# Massive Tetra Die off



## The Bungulo (Aug 28, 2017)

What was the PH? I keep my tetras at neutral to acidic, as they need acidic water. Hard or alkaline water is bad for tetras.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I'm sorry for your losses.

You need to get a hardness test kit.

Amazon.com : API GH & KH TEST KIT Freshwater Aquarium Water Test Kit : Aquarium Test Kits : Pet Supplies

These are all soft water fish and if your water has a ton of minerals, they may not do well. If your tap water is really hard, you may need an RODI system if you want success with those fish. OTH, your water might really suit African Cichlids.

There could also be some other stressors like a ping/ponging pH from CO2 on/off cycle. (I could see my keyholes were stressed until I went to 24/7 Co2 and figured out how to _really_ aerate the water.)

I'm guessing that there is an O2 deficiency (all the plants suck it up at night), coupled with pH swings, and possibly hard water. There may not be a disease, stress and pain could be causing the fish to "give up".

You seem to have a pretty big fish budget, so just for kicks, you could pick up one of the UV sterilizers like I got from Amazon. (SunSun) It moves a good bit of water and adds a ton of air. It also kills bacteria so it certainly won't make your situation worse.

Personally, I think you need to put up a "hazard warning" sign on your front glass to remind you not to add any more fish until you get the water sorted. Sometimes buying things makes us feel momentarily better, but if animals are dying or your CC is getting loaded up, its better to resist.

I am so conservative, my Neons have been in the QT for two months now.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Neons and cardinals have been weakened badly by breeding techniques. I had similar losses as you, to the point where I was buying three times what I wanted, hoping a third would survive. I finally found a way to acclimate them so that I lose 1 or 2 and often none at all.

First, shame on you for disobeying the quarantine tank rule. My method does require a QT.

I drip acclimate over a two-three hour period (refilling once or twice in between). However, I use a QT and I add RODI water to it. You could buy distilled water at $1 / gal in the grocery store. When I get the fish home, I test the GH and KH of the LFS water and then match that exactly in the QT. KH won’t be exact for about 24 hours since CO2 needs to be absorbed and acidify the water. That also puts the TDS into the range of the TDS of the LFS water. TDS is comprised of more solids than those measured by GH and KH, such as having potassium, etc., but the tap water used by most LFS will be mainly GH and KH components. 

Add Purigen to the filter to remove nasty organics.

Every third day do the following: Perform a 20% water change. Set KH to that of the main tank and reduce GH by 3 dGH with each water change until main tank GH is reached. If ammonia climbs, add Seachem’s Prime. It is the only ammonia neutralizer that won’t harm the bacteria colony. 

I watch the fish, for signs of disease, for about two weeks before transferring them.


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## Nlewis (Dec 1, 2015)

Ok just stop. There’s a giant misconception that certain fish like neon or cardinal tetras need specific water parameters. Most of all the fish that are purchased from LFS’s or big box stores are line breed fish. If these were wild caught fish I could understand but they most likely are not. 3 different species of fish are dropping like flies in his tank and it’s not because they require soft acidic water. There’s something going on in the tank like a bacteria infection. @Zapins just sent him 3 female apistos and I bet they were as healthy as can be when he got them. There’s a disease or infection floating around in that tank.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Cardinals are often wild caught but can still be delicate when new. They are one of the fish that over the years have been the most responsible for mass die off of fish in my tanks when I have tried to add a few more to bolster their numbers. The new ones die and take everyone else with them. My standard advice when people want a large school of them is to get the number you want right from the start. If you want to add to them later it is advisable to use a quarantine tank rather than adding them directly to the tank. 

Really you should quarantine everything you add but if you are like me and don't have a big house with room for lots of quarantine tanks that can obviously be difficult. 

Anyway despite the risks associated with cardinals I will always keep them. They are by far my favorite fish. And the last two batches I got were sturdy and I didn't have any problems with them.


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## CT_Ram (Sep 10, 2017)

Cardinal tetras are most likely wild caught, they are indeed sensitive. In the wild they live in really low PH where very few bacteria live. They easily pick infections when moved to a new environment (strees) and exposed to bacteria that do not bother other fish more used to that. Once I heard a discus breeder saying cardinal tetras are as delicate as discus, only that if a discus dies you notice cause is x00$ and if a cardinal dies no one cares.
Neons are plagued by neon tetra disease that has no treatment. It is a gamble to get some. Sometimes they are ok sometimes the whole batch will die.

You can check Aquarium co-op videos and their quarantine method. They comment on entire shipments of cardinals dying when he does not treat them with I think erythromycin. I never used it but I would not doubt it helps. In the LFS I go to they commented the same. That some shipments will die if not given antibiotics. They told me they lose a lot of cardinals and rummynose when they get them. You can be lucky and have a store that quarantines them and takes the losses or treats them.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Nlewis said:


> Ok just stop. There’s a giant misconception that certain fish like neon or cardinal tetras need specific water parameters. Most of all the fish that are purchased from LFS’s or big box stores are line breed fish. If these were wild caught fish I could understand but they most likely are not. 3 different species of fish are dropping like flies in his tank and it’s not because they require soft acidic water. There’s something going on in the tank like a bacteria infection. @Zapins just sent him 3 female apistos and I bet they were as healthy as can be when he got them. There’s a disease or infection floating around in that tank.


You could be right on the disease, which reinforces the QT concept, but water parameters solved a persistent problem for me. Note that I did not say to create soft water. I said to match the QT water to the container that currently holds the fish.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

My latest cardinal tanks initially when I got them about 3 years ago I was keeping them in fairly hard water (I think KH and GH of my tap are in the 15-18 degree range). While I did lose some over the years they seem to do OK. Now though at 3 years old they haven't really achieved the size that cardinals are capable of. I suspect that is mostly to do with some periods of time where I did not do water changes as often as I should. But I wonder if hardness impacts them in some way as well.

Now for that particular tank I buy in RO water and keep the tank at about 3-5 degrees KH and GH.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

This is a really basic question, but I have to ask. When you added the fish did you shut off the co2?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> This is a really basic question, but I have to ask. When you added the fish did you shut off the co2?


Yes C02 shuts off at 3pm, lights shut off at 4pm, added the fish after a 2 hour drip acclimation at about 6pm.


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## requiem (Oct 25, 2008)

Hmm did you do your water change any differently? I lost a bunch of tetras (Congos mostly but a few Cardinals) a few weeks ago because I used my python as I've always done, connected straight to tap. Never lost fish to it before. But it seems my tetras were sensitive to it.

Now I bought a giant contained where I 'age' the water for a few days. The die-offs stopped. Too much gas in the fresh water can apparently impact their gills. Of course it could be a coincidence and caused by a bacteria. But the tetras were from a reputable LFS; I had never lost any of their fish before in over 10 years (except from my own n00b mistakes of course)


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

requiem said:


> Hmm did you do your water change any differently? I lost a bunch of tetras (Congos mostly but a few Cardinals) a few weeks ago because I used my python as I've always done, connected straight to tap. Never lost fish to it before. But it seems my tetras were sensitive to it.
> 
> Now I bought a giant contained where I 'age' the water for a few days. The die-offs stopped. Too much gas in the fresh water can apparently impact their gills. Of course it could be a coincidence and caused by a bacteria. But the tetras were from a reputable LFS; I had never lost any of their fish before in over 10 years (except from my own n00b mistakes of course)


Yeah I have been posting this all over the place. Congo tetras seem to be particularly susceptible to gas bubble disease which is caused by over saturation of gasses in the water. Most frequently caused by adding water to the tank straight from the tap via a Python or other hose. It is especially bad if the water from the tap is a bit colder than the water in the tank. 

Other weakened tetras can be hit by it as well but it seems to really be rough on even healthy Congos (all the different species of Congo tetra). I lost a few fish over the past few years since owning the Python but didn't realize the reason. A few months ago I lost about a dozen fish. Now I age the water overnight as well and heat and aerate it before it goes in the tank. I have not noticed cardinals being especially sensitive to it unless they are already on the way out though but I try to avoid adding water straight from the tap in all my tanks now.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

The Dude1 said:


> I have always wanted a couple big tanks with apisto's and a large school of tetras... preferably cardinals and Rummynose as I have Emporers in another tank right above them. I added 12 Cardinals and 8 rummynose. Within a week I lost 1 of each. Added 5 more Cardinals and 2 Rummynose (all they had) lost one of each. Then this week (Saturday) added 8 Cardinals and last 2 Rummynose. I also added 3 Panda Corys to the top tank. I did lose my pair of Apisto Caucatoides in the top tank this week, but no other losses. Ive got 20+ Emporers in there that I added from the same source and only lost a couple to early cycling issues. Water change yesterday. Since then I have lost at least 10 Cardinals and 5 Rummynose. I also found ALL 3 of the female Apisto's dead that I added Wed that were doing awesome. Tanks have been up for several months (log below). I moved some crypts around and added some driftwood last night.
> Ammonia 0
> Nitrite 0
> Nitrate 5ppm
> ...


According to what has been posted you added approx. 20 fish at one go?
Were the reading's you posted for ammonia and nitrite before or after water change?
Did you add any dechlorinator to holding bucket during drip acclimation?
I would consider the gas(CO2) or ammonia spike as culprits for such rapid death's not withstanding what has been posted.
Also might wonder about fishes placed in new environment and their ability to adapt to the new level's of CO2,dissolved organic's,fertz, followed by a large water change a day or two later.
Would want to perform large water change out in front of placing new fishes in the tank(day before) so that they might have a week to further adapt to the water (see osmoregulatory functions of fishes) before next water change is due.
Would dial lighting back along with CO2 when placing new fishes in the tank and increase the CO2 level's slowly up to previous level's over a week.
The tetra's mentioned are not noted for hardiness so anything we can do to allow them to slowly adapt to our tanks can only help.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Nlewis said:


> Ok just stop. There’s a giant misconception that certain fish like neon or cardinal tetras need specific water parameters. Most of all the fish that are purchased from LFS’s or big box stores are line breed fish. If these were wild caught fish I could understand but they most likely are not. 3 different species of fish are dropping like flies in his tank and it’s not because they require soft acidic water. There’s something going on in the tank like a bacteria infection. @Zapins just sent him 3 female apistos and I bet they were as healthy as can be when he got them. There’s a disease or infection floating around in that tank.


Cardinals are almost ALL wild caught, and they along with rummy nose do indeed perform better/longer in softer water as opposed to hard water.(many other's also)
If we try and keep soft water species in more alkaline water's,then this is just one more difficulty for fishes to try and overcome along with often times uber lighting,CO2 perhaps too much to quickly,fertz which increase TDS sharply,possibly low O2(oxygen level's) at night,temp's outside their comfort levels, and thing's begin to become too much.
Most pathogens do not kill as quickly as what has been posted.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

When I had mass die off of new cardinal tetras added to established tanks in the past I always assumed it was because of possible high nitrates in the existing tank impacting fish that were already stressed from transport. Though to be honest this was so long ago I don't know how high they were. But I remember coming to that conclusion and I assume that means I had gone for a while without a water change before adding them. 

I have not any kind of die off adding them to a newer tank with hard water that was better maintained with low nitrates. Instead they tended to slowly die off one by one over long periods of time. But I have no way of knowing for sure if this is due to the hard water or some other water parameters. They are small fish and small fish can sometimes all be perfectly happy for years or sometimes they gradually diminish in numbers for no obvious reason. When you have them in large numbers sometimes you don't even know when it happened (unless you are really anal and do a count every week!).


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The Dude1 said:


> Yes C02 shuts off at 3pm, lights shut off at 4pm, added the fish after a 2 hour drip acclimation at about 6pm.


That's good, but as @roadmaster was alluding to it's always easing them in over the course of at least a few days. If it was busines as usual with the co2 the following days it could have been too much for them. Had to be something really basic to life if so many fish and different species died. It wasn't just sensitive cardinals.


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## drewzaun (Sep 13, 2015)

I just had a school of serpae tetras die off in less than a week, they’d been in the system for about 14 months. No new fish added, all testable parameters are constant. I was changing water every 3 days till I rescaped 2 weeks ago, so the system is always the same. 

I did wait an extra day, as the day after one change the town flushed the hydrants in my neighborhood, so I waited an extra day to be safe. Perhaps something was in the water that Prime didn’t cover?

Otherwise I’ve heard of this before, but no one has answers. With the internet you hear things from all over the world instead of town, so I’ve heard of tetra schools dieing off for no apparent reason with nothing else being affected, sort of like porpoise breaching? I wonder if tetras can release an enzyme or hormone that triggers a mass kill? I’ve read something about massive insect kills and bird kills with no apparent reason too. 

Personally I’d keep a close eye on the system, keep your parameters stable, and if no one else has a problem after a month or two then drive on.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

The Bungulo said:


> What was the PH? I keep my tetras at neutral to acidic, as they need acidic water. Hard or alkaline water is bad for tetras.


there is variation. Mid day it is 6.6 or so. I'm not sure what it degasses to


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I will not be adding anymore fish until I get a QT set up. Lost 1 cardinal and 1 Rummynose overnight. I will also get a kh gh test kit. I have a Sunsun sterilizer on the tank and turning it on last night. Should have turned it on when I added new fish. 

I can take the mature sponge out of my shrimp tanks and replace it with a new one (also has a 2213)
What temp for the QT Tank? Use a portion of RO water to get tank Water as close to their tanks as possible. Should I also do a round of general cure or erythromycin? How long do I QT? Is it ok if the qt tank is bare with no lights? Put some plants or something in there? Given the limits on my QT tank (10 gallons) I would assume I'm limited to one school at a time? I would like to add about 20 of each.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I will not be adding anymore fish until I get a QT set up. Lost 1 cardinal and 1 Rummynose overnight. I will also get a kh gh test kit. I have a Sunsun sterilizer on the tank and turning it on last night. Should have turned it on when I added new fish.
> 
> I can take the mature sponge out of my shrimp tanks and replace it with a new one (also has a 2213)
> What temp for the QT Tank? Use a portion of RO water to get tank Water as close to their tanks as possible. Should I also do a round of general cure or erythromycin? How long do I QT? Is it ok if the qt tank is bare with no lights? Put some plants or something in there? Given the limits on my QT tank (10 gallons) I would assume I'm limited to one school at a time? I would like to add about 20 of each.


This is all good. 

I added 40 Neons to my 10g QT and it stirred alot of controversy. 38 of them survived for a month, but there was always a tiny bit of lingering ick, despite frequent water changes and gravel vac. When I added the Ick Guard, many of them died off, leaving me with 26.

I learned a few things from this. Even with a good cycle, 40 small fish create a ton of nitrates over a very short time. Didnt help that I was trying to bulk them up for the MT.

Tank was seeded with established media, but there was always .25-.75ppm ammonia, so I was doing 50%WC every other day, and Prime daily.

It may have been that with the Ick Guard, I wasn't doing as frequent WC and a nitrate spike could have killed them, or it may have interacted with Prime, bound with it, or released ammonia, idk.

The point is I must concede 40 small fish in a 10g QT is too much. You can keep it going if you don't feed them much and with frequent WC, but if they do get struck with disease, it will be hard to recover.

I would say.. get 30 fish of one type with expectation that 5 will die, and you should be ok. I wanted 50 neons in my MT, but realized it would have to be done in a few batches.

Also, since the fish seem to be your main interest, consider going 24/7 Co2. You will probably find you can run much lower bps and the water will be constant.

Here is an update of the QT. Haven't shown it in two months. 26 In a 10g is a great display, but they will disappear in a larger tank.


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## The Bungulo (Aug 28, 2017)

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The Dude1 said:


> there is variation. Mid day it is 6.6 or so. I'm not sure what it degasses to


 Yeah, the variation is your problem. most fish will not survive if the ph is wacky. Is the tank fully cycled?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

What do you mean there' variation. From the co2 concentration?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> What do you mean there' variation. From the co2 concentration?


I don't get a full drop in pH. Last time I checked one of my non C02 tanks pH was 7.4 - 7.6 I think. The C02 shuts off at 5pm. I think I'm going to do as ChrisX said and lower the BPS and keep it running all the time. Most of my plants are pretty low tech friendly anyway and Ive been backing off the ferts a little too trying to get the last bit of hair algae under control around the bucephelandra. A group of 30 in addition to the surviving 10-12 would look really good. I'm still going to cease all additions for a while. I'm nervous now about my Panduro. The 2 males that I moved from the top tank and put into breeder nets in the bottom tank after they got picked on by the Africans haven't skipped a beat, but the fish I cater to are dropping like flies. I think I'll spring for a TDS meter as well. That's going to have to be considered if I am forced to use RO water. I'm pretty sure I already have an RO unit hooked up, just never used it. It goes to the small spicket in the kitchen sink. Ill double check. Its got the 3 separate cylinders.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> What temp for the QT Tank? Use a portion of RO water to get tank Water as close to their tanks as possible. Should I also do a round of general cure or erythromycin? How long do I QT? Is it ok if the qt tank is bare with no lights? Put some plants or something in there? Given the limits on my QT tank (10 gallons) I would assume I'm limited to one school at a time? I would like to add about 20 of each.


78 degrees is fine. I use RODI water for both tanks. I used to treat the QT with medication (Paraguard) from day one, but that does put stress on the fish, so I now just watch for signs of disease before treating. I have lights on the QT and I use a 5 gallon and have successfully acclimated 10-15 in it at a time.

Don't worry about pH. What we used to think of as pH shock is now more likely TDS shock. Best to keep it under 400 and not move it by more than 10% in a day. However, if you acclimate by matching GH and KH, you won't have to worry about TDS, just keep an eye on it.

Basically, when the fish come home I don't acclimate them to the tank, instead I acclimate the tank water to them (the water they're in). Then, over a week or two, I slowly acclimate the QT water to that of the main tank via 20% water changes every third day. Once completed, and if there is no sign of disease, I use tank water for two more water changes and then dump the fish in the main tank.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

The Dude1 said:


> I don't get a full drop in pH. Last time I checked one of my non C02 tanks pH was 7.4 - 7.6 I think. The C02 shuts off at 5pm. I think I'm going to do as ChrisX said and lower the BPS and keep it running all the time. Most of my plants are pretty low tech friendly anyway and Ive been backing off the ferts a little too trying to get the last bit of hair algae under control around the bucephelandra. A group of 30 in addition to the surviving 10-12 would look really good. I'm still going to cease all additions for a while. I'm nervous now about my Panduro. The 2 males that I moved from the top tank and put into breeder nets in the bottom tank after they got picked on by the Africans haven't skipped a beat, but the fish I cater to are dropping like flies. I think I'll spring for a TDS meter as well. That's going to have to be considered if I am forced to use RO water. I'm pretty sure I already have an RO unit hooked up, just never used it. It goes to the small spicket in the kitchen sink. Ill double check. Its got the 3 separate cylinders.


Gh,Kh more important than pH for wild caught cardinal's.
Small pH shift's daily with CO2 levels.
I might wonder how long the tank you were introducing the fish into has been running?
I might wonder how long the fish may have been in transport,unpacked,maybe plopped into dealer's tank,then bagged up for you and further stressed by another move to new environment/acclimation.
I might want to buy fishes that I have an idea that they have been in dealer's tank for a week rather than those that arrived to dealer the day before.
Point is..you may not be doing anything particularly wrong, the fishes just were stressed from accumulation of variables in short period of time.
Drip acclimation for groups of fishes requires three gal bucket IMHO and adding a few drops of PRIME that detoxifies not only chlorine but ammonia, is cheap insurance against ammonia level's rising in the bucket during prolonged drip acclimation. Just sayin.
I might just cut my tap water with R/O water mix after experimenting in a bucket to get proper%.
Maybe I might double check that bucket's used for acclimation ,moving fishes,don't accidentally get used for anything else.
I believe something suddenly happening or suddenly introduced for such rapid losses.
Much sympathy.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Another thought.
OP mentions African cichlids in another tank.
This suggests water is more suited for them(they like hard alkaline condition's) than wild caught softer water loving fishes.
If the pH from the tank tetra's were introduced to test's between 7.4 and 7.6 as mentioned,, then water from the tap prolly test's closer to 7.8>8.0 after gassing off any CO2 from source water.
Would be sizeable sudden shift in water parameter's with each water change from the tap to the tank.
Hence the suggestion of mixing tap water with R/O water maybe 50/50 % if trying to keep softer water fishes.
Otherwise ..one might expect to lose more than a few fishes that just can't adapt very well to water as is.
When purchasing a large group of fishes and dealer won't hold them for you,then quarantine is mandatory to protect your display tank and otherwise healthy stock.
Or..I might want to be there when dealer get's fish shipment and take the fishes before they are placed in dealer tank.
then acclimate them to my tank or yours.
Or have fishes shipped directly to you to lessen stress from repeated movement's between differing tanks.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

I buy about 98% of my fish mail order from Portland where I believe the water is extremely soft. And my understanding is that in shipping the water goes quite acidic. I then plunk some of the fish into my fairly hard water (half my tanks I use tap the other half RO water) without ill effect. No drip acclimatization, no gradual introduction, open the bag dump them in a net, plop them in the tank. Pretty high success record. Even with cardinal tetras.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Triport said:


> I buy about 98% of my fish mail order from Portland where I believe the water is extremely soft. And my understanding is that in shipping the water goes quite acidic. I then plunk some of the fish into my fairly hard water (half my tanks I use tap the other half RO water) without ill effect. No drip acclimatization, no gradual introduction, open the bag dump them in a net, plop them in the tank. Pretty high success record. Even with cardinal tetras.


Well of course you do.
And so it goes on forum's.:|
Advice is free, no one getting paid for offering it, or heeding it.


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## cobra (Feb 4, 2005)

Triport said:


> I buy about 98% of my fish mail order from Portland where I believe the water is extremely soft. And my understanding is that in shipping the water goes quite acidic. I then plunk some of the fish into my fairly hard water (half my tanks I use tap the other half RO water) without ill effect. No drip acclimatization, no gradual introduction, open the bag dump them in a net, plop them in the tank. Pretty high success record. Even with cardinal tetras.


Drop and plop works ok going from soft to hard water. Going the other way around is inviting osmotic shock.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

The PH change via co2 degassing is not at all harmful to fish. I kept a large school of cards for years as many others do with co2 only running during the day, in addition what happens when you do a water change. If my tap is 7.5 and my tank around 6.5, every time you do a 50% water change your PH is changing. Fish seem to really enjoy water changes.


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## CT_Ram (Sep 10, 2017)

Quarantining your fish is always good practice. I do think 40 fish in a 10 gallon is not going to work. There are always cardinal in the stores. It is not like if you had to buy them all at once cause you might not find them again. I would try groups of 10. I am actually on my way to buy 10 of each today to quarantine to keep adding to my new tank. If you do try using medication there are a few things you have to consider. Erythromycin will most likely kill your filter and you should definitely keep up the water changes. I vaguely remember something about prime and praziquantel (in general cure) interacting. It should say somewhere in the bottles that you need to like wait 30 min from when you add prime to when you add praziquantel. I am not sure about the order or times but I vaguely remember a warning.
The best would be to know from the store owner if it is a "good batch of cardinals", they know it. 
Ya pop and drop does not work from harder to softer. I was reading about pop and drop and instead of my usually 1 century drip acclimation I just opened the bag and put my new rasboras in the quarantine tank and they were gasping for air in a minute. Do not do that! Very very bad idea. The other bag I drip acclimated them and they were perfect. I did test it. I have a tendency to test everything cause I don't like myths but now I am totally convinced that drip acclimation is really important.
The cardinals are really easily stressed. You see them head down vertically in panic when you put them in the bag. I would suggest a dark quarantine with plenty cover like random floating plants or whatever you can put in there.

Bump: oh, and I forgot to say, you most likely do not need medication for ick in cardinals. They like really warm water. If you do get ick just raise the temperature for like 2 weeks. Ick will not reproduce and the cardinal like it. I have gotten ick several times from newly bought tetras, never lost a tetra of any kind to ick and all I do is keeping the temperature high in quarantine for 2 weeks.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Are Cardinals better than Neons?

IMO, the decision comes down to what temperature your tank is set to. If you MUST have a higher temperature tank, the Cardinals are a better choice. 

Individually it could be argued that Cardinals look better, but they have a larger footprint. You can probably fit 1.5-2x as many neons with same biological load (and cost) as a Cardinal school.

That Neons are tank raised is a big plus for them, they can handle higher pH. 

According to this article:
The Cockatoo Dwarf Cichlid (Apistogramma cacatuoides) (Full Article) | Details | Articles | TFH Magazine®

Apistogrammas are lower temperature fish (dont need heater) and will be more compatible with Neons. Is it possible OP's issues are exacerbated by too high a temperature? I haven't kept apistos.


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## CT_Ram (Sep 10, 2017)

That info on apistogramma temperature seems weird to me. I thought to get even sex ratios while breeding you would have them at 79-80F. I maybe totally wrong but I would double check that temperature thing. 
Neos are supposed to be hardier than cardinals cause they are commercially breed and live in lower temperature than cardinals. If you want to keep rummynose than cardinals are more in the same high temperature bracket. My rummys spawned a few times in like 86F.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Found another Cardinal on the filter intake this morning. Down to about 9 and 6 Rummynose. The remainder look healthy, but what do I know. I need to order a kh and gh test kit and maybe a TDS meter. I also need a PAR meter for a project so I will get working on it. I have 12-13 syno lucinpinnis in this tank as well as the 2 Gold Caucatoides.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

roadmaster said:


> Well of course you do.
> And so it goes on forum's.:|
> Advice is free, no one getting paid for offering it, or heeding it.


Just offering up that I don't think it is a change from soft to hard water that is impacting cardinal tetras to that degree. I think some sort of illness exacerbated by the stress of transit is more likely. I am only speaking from personal experience.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Triport said:


> Just offering up that I don't think it is a change from soft to hard water that is impacting cardinal tetras to that degree. I think some sort of illness exacerbated by the stress of transit is more likely. I am only speaking from personal experience.



I have heard that fish stores have a ton of losses when they take new stock. If you take stock from them soon after they have been added to their tanks, you will absorb their losses. Good for them, bad for you.

Is it possible to find a LFS that doesnt sell out of them immediately, so you can pick up ones that have been in their tanks a month?

Or, another idea... take the remaining stock from one of your tanks and put them in the QT or the other tank... Then, buy 40 cardinals, 40 Rummynose mail order and use the MT as their QT.


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## CT_Ram (Sep 10, 2017)

I said "there are always cardinals in the store" so now I am eating my words. I have been trying to buy some for a few weeks for my new tank and they don't have them. I was at the store yesterday and again no cardinals. I bought some rummynose anyway cause the guy said this shipment came better than last weeks and even so one died just panicking from being moved from the tank to the little plastic thing they hang on the tanks while they are catching them. They are mega small. Maybe it is not the best time of year to get either of them?
The ones I have in my 55g are like 4 years old so I haven't bought any in a while. I don't remember buying them so small as the ones I got yesterday. Maybe this is their spawning season in the amazon and they are coming too young and weak? I forgot to ask but maybe you can ask in your store if there is a better time of year when they came a little bigger and stronger. Last week the cardinals were minuscule and had a sign saying not ready for sale. This week the rummynose were invisible. Maybe time of year?
I like the idea of swapping QT and MT though. But I guess you need to be sure is a good batch before buying 80 fish.
I still get confused by the fact that the apistos also died. That is puzzling to me. Cardinals and Rumy dying of "panic attacks" while being moved is common but I never had them actually contaminating and leading to the death of other established fish.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

They sell out of the Cardinals and Rummynose as well as Panda Corys within a few days. Looking back with a clear mind I am certain that one of the 8 Cardinals and 5 Rummynose that I added carried some pathogen. The small juvenile female Apisto's that had only been in the tank a few days were not able to fight it off. The two large males and the 13 Syno's likewise were able to fight it off. I think you are onto something with the swap... I have no Apisto's in the top tank so I could move the 2 Gold ones back in there. I am ready to move the 13 Syno's to the 150. So I could house the remaining 15 fish in a QT and use the main tank as a QT for maybe 2 groups of 40 or 50??? I think given the cost I will probably go with Neons. They give 75% of the look of Cardinals but are 1/3 the price... so I could do 3 times as many! That will look impressive. I have decided that I want a school of Rummynose as well.. they are just too cool in their tight little groups. Maybe 20 Rummynose and 100 Neons? I don't know what else I want in there. I've lost 5 Apisto's thus far. 
Also the panda Corys in the top tank do not hang out together. Usually I find a pair and then 4 or 5 others, but never the full 9. No losses thus far so maybe there isn't enough open space for them to group?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> They sell out of the Cardinals and Rummynose as well as Panda Corys within a few days. Looking back with a clear mind I am certain that one of the 8 Cardinals and 5 Rummynose that I added carried some pathogen. The small juvenile female Apisto's that had only been in the tank a few days were not able to fight it off. The two large males and the 13 Syno's likewise were able to fight it off. I think you are onto something with the swap... I have no Apisto's in the top tank so I could move the 2 Gold ones back in there. I am ready to move the 13 Syno's to the 150. So I could house the remaining 15 fish in a QT and use the main tank as a QT for maybe 2 groups of 40 or 50??? I think given the cost I will probably go with Neons. They give 75% of the look of Cardinals but are 1/3 the price... so I could do 3 times as many! That will look impressive. I have decided that I want a school of Rummynose as well.. they are just too cool in their tight little groups. Maybe 20 Rummynose and 100 Neons? I don't know what else I want in there. I've lost 5 Apisto's thus far.
> Also the panda Corys in the top tank do not hang out together. Usually I find a pair and then 4 or 5 others, but never the full 9. No losses thus far so maybe there isn't enough open space for them to group?


Disease is certainly a possibility, but am I right that you saw no visible signs such as spots, coatings or bizarre movements? If it was disease, i would have expected at least one of those many fish would have exhibited a symptom. Just guesswork on my part.

I would still bet on shock due to stress and be sure to itemize all the possible stress sources listed in this thread and address each one before you add any more. Cards and neons are unusually sensitive, as you know. Be careful with your plans. Adding that many fish at one time can create stresses in and of itself. The most I'd push into a tank at once would be about ten a week.

Regarding them selling out rapidly, I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of those in the LFS tank don't die before they're sold. The LFSs I've spoken with have commented that they just hope they can sell what they get in before they die off.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Deanna said:


> Disease is certainly a possibility, but am I right that you saw no visible signs such as spots, coatings or bizarre movements? If it was disease, i would have expected at least one of those many fish would have exhibited a symptom. Just guesswork on my part.
> 
> I would still bet on shock due to stress and be sure to itemize all the possible stress sources listed in this thread and address each one before you add any more. Cards and neons are unusually sensitive, as you know. Be careful with your plans. Adding that many fish at one time can create stresses in and of itself. The most I'd push into a tank at once would be about ten a week.
> 
> Regarding them selling out rapidly, I wouldn't be surprised if a large portion of those in the LFS tank don't die before they're sold. The LFSs I've spoken with have commented that they just hope they can sell what they get in before they die off.



Of the 50 neons I bought from Petco for $1, I still have 26 healthy ones. However, I had 38 that hung on for over a month, but I was not able to overcome the ick without losing more.

20% were lost due to acclimation or travel stress, and these were the lowly Petco Neons. If I had a larger QT, I might have been able to save more.

Regarding Neons, my guess is everyone gets them from the same farm so the quality should be similar. Cardinals are wild caught so many more variables.


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## StevieD (Jun 17, 2017)

I would be careful of the Synodontis lucipinnis, they are quite capable of chasing down anything small enough to fit it into their mouths.

Having said that I doubt the Rummy Nose Tetras would fit, again it depends on the size of the catfish.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

When I used to buy cards I would get pretty heavy loses too. One thing I did notice is that a UV made a big difference. Many people don't bother with them, but fish like cards when their stressed, immune systems get compromised and their much more suseptible to anything in the water. The UV if set correctly will kill many pathogens that the fish would've succumbed to. You'll also never get ich again and your water will always be crystal clear. 

One tank I had a while back I ran one 24/7 with no ill side effects on the plants.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> When I used to buy cards I would get pretty heavy loses too. One thing I did notice is that a UV made a big difference. Many people don't bother with them, but fish like cards when their stressed, immune systems get compromised and their much more suseptible to anything in the water. The UV if set correctly will kill many pathogens that the fish would've succumbed to. You'll also never get ich again and your water will always be crystal clear.
> 
> One tank I had a while back I ran one 24/7 with no ill side effects on the plants.


Agree fully. I've run a UVS for about 8 years and have yet to see any sign of disease. Has so many other benefits as well, as you pointed out, including killing of many algae spore and redox balancing. One of the best investments I've made in the hobby.

Important to get a high-end one, not the cheapies on Amazon that will just clear-up green water. I Use a TMC Vecton2 on a 29 gal. However, my QT doesn't have it, just the main tank.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Deanna said:


> Agree fully. I've run a UVS for about 8 years and have yet to see any sign of disease. Has so many other benefits as well, as you pointed out, including killing of many algae spore and redox balancing. One of the best investments I've made in the hobby.
> 
> Important to get a high-end one, not the cheapies on Amazon that will just clear-up green water. I Use a TMC Vecton2 on a 29 gal. However, my QT doesn't have it, just the main tank.


I turned on the UV on the Sunsun after I lost the first couple, but I assume that falls in the cheap group. Ill pick one up and run it inline. I still haven't gotten around to setting up the C02 on my big tank and Ive had everything ready to go for maybe 6 weeks. I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I think the combination of their sensitivity and my less than ideal water is just not a good recipe right now. I get really upset when I lose fish and this is too much negativity for me. I'm down to a handful of each and I wont be surprised if they all succumb. 
The only spot I saw was on a single fish. It looked like a fungal thing, but it was gone and left a colorless area. A couple hours later he was dead, but every other fish has looked and acted perfectly normal even the 4 or 5 that Ive thus far lost today. 
What would you all suggest as maybe a larger tetra that is hardier and hopefully groups in some sense? I have some attraction to lemon tetras, lamp eye tetras, even the glo light tetras are alright. I just want an active busy tank. Ive got about 25 Emporer tetras in the top tank so Id like something different. I don't think I want another group of Congo tetras. Ive had black Neons and I'm not super excited about them. Id like to have a group of at least 30 relative to their adult size. They will likely share the tank with a group of Apisto's and some type of bottom dwelling fish, Maybe Clown loaches. Ive always loved those.
I'm looking for hardy first and foremost. They will be placed in the tank by themselves and the current inhabitants removed. I am confident the biofilter can handle 30 fish as I had 50 at one point. No plant nibblers of any type. 
Glo light tetras
Columbian Tetras
Lamp eye tetras
Lemon Tetras
Any experience or other suggestions?

Bump: Maybe pencil fish?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

Although I love neons and cards (of which I have many) I like, equally:

Harlequin Rasboras - hardy mid-tank swimmers
White Clouds - hardy and very active top/middle-tank swimmers
Glowlight Tetras - Hardy and low-tank swimmers (like neons and cardinals)
Head & Tail Light Tetra - Hardy (a little larger)

All in the same size category as neons, so you can get lots of them


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Haven't had the other ones, but the Harleys (Harlequin rasboras) and White Clouds are really hardy. I remember the Harleys being the 1st ones in and they would always to me amazement survive.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> I turned on the UV on the Sunsun after I lost the first couple, but I assume that falls in the cheap group.


Yeah, the SunSun may not be the best choice. One of the most important things in a UVS is ensuring the correct flow rates and the cheaper ones just push the water through too fast.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

As of now I'm thinking of doing maybe 25-30 Lemon Tetras or Diamond Tetras and maybe 4-5 clown loaches. Ive seen some cool videos on YouTube with big schools of Lemon Tetras, Red and Blue Columbian Tetras, and Diamond Tetras. They aren't super impressive individually but the big groups look cool. There is a place about 3 hours south of me that will do 20 Lemon Tetras for $60 shipped. I'm going to wait say 5 days for no deaths? What do you all suggest? Should I wait a week? I'm not good with waiting.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Deanna said:


> Yeah, the SunSun may not be the best choice. One of the most important things in a UVS is ensuring the correct flow rates and the cheaper ones just push the water through too fast.


I have a sunsun jup21 with adjustable water flow. It was $30 and works great. Cleaned up green, keep it on lower flow most of the time.

Price is not necessarily correlated with value.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I have a sunsun jup21 with adjustable water flow. It was $30 and works great. Cleaned up green, keep it on lower flow most of the time.
> 
> Price is not necessarily correlated with value.


They all cleanup green. It's the level one UVC wattage (low pressure bulb capability) for a given dwell time that's needed for pathogen control and algae spores.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Deanna said:


> They all cleanup green. It's the level one UVC wattage (low pressure bulb capability) for a given dwell time that's needed for pathogen control and algae spores.


OK, so tell us the ideal flow rate(dwell time) per watt. Certainly there is some metric you are using besides price?

If I am to understand, my UV sterilizer will kill anything the same size or smaller than algae spores at it's highest setting. If I lower the flow to say 1/4th, that will quadruple dwell time. What can't it handle?


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> OK, so tell us the ideal flow rate(dwell time) per watt. Certainly there is some metric you are using besides price?
> 
> If I am to understand, my UV sterilizer will kill anything the same size or smaller than algae spores at it's highest setting. If I lower the flow to say 1/4th, that will quadruple dwell time. What can't it handle?


It’s the difference between a “clarifier” and a sterilizer. The ‘kill’ capability is a combination of microwatt seconds per square centimeter and temperature. Low-pressure bulbs (more expensive) sterilize more than higher pressure bulbs. If a UVS is not designed to handle the temp of a low-pressure bulb, and you try to force-fit one into it, the UVS will fail (such as melting). I don’t need a heater because the UVS keeps my 29 gal tank at a steady 76 degrees. Try to determine what yours is and then match it to some of the charts in the links, below, that indicate the types of things that it will kill. Green water algae is the simplest of all.

As one article puts it: Lamp Value = UV Lamp Length + UV-C Output + Useful Lamp Life

Here are some links that will help with details:

https://www.hanoverkoifarms.com/why-use-pond-uv-light/ 

Ultraviolet Sterilizers: Improving Bacteria and Algae Control in Your Aquarium or Pond

UV Sterilizers Control Bacteria and Algae | Animal Planet

Aquarium & Pond UV Sterilization | How to use a UVC Sterilizer


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Thanks for links.

According to this one, I'm at least covered for viruses, bacteria, and algae. The reason I say this is that it perfectly clarified a murky algae bloom. Viruses and bacteria are easier to kill than algae.

Ultraviolet Sterilizers: Improving Bacteria and Algae Control in Your Aquarium or Pond

Metric is (Microwatt seconds per square centimeter).

I have a 9W bulb that is combined with an adjustable pump capable of 0-210gph, on a 50g tank. It was run full speed and it cleaned up the murky water in five days.

I'm absolutely positive this is the right UV filter for my application. (Not expecting it to kill fungus or protozoa) Replacement bulbs cost $6. 

Links are good information, but its incorrect to say that inexpensive UV filters are not effective.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

ChrisX said:


> I'm absolutely positive this is the right UV filter for my application. (Not expecting it to kill fungus or protozoa) Replacement bulbs cost $6.
> 
> Links are good information, but its incorrect to say that inexpensive UV filters are not effective.


Actually, I didn't say they were ineffective. All UVS can clear-up tank water. In your case, yours is doing what you want it to do, which is great.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Deanna said:


> Actually, I didn't say they were ineffective. All UVS can clear-up tank water. In your case, yours is doing what you want it to do, which is great.



I think a TLDR; version of this discussion would be (imo) "Inexpensive UV sterilizers are capable of killing viruses, bacteria, and algae when properly sized to the tank. For additional protection against fungus and protozoa, more expensive systems may be required."

Killing protozoa takes 3x as much wattage per.. than killing algae. Certainly if I lowered flow to 1/3 it would have enough wattage per.., but then the question becomes will there be enough turnover? If its not, a simple strategy would be to add 1-2 more sterilizers per volume of water, or use it on a smaller tank.

I think these SunSun UV sterilers are great.


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## KrypleBerry (May 23, 2017)

I keep a decent size rummynose school (20), all captive bread, all arrived with hard to diagnose ailments ranging from internal bacterial infections to paracites and fungi. Something Ive come to expect from many fish farms and so I plan accordingly. I keep metronidazole, focus, and prazipro on hand for any fish purchases I make. If unable to qt your stock consider pumping up your existing fish with the medicated food a week before you bring new fish in, and use the medicated feed after the new fish are added til they pass as healthy. This can help keep issues reletively contained. I soak 4 frozen bloodworm /cyclops cubes in garlic extract with one scoop focus and one scoop metroplex for about 30 min then feed. This takes care of the majority of things Ive been seeing in my purchased livestock. Stopped losing tetras after I began applying this treatment. Not one loss since. After 3 feedings I always notice a difference in the fish. Fish in captive breeding projects are kept over crowded and usually fed live foods to grow them out faster. The live foods and crowding are a perfect vectors for disease to spread. If you purchase and or keep snails, they are also carriers of a plethera of parasites and diseases that can pass to fish, some require both hosts to complete their life cycle. You wont always see paracites, or infections and sometimes must rely on cumulative symptoms to help you reach a probable diagnosis. Keep eyes open and examine their poop, feeding behaviors, respiration rates, look for dark spots or blotches (signs of hemorrhaging). The bugs always give themselves away eventually. 
Rummynose ime are pretty hardy, especially since many are captive bread these days. If calcium ions are too high in the water they will become sterile however (keep in mind if wishing to breed them). I keep my gh around 6°, ph with 24/7 co2 is 6.1, before co2 ph is 7.2, I keep my drop checker arguably yellow. I have a heavy stocked tank and dose E.I. as well, none of these have been an issue. After 50% weekly water changes the temp can fall to 73°F, this is normally when I see breeding behavior among my tetras. This is from my experience, hope it is helpful in some way and you get it figured out and get to keep/enjoy your fish.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

KrypleBerry said:


> I keep my gh around 6°, *ph with 24/7 co2 is 6.1*, before co2 ph is 7.2, I keep my drop checker arguably yellow. I have a heavy stocked tank and dose E.I. as well, none of these have been an issue. After 50% weekly water changes the temp can fall to 73°F, this is normally when I see breeding behavior among my tetras. This is from my experience, hope it is helpful in some way and you get it figured out and get to keep/enjoy your fish.


Just wanted to point out that your pH is constant with 24/7 CO2. I believe this is important.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ChrisX said:


> Just wanted to point out that your pH is constant with 24/7 CO2. I believe this is important.


Why?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> Why?


Just based on observation of the health of my fish vs. when I had CO2 on a timer. Just seems logical to keep the system as consistent as possible.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ChrisX said:


> Just based on observation of the health of my fish vs. when I had CO2 on a timer. Just seems logical to keep the system as consistent as possible.


So if I was trying to get as valid information as possible from a reliable sample, would I go by your tank or would I go by the thousands upon thousands and the vast majority who turn off their co2 at night without issue. 

So how do you keep everything the same during a water change?


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> So if I was trying to get as valid information as possible from a reliable sample, would I go by your tank or would I go by the thousands upon thousands and the vast majority who turn off their co2 at night without issue.
> 
> So how do you keep everything the same during a water change?


Its fairly common knowledge that some cichlid eggs will not hatch when pH is higher.

I had a number of spawns at constant pH 8.0 (before CO2), parents always ate eggs. I also had a couple spawns with fluctuating CO2 (Co2 on timer 8.0 -> 6.6 -> 8.0) and they ate eggs. Only once I fixed the pH to 6.8 did the parents hatch and raise their fry.

They have been raising the fry in my high tech planted tank with 24/7, the growth has been gangbusters, I haven't lost a single fish.

If eggs won't hatch in fluctuating pH, or if parents won't let them, that's all I need to know about what the fish think about the tank conditions.

I have a belief that people (groups) often try to be more intelligent than they are, and it leads to a condition of over analysis and doing more than is necessary. (Doing more is better right?) Theories develop that override common sense. Running CO2 on a timer separates you from the plebian folk who don't run it on a timer, therefore it is better.

Lots of planted tanks on solenoids, but I wonder, how many people breeding fish with wildly fluctuating pH? This thread is about health of the fish, the only reason to put CO2 on a solenoid is for fish health (plants don't care) and my fish prefer constant pH.

Just because thousands of people run on a solenoid, doesn't mean its best for fish. I suspect its origins are to help conserve CO2.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Thousands breed fish with co2 off at night. If your really into breeding fish, most don't even bother with co2. 

Why don't you post in quotes where I said it was better to turn it off at night. I simply responded to you when you said:



ChrisX said:


> Just wanted to point out that your pH is constant with 24/7 CO2. I believe this is important.


It's just not important and 10 years and thousands of other tanks tell me so. You still didn't tell me how you keep things constant during a water change. Many fish actually start spawning during WCs.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> Thousands breed fish with co2 off at night. If your really into breeding fish, most don't even bother with co2.
> 
> Why don't you post in quotes where I said it was better to turn it off at night. I simply responded to you when you said:
> 
> ...


Smaller water changes.

If pH goes from 8.0 -> 6.8 with Co2, a 30% water change will take it up to 7.2ish. Not a huge change, compared to the daily swing from on/off.

I know what is working great for me. Please tell me about your experience raising fish in a wildly fluctuating pH. I would have kept going with the timer, but I observed what was happening in my tank and made adjustments.

BTW, I needed a lower pH for my fish to breed and CO2 was an effective way to do this.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Which medicated food do you gravitate towards? A combination of garlic extract, focus, and metroplex? I will have to check and see if I still have it, but I had a nice UV sterilizer that I got when I purchased my 150 from a previous owner. It was full saltwater with an octopus HOB sump, protein skimmer, and all of that. Otherwise Ill start shopping for something. Any suggestions of something that would efficiently prevent this from happening again on a 75 gallon tank? Full spectrum... parasites, viruses, all of it. Since I will be pretty much starting at zero in the tank I can QT everyone together at one time in the tank and limit stress. I'm assuming that since the BB is on the filter media that I will be unaffected by the UV sterilizer and with the use of medicated food I could circumvent killing it by medicating the entire tank.


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> Which medicated food do you gravitate towards? A combination of garlic extract, focus, and metroplex? I will have to check and see if I still have it, but I had a nice UV sterilizer that I got when I purchased my 150 from a previous owner. It was full saltwater with an octopus HOB sump, protein skimmer, and all of that. Otherwise Ill start shopping for something. Any suggestions of something that would efficiently prevent this from happening again on a 75 gallon tank? Full spectrum... parasites, viruses, all of it. Since I will be pretty much starting at zero in the tank I can QT everyone together at one time in the tank and limit stress. I'm assuming that since the BB is on the filter media that I will be unaffected by the UV sterilizer and with the use of medicated food I could circumvent killing it by medicating the entire tank.


For the smaller fish (neons, cards, etc.), I feed "New Life Spectrum Thera A - Small Fish With Extra Garlic." You can read about it at Our range of premium fish food | New Life Spectrum Premium Fish Food for Colour and Vitality.

The UVS I have is a TMC Vecton V2 series. You would have to get the right size for your tank. You can read about them at Tropical Marine | UV Sterilisers. UVS only affect what passes through them, so the BB are not affected at all.

There are many good alternatives to any of these recommendations.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Deanna said:


> For the smaller fish (neons, cards, etc.), I feed "New Life Spectrum Thera A - Small Fish With Extra Garlic." You can read about it at Our range of premium fish food | New Life Spectrum Premium Fish Food for Colour and Vitality.
> 
> The UVS I have is a TMC Vecton V2 series. You would have to get the right size for your tank. You can read about them at Tropical Marine | UV Sterilisers. UVS only affect what passes through them, so the BB are not affected at all.
> 
> There are many good alternatives to any of these recommendations.


oh man... that's the one I had and threw away.. at least in appearance. Those are expensive. Looks like about 40w or more is recommended for a tank this size. I had that thing sitting in my garage for a year...


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

Oh how I wish that having my Co2 on a timer would prevent my Kribensis from breeding!!! :laugh2:


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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

The Dude1 said:


> oh man... that's the one I had and threw away


You better make a trip to the local landfill!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ChrisX said:


> ...
> 
> I have a belief that people (groups) often try to be more inte*lligent than they are, and it leads to a condition of over analysis and doing more than is necessary. (Doing more is better right?) Theories develop that override common sense. Running CO2 on a timer separates you from the plebian folk who don't run it on a timer, therefore it is better..*


What kind of statement is this? 

Again, I invite you to quote my post where I said turning off co2 was better. Where is it?

In fact you said it was important to run co2 24/7 to maintain steady ph. I simply asked why? Then for some reason you pivoted the discussion to breeding which wasn't even part of the discussion over five pages of thread. There is zero evidence that turning co2 off at night and back on is bad for your fish. I think you know that, that's why you switched the topic to breeding advantages, which still doesn't hold water.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> What kind of statement is this?
> 
> Again, I invite you to quote my post where I said turning off co2 was better. Where is it?
> 
> In fact you said it was important to run co2 24/7 to maintain steady ph. I simply asked why? Then for some reason you pivoted the discussion to breeding which wasn't even part of the discussion over five pages of thread. There is zero evidence that turning co2 off at night and back on is bad for your fish. I think you know that, that's why you switched the topic to breeding advantages, which still doesn't hold water.


If the fish won't breed in certain water conditions, that means they are not ideal for the fish. My observation of the fish, breeding behavior and respiration is the basis for my belief that 24/7 CO2 (and constant pH) is better for them.

That is why. I can't say any more on this.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

If you don't have room for a quarantine tank, then you don't have room for a display tank.


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## Triport (Sep 3, 2017)

What a lot of nonsense. A quarantine tank is ideal of course but get off your high horse. Millions of people keep fish without the use of a quarantine tank and if they didn't no one would make any money selling fish or supplies there would be no hobby for you to enjoy.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Is true ,,lot's of folks attempt to keep fishes without quarantine with varying degree's of success, but usually only until they become tired of losing fishes in their main display tank due to self induced sickness or disease introduced, or medicating fishes in their display tank that were otherwise healthy.
Those that buy fish and plop em in their tank's without quarantine or research are fish collector's rather than fish keeper's.
Are indeed thousand's of em.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

I've had quarantine tanks. The lower 75 was a quarantine tank for the syno's now in my 150. The top 75 was a QT for the same 150 previously. Lets not assign any more requisites than a hobby really necessitates. I had my losses now we move forward. We are talking about a small group of $3 fish here. I'm not adding 12 Discus to my established group of 15 lol. Quarantine in and of itself serves to limit losses, but a poor shipment of fish is still going to have substantial losses. As upsetting as those statistically unlikely losses can be, In the end its just going to take a week longer for me to get to the stocking I desire. I made decisions based on those circumstances. Id rather possibly spend a little more on getting to my desired stocking than have tanks sitting all over my house. 
I temporarily set up a 10 gallon under the 150 with a cycled sponge filter from my shrimp tank. I'm going back and forth as to what I'm going to go with. 20 Cardinals and Rummynose and hope I have better luck by putting them into the little tank and treating it with General Cure and medicated food. Maybe 40+ Neons. Maybe Gertrude Rainbows. I was even considering Praecox. Originally I had my heart set on Rummynose and Cardinals so I think I'm just going to chalk it up to life experience and do it again. Its hobby money anyways.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry not everyone can have a quarantine tank? If your married and you have no place to hid a "quarantine tank" that's not going to go over too well, since it could turn a display tank that enhances the home environment to one that looks like a fish room. People come into the hobby and have all different objectives. It's not one size fits all. I barely ran a quarantine tank in all the years I've been in the hobby. If I have fish that I really want to give every chance I'll use a UV. 

For that matter I don't dip plants either. It's pretty much impossible to keep your tank sterile from snail eggs, algae etc. The algae is already there waiting to come out if the conditions are favorable.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I think the problem is that without a quarantine regimen (not just a tank), building a large school is going to be difficult if every time new fish are added, they wipe out a large % of the original school as well as some of the centerpiece fish.


There was a YT video from Aquarium Co-op that mentions two medicines that he uses to quarantine all of his new stock. Its worth watching.

I doubt the store where OP buys stock is doing any quarantine. I also have to disagree with the "its just a hobby, I can do whatever I want" mentality. Killing fish through neglect shows an attitude that the fish are just ornaments and not animals. I suppose there are people lurking in the hobby with this attitude.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I would disagree with that as well. Once you have a living thing under your care there's a moral responsibility to take care of it.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

I think we are agreeing.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ChrisX said:


> I think we are agreeing.


Enjoy it while it lasts. >


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Sorry not everyone can have a quarantine tank? If your married and you have no place to hid a "quarantine tank" that's not going to go over too well, since it could turn a display tank that enhances the home environment to one that looks like a fish room. People come into the hobby and have all different objectives. It's not one size fits all.


I agree it's not a one size fits all hobby. But I think we can also all agree that...



houseofcards said:


> Once you have a living thing under your care there's a moral responsibility to take care of it.


Which means not taking an animal into your home unless you have the necessary resources to care for it and the other animals that you already own. If someone posted in this forum that they really want to have an oscar, but they only have a 10 gallon tank, I do no think you would be receptive to the argument that "not everyone can have a 40 gallon".

Besides, for the fish discussed in this thread, a 5 gallon bucket would be an adequate quarantine. If you don't have room for that, then you shouldn't keep a community tank. 

Another alternative, for those who don't have room for quarantine, is to keep a single species tank and buy all of your fish at once. 




> I barely ran a quarantine tank in all the years I've been in the hobby. If I have fish that I really want to give every chance I'll use a UV.
> 
> For that matter I don't dip plants either. It's pretty much impossible to keep your tank sterile from snail eggs, algae etc. The algae is already there waiting to come out if the conditions are favorable.


Agreed. Quarantining plants is pointless.





The Dude1 said:


> We are talking about a small group of $3 fish here. I'm not adding 12 Discus to my established group of 15 lol.


I don't care _at all_ how much money you lose in your fish keeping. See houseofcards' point re: moral obligation. To you, perhaps your fish are just very pretty little dollar bills floating around behind glass. If you don't care, then I can't imagine there's anything I could say to convince you.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Bananableps said:


> ....
> Which means not taking an animal into your home unless you have the necessary resources to care for it and the other animals that you already own. If someone posted in this forum that they really want to have an oscar, but they only have a 10 gallon tank, I do no think you would be receptive to the argument that "not everyone can have a 40 gallon".
> 
> Besides, for the fish discussed in this thread, a 5 gallon bucket would be an adequate quarantine. If you don't have room for that, then you shouldn't keep a community tank.


To equate having a quarantine with keeping an oscar in a 10g is ridiculous. If you want to take that approach. Do you have a UV in every tank you setup? because UVs save fish everyday. In many ways they are more effective than a quarantine. BTW I never throw a big school of fish in a tank at once. If I want a school of 50, I put in 5, then another 5, etc.. I'm in no rush and have not had any problems. If it's a large tank with alot of fish I use a UV. This cuts the transmission of many common diseases between fish down drastically. 

You could quarantine a fish for 3 months and it could still transmit something to another fish without a UV. Your also adding stress by moving the fish from the LFS to "your bucket" and then eventually to your tank.

BTW: I think this guy would disagree with you "Quarantine Bucket Idea" 

http://advancedaquariumconcepts.com/how-to-setup-a-quarantine-tank/


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## EDLITE (Jul 31, 2016)

I agree that most the common tetras are now tank bred so having low Ph and soft water are actually detrimental to your fish. Take a close look at these fish you are buying, I mean really scrutinize them for any signs of distress. Often I get my fish and pick them up when they arrive. I have several large tanks w/14 species of tetras and half of them spawn in this 100 gal community tank.
I imagine your H2O is fine but your source fish are not 100%. I would quit adding fish until your fish are all healthy so you can then eliminate your tank water. Apisto Caucatoides dying is generally a sign of poor H2O quality. Even if you float your bags of fish you can still really stress your fish if the delta T from store tank is vastly different than your tank. As an example a friend gave me a huge Cardinal Tetra and although I floated the bag within a day the fish got ich. I checked my friends tank and it was 89 and mine was 74, not something this fish could handle although the rest of the fish he gave me did fine.
I know this next statement is considered a no no but I never quarantine new fish. The fish I pick are 100% and my tank is 100%. I seldom over the last 40 years lose a new fish.


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

Bananableps said:


> I agree it's not a one size fits all hobby. But I think we can also all agree that...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are REALLY stretching here... lol. Do you take your dog or cat for yearly bloodwork? Do you treat your lawn with pet safe insecticides? How comprehensive is the health plan that you provide your family?? There is ALWAYS more that can be done. Money, space, and any number of factors provide realistic impediments to our hypothetical analysis. I have used a QT in the past and I believe in them. When I decided to do this group I did not have one available and played the odds. I will set one up now which I have already done. The assertions that you are trying to present are ridiculous and petty. You are not fit to judge me or anyone else. Find some place other than a fish forum to troll around. Lots of "holier than thou" types on Facebook I hear. You'd fit right in.


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

houseofcards said:


> To equate having a quarantine with keeping an oscar in a 10g is ridiculous. If you want to take that approach. Do you have a UV in every tank you setup? because UVs save fish everyday. In many ways they are more effective than a quarantine. BTW I never throw a big school of fish in a tank at once. If I want a school of 50, I put in 5, then another 5, etc.. I'm in no rush and have not had any problems. If it's a large tank with alot of fish I use a UV. This cuts the transmission of many common diseases between fish down drastically.


Does this work?

I have a UV in my 50g, could I really just add a few new schoolers at a time without worrying about what they bring?


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## The Dude1 (Jun 17, 2016)

ChrisX said:


> Does this work?
> 
> I have a UV in my 50g, could I really just add a few new schoolers at a time without worrying about what they bring?


Ive been researching this for a couple days as well... From what Ive found the difference in opinions on effectiveness usually relate to the size of the UV sterilizer being used. A tank of our size (75 gallons) requires what looks to be 45 watts... I had a much larger one sitting in my garage for nearly 2 years before I tossed it. Their use doesn't come up much in freshwater tanks, but they are considered a necessity in saltwater. As to your question it appears that generally the consensus is that adequately sized UV sterilizers do make quarantine much less necessary. The larger ones kill bacteria, protozoa, and pretty much anything else. I don't know why we don't hear more about their usage.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

ChrisX said:


> Does this work?
> 
> I have a UV in my 50g, could I really just add a few new schoolers at a time without worrying about what they bring?


Do you mean will it help reduce the transmission of disease yes. Will fish when stressed not succumb as easily to pathogens in the water yes. That being said nothing is full proof. We are keeping fish in glass boxes, stuff happens. A quarantine has drawsbacks as well, especially if you don't have the room for a full-size one. 

Put it this way, disease is there, algae is there. It's conditions that bring it out. I'm not against quarantine but a UV brings a very strong benefit and as mentioned by @The Dude1 there's a reason the salt side uses them. On the salt side the fish tend to be more expensive and less expendable and are also the main focus. In planted the fish sometimes are not the focus depending on the setup.

The effectiveness obviously assumes you have the right flow rate, dwell time, etc.


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## Eclecticjanie (Sep 21, 2017)

Correct. 

Sent from my SM-T337V using Tapatalk


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