# 16' x 4' planted tank... New Pictures on Page 16...dinner plate discus!



## savagekabbage

Wow, that's insane. Where did you get the tank from? Good luck with the project!


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## toofazt

Wow, is it yours? :fish:


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## yoink

How much is the loan for the substrate?


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## endparenthesis

"heavily planted"... yeah I'd say so.


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## ianiwane

haha, how many bags are you going to need for that tank? I am estimating like 50. Lets have a contest, haha


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## Betowess

90 gallon tank = 180lbs substrate. 2000 gallon tank would use ~ 2 tons of substrate. Just my guess.


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## ianiwane

ADA is a little different though, it is lighter than other substrates. Just calculated it out haha, my guess was pretty acurate. He needs right about 50 bags for 3 inches of substrate. Each bag of AS weighs 20 pounds so about 1000 pounds of substrate. (16x12)x(4x12)=9216 sq inches x 3 inches = 27648 cu inches x 0.016387064 (liters in a cu inch) = 453.069545472 liters / 9L (each bag of AS contains 9L) = 50.341060608 bags

a good 1300 dollars in substrate before shipping.


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## Betowess

Man, this thread is gonna rock!


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## whitepine

I was contracted to help design and set up the scape on the tank.... so it is not mine but belongs to a local business. We ordered 50 bags of ada along with an extra ton of sand for a base layer and unplanted areas. I will start posting pictures this weekend.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## chenaus

cool tank bro


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## BSS

Now, THAT'S a project! So, you gonna put in lots of fast growers so you have to prune it weekly, so you can turn it into an extra source of income ? Oh, and then you could harvest the trimmings....

Sorry, let my mind go a bit wild there!

Keep us informed. This one should be fun to watch develop.
Brian.


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## conduct

whitepine said:


> I was contracted to help design and set up the scape on the tank.... so it is not mine but belongs to a local business. We ordered 50 bags of ada along with an extra ton of sand for a base layer and unplanted areas. I will start posting pictures this weekend.


So are we talking a unlimited supply of cash? This thread is going to rock I am becoming a subscriber. :eek5:


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## Sequence

Thats going to weigh about 9-10 metric tons when its finished.

That really is insane!

/subscribes


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## Brex

Awesome. I can't wait to see this tank develop. It'll be really nice to see a big tank like this run as a FW planted and not as a SW reef for a change.


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## fresh_lynny

This is a great thread in the works. It is refreshing to see that a business tank at such size and magnatude will be planted and not a reef tank. I tried explaining to people that a planted tank can be every bit as interesting and aesthetic as a reef, but until they see it, it is a hard sell. Can't wait to see this baby in the works~ good luck!


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## TheOtherGeoff

this is gonna be sweet


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## BlueRam

NICE! Ping if you need some plants as my tanks are always to the gills.


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## TINNGG

(drool) I need a bigger house. Altums, discus.... oh my.....


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## Ransom

To plant that tank, I hope you have some really long tongs and you're really good with them. Or maybe just get in and snorkel. Or maybe they could lower you on wires from the ceiling like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible!!!


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## Betowess

ianiwane said:


> haha, how many bags are you going to need for that tank? I am estimating like 50. Lets have a contest, haha


I win Ian, sort of. He said two tons total...haha


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## JustOneMore21

Wow...that is a huge tank. It will look great when finished, I'm sure.

Hmm...my uncle has a small business...wonder if I could talk him into putting in a 16' fish tank...he could afford it.


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## ianiwane

That is true, haha. With all that the substrate is probably gonna be closer to 4.5 inches.




Betowess said:


> I win Ian, sort of. He said two tons total...haha


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## mrbelvedere

What sort of business is it?

That's my only relevant question......other than that.....WOW!!

The possibilities.........


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## mr.gaboozlebag

OMG! That is bigger than my pond.


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## whitepine

It's a Bar/night club. I will post more pictures and info starting this weekend. This is the second tank to go in there... the first one blew a seam after the first of the year... and needed to be replaced. It was heavily planted before, but the owner wanted a new look and feel. He contacted me to help set it up and scape it. What's cool is I Actually bought plants from some members here such as gw11ucb to help support Summer program at UC Berkeley! helping to pass on the green!

Cheers, Whitepine


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## BlueRam

Is this the one downtown? It blew a seam! Sounds like it will be a good farm tank. Put in a leaf pull out a bucket.


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## KevinC

whitepine said:


> It's a Bar/night club.
> Cheers, Whitepine


Great - you can plumb into the house CO2 line (soda) instead of using a separate tank!

I'll be a pessimist for a second - imagine the cost for an Excel overdose treatment for BBA! Better keep the CO2 up!

Kevin


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## BigB

haha thats my dream tank im getting when i get a house. its goin to go smack dab in the middle of my living room. Except im using Big ass rocks as substrate and only a little bit of gravel and good soil where i want certain plants ahha


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## fresh_lynny

BigB said:


> haha thats my dream tank im getting when i get a house. its goin to go smack dab in the middle of my living room. Except im using Big ass rocks as substrate and only a little bit of gravel and good soil where i want certain plants ahha


Ass rocks? lol kidding


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## Silent Running

Is that the tank from the Triple Door? I was there not too long ago and noticed that the area where it used to be is now covered by curtains. Sweet tank!


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## DiabloCanine

What type of south americans are going in the tank and what temp will it be? That will be an awesome place to camp out with a cool beverage.....DC


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## csf

3" of substrate isn't a whole lot on a 4' tall tank... but a couple tons of ADA and sand and you should be okay.

I'm exhausted just thinking about planting it.


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## EoS

In a nightclub? So there's a chance they'll stock it with a mermaid? :icon_eek:


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## shuks

wow I've never heard of someone attemting to setup a high tech 2000 gallon tank. I estimate that it will coast 40,000 dollers to setup a tank that size! thats ALOT of money! 

Your going to need insane amounts of light. Your electric bill will probably increas by hundreds of dollers a month. Plus your going to have to buy scuba diving equipment to trim and plant your aquadic plants. I cant even emagin how much your going to spend on sub-strate 

It's funny that the rest of us measure our filters by gallons per hour. You measure your filter by horsepower; I found that really funny. You know right ther that it must be one hell of a big tank. 

To inject co2 in a tank that big your going to need like 3 or 4, one hundred pound co2 tanks, with multiple needle valves. I hope you're filthy rich

I think it would be way more cost effective if you went low tech on this tank. I dont even know if a high tech planted tank that is 2000 gallons is even possible. I've heard other people who want to make HUGE planted tanks in there buisness, but after they found out how much it costs and the problems of having a HUGE planted tank, they uasily change there mined. 

Just to fertilize that tank will eat up the whole worlds supply of inoganic fertilizers. Greg Wattson is gonna love you!

If you went low tech, this would be a much more practical idea. Dont need co2, dont need nearly as much light, and you wont have to go scuba diving to trim your plants as often. Ammano's tank is somwhere around 2000 gallons, and he has a beautifull low tech planted tank that doesnt cost an arm and a leg to run. Depending on the placement of the tank, you migh even want to consider using sunlight filtered though special glass.


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## j_chicago

Since this is going into a night club I don't think the filtered sunlight would work. And whitepine is not paying for it out of pocket, the business is. That means tax write-off. And if I read earlier correctly, they already had a tank set-up in the same spot, whitepine is a luck man to have that kind of room to play with and backing to do it.


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## whitepine

This is the second Hi light tank to go in. The first one was running for over two years with a few problems. It has 8 metal halide lights over the tank, 6 96 watt cf for less intense lighting and it's own pump room. a 100 gallon quarantine tank also lives in the pump room.


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## Betowess

A successful major market bar can easily afford a high light tank. A lot of bars will easily pull 10-15K gross or more in a single night. And maybe they will run it quazi high/mid light to keep the maintenance issue a bit less. A definate attraction for a night spot! Two:thumbsup: :thumbsup: way up!. I'm definately going to go check this out myself since I'm only 80 miles north. Maybe Blue Ram can call a club meeting there... Bottoms Up! LOL


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## mrbelvedere

I think that the bigger the tank it will be easier to maintain. I'm sure that most everything will be nearly automated. Ferts, lighting, CO2, water changes, feeding, etc, will all be automatic with that kind of budget, right? As for trimming, I am sure trimming would take an hour at most once every couple weeks. These are bar patrons, not scutinizing hobbyists. Maybe a huge field of grass, like dwarf hairgrass, no hardscape, and a giant school of fish? I think that would look sooooo cool to a bunch of drunken revelers at a bar, or to anyone in general. I would drink there.


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## shuks

> I think that the bigger the tank it will be easier to maintain.


that is deffinatly the most rediculos thing I've ever heard. But anyways, I'm not saying its absolutly impossible, just impractical. I still dont know how co2 is going to be injected in that big of a tank? I've never heard of using pressurised co2 on anything bigger than a couple hundred gallons (not saying its imposible, just not practical). Anything can be done if you have the money, but even a club thats just starting out, 40,000$ is still a big budget for a fish tank. Alot of clubs starting out dont even make it, and the ones that do dont start breaking even for a couple years. I doubt you'll get expense written off in your taxes, but maybe I'm wrong. 

Again, it not like it cant be done, but its gonna be ALOT of work and money.
I cant even comprehend how you are gona prun and plant everything all the time. Scuba gear?


> A successful major market bar can easily afford a high light tank. A lot of bars will easily pull 10-15K gross or more in a single night.


It's not like you start pulling in 15-20 k a night as soon as you open your club. The few percent of clubs that do make that kind-of cash wont start making money for a couple years. If you gonna make an investment like that, you want to make sure your club is even successfull first. 

A low light non co2 injected tank can look just as beautifull if you have a good aquascaper IMO. It would be much more practical and cost maybe 1/10 of the price.

PS: It's gonna be a BI*CH if you start batteling algae! Low light tank would be much more stable with little to no algae outbreaks if you know what your dooing


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## whitepine

The Bar has been running for quite few years. It is actually a divider for the bar and the entrace for a music theater. This is the second tank to go into the bar. The first one was successfully run for over two years with the same lighting system before a seam started to leak... and needed to be repaired or replaced... the owner chose to replace the whole system.

I guess you have never seen Takashi Amano's "Nature Aquarium World" book 3. He has tanks that are upto 18 feet in length! He also runs pressurized co2 on these tanks.

The tank is only 4' deep... add substrate and a very long planting tongs along with a wet arm and it's not that hard to plant. Most of the planting is done before you actually fill the tank... incase you have not done it this way in your own tanks... it makes planting quite easy. But in this case I am standing in the tank with bare feet!

Again... this is the second tank to go in. and yes, we all have algea in our tanks if you want to believe it or not. That's what 300 Ottos are for! It's pretty cool to see a large shoal swim by.


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## shuks

If you really want to do it that bad, go for it. The sky is the limit if you got the cash. Like I've been saying all along, it's not impossible. I'm just makin sure you knew what you were gettin into. good luck!

What exactly are your plans on injecting co2, and fertilizing macros and micros? 

I hope your praying to the algae gods every night. You dont want to piss them off


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## Rex Grigg

shucks,

Put down the crack pipe. It's not a new club. The club has been running for at least two years. That much can be inferred from the current posts. And since the club owner is funding this project I'm pretty sure that they have the money. I will make it plain for you. It's not whitepine's tank. It's a tank he is being paid to create. If you can't handle that then please just shut up. I can't believe that after reading this thread you think that this is some sort of "my tank is bigger than your tank" thing. This is a commercial enterprise. WP is being paid to do this. That's called a "job". You should try it some day. Working for money that is.

As for the CO2 injection. Not that hard. Since it's a club it most likely has either a bulk CO2 tank of over 100 pounds or runs it's taps off of 50 lb cylinders. Injecting CO2 into a tank that size is not that hard. It's all a matter of scale.



> A low light non co2 injected tank can look just as beautifull if you have a good aquascaper IMO. It would be much more practical and cost maybe 1/10 of the price.


It really sounds like you are jealous. The club owner knows what they want. They know how much it's going to cost. It doesn't bother them.



> PS: It's gonna be a BI*CH if you start batteling algae! Low light tank would be much more stable with little to no algae outbreaks if you know what your dooing


I see you still have not found out how to use a spell checker. Using a spell checker is easier than battling algae in any light tank. So why not try the baby steps first? And if done correctly there is little chance of any large algae outbreaks on this tank. It's all a matter of balance.


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## Canoe2Can

Rex Grigg said:


> shucks,
> 
> Put down the crack pipe. It's not a new club. The club has been running for at least two years. That much can be inferred from the current posts. And since the club owner is funding this project I'm pretty sure that they have the money. I will make it plain for you. It's not whitepine's tank. It's a tank he is being paid to create. If you can't handle that then please just shut up. I can't believe that after reading this thread you think that this is some sort of "my tank is bigger than your tank" thing. This is a commercial enterprise. WP is being paid to do this. That's called a "job". You should try it some day. Working for money that is.
> 
> I see you still have not found out how to use a spell checker. Using a spell checker is easier than battling algae in any light tank. So why not try the baby steps first? And if done correctly there is little chance of any large algae outbreaks on this tank. It's all a matter of balance.


Thanks. I really appreciated that, as I appreciate most Rex Grigg posts. 

Yet one more example of people posting without bothering to read the thread.

Whitepine,
Congrats on getting hold of a great project like this. I am seriously looking forward to seeing the end results. Maybe if I ever get to Seattle I'll check it out in person (2 problems: 1. I'll probably never make it to Seattle again and 2. If I do I'll probably never make it to a nightclub!) 

All I can say is I'll put in my vote right now for a school of about 4000 cardinal tetras swimming through a forest of giant swords! :smile:


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## heavyD

*16 x 4*

Wow, seeing someone IN THEIR TANK to carve out the substrate is an awe inspiring sight. It also looks like you took down 3-4 trees for the driftwood display. The wood looks high end specialty expensive, all of the above. What kind of driftwod are you using. They look like burl roots of some kind? I bought slabs of buckeye burl wood from a wood vendor down near Coos Bay in Oregon once for a table and I was just blown away by all of the exotic woods available in the northwest. I don't think the Buckeye was native to the area though. This is already a classic thread. It goes from excitement over the Mother of all Tanks going up, to confusion over the who, what, when and where, and then out of right field, Rex saves the thread with the crack pipe ding! Now that the moment of tension is over we can move on to the serious work of watching this monster come to life. Reading through this thread front to back has already enriched my day. I needed to laugh in a big way. Thanks


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## Y0uH0

this is awesome,i have not gotten the chance to read amano's nature aquarium book 3 but i sure bet that this thread is gonna be one fantastic thing to follow up upon. Whitepine,try to be as detailed along the way as you can,it will be really cool to follow through on this enormous project that you have been tasked to handle. Nevermind the expenses..I am excited to see the processes and the end product. All the best=)


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## fresh_lynny

Rex Grigg said:


> shucks,
> 
> Put down the crack pipe. It's not a new club. The club has been running for at least two years. That much can be inferred from the current posts. And since the club owner is funding this project I'm pretty sure that they have the money. I will make it plain for you. It's not whitepine's tank. It's a tank he is being paid to create. If you can't handle that then please just shut up. I can't believe that after reading this thread you think that this is some sort of "my tank is bigger than your tank" thing. This is a commercial enterprise. WP is being paid to do this. That's called a "job". You should try it some day. Working for money that is.
> 
> As for the CO2 injection. Not that hard. Since it's a club it most likely has either a bulk CO2 tank of over 100 pounds or runs it's taps off of 50 lb cylinders. Injecting CO2 into a tank that size is not that hard. It's all a matter of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> It really sounds like you are jealous. The club owner knows what they want. They know how much it's going to cost. It doesn't bother them.
> 
> 
> 
> I see you still have not found out how to use a spell checker. Using a spell checker is easier than battling algae in any light tank. So why not try the baby steps first? And if done correctly there is little chance of any large algae outbreaks on this tank. It's all a matter of balance.





lol can I put this whole response on my Rex Grigg favorite quote thread?


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## RoseHawke

Sic 'im Rex! I too, get rather frustrated with folks who either don't read the thread before replying, or have no comprehension of what they've read.

The mind boggles at this tank, though. The thing _I'm_ wondering about is what the heck kind of a floor is under that much weight? Concrete of course since it's a commercial building, but how thick? Six inches? Whoof! That's a lot of weight even on 'crete. What kind of effect will that much weight have on a concrete floor that isn't specifically designed for it I wonder?

edited to add: In thinking about it a bit further however, I suppose it would be no heavier than some machinery in industrial venues. One would hope that when the buildings are designed they use a "worst case" scenario taking into account the possibility of extremely heavy weight being put on the floor at some future time.


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## slickwillislim

Wow I cant beleive how massive that tank is. That thing has a stronger pump than my pool. Filter wise are they going with a big DE filter or what. I think this is a great thing for the hobby. If this ends up looking good I think more businesses may become interested in large planted tanks. Thanks for posting this. 

Put down the crack pipe. HA my dad says that all the time. 

I am definetly subscribing to this.


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## Betowess

I'm probably premature in these questions. Does this tank run up almost to the ceiling? How do you get into it. I was trying to figure out how the lights were hung etc. and can't quite figure it out from the photos. I don't see a ladder in the pictures. Do you have a maintenance contract on this behemoth? Because if you do, I'll come down some Sunday morning and help you with my bloody mary in hand...LOL


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## Nightshop

The thought of being paid to maintain and construct the aquascape for this tank is better than having to pay for it, hah!


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## shuks

> Put down the crack pipe. It's not a new club. The club has been running for at least two years. That much can be inferred from the current posts. And since the club owner is funding this project I'm pretty sure that they have the money. I will make it plain for you. It's not whitepine's tank. It's a tank he is being paid to create. If you can't handle that then please just shut up. I can't believe that after reading this thread you think that this is some sort of "my tank is bigger than your tank" thing. This is a commercial enterprise. WP is being paid to do this. That's called a "job". You should try it some day. Working for money that is.
> 
> As for the CO2 injection. Not that hard. Since it's a club it most likely has either a bulk CO2 tank of over 100 pounds or runs it's taps off of 50 lb cylinders. Injecting CO2 into a tank that size is not that hard. It's all a matter of scale.
> 
> 
> 
> It really sounds like you are jealous. The club owner knows what they want. They know how much it's going to cost. It doesn't bother them.
> 
> I see you still have not found out how to use a spell checker. Using a spell checker is easier than battling algae in any light tank. So why not try the baby steps first? And if done correctly there is little chance of any large algae outbreaks on this tank. It's all a matter of balance.


Dude, rex, take the heroine needle out of your arm! I know that this project is being paid for by the companie, I was just trying to suggest an easer, more practical idea. Whatever way whitepine decides to go dont matter to me. I was just trying to let him know that this is no simple project, and if it were me I would deffinitly go low tech. 

It sems like no one sees the problems that could potentialy happin. Yes its possible, but not very practical. 

When I started reading this thread, no-one pointed out the obvious problems that you could run into, so I did. Dont hate the playa, hate da game!!!


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## Momotaro

Ok, ok, ok! Fellas! You are even on the name calling and the drug references! Ok? 

This is a pretty cool and darn interesting thread. I'd hate to have to close it, and with all the quotes it is going to be a pain to edit and still make sense. So, if everyone agrees to be good....we can continue from here!  

Mike


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## Reefcrack

*Wow!*

These posts are supposed to be fun! Lighten up!
This little project is approaching 300 pounds per square foot! And, that is assuming distributing the weight equally on a 16'x4' footprint. OUCH.
As a point of reference, typically the second floor in your home is designed for 100 pounds per square foot. Glad this is a commercial site. Remember, this is supposed to be fun.


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## BlueRam

We have already done it once. The owner was kind enough to give a tour including the pump room downstairs. The tanks is litterally built into the quake structure. Quite the tank with a school of Ottos etc. I am glad to hear that WhitePine is in charge now. Looking back, the tank did not have much of a planned aquascape. Still, it was neat to see full sized crypts!



Betowess said:


> Maybe Blue Ram can call a club meeting there... Bottoms Up! LOL


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## Canoe2Can

ROTFLMAO!!!

I just realized there were some new photos on the first page. When I saw the first photo of the empty tank the other day, I knew it was big, but I just didn't realize how big. Seeing the fellow walking around inside the tank really brought that into focus!!!

One question, Whitepine: Is this a glass or acrylic tank? I sort of assumed acrylic from the size, but then in the close up photos it looked more like glass. One more question: How in the world did it get in there???


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## whitepine

Acrylic of course... it like 3" thick. The tank was brought in in a flat bed and moved on a fork lift into place. The stand is actually a 3 ft concrete slab that is engineered to support 60,000 lbs! I think the tank fill and planted weighs around 24,000 lbs. Kind of Crazy. 



Betowess said:


> I'm probably premature in these questions. Does this tank run up almost to the ceiling? How do you get into it. I was trying to figure out how the lights were hung etc. and can't quite figure it out from the photos. I don't see a ladder in the pictures. Do you have a maintenance contract on this behemoth? Because if you do, I'll come down some Sunday morning and help you with my bloody mary in hand...LOL


The tank has built in enclosure with sliding doors on all sides to access the tank. They door actually cover a lot of the tank and make access pretty easy. On the back side or the West side of the tank is where you crawl in. Their is about 3 to 3 /12 feet of clearance above the tank. I will get some pictures of this for you. and pictures of the lights.... and the pump room.

I will post more planting pictures later this weekend or early in the week ... so stay tuned! :thumbsup:


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## RoseHawke

whitepine said:


> "Acrylic of course... it like 3" thick. . . . "


Geez :eek5: ! That sounds almost like a commercial Oceanarium (or Aquarium, whatever they want to call 'em.) 

Man, why does this have to be on the other side of the country _*sigh*_. . . ?


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## bastalker

whitepine said:


> The stand is actually a 3 ft concrete slab that is engineered to support 60,000 lbs! I think the tank fill and planted weighs around 24,000 lbs.


It would be an honor to build a nice mahagany stand for this project.It would be easy to hide the 5 lb co2, regulator, 20' of tubing, an DIY reactor!!:hihi: 

If you need any clippings, let me know for sure!!:biggrin: :wink: 

Put a top on the tank, an let the Coyote Ugly girls dance "The devil goes down to Georgia" on it. Maybe about 8 of em!!!


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## 2wheelsx2

This project looks like an awesome undertaking. I guess with a tank that size, the auto dosing makes sense. Would the autodosing have to be liquid? Or would you dose dry? With that much ferts, wouldn't solubility be a problem, when it all goes in at once. Oh wait, this thing has a sump, so I guess it goes in the sump so you don't see anything?

I have so many questions because this is like a dream tank for anyone. I'll guess you'll answer in due time. Thanks for documenting this for us.


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## Rex Grigg

[edited: Rex, stop the thread crapping. Thanks.]


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## bastalker

[edited]

What was the point of that? 

It doesn't need to be in this thread!!!

Pm him an tell him ta meet ya in the off topic forum!!:icon_roll


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## donaldbyrd

Whitepine do you have any pictures of the first tank?


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## tundragirl

RoseHawke said:


> Man, why does this have to be on the other side of the country _*sigh*_. . . ?


I've got two words for you RoseHawke ROAD TRIP!! Boy am I tempted to plan my next vacation.:icon_roll 

WP Please post lots of in progress pic's. You must be the luckiest man alive:icon_eek: to actually get paid for something I'd probably do for free, LOL.:icon_roll


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## snafu

whitepine, i'd be interested in getting the address of the place to check out the tank after its established. seattle/kent/etc are places i frequently go to for business. thanks.
-snafu


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## plantbrain

Congrats Whitepine,
I have a monster tank I'm doing in in LA I just checked the job site out for yesterday. 12x4x4.

Acrylic is the way to go with larger tanks. Reef and Public aquaria folks know this well. Did you get a seamless 16' panel?
They where much more $$$ than the 12's.

I'm heading to Florida next week to get the wood/Plant Fest.
Finding scaping materials is tough on large tanks. 

Seems like the owner is very into it, that is *always* a good thing.
Some let their tanks go after the tank grows in and the look is lost.
Attentative owners make the best tanks over time and then all the word you did reflects in the finished product. That's awlays a good thing!

Why didn't they use a black back?
The overflows can have cork panels glued to them and ferns etc attach to hide things if that is a large concern. I've done this for many years and the effect is quite nice. 

Look forward to seeing the tank being planted.
Gotta to move quick once the plants come in and then fill and then see and recheck everything 12 x beyond 30-36" you have top plant inside the tank and to work on the tank, you need to do large water changes to prune since it's beyond anyone's arm length. But plant choice and things that you do not have prune much is the only way when it gets this big and deep.

It's a tiring process on larger scaled tanks. So many plants.:icon_eek: 
How high is the tank off the ground on the stand?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## fshfanatic

That is just awesome! What I could do with that tank!


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## whitepine

Thanks for the congrats Tom. The tank is not a seamless 16'.... it has a seam at 8'. It really is not that obvious unless you are at an angle and really looking for it. Getting plants has been a chore.... One of the investors actually owns an import/pet supply company. I just tell him what plants I want and what fish... and they magically appear.... well not quite. I ask for plants on his list and then they try and get them. I still need about half the plants I wanted to go with. And trying to get quantities of rare plants is pretty hard!

The owner is totally into it! He has a background in fisheries and used to work in the aquarium trade as a young man. He know what he wants... and if very understanting of the work and upkeep on the tank. I love working down there.. and when I get done it's "Miller Time". Well not really, I ussually only drink Guiness. 

I will try and get some planting pictures posted later today or tomorrow.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## Reefcrack

Whitepine - you get to aquascape 2000 gallons AND have a Guiness?
OH LORD! Heaven is in the northwest. I knew it! Please tell me you are having a blast. I'm saluting you as I write this and look north with a Bud Light(sorry).


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## lumpyfunk

Great project, thanks for sharing it with us. For some reason I thought about cherry shrimp when reading about the algae, 300 ottos nothing imagine 250,000-400-000 shrimp. . . of course they would become snacks but. . .


----------



## Betowess

Well, too bad Boesmani rainbows aren't SA. A big school of them in that tank would be an amazing sight. Could you pretend they're SA? LOL


----------



## whitepine

Betowess said:


> Well, too bad Boesmani rainbows aren't SA. A big school of them in that tank would be an amazing sight. Could you pretend they're SA? LOL


He had a few Boesemani rainbows in the last tank.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

same with the red line barbs. those would be sweet in there. 

but i cant argue against someone planning i giant discus tank..you should go with wilds.


----------



## ianiwane

I agree with the red line barbs or aka roseline sharks. A large school would be cool. And since you can get fish at a wholesale price, you could probably get them for around 10 a piece. That is what wholesale is around here.


----------



## mrbelvedere

I vote for altums.


----------



## whitepine

I have added some more pictures and info on the first page in case you missed anything.... more info will come once it is completed.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## j_chicago

Truely amazing. I cant even guess how much this is costing. My girlfriend said I can get a bigger tank when I buy a house.... "hey hon...Can I see your Visa card real quick?"


----------



## Betowess

whitepine said:


> He had a few Boesemani rainbows in the last tank.


So one can only hope!


----------



## plantbrain

whitepine said:


> Thanks for the congrats Tom. The tank is not a seamless 16'.... it has a seam at 8'.


I think the seams are cool personally if done nicely.



> It really is not that obvious unless you are at an angle and really looking for it. Getting plants has been a chore.... One of the investors actually owns an import/pet supply company. I just tell him what plants I want and what fish... and they magically appear.... well not quite. I ask for plants on his list and then they try and get them. I still need about half the plants I wanted to go with. And trying to get quantities of rare plants is pretty hard!


Certainly, try and get large amoutns of narrow leaf java fern and Bolbitus.
Or clean Riccia etc.

This is the biggest issue and one that makes a huge difference in the initial stage of set up, things balance out much faster when you have more plants.

That is the biggest issue for new set ups in general.



> The owner is totally into it! He has a background in fisheries and used to work in the aquarium trade as a young man. He know what he wants... and if very understanting of the work and upkeep on the tank. I love working down there.. and when I get done it's "Miller Time". Well not really, I ussually only drink Guiness.
> 
> I will try and get some planting pictures posted later today or tomorrow.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


That's great you have a knowing client. They are much more understanding and not helpless.

That's a key thing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## csf

I think this could/would be a great high tech, mid-lighted tank set-up. Big swords, anubias, ferns and mosses mixed with higher growth plants to help with shading.

So you don't have to replant the WHOLE tank every couple of weeks, just some areas loaded up with some faster growing stems or rooted plants (vals, apons, etc.). (Of course, those areas will still be many times bigger than my tank!)

Very cool and can't wait to see it - though I'm sure the pictures won't near do it justice.

How much does a couple thousand neons go for?


----------



## Evergreen

Whitepine,

Thanks for taking the time to share this project with us! I know you must be a very busy person! I scanned through the thread and didn't find mention of what bar this is. I'm in your neck of the woods from time to time and would love to sit in front of this tank with a tall cool one!

Keith,


----------



## trckrunrmike

Wait...shouldn't the PS be covered on the front with AS?


----------



## Architect1

WOW


Its all I can say.


----------



## whitepine

trckrunrmike said:


> Wait...shouldn't the PS be covered on the front with AS?


The owner's wife doesn't like the look of the substrate after roots and what not start growning in the tank and showing up through the glass. He is planning on having the bottom of the tank covered with some type of trim so you don't really see the substrate.

I have added a link for all that keep asking. We are not yet done planting as of June 5th, 2006 and have plans to add more plants and fish. It has been a pain to get all the plants needed for this project. I will post more pictures of the planting in progress this week and keep you all updated. If you are in my neck of the woods, pm and I might be able to meet you down there for a cold one!

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## bpm2000

I remember reading about the leak - good to see you up on the new project. I'm so getting a drink or ten when its finished.


----------



## Y0uH0

A pity i am not living in the area or i would have definately made a trip down just to get a glimpse of the tank. Been to the link for the bar,i must say the bar on it's own is already a WOW and with a mega size planted tank inside,that will make it a double WOW. It is a pity that the link does not really offer a shot of the tank.


----------



## John P.

I've been there! Fun project!


----------



## whitepine

I have added a few planting pictures to the first page. I will try and get up the rest in the next day or two.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## fresh_lynny

awesome new pictures....plants love toe cheese...lol kidding.
The mere thought of a tank tht large, planted is mind boggling. I will be watching this one, for sure.


----------



## Y0uH0

Hmm from what i see from the pictures,won't you be disturbing the substrate quite abit as you walk around while doing your planting? Suddenly it struck me that from the picture that featured you planting,you do look like one of those farmers working in the padi fields, having to bend over like that.. Man is it gonna be very strainful on your back.


----------



## 2wheelsx2

Y0uH0 said:


> Hmm from what i see from the pictures,won't you be disturbing the substrate quite abit as you walk around while doing your planting? Suddenly it struck me that from the picture that featured you planting,you do look like one of those farmers working in the padi fields, having to bend over like that.. Man is it gonna be very strainful on your back.



Hahaha...that's what I was going to say too, rice farmer in a paddy in Thailand or something.


----------



## JenThePlantGeek

I want to hear more about it!


----------



## Burks

If I'm ever in WA I'll be sure to visit. That's an amazingly big tank and task to complete. It's always fun to watch a tank grow from empty to a thriving jungle.


----------



## deeplove

Rex Grigg said:


> Using a spell checker is easier than battling algae in any light tank. So why not try the baby steps first?


My cheeseburger almost came out my nose off of that. My stomach just hurts.

Great thread. I can't wait to see the results from this MASSIVE tank.


----------



## festus

whitepine said:


> The Bar has been running for quite few years. It is actually a divider for the bar and the entrace for a music theater......


Hope them fish can dance to the beat :eek5: what kind of music do fish prefer anyway ? Hiphop/techno/thrash metal/............. :eek5: 

Seriously way cool.


----------



## endparenthesis

Did you guys have to cushion the base of the tank or anything to keep the loud sound vibrations from causing problems? Or is the acrylic just so thick that it wouldn't make a difference?


----------



## BlueRam

The tank is in the bar (not nightclub) which separates it from the entrance to the venue. I think the venue has 3 doors...



endparenthesis said:


> Did you guys have to cushion the base of the tank or anything to keep the loud sound vibrations from causing problems? Or is the acrylic just so thick that it wouldn't make a difference?


----------



## stlouisan

*Location of this venue?*

Whitepine: Could you give the name and/or address of this venue? I'd love to keep this place in mind whenever I get to do some traveling. 

It looks like a LOT of work, but we all know it'll be nice in the end  Keep it up!


----------



## Youjin

The link to the bar is in the 1st posting of this thread from whitepine.

Here it is again.....Yes, we are all exicted. I can't wait for the chance to visit Seattle and go to this bar (downtown Seattle).

http://www.thetripledoor.net/default.aspx


----------



## bastalker

A couple dozen wild discus would settle in nice with a couple dozen altums...


----------



## magicmagni

Were does one find little people like this to work in their tanks? O wait the tank is 16 feet long!!!! LOL

This tank is beyond my comprehension. Monster tank for sure.


----------



## whitepine

I added a few more pictures to the first post. I will try and get down there this weekend to get some better ones of the tank and of the pump room.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## kzr750r1

Thanks for sharing. I may be in the area over the next few months. Now your giving me a place to have a beer and check out this beast. Your a lucky man.


----------



## stlouisan

Thanks Youjin. I knew I read about it somewhere, jsut thought it was my imagination.

Hey WhitePine, is this free national advertising for the bar? heehee


----------



## BlueRam

That was the first and second stocking choice in the original tank. Did not work.



bastalker said:


> A couple dozen wild discus would settle in nice with a couple dozen altums...


----------



## relaxing

BlueRam said:


> That was the first and second stocking choice in the original tank. Did not work.



What happened with the discus?? Is there a thread somewhere for the story of the original tank?

I'll be in Seattle late August, and I'll be sure to make the Musicquarium a stop now!


----------



## whitepine

He had both Altums and Discus in there at different times. The Discus got sick and died. The Altums started to look sick... fins rotting and very aggresive to there tank mates. I think one of the Altums actually died when a tankmate got stuck in its throat.

I will try and get down there on Saturday for some better pictures. I would do it today but my Wisdom teeth where pulled this am. Teethless(wisdom) in Seattle.

Cheers, Whitepine.


----------



## BlueRam

So now you might say that working in a 4' deep tank is better that pulling teeth. More pics are good. 



whitepine said:


> He had both Altums and Discus in there at different times. The Discus got sick and died. The Altums started to look sick... fins rotting and very aggresive to there tank mates. I think one of the Altums actually died when a tankmate got stuck in its throat.
> 
> I will try and get down there on Saturday for some better pictures. I would do it today but my Wisdom teeth where pulled this am. Teethless(wisdom) in Seattle.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine.


----------



## whitepine

I went down to the musicquarium to check on the tank this afternoon(forgot my camera). Looks like a minor outbreak of algea... brown diatom. I am still waiting on some plants... so tank is like half planted. I also talked with the owner... and the timer on the lights is not set correctly. Looks like I will have to go adjust the lighting as well. Will update later in the week.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## Architect1

I Love the tank I have been watching the pictures going up each week weighting for more and more. Its defiantly applicable to make that tank run. I think its easy. the scale is like 100 times bigger then are 100g tanks. but when it comes out to organizing, managing , and having the right does come out its more easy and cost effective because it’s a bigger numbers not decimal’s. 

It may be a huge tank and there may be a lot of cons about it. By the looks of it the owner wants to try something that most people fail at or don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. I think its cool failed or not. I wish all the best luck and I will be watching more of this amazing tank build.


----------



## lumpyfunk

2wheelsx2 said:


> Hahaha...that's what I was going to say too, rice farmer in a paddy in Thailand or something.



I was reading Unirdna's journal, and he appears qualified to help plant and trim:hihi: :biggrin: :hihi: :biggrin: :hihi: 
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/216836-post242.html


----------



## Y0uH0

lumpyfunk said:


> I was reading Unirdna's journal, and he appears qualified to help plant and trim:hihi: :biggrin: :hihi: :biggrin: :hihi:
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/216836-post242.html


lol,i get what you mean,such a pity that there isn't a place where i can do something like that in singapore or it will be really cool to dive into "nature"


----------



## whitepine

More Pictures....

Here's the Entrance, Canopy and Pump room.

First view of the tank when entering the Triple Door.


Canopy with one of the sliding doors open.


Interior of the canopy and the top of the tank.


looking South through the canopy.


Fresh water filters for the tank.


Rick giving us a view of the main tank filters!


First filter overflow.


Fluidized bed and overflow.


Bioball chamber and overflow.


2 hp pump and return lines.


Main controller cabinet.


Fert pump.



Northend of tank looking South.




I will try and get some final planting shots this week.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## fresh_lynny

wow, what machinery!
The tank is progressing well. Do you think you got the algae breakout because of the photoperiod and the fact that it isn't fully planted?


----------



## Y0uH0

wow,the machinery is really industrial type..like those you will find at oceanariums. but the layout looks good,will be looking forward to more of them.=)


----------



## kzr750r1

*Fert pump?*

Can you tell us who makes the fert pump and where can I get a couple?

I like the use of petrified wood. Probably looks better in person. I hope to get a chance to go up there since my company just finished an aquisition in Seattle.

Keep up the good work.

BTW: In all how many people/companies have collaborated on this endevor? 

It's a massive undetaking and impressive that the owner is willing to shell out this kind of money. This is just decoration and the maintence is skimming the proffits of he bar... In any case I hope the best for you all this thing is awsome.


----------



## AndyN

Wow, that is an amazing system.


----------



## BlueRam

The owner has quite the empire. Main is the place upstairs (wild ginger) followed by the amphitheater (triple door) with the tank as the center piece of the bar/lounge area. People go to the bar to see the tank. I would guess it was less busy with the tank down. So lets just call it money well spent. 



kzr750r1 said:


> It's a massive undetaking and impressive that the owner is willing to shell out this kind of money. This is just decoration and the maintence is skimming the proffits of he bar... In any case I hope the best for you all this thing is awsome.


----------



## turbowagon

page 8???

n00b settings. :hihi: 

Tank looks amazing... that is some serious equipment. Great job!


----------



## whitepine

Just got back from the Tank... cleaning up some algea and planting a few final plants. I will post some more pictures this next week of the tank. I will also find out who made the Auto doser and see where to get them.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## filipnoy85

That auto doser looks a lot like a surgical tool used in liposuctions. In the OR it pumps epinephrine through some tubing and a long needle to use as a vasoconstrictor. A medical supply company ought to have them, though I'm sure it's out a lot of people's budget.


----------



## BigB

filipnoy85 said:


> That auto doser looks a lot like a surgical tool used in liposuctions. In the OR it pumps epinephrine through some tubing and a long needle to use as a vasoconstrictor. A medical supply company ought to have them, though I'm sure it's out a lot of people's budget.



I have also seen them on cow milking machines. Its a very common type of device really:thumbsup:


----------



## kzr750r1

whitepine said:


> I will also find out who made the Auto doser and see where to get them.


Thanks for looking into it.


----------



## chinchek787

You have enough equipment to rival a reef!


----------



## heavyD

*dosing pump*

It's called a rotary peristaltic pump. The rotary mechanism gently pushes fluid through the system. They also come in another form called linear peristaltic. That is a mechanism that requires you to load the tubing into a chamber, you then close the door to the chamber for a tight fit and when you turn it on there are about 10 fingers that compress sequentially to move the fluid downstream. That is a more accurate form of delivery and is used in a number of medical institutions.


----------



## whitepine

We just added more fish. 300 Ottos and some other cool cats along with tetras and the like. We added like 1000 fish! I will post pictures later tonight.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## JenThePlantGeek

WOW - can't wait to see it!


----------



## Burks

whitepine said:


> We just added more fish. 300 Ottos and some other cool cats along with tetras and the like. We added like 1000 fish! I will post pictures later tonight.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


Haha. You added 300 Ottos when I had trouble just finding 3 Ottos!

Can't wait for the updated fish pictures. That's one heck of a setup you have helped create. If I ever win the lottery, I know who to call.


----------



## Picklefish

Looks awesome, I have a question about the filter in the pics on page 8. I have pretty much the exact same filter that I picked up from a Petshop going out of business. I have been unable to find out who manufactured it or anything about it. Can you point me in the right direction please. Thanks so much for any help I can get. Here is a pic of it in my soon to be fishroom.


----------



## Caterham

Long term that return pump is going to give you HUGE problems with the 90 elbow on the inlet side. Is space really limited at that spot?


----------



## whitepine

All the pipes are at least 2" or larger... I don't think it will be that big of an issue. That is also why there are maintenance contracts! 

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## jasonh

wow. just wow. Looks awesome. Wish I woulda known about that bar when I was up in Washington last September  

Oh well, the wife and I are going back in December...gonna have to make that a stop 

Congrats on getting the job for that tank and getting it set up...that's one hell of an accomlishment.... "Yeah, I set up a 2000 gallon tank for some bar in Seattle...no big deal really." Lol.


----------



## Betowess

I would love to see a picture of 300 schooling OTOS!! Might have to take a trip to the triple door soon.


----------



## daveonbass

do ottos school...and how many do you have to have to do that...I got like 10 and they're all over in a 75g?


----------



## jrmt07

My ottos never schooled until my kribs spawned and started chasing tankmates... now they swim everywhere together.


----------



## whitepine

*New pictures of the fish as promised..*

Here's some new pictures of the inhabitants. It's hard to get a good picture with all the lights and motion of the fish with out using a flash.

North looking South, petrified wood, lotus and fast growers.


close up of algea crew.


shoal of Brochis, leucomelas and ottos.


School of cardinal tetras.


South looking north.


Close up of blyx and Sturisoma. 



We are at least a month away form the first prunning. I am also hoping to add more plants in the near future.


Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## daveonbass

some of the cardinals look more like neons...just a technicalitly I know...and even with an almost bottomless budget...but still if you order cardinals you should get cardinals. But then again it could just be the flash or something. Please tell me it's the flash....


----------



## Canoe2Can

From my observations:
P. innesi usually has a partial blue stripe and a partial red stripe.
P. simulans usually has a full blue stripe and partial red stripe.
And P. axelrodi usually has a full blue and full red stripe.

That being said, I've seen some cardinals that have the silver on their bellies like some seem to in these photos. Using a flash would probably accentuate that. And since they have full blue stripes, I would say they're not neons. Possibly P. simulans, the "green neon." And heck, they're all pretty little fishies!

That being said, it looks nice in there. I'd love to see what it will look like when the plants grow in more.


----------



## RoseHawke

Wow :icon_eek: . It looks like a miniature version of a big commercial aquarium.

Miniature of course, is relative .


----------



## whitepine

daveonbass said:


> some of the cardinals look more like neons...just a technicalitly I know...and even with an almost bottomless budget...but still if you order cardinals you should get cardinals. But then again it could just be the flash or something. Please tell me it's the flash....


There are indeed Cardinals and Neons in there... Good eye..Most people don't know the difference. We couldn't get all cardinals so we ordered neons.


----------



## Architect1

Nice I love the schools of fish you have. I thought there would be more veg but I guess its easy that way because now your not swimming to trim an underwater forest lol. as much fun as that sounds. It be nice to see 200 discus swimming around, one of every type of discus.

Nice work hope to see some more pics soon.


----------



## RoseHawke

You know, given how hard cardinals are to find it's amazing that they're as cheap as they are when you do find them.


----------



## Canoe2Can

RoseHawke said:


> You know, given how hard cardinals are to find it's amazing that they're as cheap as they are when you do find them.


In my area, you used to be able to find neons and cardinals for $.99 each several years ago. Now you can occasionally find neons for that price, but usually $1.50-2.00. And cardinals, if you can find them at all, are almost always $2.50-3.50, and even more for captive bred ones that are almost impossible to find. That's a lot of money for one small fish with a short lifespan! Especially for one with a reputation for being hard to keep and harder to breed. 

What I think is funny about that is that they are supposed to be very easy to collect in the wild. From what I've read, the SA fish hunters just net them by the thousands in the dry season. I have a suspicion that with the new fascination with beautiful planted tanks and schools of briliantly colored fish, the demand has really gone up in recent years. 

I'm keeping an eye on crshadow's cardinal breeding project. That might be the most affordable way to get a sizable school.


----------



## daveonbass

Canoe2Can said:


> From my observations:
> P. innesi usually has a partial blue stripe and a partial red stripe.
> P. simulans usually has a full blue stripe and partial red stripe.
> And P. axelrodi usually has a full blue and full red stripe.


This may be a little skewed in my opinion. Neons and Cardinals are a lot more similar than P. simulans, which is called the dimond headed neon tetra or even the golden neon tetra. Neons and Cardinals have very BRIGHT colors, expecially the blue, which will not fade at night like the red. The only real difference is that the red is longer in the cardinals...though I will admit that the blue is a little longer in the cardinals too...but that's like splitting hairs. But the diamond headed is really pale and ugly...and also rarely seem (at least by me) in tanks. I think that for all intents and pourposes that it could almost always be assumed that the blue and reds are either neons or cardinals. And at $7.50 a piece, $6.50 for 50 or more (liveaquaria.com, in stock) I dought that anyone needing a school would ever actually buy them.

By the way does anyone think its funny that the Cardinal terta's name, P. axelrodi, makes it sound like it was named for the lead singer of Guns and Roses...?


----------



## plantbrain

You need like 5x that many plants.
The sooner you do that , the sooner the tank will run properly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## daveonbass

plantbrain said:


> You need like 5x that many plants.
> The sooner you do that , the sooner the tank will run properly.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


aestheticly too...I agree, more plants...but so far you seem to have it under control.


----------



## Canoe2Can

daveonbass said:


> This may be a little skewed in my opinion. Neons and Cardinals are a lot more similar than P. simulans, which is called the dimond headed neon tetra or even the golden neon tetra. Neons and Cardinals have very BRIGHT colors, expecially the blue, which will not fade at night like the red. The only real difference is that the red is longer in the cardinals...though I will admit that the blue is a little longer in the cardinals too...but that's like splitting hairs. But the diamond headed is really pale and ugly...and also rarely seem (at least by me) in tanks. I think that for all intents and pourposes that it could almost always be assumed that the blue and reds are either neons or cardinals. And at $7.50 a piece, $6.50 for 50 or more (liveaquaria.com, in stock) I dought that anyone needing a school would ever actually buy them.
> 
> By the way does anyone think its funny that the Cardinal terta's name, P. axelrodi, makes it sound like it was named for the lead singer of Guns and Roses...?


I don't think you know what you're talking about. P. simulans is not called a diamond headed neon or a golden neon. I understand that the "diamond headed neon" is a mutation from P. innesi. I think that's what the "golden neon" is too. But as always, confusion abounds when common names are used. Especially when mutations are sold as a different common name. 

P. simulans is a separate species. But it is very similar in appearance to P. axelrodi and P. innesi. It has a blue stripe running from it's eye to the base of its tail, and a red stripe about half the length of the fish. The colors of these are just as intense as cardinals or neons. The other difference is that P. simulans is smaller than the other two. Cardinals top out around 1.75 inches, and neons around 1.25 inches. Of the P. simulans I've had, none ever got much bigger than about .75 inches. 

You're right that they are rarely seen. I've only found one shop in my area that regularly carries them. But as for price, the online retailer you note is ridiculously overpriced. I got mine for the same price as neons in my area.

jsenske posted a picture of a tank with P. simulans in a thread on this page entitled "Wanna help a newb aquascape." A query on Google Images turned up multiple images of P. simulans as well, some of which were obviously incorrect (such as one that labeled a bleeding heart tetra as P. simulans- don't trust everything you see on the internet!)


----------



## Burks

Canoe2Can said:


> In my area, you used to be able to find neons and cardinals for $.99 each several years ago. Now you can occasionally find neons for that price, but usually $1.50-2.00. And cardinals, if you can find them at all, are almost always $2.50-3.50, and even more for captive bred ones that are almost impossible to find.


Neons are $1.99 around here unless Petco has them 5/$5. Cardinals I have only seen at Petsmart for something like $2.49 or $2.99, can't remember which. 

You're right, that's a lot of money. I only buy Neons when they are $1 each. 

Hope that large school turns out well. Will be interesting to watch them grow.


----------



## plantbrain

daveonbass said:


> aestheticly too...I agree, more plants...but so far you seem to have it under control.


{Shudder}, Imagine a 16x 4 x 4 ft tank not under control..................

You spend all this time, $$$, and then go all cheap on the plants...........
It does not make sense and is bad whether you have a 10,000gal or a 10 gal tank. 

A tank is always much better off, has less issues etc when you add lots of plants from the start.

This is a new tank still, things will go south and be problematic as time goes on. This will prevent that to large degree.
Spend the $ on some plants, a lot more.

Don't balme nutrients and all that stuff etc later.
CO2 and enough plants from day one will solve most issues folks have. 

This tank is no different and is much harder to get enough plants and mix CO2 well(It takes much longer to mix and get good CO2 throuout the tank when they get this size).

Adding Excel to prevent BBA and other algae is not a very good option, nor isd manually pruning.

Basically there is a huge need to focus on preventative maintanace at this scale.

The amount of CO2 demand with this amount of plants is very small, when you add 5-10x the biomass, the CO2 demand will much much stronger and that is when the CO2 issue will need to be addressed carefully. At that point is when many folks think it's nutrients causing algae, it's not, it's the CO2.



Regards, 
Tom Barr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## daveonbass

Canoe2Can said:


> I don't think you know what you're talking about. P. simulans is not called a diamond headed neon or a golden neon. I understand that the "diamond headed neon" is a mutation from P. innesi. I think that's what the "golden neon" is too. But as always, confusion abounds when common names are used. Especially when mutations are sold as a different common name.
> 
> P. simulans is a separate species. But it is very similar in appearance to P. axelrodi and P. innesi. It has a blue stripe running from it's eye to the base of its tail, and a red stripe about half the length of the fish. The colors of these are just as intense as cardinals or neons. The other difference is that P. simulans is smaller than the other two. Cardinals top out around 1.75 inches, and neons around 1.25 inches. Of the P. simulans I've had, none ever got much bigger than about .75 inches.
> 
> You're right that they are rarely seen. I've only found one shop in my area that regularly carries them. But as for price, the online retailer you note is ridiculously overpriced. I got mine for the same price as neons in my area.
> 
> jsenske posted a picture of a tank with P. simulans in a thread on this page entitled "Wanna help a newb aquascape." A query on Google Images turned up multiple images of P. simulans as well, some of which were obviously incorrect (such as one that labeled a bleeding heart tetra as P. simulans- don't trust everything you see on the internet!)


I'd like to admit that I had a bit of a brain fart here...I miss spoke as far as the scientific name...I miss labeled the fish...but I too searched google and came up with too many fish that were clearly either neons or cardinals...and were also mislabeled. But Still from what I have seen on the species...they are never as bright to me, compaired to the neons or cardinals. The only reason I pointed it out is because I only have cardinals...but when I compaire pictures of them and neons...the blue is the same length...that is to say...not quite to the tail. So I disagreed with the statement that "P. innesi usually has a partial blue stripe and a partial red stripe" cause then I would have to say that P. axlerodi only has a partial stripe, and I think we all would say it does not. But again I think I'm just splitting hairs.


----------



## whitepine

> plantbrainYou spend all this time, $$$, and then go all cheap on the plants...........
> It does not make sense and is bad whether you have a 10,000gal or a 10 gal tank.
> 
> A tank is always much better off, has less issues etc when you add lots of plants from the start.
> 
> This is a new tank still, things will go south and be problematic as time goes on. This will prevent that to large degree.
> Spend the $ on some plants, a lot more.
> 
> Don't balme nutrients and all that stuff etc later.
> CO2 and enough plants from day one will solve most issues folks have.
> 
> This tank is no different and is much harder to get enough plants and mix CO2 well(It takes much longer to mix and get good CO2 throuout the tank when they get this size).
> 
> Adding Excel to prevent BBA and other algae is not a very good option, nor isd manually pruning.
> 
> Basically there is a huge need to focus on preventative maintanace at this scale.
> 
> The amount of CO2 demand with this amount of plants is very small, when you add 5-10x the biomass, the CO2 demand will much much stronger and that is when the CO2 issue will need to be addressed carefully. At that point is when many folks think it's nutrients causing algae, it's not, it's the CO2.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Tom,

I totally agree.... I am trying to convince the owner to add more plants. I will show him your post and see if that will help. Thanks for the posts.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## fresh_lynny

man I agree...I have to say, I think I have more plants in my 90 gal. This is an area that the owner cannot skimp on, or he will have one hell of an algal bloom on his hands, and that is not good for business!


----------



## magicmagni

I've followed this tank for a while very excited to see how this turns out. You were off to such a good start, but now I am really disappointed with the plant layout if I'm being honest. I have to echo what has been said. If he doesn't put more plants in there I think that he might as well have done a fish only tank with plastic plants. It's really sad, because you have gone the distance with this thing only to stop before the end. If he needs more motivation pull any of the pics from Nature Aquarium World. Some of those tanks were pretty big too and all were planted much more then yours. If he still does not want to go that route then I would go low tech/ no Co2. Definitely much easier to maintain in the long run and probably the average person wouldn't know the difference.


----------



## TheOtherGeoff

have you tried buying plants wholesale from a dealer? i have the name of one in NY who might be able to help you out if you need a TON of plants for a good price. foir 300 bucks we filled up 2 3x12 troffs of plants and got some really nice and semi exotics too.


----------



## fresh_lynny

TheOtherGeoff said:


> have you tried buying plants wholesale from a dealer? i have the name of one in NY who might be able to help you out if you need a TON of plants for a good price. foir 300 bucks we filled up 2 3x12 troffs of plants and got some really nice and semi exotics too.


Geoff, can you tell me who that is? I have a friend that would be very interested, as he is trying to open a new FS


----------



## jsenske

Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords!! ...and some crypts too. 

With due respect, bro-- you are really asking for it with that plant selection. Please feel free to call me for some free consultation. I can hook you up with wholsale plants and the kind of scape that people will love and and maintenance will be very manageable. What you have now is a time-bomb ticking, IMO, and I have done a few of these myself.


----------



## Momotaro

> Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords!!


AH! Finally!

That is my "mental mantra" as well! Whenever I see a large aquarium, I think Swords, Swords, Swords!

With so many varieties, sizes and colors available, sword plants have to be _the _ choice for a large aquarium. Easy to grow and easy to maintain. They are the way to go!

I am thinking about completely redoing my 75G and going with small Swords and Anubias too!

Mike


----------



## whitepine

jsenske said:


> Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords, Anubias and Swords!! ...and some crypts too.


 It's funny you say that... There are at least 9 ozolot swords ( 3 of which are really large)in there with at lest 5 large kleiner bars. There was also a ton of anubias but it didn't do to well... as there was a problem with the main pump and heat build up in the tank. The tank temp was in the mid to upper 80's for the first week after the first planting, needless to say some of the plants didn't make it. I will post more pictures after the forth. It will have way more plants by then. 

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## BSS

Thanks for keeping us updated, WP. Great thread!


----------



## whitepine

*Here's new pic as promised...*



Plants hitting the surface, waitng to get pruned.






Riccia carpet coming long.... right after this shot, the riccia was thinned out and tied to more slate. The background is now totally covered with riccia carpet too!




Just so you get an idea of scale, this side if the tank is 4 feet by 4 feet. The swords are almost 3 feet high along with the aromatica. The forground plants are blyxa japonica and sunset hygro(this will be replanted next month).

First actual prunning will happen in about 2 weeks. At the end of the month more moss, anubias and ferns will go in.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## fshfanatic

shuks said:


> wow I've never heard of someone attemting to setup a high tech 2000 gallon tank. I estimate that it will coast 40,000 dollers to setup a tank that size! thats ALOT of money! .


It is also a sweet tax right off..


----------



## filipnoy85

Wow... beautiful, just beautiful!


----------



## Architect1

I have been waiting for some new Pics Vary nice. Is the whole system under control and working 120%?


----------



## banderbe

have you considered the possibility that you may be completely insane?


----------



## Burks

That Riccia carpet is lovely! Now I really want to start mine up.


----------



## Nightshop

I had my doubts in the beginning but man it's coming along nicely!


----------



## whitepine

Architect1 said:


> I have been waiting for some new Pics Vary nice. Is the whole system under control and working 120%?


I don't think you can ever have a system like this 120% under control. I stopped by today to add to the riccia carpet and the co2 bottle was empty :icon_sad: It seems that the co2 line has a slow leak somewhere.... what is cool is that I don't have to find it... he has a maintance guy on site that will find and fix it! He also has staff that change out the bottles, vaccums and scrapes the tank on a weekly basis:thumbsup: I think it will be a few more months until we have all the bugs worked out, the staff all inline and the tank Looking good Willis.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## plantbrain

whitepine said:


> Tom,
> 
> I totally agree.... I am trying to convince the owner to add more plants. I will show him your post and see if that will help. Thanks for the posts.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine



Sometimes folks need to see it from someone else.
Owner and the things you would do are often at odds
But it's their tank but they also need to realize that this will look better, be easier in the longer term for them.

Think about it like this:

If you want a nice deep forest and you want it fairly quick, do you only plant a few trees?

No!!!!

What happens if you only plant a few trees(aquatic plants)?
You get weeds!!!(algae)

The weeds will move in and take over much faster than the trees.

Same thing with Aquatic plants and algae, takes longer for them to establish and settle in, but once they do, they, like the trees in a forest, dominate.

Weeds are crowded out, Trees have better roots, more reserves etc) and there is less light for the weeds.

It is a much wiser method if you add lots of trees right away and give the trees everything they need.

Hopefully that makes a bit more to explain why it works for the aquatic plant/algae thing.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Burks said:


> That Riccia carpet is lovely! Now I really want to start mine up.


Haha, we will see how long that last
It';ll look good for about 8 weeks unless you work it, and that will be a never ending monster that I would charge a lot of $$ to maintain or find a stooge to do the dirty work for peanuts

I'd switch to HC or Hair grass.
Some Crypts will also work well.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## whitepine

plantbrain said:


> Haha, we will see how long that last
> It';ll look good for about 8 weeks unless you work it, and that will be a never ending monster that I would charge a lot of $$ to maintain or find a stooge to do the dirty work for peanuts
> 
> I'd switch to HC or Hair grass.
> Some Crypts will also work well.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


As I said before.. he has staff that takes care of the tank (they work for peanuts, not I). I am working on getting him to change it to at least glosso or hopefully hc. I am just waiting till he figures out that the riccia is a pita and wants something else  

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## agdavis

that's one big ass tank. congrats on the project...i hope thats a strong floor.


----------



## Y0uH0

Everything is coming along really well. It's really an enjoyment to see your tank's progress. Hope to see more updated shots soon.Boy i love this journal.


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## EliteFishy

Your water bill must be sky high.


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## Betowess

Looking terrific Whitepine. Love the riccia carpet. Is it mini? Are you using stainless steel wire to hold her down. I can't imagine trimming riccia 4' deep. Arghh. I too vote yes, lots of easy Swords and anubias! Great job on this behemoth.


----------



## plantbrain

whitepine said:


> As I said before.. he has staff that takes care of the tank (they work for peanuts, not I). I am working on getting him to change it to at least glosso or hopefully hc. I am just waiting till he figures out that the riccia is a pita and wants something else
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine


Well, we will see how long they keep it up. I don't train stooges to do my work, that cost me my own job
At least at specifics.

I will train subcontracting stooges to do my work and I pay them part(and I pay them well), but I do not train mainteance folks to take my work away, nor train LFS's maintenace business etc to learn how to do planted tanks.

They can learn on their own....

Some need to learn the hard way.

The HC and hair grass will grow in good at this stage and not get all algae covered.

HC should be trimmed once a month or so also.
Still, much better than Riccia, Riccia is fun and neat, but after some time, most every gives up on those lawns and then moves on to other scape designs.

Amano, who is well know for them, he does not maintain them for more than a few months time FYI. Then the tank gets torn down and new design is done.

That's fine if you have a smaller tank, easy access(all open top tanks, plenty of labor and resources)

I'll be doing a similar sized tank in about 2 weeks. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## medicineman

Nope, definately not riccia. I have the time for a 260 gallon tank but never want that thing to be my foreground in a mesh. Too much trouble for a big tank, not to mention the tank you are handling is a monster. Most will eventually succumb to more managable plants and some even decided what is too much for them and opt for maintainanceless cyrpt :icon_roll 

An easy trick of adding massive plant load for temporary : fast growing plants in pots. You can always use tongs/pincers to move them around. Sure they will look a bit ugly with the pot, but that is the easiest way by far (and is also done that way by most of monster tank owners in my country). Or alternatively add lots of ferns (bigger species) to the hardscape. The plant is a very good nutrition buster yet it is very low in maintenance need.

It takes some time to stabilize my tank, and several months (I think it is more than 5 months) to make everything growed out the tank. 
http://img133.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc0079wa8.jpg
Consider stuffing the tank with more plants and switch to the easier to maintain as the setup age. If you see the barricade of bacopa by the right... just remove them, replace with tennelus. See the left stem plants, replace them and you will get a whole different non-duch style on the tank.


----------



## j_chicago

any chance we can get a wideangle to see the whole length of the tank?

Looks great BTW
Jason


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## whitepine

I am heading down there tomorrow afternoon(8/9/2006) to hang out before the Real Madrid game!  Should be fun... I will try and get a full lenght shot of the tank for you all.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## carlos05

Wow...that is a cool tank. I hope I can do something like that one day for my own house...but not that big.


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## Rhinoman

When we move (next fall or following spring) I'm going to set up a 120" x 48" x 30" Amazonian biotype aquarium. I watch this thread carefully so I can see whats working and whats not. I can reach the bottom of a 30" tank with 4" of substrate. I would never want to deal with a 48" tall tank!


----------



## relaxing

Was in Seattle this past weekend for a wedding, and since the Triple Door is near the downtown attractions I roped my friends into dropping in for a happy hour drink. I'll just say the entire setup is as impressive as it sounds, even my non-enthusiast friends were impressed.

Here are a few shots:


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## bigstick120

Cool, you better show the owner this Whitepine!


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## A Hill

how did i miss this?? this is an INCREDIBLE tank. now while the owner of the bar isnt looking add some shrimp.... 

- fish newb -


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## dweebikus

Holy crap, I haven't even paid attention to this till today, my fiance and I are going to go by the Triple Door as soon as we can.


----------



## plantbrain

Whitepine, 22 hours of planting on my big tank.
Straight through till it was filled.

Here's a shot.
This tank has more tech than any tank I've ever seen.

Your tank will mature ina few months and fill in nicely.

Talk to the owner about adding more plants and suitable cover, you could stand to add hegdes of mid size Crypts to make divisions and the Crypts are easy to care for.

Leave the fronts open or use things like hair grass which only gets 3" tall etc and pull the gravel back.

Scaping is extremely important due to mainteance issues at these scales.

I added a 300lb piece of wood in the left corner, took an hour to get it in and positioned and 5 people.

I got the account to do 3 more such tanks for the LA zoo in addition to this one. I'm going to be tired after all that

Looking good!!!

Regards, 

Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

wow thats alot of wood tom! how do you guys get paid to do all these tanks..... i would probably like do it for free! lol!

but then again being 14 there would be pleanty of problems trying to do this most places.....

- fish newb -


----------



## trckrunrmike

Tom, you should help Seaworld out, they're freshwater exhibit is pathetic


----------



## whitepine

Fish Newb said:


> how did i miss this?? this is an INCREDIBLE tank. now while the owner of the bar isnt looking add some shrimp....
> 
> - fish newb -


We actually have amanos in there right now. We also have a 60 gallon tank downstairs with a small breeding population(around 150+) of Cherries that will start to go in next month. We are looking at adding more crypts and swapping out some of the plants in the forground. We will also be doing the first large scale pruining sometime next week.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## relaxing

Darn, if I had known there were Amanos I would've looked closely for them.

Oh and I forgot to say Nice work, Whitepine.


----------



## Architect1

wow what a difference the month has had with the co2 what an amazing tank. nice shots.


----------



## plantbrain

The L aromatic does well with topping and replanting those pesky top cuttings to fill out better.

you can always doa 60-70% water change and rework the tank once things get going, finding that many plants ans sitting on them while a pluber fixes something etc etc, is tough, but a well running tank makes adding plants much easier.

So figure in 1-2 plantings after.

The LA Zoo wants to do 3 like this, 6x20 4ft deep range, one like this one, one a piranha, one a Hydrocoylus.

We have many folks seeing this tank and it'll get more exposure than most any large planted tank in the media later both public and for the target high profile market I work with. 

Sorry Whitepine, don't mean to detract from the thread here.
Clarity is a huge issue with large tanks also
We run 4 bag filters with 1 mic, lots of bio, and lots of UV, about 500w of UV alone. When the plants run well and there's lots of O2, things look much better. I also run activated carbon due to the tannins in ADA AS.
New wood leachs also, so I add it for that as well.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## A Hill

whitepine said:


> We actually have amanos in there right now. We also have a 60 gallon tank downstairs with a small breeding population(around 150+) of Cherries that will start to go in next month. We are looking at adding more crypts and swapping out some of the plants in the forground. We will also be doing the first large scale pruining sometime next week.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine



wow that will be a sight to see! 2000g cherry tank :eek5: well not entierly but kinda... imagine in a few years? 1000+ cherry shrimp... then you can start finding "dead" ones and distributing them among members :smile: 

any new shots?

- fish newb -


----------



## Robert H

Whitepine, I think you have done an incredible job with this tank, despite all the critics here, you have managed to put together a nice aquascape with apparently little problems. No big disasters, no big algae blooms, and you did it all by yourselves without any outside help or someone like Tom. I don't know if it is you or the owner, but someone appears to know what they are doing, someone is a real hobbysit! Most club/restaurant owners who have show tanks don't know beans about the hobby and hire someone like Tom or Jeff. Just the fact that you know what Riccia is and how to tie it down and you are breeding your own shrimp...congratulations!

As anyone in this forum knows, a plant tank evolves over time, and this tank is already evolving. I think it is incredible. I really need to drive up and see this in person. There are so many things you could do with this tank all for the sake of asthetics and your own ejoyment. You could add more exotic plants for color, contrast, and so forth, but only if you wish to create a more exotic look. If you are happy with the amount of time required for prunning and re-planting and everything is going smoothly, then leave things be! I hope you keep updating us with new pictures


----------



## Momotaro

> despite all the critics here, you have managed to put together a nice aquascape with apparently little problems.


I didn't notice anything but postive feedback and amazement. 

Guess I'll have to re-read it!

Mike


----------



## mpb

Whitepine

I will definetly have a beer on this bar. You can tell the owner that I am only going there because of the tank.


----------



## SCMurphy

It must be fun getting to work with such a huge and stable body of water. Such a deep tank, you could use most any crypt for a carpet plant.


----------



## whitepine

Here's some new pictures before the big trim.

Northside of tank. Time to mow the growing lawn of dwarf hairgrass.



Southside of tank... Mattogrossense gone Wild!


We will also be adding some new plants. I will post some more pictures after the pruning.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## yoink

I'm awestruck. Great work whitepine.


----------



## matthi22004

what's your total amount of fish you have in that beautiful tank ?


----------



## guaiac_boy

Fabulous project. Large tank setups are always fun to follow. I've got to ask about the M. mattogrossense though. It can be a pain even in a small tank. I suspect you'll be able to trim enough of that every week to supply every LFS in the country.


----------



## mr.gaboozlebag

I don't realy like thewood on the noth side. It looks to orderly. Besides that, it looks great!


----------



## skewlboy

What exactly do you do w/ the trimmings?


----------



## mr.gaboozlebag

Any updates?


----------



## plantbrain

The mato will be/is nice, topping it and maintaining and nice ball will work pretty well.

Good plant, if the CO2/NO3 is low, it'll be a hog and grow well while others will not, watching that will help you.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## whitepine

skewlboy said:


> What exactly do you do w/ the trimmings?


no new pictures... the large scale pruning went fine. The Trimmings are traded to a local wholesaler for credit on supplies and fish!

I will take some new pictures later this week so you all can see the damage we did.



> The mato will be/is nice, topping it and maintaining and nice ball will work pretty well.
> 
> Good plant, if the CO2/NO3 is low, it'll be a hog and grow well while others will not, watching that will help you.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Tom Barr


Thanks again Tom for all your suggestions and help.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## sNApple

WOW, i love the tank size and set up. But personally the plants dont do it for me. I think the riccia is gonna be a waste of time and a pain in the ass and it doesnt even cover much area. I hope i can see some rare plants and a cool ground cover plant for this awesome tank.


----------



## Mangala

Momotaro said:


> I didn't notice anything but postive feedback and amazement.
> 
> Guess I'll have to re-read it!
> 
> Mike


Ha. "have to" re-read it. You know you just can't wait to have a good reason to read it again.  

Y'know, I'm not a bar person, but I might make an exception for this... I think it's close enough for me to walk...


----------



## whitepine

sNApple said:


> WOW, i love the tank size and set up. But personally the plants dont do it for me. I think the riccia is gonna be a waste of time and a pain in the ass and it doesnt even cover much area. I hope i can see some rare plants and a cool ground cover plant for this awesome tank.


The Riccia covers on area about 2ft by 8 ft. I would not say that is a small area. I am working on changing it over from regular riccia to dwarf riccia.

The Triple door has great musician playing all the time... another great reason to head down there and check out the tank.

cheers, Whitepine


----------



## plantbrain

I went with HC, likely a better solution over time if you tire or the client tires of Riccia.

One really good thing about Riccia: excellent CO2 indictator.
No pearling, not enough CO2.
Easy to spot and adjust.

The Arizona Aquatic garden's web site has some very good tools that you might like, the angled Kelly scissors are nice for trimming.

The spatula and tweezers are decent and worth the $.
That and 50% water change makes working on the plants easier, 75% WC if you can do it.

regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## kzr750r1

Well I finally get the chance to check this monster out in person. I'm in town for a few days. I'll edit this later with an impression....Walking over in a few min. So far this is one impressive display. Thanks for sharing this so when possible we can check it out and have a beer or two. 

Edit as promised.
Well a long walk and one beer later I'm back at the hotel.
I like the whole setup...With some exceptions of course.
First the positive.
Great impression when you enter the bar looking at that bunch of swords.
Nice layout with the substrate and hardscape.
Great selection of plants and fish. The fish selection was cool and I've never seen hatchets that big before. 
What plants are in there are growing well, too bad I see it after a big trim.
The Lotus on the north side is looking awsome. You've got that one trained right, I like.

Now the negetave.
I like ricca but that looks like a pain in the booty. Some had detached itself from the tile weights, but created a cave in the process.
BBA is taking hold...I hear Tom...More CO2! The wood needs to have some anubis added later if you guys can get a handle on the BBA...
Water had more floating debris than I'd care for in my tanks.

I also vote for more java needle leaf would look killer on the wood. This would fill it out some more.

Noticed a brick of glosso floating on the south side. Are they going to try and see if it takes? If so what part of the tank will it get planted?

Over all a great tank! I'd go nutz trying to keep it in order so. :thumbsup:


----------



## Nightshop

You know I think I saw a tank with the same proportions as this one at Aquarium Concepts in Hayward California.


----------



## kzr750r1

AC tank is a bit taller... Plus it'a a reef. I havn't been back since they rebuilt it. The last unit cracked....:icon_eek: 

Can you imagine a tank this large with a leak?

The interesting thing about the acrylic is it makes illusion that the substrate is floating 2" above the stand.


----------



## Hoppy

I can't believe that I just found this thread tonight! Wow! What a fantastic tank. My wife looked at it and told me to hop on a plane and go see it! Right now I can't do any drinking, so I will have to wait another month or so, then up to Seattle I go! Beautiful job. 

You mentioned that the maintenance crew scrapes the glass regularly. Does that mean you have GDA in there? Hey, how about telling the owner that he needs to let the GDA live out its life cycle for 3 months! Now, that would really qualify for a FEMA grant.


----------



## kzr750r1

Hoppy said:


> I can't believe that I just found this thread tonight! Wow! What a fantastic tank. My wife looked at it and told me to hop on a plane and go see it! Right now I can't do any drinking, so I will have to wait another month or so, then up to Seattle I go! Beautiful job.
> 
> You mentioned that the maintenance crew scrapes the glass regularly. Does that mean you have GDA in there? Hey, how about telling the owner that he needs to let the GDA live out its life cycle for 3 months! Now, that would really qualify for a FEMA grant.


Welcome to the Whitepine appreciation party Hoppy. Interesting that there is not a trace of GDA just BBA. This would have been a good home for that kliner bar sword you got rid of a few weeks back…

Funny and not, but it would take FEMA 3months to respond to the disaster. By that time GDA would have died off.:icon_roll


----------



## whitepine

We are having some problems with the co2 in the last month. blown seals, blown regulator and bottles running out of c02.... makes bba happy. We are also looking at installing the old mazzi injectors from the last tank to help with the co2 levels.

Cheers, Whitepine


----------



## plantbrain

Often the pressure from check valves can mess with things, and the solenoids tend to be squirrley with higher volumes and electrical current(when the lights come on, they drop the amps).

Whitepine, get a nice Victor regulator, some nice needle valves, tape everything very good yourself, don't let anyone else mess the CO2 system up 

Tanks don't need nearly as much CO2 initially as they grow in, they need a lot more!! => More healthy growing plants.

You can crank the CO2 more to stop the BBA and use Excel, a lot, to kill what is there.

Not much you can do about bottles running out of CO2 if the client's don't check it. Have them do that and impress upon them that the tank will run 10X better with good CO2.

They should have the ability to swap them without you being there also, they swap out the CO2 tanks for the soda and beer after all!!:thumbsup: 

Tell them about adding tape to the threads and also the plastic inner seal etc.
Place "how to" notes on critical things and what levels the gauges should be at etc.

You will fight this tank till the cows come home unless you address the CO2.
If the CO2 is addressed, then the tank will be a weed farm.
Then you can scape and put what you want in there etc.

It's all about the gas.

With ADA AS and EI, all that is left is CO2.
EI and CO2 are cheap if done right and grow the plants fast.

The large behemoth I have is jamming along, no algae, good CO2, lots of light etc. It was all CO2.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## lumpyfunk

plantbrain said:


> You can crank the CO2 more to stop the BBA and use Excel, a lot, to kill what is there.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Can you imagine the amount of excel to overdose this tank??? I know spot treatment, But when I read it I just thought of pouring in Liters of excel a day


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## plantbrain

A tad less than a liter a day, 50% water change daily and do this for 4-5 days.

So the keeping the CO2 up is a big headache otherwise.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## whitepine

I just got off the phone with the owner... along with all the co2 problem ...the tank last week shut down for over 12 hours with a power outtage. Now everything seems to have gone haywire(I don't think its as bad as the owner thinks). I am heading down there tomorrow afternoon to see what we can fix on the short term and what plans we need to place for the future. This is gonna cost him  I will post more later.


Cheers, Whitepine


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## Betowess

whitepine said:


> I just got off the phone with the owner... along with all the co2 problem ...the tank last week shut down for over 12 hours with a power outtage. Now everything seems to have gone haywire(I don't think its as bad as the owner thinks). I am heading down there tomorrow afternoon to see what we can fix on the short term and what plans we need to place for the future. This is gonna cost him  I will post more later.
> 
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine



I've seen plenty of BBA. But, I haven't seen this babe yet. And I'm a coming Whitepine. Very sweet work. And bill the heck out a him! He owes you! LOL


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## plantbrain

You need a committed owner such tanks.
WP email me if you need any suggestions.
I want to see the tank looking good!!

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## bioch

Looks like your planting rice in rice pladdies.


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## whitepine

plantbrain said:


> You need a committed owner such tanks.
> WP email me if you need any suggestions.
> I want to see the tank looking good!!
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


He is committed... I just need him to hook up the controller to his pc upstairs. the power outtage would have been no big deal if he would have gotten a alert right away that something was a miss with his tank. Thanks for the offer Tom. I think we have it worked out for now. Looks like some more work needs to be done on the tank and its plumbing system.

I will post pictures after all is done.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## GreenerSideofLIfe

Betowess said:


> Well, too bad Boesmani rainbows aren't SA. A big school of them in that tank would be an amazing sight. Could you pretend they're SA? LOL



Actualy Rainbows CAN deal with SA fish.  The great thing about rainbows... they are fast and smart enough to know to stick to cover. Anyway, I know this post was a ways back but I wanted to respond anyhow.


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## antwan

hey there, any updates? cheers.


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## whitepine

Here's an update.


Northend looking South. Hair grass is grown in nicely and the Lotus is tame for now.




One of the new inhabitants.... Apistogramma cacatoides double orange. I was hoping the New large saucers would be out. No Luck so I will have to try and get pictures of the Tefe green discus later this week.





Cheers, Whitepine


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## Lycosa

:drool: ........WOW.....

That's totally amazing!


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## fish_lover0591

That Is AWESOME ! roud: roud: roud: :bounce:


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## A Hill

Tank is looking great! So how is your cherry red farm fairing?

- Andrew


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## whitepine

Here's a picture of some of the new discus.



Cheers, Whitepine


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## RoseHawke

Pretty, pretty! 

I like how you said the Lotus is "tame for *now*" :hihi: . I finally pulled the one I had in my tank out as I got tired of snipping leaves just about every day. Sometimes I swear it had to be done _twice_ a day!


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## plantbrain

Are you considering removing the petrified wood and placing either rounded black stones or letting the grass grow out into the gravel area?
I think that would look nicer.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## cbennett

i have to agree with tom, the tank is amazing but the petrified wood border is very jarring to the eye IMHO.


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## magicmagni

Yeah I'd say so too. That transition needs to be smoothed somehow.


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## plantbrain

The other option, once folks seldom do and you have the mopani wood, it to use the other not so gnarly side to make a nice border between the sand and the plants, another plant or two that will work well: Lobelia and/or Blyxa japonica.

The other option: Cover the petrified wood with moss, you'll need a lot of moss or plants to make the borders, the smooth black stones, about fist to head size would look and be the cheapest if you can find them locally.

The client on my large tank meddled and ripped up the wood I used as a border, so I'll be heading down with rock this time and remove the large petrified wood for the Basalt.

I do not think basalt unless it's well worn would look good for this transition though.

Think about it, sit down and see what you got, what the client will pay for etc.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## whitepine

We have actully talked about it and have the soil to fill this area in completely. Originally the plan was to plant crypts in the transitions but he changed his mind when it came time to order the plants. I will see where we go. We also have a good portion of weeping moss taking off that could be tied to the rock and would look great. Thanks for the suggestions. 

The cherry farming hasn't taken off as the temps seem to be too high for there liking. Now that winter is here... the tank temp has come down a little and doesn't spike as much with the heat from the lights. Yes, we did install a chiller and have had two bad heaters along with some co2 issues that I think are resolved for now.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## magicmagni

The thought of hairgrass and moss together on purpose is scary! Especially on a tank that size.

Do you really need all those there as a border? Maybe leave like half of them there and let the hairgrass spread around the stones into the sandy area.


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## whitepine

The owner really likes the riccia carpet. I guess we will remove most of the petrified wood and start a carpet infront of this area. I think it will work out fine. I will post some pictures of it once it has grown in.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## plantbrain

Hair grass will allow the riccia to stay put, it gets tangled but it looks fine.
I use a comb to comb out the algae or Riccia in the hair grass.
That way I can keep things apart where needed/desired.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## whitepine

Here's couple of quick picture of some of the new discus.






I will be redoing some of the tank in the next few weeks and will update with new pictures.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## bumblebee

Are those blue face heckle? So nice, love them.


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## plantbrain

I'd just let that hair grass grow in.
Hair grass is easy and not much trimming.
I have a lot of plecos that are larger in some of my tanks so they maul the grass. But I like the plecos and the client's becoem attached to them quickly.

That'd take care of the foreground with a much easier plant, there are some smaller green Wendtii hybrids around these days that stay smaller also.

You might consider a cascade of rock flowing out into the grass lawn once it fills in, that might have a nice effect, having a nice grassy rock garden.

If you use such a rock layout as a border, go look at a creek, see how ferns and mosses fill in the cracks? Take some Anubias or Ferns etc and fill in between, add little plantings where the rock naturally makes a bend inward and forms and small nook.
Hide the cracks with weeds.
This will give the appearance of a single rock rather than a jumble.

Do not try and do this all at once, do it in 2-4 ft sections each time you work on it. Ideally the amount of growth produced will allow you to use the cuttings produced by the tank.

I think this will give the tank and nice effect and stregthen the design without too much redo/rework or added cost.

Running rows from to back through the cracks between the petrified wood would look nice, do them at angles and use several angles to make transition zones. Crypts would look very nice using this methods, or Lobelia card small form.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## philoserenus

awesome looking beauty! quick question, how in the world do u make sure all the fish (especially the discus) get well fed in such a huge tank?


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## mrbelvedere

Wow that _Aponogeton_ sp. is huge.


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## aquarium boy

wow that thing is awesome it makes my plans of puting up a 500 gallon look tiny lol.


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## whitepine

The discus rule the tank. The fish are also feed several times a day(small feedings). What the other fish don't eat are found by the Cory's and other plecos at the bottom.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## James From Cali

I swear this tank reminds me of an actual river. Those fish must be in heaven. Beautiful Discus btw.


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## 2wheelsx2

Hmmm....what about all these claims that Discus are slow eaters etc.? Or is that only applicable for juvies?


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## tpl*co

WOW, whata tank! That's almost 20x bigger than mine! beautiful!


Tina


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## whitepine

here's a few new pictures.



some of the plants on the left and right will be moved back this weekend to even out the tank. We just need to add some color to this end.





Cheers, Whitepine


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## filipnoy85

Amazing as always!


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## wood

Yea the tank is so big it makes the discus look small, even though they are not...

Love the tank. Keep up the great work. I have to give you tons of credit, I don't think some people realize how hard it is to aquascape a tank of that scale. It is easy for others to criticize the aquascaping in a tank this size because it is so large that paying attention to every single detail is extremely difficult for the aquascaper. Being able to pay attention to details is a 55gallon is a world apart from this tank. You have done an excellent job. 

What temps are you keeping the tank at for those discus? Also, where did you get those discus and what strain are they? Blue Snakeskin I think they are...


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## Lupin

Whitepine dude, stunning tank.roud: Now I'm into one of my jealous moods.:hihi:


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## whitepine

wood said:


> Yea the tank is so big it makes the discus look small, even though they are not...
> 
> What temps are you keeping the tank at for those discus? Also, where did you get those discus and what strain are they? Blue Snakeskin I think they are...



The temp of the tank is at 80 degrees. It stays pretty constant now that we have a reliable chiller and have worked out the circuits for the heater.

The discus are Heckles and Tefe... we got them from a local importer. They are suppose to be all wild caught. The importer said he hadn't seen discus this size in quite a while.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## A Hill

Tank looks awesome! It is sooo HUGE!

The cherries Do tend to like a constant temp. Sooner or later I bet you won't be able to get rid of them fast enough 



plantbrain said:


> Hair grass will allow the riccia to stay put, it gets tangled but it looks fine.
> I use a comb to comb out the algae or Riccia in the hair grass.
> That way I can keep things apart where needed/desired.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


^ I do the same thing! Works awesome!

Awesome job as always!

-Andrew


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## kzr750r1

mrbelvedere said:


> Wow that _Aponogeton_ sp. is huge.


You ain't kidding. This was an impressive part of this tank. Everything has room to grow to it's full potential. Nice to see the discus and hear that the equipment is working these days... As always great job and thanks for keeping us up to date on this WP.

Now I have to make an excuse with the company to go back up and see it for myself again. 

EDIT: 5/30/07 : I made it up and going over tonight to check it out again. It's now 6:03 and a beer sounds pretty good.


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## EdTheEdge

Any update on this tank?


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## whitepine

We had an "cloudiness" issue with the ada soil.... and pulled all of it out about a month ago. back to step one. We saved as many plants as possible and are evaluating the tank for more plants and new animal species. The owner wants to move to bigger fish. There is a new goldie pleco in there.... he is around 9 inches and loves to dig in the corners. I will try and get some new pictures.

Cheers, Whitepine


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## ZooTycoonMaster

WOW!! Your tank is HUGE and AWESOME!!! How much did just the tank cost?


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## Contrast

Absolutely Beautiful!!!


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## colinthebassist

you could scuba dive in that tank.


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## ikuzo

so... large...


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## plantbrain

whitepine said:


> We had an "cloudiness" issue with the ada soil.... and pulled all of it out about a month ago. back to step one. We saved as many plants as possible and are evaluating the tank for more plants and new animal species. The owner wants to move to bigger fish. There is a new goldie pleco in there.... he is around 9 inches and loves to dig in the corners. I will try and get some new pictures.
> 
> Cheers, Whitepine



White pine, I was going to mention the photo's looked cloudy etc.
You can do a few things to rectify that, my client did not want to, but others did, we used purigen and changed the intake.

Cleared right up.

I think moving and messing with huge distances, say 4ft of vert space is tough to remove all the fines without really good circulation, good ports, good intake of tank water is big issue with ADA AS.

One switched to EC and the other switched to Black Flourite.
I prefer the latter greatly.

Hey, if you would like 3 x 12" A. adonis black satan plecos, let me know, they are really nice.

Also, use wood, lots of large pieces, ferns, Crypts 
Keep a few stems and then top them. L aromatica, R indica etc, Myrio's are good. Another nice plant is giant Hygro, and L aquatica gets really nice as does L cuba.

They can grow to their full glory, as well as swords.
*Love the wild discus*, look much better than gaudy dinner plates, but they will eat every shrimp and small thing they can catch.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## procrastinate

dear BUDDHA, I can't believe this project. I've always wanted to go to seattle, but I now want to make a pilgrimage. 

Can't wait to see the rescape.


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## Madfish

All I can say is WOW.... Im going to be heading up to Seattle here in a couple of weeks I will have to stop and check it out.


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## kzr750r1

Bummer WP. Sounds like a load of work... What substrate is the new choice?


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## fishscale

Did Amano use Aquasoil in his big tank? What causes the cloudiness? Why does this only happen in big tanks like this?

BTW, amazing tank. I'd like to have something half this size one day.


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## 2wheelsx2

fishscale said:


> Did Amano use Aquasoil in his big tank? What causes the cloudiness? Why does this only happen in big tanks like this?
> 
> BTW, amazing tank. I'd like to have something half this size one day.


I think the conclusion from Tom Barr's thread was that it happens in every tank. But once you get to a certain size, the column of water is thick enough that you start to notice it, and the bigger the tank, the worse it gets. The problem is treatable as Tom stated above, but not very nice if you tend to do a lot of work in the tank, such as any high light tank would require. Hopefully, I summarized that correctly.


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## kzr750r1

Heading over to the bar now. I'll snap a photo with my cell phone and see if it's decent enough to post.


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## plantbrain

I think if you look at ADA's tank, Amano uses a lot of white sand/gravel, there's some Ps and AS under that, but he does not uproot much, most of the tank is left and the epiphytes + emergents are about all that's routinely trimmed(and then not much).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## EdTheEdge

kzr750r1 said:


> Heading over to the bar now. I'll snap a photo with my cell phone and see if it's decent enough to post.


Waiting patiently...............................


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## kzr750r1

The photos suck.

Looks like the substrate used is pea gravel. Complete replant is failrly new and many of the large plants have been removed. It' will take some time to mature but should look good in a few weeks.


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## whitepine

The tank was replanted about a month ago. The aquasoil was clouding up the water. There was also a species of fish removed. Pretty hard to get fish out a planted tank, not to mention a 2000 gallon tank:fish: 

Cheers, Whitepine


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## monkeyruler90

how is the tank doing?


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## monkeyruler90

by the way, what are the stats? like pH and stuff?


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## monkeyruler90

btw, what are the tank stats? ph? amonia, nitrate, nitrite?


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## CL

wow......
edit, didnt notice how old this thread is. but wow:icon_eek:


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## Cryptocorynic

Anyone know if this planted tank is still going, and how it's doing? We're going 
there in a week and a half...

-Ilkka

WP are you still taking care of this tank? I may soon need to find a bigger home 
for a monster Aponogeton Boivianus - it's getting too big for my 120G "nano"


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## dastowers

Wow! I just lost 1 hour of my day reading this thread. Update please if anyone has it.


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## Cryptocorynic

I'll take my DSLR with me just in case when we go there next Saturday!
I hope it's still running, and kept in nice shape.


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## RickRS

Cryptocorynic said:


> Anyone know if this planted tank is still going, and how it's doing? We're going
> there in a week and a half...


The aquarium is apparently still featured there. Check the first pic in the slideshow for the Musicquarium Lounge. It's only a glance at what might be in store. Looking forward to any pictures you post.


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## Cryptocorynic

A bit of a disappointment. The tank has been converted to house African Cichlids, Lake Tanganyika I believe. The tank is still very impressive but I wish I had seen it as a planted tank. Oh well...


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