# New tank, fishless cycle (just starting), sour smell?



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

New large tank, fishless cycling, filled for less than a week, with a few plants added in the last 2 days.

It has a large driftwood stump (2nd hand from a prior freshwater tank), sand substrate (about 3"), a small amount of Osmocote+ under the substrate (one of the little cubs that came in it, probably about a tablespoon). 

No fish or other animals at all. Had a thick white bacteria bloom at first, which just cleared up over the last 24 hours.

And over the last 24 hours I am getting a really stale, musty smell. It's not the rotten egg smell of hydrogen sulfides, it's a source smell, like old wet laundry. 

I was dosing ammonia, first does (24ml 10%, in 220 G) was mostly gone in a day (for reasons unclear), added another 20ml several days ago, and that's all. Now Ammonia is 8ppm or more (pretty dark green). I suspect that is from the Osmocote+, and/or the dying bacteria.

But the smell... do ending bacterial blooms stink? 

I am not presently running carbon or purigen in the tank, I do have two filters running and good surface agitation. The recently planted items have not changed appearance. Water is slightly yellow (driftwood I think). Zero nitrites, no cycling yet despite some jump start with old media.

Any idea what the smell might be? Wait it out? Add carbon or purigen?


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

like stagnant water smell or more sulfuric?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Italionstallion888 said:


> like stagnant water smell or more sulfuric?


More stagnant, definitely not sulfide.

And not just "wet" stagnant, it's very sour, like mold or mildew (but clearly not that simple). New tank by the way, new filters, etc. Nothing old that might be stinking as it hydrates.

No signs of algae in the water or rocks, etc.

The driftwood is a possibility, it's completely submerged. It was reported to be in another freshwater tank for years. It has a few crumbly areas inside the stumb but generally it's hard and bark free.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

driftwood or you have some areas of the tank not getting enough flow. My mopani smelled terribad for a few weeks and then it went away. 

do a few water changes if you are not and see if it helps.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Italionstallion888 said:


> driftwood or you have some areas of the tank not getting enough flow. My mopani smelled terribad for a few weeks and then it went away.
> 
> do a few water changes if you are not and see if it helps.


Yeah, "a few water changes" at this size is a bit of a pain.  

I think I'll give it a day or two, and throw a bag of carbon in one filter, see what comes of it. I'm hoping it is dead bacteria from the initial bloom.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

I know the smell your talking about...I wouldn't worry its probably the driftwood. Some of my driftwood had that odd smell to it. Add some carbon, carbon is meant to adsorb meds, discoloration and odor.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

greaser84 said:


> I know the smell your talking about...I wouldn't worry its probably the driftwood. Some of my driftwood had that odd smell to it. Add some carbon, carbon is meant to adsorb meds, discoloration and odor.


Thanks. I had one spare bag of carbon, and just ordered 3 purigen, been meaning to try that for some time, this seems like a good time.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

Linwood said:


> Thanks. I had one spare bag of carbon, and just ordered 3 purigen, been meaning to try that for some time, this seems like a good time.


Don't use the purigen until the cycle is over.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Why did you add so much ammonia? 

Water changes are probably the way to go. Buy a python hose to make the changes easy.


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## ashokjr (Aug 4, 2014)

Linwood said:


> Yeah, "a few water changes" at this size is a bit of a pain.
> 
> I think I'll give it a day or two, and throw a bag of carbon in one filter, see what comes of it. I'm hoping it is dead bacteria from the initial bloom.


:biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:

I too cringe every single time when someone says "do a 30% water change" or "50% water change" or "change 10% water every day for a few days" and I have only a 100 gallons. I can relate to you completely. however, most of the time, that's the only way out. I guess you can wait it out since there are no fish in it yet.


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## Italionstallion888 (Jun 29, 2013)

Water changes just come with the territory of owning a tank, small or large. Has to be done, especially during the initial stages.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

8 ppm ammonia is too high. The bacteria do not do so well when it is over 5 ppm. 

Do a 50% water change. Or else run some ammonia removing media. Get it down under 5 ppm. 

Ammonia can also make the tank smell. Not usually musty. Most people think of it as cat urine odor.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> Why did you add so much ammonia?
> 
> Water changes are probably the way to go. Buy a python hose to make the changes easy.


I THOUGHT I added the proper amount for the tank size. The real issue is why I had a near zero reading a day after the initial dose.

But I should have, with the dose I added, around 5ppm even if none has been consumed/converted. 

I just did a diluted test (50% distilled water, 50% tank) and got 4ppm, maybe a bit under, so it is probably in the 7-8ppm range.

Are the plants going to reduce this by themselves if I'm patient? I have no animals in the tank at all.

From what I've read, this extra ammonia may have come from the osmocote+ I used. There are numerous stories of a sharp rise in ammonia from it. Hopefully it's a one time thing.

Anyway... as to the smell -- I was perhaps just impatient there. I just came back from a trip into town for a couple hours, and no longer smell the tank in the room. If I stick my face right on top of the tank I smell it slightly. So it seems to have been only a half-day +/- event, at least apparently.

My theory still is that it was the dying bacteria -- the smell came as the water cleared. Well, "theory" is a bit strong, as I have no basis for it, other than one happened then the other.

As to the python, our tap water is awful, and I am using RODI water for the tank, so it's a slightly bigger deal. My main hesitation is I used all my DI media with the first fill and am waiting for more to come in. I figured I had a couple weeks at least before I needed massive quantities again, plus I haven't rigged up the long siphon I need.

Bump:


greaser84 said:


> Don't use the purigen until the cycle is over.


That's good to know, can you elaborate on why, does it interfer with the cycle or... ?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

High ammonia readings like you have will kill many species of plants. Even lower amounts of ammonia of 1-2 ppm will severely damage certain species of plants. If I were you I'd do a 90% water change as soon as possible, a pain I know, but necessary.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Ditto Zapins. 
Most plants cannot handle 8 ppm ammonia. 
1 ppm is generally safe for most, see the notes at the end of my fishless cycle. 

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> High ammonia readings like you have will kill many species of plants. Even lower amounts of ammonia of 1-2 ppm will severely damage certain species of plants. If I were you I'd do a 90% water change as soon as possible, a pain I know, but necessary.


If I have to do a 90% water change I'm just throwing it away and starting over, and fixing some of the other issues such as driftwood tiedown, and I'll plant before I fill this time. I won't have filter media for a week or so anyway.

I hope it doesn't come to that.



Diana said:


> Ditto Zapins.
> Most plants cannot handle 8 ppm ammonia.
> 1 ppm is generally safe for most, see the notes at the end of my fishless cycle.
> ....
> C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


There are just too many different ones of these out there. One I read (on AquariumAdvice.com) says aim for 4ppm and "Plants love the ammonia". I've seen that echoed a few other places, so had not worried too much. 

Most of the plants have been in there now for a couple days, if it's that bad, I assume they are dead. I'll think about this overnight and retest in the morning.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

> Most of the plants have been in there now for a couple days, if it's that bad, I assume they are dead. I'll think about this overnight and retest in the morning.


If the plants look bad then maybe, if they look fine leave them and keep moving forward. Don't gut the plants until you are for sure they are gone.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

So... before I go nuts on making changes (the tank after all has little investment at present, if I kill everything I lose $50 in plants and some time)... 

I'm thinking of doing this: Adding an old HOB filter with some Ammo Chips in it. This should reduce the ammonia. Let it run and monitor the level, see if it comes down fast enough. If I get it down near 1-2ppm then stop.

The good news is that I have detectable nitrites this morning, so the seeded media is doing something.

The bad news is I think Ammonia is slightly higher -- I think a lot of the excess is coming from the Omsocote+, since I have not added any more. If indeed that's true, then changing water is not going to be a one time solution.

And the smell is gone, so I think that's unrelated.


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

Linwood said:


> If I have to do a 90% water change I'm just throwing it away and starting over


There's not really a good way to avoid water changes when keeping fish. If you're going to commit to a large tank that means large water changes. If you're not willing to do that, with some frequency, I would recommend not getting any fish.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Linwood said:


> There are just too many different ones of these out there. One I read (on AquariumAdvice.com) says aim for 4ppm and "Plants love the ammonia". I've seen that echoed a few other places, so had not worried too much.


Yeah, unfortunately that blanket statement advise is out there and it is pretty misleading. _Some_ species of plants prefer ammonia over nitrates and can use it without significant problems. However, many, if not most plants have real problems with ammonia as the source of nitrogen especially when it is the sole source or major source of nitrogen. The exact reason why ammonia is harmful is not known, but some researchers believe it has to do with an inability to prevent too many H+ ions coming in with the ammonia versus with the nitrate uptake. 



Linwood said:


> Most of the plants have been in there now for a couple days, if it's that bad, I assume they are dead. I'll think about this overnight and retest in the morning.


You may be lucky and have minimal damage. Damage depends a lot on the duration of exposure, the individual species preference for ammonia or nitrates and tank parameters which can make uptake and toxicity more or less apparent. So, the sooner the water change the better the outcome.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Reginald2 said:


> There's not really a good way to avoid water changes when keeping fish. If you're going to commit to a large tank that means large water changes. If you're not willing to do that, with some frequency, I would recommend not getting any fish.


I understand the genesis of that statement, but there's a context to consider. This tank has only a few days run time involved, no fish in it, and minimal planting. 

A 90% water change, with a 3" sand substrate, takes me down basically to no water above the sand.

I planned to do water changes, but since I use RODI water I planned to have a couple days notice to make the water (I have an 80 gallon tank to accumulate). in this case I have neither notice nor, due to surprisingly quick consumption, media for the filters (it is on order). So it is logistically complicated now as well to do a proper water change. Heck -- I haven't even bought the long tube I need to siphon (there's no drain anywhere nearby). 

And finally and most importantly to me -- if this excess ammonia is being fed continually by the Osmocote+ I added, the water change would be only temporary relief. I'm more interested at this point in determining whether this is somehow from over-dosing, or if this is coming out of the substrate. It's more important to know if I made a mistake in doing that than to save this iteration. Yes, a 90% change, if the ammonia came back, would tell me that -- but it would take 4 days of making water to determine that (water I can't make correctly right now).

So I understand the sentiment, I hope you will understand the context is a bit different than having a fish-in cycle going and a sudden ammonia spike and trying to have a few hundred dollars in fish, or worse an established tank I was trying to save.

Bump: OK, I found some Ammo Chips, and added the whole quart to a HOB (Aqueon 75) i had lying around. My understanding is unlike Prime, they permanently remove the ammonia, though I can't find any indication of their capacity. But with a lot of flow through them what I'm hoping is the Ammonia starts dropping. If I can get it to a safe level, I stop using them, and watch again -- if it starts back up, it's the Osmocote+ (as there's really nothing else to generate ammonia), and depending on how rapidly it rises I may have to dig out all the substrate and remove it. If it doesn't, the cycle can continue.


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

Linwood said:


> I understand the genesis of that statement, but there's a context to consider. This tank has only a few days run time involved, no fish in it, and minimal planting.
> 
> A 90% water change, with a 3" sand substrate, takes me down basically to no water above the sand.
> 
> ...


Quite right. without any fish, there's not too much point in water changes, other than algae (I don't know much about plants and ammonia). It could help you identify if it is the osmocote+ and then rethink that if you had to, but it sounds like you've got a good plan, arguably better, for figuring that out anyway.

I appreciate your taking my curmudgeonly, overly cautious, and out of context reply with grace. I really didn't mean it to sound quite that bad, or at least I'm a bit embarrassed it now and don't want to admit it.

I'm curious about the ammonia chips, as I've never used them. Worse comes to worse and you have to remove the substrate, I think as long as it doesn't get all in the filter it shouldn't affect the cycle much.

As for the smell. I've thought that new/cycling tanks smelled sort of "swampy" or like an old mud puddle that's drying up or something. If the wood is squishy, you may have to keep an eye on it. Softwoods (I made the grape vine mistake once) can get sort of stinky, fungus-y, and gross under water.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Reginald2 said:


> I appreciate your taking my curmudgeonly, overly cautious, and out of context reply with grace. I really didn't mean it to sound quite that bad, or at least I'm a bit embarrassed it now and don't want to admit it.
> 
> I'm curious about the ammonia chips, as I've never used them. Worse comes to worse and you have to remove the substrate, I think as long as it doesn't get all in the filter it shouldn't affect the cycle much.


Hey, if we let things on the internet bother us, we go nuts. Thanks for the reply though.

I'm curious as well, I see relatively little about them given that they have a rather significant feature of not just locking up ammonia briefly, but removing it. They (rightly I guess) appear condemned as a poor alternative to a properly cycled tank, but they still seem an interesting tool. 

Another day or so should tell me. I'm getting just a trace of nitrites still, so I do not think I'm getting significant ammonia conversion from BB yet; if the ammonia goes away it's almost certainly the chips. I added almost another liter (the HOB has a BIG area) and periodically go stir them to try to keep different rocks being used. More tomorrow sometime.

I have stopped adding plants until this gets sorted.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Well, the Ammo Chips are not doing much. This morning the Ammonia is a solid 8 (i.e. 4 with 50/50 diluted water). It definitely dipped a bit yesterday, but now back up.

Interestingly the nitrites are zero (they were definitely at least 0.25 maybe a bit more yesterday), and I measured Nitrates and got about 5ppm. I'm not sure if the latter is coming from fertilizer or actual conversion. But whatever is generating either nitrites or nitrates is certainly not putting a dent in the ammonia.

I did find some DI media and can make water again, will start preparing some as I'll need it whether I do a water change, or just scrap the tank and start over. I still wish I could tell where the ammonia is coming from. I may try pulling the water level down just to above the filter intakes, so I can keep running them (the spray bars will make noise but won't really hurt anything with water falling 8" or so), and then make the water into the tank to refill. That won't take out enough ammonia on its own, but my primary goal is to find out if it is really increasing still. 

Incidentally, I found a formula for Zeolite, and it says I would need 6 pounds to take the ammonia down from 8 to 3, roughly, so even if that's working I have an inadequate amount. That's assume the formula and my particular flavors match (the formula was on some wiki page not the manufacturer, who has nothing useful of course on their sites).


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> (the formula was on some wiki page not the manufacturer, who has nothing useful of course on their sites).


I also have found that I need to do other research, not trust the manufacturer for details like this. 

Some forms of Zeolite can be rejuvenated. 
Soak in strong salt water solution overnight, then rinse in RO or DI. 
You may be able to reuse the chips a few times. 
The ammonia ought to be freed, but other things might not be.

Plants suffering from the ammonia will get soft, mushy leaves that are dark green. Anubias is one plant that cannot handle high ammonia levels. 
Anacharis will handle it, and might make another way you can remove a lot of ammonia. Can you get enough Anacharis to stuff the tank perhaps 25% full? Really packed in there. When it fluffs out in the water flow the tank will look full. Maybe go out into the local river and look for some. This is taking the risk of bringing back some fish disease or something. 

Hey! Just thought of this:
You do not need to use RO/DI water to refill the tank at this point. Just refill with tap water (unless it has some toxins). The minerals in the tap water are useful to the nitrifying bacteria. 
Once the tank has cycled you can set up and do a really big (99%) water change, or a couple in a row, and switch it over to soft, acidic water that better suits your fish choices.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> Some forms of Zeolite can be rejuvenated.
> Soak in strong salt water solution overnight, then rinse in RO or DI.
> You may be able to reuse the chips a few times.


I read that, though it recommends a 24 hour soak followed by days of drying (though I guess i could bake it). My concern at this point is with almost 2 pounds in (not enough I realize), the ammonia seems to be going up. I'd really like to get further down on the scale as I do not trust readings where I'm eye-balling a 50/50 split on the water to get on the API scale, though. Another thing I need is a graduated pipette (note to self). 

The other concern is I have API Ammo Chips which say rechargeable, and Petco chips which do not (but more importantly the petco say "for salt or fresh water" which lead me to think they are a different type). And I've mixed them; while they are different colors I'm not about to try to sort. 



Diana said:


> Hey! Just thought of this:
> You do not need to use RO/DI water to refill the tank at this point. Just refill with tap water (unless it has some toxins). The minerals in the tap water are useful to the nitrifying bacteria.


Could, but really do not want to. I'm still trying to get the water chemistry of a 45G fish-in cycle back to normal from my tap water here. But I have media now, so am making more (slowly).



Diana said:


> Once the tank has cycled you can set up and do a really big (99%) water change, or a couple in a row, and switch it over to soft, acidic water that better suits your fish choices.


That's just not going to be possible. I have an 80 gallon tank, which with rock and substrate probably represents about 30%. A couple buckets may get me to 35%. That's about the most I am going to be able to do, long term, at a time. Storing 180-200 G of water for several days while it is made, and keeping it at the right temperature, is not going to be viable. My goal with a big, low tech tank was to get enough of a balance where 20-30% water changes were going to be adequate. If that fails, well, this just isn't going to work.

Incidentally, once I get fish, even tap water would be problematic. Mid-summer our tap water comes out at about 90 degrees, and much of the summer mid-80's. We don't have "cold showers" here that time of year. Staging storage inside to achieve a reasonable temperature is needed. I figure if it is at 75 (typical temp in that room) and goes into a 78 degree tank I'm pretty good, but 90 into a 78 degree tank not so much, even at 30% of volume.

At this point I just started making up 80 Gallons of water -- it will be ready sometime tomorrow. I'm going to draw down the tank about that much and add, hoping to get the ammonia at least into the 4-5 range (with the zeolite still running). At least into a range that's more measurable. Or maybe by then I'll be inspired by another choice, and worst case if I decide to empty the tank I'll have 80 Gallons already made.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Sounds like you are doing the best you can with what you have, and have researched the possibilities. Not sure if there are any more ideas that could help.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> Sounds like you are doing the best you can with what you have, and have researched the possibilities. Not sure if there are any more ideas that could help.


Ideas never hurt, and are always appreciated. Often just talking through things yields insight unrelated to the conversation.

But man, if I have to shovel all that substrate out, with the tank up at 36" already, that is not going to be fun. I actually wonder how much would come out with a siphon!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I do water changes like that in empty tanks: Stir the substrate a LOT and remove all the water. 
But if you want to limit the water change volume to the amount of new water you have on hand, then don't stir stuff, just keep the siphon deep in the substrate and slowly drag it from one location to another.


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## Reginald2 (Mar 10, 2009)

Linwood said:


> Ideas never hurt, and are always appreciated. Often just talking through things yields insight unrelated to the conversation.
> 
> But man, if I have to shovel all that substrate out, with the tank up at 36" already, that is not going to be fun. I actually wonder how much would come out with a siphon!



With sand, that's not really a bad way to go. It'll bring a lot of water with it though. I wonder if you could just sift out that fertilizer.

What's wrong with your tap water?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> I do water changes like that in empty tanks: Stir the substrate a LOT and remove all the water.
> But if you want to limit the water change volume to the amount of new water you have on hand, then don't stir stuff, just keep the siphon deep in the substrate and slowly drag it from one location to another.


I guess it depends on whether the root of the problem appears to be the Osmocote+. if it is, I don't have much confidence I can siphon them out from under 2-4 inches.

It's not so much limiting to the water on hand as worrying I have to start over on the filter media jump start (if I take it down too far it will be days before I can get enough water back to run the filters). I took about as much out of the existing 45G tank as I think I can safely. I don't want to kill it now that it's in the new tank if I can avoid it. Of course, could be dead already. 

Tomorrow morning will bring a clear head I hope, and results from 24 hours of the Osmocote in a glass, and 24 more hours of running the Zeolite (I managed to get a bit more in, so there's about two pounds running). Maybe there will be wonderful revelations.

Bump:


Reginald2 said:


> With sand, that's not really a bad way to go. It'll bring a lot of water with it though. I wonder if you could just sift out that fertilizer.
> 
> What's wrong with your tap water?


You know, in one sense nothing -- i.e. when I did it in the first tank, nothing died.

But it has pretty large mounts of something that drives the PH way up, like in the 8.6 to 8.8 range or higher. I'm still trying to get the PH down in the first tank. 

I also don't have a lot of faith in what else is in there. The pipes in the area are very old, very rusty. Every once in a while we get a burst of brown (something). We are due, literally this fall, to get new pipes in the subdivision (of course that's a government schedule). But I have no idea how much of the corrosion that comes out periodically iron, maybe some is lead, if it's got a lot of copper there go the inverts, right? 

And periodically we get this awful smell, a few hours later it goes away.

But... first time I set up, I just used it, added prime, and nothing died. But the water is so inconsistent I just don't think it makes sense to invest a lot of time and effort and trust it.

Oh... the local government says "our water is very good, trust us". So I'm probably just paranoid, since if they say it is OK, it must be, right? 

"Paranoia doesn't mean people are not out to get you." :icon_roll


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Filter media. Here are a few ideas:
Remove the media from the filter and float it in the tank water while the water is too low for the filters to function. 

Run the filters on a 5 gallon bucket that you customize the dosage of ammonia to no more than 3 ppm. This will do more to advance the fishless cycle than keeping them going on the tank with sky high ammonia. 

I agree, don't trust that water. Or the government. 

Once you get the water production going, keep it going and do however much water change is the amount of new water you are producing. 
If your system can only produce 10 gallons a day, then just do that much, every day. 

Osmocote is larger than most sand. Is your substrate all sand, not layered or mixed with anything? 
It will take some work, but you can sieve all that sand and hopefully remove the osmocote. 

Here is how I would do it:
1) Turn off filters. 
2) Push all the substrate to the left. 
3) Hold a colander or strainer or whatever will pass 90% of the sand on the right.
4) Scoop up the sand and dump it into the colander. One scoop at a time. 
5) Work it partially under water, like you are panning for gold. Sand falls out, Osmocote is trapped.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> Run the filters on a 5 gallon bucket that you customize the dosage of ammonia to no more than 3 ppm. This will do more to advance the fishless cycle than keeping them going on the tank with sky high ammonia.


I like that idea. I think I heard it before somewhere but it didn't sink in. I've got adequate hose to do that, a 5G bucket with maybe 3-4 gallons so the swirl won't overflow. That's a nice idea.



Diana said:


> 4) Scoop up the sand and dump it into the colander. One scoop at a time.


I get it, but before I could do that I have to pull out the rocks and driftwood, it will get in the way. And the plants (maybe I can save them in a QT I have going, if they are happy not rooted). 

But... after moving all that stuff, sifting the sand just isn't worth it. It's about 250 pounds. I can replace it for $40, and be sure there's no osmocote missed. If that's it.

But... not restarting the cycle helps. 

I just am hoping for a definitive source of the Ammonia. Even if that source is my initial dosing (which I'll assume if it stops increasing).


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I wrote about keeping the fishless cycle going in a bucket in my write up about the fishless cycle. I have done it even running a canister filter on a 5 gallon bucket. 

Finding the source of the ammonia is the best beginning of a solution. 
How is the Osmocote test coming along? How long has it been running? I would think just a few hours would be enough time to start to show something, and as little as overnight really would show if that was the source. 

You are right about sifting that much sand. If it turns out to be the Osmocote, then removing the sand is going to be easier than sifting it all. That is a lot of sand. New sand, or even some of the better substrates is a better investment. Maybe put the sand with osmocote in the garden?


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> Finding the source of the ammonia is the best beginning of a solution.
> How is the Osmocote test coming along? How long has it been running? I would think just a few hours would be enough time to start to show something, and as little as overnight really would show if that was the source.


It went in about 11 hours ago, I tested it after ... I think it was about 5 or so and got zero. I'll test in the morning closer to a full day. But I agree, if that's it, since I didn't bother covering it with substrate, I would think it would start reacting at least a bit real soon.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Well, one decision sort of made for me.

I woke up to a minor spill - the tank we had used for 15 years without leaking a drop was leaking into the floor, a couple gallons probably around the spigot. So I tried tightening it and it almost fell off (a couple more gallons). Got another pair of hands and we got it almost tight, but still dripping, with about 55 gallons of water in it.

So with choices of discarding that water or using it (we had no more storage), I decided to pull about 75 gallons out of the tank and replace it, with the RODI water, as yet not remineralized (I can add that afterwards).

Other data: I did test before I started, ammonia was still at least 8ppm in that tank.

The Osmocote+ test glass was up to .5 ppm, that's at about 20 hours of sitting with 4 granuals in a pint of water. Which to me is a bad sign, it's certainly leaking Ammonia(like) stuff into the water. How much of my 8ppm is that, vs. what I added, I don't know.

But by dilution I'm hoping to get down into the 5ppm range with today's water change, and will just decide later (after fixing my tank) what to do.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

:-(
Hope you can get the leak fixed, that it is only a plumbing issue.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Diana said:


> :-(
> Hope you can get the leak fixed, that it is only a plumbing issue.


Plumbing I can fix, and if not my neighbor is a plumber. 

I don't know whether to be delighted or bummed it failed now. Made me rush, but we fill that tank and sit it up high on a fridge during approaching hurricanes (we are in Florida), to have a good source of potable water if there is a problem. So it could have failed up there, while we were out....

This just took a few minutes and a shop vac (it's a tile floor). The real problem is it didn't give me time. 

Off to stop the siphon, should be about done -- takes a long time to siphon that much water.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

I wanted to put closure to this. I must have simply screwed up the initial ammonia dosing. The ammonia stayed really high until I knocked half out with a water change. It stayed there for a while and then dropped to zero, and it says zero except when I dose (still waiting for nitrites). 

So I think the whole ammonia-high was my making, somehow. The Osmocote may have contributed but I think only a minor amount, probably irrelevant.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

It is good to figure out where the problem came from. 
Is the leak fixed now, too? 

Re-read the fishless cycle, and keep the ammonia fairly low until the nitrite removing bacteria get going. 
Since getting enough water for a water change is difficult, be ultra cautious about not allowing the ammonia to get too high. 
The ammonia removing bacteria grow faster than the nitrite removing bacteria. If you feed them too much ammonia they will turn it into nitrite too fast, and the nitrite will rise beyond the level that the nitrite removing bacteria can tolerate. Usually dosing the ammonia to 3 ppm once a day is just fine, but in this case perhaps setting a limit of 1 or 2 ppm would be better until you are seeing good proof (ie rising NO3) that the nitrite removing bacteria is getting established. Then you could add a bit more ammonia to boost the population a bit more. 

Here is the fishless cycle:
Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I'm a little confused why you are adding ammonia at all? The benefit of establishing an ammonia cycle in a fish only tank is to ensure that ammonia waste does not build up in the tank and poison fish. This is not really a problem in planted tanks.

In planted tanks the ammonia cycle isn't really a cycle at all. At low levels of ammonia plants will absorb all the ammonia wastes and leave nothing in the water column to harm the fish. Plants essentially break the nitrogen cycle because they remove or greatly ammonia concentrations and do not allow each phase of bacteria to convert ammonia to nitrite to nitrates. So by adding ammonia trying to start the cycle you put the plants at risk (they don't tolerate high ammonia levels well as we found out) and there is no real benefit to it since the bacteria won't really be the main ammonia removers in the tank long term.

It is perfectly acceptable to keep fish in buckets, tubs, or any other containers without filters or gravel (where bacteria gets established) as long as their waste products (ammonia) do not build up. So as long as you aren't dumping fistfuls of beef heart into the tank every day and there is some way for the ammonia to be removed (water changes and plants) then ammonia will never build up and harm fish.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> I'm a little confused why you are adding ammonia at all? The benefit of establishing an ammonia cycle in a fish only tank is to ensure that ammonia waste does not build up in the tank and poison fish. This is not really a problem in planted tanks.


If I didn't need to cycle, then the ammonia would disappear rapidly without a buildup of nitrites. I've been running very high nitrites (enough to kill fish) for days now, and I have quite a few actively growing plants (especially a pile of wisteria that is going nuts). In fact in the period of high ammonia the only thing that suffered was dwarf hair grass and others tell me that die back is probably just from changing from emersed to submerged. 

So a fair amount of plants didn't remove the ammonia, but instead after a while it turned into nitrites that they didn't remove either.

On the other hand, I shoot in about 3ml of ammonia a day now, which is about 0.5ppm. It disappears within twelve hours. Just as one would expect in a cycled tank. Just the end product now is nitrites, which aren't going away.

I'd love to hear I don't need to cycle, but it doesn't seem to be a good ammonia processor if not.

Now if you are saying I could have added a very, very few fish, with a very small ammonia load, and the plants may have made that tolerable -- sure. I get that. It's a big tank and lots of plants. 

But my impression is if I put in 30 or so fishes on day one they would all soon be floating up to the top poisoned, as the ammonia wasn't going away from plants alone fast enough. I admit I did not test that hypothesis.


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