# Trouble with Rotala - Fert Imbalance, CO2, Deficiency?



## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

First real trouble shooting post for me. I've pretty much gone it alone reading other people's issues and tweaking my setup here and there. Also my first ever planted tank. 

Tank Params

Ada Mini-L (so roughly 10gal)
Filter - Eheim 2213
Light - Ada Aquasky - 9hrs

CO2 - on 2 hours before lights, off hour before. Drop checker is consistently lime/yellow green throughout photoperiod. Adding Flourish Excel at recommended dose to combat some aggressive BBA that was introduced into the tank long long ago. Starting to finally win this battle. 

Dosing EI
N: 10-20
P: 3-5
K: ? backed off on adding due to K in other ferts and GH booster.
Micros: CSM-B 1/64th tsp daily
Iron: 2ml Flourish Iron 2x/week
Water is quite soft out of tap 1KH and practically 0GH so I add enough baking soda and Flourish Equilibrium to bring it up to about 6KH and 6GH.
PH: generally 6.4 around mid-day
50% weekly water changes

I never used to have any problems with Rotala Rotundifolia. Early on it grew like mad for me and blushed a nice pink hue. That was when I had crushed coral in the filter to boost the KH and kept to an ADA ferts/dosing schedule. When I started having severe problems with GSA and other filamentous green algae I switched over to an EI daily dosing schedule. Now my Rotala is stunted other than a few stems that seem fine, but once those get a trim I'll have the same problem. Everything else in the tank seems ok.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Couple of things. Are you using Aquasoil? I think I see it in the last picture but not sure.

If you are using it then you really don't need to be dosing the water column with ferts except GH booster and potassium. 

How sure are you that the N level is 10-20 at all times? I see older leaves have small holes in them on the Rotalas, and smaller new growth which looks like typical nitrogen deficiency.

Also, do you know what the Ca:Mg ratio is in your tank right now? 

1/64th CSM / day is very high, you are adding 0.12 ppm iron every day from CSM + B, or 0.84 ppm per week Iron. This may not be the cause of your current issue but it is definitely high and could be a problem later since many micros are toxic in tiny amounts.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks for the reply Zapins!



> Couple of things. Are you using Aquasoil? I think I see it in the last picture but not sure.
> 
> If you are using it then you really don't need to be dosing the water column with ferts except GH booster and potassium.


Yep Aquasoil. I'm willing to consider going back to just the GH and K, but in the tank's early days - say 6mo in. I had lots of problems with yellowing leaves on the HC, very sad looking didiplis diandra and lots of filamentous and GSA. The GSA subsided once I started dosing my phosphates above 3ppm and the tank has been free off any filamentous algae since I started lightly dosing nitrogen. Causation doesn't necessarily equal correlation here, but adding N/P did seem to help my situation.

The tank is about a year and a half in now and has seen a couple rescapes using the same aquasoil with some toping off. Just fyi.



> How sure are you that the N level is 10-20 at all times? I see older leaves have small holes in them on the Rotalas, and smaller new growth which looks like typical nitrogen deficiency.


Well all times is probably generous. I usually test a couple times a week, less if things simply look healthy, and while I know test kits can lie the N is usually around 5ppm after my weekly water change and up to about 20 by end of the week. 



> Also, do you know what the Ca:Mg ratio is in your tank right now?


No clue. I'll have to pick up a calcium test kit before I can report on that one. Pretty much relying on the GH booster to have proper ratios at this point.



> 1/64th CSM / day is very high, you are adding 0.12 ppm iron every day from CSM + B, or 0.84 ppm per week Iron. This may not be the cause of your current issue but it is definitely high and could be a problem later since many micros are toxic in tiny amounts.


I'll cut this back by half.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Zapins, I don't want to say this is the answer to what's happening, but this paragraph in Happi's thread around CSM+B toxicity felt eerily similar to what has been happening in my tank the past couple months. 



> The actual symptoms of micro nutrient toxicities can look a lot like deficiency symptoms. But they appear as a confused conglomeration of several deficiency symptoms that do not match up with any one deficiency. This is because micro nutrients block certain enzymes and pathways in plants, and distrupt normal functioning of the cells. Often times this happens by blocking the use or uptake of another nutrient. So as happi mentioned above, an iron toxicity shows up as a pale looking plant because it blocks the use of sulfur in the photosynthetic system. The absence of sulfur from the enzymes causes the plant to look yellow (which is also a symptom of sulfur deficiency). Unfortunately this is often confused as iron deficiency because of the pale color of the plant. Hobbyists often see this pale color and think that they are not adding enough iron, so they add more iron or CSM+B and create a cycle that perpetuates the problem.


The reason I have been dosing the CSM+B so heavily is because I was noticing pale growth in the Rotala and Didiplis stems thinking it may have been an iron deficiency. I don't know if you caught it above, but I also have been dosing 2ml Flourish Iron 2x/week for the same reason.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes I did notice you were adding a lot of iron and I had wondered why.

I am surprised it has taken the hobby so long to realize the boundaries of what we can safely dose. It might be the cause of what you have experienced. Toxicities occur a lot more often than people think. Dosing iron using flourish iron is better than dosing iron via CSM+B. I feel it is much safer to use the recommended dose of CSM+B (to get 0.1 ppm iron) and then dose more iron using a separate product for that purpose. If you look at Seachem's line you'll notice that their micro product does not contain iron, instead they sell it as a separate mix. While this may just be coincidence, I feel that perhaps the company put some thought into this issue.

The pictures you show are somewhat difficult to tell from since the new Rotala shoots are still quite small, but it looks like nitrogen deficiency which is slightly odd considering you have aquasoil. Who knows what is still in it though. I trust plant symptoms more than I do test kits and what should be in the tank and in your pictures I see deteriorating older growth (which points to a mobile nutrient like NPK) and smaller than normal new growth that twists slightly. Twisting can be a sign of Ca/Mg issues, but oddly Rotala plants tend to have new growth twisting in nitrogen deficiency as well. So at this point I'd up the dose of KNO3, maybe add a second dose at some point mid week. Especially since adding KNO3 has a low risk of causing a toxicity and your test kit often reads 5 ppm. I think it is quite plausible that it might be closer to 0 than 5 at least for part of the week which is why the weird growth tends to occur after water changes (because it ran out mid weekish and the deficiency symptoms don't start until a few days later around water change day). 

I'd try adding a second dose of KNO3 at some point during the week and seeing if that helps. You should know within a week or so if it has worked.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

i don't want to cause any argument here but i suggest adding different source of Nitrogen which use more than one kind of nitrogen source, i highly suggest making your own recipe using KNO3 and Urea, which is similar to Seachem. i was dosing heavy nitrate and plant did not respond to it very well until i started to dose Urea/NO3 dosing.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

happi said:


> i don't want to cause any argument here but i suggest adding different source of Nitrogen which use more than one kind of nitrogen source, i highly suggest making your own recipe using KNO3 and Urea, which is similar to Seachem. i was dosing heavy nitrate and plant did not respond to it very well until i started to dose Urea/NO3 dosing.


Actually, right now I'm using leftover Flourish Nitrogen similar to what you're suggesting. Haven't switched that over to the dry KNO3 that I have.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Urea is another decent source of nitrogen, though using it hasn't been widely adopted/tried out in the hobby.

I think you could give it a try if you wanted to, but you need to be aware that in tanks with pH above 7 it will degrade into ammonia which can trigger green water and possibly affect livestock. So use it if you want but be sure you are aware of the potential for something to go wrong.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Zapins said:


> Urea is another decent source of nitrogen, though using it hasn't been widely adopted/tried out in the hobby.
> 
> I think you could give it a try if you wanted to, but you need to be aware that in tanks with pH above 7 it will degrade into ammonia which can trigger green water and possibly affect livestock. So use it if you want but be sure you are aware of the potential for something to go wrong.


+1 and do not go crazy with it, IME plant will consume 0.6-0.8 ppm of NH4 per day in heavily planted tank, i suggest starting with 1ppm NO3 and 0.3ppm urea in case you decide to use it for your tank. i have used urea for long time and tested it many time and i fully support it being superior to NO3 and you will see a boost to your plant growth.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I have no problem using urea in addition to KNO3 but I don't think you should lower the KNO3 dose, you can definitely add a second KNO3 dose during the week, and a little bit of urea as happi suggested, but lets be sure that it is nitrogen deficiency first before we swap out urea for KNO3. 

I recently read a few studies that examined using ammonia as the only source of N for plants, and they showed that plants actually suffered toxicity like symptoms when using ammonia as the only source of N compared with plants grown in tanks using nitrate only. The researchers are unsure what the exact mechanism of damage is that causes the ammonia toxicity symptoms but it is quite a wide spread problem in agriculture and even in forests. Furthermore, ammonia toxicity seems to affect plants that are not acid tolerant more than it affects acid tolerant plants. The research I read did not cover plants grown using both KNO3 and ammonia so I do not know if they would also show toxicity symptoms or not if both forms of N are present.

Anyway, the point is, be careful when you add urea or ammonia because it is not as safe as KNO3 in terms of plant health though it does seem to be easier to take up and use in the plant and will also tend to give you more bushy looking plants. Moderation is the key.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

yep lets focus on your situation for now and we will discus about the Nitrogen sources later on. if you are using seachem nitrogen now, please do report back in a week or so.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

happi said:


> yep lets focus on your situation for now and we will discus about the Nitrogen sources later on. if you are using seachem nitrogen now, please do report back in a week or so.


I may have to give it a little more than a week, but I'll do my best. Going out of town for the holidays and having friends watch the house. Hoping they can stick to my schedule 

Either way I'll provide updates along the way. Plan is to start with cutting back strongly on the CSM+B then will look at upping the Nitrogen if the problem continues.

Just to note - Did my standard 50% water change tonight and tested nitrates.
Test is showing 5ppm, which is what I usually get after my water changes.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

From the photos it looks more likely to be a nitrogen deficiency than a CSM+B toxicity at the doses you have, so I'd recommend adding more nitrogen before you cut the CSM+B dose in half rather than the other way around, I think you'll see an improvement within a week if you do it that way.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

So, coming back here to report progress, but it's pretty much pointless. While I was out of town the timer broke on my CO2 in the on position. Guessing it was only for a couple days, but that was more than enough time to wreak havoc in the tank. Lost a few fish and a shrimp and the swings in CO2 appear to have caused a bloom of BBA that I just don't want to deal with at this point. Phosphates also dropped to about 0.5ppm so I have GSA all over the place.  

There seemed to be some minor improvement in the rotala growth, nothing impressive, but at this point I'm planning on a fresh start next week.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Sorry to hear about your loss of fish. 

I don't think you should start over though, BBA is common in almost all fully established high tech tanks so restarting the tank won't really solve the problem. Just use flourish excel to spot treat it (with a syringe). You can also use gluteraldehyde instead since it is cheaper.

If possible you should take some pictures of the plants from the same position as before so we can see exactly how much progression there is. I'd love to find out.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

*Tank 2.0*

Sorry Zapins, I couldn't resist the urge to rescape the tank. 

Still having trouble, though I'm not sure it's the same problem as before.
Everything is new in the tank (soil, most plants) except for some staurogen and trident java fern I rescued from the previous scape.

The major equipment upgrade on this version is the CO2 diffusor. I had a DoAqua! diffusor on the last tank that I was never quite pleased with. It spit out large bubbles and I have a feeling it was giving me false readings on my drop checker with these bubbles collecting under the drop checker. The new one is a GLA Atomic and I dig it. A lot. Feel like I'm getting far better dispersion throughout the tank and a more accurate reading on the drop checker. The small amounts of BBA that came in on some of the old staurogen and some of the hardscape has not spread and I've been slowly spot dosing daily with 1ml of Excel.

Here's the current regimen/setup
Light: Aquasky - 8hrs
Aquasoil Amazonia
Filter: eheim2213
CO2: on 3hrs before lights, drop checker green 2 hours after lights, yellow green at end of photo period. (just switched to atomic diffusor this past thursday and have been tuning it up while watching fish and drop checker)
Macro Ferts are high right now to rule out low N & P
Seachem N: 2ml daily
KH2PO4: 3ml daily from a solution I made (thinking about going dry on this)
K2SO4: 1/64th every other day (though seems unnecessary)
CSM+B: 1/64th every other day (worried this is far too low now)
Seachem Iron: 1ml every other day
Seachem GH Booster: 1/4tsp per gallon @ water change
Baking Soda: 1/8tsp per gallon @ water change
Easy-Life water conditioner @ water change.
Weekly 50% water change (was doing these daily the first week of setup to combat ammonia leeching from aquasoil)
Water out of tap: 1kh, ~0gh, ~7.0ph

Flora/Fauna (not going to bother trying to spell these right haha!)
Hygrophila Pinnatifida (leaves just starting to go immersed)
Trident Java fern
Staurogen Repens
Rotala Rotundifolia
Rotala Nanjenshen
Bolbitis
Giant Hairgrass
Java Moss
Christmas Moss

5 blue rasboras
2 green fire tetra
3 oto
4 amano shrimp

Params at last water change
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
N: ~40-80ppm
P: ~5ppm
KH: 5
GH: 5
PH: ~6.4 toward end of day

New layout was in place about 2 weeks ago.

Everything was fine until I did my first trim (1 week ago). I'm thinking that in this case we're dealing with low CO2 (just switched diffusors and still tuning) and low micros.

Both rotala are showing poor growth and chlorosis/melt. The stems that are in direct blast of the CO2 have less extreme chlorosis, but new growth is very lime green/pale.

The rotala rotundifolia leaves melted after the first trim and new growth on some stems is transparent. Perhaps the first trim was too much for them to happen after only being in this tank for about 2 weeks? This symptom came on fast. We're talking 1-2 days after the trim. 

And here's the pics:

Before the first trim


















Post Trim


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Your tank is 7.5 gallons.

While the new growth of the plants looks a lot like iron deficiency (pale new growth), the symptoms of iron toxicity are also pale new growth. This is because iron blocks sulfur use and sulfur deficiency is a pale looking plant (looks very similar to iron deficiency). 

I think it is interesting that you are 0.15 ppm iron from CSM+B, 0.35 ppm from flourish iron every other day. Over the course of a week you are adding about 2.0 ppm iron. So you are actually adding a lot of iron, which makes me think a toxicity is more likely, especially since you have a lot fewer plants now than you did in your first post (less plants to absorb the iron). Also, since you have aquasoil you shouldn't need to be adding any fertilizer to the water column (except maybe potassium), especially not in the beginning of its usable life. The point of aquasoil is to reduce or eliminate the need to dose fertilizers at all.

The deteriorating old growth might be caused by the fact that you cut the plants and left the old stems planted. Over time, if you keep removing the tops and leaving the original old stems, the older leaves will deteriorate. This is likely just the normal aging process at work, though it could be that trimming the plants caused some amount of stress and high iron levels added to that stress. Leaves don't last forever especially on stem plants. 

I suppose you have a choice. You can either add more iron than you are doing now and see if the problem is iron deficiency. Or you can do a few large water changes and cut the iron dosing down (by not using the SeaChem product but still using the CSM+B, or not using either of them). I'll leave it up to you which one you want to investigate first.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Thanks for the reply Zapins.
Did a water change, cutting back on all ferts. Will report back with results.


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## synaethetic (Oct 4, 2011)

Great thread with lots of information I have been looking for.
Cheers!


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Well, 2 water changes and about 5 days later here's where we are at.

Went to every other day dosing on N+P. Today is the first day I dosed CSM+B. Cut the Flourish Iron completely. Growth is still slightly pale (more so in real life than photos show), but I'm pleased with where things are headed.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Not bad at all. They look like they are growing quite fast. Given another few days or so I'd bet they will look just fine again 

Be sure to post an updated photo soon, I'd love to see their progress.


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## gzeiger (Dec 30, 2008)

Curious about one thing - you mentioned several times a nitrate test at 5 ppm following the water change as evidence of sufficient nitrogen, but 5-10 ppm wouldn't be an unusual reading for many municipal water supplies. I would test my tap water before using the after water change result to convince myself that I was supplying adequate nitrogen.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

This thread is very interesting, since I moved into EI a month ago, I have been experiencing the exact same problem with my Rotala Rotoundifolia. It used to grow pretty well (not very well though), then I moved into EI to improve my overall plant health, and whereas most of my other plants got better, Rotala turned dark, stunted growth at the tips as well as twisted growth. Also, some leaves turned a little translucent. At first I thought was a lack of micros, so I increased them without any difference... After 1 week I realized that I was dosing too low KNo3, so I increased that to reach a level of at least 30-40ppm a day to overrule any possible Nitrogen deficiency. All other nutrients are slightly in excess, but after 3 weeks my Rotala has not improved much, here are some pictures of it:




























Note the tips of the last picture: they just don't grow! Even if I cut the stem at the top, the re-growth is stunted!

Rotala is not the only plant that didn't respond well to EI. Ambulias are not growing, and Alternanthera is still adapting replacing old leaves with new ones... At least I guess so, because all leaves are turning dark with holes after a while... There are some good leaves, but it grow very slowly. But maybe that is just a matter of time....

All other plants instead are growing very well: Higrophilas, Vallisnerias and Microswords have. I problem at all, instead they are growing and replicating like crazy.

I'd say that Rotala is the one that suffered the most, and I am still trying to understand why... Ideas?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

fablau I think you should start a help thread of your own, we can work through the possibilities there.

I think you likely have a different issue than oddnature.

What type are your 160w bulbs and how long ago were they changed out? Old bulbs may be an issue.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Yes, I am going to create a new thread... Thanks!


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

oddnature said:


> Water is quite soft out of tap 1KH and practically 0GH so I add enough baking soda and Flourish Equilibrium to bring it up to about 6KH and 6GH.


My vote is that this is your issue. Your soft water is ideal for Rotalas. You should only be reconstituting your GH to 5-6 degrees. Leave the KH alone and I'll bet those Rotalas will thank you. 

Plants in general do not need KH. If you are really worried about it reconstitute it to 1 degree, but not 6 degrees. That's way too high.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

AaronT said:


> My vote is that this is your issue. Your soft water is ideal for Rotalas. You should only be reconstituting your GH to 5-6 degrees. Leave the KH alone and I'll bet those Rotalas will thank you.
> 
> Plants in general do not need KH. If you are really worried about it reconstitute it to 1 degree, but not 6 degrees. That's way too high.


agreed, Rotalas loves low KH, GH around 2-3 is fine as well.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

happi said:


> agreed, Rotalas loves low KH, GH around 2-3 is fine as well.


This plus the CO2 issue, which is related to the low KH's.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

oddnature said:


> Well, 2 water changes and about 5 days later here's where we are at.
> 
> Went to every other day dosing on N+P. Today is the first day I dosed CSM+B. Cut the Flourish Iron completely. Growth is still slightly pale (more so in real life than photos show), but I'm pleased with where things are headed.


If many frequent water changes clean things up, growth improves, then it's a CO2 issue most likely.

You should observe the pH drop and try and use that as a relative measure.
LED's, well.....they are not the best for nice red coloration..........

Observations for CO2 adjustment based on the plant's growth, this is the key.
EI is just a simple method to make the ferts independent. So the rest of the issues will be things like CO2 mostly.

Maybe water changes and good general care etc.

Note, as mentioned by several here, GH is part of this, so adding GH booster will help a lot.

I have similar tap:




I dose 2x a week: KNO3, about 1.5 tsp, 3/4 tsp KH2PO4, maybe 2 Tablespoons of GH booster.

Then dose traces 4-6x a week.

I garden on this tank and trim, sell the plants etc, so I do water changes 2x a week and keep it clean and tidy, which folks who have issues really should be doing or if they have a newly set up or rescaped aquarium.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

fablau said:


> This thread is very interesting, since I moved into EI a month ago, I have been experiencing the exact same problem with my Rotala Rotoundifolia. It used to grow pretty well (not very well though), then I moved into EI to improve my overall plant health, and whereas most of my other plants got better, Rotala turned dark, stunted growth at the tips as well as twisted growth. Also, some leaves turned a little translucent. At first I thought was a lack of micros, so I increased them without any difference... After 1 week I realized that I was dosing too low KNo3, so I increased that to reach a level of at least 30-40ppm a day to overrule any possible Nitrogen deficiency. All other nutrients are slightly in excess, but after 3 weeks my Rotala has not improved much, here are some pictures of it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have the same exact problem. I did a dry start, then everything went well with EI for the first 2 months then everything started to go south. I'm still having issues with my rotala and I just tore out my Alternanthera. I dosed waaaaayyyyy above what normal EI calls for because it looked like some kind of deficiency but I don't think that was it. I've turned up my CO2 for the last week now and we'll see what happens. 

Although I must say, that my duckweeds have pin holes in them. I'm positive that it's from potassium deficiency since they're not CO2 limited. So overall a bit lost, it would be great if someone can shed some light on this.

These are pictures just before I stated to diagnose my problem.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

*Jalopy* that looks like Trace toxicity, those pin holes rather might be toxicity as well, i can see the toxicity issue in your first pic on the left side, also as you can see new grown leave look healthy and the old one are suffering


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Jalopy - what are your nitrate readings? How much do you dose? a lack of nitrates can cause holes in old growth and twisted new growth.

Potassium might be a possibility, but twisted new growth isn't related to that.

Calcium might cause the twisting but wouldn't cause the holes on the rotala.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Hey Zapins, I'm inclined to go with happi's diagnosis. A bit embarrassed about how much I over dosed but here it is. Here's my fertilizer formula and I was doing the 3x dosing for micro/macro on alternate days.


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Why your potassium nitrate is set to 0?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

While it may be a toxicity - you are dosing 1.5 ppm iron from CSM+B per week. This is certainly on the upper limit of what I'd consider safe. That said, I'm not sure that I'd expect the CSM+B doses to show such profound toxicity issues though. Your plants are reacting very strongly to whatever is wrong in the tank, and the dose of CSM+B you are adding is the dose that you'd expect to see maybe 5-10% of the plants in your tank showing signs, and those signs shouldn't be so profound. You'd mainly expect them to slow down in growth, perhaps have a little bit of damaged growth. 

I suppose if your tap water is extremely rich in certain micros then you might be hitting higher toxicity levels which would cause the plants to show more profound symptoms. 

Also, as fablau asked - why is the KNO3 at 0 ppm? Is this just a chart error or are the nitrate levels really 0? If they are, then I'd recommend increasing that because the signs do match nitrogen deficiency (deteriorating older leaves and stunted/twisted new growth).

So, basically two options, one is to do several large water changes to flush out micros, and then readjust the dosing and see how that goes for a week and the other option is to dose more KNO3 and wait a week to see what happens.

Let us know which you do and how it turns out.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Hey Zapins,
Sorry for not being more clear. It's 1.5ppm of Fe *per day*. Hence my embarrassment. I did notice some stunted growth on all my rotalas, Wallichii and Colorata. It's just that on the Wallichii, the leaves are so thin that I didn't really notice it. In addition, my Tonina Lago Grand completely stopped growing. 

The short answer is my nitrate is at 0 because I suck at growing plants. By the way, nobody told me that a turkey baster is such and essential part of the tool kit to getting everything super clean. I wish I'd known earlier.

The long answer is I'm working and going to school at the same time. I didn't notice my CO2 went out of adjustment and BBA, Cladophora, and hair algae took over. So there was a persistent 40ppm of nitrate as everything slowly rotted. I didn't want to stress the fish out too much with ammonia spikes so I've been slowly cleaning everything out over the last couple of weeks.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Oh wow. 

Well then, I think that's very likely the problem, 1.5 ppm iron every day along with all the other micro nutrients CSM adds definitely brings you into the toxic range for several of the micro nutrients. Iron would be at 10.5 ppm, copper 0.21, Zn 6.3 ppm, Mn 2.94 ppm by the end of the week - all well into the toxic range for each nutrient.

Still though, the nitrates should be higher than that. That may have contributed to the problem as well. Plants can develop a deficiency and a toxicity at the same time, so that complicates things a little. Definitely think the CSM+B is the problem though


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

The table I gave is what I'm dosing. Nitrate was always at 40ppm. Now it's more like 20 now that I've cleaned some of the stuff out.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Hope it's ok if I resuscitate this thread. Looks like it's been helpful for a few others which is great!

I've adjusted my dosing quite a bit since this thread started. Moved onto dry dosing, 1/16th tsp KN03 & 1/64th tsp P04 4x per week. 1/64th tsp CSM+B 3x per week. Enough GH booster and Baking Soda to raise GH & KH to 3 degrees.

Here's an update on my tank a few trims/replants and additions later.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> If many frequent water changes clean things up, growth improves, then it's a CO2 issue most likely.
> 
> You should observe the pH drop and try and use that as a relative measure.
> LED's, well.....they are not the best for nice red coloration..........
> ...


Tom,
Are you just saying to keep an eye on the CO2 as the plants recover? Tuning it up as demand increases with better plant growth?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

oddnature, your plants are looking great! So for others looking at this thread in the future, what do you think the cause of your problems was? Dosing too much or too little? What changes did you make since your last post. 

Jalopy - I'd love to hear an update of your reduced CSM+B dosing.


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## oddnature (Jan 11, 2013)

Zapins said:


> oddnature, your plants are looking great! So for others looking at this thread in the future, what do you think the cause of your problems was? Dosing too much or too little? What changes did you make since your last post.
> 
> Jalopy - I'd love to hear an update of your reduced CSM+B dosing.



Thanks! Yeah definitely think it was Fe overdosing from the GH booster, CSM+B plus some additional Seachem Iron. Yeah, overkill. Ha!

Compared to when I started this post out I'm dosing well under half the amount of Fe that I was originally. 

One thing I did notice is that while the stem plants were experiencing the greatest impact the slower growers like the staurogen and java ferns were showing some interesting rust-like tinting on the edges of their leaves. Mosses browned and slowed drastically. I also noticed most exposed roots were turning brown as well. I want to say I came across an old Diana Walstad post online that spoke to this happening with too much iron in the water column. Don't quote me on it, but it may be another way to identify this toxicity, though at that point you're probably already having numerous other issues.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you ever have some plants doing poorly, and yet others doing really well, CO2, CO2 and CO2.

Rotala's are Weeds.

All of them.

EI rules out the fert issues.

If you dosed really lean prior, then that issue is no longer a limiting growth, thus the plants can use the CO2 now, so if you had been adding too little CO2/current etc.........the limitation of nutrients was the only thing holding stuff back, *you still had poor CO2 management.* 

When 2 different species are doing poorly, and we can rule out KH sensitivities etc, then all you really are left with is the CO2.

After a big trim, some plants will not compete as much as plants that are taller/higher/closer to the light for CO2.

You can also try trimming by uprooting the plants, cut off the bottom part and toss away and replant only the tops. Some plants simply respond much better to this method than others. 

ADA aqua soil runs out of NH4 after a few months of excellent growth. 
My ADA As is rather old, a few years now in the tank example I provided.

So the ferts I add obviously are not limiting nor any other special careful dosing routine is not the issue, it cannot be in fact. I have plenty of species that qualify as some of the touchiness stem plants around. I trim and garden intensively. 

The smaller the tank, the harder it can be to manage, particularly CO2 IME.
But water changes are a snap and easy to do. A 7 gallon tank, this takes maybe 5 minutes at the most. Maybe 3-4 minutes. 1-2 minutes to drain, 1-2 minutes to refill. 
If the tank improves a great deal with 2-3x a week water change, you dose only thereafter, then this is a clear sign of a CO2 issue. 

Some plants doing well, but other stunted tips? Classic CO2 issue being a little bit too low for some species, but okay for others. You have some species beating up for a limited resource, CO2. I mean come on, what are the odds that all 400+ species of plants all have the same CO2 requirement for good healthy growth? 

Nearly zero.

Plants will tell you what you need as far as CO2.

Those scintered glass diffusers NEED cleaned frequently, good current, stable water level (huge issue for smaller nano sized tanks), all these issues conspire to make the CO2 a larger issue.

Plants once they top out on the surface, get taller, they are bullies in the tank and have fewer issues, but after a good cut............not so much.

So more water changes, good CO2, make sure the water level does not drop etc. This is basic stuff for most any issue folks might have with planted tanks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

oddnature said:


> Thanks! Yeah definitely think it was Fe overdosing from the GH booster, CSM+B plus some additional Seachem Iron. Yeah, overkill. Ha!
> 
> Compared to when I started this post out I'm dosing well under half the amount of Fe that I was originally.
> 
> One thing I did notice is that while the stem plants were experiencing the greatest impact the slower growers like the staurogen and java ferns were showing some interesting rust-like tinting on the edges of their leaves. Mosses browned and slowed drastically. I also noticed most exposed roots were turning brown as well. I want to say I came across an old Diana Walstad post online that spoke to this happening with too much iron in the water column. Don't quote me on it, but it may be another way to identify this toxicity, though at that point you're probably already having numerous other issues.


No, the issue was poor CO2, the mosses turning brown is a dead ringer.
I grow all these plants very well and sell them often. I've never seen a single case of toxicity at an upper level for N(NH4 yes, but not the others), P, Fe, K+, Ca, Mg. I've dosed these much higher than anyone else has reported on line to date. I'm sure someone could go higher certainly, but it's very unlikely unless they meant to do it and are willing to toast their tank, which folks who already have issues, rarely, if ever, are willing to do. 

You can limit things.

But all indicators you listed suggest what I said above, which is mostly a mild to moderate CO2 issue. Light check, Ferts, check, sediment, check. Not much else is left.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Zapins said:


> oddnature, your plants are looking great! So for others looking at this thread in the future, what do you think the cause of your problems was? Dosing too much or too little? What changes did you make since your last post.
> 
> Jalopy - I'd love to hear an update of your reduced CSM+B dosing.


So I really think it was the micro toxicity. I know what Tom said but the only thing I changed was to lower the dosage and add Excel for the algae. Even the mixture ratio has stayed the same. You can catch a pin hole or two in the lower right corner and none after. 

I have two new problems though. First of all, I think now I'm under dosing because new growth in my rotala, anubias nana, ludwigia repens, and blyxa have yellowish new leaves. So I've upped my KNO3 to 3.5ppm per dose 3 times a week (just started this on Monday) because I'm testing 5ppm of nitrate every day. Second of all, I'm getting dead patches in my java fern. Could this be the Excel? My BBA are turning red though.

Anyway, this might be a case of too much tinkering. Somehow everything was perfect for 2 months and now it seems like it's next to impossible to recover from my CO2 mishap (no CO2 for maybe a week while I studied for finals). 

New fertilizer schedule. Only thing different is adding KNO3.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

I just saw this post by Tom about java fern leaves turning black. He says that it's due to a lack of CO2. But I tested my CO2 and it's at least 34 ppm.

I tested a pH of about 6.2 from an API test at lights out just now. The card only has colors for 6.0 and 6.4, nothing in between. My kH is 3 so that's a range between 35ppm and 90ppm CO2. I should add that ever since I dialed back my EI dose, I've been getting a ton of bio film and it's trapping a bunch of CO2. Can excessive CO2 kill java fern?

I've got red Fluorite with a Build My LED 10000k fixture dimmed to about 45 PAR at the substrate. 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98389


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

oddnature said:


> Thanks! Yeah definitely think it was Fe overdosing from the GH booster, CSM+B plus some additional Seachem Iron. Yeah, overkill. Ha!


It is certainly possible it was too much iron. If your plants are doing better now that you have reduced the dosing then it sounds like you've figured it out.



oddnature said:


> One thing I did notice is that while the stem plants were experiencing the greatest impact the slower growers like the staurogen and java ferns were showing some interesting rust-like tinting on the edges of their leaves. Mosses browned and slowed drastically. I also noticed most exposed roots were turning brown as well. I want to say I came across an old Diana Walstad post online that spoke to this happening with too much iron in the water column. Don't quote me on it, but it may be another way to identify this toxicity, though at that point you're probably already having numerous other issues.


Iron toxicity occurs more frequently in acidic environments since iron becomes more soluble at a lower pH. Therefore, the more we gun our CO2 systems the more iron becomes soluble in our water.



> Iron toxicity is not common, but some plants do secrete acids from the roots, which lowers soil pH. These plants can take up too much iron, leading to toxicity. The symptoms of iron toxicity include bronzing and stippling of leaves. The leaf discoloration is caused by the plant creating enzymes to control free radicals that are present in high iron levels.


From:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/effect-excess-iron-plants-48927.html​
*Jalopy* - those plants actually look iron deficient. New, normal shaped pale growth is the primary symptom of iron deficient plants. You need to add a bit more iron, if you don't want to use CSM+B to add iron then use EDTA, DTPA, or another iron only supplement. 

The Excel you are using is probably killing the BBA off by turning it red.

The java ferns are hard to see in the photo. The damaged parts could just be old leaves dying off, or perhaps it is a delayed result of the CSM+B overdosing. They are slow growing plants.



Jalopy said:


> I just saw this post by Tom about java fern leaves turning black. He says that it's due to a lack of CO2. But I tested my CO2 and it's at least 34 ppm.


Contrary to popular belief there are actually no plant damage symptoms associated with a CO2 deficiency. Plants simply slow or stop their growth. There may be calcium deposits on aquatic plant leaves as certain species break apart bicarbonates and carbonates for use as CO2, however, these leaf deposits are not damage to the plant tissue itself.

From:
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904169009364136?journalCode=lpla20#preview​


Jalopy said:


> I tested a pH of about 6.2 from an API test at lights out just now. The card only has colors for 6.0 and 6.4, nothing in between. My kH is 3 so that's a range between 35ppm and 90ppm CO2. I should add that ever since I dialed back my EI dose, I've been getting a ton of bio film and it's trapping a bunch of CO2. Can excessive CO2 kill java fern?


No, excess CO2 is not toxic to plants until it reaches 10,000 ppm (see above article). I think you have enough CO2.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Ok, well I'm double dosing the CMS+B this week. I'll keep it up next week and see if anything changes. I wonder why the Flourite isn't helping with the iron deficiency?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

The iron and other nutrients in Fluorite are locked away where plants cannot get at them. The substrate is basically inert and provides no significant amount of nutrients to plants.

The best bet is to use a separate iron only supplement to provide iron and use CSM+B for providing the other micros.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

listen to what Zapins have to say, he knows what he is talking about. i wouldn't add too much csm+b, IME i went up to 1ppm of Fe from csm+b per week without any issue, but i also have fast growing plants and high tech setup, in your case i suggest cutting it down to 0.5ppm per week from csm+b and you can dose 0.05- 0.1ppm of Fe from DTPA 3x week, which i think are in safe levels, i use this on my current setup and works fine, you can cut this in half and see how the plant respond. make sure you are doing 50% water changes otherwise we might have to cut out more of the Traces.


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## happi (Dec 18, 2009)

Jalopy said:


> Ok, well I'm double dosing the CMS+B this week. I'll keep it up next week and see if anything changes. I wonder why the Flourite isn't helping with the iron deficiency?


this is not a good idea


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Zapins, co2 can become toxic to AQUATIC plants at much much lesser concentration. Remember, water is on the order of 839x more dense than air. Density (and flow) of water is not something people think about when they compare toxicity symptoms of terrestrial and aquatic plants. Not even toxicity in general, actually, but deficiencies as well. I think it's impossible to get 10,000 ppm of co2 in water, and above 100ppm in the water will cause huge amounts of acid and drop ph to like 5.2 or something.

I have heard reports of co2 causing issues to plants above 100ppm co2. 

As for no deficiency symptom relating to low co2: It's all about what the plant was / is used to. A plant doing well in 3ppm co2 (no injection) won't show any signs of problems if upped to 30ppm. However a plant doing well at 30ppm and then introduced into 3ppm water will INDEED show outright problems included major twisting of the leaves, small and scraggly new growth, light green new growth, and destruction of the plant itself as it tries to adapt to lower sugar levels. 

IMO you should be running 20ppm no2 in your tank at all times. 5ppm is just too razor thin. I would add 10ppm 3x a week with a 50-60% water change weekly. 

I think what this guy needs to do is get on EI ferts bar none. Use iron as recommended (0.2 ppm 3 times a week) unless using a uv sterilizer. Do some major calculations when it comes to co2:

Take a sample of the water and put it in a small container. Shake the heck out of it. Let it sit for an hour. Shake it again. Let it sit. Shake it again. Goto bed. The next morning do not shake it again because the water is at equilibrium now with the air. Any further shaking will drive out gas. Test the pH of it using a calibrated digital ph probe. Use method #2 on this site: http://www.theaquatools.com/co2-calculations

Then measure kH and and use method #1 on this site. 

Take this data and ponder over it. Do they match up within +/- 5ppm? If not then something is going on. 
For instance, my pH and kH relationship (kh 2.5, ph 6.15) give me a co2 of 53ppm. Using the drop method I get 56ppm (24 hour aired out water is ph 7.6).

So really? I have ~53-56 ppm of co2 in the water? The plants are doing good and my fish...not dead? Not only are my fish not dead they are thriving. Hmmm...

Use the 3rd calculator on that page and put in 30ppm as desired co2. Use the generated pH and deduct .1 from it for safety.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

Zapins said:


> The iron and other nutrients in Fluorite are locked away where plants cannot get at them. The substrate is basically inert and provides no significant amount of nutrients to plants.
> 
> The best bet is to use a separate iron only supplement to provide iron and use CSM+B for providing the other micros.





happi said:


> listen to what Zapins have to say, he knows what he is talking about. i wouldn't add too much csm+b, IME i went up to 1ppm of Fe from csm+b per week without any issue, but i also have fast growing plants and high tech setup, in your case i suggest cutting it down to 0.5ppm per week from csm+b and you can dose 0.05- 0.1ppm of Fe from DTPA 3x week, which i think are in safe levels, i use this on my current setup and works fine, you can cut this in half and see how the plant respond. make sure you are doing 50% water changes otherwise we might have to cut out more of the Traces.





happi said:


> this is not a good idea


Thanks guys. Zapins, about separate dosing for CSM +B and iron, I'm definitely going to give that a try. The EI dosing calculator (http://calc.petalphile.com/) just gives the iron targets, which kinda implies to dose CSM+B until the iron concentration is satisfied. But looking at Seachem Flourish, if you follow the direction to dose the recommended amount 2x a week, you're still nowhere close to what the EI calculator is showing for the other micro nutrients. 

I've got a bag of EDTA from nilocg so I'll be dosing that. 

So in short, 30ml of my EI micro solution plus 0.5ppm of EDTA and 3x macros a week. I'll do a 50% water change tomorrow night and start this regimen on Saturday. I'll keep you guys posted. 

Thanks for all the help.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Positron - I enjoyed reading your post. You seem to favor an evidence based approach to the hobby which is a good way to go about find out what works and what does not work. I respect that.



Positron said:


> Zapins, co2 can become toxic to AQUATIC plants at much much lesser concentration.


I would be interested in reading your sources for this. From the studies I've read on terrestrial plants (granted not exactly the same conditions as submersed aquatic plants) concentrations of CO2 gas must be very high (10,000 ppm) to cause damage. Furthermore, while a large amount of CO2 can be contained in water as carbonic acid the amount of CO2 gas in the water is very small, far less than 10,000 ppm. Jalopy's question was specifically about CO2 gas harming java ferns. As far as I know, based on the research I've read (linked in my previous post) the toxicity level for the species of plant in the paper was 10,000 ppm. I do not know if carbonic acid can become toxic to plants, or what concentration it must be to become toxic. There are no papers on that as far as I've been able to find.



Positron said:


> Remember, water is on the order of 839x more dense than air. Density (and flow) of water is not something people think about when they compare toxicity symptoms of terrestrial and aquatic plants. Not even toxicity in general, actually, but deficiencies as well. I think it's impossible to get 10,000 ppm of co2 in water, and above 100ppm in the water will cause huge amounts of acid and drop ph to like 5.2 or something.


I also agree, I do not think you can get 10,000 ppm CO2 gas into water under normal tank conditions, which is why I do not believe toxicity to CO2 gas can occur in our tanks. Also, I think the lowest pH possible with CO2 is closer to 5.4 pH under normal tank conditions.



Positron said:


> I have heard reports of co2 causing issues to plants above 100ppm co2.


Again, I'd love to read these reports if you can find them again. This sort of thing greatly interests me and I like to keep track of these kinds threads for future reference.

From what I've read and discussed with other people CO2 toxicity seems unlikely.

Starting at post 224 UDGags asks about CO2 toxicity and we discuss it over the next page or two:
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/89126-organics-analysis-23.html

My reply to his question: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/algae/89126-organics-analysis-24.html#post669778



Positron said:


> As for no deficiency symptom relating to low co2: It's all about what the plant was / is used to. A plant doing well in 3ppm co2 (no injection) won't show any signs of problems if upped to 30ppm. However a plant doing well at 30ppm and then introduced into 3ppm water will INDEED show outright problems included major twisting of the leaves, small and scraggly new growth, light green new growth, and destruction of the plant itself as it tries to adapt to lower sugar levels.


I have heard this general idea before on various forums. The problem with this statement is that most of these examples can be easily and definitively identified as a lack of other nutrients - all of which are completely unrelated to CO2. CO2 has become somewhat of a gray zone in the hobby which people like to blame for all kinds of plant damage. 

In addition. I have looked through several research databases for CO2 deficiency symptoms and toxicities and there is precious little info on the topic especially for CO2 deficiency symptoms. All other nutrient deficiencies are well documented and the symptoms in many species are well known, CO2 is not quite the same. The few papers and other sources where CO2 is known to be virtually absent from a plant's environment strongly support the idea that plants do not deteriorate when CO2 is absent. They simply stop growing and remain the same size and shape until CO2 is replenished. 

Furthermore, another compelling line of evidence is biogenic decalcification - a process that certain plant species are capable of doing allowing certain plant species to use carbonates and bicarbonates in the water as a CO2 source when dissolved CO2 gas is absent. Since this is energetically costly to the plant this pathway is not normally used when there is enough environmental CO2. The tel-tale sign of biogenic decalcification is white calcium build up on the surface of leaves. The calcium deposits are therefore a clear indicator that CO2 is absent from the environment. When plants show the white calcium build up on their leaves they show no deterioration in new or old growth and neither do other species in the same tank that cannot carryout this process to obtain CO2. 

Taken collectively these lines of evidence all support what I've read and ultimately the final conclusion that CO2 deficiency is a symptomless problem.

If you know of any published papers, or controlled experiments that show other evidence please let me know. Until then it seems the argument for symptomless CO2 deficiencies is much more compelling.



Positron said:


> IMO you should be running 20ppm no2 in your tank at all times. 5ppm is just too razor thin. I would add 10ppm 3x a week with a 50-60% water change weekly.


Again, I agree. 5 ppm for NO*3* is definitely walking the razor's edge. Plants are capable of absorbing 5 ppm in a day or two under the right conditions. It is much safer to raise the NO3 concentration to 20 ppm as you say.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

At what ppm is CO2 toxic to aquatic plants? 
You'd kill all your fish long long before this could even get close.

the Blackened Java fern leaves, this is a transition and shows what happened in the past, adding more CO2 will not help recover those leaves, they are toast and lost.

Trim them off. 
If the CO2 is good, you have moderate to low light, the ferns will recover and send out nice new leaves and fill back in nicely. If you have high light like some of my tanks, as long as you have good CO2, this is not an issue either.

Let's get one thing straight here about CO2:
BBA, Blackened leaves, stunted tips, gasping/stressed fish = these NEVER lie.
CO2 test? these can always lie.

So use them with a relative importance, not.......... as say........ some absolute thing. Eyeballs can tell you more than a test kit. Newbies lack some observational experience, but you can see what other nice tanks look like.

You can use say the pH/Kh CO2 method and then slowly adjust and tweak the CO2 up from there, being CAREFUL to closely observe between each small tiny adjustment.

this might take 4-12 weeks, so if you start a new tank, by the time things have grown in and you add fish, it should be dialed in nicely. Water changes will mitigate CO2 issues, particularly if you do them in the start of the light cycle, say 1 hour in.

If the growth and health improves a great deal with say 2-3x water changes a week vs say once every 1-2 weeks, then you have a pretty good indication that it is a CO2 issue.

Ferts can be all over the place if the CO2 is correctly dialed in.
Same with the light.

Still, lower light is the key for most folk's goals, yet they buy high light. 
CO2 is going to be different for each and every tank. There's no real set ideal ppm for all planted aquariums. 30 ppm is just a starting point. Relative pH drop tends to be a good method using a pH meter. This has assumptions also.

Some tanks might be okay with 20 ppm, another tank might need 45 ppm.
Drop checkers suck well digger toes.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Here's what happens to my Ludwigia red if I stop CO2 for a 1/2 day and then another 1/2 day before I caught it:

Tips are curled back and showing signs something is not right. They should be wide, flat and broad. This will recover, but if you did it for another say, 2-3 days, then it would not. Very high light will respond much faster to issues than low light/non CO2 methods.

Growth is 20X faster after all.
So management/dosing/CO2 will need more tending.
Sort of obvious if you think about it, but many miss this holistic view and assume all tank are the same, even though in the back of their mind they know all about this at some level. 

I simply did not catch the CO2 gas tank running out. Perhaps you have a crack in one of the fittings, or a leak somewhere, or too much degassing to keep up with the tank's needs, or not enough O2 and thus any CO2 added gasses the fish because respiration is both CO2 and O2.............or poor current.......or you think CO2 is fine because your drop says so and is green. 
All common mistakes. 

Now most of the other plants did not respond like this plant, so it's my canary in the coal mine so to speak for CO2, Riccia pearling is another good one for that. And this was maybe just for a day or two.
Chronic CO2 issues will effect most plants, help algae etc.
Some of those tips will not recover, same with some of those leaves, they are lost, so trim them, fix the issue and move on. New side shoots will form and you will get nice new growth thereafter. Till something else goes wrong:wink:


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## fablau (Feb 7, 2009)

Those are great useful tips Tom! Thank you!


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Drop checkers suck well digger toes.


I am so stealing this for future use,
with the proper attribution, of course 


You can tell people: check your co2, check your circulation, check your surface agitation, clean your tank, do WCs until you are blue in the face and they still suck well digger toes, as per Tom Barr. Purrrfict.


You got algae? Go suck well digger toes, advised Tom Barr.

Happy Friday, all.
v3


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