# Help!!!! Star Grass (Heteranthera Zosterifolia ) &amp; Vallisneria Spiralis Dying!!!



## [email protected]

Please help??? See pictures can you see the dots appearing on the star grass and the spirals look dead































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## longgonedaddy

Well, it's certainly not a nitrogen deficiency :surprise:

What's your fert schedule/dosing?


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Well, it's certainly not a nitrogen deficiency :surprise:
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> What's your fert schedule/dosing?




Hello, well I just received some Potasium so dosed that 10ml per 100l and it's a 240 tank. 

- easyCarbo 10ml daily (thinking maybe it's this) 
-profito plant ferts. 25ml weekly which seems to have brought the Christmas moss back to life. Did a direct dose I.e syringe in water. 
- fluval Cycle biological enhancer to cycle the tank. 

That's it. 

Any ideas? What about the hydrogen Peroxide think it's 12% I sprayed that in the water to kill some algae. 

Thanks in advance. Ben 


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Well, it's certainly not a nitrogen deficiency :surprise:
> 
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> What's your fert schedule/dosing?




Also some additional pictures of the Christmas moss recovering and the close ups of the star grass to help your diagnosis? Thanks.































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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Also some additional pictures of the Christmas moss recovering and the close ups of the star grass to help your diagnosis? Thanks.
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Could it be the light? I have the lights on from 1pm until 11pm = 10 hours. 

I have the original 2x T8 that came with the fluval Roma 240 and the additional 2x T5 that I put on as I wanted to upgrade the lights. 

Any thoughts welcome? 

Many thanks. 
Ben 


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## Maryland Guppy

[email protected] said:


> Ada substrate,


Are daily water changes of 50% recommended with new substrate?
Ammonia burn is a great possibility.


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## ben35[email protected]

Maryland Guppy said:


> Are daily water changes of 50% recommended with new substrate?
> Ammonia burn is a great possibility.




Not daily. By daily I think I have done 6 90% water changes since setting up the new tank. In 3 weeks but then I read that when cycling a tank not to do any water changes? I thought ammonia is good for plants? However I am a complete newbie so could be way off. 

Should I do a water change? I thought the idea was to wait until the Nitrate levels rise then do one? They have just started to rise as of yesterday. See pic. 











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## Maryland Guppy

Have read somewhere on this forum that 1st week or so recommended daily WC's with new ADA substrate.
Diana had a planted tank cycling process that recommended 2ppm when stocked with plants.

I will see if I can find the post.


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## [email protected]

Maryland Guppy said:


> Have read somewhere on this forum that 1st week or so recommended daily WC's with new ADA substrate.
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> Diana had a planted tank cycling process that recommended 2ppm when stocked with plants.
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Thanks really appreciate it. 


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Thanks really appreciate it.
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I did start the dry start method for 1 month prior to filling if that helps. Wasn't long enough but had to do something to save the Christmas Moss and baby tears (Cuba) which are now recovering.

















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## Maryland Guppy

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/5480042-post8.html

Here is the link to Diana's post, displayed many times.

Search for starting up ADA soils too.


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## [email protected]

Maryland Guppy said:


> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/5480042-post8.html
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> Here is the link to Diana's post, displayed many times.
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Link doesn't seem to work? 


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## Maryland Guppy

I just tried from computer and okay.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9797794-post2.html
Here is another thread from just now that has the other nano tank link I recommend reading.


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## [email protected]

Maryland Guppy said:


> I just tried from computer and okay.
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> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9797794-post2.html
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> Here is another thread from just now that has the other nano tank link I recommend reading.




Many thanks. I will take a look on the laptop. I think you could be right it maybe what's causing it. 


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Many thanks. I will take a look on the laptop. I think you could be right it maybe what's causing it.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Great read. Could be right I think apparently if you pump co2 ammonia turn into ammonium which plants use as food. 

I just done another reading and check my stats between yesterday post above and today.










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## longgonedaddy

That liquid carbon might be the issue with the vals and moss, but not the star grass. Why are you dosing that, if you're already blasting away with CO2? 

Maryland Guppy might be right on with the ammonia burn, do some water changes. that huge amount of ammonia in the water can't be good for anything. 

Keep doing regular water changes until the ammonia is under control, so it's not burning the plants. The high ammonia levels might also be slowing the bacteria cycle, too.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> That liquid carbon might be the issue with the vals and moss, but not the star grass. Why are you dosing that, if you're already blasting away with CO2?
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> Maryland Guppy might be right on with the ammonia burn, do some water changes. that huge amount of ammonia in the water can't be good for anything.
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Long one. Many thanks for input. 

I agree I did the same and questioned myself today. Why am I dosing that... I think it was because of the transition from dry start to flooded tank. Anyway no longer dosing that now and co2 has been reduced as its expensive and prob wasn't all being used by the plants however still keeping the drop checker yellow and not letting it go green. 

I will do a 80% water change tonight and post new readings. Was also going to use Prime as it arrived in the post today. 

Will this not upset me cycling the tank though? As I need ammonia to be high to produce nitrates? However I do think it does need at least one water change. Thanks everyone. 

Mrs won't be pleased me doing this at new year. Haha. 


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## longgonedaddy

My thought on cycling is that you are right now killing your plants with the excess ammonia. The bacteria will grow sooner or later. Killing your plants isn't going to help anything. 

Do a big water change today, and smaller ones, like 20 25 percent, or whatever the linked threads say about ADA. I never used it, so I don't know for sure. 

And don't worry about the water changes affecting the cycle. The overwhelming majority of the bacteria is on surfaces, whether it's substrate, glass, plants, or your filter media. There is not much in water, so you're not going to be removing much.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> My thought on cycling is that you are right now killing your plants with the excess ammonia. The bacteria will grow sooner or later. Killing your plants isn't going to help anything.
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> Do a big water change today, and smaller ones, like 20 25 percent, or whatever the linked threads say about ADA. I never used it, so I don't know for sure.
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> And don't worry about the water changes affecting the cycle. The overwhelming majority of the bacteria is on surfaces, whether it's substrate, glass, plants, or your filter media. There is not much in water, so you're not going to be removing much.




Ok so done a huge water change. Biggest yet. See pics. Also new readings below with Prime added big difference below compared to previous readings in the post. Need to add fish soon once plants get up and running

















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## Maryland Guppy

1-2ppm of ammonia will still cycle your tank.
When ready for fish just don't introduce them all at once.
Every week or couple of weeks add more.

BB are not just floating around in your water they are attached to something.
Hopefully all in your filter media, but still on everything else.


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## [email protected]

Maryland Guppy said:


> 1-2ppm of ammonia will still cycle your tank.
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> Every week or couple of weeks add more.
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> BB are not just floating around in your water they are attached to something.
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> Hopefully all in your filter media, but still on everything else.




What's BB? Is that beneficial bacteria? Wasn't sure. Anyway thanks for all the input. 


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## Opare

Keep doing water changes, the Aquasoil will continually provide Ammonia for cycling, even with all the water changes. Don't worry about not letting it cycle by changing the water.
ADA has a guide how to use Aquasoil I think. I think they recommend a water change everyday for the first week, every 2nd day for the second week and so on till it is once a week.
Also be patient a lot of your plants are probably not looking great as they are in a new environment. Wait a while before you start worrying about their health.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> Keep doing water changes, the Aquasoil will continually provide Ammonia for cycling, even with all the water changes. Don't worry about not letting it cycle by changing the water.
> ADA has a guide how to use Aquasoil I think. I think they recommend a water change everyday for the first week, every 2nd day for the second week and so on till it is once a week.
> Also be patient a lot of your plants are probably not looking great as they are in a new environment. Wait a while before you start worrying about their health.
> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Ok all many thanks for your input so I did another water change 80% two days after my last and these were my readings before doing the water change.









As you can see looking like they are starting to improve if you compare it to the results before my last water change. 

See below: 










My only problem when doing a water change is all the bubbles? Does everyone get these just after doing a water change the tank fills up with lots of bubbles. Baby tears are almost lifting up out of the soil and I am having to replant... 


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## longgonedaddy

Looks like you're finally getting some nitrates---good! 

Those micro bubbles are caused by disssolved gasses in the water expanding as they are more or less unpressurized when coming out of the faucet. check out this thread. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...rk-eliminate-micro-bubbles-during-winter.html


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## Opare

[email protected] said:


> My only problem when doing a water change is all the bubbles? Does everyone get these just after doing a water change the tank fills up with lots of bubbles. Baby tears are almost lifting up out of the soil and I am having to replant...
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No I don't really get a lot of bubbles, a few, but not a lot. Nothing that causes any adverse effects anyway.
How do you refill the tank? Maybe do it in a more gentle way, or do it in a way which doesn't create so much surface agitation so the water isn't sloshing in dissolving gases into the water and making bubbles.




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## [email protected]

Thanks LongOne & Opare. Should I do another water change tomorrow then or wait the same I.e two days? 

I read that the bubbles can form more with new tanks. Problem is my pump then sucks them in and spits them around the tank. They disappear overnight but are putting stress on baby tears uprooting them... 

I refill using the python thing see pic







so no surface aggregation. 

Also my Christmas Moss has exploded and is really coming back to life... Not in the pic above as that's an old one but is now. 


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## Opare

Hmmm I'm surprised you are getting bubbles when you are filling like that.
I would just continue with every 2 days for this week, then move on to every 3 days next week.


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## [email protected]

All apart from the bubbles I can say that the star grass has started to recover after only four days of changing water. It must have been ammonia burn so thanks everyone as this was the first time that I had heard of this. Must be as I am cycling the tank. 

I have now got quite a lot of green algae so have turned my Doctor on again to get rid of this. It changes the molecular structure of the water and creates a steam effect all though I am certain this is oxygen. Not sure but hopefully this will get rid of the green algae. I was going to turn the UV filter on but didn't want to effect the cycling of the tank. 

I am thinking about adding some fish soon. 

Thanks everyone. 


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> All apart from the bubbles I can say that the star grass has started to recover after only four days of changing water. It must have been ammonia burn so thanks everyone as this was the first time that I had heard of this. Must be as I am cycling the tank.
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> I have now got quite a lot of green algae so have turned my Doctor on again to get rid of this. It changes the molecular structure of the water and creates a steam effect all though I am certain this is oxygen. Not sure but hopefully this will get rid of the green algae. I was going to turn the UV filter on but didn't want to effect the cycling of the tank.
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> I am thinking about adding some fish soon.
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> Thanks everyone.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Good to hear about the star grass recovering so quickly. 

What is this "doctor" you mention? 

Is it green water algae? Or surface algae? 

Don't add any fish until your nitrogen cycle is complete----no ammonia or nitrite detected. Also, if you're getting algae outbreaks, something isn't balanced, so adding fish will likely throw that balance off more.

What's your lighting setup and photoperiod?


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## Opare

longgonedaddy said:


> What is this "doctor" you mention?


Probably the Chihiros Dr., which is basically a Twinstar algae-buster knockoff.




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## [email protected]

Hi Longone yes as Opare said its the Chihiros Dr. I think this works by putting oxygen in the water. 

My setup is as follows: 
240 Litre Fluval Roma 
ADA substrate 
Injected CO2 
2x original T8 bulbs
2x T5 54W bulbs which I added to the fluval Roma 240 lid. 

The lights come on at 1pm and go off at 11pm. 

The tree Algae seems to be where there is more flow? Also this has only appeared last day or two since doing more water changes. 


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Hi Longone yes as Opare said its the Chihiros Dr. I think this works by putting oxygen in the water.
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> My setup is as follows:
> 240 Litre Fluval Roma
> ADA substrate
> Injected CO2
> 2x original T8 bulbs
> 2x T5 54W bulbs which I added to the fluval Roma 240 lid.
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> The lights come on at 1pm and go off at 11pm.
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> The tree Algae seems to be where there is more flow? Also this has only appeared last day or two since doing more water changes.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




*green Algae 


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## Opare

You don't need your lights on for so long, especially since the tank is new. I would only have them on for 5-6 hours. This is probably contributing to the algae growth. You can start to bump it up once the tank matures.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> You don't need your lights on for so long, especially since the tank is new. I would only have them on for 5-6 hours. This is probably contributing to the algae growth. You can start to bump it up once the tank matures.
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What about the plants don't they need the light on for longer? The Cuba (Baby Tears). I could turn the lights on at 3pm then off at 11. Then they are only on for 8 hours a day instead of 10 hours. 

Plants seem to be doing well now. This was the latest tests prior to water change









Tank is still being cycled and ammonia is coming down. 

Can I put any hardy fish in yet? Like algae eaters? 


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## Opare

[email protected] said:


> What about the plants don't they need the light on for longer? The Cuba (Baby Tears). I could turn the lights on at 3pm then off at 11. Then they are only on for 8 hours a day instead of 10 hours.
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The plants will be fine. Plants that need more light care more about intensity than length really, and 5-6 hours is plenty.
Nope no fish (or any livestock) until Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. If not your fish can get permanently damaged.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> The plants will be fine. Plants that need more light care more about intensity than length really, and 5-6 hours is plenty.
> Nope no fish (or any livestock) until Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. If not your fish can get permanently damaged.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Thanks Opare... Ok I'll reduce it down and do more water changes to get Nitrite and Amonia to 0ppm 


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## longgonedaddy

Opare said:


> The plants will be fine. Plants that need more light care more about intensity than length really, and 5-6 hours is plenty.
> Nope no fish (or any livestock) until Ammonia and Nitrite are 0. If not your fish can get permanently damaged.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agreed! 

And Ben, I read your other thread about changing media. Let's see what happens with the addition of purigen.


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## [email protected]

Ok so did a 80% water change yesterday and here are my results today.... I am going to do a 90% water change tonight and use some hydrogen peroxide 12% in a spray bottle to kill the green algae as also need to remove some dead plants.










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## [email protected]

Pictures of the green algae























Plants are doing well now. 



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## [email protected]

I took the leafy plant out as it ruined the scenery... Water change done










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## longgonedaddy

I actually like the look of that algae! But it's not my tank.


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> I took the leafy plant out as it ruined the scenery... Water change done
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Looks like its coming along Ben.

The goal is to gain stability of your tank and make small changes at a time to keep that stability so its better if I post here since its easier to have 1 thread that everyone can look at and give advice.

Definitely agree with the lighting. 6 hrs is plenty to start a new tank while going through the cycling process since algae blooms are almost always an issue during start up. 

Have you considered what you are going to stock your tank with? 

The reason I ask is because it may be a good idea to have a clean up crew such as otto's, shrimp, snails to help keep your plants and rocks glass etc. nice and clean on a regular basis and provide some breathing room with algae issues. If you are planning on doing so it may not be a bad thing to leave the algae on the rocks so that they have something to eat when introduced to the tank as otto's can be a pain to feed sometimes. If the algae is affecting the plants I would definitely treat the plants.

Just a thought and I'm curious to see what the others feel about leaving algae in the tank. 

Dan


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Opare... Ok I'll reduce it down and do more water changes to get Nitrite and Amonia to 0ppm
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Evening Dan,

I am going for a Iwagumi Scape so will be keeping small fish etc. I want my tree to look like this again









Then going for this type of look/feel 










So keeping small fish like tetra etc. 

However I will be keeping about 4 OTO for the algae. 

What's your thoughts on snails don't they eat the plants? I wanted to keep some shrimp too. 



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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Evening Dan,
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> I am going for a Iwagumi Scape so will be keeping small fish etc. I want my tree to look like this again
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> However I will be keeping about 4 OTO for the algae.
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> What's your thoughts on snails don't they eat the plants? I wanted to keep some shrimp too.
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



This is my first go at a serious planted tank too as I come from more of a fishkeeping/breeding background and going for a similar look. Also a tree with Dragon Wood and Christmas moss and an underwater waterfall. 

About the snails. Nerite snails are fantastic, they don't eat plants and they only breed in brackish water so you don't need to worry about a snail infestation. This is the only snail I would ever put in my tank again they are fantastic clearers. I had an issue with trumpet snails in the past and lets just say it was more than frustrating.

Otto's are great I would recommend 6+ as they do better in groups but others may have different experiences with them. 

Shrimp will depend on the fish you keep and I have never kept shrimp before so best to get advice from another on that.

Rummy nose tetra's are a good indicator fish. Their Bright red nose will fade when they show signs of stress so its a good warning sign that you need to look at you tank more closely. They school well and a school of 20+ look amazing.

I think those 3 are a good addition to any tank.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> This is my first go at a serious planted tank too as I come from more of a fishkeeping/breeding background and going for a similar look. Also a tree with Dragon Wood and Christmas moss and an underwater waterfall.
> 
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> Otto's are great I would recommend 6+ as they do better in groups but others may have different experiences with them.
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> Shrimp will depend on the fish you keep and I have never kept shrimp before so best to get advice from another on that.
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> Rummy nose tetra's are a good indicator fish. Their Bright red nose will fade when they show signs of stress so its a good warning sign that you need to look at you tank more closely. They school well and a school of 20+ look amazing.
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Hi Dan,

6 Otto wouldn't they run out of food very quickly? 

I will look into the snail. 

I like the rummy nose tetra I have seen some people have a few different species of Tetra together in tanks. 

Think the Rummy nose shoal the best and teach the others to do so. 

As the is a fish less tank that is being cycled I read somewhere I can add the fish all at once. Is this true? I was thinking of adding all 20 tetra at the same time. 



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## [email protected]

1 day after 99% water change and here are the new results










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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> 6 Otto wouldn't they run out of food very quickly?
> 
> I will look into the snail.
> 
> I like the rummy nose tetra I have seen some people have a few different species of Tetra together in tanks.
> 
> Think the Rummy nose shoal the best and teach the others to do so.
> 
> As the is a fish less tank that is being cycled I read somewhere I can add the fish all at once. Is this true? I was thinking of adding all 20 tetra at the same time.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Otto's can be supplemented food if needed but they can be picky eaters. Boiled veggies, algae wafers or even spirlina flakes.

If the fishless cycle is done with a high enough bioload then yes you should be able to add all the fish at once. However I prefer to add in small groups and check my water conditions for a week or so before adding more. Better safe than sorry and its much easier to make smaller changes and be able to adapt if there is a problem then to introduce a large amount and find out you have a problem and are stuck scrambling to save fish. Nerite snails are very hardy, the rummy nose are a little sensitive and otto's can be very sensitive to water conditions. Its risk vs. reward and with the time you have put into this aquarium I would say a little more time wouldn't hurt. That's just my opinion but I do believe looking at your readings and the amount of ammonia going in you could add them all at once but I will leave that decision up to you.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> Otto's can be supplemented food if needed but they can be picky eaters. Boiled veggies, algae wafers or even spirlina flakes.
> 
> If the fishless cycle is done with a high enough bioload then yes you should be able to add all the fish at once. However I prefer to add in small groups and check my water conditions for a week or so before adding more. Better safe than sorry and its much easier to make smaller changes and be able to adapt if there is a problem then to introduce a large amount and find out you have a problem and are stuck scrambling to save fish. Nerite snails are very hardy, the rummy nose are a little sensitive and otto's can be very sensitive to water conditions. Its risk vs. reward and with the time you have put into this aquarium I would say a little more time wouldn't hurt. That's just my opinion but I do believe looking at your readings and the amount of ammonia going in you could add them all at once but I will leave that decision up to you.
> 
> Dan




Thanks Dan. You will have to post some pics of your setup too. 

I think I will wait maybe another week or so I want to get the ammonia levels down to 0 so if I keep doing water changes this should happen. I can always aim to add the fish next weekend. Yeah all for getting the snails too. 




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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> 1 day after 99% water change and here are the new results
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Have you tested your tapwater?


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Have you tested your tapwater?




No what should I test for? I doubt there will be any chemicals in Scotland taps. What you think I will find? 


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## [email protected]

Ok so took Longone advice to test the tap water and these were the results. I'd expect PH to be high since no CO2 in tap water hence why it is lower in the tank. 









And with the high PH readings below: 











However anyone know why my tank is still high in ammonia etc. I am not doing another water change until Sunday that would be 3 days. Should I do 50% or more like 90%??? 


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Dan. You will have to post some pics of your setup too.
> 
> I think I will wait maybe another week or so I want to get the ammonia levels down to 0 so if I keep doing water changes this should happen. I can always aim to add the fish next weekend. Yeah all for getting the snails too.
> 
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yes you definitely want to wait until your ammonia and nitrites are 0 and get the nitrates under control before adding fish.

As for my tank its a 55 Gal and will be another month or bit longer before I flood it and there is not much to look at right now. I will be stocking Zebra otto's, Nerite snails, Celestial Pearl Danios (aka galaxy rasbora), possible some amano shrimp (not sure yet), and 20 or so rummy nose tetra's. Doing a DHG carpet DSM with Christmas moss on dragon wood for a tree and some AR mini on the waterfall. I have not decided what/if any other plants yet.

Its a kinda of mish mash of sorts but I will see how it turns out and can always move the fish out and re-scape if I don't like it.

Here is a link to my underwater waterfall build and test: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/1113690-underwater-waterfall-build-test.html

And a couple pics that show the scape and the DHG right after planting 5 days ago.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> Yes you definitely want to wait until your ammonia and nitrites are 0 and get the nitrates under control before adding fish.
> 
> 
> 
> As for my tank its a 55 Gal and will be another month or bit longer before I flood it and there is not much to look at right now. I will be stocking Zebra otto's, Nerite snails, Celestial Pearl Danios (aka galaxy rasbora), possible some amano shrimp (not sure yet), and 20 or so rummy nose tetra's. Doing a DHG carpet DSM with Christmas moss on dragon wood for a tree and some AR mini on the waterfall. I have not decided what/if any other plants yet.
> 
> 
> 
> Its a kinda of mish mash of sorts but I will see how it turns out and can always move the fish out and re-scape if I don't like it.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a link to my underwater waterfall build and test: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/20-diy/1113690-underwater-waterfall-build-test.html
> 
> 
> 
> And a couple pics that show the scape and the DHG right after planting 5 days ago.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




Looking fantastic that tank Dan... I tried the dry start couldn't wait though and flooded but only because my Christmas Moss got burnt with the light. Hence why it's brown. Lol. 

Yeah I think I will wait. Maybe the purigen will help when it arrives. It's taking ages for levels to drop though. Everyone keeps asking me why I haven't added any fish yet. I try to explain but they don't understand. 

I will do some googling on your fish. I like the Zebra OTTO and the rummy nose tetra do you buy your fish online or at the local store? Would you consider having multiple species of Tetra? 

Your Bonsai tree was like mines I added sponge to give volume see below:
















Also some pictures of my dry start method before I decided to flood the tank because of the light burning the Christmas moss. 














































I would say almost 40% of my baby tears died because not enough to CO2 at the start however I only did the DSM for 2 weeks if I had waited longer maybe it would of been better. But I wish I would of waited to add the Christmas moss until I was ready to flood. This would of saved me a lot of headaches. 



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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Looking fantastic that tank Dan... I tried the dry start couldn't wait though and flooded but only because my Christmas Moss got burnt with the light. Hence why it's brown. Lol.
> 
> Yeah I think I will wait. Maybe the purigen will help when it arrives. It's taking ages for levels to drop though. Everyone keeps asking me why I haven't added any fish yet. I try to explain but they don't understand.
> 
> I will do some googling on your fish. I like the Zebra OTTO and the rummy nose tetra do you buy your fish online or at the local store? Would you consider having multiple species of Tetra?
> 
> Your Bonsai tree was like mines I added sponge to give volume see below:
> 
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> I would say almost 40% of my baby tears died because not enough to CO2 at the start however I only did the DSM for 2 weeks if I had waited longer maybe it would of been better. But I wish I would of waited to add the Christmas moss until I was ready to flood. This would of saved me a lot of headaches.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I get my fish locally from a few different places not sure I can mention them if they are not forum sponsers.

I am waiting to get my Christmas moss for the same reason and yes I will be using sponges under for volume. Did you see the video from Dennis Wong on youtube too? that's where I seen that idea but not sure if it originated there or elsewhere. 

From what I read on Aquasoil which I am using as well it can take 1-2 months for the ammonia to come down.

For the most part mixing tetra's is no problem but you want to keep a good number of each species.

Going to run my tank 6 hrs to start in the morning with Finnex ray2 and original tank light until I get the new planted 24/7 SE which I will order next week if there are any left and will hopefully come before I flood the tank. Then I will run the ray2 and Planted for the 6 hrs 10am-4pm and the original aquarium light (very very low light) from 4-8 for viewing purposes. The waterfall may run 24/7 but I have to see if the air stone used to run the waterfall will off gas to much Co2. If it does I will run the waterfall from 4pm-10am while the main lighting is out.

Dan


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## longgonedaddy

Ben, with your elevated levels, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't the tap water complicating things.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Ben, with your elevated levels, I just wanted to make sure it wasn't the tap water complicating things.




Thanks Longone. Do you think it's the ADA soil, I have the following substrate in the tank: 











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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Longone. Do you think it's the ADA soil, I have the following substrate in the tank:
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Ben it is most definitely 100% the aquasoil, I know this is an external link but it is good info that should be read before using ADA aquasoil. I found it a good read.

http://www.aquariumlife.com.au/showthread.php/26703-Using-aqua-soils-the-right-way!

Dan


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## longgonedaddy

Dman911 said:


> Ben it is most definitely 100% the aquasoil, I know this is an external link but it is good info that should be read before using ADA aquasoil. I found it a good read.
> 
> Using aqua soils the right way!!
> 
> Dan


Yep, absolutely the ADA. Keep doing what all the guidelines say about water changes. I've never used it myself, but it's well documented about the ammonia release. Your cycle will eventually come around, and you'll see the ammonia and nitrite drop to zero. 

I trust you've reduced the light to fight the algae. Although, I like the look of it( sorry, shameless opinion there) when things are more stable, you should see less of it. 
I'll defer to the plant experts for your fert dosing, but I'm looking forward to when you start seriously planning for fish. :wink2:


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## Dman911

I'm going to guess 6-8 weeks from start up before ready for fish. This is just based on research I have done and personal experience cycling tanks without Aquasoil but its recommended 2 inches of Aquasoil and most accounts I have read were using a seeded filter (cycled) are about 4-5 weeks before ready for fish. It looks like Ben has about 3-3.5 inches of Aquasoil in his tank and is not using a seeded filter to get a head start on the nitrifying bacteria which would put him a couple weeks back if I had to guess. 

Just a guess but I'm pretty confident in it and I'm looking forward to seeing this tank all fill in and stocked, its going to be beautiful. Makes me a lil jealous lol.

Just to add: I read somewhere that increased water changes will help reduce the overall time it takes for the Aquasoil to exhaust itself of ammonia but I cannot remember where.

Also read that the first 2 days should be 80-90% water changes and then 50% a day for the duration of week 1. Week 2 is 50% every other day and week 3 on is 50% a week. But at this point I would just go by your water parameters.

Dan


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## longgonedaddy

Dman911 said:


> I'm going to guess 6-8 weeks from start up before ready for fish. This is just based on research I have done and personal experience cycling tanks without Aquasoil but its recommended 2 inches of Aquasoil and most accounts I have read were using a seeded filter (cycled) are about 4-5 weeks before ready for fish. It looks like Ben has about 3-3.5 inches of Aquasoil in his tank and is not using a seeded filter to get a head start on the nitrifying bacteria which would put him a couple weeks back if I had to guess.
> 
> Just a guess but I'm pretty confident in it and I'm looking forward to seeing this tank all fill in and stocked, its going to be beautiful. Makes me a lil jealous lol.
> 
> Just to add: I read somewhere that increased water changes will help reduce the overall time it takes for the Aquasoil to exhaust itself of ammonia but I cannot remember where.
> 
> Also read that the first 2 days should be 80-90% water changes and then 50% a day for the duration of week 1. Week 2 is 50% every other day and week 3 on is 50% a week. But at this point I would just go by your water parameters.
> 
> Dan


Yes, it isn't going to be a spectacular setup, isn't it? :bounce:

The increased water changes speeding up the ammonia exhaustion make some sense, I guess. No hard science of course, just my reckoning, but water can only hold so much in solution before it precipitates out solids. So, "empty" water should pull out more from the AS. Diffusion, right? Or something. It's been a long day and I've had a few adult beverages. :grin2:


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## Dman911

longgonedaddy said:


> Yes, it isn't going to be a spectacular setup, isn't it? :bounce:
> 
> The increased water changes speeding up the ammonia exhaustion make some sense, I guess. No hard science of course, just my reckoning, but water can only hold so much in solution before it precipitates out solids. So, "empty" water should pull out more from the AS. Diffusion, right? Or something. It's been a long day and I've had a few adult beverages. :grin2:


Yes that's the same principle I see there at play. On a Friday night beverages make the rest of the week easier to swallow lol.

Dan


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## LiQuiD SmoKe

[email protected] said:


> I will add some more on as close ups.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





Love the rocks! Where did you pick them up?


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## [email protected]

LiQuiD SmoKe said:


> Love the rocks! Where did you pick them up?




I have loads left it was actually someone on eBay who sent them over. 


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## LiQuiD SmoKe

[email protected] said:


> I have loads left it was actually someone on eBay who sent them over.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Cool! Have a link of the seller? Would love to get some. Would be nice if you were in S. California, or I would buy some from ya!


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## [email protected]

LiQuiD SmoKe said:


> Cool! Have a link of the seller? Would love to get some. Would be nice if you were in S. California, or I would buy some from ya!




Sure, not sure if they Ship overseas this was my lot o purchased for £70 which I thought was very good. Each tile behind was 10cm... 










They have others too if you google TM Aquatix and look for the eBay shop. 

However they also offer bulk discount so I purchased mine from them outside eBay and contacted them via email. 

Hope this helps. 




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## [email protected]

So here are my results after day two. I have just done another 90% water change, trimmed the plants. Added Purigen and new Bio Media to existing. Let's see if this brings the levels down will do a test tomorrow










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## longgonedaddy

Why are you trimming plants? I would think during this time, you'd want them to grow.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Why are you trimming plants? I would think during this time, you'd want them to grow.




Just the star grass they have grown 2 inch in 2 weeks. They recovered and grew like crazy. 


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> Just the star grass they have grown 2 inch in 2 weeks. They recovered and grew like crazy.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ah, ok


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## [email protected]

I will post readings later today. Is it better to do this before or after lights come on? 


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## Maryland Guppy

[email protected] said:


> Added Purigen and new Bio Media to existing. Let's see if this brings the levels down will do a test tomorrow


Some Purigen info:
It is not a chemical, it is a resin. An organic scavenging resin.
It will not directly reduce NH3 or NO2 or NO3 already in your water.
It will absorb dissolved organics before they turn into ammonia.
Seachem states minimal impact on trace elements.
I have never seen an impact on trace elements which is good.
Great water clarity from this product too!


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## [email protected]

Thanks Maryland... 

So here are the results my ammonia levels seem to be dropping at 0.25ppm. Nitrite taking a little longer though. I think this is about 2.0ppm.










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## longgonedaddy

Looking good, finally coming down. NO2 should start soon, and soon you'll see 0 for NH3/4 and NO2, and NO3 rising.


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## ryry2012

LiQuiD SmoKe said:


> Cool! Have a link of the seller? Would love to get some. Would be nice if you were in S. California, or I would buy some from ya!


Nature Aquarium in Santa Monica sells stones. I went there two days ago. Ohko was $4/lb. They also sell cool driftwood. You gotta check it out.


Ben,
Cycling is being difficult for me too. Good luck for you (& me)!!


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## [email protected]

Ok so two days later and levels are still the same 









so looks like tank is becoming more stable. Just done another 90% water change 










will upload new results after a day or two it will be interesting to see if the Nitrite levels come down. 


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## longgonedaddy

More good results! Ammonia continues to drop, nitrites next.


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## [email protected]

Ok Longgone ammonia at 0.25ppm so dropping still. Nitrite still high though. Should I dose more Prime? Or keep sticking to water changes? When should I do next water change? Also plants looking much better.










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## [email protected]

Compare this to what it was 12 days ago










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## longgonedaddy

Looks good. For water changes, do whatever the those links suggest for aquasoil.


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## Opare

Just let the cycle take its time, I wouldn't dose Prime to detoxify the ammonia and nitrite. Just wait a bit longer and all should be 0 soon.


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## [email protected]

All ok Ammonia is now at 0ppm. Nitrate is increasing which is good and I think Nitrite is starting to come down too. Happy days can't wait to put fish in.









Also pics of evening tank. Needs a bigger led light though










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## longgonedaddy

Nice! I'm not sure if it's the pic, but is the pH 6.0? Just curious.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Nice! I'm not sure if it's the pic, but is the pH 6.0? Just curious.




Yeah well maybe 6.2 it's always been like this. However been dosing shed loads of CO2 and I think this drops PH levels when you do this... 


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> Yeah well maybe 6.2 it's always been like this. However been dosing shed loads of CO2 and I think this drops PH levels when you do this...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, ok. I haven't been paying much attention to it in your other pics, focusing on the nitrogen values. 

And yes, CO2 will drop pH


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Oh, ok. I haven't been paying much attention to it in your other pics, focusing on the nitrogen values.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, CO2 will drop pH




I am doing another 90% water change today. May as well do the 90% while not having fish in. 


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## [email protected]

Ok so here are the next set of results









Nitrite still not dropping...


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## farrenator

Patience. Let the cycle do its thing - are you aware of what the cycle entails? You need the right bacteria/critters to take hold - which takes time. Ammonia --> Nitrite ---> Nitrate. One bacteria converts Ammonia to Nitrite. Then a different bacteria converts Nitrite to Nitrate. When the cycle is done you should have zero ammonia, zero nitrite and a reading for nitrate. How long does that substrate release ammonia for? As long as it continues to leach ammonia you will have bacteria that convert it to nitrite, and then another from nitrite to nitrate. Maybe back off the massive water changes since ammonia seems stable, and let the bacteria population grow and do its thing.

On some brand new tanks without seeded filter media the entire cycle can take up to 30 days...............


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## [email protected]

farrenator said:


> Patience. Let the cycle do its thing - are you aware of what the cycle entails? You need the right bacteria/critters to take hold - which takes time. Ammonia --> Nitrite ---> Nitrate. One bacteria converts Ammonia to Nitrite. Then a different bacteria converts Nitrite to Nitrate. When the cycle is done you should have zero ammonia, zero nitrite and a reading for nitrate. How long does that substrate release ammonia for? As long as it continues to leach ammonia you will have bacteria that convert it to nitrite, and then another from nitrite to nitrate. Maybe back off the massive water changes since ammonia seems stable, and let the bacteria population grow and do its thing.
> 
> 
> 
> On some brand new tanks without seeded filter media the entire cycle can take up to 30 days...............




Many thanks just done another water change. Albeit before I read your post. I will leave it now for about a week to see what happens. These were my results before the water change... I also cleaned the filter because it's been running about 8 weeks now. It's Ada sand and Ada soil it can take up to 3 months to cycle a big tank I read online.










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## farrenator

You have a good head start. Let the nitrite converting bacteria population grow and keep monitoring your ammonia levels. Once ammonia and nitrite read zero your tank is cycled and you can add fish. My bet is that will happen pretty quickly if you leave it alone.

As for the filter - I don't know what you have in there but keep in mind, a lot of the bacteria I mentioned grows/lives on the filter media. Keep your filters clean but use discretion. Also, when you clean the filter media use tank water or water that has had the chlorine/chloramines removed as they are toxic to this bacteria. FYI, I have a canister filter with different porosity foam pads. I squeeze those out about 3x per year when they get clogged. I could probably do it more often but I don't see the need. Plants and regular water changes keep the tank water stable.


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## [email protected]

Thanks. I just took out the carbon and polishing pads. 
Ok so another test today... Going to leave tank for 1 week to see what happens. These are my results.










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## [email protected]

Are these readings good or bad? Should I put my carbon back in? I kept it in a bag overnights??? 


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## longgonedaddy

Don't worry about running carbon if you're going with a planted tank. It will pull out good things along with the bad. I would suggest using Seachem's Purigen or Renew products. They remove the bad stuff, but don't pull your ferts out of the water like carbon does. 

Tests look good. Like we've posted, the cycle can take a while, especially with all that ammonia that the ADA soil is pumping out. You need a lot of bacterial growth to counter it. 

Keep testing daily. Maybe now is the time to slow down on this WC's unless the numbers begin to rise, instead of fall.except of course for the nitrate. We're waiting for that to start rising, with 0 ammonia and nitrite. Then we know your cycle is complete.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Don't worry about running carbon if you're going with a planted tank. It will pull out good things along with the bad. I would suggest using Seachem's Purigen or Renew products. They remove the bad stuff, but don't pull your ferts out of the water like carbon does.
> 
> 
> 
> Tests look good. Like we've posted, the cycle can take a while, especially with all that ammonia that the ADA soil is pumping out. You need a lot of bacterial growth to counter it.
> 
> 
> 
> Keep testing daily. Maybe now is the time to slow down on this WC's unless the numbers begin to rise, instead of fall.except of course for the nitrate. We're waiting for that to start rising, with 0 ammonia and nitrite. Then we know your cycle is complete.




Thanks Longgone I am leaving it how it is now for a few days. I will take daily readings to see if the Nitrate starts to rise. I have also reduced the CO2 slightly to increase the PH. 

What a difference polishing pads make in a filter. I took mine out and water no where near as clear as before. 

Yeah I am using Purigen thanks to advice on this forum. 

All levels seem to have dropped let's see if Nitrate begin to increase... Fingers crossed its going in the right direction. 

So you don't think I should put the Carbon back in the filter? It has been in there like 8 weeks just wasn't sure if it was holding good bacteria... 


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## longgonedaddy

The carbon might be holding some bacteria, but you'll eventually have to get rid of it anyway. Do it now, when you don't have fish.


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## [email protected]

Thanks Longgone I will post results tonight 


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## [email protected]

Ok so Longgone may need your help...

I have done another test so this is day 2 without a water change. I have done loads previous to this like shed loads. 

Here are my results from yesterday 










I have reduced my CO2 so my PH readings have increased which is to be expected. 

My Ammonia levels seem to have stayed the same since yesterday but my Nitrite and Nitrate have increased see below for today's results:










I will post more results tomorrow... When should I do another 95% water change or should I let the tank work for a while? 


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## longgonedaddy

Let it work!

Nitrites are rising because the bacteria is now keeping up with the ammonia the ADA is putting out. Now the second set of bacteria need to reproduce to levels to keep up with the nitrite. 

As long as your plants aren't suffering, don't do a water change. 

I can't tell from the pic, is the ammonia at zero? If it is, that's very encouraging. And regardless, even if some, it's much better than it was and will soon drop to none.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Let it work!
> 
> Nitrites are rising because the bacteria is now keeping up with the ammonia the ADA is putting out. Now the second set of bacteria need to reproduce to levels to keep up with the nitrite.
> 
> As long as your plants aren't suffering, don't do a water change.
> 
> I can't tell from the pic, is the ammonia at zero? If it is, that's very encouraging. And regardless, even if some, it's much better than it was and will soon drop to none.




Thanks Longgone, been waiting on your response. That's fantastic news. 

Yes the ammonia is at 0 maybe just .2 over not sure it's hard to read but pretty much 0 in my eyes. 

So will the second set of bacteria reduce the Nitrites? That's good just wish I knew how long.... I am keeping patient. 

Plants seem fine baby tears never looked better but lots of ferts in. 

I will post more results tomorrow 


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## Hilde

Nitrates are low. Moss needs potassium. Thinking dosing with KNO3 (potassium nitrate) and K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) would help. Perhaps .5 tsp of KNO3 daily for a week. Then perhaps 1tsp of K2O4 daily for a week will help.


For just a few ferts I buy them on Amazon. Spectricide stump remover is 100% KNO3. In garden section of stores in the summer. Other sites for ferts are aquarium fertilizer, greenleaf aquariums,and niclog. The price from these sites is approx $7.


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## longgonedaddy

Ben, you may experience some increase in nitrite, definite increase in nitrate unless your plants are using it. Ammonia will be low to none. 

The way the cycle works, is that ammonia is produced by soil/animals/adding it/whatever. Bacteria (nitrosomonas) present in the air and water begin to eat it, an of course, reproduce. They process it out as nitrite. Now the nitrobacter bacteria eat the nitrite. They of course reproduce as well. But they output nitrate, which plants can take up, but no bacteria makes any impact on nitrates. So export of them comes either through the plants using it as fuel, or you doing water changes. 

While the water changes were necessary to save your plants, I think they might have been starving the nitrobacters, and they are now able to have a full feast. That's why you're seeing the lag, and why I say stop the changes. Let them eat and reproduce. 

Unless of course, the ADA starts kicking out tons of ammonia, and your plants suffer. But I would think we're past that.


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> Hello, well I just received some Potasium so dosed that 10ml per 100l and it's a 240 tank.


Which potassium? There is potassium - bicarbonate, carbonate, chloride, monopotassium phosphate, nitrate, oxide. phosphate, and sulfate


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## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> Which potassium? There is potassium - bicarbonate, carbonate, chloride, monopotassium phosphate, nitrate, oxide. phosphate, and sulfate




The Christmas moss died due to user error. I did a dry start and burnt most of the xmas moss. However now it has started to recover almost all come back just a few patches. 

These are my ferts









They have done wonders for the HC, but can cause Algae if dose to high. 




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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Ben, you may experience some increase in nitrite, definite increase in nitrate unless your plants are using it. Ammonia will be low to none.
> 
> 
> 
> The way the cycle works, is that ammonia is produced by soil/animals/adding it/whatever. Bacteria (nitrosomonas) present in the air and water begin to eat it, an of course, reproduce. They process it out as nitrite. Now the nitrobacter bacteria eat the nitrite. They of course reproduce as well. But they output nitrate, which plants can take up, but no bacteria makes any impact on nitrates. So export of them comes either through the plants using it as fuel, or you doing water changes.
> 
> 
> 
> While the water changes were necessary to save your plants, I think they might have been starving the nitrobacters, and they are now able to have a full feast. That's why you're seeing the lag, and why I say stop the changes. Let them eat and reproduce.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless of course, the ADA starts kicking out tons of ammonia, and your plants suffer. But I would think we're past that.




Thanks Longgone. 

I agree regarding not doing the water changes. The ammonia seems to be under control so it's just the Nitrite. 

Well I think I will see an increase in Nitrite for a short while but this should hopefuls come back down. 





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## [email protected]

Some of my plants














































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## Hilde

Those are great ferts. Expensive to dose even for a small tank. Dry ferts are more economical. Plants starting to look good now. The carb dosing of 10ml is not enough, though for star grass.


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## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> Those are great ferts. Expensive to dose even for a small tank. Dry ferts are more economical. Plants starting to look good now. The carb dosing of 10ml is not enough, though for star grass.




Thanks Hilde, no i am not dosing 10 more like 30 - 60 weekly. However I am going to reduce it. I had Algae under control then I decided to turn off the aquarium doctor.... (Twinstar copy) as I wanted some Algae for the Siamese Algae eaters when I bought them. However 3 days later algae exploded so have turned it back on again. This machine is amazing works wonders. 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> i am not dosing 10 more like 30 - 60 weekly. However I am going to reduce it. I had Algae under control then I decided to turn off the aquarium doctor.... (Twinstar copy) as I wanted some Algae for the Siamese Algae eaters when I bought them. However 3 days later algae exploded so have turned it back on again. This machine is amazing works wonders.


Carbon additive you usually dose at least every other day. Many plants like moss are sensitive to most carbon additives. I know moss can tolerate brightwell aquatics co2 additive florinaxis.

Are you injecting Co2?
Is this the aquarium doctor?


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## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> Carbon additive you usually dose at least every other day. Many plants like moss are sensitive to most carbon additives. I know moss can tolerate brightwell aquatics co2 additive florinaxis.
> 
> Are you injecting Co2?
> Is this the aquarium doctor?




Yeah that's the aquarium doctor. It's fantastic. Yeah I inject CO2 just recently turned down to bring up the PH plus adding fish soon so want plants to settle to new CO2 setting without having to blast them all the time. 


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## Hilde

So the Co2 additive was just to kill algae?


----------



## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> So the Co2 additive was just to kill algae?




No that's not CO2 Additive... This is plant feed. It's a mix of Potadsium and Iron 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> No that's not CO2 Additive... This is plant feed. It's a mix of Potadsium and Iron


I am talking about the carbon additive.


----------



## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> - easyCarbo 10ml daily (thinking maybe it's this)


Did you not dose this which is a Co2 additive?


----------



## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> Did you not dose this which is a Co2 additive?




Alright. Makes sense now. Yeah but I stopped because it was actually killing the plants. Not sure why maybe too much. 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> Alright. Makes sense now. Yeah but I stopped because it was actually killing the plants. Not sure why maybe too much.


Possible too much for the type of plants. Stargrass though I was told can not be grown without injecting Co2. I grew it though by dosing Co2 additive Cidex.


----------



## [email protected]

All ok maybe stupid question but as I have no fish should I be dosing prime if it's just plants? Wonder if this is affecting my cycle? 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> All ok maybe stupid question but as I have no fish should I be dosing prime if it's just plants? Wonder if this is affecting my cycle?


A pet store employee told me that it speeds up the cycle. You could test this.


----------



## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> A pet store employee told me that it speeds up the cycle. You could test this.




Did you then buy it off him? Maybe that's why he said that. [emoji3]. 

Yeah no water changes yet listening to Longgone advice on this one as he has been right so far. 
However next water change I may not dose. I will do some research first. 

Hilde, you got pictures of your tank?


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> Did you then buy it off him? Maybe that's why he said that. [emoji3].
> 
> Yeah no water changes yet listening to Longgone advice on this one as he has been right so far.
> However next water change I may not dose. I will do some research first.
> 
> Hilde, you got pictures of your tank?


It was at Petsmart. I couldn't continue to use it though for I had an allergic reaction to it.

My tank is not presentable now. I have been ill thus not dosing ferts as I should have. Now dosing so much the water is cloudy. Don't know if anybody has had that happen. Dosing Seachem Equilib, Iron sulfate, KNO3, and Sodium bicarb.


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## [email protected]

Ok so results after day 3.... 










Ammonia I think is the same...Nitrite has increased slightly and Nitrate has increased. 

Longgone any advice now? Should I leave 1 more day then do a water change? 

Also I have stopped dosing ferts I have an algae battle on my hands all where I did a direct dose. 


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## longgonedaddy

I don't think you need to do a water change. Keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite. I think at this point, unless they get up over 2.0 you should be in good shape. 

Now, scour the fert dosing threads to try to figure out the balance you need.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> I don't think you need to do a water change. Keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite. I think at this point, unless they get up over 2.0 you should be in good shape.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, scour the fert dosing threads to try to figure out the balance you need.




Thanks Longgone. When you think I will need a water change? Aiming for end of Jan for some fish.... 

I will post more results tomorrow. 

I most def know and understand why all the algae is there try 90ml of ferts per day for 4 days... No wonder the plants did so well. I had the wrong containers I did think why I was running low.... 

But on a plus note plants doing we'll I had been using a Synge during water changes for direct dose my noting how much was benign added. Turns out when you add all these ferts then stop 90 % water changes you get algae chaos

I will post new results tomorrow. 


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Longgone. When you think I will need a water change? Aiming for end of Jan for some fish....


Adjust your aim to when you have 0 ammonia and 0 nitrite. :wink2:


----------



## Hilde

longgonedaddy said:


> I don't think you need to do a water change. Keep an eye on the ammonia and nitrite. I think at this point, unless they get up over 2.0 you should be in good shape.
> 
> Now, scour the fert dosing threads to try to figure out the balance you need.


Here is a calculator that Hoppy uses


----------



## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> Turns out when you add all these ferts then stop 90 % water changes you get algae chaos


That doesn't sound logical. For when cycling you don't do water changes until nitrites are 0. Doing that with fish would stress them out. Sounds like you are over dosing.


----------



## longgonedaddy

Hilde said:


> That doesn't sound logical. For when cycling you don't do water changes until nitrites are 0. Doing that with fish would stress them out. Sounds like you are over dosing.


ADA recommends doing changes when cycling with AS.


----------



## [email protected]

Amazing amazing!!!! So ok I have no idea what has happened but my Nitrite has suddenly overnight gone to 0. Is this normal? 

Here are my results from yesterday 










And these are my results from today











The only thing I did was stop dosing ferts... Plants are doing great, CO2 been lowered again and everything looking good. 

This is day 4 since last water change... What next am I ready for fish???? Can't wait finally after almost two months. 


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Amazing amazing!!!! So ok I have no idea what has happened but my Nitrite has suddenly overnight gone to 0. Is this normal?
> 
> Here are my results from yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And these are my results from today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I did was stop dosing ferts... Plants are doing great, CO2 been lowered again and everything looking good.
> 
> This is day 4 since last water change... What next am I ready for fish???? Can't wait finally after almost two months.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks like you almost ready Ben... looking forward to seeing it all stocked. I would still wait as others stated until you have 0 nitrites and can keep the nitrates under 10ppm which I don't think you will have trouble with.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> Looks like you almost ready Ben... looking forward to seeing it all stocked. I would still wait as others stated until you have 0 nitrites and can keep the nitrates under 10ppm which I don't think you will have trouble with.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




Thanks Dan. 

Yeah I think so... Plants have gone crazy I have cut the star grass 4 times now and they need doing again as my trees has disappeared almost. The Christmas moss is coming back to life turning green again and the HC (baby tears) are spreading like crazy and popping up out of the ground. 













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## longgonedaddy

Excellent! A couple more days at 0's and I'd say your cycle is complete. 

What are your fish plans?


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Excellent! A couple more days at 0's and I'd say your cycle is complete.
> 
> 
> 
> What are your fish plans?




Thanks Longgone....

I was thinking of 

20 rummy nose tetra - good for schooling 

10 Zebra danios 

4 Sienese Algae eaters 

And 3 Kuhli loach the zebra ones. 

I do like the red tetra ones though. 

Any fish you think would look amazing in this? 


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> Any fish you think would look amazing in this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Whichever ones make you smile. (And of course, fit in the tank.:nerd: ). 

You might want to bump up the Kuhlis a little bit, the more they have, the less they hide.

And if you really want my opinion, I'd ditch the algae eaters. too big and busy for my tastes. But that's really just my opinion, not based on much. But if you like them, no reason not to get them.


----------



## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Longgone....
> 
> I was thinking of
> 
> 20 rummy nose tetra - good for schooling
> 
> 10 Zebra danios
> 
> 4 Sienese Algae eaters
> 
> And 3 Kuhli loach the zebra ones.
> 
> I do like the red tetra ones though.
> 
> Any fish you think would look amazing in this?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you decide on SAE's make sure you find the real ones not the flying fox's as they tend to eat some mosses and fish food as well as algae. Also on a side note sometimes they can get a little aggressive with smaller fish and will grow to about 4-6 inches. An alternative would be otocinclus but that's not to say SAE's would not work for you.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Thanks Dan. 

I also quite like dwarf cichlids some amazing one in the 95 gallon tank post. 

So it looks like my tank is almost self sustained no water changes in 5 days now and looks like the good bacteria is working Nitrite is now 0ppm and ammonia at 0ppm. So looks like I can get some fish. 










What does everyone think? Am I ready to stock fish? Also can I stock big quantities at once since I have spent two months doing the cycle and it's been fish less. 




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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Dan.
> 
> I also quite like dwarf cichlids some amazing one in the 95 gallon tank post.
> 
> So it looks like my tank is almost self sustained no water changes in 5 days now and looks like the good bacteria is working Nitrite is now 0ppm and ammonia at 0ppm. So looks like I can get some fish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What does everyone think? Am I ready to stock fish? Also can I stock big quantities at once since I have spent two months doing the cycle and it's been fish less.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looks good to go. You could probably get away with adding all at once but you would have to keep a very close eye on water parameters and be ready in case you need to do daily or every other day water changes. Or you could go the safe route and add a group and see how it goes for a week then go from there which is probably the better bet. If it was me I would add em all and just be prepared incase I need to step up water changes but that's just me.

Dan

Dan


----------



## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> Looks good to go. You could probably get away with adding all at once but you would have to keep a very close eye on water parameters and be ready in case you need to do daily or every other day water changes. Or you could go the safe route and add a group and see how it goes for a week then go from there which is probably the better bet. If it was me I would add em all and just be prepared incase I need to step up water changes but that's just me.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




Perfect thanks Dan. 

I don't think I can get them all at once as different suppliers etc. 

I was thinking of adding the 20 Rummy Nose Tetra and either the OTTO or the Siamese Alage eaters depending on which I get. 

Can I ask a question though. I have the Python water changer which basically connects to your tap... I am happy to do daily water changes but is it ok to add the de chlorine to the water once the water is in the tank? It says this is safe online but I am not sure. 

Many thanks 


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## [email protected]

Also I suppose it's obvious that I should do a water change prior to the fish being added 


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## longgonedaddy

Dman911 said:


> Looks good to go. You could probably get away with adding all at once but you would have to keep a very close eye on water parameters and be ready in case you need to do daily or every other day water changes. Or you could go the safe route and add a group and see how it goes for a week then go from there which is probably the better bet. If it was me I would add em all and just be prepared incase I need to step up water changes but that's just me.
> 
> Dan
> 
> Dan


I'm with Dan! Get them all in, and with your attention to testing, there won't be any problems.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> I'm with Dan! Get them all in, and with your attention to testing, there won't be any problems.




Thanks Longgone. I will try don't think I can get them all in at once but will try within a week. Thanks all. 

Should I do a water change prior to fish coming? 


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Perfect thanks Dan.
> 
> I don't think I can get them all at once as different suppliers etc.
> 
> I was thinking of adding the 20 Rummy Nose Tetra and either the OTTO or the Siamese Alage eaters depending on which I get.
> 
> Can I ask a question though. I have the Python water changer which basically connects to your tap... I am happy to do daily water changes but is it ok to add the de chlorine to the water once the water is in the tank? It says this is safe online but I am not sure.
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use a python too, and find no ill effects of treating the water while I'm filling but you need to treat for the full volume of the tank if your tank is 75g then you need to add enough to treat 75g not just the amount of water your adding. In regards to water change if you have less than 10 ppm nitrates your good to go if not do a water change some ppl say 20 ppm I prefer under 10ppm and like to keep it under 5ppm while my fish are growing. With Discus I shoot for 0 and change water daily or every other day. 

Dan


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## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> I use a python too, and find no ill effects of treating the water while I'm filling but you need to treat for the full volume of the tank if your tank is 75g then you need to add enough to treat 75g not just the amount of water your adding. In regards to water change if you have less than 10 ppm nitrates your good to go if not do a water change some ppl say 20 ppm I prefer under 10ppm and like to keep it under 5ppm while my fish are growing. With Discus I shoot for 0 and change water daily or every other day.
> 
> 
> 
> Dan




Thanks Dan. Your the man [emoji3]!!!! Fantastic I will do as you suggested. Fish this weekend. I will post pics 


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## Hilde

Yes it looks like you are ready for fish. I find starting with 3 fish a week helps keep the system balanced. Otherwise I loose a few fish.


----------



## [email protected]

Should I do a water change before adding the fish? This is day 6 without one? Going to get some of the fish today 


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## [email protected]

Oh never mind I just seen Dan post again. I will do another water change then. 


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## [email protected]

So I have decided to wait one more day before I get fish... The reason being is I took another reading of the tank and notice that PH levels are high prior to the CO2 kicking in. Is this a bad thing?










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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> So I have decided to wait one more day before I get fish... The reason being is I took another reading of the tank and notice that PH levels are high prior to the CO2 kicking in. Is this a bad thing?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



A PH drop of about 1.0 is normal when injecting Co2. The important thing is a stable KH so your PH doesn't crash. 


Dan


----------



## [email protected]

Dman911 said:


> A PH drop of about 1.0 is normal when injecting Co2. The important thing is a stable KH so your PH doesn't crash.
> 
> 
> Dan




Thanks Dan, I will purchase a KH tester kit. 


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## [email protected]

Ok so got some fish. 

12 Ember Tetra 
2 dwarf cichlids not sure on which... But look fantastic. 
And 6 OTTO. 

They have been in two hours Ember are now schooling... Woman in shop must have injured one as one has a red eye and is hiding away. 

Rest are going great and the male keeps chasing this female. 










Also think one of the Ember is pregnant. 


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## [email protected]

And the fish are going crazy eating the thousands of cyclops in the tank. 


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## Nlewis

Welcome to keeping Apistos, you'll love them.


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## [email protected]

Nlewis said:


> Welcome to keeping Apistos, you'll love them.




Is that what there called. I wanted two males and one female but the girl in the shop said they will get aggressive like this? Is this true? Also the make is far more active than the female. Suppose that's life haha. 


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## [email protected]

Female turned him down [emoji3]... Tried to catch the damage ember that the shop gave me. It's eye is most certainly red and buldge not sure if it will make it through the night.... Excuse Rugrats in the background my little boy is watch it https://vimeo.com/200501578


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## Nlewis

[email protected] said:


> Is that what there called. I wanted two males and one female but the girl in the shop said they will get aggressive like this? Is this true? Also the make is far more active than the female. Suppose that's life haha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Apistogramma Aggassizii is what you have there, and yes you'd rather have multiple females to 1 male. To many men and not enough women make for and aquarium bar fight.


----------



## [email protected]

Also is this Ember pregnant? You can guess which one. Would be good to know... https://vimeo.com/200502463


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## [email protected]

Nlewis said:


> Apistogramma Aggassizii is what you have there, and yes you'd rather have multiple females to 1 male. To many men and not enough women make for and aquarium bar fight.




That brings back memories Nlewis.... Thanks. I think they look amazing. May get another pair 


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## longgonedaddy

Nice fish!


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## Willcooper

Nice tank!


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## Willcooper

Nice tank! I thought I would share this with this thread considering this was about 150 posts about cycling a tank. I logged my cycle daily during a fishless cycle back in 2015. I wasn't using aquasoil so I was able to control the ammonia better. My substrate was ecocomplete and was med stocked with plants right away with no co2. I purchased a beneficial bacteria starter bottle from petco and ignored the directions of adding just a bit per day and dumped the entire bottle directly into the filter. I used pure ammonia and dosed it daily to try to maintain 2ppm. Went over a bunch of times. I was able to cycle this tank in two weeks using this method. Please see the logs in the attached pics. I dumped all the bb in to start based on an experienced hobbyist thoughts via YouTube. Hopefully this is useful for someone new to the game. Cycling can be a painstaking process because all we want to do is get some fish in there.





















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## Nordic

It can be balancing act. 
hope your male fish also learn some lank skills to impress the girls.


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## [email protected]

All ok so it's day two with the following fish:

12 Ember Tetra 
6 Otto 
2 dwarf cichlids 

And as of today 
6 Siamese algae eaters the real ones. 

But I have run into my first problem. 

Levels are beginning to rise 

Should I do a water change also how big. 











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## Nordic

Only saw the ember related question just now.
Now she is not pregnant (she lays eggs), she does seem to be full of eggs, and if you put her and a male in a tank with a plastic spawning mat with a small clump of java in the middle for a day or two, they should lay eggs and not be able to eat them.

Now, the tricky part with these fry are that they are incredibly small as larvae, and you might think there is nothing in the tank. give it a week or so, then lift the rock you used to weigh down the plastic spawning mat. some dust and stuff will probably shake loose, if you have a light shining from the opposite side, you will se some of the dust behaving weirdly.... they are _that _small. They are tough as nails though, and by just putting a large load of java moss in the tank, they should be able to find something to eat until they can take powdered food or BBS. I supplement mine with green water from one of my ponds, for food..

I discovered my first batch when they were about 10 mm long already, without ever being fed. I just left the tank and fiulter running after I returned the adults to their tank and kinda gave up on it.... then one day I saw the fry.


----------



## Willcooper

[email protected] said:


> All ok so it's day two with the following fish:
> 
> 12 Ember Tetra
> 6 Otto
> 2 dwarf cichlids
> 
> And as of today
> 6 Siamese algae eaters the real ones.
> 
> But I have run into my first problem.
> 
> Levels are beginning to rise
> 
> Should I do a water change also how big.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




50% water change right away and keep a sharp eye out on the ammonia and nitrite. The fish don't like any of those so if you detect do a water change. Your bb will grow to the appropriate level to keep them in check. Also don't feed too much. Every other day is usually fine. 


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## [email protected]

Many thanks. Fed today and done a 70% water change. Do I not need to feed them daily? Enough algae to keep the others going. I'll do more tests tomorrow. 


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## Nordic

Not unless they are growing.


----------



## Dman911

Love the fish! Just keep on the testing and changes, if things spike quickly you can add some extra prime with the water changes to help. And yes defiantly feed lightly until everything is balanced back out. I would say the #1 reason for fish death due to poor water quality is over feeding. These guys can go a week without food when your in dire straights (as a last resort of control). Sparingly every other day for a week or so should be enough to allow your BB to catch up. You may find the spike is due more to overfeeding than stocking in which case a couple days should be back to normal.

Dan


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## [email protected]

Thanks Dan. Did some tests after water change. See below: this is with the prime added. I have reduced feeding and will only feed a little I also sucked up any food on the bottom when I did the WC.










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## Willcooper

[email protected] said:


> Thanks Dan. Did some tests after water change. See below: this is with the prime added. I have reduced feeding and will only feed a little I also sucked up any food on the bottom when I did the WC.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




What happened to the nitrate test? Did you test it? Never seen clear results. 


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## Dman911

Willcooper said:


> What happened to the nitrate test? Did you test it? Never seen clear results.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Lid is off the tube I would have to assume it was not tested yet in the photo.

Dan


----------



## [email protected]

Funny... No Nitrate wasn't tested. Will all be tested today figured there was no point doing a Nitrate right after the WC. 


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## [email protected]

Levels increasing again. Should I just add prime or do a water change and add prime? Both Nitrite and Amonnia at 0.25ppm 


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## [email protected]

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## Nordic

No food should make it to the bottom, if it does, put a little petri dish or something on the floor to catch most.
Ok, I have the benefit of keeping my bottom dwellers and other fish separate, so it is quite easy to feed them.
I'd just knock levels down with some prime treated water.


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## [email protected]

Did a 50% water change and added some prime. Fish seem happy. 

I am going away tomorrow that's why I did it today. 

Now my Python plastic screw has broken so will need to see if I can get a. Brass one. 

Anyway fish seem happy just watching CO2 levels my HC seems to have taken a nock lots of dead leaves however I have seen this happen before and it bounced back after dosing with ferts only now I don't have as much CO2 to give them so let's hope they come back. Although saying that all my plants seem to have taken a nock think it's due to the hydrogen peroxide I put in the other day. Not using that again. Maybe just use it to refresh my purigen 


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## [email protected]

How amazing are these guys... Love these Siamese Algae Eaters....

https://vimeo.com/200729148

Almost eaten all the algae in 2 days. Only got 6 of them. Wish I didn't get the 6 Otto. 

Also these are the real SAE I checked but shop labelled them as Flying Fox. So cool. 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> How amazing are these guys... Love these Siamese Algae Eaters....
> 
> Almost eaten all the algae in 2 days. Only got 6 of them.


They may out grow your tank for read that they get up to 6in.


----------



## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> They may out grow your tank for read that they get up to 6in.




No not the SAE only the fake ones I.e the flying fox. It's 240litres so quite big. 


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## [email protected]

Apologies Hilde you're absolutely right. Maybe when they start getting bigger I will get rid of some. 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> No not the SAE only the fake ones I.e the flying fox. It's 240litres so quite big.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here see they can get up to 6in but usually around 4in.


----------



## [email protected]

Ok so I have not been very active for a while. I have taken the last lot of readings today here are the new results. Not sure if this is due to the Purigen that got put in a couple of hours ago or because my BB is starting to cope.









Also my ember tetra I think is pregnant so it's in a hatchery want it to lay some eggs.










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## Nordic

Lol, the fish below will just eat the eggs. You only need a 10 gal tank to put a pair in for about a day. Heck you could use a plastic washing up dish.
You don;t need anything fancy, low power air pump, small foam filter... and a heater if it cold. I'm breeding them without any heaters as it is summer here.

Oh , and you will need to add one of the small male fish. Midday to midday works well.

You can drape some shade cloth or netting to keep them from the eggs, and I'd double up on the amount of java you are using for the spawn site.
Once you take the parents out, put as much moss as you have in there. and forget about the tank for a while, the babies are really small at first and easy to miss.









This is the kind of setup I use, I'd just swap the filter for a foam one to help feed the larvae.


----------



## [email protected]

Nordic said:


> Lol, the fish below will just eat the eggs. You only need a 10 gal tank to put a pair in for about a day. Heck you could use a plastic washing up dish.
> You don;t need anything fancy, low power air pump, small foam filter... and a heater if it cold. I'm breeding them without any heaters as it is summer here.
> 
> Oh , and you will need to add one of the small male fish. Midday to midday works well.
> 
> You can drape some shade cloth or netting to keep them from the eggs, and I'd double up on the amount of java you are using for the spawn site.
> Once you take the parents out, put as much moss as you have in there. and forget about the tank for a while, the babies are really small at first and easy to miss.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the kind of setup I use, I'd just swap the filter for a foam one to help feed the larvae.




Will the eggs fall through I thought they couldn't? As its a hatchery... Do I need to add a male? I can put some form at the bottom to stop any eggs falling through if that's the case... I don't have another tank I purchase the hatchery for hatching the eggs. 


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## [email protected]

This is the hatchery but I removed the middle bit to give the tetra more room as she was going nuts.... The middle bit was just to separate the parent from the eggs.










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## Hilde

Nordic said:


> Lol, the fish below will just eat the eggs. You only need a 10 gal tank to put a pair in for about a day.
> 
> Oh , and you will need to add one of the small male fish. Midday to midday works well.


1st you say put a pair in 10g tank for a day. Then you say add 1 small male. So you put female in for a few days and then a male? 


Nordic said:


> Drape some shade cloth or netting to keep them from the eggs,


So the eggs would get under the shade cloth or netting?


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## [email protected]

I'm confused. Do I add the male? Do I add I cloth on the bottom? Will the eggs really fit through the holes in the hatchery? I would think this would be a complete design flaw. 


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## GrampsGrunge

Nordic said:


> Only saw the ember related question just now.
> Now she is not pregnant (she lays eggs), she does seem to be full of eggs, and if you put her and a male in a tank with a plastic spawning mat with a small clump of java in the middle for a day or two, they should lay eggs and not be able to eat them.
> 
> Now, the tricky part with these fry are that they are incredibly small as larvae, and you might think there is nothing in the tank. give it a week or so, then lift the rock you used to weigh down the plastic spawning mat. some dust and stuff will probably shake loose, if you have a light shining from the opposite side, you will se some of the dust behaving weirdly.... they are _that _small. They are tough as nails though, and by just putting a large load of java moss in the tank, they should be able to find something to eat until they can take powdered food or BBS. I supplement mine with green water from one of my ponds, for food..
> 
> I discovered my first batch when they were about 10 mm long already, without ever being fed. I just left the tank and fiulter running after I returned the adults to their tank and kinda gave up on it.... then one day I saw the fry.


Pretty much my experience also. The thing about newly hatched tetra babies isn't just the tiny size, it's the absolute glass like transparency of their young. They are darnnear impossible to see for nearly 2 weeks.

If you can turn the overhead lighting down and do side lighting on the spawning tank they show up better. 

If you have good night-time vision, a few days after they spawn, in the evening turn a small LED flashlight on it's side, shining it obliquely up through the short side of the tank, and take a small pair of tweezers and gently shake the spawning media while watching the water from the long side of the tank. The babies will look like amazing, tiny little glass splinters that swim in crazy spirals, up and out of the spawning media, if there's any number of them present. 

They aren't much bigger than the teardrop shaped part of a book text sized exclamation point. The other issue with a lot of tetras is the eggs and babies don't survive well with really high light levels present. You need to spawn them in a darkened tank. Neons demand it, needing to be covered with a black trash bag for 3 days after the adults lay their eggs.


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## longgonedaddy

Ben, I skimmed through the past few posts about breeding, and I don't think one of your questions was answered. Tetras have external fertilization, so your female isn't truly pregnant, just egg laden. She'll need a male in close proximity to fertilize the eggs as they drop.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Ben, I skimmed through the past few posts about breeding, and I don't think one of your questions was answered. Tetras have external fertilization, so your female isn't truly pregnant, just egg laden. She'll need a male in close proximity to fertilize the eggs as they drop.




Thanks Longone I will put a male in with her... That's if I can catch one. 

I have removed the middle part as it was so small although lots of reviews on Amazon about this with people breeding guppies but can't see how it will be big enough to be honest. 

Thanks I will post pics tomorrow have put some wool down on the bottom to catch the eggs. 

Now I just need to fix my CO2 solenoid as it keeps sticking on. 


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## longgonedaddy

Tetras spawn regularly, there's no need to hurry if you're not ready for it. Especially if you've got CO2 issues.


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## Nordic

They will not spawn in that box thingy.... the boxy is useful if you want to take already fertilised large eggs from parents guarding a nest, or cory eggs are taken from the glass.
Some people use them to separate live bearers and fry during birth.


A female can produce eggs on her own.... but they will be blanks if not fertilised by a male. So they need to be together to spawn and fertilise the eggs first.

I think the glow lights are ok for light, although I did get a larger batch of fry with the previous batch in a tank with wood stained water letting a bit less light in.
(oh yeah, your water has to be on the soft side or the males will not be able to fertilise them) Firs time I used a leaching log of Mopani, the second time I just put some peat moss in a box filter with some floss to soften the water.

The eggs are not sticky, so they fall trough any small gaps (the reason I use the spawn mats).

Regarding the shade cloth, just get a meter of the lowest shade rating net hanging around at the hardware shop... the eggs are quite small, but larger than danio eggs.
Another way of doing it is with marbles in the bottom or pea sized smooth gravel from the pet shop. Basically, you want to separate the eggs and parents, how you do it depends on your resources/resourcefulness.

Anybody else having a chuckle at the loose grip on reproductive science here? It is important to explain the bees and the birds really early on to kids.


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## longgonedaddy

Nordic said:


> Anybody else having a chuckle at the loose grip on reproductive science here? It is important to explain the bees and the birds really early on to kids.


:laugh2:


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## [email protected]

Nordic Longgone thanks for input. Nordic I will challenge you on that reckon she will lay eggs and they will spawn. 

It is now day 3 and feed has increased and levels look good BB is coping either that or it's the Purigen. Ammonia has a little increase but not worried as it will come back down on its own. Trying to get to 1 week without a water change.









Going to catch a male tetra and put him in with her. 


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## [email protected]

Here we go










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## [email protected]

New additions https://vimeo.com/201588036


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## [email protected]

Also 4 weeks ago









Compared to now... Looks like the HC has grown










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## longgonedaddy

That's a spectacular tank!


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> That's a spectacular tank!




Thanks Longgone. Should look good once the tree grows back green and is trimmed then HC fully grows in. I reckon another month and it will almost be there. 


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## [email protected]

So tank is going really well I was thinking of starting a journal thanks to someone input on here. I have learned a lot over the last 4 months with everyone help and there are things I have done right and things I have done wrong including things I would of done differently. But here are the results with 40+ fish and no water changes for a week. 










Also here is the tank side view 











And front view my HC is really starting to grown in and my tree is almost recovered. 





























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## Hilde

longgonedaddy said:


> That's a spectacular tank!


:thumbsup:


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## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> :thumbsup:




Thanks Hilde. 

This was 4 weeks ago 










And now 









Just shows what can happen in a few weeks. 


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## sdwindansea

Nice work and the tank looks fantastic! Is there any way to move the heater to the left side so it is hidden? That is the only "criticism" I would have and it is obviously minor. Especially since you have it angled in the same direction as the rocks .


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## [email protected]

Thanks SD. I have two heaters one behind the tree you can just see the top of it. The reason for two heaters is for a backup. Also one is set at 25c and one is set at 24c. So only one will be on at once and it will reduce any cold spots. I wish I could hide it somewhere... 


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## sdwindansea

I see it now. A backup is not a bad idea obviously. Do you have them hooked up to a controller to make sure they do not overheat the tank? The only other thought would be an line heater but not sure if that is an option for you.


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## [email protected]

sdwindansea said:


> I see it now. A backup is not a bad idea obviously. Do you have them hooked up to a controller to make sure they do not overheat the tank? The only other thought would be an line heater but not sure if that is an option for you.




What do you mean hooked up to a controller so they do not overheat the tank? They have a temp set on them and turn off when they reach that temp... 

Are the inline heaters prone to leak? I have the pump coming up through the bottom of the tank as it is a fluval Roma 240. 




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## sdwindansea

The temperature controller protects your tank in case a heater gets stuck in the "on" position. In other words it continues to heat the tank even after the temperature is reached. It is not common but it does happen. It is relatively cheap insurance. Here are a couple posts related to this.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1041193-eheim-submersible-heater-started-cooking-my-tank.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/1041305-inkbird-vs-finnex-heater-controllers.html

As far as the inline heater is concerned, mine doesn't leak but I'm sure you could find people who have had a problem with it, just like any other piece of equipment. Hydor is the only manufacturer I'm aware of that makes inline heaters. I've been very happy with mine and I know there are plenty of other people on this forum who feel the same way.


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## [email protected]

Thanks SD for all the advice. May take you up on it. There not that expensive. I have a lot of kit on the tank think 2k so far been spent. 

I have now started off my Daphines in a Jar ... Fish love them and they are multiplying. 

https://vimeo.com/202566212

My Apisto I think has also laid eggs under the tree as she is defiantly protecting something. 

Also had to DIY my surface skimmer as the Ember tetra kept swimming into it. Had lost two of them from this but put a net on top to solve the problem. 


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## [email protected]

Some of the baby tears have started to melt again, anyone seen this before are they just shredding leaves for new growth the leaves are gong dark green then dying



















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## Opare

Hard to say why it is dying what have you changed recently since they were doing well? CO2 has gone down if I remember correctly, maybe that is it. Or it could be a nutrient deficiency depending on what you are dosing currently. I would lean more to the nutrient deficiency side.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> Hard to say why it is dying what have you changed recently since they were doing well? CO2 has gone down if I remember correctly, maybe that is it. Or it could be a nutrient deficiency depending on what you are dosing currently. I would lean more to the nutrient deficiency side.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Opare, thanks. I was wondering if this could be due to an overdose of ferts? Noticed rocks turning orange as too much Iron in the tank. 

I did dose dry ferts the day this started but didn't stop dosing other ferts could this be an overdose? Co2 has not changed. It's getting worse to... However I wouldn't think the plants would start melting the same day I would have thought the plants would reflect why you did a few days prior I.e if it's melting. 


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## Opare

[email protected] said:


> Opare, thanks. I was wondering if this could be due to an overdose of ferts? Noticed rocks turning orange as too much Iron in the tank.
> 
> I did dose dry ferts the day this started but didn't stop dosing other ferts could this be an overdose? Co2 has not changed. It's getting worse to... However I wouldn't think the plants would start melting the same day I would have thought the plants would reflect why you did a few days prior I.e if it's melting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Overdosing fertilisers leads to toxicities but that won't look like what you are getting. Exactly how much are you dosing?
Yeah plants will change depending on what you've done a few days or weeks prior. So I don't think it is the dry fertilisers.
As for the algae on the rocks, I've seen people say Fe dosing can make algal issues worse, but I can't confirm that or say it is the root cause of your algae either.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> Overdosing fertilisers leads to toxicities but that won't look like what you are getting. Exactly how much are you dosing?
> Yeah plants will change depending on what you've done a few days or weeks prior. So I don't think it is the dry fertilisers.
> As for the algae on the rocks, I've seen people say Fe dosing can make algal issues worse, but I can't confirm that or say it is the root cause of your algae either.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




I dosed 1 cap of Iron every day for 4 days... Think this was too much since it states 1 cap per week. Flourish Iron. 










And 30ml of 







per day but plants have and seem to love this. 

I think it could be the Iron?? As all rocks are now orange. 




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## Opare

The recommended dosing on the Flourish Iron is pretty low TBH.
The rust colour could be diatoms which are quite normal with a new setup and tend to just appear on their own. They then dissapear on their own too though.


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## Opare

I can't seem to edit my post, but was also gonna say to compare how many PPMs of nutrients like nitrate for example you add with each dose of the Profito, and then compare that with EI dosing. If it is a lot lower deficiencies could still be a possibility for the ailing HC.
Also, I meant the recommended dosing on Flourish Iron is so low even if you added more than they said, you probably didn't overdose.
BTW I would consider moving this to a journal since this thread is quite off topic of what it was originally meant for hahaha.


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> I can't seem to edit my post, but was also gonna say to compare how many PPMs of nutrients like nitrate for example you add with each dose of the Profito, and then compare that with EI dosing. If it is a lot lower deficiencies could still be a possibility for the ailing HC.
> Also, I meant the recommended dosing on Flourish Iron is so low even if you added more than they said, you probably didn't overdose.
> BTW I would consider moving this to a journal since this thread is quite off topic of what it was originally meant for hahaha.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Thanks Opare. Yes I know right. I am going to start my own journal very soon. I have learned so much over the last few months but only because of people like you. I will be referencing all the people who have helped me along the way. Then I can detail this information to help others... 

Ok so you don't think I have overdosed I will take some pictures when I get home but it's likely worse. I haven't seen the tank today yet been at work all day. 

Ok so the only other thing that has changed is the following two things... 

I have put about 5 of these under the substrate... 










Comes in a pack of like 25. 

And the second thing that has changed is how I dose???? Which is interesting for weeks I had been putting the ferts in syringes and putting my arm in the tank and dosing directly on the HC. Then over the last few weeks I had just been adding the ferts to the water I.e not dosing directly. 

Could this of made a difference? 

Also all levels are the same maybe Nitrate is a little high but nothing huge.










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## [email protected]

Ok so I am finally home and these are the state of the HC I have no idea what's happened but it is spreading. 










Notice it is attacking the stems and the top of the HC then breaks off. 










My rocks have turned orange and speckled









And my star grass also showing signs of it being under stress the leaves are as they were before. 

Anyone got any ideas? It was too much ammonia last time however it's not that now. I will check the readings again and try doing a direct dose on the plants. 


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## [email protected]

Ok so here are the readings I have also bumped up the CO2 I will monitor the fish tonight to see if they can handle the CO2 levels. It's between 5-6 bubbles per second.









Nitrate is increasing a little so only fed fish a little tonight. 


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## [email protected]

Opare could this be the cause... What looks like black algae











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## Opare

Hmm interesting you say that the HC isn't doing as well since you stopped dosing them directly. Do you know if around the HC it gets good circulation that is a possibility. Not quite sure what that stuff is could be algae or a fungus or something else. Doesn't look like BBA or BGA, so I wouldn't freak out so much. Maybe just remove it physically. You may want to remove a lot of that dead moss as well, as it is throwing waste organics into your tank which helps algae grow.


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## [email protected]

Hello Opare, I don't think it's circulations as I haven't moved the filter outlet since my initial setup and would of thought I'd have seen this sooner. However and there is always a however... I am still seing signs of dying HC. I think it has slowed down. I say I think as it's hard to tell. I keep finding floating HC stems as they are breaking off. I will take some more pictures so you can see. 


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## [email protected]

I thought I had replied to this. I have moved the output of the filter to more of the HC. I can def see new growth but this is also spreading see pictures. It's hard to see in this but I keep getting stems of HC at the surface due to this attacking the stems also. I can't find anything online



















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## [email protected]

Ok so between the rocks the HC is fine and this is the only place I haven't done direct dose. Could it be that the reason for all this is the direct dosing??? I am lost with all this see pics of stems which have died at the stem and floated to the surface 



















looks worse in real life. Any help would be much appreciated. 















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## Opare

Unless you are directly dosing with something like Excel or H2O2, directly dosing on to plants will not cause an issue.
Are you confident the fertilisers are adding enough nutrients?


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## [email protected]

Opare said:


> Unless you are directly dosing with something like Excel or H2O2, directly dosing on to plants will not cause an issue.
> Are you confident the fertilisers are adding enough nutrients?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Yeah I would think so I mean today I dosed 60 ml of the Easy Life Profita. Which claims it has all of this. 










I have also lowed the lights duration by 1 hour as I recently increased it. So this stays on now for 9 hours instead of 10.. It was 8 for about a month previously but no pearling. I changed to 10 and so lots of pearling. I think 9 fits Inbetween . 

I actually increased it to see more Algae for the SAE. However I increased this 8 days ago now. Come to think of it could this have been the cause? I also so lots of increased growth with the new light duration tho... The HC would start to pearl at about 9 hours duration...

I have also lowered the temp on the tank to 26C instead of 27C. 

Not sure what else I can try... Don't want to do too much all at once as I won't know the cause but I want to stop it before it becomes serious. 

I haven't dosed anymore Iron since the weekend. Rocks are slowly coming clean with the SAE not as orange now. 

I have ordered some more Potasium too. As I ran out again come to think of it 6 days or so ago now... 




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## [email protected]

Ok may have found my answer. It prob most def the light period. As I have high light currently 2xT8 38W and 2xT5 54W on a 240 litre tank. 

This could explain it all I will stick to the 9 hours of light and see if this helps while keep dosing to keep up nutrients









Also this link is fantastic. 

https://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/what-causes-leaves-to-melt-and-what-to-do-now.20421/ hopefully this can help others. I need to start a journal. 

I will watch plants tomorrow and may even reduce back to 8 hours if this continues. 


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## Opare

Try not to keep changing stuff, having stable conditions is really important so the tank and plants don't have to constantly adapt.
Increasing the light would have increased the plants need for CO2 and nutrients which may have not been available. Keep things stable for a while and don't worry about pearling vs. no pearling it is. You can have healthy plants and growth without pearling.


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## [email protected]

Ok Opare... So it's stopped no more spreading. The old bits are still recovering but the HC is fighting back. 

So here are the things it could of been: 

1) FERTS not enough. Or not direct via syringe now dosing 2x30ml Profito daily direct to plants to recover. I do want to reduce this as this is expensive. Like £2 a day on ferts. 

2) flow not pointed to the bottom of the substrate. Not increased flow but directed to the HC I.e on the bottom of aquarium bed. 

3) temperature previously flux between 26.1 and 27.6C I have reduced this to flux between 25 and 26C. I.e nighttime and daytime when the lights are on. 

It can't be anything to do with light duration as I only changed this last night and it's not been on a full day yet. I am tempted to think this is either ferts or flow or even both? 

What's everyone's thoughts? 

Although it could be temp as last night Temp went down to 24C as I just let it reduce on its own. Maybe that's it. 

So the first thing I want to do is move to Dry ferts once the HC has fully recovered and monitor the plants. I bought this from CO2 supermarket: 









See link for full description. 

What's your view on this? Could this have been the cause of was this because it wasn't enough can I dose this along with Iron... So many questions so few answers. Lol. 


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## [email protected]

http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/all-in-one-macros-micros-fertiliser-aquarium-plants-p299.html


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## [email protected]

Ok maybe getting even closer could be a lack of phosphorus of Nigrogen as Profito doesn't contain these. Can I not just add more fish food to produce more nitrogen? 


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## ed.junior

So, I'm new to the forum but not to the hobby. I will try to give you some food for thought, my two cents.

1. I would use light as the "driver" for the tank. It will dictate the growth rate, and you adjust the rest to it. I have used 100+ watts of T5 tubes on a 60l tank with no algae. In my experience it is all about the balance. In your case, I would aim for 80 PAR at substrate level. The light calculator at RotalaButterfly.com can give you an estimate of how many PAR you have. This is a much better way to measure it.

2. My approach to ferts is Estimative Index, or as the creator, Tom Barr, puts it: no need for tests. I use dry salts and mix them myself. You should go this way, if you want it to be as cost effective as possible. Try thenutrientcompany.com, they are in the UK and Nigel is a great guy. 25£ will last for years, really. You can also use RotalaButterfly.com nutrient calculator to help you with the solutions. One note: one mix solutions are not complete. Mixing phosphates and iron on a single solution will cause them precipitate. That is why 99% of the available products have a macro and a micro mix. I can help you with that if needed.

3. Water changes are great. I don't know if that is possible to you, but if you do something like 50% weekly changes, then toxicity is just out of the equation (testing as well). Barr can explain this better than I. Basically you reset your tank weekly.

4. Dosing heavily is something that I am not afraid to do. I tried to see what would happen, and I have seen no bad results, no algae, etc. Now I have settled on 10ppm of NO3, 7ppm of K, and 4ppm of PO4, 3x per week, all that from KNO3, KH2PO4 and a bit of K2SO4. But that is my mix, I am sure you will find what works best for you. I also add 0.3 ppm of Fe (EDTA chelated), 3x per week.
Whatever is your dosing scheme, you will need NPK plus Fe and traces.
Overstocking fish will not help, actually it will make things worse, because fish produce initially ammonia, which was found to be the only element able to induce an algae outbreak (green water). You would also need to add P and K anyways. Your suggestion would be close to Diana Walstad approach, but she defends a "natural" approach, no co2, no dosing, etc. Her book is very interesting, but I would say its age is showing.

5. CO2 is almost always neglected. I have found out that people will usually measure the bubbles per second, but that is far from accurate. Dissolution also plays a big role, along with circulation. Try to measure your pH drop instead. Go for at least a 1 point pH drop (e.g. 7.4 to 6.4). This will give you roughly 30ppm of CO2. Pay attention to your dissolution strategy, is it working? Inline diffusers, ceramic plates, reactors, you have many options but, bottom line, how much of it really stays available to the plants? The pH drop will help there...

6. Biomass is also important. As plants grow, and they do grow accelerating, you should keep it in check. The plants will compete for everything: light, CO2, nutrients, etc. Keeping it short will help, but you can let things go "wild". Just be aware of the change in requirements (e.g. more biomass equals more CO2)

7. Filtering and circulation are not be neglected. I use a Eheim 2075 on 60l tank. The spray bar kills the excess flow. Just be sure you have an adequate system.


That is mostly all I could think. Hope it is useful. I will post a picture of my tank, just to show I have some of the same plants. The moss wall at the back is still far from done.










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## ed.junior

I would aim to the lower temp. 24C sounds great. The lower the the temp the higher the amount of CO2 that can stay dissolved in the water. If with room temperature your tank is around 24 at night and 25 with lights on, I would just ditch the heaters.

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> So, I'm new to the forum but not to the hobby. I will try to give you some food for thought, my two cents.
> 
> 1. I would use light as the "driver" for the tank. It will dictate the growth rate, and you adjust the rest to it. I have used 100+ watts of T5 tubes on a 60l tank with no algae. In my experience it is all about the balance. In your case, I would aim for 80 PAR at substrate level. The light calculator at RotalaButterfly.com can give you an estimate of how many PAR you have. This is a much better way to measure it.
> 
> 2. My approach to ferts is Estimative Index, or as the creator, Tom Barr, puts it: no need for tests. I use dry salts and mix them myself. You should go this way, if you want it to be as cost effective as possible. Try thenutrientcompany.com, they are in the UK and Nigel is a great guy. 25£ will last for years, really. You can also use RotalaButterfly.com nutrient calculator to help you with the solutions. One note: one mix solutions are not complete. Mixing phosphates and iron on a single solution will cause them precipitate. That is why 99% of the available products have a macro and a micro mix. I can help you with that if needed.
> 
> 3. Water changes are great. I don't know if that is possible to you, but if you do something like 50% weekly changes, then toxicity is just out of the equation (testing as well). Barr can explain this better than I. Basically you reset your tank weekly.
> 
> 4. Dosing heavily is something that I am not afraid to do. I tried to see what would happen, and I have seen no bad results, no algae, etc. Now I have settled on 10ppm of NO3, 7ppm of K, and 4ppm of PO4, 3x per week, all that from KNO3, KH2PO4 and a bit of K2SO4. But that is my mix, I am sure you will find what works best for you. I also add 0.3 ppm of Fe (EDTA chelated), 3x per week.
> Whatever is your dosing scheme, you will need NPK plus Fe and traces.
> Overstocking fish will not help, actually it will make things worse, because fish produce initially ammonia, which was found to be the only element able to induce an algae outbreak (green water). You would also need to add P and K anyways. Your suggestion would be close to Diana Walstad approach, but she defends a "natural" approach, no co2, no dosing, etc. Her book is very interesting, but I would say its age is showing.
> 
> 5. CO2 is almost always neglected. I have found out that people will usually measure the bubbles per second, but that is far from accurate. Dissolution also plays a big role, along with circulation. Try to measure your pH drop instead. Go for at least a 1 point pH drop (e.g. 7.4 to 6.4). This will give you roughly 30ppm of CO2. Pay attention to your dissolution strategy, is it working? Inline diffusers, ceramic plates, reactors, you have many options but, bottom line, how much of it really stays available to the plants? The pH drop will help there...
> 
> 6. Biomass is also important. As plants grow, and they do grow accelerating, you should keep it in check. The plants will compete for everything: light, CO2, nutrients, etc. Keeping it short will help, but you can let things go "wild". Just be aware of the change in requirements (e.g. more biomass equals more CO2)
> 
> 7. Filtering and circulation are not be neglected. I use a Eheim 2075 on 60l tank. The spray bar kills the excess flow. Just be sure you have an adequate system.
> 
> 
> That is mostly all I could think. Hope it is useful. I will post a picture of my tank, just to show I have some of the same plants. The moss wall at the back is still far from done.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




Ed, thank you for all the information you provided this is very informative. 

The temp now sits at 24 at night and 25 .5 during the day this is using a digital temp gauge. I can't ditch the heaters as house drops to about 5c at night as the Mrs turns the heating off. Lol. 

Please see my response your post above. 

1) I have 184Watts on 240 litres. 2x 54w T5 and 2x 38w T8. Lights are now on from 2pm until 11pm and no more algae so 8 hours a day. 

2) can you use dry and liquid ferts together? I have Seachem Flourish, Seachems Iron, Profito Easy Life, Profito Potasium and Dry ferts as previous post. I wouldn't really use the Profito and Flourish together and I only purchased the flourish because it was cheap. Not dosed any yet. More advise here would be helpful? 

3) I do water changes weekly. Another one this weekend even if stats are good I still think water changes are beneficial. It is sometimes hard to get the temp constant when doing water changes though and I am always scared of burning or freezing the fish/plants. I use the python thing but it's still tricky. Any advice on this too? 

4) Happy to overdose should it not cost a fortune. I think the dry ferts are the way to go. Do you use any liquid ferts? On top of the dry ferts? Also what's your thoughts on these http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/all-in-one-macros-micros-fertiliser-aquarium-plants-p299.html

5) My CO2 seems to drop 1 PH see pic prior to CO2 coming on and I will post pic after once lights come on. 










I have just lowered the CO2 back to 4bps as fish looked a little distressed at 6bps yesterday. Anyway I will see what the PH reading is along with both drop checkers later this afternoon and upload results. 

6) Biomass. Yes I agree. So you think if I keep plants trimmed I.e star grass etc biomass will not be as much. This stuff grows about 2 - 3 inches per week. 

7) I have a fluval 306 external filter on my Fluval Roma 240. I also have a surface skimmer on the other side of the tank that adds more circulation. I want to increase my filter though but reckon I'll wait a month or so yet as it will be another 200quid. 

See tank 8 weeks ago:










4 weeks ago. 










And now. 











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## [email protected]

Ok so somewhere in the tank but I can't find it. I have a dead Otto. I seen him hitting the ground yesterday so I put him into of the tree to recover. Now he has vanished and Nitrates have hit the roof. But strangely enough the HC are doing better than ever. Could it be a Nitrate deficiency? 










See HC 



















It's so green..... Problem is now I can't find this dead fish? What happens if I can't find it? 


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## ed.junior

Nothing man. You are doing fine. 1 dead fish means nothing in a tank that size. Dont worry about the nitrates. If anything do a 50% water change. I will answer more later, in the middle of something now.

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> Nothing man. You are doing fine. 1 dead fish means nothing in a tank that size. Dont worry about the nitrates. If anything do a 50% water change. I will answer more later, in the middle of something now.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




Ed, sound man. Ok so will do a 50% water change tomorrow. I think the nitrates are good for the plants look how green they have gone overnight. They were 0ppm before so this must of been it. I also removed some filter media that was removing the nitrates. 


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## sdwindansea

I've always thought nitrates in the 10 - 20 ppm range are ideal for most planted tanks. The caveat also depends on what livestock/plants you have.

Also, I just saw that Inkbird is offering a great deal on a temperature controller that we were discussing earlier in this thread - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...eater-temperature-controller.html#post9906130


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## [email protected]

I have a feeling it could be to do with the nitrates I.e with no dead fish nitrates are. 










So this means the plants are using up all the Nitrates/Nitrogen witch is good but also shows the Nitrates are running out and the plants are running out of food.

Add one dead fish that I can't find anywhere and this is what I get. 










Bare in mind this is only a day apart. Plants now doing great supper green but can't find the dead fish... 

Do I leave it in there or do I remove all the rocks to track it down... I know it's in there somewhere. 




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## ed.junior

Chill man, the nitrates are from something else. As a note, test your test kit against known solution. These cheap tests cannot be fully trusted. Come on, it is much easier to do the WCS and be sure of what you dose, instead of testing, testing. I was a bit concerned about posting it, but I think it will do you good: check this link man.

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...tive-index-of-dosing-or-no-need-for-test-kits

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## [email protected]

Thanks Ed. that's a huge read but I will get reading.... What do you mean test against a known solution? I don't have any at least I don't think so. 


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## sdwindansea

This is a great post about calibrating your testing - http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11-fertilizers-water-parameters/83545-calibrating-test-kits-non-chemists.html


----------



## Maryland Guppy

I can never find an "MIA" fish.
Amano shrimp strip it to the bone in an hour or two.
That complete skeleton slides out from under something eventually.
Not that I loose many fish but livebearer age is limited, many only 3 years.

One dead unfound fish can effect nitrates for sure.
Lost a huge snail in a 55 and had to do a 50% WC.

If you test water quite often one can reduce the test with API.
1.3ml and 2 drops each for NH3
1ml and 1 drop for NO2
1ml and 2 drops each for NO3
This will stretch test kits quite a bit.
Recommend a 5ml graduated cylinder for under $5 on evilbay.


----------



## ed.junior

First of all, you are getting good growth, congrats man 
That is your measure: the plants. Aim at healthy plant growth and you will be fine.
With this almost Iwagumi tank you have, you need to be careful, as you don't have a lot of biomass to balance things out.
But you are doing it, looking good. Also: chill man. Your tank is not this overly delicate thing. Do the water changes, keep co2 on check, step up your understanding about fertilizers (e.g. know exactly what you are dosing, be it DIY, or Seachem, Tropica, Dennerle, ADA, etc) and keep up with the husbandry (filters checked, biomass under control, etc).

Let me try to address some of your points:



[email protected] said:


> The temp now sits at 24 at night and 25 .5 during the day this is using a digital temp gauge. I can't ditch the heaters as house drops to about 5c at night as the Mrs turns the heating off. Lol.


Lol, that is tough. Only thing I can say is maybe to consider inline heaters. Besides that, nothing to do I guess 





[email protected] said:


> 1) I have 184Watts on 240 litres. 2x 54w T5 and 2x 38w T8. Lights are now on from 2pm until 11pm and no more algae so 8 hours a day.


I am doing a wild guess here, but considering you have decent bulbs, you should have at least 50 PAR. Watts are not a good measure, as other parameters also play a big role (e.g. tank height, bulb color, etc. I have some red bulbs that give beatiful reds but only 550 lm, and others that give 1750 lm, and all are 24w T5. Big difference here).Try using the calculator I mentioned. But since you are getting good growth, there should be no issue there.



[email protected] said:


> 2) can you use dry and liquid ferts together? I have Seachem Flourish, Seachems Iron, Profito Easy Life, Profito Potasium and Dry ferts as previous post. I wouldn't really use the Profito and Flourish together and I only purchased the flourish because it was cheap. Not dosed any yet. More advise here would be helpful?


You can mix all the stuff you want, just be aware of the concentrations and overall chemistry. Your global targets, from all sources together, for the whole week could be something like:

20ppm NO3
20ppm K
8ppm PO4
0.25 Fe EDTA/DTPA plus traces: Zn, Cu, Mn, B, Mo, etc. 
 +1 or 2 degress GH from a GH booster to cover Ca and Mg. Seachem Equilibrium is an example

You should split this around the week days, according to your habits (e.g. dose 3x per week 7ppm of NO3) Calculate how each dose of your products are really adding. I CAN'T OVER STRESS THIS: know what you are dosing! In my experience it is easier to control things from the dosing side rather measuring it with cheap kits.

So, calculate the percentages and see how many milligrams of each compound are being dosed. Ppm means parts per million, which in our case, since 1l of water weighs 1kg, means mg/l.

Example: to add 10ppm of K to your 240l tank I would need 10mg X 240, meaning 2400mg, or 2.4g of K, in a single dose. You could get the dry ferts and dilute them, or just "season" your water 

Of course you would be dosing a salt and not pure potassium (e.g. K2SO4) but you got the idea...


Let me show one example from Aqua Rebell:










You see, 10 mls add this and that to a 100l tank. Pure math in this aspect.

Again, rotalabutterfly.com has a very nice nutrient calculator, just saying...

Also, get the water report from your city/neighbourhood, and check what you have in your water. Maybe you have enough Ca, etc. This way you have a better foundation about what to dose and what not, maybe some info about seasonal variations in pH, GH, KH...




[email protected] said:


> 3) I do water changes weekly. Another one this weekend even if stats are good I still think water changes are beneficial. It is sometimes hard to get the temp constant when doing water changes though and I am always scared of burning or freezing the fish/plants. I use the python thing but it's still tricky. Any advice on this too?


Don't worry too much about the temperature. These shifts also happen in nature. I am from Brazil and, trust me, if every time it rained and the lakes got colder the fish died, we would have no fishes. Temperature swings in lakes during the day are actually pretty common worldwide.

Try to match the temperature, aiming a bit lower. Just dont add it with a crazy difference, like 15 degrees less. Thazs just evil. More than 26 is not good, 28 being a limit for me. There is just no need to be precise. Between 22 and 28 it is all fair game. So chill man 

One note: only dose ferts or other stuff when the tank is full again, or the concentration will be way higher.

About the heaters I have nothing to say, as I do not use them. If your tank has a temperature swing in the night, but it does not go below 22 and during the day it is bellow 25, I would say you don't need heaters.




[email protected] said:


> 4) Happy to overdose should it not cost a fortune. I think the dry ferts are the way to go. Do you use any liquid ferts? On top of the dry ferts? Also what's your thoughts on these http://www.co2supermarket.co.uk/all-in-one-macros-micros-fertiliser-aquarium-plants-p299.html


It is irrelevant if it is dry or liquid ferts. The point is what you are adding. There is not a lot to add. Here is the list.

• Nitrogen, usually from KNO3
• Potassium, usuallly from KNO3, KH2PO4 or K2SO4
• Phosphor, usually from KH2PO4
• Iron, from Fe-EDTA, DTPA, Gluconate, it really depends on your pH and KH. EDTA is the most common chelate.
• Calcium and Magnesium, from any GH booster
• Trace elements, usually from a trace mix that also contains Fe e.g. TNC Trace.
• Some people also dose Glutaraldehyde (aka liquid carbon, like Seachem Excel) to add an extra source of carbon, not CO2, but some photosynthetic intermediate.

This is basically it. Profito, Seachem, dry salts, it doesn't matter. Start with rich doses and work your way from there. But you HAVE to know what you are dosing. No shortcuts here.

I do not like all in one solutions. Either no iron or no phosphates, you can't have both or they will precipitate. Go with TNC, you will not regret it, it really is great and cheap. I made a 500ml micro solution plus K, that will last for 2 months and costed me less than 50 cents, just so you have an idea. And it is way richer than most products.



[email protected] said:


> 5) My CO2 seems to drop 1 PH see pic prior to CO2 coming on and I will post pic after once lights come on.
> 
> I have just lowered the CO2 back to 4bps as fish looked a little distressed at 6bps yesterday. Anyway I will see what the PH reading is along with both drop checkers later this afternoon and upload results.


1 point pH drop is okay if you are having good results. Check your plants: they are your indicator. If something is off they will tell you.

Also, remember to trim the HC or it will detach from the substrate. Keep it less than an inch, around 1.5cm.



[email protected] said:


> 6) Biomass. Yes I agree. So you think if I keep plants trimmed I.e star grass etc biomass will not be as much. This stuff grows about 2 - 3 inches per week.


I am not telling you to keep it short, just saying you need to factor it in. More biomass equals more CO2 consumption. You have only the Heteranthera Zoosterifolia as a stem plant, and that is a very easy plant. If you start playing with the Lythraceae family (Rotalas, Ammanias) you will see that they are much more demanding, and the biomass of neighbouring plants makes a big difference.

By the way, I think you could consider adding two plants: Staurogyne Repens and Pogostemon Helferii, they are easy plants that look very good between rocks. Check it out and see for yourself. I live in Hamburg, if you lived closer I could send them to you 



[email protected] said:


> 7) I have a fluval 306 external filter on my Fluval Roma 240. I also have a surface skimmer on the other side of the tank that adds more circulation. I want to increase my filter though but reckon I'll wait a month or so yet as it will be another 200quid.


I like big filters. I use an Eheim 2075 with 1250 l/h on a 60l aquarium. Real water throughput is around 450l/h, because the Sera CO2 reactor really lowers it.

I would get a second 306 and that should be ok. Cleaning 2 filters suck you could get creative with the filtering media so that you have less work.

Get a second hand filter, man. It is way cheaper. I found a 406 for 50€ the other day. I want to spend time gardening, not with the technical hardware.


Phew, that took a while, hope it helps.
And remember, if the plants are growing, fish are fine, forget the tests. You are growing plants, not keeping levels.

Plants can grow on a very wide range of nutrients. You will need to make a big effort to mess it up by overdosing. I know we have people screaming toxicity from time to time, but I have to see that for myself first. If it really was like that, I shouldn't be getting good results.

Again, healthy growth is the parameter, not numbers 

Enjoy the weekend!

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk


----------



## ed.junior

Maryland Guppy said:


> One dead unfound fish can effect nitrates for sure.
> Lost a huge snail in a 55 and had to do a 50% WC.


Just making sure we are not comparing apples and oranges here. 

If a big astronotus ocellatus dies in 240l tank it is a big issue, mostly ammonia and organic matter first. But an otto is not. Just the amount of organic matter added by the fishes and plants over weeks, in a normally stocked tank, surpasses the otto mass itself.

I recently had 2 big neritine snails die on the 60l tank and had no issues. I know that with amount of lights that I have, I would instantly get green water with an ammonia spike.

But again, I do regular 70% water changes regardless of anything. So a good routine with 5X to 10X water cycling through the filter can catch most of the stuff, even if I am not aware. 

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----------



## Maryland Guppy

Nerite about as round as a quarter took NO3 from orange to bright red on my test kit in a 24 hour period.
Never saw a change in ammonia though.
Death was visible through an NO3 increase only.
55 is also a low tech almost no fert tank.


----------



## ed.junior

Well, each tank is its own system, what can I say? I do understand your concerns, but I guess my tank is so heavily planted that a big snail made no difference.

Even so, a snail in 55l is not the same as an otto in 240l. If your tank is a 55g instead of 55l, than I am sorry to say you have another issue causing the nitrates to go high. 100ppm of nitrates is most likely toxic enough to kill fish. If a tank that big was so sensitive to fish dying (and spiking nitrate levels) it would have a domino effect on the whole tank. Anyways, that is my experience. I accidentally gassed my fishes to death a couple times with CO2, never cared about the nitrates: the plants, filter and wc will take care of it. If anything, free ferts.

I am not a fan of leaving stuff in the tank, also. But you got the idea

When I still cared to measure, my tank could use 3ppm NO3 per day, so dosing is a must. 

This is the tank. Top pic was 11 days ago, bottom was yesterday.


----------



## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> First of all, you are getting good growth, congrats man
> That is your measure: the plants. Aim at healthy plant growth and you will be fine.
> With this almost Iwagumi tank you have, you need to be careful, as you don't have a lot of biomass to balance things out.
> But you are doing it, looking good. Also: chill man. Your tank is not this overly delicate thing. Do the water changes, keep co2 on check, step up your understanding about fertilizers (e.g. know exactly what you are dosing, be it DIY, or Seachem, Tropica, Dennerle, ADA, etc) and keep up with the husbandry (filters checked, biomass under control, etc).
> 
> Let me try to address some of your points:
> 
> 
> 
> Lol, that is tough. Only thing I can say is maybe to consider inline heaters. Besides that, nothing to do I guess
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am doing a wild guess here, but considering you have decent bulbs, you should have at least 50 PAR. Watts are not a good measure, as other parameters also play a big role (e.g. tank height, bulb color, etc. I have some red bulbs that give beatiful reds but only 550 lm, and others that give 1750 lm, and all are 24w T5. Big difference here).Try using the calculator I mentioned. But since you are getting good growth, there should be no issue there.
> 
> 
> 
> You can mix all the stuff you want, just be aware of the concentrations and overall chemistry. Your global targets, from all sources together, for the whole week could be something like:
> 
> 20ppm NO3
> 20ppm K
> 8ppm PO4
> 0.25 Fe EDTA/DTPA plus traces: Zn, Cu, Mn, B, Mo, etc.
> +1 or 2 degress GH from a GH booster to cover Ca and Mg. Seachem Equilibrium is an example
> 
> You should split this around the week days, according to your habits (e.g. dose 3x per week 7ppm of NO3) Calculate how each dose of your products are really adding. I CAN'T OVER STRESS THIS: know what you are dosing! In my experience it is easier to control things from the dosing side rather measuring it with cheap kits.
> 
> So, calculate the percentages and see how many milligrams of each compound are being dosed. Ppm means parts per million, which in our case, since 1l of water weighs 1kg, means mg/l.
> 
> Example: to add 10ppm of K to your 240l tank I would need 10mg X 240, meaning 2400mg, or 2.4g of K, in a single dose. You could get the dry ferts and dilute them, or just "season" your water
> 
> Of course you would be dosing a salt and not pure potassium (e.g. K2SO4) but you got the idea...
> 
> 
> Let me show one example from Aqua Rebell:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You see, 10 mls add this and that to a 100l tank. Pure math in this aspect.
> 
> Again, rotalabutterfly.com has a very nice nutrient calculator, just saying...
> 
> Also, get the water report from your city/neighbourhood, and check what you have in your water. Maybe you have enough Ca, etc. This way you have a better foundation about what to dose and what not, maybe some info about seasonal variations in pH, GH, KH...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't worry too much about the temperature. These shifts also happen in nature. I am from Brazil and, trust me, if every time it rained and the lakes got colder the fish died, we would have no fishes. Temperature swings in lakes during the day are actually pretty common worldwide.
> 
> Try to match the temperature, aiming a bit lower. Just dont add it with a crazy difference, like 15 degrees less. Thazs just evil. More than 26 is not good, 28 being a limit for me. There is just no need to be precise. Between 22 and 28 it is all fair game. So chill man
> 
> One note: only dose ferts or other stuff when the tank is full again, or the concentration will be way higher.
> 
> About the heaters I have nothing to say, as I do not use them. If your tank has a temperature swing in the night, but it does not go below 22 and during the day it is bellow 25, I would say you don't need heaters.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It is irrelevant if it is dry or liquid ferts. The point is what you are adding. There is not a lot to add. Here is the list.
> 
> • Nitrogen, usually from KNO3
> • Potassium, usuallly from KNO3, KH2PO4 or K2SO4
> • Phosphor, usually from KH2PO4
> • Iron, from Fe-EDTA, DTPA, Gluconate, it really depends on your pH and KH. EDTA is the most common chelate.
> • Calcium and Magnesium, from any GH booster
> • Trace elements, usually from a trace mix that also contains Fe e.g. TNC Trace.
> • Some people also dose Glutaraldehyde (aka liquid carbon, like Seachem Excel) to add an extra source of carbon, not CO2, but some photosynthetic intermediate.
> 
> This is basically it. Profito, Seachem, dry salts, it doesn't matter. Start with rich doses and work your way from there. But you HAVE to know what you are dosing. No shortcuts here.
> 
> I do not like all in one solutions. Either no iron or no phosphates, you can't have both or they will precipitate. Go with TNC, you will not regret it, it really is great and cheap. I made a 500ml micro solution plus K, that will last for 2 months and costed me less than 50 cents, just so you have an idea. And it is way richer than most products.
> 
> 
> 
> 1 point pH drop is okay if you are having good results. Check your plants: they are your indicator. If something is off they will tell you.
> 
> Also, remember to trim the HC or it will detach from the substrate. Keep it less than an inch, around 1.5cm.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not telling you to keep it short, just saying you need to factor it in. More biomass equals more CO2 consumption. You have only the Heteranthera Zoosterifolia as a stem plant, and that is a very easy plant. If you start playing with the Lythraceae family (Rotalas, Ammanias) you will see that they are much more demanding, and the biomass of neighbouring plants makes a big difference.
> 
> By the way, I think you could consider adding two plants: Staurogyne Repens and Pogostemon Helferii, they are easy plants that look very good between rocks. Check it out and see for yourself. I live in Hamburg, if you lived closer I could send them to you
> 
> 
> 
> I like big filters. I use an Eheim 2075 with 1250 l/h on a 60l aquarium. Real water throughput is around 450l/h, because the Sera CO2 reactor really lowers it.
> 
> I would get a second 306 and that should be ok. Cleaning 2 filters suck you could get creative with the filtering media so that you have less work.
> 
> Get a second hand filter, man. It is way cheaper. I found a 406 for 50€ the other day. I want to spend time gardening, not with the technical hardware.
> 
> 
> Phew, that took a while, hope it helps.
> And remember, if the plants are growing, fish are fine, forget the tests. You are growing plants, not keeping levels.
> 
> Plants can grow on a very wide range of nutrients. You will need to make a big effort to mess it up by overdosing. I know we have people screaming toxicity from time to time, but I have to see that for myself first. If it really was like that, I shouldn't be getting good results.
> 
> Again, healthy growth is the parameter, not numbers
> 
> Enjoy the weekend!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




Dude seriously, you are some intelligent mathematician... 

That's impressive I have to say actually blew me away...

So I am not as bright as you going by all that I work in business development for and IT company not to be named in the defence etc. I alway was an engineer...

Anyway I will run through your advice I think the biggest thing as you say if you can see growth then fantastic I think maybe as per your comments the HC is dying as I haven't trimmed and is over 1.5 CM. So could be this? But since the increase in Nitrates it looks better. 

Glad to know it's not over fertilisation. I will take a look at all the forums. 

Honestly I am overwhelmed with the advice and it deserved a response it's almost 2am here but it's Friday. 

I will run through tomorrow over the weekend and provide a decent response. 

Thanks Again this is much appreciated. 




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----------



## ed.junior

ABOUT HC:
It is not dying because of the thickness, it's something else, really. It doesn't die like that.

I would recheck the easyCarbo to sre if you really dosing the right amount. I know the Heteranthera is sensitive to it.

I had an issue with freshwater hydra in my tank and treated it with EasyCarbo (3ml per 10l of actual tank water, so 15ml in a 60l tank). The Heteranthera took a hit, andit looked just like yours. In my switch to EI, I also got Staghorn algae in some areas of the HC carpet, and spot treated it with EasyCarbo. It went very similar to yours, but only in the area I spot treated, a somewhat circular area of whitish/transparent leaves.

Both will recover fast, in a week or so. Trim your HZ down or remove the bottom and replant the tops (right before the water change so that you have no issues with the uprooting).

HC is NOT dying because of thickness.
Mine grew as thick as 4cm before I realised it was way past trimming time. And yeah, it starts lifting up, nasty stuff










COMPLIMENTS WISE:
I thank you for all the compliments, really, those are very kind words.
This knowledge however is available because the work of others. I gathered it from people over time, specially over the last 3 months since I joined BarrReport.com.

All the calculations and stuff come from a long time ago, PMDD era I guess, thekrib.com, around the 90s? I only got in touch with it through Tom's work. Believe me, I work as a Project manager for an IT company, and I was completely ignorant of this stuff until November '16. 

Tom's work is, simply put, very scientific and results driven. I have learned a lot over the last months. That is why I pointed you to it, that is where it all started. Tom is well known for the fertilisation techniques, specially Estimative Index, but if you stay around you will that his focus is really on growing plants, and ferts are just a part.

So, if you would like to check how I learned stuff, check this link:

http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/journals/243230-switching-to-ei

You will see that I am still a noob, but I learned a thing or two along the way


----------



## Nordic

Could it be that the substrate under it is compacting?
I'd try and slowly stir trough it, push the HC back down, weighing it down with a few small stones, then pour a tiny bit of sand on top to weigh it down and give some fresh grit to the bottom.


----------



## ed.junior

Nordic said:


> Could it be that the substrate under it is compacting?
> I'd try and slowly stir trough it, push the HC back down, weighing it down with a few small stones, then pour a tiny bit of sand on top to weigh it down and give some fresh grit to the bottom.


Hi there 
This picture is not from our tanks, it's just an example. Currently Ben has no issues with it lifting up. I just wanted to let him know it happens before it did 

Nonetheless, thanks for the cool idea, I guess that if it happened to me, I would go a similar route, maybe use my substrate instead of sand, etc...


----------



## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> ABOUT HC:
> It is not dying because of the thickness, it's something else, really. It doesn't die like that.
> 
> I would recheck the easyCarbo to sre if you really dosing the right amount. I know the Heteranthera is sensitive to it.
> 
> I had an issue with freshwater hydra in my tank and treated it with EasyCarbo (3ml per 10l of actual tank water, so 15ml in a 60l tank). The Heteranthera took a hit, andit looked just like yours. In my switch to EI, I also got Staghorn algae in some areas of the HC carpet, and spot treated it with EasyCarbo. It went very similar to yours, but only in the area I spot treated, a somewhat circular area of whitish/transparent leaves.
> 
> Both will recover fast, in a week or so. Trim your HZ down or remove the bottom and replant the tops (right before the water change so that you have no issues with the uprooting).
> 
> HC is NOT dying because of thickness.
> Mine grew as thick as 4cm before I realised it was way past trimming time. And yeah, it starts lifting up, nasty stuff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COMPLIMENTS WISE:
> I thank you for all the compliments, really, those are very kind words.
> This knowledge however is available because the work of others. I gathered it from people over time, specially over the last 3 months since I joined BarrReport.com.
> 
> All the calculations and stuff come from a long time ago, PMDD era I guess, thekrib.com, around the 90s? I only got in touch with it through Tom's work. Believe me, I work as a Project manager for an IT company, and I was completely ignorant of this stuff until November '16.
> 
> Tom's work is, simply put, very scientific and results driven. I have learned a lot over the last months. That is way I pointed you to it, that is where it all started. Tom is well known for the fertilisation techniques, specially Estimative Index, but if you stay around you will that his focus is really on growing plants, and ferts are just a part.
> 
> So, if you would like to check how I learned stuff, check this link:
> 
> http://www.barrreport.com/forum/barr-report/journals/243230-switching-to-ei
> 
> You will see that I am still a noob, but I learned a thing or two along the way




Thanks Ed currently reading through your Journal. 


It's not easyCarbo I am using its EasyLife Profito it could well be from adding this via spot treatment. I am just adding this to the tank now. I.e no syringe. 

I will let you know my thoughts once I read you mr journal. 


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## [email protected]

Also just a note... My KH range is 1... This is water hardness right. It wasn't a few weeks ago it was 4. Not sure what this means yet. 


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## ed.junior

We add ferts to either the water column or the substrate, "spot dosing" is not the way to go, except for treatments. That's why I said "dose after the water change", exactly to avoid crazy high concentrations of chemicals.

KH is carbonate hardness (from carbonates and bicarbonates). GH is general hardness, a measure of the concentration of metal ions (i.e. Ca and Mg).

Your KH is too low for comfort. Use something to up it to 3 degrees. Since you are still getting used to the dry ferts, we could skio baking soda and use a standard product like tetra pH/KH plus.

But you really need to check your water report. This is kind of essential. It works kind of the other way around, knowing and dosing instead of testing with the low end test kits. Your water report will be made with much more advanced standards. Here in Hamburg they have it per neighbourhood, it really helps.

We need to know and stop guessing. Some stuff might be correlated but it does not mean causality. For example, you up your CO2 levels and your plants do worse. You might have encountered a fert deficiency but you blame the CO2. Or you dose ferts and things go worse because you became CO2 limited, but you blame the ferts.
That's why I said let light be the driver of growth speed. That's how it works. Light is easy to adjust, measure, control. Ferts too. CO2 is tricky.

You gotta know your water 
This will make you have more control over your tank. You know the water, you know the ferts, you know the light, this will build a foundation. Go for it.

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## ed.junior

On CO2:
First of all, the CO2 content as measured on the pH/KH table considers you have 100% pure water. You might have something on your water that throws that calculation off, some acids through your pH down, very high levels of phosphates might interfere with KH as well, very low KH (<1) make it unreliable to measure...

So, how to measure it? One simple way would be checking it on degassed water (CO2 excess is removed, or "degassed"). Let water from your tank sit in a container for a couple days (or air it with an airpump/airstone for 30 minutes) and measure the pH/KH. Because of exchange with the CO2 present in atmospheric air (Henry's Law if you would like to google), the CO2 content will be around 3ppm, in usual situations (it would be a bit lower if you were to be in a high mountain, for example). If you inject CO2, you will get a 10x increase in CO2 for every 1 point drop in pH (e.g. 3pmm at 7, 30ppm at 6 and 300ppm at 5 pH).

Bubbles per second are just a visual cue to you: is the co2 flowing normally, is the cylinder empty, etc.

You could get a cheap pH pen on amazon. That could make things easier. Drop checkers are just not precise. The right range cannot be easily read, too many shades of green. I used to leave it there to just see if it was yellow, but co2 micro-bubbles could also go in and give a fake positive.

Bottom line is the growth of the plants. You gotta read them. One day without CO2 and I know. In the beginning I wasnt used to having so much pearling. Now I use as a reference.

This a video from the first week of January. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0DhHej-Dlw

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## [email protected]

Ed the tank looks fantastic. 

So I finally read your journal very impressed the work that has been put in. Also great to see so many people collaborating. 

Just done my 65% water change... Also found the dead Otto whist doing so. 

These were the results prior to the water change. 










Amonnia was increasing also so likely due to the dead fish. 

Anyway so I did the KH test wrong it was actually 10 drops... Not 1. 

PH drops 1 before and after CO2 once been on for 3 hours or so. I think this is ok. 

I am no longer going to dose any ferts directly. I think I wasn't dosing enough hence the HC deaths. I also may have burnt the HC due to dosing direct/injecting into substrate. Anyway lessons learned here also. 

I am now dosing 60ml of CO2Aquariums dry ferts and Liquid Potassium and liquid iron daily but rotating Iron and potassium every second day. I love the idea of the EI dosing the fact that you overdose etc and reset weekly. 

I am also thinking of another pump for more circulations although not sure if I do need this I suppose it will be a test. ED should I point it directly on the HC? The HC where there is no circulation is fine I.e behind a rock. Ok it grows slow here very slow but it's not dying. Everywhere else it has seem to explode. I have the same skimmer as you as per your journal and I fluval 306. 

I have also taking onboard your advice and extended the lighting and Co2 by an extra hour so this is now running 10 hours a day. I reduced it as I thought it was killing the HC... It's not fully recovered as of yet but almost there and for all the bits that are dying I am getting double the growth as to what's dying so should I be concerned. All the bits that have died it typically tends to be on a few leaves but mainly at the stem then little stems of HC float to the top as the stem has died half way. The rest of it what's floated to the top is fine so I have just replanted elsewhere and its growing back so really don't know what is happening. 

This is what I get floating to the top. 










You can see the black bit where the stem has died maybe even rotted away but when I replant it seems to be holding itself not completely regrow img yet as its too soon to say but looks ok. Anyone seen this before? Could this be a result of me direct dosing? I.e toxic on the stems. Although I have always done this so not sure why it is happening now. 

It seems to look a lot better now that's for sure so still recovering. 



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## [email protected]

This is the HC pearling https://youtu.be/AJPvBxu1-E8


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## [email protected]

Does anyone know of other plants that a slower grown than Star Grass that is similar. I like star gras but it grows way too quick getting like 2 - 3 inches a week.... 


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## ed.junior

[email protected] said:


> Anyway so I did the KH test wrong it was actually 10 drops... Not 1.


Big difference. You have a high KH. But as long as plants grow, we don't care.






[email protected] said:


> PH drops 1 before and after CO2 once been on for 3 hours or so. I think this is ok.


I am lost here. You have a 1 point pH drop after CO2 has been on for 3 hours? If that is the case that should be fine. It could be way faster (an hour or so), but that's not important as you have good growth.




[email protected] said:


> I am no longer going to dose any ferts directly. I think I wasn't dosing enough hence the HC deaths. I also may have burnt the HC due to dosing direct/injecting into substrate. Anyway lessons learned here also.
> 
> Could this be a result of me direct dosing? I.e toxic on the stems?


I think it is a VERY safe assumption to be made. Spot dosing ferts will burn the plants, as the concentrations are crazy high. It will simply melt/burn the plants.





[email protected] said:


> I am now dosing 60ml of CO2Aquariums dry ferts and Liquid Potassium and liquid iron daily but rotating Iron and potassium every second day. I love the idea of the EI dosing the fact that you overdose etc and reset weekly.


Yeah, EI works great for me. It is a lot of freedom.

You are dosing many things, no problem there, but what are you adding to the water, really?

For example, try to fill the blanks:

Monday: 
___ppm of NO3
___ppm of PO4
___ppm of K

Tuesday
___ppm of Fe-EDTA
___ppm of ....

And so it goes. KNOW what you are adding. Exactly. Not the exact number up to 8 decimal places (e.g. 0.35667735 ppm of Fe), but instead what (e.g. N, NO3, PO4, K), roughly how much (e.g. 2 ppm of PO4) and when (Monday, every other day, etc). Create a log for yourself, then you will KNOW what you did, how it worked by then, etc.

By the way, I don't buy that sweet talk description from the CO2Aquarium about an all in one mix. Most people add Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate to the micro mix to keep it acidic and avoid mold or the chelates from breaking (some also use vinegar). If that alone would avoid the Phosphates from reacting with Iron, everybody would have done that ages ago. Why are they the only ones able to do it, with the same products people always used? Sorry but no, I will stick with 2 solutions, from thenutrientcompany.com



[email protected] said:


> I am also thinking of another pump for more circulations although not sure if I do need this I suppose it will be a test. ED should I point it directly on the HC?


I don't think you NEED it. You know why? Because you have good growth.

I noticed no difference in my tank when aiming the flow directly at the HC. I prefer the flow at surface, to create some agitation (without breaking the surface) to increase the gas exchange. It is easier to increase CO2 if O2 is high. The fish will thank you.

If you think there is a problem in one spot, I would wait. Tanks always have sweet spots. That is normal. If the HC grows slower in one place, leave it.

Actually, after you decide on the ferts, I would suggest keeping a rigid routine for a couple weeks. Keep the filter clean and maybe some trimming, but no crazy reductions in the biomass. After 2-3 weeks you change *1* thing. Maybe less light? Maybe more CO2. Maybe less ferts. But 1 thing at a time. And then wait 2-3 weeks. Trust me, it is worth it.



[email protected] said:


> I have also taking onboard your advice and extended the lighting and Co2 by an extra hour so this is now running 10 hours a day.


10 hours with a 3 hour break in between works for me. A friend here only does 6 hours. Lots of people do 8 hours. I know some non CO2 folks that have only 4 hours of light.

Light is the driver. More light equals faster speed. Any imbalances will show up faster, some which might never have popped up with less light.

Stick with something for 2-3 weeks. Whatever you choose will be your starting point. Go from there. Your tank is alive, work with it.


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## ed.junior

[email protected] said:


> This is the HC pearling https://youtu.be/AJPvBxu1-E8
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Looking great man. You are on the right path to have a great tank. Pearling is always a good sign. Do you always get it to pearl like that everyday? That would be great.

Your ammonia is still a tiny bit high but it is probably from the ADA AS. Keep the weekly water changes and you should have no reason to worry. If it builds up you will have algae, so don't skipping it. 

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## ed.junior

[email protected] said:


> Does anyone know of other plants that a slower grown than Star Grass that is similar. I like star gras but it grows way too quick getting like 2 - 3 inches a week....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Man, there are several. 
All the Ammanias are similar(pedicillata, gracilis, crassicaulis) and you get a different splash of color. The limnophila hippuridoides is also nice with a bit of orange/red hues.

Maybe hygrophila polysperma? Ludwigia arcuata? Rotala macandra narrow?

I am a sucker for colors, that's why most of my suggestions are not really green. 

Check Tropica's website for a quick idea. You can check their catalogue and see many tank layouts using the same plants. I did that a lot, because I wanted to really check the immerse forms of the plants.

The other way around would be lowering the light intensity. For instance, keep only the two 54w. It would make everything grow slower, less pressure, more laid back approach, cheaper electricity bill, etc... it is up to you 

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## Nlewis

[email protected] said:


> Does anyone know of other plants that a slower grown than Star Grass that is similar. I like star gras but it grows way too quick getting like 2 - 3 inches a week....
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you like it, keep it. Just get those scissors wet and mow it down.


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## Maryland Guppy

ed.junior said:


> All the Ammanias are similar(pedicillata, gracilis, crassicaulis) and you get a different splash of color. The limnophila hippuridoides is also nice with a bit of orange/red hues.
> 
> Maybe hygrophila polysperma? Ludwigia arcuata? Rotala macandra narrow?


The Ammannia would work, different colors and slower growing, also much more difficult. This is all reclassified nesaea species.

Hygro polysperma will grow even faster than the stargrass but it is much nicer looking and the look is worth it too!

Limnophila hippuroides again can be a fast grower but worth the look.

Rotala macrandra narrow leaf is also an awesome plant.

Lets be real here. You will be in the tank elbows deep with decent lighting.
Either cut the light back some or let it grow.
I tend to phase out for a month at a time and am subject to an entire weekend of trimming many tanks.
Biggest issue for me is shading other plants due to extreme growth.


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## [email protected]

Latest results look like Ammonia still up maybe due to the fish/overfeed I will see again tomorrow.









It's now also taking 5 drops for KH so not to bad now. Plants doing much better. 


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## ed.junior

[email protected] said:


> Latest results look like Ammonia still up maybe due to the fish/overfeed I will see again tomorrow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's now also taking 5 drops for KH so not to bad now. Plants doing much better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it's the ADA AS, not overfeeding. But don't worry, you are fine. I would keep a routine for a couple weeks and see.

Your KH shift is a bit weird. From 10 to 5 is a lot.

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> I think it's the ADA AS, not overfeeding. But don't worry, you are fine. I would keep a routine for a couple weeks and see.
> 
> Your KH shift is a bit weird. From 10 to 5 is a lot.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




Yeah could it be I tested at the end of a week first time. I.e day 6 prior to water change. And this test is day 1 of the after the water change. All dead HC seems to have gone. No longer doing direct dosing. Friends over at the moment but will work out all what is being dosed now that I understand. 

Added a little prime to reduce the ammonia... It could also be my filter media as could do with changing soon. 


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## [email protected]

This was the Ada soil and sand in the tank







wasn't cheap think about £160 just in substrate. 


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## [email protected]

Ok so it looks as though the micronutrients are as follows:


Iron Fe 8.2% (EDTA Chelated)
Manganese Mn 1.82% (EDTA Chelated)
Zinc Zn 1.16% (EDTA Chelated)
Boron (B) 1.05%
Copper (Cu) 0.23% (EDTA Chelated)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.15%

And the Macro Nutrients are:

Each 5ml dose adds: 5ml to every 40litres of water. 
1.5 ppm Nitrate 
0.4 ppm Phosphate 
1.6 ppm Potassium 
0.2 ppm Magnesium 

Now my tank is 240litres but I am also doubling the dose so I am currently dosing. 

18 ppm Nitrate 
4.8 ppm Phosphate 
19.2 ppm Potassium 
2.4 ppm Magnesium 

Then I also dose Seachem Iron every second day. 



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## [email protected]

Can you believe this thread has 6K+ views.... Crazy. Anyway thanks for everyone support will start a journal soon. 



https://youtu.be/AJPvBxu1-E8


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## longgonedaddy

[email protected] said:


> Can you believe this thread has 6K+ views.... Crazy. Anyway thanks for everyone support will start a journal soon.
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/AJPvBxu1-E8
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


:surprise:

I think half were yours. >


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## Dman911

Wow Ben your tank is coming along beautifully. Great job

Dan


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## [email protected]

Ok so I know the problem. 

Ed was correct... So yes the HC was doing well for so long using Profito EasyLife. However it soon turned out that there was problems. I.e no pearling dead HC etc. Now it wasn't easy to notice as I was dosing direct I thought it was toxicity but it wasn't it was deficiency pure and simple. I will now help any others in this boat I know the symptoms I know the problems pure and simple this is what it was my plants now are doing great HC even growing in the dark under rocks/trees etc. Which in my eyes is impossible it's not loads of pearling I can honestly say it's all to do with the ferts 


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## [email protected]

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## ed.junior

I'm happy for you Ben.
You learned a lot, and the results show your effort.

Remember to trim the HC 

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> I'm happy for you Ben.
> You learned a lot, and the results show your effort.
> 
> Remember to trim the HC
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




Thanks Ed. problem is. When do I trim the HC I don't want to.... It looks sooooo good. Do you know what happens if I don't trim? It's about 1 - 2inches at the moment in height. I suspect I will need to trim over the next couple of weeks. I also have to trim the Christmas Moss on the tree this will be tricky.... 

It looked like this before 










Then it died during DSM but it's come back to life and needs to be more defined. 










It's overgrown now...












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## [email protected]

This is the HC height




























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## BettaBettas

[email protected] said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Pearling overload! :bounce:


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## ed.junior

Trim one part so you get the feeling.
You will get the confidence that it keeps on growing. You will need a bit of courage, but trust me, you have to.

You will be fine 

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> Trim one part so you get the feeling.
> You will get the confidence that it keeps on growing. You will need a bit of courage, but trust me, you have to.
> 
> You will be fine
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




I have measured it... It's just under an inch about 3cm... Do I need to trim it? 


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## ed.junior

Do it. You will be fine. Try to trim it making it plain. Try in a small area if you are concerned. 

Go slow with the scissors. Take the top centimeter. That is enough.

It will be good for *you* too, for your learning. 

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## [email protected]

Thanks Ed. 

Next weekend I will cut the HC. I will give it one more week. 

Here is the HC pearling on a normal day/evening... 

https://youtu.be/_Wk9h0Z32fc 


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## gnovince

I had a full carpet side to side of HC and waited too long to trim and it uprooted like one giant sheet! Was horrible and then tried to replant unsuccessfully! THEN ...my wonderful cory's would find their way underneath and make it their home! Lol I unfortunately just had to get rid of! So I would also say trimming is very important.


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## [email protected]

Ok.... So I am absolutely baffled... I did a water change, trimmed all the plants, added prime and look what happened overnight... Plants melted even the HC... What is causing this is it the Prime? Is it the new filter media??? 





























Any suggestions welcome??? Could it be the lack of CO2 during water changes? 

These are my readings the day after the water change so if can't be a lack of Nitrates? 











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## GrampsGrunge

Actually depending on how alkaline your base water is, Ammonia as Ammonium is preferentially preferred by plants, especially root feeders, rooted in high CEC soils. It takes extra energy to utilize Nitrates at the hair root level, especially if you have high CEC soils doing their ion exchange magic.


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## [email protected]

Ok this still doesn't make any sense. From top... Someone please help










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## ed.junior

I guess it is something you added with the water change. A chemical product of sorts, maybe in a dirty bucket?

What is prime? A water conditioner?

What about your new water?
Did your ever test it?
Excess chlorine? That would would also kill the fish.

Bottom line: not a standard water parameter. It is not ferts (unless you heavily overdosed), not ph/kh/GH as it would not have such a fast reaction.

Glutaraldehyde would also cause it, in high amounts. H2O2 also.

It is something "external". After all my walk with you, I am sure. 

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## ed.junior

Test your tap water, if normal, change 75% now. If it looks better after 2h, repeat.

Be 100% sure of cleaning buckets, hoses, etc.


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## Maryland Guppy

How are you adding the Prime?

Something like two drops per gallon I believe.

Never had Prime damage any of my plants before.


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## [email protected]

Could it have been the Purigen? It was in bleach to re-activate and a shed loads of Seachem prime. I added about two capfuls to 240litres but I only did a 50% water change. Doing another water change now. Maybe 75%. Fish seem fine no issues here actually there even more active one even laying eggs. I think it's the Purigen however I soaked in prime for weeks and I would think if still traces of bleach all fish would be dead but there fine. 


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## [email protected]

Adding the prime as I add the water to the tank. Should u do it once tank is full? Or as I add water back to the tank. 


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## ed.junior

[email protected] said:


> Adding the prime as I add the water to the tank. Should u do it once tank is full? Or as I add water back to the tank.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is okay. I treat it apart, but you could add it to the tank as you add the water. This is not the problem. 

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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> This is okay. I treat it apart, but you could add it to the tank as you add the water. This is not the problem.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




What's caused it? I didn't add Purgen actually just this.









I am still lost. I haven't done anything different. 


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## Hilde

[email protected] said:


> What's caused it? I didn't add Purgen actually just this.


I believe that has charcoal in it and you don't want charcoal in a filter for a planted tank.

Bump:


[email protected] said:


> Adding the prime as I add the water to the tank. Should u do it once tank is full? Or as I add water back to the tank.


I add water conditioner when I start filling the tank.

Bump:


ed.junior said:


> What is prime? A water conditioner?


Yes!!


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## [email protected]

Hilde said:


> I believe that has charcoal in it and you don't want charcoal in a filter for a planted tank.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> I add water conditioner when I start filling the tank.
> 
> Bump:
> 
> Yes!!




Thanks Hilde I have removed the carbon from the media now. 


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## [email protected]

Ok this must have been the prime. Nothing else could have caused this




































I added one cap of prime the day before water change to lower Amonnia then added prob by mistake 2 caps after water change the next day. It can't be anything else other than this???? The only other thing would be doing a water test so PH, Nitites, ammonia, and Nitrates and putting my hands in the tank without washing them. Don't think it's this. Must be the prime. Only added half after the water change I do think it's this. I know you can't find much online but my heart tells me it's this. Anyway took so advice from ed going to do nothing but stick to dosing routine. As before also when I do a water change this weekend I will Beverly careful just to do 40 - 50 % and only add the correct dose of Prime. I have done 100s of water changes with no prime prior to fish and never this so it must be the prime that is my conclusion. 


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## Opare

The thing is I don't understand why the Prime would do this. All it really does is remove Chlorine and Chloramines, as well as make Ammonia less harmful.


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## ed.junior

I dont understand it either, but I would not overdose it. I would keep to routine. This way we hopefuly know what is going on, or at least how things work out.


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## [email protected]

Ok so the Saturday my levels were... So seen a spike... 










I then added 1 cap of prime which serves 200 litres. I have 240 but take off rocks/substrate levels etc. 

I then did a water change... Something happened to the tank as it was all cloudy really cloudy I think it was the carbon. 

On the Sunday I seen death in the plants.... 

I did another water change... And cleaned filter and removed the carbon. Tank was now clear no cloudy mess which I have never seen before so don't know where it came from...











Also it's also worth noting that I added carbon or zero carb to the filter on the Saturday which is when I got the cloudy mess which is also when all plants caught the plague.... 

On Sunday I did a 80% water change and cleaned the filter and removed the carbon... Water is crystal clear

Anyone got any ideas now? What could have caused this? The prime? The carbon?.... I am still lost... 


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## Maryland Guppy

Activated carbon, nitrate removal products and PO4 removal products can have an active exchange rate. High CEC aggregates can also operate in this fashion.

Explanation: If say a NO3 removal resin has absorbed all the NO3 it can and you perform a water change say 50%. At this time the resin may dump half of its accumulated NO3 back into your water column to reach a state of equilibrium.

I am not familiar with the Fluval product you were using.


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## Opare

Looks like you are going through a mini-cycle, when you said you 'changed the filter media' did you only add the carbon, or did you remove something already in the filter/replace bio-media as well? If you removed something/replacrd the bio-media that would be causing the mini-cycle.
The carbon was also not helping as it was taking nutrients out of the water.


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Could it have been the Purigen? It was in bleach to re-activate and a shed loads of Seachem prime. I added about two capfuls to 240litres but I only did a 50% water change. Doing another water change now. Maybe 75%. Fish seem fine no issues here actually there even more active one even laying eggs. I think it's the Purigen however I soaked in prime for weeks and I would think if still traces of bleach all fish would be dead but there fine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


how did you regen the purigen? Did you rinse the carbon before use?

Dan


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## [email protected]

Hi Dan. Ok so when I refilled the tank was fine. I turned the filter on and tank filled with pure cloud. I did pour a kettle on the carbon. But I think the cloud came from this. I think I didn't rinse it properly. 

Tank doing much better now sticking to Ed recommendations. Dosing without any change. Results tonight are as follows:










Tank looking much better after the tank went all cloudy I did a 80% water change and I cleaned the filter properly. Didn't change anything else but added the carbon. 

I recharge the Purigen in bleach for about 1 week add prime and rinse several times over the period of the week with more prime prior to outing back. 

I do think it was the carbon and I think I did something to the filter that caused the problem. 



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## [email protected]

Green plants again hurray









Lessons learned. If your cleaning the filter clean it properly. If you have plants DONT add any carbon of any sorts! 


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> Green plants again hurray
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lessons learned. If your cleaning the filter clean it properly. If you have plants DONT add any carbon of any sorts!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


yup good plan. Any time you clean the filter you may get some discoloration out of the outflow from loose debris not completely rinsed out of the filter. This is normal but should be minimal or you didn't clean it well enough. Carbon is just a no no in my eyes planted or not unless used for removal of meds or dire circumstances.

Dan


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## ed.junior

Looking good. Keep it up Ben!

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## BettaBettas

I use carbon in my aquariums. But idk what I would use without (suggestions?) it, doesn't effect my plants or growth? as far as I know.


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## ed.junior

It just absorbs a lot of stuff. You can up your fert dosing to compensate. I never saw much use to it, outside of treatment situations. Same thing for UV.

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## [email protected]

Some more plants added. I had to fix the HC and get more to fill the holes.. I killed two sections of the HC when I filled the tank either too cold or too hot but it's growing in again. Problem is the new HC I bought is very pale in comparison hopefully this will match the colour of the rest soon. See all updated plants below tree fully revitalised.










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## BettaBettas

that tank looks BA


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## [email protected]

BettaBettas said:


> that tank looks BA




Thanks. Took a while to get to this and still battling algae so having. To try new things. 


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## [email protected]

Further pics...




























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## longgonedaddy

Beautiful tank Ben! Glad to see this tank settled down and flourished for you.


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## [email protected]

longgonedaddy said:


> Beautiful tank Ben! Glad to see this tank settled down and flourished for you.




Thanks. It's not quite there yet. Battling loads of Algae at the moment. Think it's light duration so have reduced and also reduce feed for fish... 


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## BettaBettas

That tree looks crazy good, matter o' fact everything does! you must taste the ultimate flavor of Success!...


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## [email protected]

BettaBettas said:


> I use carbon in my aquariums. But idk what I would use without (suggestions?) it, doesn't effect my plants or growth? as far as I know.




Carbon to remove the Algae? This obsorbs all the good too though doesn't it? I just use bio media, Purigen and sponges. 


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## [email protected]

BettaBettas said:


> That tree looks crazy good, matter o' fact everything does! you must taste the ultimate flavor of Success!...




I would be much happier once I fix the algae issue there is only so much hydrogen peroxide one can use. Lol 


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## [email protected]

ed.junior said:


> It just absorbs a lot of stuff. You can up your fert dosing to compensate. I never saw much use to it, outside of treatment situations. Same thing for UV.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk




I have a UV pump but I stopped using it. Only use in algae bloom cases. But vary rare my Apisto is currently using it as a hatchery. So ain't turning this on anytime soon... 

Ok so what causes algae... 
- too much light
- duration of light 
- over feeding 
- over dosing ferts 
- not enough plant mass to fight for nutrients 

I have 2x54W T5 and 2x34W T8 on from 5pm - 11pm. Then the T5 turn off and the T8 stay on for another hour as I like the mood type lighting. 

Now I have recently a day or so ago reduce the lighting as it used to be on from 3PM when I did this I had and explosion of pearling and plants grew out. However I need to find somewhere Inbetween for the balance of good plant growth vs no algae. 

I can live with Algae on the rocks but on the HC is a nightmare and there is only so much hydrogen peroxide one can use. 

So could it be overdosing? I am useing the EI dosing method. 

Does anyone know if Potasium causes Algae? I read somewhere that it doesn't? As I dose quite a bit of this and Iron. 

Anyway going to see if the two hour reduction in lights help with the Algae. 

I recently got 2 plecs which are fantastic and 6 pepper cory... But these guys don't seem to eat that much algae I also have 5 SAE which are fantastic. 4 Otto which just sit there sucking on the glass and 5 amano shrimp but I think these guys have died not seen them in days so don't know where they are living unless they crawled out. 


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## BettaBettas

[email protected] said:


> Carbon to remove the Algae? This obsorbs all the good too though doesn't it? I just use bio media, Purigen and sponges.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 since I posted that I have changed to a bio sponge & filter floss in my HOB's so far so great !


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## Dman911

[email protected] said:


> I have a UV pump but I stopped using it. Only use in algae bloom cases. But vary rare my Apisto is currently using it as a hatchery. So ain't turning this on anytime soon...
> 
> Ok so what causes algae...
> - too much light
> - duration of light
> - over feeding
> - over dosing ferts
> - not enough plant mass to fight for nutrients
> 
> I have 2x54W T5 and 2x34W T8 on from 5pm - 11pm. Then the T5 turn off and the T8 stay on for another hour as I like the mood type lighting.
> 
> Now I have recently a day or so ago reduce the lighting as it used to be on from 3PM when I did this I had and explosion of pearling and plants grew out. However I need to find somewhere Inbetween for the balance of good plant growth vs no algae.
> 
> I can live with Algae on the rocks but on the HC is a nightmare and there is only so much hydrogen peroxide one can use.
> 
> So could it be overdosing? I am useing the EI dosing method.
> 
> Does anyone know if Potasium causes Algae? I read somewhere that it doesn't? As I dose quite a bit of this and Iron.
> 
> Anyway going to see if the two hour reduction in lights help with the Algae.
> 
> I recently got 2 plecs which are fantastic and 6 pepper cory... But these guys don't seem to eat that much algae I also have 5 SAE which are fantastic. 4 Otto which just sit there sucking on the glass and 5 amano shrimp but I think these guys have died not seen them in days so don't know where they are living unless they crawled out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sorry Ben I'm not trying to hijack (well maybe a little) but I will keep it relative to you situation. Since I'm trying to get into understanding ferts on an individual basis and balancing with light and Co2. I had a few questions/observations to add if you don't mind.

1. As far as my research potassium doesn't cause algae
2. There is a ratio on phosphate to nitrate ratio I read somewhere and for the life of me I cannot remember where or what it is. If these are out of balance would it cause algae issues?
3. under dosing can lead to algae but I don't think that's your issue since you dose EI.
4. Flow in the tank is important to make sure all the plants are getting the Co2 and nutrients they need since unhealthy plants are algae magnets.
5.Dead shrimps may be contributing as decaying plant or fish/shrimp can have an impact.
6.Have you checked your purigen to see if it needs to be renewed? purigen absorbs organic waste

Hope this helps and hope you don't mind. Its more question than answers but I think its relevant to your questions.

Dan


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## [email protected]

I should have enough flow I have a fluval 306 and a hydro 900. Although not sure which is best place for position. My CO2 bazooka Atomizer is in the middle of tank and my pumps are both on the right. Should I move the hydra to suck up the Co2 bubbles and blow them around the tank? I don't think it is flow. Also should I place flow on either side of the tank or at one side only. Purigen been changed. Can't find the shrimp looked everywhere. There is circulations but it's not crazy Rapids let me know your thoughts on position of all pumps. I have fluval 306 outlet on the right, the hydra on the right and the elehm skimmer on the right. 


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## [email protected]

[email protected] said:


> I should have enough flow I have a fluval 306 and a hydro 900. Although not sure which is best place for position. My CO2 bazooka Atomizer is in the middle of tank and my pumps are both on the right. Should I move the hydra to suck up the Co2 bubbles and blow them around the tank? I don't think it is flow. Also should I place flow on either side of the tank or at one side only. Purigen been changed. Can't find the shrimp looked everywhere. There is circulations but it's not crazy Rapids let me know your thoughts on position of all pumps. I have fluval 306 outlet on the right, the hydra on the right and the elehm skimmer on the right.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Oh no 5 days later and a shrimp has appeared 


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## Dman911

I prefer to have my intake(s) and drop checker at one end (because I run an inline atomizer) and output and Co2 injection at the opposite end. I feel this creates a flow from one end of the tank to the other, ensuring good distribution of Co2 and nutrients. Some prefer input and output at the same end, either way your goal is to ensure that you have no dead spots and all plants are getting Co2 and nutrients. How you achieve this is kind of a personal choice and different for each tank, power heads can be used to help for dead spots or increased flow. I would advise against putting your Co2 injection close to your intake for any filter, this can lead to a build up of Co2 in your filter and could possibly cause damage to it.


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