# Ok - still suffering here: need help or an anti-depressant!



## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Okay - back again. Things still haven't made a turn for the better ... I'm in a downward spiral here and need to right the ship. Or I need anti-depressants!

This is my first tank and I don't know what to try next. Plants are not thriving. They are doing the opposite ... slowly fading and/or dying. New leaves are coming in, but then they are stunted or withering before they can take off. Seems like every day something else takes a turn for the worse.

I can't figure out why and would expect with all the light, flow, CO2, and nutrients for a slightly better result! I need help. It feels to me like something more fundamental is missing and or wrong here ... something I am not seeing. 

Anyway - some photos and then tank info.

2-weeks ago (left) / today (right)



















Here is a shot of the anubias which doesn't look great (although it is putting out roots still and some small new leaves) ... the shot was during the water change.










Here, two weeks ago these guys were going really well and now they are fading/rotting/and disappearing (from today) ... since I started the tank, they have held on the best until now:











Two weeks ago I posted and got some advice, which I have been following. 

Here is my current dosing plan:

*day one, day three:*
1/2 tps KNO3 
1/2 tps (2.531) g K2SO4 
1/8 tps (282 mg) KH2PO4 

*day two, day four:*
1/4 tsp (1.159 g) Plantex CSM+B 
7ml Flourish Iron 

After the fourth day is over at night I am doing a 50% water change, and start with day one the next morning before lights come on.

Here is my setup:

40 breeder
buildmyled.com lighting (view specs)
Eheim 2217
Hydor Koralia Nano 425 (added last week)
CO2 - inline diffuser, more BPS than I can count - drop checker in the yellow and pH is down to 6.4 (from about 8 out of the tap)

Here are some recent measurements before my water change this morning (see a list of them here as well as a log of my work):


nitrate 80-160 (hard to tell)
phosphate 10
nitrite 0
ammonia 0.5
pH 6.4

So - I don't know what to do next.


is this a problem with too much or too little light?
from all accounts, I think I have a lot of CO2 (yellow drop checker, drop in pH) ... I've never read about having too much ... the HC is covered in little bubbles (pearling, I assume) as are most of the other plants
I don't have any root tabs … but would they really be the cause of this slow demise? seems like missing root tabs shouldn't lead to this kind of malaise
…. i just don't know

HELP!


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

How long has everything been planted? The reason I ask is because a lot of plants are grown as emersed/terrestrial because for the most part it's a lot easier. When you plant them in your tank immersed, there is a transition time for them to acclimate. During this time, some or all of the previous leaves can die to be replaced by new "immersed" leaves. Even if your plants were originally grown immersed, there can still be a transition time for them to adjust to your conditions.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Bandit1200 said:


> How long has everything been planted? The reason I ask is because a lot of plants are grown as emersed/terrestrial because for the most part it's a lot easier. When you plant them in your tank immersed, there is a transition time for them to acclimate. During this time, some or all of the previous leaves can die to be replaced by new "immersed" leaves. Even if your plants were originally grown immersed, there can still be a transition time for them to adjust to your conditions.


It's been over a month now since I put water in it. Maybe a month and 9 days to be exact.

So - you mean the plants I buy at the LFS that are in water when I bought them may have just recently been put in water before they got to the LFS and I saw them? Do I understand that correctly?

That could be some of it. But my new growth is not developing ... it's sprouting small new leaves and then they wilt and fade.

Thanks


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## AHGoodwin (Aug 21, 2013)

thornomad said:


> It's been over a month now since I put water in it. Maybe a month and 9 days to be exact.
> 
> So - you mean the plants I buy at the LFS that are in water when I bought them may have just recently been put in water before they got to the LFS and I saw them? Do I understand that correctly?
> 
> Thanks


That is correct. Sometimes they even put plants in water that CAN'T live submerged but sell them as such anyways.


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## wildroseofky (Mar 5, 2013)

When you move plants from one tank to another they have to get used to the conditions in the new tank. This can take as long as 4 weeks. It looks like a nutrient problem with your anubia. When you start seeing holes in the leaves it means you need more potassium. Try upping the fertilizer a little bit. You also loose leaves on the bottom of the plant when there is not enough light getting to them. I know nothing about LEDs though. From what I read you need at least three watts in each LED to grow plants. Hopefully someone else can give you more advice on that. For now up the fertilizer a little bit and see if that helps.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

wildroseofky said:


> When you move plants from one tank to another they have to get used to the conditions in the new tank. This can take as long as 4 weeks. It looks like a nutrient problem with your anubia. When you start seeing holes in the leaves it means you need more potassium. Try upping the fertilizer a little bit. You also loose leaves on the bottom of the plant when there is not enough light getting to them. I know nothing about LEDs though. From what I read you need at least three watts in each LED to grow plants. Hopefully someone else can give you more advice on that. For now up the fertilizer a little bit and see if that helps.


So I took a look online for potassium deficiency ... here is a picture I found which looks strikingly similar:

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/showimage.php?i=7669&c=

Okay. I'm a believer. So, I know that K = potassium and everything I am dosing has a K in it ... am I supposed to increase K2S04? I am doing a 1/2 teaspoon right now (nutrient calc is about a 1/3 tsp recommended). 

Should I do K2S04 at 1 tsp instead of 1/2 teaspoon every other day? Or more 1.5 tsp ? Can you do too much?

Thanks!


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

With your BML light you don't need to worry about having enough power (PAR) if you have the light fixture suspended a few inches above the water and your tank is a 40 breeder and you are not using a dimmer your plants are getting plenty of light. You may even have too much if you have a long photoperiod. However, I don't understand why you are using EI. You said you have MG capped with ecocomplete. I've done exactly what you did: dry start, MG/dirt capped with EC, CO2, BML light -- but no EI dosing. Absolutely, some of the plants melted (Eg: crypts, which will melt if you look at them wrong) and the tank looked pretty crappy for a few weeks -- HC got all yellow and nasty for example - but that's all normal. 

As someone pointed out, the plants you get at lfs/petstores are often/usually grown out of water when we put them in a tank and flood it, they need to transition and will "melt" or look pathetic until they get established and grow leaves that are adapted for submersed growth etc. In some of your photos this looks to me like what is happening. Recovering from the transition can take several weeks depending on the plant. But maybe someone with more knowledge than me can tell you if doing EI AND having a soil base can create problems. Are they being over-fertilized, in other words. My experience is that in the set up you describe you could stop dosing and, once the plants are adapted, they will grow quite happily. At some point you may need to begin dosing but not right away. 

I'll be very interested to see if any of the folks with a ton of experience in dirt tanks and EI speak to this.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> I'll be very interested to see if any of the folks with a ton of experience in dirt tanks and EI speak to this.


Me too! I was under the impression that with a high light setup and CO2 you needed to add nutrients ... to prevent algae, for one, but also because the plants would be trying to grow quickly in a higher light and require more nutrients to sustain it. I thought I read somewhere that light was like the accelerator on a car ...

I am doing an eight hour photo period. I think the lights I have are considered "high" lighting ... this is my first tank so anything I know is *not* from experience. As folks can probably tell. 

Thanks for your input.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

That link you found on APC thornomad is a database I am making of deficiencies, unfortunately you do not have a deficiency. These plants are showing characteristic nutrient toxicity signs.

The symptoms are occurring in new and old leaves in different species. The necrosis you see on some plants, the "potassium deficiency" holes on others, "nitrogen deficiency" symptoms on the rotalas and "iron deficiency" yellowing on new anubias growth are jumbled symptoms and do not point to one deficiency as you would expect from a true deficiency.

Nutrient toxicities can lead to jumbled symptom like you see here. This is because they interfere with different processes within the plant and can block certain nutrients from being taken up - causing the "deficiency" symptoms you see in your photos.

Since you are seeing several different symptoms above this would point to an overdose of CSM+B. CSM+B has several different nutrients in it that are toxic at very low concentrations. Since there is no calculator that I know of that calculates the concentration of each micro nutrient level in a given CSM+B dose I tend to use Iron as a guide to see if too much of the other micros are being added.

I calculated how much iron you are adding in total and it is high - boarder line toxic range. You are adding 1 ppm iron from CSM+B and 0.46 ppm from the flourish. Iron is probably one of the least toxic heavy metals in CSM+B. If you take iron as an indicator you are also very likely into the toxic range for copper/zinc/manganese/etc... Each of these causes a different toxicity symptom in each of the plant species you have above. Each species has slightly different tolerances to each heavy metal and so you are likely seeing them each reacting to a different toxicity.

Best course of action is to do several large water changes, then dose about half of what you are currently dosing if not a bit less until your plants recover.

While I don't think the high nitrates are causing an issue I think you do not need them to be so high, nor the phosphates. 10 ppm is very very high. Try keep phosphates below 2 ppm and nitrates around 15 - 20 ppm. 

Also, I saw your log book. It seems the parameters jump around quite significantly. From low to high values each week. Why is that?

I'd buy a jeweler's digital scale from ebay for about $15 shipped. There are two kinds of scale, ones accurate to 0.1 g and those accurate to 0.01 g. Both are usable for dosing. Teaspoons are not very accurate at all.

You need to consistently keep nutrients within certain parameters or you will see issues resulting from high and low values.

Also, are you using soil? I saw jeremy mention something about soil. You should not be dosing EI in soil tanks unless you have epiphite plants like anubias and java fern that are not planted in the soil and even then only dose tiny amounts. Soil has a huge amount of nutrients stored in it. When you first set up a soil tank many of these nutrients leach out into the water column. In addition, you may already have a large amount of nutrients in your tap water. It is quite common for micro nutrients to be fairly high in tap water. Your plants may in fact be bathed in much higher concentrations of micros than you think if all of these sources are contributing.


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## wildroseofky (Mar 5, 2013)

Only some plants get their food from the soil. Even with a soil substrate, if you are using high light, you still need some fertilizer. There is a lady called Rivercats over at aquariumadvice.com that has some amazing tanks and she is an expert on the EI and PPS Pro dry fertilizers. When my plants were getting holes and some yellowing leaves, I got the advice from her to increase the potassium. It solved all my problems. You could try the advice from the others on here and see if that fixes the problem. I ran out of fertilizer last month and went two weeks without and my plants survived. So you could try not dosing for a couple of weeks and see if that solves the problem. If not try upping the potassium and resuming your fertilizers. There are several calculators recommended on Green Leaf Aquariums forums that let you calculate how much fertilizers to use for your specific tank. Maybe try one of them out.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

Interesting! FYI: the OP mentions MGOCPM in a separate string (referenced in this post) and that it is capped with eco-complete. You have to go through to that string where this a lot of detail. Don't know if OP mixed regular soil with the MGOCPM.


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## wildroseofky (Mar 5, 2013)

Here is a link to a chart I was referred to to diagnose plant problems. Maybe that will help too.

Forgot to add the link.LOL Trying to type and watch the Walking Dead.

http://www.miyabi-aqua.com/tips-and-techniques/about-plant-health


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> That link you found on APC thornomad is a database I am making of deficiencies, unfortunately you do not have a deficiency. These plants are showing characteristic nutrient toxicity signs.
> 
> The symptoms are occurring in new and old leaves in different species. The necrosis you see on some plants, the "potassium deficiency" holes on others, "nitrogen deficiency" symptoms on the rotalas and "iron deficiency" yellowing on new anubias growth are jumbled symptoms and do not point to one deficiency as you would expect from a true deficiency.
> 
> ...


Wow. Thanks for that detailed look at things. There was a part of me that wondered if adding the Flourish Iron (basically on a whim when the red colors of the plants started to disappear and the gentleman at the LFS suggested I add it) might have triggered the problem.

Also - two weeks ago when I re-did my calculations for the EI dosing I got a higher CSM+B output than I had originally started with ... I think I started with 1/8 tsp at first and am now at 1/4. Yikes.



Zapins said:


> Best course of action is to do several large water changes, then dose about half of what you are currently dosing if not a bit less until your plants recover.


I will go do a big water change right now. 

Do you suggest 1/2 of everything ? 

odd days: 1/4 tsp NO3
odd days: 1/4 tsp K2S04
odd days: 1/16 tsp KH2P04
even days: 1/16 tsp PLANTEX CSM+B (and drop the Iron for now)



Zapins said:


> While I don't think the high nitrates are causing an issue I think you do not need them to be so high, nor the phosphates. 10 ppm is very very high. Try keep phosphates below 2 ppm and nitrates around 15 - 20 ppm.


Are the KH2P04 the only place the phosphates are coming from? I wasn't able to wrap my head around why they were so high either.



Zapins said:


> Also, I saw your log book. It seems the parameters jump around quite significantly. From low to high values each week. Why is that?


So - a couple times I measured before and after a water change just to make sure my test kits were responding ... as for the NH3 jumps ... at the beginning I was doing a fishless cycle then stopped when all heck broke loose. I am not sure why my Nitrites spiked to five for a number of days and are now back to zero. I assume the Ammonia I have now is from the decaying plants.



Zapins said:


> I'd buy a jeweler's digital scale from ebay for about $15 shipped. There are two kinds of scale, ones accurate to 0.1 g and those accurate to 0.01 g. Both are usable for dosing. Teaspoons are not very accurate at all.


I just ordered a scale.



Zapins said:


> Also, are you using soil? I saw jeremy mention something about soil. You should not be dosing EI in soil tanks unless you have epiphite plants like anubias and java fern that are not planted in the soil and even then only dose tiny amounts. Soil has a huge amount of nutrients stored in it. When you first set up a soil tank many of these nutrients leach out into the water column. In addition, you may already have a large amount of nutrients in your tap water. It is quite common for micro nutrients to be fairly high in tap water. Your plants may in fact be bathed in much higher concentrations of micros than you think if all of these sources are contributing.


I have MGOCPM capped with eco-complete. That's the first time I heard that! Geez. I must be dealing with a nutrient frenzy. 

Knowing that I have MGOCPM with eco-complete would you still recommend:

odd days: 1/4 tsp NO3
odd days: 1/4 tsp K2S04
odd days: 1/16 tsp KH2P04
even days: 1/16 tsp PLANTEX CSM+B (and drop the Iron for now)

Or even less?

Thanks so much for this detailed post and taking time to read through all my logs. That site is a lifesaver for me ... otherwise it would be very hard to remember everything.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

wildroseofky said:


> Only some plants get their food from the soil. Even with a soil substrate, if you are using high light, you still need some fertilizer. There is a lady called Rivercats over at aquariumadvice.com that has some amazing tanks and she is an expert on the EI and PPS Pro dry fertilizers. When my plants were getting holes and some yellowing leaves, I got the advice from her to increase the potassium. It solved all my problems. You could try the advice from the others on here and see if that fixes the problem. I ran out of fertilizer last month and went two weeks without and my plants survived. So you could try not dosing for a couple of weeks and see if that solves the problem. If not try upping the potassium and resuming your fertilizers. There are several calculators recommended on Green Leaf Aquariums forums that let you calculate how much fertilizers to use for your specific tank. Maybe try one of them out.


I might try to hold off on dosing and take measurements for a day or two. See if the nitrates and phosphates stay down. I bet my plants could use a break if zapins analysis is correct.



jeremy va said:


> Interesting! FYI: the OP mentions MGOCPM in a separate string (referenced in this post) and that it is capped with eco-complete. You have to go through to that string where this a lot of detail. Don't know if OP mixed regular soil with the MGOCPM.


Well played. I didn't mix it - just capped it. 



wildroseofky said:


> Forgot to add the link.LOL Trying to type and watch the Walking Dead.
> 
> http://www.miyabi-aqua.com/tips-and-techniques/about-plant-health


Thanks for the link!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

wildroseofky funny you should bring that chart up. The original version of that chart was made by me and later Photoshopped into that guide you linked to by another forum member. If you look a the bottom right corner of the guide you'll see my name (misspelled as Zapkins). 

Now that I know you are using soil I'd recommend you don't dose any nutrients in the water column for now. Only dose later on if you see deficiencies (which shouldn't happen for years to come - except possibly in anubias/java ferns that are not planted in the substrate).

The whole point of soil is that you don't have to dose haha.

I'd pick either soil and stick with that or remove the soil and do EI.

Also, I've seen other people go through similar issues with miracle grow soil. I think it is too rich to be a reliable soil for aquatic plants. Generally you want something with as few organics in it as possible since that also prevents rotting issues that can sometimes happen. I personally dislike miracle grow soil for aquarium use. Scott's top soil is a much better alternative since it has a very low organic content but plenty of nutrients for long term use.

The ammonia is probably from the rotting plants yes. Plants use ammonia preferentially over nitrates and over urea, so the fact that there are trace amounts says the plants are overwhelmed by nutrients and can't remove them all.

The phosphate you see are probably coming from the potassium phosphate you are dosing, but some are also probably leaching out of the soil and some might be in your tap water to begin with.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Now that I know you are using soil I'd recommend you don't dose any nutrients in the water column for now. Only dose later on if you see deficiencies (which shouldn't happen for years to come - except possibly in anubias/java ferns that are not planted in the substrate).
> 
> The whole point of soil is that you don't have to dose haha.
> 
> I'd pick either soil and stick with that or remove the soil and do EI.


That's so funny to find this out now. I felt like in all the hours I read up on substrates I never read about the connection with dosing and soil. I always thought you had to continue to dose. 

Then again - I do remember that I chose MGOCPM because lots of other folks had used it and found it easier. I think I associated it with a low-light setting though (the not needing to dose).

Anyhow: am stopping the dosing for now. Will do another water change today and maybe retake some measurements and keep an eye on things. I have all the stuff to start again when needed (and even a new scale coming). Smile.



Zapins said:


> Also, I've seen other people go through similar issues with miracle grow soil. I think it is too rich to be a reliable soil for aquatic plants. Generally you want something with as few organics in it as possible since that also prevents rotting issues that can sometimes happen. I personally dislike miracle grow soil for aquarium use. Scott's top soil is a much better alternative since it has a very low organic content but plenty of nutrients for long term use.


I thought I read that the top soil had manure in it (which was why folks recommended the potting mix)? Anyway. Water under the bridge at this point. I'm not going to swap things out. I like the idea of it being a little easier long term ... don't know why I got it in my head that I would need full EI as well. 



Zapins said:


> The ammonia is probably from the rotting plants yes. Plants use ammonia preferentially over nitrates and over urea, so the fact that there are trace amounts says the plants are overwhelmed by nutrients and can't remove them all.
> 
> The phosphate you see are probably coming from the potassium phosphate you are dosing, but some are also probably leaching out of the soil and some might be in your tap water to begin with.


All right. I'm going no dose for the time being and will do a few more water changes. I will check my nitrates and make sure they are staying between 20-40ppm. I remember reading they need to be there for healthy plant growth. Am going to assume I'll get it from the soil. 

This has been very educating. Thanks so much.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

I really think that you now have the reason for the plant problems nailed. However, there are a couple of things you will need to do. First, as Zapins says, MGOCPM is rich in organic material and you probably noticed there are bits of wood and bark in it that did not break down when they composted it. These will start to break down in the tank. During your dry start where MGOCPM was wet you may have noticed an unpleasant smell in the tank sometimes -- just nasty. I believe this is from the sulphur (gas) that is being generated during the rotting process -- perhaps someone can clarify that. 

Not sure if the Scotts does this too but I imagine that if it does it is to a much lesser degree since it has less org matter. 

So, in the literature on soil tanks you'll see two workarounds to the problem of high nutrient levels. One is to do very frequent water changes until things stabilize. Another is to mineralize the soil before you put it in the tank and cap it. You can read up on mineralization elsewhere on the site -- I've got a batch going now and it is a bit tedious. But so are water changes -- nothing is easy! Anyway, now that you have ID'd the problem I'd suggest you do at least two 75% wc a week until your water tests better and then keep doing relatively frequent changes m-- there are a ton of posts on this in the soil tank sections. You may very well get an algae attack -- that will also alert you to high nutrient levels.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

That is quite funny 

Top soil shouldn't have manure in it. You must look for the cheapest brand with no mention on the label of "fertilizers added, manure, organic." I sometimes nick the bag and examine the soil inside.

Redoing the tank would be a big job for sure and probably isn't necessary at this point. Just let things settle down with lots of water changes.

With soil it is unlikely that your plants will get nitrate deficiency. If the nitrate is 0 ppm that should be fine as well (unless you keep a lot of epiphite plants with no access to the soil).

Soil is basically a one stop shop for all nutrients. Just set it up and forget it for 4-6 years.

I've had tanks with high light, CO2 , soil and all stem plants - never had to dose anything for roughly 4 years.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> I really think that you now have the reason for the plant problems nailed. However, there are a couple of things you will need to do. First, as Zapins says, MGOCPM is rich in organic material and you probably noticed there are bits of wood and bark in it that did not break down when they composted it. These will start to break down in the tank. During your dry start where MGOCPM was wet you may have noticed an unpleasant smell in the tank sometimes -- just nasty. I believe this is from the sulphur (gas) that is being generated during the rotting process -- perhaps someone can clarify that.
> 
> Not sure if the Scotts does this too but I imagine that if it does it is to a much lesser degree since it has less org matter.
> 
> So, in the literature on soil tanks you'll see two workarounds to the problem of high nutrient levels. One is to do very frequent water changes until things stabilize. Another is to mineralize the soil before you put it in the tank and cap it. You can read up on mineralization elsewhere on the site -- I've got a batch going now and it is a bit tedious. But so are water changes -- nothing is easy! Anyway, now that you have ID'd the problem I'd suggest you do at least two 75% wc a week until your water tests better and then keep doing relatively frequent changes m-- there are a ton of posts on this in the soil tank sections. You may very well get an algae attack -- that will also alert you to high nutrient levels.


Sounds like a good route with the water changes. I don't mind doing them and I'm not taking everything out at this point to start over. I have done two 75% changes in the past twelve hours. I am going to do another one tomorrow I think (but will take some measurements first after the tank sits with this water for a full 24 hours).



Zapins said:


> That is quite funny
> 
> Top soil shouldn't have manure in it. You must look for the cheapest brand with no mention on the label of "fertilizers added, manure, organic." I sometimes nick the bag and examine the soil inside.
> 
> ...


Wow - you know, I think when I try and jog my memory that was the reason I decided to do the layer of soil instead of pure eco-complete. I started buying stuff for the tank back in February (and have since moved accross the country) ... originally, I got all eco-complete but then took some back and got a bag of soil instead and just capped it.

An hour after my second water change (in twelve hours) I measured 1ppm phosphates and 20ppm nitrates (less than 40 definitely - I can't really tell the difference between the 10 and the 20 or the 40 and the 80.

Will wait until tomorrow and then test again to see how much it changes when I just leave it alone. CO2 is still cranking of course. 8 hours of light and flow of Eheim 2117 and Koralia 425 Nano.

Thanks again everyone. If this doesn't do anything it has certainly increased my optimism.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

jeremy va said:


> With your BML light you don't need to worry about having enough power (PAR) if you have the light fixture suspended a few inches above the water and your tank is a 40 breeder and you are not using a dimmer your plants are getting plenty of light. You may even have too much if you have a long photoperiod. However, I don't understand why you are using EI. You said you have MG capped with ecocomplete. I've done exactly what you did: dry start, MG/dirt capped with EC, CO2, BML light -- but no EI dosing. Absolutely, some of the plants melted (Eg: crypts, which will melt if you look at them wrong) and the tank looked pretty crappy for a few weeks -- HC got all yellow and nasty for example - but that's all normal.
> 
> As someone pointed out, the plants you get at lfs/petstores are often/usually grown out of water when we put them in a tank and flood it, they need to transition and will "melt" or look pathetic until they get established and grow leaves that are adapted for submersed growth etc. In some of your photos this looks to me like what is happening. Recovering from the transition can take several weeks depending on the plant. But maybe someone with more knowledge than me can tell you if doing EI AND having a soil base can create problems. Are they being over-fertilized, in other words. My experience is that in the set up you describe you could stop dosing and, once the plants are adapted, they will grow quite happily. At some point you may need to begin dosing but not right away.
> 
> I'll be very interested to see if any of the folks with a ton of experience in dirt tanks and EI speak to this.


A dirt substrate is only beneficial to root plants. You still need to dose the water column. Especially if you have a lot of light and using CO2. Both my high tech and low tech tanks are dirt tanks with EI dosing. The low tech is dosed only once a week with a mid week reduced dosage. The high tech tank is dosing using regular EI dosage. About 50ppm of CO2. All plants are thriving, including my DHG carpet. No algae. My Blyxa Japonica are growing like weeds. I have more than 60 stems trimmings per month.  Both tanks have been setup for over 3 months. I see no signs that the dirt substrate is running out of nutrients.



Zapins said:


> wildroseofky funny you should bring that chart up. The original version of that chart was made by me and later Photoshopped into that guide you linked to by another forum member. If you look a the bottom right corner of the guide you'll see my name (misspelled as Zapkins).
> 
> Now that I know you are using soil I'd recommend you don't dose any nutrients in the water column for now. Only dose later on if you see deficiencies (which shouldn't happen for years to come - except possibly in anubias/java ferns that are not planted in the substrate).
> 
> ...


Yes, not to dose the substrate...... Maybe you can get a away with no dosing the water column in a low tech tank. With a high tech tank???? I don't think so.



Zapins said:


> That link you found on APC thornomad is a database I am making of deficiencies, unfortunately you do not have a deficiency. These plants are showing characteristic nutrient toxicity signs.
> 
> The symptoms are occurring in new and old leaves in different species. The necrosis you see on some plants, the "potassium deficiency" holes on others, "nitrogen deficiency" symptoms on the rotalas and "iron deficiency" yellowing on new anubias growth are jumbled symptoms and do not point to one deficiency as you would expect from a true deficiency.
> 
> ...



Interesting theory but you know we need Tom to shed some light here about "overdosing ferts." I believe you really need to dose A LOT, I mean A LOT, to cause toxicities.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

tetra73 said:


> A dirt substrate is only beneficial to root plants. You still need to dose the water column. Especially if you have a lot of light and using CO2.


This is true, and I have stated so several times. However, his plants are suffering from too much at the moment. He needs to reduce fertilizer concentrations to below toxic levels first before worrying about deficiencies.



tetra73 said:


> Interesting theory but you know we need Tom to shed some light here about "overdosing ferts." I believe you really need to dose A LOT, I mean A LOT, to cause toxicities.


You are free to believe whatever you want to. But the fact is, 90% of the deficiency guides, data, and advice on the aquarium forums in the last 2-3 years has come from me and the reading of scientific literature I have done. Tom may have tested many nutrient parameters to do with plant growth, but as far as I know he has not made a special study of nutrient deficiencies and toxicities.

The levels of CSM+B micros the OP is adding are already well above recommended values. Never mind additional sources of micro nutrients that are untestable (soil, tap water).


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

I am a total newbie to the planted scene and appreciate all your discussion.

This isn't a controlled study, but observationally I can say that I think the more ferts I have added along the way the worse things have gotten (starting with adding more iron, then adding more PLANTEX). Now, maybe it is influenced by "new tank syndrome" somewhat but I am no longer getting any new growth (which I was initially in the first few weeks) and things are getting worse not better. And I've been upping things along the way. That seems to fit with the over-dosed diagnosis. I don't know how to look up what is "too much" myself ... and have read a lot about how hard it is to overdose (which is why, I guess, I didn't think of it initially). I suppose it could be another explanation entirely but I guess time will tell in the next week or so to see if not dosing helps turn the ship around.

I know zapins has said that he has dirted tanks with CO2 and high lights that don't require water column dosing but I didn't get the impression he was saying I would never (or should never) dose the water column. Just that right now I was dosing too much.

I think, if I understood correctly, I should see marked improvement by not dosing and doing the WCs if it is truly a toxicity issue. If I can start new growth then I can see what, if any, deficiencies there are that could need additional dosing.

At least: this is what I tell myself to make myself feel better.

Thanks


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

You said: I know zapins has said that he has dirted tanks with CO2 and high lights that don't require water column dosing but I didn't get the impression he was saying I would never (or should never) dose the water column. Just that right now I was dosing too much.

That is also my take and what I believe you should do based on my personal experience with dirt/high light and CO2 (which is not as extensive as many who post).


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

So 24 hours after my second 75% water change and no dosing it looks like the phosphates have stayed about the same (1-2ppm) and the nitrates have dropped from maybe 20-40ppm closer to 5ppm. I am not sure if I can visibly notice any difference yet but my subconscious mind is telling me it looks a little better. 

I will re-test again tomorrow. No WC today unless folks think I should.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

It will take at least a week to see improvement. Once damaged by a toxicity most of your plants must make new buds which takes a few days. The plants that show damage only in old growth will recover a bit faster since new growth was not affected.

Those readings are encouraging. It probably means you have also flushed out most of the micros as well. As long as the nutrients stay around these levels you don't need to do more water changes today.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Things are holding steady: 5ppm nitrate, 2ppm phosphates ... Ammonia is at 0.25ppm.

Maybe another water change tomorrow?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I think those values are fine for now. More water changes won't hurt but the issue was toxic levels of micros which should have been flushed out by now. 1-2 water changes a week should be plenty from now on.


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## Paul.Gitter (Oct 17, 2013)

I'm a newbie myself, but I'm just reading a book which points at exactly your problem - see below.

The book is only $11.49 for the kindle edition at Amazon. Perhaps a good investment.

"4. Metal Toxicity in Plants 
Plants afflicted with metal toxicity exhibit various symptoms that might be interpreted incorrectly as nutrient deficiencies. Symptoms of aluminum toxicity for Vallisneria are premature browning and senescence of leaf tips [22]. Excesses of either copper, manganese, or zinc can induce iron deficiency and chlorosis [23]. 

Iron toxicity has been studied in at least two aquatic plant species. Investigators [24] reported a 75% growth reduction in the pondweed Potamogeton pectinatus after adding iron (1.2 mg FeCl3/ g) to the substrate. Leaves turned brown. Roots turned pale or red brown in color, and root growth was stunted. Hydrilla verticillata, exposed to well water containing 1.2 ppm Fe, became covered with a rusty brown color and began to decay [25]."


Walstad, Diana Louise (2013-05-15). Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise (Kindle Locations 588-594). Echinodorus Pub. Kindle Edition.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Is that quote from Walstad's book?

I still have not read her book yet though I look forwards to reading it after I am finished with a project of mine.


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## Paul.Gitter (Oct 17, 2013)

Yes, the source of the quote is at the end of my post.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

I am seeing small signs of new growth. I also think the colors have improved slightly -- but I haven't taken a picture to compare so it's hard to say.

The downside is I am also seeing some BGA. Just a few small spots here and there but it wasn't there before. And more today than last night.

I've done some reading on it (this, for example) and some folks point to a low nitrate level. My nitrates are lower now than they have been in a long while. (Others say that no matter what they tried they had to go the antibiotic route.)

Zapins - you've focused on the excess micro nutrients (PLANTEX + Extra Iron) ... Do you think that KNO3, K2SO4, and KH2PO4 were also contributing factors to the toxicity? Or are those less likely to go "toxic" ? I know my nitrates and phosphates were above recommended levels - but with the appearance of the BGA so quickly so I be considering some dosing?

Or maybe try the Marycin and wait and see.

Appreciate everyone sticking with me.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I think the macros were less of a problem in terms of toxicity than the micros were. I don't think they caused the issues you have had, though I'm not sure that I'd recommend keeping them at high levels long term while using soil either. Everything can become toxic at some concentration. As they say - the dose makes the poison.

I recently read a paper that speculated on BGA growth. Their idea was based around the fact that BGA can make its own nitrogen source using its bacterial enzymes so it has a competitive advantage in lower nitrogen environments. That doesn't in of itself trigger a BGA bloom though. The enzyme responsible for making nitrogen actually needs a lot of iron to work, so when environmental iron levels are high and nitrogen low it seems to provides ideal conditions for BGA growth. This could just be your soil leaching out some iron as it settles in. It is probably a transient issue.

If you can handle the BGA for now by sucking it up with a siphon I'd go that route until the plants have recovered a bit. Alternatively you can probably keep your nitrates around 15-20 ppm without harming anything, so you can try that as well if you'd like.

BGA usually isn't a long term nuisance algae, even heavily infested tanks can be cured rather rapidly compared with some other algae species so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Definitely - *do not* - do a blackout. Your plants are in a weakened state right now and they cannot tolerate it. The algae will not outright harm them and can be easily dealt with later when they have started to recover a bit.

So to recap:

1) manual removal 
2) possible increase in KNO3 dosing (15-20 ppm)
3) treat it later on after plants recover


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

I did another WC this morning and tried to scrape off the BGA where I could. Most of it is on the driftwood which is hard to get off. Maybe I'll try soaking a paper towel with some H2O2 and then laying it on the wood. We'll see.

With the water down I also took some time to clean up some of the dead/damaged leaves and let the new stuff come through. Is nice to see some new healthy stuff growing. I took some pictures. Will photo again next week and see how we are progressing. No doubt things have turned the corner here.

I dosed 1/4 tsp of KNO3 (am still waiting on my scale to arrive). I tested after about 30 minutes and I think nitrates were at about 10ppm. Definitely not over 20ppm (it's so hard to use these color cards!). Will re-check and see if they are going down and consider upping the dose slightly to get it closer to 20ppm or thereabouts (especially if it keeps dropping again, I think that would indicate the plants are using it up). When the scale is here will be easier to do some small increases.

Here's to small improvements!


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## JeffHerr (Mar 12, 2010)

I will say this... I'm no purist ad I'm not afraid to use an antibiotic if I get a really bad outbreak of BGA. In the past, I've tried everything to get right of it with no luck. 3 days on antibiotics and the problem is over, though of course I finish the course of treatment.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Checked nitrates again this morning and they had dropped a little (I took photos to compare them). If yesterday they were 20ppm after dosing KNO3 then today they were 10ppm. I went ahead with the same dose of KNO3 this morning (1/4 tsp or today, with my new scale: 1.9g)

I am going to order some Maracyn so I have it ready ... would like to give the plants a little time to recover and see some solid growth and stabilization ... then I can medicate.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

I don't understand the logic of dosing potassium nitrate unless it is an afford to kill the BGA. I think what Zapins said earlier was more that dosing was an option -- didn't say it was necessary (though maybe I misunderstood). 

Truth is, you have a soil tank and (if you follow the proven dirt tank model) you don't need to dose at this point. I'll stick my neck out and say especially at this point. Here's why: You just did a dry start. Your plants are adjusting to being submersed. All the nutrients your plants need are in the soil. If you have plants like Java fern that feed from the water column they may need dosing in the long term but (IME) they will be fine for the first couple of months without dosing. You just got through a situation where your tank was pretty much a chemical stew and was going to hell in a hand basket as a result. -) If you throw a bunch of chemicals in the water you may well get back where you started and encourage algae in the process (though maybe Zapins can help out on that one). There are many, many people who have very successful soil tanks and hardly ever dose -- especially when starting out. Remember, the soil under your EcoC is leaching all sorts of stuff out at the moment as the bits of organic matter in the mix basically rot. Even without dosing your water is probably a bit of a stew! My observation with soil tanks is that algae is more likely early on than later when the tank gets established. The plants are weak, the soil base is leaching stuff. If it were me I'd be engaging in some benign neglect right now: water changes, trimming dead stuff and that's it. I hope this is helpful.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

thornomad said:


> Checked nitrates again this morning and they had dropped a little (I took photos to compare them). If yesterday they were 20ppm after dosing KNO3 then today they were 10ppm. I went ahead with the same dose of KNO3 this morning (1/4 tsp or today, with my new scale: 1.9g)
> 
> I am going to order some Maracyn so I have it ready ... would like to give the plants a little time to recover and see some solid growth and stabilization ... then I can medicate.



There is no way you can have a 10ppm nitrate level dropped or consumed in one day. I would do several tests to make sure. Two, with the API kit, you have to vigorously shake the bottle #2.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

jeremy va has it right. Dosing is an option but it isn't necessary. 

He also brings up a good point that soil tanks often have start up algae issues for the first couple of weeks. It is normal and the algae dies off. You just need to be patient and rely a bit more on manual removal until things settle in.

I was thinking the same thing as tetra73. In fact, I think there may be something wrong with the nitrate kits you are using or the technique. Some of the earlier values you posted varied quite a lot. Try making a solution using distilled water or RO water where you add a known amount of nitrate to it then measure how much is in the water. If the values don't match up then you know your test kit isn't measuring accurately. Follow these directions for calibrating your test kits http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=83545

Any change in the plants? 

Are they deteriorating anymore or have they stopped deteriorating?


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> I don't understand the logic of dosing potassium nitrate unless it is an afford to kill the BGA. I think what Zapins said earlier was more that dosing was an option -- didn't say it was necessary (though maybe I misunderstood).
> 
> Truth is, you have a soil tank and (if you follow the proven dirt tank model) you don't need to dose at this point. I'll stick my neck out and say especially at this point. Here's why: You just did a dry start. Your plants are adjusting to being submersed. All the nutrients your plants need are in the soil. If you have plants like Java fern that feed from the water column they may need dosing in the long term but (IME) they will be fine for the first couple of months without dosing. You just got through a situation where your tank was pretty much a chemical stew and was going to hell in a hand basket as a result. -) If you throw a bunch of chemicals in the water you may well get back where you started and encourage algae in the process (though maybe Zapins can help out on that one). There are many, many people who have very successful soil tanks and hardly ever dose -- especially when starting out. Remember, the soil under your EcoC is leaching all sorts of stuff out at the moment as the bits of organic matter in the mix basically rot. Even without dosing your water is probably a bit of a stew! My observation with soil tanks is that algae is more likely early on than later when the tank gets established. The plants are weak, the soil base is leaching stuff. If it were me I'd be engaging in some benign neglect right now: water changes, trimming dead stuff and that's it. I hope this is helpful.


All right - I think I get it. I'll stop the dosing for now. Smile. I guess a part of me feels obligated to be adding things to the tank instead of just watching. It was to slow down the BGA and other algae ... but I can be patient too.



tetra73 said:


> There is no way you can have a 10ppm nitrate level dropped or consumed in one day. I would do several tests to make sure. Two, with the API kit, you have to vigorously shake the bottle #2.


I honestly can't tell the difference on the card between 10ppm and 20ppm ... or 40ppm and 80ppm for that matter. Here are photos taken in the same light. I do shake bottle two with a timer for 30 seconds. I also shake the test tube (also with a timer) for one minute. 

Here is a photo example taken twenty-four hours apart. It's just an iPhone shot but I took it in the same light both times. Can you even tell the difference on the card?










The second one looks a little lighter to me. I don't know if that's 10ppm lighter though.



Zapins said:


> jeremy va has it right. Dosing is an option but it isn't necessary.
> 
> He also brings up a good point that soil tanks often have start up algae issues for the first couple of weeks. It is normal and the algae dies off. You just need to be patient and rely a bit more on manual removal until things settle in.
> 
> ...


I'll have to try the nitrate calibration when I have a moment. My wife is gone and it's me with a one and three year old this weekend.

Yes - change in the plants. Here are some photos. Am seeing new growth. The wisteria's larger leaves seem not to have changed but I am noticing new stems forming at every old stem.










The shorter pointy dr. seuss looking ones are also sprouting some new growth although the bottom of the stems 



















The anubias leaves look similiar to me (maybe a little greener) but there are new leaves sneaking up (probably hard to see in the pictures)



















And the other "Stuff" is also showing some signs of green.




























I would say overall things have stopped deteriorating. I took out a bunch of stuff to try and watch it better. I wish I could watch it under stop motion because it's hard to tell what changes in a given day.

Can't say it enough: thanks for sticking with me!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

To me both pictures look like 10 ppm nitrate. The lighting is a little different in both photos (the right photo is brighter) but the card's color matches with the bottle's color in each pic from what I can see.

The plants do look a little better. The fact that the deterioration has stopped is a good sign. It may take the plants several days or ever a week or two to recover properly. Already damaged leaves will not recover, but all new growth should be healthy. Unfortunately that means those older anubias leaves will always look damaged. In a couple of weeks/months when the anubias has enough leaves to look nice you can remove the older damaged leaves if you like.



thornomad said:


> Can't say it enough: thanks for sticking with me!


No problem at all! I find plant deficiency/toxicity posts the most interesting of all forum posts. An enjoyable mystery to solve!


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> To me both pictures look like 10 ppm nitrate. The lighting is a little different in both photos (the right photo is brighter) but the card's color matches with the bottle's color in each pic from what I can see.


I have a hard time even noticing the difference on the card between 10ppm and 20ppm!

So - when do folks think it would be an okay time to try the Maracyn approach? The BGA is getting bolder ... I think I will take out the drift wood and scrub it off in the sink.

Here are some shots (sorry - camera phone again).


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

It helps if you have a light directly behind you and you put the card up against the card, but it can be tricky sometimes. I wish they'd make an affordable nitrate test kit, like the digital phosphate test kit they have...

Its been about 3 days since our last post, this should have given the plants a good head start on recovery. You can probably give those antibiotics a try, though your BGA isn't that bad! I've got a tank that I have neglected for 2-3 years now that has a great crop of BGA going. It certainly has a distinct smell when squished, though I can't quite figure out what it reminds me of.

If you can for the next set of photos, try take a few from the exact same location and angle. That way it makes it very easy to see improvements.

Here are some examples:
Nitrogen Deficiency:








From:https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-.../hziJv-GnTpo/w1918-h765-no/Growth+Resized.jpg

Iron Deficiency:









Hosted here:http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquarium-pictures/showimage.php?i=7688&original=1&c=

Originally from: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=472898&page=3


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't think Maracyn will help with that algae. It doesn't look like bga to me.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Bandit1200 said:


> I don't think Maracyn will help with that algae. It doesn't look like bga to me.


It does...it looks like GSA but if you look closely, you can see bubbles trapped inside the slim....

http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

The cause? Not enough nitrates...which is kind of odd considering the OP is supposed to have too much nitrates...


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> If you can for the next set of photos, try take a few from the exact same location and angle. That way it makes it very easy to see improvements


So I haven't had time to try and do some solid before and after shots from the same angle - been rushing and using my phone. When I have time I'll take some better shots and get them compared so we can see the difference clearer.

However!

I did want to show some photos of what I am noticing though ... some of it is not positive I think.

1) Wisteria (I think it's wisteria) seems to be doing well ... all the old growth is still wilting but there is new growth at each leaf. Lots coming in. Seems promising.










2) The anubia are putting out new leaves but just noticed this (see the hole? like burn out?)



















3) Now I don't know the names of the rest of this ... but these two (which are also putting out new leaves) seem to have leaves that are browning out ... (sorry these photos are really hard to see because it's away from the glass)



















Is this a nutrient deficiency this time? Am worried that some of these plants aren't getting enough going in the rebound department ... 

Anyway - thanks for your thoughts.



Bandit1200 said:


> I don't think Maracyn will help with that algae. It doesn't look like bga to me.


No? It the photos it is dark but to my eye it is bright green (almost florescent). What do you think it is ? I hand cleaned it and scrubbed the wood. It's quiet right now.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Sorry if this has been answered but you have a dirt substrate, right? What did you use it to cap with? What are those red substrate I am seeing in the photo? If you are using dirt, did you screen out many of the larger pieces?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

It is BGA. The link between algae and nutrient conditions is not as tight as you need to say this concentration of this nutrient = this species of algae. The correlation between low nitrogen and BGA comes about because BGA can fix its own nitrogen, so it should, _should_, have a competitive advantage in low nitrogen environments. Should does not mean it is repeatable or related at all.

Hmm. The stems look like they are on their way to recovery, the new buds just need time to grow out.

The anubias definitely looks off though. Is it rooted at all in the soil? If not it might be showing deficiency signs since it doesn't have access to nutrients. Even in my soil tanks where the anubias' roots are in the soil deficiencies can be a problem. It seems they aren't very good at taking up nutrients via the roots.

The pale anubias leaves look like iron deficiency. Try adding some iron and see if it perks up. Old leaves will re-green somewhat if it is iron (should take a day or two). Add 0.1 to 0.2 ppm iron.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

tetra73 said:


> Sorry if this has been answered but you have a dirt substrate, right? What did you use it to cap with? What are those red substrate I am seeing in the photo? If you are using dirt, did you screen out many of the larger pieces?


It's MGOCPM capped with eco-complete. The red stuff is from the eco-complete. Not sure what exactly ... it's mostly black with some red pieces.



Zapins said:


> The anubias definitely looks off though. Is it rooted at all in the soil? If not it might be showing deficiency signs since it doesn't have access to nutrients. Even in my soil tanks where the anubias' roots are in the soil deficiencies can be a problem. It seems they aren't very good at taking up nutrients via the roots.
> 
> The pale anubias leaves look like iron deficiency. Try adding some iron and see if it perks up. Old leaves will re-green somewhat if it is iron (should take a day or two). Add 0.1 to 0.2 ppm iron.


I should add I checked the log and I forgot to dose prime when I did my last 50% water change. Sigh. That's the second time I've forgotten that. Any impact?

So - the Flourish Iron I have says that 5ml per 50 gallons gives 0.1 mg/L of iron. Is 0.1 mg/L the same as 0.1ppm ? If so, I should dose between 4ml and 8ml to get 0.1-0.2ppm ?

I wonder if I am doing that right because when I use calc.petalphile.com it says that dosing 7ml of FLourish Iron for a 40 gallon tank would yield 0.5ppm.

Which would lead me to believe I have confused myself.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes chlorine and chloramine are quite damaging to plants. Chlorine can cause all sorts of issues, curling leaves, death to leaf tissue, etc.

Not sure about bleaching the anubias though. The tips of the leaves where it is burned looking could be chlorine. The new curled leaf could be chlorine related as well. But the color looks like iron deficiency. I assume you have no fish? If you did they'd be gasping and dying.

Yes mg / L is the same as ppm. Ppm means part per million, mg / L is milligram per liter which is the same as saying 1 / 1,000,000 or ppm. 

I use the fertilator on APC to calculate all nutrient concentrations.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/fertilator.php

7 mL in a 40 gives 0.46 ppm iron. So you want to use roughly 2 mL flourish iron.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Yes chlorine and chloramine are quite damaging to plants. Chlorine can cause all sorts of issues, curling leaves, death to leaf tissue, etc.


Oh man. I tell you I am not doing this tank any favors, am I? Good thing it's not children or someone would have taken them away from me by now.

I did another water change today and dosed 4ml of Prime. Poor guys.



Zapins said:


> Not sure about bleaching the anubias though. The tips of the leaves where it is burned looking could be chlorine. The new curled leaf could be chlorine related as well. But the color looks like iron deficiency. I assume you have no fish? If you did they'd be gasping and dying.
> 
> Yes mg / L is the same as ppm. Ppm means part per million, mg / L is milligram per liter which is the same as saying 1 / 1,000,000 or ppm.
> 
> ...


Ok. Will dose 2ml of Flourish Iron. Is that 2ml every day? Every other day? Only at WCs ?

The bottle, however, claims that 1 capful (5ml) for each 50 gallons will maintain about 0.10 mg/l. That seems to contradict the dosing calculators (both of them) does it not? Or am I just reading things wrong. 

And no: no fish yet. I thought I would have them in by now but with all the issues I'm still waiting. I wanted to cycle the tank as well ... not sure when it is safe to start that process yet. Or if it is necessary with the plants I have in there.

Thanks


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## Tenor1 (Jan 15, 2012)

Iron dissipates quickly in the water column and can be dosed everyday. Seachem's new line has a time release iron that is a big improvement for the hobby.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Haha, glad our tanks aren't children too! I think we'd all be in trouble if that were the case.

Interesting the flourish bottle says differently. I'm not sure what to make of that. It is possible that the calculators are incorrect. Perhaps flourish iron changed their formula after the calculators were made. According to the fertilator 5 ml in 50 g is 0.26 ppm so you'd be under dosing if anything.

Add some iron to the tank as we discussed, if you see some re-greening of the anubias then wait a day and add the same dose again. You want to do this because if the plants are iron deficient they'll suck up the iron in the water dropping it down to 0 again. The second dose will replenish the water column iron levels which should now become the baseline concentration. From then on just dose according to the bottle. You're only going to be fertilizing the water column for the few plants that can't access the soil underneath so you don't need much.

In regards to iron dissipating quickly. I'm not sure that this is what happens. I think it is certainly possible, but just because iron is not detectable by test kits doesn't mean it isn't there bound up to some new molecule or other. That said it seems that EDTA iron (the type used in CSM+B) can be detected long term. It is stably bound by the chelating agent EDTA and that seems to be a molecule that test kits and spectrophotometers can detect easily. I think the same is true for DTPA bound iron, but not the case for citrate bound or gluconate iron. I'm not sure what happens to the citrate or gluconate bound iron ferts. The bond between the "chelator" and the iron in these two is much weaker and they tend to separate. Perhaps the free iron is then oxidized into unusable forms of iron or precipitates out by reacting with something else. Organics can also bind metals, so perhaps the detritus in our tanks binds up some of the free iron.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Tenor1 said:


> Iron dissipates quickly in the water column and can be dosed everyday. Seachem's new line has a time release iron that is a big improvement for the hobby.


Is that a different product entirely than the Flourish Iron line?



Zapins said:


> Interesting the flourish bottle says differently. I'm not sure what to make of that. It is possible that the calculators are incorrect. Perhaps flourish iron changed their formula after the calculators were made. According to the fertilator 5 ml in 50 g is 0.26 ppm so you'd be under dosing if anything.


How about this for interesting. View the product page of the product. It states: _Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) or as required to maintain about 0.10 mg/L iron._

Then if you go to Seachem's online calculator and put in 50 gallons, say current iron is zero and target is 0.1 it suggests you do 2ml.

Um?



Zapins said:


> Add some iron to the tank as we discussed, if you see some re-greening of the anubias then wait a day and add the same dose again. You want to do this because if the plants are iron deficient they'll suck up the iron in the water dropping it down to 0 again. The second dose will replenish the water column iron levels which should now become the baseline concentration. From then on just dose according to the bottle. You're only going to be fertilizing the water column for the few plants that can't access the soil underneath so you don't need much.


Am I reading correctly that I should see a difference by like, tomorrow?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes. Re-greening can apparently happen quite quickly. See this thread where the sword plant re-greened substantially in 4 days:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=472898&page=3










That iron info is strange. I'll post it on APC's Seachem forum and ask them what is going on.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> That iron info is strange. I'll post it on APC's Seachem forum and ask them what is going on.


Let me know about the Iron when you find something out. 

I feel like missing the prime dose really set me back a bit. Sigh. Dosed 2ml again of Flourish Iron today. Not seeing much difference yet. Will check again next week and compare photos.

Nitrates are pretty low at this point. I think they look like 5ppm. First one is right after a KNO3 dosing last week; second one is 24 hours later; the one on the right is from today with no dosing.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Still no update from Seachem on that question, but I was wondering how your plants were doing?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Seachem replied about the iron:



Seachem said:


> Hello Zapins,
> 
> Thank you for your post! There are indeed different recommended dosage values depending on whether or not you are targeting a specific value, such as stated on the dosing calculator which would tell you to dose approximately 2 mL for a 50 gallon system to target a 0.10 mg/L initial concentration.
> 
> ...


Post found here:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...chem-iron-directions-not-same.html#post666751


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## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Maybe you could try pulling the stems out and letting them float until they've recovered a bit.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Still no update from Seachem on that question, but I was wondering how your plants were doing?



Things have been quiet on my end mostly because they are going better! I keep meaning to put together a good series of photos, but because I haven't had the time to do it never got around to posting.

So the short answer is: I think things have finally recovered and turned around for the better. I am seeing growth on all my different plants. I promise to get you some photos by the end of the weekend. I think you'll be very pleased with the change. I know I am.

The HC has started to bounce back, the Anubias look better colored that are growing new leaves, and the wisteria is really coming in after the old leaves with it.


I took out some of the plants that were really suffering. At my LFS I asked about an "easy" plant I could try just to see if my parameters were favorable to a healthy plant being introduced ... The guy recommended cambomba ... Grabbed some and in the eight days it's been there I've already had to trim it as it grew a solid six inches. Stuff is messy but grows like a champ. 

So good news all around. I want to take some good shots so you can see the leaves and provide some feedback on nutrients ... But I am feeling like my dark days are behind me. 

Started a Maracyn dosing yesterday for the BGA ... Will be done Saturday ... Plan on a big water change then some photos. 



Jaguar said:


> Maybe you could try pulling the stems out and letting them float until they've recovered a bit.


I had a few floaters naturally putting out roots ... One somehow caught hold about five inches above the substrate. Will try and get a shot of it. Is pretty neat. 

I think things are doing good ...

Last batch of plants introduced snails too ... They've been working hard.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Well this thread has been a rare treat, from micro nutrient toxicity to chlorine toxicity. Glad everything is looking up now.

Looking forwards to the pictures when you get a chance.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Well this thread has been a rare treat, from micro nutrient toxicity to chlorine toxicity. Glad everything is looking up now.
> 
> Looking forwards to the pictures when you get a chance.


And! There's more from My Tank Of Excess: was running the CO2 too high as well. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=487289

I've come a long way in a short time. Smile.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Ok! I've been wanting to take some nice shots with a real camera and tripod but that's just not happening. So, rather than come up empty handed were back with some more cell phone shots.

Overall, am very pleased and grateful for the help to turn the ship around. Starting to feel like I have a very light green thumb with the way things are growing ... not that I want to get too cocky, yet. Heh. 

Enjoy the photos and love your feedback. Appreciate it.

1) Full Tank Looks




























2) Anubias

The shots actually look a little worse, in terms of color, but for some reason my mind tells me they look better to the naked eye. Maybe it's just my phone. Or my memory. Either way, it is growing new leaves and seems pretty healthy to me. Minus the color in the pic.

1st shot is a comparison (old on the left) the rest are all current shots.














































3) Wisteria

I think this is doing much, much better. Really green and growing strong. No complaints.










4) "Unknown Plant" (help with ID)

So, this plant had stayed either the same or wilted in the past; in the last week though, the tops have exploded with some very thin long growth. It happened almost overnight. The leaves are much thinner and longer than when I first got it, however. I'm not sure what it is supposed to look like so don't have anything to compare it to.

It could be fine ... but wonder if it is?



















5) HC

It's coming back. I think it's turned the corner and seems to be making a recovery. You can see where there is still brown it hasn't come back all the way yet ... but that's how all of it looked a couple weeks ago so this is good.










6) Last unknown plant

This one was hit really hard with the overdosing ... first is a before and after shot and the other is current ... I think it's made a recovery and is reaching for the tank top.





























Thanks for looking and your help and input!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Wonderful set of pictures! I hardly think you need a tripod if you can get pictures like that with your phone haha. You definitely seem to have a knack for photography.

Your plants are really looking great. I think the HC and anubias are still recovering from their ordeal (old leaves will not recover but new leaves will be healthy), but they look like they are growing well. The funny color of the anubias might just be a camera setting rather than true color. I'd give it more time to recover. You are also dosing small amounts of fertilizers in the water column for the anubias right?

I'm no taxonomy expert but I think your two unknown plants are:

Pogostemon stellatus (the new growth you have going looks normal for the plant, it is a lot bigger than the original set of pictures you posted).
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=93

Lobelia cardinalis
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/details.php?id=152

From the PlantFinder:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/plantfinder/all.php

I'm looking forwards to seeing a picture with the HC completely filled in and a full recovery.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

Your HC will grow like a weed once it gets going. It really takes a hit when you flood after a dry start. In a couple of months I'll bet it is an inch thick. The tank is looking great and it looks like some of your stem plants (I think one was a rotala) are putting out roots. Not sure if you already know this but if you want to fill in empty spaces you can simply cut stem plants off about 2" above the substrate and stick the top part down into the substrate -- trim the leaves of the part that's going into the substrate first. The original plant will put out new growth and your cutting will make roots -- maybe test it. You'll be surprised at how quickly a cutting will get established.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Wonderful set of pictures! I hardly think you need a tripod if you can get pictures like that with your phone haha. You definitely seem to have a knack for photography.
> 
> Your plants are really looking great. I think the HC and anubias are still recovering from their ordeal (old leaves will not recover but new leaves will be healthy), but they look like they are growing well. The funny color of the anubias might just be a camera setting rather than true color. I'd give it more time to recover. You are also dosing small amounts of fertilizers in the water column for the anubias right?


I'm only dosing 2ml of Flourish Iron at this point. Haven't ventured into any more dosing ... heh. Not sure if I need to or not. It's hard for me to tell and I know it's hard for folks to tell from the photos alone. I don't really know what things *should* look like in the person.

I do know that the Cabomba in back left corner (no close ups, look at full tank shot) was originally flowering all the time when I put it in but has since stopped. Also parts of it have wilted and faded ... other parts seem okay and it is growing ... but not flowering. 

The Cabomba in the back right corner (green) is growing exceptionally well and seems to be holding together great.

There is one more plant that I forgot to photograph - that's a red one that had first lost its color then all its leaves nd was just a stem. That's coming back a little as well but the tips of the leaves seem to be turning and fading ... take a look ... first photo from when it had "died" then two from today zoomed out and cropped. Is hard to see sorry - is far from the glass.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

jeremy va said:


> Your HC will grow like a weed once it gets going. It really takes a hit when you flood after a dry start. In a couple of months I'll bet it is an inch thick. The tank is looking great and it looks like some of your stem plants (I think one was a rotala) are putting out roots. Not sure if you already know this but if you want to fill in empty spaces you can simply cut stem plants off about 2" above the substrate and stick the top part down into the substrate -- trim the leaves of the part that's going into the substrate first. The original plant will put out new growth and your cutting will make roots -- maybe test it. You'll be surprised at how quickly a cutting will get established.


Thanks for that tip ... but maybe I am reading it wrong: you said "stick the top part down into the substrate" ... do you mean stick the trimming back into the substrate? Not to invert the plant, am I right?!

I have been trying re-planting trimmings by trial and error. I notice that some of the plants put out roots very close to the top of the plant as well ... my wisteria, at places near the bottom, is just full of roots coming down ... almost like a web of them.

I am am hopeful the HC will fill the bottom with some fluffy great stuff. 

Fingers crossed.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

That's funny! Sorry, Yup, stick the lower part of the section that you remove in the soil. Do not plant upside down. -)


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Hmm not sure I've ever seen flowering cabomba below the water. Interesting.

The red plant looks like Ammannia crassicaulis which is a pretty difficult plant to grow. It does love soil and should go wild for you as soon as it recovers. Unfortunately it is one of those plants that if it gets stunted by a toxicity/deficiency it takes ages (months) to recover and start growing quickly. Once it gets going though it can grow very quickly. It looks like it is on the rebound so as long as it gets everything it needs it should recover and grow well. It gets huge though, like 5 inch leaves and a 1/2 inch thick stem, but has a very pretty pink/reddish shade in new leaves.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Hmm not sure I've ever seen flowering cabomba below the water. Interesting.


Well, it was flowering when I got it ... not sure how long it had been below the water at that point. That could explain it though. 



Zapins said:


> The red plant looks like Ammannia crassicaulis which is a pretty difficult plant to grow. It does love soil and should go wild for you as soon as it recovers. Unfortunately it is one of those plants that if it gets stunted by a toxicity/deficiency it takes ages (months) to recover and start growing quickly. Once it gets going though it can grow very quickly. It looks like it is on the rebound so as long as it gets everything it needs it should recover and grow well. It gets huge though, like 5 inch leaves and a 1/2 inch thick stem, but has a very pretty pink/reddish shade in new leaves.


Hmm. I wish I had written down what I bought. It's coming back pretty slow ... will just keep an eye on it. Here it is (right side of tank) when I first bought it ... can't find a zoomed in version to look at. Thanks lor looking!


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## 1987 (Jan 27, 2007)

Beautiful tank! Good work glad to see it get better.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Hey again - so, a little perplexed (back on anti-depressants) ... had a sudden set back that happened quite literally overnight. Yesterday I changed the water (50%) and added prime. This morning, things did not look so great. Reminiscent of earlier in this journey ...

Since this time I know I did not forget my prime and I am not sure what might have caused this -- something else in the water ? (It's the same water I have been changing with all along and things have been growing great ... maybe something mysterious appeared in the water?) Or might it be completely unrelated to the water change (just happened at the same time). I did another water change today to be safe.

I've only been dosing 2ml of Flourish Iron (not every day but most days).

Take a look and let me know what you think.

The wisteria, which was before reaching for the heavens and very green, is curling and has some dark spots/patches on it. Similiar to what happened during the "toxic period".




















The cambomba, which I have been trimming and replanting weekly, is curling at the tops and closing up (rather than continuing to grow and spread out) and looks sad and fading. The combomba (back) definitely showing issues. The forward green leafed plant still looks pretty good.





















The color of the HC seems to be darker and moving away from the bright green. 










Anubias ... not sure this has changed really.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

As the day has worn on I'm pretty sure this is exactly what I went through last time when I forgot to dose prime during a water change ...

However, this time: I did dose prime. 2ml for 20 gallons of water. 

Should I be dosing more prime, perhaps, if chlorine is the issue ? 

I'm not sure why, this time, things went bonkers when I've been following the same regime (prime and WC) For over a month with no issues. Maybe a surge of cleaning products in the pipes?

Thoughts? 

Thanks


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

Contact city to get water report showing levels of each item in the water. In my city, I have high chlorine levs and its recommended by many to dose x10 the recommended amount.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

tylergvolk said:


> Contact city to get water report showing levels of each item in the water. In my city, I have high chlorine levs and its recommended by many to dose x10 the recommended amount.


All right. I looked online but it appears the detailed report is not available because I could only find chloride ...

Is a "safe" amount of Prime only based on the amount of chemical in the water or can one dose extra (you said 10x - meaning 20ml in my case for 20 gallons) just to be safe until I figure out the water issue?

Thanks


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Sorry for the delayed response, I was driving all night. I've got a medical school interview tomorrow 

I think tylergvolk has it right. Often times water companies will "flush" the system out with higher than normal doses of chlorine, other times they randomly switch to chloramine without telling you which requires 2x more dechlorinator (and sometimes even a different type dechlorinator entirely). 

Since the damage occurred over night that is too fast for a deficiency to occur which leaves a toxicity. Since it happened right after a water change it is likely chloramine/chlorine issues.


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Sorry for the delayed response, I was driving all night. I've got a medical school interview tomorrow
> 
> I think tylergvolk has it right. Often times water companies will "flush" the system out with higher than normal doses of chlorine, other times they randomly switch to chloramine without telling you which requires 2x more dechlorinator (and sometimes even a different type dechlorinator entirely).
> 
> Since the damage occurred over night that is too fast for a deficiency to occur which leaves a toxicity. Since it happened right after a water change it is likely chloramine/chlorine issues.


To me this feels right. The only other difference, that I can see, is that I filled the tank very quickly this last time. Usually, I add prime to the tank and then start filling at a leisurely pace while I putz around and clean the glass and do some other stuff. 

This time, I was in a hurry. Dropped prime and filled it as quickly as I could without uprooting everything. Probably only a minute or two instead of 15 or 20. Might I have flooded too much water before Prime had a chance to catch up? (I don't really understand how it works).

Also- going forward, what's a safe amount to dose for a 50% (20 gallon) water change that can help avoid this and not do any damage?

Thanks


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Wanted folks who had followed this so carefully to know things are going great!

I've put pictures up in the tank journal and will continue to post updates and photos there (since I think my nutrient over-dosing issue is truly resolved).

Thanks again for all your help. Amazing difference not dosing makes!

View update photos here.


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## jeremy va (Dec 22, 2012)

Nice!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Fantastic looking tank! It really has recovered very nicely. Now all you need to do from now on is remember to enjoy (and add the dechlor ).


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## thornomad (Mar 7, 2013)

Zapins said:


> Fantastic looking tank! It really has recovered very nicely. Now all you need to do from now on is remember to enjoy (and add the dechlor ).


You have no idea the amount of paranoia I now possess about adding Prime. Holy wow. I'm not sure how much I should be adding ... so I am doing almost a capful (5 ml) each water change. Heh.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Hehe, well it seems like not dosing too many ferts and making sure to add dechlor has worked out well!

Keep us updated with pictures as the design grows in.


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## Chris_Produces (Feb 19, 2014)

Tank looks great! Any new pics?


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