# Mineralized topsoil Qs



## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

I am planning on getting mineralized topsoil for my 35 gallon tank. I am giving away my black moor, so it opens a window of opportunity to try something new. 

1. OK so I can't find Dolomite for the life of me. Is it really that important ingredient in mineralized topsoil? Can I just buy a trace mix of some sort? I know it is for magnesium.

2. Where would one go to obtain pottery clay? I know it is for iron and for keeping stuff together... so I kind of want it.

3. Has anyone had any luck with water column feeders? I want subwassertang, willow moss, java fern and elodea, (along with a few other plants that grow roots better) 

4. Same goes for brand new cuttings. Should one plant all the stems at the start and just remove the tops?

5. How does it get mineralized by sitting in the sun and drying out? When do the minerals come in?

I am not going to convert all my tanks to "MTS." (not malaysian trumpet snails) I just want to try it out and see if I like it better than "EI." I am going to order some KCl to put in. Should I get a trace mix if I can't get dolomite?


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## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

I've recently done up my own batch of MTS, and can help with your first question. Basically, dolomite is comprised of calcium, magnesium and carbonate. The purpose of dolomite is to ensure that the MTS doesn't turn acidic and leech heavy metals.

The people on the forum are going to tell you that you need coral chips + MgSO4 (Epsom salts) to replace the dolomite. Coral chips can be replaced with cuttlebone. They're also going to illogically tell you that GH boosters like Seachem Equilibrium cannot be used. They're incorrect. You can, if you don't mind the slightly higher cost, use Seachem Equilibrium as a direct replacement for dolomite. I've posted several times asking for reasons why it can't be used, but the "experts" beat around the bush and are unable to give a logical response, which leads me to believe thy are just spouting nonsense and don't know what they're talking about.

Hope this solves the first of your queries =)


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## cah925 (May 18, 2007)

2. Pottery clay - I got mine from the local university art department. I think it cost $3 for 2 lbs. Pretty cheap and I had enough to put some away until my next project came up. You can also look around at arts/craft stores. Make sure you are getting pure clay and not the polymer stuff.
3. I grew ferns and mosses in my mineralized tanks with no problems.
4. Plant the cuttings, but give them enough time to establish roots before cutting the tops off. Your tank will get messy/cloudy if you try to pull the bottoms out and replant the tops every time you want to trim.
I would rather not answer 1 & 5 since I'm not 100% sure on the answer and I don't want to misinform you.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

1. Dolomite is CaMg(CO3)2
So it's for a source of Ca and Mg, both of which are taken in from the water column.

Dolomite is not easy to dissolve, but will over time.
Most plants take in K+, Ca, and Mg via the leaves.
So the water column, routine water changes takes care of that, you can add GH booster once a week etc.

5. the minerals are already there, they are in reduced form, adding water and letting sit for a 2-3 weeks allows bacteria to "mineralize them" which is to say.oxidize them from the reduced state to the oxidized state, same thing we do, we eat sugars(reduced Carbon), burn them and expel the oxidized CO2(oxidized carbon).

This process can be done via bacteria, or you can boil the sediment for 10 min, or bake for 1 hour at say 500F etc.

They all oxidize the organic matter.

MS is not about using either EI or MS, some clowns here and else where seem to think so.

If you are smart and have a brain, you can clearly see using non limiting sediment nutrients and water column nutrients act synergistically, this way you cover both of your bases, since plants take up nutrients from both locations.

Not just one or the other, that either or business is for warped thinking.
It's good for experimental approaches, but for management for aquarist, it's a huge stumbling block.

If you forget to add ferts using the water column, then you have a back up for the sediment. If you want the sediment to last longer and have better growth, add ferts to the water column as well. There are some who seem to assume incorrectly that you cannot do both the water column and the sediment at the same time.

I'm not sure why, the logic is rather apparent and obvious. You do not gain much by not adding a few ferts to the water column and that is hardly hard.
Even with MS, you still need to add some things to the water column, another item or two does not save you anything.

Nutrients by and large are easy to manage, CO2 and light will provide far more success and gain for most aquarists.

Use MS, or ADA AS etc, then add water column ferts(full or 1/2 etc), then manage light and then CO2 carefully.

This way you cover everything,and everywhere..... not just one :icon_idea

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## FloridaFishGuy (Aug 22, 2004)

plantbrain said:


> 1. Dolomite is CaMg(CO3)2
> This process can be done via bacteria, or you can boil the sediment for 10 min, or bake for 1 hour at say 500F etc.


So to mineralize your soil, you can just put it in the oven? That is much easier than the other method of using water and drying in the sun. Have people done this with success?


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## topfrog007 (Dec 30, 2007)

FloridaFishGuy said:


> So to mineralize your soil, you can just put it in the oven? That is much easier than the other method of using water and drying in the sun. Have people done this with success?


+1 ... Would love to know this also. Would save so much time/hassle.


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## FloridaFishGuy (Aug 22, 2004)

topfrog007 said:


> +1 ... Would love to know this also. Would save so much time/hassle.


Not sure the wife is going to love it but keeps you from looking like a retard letting mud dry in your yard.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FloridaFishGuy said:


> Not sure the wife is going to love it but keeps you from looking like a retard letting mud dry in your yard.


You can boil it also for 10 min, again, the folks in you home may beat you:redface:

So mineralizing it for 2-3 weeks might be better if so.
You also retain the bacteria so it starts with a nice colony and pre cycled.
But it does the same type of thing.

After we dry sediment at 60C for 48 hours, we weigh it and then do
the weight loss on ignition method is based upon measuring the weight loss from a dry soil sample(60C) when exposed to high temperatures (360C). The weight loss that occurs at this temperature is then correlated to oxidizable organic carbon. This is best suited for higher OM sediments.
Other methods such as acid digestion can be used for very low %OM sediments/sands etc.

But what do I know about wetland sediments:icon_roll


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

FloridaFishGuy said:


> Not sure the wife is going to love it but keeps you from looking like a retard letting mud dry in your yard.


Of course explaining why you are baking mud pies in the oven, when the wife asks, is much better than looking bad because you make a big mud pie and let the sun bake it. I often wonder what the response is when people wash their big pieces of driftwood in the dishwasher, too.


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## ingg (Jan 18, 2007)

More direct answer to your question 5 - typical soil initially smells, umm, musty, swampy, like somebody let a nasty silent one go , when underwater for a day. You also get this crusty film on the water surface hours after agitation. After a few cycles - maybe 3, maybe 5... it won't smell anymore, and there isn't that nasty film on the water surface. When the smell is gone and the film doesn't show up, it is ready.

Side note stuff - 

I'm of the understanding that the wet and dry cycles are to promote natural bacterial consumption of organics.

I did ask the person I learned it from about baking it and was told it would kill that very same bacteria I was trying to use to do the process, and so not to do it. I don't know enough about the finer points of how the bacteria works versus heat to say whether ones works better or worse, or anything. I simply knew to listen to the dude(s, was two of them actually) with the degrees and history of working on this type of stuff and did it the way he (they) suggested at the time. 

But then, there are currently three containers of driftwood soaking out my my deck, too. I guess I lean towards being the one with it in the backyard for a week or two vs. messing with mud pies in the kitchen or steel wool on a destroyed pot.


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## invert1 (Jun 25, 2008)

Not sure about boiling it but baking does nothing towards mineralization. It just gives you toasted dirt.


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## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

Thanks for the replies everyone! I didn't check until now and there is a lot of good information here.



ingg said:


> More direct answer to your question 5 - typical soil initially smells, umm, musty, swampy, like somebody let a nasty silent one go , when underwater for a day. You also get this crusty film on the water surface hours after agitation. After a few cycles - maybe 3, maybe 5... it won't smell anymore, and there isn't that nasty film on the water surface.


Is this the stench that bubbles up from ponds when the bottom is disturbed? I dislike the scent.

I think I'll just buy dry ferts online to get magnesium.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

invert1 said:


> Not sure about boiling it but baking does nothing towards mineralization. It just gives you toasted dirt.


Do you know what mineralization does to sediment?

What is the effects on say wood to high heat?
Wood is reduced organic carbon.
What happens when you oxidize(eg burn it)?

What do you think bacteria do with they oxidize (eg aerobic respiration) reduced forms to oxidized forms? They burn it for the energy in the reduced chemical bonds. So do we for that matter.

One is a biological slow process, however, heat does oxidize reduced carbon and heat is a standard method to measure % organic matter in sediment by loss of ignition.

http://aesl.ces.uga.edu/protected/methods/details/stl-soil/13.html

And a sample protocol:
pasternack.ucdavis.edu/protocols/LOI.doc 

The organic fraction is converted into CO2.
That is what the bacteria are doing while they are mineralizing.
Heat does the same thing.

That is why we use it for measuring things like % organic matter.
It does not merely toast the dirt, it oxidizes it specifically.

Boiling is not nearly as hot, but accomplishes a similar process and both methods have been used for many years successfully.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

CxHx +O2 -> CO2 + H2O

Cellular respiration and burning hydro-carbons are one and the same. Only difference is that cellular respiration produces liquid H2O rather than steam. All organic compounds have carbon and hydrogen, sometimes oxygen or nitrogen... (and others)

CASE CLOSED!

Thank you for your time, Tom Barr, and others whom of which have answered my questions. 

Chemistry is the future. The future... is now.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

If you have high ph won't the dolomite raise the ph?


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## seds (Jan 30, 2009)

I think it only neutralizes the PH but you never know. I thought something had to have OH in it to raise PH. In theory, if dolomite reacted with HCl...
... CaMg(CO3)2 + 4HCl -> 2 H2CO3 + MgCl2 + CaCl2

If it neutralizes acid, it would probably raise PH. (I'm in chem 30, so I do reactions every day) Bear in mind hydrogen-carbonate is still a week acid.


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## keno (Oct 30, 2009)

To the person looking for Dolomite i found it at my local VitaminShoppe store at $5-$6 a bottle. So you may want to check your local vitamin store.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Doesn't boiling the substrate make a nasty smell?

About the dolomite putting it in substrate I found will raise the ph. Thus if ph is high best to use peat or dirt with peat in it. I trying out cactus substrate with reptile coconut brick along with scotts top soil.


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## Dragonstar (Oct 25, 2009)

Is Dolomite the same thing as calcium carbonate?

The Aqua Medic bottle description reads "Pure calcium carbonate for use as a soil ground, as filtration media in sea water...." My LFS carries a very coarse sand/fine gravel that is white and labeled as 100% calcium carbonate. They sell it as a bed for crab terrariums.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Hilde said:


> Doesn't boiling the substrate make a nasty smell?
> 
> About the dolomite putting it in substrate I found will raise the ph. Thus if ph is high best to use peat or dirt with peat in it. I trying out cactus substrate with reptile coconut brick along with scotts top soil.


No, it gets rid of the stank.
There's not need to add dolomite to sediments.
You can if you want, I use it, but it's because it's a nice white color, asethetics only. It dissolves much slower than CaCO3, eg aragonite and the less soluble calcite(eg seachem onyx sand).

It does give off some Ca and Mg over the long term, but these are taken in from the water column typically in most aquatic plants. It's not even considered a limiting nutrient in most studies I've ever seen on soft water systems, it is just rare that it might occur with most soils we might use.

Does it hurt?
No, but I think many are just adding things they think might help even though there's not much to it really helping.

So the MS turns into a stew of various things folks might think will help, vs something that is consistent or has really shown to important, significant.

ADA AS is pretty low, so is wetland soils in general.
Florida has some massive changes, some sands are limestones, others are super soft bog peat, pH of 4.7 etc. Same plants growing in both locations.

I have to wonder if there's an issue with not putting Dolomite, or a carbonate, Ca, Mg etc.

Most folks do water changes and this adds it, and most plants take it up via foliar. Folks also add traces with rich sediments(ADA, Worm castings etc all suggest this), even though there's plenty of Fe in both and in most soils used for MS. Even a year or two later, there's still a lot of Fe.

So adding GH booster would address that once every week or two etc even if you did not do any water changes.

Why put all your nutrient eggs in one or the other location when both makes the most logically sense?

You still are stuck with dosing "something", adding another item or two is no biggie and takes virtually hardly any extra "management". CO2 is far more relevant. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Does anybody know where to get red clay powder? I know that I saw it in one of the MTS threads. I did some searches but couldn't turn it up again(?).


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## Riiz (Apr 30, 2008)

I get my red clay at a Joann's Craft store, it is labeled red mexican clay, btw.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Is it in the regular moist clay form, or a powder?


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## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

Marjon Ceramics


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Does that place have the dry powder form clay, and can you link the page if they do? The homepage display is all screwed up on my browser.


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## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

Their raw clay page is all dry powdered clays. You can see the composition on thier raw clay descripton page.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Hey thanks a lot that's just what I needed.


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## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

No problem. This site is a better resource for the actual composition. You can search the product alphabetically and covers more than marjons list since they don't list the composition of all thier products.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

I imagine that a lot of those potter's clays are pretty comparable, but do you know if people have selected any of those inparticular for use with MTS? I suppose seomthing with high Fe would be best(?).


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## JDowns (Mar 6, 2008)

Honestly I cannot say. I doubt any type of analysis has been done by those using this method other then Tom. Is 5% over 45% Fe better or worse. I would think there are more beneficial properties then just the Fe content but most of that is above my pay grade. Since Al is negatively charged and contributes to a higher CEC maybe a higher Al content is better. Percentage of lignites, and loss on ignition as a representation of carbonates I'm sure also play different roles. Maybe Tom can chime in on that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Clays are good, I do not think you will ever run out of Fe in the sediment for most products/soils etc. whether they provide enough for long term health and growth as a tank matures is another story, just because a nutrient is in the sediment, does not imply adding Fe to the water column will not enhance growth rates very significantly.

I see folks going all with the water column dosing, or all with sediments.
Few folks from the various post in the last few months/year or two, heck even the worm casters, seem realistic and pragmatic enough to use both:icon_idea

Hopefully some nagging will change that:hihi:
Nagnagnagnag

ADA does it this also(uses both, but lean due to lower light etc)

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I've always added Iron Chelate, peat, and potash sprinkles to my big tanks and I just started doing that to my small species tanks (10-20gal) before adding my substrates. I almost always add GH booster after my Sunday WC's but allot of times that's about all I add to the low light tanks. On my hi-tech tanks I do the same thing plus water column ferts and C02.

I guess I'm a bit odd judging from some of the comments I've gotten about doing things like this. It seems everyone wants to dump Eco in there tanks and not do any type of fert dosing.

- Brad


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

bradac56 said:


> I've always added Iron Chelate, peat, and potash sprinkles to my big tanks and I just started doing that to my small species tanks (10-20gal) before adding my substrates. I almost always add GH booster after my Sunday WC's but allot of times that's about all I add to the low light tanks. On my hi-tech tanks I do the same thing plus water column ferts and C02.
> 
> I guess I'm a bit odd judging from some of the comments I've gotten about doing things like this. It seems everyone wants to dump Eco in there tanks and not do any type of fert dosing.
> 
> - Brad


Why not is a good question I ask. Never gotten much of an answer. Bit of snippty sniping, "because I chose to", rather than any rational behind it.
Many admit they have less than optimal results with some species, and still like the overall ease of it, but dosing the water column is not hard either, that is like........... claiming dosing the fish food is hard or something.

The same argument is on the other side with folks claiming issues with dosing the water column or the crowd that thinks less NO3 and less PO4 is better in the water column, why not use another source that is not in the water column to supply more ppm's to the plants via the roots/sediments?

I do not get it.

You have 2 doors(locations) in your house(the aquarium in this case), why the heck would you only use the front door?

This takes nothing away from MTS, or MS, or Worm castings, or ADA AS.......usage or support nor takes anything away from water column dosing either for support for aquatic plant horticulture.

If you want to _improve a method_, then use both.
Then you can see.

Otherwise, you only look at one side of the coin.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

At the risk of getting flamed I think it comes down to people not following good aquarium practices since that takes to much work. Personally I could care less what substrate I use in a particular tank since the basics are the basics no matter what. I just look for what's cheapest at the moment they all work well as long as your doing everything else (WC, ferts, C02, QC tanks, cycling, etc).

- Brad


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Some people just want it one way Tom. Their advice is dictated (usually) by what they have done successfully themselves.

Its not a question of who is right and wrong. Some people prefer to do things their way. If they have success, then why can't they discuss that openly? 

You seem to drive home that providing nutrients in excess is "what should be done" and underdosing defies any logic. Well, there are people who have successfully done same, does this mean that they are doing it "wrong".

I really can care less how people dose and what volumes they dose to. I don't care if you buy an over the counter ferts and I can care less what ppm your KNO3 dosing is at. All that should matter is that people are aware that their can be multiple ways of doing things and that plants require "something" to grow. 

At the end of the day, I am going to operate my aquariums the way I see fit, as well as everyone else in the hobby. Experience will usually dictate this. 

What I consider "logical" is that you can get all the instructions in the world from people, but at the end of the day, its just you and the aquarium full of plants. You want to grow them healthy? You decide what method will get you there.



> Bit of snippty sniping, "because I chose to", rather than any rational behind it.


You want rationale, go look at peoples tank journals who DON'T dose. Proof is in the pudding. There is no need to jab people for what they believe and do, there is proven success, yes PROVEN. The peoples tanks speak for themselves. I have seen quite a few personally and I can say that they look just as good as an EI dosed tank or whatever you do.

This endless debate over who is right and wrong is just nonsense. Everybody hears you. We have heard you say it over and over again. 

So lets stop putting people down because they don't agree with you.


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## hydrophyte (Mar 1, 2009)

Today I ordered some natural red clay from that Marjon Ceramics joint. Thanks again for that link.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

seds said:


> 1. OK so I can't find Dolomite for the life of me. Is it really that important ingredient in mineralized topsoil? Can I just buy a trace mix of some sort? I know it is for magnesium.


The dolomite slowly releases Ca and Mg to the soil, helping to keep it from going too acidic. It is also good for the plants. A trace mix is not going to slowly dissolve, you can mix some trace mix into the clay though, it will be available for the plants at the start while the dolomite starts to dissolve. 



seds said:


> 2. Where would one go to obtain pottery clay? I know it is for iron and for keeping stuff together... so I kind of want it.


I think you got a few good answers already. The clay is used instead of laterite because it is cheaper. If you can find laterite and don't mind the cost, go for it.



seds said:


> 3. Has anyone had any luck with water column feeders? I want subwassertang, willow moss, java fern and elodea, (along with a few other plants that grow roots better)


Anubias, java ferns, mosses, etc., grow just fine in the tanks I have, to the point that I lump java moss and riccia in with algae. Feel free to add ferts to the water column if you are worried about it. Anubias love to have some iron in the water and adding a little K is a good idea. 



seds said:


> 4. Same goes for brand new cuttings. Should one plant all the stems at the start and just remove the tops?


Stems can be grown the same as in an ADA, EC, or Flourite tank. Topping and planting the cuttings in with the 'stumps' thickens up the stand faster. 



seds said:


> 5. How does it get mineralized by sitting in the sun and drying out? When do the minerals come in?


What is being mineralized is all of the organics in the soil. The process hastens the bacterial digestion of all the humics, proteins, etc by letting aerobic bacteria do the work. 

btw 

It is not just a change of sugars to water and CO2. It is not just a way to gas off ammonia. It is like what happens to spinach, after you cook it, when you eat it. Cooking doesn't complete the digestive process, or turn the spinach into soil. Our digestive system doesn't turn it into soil. The bacteria that complete the process is what turns the spinach into soil.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

gmccreedy said:


> Some people just want it one way Tom. Their advice is dictated (usually) by what they have done successfully themselves.
> 
> Its not a question of who is right and wrong. Some people prefer to do things their way. If they have success, then why can't they discuss that openly?


Why bother improving or looking for **why things work**, or looking at the other side of the coin then? 
Why ever go beyond a non CO2 aquarium?
They work and look nice too



> You seem ....


But I don't say ........



> to drive home that providing nutrients in excess is "what should be done" and underdosing defies any logic.


*No*, I am fairly clear in the fact that there is a wide range of nutrient ranges in the water column and also, in the sediments that aquatic plants grow well in. 
This is true both in aquariums and in natural systems.
I also make that point clear in many many post over a long time now.
I even show this in field trips on aquatic plants.

Get real.

Why and how these conditions exist and what drives them is a key to better and wider usage under more management options, whether they be lean or rich. 

If something is not clear, simply ask.



> Well, there are people who have successfully done same, does this mean that they are doing it "wrong".


Nope, but I never said anything close to that either.



> I really can care less how people dose and what volumes they dose to. I don't care if you buy an over the counter ferts and I can care less what ppm your KNO3 dosing is at. All that should matter is that people are aware that their can be multiple ways of doing things and that plants require "something" to grow.


Then we agree.
My question is more about why, how and what management trade offs are worthwhile to each person specifically. Everyone has a different goal.



> So lets stop putting people down because they don't agree with you.


WTH?

Give me a name where I put someone down personally/specifically.
I've debated this point on several forums, not just here. Some poo pooed me for questioning/suggesting some changes that might help improve "their"(?) method/s. How dare I suggest that this method could be improved?
Gasp.....

I'm interested in the debate of the source of nutrients, and how folks can help and improve a method, no method will be all things to all people. 
Some take debate personal.

Perhaps blind acceptance is more what you are advocating?

I do not use solely one method nor even advocate that. I never have. So folks can improve it and look at what and why it works, what can be done to improve it etc. Then folks have more options, more tools and make better informed changes for management. 

You still only look at one side of a coin if all you do is use one method that "works", we'd all still be using non CO2 soil based aquariums, they work also and look very nice. No? 

Why do anything in the hobby different if that's your logic,rational?

regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> The dolomite slowly releases Ca and Mg to the soil, helping to keep it from going too acidic. It is also good for the plants.


Do you think it's really due to being too acidic?

I've found plenty of examples where the pH is very low and plant growth is excellent. Same with ADA AS, pH is rather low.

I can see it being more a long term source for plants for Mg, Ca, both those are typically taken up by leaves, and much less by root in aquatic plants(but it will leach at some point). So adding a little dolomite to the filter might be better, easier and able to resupply? Seems like less a management issue since much of the Ca/Mg/K+ can be supplied via GH boosters or SeaChem Eq. If K+ is going to be added anyway, and we can mix the Ca/Mg in with that......or ad to the filter.
Gives several options all of which are pretty easy.

It(pH high or low effect) wears off in soils anyway after the first few weeks anyhow after flooding tending to neutral pH. This is a wide spread general effect in pH response in flooded soils. 

So does the sediment really need a buffer to reduce acidity?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> You still only look at one side of a coin if all you do is use one method that "works", we'd all still be using non CO2 soil based aquariums, they work also and look very nice. No?
> 
> Why do anything in the hobby different if that's your logic,rational?
> 
> ...


Lord I ask that all the time and get beat all to heck and back by the Eco-Complete or nothing crowd, or the hi-tech or nothing crowd, or the NPT or nothing crowd.

I thought the point to the 'serious' hobby was to tinker with new things but I might be wrong about that. I'm lucky enough to have a basement fishroom with lots of tanks so I can tinker to my harts content which is the thing I like doing the most.

- Brad


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## bherren1 (Feb 15, 2009)

I agree that tinkering and trying new things is half the fun. The possibilities are only limited by the imagination. I hate boxes...I'm claustrophobic. 

There is never really a "right" or "wrong" way to do anything. If that were the case would we have ever evolved past unicellular organisms? But there is always the possibility of a better way.


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I ask that all the time and get beat all to heck and back by the Eco-Complete or nothing crowd


I don't see that happening here, Brad. On TPT that is.

This is a pretty open-minded place for the most part. We have quite a few people doing quite a few things. Sure, success leads to some "advocation" at times, but on the whole things are pretty even.

Thank goodness!


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

It happens here a bit here but not as bad as APC or the other six or seven forums I post on (say here to apc and back) it's more of a global community and not a single forum anymore so it all blurs together after awhile.

- Brad


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

The important factors are if the plants are growing and if you can stand the amount of algae in your tank. And then you act accordingly.

It is a bit fun to go into the NPT forum over at APC and say I'm dosing ferts in my NPT tank or go into Barr's forum and say i'm getting off the EI method because my lights and CO2 doesn't call for it.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Tom, 

It may, it may not, however, with the dolomite there it probably won't and the plants benefit. Simple logic that I know you employ when you make statements about EI, CO2, etc. BTW Glenn has a point, you don't know how to answer the question being asked, you only know that you have an opinion about the question and you prefer to state it. 

Brad

Usually when a discussion of a method comes up it is because someone wants to try it or has questions about it. When they get answers they tend to be directed at that method. It is not that other methods don't exist, it is that the answers are for the method under discussion. I made a point to the GWAPA club after a meeting discussing moving from a 'low tech' to a 'high tech' aquarium. No matter what method they chose to use there is someone in the club that has done that or something similar who can help them along the way. 

As to innovation, people can tinker to their hearts content, but if someone asks a specific question about a specific method it is more productive to actually answer the question. We expect the people who tinker to post how they tinkered and what happened. Hell, the mineralized soil process came about because I studied, asked questions, studied some more, and then started tinkering. So you have a choice, tinker and post and be helpful, or go back to hiding in your basement, tinker, and be useless and keep it all to yourself. However, hi-jacking a thread to expound on one's tinkering probably will result in unappreciated responses. Start a thread about your tinkering, people will ask you questions and you can have a field day answering them. Ask Tom, he started his own forum so he could do just that.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm not quite sure how to take that SCMurphy especially from a moderator. Who are you accusing of hi-jacking me or Tom or both? I gave my opinion along with others and the original poster can decided what to do himself. I also replied back to Tom during the discussion about a side note, is that what you seem to be mad about?

This is the second angry post by a moderator I've seen and it's all focused on Tom to stifle discussion which worries me as that's the point of this forum. All sides should be able to give there opinion without ridicule. Yes Tom is a bit intense 99% of the time but the best way to not inflame someone is to not make hasty replies like these. If you go through my post history you will find that I tend to stop posting to threads when it devolves into a purple/green argument.

- Brad


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

No accusations were made about hi-jacking, just responding to your previous post, making some suggestions about how or when to post your tinkering findings.



bradac56 said:


> Lord I ask that all the time and get beat all to heck and back by the Eco-Complete or nothing crowd, or the hi-tech or nothing crowd, or the NPT or nothing crowd.
> 
> - Brad


If you are getting "beat all to heck and back" that often you might be doing something wrong. 

Angry, nope, highly amused, yeah.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> No accusations were made about hi-jacking, just responding to your previous post, making some suggestions about how or when to post your tinkering findings.
> 
> If you are getting "beat all to heck and back" that often you might be doing something wrong.
> 
> Angry, nope, highly amused, yeah.



Cool, sorry about that I was just confused about some of the recent posts. I guess I was seeing conspiracies around the corner again 

I corrected most of that since I don't post much to the El Natural forum on APC or the NPT forums anymore, that helped allot 

- Brad


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> Cool, sorry about that I was just confused about some of the recent posts. I guess I was seeing conspiracies around the corner again
> 
> I corrected most of that since I don't post much to the El Natural forum on APC or the NPT forums anymore, that helped allot
> 
> - Brad


IME TPT is pretty laid back, most of the time. 

I just told Sara the other day that it tickles me no end how easily we planted tankers can get our knickers in knots over... DIRT! :hihi:

One of my own personal mentras- there's generally more than one way to skin a cat.

People approach their hobbies with all sorts of different goals. Some may be head over heels into the horticultural and scientific aspects. Some may want a plant or two just to contrast nicely against their fish. Some may see their tank as an extention of their outdoor garden. Some may want to tinker and have their hands in their tank on a daily basis, others may want to set up a tank that they can just about leave alone.... There's room in this hobby for us all. :thumbsup:


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Laura Lee - You go girl. :thumbsup: 

That pretty much sums it all up and is excellent advice.

Now - I need to ask a question.

What is the purpose of boiling? In my experience, boiling generally kills bacteria. At least, when I had a retainer the doctor told us to boil it for thirty seconds once a week to cut down on bacteria. Wouldn't boiling the dirt harm the process or is the bacteria not an issue when it comes to mineralizing the soil?

I ask because I am in my second stage of the soaking cycle and didn't know what is the best method. Please help.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Hey,
Boiling is just like baking or drying multiple times. It converts the ammonium to a safer nitrogen source.

Boiling & baking is a faster process, that's all. The only difference is that you will kill off the bacteria as mentioned. But I think the bacteria will quickly re-established in the aquarium.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> Boiling & baking is a faster process, that's all. The only difference is that you will kill off the bacteria as mentioned. But I think the bacteria will quickly re-established in the aquarium.


My understanding of the mineralization process is that it's relying on different species of bacteria in each wet vs dry stage. It's a "miniturization" of the great river flood/dry out processes that create the worlds most fertile farmlands, such as along the Nile, Yangtze, Mississippi, and Amazon rivers.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

yeah, I believe the wet/dry process has the same chemical outcome as application of heat (breaking up molecules and recombine with other molecules). That's what I've read anyway.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Sara, read this post.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> Sara, read this post.


The question was the following:

5. How does it get mineralized by sitting in the sun and drying out? When do the minerals come in?



SCMurphy said:


> What is being mineralized is all of the organics in the soil. The process hastens the bacterial digestion of all the humics, proteins, etc by letting aerobic bacteria do the work.
> 
> btw
> 
> It is not just a change of sugars to water and CO2. It is not just a way to gas off ammonia. It is like what happens to spinach, after you cook it, when you eat it. Cooking doesn't complete the digestive process, or turn the spinach into soil. Our digestive system doesn't turn it into soil. The bacteria that complete the process is what turns the spinach into soil.


Sean,

I am dense. I am reading this and thinking that no, you should _*not*_ boil the soil. Simply based on the fact when you boil spinach, the good stuff is leached out into the water, or killed off by high temperatures and often taken away. That's why raw veggies are better for you.

By this rudimentary deduction, I am reading the drying *IS* the whole point to the mineralizing. However, I am not sure I am interpreting this correctly. Help me, please!

Edit: Oh I forgot to thank you Laura and Minh! I read your messages and am still confused because of my lack of understanding mineralizing soil. Therefore, pester the source.


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## diceroller00 (Aug 31, 2006)

sewingalot said:


> Sean,
> 
> I am dense. I am reading this and thinking that no, you should _*not*_ boil the soil.


Your not dense, I don't believe Sean is saying to boil the soil or not boil it, he's saying that boiling the soil is something different altogether from his mineralization procedure, and yields a different end product. 



sewingalot said:


> Simply based on the fact when you boil spinach, the good stuff is leached out into the water, or killed off by high temperatures and often taken away. That's why raw veggies are better for you.


 It's not that boiling is removing desirable nutrients, or killing beneficial bacteria, It's just doing something different than the repeated wet/ dry cycles (bacterial conversion/digestion) 


sewingalot said:


> By this rudimentary deduction, I am reading the drying *IS* the whole point to the mineralizing. However, I am not sure I am interpreting this correctly. Help me, please!


 Yes! you are correct, the soaking phase is to introduce water into the soil to get the aerobic bacteria going, and also to dilute/wash any fertilizers or any thing else "bad" (water soluble) that you don't want in the final product. The drying phase is the key to the procedure, this introduces oxygen for the bacteria to use. The bacteria consume o2 and the raw organics, and convert them into a mineralized form. Sean's analogy is a perfect one, Boiling a piece of spinach doesn't turn it in to a nutrient source the body can use directly, digestion (by bacteria) has to take place first in order for the body to utilize the nutrients locked up in that vegetable. In both cases bacteria is the workhorse. Until somebody takes some soil, splits it into 2 batches, boils/bakes first half, mineralizes the second half and then has it sent to a lab to analyze the resultant makeup, it's all speculation. I will say that personally, I don't believe that you just boil/bake soil and come up with the same product that mother nature makes in bogs/wetlands through aerobic and anaerobic bacterial digestion, wet/dry cycles, and time.
~Jon


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Sara,

It is all in the soil to start with, we are just getting the bacteria to change it from organic to mineral.

Thanks Jon, spot on.

Take it a step further, boiling/baking is to gas off the ammonia. This is basically the same thing that putting the soil through an anoxic decomposition would do where anaerobic bacteria cause the release of N2 gas. In both situations the N is lost to the atmosphere. This also results in Hydrogen Sulfide and Methane being released. By drying the soil you are introducing more O2 to the process, allowing the aerobic bacteria to do the decomposition which releases CO2 and mineralizes the soil. Drying the soil is the easiest way I could come up with to make sure there was enough O2 available to drive the decomposition through the aerobic pathway. Someone might come up with a better way to do it, with so many people trying it could be soon that someone gets creative.

You could just put the soil in the aquarium straight out of the bag, skipping the mineralization process. The problem is that it takes between 24 and 48 hours and a submerged soil is completely anoxic. Unless you are planting all rosette type plants with big root systems, there is no way to get O2 into that soil. Even if you exclusively plant like this and plant every square inch, there is still a period of time for the plants to get established. This period is when the soil starts leaching the methane and hydrogen sulfide and possibly killing what you planted or worse case, everything in the tank. Think about all the people who complain about the smelly mess they ended up with when they tried a soil substrate.

Plants CAN overcome a completely anoxic substrate. They have an easier time of it if the substrate has been pushed to completion of the digestion of organics that bacteria eat to produce the hydrogen sulfide. Mineralize or don't, it is up to the individual, I know why I recommend it.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Wow. I really learned alot from this. I never really understood the whole breakdown and this really makes sense.

Now! If you DO bake the soil, what is this doing besides rapidly drying the soil? Is it also killing off the bacteria?


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

diceroller00 and Sean - Thanks a whole lot! It is now making sense to me.

In a way, this is a lot like the composts heaps we kept in the garden. It was the process of frequent turning and aerating that broke down the waste and made it rich, vital dirt for the gardens. Sure, we could have thrown it out there on top of the soil and some benefit would be made, but a lot of times, it only grew stank and actually harmed the vegetables. 

I am going on with the process of wetting and drying the soil on a tarp. This really sounds like the ideal solution at the moment. What I like about this explanation you both gave is the scientific basis behind it. You really have put a lot of research into this method and that was the answers I was after.

I feel like this process would be good for gardening as well. I need a really BIG tarp now.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

No, the nature of the beast is different, gardens do better with that organic compost. Spread out an inch of good compost and work it into the top couple inches (keep it shallow) of the garden every time you remove a planting and the soil will be primed for the next planting.


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

SCMurphy said:


> No, the nature of the beast is different, gardens do better with that organic compost. Spread out an inch of good compost and work it into the top couple inches (keep it shallow) of the garden every time you remove a planting and the soil will be primed for the next planting.


I am starting to realize I know nothing about dirt, soil and this process in general. I am not scientific by nature and it is beginning to show. Thanks for the answers and now I realize I need to go back and do some good ole fashion reading.


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