# Necessity of Biological filtration media vs just plain water polishing



## jkellyid (Jan 16, 2020)

Hey Guys, 

Previously in my aquarium experience I never much cared about biological filtration. I always worried myself with #1 high tank turnover rates, and #2 really good water polishing. My prior planted experience is pretty primitive compared to some of what I see on here, I had a 180 gallon tank plumbed into my 300 gallon sump that was filtering another 1,000 gallons of breeder tanks and a 300 gallon display tank. The tank flourished, but it may have just been an elaborate algae scrubber in the end, lol. 

I retired that setup and sold off the breeding business about 4 years ago and am focusing on getting back into the hobby. I noticed a few things. 

#1 Marketing is oppressive. There is so much marketing that if you don't dive into forums its very hard to get to the bottom of an issue. Substrate confusion was the reason I setup this account. 

#2 Purists make no sense. I had heard this issue previously before getting into breeding but the cost of discovering the truth was much lower, both in terms of time and money. For planted tanks there are just so many more variables it's hard to run a BS test on every sacred cow.

I'll give you an example of something I learned with my prior setup. I learned that a basic sponge filter per volume is going to do a better job of polishing water than all that expensive filter media you can buy. I replaced all "biological filtration media" with mechanical filtration, more sponges, more filter socks, and more flow. 

My prior foray into plants I learned that Aquarium plants eat Ammonia, Nitrites and Nitrates. I learned that typically if you have algae blooms its because you are missing other nutrients that your plants need to be able to consume those things, your iron, potassium, C02 or whatever is not adequate. 

So I ask all this to restate, why do I see "biological filter media" promoted so much? It just seems kinda counter intuitive to what you are trying to accomplish with the plants. Help me understand. I'm more inclined to focus on water polishing, purging particulates, etc from the system than spending that cabinet space and resources on dedicated media for optimizing the cycle.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

jkellyid said:


> So I ask all this to restate, why do I see "biological filter media" promoted so much? It just seems kinda counter intuitive to what you are trying to accomplish with the plants. Help me understand. I'm more inclined to focus on water polishing, purging particulates, etc from the system than spending that cabinet space and resources on dedicated media for optimizing the cycle.


Yes and no.... 

Biomedia is promoted so much because it makes them money period. Cheap sponges will work just as well for our purposes. 

Most us on this forum are not going to claim our plants are part of our filtration system, yes they will uptake nutrients, but they are far from filtering the tank. 

Not many of us here are only growing plants to aid in nutrient uptake... dozens of reasons to grow plants, and on my lists of reasons, filtering the water is way at the bottom.


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## jkellyid (Jan 16, 2020)

Quagulator said:


> Yes and no....
> 
> Biomedia is promoted so much because it makes them money period. Cheap sponges will work just as well for our purposes.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, I guess I was trying to discern if there was something different happening in a CO2 infused planted tank that I was missing. Else I'll just polish the snot out of my water as I would on a non planted tank and relish in the immaculate metrics I get when testing it w/o concerning myself with these premium filter media.

I literally have a 100 gallon tub of "bioballs" in my garage and another 10 gallons of ceramic rings, and another 10 gallons of some other biomedia type. I took them all out of my 300 gallon sump and just packed it with sponges. I'm not sure if this will embed properly so I'll try to post a photo of the sump, but that is 4" PVC and x8 - 32" long 100 micron filter socks. 









EDIT:
OK that works, so yeah I'm not trying to build this style of setup again. I'm just demonstrating my Asymmetrical approach to designing filtration on a tank. A simpler example is just doubling the sponges in Aquaclear 110 filters where I used those.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Marketing is good at selling mechanical, biological and chemical filtration, and high gph all in one filter. But the only things matter are good oxygenation to promote anaerobic conditions, and good mechanical to clarify water for my enjoyment.

The best biological filtration is good oxygenated flow over substrate, and I see no need for dedicated biofilter or bio media unless one overstocks fish in a bare bottom tank. Air sone, sponge filter, and wave makers are better and cheaper options to furnish oxygenated flow, not just from high gpd filters as marketed.

I don't guage the adequacy of filtration by gpd or media volume and type, but by the clarity of water, specifically how long it clears up after feeding messy fish.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I have a high tech setup and spent many years with it having no biomedia in the filter at all (including sponges). Plants consume most of the nitrogenous waste and BB in the tank take care of the rest. So, you can use only mechanical filtration, if you wish.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I also generally fill up my filter with sponges over time. I've never noticed any issue. Even when i accidently killed off the biomedia in my filter, there was no problem with the tank going through a cycle, etc.

I could see the biomedia being more important in the filter if you have a small nano that doesn't have alot of plant mass with a large canister filter, although the substrate might be able to tow the line.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Deanna said:


> I have a high tech setup and spent many years with it having no biomedia in the filter at all (including sponges). Plants consume most of the nitrogenous waste and BB in the tank take care of the rest. So, you can use only mechanical filtration, if you wish.


I have been keeping fish only tanks for decades without biomedia in the filters, only mechanical. As long as oxygenated flow goes over the substrate and decors, there are plenty of bb to consume ammonia nitrogen . Plants will compete with bb to consume nitrogen during photo period, and bb will take care of it off photo period. Plants provide even more surface area to populate bb so biomedia is even less needed.


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## lksdrinker (Feb 12, 2014)

Anything and everything inside of an aquarium is biological filtration media. If it has a surface for bacteria to grow on, the bacteria will do their thing. If whatever surface that bacteria chooses to grow on also happens to polish the water, then its even better!


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

lksdrinker said:


> Anything and everything inside of an aquarium is biological filtration media. If it has a surface for bacteria to grow on, the bacteria will do their thing. If whatever surface that bacteria chooses to grow on also happens to polish the water, then its even better!


Completely agree. I recently removed the HOB from an establish tank to cycle a new tank. The old tank is heavily stocked with angels that are incredibly messy eaters and also poop a lot. I replaced it with a new slightly undersized sponge filter, but doubled the sponge area by stacking a coarse & finer sponge. I carefully monitored for any ammonia/nitrite/nitrate spikes, but nothing. The sponge filter works beautifully for a fraction of the price, and doesn't seem to need cleaning as often. It's also much quieter--which matters since I'd moved that tank to my bedroom. 

The American Aquarium Product website waxes rhapsodic about the virtues of sponge filters. Thought it was more marketing hype, but it makes sense, and my experience thus far bears it out.


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## Bandit1200 (Dec 11, 2010)

I used nothing but 2 pond sized air-driven sponge filters from AAP in my 125 with no issues at all.


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

lksdrinker said:


> Anything and everything inside of an aquarium is biological filtration media. If it has a surface for bacteria to grow on, the bacteria will do their thing. If whatever surface that bacteria chooses to grow on also happens to polish the water, then its even better!


Yep, this. There's no such thing as only having mechanical filtration, for example, since it unless that's being replaced quicker than bacteria can grow it will be colonized. Sponges work just fine for biological filtration after all.

MOST people don't get that filters are mainly just a way of increasing the surface area in the tank for bacteria to colonize, providing them with conditions they need to thrive, and making sure water is circulated properly. That's why arguing about the "most room for bacteria to grow" on media is usually fairly pointless.

So when you see talk of tanks being "overfiltered" with extra canisters etc, they don't really get that you don't get extra bacteria by doing so, just extra room for them to grow and more water flow. Bacteria populate to the food load available, not to the amount of total filter space.

So as long as you have adequate space (which 99.99% of setups will), extra filters at best buy you finer debris removal, more water flow and increased maintenance windows. Oh, and bragging rights on forums lol.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Once the pores clog up and the filter fills with crud, it's nothing but a water pump and a mechanical media housing. Clean it out regularly for best results, both tank "health" and filter mechanical "health"


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Yeah, just not entirely sold ( so far by what is posted here) in taking out my bio-media and just using the mechanical for my wild discus. My couple of plants here and there in this aquarium hardly equates with the heavily planted systems most have here. Even then, I would need far more evidence that sponge filters would do it-- long-term- in a densely stocked discus tank where water changes weren't being done daily. Breeders do this, yes, they are the filter for these tanks- they change water daily and make the filter superfluous. The sponge filter in these bare-bottomed tanks are not mechanical, they are used for their biological benefits. 
Nor would I just use mechanical media in my 180 gallon. This tank houses very expensive fish--a few fish reaching 8 inches. I mean, lets put it in perspective, the biomedia for the 2 -FX6 filters in this tank costs less than one of these 8 inch fish. 

I do believe that bio-media can be omitted from some systems, but to claim that it is not necessary at all in all cases ( just a marketing ploy) is really not very convincing.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

I found that most biological bacteria in the aquarium will consume the vast majority of the waste in the aquarium. 
Having kept reef aquariums for 40 years. I was one of the first to adopt the Berlin reef system which relied on just live rock in the aquarium. You learned that all bio media outside of the tank became useless. An could be removed. Because the bacteria on the rock was consuming all the food that the external bacteria need to survive. It’s always funny to see people adding tons of bio media to their systems as extra. If there is no food for the bacteria they can not survive on the extra media.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

I've never used bio media in my filters for decades, and I used to keep heavy stocked cichlid tanks. Now I keep planted cichlid tanks with Penguin HOBs without installing biowheels for mechanical filtration only, which is necessary to keep the water clear for my enjoyment. Fish don't care. The reason I uninstall biowheels is to avoid reducing flow which is a trade off. In my fry and grow out tanks, I have no mechanical filter, only air drive sponge filters. But I keep up with regular water change in all my tanks, including substrate vacuuming, which is the ultimate filtration.

The idea of external bio media came with the invention of canister filters for home aquarium in the 80s. But long before it, UGF have been using gravel inside the tank as the bio media. Early power filters in the 70s provided mechanical filtration only, and added bio filtration later in the form of bio foam, bio grid, bio wheel and other names in marketing to compete with canisters and one another. Vendors make you believe that their bio media is the best and without it, your fish will die.

Setups that mandate external bio media for survival are heavily stocked bare tanks to house sting rays, bichir, Oscar and other tank busters that dislike substrate or aquacuture tanks for lobsters and food fish.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

EdWiser said:


> If there is no food for the bacteria they can not survive on the extra media.


 Have no idea where that rumor came from. Never happened in years of fish keeping. Found on the web and other fish forums.

Here is some information about beneficial bacteria and how they work. 

Beneficial bacteria grow to the size of your filter media. 

6.3. Over-filtration


https://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/shocking-truth-nitrifying-bacteria-colony/ "Autotrophs can survive approximately eight months in this state, feeding off of their own nutritional reserves.”


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Somefishguy said:


> https://acrylictankmanufacturing.com/shocking-truth-nitrifying-bacteria-colony/ "Autotrophs can survive approximately eight months in this state, feeding off of their own nutritional reserves.”


Acrylictankmanufacturing? Isn't that the company the show TANKED was based on?


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

Back in the late 1960's early 70's, for small tanks it usually was a glassfiber filled corner box filter with some "activated" coconut charcoal. I liked the old Metaframe Slim Jim HOB airlift powered J-tube siphon filters, running the same mix of glassfiber and activated charcoal.

Soon it was replaced by polyfiber when enough hobbyists complained about little glass splinters in their fingers, when replacing the media. It was always about "Put fresh media back in the filter to keep the filtration working", so you were fighting against establishing a filter full of bacteria to convert ammonia.

But it was state of the art back then..


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> I've never used bio media in my filters for decades, and I used to keep heavy stocked cichlid tanks. Now I keep planted cichlid tanks with Penguin HOBs without installing biowheels for mechanical filtration only, which is necessary to keep the water clear for my enjoyment. Fish don't care. The reason I uninstall biowheels is to avoid reducing flow which is a trade off. In my fry and grow out tanks, I have no mechanical filter, only air drive sponge filters. But I keep up with regular water change in all my tanks, including substrate vacuuming, which is the ultimate filtration.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This has so many assumptions about how what works for me in my experience necessarily will always work for all others in their experience that it is really hard to take seriously. 
I find it actually quite humorous how it bothers others that I choose to use bio media - when it is just “a waste of money.”. 
My money, my choice. My fish, my choice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I don't discount bio-filtration, what I discount is manufacturers making you think their's some magic going on with bio-filtration within the filter and you need to optimize it with all this special media.

There's also the idea that you need a ton of GPH to push waste into the filter. That's not a bad thing, but the waste is still part of the system until you clean it. If you remove a ton of plants from your tank and/or they don't grow well, we get algae. The BB did not replicate enough or quick enough to prevent it. The ammonia isn't processed quick enough. That's where plants are the best, water changes are probably next best since you do (should do) those more than most clean their filters.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I won't say completely get rid of biomedia, it offers some buffer for keeping a strong cycle going, especially in a bare bottom tank, so long as it's kept clean of 
course. What I do have a problem with is company's claiming to change it / replace it regularly, claiming it's the best thing since sliced bread, etc. etc. to make more money when it's simply false advice. 

No different than Caribsea claiming Eco-Complete has essential elements for plants (it's made up of these elements yes, but it's inert and therefore doesn't release them for the plants, completely misleading buyers. That's what bugs me about these marketing tactics.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Asteroid said:


> I don't discount bio-filtration, what I discount is manufacturers making you think their's some magic going on with bio-filtration within the filter and you need to optimize it with all this special media.
> 
> There's also the idea that you need a ton of GPH to push waste into the filter. That's not a bad thing, but the waste is still part of the system until you clean it. If you remove a ton of plants from your tank and/or they don't grow well, we get algae. The BB did not replicate enough or quick enough to prevent it. The ammonia isn't processed quick enough. That's where plants are the best, water changes are probably next best since you do (should do) those more than most clean their filters.




Yes, I have plants- but they don’t do real well so don’t know how much benefit they give me. Maybe they do , I don’t know. I change water religiously- - the 180 gets 50-75% weekly and the discus tank 2-3 50% weekly. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I won't say completely get rid of biomedia, it offers some buffer for keeping a strong cycle going, especially in a bare bottom tank, so long as it's kept clean of
> 
> course. What I do have a problem with is company's claiming to change it / replace it regularly, claiming it's the best thing since sliced bread, etc. etc. to make more money when it's simply false advice.
> 
> ...




I get what your saying.  Thank you. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> The BB did not replicate enough or quick enough to prevent it. The ammonia isn't processed quick enough. That's where plants are the best, water changes are probably next best since you do (should do) those more than most clean their filters.


Funny, I squeeze sponges frequently (except in canisters where hard to get to) and with every water change. I still see people online (Reddit especially) warn that your NH4 will spike and fish will all die if you clean out the entire filter or water change and cartridge change on the same day. It's just patently inaccurate advice IMO, but I suppose a hypothetical immature aquarium exists where such might be enough to push it over the edge. 



I think we can all agree that different systems have different needs. I'm also one who foregoes the use of biomedia but I keep lots of plants, few if any (and usually tiny) fish, and shrimp in every tank I own. There is so little waste created in my own tanks. I hardly feed, and honestly these tanks would not change much if I lost filtration completely and just used a powerhead. Like @EdWiser my reef days have a lot of carryover to how I approach freshwater aquariums as well as what has become appealing to my eye. Anything over 50% stocked by Aqua Advisor standards feels busy and crowded to me, others find their guidelines to be conservative. I have to remind myself that what I do is vastly different from most people's tanks, where the fish are plentiful and the star attraction.


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## EdWiser (Jul 14, 2015)

Somefishguy said:


> Have no idea where that rumor came from. Never happened in years of fish keeping. Found on the web and other fish forums.
> 
> Here is some information about beneficial bacteria and how they work.
> 
> ...




Actual I work with bacteria researchers





They are actual doing this type of research now.  Confirming many thing we learned back in the 90’s about bacteria in the reef aquarium. You can now test the bacteria on your Aquarium now to find out issues with the bacteria populations in the aquarium.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> The idea of external bio media came with the invention of canister filters for home aquarium in the 80s. But long before it, UGF have been using gravel inside the tank as the bio media. Early power filters in the 70s provided mechanical filtration only, and added bio filtration later in the form of bio foam, bio grid, bio wheel and other names in marketing to compete with canisters and one another. Vendors make you believe that their bio media is the best and without it, your fish will die.
> 
> Setups that mandate external bio media for survival are heavily stocked bare tanks to house sting rays, bichir, Oscar and other tank busters that dislike substrate or aquacuture tanks for lobsters and food fish.


Agreed. We didn't even know about the nitrogen cycle until we got into the 80's! For decades prior to that, all that I had was AC and floss ...and I threw it all out every week. Tanks also weren't heavily planted with rapidly growing plants (we had neither the light or the CO2) and we were told not to change more than about 20% of your water weekly. Yet, somehow, rather heavy stocking of fish lived through what you would think would be ammonia cesspools (pH was well above 7.0).

However, I will also say that today's filtering techniques provide for a much more flexible aquarium, particularly for noobs and/or difficult fish.


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## vikinglord13 (Nov 24, 2019)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Funny, I squeeze sponges frequently (except in canisters where hard to get to) and with every water change. I still see people online (Reddit especially) warn that your NH4 will spike and fish will all die if you clean out the entire filter or water change and cartridge change on the same day. It's just patently inaccurate advice IMO, but I suppose a hypothetical immature aquarium exists where such might be enough to push it over the edge.
> 
> 
> 
> I think we can all agree that different systems have different needs. I'm also one who foregoes the use of biomedia but I keep lots of plants, few if any (and usually tiny) fish, and shrimp in every tank I own. There is so little waste created in my own tanks. I hardly feed, and honestly these tanks would not change much if I lost filtration completely and just used a powerhead. Like @EdWiser my reef days have a lot of carryover to how I approach freshwater aquariums as well as what has become appealing to my eye. Anything over 50% stocked by Aqua Advisor standards feels busy and crowded to me, others find their guidelines to be conservative. I have to remind myself that what I do is vastly different from most people's tanks, where the fish are plentiful and the star attraction.


I'm curious, maybe that has to do with people cleaning their sponges/filters in tap water and the chlorine kills off the bacteria populations? Then again, if the colonies inside their tanks are well-established... that shouldn't matter I suppose?


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

vikinglord13 said:


> I'm curious, maybe that has to do with people cleaning their sponges/filters in tap water and the chlorine kills off the bacteria populations? Then again, if the colonies inside their tanks are well-established... that shouldn't matter I suppose?


There is a myth that when you clean the filter media, you should clean it with tank water, not chlorinated tap water, and always clean one filter at a time to preserve BB in the other filter. Nonsense. It sounds like BB have a conscience choice to live only in the filter media. 

I never had problem cleaning all filters at the same time, and with chlorinated tap water as there are plenty of BB reserve else where in the tank to repopulate the filter at no time. In fact, if you don't periodically clean the media, it can poison the BB bed by accumulation gunk and gunk eating micros that compete with BB for oxygen, and potentially turn anaerobic in a power outage. Canister filters are known to be vulnerable to anaerobic in power outage because it is not open to the atmosphere.


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

It's complicated because people use the word 'aquarium' like it represents one thing, but there is a pretty wide variation on what an aquarium is so what works for one won't for another. The type of substrate, whether you have plants etc. all completely change how your aquarium is running behind the scenes. 

If you have substrate (much more surface area than a bare bottom tank) and you have plants you have a massive amount of biological 'filtration' before you even start considering what filter is attached. Filters are just boxes that have good flow (plenty of oxygen) and lots of surface area for bacteria colonies - there is nothing special about that. In the right tank set up the whole tank is the filter chamber and the 'filter' is just aiding the circulation/mechanically removing large particulates to make it visually look good.


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## Streetwise (May 24, 2019)

I clean my foam in tank water, but I'll do it all at once. I don't need chlorine for adequate rinsing, so tank water is perfect for the job. Then I can feed that dirty water to my houseplants. I'm sure I've used tap water occasionally without disaster, but I've got tank water right there.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

vikinglord13 said:


> I'm curious, maybe that has to do with people cleaning their sponges/filters in tap water and the chlorine kills off the bacteria populations? Then again, if the colonies inside their tanks are well-established... that shouldn't matter I suppose?


Again, that is a myth that has been propagated for some unknown reasons.


Tap Water Rinsing


Simple math. I and many other have always used tap water to clean everything. Never an issue.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Somefishguy said:


> Again, that is a myth that has been propagated for some unknown reasons.
> 
> 
> Tap Water Rinsing
> ...


This is concerning. Let me tell you why.


*The "myth buster" that provides no qualifications to their assumptions that our water is not all created equal. 



*The assertion that "in all cases" biological filters in aquaria are created equally and will respond to a washing under tap-water with mathematical precision of safety.


* That mini-cycles do not exist. That even in a well-established aquarium there is not a temporary imbalance between bio-load and bio-filter where live-stock are vulnerable to the threat of toxic levels of ammonia and or nitrite.


I call bull- of course, with all due respect included.

PS
I wash my biological in tap water as well ( I do not have chlorimines)- have for many, many years-- but, I always assume a mini-cycle is possible afterwards. Not because Im just an "old-fashioned" girl who is oblivious to modern science; but, because I have, in fact, seen rising ammonia in my well-established aquariums many times as a result.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Discusluv said:


> This is concerning. Let me tell you why.
> 
> 
> *The "myth buster" that provides no qualifications to their assumptions that our water is not all created equal.


Well millions and million of filters are cleaned every day in tap water all over the world and you don't see millions of tanks destroyed. Chlorine in tap water is only .2-.5 ppm which is about one quart in one million gallons of water. Takes days to make it through the pipes and is just about nothing when it gets to the house. Chlorine does not kill instantly, proven with science. Higher doses are only used in storm runoff or water emergencies and still pose no issue. What you might be seeing is what is called Super Chlorination. Look it up.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

tamsin said:


> It's complicated because people use the word 'aquarium' like it represents one thing, but there is a pretty wide variation on what an aquarium is so what works for one won't for another. The type of substrate, whether you have plants etc. all completely change how your aquarium is running behind the scenes.
> 
> If you have substrate (much more surface area than a bare bottom tank) and you have plants you have a massive amount of biological 'filtration' before you even start considering what filter is attached. Filters are just boxes that have good flow (plenty of oxygen) and lots of surface area for bacteria colonies - there is nothing special about that. In the right tank set up the whole tank is the filter chamber and the 'filter' is just aiding the circulation/mechanically removing large particulates to make it visually look good.


 Yes, the substrate is _a part_ of the entire system that holds biological bacteria, but so is the filter. Take away a portion ( the extent of that portion depending on numerous variables which include age of biofilter) of the beneficial bacteria in either the filter or the substrate, you disrupt the balance that has been established between bioload and biofilter in its entirety. 

What about the temporary imbalance that exists when you disrupt that balance -- aka mini-cycle?
What if the aquarist doesn't have plants-? What about all the other variables: What if they just have a few plants, a certain type of plant, healthy plants/unhealthy plants? What if they set their aquarium up 2 months ago and another set theirs up 11 months ago? What if they have been medicating and the biofilter has been compromised? What about temperature- does this change our assumptions about all aquariums responding the same in distribution of beneficial bacteria? What about types of filters, substrates, water composition?

Bump:


Somefishguy said:


> Well millions and million of filters are cleaned every day in tap water all over the world and you don't see millions of tanks destroyed. Chlorine in tap water is only .2-.5 ppm which is about one quart in one million gallons of water. Takes days to make it through the pipes and is just about nothing when it gets to the house. Chlorine does not kill instantly, proven with science. Higher doses are only used in storm runoff or water emergencies and still pose no issue. What you might be seeing is what is called Super Chlorination. Look it up.


 Millions and millions, huh? Hyperbole does not make you scientific. 



Can you explain the controlled experiments you have made to demonstrate that mini-cycles dont exist in the aquarium and all of us still believing in them are "unscientific."


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Somefishguy said:


> Again, that is a myth that has been propagated for some unknown reasons.
> 
> 
> Tap Water Rinsing
> ...


And chlorimines? How does that align with the myth?


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Rather than escalating the argument, it might be useful to take a step back and see why this approach works for you, and doesn't for others. 

In a tank with a substrate, lots of hardscape & plants, there's plenty of surface area for beneficial bacteria. So even if you rise your filter in chlorinated water killing some or all of the BB on your filter media, there's plenty of BB in the tank to make up for it while your newly cleaned filter media gets recolonized. I recently took out my well-established HOB filter to cycle a new tank, and replaced it with a new sponge filter rinsed in tap water--and didn't have an ammonia spike or mini-cycle. Was that due to all the BB on the substrate, hardscape & plants? Or did all the plants immediately suck up any ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates that might have transiently spiked w/o showing up on tests? Or both? Don't know, and don't really care--since the bottom line was that my fish were fine. 

But in a bare-bottomed tank with no plants and lots of big cichlids or other prolifically pooping fish, you don't have that big reservoir of beneficial bacteria outside the filter. So killing off or greatly reducing the BB in your filter media with chlorinated water could well cause an ammonia spike & mini-cycle and harm your livestock.

All tanks are different in size, kinds of filters, the kind of water, how we maintain them, the plants & livestock we do or don't have in them, etc. To say something is categorically wrong when there are so many variables at play is, well, categorically wrong. These kind of absolutist statements are a disservice to new hobbyists who turn to this forum as a resource. We're all better served if we preface statements with "in my experience in my tank..." so people can take that advice in the right context. 

You don't have to make other people wrong for you to be right.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Rather than escalating the argument, it might be useful to take a step back and see why this approach works for you, and doesn't for others.
> 
> In a tank with a substrate, lots of hardscape & plants, there's plenty of surface area for beneficial bacteria. So even if you rise your filter in chlorinated water killing some or all of the BB on your filter media, there's plenty of BB in the tank to make up for it while your newly cleaned filter media gets recolonized. I recently took out my well-established HOB filter to cycle a new tank, and replaced it with a new sponge filter rinsed in tap water--and didn't have an ammonia spike or mini-cycle. Was that due to all the BB on the substrate, hardscape & plants? Or did all the plants immediately suck up any ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates that might have transiently spiked w/o showing up on tests? Or both? Don't know, and don't really care--since the bottom line was that my fish were fine.
> 
> ...


Thank you.
Well said. 

(me Exhale.)


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> You don't have to make other people wrong for you to be right.


This right here. Well said!


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

I wouldn’t rinse my filter in tap water if I am recycling a tank or keep big fish in a bare tank. In a cycled tank with substrate with or without plants, it’s impossible to uncycle it by rinsing the filter with tap water. as there are plenty bb reserve in the substrate to repopulate the filter. In my bare bottom fry tank, I always squeeze my sponge filter in the tank water during WC.

You still need bb in a planted tank because plants only uptake ammonium during photo period. With plants, the bb population will be stronger as there are more surfaces and photosynthetic O2 for bb and heterotrophic micros to live on.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> I wouldn’t rinse my filter in tap water if I am recycling a tank or keep big fish in a bare tank. In a cycled tank with substrate with or without plants, it’s impossible to uncycle it by rinsing the filter with tap water. as there are plenty bb reserve in the substrate to repopulate the filter. In my bare bottom fry tank, I always squeeze my sponge filter in the tank water during WC.
> 
> You still need bb in a planted tank because plants only uptake ammonium during photo period. With plants, the bb population will be stronger as there are more surfaces and photosynthetic O2 for bb and heterotrophic micros to live on.


 There is a difference between "uncycle" and "mini-cycle". Your making that distinction, correct? 

The notion that it is impossible to cause a mini cycle by cleaning a filter as long as you have a substrate material in aquarium is patently untrue. Ive seen it in my own experience many times.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Somefishguy said:


> Tap Water Rinsing
> .


If you want to talk myths. The same source about tap water rinsing as the link above also said this about algae. 

"Algae are a problem for most fish keepers. The problem is that most “newbies” try to fight the algae and eliminate it from their aquarium. This is simply impossible. The best way to fight algae is to keep nitrates low in the aquarium with water changes. This also keeps phosphorus low in the aquarium. This limits the algae growth in the aquarium. A fish keeper will get some brown and green films here and there, but the algae won’t get out of control."


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

If you have some time , this is an interesting thread on bio filters . Immortal1 was good enough to run an in depth experiment on bio media and even empty tanks . Check it out.....

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1045898-matrix-without-seachem.html


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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

Discusluv said:


> The notion that it is impossible to cause a mini cycle by cleaning a filter as long as you have a substrate material in aquarium is patently untrue. Ive seen it in my own experience many times.



I agree. Substrate isn't a magic cure - you can still upset the balance. If you remove a good portion of the overall bacteria population (whether that's changing substrate or removing a filter) that will still have a knock on effect. The tank should bounce back more quickly if there is still a big reserve though. Regrowing a bacteria population from 50% (e.g. if your bacteria is split between filter and substrate) is much quicker than from scratch.



Sometimes the cleaning could also be less directly linked. People will do a 'big clean' and disrupt (sometimes take out a rinse or replace!) the substrate, change out filter media, cut back overgrown plants etc. and it's not that you rinsed your sponges in tap it's that you disrupted all the different processes in one go. 



Again though it's so variable. Removing a filter can be fine for one person because, for example, they could have a plant mass that's in balance with the ammonia production and the filter wasn't doing much to start with. But that depends on plants, stocking etc. so many variables!


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Discusluv said:


> And chlorimines? How does that align with the myth?


Same. No difference. Not enough to be of any concern since it takes less than a minute to rinse your media. Again, chlorine/chloramine takes hours to kill.

Edit- I think I know what the issue is here. It's not the water rinsing, it's the folks who clean their filters too thoroughly and too often. All that brown 'gunk' that you see is you beneficial bacteria going down the drain that you took months to harbor on your media to get your water clear in the first place. As long as you have filter media that water can flow through and not around, you filter should go months without cleaning until it slows down. Then a quick rinse, like seconds, and you're good to go.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Somefishguy said:


> Same. No difference. Not enough to be of any concern since it takes less than a minute to rinse your media. Again, chlorine/chloramine takes hours to kill.
> QUOTE]
> Sometimes advice is truly bad and you must call it out for what it is. -- and this is it.
> 
> ...


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Discusluv said:


> But realize after-the fact that your system will go through a mini-cycle as it rebuilds to match the bio-load. For some, this mini-cycle will not be dangerous to livestock because plants will take up traces of ammonia, for others who do not, it most certainly could be. Ive seen it many times in my 30 years of fish keeping.


It may or it may not. I just swapped out all my media (canister and HOB) in a 10 year old 75 gallon tank. All depends if your media can handle it. Have over 40 inhabitants changed all media to a totally different media, vacuumed gravel, cleaned all glass and never had an issue. Ammonia never appeared because your BB will start to colonize in hours after finding the correct reasearch on the web and tested. No ammonia spike at all testing water every 12 hours for 3 days. Not even any cloudy water. This in a non planted tank.


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## aquapadawan (Dec 5, 2019)

walstad has what i took to be a bit of a cheeky blurb on this in her book, where she basically says that plants probably really do better with a lot of ammonium( that form of ammonia which is present at lower PH and non toxic to fish) but at the same time she doesn't reccoment anyone go adding ammonia, or lessen their bio. But low-key it kind of sounds like she might be suggesting one of those things


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

aquapadawan said:


> walstad has what i took to be a bit of a cheeky blurb on this in her book, where she basically says that plants probably really do better with a lot of ammonium( that form of ammonia which is present at lower PH and non toxic to fish) but at the same time she doesn't reccoment anyone go adding ammonia, or lessen their bio. But low-key it kind of sounds like she might be suggesting one of those things


I totally want to do a ph 5 blackwater tank and this isn’t helping me resist that temptation lol


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## aquapadawan (Dec 5, 2019)

AdamTill said:


> I totally want to do a ph 5 blackwater tank and this isn’t helping me resist that temptation lol


i'd go for it, why do stuff that everyone is already doing?


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> There is a difference between "uncycle" and "mini-cycle". Your making that distinction, correct?
> 
> The notion that it is impossible to cause a mini cycle by cleaning a filter as long as you have a substrate material in aquarium is patently untrue. Ive seen it in my own experience many times.





Somefishguy said:


> Same. No difference. Not enough to be of any concern since it takes less than a minute to rinse your media. Again, chlorine/chloramine takes hours to kill.
> 
> Edit- I think I know what the issue is here. It's not the water rinsing, it's the folks who clean their filters too thoroughly and too often. All that brown 'gunk' that you see is you beneficial bacteria going down the drain that you took months to harbor on your media to get your water clear in the first place. As long as you have filter media that water can flow through and not around, you filter should go months without cleaning until it slows down. Then a quick rinse, like seconds, and you're good to go.


This is another myth. The brown gunk is mostly decayed organic matter and heterotrophic bacteria that convert organics into inorganic ammonia to which nitrifying bacteria (BB) consume and convert into nitrate. Over time, the media will accumulate more of the heterotrophic micros giving less room for BB. The difference is very obvious in a fluidized filter as the the BB and heterotrophic will separate out in two layers of different color. Over time, the heterotrophic layer will get thicker and thicker and at some point, the filter needs to be back flushed to restore the predominance and efficiency of BB. The same is done in sewage treatment plants trickling filter which need to be back flushed periodically to restore the efficiency of BB. Most aquarists don’t know the difference and think that gunk is all good stuff and are afraid to clean it out. The right way to maintain the media is to periodically flush out the gunk allowing BB to repopulate. 

I don’t put bio media in my filters which I use solely for mechanical polishing, as I have plenty of BB in the substrate and plant surfaces. When I clean my filters, I replace the filter pads and rinse the filter basket with tap water. When I do WC, I vacuum the substrate lightly to remove scum.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

S


Tiger15 said:


> This is another myth. The brown gunk is mostly decayed organic matter and heterotrophic bacteria that convert organics into inorganic ammonia to which nitrifying bacteria (BB) consume and convert into nitrate. Over time, the media will accumulate more of the heterotrophic micros giving less room for BB. The difference is very obvious in a fluidized filter as the the BB and heterotrophic will separate out in two layers of different color. Over time, the heterotrophic layer will get thicker and thicker and at some point, the filter needs to be back flushed to restore the predominance and efficiency of BB. The same is done in sewage treatment plants trickling filter which need to be back flushed periodically to restore the efficiency of BB. Most aquarists don’t know the difference and think that gunk is all good stuff and are afraid to clean it out. The right way to maintain the media is to periodically flush out the gunk allowing BB to repopulate.
> 
> I don’t put bio media in my filters which I use solely for mechanical polishing, as I have plenty of BB in the substrate and plant surfaces. When I clean my filters, I replace the filter pads and rinse the filter basket with tap water. When I do WC, I vacuum the substrate lightly to remove scum.


 Sorry, your going to have to show proof with evidence.


Here is why the brown gunk is the good stuff.


6.8. Thorough Cleaning



Number 1 myth ... just click below.




*The brown “gunk” inside the filter bio-media or filter foam is trapped feces and it is beneficial to the aquarium to remove it frequently and thoroughly.** (This is by far the biggest and most damaging myth)*


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Somefishguy said:


> Here is why the brown gunk is the good stuff.
> 
> 
> 6.8. Thorough Cleaning
> ...


Says who? Some guy on the internet. 

He also says this.....

_Algae are a problem for most fish keepers. The problem is that most “newbies” try to fight the algae and eliminate it from their aquarium. This is simply impossible. The best way to fight algae is to keep nitrates low in the aquarium with water changes. This also keeps phosphorus low in the aquarium. This limits the algae growth in the aquarium._

And this......

_Algae can also take over an established tank if iron is added in excess to the water column. So adding iron to the water column in a planted tank is not wise. Iron, like phosphorus, is best only added to the substrate._

Not exactly the guy I would want to be getting advice from. He's got opinions, but many others have opinions and experiences that directly contradict his. 

IME, cleaning your filters more often is one of the easiest and best things you can do for your planted tank. Have never seen a ammonia spike from doing so. Seems kind of ridiculous to even suggest that somehow keeping filters clean starts a new cycle. On the contrary, you are likely to notice happier more colorful fish, plants thriving, and most importantly a noticeable reduction in algae. 

Keeping a tank uber clean is good for everything in a planted tank. It's probably the most common attribute among planted tanks that demonstrate a high degree of success. The key being demonstrate. Something you can see, not just something they talk about. And keeping filters clean is part of that process.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> Says who? Some guy on the internet.
> 
> He also says this.....
> 
> ...


Truth hurts I know. But you have a planted tank. Not too many issues with a planted tank with filters. They pretty much self run like folks say.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Somefishguy said:


> Truth hurts I know. But you have a planted tank. Not too many issues with a planted tank with filters. They pretty much self run like folks say.


The problem with the advice and your attitude is that your trying to apply a universal truth to all tanks. There is a vast difference between a natural, walstad type tank (one that relies on organics from within the tank to feed everything) and a hi-tech one that uses high light and requires an extremely lean water column organically. I don't think you really understand that. The walstad type tank uses lower light and easy to grow plants since the organic load is extremely high and trying to grow light demanding plants and using stronger light would cause severe algae issues. There are many iterations of those two extremes within the planted tank hobby that loading up on "gunk" would not be advantageous.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Here is a description of how a sewage treatment plant trickling filter works, which is similar to a sump system. The maintenance section says that the operator needs to periodically back flush the filter bed to remove scum and thin out the biofilm to restore treatment efficiency. You can do more search on the theory behind doing it. I am a retired environmental engineer with education in hydraulic engineering so my understanding of hydraulic and waste water treatment is second nature.

https://akvopedia.org/wiki/Trickling_Filter

I have never owned a fluidized sand filter, but have visited Segrest farm to inspect its commercial size FSF. They are giant glass or acrylic cylinders with moving sand bed you can observe nitrifying and heterotrophic bacteria segregated in layers with different color. The operator explained that when the heterotrophic bacteria layer gets too thick, it’s time to back flush to restore the efficiency. 

Many aquarists use canister filters and let it gunk up not realizing it needs to be periodically cleaned to optimize performance, and delaying cleaning can turn it into a anaerobic time bomb in power outage.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> The problem with the advice and your attitude is that your trying to apply a universal truth to all tanks. There is a vast difference between a natural, walstad type tank (one that relies on organics from within the tank to feed everything) and a hi-tech one that uses high light and requires an extremely lean water column organically. I don't think you really understand that. The walstad type tank uses lower light and easy to grow plants since the organic load is extremely high and trying to grow light demanding plants and using stronger light would cause severe algae issues. There are many iterations of those two extremes within the planted tank hobby that loading up on "gunk" would not be advantageous.


I am just showing alternate information that has been proven by the Dr. Bogert, PhD chemist, retired. Yes all tanks are different. I just don't see any information posted from 3rd party folks or other chemist to show their point, that's all.

Never said to load gunk up and forget it. Let it grow and clean your filter when the flow slows down, just not too thoroughly.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Somefishguy said:


> Truth hurts I know. But you have a planted tank. Not too many issues with a planted tank with filters. They pretty much self run like folks say.


Well this does happen to be a planted tank forum, so that tends to be the focus here.

But before I was high tech planted, I kept low light low tech aquariums for decades. So I do have a bit of experience with keeping tanks clean. And IME, keeping filters clean in a low light, no light, or high light tank is only positive for the health of the aquarium.

On a side note, I see you are new here. Every single post you have made is about this same topic, referencing the same website. Like I said, I read through a couple of the topics there and was not too impressed. The guy even quotes "Youtubers" as experts. Hardly the case in my opinion.

Do you yourself keep a planted aquarium? Have you yourself cleaned a filter removing the waste and seen a new cycle begin? Just trying to get an idea if you are speaking from experience or what you have read? 

And as always, pics of your own tank really helps folks understand how much weight to give to your comments. You should consider starting a journal so we can see the success you enjoy with your methods. I am always open to new ideas and learning, but don't put much stock in arguments that are primarily quoting some guy on the internet who offers other dubious at best information.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Somefishguy said:


> I am just showing alternate information that has been *proven* by the Dr. Bogert, PhD chemist, retired. Yes all tanks are different. I just don't see any information posted from 3rd party folks or other chemist to show their point, that's all.


Show me the study where it has been "Proven." Did he prove it in a Walstad Tank, an ADA tank, with soil, with inert substrate. Hi/Low light. Have to be honest the information in that link pertaining to this forum mainly, planted tanks and algae is so dated and/or disproven by thousands upon thousands of planted tanks right here on this forum that I can't even take it seriously.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> Do you yourself keep a planted aquarium? Have you yourself cleaned a filter removing the waste and seen a new cycle begin? Just trying to get an idea if you are speaking from experience or what you have read?


Yes, small 10 gallon planted with about 12 fish and snails. Never had any cycle problem at all. It's about a year old. I just don't worry about the filter and cleaning it that much.

Bump:


Asteroid said:


> Show me the study where it has been "Proven." Did he prove it in a Walstad Tank, an ADA tank, with soil, with inert substrate. Hi/Low light. Have to be honest the information in that link pertaining to this forum mainly, planted tanks and algae is so dated I can't even take it seriously.


That web site you can search for the information yourself at the bottom search engine. Very good site that answer a lot of questions and answers a lot of myths. Took me like 2 months on and off to only get through less than half of it. I have tested what I needed to check and it has been 100% spot on. But I don't have huge planted tanks like most here.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> Show me the study where it has been "Proven." Did he prove it in a Walstad Tank, an ADA tank, with soil, with inert substrate. Hi/Low light. Have to be honest the information in that link pertaining to this forum mainly, planted tanks and algae is so dated and/or disproven by thousands upon thousands of planted tanks right here on this forum that I can't even take it seriously.


You beat me to it.

Proven? LOL some of that information is so off base I don't even know where to begin.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> You beat me to it.
> 
> Proven? LOL some of that information is so off base I don't even know where to begin.


OK, where is the study that shows that from a 3rd party, university or published study?


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Somefishguy said:


> ...
> 
> That web site you can search for the information yourself at the bottom search engine. Very good site that answer a lot of questions and answers a lot of myths. Took me like 2 months on and off to only get through less than half of it. I have tested what I needed to check and it has been 100% spot on. But I don't have huge planted tanks like most here.


See that's the problem. Your assuming all planted tanks are the same. Do you really think your 10 gallon tank is representative of all planted tanks. What kind of tank do you have. Hi Light/Low Light, co2, non-co2. This stuff matters on what would work. There's never a universal fit for all tanks. It's not that simple.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

There are so many different styles and philosophies on planted tanks, that this one size fits all statement of planted tanks run themselves is quite ignorant. 

If your approach works for you, great. I have found that uber clean conditions lead to the most success for me.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Asteroid said:


> See that's the problem. Your assuming all planted tanks are the same. Do you really think your 10 gallon tank is representative of all planted tanks. What kind of tank do you have. Hi Light/Low Light, co2, non-co2. This stuff matters on what would work. There's never a universal fit for all tanks. It's not that simple.


Nothing special at all. No co2, just a 24/7 Aquaneat light light, low tech. Planted tanks are naturally cleaner just because of what plants do. That's all.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Somefishguy said:


> OK, where is the study that shows that from a 3rd party, university or published study?


There are none. 

There are no researchers writing peer reviewed articles about aquariums. Too many variables involved and no controlled studies, and frankly not a big enough hobby for anyone to do so. And even if there were, the only thing they could prove is what happened in that particular situation with those particular variables. Someone else may have a completely different experience. 

IMO, if you are looking for the answers to creating a successful aquarium in 3rd party, university, or published studies you are wasting your time. Believe what you see not what you read.

Bump:


Somefishguy said:


> Yes, small 10 gallon planted with about 12 fish and snails. Never had any cycle problem at all. It's about a year old. I just don't worry about the filter and cleaning it that much.


Well that's about what I expected. You yourself have never experienced cleaning a filter of gunk and starting a cycle. But you read it and now you are an expert on it. 

Any pics of your tank?


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## greenthings (Aug 29, 2019)

*Bio filtration*

For what it's worth. I use canister filters for mechanical filtration only and a wet/dry filter and sump for bio filtration with the largest variable speed return pump that will fit. Inline with the return pump is a fluidized bed reactor for more bio filtration. I ain't takin' no chances on a polluted aquarium. 

I compare the flow through the bio media to the churning water in a waterfall and river rapids. It even has the same smell as an unpolluted creek.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> You yourself have never experienced cleaning a filter of gunk and starting a cycle.
> 
> Any pics of your tank?


I'm sure not as nice as your tank. But per my previous post on my 75, I switched out all my media for more efficient media on my canister (370 gph) and HOB (350 gph), vacuumed all gravel, cleaned all glass. All fake plants with about 40 inhabitants, fish and crawdads and never had any mini cycle, cloudy water and no ammonia spike. That was 4 weeks ago now. You would think changing out everything would cause cloudy water and an ammonia spike. But since I found out how fast bacteria populate good efficient media, it all worked for me.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> This is another myth. The brown gunk is mostly decayed organic matter and heterotrophic bacteria that convert organics into inorganic ammonia to which nitrifying bacteria (BB) consume and convert into nitrate. Over time, the media will accumulate more of the heterotrophic micros giving less room for BB. The difference is very obvious in a fluidized filter as the the BB and heterotrophic will separate out in two layers of different color. Over time, the heterotrophic layer will get thicker and thicker and at some point, the filter needs to be back flushed to restore the predominance and efficiency of BB. The same is done in sewage treatment plants trickling filter which need to be back flushed periodically to restore the efficiency of BB. Most aquarists don’t know the difference and think that gunk is all good stuff and are afraid to clean it out. The right way to maintain the media is to periodically flush out the gunk allowing BB to repopulate.
> 
> I don’t put bio media in my filters which I use solely for mechanical polishing, as I have plenty of BB in the substrate and plant surfaces. When I clean my filters, I replace the filter pads and rinse the filter basket with tap water. When I do WC, I vacuum the substrate lightly to remove scum.


 Can you direct me to an academic journal/paper that states that there is no such thing as a mini-cycle in the aquarium? That despite what I have seen numerous times in my own aquarium in the last 30 years that Ive been keeping them, that my own observations of cause and effect are an aberration- myth? 

Just because you say something is a myth through your own analysis/study is not enough. You need to provide scientific collaboration that what you say is valid.

Bump:


Somefishguy said:


> Truth hurts I know. But you have a planted tank. Not too many issues with a planted tank with filters. They pretty much self run like folks say.


 The hubris of this guy-- 



Im really starting to believe this guy is a troll.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Somefishguy said:


> I'm sure not as nice as your tank.


I have no idea as I have never seen your tank. And frankly, don't expect to. Maybe you will surprise me but I am doubtful. 

It's the equivalent of the "dog ate my homework" excuse. Seen it loads of times here. Nothing new.

There are lots folks here who have many, many years of practical experience, and have demonstrated success. You could probably learn much from studying their methods. But I guess you have got it all figured out. Good luck to you.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

verb
1.
make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Can you direct me to an academic journal/paper that states that there is no such thing as a mini-cycle in the aquarium? That despite what I have seen numerous times in my own aquarium in the last 30 years that Ive been keeping them, that my own observations of cause and effect are an aberration- myth?


Agreed. I have experienced mini cycles several times over the years.

When I completely changed my substrate was one notable one. Ammonia levels spiked but only to about 1.0 max. Several small water changes over the course of a week or so and it caught up and dropped back down.

And sometimes you just don't know what caused it. Whenever I see any unusual algae I double check ammonia. Even a small spike can can have have a noticeable effect.

Bump:


Maryland Guppy said:


> verb
> 1.
> make a deliberately offensive or provocative online post with the aim of upsetting someone or eliciting an angry response from them.


LOL I was expecting you to drop in with some words of wisdom!:grin2:


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> I have no idea as I have never seen your tank. And frankly, don't expect to. Maybe you will surprise me but I am doubtful.


OMG... really? Really?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Somefishguy said:


> OMG... really? Really?


Well I have to say you surprised me. 

So a low light no CO2 tank with undemanding ferns and moss. Looks like a good beginner start. 

IMO, would greatly benefit from more maintenance and a good cleaning. That algae on the equipment and some plants is not attractive. Keeping dissolved organics low in a tank like this will pay dividends (water changes/filter cleanings). And maybe add a few ferts too.

Just saying it's a good start but we should always be looking to improve. Remember it's a journey and we learn along the way. Try increasing maintenance routine for a few months and see if there is a difference. That's the way tanks evolve and get better over time.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Greggz said:


> Just saying it's a good start but we should always be looking to improve. Remember it's a journey and we learn along the way. Try increasing maintenance routine for a few months and see if there is a difference. That's the way tanks evolve and get better over time.


Thanks. It's just about a year old. Never been cleaned except for a gravel vacuum (every 2 mos) and the filter media rinsed. Nerite snails and a few Amano shrimp do a good job for the bottom.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Somefishguy said:


> Thanks. It's just about a year old. Never been cleaned except for a gravel vacuum (every 2 mos) and the filter media rinsed. Nerite snails and a few Amano shrimp do a good job for the bottom.


 Just a friendly recommendation: 

Instead of taking on the roll of myth-buster right when you walk in the door as you've done in multiple posts, why not take the time to get to know our forum community and become a part of it. Do a friendly like on others shared pages. 

Tell someone they are doing a good job in their aquarium on some particular aspect instead of criticizing it. 

Sharing your aquarium in a journal and letting others get to know you. 

Admit that you are, along with sharing your knowledge, here to learn from others. Because, as we all know very well, none of us can claim that we have reached a point in the hobby ( or our lives in general) where we "know it all." 



Like I said, just a friendly recommendation.


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## Somefishguy (Jan 8, 2020)

Discusluv said:


> Just a friendly recommendation:


You are correct. I apologize for the quick tones.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> This is another myth. The brown gunk is mostly decayed organic matter and heterotrophic bacteria that convert organics into inorganic ammonia to which nitrifying bacteria (BB) consume and convert into nitrate. Over time, the media will accumulate more of the heterotrophic micros giving less room for BB. The difference is very obvious in a fluidized filter as the the BB and heterotrophic will separate out in two layers of different color. Over time, the heterotrophic layer will get thicker and thicker and at some point, the filter needs to be back flushed to restore the predominance and efficiency of BB. The same is done in sewage treatment plants trickling filter which need to be back flushed periodically to restore the efficiency of BB. Most aquarists don’t know the difference and think that gunk is all good stuff and are afraid to clean it out. The right way to maintain the media is to periodically flush out the gunk allowing BB to repopulate.
> 
> I don’t put bio media in my filters which I use solely for mechanical polishing, as I have plenty of BB in the substrate and plant surfaces. When I clean my filters, I replace the filter pads and rinse the filter basket with tap water. When I do WC, I vacuum the substrate lightly to remove scum.


 I would give the same recommendation to you. You have been here 2 years and made well over 200 posts and you have liked another members posts 1 time. Maybe start to make yourself a part of the community and take on an approach of learning as well as teaching. 



Arguments are not made entirely of Logos, they also require a dose of Ethos. And, if you do not remember that from your college writing courses you may need to look those terms up and see how they work in allowing the legitimacy of the other. Even in science-based arguments.

Bump:


Somefishguy said:


> You are correct. I apologize for the quick tones.


 Perfectly fine.
Lets start over with me welcoming you to our community. Go like some peoples pages, be friendly, stay awhile. And along the way in equal proportions of learning/contributing, attempt to try to explain why our thinking may be not entirely correct.


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## vikinglord13 (Nov 24, 2019)

Well that happened.

Thanks guys, I've learned some from that back-and-forth.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Discusluv said:


> Because, as we all know very well, none of us can claim that we have reached a point in the hobby ( or our lives in general) where we "know it all."


Ain't that the truth. 

I can go through my own journal and see times where I was convinced of something, but it evolved to something different over time. 

In the end, the only thing we can say for sure is what we observe in our tank/eco system, and even then we may be wrong half the time. As I like to say "your mileage may vary!"

But I will say that if you follow enough people who demonstrate success, there are common things that become apparent. And one them is keeping uber clean conditions. From Burr, to Vin Kutty, to Dennis Wong, and many more they repeat it over and over again. If most want to improve their tank, it's a great place to start and makes every single other thing easier.


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## butchblack (Oct 25, 2019)

FWIW I use a coarse pre-filter on my canister filter intake, use a coarse and a fine filter pad in my canisters with polyester fill sandwiched in between. My tank is heavily planted so there is a lot of surfaces for bacteria to colonize. I've also recently added a small powerhead with a container for poly-fil which adds circulation and water polishing. As others have mentioned, each tank is different and what will work on one, may not work well on another.


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Leeatl said:


> If you have some time , this is an interesting thread on bio filters . Immortal1 was good enough to run an in depth experiment on bio media and even empty tanks . Check it out.....
> 
> https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1045898-matrix-without-seachem.html


Was wondering if that old thread might make it in here. Thank-you


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Can you direct me to an academic journal/paper that states that there is no such thing as a mini-cycle in the aquarium? That despite what I have seen numerous times in my own aquarium in the last 30 years that Ive been keeping them, that my own observations of cause and effect are an aberration- myth?


We all describe it as such, but I wonder if the term "mini-cycle" isn't a misnomer. We get NH3/NH4 spikes, but never the nitrites. Reason is that the new/devastated biomedia just needs a little time to be re-colonized by all of the periphyton available elsewhere in our tanks. It's not actually going through the "cycling" process the way that a new setup does.

I've measure NH3/NH4 spikes in my own tank, sometimes without any identifiable causation.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> We all describe it as such, but I wonder if the term "mini-cycle" isn't a misnomer. We get NH3/NH4 spikes, but never the nitrites. Reason is that the new/devastated biomedia just needs a little time to be re-colonized by all of the periphyton available elsewhere in our tanks. It's not actually going through the "cycling" process the way that a new setup does.
> 
> I've measure NH3/NH4 spikes in my own tank, sometimes without any identifiable causation.


 Whatever ya'll want to call it is fine by me- I dont get too caught up in semantics. To me, however, this name makes perfect sense in that it tells me to be careful of the after-effects of cleaning my biological in filter to vigorously:
I usually take one ( of 2) of my FX6 filters on 180 outside and spray every inch of it every 2 months: sponges, bio-media, case, hoses- all of it. I then change about 25% water on days 2 and 4 to offset rising ammonia. I wasnt going to do water changes in this situation when first set this tank up. I thought,"Surely with all the substrate in this tank and another seeded Fx6 filter to repopulate the other cleaned filter I will not have ammonia". Wrong! 

The next 3 times I did this I detected ammonia. Under 1 ppm, sure; but, I have very sensitive wild fish ( wild discus, geophagus, altum angels, african tetras) that even 1 ppm of ammonia can stress and possibly lead to a secondary bacterial infections in the long-term. Of course, I had seen this cause/effect relationship in my discus tanks after washing my filter completely ( again, outside in tap) and just having the substrate to re-seed the filter; but, I thought the bigger tank would respond differently.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

Immortal1 said:


> Was wondering if that old thread might make it in here. Thank-you


You are welcome . That is one thread we all should read and mention when the time is right....


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## Ben3721 (Jan 20, 2018)

Regardless of the derailment of this thread I just wanted to post my experience.

Typically my beneficial bacteria lurks in my substrate and some in my filter. I've done substrate changes in the past then done a large water change, typically an ammonia spike follows. My plants do reduce some of the nitrates and probably absorb some of the barely detectable ammonia and nitrites. But honestly I'd rather have bio filtration to make sure there is a spot to hold extra bacteria if my plants arent enough to absorb it. Because if there isnt, youd be getting ammonia or ammonium depending on your ph, which is more harmful than nitrates.

As for rinsing in tap, if its chlorinated it will sterilize and leech once back into the tank. Which my rookie brother did twice from being lazy to his own tanks, which lead to some fish immediately dying and the rest dying later on from an ammonia spike, his unwillingness to learn drove him away from the hobby for awhile. That wasnt a planted tank however.

If a tank is super super dense with plants and it isnt overstocked it can survive without biological filtration, but the typical planted tank isnt the same.


This information and opinions are merely based on observations, personal experiences and might not match your own.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Asteroid said:


> Show me the study where it has been "Proven." Did he prove it in a Walstad Tank, an ADA tank, with soil, with inert substrate. Hi/Low light. Have to be honest the information in that link pertaining to this forum mainly, planted tanks and algae is so dated and/or disproven by thousands upon thousands of planted tanks right here on this forum that I can't even take it seriously.





Discusluv said:


> Whatever ya'll want to call it is fine by me- I dont get too caught up in semantics. To me, however, this name makes perfect sense in that it tells me to be careful of the after-effects of cleaning my biological in filter to vigorously:
> I usually take one ( of 2) of my FX6 filters on 180 outside and spray every inch of it every 2 months: sponges, bio-media, case, hoses- all of it. I then change about 25% water on days 2 and 4 to offset rising ammonia. I wasnt going to do water changes in this situation when first set this tank up. I thought,"Surely with all the substrate in this tank and another seeded Fx6 filter to repopulate the other cleaned filter I will not have ammonia". Wrong!
> 
> The next 3 times I did this I detected ammonia. Under 1 ppm, sure; but, I have very sensitive wild fish ( wild discus, geophagus, altum angels, african tetras) that even 1 ppm of ammonia can stress and possibly lead to a secondary bacterial infections in the long-term. Of course, I had seen this cause/effect relationship in my discus tanks after washing my filter completely ( again, outside in tap) and just having the substrate to re-seed the filter; but, I thought the bigger tank would respond differently.


1 ppm ammonium is non toxic to fish unless the pH is 8 or above, and I don’t think you keep those black water fish in high pH water. 

Black water fish came from water that is nearly sterile, and are sensitive to many environmental factors in crowded home aquarium. Canister filters are actually not the best for discus and other black water fish as they are nitrate and bacteria factory. Many normally harmless micros in home aquarium can be opportunistic and harm black water fish. I’ve been to discus nurseries and they prefer sponge filter in bare tank where they do daily small water change mixed in with RO water to keep clean and soft. So you may be drawing the wrong conclusion that rinsing one canister with tap water stress your fish. I have kept blackwater cichlid before and they didn’t do well in my slightly alkaline water as I don’t have RO water and can’t keep up with daily water change. They eventually got sick with bloat or hole in the head disease.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> 1 ppm ammonium is non toxic to fish unless the pH is 8 or above, and I don’t think you keep those black water fish in high pH water.
> 
> Black water fish came from water that is nearly sterile, and are sensitive to many environmental factors in crowded home aquarium. Canister filters are actually not the best for discus and other black water fish as they are nitrate and bacteria factory. Many normally harmless micros in home aquarium can be opportunistic and harm black water fish. I’ve been to discus nurseries and they prefer sponge filter in bare tank where they do daily small water change mixed in with RO water to keep clean and soft. So you may be drawing the wrong conclusion that rinsing one canister with tap water stress your fish. I have kept blackwater cichlid before and they didn’t do well in my slightly alkaline water as I don’t have RO water and can’t keep up with daily water change. They eventually got sick with bloat or hole in the head disease.


 Oh- is that right? Oh brother-- okay dude.
See this hand? Speak to it.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Greggz said:


> Ain't that the truth.
> 
> I can go through my own journal and see times where I was convinced of something, but it evolved to something different over time.
> 
> ...


When I started my planted tank, I read your journal thoroughly as your experience is most relevant to me as you are one of few aquascapers that keep big fish with plants. I am a long time cichlid keeper and took the challenge to try plants with cichlid 3 years ago. I am humbled by and learned a lot in my journey, but I am happy it works out and I can dispel the myth that big cichlid cannot coexist with plants. Dennis Wong is the go to expert for me now, but he didn't have the web guide 3 years ago. He learned from others too including Tom Barr whom he quoted often.

Aquatic plant keeping is not an established science and there are no peer review journals. Ecologic studies in natural environment are not the same and don't always apply to glass box environment. So there are many theories out there in plant forums, often contradictory and hard to know who to believe. Just algae alone, there are more theories on what trigger algae than the varieties of algae out there. The science of fish keeping, on the other hand, is well established. Aquaculture of food fish is a big biz, and there are scientific journals and magazines out there. University of Florida has an ornamental fish culture research center and curriculum to train fish vet and farming, but nothing on aquatic plant culture I am aware of. For water treatment, one can also borrow from waste water treatment plants experience as many of the same treatment units are adapted for fish tanks.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

@Tiger15

Question?



Asteroid said:


> Show me the study where it has been "Proven." Did he prove it in a Walstad Tank, an ADA tank, with soil, with inert substrate. Hi/Low light. Have to be honest the information in that link pertaining to this forum mainly, planted tanks and algae is so dated and/or disproven by thousands upon thousands of planted tanks right here on this forum that I can't even take it seriously.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Ben3721 said:


> But honestly I'd rather have bio filtration to make sure there is a spot to hold extra bacteria if my plants arent enough to absorb it. Because if there isnt, youd be getting ammonia or ammonium depending on your ph, which is more harmful than nitrates.
> 
> If a tank is super super dense with plants and it isnt overstocked it can survive without biological filtration, but the typical planted tank isnt the same.


Completely agree with this belt & suspenders approach. Sure, you can usually rely on your plants & substrate to do the job if you've killed off the beneficial bacteria in your filter by cleaning with tap water. But if a fish dies while you're away, for example, and causes an ammonia spike--some redundancy can save the day.

Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it a good idea. Better safe than sorry....


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## AdamTill (Jan 22, 2015)

aquapadawan said:


> i'd go for it, why do stuff that everyone is already doing?


Less that, and more than I don't need another project lol


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> 1 ppm ammonium is non toxic to fish unless the pH is 8 or above, and I don’t think you keep those black water fish in high pH water.
> 
> Black water fish came from water that is nearly sterile, and are sensitive to many environmental factors in crowded home aquarium. Canister filters are actually not the best for discus and other black water fish as they are nitrate and bacteria factory. Many normally harmless micros in home aquarium can be opportunistic and harm black water fish. I’ve been to discus nurseries and they prefer sponge filter in bare tank where they do daily small water change mixed in with RO water to keep clean and soft. So you may be drawing the wrong conclusion that rinsing one canister with tap water stress your fish. I have kept blackwater cichlid before and they didn’t do well in my slightly alkaline water as I don’t have RO water and can’t keep up with daily water change. They eventually got sick with bloat or hole in the head disease.


 And how long have you kept discus? How long have you kept soft water cichlids: ram cichlids, biotodoma cupidos and wavarini, geophagus, Bolivian Rams, apistogramma and altum angels? 

How long have you had these fish in your aquarium using a canister filter? What proof do you have that the use of canister filters causes hole in the head disease in cichlids? This is one area I have studied quite extensively and I can tell you with high confidence that this claim is untrue. The causes of Hole in the head are still under study, unless there has been a finding in the last 6 months that I haven't read; which, in that case, I would love a link to that study/studies. 



What proof do you have that sponge filters are better to the health of discus than canister filters? Just because they are used in big breeding establishments doesn't mean they are the only option for discus- they are, indeed, the most economical option for breeding. An economic option doesn't make an option a " better health option". Again, lets see the evidence here tht sponge filters are better for the health of softwater fish than canister filters.


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## Ben3721 (Jan 20, 2018)

People have the right to post their opinions even if it's wrong or right. Arguing over it is a waste of time since it's just the internet, it's the OP's job to glance over the posts to decide what they want to take away from it. I hate seeing the ego battles on forums, it's a waste of time. Asking for proof on the internet just makes a mess of a thread. Just let people make their statement, then make your own with your own logic to back it up, and leave it to the OP to decide what to believe, rather than have to read through a derailment. At least that makes sense to me. Something about arguing with strangers seems pointless to me. Just saying.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Ben3721 said:


> People have the right to post their opinions even if it's wrong or right. Arguing over it is a waste of time since it's just the internet, it's the OP's job to glance over the posts to decide what they want to take away from it. I hate seeing the ego battles on forums, it's a waste of time. Asking for proof on the internet just makes a mess of a thread. Just let people make their statement, then make your own with your own logic to back it up, and leave it to the OP to decide what to believe, rather than have to read through a derailment. At least that makes sense to me. Something about arguing with strangers seems pointless to me. Just saying.


Yep, your right. The internet/forums are a wild west show where people shoot it out over their opinions, supposed facts, etc. In the end the OP has to do his/her own due diligence to decide what makes sense for their situation. Forget asking for case studies, peer reviewed articles and/or irrelevent papers from the great outdoors. The best way to know if advise is sound is for the person giving the advise to back it up with his/her own experience and tanks. This anecdotal evidence will always carry the most weight for me anyway.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> And how long have you kept discus? How long have you kept soft water cichlids: ram cichlids, biotodoma cupidos and wavarini, geophagus, Bolivian Rams, apistogramma and altum angels?
> 
> 
> How long have you had these fish in your aquarium using a canister filter? What proof do you have that the use of canister filters causes hole in the head disease in cichlids? This is one area I have studied quite extensively and I can tell you with high confidence that this claim is untrue. The causes of Hole in the head are still under study, unless there has been a finding in the last 6 months that I haven't read; which, in that case, I would love a link to that study/studies.
> ...


It's well documented in many fish profiles that black water fish are susceptible to HITH, and I have personal experience to witness it. I have kept cichlid for decades, mostly hard water species from Africa and CA. I have kept discus and black water Geophagus for a few years and failed. They would grow to adulthood, only to suffer from disfiguring HITH My hard water cichlid never suffered from HITH living in the same tank environment. My hobby approach is that, since there are thousands of fish species in the world to choose from, I much prefer to keep fish that like my water chemistry than to adjust my water to fit the fish. So I gave up keeping black water fish for years. 

As to what caused HITH, there are as many theories as to what caused algae. No one knows for sure. But clean water helps to avoid HITH, and this is why serious discus keepers do WC daily and keep the simplest filters they can service easily. Canisters do not cause HITH if you can upkeep of cleaning the media weekly. But it's PIA to clean a canister so many people procrastinate cleaning and let the media to gunk up. Discus and black water Geos came from black water that is nearly sterile, and do not like high bacterial count associated with dirty filter. There may also be some other stuff in tannin rich black water that have antiseptic effect on micros. I can witness that too as I've been to Peruvian Amazon and swam in the black water. I was told that black water is clean and safe to swim in, as even mosquito larvae do not thrive in 4.5-5 pH water. 

The only time I was able to keep healthy Rams was in my childhood living in warm climate with soft tap water when I knew the least about fish keeping. 

What I really want to know is whether keeping plants with discus will keep them healthier, as there may be something plants can offer in common with tannin.


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## Leeatl (Aug 8, 2015)

I run a pre-filter sponge on my canister and it keeps a great deal of larger particulates out of the inside media thus I clean the pre's weekly and the canister about every 3-4 months . Nitrates never go above 20 ppm . I use the pre-filters on all my HOB's too .I am a firm believer in them and they save a ton of $ on media .


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Ben3721 said:


> People have the right to post their opinions even if it's wrong or right. Arguing over it is a waste of time since it's just the internet, it's the OP's job to glance over the posts to decide what they want to take away from it. I hate seeing the ego battles on forums, it's a waste of time. Asking for proof on the internet just makes a mess of a thread. Just let people make their statement, then make your own with your own logic to back it up, and leave it to the OP to decide what to believe, rather than have to read through a derailment. At least that makes sense to me. Something about arguing with strangers seems pointless to me. Just saying.


 Thanks for your input, but I disagree. If you are leading an OP down the wrong path you are leading many down the wrong path that come after and read them. Because many do-years later.
Demanding proof for Incorrect information is not an ego battle ( despite your assessment) because the 2 detractors ( self professed "myth-busters") here have not provided anything beyond opinions and are insisting that their opinions have more credence than our own our own because they are based on scientific evidence. A provable claim that is based on data that has been replicated many times in controlled environments. 

The OP that dropped this thread and ran did it for the controversy-- you might reread it. It was a bomb that was dropped to invite such a conversation. If these types of "derailments" are disturbing to you you can always back out and move on. You have a choice to keep reading you know.

Bump:


Tiger15 said:


> It's well documented in many fish profiles that black water fish are susceptible to HITH, and I have personal experience to witness it. I have kept cichlid for decades, mostly hard water species from Africa and CA. I have kept discus and black water Geophagus for a few years and failed. They would grow to adulthood, only to suffer from disfiguring HITH My hard water cichlid never suffered from HITH living in the same tank environment. My hobby approach is that, since there are thousands of fish species in the world to choose from, I much prefer to keep fish that like my water chemistry than to adjust my water to fit the fish. So I gave up keeping black water fish for years.
> 
> As to what caused HITH, there are as many theories as to what caused algae. No one knows for sure. But clean water helps to avoid HITH, and this is why serious discus keepers do WC daily and keep the simplest filters they can service easily. Canisters do not cause HITH if you can upkeep of cleaning the media weekly. But it's PIA to clean a canister so many people procrastinate cleaning and let the media to gunk up. Discus and black water Geos came from black water that is nearly sterile, and do not like high bacterial count associated with dirty filter. There may also be some other stuff in tannin rich black water that have antiseptic effect on micros. I can witness that too as I've been to Peruvian Amazon and swam in the black water. I was told that black water is clean and safe to swim in, as even mosquito larvae do not thrive in 4.5-5 pH water.
> 
> ...


 Again, thanks for your opinion. 

This is a far cry from the last post that insisted that sponge filters were necessary and healthier for soft -water species than canister filters. And, most importantly, that their was scientific evidence that that backed up your claims. 

Funny, I have all those soft-water species listed in last post to you with canister filtration and I do not have issues with Hole in the head. The wild geophagus, biotodomas, and my discus are between 4-5 years old. Beautiful fish as well, not just surviving- but top-specimens.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Leeatl said:


> I run a pre-filter sponge on my canister and it keeps a great deal of larger particulates out of the inside media thus I clean the pre's weekly and the canister about every 3-4 months . Nitrates never go above 20 ppm . I use the pre-filters on all my HOB's too .I am a firm believer in them and they save a ton of $ on media .


I do something similarly; I use a stainless steel strainer that captures all visible debris as a pre-filter. I use two, so that I can swap them to clean them off. In this way, I stay true to my intention to minimize the development of BB in the filtration system (sponges will fill with BB). Nothing in my canister other than further mechanical filtration ...with one exception: I'm currently experimenting with a de-nitrifier in half of the canister (it has two columns to it).



Desert Pupfish said:


> But if a fish dies while you're away, for example, and causes an ammonia spike--some redundancy can save the day.


True. Now, let me add another scenario that supports redundancy of a non-biomedia (in the filter) approach. A power outage, where the filter is the primary bio-filter, results in a rapid build-up of nasties in the tank that can damage gills or kill in a few hours with the right bio-load. I've had power losses that can last until I get home at the end of the day. Reasonably priced UPS' only last about 30 minutes. In this case, better to have maximum BB in the tank. Of course, in either case, if pH is below 7.0-7.5, we're probably both going to be ok.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Deanna said:


> True. Now, let me add another scenario that supports redundancy of a non-biomedia (in the filter) approach. A power outage, where the filter is the primary bio-filter, results in a rapid build-up of nasties in the tank that can damage gills or kill in a few hours with the right bio-load. I've had power losses that can last until I get home at the end of the day. Reasonably priced UPS' only last about 30 minutes. In this case, better to have maximum BB in the tank. Of course, in either case, if pH is below 7.0-7.5, we're probably both going to be ok.





Sounds awful-- but, not something that has ever happened to me in 30 years of fish-keeping. And, of course, I have dealt with some power outages in those years. Not saying it cant happen, but not something that has happened to me.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Ben3721 said:


> This information and opinions are merely based on observations, personal experiences and might not match your own.


I love this!

We should all have disclaimers in our signature. 

Mine would include "your mileage may vary" and "Whatever I said I believed to be true at the time!". :grin2:


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Discusluv said:


> Sounds awful-- but, not something that has ever happened to me in 30 years of fish-keeping. And, of course, I have dealt with some power outages in those years. Not saying it cant happen, but not something that has happened to me.


I can recall two times that this happened, but it was over twenty years ago when I had low tech setups and - as always - way too many fish for my sized tanks. I came home to may struggling fish, most of wish ultimately died from the gill burn. Recent power outages have caused no issues, which I assign to the BB in the tank ...and acidic conditions caused by CO2.



Greggz said:


> I love this!
> 
> We should all have disclaimers in our signature.
> 
> Mine would include "your mileage may vary" and "Whatever I said I believed to be true at the time!". :grin2:


Better: we should always just assume such things when we read them. Credulity is an Internet-wide problem.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Discusluv said:


> Sounds awful-- but, not something that has ever happened to me in 30 years of fish-keeping. And, of course, I have dealt with some power outages in those years. Not saying it cant happen, but not something that has happened to me.


Actually, it happened more often than you are aware of, more with cichlid keepers than low stocking aquascapers, and more with newbees than seasoned fish keepers.

Unlike HOBs and sump systems that are open to the atmostphere, canister is a closed system. If the media is gunk up, it can go anaerobic quickly in a power outage and when the power is restored, it can flush out toxic gases. I have witnessed a fish friend who had a total wipe out of his African cichlid tank in a power surge. When he returned home from work, he was shocked to find out all fish dead despite the canister and every equipment running fine. Apparently, a couple hour outage was enough to turn anaerobic in a gunk up filter he had not cleaned for months. If he kept up with cleaning, that shouldn't happen. 

I stay out of canister because of the anaerobic vulnerability and the PIA to clean a canister which I cannot avoid to do often with messy cichlid. Unfortunately, most first time canister users don't know and procrastinate cleaning due to out of sight, out of mind. So the myth that more bio media is necessarily better is not true if one fails to maintain it. 

Yet I notice that canister is the most popular filters for aquascapers and I know the reasons why. First, appearance is important to aquascapers. They want the dissapearance of all ugly equipment by hiding the canister in the cabinet, hiding the intake behind plants, and even making the return pipe dissapear with transparent glass lily pipe. Second, canister can easily be hooked up to reactor to direct flow and CO2 to plants.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Tiger15 said:


> Actually, it happened more often than you are aware of, more with cichlid keepers than low stocking aquascapers, and more with newbees than seasoned fish keepers.
> 
> Unlike HOBs and sump systems that are open to the atmostphere, canister is a closed system. If the media is gunk up, it can go anaerobic quickly in a power outage and when the power is restored, it can flush out toxic gases. I have witnessed a fish friend who had a total wipe out of his African cichlid tank in a power surge. When he returned home from work, he was shocked to find out all fish dead despite the canister and every equipment running fine. Apparently, a couple hour outage was enough to turn anaerobic in a gunk up filter he had not cleaned for months. If he kept up with cleaning, that shouldn't happen.
> 
> ...


 Um, okay, what would you like me to say? 

Thats nice.


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## Desert Pupfish (May 6, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Um, okay, what would you like me to say?
> 
> Thats nice.


Sometimes the best response is no response....


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Desert Pupfish said:


> Sometimes the best response is no response....


Sometimes


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Ben3721 said:


> People have the right to post their opinions even if it's wrong or right. Arguing over it is a waste of time since it's just the internet, it's the OP's job to glance over the posts to decide what they want to take away from it. I hate seeing the ego battles on forums, it's a waste of time. Asking for proof on the internet just makes a mess of a thread. Just let people make their statement, then make your own with your own logic to back it up, and leave it to the OP to decide what to believe, rather than have to read through a derailment. At least that makes sense to me. Something about arguing with strangers seems pointless to me. Just saying.


That is literally what an argument is: two people with differing beliefs or views giving evidence and logical support for them. As for it being pointless on the internet, why would the place of the argument matter? Arguments are about our minds, not our bodies, so why would it be better in person? In fact, I prefer to argue online because I can link to sources, I don't have to deal with people interrupting me, I have time to digest the other person's argument and formulate a good response, I have time to reread what I've written to see if it all makes sense, and I can reread what the other person has written to make sure I understood their point (I still occasionally overlook a word or phrase that completely changes how I interpret their message). Outside of a college class or debate club, I can't think of a _better _place to have an argument than the internet (assuming there are mods around to keep things from getting too heated).


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## TMarquis (Mar 6, 2012)

*No filtration*

I have had great success over the years with no filtration. Fish are healthy and plants grow. Most fish that I keep. except African cichlids, thrive in neutral to slightly acid pH and very soft water. I do a 50% water change with RO water each week. Fish love it and breed well, especially discus. However, my discus did best on 50% daily changes. No more expensive filtration systems with this method. I also plant my plants in a rich soil. Madagascar and cryptocoryne plants don't go into recession. Try it!


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

TMarquis said:


> I have had great success over the years with no filtration. Fish are healthy and plants grow. Most fish that I keep. except African cichlids, thrive in neutral to slightly acid pH and very soft water. I do a 50% water change with RO water each week. Fish love it and breed well, especially discus. However, my discus did best on 50% daily changes. No more expensive filtration systems with this method. I also plant my plants in a rich soil. Madagascar and cryptocoryne plants don't go into recession. Try it!


In SE Asia discus hatcheries, they keep discus in vaults with no filtration, simply do 50% water change daily. In Florida fish farms, they raise fish in concrete coffin caskets with continuous water change by feeding well water in one end, and over flowing in the other end. If you can keep up with WC, you don’t need filtration of any sort. That said, whether you consciously provide it or not, biological filtration is always there in a cycled system with ample supply of oxygen and biofilmed surfaces.


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