# ADA Aquasoil came apart in 8 months



## rickztahone (Jul 20, 2009)

this is a very common problem with ASII. There is a new one coming out that is suppose to not break down as fast, or as easily. ASI doesn't break down as much either. Speak to Francis


----------



## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

its actually already out, New Amazonia Improved









I haven't gotten a chance to use it yet though so i don't know if it for sure solves the problem..


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

rickztahone said:


> this is a very common problem with ASII. There is a new one coming out that is suppose to not break down as fast, or as easily. ASI doesn't break down as much either. Speak to Francis


Yes, I did see that on the web site, but here is my big issue, the original product didn't work too well. It was also extremely expensive, roughly double what any other substrata would have cost me. So after one bad experience that cost me a lot of time and money, I am extremely hard pressed to purchase another "new and improved" product from the same people. 

It's kind of like if you have a bad experience with one brand of car. If you can help it you'll never buy that brand again, no matter how much better it seems to be.


----------



## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

I agree with you on that Dave. I was looking at AS soil but after reading about some of these issues it turns me off. For the price I would expect something a little better, actually a lot better.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

To be fair, there are some good points about Aquasoil. I did find it fantastic for growing plants. It also look very natural and nice before this event. 

On the downside, when it was new it did throw a lot of ammonia. I got very high ammonia readings while the tank cycles. These were even higher that I got cycling live rock for my reef system, where you get some die off. I didn't find this too big an issue, since I had time, but I could see where Aquasoil is not a substrata you use to replace something else over a weekend. 

As of now it looks like a road trip to a "famous big time" LFS tomorrow, and pick up a replacement substrata, so I've been reading up on the brand x verses brand y threads.


----------



## psalm18.2 (Oct 16, 2010)

Can you just layer something else on top to avoid tearing down tank.


----------



## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

I just ordered two bags of the new one about 2 hours ago. I am going to cap the 4 bags of as2 I have in my 120, that was mixed with powersand ( its all exposed and looks horrid). I was thinking about getting the Fluval Stratum. I heard its great.


----------



## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

You can throw another layer but you must first pre-soak the new aqua soil for at least 2 weeks. It leaches ammonia for a while.


----------



## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

Unless you have no live stock in there now then go ahead.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

psalm18.2 said:


> Can you just layer something else on top to avoid tearing down tank.


I considered that, but the thing is, all that does is hide the problem. It will come back to haunt me. This is because the pebbles in Aquasoil are very light. Over time any heaver substrata, which is almost everything else, on top would sink down, and I'd get the ugly pebbles back on top. 

IMO, I'm better off taking the hit now, and fixing the problem.


----------



## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm planning on capping mine with Tahitian moon black sand.. It doesn't get the tank cloudy, comes with bacteria built in to help handle the ammonia, and I haven't had a problem with it sinking to the bottom or anything in over a yr of use..


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

FDNY911 said:


> ... I was thinking about getting the Fluval Stratum. I heard its great.


I have not seen Fluval Plant Stratum being sold in any of my LFS, but that could be me. If your not in the market for substrata, you don't pay much attention to those products.

I did try finding more about it on the net. There doesn't seem to be much information on it. Even Hagen's website doesn't say too much - (I quote from http://www.hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=109&PROD_ID=01126920020101 )

- Fluval Plant Stratum is the ideal substrate for planted aquariums, featuring a light non compacting porous structure.
- Its ideal properties as an aquarium substrate are highly beneficial to nitrifying bacteria which rapidly colonize the vast porous surface, providing optimal water quality for fish.
Stimulates strong plant growth.
- Plants flourish as their roots easily spread and take advantage of available nutrients.
- Help support a neutral to slightly acidic pH.
- Will not discolour water and helps to control organic discoloration usually present when natural driftwood is used.​
Now I'm all for motherhood and apple pie too (grin), but this copy tells me nothing. I think I could put more hype into the description. They didn't even bother to tell me something like "Welcome to the 4th generation of planted tank substrata. Fluval Plant Substratum is so clearly superior to previous products that you have got to try it to believe it. etc etc etc" I'm kind of disapointed. (grin)


----------



## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

LOL! I got you Dave, I had to search around a bit too. Talk to Mordalphus he actually sells it. I heard it is actually pretty decent. Some members here have been using it instead of AS.


----------



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

I use the fluval stratum substrate, and I love it. It doesn't leech ammonia, doesn't break down super fast. It's light weight, so you may have problems planting some stem plants, but other than that, I cannot complain about it.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

"Photo not available" *sigh*

Anyone have a pic of the Fluval stratum stuff?


----------



## FDNY911 (Dec 6, 2009)

It looks pretty similar to the AS, if you google it and go to images they have a few photos, unfortunately there aren't too many up-close but close enough to get an idea.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Well, today I made the trip to the "Famous Name" LFS that sells mostly on the web and I'm now the proud owner of seven 20lb bags of Eco-Complete. This week I'll do the preliminary work of getting water ready and next weekend will hopefully be the big substrata replacement. 

Since I'm not moving the tank, hopefully it will not be too bad a job. 

The choices, because of what was available came down to Eco-Complete and Flourite. Eco-complete should not need any washing. I could see getting a similar amount of Flourite clean would be a big job in itself. I must admit though that I liked the colors of flourite better.


----------



## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

I have the same problem with my ASII. It looks very ugly now like the color rubbed off.

Has fluval stratum been proven to lower the pH and softness of the water like ASII does? That is the only reason I use it as soils like eco complete and flourite do not seem to do this at all.


----------



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yes, stratum buffers like aquasoil. I can't attest to how good of a job it does, because my water is already perfect, but I've heard it does a great job.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

sampster5000 said:


> I have the same problem with my ASII. It looks very ugly now like the color rubbed off.
> 
> Has fluval stratum been proven to lower the pH and softness of the water like ASII does? That is the only reason I use it as soils like eco complete and flourite do not seem to do this at all.


Yes, I suspect that they start with the pebbles, and use a process similar to how candy makers coat peanuts with chocolate to make Aquasoil. Then with use the soil separates and your left with a really ugly substrata.

I haven't seen the fluval product being sold locally. If I had I might have given it a try. I much prefer to buy bulk items like substrata locally, because shipping can eat you alive if you order it online.


----------



## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

DaveK said:


> The choices, because of what was available came down to Eco-Complete and Flourite. Eco-complete should not need any washing. I could see getting a similar amount of Flourite clean would be a big job in itself. I must admit though that I liked the colors of flourite better.


I dunno the EC I have needs washing else it is a cloudy, horrible mess that does not settle even after days and any movement of the substrate causes another white out. I had to run a second filter just to help pull some of that mess through to help clear the water. You should have seen the sponges when I pulled them out. It was horrible..


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

I'm kind of ok in that department. I have a Diatom filter, so if I really need to get fine stuff out, I can set it up and run it overnight. A Diatom Filter will filter the water much finer than the usual filter sponges and other mechanical media. I don't use it more than a few times a year, and I got to say it's not the most critical thing to have, but when you can use it, it saves a lot of work. In my "old age" I try to avoid any extra work. (grin)


----------



## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

Yeah, but eco complete is like... well, you'll see... A diatom filter is fine and all, but I do think eco complete will clog it in a matter of seconds. If you can, completely remove the water from the tank, put the new substrate in, and cover substrate with newspaper while filling, to keep it from stirring up at all.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I've used about 100 bags of ADA AS type 1 over the years, never an issue here.

5 years in.......

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> I've used about 100 bags of ADA AS type 1 over the years, never an issue here.
> 
> 5 years in.......
> 
> ...


I think it's great that you never had an issue. I really wish I could say the same. I did mention in my original post that I was using ADA Aquasoil Amazonia II, which may be different, rather than the type I. 

I've already explained my feelings toward the product, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Note though that several others have mentioned similar issues with Amazonia II, so I'm not alone here.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

DaveK said:


> I think it's great that you never had an issue. I really wish I could say the same. I did mention in my original post that I was using ADA Aquasoil Amazonia II, which may be different, rather than the type I.
> 
> I've already explained my feelings toward the product, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse. Note though that several others have mentioned similar issues with Amazonia II, so I'm not alone here.


I'm not really sure why they messed with a good thing and made II.
I'd be pissed too.

I'm saying that the solution is to stick with type I.
I'm not sure about the new stuff, it's untested, I cannot say(no one can at this point), I fully believe and have no reason to doubt folks experiences with type II. I think the likelihood of a conspiracy there is nil.

Trying new stuff is good and teaches folks, but sometimes........I'd want $$ back and replacement of product myself. That seems fair. Something, toss me a bone, free shipping on type I, anything. 

But to say, "ah, tough.............we sorry, but we are not going to do anything for you....." at the end of the day, that would chaff my hide.

I know.......had this done with other things in the hobby.
I did not let it go either, I'm an elephant there.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I did inquire about what kind of testing they did on this "New" AS, but haven't heard anything. I have about 10 Bags of AS II in my garage, any takers? 

What that being said I do have a tank running currently that has AS II in it now for almost 3 years. It did fall apart mostly where my midground rocks separate my foreground from the rest of my tank. If it falls apart around plant movement and you don't like the way it looks you could just suck it out with a hose and replace with some fresh AS. Unless your moving stuff around alot I don't think it's that bad that you need to do a teardown.


----------



## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

houseofcards said:


> I did inquire about what kind of testing they did on this "New" AS, but haven't heard anything. I have about 10 Bags of AS II in my garage, any takers?
> 
> What that being said I do have a tank running currently that has AS II in it now for almost 3 years. It did fall apart mostly where my midground rocks separate my foreground from the rest of my tank. If it falls apart around plant movement and you don't like the way it looks you could just suck it out with a hose and replace with some fresh AS. Unless your moving stuff around alot I don't think it's that bad that you need to do a teardown.



I have similar experiences with ASII. I'm about 15 months in with AS II in one of my tanks. Where my HC lawn is growing no problems at all. Even if it is broken down the carpet is keeping the substrate down. The exposed parts of ASII will disintegrate if touched hard.


----------



## Bunbuku (Sep 19, 2010)

when i had a tonina style tank, I almost lost my whole scape with EC. Kh was not suitable even with extensive prewashing. OTOH they did well with AS or Flourite.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> I'm not really sure why they messed with a good thing and made II.
> I'd be pissed too.
> 
> I'm saying that the solution is to stick with type I.
> ...


You might be right about Amazonia I verses II. In fact, I'm sure your are. 

Yes, had I know this when I made the purchase, I would have gone with the Amazonia I. However, after a bad experience, I just can't bring myself to replace one product by another similar one from the same vendor. 

You may or may not have noticed, but I have never said that I expect the vendor to replace the product, or make any kind of adjustment. I do not believe that anyone set out to make an inferior product. A also do not think I was ever dealt with in bad faith. 

It's like anything else, if your going to get better at something you have to try new ways of doing things. Sometimes things just don't work out. I'm more interested in finding out if others had the problem, and what they did about it. Like they say, if you never take a step, you'll never stub your toe, but then you never get anywhere.

As things in the hobby go, I have a lot of work to do, and yes, it's a pain, but overall, I'm not too bad off. I've had no loss of livestock that can be attributed to the problem, and the plants have grown well. True, I'm out the cost of the substrata replacement, but that's about all. 

Things could have been a lot worse.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Bunbuku said:


> when i had a tonina style tank, I almost lost my whole scape with EC. Kh was not suitable even with extensive prewashing. OTOH they did well with AS or Flourite.


This is an important point. Not every product or method works the same for everyone. 

Ever notice how many people have a fantastic aquarium, with many difficult to keep plants, but there always seems to be one, simple, easy to keep species that they just can't get to grow? (grin)


----------



## sampster5000 (Oct 30, 2010)

It is possible that AS II wasnt meant for long term use. I feel like I read that somewhere before I ordered mine but I also feel like they would keep that from me to make the sell. Even with this, I still like the soil a lot I just dont like the price of it when I have to replace it once a year.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

sampster5000 said:


> It is possible that AS II wasnt meant for long term use. I feel like I read that somewhere before I ordered mine but I also feel like they would keep that from me to make the sell. Even with this, I still like the soil a lot I just dont like the price of it when I have to replace it once a year.


I don't think it was planned that way. It's more of less how it worked out for me.

However, I do seem to recall reading something similar. I seem to recall that the ferts used to make Aquasoil will last a year or two, and at that point you would need to additional ferts to the substrata. Also, that after something like 8 years, you could expect to need to replace the substrata. T

I sure don't like replacing things after only a year or two. Besides being too much like work, it's a major disruption to the tank.


----------



## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

DaveK said:


> I don't think it was planned that way. It's more of less how it worked out for me.
> 
> However, I do seem to recall reading something similar. I seem to recall that the ferts used to make Aquasoil will last a year or two, and at that point you would need to additional ferts to the substrata. Also, that after something like 8 years, you could expect to need to replace the substrata. T
> 
> I sure don't like replacing things after only a year or two. Besides being too much like work, it's a major disruption to the tank.


I agree. The labor that goes to a tank when tearing it down can be overwhelming at times (depending on the size of the tank). Me personally I don't like doing it too often because it's discouraging knowing how much time it took to do it. I'm actually looking forward to knowing peoples reactions on the new "improved" version. I got 2 bags and are going to use them in the upcoming months but until then i'll be waiting patiently for more user reviews. If anything, i'm very interested in trying my hand at fluval stratum because i've kepts it in my smaller ada 30-c tank and I have to say it's a nice substrate to have and works without any flaws that I know of.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

Just a status update on my tank. A couple of months ago I did do the tear down and replaced the Aquasoil with EcoComplete. It was an all day job, but it went well. After aquarium keeping for more year than I like to think about, I know what I got to do. 

I must say that the plant growth removed was massive. The other thing I found was that EcoComplete really is a clean substrata that doesn't require a lot of washing before use. That part I really didn't expect, because every other substrata that I ever used needed at least some washing to get it clean, even the ones that claimed they didn't need washing. 

Right now I'm going through some of the usual algae cycles that often occur with new tanks. It's taking a bit of a toll on the plants, because I don't want to fertilise too much with the algae issues. 

I'll post some picts once it gets to the point where the tank looks respectable.


----------



## gringostar9 (Oct 11, 2010)

Anyone using the NEW Aqua Soil?


----------



## newsops (Jul 24, 2011)

*ADA Aquasoil turning to silt*

You are obviously correct that Aquasoil tends to breakdown over time, but that time should be in years, not days as you seem to be encountering. Keep in mind that ADA does not like to sift or siphon much of the top layer of the substrate, therefore causing a lot of disturbance which would lead to the breakdown, you're seeing. They clean their tanks daily, almost hourly because they have the people to do it. Their method is based on a lot of pruning and water changes, as opposed to heavy siphoning/vacuuming which can be very disturbing and sometimes destructive. One of the beauties of a NATURE AQUARIUM is the carpet like effect that Amano seems to get out of his plants, this is usually very difficult for most enthusiasts to duplicate. That carpet effect comes with a problem, getting the top layer of your substrate where food and dead leaves fall becomes challenging. I want to be careful to point out that ADA's team does siphon, but very carefully and very liberally, and more for the purposes of water changes then bottom cleaning. It seems they prefer to use the term "animals" for fish (if you read his latest books) to do that job, and or a lot of pruning, which I think is very important.

My point is don't give up so quickly on Aquasoils, they are very good, and let's keep in mind that the environmental message of the company is paramount here. Pricey, no one can disagree with. Thanks to the efforts of great people like George Lo and Jeff Senske, the price has come down dramatically. Is it as inexpensive as FLUVAL or SEACHEM solutions, no.

My final point here, would be to make sure that with the tank size you are using, that you may want to think about a using Powder Sand was your bottom layer, mixed with PENAC. Exactly why it has the name "powder" in the title is perplexing to me, because its made out of volcanic rock and doesn't resemble sand at all, but this bottom layer gives you more stability in your substrate, the "powder" thing comes I assume from all of the dusting of different powders they put on the rock. Remember, water has a lot of mass to it, and does impact the stability of substrate. Aquasoil was designed to be used alone in smaller size tanks, say something in the neighborhood of a 10-gallon or less.

I read your fustration on the fact that your environment is already set up, and "wet" Aquasoil can't be re-bagged, but planning any environment is a key factor, and I think we all feel for you.


----------



## DaveK (Jul 10, 2010)

At this point, I've already replaced the Aquasoil II with EcoComplete. So yes, I have given up on the Aquasoil II, due to it breaking down in a few months. Considering that ADA products are extremely expensive, it's reasonable to expect top rate results. I do admit that as far as growing plants, the Aquasoil was excellent, but is should have never broken apart. It did this all on it's own. I don't think I ever disturbed the substrata with any maintenance. I did make some disturbance replanting a few areas. Oddly enough, this was not in areas where I had the problem. 

It is quite possible the new Aquasoil is a lot better. However, as I pointed out in a previous post, I'm not about to try the new material after a really bad experience. It's just like if you go out and buy a new car from what should be a top quality brand, and you get a lemon. No matter how good the reputation of the manufacturer is, you most likely never buy another. 

Since the substrata replacement has already been made, any further discussion of Power Sand, PENAC and so on is moot. 

In my opinion, the mass of the water should have no impact on the Aquasoil or any other substrata. Water pressure is related to depth only. My 90 gal tank is something like 20 inches tall. A standard 20 gal tank is 18 inches tall. Are you trying to tell me that 2 inches in tank height makes that much difference? Now if I had something that was 6 feet deep, I could see a possible issue.

Your quite right about Aquasoil not being able to be re-bagged, I had to discard it. I thought it looked bad in the tank. It really came undone after being removed. 

As for cost, I am fortunate that I have several good LFS in my area. Most of the other popular substrates I can purchase locally and not pay shipping. This isn't that case with Aquasoil, so it was much more expensive that the other substrates you mention.


----------



## Francis Xavier (Oct 8, 2008)

I don't think you did this DaveK, but I'm just going to mention it here just in case there's confusion for new users to Aqua Soil (I know how threads like these typically get researched when people are making decisions):

just for the record: never, ever ever ever, under ANY circumstance, rinse or gravel vac aqua soil of any kind. This will cause big problems. It isn't designed to handle that kind of thing - Aqua Soil is still at the end of the day, clay.


----------

