# actinic white



## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

actinic is almost useless to plants. a 10,000k non actinic bulb is a little on the high side, but should be mostly usable by plants. 5000-7000k is the ideal range, but certain bulbs break the rules, like GE 9,325K bulbs.

In all honesty your question has already been answered 100 times, so try doing a little searching for more info the bulb temps and what's good vs. what isn't.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

malkore said:


> actinic is almost useless to plants. a 10,000k non actinic bulb is a little on the high side, but should be mostly usable by plants. 5000-7000k is the ideal range, but certain bulbs break the rules, like GE 9,325K bulbs.
> 
> In all honesty your question has already been answered 100 times, so try doing a little searching for more info the bulb temps and what's good vs. what isn't.



Yes, actinic bulbs are not good for plants, but what rules does a ge9325 break? Why is 10000K a little on the high side?

Kelvin has nothing to do with an "ideal range" Malkore. It measures what color the light appears to the human eye. It has nothing to do with your plants.

Who needs to do the research?  

Houstonplant: 

An actinic bulb is not suitable for plants. Kelvin is personal preference. If you like a more greenish look to the light in your tank, go with 6700K if you like a little pinkish, go GE 9325. What's your tank size?

I run a 6700K and a 9325 and it's a nice look for me. It all depends on what you want.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

Fat guy,

then explain to me why a 3,000k PC only grows algae in a tank, but a 6500K bulb will make the plants grow better?

Kelvin DOES matter, but things like multi-phosphored bulbs can make kelvin useless.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

malkore said:


> Fat guy,
> 
> then explain to me why a 3,000k PC only grows algae in a tank, but a 6500K bulb will make the plants grow better?


According to whom? 

I think you need to do just a little more research. Don't mean to get you on the defensive, but you are wrong about your notion of Kelvin. 

Here are the Basics to the terms used for Lighting, and you can take what you want from it. If you are looking for more in depth definitions, then I recommend you find them on your own. 

Lumens & LAX- measures what the human eye sees as light

Kelvin Rating- Measures what color the light APPEARS to the human eye.

CRI (color rendering index)- depicts how well the light will reproduce "natural looking" colors

Watts- How much electricity is needed to run the lamp.

Photosynthetic Radiation (PAR)- really the most important factor when it comes to deciphering how well a bulb will work on your plants. However, most bulbs do not give out this information.

To answer your question about a 3000K pc being an algae grower...well, it's kind of a broad statement that you give with no example. If you used a 3000K pc  and got algae then maybe there was something else at stake other than your Kelvin rating.


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

going for popcorn


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

Fatguy,

I guess i'm not making my point the right way. Is Kelvin the best measure of a bulb's effectiveness on plants? No. Can it be a good indicator? Yes.

As far as the 3000k PC growing algae - I've heard this from countless planted tank keepers that have been doing this a heck of a lot longer than myself. And, from my own experience of running a 20watt halogen over a 5.5gallon tank, then switching to an 18watt 3000k PC screw in, and getting algae within 3 days...well it's not scientific, but it resolved my belief that, on average, 5,000k is the lowest you wanna go.

before all the fancy phosphor coatings, CRI was much more closely related to Kelvin temps. Now that we do fancy things to bulbs, CRI is the better way to gauge how good a bulb is. however, I only ever seem to find CRI's on NO tube lights. None of the PC bulbs I bought had any CRI information (not sure about my 9325's, have to go check that now).


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

malkore said:


> Fatguy,
> 
> I guess i'm not making my point the right way. Is Kelvin the best measure of a bulb's effectiveness on plants? No. Can it be a good indicator? Yes.


How is Kelvin a good indicator? How does it indicate a bulb's effectiveness on plants? Please explain your point when you get the chance.

The reason I listed all those terms above is mainly because many people don't understand what they mean. The main problem with low Kelvin ratings is that it is just not very attractive to look at. With a 3000K bulb, I bet your algae looked a lot greener.  

But there are other things about the bulb, other than Kelvin that are essential to plant growth. 



> , from my own experience of running a 20watt halogen over a 5.5gallon tank, then switching to an 18watt 3000k PC screw in, and getting algae within 3 days...well it's not scientific, but it resolved my belief that, on average, 5,000k is the lowest you wanna go.


I'm sorry but this doesn't prove anything. The questions I have:

How old was your tank? When was your last water change? How much did you feed? What was your Temp, Nitrate, Phosphate, Potassium...etc levels? Did you take readings when that happened? What kind of algae did you get? 

In other words, maybe you were too quick to point the finger at the Kelvin rating of your light bulb. 

If you can give me some sort of proof that low Kelvin ratings cause algae blooms then there is something to debate. 

I gave some common definitions to lighting terms. 
PAR is the most important thing about your light when it comes to plants.



> In all honesty your question has already been answered 100 times, so try doing a little searching for more info the bulb temps and what's good vs. what isn't.


...jeepers


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Wö£fëñxXx said:


> going for popcorn


Awww man, I ran out of popcorn!


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

I don't mean to break up the fight... errr... discussion... but is it just the *white* actinic light that's useless to plants? What about the blue actinic bulbs? Or are actinic bulbs in general only useful in marine tanks?


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

Don't worry about breaking up the discussion.  
This is what the post is about:

Are actinic bulbs good and what type Kelvin if not?

Actinic- bad for plants
Kelvin- not a plant factor


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## tombsc (Nov 24, 2003)

If Kelvin is not a plant factor, why was I told that a bulb with 12000 Kelvin was too high for plants ?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Bought more popcorn!!!! (Is actinic popcorn good or bad?)
:mrgreen:


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## amanda huggenkiss (Mar 3, 2004)

(*white* actinic popcorn is *always* good)

Aaaaand, forgive me if I'm being dense, but why is actinic bad for plants? Is it *bad*, completely unuseable light, or just unnecessary? I'm dragging this one out because I've seen actinic lights advertised as being good for both reef tanks and planted freshwater tanks.


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

tombsc said:


> If Kelvin is not a plant factor, why was I told that a bulb with 12000 Kelvin was too high for plants ?


I don't know who, what, when, where, or why you were told that. 

12000K will look very bright and white and will probably be too "high" for your eyeballs.

I'm curious now. Does anybody have a different definition of Kelvin that they would like to share? I'm not sure now why people are so confused about what Kelvin is. 




> Kelvin Rating- Measures what color the light APPEARS to the human eye.




If doubt is still looming over heads here, feel free to send me a pm and I will give you the email to a source at AGA who can verify what I have been saying...or just sit back, increase the Kelvin in your popcorn and enjoy


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

<--sits on sofa with wasser and helps him eat his popcorn







im fresh out


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Can you hand me over some of that, uhm, actinic tonic?

<<hopes it doesn't cause actinic keratosis>>

:aah: :hehe:


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## Daemonfly (Oct 1, 2003)

IMHO, Kelvin is only good for a very _general_ guideline whenever the manufacturer doesn't supply any actual output graphs. One bulb thats 6700k could be quite different from another brand thats also 6700k. Kelvin rating was just loosely adapted for fluorescents to try to help describe their "look" to the human eye.


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

no no no DF, Kelvin is totally useless....completely, totally, utterly, useless.


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

For those who don't want actinic popcorn, I have some 2700k popcorn. 2700k comes with butter flavoring 

*no more room on the couch, so just finds a spot on the floor*


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

No no no, Gomer... that 2700K popcorn is totally, utterly tasteless!! What's the CRI of that anyway??

<<will use only actinic popcorn to feed fish>>


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

malkore said:


> no no no DF, Kelvin is totally useless....completely, totally, utterly, useless.


simmer

There's no use reiterating the last posts.
I'm done here. Call an electrician. 

<Fat Guy reaches for the 2700K popcorn but has trouble seeing it on the green carpet......>


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## George Willms (Jul 25, 2003)

I have some 10000K popcorn, it's mty favorite, it's got that white cheddar cheese flavor!


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

after having some 2700k butter popcorn and sampling (well..sneaking) some of the 10,000k white popcorn, I have concluded that the 20K actinic blue corn chips are far superior for snacking.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

I'm personally attracted to the 18000k Milk Duds myself...


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## Gomer (Aug 14, 2003)

They make brown light? interesting! hate to see the CRI on that! must be like 5 or something.


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

lol.... I couldnt think of anything that was purple.. lol


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

Anyway.. I think we have drifted enough off topic ;-)

The short version of this thread:

1.) Kelvin is not a very accurate indicator of a bulbs usefullness when growing plants, however is more a matter of personal taste. I have grown plants using bulbs ranging from 2700k - 20000k so its far too general to say "all bulbs under 5000k are only good for growing algae". Its more likely that the bulbs people were using were low in the usable ranges of light that plants need, allowing algae to thrive.

2.) When selecting a bulb look for high output in the red and Blue spectrum

3.) Before all of these custom phosphors were being used there were a few guidelines that people used to follow. Unfortunately in the current market people trying to follow these "rules" may not be relying on useful information.

Such as:

- Kelvin is a good indicator of a plant bulb (as has been discussed this is no longer the case)
- Higher CRI bulbs have a reduced PAR output (in many cases bulbs this is still valid, however many custom phosphors allow for CRI correction now)


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## skylsdale (Aug 26, 2003)

I just had to add something, since the original title of this thread bothered me: there is no white actinic. The perceived color of "actinic" is extremely blue. Some bulbs are mixed with a 50/50 of 10K and 03...but there is no such thing as "white actinic."


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

I get confused whenever i think about this situation....why would actinic be bad for plants and good for corals? after all, aren't they all using the same sunlight?


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

hubbahubbahehe said:


> I get confused whenever i think about this situation....why would actinic be bad for plants and good for corals? after all, aren't they all using the same sunlight?


Same light different spectrum.... The sea water filters alot of it out and you are left with actinic to put it simply

Jason


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## malkore (Nov 3, 2003)

And, its the chlorophyll in plants that needs the peaks in blue/red spectrum. coral's don't have chlorphyll, so it makes sense that their spectrum needs are different.


FYI - when I run a 3000K PC screw-in in one half the tank, and a 6500k screw-in in the other half...the side with mostly 3000k light has more algae than the other size. Far from scientific proof, this is enough for me to shy away from anything under 5000k.


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## compulsion (Mar 2, 2004)

actinic are for marine 

think that answers it


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## cruizer (Jan 8, 2004)

OK, no one actually answered the question amandahugnkiss had:

Is actnic "bad" for plants, or jsut "unnessary?"

I have a NO Plant bulb, which is a nice pink color. With that, on the dual strip light, I have a 50/50 actinic (I bought it this way from another planter). The actinic seems to nicely cancel out the color of the pink plant bulb. I have not noticed any adverse effects on my plants because of this setup (this strip is also in conjunction with a 55W PC).


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

cruizer, what plants do you have growing in this tank? do you have a thread on it?


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## cruizer (Jan 8, 2004)

I have the following plants:
- Anubias Coffeefolia
- Banana Plant
- Cryptocoryne Wendtii De Witt
- Foxtail - Green
- Foxtail - Red
- Hygro - Tropic Sunset
- Java Fern
- Moneywort
- Ricca Fluitans
- Water Sprite
- Water Wisteria
- Tiger Lotus
- Ludwigia Reopens
- Corkscrew Vals
- and a few others that I recieved from wellbiz that I keep losing the names too.

An outdated plant page that I haven't even added the new plants to yet: Plant Page

The plants wellbiz sent me: Set 1 Set 2

And a pic right after the plants were added, taken about a month ago: Pic

About 2 weeks ago, I added the double strip light. I don't know the specifics on the bulbs exactly, but I can look and post them when I get home if needed. I really need to get an update pic. The plants are now towering and overgrowing the top of the tank. The algae problem seems to be almost gone, and I seem to have gotten rid of the slight greeness to my water.


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## cruizer (Jan 8, 2004)

Looks like no one wants to even touch this. 
Well, using my "unscientific data" I will say that actinic does NO harm to plants. As all my plants are thriving and flourishing. But then again, remember that at the same time, I added a Plant Grow light.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

i have a 50/50 32 watt over a ten gallon. it creates a very nice color....for reefs haha...it looks funky over a planted tank, but I'm going to give it a try and report the results...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

based on your website it looks like you have one hood...do you have 1 x 55w???? or 2?


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## Fat Guy (Nov 19, 2003)

cruizer said:


> OK, no one actually answered the question amandahugnkiss had:



...... Reread this thread.

This was answered in a gagillion different ways 



pop pop pop <kearnal> pop


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

HAHAH i just gotta say, i love you Fat Guy. *BIG HUG*


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## cruizer (Jan 8, 2004)

Well I haven't seen the answer to wether actinic is bad or unnessary. OK, you said it was bad, but that was before her question of bad or unessary. There's alot of talk about actinic popcorn though. I assume that if it is bad for plants, I would notice some ill effects on my plants from the last two weeks, when in fact, I haven't.

Anyways Hubba, I haven't updaed the site in a couple weeks. The stock hood for the tank was converted into a 55W PC. I bought a dual floruscent stip light from a member here that houses a plant growth light, and a 50/50 actinic.


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

cruizer said:


> Well I haven't seen the answer to wether actinic is bad or unnessary. OK, you said it was bad, but that was before her question of bad or unessary. There's alot of talk about actinic popcorn though. I assume that if it is bad for plants, I would notice some ill effects on my plants from the last two weeks, when in fact, I haven't.
> 
> Anyways Hubba, I haven't updaed the site in a couple weeks. The stock hood for the tank was converted into a 55W PC. I bought a dual floruscent stip light from a member here that houses a plant growth light, and a 50/50 actinic.


If the actinic is a blue bulb which is should be then do not use it.... It will grow great corals and hard algae in SW but not FW plants... They can and usually do cause algae in FW tanks....

Jason


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

Actinic is not BAD for plants... However it does absolutely nothing to benefit them. The spectrum of light that is output from an actinic bulb is sooooo far into the blue that it is beyond the usable spectrum for photosythensis.

Now, other forms of aquatic life can use this spectrum, such as algaes, diatoms, etc.

So while this light may not harm your plants at all, this light may not be helping anything either.


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## rkundla (Mar 25, 2004)

malkore said:


> And, its the chlorophyll in plants that needs the peaks in blue/red spectrum. coral's don't have chlorphyll, so it makes sense that their spectrum needs are different.


Actually, it is not the corals themselves, but the zooxanthellae inside the corals that use the light for photosynthesis. The zooxanthellae are tuned more to the blue wavelenghts of light for their primary means of photosynthesis because red wavelenghts don't penetrate deep water.


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## rkundla (Mar 25, 2004)

GDominy said:


> Actinic is not BAD for plants... However it does absolutely nothing to benefit them. The spectrum of light that is output from an actinic bulb is sooooo far into the blue that it is beyond the usable spectrum for photosythensis.
> 
> Now, other forms of aquatic life can use this spectrum, such as algaes, diatoms, etc.
> 
> So while this light may not harm your plants at all, this light may not be helping anything either.


GDominy has the right answer.

Actinic light will grow plants, but not *optimally*. Shallow and terrestrial plants also require some of the red wavelengths for proper growth and reproduction. 

Algae takes over in mostly actinic light because the higher order plants are not able to photosynthesize optimally in unbalanced light.

The best test would be a long tank, growing the same plant with three bulbs, one red (near infrared), one white (6700K) and one actinic blue. That test would go a long way to setting everyone straight on how light types affect plant growth and health.

Anybody got a spare tank, some plants and different color bulbs? :wink: 

Ron


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

Actually, yes, and I have already done something similar.

I ran a test using Actinic Blue (430 nanometer), 2700k, 5000k, and 6500k bulbs and came up with very different results.

My test was performed using dwarf sagitaria in the same tank, same water conditions, same substrate, etc.

Actinic Blue (30 Watt) - Plants wilted and died after 4 weeks, brown diatoms took over as well as a hard brown spot algae I could not identify. This algae was localized under the bulb and was clearly a result of the light source (the algae dissapeared when it came into contact with a better light source)

2700k (approximately 36 watts, 3 x 12 watt bulbs) - Plant growth was slow, however the plants were growing. Softer Green algae's were able to grow in these conditions, as well as green spot algae. These bulbs were not optimal plant bulbs, and were simply cheap screw in compact flourescent bulbs

5000k, 6500k - No appreciable difference in plant growth between the two colours, minimal algae growth by comparison to the previous two examples. Plant growth was consistent and the sagitaria was able to outgrow the algae.


Now this was hardly a scientific approach, as it really was more of a personal experiment then anything, but you get the idea.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

how bout cool whites? anyone use those and see if they work?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

by the way, the cool whites i'm talking about are 4100K regulars from Home Depot


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## wellbiz (Aug 6, 2003)

hubbahubbahehe said:


> by the way, the cool whites i'm talking about are 4100K regulars from Home Depot


IME they are very yellow looking, however they will keep plants alive and growing very slowly, just not optimal compared to what you can get in a higher K rating.

jason


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

Has anyone tried using 10,000k only? I have two 6700k and two 10,000k. I was wondering if 4 10,000K pcs would look good and grow plants well. I like the brightness of the 10,000k but the colors of fish and plants might look washed out.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

turn off the 6700K bulbs and tell us what you think of the 10K alone


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## Urkevitz (Jan 12, 2004)

I don't like the 10,000k alone it is not warm enough for me it looks too sterile. I think it might look too white with just 10,000k.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

thanks Urkevitz! IMHO, the 8800K bulbs are the best!


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## GDominy (Jul 30, 2002)

I mix the GE 9325k and my Hagen Power Glo 18000k bulbs. This produces a verrrrry pink/purple light and really highlights colours. Definately does not look natural, but makes it pretty easy to take pictures.


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## compulsion (Mar 2, 2004)

erm... has anyone ever used 4000k MH's? instead of 10000k etc etc

and your reason why?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

THE 4000 mh'S ARE yellowish...imo it doesn't look good, but there are people that do use them


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