# aeration in a planted tank



## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Aeration is good 24/7. Fish, plants, bacteria, they all love O2. Yes, it will drive off some CO2 but you just have to increase your injection rate a bit to compensate. I'd not use a bubbler during the day, for aesthetic reasons, unless it was absolutely necessary, but you can use it when lights are off and no one's looking . During the day just use your filter outlet, circulation pump, powerhead or whatever to agitate the surface well, have a really good ripple, just no splashing or white water.


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## phantom85 (Aug 23, 2011)

i have a air stone in my tank ready to use. i only ever turn the pump on if i see the fish at the surface gasping for air, other then that its usually a good thing to leave it off


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Since you don't have co2 injection, I don't think you can have to much aeration or surface agitation. There is co2 in the air also, so by causing larger interfaces between the water and air, is not only going to cause your o2 levels to stay where the should be, but will also keep your co2 levels from falling during peak photosynthesis.


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## Soujirou (Jun 16, 2008)

I'd just follow Jeff's last suggestion. I don't think you have to worry about "losing" CO2 because you don't have much organic matter decomposing in your substrate.

Plus surface agitation can reduce any possible biofilm that develops. An airstone will not do that very well. It will also save you one piece of equipment.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Soujirou said:


> I'd just follow Jeff's last suggestion. I don't think you have to worry about "losing" CO2 because you don't have much organic matter decomposing in your substrate.
> 
> Plus surface agitation can reduce any possible biofilm that develops. An airstone will not do that very well. It will also save you one piece of equipment.


airstones break it up very very well...

also organic matter adds c02 and uses oxygen.. a good surface ripple is good for any tank, c02 added or not.. it adds oxygen which keeps fish happy and bacteria happy. and a happy filter is usually a fairly clean and algae free tank.


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## Aquaticfan (Oct 30, 2011)

Jeff5614 said:


> Aeration is good 24/7. Fish, plants, bacteria, they all love O2. Yes, it will drive off some CO2 but you just have to increase your injection rate a bit to compensate. I'd not use a bubbler during the day, for aesthetic reasons, unless it was absolutely necessary, but you can use it when lights are off and no one's looking . During the day just use your filter outlet, circulation pump, powerhead or whatever to agitate the surface well, have a really good ripple, just no splashing or white water.










HD Blazingwolf said:


> airstones break it up very very well...
> 
> also organic matter adds c02 and uses oxygen.. a good surface ripple is good for any tank, c02 added or not.. it adds oxygen which keeps fish happy and bacteria happy. and a happy filter is usually a fairly clean and algae free tank.


Everything Jeff and HD said are spot on and I agree with 100%. 

sent from my HTC EVO 3d


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

thanks guys for your input. defintely steering me in the right direction. i may invest in an airpump

jeff i was thinking about only using the air pump at night as well since i like how it sounds (helps me sleep haha) and also for the same reason that you do it now. 
and HD about the surface ripple, right now since my air pump broke (i still can't figure out why but i returned it) i lift my canister outflow above the water so that it creates some surface agitation. most of the time, i leave the nozzle below the water so that i dont disturb the frogbit on the surface. if the nozzle is below the surface is there enough surface disturbance still? i see very small ripples but not much.


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

also another question. which air pump is the quietest to you guys? i looked up some on amazon or other sites and read the reviews. apparently the tetra whisper are very quiet and the rena air pumps are also? at my LFS, i was looking at aquaclear as well as fusion and marina. any suggestions on what you guys use? will the size matter for the pumps? like i have a 40 gallon tank so would i have to purchase a pump that is rated for a 40 gallon tank? silly question but just want to make sure


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

pandamonium said:


> thanks guys for your input. defintely steering me in the right direction. i may invest in an airpump
> 
> jeff i was thinking about only using the air pump at night as well since i like how it sounds (helps me sleep haha) and also for the same reason that you do it now.
> and HD about the surface ripple, right now since my air pump broke (i still can't figure out why but i returned it) i lift my canister outflow above the water so that it creates some surface agitation. most of the time, i leave the nozzle below the water so that i dont disturb the frogbit on the surface. if the nozzle is below the surface is there enough surface disturbance still? i see very small ripples but not much.


I don't have any recent experience with an air pump so maybe someone else might have some info on a quiet one. You could always create another thread in the equipment forum for opinions on air pumps or try a search and see what you find. 

As with most things in a heavily planted tank, which is your goal, you might go a bit larger with the pump than you initially think. Most ratings for pumps, filters, etc. that are used with freshwater tanks are made with fish only tanks in mind. Dense plantings really cut into water flow so you'll find you need filters and pumps that move flow. You might give thought to something like a Hydor Koralia in place of an air pump and bubbler. You can use it to agitate the surface and it's going to create better flow in your tank than airstones. You can run it 24/7 without being concerned how it looks. Of course you mentioned floating plants so it may not be so good with those and you like the sound of the bubbler at night, but it's just something to consider. If you were interested in a Koralia, the 245 gph nano in combination with your current filter would probably be good for a 40 gallon tank and cost no more than a good air pump.


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## TwoTacoCombo (Apr 13, 2012)

Jeff5614 said:


> You might give thought to something like a Hydor Koralia in place of an air pump and bubbler. You can use it to agitate the surface and it's going to create better flow in your tank than airstones. You can run it 24/7 without being concerned how it looks. Of course you mentioned floating plants so it may not be so good with those and you like the sound of the bubbler at night, but it's just something to consider. If you were interested in a Koralia, the 245 gph nano in combination with your current filter would probably be good for a 40 gallon tank and cost no more than a good air pump.


I've got a Koralia 240 in my 50gal tank, and it definitely boosts the flow. There are some drawbacks though. My tank is fairly new, and not everything is firmly rooted. The flow is so great that it floated some plants, and caused others to shift diagonally in the substrate. It'll also tear the roots right off of frogbit if they're long enough and the pump is high enough in the tank. It's also nearly impossible to point the thing up towards the surface, as the power cord is rather stiff and wants to push the unit down. In an established tank, it would be awesome to get that mosh pit circular flow going around your tank, but I've taken to using my Eheim multi-sectioned spray bar for surface ripple. I'll point 2 of the sections slightly down from the water line, and one up towards it to get some serious agitation without splashing. Then I use the 240 once a day for about a minute to stir up the settled crap and get it back in line for a run to the filter intake. As soon as everything roots, it'll be back on full time.


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## JasonG75 (Mar 1, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> a good surface ripple is good for any tank, c02 added or not..


 
^^^^this, Ripples is all you want


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

Jeff5614 said:


> I don't have any recent experience with an air pump so maybe someone else might have some info on a quiet one. You could always create another thread in the equipment forum for opinions on air pumps or try a search and see what you find.
> 
> As with most things in a heavily planted tank, which is your goal, you might go a bit larger with the pump than you initially think. Most ratings for pumps, filters, etc. that are used with freshwater tanks are made with fish only tanks in mind. Dense plantings really cut into water flow so you'll find you need filters and pumps that move flow. You might give thought to something like a Hydor Koralia in place of an air pump and bubbler. You can use it to agitate the surface and it's going to create better flow in your tank than airstones. You can run it 24/7 without being concerned how it looks. Of course you mentioned floating plants so it may not be so good with those and you like the sound of the bubbler at night, but it's just something to consider. If you were interested in a Koralia, the 245 gph nano in combination with your current filter would probably be good for a 40 gallon tank and cost no more than a good air pump.





TwoTacoCombo said:


> I've got a Koralia 240 in my 50gal tank, and it definitely boosts the flow. There are some drawbacks though. My tank is fairly new, and not everything is firmly rooted. The flow is so great that it floated some plants, and caused others to shift diagonally in the substrate. It'll also tear the roots right off of frogbit if they're long enough and the pump is high enough in the tank. It's also nearly impossible to point the thing up towards the surface, as the power cord is rather stiff and wants to push the unit down. In an established tank, it would be awesome to get that mosh pit circular flow going around your tank, but I've taken to using my Eheim multi-sectioned spray bar for surface ripple. I'll point 2 of the sections slightly down from the water line, and one up towards it to get some serious agitation without splashing. Then I use the 240 once a day for about a minute to stir up the settled crap and get it back in line for a run to the filter intake. As soon as everything roots, it'll be back on full time.


thanks guys  yep i searched the equipment forum for opinions on air pumps and the tetra whisper seemed to come out on top consistently. i may look into getting one of those. i looked up this hydor korelia. is it like a powerhead? im not too familiar with this kind of equipment. i like the idea because it seems like it would agitate the water enough. would it be adjustable? like twotaco mentioned, his plants get uprooted sometimes and i have pennywort that i just rooted in the substrate. apparently the plant is notorious for uprooting itself and floating again. i wanted to use the spraybar idea to keep the water current flowing but i have the ecco 2232 and apparently this series has issues with a spraybar. others have had the motor burn out because the back pressure was too much so i dont think i can use a spraybar on my tank. though this really does interest me if i could find amodel that points upwards or is lower power.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

as to the question directed at me. aim the output up if u can. or move it up.. imagine a lake with about a 10 degree wind
or a slow moving stream that has rocks. in a tank that is enclosed having a small wave type event on suface is good. i'll grab ya a picture later on of my 10 gallon. its a perfect example. its best to judge the ripple by looking UP from in the tank. looking at the surface can be a bi decieving.

the more ripple u can get WITHOUT breaking the surface, the better. ur generating surface area
this is why i run a wet dry sump now. i have little suface agitation for the top of my tank, but the overflow box, drain pipe, and wet/dry section provide lots of surface to air contact 

a koralia works great, the are efficient quite little buggers that do exactly what they state.. THEY will agitate te surface but i've found with experience they don't turnover the wate that well at the surface. its like they recirculate the same top layer over and over and don't get down low.. they work but not my first choice


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## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

I think we have forgotten that plants produce o2 while lights are on, I have surface ripples because I love lots of flow but because of how healthy my plants are my fish don't actually need it, the plants handle it, the agitation would be great at night though


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

shrimpNewbie said:


> I think we have forgotten that plants produce o2 while lights are on, I have surface ripples because I love lots of flow but because of how healthy my plants are my fish don't actually need it, the plants handle it, the agitation would be great at night though


plants add very little oxygen actually to a tank, and they actually use very little c02
increasing water surface to air contact is the most efficient way to add oxygen..


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

i actually read a thread on here that was trying to do an experiment to see if CO2 concentrations in water were greater than atmospheric CO2 concentrations, which i guess would be due to CO2 solubility. the goal of the expeirment was to try to establish whether or not air pumps should be used in the event that their bubbling would cause excess good CO2 to leave (in nonplanted tanks). my initial thought was that equilibration should maintain everything fairly evenly but im not sure. i have a theory which is long and convoluted haha but back to the point, really interested in that experiment. hopefully they keep up with it. 
in the meantime, i think i will buy an air pump to run probably from dusk until before dawn just to make sure CO2 levels arent too high. reason for til pre-dawn is because i think the plants will need CO2 for their next day of photosynthesis.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

The c02 equilibirum for water is 2-3 ppm on average given water temperature and surface area for that body of water.

Surface area is what allows gas to dissolve into the water, due to partial pressure. Its also relative to the amount of atmospheric c02. The level in an aquarium without c02 injection is fffaaaarrr less than atmospheric c02.


Airstones dont add c02 because they are ridding the nitrogen gas bubble which has almost no solubility


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> The c02 equilibirum for water is 2-3 ppm on average given water temperature and surface area for that body of water.
> 
> Surface area is what allows gas to dissolve into the water, due to partial pressure. Its also relative to the amount of atmospheric c02. The level in an aquarium without c02 injection is fffaaaarrr less than atmospheric c02.
> 
> ...


yep i came across that value in that experimental thread. but what i did not know is that CO2 in aquarium is far less than CO2 in the atmosphere. my goal with the air pump is to reduce the amount of CO2 in the aquarium from decaying matter and such (and also to remove that biofilm-like layer). so would airstones do that? rid excess CO2?


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## brogan (Jan 16, 2012)

TwoTacoCombo said:


> I've got a Koralia 240 in my 50gal tank, and it definitely boosts the flow. There are some drawbacks though....... It's also nearly impossible to point the thing up towards the surface, as the power cord is rather stiff and wants to push the unit down.


I have the same problem. Does anyone have any creative solutions to get the Koralia to point upwards more?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

turn it sideways it will point more up then


airstone do create lots of surface agitation and the pull water from the bottom if u set them there. they are excellent for continuing gas exchagne across the water surface, and breakup up the surface film.
the kicker to film is, the bubbles pop. watch the rim of the tank and wipe it as frequently as possible. the scum will form on the rim if u let it, its hard to get off too

c02 atmospheric levels are in the 350 ppm range ON average around the world
in a home around 780 ppm
in a classroom full of people, 5000 ppm it starts becomming stressfull to the respiratory system at about 7000ppm for some people. the lethal limit is around 15000 ppm depending on current oxygen levels


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

ok i like the idea of using an airstone to break up the film. i think that i will do is purchase one and use it for a certain time at night. that way i can somewhat regulate the amount of CO2 and keep it not too high but not release enough that plants growth is stunted.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Before i went to a sump i had an air pump on a timer. Lights went out pump went on. When c02 came on. Pump went off

And again u dont have c02 injection. Airstone will create surface agitation which will increase c02 levels. Airstones only off gas c02 if ur directly injecting it'd


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

yeah that is my plan. i looked up some pumps and i think the tetra whispers were the quietest so ill probably look into some of those.


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## benjaminleebates (Mar 27, 2012)

I've been decreasing my water agitation, from the beginning. I began with a 12 inch air stone and a piece of decor that bubbled. After reading from other posts, and PMing, the conclusion was that my "hanging" over the back filter probably moved the water plenty and the air stones were counter productive to my Co2 injecting. So, a couple days ago, I turned down the bubbling decoration to just a little bit.
Is it possible that too much bubbling can out gas oxygen, too?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it will nto outgas oxygen

the msot efficient wa to introduce oxygen to a body of water is increasing water to air surface area.. bubblers do tha very well

excess bubbles waste lots of c02.. a small amount of bubbles wont do harm though


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Lots of confusion about this.

Although CO2 concentrations in air and water are both measured in ppm, because of the differing densities of the two mediums, the scale is different by a factor of 1,000.

To determine equilibrium, you have to divide the ppm in air by 1,000. If air has 343ppm CO2, equilibrium in water is 0.343ppm.

Indoor air is a bit higher in CO2 because it accumulates from our exhalations. Best estimate for an indoor environment is an CO2 equilibrium in water of 0.5ppm.

So where does this 2-3ppm figure quoted by HD Blazingwolf come from? I asked about that long ago, and apparently it's from a single experiment with a drop checker; using a reference solution with much lower than the standard 4°KH in order to lower the measurement range.

But that experiment was severely flawed. A drop checker doesn't have anywhere near the accuracy to measure such low CO2 levels. And with a low KH reference solution, the accuracy of a drop checker is further skewed by the pH of _the pH indicator drops themselves_; which are not neutral, but alkaline. That's why they come out of the bottle blue - they're detecting their own pH! I've done experiments with low range drop checkers, and using only one drop of pH indicator instead of three made the difference between green and blue with a constant, real CO2 level.

The 2-3ppm figure gets repeated over and over in this hobby nonetheless. And in this hobby alone. Search any other scientific literature and you won't find such claims, but numbers more in line with what I gave - a mere 0.5ppm.

This means that a relatively small amount of additional CO2 from fish respiration or decomposing organics really could raise the CO2 level in a tank, especially at lights on when it's had a chance to accumulate overnight.

I tried running several tanks with and without aerators. All were heavily fish-stocked, but with inert substrate and little decomposing matter. No Excel or CO2 injection. Plants seemed to grow very slightly better without an aerator than with, but the difference was so small that I can't say for sure. Fish didn't care one way or another, no changes in behavior or tendency to hang around the surface were observed at any time.

In the end, I got rid of the aerators. Since they provided no benefit in my case, I saw no need to maintain and power the extra equipment. If however I need to break up surface scum, have low oxygen, or even just like the appearance of bubbles; I'll have no objection to putting them back. I typically use Excel (Metricide 14), and even the small amount of CO2 it provides makes any differences due to aeration completely insignificant.

And yes, _technically_ aeration can outgas oxygen; but _only_ when the water has higher concentration than equilibrum with the atmosphere. Which is far more than fish or plants need. So it's more accurate to say that _in practice_, aeration will never outgas _needed oxygen_.


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

thanks darkcobra that cleared things up a lot  in that case then, ill probably only use the aerator to break surface scum when i need to. since my outflow is below the surface of the water, i dont have any rippling, which i guess is good for the frogbit i have floating. 
and is this excel (metricide 14), a kind of fertilizer?


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Excel contains a chemical called glutaraldehyde. It's actually toxic, and most of the world uses it as a medical disinfectant. But most living things have to protect themselves completely against low levels of it. In a happy coincidence, plants just happen to do it by breaking it down into a bit of CO2; providing a noticeable boost in plant growth over a tank with no CO2 addition. Since this CO2 is produced and is consumed directly in the plant tissue, it can't be lost with aeration either.

The amount of CO2 you can get from it is limited. Increasing dosage eventually overwhelms protective mechanisms, and it starts acting like a toxin again. But in another happy coincidence, the first thing to be affected by overdoses are certain types of algae; making a controlled overdose useful for the occasional cleanup.

Although there are some exceptions. Anacharis, hornwort, and some particularly delicate shrimp have problems with even the recommended dose. Vals may initially melt, then bounce back; as they have little protection to start with, but can adapt with time. I suggest you read up on all the nuances if you're interested in trying it.

Metricide 14 is the same chemical, labeled for medical disinfection and at 2.6% concentration, instead of for aquarium use like Excel at 1.5%. Skip adding the "activator" from a separate bottle, and cut it with an equal amount of distilled water. You end up with two gallons of a solution almost identical to Excel, but for a fraction of the price you'd pay for that much real Excel.


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## pandamonium (May 14, 2012)

hmm thats interesting. i would try it but given that i havent used a product like that before, i may just stay away from it to prevent me from nuking my tank. once i get more comfortable with all that i may decide to try it if algae grows rampant. right now i just have some brown spot algae/diatoms that should deal with themselves. if not ill get otos in this tank, they did a wonder on my other tank.


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