# What causes BBA? It's killing me!



## Nlewis

So what causes BBA? Every time I read on here about everyone points to inconsistent co2. IMO my co2 is consistent and at a high level, at the end of the day I'm at a 1 point ph drop if not more. I can't turn it up more than it is or I'll kill all my fish. I've trimmed it out, hit it with h202 and excel but it just keeps coming back. I started getting it about 2 months ago when I stopped dosing csmb for a week and it just won't go away.

Water parameters are as follows 

Tank - 40B
Lighting - high
Ph- 6.8 degassed, 5.8 peak co2 
Gh - 6
Kh - 6
Temp - 77
No3 - 40ppm 
Po4 - 5ppm (have a hard time with test as I'm always unsure of the color)
EI dosing:
Kno3 - 1/2 3x week
Po4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
Csm+b - 1/16tsp 3x week


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## Hoppy

BBA selectively grows on non-growing parts of plants, or at least that is what I have seen. Anubias is a very popular target for BBA because of its very slow growth. Also, leaves that have stopped growing - those farther down on stem plants, and dead leaves, all attract BBA. That seems to suggest that if your plants are always actively growing, in good health, they are much less likely to become hosts for BBA.

I have also consistently noticed that I get BBA when I don't have the same amount of CO2 in the water during each photo cycle. Even if I don't dose Excel in the same amounts every day I notice BBA starting up.

Other people have posted that not keeping dissolved organics out of the tank water - regular water changes - encourages BBA. And, likewise, not keeping the tank clean, the filter clean, and all debris removed from the tank, seem to encourage BBA. I think I have experienced that also.

Perhaps we can say that BBA is the opposite of the good housekeeping seal of approval?


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## PlantedRich

I don't agree with the idea of inconsistent CO2 as I was running a controller and letting it keep PH within .2 so the CO2 should have been level both day and night. However I felt that I created a bad situation when using Osmocote plus capsules. It seemed to be the cause of my phosphate shooting high. 
I read many reports stating that high phosphate will not be a problem but then my experience watching a lake seemed different. We lived on a very nice clear lake which had one arm which started to collect far more algae and the water was no longer clear. As a solution, the largest city in the area installed phosphate removal on their sewage treatment and the water cleared in a very short time. The local EPA experts blamed high phosphate levels for algae blooms. 
When using O+ tabs, I was getting BB even on my limestone rocks and equipment like filter in/out. I have gone back to using Flourish tabs and have far less BB. 
But then algae has been around far longer than people so I doubt that we will solve the riddle any time soon. I hope to just help it down some.


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## houseofcards

Yeah I don't really buy the inconsistent co2 viewpoint. The only thing I see to that is that if your tank is used to a certain level of co2 and then it drops for an extended period of time the uptake drops so your organic load in the WC is higher thus the BBA or other forms of algae find a niche. Whenever I see a tuff of the stuff I increase water changes, reduce lighting a bit, remove any dying or dead leaf, clean filter and it seems to stop. 

The dissolved organic viewpoint makes sense to me in that when we have a tank loaded with plants (much greater uptake) it's easier to control algae vs one with just a few plants. Same with a new tank. We get algae because the biofilter is immature and the plants aren't uptaking enough as they adjust. That is the reason you need more chemical/mechanical organic removal media when you start up.


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## mistergreen

Once they get in your tank, they'll do their best to grow. Long photo period/ High light seems to be the common denominator.


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## lovingHDTV

I've had BBA recently (hoping I've one this latest battel). For me it is on the rocks and the circulation pump, not on any plants. i had other algae issues, but resolved them with H202. The H2O2 treatment damaged teh BBA and the fish ate some of it, but I had to manually remove it in the end.

I did this by removing all the items with BBA (rocks, pump) and soaking them in chlorine water. I then used a stainless steel pot scrubber to scrub them clean. I then soaked in Prime water and back in the tank.

That was about 3 weeks ago and I've seen no sight of BBA since. I think that it is easier to keep it out, than to get rid of it. 

I don't know what causes it to start, but I've always had to manually remove it. 

david


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## Nlewis

I'll try cleaning the canister tomorrow and see if that helps at all. I think I cleaned it a little over a month ago, but will give it a go and throw in some fresh Purigen.


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## Leeatl

I was thinking back and I realized I have never had BBA in a tank with artificial plants , just the planted tanks . Don't know if this means anything or not , like I said just thinking...lol


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## mistergreen

Leeatl said:


> I was thinking back and I realized I have never had BBA in a tank with artificial plants , just the planted tanks . Don't know if this means anything or not , like I said just thinking...lol


It has to be introduced into your tank unlike other algae which is everywhere, that's my guess. They usually hitchhike on plants although I've seen it in non planted tanks.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## PlantedRich

I'm with Leeatl on not having ever seen it until I went planted. But that also comes with upping the lighting and adding ferts so it doesn't help me pin it to any single cause other than it does seem to come with plants. 
Maybe it is the simple fact that I used to fight to keep tanks clean and now I'm putting dirt in instead of taking it out?


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## Hoppy

It seems to have to be true that there is more than one way to stop BBA, since various people report good results with different corrective actions. The most "impressive" is Tom Barr's report that he took BBA infested plants and put them in one of his BBA free tanks, which had good CO2, and the infested plants all recovered as the BBA disappeared. My experience with it is that once I get it, I never totally get rid of all of it. It does become just a small nuisance maintenance issue sometimes, but it is still there. Keep in mind that I have low light, so at worst, it grows slowly anyway.


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## Leeatl

I am with Hoppy . I have had it bad , gotten rid of it , but it still rears it's ugly head here and there . A quick shot of Excel/glut takes it out , but it will pop up somewhere else eventually .


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## Hilde

Nlewis said:


> So what are come causes of BBA? Every time I read on here about everyone points to inconsistent co2.


It is a lot of times but not always. I had a problem with it when I started my tanks. I did not have the option to increase Co2. My nitrates were very low. I worked on increasing the nitrates. Plus added a 3hr siesta period in my light period. Lights on 3hrs/ off 3hrs/ on 3hrs on. The siesta period helps the most. When I try the mid noon affect, lights strongest at noon, the black algae comes back. When it pokes its head I start dosing with peroxide and increase the dosing of Metricide Co2 additive.

Bad algae is due to an imbalance. Imbalance can be caused by lights on too long, poor circulation, and over feeding fish.


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## Immortal1

Don't know if this will be of any use to you guys, but, at work I access to this product. At 7.9%, it contains at least twice the concentration of peroxide as what you can buy in the store. I have used it in my tank several times and it definitely is potent stuff. Turns bba red pretty quickly. I typically use this during a water change when the water level is below what I want to clean.
Advanced Peroxide Cleaner


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## PlantedRich

And for yet another "cure" whether it works or not? 
I had a chunk of limestone that was totally covered in BBA. But then I also do not spend much effort to fight algae as I have several African cichlids who do search the algae as if they were going to find some micro organism. Basic genes for them? Part of the old idea that all African mbuna eat algae that has been proven wrong. They eat from the algae but not the algae but either way I like to leave it. I feel it may keep the little buggers busy so they don't invent some other way to do me in! 
But finally I did want to move this rock to another tank and as a part of that I did want to knock the algae down. That part was complicated by the amount of java fern growing on the rocks and wood with some algae there also. So I settled for just doing a bleach soak on the parts that I could cover without getting too much of the plant soaked. The bleach soak did a decent job of killing the algae so I put it in the new tank. After a few weeks, I got the six new rainbow cichlids into the tank but it was a really empty looking 75! 
The solution that I had not considered showed up in a Craigslist ad and I went to pick up some free fish as simple "placeholders" while the rainbow grow. 
Ten small to tiny platies who absolutely love picking algae off the rock!

Now, before anybody has spasms about the combo, I am aware of potential conflicts as I do intend to breed the cichlids. But they are rainbow cichlids and I have kept them before. The combo is serving the purpose and if it gives me trouble, I will change it. But for now the tank looks much better. The rainbow cichlids are great little folks when they are calmed by the presence of fish who do not hide. Before, I had no fish in sight and now I have 16 fish I can see as well as a group who is plucking algae. 
Maybe turn some platies loose on your algae?
:wink2:


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## Hilde

Immortal1 said:


> Don't know if this will be of any use to you guys, but, at work I access to this product. At 7.9%, it contains at least twice the concentration of peroxide as what you can buy in the store. I have used it in my tank several times and it definitely is potent stuff. Turns bba red pretty quickly. I typically use this during a water change when the water level is below what I want to clean.
> Advanced Peroxide Cleaner


Looks to toxic for me to get near. I have a chem sensitivity problem. 

How do you dose it?

Bump:


PlantedRich said:


> But then I also do not spend much effort to fight algae as I have several African cichlids who do search the algae as if they were going to find some micro organism.
> Part of the old idea that all African mbuna eat algae that has been proven wrong. They eat from the algae but not the algae but either way I like to leave it. I feel it may keep the little buggers busy so they don't invent some other way to do me in!


:icon_lol:


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## Immortal1

I use a 5mL syringe and coat what needs killin. Pretty much works just like any other peroxide product, just has more kick.


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## Hilde

Immortal1 said:


> I use a 5mL syringe and coat what needs killin. Pretty much works just like any other peroxide product, just has more kick.


I would rather use Hydrogen peroxide 35% Food grade


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## Immortal1

Wow! Definitely would not want to get that on your skin. As for bba, I'm sure that would make short work of it.


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## Hilde

Here a Excell & Peroxide method.

Could you post a pic of the tank, full front?


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## Immortal1

Most recent pic I think.


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## mistergreen

Hoppy said:


> The most "impressive" is Tom Barr's report that he took BBA infested plants and put them in one of his BBA free tanks, which had good CO2, and the infested plants all recovered as the BBA disappeared.


I don't know. That sounds like the BBA disappearing from a tank dosed with 'dolomite' one user had.


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## houseofcards

High light makes it grow faster (as it does I think to every plant/algae), but definitely not a requirement for BBA. Go into any LFS that's been around awhile and look at some of their tanks. Most have lower light levels, lots of fish, a few plants (maybe) and you'll almost always find BBA on some cheesy decor in the tank.


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## PlantedRich

mistergreen said:


> I don't know. That sounds like the BBA disappearing from a tank dosed with 'dolomite' one user had.


To keep things confused, I would have to throw doubt on dolomite as a cure for the problem. The limestone rock I mentioned above is dolomite limestone and it certainly grows well on it! 
The difference between dolomite and dolomite limestone is that the limestone has not been processed to remove the other minerals it has.


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## Hoppy

Immortal1 said:


> Don't know if this will be of any use to you guys, but, at work I access to this product. At 7.9%, it contains at least twice the concentration of peroxide as what you can buy in the store. I have used it in my tank several times and it definitely is potent stuff. Turns bba red pretty quickly. I typically use this during a water change when the water level is below what I want to clean.
> Advanced Peroxide Cleaner


Here are the ingredients of that stuff: 
SECTION 3: COMPOSITION INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS
Chemical Name..............CAS No.............Weight, %
Hydrogen Peroxide........7722-84-1.............5-7.9
Sodium Octanesulfonate 5324-84-5.............0-5
Ethoxylate Alcoho..........68439-46-3...........0-5
Phosphonic Acid.............29329-71-3.......... 0-2
Water............................7732-18-5.........75-85 

Those ingredients don't add up to 100%, so something is missing.

Bump:


mistergreen said:


> I don't know. That sounds like the BBA disappearing from a tank dosed with 'dolomite' one user had.


Well, I never saw this with my own eyes, so I can't say, but it is hard to believe.


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## Nlewis

Leeatl said:


> I am with Hoppy . I have had it bad , gotten rid of it , but it still rears it's ugly head here and there . A quick shot of Excel/glut takes it out , but it will pop up somewhere else eventually .


Well what I have is more of a green variety and for whatever reason it seems more resistant to glut. Glut will eventually kill it but takes multiple spot treatments. It also will turn blue in color when treated and not red.


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## Joshism

When I used to do DIY CO2, I had BBA every time. Now I'm going injected, and I don't see any of it. Maybe it has something to do with the yeast and sugar method? Anyways, my solution back then was buying 10 Siamese algae eaters for my 140 gallon, and they took care of all the BBA in 2 days. There might be other reasons why you have BBA, such as your water parameters, overfeeding, too much photo period, etc.

Bump:


PlantedRich said:


> To keep things confused, I would have to throw doubt on dolomite as a cure for the problem. The limestone rock I mentioned above is dolomite limestone and it certainly grows well on it!
> The difference between dolomite and dolomite limestone is that the limestone has not been processed to remove the other minerals it has.


I poured dolomite powder in my aquarium, and it doesn't do anything to the algae. Maybe I need larger plants to use the dolomite. Maybe it depends on the plants you have too, because maybe dolomite helps it grow, which allows the plants to consume the nutrients faster so that algae don't have a chance.


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## Hilde

Joshism said:


> maybe dolomite helps it grow, which allows the plants to consume the nutrients faster so that algae don't have a chance.


That is not logical. As Tom Barr has said when the plants are not growing well the algae out competes the plants for the nutrients and thrives. It is like crab grass.


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## PlantedRich

So, reading over the answers and considering the question, "what causes BBA", I think I would say we don't know? 
Lots of ideas but no firm answer so this is when I would try a few things to see how it might work in my tank. Step one for me would be to try simple things. One is stop dosing phosphate and see if it moves in the right direction. I have the feeling that you will still be getting phosphate in the fish food but at least it may be a lower level. 
If you have Osmocote tabs under the sub. it may take a lot to get the phosphate lower but for lack of a really good answer, that is the way I would move.


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## Joshism

Hilde said:


> That is not logical. As Tom Barr has said when the plants are not growing well the algae out competes the plants for the nutrients and thrives. It is like crab grass.


Isn't that what I'm trying to say?


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## Hoppy

Hilde said:


> That is not logical. As Tom Barr has said when the plants are not growing well the algae out competes the plants for the nutrients and thrives. It is like crab grass.


No, that's not quite what I hear Tom saying. He says that algae require such minute amounts of nutrients to grow that there is always more than enough "food" for them, no matter what the plants do. He says, algae only compete for light, not food. When they coat leafs with their colonies they are stealing light from the plants. As I recall, and I'm not really up to date with Tom's latest ideas, he also doesn't know exactly what "causes" BBA, only what will keep it away, and that is lots of healthy growing plants. Presumably when we let the CO2 level fluctuate too much the plants become less healthy, wasting energy adjusting to the various levels of CO2. His other basic algae theory is that first you have to be able to grow or not grow a specific algae, whenever you choose. Only then can you do any good research on what causes that algae to grow. The last BBA statement I read on his forum, and it was not a new one, was that low levels of CO2, like 5-20 ppm, are an invitation to BBA, where levels of 30+ ppm resist BBA from starting to grow, or even continuing to live.


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## Joshism

Hoppy said:


> Hilde said:
> 
> 
> 
> That is not logical. As Tom Barr has said when the plants are not growing well the algae out competes the plants for the nutrients and thrives. It is like crab grass.
> 
> 
> 
> No, that's not quite what I hear Tom saying. He says that algae require such minute amounts of nutrients to grow that there is always more than enough "food" for them, no matter what the plants do. He says, algae only compete for light, not food. When they coat leafs with their colonies they are stealing light from the plants. As I recall, and I'm not really up to date with Tom's latest ideas, he also doesn't know exactly what "causes" BBA, only what will keep it away, and that is lots of healthy growing plants. Presumably when we let the CO2 level fluctuate too much the plants become less healthy, wasting energy adjusting to the various levels of CO2. His other basic algae theory is that first you have to be able to grow or not grow a specific algae, whenever you choose. Only then can you do any good research on what causes that algae to grow. The last BBA statement I read on his forum, and it was not a new one, was that low levels of CO2, like 5-20 ppm, are an invitation to BBA, where levels of 30+ ppm resist BBA from starting to grow, or even continuing to live.
Click to expand...

That makes sense because in filtered water containers with barely anything, algae grows.


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## roadmaster

PlantedRich said:


> And for yet another "cure" whether it works or not?
> I had a chunk of limestone that was totally covered in BBA. But then I also do not spend much effort to fight algae as I have several African cichlids who do search the algae as if they were going to find some micro organism. Basic genes for them? Part of the old idea that all African mbuna eat algae that has been proven wrong. They eat from the algae but not the algae but either way I like to leave it. I feel it may keep the little buggers busy so they don't invent some other way to do me in!
> But finally I did want to move this rock to another tank and as a part of that I did want to knock the algae down. That part was complicated by the amount of java fern growing on the rocks and wood with some algae there also. So I settled for just doing a bleach soak on the parts that I could cover without getting too much of the plant soaked. The bleach soak did a decent job of killing the algae so I put it in the new tank. After a few weeks, I got the six new rainbow cichlids into the tank but it was a really empty looking 75!
> The solution that I had not considered showed up in a Craigslist ad and I went to pick up some free fish as simple "placeholders" while the rainbow grow.
> Ten small to tiny platies who absolutely love picking algae off the rock!
> 
> Now, before anybody has spasms about the combo, I am aware of potential conflicts as I do intend to breed the cichlids. But they are rainbow cichlids and I have kept them before. The combo is serving the purpose and if it gives me trouble, I will change it. But for now the tank looks much better. The rainbow cichlids are great little folks when they are calmed by the presence of fish who do not hide. Before, I had no fish in sight and now I have 16 fish I can see as well as a group who is plucking algae.
> Maybe turn some platies loose on your algae?
> :wink2:


 Would be more inclined to turn the rainbow cichlid's themselves loose on the algae.
They are noted for eating algae and one of a few species of smaller cichlid's that have teeth for doing so.
I kept a small group of them with some keyhole cichlid's some year's ago, and was one of my favorite tank's.
Necropsy evidence suggest's that mbuna as well as some south American cichlid's do indeed ingest fair amount of algae.
just sayin.


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> No, that's not quite what I hear Tom saying.


Well following that theory has kept me from having BBA. It killed all of my plants in my first tank. I had a T8 over a 10g tank.


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## IntotheWRX

from my experience, it was keeping the CO2 high and consistent that got rid of my BBA. I mean high until my fishes are gasping and pearling on the plants at the best ive seen. I mean consistent as in 3-4 days without any changes to CO2 levels. 

BBA will grow on parts that aren't doing so hot. I make it hot for them by dosing 200% recommended liquid fertz.


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## houseofcards

Hoppy said:


> ... The last BBA statement I read on his forum, and it was not a new one, was that low levels of CO2, like 5-20 ppm, are an invitation to BBA, where levels of 30+ ppm resist BBA from starting to grow, or even continuing to live.


If his tank was running clean at 30+ and then he lowered it to 5-20 than yeah I could see that since he decreased uptake. In general 5-20 would be better than none given the same light, enough ferts, etc. Also it makes it sound like running 30+ co2 is an algaecide in itself.


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> The last BBA statement I read on his forum, and it was not a new one, was that low levels of CO2, like 5-20 ppm, are an invitation to BBA, where levels of 30+ ppm resist BBA from starting to grow, or even continuing to live.


I have low Co2 and keep it from coming back with the Siesta light period of 3hrs. When I try to make a high noon light period, which is what occurs in nature, the BBA starts coming back.


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## Hoppy

Since I started adding about 3-6 ppm of CO2 to my low medium light tank it looks like I now have a bit more BBA than I used to. My plants are growing much, much better, but I may have more BBA, so, for me, the jury is still out on whether using low CO2 encourages BBA, even while improving the plants health. That makes no sense to me, but BBA makes no sense to me either.


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> Since I started adding about 3-6 ppm of CO2 to my low medium light tank it looks like I now have a bit more BBA than I used to. My plants are growing much, much better, but I may have more BBA, so, for me, the jury is still out on whether using low CO2 encourages BBA, even while improving the plants health. That makes no sense to me, but BBA makes no sense to me either.


Do you have a 3hr light siesta? Have you checked your nitrates?


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## PlantedRich

I think this will be one that there will be no clear answer for a long time yet. With each of out tanks being different in many ways, I would expect things like algae to perform differently as well. Just thing that will vary and we can't measure very well is the CO2 in the water. We can know how much we bubble into some degree but how much do we lose? We can use a drop checker and judge colors but then we also know that is not very precise. We can measure our PH and guess at how much CO2 but then that also depends on what minerals are in our water doesn't it? Without far more precise measurement of CO2, how do we ever say we have 20PPM or 30+ PPM? 
Other than only having half as many bubbles per minutes, etc. how do we know when we have moved from one level to another? Do we just assume that the gassing off has not been changed in some way like a lower tank water level? 
I don't see much chance at getting a firm answer until we get a far better way to test the questions.


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## Hilde

PlantedRich said:


> I don't see much chance at getting a firm answer until we get a far better way to test the questions.


Nothing is written in stone when it comes to dealing with nature. It is just definitely an imbalance of the ecosystem that causes bad algae to thrive.


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## sohankpatel

I only have had BBA on some wood and on powerheads and filter pipes. Similar to what Hoppy said, it seems to only grow on things that dont grow, old leaves, and hardscape. A good solution I have is 2 SAE, they clear out algae quickly, but prefer fish food. The thing I have heard people say is that once they get older, they stop. They will stop regardless if they are full. If algae is a problem, I will let the tank go hungry for a couple days, then the algae magically is gone. They dont touch my plants. Flagfish are arguably better, they eat a ton of it, and once I got rid of them, hair algaes and BBA popped up on my driftwood. I got rid of them as they are nasty, they nip fins like crazy, and ate 1/2 of my DHG and all of the HC I was trying to grow. If you have tougher plants like swords and crypts, they are very good for keeping it under control, fine leafed plants are a no-go with these guys. Guppys and platies are pretty good, I often see my guppies eating hair algae off my plants, they dont eat a lot but they are pretty good. Not really the most on-topic post, but may be helpful for people trying to get rid of it.


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## Hoppy

PlantedRich said:


> I think this will be one that there will be no clear answer for a long time yet. With each of out tanks being different in many ways, I would expect things like algae to perform differently as well. Just thing that will vary and we can't measure very well is the CO2 in the water. We can know how much we bubble into some degree but how much do we lose? We can use a drop checker and judge colors but then we also know that is not very precise. We can measure our PH and guess at how much CO2 but then that also depends on what minerals are in our water doesn't it? Without far more precise measurement of CO2, how do we ever say we have 20PPM or 30+ PPM?
> Other than only having half as many bubbles per minutes, etc. how do we know when we have moved from one level to another? Do we just assume that the gassing off has not been changed in some way like a lower tank water level?
> I don't see much chance at getting a firm answer until we get a far better way to test the questions.


One way to get a better estimate of how much CO2 you have in the water is to change the KH of the water in the drop checker, so the color change you are looking for is easier for your eyes to determine with some accuracy. In my case, I'm intentionally adding only a few ppm of CO2, nowhere near 30 ppm. So, I switched to .5 dKH water, which turns yellow around 10 ppm. I know I won't get much more than 10 ppm with my DIY CO2, so not being able to see higher concentrations doesn't bother me. And, I can see the yellow shift much easier than the green shift. Now I can see the difference in CO2 in the water when the lights first come on, and the water is at its maximum amount of CO2, and after a few hours with the lights on, when the CO2 drops a bit. My accuracy isn't great, but it is a lot greater than when I had 4 dKH water.

I don't do a noon siesta with my lights. That will be an experiment for the future for me. Right now I am still struggling with making the DIY CO2 system behave. I have checked nitrates in my water, but I don't do any routine water testing. Until I see evidence that the level of NPK in the water has an influence on BBA I doubt that I will do that testing.


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> Right now I am still struggling with making the DIY CO2 system behave.


Good luck with that. I read that it does not give out constant Co2. I tried it and hate it. To me the cheapest pressurized system is a paintball system.


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## PlantedRich

Hoppy said:


> One way to get a better estimate of how much CO2 you have in the water is to change the KH of the water in the drop checker, so the color change you are looking for is easier for your eyes to determine with some accuracy. In my case, I'm intentionally adding only a few ppm of CO2, nowhere near 30 ppm. So, I switched to .5 dKH water, which turns yellow around 10 ppm. I know I won't get much more than 10 ppm with my DIY CO2, so not being able to see higher concentrations doesn't bother me. And, I can see the yellow shift much easier than the green shift. Now I can see the difference in CO2 in the water when the lights first come on, and the water is at its maximum amount of CO2, and after a few hours with the lights on, when the CO2 drops a bit. My accuracy isn't great, but it is a lot greater than when I had 4 dKH water.
> 
> Interesting point on moving the color change to a lower value. I'm just starting a tank that I plan to use pressure CO2 but at a very low level so this may be something to look over as I go along.


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## burr740

My humble understanding is that as long as CO2 remains above non limiting levels, it can go up and down without any (algae) problems. 

But when co2 up and down at a limiting level, or between limiting and non limiting, the plants become confused, so to speak, as it tries to adapt by allocating resources (energy) to either gathering CO2 from other sources (via rubisco production) or being able to use all it's resources for other things when CO2 is plentiful.

I believe having stable co2 is most important, regardless of how much it is. This goes along with the idea that healthy plants are the main deterrent. Plants take time to adapt to varying conditions, days or even weeks sometimes. Algae doesnt.

Also just from personal experience, big thing for me that that keeps away bba specifically, is maintaining very clean conditions with no organic waste or decaying matter laying around, this includes any dead or dying plant leaves.


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## houseofcards

burr740 said:


> ..
> Also just from personal experience, big thing for me that that keeps away bba specifically, is maintaining very clean conditions with no organic waste or decaying matter laying around, this includes any dead or dying plant leaves.


As most of you know by now this has been my rock solid position as well. Everything is based off of this for me.


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## Nlewis

PlantedRich said:


> So, reading over the answers and considering the question, "what causes BBA", I think I would say we don't know?
> Lots of ideas but no firm answer so this is when I would try a few things to see how it might work in my tank. Step one for me would be to try simple things. One is stop dosing phosphate and see if it moves in the right direction. I have the feeling that you will still be getting phosphate in the fish food but at least it may be a lower level.
> If you have Osmocote tabs under the sub. it may take a lot to get the phosphate lower but for lack of a really good answer, that is the way I would move.


Well you may be onto something here. Today when I got home I broke out the po4 test kit, test results pictured below. The vile on the left is out of the tap and the one on the right is tank water. Now these things make me feel like I'm color blind every time I use them, but to me it looks like it's in the 3-4ppm range. This is concerning due to the fact po4 is almost nonexistent in the tap water and I just did a 50% wc yesterday. So today being the start of the fert schedule I only dosed kno3 and will retest po4 on Wednesday before dosing. 

So other than algae, what will excess po4 cause? What can I look for and what are some possibities for the plants not using up the po4?


----------



## burr740

Nlewis said:


> Well you may be onto something here. Today when I got home I broke out the po4 test kit, test results pictured below. The vile on the left is out of the tap and the one on the right is tank water. Now these things make me feel like I'm color blind every time I use them, but to me it looks like it's in the 3-4ppm range. This is concerning due to the fact po4 is almost nonexistent in the tap water and I just did a 50% wc yesterday. So today being the start of the fert schedule I only dosed kno3 and will retest po4 on Wednesday before dosing.
> 
> So other than algae, what will excess po4 cause? What can I look for and what are some possibities for the plants not using up the po4?


To me when it gets that dark it could just as easily be 14 or 4.

Not sure if you read my journal or not but I recently had some discovery about really high P levels. They were off the charts for a while, like yours, from both heavy dosing (2.5 ppm 3x week) and also a fresh application of O+.

Dont know exactly what it was doing, but several plants had developed what appeared to be a severe Fe deficiency, which would not go away even with additional Fe or anything else I tried.. Also it seemed to make the tank hyper sensitive to micro nutrients in general. 

For a couple of months I ignored P as possibly being the problem because, well too much isnt supposed to hurt anything. But as soon as I got the levels down to a more appropriate range (1-3 ppm or so) several nagging issues went away almost immediately. The tank literally exploded with growth under a monsoon of pearling.

Id be willing to bet this is the problem with your aromatica. It's preventing the proper uptake of Fe somehow. Precipitation or binding maybe? I suspect it was also having the same affect on some of the other chelated micro nutrients in csmb.


----------



## Nlewis

burr740 said:


> To me when it gets that dark it could just as easily be 14 or 4.
> 
> Not sure if you read my journal or not but I recently had some discovery about really high P levels. They were off the charts for a while, like yours, from both heavy dosing (2.5 ppm 3x week) and also a fresh application of O+.
> 
> Dont know exactly what it was doing, but several plants had developed what appeared to be a severe Fe deficiency, which would not go away even with additional Fe or anything else I tried.. Also it seemed to make the tank hyper sensitive to micro nutrients in general.
> 
> For a couple of months I ignored P as possibly being the problem because, well too much isnt supposed to hurt anything. But as soon as I got the levels down to a more appropriate range (1-3 ppm or so) several nagging issues went away almost immediately.
> 
> Id be willing to bet this is the problem with your aromatica. It's preventing the proper uptake of Fe somehow. Precipitation or binding perhaps? And possibly affecting the utilization of other chelated micro nutrients in csmb.


I've skimmed through it a bit, but it's such a long journal. There is some O+ in the tank, but it was put in when the tank was started back in March. I would think by now it's been depleted, right?


----------



## burr740

Nlewis said:


> I've skimmed through it a bit, but it's such a long journal. There is some O+ in the tank, but it was put in when the tank was started back in March. I would think by now it's been depleted, right?


With new O+ I usually only notice a spike in the water column for maybe a week or two, then it stops. After that long I wouldnt think it's causing anything.

Long journals I start at the end and read them backwards until I lose interest


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## Nlewis

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not quick to pull out the test kits. The last time I tested po4 it was about the same color, so I feel likes it's probably been running this high for months. I'll have to go back in my threads and see what the issue was at the time I last tested it. I'm only about 8 months into the whole dosing aspect and it's a constant learning experience.


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## roadmaster

As I understand,you can reduce phosphate and indirectly give plant's a break from gathering CO2, for the phosphate then becomes the limiting factor with respect to plant development.
It is reported that some see less algae in this manner especially in low tech application with no additional CO2 being injected or supplemented with Excel,Metricide,etc.
some will argue that this is more algae control than plant growing for they.and other's are dosing,supplying the plant's whit more PO4 without any algae issues.
Macro/Micro package from aquariumfertilizer.com contain's everything except the phosphate for those who maybe aren't sure bout CO2 level's.can't or refuse to reduce lighting,or just want to see what affect it might have with their particular box of weed's.
I have additional dry fertz, but usually start with the macro/micro package and maybe add a little more of this or that if my purely unscientifically trained eye's detect a perceived need.
I am on board with keeping plant's tidy and filter's cleaned along with largish weekly water change.


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## Smooch

OP: When you buy plants, do you clean them or put them in QT?

If you get them, then plunk them in your tank, it's a invitation for all kinds of things to be introduced, including BBA. It doesn't start sprouting from nothing. Spores have to be introduced to your tank.


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## houseofcards

The spores are there IMO. I'll use the word impossible to completely omit them no matter how much your quarantine new things. It's a matter of them not becoming algae.


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## Smooch

houseofcards said:


> The spores are there IMO. I'll use the word impossible to completely omit them no matter how much your quarantine new things. It's a matter of them not becoming algae.


Is that like saying a person has a little bit of a cold or is a little pregnant? 

I know, people don't like it when I bring thing stuff up because agendas. That said, if a person is buying plants from tanks that are clean, then there shouldn't be a spread of BBA. I know Tom Barr likes to talk about how CO2 fixes everything, but CO2 isn't a algaecide. A tank cannot have issues with BBA if there is none around to begin with.


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## houseofcards

Smooch said:


> Is that like saying a *person has a little bit of a cold* or is a little pregnant?


It's like saying your never gonna get a cold/sick because you eliminated every single germ from your environments. Can you do that?


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## Smooch

houseofcards said:


> It's like saying your never gonna get a cold/sick because you eliminated every single germ from your environments. Can you do that?


Nope, you can't, But things like hand washing goes a long way than rubbing your face after touching something nasty like the handle of a grocery cart, ect... Same rules apply with plants.


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## houseofcards

Smooch said:


> Nope, you can't, But things like hand washing goes a long way than rubbing your face after touching something nasty like the handle of a grocery cart, ect... Same rules apply with plants.


Right, but this is just them existing in a tank, not necessarily infecting something. It's impossible, if there's one there's much more than one. I never QT anything and I don't have BBA. I get things from TPT members, LFS, wholesalers, etc. 

There's just no way to control it from an elimination standpoint just from a conditional one. Once the spore becomes algae, now it's like any other plant in terms of needs. Your walking around with all kinds of things in you, but if the conditions aren't right they "lay in wait"

Bump:


Smooch said:


> ... I know Tom Barr likes to talk about how CO2 fixes everything, but CO2 isn't a algaecide.


Well now your preaching to the Choir. I've been saying that until my face is as blue as a morning drop checker. 



Smooch said:


> A tank cannot have issues with BBA if there is none around to begin with.


You don't see algae spores, but they're there :nerd:


----------



## Smooch

houseofcards said:


> Right, but this is just them existing in a tank, not necessarily infecting something. It's impossible, if there's one there's much more than one. I never QT anything and I don't have BBA. I get things from TPT members, LFS, wholesalers, etc.
> 
> There's just no way to control it from an elimination standpoint just from a conditional one. Once the spore becomes algae, now it's like any other plant in terms of needs. Your walking around with all kinds of things in you, but if the conditions aren't right they "lay in wait"


I'm not willing to go through the same arguments that happened in Hoppy's thread about BBA. 

There are going to be people that believe that BBA magically appears from some void in outer space, just as there are those that will tout that CO2 is cure. That alone is silly as it's 'normal' for plants to be sold with no roots which means they are not doing much to help the tank out. I digress. 

A ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I never said anything about zapping every possible spore, germ or whatever that may go into a tank. Giving plants a look over and cleaning them reduces the odds of having problems later. That was my point. Although considering how many swear by Excel, one would think they'd put it to use as a preemptive strike against things like BBA. I find it ironic that it isn't used that way. 

If people want to do the drop and plant, that's their prerogative. I wish them luck! I was given the wonderful gift of ich from doing that. I bought plants once or twice after that and now I'm over it. I won't be ordering anymore any time soon. It's not worth the aggravation of dealing with problems that did not start in my tanks. I spend enough time cleaning up after other people, I don't need it in my hobby as well.


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## houseofcards

This is the wrong hobby to thing you can go sterile. The spore will not be denied.


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## Hilde

burr740 said:


> Also just from personal experience, big thing for me that that keeps away bba specifically, is maintaining very clean conditions with no organic waste or decaying matter laying around, this includes any dead or dying plant leaves.


I change my water at the most 1x a month. Consequently bottom dwellers can not live in my tank. I definately have organic waste in the tank. Another thing I have done which keeps BBA under control is that I switched from feeding flake food to pellet food.

Bump:


PlantedRich said:


> One is stop dosing phosphate and see if it moves in the right direction. I have the feeling that you will still be getting phosphate in the fish food but at least it may be a lower level.


This is especially true if the city is dosing phosphates in the water. Have found that Java fern and moss love phosphates. Thus the few that kill Java ferns don't have enough phosphates in their water. Since I have switched to New Life Spectrum pellet food I have not seen BBA.

Bump:


burr740 said:


> For a couple of months I ignored P as possibly being the problem because, well too much isnt supposed to hurt anything. But as soon as I got the levels down to a more appropriate range (1-3 ppm or so) several nagging issues went away almost immediately. The tank literally exploded with growth under a monsoon of pearling.


The EI and PPS fert regiments suggest dosing with phosphates. This is why I don't like regimented fert schedules.:laugh2:


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## Milkman

I agree with most of the points already listed. Also ensure you have good flow in all areas of the tank.

In my experience, unless it is a small isolated amount BBA needs to be physically removed and then prevented rather than just curing it. Even if that means cutting of large sections of plants and/or removing substrate. It's like trying to stop someone catching a cold when they're sitting next to someone with one. You need to remove the physical and when work on prevention.

So far I haven't seen BBA again 

I use Easy Carbo and it hasn't failed me.


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## roadmaster

Have seen black brush algae in tank's of mine holding nothing but gravel and cichlid's so plant's introducing the stuff in my case was not the issue.
Have seen it in store tank's as well with no plant's only fishes.
I do not doubt that plant's may carry spores with them, but suppose the plant's we purchase came from tank's with no algae, or tank was started and run for month's without issues or new plant's being introduced.
Has to be a trigger in my view ,and considering lot's of folk's over feed,over stock,perhaps are lazy at times with maint,and often times blast the lighting upon the plant's, while maybe not being able to also increase CO2 and nutrient's,,it might create such a trigger with excess organic matter in filter's,on substrate, and plant's that are struggling for More CO2 and or nutrient's due to possibly all of the above.
Seldom see the stuff in true Guru's tank's where everything is kept meticulously clean.(hmm)
I am often troubled by how the stuff appear's on hard object's like filter inlet /outlet pipes and maybe on one rock out of many,or one piece of wood out of a few.


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## Hilde

roadmaster said:


> Have seen black brush algae in tank's of mine holding nothing but gravel and cichlid's so plant's introducing the stuff in my case was not the issue.


I often wonder if the spores are in the water. I don't think ever goes away. Just like no tank has no algae. It is just a matter of keeping it under control. For example the BBA was gone but it attacked 1 of my plants. It just love to suck the nutrients up of some plants. Seems a bit like how misquotes bit some people constantly and not others.:laugh2:


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## houseofcards

It grows right inside a ceramic diffuser where the co2 is coming out, LOL. It also grows as @roadmaster stated on inlet/outlet tubes. On these structures as well as slow growing/dying plants there is a buildup of organics. Yes if you take a good macro shot of plastic inlets/outlets you will see all the crevices available for organic buildup. It's like live blood worms for BBA. 

The BBA spores are there, aren't they even in tap water, possibly air. You can't stop them, nothing has stopped them for billions of years. It's the right conditions that transform them into algae.


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## Hilde

houseofcards said:


> The BBA spores are there, aren't they even in tap water, possibly air. You can't stop them, nothing has stopped them for billions of years. It's the right conditions that transform them into algae.


Finally someone agrees with me.


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## jrill

houseofcards said:


> .
> 
> The BBA spores are there, aren't they even in tap water, possibly air. You can't stop them, nothing has stopped them for billions of years. It's the right conditions that transform them into algae.


We see that in trout streams. There is an algae in streams commonly called snot rock. They used to believe it was transferred from streams by fly fisherman's waders and boots. States even banned certain types of boot soles. Current studies tell us that was not the case at all. Scientists now believe the algae spores were always there but did not grow until conditions in the streams were right.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk


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## Hoppy

Hilde said:


> Finally someone agrees with me.


Enjoy that warm feeling while you can! Tomorrow is another day.

I'm intrigued by the idea that flake food could be an invitation to BBA. What could be the reason for that? I have fed flake food for many years, and I have had varying amounts of BBA for many years. That, of course, doesn't mean anything, but if there is a theoretical reason why flake food could be a problem that would certainly be interesting.


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> I'm intrigued by the idea that flake food could be an invitation to BBA. What could be the reason for that? .


A lot of flake foods have phosphates in them. I tend to overfeed my fish.


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## houseofcards

Hilde said:


> Finally someone agrees with me.


I feel your pain.



Hoppy said:


> Enjoy that warm feeling while you can! Tomorrow is another day.


:laugh2:


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## Hoppy

Hilde said:


> A lot of flake foods have phosphates in them. I tend to overfeed my fish.


I have, for years, dosed double the EI dosage for phosphate, to avoid green spot algae. Occasionally I have gone back to the standard dosage, and the GSA immediately shows up. During that time I have had minimal BBA, with the most when I have higher light or fluctuating CO2 or Excel levels. I doubt that phosphate is a cause of BBA, but I think it is worth some experimenting to either reinforce my doubt or make it questionable. To be continued.....


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## Hilde

Hoppy said:


> I have, for years, dosed double the EI dosage for phosphate, to avoid green spot algae. Occasionally I have gone back to the standard dosage, and the GSA immediately shows up. During that time I have had minimal BBA, with the most when I have higher light or fluctuating CO2 or Excel levels. I doubt that phosphate is a cause of BBA, but I think it is worth some experimenting to either reinforce my doubt or make it questionable. To be continued.....


Very interesting!! I believe the main reason is the quality of the tap water. For people whom have well have an easy time with plants, from what I have read.


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## Akaliman

i had a perfectlly healthy tank with lots of plants in it, and yet it still had BBA grew on the wood.
and now in my new minimalist tank, which I don't add macro nutrient at all, it has BBA as well. 

debris and organic matter tend to accumulate on hardscape, especially wood. if you touch the wood , you can feel it covered with slime. i believe this is bacteria colony. BBA love this (concentrated nutrient). notice that BBA NEVER grow on glasses. And I don't think i have seen BBA grows on rock either. has anyone? probably because woods are porous material, it collects organic matter & bacteria better.


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## Greggz

houseofcards said:


> The BBA spores are there, aren't they even in tap water, possibly air. You can't stop them, nothing has stopped them for billions of years. It's the right conditions that transform them into algae.


I'm with you here. Not too long ago the co2 on my high tech EI ferts tank went empty. I was busy and it might have been 3 or 4 days. Let me tell, I saw varieties of algae I have never, ever seen before. Sprung up out of no where. Had some long wavy stuff on the front glass. No other changes, no new plants, just the right conditions. 

And by the way, this ties into a comment earlier in this thread in regard to co2 being an algaecide. While I don't believe it is an algaecide, turn it off on your high tech tank and you will see it's presence has an effect that can't be denied.


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## houseofcards

Greggz said:


> I'm with you here. Not too long ago the co2 on my high tech EI ferts tank went empty. I was busy and it might have been 3 or 4 days. Let me tell, I saw varieties of algae I have never, ever seen before. Sprung up out of no where. Had some long wavy stuff on the front glass. No other changes, no new plants, just the right conditions.
> 
> And by the way, this ties into a comment earlier in this thread in regard to co2 being an algaecide. While I don't believe it is an algaecide, turn it off on your high tech tank and you will see it's presence has an effect that can't be denied.


Yep, I'm not surprised. Without the co2, uptake slowed so the system couldn't adjust and the spores got what they were looking for. Yes all related since the co2 acts an algaecide by increasing uptake, but you need the plant mass to have this effect.


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## Hoppy

Akaliman said:


> i had a perfectlly healthy tank with lots of plants in it, and yet it still had BBA grew on the wood.
> and now in my new minimalist tank, which I don't add macro nutrient at all, it has BBA as well.
> 
> debris and organic matter tend to accumulate on hardscape, especially wood. if you touch the wood , you can feel it covered with slime. i believe this is bacteria colony. BBA love this (concentrated nutrient). notice that BBA NEVER grow on glasses. And I don't think i have seen BBA grows on rock either. has anyone? probably because woods are porous material, it collects organic matter & bacteria better.


I like rocks in my hardscape, but I gave up on them because of really vigorous BBA attacks on all of my rocks! I haven't used any rocks bigger than a half dollar since then. So, my experience is that BBA grows on anything that gets bright light. The weirdest attack I had was BBA growing on top of the green dust algae I had on my tank glass! (The War of Algae!) If I remember correctly that was a couple of weeks before I virtually gave away my pressurized CO2 system, and switched to low light.


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## Nlewis

Well my phosphates seem to be getting down to a more reasonable level, pic below is test taken today. I haven't dosed po4 at all this week and tomorrow will be my next macro day. I'll go ahead and test again tomorrow to see if I should dose or not. If I do feel I need to dose I will cut my regular po4 dose in half. 

There are a couple things I've notices this week since leaning off the po4. 
- plants are pearling more than they have been
- dhg is becoming a dark green where it's always been a lime green color 
- pogo erectus looks to be growing faster
- getting dust and spot algae on the grass

Hopefully most of what I'm seeing are signs that the lower po4 are and improvement and it's not my mind playing tricks on me. Maybe you all with more knowledge than me can decipher these signs on whether it's related to po4 levels.


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## Ghia

I tend to agree with those that believe in the "clean tank" theory...i.e a tank with a minimum of organic waste.

A look at 3 of my tanks :
1. 50G L, well planted, good lighting, low stocking level,running for 2 years
2. 32G, well planted, medium/high lighting, running for 3 years 
3. 16G, well planted, medium lighting. running for 4 years
None of them with any form of CO2 added, all very well filtrated, good circulation and low stocking levels. WC in tank 1 50% weekly, tank 2 biweekly, tank 3 monthly or less. 

In tank 1, I used a tight measuring schedule and meticulous plant care. After it had matured (6 months), I started measuring Fe, K, NO3 and PO4 every week before WC. After WC, values were brought up to the same levels, and feeding was kept as constant/equal as possible from week to week. Thus, I got a fair impression of how much my plants actually used every week, and fertilizing this tank became very easy (same amounts of micros and individual macros every week). This tank has to date never had BBA _at all_. Some GSA, but nothing more than a little on the glass. (Levels are kept at 0.5 ppm Fe, 15 ppm K, 10 ppm NO3 and 0.7 ppm PO4.)

Tank 2 is more haphazardly fertilized/measured, has some BBA, but nothing plant care won't "fix". Same amount of GSA. Plant care at WC, also gets micros and some K at WC. Phosphate is never dosed, but stays at around 1 ppm, nitrate at 15-20 ppm. Elodea densa, Nymphoides "Taiwan" and Hydocotyle leucocephala grow _much_ better here than in any of the others. 

Tank 3 has always been "neglected" when it comes to upkeep and measuring schedule (other than pH). It gets some micros and K during WC. It regularly grows over with BBA (especially on java ferns, filter outlet, rocks), no GSA or other algae. Obviously this tank has higher levels of bio-waste, and higher levels of nitrate and phosphate. Crypts and java ferns grow well, "Taiwan" grows at a rediculous rate.

Excuse my boring tale, but to me it says that the BBA is always there...they will grow if you let them. Keeping a tight ship helps.


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## Tinanti

This discussion begins and ends with tank cleanliness. 

If I don't really keep on top of maintenance, I see it show up. 

Things you can do to reduce or eliminate bba:

- regular water changes. 50% every week if you can 
- clean canister filters monthly 
- add an additional canister filter or get a bigger one 
- remove ALL dead leaves, refuse, detritus 
- skim the surface, one way or another - this increases gas exchange and greatly assists the filter bacteria. You will have to turn the co2 up to compensate but it's well worth it 
- aerate at night (see above)
- go easy on stocking


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## LRJ

Tinanti said:


> This discussion begins and ends with tank cleanliness.
> 
> If I don't really keep on top of maintenance, I see it show up.
> 
> Things you can do to reduce or eliminate bba:
> 
> - regular water changes. 50% every week if you can
> - clean canister filters monthly
> - add an additional canister filter or get a bigger one
> - remove ALL dead leaves, refuse, detritus
> - skim the surface, one way or another - this increases gas exchange and greatly assists the filter bacteria. You will have to turn the co2 up to compensate but it's well worth it
> - aerate at night (see above)
> - go easy on stocking


Regarding the 5th bullet, is it sufficient to have good surface agitation, or does the surface literally need to be skimmed?


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## houseofcards

Hoppy said:


> I like rocks in my hardscape, but I gave up on them because of really vigorous BBA attacks on all of my rocks! I haven't used any rocks bigger than a half dollar since then. So, my experience is that BBA grows on anything that gets bright light. .


I don't know what the parameters are on this tank, but that surprises me. You should be able to enjoy rocks in your aquarium.


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## Tinanti

LRJ said:


> Regarding the 5th bullet, is it sufficient to have good surface agitation, or does the surface literally need to be skimmed?


I think it should be all the time. Even if you can't really see it much, it's there, interfering with gas exchange and cutting available light. Merely agitating the surface a bit during the day won't get rid of it. A little bit of that is good and is great for shimmer with LEDs, but not enough on its own. You can use a canister filter inlet attachment, an Eheim Skim 350 or an overflow.


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## LRJ

Tinanti said:


> I think it should be all the time. Even if you can't really see it much, it's there, interfering with gas exchange and cutting available light. Merely agitating the surface a bit during the day won't get rid of it. A little bit of that is good and is great for shimmer with LEDs, but not enough on its own. You can use a canister filter inlet attachment, an Eheim Skim 350 or an overflow.


Interesting, might have to try it out. Thanks for the response.


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## Hilde

I have seen tanks that were neglected. They glass was covered with green algae. No other algae present. There are other factors to consider. Like if there are spores of BBA in the water.


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## mik778866

There was a good discussion on this topic on this forum, that youll may find interesting.

See
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/index.php?threads/38375/


Regards
Muhammed

Sent from my ALE-L02 using Tapatalk


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## Nlewis

Today I did a partial water change while trimming the dhg carpet. I did this due to a lot of the bba is located in the carpet. The one thing I may need to do is remove a lot of the Ludwigia and replant some of the tops. I have not done this in quite some time, I've just been trimming it down and letting it get bushy.


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## Dane William

Hi all. I'm new to this forum and am a little puzzled by the posts in this thread. Over here we have a forum about plants and using ferts. To all the members on our forum the reason why you get GSA, BBA and staghorn is no mystery. Don't you really know that CO2 has nothing to do with it?

A brief description:

When a plant lacks one of the macronutrients, it will move what it can from older to newer leaves to survive. The older leaves hereby die and while doing so they'll leak carbohydrates which the BBA and staghorn can benefit from - they simply need the sugar. GSA is a sign of phosphate deficiency so at least phosphate is a missing macronutrient in the case you get BBA or staghorn on a plant with GSA. The plants could also be in need for other nutrients, but it seems to rarely be the case.
Often there will be phosphate in the tank, just not available to the plants as it's in the water, but not in the substrate. Most plants with roots have learned to produce 'air roots' which grow upwards from the soil to get hold of the phosphate in the water, but apparently this technique is not sufficent since they still get GSA.

So, to get rid of the reason for all these types of algae the solution is to give the plants what they need: phosphate.
I've made a thread on how to pull the phosphate out of the water and down into the substrate. Similar methods are used for watercleaning where you don't want the phosphate to up end in the sea where it will cause an algae bloom. It's also used to get lakes in balance if they have too much algae.

I used to have lots of BBA and GSA, but now I don't have any because of this method. It's sure better to prevent the algae from growing than fighting them afterwards.
And by the way: the BGA and diatoms are a sign of too much phosphate compared to nitrate in the water. These are cured along with the other algae.

I hope I don't offend anyone by pointing out the obvious, but as I said it puzzles me noone has mentioned it so far since the thread is about what causes the algae.


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## mik778866

Dane William said:


> Don't you really know that CO2 has nothing to do with it? .........
> 
> The plants could also be in need for other nutrients, but it seems to rarely be the case.. .......
> 
> 
> So, to get rid of the reason for all these types of algae the solution is to give the plants what they need: phosphates.



How I wish this hobby could be that straight forward. [emoji6]


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## York1

So just roll up some clay and let it dry. then into the substrate? No additives or anything else?


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## Dane William

Yep, spot on.

The Wallstad method (not based on red clay) is using potting soil under the granite or whatever. The idea is the soil will release ferts (for many years) so you'd not have to add ferts and it's hilariously cheap. But it could turn into a disaster if you don't get the right kind meaning it's not balanced between N and P at appx. 16:1. Also, some soil will have lime added which helps bind the phosphate in the soil, but it might not be stated too clear on the bag. I don't think she mentions binding phosphate to the soil since the plants won't show any deficiencies.

Because I keep fishes in all my tanks, they'll end up with the substrate filled with fish mulm anyway. So I prefer to let the fish mulm do that same job. It's easier to control than the potting soil.

In a normal tank it could take a couple of months before the substrate contains enough ferts in the form of fish mulm, so you could add a handful of potting soil (under the substrate of course) to get it started. Also add some eggshells. You'll find the recipe in my thread (it's my first).

People interested in the Walstad method can watch this teaser. But I have to warn you: if your plants are drowning in algae prepare yourself to 'watch and weep'. These plants are truly healthy and beautiful to watch.
I'll also suggest people to get hold of Diana Walstad's book "Ecologi of the planted aquarium". It's probably cheaper than keep on buying Excel or EasyCarbo to repair algae damages and the result is certainly more satisfactory.


----------



## houseofcards

Dane William said:


> ...In a normal tank it could take a couple of months before the substrate contains enough ferts in the form of fish mulm, so you could add a handful of potting soil (under the substrate of course) to get it started. Also add some eggshells. You'll find the recipe in my thread (it's my first)...


So what kind of tank would this work for? What's a 'normal' tank?


----------



## Hilde

mik778866 said:


> How I wish this hobby could be that straight forward. [emoji6]


Nothing is written in stone when it comes to nature. Thus there are a lot of theories and reasons why things don't work as expected. One thing unexpected we have to deal with is the chemicals in the water and algae spores.


----------



## Dane William

#92: that's the question. For me a 'normal tank' is a tank with both plants and fishes, shrimps or other animals. 
The two help each other. I think nobody can tell exactly how many fishes, snails and/or shrimps are necessary for a given amount of plants. This will depend on the size of the animals, the amount of food given, the types of plants, lighting, CO2 and other parameters. But we are so fortunate that plants have the ability to accumulate lots of nutrients for later use so they'll often thrive if we see to they have a storage of what they need.

Walstad also describes the concept Alleopathy which is a kind of chemical warfare the plants can make use of to outcompete algae. But since this uses ressources they can only use it if they are healthy. Algae can make the exact same kind of warfare though both to fight plants and other algae.

CO2 is not that necessary for plants since hardwater plants have learned how to pull CO2 out of CaCO3 (as far as I remember, it's a while since I read the book). This goes for a lot of the plants found in fish tanks among which are crypts, anubias, sagittaria, vallisneria, echinodorus. If the plants do this trick you'll often see a layer looking a little like chalk on the leaves.

Here's a picture from a time when I had it badly on an anubias:









So in this case adding CO2 helps the plants since they won't have to do their ion exchange trick and in the long run - as you can amagine - the plants will get problems with photosynthesis.

Sorry, got carried away again - for me it's an exciting world. But if you haven't read the book it's certainly 'a giant leap for aquarists'.

Back to the subject: it'll work for most tanks with plants and animals. If one understand the principles it's not that difficult to add a little extra ferts if needed. Too much ferts in principle shouldn't be a problem if the Redfield ratio is met.


----------



## fablau

Dane William said:


> #92: that's the question. For me a 'normal tank' is a tank with both plants and fishes, shrimps or other animals.
> The two help each other. I think nobody can tell exactly how many fishes, snails and/or shrimps are necessary for a given amount of plants. This will depend on the size of the animals, the amount of food given, the types of plants, lighting, CO2 and other parameters. But we are so fortunate that plants have the ability to accumulate lots of nutrients for later use so they'll often thrive if we see to they have a storage of what they need.
> 
> Walstad also describes the concept Alleopathy which is a kind of chemical warfare the plants can make use of to outcompete algae. But since this uses ressources they can only use it if they are healthy. Algae can make the exact same kind of warfare though both to fight plants and other algae.
> 
> CO2 is not that necessary for plants since hardwater plants have learned how to pull CO2 out of CaCO3 (as far as I remember, it's a while since I read the book). This goes for a lot of the plants found in fish tanks among which are crypts, anubias, sagittaria, vallisneria, echinodorus. If the plants do this trick you'll often see a layer looking a little like chalk on the leaves.
> 
> Here's a picture from a time when I had it badly on an anubias:
> 
> View attachment 677945
> 
> 
> So in this case adding CO2 helps the plants since they won't have to do their ion exchange trick and in the long run - as you can amagine - the plants will get problems with photosynthesis.
> 
> Sorry, got carried away again - for me it's an exciting world. But if you haven't read the book it's certainly 'a giant leap for aquarists'.
> 
> Back to the subject: it'll work for most tanks with plants and animals. If one understand the principles it's not that difficult to add a little extra ferts if needed. Too much ferts in principle shouldn't be a problem if the Redfield ratio is met.




Dane, what you describe is a very interesting solution and I'd like to know more. Could please tell us how much light your tank has? How long is your photoperiod? How much Co2 do you inject (if any)?

Thanks!


----------



## Dane William

In my 54 litre I inject CO2 from a half liter bottle reactor. In my 250 litre I use a 2 litre bottle.
Over my 54 litre I have 60 cm of 5630 LEDs - 40 cm in warm white and 20 cm cold white. It's lit for 13.5 hours a day.
Over the 250 litre I have 180 cm of 5630 LEDs with 115 cm neutral white and the rest in pure white, whichs give about the same combo as the smaller lamp. In wattage the small lamp is 9 watts and the big 20-something. The bigger lamp is lit for 14 hours.

Light is cumulative which means you could use double the wattage for half the period to give the same growth. But I have the tanks for my sake so I prefer the longer photoperiod. 

But neither the amount of CO2 nor the amount of light has to do with algae except of course if you overdo the light the plants will try to grow faster and could run out of nutrients which would then give you algae.


----------



## fablau

Thanks for the info Dane, yes, that's exactly what I am trying to understand here, you wrote that you don't even fertilize your plants, therefore that means they have everything necessary for your provided light and Co2 (which is often the first limiting nutrient)... So, I'd be curious to know how much PAR of light your tanks' substrate get. Do you happen to know that?


----------



## Dane William

No, I don't measure PAR since I find it misleading. A better measure would probably be PUR, but because of the price on a PAR-meter I did something alternative and made an experiment instead searching for the optimal color of the light to get the most out of whatever light you use.

I can show a little excerpts from the experiment, but a full description will have to wait:









From left to right it's 20 cm of 3528 band in red, green and blue resp.
The 4th is 10 cm of 3528 in each of the single colors. The last 4 on the right were each 5 cm of 5630 band in WW, NW, PW and CW resp.

















I also weighed all the plants. The purpose of the experiment was actually twofold: to prove that green light matters and also find the best of the white colors.
For this experiment I used sags which were cut in leaves and roots to be equal size and 4 cm of x-mas moss.
I hope the last two pictures give you a hunch what worked best and as you can see, the green light actually gave more growth to the sag than the blue one.


----------



## fablau

Dane William said:


> No, I don't measure PAR since I find it misleading. A better measure would probably be PUR, but because of the price on a PAR-meter I did something alternative and made an experiment instead searching for the optimal color of the light to get the most out of whatever light you use.
> 
> 
> 
> I can show a little excerpts from the experiment, but a full description will have to wait:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 678601
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From left to right it's 20 cm of 3528 band in red, green and blue resp.
> 
> The 4th is 10 cm of 3528 in each of the single colors. The last 4 on the right were each 5 cm of 5630 band in WW, NW, PW and CW resp.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 678609
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 678617
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also weighed all the plants. The purpose of the experiment was actually twofold: to prove that green light matters and also find the best of the white colors.
> 
> For this experiment I used sags which were cut in leaves and roots to be equal size and 4 cm of x-mas moss.
> 
> I hope the last two pictures give you a hunch what worked best and as you can see, the green light actually gave more growth to the sag than the blue one.




Very interesting experiment, that correspond pretty much to what I have read somewhere a while ago. But I am wondering why you say that PAR is "misleading"?! PAR, per my knowledge, is the only easy and reliable absolute measurement for planted tanks.

I am curious to know more on what you stated. Thanks.


----------



## Dane William

I've done a lot of reading on PAR, PUR and the like. PAR gives a false impression since it weighs all the colors in the spectrum equally.
Another mistake people often make is explaining the light needed by the absorption spectrum of plants. Instead the action spectrum should be used.

Here's a link to the first study showing the action spectra found for various agricultural plants from '72 (.pdf). This study was quite controversial since it showed green light is actually used by plants. Regrettably very few studies have been made since or at least published ones.

I know it's kind of religion-ish so I'll not start a big discussion in this thread which is about BBA, but it's a place to start if people want to be enlightened.

In my experiment I made one surprising discovery: all the test tanks were at some point hit by diatoms and cyano only not the red one.


----------



## fablau

From my own readings, I learned that there is some difference in growth according to the color spectrum, but not that much to justify measuring PUR instead of PAR. In my opinion and experience, PAR is the most reliable and yet cost effective solution to know the amount of light hitting plants.

In any case, I'd really curious to know what kind of PAR your tanks have in order to do more precise comparisons and discussions. Thanks.


----------



## Nlewis

It seems to be getting better on the BBA front. I've been manually removing some of it throughout the week as I can't seem to find a way to kill it, glut is just not effective on it for some reason. It's definitely not coming back as rampant as it has in the past weeks. Listed below are some of the things I've done, not sure which has helped the most. 

- PO4 was brought to a reasonable level (was high)
- increased surface agitation a bit
- allowing the skim350 to run while the co2 is on
- weekly trimming of DHG where most of the algae likes to grow
- increased fe dosage from .2 to .3ppm

With this I have noticed some good and bad with a few plants. My AR mini seems to be growing at a faster rate but the DHG has melted in a few spots. Pearling from all plants has increased greatly, I'm guessing this has something to do with increased O2 levels?


----------



## Leeatl

Just to confuse the issue of BBA even more.....I had BBA totally gone for a few months . Now it is coming back in 2 tanks . The only thing that changed is it was time to change the T8 bulbs . All of them on both tanks . Plants didn't notice much , but the BBA did . Go figure .


----------



## Hilde

Dane William said:


> The last 4 on the right were each 5 cm of 5630 band in WW, NW, PW and CW resp.


What do these abbreviations mean?


----------



## Dane William

Hi Hilde, thanks for asking. WW = Warm White, NW = Neutral White, PW = Pure White, CW = Cold (Cool) White.
The color of light is measured in K (Kelvin). The more red it contains, the warmer, and the more blue, the cooler.
WW has a wavelength of about 3,000 nm (nanometer) and below and CW 6,500 and above. The wavelengths of NW and PW are somewhere inbetween these though I haven't found a precise interval for these.

I've bought my 5630 LEDs from China and it is hard to be sure you actually get NW if you order it. I did something else and bought 10 rolls from different places. I then compared the bands and made my own collection of colors:









I've actually also made my own spectrometer, but I'll have to get back to the actual spectra at another time.

Fablau: I don't have a PAR-meter and don't know the PAR of my lamps and therefore am unable to give it to you. That's one other thing with PAR: a PAR-meter is too expensive so though a way to compare light levels only few know their PAR-values. I do know though that the lamp over my 54 litre is 9.6 watts and that my bands have about 90 to 100 lm/W. But that doesn't tell you much either since I've optimized it with reflectors so all the light is on the plants and fx not on the background.


----------



## Hilde

Dane William said:


> From left to right it's 20 cm of 3528 band in red, green and blue resp.


I have always thought that the lights color affects the plants growth. You have proven my theory. In this test the sag under the green light seems to have the best growth.


Dane William said:


> The 4th is 10 cm of 3528 in each of the single colors. The last 4 on the right were each 5 cm of 5630 band in WW, NW, PW and CW resp.


With this test the sag under the CW lights has the darkest green color.


----------



## Hilde

Immortal1 said:


> Most recent pic I think.


I am wondering if you get good circulation on the left side. What size tank is this? Lovely tank.


----------



## Immortal1

Thank-you on the complement. As for circulation, yes some does get over there. When I mess with the plants and stir up some dust it gives me a good idea where the water flow is. I can't really tell how much is getting around to the back of the Anubus but the filter intake is in the same location as the yellow pH probe. The 450 gph each fans do a good job at blowing dust particles all the way to the Java fern. FYI this is a standard 75g tank. Build thread is in my signature link.


----------



## Clinton Parsons

Whenever I am away, or lazy and slack off, I notice it creeps up. I step up my game with water changes, stir up the water and siphon detritus, clean the filter, it goes away almost immediately. 

So I have noticed a correlation with organic load. High organics and general lack of cleanliness triggers it, IME. It virtually *poof* disappears when I step up my maintenance game, things are better oxygenated, less decay, etc. 

I'm seeing roots that look like they are a magnet for ditritus, I see dirty leaves that should just be cut (dead, dying, discolored or decayed should be cut), I see a lot of not so small fish, substrate with what looks like quite a bit of mulm.... Looks like those large Anubias and java fern would trap a lot of debris and impede flow before it could make it to the filter. Can you move the java fern and mount it on the wood on the opposite end of the aquarium? I would trim away those unhealthy leaves. Looks like not much surface movement. 

I don't mean to be critical or anything. But I do think prevention important so you don't have problems later on.


----------



## Akaliman

I have a smaller tank, I only put buche plants there (very slow growth).
I give it plenty of lights. No fish there ==> no organic waste ==> low Carbon
I rarely do water changes, as this is my secondary tank, I sort of neglect it.
I add CO2, but its not on timer. so there are days when I forgot to turn it on, and there are days that i forgot to turn it off. 

do you think it has BBA on it?

Nope, no BBA at all. 

some algae grows on the glass, almost instantly after I add nitrate. 

So, I'll buy the theory posted here (What exactly causes BBA? Part 2 - Bacterial imbalance | UK Aquatic Plant Society) that BBA thrives when there is high ratio of C/N.


----------



## fablau

I agree with Akaliman, I have tried everything with Co2 but no avail. At the end I could control BBA by just keeping my tank clean. Even nowadays, when BBA creeps out, I just vacuum the top layer of my substrate very well, and it disappears in a matter of days.

Also, I know some people see more BBA in front of their outlets: be sure to have clean filters and clean pipes, it looks to me BBA thrives where high organics are presents and pumps help the distributions of those organics around the tank, and mostly in front of the outlets!


----------



## Nlewis

Well even after tearing the tank down cleaning everything, it's back and I can't get rid of it. I've tried spot treatments with glut and h202 that work at times. I've even been trying an overdose of glut at lights out, this green BBA seems to be a lot hardier than the black version.


----------



## Rinfish

The BBA in my tank went from flourishing to white and dead in the last week when I did a hard clean of my tank due to needing to move it to another location. Here's what I did:

- cleaned all canister filter tubing / added new carbon / added purigen

- deep cleaned portions of the substrate and vacuumed out the entire top surface

- have my lights shut off for 30 mins twice a day to keep co2 levels high and plants pearling. 

- double dosed excel 2x in a week with filter running (i did this out of frustration, but it may have also contributed)

- did a 60-70% water change (from needing to move my tanks location)

After watching it for a few days I can say its 95% dead. I'm having problems with my TDS being extremely high (likely caused by adding mineral salts and the like), but i'm convinced those things helped kill off whatever was hanging around.


----------



## fablau

Rinfish said:


> The BBA in my tank went from flourishing to white and dead in the last week when I did a hard clean of my tank due to needing to move it to another location. Here's what I did:
> 
> 
> 
> - cleaned all canister filter tubing / added new carbon / added purigen
> 
> 
> 
> - deep cleaned portions of the substrate and vacuumed out the entire top surface
> 
> 
> 
> - have my lights shut off for 30 mins twice a day to keep co2 levels high and plants pearling.
> 
> 
> 
> - double dosed excel 2x in a week with filter running (i did this out of frustration, but it may have also contributed)
> 
> 
> 
> - did a 60-70% water change (from needing to move my tanks location)
> 
> 
> 
> After watching it for a few days I can say its 95% dead. I'm having problems with my TDS being extremely high (likely caused by adding mineral salts and the like), but i'm convinced those things helped kill off whatever was hanging around.




I am pretty sure most of the killing comes from Excel. I don't understand what you mean with shutting off lights for 30 mins twice a day?

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Rinfish

fablau said:


> I am pretty sure most of the killing comes from Excel. I don't understand what you mean with shutting off lights for 30 mins twice a day?
> 
> Thanks for sharing!


No problem!

I have my lights on these types of timers http://target.scene7.com/is/image/Target/14440330?wid=450&hei=450&fmt=pjpeg and have it set so they turn off twice a day for 30 minutes. Basically, this is one way to help the co2 stabilize in your tank (since your plants wont photosynthesize while the lights are out, sucking up less co2 and letting it build back up) and also give you an overall decrease in light without losing much growth from your plants (therefore deterring algae). The lights turn on around 11 in the morning, and turn off at 3 and again at 5, finally shutting off for good at 7. Some folks lets their plants "rest" for a full hour during the day, but i like the 30/30 split.

I've found it helps counteract algae and give you more control over your light when you may have too much of it. =)


----------



## rezco

Nlewis said:


> Water parameters are as follows
> 
> Tank - 40B
> Lighting - high
> Ph- 6.8 degassed, 5.8 peak co2
> Gh - 6
> Kh - 6
> Temp - 77
> No3 - 40ppm
> Po4 - 5ppm (have a hard time with test as I'm always unsure of the color)
> EI dosing:
> Kno3 - 1/2 3x week
> Po4 - 1/16tsp 3x week
> Csm+b - 1/16tsp 3x week


Are you dosing additional potassium ie KSO4? I usually need 10X more potassium than nitrate to keep all the plants healthy and bba down to a minimum.


----------



## Nlewis

rezco said:


> Are you dosing additional potassium ie KSO4? I usually need 10X more potassium than nitrate to keep all the plants healthy and bba down to a minimum.


None at all, the only plant I have that ever shows signs of a potassium deficiency is hygro compact.


----------



## fablau

Rinfish said:


> No problem!
> 
> 
> 
> I have my lights on these types of timers http://target.scene7.com/is/image/Target/14440330?wid=450&hei=450&fmt=pjpeg and have it set so they turn off twice a day for 30 minutes. Basically, this is one way to help the co2 stabilize in your tank (since your plants wont photosynthesize while the lights are out, sucking up less co2 and letting it build back up) and also give you an overall decrease in light without losing much growth from your plants (therefore deterring algae). The lights turn on around 11 in the morning, and turn off at 3 and again at 5, finally shutting off for good at 7. Some folks lets their plants "rest" for a full hour during the day, but i like the 30/30 split.
> 
> 
> 
> I've found it helps counteract algae and give you more control over your light when you may have too much of it. =)




Got it now, thanks  very interesting strategy, I might use it!

Please, keep us posted about the BBA and let's see if it comes back...


----------



## Nlewis

This [censored][censored][censored][censored] is like herpies in my aquarium, it's the gift that keeps on giving. No matter what I do it just keeps coming back ten fold. Did a complete tear down, spot treatings, removal of infected plants, full triple dose metricide treatments, lowered light levels and cleaned the hell out of everything. Has it just come to the point of nuking everything with bleach and buying all new plants? I just don't know what to do!!!!


----------



## mistergreen

Nlewis said:


> This [censored][censored][censored][censored] is like herpies in my aquarium, it's the gift that keeps on giving. No matter what I do it just keeps coming back ten fold. Did a complete tear down, spot treatings, removal of infected plants, full triple dose metricide treatments, lowered light levels and cleaned the hell out of everything. Has it just come to the point of nuking everything with bleach and buying all new plants? I just don't know what to do!!!!


Really lower the lights not by a little. It'll take months.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## Hilde

Nlewis said:


> is like herpies in my aquarium, it's the gift that keeps on giving. No matter what I do it just keeps coming back ten fold. Did a complete tear down, spot treatings, removal of infected plants, full triple dose metricide treatments, lowered light levels and cleaned the hell out of everything. Has it just come to the point of nuking everything with bleach and buying all new plants? I just don't know what to do!!!!


Tearing down didn't work for me. You still haven't corrected the imbalance. How about trying Miller Microplex? Also keep an eye on your nitrates.


----------



## Hilde

So what did do with the tank? Was this your first tank?

I found another dry fert that contains millers and other ferts. It is EI(Estimative Index) dry ferts and millers Microplex from nilocg.com


----------



## Nlewis

Hilde said:


> So what did do with the tank? Was this your first tank?
> 
> I found another dry fert that contains millers and other ferts. It is EI(Estimative Index) dry ferts and millers Microplex from nilocg.com


It's a biotope now and no I have 5 tanks and all are planted.


----------



## Hilde

Nlewis said:


> It's a biotope now and no I have 5 tanks and all are planted.


so now the light is not as strong as the 1 used when you had algae?


----------



## Nlewis

Hilde said:


> so now the light is not as strong as the 1 used when you had algae?


Yeah, between the tannins and the fact that I'm only using 1 light now.


----------



## hachi

I'm pretty confused about what causes BBA, too. I've had it almost from the first week in a recently set up a low tech Spec V. Plants were bleach dipped before being added, driftwood was boiled and then soaked for several weeks before added.

Things I've read as causing BBA:

-Fluctuating CO2: During the 2-ish months it took to fishless cycle with ammonia, I did no water changes, only topped off with RODI water, yet it still grew.

-Too much light: Using the Spec V's stock light, on a timer 3 hours on, 4 off, 3 on again.

-Dirty tank, over feeding, accumulated mulm: Tank was empty of fish while cycling. Fertilizers were added sparingly, only when needed by plant consumption.

-Not enough fast growing plants: I added large amounts of floaters while cycling the tank to keep nitrates down. They had to be thinned weekly.

-Not enough flow: It's growing on the output, getting the full blast of the pump.

Spot treating with hydrogen peroxide didn't phase it at all. I've been spot treating with Excel (at about 1.5x the standard dose), and while that is killing it, it still grows back. It's recently started growing on spot algae that is on the glass.

I'm hoping that adding some ammano shrimp might help keep it back. I'm also open to any suggestions.


----------



## fablau

hachi said:


> I'm pretty confused about what causes BBA, too. I've had it almost from the first week in a recently set up a low tech Spec V. Plants were bleach dipped before being added, driftwood was boiled and then soaked for several weeks before added.
> 
> 
> 
> Things I've read as causing BBA:
> 
> 
> 
> -Fluctuating CO2: During the 2-ish months it took to fishless cycle with ammonia, I did no water changes, only topped off with RODI water, yet it still grew.
> 
> 
> 
> -Too much light: Using the Spec V's stock light, on a timer 3 hours on, 4 off, 3 on again.
> 
> 
> 
> -Dirty tank, over feeding, accumulated mulm: Tank was empty of fish while cycling. Fertilizers were added sparingly, only when needed by plant consumption.
> 
> 
> 
> -Not enough fast growing plants: I added large amounts of floaters while cycling the tank to keep nitrates down. They had to be thinned weekly.
> 
> 
> 
> -Not enough flow: It's growing on the output, getting the full blast of the pump.
> 
> 
> 
> Spot treating with hydrogen peroxide didn't phase it at all. I've been spot treating with Excel (at about 1.5x the standard dose), and while that is killing it, it still grows back. It's recently started growing on spot algae that is on the glass.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that adding some ammano shrimp might help keep it back. I'm also open to any suggestions.




Hachi, what's your substrate and dosing regime?


----------



## Nlewis

I think mine was brought on by too much light and no matter what I did it kept coming back.


----------



## hachi

fablau said:


> Hachi, what's your substrate and dosing regime?


Blasting sand with Seachem root tabs added every 2ish months. The tank gets tested every 2 days, and I add fertilizers accordingly. Usually ends up being 1/32 teaspoon of KNO3, 1/64 a teaspoon of KH2PO4, and .5 ml of Seachem iron twice a week. 50% water change on Sunday. Thanks.


----------



## Bananableps

I see a lot of speculation here, but I think in the experience of most people BBA has no strong correlation to any particular tank condition. The real cause of BBA is having a low _Like_ count on planedtank.net.

You can usually increase the number of Likes you get on a plantedtank.net post by lightly applying hydrogen peroxide to the affected area.


----------



## hachi

Bananableps said:


> I see a lot of speculation here, but I think in the experience of most people BBA has no strong correlation to any particular tank condition. The real cause of BBA is having a low _Like_ count on planedtank.net.
> 
> You can usually increase the number of Likes you get on a plantedtank.net post by lightly applying hydrogen peroxide to the affected area.


Instructions unclear, applied hydrogen peroxide to keyboard.


----------



## ed.junior

Bananableps said:


> The real cause of BBA is having a low _Like_ count on Plantedtank.net


Lol.

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## Bananableps

hachi said:


> Instructions unclear, applied hydrogen peroxide to keyboard.


If you're already very unpopular, you could try following up with a spritz of glutaraldehyde.


----------



## hachi

Bananableps said:


> If you're already very unpopular, you could try following up with a spritz of glutaraldehyde.


Well, my keyboard is melting, but the BBA seems fine.


----------



## klibs

from what i have seen...

too much light, too low plant mass / not enough nutrient/light uptake by healthy plant mass

'dirty' water conditions compound this issue but IMO root cause is too much light. i have seen other algae types come and go when adjusting ferts and stuff like that but BBA has been constant for me. it never responds to dosing. only light/plant mass.

packed tank with fast growing stems avoids BBA quite easily. i still have small amounts grow on hardscape no matter what i do...

if you get into trouble with BBA the hydrogen peroxide / excel spot treatment 1-2 punch works really well to get back in control (not a long term solution obviously)


----------



## Bananableps

klibs said:


> from what i have seen...
> 
> too much light, too low plant mass / not enough nutrient/light uptake by healthy plant mass
> 
> 'dirty' water conditions compound this issue but IMO root cause is too much light. i have seen other algae types come and go when adjusting ferts and stuff like that but BBA has been constant for me. it never responds to dosing. only light/plant mass.
> 
> packed tank with fast growing stems avoids BBA quite easily. i still have small amounts grow on hardscape no matter what i do...
> 
> if you get into trouble with BBA the hydrogen peroxide / excel spot treatment 1-2 punch works really well to get back in control (not a long term solution obviously)


I hadn't thought about it until reading your post, but this is in line with my experience as well: I've only had BBA in tanks with predominantly slow growing plants. As long as there are enough fast growing stemmed plants in the tank, I don't get bba.


----------



## fablau

hachi said:


> Blasting sand with Seachem root tabs added every 2ish months. The tank gets tested every 2 days, and I add fertilizers accordingly. Usually ends up being 1/32 teaspoon of KNO3, 1/64 a teaspoon of KH2PO4, and .5 ml of Seachem iron twice a week. 50% water change on Sunday. Thanks.




Don't you dose any traces besides Fe? That'd help.


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## fablau

klibs said:


> from what i have seen...
> 
> too much light, too low plant mass / not enough nutrient/light uptake by healthy plant mass
> 
> 'dirty' water conditions compound this issue but IMO root cause is too much light. i have seen other algae types come and go when adjusting ferts and stuff like that but BBA has been constant for me. it never responds to dosing. only light/plant mass.
> 
> packed tank with fast growing stems avoids BBA quite easily. i still have small amounts grow on hardscape no matter what i do...
> 
> if you get into trouble with BBA the hydrogen peroxide / excel spot treatment 1-2 punch works really well to get back in control (not a long term solution obviously)




Sorry to disappoint you guys, but I have fast growing weeds such as Hygros, Ambulias, and also tried with Hornworth, but BBA persisted.

Furthermore, I could make BBA disappear by just changing traces dosing twice, and at the same time all plants in my tank got better... unfortunately that never happened again, eventually it reappeared and other plants got stuck for whatever reasons. So, that also is not a possibility to exclude (ferts). From what I have experimented and read, a multitude of things can "cause" BBA, but maybe they are just correlations whereas the real cause is simply not having perfectly healthy and growing plants. I doubt you can get BBA if all your plants are growing perfectly 100%.

In my case, the only algae I have or I can get is BBA. Nothing more. And a lot of people get all other algae, but never BBA. Bottom line: if not all plants in the tank are growing perfectly, sooner or later your are getting algae, no matter if it is BBA, GSA, etc.


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## hachi

fablau said:


> Don't you dose any traces besides Fe? That'd help.


I use remineralized RODI, same as my 20 long. When I dosed traces (in the 20) it didn't seem to ever make a difference. Since it's a low tech tank with lower light and no co2, I don't think the plants are taking up traces faster than I replace them with water changes.

I'm open to adding them if I thought it would help the BBA, but the plants are growing well. Besides a couple of weeks of low nitrates while I was figuring out dosing, they don't seem to have any issues.


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## dkraft12

I originally got BBA by buying plants from a store that had BBA in its tank. It was when i first started in the hobby and didn't know any better. I was also running DIY co2 with a yeast reactor, and when it got low and stopped pumping as much co2 the BBA would break out and get everywhere. Getting rid of it i tried trimming leaves with BBA, spot treating with hydrogen peroxide, dimming my lights to their lowest setting, yet nothing helped. ultimately i took the tank down and started over. Since then I have only ever bought in-vitro plants, run co2 from a pressurized system or not at all and i've never had another BBA problem.


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