# L. 'Pantanal' stunting



## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

How's your micro dosing? 

I'd go really heavy on micros for a while and see where that gets you.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

mrbelvedere said:


> How's your micro dosing?
> 
> I'd go really heavy on micros for a while and see where that gets you.


I am dosing 3 ml per day of Aquacare Plant Nutrition (aka. Tropica Master Grow).

I also dose 3 ml per day of Flourish Iron.

I do a modified EI regime where I dose everything every day. But, I will take that advice into consideration...


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## mrbelvedere (Nov 15, 2005)

Your micros seem to be in order. But I assumed you had already thought of that. You've been doing this for a while, and I'm sure you know what you are doing. 

On a related matter, my L. inclinata var. verticillata "Araguaia" (they are practically the same plant) is doing the same thing on a smaller level. 

I keep it in my 10 gal. It's growing well, just seems to have smaller leaves.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Yeah it is really weird to see one stem of the species get all funky looking while the others keep on trucking like everything is fine. Who knows, I guess for now I will just watch and learn.. I am going to start some Ludwigia 'Guinea' next week though so I want to try and get on top of these sorts of issues.. I understand that is a similarly finicky plant.


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## AaronT (Apr 11, 2004)

It sounds to me like you may have been low on calcium or potassium. The curled new growth is a classic sign that one or the other is deficient. Is your water on the soft side? I would suspect so. The water change added some more GH back into the water column. That's been my experience with that plant. The Ludwigia sp. 'Guinea' is not hard to grow. Don't let it get shaded and it grows very well.


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Aaron, that sounds like a pretty good guess. My water is straight RO that I reconstitute with GH Booster. I used to add baking soda for KH but have stopped in light of some recent discussions about 0 KH. 

When I dose GH Booster I aim for a Gh of around 5. 

I think this next time when I go two weeks I will keep an eye on GH and see if it moves..

As for potassium I get it in the KNO3 and KH2PO4 as well as the GH booster product, but anything is possible. 

I think your idea about calcium seems most likely since it is ONLY dosed once right after the water change.

Thanks..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Can you say CO2?

Make sure you trim it and keep in the mist, near the outflow.

It has stunted for many folks , but, they accuse many things, all of which have little patterns, except, the demon CO2:icon_evil 

Do the water change and up the CO2, it's a fast growing weed and is very responsive to CO2 levels.

If anyone doubts my pantanal growing ability, you should see the plants I grow and toss out regularly. It's a weed, but is funny about the CO2, much like Tonia and Erio's etc.

Not sure if many of you are aware of this deficiency sign: CO2 stressed plants form smaller sometimes stunted tips. You can where the CO2 was low and where you added more later and then lowered it etc over time on a stem plant.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Wö£fëñxXx (Dec 2, 2003)

I have been growing L. Pantanal for years, stunting is caused by deficient C02... E. Stellata is much the same way, then R. Vietnam, stunting is a classic sign of poor C02....


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> E. Stellata is much the same way


Oh yeah!

That plant is always the CO2 indicator in my aquarium. Whenever the plant's growth seems to slow down, or small holes begin to appear in it's leaves, I know it is time to double check the CO2 level.

Mike


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Keep mental or manual notes on the response to good CO2, often it clears up those supposed Ca, K, Fe deficencies "symptoms".

If you look back at a journal over time, you will find a definite pattern with CO2.

Unlike the nutrients which are very easy to add and rule out, you simply add more, many get complacent with CO2, testing issues are problematic with CO2 etc,. a water change and dosing thereafter will re set the nutrients very easily.

So you can rule those out effectively, light is fairly stable, so that leaves CO2......

Mild declines will stunt plants, large ones will induce algae.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

I am still struggling with L. Pantanal. I went back to weekly water changes and it recovered very well for a few weeks but now is back to looking pretty pathetic.

I don't get the gnarled tops anymore, just smallish growth and tips that curl under.. 

Tom I have to say that after all this time I still have a really hard time believing that my CO2 is the problem.

I am pushing three bubbles per second into a JBJ ceramic diffuser which is right under the spray bar so bubbles are blown directly onto the pantanal.

Other supposedly hard to grow plants like L. guinea are doing just fine.

I guess even if it IS the Co2, how can I get more in the tank?? I can't turn it up higher or fish immediately begin gasping. 

Not saying you're wrong just seems really, really hard to believe.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Did you ever try the calcium chloride supplement?


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

Hi Betowess.. I dose Barr's GH Booster to about 5 dGH. I haven't dosed any more than that.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

If you are doing EI, GH, cranking to CO2 and mist is hitting the plant, then it's something like copper or high sodium etc in the tap.
What about KH?

I and the other folks here can reproduce good growth time and time again.
But we have moderate to soft KH's.
That's about the only other items left, something funky in the tap, high KH etc.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

I don't use tap. 100% RO.

KH is 3.

I am doing EI but a modified form where I dose less daily instead of more every other day.. I think I am going to try more nutrients. I have a feeling I am at the bottom end of acceptability for nutrient levels.. I get green spot from time to time.. I am going to try and push NO3 up to closer to 20 - 30 ppm, PO4 closer to 4 to 5 ppm, increase iron dosing from 2ml per day to 3, possibly 4. Increase TMG dosing from 3 ml per day to 6 ml per day.. see what happens..


I will update this thread if/when I figure it out.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well KH is now ruled out.
CO2 is all that's left.
GSA and good PO4 dosing means CO2.
Stunting of this plant in general means CO2.

That's 2 CO2 strikes.

I think you might want to try dosing good 2-3x a week and trying 2 water changes a week perhaps.

If you are more curious, then try dosing more nutrients 3x a week.
Your old routine was a bit light. New one sounds about right, if....the CO2 is good.

Regards, 

Tom Barr


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## banderbe (Oct 10, 2005)

I added a Mini 606 right above the ceramic diffuser and now the tank is full of ultra-tiny microscopic bubbles everywhere.. much better than before, so we'll see if this makes a difference.. also going to make a few more changes.. I'll detail them eventually..


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Rock n Roll. With the higher dosing and the mist blasting, it'll be hard to louse up any plant species.

You should definitely see good growth now.
It takes a few adjustments to believe some of the things I tell folks, but afterwards, they do believe me if they try it.

I'm sure you will get results based on the mist factor and the tank is rather small, so the mixing is good through the tank.
Everything is ruled out and using ERO makes it even more reliable for ruling out Tap water issues also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## kekon (Nov 2, 2006)

> I get green spot from time to time.. I am going to try and push NO3 up to closer to 20 - 30 ppm, PO4 closer to 4 to 5 ppm,


It won't help. The higher NO3 you add the more stunting you will see. Your CO2 is good and it's not the cause of stunting. I dosed tons of CO2 and it didn't improve anything. I bet the stunted plant will be healthy if you add less NO3 and keep potassium unchanged.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

kekon said:


> It won't help. The higher NO3 you add the more stunting you will see. Your CO2 is good and it's not the cause of stunting. I dosed tons of CO2 and it didn't improve anything. I bet the stunted plant will be healthy if you add less NO3 and keep potassium unchanged.


Really?

Where is this stunting I'm suppose to see then?
I get 6" per week growth. Excellnt color, and the entire SAPS and SFBAAPS club saw the tank full of it..........

How can you suggest the CO2 is good over the entire day length when it can change 10 fold in 1 hour? Can NO3, K+ or any other nutrient change that much that fast?

All it takes are few examples where this plant is growing like a weed at high NO3 to disprove your statement of hypothesis. It does not say you personally have issues with adding more NO3 and what you observe, but it does plainly and clearly falsify that hypothesis. Which is to say it must be rejected as the cause.

And you must look for an alternative reason for the stunting response in your tank. Your correlation does correlate in other folk's aquariums.

I've had it stunt and simply adjusted the CO2, reduced the light, and it's back to growing like mad.

A tank a few years ago:









And again:









When you are growing 20-40 stems of a plant 4-6" a week, good color etc...and you are adding EI and even more PO4, sort of dismissed such claims...............and many folks on line have seen my tanks, as well as have received the plants from me.

I'm not saying you cannot grow the plant with less, but the fact of the matter is that higher NO3 does not induce stunting in a single plant species I've seen to date.

Why should it?

I've been growing this weed for a long time now, maybe 3-4 years in several tanks, it's a weed. Others report the same. Local club members also have similar reports. 

Fertigation is often used in aquarium plant culture and in hydroponic solutions, but they have no CO2 limitation.

What ppm's of N are present in those solutions?
Here's some examples:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3u...yeSSDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8

150-300ppm are typical ranges for NO3............

NO3 is easily translocated, to and from the tips/roots, and fertigation rules out any transport.

As far green spot algae, I have not clean my glass, nor needed to for 3-6 months at a time. So CO2/PO4 at higher levels seems to do the trick, not in just one tank etc, rather.......all 5 aquariums I have.

We figured out GSA about 10 years ago on the APD.
Stephan M. from Malta came up with the high PO4 theory on GSA.
Seems to work, but poor CO2 is also a factor and helps encourage GSA.

So if it's not CO2, and I have induced stunting, as well as others here and locally in our club, perhaps by limiting NO3, you are indirectly influcing the CO2 demand, eg, NO3 limitation is now stronger than CO2 limitation?

The same approach can and has been done with PO4 used to reduce CO2 demand, that was why folks had success in the past using PMDD. However, when CO2 was accounted for, we found that excess N, P, Fe etc caused no algae.

Now the limiting/lower is better crowd decides it's stunting plant tips, which is virtually a clear sign of CO2 issue. If it is not a CO2, you'd still better really look long and hard at CO2 before coming to any sort of conclusion.

I can easily measure NO3, PO4 etc with test kits, CO2 is quite another matter.

Even there, but eyeballing the levels is often done anyway, the plants are the test kits and we add a bit more CO2 to make sure and watch.
Then repeat.

I'm quite successful with this plant, I also know it may be grown well at lower NO3 ppms as well, particularly if you use MS or ADA AS etc. But does it stunt at higher NO3 due only to NO3 dosing?

Clearly not.

You are welcome to offer some alternative to why my tank and many others grow the plant well at such ppm's of NO3 without stunting. We know it's not the KNO3 dosing, the sediment, high/low light(my larger tank has 2.1 w/gal x 10 hours + feed 2-3x a day with a good sized fish load, not including the KNO3 dosing at 2-2.5 tsp 3x a week, adding about 30-35ppm per week or more with fish food).

Tonia is a huge forest, P stellata grows like a weed, and the 2.1 w/gal of light is about 12=14' off the water in a 24' deep tank, hardly high light aquarium.

CO2?

Next post.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The L pantanal stunted 2x, but not with any thing to do with KNO3.........

In both cases, as well as other folks here who have grown it.........

CO2 was less than optimal.
I wanted to compare my mazzei venturi method at the same bps rate as the disc method supported by ADA and compare.

I got stunting in all species, leaf loss, and finally BBA.
I also had the same result when the disc where not clearly frequently leading to poor CO2 exchange due to larger bubbles etc.

I decided to redo the aquarium one day, I removed most of the biomass, uprooted too much of the plants. It took about a month for the tank to settle back down and no amount of CO2/nutrients, water changes, light changes, made much difference, I simply had to wait.

Plants stunted then as well.

I have adjusted the CO2 well now and everything is fine, but the KNO3 dosing was the same and has been, I also add 1 teaspoon of KH2PO4, at 2:1 KNO3/KH2PO4 for the last year in this tank.

Some have suggested a certain NO3/PO4 ratio is important, blah.......I see no such evidence.

what is really important is keeping good gardening routines, well pruned, trimmed, not too much all at once, CO2 CO2 and CO2, using reasonable light, limiting light rather nutrients to control growth and algae, CO2 flexibility etc........

Light is much easier to control and much more stable, easier to test and measure/compare than nutrients. You only test it 1-2x a year, and test different spots etc. That's it.

Nutrients? 
Much harder, but you can do EI methods and adjust the ratios/weights to suit whatever range of ppm's mM you are interested in for any nutrient and see, and you can do 80-90% water changes to remove any left overs.

To remove any organic issues, activated carbon can be added and changed out once a month or two etc.

And so on..........

Still, this plant really responds very strongly to CO2 and you can repeat it and go back and have it start growing again once you stunt it and have it return to normal using nothing else other than CO2, this is a testable hypothesis. 

One I do suggest other folks to try and see for themselves.

Riccia is one of the oldest CO2 response plants we found.
It will pearl well if the CO2 is good, not so well if at all if not.
I used it for many years, but it's weedy and gets into everything.

Over time, I became pretty good at looking at plants and tanks to see what and where the issues might be. 

After 3-4 years, in both high light(the 1st pic is from a 5.5 W gal tank, the lower one is the 2.1w/gal, (340 mic mol vs 80 micmols at the tops of the plants), I have a pretty good understanding of the species.
It's still a weed, but the is pretty and worth it for me to bother with:tongue:

Not as bad as Riccia. Tonia responds similarly also.
Both do well in lower nutrient water column ppm's also, and grow slower, I know several that do ADA AS and do that, but the plants still have access to a source of rich N/P in the sediments.

So the total is similar, the plant pics above both use ADA AS, so they are not limited in the water column or the sediment, so the total N is really high.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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