## PJAN

Amazing healthy growth! 
I agree the Echinodorus is becomming too big. 
Also impressive pictures : very good quality.

One remark about the living room : 
The tank is standing in the wrong living room....

Gr. PJAN


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## scolley

Thanks PJAN! roud: 

New topics - Fish getting too big!

I've got some native fish on the way, and in previous post in indicated that they would eventually get too big for the tank. In that same post I said I'd just return them to native waters. Well, it appears that many amateur aquarists like myself have had the same idea with disastrous consequences. Take a read here.

Not good news for the fish arriving tomorrow though. They are already in transit. So I suppose I've got some fish coming that had better grow real slow, and then hope I can find them new homes when they outgrow my puny 75. :icon_frow


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## scolley

*Need Advice! Quick!!!*

One of the fish I've been trying really hard to get for my tank is a gar. Those nasty critters were a constant presence in swamps growing up, and this biotope just did not seem complete in my mind without one. Problem is, they get big. And they are all really, really hard to find. Chinese "needle nosed gar" are fairly readily available, and are smaller. But they aren't native, and they really aren't even gar - just gar-like.

One of the only vendors that sells native fish that I can find, Jonah's Aquarium, suddenly came up with a few Longnosed Gar in stock - something they don't carry. Stupidly, I jumped on it, even though I remembered that that was one of the larger kinds of gar. And since they are so hard to find, and replacement shipping is so expensive, I only wanted one, but I ordered two - just in case.

The fish are arriving today, and I've had a chance to do the research, and these fish, Lepisosteus osseus, get HUGE. From the limited information available that I can find, it looks like I'll be lucky if will take about 12 months before these little fish to outgrow my 75.

They are wicked fast swimmers, and I've learned that it can be really hard to remove a fast animal out of a planted tank if it doesn't want to go.

Now I'm afraid to put these fish in the tank. They arrive today.

Advice?  I'm stumped.


----------



## Oqsy

order the glass for the "bigger clear kahuna" right now. you should be able to build a 400 gallon tank by the time those guys outgrow your 75. 

is that the species that gets 6-8 ft long? 

maybe you can find a zoo / aquarium that's interested in taking them once they outgrow your setup? 

Oqsy


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## Safado

scolley said:


> They are wicked fast swimmers, and I've learned that it can be really hard to remove a fast animal out of a planted tank if it doesn't want to go.
> 
> Now I'm afraid to put these fish in the tank. They arrive today.
> 
> Advice?  I'm stumped.


Let's see, 8 lbs test ought to do it. :icon_bigg 

Or you could not feed 'em for a couple of days, and reach in to arrange your plants. When it latches onto your arm, pull it out. :icon_bigg :icon_bigg 

I have been thinking about adding some needle nose gars to my tank. I can't wait to see how they look if you decide to keep them.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Osqy, you're a barrel of laughs. Baby Gar Pate, and Gar Fritters have also been put forth as solutions. :hihi: 

These things get bigger than 2 feet in length, and somewhat less than 8 feet. Big. With razor sharp teeth. Did I leave that part out?


Here's a couple of links:

http://crypto.stanford.edu/~eujin/pics/aquarium/slides/batimoreaquarium01.html
http://ezinearticles.com/?Keeping-Gars----A-Short-Review&id=27621


So I figure I have a few practical options:
1) Into the Tank  - let removing them in a year or so resolve itself when it's time to re-scape.
2) Find someone here that wants them  - I've got a few PM's out. Speak up if you are interested. They are free if you come and get them.
3) Give them to an LFS  - will be exploring that today.
4) Euthanasia  - :icon_frow​

Any feedback is appreciated.


----------



## scolley

Safado said:


> Let's see, 8 lbs test ought to do it. :icon_bigg
> 
> Or you could not feed 'em for a couple of days, and reach in to arrange your plants. When it latches onto your arm, pull it out. :icon_bigg :icon_bigg
> 
> I have been thinking about adding some needle nose gars to my tank. I can't wait to see how they look if you decide to keep them.


That's another option. But I was thinking about opening a door so I could get a decent back-cast with my flyrod...

They should be cute, and they are supposed to be rather timid (not biters) if you don't look like a small fish. Might want to watch any excess finger wiggling though...


----------



## PJAN

" aligator gar" :icon_mrgr 

O, boy, all those little fingers from kids touching the surface in your OPEN tank. SNAP...
Beautifull fish though. I also can't wait to see them. 
You are sure making a true and dangerous biotope there, mate.

You didn't mention what you're gonna feed these creatures?
Your loaches are just a snack. 
Best is to feed them with little goldfishes. Better warn your family when it's feeding time. 

Oh, 
option 5 : on the BBQ tonight

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

They're not "Alligator Gar", they are "Longnose Gag" - smaller and not as mean, and right now very, very cute in their bag in their shipping box that just arrived!

The small one is about 5 inches long, the big one maybe 6.











Assuming they are from the same batch of fry... Maybe I keep the small one? Like it's the runt of the litter, won't grow as fast or as large? Or maybe it's a female, also smaller. 

Decisions, decisions...


----------



## Jdinh04

Those are sweet fish but I don't think they look good in planted aquariums, you might be better off getting a good selection of discus from www.greatlakesdiscus.com


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## scolley

Jdinh04 said:


> Those are sweet fish but I don't think they look good in planted aquariums, you might be better off getting a good selection of discus from www.greatlakesdiscus.com


Thanks. I'm inclined to agree on the "how they look" question. And I do intend on making this a discus tank one of these days. But not right now.

Now I'm trying create a Cypress Forrest biotope, and they don't have discus. Thanks for the suggestion  - I will do it - but later.

On that topic, I should mention that I also got a couple Largemouth Bass, and a handful of really cute Longear Sunfish. The sunfish are going to have to go into the 20g for a few months though. They are about 1/2" long, and look for all the world like baby gar snacks.

BTW - not of these fish are what most people would call pretty. They are however found in large numbers in cypress swamps.


----------



## Tino

Vote for options 2 and 3. I've yet to hear a success story about those guys from an average hobbyist :icon_sad: .
Sorry, Steve..


----------



## scolley

Sounds like good advice Tino. A BFO, as it were.

But maybe people that didn't have success failed because they were planning on long term fish keeping. My longest scenario is keeping them for 1 year only, then redoing the tank.

Does that change the recommendation?


----------



## unirdna

Steve,

Don't give up too quickly. Although long-nose gar can grow to very large sizes (albeit, not 8 feet - 4 is the norm for a very large one), their growth can be strongly regulated by their owner. These fish are almost exclusively predatory, but they are one of the few predators that I would think could be kept in a planted tank. First off, they do not bolt around the tank, and will likely not spend much time in your plants (except at night or when you originally put them in the tank; in this case they will likely lie on the bottom, motionless). 

When they eat. They may move swiftly to the location of their prey, but will not charge, running everything over, like an oscar. Rather, gar must attack their prey from the side, like an crocodile.

Furthermore, gar are very capable of being "starved" for long periods of time, seriously retarding their potential growth. I have seen and cared for a 5-year-old gar that grew to a mere 10 inches in a 180gal tank in 5 years. Considering his starting size was 6-7 inches, this is very slow growth. They are a very primative fish (they have ganoid scales, for pete sake), and are quite adapted to "hard times".

These fish are quite common in N America, and I regularly catch them in open water and near the shoreline (research) in my area - S. Wisconsin. I've attached a photo of a student holding a gar from L. Mendota. This one is the size of a large "teenager" .

They are a very cool fish, virtually unchanged for 100's of millions of years. As a fisheries biologist, I simply can not be among the masses who will tell you to can this fish and get a bunch of discus .

Ted


----------



## scolley

Ted! This info is a god-send! Thanks! I was literally in the car, with the fish, backing out the driveway, going to try to trade the things at an LFS, when I remembered I wanted to bring a book of North American Fishes with me. I figured I'd take one last look here, and found your reply. WOW!

OK, I'm keeping 1 Gar anyway. 2 may be a bit much given the size of the tank, and considering they will be sharing it with a pair of largemouth bass.

One's going in the tank. Got to think about the other one.

Thanks. Thanks. Thanks!


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## Cheeseybacon

I can't wait to see some pics of the gar in it's new home!


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## Urkevitz

I tried sunfish when I was a kid and they picked each others eyes out.


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## unirdna

LMB's!!!

Now you're in for a problem, steve. Combining those two fish is not going to be easy. Reason being is the lmb's are much more aggressive predators than gar. This will prove difficult as you will have a lot of trouble getting any food in that gar until all the bass are stuffed to the gills. The problem with this is that bass (especially largemouths) can and will grow like weeds if fed their full on a normal basis. Additionally, bass do not handle periods of starvation well. They have a much faster metabolism than gar, and will appear sunken and sickly if not fed frequently. To make matters worse, they ARE a fish that will charge into plants in pursuit of prey. I've witnessed them hit the glass at full throttle chasing after minnows - Thunk! If your bass are smaller than 1 inch, you may get a few months of fun out of them. But at 5 inches, they are going to start tearing up your tank. A gar, on the other hand, can be trusted to not tear things up at much larger sizes. Personally, I would keep both gar, and get rid of the lmb's. If you are eager to keep a centrachid in your tank, opt for a bluegill or pumpkinseed. A long-eared or orange-spotted sunfish is an awesome specimen if you can get your hands on one.

Ted


----------



## chadly

Scolley, check out this link. Jonah's Aquarium I'm sure you'll find fish that'll be better suited for your size tank. They are all native and some are very beautiful. Can I suggest black banded sunfish or some darters. roud: good luck!


----------



## DaAverageJoe

Try some rainbow darters! VERY colorful, undemanding... small too, I believe around 3 - 4". Also a few smaller sunfishes and shiners with several minnows would look attractive in that tank.

I know how cool tankbusters look and act, I sometimes beg my mom for a golden arro (I'm pretty spoiled for a 12-year old you know)


----------



## SueNH

Bass will tear the tank apart, foul the water and will jump. Keep your eyes on them.
I couldn't even keep them in a 25' x 40' pond that was over 6 feet deep. They ate everything that moved and then died. Wasn't the water either, has water running in and out year round. I tried them instead of trout one year because they didn't need as cold a temp. Most years I could keep trout but every 3 years or so the water level would drop enough where I had to release the trout so they would survive. 
The only nice thing about the bass was thinning out abundant crayfish.


----------



## scolley

Wow! Lot's of great feedback! And nothing in a tank yet. Still acclimating them...



Urkevitz said:


> I tried sunfish when I was a kid and they picked each others eyes out.


Well... there's something to look forward to.  Maybe I'll be able to keep them a little less hungry. Time will tell...

I went to the LFS to give them one of the gar, and what did they have in the display tank? Gar!

I had begged them to get some gar a while back, and they said they would check around and get back to me. When I never heard back, I figured it was like when they told me they'd arrange to get me an all-glass, rimless tank from Oceanic. Right - don't hold your breath. But this time the actually did it. Just forgot about the follow thru.

They were spotted gar. Beautiful, beautiful skin coloration. About 6-8 inches long. But they were raggedy! Misshapen beaks, and scrawny looking, chunks ripped out of their fins. But still maintaining beautiful coloration.

I knew this was a much smaller species, but they were such poor specimens, I hung on to one longnose, and gave them the other one. Had to take a pass on the spotted gar. Now I've only got one longnose.

Now to respond...

*chadly * - Thanks for the tip. That's where I got the fish! Did you check the price on those darters? Not cheap if you want a bunch of them.

*DaAverageJoe * - I'm putting in sunfish. But not real small ones. But not too big either. Just pretty. I decided to pass on the darters though since I can't find solid evidence that they inhabit cypress swamps. But they beautiful.

*Sue * - Thanks for the advice. I have been dully warned. Please see the extended response to Ted below...

*Cheesy * - pics will come. Soon. But the coloration is not as spectacular as those raggedy spotted gar I saw today.

*Ted * - Wow. Solid advice. First the sunfish... I got 5 Lepomis megalotis, Longear sunfish. Orange spotted would have been a better size, but I'm of the impression that Longear are more beautiful in their normal, non-breeding colors. Bluegill are boring (to me) and I've found a huge color variation across pumpkinseeds, so I rolled the dice, and it came up Longear.

As for the "LMB"s! Right now, I feel like a teenager on this one. I _know _ your advice is good. And I _know _ that I'll probably be sorry. But there's this _little, teeny, tiny, chance _ that it could work out OK. And I figured that the competition for food with the gar will help hold the gar's size down. Or that if it looks like it won't work out like my parents said, I'm quite experienced with filleting and cooking bass.

I used to _live _ to fish. When I was little, I would ride my bike, every day in the summer, to fish. If my bike was busted, I walked miles and miles to get to a good spot. Later in life I drove to fish. Now I get guides to take me fishing. And what do I fish for 99% of the time? Bass.

I'm happy to hear someone say I'm out of my mind. And I'll consider it. I promise. But having a LMB in its natural setting is something I want to try _real bad_.

Why else do you think I picked a cypress forrest?


----------



## SueNH

Maybe you'll get lucky and they will have more mellow individual personalities. At least if they don't work out you can dump them in the nearest bass pond.

I've got a dwarf puffer that is a layed back fish. Keep him with guppies with no problems.

I used to have a salt tank as a kid that was native Great South Bay fish. Only fish that I had to release was the dogfish. Ate things twice his size and grew overnight it seemed. It's actually fun to watch things you know are floating around in the same water as you are. The tank was near the phone and every time the the phone rang the eel would come up out of the undergravel filter and check to see what was going on. My mother hated him.


----------



## scolley

SueNH said:


> Maybe you'll get lucky and they will have more mellow individual personalities.


I'm hesitant to count on that. As your experience shows, anything could happen. 

But these things are about 2" long. Anyone know how fast they grow?

'Cuz I was just figuring on keeping them a year or so, and then off to the local pond. Maybe that's foolish. But I figured it was worth a shot.

I'm anxious to get beyond this, for as you know Sue, I've got some plants to worry about. roud:



_If anybody want's to add more fuel to the fire about my being nuts putting a couple of juvenile large mouth bass into my tank, please speak up. In an hour or so it will be a done deal. Thanks._


----------



## SueNH

The ones I had in my pond were netted as babies about the size of a large man's thumbnail. By next summer I hated them. Tore up my waterlilies. At first I didn't know it was them, thought another snapping turtle had slipped in. They even put a serious dent in the minnow population.


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## scolley

OK - Everybody says, "Be careful, you could well be very sorry." Thanks. I needed to hear that. And I got a lot of similar advice over PMs. Thanks to you folks too. So please understand that I have been listening, and thinking _hard, hard, hard,_ about your good, experienced advice. But I put the bass in the tank.

Uh ohhh! :icon_eek: Did somebody let their passions get in the way of common sense?...

You betcha! roud: 

I couldn't help it! I try real hard to be methodical, researched, thoughtful, and to be receptive to the coucil of other, more experienced people. I do! But this was just something I had to do.

And you know what? The ittty bitty bass, and the itty bitty gar, both look really, really cool! I know I'll live to regret this. But for one short point in time, I have a living Cypress Forrest in my house, and _I'm in heaven_! My watery childhood playground, my flimsy rod and reel field of daily combat, the memories all come rushing back in waves...

Thanks again for your help! I gotta go stare at my tank...


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> Uh ohhh! :icon_eek: Did somebody let their passions get in the way of common sense?...


 :hihi: Go on with your crazy self, steve. We all know every fish is different. Maybe your bass is a pacifist. Best of luck to ya. Even if it hits the fan, at least YOU will know.

Now less talk and more photos roud: !!!

Ted


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## scolley

unirdna said:


> :Now less talk and more photos roud: !!!


OK. I Promise!

Thanks!


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## briandmiles

Good for you Scolley! I say throw caution to the wind and indulge in your need to recreate a cypress swamp for now. As I was reading the previous posts leading up to this moment I can't tell you how much I was hoping that you would ingore all of the (probably correct) naysayers. This is probably for two reasons: 1) I think that native fish species are a thing of beauty even if they do lack the flashy colors that people always look for. 2)If this turns out to be a good example of what not to do when putting together a north american biotope then I'm sure we'll all get a good laugh out of it...eventually.

Brian


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## SueNH

I'd love to see this tank when it's done.

How about a good old bullhead catfish? I always thought they were interesting creatures.

If you ever wander this way again I can show you a neat warmish pond that is shallow and loaded with plants and bass and driftwood. Several different minnows swim in large schools back and forth. You can often see the yellow perch dart out of nowhere and grab a snack. Watch the catfish guard her nest of young ones. Fascinating to watch. Used to take my kid there because the water stayed knee deep for yards and yards before it dropped off. A small child can amuse themselves for hours.


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## BOTIA

Hey Scolley just a warning. keeping ANY native species of fish or animal in an aquarium is illegal in the US.
There was even a case where a woman in seattle rescued an orphaned mallard. Someone ratted her out , they (fish wildlife officer)came and took the duck from her AT GUNPOINT while roughing her up a bit.. Mind you this duck thought she was momma and she had to bring her to work or else it would not eat.
Botia:O


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## Oqsy

where do you get your information, BOTIA? There are lots of native US fish that are freely bought and sold in the open market. If what you're saying is true, then SWAT teams should be kicking the doors down of my LFS, as well as every petco, petsmart, and other store across the country that sells sailfin mollies, fathead minnows (feeders), american/florida flag fish, least killiefish, or mosquitofish (the gov't GIVES these to people in certain places). Also, when I was netting mosquitofish, it seems that the Arkansas Game and Fish officer that was *helping me find them* would have mentioned that it was illegal after I told him willingly that they were for my aquarium. I think the law you refer to must apply to birds / mammals, or perhaps be qualified in certain ways. (ie, can't keep ENDAGERED native fish)

Oqsy


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## scolley

BOTIA said:


> Hey Scolley just a warning. keeping ANY native species of fish or animal in an aquarium is illegal in the US.


Thanks for watching out for me! roud: But I believe your source of information is incorrect. Law regarding the collection and keeping of native fish in the US varies state by state. Some laws are not completely clear, and are subject to some local interpretation, and some are quite proscriptive. As a definitive reference I've used American Aquarium Fishes, by Goldstein, Harper and Edwards, published by Texas A&M University Press. Quite a nice book - more like a large college level text book than your typical hobbyist booklets. And from what I read there, I am in the clear.

What I did have to watch though is methods and source of capture. Which is exactly why I did not go out and drop a seine net into a local pond to capture me some small large mouth bass. The legal method was a bit more expensive - but legal.

Thanks for the word of caution though.





SueNH said:


> How about a good old bullhead catfish?


Now there is an animal I decided to omit! Along with larger crawfish, as both of them will play h*ll on the plants, with all their incessant rooting around. And to think you were warning me about bass...




SueNH said:


> Used to take my kid there because the water stayed knee deep for yards and yards before it dropped off. A small child can amuse themselves for hours.


Sounds like we know an adult that might have kind of enjoyed themselves a bit too.  I know I would get a kick out of it! In my childhood I lived for that stuff. I think a lot of aquarists were (are) like that. It's why they are aquarists - God bless 'em!





briandmiles said:


> If this turns out to be a good example of what not to do when putting together a north american biotope then I'm sure we'll all get a good laugh out of it...eventually.


Brian - you know I'll let everyone know!

We all know now that you can indeed build a reasonably large glass rimless/frameless tank, and even have it look nice. We also know my attempt a excessively complex plumbing was a boondoggle.

I don't know how this will work out. But I'll wager that it will be real nice for 12 months or so. Lets find out!


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## scolley

Oqsy said:


> There are lots of native US fish that are freely bought and sold in the open market.


Thanks for the backup Oqsy. You ninja-posted on me!


----------



## Defchilde

scolley said:


> We also know my attempt a excessively complex plumbing was a boondoggle.


I would not call the plumbing plans a boondoggle, ...more like a thesis or a discussion paper. There were ideas of where an aquarist could go, but probably shouldn't... I followed it with interest, and am impressed with what you have produced roud:


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> Now there is an animal I decided to omit!


Oh, thank heavens you still have some discretion :hihi: . The only saving grace of bullheads is they are easy to net.


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## scolley

*One LMB gone...*

Had to euthanize one of the large mouth bass. So, I'm down to one. That's why I bought two - just in case.

It was pretty pale this morning, easily caught in a net. Last nite the same fish was clearly not as "full bellied", nor as active, as the other. When I got it out I noticed that large chunks of it's tail were gone. There's nothing in the tank that can do that IMO, unless the gar ripped it. Either way, it's history now.

The other LMB is a character, swimming all over the tank. Nice and green. And if you approach the tank, it swims right up to you and stares you in the face and follows you around. That's one gutsy little fish.



Thanks Defchilde!  

And Ted, I'm not sure where one draws the line between passionate and irrational, but I'm working on it in my fish selection.


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## StUk_In_AfRiKa

But where are the pictures??  I'm dying to see your fish in that tank!


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## scolley

*Lame Pics*

Sorry folks, no time for nice pics yet. But here are a very humble few of the gar.

I'm clearly going to have a hard time getting good focused shots with my camera... Don't know how some of you folks take such nice fish pics.









Here it's looking for a little afternoon snack. The snack was having none of that, as you may be able to see from the body language.



















No bass pics yet. The little mister "I can scarf 6 feeder fish in the time the gar can catch one" pig was off hiding somewhere. Probably had a stomach ache!

More later, as my closeup photography skills improve!


----------



## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Aww he's so cute! He looks great in there. I can't wait to see the bass.


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## Jim

Steve,

I'm not an expert photographer either, but I know the tripod + macro lens combination is key. Question for you -- what type of lotus is that in the last photo? It's a cool look. The few lotus that I have purchased don't have a root system like that. There's usually just that brown ball of roots at the bottom of the stems. 

Thanks,

Jim


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## scolley

Thanks Jim. I was using a tripod, and the "macro" setting for my Canon A95. But a separate lens would be nice!

That plant is a Nymphoides aquatica, a Banana Plant. Those "roots" are actually tubers. It doesn't have roots proper. But they all have extended a root like projection or two into the substrate to anchor themselves. And the larger ones have all shot up a different, round, pink underside, surface floating leaf. Kinda cool. roud: 


Thanks Stuk. I think it's cute too. Now anyway. He's been pigging out on feeders today. I wanted to let it a get good meal in before the food rationing program begins. And that's going to be easy, for as long as the bass is not stuffed, it's clear that he will beat the gar to the meal every time.

It's also clear that the ONLY way I'm going to be able to feed the gar is to first get the bass so full that it has no interest in food. That should work out just fine.


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## Cheeseybacon

I'm really liking that gar. Two thumbs up! roud: roud:


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## John P.

Every time I get around to checking this journal, there are so many new things here!

Steve, check out Tom Barr's gars (nice rhym!):
http://www.aquatic-plants.org/gallery/album02


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## Oqsy

steve: brevipes is ready... let me know when, and I'll pluck some for you. I was thinking about hanging on until I had more, but looking at your tank, it'll fill out faster in your tank than mine  

I seriously need a lighting upgrade to get things just right in my tank, but it looks like all my income will be going toward retrofitting my home and vehicles with solar panels and hydrogen fuel cells. not really, but .. well... maybe. 

pm me your latitude and longitude and they're yours. 

perhaps we should start a "brotherhood of the traveling brevipes"... by the time we're done, mike will have so much karma he'll make buddha blush. oh wait, i forgot the karma discussion was in PM, so perhaps the rest of the board is a bit confused... oh well, serves em right, the honery lot! 

Great gars! Glad to see you found some. I found out that the ones at my lfs were indeed the asian imports, and the guy that was saying otherwise was basically full of it... I'm thrilled to see this tank going the way you wanted and that you're not backing down. Keep it going.

Oqsy


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## kzr750r1

Cool Beans! Not only have the fish arrived but your plants look healthy. I notice the pearling under the swords and your ricca is clean. Keep up the good work. roud:


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## Buck

scolley said:


> It's also clear that the ONLY way I'm going to be able to feed the gar is to first get the bass so full that it has no interest in food. That should work out just fine.


 Steve I love your enthusiasm but you will find that there is no such thing as a full bass. I have kept and loved the bass but the diet and waste from them will get overwhelming. 
The gar are a much cleaner and efficient eater , only eating what it needs and holding it longer for processing making less waste.
Bass will, eat , poop and look for the next meal while its still chewing the first meal. The largest bass (and last) I managed to keep was 14" and it only took 11 months to get there from 1 1/2"... 

For live feeders , I have raised Tiger Knives, Clown Knives , Pacu , Oscars , Bass , Pickerel , Bullhead and Bluegill. The dirtiest fish by far was the bass. They are a great fish in the tank , very personable, but you must be willing to rotate your stock at about 6-8"... they seem to change at that size for some reason and become unruly. 
I never kept them in a planted tank though so you are on your own with that one.

Also, as far as being illegal to keep... no way... they are only illegal to *release* 

I always enjoyed the live feeders, but dang if they aint a lot of work. Now I love tetra's... LOL

My advice...keep the gar...dump the bass. Much slower growing and much easier to clean up after. BTW... the tank is looking A-ONE man... great job !


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## Cheeseybacon

The more I look at these fish, the more I like them. They are way more interesting than some rotten old discus.


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## Betowess

I wonder if Gar would eat my Rainbowfish? Just kidding. They are very sleek and efficient looking. And Tom Barr's tanks really look fantastic. Thanks for sharing the link, John.


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## scolley

*Quick reply now - more later...*

A momentary stroll down memory lane...

The very first time I went fishing I was 5 years old. I was out with my best friend and his dad. We were in a small skiff on the sometimes brackish edge of a cypress swamp. Daybreak - sun not visable over the horizon yet. So quiet you could hear a pin drop, water as smooth as glass, with mist rising from it. Largemouth bass was the quarry.

We all threw our lines in, and on my very first cast. Bang!

From the reaction of my friends dad, it was a good one! As I recall, I did "some" reeling, but I believe I got a good bit of assistance (he probably didn't want a good one getting away). 

We got the fish to the edge of the boat, and that's when the cussing started. My friend's dad was pissed. I thought "Why?" The fish was COOL! It was almost 4 feet long, and MEAN looking! It had a long, long mouth, full of sharp looking teeth. I knew this was a trophy fish to go on my wall! To be sure!

But my friend's dad just grumbled, as he tried to retrieve his lure without getting his fingers ripped up. He said it was a "trash fish", a "needle-nose" hr called it. He promptly threw it back in, over my near tearful objections.

As an adult this memory is still vivid. I remember that fish well. It was a gar. And unless my memory serves me wrong, and unless my reference materials have bad photo's, I think it was a longnose gar. Just like the one in my tank.

Sorry for the ramble. Figured it was relevant. It certainly is to me.


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## scolley

*Replies - updates...*

Thanks folks.

*Buck*, I'm planning on swapping out the bass. I don't want to, but it seems that at some point soon, I'll have no choice. Thanks for the insight. It's all bad news, of course, but it's bad news that I pretty much expected. But at least it's good to know that the time tables are short. The bass kaa-kaa is going to hit the windmill in not too many months, and I need to begin planning on that now. Thanks!

*Betowess * - Rainbow fish... Do they move? If so, this gar would try to eat them! My SAE and Amano shrimp have recently learned the meaning of "keep on your toes"!

*Cheesy * - If you could see this gar up close, I'm sure you would get a major league kick out of it.

*Osqy * - Thanks a MILLION for the native plants! PM already sent! I'm gonna "out" you on this one buddy... Osqy and I have been PM'ing on the good karma assumed to be derived from sending people free plants. Seems we both have been practicing that for a while. He's sending me free plants for my tank, and I'm not feeling guilty at all due to the number of free plants I've sent to other people. So if you are making a little do-ray-me sending plants to people, that's fine. But this is a very short plug for sending stuff gratis, as Osqy is doing for me to help this tank. If you can afford to send plants to community members for free - Please do! We all benefit from such charitable actions! And who knows? You might get a few karma points.

Thanks Osqy! Karma points coming your way I'm sure!!!


*kzr750r1 * - You noticed that pearling did you? Thanks! I know pearling is not the end-all. But it does seem to be a significant indicator, and I've been fortunate to get enough good advice here to know how to keep that going at a reasonable (but not insane) level! It's cool when you start to get the hang of this stuff, don't you think?

*John P.* - Thanks for the links! My hat is off to Tom Barr, who has clearly had great success with Gar in planted tanks! My favor pic is this one, of what appear to be a pair of spotted gar. Gorgeous!


*TANK INHABITANTS UPDATE*
The gar is really interesting. I wish you could see it interact with the bass. They look at each other, nose to nose, and kind of dare each other to take the first move! It's hilarious. But they've backed off on this initial posturing a bit, and now seem to have accepted the fact that neither of them is going to eat the other one, and gracefully tolerate each others presence.

Now this is quiet truce is completely messed up by the Botia striata, that do not belong in the biotope, but I need them to keep the snails in check. They are almost the exact same size as the bass, and chase it all over the tank. They seem to think it's a shoal thing, and have to follow the leader who's leading them to new food. Must be frustrating if you are loach. But it's funny to watch.

Then of course there is the gar, always quietly hovering a the surface, that seems to be looking down saying, "Yes, I see you there. And I could eat you all, if it were not for the lovely meal I just had a few hours ago."

What a drama! What a kick!


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## Betowess

No ramble there Stevie wonder. Its always a gas to read your threads. Your karma is so fine. This is such a fun community, I really think we should have a convention some time. I just had a few friends over tonight for dinner. Turned them on to the Planted after they were enjoying my re-started tank. I showed them Shalu's, Ibn's Altum (my best friend loves Angels), Barada's, your tank, Travis's Mbuna's, Tom Barr's, Rohans' in Australia, and of course Hoftieziers and a few moderator's tanks. Now my old best friend is finally thinking about launching a 125 gallon. I know him and he'll do it now. He grew up with some big tanks and after seeing the planted Tank, he is hooked on high light with pressurized CO2. Sorry for my ramble. This forum is such a pleasure to share. I dig your Gars, the childhood story, and the  frameless Kahuna. 

BTW, what is the favorite "snack". Yo Karma is bad for those poor fellows. Then again, tell that to my wife as she feeds the frozen/thawed mice to my eight yr. old's Ball Python. Personally, I hate snakes. bob


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## scolley

Betowess said:


> BTW, what is the favorite "snack". Yo Karma is bad for those poor fellows.


I'm afraid their karma was bad no matter what - they are "feeder" guppies from the LFS. Dying of old age in just not in their future. :icon_frow On one hand it seems mean. But it is just how it is in nature. IMO Americans are so removed from the killing process involved in the foods they eat, we tend to forget the harsh realities of the existence of carnivores. But I digress...

*Tanks Updates (clickable)*
 


 


 

A good shot of the gar, so you can get an idea of it's size.
 

And finally a decent shot of the bass!
 


And below, a great big "I told you so!" is due me from Sue, Ted, and Buck!
It's that !*#! bass, eating one of my brand new amano shrimp! I caught him doing this today. Three days ago I had 10 of these. Two crawled out, and I can't find any more. Clearly they are fish food now. :icon_frow 


I suppose it is only a matter of time before he's trying to eat his buddies, my loaches. Something's gonna have to give before that happens. Maybe cycling to a new, smaller bass as Buck suggested. Or maybe just saying bye-bye bass. Nothing lasts forever, I guess.


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## Steven_Chong

. . . Scolly, I don't mean any disrespect but . . . I don't think that you could hope for peaceful co-existance between a fish like a bass & Yamato shrimp . . . You know that later on your bass could eat adult crayfish claws and all . . . with fish, if it can go in the mouth, it's chow . . .

BTW- I haven't read the entire thread, but you're not going for the perfected biotope right? Since there seem to be a lot of animals and plants not from the US. Or are you saying "I'll let myself have algae eaters even if they're not supposed to be there?" But microsorium are still from asia no matter how you look at it . . .


----------



## Kris

that pic of the bass eating the shrimp is fabulous. my third graders and i are about to start really kicking biotope study into high gear and i can't wait to show that to them!


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## Steven_Chong

When you kick that off, make sure not to give them the idea that Japanese Swamp Shrimp are a part of the natural diet of American Bass. :tongue:


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## scolley

greenmiddlefinger said:


> . . . Scolly, I don't mean any disrespect but . . . I don't think that you could hope for peaceful co-existence between a fish like a bass & Yamato shrimp...


I never for a moment expected a peaceful coexistence. Any reference material about the animals will tell you that crustateans are a major part of a bass diet. So you meant no offense? OK. Maybe you are only suggesting that I don't read? I suppose that's no so bad...

What I did not know, and was willing to find our through experience, was what size of animals the bass and gar would try to eat, relative to their own body size.

That amano shrimp is about 80% the length of the body of the bass. I did not expect to see it eat something so large yet. In fact, I watched it swim around the tank, trying to swallow that shrimp. And it eventually spit it out! I also could only gage through experience whether the bass would be fast enough to regularly catch the shrimp. Now I know. But I always fully expected it to try.

So now I know that it will even try to eat things that it can't swallow. While I never expected a peaceful coexistence, that behavior was a bit of a surprise.




greenmiddlefinger said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, but you're not going for the perfected biotope right? Since there seem to be a lot of animals and plants not from the US. Or are you saying "I'll let myself have algae eaters even if they're not supposed to be there?" But microsorium are still from asia no matter how you look at it . . .


This will never be 100% authentic, even if I'm fully successful in my attempts. I'm happy to make compromises to keep a nice looking tank. I would have assumed that having Japanese shrimp, and loaches in the tank kind of makes that self-evident. I am definately not willing to have excess algae to make it a perfect biotope, nor am I willing to put up with an exploding snail population. 

FWIW, I've never seen a 100% perfect biotope. Every one I've ever seen has made compromises of some form.

But I can't agree about the plants though. The lotus are not indigenous, but they are now pervasive in the the target environment since their introduction around the turn of the century. The only other, definately non-indigenous plant is the java moss. As I've posted earlier, that is only there temporarily to help separate the substrates while the ground cover gets established. Then it comes out. And finally the HC is listed in some places as only being from Cuba and/or South America, but there are other botanical sources that include it as a native North American plant. So its appropriateness would be determined by the source you chose to use.

So once the java moss comes out, all the plants are arguably appropriate IMO. Not all indigenous, but a part of that environment today. I hope the only exceptions will be animals used to help keep the tank nice to look at.


----------



## AlphaExPlus

I know the feeling. I had a school of Red Eye Tetras and I assumed the same thing: "That amano shrimp is about 80%+ the length of the body of the tetra. It can't eat it" A few days later I find 2 Red Eyes swimming around with Amanos in their mouths. 

Out of the 25 Amano shrimp I got, there was only 7 left. The fish only cost me a dollar, while the shrimp ran me about 2.00+. So about 36 dollars of shrimp that were fed as feeder fish. Live and learn I guess.


----------



## scolley

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Since there seem to be a lot of animals and plants not from the US.


I'm sorry! I forgot about the big java fern in the middle!  

That too is non-native and only temporary. Earlier in the thread I mentioned that this is just a little extra biomass, conveniently attached to some driftwood, that will come out just as soon as I feel the other plants are cranking well enough on their own. So by the end of this week, that will be gone.

Removing a single piece of driftwood seemed a much better route than ripping our a bunch of temporary stem plants IMO.


----------



## BlueRam

You might enquire about "glass shrimp" as feeders too. I think they are found in florda and run ~4-10 per $.


----------



## scolley

Thanks BlueRam. Are you suggesting that in the spirit of providing authentic food? (not real worried about that... ) Or because they are cheap? (like that!) Or because the bass has aparently acquired a taste for shrimp? (Not sure how I feel about that yet!)

My assumption is that I'm going to feed the bass as little as I can, and still keep it healthy (anyone know how often that is???) And that when I do feed it, I'll be feeding it only a few of whatever that something is so that it will scarf them all down before the gar can get any. That way the gar stays small longer. I hope.


----------



## Mellyn

"Glass shrimp" or ghost shrimp are native to Florida - as per the 10 or so I caught in a stream a little while ago. They're prolly a natural part of the fish's diet. They shrimp will eat the little bits food that the gar and bass miss. And if either fish gets too hungry while you feed only small amounts, they can grab one. The normal price around here is 10 for a buck.


----------



## [RK]

They are $2 each here in Australia


----------



## scolley

Mellyn said:


> "Glass shrimp" or ghost shrimp are native to Florida - as per the 10 or so I caught in a stream a little while ago. They're prolly a natural part of the fish's diet. They shrimp will eat the little bits food that the gar and bass miss. And if either fish gets too hungry while you feed only small amounts, they can grab one. The normal price around here is 10 for a buck.


Thanks Mellyn. It would be a way I could keep a cheap cleaning crew in the tank, and still be faithful to the biotope. And while they are not as cheap here, I could still get a bunch for not too much money - and they will apparently breed in a tank. But I'm worried about having a readily available food supply for the bass, and even more so for the gar.

I'm concerned that a constant food source will stimulate growth. And I want them to stay as small as possible, for as long as possible.

Bit of a dilemma actually...


----------



## Steven_Chong

Um . . . I'm sorry Scolley . . . I know you're trying your best . . . the compromises are not too-big then if the java ferns/moss are temporary . . . 

I know you always do your research too . . . I just thought it was strange then to be upset about eaten shrimp when you know it's a fish that will eat them . . .

it's too bad there is no readily available suppy of asian shrimp to use as feeders . . . Hawai'i LFs have "wild form" neocaridina denticulata that are mass bred as feeder shrimp that double as algae eaters . . . then again it's not like I'm living in Hawai'i any more either . . . I'm just saying it would be nice if we could also do that on the mainland, but right now cherry shrimp are prized too much for me people to consider that I think . . .


----------



## scolley

No prob Greenmiddlefinger! I suppose what I'm p*ssed about with the bass is that it's eating things it can't even eat yet. It had to spit that shrimp out. I'm sure it's dead now from the abuse it got. I had just hoped that the bass would take a pass on the shrimp until it got a little bigger. Instead it's attacking and killing stuff it can't even eat. That's my frustration - I had hoped to have the shrimp around a while longer while the tank got established.

It's interesting that you bring up cherry reds. While expensive, those are readily, and are a bit smaller than ghost shrimp. I've been wondering if they might be a suitable cleaner, if for no other reason than the bass might have a harder time eating them. It's worth a try on a few. But I suspect that with that mouth-open sucking action they have, the bass will probably just suck them up like candy. I might give it a shot though.

Thanks for the suggestion. roud:


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## Buck

There is no way you will ever have anything in that tank with Bass and I hate tell you this but that Gar is gonna look mighty tasty to that Bass one night and it may not be all that long from now.  

Also...No type of shrimp will survive , crayfish wouldnt even make it and for that matter , neither will anything that the Bass "thinks" will fit in his lips...its the nature of the beast Im afraid. 

On the upside...if you like the bass, stick with them. Two could grow out in that 75 for a while if the diets are controlled. They are a very personable fish and can be trained to take feeders from the hand. 

2 or 3 RedEar Sunnies would accent them nice...we know how to get them right ? :wink:


----------



## scolley

Thanks Buck. I like the fish, heck I _love _ it. It's a bass! So I'm willing to put up with a lot. But it better not eat my gar. That gar is one really cool fish.

But I've got to respect that bass. When it is chasing a meal, it is fast as lightning. So fast sometimes you can't follow it. It is a flesh eating rocket!

It's definately personable too. It comes right up to the edge of the tanks and stares at me. I means at my face, not my torso, which is a bit weird. You really get the impression that it's looking at you going "Yeah, that's right... I looking at YOU! You got a problem with that?"

You gotta respect that fish. But if it eats the gar, it's going in the skillet.


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## Buck

Fire up the stove then bro... that gar is nuttin but a toothpick for the Bass when he's done eatin'...and he WILL try. :tongue: It will be at night because the gar are very vulnerable with there top 1/3 preference in the water. When the lights go out, Bass are at their best...or worst depending on how you are looking at it... LOL 

I had to euthanize one bass because he took a bullhead on head first and the barbels on each side of the catfish did its job. I thought the bass killed the bullhead and I was rippin mad but the bullhead survived. When the Bass tried to swallow him the barbels stiffened out and ripped into the bass's gills and got him stuck. The bullhead was 8" long... the Bass was 5"... what was the bass thinkin ? :icon_roll

2 days later I found my prize bullhead that I caught in a minnow trap as a baby that survived the viscious bass attack , STUCK to my carpet in the living room.


----------



## Veneer

[RK] said:


> They are $2 each here in Australia


Then again, those are generally Atyids (typically _Paratya australiensis_) more on par with Amanos (_Caridina japonicus_).


----------



## Steven_Chong

Oh, cherries would definitely be chow, but it's easy to breed a lot of them quickly if you have a good stock. It'll take time for the fish to eat them all, and in the mean time . . . cleaning . . . if you get "wild forms" that are brown/tan colored, they should last longer and be cheaper . . . I think they're pretty cheap on aquabid sometimes . . .


----------



## [RK]

Veneer said:


> Then again, those are generally Atyids (typically _Paratya australiensis_) more on par with Amanos (_Caridina japonicus_).


Hmm.. interesting. That would explain the price  I bought 5 of them 2 weeks ago. Some were really tiny, the biggest being under an inch. And so far, i think only 2 are left. The rest have been eaten by my Columbian Tetras.


----------



## Aussie_Star

[RK] said:


> They are $2 each here in Australia


 where would that be?


----------



## SueNH

That bass is just wondering how long it will be before he can swallow you. 

I used to have friends who would go bass fishing using mice, baby squirrels, baby birds. I probably should n't use the word friend. More like somebody I would talk to after I had a drink or two back when I was young.


----------



## scolley

SueNH said:


> That bass is just wondering how long it will be before he can swallow you.


Sue, I'm sure there's a kernel of truth in there somewhere. :hihi: 

Sue I know many similar stories to catch bass. But you left out a couple of great ones... a wounded fish, and snakes. What I won't say is how I know.


Buck - Sorry about your bullhead. And BTW, I did get some bream to put in the tank. They are longears, and only about 1/2" long, so I'm hoping they grow out quickly in my 20g, then I'll toss them in with the bass. Hopefully they will turn out to look something remotely like this.


----------



## Buck

> Buck - Sorry about your bullhead.


That was two lifetimes ago it seems.... 22 years ago seems like a fair assumption... :icon_roll

Those fish should do well for you and would be a nice addition ! They like the water temp cooler to get those colors. Back in the day if I could catch it, it went in the tank. Pickerel were always fun but grew wicked fast !

BTW... if even one thing is outta whack it cant be entered as a biotope so stick to your guns man... this tank is a beauty !


----------



## unirdna

greenmiddlefinger said:


> When you kick that off, make sure not to give them the idea that Japanese Swamp Shrimp are a part of the natural diet of American Bass. :tongue:


Unforturnately, the excellent photo taken by Steve has undoubtedly been played out many (many many) times in Japan already. Despite being in the "new world", The U.S. is not the sole importer of invasive species. According to two scientists from Japan who visited the University of Wisconsin last year, Emperor Akihito was given the fish as a gift from the Mayor of Chicago, some time back in the 60's. They have since spread from the royal grounds to many other waters around Japan, and are decimating native species (imagine that :icon_roll ). The claim that the emperor, himself, was at fault is hotly disputed in Japan. Some claim that immigrants to the east coast brought them back to Japan and put them in the emperor's ponds as a hoax. The scientist that visited the University were researching just this. I helped them catch specimens from many Midwest waterways as part of their research. In turn, they also employed some eastern US universities to help them catch specimens. They were hoping that enough genetic drift has occured between the two different locations to be able to differentiate between the two. Then, of course, they would compare the genetics of the "Japanese bluegill" to the two potential US strains; getting them a bit closer to an answer to the question of WHO introduced the fish to Japan.

By the way, I'm sorry the bass is being such a turd, Steve. But, that pic of him eating the shrimp is incredible. If possible, drop a link with a high-res photo. I'd love to have that one!!

Ted


----------



## scolley

*Shrimp lovers - Skip this post!*

Buck - Thanks, I'm sticking with it. Even if it means the plan has to be modified as I go, such as when the bass gets too big. It's not intented as a permanent 'scape anyway.

Ted - you told a great story. But you didn't tell the end! Who introduced the fish?

The bass had two little "hairs" sticking out of it's mouth last night, and a huge bulge in it's side. We eventually figured out that the "hairs" were shrimp antennae (or whatever they are). So I'm sure the Amano's will soon be gone in that tank.

I wish I had better shrimp eating pics for you Ted. But the others were pretty bad. Here is a sequence of the best one's though, all clickable to a very large original. _So don't click any of these_, unless you are _ready to wait_ a while. 

When I first spotted the little trouble maker...
 

And the fish, a couple of minuted later, having trouble choking it down.
 

Looking for a nice private place to finish things off.
 

The original pic.
 

All swallowed now, but not so much that the bass can close it's mouth.
 

This is the one that made me mad really. The bass has just spit the shrimp out. You can see it laying injured on a leaf in the lower left. After spitting it out, the bass watched it for a moment, and then swam off looking for other prey. I was not pleased to find that it would eat things that it couldn't eventually hold down, just causing death and injury.


----------



## timr

He taught that shrimp a lesson!


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> Ted - you told a great story. But you didn't tell the end! Who introduced the fish?
> 
> This is the one that made me mad really. The bass has just spit the shrimp out.



Don't know about the ending. Maybe I'll drop those scientists an email this week and see what conclusions they reached. My money is on the Emperor...

I don't know how you let that bass stay in your tank after that display. You have zen-like patience, Steve.

..and thanks for posting those pics. The high-rez version of the original is my new backdrop. You wife loves it when I switch things around :icon_roll .

Ted


----------



## scolley

unirdna said:


> I don't know how you let that bass stay in your tank after that display. You have zen-like patience, Steve.


It's not patience. It's just accepting that having the bass means losing the shrimp. Which BTW, I believe the last one is gone now. There was one shrimp left, that I could see, as of last nite. And now the bass is hiding from view, with 2 even longer "hairs" sticking out of its mouth, and a massive lump in its side. I guess it figured out how to keep the big ones down.

It's my single SAE that I'm worried about. The two loaches never sit still, so the gar ignores them. It doesn't seem to attack moving prey, but instead sneaks up on things foolish enough to sit still. And the SAE sits still sometime. So the gar seems to have made it a personal mission to stalk that poor fish, even if it is larger in diameter than it is, and a good 1/2 its length.

The drama continues...


----------



## bigstick120

Steve I love the tank and the theme. Being a cichlid owner it is a very similar with what new fish you introduce will be destroyed. When trying to introduce an alage crew almost everything I put in the tank was gone in an hour or 2. Most of which was bigger then the cichlids. But I love my cichlids and that is the only fish that I want in the tank. Its trial and error. Good luck with the tank


----------



## scolley

bigstick120 said:


> Its trial and error. Good luck with the tank


Thanks bigstick! Yes, I've accepted the fact that that is absolutely what it will be... trial and error, with some frustrations and unwanted losses along the way.

At the moment though, I'm really encouraged by the fact that the bass actively schools with the two loaches. They are almost exactly the same size, and it follows them all over, side by side. So maybe it will imprint on them or something. But I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

Trial and error to be sure...



*Algae, algae, algae*
Speaking of which, when I mentioned that I was getting algae on the glass, and on the sand, the recommendation was to cut my micros back by 50%. I did that and got algae on the glass the following week. So I cut them back an additional 50% at my last water change 3 days ago and now I've got algae on the glass. No bad, but it's there. It takes weeks to get any visible algae on the glass of my 20g, maybe longer.

What gives?



*Surface Circulation Woes*
All the lovely lily pads on the surface of the water has caused a new problem - surface scum! With the two lily pipe on the left side, at the top, I get a nice gentle (approx 250 gph) flow across the tank. Or rather I did.

Now lily pads on the surface significantly impede the return current from the other side. And scum accumulates. While I should be happy that everything is pearling, with the 30ppm of CO2 I'm keeping, the bubbles just accumulate at the surface on the other side and turn into an ugly froth.

Does it harm Nymphaea if you cut down their leaves on the surface? What about the leave from banana plants that hit the surface?

Something's got to give. This scum does not make for a lovely tank. :icon_frow 



*Subsurface Circulation Woes*
Also the sword on the right hand side is right on the edge of an outflow port. It's hidden behind the cypress alien Buddha thing. And it is making that poor plant get a lot of brown algae. I've seen this in my 20g, where I had a sword that was always getting blown around by an inflow. The high speed current in that local area seemed to accelerate algae growth on the sword. It was fine once I moved the inflow off it

I assume the same thing is going on here. But I can't move that outflow. It's quite permanent. Or at least until I tear down the tank.



*Water Parameters*
I suppose if I'm gonna moan about algae, I have to cough up some water parameters. I'm gonna stick to NPK nomenclature since I'm sticking with good ole reliable Seachem until things stabilize, then I'll switch to dry...

N - 15 ppm target, has been falling to 8 though before I catch it
P - 1.5 ppm target, has been falling to 9
K - 20 ppm target, not testing (no kidding)
Fe - 1.5 ml this week (into 75g), not testing
Micros (TMG) - 1.5 ml this week 
Mg - Just enough magnesium sulfate to raise 75 from GH 5 to 6.5
NaHCO3 - just enough to raise KH from 3.5 to 4.5
CO2 - target 30 ppm
pH - 6.5-6.7
KH - 4.5
GH - 6.5


----------



## BlueRam

In my experience, lilies (and particularly banana plants) send up cute little submersed leaves, until, one make it to the surface. Once a leaf is on the surface all attention goes there. Something like an all out war for light ensues. So watch the illy and cut any upstarts that head for the surface and you will have a nice submersed specimen. Rumor says that you can cut the banana 4" down and end up with a new plant but I am yet to have any luck.



scolley said:


> *Surface Circulation Woes*
> Now lily pads on the surface significantly impede the return current from the other side. And scum accumulates. While I should be happy that everything is pearling, with the 30ppm of CO2 I'm keeping, the bubbles just accumulate at the surface on the other side and turn into an ugly froth.
> 
> Does it harm Nymphaea if you cut down their leaves on the surface? What about the leave from banana plants that hit the surface?


----------



## scolley

*Sick (dying?) Gar*

The gar appears to be not well. Not moving, on the bottom, breathing slowly.











It hasn't eaten in 4-5 days. I haven't fed it to keep its size down. Is that an issue? I don't know how a gar is supposed to act. It seems like it's been acting healthy - swimming around, stalking my SAE. And I don't know if this is a natural behavior, saving energy or something.

Or maybe it's just sick and/or dying. :icon_frow


----------



## scolley

*What the... ?*

 OK, now it's up! Fifteen minutes later and doing it's usual thing, hanging around at the top, slowly making the circuit, looking down for its next meal (I assume). 

What was that bottom squatting about? Getting the human all worked up - having a bit of fun? Natural energy saving, no issue? Energy saving, and needs a meal badly? Or sick?

Advice or insight would be much appreciated.


----------



## unirdna

When I go diving, I see gar doing this from time to time. It's like a state of torpor. I don't know what/why they do it, but they remain so entranced that you can grab them with your hands. Seems like they take a second or two to realize what's going on... Many lie-and-wait predators (like pike) do this, but gar seem to fall in the hardest. Add the fact that their scales are very rough and allow them to bend only a fraction as much as more derived fish, and they will never get away once you have a hold of them. Nevertheless, people on the boat seem much more impressed when you catch a gar than any other fish (probably because they are shaped like a torpedo).

Ted


----------



## scolley

unirdna said:


> Nevertheless, people on the boat seem much more impressed when you catch a gar than any other fish (probably because they are shaped like a torpedo).


When you say "catch", if you mean "grab with your hand", I'd be impressed too! Mine's not 6" long and I made my son watch it will I stuck my arms in the tank for trimming this weekend, wimp that I am. As it turned out of course, that fish could care less about my arm - clearly it's not a fish!

Thanks for the quick response Ted. I hoped it was something like that, and I'll assume that with it being a natural, common occurrence, this doesn't mean I have to rush out to get food. I'll stick with my current once a week plan, till new info (like growing too fast or starving) indicates a need for change.

Thanks! Glad it's not dying. Short of a bottom feeder, that's the first time I've ever seen a fish just sit on the bottom, that wasn't actually checking out for good. :icon_bigg


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> I made my son watch it when I stuck my arms in the tank for trimming this weekend, wimp that I am.


 :hihi: 

I hope that your fish's behavior was natural and not stress related. But, if he's up and about now, my guess is that it was natural. 

And yeah, I mean "grab them with my hand". It's really not very difficult, but when you freedive down to 50ft and come up with a 1m fish with a mouth full of teeth, most people are pretty impressed :fish:. Nothing's hard, once you know how to do it roud: (except golf).


----------



## baj

scolley said:


> OK, now it's up! Fifteen minutes later and doing it's usual thing, hanging around at the top, slowly making the circuit, looking down for its next meal (I assume).
> 
> What was that bottom squatting about? Getting the human all worked up - having a bit of fun? Natural energy saving, no issue? Energy saving, and needs a meal badly? Or sick?
> 
> Advice or insight would be much appreciated.



They are PhD students in their 5th year....like me..... sudden bursts of activity followed by dejection and brooding and asking " what the &^%& am I doing here....." then a burst of activity to get out, and then again more "what the.....". Its unlikely, but I see a pattern here....


----------



## scolley

LOL! :hihi:


----------



## PinkRasbora

Aww....poor shrimp. *holds a burial cerimony* Thought about making a tank to put that bass in yet? :tongue: Just kidding, anyways that tank looks awsome as always. And I had never seen a gar till this thread. They look so cute! roud:


----------



## Buck

> Energy saving, and needs a meal badly? Or sick?


You cannot "control" the size of these fish without sacrificing the health of them. They grow fast and they grow large. The first year of any living thing is the most important, they develop the most physically and require the most food. This is why I was saying to be ready for maintenance. That Gar should be eating 2 feeder guppies a day for now (12 hours apart) and the bass the same if not more. Within 6 weeks that number will double I'd be willing to bet and then you will be dropping comets for the bass not long after that. 
That creates a lot of poop man... 

Your Gar only headed to the bottom to conserve energy. I had a snakehead that would do the same. They are a top 1/3rd layer fish like the Gar and I always knew when it was time to feed him.

But you know that I always give you some good news too, so here it is... both the bass and the gar will take feeders from your hand eventually if ya work with 'em . My friends always used to ask if they could feed them ! 
I never did find ANYONE with the guts to feed my Tiger Knife by hand after they saw it once... they loved to watch it but wouldnt try it. I could tell some stories about that fish but many might find it cruel in how it ate... especially the "goldfish" fans. :tongue:

Im babblin' now... all Im saying is ya better feed them fish man, they are gonna grow despite their diet. Their physical nature and "needs" has allready been pre-determined by mother nature herself... _Feed Me Seymour_ LMAO !

Could you do me a favor Steve... when you get some guppies and its feeding time how about treating an ole bass keeper to a video ? I know you have the technology for a great movie roud:


----------



## scolley

Thanks Pink! I think it's cute too. That's not why I got it, but I'm glad it worked out that way!

Buck - Did you read unirdna's post about his 10", 5 yr old gar? It was all about restricted feeding. And he's a marine biologist, or something like that.  

Anyway, I'm sure the bass requires food on a regular basis. But if I'm to believe unirdna (Ted), then the gar can stretch out a little longer. I'm willing to believe those siesta's on the bottom are an indicator that it's about feeding time though. That's why I fed them both today!

And it's a miracle the gar got anything. Buck, I'll happy take one of my low-res videos. But a video of the bass feeding will just be a one very,very short blur. If I film it eating two or three feeders, it will only be a short blur. That thing chases and eats fish so fast you have to see it to believe it.

I'll try to get a video of the gar too. But that's harder. It does that slow-mo sneak-up thing that can take 15 minutes, and I don't really have a digital camcorder, just a camera that will take a minute or so of video. But for you pal, you know I'll try.  

If that works, I'll take a video of me trying to feed it by hand. Then I'll take a video of the micro-surgeon sewing the nerves in my ripped up fingers back, as a kind of end-of-show bloopers thing. :hihi:


----------



## Georgiadawgger

baj said:


> They are PhD students in their 5th year....like me..... sudden bursts of activity followed by dejection and brooding and asking " what the &^%& am I doing here....." then a burst of activity to get out, and then again more "what the.....". Its unlikely, but I see a pattern here....



That's a great analogy!! Went through that in my last (fourth) year...except my burst of activity was full of "F" bombs and other four-lettered explitives!! Sure does feel nice to be in the real world again.


----------



## Georgiadawgger

Steve, Those photos of the shrimp-hunter are unbelievable...nice shots you got there (at the expense of the poor shrimp). It almost looks like someone is literally fishing with a lure in your tank!! 

How's the algae control going? 

I've actually dropped my micro's down a tad and the only thing I get is a dust on my glass here and there. I might suggest for you is to keep the nitrates up a bit more...and crank that co2 up near 40. I've got my pH around 45ish (kH aroudn 5.5-6 and pH around 6.6-6.7) and that has really kept any algae from establishing.


----------



## awrieger

Aussie_Star said:


> [RK] said:
> 
> 
> 
> They are $2 each here in Australia
> 
> 
> 
> where would that be?
Click to expand...

I'd like to know too. I've never seen any available here anywhere!

Scolley, your tank is looking great! I'm not so keen on the bass though after seeing his dietary habits!


----------



## scolley

Thanks awrieger - I'm afraid that bass eats any meat that will go in its mouth. It attacks algae wafers as they sink to the bottom (believe me - attack is the only suitable word), but it spits them out. Only now it has taken to sucking up bloodworms too, which used to be tossed in occasionally for my cleaner fish. Now the bass sucks most of that up before they can get it. :icon_frow 




Georgiadawgger said:


> How's the algae control going?


Thanks 'dwagger. The algae problem is alive a well, I'm afraid. I've got so much dust on the glass I've resisted the temptation to scrape it off, just to let it go a week to see how bad it would get. It seems to be just the same as it was when I went on vacation a 3 weeks ago.

Here's what's changed...
1) I removed the java fern coved driftwood. So I lost a bit of algae busting ability there. Maybe too soon...
2) I'm testing/dosing more frequently now, so I'm not drifting far off my targets.
3) My weekly micro dose is 1/4 what it used to be.

My parameters are all what I listed earlier this week.
CO2 - target 30 ppm
pH - 6.5-6.7
KH - 4.5
GH - 6.5
So maybe I do need to get my CO2 up a bit, it but it pretty much lives in the 25-40 range now, which should be OK.

Boy do I have dust on the glass though!


----------



## bharada

Steve,
Your trials with this tank are truely a classic sign of someone who is fully entrenched in their hobby! 

Having kept Oscars back in my fish-only days, your bass' eating behaviour is not surprising. The largest Oscar I had was about 10" and it could take on a 5" crayfish with remarkable ease, first backing it into a corner, then making a lightening strike over the top to get the tail end into its mouth. That fish had a real personality, but having to keep a 20g tank stocked with 20-30 feeder comets a week got to be a pain.

If you're truely trying to maintain a biotope setting maybe you should maintain a school of feeder minnows in the tank, too. This would leave the bass in much the same environment as if it were in the wild. I was able to net a handful of redfin shiners in a local stream and added these to my pond as mosquito control. Since they're living in the local streams I know they'll over winter here. What surprised me was that the males are really quite beautiful with a metallic blue/gray body and bright orange/red fins.


----------



## Oqsy

my offer still stands for as many mosquitofish as I can net, steve, as per our pm conversations... that is if you decide to go another route with the feeding schedule. I'm not going to weigh in on the feed lightly / provide plentiful food issue, as I have no experience and nothing to offer there. If you need indigenious feeders, mosquito fish breed like guppies and live throughout the south in streams, ditches, lakes, swamps, bayous, and ponds. i know you declined, but thought i'd toss it here in the thread as an option for anyone else that decides to follow your path down the line. it's also fun to have an excuse to get out there with a dip net, a gallon pitcher, and my 3 year old daughter. the bass and gar are both fantastic looking, and I'm very glad you've decided to stick by your guns on this experiment. you're setting the learning curve on this one, buddy. keep blazin' trails. 

Oqsy


----------



## jimjim

Scolley; Would you be interested in a native moss that looks similar to Java. Its called Willow or Pond moss here in Georgia and I find it in the swamps here west of Savannh. Theres also lots of red Myriophylum and others....Jim


----------



## scolley

Thanks Oqsy and Bill for the offers! roud: 

There are a lot of great "feeder" options here in the States, and I'm WAY tempted. My only issue is that somewhere between _starvation _ and _constant pig-out_ lies the path to healthy, but not overly stimulated, growth for my predators. I wish I know where that midpoint was, but I'm afraid that feeders breeding in the tank will be a bit closer to the pig-out option.

On top of that I only see two possible outcomes of feeders in the tank - one is that the predators just rip thru them until they are gone. The other is that they just can't eat that much, so the feeder population remains intact, but the predators just have the refrigerator door perpetually open.

I'm gonna wait, for now. Let's see how old this regular purchase of feeders gets. There's also the option of weaning them off live food...

I suppose I could try to keep a tank of feeders, but that just sounds like more work. But it would make for great pictures though. I could dip into the supply and get a LOT, more than the predators could eat in a few hours... wait for the feeding frenzy to wind down, then take pictures of a pretty natural looking environment. Hmmm......


jimjim - Do you have scientific names that I can look up? Or pictures? Interest high! Yes!


----------



## tnlovebugsboy187

*Betas and Neon Tetra's*

Hi I just bought a 2 gallon tank and i right now have 3 neon tetra's living in it. The set-up includes a lil rock house, a plant, air filter, pump, and a light.

Now the question is would it be ok if i put 1 male or female betta in there? And would it be to crowded? Please e-mail me your response at [email protected]

Thank You
Michael


----------



## scolley

Gee... not sure how to respond here... so...

Michael - Welcome to the planted tank! While this is a board focused on the challenges of growing plants in a freshwater aquarium, we do have a fish forum. You can find that here, where you might want to use the search function to see if anyone had a similar question in the past. And if not, start a thread of there with your question!

Welcome aboard!


----------



## jimjim

*USA Mosses*

Scolley; I've got just a cheap camera but heres a pic of the moss in a grow out tank for Tangs. Its not been cleaned in a couple of weeks. I'm in the process of moving and setting up my last tank....Jim


----------



## Steven_Chong

hmm . . . if it grows in the US my guess would be fontinalis-- especially if the common name is willow moss.

Edit: Sorry in advance for thread jacking! Oqsy-- you have access to a fish called "heterandria formosa" or "least killiefish" (another small southern fish) too?


----------



## jimjim

Greenmiddlefinger: How many Heterandria do you want? 2/3/4/5 thousand? They're yours for the net swiping in the ditches around here. I don't understand the killie designation tho, they're live bearers and called Mosquitoe Fish locally. I used them for live food for a long time. Have you ever noticed that one mans bait fish is anothers gold?. My cousin in Australia uses Rainbow fish for fishbait....Jim..PS, I think you're right on the mosses name, I just looked it up. Apparantly its found all over the US.


----------



## bharada

jimjim said:


> ...Have you ever noticed that one mans bait fish is anothers gold?. ....Jim


Or dinner :icon_lol:

As a kid in Hawaii we used to eat all kinds of reef fish like tangs, angels, wrasses...whatever was unlucky enough to take our bait. Not that we were after these type of fish, but whatever we caught we ate.


----------



## scolley

jimjim said:


> Scolley; I've got just a cheap camera but heres a pic of the moss in a grow out tank for Tangs. Its not been cleaned in a couple of weeks. I'm in the process of moving and setting up my last tank....Jim


Pic looks fine to me Jim! Yeah, I'd be interested in the moss. I guess it depends on the quantity/cost. Can you PM me?

The Myriophylum I'll take a pass on. I know it's supposed to be really beautiful and all that, but growing up, to me it was just an awful weed. If you've got something that is so lovely that it will make me eat my words, pls PM me that too. But short childhood impressions are hard to shake.

Thanks!


----------



## jimjim

*red myriophylum*

Scolley, Look at these pics and see if you like the Myriophylum....Jim, PS Yes they are that red...


----------



## scolley

Wow! OK that's one damn good looking native weed! Pls throw that into the equation! I'm game!


----------



## kzr750r1

As usual Steve this is a learning experiance for all of us. I have never heard of this plant and it has an interesting color and texture. Somthing new for me at least. 

As for the feeding your bass. Switch to ghost shrimp if the little bugger likes them so much. At leat he wont be hungry for minnows or other feeder fish the Gar will be focusing on.

Going back to the pearling I noticed. Your plants health is far better than my return to planted tanks. I struggled for a year balancing and learning what it needed. I have not been dosing near what I was and have had better results. As long as the CO2 is up and the plants don't look retarded I'm trying to keep the micros down a bit to keep the dust off the glass. Although your using much more light than I, it's always a tight rope act IMO.

Again keep up the good work mon. roud:


----------



## jimjim

*native plants*

Just to tease everyone here, all the plants in that tank picture are native here...Jim


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> As for the feeding your bass. Switch to ghost shrimp if the little bugger likes them so much. At leat he wont be hungry for minnows or other feeder fish the Gar will be focusing on.


Yeah, that could be my best food option. But once I decide on the food, I still have to deal with the _starvation _ and _constant pig-out_ extremes. And it sounds like the only way to manage that is grow the food supply in another tank. I'm giving that some thought...



kzr750r1 said:


> Going back to the pearling I noticed. Your plants health is far better than my return to planted tanks. I struggled for a year balancing and learning what it needed. I have not been dosing near what I was and have had better results. As long as the CO2 is up and the plants don't look retarded I'm trying to keep the micros down a bit to keep the dust off the glass. Although your using much more light than I, it's always a tight rope act IMO.


Tight rope act? Really? Shucks, and all this time I thought it was voodoo!  

I appreciate your pearling observations. Thanks! Got it every day. But I've got dust on the glass like nobody's business also. And my micros have been cut down to nothing...

I've been thinking about the CO2, and have come to the conclusion that it's enough. Most of the time it's in the mid 30's, and never lower than high 20's. I'm really hesitant to tinker with it much more. As it stands now, my pH dives down to 6.5 frequently, and that's about where my comfort level stops. I suppose I could raise my KH higher than 4.5, but that seems a really good number too. No, I'm going to sit on the CO2 ppm for a while.

But I did make a radical change today, though it's going to raise some eyebrows. I did my water change, and upon dosing, I changed my targets. Per Tom B's latest publication (it's not going to stay under wraps forever), I changed them to N-20ppm, P-2.8ppm, and K-28ppm. The result was pearling insanity.

I'm telling you, it looked like I'd poured carbonated water into the tank! I know that the hyperoxegenated water from a water change promotes pearling due to the relative saturation of oxygen. It's lovely, and I've been watching that for a while now... But this was different. This was _everything _ pearling. _Everything_.

So maybe this will help the dust. Maybe not. Let you know after a week or so shows a difference (or not).  But thanks for noticing the pearling. It feels good to be getting something right, even though I still don't really know what I'm doing! :hihi:


----------



## kzr750r1

I agree with your CO2 numbers. Scratching my head about the dust though since your not dumping micros. Maybe others have some thoughts...???

As I have learned every setup is different and as we have both learned from PJAN and Tom B bio mass has alot to do with what the tank needs (feed me seymore) to be healthy.

I haven't been to concerned about little pearling (in my tank) and wonder if this is a by product of the ammount of light and the bio mass you maintain. I too enjoy watching the O2 but it rarely happens for me. 

Good night mon I need to get out of the office and get home. :icon_roll


----------



## Steven_Chong

Hey SColley! I totally know what you mean about having trouble shaking childhood impressions. I don't think I'll ever see anacharis or hornwort as attractive-- seeing them in all the petstores as cheapo plants and removing them from the streams during community service clean-ups . . . damn invasive species . . . and yet, I have a sick obsession in collecting anacharis' relatives . . . all the lovely weeds . . .

On that note, the whole one man's trash v. treasure thing-- heterandra formosa are that easy to find!? MAN I LOVE THOSE LITTLE FISH!!!

Also, coming form hawai'i, I have eaten all the aforementioned desirable tropical fish. :tongue: bharada, did you guys eat manini? Those ones are tasety. My friends and I go spear fishing from time to time.


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## bharada

greenmiddlefinger said:


> ...bharada, did you guys eat manini? Those ones are tasety. My friends and I go spear fishing from time to time.


Must be hundreds of them. Manini and maomao always seemed to be the easiest fishes to hook on a bamboo pole.


----------



## Oqsy

sorry, never seen heterandia formosa in local waters, but i understand that they are around here some places... the only fish i've netted is gambusia affinis (as opposed to holbrooki, the species that's east of the mississippi, and comes in a melanistic (ie dalmation molly) color variety). These basically look like common guppies witout color. Just some bluegreen sheen on the scales and a bluish eye with a faint vertical black stripe across it. Interestingly, they seem to like foraging for algae in my tanks. Making my job a lot easier, since I really don't want to buy 10 oto cats to find one that's healthy enough to live in the tank with them. Plus, my goal for my nano is locally collected plants, driftwood, and fish. I have r. indica in there now, but it will be replaced with lysimachia and / or ludwigia soon. tried hydrocotyle, but it sent too many leaves to the surface, got unsightly.

Oqsy

[EDIT: I forgot to mention that I accidentally scooped some tilapia fry with moquitofish the first time I collected them (drove 35 miles to a lake when it turns out they're less than 3 blocks from me in a ditch that's very accessible and clean... doh!) The tilapia fry didn't last long, and my bumblebee goby is still a little plump from chomping on them]


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## scolley

scolley said:


> I appreciate your pearling observations. Thanks! Got it every day.


Did I say that? And did I say that it was pearling _insanity _ yesterday? Well, for all that boasting and bravado, I barely got any pearling at all today.

Man. This is one excellent hobby to take up if you need something to keep you humble. :icon_frow


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## Safado

scolley said:


> Man. This is one excellent hobby to take up if you need something to keep you humble. :icon_frow


Before you start talking about being humbled, take a look at this thread's hits and replies! :icon_bigg You have lots of followers. I would subscribe to this thread, but there is no need. I can luckily count on a new response when I log in. Thanks for the great pictures and learning oportunities!


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## scolley

Safado said:


> Before you start talking about being humbled, take a look at this thread's hits and replies! :icon_bigg You have lots of followers.


Thanks a mil'! I know there are a lot of people following this, as with the DIY build of the tank. (I still appreciate the support on that folks!)

But my statement was not false modesty. I didn't really know what I was doing building that tank - showered with information, some good, some bad, and some important stuff not available at all. It was a learning experience. I assume that's where people's interest was in that thread. Watching an honest and reasonably well documented exploration. Not to mention a bit of humor here and there. :hihi: And a bit of drama. :icon_eek: 

Well this thread is pretty similar. I don't really know what I'm doing here. I've got one year's experience with 1 small 20g tank. And now I'm trying to do something a bit bigger, a bit harder, and if I'm successful, a whole lot nicer to look at. But like the tank building thread, this is the same attempt to document the process of weeding out the good information from the bad, and finding the missing info.

I suppose the shrimp eating supplied a bit of drama. So, I guess I'm a bit overdue now on some humor...

*Tank Update*
Not much to report there really. I've cut some of the floating leaves in the tank, beginning the process of keeping the plants lower. But I still want some on the surface, just like real life.

I've gotten a good bit of native plants from people on the board. Thanks! roud: They are all in my 20g for grow out and making sure they are suitable. Something good has got to take off soon though, because I've got to replace those swords before they spread roots to China.

The predators are full. I mean busting out at the seams. I tossed in a lot of feeders, and many of them are still cruising the tank. Both the bass and the gar are just hanging out, not moving a bit. They both ate so much they look like something from a cartoon.

And I'm checking out the possibility of putting a small glass shrimp/live breeder tank in the stand to grow feeders. But I don't want to add a bunch of work. Or noise.

The Tek light is fan-less, and the Eheim is whisper quiet. So I'm not keen to have something gurgling beneath the stand, just to grow native food.


----------



## scolley

unirdna said:


> ...could I press you for a room photo. I would love to see how this tank affects the surroundings.


This isn't really a great pic, in that you can't see the whole room. But I don't have a wide angle lens. I backed up as far as could...

The tank is in our family room. The couch in front of the tank has the TV (center of the universe, especially during certain sporting seasons!) in front of it. And off to the right of the tank you can see my old 20g, that I'm using for low-tech grow out now. I wanted to retire the tank, but my wife refused to part with the fish. And we don't have any other good place to put it. I really want to move it, as it detracts from the 75g.










The pic was taken in ambient light. I've got better focused shots with the flash, but this is a bit closer to what it looks like to be in the family room at night, when we are usually there. There's an exposure problem in that the tank at night doesn't really look as bright as it does in this pic.

But you can trust me that I spend a lot of time with my butt on that couch, watching TV with the family, beer/drink on the coffee table, and me constantly turning back, chin on the back of the couch, gazing at the tank.


----------



## baj

scolley said:


> But you can trust me that I spend a lot of time with my butt on that couch, watching TV with the family, beer/drink on the coffee table, and me constantly turning back, chin on the back of the couch, gazing at the tank.


Ah! the good life! Doesnt the tank light shine on your tv?


----------



## DaAverageJoe

Oooo nice house scolley! Tank looks like a good centerpiece for the room, lights are real bright 
I also see you got the time to remove the java fern, are you gonna add something to the center of the tank?


----------



## Oqsy

scolley: pm inbox is full, my man. got a reply to yours when it's all clear.

Oqsy


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## scolley

PM's cleared out now - Sorry!

And BELIEVE me, the tank is not as bright as it looks in that pic! That's an artifact of my low-end camera (or possibly lack of photographic skills  ). Otherwise you would not be able to see the TV at all. It's just not that bright.

And yeah, no more Java Fern. It has a new home with one of our other fine board members! And nothing is going there - the design calls for a cut in the middle. It's a long way from a finished product. Hopefully one of these days I'll be able to show you why. Right now, it's got to stabilize, then I can begin to work that middle space. Good eye though! roud:


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## BlueRam

scolley:

Looks like you are AGA ready. It would be a disappointment to not see you there!


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## Betowess

Ah, there is no way to correct for the difference between a Tek light 54wattx6 and ambient light, my friend Steve. That's like trying to shoot with both sun and shade and getting a perfect exposure. Can't happen. You did what you could, photographically speaking. I like the line of looking wistfully back at your endevour, wine in hand. Well done. 
ps... Just made a nice little "screen" for the top of my tank, out of 1X6 hemlock.. for my blinding Tek light. I can take it off in an instant, and I'm going to put two moon light in it. Basically, it keeps me from being retina burned by the 4x54 watt, when seated. Of course I don't have a low lead frameless gem to obscure. But I wish I did. Then I might not mind being flashed by the Tek. roud: bob


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## Buck

Steve I was at the golf course yesterday with a baggie in my bag but the pond is down 4 ft and nothing available for the ludwigia's. My stream up the road has NO water...I cant believe how dry it is around here. It sounds though like you have plenty to keep you busy...LOL

Lookin good man ! 

PS

I miss the ferns... :icon_redf :icon_bigg


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## TAM

I miss the ferns too. Well really what I liked was the darkness of the driftwood at the end of the alley/path... made it look mysterious. Without the ferns the entire tank brightens up and is lush and green.

Keep up the great work and thank you for sharing.

TAM


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## scolley

BlueRam said:


> Looks like you are AGA ready. It would be a disappointment to not see you there!


WOW! That's one of the nicest things anyone has ever said to me! Thanks!

I'm not going to be in AGA though this year, I'm afraid. I have agonized over this. I know the tank is worthy of entry, but I would really like to enter a tank that will be a contender. And this tank is not in that league IMO. Yet...

AGA limits you to entering a tank once, I believe. So if I enter it this year, I can't improve it and swing back next year. And I believe this will be a big year for improvement in this tank.

By waiting until next year, I know I lose a bit of the "surprise" element in entering a relatively uncommon tank... use of upright wood, use of cypress, a "path" in the middle, and native American plants and fish. If any of these ideas are any good, I expect to see more if it next year now.

Having worked with Bonsai has taught me patience - focusing on what something "can" be, and what you have planned for it, rather than what it "is". And that is _much _ better than what you see now.

No, if a tank only gets one shot, then I'm gonna wait 'till 2006.





Betowess said:


> Ah, there is no way to correct for the difference between a Tek light 54wattx6 and ambient light, my friend Steve.
> 
> Just made a nice little "screen" for the top of my tank, out of 1X6 hemlock.. for my blinding Tek light. I can take it off in an instant, and I'm going to put two moon light in it. Basically, it keeps me from being retina burned by the 4x54 watt, when seated.


Thanks for that, on the "ambient" thing. Hopefully people can believe that it's just not as bright as it looks in that shot. It's quite pleasant really. But it is funny that the reflected/spill-over light from the Tek (only 2 x 54w in the evenings) is enough to softly illuminate the room. When the timer shuts it off at 8:30, we are all surprised as we are plunged into darkness!

The screen thing sounds like a good idea. And the only thing I don't like about the Tek is the lack of moonlights. I look forward to how that works out! roud: 





Buck said:


> Steve I was at the golf course yesterday with a baggie in my bag but the pond is down 4 ft and nothing available for the ludwigia's.


Buck - you are _too _ nice dude! I really do appreciate that! But you are right, I do have my hands full. I'm getting LOTS of great support from the good people on this board, so I have all sorts of stuff in my grow-out now!

Thanks though! I feel bad that you went to all that trouble for nothing... :icon_frow 





TAM said:


> I miss the ferns too. Well really what I liked was the darkness of the driftwood at the end of the alley/path... made it look mysterious.


Thanks TAM. I agree with your opinion entirely. It added a lot of "mystery" and some great shadows.

But its removal will force me into turning the "path" what I intended it to be. Hopefuly soon, that will create its own form of "mystery". If I can pull it off. 

Removing the fern will also force me to start 'scaping to compliment the dueling focal points I want to create - hard left, and mid-right. If I can pull that off, the observer should find themselves visually drawn back-and-forth, observing from left to right, giving the impression that the tank is larger than it really is.

Time will tell. But the fern is gone now, so it forces me to stick to the plan.


----------



## Phil Edwards

scolley said:


> I'm not going to be in AGA though this year, I'm afraid. I have agonized over this. I know the tank is worthy of entry, but I would really like to enter a tank that will be a contender. And this tank is not in that league IMO. Yet...
> 
> AGA limits you to entering a tank once, I believe. So if I enter it this year, I can't improve it and swing back next year. And I believe this will be a big year for improvement in this tank.


Steve,

You can enter your tank as many times as you'd like as long as the pictures are different. A number of people have entered tanks on consecutive years. 

Why are you afraid? You've got a great looking tank! I can say with 110% certainty that those of us who have something to do with the running of the AGA are really sad when folks don't enter because they're afraid that their tank "isn't good enough". I'm personally very upset to see that the AGA showcase has become something of an "elite" deal where "only the good enough enter". That's not what it was supposed to be. 

Having participated myself, I understand the sentiment of wanting to be a contender. Having judged the contest I can say that I was *really* upset to see the lack of participation from the people who I know have great tanks but just couldn't bring themselves to hit the "enter" button. All of those Super-scapes are nice, but I'd rather see 200 tanks by the average hobbyist out there than 10 by the Aquascapers du Jour. Please enter your tank!!

Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

*Aaaaarrrrggghhhh!!!!*



Phil Edwards said:


> You can enter your tank as many times as you'd like as long as the pictures are different. A number of people have entered tanks on consecutive years.


Phil - Thanks for that clarification! BlueRam caused me to go back and check your rules again, and I saw that I had been mistaken about multi-year entries. I'm not sure where I picked that up from...  

But now I'm in a real quandary! Since I decided that I was going to take my "mistaken" one shot next year, two days ago I did some pretty brutal cuts to the tank. Not to mention letting the fish pig out. They are so bloated now they look more like finned aquatic balloons than fish!

Well, I guess I better start cleaning up the tank, and warming up the camera...

Ohh noooo. :icon_eek:


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## Phil Edwards

Use some of your most recent pre-hack photos, don't worry about trying to whip the tank into shape in three days. 

Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

Thanks for the advice Phil. But I did an additional "shape up" (was going to let some parts grow out more...) and it looks a bit better already! roud:


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## BlueRam

Scolley:

Same here... I hacked last Friday and was fortunate that enough grew back by the time Eric made it over on Saturday. So lets just say my tank is nowhere as impressive as yours and you will have a chance to see it posted anyways. 

The AGA calls for 2-5 photos with one being a full shot. You have that already on your posts. For the others I think the Bass eating the shrimp back on ~page 4 is a winner and of course, the gar. 

You can enter in biotope (7 tanks, the winner: http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=1&vol=-1&id=20) or even in the "main" class (many)

In addition to the judged prizes, there is a "popular choice" too. Judging by the posts on this thread alone I would say your tank is popular!

FYI, you can post to the ADA contest too with your same $5! I believe tanks 1-500 get a shiny pamphlet with all the other tanks. 

It would be a disappointment if you were not there.



scolley said:


> But now I'm in a real quandary! Since I decided that I was going to take my "mistaken" one shot next year, two days ago I did some pretty brutal cuts to the tank. Not to mention letting the fish pig out. They are so bloated now they look more like finned aquatic balloons than fish!


----------



## scolley

Thanks BlueRam. I'll be there! It's just a scramble now to get a decent shot or two...


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## Phil Edwards

Scolley,

I'd be careful about entering in Biotope, your tank is fairly broad in scope and aquascaped much more along the lines of an Aquatic Garden. You've got a better chance Large Aquatic Gardner than you do in Biotope, and I'm not just saying this because I'll be entering Biotope. :icon_bigg 

Last year's Rio Sucuri tank is actually quite accurate for the river. It had a few too many species for my personal taste, but it was at least limited to a specific waterway, whereas most of the rest weren't. 

Regards,
Phil


----------



## scolley

Thanks Phil. That's good advice. There are things in the tank that are general. But in the broad range where they are found, that range INCLUDES Cypress swamps on the Gulf Coast. Just because something is widespread, that doesn't mean it isn't found in a specific place. And as to how the tank is 'scaped, your guidelines say:

"The AGA Aquascaping Contest is concerned with the design of the aquascape shown in the biotope aquarium and much less with the accuracy of the representation as long as it's present in at particular biotope"​
Am I missing something? That sound's like an attempt to present an nice aquascape within the bounds of reasonable accuracy for the environment will be rewarded in the judging. But it sounds like you're implying that something that is too 'scaped does not belong in the category.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the advice. But IMO it is inconsistent with your guidelines.


----------



## scolley

*Additional comments on the last post*

IMO my tank isn't highly aquascaped anyway... At least not in the sense of a "Dutch" aquascape, with hard lines and rows. I'm mean sure, there were long decisions made as to what went where. But those decisions were all around placement that would look good aesthetically AND ALSO could easily occur in nature.

The only hard lines in the tank are those that would be carved by water flow - a natural thing. And the progression of height of the plants patterns after low cover around faster flow, and larger cover away from it, and around underwater structure. I dunno... deliberately 'scaped sure. But hopefully in a way that is consistent with nature.

If the biotope category should be a random jumble of rocks and/or wood with plants sprinkled in, then the quote from the AGA guidelines I referenced in my last post is inappropriate and misleading, IMO.


----------



## Steven_Chong

Hmm, I think if you read the comments on the actual entrants to that category-- they are a lot more @nal about the "biotopeness" than the contest description leads on. heh heh, except for Amano last year, I don't think he cared about biotopeness at all by his comments . . . :tongue: 

Out of curiosity, is white sand common in cypress forests or within the range you're using? 

Also, remember that they grade on plausibility of keeping the scape together I think, and I wonder if Mr. Bass will upset the judges . . .


----------



## scolley

Great Q's!


greenmiddlefinger said:


> Hmm, I think if you read the comments on the actual entrants to that category-- they are a lot more @nal about the "biotopeness" than the contest description leads on. heh heh, except for Amano last year, I don't think he cared about biotopeness at all by his comments . . . :tongue:


That is correct. Though the judging in this area didn't seem completely in adherence to the current guidelines, they do list a number of possible "inaccuracies" -

- Failing to represent the physical conditions of the biotope (for example, water color in a blackwater stream biotope aquarium). 
- Including species from different habitats to fulfill an aquaristic need, such as algae eaters or plants that grow well in low light. 
- Including species from a common region that do not inhabit the same biotope. 
- Including specimens that are related to native plants or animals but are hybrids, inbred strains or horicultural varieties not found in nature.​
And they further go on to add...

"Aquascapers who are concerned with their placement in the competition, and whose aquariums exhibit several of the inaccuracies above are encouraged to enter their aquariums in the Aquatic Garden category."​
I think this level of clarity is great. And it further implies that I might want to think real hard about not entering the category, at least until I can remove the siamensis and the java moss. (The loaches are there forever I'm afraid, as are the snails)

But if I did enter the Aquatic Garden category, it would be for these reason. IMO Phil's comment about around how the tank is 'scaped as a reason for going into the Aquatic Garden category is inconsistent with the guideline. Though I am absolutely certain that Phil's intentions were only in my best interest. Thanks Phil! roud: 





greenmiddlefinger said:


> Out of curiosity, is white sand common in cypress forests or within the range you're using?


White, no. Taupe, or very light tan, absolutely! I went to no small lengths to get the right colored sand, thought the glare of the lights tends to wash it out and make it look whiter than it is.





greenmiddlefinger said:


> Also, remember that they grade on plausibility of keeping the scape together I think, and I wonder if Mr. Bass will upset the judges . . .


Great point! I don't see "infinite sustainability" in the earlier mentioned "@nal" guidelines. If that is a judging criterion, they should openly state that. Which would be a pity of course, since it would preclude any biotope that has top level predators, which can only be included as juveniles except for in very, very large tanks.


----------



## Steven_Chong

oh! Taupe sand you say? That's so cool!! Very smart on that one Scolley. :icon_bigg 

I don't think the "scaped-ness" is important-- though Karen did make that one commen about "rocks not being stacked plausibly" on an african tank last year . . .  

Anyway, I think there is a "sustainability" criteria but it's not part of the "biotope-specific" rules. It's part of the rules for ALL the tanks. Like the blue jack-depsis being complained about in one of the other past entries (can't remember the year . . .)

I'm entering a [email protected], small biotope this year, and I'm curious to see how it does . . . black water, dead leaves, duck-weed infestation and all. I chose a biotope for the "aquarist need." Black Water dwarf puffer hab with java fern/moss for low-light and "wild form" cherry shrimp for algae eaters. The only aesthetic I really cared about was hard-scape arrangement. Yes, I will be interested in seeing how that does . . .


----------



## Kyle

Lets see pics of this black water biotope


----------



## Kyle

Does that thing smell at all?


----------



## Cheeseybacon

First of all Scolley, you have the exact same couch as I.

And secondly, I DEFINATELY think you need to enter the AGA contest. If you ask me, a lot of the previous biotope entries are really weak. I really think your tank would blow them away.


----------



## bastalker

Hey Steve! Great to see the tank up an runnin! Looks sweet bud! roud: I spent about the last 2 hours readin thru it. Then I got to the LMB part an bout tossed my drink all over myself :hihi: 

I read Sue an Bucks relies an a few others. They aint lyin bro!! I had a bassmaster mag that had a pic from a member down in Fla. He found a dead 7 lb bass floatin with another dead 7 lb bass hangin out of its mouth. Man if you leave that thing in there the only thing thats gonna be left of your ADA tank is that bass!! When ya get up one mornin an half yer scape is floatin, please give me a call...I have a 3/8 oz jig an pig he wont be able to resist :wink: 

All kidding aside...Amazing task that you took on from applyin the silicon to your scape! Looking forward to readin bout trials an tribulations of the LMB! :icon_bigg An the evolution of your tank!


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## Betowess

scolley said:


> The screen thing sounds like a good idea. And the only thing I don't like about the Tek is the lack of moonlights. I look forward to how that works out! roud:
> 
> 
> 
> Its really fairly simple. I planned it three sided, but made it two sided for now since I incorrectly measured a bevel cut. Someday I may buy another piece, but I never sit or approach the tank from that third side so its OK for now.
> 
> Basically I mounted a 2x2 high enough on the 1x6 to allow the 1x6 to hang down almost two inches to hide the black All Glass Aquar. frame ( something you don't have to contend with). Then the 2x2 rests on the top edge of the aquarium with the 1x6 hanging down the front face and sides of the tank. About two thirds of the 1x6 hemlock is above the tank with one third hiding the black plastic frame The 4x54 watt Tek nests nicely inside with its top barely visible, depending on how high the light is hanging... I plan to wire in some moon lights with some kind of quick disconnect cord to a timer in the base...
> 
> And I can pull it off in an instant for water change or algae scrapes. I'll try to post a pic later tonight. I'm fairly please with it, save for my boneheaded measuring skills... measure twice, cut wrong once and buy another piece, when or if I ever make it three sided, as planned. :icon_redf
> 
> Update: Here are a couple snaps of the unstained "screen" for what its worth. I like not getting the bright spill light and next I'll stain to match the stand and then get two or three moonlights. bob
Click to expand...


----------



## scolley

Kinda busy, and will reply to all later... thanks folks.

But just in case anyone was wonderin', I've agonized over the category of my AGA entry, and have decided to stick with Biotope. I've read the rules over and over, and belive the fitness of the tank for that category, as it exists today, is marginal. It will be dead on later. But for now it's on the edge, and will undoubtedly depend on the interpretation of judges.

But that's OK. No guts, no glory.  And I'm not afraid of losing.

BTW - there's not a _pseudo_-tope category is there? :hihi:

AND PS - if anyone thinks that's nuts, I'd be happy to hear about it. Thanks!


----------



## Phil Edwards

scolley said:


> IMO my tank isn't highly aquascaped anyway... At least not in the sense of a "Dutch" aquascape, with hard lines and rows. I'm mean sure, there were long decisions made as to what went where. But those decisions were all around placement that would look good aesthetically AND ALSO could easily occur in nature.
> 
> If the biotope category should be a random jumble of rocks and/or wood with plants sprinkled in, then the quote from the AGA guidelines I referenced in my last post is inappropriate and misleading, IMO.


Should a biotope be a random jumble of rocks, wood, and plants? Not at all! It should be highly planned and executed. I'd argue that one of the most difficult techniques in aquascaping is positioning hardscape in a fashion that truly mimics nature. I've been doing it with serious intent for eight years now and still find it next to impossible to do well. Add placing plants in a position that imitates where they would be without human 'help' and you've complicated things to the nth degree. It's the difference between looking natural and appearing to be wild. 

Personally, I think the biotope guidelines are completely out of whack. Biotopes, by definition, are intended to reproduce a specific natural environment as accurately as possible. Trying to adjudicate a biotope using traditional aquascaping strictures is ludicrous and lessens the intent behind the effort. Accuracy of plants and fish should be of utmost importance, followed by how well the designer aquascaped his/her tank based on how close to the original it appears to be. Substrate is a somewhat distant 3rd as it's often impossible to get truly precise substrates unless one collects it oneself. 

That's why it's called the 'Biotope -Aquascape-' and not strictly 'Biotope' category. :icon_conf 



scolley said:


> That is correct. Though the judging in this area didn't seem completely in adherence to the current guidelines, they do list a number of possible "inaccuracies" -
> 
> - Failing to represent the physical conditions of the biotope (for example, water color in a blackwater stream biotope aquarium).
> - Including species from different habitats to fulfill an aquaristic need, such as algae eaters or plants that grow well in low light.
> - Including species from a common region that do not inhabit the same biotope.
> - Including specimens that are related to native plants or animals but are hybrids, inbred strains or horicultural varieties not found in nature.
> 
> And they further go on to add...
> 
> "Aquascapers who are concerned with their placement in the competition, and whose aquariums exhibit several of the inaccuracies above are encouraged to enter their aquariums in the Aquatic Garden category."
> 
> I think this level of clarity is great. And it further implies that I might want to think real hard about not entering the category, at least until I can remove the siamensis and the java moss. (The loaches are there forever I'm afraid, as are the snails)
> 
> But if I did enter the Aquatic Garden category, it would be for these reason. IMO Phil's comment about around how the tank is 'scaped as a reason for going into the Aquatic Garden category is inconsistent with the guideline. Though I am absolutely certain that Phil's intentions were only in my best interest. Thanks Phil!


Hmm...I had a tank that met a couple of those above criteria. :icon_redf Thankfully I've found more precise sources of information since then. 

You're welcome, I really did have your interest in mind. Following the letter of the law is one thing, but the judges often have a lot to say about how a person followed the spirit of the law behind closed doors. It sometimes spills out into the open and I'd like to spare everyone the public and private hassles if it can be avoided. There's nothing like having someone who is in a position of authority and respect tear apart your hard work when it didn't need to happen in the first place. 

As far as what I was talking about aquascaping: the tank is done in what appears to be a heavily Nature Aquarium influenced style vs. one that is intended to mimic nature accurately. Aquascaping with the intent of an authentically natural appearance has its own techniques and methods even though it appears to be less formalized than Dutch or even Amano's style of aquascaping. 

Good luck, both of you! I'm really excited to see how the biotope category goes this year. There isn't a person on the planet who cares more about this category than I do. The more [and the more accurate] the better! :icon_bigg 

Regards,
Phil


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## Phil Edwards

Just to put my money where my mouth is, here's a shot of my current biotope. Thanks to a big seine, the fish were collected from a 12' circumference circle (3.8 square feet) and the plants were pulled up from that area after the fish were put in a bucket. Since the substrate was so loaded with clay and silt sediments I went upstream of the pond to collect the substrate. I did get a nice load of natural clay to mix with the bottom half of the sand though. Every attempt was made to keep what soil was sticking to the roots on the roots until planting to get as much microfauna in the soil as possible.

Not a great picture, I know, but then again, I'd rather spend my time practicing aquascaping than photography.










Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

Wow! Thanks Phil. That tank is hardcore! roud: 

And yes, _definately _ not what I'm doing. As you mentioned, my tank is defiantly a "nature influenced" vs. "nature mimicking". And I think that is the point. My read of the rules is a leaning toward "nature influenced", as long as that does not violate "several" of the possible types of inaccuracies. And I use quotes on the word several, for that is what it says - not one inaccuracy, not two, but "several". And none of those inaccuracies listed mentions not mimicking nature accurately enough in plant placement.

That said. I believe I qualify with the current rules, as written today.

But, as always, I believe your posts here are benevolent (Thanks, even if you are competing!), so I'd be foolish not to listen. I think I do qualify, but since you have been a judge, and since you believe the category call for rigorous accuracy (in spite of aparent guidelines to the contrary), then I think I should assume other judges will likewise follow what they think the category "should" have vs. what the guidelines allow. So I have a decision to make...

Should I stay with the biotope category, get publicly skewered by the judges, if only in the hopes of forcing a point on the large disconnect between the posted guidelines and the judging criterion?

- or -

Should I switch and hope for a long shot chance in the regular aquascape category?​
Gonna have to mull on that one for a while... Happy to take opinions though! Thanks.


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## Safado

I think you should go for the Biotope. the "rules" are quite clear. Let's leave it up to the judges to decide if they want to follow them. I certainly hope the judges weigh how closely a tank mirrors a natural biotope against how painful it is to look at. I have really enjoyed watching many of the Biotopes progressing, but I have to say that yours, Scolley, is the best I have yet seen. Will you see that exact layout and fish type/density? Possibly not, but you are on the money that other than a few temporary inclusions, you can find it all in your chosen Biotope, and above all, it is so much fun to look at. I wish I could see it in person. If the judges don't like the rules, they shouldn't have agreed to be judges.


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## scolley

*Mind changed...*

OK, I've given it a think. And I'll switch. But for two reasons...

1) _I don't want to be divisive_. But that doesn't change the fact that someone needs to do something about those guidelines. They stink. To have a set of judges grading on principles that are not consistent with published guidelines makes no sense, and should be fixed.

2) _I don't want to hurt people that are adhering to the "hard core accuracy principles". _ If the judges did actually judge by what the rules allow, someone swinging in with a "nature influenced" 'scape vs. a "nature mimicking" tank could really upset some peoples hard work. And that would be a shame for people that have worked so hard to achieve a level of accuracy that was no longer rewarded as highly due to a modification of the guidelines.​
So I'll switch to the regular Aquascape category in the morning. Though the possibility of a public skewering remains intriguing! :hihi:

And oh yeah... there's always next year, and this tank is getting more "accurate" every week!


----------



## Hop

Regardless I think that if there was a catergory for cutting edge tanks, setting new ground and raising the bar for the planted tank world... You've won hands down. Aquascaping will always be what draws people in, but the behind the scenes design, implementation and progression is almost non-existent.


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## Steven_Chong

QUOTE=Hop]Regardless I think that if there was a catergory for cutting edge tanks, setting new ground and raising the bar for the planted tank world... You've won hands down. Aquascaping will always be what draws people in, but the behind the scenes design, implementation and progression is almost non-existent.[/QUOTE]

That's for sure-- Scolley, in the long haul your tank is quite awesome in terms of the work you've put into the design and planning. Also the experimentation and leaps of faith you have put in is something any artist should be proud of. Also the limitations you've tried putting on your self (all the work you've done to try and edge this towards a biotope) have obviously resulted in interesting results and info for the rest of us to benefit from. :icon_bigg 

Hmm . . . I'm worried though that you will struggle in the aquatic garden category. You have excelled at plan and design, but I think your artistic eye, and some of the plants, have quite a bit of room to mature. It is a beautiful aquarium that surely brings interest and deep pleasure to all that see it, but if we're talking competition . . .

Please don't be dis-heartened by the commentary I'm going to make next. You are doing an amazing job! Here's what I think though:

Seeing a log stop with an edge completely parallel to the surface of the water and not hit the surface is a bit disturbing, unnatural. Without any plants attached to it (and this is a difficult shape to attach ferns/moss to) it causes an overwhelming pressence of warm color on the left side-- especially with the red lotus there too. With the background lacking density, there is an inharmonious imbalance between green and warm color. 

The log even dominates the lotus because it has a more yellow color, and yellow draws the eye more than red does (think fire trucks, why they switched to yellow). Thus the log dominates. The log itself is not as attractive as healthy plants. Plants are alive, and life is what makes aquariums beautiful. Logs are dead. Wood and stone are more attractive when they create a shape to support the plants-- not when they themselves dominate the viewer's attention.

A significant gripe I think Amano would have is weakness in the midground. The mid ground is not very developed, and the transition between fore and back is too drastic-- like a lawn infront of a picket fence of grass. In an era where countless Asian aquascapers are making huge leaps in midground design because of experimenation with wood and stone combined with endless searching for new med-small sized plants and moss species . . . it's going to be tough. Along with your mid-ground being undefined, your ludwigia have their "hair lines" exposed too much. The lone echinodorus seems out of place, almost an afterthought without strong midground development around it. Lotus are also most attractive with other plants surrounding it and enhancing it-- something that the riccia is too short to accomplish.

White sand contrasts well with green plants-- that's why sand foregrounds are becoming popular along with the fact that it's a pain to make a carpet. However, because your tank is lacking in green (as I mentioned before), the huge amount of white-grey in the foreground and background overpowers the green too much, and washes out the colors of your plants. 

The path of sand, while an interesting idea and I'm glad you experimented with it, has not worked that well. It has split your tank too evenly, and made it seem too artificial looking. Quite frankly, this sharp line drawn through the middle of the tank may be part of what has prevented you from creating midground lines to assentuate the ludwigia and lotus which ARE planted in positions that could potentially hit good focal points. Though it is odd to have both upper focal points hit-- it would be better if the lotus were smaller.

Speaking of smaller, Amano would not approve of all the large leaved plants. It's a Japanese descrimination, but it comes from the zen-principle of making "small" appear "big." Even the ludwigia's leaves aren't really small. Larger leaved plants make a tank seem small, small leaved plants make a tank seem big. Unfortunately, that is the way it is. Which is why Asian people are so fanatic small and fine-leaved plants (not to mention java ferns with weird shaped leaves that are also more fine). Choose mostly small leaved plants to make it seem "big" with a few large leaved plants to break up uniform texture, but make sure they don't dominate the display. The lotus, echinodorus, and ludwigia, while they do not dominate as much as the log, definitely dominate over the grass in the background. While this might be a descrimination from culture, you have to admit the principle does work, and has worked really well in the past. The only really successful tank I saw last year that didn't implement this idea was senske's discus tank, and that used a black background to make sure the plants and wood wouldn't be washed out-- plus it was huge to start off with, and the excellence was in its excecution.

I hope you evened out the sand in front for the picture, wavy foregrounds are distracting. Sure, flat ones may seem artificial when you think about it, but it's more attractive when you see it.

Erm . . . I feel a bit silly with all this criticism, since such a well designed tank is definitely beyond me-- and I really am humbled (and frustrated) at my inability to work on such a great project myself. At the same time though, I do believe in my "eye" for composition. Also, I won't be a college student with no room and no personal income forever.

There are guys out there that have the same, if not better eye for composition as me, while having access to huge amounts of resources-- it's not just about money, there are things we simply can't get in America without importing. This contest improves with each year, and I think that the level we see will be disgustingly high in both photography and design.

Heck though, who cares about winning? This is going to be a really fun contest, and hopefully we'll all learn and grow from sharing with each other accross the world. I think your tank will have receive a lot of interest Scolley. 

BTW-- I rated this thread a five :wink:


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## scolley

*Two problems solved, same morning*

Man, my apologies for being tardy on responses here... busy. Will get to them though.

Wanted to quickly note that two problems solved themselves, somewhat, this morning.

_First, feeding the bass_. In my attempts to give the loaches a bottom feeder shrimp pellet, little piggie-bass sucked up four in a row. When one did actually make it to the bottom because it was busy swallowing pellet number three, the bass waited until it could choke down the third pellet, and returned to suck the fouth out of the hairgrass before the loaches could get it. Well, I've got to figure out a way to keep the loaches feed, but I just found a good live food substitute for the bass.

_Second, dust algae on the glass_. I happened to be able to take a look at the tank a few times this morning, and found I've made a primo beginner mistake. I've got algae on the glass because the sun beats through a skylight directly on it for almost three hours each morning. I guess that will create a bit of algae. Well, I suppose I can start looking to bump my micros up a bit since that appears to not have been the problem...


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## rook

love the bass.
Been a bass fisherman all my life and am amazed by them.
Once we had a solitary one in a 55 gal. We would buy a dozen minnows(like from the bait shop) once or twice a week. He would polish them off in minutes. We put him in when he was about 5" long. He got to about 14" in the 55. 
I would be leery about putting any other fish in with him because he will kill it.
We caught a large crappie once and put it in the tank. The bass ran it to into the glass till it was dead.
A cheap way to feed the fish is to go outside and find grasshoppers, lizards, crickets, and earthworms. they love to eat them.


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## scolley

*Catch up time...*

Sorry to be side lined with all the AGA hoo-haa. The work is done, entering normal category this year. If the judges rule with strict interpretations under the biotope category (that I'm not in now) then I'll stay out. But if they actually seem to read their guidelines and judge as such, it is my fervent hope to be a major contender in that category next year!

Now to catch up on posts...

*BlueRam * - What do you mean you hacked your tank? I figured you for planning on this, with a killer tank to show for it! My excuse for hacking the tank was (mistakenly) thinking you couldn't enter a tank twice. What's your excuse? I'm looking forward to seeing your entry! roud: 

*greenmiddlefinger * - good luck with your biotope! I've got an "opinion" on your sustainability comment. But you can read that in the text of my entry. Should be amusing.

*CheesyB * - thanks buddy! I'll try the blow away next year. I really wasn't ready this year anyway. I missed the mark farting around wasting weeks plugging holes in the tank. Next year. So, how do you like your couch? Clearly you are a man with excellent taste. Or maybe your wife... roud: 

*Mark * - so where you been hiding? Glad to see you back. Yes, the bass is a hoot! I think building the tank is going to look like a picnic next to keeping that little pig under control. :hihi: 

*Bob * - I like the "hood". Looks nice! roud: But I've gotta ask "Why?" I don't have that problem with the Tek. Is it because you are keeping it higher? Or maybe because in my family room it is typically to our backs. You tell me... but it is bright, no doubt about that!

*Safado * - I really appreciate your advise and kind words. But the truth is, my tank just is not where I planned on it being when I planned on creating a biotope. There as still too many "almost there" qualities about it. No, I'm gonna wait till it is a real contender next year. I've got the biotope category in my gun sights for 2006. Big time. Thanks.

*Hop * - Thanks pal! What I don't know is how can you still afford to pay for web connectivity after your investment in god's-own giant tank!

*Rook * - I appreciate you insight on the bass. But I hate to hear what you said about the crappie! I was planning on putting some Longear Sunfish in when they grow out a bit. So that's really bad news. But you know, I'm having a ball with the LMB (the pig-meister) right now! I knew it was always a question of when, not if, that I'd have to get rid of it. But I was hoping it could coexist with the sunfish for a while. After I had those things shipped halfway across the country, and spend time fattening them up 3 times a day, I'll be really p!ssed if the bass beats them up when I finally introduce them. But hey, I can't say you guys didn't warn me!

*Phil * - Thanks for all your advice! And good luck in the Biotope category. I'll probably see you there next year! 

*greenmiddlefinger * (again!) - Wow! Massive post - impressive commentary. I'm really looking forward to responding to that post! But it's been a tough day, and responding to your significant observations deserves a good reply. I'll get back to you tomorrow. But thanks!


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## BlueRam

It became a little overgrown...

Ludwegia I was trying to pawn off:












scolley said:


> *BlueRam * - What do you mean you hacked your tank? I figured you for planning on this, with a killer tank to show for it! My excuse for hacking the tank was (mistakenly) thinking you couldn't enter a tank twice. What's your excuse? I'm looking forward to seeing your entry! roud:


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## Phil Edwards

scolley said:


> *Phil * - Thanks for all your advice! And good luck in the Biotope category. I'll probably see you there next year!


Thanks Steve, you'll see me there again next year, without a doubt! I'm sorry to see a tank get dropped from the category, but it's probably the right choice. Who knows, if you make a highlight of your limitations you might get a few extra "style points" added to your score for originality. Remember, surprises do happen. 

FYI, I'm working on getting a Native Plant category, separate from Biotopes to go next year. It's had initially positive reception, but there are some bugs that need to be worked out before it's presented to the rest of the folks. I can go out and find species Ammania, Ludwigia, Lindernia, Eliocharis, Lysimachia, Myriophyllum, Polygonum, and a couple other aquarium-suitable species 15 minutes from my house or the University. North Carolina has over 30 species of Ludwigia alone, including the major hobby species. The options are incredibly broad. I see an inaugural 1st place tank in the makings in this thread right here. 

In my very narrow-minded opinion there should be a completely different definition of aquascaping and aquascaping technique when applied to nature-mimicking aquariums. Once that essential difference is delineated then the current guidelines will be much more effective.

To conclude my portion of the hijack/tangent, I feel the need to say something in defense of the judges, past and present. The guidelines are clear and are followed. If you look at the 1st place biotope aquascapes you'll see that with one or two possible examples they're all a bit loose with their interpretation in favor of the artistic. It's not an issue of the judges disregarding the rules, it's an issue of the rules not fitting the category in the best ways possible. 

We could use everyone's input into making the rules fit the game. In fact, I would very much appreciate it if y'all would send an email to me (see below) summarizing your thoughts on changes to the Biotope Aquascape category that would make it more effective. Constructive comments are appreciated more and will be taken with more weight than deconstructive criticism. 

Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

*Calling all AGA contest opinions!*

OK y'all, you heard the man! Let him know what you think! Please!

I know I will! roud: 


Thanks Phil!


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## cprroy73

What I don't understand about biotopes is what about algae and leaf litter, beer cans, boots etc.. If you swim in almost any lake or river you will find algae. Algae on the substrate, and around and on the plants. Maybe not beer cans but you get the point. Amano does very artistic and beautiful tanks. But that is not what you see in nature. What you see in nature is a overload of plants and algae, or neither. In my opinion I think biotopes should look like the real thing. 

Personally I like both, the aquascaped garden type and the biotope.

Steve your tank looks great but i think it is more amano style than biotope.

I think there was an entry in the aga contest that placed and it had algae growing on the branches of the driftwood. It was bright green. If I remember correctly Amano's comments were: I like the moss on the driftwood. HA yeah moss.

Here's the pic:http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2004.cgi?&Scale=258&op=showcase&category=0&vol=1&id=102


I am not saying grow algae at will with your scape but I think biotopes should be seen or experienced and then reproduced rather than just imagined. Not to say that what someone produces will look bad, it may be beautiful, but it may not be accurate. 

All this nonsense is probably just my opinion of the definition of a biotope. I think a biotope is something I can see at the stream, river, or lake on any given day. Whether it is pleasing to the eye or not. Now that said, Of course some biotope aquascapes will look better than others. But that's for the judges to decide. 

I would love to hear what others thinks a biotope should include.

Steve your tank is beautiful no matter what cat it is in.


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## Safado

cprroy73 said:


> Steve your tank looks great but i think it is more amano style than biotope.


I don't think the two are mutually exclusive.



cprroy73 said:


> I would love to hear what others thinks a biotope should include.


Rather than hijack A photo album/journal thread any more, how about we start a new thread instead.

Steve, your tank is incredible. I think you have done what many people have been unable to do, a Biotope that is a pleasure to look at. I am sure when non-planted aquarium people walk into your room they ooh and ahh, and you don't need to explain "the reason it doesn't look good is because it is based on nature."


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## Betowess

scolley said:


> *Bob * - I like the "hood". Looks nice! roud: But I've gotta ask "Why?" I don't have that problem with the Tek. Is it because you are keeping it higher? Or maybe because in my family room it is typically to our backs. You tell me... but it is bright, no doubt about that!


Well, my stand is fairly tall and the tank is a 90... which is a bit taller than a 75. When I sit down, 4x54 parabolic watts really bug my light sensitive blue eyes. Doesn't bother me anymore and now I'll have an easy way to mount some moonlights, I hope. Couldn't figure an easy way for the moon lights otherwise. Good luck with your gem in the competition. roud: bob


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## scolley

*Biotope Definition Thread*



Safado said:


> Rather than hijack A photo album/journal thread any more, how about we start a new thread instead.


Yahoo!

Yes - I'll second that! This is not the place to debate what a Biotope should be. Phil has requested email input. So email him.

And if you feel strongly enough about it to comment, then by all means, start a thread. And if someone does, I'd like to suggest including a link back to these discussions. And post a link to that thread here also please - to let people know where to take the discussion.

I've got my own, long pondered and hopefully well thought out, opinion on the question. I'll be sending it to Phil in an email. And if I find out about a thread to deal with this question, I'll definately post that opinion.

PS - I have _absolutely no problem _ with that discussion arising and having been discussed here. I appreciate the feedback. :icon_bigg My tank highlighted the issue really, so it has been just natural to discuss it here. But clearly there is a lot of thought out there on this topic. It's just natural to let that discussion spin off to a new place. Thanks.


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## scolley

*AGA Rejects*

Taking pics for AGA generated a LOT of reject pictures. And since there seems to be so much interst in these fish, I figued I'd post a few rejects. Apologies on the poor quality on some of the shots. They are "rejects" after all.


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## Cheeseybacon

They look pretty good to me. If those are the regects, then I can't wait to see the "real deal" pictures.


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## Mellyn

What plant is that? It looks so healthy! 

Great pics of the fish. Post the pics you sent to AGA. =D


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## Bayleo

ludwigia repens...
<<we have this in FL, too>>

Check the stormwater pond just beyond the Lake Claire public access area out near the road next time you're collecting.


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## Steven_Chong

I'm falling in love with that gar . . . :fish: 

BTW-- just swithing backgrounds seems to have improved the color-balances a lot! roud: 

Though I hope you try white again some day. :icon_bigg


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## scolley

*Aquascaping reply...*



greenmiddlefinger said:


> It is a beautiful aquarium that surely brings interest and deep pleasure to all that see it, but if we're talking competition . . .


While I always intended this setup for competition, the tank is not. Competition allows you to take stuff out of the tank for pictures, keep unwanted stuff out of the frame, and compensate for glass color with lights and photo correction software. I've gone to the lengths that I have in the whole rimless/frame-less/low-iron/minimal equipment look only because this tank's primary purpose is to be a beautiful thing in our home. A hopefully lovely thing to behold (given the limitations of the the artisan!) Competition is secondary.






greenmiddlefinger said:


> Seeing a log stop with an edge completely parallel to the surface of the water and not hit the surface is a bit disturbing, unnatural. Without any plants attached to it (and this is a difficult shape to attach ferns/moss to) it causes an overwhelming presence of warm color on the left side-- especially with the red lotus there too. With the background lacking density, there is an inharmonious imbalance between green and warm color.


I struggled with this concept too. I wanted the upright piece, visually representing a growing tree. But the top was a problem. What you can't see is that I have a two native Nymphaea, typically used in ponds, positioned with their root balls behind the stump at the top. Their leaves are arranged to hang over the top of the stump shielding the eye from the top, and blossoming so that there are flowers on the top of the stump, beautifully hiding it from a view from above by tall people. (for me it's about eye level!) But hasn't worked that way. The nymphaea have not blossomed, nor put out any new leaves, and I've accidentally broken a few.

As for the color, That's why I'm going heavy red on the right side. To cause the viewer to be drawn from left to right in their viewing - to make the tank seem wider. This trick works standing in front of the tank. You'll have to trust me. It does NOT work in pictures.





greenmiddlefinger said:


> The log itself is not as attractive as healthy plants. Plants are alive, and life is what makes aquariums beautiful. Logs are dead. Wood and stone are more attractive when they create a shape to support the plants-- not when they themselves dominate the viewer's attention.


While I respect that point of view, it is at odds with what I'm trying to achieve. Have you seen a vertical log in a planted tank before? I'll wager not. And we become biased by what we are used to. This particular aquascape is not about plants alone. It is about creating an impression of looking at an underwater view of a cypress forrest. I may put in another log if that's what it takes. You've already said you think it looks nice (thanks!) So since I can apparently achieve that even with the large vertical wood, I am willing to maximize the cypress forrest effect at the expense of possible additional beauty by adding more plants.






greenmiddlefinger said:


> A significant gripe I think Amano would have is weakness in the midground. The mid ground is not very developed, and the transition between fore and back is too drastic-- like a lawn infront of a picket fence of grass. In an era where countless Asian aquascapers are making huge leaps in midground design because of experimenation with wood and stone combined with endless searching for new med-small sized plants and moss species . . . it's going to be tough. Along with your mid-ground being undefined, your ludwigia have their "hair lines" exposed too much. The lone echinodorus seems out of place, almost an afterthought without strong midground development around it. Lotus are also most attractive with other plants surrounding it and enhancing it-- something that the riccia is too short to accomplish.


I agree on the midground. Give it time. This isn't a finished work. As of the last shot you've seen, it's about 5 weeks old! But I agree anyway.
The echinodorus will be replaced. Soon. All three.






greenmiddlefinger said:


> White sand contrasts well with green plants-- that's why sand foregrounds are becoming popular along with the fact that it's a pain to make a carpet. However, because your tank is lacking in green (as I mentioned before), the huge amount of white-grey in the foreground and background overpowers the green too much, and washes out the colors of your plants.
> 
> The path of sand, while an interesting idea and I'm glad you experimented with it, has not worked that well. It has split your tank too evenly, and made it seem too artificial looking. Quite frankly, this sharp line drawn through the middle of the tank may be part of what has prevented you from creating midground lines to assentuate the ludwigia and lotus which ARE planted in positions that could potentially hit good focal points. Though it is odd to have both upper focal points hit.


The sand is not nearly as white as it looks in pictures. As I said before, it's a taupe, and not nearly as bright as the camera portrays. But I agree that the path in the center is not working. Take a look at my layout plan early in the thread to see where it is supposed to be, and the angle it's supposed to have. So I've got to shift it. And it still may not work then. I'm afraid you'll just have to see when it is finished.

But this aquascape will NEVER satisfy the craving for standard focal points. It goes back to the in-person, moving eye thing. I've watched people do it. It seems to work. And everyone gets the impression that the the tank is huge, when it's really only a 75!






greenmiddlefinger said:


> Speaking of smaller, Amano would not approve of all the large leaved plants. It's a Japanese descrimination, but it comes from the zen-principle of making "small" appear "big." Even the ludwigia's leaves aren't really small. Larger leaved plants make a tank seem small, small leaved plants make a tank seem big. Unfortunately, that is the way it is. Which is why Asian people are so fanatic small and fine-leaved plants (not to mention java ferns with weird shaped leaves that are also more fine). Choose mostly small leaved plants to make it seem "big" with a few large leaved plants to break up uniform texture, but make sure they don't dominate the display. The lotus, echinodorus, and ludwigia, while they do not dominate as much as the log, definitely dominate over the grass in the background. While this might be a descrimination from culture, you have to admit the principle does work, and has worked really well in the past. The only really successful tank I saw last year that didn't implement this idea was senske's discus tank, and that used a black background to make sure the plants and wood wouldn't be washed out-- plus it was huge to start off with, and the excellence was in its excecution.


Yes, hip to all that. Did bonsai for years. Which BTW, any tree can be made into a bonsai. The only limitation is artistic. If it's not a tree that is small leaved, or can have its leaf growth stunted, it's gonna be a pretty silly looking tiny tree in a pot. Similar principles apply here.






greenmiddlefinger said:


> Erm . . . I feel a bit silly with all this criticism, since such a well designed tank is definitely beyond me-- and I really am humbled (and frustrated) at my inability to work on such a great project myself. At the same time though, I do believe in my "eye" for composition. Also, I won't be a college student with no room and no personal income forever.


Please don't feel silly. This has been an excellent discourse you've given is on aquascaping principles and technique. Something I'd like to see a lot more of. I think you are right on taget with much of your criticism, it's just that some of what I'm trying to acheive is unconventional and runs counter to conventional wisdom (and it's unfinished!). You criticism is both good IMO, it's also appreciated. roud: 
I can't wait to see what you will do when you have the money and time to do it!






greenmiddlefinger said:


> Erm . . . I feel a bit silly with all this criticism, since such a well designed tank is definitely beyond me-- and I really am humbled (and frustrated) at my inability to work on such a great project myself. At the same time though, I do believe in my "eye" for composition. Also, I won't be a college student with no room and no personal income forever.


Please don't feel silly. This has been an excellent discourse you've given is on aquascaping principles and technique. Something I'd like to see a lot more of. I think you are right on taget with much of your criticism, it's just that some of what I'm trying to acheive is unconventional and runs counter to conventional wisdom (and it's unfinished!). You criticism is both good IMO, and it's also appreciated. roud: Bring on more! It can't hurt.

And I can't wait to see what you will do when you have the money and time to do it!





greenmiddlefinger said:


> Heck though, who cares about winning? This is going to be a really fun contest, and hopefully we'll all learn and grow from sharing with each other accross the world.
> 
> BTW-- I rated this thread a five :wink:


Agreed!

And thanks for the 5! The thread's stars took a pounding the other day. I must have made someone mad. How petty that seems to me. :icon_frow 

Well, thanks for the well considered criticism anyway. It was fun to think about!


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> The thread's stars took a pounding the other day. I must have made someone mad.


What! :icon_roll Let's all see what we can do about that. If this one ain't a 5, then what the he!! is a 5? roud:


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## BlueRam

Scolley:

I was able to see talk Tom Watson from NANFA tuesday at the GSAS meeting:
http://www.nanfa.org/

Would seem like good people to help out in the "North American Biotope" area.


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## Steven_Chong

K, scolley, I'll help some more then:

-I don't think it matters that much between "white" and taupe/beigh/what-have you. Light color is light color foreground when it comes to whether or not it can wash out stuff with too much presence. The black background has prevented this largely though.

-I have seen vertical logs in a number of scapes! And people have used them very well in the past! There was one scape from Taiwan in an ADA contest that used vertical bamboo poles to represent mountains of a Chinese theme, and it was one of the most excellent tanks I had ever seen! There was another that used the poles to represent trees that was similarly stunning! In both of those though, moss and ferns were used to prevent the yellow-colored wood from being over-powering. Moss on the mountains, and java ferns to represent the leaves of the tree. In both of those, the wood was thinner-- the poles were maybe 4" wide. I would suggest getting taller, thinner logs, and using much more of them in your tank, as with just 1 the log seems like an afterthought. Taller would be better since it could reach the surface of the tank. In either case, I think more green plants are needed. A large amount of fontinalis would benefit this tank largely.

-In terms of mid-ground design, can't you use some rocks and medium sized plants? You could expand the range and use of the ludwigia and mow it shorter. Or, don't umbrosum or micranthemoides grow in the areas you are emulating? Those are two plants that would be ideal for your mid-ground design. If you can use a species of hydrocotyle, I think it's presence and high-lighting effect could only help-- especially if you can get it to "creep up" the wood.


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## Mellyn

For vertical and mid-ground focal points you could get cypress knees. They're the roots of the cypress that poke out of the ground. You can get ones that are very vertical and tall, or ones that are shorter and wider (like the peice you have on the right). I think some smaller ones around the middle, near the lotus and ludwigia would tie it together well. 

http://www.grantsterling.com/gallery/9998i003-preview.jpg


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## Steven_Chong

cypress knees!? Oh! That's fascinating!!

So, the piece of wood on the right, is a cypress knee!? And there are lots of variation in how they look and Scolley can get quite a few of these!? Oh-hoh! there's plenty of potential there!

If that's the case, I say ditch the log and use ALL cypress knees! So they'll have comperable texture and color, etc. That'll make it much better since the two different types of wood in the same tank look strange. :icon_redf 

But, if Scolley can create a scape shaped by several cypress kness, some that reach the top, some that stop at a nob like the one in the tank, and some that are smaller, I think we'll get a much improved sense of being at a river bank!! Especially since the knee is darker color, which makes it feel more over-shadowed, like how water would be beneath a tree!

If the knees have a larger presence because there are several of them, that will automatically make this tank completely different from typical gardens, and will set this tank off for something really strong! With lots of knees, the wood would no longer seem like an after thought, but a true foundation. Darn, now I'm getting all excited . . . :icon_redf 
With fontinalis tied to the knees, they could be very attractive and create a very strong and beautiful foundation! I'm liking this too much! :tongue:


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## Betowess

Yeah, I dropped a 5 in there too, this afternoon. I never rate threads, but decided to help out. Man the ludwegia looks fantastic. Love the Gar too.


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## scolley

Thanks for the support and comment folks. No time to really respond at the moment (busy with last second attempts to improve AGA pics), other than to say...

Mellyn - you made my _heart stop_! with that picture! Thanks! Perfect!​
And all the cypress enthusiasm is good, except the problem is getting it. It took me months and months to find someone that understood what I wanted enough to send me this in the photo below... 1 appropriate stump and some knees.










In this shot you can see the stump cut into a half and two quarters.










And in this shot, with the trusty saws-all roud: , I was trying to line the best quarter up to get a "haircut" to make it the proper height.










And with the reflection you get off the side wall, it looks like a whole stump! Cool! (I learned that from looking at what Amano does with some of his rocks.)


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## scolley

*BlueRam * - Thanks for the link. I've got that bookmarked already. There is an amazingly little out there about USA native plants and fauna for aquariums. I've pretty much dredged that site for information I could use, but I never really thought about contacting some of the people directly. Thanks for the suggestion - I'll do that!

*greenmiddlefinger * - I'm surprised you've seen vertical stump (logs). I've seen bamboo, but that is far from the same thing. All I've seen there is little skinny stuff. And I've seen what I would call sticks with semi-vertical inclinations. But I've never seen anyone use a large vertical sump/log as hardscape. This is about as small a cypress stump as you are going to see. It's supposed to be a tree for gosh sakes! If I go skinny to satisfy some preconceived concept of what's proper and what's not, then I have to give up representing a cypress tree. Sorry. The tree stays.

And rocks are out if I'm to stay faithful to that environment. But I do have some hydrocotyle in my grow out tank. But I'm not planning on using it to obscure the "log". Just to add more green. Even still, this is never going to be a "lush" tank, filled with plants like Dutch aquascapes or some of Amano's nature tanks. This will be more about open, or "negative" space.

*Mellyn * - Thanks for that great cypress forest pic. It's perfect. Do you know where I could get more knees? Small ones? The ones in my pictures are the smallest I could find.

Oh, I should mention... my original design called for another knee. It's ready to go now. But the cypress is so buoyant, that I had to put slate on the bottom of all of it, and then pile more slate on top of the slate. A real PITA. So with the 15 lbs or so of slate I had to put in the tank, there was no room for the other knee (plus all the slate to hold it down.)

*greenmiddlefinger * - I like your suggestion about the multiple knees. And agree completely about the different colors in the wood. Preliminary testing indicated they would be the same color once I stripped the bark of them, but that proved to not be the case. :icon_frow 

And I'm afraid that even if I wanted to do the many-knees idea (a good one IMO), it's not going to happen. The huge slate pieces screwed to the bottom of the pieces that are in there would pretty much rip up the aquascape if I tried to move or remove them. No, that wood has to stay where it is until I re-scape the entire tank. Sorry.

I've got to work with the hardscape as it is now. No choice.


----------



## Mellyn

Glad you liked the picture. If I had a boat and chainsaw I could get you some. Lol

For the boyancy, have you tried drilling the center and filling with lead? Might take a bit more work, but it wouldn't be so bulky.

Just be wary when buying cypress knees online. They're often coated with polyurethane for craft purposes (lamps, clocks, ect). Make sure it's safe for a terrarium or aquarium.

This person sells stuff on aquabid and has a catalog on their website.
http://www.amazonmoosey.com/swampwoodknees.htm

Cypress for terrariums
http://www.blackjungle.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?store_code=BJTS&screen=CTGY&category_code=WFWH


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## scolley

Thanks Mellyn. Those are some great links! I'm sorry I didn't have those earlier. And I noticed that the first one did indeed have a picture of a "tree" vertically positioned in a tank in their customer photos section.

I got my cypress here, at Tom's Cypress. They were the only people I could find that would send me a whole stump.

And your idea about filling the wood with something heavy is good too. Sorry I didn't think of that in time. Lead won't do. It's poisonous. But I'm sure some dense substitute could be found. Too late for me thought I'm afraid.

But if anyone else tries that, please tell everyone how it turns out.


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## scolley

*OK, I'm overdue on the humor...*

This fisherman just couldn't help himself on this one... Movie time again. :hihi: 

The wmv file  is about 3 meg, the avi file  is about 5.

Hope you have fun!


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## John P.

That thing's a beast! Mercy!


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## bharada

Great clip! So what's next, Steve? Tarpon? :icon_lol:


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## Buck

Tank Fishin'... That brings back memories Steve... kool vid roud:


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## unirdna

:hihi: 

Didn't you have a SAE or two? They MUST be gone by now!?! In fact, is there anything left besides the gar?


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## Steven_Chong

I saw a loach in the video, so the SAE are probably still around?  

awesome video


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## scolley

Sorry folks... didn't mean to worry people. That bass is aggressive as all get out, but it's kinda stupid. I thinks the loaches are it's buddies, and if they are rooting around for food, he's in there watching. They're pretty much buddies. And there is a similar relationship between the loaches and the SAE. So I suppose to the bass, the SAE is a friend of some friends. So Mr. Piggy leaves the SAE alone too.

But the gar is another story. That fish used to ignore the loaches, and seemed only mildly interested in the SAE.

Well now it seems like that has shifted to being only mildly interested in the loaches, and kinda intrigued by the SAE. I'm gonna have to keep my eye on that guy.

BTW - I don't think the movies had the resolution to show it. But that bass pounced on that curly tailed grub, and had it in his mouth. Mr. Piggy was being pulled by me across the tank!

I'm sorry. I just couldn't help it. :tongue:


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## scolley

*A Gar's Dinner - another movie*

OK, so tonight was [email protected] around with the fish, and making movies of predatory behavior. This next one is of the gar.

If you love all little fishies - DON"T WATCH. It's not grisly or anything, but it is what happens in the natural world when predators eat. Which may be a lot more than some people want to see. So if that's you - DON'T WATCH.

For those of you that are interested, first let me kill the suspense. The final snare of the prey is not in this flick. I missed it. I think I make the gar nervous. If I'm watching, he can't get a hit. But if I turn away... BANG! So this is a video of that same sad story. Sorry.

It is a good view IMO, of the unique hunting style of the gar. It's a real sneak attack. And watch for it's limited ability to turn. It's a primative, stiff little beast, and can barely turn around. So it lives and dies by its drifting stick imitation. Which appears to be enough.

Here's the movie.

Well, hope those of you that watch enjoy it. All I could get was an WMF file, that will work for those of you with Windows of some reasonably recent flavor. All the other "industry standard" format files came out HUGE. I don't know why. But if you must have a 20+ meg MPEG or AVI, pls let me know. Thanks.


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## Safado

INCREDIBLE!!! Steve, once more I am in absolute awe of your tank. I wish I could see it in person. Thanks for bringing it a little closer. I have saved both videos. Thanks!


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## gw11ucb

Wow! awesome video. Your tank is looking great!


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## Buck

I dont know which is better...the actual video or the commentary !

*"Dont mind me , Im just a stick ? "* :hihi: :hihi:


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## TAM

or maybe that was "schtick" ? fun, Fun, FUN.

thanks for the grin.

TAM


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## Mellyn

I could see the bass swimming around in the back - with a huge belly! Great video!


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## scolley

Thanks folks! It was fun to do. And, Yes - that bass had a really big belly!

So that the gar could get something to eat, I had to fill the bass up first. I could have done it with feeders, as in the past. But instead I tried tossing Mr. Piggie (that's its name now) bottom feeder shrimp pellets, which he is now almost taking from my hand! (a la Buck!) It ate them till it was about to explode.

Safado - I wish you could see it too. It is joy for me to have and behold. Between the ADA'esque tank, the cool plumbing, the native fish, and the cypress garden plant and hardscape setup, it's honestly dream come true.

Though with all the tank compliments, I've still got an algae problem. The movies just don't show it. But the glass gets new dust daily. And once a leaf stops growing - POW! A thin film of dust on it too.

So I've still got work to do. But that just takes time to get the ferts and light right. And patience.

Thanks for the kind replies. Glad you enjoyed the flicks!

BTW - Thanks to Buck too! He asked for them.


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## m.lemay

Cool movies !! roud: That's pretty damn cool to have a large mouth bass in a home tank.

Thanks for the entertainmaent. :icon_bigg 

Marcel


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## BSS

Holy encyclopedia, Batman! How can a thread reach 20+ pages with 16K views in just over one month. That's gotta be a recond. Man, you've got quite the fan club going here. I say, "Steve for President, Steve for President" :tongue: .

Sorry, nothing of real value to add, since it's pretty much already been said. But, I hate missing out on such an event, so I had to add something!

Good stuff,
Brian.

P.S. My 5-yr old boy just watched the gar video. He said he really liked the tank. Now, that's some high praise! I wish he'd say that about mine...


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## Steven_Chong

haha, makes a person want to start another account just to vote another 5 on this thread . . . jk, I wouldn't do anything bad like that.

BTW-- the tank looks much better in the video, very nice, though it's difficult from just a video. Luwigia on both sides has made it much stronger, and the riccia's thickening has helped a lot too, neh? g2 love the black background on this one too, and the lily seems so much more impressive in video than in still photos.


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## Buck

> feeder shrimp pellets, which he is now almost taking from my hand!


 Wait another month or so Steve...it gets better. One of my favorite hand fed fish was a 15" Pacu that would tap the glass gently when I was watching TV... he was telling me he wanted another grape ! It would put his nose out of the water, take it from my fingers very gently then he would sit back and peel it by rolling it around in his mouth. He would spit out a perfect looking skin, still cant figure out how he did it...LOL

Predatory type fish are very smart and can be trained, they know how to get what they want. LM Bass are in the top 3 of my fav's for intelligence and friendship. 

My list...
Pacu being #1 (gentle giants)
Oscar's #2 (semi-gentle )
Bass #3 (can be temperamental)
*** Knifefish (Clowns and Tigers)-- downright nasty fish, they live to kill , but can be trained to be handfed.

Steve you are in for a real treat with your Bass. You aint tried hand feeding a minnow yet ? roud:


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## scolley

*If you don't like this thread, then please read...*



Buck said:


> Steve you are in for a real treat with your Bass. You ain't tried hand feeding a minnow yet ? roud:


No Buck I haven't. But last nite I _dreamed _ that I was doing that for the gar! I remember quite distinctly that I was concerned that my fingers might get the same experience that I was to ready to provide for the minnow! :icon_frow

I know there is another thread here where I should post that, but it leads me to another topic...



*Time for a Level Set*
BSS hit on the popularity of this thread earlier, even if with a bit of _excess enthusiasm_. I didn't even plan on starting this thread. It was prompting by mods that made me say "OK, time to move to a new thread."

And I wasn't even planning on creating a thread to talk about this tank until it was mature anyway. I believe my first post alludes to that. But a large number of people have indicated an interest in my progress, both in posts and PMs, so I felt compelled to keep you posted. Thank you for the support! This is a wonderful community! And as soon as I get beyond my own silly journey, I hope to provide payback through what I have learned.

But this thread has clearly made some people unhappy. Maybe it is the live feeding. Maybe it is my personality expressing itself in my posts. Maybe it is being too much talk, and not enough pictures. Who's to say?

What I do know for certain, is that after so many people giving this 5 stars, enough of you are unhappy enough to have voted to drive that down to 3 stars earlier this week. :icon_frow That's a lot of negative votes!

FWIW, on one hand I have a full and happy life. If this forum disappears tomorrow, that will continue. But on the other hand, such rejection hurts. Especially when not one negative voter among you has had the courage to make a negative post, or even send a PM to indicate what prompts such unhappiness.

So, if you were trying to get a little dig in -BINGO! You got it! I'm stung. I'm not superman. It hurts. I hope you are happy.

On the other hand, I appreciate (really!) the support I have received from so many of you, and will continue to try to share both the ups and downs of this wacky planted tank learning experience, and those tidbits of knowledge and insight I pick up all the way! roud: 

The warmest of thanks!


----------



## conduct

Scolly-
Great video of the Large Mouth tring to take out the twister.. now that is some aggression.. *So young and so deadly*


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## Safado

scolley said:


> What I do know for certain, is that after so many people giving this 5 stars, enough of you are unhappy enough to have voted to drive that down to 3 stars earlier this week. :icon_frow That's a lot of negative votes!


Steve, 
as I type this this thread is at 4.48 stars with 21 votes. When it dropped to 3 stars less than 10 people had voted. I for one did not know how to vote until I saw your stars go down. I thought the mods selected the level, and since I didn't think the mods would drop the level, I figured I had better figure out how it is done. I proudly voted a five.

Now on to the math....I know you are all excited...

21 votes with an average of 4.48/5. So out of a possible of 105 Stars, 94 were given, or rather 11 were not given. One way to look at it is just over half of the voters think the tank is a 4 star tank, which I would be proud of. Since the stars dropped so quickly to 3 earlier in the week, we can assume there was at least one person voting a one star. I would think it more likely there are two people, who voted 1, and three people, who voted four.

Don't be discouraged by two people not thinking your tank is great. It is obvious they don't see the purpose of the stars, the purpose of voting, nor does it appear they understand the purpose of this board. Think of it this way,16 out of 19 legitimate voters think your tank is beyond awesome, and three think it is awesome. The other two were trying to prove a point, which should have been expressed differently, or better yet not at all.


----------



## conduct

I was wondering if I might get a little information on the Fert set up of your tank... Pump, Container, ect.. I seen them hanging in one of your pictures.
Thanks
Curtis


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## scolley

Safado - sorry about that diatribe. I just had to vent. I have no idea where you got that vote count info from. I didn't know it was available. But as for the 3 star thing, it happened quick. When ever 4 happened, I missed it. So it was appeared to be in response to something. And it doesn't seem to be a number of four. It happens so quick I assume it was a limited number of rapid fire 1's.

Please don't get me wrong. IMO everyone has got the right to vote, and should. And I am not hung up on having a great thread. I should be taking the time to document what I learned about tank building instead.

But to take a very popular thing and deliberately pound it has got to be a personal dig by someone. A PM would have been nice, but probably would have taken a bit more courage, and certainly not provided the same satisfaction.

Sorry I vented folks. I'll not darken this tread with the topic further! :wink:


----------



## scolley

conduct said:


> I was wondering if I might get a little information on the Fert set up of your tank... Pump, Container, ect.. I seen them hanging in one of your pictures.
> Thanks
> Curtis


I don't have the dosers set up yet. Or rather, I'm not using them. I want to get my fert schedule stable before I start auto-dosing. And I'll provide full details then.

But in a nutshell, I've got two different peristaltic pumps, one real low flow one for micros, and a moderate flow one for macros. The pumps are on little electronic timers. Most of my electronics are on X10 timers, so I can programmatically schedule when everything turns on and off. But these are on little stand alone timers because in unusual electronic conditions, like surges from thunder storms, X10 units can turn on by themselves. And that would be disastrous in a dosing pump.

I've got Kent hanging auto-dosing jugs to hold the ferts, with the micro tubing coming out of that going into a peristaltic pump. Then micro airline tubing coming out of the pump connects to a port in inserted into the CO2 diffuser. But I got some cheap plastic micro-airline valves (DRs F&S I believe) and cemented those to holes drilled into the diffuser. I connect the airlines to that, so I can shut off the valve and remove the lines if necessary.

The peristaltic pumps overcome the pressure of inserting liquids into that moderately pressurized diffuser.

The jugs have water in them, and pump 1 minute a day right now. That's just so I can observe the rates that the pumps dose, while I wait for my fert schedule to stabilize. Then I'll get it all set up, and let you know.


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## John P.

I just saw another gallery  with gars in an aquarium that you might find interesting.


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## unirdna

John P. said:


> I just saw another gallery  with gars in an aquarium that you might find interesting.



Red-tail and shovel-nose cats in a planted tank?


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## scolley

That's pretty cool! Thanks JohnP! Now I'm gonna have to go grab my fish book to find out what kind of gar that was. But there are two broad groups, and I believe this is in the other one (the one with Alligator and Florida gar), but I'm not sure. They tend to be stockier, bigger, and with that 'gator type bulb on the end of their snout.

But forget the gar... did you see the picture of that fish that guy caught??? What that the heck was that?!?! It must have weighed 600 lbs. That could pull a 20" boat!

Thanks for the link.


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## Phil Edwards

Sorry Steve :icon_redf ,

I just voted a one star to see if it would bring it down temporarily as a joke (prior to reading the 3 star posts) and now I can't change it back. It was 5 stars before. :icon_redf :icon_redf :icon_redf This is a 6 star thread in my book. roud:


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## scolley

Phil,

It takes a big man to say that. My hat's off to you for saying so! Publicly even. roud: 

No harm, no foul my friend! Thanks.


----------



## Buck

Phil said:


> Sorry Steve , :icon_redf
> 
> I just voted a one star to see if it would bring it down temporarily as a joke (prior to reading the 3 star posts) and now I can't change it back. It was 5 stars before.











Huh ? Cmon Phil, this aint your first time around the block in a forum...LOL :tongue: 

Hey Steve I look at it this way...This deed from Phil is the best rating you could recieve, it is a sign that all your hard work and planning is paying off because I think ya got him nervous... 
Lets look at the evidence and see if we can find motive..._first_ Phil suggests not to enter your tank in the biotope class _and now this_? Hmmmm, Guilty as Charged I say of *Tank Rating Sabotage In the First Degree*... 
Steve you know you have done well when you have one of the big boyz of the hobby quakin' like a birch on a breezy day...and he is at the top of the game :icon_bigg


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## Phil Edwards

Buck said:


> Huh ? Cmon Phil, this aint your first time around the block in a forum...LOL :tongue:


Nope, but it's my first time ever voting on a thread. I should have known it would happen....just my luck.


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## scolley

Thanks folks. As I said before, while I appreciate all the support (as always, not kidding - you guys are great!), I'm thru with this topic. While it did p*ss me off, I vented (sorry) and now I'd very much like to resume what I hope will be a fun thread.

That's why we are doing this, right? For the fun? I know I am... I do something entirely different to pay the bills! It is _not _ fun.This is supposed to be.

*TANK UPDATE*
I ripped up a few pounds of Riccia today. And gosh knows how many leaves off the surface of my tank. And ripped out that stinking black background. It looks good in pictures, but it destroys that "cube of water" illusion that I'm so fond of.

PJAN was good enough to smack my hand in a PM, so he's got me convinced to ease off on the light, and stay off the micros to fix that algae problem. So I will.

Mr. Piggie and The Gar are full. God help 'em, that'll last about a day. :hihi: 

And I've gotten discouraged at the growth rate of the longear sunfish I have in my grow out tank. So I've ordered some 3" pumpkinseeds. And _I know Buck, I can get them right here_, but I can't necessarily get them at the exact size I need them. 1 and 1/2 inches will be food for Mr. Piggie. 5" will be too much poop for the tank until it settles. So ordering was a way to control the size.

I hope they eat snails. Because I figure the zebras have about another 60 days before I've got to save them with the net.

It's getting sporty in there!


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## Veneer

I don't know whether you've seen these before; regardless, many of the images therein are quite beautiful:

Juvenile/YOY Gar ID

The Gar Key v2.0 (I found the shot of two _L. osseus_ amongst sunfish particularly notable.)


----------



## scolley

Veneer - those are great shots! Yeah, someone on else saw this thread and was kind enough to PM about that board. I've not had the chance to spend a lot of time there, but it is really cool! And the shots _are _ great.

I agree. Thanks.

And BTW, though it claims it is hard to tell the difference in juveniles, looking at those pics, I'm certain this is a longnose.

Thanks for the great link. Another place for me to go waste away countless hours!


----------



## unirdna

Those were great gar photos!! And, I just realized how happy I am that the plantedtank does not have a black backdrop. How gloomy.

Ripped off the blue background, Steve? I assumed it was painted on. But, as I wrote that last sentence, I realized that there is NO way you would spraypaint that tank (right?). So, how did you get it to look so nice?


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## shuks

Sorry scolly, I don't like your aquascape. Your plants look very nice and healthy, but the whole seen looks to artificial. (maybe thats what your goin for?) I like a more natural looking aquascape. Yours looks more like a garden in someones back yard rather than a natural enviorment that you would find in the wild. I think it's the plant layout; It looks a little to "planned" out. You can tell someone planted everything really carefully, in the exact positions. I think it would help if you made thing look more natural. 

Don't take it personaly, it's just a newbies opinion.


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## scolley

Ted - what blue background are you talking about? Quite a few posts ago I posted some AGA reject photos with what should have been a black background. If that looks blue to other people, I shudder to think what my AGA submissions look like!

Shuks - No problem. It is planned. I suppose you have hit on the big dilemma. Letting nature take over completely to plan a layout usually leaves a result that IMO a little human intervention could improve. Now anyone that has seen an Ansel Adams photograph knows thats not always the case. In fact, that's why those photographs are so prized - such perfection, naturally occurring, is rare.

So yup, I want it look better than your "average" natural layout, while still looking like it "might" have happened. That's the plan anyway. And if I've achieved that, and if you still don't like it. Well, different strokes... Thanks for posting your thoughts!


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> Ted - what blue background are you talking about? If that looks blue to other people, I shudder to think what my AGA submissions look like!


And I shudder at how I never proof my posts :icon_redf . Yes, I meant black.


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## scolley

Ted - Thanks. I was picturing crimson fish with lavender water, and gosh knows what else going on for color if that black was blue! 

The background was just black foam core poster-board. Like you might use for a kids science project. IMO it helps contrast for photos, but it looks much better in person with out it. And while I don't really want to go into the whole "path in the middle" topic at the moment, the path looks much more severe with that black background.

Shuks - I've been thinking, and it's possible that we are attracted to the same thing, and I've just done a poor job of implementing it. I'd like to strike a compromise between a Dutch aquascape, and an Amano "natural" aquascape. To me, one seems too contrived, the other a bit too... well, _natural _ I suppose. I suppose it gets back to the Ansel Adams thing, nature can look great on it's own, but IMO it usually can look better with a bit of help. I suppose the challenge is providing the help without it being obvious (that could be where I am going wrong now), and deciding where to draw the line - when to stop "improving" and let nature do its thing.

I've got lot to learn. And the tank has a lot of growing to do. Please keep in mind, I'm drawing comments now as if this is a finished product, when I only just started. Maybe you'll like it more later. Give it time.


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## Steven_Chong

The issue with "nature-style" aquascaping, is not about whether or not we want a natural look-- it's about how do we get it? What specifically do we do to make it seem natural?

At this point in the hobby, ALL "nature-style" tanks are highly planned and controlled with human intervention. Heck, the iwagumi branch of "nature-style" has been taken over by the highly-stylized art of rock gardening that only had its roots hundreds of years ago in imitating nature. We use the "golden sect" to place alot of things, and we say that the golden sect is based on nature. The golen sect is actually a ratio drawn from a series of numbers called "febonicci" numbers, and the ideas were originally drawn up with prediction of rabbit population growth.  even though it results in balanced appearence, the fact is that it is highly controlled and rigid.

So what defines a "nature style" aquarium? Some features in the past included:

-emphasis on small plants, especially foreground ones
-emphasis on wood and stones
-plants are not grouped, but instead mixed
-having to do with Amano

the definitions seem to be falling apart. dutch style tanks are adopting small plants more and more, Amano has abandoned "carpets" to a large degree-- and a lot of his more recent tanks seem almost dutch to me in that all the plants in the background are rigidly grouped! More over, we have seen very successful "nature-style" aquariums with only 1 or 2 species! You can't "mix" the plants well if you only have 1 type, and it is undeniable that in nature you'll often only find 1 plant!

So when I read something like:



> Yours looks more like a garden in someones back yard rather than a natural enviorment that you would find in the wild. I think it's the plant layout; It looks a little to "planned" out. You can tell someone planted everything really carefully, in the exact positions. I think it would help if you made thing look more natural.


I think, WHAT THE HECK DOES THAT MEAN!??? no offense such, just using your post to illustrate. 

what exactly does "make things look more natural" *mean!??* It looks too planned out!? ALL OF AMANO'S TANKS ARE EXTREMELY PLANNED OUT!! 

Plus, with the growing biotope craze, I think "nature-aquaria" is having an even greater identity crisis since biotopes are completely different looking, and really much truer to real streams and ponds and lakes.


It's unlikely you'll find a "nature-style" lay out in a stream, because a lot of "nature-style" is derived from how whole landscapes look instead of how streams and biotopes look. In any case, we're at square one-- what identifies "nature-style"?

The only thing that really differentiates Amano's newest style from Dutch tanks is complex design of the fore and mid grounds. Is that what "nature aquaria" is? Just the design of natural-looking fore and mid grounds? :icon_conf 

Well, It's all becoming more complicated as people experiment more and more. :icon_bigg


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## shuks

Some people like "dutch" style tanks, others like "amano" style tanks. To tell you the truth, there two diffrent names for the same thing. The only diffrence betweyne the two, is the plants being arranged diffrently. When it comes down to it, there both just boxes of glass filled with water and plants. I think people overanalize things, and catagorize tanks to much. I know that the "natural" looking tanks are planned just as carefully as the un-natural looking ones...So, I can't really say what makes a tank look un-natural, it just does. 

I agree with you scolly, I like to find a finely tuned ballance betweyne the "natural" and the obviously "planned" look, but that is just my oppinion. It don't really matter how the hell anyone aquascapes their tank, as long as their happie with it. I like the idea behined your tank scolly, and if you like it then don't change a thing. When I first planted my 75 G really carefuly I didn't like it. I uprooted all the plants to trim them, and I planted them at random; just so they would grow. After a week or so I started to love it. Just thought I'd give you my 2 cents.


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## aquaverde

I think both Dutch and nature aquarium styles are trying to create an imitation of a terrestrial look. Sure, the Dutch style is highly contrived, and the nature aquarium style looks more like it could have possibly grown that way naturally. It's more like the difference between French and English gardens than anything that really imitates an actual biotope.

The "biotopes" I've seen (real waterways, not aquaria) resemble kitsch to me more than something I'd really enjoy looking at- what, with the litter, algae, etc. I'm talking mid-Atlantic fresh water, specifically.


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## scolley

*no more SAE*

Well, I don't mean to ignore the Dutch vs. Nature vs. Biotope discussion. You are welcome to hash it out here a bit. roud: But if there is REAL interest in the topic, it could be worth a thread. I know I've got an opinion I'd contribute...

Wanted to post, the SAE is dead. :icon_frow I'm bummed. I was counting on removing it soon. But I waited too long apparently. I found it on the floor. I can only assume it leapt out of the tank last night, pursued by a gar. I only assume that because I've never had an SAE jump before.

They aren't jumpers are they? Amanos sure. This tank, without a rim, is almost like an open door for Amanos, just begging them to leave.

So now between Mr. Piggie and The Gar, I've got no algae cleaners to speak of. I suppose the zebra loaches will do a bit, but they will remain for the snails, until I can get some sufficiently sized sunfish to take that on.

I'm out in new territory for me. No real algae cleaners. Interesting place to be when you are trying to get your hands around algae. I kinda expected to find myself in this spot, but now there's no getting around it. I better stop growing algae.


----------



## aquaverde

SAEs are jumpers, even without A Really Good Reason.

If you have snails, then you aren't entirely without algae eaters. Don't expect to see a noticeable difference in algae due to a singe SAE. They are way overbilled, IMO, as to their effectiveness. That goes double once they reach about a year in age.

I think the biggest algae issue with a tank like this is the fact that there's going to be a lot of ammonia to process due to the predators. Don't know how much of an issue, but it is probably significant.


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## scolley

Thanks James. I feel a bit less guilty now anyway. :icon_bigg And it was about 1 & 1/2 years old anyway...

I can't really say I have snails. I suppose I have _traces _ of snails. Every once in a while you'll see one (not MTS BTW, which would be burrowing), or an empty shell. The zebra loaches keep them pretty much cleaned out. But every week or so you can spot one. So it's not many - I doubt I've got much algae eating going on from them.

And the algae from the ammonia I'm hoping will be not until the predators get a bit bigger. timr gave me some Praecox Rainbows for my 20g (thanks timr!) and the bass is about the body mass of two of them, the gar maybe 1, once you discount for the long nose. So at the moment it's like I've got maybe three rainbows, and two not so big loaches. Not too bad for a moderately planted 75g.

But that will change when the predators get bigger. And when I get some sunfish in there.


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## aquaverde

scolley said:


> I suppose I have _traces _ of snails.


LOL, that's funny. I should have realized you won't be keeping any number in that tank with the loaches.

I read a post by someone on the board stating kribensis were good snailers, which I'd never heard before. Now I know it by experience. My male krib is in my 20 all by his lonesome self, and except for the MTS, there is only shells left of the snails in that tank. Traces of snails, indeed. :icon_bigg


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## PJAN

scolley said:


> Wanted to post, the SAE is dead. :icon_frow I'm bummed. I was counting on removing it soon. But I waited too long apparently. I found it on the floor. I can only assume it leapt out of the tank last night, pursued by a gar. I only assume that because I've never had an SAE jump before.
> 
> They aren't jumpers are they? Amanos sure. This tank, without a rim, is almost like an open door for Amanos, just begging them to leave.


In my open tank I had the experience that SAE would jump if they are scared by something. Once I put the light on in the middle of the night...and one jumped out.
I think the bass/gar took a hit on the SAE and scared him to death.

I also have dozen Amano-shrimps and they are not climbing out or so.
But I have only small fishes ( ehh an 3 SAE's) and I can tell the Amano's are totally relaxed. That was quite different when had Angle's swimming. 
In those times the Amano's were most of the time hiding and trying to migrate out of the tank...

What would you do if a Tyrannosaurus Rex is trying to enter your living room?

Gr. PJAN


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## aquaverde

PJAN said:


> In my open tank I had the experience that SAE would jump if they are scared by something.


I had the same idea, but I lost a couple out of my 30g where there was nothing there to really scare them. I wasn't able to find a reasonable explanation. They may have been chasing each other and jumped, as chases happened pretty regularly. Of course, if the lights coming on in the AM was enough to do it, then there's no way to avoid this without covering the tank completely.


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## Kyle

I haven't lost any of my SAE but they do seem to bug out quite a bit.


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## scolley

I've had this, my only, SAE for about 1.5 yrs. It was pretty calm - nothing like my CAE's that definately need tranquilizers.

The Gar doesn't chase anything. But it will strike, swinging it's beak. I'll wager that's what happened. And the SAE just jumped. Instinct - with unfortunate consequences.


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## scolley

*Funky Algae?*

Anybody know what the heck that is on the tubers of the banana plant? I don't think it was there 2 days ago when I cleaned the tank. If it is algae, it's the only place I have it, and it grows fast! I guess it's something like BGA, but it's pure white, so I'm not sure...










It has not spread to the adjacent riccia or hairgrass. Ideas on treatment?

Thanks.


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## Mellyn

It looks like a fungus to me. Maybe you could hit it with hydrogen peroxide? Good luck


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## aquaverde

It's fungus. Not good news. The bulb on my lace plant fungused and shortly thereafter was history. It can show up on some new driftwood as well.


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## scolley

Thanks Mellyn - James.

So is my tank at risk, indicating that I need to remove the plant? Or is the peroxide treatment a reasonable and sufficient precaution? (1 part 3% peroxide to 9 parts water, as a dip, for a minute or so I assume)

Or can I wait this out because it will go away, as some posts seem to indicate? Though I've seen none about it on a plant - just driftwood and plastic.

James - not good news for what? The plant  or the tank? :icon_eek:


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## Mellyn

I did a search on the site for fungus. Somepeople say to leave it alone and it will go away on it's own. Others say to take it out and wash it with a mild bleach solution or to clean all the fungus off.

Fungus could mean that your banana plant is starting to rot, has started to rot or is having some other issue that has allowed the fungus to colonize there.


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## aquaverde

The leave-it-alone advice usually applies to driftwood. I think Mellyn's right- you have rotten bananas. Stop watching cheap movies. :icon_roll Actually, you might be able to remove the bananas and the plant will be OK. No risk to the tank. That stuff is always around. Ever miss a fish and a day later, there it is with this stuff around the body?


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## scolley

Yeah, thanks. I did the same search and saw pretty much the same broad range of suggestions. This particular plant has not grown as vigorously as the the others, but it has grown, and has put out two new leaf shoot in the last week. These things seem to have between 3 and 8 leaves, so that's a good number. So I'm drawing a few conclusions:

1) From other posts, it doesn't appear to be something that threatens the tank, and that I'm not compelled to do anything about it.
2) The plant seems otherwise healthy, even entering into a new growth period. Possibly just getting over being transplanted.
3) The fungus doesn't seem to attack health living things, so the plant might actually recover.

So I'm just going to wait and watch for now. I've got a photo to compare it to, and watch for spreading. After that, depending on rate of spread, if it spreads, I'll first do mechanical removal. If that doesn't work, I'll try snipping a banana or two. And based on those results, I'll try the dip before resorting to just removing the plant.

But for now, I'm just going to observe. Thanks for the help! :wink: 

I do find it an interesting coincidence that I first notice this about 36 hours after my SAE jumped the tank. I could have had a problem for a while, but the SAE was nibbling on the evidence. 

I eat mushrooms - maybe SAE's eat fungus too.


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## baj

Funny about the SAE jumping out, similar thing happened to me yesterday but with my wood shrimp. I had 2 in a tank.... they must have had an argument or something and one decided to leave and get a drink. Found the bugger 15feet away from tank.....near my wine rack. Didnt make it.


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## Snailpoo

scolley said:


> I do find it an interesting coincidence that I first notice this about 36 hours after my SAE jumped the tank. I could have had a problem for a while, but the SAE was nibbling on the evidence.
> 
> I eat mushrooms - maybe SAE's eat fungus too.


So the cure for fungus is to add balsamic vinigrette, fresh ground pepper, and basil?



Or maybe the fungus is one of the illegal ones, and the SAE went on a trip?


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## Buck

Hey Steve...leave the plant and pull the fungus, you may be surprised to find (block your ears fish lovers) ... a regirgitated piece or whole feeder fish in it. I used to get those fungus balls alot when I kept large fish. It does not take very long at all to get a fungus mass from dead feeders. 
It can be as small as a fin causing it and I have also seen it happen from the mulm only of large fish.
That photo is a blast from the past... :icon_frow


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## scolley

Thanks Buck! I hope that's it! I'll clean it up good at tank cleaning time tomorrow - a little gravel vac and all that.

It would explain the mystery though. The plant has been a slow grower among the banana plants. But it appears healthy - growing well, with new leaves.

Maybe that's it though. That bass will defiantly eat until it looks like it is going to explode. I mean it looks painful to be so bloated. So it doesn't surprise me at all to think that it would puke...

Hey! I just thought about something...



Day before yesterday, same morning as I found the dead SAE, I tossed a brick of frozen bloodworms in for the loachs. Well, Mr. Piggie darted out from some hiding spot, and sucked it up before it had sunk 2 inches. I couldn't believe my eyes, given that I had just pulled it from the freezer. He paused for about a 3 count then - Ptweuuw! Out it came.

But it looked at the sinking meal for another 2-3 seconds, then swallowed it again ad slowly swam away.

It got me thinking... swallowing an ice cube, about 1/4 your body mass, has got to be bad news if you are cold blooded. Talk about getting a headache from eating ice cream!

Maybe his body told him to unload. And now I have fungus. Go figure.  



Thanks for the tip Buck!


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## Betowess

Steve, I had a fungus attack my fav plant, a red tiger lotus. Didn't look like your fungus, but rotted all the stems at the base by the bulb, and it was toast. I replanted the bulb a foot away, and a few months later it re-sprouted, albeit a bit more slowly the second time. Its starting to really take off, finally.

Also, I lost a couple of SAE's to jumping out of the tank. My LFS guy says the most dangerous time is the first 24 hours. But you're probably right about it jumping because of fright. Anyhow, my 3 big SAEs seem quite content being the biggest sharks in my tank. They certainly eat more flake and frozen food than algae. I want to find them a new home, but they are amazingly hard to catch in a fully planted tank. I found that out when I re-started this 90. bob


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## Laith

Betowess said:


> ...Anyhow, my 3 big SAEs seem quite content being the biggest sharks in my tank. They certainly eat more flake and frozen food than algae. I want to find them a new home, but they are amazingly hard to catch in a fully planted tank. I found that out when I re-started this 90. bob


Exactly the reason I no longer use SAEs! roud:


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## scolley

Laith said:


> Exactly the reason I no longer use SAEs! roud:


I'm starting to see the light on that! The reason why I had only 1 SAE in the tank, is because that's all I had available to be moved from my 20g. Though I had _tried _ to have three SAE's in the 20.

I have to say _tried _ because I had three juveniles, as sold by an oh-so-fancy LFS around here. But 2 grew up to be CAEs! I've tried to get rid of them on many occasions. They eat all my tender plants! But there is absolutely no catching those things in a planted tank.

I think I'm about done with that whole variety.


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## aquaverde

I have one SAE left, down from a high of 9. This one missed the ride to the LFS because he managed to hide in my heavily-overgrown 30g and I wasn't sure how many I had left.

I'm definitely done with them. They get too large and are not so good at algae eating IME. I would try a Garra spp. if I ever saw one for sale at a reasonable price. Right now, my favorite algae-eating fish is Chaetostoma spp. (rubber-____ plec).


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## lumpyfunk

Scolly, Wow I get busy for a couple of weeks and it takes me another week to catch up on your thread!!

Just a couple of things, I love your scape roud: And I do agree with some who say it looks a little too well ordered ie too nice looking to be natural. But that is what the human race does we change our surrondings to our likeing.

I think that you are a boundry spanner balancing between hobbiest and competitor, you cant please everybody, as you well know but it appears that you have pleased the most important person. . .you :icon_bigg


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## scolley

Thanks lump! I'm not too worried about being constrained to conventional thinking. Stand configuration, tank, plumbing, and aquascape all bear witness to my lack of any compulsion to follow the crowd - not if something different seems to make sense. But it does tend to place one in the cross-hairs with annoying frequency. (BTW - I've spent a lot of time in Minneapolis! roud: Still trying to lose all the pounds I picked up eating too often on Nicollette Mall!)

Thanks though. Hopefully the tank will get better with time.

But right now, I've got my hands full with a major algae battle. I'll win the war, but there's a bit of fighting to do yet.

*Fungus Update*
Right now, it is the "fungus battle". And the fungus is spreading to adjacent plants. And this morning it had lots of little bubbles in it. The banana plants must have pores on the bananas, because they pearl out of them. So I'm assuming CO2 passes through them at night, and it go caught in the fungus.

Both the spread to riccia and dwarf hairgrass, and the bubbles seem to indicate that the banana plant is not a sick plant, but rather something like Buck suggested - fungus from Mr. Piggie puke is spreading. I'll clean it out tonight and see if it returns.


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## kzr750r1

scolley said:


> Well, I don't mean to ignore the Dutch vs. Nature vs. Biotope discussion. You are welcome to hash it out here a bit. roud: But if there is REAL interest in the topic, it could be worth a thread. I know I've got an opinion I'd contribute...


I look at it this way. Central Park in Manhatten was man made. Now over the years nature has been allowed to take it's course. There are of course still tree trimmings, grass to cut and flowers to plant.

I'm with you Steve nature always looks better with a little intervention. Lucky mistakes will happen and your plan will morf over time but in all your making an impression on alot of new keepers out there with your enthusiasum. Keep up the good work. roud:

Never let a hater get under your skin... I know your done with the rant but if they dont like carnivorus fish that's their problem , right. To each his own... :icon_roll


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## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> I'm with you Steve nature always looks better with a little intervention. Lucky mistakes will happen and your plan will morf over time but in all your making an impression on alot of new keepers out there with your enthusiasum. Keep up the good work. roud:


Sounds a little like the blind leading the blind to me! :hihi: But I appreciate the thought. :icon_bigg 



I probably shouldn't say this, someone is bound to think this as excessive, but I got a 2nd Eheim 2026 today. I was worried about the circulation in the tank, and also that the one 2026 is a major single point of failure. With everything in-line, if the filter goes, everything goes. And Drs. F&S are having that great sale...

So I installed it tonight. Man! No circulation problems now. I got some swaying giant hairgrass to be sure! So if the plants aren't growing fast enough, I can at least rule out poor circulation.

Well, another day, another planted tank adventure.


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## kzr750r1

scolley said:


> Sounds a little like the blind leading the blind to me! :hihi: But I appreciate the thought. :icon_bigg


Nature will supprise you and I think you get my point. :wink: 




scolley said:


> I probably shouldn't say this, someone is bound to think this as excessive, but I got a 2nd Eheim 2026 today. I was worried about the circulation in the tank, and also that the one 2026 is a major single point of failure. With everything in-line, if the filter goes, everything goes. And Drs. F&S are having that great sale...
> 
> So I installed it tonight. Man! No circulation problems now. I got some swaying giant hairgrass to be sure! So if the plants aren't growing fast enough, I can at least rule out poor circulation.


Not excessive, SMART! I'm glad your taking them up on that deal! Now you have a chance to split some of those restriction points between two pumps and go for the bulk head distribution...Nice Nice Nice


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## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> Nature will surprise you and I think you get my point.


I don't just get it, I'm in passionate, violent agreement with you. roud: I'm just movin' on to new subjects...



kzr750r1 said:


> I'm glad your taking them up on that deal! Now you have a chance to split some of those restriction points between two pumps and go for the bulk head distribution...Nice Nice Nice


If anyone hasn't checked that deal out, and wants an excellent canister, you should check out the Eheim Pro II 2026 sale before they're gone... includes hoses, in/out flows, and filter pads. You still have to buy the EHFISUBSTRAT and/or EHFIMECH though...

As for the restriction points, it seems to be just a question of pressure... I'm not even bothering to even measure the flow. One look says the answer to any such question is "_It's enough_".


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## scolley

*OK, I'm a geek and couldn't help myself...*

I confess. I measured.

While doing maintenance, it was just too tempting to leave the filters on while doing the water change. When the water was low, it was a no brainer to just stick a 2 quart bucket under a lily pipe and watch the seconds pass as it filled.

Constriction is clearly pulling the speed down, but combined it is clearly more than adequate. Together the two filters provide about 350 gph. But each is rated for 250, so constriction and back pressure from all the in-line hoo-ha is coming into play.

But IMO, that should be enough. Just from eyeball observation, it's a big improvement.


----------



## scolley

Gosh, I'm triple posting here. One followed by the other... I suppose I should be ashamed if it wasn't clear that so many people are following the thread, so here goes...


_*My Battle with Algae*_
I'm engaged in major warfare here. So the battle is being fought on a number of fronts:

1) *CO2 PPM* - I've upped it to between 30 and 40 ppm. I've found though a ridiculous amount of pH testing that my calculations on the kH boost Arm & Hammer provides is somehow faulty. In prior weeks I'd do my 50% water change, test the pH, and due to the very soft water I have, calculate an amount of A&H I needed. But I never tested again until AFTER the next water change, so I wasn't bothering to conform that my dosing worked.

Well, I've determined this week that it was underdosing. I'm using standard formula's found here, and they are leaving my kH under the target (1 dkH requires 0.0189tsp A&H/gal). I'm fully capable of 9th grade algebra, so I assume that's not the problem. I'll figure out why later. Right now, I'm retesting after dosimg until I confirm that the kH is where I need it to be.

2) *Light Consistency* - I've always done siestas. But today I changed my timers to eliminate that. I'll miss the viewing of the tank at night. But I don't want to risk anything. I want this algae under control.

3) *Light Duration * - I'm cutting back to 8 hours per day.

4) *Light Intensity* - I'm not changing that. I'm sticking with a rising/falling intensity schedule. At the moment that's 2.25 hrs @ 108w (T5's), then 1.25 hrs @ 216W, then 1 hr @ 324w and then back down to 216W...

5) *Plant Density* - I've ripped out all the riccia, which defeats my plant density goals in the short term. But it's retarding the growth of both the HC and the dwarf hairgrass. And I ripped up one (of the three) swords (major roots!) and planted a bunch of L. Palustiris from SueNH (thanks Sue!) that has been in my 20g growing out. I'll continue to add stems as they grow out in the 20. And I'll tackle those other two swords as I have enough stems to replace their biomass.

6) *Macro Ferts* - I've been on the Barr Ratio for about two weeks, and I think it has been killing me. Well, maybe not the ratio, but possibly the associated ppms. In Tom's defense I reread the paper where he posted this, and saw that it was associated with significant plant densities, and my tank is anything but dense. So I misapplied the ppm's IMO. So now my targets are ones that have worked for me in the past:
N 14
P 1.4
K 20-25

7) *Micro Ferts* - I've been a *dunce * in this area. I've been receiving major council to go easy here. In my quest of questioning everything I was doing, I went back and checked my spreadsheet formula's for micro dosing. To my dismay I found that I was calculating a fraction of Tropica's recommendation for TMG. And I've been making that mistake for almost a year and half now! I suppose this was a legacy from just starting out, and tending to OD on micros, so I must have tweaked the formulas. Dumb. (This forced me to go back an audit ALL my dosing calc's - no more dumb errors that I could find.)

Bottom line, I was intending to dose about 1/4 of the Tropica recommended dose due to my low biomass, _but was actually dosing _ about 1/25th. Doooh!

So I've upped  my micro's to 1/4 of the recommended does, or 6ml on water change. Maybe a bit of additional to be added during the week.

Frankly, my algae could be caused by this _drastic under-dosing _ of micros retarding plant growth. Wouldn't that be a kick!

8) *Increased Circulation* - from my prior posts, boosting that in hopes that all areas of the tank are adequately covered. A better solution for this would have probably been a powerhead in the tank, but I've got that whole "get the crap out of the tank/get rid of the wires and tubes" hang-up.


I know you are only supposed to change one thing at a time, if you want to be able to establish causality. But I'm not interested in a firm causal linkage right now. I'm interested in killing that g*#[email protected]*n algae. If this works, I know I'll never know which thing did it. But the algae will at least be gone!


----------



## Betowess

Steve, I know you know this but I'll say it any ways. Just load it up full of Egeria or Sunset Hygro (or some fast stem plant) to the max. It will control the algae. Then yank it out once stabalized. I just took a five gallon bucket full of egeria to the LFS the other day. Just gave it to the owner. He'll cut me a deal on something I need sometime in the future... And the plants cost me all of $9 and grew to about 700% of the original mass in four weeks. I still have a little glass algae but the tank's pretty darn stable. But I don't dose anything except Potassium sulphate at water change, iron and traces. The fish food takes care of nitrates and PO4. Its not the Barr method, but it works for me. But I have a fairly moderate to heavy fish load. I haven't a clue for what to do on fungus, except to remove it. Good luck.


----------



## scolley

Yeah, thanks Bob. I know. I should. I had that nice big java fern in there initially for just that purpose. But I took it out too soon in hopes of getting ready for AGA. Big mistake, but it's made now.

I'm gonna give the current plan a couple of weeks and see how it does. If it doesn't start working, I'll have to resort to the tried and true _tank full of temporary stems_ method. But I'd like to avoid it if I can.

Thanks.


----------



## scolley

*Lot's of changes...*

Probably going to be weeks before the tank is ready for pics again... lots  going on.

*Changes since last post:*
1) BGA started this week.
2) I ripped out the lava rocks wrapped with java fern separating the substrates. Much of the java fern had died (some lived too) and was getting BGA. I assume I let it get too dry as I was wrapping it on the rocks with thread.
3) I reduced the light further.
4) Cranked the CO2 up further into the 35-45 range.
5) Doing water changes every few days.
6) A zebra loach jumped (now deceased).
7) Moved the remaining zebra to the other tank before it was too late.
8) Got 4 Dollar Sunfish (Lepomis marginatus).
9) Found a big white pile of bass puke. I watched it for 2 days as it turned into the same fungus as on the banana plant. So now I know what happened to that plant.

*Plans for the coming week...*
1) More stems.
2) Maybe finding a new home for Mr. Piggie.


----------



## Bert H

Steve, I got to hand it to you, you're a bulldog man! roud: I think I'd be screaming at the tank, fish and algae by this time.  

Couple of suggestions/ideas, which I am sure you know and may have been discussed before, if so, I apologize. 

First, why not cut/adjust some on your lighting? Go with the 2 -2.5 wpg for 10 hours, without the siestas and intensity fluctuations. Once things get into a balance then crank it up to your likes gradually.

Secondly, as Bob said, load up on fast growing stems. Grab a handful of hornwort which would still fit into your bio-topic (is that a word?) idea and throw it in there. H. polysperma, which is growing rampant in my part of the world, could also fit your biotope, as the environmental 'invader' and would also act as a nutrient sink. The bga is troublesome as an indicator of things off-kilter. I saw you had some HC in there, I don't know how you can maintain that with algae, as slow a grower as that sucker can be.

You know of the CO2 issue. To paraphrase Tom here, increase that CO2! 

As for 'piggy puke', you might have to be ready to vaccuum out puke on a daily basis.  Does he puke typically shortly after being fed? I guess then it would be feeding and hanging around watching for the next several minutes with the vacuum ready. We have a cat that does that. At least he warns us by going through his noisy pre-puke heaving to give us time to put newspapers under him. The things we do for our pets.

Keep posting, man. roud:


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## Safado

Scolley, Thanks for sharing an update even if it is that there are problems. I think it is great that this thread is a true journal. 



scolley said:


> Probably going to be weeks before the tank is ready for pics again... lots  going on.
> 
> *Plans for the coming week...*
> 1) More stems.
> 2) Maybe finding a new home for Mr. Piggie.


With all of the talk about Piggie, is anyone else getting Lord of the Flies flashbacks?


----------



## scolley

Safado said:


> Scolley, Thanks for sharing an update even if it is that there are problems. I think it is great that this thread is a true journal.


Yeah, more like a blog really. Hope it doesn't get me in trouble with _the powers that be_.

Bert - thanks for the advice. But with minor exception on some of the specifics, I think I indicated that I'm pretty much doing what you are suggesting. But I'm not going to "steady" state light vs. increasing/diminishing - that work's but am to busy to go into that now... And the bass seems to puke after gorging itself. But it could be after I've fed it whole shrimp pellets. I'll have to watch and see.


I've had a good review of the tank's progress and decline. I keep excessively anal records of everything. If I squirt 2 ml of Excel, clean the glass, observe algae in a new place, it's ALL recorded.

In reviewing these records, and photo's that I've not shared, I'm now certain that the decline began when I removed the big java fern from the tank to prep for AGA. It was in there to provide the tank temporary biomass until the tank was mature. But I pulled the huge java fern too soon, which IMO created the self-feeding set of problems that I'm digging out of now.

Give it a bit of time, and all will be well. roud:


----------



## Hypancistrus

I've known more than one person who kept bass.

They are distant cousins of cichlids. Cichlids are known for being territorial, but bass are *fiercely* territorial. That bass is quite small right now, but it will grow very fast, and that tank will soon be _his_, end of story. It will kill or eat every other fish in there. One possible exception is larger coldwater catfish. Bass don't seem to "see" them as "other fish."

Sub adult to adult bass will wreak havoc on plants.

Minimum size tank for a keeping a bass in reasonable health and happiness is 120g. Many people enjoy watching them eat feeder goldfish and guppies, but these are actually poor food for the overall health of the fish. Quality frozen foods are a much better choice.

Just FYI!


----------



## scolley

Hypancistrus said:


> I've known more than one person who kept bass.
> 
> They are distant cousins of cichlids. Cichlids are known for being territorial, but bass are *fiercely* territorial. That bass is quite small right now, but it will grow very fast, and that tank will soon be _his_, end of story.


Yes, so I'm learning. I replaced the zebras with sunfish in the hope that the sunnies would eat small snails, and so I could get the zebras out before they were eaten by the gar.

And I've never intended to keep the bass beyond a 6" length or so, but I'm finding out about that territorial nature now. The bass grew up with the zebras, and seemed to accept them, even enjr their company. But when the sunfish went in, all heck broke loose! I got sunfish that were larger than the bass deliberately, but it clearly wants to kill them anyway. It is absolutely not afraid of larger fish! I'm watching and waiting...

Between the puke and the extraordinary aggression, Mr. Piggie's days may be numbered. I wanted to have a bass in the tank for a while longer. But not _this _ bad.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

lol, glutton for punishment are ya there Steve?.... :tongue:


----------



## Hypancistrus

I believe bluegill and sunfish are from the same family as bass. One person I knew tried a tank with one bass and two bluegill. After less than a week he arrived at his tank one morning to find both bluegill nearly _torn_ apart.

I'm giving them a bad rap though... a typical oscar setup (120g with rocks) would make a great bass home, and bass can be just as personable as oscars, even coming to the surface to greet their human for a pat on the head.


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## scolley

*Goodbye Mr. Piggie!*

The bass is gone! I've got a buddy with a private stocked pond, one with no way out, no where to go, but lots and lots of brush, minnows and other large mouth bass. So naturally, that's where Mr. Piggie went!

I _loved _ having the bass! Its power, speed and aggression were a sight to behold. I used to love to fish for them because they were fun to catch, but I've got a whole lot more respect for them now. They are _serious _ predators!

Bass in a baggie.









As Buck indicated, it was almost eating out of my hand. Not quite. But real close. It was happy to take food from the surface that my finger tip was still touching. It was an eating machine!

But the puke combined with the unexpected brutal attacks on the Dollar Sunfish took things over the top. I've always intended that sunfish of some form be the ultimate inheritors of this aquascape, knowing that the predators would outgrow the tank and have to go. But I did hope the bass and sunfish could co-exist for a while. But it was not to be. And when something had to give between the bass and the sunnies, Mr. Piggie got a new home.

Farewell Mr. Piggie. You were a ton of fun! Try not to act too much like a bait fish - you're swimming with the big boys now!


----------



## Kyle

*waves* bye piggie!

where's the pics of the sunfish


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## scolley

Kyle said:


> where's the pics of the sunfish


Waiting on pics of the tank. Which are waiting on disappearance of the algae. Which I hope does not turn out to be like "Waiting for Godot". :wink: 


(WFIW - if you saw the the absurdist Beckett play, Godot never comes! You just wait. :icon_frow )


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## scolley

*What a week!*

Well, the remedial steps are all in place, and so far seem to be working...

1) BGA has not returned yet, since I ripped it all out, along with the Java Moss.
2) I ripped out all the old L. repens. The tops looked great, but the lower leaves were all so algae covered (stalks too) it seemed best to just replace them.
3) Got more stems - 
L. Repens (30 stems) - replacing the old stuff
Egeria densa (30 stems) - I've posted that I don't like this stuff, but I had to get more stems in the tank, and these are native fast growers
Hydrocotyle Leucocephala - NOT native, I know - South American. But it is supposed to be a fast grower, and it looks like some natives. I'll rip it out later.​4) I finally ripped out the radican swords! Didn't want to do it until I replaced their biomass.
5) Puked on banana plant - I pulled it out for inspection, and it had major healthy roots, and was looking like it was trying to out grow, or shed, its old bananas - growing new small ones. So I pulled them, and the puke fungus off. We'll see how it works out.​
The 'scape is gone. For now. Ripping up the java moss rocks allowed the Eco-complete to mix with the sand. I knew it would, and it's a mess. I'll fix it later after things settle down.

The layout is really bogus now. But it too is in transition while I get this algae under control. It's gonna be a while before the tank looks good again. I'd guess a 2-3 months (if I'm lucky).

I'll not wait for the tank pics to get some shots of the dollar sunfish. They get along well with the gar, and don't even eat his (her?) food. But I'm anxious to see if they will keep the snail population in check.


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## fedge

Need Pictures>>>


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## scolley

soon. promise.


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## Buck

LOL... you must have a real mess going on Steve if there are no photos, keep a chin up soldier...its just a phase that you will laugh at later. roud:

Too bad about the bass bro... :icon_frow


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## lumpyfunk

Ill miss Mr. Piggy, I am sure the sun fish are cool, but what would you video them doing?


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## timr

WOW!

Scolley it seems like it was all so short lived. Remember when you set up the tank and i said it was awsome that you were planning on only 2 stems? you replied that it was either awsome or stupid......

HAHA, i guess we found out.


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## scolley

*It's not over - I'm just starting...*



timr said:


> WOW!
> 
> Scolley it seems like it was all so short lived.


Clearly I've been misunderstood...



The 'scape is not dead. It will ABSOLUTELY be completed. And I will be executing the plans I always had, with the sand, and making the path into something people might actually like, and fish and plants appropriate for a biotope.

The old scape was not that, it was something similar, but with a lot of compromises in order to get ready for AGA. Well, with the exception of the temporary Hydrocotyle (which should be easy to rip out) I'm starting on the real 'scape. It should look as good, and hopefully better, than the "original".

But rather than trying the "instant aquascape" option, as I did for AGA, I'm actually going to be growing this one - and it's going to take a bit of time.

The play is far from over. That was just an amusing 1st act.


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## ja__

what about some new pics?


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## scolley

ja! Welcome to planted tank! I'm honored that your first post would be here...

Are you asking for pics of the fish? I'll have some of those soon...

Or are you asking for pics of the tank, _warts and all_? I'm certainly not too proud to post pictures of the tank in its transitional phase. It's interesting learning, but not very pretty.

Fish or tank?


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## ja__

hoping for both :icon_bigg 

ecscuse me if im bad at english im norwegian


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## scolley

Better than my Norwegian ja! I'll try to get some of both...


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## scolley

*Fish Pics*

OK, here's a few fish pics. Not too good, but you can at least see what the Dollar Sunfish (Lepomis marginatus) look like. These are adult, but may get 50% larger.

I had four of them until this morning, when I found one on the floor. They must weigh 5 times what the gar weighs, but it may have gone after one. I gather gar hunt at night. The morning is when I found the zebra. So I suspect the gar is spooking the fish. I may have to get some more...

Oh yeah, the gar is bloated in one of these pics. It just finished its weekly pig-out.































And this final pic I just couldn't resist. Our Siamese, Smooch, ignores my 20g. But the 75g she _just can't help _ but watch. Not sure what the difference is, maybe bigger fish, moving around in a more leisurely fashion. Either way - she spends a lot of time watching.










I'll post some more tank pics later. Right now it's my wedding anniversary, so it's time to go pay more attention to my better half! roud:


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## Pseud

Looks good Steve. That last shot is great. Our cat also spends time watching our 55. Pretty much ignored our 20 though.


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## BlueRam

Impresive tank& photos (as always). I am starting to see the look you are going for. I find the tank a little distracting without a background, but we can discuss that latter...

You are making want to do that NA biotope now...


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## scolley

*Shameless Promotion*

Wow! I almost forgot... I wanted to let everyone that might be interested in native species themselves know about Jonah's Aquarium. They've been great. When I was looking for fish in a specific size, they found them for me. The fish have all arrived, and remained, alive. And it's clear they go to reasonable lengths to keep the shipping costs down. A great vendor in my book! roud:


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## Urkevitz

The sunnies and the gar look at home in your tank. I like how the scape looks now. The combination of hairgrass and ludwigia looks very natural, I see them growing together often.


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## scolley

Urkevitz said:


> The sunnies and the gar look at home in your tank. I like how the scape looks now. The combination of hairgrass and ludwigia looks very natural, I see them growing together often.


Thanks folks. The tank looks sub-optimal now for multiple reasons... but I think some of the original intent is beginning to show -

1) the front will be sand - taupe sand - just like is found in that environment.
2) just beyond that (and even into the sand to some extent) will be the dwarf hairgrass.
3) that hairgrass should cover up the "legs" of the Ludwigia forming the midground. The variety of Ludwigia will be determined over my success/failure over the next 6 months.
4) the background will be giant hairgrass.​
Now, with all that said. The intended aquascape will have a few exceptions to what I've stated above.
1) The foreground plant will be allowed to mix in with the sand in front, and with the midground plant in the middle.
2) The background plant will be allowed to mix in with the midground plant.
3) Some form of native nymphaea, or hydrocotyle, will be allowed remain to provide both an aesthetic contrast to the hard vertical lines defined by the background, and provide some surface cover to reproduce the surface cover found in the real environment (the fish love it too!)
4) The "path" in the middle will be almost a 45 degree angle to the front. So that when viewed from the front, it will be invisible. But when viewed from an angle (as most of the people in my home see it), it will suggest a path to something interesting just over the horizon (if only you could just see it!).​That's the idea anyway.

It'll take months to get there. But thanks for the kind words (PM's included!) in the interim. :icon_bigg 

So much for talk. Now I need to get you pictures of the shambles the tank is in now!

PS - Pseud, I will not even begin to pretend I understand the mind of a cat. My only greater ignorance is in understanding the mind of a woman. But at least I can say that cats seem to like looking at larger, rather than smaller, tanks. Beyond that it all remains a mystery! :wink:


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## PinkRasbora

looking nice as always. 

You should make a soap oprea depicting all the drama that has come with this tank. it would be so great!


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## ja__

nice tank  

thanks for pics dude :fish:


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## donaldbyrd

BlueRam said:


> Impresive tank& photos (as always). I find the tank a little distracting without a background, but we can discuss that latter...
> 
> I actually like it without a background, just seems to fit with the clean lines of the tank. Looks more natural to me.


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## TheOtherGeoff

Good to see someone else with a native fish tank. i miss mine but they were super messy and always tearing things up. plants were close to impossible to keep with them. althought i must say my fish were much larger then what you have plus i had some more aggresive fish. 

All i have to say about the bass is its sad to see it go but that was prolley the best move you could have made. the one i had would attack and fight with my bluegill almost constantly. they would always beat each other up getting each other fin rot and such. and you are right....the gar usually will hunt at night.


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## scolley

*Holey Moley! Not again?!?!*



PinkRasbora said:


> looking nice as always.
> 
> You should make a soap oprea depicting all the drama that has come with this tank. it would be so great!


Drama? Here's some drama...

I've HAD IT with the BGA. It hasn't taken over the tank, but it is a problem. And IMO I'm doing EVERYTHING within reason to eliminate it but blackouts and erythromycin. So I bought some Maracyn (erythromycin) today, put it in the tank, and clipped out every single spec of the BGA I could find. And I aggressively scraped all the dust off the glass while I was at it.

I skimmed all the stuff (within reason ) that floated to the top, set the fishnet aside (there would be more floating up later). I mopped up the puddle on the floor (sloshing while clipping I guess... ) and took a break. I came back after a while to clean up what ever else had floated up, and found...

THE PUDDLE​
OK, no big deal. What's a little mystery water on the floor? I probably sloshed more than I thought, maybe lots in back that I could not see, and it's all slowly leaking down. So I look in the stand, to make sure it's not equipment. Nope - water dripping into the stand all around the top edges. So it's coming from the sides of the tank. Well, it was good to see that my DIY drip guard over the electronics worked as designed. roud: Everything else near the edges getting dripped on though. So I laid down towels in the stand and cleaned up the floor. But when I returned in 10 minutes I found...

THE BIG PUDDLE​
OK... Breathe slowly... probably nothing... just more water making its way down. I must have sloshed a lot! But being paranoid (and worried frankly), I put a little magic marker mark on the water line. Too bad that I can't see the glass where the sides hits the bottom - hidden behind the stand top rim. So I leave the tank alone for a difficult and tense 10 minutes, trying to read a magazine in the kitchen as a voice in my head keeps repeating "It can't be a leak. It can't be a leak. It CAN"T BE A LEAK!". Finally I can't stand it any longer, and return to find...

THE 2nd BIG PUDDLE
- and - 
THE WATERLINE IS NOW WELL BELOW THE MAGIC MARKER!!!!​
The mixture and rush of emotions I felt was _unbelievable_. A leak!!! It had to have happened when I was pushing on the glass with the algae scraper! D*MN!

So, should I show great strength and courage, and fix this leak too? After tearing down the entire tank to do it? Or do I do _what I really want to do_, and take a hammer  to it and smash the thing?!?! Or maybe I just post a note that says "Sorry folks. I've had it. Steve's taken up a new hobby - naked scuba diving in high altitude lakes - for the sake of his mental health, he's not coming back... "?

Or should I just sit down _and cry_?

I was just staring at the tank. Thinking over these (and other) options. But that's when I saw...

THE NET​
I had been using cloth fishnet to get all the clipped BGA that floated up to the top. And I left it in the corner of the top of the tank, to be handy for more skimming. Well... it was a big net, and half of the cloth was in the tank, and half hanging out. And it was acting like a siphon, carrying water over the edge and out of the tank.

What a dope!  Lost a few gallons of water from the tank because of a foolishly placed net! Anyone else, that has not build their own tank, probably would not have reached the same momentary depths of despair.



*Drama Concluded*
I suppose that's the curse of building our own tank. Every unaccounted drop on the floor becomes an object of suspicion and anxiety. I suppose it is what it is - an unexpected price that you pay.

Well, that's my drama for the day PinkRas. Gee, I'm hoping it's my drama for the week. I'll let you guys know how the BGA treatment goes in a few days. roud:


----------



## Hop

ROFL. I hope you don't take it personally, but I found this quite entertaining. As you may or may not know, that is the story of my life surrounding this hobby. I'm glad I'm not the only one and I'm glad that it was something simple and not a hobby ending experience! I've never had the net issue, but I have had everything from a Co2 overdose that nearly flooded my house, killed my dog and lost my daughter to a $0.19 hose clamp break and empty about 3/4 of my 125 onto the floor, which found a hole into the crawlspace and directly onto my water softener's control board :icon_conf


----------



## unirdna

:hihi:

Steve, I've done this! Like many, whenever I go tearing into my tanks I grab a towel. Well that towel found itself in the 1/2 in 1/2 out postion you described. I unknowingly (obviously) left it in that position as guests arrived at our house for a cookout. Over the course of an hour - I was manning the grill and making margaritas - the towel wicked about a gallon of water onto the floor. Walk inside with a plate of burgers and franks, wearing flip-flops, step on wet tile - BAM! Burgers and franks all over the walls, floor, ceiling, and windows.


----------



## scolley

LOL :hihi: Thanks Guys. If you've got to feel stupid, it's nice to not feel stupid alone!


And thanks for the confirmation on the nocturnal gar hunting Theothergeoff. It seemed a bit coincidence that I'd have two jumpers at night, a time when most fish are generally at a low activity level. And I hadn't mentioned the feeders I've found in the mornings, along with Amano shrimp. I figured it was all too much for coincidence.

As for the background, or lack thereof, I appreciate the comments, but IMO it can't really be judged until the scape is finished. Then that decision will be important. But until that time, having a background definately destroys that "big cube of water" illusion. But then again, having those green Eheim hoses on the side does to. Gotta go get me some more clear hoses. I replaced the old ones because they got so filthy, there was just no cleaning them.


----------



## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Gosh Steve I got so scared reading that!! I was feeling quite a bit of despair so I can't even imagine what you felt! Phew glad it was just the towel.


----------



## Bert H

LOL, Steve. As I was reading that I too thought, Oh no a leak! I'm glad for you it wasn't! As for stupid tank slowly draining issues, I once left the CO2 port from my reactor un-connected when I was doing some maintenance. A few minutes after having finished filling the tank I looked over and it was several inches down from the top. That's when I saw the stream of water coming from the port. A few choice words later and several towels things were back to normal - even if I did have to put a fan to blow onto the carpeting by the tank for the next 2 days.


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## BlueRam

Nothing is going to be easy with this tank is it! As to the BGA (blue green algea), I do get it in my smaller tanks every so often when I A) overfeed and B) get lax about WC. Now even without Mr. P, I think it can be said that your tank is a bit overfed... I would recomed you cut WAY back on feeding for a week expecially considering that you likely nuked the biofilter with the pills. 

If I got anything wrong (like you have BBA black beard ....) please ignore the prior story.

So keep at it, I am almost ready to send out some more ludgwega etc if you loose yours or need more...


----------



## scolley

Thanks! I can always use the ludwigia!

As for the BGA, as you can imagine, I've been pretty religious about water changes and ferts. And having done all the other stuff, like cutting back on light and stuff, I have also come to suspect that my problem is excess "biological" nitrates. I can't remember what that's called exactly, but people have posted a good bit about it here. I've tried to do my research. :wink: 

So your food suggestion is a good one. I think the fish are going to have to go hungry for a week or so, and see what happens. Thanks!


----------



## BlueRam

I think there are a few words for "excess biological nitrate" that I am not going to say....

It may be that you just have to ignore the algea and proceed as planed. Focus on growing the plants and the tank will come around. 



scolley said:


> Thanks! I can always use the ludwigia!
> 
> As for the BGA, as you can imagine, I've been pretty religious about water changes and ferts. And having done all the other stuff, like cutting back on light and stuff, I have also come to suspect that my problem is excess "biological" nitrates. I can't remember what that's called exactly, but people have posted a good bit about it here. I've tried to do my research. :wink:
> 
> So your food suggestion is a good one. I think the fish are going to have to go hungry for a week or so, and see what happens. Thanks!


----------



## Steven_Chong

The siphon mistake . . . 

I've done that too . . .

Once I had a desk tank in my bedroom. But, I like to read when I go to sleep, and often I accidentally leave the nightlight on, and that was resulting in an excess of greenspot algae (nightlight next to the tank). So one night I tried putting a towel over the tank so the night light wouldn't get in on it . . .

I woke up around 2:00 in the morning to a smoke filled room and a very wet carpet as the water had leaked out AND gotten all over the power strip.


----------



## scolley

*Big week for the Big Clear Kahuna...*

Well, all the brouhaha around my algae battle has made it an interesting week...

1) 5 days of an 80% dose of Maracyn. Instructions call for 5 days. I'm gonna make it 7. Interestingly lots of the algae on a lot of things just rubbed right off today. Which was nice! Before that stuff hung on like nobody's business!

2) No food for the fish. Yep - diet time, getting rid of those naturally induced nitrates.

3) Set up my dosing pumps finally. Part of the problem, IMO, is that I haven't been staying on top of the ferts like I should. I'm so used to auto-dosing, I just have been very bad about checking on a regular basis. Now I'm well aware of the problems that could come out of the initial setup of auto-dosing. But hey, the tank's screwed up. When better than now?

4) Micros! I saw a spike after I dosed TMG, even though I'm convinced that I'm massively under dosing micros. So I dosed no micros after my water change, and will only be dosing 2/3 ml per day from here on out, until I begin to detect visible micro deficiencies, or the algae goes away.

5) Potassium. I've cut back on K big time because I'd detected what I thought were signs of potassium excess. Well, that's about the time the BGA took off. And today, I doses K as per Seachem instructions a few hours after a water change, and within 30 minutes things were pearling like crazy. I think I may have just figured out what I was doing wrong. Maybe.


I'd have taken pics. It actually looked pretty good today. But somehow showing pics just didn't seem right. I mean, it looked good after I spend 90 minutes scraping glass, vacuuming sand, and hand rubbing algae off leaves.

Let's see how it looks in a day or two, and I'll take a picture of that. For good or ill, that seems a much more honest picture to show!

More in a few days... :wink:


----------



## Jim

Steve,

What does potassium excess look like? 

Thanks,

Jim


----------



## scolley

Good question Jim. Please read here. I had symptoms that looked like a Mg deficiency, but I assumed that could not be the case due to the Epsom salts on a weekly basis to raise my GH. And a Potassium excess can apparently manifest itself in the restricted uptake of a number of things, Mg included.

In retrospect, I think I misdiagnosed that one, and plunged my tank into problems due to my elimination of K dosing for a few weeks, assuming multiple 50% water changes with no K dosing would bring that back under control. No I think that was a bad call.

But the only reasonable answer reason is that instead I had a an iron deficiency (or micros in general). But while I was going through algae hell, I realized that I was indeed way under dosing micros. Far beyond the recommendations of people like PJAN (see prior posts). But to my dismay, when I tried to fix this by upping the micro doses (still WAY, WAY, WAY below normal levels) I had BGA explosions within hours or days.

So what do I make of all this...

1) I was under dosing micros, leading to conditions that I mistakenly interpreted as a Potassium deficiency.

2) My under dosing of potassium, along with the already grievously under dosed micros, lead to a massive algae outbreak.

3) When I tried to fix the micro doses, because the K was not yet fixed, and because the plants were just not doing well... the "correct" micro dose lead to BGA explosion.

4) The addition of appropriate levels of potassium today lead to a huge increase of pearling within 20 minutes, making that deficiency somewhat conclusive.

5) Assuming the K deficiency is conclusive, that implies that my assertions that my early problem was not K deficiency, but dangerous restriction of micros instead, a reasonable assumption.

6) With my K boosted to appropriate levels, we'll see if my new regimen of provision of limited micros will lead to healthier growth.

7) All that is said within the context that I've just finished a massive bombing of BGA with antibiotics, and have toasted my bio filter.


Wow. Sorry. Short question. Long reply.

This stuff is still voodoo to me. But I'm trying.


----------



## lumpyfunk

Steve, I had to pick my heart up off the floor after reading about the "the net issue" I find it kind of disturbing how I can have a MASSIVE GW outbreak(after a massive bba outbreak that cost me 50% of my plants that occoured after my 20# [email protected] cyllender outgased and killed all my fish) and it dosent even come colse to bothering me as much as thinking that your tank had a leak in it. . .


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## scolley

*Bga...*

Thanks Lump. That's really kind of you to be so sympathetic! Bummer about the tank :icon_frow 

In telling my net I wasn't trying to create anxiety though... just a little entertainment. :wink: Sorry about that.

BGA
Well, the Maracyn did it's job. Any BGA left to be seen looks dead. Now I just have to find what stimulated it in the first place.

My principal suspect is excess biological nitrates. Not just fish poop either, but rotting plants. I think I should have been giving my dwarf hairgrass more haircuts. And I'm really worried about the giant hairgrass.

While lots of giant hairgrass has grown, the growth has slowed down. I did a water change this weekend, and did not have to trim a bit that was sticking out the top. That's unusual. At first, by the end of the week, I'd have to trim a ton. And most of it is algae covered. I suspect that stuff has to have haircuts too - to take out the old leaves and stimulate new growth. 

Gonna try it with a patch and see. Anyone know about this?

And the fish will stay on a diet for a few more days. Gotta keep those bio-nitrates down to avoid a quick snap back of the BGA.


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## Buck

Steve I think that is the nature of the plant... I have never seen giant hairgrass grown in tanks with what I would call "great success". Older growth needs to be trimmed often much like its smaller counter parts but the new growth is not as fast. 
It needs to be planted in large patches so that you do not miss the trimmings as much. You havre it planted in a line basically and each trimming is very noticeable.
I shivered a bit when I saw you add it to the tank... especially being a new setup that needs to go through the maturing process that you are in now.

It is a difficult plant in my eyes to keep attractive and healthy looking.


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## scolley

Thanks Buck. That sounds like bad news at first, but it's not really. It's a confirmation that I've got to trim the stuff, which should reduce the bio-nitrates, reduce the algae and keep growth vigorous. :icon_bigg 

The bad news is that I've got to trim the stuff. :icon_frow


----------



## Buck

By trimming it you will do it a big favor and in the long run be all the better for it. It really is a difficult plant that you chose to use but then again you have never been the type to take the "easy route"... LOL

Lets face it... there are varierties of Valisneria found in just about every waterway in North America and you could have easily used that instead of hairgrass for a NA biotope but you opted for the hairgrass... you are a bolder man then me... !! :icon_bigg 

Give it time and scissors, once the tank is balanced and mature the hairgrass will be a major contributor to the look. 
Too show the plants difficulty rating, I challenge you to show me 3 tank photos that have it growing "beautifully"... 

Many have tried it... not many have kept it long. :wink:


----------



## Bert H

> Lets face it... there are varierties of Valisneria found in just about every waterway in North America and you could have easily used that instead of hairgrass for a NA biotope but you opted for the hairgrass... you are a bolder man then me... !


 I have to agree with that one! 

Steve, if you're ever interested, I can go to the Santa Fe River here in N. Fl and collect a bunch of grass for you. Not being great at id'ing, I believe there is both Sag and Val. I have used native Sag collected from an urban creek and while it grew a little slower than val, the end result was the same. But, imo, it does look good as a background, just a pita to keep in check.


----------



## scolley

Buck - this isn't me being bold. It's me being uninformed! I've tried sag and vals, and I just like how the hairgrass looks better, and with the dwarf hairgrass right in front of it, i thought it would look cool.

I'll just chalk this one up to live and learn. Again, this encouraging so far because I now know that I must trim it, and that might improve things. It's not time to give up on the giant hairgrass yet.


Bert - Thanks for the kind offer. I've had some in the past, and when it was healthy, it was a constant struggle - ripping up runners. I was hoping to avoid that. But if this giant hairgrass defeats me, I'll give you a yell. Thanks!


----------



## Buck

Heck no... dont give up on it ! Just consider another challenge :tongue: :icon_bigg


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## kzr750r1

Although I understand your concern Steve about the biological NO3 but are you dosing additional NO3?

I had to stop dosing when I had a pack of Mollies in my 55. I still have 10ppm and have not added any for at least a year. I just dose K PO4 and Micros and let the fish create the NO3.

Now since a large kill at WC a few weeks ago the tank will likely need to have some added in the next few WC. Test kits and plant observation will tell the tale. 

Good luck on the quest for your balance.


----------



## scolley

kzr750r1 said:


> Although I understand your concern Steve about the biological NO3 but are you dosing additional NO3?


Yes I am. Well, not NO3, but Seachem Nitrogen. Dosing to 15ppm. Left to its own devices the tank seems to drive will drive down to at least 8, maybe 6. I've been afraid to let it go lower, and have been targeting 15.

I'll get that balance soon enough. After a water change today (an extra one - I'm being diligent) it looked good enough to photograph. Not as good as the past mind you, but passable. But the lights went out, and I'm not willing to push the light schedule just to get some good pics.

But I did do a major hairgrass haircut - both dwarf and giant. But for now I'm just letting the stems grow.

Maybe pics tomorrow.


----------



## scolley

*Pics, but not to thrilling...*

I've been saying I'd post some pics for while, even if they were humble. Well here's a few, and they _are _ humble.

I suppose the best thing you can say is that the tank is not visibly eaten up with algae. But these were taken 1 day after a major glass scrape, and 2 days after the end of an antibiotic treatment for BGA.

You can see that with the java moss covered rocks, the eco-complete and the sand are really mixing now. But that's OK, I'll let that play itself out for a few months, then dig out the "dirty sand" and replace with clean.


Here you can really see the algae on the giant hairgrass. I ripped up 2/3 of it, hoping new will shoot up clean.




The stems all need clipping, but I'm trying to let things grow for the moment, so sorry they don't look nicer. And the dwarf hairgrass is kind of shabby, though reasonably thick due to my giving it a haircut to clear it of all BGA.


So clearly the aquascape is not _dead_ per se. It's just going through a growth and adjustment phase. My list of to-do's is:

1) get algae free (_"all other priorities rescinded"_ - to quote a movie...)
2) fix the sand
3) re-arrange the "path"
4) get the background filled in - hopefully with giant hairgrass
5) remove the hydrocotyle
6) remove the lotus / replace with unquestionable natives
7) re-arrange the Ludwigia, Nymphaea, and Egeria densa​
Not much. Should be done in about 6 months. roud:


----------



## naX

It still looks pretty darn good scolley! I'll be blunt and say it's not AGA material, but you already know that right now. I have full confidence in you and your skills.

By the way, it may just be me, but I think you may want to consider swapping issue items #2 and #3. Change the path while the sand is already mixed. Then you can fix it up without having to worry about it going array again when you change the path.


----------



## PJAN

Hey Steve,

I was waiting for the new pictures. 

Algae on plants are s sign that either the ferst are not ok or the plant is not suitable for permanent use in a tank.
I am still wondering if the giant hairgrass is suitable for planted tanks.

Also : what is the wood doing? Is it suitable for use?
All I know when I have algea is also investigating the wood. I don't trust wood at all.
But maybe I am a bit to negative here, but I had too many negative experiences with wood in generall.

If you're gonna re-arranging the path... maybe try it to make a bit more to the left / right. It is stiil deviding the tank in half.

I have now growing Vallisneria nana. A Vallisneria species with very small leaves and only about 20 inch height. Maybe that's an alternative for the giant-hairgrass?
Although I don't know if it is an native species... But Vallisneria is very common and I think growing in your area to.

Well, after all my remarks... I still find the tank very attractive. O, boy, crystal clear glass. Just finish the aquascape and fight the algae ! It will be a stunning tank in a month ( or two).

Gr. 
PJAN


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## Buck

Do yourself a favor bro and bury that hairgrass. That is the same problem I had until I buried it, and I mean deep. If you see a root it aint deep enough ! :wink: 
It is time consuming, but pull it , then cut it into quarter size chunks "again" , and bury that stuff half way up the plant and get the roots down. 
Until I did that in my tank I had the same problem as you have with it spreading "out" of the substrate instead of in it. You can never control the visible brown roots and stems until it starts deep.
The visible brown roots only gets worst with age , _you may_ have even allready mentioned to yourself by now how that brown just dont look right... 
It takes longer to spread, but once it is planted deeper, all you will see is lush green and it is just like a lawn now... roud:

Just before I pulled all mine there was one spot that I trimmed to 3/4" and it was awesome ! My lowered lighting eventually murdered it, but in my short, grass experience that is what I learned. :icon_bigg

In my humble opinion Steve... the tank looks much better then you give credit for...I am with PJAN here...it will be a "more" stunning tank with time ! roud:


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Steve, add alot more plant matter to the tank till it get's balanced out, you have alot of tank, and if you want that background full of grass, you will have to plant alot of fast growing somethings back there with it, then weed out as you progress..or be darn patient, reduce lighting, pick preen pull prune, I would add some hygro or something to get it going..will take time but can be done...
thats my 2 pennie's


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## John P.

I agree with Craig. I think you need more plants! You'll get there, bud!


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## scolley

*naX * - Definately not AGA! Just not destroyed as I seem to have given the impression of in earlier posts. Just maturing, and in a temporary awkward phase.

Swapping #2 and #3 - yes definately! Having done this in the order posted would have certainly been boneheaded. Thanks.


*PJAN * - the path will be diagonal - almost invisible unless viewing the tank from an angle. And it will be shifted to the right of the middle.

I'm not sure about the wood either. It's certain covered with algae. Could be the culprit. I'll have to get the ferts and light dead on first to be sure.

And Vals are a native background consideration. But like the bass, I've got to get the giant hairgrass out of my system first. It's what I want, and until such time that I become convinced that I can't have it, I'll be trying to make it work.


*Buck * - Thanks for the hairgrass tip. I'll do that. But it causes me a problem.

The substrate on the left of the tank is really shallow. It doesn't look like it, but there are two inches of slate under it, anchoring the stump. It's really a problem I did not anticipate (the extreme buoyancy of the cypress and anchoring). So to really bury the stuff, it will take more substrate (I've go extra) and sand. And do do it right, I'll have to raise the entire tank up to that level. Which leads me to shifting the path to the right spot first...

All just to bury the roots of dwarf hairgrass better!


*Craig and John* - I know your advice is correct. I have a bit more total biomass in there right now than I want to end up with. So I'm hesitant to but in more things that I'll just be ripping out. I've got more than I want now. But if the algae does not get under control soon, I'll really have no choice but to take your advice. Thanks.


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## Mahlon

Scolley, very nice tank you've got there. What temperature are you keeping the water?

Thanks,
Mahlon Bouldin


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## scolley

Thanks Mahlon - funny you should ask. The temp was set for 76, but I moved it down to the 74-75 range just yesterday, as it's a better range for some of the plants. Many of the earlier pics were in the 79-80 range though. The room it's in has no AC, and it get's warm in the summer, and I can't afford a chiller. :icon_frow


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## fedge

You know the left hand side of the tank is relatively similar to a lake I was at this summer it even had some grass surounding larger even reddish plants.. I was tempted to swipe some of teh hair-like grass.. but my wife made me promise not to take anymore plants home again...


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## Phil Edwards

Hey Steve, that's looking good! If you can, as the plants grow in, try to trim them in such a way that one of the sides gets bigger than the other. The similarity in size isn't very dynamic.

Regards,
Phil


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## Steven_Chong

I like the last shot-- it's a work in progress, but my two cents is that I really like the hydrocotyles!

I think they compliment the nymphea very well. Also the anacharis looks amazing!!


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## scolley

*fedge * - Where were you swimming? That's too cool - and good to hear! Thanks.

*Phil * - Thanks. At the moment I'm trimming NOTHING. Too much upheaval lately. So I'm trying to just let stuff dig in for a few weeks. After that comes the aquascaping. But yes, right now the lines are raggedy.

*Greenmiddlefinger * - Thanks! I didn't think I was going to like the hydrocotyles, but I find I'm really liking it. But I'm bummed, because it's not native, and it's gonna have to go. It's just temporary until the tank gets up on it's feet. :icon_frow 

And BTW, I resisted the anacharis (E. densa) big time. I was so sick of seeing that stuff in propellers I never wanted to see anymore. But it's doing well, and looks OK IMO, much to my surprise and delight. "_You can't always get what you want... but if you try sometime, you just might find... "_ :wink: 


*Update*
All the various "anti-algae" steps seem to be working. Knock on wood. Though I have developed some thread algae. Not bad, but it's presence at all bothers me.

I find myself stuck in that difficult "patience required" phase. Watching slow improvement, and making gradual changes. A little more light (now that the BGA is gone!), a bit more micros, and even a bit of food for the fish. But I know the name of the game here is slow and easy for a while. 

I've been holding off on biting the bullet on dry ferts for a while, having to research and understand that dosing (Seachem is so easy). But I've held to the idea that I wanted to wait until this tank got established - sticking to what I know. But maybe _now_ is the time. If I got this tank back on its feet, looking good and everything, _and then_ messed it up again due to some boneheaded mistake while making the switchover to dry, I might have to kill myself. Maybe it's getting to be time to make that switch... hmmmm....

Oh yeah! I almost forgot! I'm so excited - I mentioned earlier that I whacked about 2/3 of the algae infested giant hairgrass. Well wadda ya know? It's growing back like gangbusters! roud: Soon, if I might be able to painstakingly get rid of that last algae coved 1/3rd, and have nice light green giant hairgrass. I hope.


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## Steven_Chong

It's all about taste-- there are lots of non-american hobbyists who love anacharis because it's not as available. Your right I'm probably sick of it too, but that doesn't stop me from collecting lots of its relatives which shows that I actually think that type of plant is really attractive. Plus it's darker green helps your green-level I think. 

Are the hydrocotyles really not native? I've never been to a cypress swamp, but I did get the chance to visit a swamp in Louisiana once and there were hydrocotyles all over the place!


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## scolley

You are absolutely right greenmiddlefinger. Many are native. Unfortunately these aren't. But I collected some that are, and put them in my 20g grow out tank were they were promptly decimated by the fish.

So I've moved a few bits of it into the 75g before it is all gone. Some I've got floating, and one stem with a couple of leaves I planted. I've got my fingers crossed that something comes of it. It's a beautiful variety - bright green on the leaf tops, and deep purple on the undersides. Beautiful.

I've got my fingers crossed.


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## Mahlon

Hey Scolley, I've not been able to read the whole thread. I was wondering what kind of biotope (if you are) you are doing. I was born and raised on a cypress swamp in the Mississippi Delta, and just two days ago have collected some new plants and cypress knees from the back of my folks place. The reason I asked about the temp of your water is that I'm ineterested in doing such a tank -- a Cypess Brake, we call them. We've got Green Sunfishes and Pumpkinseed Sunfishes, Brim, Gar, Channel Catfish, mudpuppies, crawdads, top minnows, and some kind of weird killifishes that I can't identify. Oh, also, some freshwater shrimp. The water is tannic and lots of places covered with duckweed. But it's very clear, dark tea colored and when you can get a good look is quite gorgeous. And the cypress knees and stumps are the cat's meow.

Anyway, always looking for advice, so if you or anyone else has attempted such a scheme and has some info, I'd be appreciative for tidbits.

Thanks,
Mahlon


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## scolley

Mahlon - I look forward to your progress. Can't wait to see pics!

I've seen the tannic swamps, and they have their own kind of beauty. I'm looking to do something more like the places I grew up around near Mobile. So of them were a bit tannic, but many had mixtures of silty bottoms mixed with sand, so they weren't so tannic. But the fish were the same variations of fish you mentioned, but the aquatic life also included large mouth bass, pickerel, bowfins (we called them Grennel) and the occasional alligator. I'm hope to achieve something like that. But while I'm trying for reasonable fidelity to the environment, I'm not going to get hard core about it. The primary purpose of this tank is to be beautiful. Trying to emulate the swamps that I grew up in just adds some challenge.

Advice? Wow. Here's a shot:

1) Don't do separated sand/substrate tank. Mine's gonna be a bear to make it look like I originally intended.
2) Don't plan on bass if you plan on any kind of sunfish (bream) too. Pick one or the other.
3) If you pick a type of sunfish, don't use bluegills - they get too big.
4) Have a grow-out tank if you can, for you may find that like myself, you get a lot of plants that you want to see how they work out before you commit to using them by putting them in the aquascape.
5) Plan on a high light tank, but not tropical.
6) Plan on keeping the tank a bit cooler. Most NA natives don't like water quite as warm as the more popular tropical species that everyone uses.
7) Give some thought to how you are going to fight algae, since most of the cleaner fish/inverts used in this hobby don't really belong in such a tank.
8) Don't assume that cypress is going to sink. Check first, it could be incredible buoyant, and and require slate or something attached to the bottom.​
Well - hope that helps. I can't wait to see pics Mahlon!

Oh yeah! If you find any nice hydrocotyles I'd be forever in your debt if you'd send me a few!


----------



## Tino

scolley said:


> but the aquatic life also included large mouth bass, pickerel, bowfins (we called them Grennel) and the occasional alligator. I'm hope to achieve something like that.


 :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

Sorry, Steve, could not get over the alligator part.. :icon_bigg


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## ja__

what about making "path" a glosso "path"?


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## fedge

Up in a lake in northern wisconsin about 60 miles form duluth, mn. It was an area that was frequented by swimmers and boats so very virgin growth in comparison to more "grown in areas"


----------



## Mahlon

Thanks for the info Skolley. I'll keep my eyes open next time I down there. The sandy/silt bottom sounds better than our Mississippi mud -- disgusting muck more like it. I dont' think there's any way to imitate it effectively.

Mahlon


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## Steven_Chong

ja__ said:


> what about making "path" a glosso "path"?



Sounds like a great idea!

But first he should take some glosso and plant it in a real cypress forest in a nice shallow place where it can properly infest and suffocate the natives . . . and then when it conquers the area in a couple months, he can say that the biotope will be accurate. :hihi: 

jk :wink:


----------



## scolley

greenmiddlefinger said:


> But first he should take some glosso and plant it in a real cypress forest in a nice shallow place where it can properly infest and suffocate the natives . . . and then when it conquers the area in a couple months, he can say that the biotope will be accurate. :hihi:


Funny, sad, and true. All at the same time.

Oh, and BTW, plants are growing great. BGA is on the run (haven't seen any back yet... fingers crossed), and the dust on the glass is finally diminishing, but now I've got thread algae kicking in. And I mean growing fast. I suspect it is due to my foolishly putting some more seachem root tabs in last week, not burying some far enough, and now kicking up too much iron into the water column.

Hopefully a bit of time, manual removal, and frequent water changes and we'll be past this soon.

For the curious, I'm still tweaking my autodosing, which takes time and frequent testing until complete. So my ferts aren't exactly where I want them, but I assume they are ok:

CO2 - 33 ppm +/- 7
N - 15
P - 1.6
K - 25?
pH - 6.6
kH - 4.75
gH - 6


----------



## scolley

I've got a thread algae problem that is driving me nuts. What a kick. The BGA has remained gone, and the dust on the glass has really improved. So I must be doing something right. But I'm losing my patience with this thread stuff.

Got a good bit of plants now, am aggressively removing dead and old leaves, but still it persists. I'm sure it won't do a bit of good, but I've got some glass shrimp on the way. I got the "authentic" variety, not the misc. small clear shrimp like they sell at Drs F&S. They might improve things just by the act of grazing, and getting dead stuff loosened up and off the leaves.

I dunno. But I do know that I've got zero cleaning crew of any variety, and some algae that is making me nuts.

I'm right on the edge of ordering some American/Florida Flagfish (Jordanella floridae). I've read all the cautions...

1) nippy on long finned fish
2) cull the males, use only females
3) feed them so they won't eat the plants, and they still might eat the plants

So I'm hesitant. I'll give it another week...


----------



## scolley

*Pics*

I guess if I'm gonna publicly belly-ache about my algae, I may as well give something back... So here's a few pics. They are click-able, which will pull up a larger version. In the larger ones you can see the algae. :angryfire 

But nobody said it was going to be easy.

Amazingly, if you stand back a bit, like in this shot, you can't see the algae. :hihi: 


Here's one of the three dollar sunfish. Hoping for 2 or 3 more soon.


Just a shot of the tank


See the big belly on the gar? I've shifted to a feeding every two weeks, and then he gets a two day pig out. This is a couple of days past his last pig out.


I've read everything I can about thread algae, and flag fish. But if anyone has any good advice about either, I'm all ears. Thanks.


----------



## Steven_Chong

Oh you know the hydrocotyles are growing on you (literally and figuratively!) :tongue: 

I'm loving th econtrast between red left and green right and left short right tall. very nice.

BTW-- don't know nothing about flag fish, sorry. But, I was thinking maybe you could use Mollies? I have no idea if they inhabit the area you're working with, but I've heard they're not bad at algae control.

edit-- oh, a nice idea just hit me. to get evenmore contrast, why don't you try filling the empty part of the foreground (beneath the lotus) with light pebbles instead of hair grass or other plants. They're easy enough to remove later if you don't like them. Though, I have no idea if there are such pebbles in the area you're working with.


----------



## unirdna

Very nice photos.

I'm liking the tank right now more than any other time, Steve. Maybe because I'm such a 'naturalist'. And...uh....that gar is growing . Remember, for all the pains thread algae may cause you, at least it isn't staghorn or bba.

By the way, is your substrate as thin as it looks (front/center)?


----------



## Betowess

I love this tank. I scrolled back and looked again at post #142 (?) with the full tank shots and now at this again. Frameless tanks like this are real works of art, even more so having been hand crafted by its keeper. 

The colors of the Ludwegia is terrific. Is it peruensis? And the hydrocotyle looks so graceful. That is Hydrocotyle, right? I'm a newbie here... Anyways, that algae will go away soon and a stunning tank it will be, as it already is. roud:


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## Happy Camper

Hi Scolley

In the picture above 'three dollar sunfish', you have a plant at the bottom left with green golden leaves, I have exactly the same plant but have'nt Id'd it yet. Would you be som kind as to tell me what it is? Many thanks indeed.

PS, I like your tank BTW  roud: 

Kind Regards
Cameron


----------



## Pseud

Steve, your tank is so beautiful. Definitely be proud of your efforts. One can tell how much attention you've paid to detail, and the reward you deserve is evidenced. Really enjoy pic #3 too! Nice work Steve.


----------



## scolley

Thanks folks!

*greenmiddlefinger * - Those hydrocotyles ARE growing on me. I'm gonna _hate _ to lose them! No Mollies in the target area I'm afraid - some types of killifish though... No pebbles either. Thanks for the suggestions though.

*unirdna* - Yeah, it is pretty thin in the front, especially the front middle. I don't know if I posted my side view diagrams of my original layout plans, but I laid down the substrate so that in the middle of the tank, running left to right, was a "hill" of substrate. The idea was for it to be low where the sand was in front, and low were the sand was in back. But not in the middle. So the "path" was actually a gentle slope that you couldn't see the back side of. I wanted a path that was at an angle, and disappeared over a rise, evidenced beyond the rise only by the cut in the plants. Still may be able to pull that off. Not sure.

And yeah, the gar is growing. Think I should back off on the food? He goes 10-14 days hungry now, then a 2 day pig out. Should I back off on the pig out? Just make that a decent meal instead?

And BTW - the tank was always supposed to look "natural". It's just taking time for things to grow in and fuzzy up that "planned" look.

*Betowess* - there are Ludwigia repens, Ludwigia palustris (from SueNH!), and some freshly planted Ludwigia glandulosa. People have real trouble with L. glandulosa, so I'm trying to enjoy it now before it croaks.

*Cameron * - What you are looking at is probably garden variety Ludwigia repens - a wonderful plant when it's growing well. Go take a gander at Marc's old tank to see some stunning examples. But if the one you are looking at has narrower leaves, you could be looking at the Ludwigia palustris, which I'm really starting to like. Narrower leaves than the repens, and not as red in my tank, but has more of a reddish copper color that I really like.

*Pseud * - Thanks pal! Now if I could just get rid of that algae!

And BTW - I'm still wondering if my algae problem may be caused by my plants not growing vigorously enough. And my macro's are pretty much abundant, so based on some feedback from Wö£fëñxXx, I'm doubling my micros. Though that still will only bring me to a total of 18ml a week. We'll see if that helps.


----------



## Hop

scolley: Things are looking great. You may have answered this already, but I'm pretty tired and might fall asleep, head crashing on the keyboard if I searched the 33 pages... What camera are you using? Seems to have a good balance, detail and white balance... I'm trying to find a decent camera for tank shots that is less than an arm and a leg


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## scolley

Hop said:


> I'm trying to find a decent camera for tank shots that is less than an arm and a leg


Then I've got your camera pal - Canon Powershot A95. Takes decent pics, and you can probably pick one up for a whole lot less than $300. I haven't looked in a while... maybe less than $200.

I'm been through several "midrange" digitals, and just got a lot of crap pictures until I noticed a photographer friend, at a wedding (as a guest, not as a photographer) snapping pics with one of these. I asked him why - it looked a bit heavy. He said "Heavy and kinda confusing functions, but it takes a lot of pictures that you actually decide to keep. And that's the real test - right?"

I couldn't agree more. Great little camera for the money IMO.


----------



## Hop

Interesting. My personal camera is a sony Cyber-shot DSC-p52, a dinasaur, but does good outside, family-type pictures. My work camera is a Canon Powershot A300. Maybe I should bring it home and give it a whirl. Never really played with the settings. Just thought of it as a PHD (push here dummy) camera!

Thanks!


----------



## stcyrwm

scolley said:


> I've read everything I can about thread algae, and flag fish. But if anyone has any good advice about either, I'm all ears. Thanks.


Funny thing about my flag fish is they arrived just after I got rid of almost all my hair algae :icon_bigg . I ended up waging scorched earth on my hair algae. Got rid of riccia, java moss and rotala indica which was their base camp. Did all the other things heavily planted, EI etc and it has never seriously come back. 

Part of that process was ordering plants and 4 flag fish hitchhiked in on one of those orders. I did see them eat what little hair algae was left. They seem like the gentlest fish you could have. I've never seen them be even the least aggressive with each other or any other fish. I have 2 males and 2 females. They did attack my Hemianthius callictroides but I've never seen them touch anything else. I don't really conclude anything from this except that different folks seem to have _really_ different experiences with these guys. I'm sure you've read about their aggressiveness. 

If you do decide to order them you might want to check out "aquaticculturestore.com". It's a neat little place in Florida specailizing in native critters. They are least expensive online fish place I've ever dealt with. I ordered Bluefin Killies from them and was very happy dealing with them.


----------



## scolley

Thanks stcyrwm. It's clear that different people have different experiences with these fish, and it seems to range from "peaceful" to "holy terrors".

But it's good to know exactly where your "good" fish came from. That vendor collects fish locally, so maybe the have a strain that is not so aggressive, with fish or plants. If I get any, I'll get the fish from them. Thanks!


----------



## Georgiadawgger

Steve, the tank looks great and is progressing very well. I can't really see the algae you're talking about since the growth is so nice on the Ludwigia and your lotus. Is it hair or bba?? (haven't read older posts sorry). 

I like the sunfish you've put in there...have you thought about some Florida Flag Fish too--somewhat native/aquacultured fish.


----------



## scolley

It's green thread 'dawgger. Thin strands, sometimes several inches long. Rubs off really easy, but it's getting kind of aggressive. Even attaching to healthy new growth.

If you click on the sunfish pic, to open the larger picture, you should see it pretty clearly on the giant hairgrass. Some of that hair grass still has brown algae on it from 6 weeks or so ago. That has pretty much disappeared. But I haven't clipped every affected leaf off yet as that would pretty much decimate the giant hairgrass.

So now the only problem algae is the thread stuff, that you can see on the hairgrass. Oh, yeah, it loves the dwarf hairgrass too.

But FWIW, my dad want to Auburn, as did a number of lovely women whose acquaintances I still remember fondly. :wink: I saw that cutie you were with in your picture... brought back some great memories of beautiful Auburn belles! So, if you've got advice, I'm happy to take it. Just be aware that you could be helping the _enemy_.


----------



## Georgiadawgger

scolley said:


> It's green thread 'dawgger. Thin strands, sometimes several inches long. Rubs off really easy, but it's getting kind of aggressive. Even attaching to healthy new growth.
> 
> If you click on the sunfish pic, to open the larger picture, you should see it pretty clearly on the giant hairgrass. Some of that hair grass still has brown algae on it from 6 weeks or so ago. That has pretty much disappeared. But I haven't clipped every affected leaf off yet as that would pretty much decimate the giant hairgrass.
> 
> So now the only problem algae is the thread stuff, that you can see on the hairgrass. Oh, yeah, it loves the dwarf hairgrass too.
> 
> But FWIW, my dad want to Auburn, as did a number of lovely women whose acquaintances I still remember fondly. :wink: I saw that cutie you were with in your picture... brought back some great memories of beautiful Auburn belles! So, if you've got advice, I'm happy to take it. Just be aware that you could be helping the _enemy_.


I suppose you've sniped and pruned as much as possible? Ah, you know how to get rid of it. Of course FFF are known to eat the stuff...but we still need to attack the root cause. 

Ah, Auburn. I don't know, I guess I'm a real lucky dude with the woman. We still have our biggest fights in November when the teams play (especially after last year's HIT...made her cry about how dirty "her" team plays). I suppose its a great thing when our only real fights are the result of trash talking about football  The crazy thing is her dad was a punter for The Bear at Alabama and she wanted to to to Auburn to get away (from Tuscaloosa). And, her first words as a baby was "fooball". I ended up there since I got a free ride to do my doctorate. How we met? Destiny and true love I say. (I'm such a sap)


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> *unirdna*And yeah, the gar is growing. Think I should back off on the food? He goes 10-14 days hungry now, then a 2 day pig out. Should I back off on the pig out? Just make that a decent meal instead?


That's completely up to you, Steve. Gar don't shred up tanks much, so I really don't think that is an issue. Your only real concern should be how long you want to keep him. Those thanksgiving dinners might only give him a year (or less) residence in that fine home.

Here's some easy reading. Taken from "Fishes of Wisconsin" by George Becker. My fish bible.



Fishes of Wisconsin said:


> Growth rate of the longnose gar during its first
> year of life is rapid. In aquariums Echelle and Riggs
> (1972) noted an average growth of 3.2 mm per day. In
> Portage Lake, Michigan, the estimated growth was
> 2.33 mm per day (Hubbs 1921); in Lake Mendota,
> Wisconsin, 1.5 mm per day (Haase 1969).
> In Missouri 20 young-of-year raised experimentally
> for 52 days grew at the rate of 2.95 mm and 0.72 g
> per day (Netsch and Witt 1962). Their gross metabolic
> efficiency during this time was 43.1% and their food
> conversion factor was 2.34. Young-of-year longnose
> gars ate an average of 9.1% of their body weight per
> day, and digestion was completed at the end of 24
> hours. Gar activity, or more appropriately inactivity,
> is probably the major factor contributing to the low
> food conversion factor. Throughout the experiments
> the gars were extremely inactive and made few un-
> necessary movements; even their method of feeding
> was one of apparent leisure. These factors contribute
> to their rapid growth, up to 6 times faster than that
> of other common large freshwater fishes.
> Niemuth et al. (1959b) reported young-of-year
> 248-353 mm (9.8-13.9 in) long in early September in
> several Wisconsin lakes. Haase (1969) noted that
> young-of-year reach a maximum TL of 460 mm
> (18.1 in).


----------



## scolley

Thanks Ted...

I'm not so sure I'm over feeding him. I'm concerned about the opposite. It was approximately 5" long when I got him almost 55 days ago. It is just a hair over 5.5" long now. That's approximately 1/2" growth in a period of time your reference indicates he should have picked up 6" or more.

If I assume he will continue this _rate _ of growth (10% body length every 55 days), and as skinny as he is, he should be able to stay in the tank until he's maybe least 13-14" long. At the current rate, that's more than a year and a half from now. I'll hate to see it go, but at that point it will undoubtedly be thinking that my fish look a bit like lunch.


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## unirdna

My mistake, Steve. He looked to have grown more than a mere .5 inches. Sounds like you have his feeding amount homed in perfectly. The fish in the study were, of course, given unlimited food. At that growthrate, you're sure to have him for more than a year. roud:


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## scolley

unirdna said:


> He looked to have grown more than a mere .5 inches.


I've got an advantage Ted. He likes to lay on the sand in front, doing one of those nap/stupor things. So while you're trying to eyeball it, with no good frame of reference, I'm whipping out the ruler and getting a good measurement while he's snoozing. roud:


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## scolley

Been a big day in a lot of ways for the tank...

1) I took Wö£fëñxXx's advice and doubled my micros (mentioned that earlier) and the tank EXPLODED with pearling. It was insane. So, I guess I've been underdosing my micros, to put it mildly. :icon_redf 

2) But I killed one of my dollar sunfish... fed it a couple of bottom feeder shrimp pellets, that it inhaled and promptly died. :icon_frow 

3) Did I say my tank EXPLODED with pearling? Well, something else EXPLODED too - the thread algae! I've got 4" strands of the crap hanging off the glass. Geez, I can't win for losing! Make the plants happy... make the algae happier! So in frustration I placed an order for some flag fish. Got a few arriving in a couple of days. Thanks stcyrwm!​
And I can't help but keep laughing over 'dawgers girl's dad, whose head must have started spinning like Linda Blair's in *The Exorcist *  when she announced she was going to _Auburn_! :hihi:


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> Did I say my tank EXPLODED with pearling? Well, something else EXPLODED too - the thread algae! I've got 4" strands of the crap hanging off the glass. Geez, I can't win for losing! Make the plants happy... make the algae happier! So in frustration I placed an order for some flag fish. Got a few arriving in a couple of days.


I just noticed this same phenomenom in my tank. Upped micros dosing, watched thread algae grow. I never had it in the tank until now. And yes, like you, my plants also are doing wonderfully as a result. Thread algea only grows in one spot though, and is easily removed once a week. Amanos like picking through it too. Still, I'd feel a whole lot better if I was TRYING to grow it . Its so nice and green....kinda pretty actually  .


----------



## scolley

*EXPLODING EVERYTHING*
Thanks for the feedback Ted. But as it turns out, I got all the proof I needed today. It is absolutely the micros, and to make it worse, it's the Flourish.

I had mentioned earlier that I put in some root tabs, and then the thread algae started the next day. Well going over my records, I see that the day before I first noticed the thread algae, I also switched from my TMG (I was out) to Flourish. And thats when it started.

The growth of the thread algae today was unbelievable. Second day of increased micros, second day of explosive algae growth. No coincidence there I'm sure.

But my plant growth was explosive too - very visible growth between one day and the next. Even plants that were stagnating (like the older stalks of giant hairgrass) started growing. Much of the hairgrass is now growing 4-6 inches a day!

The plants are loving the micros. I hate to cut them back. But I can't live like this. It'll take over my tank.


*IT'S IN THE WATER COLUMN*
As I've mentioned before, this stuff is only growing where there is significant water flow. Slower moving water - no algae. Strong current - long flowing algae. So it's definately thriving off the ferts in the water. 


*MAYBE IT'S THE IRON*
Though I cannot measure a bit of iron in my water (I hate Fe test kits!), I'm really wondering about excess iron. Here's why...

1) This started when I switched from TMG to Flourish. One important difference between the two is that Flourish has 4.5 times the iron as TMG.
2) I just learned today something I did not know about Seachem ferts (Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium), they have significant amounts of iron in them! At least they do according to Fertilator - check it out. But Seachem's bottles say nothing about it.
3) Thread algae on glass can be an indicator of excess iron.


*ACTIONS*
1) Get off the Seachem stuff, eliminate that extra iron. Now's the time to switch to dry.
2) Cut the micros off until I get this under control, and slowly ease back into them.
3) Wait for the flag fish to arrive.
4) As always, manually remove as much algae as possible.
5) But no water changes. I've had it with extra water changes! The algae and plants will just have to suck that excess out. I'm not doing it.

Boy, what a hassle.


----------



## shuks

Scolly, I have the exact same problem. Once I upped the micros, the thread algy went nuts. It grows a couple inch per day. It only really grows where there is strong watter current, it doesnt grow where there is not very much watter movement. 

On another plant forum I read that thread algy was due to accesive iron. I only got the thread algy when I upped the micros and dosed extra iron. Im leaning toward the conclution that too much iron, or micros leads to thread and green spot algy. Im cutting dow on the amount of micros I dose, and I wont dose any extra iron at all. I'll report what happens the the thread algy.



> Cut the micros off until I get this under control, and slowly ease back into them.


 you couldn't have said it better...


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## Betowess

Steve, FWIW, I once had very bad glass stringy (dust) algae problems with flourish myself. When I switched to very low dosing and then later to Plantex CSM+b, I eventually won that battle on my little 26 bowfront. Now, I rarely use the stuff, every once in a while on a whim. bob


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## scolley

Thanks Bob, Shuks. My problem is my plants are clearly nuts for the stuff too. So once I can get off the Seachem ferts out of the system, with its covert iron supply (dosed KNO3, KH2PO4 and K2SO4 for the first time yesterday!), and get some fish that will nibble a bit of stray algae before it gets out of control, then I'll slowly start adding it back.

If it remains a problem, I'll dump the Flourish and go back to what worked but produced no thread algae - Tropica Master Grow (TMG).

But given that I know the algae came with the switch to Flourish, and is compounded with increased dosages of it (still small though). Maybe I should just switch back to TMG now! Just not use it until I get through with the algae remediation steps above.

I think I will.


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## Laith

I currently dose 8ml of Flourish and 3ml of Flourish Fe every day in a 200l (175l effective volume) tank. This gives me a total of .3mg/l of Fe dosed every day...

I've never noticed algae linked to the Flourish dosing and the plants love it.

I'd say the problem is elsewhere... CO2?


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## scolley

Thanks for asking Laith, but it is absolutely not CO2. With a recently 2-point calibrated SMS 122 reading between 6.5 & 6.6, and a kH of 4.75 confirmed by two different test kits, it's not CO2. (Yes... I could write a few paragraphs on how I know it's 4.75 vs. 4 or 5, as most kits show, but that's another subject.)

I've shut my micro dosing pump off, and when the tank burns through the micros in it (taking 2-3 days?), I guarantee you there will be no more hair algae growing. It began immediately after I switched from TMG to Flourish, and it exploded immediately and consistently when I had the temerity to go from 1.25 ml / day to 2.5 ml per day.

We KNOW that excess micros cause problems. And we KNOW that every tank has a unique uptake rate for the various macros. So why isn't an excepted axiom that every tank will have different uptake rates on micros too? Which could explain why you can dose micros at a level that I can't.

As I mentioned two posts prior, I think I was providing way too much iron with the Flourish. But IMO the plants themselves responded so well because I was under-dosing micros in general. But not under-dosing iron - Seachem was apparently sneaking it in abundantly, unknown to me, in their Nitrate, Phosphate, and Potassium products.

I've switched to dry ferts, so that problem's gone. I've not changed my targets, so short of my messing up dosing calculations there should be no change there. But I'm letting the Flourish burn itself out of my tank, and once the thread algae stops growing, I'll resume dosing micros with the new TMG I ordered today. And you watch. I'll wager that thread algae will go, and stay gone.

Let's see. I could be wrong... but I don't think so.

(Oh, just in case I am wrong about the Flourish, Potassium is a candidate for inspection too)


----------



## Betowess

Laith said:


> I currently dose 8ml of Flourish and 3ml of Flourish Fe every day in a 200l (175l effective volume) tank. This gives me a total of .3mg/l of Fe dosed every day...
> 
> I've never noticed algae linked to the Flourish dosing and the plants love it.


Yeah, I haven't had any problems with Flourish Fe myself. I use it every week. My past problem with glass/thread algae was primarily with the flourish traces. But I suspect my nitrates (and possibly the P04) were too high at that time. bob


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## scolley

I've had som kind PMs agreeing with Laith, suggesting the answer is with CO2, not that my current amount of low 30's to low 40's is bad per se. But rather that the answer is to have _even more_.

I'm uncomfortable with that until I find out if Flourish or iron is the problem. Having to have high CO2 to keep a tank algae free just seems to be masking more fundamental problems. So Laith, you're getting agreement out there, but I'm gonna stay the course a few days to see if I can get to the bottom of the underlying cause of the algae before resorting to blasting CO2 as my answer. It _should _ be high enough now.


----------



## Laith

scolley said:


> I've had som kind PMs agreeing with Laith, suggesting the answer is with CO2, not that my current amount of low 30's to low 40's is bad per se. But rather that the answer is to have _even more_.
> 
> ...before resorting to blasting CO2 as my answer. It _should _ be high enough now.


I know what you're saying but...

I always thought I had enough CO2 in my tanks. I'd measure pH (using a combination of pH meters and liquid test kits) and then I'd measure KH (with several kits) and the charts and formula told me I had around 40mg/l.

But I wasn't getting that much pearling, even when I put some riccia in. And I had light outbreaks of BBA and thread algae. All my other nutrient levels I knew were good because I make sure there is an excess (EI method).

So I started slowly increasing CO2 injection. And the pearling increased... plant health and growth increased...algae stopped growing... Re-did all the tests and the charts told me I had around a 100mg/l of CO2. So in theory all my fish (and a pair of discus and amano shrimp) should have been dead. I kept slowly raising it and at about 160mg/l (according to the charts) I started seeing some signs of stress from fish. I now have it down to what the charts say is 100mg/l.

I've recalibrated three different models of pH meters and used several liquid pH test kits for each test. The same for the KH measurements. The tests and charts/formulas tell me that all my fish and shrimps should be dead.

There was a post recently (I don't remember where) that suggested that some waters give strange KH reading which don't really reflect the carbonate component (I think that's what it was). So the actual carbonate based KH was a lot lower that the test was showing. The KH of my tanks is 15 according to my KH tests.

Just a thought!


----------



## scolley

That's a good point Laith... that I could be testing like crazy, and calculating CO2 concentrations that are for some strange reason just wrong. I do have a bit of evidence that might support such an idea...

My CO2 cylinder is only a 5lb unit. I got it 16 months ago - 13 months on my 20g, and now almost three months on my 75g. And the pressure gauge has not dropped a bit. Some I'm still working that same little CO2 tank, and it's not even showing pressure signs of running low. I don't seem to be consuming CO2 to quickly, that's for sure.

But my plants pearl reasonably well now, which should be an indicator of adequate CO2. As I mentioned earlier though, the addition of Flourish initiated pearling insanity, providing evidence that what ever was missing, it wasn't the CO2.

But I understand your point. And if this current path doesn't prove it was the Flourish (and/or iron) and straighten things out, I'll be bumping up the CO2.

The only other thing I will probably do, before increasing CO2, if this current path does not work, is add more K2SO4. Now that I've switched to dry ferts, I can use some of the abundant dosing knowledge here for dry dosing potassium that was not available when using Seachem Potassium. There was a bit more guesswork when using Seachem. So I'd like to eliminate that as a possibility too, before I crank the CO2.

Thanks for the feedback. I expect the answers will make themselves known very soon. roud:


----------



## scolley

*Another jumper! The gar is just not gonna work...*

Had another jumper last nite... the best looking, and most social of the Dollar Sunfish. Since this was another night time jump, when fish are supposed to be a bit less active, I'm definately chalking it up to the gar. While there is no remote way that thing could swallow a fish that size, it was stalking the Dollar Sunfish in distress the other night as it was dying.

So, I started with four Dollar Sunfish right at a month ago. 

1 Jumped real soon
1 Died eating pellet food
1 Jumped last nite​
Not a good record. And 50% of it is due to the gar. In just under a month. In a covered tank this would be no big deal. That gar is way to small to eat these fish. But in an open tank (with no rim at that) his attempts are driving me out of fish.

I really enjoyed it, but it's not going to work in an open tank. :icon_frow 

Anybody want a gar? I'll pay shipping. Really... send me a PM if you are interested.


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## PJAN

Hello Scolly,

Regarding the CO2 : I use 5 lb in less than 3 months ( 90 gallon tank). Waterturbulence is low, no big losses anywhere.
After 2 months I can see the pressure dropping and it will hold normaly - an extra 3 weeks or so. My tank is stable and I can almost predict when the the tank is asking for CO2 ( "same time as usual - ploink noise" ).
Water parameters : pH6,5 and KH 4.

So.....strange to read that your CO2 cylinder is still full.....

Further :
What a strange reaction to the different fertilizers.
I also think it's wise to use dry ferts for N and P.

Your targets should be with KNO3 and KH2PO4 :
0,5 - 1,0 mg/l PO4
10 - 15 mg NO3

With TMG you should use 1/2 dosis pro week for a start.

Extra dosing of K2SO4 is not necessary, as TMG + K ( from KNO3 and KH2PO4) is providing enough Kalium.

One remark extra :
Good thing that you use some fast growing plants....
But when your updating your pics I always see a nice trimmed Ludwigia etc.
It's never a jungle till the watersurface. I still think the tank has not matured yet and is disturbed to many times. 
Best advice here I can give is to let things grow. Grow a jungle for a few weeks. I always do, just to get things in balance. Do'n touch the bottom, gravel, don't clean the filter, just let things happen. And keep the ferts. CO2 in balance.

And keep the wood in mind.... as a potential trouble maker. If you're absolutely sure that the CO2 and ferts are in balance and algae are still present... shift your focus on the wood. I too had severe troubles in the past, caused by wood...after removing the piece ( beautifull piece and I loved it) the troubles went away within two weeks..

Good luck ! Still an awsome tank.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## Georgiadawgger

Have you weighed your cylinder? I hope something isn't wrong with your pressure gauge...16 months is a long time for a 5lb tank!!


----------



## scolley

I quickly found a wonderful home for the Gar. Thanks for the PMs!

But I'm not sure what to say about the CO2. It could be a 10 lb cylinder, but I think it's a 5. I had to get the company I got it from to look around for a small one. Top of the neck (not including regulator, which isnt' really the tank) to the bottom is only 14" high.

And it's still pumping out CO2, I can see the bubbles in the bubble counter. And I can watch the SMS 122's pH reading creep up, and then the bubbles start, and the pH goes back down. Bottom line - things seem to be working. But I've got a CO2 test kit buried somewhere. I'll dig it out tomorrow and see if it tests the same ppm as I think I have.

All the plants are still pearling, but not massively like when I was still adding Flourish. But the thread algae has not abated yet. Many strands are growing 6" in an afternoon. It's crazy.

PJAN, I could write an essay in response to your comments. Thanks! roud: But I'll try to be brief... the wood may be a problem. The big stump that I love some much is absolutely covered in algae - hair and dust. But the Cypress knee, the smaller one, has very little algae on it. And if I take a toothbrush to scrape the algae off the stump, it will all be back within 48 hours. Is that an indicator?

So you think I should stop trimming? OK. Good advice. Thanks.

But your fert advice is consistent with what you've said in the past. And it is consistent with levels that I've kept in the past. But I'm getting tons of advice from people here to crank the ferts way beyond what you are suggesting. Gonna have to think about that, too much conflicting advice.

Will get back to you with details on that later. Thanks!


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> All the plants are still pearling, but not massively like when I was still adding Flourish. But the thread algae has not abated yet. Many strands are growing 6" in an afternoon. It's crazy.
> 
> PJAN, I could write an essay in response to your comments. Thanks! roud: But I'll try to be brief... the wood may be a problem. The big stump that I love some much is absolutely covered in algae - hair and dust. But the Cypress knee, the smaller one, has very little algae on it. And if I take a toothbrush to scrape the algae off the stump, it will all be back within 48 hours. Is that an indicator?
> 
> So you think I should stop trimming? OK. Good advice. Thanks.
> 
> But your fert advice is consistent with what you've said in the past. And it is consistent with levels that I've kept in the past. But I'm getting tons of advice from people here to crank the ferts way beyond what you are suggesting. Gonna have to think about that, too much conflicting advice.
> 
> Will get back to you with details on that later. Thanks!


Well, you will have to take any advice with a grain of salt.
Common sense is the key-word here.
Problem is that every tank is an unique piece of nature. I know tanks with 4 ppm PO4 with no problems. So is 4 ppm PO4 the right way?
Also you cannot rely on advice because you don't know if they are measuring correct.....

Key is light, CO2 and ferts. You cannot see these parameters apart from each other. I spent over an year to understand waht-why-how to get a healthy tank within 6 weeks...
As you know, I change my aquascape almost very two months... 

So, common sens says :
1 -2 ppm PO4 is enough
10 -15 ppm NO3 is enough
30 ppm is enough
with 3-3-3 ( low-high-low)
to get good and healthy growth.
Even if the testkit(s) are 30% off ( and often they do )!

Pearling :
Also massive pearling is not per definition a good sign. It says just the O2-production cannot solve quickly enough. Result is visible bubles.
Plants will pearl even if the circumstances are not ideal. This means with enough CO2 and light they will pearl even if there are necessary micro-elements missing.
Main thing to focus here is healthy plant growth and no algea. If there is some pearling, than that's a nice "visible" bonus.

The wood :
It's rather strange if the left piece of wood is covered with algea very fast and other piece(s) are not. Normally this means that the wood is not ok and decaying a little bit, releasing organic substances. Which can trigger algea and feed algae.

If you're confident that the ferts ( CO2, P,N, micros ) are available and algae are still growing strong... reconsider the wood as possible cause for triggering algae.

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

*Stop the presses! Steve screws up again!*



scolley said:


> Thanks for asking Laith, but it is absolutely not CO2. With a recently 2-point calibrated SMS 122 reading between 6.5 & 6.6, and a kH of 4.75 confirmed by two different test kits, it's not CO2.


Did I say that? Uh oh... :icon_redf 

It wasn't adding up, the CO2 I mean. So I pulled the CO2 probe for a calibration, even though I did one about 4 weeks ago (I usually go 6). And it was off by 0.2 - reading too low! Well, I thought, there's a _real _ problem. So I did a 2 point calibration, and got it all set up real nice. But I wasn't comfortable with it being so far off after maintenance just 4 weeks ago... it is about end of life, maybe over that. So I pulled out my unused spare, sitting around for just this contingency. I calibrate it, and decide to use it instead.

So I plug it into the in-line manifold, and turn on the water flow, and what does it read? 7.0!!! It should have been reading 6.6 or 6.5!

So I whip out a fresh pH test kit (also held in reserve for just such an emergency), pop the wrapping off and take a reading. 7.0!!! In an environment that I thought was between 6.5 and 6.6! Wow!

OK. Can you see the egg on my face? It's there. Believe me.

And please, I'm happy to take all the "I told you so"s. I have it coming. But you are going to have to take a number and wait in line. :wink: 

I don't understand why I was able to calibrate that probe, and it still give such bad readings. Maybe they get really wacky at end of life. But I've learned my lesson. No more el-cheapo on the expensive probes. I'm replacing the darn thing every 9 months come heck or high water.

So time will tell if this was my issue. But quite frankly, with my CO2 as low as this implies, I'm kinda proud I could grow anything at all!

So much for high tech! :hihi:


----------



## PJAN

scolley said:


> And please, I'm happy to take all the "I told you so"s. I have it coming. But you are going to have to take a number and wait in line. :wink:


I've got number 136. 

:icon_bigg 


Still, recheck also your NO3, PO4.

And no trimming, disturbing and if the algae are not backing of in two weeks, the wood might be decaying.

So, jump to stage 4 please.
( My predictions :
1 building a tank
2 look at me 
3 oh boy algae
4 look at me again )

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

PJAN said:


> So, jump to stage 4 please.
> ( My predictions :
> 1 building a tank
> 2 look at me
> 3 oh boy algae
> 4 look at me again )


From the absolute pearling insanity in my tank today, and what looked like low (or no) growth of the aggressive hair algae, your stage 4 may not be too far away PJAN. Boy I hope so...

And all from a goofy worn out pH probe!

I can't know for certain of course. One day does not imply a full turnaround. But the change was dramatic, and I suspect, a predictor of things to come. :wink:


----------



## John P.

Steve,

I never went with a PH probe for this reason. It seems a good needle valve is more accurate than the PH probes in keeping the CO2 up where it need to be.

I hope you found your problem!

John


----------



## Betowess

Steve, 
I have a pHep 4 (Hanna brand) handheld. I really do like it and recommend them over the Milwaukee handheld, which I sent back because it leaked etc. The Hanna handheld meter rarely measures exactly as my Milwaukee probe which came with the pH controler setup. They are close, but usually a tenth or 2 tenths (or more) of a degree off each other. Sometimes right on and sometimes off a bit. And that after calibrating each in fresh 7.01 buffer. 

I can get different readings from the Hanna, Milwaukee, and AP Pharmaceutical pH testtube kit, but never too far apart.

Also, some folks say a two part calibration is not as accurate as a single 7.0 buffer calibration. That has been my experience too, FWIW. bob


----------



## PJAN

I can add one remark according pH-probes :

Overhere the water is very soft with low conductivity. Tapwater is like GH4 pH7,6 KH3 and 170 uS conductivity.

I had false pH readings by the normal probe and Hanna handheld. They worked fine in water with higher conductivity.
Seems rather strange so I contacted several people and it turned out that in water with low conductivity ( < 250 uS) the probes were not good for the job. To find out this problem... I took me 4 weeks....

So I ended up with a probe used in the medical sector, rather expensive but suitable for water with very low uS.
The result was : right pH measurements and after 7 months still calibrated ( every month 4.0 and 7.0 buffer was exact, no need for calibration).
It costed me about 120 USdollars though...

Gr. PJAN


----------



## scolley

Yeah, I know that there are two schools of thought on using pH controllers, and there is some risk with a controller. So I'll not go down that potentially long "controller vs. needle valve" debate here except to say I have red/green color vision problems so I hate most pH test kits, the needle valve on my Milwaukee is crap... and I'm afraid that when my tank decides to dump, it will do it when I'm off on one of my multi-week business trips, so I will not have seen the tell-tale drop in pressure, because I missed a few weekly maintenance routines.

So I accept the risk. I'll just have to replace probes a bit more frequently.

I'm intrigued by PJAN's conductivity problem though. My tap water is pH 6.9-7.2, KH2.5 and GH3, so I may be in that trouble area too.


----------



## scolley

*Brief update...*

The thread algae war is going well. Every day is an improvement over the past. Projecting based on current progress though, it will still be a couple of weeks (at best) before any victory is declared. I'm taking it sloooww.

I got some flag fish in, really lovely fish. Mostly juveniles. I know they eat thread algae - I've watched them do it. But they will not win this war for me. That's like using a bucket to empty the ocean. But once the algae is under control, I'm sure their small nibbling will help keep it at bay.

While I now know that I had a CO2 problem, I'm not at all convinced that it was the only problem. So I'm letting my ferts settle in to levels in a range I'm personally comfortable with... N 10-12, P 0.8-1.2, and K targeted to the 20-25 range.

And some of my new leaves are growing in pale white, so I assume that to be due to my cutting off the micros 9 days ago. So I'm returning to the use of tiny amounts of TMG to hopefully fix that (1/4 ml / day). I'm not touching that flourish again until the thread algae is under control a bit better.

So, expect to hear more in a week or two. Right now I'm just trying to slowly and steadily win the war. Every day is a bit better. roud:


----------



## AlexPerez

Good to hear that things are geting better. 

And I just wanted to add that I had the same thing happen to me last weekend. I left for a few days and when I came back I had Hair and BBA algae growing all over my tank. My SM122 was reading like it always was but when I used my Handheld Hanna meter it said the ph was 1.2 points off. I tried re-calibrating the probe and it would calibrate at 7.0 but when I put it in the tank it still was wrong by at leat 1.0.  This is a pinpoint Probe less than 3 month old. 
It is very fustrating to have this happen.

Anyone want to buy a used SMS122 :icon_wink


----------



## Bert H

> I got some flag fish in, really lovely fish. Mostly juveniles. I know they eat thread algae - I've watched them do it. But they will not win this war for me. That's like using a bucket to empty the ocean.


 Steve, if it's this bad, this may have been mentioned before, but have you considered od'ing Excel for a couple of weeks? I am currently on my second week of 2x dosing to get a handle on some clado, and I can vouch for the fact that it works. Seachem apparently cannot make any claims about this, but there's enough evidence from people out there that it seems to be a fact.


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the tip Bert. It WAS that bad. Now it's not. Every day I pull out less and less. As little as four days ago I was pulling out big finger-sized gobs with a tooth brush. Today I think I'll be down to stuff that is too small to get with a toothbrush and have to rub it off manually. But if that residual stuff does not go away, I'll try the excel. roud: 

And sorry about your similar problem Alex... what a kick in the pants, huh? :icon_frow Even more a bummer that you probe died so soon. They are all supposed to last 9-18 months. You might think about asking for a refund on that probe.

I don't know what the performance envelope looks like when a probe goes bad. I was told by Milwuakee that they begin to respond more slowly to change. But if it just flat stops working worth a d*mn, then that would help explain why I went from _good _ to _deep trouble _ nearly overnight.


----------



## shuks

the thread algy in my tank has been gettin worse too scolly. I wrote a post about a week ago telling you about my thread algy problem because it seems we are going through the same thing. I stopped dosing CSM+B and extra iron, but the thread algy doesnt seem to care. Like you said, I'm pulling out handfulls of thread algy. My stem plants are compleatly entangled in the stuff. Im deffinitly loosing the battle. 

My c02 tank and equipment will be here in a couple weeks. I think once I get it, I will have to rip all of my plants out and start from scratch. Im thinking that the thread algy is thriving off too much light and not enough co2. 

On the up side, every other type of algy I've had is compleatly gon. I used to have a realy bad green spot algy problem, but now it's totaly gone. The damn thread algy is just too presistant and wont die.


----------



## scolley

shuks said:


> The damn thread algy is just too presistant and wont die.


Yeah, _persistent _ is definately the word. Every single day for me is better than the day before, in terms of volume anyway. But there are some places where it just keeps coming back. And even more unbelievable, there are plenty of new leaves that have it growing. For me, the consistent theme is light. The leaves of the higher reaching plants get it, and anything sticking out of the white sand gets it. So it's all about the light.

But I'm not cutting back on the light, because IMO, it's the light fueling the engine of growth that is slowly out competing the algae.




shuks said:


> I'm definitely loosing the battle.
> 
> My c02 tank and equipment will be here in a couple weeks. I think once I get it, I will have to rip all of my plants out and start from scratch. I'm thinking that the thread algy is thriving off too much light and not enough co2.


Maybe the CO2 will turn the tide for you shuks. It definately is for me. But again, it will be a week or two before I know for sure. I just wouldn't rip everything out until you give the CO2 a try for a month or so.


----------



## Betowess

Steve, do you add any Mg (Epsom salts) for your soft GH. And do you have any CC additives (sea shells, crushed coral or even baking soda) for the low KH. I wonder if you really crank the CO2 up and keep your KH up to 5 or 6 if that might help. Like 60 to 70 plus ppm CO2? Maybe not all at once... bob


----------



## scolley

Bob, every week after my 50% water change I usually have to add enough epsom salt to bring my GH up from 4.5 or to to 5.5 or 6. And I add enough baking soda to bring my KH up from 4.5 or 4 to 4.75.

I could crank it a bit higher, but I've come to believe the plants like it on the soft side, and with my pH at 6.4 or 6.5 (confirmed by test kits) my CO2 should be high enough. 

I'm not sure why I'm not willing to go into the 60-70 ppm space, but I am. Maybe it has something to do with my reticence to crank ferts up into the high numbers also. I dunno... I'd like to see it go away without resorting to that. And it's not like I'm not seeing progress. Quite the contrary, every day it get's better.

Thanks for the suggestion though.


----------



## standoyo

Hi steve,

nice job...i'm a big fan of biotope tanks and this really nice to see develop in one go...

good to hear you are winning battle with thread algae.
i have this problem in my weeping moss and the only way was throw clumps of it out. 
i found out co2 was high enough but manually removing them was better option other than making sure the no3, fe's, kh's were there.

just read in apc, high lighting is major contributor...

btw are your plants fizzing/pearling?


----------



## Buck

All I know is that there is a lot more talk here and a lot less photos... You will get there Steve roud:


----------



## matthewburk

I seem to remember that you had the 6 bulb T5 tek light fixture. That is a ton of light in my opinion. My tank is 90 gallons, 24 inches deep and I have the 4 light fixture, only have all 4 on for about 12 hours, just 2 for 6 hours and everything pearls like crazy under that light. I was worried that my glosso wouldn't grow, becuase I heard it needed pretty high light. It is growing great, so I think my light is sufficient. Too much light may be your biggest problem. Of course take everything I say with a huge grain of salt, I'm pretty new to this planted tank business


----------



## scolley

*Lighting Schedule...*

I've got a 6 tube Tek, but I never turn on more than four. I run the lights 8 and 1/2 hours a day. Two 54w tubes for the 4 and 1/2 hours, and four 54w tubes for the middle 4 hours. In the middle two hours everything pearls but the hair grass, and it takes about two hours of the the four bulb light really get the pearling going...

So thanks for the comment mathewburk - our tanks really aren't that much different... mine is 22" deep vs. your 24" and my tank really isn't a 75... it's more like an 80g. So bear in mine you are running 12 hours, with 6 4-tube hours. I'm running much less long, with only 4 4-tube hours.

IMO that 4 hours of 216w (2.8 well reflected T5 wpg) is probably more like 4 - 4.5 wpg from other fluorescents - which is a lot of light. But it's also what's stimulating the growth. All of these plants _like_ high light, so it's a tough decision.

Thanks for the suggestion on manual removal standoyo. It's a daily practice. That's how I know it's getting better. At one time, ever day I would come back and find more than the day before. Now every day I remove less and less, and have to work harder to find it. But I still do find new growth daily.

Buck is right about the photos... I'll have more up once I conquer the algae. I could post photos now, and it would look OK, because the algae is limited enough that you wouldn't see it in the photos. No, I'm hoping to hold off photos until my "Victory!" photos.

Except I'd love to put up some pics of my newly acquired flag fish. They are really beautiful, and so far, very well behaved. But they are also skittish, and spend all their time toward that back of the tank, and high-tail it to the weeds when anyone approaches the tank.


----------



## Steven_Chong

Hey Steve, it seems the judges for the AGA contest did appreciate your efforts and experiments. Congrats man.

BTW-- the next time anyone argues with you on whether something should or should not be biotope, tell them you win by default. :icon_bigg


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## Georgiadawgger

Nice work! GMF was right, they really appreciated the concept and the tank!! Well done! 

Just for $hits and giggles...for the other people who want to know...

"I love your concept. Even if you took a few liberties, I feel this tank would have faired better in the biotope class. And I agree, what's a cypress swamp without a gar? " ---Karen Randall

"I really enjoy the unique planting arrangement in this aquascape. The impression created is refreshing and original. The sand path going through the center of the aquarium could be offset to one side a little more. Also, it does not have to be so straight (make it curve toward the back) or it will look unnatural. Otherwise, great work! " ---Carlos Sanchez


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## scolley

Thanks guys! This outcome was what I expected, and I'm happy to see the little nudge to the biotope category. So next year I'm gunning for that category. I just didn't think if would be fair to the existing entrants if I entered that this year. Any possible award where some of the tank really should be held in question by reasonable metrics for authenticity, is no award at all. Don't want to try to win anything on a technicality.

I'm going through way too much pain on making, and keeping, this tank authentic to the target environment not to enter the biotope category.

So _AGA 2006 Biotope Category_... here I come! :wink:


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> I'm going through way too much pain on making, and keeping, this tank authentic to the target environment not to enter the biotope category.


Exactly!!

Can't you hear the voice, Steve..........[go the distance]


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## TheOtherGeoff

lookie what i found while browsing today.. http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2005.cgi?&Scale=514&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=9


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## Steven_Chong

Well, the judges made it glaringly obvious in the biotope contest that they cared more about presentation than complete accuracy.

I guess the judges are too narrow minded to make the the "artistic jump" to the "new aesthetic" concept of the anal-accurate biotope.

On one hand presentation is difficult to achieve, and tanks like this one should have a proper place to be displayed-- I just wish that we could expand the range of innovation that is appreciated in this art form.

If we keep latching on to the "traditional" ideas of the art form (which really don't have that much age), we'll never expand and let the world know more about us.

Well-- I'll be excited to see next year's effort Scolley :icon_bigg

Guess you'll have to get a new gar before then. :hihi:


----------



## scolley

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Guess you'll have to get a new gar before then. :hihi:


Yeah, I suppose so! But that's OK. Lucky for me, _and the gar_, that he's found an outstanding home! roud: I'll get a new juvenile when the time comes...

So now I've got 9 to 10 months to whip this tank into "true authentic" shape, and throw in a bit of cosmetic "intelligent design" to boot. That's a _much better _ time frame than I was dealing with before!

The judges have made it pretty clear that _pure accuracy _ is not their primary concern, so next year I won't have to feel guilty if I have a compromise or two. But by that time, I hope I won't need them.

I'm making good progress on the algae, though it's certainly not gone. I've got a laundry list of things to do that I'll not go into now. In the short term I've got a batch of Olive Nerite snails (true to the biotope) coming in next week. And it's worth mentioning that I bought a whole passle of ghost shrimp that I put in one evening last week. The next morning the sunfish weren't even hungry... for the first time ever. And the shrimp were gone! What happened? :hihi: 

I guess the snails and and flag fish will be the clean up crew... but I'm really, really, really tempted to get a crawfish or two.

Thanks for the encouragement folks. I'm planning on going the distance. But that's not new... it's always been the plan. It's a bit like building the tank in the first place. You just gotta stick with it. roud: 

No if I could just turn the corner on that algae!


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## John P.

Steve, what's your CO2 level at? I'd pump it up even more. I was having GSA big time, and raised my CO2 higher than it's ever been ... and now it's abated. 

That, of course, and all the other nutrients.


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## Betowess

roud: Wow, those looked terrific Steve! roud: Way to go! bob


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## Safado

scolley said:


> I guess the snails and and flag fish will be the clean up crew... but I'm really, really, really tempted to get a crawfish or two.


I think that is a great idea, unless you are contemplating a return of Mr Piggy....Actually, I bet the Gar wouldn't mind a little crawdad on the menu. There are plenty of species you can choose from, which are found in Cyprus swamps.


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## BlueRam

The NANFA guy gave away a few "dwarf crayfish" that should be native to your parts... I should follow up on that. 

Talk: Tom Watson
Species: Cambarellus Shuffeldtii



Safado said:


> I think that is a great idea, unless you are contemplating a return of Mr Piggy....Actually, I bet the Gar wouldn't mind a little crawdad on the menu. There are plenty of species you can choose from, which are found in Cyprus swamps.


----------



## scolley

*If you are looking for pics... come back in a few weeks!*

Sorry folks, just words here until I get past the algae...



BlueRam said:


> The NANFA guy gave away a few "dwarf crayfish" that should be native to your parts... I should follow up on that.
> 
> Talk: Tom Watson
> Species: Cambarellus Shuffeldtii


Yeah, I was thinking about those. Who's keeping those, was that you Blueram? IBN? Can't remember... But either way I gather they only get 1.5 inches long, and I'd definately have to find a way to secure adults. Juveniles would be a lovely dinner for the sunfish. And possibly the adult C. Shuffeldtii. I guess should experiment first with a full grown amano from my other tank. They are about 1.5". :icon_frow

Thanks for the suggestion. I am certainly afraid of something large that will devastate the plants!


*Safadao * - Thanks, yes, lot's of species to choose from, even blue ones, which would look cool! But I am afraid of plant destruction, which is why temptation has not manifest itself as ownership yet.


*Bob* - Thanks for the comp. Now if I can just get it looking that good again!


*John P.* - My CO2 should be typically be swinging between a low of 33 ppm and a high 53 ppm. This is based on the assumption that my SMS 122 swings that pH between a high of 6.6 and a low of 6.4 (most of the time on 6.5), with a KH of 4.75.

This is a new, recently calibrated pH probe. And I have 2 CO2 test kits. One agrees with the probe. I have another kit that reads consistently 0.2 higher. So if the probe and first test kit are wrong, and the other test kit right, my worst case CO2 is swinging between 21 and 33 ppm. But I really don't think that worse case is right, as my plants pearl every day like crazy, and if I don't keep my surface moving a bit by the flow from the lily pipes, I get a CO2 slick on the surface real quickly.

And I have two KH kits that both give a 4.75 reading. I get 4.75 by testing with twice the recommended sample size, and then dividing the total number of drops by 2. At the 4.5 mark the blue fluid turns green, and bright yellow a 5.0, so I'm assuming it is actually between 4.5 and 5.0, or 4.75.

So assuming the tank CO2 is indeed swinging between 33 and 53, averaging in the low 40's, I'm not sure I want to raise it. The algae growth is really at a perfect speed... it slow enough that I can easily keep ahead of it with manual removal, but fast enough that I can see a difference from day to day.

I my mind this gives me a great opportunity to find the root cause. Low CO2 is not the root cause, but higher CO2 it is a potential "algecide"... a way to get rid of it. I'd rather slowly tweak my ferts until the algae doesn't want to grow anymore. At the moment I'm testing macro's daily with multiple kits (for kit accuracy confirmation), and dosing daily to hold my NPK around 12, 1.0, and 20 ppm respectively. This level and ratio has worked for me in the past, and I'm using it as I experiment with my micros, to see what effect micros has on the algae.

Once I get my micros set correctly, if the algae is still around, I'll look at raising some of these macro levels.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

Scolley i can tell you from experiance that crayfish wouldnt be the best thing for you to have in a planted tank. I used to keep them in my 55 with the bluegill and bullheads ( ones too big to eat atleast ) and i had a 10 gallon with about 7 of them in there. they love to eat vegetable matter. the ten gallon ones were fed spinach and cumcumber etc etc and the one or two that managed to live in the 55 would eat plants that i would put in there and whatever else they could find. plus they dig..ALOT. they always had a corner shallowed out to sit in and defened themselves. i would just hate to see them ruin or tear up that wonderful scape you have going.


----------



## scolley

TheOtherGeoff said:


> Scolley i can tell you from experience that crayfish wouldn't be the best thing for you to have in a planted tank....
> 
> the one or two that managed to live in the 55 would eat plants that i would put in there and whatever else they could find. plus they dig..ALOT.


Thanks for sharing your first-hand experience.

Yea, that's a pretty common complaint. But apparently the dwarf cray's are not a problem. And I was also wondering if maybe I could locate just a single small one, that the damage would not be too great.

Native freshwater shrimp are all to small. What I need is something to eat the poop. And crawfish will apparently. So it kind of boils down to the question - will a small crawfish's value in dealing with the excrement be overshadowed by the tendency to eat and/or dig up plants?

It's a bit like the algae problem right now. If I had ottos and amano's, I'd have no algae to speak of. But I've got to try to clear these problems up with natives to the habitat before I start making compromises.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

yeah im not sure how the dwarfs would act in a tank like that. i would still be concrned with them as they are a omnivour and have no problem eating anything. if you could keep the dwarfs in there without much hassle to the plants and the sunfish not eating them i think it would be neat. they are fun to watch. the ones in my 10 gallon were like little tanks. climbing over everything or pushing stuff in their way down. then they would fight with each other for a second or two and move on. Their tank was pretty neat. it was a biotope of a local creek by my house. rock piles, and sticks and a brick right in the center. that was fun cause the dominate one would stand ontop of the brick. didnt want the holes in it, but wanted the top. some of the others would stay in the holes and try to challange the dominate for the brick top. was very entertaining to watch.


----------



## scolley

*Pics... but not pretty, no victory yet*

I said I wasn't going to post pics until I could declare victory, but I keep looking at the post count on this silly thread keep climbing, and I feel awful. :icon_frow Like you're looking for something exciting, and ole Stevo's just not comin' through. Sorry. I'm trying, but this thread algae is persistent.

Well this won't change anything. Other than maybe sharing my misery, and providing you guys a pic or two.

I had to do a _major _ trimming yesterday. I've been letting things grow wild. But that in itself was causing problems. The plants on the right hand side of the tank were completely covering the surface, and leaves below were getting brown spot algae from the lack of light. So I ripped out what had to be be a few pounds of plants. The various forms of ludwigia on the left however, were barely trimmed at all. Here's how it looks now.



















I was doing great until midweek last week, thread algae getting better daily. The tank seemed to be responding well to the alternating day dose of TMG, only 2/3 ml, so I dosed two days in a row. BANG! Hair algae explosion.

So I'm backing off of the TMG. In a few days I resume, but with maybe 1/4 ml twice a week. Here is a pic, not to well focused, but up close that really tells the story... thread algae and all.









I broke down an bought a few ottos to help. I'll remove them later. The flag fish are darn near worthless. They eat the long stuff that is flowing in the current. But the short stuff that jumps from leaf to leaf they don't appear to mess with. I'm hoping the ottos might help that. I cannot spend 30 minutes a day, day in and day out, just to keep ahead of this mess.

I'm holding my fert to N 12 ppm (+/- 2), P 1.1 ppm (+/- 0.2) and K estimated to be around 22 ppm. 

My CO2 I've covered in detail in prior posts. And I know someone is going to jump in and say "crank up those ferts!". But I'm not buying it. This hobby did fine for years before the recent trend of blowing NPK ppm's through the roof. These ferts should be enough. I'm testing every day, and dosing as required to keep these levels set. Enough should be enough.

Maybe the light schedule is too high. I dunno. I do know that for the 3 hours a day that the 2 bulb switches to 4 bulbs, things start pearling like crazy. Not insane, but quite solid pearling IMO.

Got some Olive Nerites arriving next week, along with some dwarf crayfish. So that ought to be fun anyway! :wink:


----------



## Steven_Chong

I think IBN was raising the shudfelti's. I'd love to hear his opinion on them because they seem fascinating to me too.


----------



## lumpyfunk

Thanks for the pics steve!! Keep them coming. I hope you have a nightmare thread algae pic to post with your victory photos.


----------



## awrieger

I've been having thread algae problems too. Interestingly, like you experienced controlling it before adding more TMG, the same happened with me. I stopped dosing ferts completely for a week before setting up my new tanks and the thread algae started dying back.

Quite the opposite of the rampant growth from before (inches per day!). Not just not growing as fast, but actually dying back. Something in the ferts feeds it irrespective of the NO3O4 levels. Something it needs to thrive. Iron, like everyone says? Overdosing *all* micros, or just one? I don't know!


----------



## scolley

*Steven * - Thanks for the tip on IBN. I had used the search function like crazy to find that thread. But I was using the words crawfish and crayfish. He's just called it cray, and I wasn't finding it. Thanks.


*Lumpy * - Are you kidding? Did you look at that pic of the Dollar sunfish? The thread algae is on _almost everything _ in the background. I will admit it was worse, but I was in too much shock and terror to take pics of the big long threads. Sorry.


*awrieger * - I'm still experimenting with it. I'm holding my macros to a real firm level, testing and/or dosing my daily, verifying with backup test kits. But I've knocked the micro's back to 0.5 ML twice a week. So far, the results of that are frustrating. My new growth gets pale on some plants, and the colors diminish on others. But the hair algae backs off. Then I dose the micros (tiny dose) and the color comes back to everything, I get visible new growth, and the threads start creeping back. Or so it seems I'm confirming that today, first day in 3 days for any micros. So I'm going to be watching the results _real, real _ closely.

On a more the positive note I'm really, really happy with the colors that are starting to show on my L. glandulosa. And the tank has a few new inhabitants:

_6 dwarf crawfish_ - which disappeared into the weeds within moments of being put in the tank, and may never be seen again. The big Dollar sunfish really, really wanted to eat them. And bit a couple. But each time it took a claw to the lip, let go, fumed about it a moment, and went looking for a less aggressive one. I may never see one of these again though... they are just too small, and will be motivated to hide.

_10 olive nerite snails_ - I got them from Wilma here. They were very well priced IMO, she shipped inexpensively, on-time, sent the snails in impeccable shipping containers, and was a true pleasure to deal with! Check out her site... I'll be a repeat customer for sure.

As for the snails, they're eating algae off my stump, and generally tooling around the tank. But they do move slow. Maybe I should have gotten 50 instead of 10!​
Both the crays and the snails are native to the habitat, so I feel good about the acquisitions. roud: 


*More new stuff*
I've also got some more new tank inhabitants coming, that I'm _really, really _ excited about. But I'll leave that as a surprise. They are set to arrive next week. :bounce:


----------



## Jerm

andyg said:


> Great start Steve. It'll look amazing when the plants fill in.
> Happy to see your dream come to life.
> Andy


when it fills in?!? it looks amazing now!


----------



## Buck

I am finding just the opposite with the micro's Steve. I have been battling algae for some time now and upping my micros has helped tremendously. :icon_roll 
Its a tough game keeping a tank balanced and there is NO correct and true answer . Lookin good man, the algae will be beat some day!


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## scolley

*Damned if you do... damed if you don't!*

Common sense would seem to dictate that micros must be added to a planted tank. I can certainly attest that when I go without micros for a few days in my tank, new growth begins to pale and colors diminish. 

But I also have to look at a few real obvious facts:
1) My first unmistakably visible (within hours) explosion of thread algae occurred right after I switched from TMG to Flourish. I would rule that a likely "iron" issue, except I foolishly changed the dosage at the same time.
2) Week before last, encouraged by the visible benefits of periodic, limited, micro dosing of TMG, I dosed two days in a row, and the thread algae visibly exploded again.
3) This week I kept micros limited (1/2 ml TMG) to three days between doses, but on the second dose, the thread algae growth visibly accelerated within just a few hours. You can see in the pictures below, thread algae that had not existed just a few hours prior. I scrub virtually every leaf in the tank every night. The leaves in the picture were absolutely clear of visible threads a few hours earlier. It exploded. Even the glass had big threads growing!


















*It is definately the micros, even small amounts.*

Unfortunately it is just as clear that my plants flourish with the addition on of the micros... faster growth, healthy leaves, richer color. I'm caught between a rock and a hard place. :icon_frow There are clearly things in the micros that they need, but something that is enough of an excess that it is not getting used up fast enough, and the algae kicks in.

So I'm adjusting in a few ways to get beyond this hump:
1) I've got a bunch of Amano's on the ways. They may get eaten by my sunfish, but I've got to try. And I'll have to eventually get them out of the tank for it to be true to the biotope. Maybe I'll have a lot of Amano's for sale later on.
2) I'm throttling down to 0.25 ml doses of TMG... practically no dose at all it would seem.
3) I'm super slowly increasing my NPK ppms. Creeping them up slowly, over small daily measurement/dosing routines, so that my current levels of N-12, P-1.1, K-22 (est), will increast to N-18, P-2.0, and K-30 over the next 10 days or so.
4) Bump my CO2 up just a hair. It's reasonably high now. How I know is covered in previous posts. And if that weren't enough, when I stick my arm in the water, it sounds like somebody opened a tonic bottle with all the bubbles outgassing. But I'll go just a shade more.​
And as always, I'll continue my daily scrubbing of every leaf, and pruning those things that look too far gone for cleaning.

And BTW - Thanks for the kind words Jerm, and the encouragement Buck! :wink:


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## m.lemay

I'm sure you talked about your lighting here in this monstrous thread somewhere. How is your lighting schedule setup? You might simply want to back off on lighting a little bit. It worked wonders on my tank. FWIW.


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## Betowess

Yeah, that is my guess too, regarding a bit much light, Steve. Have you tried a three to five day blackout yet? That got rid of all my "green" algae when I was battling a persistent red algae. The black out didn't really affect the red (just slowed it down) and I chose to loose that battle and finally did a re-start with new substrate. Now I'm truly glad I did, though it was a royal PITA at the time. Good luck. bob


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## PJAN

Hey Scolly,

I was thinking... for a week or so and even checked my books ( notes from the good old algae days).
I had these algae in the past. And allways when I used wood to.
It's still very strange to see such a fast growing effect on algae grwoth by the use of a little bit more TMG. 

The ferts ( PO4 and NO3) seems high enough....
The lights ( 3- 3- 3 or so ) is not that much. You could consider to drop the high-light period next weeks.

But my "feeling" says that the wood might be the trigger... ( in combination with some extra iron). I'm always very carefull with wood. It could be decaying a little bit and relasing extra organic stuff, which can trigger algae growth.
Stupid enough, the wood can be ok the first weeks and suddenly it can start decaying when the top-layer is enough eaten by the bacteria.

My tank has somewhat the same parameters ( PO2 at 0.5 / 1.0 NO3 at 10 and dosing full micro's ( !!) some extra Iron ( !!) , CO2 at 30 mg/l) with no algae growth at all.
Only difference : I have very little wood with no algae growth on it. Still hard as a rock.

I am one beleiver that algae growth must be triggered by some elements like NH4 or products formed due to decaying. After all, in my tank for example, all paremeters ( PO4/NO3 etc) are high enough to feed algae. Nothing is missing..except a trigger.
In a healthy fast growing tank these trigger elements are used/ absorbed by the plants or these elements are not formed in the first place.

So, I'm placing money on the wood....

Gr. PJAN


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## unirdna

Good observations, Steve. I'm currently working through a very similar scenario in my 46g. My dosing regime is a bit different. I cranked up the P to 3ppm (nitrate is at 15ppm). My limiting factor IS micros - Flourish actually. I'm not dosing them at all. When/if plants show signs of needing (and I mean NEEDING) micros, I will dose 1mL each day, until I see improvement. As soon as I see improvement, I will not dose again until signs repeat.

Look forward to the results of your own experiment.

Ted


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## awrieger

Interesting, PJAN!

My own infestation began in the Willow Moss attached to guess what - a piece of wood. No sign whatsoever of this type of algae for the first few months and then whammo, a plague out of nowhere without changing dosages or anything. So perhaps the wood did indeed reach that critical 'decaying' point.

That's the best theory I've heard yet so far. I've been having difficulty accepting it's caused by iron or high micros, because I've been dosing Fe at 0.2 and plenty of micros all along and never had a problem before. But now it's rampant. And I never introduced any new plants as carriers since original setup so it must have been there all along, dormant, just waiting for a trigger as you say. The only thing that could discount your theory is if someone else claims they've experienced thread algae without any wood in their tank.

Gosh, and I've just added a huge piece of driftwood to my new tank. What have I done?! I'll never get rid of this thread stuff now!


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## scolley

Wow! I'm overwhelmed by the responses! Thanks for the help folks! And I'm not sure if I'm comforted (as in "misery loves company") that other people are having similar problems, or if I'm sorry that it's happening to some of you guys too. I think I'm leaning to the latter. It's a crappy problem for anyone to have...

Marcel brought up a very fair question, and it can't be answered simply. So I've put up a table that I hope explains where I think I am with light. It's a well reflected T5, so that complicates any WPG discussion. I've used BlueRam's excellent T5 multiplier so that this can be viewed in familiar T12 equivalence. But I believe BlueRam's multiplier _does not _ account for the massively increased difference a well reflected T5 is able to direct into the tank vs. that of a well reflected T12. And as far as I can tell, that difference is very large. I think I've used a very reasonable factor of 1.25, and it might be too small. The results of how much light I think I have is reflected at the bottom of the table, in a few different possible ways of looking at it.










IMO I've got an 8.5 hour photoperiod, averaging 3.3 wpg, peaking at just over 4 wpg. Possibly too much light when you have an algae problem. But definately not "excessive" in a normal high light tank IMO.

But if the remediation activities I mentioned in my prior post don't work, I'll back off on the duration of the 4-bulb photoperiod too.

The weird thing that I think is very important about the light question, I can observe the algae just when the lights turn on (that's when I feed the fish), and then return when the "Noon" 4-bulb period starts. At that time, on many, many days, I've been able to observe algae growth that has occurred during this 3.5 hour low light period. That indicates at least that if there is too much light, it is not the only problem, because the stuff grows in low light too.

Here's a quick shot I snapped of the tank, just to show that it's not the end of the world for this tank or anything. It's just a very, very persistent problem that I've got to work through. And yes, I know many of the stems look leggy. I have to rip off the old algae covered leaves, but I'm avoiding trimming and replanting like the plague.










PJAN has brought up the wood to me before in PM's. I think he is making a really strong point. My only fear is that he could be right. Because the slate anchors under that driftwood would mean tearing up the entire tank to remove them. And then there goes my "cypress forest" biotope too. :icon_frow 

But I'm afraid the algae on the wood is extremely evident, even in this picture. The stump is all green, except for the "trails" you can see where some of my new olive nerite snails grazed over it.

But that's OK. This is just a hobby, and this is just another problem that has to be worked through. roud:


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## m.lemay

Your light doesn't seem excessive. I'm certainly running more light than you. I run :
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]

these are all actual wattage of PC lights with AH reflectors....definitely more efficient than T-12s.

Pjan might be onto something with the driftwood.


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## Betowess

Yeah, 8.5 hours with only four lamps is not too much, IMO. I usually run my Tek with all four lamps for at least ~ 6.5 to 7 hours and total time is about 11.5, with the lamps about 5 inches from the water. I do keep the 2.5 hr. siesta going just to enjoy at night.

So maybe its not the light. I thought you might be running all six T5s at the same time. Still, you might consider trying a blackout before you yank that cool cyprus. Pjan's right about a trigger. I experienced a complete change when I yanked my corrupted Eco-complete, knockin' on the wood-hard... I just yanked about 1/2 of the tank's plants out and put a bunch of different Ludwigias and crypts and R. wallachii in. Your tank was definitely part of the inspiration of that move. Also ordered some L. aromatica and E. stellata from Lowcoaster. Pjan's tank sparked the interest in L. aromatica. So, FWIW, your tank has been an inspiration for me...bob


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## shuks

I've finnaly come to the conclution that my mopani wood is triggering my thread algy. For some reason the algy LOVES the mopani wood. Every kind-of algy you can name grows on the wood but nowhere else. This leads me to believe that the wood is triggering my thread algy problems. 

I stopped dosing micros, and cut the macro dosage in half, but the thread algy doesnt seem to care. I'm going to take out the wood in the morning and see what happins. I'll post the results in a week or so...

on a lighter note, your tank looks beautifull scolly! BIG improvement from earlyer pictures. Everything looks much more natural and filled in really nicley. I'm impressed...


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## scolley

Thanks folks. I'd feel better about people liking the tank if I didn't have this algae problem, but it's nice of you to say so anyway. Thanks. :icon_bigg 

And I'm glad you agree about the lights. Frankly, since the algae grows even in low light, if I might not be providing enough light... holding back the vigerous growth that can help stem the tide. And thanks Bob on the blackout idea. That is a last resort option, if I can't beat it back "naturally".

I took another algae fighting step today that I haven't even posted about. I didn't want to say it, because like removing the wood, I really, really didn't want to do it...

_I cut down ALL of the giant hairgrass._

I didn't rip it up, just cut it back to the substrate. From my pictures you can see that it is a major attractor of the hair algae. And unlike the leaves of the other plants, it just does not want to clean off manually.

And the flagfish spend all their time cleaning hair algae off the giant hairgrass. I could use a bit of help with the Ludwigia sp.! Maybe they'll have to shift their eating to other plants now that their favorite snack bar is gone.

Hopefully the giant hairgrass will all grow back. :icon_frow I really do want to keep it as my background. But I can't keep in there the way it is, as an algae breeding ground. I hope this helps.

And lemme know what happens with the wood Shuks. Good luck.


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## Momotaro

The root system for the Giant Hairgrass is intact, so the plant should rebound quite nicely. Thicker perhaps!

Steve, I am being lazy, how are you injecting CO2?

Mike


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## scolley

Momotaro said:


> The root system for the Giant Hairgrass is intact, so the plant should rebound quite nicely. Thicker perhaps!


That's what I was hoping!

I've got your basic Hoftiezer in-line reactor, with pressurized CO2 coming from an Milwaukee reg and an SMS 122 controlling the solenoid. I had trouble with my pH probe a while ago, so it's been replaced with a new one, and have confirmed the pH with 2 different test kits. One kit, which disagrees with the controller, shows my pH as 0.2 higher than the other kit and my recently calibrated new pH probe show. And I've tested my KH with two kits also, both of which agree that I'm holding at 4.75. So if my probe, and one CO2 test kit, are right my pH averages around 6.5. If the other kit is right, it averages 6.7.

So it's probably averaging in the low 40's, but if the other kit is right, it's possible that I'm only averaging in the high 20's. But I thing that high reading kit is wrong.

I don't bump it up higher because my SMS 122 shows me swinging between 6.6 and 6.4. And if it is indeed right, that's bringing me to a peak of 55 ppm, and that is as far as I want to go.


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## scolley

*New Fish - less algae?*

*New Fish*
Got my new fish a few days ago - 8 Rainbow darters (Etheostoma caeruleum)! But on the very first night I lost two, leaping out of the tank. I have a circular flow in the tank (across the length of the top, down a side, and along the length of the bottom) that they love swimming into. They are bottom dwellers and would follow the bottom current right into the glass side. Bump, bump, bump... until they finally figured out not to do that. But some discovered the flow coming down the side, and would "dart" up the side. Well, two darted right out. But no more losses since the first night. roud: 


*Less Algae*
The dust algae on the glass is almost gone. As is the thread algae on the glass. But it keeps coming back to the plants. I'm not going to credit the Olive nerite snails for the glass, as I hardly ever see them, except for hanging on the stump, which is now almost scrubbed clean.

I'm slowly, slowly inching up macros, but micros are not being put in the tank at all. My one squirt of 1/4 ml last week was followed small thread algae bloom. So I'm off the micros completely now.

And I've absolutely had it with spending 30 minutes a day manually removing hair algae. Can I repeat myself here? With feeling? Good. _I've had it_! _No more algae removal_! There is only so much of my life I can give up to sticking my arm in the tank. I stopped the daily algae removal session four days ago. And to my shock, it's not so bad!

I figured it would take over the tank. But it hasn't. So, if it doesn't get any worse over the next few days, I'm going to assume it's hit some kind of equilibrium. If so, my conclusions would be:

1) Darters  - can't be them, they don't eat it, and their waste should have only made things worse, if anything.
2) Olive nerite snails  - maybe removing the algae covering the log (deep and thick!) somehow helped?
3) Plant stress  - maybe my daily leaf scrubbing actually hurt the plants worse than the thin threads of algae?
4) No Micros  - possibly my real culprit for encouraging the stuff. Not the root cause, but a significant aggravation.​

*Odds and Ends*
I know there is a lot of thought about the wood causing the algae. But the more I research, the more I think there are two other possible contributors - lack of light, and excess silicates. 

Sand - Granted lots of people have silica sand in their tanks, but it can contribute to some types of algae problems. Once everything else is ruled out, this is a possible avenue - sand removal.

Light - And given that I've determined that this thread algae grows even under low light, I'm wondering if I might be encouraging algae with too little light... some algae flourish if there is not enough light, and plants suffer. So more light may seem counter intuitive, but it might help.

Pics - I'll try to get some darter pics soon.


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## John P.

Hi Steve,

Glad things are are a little better. I still think you might consider upping the CO2. It's really not a band aid. And it works! I made the decision to use it to combat algae, and I don't think it's a cop out at all. I, too, decided that the aquarium should be enjoyable and not a 30-minute daily ritual just to make it look semi-presentable. I remember the old days well--twirling the toothbrush full of thread algae. 

I also ditched all my stem plants, too. Low maintenance all the way!


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## scolley

Thanks John. But I just checked my CO2... it's at the peak of its cycle. pH 6.4, KH 5. That's mid to high 50's. My comfort level ends there. I know I could drive it through the roof, and _maybe_ improve things. But I'm looking for root cause here.

I love the "no-stem low-maintenance" philosophy. But going North American means stems to a great extent. Scary part is though, I'm doing very little maintenance that isn't algae removal. But I should be removing stems by the bucket full. Growth is slow.

I'm not sure if I need to attribute that to the algae, lack of micros, or lack of light. I suspect the latter, and may be bumping light up a bit soon.


----------



## Betowess

I like the more light idea. Let those plants really go and then they'll outcompete that algae. Then you might need to look at the micros and add some if the plants are really cranking out the new growth. Good luck.


----------



## Phil Edwards

PJAN said:


> Hey Scolly,
> 
> I was thinking... for a week or so and even checked my books ( notes from the good old algae days).
> I had these algae in the past. And allways when I used wood to.
> It's still very strange to see such a fast growing effect on algae grwoth by the use of a little bit more TMG.
> 
> The ferts ( PO4 and NO3) seems high enough....
> The lights ( 3- 3- 3 or so ) is not that much. You could consider to drop the high-light period next weeks.
> 
> But my "feeling" says that the wood might be the trigger... ( in combination with some extra iron). I'm always very carefull with wood. It could be decaying a little bit and relasing extra organic stuff, which can trigger algae growth.
> Stupid enough, the wood can be ok the first weeks and suddenly it can start decaying when the top-layer is enough eaten by the bacteria.
> 
> My tank has somewhat the same parameters ( PO2 at 0.5 / 1.0 NO3 at 10 and dosing full micro's ( !!) some extra Iron ( !!) , CO2 at 30 mg/l) with no algae growth at all.
> Only difference : I have very little wood with no algae growth on it. Still hard as a rock.
> 
> I am one beleiver that algae growth must be triggered by some elements like NH4 or products formed due to decaying. After all, in my tank for example, all paremeters ( PO4/NO3 etc) are high enough to feed algae. Nothing is missing..except a trigger.
> In a healthy fast growing tank these trigger elements are used/ absorbed by the plants or these elements are not formed in the first place.
> 
> So, I'm placing money on the wood....
> 
> Gr. PJAN


I agree 100% PJAN. I'm having a similar issue in one of my tanks right now and attribute it to the wood. It was out of the water for some time before I started this system up and was fine for the first two weeks or so. Now, however there is visible surficial decay and algae/fungi growing on it. At this same time I started getting a soft, brown filamentous algae on the wood and plants. The dosing hasn't changed a bit. 

On the NH4+ issue, I did a test this summer in some grow out tubs I had outside. For the first month I dosed them like a normal tank, NO3 etc and everything grew well. The second month I dosed with a commercial Ammonium/Urea based fertilizer and the algae showed up the very next day. That was enough evidence for me. 


*Steve,*

I think 10ppm NO3 is too little for your tank. Looking at the photos of your plants they seem to be slightly N deficient. The bright red color and legginess are both indicators of nitrogen deficiency. That would also explain your hair algae increase when traces are increased. Your plants should be able to take up even a large excess trace dose with proper macro levels. With the light they get and the more than sufficient CO2 macros would be the next thing on my list. 

Plants can't synthesize proteins and chlorophyll without N and without those to molecules they're not able to function at 100% capacity. Likewise with P. Phosphorous is used in large amounts in every single cell of each plant. Without it they can't build new cell membranes (phospholipid bilayers) and can't produce Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP), the molecule 99% of all living creatures use to power their metabolic processes. 

Yeah, your nutrient levels are ok based on the commonly accepted levels, but your light and CO2 are on the high side, both of which drive the plants faster than usual. I'm willing to bet that the high light period is pushing the plants to their nutritional limits. At that point they're using all of their energy to grow with no excess in their budget for dealing with chemicals in the water like NH4 or other byproducts of decay. 

I'm sure PJAN can expand on what I've said. It's going to be a few more years yet before I'll be able to take an aquatic plant physiology course. Heck, I was lucky to get general plant phys at my school. 

One more thing. Don't tear out your wood, it's great! If increasing N and P dosing doesn't work, try using a stiff brush to scrape off the outer and inner layers. An ancistrus plec wouldn't hurt either. Those things love to rasp on wood.

Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

*Thanks*
Thanks for the encouragement Bob.

And Phil... Wow! Thanks for the really well considered piece of advice!

It could well be the wood. But for me, tearing that out is a last resort. Due to how it's anchored, not only will it destroy the whole cypress forest image, it will as rip up most of the substrate. So I struggle (and hope!) to find other causes. Like macros...

My numbers have been real, real close to N-12, P-1.1, K-22 (est), until recently, when I starting inching them up. So if indeed I am starving NO3 (and you make a strong point) I'm planning on getting them to around to N-18, P-2.0, K-30 and then holding a bit to ensure stability. If that works OK, I'll have to see how the tank reacts to micros then.

*Pics*
They are pretty badly focused. But these darn fish move so much it's hard to get a good pic. But I figured I'd drop a few poor quality photo's up anyway... this is supposed to be a photo album... right?

A single rainbow darter








Doesn't look much like a rainbow huh? I wound up with 6 females and 2 males. The females are all dull brown. And the very first night, 2 jumped from the tank. One was obviously a male, bright blue and red markings. :icon_frow The other was too dull from drying out to tell. Maybe it was a male too, because I can't find anything but females... all brown. But then again, I can only find 5, so maybe a beautiful male is in there hiding somewhere.

A group shot of female darters









And one of the 4 flag fish








This one is fully grown, maybe 2.5". It is a definite fin nipper and plant ripper. Each morning I find new bits of dwarf hairgrass floating at the surface. And I've caught this one doing it, that and eating exposed plant roots, and nipping at the fins of any fish that will sit still as it comes by. The other ones don't do this. They are all smaller, and could be a different sex for all I know.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

Ah i miss my darters. i used to keep about 3 different kinds in a gallon gallon back in the day. they are a blast to watch. one of these days i will have them again..


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## stcyrwm

scolley said:


> *Thanks*
> They are all smaller, and could be a different sex for all I know.


Steve,

This is a male flag fish. The females have a pretty obvious spot on their dorsal fin.

Bill


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## scolley

*TheOtherGeoff * - yeah, the darters are cool fish. They have the whole tank to play in, but they prefer being right up front next to the glass. There are things going on in the room and they clearly want to watch. It's really quite funny. And they quickly figured out where the food comes from. Most fish don't catch on so quickly. But these ladies are already quite excited to see me each morning, and I don't think is due to my dashing good looks. :wink: 

And I'm in the process of ordering a few males, since it appears mine all jumped out of the tank the 1st night. I suppose I'll put a covering over the tank on the side they jumped out for the first few days... at least until they figure out not to follow the current out of the tank!


*Bill * - Thanks for the tip on the flag fish dorsal spot. I knew it was a spot somewhere, but I wasn't sure if it might be the big lateral spot some of them have. Based on that, I've got 1 female and 3 males. Only the one in the picture is mature, so maybe the "bad behaviors" it engages in are manifest due to it's being fully adult. Or maybe the dominant male. Or possibly just from being a mature male. But one thing is certain, the juveniles are much "better behaved".


----------



## scolley

The smallest of updates here...

I mentioned a few measures to get the algae under control...

PLANNED CHANGES
1) Adding Amano shrimp
_Update _ - hasn't happened. Have had an order into Florida Driftwood in since 11/15/2005 and nothing has been shipped, and have received no communications from the vendor. You can draw your own conclusions...
2) Throttling down to 0.25 ml doses of TMG
_Update _ - I've eliminated micros instead. They were absolutely making the problem worse
3) Slowly increasing my NPK ppms from the old levels of N-12, P-1.1, K-22
_Update _ - Am up to N-15, P-1.8, and K around 30
4) Bump my CO2 up just a hair.
_Update _ - bumped up a tiny hair.​

UNPLANNED CHANGES
1) Increasing light.
_Update _ - I've upped the photo period from 8.5 to 9, by inserting an additional 6-bulb, 324 T5 watt, 30 minute period into the middle of the day.
2) No interference
_Update _ - I stopped my daily manual rubbing off of hair algae. Now I'm just letting it have it's way with the tank, for good or ill.​

RESULTS
1) Almost no dust algae on the glass
2) Significant reduction in hair algae. But not gone. New algae still attacking leaves every day. But DEFINATELY not as much.​

MY PLAN
1) Continue to watch and wait. Time will ultimately unravel this mystery. roud:​


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## shuks

well it's been about 2 weeks since I took the wood out of my aquarium. The thread algy still survives. The wood was not the cause!


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## Betowess

Steve, what kind of substrate is the white sand? If its from Caribsea, it might be suspect, IMO. Just what you need, another thread to include in your mystery novella.

I'm going to have to check out darters. I love my Bosemaniis. They are in perpetual motion.


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## scolley

Betowess said:


> Steve, what kind of substrate is the white sand?


Pure silica sand Bob, used in swimming pool filtration. And excess silica is sometimes implicated in some forms of algae, especially when combined with low light apparently.

If I don't win this battle soon, the sand will go... just in case.


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## shuks

I use silica sand meant for pool filtration also. I'm 95% sure it's harmless. Iv'e been using it in my tank before I started growing plants and it never caused any algy. It's when I fist planted and started dosing the algy came. it was bad at first, then my tank matured and I had almost none. I wanted to re-aquascape my tank, so I totaly replaced all the plants in there. Now I'm back at squar one with algy again.


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## Betowess

Maybe so. My corrupted Eco complete was suppose to be inert. Well it wasn't. Caused all kinds of problems with a tenacious red algae. Got rid of it and that algae has pretty much totally retreated except on the spraybar. It loves current. Just a thought Steve. Might be a pretty easy cure to take it out in steps. Not necessarily all at once. If it is a culprit, you'll notice the difference pretty fast. And if you lived closer, I've got about six bags of Eco sitting in my garage. They over shipped on the replacements, bless Caribsea.


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## scolley

*traveling*

Ever since I set this tank up, I have not been on one single business trip. For me that's really unusual. But as of today, I've been away from home for a week, and will not be returning until almost Christmas. I set the autodosers up and am letting the tank run on autopilot while I'm away. Though I do have one of my sons feeding the fish.

I have to admit I am curious what I'm gonna find when I return. I'm deliberately not asking my how the tank looks, because if it's bad, there's nothing I can do about it. So it will be a surprise.

And given the fact that I'm in the throws of my algae battle, there are a lot of possible outcomes. Which is nice... keeps the game interesting. 

I'll let you know.


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## shuks

Dont give up scoly, you'll eventually win the battle. I'm going through pretty much the exact same situation as you. I'm interested in your theory of pool filter sand causing the algy. I've noticed that I get BGA on the silica sand, but not on the fluorite; weird eh? So maybe that could be the problem. I'd like to know for sure that my silica, pool sand, is the cause of the algy before I throw away 100$ worth of substrate. Let me know what happens..


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## scolley

*Total change of plans.*

Well, I got back from my biz trip and the tank was a WRECK. I mean UNBELIEVABLE. This is a whole new experience for me, having a real embarrassment for a tank. It's BAD.

It is overrun with algae. And I've got no one to blame but myself. I went away with an algae problem, and before I left I didn't even have time to make sure my autodosers had enough ferts in their reservoirs. So it ran dry, and the result is really nasty. I'll try to post some pics.

I've been home a week now, and have not even done a water change, nor added any ferts. I took one look and decided that I'd been defeated, and that I'm ripping the whole scape out. So now I'm just watching the tank as a learning experience, and musing on what the next scape will be.

But I know a few things for sure...

1) The wood is coming out.
2) The sand is coming out. (BTW - shuks, BGA is very much associated with silica sand, but my problem is thread algae which has a _possible _relationship to silica sand)
3) I'm losing one of the filters - too much water flow.

So look for some pics soon. But this is my official throwing in of the towel. I know that the tank is nasty because of my letting the ferts run dry. But they weren't dry for more than a few days, and the mess it created in that period of time indicates a deeper problem than just a temporary lack of nutrients.

I think with my tank building I should have established myself as someone that does not easily concede defeat. But I'm also not stupid...

This is not working. It's time for a change.

More soon. Happy Holidays to all!:smile:


----------



## awrieger

What a shame, Steve! Well it sure was a nice tank while it lasted. I'm looking forward to seeing your next scape! 

Since the discussion on your thread here about thread algae, I've also decided to remove all wood from my tank too (except for a small piece an anubia is rooted to).


----------



## medicineman

Dont give up on re-scaping man! I know how it feels. My 260 gal tank #1 was also overrun by nasty thread algae and was eventually torn apart and the scaping start anew. Its tiring job but fun in the end. Spirit up! :thumbsup:


----------



## Betowess

medicineman said:


> Dont give up on re-scaping man! I know how it feels. My 260 gal tank #1 was also overrun by nasty thread algae and was eventually torn apart and the scaping start anew. Its tiring job but fun in the end. Spirit up! :thumbsup:


New plan plus new plants sounds like lots of new fun, especially when you do the posting! :thumbsup: Your AGA tank was a gem. Especially watching piggy chow that shrimp! bob


----------



## unirdna

I feel for you, Steve. I've never been that far down, but I've had my share of hard knocks. This is probably due to the fact that I lack your tenacity, and when something isn't working out, I usually quickly abandon it :hihi:. FWIW, I really enjoy this thread. By narrating the "bad" so thoroughly, you are helping the rest of us more than you may know. Good luck to you on the new scape. Good or bad, I look forward to it roud:.

Happy New Year (for us 'westerners').


----------



## Bert H

Steve, sorry to hear that man.  I remember a while back on apc, that Art had done a thread with a tank that looked like a cesspool of algae. Over time, he took it from looking like crap, to pretty darn good. (I searched for it over there to reference it here, but couldn't find it.) My point is, it can be 're-sucitated', if you're willing to be patient. 

Having said that, I would probably go the same route you have chosen, and just chalk it up to a learned experience. Looking forward to your pics and progression. BTW, happy new year!


----------



## scolley

*"The horror... "*

Thanks for the kind words folks. 

I just did the first water test in 3-4 weeks. Wow! Now keep in mind no ferts have gone into the tank in 1-2 weeks...

N - 22
P - 18
K - ?
pH - 6.4
KH - 5.75
GH - 7

Those are some interesting numbers considering the tank I left was...

N - 15
P - 18
K - ?
pH - 6.4 - 6.5
KH - 4.75
GH - 5.5 - 6

Conclusions...

1) Something is driving up KH/GH. But it took several weeks without a water change to be evident. Wonder what it is? 
2) My nutrients DID NOT bottom out, even though the auto ferts went dry. For the nitrogen I assume it is from natural waste, including the diet of bloodworms. But the phosphates are another story!
3) I assume the phosphates did not bottom out because the there was insufficient uptake... that the plants are just struggling to grow while covered with algae.:icon_sad: 

So it's time to fix the (assumed) problem - rip out the wood, dig out the sand. Removing the wood means ripping up the entire substrate because there are huge slabs of slate under substrate - holding down the floating cypress logs. Bummer.

Here are some pics. I'm reminded of Marlon Brando in Apocalypse Now whispering "the horror, the horror... "


The tank










L. glandulosa, trying hard, just not hard enough.










Nymphaea










L. repens, just not doing well










Lily pipe, demonstrating that this stuff really likes a nice water flow










Even the fast growing Hydrocotyle leucocephala (none native algae buster) had a hard time out competing this stuff










And this small little snail is an interesting side note! It's an Olive Nerite juvenile. Funny thing is, I bought only adults about 10 times this size. Wonder how that happened?










Thanks again for the kind words. It's gonna be a while before there is anything to look at now. Sorry. Time for lots of work. I figure maybe a month before I can get everything dug up and replanted.

Well... never a dull moment!


----------



## turtlehead

From far back the tank looks nice... I'm sorry to hear you are taking this down, hopefully algae doesn't turn up in your rescape. Keep it up.


----------



## AlexPerez

Sorry about the Tank scolley, It sucks to have such a hard time with algae.
I’ve been battling with algae since I setup my 75G and nothing I would do
was helping. I started taking Tom Barr’s advice on the things I listed below, 
and the tank just got better and better. I’m finally starting to see results after
6 month of fighting with the algae.

1. Tests Kit
I was using test kits to control ferts to much (using LaMotte kits). Now I
just dose EI for my tank size and adjust up or down depending on 
plant/algae growth. I still test every once in a while, just to see where 
things are at, but I will not adjust dosing based on the test kits. 

2. CO2 calculation using ph/kh table.
While this works for a lot of folks, I think its better to just crank the CO2,
Once the fish start getting stressed then back of a bit. There are too many 
variables that can throw the CO2 table off, so why bother with it. It does 
help in selecting a starting point. 

3. SMS122 controller. 
To much fluctuation of the CO2 with the Ph Controller. I have one but only 
use it to display Ph. Things got a lot better with the algae since I stopped 
using the controller. For folks that have a steady KH and use lower light 
amounts it probably works ok. 

4. To much light.
I have the same TEK Light on my 75G and using all 6 bulbs for more than 2 
hours will grow algae. Yes the plants pearl like crazy but so does the algae. 
And using 4 bulbs to close to the tank will do the same, but not nearly as 
bad. I keep it at about 15” from the top of the tank. I Run 4 bulbs for 9 
hours and run all 6 bulbs for 2 hours. These TEK lights IMHO put out a lot 
more light that we think it does.

Good luck with your new layout and if you need any plants for it. It would be a pleasure to give you trimmings of what ever I have.

Regards,
Alex.


----------



## Goldfishcrazy11

I know most plant-people wouldn't advise this :icon_roll , but there are plant and fish-friendly algae distorier (sp?) liquids on the market.

How long are the lights on in the tank?

If they're on over 12 hours, algae starts to become a problem. Your tank is also very well planted, so it's unlikely that you don't have enough plants... Hmmm...

Besides the algae it looks well grown. I may have missed it, but are those sunfish in there?

When you think about it, algae is native to... Well... Everywhere! And it's free (that's no always a good thing, lol)!


----------



## unirdna

AlexPerez said:


> Good luck with your new layout and if you need any plants for it. It would be a pleasure to give you trimmings of what ever I have.
> 
> Regards,
> Alex.



I certainly 2nd Alex's thoughtful offer. You see anything from my tanks that you would like, Steve, say the word. I just yanked a metric ton of s.subulata from my 30g. PM me with any/all requests.


----------



## shuks

Hay scolly, I noticed that your last picture shows, what i think are, a build up of protiens. The bubbles collectiong on the water surface tell you that there is amonia in the tank. Do you test for amonia? 

The reason I as is because I found out that my thread algy has nothing to do with my silica sand. The surface of my water looked cloudy, like someone spilled oil on the surface. I'm pretty sure this came from a build up of protiens. I started dosing heaver and added more filter media. The protien build up dissapeard in a couple days. Now my tank has no more hair algy, but for a while it was alot worsd looking than yours. I didnt need to rip all the plants out, I just removed the thread algy with a tooth brush, and let the rest die off with time. 

From that picture you posted, I'm betting you have the same problem as me. The bubbles on the surface of the water are a bad thing, and will only show up when there is something wrong with the water conditions.

It can be hard to see the film on the surface, and the only way I could tell it was there is if I chrouched down and looked directly upward towards the light.


----------



## scolley

*Turtlehead *- Thanks. But you can't get very close at all, before it becomes a bit scary I'm afraid!


*Alex *- thanks for the advice... especially since you have a dramatically similar setup. I'm not sure I'm ready to give up test kits. But I think you've got a good point on the SMS 122. Got to go think about that one a bit. As for the Tek, yeah, I know it's a lot of light. Right now I'm running lights 9 hours a day - 5 hrs with 2 lights, 4 hrs with 4 lights, so I don't think it's the light. Though it might help to raise them a bit higher.

And thanks for the offers of the trimmings!


*Goldfishcrazy11 *- those are sunfish! I've got Longears and Dollar Sunfish. I'll get around to some nice pics once I get past this algae. It seems kind of boring, I'm sure, to have such mundane fish in my tank when so many exotics are available. But I like them. I get kind of a kick knowing that we have such neat fish in our own native waters!


*Unirdna *- Thanks for the offer. PM'd done!


*shuks *- Hey! You might be onto something pal! Goodness knows these sunfish are seriously messy fish! What kind of media are you talking about? Charcoal? That would suck all the nutrients out of the water along with the ammonia. But I do need to do a test! I'm out of ammonia kits, but I'll go get a refill!
Thanks.


----------



## shuks

by filter media, I just meant adding extra sponges to my canister filter and giving them a kick start with a bottle of consintrated bacteria (the stuff that you can buy at your LFS. I forget the name of it, but i'm sure you know what I mean.)

I first started to get thread algy when I replaced my old HOB filter for my new canister filter. I thought the plants would take care of any amonia spikes in the tank untill my filter matured, but I was wrong. I started to noticed that only the surface of the water looked cloudy and thread algy started to grow. It was obviously a build up of protiens, wich meant there was something wrong with my watter parimaters. I blame it on my new filter that hasent fully mattured. So I added some more filter media and jump started it with that commercial consintrated backteria stuff I was talkin about. 

after 3-4 days the protien build up has compleatly dissaperad, and the thread algy is dying. I was sooo happy; I thought I would never get rid of it. 

anyways, I'm almost positive that your tank is going through the same thing mine was. You can tell from the bubbles that are collecting on the surface of your water; The protien build up usaly means that you have amonia in the tank. 

Here is what I would do if I were you...

-black out the tank for 3 days
-add more filter media if you can
-for the 3 day blackout period add activated carbon to your filter 
-after the blackout peroid, remove the carbon
-dose heaver. Right now I'm adding as much as 10ppm nitrate, 15ppm potasium, and just over 0.7 ppm phosphate every other day, and my plants nerver looked better. Also, dont be afraid to dose micros. Keep dosing them the same as if you wernt going through an algy outbreak.

During the blackout period, remove the thread algy with a toothbrush and do a waterchange right afterward. when you have the amonia and protien build-up under controll you will have the thread algy under controll as well.

I think the best thing you can do is try dosing more of everything exept micros. That is what I owe all my success to. For a while I thought the algy was comming from dosing too much, but then I said $^%& it and started dosing even more. I saw a significat diffrence within the first 24 hours. If your tank is already filled with algy it cant hurt to give it a try.


----------



## scolley

Thanks for the good advice shuks.

I was able to dig up an ammonia kit, and found about .15 ppm ammonia. But that is after a 50% water change, so I assume it was closer to .3 when I came back to "the horror".

This could be my fish load exceeding the capacity of the plants. Clearly if I had "no" fish I wouldn't have this problem. But that is not the case, I've been doing opportunistic fish collecting - getting the fish I wanted when I saw they were available. Though I don't think the load should exceed a well planted tank, the fact is my tank is not well planted yet, and it appears to be stressing the system.

Your blackout method seems a good idea, but I think a better idea would be to first fix the problem - excess ammonia. If I can get that under control, and the algae persists, then I'll look at a blackout.

FWIW though, I removed all the algae covered plants two days ago. And even more important, removed the algae covered cypress knee - what Buck referred to as the "alien Buddha". And granted it's only 48 hours later, but even with a dramatically reduced biomass now, there is not a spec of algae on the glass. And none seems to be growing on the healthy plants.

But to keep the momentum going I DO have to get the ammonia down. So I suppose I'll do some extra water changes and employ a bit of charcoal for a week or so, just to clean up the water. And I will try your suggestion of using some "Cycle" in one of the filters (I have 2).

So once the ammonia is under control, THEN I'll see if a blackout is needed. Thanks!


----------



## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Phew I'm so glad you haven't dug everything up yet! As I was reading the previous page I thought to myself that I must intervene  Don't lose hope. My 8 gal had hair, thread, and red algae so thick you couldn't see most plants for months and months. I bleached everything and in a week all 3 types were back. I kept tweaking the ferts based on the results I saw (keeping exact records really helped me out) and then all of a sudden one day I woke up to a tank with half the amount of red algae, and the next day it was completely gone. The hair and thread algae died off in the next week and I was left with just dust algae. My plants had a lot more algae on them so I know yours can recover too! *cheers for Scolley*


----------



## Buck

Welcome back Steve and Happy New Year to ya !

What a pickle that trip got you into eh ? Dont worry man, this is just another one of those "minor setbacks" we all go through at one time or another. Ummm...No more trips planned in the near future I hope ? LOL 

Nice to see ya back, now take to arms and beat that algae ! roud:


----------



## scolley

*Stuk *- Thanks for the encouragement pal, but I'm still gonna rip all this up if the algae doesn't stay gone. In fact, not only did I rip out the "alien Buddha", but I ripped out every single plant that had any appreciable amount of algae. So believe me, it's a different tank now, with a WAY smaller biomass. And I've got some native plants on the way to make up for it, so we'll see.

But my willingness to f*rt around with this any longer is all used up. If that algae starts coming back, the sand is going, and if necessary the stump too - and that will indeed rip everything out.

*Buck *- Thanks buddy. But it looks like I've got to travel most of January. Bummer. Not good timing for the tank. But the job pays for the hobby I'm afraid, and not the other way around. Would love to figure out a way to turn that equation around though...


*shuks *- I tell you what, I'll wager anything that "ammonia" was the magic word. I put come carbon granules in a HOT Magnum, tossed it over the side for about 6 hours, and my ammonia is now reading "0". And I'll bet you the algae doesn't come back either.

I feel kind of dumb really... here I am engaging in silly esoteric arguments about how much light a Tek T5 kicks out, whether more than 2 ppm of Phosphate is too much, or how often to use what kind of micro nutrients. And I'll bet _all along I've had too much fish p*ss _in the water. What a kick.

I suppose it just goes to show that experience counts for so very much. I might have 1800 posts here, have read (and pretty much own!) most every English language book ever written on planted tanks, built a helluva tank, and hooked up all kind of gee-gaws on it. But at the end of the day, this is only my second tank, and if I'd had a bit more fish-keeping experience, I'd have looked into one of the most common and obvious causes of algae - ammonia.:redface: What a schmuck.

That's why having you folks is great! Thanks for the help! I'll let you know how it turns out. And soon I hope to get a few decent fish shots in too. If they are going to stimulate all that algae, the least they could do is hold still for a few decent photographs!


----------



## shuks

sounds like a good plan scolly. Try and throw in some fast growers in there asap..

I live by the motto; "If the surface is clear, have no fear." 

even thought this is not really true, bubbles and protien buildup on the surface are undiniable evenence that something is very wrong. I would have never clued in either if you didnt post that picture. 

good luck


----------



## GreenerSideofLIfe

FANTASTIC SUN FISH!! 

 Glad to see other people around here like these fish!

Meet Fang.  










unfortioanly Fang passed away this summer. Im REALLY hopeing for another native fish soon. His tank is STILL standing empty. Hard to look at and not see him actualy...


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

man thats a big warmouth


----------



## Betowess

Well Shuks, You got me yanking out my ammo kit after a two year break. Zippo here, but I still have some trace scum on the surface and a little bit of algae on the glass and here and there a tweeny bit (OK, I'll admit it, more than a tweeny bit) on the plants. 

Which makes me wonder Steve, if something else was triggering the algae enough to out compete your plants and keeping the plants from taking up the ammonia, which I always thought was a plant's preferred first nutrient. Something doesn't add up. Just wondering out loud.

LOL, I like Fang's plants. What species is that?


----------



## scolley

Betowess said:


> Which makes me wonder Steve, if something else was triggering the algae enough to out compete your plants and keeping the plants from taking up the ammonia, which I always thought was a plant's preferred first nutrient. Something doesn't add up. Just wondering out loud.
> 
> LOL, I like Fang's plants. What species is that?


I'm wondering too Bob. It's been 4 days since I yanked the messed up plants and the Alien Buddha wood, and there has been very little algae growth. Not none, but very little. So I'm wondering... does decomposing wood create ammonia?

And that Fang is quite the animal! And unless my plant ID skills are slipping, his plants look to be _Cabomba plastica_, or something very similar...


----------



## Lorenceo

I immagine decomposing wood would create ammonia. From what I've gathered your bio filters werent established. Once they are it should settle down. I keep wood in all my tanks with no trouble.

With the plant ID, I'm going to go with Ambulia plasticus.
Good luck with it Steve. Looking foward to pics - good or bad.


----------



## scolley

Lorenceo said:


> With the plant ID, I'm going to go with Ambulia plasticus.


:hihi: :hihi: - Thanks Lorenco!

And please don't pay attention to the chuckle GreenerSide... I'll wager Fang would have ripped most anything else to shreds. That is one fearsome looking native fish!


----------



## scolley

*Pics and progress report*

I figure it's time for a few pics...

Here's the tank as it appears today. Kind of scruffy. But right now I'm not focused on beauty. I'm focused on algae eradication.

Removal of the Alien Buddha cypress knee made a noticeable difference in the algae growth. But there is still a problem. I'm going away for a couple of weeks, and if I return to a tank full of algae, the stump is going next.

Unirdna was kind enough to volunteer what had to be a couple of pounds of s. subulata, which you can see in the background. Thanks pal! I love it. I was going to get something to replace the giant hairgrass, which just was not doing well, and this could well be perfect.









Sunfish (Longear or Dollar - getting hard to tell the difference)
And can you see the wacky fungus on the leaf in the bottom of the pic? What in the world is that? It started on the stump, and now it is on some of the larger leaves.









Sunfish (A different one. What ever type the above one is - dollar or longear - this is the other type)









Both sunfish in the same shot - see if YOU can tell the difference...









Good Rainbow Darter shot. My image correction software tweaked the color on this a little bit. But only a little, honest!









The darters love hiding in the grass...









And perching up on leaves. They don't have swim bladders, so being anywhere where they have a view to feeding opportunities on the bottom means either swimming real hard to keep from sinking back to the bottom, or finding a nice place to perch. So they do a lot of that!










Oh yeah, shuks... the ammonia is still reading zero, or just over it. I'm hoping the culprit was that cypress knee I removed.


----------



## Safado

Scolley, Those darters look great! It has been a little while since I checked this thread, and there has been a lot of chenges. I think it looks great!


----------



## aanderson09

wow, those darters are superb colors! Your tank actually looks nice with the algae look. (without being trimmed and with the algae) It looks like something you'd find right out of the amazon. And good job, I see you're starting to win your algae war:icon_eek: keep up the good work


----------



## GreenerSideofLIfe

Betowess said:


> Well Shuks, You got me yanking out my ammo kit after a two year break. Zippo here, but I still have some trace scum on the surface and a little bit of algae on the glass and here and there a tweeny bit (OK, I'll admit it, more than a tweeny bit) on the plants.
> 
> Which makes me wonder Steve, if something else was triggering the algae enough to out compete your plants and keeping the plants from taking up the ammonia, which I always thought was a plant's preferred first nutrient. Something doesn't add up. Just wondering out loud.
> 
> LOL, I like Fang's plants. What species is that?



LOL I blieve its referet to as Petsmarticia Impulesbuyus Causesis OnSaleus.  

Fang loved to destroy things. Warmouth are more like oscars and flowerhorns (I have both of those). He would have destroyed ANYTHING that went into the tank. And trust me.... He tried  He was a fish with 'anger management issues'

:fish1:


----------



## StUk_In_AfRiKa

Mmm Steve I quite like the sag... better than the hairgrass. I know you're not focused on the beauty aspect right now but I like the look. I like that the stump is green now (I just don't like the tufts of darker algae). If it was still red it wouldn't look right without the buddha on the other side to balance things out  The right side does look a bit empty though without the wood.

And those darters are stunning! Is that their wild form?


----------



## unirdna

Looking better, Steve! I'm starting to appreciate how tall that tank is. The sag looks to have had a rough trip, but looks good enough to pull through. What was that; 5-6 days in transit? Holiday mail...what are you gonna do? I hope it grows tall for you. The stuff has a mind of its own.

Awesome rainbow darter photos. What temp do you keep that tank? 70's I hope.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

those sunfish should both be dollars. longear looks nothign like that. they have much more color and pattern tot he body of the fish. plus the base color is usually a yellow or orange versu a brown.


----------



## Bert H

Those darters look great Steve! There are some local ones you can collect in the river nearby, but their coloration is nothing compared to that.


----------



## Steven_Chong

honestly I like the sag better than the giant hair grass :thumbsup: 

I love those darters!!!:icon_redf


----------



## scolley

I got the sag in just in time to head off on another biz trip for a couple of weeks... gonna be interesting to see what I find when I get home _this _time. But a few hours before I left, another little package came in! Bert H sent me some H. micranthemoides and L. cardinalis! They both looked good. But I was knocked out by the Lobelia cardinalis. It was just one "stem", but it was very full and lush. You could immediately see how nice a little patch of this would look! And the H. micranthemoides looked good too, but it is a little like HC I think. Unless you get a whole ton of it, what you are really looking at is a bunch of potential, assuming it fills in.

It will be fun to watch! Thank Bert! Great looking native plants.:thumbsup: 

I figured everyone would like the darters. The pics are all males. The females are less inclined to come up to the front of the tank and be social. They are also totally devoid of any color beyond black, brown, and gray. These rainbow darters have been called the most colorful of all the darters, though I know there are a number of others that are colorful too. But most aren't. And these are just their "breaking into a new tank and new foods" colors. No mating colors yet. And I'm concerned about their diet. So far all I can get for them that they will eat is frozen blood worms. I need to get some insects into their diet. I've tossed crickets in there, but you can imagine with the sunfish, darters living on the bottom don't ever see them.


*GreenerSideofLife* - I've purchased a Petsmarticia Impulesbuyus Causesis OnSaleus too... but it didn't look anything like Fang. I guess there is a lot of species variation.:biggrin: 


*StUk_In_AfRiKa* - I'm gonna fill that right side in. In fact, going back to the original plan, there will indeed be a path in the middle, just not quit so dramatically distinct, and assuming the stump remains, a large visible presense on the left to draw the eye over there, a bit of a gap in the middle, and a smaller less dominiate presense on the right. Hopefully it will cause the viewer (in person, not in photos) to be visually drawn between the left and right sides of the tank, making is seem larger than it is. We'll see.


*unirdna *- Thanks again for the sag! Yeah, the tank is reasonable tall, and the sag shows it. I hope they pull through. They look a little stressed, but it is a hardy plant. Though I know my sag in my other tank seems to go through period of dormancy followed by explosion.

I try to keep my water a 73 degrees, a bit cooler for the natives than most tropicals want. Gonna be tough this summer though. Already am planning my DIY chiller.


*TheOtherGeoff* - You got me! I went back and thought about it, confirmed with my records, and I was wrong. You are right, they are both Dollar sunfish! 

I do have Longear sunfish, but they are all still juveniles. They will probably have to go when they get too big though. I had it stuck in my head that these larger male sunfish were different, but had forgotten why. Upon checking my records I recalled that one is a North Carolina strain, and one is a Florida strain. The Florida strain is supposed to be much more colorful, but so far it seems to be less so, if anything.


Glad you liked the darters! I do too. Now (fingers crossed) I hope I come home to a tank that is not completely trashed with algae, with S. subulata, H. micranthemoides, and L. cardinalis all digging in and adapting to their new home.:wink:


----------



## scolley

*Dead CO2 tank!!!*

They say stuff comes in threes, well...

1) timr and I have been discussing where best to get CO2 tanks refilled in my area.
2) Poor Oqsy has a near tragedy in his tank with a CO2 dump.
3) And my CO2 tank just ran out!

I'm still off on a biz trip! I left knowing that my tank was starting to lose pressure. I check it every week, and week before last it was reading lower than its normal 800 psi for the first time ever. But there was no time to get a new tank... too busy with work. I hoped it would be OK until I returned in a couple of weeks.

Well my wife just took a look at the meter, and she said "the little needle is resting on the peg right by the zero mark".:icon_eek: Uh oh!

And apparently my SMS122 is reading a pH of 6.4, which is the lowest I normally have it go down to. And amazingly my wife said the plants have "bubbles all over them".

So I'm wondering what happened... maybe the SMS122 regulated the dump, so it happened in a controlled fashion? And the end was recent, explaining why the pH is still low and plants pearling?

Or maybe it did dump, but not bad, and the pH has just risen to 6.4, up from something worse. In that case I'm lucky the fish didn't die. Who's to say?

But I'm assuming that my plants will be starved for CO2 when I get back in a week. I think it'll be days after that before I have time to mess with a replacement bottle. Should I whip out the Excel?


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> But I'm assuming that my plants will be starved for CO2 when I get back in a week. I think it'll be days after that before I have time to mess with a replacement bottle. Should I whip out the Excel?


My tanks have gone without CO2 for up to a week at times. I just cut their light intensity in half, and the plants do fine. Still, what a bummer to be miles and miles away when your tank "needs" you. I can see it already; on the way back home you'll pull the flight attendant aside and ask, "can't this hunk of tin go any faster?" :hihi:


----------



## scolley

Yeah, thanks Ted. It is a bit of a tough spot. I knew I had the potential for a problem when I left, but with little time to get a tank, I chose to be optimistic. If I had more experience, I would have known that tanks can go _quick_. Too late now. But this could be one _serious endorsement _ for pH controllers though. Having that thing could well be what saved my fish.

And truth be told, I've set this tank up for me to be able to be away from it. And my assumption that should this ever happen, that the controller would regulate a dump, is one of the main reasons I have one. I've always figured that being away when the tank ran out was a real possibility for me.:icon_wink 

I'll look into the light dimming. With all the electronics I have hooked up, that's tough at a distance too!


----------



## unirdna

scolley said:


> I'll look into the light dimming. With all the electronics I have hooked up, that's tough at a distance too!


You give me way too much credit. The light over my tank is a 2x96w. I just shut one of the lights off .

Good observation about the controller potentially preventing a CO2 dump. For whatever reason my CO2 tanks have never "dumped" as they ran dry.


----------



## Bert H

What a lousy thing to have happen when you're that far away Steve.  


> For whatever reason my CO2 tanks have never "dumped" as they ran dry.


 Knock on wood, the same goes for me. I have heard if you have a decent two stage regulator, there is less likelihood of the dump occurring.


----------



## Curare

Scolley, thats a mighty fine tank you got there now!

Just came back from travelling overseas and when I get time I'll see what you've been doing.

Always worth a read!


----------



## Sudi

Hey, 

I saw 43 pages so I thought that it's worth reading, and i was right !
Great set up from the beginning till now, fish are just great!
I hope that my tank will be like that once 

matt


----------



## wantplantsnotwork

Where did you get the sunfish? From a store or a pond?


----------



## scolley

wantplantsnotwork said:


> Where did you get the sunfish? From a store or a pond?


I've got the URLs saved at home of the two different places I bought the sunfish from. It's also somewhere in this thread. I'll look it up when I get back. But I bought them because I wanted the most colorful, small sunfish
that occur in the habitat I'm trying to emulate.

As for the two stage reg Bert, I've got the typical Milwaukee setup. Don't know if that is two stage or not.

Thanks folks!


----------



## A Hill

the tanks lookin much better one question tho. where is the gar? is it hiding or gone? if gone i missed the post when u took it out..

those darters are amazing. i might get a few..

-=- fish newb -=-


----------



## Oqsy

hey steve,
great progress... last pics are amazing. I'm sad to see the alien buddha has left the tank, but hopefully it will solve your ongoing algae issues. I just had a thought... you could perhaps do a cast of it and use some aquarium safe resin or epoxy to make an artificial alien buddha to replace it . 

we have rainbow darters about 20 miles from my house, but i've never seen them in an aquarium. a local game & fish commission guy recommended that I net a few and try them out, as well as "red bellied dace". never seen a pic of the dace, but from his description they sound like cherry barbs. 

fantastic tank, fantastic thread. glad to hear that your CO2 tank didn't cause quite the catastrophe that mine did. All fish have recovered fully, and the discus are colored back up like before the crash.

keep the pics coming!

Oqsy / Chris


----------



## scolley

Got home a couple of days ago. Been too busy working to even think about the tank. So much for having a life...

When I could sneak peeks though, it looks kind of encouraging. Algae still there, but not as bad. Though there is a clump of dwarf hairgrass that looks charred and blackened. Kind of weird and scary, like it has a super short black algae or fungus on it. Hope I can dig that up and make it disappear!

My pH reading stayed right on the button until about 5 days ago (three days from coming home). So the SMS 122 seems to have saved my cookies on that CO2 dump! Aparently it lot CO2 into the tank in a regulated manner for a few days after the dial was reading zero. Cool!

So I had my son turn off the 2-bulb switch on the Tek lite (Thanks for the suggestion Ted!), and unplug the macro auto doser, so most of the day the tank has no light except about 4 hours in the middle, and no more ferts. Hopefully that will keep things from getting too wacky until I have a chance to get another CO2 tank in a day or two.

I'll get picks of the tank. It's not bad at all really. I just wish I could have seen it before I cut back the lights. So I don't know if all the new, algae free growth I see is due to the lack of light, or just because the alien Buddha is gone. Maybe when I get the CO2 tank I'll leave the lights on the ridiculously short schedule for a while, just to test that. Sounds like a good idea...

*Fishnewb *- the gar is gone. Got a great home in an aquarium with lots of friends (non aquatic), so I couldn't be more please. Though I do miss him.

*Chris *- thanks pal. Glad you recovered from that near-miss. And the resin idea is a good one. Any idea how to color it... to make it look real?

*Sudi, Curare, Bert* - Thanks for the support! Haven't had much time to keep the tread from slipping into boring land, but I'll try to perk things up soon!


----------



## banderbe

scolley said:


> the macro auto doser


Dumb question.. what is a macro auto doser and where did you get it? I'm guessing it's something that automatically doses your macro nutrients.. but I've never heard of something like that.. sounds intriguing..


----------



## scolley

*Three weeks with hands-off tank...*

Well, two weeks traveling, and a week back with ZERO time for the tank spelled three weeks of no touching the tank. Almost. The CO2 ran out a week or so ago, so I had my son knock the lights back to only 4 hours (approx) a day. Seems to have worked out ok!

I've replaced my CO2, cleaned the very limited algae off the glass, trimmed the plants and scraped the ABUNDANT Olive Nerite eggs off the glass. Here are some pics. They aren't too good. I'm in a hurry. Gotta leave on another biz trip. Wonder what's gonna give out this time while I'm away?

A full tank short. You can see I've run out of clear hoses for the over the side lilies and had to resort to using much more obtrusive green eheim










Left side










Right side










General community shot










Dollar Sunfish adult










A pair of Darters










And a display of a bit of Darter attitude.











And BTW, there was very little new algae when I got home. Yahoo! :icon_wink 

Banderbe - suggest you do a search on Autodosing. You'll find quite a lot on it. Or a search for my name will probably show you specifically what I'm doing.


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## TheOtherGeoff

Looks wonderful man. it makes it very tempting for me to sell back all my tropical and go back to natives. :icon_eek: and thats alot...( menas giving up 5 discus )

you know what would look REALLY cool in there is a couple of the banded sunfish, pygmy sunfish or some orange spot sunfish. i know the latter of the three would be tricky to find but would look amazing in that tank.


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## Curare

You know that darter looks alot like an australian Native, a purple spotted gudgeon...


Let me check that...

well, close.


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## jimmydrsv

That darter is just too cool.


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## Oqsy

steve,

re: the casting of your alien buddha stump... I found a couple of leads, but nothing fantastic. There is lots of contradictory info out there about what is and is not aquarium safe, and of course you want to err on the side of caution. here's a couple of links that might get you started if you're really interested in the faux-cypress knob...

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/FWSubWebIndex/fwaquascapfaqs.htm
search on that page for the text "DIY tank decorations? (10/24/03)" and read that one... there are a few other blurbs on the same page that could be useful, but that one was the most informative in my opinion. 

also:
http://www.smooth-on.com/howto7.htm
not aquarium specific, but helpful info on how to cast...

there are tons more sites, and of course google was the place where I started... you're likely to find much better results if you really dig in, but it might not be something you're that dead-set on doing. 

Any plans to add any other hardscape? I love your setup right now, but I think a little more strength could come from another piece of hardscape or two... considered rocks? I guess they're not very swamp-like... 

Anyway, sorry for rambling. Still looking great! I wish I'd know you were after rainbow darters and I would have netted and shipped you some for free  

Chris


----------



## jerseyjay

Steve, 

Can you do me a favor and snap couple pictures of you light fixture. I'm interested in ceiling installation. I will be installing mine soon and thinking about some ideas. 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Betowess

Steve, looking great. Curious on your lighting of 4 hours. Was that 4 hours with 4x54 watts or did you have your son ever run all six? 

I'm thinking a little too much light (time) and too close to my tank may be what is causing the only significant algae issue I have, which is some of the short fuzz type. Its primarily on my L. aromatica and here and there on some of the others.

FWIW, I really like the look of your tank right now. It feels kind of lasse faire, if you will. regards, bob


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## Bert H

Steve, good to see you're winning the algae battles! :thumbsup: You mentioned that after 2 weeks you returned to hardly any algae on your glass - I'm jealous! On my newly set up (Dec) 50, I am fighting dust on the glass about twice a week.


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## PJAN

Allright 

Looking much better and healthier.
I like the fish very much. Nice and nice.
The Darter ...:thumbsup: 

Only remark..(I will say it quite..). The Cypress-stump, well eh..it's distracting somewhat.
Maybe you can look for a big branche, sticking out of the water?

But hey : fase 3 is coming..

( 1 = look at my clear tank
( 2= Oh, boy, algae, I will be back
( 3= look at me again

Gr. PJAN


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## cbennett

looking good! I really like the darters. LOL, I've been following this thread for awhile now, and just this last Saturday found the thread for when you were building the tank! I spent all day reading the thread and was in stitches when I got to the part about the sacrifice to the sand gods!!!! Anyway, way to go! :thumbsup:


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## scolley

*Consolidated reply...*

Wow! Lots of responses and so little time...

If any of you have followed any of my other posts, you know I'm a fanatic about tank automation. Not only does that satisfy the inner geek in me, but it also keeps my tanks working while I'm traveling. Which is generally a lot. So I'm about to be away for another few weeks. I'll try to keep up, but I suspect that will be hard, so I'll try to answer your posts now...

(on another note... Bob, Ted, more... many of you have GREAT threads happening that I feel pangs of guilt for not posting to. I'm sorry. Really. Time is just a precious commodity at the moment. But I will later... I promise!)

*TheOtherGeoff *- Actually Orange Spotted can be purchased. I thought about them. But distribution (not a Gulf Coast fish) kept me away from them. But they would be an outstanding addition. Fully agreed if I wasn't targeting a specific biotope.

*Curare *- I've seen some very, very good looking Aussie natives in my travels, but that looks too much like a fish to keep my attention!:icon_wink All kidding aside, that looks much more like one of my Florida Flag fish than a darter. I need to take a picture so you can see. If they didn't eat plants, they'd be pretty cool fish.

*jimmydrsv *- thanks pal! I agree!

*Oqsy *- Thanks for the fake hardscape links. I really, really might have to check them out since I've STILL GOT AN ALGAE problem, and it might be the stump. I'm not quite so attached to the alien Buddha, but I LOVE the stump.

On another point though PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't tell me you could have gotten me Rainbow Darters that look like these because I just might have to kill myself. You don't want to know what I had to pay to get those colorful naive fish. Let's just say it was shameful and leave it at that.

*Jay *- happy to help if I can, especially for a photographer extraordinary. But can you PM me with the kind of photo info you are interested in? The fixtures where it attaches to the wall? The Tek lite? The whole setup, and it's incorporation into the room? Please advise.

*Bob *- that was 4 hours with 4x54 watts. And frankly, given the general good condition of the tank right now (not perfect mind you, very small thread algae on everything) I'm wondering if maybe I came home to something nice specifically because of the low light days I imposed due to the lack of CO2. I've set the tank back on it's normal light schedule. And I'm leaving for two weeks again. If I come back to more algae, I'll KNOW it's the light.

And thanks for the "hands off" comment. That's the look I'll be going for eventually, thought at the moment that is a bit more true than I'd like.

*Bert *- Thanks pal. The only thing better than winning is "have won" which I have not yet. And after that hopefully comes "have won, and I know why!". Please keep your fingers cross because I hope to get there, and share it with everyone, so we can all learn from my mistakes.

*PJAN *- Yes, I think you've said that about three times! Problem is, it's taking me a REAL long time to get to the third stage... 3= look at me again. I hope I get there someday! Thanks for the continued faith and support!

*cbennett *- I'm glad you got a grin out of that! I sure had fun doing it that little skit. Sometimes when you are ready to cry, it often seems a little goofiness goes a long aways. Does for me anyway!


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

"Actually Orange Spotted can be purchased. I thought about them. But distribution (not a Gulf Coast fish) kept me away from them. But they would be an outstanding addition. Fully agreed if I wasn't targeting a specific biotope"

ahh it al makes sense now. i am jealous of your ability to be able to purchase them. the only wayt i can get them here is fish ONE lake at ONE park. and i have to be tricky when doing it cause they say for kids under 14 only. but im still that old mentally. 

one the note of paying for or obtaining rainbow darters i find this interesting. i can readily get aleast 4 different types of darter from within a small radiius of my home. i am amazed at how you can find these fish and other natives in the stores. they arent legal for sale in this state which i guess is why i find it so mind blowing. at anyrate, i still love your tank and decided to use it as the wallpaper to help keep them tempting from going native again.


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## Betowess

Yeah, I'm thinking of running the Tek @ 4x54 for four hours and 2x54 for four hours for a total photo period of 8 (upto 8.5 when I cheat). There is also a 3 hour siesta figured in mid-day. Maybe that is the ticket with this retina burner to keep the bad guys toast. If it works, you'll be the first to know.


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## cprroy73

Steve your tank looks great. Very healthy looking plants. The fish well they make me want to get my rod and reel and go perch jerkin'.  Do you ever feed them live crickets or worms? Brim love em. Your tank is very original. A pleasant change from the "Amano Types".


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## scolley

No time to reply to your posts... rushing to get our the door for two weeks. Leaving in an hour or so. But was looking at the tank... it's Tuesday, and the full cycle of lights has been on for only a few days... and already I have thread algae on the glass, and more algae in general in the tank. 

So if it is not the CO2 I replaced (not likely), then it's got to be the lights. Well I suppose it could be micros in the water change. But I'm gonna assume it's the lights and cut them back to a six hour photo period... in terms of 56 watt T5 bulbs (or "Retina Burners" to you Bob!) that's 2x - 1hr, 4x - 4hrs, and 2x - 1hr.

I'm just not willing to come back to a tank of algae, and this is beginning to look like another guilty party. The alien Buddha removal helped. This may be even better. Will know in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Betowess

I think you're on to something Steve. Too much light or too close or too long of photoperiod or all combined... Well, Teks were designed for reefers. 

I know knocking my time back to 8 hours from 10-12 hours has already helped a bit. Maybe its also related to the fish load. Those Sunfish probably eat alot as do my Bosemanis and Apistos. Safe trip pal. bob


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## scolley

*TheOtherGeoff *- Go to Jonahas Aquarium (http://jonahsaquarium.com/) for Orange Spotted Sunfish, or Darters for that matter. And you used this for wallpaper? Wow! That could be the nicest thing anyone ever said to me! Thanks.

*Bob *- Will look for your update on the Tek results. Good luck.

*cprroy73 *- thanks. And yes, they love crickets! But only little ones... it's amazing how skittish these fish are.


----------



## scolley

Jay Luto said:


> Steve,
> 
> Can you do me a favor and snap couple pictures of you light fixture. I'm interested in ceiling installation. I will be installing mine soon and thinking about some ideas.
> 
> Thanks in advance


Jay - took me a while to get around to this. Here's a few pics, maybe give you an idea what the Tek REALLY looks like. As in hanging from the ceiling, having to keep the extra wire (for raising it) on top of the light, having a the power cords hanging out the back, and all that other "ugly" stuff.

My wife would kill me if she knew I took these "candid" shots of the room. But hey, she never looks at this forum.:hihi:


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## jerseyjay

Steve, 

Thanks !

I ended up purchasing 2 x Aqualight Pro 24". I'm looking at more cables  but I always wanted to try MH. I picked 2 x 24" vs. 1 48" b/c 1st has 4 x 65W and 2nd had 2 x 96W. 

I finally got my rimless tank and currently waiting for ADA soil.


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## scolley

Jay Luto said:


> I ended up purchasing 2 x Aqualight Pro 24"... I finally got my rimless tank and currently waiting for ADA soil.


Sorry to have posted these too late. But given that you've got all your ducks lining up, just be aware that we all look forward to the pictures!:thumbsup:


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## scolley

*3.5 Weeks without touching the tank...*

OK, I just got back today. I haven't touched, much less seen much of, the tank in three and a half weeks. First business travel, then a small vacation with the family (where I busted my knee up skiing!!!). Now back to the tank...

The ferts have been on autodosing auto pilot. Started at N-19, P-1.5 . Came back to N-13, P-1.3. Not too bad for almost a month without touching it. KH and GH creeping up a bit, but still in your basic 5-7 range for both. Still acceptable.

Lights, if you read my post prior to leaving, have been on 6 hours a day. Short photo period, low risk of algae. And what's the upshot of all this?...

Very little new algae! Some sure, but next to what I've been though lately... very little!​ But make no mistake, there was new algae.

So the light is definately a contributing factor to my algae problem. All my new growth was nearly algae free. But at the same time, the new L. repens was algae free, but also as green as the grass on my lawn. No reds on that stuff. So on one hand I know cutting back the light significantly diminishes the algae. On the other hand, it is still not all gone, and the light is not enough for my plants. Something has got to give!

I proved to myself that the removal of the alien Buddha made a _big _difference. I'm afraid that my cherished cypress stump has got to go. 

Bummer.​
That destroys my aquascape (or at least my plans for what it will look like). But my wife even commented on how the algae problem immediately improved massively when I removed the cypress knee (alien Buddha). And she is insisting that I rip out the stump to rid myself of this algae for good.

For once I think she is right. The slate under the stump will destroy the entire left side of the tank. But I can only hope it will all grow back soon.

This weekend will be devoted to major ripping out of a bad cypress experiment. Hey, live and learn.


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## hoffboy

*Learning indeed...*



scolley said:


> Hey, live and learn.


That's why I love this hobby. And, needless to say, I've learned a lot (and chuckled quite a bit) thanks to your generosity in this thread. I look forward to your next move.


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## Bert H

Hey Steve, from the angle of the shot you took, tank looks good man! If I left my tank unattended for 3-4 weeks I'd be afraid to see what I came back to. I hear you about removing the wood, have you thought about adding some petrified wood to it? I know it's not the same effect, but some columnar looking pieces might be interesting and go with the vals/sag you have in the background. Just a thought.


----------



## scolley

Thanks *Hoffboy*. This is _definately _a learning experience! And sometimes even fun. 

*Bert *- Petrified wood would be cool. But it is a bit hard to find. And if it didn't look like a cypress stump, it wouldn't fit visually. But thanks for the suggestion. And FWIW, your H. micranthemoides and L. cardinalis both are looking good. The micranthemoides is spreading, and only has a little bit of algae on it. It seems to have suffered a bit from my cutting the lights back to 6 hours. But it is supposed to be a high light plant. I'm sure it will start spreading even faster now that I've bumped the 6 hour photo-period up to 8 hours.

And the cardinalis is doing well. How do you propagate that? I had to trim most of the bottom leaves that is began with because they got algae covered. Not bad, but I didn't want it to spread. But it has doubled in height and diameter, with new algae free leaves. Do you just rip a chunk off to propagate it or what? It looks great, and is a very cool plant!

And *Unirdna *- The S. subulata is flowering! Just like the L. cardinalis, the original leaves that you sent became algae covered, and I'm slowly ripping them all out. In the case of both plants I think that is because the mature leaves just stopped growing when transplanted. But also like the L. cardinalis, the S. subulata now has plenty of large algae free leaves. Between that and the flowers, and the fact that it is trying hard to crop up in places where I don't want it... IMO it is adapting well to its new home.

Thanks folks!


----------



## Bert H

Glad to hear they are doing well for you Steve! :thumbsup: I use the micranthemoides as a foreground - just keep giving it hair cuts. Last week I pulled up a chunk of 'sod' which was about 2 x 6 inches in size.



> And the cardinalis is doing well. How do you propagate that?


 I pull it up, cut off the top and replant both top and bottom. The bottom will have a large root ball which I usually trim before replanting. I have one plant at home which will send off branches from the main stem - another way to get baby plantlets. But for whatever reason, only one plant seems to do that, don't know if it's a different variety or just 'one of those things'.


----------



## scolley

Here is a lame pic of the flowers coming off the S. subulata. Not a good pic, but I'm glad the plants are happy! These are coming up every day.










And Bert, I've read every L. cardinalis post on this forum. And like you said, everyone seems to just whack the things off and wait for the lower stem to regrow, and some seem to replant the tops.

I'm posting this pic of the stuff that you sent just to highlight my dismay at doing this... never having done this before. While everyone seems to be saying "treat it like a stem plant", the stalk is all roots (as you can possibly see in this pic) and is maybe two inches across. That's a pretty thick "stem" to be whacking!










Are you sure I should be cutting this off below the leaves? Also, there seem to be two branches off the main stalk now. Should these be cut off and replanted? Please advise. Anyone. Thanks.


----------



## Bert H

Steve, 

I cut the stem such that the upper portion can be replanted so you need to have some stem with it. I typically cut it so I have about a 2 inch upper portion and stick that back into the substrate. If you have branching you can treat the branches the same way. 

In my tank, I have it as a foreground/midground plant. I typically pull them up, top and replant the tops when they start getting too tall for my tastes. It's not a real fast grower (which I like  ) but it's a steady grower and easy maintenance.

The main stem of the older 'mother' plant does get somewhat thick the taller it gets. As I said, if you replant this bottom after topping it, it will send up a couple of new stems from it, and you can propagate it thusly. HTH.


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## bharada

Steve,
When my Dwarf Lobelia is getting that tall there are usually a bunch of side shoots. I'll pull the whole plant out, clip off all the side shoots, then chop off all but maybe an inch of the stem. I'll then replant the top and surround it with all the side shoots.

You can clip the bottom stem into smaller pieces and plant them, leaving maybe 1/4" sticking above the surface. They'll start producing new shoots. If you stick them behind the main plant you won't even have to look at it while it's regenerating.


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## scolley

*No more stump!*

Holy Moley! What a mess!

I ripped up the cypress stump today, hoping to put the final nail in the nasty thread algae coffin. Not sure if this is will do it, but I had to try.

And what a disaster! ​
The whole left side of the tank was destroyed. Not to mention the fact that the entire layout for what I had originally planned (including the path in the middle) is now totally ruined. So it's really start all over time for me.

The only thing that is consistent is the biotope itself, and staying faithful to the target environment, even if I don't have cypress in it. So this will require a bit of thought, time, and eventual redesign. In the interim, I'm going to focus on making sure that darn algae is under control, and having a healthy tank.

So I'm sure this tread will get a bit boring in the interim. But that's OK, it's an interesting journey for me, and today is just another milestone. In the end I'm sure it will be worth it! 

Bert, Bill - Thanks for the propagation advice on the L. cardinalis. Have done as advised, and we'll see where it leads. Thanks!


----------



## Bert H

Ouch! Sorry to hear that Steve. 


> So I'm sure this tread will get a bit boring in the interim.


 Boring - nah.



> But that's OK, it's an interesting journey for me, and today is just another milestone. In the end I'm sure it will be worth it!


And that's exactly why it won't be boring. Heck man, your perseverance with this project is a model for folks who think they should quit after a couple of months of an algae factory!

Looking forward to seeing the next progression.


----------



## unirdna

I second Bert's comments. Best of luck, Steve. I've found that a fresh start is more rewarding than lots of patch-work. I hope you experience the same. Keep us posted. Your mundane is our exotic.


----------



## Sietch31

Hi there,

This is my first post here, I am a little frenchman lost in the desert of Arabia, and I've read a lot and learned a lot form this board since a long, long time  

I've particularly followed the Scolley's big adventure, an heroic fantasy full of yellow plastic ducks, magic stones, dances to god of sands and I have to say I was keeping me out of breath, waiting for the next developments to happen :bounce: !!!

I have to say BRAVO for all the work done, your courage to face adversity and real congatulation for the local biotope idea !

I really loved the gar episode....pity you had to take that beautiful fish away... 

This time I may have an idea :icon_idea :
As I love your cypress stump, as well as your "little Buddha", I really think it is a pity having to take them off...
Why not getting them back in the tank :hihi: ???
But, with a protective coat of clear epoxy resin to avoid any rejections of what may be in that wood into the water :wink: !
Just my two cents....

And thank you Steve:thumbsup: , because of your well documented (should I say beyond documentation :red_mouth ?) threads, I am now in advanced negociation with my home prime minister for a big rimless, frameless tank !!!

Sietch


----------



## scolley

Your first post Sietch - Welcome to PT!

Thanks for the gracious comments. These threads have gotten such massive attention, it is always interesting to see who is out there, taking this journey with me. Thanks for posting.

I've read up on people using coatings on wood. It generally seems to be frowned upon, so I'm hesitant. Thanks for the suggestion though. But I might try creating and entire resin cast of the wood. Maybe... sounds like a lot of work. But it is a possibility. Right now I'm afraid, my efforts are focused on defeating this stubborn algae. Next I will return to finishing the dream! 

PS - don't mistake just being plain old stubborn for courage.:icon_wink
PPS - I loved the gar too! And it is apparently much loved in it's new home. It was a really cool fish.


----------



## awrieger

Sietch31 said:


> I've particularly followed the Scolley's big adventure, an heroic fantasy full of yellow plastic ducks, magic stones, dances to god of sands and I have to say I was keeping me out of breath, waiting for the next developments to happen :bounce: !!!


It should be released as a book! 

Ah, the ducks. I remember the ducks. That seems so long ago!

It's a shame removing the wood caused so much destruction, but it's probably for the best and I'm sure you'll rebuild the tank better than before!


----------



## bastalker

Hey Steve... I have followed this thread for a long time. I may not have posted but I have been involved in the transformation! What a journey!! From building your tank, to bass, gars, perch. Amazing healthy plants..

All this when yer on the road all the time. I have to admit it bud, I am impressed!!! Kudos to ya!roud:


----------



## scolley

*A 9 month journey collapsed into 60 seconds...*

Thanks folks. It has been quite an adventure. Since such an amazing number of people actually seem to be following this, and since I KNOW that it's gonna be a bit boring as I struggle to wrestle control of my tank from the algae... to briefly relieve the tedium, I've put together a quick shot at the "highlights" of this tank. Or maybe the "low lights", depending on one's perspective.


My small tank building experiment - what a silicone mess! Worthless, but a good learning experience. Learning to respect how much a mess silicone can make that is!











Finishing my layout of the stuff in the stand, and deciding where the bulkhead holes would go. Top view of the stand interior, showing bulkheads holes.









Front view. All this changed, of course, when I tried to actually cram all that stuff in the stand!












High Hopes!












A dream fulfilled.












A dream crushed!












And crushed again.












And again.












And crushed a 4 more times, not to be documented here...



Until an offering was made to the gods of silicone.








With an MPEG of the sacrifice. This MPEG is 6.5 meg




Leading up to this!












And the first optimistic planting. Hoping for the best.












Plumbing Complete












The joys of Largemouth Bass ownership (unless you are an Amano shrimp).





And the joys of Longnose Gar ownership (click the link for the flic).
Here's the movie.




A modest entry into AGA's 2006 Contest.




The horrible reality of a bad algae problem sets in...






















Amid the joys of native fish ownership.





















Which pretty much catches us up to date. It's been a heck of a ride! Now about that algae...


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## aquanut415

I really like the layout here....and the use of the light colored sand contrasts the green very well IMO.


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## unirdna

LOLOL....

Steve, I must have been preoccupied during the "sacrificial era" of your tank. I completely missed that stuff! I don't know how you mustered up the will to take photos of your tank while it was pouring water out the seams. Great photos! I'm glad you reposted them, or I would have missed out.

PS. You must have been at the end of the line.....warrior paint !?! LOLOL. That made my day


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## esarkipato

O M G

That sacrificial movie to the silicone gods is hi-freakin-larious. I've been making weekly sacrifices to the algae gods, but more in the form of sugar and yeast mixtures


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## Curare

hehehe, scolley, nice timeline, glad to see that you can laugh about all the trials and tribulations of making that big kahuna now


That cypress stump, think you could airbag it to australia??

hehehe


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## scolley

Glad you got a chuckle folks. I know I did - you gotta laugh when you want to cry! It's the best medicine.

Curare - Are you outta your gourd? I've been to you continent/country, and almost didn't get in because I had a thimble full of carved Chinese wood I couldn't identify. And you think I can get 50lbs or rotting stump in? Wake up buddy!:icon_wink
PS - Thread algae is my _light stringy_ nemesis... :hihi: thanks for the enlightenment.


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## Curare

hmm

Chineses wood is a problem, however 4 litres of wine from liguria and maribor, garlic from italy, wooden pan pipes from slovenia, chocolate from switzerland, and STROH from austria all got through


oh, and for the record, I'm well out of my gourd!


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## bastalker

Your not part Mohegan, or Mashantucket are ya?:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

I hear ya have ta use green face paint for the algae gods!!


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## scolley

*Tank Update*

*THE CONFESSION*

Well, with head hung low, I've a confession to make...

The algae is not going away. Not taking over anymore, but any new leaf has about 4 days before it starts to get it too. Not good. So I did the next thing to a tear-down.

I ripped almost everything up. The only things I left were the following:

1) Eleocharis acicularis, Dwarf Hairgrass - but it had algae in it too, so I gave it a massive haircut.
2) Hemianthus micranthemoides, Baby Tears - it was little affected, for reasons I don't understand.
3) Lobelia cardinalis, Cradinal plant - same there... little algae, so I kept it.
4) Ludwigia glandulosa - this plant had it bad, except for new leaves. But it is such a rich, rich maroon color, and sooo hard to find, that I stripped off the old leaves and kept it.
5) Riccia fluitans - I ripped out all of the normal form that I could find. I'm sure I missed plenty. But I left the little sprigs of the mini stuff where it was woven in the hairgrass.​
Everything else... GONE! It was a few pounds of algae covered plant.

I feel really bad because so many of you guys have contributed so many native plants for me to try. Thanks again. But I've got a feeling that unless I just reduced the total mass of algae in the tank, I was never going to get ahead of this. Sorry.

Especially to Unirdna (Ted) that donated that magnificent mass of S. subulata, only for me to ruin it. Sorry Ted, and sorry to the other people that might have made better use of those plant. 


*HOPE SPRINGS ETERNAL*
But I didn't rip up everything with no intention of replacing that biomass. And I had to fix the horror show in the side of the tank after ripping out the cypress stump. So I bought and planted more plants:

1) Lobelia cardinalis, Cardinal Plant
2) Sagittaria subulata 
3) Ludwigia repens
4) Nymphoides aquatica, Banana Plant 

And wanted, but couldn't get more...
5) Hemianthus micranthemoides, Baby Tears​ 
I'll try to post pics tonight.



*LINGERING QUESTIONS*
I've got a few q's for you guys.

1) _Do you think I should clean my filters too_? I didn't, because this wasn't a true teardown... no cleaning of the lines, not scouring the tank, reusing the substrate, and even allowing some "tainted" plants to remain. It wasn't about _eliminating_ the algae, it was about _reducing_ its mass. Would love another opinion on this.

2) _Should I reduce my ferts until growth really kicks in_? Right now I'm holding the tank in the ranges of N:12-15, P:2.0-2.5, K:25-30. There are multiple schools of thought on this.


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## medicineman

Sometimes especially when it comes to nightmarerish staghorn, beard and thread algae it is very difficult to win. I have had this experience, tried many things including algaecide and still lost the battle and ended up sorry PITA tearing up a huge tank which is a couple of days worth of work. 
Throwing away heavily infected plants might be the best choise when the infestation is already chronic and out of control.


I also did not touch my filter when I did tearups (well... just cleaning a little bit and I would leave a small pump running to keep those bacteria alive). 

For the next setup, dont use any more "horror" cypress stump, instead use those trustworthy driftwood as proved suitable. Nobody knows what that stump leach to your water collumn. Also make sure you do not have any alien stuff from substrate to decoration to keep things save initially.

I think you should crank up that CO2 for a week or two for day and night, as much as you can so long you did not kill the fish inside. Reducing the ferts might be wise also, at least for a while until the plants settles in and start to do normal metabolism. 

Btw, is that a typo? P : 20-25ppm :icon_eek: I may not be too good at this, but the last time I added P without knowing how to dose I end up screwing everything. I thought 1-2 ppm of P is already more than enough (provided that you have a good running high light tank)

For starting up anew, how about limiting lighting period to 8-9 hours with various intensity? I did some light (sunlight) management some time ago and the result is noticeable.

It has been a great journey and thank you for sharing in details! I did learned a lot from the posts.


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## scolley

medicineman said:


> Btw, is that a typo? P : 20-25ppm :icon_eek:


Yup, sorry... off by one decimal place! I fixed it in the original posts to avoid future EEKs. 

No more stumps (on wood at all), 8 hours of reduced lights (though some portions of the tank get unavoidable sunlight which does not appear to be promoting algae in those places), CO2 is fluctuates between 40 and 50 PPM.

Thanks for the advice.


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## Adrian

My mind has officially been blown be this entire endeavour...truly brilliant stuff scolley!


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## unirdna

Steve,

I spent some time looking through past posts and photos. You're ferts and CO2 always looked to be on the mark - certainly, NOT suspect. The one nagging quirk I always saw was that the tank never _really_ looked settled in. There are many possible reasons for this. 

I could be misinterpretting the photos.
The algae may have always been beating your plants down.
You may have continuously fiddled with the tank too much.
Or, a combination of two or all of these.

I'm not trying to rub salt on the wound. In fact, this is the best I can come up with. In my experience, there has been only ONE rock-solid fact in this hobby:

A ton of healthy, growing, established plants makes for little to no algae. I think you have been approaching your problem from the "how do I combat algae" angle, when you should be asking, "why are my plants not growing optimally".

The reason I say this is because I have the unique advantage of having seen how a plant grows in my tank and yours (s. subulata). It was holding in your tank, and looked to be spreading a bit. But, it's an absolute weed in my tank. I have harvested two more wads the size of the shipment I sent you in the last couple months. The CO2 in my tank is 20-30ppm and ferts are comparable to yours. The tank has one, 96w PC light on it.

Your tank, seemingly should be growing the plant even faster than mine, but it isn't. And this causes me to start thinking about your substrate and water parameters. I don't have any solid hypotheses, just that something about your tank, itself, is "off". Your 20g seems to be doing wonderfully. What is different about that tank? Water params? Substrate? Plant species?

My point: Before you go investing time and energy trying to remove algae, first think about why your plants aren't growing as well as they should be.

I speak from from experience... This was a tank I had about a year ago http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/algae.jpg . I cleaned and cleaned, and removed and removed algae. It just kept coming. Then, one day I added vals and hygrophila to the tank. Two months later, this was what I had http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v340/unirdna/twomonthslater.jpg . This result did not come from "eradicating" algae. I just don't think you can do that, regardless of how you try. What you can do, is get your plants growing so well that algae doesn't.

In my case, I achieved this result by adding two plants that I knew to grow well (and very fast) in just about any condition. As expected, they flourished (where the sagittaria could not). The success of those two plants "killed" off the algae. Over the next few months, I slowly removed those two species until only the sag was left in the tank. Now, as you know, the sag grows quite well, and has a strong foothold on algae-growth, despite the fact that the vals and hygro are gone.

Why this worked is filled with speculation (as you pointed out). The important point is that this DOES work. I may be a bit dogmatic now that I found a winner, but every time I add those two plants to a new tank, algae never gets a start.

Now, I'm not recommending that you do exactly as I did; only that you keep in mind that you may not be doing anything "wrong" with respect to your lighting, water parameters, CO2, etc. All the numbers are falling in line, but the problem persists. 

Summary:
I think that your first (and ultimately "fatal") mistake was to start and carry the mindset of your biotype. In other words, you were hoping to have the tank you wanted from the get-go, and simply watch it grow in. I think you would benefit from planting a few bomb-proof (albeit, exotic) species in your tank. Not permenant, but long enough for the other plants to gain some momentum. Then, remove them as the 'wanted' plants begin to flourish.

There would be an added benefit to doing this... If the "known" fast/easy growing plants were not growing like weeds, you would be relatively certain that _something_ was "off" re: your water params or substrate. I've never seen anyone offer hygrophila polysperma high light, high CO2, and a ton of ferts and not have it grow like mad. 

These are my thoughts. This is what has worked for me, and what I would do. I hope that you read my words in a helpful (not callous) tone; it was written as such.


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## Sietch31

Steve,

Thanks for posting your "historic" pictures  

But bad for you, this "first optmistic planting" pic, really shows how good looking are your cypress stump and "little buddha" IMO !!!!

This means I have to find ideas :icon_idea to convince you to try that epoxy coating on those...and get them back in the water while you may apply Urnidna's advices....and wait to get back to that magnificent result  

First of all, it will be much simplier to coat them than to try to cast them don't you think :icon_roll ???
I'll ask advices for you on that french DIY forum I know and will revert to you....

You have won the fight over some very powerfull evil yellow plastic ducks, you will not step back in front of a nice piece of wood, won't you ????

I'll be back.....:icon_mrgr


----------



## scolley

Thanks *Adrian*! Better to have your mind blown with tanks not full of algae though!

And *Sietch31 *- I've not abandoned the fake epoxy cypress concept. I'm just concerned about getting ahead of this algae first. 

*Ted *- Thanks for the great, thoughtful post. I'm very much inclined to agree with you, that if plants aren't growing well, something is fundamentally wrong. Hard to argue with that. So here's my retort...

You can see in the beginning the plants were growing well. The first two months had some pretty good growth. Then things started going down hill. I attribute that to several factors possible factors, or a combination thereof:

1) I removed my non-native huge Java fern too early - it was there for the sole purpose of providing some good growing biomass until the tank settled.
2) I went too heavy on the micros, too early
3) I increased the light
4) I let a bad test kit throw off my dosing (minor, short problem that)
5) I had a wonky (expired) pH probe causing me to underdose CO2.
6) I had some wood that was beginning to rot.

I think some combination of these problems were "root cause" - leading to a a secondary problem - a profusion of thread algae. Once the root problems were cured, the thread algae problem was bad enough, pervasive enough, that it was self-sustaining. This created a cycle of unhealthy plants with less than vigorous growth, having early die off of leaves that created too much rotten material in the tanks, feeding the algae, and the cycle continues.

Obviously I could be wrong about this, but yesterday's replanting was an attempt to break that cycle.

Though I understand your point Ted, that if caught in such a cycle, a vigorously growing biomass may be the only thing that can get you out. But please don't overlook the fact that I've already done the "dump a ton of fast growing plants" thing. I put in a bunch of Hydrocotyle leucocephala (Pennywort) and a whole lot of Egeria densa (Anacharis). Both really fast growers that grew like weeds at first, but eventually succumbed to the algae too. But then again, I had not solved the "root cause" problems mentioned above either. 

So assuming I've solved "root cause" now, maybe it is time for round two of "dump a ton of fast growing plants".


As for my 20g, you can't even compare the tanks. That tank has a well established biology in the filter, substrate, lines, etc. It is only moderately lit tank - 65w over 20g - for slow growth. And it gets almost no ferts. Just what it is in the fish food, the tap water, and weekly squirt of Excel. And I leave it thick like a jungle in there. It's much easier IMO to grew plant in a tank that is packed to the gills with green than an open tank with relatively few plants - this ties back to your point I believe Ted.

But I don't want to stick vals in this tank if I don't _have _to. They are too hard to get out. Hygrophila polysperma is another matter though. Maybe I'll give that a shot. Thanks. I'll give it a day or three to observer algae growth before I pay for another package of plants ($$$).

Thanks for the advice.:thumbsup: 

PS - For the record, it's a real bummer to be working through such fundamental problems as I approach my 2,000th post.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> I put in a bunch of Hydrocotyle leucocephala (Pennywort) and a whole lot of Egeria densa (Anacharis). Both really fast growers that grew like weeds at first, but eventually succumbed to the algae too. But then again, I had not solved the "root cause" problems mentioned above either.


Steve, I can't speak for pennywort, buy Elodea has not yielded the algae-fighting results of a fast-growing plant. Yes, it grew like a weed in my tanks as well, but seemingly did nothing to combat algae. It was the plant I tried in my 30g thread-algae mess before trying Hygro and Vallis. I planted about 10 stems. They quickly grew to the top, but eventually got coated in algae. It is my experience that some plants, when healthy, simply will NOT let algae grow on their surface. It is these plants that work the best for establishing a new tank. Vals give in once in a while on their edges, but Hygro always grows flawlessly right in the belly of the beast.




scolley said:


> So assuming I've solved "root cause" now, maybe it is time for round two of "dump a ton of fast growing plants".


I agree 100%, and I'd do the same.

...



scolley said:


> But I don't want to stick vals in this tank if I don't _have _to. They are too hard to get out. Hygrophila polysperma is another matter though. Maybe I'll give that a shot. Thanks. I'll give it a day or three to observer algae growth before I pay for another package of plants ($$$).


I can appreciate not wanting vals in your tank. They can be a pain to fully remove :icon_roll, especially in such a tall tank. In truth, I put more stock in the algae-fighting properties of hygrophilla, anyway.



scolley said:


> PS - For the record, it's a real bummer to be working through such fundamental problems as I approach my 2,000th post.


Without the sour, we'd have nothing to compare the sweet. It's going to be a good day when you get that tank runnin on all cylinders roud:


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## Curare

Scolley, you know that we're not all having the best time, I feel your pain.

I'm a firm beleiver that we'll never be perfectly happy with our tanks, either the plants don't grow right, or the equipment is crud (in our opinion) or the tank is too small or a myriad of other things.

I'd say that planted tanks of high calibre are an excercise in Kai Zen, taking small steps to inch ever closer to perfection.

You're doing pretty well even with these setbacks, but look at it this way, it give you a chance to sort out those little niggly problems in your system.

If you didn't enjoy messing with the tank you might as well have a TV on that stand!


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## scolley

Thanks Ted, Curare. If that algae begins to shows its ugly head, it'll be the Hygrophila polysperma I'm reaching for! But until that time...

Here's a humble shot of the new "layout". Which isn't a fair representation really. I'm planning on shifting the S. sub. off to the left to cover up the Tek cords that the cypress stump previously covered. And I want the left side of the tank to be dense with plant life, the right sparse. But for the moment I've populated that side with L. repens, just to kick up the biomass, though I am WELL aware that the tank overall is sparsely vegetated.










But one way or the other, this algae will be defeated What I'm really worried about is the poor fish you see in the background of this shot.









That is a Syngnathus scovelli, or Gulf Pipefish. I grew up seeing these things slowly moving among the weeds as a kid... particularly when there had been hard rains, causing excess water in the tributaries to cause brackish water from Mobile Bay to back up into the principally freshwater areas.

When I saw this in a pet shop in New Hampshire, I HAD TO have it. I knew what I was looking at. Only problem is that this is a dead fish swimming. They said that it ate frozen brine shrimp. Well it doesn't eat mine! And it doesn't eat live brine shrimp, or mosquito larvae, or even frozen daphnia. I suppose my next possible step is live daphnia, but that cost maybe 4x what the fish cost for a single supply. Not sure if I want to feed it that bad....

So I'm kinda bummed about the pet shop leading me astray on what this fish would accept. It sure was a shoe-in for the environment I was targeting.


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## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> "...PS - For the record, it's a real bummer to be working through such fundamental problems as I approach my 2,000th post."


Hey, at least you had the courage to admit and share your mistakes! You notice I was "gone" for quite a while :icon_redf unable to admit that I had NOT been able to get on top of things even after following all the great advice from TPT members. I really did want to quit, but, as I've mentioned before, the Scot in me won't let me after sinking this amount of money in the hobby. 

You'll get it. We know it's possible. I've compared high light, fertilized planted tanks to walking a tightrope, one wrong move and you fall into algae soup seems like. Still, **this** to algae







!!!



scolley said:


> "...it'll be the Hygrophila polysperma I'm reaching for!


_"Back off! I have a Hygrophila polysperma and I'm not afraid to use it!"_


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## cprroy73

Steve it sure looks to me like you dont have that much algae. From the pictures anyway. Still very nice:thumbsup:


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## cprroy73

If you need some hygro I have plenty I can spare BTW.


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## Bert H

Hey Steve, 

I feel your pain man! Hang in there, you know you will come out on top in the end!


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## jhoetzl

scolley said:


> Only problem is that this is a dead fish swimming. They said that it ate frozen brine shrimp. Well it doesn't eat mine! And it doesn't eat live brine shrimp, or mosquito larvae, or even frozen daphnia. I suppose my next possible step is live daphnia, but that cost maybe 4x what the fish cost for a single supply. Not sure if I want to feed it that bad....


Scolley - for some reason, I think I remember someone had one of these when I was younger, I think it was my next door neighbor in the first house when I was growing up. At any rate, have you tried any foods more common in saltwater tanks? I know my neighbors kept saltwater tanks, and I am pretty sure this is what they had in one of the tanks.

Maybe some of those Hikari rotifiers or plankton? Or if you can find a freezer bar of cyclopeeze? (My fry and most of my fish go nuts for that cyclops stuff!). They also make freeze dried and flake versions of it.

And yeah, just had a look around on the web...certainly looks like what I remember.
http://www.aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=21424&cid=4150&search=
I found a few other references and read that they don't have stomachs...so they will eat constantly...

Good luck getting it to eat - they are pretty cool fish!


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## bastalker

Like the new layout Steve! lots a room for growth now!! Wheres the sticks??:wink: 

Doesn't look like you need the hygro yet, but if ya do, I have a tank full of it!!:biggrin: 



Scolly said:


> When I saw this in a pet shop in New Hampshire, I HAD TO have it. I knew what I was looking at. Only problem is that this is a dead fish swimming. They said that it ate frozen brine shrimp. Well it doesn't eat mine! And it doesn't eat live brine shrimp, or mosquito larvae, or even frozen daphnia. I suppose my next possible step is live daphnia, but that cost maybe 4x what the fish cost for a single supply. Not sure if I want to feed it that bad....


I bet the sunfish are loving that banquet!! Get the tweezers out, net that sucker, an start hand feedin it!


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## Adrian

Steve, I think everyone will agree with me when I say that yer being too hard on yourself man.


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## scolley

*Cindy *- All I've got to say is "Thank goodness for those stubborn Scot tendencies!" Good to have you still with us!


*cprroy73 *- You know, from the pics it doesn't look like much algae. And in very dim light I can almost pass for handsome. :hihi: But clear vision and sharp focus will quickly dispel those illusions.

Believe me, my mediocre camera and lame photographic skills keep you from seeing the short strands of the thread algae is on _everything_. And thanks for the offer of the Hygro! So don't be surprised if you get a desperate PM from me.


*Bert *- Thanks pal. It's getting better. The corrective actions are a bit drastic, but believe me, things are improving!


*Joel *- Thanks for the great link! I'd seen that before, and it got me looking a cyclopeeze. But the only quantities I could find were something like $40 worth of 2 lbs (NOT including shipping!) that I promptly ignored. I've had this poor stomach-less fish for more than a week now. How long can it go without food?

I do have to consider the possibility that it is eating when I am not looking... picking tidbits out of the hairgrass. Goodness knows there is enough bloodworms in there that I feed the darters daily. And I don't even want to get into the discussion about how much that might be contributing to my algae!


*Mark *- Thanks for the hygro offer! _You too _might be getting a panicked PM.


*Adrian *- I hear you Adrian - thanks for the kind words. But at 2000K posts, you would hope I could lick a bit of algae. But that's OK, I've done enough other kinda-cool things around PT that I'm not going to hang my head _too _low. I promise. 

But it sure would be nice to conquer this darn thread algae!


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## jhoetzl

Hi Steve, you can get the non frozen kinds of cyclopeeze for a bit less that $40...

Try here:
http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_fish_food_argent_cyclop-eeze.asp?CartId=

And, maybe if you have a LFS or a salty specialty store (maybe in Greenwich or will the price be too high there too  ), they market a smaller portion to LFS's, called Freezerbar. Should be $18 or less. I got one for $12 locally...and it lasts and lasts and lasts...

Maybe if someone has some of the freeze dried stuff on here, they could ziplock a bit and see if it goes for the stuff?

And what about some plankton frozen from Hikari? Do any of your LFS's stock that Hikari line?

At any rate, good luck with it!
Regards,
-Joe


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## aquaphish

Scolly,

I really like that set up for the sunfish. They most likely are saying THANKS too.

Lessons learned on the fish. The best thing to do if anyone is planning to buy a fish other tan the standard ones, it is a good idea to see them feed for several days. Ask the salesperson what they eat and then ask if they can feed the fish. Check it out for several days to see if it does eat during that time. If the fish does eat then take it. Don't fall for the "I don't think it will eat we just fed it." excuse.


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## Betowess

Hey Steve, 

Is that a Dupla diffusor I see in the one pic? How is that working out? Or did you post about that yet in the other CO2 thread? I'm in the process of getting a 3 way manifold from Rex and trying to set up my Milwaukee for up to three tanks and on one of them I'm going to try using a diffusor. 

Regards your tank, Keep up the good work, because all the sudden all of the elements will fall together and bam, pretty clean tank again. You're on the home stretch now! bob


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## scolley

*Joe *- Thanks for the link to the freeze dried stuff. But in its description it is described as "red powder in the water". I'm not putting anything organic in my water - anything uneaten will just rot.

Good call on the House of Fins in Greenwich too. Thanks. I'll check it out for the freezer bar, but I'm not putting that in the water either if it is just microscopic stuff too. Too much of an algae issue to but in more organics to go uneaten.

*aquaphish *- Yeah, the sunfish seem pretty happy. But they would enjoy more overhead cover. Everythime I wind up floating something in the tank, like a bunch of plants I'm going to plant, or a chunk of riccia or something, they all fight their dominance games over who is going to be able to hover just under the floating shade. Maybe I can incoroportate some into my new scape, what ever that's going to be... now that I'm in complete re-do land.

And you are right, I should have asked to see the pipefish eat before I bought it.:icon_redf 


*Bob *- Good call on that diffuser! I was wondering if anyone would notice. It's an Azoo ceramic actually (could be the same thing as Dupla for all I know). I did mention it in Tom Barr's thread about his microbubbles. It's only temporary. I wanted to check out the supposed benefit of the "micro-bubbles" myself, to see if I saw any clear benefits before I started ripping stuff apart to put in my own DIY in-line "micro-bubble" rig.

When I first put it in I was getting pearling madness. Insane pearling really. But I became concerned that I was pushing the tank too hard, i.e. - helping the algae too. So I cut back the lighting a bit... reduced my 4 bulb hight light period down to 2 hours. Consequently the pearling has cut back a lot too.

Once the tank stabilizes I'll run a simple test:

1) One week with the Azoo diffuser turned on. Observe and record growth/algae/pearling.
2) One week with the Azoo diffuser turned off. Observe and record growth'algae/pearling.
3) Another week with the Azoo diffuser turned on. Observe and record growth/algae/pearling.
4) Another week with the Azoo diffuser turned off. Observe and record growth/algae/pearling.​
Then I'll compare notes and let everyone know. It is worth noting that I set the Azoo up such that it does not impact my normal CO2 diffussion, other than the possibility that it reduces the amount of time my solenoid is on due to the additional carbonating effect provided by the Azoo.


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## bpm2000

How bout just letting more of those lilypads go to the top? That'd look natural and fit in with your scape. You could control the area of the coverage a bit better too since there will be an anchor to the drift..?


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## scolley

bpm2000 said:


> How bout just letting more of those lily pads go to the top? That'd look natural and fit in with your scape. You could control the area of the coverage a bit better too since there will be an anchor to the drift..?


I have lily pads that go to the top now. They don't seem to like them much. It think it is because they are too small. And they are kind of a problem too, because they don't stay in the same place. As their stems grow, they move to other spots on the surface.

It seems like a natural choice of cover. Maybe what I need to do is grow a small field of lily pads at one end of the tank, where they have no where else to travel, where a constant good sized number of pads created enough cover. And the lack of traveling meant that I could plan on some nice shade plants under them.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'm gonna have to think about that a while. That could look cool!


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## scolley

*It's not working!*

Well, 1 week after replanting the tank, everything is growing nicely. I did not trim, but just 50% water change and watching ferts. But the thread algae is now on everything. Not bad mind you... you have to look close to see it. But it is there. On _everything_.

So it's time for the Hygrophila polysperma as Ted suggested. Mark (*bastalker*) has been kind enough to send some. I'll gonna stock that tank to the gills with it to see if it will turn the corner on this cr*p.

So while I have to recognize that getting beyond this may be a biomass issue, and the right kind of biomass, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I have an additional "root cause" issue that has not been addressed - excess waste products.

These sunfish are messy fish. And it is complicated by the bloodworms I feed the darters. The bloodworms sink down to the bottom where the darters live, but it sinks into the dwarf hairgrass. I suspect that it all does not get eaten, but rots away down there. But maybe not... extra food in the hairgrass could be why the pipefish is not dead yet. But I suspect that it is no coincidence that the algae is thickest in the dwarf hairgrass.

So I'll the temporary Hygrophila polysperma route. Hopefully it will be enough to turn the corner on the algae because feeding darters is always going to be tough in a planted tank... their sinking food will always get stuck in what ever is growing on the bottom.

Food from *jhoetzl*! Joe sent me the most awesome food assortment. That guy must have to seriously well fed fish! I'll not go into the full list here, but he sent me a wide array of samples to try on the pipefish. Thanks Joe!

Unfortunately the pipefish was having none of it. Bummer. I may have to go get some of those Cyclopeze freezer bars from the Greenwich LFS.


----------



## cbennett

Scolley, good luck with the thread algae battle, the tank looks great to my eyes but I know how it is when it's your own tank - the least little imperfection is completely maddening. The pipefish is beautiful! I hope you find something it will enjoy eating. What about vinegar eels? They are quite small and are aquatic so they live in the tank for several days without fouling the water. Plus, they stick to the top layer. I don't know anything about pipefish so perhaps the eels would be too small but I thought it's worth a shot.


----------



## Betowess

Well, before it might have been the light. And that was probably part of the problem. I think you are on to something with the excess food. Have you tried some deep vacuuming, maybe in quarter or 1/3 sections every 3 or 4 weeks? Just a thought.


----------



## Bert H

Steve,

Sorry to hear about the thread algae man! You have probably thought of this, but have you given your filter a good cleaning recently? I think I mentioned to you I was battling green dust algae. Well, last week I cleaned out the XP2 and this past week, lo and behold, I didn't have the problemwith the green dust all over the glass!  Granted, this is a different type of algae, but wth, it's worth a shot maybe. 

BTW, the Hemianthus will be headed out tomorrow.


----------



## bastalker

Hey Steve sorry to hear about the pipe fish! The sunfish aren't given it a hard time are they? 

I believe some of the problem might be as you mentioned... You have been throwin food left an right at the pipefish tryin to get it to eat, an it just isn't wearin any of it! The sunfish will clean up alot of it, but not all of it. Food is gonna get trapped here an there for sure. Whats the P04 readin??

I would definately do a deep vacuum like Bob mentioned. If a python is bein used, the deep vacuuming will only get some of it before half the water is gone!

Hygro will be sent tomarrow...Hope it helps!! In yer tank, you should be able to double the growth easy in a couple a weeks!!roud:


----------



## Solace

scolley said:


> These sunfish are messy fish. And it is complicated by the bloodworms I feed the darters. The bloodworms sink down to the bottom where the darters live, but it sinks into the dwarf hairgrass. I suspect that it all does not get eaten, but rots away down there. But maybe not... extra food in the hairgrass could be why the pipefish is not dead yet. But I suspect that it is no coincidence that the algae is thickest in the dwarf hairgrass.


my biggest algae problem is hair algae growing in my dwarf sag. There is realitivly no algae in the tank, execpt for this area. It is very easily removed with a long handled soft brush, and it has slowed down considerably, but i cant see any food that doesnt get ate by my beasties. I think it is just the thickness of the plants which allows the hair algae to get caught in it, and then it accumulates there and grows there. If you have good circulation i cant see the nutrient levels being too high.


----------



## scolley

cbennett said:


> What about vinegar eels? They are quite small and are aquatic so they live in the tank for several days without fouling the water. Plus, they stick to the top layer. I don't know anything about pipefish so perhaps the eels would be too small but I thought it's worth a shot.


Apparently they do eat vinegar eels. At the moment I'm looking for some live ones. I've got zero interest in starting to culture something just to find out that the pipefish won't eat them either. Good suggestion. Thanks.




Betowess said:


> Well, before it might have been the light. And that was probably part of the problem. I think you are on to something with the excess food. Have you tried some deep vacuuming, maybe in quarter or 1/3 sections every 3 or 4 weeks? Just a thought.


Bob, I don't think it has ever been a single thing, but multiple factors. Now is just the time of knocking them out one-by-one. Good suggestion on the vacuuming. I do it every almost every week. And I did it BIG, BIG time when before I replanted so much of the tank last week. So any rotting stuff in the dwarf hairgrass was fresh - as of got here this week. So I'm afraid that while excess food could be the problem, vacuuming is not the solution. I've been doing that big time. Thanks though.



Bert H said:


> You have probably thought of this, but have you given your filter a good cleaning recently?


As a matter of fact, no. I was wondering about that last week after the major plant change, but didn't hear from anyone one the point so I forgot about it. I've got two Pro II's running on this thing, so I'm counting on infrequent canister cleanings. But that could help. I'll give that a shot. I just didn't want to do that if I didn't have to.

And thanks for the Hemianthus!



bastalker said:


> Whats the P04 readin??
> 
> I would definately do a deep vacuum like Bob mentioned. If a python is bein used, the deep vacuuming will only get some of it before half the water is gone!


 Mark, my PO4 sits between 1.8 and 2.5. Should be OK IMO. As for the vacuuming, pls take a look at my response to Bob. Same applies I think. Thanks though.



Solace said:


> my biggest algae problem is hair algae growing in my dwarf sag. There is relatively no algae in the tank, except for this area. It is very easily removed with a long handled soft brush, and it has slowed down considerably, but i cant see any food that doesn't get ate by my beasties. I think it is just the thickness of the plants which allows the hair algae to get caught in it, and then it accumulates there and grows there. If you have good circulation i cant see the nutrient levels being too high.


Solace ya' ninja posted on me... had to amend this post.

Good point on the dwarf sag. But this is dwarf hairgrass... I've had dwarf sag, and this is worse! It's a really tight mass of growth. Like a green Brillo pad! What sinks in there is tough to get out without a vacuum. But I will try the toothbrush. Thanks!


----------



## RoseHawke

I don't know the habits of pipefish, but how does this fish look? Ill? You mentioned that the sunfish are "messy eaters." Is it at all possible that it's eating when you aren't looking off the remains of their meals that make it to the bottom of the tank?


----------



## scolley

RoseHawke said:


> I don't know the habits of pipefish, but how does this fish look? Ill? You mentioned that the sunfish are "messy eaters." Is it at all possible that it's eating when you aren't looking off the remains of their meals that make it to the bottom of the tank?


Ill? No, not at all. Today, as with every day, it just cruised quietly around the tank. First hanging in one place for 10 to 15 minutes, then moving somewhere else and repeating. Same thing every day.

It's apparently a remarkably "efficient" fish Cindy. It slowly, slowly cruises around the tank - I assume looking for food. But it also spends a lot of time with it's tail wrapped around vegetation, facing into the current. I assume it is waiting for food to come to come its way.

It's got a tiny snoot, about as big around as a peppercorn, that it sucks food into. And I've never seen is suck in anything. But at the same time some pipefish are only supposed to be able to live for a few days without food. This has been with me for over 10 days. So I'm hoping that it has been foraging and eating leftovers from the bottom. In this case, not the tiny crumbs left by the sunfish (though possible), but instead finding stray bloodworms in the dwarf hair grass from feeding the darters.

I can't say really, other than the fact that is should be dead, and it isn't. So either they can survive longer without food than some Internet sources say, or that it is finding food that it will eat.

I'm hoping it's the latter. Though I would like to find something that it really loved.


----------



## Curare

I use live blackworms on those who are not feeling very hungry, or have lost their appetite.

These live worms work wonders, if you can get them

What live foods have you tried scolley?


----------



## esarkipato

> What live foods have you tried scolley?


 . . . . .might be onto something. I'd turn off the filter for an hour or two, and toss some live brine shrimp or worms in there. Let 'em hunt 'em down!

That's a really cool fish by the way, I hope he is long-lived and happily-fed!


----------



## scolley

I've tried live brine shrimp, of multiple sizes... big, little, medium. I've done it with the filters off, and even squirted them a few inches in front of the pipefish with a turkey baster. So they are swimming all around its heard and snout. It doesn't care.

It is supposed to love this stuff. It is what the pet shop said they fed it. So you can understand my reticence to pay mucho denero to try new things. It shows no interest in the stuff it's supposed to eat.


----------



## esarkipato

It's not a manwich, it's a meal . . . . . . maybe he's been conditioned to fast food?


----------



## scolley

Ernie, if you mean frozen vs. live, I've done that too - under all the same conditions.


----------



## Curare

I think you need to try a deceiver, but casting across the tank will be hard.

Lefty Kreh could do it..


Acutally that's a point, what do they eat in the wild? And incidentally, does your pipefish have a sunken stomach? If he doesn't I'll wager he's snaffling food when you're not looking.


----------



## cbennett

I'll second what Curare said, it's pretty easy to tell when a fish is off their feed by looking at their stomachs. If his stomach is nice and rounded like the first photo of him, he's eating - just not in front of you.


----------



## banderbe

No offense but I have never seen a thread with more unrelated crap being posted to it in my life.


----------



## Curare

Wow Banderbe, that was really off topic. :|


----------



## banderbe

Curare said:


> Wow Banderbe, that was really off topic. :|


It's a drop in the ocean.


----------



## shuks

> No offense but I have never seen a thread with more unrelated crap being posted to it in my life.


then dont read the thread, easy as that. This thread is has helped many people including myself and I think there is tons of really good information in it. I've never seen anything on this thread that wasnt realated to planted tanks, and if you havent noticed this web page is all about planted tanks. Journals are ment for sharing pictures, information, and most importantly helping eachother out no matter what the problem may be. 

If you dont have something nice (or at least constructive) to say, dont say anything at all.


----------



## Jason Baliban

banderbe said:


> No offense but I have never seen a thread with more unrelated crap being posted to it in my life.



Bad day Barry? Or are you just in the mood to give a rediculous comment like that?:icon_ques 

jB


----------



## bastalker

banderbe said:


> No offense but I have never seen a thread with more unrelated crap being posted to it in my life.


Well wont that make ya the most popular guy at the party!!


----------



## Betowess

I'm going to mind my Ps and Qs and say nada. I'm thinking Mr. Steve has a survivor who just happens to like eating in private. There's always some food to be found in a heavily planted 80G tank... probably blown to the farthest corners by two mongo Ehiem Pros.


----------



## medicineman

Hey steve are you strict about the indeginous stuff only in that tank? I'm thinking the use of some possible fish that graze for food from the gravel (the ones that behaves like cory) or any possible local shrimp as cleaning crew? I dont know the original fauna there and you know better than me for selection. You cannot let uneaten food lying there forever just to rot. Just my two cents (is that the correct phrase you guys use right there?  )


----------



## scolley

*What kinda thread is this anyway???*

If there was a rule that said that threads in the Photo Album had to be all tank pictures, this thread would be in massive violation! Fortunately for me, that appears to be more of a guideline than an absolute stricture.

So that allows me the freedom to bring up subjects, and encourage feedback on, a large number of topic that IMO are relative my efforts in creating a beautiful biotope in my Big Clear Kahuna. :icon_wink 

That has included some rather ugly pictures of algae, and other relevant topics like bass puke, gar chasing fish out of the tank, and the feeding habits of a dieting pipefish. Unless there is moderator intervention to prevent it, that trend will continue. Those are subjects that are important to me in creating a beautiful biotope.

Every reader has the right to post here, within the bounds of proper decorum and good taste. But if you find that this thread is not your cup of tea due to these unusual diversions in topic, I would suggest spending time on some of our more picture focused threads. Planted tank has some great ones. :thumbsup: And please accept my apologies, for as long as this odd topics are directly related to my biotope IMO, and they help me be successful in creating a beautiful one, I will continue to encourage the topics.

An odd thread indeed, and I would like to thank everyone that is helping me on this documented journey.:smile: 

Hopefully it is providing a bit of amusement for many of you, and possibly providing some insight and learning opportunities to us all.


----------



## scolley

medicineman said:


> Hey steve are you strict about the indeginous stuff only in that tank? I'm thinking the use of some possible fish that graze for food from the gravel (the ones that behaves like cory) or any possible local shrimp as cleaning crew?


With the exception of a very few otto cats that I put in to help with the tread algae, I'm very strict I'm afraid. And it will be easy to remove the ottos, which I will be doing soon.

Shrimp get eaten by the sunfish. And crawfish, which are indigenous, eat plants - so they are out. My bottom dwelling cleanup crew is the rainbow darters. They scour the bottom all day. So for all my worrying, it could be that they get all the food down there. I just can't know. I know I never see it. The blood worms that fall into the dwarf hairgrass are bright red, and 30 minutes after a feeding I can't find any. So it's hard to say really.

What I hope does not happen, is that ultimately I will have to make a choice between the dwarf hairgrass or the darters. Time, and my ability to alleviate the algae will decide that.


----------



## scolley

Sorry for the third post in a row, but last night provided some good insight worth sharing...


unirdna said:


> Your tank, seemingly should be growing the plant even faster than mine, but it isn't. And this causes me to start thinking about your substrate and water parameters. I don't have any solid hypotheses, just that something about your tank, itself, is "off". Your 20g seems to be doing wonderfully. What is different about that tank? Water params? Substrate? Plant species?
> 
> My point: Before you go investing time and energy trying to remove algae, first think about why your plants aren't growing as well as they should be.


I've been troubled by this since before Ted posted this astute comment a week or two ago. In particular I've been bothered by my complete ban on micros for the last 4 months, even though I know it was responsible for algae growth.

Last night, 1 hour before the lights kicked off, I added 1ml of TMG. Just as a test. _Withing 30 minutes the tank was pearling! _Now this was after pearling had ceased for the day. So this is a pretty clear indicator that the plants need something in that TMG that they aren't getting otherwise.

Unfortunately, by the time the lights kicked off, I had multiple visible long threads of a algae - something I haven't seen in months! Normally the algae stays 1/16" long or so. But it loves the micros so much, it clearly grows like mad when it gets it. So it's a dilemma.

Clearly though, for the sake of the plants, I'm gonna have to continue to experiment with micros. Rats. It's never simple.


----------



## RoseHawke

Steve, this is a very long shot, but valleyvampiress was saying how she gets one type of algae with one brand of micros, and something else with a different brand.

Maybe try another brand besides TMG? Like I said, way long shot, but what could it hurt?


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## banderbe

Jason Baliban said:


> Bad day Barry? Or are you just in the mood to give a rediculous comment like that?:icon_ques
> 
> jB


A number of the comments have essentially nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of the thread. Sorry if I offended anyone by pointing out the truth. :icon_redf

I posted to this thread once a while back and now I am (was) subscribed to it, so many times each day I get notices in my inbox that a new post has been made. I would be glad about this if the post was a new update to Steve's tank, or comments that actually have to do with Steve's tank. Unfortunately most of it is just wasting my bandwidth, so I unsubscribed to the thread. End of discussion. Again I am truly sorry if my comment offended anyone.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> Unfortunately, by the time the lights kicked off, I had multiple visible long threads of a algae - something I haven't seen in months!


That's crazy! Usually algae thrives or dies. But, yours just continues to wait at the starting blocks with all cylinders blazing, waiting for the gun to go off :icon_neut . I'm at a loss Steve, at how to navigate through this "perfect storm". Hopefully, with the help of solid documentation, an answer will present itself.


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## scolley

*Cindy *- Good point and true! Way back months ago I tried both TMG and Seachem Flourish. The Flourish caused explosive algae growth vs. the TMG. I finally came to the conclusion that it could be due to the much larger concentration of iron in the Flourish. That's why I used the TMG - Flourish is worse (for my tank right now).

*Barry *- Thanks. Not necessary. But thanks anyway.:smile: 

*Ted *- I know it sounds nuts. I thought I was seeing things. But I wasn't. It was there, where it hadn't been before - for months.

Now granted something could have gotten stirred up, dislodged, and floated in the current to catch at multiple visible spots. Certainly possible.

But it is gone now - flagfish I assume. But it was an interesting test that I will be trying again. If it is real it should be repeatable.


----------



## Bert H

Steve, pardon me if this has been addressed somewhere in here, but have you considered/tried the Excel od route?


----------



## scolley

It has Bert. I rejected it long ago just because I want to defeat this by "natural means", which is the same reason that I've rejected insane amounts of CO2. But this is getting ridiculous, and pretty soon I'm gonna have to start compromising, and Excel is a good suggestion. Thanks.


----------



## jhoetzl

Steve, by any chance do you have any snails in there? I recently noticed something in one of my fry grow out tanks that have numerous snails in it that I never noticed before, but could have been going on for some time.
Snails that are like spiders. Is this normal, but I would swear I saw a snail repelling down something that looked like an algae thread, but was more like a 1/2lb test monofiliment line. I can't fathom that within a short time of dosing a micro, boom, you've got algae. I know you said you tried TMG and Flourish, have you tried CSM+B, or CSM+B+Fe? 

And as for the higher iron causing the bloom...not sure about that one, but you never know.

Just curious...what is your PO4 dosing like these days? I finally ran out of my phosphate I originally purcahsed (Flourish) and for the past month have been using a generic enema and have certainly noticed a change for the better. Maybe the concentration of the Flourish PO4 vs. the enema is different enough, and perhaps my plants like to have that "Oh so clean" feeling :icon_wink 
And my fish are more normal too :icon_wink


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## scolley

jhoetzl said:


> Is this normal, but I would swear I saw a snail repelling down something that looked like an algae thread, but was more like a 1/2lb test monofiliment line.


Go look at post 675 in this thread Joe, and look at the long green thread on the giant hair grass. They were just like that, just not as thick. Almost as long, just as green.




jhoetzl said:


> I know you said you tried TMG and Flourish, have you tried CSM+B, or CSM+B+Fe?


At the risk of sounding stubborn, when both TMG and Flourish cause problems, I'm comfortable that I've got a problem that is made worse by micros. Switching to another "brand" may make the problem a bit better, or a bit worse, but the problem with micros will remain IMO, just vary by degree. So I'm chasing other things. Thanks.




jhoetzl said:


> Just curious...what is your PO4 dosing like these days? I finally ran out of my phosphate I originally purchased (Flourish) and for the past month have been using a generic enema and have certainly noticed a change for the better.


This is related to the iron question. Flourish Phosphate includes iron (though they don't mention it), and months ago _anything _that added iron caused this algae to bloom - Flourish Phosphate included. That's why I suspect I do so poorly with Flourish - it is chock full of iron vs. TMG which is not. And by no coincidence IMPO, TMG does not cause as bad an algae outbreak.

That's also why I switched from Flourish liquid macros to fert from Greg Watson - I've been using the "iron free" Potassium Phosphate (monobasic) from him for months. So as long as I factor in the minor additional potassium it adds, I'm pretty comfortable with my source of PO4.

And finally, my PO4 test kit reads about 1.8 ppm today. I targeted 2.5ppm when I changed my water 3 days ago. And my autodosing routine _used _to hold N & P at whatever level I targeted, since I tore up and replanted the tank something has been _ripping through _phosphates. So I'm comfortable with the 1.8ppm reading today, and am not surprised.

Thanks for asking though.


----------



## scolley

*Pics*

OK, for the doubters out there...

This is one of my lily pipes. That algae was not there yesterday. I remember because, I squirted a syringe of 1ml TMG into it last night. If it had looked like that, I'd have noticed - believe me. And if it grew that much every day, by the end of a week it would be a wreck and I'd be compelled to clean it. But I haven't cleaned it in a couple of weeks. Why? Because it grew this stuff since I added the micros last night!











And just so I'm not moaning too incessantly. Here's what the tank looks like today. You can see that some of the Ludwigia is not even planted. I'm just floating bundles to provide biomass.










And the usual suspects...


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## jimjim

Scolley, I hav'nt looked at this thread in months. I am blwn away by how nice your tank is looking..A thumbs up to your efforts...Jim


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## yznj99

The water is so clear it looks like transparent, I have to say the white background is a nice touch:thumbsup:


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## shuks

How come out want to add as little iron as posible with your micros? Do you dose iron seperatly?


----------



## scolley

Thanks Jim! And that's no background yznj99, thats my wall about a foot behind the tank. It's "background-less".

shuks I don't dose iron separately because when I did, the algae went nuts. just as it goes nuts when I dose micros with a high iron content. And since none of my leaves are badly pale or yellowing, I assume it is not an issue - that iron is coming in from the substrate, the root tabs I put in ages ago, or the tap water.


----------



## shuks

I agree with jhoetzl. I think you should give up on the TMG and switch to CSM or SCM+B. At least give it a try, what do you have to loose? I dont see how you plants can get enough iron out of the fluorite? Ludwiga doesnt feed from its roots; it gets almost all nutreints from the water collum. 

I think you should go back do dosing iron again, but what do I know..lol

good luck scolly.

PS: you tank looks better than ever!


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## bastalker

Can we get a peek with the new additions in there Steve??roud:


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## TheOtherGeoff

have you ever thought about flag fish for algae control steve? not sure if they are from your area but could be a worthy investment


----------



## IUnknown

Steve,
I haven't been able to follow the thread, so I don't know if this has been recommended. I've noticed with my tek system that I have to keep one of the light bays off to keep things under control. I would stick with keeping 3 lamps on for 10 hours a day. I would cram that thing with fast growing stem plants. In the picture you have a good foreground but the background is lacking any mass to help out with the algae. I wouldn't get to picky with ferts, if you have tons of plants there is a lot of room for error, IMO. Cut the tops of the plants you have in that picture and replant each one leaving the base to sprout two more.


----------



## scolley

shuks said:


> I agree with jhoetzl. I think you should give up on the TMG and switch to CSM or SCM+B. At least give it a try, what do you have to loose? I dint see how you plants can get enough iron out of the fluorite? Ludwiga doesnt feed from its roots; it gets almost all nutreints from the water collum.


Thanks for the comps, and recommendation. But I just don't see it. TMG and Flourish are both GREAT micros, by all reports. If these aren't good, I can't believe anything else is going to be a lot better. But, for what it's worth, I am going to continue to try the TMG. I put another ML in yesterday, and I did not get explosive pearling, or explosive algae growth. So...

1) I was imagining things the other day (unlikely but possible IMO), and the long threads of algae were there before, as was the algae on the lily pipe.
2) Latent needs was satisfied in the plants, so explosive pearling did not happen again.​
But who knows? I'm gonna stick with the moderate micros for a while unless the algae goes insane.




bastalker said:


> Can we get a peek with the new additions in there Steve??


Mark - thanks a million for hygro! Now my tank is full, well the as full as I want it anyway. But the best part is, cprroy73 is sending some too! This is perfect! Yours filled up the tank. This next batch is gonna be over the top, which is just what I need to kill this algae. :icon_wink 

I'll snap a pick when I get this next batch planted.




TheOtherGeoff said:


> have you ever thought about flag fish for algae control steve?


You mean these?



















Thanks! Got 'em.

They are "within geographical range" of what I'm trying to do. But let me tell you, I'm real ambivalent about these fish. They do eat the really long thread algae. But they also sh*t green t~rds all over the plants. And they eat the plants too. Though I have had no trouble with the reported tail nipping.

I'm not sure they do any real good. But they do look interesting, and they could be helping, so I'm keeping 2 or 3 of them around. The ones in the pictures are males. I had some females, but they all jumped out of the tank. I think there is a message in there somewhere... :hihi: but I'm not sure what it is.





IUnknown said:


> I've noticed with my tek system that I have to keep one of the light bays off to keep things under control. I would stick with keeping 3 lamps on for 10 hours a day.


 I wish I could do that, But I've got a 6 bulb Tek which allows either 2 bulbs (not quite enough), or 4 bulbs (too much if on for too long), or all 6 (TOOO MUCH!). So I run at just over 8 hours a day with the middle 2-3 hours running 4 bulbs, the rest of the time just 2.




IUnknown said:


> I would cram that thing with fast growing stem plants. In the picture you have a good foreground but the background is lacking any mass to help out with the algae. I wouldn't get to picky with ferts, if you have tons of plants there is a lot of room for error, IMO. Cut the tops of the plants you have in that picture and replant each one leaving the base to sprout two more.


Good advice. But I'm deliberately not doing that. I've got my heart set on being ready for this next AGA contest, so I want that foreground to be really well filled in - i.e. I'm hesitant to cover it up with plants. As for the background, this is my third one... I'm trying to grow it in. So rather than filling the tank to the gills to out compete the algae, I'm temporarily trying hygro instead. It's not a plant I want for long, but I'm happy to give it a shot to get ahead of the thread algae mess.




I mentioned earlier that sent me a great food "care package" for the dieting pipefish. Well it included some freeze dried earthworms which are great! The sunfish love them. And over the last few days one has started coloring up with lots of red! It's never had that much before, and it actually looks a bit better in person. I don't know if it is the food, or the lengthening of the days. But until I'm sure, those earthworms are on the daily diet!









Thanks Joe!


And speaking of the dieting pipefish... well I've had it for 24 days now, and it's still not dead. So it's gotta be eating something. Here's a few pics of how it spends most of the day... poking it's nose in plants, rooting around in the hairgrass, looking for food.




























It definately is not fat. But it isn't wasting away either. So I gotta assume it's finding something in there!


----------



## jhoetzl

Wow Steve, looking really nice! 

So did soaking the freeze dried earthworms do it for the delivery method? 

They really absorb a lot of water back into em but takes a little while...


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

steve your tank still makes me want to go back to natives. the pipefish is looking well. alittle thing but not bad.

and those are the flagfish i was talking about. i have no problems what so ever with the one i have. works great for thread algae and leaves all the other fish and plants alone. dunno though. i jst got ina bunch at work so i may get some more.


----------



## Betowess

scolley said:


> ... I've got a 6 bulb Tek which allows either 2 bulbs (not quite enough), or 4 bulbs (too much if on for too long), or all 6 (TOOO MUCH!). So I run at just over 8 hours a day with the middle 2-3 hours running 4 bulbs, the rest of the time just 2.


Boy, 2-3 hrs. with 4 bulbs seems quite a bit too short to me. Granted my tank is a little deeper, but I believe you keep your light up a bit higher. I'm running all 4 over 7hrs without any problem. Caveat: the Aquamedic "Plantas" are a bit dimmer than 10000Ks. So I wonder if the plants need a longer blast period to help outcompete the evil one.??


----------



## bastalker

You will definately have mucho hygro for sure!! I imagine that should get things back into shape. 

Bob made an interesting point. Maybe your not utilizing enough light. that amount of light an co2, you should be able to watch the plants grow.:wink: 

Got a question for ya. Those sunfish, do you have male an females in there? The one pic is totally awsome! he has definately colored right up! I have never seen a sunfish with that bright red color. The reason I asked if you have males an females, is I would hate to see em build a 2' x 2' spawnin nest right in the middle of your foreground right before the AGA contest.:eek5: 

Good luck too! I saw the one you entered last year. Very nice. I am asuming it will be a biotope this year?


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## Livebearer101

Does the pipefish's head and head and mouth look ok? As far as my knowledge goes, they feed by simultaneous closing of the gill covers and the mouth. When the mouth is opened the vacuum is created - so if there was anything wrong with it's upper body, this might explain its lack of eating. Just my 2 pence.


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## IUnknown

> I wish I could do that, But I've got a 6 bulb Tek which allows either 2 bulbs (not quite enough), or 4 bulbs (too much if on for too long), or all 6 (TOOO MUCH!).


Steve,
You can physically remove the bulbs to get any combo you want. Not just depend on the switches.


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## scolley

*Jhoetzl *- soaking the freeze dried earthworms in a Dixie cup prior to feeding made the difference Joe. Thanks! And the fish thank you too.

*TheOtherGeoff *- I'm definately getting a kick out of the native thing. I'm not really hung up on pro-American tanks, or anything like that. I just love the fish I happened to grow up observing, and it makes me really happy to have them in my home now, in a nice looking setting. So often when you see "native" tanks in a museum or lab, they are grungy looking and algae infested. It is my goal to kinda of set the record straight on poor "native" tanks and eventually show that they don't have to look bad.

*Betwoess *- IMO 2-3 hrs with 4 bulbs is short also Bob. Or just to look at the intensity of the light (very unscientific I know) it seems like I should be able to run it longer. But a few months ago I conclusively demonstrated to myself that the algae was better with less light. But I suppose the flip side of that is that the plants are worse, and will ultimately succumb to the slow progress of the algae due to not getting enough light themselves. I'm gonna have to play with it.

*bastalker *- There are a few females in there Mark. But they are juveniles. Not sure if that matters though. I can definately remember a time in my life having some pretty impure thoughts about my little female friends that, like myself, were nowhere near old enough to drive. I suppose fish are probably the same way. So spawning nests are a possibility. I'm gonna try to control that urge by keeping the water temp down. Supposedly that works.

I hope so, because I know that I am entirely too weak willed to not cast a popping bug on top of any bream bed I see. I'd hate to have that kind of temptation in my living room!

*Livebearer101 *- Good question on the mouth. I've been watching that closely, and have observed the vacuum action you are describing. I've seen the pipefish do it when I was feeding it. I know this will sound stupid, but every time it's done it that I've seen there was nothing there. So I'm sitting there going 'Hey, why are you sucking in water? Why don't you swim 3" and suck in a nice brine shrimp?" I dunno. But I've seen it do it when food was around - just not within close enough proximity to food to actually suck something in.

*IUnknown *- Thanks. I've wondered about that Greg, but have not tried it. I suppose I should give some serious thought to changing the 4 light to a 3 light and stretching out the duration. Wasn't aware that I had that option - Thanks.

BTW - a nice computer controlled dimmer would be good too!


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## BlueRam

Steve:

I am currently testing some Goodeids in a tank that is carefully stocked with a number of algae. I am hoping that I get Ameca splendens type results. I am not sure if these are geographical correct for you but I will post results eventually.

The easy solution is to either pull bulbs or just buy a few NO T-5 to cut down output. I am yet to see the "sense" NO vs HO in action though.

I have mixed feeling about your stocking levels. Seems a bit high some times considering you are using live/frozen foods. Perhaps the sunfish could live in a pond this summer. Maybe you could plumb a pond (large stock tank under deck) into the auto-change rig. 

Otherwise looking go and keep the updates rolling.


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## Planted punk

more pics!!!!!


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## bastalker

Scolly said:


> I'm gonna try to control that urge by keeping the water temp down. Supposedly that works.


Steve!!! Bro!!! Were in CT...Bass spawn in 60 deg water, an the sunfish spawn before they do... I know, I am a bass guru!!:biggrin:



Scolly said:


> I hope so, because I know that I am entirely too weak willed to not cast a popping bug on top of any bream bed I see. I'd hate to have that kind of temptation in my living room


Ahhhhh....Bed fishin. I have pitched a jig or two into the ol spawnin beds. Have an 8.5 lber on the wall cause she didnt want that jig in her nest. I felt really bad after that though, an have never done it since. If I see a bed now, I just troll right on by!!roud: 

All this non related superfluous BS in this thread is gettin outta hand!!:hihi:


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## Betowess

bastalker said:


> All this non related superfluous BS in this thread is gettin outta hand!!:hihi:


Yeah, that's why there are only 56,262 views to date. Must be all the bass eating Amanos pics that keeps everyone coming back for more... Which brings to mind, maybe a little trolling in the Big Clear Kahuna is over due. Do I hear a sequel in the making??:icon_roll


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## Ibn

Well finally got around to reading through all 50 pages of this thread. :shock:

I can't wait to see what you have in store under your sleeves, Steve. Props for creating this great journal on the journey that you've taken so far. Keep it coming!


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## scolley

*This is war!*

*Algae on my Hygro!*
Well the hygro is all in, from bastalker and cprroy73. Really nice plants from both - thanks guys! Unfortunately this algae is killer. bastalker's went in the tank 2 days earlier than cprroy73's. It's growing and turning nice reddish on some leaves -but it's got thread algae all over it. Wow! I suppose cprroy73's is next.




















I feel like it is my fault. I needed to give the the micros a chance, and on three days this week (Monday, Wednesday and Friday) I gave the tank 1 ml TMG. Hoping this would help the plants more than the algae. Well the algae exploded.

I'm back to my "No Micros!" stance now. I had to try it, and it was still a mistake IMO.

Bert H sent me a _really nice_ bunch of Hemianthus micranthemoides, a really beautiful plant. But I've put it in my grow out tank. I don't want it subjected to this algae until it's under control.


*Excel to the rescue!*
So I've started a course of Excel algaecide treatment. I've resisted this up until now, and I'm worried about my fish. But I'm gonna give this a shot. Seeing the terrible "algae busting" hygro get covered in this stuff pushed me to this decision. It's all out war now.


*Stocking Levels?*
blueram hit on an important question. I am uncomfortable with my stocking levels, but I'm shooting for it being just right for AGA. And the feeding regimen does make things worse. So I acknowledge that I might be pushing it.

My ammonia levels always read zero. But there are a good number of fish arranged in increasing order of biomass:

2 Otocinclus vittatus - Otto cats (temporary, and worthless BTW)
1 Syngnathus fuscus - Freshwater pipefish - (8", but no bigger around than a otto cat)
2 Jordanella floridae - Flagfish (each about 2 1/2")
6 Etheostoma caeruleum - Rainbow darters (2 males @ 2 1/2", 4 females @ 2")
5 Lepomis megalotis - Longear sunfish (5 juveniles 2-3" each)
3 Lepomis marginatus - Dollar sunfish (2 @ 3 1/2", 1 @ 4 1/4")​
I don't know how the old inch/gallon rules break down, but I think my total fish load is about the same as three or four big discus in terms of volume. Is that too much?


*blueram *- by "Ameca splendens type results" I assume you are looking to your Goodeids to be good algae eaters? Good luck! Too bad I can't consider them - wrong geography.

*Planted punk* - here pal...

The tank with all the hygro in everywhere. Not much of a 'scape with it stuck in all over. But I do have to admit that I like all the light green color. Too bad I'm gonna have to rip it out after it does its job.:icon_sad: 











*Mark *- I don't catch bedding bass. But I will happily catch bedding bream (sunfish)... a ton of fun on a flyrod. I'm real familiar with the bream bedding season here in Connecticut - typically hoping around the first 2 weeks of June. But you might be off on that water temp. Those are good 
numbers out in mid water. But the sunfish spawn in the shallows that are warmed by the afternoon sun, and I suspect you will find those temps quite a bit higher. Also, keeping the photo period down is also supposed to help suppress that instinct. I hope.



*Bob *- as soon as I can figure out how to get a good back cast in my living room, I've got a sequel just waiting!


*Eric *- Thanks pal. But I absolutely cannot imagine reading all of this thread! It's "my" thread, and I wouldn't even do that! Thanks though.


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## bastalker

Steve... I tell ya what bud, you have the most patience I have ever seen!!:biggrin: 

I would think that there are plenty of plants in there now! 

I feel for ya though. There is nothing worse than beatin yer head against the wall tryin to figure out what caused the algae and why. Then tryin to get rid of it all. Ya here do this, do that, and whatever ya try doesn't seem ta work.
I gave up last year for the same reasons.

For me finding that happy medium between happy plants, and unhappy algae is pretty tough at the moment. I personally find that if I dose easy, the algae stays pretty much at bay, but the plants start showing deficiencies an vice versa.:icon_roll It is easier for me than it is for you though. I have a small fish load, half the lighting, an a smaller tank.

This is one of the hardest things I have ever been new at!! Usually when I start a project, I can get a handle on things pretty quick. This has been a humbling experience for sure!! 

I dunno Steve, maybe we are makin it harder than it has to be.:icon_wink


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## shuks

Hay scolly, maybe you should give back you ottos, and try a diffrent bach. They work great for me as long as I dont feed them. I fined when I feed my ottos, they stop eating algy and depend on the food I give them. So I stoped feeding them and they eat algy like MAD!


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## bastalker

Been doin alot of readin on the Flourish Excel method. Looks like that could work for ya. Then balance the tank out.

Hydrogen peroxide method looks pretty good as well! I am sure you have seen both methods. Pick what suits ya best. 

If one of these methods work for ya, I am sure the plants an EI will take care of the rest.roud:


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## Marc

Seems like you have a lot of light in the tank Steve. With that much light there's not much room for error. By looking at your plants you seem to be bottoming out on ferts and or not enough co2. The L. Reppens seem pale and so does the Hygro. Since the plants are not growing very fast (limited), algae easily takes over with the addition to micros. You can cram the tank full of plants all you want but if they aren't being fed properly, algae will take over.

You can also lift the light fixture higher to slow things down a bit.

Hope you get things going.

Marc


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## scolley

*Since war's been declared, I'm launching multiple offensives...*

Marc - thanks for the input. It is good conventional thinking, but incorrect IMO. The hygro is pale. But the hygro you are looking at had only been in the tank for 4 days in that shot. Could be lots of reasons why the new shoots on the plant are pale. Including _not enough_ light.

The plants are getting plenty of macros. I've got autodosers hooked up, and any day you want you can run a test and you'll find N&P very close to their targets of N:14 and P:20. K I am targeting 25-30, but can't test that. And I use 2 test kits for NO3, PO4, KH and GH. One set kits I use twice a week, and the other set I pull out every few weeks just to make sure that both sets of kits agree with each other - since I don't trust test kits a lot. And right now they agree.

And my CO2 is blasting. We can talk all day about how much, but my calculated CO2 ranges from a low of 33 then the SMS122 clicks in, and it goes up to 53. And that's right after water change. Something is driving my KH up (I suspect the 2 bags of Eco-Complete I tossed in to fill in the hole the stump left), and by the end of the week the range is more like 39-62. IUnknown has suggested the newer method of checking CO2 ppm by observing the pH difference between an out-gassed tank sample and actual water in the tank. I'll try that. But since my pH probe is fairly new, and recently calibrated, I'll be surprised if I'm off much.

And last week I added micros - unusual for me. So that pic had the benefit of the micros.

So I'm inclined to believe it is not the ferts. In the middle of the day I get pretty solid pearling. That just should not be happening if I'm starving the plants. 

I do keep my temps lower than most people on this board - usually 72-73. That will account for some slower growth. But I'm inclined to believe the problem is the light. As in not enough.

I've posted my lighting schedule a number of times, and most people with Teks are running more light. So I increased the lights in the tank. So far the results look promising.

*Multipe offensives to win the war means too many changes to tell... *
Since I've declared war on this algae, I'm afraid I've lost all ability to tell what change is responsible for an improvement - if any happens. My normal tendency to change one thing at a time to understand cause and effect has been tossed out the window. Instead I'm doing everything I can to beat this stuff, and will not be able to know which made the difference, if anything does.

So far I have:

1) Started an _Excel Treatment _- not too aggressive, but 35ml on day 1, and 15 ml per day thereafter.

2) _Filter cleaning _- even though they were cleaned just a few months ago, I cleaned one Pro II this week, and will clean the next one next week after this newly cleaned one has a chance to re-establish itself a bit.

3) _Increased light _- brought my photo period up to 9.5 hours a day, with 3.5 hours running 4 bulbs for a 208 well reflected T-5 noon burn. That's an additional noon light level hour inserted into my old schedule.

4) _Aggressive algae removal _every other day. Luckily this stuff just easily rubs off. Just takes a lot of time.

5) _Trimmed my hairgrass _down to nubs. The dwarf hairgrass (that I desperately want to hang on to!) has been a haven for this algae, so I cut it all way - hoping the hairgrass will bounce back.

6) _Water polishing_ - dropped a HOT Magnum with the micron filter on the tank to help suck traveling spores out of the water column.

7) _Fish food reductions _- I'm cutting the fish back to zero food for about 3 days. Then I'll go back to normal schedule to see if I can observe any change in algae. Which should be easy, since at the moment the tank is looking pretty good.

8) _Tried micros_ - but it caused an algae explosion. If, and only if, the above treatments don't work, I'll give it another shot.​
So now it's just sit back, watch, and wait. And try that new method to confirm my CO2 level.

Oh yeah, as an interesting side note - because it IS A CHANGE - I turned off my UV. This is recommended for the Excel treatment. If my tank turns around, this is another possible factor in any reason for improvement - as an indictment of UV's killing "good" bacteria. It is worth noting that my water clouded up for about 36 hours. This has been reported in the Excel treatment sticky. Mine cleared up, but I suspect that the condition may not be caused by the Excel, but by a minor green water bloom that happens when you take a tank off its UV addiction.


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## RoseHawke

Scolley, for what it's worth, it was suggested that I half my light until my plants settled in when I did my new set-up. Which I did (110 watts or 2wpg on a 55, you'll recall it was fairly lightly planted.) I STILL got algae, quite a bit of hair/thread algae all over everything, and the plants just weren't doing much with that amount of light. Dang stuff just wasn't going away. So I said to heck with it, I've got algae all over everything anyway, the plants can't out-compete if they're not getting enough light to grow, so went ahead and turned my other bank on. 'Course I also did the excel thing at the same time







. Within about a week the plants took off, the green algae was reduced by 80%, the brown algae disappeared, and things were finally going good. 

One thing was my fish at the time _did not_ like the excel treatment as I was going pretty heavy at it, about the same amount as you and this is a 55. I only had 5 zebra danios at the time and ended up losing two of them. However one of those was probably weak anyway after a trip through the diatom filter . . . :icon_roll Oddly enough the shrimp didn't seem to care.

Good luck in the battle!


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## scolley

*Light's a funny thing...*

Thanks Cindy. I'm hoping that this level of Excel is appropriate. You experience confirms my suspicion that many people dose this at a risky level. So I'll watch closely - I think they are all real healthy - because I really don't want to kill any fish.

As for the light, I'm in full agreement with you. I confirmed months ago that the light made the algae worse, and less light improved the rate of algae spread/growth. Unfortunately I think it is also directly responsible for the the point Unirdna made earlier - the plants aren't thriving - so any algae battle will always be a losing battle until that changes. I think the lack of light has been a factor there.

So it's "_Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!_" Turning up the lights to see if it is what the plants have been needing for so many months.


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## Phil Edwards

Steve,

Your excel dosage sounds just right for a 75g tank. I was dosing 40mL 2-3x/week in a no-CO2 tank using excel as the C source. Lighting was a 4x65w PC Corallife fixture. I doubt your plants are receiving insufficient light, especially with the increased photoperiod. 

Are you adding Magnesium and Calcium to your tank? I just read the most recent 2 pages in the thread and may have missed you saying so. Plants can still be chlorotic due to insufficient Mg even though there's enough Fe and K floating around. Likewise, Ca is important for building new tissues in the tippy-top of the plants' growing zones. If you're getting slow growth in this system it may be due to that. Is it the new growth that's looking ratty or the older? 

I'm a big fan of Equilibrium as a general suppliment and as a specific to fight chlorosis. It's got just about the right combination of Ca, Mg, K, with some Fe to boot. I still dose those separately too in order to fine-tune the levels to where I want them but it's a great one-shot multi suppliment for getting higher levels. It's really hard to overdose on too, which I like a lot.

Hope things start getting better for you,
Phil


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## Betowess

Phil Edwards said:


> Are you adding Magnesium and Calcium to your tank? I just read the most recent 2 pages in the thread and may have missed you saying so. Plants can still be chlorotic due to insufficient Mg even though there's enough Fe and K floating around. Likewise, Ca is important for building new tissues in the tippy-top of the plants' growing zones. If you're getting slow growth in this system it may be due to that. Is it the new growth that's looking ratty or the older?


If you have a calcium shortage, you'll be able to see it in curled/cupped/distorted new leaves of your L repens etc. Mg. defieciency would show up with yellow spots and yellowing of old leaves... You can check the deficiency chart on Chuck's Gadd's site. You prolly know this... http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm
I agree that the Equilibrium is a good product, albeit a little spendy.


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## scolley

*Phil *- Hey! Thanks for replying! Given that you know my AGA contest intentions this year, I'm quite impressed by your selfless aide to a potential competitor! Thanks.:thumbsup: 

I knew when I brought up ferts, I'd have to go down the road that you brought up - was hoping to avoid it - but here goes...

I dose Mg every week in the form of Epsom Salts to bring my GH up. Out of the tap my water has KH 1.75, GH 3. I use baking soda to and Epsom Salts to keep that up to around KH 4.75 and GH 5. So the tank should be getting Mg.

Ca is a different story, and as Bob mentioned, I watch my plants for signs of Ca deficiency. And I don't see it. I suppose I could start dosing Ca, or put shells in my canister. But I'm not seeing signs of deficiency, so I haven't been worrying about it. Maybe I should reconsider.

As for the "new growth ratty" vs. "old growth ratty", the answer is - neither. The pics that Marc pointed out are from a plant that had just come in the mail and was stuck in the tank a few days before. There are several stems that haven't made the trip well. That was one, and it attracted algae.

I'm hesitant to put in Equilibrium due to the iron. I'm highly suspicious of anything that adds iron to this tank. I think the thread algae loves it. 


*Bob *- thanks for the pointer to Chuck's page. It is my primary source for diagnosing deficiencies (or excess). And my plants do not have any of the described Ca shortage symptoms. That's why I haven't been worrying about it.

Here are some "new growth" pics - from plants that have been in there a few weeks. The algae is a real problem, but I don't think nutrient deficiency is...


















And a picture of the tank today. It seems to be growing OK.









That is when you compare it to a pic taken 5 days ago.


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## organic sideburns

Wow, your tank has a great balance of colors! I am so envious lol. Very colorful tank, lots of shades of greens and yellows and reds, looks great!

You have created alot of depth with all those bunches of plants also...


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## fredyk

I love this left brain stuff, but it has become right brain without the joys of artistic accomplishment.

I'm an algae grower, but, after reading about 40 pages. you've really never established a baseline for this tank, with the exception of your contest photo

yuve been quite the scientist, building your tank, documenting with photo essay, getting advice and feedback. very left brain; let it relax; enjoy the right side brain activity. just enjoy the gardening.

think outside the box, get more plants. there is nothing even reaching the surface. get lots of plant mass that'll eat up nutrients. the grasses just don't do it, it seems. then maybe mucho later, replace one biomass with a suitable biotype substitute.

In my tank, when I rip out one plant mass in favor of something new, boom goes off and algae. just let it go and grow, fill up with plants algae go away

“just let the river flow” 

Mark
♪♪♪ 
I'M BEING RIGHT BRAIN; NOT MINDING IF IT'S PRONOUNCED RIGHT OR SPELLED RIGHT; JUST GOING FOR EFFECT


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## Phil Edwards

Steve,

From the looks of it all you need is time. Everything's looking great and appears to be getting enough intensity of light. Perhaps the photoperiod increase will help your plants grow more, to the detriment of the algae. I believe I'm getting the same problem in my tank. The lights are off most of the day but there's decent ambient light and I think it's aiding algae growth since the CO2 is hooked into the light's timer. 

It may just be that you need herbivores. Algae happens in all tanks, it's just a matter of how much other stuff is in there to eat it. 

For what it's worth, I'm not entering the biotope division for a while. I'm recently separated and had to put my decorative/diverse fish into the 75, which was going to be my biotope. If I can come up with obscure Australian plant species it'll be a biotope, but until then I'm happy to help you out with yours! It's about time someone from the US got 1st place with a planted tank in that division. :thumbsup: 

Regards,
Phil


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## lumpyfunk

scolley said:


> 5) _Trimmed my hairgrass _down to nubs. The dwarf hairgrass (that I desperately want to hang on to!) has been a haven for this algae, so I cut it all way - hoping the hairgrass will bounce back.


you probably know this already but if you use an oral syringe to dose your excel you can spot treat algae. I had great success with this in my tank.


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## Marc

Looking at this picture, I can see it is most likely a deficiency problem. If the plant was not getting enough light, it would be on the greener side. In this picture its pale yellow. The red colors shows you have enough light.


What are you Nitrate levels like at the end of the day? Are you dosing Iron?

Have you tried uping the nutrients at all?


scolley said:


> weeks. The algae is a real problem, but I don't think nutrient deficiency is...


----------



## scolley

Marc said:


> Looking at this picture, I can see it is most likely a deficiency problem. If the plant was not getting enough light, it would be on the greener side. In this picture its pale yellow. The red colors shows you have enough light.
> 
> 
> What are you Nitrate levels like at the end of the day? Are you dosing Iron?
> 
> Have you tried uping the nutrients at all?


Wow! This is gonna be interesting Marc. Lemme come back to this...


*organic sideburns *- Thanks pal. But if I were you, I'd save my envy for a tank that wasn't chewed up with algae.:hihi: 


*fredyk *- Where have you been dude? I've needed that good advice! It's not the destination - it's the journey. And if you don't believe it, go try and ask your great grandparents what they think about that question.

Thanks for the reminder.:smile: I'd forgotten all about how much I used to enjoy just looking at the fish!


*Phil *- Sorry to hear about your bad news. But I welcome the chance to get the good advice. So welcome aboard! Maybe we can make this a team effort... pull one in for the USA together!


*lumpyfunk *- Lump, come on... you know I'm a master of the obvious. I did that first. Didn't do a d*mn thing. Which is another reason why I'm going conservative on the Excel... the spot treatment on the hairgrass did nothing to indicate that it works on this algae.


*Marc *- OK, back to the fun stuff!

First - The color correction on my camera is defiantly off. My reds are good - but not quite that good. And the hygro in question is not pale yellow. It's light tannish green. But it IS on the light green side, even if it has brown tones, and even browner veins.

My nitrate levels swing between 12 and 14 ppm. The daily autodose raises it to 14, the plants chew through 2 and then we start all over the next day.

Have I tried upping the nutrients? First, let's make sure we are dealing with a level playing field... My autodosers dose EVERY DAY. So the targets people bandy about here begin to mean a little less because I'm not undergoing large multi-day swings. My ferts stay within a very tight band. So that said, Nitrates are 12-14, Phosphate is 2.0 to 2.5, and Potassium is targeted to 30, that one is obviously a bit less certain. I target the 50% water I change every week to 30ppm, and then toss in a bit more K2SO4 every day, on top of the small amounts that get in through the daily KNO3 and KH2PO4 doses. 

I stubbornly refuse to embrace levels higher than that. I know it's popular right now. And some day I'll get up on a soapbox about why I believe our tendencies to "overdose" macros is boneheaded IMO. But not yet - I'm holding my tongue about that little piece of planted tank mythology for now. So for the moment, I'll just say that I'm hard pressed to believe this level of macros is not sufficient.

As for iron... that's a good question because no, I am definately not dosing for iron. Anything with iron in it sets this algae off like gangbusters. So because of that, I've been real attentive to signs of iron deficiency.

And unless I miss my reading of things, the new leaves on a plant that has barely been in the tank a week being pale, when all the other new leaves are vibrant, is not an indication of iron deficiency. But is instead just an indication that that particular stalk has not quite made the transition to the new environment yet. Other stalks that came in at the same time have very green new leaves.

But I must admit you might be on to something. But I don't think it's macros. And I don't think it's iron.

Love to know your thoughts. Thank for the help.:thumbsup:


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## bastalker

Hey Steve. The tank is lookin much better these days!! 

Marc has got a good point as far as the plants are concerned. My hygro is not as vibrant as it use to be, and it a direct correlation of iron deficiency. I do not dose iron. Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont believe there is enough if any iron in (CSM+B). So in short, I am not dosing Fe.

IMO... Not dosing Fe will result in the situation Marc is describing. The plants will just not grow as fast, an definately not grow to there full potential. Be pale colored etc...Plants not allowed to grow fast and furious, will result in algae. Obviously this is just one small cause, but it is a cause. I look at your tank with the lighting you have, the co2 levels, the ferts, the hygro should be doubling that size in 5 days. Mine use to!! They have not really done much after the big prune. I have a few stems that will still grow an inch or so a day, but for the most part they have really slowed right down. I have read alot on both sites in regards to this, an Marc hit the nail on the head! Lack of Fe. I really dont believe that dosing iron would cause the algae, unless it is being overdosed. It is just one of the components that plants need. Anything in the equasion that will hinder plant growth will simply be takin advantage of by algae.

Please dont get me wrong by all means. I am not saying that you have algae because you dont dose Fe. I am saying that your plants might not be growing to thier full potential by not dosing it. I definately know mine are not at the moment,and I will remedy the situation in short order.

I have followed your thread for quite awhile as you know. Your parameters all check out with the nutrients. Your lighting is great. I really think you need to check into your co2 saturation. As Tom B. says plants dont lie. I honestly think you need more co2 in your tank. Get those fish gasping for air!!! Then tweak it back a bit. This with your Excel treatment (and Fe) might just get ya back on track


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## Betowess

Seems to me that Marc is right about you having enough light. And Fredyk put in the magic word, more plants. The plants you have look pretty darn healthy to my "green" eyes. I am still guessing its too much macros. Are you testing NO3 with Lamotte. Prolly are. Because basically its either too much light or too many nutrients that's causing the prob. And not enough of an army to use up the too much. Just my idea...


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## bastalker

Betowess said:


> Seems to me that Marc is right about you having enough light. And Fredyk put in the magic word, more plants. The plants you have look pretty darn healthy to my "green" eyes. I am still guessing its too much macros. Are you testing NO3 with Lamotte. Prolly are. Because basically its either too much light or too many nutrients that's causing the prob. And not enough of an army to use up the too much. Just my idea...


He has more than enough plants IMO. He has a NO3 reading between 12-14 ppm regularly. PO4 is in check.

It has been proven that lack of co2 with regular ferts causes BBA, which is his main concern at the moment. Lack of KNO3 causes BGA. He doesnt really have this concern. What Steve needs is to get his plants growing as fast and efficiently as he can.

I really dont think his lighting is an issue. His nutrients are in check according to his testing. Now granted, some of his test kits may be outta whack, but its up to the plants to explain what is wrong with the big picture. At the moment he isn't dosing Fe. With the plant mass he has he should dose it IMO. Tom B has stated that excess of PO4, or KNO3 will not cause algae, but lack of co2 will. Of course you dont want these two off the scale, but it looks to me like he has everything pretty much in check if his test kits are semi accurate.


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## Betowess

Bastalker, I think you misunderstood me. I was agreeing with the other Marc that he DOES have enough light. But I don't think he has enough plants because there is still algae in there. Enough plants would be a total jungle to choke off the evil thread... I am thinking the NO3 test is off is all. I thought this was thread algae, not BBA at this point. Just clarifying. Its probably either too much light, or too many nutrients from fish or ferts.


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## bastalker

Man is Steve gonna have alot of readin to do now!! :biggrin: 

Bob, I know what yer sayin about the plant thing. With the amount of Hygro he received, That should have been pretty much all ya saw within a week! That hygro should be over taking his tank. Mine grows faster with half as much light. You can say what ya want, call me stubborn etc... I still think Steve is lacking co2!


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## scolley

*You guys are killin' me...*

OK, (Steve sighs deeply) here goes...


*LIGHT*
The reds you see are primarily new - they have occurred _since _I turned up the lights. So I assume it is _because _I turned up the lights, and now I have _enough _light, where the previous lack of red showed I didn't have enough before. Overall here we are not talking about a massive change going from 8 hour photo period to a 9.5 hour one, from a 2 hour 4-bulb noon condition to a 3.5 hour noon condition. The extra hour and a half of 4-bulb moved me from a "little red" to a "lots of red" Ludwigia stance.

And don't forget, I've proven that this algae will take over the tank in low light. So I think the light is just about right now. 


*CO2*
No one is questioning whether my stated (calculated) CO2 levels are adequate, I don't think. What is in question should be is whether my numbers are accurate, i.e. - am I getting a good pH an dKH readings?

I tested my pH probe about two months ago with reference solution. But I've had one probe go bad. This could be another. Will repeat my test with a reference solution today, and calibrate if required. I'm partially colorblind, and pH test kits give me fits. Everyone I've ever seen leaves me scratching my head, wondering what kind of reading I'm getting. The colors really throw me, so that is not much of a help. But I've set aside some water for a "differential pH reading" between the tank and standing, out-gassed tank water. The difference in pH should tell the story. But again, that will require a decent reading from my pH probe. Maybe I'll try to confirm the reading with a test kit.

As for the KH, as I mentioned before I check my test kit with a 2nd test kit periodically. They are both AP kits. Steveo has not sprung for Lamotte yet. But I am inclined to trust them because I have been keeping meticulous tank maintenance records for years now. And I've had to adjust the pH of my tanks with baking soda for quite a while. And while there is a bit of weekly variance, the amount of baking soda my records show that I put in my tanks after a water change has been very, very consistent for a few years now. So if my AP dKH test kit is wrong, it is consistent with a long string of equally wrong AP kits. No - I trust the AP dKH kit.

I'll be confirming the accuracy of my pH probe today, and thus my calculated CO2 levels.


*IRON*
In months prior, I've noted significant increases in algae when anything with iron in it was added to the tank. And just last week I went back to trying TMG to the tank - 3 small doses, alternating days, only 1 ml at a time. And as expected, the algae went nuts on me.

But at the same time, you can't ignore the pale color of the hygro leaves. Need more iron? Maybe. Do I want to watch my algae explode to test this? No.

Right now, with the multiple fronts I'm fighting this on, there is less algae in the tank then there has been in many months. More importantly, _the plants are growing faster than the algae is spreading_. For the moment I'm willing to hold the current course.

More micros, including iron, will come later... when I know that the plant mass has achieved a level that I can be confident that it can absorb it quickly. That is unless it seems that the hygro just does not flourish in this tank, which will take a few weeks to tell. And if they are not doing well, iron and micros will be the first thing I reach for.


Thanks for the advice guys. I'll let you know how the CO2 check turns out.


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## scolley

*bastalker wins the prize! it was the CO2!*

*And an indictment of high tech tanks...*

It was the CO2! And my maintenance of my in-line pH probe was to blame!


*Differential CO2 Testing*
This morning as the lights came on, the SMS 122 was reading 6.4. So I whipped out my AP test kit to confirm that, and to test some tank water I set aside yesterday morning to let it outgass.

Test kit said tank water pH was 6.8
Test kit said outgassed water pH was 7.5 to 7.6
Using the differential CO2 chart found here
That implies that my CO2 was currently between 15 and 19 ppm.​But my SMS 122 swings between 6.4 and 6.6. If my current 6.4 reading was really 6.8, that would mean my 6.6 reading could be actually 7.0. If that is true, then using the same CO2 differential chart...

Tank water high extrapolated to pH 7.0
Test kit said outgassed water was pH 7.5 to 7.6
Using the same CO2 chart here
That implies that my CO2 was sometimes as low as 9.5 to 12​So using an AP test kit and differential testing, it appears my my pH could have been swinging from a possible low of 9.5 to a possible high of 19ppm. So I needed to deteremine which reading was wrong - the AP test kit or my SMS 122 connected pH probe.


*Testing the probe*
I removed my pH probe from its in-line housing and found some gunk wedged in the probe tip. I tested tank water with the gunk still on the probe and it still read 6.4.

So I did a one point test (using 7.01 solution) and got 7.1. So I adjusted the drift, ran a two point test (7.01 and 4.01 solutions) and it tested perfectly. Then I tested the tank water again, now that I had corrected the 0.1 drift and cleaned off the probe tip, and it read 6.8. Same value as the AP test kit!

So when my probe read pH 6.4, it was really 6.8! And rather than swinging CO2 ppms between the low 30s to low 50s as I thought, I've been swinging from around 10 to less than 20!


*Conclusions*
I've been off by around 0.4 for as much as a couple of months! And it was all my fault!:icon_cry: I had apparently inserted the pH probe too into the in-line tube it sits in when I calibrated it a few months ago. That subjected it to garbage flowing through my tubings. So I've been sitting back stupidly thinking "I calibrated that probe recently, and it's new, so I don't have to worry about that... so CO2 readings must be right." _Wrong_.

Holey Smokes! Mark wins the prize! And and I'm excited to think that I might actually have plants that start _growing _now!


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## Bert H

Yeah, sometimes we put too much faith in our high tech gadgets. But it's good to know you may have found your answer! It's funny, one of the first things we say to folks who are having algae issues is always to make sure that the CO2 is up there, I guess we all need to remember that.


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## RoseHawke

Cool roud:! Hope this does it for ya Steve!

I know about the color thing. What gives me fits is that a translucent sample of a fluid is NOT going to exactly match a color printed on a card no-how no-way. All I could ever do was give it my best guess which is why I finally went ahead and got a new probe myself (finally went with Pinpoint. Besides the color what sold me on that one was that it came with the $0.59 suction cup :icon_lol:,) and figured out what I'd THOUGHT was 6.4 was probably closer to 6.8.)

I do know that everybody was at the top of the tank this morning so I've backed off on my CO2 a bit.


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## unirdna

Oh Steve...

I know more about pH probes than anyone should know. I use and service a $10,000 pH meter on a regular basis at work. 

...and knowing what I know, I chose NOT to use a controller on my tank . Meters are only as good as their probes (are only as good as their calibration curve(are only as good as the fluids...)). When can I expect you to defect to the light-side.? :hihi:. The only tanks in danger of severe pH swings are those with very very very low KH, or (more commonly) those with a lot of surface vegetation. Looking at your tank, I'd put a $100 bet down that says it wouldn't fluctuate more than .2pH day/night if you ran your pH 24/7.

Just thought I'd add myself to the list of "friends" busting your chops :hihi:. Kick a man while he's down...


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## scolley

Well at the risk of turning this thread into yet another argument about using a controller and solenoid vs. good needle valve 24x7...

I'm FULLY confident that my tank would be fine without the controller, using a nice needle valve as so many of you do. But with my poor color vision, pH charts give me fits! And my water is pretty soft, so if it's not buffered right the swings can be nasty.

A controller has provided me the opportunity to stop wringing my hands over trying to interpret pH color charts. And FWIW, some of you may recall that I was away for a number of weeks recently when my CO2 tank ran out. And that controller saved my biscuits by keeping the tank from dumping.

So while I will readily admit that a controller has its drawbacks, and putting the probe in-line as I have makes it even worse, I love not having to anguish over pH charts and knowing that my high-travel job does not mean that I have to live in fear of a CO2 tank dump. (sorry - massive run-on sentence!)

*Ted *- Thanks for the kick.
*Cindy *- Hope you get yours straightened out!
*Bert *- You are right about the gadgets.


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## shuks

> Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont believe there is enough if any iron in (CSM+B). So in short, I am not dosing Fe.


You are wrong... That is the most ridiculuos thing I've ever heard!


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## bastalker

shuks said:


> You are wrong... That is the most ridiculuos thing I've ever heard!


Thanks for the correction shuks!:eek5: 

I guess I worded that pretty bad. I shoulda said not enough Fe. I need to dose extra.

Sorry for the thread hijack Steve!!:icon_redf 

Glad you got things on track again.. I imagine you will see everything take right off now!


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## Marc

scolley said:


> Holey Smokes! Mark wins the prize! And and I'm excited to think that I might actually have plants that start _growing _now!


Are you talking about me?


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## scolley

OK, setting the record straight...

I appreciate all the help I've gotten here. But bastalker (Mark) got the prize for ID'ing a REAL serious problem... my mistake on my pH probe causeing me to have a serious CO2 deficiency - about 1/3 the CO2 I thought I was dosing.

So the hat's off to a great long distance diagnosis.

That said, I sure Marc (spelled different!) is right about the iron. I'm sure the tank could use more. But at the moment I think it helps the algae more than the plants. So until that is under better control the plants will have to be a tad iron shy. But with my CO2 straightened out, and a tank full of hygro, I'm sure that won't take too long!

Thanks for all the help.:icon_wink


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## bastalker

Hey Steve. Glad we got it all figured out. I cant wait to see how the tank will look in a couple of weeks! 

I will be closely watching the swap an shop ta see if a butt load of hygro winds up in there!:wink:


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## scolley

Just a quick update...

Have been diligent about my algae fighting:

Continuing Battle Strategy
1) Excel Treatment - 15 ml daily
2) Filter cleaning - both clean now
3) Increased light - moderate increase
4) Algae removal - daily
5) Trimming - any plant with excess algae
6) Water polishing - on most of the time
7) Fish food reductions - cutting back and observing
8) Micros - watching plant health, will add later
9) Hygro - letting it grow wild!​
And with your help, figured out adn corrected my CO2 problem. And now actually have it up to the levels I've been previously claiming. _The results are absolutely evident_.

The water is crystal clear, and the growth is measurable, and the color is richer. After only about 2 days! _Amazing_.

All I can say for the algae though, is that it is at least not getting any worse.

So I suspect in a week I'll have pics of a much more lush tank. Change is happening fast now, with all the pieces apparently in place at last. Expect pics in a week.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> All I can say for the algae though, is that it is at least not getting any worse


That's my experience, Steve. The two don't happen at the same time. First, conditions improve; then, algae goes away (it varies for different types).

Look forward to the future photo update. Your tank is not just yours anymore, you know. It has been adopted by 1/2 the forum :hihi:.


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## RoseHawke

unirdna said:


> "...Your tank is not just yours anymore, you know. It has been adopted by 1/2 the forum :hihi:."


This is true roud:. . .


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## scolley

*Not my tank?*

Agreed Ted and Cindy. This has not been _my _tank for quite a while, but has been _our _tank since before it even held water.:wink: 

But I kinda like it that way. Not just "misery loves company" and all that... but just the wonderful help I have received from all of you (that means _y'all _Cindy) all these many months.

So thanks folks! Our tank has some great days a-comin! And I look forward to our enjoying that together.:thumbsup:


PS - just to manage expectations... once this algae gets cleared up (and it will get cleared up) there will be an "information blackout" time leading into the AGA contest. Once the tank starts rockin', I plan on drawing the curtain on both pics and information... hoping for a "Wow!" surprise effect when it hits AGA. The plans for that layout are already on the drawing board...


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## Oqsy

scolley said:


> Not just "misery loves company" and all that...


If that tank is making you miserable, I'll gladly take it and all the inhabitants off your hands anytime  

So steve, it's been a month or two since I've chimed in here... I have to say I love the pipefish. I've seen those around here in an LFS (the same one that had the gar) occasionally, but never knew they were natives! Your flagfish are the most colorful I've ever seen, and your sunfish is looking top dollar with that new diet  I'm glad you figured out your pH probe issue, and hope the CO2 levels are now to your plants liking (and algae's dismay). Just keep an eye on that tank pressure gauge and don't let it empty!  Great work, and honestly, a little algae headache is nothing to beat yourself up over. I wish there was a site somewhere with pics of all the amano tanks that were in an algae-infestation stage (there is NO way that he's put together as many tanks as he has, and none have had an algae outbreak or two, although it's probably heresy to say so). Great work, Steve! Even the interim "regrouping" scape you have going now is more attractive than any planned layouts I've used. Keep truckin'!

Chris


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## scolley

*Micros????*

Thanks Chris! For those of you that don't know, Chris (Oqsy) has been a massive help to this tank.:thumbsup: Including (but not limited to) sending plants that would have looked great if my fish did not eat them.:hihi: 

I mentioned in my last post that things are happening fast (at last!), but that brings it's own form of problems. I've got lot's of new growth, but that too is still coming in somewhat pale. So, I've heeded _Marc's _advice and looked to iron. But I didn't dose just iron, I wimped out on my "no more micros!" stance and gave a squirt of 2 ml of TMG.

WOW!

With the extra CO2, now this apparently could really be used. But WHAT A TWO EDGED SWORD! 

On one hand, the algae just had a field day. I mean really bad. Fortunately it's just that wimpy thread stuff that is easily rubbed off leaves - 15 minutes manual removal and its floating around to be removed by the filters.

But on the other hand, WOW. All the Ludwigia took it upon themselves to produce tight beautiful buds. Like rose buds really... tight, compact, rich in color. It's as if all of a sudden they had to put out more leaves than stem growth could keep up with, and rather than producing a pair of leaves every 1/2", had to try to cram 4 pairs of leaves into 1/2" in a single day.

So now I'm in a quandry... more micros? No more micros because of the algae? Or sit back and observe a bit more?

One thing is for certain... this is a learning experience, and it for darn sure is not boring!


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## Bert H

Steve, this is a really stupid question, but when do you add the micros? I am just wondering if it would make a difference if you added it during 'darkness' or during lights on? I vaguely remembering reading somewhere sometime, that someone had different results with growth and algae issues depending when they added their ferts.


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## scolley

I don't think that's a stupid question at all Bert. Though my answer may not be a good one...

I added the micros last night, after lights-out, so they would be available today. The obvious problem with that is that if I were really trying to do every thing I could, I would not add it until mid-day - major pearling/photosynthesis time. But I wasn't sure I would have the time then, so I got them in early.

The problem with that action is that I KNOW that I can get major algae growth prior to the mid-day lights. So I accept that I fed the algae. But is sure seemed to help the Ludwidia eventually too.


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## Phil Edwards

scolley said:


> With the extra CO2, now this apparently could really be used. But WHAT A TWO EDGED SWORD!
> 
> So now I'm in a quandry... more micros? No more micros because of the algae? Or sit back and observe a bit more?
> 
> One thing is for certain... this is a learning experience, and it for darn sure is not boring!



Two edged sword...no doubt! As long as you're not winning a Phyrric victory.  I'm sure you're not, Steve.

I would dose less volume more frequently. Try 1/2mL every day and see what happens. I'm going to guess that your plants are going to suck the stuff up as quickly as they possibly can. My reasoning for smaller doses is to give it a quicker up-take time. Once it appears that the plants have refilled their micro reserves it's up to your discretion to change your dosing. 

It's certainly not boring, is it? I just jammed my tank full of stems, switched out to new bulbs (4x65w 50/50 6700K/Colormax), and upped the CO2 and WHAM! I thought the pearling was due to the recent water change....two days later I was proven [pleasantly] wrong. It sounds like you and I were in similar shoes. I'm very happy to hear that you've made some progress with your tank. It's too bad H. polysperma's not ecologically correct, it looks great in your tank!


Regards,
Phil


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## scolley

Phil Edwards said:


> Try 1/2mL every day and see what happens. I'm going to guess that your plants are going to suck the stuff up as quickly as they possibly can. My reasoning for smaller doses is to give it a quicker up-take time. Once it appears that the plants have refilled their micro reserves it's up to your discretion to change your dosing.


Thanks Phil, that's good advice that I'm gonna give a run for a few days, see how it works out.

And I like the hyrgro too!:thumbsup: Too bad it's gotta go.


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## scolley

*Update for the week... nothing good.*

I've decided a few things this week as a test.

1) Sitck with the micros, 1/2 ml a day
2) Stop manually removing algae off the leaves daily, and just keep my hands out of the tank.​
Well, straightening out the CO2 has helped (thanks!) as evidenced by the underside of everything in the tank being covered by bubbles for the latter part of the day. And the color has improved on many of the new leaves a little bit. And I'm getting nice lateral growth on most plants.

But on some plants the new growth is still rather pale, particularly the hygro. And on some of the ludwidigia the new growth actually stalled and became mushy. What's that all about?

And the algae is going bonkers!

So I'm kinda scratching my head. The tank is getting denser with plant life, but not as fast as it should. And the algae is slowly winning the war. I think stopping the manual elimination was a mistake.

And I'm going to stop the Excel treatment. It's is clearly a waste of time on this algae, at least at my 15-20ml/day dosing levels.

I'm actually thinking about ditching the sunfish. Anybody want some nice sunfish? If I can get them out, and their drag on the bio-load, I could replace them with some nice ghost shrimp (native BTW!) that could just eat all this stuff away. Right now ghost shrimp in my tank are just lunch. Without the sunfish that opens up another avenue to getting ahead of this scourge.


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## bastalker

Ya think it is time to cut off the co2 and cover it up for a few days?


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## Betowess

scolley said:


> And I'm going to stop the Excel treatment. It's is clearly a waste of time on this algae, at least at my 15-20ml/day dosing levels.
> 
> I'm actually thinking about ditching the sunfish. Anybody want some nice sunfish? If I can get them out, and their drag on the bio-load, I could replace them with some nice ghost shrimp (native BTW!) that could just eat all this stuff away. Right now ghost shrimp in my tank are just lunch. Without the sunfish that opens up another avenue to getting ahead of this scourge.


Sounds like a drag. I was dosing over 50mls Excell in my 90 for BBA at one point, but knocked if off to 30 to 40 every once in a while with the spot treatment... I'm at a loss except cut most all the macros out for awhile, but keep the CO2 going and micros too. You got nothing to loose if its that bad. But the minimal micros you are dosing seems way low to me. I wonder about the substrate. There has to be a cause here, somewhere.


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## scolley

It's a tough call. I'm tempted with Mark's suggestion. Not that invasive, just black things out for a while and knock out the algae. It still won't be addressing root cause though, just letting the "good" plants get a leg up on the "bad" plants...

I'm holding the course for this coming week. In fact, I'm accelerating. So I'll keep the micro's on 1/2ml / day, and I'm bumping the light from 9.5 to 10 hours.

It's about time this tank got some legs! So I'm giving it every chance before I resort to blackout, or even tear down.

*Root Cause*
Still don't know what that is... under dosing CO2, insufficient light, insufficient micros have all attributed to lackluster plant growth IMO, but what is stimulating this algae is another question.

This type of algae has been associated with excess silicate (and insufficient light), so it's possible that the pool sand that I put in the tank initially is at the heart of this. It's still in there, nicely mixed with the Eco-complete. But my EC is one of those "replacement" batches. Who knows what kind of quality assurance went into cranking those out... could be some kind of nasty in there that I wouldn't know to test for.

But this is just grasping at straws. We'll see how the resumed daily physical removal, daily small micro doses, and a bit more light does.


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## bastalker

Hey Steve!! Throw some trash bags over the tank an relax for a few days!! Be a nice lil break for ya!:wink:


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## scolley

*Close-ups tell the tale...*

You know, I could probably take a tank, in the same condition mine is in now, and enter pics of it into a contest. But that only works because the resolution on contest entry photo's are often not very revealing. A close-up or two could make the difference between what the viewer thought was a reasonable entry, and what was clearly a problem tank. Pics at a distance just don't tell the tale.

So with that in mind, here's a few pics of the tank at the moment. From a distance, it doesn't look so bad IMO. (BTW - as opposed to my normal convention, these are all clickable to higher resolution shots. You will want to click to the bigger pic to see some of the ugly stuff. :icon_sad: )

So here's the tank at a distance. Doesn't look too bad to people walking in the room...


So let's drill into a little more detail on the plants to the left and middle of the tank...



Did you click on that larger pic? If so, still doesn't look too bad right? Nice looking plants!roud: Right?

Sorry.

Please look closer in the lower left corner. Here we see some of the Hygo. Eaten up with algae really, and pale yellow to boot! And the L. glandulosa (reddish maroon colored) is pretty much chewed up with it as well. And everything else is at least dotted with it. 



So skip back two shots ago, and let's take a look at the Ludwigia in the high middle. Here we have some garden variety L. repens. Pretty nice. Right? Please click for a close-up and you can see algae all over it.

Those white vertical streaks are obviously bubbles racing to the surface. This stuff is prearling like mad. So is the algae unfortunately.


Or _even worse_, lets look at to some of the other Ludwigia. This is a an erstwhile lovely broad-leaf variety that can be seen to the right of the L. repens a couple of pics ago. Magnificent color IMO, but the algae! Gimme a break!



So maybe you can sense my frustration. At a distance this stuff looks great. But once you start to look close, it still has a real algae problem. And something else too, if we are going to ponder the pale yellow coloration on some of the hygro.

Now before you jump to too many conclusions, please bear in mind that I have photographed _the worst_ problems. Some of the tank looks fine. But most of it looks similar to this.

It seems to be improving. But _Gosh All Mighty_, it does seem to be taking its time!


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## bastalker

Rome wasn't built in a day!:wink: :icon_mrgr

Man those plants have takin right off!! Lookin better Steve. Looks like yer closin the algae door!


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## scolley

bastalker said:


> Rome wasn't built in a day!:wink: :icon_mrgr
> 
> Man those plants have takin right off!! Lookin better Steve. Looks like yer closin the algae door!


Ya know Mark, I appreciate the encouraging words. But all they do is prove to me that I need a better camera.

I'm telling you... every leaf in my tank has algae. Every one!

Old ones, new ones, red ones, blue ones! All of them.

So if you look at my pics (even the big ones) and think it looks good, then it just tells me that I need a camera that can reveal the appropriate detail. Because I've still got a massive, pervasive, thread algae problem that just is not showing up in these photos.

But thanks for the encouragement.


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## Lorenceo

Despite the algea, it does look good.
You need to stop beating yourself up man, My tank is infested with algea, But I still enjoy looking at it. (although posting pictures is a different matter I suppose)
Perhaps this will show you I'm not just blowing smoke:

Take some time to just sit back and enjoy it, If I had a tank like yours I'd find it hard to ever leave the house!


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## Betowess

You da man Lorenceo! I like your desktop! 
Steve, you still haven't tried lowering the macros yet? The fish food and expletive might be providing enough. I keep suggesting this. I'm prolly wrong, but you'll never know till you try it. I think you might be close to the win here too, BTW. Beautiful color in that tank. I'm doing something wrong on mine.
regards, bob


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## briandmiles

Well Steve, if it makes you feel better I can see the algae even on the small pics. The upside to this is that you don't need to invest in a better camera in order convince me that you have a problem. 

In all seriousness though the tank is clearly progressing in the right direction and will most likely continue to do so now that you are dosing at least _some_ micros and an appropriate level of CO2. My tank went through a seriously crappy stage but I just kept doing what I knew would work and It recovered on it's own without having to remove any algae except when I was trimming because of growth. Now I don't have any visible algae anywhere. If I get new plants with algae on them I just toss them in and they are clean within an hour (thank you Red Cherry Shrimp). All of this happened over about an 8 *week* period. You've only had your CO2 fixed for what? 10 days? Give it time and be patient. I would dose the micros at the level they were meant to be dosed and get ready for a ride.

Brian


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## Bert H

Steve, I feel your frustrations man! A few threads ago someone (may have been Phil) said to realize that algae is just part of planted tanks, to one level or another, and to put in more herbivores. That rings so true to me. Unless I am mistaken, the only fish fitting that bill in the tank are the flag fish. What about grabbing a bunch of sailfin mollies - you'd want tank bred, I tried wild caught once and they thought that the tank was their own personal salad bar - and throwing them in there. It would still be a part of your biotope. If they were adults, the sunfish might leave them be. 

In my tanks, I have a love/hate relationship with sae's. I have had some which ate Blyxa japonica and Bacopa australis which I had to find new homes for in the lfs. So I tried the tank without them for 2-3 weeks. Then while doing a water change I noticed I was having a bunch of little tufts of bba cropping up (Iknow it wasn't low CO2). So I went into one of the other tanks and transferred one of the sae's to that tank. Within 48hrs, I couldn't find any more traces of the stuff. I figured the moral of the story for me was as the Stones said: 'you can't always get what you want, but if you try, sometimes, you get what you need.' There are times that we just can't control it all, no matter how hard we try. I don't know of anyone who has tried harder than you. :thumbsup: 

A hell of a journey, keep riding!


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## awrieger

Your hairgrass is as badly infested as mine was. I suspect through all your trials and tribulations of trying to work out where it came from and what was causing it (ie the wood stump), the simple answer is probably - the hairgrass.

Introduced via the hairgrass, protected by the hairgrass, thrives in the hairgrass. I'm willing to bet that if you never added that grass at all right at the beginning, you would never have had this problem.

You know I've totally removed all my grass? And lo and behold, I no longer have a thread algae problem in that tank (just chronic green water now, lol!)

But guess what again, it's now appearing in my other two tanks with new hairgrass plantings. Carried in on the new hairgrass. I found microfilaments of it on the new grass from the lfs. So I'll likely have to do the same there too. Once it's taken a foorhold, there really is no other way to remove it other than removing the grass itself I believe.

So I guess you know what I'm leading to regarding suggesting a solution for your own problem! 

I read an old (1998) mailing list thingie on thekrib (Tom Barr was active even back then!) about this and the only solution from all these experts for this particular algae is to a) remove all the grass and small leaved plants where it makes it's home and then b) either soak those plants in 5% bleach solution for 3-5 minutes to kill it, or do the same with new plants to stop it's re-introduction. Unfortunately most of your plants are small-leaved ones, so it would be a seriously major undertaking in your case!


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## unirdna

Nice photo analysis, Steve. The tank looks presentable and certainly beautiful, but I'm with you 100% - a long way from perfect. I know that algae is a natural part of any tank, but as awrieger points out, some plants are more prone to coverage than others. Having had a tank with "acceptable" amounts of algae, and then recently struck gold, I can tell you that there is something special and surreal about a tank with virtually none of the stuff. So, I won't blow sunshine up your @$$ () because I know you're at least as much as of perfectionist as I am. Keep banging. It _is_ improving.


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## scolley

OK, *Lorenco's *singin' "Love the one you're with"... just kidding pal. I'm _really _flattered by your background! But it also tells everyone that you definately don't have a high resolution monitor!Or maybe I can send you a higher res pic, and you'll decide it's new background time. :hihi:

*Bob *says reduce those nutrients. Good advice, but I'm not sure it's a good idea with this particaular algae. I've already seen that this thread algae can thrive with the smallest of nutrients. I'm afraid that course will starve the plants and let the algae win the battle. I'd rather do a blackout, knowing the higher order plants can last a few days without light.

*Brian *touches on a great point that really does bother me... the almost total lack of a cleaning crew. When I started this venture I worried about not having a cleaning crew, knowing sunfish would eat them. But I hoped it would be possible to have a nice planted tank without a robust cleaning crew, just a bit harder. Well, I suppose it _has certainly _been a bit harder!

So I'm gonna get some! All within the biotope - a whole passel of ghost shrimp! The shrimp would normally be lunch very quickly, so I'm gonna construct a partition in the tank, setting 1/3 apart for the shrimp with no sunfish. The other two thirds will have the normal inhabitants. I'll observe the results and see how it goes. It could be that getting ahead of this stuff means clearing the tank in 3rds or something. I figure it's worth a shot!

*Bert *I owe a debt to, because I've been thinking about Sailfin Mollies for a while. They are true to the biotope, but I don't want anything else munching on the plants. Those flagfish are bad enough! And he also reinforces the fact that I'm trying to accomplish an algae free tank with practically no cleaners. Does anyone do that here? Or am I the one person beating their head against a wall, trying to have an algae free tank with no cleaning crew? Really.

*awrieger *has, of course, hit the nail right on the head. My hairgrass is infested with this junk. Is, was, and always will be. It's where the poop goes. So maybe I've got a new option to consider... rip up the hairgrass. Bummer. That takes me into places I never, never thought about. No hairgrass, no sand. I dunno. It makes sense from an algae eradication perspective. But I'm not sure I'm ready to got there. I've got a bit of fight left in me yet.

*Ted *knows that I'm stubborn.Thanks Ted, what's life if not a struggle?


Thanks for the help folks. As Ted pointed out a few posts ago, this is indeed _our tank_, and your guidance is pulling me through. Thanks.:icon_wink


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## uncskainch

Subdividing the tank and using the ghost shrimp as 1/3-tank cleaners is an interesting idea. When I got yeast mix in my tank and wound up with gunk everywhere, I put about 30 ghost shrimp in the tank and they cleaned it up almost immediately. I don't know how they do on algae, but I can attest to their general clean-up skills, so if you don't have a lot of leftover food laying around, I'll bet they'll make a dent. They're busy little guys!

I'm sure with your problem solving skills and good instincts, you'll have the algae beaten back before too long, but I know this is a frustrating process for you. Hang in there.


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## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> ". . . so I'm gonna construct a partition in the tank, setting 1/3 apart for the shrimp with no sunfish. The other two thirds will have the normal inhabitants. . . "


Rotational grazing , sounds like a plan roud:.


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## Curare

Scolley that repens is looking fantastic! I always wanted mine to go THAT red, what's the secret?

hehehe


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## scolley

Curare said:


> Scolley that repens is looking fantastic! I always wanted mine to go THAT red, what's the secret?
> 
> hehehe


Damned if I know! But I do suspect all of the following are factors...

1) I don't let KNO3 go over 14 ppm.
2) Lots of light (that's a precise scientific measure BTW. _Lots_ is more than a _bunch_ and less than _tonnes_.)
3) Using Microsoft Picture Manager as your photo editor. It pushes the reds IMO.​
Problem is I have poor color vision, so this could be WAY off. But I really don't think so. To my eyes what I see in these pics is a shade redder than is really in the tank. But not much. That Ludwigia is _pretty red_.

uncskainch - I wish I had the faith in the ghost shrimp that you seem to. But I'm buying 60. They darn well better eat _something_!

Now if you don't mind, I've got to go back to figuring out a way to construct a fence to support, as Cindy so aptly put it, my "rotational grazing".:hihi:


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## bigstick120

Scolley, if you put a divider up be sure that you still have some water movement on that side of the tank or else you are going to have problems. You need to figure out a way that the water can flow through it and the sunfish cant get the shrimp. Maybe a piece of acrylic with lots of small holes in it will work


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## scolley

bigstick120 said:


> Scolley, if you put a divider up be sure that you still have some water movement on that side of the tank or else you are going to have problems.


You are right on the money pal. Water movement is going to be THE issue. And there are a number of options that will allow good movement, but they will also let the shrimp out. 

So I'm not sure what to do...

1) Something with big holes - keeping good flow but sacrificing an unknown quantity of shrimp. Maybe the "smart" ones will stay where it is safe?

2) Something with small holes - restricted flow, but maximizing my algae eating possibilities.

3) Blended solution - Major flow is in the top few inches of water where the lilies blow out. The outflows are in each of the two bottom rear corners. So I could use something with small holes 3/4 up the tank to minimize "lunch" migration, and something with larger holes the top 1/4 to reduce impact on the flow, with an understood downside of losing some shrimp - but not as many as a full "big holes" solution.​I'm figuring this out as I go folks, so your thoughts are most appreciated. Thanks.


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## Oqsy

is this divider going to be temporary until your algae subsides? if so, how important are aesthetics? you could grab some acrylic, drill lots of 1" holes (or larger) and glue some plastic mesh (craft store stuff used commonly here for moss walls) over the big holes. with enough of the big holes you should get decent circulation, and the mesh should keep any adult sized shrimp from crossing to the sunfish side of the tank. Or even simpler than that in my opinion, you could just get enough mesh to make the divider from, and frame it with plastic to keep it rigid enough to keep from blowing over or bending at the edges and letting the shrimp / fish switch sides. This is the technique I used to make a betta divider in a 5 gallon tank. As for the flow, it won't be totally unimpeded, but it will be better than with those commercial acrylic dividers with the little slits. You could always temporarily reroute your filtration (i'm thinking you have 2 canisters, right?) where the intake and output for each canister are on opposite sides (filter 1 output and filter 2 input on the left of the tank, and filter 2 output and filter 1 input on the right side) It could be unsightly, but as a temporary fix along with the tank divider, it might be the most practical way to keep the water flowing from one side to the other, and it would prevent the mesh from acting as a mattenfilter of sorts... both inputs on one side and both outputs on the other would result in leaves, debris, etc getting stuck in the mesh and impeding flow (how much depends on how much time you spend pulling loose leaves from the tank). In any case, I think you're on the right track with a herd of goat shrimp... i mean ghost shrimp. 

I agree on the hair issue being a source and breeding ground for algae, particularly thread algae. I've had several encounters with hair grass, and it's always reared it's head when hairgrass is around. I've severely cut back my hairgrass and now use blyxa for my "grass" needs. In fact, the hairgrass is pratically imperceptible in my new tank photo. Hairgrass looks great when clean and healthy, but keeping it that way is VERY hard work. You almost have to get a comb and go at it like an algae infested afro to keep it free of debris. even then it's still prone to algaes other than thread (green spot and green fuzz in my case) that are more persistent even when it's kept free of "junk". Good luck finding a solution there. 

In any case your tank is still looking great!

Chris


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## RoseHawke

I wonder how much just plain nylon window screening would cut the flow? Or there's always needlepoint canvas although I'm not sure how big the biggest piece you could get would be. I don't think an adult shrimp could get through that, although of course the babies are going anywhere they want!

Ah, here's some. I'm sure there's more as well. Not quite big enough, although if you couldn't find any larger, you could just sew a few bits together with some fishing line. Make a frame out of some sort of small rigid tubing and sew it to that as well. It wouldn't be perfectly secure unless you siliconed it to the sides as well but that's too much trouble for a nickle. I'd think it'd keep most folks where they're supposed to stay.


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## Betowess

I'll wager the ghost shrimp would stay on the safe side with some kind of rigid big sq. hole plastic mesh. Darwinian natural selection? What about another fish that would work in this biotope in place of the Sunfish?


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## scolley

Betowess said:


> What about another fish that would work in this biotope in place of the Sunfish?


Nothing IMO. Which is the problem...

As for materials, thanks for the suggestions. I got the materials, just gotta rig it up. I bought some plastic eggcrate (or plastic mesh Oqsy!) with big, big holes in it, and some nylon screen door replacement screen (great suggestion Cindy!) with moderate holes. I figure I'll cut the eggcrate to size and wedge it in - assuming hard plastic will not will not scratch glass. But after it's cut I'll silicone the screen onto it. It won't be pretty, but is should do the job.

And I hadn't thought about it, but Oqsy is right... if this impedes water flow too much I can just move one of the two inflows so there is one on each side of the screen. But all my non-filtration in-line water treatment (heat, CO2, UV, fert injection) is all done on one of the two lines, so some reasonable amount of flow across the barrier is still important. 

As for Darwinian natural selection Bob, I'm happy to give that a shot! Do you want to paypal me the money for the shrimp to try that on?


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## RoseHawke

I don't know about Darwinian natural selection . . . I'm still trying to figure out why we have yet to breed a 'possum that *stays* on one side of the road!


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## Oqsy

there are plenty of those, rose... they're the ones that breed to produce the stupid ones that we run over... if there weren't any that stayed clear of the road, they'd have been extinct in the 20's 

scolley: post a pic if you get a chance... I'd like to see this contraption you're building.

Oqsy


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## Naja002

> Root Cause
> Still don't know what that is... under dosing CO2, insufficient light, insufficient micros have all attributed to lackluster plant growth IMO, but what is stimulating this algae is another question.





> 90-95% of all algae problems are CO2 related.
> Remember that.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Thread

Maybe a C02 manifold, needle valve and check valve running to a 2nd C02 Reactor on Your other Canister....

Its an Open-Top tank. Have You ever turned Your C02 up high enough to have to turn it back down (Fish reaction)...? If not, it would be worth a try--and You may need a 2nd reactor to get enough C02 dissolved....

Just some Thoughts.....

From my chair--Your tank looks Fantastic! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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## scolley

*It's a PLANTED tank after all...*

OK, I wound up getting really busy. Too busy to worry about the tank. And within two days I had a massive algae outbreak. Maybe CO2, sure. Maybe the micros I've been dosing. Maybe both, or more, or neither.

So I've shut down the micro auto doser, and tried to confirm that the CO2 is OK, and then had absolutely no more time to deal with it further. Which meant I have no time to construct the tank divider for the shrimp. And they are arriving in a day. What to do?


Quick decision time...​

Now after an hour of plant ripping, leaf tearing, root pulling chasing of fish with two nets, I've got all the sunfish in a bucket. I'm gonna take them to the same friends house with the private pond... they can get reacquainted with Mr. Bass.

At the end of the day this is a planted tank. I made the mistake of buying the sunfish when the kind I wanted came on the market, wanting to make sure they had time to grow out by AGA 2006. Well, all that won't make a bit of difference if the tank is full of algae. So...

1) I'm ditching the sunfish, and their poop, and their desire to eat beneficial tank cleaners.
2) I'm putting 60 shrimp it to see if that help clean up the tank, and will augment with something else if needed.
3) Keeping this low bioload, I'm gonna get the aquascape in ship shape and THEN I'll add larger fish back slowly.
4) And if I miss AGA 2006, and have to wait for 2007, so be it. I'm not gonna enter a tank if I don't think it's special.​That's the plan anyway. I'll keep you posted.


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## bpm2000

man itll be sad to see those sunfish go. hopefully the shrimp help out a lot!


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## Bert H

Steve, what kind of shrimp are you getting? I remember reading you had said ghost shrimp. If you're going all out to eradicate this stuff, wouldn't it be better to get the amanos or cherries, as they're the ones who will eat more algae than ghost?


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## lumpyfunk

If you get a chance, snap a pic of Mr. Piggy for us!

And you can always put the fish back in to get your pics for AGA, I realize that this would probably be a hollow victory for you though.


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## scolley

I'm gonna miss the sunfish too.:icon_sad: The one with the red has really taken on some quite beautiful color too. All red on the side of his face with red streaks in it's fins. Really beautiful! Bummer.

Like lump said, I can get more fish. And I assume I will once the plants are in order. But I'm not going to beat myself up over this step backward. If I get there in the end I'll be happy enough... kinda like the tank itself.

As for the shrimp, these ghost are a native US (Florida) variety. And they are supposed to eat thread algae. So I'll give them a whirl. Amanos would be better, but I can get more than 50 of these guys for what I could buy 10 or 15 Amanos for, so that's a factor too. But the bottom line is they are native, so I don't have to worry about getting them out some day.

It was wicked hard getting those sunfish out.:icon_eek: I'm just glad this wasn't an aquascape that I was really, really attached to. Because it kinda took a pounding!


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## Betowess

If you ever do get Amanos they live alot lot longer than the Ghosts, so in that way the cost might even out. Don't ghost only live like 6 months or something? And you could photshop the Amanos out for a picture, if you couldn't catch them all, which no one ever could without tearing the tank apart.

Speaking of catching fish, I remember trying to catch three large SAEs. The last big one took me the better part of an hour, and the tank looked thrashed afterwards. Regards the Sunfish, I think you are making the right call. Good luck with the thread algae!


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## shuks

Ya, I think giving up the sunfish was the best plan. I had to go threw the same thing with my arowana. He was perfict in a planted tank, but he made to much mess for my little 75 gallon tank, and he got to big. The algea got so bad that I eventualy had to make a choice betweyne my arowana and my plants, so that was that...


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## scolley

*Dwarf Hairgrass and fish poop*

While I still have a major algae problem, my hairgrass is looking great. Never better IMO. The algae in it has visibly diminished, and there is lots of new growth. I've not changed a thing beyond dumping 60 ghost shrimp in the tank a few days ago.

The ghost shrimp are eating the hair algae. But there is a WHOLE LOT of food for them right now, so it's gonna take a while for them to get in front of that growth curve and make a dent in it. So I really don't think their presence for 3 days has anything to do with the hairgrass. Especially since absolutely nothing else looks a bit better.

No, IMO the hairgrass looks better because of the lack of sunfish poop, since I removed them last week. The die back of the algae in the hairgrass, and the new vigor of the new growth, both appear to be directly related to the massive reduction of fish poop hitting it.

Another lesson learned.


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## Phil Edwards

mmmmmmm Ammonia. :help: :icon_excl :icon_excl


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## awrieger

Ohhh, I want some ghost shrimp now. Why can't I have some ghost shrimp? I want some! 

Looking forward to seeing how much difference they make to your tank now, Steve!


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## scolley

Phil Edwards said:


> mmmmmmm Ammonia. :help: :icon_excl :icon_excl


NOT. I've been measuring ammonia since my first suspicions over my fish load. It always measures zero.

(And yes, test kits can be bad. And I can't tell you if this kit is accurate, but I can tell you it does detect ammonia. I tested it. But I'm not gonna tell you how!)

And awrieger - ghost shrimp are dirt cheap. If it weren't for shipping they'd be one of the cheapest aquatic animals available to us. I've got another 150 to 200 on the way. I've already witnessed the current ones eating the thread algae. But they'll never make a dent in it. Too much algae. So maybe this will help.


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## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> NOT. I've been measuring ammonia since my first suspicions over my fish load. It always measures zero.
> 
> (And yes, test kits can be bad. And I can't tell you if this kit is accurate, but I can tell you it does detect ammonia. I tested it. But I'm not gonna tell you how!)


The mind boggles :icon_eek: . . .


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## bharada

scolley said:


> ...I tested it. But I'm not gonna tell you how!)


Ewwwww!

:icon_lol:


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## awrieger

scolley said:


> And awrieger - ghost shrimp are dirt cheap. If it weren't for shipping they'd be one of the cheapest aquatic animals available to us.


Curse these Australian quarantine laws! Well maybe not. At least they keep rabies and suchlike out. But at a hefty cost to my aquatic wish-list!

If they really do eat this hair algae, they'd be the answer to all my prayers. Which it sounds like they'll be to you. 250+ of the little critters sure sounds like more than enough to tackle the job! Good luck with them!


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## Steven_Chong

If it makes you feel better awrieger, I'd love to try some of those australian caridina shrimp (though I understand they're hard for australian hobbyists to get too). :icon_lol: 

BTW-- do ghosts really eat algae scolley? I've always thought of them as just scavenger types. I have actually never raised any myself, we can't bring them in to hawai'i either.


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## Bert H

> I tested it. But I'm not gonna tell you how


 Too much imagination can be a bad thing at times like this... Let's just assume you have cats and dogs!


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## scolley

*Running out of options*

Well the shrimp have been in for quite a few days... over 200 of them, maybe 250. A lotta shrimp. Not making a dang dent in the algae either.:icon_cry: 

I had to stop my daily algae removal, been too busy. So it was a good test to see what the shrimp would do. One thing is for sure... what ever they do to control thread algae, it is NOTHING next to the rate this stuff grows. After 4 or 5 days of keeping my hands out of the tank, I had thread algae heaven growing in there.

My pH test kit is reading about 0.4 higher than my probe. So while I may have a flaky probe, I don't see it as mattering much. That's because my dKH is 5, and my pH kit says 6.5, while my probe says 6.1. So either the test kit is right and my CO2 is plenty high, or the probe is right and it is through the roof. Either one is enough to assume this is not a CO2 deficiency. But I've got a new probe on order, along with a hand held meter, just to provide a double check.

I trimmed the Ludwigia today because several bunches are finally at the surface with stems floating across the surface. So stuff IS growing, but this algae is clearly giving everything a hard time.

*My options seem to be running out*

I've tried higher light.
I've tried less light.
I've removed the wood.
I've removed most of the fish.
I've blasted the tank with Excel.
I've ruled out ferts.
I've just about ruled out CO2.
I've filled the tank with healthy plants.
I've filled the tank with native algae eaters.


*The only options I see left are:*

Wait for the new probe to completely rule out CO2.
Blackout.
Lots and lots of Amanos ($$$) or SAEs($$$), which are none native.
Rip it all out and start over.

I'm inclined to think option number four is the only one that is going to work. Since I think I've ruled out almost every possible root cause, the one really troubling one left is excess silicates. For those of you that have been following from the beginning, you will recall that I started this tank with quartz pool sand in the front of the tank. It got all mixed up with the Eco-complete, and may possibly be at the root of this problem. 

But I think I still have options 1, 2 and 3 left, before I go to option 4, if this does not abate soon.


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## unirdna

Option 10?

Here's a "trick" I use all the time... When you do water changes from your 20g, add that water to your 90g (if your 20g is algae free). I can't explain why this works, but it always does for my tanks. When I add water from my 46g to my 30g, it "kills" algae.

It would be better if the 20g had algae and the 90g was clear , as you could do a complete water change.

BTW, no shrimp can ever keep up with thread algae. And I doubt any fish could either. IMO, their purpose is one of manicuring the tank, not cleaning it.


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## scolley

Thanks Ted! That's an interesting tip. I'll try that!

I haven't been mentioning it here, but my 20g is amazingly algae free. And just as a bit of a twisted test, I've been moving limited portions of plant from my 75g to my 20g. And guess what happens?

As you would expect, the algae on the transferred plants disappear! So there may be something to your suggestion. I'll give it a whirl! Thanks.


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## jrmt07

Damn... 57 pages in one thread. Is that a record? lol


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## fredyk

If I followed the recommended dose of PMDD for my 30, I'd get an algae overdose. The two 30 gal tanks, listed in my signature, have no problem with hair algae. They have a good balance of light, CO2, ferts. But, What happens when I give the water a boost and increase the ferts? HAIR ALGAE. 

I have another 30 gal with hair algae. something is awry with this tank, but I don't have the fortitude to tackle and eliminate it. Hopefully it will balance itself. but who knows?

I'm the wrong person to suggest a fix, but I am just compelled to jump in here.

Why do we suggest lots of stem plants in new tanks? Start with a safe zone, then get more complicated.

I surmise that aquarium of yours is growing algae and not plant, so I think you can eradicate it. SOMEHOW like filled to capacity with stem plants. that would choke off algae, but be unsightly.
: ))))))

Mark


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## scolley

fredyk said:


> Why do we suggest lots of stem plants in new tanks? Start with a safe zone, then get more complicated.
> 
> I surmise that aquarium of yours is growing algae and not plant, so I think you can eradicate it. SOMEHOW like filled to capacity with stem plants. that would choke off algae, but be unsightly.
> : ))))))
> 
> Mark


Mark, I started off complicated to make the AGA Contest photo shoot in time. In hindsight a real mistake. But that's water under the bridge now.

I've BEEN THROUGH multiple attempts to fill this tank with plants. They all die back from being consumed by thread algae.

Now in fairness to the concept, it has never been FILLED. I don't think anyone FILLS a 75g with stem plants to start. That would take pounds and pounds of plants. You could buy all the stem you want, but with the little 8-12 inch stems the vendors sell (I'm not slighting the vendors here) you are not going to FILL a 75g. After giving a fresh trim to the bottom of the stems, you still are only going to have the bottom 1/3 of the tank filled. And I shudder to think how much it would cost to completely cover the bottom 1/3 of a 75g. A lot to be sure.

Here's an impromptu shot of the tank.








So it's not FULL. But it has lots of plant life in there now. And in fairness to the tank, most people don't even see the top 2-3 inches of their tank (when viewed straight on) due to the rims and/or hoods. So take a few inches off the top of what you are looking at for a fair comparison.

Also keep in mind that I just trimmed everything that was floating on the top, so it's looking a bit shorter today than it did yesterday.

Besides, I'm not sure how you "fill" a 75 beyond the plant volume in there now. You can cram plants in about to the point you see plants in the tank now. But after that any additional "filling" should require a bit on grow in I suspect.

So short of ripping everything out and starting all over, I think I HAVE been through the "fill the tank up" option a time or two now. Before the plants can get a really strong foothold, the algae chokes it off.

*Moving forward*
I'm gonna give Ted's suggestion (water from a healthy tank) a shot. And I'm gonna wait for the new pH probe to come in to absolutely confirm this is not a CO2 issue. If needed the black out comes after that.

But I'm not gonna waste time on Amanos or SAE's because I still haven't found root cause.

So if the blackout doesn't work, everything in the tank is being replaced - a start from scratch.


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## fredyk

Well you get an A for effort! you eventually have to ignore conflicting ideas (including mines) and implement your own solution.
Mark


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## timr

Hi Steve!

I don't really have the time to follow this thread and i don't have the algae experience to make suggestions. I'm dealing with my own algae war right now, hair and BBA. However, I STRONGLY urge you to avoid what you consider option #3. Also i tried a blackout but i guess i did it wrong because all it did was kill a lot of my plants.


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## briandmiles

If you do a standard 3 day blackout and it killed your plants then they must have been nearly dead already. 

Brian


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## scolley

timr said:


> Hi Steve!
> 
> I don't really have the time to follow this thread and i don't have the algae experience to make suggestions. I'm dealing with my own algae war right now, hair and BBA. However, I STRONGLY urge you to avoid what you consider option #3. Also i tried a blackout but i guess i did it wrong because all it did was kill a lot of my plants.


On top of Brian's feedback, you have to consider that when option 4 (rip out and start over) is what happens after option 2 (black out), it's not such a big deal. If I get to option 2 it's because there are no reasonable alternatives left.

So thanks for the word of caution. But I'm nearing the bottom of the barrel. Plus my well documented patience and stubborn persistence is just about at it's end.


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## Curare

I'm starting to shy away from blackouts at all costs.

they may be effective, to some people but they end up doing more harm than good, ie stressed fishies etc

and often don't erradicate the problem.


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## briandmiles

I'm not sure how a blackout would stress the fish. Granted I've never done a blackout since I added German Blue Rams to my aquarium, but I don't think the fish are in there thinking "the light was supposed to come on three hours ago, the day of armageddon has arrived, arghhhhh". But I tend to not treat animals like people. I treat them well, but I don't humanize them.

Brian


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## Hop

Well scolley I certainly cannot comment or help with your thread algae issue. Thread algae is what ultimately broke my interest in the 125. I tried everything from blackouts to dosing to RO water etc. Although the tank still looked all right, I became frustrated that I could not grow hair grass or glosso. It would be taken over and strangled within days. Attempting to rid the carpet of HA just uprooted the plants and I killed every show piece plant I bought. So ultimately I took a break and my personal focus shifted to reef tanks.

I still love planted tanks and the 125 is still a low-light planted. I hope you can pull through this and get it dialed in. I'm sure if you are patient, it will come to pass But your tank really looks great in the pics!


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## Betowess

What kind of substrate are you thinking of Steve?


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## rbittman

Forgive me if this has been suggested already as a "cure" for hair algae and possibly BBA. I fought the war against green hair algae for a few years in a 40g high light tank with EI fertilization plus Tropica Master Grow; I also inject pressurized CO2.
Nothing worked and I tried it all, multiple times. Just as I was about to throw in the proverbial towel, I saw on the web someone stated overdosing Excel eliminated this alga. I tried it (3-4x normal dose for a week) and it worked and never returned. I resumed normal Excel or no Excel input afterwards and it still didn't return. I can't speak for BBA, though SAEs and higher CO2 are supposed to help that.
Definitely before dismantling the tank, try this.
Best of luck, I know how you feel.
Roxanne


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## scolley

*It's gonna get ugly*

Roxanne, I've done the excel - thanks. Even the direct syringe method has no impact.

I'm away on a short 5 day holiday, so there will be no manual removal for a while. I assume the tank will be really nasty when I get back. Problem is, I just found out I've got to go on a business trip (est. 10 days) as soon as I return.

So I assume I'll come back from vacation in a few days, find a lot of algae and find my new CO2 probe and pocket tester have arrived in the mail. So I'll confirm my CO2 was (and will remain) OK. Then two weeks of additional neglect as I leave again, and will return to an algae horror show. After that will be the blackout.

The result of that exercises will determine if it is tear down time.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> The result of that exercises will determine if it is tear down time.



Ugh! :icon_roll If that happens, send out an APB for plants. I'll send what I can roud:


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## Bert H

Good luck Steve! Same here re-plants, just let me know. And enjoy your vacation!


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## bastalker

Why not do the black out while yer on vacation? Not like yer gonna do anything to it anyways...:wink: I betcha when ya get back, it wont be any worse.


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## briandmiles

I think a five day blackout might be pushing it. After 3 days my stems where a little leggy and most of them were noticeably pale. But they were sure clean.

Brian


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## bastalker

briandmiles said:


> I think a five day blackout might be pushing it. After 3 days my stems where a little leggy and most of them were noticeably pale. But they were sure clean.
> 
> Brian


Yer absolutely right about everything gettin leggy!! 

I just went thru an involuntary blackout for 6 days!! I can tell ya, while everything got leggy, the couple a spots where I always got cyano in the front of the tank stopped. I couldn't find a spot of algae when the lights went on, except for a few spots on the glass.

Granted, I didn't cover the tank in garbage bags, but the lack pf light sure seemed to slow the cyano down.

Now it is just a trim to of all the leggy plants!


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## scolley

Well I got back from vacation and the tank was a wreck. I mean it has never, never, never looked like this. Lot's of nice growth, all covered (and I mean COVERED) with long, long flowing thread algae.

My new CO2 probe, and handheld CO2 probe both came in. After calibration with 7.01 solution, they both confirmed that my old probe was off by 0.3. So that means that when I thought my CO2 was swinging between 96 and 60, it was actually swinging from 48 to 24. Not good, and nice to be corrected. But I would not call this a massive CO2 shortage either. In fact, I suspected the probe was off, which is why I had it set so "high".

Many, many of the ghost shrimp perished. The fish were not fed for the 5 days I was away. I was only worried about the pipefish, and he seems fine, though the darters are hiding (or worse)!

The algae is SO bad that I'm considering doing a water change then going straight to blackout. 

It's real bad. Should I post pics? It's bad.


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## briandmiles

I think you should absolutely post pics. It might help portray just how bad it is in the same way you keep telling us it is. Just a thought, I have only used blackouts with BGA and don't know how effective it will be on thread algae. I assume you've done a search and thread algae was one of the effected algaes? I imagine it can't hurt.

Brian


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## scolley

*Not for the squeamish!*

OK, you asked for it...

I'll not go into a long explanation here. You've been following progress. I've often left my tanks alone for weeks at a time, and have NEVER come home to a major problem. But this happened in just 5 days.
























































Major scum on top and everything! Go figure.


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## yznj99

This makes me think that the whole ammonia triggers algae spore germination is just a theory, there are thousands types of algae out there and are they all blind to nitrate and other nutrients and looking only for ammonia to determine if the propagation condition is favorable? I think by providing optimal conditions for your plants you also provide the alage colonies optimal conditions and they are so numerous that it's hard for your plants to outcompete them even with low ammonia concentrations.


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## shuks

wow, I've never seen algae distroy a tank like that in 5 days before..
Something is deffanitly going wrong. 

did you reduce the lighting while you were gone? 
were the auto dosers working, or were you not dosing ferts for 5 days?

The Oiley protien buildup reduces gas exchange ALOT. When injecting co2, you levels will be much higher, and at night your plants and shrimp are probably suffocating. The number one thing I do to my tank before I go on vacation is position a powerhead angled upward to the surface, and turn down the light. 

I think you should invest in one of thoes protien skimmers that attach to the intake of your canister. Or since you have an open top tank, you could just buy a regular protien skimmer and mount it on the side. I think that would be the best purchase you could make right now.


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## scolley

*Fending off the inevitable questions...*

So what changed to give rise to this?

1) I put 25 gallons (or so) from my healthy 20g into the tank over the course of 3 days before I left.
2) I went away for 5 days and stopped my daily manual algae removal process.
3) No food went in the tank while I was away.
3) I had some shrimp die, maybe a bunch - hard to say (I can see 10 or 15). A bunch are still living.


What were the water conditions that gave rise to this?

Temp - 73 F
GH - 5 (water normally under 3, raised by Epsom Salts - MgSO4)
KH - 5.5 (water normally under 3, raised by Baking Soda - NaHCO3)
NO3 - 11 (was 14 when I last tested 9 days ago, 0.78 ppm added daily with autodoser)
PO4 - 1.5 (was 2.0 when I last tested 9 days ago, 0.1 ppm added daily with autodoser)
K - assumed 15 (targeted 20.0 when I last tested 9 days ago, .65 ppm added daily with autodoser)
Ammonia - 0
pH - 6.5 to 6.8 (SMS 122 holding between readings of 6.2 to 6.5, but probe confirmed to be reading 0.3 too low)
Light - 9.5 hr photoperiod (3.5hrs @ 108w, 3hrs @ 216w, and 3hrs @ 108w using Tek HO T5s)

I unplugged the autordoser in-line tubing today as it was doing its schedule daily dose, and it was working. And yes, there is a definate thick, oily green scum on much of the water surface.


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## shuks

Maybe you not dosing enough.. My 75 gallon tank can runthrough 7 ppm nitrate, and .4 ppm phosphate per day.

Also, did you dose micros while you were gone, or iron? I know if I dont dose my regular 30 ml's of CSM+B three times a week me plants start to suffer and algy starts to thrive.


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## scolley

No micros except what comes in with the water changes. I know that can spark a huge debate, but going back over the history of this tank, micros have caused more trouble than good. And what we are looking at is a recent explosion... the lack of micro dosing is not new to this tank.

I'll do a massive manual algae removal tonight. But I'll wager that under that algae, there are some pretty happy looking plants. Sounds crazy, but I bet that's what I'll find.


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## BlueRam

Bummer. The tank was looking so go just a few days ago. If you are asking for options, I vote "reset" or #4. Assume there is a lot of spare fish poop running around so swap the substrate (if you can find something cheap like sand or soilmaster) or rinse the expensive stuff and put it back together. You may have noticed that many of the beautiful tanks in Amanno's books are still "young." In fact it seems like like most of the tanks were brought together for the shoot and then reset to try a new aquatic style. So take a moment and do something bold for your ADA photo shoot!

Second, now that you are on mostly stems, I am growing most of the same plants with 4X T8 NO in 60 gal (2.1 WPG). It seems like you are using a factor of 2 (or 3!!!) times as much light. It might be time to buy 3 NO T5 and model a shady part of the swamp. You should be able to keep the same plants and trim weekly or bi-weekly.

So keep with it and do something original. Do a "reset" instead of a tear-it-down-because-it-sucks. Your previous attempts are uncommon if only because they are so hard!


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## Urkevitz

I think you might be underdosing KNO3 . 

I was dosing dry KNO3 6 ppm every other day in my 75 gallon while using two t-8 shoplights and DIY Co2. Your T-5s have got to be alot brighter, and you have pressurized Co2, and tons of fast growers.


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## mrbelvedere

Water changes, water changes, water changes. Get rid of the problem. Then figure out the source. I feel so sorry for you. Wow, that is the worst algae problem I have ever seen. :frown:


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## A Hill

lots of algea eaters! snails shrimp otto's... get like 10dozen ghost shrimp... see what happens

good luck! i think you have had more problems than me and thats alot :drool:  :drool: 

good luck

-=- fish newb -=-

also check aquabid. there is this guy that sells stems from like 1-10cents a piece. 500 stems for like $25 shipped. its a really good deal.


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## scolley

Urkevitz said:


> I think you might be underdosing KNO3 .
> 
> I was dosing dry KNO3 6 ppm every other day in my 75 gallon while using two t-8 shoplights and DIY Co2. Your T-5s have got to be a lot brighter, and you have pressurized Co2, and tons of fast growers.


I'll get back with more responses later but...

Yes, based on what I originally posted "targeted 2.0" you would be absolutely correct! But that was a typo. Sorry. My K target is 20.0, what I bring the changed volume of water up to on my weekly water change, then I let don't add any more for a week, letting the auto doses of KNO3 and KH2PO4 boost in an additional 0.65 ppm per day. 

That may still be an underdose, but not a gross one IMO. I'll let my upcoming photo's of the algae removed tank show you pictures of a tank that does not look deficient in anything, K or otherwise.


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## Bert H

Wow Steve, hard to believe that's only 5 days. I'm sure you've looked into this, but have you verified your test kits as to their accuracy? I mean, if you were a newby and I was seeing these pics, I would say that the tank was really out of balance, fert, CO2, lightwise - the whole 9 yards. 

I guess at this point, my response would be to tear down the tank completely and nuke it with peroxide or bleach, and start it over with tons of stem plants and moderate light levels. Then proceed from there. 

I tip my hat to your perseverance! Good luck. If you ever need more plants, just let me know.


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## scolley

Bert H said:


> Wow Steve, hard to believe that's only 5 days. I'm sure you've looked into this, but have you verified your test kits as to their accuracy? I mean, if you were a newby and I was seeing these pics, I would say that the tank was really out of balance, fert, CO2, lightwise - the whole 9 yards.


Well, I'm not far off from a newb. This is just getting into year 3 of this stuff for me. But I HAVE been paying attention. And so I HAVE questioned my test kits.

For that reason I keep a second set that I pull out every month or so, and run duplicate tests on everything. I'm assuming that if both kits are reading the same then they should be close to right - especially since one kit gets used a lot, and the other does not.

Last time I did that, about 4 weeks ago, both sets of kits read identical. The one exception is Ammonia, for which I only have one kit. But as I mentioned in a prior post, I can't say the kit is right, but I can confirm that it does detect Ammonia. I'm just not saying how I know. But it does.

The kits are right IMO. Take a look at the pics. Stuff's pearling like mad. What I don't know is whether the bubbles in the algae are just stuck in it, or FROM it.

I spent some time cleaning the tank tonight. I'll post pics tomorrow after the water has had a chance to clear. And you can compare to prior pics for yourself... the plants are happy and growing. Only problem is the algae is too.


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## Betowess

If this could be used as a control experiment, I would be curious to put the same water and plants in a new tank (20 gallon) with new substrate and dose same proportions and see what happened. I mean the same plants and water taken from the 75G. I suspect the substrate is triggering this persistant thread. Something certainly is.


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## lumpyfunk

Have you considered h2o2 treatment as step 3.5 it is outlined here http://www.gpodio.com/h2o2.asp it is defiantly on the drastic side, but it seems to be where you are getting to.


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## Curare

Jeez Scolley, that's pretty harsh, but I've had similar punch ups with algal blooms over the years, and you're doing the right thing As far as I can see.

Chin up, and hands in!


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## scolley

*One more thing to try before blackout/tear-down*

Here's a couple of impromptu pics of the tank after I "cleaned" it up last night. There's still algae - really, really hard to get it all in one try.



















The point of these pics is to show that the plants aren't suffering. In fact, I should have gotten some close-ups so you can see... they are thriving. No evident deficiencies here IMO. 

And as for biomass... well I suppose you could cram more plants in the tank. But it does have a pretty good bit now. If it can't out compete algae with this level of plants, there is a big problem.

Since I've got the new pH probe and pocket meter, I can check to see that they agree (and they do), and keep a really close watch on CO2. Which I will for a few days. But since I think CO2 was fine before, I'm not going to waste a lot of time on that. If things don't look better by Saturday, I'm gonna try ONE MORE THING before blacking the tank out (followed by tear down).


*STEVE'S (HUMBLE) SOAPBOX*
I personally think the massive overdosing so many people do to their tanks here is a bunch of bunk. Too many examples of planted tanks (including high light) where the plants thrive on moderate doses. But hey, I'm the one with an incredible algae problem. So maybe I'm wrong.

So if the verified CO2 levels don't improve things soon, I'll give what I believe to be ridiculously high doses a shot. How high? How about keeping N at 20, P at 2.9, and K at 29? That's a strict Barr ratio. With auto-dosing I can hold that level - not a target - steady state. And to top it off, I'll add 1.25 ml of TMG every day.

If I'm wrong, and these kind of high levels of ferts really are the bee's knees, then we'll all know soon enough. And if not, it's blackout/tear-down time. Plus I'll know my long suspicions that high dosing as a panacea was just more plantedtank mythology might just be right. 



*RESPONSES*

*curare *- thanks pal.

*lumpyfunk *- I'm really hesitant on the hydrogen peroxide thing. I hate to think about the fish suffering. If I could get them out I would do it. But there are too many plants now. They are in until teardown I'm afraid, and the rules out your suggestion. Thanks though.

*bob *- you want some of this substrate and some of the plants to try your experiment? If you pay shipping on the EC I'm happy to pack it up if I tear down. But I'm not messing with this substrate or these plants anymore if I start over.

*fish newb* - I've got 20 dozen ghost shrimp. Or did before they started their die-off (I assume from excess CO2). Doesn't work.

*mrbelvedere* - what will frequent water changes do when you cannot manually remove all the algae? And I did a water change last night, and by 10AM this morning I had lot's of new algae. I'm not sure water changes make a difference.

*Urkevitz* - there are two issues with dosing IMO, the level you have a nutrient set at, and the rate at which you have to replenish it. So unless the conversation is one about keeping KNO3 set at a higher level (that is not what you are saying is it?) it's about how much I supply. And there is no reason to supply a nutrient any faster than it can be absorbed. And in the case of these plants, that is quite demonstrably somewhere around .75 to 1 ppm a day, which they are getting. If you think I should target a constant level higher than 14 ppm though, that's a whole different kettle of fish.

*BlueRam* - I've been up and down with the lights. This algae will thrive under lower light... better than the plants. I've got the lights set where they are to encourage the plants to grow. When I turn them down the algae really overtakes the plants. It's a dilemma. And as for a "shady side", these Tek reflectors are too good. Assuming I have any HO T5s running at all, they are going to hit most of the tank. Nice idea though.

BTW - what is a reset vs. a teardown?

*Shuks* - take a look at my response to Urkevitz. And are you sure you are actually running through 7 ppm per day - plants actually consuming that much? Or are you just adding that much each day, then whacking your excess in half at water change? There's a big difference.


PS - I'm lucky I didn't have to go on my biz trip afterall. If I did, I'd just have to start teardown now.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> I personally think the massive overdosing so many people do to their tanks here is a bunch of bunk. Too many examples of planted tanks (including high light) where the plants thrive on moderate doses. But hey, I'm the one with an incredible algae problem. So maybe I'm wrong.


My tank would be one of those you speak of. I never use any micros, even though I run 75% RO. Flourish only causes problems for me. NO3, PO4, and Fe. Test and dose once a week. That's it. I know every tap is different, but most ground water is full of the "good stuff". Oh yeah, I also dose my water changes to 20ppm K.

Nice photos by the way, Steve - algae or not. I never get tired of looking at that glass box.

BTW, maybe consider using one of these new photos to replace the one in your signature :hihi:


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## TheOtherGeoff

steve i still think the tank is uber cool lookin. it may be coveed with al;gae but its nice to look at. i know its all different when its in your house and you see it whenever you want to but you'll get a hold of it and it will be back to awesome again.


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## Betowess

unirdna said:


> BTW, maybe consider using one of these new photos to replace the one in your signature :hihi:


No NO NO. I love that Avatar. Best one on the forum, I mean in the jungle.:bounce:


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## unirdna

_Signature_, ol' boy. The stuff below the black line, not the avatar. I agree, that chimp must never leave.


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## Curare

Steve, I've gotta say I think you're on to something, while I'm not having a go at people who supercharge their tanks with over dosed regimes, but I will say that my tank (the phoenix 10 gal recevied very little dosing over the course of a week, and I thought that I'd end up having a big problem, and well...

What do you know? the plants never looked better and there is little to no algae.

I've reduced the amount I was feeding the tank in terms of trace, and now it's settled nicely. I think you're on to something, keep going with this theory, whats the worst that can happen? Another 5 day outbreak? you've already had one and everything sailed through it, just the aesthetics of the tank went a bit awry, nothing major.


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## scolley

*More news on the algae frontier...*

I'm not going to change my plans, per se, but I do have some more info that might be worth posting for the general knowedge of the community.

*First*, my shrimp die-off is definately not minor. It's hard to say how many have croaked, but from the carcasses scattered about, _I'd guess 100 to 150 died _with 100 to 150 remaining alive. That has got to add to the nitrates in the tank. But having said that, ammonia is zero. Nitrates are under control. So maybe in a heavily planted tank, with almost no fish, that number of shrimp dying is not a big deal.

*Second*, I've got another potentially significant fact the changed right before the tank went algae insane. _I turned off the UV_. Ted mentioned moving water from a healthy tank, which I did. And I turned off the UV to ensure I didn't toast any beneficial bacteria. Normally I turn it on from dusk to dawn. This could be a factor with this algea... will have to ponder the question.

*Third*, I've been scouring my records (I keep DETAIL records on my tanks) and realized that a major factor that changed before the algae got bad was _the addition of a second Eheim Pro II filter_. Coupling that with my observation within the tank that areas of higher flow seem to get more algae than areas of low flow, I'm wondering... could this have been precipitated, and then aggravated, by too high a flow in my tank? I'm getting maybe 350 gph as I recall. I don't know. But just to see, I've shut down one Pro II. So if it gets better in the next few days, I won't know if it was the solid CO2 numbers or the reduced flow. But that will be an easy thing to test if improvements happen.


And if improvements don't start showing up real quick, I'm gonna turn that UV back on at nite, before I try the mega-fert option.


PS - I'll change the sig. Thanks! And YES, the monkey remains! After all, who wouldn't take the advice of a monkey in a suit? It might be a monkey... but hey, it's wearing a suit! It _MUST _know what it's talking about. :icon_wink


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## Curare

Wow, I hadn't actually thought of the die off with the shrimp, something is definetly going on.

Keep the detective hat on scolley, you'll find a solution.


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## zero9046

i am most definately way out of my league here, but i recently read through medicineman's tear down journal, and if i recall correctly, he determined that his problems stemmed (no pun intended) from the well water he was using (which i guess equated to undesireable kH and gH levels), and the substrate that he was using? unless i missed a previous posting, have you ever taken those factors in to consideration? btw, despite the recent algea outbreak, your tank looks incredible.


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## shuks

> Shuks - take a look at my response to Urkevitz. And are you sure you are actually running through 7 ppm per day - plants actually consuming that much? Or are you just adding that much each day, then whacking your excess in half at water change? There's a big difference.


I add 2 1/4 tsp of KNO3 per week. By waterchange time, wich is once a week, my test kit reads about 10-15 ppm. Rounded off, that is 29 ppm of nitrate per week. So just over 4 ppm per day, seven days a week. 

at one point 1/2 of my tank was coverd compleatly with a huge bush of watersprite, and nitrate uptake was much more. My tank is considerably less dense these days.

Anyways, I think youre "overdosing" plan is what need to be done. Dose trace minerals and iron on a regular basis, and try and keep potasium and nitrate at 20 ppm. There is a very good sticky about dosing here --->http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/water-parameters/21944-_dosing-regimes_.html

what you consider fert "overdosing" is pretty much standard dosages.


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## scolley

*Dosing higher levels*

Thanks folks. I suppose I should be clear about my dosing conserns... it's not about "how much" people dose, as much as the "concentrations used, i.e. - average PPMs". I'm familiar with all the stickies, and all the "common practice". I just suspect that practice is flawed in some of its assumptions.

But I _do not_ want to take that debate here. Please. There's lots of other better places for that.

*zero9046 *- I've got two tanks using my tap water, one healthy, one not. So my assumption is that I don't need to worry about the water. Thanks.

*Shuks *- I've worked out a spreadsheet on what you've said, and depending on whether you are measuring 10 or 15 ppm NO3 before your water change, and depending on whether your source water has 0 or 10 ppm NO3 in it to start with, I get a range of daily uptake rates from as high as 4 ppm to as low as 2.9. I'd be happy to share that with you or discuss in a PM, if you want.

Either way, that's a much higher uptake rates then my plants are doing now, _at least_ 4 times higher. 

But I believe that the levels that I keep the tank at now (steady state achieved with autodosers) are sufficient for the plants growth. I _do not _believe that by increasing fert PPMs, and changing no other factors, will cause the plants to grow faster, increase uptake, or beat back the algae.

But as I stated before, I could be wrong. This will be a great, highly visible test that we can all learn from. Let's see what happens.roud:


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## scolley

*I was wrong about being wrong...*

When I came back to from this recent trip, you may recall that I replaced my CO2 probe, and also got a handheld as a backup pH test. And when I calibrated them both that fateful evening, they confirmed that my existing probe was reading 0.3 too low, meaning that my CO2 was a good bit lower than I wanted, but still far from bottomed out.

Well, guess what? I was wrong!

I've been pondering the source of this last massive algae explosion, which seemed to be concurrent with my ghost shrimp die off. Knowing that I've had bamboo shrimp die in the past when I let the CO2 get too high, I decided to question both my new probe, and the handheld. Granted they had both been calibrated a few days ago. And granted, they both gave the same reading. But I opened a fresh packet of 7.01 solution anyway. And guess what!

The both were reading 0.2 too high!

Wow! How does that happen? I just calibrated them with fresh 7.01 solution 4 days ago? Do new probes got through a break-in period or something? I've got no good explanation for this one. But it does start to put an interesting picture together...

1) It means my old probe really wasn't off by 0.3, but only off by 0.1.
2) And that means my CO2 was pretty high when I had that algae explosion.
3) And that could explain why so many shrimp died.
4) And all those dead shrimp could be directly linked to the algae explosion.

This means I've had plenty of CO2 for quite a while now. I just messed up by adding a bunch of shrimp that I was going to kill.

Of course all this is predicated on believing that my two new pH probes somehow calibrated wrong a few days ago, and are correct now. I'm still scratching my head over that one.


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## Betowess

Schmuck Noun: (Yiddish) a jerk [syn: shmuck, schmo, shmo]
23 Moby Thesaurus words for "schmuck":
ass, born fool, buffoon, clown, doodle, egregious ass,
figure of fun, fool, idiot, ignoramus, jackass, jerk, lunatic,
milksop, mooncalf, nincompoop, ninny, perfect fool, softhead, sop,
stupid ass, tomfool, zany

For all those wondering what an Algae Schmuck is. I have some red algae rearing its ugly head, so I guess I'm a pinko shmo myself.


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## Martin

Wauv.... has taken me the better part of the past week reading through this massive journal.
After reading through all this, I feel I've developed an understanding of how you _want_ things to be run. You've taken some serious beatings, but kept your head up (except for the chanting bit)
You definitely have a great looking tank, all things considered. 
Perhaps you should put on a dirty shirt, get the old hoze out, and try to rid yourself of the silica sand. I have no idea if the sand is to blame, but since there are rumors, why not test it.
First though I'd try this... ( I've read how you've loathes micro's.. ;-))
I'd try dosing TMG in standard quantities, to make sure that it isn't micro's you're lacking.. 
You've seen the effects of microdeficiency, and what happens when you add it back into the tank.
I've tried something similar, and after adding TMG ( and watching algae thrive) I kept at it, and it actually stopped the algae growing after a while. 
I reckon that algae acted like your plants ie. major growth because of the TMG. A reaction of sorts to the sudden addition of micros.
Perhaps it's a stage you must go through to set your plants straight. 
You plants are growing nicely, but perhaps they are not as strong as they could be. If they start growing in an enviroment that is stable, with sufficient dosing, they might develop a stronger growth, that will strike back at the algae. So take a 1-2 week test period, and supply enough TMG to always be in excess.

Just a thought from a Danish (newly discovered word(Thx Betowess)) Mooncalf...cracks me up.....

Martin


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## scolley

*Gonna try micros*

*Martin *- I can't imagine laboring through this whole thread. But your advice is timely. Many people have urged micros, and I've resisted due to the explosions it has caused each time I tried. But I've eliminated virtually every possibility, now that I _know _that it is not a CO2 issue, except problems with the substrate and dosing.

Yesterday I was just about to start my "high" dosing schedule which included micros. But I realized that if I did that, and it worked, "high" doses could get the credit when it was really just the micros. Conclusion?

I've got to give it a little time on with a moderate micro regimen before I start the "high" dosing test.​
This could get ugly, but I'm going to give it a shot. So the path now is:

1) Try moderate micros for a while. Even if it gets ugly.
2) If required, try "high" fert concentrations for a while.
3) And if required, blackout for a few days.
4) If that doesn't work, replace the substrate - nope, not doing this option. Too much work for uncertain gains. If it gets this far, I'm going straight to the next option.
5) Tear-down and scour tank and equipment.​

*CONCLUSIONS*
I think this process is at a point where a couple of conclusions can be drawn. 

1) CO2 may help with algae problems, and it my eliminate some. But it does not eliminate all of them. I've been running in ranges from the low 40's to the high 60's (and at times higher) for a while now and the algae could not be happier. It pearls everyday along with everybody else.

2) Filling a tank up with growing plants does not guarantee elimination of algae. My tank is not "full", not many 75's are. But there are a lot of full height, growing plants in it, and as before, the algae is pretty happy.

I'd be happy to hear from anyone that disagrees. I've kept this process open and documented, so that we could all learn. I think I've learned this. So if you disagree, based on the evidence I've presented here, let's hear it.


*Bob*- It never occurred to me that people wouldn't know what a schmuck was. I suppose I live so close to New York city that even a Mobile boy like myself is exposed to a modicum of Yiddish. Thanks for the clarification.:icon_wink

*Ted *- I switched my sig, as per your suggestion. It's a bit more honest. And humbling.


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## Martin

I can't think of anything you haven't tried.... apart from the blackout.

The root cause must be found out... There's no evil curse!

I know it's a cliché but try disregarding the kH/pH relationship and ,..... here my thoughts trail off.... I seem to remember.... hold on to your hats.... that Eco-Complete Screws up the pH/kH relationship??
Would that account for the Co2 bottle lasting so long? 
I've read lots of people saying that you cannot trust the Co2 charts when using EcoComplete....

Did I miss this in the thread? Has this been investigated?

Perhaps I'm grasping at straws, but I do believe there might be something here....


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## scolley

*You can tell the difference in a single day...*

Well, I dosed a small amount of micro today - .66 ml TMG. I'm planning on using that amount each day because that's the least my doser can pump in 1 minute. And it also happens to be much less than 1/2 of Tropica's recommended initial dose. They recommend doubling the dose after a while. And the results were quite visible to me...

I had new leaves coming out in deeper, richer colors. And I would swear I had more new leaf buds sprouting. But I also had much more algae.

Today was the first time, since I last added micros, that I had multi inch threads trailing in the tank that had grown in a single day. The algae pretty much exploded. There is no way I'm going to be able to stay on top of this with my 30 minutes/day manual removal. This will take over the tank in 10 days or so. So I'm hoping the plants kick in and start vigorous growth and somehow push back the algae.

I'll post more after I've been at the micros for a few days. It won't take long to know if this is working I'm afraid.


*Martin *- you are raising good points. I'll take another whack that this CO2 chart tomorrow, after the water sample I gathered tonight has a chance to out-gas. This method does not deal with KH _at all_, so maybe it gets around the EC concerns you are raising. It's worth a look. Thanks.


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## Martin

I'm not sure how much EC messes with the kH/pH charts. I just remembered that I was thinking of ADASoil ( Guess I just got excited), but I still think you should check the Co2.
I'd put a pice of black tape over the pH-display, and crank up Co2 quite a bit. According to Co2 charts I have 189ppm of Co2 in my tank. My fish dont seem too aggravated over it....


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## scolley

*It IS NOT a CO2 issue*

Well, I'm done with CO2 checking. After allowing a sample of tank water to outgas overnight, I checked the CO2 of the sample - 7.8. Then I checked the pH of the tank - 6.4. Using this chart, I would conclude that my CO2 is 75 ppm. If I use our tradition KH based charts, with a KH of 4.75 degrees, that gives me 53 ppm CO2.

There's quite a bit of difference between 75 and 53 ppm, and would be good to know why they don't agree. But one thing I do know is that I DO NOT HAVE is a CO2 issue.

Case closed. I'm not talking about CO2 any more. Thanks for asking.


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## Martin

I know you dont want to talk about this.... so I'll do the talking ;-)

Scolley, what I was trying to suggest was that you close your eyes to your measurements, testsets and charts, and ask the plants.
It sounds a bit silly.. I know... 
Ignore your readings, and crank up the Co2. 
My kH in tank is 10
My pH with added Co2 is 6.2 
According to Chuck's chart, that gives me 189ppm of Co2. Now that is a fair amount.... according to the charts.... Yet I see no signs of fish jumping ship, no dead shrimp, no signs of Co2 overdose..

I'd say it was worth checking this venue.

Anyway.. I'll see if I can stop talking about Co2 now =)


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## scolley

Martin - thanks for the help, but this is an area where I can't be helped any further. Because I'm digging my heels on this and refuse to discuss CO2 any further. I've had it with CO2.

My tank looks like a soda bottle that someone gave a good shake to in the mid afternoon... there are so many bubbles. If you stick your arm in and break the surface, the sound of tiny bubbles bursting sounds almost like someone pouring a Coke over ice in a glass.

I don't know if that is CO2 or O2. I don't really care. Because if it is CO2, that should be enough. If it is O2, then whatever CO2 is required to generate that much photosynthesis, should also be enough. I'm not going to crank the CO2 until I see signs of my poor fish in distress.

I have too many data points that say whatever is in there now should be enough. As I stated much earlier in this thread (repeatedly), I will not use CO2 as a poison for algae, only as a macro nutrient for plants. And there appears to be plenty of that particular macro nutrient.

Now I'm done. Sorry, but I've had it with CO2. Enough is enough.


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## Bert H

Steve, you're probably aware of this and perhaps I missed it somewhere, just wanted to mention to be sure to give your new 'routines' a couple of weeks before deciding whether they are effective or not. Your experiences with this tank read like a biology textbook of experiments/results.  I just read over this thread at apc and thought about you and a total teardown. Hang in there!


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## Wasserpest

Sorry to hear about your struggles... makes for good reading though :smile: 

Earlier you had tried reducing the light, and found that plants reacted negatively.

I think nutrient levels are not that critical for algae free tanks. I think CO2 isn't that critical for algae free tanks. Once the tanks are balance. Which yours obviously isn't.

I suggest cutting the light to about 2W/gal. This will have negative effects on some plants, if you consider that negative - slowing down explosive growth, less red, more green. Maybe you will even get some diatoms. Big deal. It will slow down algae, and make your cleanup a little more effective.

I think stuffing a tank full of plants from the beginning works well... but not if it is already overrun with algae.

Tanks go through algae explosions and algae did-offs and then become pretty much immune. I found that very clearly with the most recent (36gal) tank I set up. Once that balance is reached, you can increase light, fertilizers, bioload, whatnot, and balance will still remain strong.


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## scolley

Bert H said:


> Steve, you're probably aware of this and perhaps I missed it somewhere, just wanted to mention to be sure to give your new 'routines' a couple of weeks before deciding whether they are effective or not.


Thanks Bert. Good advice, and I know it is absolutely what I should be doing. 

But I'm spending 1/2 hour every day (I mean EVERY day) with my arm in the tank doing manual removal, and have been for quite a while, just the to keep this stuff at bay. I travel a lot for work, and I'm lucky that I'm not having to travel now. But for that reason, I feel like I'm forced to try things on inappropriately short cycles.

I understand that degrades the quality of the "proof" of the results. But time is not on my side. Soon enough I'll be off on one of my frequent multi-week business trips, and the tank will go to h*ll in a hand basket. I gotta get this solved fast. Even if it means I cannot have the level of certainty I would like around the "proof" of the results.


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## Martin

Ok about the Co2.. as I said.. will try to resist.

Perhaps Wasserpest makes a good point with the lighting. Your plants and algae may be in a sort of equilibrium, and your plants cannot overtake the algae. 
Reducing your light may slow down the algae enough for your manual removal to have a better longterm-effect.


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## scolley

Wasserpest said:


> Sorry to hear about your struggles... makes for good reading though :smile:


Hey, thanks for chiming in! It's not exactly a photogalley any more, but it seemed to make sense to keep the process documented... so many people seem to be following this, it seemed kind of natural to make this a mutual learning exercises (or carnival sideshow, depending you your perspective :icon_eek: ).




Wasserpest said:


> I think nutrient levels are not that critical for algae free tanks. I think CO2 isn't that critical for algae free tanks. Once the tanks are balance. Which yours obviously isn't.
> 
> I think stuffing a tank full of plants from the beginning works well... but not if it is already overrun with algae.


I'm very much inclined to agree with all your points here. In fact, I think I've proven it. Good enough for my own satisfaction anyway.




Wasserpest said:


> Earlier you had tried reducing the light, and found that plants reacted negatively.
> 
> I suggest cutting the light to about 2W/gal. This will have negative effects on some plants, if you consider that negative - slowing down explosive growth, less red, more green. Maybe you will even get some diatoms. Big deal. It will slow down algae, and make your cleanup a little more effective.


I've already gone through one testing cycle with reduced light. I found that the algae seemed to deal with the reduced light much better than the plants. So I abandoned that tack due to the "get the plants cranking so they can beat the algae" philosophy.

That said, the plants are growing reasonably well, and the algae could not be happier. Now don't get me wrong, I'm sure the plants could be happier. Just one look at the algae covering every inch of the plants surface and you KNOW that's gotta be having a negative impact.

But this "get the plants cranking so they can beat the algae" philosophy does not seem to be working, if for no other reason than the fact that the algae is already the dominant force in this tank. Maybe it's time to give light reduction another shot, as you suggest.

Even though, and make no mistake about it, this algae grows _very well _in low light.

You got any idea what 2 WPG (as we normally speak of it) is on a 54w x 6 HO T5? Maybe just running 2 54w lamps (over my 75g tank)? I know that's much less than 2 wpg, strictly speaking. But there is this whole Tek T5 reflector efficiency thing that has to be factored in.


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## Wasserpest

scolley said:


> You got any idea what 2 WPG (as we normally speak of it) is on a 54w x 6 HO T5? Maybe just running 2 54w lamps (over my 75g tank)? I know that's much less than 2 wpg, strictly speaking. But there is this whole Tek T5 reflector efficiency thing that has to be factored in.


I would suggest running 3 of the bulbs (if that is possible). 2 bulbs might be enough, but your plants are probably used to higher levels now and you don't want to risk a complete standstill/meltdown.

You are right in that your algae will continue to grow in lower light. But not as fast as now, and it might give your tank a chance to stabilize some. Lowering light makes the other parts of the puzzle (ferts, CO2) less critical.

Remember once you are over this, you can always go back to the full blast of HO T5, sans algae


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## scolley

Yeah, I'm not sure why, I think I'm reporting this pretty well, but everyone seems to be under the impression I'm running cranking light. But I'm not.

Right now, and for quite a while (give or take 30 minutes per day), I've been running the following:

9 hour total photo-period

starting 108w for 4.5 hours (or two 54w bulbs)
- then -
mid day 216w for 2.5 hours (or four 54w bulbs)
- then - 
end of day 108w again for 2 hours​
So for 6.5 hours thats only 108w (1.45 WPG) and a 2.5 hour peak of 216w (2.9 WPG). I only see 2 reasonable options here...

1) Run 108w for the entire photo period
- or - 
2) Cut the middle 216w back to three bulbs making it a 162w for 2.5 hours.​
And when you think about it, option one is running pretty low light. Seems that way to me anyway. And option two is only a 54w reduction for 2.5 hours. That's a reduction certainly, but given we are only talking about a 0.72WPG reduction for 2.5 hours a day. It doesn't seem like a drastic change.

Thoughts?


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## Wasserpest

Uhm... I assumed... and you know how this goes... that there was more light involved. 6x 54W? I'll shut up and re-read the thread. :redface: 

Maybe, just maybe, a nice long blackout would be worth trying. I never recommended that, but at this point, I don't see why not. Should be easy too, going on a business trip, you can't peek anyway.


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## scolley

Wasserpest said:


> Uhm... I assumed... and you know how this goes... that there was more light involved. 6x 54W?


No prob! It's a long, long, long thread. But no, with only 2.5 hours of 4 bulbs, there is NO WAY I'm boosting up to 6x54w! Not with this algae.

Frankly, the colors on my Ludwigia are so nice, you can definately argue that no matter what I'm running - it could be less. And I am considering that. But more on that after I give the micro test another day or two.

And I would be moving straight to black out now. But I've listened to SO many people saying "micros!" and "more macros!" that I cannot resist this opportunity to test to see if one of those two is the solution.

I do not personally believe either is. But this is my only chance to prove it. Being forced to use short test cycles is the only drawback.

And then again, I might just be proven wrong.


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## Wasserpest

I was *assuming* you ran all 6 bulbs. No way I would suggest this. Since you are already running a pretty reasonable light schedule, I guess that proves I was wrong with my assumptions. Good thing is there are always a lot more things to try... blackouts, more nutrients, less nutrients, algivores, various chemicals (H2O2 and such), total tear down...


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## Betowess

I gotta say it one more time. I think its something in the substrate. Maybe a combo of the Eco and silca sand?? Hate to say it. But I think that is the mystery here. And without time and money, we can't prove it. But I have always had more wierd algae probs with Eco than with Flourite. We'll, come to think of it, I had some pretty good probs with Flourite when first starting out too. But, its gotta be something. At least that's my guess. Maybe the blackout will prove me wrong.


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## John P.

I admire Steve's patience. I had algae woes with Cladophora. I was able to keep all other algae at bay except for it. After fighting it for 1.5 years, I nuked the affected tank with bleach, and saved only a few well-screened plants (and Cardinals and Chrry Shrimp).

Almost 2 months later, I've never been happier. The bleach eradicated the Cladophora, and I just sit back and admire lush growth with no algae. I haven't scrubbed the glass (acrylic, actually) in about 3 weeks, and there's hardly anything on it. No algae in there excpet for a little greenspot on my rock hardscape from the tank's 1st few weeks. A UV knocked out the GW that bloomed b/c of the bacteria eradication. No problem. This is what it's all about.

Steve, I'm only mentioning this to let you know that your enjoyment is only a weekend's worth of bleaching away. You're focused and bright--something out of your immediate control (substrate--well, perhaps) seems to be hampering your best efforts.

I think I was one of the early people who suggested building this tank, so I'm going to make another suggestion: get drastic, 86 your substrate (perhaps try ADA Aquasoil, & careful with the powersand), cycle bleach through the tank for a few days, dechlor, rinse, repeat, and start over.

The results can be wonderful.


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## scolley

*Wasserpert *- Yup. Easy assumption to make, but most of the day I'm running 4 bulbs less than the full 6 I'm afraid. I think with this tank discussions of too little light are just as valid as discussions of too much. Particularly since this particular algae is implicated with too little light.

*Bob *- I'm hoping it is the substrate too. Or maybe the sand in it. Either way, if I get to blackout and that doesn't work, then the EC and all the sand in it is hitting the dumpster on teardown.

*John *- Your advice is good. Thanks. It was you that suggested I build this tank, and now that I'm almost 9 months away from all the pain that caused, I'm relaxed enough for a nice big
"_Thanks pal! - Good idea!_"​Helluva lotta work. But a good idea! I love the tank...

I've seen your posts on your bleach, and am planning on the strong possibility of following you. This weekend I'll probably be moving to a "high dose level" regimen to satisfy the "crank up the ferts" voices out there. And if (when) that does not work I'm gonna give blackout a shot just because I'm stubborn.

After that it is teardown and bleach. 

The killer is, after the nightly manual removal (this stuff comes off real easy if you have the time) the tank actually looks pretty good. Not landscaped anymore, but nice growth. Some of the Ludwigia is actually getting lush.

Too bad. Would be nice to be able to fix it before hitting it with the bleach.


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## MoonFish

scolley, I have followed this thread a while. It is like a mini novel. I think that green algea is the easiest one to kill off. It has been for me. You have auto dosers and all of this cool stuff set up that I wish I could get going on my tank. 

I wouldn't tear down the tank if it was me. You don't learn anything that way. I tried it long ago and some of the plants suffered quite a bit. Maybe my error, I dunno. 

Maybe you could unplug and put all of the test kits away for a couple of weeks and dose EI stuff dry and see if there was any change. Well, if you are home for a while, you could try that. Maybe in all of the complexity of auto dosing something is not quite right. I can't speculate on what but 1/2 hour a night of algea removal seems quite steep. 

I ain't takin a poke at you but there are a lot of calculations involved and if one is off or whatever it would explain things. I think it is cool that you put the ugly picture up. People kinda hide those for pride's sake and it gives people the false impression that everything should be awesome, pristine and perfect all of the time. 

Do you have super fast growers in the tank?


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## Brex

I have been reading this thread for a while now, and I just want to say thanks to scolley for keeping it going through all the tough times. As a person who is just getting into planted tanks the whole thread has been a great source of information. I especially liked the Bass you kept for a while, I once brought home a juvenile Bluegill for my 10 gal tank. He ate almost all my Tetras overnight and was back in the pond the next day!

I noticed a few pages back that you first started seeing big algae problems after you added your second canister filter (p.27). I thought I would also mention that on p.25 you reported that your lone SAE jumped out of the tank, leaving you without much of an algae crew. You recently tried ghost shrimp without much effect, but have you considered reintroducing several SAEs to your tank?

Brent


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## scolley

*new plan, need more light, more pics, and massive post...*

Sorry folks. I know you must be going nuts with me constantly changing my mind on how to battle this. But the additional micros is doing nothing, if not increasing the rate of algae growth. More new plant growth too, but nothing next to the extra algae. Time for a new strategy...

*Light*
Waserpest got me thinking about light. This algae thrives in low light. You should see how much grew since I cleaned the tank last night - just from ambient light, before I ever turned the Teks' on. And I'm not sure the algae grows a whole lot faster when I burn 4 bulbs. So I'm gonna try kicking the light up a bit. Goodness knows the plants have every thing they need. Maybe I've been holding off of the light, and keeping them from kicking into high gear that way.

I've got some calculations around what kind of light I think these Teks are kicking out, vs. T12 NO's which is a more "normal" bulb for WPG discussions. It uses BlueRam's "T12 Multiplier" for the efficiency of the bulb, and my own estimate of the extra light kicked out by the improved reflection in a Tek T5 vs. your average T12 fixture. So the chart below show what I'm shifting my light schedule to, and what I think the equivalent impacts are. This is an increase from my current schedule of starting 4.5 hrs @ 2 bulbs, 2.5 hrs @ 4, and then 2 hrs @ 2 bulbs. All the bulbs are 54w.












*Brex *- Welcome to PT! Sorry about the bluegill.:hihi: 

The amount of flow is a definite issue with this particular algae. It is evidence by more algae in high flow areas, more on leaf edges, and the longest threads are often on the tip of pointed leafed plants. Yup, it follows the water flow.

As for the SAE's I've thought about them, but I want to keep this a realistic biotope. SAE's do a good job, but they swim so d*mn fast, I've assumed that once they did their job I'd never be able to get them back out. For that reason alone I've not brought more it to help.

*Moonfish *- Great post! It was kind of a "maybe the emperor has no clothes" for me moment. In other words, skip the complicated and error prone and just do the simple thing that works for so many people. I'll tell you, it's really, really hard to argue with that.

I know you aren't taking a poke. There are a lot of calculations to do autodosing, and 1 mistake could really mess you up. What you don't know of course, is how my life is FILLED with spreadsheets, and how comfortable I am with being CERTAIN about calculations. My livelihood depends on it. These fishtak calc's are peanuts. So you're comment it well made. Thanks!

But any spreadsheet is only as good as the assumptions behind it. So if I had perfect calculations assuming that there were 0.3785 liters per gallon, instead of 3.785, I'd have spreadsheet calculating everything perfectly - perfectly wrong.

That's what test kits are for. And because I don't trust my test kits, I've got kits to test the kits.

But why bother you might ask?!!? Just do IE! Because I've got a few personal goals that I'd like to accomplish, to help the hobby:

1) Lean (and share) how to get unsightly equipment out of the tank
2) Demonstrate that flora and fauna from North American can still be beautiful tank
3) Automate (and share how) everything reasonably possible​
That last one is what keeps me off IE. That plus a personal hang-up. I can't stand not knowing what's going on. I'd rather tinker and test to get something running like clockwork, than to do less work and say "it works, I'm just not sure how". It's a fault. Sorry.

So we will never know for sure if I'm off 1 decimal place in a calculation somewhere, messing everything up. But I'll always know, that my test kits, and the kits testing my test kits (because independent tests agreeing are much less likely to be both wrong than any single test), say I'm not.


*PICS*

Here's what the tank looks like today.









And here's what it looks like up close. :icon_neut This plant was clean last night. This is what it all looks like between the nightly cleaning, and noon the next day. Every day.










*NEWS FLASH*
And I JUST ran out of CO2! That's a 5 lb tank in 2.5 months in a 75g tank. Figure I'm using enough? Gotta get a bigger tank.


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## Curare

Steve, you're right about getting SAE's out of the being a major pain in the butt.

BUT! hehehe I have had good results with using a fish trap to get the little buggers out of my tanks when I've needed to.

It's pretty simple, just get a gatorade bottle or something similar, punch some holes around the periphery, and cut the top off it, and re attatch the top so the spout is facing inside. then you just "load" the trap with some tasty morsel like bloodworms or hikari bites, and sink it. wait a while, and watch what happens. I had to wait about 10 minutes for my first SAE to jump into the trap!


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## Jdinh04

Man I wished I had your tank, it would be hell of a fun journey getting all that algae off.


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## scolley

Jdinh04 said:


> Man I wished I had your tank, it would be hell of a fun journey getting all that algae off.


Come on over! I'll grab a beer and watch someone else with their arm in the tank for a switch. Takes a while though... might need two beers. :icon_wink 


Curare - have sent a PM regarding your suggestion. Thanks.


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## Curare

Hehehe Scolley I see that you require the same elixir that I do when tank cleaning.

Not that the world revolves around beer of course, but it certainly lubricates the axles!


----------



## scolley

I started worrying that all this trouble was a waste of time when someone I really trust told me that there was no way I was ever going to get rid of this stuff, short of scouring the tank, once it got established.

So I started this thread to see if anyone had ever gotten a really bad case of thread algae, like this, and got rid of it without using algae eaters, and knew how they did it.

I got a good lead from bharada regarding massive (IMO) doses of K2SO4. So I'm giving it a shot, with doses high enough to equate to 60ppm worth of dosing to the tank this week.

I put the dose in last nite, and I know this algae well enough, I'll be able to tell tonight if there was enough of a reduction in growth to be noticeable.

We'll see. Fingers crossed!


----------



## scolley

*It's worse.*

Well, I'm through manually removing this stuff. There was a time when I could spend 1/2 and hour and get what looked like most of it. No longer. So I've had it with the manual removal.

Summarizing the things that have changed this week:

1) Moderate increase in the lights (detailed a few posts ago)
2) Bumped my K up to 60 ppm
3) Started moderate dosing of micros @ .66 ml TMG a day​
The result - it's just much worse.

So I ripped out all the Sagittaria subulata. It was growing, but is was a real magnet for this algae. And I topped off all the Ludwigia because the stuff at the top of the tank was getting pounded by the algae, I assume due to light proximity. So I replanted the tops where the sag used to be along the back of the tank

Plans going forward
1) I'm gonna boost my K up to 90 ppm, and my N to 20 ppm, which will put my numbers in line with the numbers bharada was running when he got the best of his thread algae. I'll give that a few days, but if I can't see improvement very soon...
2) I'll give Wö£fëñxXx's dosing recommendations a whirl. But I'm worried about that because if it doesn't help, or if it makes things worse, I know that my patience for keeping that up for long will be low.​
I've about had it with this stuff, and I'm right on the edge of throwing in the towel. This tank is in a prominent place in my home, and instead of being a think of beauty it's an eyesore - and source of frustration every time I look at it.


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> This tank is in a prominent place in my home, and instead of being a think of beauty it's an eyesore - and source of frustration every time I look at it.


This point is lost sometimes. I can't blame you one bit, Steve. You've patience has already held out longer than mine would have. "Experiments" are only fun when they are controllable :icon_roll . Start devising your plan...


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## Steven_Chong

Time for tear down and massive fatty re-scape Steven says. XD

JK man. To be honest, reading these recent posts I always thought to myself, "Bah, a little bit of algae is just expectable and it's impossible to be COMPLETELY rid of it . . . don't see why Steve is getting so wound up." Well that was before I saw the pic you moved to your sig. :icon_eek: 

That's a lot of freaking algae! I wish you the best of luck man-- if its any consolation the last photo looks awesome, but I bet that like some of the earlier photos that made me think "bah, it looks good! What's he complaining about?" maybe it does not show much of what's going on (like the many hours of manual removal and piling beer bottles). :hihi:

Can't give you much advice man-- my general moto concerning algae is "have faith and patience and somehow it'll work out." :icon_roll For me that moto has treated me pretty well in the past *knock on wood*. But for you who has been obviously fighting the good fight one on one in a tank that should already be well established, that's obviously not the case.

If I were you I'd be tempted to start over-- it's been enough time to do so unless you wanted to use this lay out for a contest real soon. Me I'm just trigger-happy with starting new scapes (set up is so fun that's why). Maybe you need some fun man! :thumbsup: 


Well, whatever you do good luck in it Steve.


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## Architect1

Wow loved the bass pics its way to cool seeing him engolf the shrimp. Sorry to hear he ate them all. I love your tank vary amazing.


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## Betowess

Steve, just now saw the sig pic. Balls, you cracked me up. Next beers on me bro. LOL Your 20 is awesome, BTW.


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## scolley

Unirdna suggested putting the algae in the sig. Truth in advertising and all that.:hihi: It's appropriate IMO. 

The chance of me doing anything other than tearing up this tank, scouring, and starting over is very low. Even if I do beat the algae (unlikely) the tank is now nothing like I originally intended. The tall background is gone (first giant hairgrass, than sag.), the wood is gone, and the sand path across the front and bisecting the middle of the tank is gone. Even most of the native fish are gone. What I have instead is a tank full of Ludwigia (consistent with biotope) and Hygrophila polysperma (definately not within the biotope). And a really nice mat of algae covered dwarf hairgrass.

What's to keep?

Even if I do "beat" this algae, I have reason to believe the best that can mean is just "no significant new growth". So I'll have to go through the long process of growing out uninfected stems and replacing the bad ones. And then there is the army of non-indigenous algae eaters (Amano's I suppose) to keep the monster in check.

The only reason why I'm hanging on is because so many people are at odds with the fert levels I've chosen (traditional N:12-14, P - 1.5-2, K - 20-30, instead of massive doses), and are at odds with the methods I use (daily small doses confirmed with testing vs. IE type toss in ferts and forget).

As such I feel that my methods are a bit on public trial here. Which is fine and fair. But now, if I can tolerate the ugliness of this for a little while longer, I need to give EI and the fert levels commonly used here at PT a shot. Not because I believe it will fix the problem, but to put to bed the questions as to whether my level and methods were the problem.

If I'm wrong and that fixes everything, well I don't mind eating a bit of humble pie if I finish my meal as a wiser man.:icon_wink


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## Betowess

To tell you the truth, I'm really looking forward to what's next Steve. As you know, this thread has been a gas to follow and looking at your 20G last night confirmed again what you are capable of. But then Bass eating shrimp and movies of you hand trolling in a 75G low lead glass handmade tank... it's going to be a hard act to follow! roud:


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## Bert H

Steve, I feel for you, man. You certainly have more patience than I ever would! I would tend to agree that it's time for the major teardown.  But perhaps this last change will improve things. In any case, when you're ready for more H. micranthemoides let me know. BTW, that 20gal of yours looks great!


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## scolley

*What next???*

Thanks Bob. Once I tear this down, I'm not sure what's next. But I'll tell you though, it's not likely to be nearly so public (or amusing). This thread, and the tank building thread have been just a bit much. While they have been sources of amusement for me, and areas where I could get wonderful help, they are also a bit of burden to keep up with.

Belive me, if it weren't for the fact that now I feel like I owe it to everyone to see if baharadra's high Potassium method works, and the fact the I owe it to everyone to give EI a whirl, this tank would be dry as a bone. And I'd be contemplating what to do next.

Don't get me wrong. I will post the results. But I let myself get talked into starting this tread before I was ready. Next time, there will be no journey. Only the results when it reaches a reasonable level of completion.

I'm not sure what I want to do next. I'd really like to do a north american biotope. But the lack of good (non-plant eating) algae eating critters is a a real problem. Leaned that the hard way.

No. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it yet, but I'm inclined to go for beauty next time. Simple. Colorful. With beautiful fish.

But not technically challenging. I want the challenge to be in the aesthetics, not in keeping the tank viable. I've had it doing hard stuff.

That's where I'm leaning anyway. Thank for the encouraging words.

PS - Thanks to you too Ted, Steven, Bert and Architect1

PPS - Yup, pretty soon , as Steven said, it's time for some fun.


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## bushie

*thanks for the ride!*

as a last resort, have you thought about putting on some green war paint and trying to apease the algal gods?

seemed to work with the silicone!:icon_lol: 

thanks for an entertaining adventure.
close it down and have some fun.

you have far more patients thanis humanly good for you.
now go and enjoy.:thumbsup: 

BUSHIE


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## scolley

bushie said:


> as a last resort, have you thought about putting on some green war paint and trying to apease the algal gods?


LOL!!! :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

Thanks Bushie! And YES! I HAVE thought about that!

I'm not sure if you guys will think more, or less, of me for confessing that. But it's true. :biggrin: 

Why not? It sure as heck worked last time! I just couldn't figure out what to do. Burning a little sand was easy. What am I supposed to do now? Smear boiled cabbage on my body? Cut the warm heart out of an artichoke?

I dunno. If I'd thought of a good sacrifice, I'd have probably done it. But I was drawing blanks.

Thanks for the suggestion though! It had definately crossed my mind.

PS - welcome to PT! It was quite nice of you to make that your first post!


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## Wasserpest

I have been thinking about your tank... :icon_eek: 

SOMETHING is definitely out of whack. Something obvious... but hard to find.

You increased your lighting again, and I think this isn't a good move. Maybe you should give less lighting a shot, with two bulbs only. Why? The efficient reflectors, and running without covers, gives you more light with less wattage. The Ludwigia is missing all green... could be light, or something in the mix missing.

Anyway, the reason why something else must be out of whack... Otherwise many more ppl would have awful troubles with this sort of algae.

Have you considered sending some of the water to a Soil and Plant Lab or such to get it analyzed? I don't know how you test your test kits, you probably covered that earlier on.

I guess EI dosing should be your next step...

Have you considered taking out the fish (if possible) and giving the tank a nice H2O2 treatment?

Did you do the blackout?

Just bouncing ideas around, no real suggestions or solutions.


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## bushie

*algal bloomer*



scolley said:


> What am I supposed to do now? Smear boiled cabbage on my body? Cut the warm heart out of an artichoke?


not too algalish really!
what about wearing a seaweed wig and whipping yaself with thread coated ribbonweed.:icon_eek: 

just a thought!

anyway thanks for the welcome and just so you don`t think it was a waste of time, I`m sure you have taught so many people so much with this episode.
and also inspired so many with the beauty of your tank (algae and all).
good luck with the next scape and we look forward to the photos.

Bushie


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## scolley

Thanks Bushie!

Wasserpest - wow, long post...

I increased my light last week, and not radically. And it got worse. Granted, I also started dosing micros (a known villain in this little drama) and started Bill's high K routine. I think I had plenty of K before, so I'm not willing to credit the additional growth to that. No, the accelerated growth has to be either the lights of micros.

I'm gonna let the micros stand, if only because I have been restricting the tank from micros (it does make things worse), and I'm shifting to IE soon, at Craig's recommended levels. So I've got to start the one thing I've not been doing (micro dosing) now. Otherwise I could shift to IE, have it work, and it get the credit for the fix when in actual fact it was just the tank responding to finally getting micros.

So that leaves the light. Which I have lowered to the suggested 2 bulbs. I figure that to be about 2 WPG in a T12 NO tank. I had a good rationale about the light level I was running, but this is about the only thing really to try before switching to IE. I'll give it a shot for a few days.

Sending stuff to a lab is a good idea. Anyone know what that costs?

And I'm not going to be doing a blackout, or peroxide. The reason is because in fighting this algae, I have deviated way, way off from what I originally intended.

No, now I'm just going through the motions eliminating the possibilities. But even if I find it, this tank is badly contaminated, and I want to scour it and start fresh. But first I want to get to the root of the problem. If I can do that in a reasonable period of time.


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## scolley

*Last ditch efforts stupidity...*

Well, my LFS took pity on me and secured me a good sized shipment of Amano's - 50 of them! They gave me a deep discount, or I'd have never done it. I guess they feel sorry for me.

But that's cool. We'll see it 50 can make a dent in this monster!


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## uncskainch

Excellent! I hope they make a difference.


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## Wasserpest

Amanos are great! Little machines that never stop working. Hope you don't have any predators in that tank though... and don't kill them with CO2 and ferts overdoses 

6 of them in my 36 gal tank ran out of food very quickly... I am sure 50 of them will do some good in your 75.


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## scolley

Thanks Kathy. And Wasserpest, I see that little wink icon, but I know you can't be joking. With all the hoopla going into this tank right now, knocking out the amanos would be easy...

High CO2, high ferts, Excel, and not to mention having water up to the lip of the glass. I broke down and got an air pump to inject a bit of O2 into the tank at night. From what I've read (Tom Barr I believe) it's the lack of O2 that gets them at night more than anything.

I'll just have to be careful. But if I lose them, I'm not gonna sweat it too much. It is a last ditch effort really. And if it works, it works. But they were dirt cheap (for Amano's that is - God bless my LFS!), so I figured I'd give it a shot. But for any amount less than 50, I would not have even bothered. There's a lot of algae.


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## shuks

wow.. 50 ammanos at my LFS would cost me over 250$ 

If you look back in your thread, I originaly said that I thought suffocation was the cause of death for your shrimp, and I still think it is. IMO, a surface skimmer will oxaginate you tank better than an air pump. It's the surface film that prevents gas exchange. This could also be a big contributing factor to your algae problems. I dont know why you spend all this time and money on things to fix your tank, but you dont buy a 10$ protien skimmer? 

I'm assuming that you'll turn off the air pump during the day. So then you have problems with gas exchange during that time. You could easily gas your shrimp to death because your co2 will get much higher and O2 levels much lower.


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## scolley

shuks - these shrimp cost a fraction of that. It was the deal of a lifetime - that's why I did it. I probably should not identify the LFS, nor the price, should someone else request the same from them. Let's just say it was quite safely a 2 digit number.

And I'm not springing for a skimmer because I'm fighting a personal war on visible equipment. But your concern is well founded, so I'll just raise one of the lily pipes to stir up the surface. That will kill any film on the surface. 

BTW - that nasty film you saw on the surface in my pics was a one time event. Never before, never after. Normally there is no visible film on the surface, or if any, very thin and hardly visible. But the lily pipe will fix that.

Thanks for the tip. Hate to kill all those deal-of-a-lifetime amanos.


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## Curare

Steve, how about a surface skimmer on your intake, that's all clear?

hmm *curare ponders*

that's where I'm heading next, as surface scum is always a PITA for me.


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## scolley

Curare said:


> Steve, how about a surface skimmer on your intake, that's all clear?


Nope. That's out.

With an open top all glass tank, every little thing snaking up a side and over an edge visually works against that "big cube of water" illusion.

I will not hang another thing over the edge of the tank, not for any reason. Sorry. Raised lillies should work fine.


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## scolley

*We'll find out about those test kits...*

One of our esteemed members here is a chemical analyst, has all the equipment to do accurate water sample analysis, and has graciously offered to test my water for me! Not for free mind you, he has costs that he has to re-coup, not to mention time, opportunity cost, etc. But it is a really great price so I'm doing it. Seems I'm getting a lot of sympathy discounts these days! I'll let you know who it is, and my degree of happines with the process when it's done. But right now, it looks exciting.

I'm getting the following tested on my 75g tank water, tap water, and my 20g tank water:

1) Nitrate ppm
2) Phosphate ppm
3) Potassium ppm
4) Iron ppm
5) Calcium ppm
6) Magnesium ppm
7) Silicates ppm
8) Carbonate hardness degrees (US)
9) pH (this won't be too accurate)

Looking over this list I see I've left out the obvious General Hardness. I'll have to see about getting that added to the set of test.

I'll post what I think the values are for all of these BEFORE the tests are done. That way we'll all know if Steve really had a clue about his water chemistry. Because as we all know, if I've been wrong about this stuff, it could be the source of all my problems.

This is gonna be fun! Thanks for suggesting it Wasserpest.


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## alexandre

Hello Steve,

First excuse my grammar, I’m French.
I have been reading your both main threads for the last few months, and really enjoyed them (very lucrative and entertaining).
I decide today to put my pinch of salt because I had algae very similar to the one you’ve got, apart the colour, but maybe it’s just about lighting.
What I noticed:
Low light, high light don’t make any difference, just the rate of growing.
Nitrate 10ppm or 20ppm don’t make any difference.
Phosphate 0.5ppm or 2ppm don’t make any difference.
Potassium what ever I dose doesn’t make any difference.
Change my substrate three times in a year did not make any difference, two to three weeks later, same thing.
Now the micro, I know you tried and been told and this why I never had the gut to give you advice.
But this is what happen to me, 30G recommended dosage 5ml Flourish 3 x week and I got this algae. If I go to 10ml 3x week the plants take over and this algae disappeared.

All the best.


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## scolley

alexandre - Thanks! Your English is good. Much better than my French!

Man, it sounds like you really went through a hard time with this stuff. And here I was feeling sorry for myself. Wow!

What your are describing sounds exactly like what I've got. Nothing seems to make much of a difference except the addition of micros, which consistently causes an algae bloom. But your observation that at some point the addition of extra micros got the tank beyond the algae. I suppose the algae finally had all it could take in, and there was finally enough left over for the plants.

I've been pondering this possibility myself. In fact, last nite I doubled my daily micro dosage. It's still way below the recommended levels, at only 1.3 ml per day. But it is still twice what I was using last week. New leaves are appearing every day. But they are coming in light green, not dark green. So I figured I'd keep upping the dosage every day until I hit a point where my new leaves are coming in darker green. Maybe, like you, I'll find the stopping point is twice the manufacturers recommended dose. For my tank the Tropica recommended dosage would be 27 ml/week, so I'm dosing about 1/3 of that now.

I appreciate the post. I'll definately keep this in mind, as it really sounds like you had the same thing I do. Thanks.


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## alexandre

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your kind replied, because it was not easy to give you advice after people like Pjan, Wö£fëñxXx, etc. etc. witch of course have nothing to prove.
I would definably have a go at it, anyway you are so close to the start all over, what the hell!
Remember I done two tires down for no thing, the problem always did reaper.


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## A Hill

steve,

i hope all comes out well in the end it seems like the gw problem i have been having in my tank is nothing compared to your problem! i hope the amano shrimp help a ton. 50 of those around here for me would cost me at least $100 

the advise alexandre gave you sounds VERY interesting. i had a "similer" experience. 

when we set up the 10g when i was VERY young like 4 or 5 we had it up for around 2 years but eventually had to take it down to a HORRIBLE BBA attack. EVERYTHING covered. then 10 yrs later i set it up. use some gravel and a fake vine plant at first. bba comes after a while. :icon_frow 

then i end up deciding planted and take the tank down and set it all back up everything new but the tank. its going great but after say 4 months BBA HUUUGE outbreak. i end up using a 3x dosage to kill the stuff. the fish had been put into the 55g at this time so i didnt have to worry about anything besides the plants. no ill effects and it hasnt come back. i ended up taking it down after for a week to wash flourite because before then i had a copper problem and i wanted to be able to keep shrimp in it... but i put all the plants into 55g with no BBA back:biggrin: 

hope you have a good fortune in the future and get over this roadbumb!

-=- fish newb -=-

je parle francais dans l'ecole :hihi:


----------



## scolley

*I Think I Figured It Out!*

It hit me like a bullet! A blinding flash of the obvious it was! I do believe I know how to tame this beast. Not kill it. But tame it. And it is so easy, and dead obvious, I feel like an idiot that I had to have the evidence staring me in the face before I saw it.

And it came to me today as I was getting ready to do another water test. I took samples of my water today to ship off for testing. And a few hours later I had time to do my own tests of the water, so that after the professional test results come in we can compare my numbers to the real numbers.

And as I was reviewing in my mind what I though my numbers would be, it hit me like a flash. And I feel like an idiot for not seeing this sooner!

I'm not going to say anything else at the moment. Instead I'm launching top-secret project thread be-gone.

This means I'm though testing the high Potassium solution. And it means I'm not doing IE/Craig's dosing recommendations yet. I'll do that if this does not work. But based on what I think I've figured out, I'm afraid to move to that. And if I'm right, it may well prove I was right to be concerned.

I'll report back this weekend. This should not take long.


PS - I got the 50 Amano's today. All juveniles unfortunately - won't be big eaters. And I also broke down and picked up 4 good sized sailfin mollies.


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## A Hill

they will grow faster than you would expect...

and o great i wonder what the top secret thing is..... hmmm 

:help: money in a suite doing top secret thread algea research... "its the end of the world as we know it" :help:

good luck!

-=- fish newb -=-


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Good luck with the Shrimp


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## Alight

Sheesh, for those of us following along, with bated breath, hoping for a solution we can use, then the big secret?????(LOL).

Well, hope it works and you can spill the beans very soon!

Al Light


----------



## scolley

This will be no mystery. The solution has been hiding in plain sight for all along- if I'm right. But the numbers jumped up and screamed at me last night so I would stop ignoring them.

My observations this morning indicate this could take a little while, at the very least through this weekend. So now it's time to just hang back and wait.

And btw - whether it works or not, I'll spill the beans in a few days. Would like to see if it is going to work first though. More fun that way.:icon_wink


----------



## uncskainch

You really know how to keep us in suspense, Steve! We'll be watching...with fingers crossed! Are the Amanos making any difference? I wonder if juveniles are even better algae eaters than the adults since they are growing fast, making up for their size with sheer voraciousness? 

As an aside, I know that people who use geese as weeders on farms find that the juveniles are better weeders because they are hungry all the time and not too picky, as opposed to the adults who get a little complacent and only want the choicest morsels. Maybe shrimp are the same?

I'm looking forward to seeing how your new theory works out!


----------



## scolley

*You guys are gonna kill me...*

I've had some very productive PM's with Craig (Wö£fëñxXx), and he wants me to give his levels a shot. And I suppose that if I am right, and I can knock this stuff way back, then I won't have the opportunity to test those levels from the sticky if I kill all the algae first. Not much of a test huh?

I don't mind saying I really do believe this will make things worse. But now that I think I've figured out how to control this beast, there is less risk. So in the interest of giving the sticky levels a fair chance, I'm gonna put _project thread be-gone_ on hold. I'll resort to it if IE and the sticky levels don't work.

I'll tell you what I was doing when I get time to write it up. It's a bit of a long explanation, presenting all the evidence.

*So what am I gonna do???*
1) Stop my algae killing process
2) Daily 50% water changes for a few days to "reset" the tank
3) Start IE/Sticky levels
4) Not changing lights - already ridiculously low
5) Setting CO2 to around 40ppm, no more shrimp-threateningly high levels
6) Resume the algae killing process if the IE/sticky levels don't show promise.​
Sorry for the wild goose chase. I'll write up my algae killing revelation (a real blinding flash of the obvious that was) soon.


----------



## Bert H

Steve, this thread is beginning to feel like a 'whodonit' ! One of those serial mystery/suspense type tv shows where you can't wait 'til tomorrow to see what happens to the main character (in this case algae).  I find myself sitting here wondering what the heck it is that hit you in the face.  In any case, stay tuned, I can't wait to hear. Good luck.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

Steve,
Run the C02 24/7, just give yourself some surface movement at lights out and you will not harm the critters. 
Clean the tank real good, dose:

3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week

Keeping the C02 going straight for a bit will help alot in curtailing this algae.
When you get ready to start this, after the tank is cleaned, dont burn no more than 1 to 1.5 watt yet, Get the C02 cranking, dose, let it run a couple of hours, then ease into the light. you should see a difference in two days.



People that have used the sticky and then whined about having algae problems still do not understand the importance of C02.

I have personally on more than one occasion purposefully let a tank go south, by turning off the C02 dosing hard and burning the lights hard, talk about a mess, does not take long, just to reestablish the tank, using the sticky and managing C02 properly.
If you do your C02 right, you can have the tank in pristine condition in a week or less. I have done it several time, it worked every time.
The next time I do it, I will document it step by step.

It is really so simple that people miss it by complicating it.


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## scolley

Craig - you make it sound simple. And the advice on easing into the light could prove critical. Thanks.

And I'll try to switch off the SMS 122 to run 24x7. But that's gonna take some time to observe and set. I'll try to make the time... don't want to kill the inverts in the transition.

*Inverts*
Speaking of which, those amanos weren't as cheap as I thought. The deal on getting them so cheap was that I was to pick them up in a bag that came straight from the distributor that afternoon - never having gone into an LFS tank. And now I understand why they cost so much in the store. Many of the shrimp in the bag from the distributor were DOA. More were dead by the time I was putting them in the tank.

And this morning, more were dead in the tank. Though lots were still kicking too. I was oxygenating big time last nite, so I'm assuming that I inherited a lot of the attrition from distribution that the LFS would have normally absorbed. So instead of 50, I figure I got maybe 30-35. The unit price goes up...


----------



## naX

Bert H said:


> Steve, this thread is beginning to feel like a 'whodonit' ! One of those serial mystery/suspense type tv shows where you can't wait 'til tomorrow to see what happens to the main character (in this case algae).  I find myself sitting here wondering what the heck it is that hit you in the face.  In any case, stay tuned, I can't wait to hear. Good luck.


:iamwithst I was just thinking the same thing! I've read every single post in this thread since the beginning (and way before that with the actual build thread). It's become part of my daily ritual at work to check the post, and I'm always excited when I get a new *'Reply to post 'scolley's 75g Big Clear Kahuna (56K warning)'* message in my in-box. I'm afraid I don't have any suggestions, but I can say that I am following this tank no matter what happens. As of late, it's been a classic mystery novel, but with PICTURES (I really like picture books :hihi: )!!! Bert H hit the nail on the head... at least from my viewpoint.


----------



## scolley

*Operation algae be-gone*

As I stated earlier, I'm gonna give the EI/Sticky doses a whack, and put the algae killing idea of mine on hold. But here is that explanation for those of you that actually care to wade through this stuff. nax, bert, Kathy, I guess that's you. Many of you might want to skip this, it could be painful.

Bottom line - I think I know what drives this algae, and possibility how to get rid of it.


*And here's why*
OK, what am I claiming about my algae, and how to control it? Micros. More micros, more algae. No micros, less algae. So there is something limiting the algae growth that some micro satisfies. My experiences so far points to iron.

In my presentation of "facts" I haven't talked about everything going on in the tank. But instead only that information that I thought was really germane. So for instance, I haven't mentioned that the pipefish finally starved to death icon_frow bummer, I know). If suddenly the algae disappeared it would be germane - drop in fish load, less algae. But that didn't happen, so I didn't mention it. And there are other little things that I have not reported.

In order to autodose macros, I have to mix up a solution stock to be pumped into the tank. I've not bothered to go over the mixture of how much water to how much dry fert I use to create the solution. It hasn't seemed germane. The math is simple, and I'm using a digital scale, so the measurements are reasonable accurate. And testing bears stuff out to be true...

When the water company reports that there are 8ppm NO3 in my water, and I put 35 gallons in the tank in a water change, leaving the remaining 35g in the tankwith a known concentration of KNO3, I do the math and figure out how many ml of my stock KNO3 solution I need to bring the freshly changed water up to 20ppm. I add the amount then test it, and hand the test sample and color chart to my wife who says "Looks like exactly like 20 ppm to me." What do I conclude? That my test kit works, that my stock solution is mixed the way I though, and that I don't need to share any of this because it's not germane. What I share is "The tank is 20 ppm NO3".

I keep ridiculous records of how much of this stock I put into the autodosing reservoirs. Here's how my autodosing works:
1) I start with a tank set at the levels I want.
2) Every day a little of these stock solutions are pumped in, just enough to keep the tank at that same level.
3) Just before the water change, I check the levels. This lets me see variances in the uptake rates of various nutrients. And as the needs of the plants change (adding/removing plants, lots of growth, more/less light) the uptake rates change too. So I have to modify the amount dosed each day. Fortunately these things change slowly, so altering the mix of stock solution does not have to happen very often.
4) Just after the water change I check the levels, and add stock solution to bring things back up to the levels I want.​The cool thing with this is that if my daily dose is consistent with the daily uptake, then I can set the level at what I want after waterchange, and it will pretty much stay there until the next water change. That is until lately.

Over the last few months, my NO3 has stayed pegged on what ever I set it at. Generally that's been 12-14 ppm. But lately my PO4 has been drifting down. So much so, that I've had to start doing mid-week testing and adding supplemental KH2PO4. So I changed the mix in the fert reservoir, and increased the dosage. And for a while both NO3 an PO4 would remain all week at the levels I set them to after water change. But then PO4 started sliding again. The tanks daily uptake of PO4 kept creeping up, as evidenced by midweek testing showing the ppms slowing falling. So I changed the mix again. Now everything was cool again! Set it after water change, and the autodosers keep it right on target all week. I did not mention this because these changes have been small. Measurable, but small.

Now late last week I shifted to trying Bharadra's high Potassium solution to this thread algae. So I massively bumped up the Potassium (can't measure that). And this weekend I brought the rest of my numbers in line with his measurable levels - NO3 20 ppm, PO4 2.0 ppm. I was already there for PO4, so all I had to do was raise my NO3. And did.

Also late last week I increased my micros, first up from none, and then doubled them (still small amounts though). And I also reduced my lights.

So what did my tank do in response to algae killing levels of potassium, dosing micros, increasing NO3 modestly, and turning down the lights a bit? Well, my daily multi-hour afternoon session of pearling ceased. No more pearling. And more important, the algae exploded.

At Wasserpest's suggestion I sent water samples off to be tested. And did an early mid week test on the back of that to establish what my levels were, to compare my observations to the test results when they came in.

I play a little game with myself when I test. I always have it in my mind what the results are going to be, and then see how correct I am (or am not). Last nite I was knew I had the autodosing levels working again, so what ever I set the levels at after my last Saturday water change, they would still be there. As per Bill's suggested levels, I set them at 20 ppm NO3, 2.0 ppm PO4. And thats what I was expecting the tests to show, especially since it was only two days later, there would be almost no drift. PO4 was 2.0 as expected, but I was _really surprised _ to see NO3 had jumped to 25 ppm. What???

How could that be? PO4 had been drifting down due to increased daily consumption in that macro. But Nitrates creeping up? How? Then...

BAM!​
It all fell into place. Including feeling like an idiot for not seeing this before.

1) The tank lights were reduced so pearling stopped days ago.
2) If pearling stops, shouldn't nutrient uptake slow down? Of course it should.
3) Well that explains the rise in NO3, I've been autodosing daily to a level that would keep it constant at normal levels of photosynthesis. Now that is reduced, less NO3 uptake, rising levels due to autodosing.
4) But what about PO4? Shouldn't that be rising too? Not if something is using it.
5) Well I've got about 2 lbs more algae than at the water change 2 days ago. That's growing - faster than the plants right now. By far.
6) And my plants have been growing slowly, but my ratio of NO3 to PO4 uptake has been slowly shifting for a couple of months. More and more PO4 all the time. Just like the algae.
7) THE ALGAE LIVES OFF THE PO4!
8) And micros have some limiting factor in them (probably iron) that throttle how much fast it can grow. With the increased micros these past few days, the throttle has been opened, growth exploded, enough to measurably show up in the PO4 consumption (that should have been reduced - no pearling, remember?)
9) And one of the major, classic contributing factors to algae in a tank? EXCESS PHOSPHATES.​What an idiot I've been.

I may not kill all the algae spores without scouring the tank. But I believe I can drive the algae back to nothing visible by starving it - eliminate the phosphates in the tank. Now that will effect the plant too, but as I understand it, plants store nutrients for much longer than algae.

A bit of a forced diet can knock it back to a point where amanos could keep any new growth in check I'll wager. All it would take is tossing some Seachem Phosban in the tank for a few days, along with water changes, to eliminate the phosphates in the tank. Leave it that way a few days, then resume ferts and lights as normal. Hopefully the amanos will stay on top of any new stuff.

Well, that's the big, secret, dead-obvious idea anyway. If the EI/Sticky dosing does not kill this beast, I'm gonna give it a whack. Sorry that took so long.

BTW - I'm not sure if I would have seen this if it weren't for members Triple Red and Betowess, who both suggested starving it. In the case of Triple Red, it was the voice of successful experience. Thanks!

And PS - Yes, I know to many of you real guru's out there, eliminating phosphates to kill algae is probably a blinding flash of the obvious. So if you are going to chime in about how obvious this was to you, please also let me know why you didn't mention it earlier.


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## A Hill

all i can say is WOW! im still a newb but i feel like it was so obvious but we all just missed it. it wasnt just you... it was us. the people who are here and read this all the time. 

i think in the future with journals post EVERYTHING that happens. so if you dont catch something someone else will. 

also as for ur "guessing game" i would try and stop. its a human thing to guess before. and then when ur checking it. if its say a color thing or something, you will always think its a bit closer to what you guessed. so i would try not to do it. but ahh you know what your doing so its ur call.

but wow..... thats wow.... all i can say is wow...

it makes it wower for me is gregwatson just posted about that in the gw discussion.

maybe your finally over this!!!

goooooood luck!

-=- fish newb -=-


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## Wasserpest

I didn't mention it earlier because of the common "PO4 has nothing to do with algae" thing.

I think it might be worth a shot. Let the phosphates go down, it will take a while before plants start to complain.

Originally I set up all my autodosers to dose macros and micros separately, to be able to dose phosphates on a daily basis.

Simplifying things, I started to use only one bottle with everything except phosphates. Now I add phosphates once a week, in small amounts. While I didn't have to deal with much algae before, now it is so clean that the shrimps roll out the banners "feed us!".

I still think absolute levels of nutrients are not too important... what is important, is that plants have all of them available (or at least some of it stored in tissues). This is Liebigs law of the minimum. In other words, it doesn't matter if we have 5 or 10 or 20 ppm of NO3, as long as there is some.

Sorry to hear about the shrimps... I guess buying them after observing them a few days at the LFS has its advantages.


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## rrguymon

Let me start by saying I am not an expert. That being said, I do not think it is po4. I add lots and do not have algae. I think you are way short on micros. You are adding less in a full week in your tank than I add in 1 dose in my 50 gallon. I am also pumping in as much light as you. 2wp for 3hours, 4wpg 3 hours, and 2 wpg for 3 hours. 9 hours of total light. 

At one time I had an algae growing that responded to dosing flourish or CSM+B. (not the same as you have mine was a fuzzy stuff). I added a few mill of flourish and the algae would explode. I was sure eliminating micros would help. It did not. I also had some contaminated eco at the time. I could not even measure PO4 it was off the scale. I changed the eco - same problem it was not the PO4 from the eco. The fix was adding more micros and getting all the ferts to include CO2 in balance.

I am glad to hear you are really going to try EI. I think it will fix your tank if your stick with it for a few weeks. I am thinking you will not really stick with it though. You obviously like to manage and control the tank and parameters. EI is more of hands off no micro managing (pun intended haha) method. I suspect you will be tweaking Craig's dosing recipe after three days. HAHA.

I hope you do beat the algae one way or another. You have put tons and tons of work and effort into it. I is a great looking tank.

Rick.


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## scolley

Fish Newb said:


> as for ur "guessing game" i would try and stop. its a human thing to guess before. and then when ur checking it. if its say a color thing or something, you will always think its a bit closer to what you guessed. so i would try not to do it. but ahh you know what your doing so its ur call.


I know about that tendency of human nature, and that I do it, AND that I have color vision problems (not color blind, let's just say color challenged). So when ever I'm not certain of what I'm looking at, or if it is an particularly important reading (like the 25 ppm NO3 last nite) I let my wife read the chart, and I take her word for it.

And thanks for the feedback.



Wasserpest said:


> I didn't mention it earlier because of the common "PO4 has nothing to do with algae" thing.


Good point!

I suspect there is a bit of confusion over that point in our community, and there could be some similar confusion around my last post...

I'm not claiming phosphates were my root cause for this algae. I was using tried and true phosphate levels. I'm just claiming that I know what it's eating, so I know how to kill it. The live stuff anyway - not the spores.

I think there could be the same kind of duality in "PO4 has nothing to do with algae" thinking. It may have nothing to do with root cause. But in many places it has a world to to with what is keeping it growing.




Wasserpest said:


> I still think absolute levels of nutrients are not too important... what is important, is that plants have all of them available (or at least some of it stored in tissues). This is Liebigs law of the minimum. In other words, it doesn't matter if we have 5 or 10 or 20 ppm of NO3, as long as there is some.


That sounds good. And as a non-scientist I'd be ready to swallow that hook, line and sinker. But I can put you in touch with some pretty informed people in this community that have apparently solid reason to believe that is not always true, at least with every nutrient. Something about boundary layers or osmotic pressure, or some other thing I never really understood. Or so they tell me.

But I do look forward to our understanding improving in this space. Things like this should not be the subject of conjecture ideally. They would be proven fact. But until then - thanks for the input!

And yeah, after pulling 12 dead shrimp out of the tank today (how many did I miss?) those amanos were more expensive than I thought!



rrguymon said:


> You obviously like to manage and control the tank and parameters. EI is more of hands off no micro managaing (pun intented haha) method. I supsect you will be tweaking Craigs dosing recipe after three days. HAHA...


You hit the bulls-eye there Rick. So true. Though I am going to try it - but only to see if it is a way to kill this algae as advertised.

But I think you are missing the point about the phosphates. I'm not claiming phosphates caused the algae. Root cause has yet to be determined. But IMO phosphates are absolutely feeding the algae - and provide one possible path to killing it. IE and Sticky levels may be another. We will soon see. Thanks for the well wishes!

BTW - Your micro experience has been expressed to me by multiple people - same experience as yours. So there must be something to it.


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## uncskainch

Seems like the phosphate thing is a logical conclusion -- the Phosban and no phosphate dosing for a few days ought to let you see if that's making a difference. Then if you start back dosing with a relatively clean slate, maybe it'll stay at bay. I look forward to seeing how this works out!

And yeah, I love a good science puzzle -- you know I'll read along with all of this kind of stuff you want to post!


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## BlueRam

If we are in in the "get your bets in now" phase may I introduce another common phrase to the fray:

"(Almost) Nothing good in planted tanks happens quickly" <??>

I know that the algae is bad and you are forced to do the daily dig but take a look at your 20. How often do you put your hands in that water?

Where possible, make one change at a time too...
Looking forward to post 1000!


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## mecgeorgeneo

ive been following this thread for a while and i just wanted to say that i'm glad you figured out whats going on with ur tank and i hope you kick that algaes butt! haha.


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## Alight

I almost hate to jinx the idea, but I've almost been there, and done that. I took phosphates down to unmeasurable levels, and nitrates down to 3 or under in my thread and hair algae plagued tank. The algae literally exploded in growth. I tried no micros under this condition, no change--high micros, no change (still tons of algae in both cases).

Now, mind you, I didn't try high nitrates and no phosphates, and I didn't scavenge every last bit of phosphates out with phosban or other methods, so it may still work for you. 

I still have no answers, so I can't even begin to give you advice on what might work. I hope the consistently high CO2 and EI works for you. If it does, there still may be hope for me. 

Out of curiosity, why do you have to take out the CO2 controller to have CO2 high 24/7?


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## scolley

Alight said:


> Out of curiosity, why do you have to take out the CO2 controller to have CO2 high 24/7?


Thanks for sharing your experience. All I can say is my mileage may vary...

As to the CO2, you don't have to take out the controller. The only reason why I am doing it is because there have been so many discussions about my CO2, that and the latent distrust of controllers out there, that I'm sick of if being a question. Very soon - before I start the EI, I'll be able to point to my CO2 and say - OK, it's rock solid during the day - with none of the small (0.2) swings that a controller imposes. If EI does not work, I'm eliminating the controller (and CO2 in general) as an excuse as to why it did not work.


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## Bert H

Well Steve, I hope it works out. But I must say I am skeptical. 

FWIW, here's my tank params: kh 9-10; gh12-13 (mostly Ca); CO2 30+ runs 24/7; nitrates 15-20; phosphates 3-4. I dose 5ppm of NO3 twice a week; 1-2ppm PO4 twice a week; 1 tsp Mg twice a week; 1/2tsp of K once a week; 3ml Flourish 5 days a week; 2ml Flourish iron 5days a week; large well fed fish load. 50% weekly water changes. Above is done to 2 - 50 gal tanks, one with 110W lighting, the other with 126W lighting. Except for a little gs/gd on the newer tank, algae is not a problem. (Knocks on wood) I do have two ottos, two sae's and a bunch of cherries.

I guess it well could be that since the algae is cranking, the phosphates are keeping its engines running, so to speak. And control could indeed come from dropping the phosphates. But there's also the issues of folks where their phosphates bottom out and algae blooms. 

As has been pointed out, EI is indeed a more 'balanced' approach in the sense that you always have excess of everything the plants need. So assuming they are growing healthily, they will never lack for anything. Is it possible that with your dosing pumps, etc, you are walking too fine a line with too much variability? I am a firm believer that one of the keys to an algae free system is stability. 

My 2 cents worth, man. Hang in there and I hope this works.


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## Curare

I'm really starting to wonder whether dropping your photoperiod isn't having an effect too Steve.

I've got high light levels in my 50 and they're on long (some would say excessively long)timers. roughly 11 hours of full photoperiod. I dose dry KNO3 and KP04, but I've stopped measuring for it, I use the plants as the guide. 

If I'm not seeing good growth and pearling, I want to know why. As any number of things can be a limiting factor of growth, I just play around a little and try and fill that limiting factor. This has me chasing my tail sometimes, doing the KN03 KP04 micros, fe CO2 round robin, but I don't mind so much.

I feel that you're pretty right, with PO being a really good way of resetting your tank so to speak, it's helping the algae go beserk, but there's some other limiting factor thats stopping your plants numming all those ferts, and beating the algae to the punchline.


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## bushie

*theory*

g`day scolley,
a theory for ya.
when we have algal blooms in our rivers they say it`s from excess phosphates washed in from over fertilizing on farms, residential lawns etc. with the first rains.
so it has just been taken as gospel that that is the cause.
yet when I lived in the tropics in the middle of nowheresville the same thing happened and there is no farms or resedential lawns etc.
reading this got me thinking, could it be a change in temperature.
I don`t know if any one has brought this up previously.
but rain run off into rivers in a medeteranian type climate would warm up as it ran over rocks etc.
in a tropical climate it would cool down an already 30c water temp.
bringing the algae to it`s preferred temp range.
have you thought about adjusting temp up or down for a few days to try to push the algae out of it`s comfort zone.
I`m no expert on the subjuct but it is just a theory.
good luck with whichever way you choose to go.
BUSHIE


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## awrieger

Interesting theory, Bushie. Unfortunately my experience of transferring some val with thread algae on it into a colder temperature goldfish tank was that it kept growing, except more compact and clumpier strings. Like thick long wool threads as opposed to the fluffy cotton-ball look it has in warmer water. So all the temp change did was alter its growth pattern. Makes it much easier to remove physically though...

Steve, I just read on a Koi site that they use salt at a rate of one quarter of one percent (0.25% = 2.5 parts per trillion) to control thread/string algae in koi ponds. That's actually beneficial for goldfish which have an internal salt conc. of 1% so it helps their osmoregulation so they save energy, but I don't know how it would affect tropicals. 

Personally though, I'd suggest tearing the whole thing down and starting again. You've totally lost that beach path look you wanted originally, and you've said you're not getting any joy out of it. It's just a never-ending battle and I think you're just fighting for pride and principle now. The algae don't care about that! So overhaul it completely and re-do it from scratch. It will be fun for you too planning your new design! Just dip each new plant in a bleach solution before putting into the tank - go preventative rather than curative. 

Come over to the dark side, like I did. Give up! Throw in the towel! Tear all those plants out! You'll feel much better! [Is there a devil temptation icon I can add here? No? A wink will have to do..]


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## bushie

*hot and cold*

was checking some info about temp effects on various algae and was suprised to find some uni studies done on the issue and suprise suprise, heat not cold seemed to have an effect.
but as I say "just a theory".

as far as ferts go scolley maybe check this 

http://www.perthcichlid.com/pcs/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4077

someone over this way did the overdose and documented it.
different algae but maybe worth a read.


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## bushie

*agreement*

having said that I agree with awrieger.
strip it down and have some fun rebiulding.
youve done your bit for science.
and after all we are all in this for enjoyment.
enough ripping your hair out.:icon_wink


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## Curare

Bushie, you're talking about the monster BGA blooms that we get in the Swan and Canning, then everyone blames superphosphate in the water, simply becuase there isn't that much that can absorb that amount of phosphate in the water column. and more to the point, when these blooms um, bloom, I'd put my money on there being an imbalance between phospahtes, nitrates, oxygenation and bioload,in western australias river systems.

If we maybe hooked up a giant co2 system to the river, and got more plants it might get rid of the problem. 

As to Claudophora it's a different ball park. I'm waging my own secret war with my nano, and having the same problems, as there aren't any biological clean up crew apart from a few ramshorn snails. 

I'm winning slowly, but I'm not sure why:S


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## bushie

*bloomin algae*

curare,

I agree there are probably several factor that contribute to the algal blooms.

I would just like to know if anyone has ever tried to push it out of it`s comfort zone with temp changes and if so what are the results?

I`ve looked around on the web and have come up with very little except one study done in a lab which seemed to show that it does have an effect.

maybe this should be looked into!
never overlook that which could be easy.

but hey I`m just a novice.:icon_wink


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## Curare

I think the temp amy have one contributing factor,

As water gets warmer it's ability to absorb oxygen dimishes, and in low oxygenated water, BGA goes mental. Thats why it seems to favour really stagnant warm pools which remind me of something else (yeee, what I'm thinkng of looks like flat beer! I don't know which is worse)And as I've found, problems with BGA can sometimes be cured simply with an air stone tossed into the tank. 

(Also the use of an airstone powered protein skimmer on my gf's nano reef has all but killed the BGA in that tank)

I've built my nano with a setup that I hoped would remove big temprature swings during the day, with an external glass cannister filter. I thought that the high temps in the tank from the lights, and lows during the night were either conducive to more algae or stressing the plants.

I'm still flighting Clado in that tank, so I've pretty much ruled out temperature for now.


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## bushie

*temptalk*

still in agreement and these things are reasonably common knowledge.
all I`m saying is that "most" fish and plants can handle a swing in temp of 
2-3c for 2 or 3 days.
so maybe 2-3c can shut down an algal bloom, maybe!
worth a try!


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## Betowess

Wow, this is an interesting mystery. Just a thought here. Since there are probably a near infinite number of varieties of water parameters (some which we undoubtably don't know) in different locales and tanks, I'm fairly sure there is no one cure. Meaning, like EI, its an estimate and you have to find what works for your water's parms, or for your tank. There is no panacea or silver bullet ... everyone's tank is "unique". I personally vote for increasing the micros and medium light and a total fast on the macros NO3 and PO4, except for potassium.


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## A Hill

scolley said:


> I know about that tendency of human nature, and that I do it, AND that I have color vision problems (not color blind, let's just say color challenged). So when ever I'm not certain of what I'm looking at, or if it is an particularly important reading (like the 25 ppm NO3 last nite) I let my wife read the chart, and I take her word for it.
> 
> And thanks for the feedback.


yeah i know a few people who are color challenged. its pretty funny sometimes:hihi: ! but then if you ask your wife i hope she doesnt just go yeaah that looks right. with that waht youve said i personally if where in that perdicament would send out my water to be tested maybe every 3 or 4 months.more or less depending on how the tanks going just as a seat belt type of thing.

good luck is about all i can offer you now... because ferts are just not my thing

-=- fish newb -=-


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## Alight

I will warn against a fast of macros if you have macranda. I nearly killed my R. Macranda when my NO3 was 2 and PO4 nonexistent for a week. Other plants didn't like it either, but then, again, my tank is 4.3-4.5 watts/gallon so that that may have been another factor combined with the low ferts. 

This death doesn't show up right away, and takes several days to get taken care of once you put the ferts back.


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## Marc

Steve- I'm considering getting a tek fixture just like yours. Do you think they are bright enough to be hung 12-15" up from the tank?


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## scolley

*Progress Update*
Well miracle of miracles. All my new growth has almost no algae growing on it. Now the key word is _almost_. The growth rate of the algae has dropped to less than 5% of what it was last week. That is a spectacular and radical change. Quite, quite quite noticeable.

So what's difference?
1) I shut off micros two days ago (my bets are high on that being a factor)
2) I shut off macros two days ago (my bets are high on that being a factor)
3) I put in a bunch of amanos two days ago (I _know _that is not it - too few amanos, too much algae)
4) I put in 4 sailfin mollies two days ago (same thing as the amanos - that's not it)
5) I reduced the light to 2 bulbs only, all day (could be important)
6) I have done daily 50% water changes the last two days (???)
7) I have not done my usual post water change KH boost with baking soda, and GH boost with epsom salts. So GH and KH are both around 3, where I usually boost them both up to about 5. (???)
8) I put a bag of Phosban in a filter that I need to take out. I know I said that I wasn't going to do the Phosphate elimination routine yet. I'm not. But my tap water has 8-12 ppm of phosphates in it, so I knew I was giving the tank a daily boost of phosphates with the water changes, and I could delay on popping the top on the filter to get the Phosban out. A test today confirmed my phosphates are in the low teens today any way. (I don't think this is it.)
9) I put a needle valve on the CO2 to get going with the 24x7 CO2. But my pH has been in the 6.7 space, not the 6.4 or 6.3 that I usually keep it at. Plus my KH is lower, so I've definately got lots less CO2 (I assume that is not it)​So I'm gonna have to watch and wait on this. I'm not switching to EI yet, ,as the tank appears to be clearing itself up. That could cause an unfair victory attribution, and we don't learn anything from that. This is definately a watch, wait, and observe situation before trying EI.



*Bert *- _"Is it possible that with your dosing pumps, etc, you are walking too fine a line with too much variability?"_
What? The tank gets dosed daily. How can that be unstable? In fact, it's a bit more than twice as stable as the typical 3X weekly dosing most people here do.

_"But there's also the issues of folks where their phosphates bottom out and algae blooms."_
Absolutely. But just because some algae blooms when that happens does not necessarily have any bearing at all on what _this_ algae is living off of.



*Curare *- _"I'm really starting to wonder whether dropping your photo-period isn't having an effect too Steve."_
I didn't reduce the photo-period. I reduced the "noon" time light level. So rather than a middle number of hours being 4 bulbs, with the start and end of the day at 2 bulb, I just run 2 bulbs all the time now.



*bushie *- _"reading this got me thinking, could it be a change in temperature"_
Could be sure. But I'm through chasing could be's. I'm either winning soon because someone knows how to kill this, or I'm scrubbing the tank.
Thanks for suggesting though. I've just lost my patience for _maybes_.



*awrieger *- "_Steve, I just read on a Koi site that they use salt at a rate of one quarter of one percent (0.25% = 2.5 parts per trillion) to control thread/string algae in koi ponds."_
Another good idea. Thanks. But my reply to bushie applies here too I'm afraid. Thanks. I'm just through with trying stuff. 

_"Come over to the dark side, like I did. Give up! Throw in the towel! Tear all those plants out! You'll feel much better!"_
Ooooohhhh! You are the bad influence! You don't need a devil icon for that. I'm inches away from the path every time I see the tank. Inches. You too bushie!



*Curare *- _"you're talking about the monster BGA blooms"._
Thanks pal. As you well understand, _my _dark tuffy nemesis is something different.:icon_wink 



*Betowess *-_ "I personally vote for increasing the micros and medium light and a total fast on the macros NO3 and PO4, except for potassium."_
Thanks Bob. But this also qualifies as a _could be_. 



*Fish Newb* - _"i personally if where in that perdicament would send out my water to be tested maybe every 3 or 4 months"._
I should have never said anything about that. I'm trying to be totally honest with my information and I disclosed too much. Now every time I quote a test someone's gonna go "Yeah, but we all know he's color blind." Well I'm not. Color vision, like so many things about people, varies widely across populations. I happen to have a firm handle on mine because I went through undergraduate pilot training with the USAF. Got my "training wings" too. That's a long story for another time. But my point is they let me take multi-million dollar jets off into the wild blue yonder. And they did that after they tested every possible thing that could be tested about my eyes, including color vision (amazing color vision tests actually - puts those charts to shame).

So let's set the record straight. My color vision is not perfect. Neither is it for most of the people reading this right now. Especially the guys. The difference between us is that I know it, and most of the people with minor color deficiencies do not. My color vision is still good. Good enough to qualify as a pilot for the Air Force, and that's not too bad.



*Alight *- _"I will warn against a fast of macros if you have macranda."_
Thanks for the warning. No Rotala of any form in this tank.



*Marc *- _"Steve- I'm considering getting a tek fixture just like yours. Do you think they are bright enough to be hung 12-15" up from the tank?"_
:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: Look at the 75g tank in my sig buddy! I am not the guy to ask that question of! It's a cool light to be sure. Ask Betowess. He'll know. And also be sure to ask him what kind of bulbs to get.:icon_wink 




*In Summary*
The only _could be_ that I am considering is zero phosphates, zero micros. I'm personally convinced (and yes possibly wrong) that this would kill all the live algae. But first I'm planning on giving EI/Sticky Levels a whirl. That is after I watch a little while to see if the current course is going to correct things for me. This improvement is radical.


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## Betowess

:thumbsup: Glad you're seeing good results. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It sure is a good feeling when you finally lick an old adversary. Just saw that wink on Marc's reply. LOL . Maybe you could sell him some Plantas, make him an offer he can't refuse.:hihi: :redface:


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## Bert H

> But my tap water has 8-12 ppm of phosphates in it


 Wow! :eek5: OK, you could talk me into laying the blame on phosphates. 

In regards to the dosing pumps, I see what you mean. I guess I was thinking that the pumps would come on when the levels got low, whereas with EI you never let anything get 'low'.

But,hey, bottom line is the bottom line. I'm glad to hear you're getting some positive results.


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## Curare

Mate, I agree with Bert, if it's working, ask not questions about how but be pleased it is

Glad to hear that things are slowly abating. and that you're having a win

Stripping tanks is never fun, and I'm so much of a lazy bones that I'd do anything to not have to do it. I've had the same tank running without ever stripping it down for 2 or 3 years.


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## Ktulu_JL

I wanted to add a bit to that discussion about the local water-ways developing BGA blooms during certain times of the year. It happens around me, here in Wisconsin. The algae kicks off a few degrees colder than the massive plant growth in the late sprint/early summer, and then in fall the same when, when plant grown slows. So, it gets an early start, and then a late boost as well.

*From my Wisconsin DNR website:*
_Blue-green algae - also known as Cyanobacteria - are common in rivers, lakes, and ponds throughout Wisconsin. These algae can form "blooms" that may appear as scum layers or mats in the summer months when there are high nutrient (phosphorous) levels or other favorable environmental conditions. These blooms may appear as scum layers or large floating mats and often have a bluish-green color and an unpleasant odor.

*Some species of blue-green algae naturally produce toxic substances.* Humans and animals may experience illness or other health effects if there is skin contact with algal toxins or large amounts of the algae are ingested while toxins are being produced.

Scientists who study water quality don't have any sampling tools to accurately predict when algal toxins may be present. Due to this uncertainty, common sense is necessary if algal blooms are present._

Also, if you feel like looking up the bgafaq.pdf lower on the page, it explains the Endotoxins, Hepatoxoxins, and Neurotoxins that certain BGA species produce.

WDNR Website Link

BGAfaq.pdf

Steve, I am not saying that your BGA is emitting toxic substances that is retarding YOUR plant growth. But, I figured I'd add some interesting info to your already massive thread  What the heck, eh?

P.S. - I check this thread every day sitting on pins and needles waiting for the next development. Keep up the great postings!!


----------



## bushie

*bga???*

I was never stating it was bga, just thought someone should test the theory of temp.
it just sounds like it`s never been tested.


----------



## bushie

*1000*

and I wanted to be no. 1000.:hihi:


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## uncskainch

Congratulations on the new growth showing dramatically less algae. I can't wait to see if that's still the case a few days in to the new regime. I'll have my fingers crossed. It seems reasonable to me that starving the algae on phosphates and micros may kill back the live stuff, and then you'll have a chance to start fresh, giving the plants what they need with EI and letting the Amanos clean up any stray algae bits before they get the chance to take hold seriously.

And what do I win if this is post #1000? 

EDIT: Darn. Bushie beat me to the punch.


----------



## esarkipato

Dunno if I posted here yet steve, but I do really enjoy the thread as well. Had a similar outbreak in my 29g low tech tank, and pretty much just had to wait it out. No co2 dosing, 1.5 wpg, very little if any macro/micros. This just might be a clue to why your current regimens are helping.

Also, do you really think you can minimize the impact of 30+ amanos and a coupla mollies? Seems to me that they would likely make a pretty big impact in the span of 2-3 days?

Keep up the good work, and don't listen to *awrieger*. NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!! FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!!! (hopefully the algae's death . . . :hihi: )


----------



## scolley

Ktulu_JL said:


> Steve, I am not saying that your BGA is emitting toxic substances that is retarding YOUR plant growth. But, I figured I'd add some interesting info to your already massive thread  What the heck, eh?


Yeah, but it is a point well made. You've all seen the numbers. This tank should have explosive growth, rather than the moderate (if healthy) growth it's getting. I've assumed that every inch of the plants being covered in algae threads is responsible for that, but inhibiting chemical warfare is another possible reason.




bushie said:


> and I wanted to be no. 1000.


Looks like you got it. Not sure if anyone else here at PT has that distinction. Anybody know?




uncskainch said:


> I can't wait to see if that's still the case a few days in to the new regime. I'll have my fingers crossed.


That's the problem! Technically this is a new regimen, but it was not intended that way. My tank was juiced to the gills with Potassium, trying out the mix that worked for Bill. So I figured a few daily water changes would help cut that concentration down to reasonable levels (especially since my tap is only 3 PPM Potassium). And I shut off the micro/micros. And changed the CO2 to "manual", which actually reduced the CO2. Oh, yeah, the reduced lights, as per Craigs recommendation (though frankly I can make a strong argument that the light reduction is not responsible for this - in fact I can prove it.)

All this was just to "reset" the tank in preparation for EI.

I didn't mean for this to be a new regimen. But since the short term results have been so dramatic, I feel like I have to wait it out a bit and see what happens.




esarkipato said:


> Also, do you really think you can minimize the impact of 30+ amanos and a coupla mollies? Seems to me that they would likely make a pretty big impact in the span of 2-3 days?


You are going to have to take my word for that I'm afraid. But I am ABSOLUTELY right on this one.

How do I know?
1) I clean my lily pipes daily to gage growth. Unless a molly is sucking algae off every inch of that glass, and swimming INTO the lily pipe to clean out the inside, the lack of algae growing on those pipes must be caused by something else.
2) My glass is crystal clean - first day in who knows how long. Also, same question, do we really believe they are scraping new little stuff off the entire surface of the glass when there is nice long threads everywhere to be eaten?
3) Body mass. How many times their body mass can an amano or molly eat in 1 day? 1/10th? 1/4? 1/2? I can scrape 10 times the mass of those animals off the plant leaves.
4) The new growth is almost algae free. So am I to believe that the new leaf tips are the preferred source of algae for these animals - they scour that when there is loads and load of new (and old) algae growth everywhere else? And that they were so diligent that they cleaned EVERY SINGLE new leaf tip I could find. I don't think so.

The new fauna are making a small dent. And might be able to keep this under control if the out-of-control growth abates. But they are not responsible for the almost zero growth I am seeing now.


----------



## uncskainch

You know, I was thinking the same thing as Ernie about the Amanos and the mollies. Any thread or brushy algae in my tank gets nibbled at by my swordtails all day long and they are not as well known for eating that stuff as their mollie cousins. 

And when I had the CO2-yeast-mix in my tank and got grunge all over the substrate and plants, I dumped in about 30 ghost shrimp and hoped for the best. I'd been doing regular water changes, wiping the gunk off the glass, etc. for over a week, but within 3 days of the ghost shrimp addition, the stuff was making a DRAMATIC retreat. So while it's hard to say "Yes, they did the job" since I was doing other stuff, too, I think they had a major impact -- a much bigger one than you would think just to watch them going about their business.

Whatever's doing the job, though, I'm glad that the algae seems to be in retreat at long last!

EDIT: Good points above about why it's not primarily the mollies and Amanos -- obviously cross-posted!


----------



## scolley

EDIT: - _Sorry Kathy, in my post below I did not see that your prior response was due to cross posting! So my response below does not apply to your last post! Sorry. But I'm gonna leave it anyway, only because it further strengthens my positon on the animals making the difference, and I really don't want to talk about that any more. I'm kinda firm on my conclusions in this space._

Kathy, I'm sorry for being stubborn on this point, but it is not the new fauna.

My glass lily pipes fill with fresh algae every day. Now they are not. Am I to believe that the animals are swimming into that 200 gph flow to nibble algae off the insides of the glass? That's like swimming into a small garden hose. I don't think anyone would presume this.

So if we accept that the inside of my lily pipes are staying clean by some new mechanism, causing a substantial reduction in new algae growth, are we to presume that this effect is limited to the lily pipes? That the change everywhere else is due to new fauna?

I don't think so. I believe the only reasonable assumption is that what ever is having a huge impact on the growth rate within my lily pipes is also having a huge impact on the rest of the tank. Anything the new fauna are doing is in addition to this already huge impact.

All opinions welcome and appropriate here, and I appreciate the feedback. But Steve will not be budging on this point. I'm the only one that can see every single new leaf tip look like it's been scoured clean. I'm the only one that can see the mollies always going for the easy meal, the long, days old threads flowing in the current, and nothing else. And I'm the only one that knows how much algae grows on the insides of those lilies every day, that is not growing there now. So I've got a point of view real close to the subject matter that no one else has access to. Sorry. It's not the animals.


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## uncskainch

Hi Steve -- I wasn't trying to argue -- when I started my post about the shrimp and mollies, you hadn't yet posted your info about the lily pipes. I think you're absolutely right that something going on with the water/light/CO2 is keeping new stuff from growing and it seems perfectly logical that that's what's making the huge difference in the clean glass, the new growth, etc. I just wanted to chime in that I saw big differences with ghost shrimp and see mollie-cousins eating a lot of algae, so I wouldn't be surprised if your "worker bees" are doing a good job for you, even if they can't take credit for the big turn-around. And they may wind up being helpful in keeping the tank algae-free by clearing out little bits here and there over time once the big problem is under control and you're moving forward again.


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## scolley

uncskainch said:


> Hi Steve -- I wasn't trying to argue -- when I started my post about the shrimp and mollies, you hadn't yet posted your info about the lily pipes. I think you're absolutely right that something going on with the water/light/CO2 is keeping new stuff from growing and it seems perfectly logical that that's what's making the huge difference in the clean glass, the new growth, etc. I just wanted to chime in that I saw big differences with ghost shrimp and see mollie-cousins eating a lot of algae, so I wouldn't be surprised if your "worker bees" are doing a good job for you, even if they can't take credit for the big turn-around. And they may wind up being helpful in keeping the tank algae-free by clearing out little bits here and there over time once the big problem is under control and you're moving forward again.


Understood! Thanks Kathy!

And I'm in full agreement about a prior point that you made... that they might not be what it takes to beat this (they are not!) but they might be sufficient to keep it under control (and hopefully invisible) if I can get ahead of the beast. Completely agreed - that is why I got them.

Thanks.


----------



## Betowess

I am wondering if the minimal, er, fasting approach to macros and micros is the real deal to eliminate this pest, if starting an EI type of dosing regimen might not reinvigorate the thread algae? What if you considered doing something that Wasserpest wrote about in his 36 corner thread, where he slowly started increasing doses one at a time to see how his plants responded, rather than pushing all the doses in at once? That way one could tell which nutrient was beneficial and which was in excess.


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## Ktulu_JL

Sorry for this post. This is offtopic either way.


----------



## scolley

*Observation Continues*

*UPDATE*
Too busy to do my 3rd water change yesterday - I always planned on it taking three to "reset" my tank in preparation for EI.

The algae continues to grow, but at a massively diminished rate. So I'll do my water change today, and continue my watch and wait. I'm not doing anything else but the water change.

Did a water test to understand what these conditions are the moment, conditions that are part of these favorable changes:

pH 6.7
GH 2.5
KH 4
KNO3 11
PO4 - 1.2
K - 20-25

The K and N remain a bit up there because there is a lot of it in my tap water. The K is a calculation, not a test result, and still up there because it's taking a few water changes go bring it down from my prior 90 ppm pinnacle.

The pH needs to come down more. I'm shifting off the SMS 122 onto needle valve regulation, I'm taking the "go slow" approach to get it set right. I had a needle valve sitting on the shelf for this purpose (I've been planning on dumping the SMS 122 for a while - keeping it only to prevent dumps - but otherwise letting the needle valve do the work). But my new needle valve turns out to be a piece of crap, and I'm using the one the came on my regulator instead - not the best - and takes a while to get adjusted right.

Other than the pH, and the fact that I might want to boost my GH a hair, the water is at a pretty good place. The levels aren't far off from what I kept my 20g at under high light.


*CONSIDERING THE "ANIMAL"*
*Ktulu_JL *- your assertion that this should be treated as an animal, as single organism is one that I have a lot of trouble with. Though the implications are interesting.

I am NOT going to get into a "true nature of algae" discussion here because unless that question has to be answered to fix my problem, I consider that off topic, and appropriate for another thread.

But I know your suggestion is in the spirit of helping. But I don't see any actions I should be taking from them. Now there is a predator (or two) in there, and hopefully one animal will kill the other one. Cool. Thanks.


*A NEWLY OBSERVED PROBLEM WITH THIS ALGAE*
I'm becoming concerned that my long term plan may be no good against this algae. All along I've held that light is not a major factor with this stuff, and that even in reduced light it thrives. This is evidenced by that fact that not only are the tops of every leaf covered with tiny threads, so are the undersides (which may be inhibiting plant growth BTW).

In my observations of the mollies and amanos, everybody gets lunch off the tops of the leaves. I've yet to see any one of these animals eat from the undersides. Maybe they will when there is nothing on the top. Or maybe it's too hard to get to.

If they don't (won't) eat from the undersides, my reason for getting them is worthless. It won't do me any good to have a tank that looks ok on the surface, but never thrives because of the growth inhibition caused by unseen algae covering the undersides of leaves. I won't do it - I'll scrub the tank first.

More watch and wait.:icon_frow 


*BOB* - I'm not interested in adding 1 macro/micro at a time in bringing things back up. Anything could be the limiting factor, then you add it and it stops being limiting. Now something else is limiting instead. You could go in circles like that for years until you got the "perfect" balance of nutrients. That is until something small changed - like you neglected a regular trim, and your balance of plants shifted and their needs shifted slightly too. Then you are back on the circle of finding the limiting nutrient.

Nope. I'd rather just start providing "enough" of everything. Thanks.


----------



## unirdna

[much needed humor added]

You know, Steve. I'm going to go ahead and cancel that long-standing order of miniriccia :hihi:. I don't want that algae anywhere near my tanks. I've learned my lessons from watching "Aliens".


----------



## scolley

I've still got the riccia Ted.:hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

But you know what happens folks... when you aren't careful who you swap flora with.:icon_wink


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## dschmeh

ive been following this thread for a while do you have a current pic of the tank. just curious 
Dave


----------



## bushie

*photo album*

a photo would be appropriate considering this is a phot album thread.:hihi: 

then again we`ve got a wall painted green at our place.

seen one green wall, seen em all.:icon_lol: 

scolley, did you check that link on 984?

interested in your opinion.


----------



## scolley

dschmeh said:


> ive been following this thread for a while do you have a current pic of the tank. just curious
> Dave


A worthy and fair question! I'll get you one tomorrow Dave.

IMO the tank looks worse. But for interesting reasons... there is less algae, but with the reduced light, the stems are all getting rather leggy. So things look a bit less dense. I'll show you when I can snap a pic tomorrow.

*bushie *- sorry. yes I did check that link. thanks for sharing that, but I've been through all that. It's in this thread. And to make matter worse, just in case I did not give Excel a fair chance (I think I did though) you can read a bit more about my exploits with Excel in this thread. Look at the later posts...

_"a photo would be appropriate considering this is a phot album thread."_
Yeah, maybe this needs to be moved to the Algae forum. That's a mod decision. But for the record, my nose definately won't get out of shape if they decide to do that... On one hand this IS supposed to be a photo album. But on the other hand, I think the whole community has a great learning experience going on here. At some level, IMO, it would be wrong of me to say "Oh, we can't deal with those issues here - this is a photo album!"

Fact is, we started with some great photos IMO, and then things got really, really messed up. I think it's worth finishing the story so we can all lean.

When the algae is gone, or I scrub the tank (which ever!) I will stop posting to this thread - whether a mod requests it or not. The story will be over then, and it will be time to begin again somewhere else.


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## g8wayg8r

You've got some real cool critters in that tank. They have a nice home.


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## Wö£fëñxXx

scolley said:


> Fact is, we started with some great photos IMO, and then things got really, really messed up. I think it's worth finishing the story so we can all lean.


And you can finish with some great photo's, if you master the *Light*, *C02* and *Nutrient's*,

I really want to help you get this u n d e r c o n t r o l !:wink: 

What is happening here Steve, you have one hell of a light system, you are or have been pushing some intense ray's/craming the lumens down the tank's throat, while pinching on the nutrient's, that does not work as _*we*_ have seen.

If you are going to add only 1.299999ppm P04, 5.32777.9 ppm N03, and 2.56479999.9 ml trace :hihi: then run the light accordingly.--Turn it down/raise it above tank etc.

you can clear the tank up in just a few days or sooner, it's up to you, the plant's need a kick start, you keep stunting them with low nutrient's and high light:icon_twis 

I would really suggest you look into your C02 diffusion method also, reactor's are not the best route, seriouly! or turn down the light's aka, raising the fixture above the tank if need be.

This is what I would do, and it will work, regardless of what some cheap ass test kit says, the plant's are saying _Feed me Seymore_

1) Turn down the light for the moment, clean the tank prune what need's pruning, do a good 50~70% H20 change, one is all you need, it does not take 10 changes to reset the tank, just one.

2) Dose:

3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week

Blast the C02 for a couple hours, then ease into the light, run two bulbs, for the first two or three hours, then all the bulbs for about an hour, then back down again for two or three more hours, then blast it again.
Think about the plant's needs, not the amount of ppm you are adding to the tank. The algae love's it when you think that way.
The plant's don't care if you add this much, actually they will appreciate it by blessing you with some algae busting growth, they only care when you cut them short on food as you have seen, hint hint,
The real test is going to be your C02, you will need good diffusion, or turn down the light's indefinitely, and don't dose a thing cept KN03 in small amounts like you have been  some trace a couple times a month.
Adding more light?? add more nutients including C02 :icon_idea :icon_idea 

If you do decide to keep the light's on low, continue with alot of C02.

Can I get an Amen? or a hell [email protected]

Good luck buddy, we are pulling for you:biggrin:


----------



## dschmeh

Ktulu_JL said:


> I am going to chime into this thread with my own opinion just once. Whatever comments, this is my complete expertise. You don't see the real smarter people than me chime'ing in.
> 
> It seems like this thread treats algae as a differnent animal, but it is not. You always have to treat algae as an organism that is reproducing based off of mass per biotope, or parts per million in gallons.
> 
> The more parts per million, the more reproducing organisms you have making more babies of their species.
> 
> If you add enough of a predator of that species in the animal kingdom, it will decimate that other animal.
> 
> I added clues that certain types of algae will make itself toxic to other stuff in your local quarantined tank that is buffered from the natural world. This animal/plant will thrive.
> 
> Until recently, Steve doesn't want to add the mutual predator to his animal/plant outbreak to nip this in the bud, so it is now the dominant animal/organism.
> 
> Steve has tried to make a nice biotope, but has an invasive form of algae that is not native to your biotope. Add the "stuff" that can fix this, and then get rid of these fish back to your LFS. Mollies, Platys, and the SAE only eat fresh growth first. This is how people control their problems. These type of fish only eat new growth, and the old growth dies off because their new growth is eaten by these fish, where their whole job is to eat new growth.
> 
> Steve, you made a biotope, but the algae that you have is not native to your biotope. The fix you have, is going to "fix" this, but it is too late either way.
> 
> I am trying to be positive, because I am a positive person.



I dis-agree you dont have to add algae eaters to a tank to have a algae free tank. There are many tanks that have no fish or shrimp and have no algae.
Algae is caused by a imbalance of some sort. Adding predators will temporariarly solve the problem by covering it up once they are removed the agae will return if the problem is not solved. I think we have some sort of imbalance here but cant figure it out (it may be chemical or physical) it may be solved already but needs time to complete its cycle since steve stated its getting better.


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## scolley

*Pics*

Will provide a more details response later. For now, here's some pics.

You can see from the first ones, at a distance I don't want to puke every time I look at the tank.




















But from this close-up, you can see what I know I am going to see once I get close. So this tank, while improved, is far from out of the woods.











PS - Please ignore that pH probe wire draping over the top rear right. I have not put the new probe in-line yet. I'm waiting for its readings to stabilize. But _please _don't nag me about CO2 because the probe is unstable. The SMS 122 IS NOT controlling my CO2, a needle valve is.

PPS - In this pic (turned on the lights at nite to take the shots) you can see the two Otto's that have been in the tank forever. They too, are not true to the biotope. You may recall I put three of them in a long time ago to see if they would make a difference. One died, the other two have not made a dent, and I'm just too lazy to move them to another tank. They'll be each to catch one I get around to doing it.


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## Urkevitz

Looks like whatever you are doing is working, the algae problem looks minor compared to before.


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## scolley

*THIS IS NOT, AND HAS NOT BEEN, A HIGH LIGHT TANK*

In fact, it is a low light tank now.



Wö£fëñxXx said:


> What is happening here Steve, you have one hell of a light system, you are or have been pushing some intense ray's/craming the lumens down the tank's throat, while pinching on the nutrient's, that does not work as _*we*_ have seen.


Wrong.

I appreciate the intention to help, but your recommendation is based on a misunderstanding of the facts. I wish people would stop looking at the Tek and assume I'm toasting the plants. After I go to the trouble to explain why I know that I'm not toasting them, I'm gonna refuse to discuss light any more. So here goes...

I am not running but 2 bulbs now. In fact, beyond a brief 6 bulb excursion long, long ago, my light have never been run at more than 4 bulbs for a very few hours a day. All that has been documented here in painful detail.

THIS IS NOT HIGH LIGHT.

I've posted some quite rational numbers around that light (IMO) and I've yet to see a rational response to them (_Ammended - I have seen a few rational responses to the important posts on light, posts 926 and 568 - what I have not seen is any rational argument that I'm running high light based on the information clearly laid out on those informative posts_). So I'm gonna take a different tack to demonstrate this.

A while ago I was working out a method of measuring light with Betowess (and others! but Bob worked particularly hard on the idea), that I've gotten too busy to finish. It is imperfect, and still needs to be worked on, but is not without value IMO. To understand what I'm about to discuss you'll need to look at the thread dealing with it, particularly post 41.

I used this method today to measure the light in my 20g with 1 65w PC burning over it. Using a number of f-stops, all at ASA 100, the resulting auto-selected shutter speeds chosen by my camera yield a value of about 800 lux in that tank. This is using a CD, filling the spot metering brackets, with that CD at an angle to get the full impact of the overhead lights. Please note - this tank is algae free, and gets practically NO ferts outside of that which comes from my tap water. A squirt of Excel every few weeks, and a squirt of micros every few months. I run this as a low light tank. You will note on the chart in post 41, this level of illumination is firmly in the low light range for a tank.

When I do the same thing on the 75g, with two Tek T-5 bulbs burning, the results are slightly higher - about 900 lux. So for the last week I've been running basically a low light tank.

Now we all know, in the past I've pushed this to 4 bulbs for a few hours a day. What does that yield? Somewhere around 1400 to 1500 lux using the methods described above. Now the fact that this is not exactly double the 2 bulb reading demonstrates that this is an imperfect method. But we still have some great indicative information here.

What we know is that even when I was using 4 bulbs for a few hours a day, most of the day I was running effectively a low-light tank. And for those mid-day forays into higher light, I was still getting nowhere near what these plants normally see in nature. Not a high light tank.

*In Conclusion on the light topic*

1) IMO I'm running what is almost a low-light tank now.
2) I've never run this 75g a high light tank (except for one brief foray into 6 bulbs long ago).

I'll respond more later....


PS - These conslusions are not really founded on the validity of the table and methods of measuring light as found in the other thread. But are instead of value when the 75g's lux values are compared to the lux values found in my 25g, a tank being run quite sucessfully under as if it were a low light tank.

PPS - If you really want to do something really helpful, drop a CD (I use _Dark Side of the Moon_) in your tank, take are reading and post your results in that other thread. I really want to get back to that soon - it's got a lot of potential as a basis for mutual understanding of how much light we are all actually using, and getting some results from a number of people, with associated light prarameters, would be an intresting to read and ultimately a benefit to the community IMO.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Well, if it is a low light tank, don't you think you should stop dosing everything altogether? except a little KN03, you will break out with BGA if you bottom out, unless you already have BGA in the tank.

It will take a long time to get the tank algae free at that rate.

I also have several low light tanks, that run great, no dosing, no C02, no water changes, and most importantly, no algae, not visable anyway, I have growing in them, hairgrass, diandra, sword's crypt's, blyxa, lotus, l. repens, bacopa's, L. aromatica, and other odd-n-ends, and they all do pretty well.

My 55g low light, has three 30w tubes on it, once in awhile I will dose a small amount of macros and micros, then toss in a glass diffuser and pump some C02 in, gives the tank a nice thrust.

My point being if you want to get past the algae fast. give it a thrust.
I'll hush now:biggrin:


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## scolley

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Well, if it is a low light tank, don't you think you should stop dosing everything altogether? except a little KN03, you will break out with BGA if you bottom out, unless you already have BGA in the tank.
> 
> It will take a long time to get the tank algae free at that rate.


Thanks Craig. I just had to put the light question to bed... to much time wasted in that space.

My tap water has about 8 ppm Nitrates in it, so just water changes keep _some _ in the tank. That's probably a good bit of the reason why my unfertilized 20g has no algae to speak of.

But I do have to accept the fact that since I made a number of changes last week, my algae problem has improved radically. And I do want to give EI a shot, but I'm only going to give it a fair shot if I do. It is possible that the tank is on the road to self correction now, and switching to EI at this moment could be crediting a victory incorrectly, as victory was on the way anyway.

IMO though, victory is not right around the corner. Things are improved - but all visible algae growth has not yet ceased. Also, In cleaning the tank yesterday, some of the new growth was a bit less green than I would have liked to have seen, and a number of stems were mushy. So last week's conditions created a fert problem witht the plants. But I'm gonna stabilize the tank right were it is right now for a little while just to make sure the algae is not beating a full retreat. If it doesn't "self correct" soon, EI is next.

Thanks.

PS - I don't think I can call it a low light tank. But I do belive it is darn near that, and a world of light away for high-light.


----------



## Ktulu_JL

Steve, I removed my last post as offtopic, I am not sure if that is allowed on this forum or not.

I went back through your nice thread a few months and re-read everything. I feel for your remarks where you said that you might consider not doing more massive threads like this in the future, and where you can get frustrated with the same accusations about your lighting.

I am sorry for trying to steer your thread offtopic. Have you considered editing your first post, to make it a table of contents instead, where you can keep your own personal *stickies* type messages of your lighting, up to the day inhabitants, and your current dosing scheme? It seems like every few weeks, people bombard you with the same questions over and over again. Also, your posts seem to reflect that it might be getting hard sometimes to keep answering the same things more than once.

Keep up the great posting, and very much luck to you and your tank!!!


----------



## scolley

Ktulu_JL said:


> Steve, I removed my last post as offtopic, I am not sure if that is allowed on this forum or not.


It is allowed here. Thank you, that was a kind thing to do. But not necessary really.

It was an interesting post - I think the premise would make a useful thread. But I could see that it was a potential converstion that would pull things way off course, which BTW, is way of course itself from being a photo thread. But this will get shut down soon, one way or the other.

And yes indeed, I am certainly getting frusterated by having to hash over the same ground, over and over again. Sorry that it is so transparent. 

I'll think about an index. It's a lot of work. Maybe when this is over.


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## triple red

keep at it scolley......everyone here is pulling for you to beat this...roud:


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## alexandre

Hello Steve,

That’s a bit sad to hear you speaking that way. You always been positive and ready to fight and understand any problems. You also been very honest about the state of your tank. I mean by that you didn’t post picture after a 3 day black out saying “Look at my tank, dont it look great!”.
So anyway, I can’t push you to carry on this thread but I can ask you to, don’t take to long before opening a new one.

All the best.


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## gbhil

I've been keeping up with your saga. Haven't chimed in as I have no *answers*, only guesses, and didn't want to fuel the fires of speculation. (Now that I have chimed in, my guess - The Eco-Complete...everything else has been changed...). I'm giving my 2 cents now because you are showing signs of frustration.

Since you are not Amano, or own your own aquaria based business, this is supposed to be recreation. Enjoyable if you will. It's easy to see that it has ceased to be relaxing and has turned into a source of stress and frustration. It is for all of us when we face similar issues in our tank(s). Maybe it's time to turn the page.

You created your 'dream tank', and amassed the various equipment and gadgets to play with. You proceeded to recreate the bayoutope (pun intended :hihi: ) complete with the fish you've always wanted. You got very positive comments both here and from the judges over at AGA. You were enthusiastic and pleased with the tank (for the most part it seemed) at that point. *YOU WON*. You successfully did what you set out to do with very nice results. Any of us here would love to recreate what you accomplished with this tank. Answer yourself this - does what you have _now_ fulfill the goals you originally had with this tank, or are you still fighting these issues out of habit and stubbornness? 

Pull and salvage what plants you can. Toss the substrate. Run a tank full of bleach solution for a few days. Start again. You have an incredible pile of equipment at hand. Set up a high-light EI tank full of hygro or r. rotundifolia or any other speed grower and return to watching your tank while smiling for a few months. You're not giving up, you're moving on......

The above was meant with the best of intentions. I'm only trying to show support for the part of you that (I'm sure) is dying to get away from the 75 gallons of stress you have sitting in your living room.


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## scolley

*You guys are the best!*

Wow! I'm sorry if my misery is spreading! :icon_wink 

I'm not really miserable. I would be if this was not getting better, but it is!

In the last 48 hours there has been almost no new algae growth. Key word being, of course, almost. But this is still even more improvement.

*triple red* - Thanks for the encouragement.

*alexandre *- Sorry to bum you out. This is just getting old. But thanks for the well wishes also.

*gbhil* - Thanks for putting things in perspective. You are right IMO, in your indirect point which is "no shame in starting over now!" I agree fully. I do believe I've contributed a reasonable amount to the community, and if I want to scrub this sucker and start again, I should feel free to do it. But I don't.

This is some rather nasty algae. So I am concerned that my efforts to scrub the tank won't be successful, and it will come back. I've heard enough stories about algae doing that. So I want to lick this "naturally" if possible. I'd rather kill the algae, then slowly replace the tank with new plants that I want, as opposed to scour the tank, start again, and then risk finding this stuff creeping back.

Also I can't ignore the outstanding learning opportunity here. If this stuff does not go away pretty soon, I'll be switching to EI and Sticky Levels. I've gone on the record saying I think the recommended levels are excessive, and probably don't work for everyone. And I'm not going to give up testing or autodosing. But lots of people here strongly disagree with that. We'll this is a rare chance to test that. And it's a win/win. If I'm right, well... then I was right! And if I'm wrong, I get a clean and healthy tank!

Can't beat those options IMO. I gotta try.

However, I first have to wait this out a little while longer... see if it is going to "self correct". That's more important to me than trying EI. Because if it does, I can finally get on with the business of trying to create a beautiful tank - the whole reason why I'm putting up with all this.


Thank for the support folks.:wink:


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## gbhil

scolley said:


> Also I can't ignore the outstanding learning opportunity here. If this stuff does not go away pretty soon, I'll be switching to EI and Sticky Levels. I've gone on the record saying I think the recommended levels are excessive, and probably don't work for everyone. And I'm not going to give up testing or autodosing. But lots of people here strongly disagree with that. We'll this is a rare chance to test that. And it's a win/win. If I'm right, well... then I was right! And if I'm wrong, I get a clean and healthy tank!
> 
> Can't beat those options IMO. I gotta try.
> 
> However, I first have to wait this out a little while longer... see if it is going to "self correct". That's more important to me than trying EI. Because if it does, I can finally get on with the business of trying to create a beautiful tank - the whole reason why I'm putting up with all this.
> 
> 
> Thank for the support folks.:wink:


First off, I'll join you on record that EI is excessive, and does not work for all tanks. It's easily tweaked to be workable and the best lazy man's dosing system ever devised. With your auto dosing setup and a few weeks of testing to balance out the EI method and turn it into a workable 'scolley's EI method' you'll have the best of both worlds. When all is said and done I'm looking forward to seeing exactly what you _do_ come up with for fert dosing w/ a fully automated system.

Just keep the fact that you're conducting a layman's experiment ATM with your tank in mind. Hopefully that can ease your suffering a bit when you look into the tank and see the things that displease you. I don't know you from Adam, and there's a thousand miles between us, but I refuse to let you become a casualty to 'Aquarium-related Stress Burnout Syndrome'. Tenacity and the need for first hand knowledge is a good thing. Keeping it all in perspective is the hard part.

*Doctors orders -* (hey, technically I'm a doctor, so I can say it too :biggrin: )
Place the rubber ducky that appeared previously in this thread into your tank. Give yourself something to chuckle about each time you look into it. This should help offset the fact that the experimentation you need to do is being done in your dream tank rather than an old 20 long out in the garage.


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## Alight

Just to keep things off track (I'm having less luck than you, so far, Scolley--btw, my water conditions are now almost identical to yours, NO3-11, PO4-1.2, K-20, GH-5, kH 1.8-2, CO2-35-40, pH 6.2). I have no NO3 or PO4 in my tap water, at least--that must be a real pain). 

Anyway, I'd love to find some HC to try when (notice not if) I get this algae bloom under control. Where did you get yours? How fast does it spread?

Al Light


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## cbennett

scolley, i'm really glad you're starting to win the war with this algae. This is by far my favorite thread - while maybe not fun for you, it's definitely a learning experience for everyone else. Everytime I click on the thread wondering "ooh what's happened today!" So if nothing else, thank you for this thread. 

I'm absolutely not an expert at growing plants (although perhaps an expert at growing BBA), so take this with several grains of salt but it really seems to me that your substrate may be major factor here. Both the sand and possible the Eco you have in there would be adding silicates big-time which are known to cause hair algae, right? I realize changing out the substrate would just be a god-awful job and I can understand waiting until you've tried everything else. I realize you're starting to have success but I bring this up again because it kind of sounds like you're giving up on your biotope idea. I hope that when you get this algae beat (and you will), that it's not the type of solution that means you can't have a true biotope again. That just wouldn't be fun. Anyway, good luck! *Shakes fist at algae*


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## Ktulu_JL

Steve,

I completely 100% admire what your are doing here. Your big threads made me stop internet browsing, join and donate to planted tank. If I don't piss off too many people here too quick, I plan on staying here for many years into the future.

I wish I could stop over and help you bleach those plants and restart that tank. I posted a recent startup, but haven't update that thing since. I had drained that tank 5 full times in a three week span to get to the diatoms stage that I wanted it, with no BGA, BBA, or thread. This tank is almost stable now, and I can't wait to make a photo journal of it.

You took the other approach. You got the full internet exposure to your trials and tribulations. I do, LITHA, max micros, max N&K, then fix P, then adjust FE, and then it is stable. If anyone followed my progress, they would say that I am nuts in the head.

You are the one person that got me to stay here, to read up on your daily funny posts and the latest developments, and later join up.

Thanks much for your online writing!


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## scolley

*Updata and Thanks*

*PROGRESS REPORT*

Not much to report really. There was more algae on the lily pipe yesterday than for most days recently, as if things were going backward a bit. There are three conditions that could have affected this:

1) Sunday evening was Mothers Day, and being distracted, I did not clean the lilypipes. So what I was looking at yesterday was two days growth. (But even still, it was more than I expected for two days.)
2) I added some baking soda yesterday to bring my KH up from 2.5 to 3.5. Since I've started to let the needle valve control CO2 rate last week, rather than the SMS 122, I've been giving the system time to stabilize on a "natural" level. With my KH so low, it needs a boost to get the CO2 ppm up. Either way though, this was a change that should be noted.
3) On Sunday afternoon I went in the room and saw that 4 bulbs were burning on the Tek - not the 2 that should have been. I don't know now long it was like that, but I switched it back to 2 immediately. I also don't know how it happened. The lights are controlled by X10 modules, that can do funny things sometimes (no I don't have the autodosers on X10 modules!), but I could have bumped the toggle switches in the stand that also control the lights, but I don't this so. It was weird, and unexplained, and it did not repeat yesterday, so it was an anomaly.

And finally, I have to recognize that this improvement has occurred in a time when I was doing a 50% water change 3 out of 4 days. Could the fact that I haven't done a WC since Saturday have this extra growth effect? Hard to say.

So for now I continue to monitor levels, making sure I don't bottom out, and watch and wait. And I'm hessitant to do another water change because my potassium should be in the low teens now (based on my calcs), and my tap water has about 3ppm. So my next change is going to cut that almost in half. Granted, by my estimation the tank uses up to a couple of ppm K a day anyway, so I'll soon be at a point that if I'm not dosing, I'll have to do waer changes to put potassium back in the tank. But I'm not quite there yet.

So the plan is do no more water changes this week (believing nothing will bottom out before Friday), watch the tank, and on Friday decide one of two courses of action:

1) dose the tank to the levels observed last week as "successful" in algae reduction
2) or Move to EI/Sticky levels

Depends on progress.


*THANKS*

*gbhil*, *Alight*, *cbennett*, *Ktulu_JL* - your comments are too kind. And appreciated. Thank you.

gbhil - I can't find the ducks. Sorry. Good suggestion though! And as to the autodosing, this in no experiment on this tank. I took most of the autodosing equiptment off my 20g to put on my 75. On that 20g I had the autodosing down to a freaking science. I actually went away for work for several weeks, on several different occasions, and came back to find my ferts exactly at the levels I left them. I should write that up in a separate thread some where, some time. But it explains why I don't have a lot of patience for "autodosing" scepticism. It can be screwed up, or imprecise, depending on how you do it. But in my case, it is rock solid.

Al - Al, is your algae the same as mine? You didn't mention light WPG (a crude measure admittedly). Mabye that is the difference. And I don't have HC, I have Hemianthus micranthemoides, donated by a gratious PT member.

cbennett - I agree on the _very strong suspicion _of the silicates. And as for giving up the biotope, the jury is out on that. If this gets replaced, it will be with something that I know will be beautiful and will get joy out of. I'm through with hard stuff.

Ktulu_JL - Glad you stuck around and joined. And if we come to the conclusion here that (contrary to my beliefs) that it really could be the predators that turned this tank around, you really should use it as an example in a "Nature of Algae" thread. Still an interesting theory.


----------



## Evergreen

First post, but I've spent hours reading through your dilemma! Almost getting tired of it, I could imagine how you must feel sometimes. I'm using all the information to avoid the same out break in my tank. Going back through the posts it seems to me it all went wrong at the very beginning. Maybe started out with to few fast growers, to much fert, or maybe to much light at the beginning. went away for a week and was not able to watch closely enough? What ever it was the tank was thrown out of balance and this stuff got a foothold. It now seems to own your tank! I think I would start over. fast growers,algae eaters, then when established start converting to your biotope.

Whatever you do my heart goes out to you!

Keith,


----------



## scolley

Thanks Keith. Always good to hear from sub-human primates wearing glasses.:icon_wink


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## Evergreen

scolley said:


> Thanks Keith. Always good to hear from sub-human primates wearing glasses.:icon_wink


Hey, just spending my days swinging from the trees!

What are we thinking, trying to control chaos in a glass box!

If you did start over, what would you do different?

Keith,


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## scolley

Evergreen said:


> If you did start over, what would you do different?


Well Keith, I'm hesitant to create any expectations. I want the freedom to try whatever I want, and change course in mid-stream if I hit a bump. But...

After looking at so much ugly with this algae, for so long, I find myself really, really attracted to beauty. Or at least those things I find beautiful. I like the visually simple (your basic stark Japanese aesthetic) and the very colorful. I'm not good with color subtlety.

My problem with that of course, is color leads me to Discus. But I've never kept Discus, and I do want to keep this easy. So that is a conflict I'm struggling with at the moment. Either that or a big (and I mean big) group of schooling (not shoaling) fish, with a predator or two in the tank to keep them a bit uncomfortable and in a tight pattern.

Both of those fish scenarios lend themselves to a sparsely planted tank, or at least one with a lot of open area. I am _not _considering a densely planted tank, particularly the style Amano uses when he plants densely. (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. many people think not planting densely is how I got into this mess in the first place.)

Hard to say. I'm trying not to thing about it too much as I want to slog through this first. Thanks for asking though.


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## gbhil

> After looking at so much ugly with this algae, for so long, I find myself really, really attracted to beauty. Or at least those things I find beautiful. I like the visually simple (your basic stark Japanese aesthetic) and the very colorful. I'm not good with color subtlety.












Take it to a "whole 'nother level" Steve :biggrin:


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## scolley

gbhil said:


> Take it to a "whole 'nother level" Steve :biggrin:


I don't know how you did it! But you stole my idea!

How am I going to be able to stand up and bask in the warm glow of approval, if every time I have an idea, someome jumps up and steals it before I can finish it!:hihi: That's it! No more talk about the future tank from me. 


PS - If I _had _done it, I was gonna use more bubbles and it would have looked better than yours.


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## Alight

The algae is exactly the same. Probably the only difference is that I have a significant true hair algae problem as well as the thread algae. I've been rotating plants out of my tank into my grow out tank to feed my otos (they're practically starving in my bare bottom grow out tank with potted plants). When they're clean, I put them back into the show tank, only to have them coated again in less than a week. 

Steve, I was at 4.2 watts per gallon or so, but just took out about 60 watts so am in the 3.5 range now (as of two days ago). Reducing the lighting had the effect of dramitically increasing nitrates. The shot up from 11 ppm to 18 ppm or more in less than 2 days. They had been going down between water changes. I guess that's because there is less algae and all that algae I was pulling out of the tank was my nitrates being pulled out of the tank. Of course the plant growth has slowed down, too, so that's also part of the nitrate increase. 

BTW, my tank is a Discus tank. I've been keeping and breeding Discus for more than 30 years, now, but this is my first attempt to have a high tech, planted Discus showtank. I believe the heavy load of Discus is a major part of my problem (Tom Barr agrees). 

http://www.simplydiscus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50196

Is the parallel universe thread from yours for my algae woes. Pics of the tank are there.

Al Light


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## bastalker

I see yer still battling the uglies over there. 

I understand that leavin the tank for a day on mothers day produced algae on the lily pipes..Not a good sign at all. Algae should not still be growin if your c02 is crankin, an your not over dosin the tank. (no PO4 as Craig said)

Lesco just hooked me up with a 50 lb bag of Soil Master. Great lookin stuff!! At $12 a bag, it is a great bargain! That bein said, maybe a new start is easier than ya think! I bet the member on here would roak you so many plants, you wouldn't have room for most of em!!

Take that, and the info you have learned from this whole ordeal, and run with it. I got some more hygro, star grass, ludwiga etc... i can send ya.roud: 

If ya rip down the tank, clean it with bleach, it will kill anything that was in there. If ya dont believe that, take a plant with algae on it and dip it in a 10-1 solution of water and bleach an see what happens to the algae in about 30 seconds.


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## TheOtherGeoff

Steve, discus are easy. no worries dude. 

dud you get your amanos in yet? i havent seen mention of them or i missed it


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## A Hill

scolley said:


> Well Keith, I'm hesitant to create any expectations. I want the freedom to try whatever I want, and change course in mid-stream if I hit a bump. But...
> 
> *After looking at so much ugly with this algae, for so long, I find myself really, really attracted to beauty. Or at least those things I find beautiful. I like the visually simple (your basic stark Japanese aesthetic) and the very colorful. I'm not good with color subtlety.
> 
> My problem with that of course, is color leads me to Discus. But I've never kept Discus, and I do want to keep this easy. So that is a conflict I'm struggling with at the moment. Either that or a big (and I mean big) group of schooling (not shoaling) fish, with a predator or two in the tank to keep them a bit uncomfortable and in a tight pattern.*
> 
> Both of those fish scenarios lend themselves to a sparsely planted tank, or at least one with a lot of open area. I am _not _considering a densely planted tank, particularly the style Amano uses when he plants densely. (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. many people think not planting densely is how I got into this mess in the first place.)
> 
> Hard to say. I'm trying not to thing about it too much as I want to slog through this first. Thanks for asking though.


i thought about this... and the answer came to me! why not get a bunch of guppies? there are soooo many diffrent types you could start out with like 10 all diffrent colors and then sooner or later you would have so many diff colors! muuuch easier than discus!:hihi: 

ahh u probBLY THINK IM CRAZY 

-=- fish newb -=-


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## Evergreen

scolley said:


> Well Keith, I'm hesitant to create any expectations. I want the freedom to try whatever I want, and change course in mid-stream if I hit a bump. But...
> 
> After looking at so much ugly with this algae, for so long, I find myself really, really attracted to beauty. Or at least those things I find beautiful. I like the visually simple (your basic stark Japanese aesthetic) and the very colorful. I'm not good with color subtlety.
> 
> My problem with that of course, is color leads me to Discus. But I've never kept Discus, and I do want to keep this easy. So that is a conflict I'm struggling with at the moment. Either that or a big (and I mean big) group of schooling (not shoaling) fish, with a predator or two in the tank to keep them a bit uncomfortable and in a tight pattern.
> 
> Both of those fish scenarios lend themselves to a sparsely planted tank, or at least one with a lot of open area. I am _not _considering a densely planted tank, particularly the style Amano uses when he plants densely. (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. many people think not planting densely is how I got into this mess in the first place.)
> 
> Hard to say. I'm trying not to thing about it too much as I want to slog through this first. Thanks for asking though.


Steve, you are a true artist! I like both those ideas. Kept Discus for years, but in bare bottom tanks. Very easy to keep as long as the tank is setup just for them. 

Well, I followed the conventional wisdom and stuffed my tank. Already battling thread and diatoms. So will see how that goes!

When you find your way through this you will be a wealth of wisdom! 

Keith,


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## gbhil

scolley said:


> I don't know how you did it! But you stole my idea!
> 
> How am I going to be able to stand up and bask in the warm glow of approval, if every time I have an idea, someome jumps up and steals it before I can finish it!:hihi: That's it! No more talk about the future tank from me.
> 
> 
> PS - If I _had _done it, I was gonna use more bubbles and it would have looked better than yours.


Believe it or not, that fine piece of work is Oliver Knott's. Were it mine, I'd have used marbles rather than gravel :biggrin:


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## Curare

Ahh steve, I know the feeling of tearing your hair out, and I'm starting to wonder why I'm signing myself up for a world of pain, but hey. Here's a thought.

If any of this project had been easy,would you have got the same amount of satisfaction out of it?

And if it's too easy, I'll give you a couple more hobbies to try out that will really hurt your brain...

..and wallet.


*looks at tattered clothes and piles of toys* ahh so THAT's why I'm broke all the time!


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## bastalker

gbhil said:


> Believe it or not, that fine piece of work is Oliver Knott's. Were it mine, I'd have used marbles rather than gravel :biggrin:


:hihi: :hihi: :hihi:


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## Curare

I couldn't use marbles.

I lost mine.


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## scolley

*Back on topic...*

OK, this has all been an amusing diversion. Thanks. But now I'm going back on topic...

Conditions continue to slowly improve. Except, not surprisingly, green spot algae has decided to show up. Not bad, but I assume it is an indicator that I'm perched on the precipice of "bottom out" conditions of some form. So within a day or two I've either got to be ready to jump to EI, or begin dosing to the levels that started working last week.

It is also worth mentioning that in another thread *Happy Camper *warned against disturbing this stuff except in a water change. Frankly, that could be exactly why this stuff got so out of control - me sticking my hand in for 30 minutes every day and loosening it up. What I thought was "removing" the stuff was in actual fact spreading it around big time.

So from now on, my hands are staying of out the tank. As a matter of fact, they pretty much have been out of the tank this entire recent period of improvement. The last time I did a manual cleaning was during the water change last weekend, which was followed by a suspected small increase in algae over the next two days.

_I'm inclined to think this is not coincidence_.​
So for now anyway, my hands are staying out of the tank!


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## cbennett

ya know, every time i've gotten GSA, it's been towards the end of the breaking in period. Basically all the other types of algae have come and gone and GSA will show up telling me the plants are happy and add more PO4 already. What is your PO4 level? You've got tons in your tapwater, so I guess you'll add enough PO4 when you do waterchanges? Glad to hear things are improving!


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## unirdna

scolley said:


> So from now on, my hands are staying of our the tank.


:icon_excl 

Yet, another important point I failed to mention during our PM session re: thread algae :icon_redf . During the 2-month time for that series of photos I posted, I never once removed the hair algae manually. I was too lazy to bother. Well, not so much lazy as apathetic. In any event, that hair algae went away because it died. Broke up and melted - much the same way plants do. 

Sorry I overlooked that little piece of info, Steve. Cause and effect is a real crap-shoot with this hobby. 

:iamwithst


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## scolley

unirdna said:


> Sorry I overlooked that little piece of info, Steve. Cause and effect is a real crap-shoot with this hobby.


You know we are all learning here. And conventional wisdom for algae says "Manually remove what you can!" If I were in your shoes, I would have thought that defeating it without manual removal was sure proof of the validity of my actions, rather than it being (more likely) a major causal force in the outcome.

As I look back at my actions, I see that I started the manual removal when I declared all-out-war on this stuff. And it just so happens that when I declared all-out-war was when it decided to start kicking my a$$.

So I strongly suspect, that when all this is over, any lessons learned summary will include a very strong statement about killing this algae running contrary to convention. A major factor in its elimination being leave it the heck alone!


*cbennett *- the GSA is just another data point in my certain knowledge that I'm letting the macros in my tank slowly run dry. It's what my math says. It's what my test kits say. And now it's what the GSA says too. Thanks for the post.


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## shuks

It's also what alot of people have been saying for a long time..


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## scolley

shuks said:


> It's also what alot of people have been saying for a loing time..


Are you talking about not touching the algae? Really? Where was that? I missed it. No kidding.

PS - let's not confuse advice with not trimming plants and letting them grow, with advice to not manually remove algae. Big difference.


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## shuks

No, I meant that you were starving your plants. You said, "Im slowly letting the macros run dry". I'm pretty confident that you need to be dosing more. You just have to get abbord the EI train. Choo choo!


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## scolley

*It's EI time!!!!*

OK, no new thread algae on the lily pipes today! First time ever! I'm certain I know how to repeat this when I need to... drive down the nutrients. So I'm not worried about a little test now. Particularly since there is still an abundance of this algae on plants in the tank, and it would take months for the animals to eat it all, even if if never grew a speck.

My pH2 has been stable at 6.5 for days now, having stabilized the changes I made while shifting control to my needle valve, away from the SMS 122.

My KH has been adjusted to 4.5 with baking soda
My CO2 should be around 40ppm. I WILL NOT crank my CO2 up further for an EI test, because the test stops being one of EI and dosing levels, but one of CO2 concentrations instead. And I've already done that - it doesn't work on this algae, and it kills shrimp. 40 ppm CO2 is 40 ppm.
My NO3 is around 8ppm
My PO4 is around 0.8ppm
My K is estimated to be around 13ppm (you have not choice but to trust my math on that one, since we can't test for it)

My tapwater will not let me get much lower than these levels. New algae growth has stopped. And now I'm at risk of new algaes from bottoming nutrients out. So if I'm gonna try EI and sticky levels, _now is the time_.

The recommended levels are:

3/4Tsp KN03 3x a week
3/16Tsp KH2P04 3x a week
1/4Tsp K2S04 3x a week
15ml Trace 3x a week​
I don't have teaspoons that I trust for fractions of teaspoons. But I trust the full level. So I took 10 level teaspoons of my dry KNO3, KH2PO4, and K2SO4 and measured them all on my digital scale. Then dividing the sums by 10 gave me a reasonably accurate gram weight of 1 teaspoon of each nutrient. So my gram dosing equivalents will be:

3.0 grams KN03 3x a week
0.8 grams KH2P04 3x a week
1.2 grams K2S04 3x a week
and of course...
15ml Trace 3x a week​
I'll start tomorrow, and commit to 1 week of observation, even it it gets scary. As I've stated in the past, I'm not doing a long term test. If it works, results should be visible soon - especially since I am beginning at a zero growth level for this algae. I'm setting EI/Sticky Levels up to succeed.

I do not have the ability to "throttle" my CO2 as Craig has suggested, even it I wanted to. My needle valve is too imprecise... on little touch can double, or halve (or worse) the bubble rate. But I will go ahead an turn on the extra two bulbs after the first few hours of light, and then back down again at the end of the day - just to give the plants the juice they need. It is worth mentioning that I am still convinced that once this algae gets it's minimal level of light, any additional light doesn't really make a big difference - it's the available nutrients that drive it. So for me to hold back the light, IMO, would be to hold back the plants. And if you read my earlier posts you will note that even this level is very far from what I would call a high light tank.

So fingers crossed, and we'll see!


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## uncskainch

Steve wrote:
"You know we are all learning here....So I strongly suspect, that when all this is over, any lessons learned summary will include a very strong statement about killing this algae running contrary to convention."

I think that's what's so interesting about this whole thread -- the problem solving and the willingness to question the conventional wisdom and, through trial, error, frustration, and (we hope) success, learn something UNconventional that will contribute to the growing body of knowledge built by those who enjoy the hobby. Thanks for continuing to document as the story unfolds, Steve. I'm looking forward to that lessons learned summary!

And if you decide to go with the tank style in one of the photos a while back (with the neon gravel and bubbles), you should know that the Easter Island heads that I have in my nano come in two or three MUCH bigger sizes. They'd be AWESOME with discus. :hihi:


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## scolley

uncskainch said:


> And if you decide to go with the tank style in one of the photos a while back (with the neon gravel and bubbles), you should know that the Easter Island heads that I have in my nano come in two or three MUCH bigger sizes. They'd be AWESOME with discus.


LOL! :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: 

Maybe a new AGA category - Post-modern Kitsch!

All joking aside, some things can be sooo bad, you have to see the art in them. I can visualize it now - quite dramatic! But if I have that in the family room, I'm gonna have to go dig up my swinging-hips Elvis clock and hang that back up too.


----------



## BlueRam

Posted that back on #976
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/263067-post976.html

So what do I win?



scolley said:


> Are you talking about not touching the algae? Really? Where was that? I missed it. No kidding.
> 
> PS - let's not confuse advice with not trimming plants and letting them grow, with advice to not manually remove algae. Big difference.


----------



## Curare

Hmmm!

Interesting. Lets see how you go after a week or two with no hands in the tank Steve, then you'll know for sure, but it sounds to me like you've got it nailed.


----------



## scolley

BlueRam said:


> Posted that back on #976
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/263067-post976.html
> 
> So what do I win?


OK pal... come clean. Were you saying to leave the algae alone? That was pretty obtuse. Particularly when referencing a tank that has no algae to speak of.

But if you say that's what you meant, then absolutely pal! You win the prize!


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> Hmmm!
> 
> Interesting. Lets see how you go after a week or two with no hands in the tank Steve, then you'll know for sure, but it sounds to me like you've got it nailed.


FWIW - No hands in the tank appears to be significant in the lack of the rate of spread of this stuff. But don't forget, the reason for starting the daily removal was because the "hands off" policy was not working.

Which is to say, I had problems that needed to be fixed. The hands in the tank just made it worse. So this last week with hands out of the tank should has still seen significant algae spread, just not at the rate of the recent hands-in-the-tank period. But it did not. Nowhere near.

So something changed that was significant. I listed all the changes previously (see post 994). Personally, I'm convinced it is the combined effect of no more micros coupled with reductions in phosphate concentrations.

The forthcoming EI plus Sticky levels will reverse that, and provide me the opportunity to eat my words soon.


----------



## Curare

Yeah, I'm finding that too. I've stopped dosing my micros so much, I put in maybe a 1/4 teaspoon a week, but the macros still get tossed in with reckless abandon. Algae is minimal (touches wood) and well, the plants I'm pruning out are worth enough for me to swap with fish, so I guess something is going right.


----------



## Betowess

I don't get it. Your Parms are looking good. Less than 1 ppm PO4. Under 10 of NO3. You could add a tiny bit, but... Why not finish the first "starve" test and let the tank heal itself before delving into EI dosing which is going to load ya up in PO4 and NO3 and maybe throw out the barely arrived balance you have been striving for. Just my .02 cents. But heck, don't fix it if its getting well. Then again, this is a test. I know. I'll shut up. LOL


----------



## scolley

Betowess said:


> I don't get it. Your Parms are looking good. Less than 1 ppm PO4. Under 10 of NO3. You could add a tiny bit, but... Why not finish the first "starve" test and let the tank heal itself before delving into EI dosing which is going to load ya up in PO4 and NO3 and maybe throw out the barely arrived balance you have been striving for. Just my .02 cents. But heck, don't fix it if its getting well. Then again, this is a test. I know. I'll shut up. LOL


BECAUSE this is a test.

My well intentioned preparation for EI/Sticky Levels (from post 994) brought the algae down to "no new growth" levels. So we won't be able to see if it could have contained the outbreak.

But it may well eliminate the algae that is there. That would be grand. And if so, I'll also be able to observer how my tank does at those levels. Which will also be great information to use when I take my tank back to the levels that I think are appropriate. It would be a wonderful comparative test. And believe me, my tank will remain at the levels that it performs best at. I'm happy to have this very low risk opportunity to learn.

Now another alternative is that EI/Sticky Levels are going to cause the algae to bloom. And if that leads to a week of algae blooming I'll rapidly revert to current conditions to get things back under control. That we'll engage in the thrilling dialogs of "Steve says EI didn't work" vs. "Steve didn't give it long enough", "Steve didn't crank the CO2", "Steve was running too much light", "Steve wasn't using measuring spoons", blah, blah, blah. The list could be long.

But I'll be satisfied enough for my own sake.

It will be an interesting week!


----------



## alexandre

Hello Steve,

I don’t believe EI will work on this algae. I tried, way to much PO4. Keep PO4 at 0.5 and dose more micro, remember Pjan and Rex they keep PO4 low.
But I understand your point: Your need to try!


----------



## scolley

alexandre said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> I don’t believe EI will work on this algae. I tried, way to much PO4. Keep PO4 at 0.5 and dose more micro, remember Pjan and Rex they keep PO4 low.
> But I understand your point: Your need to try!


I'm in full agreement, and have expressed this specifically to many people. But our postion is one that a whole lotta people disagree with - that firmly believe this is the fix.

And there is little risk to me now if I get a massive outbreak - even if I can't fix it, I just scour the tank (like I was going to anyway) being just a bit wiser.

And there is always the possibility that we are wrong, and everything will turn out wonderful! And if you gotta be wrong about something, what better than when being wrong means finding yourself stuck with a healthy, vibrant, algae free tank?

Nope. Being wrong would not be so bad.:icon_wink


----------



## alexandre

Of course, it will be nice. But maybe those people did not start EI with this algae, but with a healthy tank or another kind of algae. I think that is the difference.


----------



## scolley

*Start of EI pics*

I figured I had better photodocument what conditions were at the time I started EI/Sticky Levels. I dosed macros, as documented previously, this morning just as the lights were about to come on. These shots were taken about 90 minutes after that, under 2 bulbs. So this is the tank right at the beginning of the process.

These are clickable pics if you want to see a bigger one.

The first several shots are just a progressive drill into a closer view. Starts out fine, but winds up with shots that help you see why I'm so unhappy.













PS - My photo correcting software pushes these reds just a shade - don't know why. They are nice and red. But not quite this red.


----------



## fresh_lynny

oh man I see why you are mad :icon_frow


----------



## Ryzilla

you got the dreaded fuzz algea. Sheesh... I had this for about 3 months and I couldnt win. UNTIL!! I reduced the photoperiod to 10hrs from 12hrs, and slightly reduced the wattage emited into the tank from 154w to 116w. This is all over a 30g. I continued the reccomended EI method of dosing although I tweaked the nitrate to a little lower dosage ( i just eyeballed it). It has been about 1 month since the tweak and the fuzz is on its last life. Its just barley hanging on to the glass where light directly hits it.


----------



## scolley

*Oh My God! Look At All That Algae!!!!!!!*

Just kidding.:hihi: 


First day of EI/Sticky went rather well actually:
No new algae on the lily pipes.:thumbsup: (surprised there)
Got some nice new plant growth. :thumbsup: (to be expected - they needed the food)
And lot's of nice pearling (goes with the territory of food and light, never a problem in this tank)​
I looked up Fertilator's ppm estimates for the what this 1st dosing was. When I combine the dose with what I believe was in the tank to start with, I get about N:15 ppm, P:2.9 ppm, K:20 ppm. That puts me back into the space where I started, though P is higher. And since I really think this is fed by Phosphates, I'd have expected a nice bit of algae growth.

But tomorrow is the micro day. I've also held that micros were somehow limiting in this algaes ability to use P. So maybe the bloom will be tomorrow???

We'll see. Either way it's nice to see the plants growing, and the algae not exploding. That's a good combination in my book!


Oh yeah - Ry - your wattages (per gallon equivalents) are not far off from my own. And my photo period is shorter. So I'm not so sure if what seemed to work for you will do the same for me. Thanks though.


----------



## scolley

*Correction on old bad post*

I got a communication today that caused me to go back and look at an old post... I reported a while back that my tap water had 8-12 ppm phosphates!

Scratch that - stupid typo on my part. That should have been 0.8-1.2ppm phosphates! Sorry.


----------



## Curare

Nearly there scolley, you're getting somewhere, I'll be watching to see what happens with your EI dosing.


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

That is some better news Steve :biggrin: 

Stay consistent with it, dosing the EI sticky is simple, the tricky part is using the _Light and C02_.
The EI sticky is for high light, if you want to run low light, do not dose the EI.

When dosing as in the sticky, if all the nutrient's are available to the plant's and you do not run enough light, you will get algae, if you have to much light, you will get algae, the light is the driving factor of the tank, make all the nutrient's available including good C02 diffusion, then use the light to drive the system, if running high light and you start to see signs of algae, back off the light a bit, raise it up or turn down a bulb whatever is needed. but only for a short time, keep dosing, keep picking at the algae, keep checking C02, you also need good flow and some surface aggitation.
But try like the dickens not to run out of any nutrient especially KN03..BGA stinks..lol

We will see you on the other side soon  



scolley said:


> Just kidding.:hihi:
> 
> 
> First day of EI/Sticky went rather well actually:
> No new algae on the lily pipes.:thumbsup: (surprised there)
> Got some nice new plant growth. :thumbsup: (to be expected - they needed the food)
> And lot's of nice pearling (goes with the territory of food and light, never a problem in this tank)​
> I looked up Fertilator's ppm estimates for the what this 1st dosing was. When I combine the dose with what I believe was in the tank to start with, I get about N:15 ppm, P:2.9 ppm, K:20 ppm. That puts me back into the space where I started, though P is higher. And since I really think this is fed by Phosphates, I'd have expected a nice bit of algae growth.
> 
> But tomorrow is the micro day. I've also held that micros were somehow limiting in this algaes ability to use P. So maybe the bloom will be tomorrow???
> 
> We'll see. Either way it's nice to see the plants growing, and the algae not exploding. That's a good combination in my book!
> 
> 
> Oh yeah - Ry - your wattages (per gallon equivalents) are not far off from my own. And my photo period is shorter. So I'm not so sure if what seemed to work for you will do the same for me. Thanks though.


----------



## scolley

Thanks Craig. It's a bit early to post this, but my history with this tank makes me comfortable with this...

Today was the first micro dosing day. Based on my prior experiences, I have every reason to have expected this algae to have exploded by now, 4 hours into the photo period. And with the quantities of micros you suggest, _explode _is absolutely the right word. But the fact is, not only has it not exploded today, there is no additional algae growth that I can see!:icon_wink 

In reply:
1) I'm watching CO2 like a hawk
2) I've got one of the best water flows in a tank you could want. Great circulation and tank turnover about 5 times an hour.
3) Surface agitation is moderate, very controllable with the lily pipes.
4) I've figured out to keep my hands OFF the algae - so no removal. Though I may agitate it up a bit in a few days to see if this regimen can deal with it.
5) Finally, there is still a way's to go with EI/Slickly Levels. The levels don't get wacky until the second and third macros doses, and that's not until tomorrow. Right now the macro levels are nearly in line with my prior practice. So more to come...​
Thanks for the note. This is, and will certainly continue to be, interesting!


----------



## Snailpoo

Ryzilla said:


> you got the dreaded fuzz algea. Sheesh... I had this for about 3 months and I couldnt win. UNTIL!! I reduced the photoperiod to 10hrs from 12hrs, and slightly reduced the wattage emited into the tank from 154w to 116w. This is all over a 30g. I continued the reccomended EI method of dosing although I tweaked the nitrate to a little lower dosage ( i just eyeballed it). It has been about 1 month since the tweak and the fuzz is on its last life. Its just barley hanging on to the glass where light directly hits it.



Oh, I had fuzz algae that I couldn't beat too. Then my lights died, and it took me 2 weeks to get around to ordering a replacement fixture. All my plants have lost their reddish hues (and my glosso looks like a mess), but no more fuzz algae!


This was something drastic that I really didn't intend to try, but it worked.


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## mecgeorgeneo

from a far away view the tank looks great! i'm sorry to see the close up view tho. is that a lot of ludwigia repens you have in your tank? or is that some ovalis i see there?


----------



## scolley

mecgeorgeneo said:


> Is that a lot of ludwigia repens you have in your tank? or is that some ovalis i see there?


Actually is is a bunch of repens with ovalis (I think) mixed in. I got this batch, sent to me by a vendor as all repens, but I could see that some of the little stems were not repens. 

They were brought in to help beat this algae, so have never had a chance to really flourish, the algae has beat on it so bad. But when you brush the algae off the ovalis (I think), it is one of the most beautiful aquatic plants I have ever seen. That plant and its potential beauty, along with the L. glandulosa, is one of the biggest reasons why I haven't scratched this tank and started over. I want to see that stuff when it is happy. It is going to be grand!


*Snailpoo *- thanks for the tip. A blackout is still possible, and it is good to know a pseudo-blackout worked for you. Thanks.


----------



## mecgeorgeneo

sooo when ur tank clears up and all is beaten & well, do you think you want to sell some of that ovalis to me?  i've been looking to buy it from someone on the forum but it seems to be the least offered plant ever! the pic of the "glandulosa" looks like what i have. it is pretty! did you get your shrimpies to work on that algae yet?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

scolley said:


> 5) Finally, there is still a way's to go with EI/Slickly Levels. The levels don't get wacky until the second and third macros doses, and that's not until tomorrow.


That is okay if they go wacky, don't worry about the numbers, let the tank run its course, keep dosing, keep C02 going, and _use the light_! the plants and the algae will talk to you. :thumbsup:


----------



## scolley

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> That is okay if they go wacky, don't worry about the numbers, let the tank run its course, keep dosing, keep C02 going, and _use the light_! the plants and the algae will talk to you. :thumbsup:


I figured I'd let things run stable a bit... see how it went, before trying anything wacky with the light. So what I'm finding so far (day 3):

With the light set at a level that gets pearling going, but not intensely, I'm getting very little thread algae. Though it is still growing - not on the glass as it did when things were bad - but it is still growing on new leaves. Seems to take a few days though before it gets to a leaf, instead of all over it on the day a bud emerges, as it used to.

Also, I'm getting a pretty good amount of dust on the glass now. Not insane amounts, but it's definately popping up now. And the GSA seems to have stopped growing.

So what I'm wondering, is if I need to boost the lights a bit more... get the pearling really cranking. You got any thought on this Craig?


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

You can blast the light a bit, about 30 minutes, then back off, with all nutrient's available to the plant's, what this does is add vigor, gives them a thrust.

The green dust is actually a good sign although it can be a pain, let it run it's course, clean it during water change and you can change some water any time you want, does not have to be "just" once a week, stir the plants a bit run your fingers through them, top what can be topped and toss the bottom infected part.

Keep giving the plant's a thrust, but go easy with the light's, you do not want to hit them with to much light for to long, that is where most people run into trouble.

To deal with green dust there are a few ways to go about it, leave it alone and let run it's course, or clean the glass as you are changing the water, or drain the tank and clean inside glas with paper towels, while trying not to get any loose in the water, then run the UV for 1 day after water change.


----------



## scolley

*Update*

Well, day 4 of EI/Sticky Levels behind me. Early results both are not what I expected (algae bloom), nor what I hoped (total cessation of thread algae growth).

Prior to EI, in preparation for it, I drove my nutrients way, way down. And the results appeared to be cessation of thread algae growth on my lily pipes, the beginnings of GSA, and the possible lack of vigor of the plants.

With EI and Sticky Levels kicked in, PLUS higher light, things have changed but not radically so far. There is STILL no algae growth on my lily pipes, the GSA has tapered off, but GDA has pretty well kicked in. And to my great disappointment, I absolutely confirmed today that the old nemesis - thread algae - is growing on leaves that have sprouted since I started EI/Sticky.

*Putting things in perspective*
1) I've only been doing this 4 days - needs more time.
2) I do seem to be getting a bit better growth.
3) I thought algae would explode with all the phosphates coupled with the massive amounts of micros, and that absolutely has not happened.
4) I'm not sure the thread algae progress has changed a bit for doing EI/Sticky Levels. While my old way of shutting it down - no nutrients at all - was clearly a dead end path. But with my having shut the major thread algae growth down, it's possible that I could have just returned to my old dosing regimen and seen the same results I'm seeing now - my "EI day 1" experience in post 1073 bears this out.
5) I've gotten the results back on the lab tests, and all is not well with my water - more on that later.​
So for now it's stick with the program for a few a while longer - watch and wait (and keep my hands out of the tank!).


----------



## Wö£fëñxXx

Keep on keep'n on...if the thread algae is still growing, you may want to re-think your light, believe it or not, that is one powerful setup.
Still burning to much light?

If dosing as in the sticky, and C02 is good, all that is left is the light. 

I have just setup my ADA tank a couple weeks ago, I have an extra 65w PC light I was going to try, no matter how I ran this light and I use a chain that is easily adjustable for various hight's so I could pinpoint what I wanted and what worked for the plant's.
I could not get this light to work so, the moral is, I have a couple of old stock lights that are a bit longer than the tank, but they tell me what I need to know, everything is doing much much better since changing the light.
The plants can only grow so fast, more light does not mean the plant's will grow faster up to a point that is, just thought I would throw that out there... 

Hang in there.


----------



## scolley

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> Keep on keep'n on...if the thread algae is still growing, you may want to re-think your light, believe it or not, that is one powerful setup.
> Still burning to much light?
> 
> If dosing as in the sticky, and C02 is good, all that is left is the light.


I'll not bother everyone with the details now, but I'm not running an extreme amount of light - don't have 6 bulbs burning all day, nor even 4.

My dosing is by the book to the sticky. And my CO2 is high enough that I suspect I'm killing shrimp (they are getting scarce). In the afternoon my tank looks like a bubble factory.

So I can indeed turn the light down to the minimum 2 bulb setup that I had running prior to trying EI/Sticky. Are you recommending try the lower light, even though I'm clearly cranking the ferts?


----------



## scolley

*Just gotta vent!*

Man, am I frustrated. And upset. 

My dumb bubble counter yesterday took a dive in bubble rate. Everything had been set fine for days, and suddenly, for no aparent reason the needle valve was only letting a trickle of CO2 out. I caught this before the lights even came on (I'm watching this tank like a hawk!), which was cool because it gave me the chance to get the CO2 back up before it mattered. Milwaukee needle valve piece of crap!

In checking the damage to the CO2 level, my SMS 122, my Milwaukee handheld pH meter, and my test kit gave three distinctly different readings. Great! Milwaukee crap strikes again. I'm never buying another Milwaukee product.

So I drive my pH down to what I "think" was 6.2, just in case. And wouldn't you know? Today I can't find a single shrimp, and only one of my rainbow darters. I'll be I killed them.:icon_cry: 

_But wait! It get's better!​_
The green dust algae is really cooking now. Not as bad as some pictures I've seen, but bad enough that I hate even walking in the room with the tank. I'm really trying leave it alone for a few weeks like Tom Barr recommends - but boy is it painful.

_And wait! It get's even better!​_
EI/Sticky is not working. Not yet anyway. The thread algae got better in some places, and now is definitely worse in others - particularly on new leaves. The new growth had been safe until a few days ago. That's a major bummer too, because until the new growth can stay clean, there is no fixing this. I've even got a bit growing on the lily pipes again.

In response to Craig's recommendation for goosing the light, I recently created a 30 minute period for the last three days where I was burning all 6 bulbs. So I've eliminated that now. And I've cut back the time it burns 4 bulbs down to a measly 2 hours a day. The rest of the 9 hour day is 2 bulbs, for total of 108 watts. Not high light.

But I can only hope that it is the light that precipitated this. Because all week the levels of micros/micros have been building up in the tank. And I KNOW the levels are way, way beyond what my plants can use. So they are swimming in food right now. And even with the water change coming tomorrow, it will be worse next week.

I think I'm gonna give it another week, because I really do hope this is going to work. But it's not looking good right now.

OK I'm through whining. Sorry, but it's making me nuts.


----------



## BlueRam

Are you going to put that out there just to hang?



scolley said:


> 5) I've gotten the results back on the lab tests, and all is not well with my water - more on that later.
> 
> So for now it's stick with the program for a few a while longer - watch and wait (and keep my hands out of the tank!).


So from a quick look at this thread, it seems that crashing the nutrients made things a lot better (with some GSA <where I am now>). 

I have ignored my tank for quite a while (dosing "fish food" only) but when I crank the CO2 I would expect pearling for a day or three at which point it tapers off. When I added PMDD <ECO Ecosystems> *BOOM* instant pearling. So if I kept up with it I could have gone through the nutrients to get the exact right combo....

However the tank is going with some GSA issues and maybe some hair algae (in the one hidden spot). I need to prune (Moved in Feb, have not done much since) so basically my big tank is acting a lot like your little tank. No fuss and just fine. Not award winning either...

So keep up the good fight. Keep posting pictures.


----------



## Wasserpest

An observation I made a couple of times with a couple of algae...

If you ignore them, they go away by themselves. That doesn't work with all types (not thread, hair, bba or bga) and not in all circumstances (each tank is different).

But this worked well for me with green water and green dust. Instead of fighting it, scrubbing, water changing, etc, let it sit there and get really thick. I found it takes only a few days, maybe 2 weeks, and they "collapse" on their own.

It's really tough though. Looking at green water, or something greenish dusted for a few days in your beautiful living room is not easy.


----------



## scolley

*Water Tests!*



Wasserpest said:


> But this worked well for me with green water and green dust. Instead of fighting it, scrubbing, water changing, etc, let it sit there and get really thick. I found it takes only a few days, maybe 2 weeks, and they "collapse" on their own.


Yeah, thanks. I'm trying to do that. I suppose it would be easier to suffer through a couple weeks of this if it was going to yield something nice. But in my case it's just a clearer view to a really bad thread algae problem.

But one thing is for sure, I'm not putting my hands in that tank. So if leaving it alone is a strategy, I'm following it hard core.



BlueRam said:


> Are you going to put that out there just to hang?


:hihi: Hey, thanks for the chuckle! I needed it!

No, I've known I have to get around to posting it. I just haven't had the heart to deal with it. The water tests raise a lot of really, really good questions. But honest to goodness, I've about had it with trying to figure stuff out for a while. I'm sure I'll get a second wind soon - I love a challenge. But I just wanted to step away from it for a few days... give it a rest as it were.


So I was planning on doing a whole write up on my response to this, if for no other reason than to keep you the reader from having to interpret this stuff. I figured I'd make it easier - you could just take pot-shots at my analysis.

But I'm too bushed for that right now, so I'll just post the results (on the left), and what I expected on the right. As you can see, there were 3 samples. My algae infested 75, my algae free (low tech) 25, and my tap water.

The tested were well performed, very well documented, and reasonably priced by KevinC. He does what appears to be really good work. Here is a link to his web site. Personally, I wish I'd have gotten these tests sooner.










I'm interested in your thoughts on this. I have my own, just not the energy to write it all up right now. But I will.


----------



## Betowess

Its the phosphates.


----------



## BlueRam

Thanks for posting Steve. Now watch us bat these numbers around like a kitten with a new ball of string!

Salt is high too. Looks like the tap is up KH and go. Looks like you are drinking "pre-dosed water" at your place:icon_roll


----------



## John P.

Are you dosing potassium separately from the KNO3?


----------



## scolley

*Water Analysis and Conclusions*

*Please Note*
The original water test results post from yesterday had an incorrect number in the CO2 (calculated PPM) field for the 75g Tank entry. That has been corrected in the original post. The old value of 41.8 has been changed to 51.5.

*Water Test Analysis*
I've broken this analysis up into a few different areas to make the problems/implications a bit more digestible. To aid the viewer, I've modified the original Water Test Results table to show those items I feel are at least noteworthy. Those items are now shown in light blue. The table also now shows in yellow those items that I feel are beyond noteworthy, but are clear cause for concern or understanding.












Carbonate Hardness
*Observed *- 75g Carbonate Hardness testing almost 1 dKH higher than actual
*Reason *- Assumed test kit error. Kit appears to read consistently high, as shown by the two tap water Carbonate Hardness readings.
*Implication *- 75g CO2 calculations for have been too high, by around 8-9 ppm for as long as the kit has been reading incorrectly. In my opinion, I have generally been running CO2 so high, that this is an interesting point, but I do not believe it gave rise to my algae, or lack of ability to get rid of it. Though there was a time a number of months ago when my pH was reading incorrectly and this would have just made that problem worse.​
Nitrate
*Observed *- Nitrate testing for the 75g significantly higher than actual, 10 ppm in this case.
*Reason *- Assumed bad test kit. Kit appears to read consistently high as shown by the two tap water Nitrate readings, though reading may improve as the value falls below 10 ppm.
*Implication *- It is worth noting that this was a high Nitrate reading for this tank, due to continued dosing though the lights were dim, hindering uptake. Generally my readings are in the low teens, 12-14. If those tests were high too, that could account for some of the lackluster growth of my plants and the really fabulous reds I've been seeing in my plants.​
Phosphate
*Observed *- Phosphate testing for the 75g significantly higher than test kit readings.
*Reason *- Assumed difficulty of reading this particular kit (Red Sea) as values approach its upper limit of 2.0. This appears to be supported by the consistent tap water readings. There also appears to be the strong possibility that phosphate readings are thrown off by high silicate content, which my tank has - this throws a level of uncertainty into all phosphate tests.
*Implication *- Have potentially been running Phosphates higher than I thought, which could have been a contributing factor to my algae.​
Potassium
*Observed *- My estimates of Potassium PPM were higher than actual. Potassium in my tap water was less than that reported by the water company.
*Reason *- A number of things could give rise to this. Fertilator could be wrong, or I could be using it wrong - I'm not going to consider that here. I could be measuring the wrong gram weights of dry ferts, or could be using bad math to calculate the mixtures of my stock solutions - also I'm not going to consider that here (as in now - I am open to that discussion). So all that leaves me with is my calculations of uptake rates and residual value assumptions at the end of each week after water change, and before dosing. This is really disturbing, that this number could be so far wrong where I thought it should be. Also please note - this was a temporary extremely high ppm based on high K being a possible factor in killing thread algae
*Implication *- Not good, in terms of my accurately predicting what my potassium levels are. The only reassurance is the fact that my plants have shown no signs of potassium deficiency or excess.​
Iron
*Observed *- both my tanks have measurable iron 
*Reason *- it's coming from the tap
*Implication *- this can explain why my plants continue to grow even without micros (I know that has really bothered a lot of people), and since I have come to the personal conclusion that this algae has growth spurts after the addition of micros, particularly anything with much iron in it, the high iron content in my water could help explain why I've had such a hard time ridding myself of this beast.​
Silicates
*Observed *- high silicates in tap water, high silicates in 75g, low silicates in 20g.
*Reason *- It is my understanding that silicates breakdown over time and are consumed by plants. This appears to be occurring in my 20g, stripping the high silicates from my water. But the is residual high amount in my 75g, the likely cause being the constant supply of excess silicates from the silica sand mixed in my substrate.
*Implication *- There is an excess of silicate in my 75g. Not surprisingly this thread algae appears to arise and thrive in high silicate tanks (like mine).​
Chloride
*Observed *- High chloride in 20g, much higher in 75g
*Reason *- Completely unknown. I'm using Prime, as directed before every water change. My tap has Chlorimine in it, which does not dissipate over time, so if the Prime was not working, my fish should be dead or greatly distressed. I would LOVE for someone to weigh in on this one with an explanation.
*Implication *- Also unknown.​
Calculated CO2
see Carbonate Hardness above​

*Conclusions*
1) Even though my test kits confirm each other (two kits providing the same reading), because the kits are the same brand, they are consistently wrong. Or I'm consistently reading them wrong. Two points for EI.
2) The nutrient rich content of my water explains why my 20g thrives with no ferts to speak of, and why all of my tanks seem to do well without the addition of significant quantities of micros, as long as I keep up the water changes.
3) I need to find out what's up with my high Chloride.
4) My 75 tank's plants cannot grind through all the silicates available to it, so until I change my substrate, thread algae will always be a threat in this tank.
5) Due to the high silicates in my tap water, as long as I'm using that for my water changes, any tank with additional silicates added (sand) is probably a bad idea.


Might have more conclusions to add later, gotta think about it. And I'm happy to hear dissenting views, or agreement. I'm trying to figure this out, so your feedback is most welcome. Thanks.


PS - John, I do dose potassium separately, but the high readings you see are deliberate, as mentioned above under Potassium.


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## uncskainch

Sounds like this water test gave you some great information and that the combination of too much silicate and too much phosphate may be a contributing factor. I'm looking forward to reading your conclusions on this, and your "next step" -- do you plan to break it down and replace the sand with a new substrate? (If you do, I'm still rooting for Easter Island Discus Paradise as Incarnation #2! You could get those underwater laser lights and something gloriously tacky that bubbles...maybe a red foil background? So many possibilities!  )


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## Bert H

:eek5: Overload, overload, overload...:eek5: . I got to hand it to you Steve, your tenacity is amazing! But man, trying to figure out exactly what part of this analysis is pertinent and what isn't, and how the different elements interrelate, is too much for me.:eek5: The chlorides bother me, and I don't really know what to make of the silicates. Other than that, if you go by the supposed edict of EI, which is to have everything the plants need in abundance, you're there, and then some! I'm not convinced you're going to come up with a causative culprit here to pin down. The most obvious I suppose would be the substrate. Here's a scenario for you: You do a total tear down, and bleach job on everything you have. Re-do the tank exactly as is, and have the problems recur. Do another tear down, change substrate to a more typical planted tank subs (flourite, eco, soilmaster, whatever...) and find success. Sounds simplistic and stupid, perhaps, but sometimes that's what's needed?... In any case, I'll keep following with anticipation your journey through this mess.

In regards to gd, a couple of us, myself included, are going through this and sort of documenting it here. For me, so far, so good.


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## Georgiadawgger

Steve, my tap water is a lot like yours...already full of nitrates and phosphates. Although I have adequate kH (upwards around 4-5), I've had to modify my EI dosing..actually I don't even add macros, other than .75 teaspoon of potassium every Wed and Sunday (2 water changes a week). If anything, I would dose a tad bit more nitrates to balance out the phosphates. 

Keep following EI...you'll be surprised at the results and stay patient with it. A little tinkering here and there will allow you to get a feel of how much to dose according to the sticky's...I'm thinking you will have to mod the dosing a bit in the long run.


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## A Hill

those water test results are nice to see.

i also looked and noticed

phospates..(spelling?) those are really high.... sand most likely the cause

and chloramine i thought looked REALLY high as you did too... wonder why?

good luck and hope all your critters didnt die... i think at the end of july if its still a humble jumble of algea try teardown/substriaght replacement... soilmaster i think has great potential i would be interested in that if you where going to change substraight... more or less for 2 reasons... CHEAP EFFECTIVE

-=- fish newb -=-


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## KevinC

Steve:

I'm still surprised by the high chloride (not chloramine as Fish Newb misstated). When I saw the large signal in my test, I assumed you were using KCl to get the potassium up (as I do) - that would have easily explained the Cl- result. The chloride that is released when water is treated for chloramine should add <5ppm chloride. If your water changes were regular (1/week or every other week), and sufficient (approx 50%), even an open-top high light tank should not build up that much chloride relative to the tap. Can chloride promote algae? As I understand, it can inhibit plants - but I haven't heard of the effect on algae.

Your tank phosphates don't seem that high to me - I find I can't keep the GSA at bay without 2-3ppm phosphates. Also, silicates can be a positive interference in phosphate tests - they make the result appear higher than it actually is. I think your test kit for phosphates is fine - I wouldn't expect an exact match with my result due to the uncertainty you described.

Sorry we couldn't come up with an easy answer!

Also, if anyone wants the details on the type of methods/instruments I used to conduct the analysis for Steve, go ahead and PM me - I'll save the rest of you from the gory details.

Kevin


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## scolley

*uncskainch *- "You could get those underwater laser lights and something gloriously tacky that bubbles...maybe a red foil background?"
LOL Kathy you kill me! The fact that I had not already thought of a red foil background myself show so clearly just how much I still have to learn. I humbly sit at the feet of a master!

*Bert *- I was supposed to have a "typical" substrate now, Eco-Complete. But I originally had silica sand in a portion of the tank that was to be plant free, but it got messed up and mixed in. That could have been my downfall - a deadly combination with the silicates in my tap water. Maybe. And thanks for the GDA documentation. I still haven't seem many people jump up with claiming results the same as Tom. I'm still giving it a shot anyway.

*Dawgger *- Thanks for the advice. It's nice to have "loaded" water, but yes indeed, you do have to take it account in your fert dose/schedule, as you clearly are.

*Fish Newb* - Thanks, but I'm not waiting until the end of July. My patience is wearing out, and I'm ready for something nice looking again. So I'll keep the current course a little while longer. But only a little while if real progress does not make itself apparent. And as for the Soilmaster - thanks for the tip! I've been thinking hard about that. It sounds like great stuff!

*KevinC *- Too bad I'm not using KCl. That would be a good excuse. But now I'm scratching my head. I do 50% water changes almost every week. Sometimes I travel and miss a week or two. But not often. As far as the chloride suppressing plants, maybe. But my 20g is looking pretty good, and it's high for that tank too - though not nearly as high as the 75. Thanks for the help with the testing. Even if I caused me to scratch my head over a few things, it also is quite refreshing to really know what's going on in the tank. Now that I know what is in there, the mystery in some areas is "how did it get that way?" and "does it matter?"


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## Curare

Steve, I've gotta admit, maybe Kevin is onto something, As my anectodal evidence may support.

my nano had a big problem with algae, as did my 10 for a while ( there's proof in the photos), and I couldn't nail it, I'd do water changes religiously and it 'd get worse and worse and worse! Until I chucked a tantrum and didn't touch either tank for 3 weeks, suddenly the algae had gone and voila, clean tanks!

I wonder whether the %50 water changes every week to "reset" the tank ala EI is not infact tipping the balance of the tank every time we do it. I've drastically reduced my water changes in all my tanks, and found better plant growth directly after a water change, but that doesn't mean that every water change will yeild the same result. I think a law of diminishing returns may apply to water changes... to the point where too many can be harmful to the tank's organisms.


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## scolley

Curare said:


> I wonder whether the %50 water changes every week to "reset" the tank ala EI is not infact tipping the balance of the tank every time we do it. I've drastically reduced my water changes in all my tanks, and found better plant growth directly after a water change, but that doesn't mean that every water change will yeild the same result. I think a law of diminishing returns may apply to water changes... to the point where too many can be harmful to the tank's organisms.


I've never done water changes to "reset" my tanks for EI. I've always believed that I was at a managed level of ferts (same level ppm every day_, and dosed after each water change bring the tank back to that level. It worked great in my 20. So until this recent EI test, I've not done it for a "reset".

I've always done my water changes to reduce the build up of other nasties in the tank. And whether I stick with EI or not, I'm comfortable with the concept that water changes can be a good way to keep a tank healthy. I know there are many schools of thought on this, but I prefer to stick with regular, large changes. I also like fish keeping, and having any kind of a fish load increases the value of water changes.

So if we presume for a moment that there is something evil in my tap water, and that regular water changes will promote this algae, I have a dilemma - reduce water changes or eradicate this algae.

I pick eradicate the algae. And that means tear-down.

Also, I'm uncomfortable with the concept of the frequency of my water changes making a substantial difference in whether or not I have an algae problem. I want this stuff GONE. My 20 is fine with this water. I want a 75 that is fine with this water too.

But thanks for the feedback.


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## shuks

50% waterchanges EVERY week! please...


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## scolley

shuks said:


> 50% waterchanges EVERY week! please...


If I'm not travelling, then that is the rule!


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## uncskainch

I do good sized (35-50%) water changes weekly as well and my plants and fish all seem to appreciate the fresh water. I don't see it as a big imposition -- I actually enjoy the time tending the tanks, pruning the plants, cleaning the glass, and checking all the equipment when I do the water changes and it doesn't take me all that long. If I had a 75, though, I'd be sure to get a Python!

And just for you: http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=30125;category_id=1687


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## scolley

*EI/STicky Update (it ain't workin')*

10 days of EI/Sticky levels have resulted in a tank that is substantially worse. Now I will be the first to admit, I strongly suspected that this level of macro/micro nutrient would cause the algae to explode. It has not. But it has been growing.

*Overall results so far:*

1) Degradation - Serious Green Dust outbreak
2) Improvement - Good plant growth. My L. glandulosa in particular is clearly thrilled.
3) Degradation - Some parts of some plants have become covered in the thread algae. That's "covered", as in "you you can't see the surface of the leaf anymore" type of covered.
4) Improvement - Some plants have new grow with very, very little thread algae.
5) No change - every single leaf, if examined close, enough has some thread algae.​
I have followed the program strictly. Dosing the Sticky recommended levels. Alternating days between micros and macro. No UV. 50% water change on day seven. CO2 levels through the roof. No hands in the tank, no glass scraping. The lights were turned up a bit for the first five days, so when I observed the new algae growth, I turned them down to the pre-EI level (where new algae growth appeared to have stopped), yet the algae growth continues.

The algae appeared to be be stopped in its tracks prior to starting EI/Sticky Levels. And the plants appeared to be suffering along with the algae in the nutrient starved environment I had set up. Now with excess nutrients in place both algae and plants appear to be happily growing.


*Conclusion*
EI as a method of dosing, and Sticky Levels as a guide for dosing levels, does not improve this algae, but makes it worse.

It may be fair to note that if this were a tank where there were a little of it, where the heavily infected leaves could easily be pruned out, EI/Sticky would have been a definite improvement. But in a situation where the algae starts out on every leaf, the infected leaves get worse, the new growth is quite improved - but pruning badly infected plants winds up meaning ripping up every single plant, and replanting only tiny little new stem tips. This is not an option for me as it would decimate the tank - removing 95% of the biomass.



PS - Is it just the PC's at my house, or has the editor gotten really funky, and have underlines (usually red) started appearing everywhere? This has suddenly started at both mine and my wife's PCs when accessing this site, and this site only.

PPS - Kathy, I've got a Python, and have always practiced 50% weekly water changes. And thanks for Tikki link!


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## scolley

*Pics*

It's hard to get good pictures of the tank through all the green dust, which since I have left it alone isn't really much like dust anymore. Pretty thick stuff now. But I'm not worried about that, it's the thread algae..


Here are a few click-able pics for the record. First the tank.



Then a view to some of the least infected plants, the hyrgo. Unfortunately for me, not a native.



A closer view of the same.



And finally a look at some Ludwigia. Unfortunately for me, wanting native plants, all my Ludwigia looks like this now - repens, glandulosa, ovalis, and brevepis.



I'm really bummed about the Ludwigia's. Not the repens, you can get that anywhere. But these others can be a bit tougher to get your hands on.

So since I've hit day 10 on the EI/Sticky plan, I'm gonna trim the tops of at least one stem of each of the less common Ludwigias, trim off infected leaves, give them a mild bleach dip, and put them in my 20g. I love some of these Ludwigia so much, I'm willing to risk losing that tank to retain these plants.


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## Betowess

Sorry to hear that about the EI. No red lines here. Maybe a virus? 
Goodluck with the tank and future changes. It sure has been a fun thread to follow.:thumbsup: regards, bob

EDIT: my bad on the red lines. I have some graphic functions turned off on this computer at home. Betowess 



Momotaro said:


> The administrator was trying to do some updating last night when the process went kaflooey! The underlining and some of the other problems are related to this "good update gone bad"!
> 
> Kyle is working hard on it and should have things back to normal soon enough. :icon_wink
> 
> Mike


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## bavarian3

While i havent followed this thread too much, after reading the last....20? pages, my question to you is why you havent simply taken this tank down and restarted?
It would be so easy to simply take the plants out, drain the water, add new plants, water, and viola. Tanks are so much easier to start without fish. 
EI has not given myself or anyone i know issues like this, and i put all 4 ho t5 bulbs to many hours of use throughout the day with no issues. 
Good luck with this tank, it looks quite nice even with the algae :/

-Charles


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## shuks

It looks to me like the leaves on the ludwigia is melting and allowing algae to grow all over it. I've had the same probem a while back and I can deffanitly say it was lack of nutreints. But who-knows, your tank seems to be deffying the laws of "planted tanks".. lol, jk. 

Just dont be affrade to dump thoes nutreince in there. I know I was more than a bit hessatent at first, but it was the best thing I've ever done. You might want to consider increasing dosing above sticky levels. You have ALOT of plant mass with very fast growing plants, They must be sucking thoes nutreints dry in no time. I dont have nearly the plantmass that you do, and I dose a little bit higher than sticky levels. I dont want to turn this into another fert debate, but here is what I found works best for me. 2 1/4 tsp kno3, 1 tsp k2so4, and +/- 4 ppm phosphate every week. 

I think its time you crank up the lights, so your plants can really start feeding on the nutreince in the water. Algae might be bad at first, but dont let it faze you. Keep going in the direction your going, dont turn back now.


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## Alight

Steve, I've been following your thread for almost a month now, hoping your experience could help my exact same problem (except I don't know about silicates, etc.).

For what it's worth, I've had exactly the same experience as you with the thread algae these last several weeks. Increasing macros and micros and CO2 definitely did not help the algae growth--made it worse.

The only thing that has slowed the growth was decreased light, and less ferts, no added micros for now (I guessed that recent plant tabs additions (well more than the recommended amounts)were leaking into the water column, causing too much of these and with the added micros, causing even more algae). 

BTW, if you want to make accurate nitrate and phosphate, or any colorometric test kit readings, make a stock solution of nitrate or phosphate using a good balance that is precisely 2-3 times the concentration you want your target to be. Then dilute to get exactly your target, and some other readings on either side (like 10 ppm NO3, 5 ppm NO3, 15 ppm NO3) and use extra tubes to measure all of these when you measure your tank or tap water. Then compare your tank water sample color to the color of these standards. You can get pretty precise this way. NO3 kits are way off on their colorimetric cards about 75% of the time--hit those scales every so often, but can change over the life of the kit, quite a bit.

The standards tubes are good for about 2 weeks, with the loss of use being due to both changes in your test kit, and changes in the colors of the standards.

I have found that I have been able to save plants from my algae infested tank by putting them in another tank (my bare bottom Discus grow out tank) just with plant weights around their roots to hold them down, and a bunch of otos and plecos to clean them off. In about 4-7 days, the plants are totally clean, and I can return them to the algae infested tank. In my tank, most of the bad algae is near the tops of the leaves, so as the algae has decreased with the reduced lighting, I have also been able to just take off the top leaves and the overall amount of algae is looking better and better. I have been going to max light (4.5 watts/gallon) for only 45 -60 minutes a day, staying at 2 watts/gallon for a total of 8 hours of light per day.

Al


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## gbhil

Steve -
Before you tear it all out and scour everything down, please give us a weeks worth of observations using high light with the fert schedule you're now running. I don't think this will 'fix' it, but it may be very interesting comparing the plant/algae growth between medium and high light.

I've also been pondering your water test results for a little bit here. Every time I think there may be an answer hidden in the data, I'm drawn back to the pristine condition of your smaller tank, using the same water. I eventually came to this crazy assumption -
Maybe this isn't 'regular' hair algae? I'm sure one of our resident botanists/plant physiologists would be willing to look at a sample. The obvious has all been checked, and rechecked. The less obvious has been checked and rechecked. It can't possibly hurt to check the outlandish at least a little bit.


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## briandmiles

Yeah, I've seen the red lines when I go to my PM page. As for those species of Ludwigia I'd gladly take some algae infested pieces off your hands so as not to put too much pressure on your local landfill.

Brian


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## scolley

Wow! Lots of input. Thanks folks.


*Betowess* - Thanks Bob. But it ain't over yet, though we may be nearing a conclusion.


*bavarian3* - Charles, I appreciate the well wishes. Sorry, but I've already explained why I'm doing this - not going back over that.

But I REALLY APPRECIATE the point about your using all 4 T5 HO bulbs all day. Thanks! I know you and LOTS of other people do that with no issues. But read over this thread and you will see lots of comments about all the light I'm pumping into the tank. And MAN, is that subject ever getting old.


*shuks* - my test kits (even if flawed) proved that this tank was not getting sucked dry of nutrients back when I was dosing FAR, FAR less than Sticky Levels. You have been an invaluable and insightful help in this process. Thanks! But I find the concept of this not being enough nutrients as silly. You are providing me information about how much you toss into your tank, apparently assuming that because it provides you with good results, that it has some bearing on what the plants actually need. When all it really means is you have found a level that appears to be "enough". You don't appear to have any quantitative knowledge of your uptake rates. 

Sorry, but I'm not about to consider adding more than a level that was designed to be guaranteed excess without some detail and reliable information about plant uptake requirements going beyond EI/Sticky Level. IMO that data does not exist, because such conditions do no exist.

I'd be really happy to be wrong about this. But I'll not concede until I see the data.

On the other hand, I think your suggestion regarding turning up the light is and interesting one, and will cover that in more detail later. Thanks!


*Alight* - Thanks for the tip on getting good readings out of the kits Al! Thanks, that makes a world of sense. And it does indeed sound like we have something similar. My worst algae is also near the top, so it is light related. But goodness knows it will fairly well thrive on low light if given nutrients. Thanks for the light tips. My lighting routine is very much like yours now, though a bit less, and still this crap is spreading.

But I may use your suggestion about letting fish in another tank clean stuff off. Thanks.


*gbhil* - First the 'regular' hair algae question... I'm inclined to assume that what is going on with me is normal. I'm not a big believer in coincidences. And for one of the most viewed threads on this forum to have the have the rare and fatal algae from hell, as opposed to this being a garden variety algae is a coincidence I'm not comfortable with. But I'll tell you what I am comfortable with...

I've been getting native plants from kind people all over the states (thanks folks!). And this algae is HELL on my native plants, but has been much less troublesome on my non-natives, and less troublesome on my native but less common plants like banana plants. I strongly suspect that this is an algae that has adapted in native waters to somehow take advantage of US native plants. This of course suggests it came in with a gift plant, but that comes with the territory.

As for the high light experiment, as also mentioned by Shuks, I'm gonna think about that for a day or so. As much as I'm sick about taking guff about having bright lights, anyone that has spent any time reading my detail posts with embedded spreadsheet details about the light I've run knows that I've not been running high light. 

So maybe I need to give high light a try... give those plants a chance to really crank!

I think this will make the algae really take off, but I'm getting so close to tearing it all down now, it might be worth a shot. I'll get back to everyone on this.


*briandmiles* - Brian, PM me your address, and if I tear this down, I'll send you algae infested plants. Free. But in return I want your commitment to send me algae free stems if (when!) I request them in the future. I'll pay postage each way. If you think this is fair send me a PM. Personally, if you think you can nurse some of these excellent specimens back to heath, then it sounds like a win/win to me!


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## Curare

Mate, My condolences, stripping a tank is a heartbreaking experience.


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## Alight

Steve, I forgot to mention that I don't believe that any errors in your test kit measurements had any effect on your algae situation. Just wanted you to know there is an easy way to be very confident about your measurements, without even having to bother your wife. 

Your algae looks exactly like the stuff I've got. I don't believe it is anything super exotic. 



> So maybe I need to give high light a try... give those plants a chance to really crank!
> 
> I think this will make the algae really take off, but I'm getting so close to tearing it all down now, it might be worth a shot. I'll get back to everyone on this.


It will cause a nice BIG algae bloom! Been there, done that. 

BTW, the lighting schedule I've come up with was based on reading your thread. Your thread has been the only thing that has helped. 

The plants most affected in my tank are the Red Temple, and the Hygrophilia Corombosa. The tops of the Amazon Swords are also badly affected. It may just be because these are closest to the light. These plants block out so much light that the under story does not have much algae, but I think that is would if it got as much light as yours does. Since I've reduce the light, the understory has thinned out quite a bit. Even though there's less green there, I sort of like being able to clean down to the gravel well again.

I've basically given up trying to solve the problem with balanced ferts, and am now going to try massive algae eaters. My grow out tank is clean of algae using them, low light, and absolutely now added ferts or CO2 at all, so why am I not just doing this same thing on my show tank? Stupid, I guess.

Al Light


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## Wasserpest

Did you follow through with the PO4 reduction before you went to EI? This seemed to yield the best improvement... Although not immediate eradication.

Looking at the test results, besides the PO4, the silicates could be an issue. So that could mean the substrate. Ouch.

I had a tank with awful hair alga growth. It was the tank where I had HD play sand in it. I took that out later (just siphoned out) and replaced with some flourite. The alga went away. However, I also went to a stricter dosing and better CO2, so not sure if it was all of it or part and which part.


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## shuks

> You are providing me information about how much you toss into your tank, apparently assuming that because it provides you with good results, that it has some bearing on what the plants actually need.


Dude, once you start seeing good results then you are supplying the plants with everything they need. If your plants look like crap and are melting then they obviously dont have everything they need. You've been batteling this thing since time began and have ruled out both light and co2 and just about anyother thing I can think of. If everything was there, your ludwigia would not be melting. 

Just because youve heard of some experianced people that dont dose very heavily, but have beautiful plants, dosent mean that every tank can do the same. You say, " But I find the concept of this not being enough nutrients as silly", but you obviously have no idea whats going wrong with your tank
so how can you say thats silly? 



> Sorry, but I'm not about to consider adding more than a level that was designed to be guaranteed excess without some detail and reliable information about plant uptake requirements going beyond EI/Sticky Level.


Thats a pretty ridiculose thing to say. EI/sticky levels arnt garenteed success what so ever! They are a guidline, and are by no means the magical solution to all problems. 

By the way, thoes sticky levels are ment to be for HIGH light co2 injected tanks. From what youve said, your tank is running low-medium light. Maybe thats the whole problem right there. You need to crank up the light to get your plants sucking up thoes nutreints faster. You shouldnt be dosing as much as the sticky tells you if your not running alot of light and are injecting co2. 

I've been in the exact sme place you were for over a year. My tank has looked worse than yours, as hard as you may fined that to believe. I know what worked for me and I'm just sharing my thoughts. I think your being pretty stubborn over the whole thing. You say that there is no scientific evedence that proves plants need that much nutreints, but there is no evedence to say that they dont. 

I'd say the underlying evedence is that ALOT of people have dosed what you consider "too much" with great success. If you want to test the limits of your plants uptake rates you need to be running high light! Otherwise stop dosing stiucky levels


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## Betowess

Shuks, everyone's water parms are different. There is no silver bullet dosing method, IMO. But I think you already know that too. It really might just be the silica in the sand here, and all is mute if there are other causes of this algae than too much, or too little light or the same re: dosing. Just my 2 cents.


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## bastalker

Wasserpest said:


> Did you follow through with the PO4 reduction before you went to EI? This seemed to yield the best improvement... Although not immediate eradication.
> 
> Looking at the test results, besides the PO4, the silicates could be an issue. So that could mean the substrate. Ouch.
> 
> I had a tank with awful hair alga growth. It was the tank where I had HD play sand in it. I took that out later (just siphoned out) and replaced with some flourite. The alga went away. However, I also went to a stricter dosing and better CO2, so not sure if it was all of it or part and which part.


I have had HD play sand for a couple a years, and I have had no problems. Granted I am replacin it with soil master in the next month or so when I get the 75G, but it is just a matter of feedin the plants an have em out compete the algae for food...

If ya got light feed em more... If ya dont feed em less. Crank the co2 so the plants are gonna use the EI yer given em...Algae is history.


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## bigstick120

Steve, I know you dont want to hear this but my vote is it has to be the lights. Your clearly feeding the plants if you are using the EI stickie recomendation. Maybe try raising them up a little. In those last photos it looks like they Hygro is being pushed down and twisting. Meaning that it is getting alot of light. It may just be the photo but it looks like that to me.


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## scolley

*Last Shot for EI/Sticky*

*IT ALWAYS SEEMS TO COME BACK TO LIGHT*

It's hard for me to respond here without the reader having a detail understanding of whats gone on in my tank with regard to light. Today I'm switching to what I regard as "High Light", even though I believe that it will throw the tank into algae creating overdrive. I believe I've covered all other reasonable options under EI/Sticky Levels.

The table below shows what the light has been, beginning with the light levels that shut the algae growth down. I moved from that to what I believed to be reasonable light for the start of the EI test, without pushing it - I did not want to blame EI on an algae explosion if I was drowning the tank in light. The next row, labeled "EI Initial -boosted", is the light increase I shifted to in response to a post from Craig suggesting slight periods of light spikes.










It was soon evident that this schedule as only growing algae, so I switched back to the 4th row schedule, a more moderate light schedule, for 5 days. All the EI schedules grew algae.

Now I find myself in the predicament that though I believe it will cause a huge algae spike, maybe I've not been driving enough light for EI to work. I thought the nutrient levels in EI would cause an explosion of algae, and it did not. I could well be wrong about this too, and I have nothing to lose by trying.

So the final row shows the lighting level I've moved to today.

In brief (repeated) explanation of the terms here, the "T12 Multiplier" is in reference to the additional efficiency a T5 HO has over a T12 - the additional light it throws per watt. Where the "Raw" WPG numbers show simple WPG, the "T12 Multiplier" number better reflect the actual light thrown out by a T5 HO bulb. Building on that, I've taken into account the additional efficiency of the Tek T5 reflectors over a normally reflected T12. I've guesstimated that as a 25% increase in light in the tank, yielding what I've called "Reflected T12". I'm fully aware that this is a thumb in the air estimate, but I don't know how we can discuss light quantities without some means of normalizing the values we use.

As you can hopefully see, this puts me on a 4 WPG average, peaking at 6.2 for an hour. But that is using my "Reflected T12" values. If we toss that out, and just use BlueRam/Shalu's T12 Multiplier, that comes down to a 3.2 WPG average and peak of 4.9 WPG. But the fact is, a Tek T5 is much better reflected than your average T12, so those numbers are too low - we just can't be sure how much higher they should be.


*PLANS MOVING FORWARD*

Well, if this light works, I'll stick with it of course. But if it doesn't I'm still not sure what I'll do. I've seen how to shut this stuff down (confirmed by Al Light - thanks Al!). And I think I can go further with a black out. My problem is that course of action could still mean a long battle with this stuff, eventually winning at the cost of repeatedly driving the nutrients out of the tank when this stuff starts to pop up. And I'm tired of battling - I'm not afraid of the fight, but it has drained all the joy out of this experience. 

There is a good chance that if this does not work, I'll sacrifice any chance of saying "I beat it!", in return for the joy of having a nice looking tank sooner. So tank scouring could start as soon as next weekend.



*RESPONSES*

*Curare *- thanks pal.

*Alight *- Thanks for your insights on your similar problem. Sounds like the same stuff. But I'm not sure I have the stomach for the long term battle. I'm developing an appetite for a quick fix. Good luck with yours.

*Wasserpest *- I did not drive all the PO4 out of the tank. Given uncertainties around actual levels (re: test kit inaccuracies), I decided to stop when I saw green spot algae (not previously present) begin to appear. I figured that was an indicator that I was driving the nutrients down to level where other algaes had an advantage, and going any lower was foolish. It seemed a good point to either start blackout, or feel confident that I had appropriately "reset" the tank for EI. An your HD Playsand/Hair algae experience seems to reflect what I've gathered about sand in peoples tanks. Often it works out fine. Sometimes it appears to be part of the problem.

*shuks *- I appreciate the feedback, but I'm not going to argue here in this thread. I'm happy to PM about it. Or if someone starts a thread on any of these topics, and I'm aware of it, I'll be happy to chime in. But as far as this thread is concerned, I'll just say "thank's for the feedback" - and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

*Betowess *- Bob, you've been saying "substrate" a long time. I may never know, but at the same time, I may be dumping that potentially "corrupted" substrate soon!

*bastalker *- Mark, we are going to find out about the light soon enough. And the CO2 is cranking. My methods of pH reading are inconsistent, so there is some uncertainty here - but either way CO2 is somewhere between 54 & 84 ppm. That darn well better be enough.

*bigstick120 *- As I described above, I'm gonna crank the lights to see what happens. As for your observation (a good one IMO) regarding the hygro growth indicating high light already - could be. Take a look at the charts above, and if they make sense, then let me know if you still think the light has been high. Thanks.


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## scolley

*Update to the plan*

In the interest of giving this last EI leg a decent shot, I had to ponder a dilemma. On one hand, I'm certain that my regular manual cleaning of plants actually made things much worse. On the other hand, I have to recognize that I have a tank that is virtually brimming over with algae.

So what to do? Start this last phase with all the algae in the tank, knowing that disturbing the plants will spread it? Or top off and trim any visibly, badly infected plants.


I trimmed all the badly infected plants - removing a huge amount of Ludwigia in particular. And then tossed on my HOT Magnum with the micron filter, in hopes of sucking up any nasties in the water column.​

I'll never really know if this was more "fair" to EI/Sticky, or put it at a disadvantage. Given the amount of Ludwigia I pulled out that was just mush, I suspect I helped it. Either way, I wanted to mention that I intervened like this, in the interest of full disclosure.


PS - Day one of high light has made it quite clear already that what I thought was almost two weeks of GSA was just the beginning.


----------



## Curare

Go geddem tiger!

Gsa isn't that much of a problem, and it's better than our good friend claude.

Either way, give the tank some time to settle before doing the unthinkable:S


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## scolley

*Course Committed Now!*

Just as an FYI - While my tank today was more bubbly than a freshly poured Gin and Tonic (high light will do that!), the disgusting level of algae forced my decision... I'll continue this test for a while. But that is what it is now, a test. No more, no less.

I've committed to my order of substrate for the next tank. So this one is about to be history. We are just observing and recording results now. Any plans for the future are in a new, freshly scrubbed tank.

Anybody want 3 really nice adult male Sailfin Mollies (one jumped out of the tank), and 1 adult male Flag Fish (that thinks it's a Sailfin Molly)? PM me if so. I figure I'm keeping the Rainbow darters (that didn't die after all - they were just hiding!). They are just too full of personality to let go easily (and did I mention expensive?).

Capturing the Amanos that are left is gonna be a bear, but they'll have fun in my grow out tank.

So look for updates and pictures as the last of the EI/Sticky Level test continues. I'll record accurately and honestly. But I've had it with this algae. This tank is going down.


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## JenThePlantGeek

I haven't followed this thread too much, but one thing about this last post did catch my eye. Rainbow darters eh? Did you know they are a native US fish?? I pulled out a dozen of them from a creek down the road in February when they had their spawning colors on. We also found some greenside darters, rainbow daces, red bellied daces, and a ton of other fantastic fish. If you ever want more natives, put on the hip waders and see what you can find. If you don't have luck, let me know and I can send you some for the cost of shipping (when the water level goes down - we've been having spring thunderstorms!!!).










Action shot!


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## JenThePlantGeek

Some of the fish:


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## Ktulu_JL

Steve, I want to congradulate your work on this setup. Most people go into hiding, yet you seem to have a gathering by your algae!!  I finally got caught back up tonight on your thread.

I have no suggestions for you. It sounds like everyone has some. So I figured I would just add some raw data, instead of experience and/or crazy suggestions:


Possible allelopathy. Your string algae has to be releasing something, or it would die naturally before flourishing as it has been observed. If this guess holds any weight, this might be retarding growth of the higher up plants to some point.
Phosphates - They are the terrorist. If you look up recipies for breeding various lower level algae (not macro) forms, they always start out with a healthy dose of phosphates.
Plant swap control method - Take a healthy fast growing stem from your healthy tank, that has its reserves full of nutrients, and is not being attacked by what-not, and place it into a clearing in your bad tank. Observe that plant each day to see how long it can fend off the bad stuff. You can use this as a control while conducting other mad-scientist types of experiments, it is a form of control over the rest of the experiment(s).
Root Tabs - Are they still in use? If so, I don't think direct substrate ferts are a good idea on a tank you don't have control over. TomBarr says stuff like this from time to time, in his carefull, yet informative sort of way.
Frequent Dosing and Autodosing - This is a very conveinent thing to have in the long run. However, plants seem to absorb and store, where lower (non-macro) algae needs this stuff all the time, and can respond much faster than plants.
A reduction, or a slow of growth in your algae is a die-off. Die-offs release the entire contents of their "immune system" as they decay. Perhaps some experiements did not take into account the die-off duration and release.
Lighting, CO2, and Silicates: This can be a problem for you, however, I would think we would see a lot more published articles, and/or questions on forums if this is really the case.

Thanks for spending so much time sharing on PlantedTank!!!!


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## mecgeorgeneo

im sorry to hear your tanks going down scolley  but i guess sometimes its just better to start from scratch. it takes a big person to face up to that. but perhaps it'll turn out better this next time. i'm having weird phosphate issues for reasons i havent quite figured out yet. its at 10 ppm if the test kit is correct but nothings died and it should've at that level. only sign was the macandra and glandulosa. my bf suggested taking down my tank but i'm still hesitant. i might just end up in your shoes if this continues *sigh* 

wow jen! thats awesome that you can find fish in the nearby creek. that green one looks awesome. any problems acclimating from natural to captive? how big are those fish?


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## Bert H

Well, I guess this book comes to a close, huh? Steve, you've fought a hell of a fight.roud: You've stuck it out a lot longer than I would have. What is the future substrate of this tank going to be? Hey, the offer stands for some plants whenever you're ready for them, just drop me a pm a couple of weeks prior so I don't toss clippings. So will you start a brand new thread titled 'Big Clear Kahuma - part 2'?


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## scolley

*Jen *- Those are some great looking darters you have there! I've got them because of their being native. And it's amazing that you can just pull them out of a local stream so easily. I trust you are making sure you are not taking any of the many endangered species?

You should take a look at the prices people charge for nice looking darters on the web! The nice ones command a premium - too bad we don't have them locally. Thanks for sharing the pics!


*Ktulu_JL* - Very insightful post. Thanks.

Allelopathy? - Certainly possible.

Phosphates? I've already confirmed to my satisfaction that they are a principal driver to this blight. That is also why I've always believed that EI/Sticky Levels could never do anything but make things worse, given the recommended phosphate levels. And unless this high-light test swings things around, the suspicion will look to be pretty positively confirmed very soon.

Plant swap control method - good idea. But I'm through experimenting. I want a nice tank now.

Root Tabs? - Stuck some in when I set up the tank last July/August. And then in early October. Interesting question. I'll need to go back over my records to see if there is any correlation with the algae.

Frequent Dosing and Autodosing - absolutely brilliant observation IMO! I'm not too patient with people's distrust of autodosing when it is over fears of lack of consistency or precision (NOT! - it's quite the opposite). You have tackled the exact opposite, and completely appropriate question - what if the consistency and precision itself can be a causal factor? Implying that variations in nutrient density might actually trigger nutrient storage. Brilliant insight! At the very least, based on this suspicion, I will be changing my future autodosing schedules to alternate days and even have marginal variations across dosages, though making the weekly dose total the appropriate amount, and of course keeping things within an understood range.
Brilliant!

die-off - great point too! But unfortunately in a situation where culprit could be many possible things, I was not willing to provide the luxury of time necessary to see if a long-haul continuation of any given course of action would have ultimately been successful. IMO, if I cut back the PO4 and micros right now, I think it will ultimately kill this stuff. But I don't want to wait. And I do not want to risk losing 6-8 weeks finding out that I was wrong.

Lighting, CO2, and Silicates - It's not about the light. This stuff thrives as long as it gets any light at all. And does not explode when it gets more than it wants. My CO2 is fine. Too much if anything. The only reason why I'm not inclined to agree about silicates is that I do have a significant excess of silicates in my tank, and my tap - and I'm not a big believer in coincidences. Also, I've gotten communication from other people, and have read other experiences, where this stuff where silicone is implicated, though not proven. This could be a myth that is perpetuated, and never abandoned because it is never debunked. But I can't ignore my high silicates. So I'm not willing to state that I don't believe it is a factor. IMO I could be. But I know I don't know. 


*mecgeorgeneo *- Sorry about your problem. If you don't want to tear down, just keep removing those phosphates (like with Phosban) and see if you can get it to stop growing. It could be the beginning of a die-off.


*Bert *- Thanks pal! You've been a big help in this whole process! Thank you. I've still got that last batch you sent me BTW - it's safely floating and growing on the surface of my 20g.

I'm not gonna post about the new tank. Not substrate, not fish, not plants, not scape. Not till it is up, running, and healthy - then I will indeed start as "Son of Kahuna" or something.

In the interim, I'm happy to pm about stuff. And will certainly be popping up in problems specific threads - I'm sure the new tank won't be problem free. But boy will it be a relief - I'm sure.


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## medicineman

Scolley, 

I find that the last resort for a stubborn problem is eventually tearing up the whole tank and start anew with something different (I did this several times on all of my tanks and the ultimate problem turns out to be my substrate!) Hell still I cannot get rid of those pesky thread algae out of my moss  

Start up with a heavy and good substrate the size of 3-4mm. Smaller ones will just clog you up in time and create anaerobic areas. Light ones will be a PITA to work on as they will not anchor down nicely. So what kind of substrate you are interested in?

Perhaps you should work on your next setup as a medium light tank and gradually transforming it into a high light tank. That way things will get more managable as the tank matures with minimal algae and ready to go full throttle again. Now I always start up with less light and less period and gradually go to normal routine in time. Say start with 7 hours a day and add in up to 10 hours after cycling. And not to forget lots of CO2 since the beginning.

Any sneak peek of future plans like what kind of tank and what kind of setup?


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## JenThePlantGeek

If I remember right, rainbows and greensides aren't endangered. In fact, the man leading the collecting trip took one of the better pairs of greensides home with him and they spawned for him the very next day! 

I haven't had any trouble at all acclaimating these guys to aquarium life. In fact, I think they are much hardier than most of the tropicals. They are perfectly suited to my tap water AND they don't need a heater. Bonus!


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## PJAN

Hey Steve,

Took me hours to catch up.
I digged in my files to see if I can contribute something usefull.

At least I've found some old pictures wich will make you smile and think "that guy has a real serious problem, I'm actually ok".

Bottom line was :
- wrong wood used (decay)
- wrong substrate : sand was used. Silicates were a problem, but also the lack of a good substrate for bacteria.
I now use only substrate like 2 -3 mm gravel and not sand anymore.
Of course eco-complete can do also, but I'm not a fan of sand ( 1 mm or smaller) in a planted tank with fish.



medicineman said:


> Scolley,
> 
> Start up with a heavy and good substrate the size of 3-4mm. Smaller ones will just clog you up in time and create anaerobic areas. Light ones will be a PITA to work on as they will not anchor down nicely. So what kind of substrate you are interested in?
> 
> Perhaps you should work on your next setup as a medium light tank and gradually transforming it into a high light tank. That way things will get more managable as the tank matures with minimal algae and ready to go full throttle again. Now I always start up with less light and less period and gradually go to normal routine in time. Say start with 7 hours a day and add in up to 10 hours after cycling. And not to forget lots of CO2 since the beginning.


And what Medicineman suggests, is actually what I'm doing also.
6 weeks slow, just start things up with only a few fish and let things cycle under low light with enough CO2.

Gr. PJAN


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## shuks

> Phosphates - They are the terrorist. If you look up recipies for breeding various lower level algae (not macro) forms, they always start out with a healthy dose of phosphates.


Seems like phosphates are getting a bad name. In my tank high phosphates levels are essential in keeping algae at bay. If I go under 2 ppm phosphate, **** starts going bad really fast. I like to keep phosphate levels at 3 or 4 ppm. Obviously more than that would probably cause problems just as bad. I fines one flaw in the sticky levels is the amount od phosphate. I think its too high. I only dose about half the amount of phosphate that sticky levels say. Somehow my tank water alwayse has more phosphate than I dose, I dont know where it comes from, but if I doesd phosphate according to sticky levels I would have a big problem. I think the trick is not to limit the phosphate, but just make sure it doesnt get to high. 



good luck with the re-start steve!


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## Ktulu_JL

Steve, my whole point of my post was just my personal reflection on this experiment as a whole. I have been following this thread since the beginning. Like I said previously, it is what got me to sign up on PT. This almost feels like a tank in my house due to your timely and reliable text descriptions of, and ups-n-downs.

I wanted to re-reflect some things real quick:


Alleophathy - This my thing, don't waste time on it. I have been pursuing this for a long time. The learning curve is jynormous until you get to the plateu that I am pursuing. I am a long ways away...

Phosphates - Maybe next time, bottom them out. Everyone seems to chime in, and say that they do this or that. I bottom out phosphates just to get things under control. Then I go EI type levels. I don't see how you can't keep phosphates bottomed out for a long time. I have not seen ill effects. I would like someone to prove this method wrong in a scientific manner. Low Phosphates means smaller leaves. Plants can still grow off of trace ammounts of the "P".

Chloride - This is an area that I would like your reflections... I haven't even entered this stage yet. Are you sure your water changes are working like you had planned? I wonder what my chloride levels are at...? What are you treating your water/and/or/tank with?

Eco Complete and Silica Sand - In the same tank... I never even considered this, until the recent feedback that you received. I have had to spend a large ammount of time controlling both substrate types. Until tonight, I never even considered what both types 50/50 in a single 75 gallon would be like to deal with... holy cow!

Autodosing - Longer dose duration and less often until things stabalize. You already see this as an advantage. Not going any further....

Devils Advocate - Not bottoming NO3 out, I would like to hear the flip-side of trying to trash a perfectly healthy and established tank, and determining what it would take to get to the "thread micro algae" to take over a tank. I would think that it would take an extreme ammount of effort and/or neglect. This would be the opposite of your journal...
Please add your thoughts if you have time.... thanks much


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## mrbelvedere

shuks said:


> Seems like phosphates are getting a bad name. In my tank high phosphates levels are essential in keeping algae at bay. If I go under 2 ppm phosphate, **** starts going bad really fast. I like to keep phosphate levels at 3 or 4 ppm. Obviously more than that would probably cause problems just as bad. I fines one flaw in the sticky levels is the amount od phosphate. I think its too high. I only dose about half the amount of phosphate that sticky levels say. Somehow my tank water alwayse has more phosphate than I dose, I dont know where it comes from, but if I doesd phosphate according to sticky levels I would have a big problem. I think the trick is not to limit the phosphate, but just make sure it doesnt get to high.
> 
> 
> 
> good luck with the re-start steve!


Dude I know! I totally overdose phosphates. Plants go nuts with foliage. I think before a photograph is taken, you should dose phosphates really high....the plants just look healthier. And phosphates with micros is always getting a bad rap too. That's the only way I dose, but hey, YMMV.


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## Betowess

Wow, PJAN'S back! Stick around pal. Can't wait to see your next project, as well as Steve's! Re: phosphates, I have found that Blyxa can be a handy guage for PO4 levels. If its over 1-2 ppm, they will produce those nice little white buds pretty quickly.


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## scolley

*Flash - I've been an idiot!*

I'd love to respond to all these posts - great stuff from you guys - thanks. 
But I'm a bit self absorbed in what's going on with the tank at the moment. Sorry...



*UPDATE*
Well, the High Light EI/Sticky Levels was not working. The tank was going to heck in a hand-basket. I took pictures Friday afternoon, to show what it looked like on the 5th day of that regimen, then proceeded to tear the tank down.



*FLASH - WHAT AN IDIOT!*
For so very long, so many people have chimed in with a common theme - everything seems right - it's difficult to see how things could be so wrong. Well, digging out the old substrate today I found it - the thing that could well have been the root of all my problems. The thing that may have destroyed a tank, and wasted nine months of detailed, agonizing diagnosis.

I was aghast when I found it. And could kill myself because I remember putting it there. I'll never know for sure if it was the root of my problem. But I'll always suspect it was. What an idiot I was!

I've got a lot of preparations for a big day tomorrow, so I don't have time to go into it now. But tomorrow night I'll take a pic of what I found, with the whole stupid story of how it got there.

Boy, my choice of a chimp as an avatar was _oh so _appropriate!


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## lumpyfunk

scolley said:


> I've got a lot of preparations for a big day tomorrow, so I don't have time to go into it now. But tomorrow night I'll take a pic of what I found, with the whole stupid story of how it got there.
> 
> Boy, my choice of a chimp as an avatar was _oh so _appropriate!


Steve, You just LOOOVE to keep us hanging don't you.   you got me racking my brain to think what it might have been. . .I may just have to look over the first couple pages. . . 

Well It wasn't a banana I assume


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## donaldbyrd

I don't know, my vote is for a banana skin...Scolley I love your threads very entertaining and educational all at the same time.


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## Lorenceo

Don't tell us what you found will you? :hihi:
Looking forward to finding out what caused so much grief.
Was it another alien budda piece?


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## mecgeorgeneo

i think thats what keeps us coming back to this post... the agony of waiting for the answers!!! and ya know all the other interesting stuff  haha


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## scolley

*The culprit photo*

Sorry for stringing you along.... :hihi: 

I figure if I've got to look like a jackass in front of so many people, I may as well try to get a little fun out of it.:icon_wink Here's a picture of the culprit.










Now I really am in an a major rush, but will tell all tonight! But maybe you can figure it out...


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## Martin

an ashtray?

it looks a bit...corroded...but why would glass corrode..?


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## RoseHawke

Well, _I'm_ confused! Waiting with "baited" breath (pun intended  ) for the explanation.


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## Alight

So it is glass? And it is corroded? Is this the source of the silicates? 
Wish I had one in my tank to explain my problems!


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## bigstick120

#1 why would that be in your tank!
#2 what the hell is it???? or is it part of the biotope.... liter


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## endparenthesis

Looks like the cover on a sink faucet that might have fallen into a bucket that got poured into the tank, but I don't know why you'd put it there intentionally.


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## Wasserpest

Ashtrays as major part of a tank setup can cause problems. :hihi:


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## gbhil

Maybe Mr. Piggy needed a smoke after a big meal of Amano shrimp?

My guess is Steve used it to deflect the water when initially filling the tank.


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## Betowess

Steve, If you ever get tired of your day job, I think you'd be a hell of a mystery writer. Glass what? Your killing us. Glass doesn't rust. I don't get it. LOL


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## turtlehead

Hmm... maybe a glass ashtray with metal lining? only the rim is rusted and the middle glass part isn't. Quite a mystery....


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## Barbels

Fish aren't supposed to smoke, they're supposed to drink.


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## scolley

*Mystery revealed...*

I must say, you guys _are good at guessing_! But here is the story...


*HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?*
When I was setting up the tank, you may recall that I started with an angled path of silica sand in the middle and across the front of the tank. I had watched the AGA Convention video of Amano doing it. He made it look easy. I tried to use his technique of placing poster board, braced between the substrate and the sand, as you slowly add both to the tank, the poster board keeping the two substrates separate. But he used dry Aquasoil where I used wet Eco-Complete, and was starting to have a soggy cardboard mess, bracing rocks sliding around on the wet bottom... when I yelled to my son, "Quick! Get me something heavy to brace this cardboard! Anything heavy. Just FAST please!"

So all kind of stuff quickly got tossed in to brace up the cardboard as I raced to fill in the rest of the substrate before the cardboard turned to mush. Including the "problem item".

Once the substrate was in, the cardboard was gently removed. Then began the digging in the substrate to get all the bracing stuff out. Fortunately that was primarily large rocks.


*BUT WHAT WAS IT?*
But I had stupidly used a stack of glass drink coasters my son had handed me as I panicked for "anything heavy". And clearly one did not get removed. Normally a _glass drink coaster_ should not matter much. But these were special. 

These were my wifes "good" coasters, the fancy ones with the _Stirling silver_ ring around the top. 

Ooops. :icon_eek: 


*SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?*
The silver is pretty corroded now. A ruined coaster to be sure (BTW - the wife is really, really happy about this little discovery too.). It is pitted where the silver somehow reacted with the substrate, or something in the water, and started breaking down.

One quick Google on "Silver Toxicity Plants" yields a some pretty credible indicators that I may well have created a pretty toxic situation. I'm lucky I didn't kill all the fish. And it could explain some of my major shrimp die-offs. First ghost, then Amanos. And I do not have a single olive nerite snail left either - even though I've still got loads of them in my 20g.

Apparently silver is also toxic to bacteria in soil. The beneficial kind. Again, a problem.

So I can't say for sure that a silver coated coaster is the root of all my problems. But it could explain some deaths, and the lack of vigor in my plants. And that in itself could possibly explain how you can have a tank chock full of growing plants, but still have an algae kicking it's butt.


Well, there you have it. I'd be really curious what you folks think.


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## bavarian3

Welll oh well, put it behind you. 
Start a new tank and do it right this time 
I think youll do great this time from all this experience, good luck and looking forward to seeing a new scape from this tank!

-Charles


----------



## Martin

Are you going to go biotope again? 

Would be grand to see your mind's work succeed!!!

I vote 'YES' to more darters, Cypress knees, and ecotope plants....


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## Betowess

This story is like finishing a Greg Bear sci-fi novel. Its over, but you still want more.


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## gbhil

Symbiot said:


> Are you going to go biotope again?
> 
> Would be grand to see your mind's work succeed!!!
> 
> I vote 'YES' to more darters, Cypress knees, and ecotope plants....


Agreed. 

You simply MUST recreate the tank sans the coaster to prove your theory!


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## scolley

*It's almost over... but not quite*

*What's up right now?*
The tank is empty, plumbing taken apart. Every thing is being cleaned and will be reassembled to run first water and bleach, then water and peroxide, to get this tank clean.

I think I may have really hosed myself with that silver coaster. But I can't be sure, and after what I've been through, I'm not taking any chances.


*What's left for this thread?*
I took pictures of the final moments of the tank. It was pretty scary, and was the thing that just pushed me over the edge. I suspect that eliminating phosphates, maybe blackout, would have killed most of this stuff. And maybe of couple of cycles of that may have fixed if from me - growth retarding by my wifes silver coaster or not.

So I've still got to post my conclusions of the EI/Sticky Level test, with pics. Even though I know that that test, and everything else we all spent so much time on is now questionable due to that d*mn coaster. Sorry about the folks. There's nothing else I can say.

And I've still got to wrap this up with a post on my lessons learned.


*What's up with the next tank/thread?*
I know that this is going to disappoint some people, but the original biotope idea is dead. It was just too hard. I started building the big clear Kahuna about a year ago, creating something way to hard. And put an excessively complicated whiz-bang set of equipment under it. Then I chose way too difficult an aquascape. And then got hell's own algae.

I've had it with hard. I need a break. The next aquascape will be pleasant to look at, and easy to maintain. Maybe I'll try for something really special in a year or so.

So as I shut down my contributions to this thread soon, please don't anticipate my starting a new one on this next aquascape. I need a break from posting too. I want to revert back to plain old quiet PT member for a while. But I will take progress pics. And once the tank gets its legs, I'll post it.

FWIW - I'm gonna be simplifying my setup too. I've given excessive automation a shot, and it's hard to get working right. So I expect it'll still be a whiz-bang setup, but it'll be less complex, and hopefully more reliable and manageable.


I'll start winding stuff up soon.


*PS *- I sent some plants to another really brave PT member. If he doesn't have any problem with this stuff, then it will appear to not be the algae from hell after all, but something with my tank - like silver coasters. It will be a final, good test.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

well steve, it was a good run while it lasted. we sure did get some good thinkers to come out of the wood work on this one. hopefully it can be used as a referance for future problems concerning algae and it is a shame to see the tank will be no more. it was one of my favorites on the board here. still almost makes me want to go back to the natives


----------



## BlueRam

So tearing the bugger down... Ever though of using pella? I can send a good sized chunk USPS when you need it. Also don't give up on the biotope. If you live where you say you do and travel as much as you hint at, stop by "bait shops" and do a little collecting. 



scolley said:


> Boy, my choice of a chimp as an avatar was _oh so _appropriate!


I think "ape in the man suit."


----------



## TAM

:frown: Now we'll never *know* what was valid in all the testing you've done. Here I thought at least we're all learning tons of stuff from Steve's adventure. Instead, I know I've learned from your tenacity, courage and willingness to share that this [email protected]#$%^&*$#! hobby can get the best of meticulous individuals as well as us "less strict" folk. :smile: 

Steve, thank you for this and your other threads. They are always like visiting friends... where they know my name.

TAM

p.s. Don't wait too long for *Episode II: Big Clear Kahuna, Scolley's Swag*.


----------



## Curare

Aw mate, that's something that i'd have been kicking myself over, but only becuase I know that I'd do something similar in my tanks.

heheh actually, that is interesting because at one time, my housemate put a small "healing" quartz crystal in my 10 gallon (before it got decemated)
it's still in there. somewhere :|

I think starting off simple is not a bad idea, but if you're anything like me, it will evolve and adapt to your growing confidence, and pretty soon it'll be all whizz bang again.

Like the russians say, the first pancake is always lumpy.


----------



## RoseHawke

Steve, sorry to hear it. We've actually got something in common in a couple of ways, Starting out way too complex to begin with and just making it too d*mn hard. 

An allegory of a sort: I put a floor outlet in my living room a couple of weeks ago. Too cool! I can lie on the couch and have enough light to read! But, I just had a "make-do" table to hold a lamp. The great search for a Chippendale, nicely carved ball and claw, dark finish end table commences. About a dozen antique malls and half that many furniture shops later, I come to the conclusion that there simply is not what I have in my mind's eye to be had in Birmingham. 

Sooooo, maybe I'll just darn well _make_ one. I could do it! Oh, yeah :icon_roll . . . By the time I turned out a table that was actually what I wanted I could probably have paid a master craftsman to fabricate a custom table for me in one tenth the time.

But, not wanting to pay museum quality prices, I settled for something not quite what was in my "mind's eye" but which I *really *like a lot.

They (went ahead and got a matching cocktail table too,) were on sale also  which made them even *better *in my opinon.

Moral of the story is, you may not be able to actually get that brass ring, but the next ring down the line? That one may be gold.

Good luck!


----------



## mecgeorgeneo

wow, thats mind numbing... to think that a coaster had some part in that. thats a good lesson i'll remember, dont put anything metal in the tank. looking forward to the next tank


----------



## triple red

scolley i like your sig "right now im just a shmuck"
you definitely need to take a break......but we all want ya to come back.....so dont take too long of one


----------



## lumpyfunk

*Thanks and some numerical support*

Steve,

There is a very large part of me that is saddened by the end of this journey. It is bittersweet, I completely understand you needing to take a step back and relaxing, which you defiantly deserve.

I would like to extend my personal thanks for your tireless contributions to the hobby through the building of the big clear kahuna and this thread. I know that I am one of the many many people who have gained a better understanding of the hobby by following your work. If you ever doubted it, here are some numbers for this journal to back it up.

To date you have a 4.55 thread rating with 54 votes (the most votes that I could find on the board) Most threads with a star rating have one or 2 votes, the ones that have a lot of votes might break 10

1,168 replies the most of any thread I could find!

79,787 Views (the second highest number of views) over 360 days! that is 21.63 people a DAY!! 
The thread with the most view has 10,702 over 3 years and 2 months 

Thank you for your contributions!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:


----------



## jimjimson

via con Dios. :thumbsup:


----------



## plantbrain

scolley said:


> *What's up right now?* And put an excessively complicated whiz-bang set of equipment under it. Then I chose way too difficult an aquascape. And then got hell's own algae.
> 
> FWIW - I'm gonna be simplifying my setup too. I've given excessive automation a shot, and it's hard to get working right. So I expect it'll still be a whiz-bang setup, but it'll be less complex, and hopefully more reliable and manageable.


A wise idea.
Oliver, myself, Amano, Jeff, most folks => KISS.
You can be high tech, have nice substrate, nice lighting, nice equipment, tanks, etc still..........just make it simple.

I don't rely on pH controllers and have used them over the years.
I'm not the only one that perfers not to use them either.......
I typically have 3 things plugged in, a CO2 system, lights, a filter.
Not much else, a heater maybe...

6 T5's is a lot of light, 4 would be the most I'd consider for the tank's layout and 2 would have done it fine.

I think you did not use enough stem plants in the rear.
I also think that bad CO2 issue really taught you, and perhaps others about the complacency surrounding your own assumptions/abilities and reliance on "test".

These are very useful things to have learned, even if they where the "hard way".

Once you have a real serious CO2 issue and don't correct it very agressively, you have issues for a long time. Namely the green algae.

I've set up a nice 150 gal last weekend.
I used 3 Eheim cycled filters, CO2, a lot of it, lots of easy to grow stems and Crypts, tons of wood, low light, about 1.8-2w/gal. EI dosing light(about 1/2 the normal amounts with the low light). I used 10 bags of ADA Aqua soil. The plants grew already a fair amount by today.

Water was perfectly clear, a little surface film.
100+ Amano shrimp will go in next.
Water change every week 40-50%.

Approaching it from the concept of many "little hammers" beating on the algae and helping the plants grow better is a wise method.

So is a good start up.

So this time, make sure to crank the CO2 from the start, prep your filter prior if possible(Add mulm/add NH4 to a bucket and run the filter in that for 2 weeks prior etc,. whatever you want), pack the tank to the gills with plants, relax on the lighting, dose liberally from the start and do large water changes. The EC seems like it caused you a lot of issues for this scape. I'd suggest giving the ADA AS a try. Add CO2 during the day only, try using the mist and good current. Add plenty of algae eaters after a few days. 

Do everything to make sure things do well.
Do things safe, not assuming the test ktis are never wrong/without fail.

You can phase some plants out later and work in the ones you want later also. 

Many folks chase pie in the sky when it comes to algae(I was no different, most go throuhg this phase in the hobby), but they all return the basics at the end of the day.

Your vision is not too hard, but you can always try it again later and do the things right from day one and it can still happen.

Never give up, never surrender.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## nornicle

ditto what the guy said above me

from the beginning till now i've been lurking and watching the massive 'tech' tirades going on in this forum, when we should just have gone back to KISS.

lights, nutrients in the water column, co2. thats the basics of plant keeping. (edit: okay im slightly wrong here, but root based plants arent a real issue in a startup)

They are also the only possible causes of algae. so you either had too much light. too much nutrients or too much co2. You don't need to be specific, just start by limiting one of the three and see how you go... thats how I first worked out my first 'high light' system with 0 testing done. I used to tell people I tested the water by tasting it...

if that means filling half the tank with Hygro and not dosing ferts for a week, or taking 1 tube of light out, or reducing co2 or increasing it... in the end its a simple balance. its a triangle. not specific levels or micro or macro nutrients (which are important for healthy green leaves, but not really necessary in huge dosing amounts for a start up full of stem plants to grow)


----------



## Brex

About the silver coaster, check this out: http://www.samsung.com/silvercare/index.htm
Samsung uses silver ions in their washing machines to kill bacteria, similar to bleach. So that certainly could have been a problem. In any case, it doesn't matter now.



lumpyfunk said:


> I would like to extend my personal thanks for your tireless contributions to the hobby through the building of the big clear kahuna and this thread. I know that I am one of the many many people who have gained a better understanding of the hobby by following your work.


I feel exactly the same way. I have really enjoyed reading this thread daily, so I will miss the updates. I hope that you don't stay away too long.

The reason I decided to set up a planted tank was to have a relaxing hobby. My work is usually pretty analytical and stressful, for the most part the opposite of relaxing. So even though this hobby can be pretty technical, I have tried to keep things simple and just enjoy watching happy plants and happy fish. I hope that your reincarnated "big clear kahuna" will help bring you more enjoyment than the current tank, and not feel like work anymore. Good luck.


----------



## scolley

*Open Letter to You*

It would be very hard to respond appropriately to all the wonderfully kind and helpful things said here. I know I need to post my EI/Sticky results and pics. And after a lot of reflection I'm going to have to post Lessons Learned.

But until that time I would like to offer this open letter to each of you -


----------



## fresh_lynny

well put!

I am 6 weeks into my new 90 gal and that is exactly what I did thanks to subscribing to this and Tom Barr's site. I have learned so much. I did make it work with Eco no problem, there is just that KH spike in the first week or so, other than that no problems. I don't meant to hijack this thread, but one quick question regarding prepping the filter as you said. I didn't do that, I cycled with wood and heavily planted fast growing stems and fish, but my question is, now that the one is established, if I add another one, should I run it in the mulm and NH4 in a bucket for a few weeks? Or is my more established one enough for the new auxillary one to run?


plantbrain said:


> A wise idea.
> Oliver, myself, Amano, Jeff, most folks => KISS.
> You can be high tech, have nice substrate, nice lighting, nice equipment, tanks, etc still..........just make it simple.
> 
> I don't rely on pH controllers and have used them over the years.
> I'm not the only one that perfers not to use them either.......
> I typically have 3 things plugged in, a CO2 system, lights, a filter.
> Not much else, a heater maybe...
> 
> 6 T5's is a lot of light, 4 would be the most I'd consider for the tank's layout and 2 would have done it fine.
> 
> I think you did not use enough stem plants in the rear.
> I also think that bad CO2 issue really taught you, and perhaps others about the complacency surrounding your own assumptions/abilities and reliance on "test".
> 
> These are very useful things to have learned, even if they where the "hard way".
> 
> Once you have a real serious CO2 issue and don't correct it very agressively, you have issues for a long time. Namely the green algae.
> 
> I've set up a nice 150 gal last weekend.
> I used 3 Eheim cycled filters, CO2, a lot of it, lots of easy to grow stems and Crypts, tons of wood, low light, about 1.8-2w/gal. EI dosing light(about 1/2 the normal amounts with the low light). I used 10 bags of ADA Aqua soil. The plants grew already a fair amount by today.
> 
> Water was perfectly clear, a little surface film.
> 100+ Amano shrimp will go in next.
> Water change every week 40-50%.
> 
> Approaching it from the concept of many "little hammers" beating on the algae and helping the plants grow better is a wise method.
> 
> So is a good start up.
> 
> So this time, make sure to crank the CO2 from the start, prep your filter prior if possible(Add mulm/add NH4 to a bucket and run the filter in that for 2 weeks prior etc,. whatever you want), pack the tank to the gills with plants, relax on the lighting, dose liberally from the start and do large water changes. The EC seems like it caused you a lot of issues for this scape. I'd suggest giving the ADA AS a try. Add CO2 during the day only, try using the mist and good current. Add plenty of algae eaters after a few days.
> 
> Do everything to make sure things do well.
> Do things safe, not assuming the test ktis are never wrong/without fail.
> 
> You can phase some plants out later and work in the ones you want later also.
> 
> Many folks chase pie in the sky when it comes to algae(I was no different, most go throuhg this phase in the hobby), but they all return the basics at the end of the day.
> 
> Your vision is not too hard, but you can always try it again later and do the things right from day one and it can still happen.
> 
> Never give up, never surrender.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


----------



## fresh_lynny

scolley said:


> It would be very hard to respond appropriately to all the wonderfully kind and helpful things said here. I know I need to post my EI/Sticky results and pics. And after a lot of reflection I'm going to have to post Lessons Learned.
> 
> But until that time I would like to offer this open letter to each of you -



I can't wait to see then next one, Scolley!~~~


----------



## Bert H

Boy, I go out of town for a couple of days and miss the conclusion!  Wow! You've earned your rest Steve. Kick back with a couple of cold ones and enjoy your new creation when you set it up. I will look forward to seeing it when you decide to post it. Thanks for letting the rest of us ride that roller coaster! :thumbsup:.


----------



## bpm2000

This is, like, the greatest planted tank thread I've ever read.


----------



## bastalker

Cya in your next thread!!!roud:


----------



## plantbrain

Or the longest...........

Folks go through stages, they believe everything you tell them first, then disbelieve things you tell them, then figure out you were right all along

Things go full circle and repeat and you will see the same patterns Steve experienced throughout this hobby.

Main thing is to realize and *help folks avoid these same mistakes*.
It's good to learn through experience..........as long as it's not your own.

I get crotchery(or at least more than normal) when I see folks that I know have gone through bad issues and have solved them but fail to mention the rest of the story that started their issue in the first place to a newbie.

I have no idea how many times I've said and shown low NO3 causes a good chance of BGA outbreaks and many folks fail to suggest adding KNO3, instead going for the easy out, pills.

Give them help abd offer longer term solutions.
Algae grows for defined reasons, and what do you know? So do plants.

So a holistic approach that goes after each part and really looks at it, then maintains it over time is the best way to do this.

You do not have to be a high tech person, lots of test kits, micromanage, stress, etc.

You can be quite simple and observe the plants.
You can use CO2 or not.
You can have cheapy tanks/lights etc, or you have the best $$ can buy, but the results can be similar.

But help folks and share the knowledge you have and have gained with others.

They will whine, they will cry, they will thank you, they will go through many moods, but stick with them and stick with the topic and the help.

Most issues are not solved in one post.
Ask them questions hopefully they can answer.

If you ask them for a complete water quality analysis, you likely will not get it and even if you do, who knows if the results are accurate.

I've found it's easier to see what species of algae they have and how their plants are doing.

Most have cameras and can post a pic.
The rest is simple step wise solutions.

Now.... there will always be one guy who never gets it right..........that's just the way it goes over the web........

But try and help, often they figure it out later and it was something they overlooked.

:fish: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Curare

Well said Tom, and sussinctly put there Steve


----------



## Ktulu_JL

Everything runs in trilogies now. I am sitting on pins an needles waiting for the third part! I can't wait and am going to start looking on SpoilerFix.com for sneaks into what is gonna happen next!!!

Plus, where else can you get two huge posts by TomBarr sharing tons of info?

Thanks Steve and don't let this tank get too dry please....


----------



## sumoarigato

*Stages*

Tom's comment "Folks go through stages..." made me recall a saying that seems appropriate here. It reads something like this:


When you know nothing,
the Mountains are Mountains,
and the Trees are Trees.

When you begin to learn,
the Mountains become Trees,
and the Trees become Mountains.

When you understand,
the Mountains are once again Mountains,
and the Trees are once again Trees.


----------



## scolley

*I fixed my algae problem!*

Well I'm happier than a pig in sh*t! I've got a nice tank and it's ALGAE FREE!!!:bounce: :biggrin: :hihi: 

All you gotta do is rip out the unnecessary stuff like plants, fish, inverts, and substrate, then pour in a gallon of Chlorox. Nothing to it! Makes your house smell like a swimming pool, but you know all that cruddy stuff that builds up in your lines? Gone! You know all that algae that grows on the silicone edges in your tank? Gone! And you know all those plant/algae stains that build up on your nets and cleaning tools? Gone! Gone! Gone!










And then just for good measure, I drained the Chlorox after 24 hours and refilled and poured in great big jug of Hydrogen Peroxide.

Man, what a relief! I had no idea how bad this algae was stressing me out until I felt the joy of seeing it gone! Wow!

And this has been a great time to improve/simplify my electrical and plumbing under the tank. That's something I get a kick out of. That plus pouring over books for inspiration, now that my substrate is here.

Over all, I'm just having a blast right now! Wanted to share that with you. It's been way, way too long fighting that d*mn algae. All of a sudden this hobby got fun again. 

PS - I'm procrastinating on the final EI/Sticky Level pics, and lessons learned, and will get to them before too long. Promise.


----------



## Urkevitz

I like the minimalistic look, but I think your lighting might be too strong :hihi:


----------



## Marc

Doesnt bleach eat silicone?


----------



## scolley

Marc said:


> Doesnt bleach eat silicone?


Considering that my tank is full of regular tap water now, I'd say no. I Tsuppose it's possible that it might degrade it a bit - I really wouldn't know. But the tanks holding water great. As is all of the cleaned, reattached, and bleached plumbing.:icon_wink


----------



## Betowess

Yeah, It is a relief to nuke a nasty. The next one should be pure pleasure, I do imagine. Good luck with it Steve! BTW, were those operational bulkheads I see jutting out of the middle. If so, what purpose did they serve? For the auto ferts etc? Its probably in the construction thread, but I can't remember. It sure is a clean looking setup!


----------



## scolley

Those are 5 bulkheads Bob. Any one is more than enough to sustain all the flow my canister generates. But two are in use as outflows, instead of one. Only because I assume that creates better current in the tank with only one drain point.

Two are capped off and not in use at all. One has a little tube on it and is not connected to my filtration lines. Instead I planned on using that to detect water depth, but the pressure sensors I'm using on that just have not worked out. So instead I've got it hooked up to an air pump and blow bubbles up through it at night.

Depending on what aquascape I decide, I may move the drains around to different bulkheads. The PVC under the tank is flexible, so moving a connection from one bulkhead to another is no big deal - provided of course that there is no water in the tank!


----------



## A Hill

wow... im off the forum for a few weeks busy with end of school trips and last min, things by teachers. and bang i miss all the fun?!?! 

like wow wow wow wow wow 

maybe you should of scrapped this tank a long time ago :hihi: 

some lessons i have learned,

all in all my most important lesson i think i have learnt is DETAILS! i think starting wensday, (day i get out of school, thank GOD) i am going to start a journal on my 55g because i have had problems and i am starting to get them under controll but i can use help. but i keep laughing because you left out the SMALLEST DETAIL and it killed u in the end. so from now on every time a person has a huge problem... me if not countless other people will probably joke about silver in the tank. 

also steve i think lessons learned when u set up ur tank... even if you dont post it right away to keep a VERY DETAILED journal. lots of pictures. record EVERYTHING for you and us more or less. it will be alot of work but i think that we should all try more or less to make a tank journal for ourselves and the forum members. because heck ive got a ton of enjoyment out of this thread. i think this should be published :hihi: "The Mystery of the silver lined cupholder...." woooo wooo wooo lol

other random stuff, 

too bad i missed when u where talking about the plant swapping stuff... i would of taken a try at that maybe... im not sure tho.

but my major question, more of a personal one is "Did he get soilmaster?" or is he going with the scape someone else posted with all the FUNKY colors? lol.... i know the second is a no...wwellll i hope its a no.

we've had one heck of a time with this. its gonna be wierd to see it end. but good luck and ill be awaiting the start of a new topic!!!

best wishes!

- fish newb -


----------



## Curare

So what you got in there Steve? Glass catfish?

hur hur! 
Sorry, couldn't resist :$

Looking good mate, and good to hear it's all become fun again


----------



## Y0uH0

I must say that this is really one of the most detailed journals on setting up a tank. All the way from the setting up,to the problems faced and ultimately,finding the problem and then having to bear with the pain of tearing the whole thing apart. But then again,from your analysis of the entire process and the problems you have encountered,all of us will be able to learn from the mistakes that you have made. I will definately be anticipating your next set up,regardless of when that will be cause i feel that definately,you'll come back much better then. Cheers.


----------



## BlueRam

If it had a rock on it:
"My ADA style box fan"
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/176797-post1.html



scolley said:


> All you gotta do is rip out the unnecessary stuff like plants, fish, inverts, and substrate, then pour in a gallon of Chlorox. Nothing to it! Makes your house smell like a swimming pool, but you know all that cruddy stuff that builds up in your lines? Gone! You know all that algae that grows on the silicone edges in your tank? Gone! And you know all those plant/algae stains that build up on your nets and cleaning tools? Gone! Gone! Gone!


----------



## TAM

BlueRam said:


> If it had a rock on it:
> "My ADA style box fan"
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/176797-post1.html


Oh, ROFL.... :hihi: that is just dang funny.

TAM


----------



## A Hill

Curare said:


> So what you got in there Steve? Glass catfish?
> 
> hur hur!
> Sorry, couldn't resist :$
> 
> Looking good mate, and good to hear it's all become fun again


lol.....

and to the link... ya i bet its his next insperation.... 

- fish newb -


----------



## Curare

Well scolley, we're waiting to see what you've got planned!!!


----------



## scolley

Curare said:


> Well scolley, we're waiting to see what you've got planned!!!


While I do still owe everyone pics of my EI/Sticky Level experiment, and a solid Lessons Learned post, I'm not planning on talking about my plans for the next tank here. Sorry. 

But the plans are ROCKING! And I'm having a BLAST!:bounce: 

As usual, I'm really, really excited about this next aquacape. The first pics should look great! Question is of course, if it will stays that way.:icon_eek: 

I don't mind mentioning that I've had a great time UNDER the tank. I've re-vamped the plumbing, simplifying it a bit. Where I had 2 Eheim Pro II's (the smaller ones) now I've only got one. And I'm installing a new CO2 needle valve and CO2 hose (from Rex Grigg - GREAT stuff BTW - HIGHLY recommended) so I'll just use the needle valve to regulate my CO2 flow. The SMS 122 is just going to be set on a real low number and server only to prevent end of tank CO2 dumps.

And I've reworked my whole system of electrical raceways under the tank, so it is more out of the way, less visible, and always higher than any plumbing.

But the BIGGEST change is that I've almost got my automatic water-change/top-off system working. I've been lusting for that for the longest time but did not have the time to work on it - focusing on algae instead. Now I've almost got it working, and it is going to be awesome IMO. But I'll either be reporting that in this thread, or starting a new one just to document how I did it.

But I'm not gonna talk about the aquascape. Some of you may find it boring. I dunno. I think it's gonna be interesting. But I don't think I'll post anything until the tank is established. Keeping up with progress in journal form like this just takes TOO much time. But I will take pics all along the way, so that first post may be a doozy.

So look for the thread "Kahuna's Revenge" in a few months. :icon_wink


----------



## RoseHawke

scolley said:


> ". . . I don't mind mentioning that I've had a great time UNDER the tank. I've re-vamped the plumbing, simplifying it a bit. . . ."


There's nothing like experience with something like this as to what works best. I've found a lot of stuff _sounds_ good, but in practice? Then you have to go back and fix it, but odds are it's *better *than it would have been without the little jog in the journey to the end result. 

One of my favorite lines, "It's a learning experience," (or, "I'll never do _that_ again!") 

Oh, along with my motto _Nunquam Facile Est_ - "It's Never Easy" .

Will be waiting with "baited" breath (pun intended ,) for "Kahuna's Revenge!"


----------



## uncskainch

I've been away a while and missed the tear-down, but wanted to thank you, Steve, for all your hard work documenting your tank and the lessons you learned along the way. I've learned a lot being "virtually" in the trenches as you battled this beast and I can't wait to see what the future holds.

I've got my fingers crossed for that red foil background!


----------



## mecgeorgeneo

scolley said:


> So look for the thread "Kahuna's Revenge" in a few months. :icon_wink


always so witty 

btw i forgot to tell you that you are my boyfriends DIY hero. he's a DIY kinda guy but he hasn't built his own tank out of glass yet (he's working on building acrylic sump first). So you have topped him there  new tanks preparations are fun!


----------



## ringram

Scolley, take this for what its worth, but I had a thread/hair algae problem in my tank not too long ago and just came out of it. I decreased the bio load on the tank (it was never high), but I got rid of a couple SAEs that had gotten large and got rid of mommy & daddy platy, so no more babies and nitrate spikes. I kept bumping up the Co2 and got on a more routine (EI) dosing and wc schedule, but it looks like you got this part down. What I think helped eat up some of the extra ferts that the plants weren't consuming was adding frogbit. I have to stay on top of it, as it spreads fast, but after having this added and everything else done, its virtually algae-free. Looks like you're right on track though and I look forward to seeing further development  :thumbsup: 
If you want to see what I mean by virtually no algae, see my tank here --> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/photo-album/32297-my-20g-planted.html


----------



## bastalker

Hey Steve.....I am gonna be right there with ya here shortly tearin a tank down. As you know, I have had sand in the tank for the last couple years, and it is well.....just old!!

I am gonna get a 75G, an go with soilmaster select. I got quite the plant accumulation, so plantin it will be a breeze....an transfer my 55 into a grow out tank for discus..Wilds prolly... 


.


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## hfx987

steve...

sorry to hear about your problem!... i havent been on the forum for a while, and im just reading your thread backwards (i like confusing myself), and i just came across this from betowess:



Betowess said:


> Shuks, everyone's water parms are different. There is no silver bullet dosing method, IMO. But I think you already know that too. It really might just be the silica in the sand here, and all is mute if there are other causes of this algae than too much, or too little light or the same re: dosing. Just my 2 cents.


might not be a silver bullet dosing method, but theres definatley a "silver bullet" as you found out...

cant wait for your new adventure - you have been an inspiration.

/[hfx]


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## scolley

*EI Results, pics, and responses*

*EI/STICKY LEVEL RESULT PICS*

Here are the last pics of the tank, the Big Clear Kahuna. This was at the end of an approximate 3 week EI/Sticky Level test. As you can find in the thread, due to various disagreements regarding the appropriate level of light, the three weeks were broken into approximately 3 week long periods of differing light levels. The first week was moderate with a minor mid-day boost. The second week was moderate to low. And the final week was mid-high light. It's all documented in the thread.

These are the pics at the end of that last week. I had religiously kept my hands out of the tank, and dosed according to the recommended levels, using the recommended methods, with 50% water change every 7 days. Right before these shots though, I did remove most of the massive amounts of GDA from the glass so I could get pics of the plants. And a few minutes after these shots, my disgust had reached it's threshold, and I started joyously ripping plants out of the tank.

First a whole tank shot.










Next, a look a the good news. This Nymphaea LOVE EI and good lighting. It emerged and got huge in a single week. And it does not have a SPEC of algae. So EI/Sticky worked GREAT for some plants.










The hygro in this shot also was happy. The lower leaves were from prior, lower light weeks. The new leaves on top were all from the current week, and appear to be algae free.










Now the bad news. Some plants got worse. The floating mass in the corner is some of my favorite, hard to find, Ludwigia. It just melted. Well, the stems did anyway. This happened to a number of them, all in this last week.










I think this final shot tells it all. I've got some Ludwigia here, coloring up beautifully, happily growing. But even the new growth gets attacked. And the older growth just became a platform for massive algae infestation.










It has NEVER been this thick. Not the dense mats of algae you see here. This all happened this last week.



*CONCLUSIONS ON EI/STICKY*

First, we have to accept that the discovery of the silver lined coaster in the substrate will always mean that any findings are questionable. But, the fact is that this tank had been running for about 8 months. So some conclusions should at least be worthy of consideration.

When this test started, the algae was retreating. But that appeared to be because I was starving it. I think I may have ultimately been successful on that path, but it may have taken several starving sessions, and a lot of time.

EI/Sticky has been billed as something that will drive back algae infestations. I do not think it was able to drive back this one. Some plants flourished, but most just sunk deeper into infestation. I suspect whether EI/Sticky Levels work to drive back existing algae depends highly upon the type of algae you have, and possibly more important, the type of plants you have. Ludwigias with hair algae are toast under EI/Sticky Levels.

Or maybe even the Ludwigias would have flourished too, if I was not poisoning them with silver in the substrate. We'll never know for sure.




*RESPONSES*

*Cindy *- Thanks. It certainly will be better next go around. Nothing like a protracted shake-down cruise to work the kinks out.

I love your motto! But I think like myself, you would not be doing this if it was easy!


*Kathy *- Thanks. With what was clearly a whole lot of people reading the thread, it seemed almost a community obligation to document stuff, so that we could all learn. And now with all that work done, and everyone's reading, I find that d*mn sliver coaster! So much time and effort wasted. I don't think we will ever be able to know just how much it did, or did not, affect my efforts.


*mecgeorgeneo *- Thanks! I'm glad you like "Kahuna's Revenge". It kinda reflects the mood I'm in. This last tank was ultimately a failure, even if it was probably my own fault. But I feel like I'm due a bit of payback out of the hobby. So I fully intend for this next one to be a most excellent tank.

I'm with your boyfriend in enjoying DIY (when there is time!). As for being hero-status worthy, I cannot help but be reminded of one of my own favorite saying, "In the Land of the Blind, the one-eyed man is King." :icon_wink Or maybe this is just a case of "the blind leading the blind"!


*ringram *- I suspect, but cannot prove, that everything you are describing is just a reduction in ferts for the algae, particularly phosphates. I'll wager you just starved it. Ether way though, glad you worked it out!


*bastalker *- I'll be interested in seeing how that Soilmaster Select works out. I suspect it will be great. Good luck with the discus. I'll be jealous!


*hfx *- I'm a bit confused on how taking a lovely tank (IMO) and turning it into a disaster can be inspirational. But at least knowing it was for you helps me feel like the documentation was worth the effort. Thanks!


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## standoyo

and so the Saga ends...thanks for the novel Scolley. Your time and preseverance to document is well appreciated.

Onward to ''Kahuna's Revenge''...

Two wet thumbs up!

Regards

Stan


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## trckrunrmike

Hmm I'm just wondering why didnt you add any shrimp to eat the algae?


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## lumpyfunk

trckrunrmike said:


> Hmm I'm just wondering why didnt you add any shrimp to eat the algae?



It is back a few pages but he did, 50 amano's. Scolley tried pretty much everything in this Herculean battle with algae.


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## trckrunrmike

How about cherries?


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## hfx987

scolley said:


> *EI/STICKY LEVEL RESULT PICS*
> 
> *hfx *- I'm a bit confused on how taking a lovely tank (IMO) and turning it into a disaster can be inspirational. But at least knowing it was for you helps me feel like the documentation was worth the effort. Thanks!


scolley... although it may seem like it - my "inspirational" comment wasnt just referring to the heart breaking problems your having here in this thread. 

since i joined this forum, i have especially enjoyed reading your posts - and your tank & setup is incredible. sure, it might be f*&^ing with your chi at the moment - but it is still (and will be again in your mind as well) an amazing tank.

and to your relentless dedication displayed in your documentation of your tank - both good and bad - from us who are a bit green (no pun intended) - cheers.

particular credit must go to you - as you have the balls to go "ok guys - i dont just have a wonderful tank *all* the time - currently its driving me nuts" - if you know what i mean.

thanks again...

/[hfx]


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## mrbelvedere

Steve, there is nothing more refreshing than tearing down a tank and starting again......I feel great.....I get bored with the scape easily......

Now the algae gives you an excuse. 

Good luck! :thumbsup: 

I suggest low tech....I am in love with it....lots of driftwood and anubias......that's it. Looks amazing.

Steve, I'm not sure if this has been suggested...I don't want to sift through a bazillion threads...have you tried simple poly filters to remove the phosphate?


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## g8wayg8r

....and just remember, you alway win in the end if you want. I don't know of any algae that lives in bleach. You will feel absolutely wonderful once you have your tank sanitized and it's ready to accept the new substrate. Plus, it may be time to change out your substrate anyway. It gives you an opportunity to try a bunch of new plants or a different substrate. It's a bit rough at first but I'm glad I did my 29 a few months ago. I think I've got the right selection of plants now for my tap water, substrate and lighting.


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## scolley

*Beginning Lessons Learned*
I've still got to do a Lessons Learned post. It'll be long, because frankly I learned a lot IMO. But I've spent some time pouring over the contents of this thread, and my own obsessively detailed records, and I can always find a consistent pattern - healthy growth followed by gradual but relentless decline. That happened several times as I tried to invigorate the tank on multiple occasions. I would bet anything the root of all my problems was that silver lined coaster. It explains a lot.

Also, another very significant data point...

I transferred some samples of my favorite plants to my grow out tank. And I've upped the dosage of my ferts in that tank, and increased the light, to get better growth from some of the plants there that I want to transfer to the soon to be new aquascape in my 75g. And there is not a trace of thread algae in this tank. And none of it followed the fish that went from my 75 into a quarantine tank.

No, it wasn't the algae from hell. It was just a tank that was having a hard time fighting off algae IMO.



*Where's the shrimp?*
But I found out where at least some of my shrimp went. Apparently I didn't kill all of them with high CO2. When I put my 4 remaining darters into a quarantine tank with my remaining Amanos, I found out just how much a darter like Amano shrimp. Quite a bit apparently.:icon_eek: Jimjim will be giving the darters a new home this weekend.

Thanks Jimjim.:thumbsup: 



*Auto re-fill woes*
I've been through heck and back trying to work out auto-refill/top-off for my tank before I replant. I still don't have it working to my satisfaction. This is complicated because of my stubborn refusal to install any large items like a float switch on the rim of my tank. And believe me, that complicates a lot. I'll have to start a whole thread on how I did it if I can ever conquer this problem. I've learned more than I ever wanted to know about pressure switches though. But you know me. I'm stubborn. And unlike my thread algae problem, I think I'll get this one licked. I hope.

But I should mention, just for your amusement... I was working on a refinement to my auto refill solution a few weeks ago, when my son tiptoed into the bedroom at about 2 AM...

"Mom?"

_"waaaa???"_

"Mom? Dad? Are you up?"

_"Huh?... What do you want? What time is it?"_

"Did you know the aquarium is making a funny noise?"

_"No. Go back to bed."_

"Okaaaay... but did you know that floor is covered in water too?"

_"WHAT?!?!"_ 

"Yea, the whole room... I think you should go look."​

FWIW that was a night that I will never forget. And if, by any remote chance I begin too, my wife will happily refresh my memory.:hihi: 



*New tank*
The new tank is ready to go, and I'm massively excited! I've got my substrate, I've got the hardscape. The difficult to find plants have been coming in over the last week and going into my grow-out tank. And the balance of the plants come in this Friday.

So this weekend is aquascape heaven! Waaahoo!!!

I can't wait. But it'll be months before I release any pics. Sorry. But I'll take pics as I go. I'm hoping "Kahuna's Revenge" will be a nice thread. Not as long as this one, and GOSH I hope without as much drama. But hopefully a nice tank to critique.



*Responses*

Stan - Thanks pal! It was my pleasure.

trckrunrmike - It's a long thread, but Lumpyfunk answered. Thanks Lump! And Cherries would have been $5 Sunfish snacks.

hfx - Thanks. I know these threads would be boring if it were nothing but posts of algae filled tanks. But IMO there is a bit of value in coming clean about what is really going on, instead of exclusively showing the glamor shots. That's how we learn. Right?

mrbelvedere - Thanks, but removing the phosphates was easy. I just didn't chase that road to the end. I was not sure it would work without several rounds. And as for the low tech. It's good advice. But I like farting around with stuff, figuring out solutions with technology, so I just can't do it. I'm stuck on a high-tech road I'm afraid. Thanks though it IS good advice IMO.

g8wayg8r - It's all ready to go. And yessiree, that bleach does give one a bit of a boost of confidence!


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## Martin

It'll be good to see some photos taking with a smile 

Og and your small tank still looks nice.. how about an updated picture of that?

Perhaps you should look into the coaster issue, instead of just blaming it for all your troubles... it's too easy.. and not like you§ 
Someone must be able to say what effects it might have on water quality/params etc.


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## windsurfer

Didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to add that Sterling Silver is normally 7-8% copper, 92-93% silver.

sounds like it might be a good way to kill plants and inverts....

Also note that yo have lots of light. my 72gal bow is lit by a 4x54 T5 Tek light. 6hrs/day 2 tubes, 2hrs a day 4 tubes. Ricca stones near the bottm pearl lightly with 2 tubes and everything pearls massively with 4 tubes. -very efficient lighting that Tek light.

-jd


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## scolley

Symbiot said:


> It'll be good to see some photos taking with a smile
> 
> Og and your small tank still looks nice.. how about an updated picture of that?
> 
> Perhaps you should look into the coaster issue, instead of just blaming it for all your troubles... it's too easy.. and not like you§
> Someone must be able to say what effects it might have on water quality/params etc.


I'm not looking for excuses. But let's not wait for someone on PT to stand up and say "Hey I'm an expert on heavy metal affects on aquatic... "

If you don't believe me, do what I did. Google it. The amount of information available on just how toxic silver is to soil, the organisms in it, and plants is staggering. And I have the silver coaster. It is not intact by any means. It is deeply corroded or eroded. In other words, lots of it got into the environment.

On top of that I had to first hand experience of seeing healthy plants decline - over and over again. And this is not my first or only tank. Everything else is well documented. This was not an ignored, mismanaged, or abused tank. Quite the contrary. Something was deeply amiss.

The silver is not proven. But it is one hell of a smoking gun.



Also - those pics of my 20g are old, old, old. It has had a grow-out tank function for quite a while. I'm happy to show you pics, but they are not pretty. There is no algae to speak of - it's just darn near choked off with plants.. Not quite a solid green mass. But close enough that it will not look anything but a tank stuffed, and overgrowing, with plants - and not artistically arranged.

It's just for making things grow, and it does that very well. It's show days are over. But if someone needs proof that I can grow plants, I'll get a newspaper and hold it up to the tank for a photo if required.


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## TheOtherGeoff

i wanna see the new tank already..haha


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## mecgeorgeneo

oh man auto top offs are a pain when they dont work. my janky set up caused back siphoning in my sw tank, causing salinity change, making everything pissed off. luckily the new tank set up will be better. did you figure it out tho? how to do auto top off without float switches on your tank? new set ups are great cuz then you can add and improve! my bf liked your quote.


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## scolley

*New aquascape!*

Oqsy just made me realize... I never linked this old thread to the new one! Sorry!

You can see from my prior posts, I stripped the tank and chloroxed/peroxided it clean.

Then I spent some quality time rearranging things I had done wrong in my stand originally - not having my electrical raceways high enough, not having separate wet and dry sides. And also took advantage of having no fish in the tank to finish and debug my new DIY automated topoff/water-change mechanism.

And once all the stand work was done, THEN I added the substrate, hard-scape and plants. But only after a WHOLE LOT of research, thought, and soul searching about what kind of tank I REALLY wanted.

And today marks the 1 month of it being up and running. So while I KNOW that I still have to make time for writing up a solid "Lessons Learned" post from this aquascape, please come and join me in my new thread -

_Kahuna's Revenge!_​
You'll find it in the Photo Album forum. It's not quite as exciting as this thread. I'm turning the dial back a bit - less posting, slower growing plants. But it will still be fun and informative I hope. I'd be honored to have you there too. :icon_wink


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## tcampbell

I have never laughed so much in my life as when I just read this!! Fantastic!!!



scolley said:


> Well I'm happier than a pig in sh*t! I've got a nice tank and it's ALGAE FREE!!!:bounce: :biggrin: :hihi:
> 
> All you gotta do is rip out the unnecessary stuff like plants, fish, inverts, and substrate, then pour in a gallon of Chlorox. Nothing to it! Makes your house smell like a swimming pool, but you know all that cruddy stuff that builds up in your lines? Gone! You know all that algae that grows on the silicone edges in your tank? Gone! And you know all those plant/algae stains that build up on your nets and cleaning tools? Gone! Gone! Gone!
> 
> And then just for good measure, I drained the Chlorox after 24 hours and refilled and poured in great big jug of Hydrogen Peroxide.
> 
> Man, what a relief! I had no idea how bad this algae was stressing me out until I felt the joy of seeing it gone! Wow!


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## plantbrain

For that species of algae, looks like Oedogonium mostly, a simple Excel 50%/50% water spray on infested leaves during a large 70-80% water change would beat the snot out of this algae. /This means about 35 mls of water and 35mls of Excel and spray all of it evenly over the infested areas etc.

Do this 3x a week till the algae is gone.
If you want to beat it back even more, add pruning and fluffing, a 2-3 day blackout with water changes and Excel. Few algae species can survive this.
Actually none do. Even Caldophora. 

You have a lot of light, less is better. 
I do not know how many folks in our club switched over to less lighting.
But most had their best results with 1.5-2.5w of PC/T5's.
See the ADa tank with 1.5 w/gal thread.

I've taken and far different approach to algae than most, and it's very effective at gaining a much better understanding and thus control over algae.

I try to grow certain species. Then I try and kill it.
This allows me to know at least one possible cause and get to try killing it under optimal conditions for the alga(worst case senario). 

Then I use algae as the bioindicator. This works in non CO2, marine, streams and lakes, not just planted tanks.

It was a tough path, but in the past, there was nothing but pure guessing about algae beofre I decided to get serious about algae.
That work paid off greatly.

It's a great method and tool to see and learn more about pest algae in the tank.

Advice: stay on top of it and keep doing that.
Want less work? Use less light.

Glad you fully considered what your goal was and what you really wanted.
I'm doing the same process as our PM's suggested.
I have a specific look, a specific routine and a specific set of jobs I like to do and those that I hate.

Once you have that goal well crystalized in your mind and write it down etc, draw those plans out, think about how you can improve the engineering to reduce the work, improve the health, increase tank resiliency etc, adjustable lighting etc and match the chores well with your known habits, then you can really get somewhere.

That's just outside the tank.

Inside you can do the same with the scape, pruning methods, species choices, hardscape tricks, etc. Finally the fish and herbivore listings.
We all get better as we learn. 180 gal looks good.:hihi:



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## scolley

plantbrain said:


> For that species of algae, looks like Oedogonium mostly, a simple Excel 50%/50% water spray on infested leaves during a large 70-80% water change would beat the snot out of this algae. /This means about 35 mls of water and 35mls of Excel and spray all of it evenly over the infested areas etc.
> 
> Do this 3x a week till the algae is gone.
> If you want to beat it back even more, add pruning and fluffing, a 2-3 day blackout with water changes and Excel. Few algae species can survive this.
> Actually none do. Even Caldophora.


Now you tell me! :hihi: Thanks Tom. I could have used that info about 15 months ago.

Actually I'm kidding. People will see this thread, and the H*LL I went though, and will know what to do now. Thanks.  

I'm also in full agreement about the light. T5's can just BLAST light. It's hard to compare a regular PC to a well reflect T5.

Thanks for posting!


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## monkeyruler90

wow, its 5 in the morning and it took me a week to finish reading this. it was sooo amazing watching your tank go through all these changes. i'm truly impressed by your dedication and your persistance. i've been reading your latest planted discus tank and i decided to go back to the classics of the BCK and i was delighted. It was a great tank and it was truly an honor to read it. you've dealt with alot of stuff and for that you should be congratulated. good luck with the current 180!!


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