# DIY sump design



## PunknDestroy (May 9, 2013)

The design could use some work. An important thing to consider in cases of sumps is the possibility of a power outage. You want the sump level to be very low to accommodate water that'll enter from the output in a siphon. Best way to achieve this is with baffles separating the sections. First set should be 3 in an over, under, over fashion to regulate water level in the fuge. Second set after fuge should be over under with this being lower than the first set. You can put sponge there to avoid using a filter sock. As for the pump I would go larger and if its too strong you can,split it.,better than having too little flow. If you need any more help with design feel free to PM me


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

I plan to use an overflow box. I was under the impression this mitigated most of the risk of flooding? 

I don't really understand how the over-under-over baffles work. Most of my research seems to show designs closer to this, with flow moving from over the baffle to beneath it. 

Can you explain a bit how the over-under-over works? 

I'll see about the bigger pump. 

Thanks!
: )


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## Bryanmc1988 (Apr 3, 2012)

sump over flooding is 1 thing but a clog in the over flow will send all the water from ur sump into the tank it self... if u want to do it right and do it safe i would build a DIY overflow sensor 

what it does is, if the overflow is clog and water from the tank rises, if the water touch the sensor. the sensor will cut off the power from the pump till its button is restarted...

you can never be to safe if u ask me...


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> sump over flooding is 1 thing but a clog in the over flow will send all the water from ur sump into the tank it self... if u want to do it right and do it safe i would build a DIY overflow sensor
> 
> what it does is, if the overflow is clog and water from the tank rises, if the water touch the sensor. the sensor will cut off the power from the pump till its button is restarted...
> 
> you can never be to safe if u ask me...


That is why I sat the pump higher up, so if the overflow clogs there is a limit on how much water can return. I am not sure I have the DIY techie skills for the overflow sensor.


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## PunknDestroy (May 9, 2013)

Overflow sensors are not necessary if you build the sump with the right ratios. Colin I'm at work at the moment but I will PM you with the basics and some diagrams. Also, overflow boxes are notorious for being some of the least dependable forms of sump filtration, but if they're set up correctly you will have 0 problems. In the 2 years I've been building sumps and helping set ups, I've never had one overflow.



Bryanmc1988 said:


> sump over flooding is 1 thing but a clog in the over flow will send all the water from ur sump into the tank it self... if u want to do it right and do it safe i would build a DIY overflow sensor
> 
> what it does is, if the overflow is clog and water from the tank rises, if the water touch the sensor. the sensor will cut off the power from the pump till its button is restarted...
> 
> you can never be to safe if u ask me...


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

Maybe what I could do is put a side baffle which makes the pump section have a 6x6 inch footprint. That way, if the overflow clogs, there is only about a gallon of water at or above the level of the pump. Once the sump level drops a bit, water will stop flowing into the pump chamber, and only a small amount of extra water can enter the tank. 

How does that sound?


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

Do you mind me asking, why you need a sump? I love sumps in my reef tanks, I don't think I would want to run a tank without one, but Im not sure why you need one in a freshwater tank.

Is the display tank filled with large, messy, herbivores that will eat your plants?

Is the display just filled with a carpet of something and a lot of fish and you're not getting enough nitrate removal through plants and water changes?

I only ask, because I have a jungle style medium dense planted 25 gallon planted tank with a heavy bioload*, and I still have to add nitrate fertilizer 3 times a week, or the plant growth slows down. I don't test much anymore, but when I did, it took about 2 days for the tank to suck out everything the fish produce, plus what I add using the EI dosing method.

So a sump just for nitrate reduction seems like overkill.

*My heavy bioload consists of 20 hengeli rasboras, one large betta, about 15 peppered corydoras (they just bred, I randomly found 3 half inch babies in there last week while cleaning the tank), 3 amanos, 10-20 cherry shrimp, and a billion Malaysian trumpet snails. All heavily fed twice a day, flakes pellets, bloodworms, etc.


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

altiuscitius said:


> Do you mind me asking, why you need a sump? I love sumps in my reef tanks, I don't think I would want to run a tank without one, but Im not sure why you need one in a freshwater tank.
> ...
> 
> So a sump just for nitrate reduction seems like overkill.


I don't need a sump, I just want one. I am about to have a surplus 35 gallon, and this sounds like a fun project to me. Plus it makes for good filtration. 

And I have a moderately heavily stocked, extremely heavily planted 35 (to be sump), and my nitrates tend to be fairly high (30-40 ppm) despite a good water change schedule. but the purpose of the sump it not a nitrate suck, but for filtration. I know a bit filter would be fine, btu I can drop 200 bucks on a filter, or build a sump : )


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## Kathyy (Feb 22, 2010)

Are you going to run the sump on a reverse day?

Not only is a sump fairly cheap to set up they make great places to stash all the hardware, provide pristine water surface and the display tank has a constant water line. Over the years I have had a great time changing the drain and return configurations, easy to do with standard PVC.

They are also very noisy unless you take steps to quiet them. Think flushing toilet that won't stop. Really. Look into how you want to quiet it. A Durso standpipe helps and a Beananimal or Herbie overflow is silent. HD Blazingwolf writes that a very large diameter drain is also silent.

I have used an HOB overflow box for 12 years, recently graduated to a drilled tank. Drilled is better if you can do it. I never had a middle of the night flood but many a booboo during and after water changes. U tube bubble collecting>lost siphon happened slowly enough that I noticed a problem. Ditto for clogged skimmer box teeth [which can happen even with a drilled tank]. Main drain is always covered with a sponge and has never clogged. Leaves covered the antisiphon hole in the return line so siphon wasn't broken when power went off [can still happen]. Guess it is a good thing power doesn't go out often here and I noticed right away that the sump was getting too full.

Plants will do just fine with even 400-500gph going through. I had a black neon tetra fry arrive in the drain area and grow to adult size in my drain area when I was running a Rio 2500. The little guy never looked like he/she was in an current at all. I know sumps are supposed to be more efficient with longer dwell time but between 400gph then and 1200-1400gph now with the exact same sponges I don't notice any problems with more or less nitrate or algal blooms. Wouldn't worry too much about it.

I don't have dividers in my sump as it is a warped acrylic tank that would be super fun to fit with such so no suggestions there. Just consider how to quiet the thing and look into drilling but HOB aren't always disasters.


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

For those of you with sumps, do you go through more CO2 with your sump than without?

The only gain that I can see to a sump over a canister(for freshwater) Is a place to hide your heater. Yeah, you have more room for media, but is it it necessary? I have a heavily stocked 75g with just an XP4 on it.

FWIW, I run a 20g sump on my 72 reef. I have an area sectioned off for my chaeto, then i have some rubble, my heater, and my Reef Octo skimmer, and finally my return pump.

When considering flow rates for sumps, make sure you are considering the head, or height the pump has to lift the water vertically to get to the tank. Also, match your pump size to the draining abilities of your overflow(s). Too much pump results in your DT flooding, too little and your sump floods.


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## altiuscitius (Jul 17, 2012)

colin said:


> I don't need a sump, I just want one. I am about to have a surplus 35 gallon, and this sounds like a fun project to me. Plus it makes for good filtration.
> 
> And I have a moderately heavily stocked, extremely heavily planted 35 (to be sump), and my nitrates tend to be fairly high (30-40 ppm) despite a good water change schedule. but the purpose of the sump it not a nitrate suck, but for filtration. I know a bit filter would be fine, btu I can drop 200 bucks on a filter, or build a sump : )


That's a reasonable then.

Sumps are awesome for doing easy water changes and holding equipment you don't want in the tank, heaters, thermometers, probes, etc.

They're just a lot of extra initial set up work, and then I always have the worry that its going to overflow one day if something goes wrong. I like closed loop systems for peace of mind when possible.

There is a new (to me at least) style of overflow that Ive been seeing on reef websites lately, that is supposed to be flood proof. The mame overflow. The intake and outlet are integrated with vacuum lines to the point where water entering the sump self primes the outlet and its impossible to break the siphone and have it overflow.

Something to look into.


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## PunknDestroy (May 9, 2013)

They aren't exactly new. New in the US, yes, but they've been around in Japan for a while if I remember correctly. Problem with the mame is noise and lower flow rates. 



altiuscitius said:


> That's a reasonable then.
> 
> Sumps are awesome for doing easy water changes and holding equipment you don't want in the tank, heaters, thermometers, probes, etc.
> 
> ...


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

I am actually thinking of a DIY overflow, such as this:






I have a black background so it should be minimally invasive in terms of decor, and by keeping the pipe near the top I can ensure I don't flood the sump, which will have a good 10+ gallons of empty capacity.


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## PunknDestroy (May 9, 2013)

Those actually have the same general problem as the mame if not more. Since they aren't clear you'll never know if it starts clogging, you mess up the measurements something will go wrong, you don't glue it right you'll have a leak, and so on.



colin said:


> I am actually thinking of a DIY overflow, such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bryanmc1988 (Apr 3, 2012)

colin said:


> That is why I sat the pump higher up, so if the overflow clogs there is a limit on how much water can return. I am not sure I have the DIY techie skills for the overflow sensor.



that does will work but u got a problem with that idea.... so what happens if no one is home and water in sump drops to the pump like u said, pump just going to run dry? it'll over heat the pump in no time and burn out the motor...


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks all for the replies. 

As I knew, the biggest issue with a Sump seems to be flood prevention. Here are what I have come up with as my best solution:

*The DIY overflow*, which I will have to check during maintenance (which I do 2x per week) to make sure it is not getting clogged. I can alternately get a store bought overflow, but that is $100 I prefer to avoid. Drilling is a non option. 

With the overflow spout close to the top of the tank, it ,limits how much water can be drawn in in case of a pump failure, so the sump will not flood. 

*The limited size return chamber*. The pump will be in a chamber of about 6x6 inches, and raised up a bit. This way if the overflow clogs, the pump chamber only has so much water to pump back into the tank. 

I see the point about the pump overheating if this happens. However, the pump should not run completely dry, as I don't believe it will pump water to below the intake line. When the water level gets to low, it will be sucking up to much air and thus the pump can't get enough pressure to draw water through, but a small amount of water would still be entering the intake, and circulating a bit or not going anywhere. Is this correct? 

And is there any other solution to a blocked overflow, other tham to limit how much water the pump can send up? I am not savvy enough to build a sensor shut-off.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Apr 3, 2012)

the amount ur putting into a sump is costly no way around it... a shut off sensor only cost about $50 to make... if you cant afford that right now, i say save up and dont use the sump yet... its not worth putting more money out to fix things that can be avoided in the first place...


and 


Yes the problem might not happen over night but maybe 2 days or 10 months down the road... but do u know when? cause i sure dont... and i rather not damage my pump or have to do pool clean up on the floor over a aquarium mishabe + you have to know that water on the floor can lead to mold and mold = death that you can not see... as they grow behind walls and things like that, this is not a home improvement forum so im not going to go into how they spread nor how fast they grow but just keep in mind its dangerous to inhale and if u have kids around i wouldnt want them near molds...


save the money, build a diy overflow sensor - here is a link to the diy with a video on how it works, u dont be disappointed 

http://lifehacker.com/5792725/save-your-fishes-with-an-overflow-sensor


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, I say go for it...just do it RIGHT or it will just become a pain in the butt. You talked about checking the DIY overflow whenever you do maintenance. Be careful...if you add too much to your maintenance list, you are going to turn your tank into work instead of an enjoyable hobby.

Also, again...make sure you match your pump flow rate and your overflow flow rate.

Another thing to consider, with a sump you will also get more surface agitation causing not only noise, but the increase in the offgas of CO2 that you are planning to inject with a reactor. You will have to pump more CO2 into the tank to maintain an ideal CO2 level.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Apr 3, 2012)

i agree with black but for the co2 thing thats not 100% true... if u have the water return under water it will not create to much offgas and u should be ok with that... if ur going to do it, do it "right"


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

Bryanmc1988 said:


> save the money, build a diy overflow sensor - here is a link to the diy with a video on how it works, u dont be disappointed
> 
> http://lifehacker.com/5792725/save-your-fishes-with-an-overflow-sensor


The video doesn't actually show how to make it, it just shots it there. I saw a circuit diagram and it is beyond me. There is no way I have the electronics skills to make that. However, if there is a max of 1 or 2 gallons that can drain into the tank I don't see flooding as a big worry, because I will have enough room in the tank to cover the excess. 

I don't think these sensors are common, and many people use sumps I am sure without constant floods and huge risk. If it is that high a risk for floods, what do the reefers do. A drilled tank would allow just as much water into the sump as what I propose. 

I am not sure what else I could do to make it safer, aside from maybe buying a store bought overflow box. Lots of people run successful sumps, it can't be that bad for flooding with some reasonable precautions.


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## isellcars (Mar 4, 2012)

I don't know what kind of sumps others have in here if they keep complaining about the noise. I have a DIY sump in a drilled tank and its quieter than any HOB that I ever had. 
Go with a filter sock, I would recommend the rectangular one. I have a 90g tank and change sock every 2-3 days. If I wasn't overstocked it would be much longer. 
Yes.....you will use more co2. A 5# tank last me about 4 weeks. But I think it's worth it. I would not get rid of my sump nor would I want another tank without one. My refugium is full of java moss and lava rocks....for the JM to connect to. I also have Pennywort floating. Plus there is lots of RCS down there as well.


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## Bryanmc1988 (Apr 3, 2012)

the sensor is more for safty of over heating pump and what not but thats up to you... i can only advice things, i cant make u do it.... no offence i'm not made just trying to help others out on the forum... with clogs.... it can happen in mins or hr's so the 2x per week check really doesnt help lol if a fish or plant get stuck and builds up it will cause a clog, do what u think is safe enough, you can never be to say... everything has its problems even the sensor. u dont know if it'll stop working or not unless u test it also...


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

Sump shutoff switch, no DIY at all.

http://www.bestnest.com/bestnest/RTProduct.asp?SKU=LIG-566009


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

colin said:


> The video doesn't actually show how to make it, it just shots it there. I saw a circuit diagram and it is beyond me. There is no way I have the electronics skills to make that. However, if there is a max of 1 or 2 gallons that can drain into the tank I don't see flooding as a big worry, because I will have enough room in the tank to cover the excess.
> 
> I don't think these sensors are common, and many people use sumps I am sure without constant floods and huge risk. If it is that high a risk for floods, what do the reefers do. A drilled tank would allow just as much water into the sump as what I propose.
> 
> I am not sure what else I could do to make it safer, aside from maybe buying a store bought overflow box. Lots of people run successful sumps, it can't be that bad for flooding with some reasonable precautions.



Wiring up a float switch, or even two(one in the DT and one in the sump) is an option. Also, if DIY wiring isnt so much your thing...get a Digita Aquatics Reefkeeper Lite. You can control your temp, lights, and CO2 with it...as well as anything else you can imagine. Then you just have to plug in the float switch to the RKL and itll kill the power to your pump.


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

Thanks, I may try to get one of the cut off switches. In order to limit the possibility of clogged overflow, I will block it with a sponge. I ma also still just buy a store made one, as at least then the piping is clear and I can see if it has a problem developing.


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## Black Hills Tj (Jul 19, 2008)

colin said:


> Thanks, I may try to get one of the cut off switches. In order to limit the possibility of clogged overflow, I will block it with a sponge. I ma also still just buy a store made one, as at least then the piping is clear and I can see if it has a problem developing.


Honestly, ask around on local reef club websites. My local reef club has HOB overflows for sale all the time for like 20 bucks.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Kathyy thanks for the reference
yes a larger diameter pipe be quite. kinda of like a slight trickle noise
it also reduces co2 loss vs smaller diameter pipe. it comes down to how much flow ur loooking to push through the overflow as to what size pipe you iwll need..


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## NWA-Planted (Aug 27, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Kathyy thanks for the reference
> yes a larger diameter pipe be quite. kinda of like a slight trickle noise
> it also reduces co2 loss vs smaller diameter pipe. it comes down to how much flow ur loooking to push through the overflow as to what size pipe you iwll need..


* whispers quietly somewhere from behind*

"Go full siphon..."

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

NWA-Planted said:


> * whispers quietly somewhere from behind*
> 
> "Go full siphon..."
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


it is true, that is quieter... but i only have one drain to keep up with 

for the record. i do have a herbie on my shrimp tank. i don't say they dont work


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## colin (Jul 2, 2013)

I had another question. If I drill a small hole in my return line, close to the pump but below the normal water line, will that help keel the pump from running dry in the case of an overflow blockage? Will the hols interfere with the pump returning water to the tank if they are above the waterline?


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## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

just my experience but....

I have a sump for my 75gallon tank, I would say mod planted with 25 rainbow fish. I feed flakes 2-4 times a day, whiteworms or brine shrimp 1 x a day. my sump has 1- 4" coarse poret foam sheet, 1- 2" fine poret foam sheet, the foam filter that came with the return pump and some wasted purigen(wasted because I think I get very little flow through it) and a mag 5.0.

I could have 10 sheets of poret foam and bio rings and bio-balls and what not, but all that is really just wasted. This works fine and simple. No baffles needed and probably 
5X cheaper in the long run. 

As far a nitrates I would just say more plants growing better in your tank should fix that. If it doesn't then try to figure out why and address that. If you are set on the refugium idea then make your sump able to grow terrestrial plants they are better at nitrate removal.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

or have floaters for a refugium. they are easy to grow and don't have any specific co2 needs..

collin. it will not keep ur pump frm running dry.. but a properly sized sump will
a sump should hold 10% of the total tank volume.. this allows for drain blockage and pump shutoff


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