# Substrate for Low-Tech



## dundee

In my opinion, the best method for low tech is the Walstad method. Top soil or potting mix covered with gravel. No ferts, no CO2, low/medium light, maybe a little sunlight. Low maintenance. Search for Diana Walstad for more info.


----------



## jcgd

It depends what your looking for. If you want a source of ferts you can use the Walstad method, ADA Aquasoil, mineralized topsoil, red sea flora base, etc., etc. 

If you want high CEC you can use fluorite, Eco complete, turface, oil dry, Shultz aquatic plant soil, kitty little, etc., etc. 

If you don't have much cash to spend you could use gravel, pool filter sand, play sand, black beauty sandblasting media, etc. , etc. 

It all depends on what you are looking for in a substrate. All have different pros and cons and all work. It depends on how you will or won't be dosing and wether you want to refresh the substrate once depleted and if you want to replace the substrate after 1+ years.


----------



## green_valley

jcgd said:


> It depends what your looking for. If you want a source of ferts you can use the Walstad method, ADA Aquasoil, mineralized topsoil, red sea flora base, etc., etc.
> 
> If you want high CEC you can use fluorite, Eco complete, turface, oil dry, Shultz aquatic plant soil, kitty little, etc., etc.
> 
> If you don't have much cash to spend you could use gravel, pool filter sand, play sand, black beauty sandblasting media, etc. , etc.
> 
> It all depends on what you are looking for in a substrate. All have different pros and cons and all work. It depends on how you will or won't be dosing and wether you want to refresh the substrate once depleted and if you want to replace the substrate after 1+ years.


Thank you JCGD. I was thinking about Eco complete from Petco. What's CEC btw? sorry I am newbie.


----------



## madness

green_valley said:


> Thank you JCGD. I was thinking about Eco complete from Petco. What's CEC btw? sorry I am newbie.


'Cation Exchange Capability'

It refers to the ability of the substrate to store minerals and other nutrients and make them available to the plant roots. Things like Flourite, Eco-complete, kitty litter, clay based substrates are all valued for this capability.

Something with high CEC is likely to be used to 'store' nutrients rather than as a source of nutrients.

Things like Aquasoil, mineralized top soil, potting soil, etc. are sources of nutrients.

Things like play sand and aquarium gravel are inert and do neither - they are not high CEC and they don't have nutrients built in.


----------



## madness

green_valley said:


> Thank you JCGD. I was thinking about Eco complete from Petco. What's CEC btw? sorry I am newbie.


I have Eco-Complete in several tanks. The primary benefits of the Eco-Complete are that it is high CEC, it has a grain size that works well for plants (it doesn't compact like sand so it is better for roots to grow in and better in theory for bacteria colonization) and that the grains/pebbles/whatever of the Eco-Complete are more rounded and assumed to be safer for the health of bottom dwelling fish - especially those with barbels like catfish and loaches.

The drawback to using Eco-Complete by itself is that it isn't sufficiently nutrient rich. People debate whether it has useable nutrients in it (it claims that it does) but it definitely does not have the large nutrient source that something like Aquasoil does. Top soil and potting mix obviously are very nutrient rich as well.

If you want a heavily planted tank (especially with some harder to grow plants) and don't want to have to heavily dose fertilizers in the water then I would reccomend having a nutrient rich substrate. 

Summary: there is nothing wrong with Eco-Complete and many people really like it but it may not provide everything that you are looking for in a substrate package. This depends upon your needs and what you plan to do with your tank.


----------



## green_valley

madness said:


> I have Eco-Complete in several tanks. The primary benefits of the Eco-Complete are that it is high CEC, it has a grain size that works well for plants (it doesn't compact like sand so it is better for roots to grow in and better in theory for bacteria colonization) and that the grains/pebbles/whatever of the Eco-Complete are more rounded and assumed to be safer for the health of bottom dwelling fish - especially those with barbels like catfish and loaches.
> 
> The drawback to using Eco-Complete by itself is that it isn't sufficiently nutrient rich. People debate whether it has useable nutrients in it (it claims that it does) but it definitely does not have the large nutrient source that something like Aquasoil does. Top soil and potting mix obviously are very nutrient rich as well.
> 
> If you want a heavily planted tank (especially with some harder to grow plants) and don't want to have to heavily dose fertilizers in the water then I would reccomend having a nutrient rich substrate.
> 
> Summary: there is nothing wrong with Eco-Complete and many people really like it but it may not provide everything that you are looking for in a substrate package. This depends upon your needs and what you plan to do with your tank.


Thank you so much Madness. I appreciate the information. So if Eco -Complete stores nutrient, can they get the nutrient from fish poo? At this point, I am just looking at carpeting low-tech plants, which include Dwarf Hairgrass, Dwarf sags, moss, etc. Thank you again.


----------



## jcgd

green_valley said:


> Thank you so much Madness. I appreciate the information. So if Eco -Complete stores nutrient, can they get the nutrient from fish poo? At this point, I am just looking at carpeting low-tech plants, which include Dwarf Hairgrass, Dwarf sags, moss, etc. Thank you again.


It can... the Eco will pull nutrients from the water column (mostly) as they become available. Generally, the older it gets the better. If you want to can always add some root tabs at first or even charge it in a nutrient rich water solution. At the same time if the plants pull more nutrients than are available, the substrate will become the source and be depleted. It goes both ways or the CEC would be moot.

I like the high CEC gravels because they are usually a bit cheaper and are a little heavier, so easier to plant. If you uproot a lot that can be nice. I like the granular soils like Aqua Soil if I wont be moving things around. I find it lighter and can cloud the water for a bit.


----------



## wkndracer

being new to planted tanks EcoComp is a great starter substrate and as mentioned simply by adding root tab ferts to the base (most last about 3 months) and light dosing of the water column you will enjoy the tank more as you learn rather than fighting with the tank. Eco can be used later if you chose to add a rich base for the plants as a capping material so nothing lost.


----------



## lauraleellbp

green_valley said:


> Thank you so much Madness. I appreciate the information. So if Eco -Complete stores nutrient, can they get the nutrient from fish poo? At this point, I am just looking at carpeting low-tech plants, which include Dwarf Hairgrass, Dwarf sags, moss, etc. Thank you again.


Hairgrass can carpet in low light, but generally does need CO2 to do well- plus needs to be "mowed" on a regular basis to encourage it to spread; same way the grass in your lawn works.

Mosses, Dwarf Sag, other dwarf chain swords (Helanthium sp, formerly Echinodorus), Lilaeopsis mauritiana, and Marselia minuta are the species I've had carpet best for me in low light without CO2.

Flourite black is my own personal favorite of the commercially available substrates to date. The fired clays are all pretty much the same, though.


----------



## forddna

When soil "goes bad" over time, what actually is wrong with it?


----------



## Hilde

Here is what Tuffgong found at a dollar store.


----------



## wkndracer

forddna said:


> When soil "goes bad" over time, what actually is wrong with it?


In the terms I would relate to your question going bad over time would be not supplying enough nutrients for the plants, that would be my take on it. 
But how to determine if this is the case?

A tank that for months or years that has been steadily producing stable growth and good healthy plants then having a shift in conditions. Plants failing, growth stalling, older leaves becoming riddled with holes, losing color or algae starting to attach to plants is a sign of weakness and deficiencies. 

Running a tank long term in a steady routine that works and then problems arise I would look first at my energy source. Are my lights in good shape or are the bulbs at the end of useful life? Changing the bulbs do things improve? If not then I would look to my primary nutrient source as the issue. To confirm this you could water column dose if you're not already or up that amount adding more on the established schedule. If things improve the substrate has been exhausted.

HTH


----------



## forddna

Meaning exhausted of what it was carrying by itself? So adding ferts to the substrate should "fix" the problem?


----------



## wkndracer

yes, you're post that I responded to had 'soil' in it and soil can be depleted. It just should take a long time to happen. NPT/MTS comparisons ignite firestorm threads with devote method followers raining blame on the user when longevity of a method is questioned and problems reported. MTS is reputed to be FAR superior to NPT by many and with the efforts involved in creating a substrate like that as apposed to simply throwing dirt in a tank I guess that's understandable. I saw a shift in growth on one of my NPT's after a little more than 2 years, nothing major just a reduction in growth rate and problems with the floaters. A devote follower of the Walstad method 'blamed' my not feeding my fish enough for the 'failure' of my system. I saw it as a shift not a failure and the debate lasted for about an entire page in the string LOL. The tank is still unchanged, no nutrient source was added or boosted, nothing added to the substrate of any kind. Growth has simply slowed down. The tank is again stable at the new growth rate and conditions are good, plants are healthy just slower growing and maybe a little smaller.

Following the process I listed above in the other post I found improvement in the tank conditions dosing the water column of a tank based with MTS. It had lots of plant problems starting with fast growers. Amazon swords were failing, Leaves were a mess and stunting.
Adding to the water column algae issues decreased and the condition of the plants improved. I added root tabs to the substrate and replace/update them now every 3 months. The tank looks great again.

HTH


----------



## GoldenTetra

I have a question about using top soil. Do you HAVE to go through the whole process of making it mineralized or is there a way to buy it already ready to go? We are lacking in the sun department over here this time of year, so it would take me FOREVER to actually soak and sun-bake the dirt once, imagine 3 - 4 times.


----------



## forddna

Ack, yes, sorry, I mean substrate in general. I use Eco Complete, but it is probably 4 years old now. I just keep seeing people talk about these nutrient enriched substrates going bad after X months/years. Was curious what that actually meant. Does it break down? Leak bad stuff? Or just lose its built-in nutrients?


----------



## forddna

Golden, you can buy MTS ready to go on here, if you want to use it.


----------



## lauraleellbp

GoldenTetra said:


> I have a question about using top soil. Do you HAVE to go through the whole process of making it mineralized or is there a way to buy it already ready to go? We are lacking in the sun department over here this time of year, so it would take me FOREVER to actually soak and sun-bake the dirt once, imagine 3 - 4 times.


You can buy a bag of Miracle Gro Oraganic soil and don't have to do anything other than cap it. That's how my own 90 and 46gals are set up.


----------



## wkndracer

forddna said:


> Ack, yes, sorry, I mean substrate in general. I use Eco Complete, but it is probably 4 years old now. I just keep seeing people talk about these nutrient enriched substrates going bad after X months/years. Was curious what that actually meant. Does it break down? Leak bad stuff? Or just lose its built-in nutrients?


It affects the cycle obviously because it will also strip the substrate of all bactera too but if your EcoComp gets to where it's filthy and you think that's an issues hehehe you can clean it and any other inert substrate too.
You need a 5g bucket and a weekend.
About $3.00 worth of 3% H2O2

Put the eco in the bucket with enough water to cover it and about 3-4" on top of that then pour in 3qts of H2O2 and stir the bucket with a broom handle or board, what ever. I even reach in to the elbow and roll the gravel by hand then rinse my arm.
Stir every 1/2 hour or so to mix things up and let it sit overnight and repeat then rinse really well like removing the dust from new Flourite.
H2O2 burns up much of the organic material clogging the gravel cleaning it. You will be amazed how much will rinse out after sitting in H2O2 for nearly 48hrs. I've done this with the gravel and sand out of my quarantine tank after clearing a nasty problem.


----------



## forddna

Shoot, if I'm gonna go through the effort of removing 80lbs of substrate and all that cleaning, I might as well just buy new substrate. LOL I was thinking of changing to something else anyway.


----------



## forddna

lauralee, what are you using for a cap, or what do you suggest for a cap?


----------



## GoldenTetra

How many lbs of miracle gro organic soil would you reccommend Lauralee? 

Edit to add; I looked online and the only two reviews on the Miracle-Gro Organic soil said that it was INFESTED with mites... Could this pose a problem to my fish? Should I bake the dirt before putting it in the aquarium or will this force it to lose essential vitamins or nutrients?


To the original poster - not trying to hijack your thread lol, sorry.


----------



## wkndracer

forddna said:


> lauralee, what are you using for a cap, or what do you suggest for a cap?





lauraleellbp said:


> Flourite black is my own personal favorite of the commercially available substrates to date. The fired clays are all pretty much the same, though.


:hihi:


----------



## forddna

Oops. LOL But is that the one she uses as a cap or as a stand alone substrate?


----------



## wkndracer

GoldenTetra said:


> How many lbs of miracle gro organic soil would you reccommend Lauralee?
> 
> Edit to add; I looked online and the only two reviews on the Miracle-Gro Organic soil said that it was INFESTED with mites... Could this pose a problem to my fish? Should I bake the dirt before putting it in the aquarium or will this force it to lose essential vitamins or nutrients?
> 
> 
> To the original poster - not trying to hijack your thread lol, sorry.


I'm not Lauralee but a 16qt bag is more than enough for a tank up 75 or 90g in rated size. Dry you need about 1.5-2" maximum depth when you press the soil flat with the palm of you're hand. Cover it with the cap and flood the tank.

Miracle-Gro branded products are processed at regional sites and the content can vary not only because of where but also when it was bagged. Based on my own experience and Walstad's limited posts on APC Miracle-Gro Organic Potting Mix is what is recommended not the bags labeled as 'soil'. 

HTH


----------



## wkndracer

forddna said:


> Oops. LOL But is that the one she uses as a cap or as a stand alone substrate?


both


----------



## GoldenTetra

wkndracer said:


> I'm not Lauralee but a 16qt bag is more than enough for a tank up 75 or 90g in rated size. Dry you need about 1.5-2" maximum depth when you press the soil flat with the palm of you're hand. Cover it with the cap and flood the tank.
> 
> Miracle-Gro branded products are processed at regional sites and the content can vary not only because of where but also when it was bagged. Based on my own experience and Walstad's limited posts on APC Miracle-Gro Organic Potting Mix is what is recommended not the bags labeled as 'soil'.
> 
> HTH


Thank you for this, its a big help and I actually feel like I'm getting somewhere lol! Very encouraging.


----------



## lauraleellbp

^^^ agreed. :hihi:

One of the big bags of Miracle Gro was more than enough for both my 46gal and my 90gal (I'd bought FOUR bags hahahaha). You don't want too deep a layer, I personally wouldn't go more than 1" with the MG at most. And 3" total including the cap.

I slowly poured water over mine to get it all waterlogged before adding my cap (Flourite mix. You do need something with a relatively smaller grain size to hold the Miracle Gro down- gravel definitely would not work).

Some people sifted their Miracle Gro first to pull out all the bigger pieces that tend to take longer to waterlog and float. Sounds like a good idea to me, but I didn't do that. I just used a big fishnet and skimmed several times during the first day.


----------



## wkndracer

I can post links to 3 established dirt threads that are 1.5 to 2" dirt and only 1" capping material without any float through at all. I have other tanks with less material but seeing not a single reason not to go thicker on the base with the maximum being 2" in my experience. Going too deep on the cap can cause some real issues too but mainly when sand is used.


----------



## forddna

I would think shallower dirt makes for less messy scaping. ??


----------



## lauraleellbp

wkndracer said:


> I can post links to 3 established dirt threads that are 1.5 to 2" dirt and only 1" capping material without any float through at all. I have other tanks with less material but seeing not a single reason not to go thicker on the base with the maximum being 2" in my experience. Going too deep on the cap can cause some real issues too but mainly when sand is used.


My main reasons are risk of eventual anaerobic activity due to all the organic content and how much the MG tends to compact over time. I've ended up with quite a bit of roots showing on rosette plants as the MG settled during the first few weeks in the corner of my 46gal where the MG piled up a big higher. Went through a second crypt meltdown, and I suspect that was the cause.


----------



## GoldenTetra

Ok, so if I were to do 1.5" of miracle-gro and 1.5" of say, Black Diamond Blasting Sand... It would be sufficient? I've heard a bit about the need of malaysian trumpet snails to help aerate that soil.. Would they be necessary in this case?


----------



## wkndracer

lauraleellbp said:


> My main reasons are risk of eventual anaerobic activity due to all the organic content and how much the MG tends to compact over time. I've ended up with quite a bit of roots showing on rosette plants as the MG settled during the first few weeks in the corner of my 46gal where the MG piled up a big higher. Went through a second crypt meltdown, and I suspect that was the cause.


This is another example of our at times confusing hobby.
The confusing part of this is because reported by Walstad and other sources both conditions are a normal part of any substrate with both anaerobic and aerobic activity being part of the process in every aquarium.

Large imbalances are the problem. 

Reading this post if I'm understanding it correctly;
_'I've ended up with quite a bit of roots showing on rosette plants as the MG settled during the first few weeks in the corner of my 46gal where the MG piled up a big higher.'_ 
This isn't so much settlement as the consumption of the organics and as I posted earlier the reason I use a deeper base layer. The consumption and the release of the carbons by the bacteria reduce the soil to it's mineral content. Exactly the same thing that occurs in the process of making MTS only it happens in a fully submerged state. Being submerged slows the rate of organic decay. I view this as timed release food for the plants which is exactly what it is. 

Without a thicker layer inadequate material is being provided to sustain the plants long term. And again long term is subjective to a given point of view.

To answer Golden's question snails are useful with a soil substrate but you may find as I did that the tank needs to age some and allow parameters to settle before adding shrimp and burrowing snails. This isn't always a problem but within the first couple months of setup on tanks I go lightly adding the bottom group. One of the trade offs that's involved with NPT early on, stocking lightly in some areas. Not that different from most any new setup though.

Found a very simple video addressing this at the overview level of detail.
http://youtu.be/NU7UjA0AHos


There is *very* detailed information available but some of it is rather 'chewy'.
HTH


----------



## green_valley

GoldenTetra said:


> To the original poster - not trying to hijack your thread lol, sorry.


It's ok, because I am also learning more from others' questions. So keep it coming.


----------

