# Is it silly to try T5's or T8's as a more affordable tank lighting solution?



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

So someone had mentioned these to me as a potential aquarium light .....









SunBlaster 3ft T5HO 39W 6400K with NanoTech T5 Reflector Combo


FREE shipping on eligible orders over $149. Discreet delivery in Canada. Lowest price on SunBlaster Combo Neon T5 39 W 3ft + Nanotech Reflector guaranteed with our Price Match Guarantee. Financing available.




indoorgrowingcanada.com





Long story short, my Fluval kit light is probably too weak for my deep 29G tall but I don't want to shell out 200$-300$ for a light. Is there any hope of fudging something?

Some people mentioned Hygger or Nicrews which could be cool but then others insist they won't be any better than the Fluval I have..... I'm not amazing at comprehending light specs.

I know I had a light thread already but I haven't really processed the subject yet, lol. Haelp.


----------



## Starry Night (May 31, 2013)

While T5s might be cheaper initially, the bulbs don't last that long before the intensity and spectrum start to change. Factor in the need to replace bulbs every 6-9 months and the value of LEDs becomes apparent.

There is nothing wrong with T5s, I successfully used them on a reef tank and planted tanks ~10 years ago when they were the state of the art. But the bulbs aren't cheap!


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Starry Night said:


> While T5s might be cheaper initially, the bulbs don't last that long before the intensity and spectrum start to change. Factor in the need to replace bulbs every 6-9 months and the value of LEDs becomes apparent.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with T5s, I successfully used them on a reef tank and planted tanks ~10 years ago when they were the state of the art. But the bulbs aren't cheap!


Mmm that makes sense. Some people say tho that cheaper leds like nicrew and hygger also deteriorate quickly and are thus not worth it.... but other people say they last well? So hard to decide without trying stuff out


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

While T5 bulbs initially drop PAR slightly and slightly alter their spectrums after a relatively short period of use, once done they don't budge until they eventually burn out (years in many cases) so replacing them once per year or whatever you red online is a bit misleading. Most T5 users right now don't ever change their bulbs, and they have zero issues. 

The SunBlaster T5's are amazing for planted tanks, I am running 6 of them at the moment and will be purchasing more when I setup a new tank or two.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Quagulator said:


> While T5 bulbs initially drop PAR slightly and slightly alter their spectrums after a relatively short period of use, once done they don't budge until they eventually burn out (years in many cases) so replacing them once per year or whatever you red online is a bit misleading. Most T5 users right now don't ever change their bulbs, and they have zero issues.
> 
> The SunBlaster T5's are amazing for planted tanks, I am running 6 of them at the moment and will be purchasing more when I setup a new tank or two.


Nice!!! How much heat do they put out, would that be an issue? Is the spectrum of the white ones ok or should I get a rainbow like you? 

How hard are they to suspend/ stand up on braces, could they sit on top of a transparent tank top?


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I think a simple 2 bulb fixture would work great for you. Others will be able to better answer about the spectrum, but this could be a simple start to improve your lighting.


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

Nothing wrong with older tech, some of the gurus of the hobby use T5s to good effect. Look around your area, there is a lighting supplier close to me that sells T5 replacement bulbs at an excellent price. When I ran a 29gallon I used a CFL fixture and achieved almost overwhelming growth.

Also, nothing wrong with the Nicrews, I have a Nicrew on my Fluval Spec V now that has achieved some pretty great growth over a matter of weeks. If you buy from Amazon you can try them out for a bit and return if they disappoint. Also, at least where I am, the Nicrews are so cheap that it's no big deal if they fizzle out after a couple years. They're also fairly slim, and you can double up without too much of a hit to the pocketbook if you need to. I did try a Hygger, I found it not as bright as the Nicrews, also a lot bulkier.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jellopuddinpop said:


> I think a simple 2 bulb fixture would work great for you. Others will be able to better answer about the spectrum, but this could be a simple start to improve your lighting.


I’ll look around for those!


CharminderVaas said:


> Nothing wrong with older tech, some of the gurus of the hobby use T5s to good effect. Look around your area, there is a lighting supplier close to me that sells T5 replacement bulbs at an excellent price. When I ran a 29gallon I used a CFL fixture and achieved almost overwhelming growth.
> 
> Also, nothing wrong with the Nicrews, I have a Nicrew on my Fluval Spec V now that has achieved some pretty great growth over a matter of weeks. If you buy from Amazon you can try them out for a bit and return if they disappoint. Also, at least where I am, the Nicrews are so cheap that it's no big deal if they fizzle out after a couple years. They're also fairly slim, and you can double up without too much of a hit to the pocketbook if you need to. I did try a Hygger, I found it not as bright as the Nicrews, also a lot bulkier.


would you rather recommend nicrew or T5, since you ran both?


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> I’ll look around for those!
> 
> would you rather recommend nicrew or T5, since you ran both?


Between the T5 fixture that you linked and a Nicrew, I would probably go with a Nicrew. It's a purpose-built aquarium light and has a sleeker look. I use the SkyLED and it's quite slim and very bright. Only issue is that it's not waterproof.

EDIT: For a 29gallon I would probably try the RGB+W, it apparently has the same PAR as the SkyLED of the same length, plus it's waterproof and programmable, fully worth it IMO for less than $20 more.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> I’ll look around for those!
> 
> would you rather recommend nicrew or T5, since you ran both?


 There are probably a half dozen or so needs/wants regarding picking lighting.

The one universal is both, with the proper plants/ intensity/husbandry grow plants just fine. 

For an idea of color combinations..








Share Your Bulb Combo Thread


[QUOTE="Grobbins48, post: 11390361, member: 348418"]I'll need to look through my notes, but I feel like somewhere in this thread I must have posted a similar setup to what you mentioned.[QUOTE] Another fine example of the need for a "bookmark" option on the forum. Nearly every single time I get...




www.plantedtank.net


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

They also have these near me..... wonder if there was a way to just add this LED one to what I already have....


----------



## Jaguar (Oct 13, 2011)

Quagulator said:


> Most T5 users right now don't ever change their bulbs, and they have zero issues.


I replace mine every year... it's like night and day when that new bulb goes in lol. You don't notice how dim they've gotten until you replace them.

I have 2 year old Nicrew Classic+, nice little light.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Maybe the nicrew will be a more reasonable, less faffy choice.... wish I could see some clear comparisons of the nicrew vs the Fluval but it’s like all the lights makers have vowed to never give the same type of strength unit for their lights...


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Jaguar said:


> I replace mine every year... it's like night and day when that new bulb goes in lol. You don't notice how dim they've gotten until you replace them.
> 
> I have 2 year old Nicrew Classic+, nice little light.


I'm not saying they don't drop off, I'm saying once they drop off, they stay at that level until they physically die.

Replace them if you want, or just accept that they drop off after a month and then sit there for 11 more months until you replace them.

I personally just accept they drop off quick, and if I want more light I just use another SunBlaster T5-HO for roughly the same cost as 1 new bulb.


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Maybe the nicrew will be a more reasonable, less faffy choice.... wish I could see some clear comparisons of the nicrew vs the Fluval but it’s like all the lights makers have vowed to never give the same type of strength unit for their lights...


I think you should use the photone app to get a par reading of your fluval fixture (it wont necessarily be accurate but should be good enough for comparison purposes). Order a nicrew and use the app under the same conditions to get a comparison reading. If the nicrew has enough of a par delta to justify the purchase, hang onto it. Otherwise send it back.



LidijaPN said:


> Maybe the nicrew will be a more reasonable, less faffy choice.... wish I could see some clear comparisons of the nicrew vs the Fluval but it’s like all the lights makers have vowed to never give the same type of strength unit for their lights...


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

CharminderVaas said:


> I think you should use the photone app to get a par reading of your fluval fixture (it wont necessarily be accurate but should be good enough for comparison purposes). Order a nicrew and use the app under the same conditions to get a comparison reading. If the nicrew has enough of a par delta to justify the purchase, hang onto it. Otherwise send it back.


That’s a cool idea but the returning is always hassle and paying shipping fees... might try anyway, eventually. If the nicrew ends up insufficient might just get two nicrews lol

I just wish there was a quick easy cheapish solution but there doesn’t seem to be...

Even considered buying used lights from the local group though god knows that’s a cat in a bag... but people always price them way higher than I’m willing to pay for a second hand light...

Basically I’m mad at Fluval for selling a crap light in their kit and valuing it so high. Like buying a second crappy Fluval would be like two nicrews.



Quagulator said:


> I'm not saying they don't drop off, I'm saying once they drop off, they stay at that level until they physically die.
> 
> Replace them if you want, or just accept that they drop off after a month and then sit there for 11 more months until you replace them.
> 
> I personally just accept they drop off quick, and if I want more light I just use another SunBlaster T5-HO for roughly the same cost as 1 new bulb.


Have you ever tried the SunBlaster LEDs? They seem just as affordable as the T5...

ok so I got the app and just as I thought the light is giving like barely over 20 PAR at substrate..... my jar light is better. 

Dang.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

LidijaPN said:


> Have you ever tried the SunBlaster LEDs? They seem just as affordable as the T5...


I haven't tried the LED versions, however I have heard they are about equivalent to a T5-HO, just note the visual colour may or may not be ideal - like a bulb, you are stuck with whatever color you buy. 

I will likely end up trying the LED bulbs in the near future.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Would anyone who has one of the Nicrew lights be willing to use the Photone app to read its PAR at 18 inches?


----------



## Marc_G (Jul 6, 2012)

LidijaPN said:


> ok so I got the app and just as I thought the light is giving like barely over 20 PAR at substrate..... my jar light is better.
> 
> Dang.


What size tank? I remember 29 gallons but what dimensions?


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Marc_G said:


> What size tank? I remember 29 gallons but what dimensions?


30'' long, 18'' deep, 12'' wide..... When you subtract the substrate height I guess my substrate is at around 16'' from the light....


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Hmmmmmm. Amazon has a couple of Nicrew ClassicLED Pluses on sale for 33$ because of 'cosmetic defects' ..... I wish they'd show a picture, have no idea what they consider to be a 'large cosmetic defect'.... Sort of tempting tho.


----------



## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I use Beamswork LED's and they work well. I am low tech, no CO2, just liquid ferts once a week and get fine growth. Might check then out on Amazon.


----------



## knutter19 (8 mo ago)

use Aquaneat LED lights for planted tanks they work provide all spectrums come in many sizes and arent super expensive



knutter19 said:


> use Aquaneat LED lights for planted tanks they work provide all spectrums come in many sizes and arent super expensive


 also these can be bout off of amazon


----------



## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

For your tank low light is doing you a favor.

If you really wanna push it look for plant growlight for farm/greenhouse use.
Its going to give the most PAR value for money. (most likely way stronger than "high end LEDs".)

I've got one that gives 300PAR (100 is considered high light) at substrate for about $40.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

MoreliaViridis said:


> For your tank low light is doing you a favor.
> 
> If you really wanna push it look for plant growlight for farm/greenhouse use.
> Its going to give the most PAR value for money. (most likely way stronger than "high end LEDs".)
> ...


I thought so too but I wonder if for some plants it's not just too low. Would be fun to try something brighter, guess I could always tone it down again if it seemed to affect things badly.



Leeatl said:


> I use Beamswork LED's and they work well. I am low tech, no CO2, just liquid ferts once a week and get fine growth. Might check then out on Amazon.


Beamsworks seem nice but about double the price of the Nicrew for the same length.... Aquaneat weirdly Amazon CA doesn't really have them. Well they do but not my tank size at the moment....


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

Do you have co2? As par goes up you need co2 or you will guaranteed have an algae farm.


----------



## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

CharminderVaas said:


> Do you have co2? As par goes up you need co2 or you will guaranteed have an algae farm.


Thats.....what many of us have heen telling her.........


----------



## Marc_G (Jul 6, 2012)

LidijaPN said:


> I thought so too but I wonder if for some plants it's not just too low. Would be fun to try something brighter, guess I could always tone it down again if it seemed to affect things badly.


This line made me remember your comment somewhere, to the effect of "How come people buy expensive bright lights then only run them at 20% power"


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Marc_G said:


> This line made me remember your comment somewhere, to the effect of "How come people buy expensive bright lights then only run them at 20% power"


Well I’m aiming for like.... 30 par at substrate? Because now I have less than 20? I definitely don’t want 200 par....


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

You can't trust the output of the photone app unless you've calibrated it against a trusted source. Uncalibrated, it's only useful to measure deltas.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

CharminderVaas said:


> You can't trust the output of the photone app unless you've calibrated it against a trusted source. Uncalibrated, it's only useful to measure deltas.


What are deltas? 😅

I get it’s not any sort of precise measurement. But everyone says this light is crap. It’s only 1260 lumens and it’s a 18’’ deep tank. General consensus of this same forum when I first came here was ‘that’s a terrible light nothing will grow with it except maybe anubias, you need to change it.’ I’m not sure when that advice changed to ‘the light is the only thing saving you from disaster hold on to it for dear life’, but apparently that’s where we are? I’m pretty sure tho that some people have low tech tanks with light higher than this and they didn’t, like, die.... I may be wrong of course!


----------



## Skar (Oct 14, 2019)

I've had t5 ho and I would not recommend them. Waste of money imo, they are hot noisy and need you to constantly replace bulbs. 

You also could look at refurbished led lights. 
All the power at half the price.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Skar said:


> I've had t5 ho and I would not recommend them. Waste of money imo, they are hot noisy and need you to constantly replace bulbs.
> 
> You also could look at refurbished led lights.
> All the power at half the price.


Yeah I was worried they’d be hot. I definitely don’t need hot. 

I’d go for refurbished maybe or this Amazon deal where they’re selling damaged ones at half price... presumably the damage is just cosmetic... 

But I don’t know, maybe I need to be sticking to the awful light. Seriously the more I try to figure all this out the more confused I get.


----------



## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

I have two Beamswork lights running since 2015. I also have a Nicrew ClassicLED+ running since 2019. They are dirt cheap compared to comparable light output T5/T8, _dimmable_ (you'll need to add something like this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07WT8VK28 - it is a dimmer and a timer with slow light ramp up/down for sunrise/sunset), run way, way cooler than bulbs. LED lights *were *expensive, they are not anymore - they are cheaper than bulbs, last *much *longer, run *much *cooler and are dimmable. They also much more compact. If you are thinking about high end $200+ LED lights than find me for the same price traditional lights that come with remote and with all these programmable features to adjust light spectrum, intensity, timings etc. There are none, of course, this is something that is simply not possible with bulbs. The only thing that can go in bulbs favor is better CRI of some most *expensive *bulbs - compared to *cheap* LEDs. Some can say also the fact that you can change bulbs (and so change the light spectrum) instead of changing the whole LED light fixture. The only problem is that changing the whole LED light fixture can be cheaper than changing quality bulbs. TLDR: light bulbs are outdated technology, stay away.


----------



## Skar (Oct 14, 2019)

LidijaPN said:


> Yeah I was worried they’d be hot. I definitely don’t need hot.
> 
> I’d go for refurbished maybe or this Amazon deal where they’re selling damaged ones at half price... presumably the damage is just cosmetic...
> 
> But I don’t know, maybe I need to be sticking to the awful light. Seriously the more I try to figure all this out the more confused I get.


Not sure what you're confused about ?
I'm assuming you are getting way to technical. Don't get to caught up in par pur etc... 
I recommend that you get a good led light and a little trial and error.

Also some home repair stores ( home depot) have a hydroponics where you can put together a led lighting system. Haven't tried it myself but looks promising.


----------



## MoreliaViridis (May 19, 2021)

CharminderVaas said:


> You can't trust the output of the photone app unless you've calibrated it against a trusted source. Uncalibrated, it's only useful to measure deltas.


Mine was pretty close before calibration. 3 PAR difference.

But I'm unsure how that works underwater. For Apogee instrument thingy you have to multiply 1.3 on the readings to convert it to submersed measurements.
Does Photone need any conversion? If it does then by how much?

Also it kinda didn't work on my large LED unit. I think its confusing between lighting types because of all that added spectrums..


----------



## Blackheart (Jul 5, 2011)

I think I would prefer the T8 fixtures since you can easily get them at hardware stores and stuff. But I use a Finnex Stingray fixture which is pretty cheap I feel like compared to a lot of other high end fixtures. I have been using it for two years and it still seems to be going strong.


----------



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

JC&P Full Spectrum and Hygger Advanced 24/7 are a few budget LED's to consider also. 

Adjustable, built in timers, dimmable etc.


----------



## ddiomede (Feb 21, 2011)

As someone who has had almost every kind of light, including metal halides, the best bang for your buck is going to be LED. 

There are pros to using T5's, but you have tradeoffs to consider that IMHO outweigh the pros. T5's generate more heat than a comparable sized LED light. Electricity costs are also higher. 

When I set up a reef tank a friend gave me his T5 fixture he used before he went with LED's. I ran it for close to a year and my electricity bill was noticeably higher. The one thing I knew about them is that they tended to generate a lot of heat based on my last planted tank. During the summer, unless the A/C was on, my temps rose into the 80's. Before summer arrived, I intended on running the A/C whenever the temp exceeded 76-78 degrees. The heat was more manageable, but I began wanting to keep SPS corals which just didn't seem to do as well under the T5's so I went with metal halides and oh boy did the costs of electricity skyrocket. I calculated what I was paying in electricity, bulb replacement, etc. and dove right into LED's and haven't looked back since. 

It's hard to beat the colors you get from T5's, but the tradeoffs are higher operating costs over the long term and heat. PAR also begins to drop off significantly at around the 6 month mark. A friend of mine had a PAR meter and I'd borrow it from him once a month just to test the bulbs to see when they needed replacement. As soon as I hit the 6 months mark PAR would begin to degrade rapidly. I wound up giving the T5 fixture back to my friend, and sold the MH lights and picked up a Chinese LED panel during a group buy with a local reef group. Kessil came out with a pretty high powered light that was controllable by the Apex so I went with that. The savings in electricity costs really outweighed the price of the LED. I honestly could have just used that Chinese LED because it was incredibly powerful, even more so than the Kessil. The only reason I didn't continue using it is because I wanted to control the light through my Apex and at the time you only had two options....Kessil and Radions. 

If I'm getting comparable results, with a slightly higher initial investment, by the end of the year what I've saved in electricity and bulbs more than pays for that higher initial cost over T5. 

I would recommend getting a controllable LED though. You'll want to be able to control the intensity of the light.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Skar said:


> Not sure what you're confused about ?
> I'm assuming you are getting way to technical. Don't get to caught up in par pur etc...
> I recommend that you get a good led light and a little trial and error.
> 
> Also some home repair stores ( home depot) have a hydroponics where you can put together a led lighting system. Haven't tried it myself but looks promising.


Oh the tech part is confusing but that’s not what I’m confused about hahah...

I’m confused with getting two directly opposite waves of advice, both supported very strongly by people who have a lot of experience with planted tanking.... one side claims the Fluval light is just below minimum and a portion of my plants is just not growing at all because they cannot eek out enough light for themselves, and I should definitely get a somewhat stronger light. Not crazy strong but just above the bare minimum for any sort of growth. The other side is saying that because it’s a low tech system, the low light is actually doing me a favor and with more light my plants would struggle even more and I’d have algae because the system would be driven beyond its capacity because the lack of CO2 is the bottleneck.

They both sound pretty convincing and very very sure of themselves.... hence the confusion 😅

Yap you guys are right, there’s actually more affordable LED options than I’d thought.... I’ll compare them a bit and see what’s available on amazon.ca I guess. And then I need to decide whether more light will murder my tank 😅


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

LidijaPN said:


> Oh the tech part is confusing but that’s not what I’m confused about hahah...
> 
> I’m confused with getting two directly opposite waves of advice, both supported very strongly by people who have a lot of experience with planted tanking.... one side claims the Fluval light is just below minimum and a portion of my plants is just not growing at all because they cannot eek out enough light for themselves, and I should definitely get a somewhat stronger light. Not crazy strong but just above the bare minimum for any sort of growth. The other side is saying that because it’s a low tech system, the low light is actually doing me a favor and with more light my plants would struggle even more and I’d have algae because the system would be driven beyond its capacity because the lack of CO2 is the bottleneck.
> 
> They both sound pretty convincing and very very sure of themselves.... hence the confusion 😅


Have you considered that both sides are correct? Your plants are struggling because of the light, but your low light is what’s keeping your algae at bay? Both things can be true at the same time…


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Yap you guys are right, there’s actually more affordable LED options than I’d thought.... I’ll compare them a bit and see what’s available on amazon.ca I guess. And then I need to decide whether more light will murder my tank 😅


Fortunately your tank is (assumed 12") narrow so one fixture should do..








NICREW SkyLED Plus Aquarium Light for Planted Tanks, Full Spectrum Freshwater Fish Tank Light, Light Brightness and Spectrum Adjustable with External Controller, 30-36 Inches, 30 Watts : Amazon.ca: Everything Else


NICREW SkyLED Plus Aquarium Light for Planted Tanks, Full Spectrum Freshwater Fish Tank Light, Light Brightness and Spectrum Adjustable with External Controller, 30-36 Inches, 30 Watts : Amazon.ca: Everything Else



www.amazon.ca












hygger Auto On Off 12-55 Inch LED Aquarium Light Extendable Dimmable 7 Colors Full Spectrum Light Fixture for Freshwater Planted Tank Build in Timer Sunrise Sunset (48W(30"-36")) : Amazon.ca


hygger Auto On Off 12-55 Inch LED Aquarium Light Extendable Dimmable 7 Colors Full Spectrum Light Fixture for Freshwater Planted Tank Build in Timer Sunrise Sunset (48W(30"-36")) : Amazon.ca



www.amazon.ca


----------



## Skar (Oct 14, 2019)

LidijaPN said:


> Yap you guys are right, there’s actually more affordable LED options than I’d thought.... I’ll compare them a bit and see what’s available on amazon.ca I guess. And then I need to decide whether more light will murder my tank 😅


I agree both sides are correct.
Co2 definitely helps control algea.
I've had algea wars in the past, and co2 definitely helps.

Lighting needs to be fairly strong while,
Injected co2 and alot of algea eating fish and inverts was the answer in my tank.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Have you considered that both sides are correct? Your plants are struggling because of the light, but your low light is what’s keeping your algae at bay? Both things can be true at the same time…


sure but then..... increase the light? Don't increase the lights? Noodles? ....don't noodles?

Can I increase the light a wickle bit and maybe let the plants thrive a wickle bit more and maybe they will keep algae at bay, or l keep the organics lean? I feel a bit like an alien here but low tech tanks are a thing, aren't they? I'm not just like being randomly weird?


----------



## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

LidijaPN said:


> sure but then..... increase the light? Don't increase the lights? Noodles? ....don't noodles?
> 
> Can I increase the light a wickle bit and maybe let the plants thrive a wickle bit more and maybe they will keep algae at bay, or l keep the organics lean? I feel a bit like an alien here but low tech tanks are a thing, aren't they? I'm not just like being randomly weird?


Only you can decide if that's what you want to do. You're all for experimenting, so I say go for it.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Only you can decide if that's what you want to do. You're all for experimenting, so I say go for it.


Honestly I think it always makes sense to try. Then if things start to go bad I can tone the lights down to where things aren't going bad any more. And the plants won't be worse off. If I don't change anything I don't learn anything.....?


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Agree with above statements. While you can probably increase light a bit, your tank already looks great imo and near the point where any more lighting will require co2 to keep algae at bay.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> Agree with above statements. While you can probably increase light a bit, your tank already looks great imo and near the point where any more lighting will require co2 to keep algae at bay.


Yeah, I think I'd aim for a minimal increase really, just to see if some plants do even better before things start to algify. I definitely am NOT looking at any sort of high par. 

Are there any loose guiding figures about this? Like '20 PAR is too little for anything', 'low tech tanks should aim for 30-40 PAR at substrate', 'high tech tanks should aim for 70-100 PAR at substrate', or anything like that? Because just thinking of it in terms of 'seems low' or 'seems high' is very vague....... I get there can't be like a 100% precise guide but I'd be interested in like 'I ran a low tech at 40 PAR and could never defeat algae', or 'I grew a low tech at 30 PAR and everything grew great' or whatever.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Fortunately your tank is (assumed 12") narrow so one fixture should do..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yep it's 12, one would cover it.... Those are exactly the two I was trying to pick between hahah. Do you have a favorite? Hygger seems overall stronger and is waterproof which is a plus, but people told me they have horrible tech support and Nicrew guys are better if things go wrong..... Also Hygger has some programming complications? Someone was saying their programming was not flexible.. but I don't remember what the issue was exactly... Price is close enough I guess. Which one would you go for?


----------



## CharminderVaas (8 mo ago)

Totally understand your confusion. Ultimately you have to tweak things a bit and see how things go. There's still a lot of trial and error in this hobby. What works for me may not work for you. 



LidijaPN said:


> yep it's 12, one would cover it.... Those are exactly the two I was trying to pick between hahah. Do you have a favorite? Hygger seems overall stronger and is waterproof which is a plus, but people told me they have horrible tech support and Nicrew guys are better if things go wrong..... Also Hygger has some programming complications? Someone was saying their programming was not flexible.. but I don't remember what the issue was exactly... Price is close enough I guess. Which one would you go for?


FWIW I found the Hygger to be dimmer than the Nicrews despite running at a significantly higher wattage.


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> increase the light? Don't increase the lights? Noodles? ....don't noodles?


I vote going with Noodles...

I know this post is about lights, but wouldn't testing out CO2 injection first be a cheaper option? There's premade DIY kits.

If you're going with lights, I suggest LED all the way. However, I've only ever had LED lights. I use Radion Pros on my reef tank controlled by Apex, and it's been running without fail for over 6 years (knock on wood).

I'm a super noob to planted tanks, so take my advice with half a grain of salt.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

NanoNoodle said:


> I vote going with Noodles...
> 
> I know this post is about lights, but wouldn't testing out CO2 injection first be a cheaper option? There's premade DIY kits.
> 
> ...


Thing is I just want the tank to be low tech, for lots of reasons. But I do want the plants to do as well as possible, within those confines.... I know for a fact that CO2 would help plants grow better. But my intention is just to run a low tech tank as well as possible. 

It’s really weird, feels like I’m in uncharted territory somehow. There’s ‘normal’ people with high tech tanks and there’s ‘normal’ low tech people who stick to crypts and anubias. But because I’m trying to squeeze a little more out of a low tech setup I start to wade into this weird mid-zone.....


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

You're like a sailor charting across the Atlantic and ending up in the unknowns of the bermuda triangle. Then they see the light and ending up getting co2! Haha well I think that's what most people in this weird zone do, they either go backwards to low tech or forwards to high tech 😄. To answer your question though, every tank has its own variables which makes it hard. You'll just have to experiment a bit to find out what's too high lighting, and what's right. I just adjusted my burst lighting to turn on 30 minutes later, and upped my K dosing a bit. It's all a fun never ending experiment anyway.

Just wanted to also point out that you're in the normal progression to a high tech tank. People get to where you are and find they need higher lighting to improve plant health, they get higher lighting then find out the tank is running too fast, and algae starts having the upper hand. Then there comes the need for co2 to keep up with the higher lighting, then there needs to be more nutrient dosing to keep up with the "faster growth". Welcome to the never ending world of keeping plants growing as optimally as they can. I think when/if you do eventually get co2, you'll have more success since you already have a good amount of experience and foundation on keeping a "mid-tech" non co2 tank. It's all a natural progression in planted tank keeping 😄


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> Just wanted to also point out that you're in the normal progression to a high tech tank. People get to where you are and find they need higher lighting to improve plant health, they get higher lighting then find out the tank is running too fast, and algae starts having the upper hand. Then there comes the need for co2 to keep up with the higher lighting, then there needs to be more nutrient dosing to keep up with the "faster growth". Welcome to the never ending world of keeping plants growing as optimally as they can. I think when/if you do eventually get co2, you'll have more success since you already have a good amount of experience and foundation on keeping a "mid-tech" non co2 tank. It's all a natural progression in planted tank keeping 😄


Good to know I'm on the right path at least  And that freedom of choice and self direction is a myth in a deterministic universe 😂

Oh by the way what does everyone feel about really short and strong bursts of light? Another multi-decade tank guru swears by having the lights on for just 2-3 hours but really strong...... says it works great for his low tech tank..... is it some sort of newbie hazing thing or does that technique really work?


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Yeah the thing with low tech tanks is people who have them don't really care about plants looking their best or care about getting higher demanding stem plants and pushing the limits. It seems like you do really care about plant health and its very hard to stay in that middle zone. Either you want the best health for your plants or decent health is okay. High tech vs low tech. And if its best growth for your plants you want, a high tech tank will help you achieve that goal much easier fighting the middle ground. It's not that much more maintenance really.

Not sure about burst lighting for low tech, but for me it works best since I am using two non dimmable lights on my high tech 20 gallon and two lights at full strength is too much. I can only adjust the lighting period. I set one at a full 8 hours a day and adjust the other at 4-6 hours depending on what the tank needs. Then I observe growth and decide if I want to further adjust. You can probably do the same with your set up, leave your current light on the same duration, get a new light and start with 2 hours burst in the middle of your photoperiod, up 3 hours the next week, and so on. Once you observe no changes in growth over the week and/or algae kicking in thats your limit, back off a little.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> Yeah the thing with low tech tanks is people who have them don't really care about plants looking their best or care about getting higher demanding stem plants and pushing the limits. It seems like you do really care about plant health and its very hard to stay in that middle zone. Either you want the best health for your plants or decent health is okay. High tech vs low tech. And if its best growth for your plants you want, a high tech tank will help you achieve that goal much easier fighting the middle ground. It's not that much more maintenance really.
> 
> Not sure about burst lighting for low tech, but for me it works best since I am using two non dimmable lights on my high tech 20 gallon and two lights at full strength is too much. I can only adjust the lighting period. I set one at a full 8 hours a day and adjust the other at 4-6 hours depending on what the tank needs. Then I observe growth and decide if I want to further adjust. You can probably do the same with your set up, leave your current light on the same duration, get a new light and start with 2 hours burst in the middle of your photoperiod, up 3 hours the next week, and so on. Once you observe no changes in growth over the week and/or algae kicking in thats your limit, back off a little.


I’m kinda excited to mess with the lights!! 

I get why staying in the middle would be hard. But people like sudiorca just tickle my imagination of what’s possible, maybe maybe.....


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Have fun with the lights, now back to the hard question, which light to buy haha. Sudiorca's tanks are an outlier for sure, and also very hard to achieve. His tank requires a lot of experimentation seeing what works and doesn't and observing plant behavior given a controlled input. You can see this in his posts experimenting new ideas and pushing the boundaries.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Eric Tran said:


> Have fun with the lights, now back to the hard question, which light to buy haha. Sudiorca's tanks are an outlier for sure, and also very hard to achieve. His tank requires a lot of experimentation seeing what works and doesn't and observing plant behavior given a controlled input. You can see this in his posts experimenting new ideas and pushing the boundaries.


I swear what he’s doing is like magic.... and pushing really high PAR too.... 

Yeah I think I keep coming back to that Nicrew. I think it’s what I was thinking last time too, before I gave up on the whole thing because what if algae.


----------



## ddiomede (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm putting the over/under at 8/15/2022 for when you decide to do CO2


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

We could take in some bets and make some cash lol


----------



## Chucker (Apr 9, 2011)

ddiomede said:


> I'm putting the over/under at 8/15/2022 for when you decide to do CO2



I'm in for $10 US that it's over.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Ok wait I have more thoughts on this. Hear me out.

I have one really deep tank, one jar and one grow out bucket, right? They each have different light but obviously none has CO2.

Now when I test the lights with the Photone app, even if the number is incorrect the relationship shouldn’t be, right? Now it shows the tank as 20 par at substrate, jar as 25, and bucket as 32 or so.

But none of these have any algae. The bucket is pure dirt on the bottom!! Got a bit of green dust, I reduced photo period by 2 hrs and it’s completely stopped. I’m not even changing the water.

Wouldn’t that indicate that the tank could take a little more? Or should I be comparing the lights at the same height?


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

It would indicate that your 20 could take a bit more par. You’re on the right track 👍


----------



## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

@LidijaPN BTW, I've measured PAR using this Photone app on my two low tech tanks and it showed 12 on one and 25 on another. Not sure how precise is this measurement, I didn't try to calibrate it. I guess I need to upgrade light on one of the tanks.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Oso Polar said:


> @LidijaPN BTW, I've measured PAR using this Photone app on my two low tech tanks and it showed 12 on one and 25 on another. Not sure how precise is this measurement, I didn't try to calibrate it. I guess I need to upgrade light on one of the tanks.


It’s probably super imprecise but I guess it’s enough for comparisons.... but if everyone looks happy in the Dark Tank, let them enjoy the gloom? 😊 if everyone in mine was happy I’d be letting them be...



Eric Tran said:


> It would indicate that your 20 could take a bit more par. You’re on the right track 👍


So you think I was right to measure each at their own substrate level, not all at the same height? Someone pointed out with a deeper tank enough par at substrate demands maybe too much par on water surface.... not sure how to account for that.


----------



## Oso Polar (Apr 22, 2015)

Of course, what is the point of measuring at the same height? The same light may be high light for a shallow tank and low for a deep tank.
PS. On the street Photone showed 1050 PAR under direct 3pm NY sun.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

Oso Polar said:


> Of course, what is the point of measuring at the same height? The same light may be high light for a shallow tank and low for a deep tank.
> PS. On the street Photone showed 1050 PAR under direct 3pm NY sun.


Yap I figured the same but wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something obvious....

Hahaha wow yeah the sun is something else 😅 I’m tempted to go around measuring all lights now hahahah. I bought a round ‘grow light’ bulb to use over my new jar that doesn’t exist yet, can’t wait to measure that....


----------



## Eric Tran (Jul 7, 2016)

Yep doesn’t need to be same height. How you measured it is fine.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

Depending on how crafty you are it is fairly easy to swap out the PCB and driver in your current light for about 20$ and make it a dimmable 200umol fixture, while also improving your spectrum.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Depending on how crafty you are it is fairly easy to swap out the PCB and driver in your current light for about 20$ and make it a dimmable 200umol fixture, while also improving your spectrum.


Oh wow would there be any tutorials on this out there? Will google!!


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> It’s probably super imprecise but I guess it’s enough for comparisons.... but if everyone looks happy in the Dark Tank, let them enjoy the gloom? 😊 if everyone in mine was happy I’d be letting them be...
> 
> 
> So you think I was right to measure each at their own substrate level, not all at the same height? Someone pointed out with a deeper tank enough par at substrate demands maybe too much par on water surface.... not sure how to account for that.


Height.... At the expense of par of course.
These charts tell a story. Look at par change from 15-20 va 25-30.









There are other methods such as diffusers.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Height.... At the expense of par of course.
> These charts tell a story. Look at par change from 15-20 va 25-30.
> View attachment 1043896
> 
> ...


That’s inches of depth? So weird how everyone falls together into the same zone after a while.... sooo according to this chart I need a Finnex Ray 2


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> That’s inches of depth? So weird how everyone falls together into the same zone after a while.... sooo according to this chart I need a Finnex Ray 2


Ray II's were strong but poor color rendering.
7000k white diodes. 
Used to be paired with a " Monster ray" for color.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Oh wow would there be any tutorials on this out there? Will google!!


Replacing your light's internal strips with only 2 Bridgelux EB strips would give you approximately 92.72 umol/s/m2 with a 98cri at surface level. Compensating a 15% decrease of intensity for water refraction, and another 40% estimated drop for 12 inches of depth, gives you about 31.52 umol/s/m2 just above substrate level. This may not be a huge bump in your par, but it would be a huge increase in spectral range without impacting your algal levels. These strips cost about $11 USD a piece. 





BXEB-L0560Z-50S2000-C-C3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-50S2000-C-C3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Cool Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.com


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Replacing your light's internal strips with only 2 Bridgelux EB strips would give you approximately 92.72 umol/s/m2 with a 98cri at surface level. Compensating a 15% decrease of intensity for water refraction, and another 40% estimated drop for 12 inches of depth, gives you about 31.52 umol/s/m2 just above substrate level. This may not be a huge bump in your par, but it would be a huge increase in spectral range without impacting your algal levels. These strips cost about $11 USD a piece.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




















So my light looks like this at the moment... it couldn’t fit 2 strips but the casing has room for a second strip.... it would need something to hold it I guess....? Also my water depth is 14 inches... these look really cool tho. I can’t figure out how long they are? 56 cm? My tank is 75cm long, would that be a reasonable fit or would I need longer ones? Could I use three? Hmmmmm..... do I need a soldering iron? 😂

I could possibly hack something together because they sit on top of a transparent canopy so they’re not exposed to the water directly....

What’s the relationship between umols and PAR? This is a lot of numbers for a linguist 😂


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> View attachment 1043927
> 
> View attachment 1043928
> 
> ...


"PAR" is a misused common term for PPFD.
When people say "par" they mean ppfd...not par.
Real meaning of PAR is a definition not a measurement








Going Beyond PAR: Your Guide to Horticultural Lighting Terms • LumiGrow


Take your grow light knowledge beyond PAR and to the next level with these horticultural lighting terms. Additional topics include PPF, PPFD, DLI, and PPE.




www.lumigrow.com




.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> "PAR" is a misused common term for PPFD.
> When people say oar they mean ppfd...not par.
> Real meaning of PAR is a definition not a measurement
> 
> ...


sooooo.... 92.72 umol/s/m2 would mean 92.72 PAR/ PPFD at surface?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> sooooo.... would mean 92.72 PAR/ PPFD at surface?


Yes..but really ppfd...not par. 
92.72 is ppfd .. 92.72 umol/s/m2 of par radiation (400-700 nm )

Sorry pet peeve...
I can accept, not condone it...


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Yes..but really ppfd...not par.
> 92.72 is ppfd .. 92.72 umol/s/m2 of par radiation (400-700 nm )
> 
> Sorry pet peeve...
> I can accept, not condone it...


no no I love the correction!! That article was super helpful, I think I get it all now. PAR is just like the spectrum plants use. And PPFD is how much they get per square meter from the light we use at the height we place it. And umol/s/m2 is basically how we measure that. All good now!!

So could I hack together a homemade light? From the strips @RadOtter suggested? Would I need a ton of parts and tools I don't have or could it kind of be McGuyvered somehow? It sounds superbly fun to try!!


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> no no I love the correction!! That article was super helpful, I think I get it all now. PAR is just like the spectrum plants use. And PPFD is how much they get per square meter from the light we use at the height we place it. And umol/s/m2 is basically how we measure that. All good now!!
> 
> So could I hack together a homemade light? From the strips @RadOtter suggested? Would I need a ton of parts and tools I don't have or could it kind of be McGuyvered somehow? It sounds superbly fun to try!!


Bridgelux eb strips have push connects for the wires. Rest is at most screwdriver, glue,
wire, basic electrical safety, wire nuts and electrical tape.

Tinker toy stuff.









I need help with Bridgelux EB strips, I have no idea...


Not for a tank yet, I'm trying to build a indoor garden. (But this will actually help with a tank that I'm planning at a later date, and I trust the knowledge here, sorry if this isn't allowed.) I'm trying to run these strips to a total of 300 watts...




www.plantedtank.net












Bug panel but shows an optional way to wire.


https://support.ilovegrowingmarijuana.com/t/diy-with-bridgelux-eb-strips/18885


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Bridgelux eb strips have push connects for the wires. Rest is at most screwdriver, glue,
> wire, basic electrical safety, wire nuts and electrical tape.
> 
> Tinker toy stuff.
> ...


Ok so to confirm.......

If I got one strip and stuck it next to my existing light.... it would need.......

the strip
a driver? Like this one? LDD-H Series Mean Well Step-Down Mode CC DC-DC LED Drivers Which does.... something? Hahah.
a power supply? Which is actually sort of like an adapter I guess, because it will still plug into a wall socket, right? So that would be something like this? https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-Supp...jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ== Does it have to be 3A or can it also be 2A or 2.5A?
something to mount the light strip on, preferably aluminum? does it need to be stuck on with that thermal transfer tape stuff, or is that just to help it wick away heat?

This might be hugely fun to attempt although honestly once I've bought all this I will have probably spent more than I would on the Nicrew hahah


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Ok so to confirm.......
> 
> If I got one strip and stuck it next to my existing light.... it would need.......
> 
> ...


Well the Bridgelux eb's apparently don't require a heatsink though I would look into some air exchange in the hood, i.e. holes..

So like $ strip,
Pick a model.









$7 ldd- hw, and a 48v ( depends on size of strip voltage of strip plus 3-4 v)power supply.
Control is a bit tricky


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Bit more now that I have some time..
Biggest problem is prob your 90cm need IF I got this whole thread correct.
The smaller strips you can use LDD-LW's but those have some limitations on the choice of controller.

Brief explanation of what an LDD driver does:
Basically it is a voltage regulator that"picks" a voltage based on the led's current draw.
A 700mA LDD will adjust voltage till it senses 700mA of current on the circuit.
It can dim the light by basically turning it on/off at some period..
Turning it on/off at say 50% (50% on/50% off) makes the light look dimmer.
Common signal to the dim circuit is 5V PWM @ like 450Hz.
Tricky huh.
Cheap manual dimmers for "other things" can be used but you need to solder one wire inside the dimmer.
Not difficult if you can solder.
Other than modifying stuff controllers are about $50-$100 dollars.
Would be your biggest expense in this project.



















Good thing is one can dim many LDD's (all the same of course) off one cheap pot.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Bit more now that I have some time..
> Biggest problem is prob your 90cm need IF I got this whole thread correct.
> The smaller strips you can use LDD-LW's but those have some limitations on the choice of controller.
> 
> ...


ok I madly appreciate the help but I don't think you're comprehending how poorly I understand all this stuff ahahhahaha. But nonetheless I shall press bravely on. 

First, when you say 90cm do you mean tank length? Tank is 75cm long. So I guess any strip near that length would work. The ones I'm seeing are 56 cm and I'm guessing that's a little short? But what do I know maybe even that would help. 

Second I don't at all care about dimmers. I'd just as gladly take a fixed intensity strong light I can turn on for just a few hours during the day at whatever the strength is as a boost to my normal sad light. 

So what would I need to just make a light I can turn on and off? With a plug that can go into a wall socket? I can add a cheap mechanical timer onto it like I use for my other lights.

What would be the best warmth to get? My current light is 8000K which is not ideal.... should I go for something like 6500K or would it make more sense to take 3000K/ 3500K to balance out the 8000K?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

590mm 3500k to balance 8000k.
1 ldd..1.BXEB-L0280F-35G1000-S-C,
1 48v switching power supply 50 watts or more.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> 590mm 3500k to balance 8000k.
> 1 ldd..1.BXEB-L0280F-35G1000-S-C,
> 1 48v switching power supply 50 watts or more.


Ok, so.... if I had one of these: (these are available in stock, the one you listed above doesn't seem to be available anywhere I'm looking... not sure what the difference between S2000 and E2000 is...?)





__





BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Warm Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.ca








__





BXEB-L0560Z-30S2000-C-C3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-30S2000-C-C3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Warm Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.ca








__





BXEB-L0560Z-40E4000-C-D3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-40E4000-C-D3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Neutral Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.ca





and one of these:





__





LDD-H Series Mean Well Step-Down Mode CC DC-DC LED Drivers






www.ledsupply.com





and one of these:





__





GST Mean Well Desktop Adaptor Switching Power Supplies
 





www.ledsupply.com





....I could make a light?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

"S" is the " thrive" series .98cri or greater.
Keep in mind at low k cri is based on tungsten light ( think candlelight) not daylight.

E is 80cri
G is 90cri


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> "S" is the " thrive" series .98cri or greater.
> Keep in mind at low k cri is based on tungsten light ( think candlelight) not daylight.
> 
> E is 80cri
> ...


Ok so S would be the best choice because we want highest possible CRI to make sure colors are being rendered well? 

I have to check tomorrow whether all three of those are available to ship to Canada at a reasonable cost... are the driver and power source I linked correct in terms of working with these strips?


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

There doesn’t seem to be much air flow under that hood. Doesn’t the light strip need a heatsink? Also, doesn’t it need to be protected from the water and humidity?

I converted my biocube 14 lights with a kit from Steve’s LEDs and that came with a massive heatsink. Wouldn’t those LEDs burn out quicker without cooling?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

First, CRI isn't as important with low K temp diodes, in my opinion especially when mixing K temps.
Remember 2 different standards are used.
Certainly doesn't hurt but 90 vs 95+ has a much bigger impact at 6500k than at 3000k.

second this one has 2x the flux of the high cri model:

*976-BXEB-L0560Z-35E4000-C-D3-ND*



https://www.bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/DS134%20Bridgelux%20EB%20Series%20Gen3%20High%20Output%20Data%20Sheet%2020200612%20Rev%20A.pdf



Nominal drive is 1400mA @ 19.2V
Watts = Volts x amps = 26.88

Max current is 2800mA. THAT would probably require paying attention to heat sinks and cooling.

19.2 +4V = 23.2V That would be the voltage of the power supply. 24V
Watts are determined by # of strips, the current, and the voltage at that current. As you change voltage you change amp draw.. i.e if you use a 2800mA driver the strip voltage
goes to 20.1V. NOTE the small increase in voltage but a large increase in amp draw and of course wattage... 56.28W ) 

Now keep in mind that using this high powered strip next to an average or less powered strip the "warm-ness" will probably overwhelm the tone.
You need to decide if that is acceptable or do you want a cooler look?
Normally on a power basis most prefer a ratio of 2:1 cool to warm. In the above case you will be the exact opposite probably (assuming I'm right in my judgement of the 8000k strip)
A reason control/dimming is popular. To tailor that but it's always best to have your "preferred mix" be close to overall max output.

So picking the one strip above and err "under-powering from nominal" current with a 1000mA driver..
An LDD-1000HW or LDD 1000LW will probably work

Any 24V power supply with 26.88 watts + 10% (error factor) or greater should work.
Price difference and possible expansion may move you to double or triple the watt output of the power supply.
As to which one "I" prefer the open frame supplies. Easy to wire, good ventilation and cheap.
An LRS-35-24 would do for one strip 35W, 24V $12 US
Personally I'd go to the 3x needed wattage..(10000mA X 19.6V = 19.6W x 3 = 58.8W)
*LRS-75-24 $15 US*
Power supply should be good for any "build" up to a 55gal tank.

Heck, push the bubble a bit up to 1200mA
*LDD-1200LW $7 US*
Get fancy and get a few at that price.
Ldd-L's at or above 1000mA have a pwm voltage needs below 3.3 which lower mA ones won't "do" 3.3V signal (lowest signal voltage is 3.5).
Long story but is important for some controllers like the Bluefish mini.
The mini for some reason choose 3.3V (basic logic circuit choice of 3.3 or 5V)
Most DIY and others usually output 5V so no issue.



NanoNoodle said:


> There doesn’t seem to be much air flow under that hood. Doesn’t the light strip need a heatsink? Also, doesn’t it need to be protected from the water and humidity?
> 
> I converted my biocube 14 lights with a kit from Steve’s LEDs and that came with a massive heatsink. Wouldn’t those LEDs burn out quicker without cooling?


Not according to Bridgelux. 
Steves is a different animal all-together.
Now it wouldn't hurt and probably would have some advantages.. Cooler diodes higher efficiency.

*976-BXEB-L0560Z-35E4000-C-D3-ND*
Correction.. "40" you linked to is 4000k
E is 90 cri
4000 lumens (@1400mA)

Want to keep it on the "cooler" side but improve color..





BXEB-L0560Z-50S2000-C-C3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-50S2000-C-C3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Cool Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.com




Best to adjust driver down to 1000mA.
20.3v + 4 = 24.3.
Open frame power supplies are adj slightly.. so best to raise voltage.
21.6 ~ 28.8V
Another advantage of them over the enclosed "brick" type.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> First, CRI isn't as important with low K temp diodes, in my opinion especially when mixing K temps.
> Remember 2 different standards are used.
> Certainly doesn't hurt but 90 vs 95+ has a much bigger impact at 6500k than at 3000k.


That's super interesting! I didn't know that. So between the two 2000 lumen strips it really doesn't that much matter which I choose, because the CRI won't make a huge difference. 


jeffkrol said:


> second this one has 2x the flux of the high cri model:
> 
> *976-BXEB-L0560Z-35E4000-C-D3-ND*
> 
> ...


Ok so that one is maybe overpowered for my purposes. I'll pick one of the other two. 


jeffkrol said:


> Now keep in mind that using this high powered strip next to an average or less powered strip the "warm-ness" will probably overwhelm the tone.
> You need to decide if that is acceptable or do you want a cooler look?
> Normally on a power basis most prefer a ratio of 2:1 cool to warm. In the above case you will be the exact opposite probably (assuming I'm right in my judgement of the 8000k strip)
> A reason control/dimming is popular. To tailor that but it's always best to have your "preferred mix" be close to overall max output.


Do you think this will still be an issue if I'm taking one of the weaker strips? They will still output more lumens than my old light, my light is 1260 and these would be 2000..... But honestly I'd use them probably for just a few hours per day to give the plants a growth boost. Would that make sense as a usage scenario? The current light is on for 8 hrs per day.... I would add the new one just for a peak light period of around 2-3 hours. Maybe in that scenario dimming wouldn't be necessary. Could still of course be fun to have dimming options, it just makes the project feel more overwhelming and I'm trying to work out what's the simplest possible thing I can pull together just to prove I can actually make a light. Then when I gain a bit of confidence maybe I can expand into accessories lol. 


jeffkrol said:


> So picking the one strip above and err "under-powering from nominal" current with a 1000mA driver..
> An LDD-1000HW or LDD 1000LW will probably work
> 
> Any 24V power supply with 26.88 watts + 10% (error factor) or greater should work.
> ...


These are calculations for the 4000 lumens strip? Yes I would use just a single strip.... probably this one




__





BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3 Bridgelux | Optoelectronics | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3 – LED Lighting COBs Engines Modules LED Module series White, Warm Linear Light Strip from Bridgelux. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.ca




It does have only 80 CRI but it's far more efficient than the 98 CRI one and if it doesn't make a huge difference I might as well benefit from the fact that it's half the price too.



jeffkrol said:


> Best to adjust driver down to 1000mA.
> 20.3v + 4 = 24.3.


Then the driver could be the LDD 1000HW, this one - LDD-H Series Mean Well Step-Down Mode CC DC-DC LED Drivers
Does it make a difference if they're HW or LW? It's only giving me the HW option when I put in the mA number...... Also what sort of connection do I want, wires I guess? It will be easiest to work with, considering I really don't want to be soldering things?



jeffkrol said:


> Open frame power supplies are adj slightly.. so best to raise voltage.
> 21.6 ~ 28.8V
> Another advantage of them over the enclosed "brick" type.


So it would be something like this one? LRS Mean Well Enclosed Switching Power Supplies

It's 75 watts and 24 volts, would that work? I could also go for 75 watts and 36 volts if that would make anything better.....?

And those three things would be all I need, in theory, for a functioning light? They do also sell heat sinks and tracks on that site but that's a whole new thing I have no idea how to figure out lol. I'm hoping to keep it as simple as possible while still working.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Well I did say "not as" important but cri still has value.
I'd try to stick with 90 + for any k temp though.
At 4000k it starts to get more important.
But, again, you will be blending 2 color temps so it gets err.. unpredictable.
Err on the side of caution so to speak.
Some low cri warm leds can be sort of awful colored.I don't expect that from Bridgelux though.

As long as you meet the voltage requirements of the strips more voltage makes no difference.

To be honest heat sinking is an art and science. No way to really figure it out without testing on live systems.
I'm going on manuf data that they are fairly "heat resistant".

Yes a steady power supply, driver, constant current strip is all that is necessary.

Wattage depends on strip or how many..
Back a bit to voltage..
Say you have this:

Voltage - Forward (Vf) (Typ)19.5V

So a 24V power supply is fine..19.5+ 3-4v
Now if you wanted to use 1 driver but had 2 strips (in series =..minus..+..minus) you would need a 48V power supply.

There are only a few simple rules needed,


> Watts = volts x amps
> Current divides in parallel
> Voltage adds in series.
> V(f) and current are related, higher the current, higher the voltage needed across the strip
> ...


Technically if you had a power supply that fed EXACTLY 19.5V even a driver is unnecessary BUT since diodes change electrical specs with heating it is very poor practice.
All those cheap constant voltage strips use resistors as "drivers" so to speak to limit voltage/current.

What encouraged me to build my own lights was the simplicity of it all though it can get a bit complex.

for fun..








Or




__





Rafeed - Articles - Color Rendering Index - CRI


'The First Arabic Brand in Middle East' putting all lighting product under one Brand.. one technology wich is LED, supplies high quality led lighting solution, that is lighting is one of the most powerful interior design tools




atclighting.co


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

So regardless of the plants do you like more warm or cool look to your tank?
Plants will suck up most any visible light photons.
If you were doing "programming" the low k and high k choices make sense to emulate sunrise ect.
If doing just on/off I would forgo the "arguably for plants" better low k spectrum for a high k high cri strip.
"Yellow" gets a bad rap in fw tanks in general (short of blackwater aquariums).
But it is a personal preference.
Price difference is $3.50 US

BTW the "2000" means the same efficiency (at nominal drive current) as the one I posted and the one you picked.
difference is in k temp and cri. Of course real lumens is based on drive current:

*BXEB-L0560Z-30E2000-C-B3
BXEB-L0560Z-50S2000-C-C3*










6500K vs 2700K; what does the kelvin number actually mean?


A deeper discourse on the Kelvin (k) rating, its applications and its impact on planted aquariums.




www.2hraquarist.com




Good read .. note the low k tank is heavily supplemented in red.
Believe the second pic in the "series" is mis-labelled though. Should be like 6500k-ish


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> So regardless of the plants do you like more warm or cool look to your tank?
> Plants will suck up most any visible light photons.
> If you were doing "programming" the low k and high k choices make sense to emulate sunrise ect.
> If doing just on/off I would forgo the "arguably for plants" better low k spectrum for a high k high cri strip.
> ...


Woah those articles were super informative!! I feel like I understand light like a hundred times better now, thanks.

Really interesting how good those cards for the 3500K and the mixture of 2700 and 4000K look compared to the 5000K....... Like heaven and earth type difference.

I don't really mind if my tank light runs a little warmer or not, my current light is not unappealing to my eyes, but a little warmer maybe would be nicer.... I'm really primarily focused on helping the plants though, because I have many struggling who shouldn't be struggling necessarily in a low tech tank so I want to see if more light will help them at all.

I totally don't care about sunrise and sunset and such.

Ok so if we do want higher CRI, and heck why not, wouldn't we want this one? *BXEB-L0560Z-30S2000-C-C3*
I'm only doing one strip so I keep the 24V power supply, the one I linked? And I keep the driver I linked, with wire connections? And I will be able to somehow put this all together?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Really interesting how good those cards for the 3500K and the mixture of 2700 and 4000K look compared to the 5000K....... Like heaven and earth type difference.
> 
> I don't really mind if my tank light runs a little warmer or not, my current light is not unappealing to my eyes, but a little warmer maybe would be nicer.... I'm really primarily focused on helping the plants
> 
> ...


Lol . First that 5000k looks like the " worst case" CRI like 70 or less .

So getting back to your strip and not caring about dimming I'm
going to through you a curve ball here.



> MEAN WELL APC Series 8~35W Constant Current LED Drivers
> Wattage : 25W (+$5.79)
> Output Current : 1050mA


All in one driver and power supply
1050mA, 9-24v dc.
$11.49 US .
APC25-1050




__





Mean Well APC LED Drivers






www.ledsupply.com




Plus this
BXEB-L0560Z-30S2000-C-C3
At 1050mA you are probably at 23 watts

Just need a plug and some wire and wire nuts or a set of these:









Amazon.com: 10pcs Male & 10pcs Female DC Power Jack Adapter Connector Plug : Electronics


Amazon.com: 10pcs Male & 10pcs Female DC Power Jack Adapter Connector Plug : Electronics



www.amazon.com


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Lol . First that 5000k looks like the " worst case" CRI like 70 or less .
> 
> So getting back to your strip and not caring about dimming I'm
> going to through you a curve ball here.
> ...


Oh my gosh well that’s genius!!!! It’s weird, from reading that product description I’d never understand that’s also a power supply hahah!

Ok this is getting better and better!!! Wire connectors are easy. Do I have to worry about wire type/material/gauge etc?

From the picture it looks like the driver only has 2 wires so I need a 2 prong plug, right? Not the 3 prong one with ground? 

What would be the best way to attach the strip to my canopy? I have a few McGuyver ideas but if there’s an elegant one I’m open to it.

This is SO EXCITING lol


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Oh my gosh well that’s genius!!!! It’s weird, from reading that product description I’d never understand that’s also a power supply hahah!
> 
> Ok this is getting better and better!!! Wire connectors are easy. Do I have to worry about wire type/material/gauge etc?
> 
> ...


Plug doesn't matter, you just have no green ( ground) wire to attach to it.

Can't say how to attach it but I wouldn't rule out small nuts and bolts,

As to wire, not much of a concern. Only running 1A through it
Picking wire guage depends on power and the distance from the power supply to light strip.
With the push connectors on the strip I do advise solid not stranded wire. I' ve had problems w/ stranded wire w/ that type of connector.
Problem is solid isn't as flexible so sort of a pia.
22-16 guage for a 2-4 meters (to and back length) is probably fine.
2 conductor " thermostat" wire is easy to get.


From power supply to plug if you extend it 16-14 guage stranded is fine.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

Whoh. I thnk you guys might be making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. I've built a bunch of these over the years.

First thing you should look at before going down this rabbit hole is your led driver inside your current unit. You should be able to integrate the strip(s) into your existing light.

I have actually had much better results with meanwell's LPC driver line. Especially if it will be going around water. When I build these smaller two strip arrays from scratch I use these. 





__





LPC-60-1050 MEAN WELL USA Inc. | Power Supplies - External/Internal (Off-Board) | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. LPC-60-1050 – 1.05A 9 ~ 48V Constant Current LED Driver AC DC Converter Topology 1 Output from MEAN WELL USA Inc.. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.com





But your existing driver might be able to run two low-power strips with a few small tweaks.

I have arrays using the older units and some with the newer thrive units. The newer thrive units have a far broader spectrum, under 400nm and over 660nm. If you are trying to improve your plant anthocyanin production, you might want to consider your lower energy wavelengths.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

RadOtter said:


> First thing you should look at before going down this rabbit hole is your led driver inside your current unit. You should be able to integrate the strip(s) into your existing light.


Chances are it's just a simple 12 or 24 power supply running a constant voltage strip.
Then you would need a dc/dc driver @$5-7
And then you couldn't use 2 timers for seperate "channels".
Doubt if the power supply is more than 2a or it lives up to it's rating.

Good idea but there are downsides.
Your meanwell alternate certainly is fine at almost 2x the cost.
Good thing is @ 20w (one bridgelux) less stress than the one I recommended.

Actually looking at the picture the current ps is 12v...so unusable for the Bridgelux.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Whoh. I thnk you guys might be making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be. I've built a bunch of these over the years.
> 
> First thing you should look at before going down this rabbit hole is your led driver inside your current unit. You should be able to integrate the strip(s) into your existing light.
> 
> ...


Everyone here keeps forgetting I'm dumb lol.

Opening up my current unit sounds a little stressful, and also as I don't want to mess with making dimmers/ programming/ whatever and I probably won't want to run both lights during the whole photo period, having two separate lights might be in fact easier. Also if I mess something up (a definite possibility) I've wrecked one potential light and not my current light as well. I'm imagining the new light as a separate unit I only turn on for 2-3 hours a day to give the plants a boost?

I'm definitely not doing any 'small tweaks' on drivers lol, have no idea where I would start with that.

When you say older and newer units do you mean Gen 2 vs Gen 3? I think I will go with the Gen 3 Thrive light finally... Might as well get all them good bandwidths 

For the drivers..... did you use this one and have trouble with it, @RadOtter? Mean Well APC LED Drivers I'd hate to get something and then find out it doesn't work.... But it seems super tempting to have the driver and power supply in one same simple thing.... It will not be exposed to water directly as the light sits on top of my tank top but there is definitely moisture around I guess. The thing you linked is also a driver AND power supply in one, right? 

Do you have maybe some photos of your setups sort of showing how things are put together? It would help me visualize what I need to do I guess.... 

Wish I knew enough about this stuff to actually have an informed opinion hahah.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Both drivers listed are fine.
Your head is making it more complicated than necessary.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Both drivers listed are fine.
> Your head is making it more complicated than necessary.


I fully believe this hahah. But when you have no experience everything feels like you might ruin it all. 

I'll just order the stuff and see what happens. If I get stuck I'll come crying to you guys again lol.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

If you are just trying to power a single strip, the APC drivers are perfectly fine. I have had a few running for individual supplemental diodes for over a year with no issues.

Essentially what you are building is exactly what is inside of your current light, just with more efficient specs.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Essentially what you are building is exactly what is inside of your current light, just with more efficient specs.


I’m feeling exceptionally cool about this project. And mildly bewildered lol. But mostly cool.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Do you have maybe some photos of your setups sort of showing how things are put together? It would help me visualize what I need to do


Here are a few different example setups I'm actively using them in.








Inside of grow shelves, mounted to thin aluminum flatbar. @1.4amps








Part of a main bench array, all underpowered at <1amp to preserve the spectrum. Mounted to heatsinks. (unnecessarily)








From the top. This array is overly complicated because it has has supplimental diodes for UVA/B and excess low energy bands to simulate sunrise and sunset.








Lol and I also mount them to wood inside of terrariums at 90% humidity. So anecdotally water shouldn't be a problem.
Not sure if this helps, but it's 3 of the many different ways to set them up.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Here are a few different example setups I'm actively using them in.
> View attachment 1044053
> 
> Inside of grow shelves, mounted to thin aluminum flatbar. @1.4amps
> ...


Hugely helps!!! So cool! 

So would you say I’d need to attach the strip to something, like a flat aluminum bar or something? Or is it firm enough to hold itself straight if I just make little loops for it on the plastic casing I already have?

Well I ordered the stuff!!! 🤩

It was 51$ all together with tax and shipping for the light strip, driver and cable with plug. Which means I save like 10$ over getting a proper Nicrew Skywhatever light lol. But I guess the experience will be priceless ♥

I’m also glad I’ll be able to slip this in next to my existing light... 

Ok so I’m pretty sure I’ll have more questions when it arrives, bear with me please ⭐


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Well I ordered the stuff!!! 🤩
> 
> It was 51$ all together with tax and shipping for the light strip, driver and cable with plug. Which means I save like 10$ over getting a proper Nicrew Skywhatever light lol. But I guess the experience will be priceless ♥
> 
> ...


$51 😳😳😳 That seems crazy high for a single strip. What exactly did you order? Can you send links? Also as for the cable/plug, your local hardware store sells them for a few dollars.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> $51 😳😳😳 That seems crazy high for a single strip. What exactly did you order? Can you send links? Also as for the cable/plug, your local hardware store sells them for a few dollars.


Well the plug was like 4$... 16$ for the light strip we picked, the 3rd gen thrive one... 16$ for the driver power source combo, and 8$ for shipping, and something for taxes..... I dunno. The 2nd gen strip was twice cheaper I think but I figured might as well get those nice frequencies.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Canadian or US $'s?


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Canadian or US $'s?


Canadian 😂 But the Nicrew we had settled on is like 58$ Canadian with free shipping from uncle Jeff.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Canadian or US $'s?


 Thanks. I forgot. (Although I half expected their dollar to be equal or more these days)


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Thanks. I forgot. (Although I half expected their dollar to be equal or more these days)


Nah we’re always behind you guys 😔


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> Well the plug was like 4$... 16$ for the light strip we picked, the 3rd gen thrive one... 16$ for the driver power source combo, and 8$ for shipping, and something for taxes..... I dunno. The 2nd gen strip was twice cheaper I think but I figured might as well get those nice frequencies.
> 
> View attachment 1044082


Yeah, that should get it done. I usually recommend looking for a cc driver with a higher voltage range like 11-40v. That way in the future if you think you need more you can just add another strip without any additional costs. But the other hot tip is that if you feel you need more light, you can drive those strips up to 1.4A and practically double your ppfd.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

RadOtter said:


> Yeah, that should get it done. I usually recommend looking for a cc driver with a higher voltage range like 11-40v. That way in the future if you think you need more you can just add another strip without any additional costs. But the other hot tip is that if you feel you need more light, you can drive those strips up to 1.4A and practically double your ppfd.


I can do _what_ now?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> I can do _what_ now?


Follow the chart ..







.
2470 lumens at 960mA i.e . the 100% point.
2717 lumens at 1050mA (110% approx.)
140% at 1400mA. 3458 lumens.

11698 lux, 223 "par" at the water surface.
All rough estimates..plus your existing strip of course.
283 @1400mA.

Should hit 20-30 "par" at the substrate with that strip.








How to read PAR tables


The PAR Measure (Photosynthetically Active Radiation) is the most useful gauge of a light's relevant 'strength' for plant growth. Knowing how to read PAR table helps aquarist buy lights with the right efficacy for their planted tanks. Read on to find out more.




www.2hraquarist.com


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Follow the chart ..
> View attachment 1044090
> .
> 2470 lumens at 960mA i.e . the 100% point.
> ...


Hmmmmm super interesting! So you can literally overclock it to make it make more light? Does this damage it longterm/makes it burn out quicker or something? What would I physically have to do during assembly to make it do that, and do I even want to?

If I have my current 1260 lumens light and the new one that’s double that... where will my substrate PAR be? Is your calculation of 20-30 par at substrate for just the new light or both together? Overclocked or running normally at 100%? Did you notice how I overthink _everything_? 😂


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

Overthinking is better than underthinking. JeffKrol is on top of it. So not double, 140%. It's similar to over clocking, but not quite. So when they make these diodes they establish the 100% flux based on optimal case temperature and the best possible energy efficiency. The diodes can handle quite a bit of power, but if you exceed optimal temperature on a regular basis you can decrease the lifespan of the diodes. However, if you're really thinking about only turning it on for a few hours a day, this becomes a null point. I don't know the strip lifespan off the top of my head. Anecdotally though, I've had 4 strips running for 18 hours every day at 1.4A for 3 years and have only seen a 2.3% decrease in flux.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Calculation was just for the one strip at 1050mA.

First part uses this:





Lumens to lux (lx) conversion calculator


Lumens (lm) to lux (lx) conversion calculator and how to calculate.




www.rapidtables.com





Assumption is all " lumens" fall into 2.5 sq feet ( surface area of tank 30x12/144)
Then use this:





Convert Lux to PPFD - Online Calculator | Waveform Lighting


Online calculator to convert illuminance (lux) to PPFD (micromoles per second per meter squared).



www.waveformlighting.com




And 3000 k high cri led

If you want to use the term "overclocking" then I suppose anything over the manuf mA 's over 100% flux is it.

Notice a decrease in efficiency ( meaning more heat ) as one " overclocks" it. 
At 500mA your at 60% of output flux
At 1000mA ( if linear) it should be 120% of flux but it's about 110%
At 1500 it should be 180% but it's 150%.
The "lost" 30% is likely heat.

Overall though diode output just changes over changing applied current and temp differences and if course manufacture.

There is no set output except by manuf " opinions"

If you wanted to an
LCM-60U would have given you the option of 1400mA.
At 3x the cost of what you bought as a driver.
A "deep driver search" may gave found alternates but time consuming for possible limited " value".
Quality ect.


One of the advantages of seperate power supply and driver ( ac/dc plus ldd)
is in the ability to only spend like $7 to "upgrade". Of course the power supply would need to be rated for it
I.e 50 watts vs 25 watts.

What you picked should triple your current output at minimal cost and complexity.
You backed out of the 4000 lumen strip.. 

RadOtter I was typing this as you posted.
So some duplication.
Thanks for the real world estimate of loss.

Of course you have some heat sinking and not encumbered by a hood ( As I understand it) so there is that

1400mA was probably doable but one just can just run the light longer. 

In my defense higher output was offered using ldds or 4000 flux strips.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Calculation was just for the one strip at 1050mA.
> 
> First part uses this:
> 
> ...


lol no defense needed, you are absolutely my hero!!!! 💚 You have both guided me with such patience through a process that seemed nigh impossible to me at the start. I'm madly grateful to both of you.

I honestly think that as a first step towards better light, tripling my current light output should be well enough. Once we see how the plants respond and how it all goes it won't be hard now to start using all this info you guys have given me to branch out, put together stronger things, go for the 4000 flux, overclock, or whatever..... I feel like overall we still chose the wisest option to start with! I mean after all this is still a low tech tank, I don't think blasting it with 200 ppfd at substrate would do it any favors hahah.


----------



## RadOtter (10 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Calculation was just for the one strip at 1050mA.
> 
> First part uses this:
> 
> ...



Well stated. Not duplication at all. Much more of a thorough and accurate explanation. 

I am ignorant to the separate pwrsupply/driver setups. That's way over my head. I usually use the hybrid cc/cv meanwell hlg drivers that allow you to power a broad range of strips through clever parallel/series wiring configurations. The reason I originally suggested the LPC series is due to the wider voltage range so they can power anywhere from 1-4 strips depending on wiring configuration. 

Good point as well the strips I run at 1400mA are on shelves thermal taped to aluminum flatbar, so there is some heatsinking involved. My large array I keep at mfg suggested or below, for no reason other than it took forever to build and I dont want to redo it anytime soon. 😅


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I feel like I might definitely branch out into parallel wiring etc if this works out...... but I always find baby steps best to start with. Wondering if it's worth it to pick up an aluminum flat bar to attach the strip to.... that also means buying thermal tape I guess.... and finding a way to cut the bar as the shortest one they sell near me is 90cm. Hmmm. I should have been a mechanic's daughter, I swear. Then we'd have all this shop stuff in the house.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

OK IT HAS ARRIVED 

so we had a bit of a rocky road with this order, it got randomly canceled and I had to reorder.... I had already resigned myself to it not coming before I leave on Tuesday (I’m flying home for 5 weeks, my poor tanks will be left in husband’s dubious care) but it showed up literally the next day, which felt pretty crazy. 

Now the part I get is - I need to attach the light to the driver, and the driver to the cable with the plug. 

The part I don’t get is - everything else. 

1. There are two sides to the light, one marked ‘LED 1’ and the other marked ‘LED 112’. Does it matter which side I attach the driver to?
2. There are these two little white thingies on the light strip where you’re meant to insert the wires I think- is it just push wire in to insert? No other attaching mechanism?
3. The driver has two wires on each side - blue and brown on the ‘AC IN’ side, and red and black on ‘DC OUT’ side. I’m assuming light goes on the AC IN side and the cord and plug go on the DC OUT side.... but which wire goes with what? Light is marked with + and - but driver is not. Is there a convention of blue and brown corresponding with + and -? 
4. On the DC side does it matter which wire attaches to which wire of the plug? The plug wires are both the same.... 
5. I don’t see anything I can set or adjust on the driver... will it automatically know what current to put out?
6. I got two types of wire connectors, do they look like the right kind? I’m not sure how to read the gauge of wire they take nor what gauge are the wires I have on all this stuff.... 
7. Am I missing anything that will cause some electrical havoc in my house once I plug in this monstrosity? 

Many thanks in advance for saving my life yet again lol ⭐


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> 3. The driver has two wires on each side - blue and brown on the ‘AC IN’ side, and red and black on ‘DC OUT’ side. I’m assuming light goes on the AC IN side and the cord and plug go on the DC OUT side....


I don't think this is right. The plugs usually go on the AC in side. You'd probably fry the driver wiring this way. Others more knowledgeable than me should confirm please, but don't wire it this way until you get feedback.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

EEK!!!!!

Blue/Brown... Common/hot to AC side.

Black/Red negative/ plus to the led strip.

Driver will adjust current.. no interactions are necessary.

Your wall outlet will look something like this.
Pretty sure it doesn't t matter but you " should" wire the brown wire to the cord so the right blade goes in the right way. Which us the narrower ," hot" hole .
Normally the plug would have a wide and narrow blade to match.
Don' t worry about the ground(round) hole.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Blue/Brown... Common/hot to AC side.
> 
> Black/Red negative/ plus to the led strip.
> 
> Driver will adjust current.. no interactions are necessary.


So glad I have you guys 🤩

Ok so on the light side, black goes into the negative side and red goes into the positive side.

On the plug side they go however? The plug prongs are both the same. Should I look for a plug where the two prongs are NOT the same? And then I attach the brown wire where the smaller prong is?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

You want the wago in line 221 if you want to use wago.
Wago 221 Inline - The through connection of installation lines

Not familiar w/ what you are showing me but " looks" err wrong.
You can always pick up some wire nuts.

Some may have issues with this video .


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Your wall outlet will look something like this.
> Pretty sure it doesn't t matter but you " should" wire the brown wire to the cord so the right blade goes in the right way. Which us the narrower ," hot" hole .
> Normally the plug would have a wide and narrow blade to match.
> Don' t worry about the ground(round) hole.


Your photo isn’t showing. My plug looks like this










jeffkrol said:


> You want the wago in line 221 if you want to use wago.
> Wago 221 Inline - The through connection of installation lines
> 
> Not familiar w/ what you are showing me but " looks" err wrong.
> You can always pick up some wire nuts.


omg those inline ones are so cool!! Mine (the orange ones) are also Wago 221, they’re just butt splice instead of inline. Otherwise I think they’re literally the same thing.

If there’s any worry about them I can go get plain wire nuts.

Which side of the light do I attach to?
















Also what are the circled spots, is that where you’d solder the wire if you were soldering? I don’t have to do anything with it?


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> 4. On the DC side does it matter which wire attaches to which wire of the plug? The plug wires are both the same....


I probably shouldn't be replying in addition to @jeffkrol, but I'd prefer if you didn't hurt yourself. 

DO NOT attach the plug directly to the light. The DC out of the drive should attach to the light. Positive (+) to the red wire, negative (-) to the black wire. Those silver circles look like solder points. You can attach the driver to the clip on receptacles instead.

Also, wago or wire nut, I recommend wrapping the connections with a healthy dose of electrical tape.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

No no soldering. You can attach your red/ black driver wires in either push connect.
Closest to the end is best suspect.

Guess you can use the connectors, for ONE leg. Sorry just not familiar with them.


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> 1. There are two sides to the light, one marked ‘LED 1’ and the other marked ‘LED 112’. Does it matter which side I attach the driver to?


This looks like the LED light number, you probably have 112 LEDs on that strip. You can attach the DC out +/- terminals on either end. They're on both sides so it's easier to daisy chain multiple strips.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

NanoNoodle said:


> I probably shouldn't be replying in addition to @jeffkrol, but I'd prefer if you didn't hurt yourself.
> 
> DO NOT attach the plug directly to the light. The DC out of the drive should attach to the light. Positive (+) to the red wire, negative (-) to the black wire. Those silver circles look like solder points. You can attach the driver to the clip on receptacles instead.
> 
> Also, wago or wire nut, I recommend wrapping the connections with a healthy dose of electrical tape.


I would also prefer to not hurt myself!! ♥ I’m not attaching the light to the cord, light goes to driver (red and black wires) and blue and brown wires of driver go to the plug.

Still unclear- 

- when you say electrical tape I’m guessing it’s not just duct tape? Gotta get some special kind of tape?

- is there any way to read the gauge of my wire? Because I need to strip a little extra 

- so I can attach the light from either side? It doesn’t care?



jeffkrol said:


> No no soldering. You can attach your red/ black driver wires in either push connect.
> Closest to the end is best suspect.
> 
> Guess you can use the connectors, for ONE leg. Sorry just not familiar with them.


Yeah I’m googling these connectors and they seem interchangeable with wire nuts... should be ok...

How do you mean ‘for one leg’? 

So push connects on the light are literally just push the wire in? No need to cover that with anything, like electrical tape?

‘Closest to the end’ meaning where it says ‘led 112’ and not ‘led 1’, where the soldering points are?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Yeah I’m googling these connectors and they seem interchangeable with wire nuts... should be ok...
> 
> How do you mean ‘for one leg’?
> 
> ...


Meant like brown to one wire.. don't swat it, I think you understand how to use them.

Yes just push in the wire.. Now did you get stranded or solid copper wire?
I've had issues w/ stranded wires.

Pick whichever connector fits your design plan.. 
If the ends are stripped to the the right size no "bare wire" will show if installed correctly.

See pg 11+ for fancy ways.. 


https://bridgelux.com/sites/default/files/resource_media/AN130%20-%20Design%20Guide%20for%20Bridgelux%20Modules%20-%20Release%20V1%20-%2020200529.pdf



Actually go to pg 26


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> - when you say electrical tape I’m guessing it’s not just duct tape? Gotta get some special kind of tape?
> 
> - is there any way to read the gauge of my wire? Because I need to strip a little extra
> 
> - so I can attach the light from either side? It doesn’t care?


Electrical tape is different, but duct tape would probably work too. This light is going to be around water. I thought it would be good to protect the connection points from splashes.

Sometimes the wire has it written on it (e.g. 16 AWG for 16 gauge). Your plug wire is likely 16 or 18 awg and your driver wires look like 22 awg stranded. Give them a good twist to avoid loose strands and attach them using your wago connector. Optionally wrap the entire thing with tape.

I don't think it cares which end you use on the light strip.


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wire guage normally had nothing to do w/ stripped length. There could be exceptions I' m not aware of.

Gauge would matter in choosing wire nuts.All on the package.

Driver specs may list wire gauge attached to the driver.

Lists 18ga...


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> Wire guage normally had nothing to do w/ stripped length. There could be exceptions I' m not aware of.
> 
> Gauge would matter in choosing wire nuts.All on the package.
> 
> ...


Yap that’s what I was wondering... I attached the driver quite easily:









That should be correct? But the wires are so short I’m not sure where to put the driver now... my idea was to tape it to the top of the plastic thing that holds the lights, but it seems to me that the wires won’t let it reach... 

Also the Wagos won’t work because the wires are stranded. The very tips are tinned, but I had to strip a little more because the Wagos need 11mm/ 13mm inserted respectively, and there seems to be no way to get the stranded wire to go in without tinning it again and I definitely don’t have the option to do that. 

@NanoNoodle was right, gauge is written on the wires... driver wires are 18. If I decided to get some solid core wire to connect the light with the driver while giving it enough room to put the driver where I need it to be, would I just get any coated solid core 18 gauge wire? 

Anyway so I’ll probably get normal wire nuts, how do you protect those, just wrap in duct tape? I saw people using little plastic boxes to lock in the connections, what are those called? Should I bother?


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

I thought the plan was to run the driver "remotely".. i.e a large extension wire.. I had suggested solid core 2 conductor bell wire . 18-22ga..





30-00689 Tensility International Corp | Cables, Wires | DigiKey


Order today, ships today. 30-00689 – 2 Conductor Multi-Conductor Cable Black 22 AWG 3.28' (1.00m) from Tensility International Corp. Pricing and Availability on millions of electronic components from Digi-Key Electronics.




www.digikey.com





lowest recommended guage and depends on distance..

You can use speaker wire ect but you need to hold the quick connect open when inserting stranded wire. In the data sheet.


----------



## NanoNoodle (9 mo ago)

LidijaPN said:


> If I decided to get some solid core wire to connect the light with the driver while giving it enough room to put the driver where I need it to be, would I just get any coated solid core 18 gauge wire?
> 
> Anyway so I’ll probably get normal wire nuts, how do you protect those, just wrap in duct tape? I saw people using little plastic boxes to lock in the connections, what are those called? Should I bother?


I don't think you need solid core wire. They're not very flexible. I'd just get 18 awg stranded to extend those wires. While you're getting supplies, grab some electrical tape. Wrap the wire nuts with electrical tape to keep water/humidity out.

I think electrical tape would protect those connections as much as plastic boxes.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

jeffkrol said:


> I thought the plan was to run the driver "remotely".. i.e a large extension wire.. I had suggested solid core 2 conductor bell wire . 18-22ga..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes this looks absolutely perfect!! I think it is a good idea to have the driver further away than to have it somehow taped onto the tank lid itself. Would 22 gauge be enough? Would 18 gauge be in any way better? Is it ok to mix wire gauges, since the driver already has 18 gauge should I get 18 gauge for the extension too?

I’ll look for this tomorrow, must be available locally too.... I’m sure you did mention it before I just wasn’t parsing all the information hahah.



jeffkrol said:


> You can use speaker wire ect but you need to hold the quick connect open when inserting stranded wire. In the data sheet.


Yeah I saw that, that data sheet is amazing! My issue with stranded is I can’t get it into the connectors... but I’ll solve that by just getting some nuts.



jeffkrol said:


> I thought the plan was to run the driver "remotely".. i.e a large extension wire.. I had suggested solid core 2 conductor bell wire . 18-22ga..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ordered that wire, you’re sure it’s enough? I mean it can carry enough power? Hope they do the magic trick of delivering overnight again so I can assemble everything before I go!


----------



## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

LidijaPN said:


> Ordered that wire, you’re sure it’s enough? I mean it can carry enough power? Hope they do the magic trick of delivering overnight again so I can assemble everything before I go!


It was supposed to be an example only .
I didn't notice it is 17 strand tinned ends 1 m long
Not worried about the power draw but not " exactly" what I had in mind . Search term included " solid" so not sure why that showed up.

Sorry..
Most hardware stores will have bell wire sold by the foot..

You need to figure out how much distance you need for where you want to put the driver.



> The maximum amperage for a 22-gauge wire is .92 amps for power transmission, according to the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge.


Their estimates are VERY conservative.

24v ,1.1A, 3.3ft one way, 640 circular mils,
.6% voltage drop..
Works fine








DC Wire Size Calculator


Use our DC Wire Size Calculator to know the wire size needed for your DC electric application.




www.omnicalculator.com




.


----------



## LidijaPN (12 mo ago)

I’ll go see what I can find locally tomorrow...


----------

