# Otto owners and fuzz algae?



## all4funwfish (Jan 18, 2004)

I have both ottos and shrimp, and i highly recommend shrimp ( but your angels may very well eat everylast one of them). I would say that it may be the young tank, and the ottos dont nibble on it. Are the ottos your only algae eaters? from my experiences, 5 ottos in a 50 will not cut it. I recommend getting several varieties of algae eaters in your tank as each have their preferences. Ottos seem to clean glass and plants well, but mine tend to ignore the longer tufts of algae, however my red tail shark nibbles on it, as do my SAE's. I also have a chinese algae eater although most here seem to dislike them. Mine does a great job of keeping my glass and broad leaves clean. I also have a plecostomus and a load of shrimp. your angel, does indeed hinder your shrimping abilities, but many succesful tanks do not contain shrimp, or SAE's.. I suggest housing more than a single kind of algae eater.
I had an angel eat an otto one time...ottos are extremely bony and the otto got stuck in thee angels mouth. I had to remove the angel, and pull the otto out of his mouth with pliers after bones began protruding from my angels throat....hopefully your angels are too big or small for this task.


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

While the SAE's will grow fairly large, they are still amazing cleaners of most types of Algae (especially hair algae on plants, if little other foodsource is provided). I've two SAE's and a False one.... the only one to ever show ANY agression was the False SAE (whom does little to clean any Algae at all).

My Friend andyg keeps Ottos and SAE's, LOVES his little Otto/SAE cleaning crew. I think My SAE's, Pleco and Rainbow Shark are equally talented. My Ghost Shrimp dont touch Algae, but I've heard nothing but excellent comments about Amano Shrimp being very effective.

I agree with all4funwfish, always good to have more then one species for cleaning, as some won't touch certain kinds of Algae, while others adore it.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

dear all4funwfish & ayrsayle,

thanks for the information.

Since my original posting, I sold off my four Angels. Not only did they limit my ability to keep shrimp (which I've wanted to try), but they have a history of trying to eat other fish I'd like to keep (harlequins, cardinals, etc., even ottos). I've had them for several years and it was tough to part with them, but time for change.

My 5 Ottos are still alive and kicking. Agreed, I need to add some other helpers to the algae eating crew. My algae is (knock on driftwood) minimal, but I'd like to get some Amano and cherry shrimp. If you are familiar with these shrimp and can offer some initial stocking numbers (keeping in mind they{the cherry} will hopefully breed) that would be great.

I might get an SAE (unless I'm suppose to buy a pair?). My biggest concern about buying them is purchasing the wrong fish and/or them getting big. A few of the better LFS by me appear to have what they call SAE for sale, but you know how that goes -- a lot of misidentification. I need to brush up on the differences again. If I can find a genuine one, I might try one or two. I'd prefer not to mail order them, as that gets expensive.

Other fish in the tank will be rummy nose, harlequin, maybe cardinals. As far as larger fish go, I bought some Dwarf Praecox, which remain relatively small and, according to others on this board, don't seem to bother shrimp.

Thanks
Steve


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Yeah... I toyed with the idea of Angelfish, then decided against it. Only A.Thomasi for me (cichlid at least).

Id strongly recomend getting at least 2 SAE's, maybe even 3-4 (entirely my suggestion... once they get large its going problem). They seem to be very social and are usualy ALWAYS found together. Another alternative is a rainbow shark, which will add some color to your tank. Just be careful with the rainbow shark, as he'll chase other fish away from "his" territory. So maybe 2 SAE's and a rainbow shark? Entirely suggestions.

Shimp are awesome from what I've heard/seen and are very easy on your fish-stocking limit. I just dont really like the look of shrimp, but I'm biased.

SAE give-aways are harder to notice when they are small, but ill give a few ID helpers. 
They will only have one set of barbels (False SAE's will have 4)
Their black line will go all the way from their nose through their tail, rather then stopping at the fin
Usually will follow this color pattern (from top to bottom): Grey, black stripe, light grey/white. if your seeing them in: grey, light grey/white, black stripe ending at rear fins, light grey, you are likely looking at a False SAE. 
Also (besides the black stripe), their fins will be almost colorless at small size (the flying fox and the False SAE have very slight color changes in their top fin).

If that's hard to follow, let me know and ill try to explain it better, or offer a good website for it. I'm a huge fan of my SAE's. Energetic and fun they really add something special to my tank.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

cool thats a great start. you wouldn't happen to have a picture of your own SAE would you? If not, I don't want to be a bother. I have good things about SAE and a pair might be nice for my tank while they are small...

did you get yours at an LFS?


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

I do have a picture of them... tommorow ill post up mine. (Tired).

I bought mine from an LFS under the label "flying fox" which they were not. got a False SAE and two True SAE's. This was before I knew exactly what to look for. My False SAE was picking on my True SAE's, which made me do some research as to why it was happening (I was told they were peaceful). They mix fine while small and look alot alike, but as they get bigger the False becomes a problem.

An Edit to my previous post: False SAE's have two sets of barbels (4 small barbs in total), SAE's have only one set (2 small barbs in total).

read this: http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/
That should give you a basic idea of what to look for.

pictures here: http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_sae.php
(note the tail stripe, lack of color in the fins, and the grey/black/white coloring)


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

ayrsayle--
great info and it was very clearly stated. i now know that i have a Chinese Algae Eater (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri) and not a false SAE as i thought. the barbel bit got me thinking...
kris

ps-- i like the algae eating property, but they are a pain in the... to catch.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

Another really good fish for algae such as hair or fuzz algae is American Flag Fish (Jordanella floridae), they on get 1.5 to 2 inches long and are hard workers at keeping you tank clean.


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Kris said:


> ayrsayle--
> great info and it was very clearly stated. i now know that i have a Chinese Algae Eater (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri) and not a false SAE as i thought. the barbel bit got me thinking...
> kris
> 
> ps-- i like the algae eating property, but they are a pain in the... to catch.


Welcome! If you could tell me anything about your Chinese Algae eater, id certainly be curious (any Algae eater is worth looking into, id say).


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

according to what i have read, they get to be 11" in the wild but are most commonly seen at 6". they like to set up territories and so are best kept singly. i read nothing about whether they attach themselves to large fish (like plecos have a tendency to do) or if they get lazy as they get older (like SAEs can) i think that they do an impressive job on most algae. i am waiting to see what they do with the hair algae growing on my stem plants...will report.


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Mine certainly arent territorial at all.... but thats just me. (SAE's)


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

thanks guys

funny, I was at an LFS today and Petco.

LFS had some SAE. Looked like them for sure. They were pretty big though and, because of that, 9.99 each.

Petco has some much smaller ones for 1.99 each labeled as Flying Fox. I am pretty sure they are true SAE per your description. Worse case, I can buy some, take a pic, post it and see what you think. I Can always return them  I need to wait until later in the week until after I rid some ick.

how many might you recommend in my 50g again? I'm thinking two. (already has the 5 ottos plus i'll be getting some shrimp)


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

2 seems reasonible... And even if they DO get large, they will still not look out of place in a moderate to heavily planted tank. Be sure to take a pic! (remember to check the tails and the bands on the body!).

Most certainly go for the smaller ones. They *will* grow (grins)


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

ayrsayle 

thanks! Yeah, I'm seeing some long strands of algae, so I don't think I can wait for shrimp since I don't plan to buy them this month. I might pick up two of what I think are SAE at Petco tonight. They seem to fit the description. I will also check the barbels. They are small, maybe only an inch. The thing is though, in most of the SAE pics I've seen, the SAE kind of has a rounded shape, rounded underbelly. The SAE at Petco look more flat on the belly -- is this flattened underbelly more common in babies?

I will take pics for sure if I buy them. Hopefully, they will be true SAE, as it will be a pain to catch them and fish them out!


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Well, the two I originally bought looked starved, but healthy regardless. Yes, they are fairly thin when they are little, and add alot of weight as they grow. Your seeing healthy established fish (which look nicer) in the pics, which may or may not look like your newbie fish.

I tried to take some pictures of my FSAE, but the bloody bugger is to fast to get anything more then a dull blur. I'll try to get some good pics of him after work.

Im really eager to see your new SAE's and will do my best to help you ID them.

They will help limit, but not stop an algae problem. But you knew that (laughs).


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

groovy!

yah, I may postpone the purchase until week's end. Curing some ick at the moment, no reason to subject them to that. I will definitely follow up on this thread once I buy them though. curious to know your thoughts.
steve


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

motifone said:


> groovy!
> 
> yah, I may postpone the purchase until week's end. Curing some ick at the moment, no reason to subject them to that. I will definitely follow up on this thread once I buy them though. curious to know your thoughts.
> steve


My only huge thought is that we both share the same name. I suppose my huge love for my SAE's shines through. I'll be watching the thread!

-Stephen


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Finally got a picture of my SAE for you, Motifone..










Such pretty fish...


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

hey man

thanks so much for taking a pic. it's appreciated. I'm hoping to pick up a couple this weekend ... probably just in time because I'm seeing some long threads of algae stuff 

I'll post a pic as well once i get a couple


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

ayrsayle


Well, I finally bought a couple of what I think are SAE from Petco of all places. They were in a tank marked Flying Fox. I was able to take a pic of one of the two I bought. The pics below are of the same fish. Both fish are fairly young looking, a little scrawny, and the second one is MIA. He almost looked dead last night, very still, but his eyes were very alert, looking around - was kind of funny. I'll need to poke around for him this morning.

Anyhow, from what I can see my fish seems to fit the SAE traits: one pair of barbs, colorless fins, black all the way to end of tail (even though washed out here in the pic). The black line in the eye is faint, not as dark as yours, again maybe because it's young.

Whatca think?


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

I'm pretty darn sure you have yourself 2 very small SAE's Motifone! The color will come in alot more as they become larger and get comfy in the tank. They look alot like mine when I first got them around 2 months ago... So I'd say your very lucky to grab them. They most certainly arent flying foxes.

Remember, they'll eat just about anything (flake food or algae) so try (if possible) to limit their intake of flake food once they've filled out a little bit. My cichlids muscle them out of the way when it comes to flake food... but im sure your's might prefer the flakes to the algae.... (grins).

Congrats on the excellent pics!


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

cool, thankd man for all your help on this.

what kind of algae do you find these SAE dudes eat? I seem to mostly have scattered fuzz algae and an occasional long strand of something. One of the SAE is swimming about sniffing around, can't tell if he's eatin yet. The other one spent all day sittin on a branch by the water line and is very scrawny and shy. Since I got him at Petco I might exchange him for a replacement, since they had another one at the store.


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## andyg (Oct 9, 2004)

Congrats Motifone, looks like your the proud owner of a couple of true SAE's.
Don't worry too much about them not being too active at first, It will take them a couple of days to settle in.
As far as what algae they eat, I found mine going after just about anything that has appeared in my tanks. ( Fuzz, Tread or Hair, Brown ) One of them is actually trying to get the spot green algae of the glass. ( not much success there, LOL )
As Ayrsayle suggested, try to limit their intake of other food source ( Flakes, Pellets, Ect. ) This may mean 2-3 smaller feeding at a time for the other tank inhabitants so they get most of the food before the SAE's.
You'll see them quite often resting on plants, bottom, ect, after a feast on algae but, they soon get back to work.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Oops!

After a LONG search tonight for my second elusive SAE I finally found him: dead and sucked into the underbelly of my new Mini Jet 404 Powerhead. (hehe) Well, I could tell he wasn't long for this world. Hell, I could tell that when they bagged him at Petco he was weak, but I was too darn poliete. Anyways, Petco has been good about taking back dead fish -- I'll go exhange it for the other sturdier specimen in the tank.

My other SAE seems fine and active.


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

How are they turning out Motifone? did you manage to get another one?


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

hiya ayrsayle,

thanks for following up.

Petco was good about taking the other one back and replacing it with a new one (the last in their tank). The new one is in good health and both SAE seem to be prancing about the tank, sometimes alongside each other, nibbling at the leaves edge, presumably eating algae.  So all is well in that respect. 

I'm just starting a real fetilizing regiment, so my biggest problem in the tank right now is what I believe is "fuzz algae" -- not at all visible standing 5 feet in front of the tank, but move closer and, ouch, I can see the tiny fuzz filaments on good portion of the plants, which are in otherwise good health. There's also some sporadic longer whitish pieces of thread algae, which neither the SAE or Ottos seem to eat. The Ottos and probably the SAE are doing their best to keep the fuzz algae manegable (boy, those Ottos sure are dirty poop factories!), but I really need to get the tank nutrients balanced. I don't think fuzz algae is normal in a healthy tank  or maybe I am wrong (?) I also want to add some Amano and/or Cherry shrimp to the mix. The tank substrate and some of the plant surfaces are also covered in dusty organics -- I'm going to buy a diatom filter and give the tank a good polish.

Thanks for all your help (and everyone else's) in helping me ID the SAE along with all my other questions


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

Well.. having my own (and semi current) issues with hair algae, for me its slowly going away as my plants fill in and the algae eaters clean it up. Excessive amounts I don't believe are common, but managible amounts shouldn't worry you too much(I've seen at least some in all the planted tanks I've looked at).

Is your dust red-ish? If it is you might want to hold off on a Diatom filter. I DID have red dust like substance (diatoms) cover my tank for a short time, and the good news is it usualy takes care of itself. Turns out as long as regular water changes are done (reducing nitrates), it will eventually burn itself out due to a lack of silicates. At least that was the case for me. If you have a substrate that is rich is silicates, or are adding it from a different source (check your aquarium salt... my main source) you might want to buy a diatom filter. Seeing as how expensive they can be, just try to keep the Nitrates down and remove the added source of silicates. Cheap, and will disappear in 2weeks - 1 month. Keep an Eye out for the opportunisitc blue-green spot algae that will replace it (at least, it did so for me). Also a low Light environment seems to encourage the diatoms, and upping the light for the plants will muscle it out of your tank for good!

Adding more algae eaters keeps managible algae down, but consider whats causing the algae before adding in all the shrimp. How's the Phosphorus in your tank? Mine was sky-high at one point.... and after lowering it the algae started disappearing.

Patience! (grins)


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

what levels of nitrate and phosphate are you looking to keep in your tank?

also, how are you fertilizing nitrate and phosphate, if at all?

of course, we want a little of both


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

motifone said:


> what levels of nitrate and phosphate are you looking to keep in your tank?
> 
> also, how are you fertilizing nitrate and phosphate, if at all?
> 
> of course, we want a little of both


Well, still fighting with keeping the phosphates down to a reasonible level. I think im looking at around 1.0 at the moment (WAY to high), and around 5-10 Nitrate count.

I don't dose for either, actually. My fish provide the Nitrate, and the food (i assume) the phosphate. My tap water has some Phosphate in it as well (not that im to happy about that).

I assume it will become more and more managible as I keep working on it.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hmm

The funny thing is most folks seem to strive for 5-10ppm Nitrate and 1ppm Phosphate, in 10:1 ratio.  Apparently, it is fairly standard and the backbone for dosing methods like the Tom Barr method of fertilizing. I'm new to the whole dosing thing as well, but I'm starting to dose my 50g 3x a week with 10ppm Nitrate and 1ppm Phosphate. On the other 3 days I am dosing micros. I'll be doing some actual water testing to see how much of the NO3 and PO4 is being absorbed before applying each dose. I'll have some results next week to share -- before dosing last night, my nitrate was at 1.1ppm and phosphates at zero!


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## ayrsayle (Jan 9, 2005)

(grins) I'm alot less disciplined in regards to my dosing... I mostly dose as i see a need (which involves lots of measuring.... but im slowly getting a better feel for the exact amounts needed each time).

My Phosphates tend to settle around 1.0-2.5... not entirely sure what causes the buildup. My Nitrate usualy remains constantly between 5-10.

I finally caved and got three little Ottos for my tank..... so far so good.. all are healthy and thriving (the little poop factories they are). As well as 3 Yo-Yo loaches. My ideal tank is finaly finished.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

It is really a waste of time dosing and testing according to the tank,
If you test, you want to test your tap water. That is what you add most of every week.

Next time you go pay your waterbill ask them for the water params, most have a pamphlet with that NFO in it, they will be happy to give you!
If the tank has any plants in it at all, you should be dosing what they need, Lights C02 Nutrients, KN03/KH2P04/K2S04/Trace... Iron is a luxury..Even non C02 tanks need these ferts.

Keep in mind, that we are not building Piano's, we are growing weed's underwater, a P04 reading of 2, 3, 4 is not deadly or does it cause algae it's the lack of knowledge one poses's on his dosing regime

If you will dose a set amount ina disciplined manner, based on the water reading's from your tap, it will balance out, Tom has done the hard work for us.

Most not all but most have fairly low levels of N03 and P04 in there tap water, therefore you should be dosing on a regular, disciplined schedule or you are just making it hard on yourself, it really is not that complicated.
These $10 test kits are not that accurate, so don't place alot of faith in them, they require alot of cross testing to determine an amount of accuracy,
"they are a simple guide, not rules" in time you develope a sense for it, without ever having to even test, with the exception of kh/ph/C02
Develope your skill in reading the plant's, that's the best test kit you can have.
Silah

Thanks


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## kingkano (Jun 1, 2004)

Out of interest, any pointers or articles in dosing if your tap water DOES have alot of po4 + no3???


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Yes Sir, say you have 20ppm N03 even 30ppm and say 2ppm P04 or 3ppm in tap water, that is perfect, dose these two less, if at all, plant hard, still need to dose K2S04 & Trace on a regular basis, & watch the plant's grow, but if your tap water is that rich, get a RO unit, don't drink it... You're plant's will love it.

Thanks


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## kingkano (Jun 1, 2004)

sadly alot of tapwater over here IS that rich lol. I get 20-25 no3 and I think 3 po4. But we do use water filtering cartridge for our drinking, as its just gross otherwise. I am trying to work out now how to go about regular changes without overloading the tank with phos.

So if I do like 25% change a week that will dump about .75 phos in each time, and no3 varies so could be 0 or could be 5 or so. If I top up my no3 to 10 and get everything else in balanced that should work dya reckon?

I probably need more fast growers tho. I only have small amount hydrocotyle, some limnophila and some bacopa. The rest is crypts & java ferns.

Does Flourish provide enough traces dosed as per the bottle??


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

Flourish is good stuff and will add enough trace dose 5ml 3 x a week for a 20 for starters, you can increase or decrease based on plant mass and what not, just watch the plants, add KN03 and P04 also if you need to, don't let the plant's run out of food, that is what you do not want.....


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## ringram (Jan 19, 2005)

motifone said:


> dear all4funwfish & ayrsayle,
> (cropped)
> I might get an SAE (unless I'm suppose to buy a pair?). My biggest concern about buying them is purchasing the wrong fish and/or them getting big. A few of the better LFS by me appear to have what they call SAE for sale, but you know how that goes -- a lot of misidentification. I need to brush up on the differences again. (cropped)
> Steve



Well, the basic and easiest-to-see-right-away difference between SAEs and the "fake" ones are the look of the scales. SAEs tend to look more glossy and smooth, whereas the others have courser-looking scales. Probably an even bigger indentifying factor is the black stripe that extends all the way to the tip of the tail on the SAE, but only to the base of the tail on the others. That's how I've always identified them and everything seems to work fine.


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