# C02 Regulators: Price vs Quailty



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

O.k. I see a lot of discussion about all types of c02 regulators out there. Victors, Sumos, etc., etc., Personally, I have never had issues with paying for higher quality if it translates to long term dependability, reiliability, and durability. For those that have experience with various regulators, is there a significant enough difference in the c02 regulators in the long run to justify the price difference. I ask only because I currently trying to decide on a c02 regulator and was looking at a Sumo (Ideal Metering Valve Package). Thanks.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Several of us will recommend a dual stage regulator whether it is made by Victor, Concoa, Matheson, etc.



Left C said:


> How are your Victor (two stage) regulators working?





fordtrannyman said:


> I love it!
> I have it set up with a DIY 3-way manifold using some cheap needle valves.
> When I first noticed the initial high side pressure drop from 900 to 600 psi, I kept a close eye on the low side-(Initial setting of 5psi). 3 days later 400 psi and the low side didn't budge. It wasn't until the tank was near empty (200 psi), that I had to adjust the low side to get every bit of C02 possible. This Regulator is not only very precise, but it got me another week of C02 and NO END OF TANK DUMP.




I purchased my Victor dual stage regulators from eBay. I ordered the brass parts, solenoids, bubble counters, needle/metering valves, etc. from SuMo and Green Leaf Aquariums. Then I assembled them myself. Both companies were very helpful and shipped the parts quickly. Those two companies are two of the very best companies that I have ever dealt with.



Go to http://www.jandrweldingsupply.com/store/Victor/Menu.html and on the left side scroll down until you find the word *Regulators*. Then click on _Valve Design_ to see how Victor single and two stage regulators are designed. Here are the drawings for them.






















This regulator article was first posted by lovingHDTV: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/equipment/78516-good-article-regulators.html


FROM: http://www.scottecatalog.com/scottt...057078ba0233fc8a85256b8f0059ad09?opendocument











*TECH & SAFETY DATA*


*How to Choose a Gas Regulator That's Right For Your Application*

*SINGLE-STAGE GAS REGULATOR*











*TWO-STAGE GAS REGULATOR*












*What is the difference between the Single Stage and Two Stage Gas Regulator?* 

Gas pressure regulators are used to reduce the pressure of gas supplied from a high-pressure cylinder of gas to a workable level that can be safely used for operating equipment and instruments. There are two basic types of gas pressure regulators: single-stage and two-stage.

Single-stage pressure regulators reduce the cylinder pressure to the delivery or outlet pressure in one step. Two-stage pressure regulators reduce the cylinder pressure to a working level in two steps. Since the performance of each is influenced by mechanical characteristics, the choice of gas regulator depends on the type of application for which it is intended.

The two most important parameters to be considered are *droop* and *supply pressure* effect.

Droop is the difference in delivery pressure between zero flow conditions and the gas regulator's maximum flow capacity. [Supply pressure effect is the variation in delivery pressure as supply pressure decreases while the cylinder empties. For most regulators, a decrease in inlet pressure causes the delivery pressure to increase.

The effect of these differences on performance can be illustrated with some examples. For instance, when a centralized gas delivery system is supplying a number of different chromatographs, flow rates are apt to be fairly constant. Supply pressure variations, however, may be abrupt especially when automatic changeover manifolds are used. In this scenario, a two-stage regulator with a narrow accuracy envelope (supply pressure effect) and a relatively steep droop should be used to avoid a baseline shift on the chromatographs.

Single-stage and two-stage gas regulators have different droop characteristics and respond differently to changing supply pressure. The single-stage regulator shows little droop with varying flow rates, but a relatively large supply pressure effect. Conversely, the two-stage regulator shows a steeper slope in droop but only small supply pressure effects.

On the other hand, if gas is being used for a short duration instrument calibration, a single-stage gas regulator with a wide accuracy envelope (supply pressure effect) but a comparatively flat droop should be chosen. This will eliminate the need to allow the gas to flow at a constant rate before the calibration can be done.

*_________________________________________________________________________________________________________*


*REGULATOR SELECTION (MATERIALS)*

*General Gas Use*

The selection of the proper gas regulator involves many factors including body and internal materials of construction. For general use, regulators of brass construction with elastomeric diaphragms will give good service in noncorrosive service where slight contamination or diffusion from an elastomeric diaphragm is not important. Brass regulators with stainless steel diaphragms prevent air diffusion and adsorption of gases on the diaphragm. This is particularly important with low concentration mixtures of hydrocarbons in which the trace component may be adsorbed on the elastomeric diaphragm.

The gas regulator must be constructed using materials suited to the application. Industrial general purpose regulators are often constructed with either Buna-N or Neoprene diaphragms. Regulators with Buna-N or Neoprene diaphragms are not suitable for GC analysis that can be affected by the diffusion of atmospheric oxygen through the elastomer diaphragm or the outgassing of monomers and dimers from the elastomer. In fact, laboratories that perform temperature programmed analysis are faced with excessive baseline drift and large unresolved peaks due to this diffusion and outgassing.

*High-Purity Gas Service*

The ideal construction for high-purity gas service is a gas regulator that has a stainless steel diaphragm. Such regulators are noncontaminating and assure satisfactory use for all applications of noncorrosive and mildly corrosive gases. Regulators for corrosive gases must be selected from those recommended with each gas listing.

A gas regulator equipped with a stainless steel diaphragm has several advantages over the elastomeric type. It does not outgas organic materials and it also prevents the diffusion of atmospheric oxygen into the carrier gas. Both Buna-N and Neoprene diaphragms are permeable to oxygen. The chemical potential of oxygen between the carrier gas and the atmosphere provides sufficient driving force for oxygen to intrude the carrier gas through a permeable diaphragm.

*Materials of Construction Summary*

The intended gas service for which the gas regulator is used must be compatible with the materials of construction that come in contact with the gas stream. The wetted materials must be compatible with the gas composition.

* o Noncorrosive (Typical Materials):* Aluminum, Brass, Stainless Steel, Buna-N, PCTFE, Neoprene, Teflon®, Viton®, Nylon
*o Corrosive (Typical Materials):* Aluminum, Stainless Steel, Monel®, Nickel, PCTFE, Teflon®


*Regulator Gauges*

Generally single and two-stage gas regulators are equipped with two gauges: a cylinder or inlet pressure gauge, and a delivery or outlet pressure gauge. The cylinder pressure gauge has the higher pressure range and is located adjacent to the inlet port. The delivery pressure gauge of lower pressure range is located adjacent to the outlet port. Although most cylinder regulators have two gauges, regulators utilized on cylinders containing liquefied gases may not have a cylinder pressure gauge because the cylinder pressure varies only with temperature as long as liquid is present in the cylinder.

*Operating Delivery Pressure Range*

Determining the delivery pressure range can be confusing. First, it is important to determine the gas pressure that is needed. Second, determine the maximum pressure the system might require (these two pressures are often the same). Third, select the delivery pressure range so that the required pressures are in the 25 to 90% range of the gas regulator's delivery pressure (a regulator's performance is at its best within this range).

*Regulator Placement (Cylinder or Line)*

Specialty gas regulator applications are divided into two types. The first is when the regulator is fastened to a gas cylinder using a Compressed Gas Association (CGA) fitting (or BS or DIN). The second application is when a regulator is located in a gas line - providing a means to further reduce the line pressure. A line regulator is identified by having the inlet and outlet opposite of each other, and by a single gauge which is in the 12 o'clock position to indicate the reduced pressure.

Buna-N® and Teflon® are registered trademarks of E.I. Dupont de Nemours & Company.
Monel® is a registered trademark of Inco Alloys International Inc. Viton® is a registered trademark of DuPont Dow Elastomers.

*__________________________________________________________________________________________________________
*
*
SELECTION CRITERIA SUMMARY*

The application determines which gas regulator to select. For example, a brass regulator should not be used in corrosive gas service. The duration of gas use time helps to identify whether a single-stage or two-stage regulator provides the best service. A single-stage is a good performer for short duration gas usage. A two-stage gas regulator performs best when it is attached to the cylinder and adjusted to the desired reduced pressure, and then remains in service until the cylinder is ready for changeout.

Consider this criteria when planning your next pressure reduction requirements.

1. Use a gas regulator for all pressure reduction requirements.
2. Use a valve for flow control.
3. Materials used in the gas regulator construction are to be compatible with the intended gas service.
4. Determine the delivery pressure requirements.
5. Do you need a cylinder regulator or a line regulator or perhaps both?
6. Determine the accessories to be included with your gas regulator.
7. Determine how you intend to use the pressure regulator. Generally a single-stage regulator is good for short duration applications; a two-stage regulator is good for long duration applications.


The safest means to reduce cylinder pressure is through a pressure reduction regulator. Scott offers over 40 regulator series with more than 120 different pressure ranges. All are intended for a specific application.

*__________________________________________________________________________________________________________*


*REGULATOR OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS AND SAFETY PRECAUTIONS
*
To operate a pressure regulator, you should be trained in its proper use or be under competent supervision.

1. Use safety glasses when installing and operating gas handling equipment.
2. Mark each new gas regulator with its intended gas service and never use a regulator for more than one service. Regulators that have been used in oxygen or oxidizing gas service must not be used in another service. To ensure safety and to avoid contamination, it is strongly recommended that regulators be dedicated to one gas service.
3. Never heat or expose a cylinder or gas handling equipment to temperatures above 125°F (52°C).
4. Never use a regulator as a shut-off valve. Be certain that the gas stream is shut off at its source when not in use.
5. Be certain that the gas cylinder valve and regulator connection are clean and compatible with the service for which they are used.
6. The Scott Models 14, 27, 209, 211 and 318 series regulators have a built-in safety device to prevent over-pressurizing the second stage. Never plug, obstruct or tamper with the safety relief device.
7. When the regulator is pressurized and/or in operation, no attempt should be made to reposition or detach the regulator.
8. Do not subject the regulator to an inlet pressure greater than is recommended.
9. Gas cylinders should be moved only on carts designed for cylinders.
10. Never move a gas cylinder without its valve protection cap in place.
11. Consult your nearest Scott Specialty Gas facility for gas regulator recommendations for use with pure gases and gas mixtures.


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## monkeyruler90 (Apr 13, 2008)

wow LeftC that was awesome information

if there was still respect points then you'd totally deserved a couple!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Many thanks Left C, that was most useful and informative.


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## TheCryptKeeper (Mar 9, 2008)

ok.. ummmmm will there be a quiz on this?






















:hihi:

great reading materials!


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

Nope ... just a term paper on why you are still using a single stage regulator when dual stage regulators can be found relatively cheap, they extend to life of your CO2 cylinder and it is easy to build your own planted tank aquarium regulator.:hihi:









I like this: *SELECTION CRITERIA SUMMARY*

The application determines which gas regulator to select. For example, a brass regulator should not be used in corrosive gas service. The duration of gas use time helps to identify whether a single-stage or two-stage regulator provides the best service. A single-stage is a good performer for short duration gas usage. A two-stage gas regulator performs best when it is attached to the cylinder and adjusted to the desired reduced pressure, and then remains in service until the cylinder is ready for changeout.


7. Determine how you intend to use the pressure regulator. Generally a single-stage regulator is good for short duration applications; a two-stage regulator is good for long duration applications.


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

As C has pointed out Dual stage is the better choice and for not much more money. I havent emptied out a tank (naturally) with either my Victor or Concoa so I can comment on the stableness of gas flow near the end but bith have been rock solid for a fer monts with out any issues.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Left,

Correct me if I'm understanding this wrong... so if I was to use a single stage regulator on my 5lb CO2 tank, it would not be able to let me utilize all the gas in the tank? Does it only let you use the gas to a certain point to where there is no more pressure, but the tank is not empty yet? Please help me understand this. 

Thanks,

Nick


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## Riiz (Apr 30, 2008)

speedie408 said:


> Left,
> 
> Correct me if I'm understanding this wrong... so if I was to use a single stage regulator on my 5lb CO2 tank, it would not be able to let me utilize all the gas in the tank? Does it only let you use the gas to a certain point to where there is no more pressure, but the tank is not empty yet? Please help me understand this.
> 
> ...


With a single stage, once the pressure in the cylinder gets to a specific low pressure, the regulator will dump or basically pass the rest of gas in cylinder through like it wasnt being regulated at all. So you have to fill or swap your cylinder with a bit of gas or risk a dump.. The dual stage regulators let you use the cylinder until it is bone dry and will preform like it the tank is full, til the end.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Riiz said:


> With a single stage, once the pressure in the cylinder gets to a specific low pressure, the regulator will dump or basically pass the rest of gas in cylinder through like it wasnt being regulated at all. So you have to fill or swap your cylinder with a bit of gas or risk a dump.. The dual stage regulators let you use the cylinder until it is bone dry and will preform like it the tank is full, til the end.


I know little about this, but when I contacted Sumo Regulators and ran this by them they claimed they have yet to witness an end of tank dump with their single stage regulators. I understand the reasoning behind this, but does it really happen?? Sumo claims no and advises that the extra cost of a dual stage regulator is not worth it, although they would be more than happy to put one together for me if I want.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

I've noticed conflicting opinions on this issue as well. I have seen it suggested that a quality needle valve can prevent end of tank dump. Rex Grigg states this specifically on his site related to the Ideal 52-1-12 valve http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/CO2.html#needle.

I would be interested to know the facts behind this. I have seen my Azoo regs dump when the cylinder is near empty. I plan to upgrade the needle valves soon. I guess an experiment is in order.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

bibbels said:


> I've noticed conflicting opinions on this issue as well. I have seen it suggested that a quality needle valve can prevent end of tank dump. Rex Grigg states this specifically on his site related to the Ideal 52-1-12 valve http://www.bestaquariumregulator.com/CO2.html#needle.
> 
> I would be interested to know the facts behind this. I have seen my Azoo regs dump when the cylinder is near empty. I plan to upgrade the needle valves soon. I guess an experiment is in order.


I had two of the Azoo regulators. I used the stock needle valves. Both of them were controlled by a Milwaukee pH controller. I never saw any end of tank dump events and the CO2 cylinders would be completely empty. I wasn't ever at aquariums to actually see what happened when the CO2 cylinder emptied, though.

More than likely, I did have end of tank dump, but the pH controller kept it in check. I just never saw it happen.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

Here are my 2c, 

End of tank dump is something folks experience with cheap Inexpensive needle valves. They look like the one in this picture..

End of tank dump is non existent in any quality single stage regulator with quality components. High grade needle valves will eliminate this EOTD.


-Orlando


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Orlando said:


> Here are my 2c,
> 
> End of tank dump is something folks experience with cheap Inexpensive needle valves. They look like the one in this picture..
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying that Orlando. That makes sense. So, then what is the real advantage of a dual stage regulator. Is it that the dual stage regulator allows maximum use of the c02 thereby giving you a little more time before refill. And does the price difference really make the dual stage regulators worth the extra $$$.. I know you carry a dual stage regulator and I don't want to put you on the spot as a seller/supplier, so you don't have to answer that if you don't want to.


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## SuRje1976 (Feb 2, 2006)

Orlando said:


> Here are my 2c,
> 
> End of tank dump is something folks experience with cheap Inexpensive needle valves. They look like the one in this picture..
> 
> ...


I think I can speak for Mike here and say that we agree with Orlando. Key word is "quality." Some manufacturers of single stage regulators will actually quantify the pressure increases seen with their regulators as cylinder pressure drops. They are in the fractions of a PSI per hundred pound decrease in cylinder pressure for well built regulators. By no means the "dump" that we've all read about. 

We certainly respect the desire of hobbyists to protect their fauna. While we do not doubt the quality and rock-solid construction of the great dual stage regulators out there, in our experience, they aren't really necessary for our application. A well built single stage regulator will not dump, and will only show a _truly negligible _increase in output pressure at the _relatively _low input pressure of CO2. Now an end of tank dump from a 3000 psi scuba tank that you're breathing from - well that would be a different story. 

I run every single CO2 tank down to empty. Never had an issue. roud:


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

SuRje1976 said:


> I think I can speak for Mike here and say that we agree with Orlando. Key word is "quality." Some manufacturers of single stage regulators will actually quantify the pressure increases seen with their regulators as cylinder pressure drops. They are in the fractions of a PSI per hundred pound decrease in cylinder pressure for well built regulators. By no means the "dump" that we've all read about.
> 
> We certainly respect the desire of hobbyists to protect their fauna. While we do not doubt the quality and rock-solid construction of the great dual stage regulators out there, in our experience, they aren't really necessary for our application. A well built single stage regulator will not dump, and will only show a _truly negligible _increase in output pressure at the _relatively _low input pressure of CO2. Now an end of tank dump from a 3000 psi scuba tank that you're breathing from - well that would be a different story.
> 
> I run every single CO2 tank down to empty. Never had an issue. roud:


Thanks Sergio for publicly posting this and for patiently and honestly answering all my questions via E-Mail re: this. I know you gave me this explanation via E-Mail but I did not want to post the contents of your E-Mail on this forum out of respect, so I apperciate you going public on this.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums (Feb 26, 2007)

If you look at what the main use for dual stage regulators such as medical,welding etc.

In these applications you will notice they don't use needle valves on the very end of theses regulators. They use welding torches,mig,tig type welders and whatever else the medical folks use them for if they still do.
I notice a trend of folks who buy used regulators on Ebay and they send me pictures of the regulator they buy and what do I see?
I see a dual stage regulator with a hose barb on the outlet with a section of tubing cut off. That is why they use the regulators.

In our hobby, we use precision controlled needle valves to control this flow of pressure.

Unless you have a Milwaukee,JBJ, Aquatek type needle valve. These are your culprits of the eotd.

Cheers, Orlando


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> In these applications you will notice they don't use needle valves on the very end of theses regulators. They use welding torches,mig,tig type welders and whatever else the medical folks use them for if they still do.
> I notice a trend of folks who buy used regulators on Ebay and they send me pictures of the regulator they buy and what do I see?
> I see a dual stage regulator with a hose barb on the outlet with a section of tubing cut off. That is why they use the regulators.


Precisely, Orlando.



> In our hobby, we use precision controlled needle valves to control this flow of pressure.


Agreed. I have been in this hobby for many years now, and have run several different types of CO2 regulator. Some were store bought, others assembled for or by me. In all of these years I have never experienced an EOTD on any regulator assembly that utilized a quality metering valve.

I will add:

When considering a CO2 regulator, the main criteria for selecting or assembling a CO2 regulator should really be the needle/metering valve at the end of it. THIS is the most important piece of any rig whether it be purchased as a unit or self assembled. A quality regulator body with favorable features does play a role in the injection of CO2 into our aquariums. However the actual metering or dosing of the CO2 to our desired specifications is done via the needle/metering valves, not the regulator body. Quite honestly, hobbyists money is better spent on better metering valves than anything else.

Just a commentary on my experience and opinion.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

"The advantage of a dual stage regulator is its ability to deliver a constant pressure, even with a decrease in inlet pressure. For example, as a cylinder of gas is depleted, the cylinder pressure drops. Under these conditions, single stage regulators exhibit a “decaying inlet characteristic”; where the delivery pressure increases as a result of the decrease in inlet pressure. In a dual stage regulator, the second stage compensates for this increase, providing a constant delivery pressure regardless of inlet pressure conditions."

What are the differences in needle/metering valves that allow the “decaying inlet characteristic” that lets the gas escape rather quickly when the cylinder pressure drops and those that do not allow this to happen?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I've never experienced EOTD but I do notice on my AquariumPlants.com Second Best Regulator that as the pressure drops when the tank begins to empty the bubble count begins to increase and I'm having to adjust it daily until I refill the tank. It has the stock Clippard needle valve.


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## jjp2 (May 24, 2008)

I have experienced exactly what Orlando has said. I ran my CO2 tank dry while I was at work and had no issues. I run a Rex regulator with the Fabco NV-55 needle valve. The only issue I had was some debris in the needle valve which I had to blow out.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Jeff5614 said:


> I've never experienced EOTD but I do notice on my AquariumPlants.com Second Best Regulator that as the pressure drops when the tank begins to empty the bubble count begins to increase and I'm having to adjust it daily until I refill the tank. It has the stock Clippard needle valve.


Switch out your needle valve. Like SuRje1976, Orlando, and Momotaro have said and from my own experiences, a good needle valve is the most crucial part of a regulator setup. 

I've used expensive dual medical metering valves down to the cheap Clippard needle valves and it makes all the difference. That's not to say the hobbyist wants a $200 metering valve, but one definitely needs to use something better than Clippard. A Fabco (~$25) is an excellent, economical alternative. I find that the Ideal valves are bit easier to adjust, but are also more costly.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Left C said:


> What are the differences in needle/metering valves that allow the “decaying inlet characteristic” that lets the gas escape rather quickly when the cylinder pressure drops and those that do not allow this to happen?


In my experience, the build, design, and quality of material used in making the valve seat and stem tip are crucial to the performance of a quality needle valve.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Jeff5614 said:


> I've never experienced EOTD but I do notice on my AquariumPlants.com Second Best Regulator that as the pressure drops when the tank begins to empty the bubble count begins to increase and I'm having to adjust it daily until I refill the tank. It has the stock Clippard needle valve.


I failed to mention that as my tank pressure drops and bubble count increases the working pressure also rises. I have to adjust it as the tank empties in addition to messing with the bubble count. So even with the increase in working pressure my bubble count should remain constant with a higher quality needle valve?


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Jeff5614 said:


> I failed to mention that as my tank pressure drops and bubble count increases the working pressure also rises. I have to adjust it as the tank empties in addition to messing with the bubble count. So even with the increase in working pressure my bubble count should remain constant with a higher quality needle valve?


I rigged my Swagelok metering valve to attach to an Azoo regulator. Even as the working pressure rises, the bubble rate stays constant.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

epicfish said:


> I rigged my Swagelok metering valve to attach to an Azoo regulator. Even as the working pressure rises, the bubble rate stays constant.


What Swagelok metering valve(s) do you like? http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_products_home.aspx?SEARCH=/id-10000276/type-1

It looks like Swagelok has been discontinuing some of the models that have NPT connectors and keeping the tube connector models.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Something similar to this...I don't have the exact part number with me right now.

http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-2MG2


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I have a dual stage regulator on the way from ebay but given this info I think I'll try a better needle valve on my current regulator before spending more cash to outfit the new regulator.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

epicfish said:


> Something similar to this...I don't have the exact part number with me right now.
> 
> http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=B-2MG2


Thanks. It is a low flow metering valve. 

I just ordered a B-2MA2 from eBay. I wish that I would of ordered 2 instead of one. The price was reasonable. It is a discontinued brass medium flow model, but they still make it in stainless steel. http://www.swagelok.com/search/product_detail.aspx?part=SS-2MA2


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Finally I picked up an Ideal needle valve from our good friends at Sumo to replace the Clippard valve on my AquariumPlants.com 2nd Best Regulator ( it was THE best when I bought it a few years ago ). I discovered a couple of things when installing it. The first being that the bubble counter connected to the needle valve with a 10/32 fitting and those are very easy to break if you over tighten even by hand. The second is that a 1/8 to 10/32 adapter had to be used to attach the Clippard valve to the solenoid. The adapter sits flush with the surface of the solenoid making it impossible to get at with a wrench. It did appear that you could insert an Allen wrench to remove it. However that only managed to strip the threads. Summing it all up I now have a new solenoid and bubble counter on the way.

What I really wanted to mention was the world of difference between the Ideal valve and Clippard. Aside from the big size differential, adjusting the Ideal valve is so easy. It turns and the bubble count increases or decreases proportionately and it stays there. With my Clippard valve you could literally just touch it and the bubble count would change. It so far seems to be money well spent and I'm looking forward to seeing how it maintains the bubble count as the tank begins to empty.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I had that same regulator. I wanted to replace the Clippard needle valve too. I contacted Orlando about getting the fitting out of the Burkert solenoid and he said it is very hard to do. 

Jeff, that Burkert solenoid on that AP regulator is very good. Do you think that you could use an 'easy out' to remove the stripped adapter?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

That idea did pass through my mind, Left, but it's really in there so I just ordered a new one. That Burkert solenoid has been a good one, not a bit of trouble in three years. It seems really well made.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Left C said:


> Several of us will recommend a dual stage regulator whether it is made by Victor, Concoa, Matheson, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Left C,

Excellent info!

What do you think if we add this in the Victor thread post assembly kits? Perhaps before that assembly page?


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

I'll work on a summary post like you are mentioning. There are a bunch of posts in that thread with posts from many folks supplying great info. :hihi:

I did do something somewhat like a summary and put in one the first post.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Okay... lots of info and fancy diagrams, but why does this matter to planted aquaria? I've got a single stage and nice needle valves (fabco nv-22s). I've never had any end of tank dumps... no noticeable problems... successful aquariums... what would a dual stage do for me? Not trying to be a twit, just learn something.


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## LRoberts (May 26, 2009)

So.... The Milwaukee Co2 MA957 Regulator Set is considered cheap?
I have been reading nothing but good comments about this set.




Orlando said:


> Here are my 2c,
> 
> End of tank dump is something folks experience with cheap Inexpensive needle valves. They look like the one in this picture..
> 
> ...


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## SvenBoogie (Jul 3, 2009)

Left C said:


> Nope ... just a term paper on why you are still using a single stage regulator *when dual stage regulators can be found relatively cheap*...


This has not been my experience thus far... :icon_neut


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

SvenBoogie said:


> This has not been my experience thus far... :icon_neut


A key part of the description is relatively cheap. When you consider that most of these two stage regulators retail for well over $200 then $50 for a used one isn't too bad which is also around the same price as a new single stage reg. 

I've linked one on ebay with the auction ending in a few hours. There are no bids so far with a starting bid of $25. While the seller doesn't have the best rating this could be used to your advantage if the item doesn't sell. Send a message offering less than his starting price and politely mention he may have gotten no offers given his less than stellar rating. He may take you up on it and then you have a nice dual stage regulator in what appears to be very good shape for under $25. Add another $10 or less to replace the nipple and you still come out pretty good.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Victor-Regulato...trkparms=65:12|66:2|39:1|72:1205|293:1|294:50


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## SvenBoogie (Jul 3, 2009)

I did see that ebay auction earlier today, but I wasn't sure if that regulator would be appropriate for co2, since its listed as for "Air, Oxygen, Inert Gas."


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

From what I was able to gather from reading the Victor and Dual Stage Regulator Pimp Club thread was that for our purposes they're fine. If we were using them in a high flow situation there is the possibility of the regulator freezing up. Please read through the thread and decide for yourself and I'm sure that others will offer their opinions and experiences also. FWIW, I have a VTS250 series that had a nitrogen nipple which I replaced with a CO2 nipple. I've only been using it for around 3 weeks but everything seems good so far.


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## bigpow (May 24, 2004)

also consider the technical expertise/support from the seller

I went with one of the best, and still ran into some parts issues. But because the seller is one of the best, I think I'm covered (still not resolved completely - no time to thinker yet).

Now imagine if I had bought the set from some ebay dude or cheap store, I'd be kissing my dollars goodbye already.

Just a thought.
Maybe that's why some people bought Mercedez, because they know the service department is always ready to take them in.


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## nvision (Feb 6, 2009)

i've been running co2 tanks dry for the last 10yrs and have used the Milwaukee regulators since when they were available and have never experienced a end-of-tank dump.


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## SvenBoogie (Jul 3, 2009)

DAMN.

I missed bidding on that auction by about 5 seconds.

I'm sure whoever won it was probably from here, so, congrats, and, I hate you. :icon_mad:


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

bigpow said:


> also consider the technical expertise/support from the seller
> 
> I went with one of the best, and still ran into some parts issues. But because the seller is one of the best, I think I'm covered (still not resolved completely - no time to thinker yet).
> 
> ...


Good point.


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## LRoberts (May 26, 2009)

nvision said:


> i've been running co2 tanks dry for the last 10yrs and have used the Milwaukee regulators since when they were available and have never experienced a end-of-tank dump.


Are you using a pH controller as well? Just wondering since I am getting ready to purchase one.


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## lushlife (Feb 27, 2008)

Has anyone purchased Rex Griggs Controlled Regulator for $141 shipped?

This research is getting mind-numbing with regulators, solenoids, valves, gauges, counters, reactors... didn't think it would get this involved.

And the prices for pressurized CO2 equipment makes FW as expensive as a SW setup.

I feel like Im ready to start pouting! :angryfire


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## SvenBoogie (Jul 3, 2009)

lushlife said:


> Has anyone purchased Rex Griggs Controlled Regulator for $141 shipped?
> 
> This research is getting mind-numbing with regulators, solenoids, valves, gauges, counters, reactors... didn't think it would get this involved.
> 
> ...


Trust me, I know EXACTLY how you feel, in the same boat myself. Doesn't help that I lost an auction for a victor regulator by seconds.


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## nvision (Feb 6, 2009)

hey LRoberts, i've never run a ph controller. just the regulator with the solenoid plugged into a timer.


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## Left C (Nov 15, 2003)

lushlife said:


> ... This research is getting mind-numbing with regulators, solenoids, valves, gauges, counters, reactors... didn't think it would get this involved.
> 
> I feel like Im ready to start pouting! :angryfire


This is how I view what you are confused about.

The regulators made and sold by Rex, SuMo and GLA are all very good. You can get them made with a Fabco NV-55 or better, Ideal, Swagelok, etc. needle/metering valves and they have very good bodies too. These homemade ones that we are making in the Victor/dual stage regulator thread are very good too. Most of us have purchased a very good regulator at a low price and we are able to upgrade to a better needle/metering valve. We have very good regulators at modest prices.

The questionable regulators are the ones manufactured by Milwaukee, JBJ, Azoo, Red Sea, etc. For the most part, these are the ones that people complain about the most. For some people, these have preformed well for them. For others, it is a horror show.

If you can get one from Rex, SuMo, GLA or even make one yourself with a good body and a good needle/metering valve; that's the way to go, IMO.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

LRoberts, if I had seen this thread, I'd have sent mine back to Milwaukee for a replacement to get a new one to send you cheap instead of returning it to the seller. I bought the rig along with the controller and HATED it... With a passion. I suspect mine must have been defective because I had to adjust the thing constantly, but I wouldn't recommend that setup to my worst enemy. I have since bought a used dual stage reg from anwar along with an ideal needle valve that Left C had chrome plated. It is like night and day. Considering I don't HAVE to have the controller any longer, the Victor + Ideal was actually cheaper.


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## hbosman (Oct 5, 2006)

Does anybody have any experience with Taprite Regulators? I see them on Ebay all of the time and wonder if it can be used successfully by us.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

I thought I'd toss in an observation or two after three months with an Ideal needle valve. All I can say say is why didn't I switch sooner. It has been nothing but consistent. I actually can't remember the last time I had to adjust it. With the Clippard, adjustments were a daily ritual. 

One thing I was interested in was how it would behave as the bottle emptied and the pressure began to drop. I should point out that I initially installed the NV on my old Aquariumplants.com reg but soon after I put it on a dual stage Victor so my observation may be due to the regulator, but as the bottle began to empty my bubble count didn't change. It remained as steady as ever.

Another thing I noticed was I apparently had a leak in the Aquariumplants regulator. At the bubble count I'm running I would have gotten 2 months at the most out of a 5lb bottle. I just refilled last week after 3 months. Just an added bonus to an already winning situation.


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