# Ferts bought on line vs ferts locally



## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I found this info on the internet. Correct me if I am wrong.
These products can be found at a hardware store. 
CaSO4 = Plaster paris
CaCL2 = Pool calcium increaser
Mg2SO4 = Epsom salt
KCI = muriate of potash
KNO3 = stump remover
K2SO4 = all green


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## MarioMaster (Jul 31, 2008)

I don't know that they'd be any more "natural" than buying premixed fertilizer - you'd just be adding the chemicals separately rather than all at once


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

All those things you mentioned are synthesized in a laboratory. A "natural" alternative to ferts would be things like compost, urine, feces, fish meal, that sort of thing. And I DON'T recommend putting those things in your aquarium! :icon_eek:


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Perhaps the title is wrong. These are alternatives to ferts that I can only find on line.

I read someone used Plaster paris for his snails.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

No, many salts are mined, not artificially made, processed or synthesized.
If you wanna go organic and sustainable, see non CO2 methods, use fish waste and use composted soils.

Azolla composted would be good also due to the excellent protein profile, and if you are going to play this organic sustainable approach, you also need to realize something..........this goes for Vegan people also, you cannot grow plants and not have fish or agriculture......you need the critters to make the waste to feed the cycle.

There's no way you can farm organically without organic manure, and you need quite a bit.

Good treatment of the animals is a must IMO, same with the fish, and you should also consider organic feed if that whole thing is your game.

Azolla makes for an ideal plant to use for feed(no added N fertilizers, P can come from organic Chicken manure etc).

Holistic thinking, consider the entire pathway, not just some whacky agenda not based on anything but personal views about how terrible the act of eating something else might be, you frigging yack-avist eat and murder plants. You are a heterotroph, you have to eat other living material, dead or not. Hippycritical to say one form of life is more deserving of respect than others..............

If life is really that precious, then you should rail against every fish enslaving, fish killing hobbyists on the web, because we all do it, it's part of the reality in this hobby, try as we might, we all kill fish in this hobby is effort to keep them. Same deal with feeding live foods.
The horror of killing those worms and shrimp..............

You cannot logically have it both ways.

You need to consider the entire picture about how a system works together in natural and manipulated systems like agriculture/aquaculture, not just the parts you might find palatable. Folks need to make things black and white I guess but anyone with sense knows nothing is that way in life.

Why stop at fertilizers?
Why not fish food?
Why not sediments that are truly organic?
Liquid ferts?
Stands?
Tanks?
Filters?
Electrical sources that are sustainable?

These things can be done................so how far are you willing to take this?
Non CO2 is about the best solution thus far.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Honestly, yes, you can use those items. But I find my time to be valuable. Driving around town to 8 places to get the ferts I need does NOT save you any money. Ordering online took me 3 minutes and got everything I will need for my 29g tank for well over a year. 20 bucks shipped.


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

www.aquariumfertilizers.com


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

I am to old to think of going completely organic. Tried being vegetarian but got ill. Just looking for cheap alternatives to buying on line, for cost of shipping is going up. I thought all of the substitutes could be found at the hardware store and 1 is within 7 miles from me, thus might be cheaper.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

From greenleafaquariums.com you could get everything for ~30 bucks shipped.

My guess is that to buy all of those(and doubt 1 store will have them all) would cost close to that, easily. Plus, you are getting them in less than ideal form. For instance: KCL is a pain to mix. It takes forever to disolve. 

If you are going to dose, you need to dose micros too. Those won't cover it. If you don't but online you'd have to go with a liquid which is like throwing your money away. I'm telling you, honestly having tried to cut the corners and save a buck--just buy them this way. You'll get exactly what you want and it will be easy to dose. You won't have to dig up 23423 articles to figure out what the concentration of these are.


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## Squawkbert (Aug 21, 2008)

Most stump removers I've seen lately are NOT KNO3, so be careful there.

Also - Mg2SO4 comes as Mg2SO4*7H2O


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## Saraja87 (Jul 18, 2007)

My LFS grows excellent plants with natural river clay and fish waste. Doesn't get much more organic than that and it's cheap and easy.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Well in my tank I have flourite. There is a lot of debris on the bottom, even after vacuuming it thoroughly. I guess now it is nothing to be concerned about. 

I have been trying the Diane Walsted method, dirt under pebbles, but it isn't working for me. 

Debating weather to buy a lot of ferts or make a diy co2. Problem is my Kh is very low. Tis 0 to 2. Have been told can do but have to do it very carefully. 

If I get ferts it seems best to buy them on line. For you only have to buy a pound of items and I don't need much for my 29 gallon tank.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

the list you posted is pretty much what we bought online. It's not a big deal... if you do the math, ordering online & going to buy all those chemicals, if you can find them, will cost you about the same. The online stuff might be more pure though.

if you want to go natural, use topsoil for a substrate and sunlight. About as natural as you can get in the hobby.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

River loam is far more natural and more effective than topsoil, which is rarely organic. Need a river and decent clean place to collect it though. 

It's already mineralized and has the bacteria.


Seems to me, if you are having issues with a non CO2 method, it's not likely due to anything with nutrients, rather, you likely are doing water changes and have not added enough plants right at the start. And some patience goes a long way.

If you like to prune and garden, then CO2 is a good method.
And you can do all the water changes you want.

You can also do dosing for a non CO2 tank using a water column method that's easy:

http://www.barrreport.com/estimative-index/2817-non-co2-methods.html

You dose perhaps once a week or 2-3x a month etc, and then only a small amount. *No water changes.*.

That's the biggest failing of folks that have issues with this non CO2 method.

You can dose either location, the water column or the sediment(or better yet and little of both). The sediment is nice because you need not remember to dose etc, but I think you can grow more species and have better growth dosing the water column.

This is because many species are very competitive whereas some are not for some nutrients, some lack roots also. In older mature high fish load tanks, this is not an issue(and you can easily guess why).

Make sure to pack the tank full of easier to grow plants, have about 10-20% floating leaves etc. Add water for evaporation loss only.
It's not hard and there are fairly basic reasons for things not going well.

Here's a small tank with onyx sand, no soil etc that's about 1 year old with some Cherry shrimp and a Killi pair.










Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

ashappar said:


> hope you arent saying that liquid trace mixes are a waste of $$
> 
> try as I might - I cannot get CSM+B to perform as well as TMG or Flourish. Wish I could, CSM+B is much cheaper in comparison. Perhaps growth rate has something to do with it, perhaps not. Liquid trace mixes just work much better for me - especially long term in a growout environment.


Have you tested this definitively or is this just a "gut" feeling? And if the latter how many months did you use each of them to develop this feeling? For example did you go to using just CSM+B for your micro/traces dosing, mixed well in water and dosed, and without changing anything else in your tank for 2-3 months, and then tried the same with TMG or Flourish to see an end comparison? 

I'm not shooting you down as I have not enough experience to know either way but from a lot of reading here and elsewhere it's my understanding that the three (CSM+B, TMG, Flourish) overlap in terms of main ingredients in a huge way and are practically interchangeable. I hear how some people have a strong affection for TMG but it's also seemed more anecdotal than based on some side by side testing and careful comparison. 

And I guess the last question would be even if something like TMG proved "better" are we talking hugely better that would justify the cost difference? For example, are some plants that just barely grow with CSM+B take off and thrive in TMG? Or is it just maybe the plants grow 10-20% faster? 

In all honesty I've been going with CSM+B for my micro/traces doing in an EI regime for a couple of months now and if my plants grew any faster I'd be pruning almost every night! (no thanks!)


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

+1 with Richard here.

When I dosed CSM+B dry, I noticed that it would never completely dissolve by the time it hit the bottom of the tank.

Now I have just the right amount dissolved in a bottle of water so one squirt will be enough. I do have to shake it up lightly before I dose...there seems to be a slight cloudiness or sediment at the bottom once I do shake it up...but since then, dosing CSM+B in a pre-dissolve form has had a better effect than dosing it dry.


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

epicfish said:


> +1 with Richard here.
> 
> When I dosed CSM+B dry, I noticed that it would never completely dissolve by the time it hit the bottom of the tank.
> 
> Now I have just the right amount dissolved in a bottle of water so one squirt will be enough. I do have to shake it up lightly before I dose...there seems to be a slight cloudiness or sediment at the bottom once I do shake it up...but since then, dosing CSM+B in a pre-dissolve form has had a better effect than dosing it dry.


I was a big proponent on simply dry dosing and thought it humorous to see others talk of getting the jeebies when their fish seemingly would try to eat the dry dose salts and minerals as it was added. But like you saw that a good portion would drop undissolved to the substrate and sit there---maybe dissolving later on but still....

My feeling was that since flow and water movement is so important in CO2 dispersement how can the dosing of the macros and micros be any different in getting those nutrients properly distributed around the tank and the plants? I've since been using an empty Del Monte Fruit Jar (like this one:








in which I'll scoop out about a half jar of tank water, then measure out either my CSM+B and Fe chelate on micro days, or macros dry ferts on macro dosing days, then close it and shake it up good until practically all the dry ferts are dissolved. Then pour that into the tank right in front of my Koralia circulation pump.

All that said I know that a lot of people dry dose with no problems and with proper water flow and movement perhaps once it's dissolved even sitting there on the substrate it gets circulated around enough.

When I leave town on business trips I plan to leave my dry fert doses pre-measured out in one of those daily pill minder containers and have my wife simply open the right day and dump the dry dose right into the tank. :biggrin:


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dry vs liquid will not matter.

Differences between traces are tougher to quantify.
Chelator type, KH, plant biomass and species, frequency and consistency of the dosing as well as the upstream nutrients/CO2........

The appearance and coloration can change some with different types of traces. I tend to add a lot and frequently, long before it was en vogue, but back then everyone said excess Fe caused algae also 

Most all traces are mined from sulfate metal salts, these are chelated, which the chelators are organic, but synthesized( the 1940'S or so).

It's not hard to dry mix an all in one mix and toss that into a tank, but the PO4 and Fe tend to form an insouble precipitate in more concentrated liquids, particularly so with higher KH's.

The other issue with traces is really how long the they stay in bioavailable forms. While some might have more energy holding the metal in solution(thus bioavailable for long time frames), there is a slight cost for this. Plants do not need much traces, but they easier it is to get them, the better. Still, over all, there are far more significant issues about growth than the bond strength holding a metal. 

You'd have trouble doing all this organically in the water column, but there are some possible methods to do so. Nothing commercially available though. It would not be nearly as effective though(which is also why is is not available in the hobby).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## rich815 (May 21, 2008)

ashappar said:


> feel free to shoot it down guys, I wont get pouty about it :icon_wink
> 
> over a period of a couple of years I switched between CSM+B and liquid mixes and decided to stay with TMG / Flourish. Ive tried various trace mixes on the same sp. and am always happier with the results using commercial liquid trace mix. Specifically I prefer TMG over flourish and flourish over CSM+B
> 
> ...


Very nice. Didn't I get some of that 'Cuba' from you a few weeks back? They are doing pretty good. But not quite as colorful as that.

Hmmm......TMG, eh? :hihi:


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

...crap. I think I might have to switch to TMG now just to see how the plants do. =/


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

Nice discussion of micros. I have to dose nearly double EI of CSM+B to not see stunting and deformities. I'm keen on trying something other than, or in addition to CSM+B when it comes time to order more fertz.



plantbrain said:


> There's no way you can farm organically without organic manure, and you need quite a bit.


I hope you're using manure in the broad sense to include green manures and animal manures. If you just meant animal manures, then that statement is demonstrably false. I've seen great long-term results just using crop rotations and mixed plantings involving green manures in the tropics.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

macclellan said:


> Nice discussion of micros. I have to dose nearly double EI of CSM+B to not see stunting and deformities. I'm keen on trying something other than, or in addition to CSM+B when it comes time to order more fertz.


Since we're on the subject-- I've noticed that CSM+B doesn't dissolve in a cup of tank water the way that all the macros do. Does anyone know why that is? No matter how much shaking or stirring I involve, there will always be little micro pebbles at the bottom of the dixie cup I use to mix my ferts in. Yet, all of the macros dissolve right away, EASILY, without any stirring once I dump them in the cup.

Is CSM+B not all it's cracked up to be?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Hmm, TMG eh? Might have to give it a try as well. 

NOt to go off topic but this thread is all over the place anyway:

Let's hear more talk about dissolving trace mix. 

I drop my csm+b right in the tank and let it settle, no worries. Someone mentioned the importance of CO2 dispersion, well that's because it's lighter than water and will leave the tank eventually if not totally dissolved first. With an inline reactor there should be no issue with CO2 dispersion as long as the water column is moving. Gravity keeps your trace mix on the substrate until it dissolves then the circulation of the water column takes over. 

I've taken some Fe measurements pretty soon after dosing and it seems to register well up near 1ppm within the hour. Would still like to hear more on this though, maybe I should premix it, I've just never understood why so many peoples' EI regime is all tspns until you get to the trace mix (10ml yada yada).


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

It takes a larger volume of water to fully dissolve, you are basically trying to stuff an elephant foot into your kid's shoe. And some of those larger chunks probably need some time as well.


Church said:


> Since we're on the subject-- I've noticed that CSM+B doesn't dissolve in a cup of tank water the way that all the macros do. Does anyone know why that is? No matter how much shaking or stirring I involve, there will always be little micro pebbles at the bottom of the dixie cup I use to mix my ferts in. Yet, all of the macros dissolve right away, EASILY, without any stirring once I dump them in the cup.
> 
> Is CSM+B not all it's cracked up to be?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

ashappar said:


> Tom, weren't you kicking around the idea of a releasing a higher performing DIY trace mix at one time?


Yes, I use it right now, but it'll be a few till they make it and it gets to market.
TMG has given me the best results, but it can be tweaked further.

It takes time to see differences with traces, but at 70$ for 5 liters, it's too dang much $$$.

CMS has never given the same results when you address the other variables independently. Many in the local clubs over the years reported similar observations.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

jaidexl said:


> It takes a larger volume of water to fully dissolve, you are basically trying to stuff an elephant foot into your kid's shoe. And some of those larger chunks probably need some time as well.


But if this were the case, then wouldn't the water get fairly colored and opaque before those remaining micro-pebbles sunk to the bottom? I mean, it doesn't seem like a case of the volume of solvent being less than the solubility of the CSM+B requires, but then again I'm no chemist.

Maybe it would dissolve fully in a larger cup, but I'm not interested in experimenting. I just drop my dose in the cup of tank water, stir it up with a bamboo skewer, then dump it into the tank with any remaining undissolved pebbles, and that seems to work fine for me...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

macclellan said:


> I hope you're using manure in the broad sense to include green manures and animal manures. If you just meant animal manures, then that statement is demonstrably false. I've seen great long-term results just using crop rotations and mixed plantings involving green manures in the tropics.


So have I, but that's not where I grow crops nor where most of the production is. Nor is it profitable for all crops types or locations where labor cost are far higher. Such details make huge differences which is wise I left the term vague.......

I prefer to use plants mostly/as much as we can.

Rice production using Azolla for N and ducks/water fowl for PO4 has been going on for 1000's of years. You could use some plants as green manure for PO4, but you will not get good results, at least with many crops and in northern regions without animal manures. And......Duck is tasty.
People can eat Azolla as well, it's very digestible and better for you than than soy beans. 

The trade off there with animals is feed rotations, lots of feed for the animals etc. Farm animals also are very effective for weed control.
I've seen well run systems in Europe and here using both, but I think if you want to turn a profit, which every farmer wants..........you really have to rely on animals to some degree. It can be done well under specific conditions, but you can take a beating $$$ wise, but you might not be worried about that.
Successful livestock use, breeding, manure management offers a lot more than hauling a lot of green manure, discing, weed management from Hades(good rotations can help here). Not everyone farms in the tropics and raises the same crops. Try it in Central CA valley. See if you can make $.
Try it in Germany. See if you can make $. Land, labor and fuel ain't cheap.

I like green manures, do not get me wrong, I freely advocate their use. I just think it's a bad idea to suggest 100% animal free methods which some do and go too far that way. Integrating is wiser IMO. 

Anyway, back to our tanks, the fish and smaller inverts add a significant amount, in some cases all of it, to our plants. So unless this is advocating fish free planted tanks, this is starting to get pretty far off topic.

Integrating fish and their waste(which comes from what? non organic fish food unless you make your own or get certified organic fish food somewhere), the non CO2 method really drives the entire sustainable approach home really well.

So for us, labor, cost, time, convenience, this is a no brainer.
Rather than change the ferts, change the method/rate of production.

I suppose you could raise Azolla also, dry it and add to the feed.
Grows chickens, Cows, and people, should do well for fish feed.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Church said:


> But if this were the case, then wouldn't the water get fairly colored and opaque before those remaining micro-pebbles sunk to the bottom? I mean, it doesn't seem like a case of the volume of solvent being less than the solubility of the CSM+B requires, but then again I'm no chemist.
> 
> Maybe it would dissolve fully in a larger cup, but I'm not interested in experimenting. I just drop my dose in the cup of tank water, stir it up with a bamboo skewer, then dump it into the tank with any remaining undissolved pebbles, and that seems to work fine for me...


Not sure, this is just what I've always assumed. CSM+B is one thing that's not listed on Chuck's calc so I don't know what the bottom line ratio is for solvent/CSM+B.

When I used to soak before dosing (rather than dumping dry), I would mix it up in a cup, pour half into the tank and refill, mix more and so on, until there was only a few grains left.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

rich815 said:


> www.aquariumfertilizers.com


Thanks for the link I got a quick response from him unlike what I got from Rex Griggs. Bought some ferts from Rex Griggs 2wks ago and didn't receive it or info on mailing date. For possible that it was left on my door step and stolen, since this has happened in the past.

To anybody whom read this I want tell you I found out that I hadn't received my order from Rex Griggs for he has been in the hospital.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Since you are local, you may consider coming to the AGA convention this Nov, it would help. Most are CO2 users.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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