# Help Needed for my first ever plant tank



## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Hi all,

I have just started my first ever planted tank on the first day of this year. It is still in its cycling period, the 18th day today. This is my setup for the tank

2 feet tank, 38cm height. No CO2, dosing fert and using LED light of 11W, 8 hours daily.

Recently, I noticed that algae is growing in my tank. I think there are also BBA on my windelov and surface of my substrate. Also had some hair algae and GDA. Is it that I am allowing too much light? Below are some photos for reference. I am thinking to add DIY CO2 soon as my hairgrass are growing too slowly. Wish for faster growth.

Also, my local LFS told me that those brown snails, as shown in the 4th picture, circled in red, should be disposed (killed) immediately as they will be a pest in long run. Is this true?

Any help will be much appreciated.


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## philipraposo1982 (Mar 6, 2014)

I love snails. They can multiply like crazy if there is lots of food for them but with good feeding habits and a clean tank their numbers will be fine. They don't hurt plants at all.

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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

There's a lot more that you need to consider:
How big are your LED bulbs and what spectrum?
What type of ferts, how much/how often?
How often are you doing water changes?
what's your substrate?
That stuff on your substrate are called diatoms. Perfectly normal, guaranteed, in a new tank.
What's that first pic supposed to be of?

Those snails are called bladder snails. Peoples opinion vary about them. They can definitely been seen as a nuisance because they add to your bio-load and they reproduce quickly, but if you don't have a ton of live stock then they aren't as big of a deal. I like them. They can actually be considered part of your clean up crew, they eat algae and detritus, and are good indicators. The more for them to eat, the larger numbers your tank can sustain. There will at some point be a plateau when (if) there resources start to diminish. There are quite a few fish, even other snails, that actively hunt and eat those snails. You could look into that if you feel so inclined.

And if your gonna do co2, go pressurized. Consistency is a must when it comes to co2.


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## myswtsins (Nov 1, 2008)

Most likely rhizoclonium or spirogyra. I had one, or both of them with a new tank setup. What worked for me was raising the light fixture a little, giving a break of light in afternoon and adding floating plants. Sounds like it's all about lighting but lower light intensity lowers the need for other nutrients including co2, it's about balance and finding it. Once the plants are better established they will better out compete the algae and will be hungrier for nutrients (including light, ferts and co2, naturally occurring or otherwise)

Those are pond snails. Yes, a "pest" snail. But if you don't over feed and keep plant debris cleaned up they will not over populate. Or you can squish them now before they lay tons of eggs. I keep them for all the reasons others listed.

Hair grass does significantly better with co2, I've heard. And I would second skipping diy. Either stick with none, use liquid carbon(excel) or go right to pressurized.


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## davlee (Jan 6, 2016)

Mikevwall said:


> There's a lot more that you need to consider:
> How big are your LED bulbs and what spectrum?
> What type of ferts, how much/how often?
> How often are you doing water changes?
> ...


Wow.. really no idea on my LED spectrum. Not mention on the box. As for the fert, I'm actually using ocean free brand liquid fert and trace elements alternatively, 3ml per day. Since I'm on my cycling process, not really doing water change coz lfs said not needed. Erm.... I'm using soil from ocean free, also laid with rooting agent. 

The first pic is to show the brown mesh-like formed top of the driftwood tip, guess that's what you identified as diatoms? 

Will keep those snails as for now, as my clean up crew. Thanks!

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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

myswtsins said:


> Most likely rhizoclonium or spirogyra. I had one, or both of them with a new tank setup. What worked for me was raising the light fixture a little, giving a break of light in afternoon and adding floating plants. Sounds like it's all about lighting but lower light intensity lowers the need for other nutrients including co2, it's about balance and finding it. Once the plants are better established they will better out compete the algae and will be hungrier for nutrients (including light, ferts and co2, naturally occurring or otherwise)
> 
> Those are pond snails. Yes, a "pest" snail. But if you don't over feed and keep plant debris cleaned up they will not over populate. Or you can squish them now before they lay tons of eggs. I keep them for all the reasons others listed.
> 
> ...


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## myswtsins (Nov 1, 2008)

Ok, I'll clarify too. I was referring to diy as yeast and sugar. I have not heard of citric acid and baking soda method but I would consider paint ball pressurized, just small and not as precise.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Mikevwall said:


> There's a lot more that you need to consider:
> How big are your LED bulbs and what spectrum?
> What type of ferts, how much/how often?
> How often are you doing water changes?
> ...


Thanks for the prompt reply. I have no idea what is the spectrum of my LED, not mentioned on the box. The LED is 60cm in length with 0.5W LED x 22 pcs. 

I am using liquid fert from Ocean Free and Trace elements. Dosing 3ml per day, alternatively. Since I'm in the cycling process, did not really do any water change because my lfs said it was unnecessarily. For the first pic, I was trying to show the brown coloured sponge like thing formed on top of the tip of the driftwood. Maybe I'll try to get a better picture later.

Yeah, I was thinking of the DIY CO2 yeast sugar mix but after reading your other comments, might wanna get those DIY kit from ebay and try out the citric acid baking soda. Thanks for recommending. First time seeing this new DIY. Many thanks roud:


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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

I have a citric acid set up on my 6 gal, its great. 
.5w led's are small, don't have the best penetrating ability, but ur tanks not that deep, so I would just try to figure out what spectrum the led's are to be sure they can support plant growth.
I'm not familiar with your ferts.
Ammonia spikes occur when a tank is cycling, which can kill your new pets, and very quickly leading to algae growth. You should in fact do more water changes when a tank cycles. Granted, all plants have the beneficial bacteria that you are trying to grow when a tanks cycling already on them. So cycling a new tank with enough plants is considered a "mini cycle", shortening the length it takes for your tank to cycle because you already have the living beneficial bacteria.
Each time you increase your bio-load (even as your snails breed), more ammonia will enter your system. Plants do take in ammonia, but only to a certain extent.
Do a 25% water change once a week, at least.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Here is the clearer picture of the brown sponge like thing... what type of algae is this?


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## davlee (Jan 6, 2016)

I figured those brownish algae is diatoms... Will not worry too much about it. Thanks.

Btw, Mikevwall, since you're using the citric acid co2, what type of diffuser you're using? Wanted the external atomized type but worry the pressure is not high enough for such diffuser. Many thanks

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## kuriuskitten (Jan 22, 2016)

Hi,

I'm also doing citric acid/baking soda for DIY CO2. I'm early in the setup (almost 2 weeks) but getting steady pressure and so far really good results. I'm using a Gulfstream Tropical 3-in-1 Diffuser. It's a check valve, bubble counter, and ceramic diffuser in one (good value). 

It's working ok, but I've decided to maximize my CO2 setup. So, I'm getting a HOB canister filter and I'm going to adapt it so it will also atomize my CO2.

Only thing I'm skeptical about is the dwarf hairgrass. I've not had much luck with it, it has been a lot of trial and error with that plant for me. From my understanding, most carpeting plants require atleast med/med-high light requirements to survive and co2 to thrive. Only low req carpet would be with a moss, like java. Oh and be careful stocking your tank. Nobody mentions this, but my Angelfish have been very destructive with my plants. It's taken creativity on my part, to protect my plants from being uprooted.

Good luck!


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Thanks for the reply. My tank has fully cycled now and I have added few baby guppies to the tank while waiting to add some Albino Full Red guppies... I will be using the tank for breeding guppies and maybe add some cory, which will be much later on, after the dwarf hairgrass have fully rooted. 

Already ordered the DIY CO2 Kit. Still waiting for it now. Facing some algae issue right now, with diatoms, green dust algae and even BBA... Not sure what to do next. Might want to increase the lighting when I get the CO2 kit to encourage DHG growth. My DHG is doing ok, just not spreading horizontally as fast as I wish it would.


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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

davlee said:


> I figured those brownish algae is diatoms... Will not worry too much about it. Thanks.
> 
> Btw, Mikevwall, since you're using the citric acid co2, what type of diffuser you're using? Wanted the external atomized type but worry the pressure is not high enough for such diffuser. Many thanks
> 
> Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


I made a DIY bubble counter/ diffuser out of a syringe and a cigarette filter ( real easy to make and doesn't require high pressure ) placed beneath a power head. The pressure is much higher with citric/baking soda compared to yeast/suar.

Bump:


davlee81 said:


> Thanks for the reply. My tank has fully cycled now and I have added few baby guppies to the tank while waiting to add some Albino Full Red guppies... I will be using the tank for breeding guppies and maybe add some cory, which will be much later on, after the dwarf hairgrass have fully rooted.
> 
> Already ordered the DIY CO2 Kit. Still waiting for it now. Facing some algae issue right now, with diatoms, green dust algae and even BBA... Not sure what to do next. Might want to increase the lighting when I get the CO2 kit to encourage DHG growth. My DHG is doing ok, just not spreading horizontally as fast as I wish it would.


its gonna take a few weeks to see any change, increasing your lighting may not be what you need. You have a imbalance that you need to correct. Increasing you lighting should be the last step. Co2 first. Do you have any test kits?


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## caique (Mar 16, 2012)

davlee said:


> Wow.. really no idea on my LED spectrum. Not mention on the box. As for the fert, I'm actually using ocean free brand liquid fert and trace elements alternatively, 3ml per day. Since I'm on my cycling process, not really doing water change coz lfs said not needed. Erm.... I'm using soil from ocean free, also laid with rooting agent.
> 
> The first pic is to show the brown mesh-like formed top of the driftwood tip, guess that's what you identified as diatoms?
> 
> ...


Don't listen to the local fish store if they tell you that water changes aren't needed, fish and plants love water changes just make sure to put in some prime.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Mikevwall said:


> I made a DIY bubble counter/ diffuser out of a syringe and a cigarette filter ( real easy to make and doesn't require high pressure ) placed beneath a power head. The pressure is much higher with citric/baking soda compared to yeast/suar.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> its gonna take a few weeks to see any change, increasing your lighting may not be what you need. You have a imbalance that you need to correct. Increasing you lighting should be the last step. Co2 first. Do you have any test kits?


No test kit for now. I guess will just have to wait for the CO2 DIY kit to arrive before I can do trial to control the algae. Right now, I am getting all sorts of algae, BBA, green hair, green spot... hahaha. Cant do much about it as I'm still waiting for my CO2 kit


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## Mikevwall (Jul 27, 2015)

You can cut the lighting wayyy back is what you can do.


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## csong30 (Jan 24, 2016)

I don't do any sort of c02 I have a low tech set up. With low led lighting by beamswork. I cut down the light time in intervals. 5 hours on 4 hours off and 5 hours on. That helped a lot with my algae issue. It's still there, but it's not as crazy as when I first had the light on for 10 hours straight. Adding a timer helped me. Not really too worried about the algae since I have otos that love to eat it. Especially the brown algae. Literally all gone. The time your light is on can make a big difference imo.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

Mikevwall said:


> You can cut the lighting wayyy back is what you can do.


I will try that out. Currently my setting is 4/on, 3/off, 4/on. Will reduce to 3/on, 5/off, 3/on to see how is the effect. Thanks


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

I don't like to do two changes at once because then I don't know which change helped the problem. So, since you have changed your lighting schedule recently, I would wait two weeks from the change and see if there is a reduction in the algae. If not, I would then reduce the fertilizing. I would cut it back to a half dose, and wait two weeks and see if there is a reduction in algae.
As you get more plant mass, and the algae under control, you can then slowly ramp up the fertilizing.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Too much light, not enough healthy plant mass. None of your plants are doing very well from the looks of it. In order to prevent algae and have a stable tank you need a mass of healthy plants. That is really the only situation where you can run higher levels of light.

Reducing light will help out but IMO getting a ton of easy/healthy plants in there ASAP will be even better.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

touch of sky said:


> I don't like to do two changes at once because then I don't know which change helped the problem. So, since you have changed your lighting schedule recently, I would wait two weeks from the change and see if there is a reduction in the algae. If not, I would then reduce the fertilizing. I would cut it back to a half dose, and wait two weeks and see if there is a reduction in algae.
> As you get more plant mass, and the algae under control, you can then slowly ramp up the fertilizing.


Thanks for the suggestion. My fert is already low dosing I assume. 3ml of trace/fert, alternatively. 

I will try the lighting first, reduce to 6 hours in total to see if it helps. 



klibs said:


> Too much light, not enough healthy plant mass. None of your plants are doing very well from the looks of it. In order to prevent algae and have a stable tank you need a mass of healthy plants. That is really the only situation where you can run higher levels of light.
> 
> Reducing light will help out but IMO getting a ton of easy/healthy plants in there ASAP will be even better.


Well, I would say that my plant mass is already there... not too sure though. Maybe you can have a look at my latest tank. The cabomba and rotala are doing REALLY well... just that my DHG and moss is slow growing. If you notice, the left side of the tank where the cabomba is, there are hardly any algae growing while the right side, which has the rocks, this is the area where algae are growing more. I'm confused because this side is supposed to have the most water flow as the outlet is pointing directly as the right side but seems like algae are growing more on the right side...


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## touch of sky (Nov 1, 2011)

The left side of the tank is shaded by the plant growing to the surface, and the right side is not. Maybe some floating plants on the right side would help.
What are the little yellow balls in the hair grass?


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

That picture is much better



touch of sky said:


> The left side of the tank is shaded by the plant growing to the surface, and the right side is not. Maybe some floating plants on the right side would help.
> What are the little yellow balls in the hair grass?


This is why the right side has algae. Left side sees like no light at substrate level so of course algae is less apt to grow there.

DHG will grow very slowly unless you provide ample CO2.


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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

touch of sky said:


> The left side of the tank is shaded by the plant growing to the surface, and the right side is not. Maybe some floating plants on the right side would help.
> What are the little yellow balls in the hair grass?


I'm thinking to get frogbit too. Those yellow balls are actually base booster. Supposedly hidden under the soil but been doing lots of rescape and replanting hence all came out. Haha. Will need to spend some hours to push them back in... 



klibs said:


> That picture is much better
> 
> This is why the right side has algae. Left side sees like no light at substrate level so of course algae is less apt to grow there.
> 
> DHG will grow very slowly unless you provide ample CO2.


I see... Would it affect growth of DHG is they are being shaded? I thought my lighting is quite weak. My LFS does not recommend LED saying the lighting is usually weaker. Hence, I thought my LED is already on the weaker side.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Everyone learns eventually to stop listening to fools that work at LFS. 99% are clueless when it comes to planted tanks. They all come on here saying 'my LFS told me to do xyz' and everyone on the forum usually says they received terrible advice. Do you see nice planted tanks at your LFS? If the answer is no then it can usually be assumed they have little to no experience in the matter. The blanket statement that 'LED's are usually weaker' is a stupid thing to say.

LED lights vary wildly in strength. Some are very weak (finnex stingray, general viewing lights) and some are extremely powerful (radion, BML, etc). I would even argue that in today's age more of the plant-marketed LEDs are powerful vs weak. Without knowing what kind of fixture you have / because I know nothing about how specific LED diodes produce amounts of light I can only assume how powerful your fixture is based on how your tank looks.

Yes - lower light levels will affect growth of DHG (along with all other plants). But at the same time higher light may cause issues for you. Based on how your tank looks it seems you have decent amounts of light. I would argue that if you had low light levels you would not be seeing any algae given how your background plants are looking. 

How fast is that cabomba growing? I had that plant in my high tech for a few weeks then tossed it because it grew stupid fast for me. If yours is growing at a good pace then that is a very good thing. It is a great plant to have a lot of to prevent any potential algae issues (sucks up a lot of light / nutrients).

I think if you trim the plants on the left about halfway and re-plant the tops on the right side you will quickly double your plant mass. This would also not totally shade your DHG on the left. DHG in that little light is basically going to not grow at all. IMO DHG (while hard to get to 'take off' and spread quickly) is quite resilient and will survive and grow slowly as long as it gets some light and has decent substrate. It is going to take a very long time for it to 'carpet' for you. If you are seeing any growth at all out of it then you are headed in the right direction. Moving your light towards the rear of the tank to primarily hit the background fast-growers might also help you out. The background plants should be able to handle it from the looks of it and this would cause slightly less light to hit the front.

Just remember the more light you hit your tank with then more balanced / careful you will need to be. More demanding plants that require this kind of environment are difficult to grow because you need to take great care in balancing your tank's light, plant mass, CO2, ferts at higher levels of light. I would not be so fast to think your fixture is insufficient amounts of light. More power usually = more problems


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## emrg (Jan 22, 2016)

I think klibs has a lot of good points and a way of making growing plants very practical

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## davlee81 (Jan 18, 2016)

klibs said:


> Everyone learns eventually to stop listening to fools that work at LFS. 99% are clueless when it comes to planted tanks. They all come on here saying 'my LFS told me to do xyz' and everyone on the forum usually says they received terrible advice. Do you see nice planted tanks at your LFS? If the answer is no then it can usually be assumed they have little to no experience in the matter. The blanket statement that 'LED's are usually weaker' is a stupid thing to say.
> 
> LED lights vary wildly in strength. Some are very weak (finnex stingray, general viewing lights) and some are extremely powerful (radion, BML, etc). I would even argue that in today's age more of the plant-marketed LEDs are powerful vs weak. Without knowing what kind of fixture you have / because I know nothing about how specific LED diodes produce amounts of light I can only assume how powerful your fixture is based on how your tank looks.
> 
> ...


Thank you sir for your lengthy reply and suggestions. Much appreciated.

My cabomba are growing quite at a rapid rate, say about an inch a day. Was trimming them previously but now I just left them to grow to the surface and then growing horizontally. 

As for now, I will cut down on the lighting, to see if I can control the algae growth. Once I get my CO2 DIY kit, then I will increase the lighting again. Well, I do not plan to cut the plants on the left to replant on the right because I wish to have two different look, left and right. Also, I do not wish those high plants to cover up the moss wall that I'm attempting. Maybe I will try get some floating plant for the left side, thinking of frogbit... hehe.

Thank you so much again for your reply!


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