# Beginning of an Era (6'x3'x2' 300g)



## SouthernCichlids (Jan 20, 2013)

Your tank: front to back - 36"
My largest tank: side to side - 36"

That's just not fair! haha
Congrats man! I'll be following this one


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## denske (Feb 20, 2013)

Damn, can't wait to see this!


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## Higher Thinking (Mar 16, 2011)

Looks like a great opportunity ahead. I would mention though that you will save so much money if you just buy dry ferts and make your own solution.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

Very nice! It's going to take you a whole day to clean those tanks if they were used for reefing.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*denske,*

You're not too terribly far from me. You'll have to come visit them in person someday. 

*hedge_fund,*

I think it might take more than a day. There's a lot of cleaning and scraping to do. Not looking forward to it!

*HigherThinking,*

I work for Brightwell and due to the nature of my position I need to know exactly how our products perform. Therefore, I'm going to be using all supplements we make that are appropriate for this system. 

I don't intend for, or want, this thread to be an ongoing discussion of what form of supplementation is better or worse. Every person has his or her own opinions on the subject and makes their own decisions based on their personal needs or desires for their system. 

This thread is about my personal home hobby tank and I hope we can keep discussion of it limited to those lines.

Thanks,
Phil


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## RcScRs (Oct 22, 2009)

A Dutch in a tank this size will be amazing! I'm not too familiar with Brightwell products, so seeing how they work especially in a large ecosystem will be interesting.

Best of luck,
Justin


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks RcScRs,

I'm really looking forward to it too. There are so many possibilities with a tank this large. I've never been able to grow an Aponogeton, Crinum, or Echinodorus out to full size before. That's something I'm excited about. Trimming's going to be tough, but doable. I'll keep everyone aprised of progress. I think today's going to be the day I clear out the substrate. 

Cheers!


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## Em85 (Apr 16, 2009)

Off to a good start!

How are you going to change the tank from salt to fresh? (aka: what/how do you clean that?)


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## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

Subscribed!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Brightwell seems to have copied stuff off the others, the guy is a marine guy, not a plant guy. It'll cost you an arm and leg to run it and you'd be much better off using basic dry ferts. Unless you want to pay for water......with a tiny bit of fertilizer added to it, and more for shipping the water.

Overflow: Make this a Bean animal style over flow, do this right.

Sump: Sealed inflow, then gentle spill over to the filter socks(I'd run 4 4"-7" dia socks), maybe a 36"x 18" x 18" sized sump.

CO2, likely a Rio or similar 300-600gph feeding into a 20" tall Clear water filter reactor housing. Rio in the mid section of the sump, out flow near the return pump.

A Little Giant 4(1225 gph) ought to do the trick for the return, fairly quiet.

Sediment, your choice. I'd still get the ADA AS. Maybe UP AQUA's soil.

I'd seriously consider a Vortech MP40, maybe a MP60, you'll need the extra flow. You can get decent deals on Reef Central's used goods trading post.


T5's are good, but you'll need two fixtures, say 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 bulbs, one at each end since the tanks are 36" front to back, no single light will make that distance spread. You can DIY or buy a pre made light, I like ATI's with the dimmers.

Spend the $ here and not of fertsroud:

Do one Dutch and then the other nature style you'll work yourself to death otherwise.

Start sourcing wood and rock now.
I sell pallets of wood to one of the vendors who happens to be in your state.
If you need sometime larger, cool, I can add to a pallet order.

Clean the tank with a razor blades and vinegar etc. Use fresh blades often to prevent scrapes. Tooth brush and bleach to get any algae or other stains off.
Open top for both tanks, you'll be in/out of them often, so have good access.

Dual stage nice CO2 regulator set up.
pH meter.
KH test kit(Hanna is a good one)
20lb tanks, I'd keep say 4-6 tanks around.
A box or two of dry ferts, DTPA Fe also.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Em85*,

Prepping this thing's going to be a long process. First I've got to get all the substrate out of there and drain the remaining water. Getting the coraline off the sides is going to mean lots of time in the tank with a couple quality scrapers. I've converted smaller former reef tanks into planted this way. Scraping is good for getting the bulk of the coralline off and CO2 enriched water will dissolve the rest in short order. The glass will be clean in no time.  The real hassle is going to be getting a hundred pounds or so of wet substrate moved over to the other tank.


*Tom*,

I work for Brightwell now so there's an experienced plant person on staff. Chris may be a marine scientist, but he has a thorough understanding of aquatic chemistry and did sound research into plants' needs when developing the Florin line. As an aquatic plant ecologist I am 100% confident in his judgement and have no reservations about using these products as opposed to dosing dry or making my own solutions. I understand your opinion on fertilization and using pre-made products, but please let's not talk about that in this thread. I'm using BA products for a number of good reasons and that's that.

Substrate's going to be BA's FlorinVolcanit Rio Cafe plant substrate. I did my MS research developing substrates for mass culture of aquatic plants and am quite happy with what I've seen about the FlorinVolcanit line. 

Thanks for the hardware suggestions; I'll keep them in mind when choosing gear for the tank. 

I'm only doing one of these as a planted system. The other's going to be a reef. No working myself to death...only "mostly death".



*EVERYONE: Please, let's keep discussion away from how I should fertilize and what materials I "should" use. I'm no newbie to planted aquaria or aquatic plants' needs and I've got my reasons for using what I'm going to be using and won't be doing it any other way.*


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

Looking forward to this.

Even though this is the planted tank, it would still be cool to see updates on the reef too. Sort of like a side by side comparison of choices etc. Would be super neat if both tanks had the same budget and then see which one ends up where. The common "reefs are more expensive" saying along with being told of catching practices is what has kept me out of them. There have been a few large high tech builds that lead me to believe that a primo setup would work both ways with few modifications (different reactors, skimmer instead of co2 etc.) I for one would like to see where the commonalities and differences are.

The only suggestion this amateur can make is:

Put some distance between those two tanks for a nice big flatscreen. Position comfy chairs accordingly.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Jealous.. Enough said 

Subd!

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## Jack Gilvey (Jun 16, 2008)

omg


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

These tanks are going to be amazing! Can't wait to see how they develop.

Semi-related note: Starting a reef journal anywhere that we could follow?

About people making recommendations... that's going to happen because it's a discussion forum. Just take what people say with a grain of sand.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Captain's Log- 7.25.13: The ship has been cleaned and careened. She is now being prepared for bilge removal. 

Cleaning was a lot faster and less labor intensive than I thought it would be. Scooping out hundreds of pounds of substrate took a while, but that was expected. Because the tank's been sitting dry for as long as it has the coralline was very soft and easy to remove. A gentle run-over with a paint scraper then more serious scraping with a piece of scrap acrylic took care of most of it. Wetting and scrubbing with a new dish sponge took care of the rest. Anything that's left over will dissolve in the water or be made quick work of with a glass cleaner. I'm on a well and need to be careful of not using too much water too quickly and burning out the pump so it'll be a few days before there's enough water in the tank to get a good siphoning done. So, without further ado, here are the pics.

First blood! Ceiling and tank rim: 1, Phil: 0.


Lovely old substrate. This is going into the reef eventually.


Cleaned tank. 




Both tanks are getting moved back toward the wall. That little lip in the ceiling above the tank where the outlets are is right at head-height. 



I may put one of the tanks along this wall, we'll see. Having them facing perpendicular to each other would make viewing easier from one chair. Space and access to outlets will dictate placement. If a tank doesn't go there that'll end up being where my qt/hospital and emersed tanks go. 



Thanks for watching,
Phil


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*pandacory*,

Speaking of a budget; things will be different between the systems, for sure. Because I work in the industry I get deals on things and have access to a lot of hardware from previous product testing systems so any comparisons on cost will pretty much be invalidated. 


*somewhatshocked*,

There will be an eventual reef log over at RC when the time comes. My first priority is getting the planted up and going before it gets too cold here to ship plants. Once it's up and running I can start thinking about plans for the reef.

I understand this is a discussion forum and all that. Because of where I work I don't want to get into a discussion of the whys, wherefores, and opinions of supplements and substrates for two reasons. 1- I'm no longer in a situation where I can freely discuss the pros and cons of different options without a) pissing off my employer and b) being seen as using this venue as a means of shilling a product line (I'm most definitely NOT!); and 2- this is still my hobby and I want to be here sharing my hobby experiences with other hobbyists in a friendly and relaxed environment. Having to explain my reasons and justify them every other post isn't what I consider relaxing or fun. 

So here goes (hopefully) one last time. Yeah, I work for Brightwell Aquatics and yes, I get all our products for free. It's very cost effective for me to use them so that's the route I'm going to take. Due to the nature of my job I need to be intimately familiar with our products and using them in my personal systems is the best way for me to accomplish that. End note.

Now, let's continue talking about our favorite subject...planted aquariums!


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## Bruce_S (Jul 26, 2012)

I'm going to assume you're in the basement & on the slab with those bad boys, 'cause I know if I tried to place one like that in my living room ... it'd be in the basement in pretty short order!

Those tanks hold magnificent potential, and I'm looking forward to seeing just what you do with them!

~Bruce


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks Bruce! Yes, they're in the basement on a slab. I'm looking forward to seeing what I do with them too! I'm honestly not quite sure how it's all going to work out, but it'll work out somehow.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

What kind of Co2 supply are you thinking of getting for this monster? Regulator and such, I ask because the bubbles per second must be insane. 

Also, you said T5? What bulbs and spectrum?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Flyinghellfish, 

I'm not quite sure of the brand lighting I'll be using. We've got quite a few things stashed in the storage building that I've been told are fair game. I need to go through and do a sort-and-see. I've also been thinking of going with a T-5 and Halide combo since the tank's braced. As far as regulators go, I'm still looking into those. I'll give specifics as soon as I figure them out.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

You should check out JasonNZ's 1400L build for sump/overflow ideas. I really like how he did the overflow via bulkheads...your drill locations look like you could do something similar.

Looking forward to your sump/co2/lighting choices....and more pics! 

Subscribed.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Crazymittens, yeah, that's a great build and I might be able to do something like that with the overflow. The sump is insane! Something like that might have to wait until I've got some real money to spend.  One of my past times is designing sumps and such. I've got a lot of ideas, but I'm not quite sure what will end up being best for this system. His build is giving me some good ideas though. Thanks for the tip.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Sumps don't have to cost a huge amount...I think this is a bias enforced by all the rad 'custom acrylic sump' build threads.  

I built mine using a 30G tank and some acrylic adhered with silicone. The tank-to-sump plumbing, on the other hand....this can get out of hand. PVC is expensive, I'd say it was 40-50% of my total build cost. Then again, I did the referenced 'beananimal' design (which is awesome).


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

crazymittens said:


> Sumps don't have to cost a huge amount...I think this is a bias enforced by all the rad 'custom acrylic sump' build threads.
> 
> I built mine using a 30G tank and some acrylic adhered with silicone. The tank-to-sump plumbing, on the other hand....this can get out of hand. PVC is expensive, I'd say it was 40-50% of my total build cost. *Then again, I did the* *referenced 'beananimal' design* (which is awesome).


hi crazymittens,

i'm kinda new and hadn't heard of this until tom referenced it above. after some searching, it seems bulletproof. how big is your overflow in relationship to the tank?

to op, will you consider a refugium? i've got it in my head that i should use one, but am wondering if i'm simply duplicating things in a planted tank. your thoughts?

thanks,


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

I have a quick question(s) in regards to the tank, what thickness glass, were they custom? Manufacturered? Etc... Cause sometimes if a large amount of glass shows up at my house I just tell the wife it was a happy mistake

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

NWA, I'm pretty sure they're manufactured. The glass is about 1/2 inch thick so they're SOLID. Thankfully I live by myself and don't have to worry about someone else approving my pet projects.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Not to derail the thread too much...

My overflow is 4x5x36" (runs length of tank). Could have been ~15-20% smaller if I'd used smaller pipe. My drains are 1.5"...huge overkill for a 50/30G setup, but I never ever have to worry about clogs.  It's a bit large, compared to the tank, but filtration/skimming is killer. Further...I think my setup is technically good for up to 150 gallons...so I can re-use the piping as I upgrade display tanks.

A note on 'refugium'...for planted tanks I believe it's unnecessary unless you use it as a fry pond or similar safe haven. In reef tanks I think it's used primarily to add space for coral growth & additional biofiltration. I'm just going off internet research though, so feel free to correct my misinformation.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*crazymittens*,

I've built sumps out of tanks in the past and think it's a great option. For this system though, I do want to go with a custom built acrylic sump using a design I've come up with. I have certain dimensions and internal design features I want to include. If I'm going to make a sump for a tank like this I'm going to do it all the way.

I've considered doing an overflow like that, if only so I can make it slimmer to take up less real estate in the tank. I've got some thinking to do about how well I'll be able to make something like that which will hold up for years' of use. The last thing I need is a failed DIY overflow dumping 100+ gallons of water on the floor and burning up a pump when it drains the sump. 

A pair of 2" drains will handle anything I care to throw at them.  

*trailsnale*,

I'm not going to be doing a refugium per-se considering the display is a much larger "refugium", aka plant filter, than anything that a sump could provide. I do want a space in the sump to grow out plants and maintain a breeding colony of shrimp. In that sense there will be a refugium, yes.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, as you're probably aware...if you don't provide proper screening, your sump will turn into a shrimp refugium regardless of design. I found that leaf gutter guard finally stopped critters from being washed down...at least in my overflow's case.

Looking forward to an awesome sump!!


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

crazymittens, thanks for your reply. i like your overkill approach!


phil, i've had that suspicion about fw refugiums being duplicative. there is a youtube video re a discus guy who never does water changes to a show tank that is pretty persuasive and makes me think 'sure, why not?!.' i do like your idea re the shrimp 'refuge' and that may be worth the price of admission for me as well.

my apologies for any drift re ba.

love the build and looking forward to updates.

thanks,


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

To be honest, more plants is better for filtration, so if you can swing the space, definitely not detrimental.

I'm also in the no water changes camp...yay sump. Yay plants.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

No worries about the "chatter" folks, we're here to talk shop and I enjoy it. It's good to get other peoples' perspectives as well. Even with as many tanks as I've set up in the past I still have a lot to learn and new ideas come up every day. Chatter away!

I think an opposite cycle "refugium" would be a viable option for some systems and some people's needs. In my case (and probably yours too) I've got to fertilize to keep nutrient levels high enough. That alone negates the need for a plant filter in my mind. 

*crazymittens*,

You're absolutely right! I'm planning on shrimp colonizing the sump "passively". I'll have some sort of mesh over the overflow box to keep out the big stuff and fish, but any shrimp that want to go live in the sump are more than welcome to. I'm considering keeping altums and/or dwarf cichlids in here...maaaaybe, and if I do I'll need a safe place for the shrimpies to make babies to replace the ones that get eaten.


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## hedge_fund (Jan 1, 2006)

I am actually looking forward to seeing the whole Brightwell Aquatics line.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Me too, hedge_fund. Looking forward to documented usage. I prefer using dry products because I have to pay for them. But if I got my goods for free? I'd be all over it.

OP: Will you be going with a background on either tank?

I've been toying with a similarly sized tank (for shrimp and tiny Cories), though only 8-10" deep, so I'm really intrigued by this all. Can't wait to see how things develop.

Hope you'll be linking to and profiling all the products you end up using. Which FlorinVolcanit Rio Cafe will you be using? Have always wanted to try that line.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Hedge_Fund*,

I am too! I won't be able to give out proprietary info, such as exact formulation etc, but I'll give as much info, in the form of how I see things performing, as I can. I'll be listing exact weekly dosages of each product and test results for concentration in the tank as often as I can take them. One thing I'm particularly interested in is what the uptake rates in a system like this really are. Assuming 50% daily uptake, i.e. EI, clearly works, but my curiousity is begging for a more concrete data set. 

*somewhatshocked*,

Yes, I'll be doing a background of black styrofoam in the planted tank. I'm toying with the idea of making a 3D background of foam, dry rock, and cement in the reef. It really depends on the type of corals I want to keep and how I can manage flow dynamics. I'm envisioning a largely LPS and softie tank with a smattering of my favorite SPS for good measure. 

Right now I'm leaning toward using the F (~3mm) grain size. I considered using the M on the bottom with F on top, but I can't stand seeing mixed grains and I know in time some of the M will end up on top as plants get pulled up and moved around. It's a purely personal aesthetic decision and has no basis in the performance of the different sizes. If I were going with more of an NA style rather than Dutch style aquascape I would definitely be using the M below with F and XF on top in a similar manner that ADA layers Power Sand and the two sizes of AS. 

Likewise, the choice of Cafe over Escuro is an aesthetic one. I've seen both and the black is really nice, but I prefer the dark brown color. 

For product info you can go here: http://www.brightwellaquatics.com/products/ 
Scroll down the right side to find the product you want. Clicking on the Technical button will provide you with all the information that I could give you on what's in what and such. 

Thanks for watching!


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Now that I've had a few hours to think about it, I believe you should just post about 10,000 photos of the tanks and such in order to keep our appetites sated.

For the reef... it would be amazing to see huge mounds of different Zoas spread throughout the tank. Especially if you have tons of flow and movement of species that, well, move. 

The tank is so big that you could have dozens of marine shrimp without ever running into issues. 

Just think of all the tiny hermit crabs you'll be able to keep! Literally thousands.

Freshwater... 3mm will be nice. The tank is so huge that I think any grain size would be relative, honestly. But definitely prefer going with a set size like 3mm. Will you maybe be doing a giant school of Corydoras habrosus? Maybe 100 of them so I can be so jealous I can't breathe?


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

very excited to see where this will go! I hope whenvere I get my own house it has a basement where I can turn it into a fish room without the wifey killing me lol


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

LOL, 10,000 pictures? I can take lots of pictures of the cleaned tanks right now, but I doubt that'll be terribly interesting. 

A large school of corys does sound fun and is something I've been considering. 

For the reef, I won't have many, if any colonial polyps. Those things are too much of a pest. They grow too quickly and I can't easily direct their growth to fit in with an aquascape. There are some types that I like, but no Zooanthus or Palythoa species. DEFINITELY no Xenia or its allies. *subject to change at the whim of the tank owner. Movement will be provided by the Euphyllia and Softies like Finger and Leather corals. Oh yeah, lots and lots of shrimp. I don't want any really large fish. Rather, I'd prefer a school or three of smaller guys like Anthias and the neat little nano fish available these days.


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## mpkee007 (Jan 23, 2013)

Hurry and and get that tank planted and take some pictures. Then you can take a day off to go to Knoebals! 

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*mpkee007*,

Getting the tank up and running is going to depend on a number of factors, not the least of which is getting enough people to my place to replace the stands and get the tanks moved to their new spot. Then of course there's the plumbing and overflow making and light hanging and CO2 running...and so on. I'm thinking this installation is going to take longer than I thought. I've got so many things I want to do, some of which need to be done before I put water in the tank. I can get away with waiting for a sump as long as I've got the overflow installed first. I really want to do everything the right way the first time, so I think I'm going to have to take more time to plan. We'll see. 

Whereabouts in NEPA are you?


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## mpkee007 (Jan 23, 2013)

Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Once I get things up and running you should come down and see it in person. Are there any other plant heads up in that area?


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## mpkee007 (Jan 23, 2013)

Not sure. I don't think too many. They are more towards the Harrisburg/York area.

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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Shoot if I Was up there I would be helping!! Setting tanks up is half the fun!!!

I wish I had your room and just one of those tanks... 

Honestly today at work was thinking about your tanks, if it was me in my outlandish ways I would setup catwalks of some kind over them! It's an out there idea but when you go to do service could lay down above the tanks and do maintenance 

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

A catwalk? I barely have room to walk through the room without bumping my head on lightbulbs. It's not a particularly tall basement... The best I'll be able to do is make a little riser behind the tank to stand on for deep-tank work.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Phil Edwards said:


> A catwalk? I barely have room to walk through the room without bumping my head on lightbulbs. It's not a particularly tall basement... The best I'll be able to do is make a little riser behind the tank to stand on for deep-tank work.


As I said an out there idea!! I just know dealing with my 36"x30" that it can be a stretch trying to get around.

I know I am repeating what has been said but can't wait To see how these progress!

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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I can't wait either. I'm pretty sure that I'll be going through the storage building to find parts and pieces that I need tomorrow. With any luck I'll find a nice overflow and plumbing parts so I can get that glued in and curing. Cross your fingers!


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Can I come parouse the shed to?? Lol.

Sure I don't need to say it, but measure twice cut once! Good luck 

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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

What?! No Zoas?!

In a tank so huge, they'd be easy to maintain. Especially if they were on their own mounds of rock and could be easily cut apart. They could take over a square foot of your tank and you'd never notice.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

No zoas. No, no, no. I hate those things. The only place I'd want them is in a nano designed specifically for them. They're the marine version of Riccia, imo...beautiful in a setup designed for them, but a foul and obnoxious pest in any other system they find their way into.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Phil Edwards said:


> No zoas. No, no, no. I hate those things. The only place I'd want them is in a nano designed specifically for them. They're the marine version of Riccia, imo...beautiful in a setup designed for them, but a foul and obnoxious pest in any other system they find their way into.


I got a kick out of that. The marine version of riccia. :hihi:

How true indeed.

I'm looking forward to seeing these tanks evolve. I think you should keep up all posted here on the reef tank also. After all many of us were or still are reefers. I don't envy you at all having to do maintenance on a tank that deep especially the front to back depth.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

NWA,

In my case it's measure thrice...and then one more time for good measure. If I don't, something goes wrong. Always.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Quick and small update. I found a nice low-profile overflow that will work nicely for my needs once it's covered with growing plants. Here we are with the overflow installed and a big Korallia on the right pane. It's getting closer! Chances are really good that I'll have to go with the original plan of using canisters to start with and wait for a decent sump. That's no big deal. As long as the overflow's installed properly (and capped with quality ball valves) the tank can run indefinitely with the canisters so the real plumbing won't have to be a rush job. 

The tank with overflow, Korallia 4, and lights. They're all 24" 4 bulb fixtures. Need to get hanging kits and plant appropriate bulbs for them.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

I have the same light! Well I have 1 and you have many, lol.

Are you planning on orienting them front to back, or along the length of the tank?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*pandacory*,

The plan is to align them front to back to get the most coverage. I just hope 22" bulbs will spread enough light for a 36" area. How long is our tank and, if it's greater than the length of the fixture, how's the light spread in areas with no coverage?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I think I'm most looking forward to seeing the substrate go into the planted tank.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*somewhatshocked*,

You and me both. Unfortunately that depends on other peoples' timing and availability. These behemoths need to be moved into their permanent home before I can put anything in them.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Since there are sumpy people watching this thread...is there a 'somewhat concise' theory for freshwater sump design?

Obviously everyone's situation is different, but maybe a list of 'necessities for FW sump design' should be documented. Perhaps I am overcomplicating things...but most of my searching hasn't come up with a consensus on design. Tom's post earlier in the thread is probably the closest I've seen.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

I ran it successfully on a standard 29g high tech (30" length) at about 16" above the top. So I guess that is about 34" or so above the substrate. I really like the freshwater bulb combo they sell with it. I don't have a ton of different bulb experience, but it is on the greener side vs. 5000k t8s or the colormax/67000k combo I am currently running. It makes turquoise rainbows and their breeding dance really pop. The panda cories dark spots look distict, as well as the markings on harlequins. Tiger lotus looked more magenta than the paler red of my current bulbs, but that could be other factors also.

It grew hc and glosso end to end With no noticable problems. I am also not the best gardener by any stretch of the imagination. I dont think it was incredibly focused but I didn't complain about spill either, but it has been some time since I've run it. It's sitting in my closet right now since I am running low med light 20 longs and my 29 got converted into a sump.

I am pretty sure they make 36" version of the same light. The only thing you'll have to watch is that they have a built in timer so be sure to coordinate properly. That is one of those little things I would probably overlook and then let it drive me crazy for like 6 weeks before fixing it. Lol.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*crazymittens*,

I would say a good plant sump needs to have the following characteristics:

1. A sealable input chamber. Even if it's just using duct tape to cover the seams where the tank water's entering, it should be sealable.

2. Good room for biological and mechanical media.

3. As much reservoir space as you can manage given your space limitations.

Everything else is just bells and whistles. 10 years ago I had a super ghetto DIY sump using a plastic trash can with a lid as a filter chamber. I just drilled a bunch of holes in it and stuck it in a 20 long. A submersible pump ran the line into the tank and it worked pretty well for the times. A few years later I used the same 20 long, but this time added glass panes to make baffles. I drilled a hole in one side for the effluent input, had that run over a baffle into a chamber with a biomedia container made out of eggcrate on a 3/4" pvc riser and had filter padding over that. The remaining 70% of the tank was reservoir. This time I had an external filter and drilled into the side. because there was no vertical downdraft I was able to cover it with a sheet of glass. That sump worked very well for a long time. 

Hope that helps a little. Sorry I don't have pictures, that was a long time and a couple computers ago.

Check out UGDags' thread, he's got a great sump for one that's commercially made.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

crazymittens said:


> Since there are sumpy people watching this thread...is there a 'somewhat concise' theory for freshwater sump design?
> 
> Obviously everyone's situation is different, but maybe a list of 'necessities for FW sump design' should be documented. Perhaps I am overcomplicating things...but most of my searching hasn't come up with a consensus on design. Tom's post earlier in the thread is probably the closest I've seen.


The only things I can really think of from putting my sump together and running it for the last year, well, 2 sumps, but we don't need to talk about how I broke the firat one while moving:

1. Build it out of acrylic! All those glass dividers get heavy quick!
2. If the downpipe enters from the top, make sure there is a section of static water height. Terminate the drain just under the surface. If it goes too deep it is too much back pressure for a siphon to form, and if it is not beneath the water line at all states of operation, you will get gurgling noise.
3. I hate foam blocks. The next sump I run will either have filter socks or just a prefilter over the return pump feeding through an inline polisher like a nu clear or similar. 
4. Don't hard plumb the return line through the lid. This seems like a good idea at first since you want to seal the sump. I thought I would just seal the whole thing and feed the return plumbing through a bulkhead. Big mistake! That is the biggest source of vibration and an easily avoided noise source.

Thats all I can think of right now. I have notes somewhere, but hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.


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## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

The BA planted tank substrate was some of the best looking planted tank substrate that I have seen. Looking forward to seeing this monster come together.


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

crazymittens said:


> Since there are sumpy people watching this thread...is there a 'somewhat concise' theory for freshwater sump design?
> 
> Obviously everyone's situation is different, but maybe a list of 'necessities for FW sump design' should be documented. Perhaps I am overcomplicating things...but most of my searching hasn't come up with a consensus on design. *Tom's post earlier in the thread is probably the closest I've seen.*


*
*

totally agree! these sump discussions have been very informative. rbarn has a great project going as well that i've been following...he's dropping some coin.


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

pandacory said:


> The only things I can really think of from putting my sump together and running it for the last year, well, 2 sumps, but we don't need to talk about how I broke the firat one while moving:
> 
> 1. Build it out of acrylic! All those glass dividers get heavy quick!
> 2. If the downpipe enters from the top, make sure there is a section of static water height. Terminate the drain just under the surface. If it goes too deep it is too much back pressure for a siphon to form, and if it is not beneath the water line at all states of operation, you will get gurgling noise.
> ...


pandacory, are you referring to the poret type blocks used for bio filtration or the generic types used for mechanical-say, initially in a wet/dry chamber?

thanks,


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I got a good look at our substrates yesterday. I've got to say I'm really excited about them. I'll take pics of the different sizes and colors today. I still don't know when I'll actually get the tank moved and filled, but it's a step in the right direction.


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## dewalltheway (Jan 19, 2005)

Looks like it is going to be a great build to watch, Phil! Subscribed

Also, congrats on your new job opportunity. Having a satisfying job you like makes all the difference in the world.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks my friend, I appreciate the kind words. I really hope I can make this setup all that it can be. There's too much possibility with a tank like this to half-ass it. It would be an injustice to the hobby! haha


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

It's not quite the update I was hoping to give, but here's a little something. After reading up on the various styles of overflow and downdrafts I've chosen to go with a modified beananimal system. It seems the best option for the hardware I've got and hope to have. Because the flow through the tank's not going to be as heavy as a reef I'm fairly confident that a single 1.5" siphon draft (downturned elbow) will be able to handle all the flow the eventual pump will put out. The upturned elbow will be left open for flood control in case of blockage and to allow me to tune the siphon so that it's silent. Due to the type of overflow I've got and the placement of the holes there's going to be some noise, but it'll be fairly quiet. I don't mind a soothing trickle or gurgle.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Thanks for the input on the sump stuff, guys - I found a great post over at the tombarrreport.com forum that goes through a ton of scenarios and designs. I'll continue the sump discussion in my 125G thread.

Phil, you've gone that far, why not just add the third emergency drain?  Never worry about a clog again. That being said, if your GPH is truly that low, then you have tons of drainage. I really enjoy the ability for the 2nd downturn drain to be 100% blocked and the system still function like normal with no intervention.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Crazymittens,

I'm limited to two since that's what the tank already has. I'm not in a position to be able to drill a third hole. I may be changing the main siphon elbow and line from 1.5" to 1" and leaving the second as 1.5 to handle both the slight overflow inherent in the BA design and as an emergency flood control line. I've used a similar design with a pair of 1.5" Durso downdrafts in the past on my 225. Only that time I had them tied into a single drain line, which wasn't as efficient or quiet as the separate line design is.

As far as sumps go, I've been refining a design over the years and have what I think is the perfect large planted tank sump design. I just need to find someone to make it for me (I can't work acrylic at that level) at a price I can afford. Keep your fingers crossed!!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Substrate! What you see in the pic are samples of Rio Escuro (black) at 1, 3, and 5mm sizes, and Rio Cafe (brown) at 3 and 5mm sizes. There wasn't an open bag of 1mm Rio Cafe for me to grab a sample from. All soils come in darker and stay dark as long as their container is sealed. These have been in open bags for a week or so and have started to dry out a bit. I'm very impressed at the grains' cohesion even after a week with some drying. I'd originally thought to go with 3mm only, but I don't think it's going to work out very well. Instead, I'm going to use the 5mm (same size as the typical grains in the "Name Brand" stuff we all know) and cap it off with 3mm. I'm tempted to use 3mm only in the first 6 inches of the tank to give small species like HC, Hairgrass, and Glosso a better chance of rooting strongly. We'll see. It's all dependent on how much of which kind I can get my hands on. A uniform 4" deep substrate in this tank is 6 cubic feet of material...that's a LOT to take off a pallet at one time.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Nice!! Good idea to use 5mm on the bottom, will mean ultimately less material required, yes?

Forgot that you only had two drill points...you could do that overflow box like JasonNZ, but then have the full Beananimal inside the exterior box...? Just throwing ideas around.

Guessing you're doing DSM to get the carpet started then?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

crazymittens,

I may end up doing just what you described. It depends on finding a good glass shop and confidence in my ability to build an external overflow that won't break and drain a hundred gallons or more onto the floor. I'm fairly certain it'll be a matter of many months before I'll be able to get a suitable sump made. That'll give me a lot of time to plan and practice. In the meantime I'll be using some big huge Eheims to filter what'll be a plant grow out tank. Due to the extreme size of the tank (18 sq. ft. area) I won't be doing a dry start. In fact, once I get the substrate in there I'll probably just circulate water for a couple weeks so I can monitor nutrient release. That's something I've been very curious about ever since people started using this type of material and reporting heavy algae issues at the start. 

I'm getting a strong suspicion that this build is going to take a lot longer than I thought it was going to at first. It will eventually be a shrine to aquarium tech, but the road will probably be a long one.


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## pandacory (Apr 18, 2011)

you could take the backup drain and put it at an angle (opening facing up, with bottom of the opening just below the surface at normal operating level).

That way it will let the trickle happen at the normal operating level, then if it gets to the top of the emergency drain, a siphon will form and should drain quicker than gravity.

I have done this a few times on hydro grow beds that only had 2 holes. works fine and doesn't make much noise at my pipe size since the change from trickle to siphon and back again is relatively gradual.

Just don't glue the 90 to the bulkhead so you can play with the angle once the rest of the plumbing is connected and the tank is running.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

hahaha, yeah, don't worry. I won't be gluing those elbows any time soon.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, Jason did his out of acrylic of some sort - IIRC that can be chemically bonded. I personally would prefer that to glass/silicone...although, really, if you think about it an external overflow made of glass/silicone is just a small aquarium...same manufacturing principles.  Just be sure to use nice thick glass that's cleaned/prepared properly.

About the monitoring...will you be doing any sort of automated monitoring? Or remote monitoring? Drool...I would love to be at work and have a mini-site or app that told me current water conditions... haha so cool.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Oh, btw, Phil - if you send me some dimensions, I can do some prelim sketchup for ya, something to get you started.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil, you will want to use both the over flow pipes, not just try and use one and an emergency.

To do this, you will NOT use ball valves, rather, you will simple adjust the standpipe height so that 95-99% of the water goes down siphon no#1. 

Then adjust the standpipe of no#2 so that only a tiny trickle goes down, but, if the 1# clogs or backs up for any reason, you still have 95% of siphon no# available for emergencies.

Not much will clog a 1.5" siphon.

Sump materials: Sponge blocks can be had from Swisstropical.com

Get the 4" thick 20 ppi size, this is plenty.
If you can use an inflow area for the degassing area that's sealed, then goes down under a weir, then back up, then you can us ethe filter socks, I'd use 100 micron 7" socks, say 2-4 of them.

Then the sponge, then the CO2/heater, filter return pump.

CO2: likely a Rio 2500 + their needle wheel and a larger Clear 4 x 10 or 4 x 20 filter cartridge housing to catch the mist, then simply have a loop in the sump filter area with the Rio upstream from the out flow(place this next to the return pump)

CO2: Dual stage regs, a 20 lb tank(buy 2-3).

Measurign CO2 rates: Use the inverted ml flask method. Measure mls of gas/min, or per 5 or 10 minutes, then you have a consistent FAR MORE accurate method for larger high volume CO2 dosing rates. Unlike Bubbles per second, this is a standardized method. I think I'm the only bone head to even suggest it in the hobby. But it works really well.

I needed to switch a regulator and CO2 system, so I did not want to have to tweak and toy with the new much, so this was a simple solution.

Relative pH drop is another.

The pH drop was exact when I used the gas mls per 5 minute method as the old reg that produced a wonderful growth rate. No significant difference. 

I'd go with 3 and 5 mm. 

You can also add a steel stainless wire mesh , a U shaped piece over the overflows to keep Amano shrimp and most of the smaller shrimp fry and smaller fish out and you can simply pull it off and knock the leaves off to clean it.

Ebay or a few folks here sell the wire mesh.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Tom*,

I've already got my plumbing planned out and will be going with the design as previously mentioned. One 1.5" will be the main siphon with the second, upturned, elbow acting as both the trickle and emergency outlet. 1.5" is overkill for the amount of flow this tank will have so I'm confident the design will handle anything that comes, as is. I will be using ball valves as well because I like the control and modularity that comes with using True Unions when hard plumbing a filter.

As I said previously, I've been using sealed sumps since 2001 and have been tweaking designs over that period. I've come up with what I believe is an ideal sump design for large planted aquaria and will be using that. The only things I've been lacking are access to suitable acrylic shops and the money to implement my design. Number 1's taken care of and I'm just waiting on quotes from a number of quality manufacturers.

Pictures and a thorough discussion of the design and discussion of tests I have planned will come once I have the sump in-hand. 

I agree with you on the mL/minute method for CO2 measurement. Having lost weeks of my life staring at bubbles rising in Guelph Permeameters while quantifying hydraulic conductivity I fully appreciate the value of displacement over time quantification methods; especially when there's a lot of gas being thrown at a system.

I think bubbles/second backed up with pH probe measurements is a fine method for systems 90g or smaller. It's a well documented method that a lot of people are comfortable with. As scientists we both want something more discrete and scientifically sound/accepted though, don't we? Personally, I'm not satisfied unless I can get a good set of repetitions and a tight standard deviation.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*crazymittens*,

Thanks for the offer, but I'd prefer to take care of this myself. I will say this though, the dimensions I'm hoping to go with are 60"x30"x18". Cost will be a factor. I'd prefer 24" high, but the stand I'll be using won't allow for much overhead clearance at that height. That's a really big sump and is probably overkill, in fact, I know it is; but I want a filter that has a lot of room for media and will give me complete customizability. The design includes a large reservoir section as well. 

I prefer a very large reservoir section for a couple reasons. 1: that much water in reserve will allow me to not worry about running dry while away for extended periods. I don't trust ATOs at all. 2: a large reservoir is a perfect area for growing out plants and breeding shrimp. With a tank of this size a single stem or small bunch of stems will get lost in the masses. I want to be able to see clearly how a given species will do in the system before messing around with the display. Also, I want to be able to switch out groups of at least 15 stems or a single established and growing specimen plant when playing with aquascaping.

Regarding overflows and such, I may play around with making an internal glass overflow rather than chance problems with an external one. I'm confident in my PVC working abilities but less so with my glass aquarium making skills.

External control and monitoring may come in the future, we'll see. That's an area I don't really feel the need to delve except as a "wouldn't it be cool?" feature. If a manufacturer wants to give me the hardware to do it then I'll go that route. Until such a time there are many other things I want to spend my money on. Automation's fun and is a cool goal to work for, I'll give you that. I will eventually be using dosing pumps for supplement addition, for sure. Dosing liters of supplements every day or every other day will soon get tiring and I want the stability of daily dosing a set amount for this system. Having stable inputs of light, CO2, and ferts will allow me to do some studies and comparisons I've wanted to do for years.


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## plecostomouse (Jun 9, 2011)

well after reading this whole thing i can certainly say a few things.
im looking forward to photos.
cant wait for things to come together.
oh did i mention im looking forward to photos?

subscribed, this should be amazing!


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## BoxxerBoyDrew (Oct 16, 2005)

Can't wait to see it all come together, either!!!

AWESOME TANK SIZE!!! You are a very luck man!!! 

Subscribed 4 SURE!!!

Best of Luck to Ya!!!
Drew


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, are you able to share the sump design premises? (That's what...100G sump? Hahaha awesome...)

I think the fabrication process would be rendered pretty bulletproof with quality materials, proper surface preparation, and a jig/clamps. I might add some triangular gussets to vertically support an external overflow box.

Now to mosey back a page and really read Tom's post...


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks guys, I appreciate it. I promise I'll get plants growing in this tank just as soon as I can. The planned hardware setup may take a bit longer to come to fruition though. 

Photo documentation will be profuse. Threads aren't worth anything without pics, eh?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*crazymittens*,

The main premise of the sump is to have the entire filtration section be sealable and to maintain laminar flow through the whole thing. Slow and laminar flow enables better biological and chemical filtration. Water from the tank will be entering from the side rather than the top and will move through the media chambers in a sinusoidal fashion rather than a purely vertical one. Because the outlets are on the side and the sump's made from acrylic, it's possible to create a sealed media section with a brace around the edges with screws every so often. Add a little foam or weather stripping and you've got a screw-down lid that is totally sealed from the outside. Pressure regulation will be accomplished by drilling a hole into the chamber with a gas fitting and a piece of semi-rigid tubing going from there into the reservoir near the CO2 chopper-pump to get sucked up and dissolved back into the water. 

The goal of the design (particularly for the biomedia chamber) is for water to enter from the bottom and be forced upward through the whole column before gently flowing out the top into the next chamber, or vice versa. This will be accomplished by wide notches cut into either the bottom or top of each baffle. Envision a wide notch in the top of a rubbermaid box with water entering at the bottom. Although there's a current at the very bottom, the tendency is for the whole column of water to move upwards and overflow, rather than a stream to move through and jettison out. Maximizing evenness of flow and contact time with media is the name of the game. 

Each chamber will be dedicated to one type of media, such as Poret Foam or bioballs. There will be no stacking or mixing of media. This will allow for easy exhange of media if required.

I'm working on a (rough) Sketchup diagram now. There are other design features that will be incorporated into the final product that I might not be able to get into a rendering well enough. 


Before anyone chimes in to say "You don't need to do all that BS! My way is the best or only way!" let me say this. I want this sump to be able to handle anything I care to throw at it and I have certain preferences that I'm going to indulge with this project. Yeah, I could just throw a trashcan full of plastic floss into an aquarium; duct tape and/or silicone the hell out of it and call it a filter. I've done that and it worked well enough at the time. These days I want a real bang-up, all the bells and whistles, sump that will be able to do everything I could ask of it as far as keeping an aquarium is concerned. 

I want to be able to look at it and think "OMFG that's one badass piece of hardware!".


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

hi phil,

curious as to your thoughts on wet/dry and refugiums as types of filters to include in your sump.

i've seen a few references to refugiums as great filters (not necessarily to grow additional plants or hide extra critters-which everyone quickly points out). kinda wondering if its worth the space to you.

i like your ideas on specific chambers/media types especially for cleaning purposes.

thanks,


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Well this is an interesting development...I've read a lot on how oxygenation is very important (well, beneficial) for the bacteria.

So going on the theme of 'sump that will be able to do everything you ask of it'...you're saying that maximizing water contact with media is more beneficial than turbulent, oxygenated flow via a drip system? i.e. provides significantly better biofiltration? Is this a principle that will only work on a very long sump like you are specifying?

Hm...guess I'll have to wait for your sketchups!


trailsnale, I think he mentioned that a refugium will be part of this.


> 2: a large reservoir is a perfect area for growing out plants and breeding shrimp. With a tank of this size a single stem or small bunch of stems will get lost in the masses. I want to be able to see clearly how a given species will do in the system before messing around with the display. Also, I want to be able to switch out groups of at least 15 stems or a single established and growing specimen plant when playing with aquascaping.


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## trailsnale (Dec 2, 2009)

my miss crazymittens... thanks!.

still curious as to the filtering benefits of a refuge or is it merely a duplication of the 'tank?' seems one can always load up on more bio filtration within the confines of a sump. wonder if an alternative filtration adds to the overall mix.

crazymittens, agreed w/ you, looking forward to the build!!!

thanks,







crazymittens said:


> Well this is an interesting development...I've read a lot on how oxygenation is very important (well, beneficial) for the bacteria.
> 
> So going on the theme of 'sump that will be able to do everything you ask of it'...you're saying that maximizing water contact with media is more beneficial than turbulent, oxygenated flow via a drip system? i.e. provides significantly better biofiltration? Is this a principle that will only work on a very long sump like you are specifying?
> 
> ...


*
*


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Filtering benefits of the refugium is simply due to:

More plants
More water
More surface area for bacteria

I think...?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*trailsnale*,

In my opinion a freshwater refugium is worthless in a planted system as a form of filtration. The main display in a heavily planted tank will be many times the plant filter as a small section in a sump. An open reservoir section is useful for growing out plants, breeding desirable animals, keeping hardware out of the tank, and as an evaporation buffer. 

A plant filter IS useful for lightly planted fish displays such as the discus one you mentioned previously or a system with a balance of plants and fish such as Diana Walstad described. 


*crazymittens*,

As long as the water maintains oxygenation, yes, slow laminar flow is preferrable to fast turbulent flow in bio filters. Increased dwell time means the microbes will be able to draw out more of what they're there to eat than if it was fast. The idea behind drip style wet-dry filters is regular turn over of microbes. The older ones will get knocked off and get run through the system while the more robust bugs stick onto the media. That way the fastest growing (and eating) bugs are the ones with access to the dirty water. Filter companies and hobbyists have been refining the design for a long time and they do filter well. I just want better. 

Because I'm doing every thing I can to reduce gas exchange in this system anaerobiosis in the filter is a possibility. It's s tricky balance between flow and media volume. Too-slow flow or too much media and the O2 will get stripped by the filter in addition to plants and fish during lights out. To be on the safe side I'll probably end up running an airstone or venturi powerhead in the reservoir during lights out. 

Sketchup isn't doing what I want it to do. I don't think the free version can handle my high level requests. Either that or it's user idiocy. Probably the latter.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I've discovered a design flaw with the beananimal drain system when applied to planted tanks. There's an open channel that allows for gas exchange. Even if you use a sealed sump, it's not truly sealed. In my case it'll mean there's a 1.5" vent in the sump. This may not be a big deal as long as turbulence in the first chamber is kept to a minimum. As long as the primary drain discharges fully below the water's surface and there's not a lot of agitation no worries. If that's not the case then some changes will have to be made.

Possible solutions-
1- Turn both intakes downward and turn them both into Durso style downdrafts. This might not be a bad thing overall. Two over-large downdrafts should be fairly quiet and the oxygenation of the water would be nice during lights out. Because this system is designed to pull air through the pipe it will reduce or prevent CO2 escape. Discharging into a sealed sump would therefore be effective. The only drawback is noise; which, in my experience, isn't bad when dialed in properly. 

2- Close the valve on the open channel enough so that the water moving through it creates a vaccuum then hope the primary siphon never backs up. Not the best idea...

3. Use the airline originally intended as a pressure release to create a venturi strong enough that air is only drawn through the open channel, not exiting. That seems to be the best option in my mind. The only trick is using a pump strong enough to pull enough air through a large pipe without causing turbulence somewhere else in the sump. Running the pressure line into the CO2 chop-pump seems to be the best way to accomplish this. 

4. Leave it as-is and hope for the best. 


The good thing is any of these changes will be easy to make so any testing/trial and error will be a simple matter. #3 will require a little work, but it's still not horrible. 

Thoughts or input?

I want to say that the original design is perfect for what it was created for; reefs and tanks where agitation and off-gassing are desirable. Only the extra consideration of wanting to minimize gas exchange is putting a wrinkle in things.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

I would leave as is, I ran a modified bean animal as in no emergency line just creating the primary flow with the full siphon will be enough to avoid serious gas off and as you said if the turbulence in the primary is minimal... Etc.

The secondary line should have such little flow that the amount of gas exchange is very minimal 

Sent from... The BEYOND via tapatalk


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The issue with the open channel drain is that it's effectively a 1.5" diameter chimney that'll let gas out. When the time comes I'll try it as is (with copious pH readings) and make any modifications if needed.

*Small update*:
Lighting has been changed to be 3x 4 bulb T5 and 3x 150w HQI pendants. The hardware isn't going to win any aesthetic design contests, but I'm pretty sure the inside of the tank is going to do nicely. Now I just need to be patient. *sigh*


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil Edwards said:


> The issue with the open channel drain is that it's effectively a 1.5" diameter chimney that'll let gas out. When the time comes I'll try it as is (with copious pH readings) and make any modifications if needed.
> 
> *Small update*:
> Lighting has been changed to be 3x 4 bulb T5 and 3x 150w HQI pendants. The hardware isn't going to win any aesthetic design contests, but I'm pretty sure the inside of the tank is going to do nicely. Now I just need to be patient. *sigh*


Choke it 3/4", easy.
I do not think you'll have much issues as long as turbulence and noise are minimized, if you that's done, then you are good all the way through the system.

I'd use a 6500K MH's with a ATI blue special and perhaps a Red wave URI, then maybe a mix of Aquawave's Red wave and then Sun wave.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I think I'm going to go with standard 6700K bulbs on everything since the MH are separate pendants from the T5 and will be hanging behind them. I loathe seeing different colored patches in tanks due to non-uniform lighting. I'm sure there'll be some difference between the MH and T5 as is and I'd like to minimize that if at all possible.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, you mention that wet-dry systems 'do filter well, you just want better'...are we talking 10% better...50% better? Do you want better simply due to the sheer volume of water you'll be dealing with? (i.e. for tanks less than 200G just go with wet-dry?)

Regarding the hardware not winning aesthetic design contests...isn't that what a covered stand and hood are for? 


Oh, by the way...make your sketchup life easier and utilize the 3D Warehouse. I didn't draw any of the PVC connectors, just downloaded them and resized. http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

crazymittens,

Normal, factory made, wet/dry filters work well, but they're not as good as they can be. Too much water goes through there too quickly and turbulently. I want more dwell time in the bio chamber and more media to water contact. Yes, that's mostly because of the volume of water I'll be dealing with. It's also a design preference. I want something that I can make a lot more versatile than the traditional bioballs into a sponge then out the filter type deal. Once the tank's mature that's probably all that will be in there, but I want the options for more just in case. Oh yeah, and drip trays are noisy too.  

After calculating the actual volume of media required at a 30" width I've decided to go with 24" instead. Damn, that would be a LOT of media.


It's not so much the extra items as it is making 24x18x? baffles with a 16"x2" cut in them that's driving me crazy. That and placing them. I'm a cad, but am not good at CAD. Not being able to make matching precise lines is driving me up a wall too. 59 15/16" and such...and none of the lines ever matches up to the same length as the parallel one. ARGH!


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Because I really want to see the sketchup drawings...you know you can type in values, right?

Skertchup basics

For example, start drawing a rectangle (press r), then type this in: 60,60 and press enter. You have just drawn a 60x60" rectangle.
Use the 'pull' function (press p), and pull that new rectangle up 1"...by first clicking the pull tool onto the rectangle (it will highlight), then moving in the direction you want, then typing that value
Double-click that rectangle, right click and 'create group'
You can also 'create component' if you want a bunch of these to be identical (i.e. edit one, edit all)
Rotate the baffle so it is vertical (press q). Click the tool along the red axis once, move down the red axis a bit, click it again - you are now rotating precisely on the red axis
Type in '90' to rotate 90 degrees
Press the spacebar to bring back your default arrow/select tool 
Select the baffle (it will highlight) and press 'm' to move it
Move along whatever axis (red) and type a value, say 2
Two options now...you can re-type to correct yourself, or use * or / and a value to make copies
For example, if you wanted to make evenly spaced baffles, use /5 to get 5 evenly spaced baffles along the width you moved
Use *5 to make five additional baffles the same distance you moved

Cheat sheet - basic keyboard shortcuts

Spacebar - the default arrow/select tool
R - rectangle
Q - rotate tool
L - line tool
M - move tool
P - pull tool
C - circle tool
Middle mouse button - 3D rotate the drawing (I find this super-handy)

One more brilliant/handy tool - the offset tool (just looked it up, keyboard shortcut F). Once you have your sump-shaped rectangle, pulled it into a 3D shape, and made it into a group (do this for ALL individual items, just do it, never leave orphaned lines) - double-click your sump so you're now editing it (everything else grayed out)...now, using the offset tool, move it over the top panel of the sump, and click once. Now enter an edge thickness...say 0.5" (or 1/2", both work), and press enter. Bam, you now have all you need to 'pull' that middle section down and give yourself an aquarium...

If you can get that...barring my awful explanations...you'll have all the basic tools for Sketchup and tank stuff.


----------



## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Oh...and for lining up a rectangle inside a rectangle...use the line tool to give you a starting point. For example, you already have your 24x18x0.5 baffle...so double-click it to enter the group (it is a group, right?), then using your Line tool, draw a line on the x-axis starting top left, enter the value 4 (24-16=8/2 ?). I don't know where you're putting the cut-outs, but just get yourself to the point of being able to draw the rectangle (now that you know the right way), and pull it all the way through the baffle...thus...cut out.

Umm....make sense?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Kinda sorta. I'll probably play around with it a little this weekend. We'll see. If I'm feeling cheeky I may do a little wood working as well. Again, we'll see. I'm getting a bit bummed out by having to wait on other people or logistics, but that's just my excitable nature. I also want to wait to get my next paycheck before spending money on this beast.

A small tank for my office might end up getting done first at this rate! :red_mouth


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Clearly I haven't been playing with Sketchup lately, but I do have an update of sorts. I HAVE SUBSTRATE!!! Well, it's still in the shipping boxes, but it's mine.  175 liters; 125 of Rio Cafe M and 50 of Rio Cafe F, enough for 4" across the whole bottom. It'll probably end up being something like 2" in front and 5-6" in the back. We'll see. I also may end up mixing them together, especially in the first few inches from the front to give the little fine-rooted guys a good place to stretch their legs. 

It's not going in the tank for a while, but I'll pics of the bags later nonetheless.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

An entire week and all I get is a snarky post in my build thread and promises of pics? Wats going on here...


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

To be honest, a whole lot of nothing is going on with the tank right now. I'm at the point of having to wait for the crew to come get the new stands in the house and move the tanks. Until that happens I'm stuck in dry dock.  I'll be happy to post pics of all the accumulated hardware if that'll make you feel better. roud:


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Yay, pics! Hardware!


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

hey i'm starting a big tank as well.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=397298&highlight=

what substrate did you pick out?
I'm going the beanimal route as well
Also, how are you plumbing new water into tank? I'm thinking of plumbing it into return line, but not sure if that return pump can handle it and it'll overfill the sump.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

andyl, see three posts up...



> I HAVE SUBSTRATE!!! Well, it's still in the shipping boxes, but it's mine. 175 liters; 125 of Rio Cafe M and 50 of Rio Cafe F, enough for 4" across the whole bottom. It'll probably end up being something like 2" in front and 5-6" in the back. We'll see. I also may end up mixing them together, especially in the first few inches from the front to give the little fine-rooted guys a good place to stretch their legs.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

crazymittens said:


> andyl, see three posts up...


how come he went with the rio instead of the amazon?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

andyl9063 said:


> how come he went with the rio instead of the amazon?


See answer below.



Phil Edwards said:


> *pandacory*,
> 
> Speaking of a budget; things will be different between the systems, for sure. Because I work in the industry I get deals on things and have access to a lot of hardware from previous product testing systems so any comparisons on cost will pretty much be invalidated.
> 
> ...


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

Jeff5614 said:


> See answer below.


gotcha, thanks


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy and Jeff*,

Took the words right out of my mouth. 

*Andy*,

I'm going to be going with the simple hose-from-the-sink method for while until I can figure out some sort of bulk storage container deal. As for layout and plumbing of the tank room (yeah, it's going to be more than two tanks) has to wait until I can get enough people to move things from the storage building into the basement/tank room.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

Phil Edwards said:


> Took the words right out of my mouth.


are you plumbing fresh water in tank? If so, how?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Water will be returned to the tank from the eventual sump via an external pump.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

Phil Edwards said:


> Water will be returned to the tank from the eventual sump via an external pump.


what kind of pump will you be using? I have the water line directly plumb straight to tank so I was thinking of run it into sump and let the return pipe handle it, but don't want the pump to fall behind and sump overflow...


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Andy, I didn't see any plumbing details in your build thread, maybe post it up there and we can comment.


Phil, is the external pump solely to keep heat out of the system? I know it's common, but just seems counter-intuitive to drill a hole in the very bottom of your water system...of all the places you do not want a leak, ya know?


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

crazymittens said:


> Andy, I didn't see any plumbing details in your build thread, maybe post it up there and we can comment.
> 
> 
> Phil, is the external pump solely to keep heat out of the system? I know it's common, but just seems counter-intuitive to drill a hole in the very bottom of your water system...of all the places you do not want a leak, ya know?


i just posted it.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

crazy,

I'm going with an external for a number of reasons.

1: They tend to be a lot quieter than submersible pumps.

2: Heat

3: Finding an internal pump that'll push enough water for my system (and is also quiet) is challenging. 

4: I prefer them.

5: Less likelihood of running dry and burning out.

6: They look a lot nicer than an submersible pump, IMO, and like my old advisor once told me "If it looks good it works better.". 


I've run external pumps on my sumps for almost as long as I've used sumps. The trick is silicone and teflon tape.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

I like the quiet and 'less likely to run dry' options...cool. Next time, if budget allows, I'll have to reconsider my choice...

Still waiting on equipment pictures, Phil.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Still waiting to get home to take them.


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## andyl9063 (Oct 22, 2010)

Phil Edwards said:


> Still waiting to get home to take them.


did you pick out pump already, which one?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Andy*,

No, I haven't bought a pump yet as I'm not 100% sure which model I want to use. 

*
crazymittens*,

Here's the hardware shot. 3x 150 HQI, 3x 4 bulb T5, Eheim beast, and substrate. That's 5 boxes of 5mm and 2 boxes of 3mm Rio Cafe. I'm only going to run the can until I can get the sump built and installed. Who knows how long that'll take though so I thought it best to use a big one.  In-tank filter plumbing will be PVC to tide me over until the overflow is the main drain.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Dats a lot of substrate...and if those are 24" T5 fixtures...that is one enormous canister filter. Nice!!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah, those are 24" fixtures. The boxes are approximately 68" across at the bottom.  Big tanks require big responsibility...I mean substrate. I'm not crazy about using multiple different, and different types of, fixtures but it'll do for now. I'm hoping I can cut some sort of deal to get enough of one kind of lighting with a manufacturer while at MACNA. Cross your fingers for Kessil Amazon Suns or Aquatic Life HQI pendants.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

How about a picture of the substrate itself.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Post #73 on this page http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=391801&page=5 has a pic of both the Rio Escuro (black) and Rio Cafe (brown) substrates.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Hurry up and put substrate in that beast!


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## mgdmirage (Mar 30, 2009)

Man I'm jealous, this sounds awesome!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*somewhatshocked*,

A couple things have to happen before I can put substrate in there, and I have no idea how long it's going to take. :icon_cry: We're slammed with orders at work and I can't get the guys to come over to move things until we've slowed down a bit; which doesn't seem likely. I may have to bribe them with beer and pizza. 

The current stands are getting up there in age and have sat in a moist basement with no maintenance for quite a while so it would be prudent to switch out the stands. On top of that they're on the tall side which doesn't afford me much room to maneuver. Even if I were going to use the current stands the tanks would have to be moved so I don't get a repeat of the head wound I got when cleaning. I've already got one scar on my forehead and I don't want any more.


*mgdmirage*,

Thank you, but it's going to be quite a while before they're going to be anything worth being jealous over. I hope they will be someday though.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Sounds like it's time to hire a bunch of college kids to move things! All so you can appease a forum. Ha.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Since all the hardware is in the company storage building I have to go with company people. It wouldn't do to have just anyone walking around in there, unfortunately. Otherwise, yeah, I'd call the local moving company and get a few strong guys for an hour or two.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

That is going to be the most epic basement I have ever seen. I am following along on this one for sure.

And I have tank envy already. Your tanks make my little 20 gallon tanks look like shot glasses now. :hihi:


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

Phil Edwards said:


> Post #73 on this page http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=391801&page=5 has a pic of both the Rio Escuro (black) and Rio Cafe (brown) substrates.


I don't know how I missed that because I've been following this thread since you started. Apparently not close enough though.

It looks nice and can't wait to see someone using this substrate. We need some more options for nice substrates. Are you going to mix the substrates or are you going to have them separated somehow?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

ua hua,

Right now the tentative plan is to use some of the 3mm in front and use the rest to cap the 5mm like Amano does. I know there'll be mixing in time and that's ok with me since it's all the same color. What I want to avoid is having larger grains visible on the surface in the foreground. That sort of thing bugs me unless I'm doing a sand/gravel substrate for a biotope. 

I'm really excited to use this stuff too. I agree, it'll be good to see results from someone using non-ADA substrates.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, busy at work is always a good thing!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

You betcha it is! Job security's a nice thing. :bounce:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I just got the word: the crew's coming over on Friday morning to get everything moved into place. This weekend's going to be FUN!!!!!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil Edwards said:


> crazy,
> 
> I'm going with an external for a number of reasons.
> 
> ...


Go with 1 decent Little giant 4 series(1" in/out) and then a Vortech MP40(1) and perhaps 3-4 for the reef. Good sized skimmer, large refuge and LED for the reef. Also, at least a 100 Gal mixing vat for the replacement water.

FW plants, the MP40 and the return will be good. 

Yes, replace the stand!!!!!

A metal frame would be best if possible with a good plywood treated base. Welders can custom make you something. Nothing over 24" high(you should be able to wiggle it through the 28" standard doors and down to the basement. You can also get 2 of them 1/2 as long as the tank and then use the plywood to connect.

You have a few options, but 24" is about the height max you have to work with without a ladder, but 30" is nice for viewing. So a stool might be worth it, maybe not. 

Good luck.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

The items I'm moving into the house-

3x 72"x36"x24" metal frame stands, a 72"x24"x30" 220 gal, and a 48"x24"x12" 60 gal rimless with stand. The pressing question is which tank to use as the reef? The 60 would make for a very nice lagoon style setup and would be more manageable, but it would also make a killer planted biotope tank. UGH, LIFE IS SOOOO HARD! WHY DO I HAVE TO MAKE DECISIONS LIKE THIS?! :biggrin: The 220 is going to be a grow out tank to keep a good stock of plants for trading between tanks and people. 

I've already moved 3x 150g and 2x 50g plastic mixing vats. This is going to be one hell of a room once it's all set up. The holding/mixing vats may seem like overkill, but since I'm on a well I can't be pulling out hundreds of gallons of water at one time. For one, it comes out nice and cold, which is great for drinking, but not so good for water changes. Secondly, I don't think the aquifer can recharge that much draw quickly. I'm going to have to use the vats as a refill buffer and temp adjustment system. On the upside, I can use one of the 150s as a quarantine tank for large groups of fish when it comes time to add them. 

There are a ton of pumps in storage for me to choose from. I need to sort through them and see if there's one that I want. I've also got a box full of Korallias and Vortechs that just need a little cleaning before being used. Depending on which tank becomes the reef I'll have some choices to make about which devices to use on which tank. 

That's today's update.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

The 60gal should probably be a fancy shrimp tank. I'm biased on that front.

Or even an awesome, fast-moving stream with a bunch of round stones of varying sizes for a bunch of Stiphodon atropurpureus.

But a reef could work. Easy to light being so shallow.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Somewhatshocked*,

If the 60 is used for freshwater I'll more than likely be doing a billabong biotope for Pseudomugils, a W. African biotope, or something with Crypts and Rasboras. After all this time I still have a tendency to slaughter shrimp by the masses. I don't want to invest a lot of money in a bunch of fancy shrimp only to see them all dead one morning. Maybe in time.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Captain's Log, 8.23.13: Tanks are in place and the room's taking shape.

Sooo, after 40 minutes of moving stuff around the crew and I got the stands and tanks moved into place this morning. That was the big bottleneck holding up further progress. The room is now home to four tanks; three to-be planted and one to-be reef. The room's still a mess as I need to do a lot of rearranging and tidying up, but the foundation's laid. 

Looking in from the utility room, from left to right-
60g to-be reef, 2x 300g to-be planted, a work table (old stand) with 50g for topping off the plant tanks. The metal stands are 30" high, approx. 8" of extra headroom compared to the previous stands. Both big tanks are 2" from the wall. I've decided to make my own overflows out of some smoked/tinted glass I found rather than the premade acrylic ones I had in the tanks previously.



Gratuitous photo of the tank in question in this thread-


Closeup of the workbench and top-off barrel. It's going to be moved right next to the 220, on the right side of the photo, to keep the water away from breaker panel. I plan on running PVC along the ceiling with drop down lines for each of the three tanks. The reef's going to get an RO/DI line run through the ceiling from the other room. 



220 grow out/storage tank. The poor baby needs some serious TLC and cleaning. This may actually be the first tank that gets up and running. I'll need it to hold and grow plants as they come in so I can put it all in the main tank in one big go. Substrate will be some sort of cheap inert material or pots full of MTS. I'm not sure yet. Lighting will be the three 4 bulb T5HO. 



Looking across the room from the 220 to the to-be reef. It looks so small compared to the other tanks, but is a 48x24x12, 60 gal. Lighting will be a 48" 8 bulb T5HO. The stand in the left side will eventually be moved against the wall to the left and will probably be a dedicated SW workstation with quarantine/hospital tanks and another 50g vat for mixing/aging new water. One of the 150 stock tanks will be functioning as a sump/refugium so I'll need a good 50 gal for each WC. 



The wall and stock tank in question. One wheelbarrow and the blue bucket in the other is full of old reef substrate. Remote DSB baby!



Thanks for watching.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

SWEET!!!!!!:drool:


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Great new photos!

You should consider Safe T Sorb for the holding tank. Cheap, high CEC, looks pretty good.

P.S. Any plans for critters in the holding tank?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*cableguy*,

Thank you. It's going to take a while to get everything up and going, but it'll get there eventually.


*somewhatshocked*,

I'm seriously considering using that or something similar.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Where's the la-z-boy going?


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

Phil Edwards said:


> *cableguy*,
> 
> Thank you. It's going to take a while to get everything up and going, but it'll get there eventually.
> 
> ...


I am betting there will be some posts concerning finishing the basement, electrical, and plumbing? Looks like a lot of work to go. However, you could throw some dirt and sand in a tank to get it all started. Ya know, to give us..... er..... you something to look at while you work.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*crazy*,

That's a very good question, and one I will ponder once I get everything set in place where I want it. I'll probably have to settle for comfy office chairs instead of recliners though. It all depends on local garage sales. 

Now that I think about it. I'll probably have to do the big boy nearest the reef setup as the Dutch setup as that'll be the first planted aquascape. Better to have one swivel chair to look at both the reef and planted without having to move a chair around. :thumbsup:


*Cableguy*,

Oh yes, I'll be starting a whole thread on doing up the whole room so we can talk about all that while keeping this thread focused on the tank.


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Man am i jealous! Cant wait to see how everything will turn out!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Iamiskool*,

Thank you. After sitting down there this morning having coffee and daydreaming/planning (they're the same thing, right?) I figured out a solution for the grow out tank that's got me excited. It's a quick fix that should get me up and running sooner than I had originally planned. On the order of days or weeks rather than months. :biggrin: Getting that bad boy up and running will also help me be patient with the dutch tank and do it right/consider the small details and include them right from the start.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

For those interested, I started a thread to track all the changes in the room. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4147218#post4147218


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Another "for those interested"- my reef build thread over at RC. Nothing new at the moment (except for hardware specs), but one never knows when I'll post a pic there that I don't post here. 

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?p=21868890#post21868890


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

I am envious of reef tanks... So gorgeous. For now I may live vicariously through you 

Cannot wait to see your plans come to fruition with both tanks!

Need to do a salty freshwater tank... Whatever those are called in between the two... A bridge to two worlds 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Brackish? 

I've been momentarily tempted to do a marine planted tank with one of the biggies, but I think I'll pass. Probably.


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

Phil Edwards said:


> Brackish?
> 
> I've been momentarily tempted to do a marine planted tank with one of the biggies, but I think I'll pass. Probably.


Brackish thank you!! Lol

Probably... Eh eh

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*9.19 Update-* Silicone City

This past weekend a friend and I spent a few hours adding more plastic sheets to the ceiling to cover spaces that had an opening directly into the structure for the floor above, running 2x4s to mount lights, and getting the 60g reef ready to play with. Over the past few days I've been playing with styro; getting it torched/shaped, painted, and glued into the tank. Now that I've got this done the next step is to get the overflow glass cut, put together, and get that into the tank. 

Testing the braces-


Torched panels; approx 24x12-


Silicone-


Left panel-


Right panel-


I think I can see a little black under all that stuff...


The Two Tanks-


I've got other photos on my comp back home that I forgot to upload. I'll get those up and on here so you can see how the rest of the stuff was done. It's nothing new, but I always like seeing detailed documentation of tank builds so there must be another nut like myself out there.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*9.20*-

The silicone worked!  I had to adjust the left panel a bit after the silicone had started to set. Here's to hoping it won't release when the tank's full of water. I'm taking the glass for the overflow in to get cut today. Cross your fingers that it's not tempered or insulated. 21x9x4; that's a bit overflow box! It too will be covered with styro to hide the intakes, give a unified look, and allow epiphyte planting.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Be sure to give the silicone a minimum of 24 hours, better to be like a week to cure. I cut into 24-hour silicone on the sump patches (to trim excess), and only the outer 1/8" had cured - interior still slightly goopy. 2-3 days later, still not perfect, but better. IIRC was 5 days to fully cure.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

It's going to be longer than 3 days to cure, no problem. I still have to get the overflow made and up. 

Oh, by the way...substrate's in the tank.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Okay, so two things. One, still no sump drawrings, and two, external overflows...I may be convinced to go this route.

Sump drawrings. Stat.

Also...the styrofoam/torch thing is pretty cool.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy*,

No sump drawrings available, sorry. I talked with a bunch of folks during MACNA and what I wanted to have done was prohibitively expensive. I'm back to the drawring board on that. I've got an idea of a solution that'll do the same thing but hopefully won't cost as much. We'll see. The overflow box is going IN the tank, not outside. I still don't feel confident enough in my skills to make something that won't break and cause major problems.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

9.23 update- Substrate!

I finally got the tank in a place where I could feel ok putting substrate and a little water in there. Plans are to keep it just barely covered with water until the overflow is installed, covered with styro, and all the silicone is cured. 

7 boxes; 5 of 5mm and 2 of 3mm totaling 14 12.5 liter bags of Rio Cafe substrate. Oh yeah! I'd originally estimated 3" total depth volumetrically, but it turns out this stuff takes up more space than I thought, even estimating for space between grains. It turned out to be 3" in the front and about 5" in the back. The front 3-4" is 100% 3mm and the rear 3-5" is 100% 5mm. Smoothing things out created more of a gradient than I'd wanted, but it'll all work out. I may end up taking some out and using it in a different tank, but all in all, I'm happy with how it turned out. 

Bags. The color difference in the pic is due to lighting, not variability in the grains.



3 bags of 5mm in the back-




3 bags of 3mm in the front-




5 bags of 5mm in the back-


7 bags of 5mm in the back and 4 of 3mm in the front-
http://s78.photobucket.com/user/SwimsWithFishes/media/037.jpg.html?sort=3&o=6

All smoothed out-


Front blend-


Rear-


Filling up!


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## Whiskey (Feb 15, 2005)

Sweet!!! It's always exciting to see water hitting a tank! 

Whiskey


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

When will plants get into this monster?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Keats*,

No later than a month from now. Hopefully a bit earlier, we'll see. You should take a drive up here and see it once it's going strong. I'm only 1.5hrs from Hburg. Actually, from the airport. That may be closer to or farther from you.


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## cableguy69846 (Dec 13, 2010)

YAY! WATER! 

Sent from the Great Beyond.....


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## keats (Apr 26, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> *Keats*,
> 
> No later than a month from now. Hopefully a bit earlier, we'll see. You should take a drive up here and see it once it's going strong. I'm only 1.5hrs from Hburg. Actually, from the airport. That may be closer to or farther from you.


Sounds good. I'm excited to see this. I'm about 5 minutes from the airport and 15 from the burg. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

No-pic update 10.7-

All the lighting and CO2 stuff is here, wooo! Now I "just" need to hang the lights, figure out which combination of bulbs looks best, make a glass overflow, silicone a lot of styro to the sides and back of the tank, make the filter, and it's ready to go. I should be caught up with crazymittens in no time! LOL

After a lot of consideration and looking at past NBAT planted tank champions' systems I've decided to put styro panels on the sides of the tank too. I'd considered leaving them empty to give myself some flexibility is placing outlets and circulators, but I really love the enclosed look of the traditional NBAT Dutch aquascapes. Walls covered in moss, Anubias, or Java Fern look too good for me to pass up. 

Pics will be forthcoming, as soon as I get things done.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

That sounds really interesting...totally the opposite goal of my build! Don't forget to take some pictures around the development/build of the styro stuff...most people don't get to see/do that.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I've got some pics on the comp at home that I keep forgetting to upload. I'll try to remember to upload them tonight.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Interesting way to go. I will look forward to seeing how you work this out. Ive just been realizing how important having the tank at eye level becomes in an enclosed tank.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah, eye level's a big deal. It makes it much easier to see the full scape. A little bit of a downward angle's not bad either.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log, 10.16- PROGRESS!*

Sooo, I've been a lazy bum and neglected to upload progress pics for updates. Well, here we go! It's not much, but it's something, and I'm getting close to being ready for water. WOOO!!!! 


*Cutting and shaping/torching the styro panels. I used a BenzOMatic brand propane blowtorch to melt the surface of the 1" styro. I did this for two reasons; cool texture and to seal the outer face of the panel. Since it's the stuff made out of compressed balls I wanted to minimize the chances of pulling out big chunks of the stuff if/when I have to thin out epiphytes. 

Shaped and (almost) painted panels. I used RustOLeum Flat Black from the can for the majority of this. The other night I got a couple cans of spray to do touch-ups and hit the sides. BIG MISTAKE! Spray melts styro. I'm going to have to go back, trim the edges, and repaint it with canned stuff. 










Hanging lights. 

Brackets-


Test run. You can see a black cover that fits over the brackets and neatly contains the excess wire. No need to snip so it can be used over and over again. I'm using AquaticLife fixtures and hanging kits for this build. So far I'm EXTREMELY impressed with the quality of the materials and attention to detail/design. They've made it so adjusting height is a simple matter and once it's done, the whole thing looks clean and tidy. 







The blue patch on the light is a timer and controller. They've made it so you can control on/off on two sets of two bulbs each. It's currently set for the white (10000K) and blue (actinic) that comes standard with the fixture. I'll be using it to have overlapping photoperiods on the plant bulbs I've got. 10hr total photoperiod with 4 hrs 2x bulbs, 2 hrs 4x bulbs, 4 hrs 2x bulbs. 

Will be cutting the glass for the overflow and siliconing the remaining styro panels up tonight. 

Thanks for watching.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Wowwwww lights! Will there be a canopy of sorts for these tanks? Antsy to see overflow, I am.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Master Yoda*,

This guy's going to be open top. There's just not enough clearance on top to make a canopy viable. I wouldn't be able to get in the tank to do anything. Plus, on a tank this size a canopy would be really expensive, and that's not a cost I can even remotely justify. Besides, with such good looking fixtures and kits, why would I want to hide them? I'm really breaking with Dutch tradition in this respect. The best Dutch setups always have very nice enclosures for the aquarium, making them a piece of furniture to go with the room rather than a pretty aquarium surrounded by visible hardware. Maybe someday I'll get around to doing something like that. Probably once I buy a house.

The overflow's just going to be a simple 4-pane, 3-sided affair. Nothing at all fancy like yours.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

You could probably do something simple - I'm just thinking of glare when trying to look at the tank. Just a fascia panel or something so frontal viewing isn't impacted. I agree about the lights though...when we get the BML units, kinda sad that it'll eventually be canopied.

Is there some sort of written template on Dutch setups? All I know of 'Dutch' is plantbrain's tank journal. Red and green.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Nice Lights! I like aquaticlife junk.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy*,

There's not a whole lot of English language info on the Dutch style. A couple people in the US have tried to get it translated or talk about what they've figured out from their own inquiries. A guy named Marco has posted what is probably the best translation of the official NBAT guidelines/rules over on a UK site. I can't remember if it's the Practical Fishkeeping or UKAPS site though.  

Most of what I've learned comes from Marco's efforts, Christel Kasselmann's book "Planted Aquariums: Design and Maintenance", talking with English speaking Dutch hobbyists, and my own digging around on Dutch forums. A surprising amount can be gleaned just by going through the pictures of build threads/journals of district and national level competition winners. Willem Van Wezel and RolandD are both National Champions who have posted quite a bit about their setups online.

As for the lighting; if I need to I'll drop the fixtures down closer to the water. Right now the one is suspended 3.75" from the surface so I don't anticipate too much glare. I won't know for sure until they're all up and running though.


*BruceF*,

Junk? These are some of the nicest manufactured fixtures I've ever used.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Yes they are very nice fixtures!

Marco
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/crash-course-dutch-style-aquascaping.8713/


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

I had an aquatic life fixture. Loved it. I did replace the fans with ultra-quiet PC fans. Was an easy change. The backup battery on the timer couldn't be changed and eventually wouldn't power the timer for more than a few minutes. Replaced the timer unit and it only lasted a few months before doing same. 

Other than that it was a great fixture. Eventually decided I just didn't need 4x4 T5, but lived the single plug and built-in timer.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 10.21-*

Having a hard deadline to make me get the tank ready for plants was nice for this lazy bum.  Friday morning I got the rest of the styro siliconed to the sides of the tank. I will NEVER use this type of styro again. It doesn't hold paint worth a damn and compacts far too easily. Unfortunately, it was all I had available and will suffice for now. FAN donated a bunch of plants to AquaFest this weekend and has started growing Java Fern and foreground carpeting species on an organic fiber matting that looks very promising as a material to make in-tank walls for epiphytes out of. I'm very seriously considering finding a source for that and replacing the styro at some point in the future. 

Kris Weinhold, Cavan Allan, and NJAquaBarren gave me me some very nice sets of plants last week and this weekend; THANK YOU!!! When I got home on Sunday I finished hanging the lights, put a little water in the substrate, planted everything, and covered it with Saran Wrap. Due to logistical issues with getting glass for the overflow I've had to go with an emersed grow set up until I can get the overflow made. It'll be interesting to see how everything grows and how long it takes to fill 2500 square inches. 

I can't remember 90% of the species in there as most of them are new to me. I'm very excited to give these a try and start sharing them with other folks when the time comes. 

Pics, woo! 

The lighting was hung by the aquarium with care in hopes that St. Greenthumb soon would be there.


Plants and styro. The bright section on the upper left is a cut out area for the filter outlet and VorTech to go. The back and sides are going to get painted to obscure the bare patches created by the uneven edges of the styro and the cut out area. 





Lots of plants, but still a ton of room to put other species. 



Thanks for watching.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 10.24*-

I got another care package from a hobby friend (THANKS denske) last night and am still trying to wrap my head around the number of species/cultivars in the tank now; 90% of which I've never kept before. Here's to hoping they all adjust to emergent conditions and get growing soon. Lighting is currently 6x 10000K 24w T5 on 15-16 hrs/day. I turn them on when I get home from work and off when I wake up. All the windows in the room now have styro sheets over them for insulation so the room gets no ambient light. 

Right side:



Middle:



Left:




Whole shebang:


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Wow, Phil, that's amazing...do you have a chart to indicate what's planted where?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy*,

No, I don't. Since I've been getting boxes at intervals and there are so many species/cultivars I haven't kept track of what I've put where. I pretty much just put them wherever there was space according to perceived needs. If some stems came in with a lot of roots they got laid down flat to encourage the roots to grow. If something was already growing emersed I tended to plant it vertically on one of the little humps so it wasn't under water. The submersed grown stuff tended to get planted/placed in the little puddles so it would stay moist while adjusting to emersed conditions. 

The plan is to grow everything out and consult the folks who sent me the stuff to determine what's what eventually.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 11.1.13*-

Let there be mold!!! Most of the plants that started out as submersed are getting moldy leaves as the leaves die off and the plant adjusts to emersed growth. Here's to hoping that goes away fairly quickly. Almost every plant in there is starting to put off new buds/stems and the ones that were already growing emersed are going gangbusters!

I've taken a piece of tape off one of the holes in the back to (hopefully) create a little better gas exchange. I'm also considering doing a little fertigation of Ca, Mg, K, and traces, and snaking a CO2 line in there to give things a little boost. That might require getting some glass or plastic sheets to cover the tank instead of the current seran wrap though. Hmmm, maybe root tabs or some sort of DIY substrate supplementation would be in order. If I do this it'll probably be a DIY. Don't want to go using the competition's products and showing that their stuff works too now, do we?  Hmmm, maybe it's time I come up with a root tab for our product line. Necessity is the mother of invention, no?

Some folks on other forums have been asking me what the game plan is so I figured I'd talk about that here too.

The plan (as always, subject to change) is to let things grow emersed while I accumulate the species I want to do the final scape with. Once I've got all those in sufficient quantity, I'll take everything out, do the 'scape, send out care packages to folks who gave me plants, and toss a few stems of each into a different tank to grow out, then put the rest up for sale. One of the clubs I used to belong to has a Horticulturist Award Program and I may see if they'll let me participate remotely. If so, watch out, I'm not sure I'll be able to keep myself from setting up all the tanks in the basement as grow out/collection systems. 

As far as the main display's concerned, I've been wanting to do a massive emersed start system for a long time, but haven't really had the chance. Now that I do, I'm going to do it. Once all the plants are arranged how I want them I'm going to let everything grow emersed for a while to establish a strong root system then do a severe hack and fill the tank. Like just about everyone here I've typically started tanks with plants that have very little, if any root mass. Those plants tend to need a couple weeks to set roots before starting to grow well and (in my experience) the systems are fairly unstable during that period. I want to know how the plants and system respond to the opposite; lots of roots but little plant mass. My expectation is that it will be a lot more stable from the start than the usual plant-and-fill method. 

On the plus side it'll give me time to get the filtration figured out, save $$ to buy all the epiphytes I'll need for the walls, and flower a bunch of new species. 

Pics will come shortly. I need to give the glass a good cleaning/squeegie-ing (that's a word, right?) to be able to actually see everything.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

I wonder if you have considered using more water? I keep a few tanks with only an inch or so of water and never seem to have fungus problems. Maybe I am just lucky.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Bruce*,

I think the issue is too much water, very high humidity, and poor ventilation/gas exchange. Because 70-80% of what I put in there was grown submersed I wanted to ensure things wouldn't dry out while converting. Now that they are I can start slowly removing strips of tape from the back to reduce humidity and allow fresh air to get in. A little water stress wouldn't hurt at all either. If it evaporates fast enough I may just let the water level drop to 3/4-1" below the substrate surface over time to encourage more root growth. That's the primary goal; to get a lot of "nubs" with robust root systems rather than a bunch of long stems with poor roots.


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## DooSPX (Aug 10, 2013)

Love the tank! Cannot wait to see it when it fills in and your add fish!


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, this is awesome...will be so cool to see emersed/flowering growth!


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Vent the tank some, at least an inch or two. Remove any of the wrap etc, you do not need it, moist soil terrarium set up basically.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*DooSPX*,

Thanks! I'm looking forward to seeing how your tank progresses too. Natives are a lot of fun to play with. It's going to be a while before I fill and add fish. In the past I've been in a rush to get the tank filled and going so I can have more time to focus on getting it ready for photo competitions. This time I'm going to be patient (read: lazy) and go down the emersed road for a while. I really hope that pays dividends in the long run. I'm also trying hard not to use my credit card for this one. I've had to buy a few things with it, but I had the cash in hand. Sticking to a "when money allows" plan enforces a slower pace at this scale. The next big purchase is either going to be a sump or a few hundred dollars worth of Anubias, Java Fern, Crypts, and assorted stems that are hard to get in bulk through hobbyists, like L. cardinalis. 

*Crazy*,

If all goes well this should turn out to be a veritable meadow of flowers. If not, I hope it doesn't mean the plants dying. 

*Tom*,

I've considered that, but I need to be careful of not drying them out too quickly. The air's getting pretty dry already and will be much drier before long. Right now the wrap's the only thing keeping it humid while the plants adjust. Venting's certainly in the cards though. We'll see how rolling the seran wrap back an inch on one side helps.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Looks awesome. Can't wait to see how it turns out. When I did my DSM I didn't leave any holes. I just aired it out once or twice a day.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Jalopy*,

I've had to use 4 separate sheets of wrap to cover the tank. Getting them to stick together was a trick so I try not to disturb it as much as possible. Venting is probably my best option.


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## CaptainSlow (Apr 15, 2013)

Phil Edwards
I wait for your updates every day, please upload more photos!
I run dsm on my 135g for the 3rd week now, most hc was emersed from the shop and it is perfectly fine, but some submersed from old tank is molding too. I hope it will go away soon. Do u have any treatment for this mold or you just wait?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*CaptainSlow*,

Thank you for the kind words. I've been pretty unmotivated lately and the encouragement helps. 

I've heard of people using dilute hydrogen peroxide spray to kill mold. I'm going to give that a try as well as start venting the tank a bit. The emersed leaves are looking healthy so I'm pretty sure once the submersed leaves are gone the mold will go away.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Phil, do you know of any emersed 'how-to' guide? I'm thinking of using the spare 30G as an emersed grow tank - once things are grown, they can be moved into the 125. Thoughts?

Maybe you should write one based on your experience here...


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Phil: Please post 10,000 more photos ASAP. 

I am living vicariously through you until I can get my own large tanks positioned properly in the basement.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Seems like you're starting off with plenty of plants, wondering why you chose to dsm this tank?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log, 11.4.13*-

After two weeks of nearly 100% enclosure with tape and plastic wrap the stems are all sending off emersed growth so I thought it was time to start venting a bit. I pulled the wrap back an inch or so along the front and watched it carefully over the weekend. Everything looks to be doing well but I'm seeing definite signs of nutrient deficiency so I'll be starting a daily spray using a mix of BA's FlorinMulti and Florin Delta GH+. Some of the symptoms could be N deficiency, but I want to rule out minor and trace elements first. We'll see how things respond over the week and if they don't get better I'll add N to the mix.

There's still some mold growing but the venting has reduced that a bit. If it persists or starts affecting new stems and/or leaves I'll give everything a dilute H2O2 spray.

Right side-



Center-



Right-



Full Tank-


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Looking awesome, Phil. Do you think any of this will flower? Or does that take a long time...



Um...also...is that a worm? (bottom right)


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy*,

I'm not familiar with what's available here at TPT for emersed setup guides, but APC's got a good one. I'll certainly be using my experiences with this tank to eventually write a how-to guide for starting a tank this way. Until then, I'll be happy to answer any questions you've got.

*xmas-one*,

I'm starting the tank this way for a couple reasons:
1. I don't have the $$ available yet to get the filter system set how I want it.
2. I'm still accumulating the species I want for the final design. Since the tank is so large I'll be needing many individuals of a few species and I need to save serious $$ for that. I don't want to flood the tank until I've got everything settled the way I want it.
3. A lot of these species are new to me and I want to see how they grow emersed and try to flower them.
4. Growing dry is a great way to both quickly increase numbers of shoots as well as establish strong root systems prior to flooding.
5. Because I want to.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Crazy*,

Thanks! Yeah, I think a lot of these will flower at some point. My lighting supplier shipped me the wrong size bulbs for the fixtures I've got so I'm waiting for the "real" lighting to come in. Right now I'm only running 6x 10000K bulbs. I don't expect much in the way of flowers under that light and no nutrient supplementation. Once I get the lights set up and the nutrients dialed in there'll be quite a few flowers growing...eventually. I really have no idea how long that will take. I could probably manipulate nutrients to stimulate blooming, but to be honest, I would prefer to stick with minors and traces. Dumping a lot of PO4 in there without any filtration or water movement may cause issues I don't want to deal with. 

I'd originally thought that was a worm so I left it in there to decompose. I'm pretty sure it's a rotten rubber gasket from one of the hoses now and I haven't been bothered to remove it.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Any updates? How the dry start going? This has to be one of the biggest dsm ever! Did you get any algae growth near the water line?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Flying*,

I'll get some pics tonight for the weekly update. Everything's growing, but most are starting to show signs of nutrient deficiency. I poured a whole 500mL bottle of FlorinMulti, our multi-nutrient trace supplement, in there the other day. If I don't see signs of improvement I'm going to start spraying with K, Fe, and GH booster (Florin-K, Florin-Fe, and Florin Delta GH+ solution, respectively). If that doesn't do the trick after a week I'll start spraying N and P too. Even though it's a personal setup, it's still also a work test system and I need to be methodical rather than just start dumping nutrients in there willy-nilly.

So far I haven't seen any algae growth, but there is a surface scum in some areas. Mold is greatly reduced now that it's vented and is only present on some leaves that are in contact with water.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 11.12.13*-

I apparently made a rookie mistake last night and made my Fe + K solution too strong. Woke up to fried/melted plants. It doesn't look like I outright killed all of anything, but much of the new growth is toast. The lower portions of most stems, especially those in direct contact with water, are still healthy looking and I still see a bunch of tiny leaves still hanging on on most species. Even so, It's a pretty significant setback. The plan moving forward is to wait a few days for the mush to disintegrate so I can get a better idea of what hung on and what didn't. After that I'll be making up a VERY DILUTE total nutrient solution, NPK and everything, to help the survivors recover. I'd considered flooding it partway and draining to clear out remaining nutrients and dead tissue, but I don't have a heater available to warm the water yet.

On the bright side (no pun intended) I got the rest of the bulbs in the fixtures. Hooray for 3x the light and full coverage!


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## carpalstunna (Mar 22, 2012)

bummer


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah, it is. Things like this happen sometimes and I've promised myself to make sure to update with both the good and the bad. Even experienced people can make rookie mistakes sometimes and if my experiences keep someone else from doing the same thing then it's all worth it. Thankfully nothing looks to be completely wiped out and everything will grow back. It's just a matter of time and careful tending now.


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## carpalstunna (Mar 22, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> Yeah, it is. Things like this happen sometimes and I've promised myself to make sure to update with both the good and the bad. Even experienced people can make rookie mistakes sometimes and if my experiences keep someone else from doing the same thing then it's all worth it. Thankfully nothing looks to be completely wiped out and everything will grow back. It's just a matter of time and careful tending now.


Ya most aquatic plants seem to be more like weeds than flowers. They are generally quite hardy and can survive alot of abuse. They will come back.


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## manzpants92 (Dec 6, 2012)

Amazing set up! Cant wait to see it come to life


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Phil Edwards said:


> *Captain's Log 11.12.13*-
> 
> On the bright side (no pun intended)


Hahah I spill some of my Monster drink when I read that! 

Hey Phil, what made you spray the plants with nutrients again? I remember you said they were showing some deficiency? 

Is the substrate inert? Surely the substrate can't be depleted that fast, can it?

Anyways, I like your honestly in this thread, keep us updated and more pics!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Manzpants*,

Thank you very much. Even with this setback I'm very excited about this system and am looking forward to seeing how it turns out too. 

*Flying*,

I'm glad I could give you a laugh. Hope you didn't ruin your keyboard. 

The substrate's not inert, but it doesn't appear to be as nutrient rich as Rio Escuro; which, in my opinion is a good thing. It'll be a lot more sustainable over time. Because I'm not doing any water changes there's no replenishment of Ca, Mg, K, or Fe with the water so I need to supplement those. I figured I'd add traces along with the mix to cover my bases. Since a lot of the older tissues were damaged I'm not sure how much N and P the plants will be able to recover so I've added a little bit of that to the mix too. Basically, I want to make sure everybody's getting everything they need to recover and get growing again. If I were growing submerged from the start I'd be doing things a bit differently. 

While hiding all the bad things and only showing the good things may make me look good, showing the downs and talking about them helps people learn. I'd rather have a reputation for honesty and helping than being a (falsely) infallible hobbyist.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 11.14.13*-

Before and after the nutrient burn and addition of new lights. 

Before; 6x 10000K T5HO and after; 18x 24w 6000K and 6x 680nm T5HO

All is not lost and I think this will be a good way to record new growth from a baseline. I've started spraying with a dilute full nutrient (minus P) mix as of last night and pulled part of the plastic wrap back over the front to up humidity again. It's taped in the center with open corners to vent. As long as I don't make any drastic changes I think this will work well and everything will recover. Time will tell and I'll make sure to document everything.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

Looks like things are doing fine Phil. I use a very dilute spray of Age Old Grow fertilizer on my emersed tanks. I don't know of a complete fertilizer made by any of the aquatic suppliers. Is there one?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Bruce*,

I don't think any aquatics supplier makes an all-in-one liquid supplement. Adding N and P together to a mineral nutrient mix in solution is asking for problems with bacteria and/or fungi. That's why I didn't put any P into mine. If I were to make up just enough nutrient mix to spray 100% of it at a time adding N and P together wouldn't be an issue. Letting something sit at room temperature is a whole other issue.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Diluted Miracle Grow ferts works fine. 

Maybe 1 tsp per gallon.

While I am the one that suggested the DSM, and used it.........I do not use it myself much if at all these days.

I did not want to buy a lot of the HC and fine rooted plants often pull up.

But I'm just better at consistency and replanting things better, so this is not an issue and I go ahead and buy a lot of plants to cover the area and use fillers till they do grow in.

Sometimes the fish you plan on having will pick at the new plants, so that and a few other reasons justify DSM. A non CO2 tank plan certainly benefits greatly from this method more than the CO2 enriched tanks.

I say flood the sucker now.


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## carpalstunna (Mar 22, 2012)

plantbrain said:


> I say flood the sucker now.


I second that motion


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Tom and Carpalstunna*,

While I'm looking forward to flooding this eventually I want to hold off for a couple reasons.

1. $$$- I'm forcing myself to stick to a pretty strict budget on this project and am avoiding upping my credit card debt if at all possible. That means I don't currently have a filter, CO2 reactor, or heaters for the tank yet. It's also keeping me waiting until I have the money to buy all the epiphytes and other certain species I want to put in here. Even getting everything from wholesalers will cost a couple hundred dollars for that many plants. With Christmas coming soon I should get enough gift money to buy what I need for filtration and CO2 hardware. 

2. Curiousity- I want to see how a tank does when it's started with plants that are mostly root mass without much stem/leaves vs the typical stem/rosette but little root mass.

3. Lack of motivation- Starting out emersed like this is a good way to have plants but not really have to do a lot for them. If I flood it I'll have to set up the other big tank to store and heat water for water changes, set up the other (other) big tank to keep the plants I don't want to use in the final aquascape (more $$), and other logistical things that I don't feel like doing or paying for right now. 

4. Flowers- It'd be nice to flower some of these before flooding it. 

It'll get flooded eventually, I promise.


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## Jadelin (Sep 30, 2009)

Oh, your poor little plants look so sad after the fertilizer mishap! I hope they pull through.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Jadelin*,

Thanks for the well-wishes. I may have to figure out a way to replace the water, but I saw a bunch of little tiny leaves in there this morning. One of the Sygonanthus is even flowering. I'd feel better knowing for sure that it wasn't stress flowering aka, "I'm going to die, better make babies pronto!". Of all the affected plants in there they Sygo's look to have handled it the best so it may be a happy plant wanting to make babies instead. If everyone in there looks stable over the next few days then I'll leave the water as is. If not, I'll replace it. Aside from that it's hands-off time.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Whoa, plants do that!? Plants are pretty amazing little things.

Pics of flowers required.


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## BruceF (Aug 5, 2011)

About changing water fwiw. I find the easiest way to maintain aquariums with little water and no filters is to add water and then remove it. By which I mean in an aquarium with one inch of water I raise the water to say three inches and then remove the extra two inches.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Bruce, that's what I've done in the past with this tank too and it works great. My concern is having enough warm water to fill, drain, and refill without shocking the already delicate plants. I'm on a well and if I run out of warm water it gets really cold really quickly.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Updates?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Hmmm, let's see. I gave everything a good hit with a kelp extract solution for a dose of hormones, light macros, and all the extra goodies botanical extracts can give a couple weeks ago. Just about everything is budding and growing; it's just hard to get pics of the tiny things right now. I started dousing the tank with 1 gallon of water with 1mL each of all the Florin line. With most of our liquids 1mL/gallon hits the sweet spot in concentrations for just about every major nutrient; 17.5mg/L NO3, 1.23mg/L PO4, etc.. That's been a noticeable help too. I'll try to get some pics in a couple weeks once things have gotten a bit bigger.


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## DizzyD (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm so jealous of the workspace you have. I share a room with my cousin and have 3 tanks in it. I don't know if I could even coupe with that much space...


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## AussieDIYFK (Aug 13, 2012)

any updates? im very intrigued on how this brightwell tank has evolved


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Aussie*,

There's not much to see that's different from the past set of pics. Things are recovering slowly and sometimes growing then dying back again and growing again. I have a hard time not letting my curiosity get the better of me and trying things I've never done before. Sometimes that results in something cool or a deeper understanding of process, but other times it results in widespread death and mayhem. This was one of the latter cases, unfortunately.

I've got some cool things in the pipe here at work that may have application to planted tanks. I may be giving those a try to see how they work under these conditions. This *is* a test tank (too) after all. 

With Christmas just around the corner I'll be getting $$ to finalize the filtration and buy the vast quantity of certain plants that I've wanted for the setup. Look for major changes around the start of the year. Until then I'm going to let things sit and try to be happy again.


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## AquaAurora (Jul 10, 2013)

Phil Edwards said:


> *Aussie*,
> 
> I've got some cool things in the pipe here at work that may have application to planted tanks. I may be giving those a try to see how they work under these conditions. This *is* a test tank (too) after all.


Do you get to write off some/all tank expenses (electricity/water, $ spent on equipment/flora/etc) for work since you guinea-pig some of their stuff?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

AquaAurora,

Yes and no. I have free access to any hardware we have in storage and get anything we make for free. If there's something I want outside of that then I pay for it myself, but I can get it at our cost through businesses we have relationships with. I'm on a well so water's free. Electricity on the other hand…that's all me.


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

Picture of the process~ !


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Ok, I'll get some pics when I have the chance. Not much has changed over the past couple weeks. When something big happens I'll make sure to document it.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log, 12.26.13*- 

I figured it was time to post some sort of update on the tank as it's been a while. I filled it halfway and let a VorTech MP40 go hog wild circulating the water for half a day this past weekend. I did this for a couple reasons: 1) loosen up any dead stems and get them out of the tank, and 2) try to get any excess fertilizers out of the substrate and into the water where I could drain them. After cleaning things up I drained as much water as possible, pulled up some plants and replanted others. Even though the stems and leaves look terrible or are full out dead, the roots I saw looked great! 

After all that I put filled the tank up to 1/2" from the substrate's surface (roughly) with fresh, lightly fertilized, water and re-covered the tank. I pulled out the downdraft elbows to allow better air flow from the heater and pulled a piece of tape off one of the bulkeads to let some air circulate.

Half a week later things are starting to look better and some of the plants I didn't mess with, particularly the H. pinnatifida, seem to be a lot happier. I'm seeing a lot of new growth and less burning of leaves/leaf tips than I did before. 

I've been talking with friends on another forum about possible reasons the plants haven't done so well even this long after the Fe and K overdose. We've narrowed our guesses down to low humidity and low temperatures. I've got a box of new plants coming in soon that will be going in here. We'll see if the changes I made keep these new plants alive and happy. 

Cross your fingers!!!

Right side-



Left Side-



FTS- 


Roots-


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log, 1.4.14*-

Things are improving quite a bit since starting the weekly drain/refill and keeping the water 1/2-3/4 inch below the substrate surface. I've also started adding twice the fertilizer as before. It's still difficult to get pictures of the new little growth, it's definitely there and I'm seeing an improvement in health as well.

Once the roads clear up a little more I'll be heading to the store to get a humidifier to toss in here. The plants are still having issues with cooler temps and lower humidity. Hopefully adding a warm mist humidifier will help alleviate those problems and encourage faster growth.











I've also recently set up a 60 gallon full of water to help tide me over until I can get the filter set up for this guy. Having the other tank to play with means I'll be able to let this one grow out more than I'd thought. This guy may go back to the original concept of fully planting and scaping then letting everything grow emergent for a while before flooding. I think it would be cool to see how things respond to that treatment vs. the traditional planting of cutting without roots and flooding right away. 

Thanks for watching!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 1.28.14*- 

I added a warm mist humidifier to the system a few weeks ago and have seen noticeable improvement in the health and growth of everything in there. Some patches which were previously bare have new stems coming up from roots and nodes previously buried, and everything that had a bit of stem or leaves on the surface is putting out new growth. I also put some moss and ferns in cracks or directly on the walls and it seems everything is happy. I'll be getting an order with a bunch of emergent grown stems, some submersed grown stems that I think will transition ok, and some A. nana and Windelov Java Fern. Once I get all that planted I'll take some update photos.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Photo teaser-

I just got the box of plants today. About half of the 18x12x6 box is going into the 60 gallon flooded with the rest being destined for this big guy. That's 15 A. barteri v. nana and 15 bunches of M. pteropus 'Windelov'.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 2.1.14*-

Things are looking up in the Big Tank O' Learning. Finally got the epiphytes stapled to the walls using trim/finishing brads bent into a U. 

Note: Pics were taken right before the semi-weekly drain so there's more water in there than normal. 

Species added
M. pteropus 'Windelov'
A. barteri v. nana
A. senegalensis
P. erectus
C. wendtii 'Tropica/Bronze'
L. inclinata v. verticillata 'Cuba'
P. stellata 'Broad Leaf'
B. caroliniana
H. difformis
H. corymbosa 'Kompact'
C. pontederifolia (more)
G. spilanthoides





































Thanks for watching.


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## pianofish (Jan 31, 2010)

It's amazing how massive tht tank is. I know from experience that there is a ton of plants in there and even completely filled, they'll need to grow in for it to look full. Tank is looking awesome by the way. You are gonna have quite te setup my friend.


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## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

Awesome! Good to see this monster back on track! Thanks Phil for posting the good, the bad and the ugly, helps us all learn a thing or two.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Phil, we used the Anubias petite mostly on the side walls in the past, the larger plants blocked light and a lot of the front view making the tank window look smaller.

So smaller epiphytes were used. Java fern Windelov will be okay I think. 
You can move those around pretty well on the wall though and see for yourself.

You can also think about Anubias roots coming down, as in 1-2 ft's worth.

It can look pretty good.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Thanks for the kind words folks. It's much appreciated. roud:roud: We're all here to learn and well, if nobody ever posts the bad and how it got fixed, we wouldn't learn as much, no? 



Tom,
I've used A. nana 'Petite' in smaller tanks (225 and 75 gallons) in the past with great success and will be using it in the 60 gallon when the time comes. Given the size of this tank and the area of the wall to cover, I don't think regular A. nana will cause optical issues. 36" front-to-back depth will go a long way toward achieving a sense of large scale and depth. Plus, I'm going for a more old school feel and well, it's cheaper to cover 6 square feet with regular A. nana than with A. nana 'Petite'.


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Hi Phil,

Thank you so much for sharing your journey. I'm so inspired! Your tank is going to be amazing and I look forward to watching your tank grow.

I needed some advice about the foam walls. If you could do it over again, what would you do differently? I want to try that in my dutch style aquarium but didn't know where to start. Is it too late to make a foam wall now that my tank has water in it? Are there alternatives to the foam walls? How did you attach the plants?

Here's my dutch 75 gallon I just started. I'd appreciate any advice and guidance. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?p=5250489#post5250489


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*MamaJu,*

Thank you for the kind words, they're always appreciated. 

If I had to do the walls over again I would do what I've done in the past and either use the pink solid-core insulation foam or make one out of spray foam and egg crate. The walls are holding up fairly well as-is, but I'm a little skeptical about their long term endurance. We'll just have to wait and see how they do when the tank's flooded. 

As for alternatives, you can always use plastic mesh sheets used for thread arts from the local craft store and attach them using suction cups. I did that on a tank I kept when I lived in Atlanta and it worked really well. Many people use this method for making walls of moss with great success (that's what I did). All you need to do is sandwich a thin layer of moss between two sheets, zip-tie them together, attach the suction cups somehow (I used more zip-ties) and stick it to the glass. Although I haven't yet done it with Anubias, ferns, or H. pinnatifida, my guess is it would work just as well.

I've been considering trying a similar method using a layer of coconut fiber matting sandwiched between two sheets of plastic mesh for rooting epiphytes too. FAN's started growing large mats of ferns and foreground species in such fiber matting and they look great! With a little patience you could probably use any species you want in a setup like that as the matting provides a great rooting medium. The only question with that material is if it will hold up for a long time underwater. My guess is that it will. 

My last recommendation would be to join the Atlanta Area Aquarium Association if you haven't already. They're an awesome group of people and there are quite a few plant enthusiasts among them. Definitely worth checking out. roud:


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## MamaJu (Jun 4, 2013)

Thank you for the advice. I'll try out the mesh and the suction cup this weekend since it's probably the most cost effective. 

I will look into the Atlanta Area Aquarium Association too. I'm looking forward to meeting other hobbist in the area.


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## MB2 (Feb 6, 2007)

Wow. A tank of this size going Dutch style will be a treat to see when all filled in. Can't wait. Your writing is always clear, thoughtful and details. Thank you.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*MamaJu*,

You're quite welcome. I'm really looking forward to following your tank's journey and seeing how it changes over time. It's good to see another hobbyist trying the traditional Dutch method.  I'm also excited to see how our two tanks (my 60, not this big one) compare as they both mature. It's always interesting to me to see how other people do things differently. That's almost always a learning experience for me. 

*MB2*,

Thank you very much for your encouragement. I sometimes wonder if I'm just talking to myself on forums. LOL We're all here to learn from each other, right? I've already made some changes to plans for this tank and the smaller one based on what I saw in your thread. roud: If only I could grow A. 'petite' as well as you. You've got a gift with that species!


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

Yep, you're definitely talking to yourself. But keep it up, it's entertaining.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

LOL Crazy, thanks a lot.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

crazymittens said:


> Yep, you're definitely talking to yourself. But keep it up, it's entertaining.


For each poster, you have 10-50X more folks reading/lurking.


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

crazymittens said:


> Yep, you're definitely talking to yourself. But keep it up, it's entertaining.





plantbrain said:


> For each poster, you have 10-50X more folks reading/lurking.


I feel that way lots of times when I post in my journal but at least I can go back and look at it for reference and like Tom said there's a lot more people that are sitting on the sidelines reading. I'm looking forward to watching this tank come together. I'm hoping more people will be inspired to try traditional Dutch tanks and maybe someday I will remove the hard scape from my tank and do the traditional route.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yeah, the time-lapse log of a journal is really nice to have. Just going back and seeing pics from a week ago surprised me. Things have grown more than I'd noticed from seeing the tank every day. 

ua hua,

DO IT! What's old is new again.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

An old fart with a new smell

You see and view things differently also over time, it also gives you a good reference to compare growth rates and care. You can look back and see the contrast again and decide if you want to use that again or not.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

plantbrain said:


> An old fart with a new smell


You wearing a different cologne these days?


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## ua hua (Oct 30, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> An old fart with a new smell
> 
> You see and view things differently also over time, it also gives you a good reference to compare growth rates and care. You can look back and see the contrast again and decide if you want to use that again or not.





Phil Edwards said:


> You wearing a different cologne these days?


You guys just made my day:hihi: 

I haven't laughed that hard in quite awhile.


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## MB2 (Feb 6, 2007)

Phil Edwards said:


> *MamaJu*,
> 
> *MB2*,
> 
> Thank you very much for your encouragement. I sometimes wonder if I'm just talking to myself on forums. LOL We're all here to learn from each other, right? I've already made some changes to plans for this tank and the smaller one based on what I saw in your thread. roud: If only I could grow A. 'petite' as well as you. You've got a gift with that species!


No, you are not. On the contrary, you are talking to the masses. You don't hear back because the mass is busy listening and taking notes.

I am very glad you could find something useful out of my setup.

Again, thank you and others who spend countless hours writing to share their knowledge.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

MB2 said:


> No, you are not. On the contrary, you are talking to the masses. You don't hear back because the mass is busy listening and taking notes.


I'll start writing my posts in note for them for easier copying.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 2.22.14-*

Took the Shinnersia rivularis and Saggitaria subdulata out of the 60 and tossed them in here. That's about it.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

This is a stupid question but how did you get the plants to stay on the styrofoam panels on the walls of the aquarium?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Magic. roud:

I bent some finishing nails into a U and used them like big staples. That's not a dumb question at all. I had trouble figuring out how to get rhizomes that thick on a wall when I first tried it. I couldn't find staples big or sturdy enough for a full sized A. nana and didn't want to use glue. I tried bending finishing nails I had laying around and they worked perfectly. Heavy duty construction staples usually work great for anything with a thinner rhizome than an A. nana. The moss was just stuffed in cracks between panels or was rubbed onto the wall itself to scrape little pieces off. Because the styro was torched first it's got some good texture and a rough surface that tiny moss fragments stick to easily. Sometimes even larger bits too.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Updates?


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## Grumpy1415 (Oct 15, 2013)

Can you please give us an update?


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

I don't want to speak for Phil but the last I know he was tearing these tanks down. I got some fish and plants from him out of these tanks appx 2 months ago right before he was getting ready to do so


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

Man that's a shame if he did, any reason why? And did he scrap his whole basement or just thus tank?


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## ROYWS3 (Feb 1, 2014)

I pretty sure he was keeping the tanks for future projects.


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## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Where's he been?


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I've been here and there and places in-between. 

The whole room project got scrapped and the tanks got moved into a different space. Roy got sent home with a load of plants 3x bigger than he probably needed, hahahah! The room is nice to be in when it's warm, but as soon as late fall hits it gets too cold to enjoy. That, on top of the cost of running the big guys necessitated a change of venue. I hope to eventually set them back up in their new space, but time will tell. 

It was a nice project to have while it lasted.


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## UDGags (Sep 13, 2009)

I was wondering what happened....I kept looking for updates....I'm going back in for a 2nd round with my dutch


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I'll be setting this back up again as a fully planted tank again someday. Not exactly sure when that will be though. The company moved down to Northeastern Alabama a few months ago and I finally got transferred down to the factory not too long ago. The behemoths are going to eventually get their own room at the new facility with the intention of getting them up as displays rather than testing systems like they were before. I'll make sure to document the whole procedure when the day comes. 

The 60 gallon's going in my place once I finally find somewhere to live. That one will be up and going sooner than the big boys. Again, I'll be updating that thread when the time comes. 

Looking forward to seeing the updates on your system UDGags! I need some inspiration.


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## crazymittens (Jun 4, 2012)

He's alive! Glad to hear this isn't wholly abandoned. Be sure to post the new build link here...


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

When the time comes, I will do!


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

*Captain's Log 5.6.15, the Final Voyage of the Star Tank Behemoth*

What she looked like before tear down.


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## andrewss (Oct 17, 2012)

wowzers! thats a lot of green lol


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Yup. It filled a few 30 gallon trash bags.


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