# Easiest method of dealing with bba in low tech



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I know in the high tech tank, I would up the CO2. But this is in my low tech, low light, 125 gallon CA/SA tank. What should I do? I think I have enough plants in it now that the bba is no longer spreading. But how do I get rid of the stuff that's in there?

Parameters:
pH = 6.5
temp = 78 F
nitrate = 10 ppm
phosphates = 1 ppm
KH = 1
Gh = 2


I dose trace ferts once a week after a large water change.


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I haven't done this myself, but I read that the Excel OD method works for many. There is a large thread out there, do a quick search and you shall be rewarded.

Some fish also eat that stuff, like SAEs. Not sure if they fit in with your fishies.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I know about the Excel method, but if you reread my original post, this is for a 125 gallon tank. I would have to use a LOT of Excel. It would probably be almost as cheap for me to get pressurized CO2 than to OD Excel. :eek5: I think Seachem recommends 5 ml per 10 gallons, so I would have to use 10 mL 10 gallons. This means about I would use half of a 250 mL bottle per treatment. Based on even online prices, that would be about $5 a treament!


----------



## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Ah you are right... didn't think of that. 

I saw 2l (2000 ml) bottles on sale for like $18, that would be more like $1 a treatment, still, not cheap. Maybe spot treatments... dipping plants/deco in Excel solution... again not an option with large rooted plants.


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Some people have said they use a syringe to squirt the Excel directly on the BBA, just being sure not to exceed the amount that a whole tank can tolerate. They say that technique worked. I don't want to spend the time to find the posts that say that, but they do exist.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Are you doing water changes?
If so, stop!
SAE's are much more effective also in a planted non CO2 tank.

FYI, I've done many non CO2 tanks, never had BBA.

But I do not do weekly water changes etc either and always have SAe's shrimps etc and lots of plants from the start.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Hmmm....I may be doing too many water changes? I am doing a 40 - 50% change a week. I guess I'll cut that back now that the tank's plants are taking off.

Why would water changes cause BBA, Tom?


----------



## Ryzilla (Oct 29, 2005)

you know what? I just noticed that I have alot of BBA on my spraybar, but in one place it is dying. This is the place where I dose. SInce I took my power head out the Potassium Nitrate actually sits on the BBA for some time. I took the powerhead out about 5 days ago and the BBA is turning white. I think I am going to dose the Nitrate with a syringe on the BBA and see if it starts to die back.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Hmmm....I may be doing too many water changes? I am doing a 40 - 50% change a week. I guess I'll cut that back now that the tank's plants are taking off.
> 
> Why would water changes cause BBA, Tom?


Well there you go, stop it and pick off the algae, add a few SAE's and that will do it.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks, Tom, but I am still not understanding why water changes would encourage algae?

I have two bristlenose plecos and 1 bulldog pleco, and a Gibbey pleco and none of them touch the stuff. SAE's will eat BBA? The black bushy stuff?


----------



## Defchilde (Jul 12, 2005)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Thanks, Tom, but I am still not understanding why water changes would encourage algae?


I second this request, please explain!!!!!


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Wasserpest said:


> I saw 2l (2000 ml) bottles on sale for like $18, that would be more like $1 a treatment, still, not cheap. Maybe spot treatments... dipping plants/deco in Excel solution... again not an option with large rooted plants.


Wow, I would do that solution if I could get it for that price. The cheapest I have found it locally is $45 CDN. I can get it online for less, but then the shipping makes it either just as pricey or worse. I am using Excel in my 20 gallon, and we'll see what happens there.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Thanks, Tom, but I am still not understanding why water changes would encourage algae?
> 
> I have two bristlenose plecos and 1 bulldog pleco, and a Gibbey pleco and none of them touch the stuff. SAE's will eat BBA? The black bushy stuff?


Don't ask why, just do it if you want the issue resolved.

SAE's will definitely nibble and prevent it in non CO2 tanks if you stop those water changes.

Less work if your solution, seems weird, but it does work.

You can still do the no water changes and bomb with Excel also.

The water change flushes the tank with lots of fresh CO2 rich tap water.
This one time flux once a week favors the Algae, BBA likes slightly higher CO2ppms, around 5-10ppm seem optimal and flowing water.

Excel is a biocide at higher concentrations, like H2O2.
It's active ingredient is used for a number of things for this purpose.

It's selective and can kills fish and plants at higher levels and some species like Egeria.

I'm trying to get a test set up for it's selective usage for killing Egeria weeds but leaving the native species alone and enhancing their growth.

BBA will generally never grow in a non CO2 planted tank that gets no water changes, top off only.

Some folks have taken to changing their water late at night and then hopefully degased water come morning. Often it takes a little longer than 12 hours for that to occur, so they often still end up with BBA.

This is speculation, but it does make sense in the context of what is known about BBA and the method works and the hypothesis is supported by the many observations from folks over the years.

Something about what changes influences BBA, I know it's not the N, P, K, Traces, GH/KH, lighting(as long as it's suitable for a non CO2 plant tank).

So not too many things are left........
While some like to say I speculate, they do not offer up a better alternative hypothesis.

Plant density is one, you need a good well planted tank for this to work.
You also need a source of nutrients for the plants in a non CO2 tank, fish waste and soil/nutrient rich substrate can typically supply perhaps 80-100% of the nutrients, some plants will certainly benefit from KNO3/KH2PO4/Gh/Traces once a week or two or if you want to use inert substrates/lighter fish loads or the substrate is depeleted.

I've done both and they both are simple and easy to care for.
Dosing once a week, no water changes?
Is that(adding 2-3 things weekly) as hard as feeding the fish daily?
No.

So you can do the entire non CO2 method with inert substrate and not a ounce of soil, but you have to make sure you add things to the water column once a week.

When you add Excel, 1-2x a week and more is required, CO2 gas, 2-3x a week is required and so on.

Anything that increases the demand for nutrients must be added in the same relative proportion, so more light=> more CO2= more nutrients and so on......

Same thing, different direction: less light=> less CO2=> less nutrients.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## turbosaurus (Nov 19, 2005)

I've tried OD excel in the whole tank and it didn't work- I had to spot treat directly onto the algae with a syringe- that took care of it, but a higher concentration tank wide did absolutely squat, you gotta get right on it. 

SAEs will eat the stuff but only if they are starving and have no other option. I had them in a tank for ever and they never touched the stuff, I went on a 4 day weekend and didn't feed the fish (afraid a fish sitter would do more damage than good) and they had almost cleaned the place spotless.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> Don't ask why, just do it if you want the issue resolved.
> 
> SAE's will definitely nibble and prevent it in non CO2 tanks if you stop those water changes.
> 
> ...


Wow! Thanks a million for that explanation Tom. It totally makes sense to me now! I didn't put two and two together until your post. I realized that I missed on factor which I didn't post.

I used to change water only from a tub which naturally ages the water. But in an effort to lower my nitrate (few plants in the beginning) and on advice of cichlid forum members, I started doing large (50%) water changes, which meant adding dechlorinator and water straight out of the tap (about 30 gallons or so). It was at that time that I started getting rampant BBA. Prior to that, I wasn't getting any, or just a small amount of it.

Once again, thanks for your valuable input.:thumbsup:


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Just an update to this. It seems to be working. It's been 2 weeks since my last water change, and so far, the bba is receding. However, I am having a BGA outbreak though. And my nitrates are rising. Currently at 40 ppm and rising. If it gets any higher, I'll need to do a partial water change to get it back in line.


----------



## ikuzo (Jul 11, 2006)

that's the problem, low nitrates + high CO2 you get BBA, high nitrates you'll get BGA. i've read somewhere that Salvinia natans is a good nitrate absorber, they'll block the light though as they're floating plant.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I already have pounds and pounds of watersprite for that. They block the light and absorb nitrate, but they don't seem to be keeping the nitrate low enough.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Just an update to this. It seems to be working. It's been 2 weeks since my last water change, and so far, the bba is receding. However, I am having a BGA outbreak though. And my nitrates are rising. Currently at 40 ppm and rising. If it gets any higher, I'll need to do a partial water change to get it back in line.


No, you need less fish.

Non CO2 tanks are *balanced tanks*, they require you to have just enough fish or less, not too many. You will not get around this one without some trade offs.

The best thing, : Reduce fish load.
Next floating water sprite will mop up the NO3.
Add some K2SO4 also, about 1/4 teaspoon once a week.
If that does not work, you need to reduce the fish load/feedings.
You are not going to get around that issue.
It also helps the algae when you have fish loading that's too high.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Hmmm...can't really reduce fish load. It's not the number of fish that's the problem. I have 2 SA cichlids which are now all pushing 7 inches. And a 3rd one which is 5 inches. And a 5 inch Gibbey pleco. The rest are like 1/4" to 1/2" catfish. It's a 125 gallon. I can add the potassium, that's not a problem.

I guess I'm just going to have to sterilize the plants and cut the light way back to standard LFS tank levels if I can't get it sorted out. This is a FISH tank, and not a plant tank. The fish have sentimental value to me, not the plants. The plants were originally intended to reduce the work in maintenance by soaking up nitrates.

I guess now I know why all the cichlid keepers have rock only tanks, with very low light. 

I didn't realize a low tech tank would cause me way more headaches than my high tech tank.....


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Another quick update. I haven't given up yet....It's been 2 weeks since my last water change, and my nitrates are holding at 40 ppm steady, and the fish appear to be healthy. The BBA is mostly gone. Phosphates are at 4 PPM. I've reduced my high (1 WPG) lighting to 4 hours a day. For the other 8 hours, I am doing about .3 wpg with the Perfecto lights which came with the tank. I am dosing K and trace once a week. I am also picking off the BGA off the rocks and equipment, and removing plant leaves with BGA on them. We'll see how that goes....


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You can bomb with pills, with such low light, blackouts are not going to do much, but you might be able to beat the BGA back.

BBA should go away over time if you refrain from water changes.
Less light will work and still grow the mat of water sprite.

The other option: plant filter.
Use a wet dry type filter design with peace lilies growing out the top, these are very effective and need little light. 
Much like a refuge with the weeds being in the water except for roots, just in the filter.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Thanks once again for the valuable input, Tom. I've thinking about setting up a sump for some time now, for a tank of this size. Guess this just gives me more incentive.

So I guess my plan of attack is to:
1) increase the size of the watersprite coverage (just weed out the big plants and have the whole top grow over with little ones)
2) eventually, set up a wet/dry sump like a refugium

I guess I'll have to light up the sump quite well for the plants to be effective in nitrate consumption?


----------



## cjking (Aug 25, 2004)

If your nitrates are a problem you could try Biohome filter media. It claims to harbour bacteria which remove nitrates, in addition to the usual sorts. I used it when I set up my tank a long time ago, and I think it must be working because I now have to add nitrate to the water for the sake of the plants.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Bacteria are not as good as the plants, a simple plant filter external would do a better a better job. Larger tank, more plnts, less fish etc.

This is simply not a balanced tank if the NO3 keep rising.
That balance can be achieved with things like bacteria denitrifyers, more plants in remote locations, adding more plant biomass to the tank, getting a larger tank, reducing the fish population/feeding etc.


BGA is not so much from the NO3, it's from the excess organic loading in these cases.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

The nitrates have stabilized at 30 ppm, but the BGA continues to propagate quite rapidly. I've only done a 25% water change since I started this thread, and the readings I got last week were:

nitrate 30 ppm
phosphates 4 ppm
pH 6.2
KH 2
GH 3

Photoperiod has been cut back to 4 hours with 1 wpg, and 3 hours at .5 wpg. Plant growth has slowed noticeably, but the BGA has not.

I am cleaning as much as I can twice a week. I am wondering if I should try a BO?


----------



## beznsarah (Aug 1, 2006)

Why don't you post a full tank picture of your tank to give an idea of the plant mass in there. 

I'm having algae issues with a 75gal lowtech and I'm finding that as I've added more plants the algae seems to be retreating. I thought I had enough plants but then I realized I needed the fast growing type and lots of them. Anyhow over the last 2 weeks i've added about 60-70 more stems of hygro and various other fast growers and I've also been adding a little bit of Excel just to help the plants get established. So far it seems to be working.

Anyhow, post a few pics and at least one full tank pic and then other can provide more helpful advice.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Sure, I've posted pics in the photo album before, but they were old. Here is a pic before the bba and bga took over the tank. There is currently much more watersprite on the surface (about double), along with a small amount of duckweed. Everything is covered in bga, including the watersprite on the surface.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Oh, btw, I've also added a 1 gallon juice jug of diy CO2 via a diffuser under the XP3 spray bar to mist the CO2 also. That was 3 weeks ago, and it hasn't made a difference so far.


----------



## beznsarah (Aug 1, 2006)

Looks to me like you don't have enough plants there. You might need to get rid of some of the stones/wood to make more room if you think it's necessary. 

Here's a good thread that shows a pictorial idea of light,moderate, and heavy planting. Read the first and second post. You need a lot more plants in my opinion. To start off you low-tech thank you need a whole lotta plants to keep the algae away.

New tank set up - parts 1 and 2 - Aquatic Plant Central- aquascaping...a living art

Also, if you get more plants be sure they are of the really fast growing types like hygro's, hornwort, etc. The list in the first post is a good start.

Best of luck!


----------



## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

soo.. here is another question on this topic. i have a low-tech tank in the office, which recieves no waterchanges, only enough water is added weekly to topoff the tank. 
when i first setup the tank, i forgot to put on a lid. the AC runs on the office almost all day long, and the rate of evaporation from the tank was significant. after a few months of weekly water replacement, on the order of 3-5 gallons per week, i have developed a nasty case of bba.
since then i have added a lid which reduces evaporation to like a few gallons every few weeks, but i still do have to add water on occasion.

sooo.. whats the best method to condition the water prior to putting it into the tank so that it is devoid of excess co2, to avoid continually having to battle bba? 

TIA


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Age the water naturally in a bucket. My problem was the 50 gallon change out a week, requiring me to use water directly from the tap, which then has a massive degassing of CO2. If you just age the water in a bucket for several days, the CO2 naturally degasses and you don't have this problem.


----------



## aquanut415 (Jan 21, 2006)

i thought about that, and it seems logical enough. anyone else have an idea?


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Just thought I would post a short update, since I think I am finally making some headway in the tank now.

The BGA was getting pretty bad, so I added DIY CO2 in a 1 gallon juice jug, misting it by using a diffuser under teh spray bar. I've been cleaning my canister filters about once every 2 weeks (rotating it so I do one at a time), and changing water (about 10 - 15%) once a week, with naturally aged tap water (to prevent the CO2 rapid release problem. I also starting injecting Excel with a syringe for the BBA. I am fanatically manually scraping and clearing off the BGA from everything 2 to 3 times a week. It looks like everything is starting to subside.

Hopefully, I'll have this thing licked by Xmas.:thumbsup:


----------



## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

I had it bad, it is always due to a nutrient imbalance.

What I do is REGULAR dosing of excel, and low dosing of other nutrients (flourish at recomended dosage once a week) It did not clear up instantly but it did clear up. Removing as much as possible also helps.


----------



## esarkipato (Jul 19, 2005)

I think that maybe this could have been avoided with a higher plant mass, which was already stated. Tom mentioned....the natural balance is out of whack, and more plants were needed. Although he suggested putting them remotely, you have a TON of room for more plants in there! Just a thought.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Believe me, I am trying. But with a 6 inch Gibbey Pleco and 3 large cichlids, and the 4 silver dollars which are pushing 5 inches now, it's:

a) hard to keep the plants anchored
b) hard to keep them from being eaten

I have 4 or 5 pounds of water sprite floating on top, not to mention loads of duckweed. I've cut the full lights to about 4 hours a day. The rest of the time, it's only got 50 watts (total) of lighting.

I am changing water twice a week (20% each time), to prevent nitrate buildup, using naturally aged water to prevent the bba problem I started with.

It's slowly but surely coming. I'm cleaning the filters quite often (every 3 weeks for the canisters and every week for the AC500).

Short of throwing out the fish and starting over with smaller, non aggressive fish, this is the fastest I can progress.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I realized I never posted a post mortem (sort of) on this thread. It's been a couple of months since I've posted to this thread. I've since then also had a BGA thread.

Anyway, I thought I would post a pic of the tank as of this month:










The BGA is all gone, and I have no more new BBA growth. I am systematically using a syringe to rid the BBA in parts of the tank which cannot be removed for bleaching. I think I'll be looking for some SAE to help keep it down also. Just gotta find some true SAE around here. Seems to be much more common to see CAE. 

Anyone have any tips to differential the two? I hear that CAE is often falsely sold as SAE.


----------



## cornhusker (Jan 26, 2005)

*bba in low tech tank*

When the good sae's along with other so called algae eaters find out that fish food is better,they get lazy and they just become another fish in your tank.imo otto's do the best job,but are usually starved when purchased,so you end up with a low percentage of live ones.pleco's are very fussy about the algae they eat. regards,cornhusker


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

cornhusker said:


> When the good sae's along with other so called algae eaters find out that fish food is better,they get lazy and they just become another fish in your tank.imo otto's do the best job,but are usually starved when purchased,so you end up with a low percentage of live ones.pleco's are very fussy about the algae they eat. regards,cornhusker


Oto's wouldn't last more than 2 minutes in that tank, which is one problem. The other problem is that they don't eat BBA. The tank is otherwise algae free right now.


----------



## fish_lover0591 (Nov 11, 2006)

wow i just went throught the whole thread and learned a few things ! I'm glad your algae is basically gone now


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

fish_lover0591 said:


> wow i just went throught the whole thread and learned a few things ! I'm glad your algae is basically gone now


Me too. 

Yeah, I learned a whole pile of things from this thread. So much so that I got a barrreport.com subscription.


----------



## Fishfreak218_2 (Dec 26, 2006)

what are SAE's?


----------



## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

Fishfreak218_2 said:


> what are SAE's?


I believe it stands for Siamese Algae Eater, and that BBA and BGA stands for Basic Brown Algae and Basic Green Algae respectively. Am I close?


----------



## fish_lover0591 (Nov 11, 2006)

i think BBA is black brush algae


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

And BGA is blue green algae, which is a cyano bacteria.


----------



## Fishfreak218_2 (Dec 26, 2006)

thank you everybody for the clarification


----------



## CapeCodVivarium (Dec 23, 2006)

Yes, I thank you as well!


----------



## grayandgray (Dec 22, 2006)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Just gotta find some true SAE around here. Seems to be much more common to see CAE.
> 
> Anyone have any tips to differential the two? I hear that CAE is often falsely sold as SAE.


This is a decent link for comparisons, but with drawings. There are others with photos out there:

Algae Eating Cyprinids

After seeing the difference, it's easy to identify the chinese, harder on the flying fox.

If you're in Burnaby, King Ed's on Kingsway should have the true SAE.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

grayandgray said:


> This is a decent link for comparisons, but with drawings. There are others with photos out there:
> 
> Algae Eating Cyprinids
> 
> ...


Thanks, Gray. The link is very descriptive about the differences. And you're right, I'm pretty sure I've seen SAE's there. I'm a regular over at King Ed's. Hopefully, they don't take a liking to the slimecoat of my cichlids.


----------



## alinwrkshp (Apr 1, 2005)

I've kept SAE's and ciclids for some time now with no problems. A healthy SAE will double in size very quickly too, so he'll be out of the "chomping" range shortly unless you just have some mean cichlids.. 

Never seen the SAE's bother any of the other fish, wish I could say the same for the Siamese Flying Foxes i have...ugh. In any case, I love SAE's and would keep them in any tank if they were easier to find. A true SAE has one solid black line down it's body and is a tan, almost gold color. The big indicator is the single black line though. CAE's are pretty easy to tell apart and SFF are very close to SAES but with 2 black lines and they are ugly mean.

SAE's will get very lazy if you feed well. I had to cut my feedings down to once every 3 days just to get them to look at the algae again...but now that I have them trained in that aspect they seem to be doing it on their own again without the forced fast...


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I got 6 1" SAE's at the LFS Boxing Day sales this week. I dunno if they are really good at hiding, or there have been casualties already, but I can only find 4 of them. They don't seem to be very active yet (it's been 3 days), but are mostly hiding among the plants. We'll see how they work out. I can always get more (although not for $1.50 each like I paid this time).

I have mostly eradicated the BBA on one side of the tank now with Excel. I have also started increasing the lighting back to normal hours....9 hours on one bank, and 5 hours with both banks (totally just over 100 watts).


----------



## TheXman (Oct 27, 2006)

They're probably sitting up in the plants, they love to do that, just sit perched up on a leaf or across a couple of stems, and they can be hard to see when they do that! Glad to hear that the algae is getting under control, good move going back to partial water changes. I don't care who tells you not to change the water, it still has to be done, IMHO. All natural freshwater systems get at least partial water changes (most of them where our fish come from get massive changes constantly), or they become saline, or they last less than a year. Plants won't absorb all the dissolved organic compounds the fish produce, and if you're adding food and fertilizers, you should be taking something out, otherwise you lose your balance. As much as we may want our tanks to be a closed self-contained system, they are not, and they never will be. Closed systems are hard to achieve, and not necessarily a good replication of the natural habitat of your fish and plants. Even our entire planet isn't a closed system, we still need the energy input of the sun! 
Just my 2 cents.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Well, we do export a lot as plant trimmings, cuttings and dead leaves etc, filter pad cleanings etc, water changes etc.

It's really quite far from "balanced", even the non CO2 no water change planted tanks, which is not that hard to balance truth be told, exports plant biomass with trimmings, and bacteria can denitrify NO3, we tend to add some tap for evaporation loss(tap sometimes has a small amount of nutrients), as well as a nutruient rich substrate.

Every non CO2 tank I've set up has never gotten BBA, the plants are exposed often times to BBA from other tanks. But adding plenty of fast growing plants from the start, good nutrients in the sediment, even the water column helps, many do not add enough plants, in CO2 or non CO2 tanks to start with and do not keep up on things in the start up phases.

If you keep up on things in the start up phase, you tend to never get algae or any sort other than diatoms here and there.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Yes, my mistake was too high a bioload, too much light, too many water changes, and not enough plantmass at start up. I'll never make that mistake again. I basically did everything wrong that could possibly be done wrong, but thanks to everyone here, and particularly Tom, I am well on track now, and the tank is looking better every day.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

It's a non CO2 tank, so it'll take time to correct itself, but.............once it does..............you are in for a real treat.
They are extremely satisfying and get nicer with age generally.

But they do take time to balance out and get going, then it's easy as pie.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## fishwhisperer (Jan 8, 2006)

If I may, I would like to keep an old post alive and hi-jack it at the same time.:icon_bigg 

I recently removed the CO2 from my 55 gallon (full time student) and down scaled the plants somewhat. I still have Java fern, a couple types of anubias, cryptocorn, C. spirallis, lotus and will soon have E. tenellus. 

With CO2 I constantly fought BBA (for obvious reasons) and GDA. Now each have slowed down considerably, however they are still lingering. Also, just as I was taking the CO2 out the light was off for a couple of days (remodeling). This seemed to kill off alot of each of the algaes.

Will there be any detrimental effect on the plants by removing CO2? If I leave things alone (which is easy as a fulltime student) will the algae eventually die off? I have been dosing about 1/4 of the PMDD recommended dose every Monday and have quit doing water changes (going on four weeks). Should I be dosing micros as well, if so should it also be done at 1/4 the amount once a week? Sorry about all the questions. I've read alot of posts and have done several searches, but still have these questions. Any help will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Have you cut down on the light? If not, you're going to eventually have a BBA problem, because that's what I had.

The PMDD should have macros and trace, so you should be good. I would mainly be concerned about all that light.....

Since my algae problem, I've been spot treating with Excel (down to about 4 big patches now), the plants have taken off, and I've added a bit of DIY CO2 for now (pressurized CO2 soon), so I'm winning the battle.


----------



## fishwhisperer (Jan 8, 2006)

Yes, I'm only running 2x65W. I haven't used all of it in a few months. 

I have some excel that I could use, I just surmised that dosing it would put the plants in CO2 mode. Then I would need to dose more ferts as well as water changes. Does this sound correct?

It's great to hear when someone finally starts to win the battle over algae. Especially, when it seems to be mythodical.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

I don't think so. I think in your case, the limitation would probably be light. I had a fert limitation in my 10 gallon with 27W, dosing Excel. My Bacopa starting growing transparent leaves at the top, closest to the light. You can always hold the photoperiod back a bit, thus making light the limitation instead of CO2 and ferts.


----------



## adamhaulena (Oct 4, 2006)

I have a 250mL bottle of Excel that I purchased when I had an outbreak. I used a small syringe and applied a small amount directly to the affected areas. Granted, it's only in a 14 gallon, but I only used the neck of the bottle (15 mL?) and it disappeared after a couple weeks. I didn't dose everyday, but maybe 4 or 5 times in total. You don't need to treat the entire tank.

Adam


----------



## fishwhisperer (Jan 8, 2006)

I agree Adam, and I have done the same in the past when I was injecting. 

I'm still not convinced that adding Excel will not require me to dose more as well as perform more frequent water changes (which I want to avoid as much as possible). Even if I spot dose the infected areas, the result is still adding Excel to the water column.

Thank you for the input.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

fishwhisperer said:


> I agree Adam, and I have done the same in the past when I was injecting.
> 
> I'm still not convinced that adding Excel will not require me to dose more as well as perform more frequent water changes (which I want to avoid as much as possible). Even if I spot dose the infected areas, the result is still adding Excel to the water column.
> 
> Thank you for the input.


I don't dose my 125 gallon, and I am currently adding DIY CO2 and Excel. I do have to do frequent water changes, but that's because of the large fishes producing too much waste, and not from dosing anything. If you make light your limitiing factor, I don't see how having excessive available carbon will force you to dose or make more water changes.


----------



## fishwhisperer (Jan 8, 2006)

Hi 2wheelsx2,

First I would like to say, I was just kidding earlier about hi-jacking your thread. If you want me to continue this discussion by posting another thread I will be more than happy to.

Second, thank-you for the comments and help. 

Lastly, I guess my thinking is along the same line as that of Tom's, when you guys were discussing at the beginning of this thread (post #'s 9, 10, 13, and 15). 

I am in my second semester of chemistry and somewhat understand the chemical process of photosynthesis. However, I am very limited in the biological understanding of the process. I really need to study further before I try to conjecture any further. 

Meanwhile, things seem to be stabalyzing more every week, the real problem is GDA


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

fishwhisperer said:


> Hi 2wheelsx2,
> 
> First I would like to say, I was just kidding earlier about hi-jacking your thread. If you want me to continue this discussion by posting another thread I will be more than happy to.
> .
> ...



It's cool. No worries. But having your own thread like this can track your progress as you beat the algae. So you might want to do that anyway.

GDA is a nuisance, but is a lot easier to deal with than BBA though.


----------



## CarolF (Dec 6, 2006)

Maybe it is more you are overfeeding your fish. What you feed them also relates to how much phosphates and nitrates are in the tank.

Do you feed live food?? Flakes?? Do you vacuum the waste out?? Every little bit helps. The pleco's can be very messy creatures.

A 125 gallon tank can handle a few fish, I have a heavy hand also in the feeding department but it can also sometimes be what you feed.

I am not a plant expert at all (green water and algea queen) but on the fish thing it just caught my eye that it really didn't seem like a large load for that sized tank.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

CarolF said:


> Maybe it is more you are overfeeding your fish. What you feed them also relates to how much phosphates and nitrates are in the tank.
> 
> Do you feed live food?? Flakes?? Do you vacuum the waste out?? Every little bit helps. The pleco's can be very messy creatures.
> 
> ...


I feed only frozen Hikari bloodworms as "live" food. Twice a week. Was 3 times, but I cut one back at another member's suggestion. I feed NLS large fish formula at all other times. My whole algae problem has been fixed except a bit of BBA I am still taking care of. As a matter of fact, I feed more now than I have ever fed, because the fish have gotten even bigger. The Gibbey is about 6 - 7" now, and the Chocolate Cichlids are pushing 8" while the Texas is pusing 6. My routine is a water every 10 days of 30%, with a good gravel vac.

I think my whole issue was an intersection of bad conditons. High bioload, increasing the light output and photoperiod, not enough plant mass, lots of water changes with straight tap water keeping nitrates low, with CO2 degassing, then a period of low water changes to stop the imbalance. Basically, I did everything I shouldn't have done. A classic case of changing too many things at once.

I think I have learned enough from this tank to not make the same mistakes again. I just started a 10 gallon at work which is really nice, and had no issues what so ever, but I took it slow and had all my ducks in a row before I started tweaking things.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Well, I thought I would post a post mortem on this tank. Tank is now not really low tech. I am misting pressurized CO2 with a Rex setup from 2 points using Rhinox 1000 on each end. BBA is mostly gone (still have some rocks to clean up, and plant growth has exploded. Not doing any ferts except a shot of trace and K2SO4 after a water change. I am also using the odd bit of Excel to help kill off the stubborn BBA on the rocks.

Here's a pic from tonight:


----------



## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

plantbrain said:


> BBA will generally never grow in a non CO2 planted tank that gets no water changes, top off only.


Hi there..

I'm having a pretty bad issue with BBA, in my low tech planted tank. There are not a lot of plants in there, but I also don't have a lot of light. There's no Co2, no water changes (I only add a small amount of RO water to top off, every few days) I don't dose anything at all. It has probably more than enough filtration (12 gallon tank, Fluval 306).

There are no fish, but I have about 20-50 high grade CRS in there.

Nitrate/Nitrite/Ammonia are all normal.

Lots of BBA...

Can you please give me some advice? Can I use Excel, even with high grade CRS?

Thanks


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Well, I thought I would post a post mortem on this tank. Tank is now not really low tech. I am misting pressurized CO2 with a Rex setup from 2 points using Rhinox 1000 on each end. BBA is mostly gone (still have some rocks to clean up, and plant growth has exploded. Not doing any ferts except a shot of trace and K2SO4 after a water change. I am also using the odd bit of Excel to help kill off the stubborn BBA on the rocks.
> 
> Here's a pic from tonight:


Looks better, with this much fish loading, this is a lesson in the limits of the Non cO2 method. the trade off leads to CO2 and driving the system with more WC's and labor, but you do get a better tank with a lot more gardening.

Still, if you remove some of the fish loading, the non CO2 method will be fine.
But for many, that is not an option they want to hear.

Still, a good sump plant filter with emergent plants will take out a lot of fish waste.


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

Bwahahaha! Mr. Tom Barr! ,,, a bit dated being almost 5yrs. old on that post. :hihi:


----------



## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

LOL.. see, this is what happens when people "SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH!!!!" before making a new thread.. old threads come back.. haha.. sorry, it's my bad.


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

Yeah, this tank looks nothing like that now. It's still CO2 injected, but it's because a lot lower lighting now. Using 2 sets of 36" Coralife T5NO and 2 sets of 36" Marineland double brite LED's. It's essentially become a pleco haven, with the only try swimmers being some lemon tetras and a set of Red Hump Geos.


----------



## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

2wheelsx2 said:


> Yeah, this tank looks nothing like that now. It's still CO2 injected, but it's because a lot lower lighting now. Using 2 sets of 36" Coralife T5NO and 2 sets of 36" Marineland double brite LED's. It's essentially become a pleco haven, with the only try swimmers being some lemon tetras and a set of Red Hump Geos.


pics?


----------



## wkndracer (Mar 14, 2009)

ADA said:


> LOL.. see, this is what happens when people "SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH!!!!" before making a new thread.. old threads come back.. haha.. sorry, it's my bad.


haha no apology plz! The original exchange between the OP and TB has some great insights. While it mirrors 90% of my tanking it's not mainstream for this site. Old threads aren't a bad thing.

I for one am glad you dug it up, so thank you! 
(wish I had you're shrimp tank answer)


----------



## 2wheelsx2 (Jan 27, 2006)

ADA said:


> pics?












Don't really have any fts recently as it's not really a true planted tank anymore. Almost all ephiphytes to keep the bottom open for the plecos and cories. But that's the right hand side. There's more wood, and more caves for the plecos.


----------



## ADA (Dec 31, 2010)

Nice!!! I LOVE that piece of wood/trunk..


----------

