# Blue Ram breathing hard



## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

10g is probably a bit small for a ram.


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## DefStatic (Feb 19, 2013)

I actually read mixed results on this and also had mixed results in person.


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## IDR (Apr 12, 2014)

1. Your temps are too cold for Rams. They thrive in much, much warmer waters. I'm talking mid to high 80's. I wouldn't house them in anything less than 80°F, and would honestly push it to at least 82-84°F.

2. 10G, as noted above, is far too small for even one. They're cichlids. They need room. I wouldn't house them in anything less than a 20G, and even that is pushing it. Your Ram really should be in your 30, not your 10.

3. Protein film, or any other substance preventing oxygen exchange at the surface? Do you agitate the surface with anything — air stone?


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## StrangeDejavu (Jun 23, 2014)

IDR said:


> 1. Your temps are too cold for Rams. They thrive in much, much warmer waters. I'm talking mid to high 80's. I wouldn't house them in anything less than 80°F, and would honestly push it to at least 82-84°F.
> 
> 2. 10G, as noted above, is far too small for even one. They're cichlids. They need room. I wouldn't house them in anything less than a 20G, and even that is pushing it. Your Ram really should be in your 30, not your 10.
> 
> 3. Protein film, or any other substance preventing oxygen exchange at the surface? Do you agitate the surface with anything — air stone?


+1 to all of this. Keeping Rams in temps this low is a compromise to their health and makes them susceptible to disease. Without a photo or a video, it's hard to guess what's going on with the Ram which also makes it hard to recommend a treatment.


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## DefStatic (Feb 19, 2013)

StrangeDejavu said:


> +1 to all of this. Keeping Rams in temps this low is a compromise to their health and makes them susceptible to disease. Without a photo or a video, it's hard to guess what's going on with the Ram which also makes it hard to recommend a treatment.


I wish I had read all this before I bought a Ram. It went belly up pretty quick. I tried changing 50% of the water. I do not have a quarantine tank.

I had read mixed results on the tank size and the temp from multiple sources. I had read a few site that said temp 72-80. I found those websites again, same thing. But now I looked at a few more and they said 80 to 84. Same thing with tank size. I found a few sites saying one in a 10g was fine but no more.

I feel really stupid now for not reading even more, or reading enough. Can't just take a few sites info, need to check many sites to compare information. I really take it hard when I lose larger fish, especially colorful ones. And even more so when it must have been my fault.

The one constant thing I had read that they are sensitive to nitrates, so I had been avoiding them. But I was keeping my nitrates at 5ppm without issue so I thought I could keep one.

I did read mixed results about the 10 gallon thing. I think I am going to just stick with my 6 tetras and maybe some pygmy corries and that is it for this tank. I am going to save up some resources and maybe start a proper ram only tank.

I have also read mixed results about the temp. I see some places say 72 to 80. Some 80 to 84. Really hard to know what is right. But this is the second forum to mention the temp right away. And it would not have worked in my 30g as I keep that at 76 to 78 as well.

I am going to get an airstone as well. There is good movement on the surface but not much agitation. Good enough movement there is no film, but I like agitation like in my 30 gal where I have two airstones.

Just really let down all around on this one.


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## StrangeDejavu (Jun 23, 2014)

Don't beat yourself up, we live and we learn. One time I found myself standing at my LFS, wanting the Peppered and False Julii corys they had in stock. A quick search on my phone revealed the temperature in my 55g would be fine. After a month and a half, the otherwise healthy corys started to randomly die for no reason. After viewing a dedicated cory catfish website, I learned the Peppered Cory should be kept between 59-77°F and I had them at 82°F. I felt terrible and quickly rehomed the remaining corys.


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## Betta132 (Nov 29, 2012)

You could add 6-7 pygmy cories to that tank, easily. More given that it's planted, actually, you could probably go up to 10. They stay itty-bitty. 
And don't worry about it... you did research and went with what you discovered. At least you actually DID research.
Most memorable time I did the search-for-conclusion-and-find-wrong-one thing resulted in a neon goby being eaten by a watchman goby in my saltwater tank. Apparently watchman gobies WILL ignore the cleaner fish colors. Also, they have way bigger mouths than you'd think. I swear they all have grouper heads.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Been turned off by the whole German Blue ram thing for some time.
Many of these are imported from Asia and are said to be swimming in veritable soups of antibiotic's and or subjected to hormone treatment's to help the young fish color up more quickly.(young fish are drab looking for a good while).
Once the fishes are removed from the antibiotic's ,then the stress of shipment,acclimation to dealer tank's,then acclimation to your/my tank,takes a toll on an already sensitive species.
Add to this all of the tinkering by human's to create long finned variant's,balloon ram's,neon ram's,etc and you then have in my view, a very poor genetically weak species.
Have heard that there are a few folks who are getting these fishes to breed successfully in wider range of water chemistry but I have not seen enough of them as of yet that do well in anything other than soft,warm, acidic water over the long haul.
Best luck I ever had after several failed attempt's,was by placing a pair in well seasoned 20 gal tank with 50/50 mix of tap water R/O water and temps around 82 degree's F.
these fishes lived for about two year's before Ice storm rolled through and power was lost for a week in January.
I bet I single handedly killed a couple dozen of these little warrior's over time, while trying to make them adapt to my water condition's 12dgh,pH 7.6 from the tap.
My two cent's.


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## Clear Water (Sep 20, 2014)

I'm sorry but I think that rams can take 77 degrees. Yes they will like warmer temps but I pretty sure they still could be healthy at little cooler temp. My temp run between 78 degrees and 79 and have had them over 6 months. There temps have to go up and down in the wild with the spring rains and snow melt. But for breeding they may have to be higher. Most fish can take some what of a swing in temps as long as there slow.


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## Farm (Sep 23, 2014)

I am no longer considering these fish as an option for my tank I am still stocking. Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. I knew they were sensitive but not that sensitive. So much for my research.


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## vanish (Apr 21, 2014)

There are also Bolivian Rams which live in cooler water, so maybe that's why some sites were saying one temp and others higher.


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## DefStatic (Feb 19, 2013)

I had read that they can be difficult to keep, but that if you have a well established tank and watch your nitrates closely, then you usually have no problems.

I got a peek at how the fish come in at a chain LFS once. It is quite sad. The bettas come in water that is almost a light blue color, full of medication. I understand without shipping, we wouldn't have access to 10% of the fish we keep. But it is quite sad at the same time. Even when done with care, it has to be quite the experience, stress wise.

I have also learned not to take the advise from this LFS. They aren't bad, and they know more than most chains, but I have still seen them make some mistakes. But normally they are spot on. Most of the time I if I go to a chain they don't know anything.

One chain I was in allowed a couple to buy another fish to keep with their betta in a 5 gallon. I said something to the couple and they were like "Well our betta looks bored now that his friend died" and I was like "Lady, that betta did not see it as its friend, that is why it chased it to death" and the man got all confrontational. And I saw another chain allow some guy and his daughter to buy 3 guppies and 3 neon tetra to keep in an unfiltered 2.5 gallon.

But yeah, just going to keep this tank the way it is for now with the 6 glowlights. Maybe after a month get a small group of pygmy cories but that is it. I think my next tank I will get another 30 gallon some day and start a ram tank. I will keep just rams and some dither fish that can handle 80 to 82 degrees in it. Maybe when one of the LFS have one of those $1 per gallon sales. 

And I am dedicated now to keeping a quarantine tank. When I have some extra cash I am going to pick up a 10 gallon, filter, substrate. Keep some easy plants in it. Nothing too fancy. The water chemistry will closely match my other tanks, so the fish can acclimate in there for a few weeks and when they go into their actual tank they should be fine.

Thanks everyone for the info. I am going to say this is either from the water temp/stress or possibly something I brought back with the tetras.


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## IDR (Apr 12, 2014)

DefStatic said:


> I wish I had read all this before I bought a Ram. It went belly up pretty quick. I tried changing 50% of the water. I do not have a quarantine tank.
> 
> I had read mixed results on the tank size and the temp from multiple sources. I had read a few site that said temp 72-80. I found those websites again, same thing. But now I looked at a few more and they said 80 to 84. Same thing with tank size. I found a few sites saying one in a 10g was fine but no more.
> 
> ...


Don't beat yourself up over it, dude. We all make mistakes. It's why we're here, frankly. No one here is perfect, and I'm sure all of us have made mistakes we look back on and realize were really stupid.

You've got the right attitude, which is what matters. The key to fish-keeping is research and understanding. Knowing what works and what doesn't, what's right and what's wrong, which is all learned and/or inherited information.

And you should be just fine with the Pygmy Corys and Tetra in your 10 gallon. That's actually a very suitable mix of fish and a workable bio-load for a smaller tank like that.



Clear Water said:


> I'm sorry but I think that rams can take 77 degrees. Yes they will like warmer temps but I pretty sure they still could be healthy at little cooler temp. My temp run between 78 degrees and 79 and have had them over 6 months. There temps have to go up and down in the wild with the spring rains and snow melt. But for breeding they may have to be higher. Most fish can take some what of a swing in temps as long as there slow.


Can take and thrive are not the same thing. They _thrive_ in warmer waters. Temps go up and down in the wild, yes, but in most lakes, around the region these fish tend to live, it doesn't stay cold like that for long. We're talking hours or days, not weeks or months. They are also not forced to endure Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate in the wild the way they are in tanks.

Bump:


Farm said:


> I am no longer considering these fish as an option for my tank I am still stocking. Thank you for sharing that. I had no idea. I knew they were sensitive but not that sensitive. So much for my research.


It really depends on the fish. Rams are notoriously fickle, yes, but it's largely due to inbreeding, not because the species themselves are fragile.

If you are getting them from a reputable breeder, and not just buying from your LFS, which are undoubtedly getting inbred stock, they're really no more or less difficult to keep, I've found, than most other South American fish (various Tetra, Pencilfish, etc).

They just like clean water, like the vast majority of other fish. In fact, I'd argue ALL fish like clean water. There are no fish that actually enjoy dirty water. There are just some who tolerate it better than others, is all.

Bump:


DefStatic said:


> I had read that they can be difficult to keep, but that if you have a well established tank and watch your nitrates closely, then you usually have no problems.
> 
> I got a peek at how the fish come in at a chain LFS once. It is quite sad. The bettas come in water that is almost a light blue color, full of medication. I understand without shipping, we wouldn't have access to 10% of the fish we keep. But it is quite sad at the same time. Even when done with care, it has to be quite the experience, stress wise.
> 
> ...


If you are going this route, I'd suggest exactly that size and a biotope community with either Cardinal Tetras, Rummynose Tetras or Pencilfish. They all live together in the wild, and all three can handle the warmer, softer water GBR's thrive in. You could even push the tank to 84-86°F without issue.

Just be careful with Cardinal Tetras versus Neon Tetras. They look similar, but ARE NOT the same fish.


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## StrangeDejavu (Jun 23, 2014)

IDR said:


> It really depends on the fish. Rams are notoriously fickle, yes, but it's largely due to inbreeding, not because the species themselves are fragile.
> 
> If you are getting them from a reputable breeder, and not just buying from your LFS, which are undoubtedly getting inbred stock, they're really no more or less difficult to keep, I've found, than most other South American fish (various Tetra, Pencilfish, etc).
> 
> ...


+1. +1. +1. I couldn't agree with this more.

Here's something to consider. I'm still new to all of this, as in prior to March 2014 the closest aquatic pet I ever cared for were "sea monkeys" when I was 7. April rolls around and I get my first betta- i'm hooked. Few weeks later, I get another betta- i'm really hooked now. I care for these guys and do extensive reading over the course of 3-4 months on fishkeeping and planted tanks. Around July, I decided I want a 55 gallon planted tank. I also decided I wanted German Blue Rams to be the king and queen of this tank. While researching GBRs, I came across threads like this where people buy them, bring them home, and they simply die without reason. I didn't back down though because I had to have these fish. Their antics and puppy dog behavior seen in YouTube videos made me do some more digging. As was mentioned above, I find out these fish are injected/fed hormones to force their colors out at an early age. This can result in a weakened specimen, one whose sterile and even aggressive. One of the biggest causes of this practice was early, unexplained death. I saw this first hand at my LFS when a lonely Ram had advanced HITH and parasites, yet he was displaying coloration you'd expect during breeding. At this point, I did some Googling. I can't list the breeder as this could technically be labeled as a "positive review" per the TOS, but if you Google "German Blue Ram no hormones" you'll find the breeder. His Rams are non-imbred and are not exposed to hormones of any kind. Even better, he sells them as guaranteed bonded pairs which took the guess work out for me. And to top it off, he has been breeding them in hard water for 10 years now. 

Fast forward nearly 4 months and they are thriving in my 55 gallon. It took a few weeks but they colored up beautifully with clean water and a good diet of New Life Spectrum and frozen foods. As IDR mentioned above, they just want clean water... which isn't too much to ask considering they are fish and all. Another point i'd like to make: I recently had surgery which forced me to neglect my tanks for a period of time. The Ram tank went 3.5 weeks without a water change and guess what? Still happy, still healthy, glowing colors and I even had to post-pone that water change as they were guarding a batch of eggs.

All that said, if you buy from a good source, have any kind of basic knowledge of fish and can provide a clean environment- there's absolutely no reason you can't enjoy Rams. roud:

Here's a slightly outdated video of my Rams, before I converted to live plants. It should give you a pretty good idea of what the breeders Rams look like once colored up. This is just one of the many behaviors I get a kick out of watching. They communicate like this for a few days just before the female spawns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zndTjRjx9lY


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## Clear Water (Sep 20, 2014)

Can take and thrive are not the same thing. They _thrive_ in warmer waters. Temps go up and down in the wild, yes, but in most lakes, around the region these fish tend to live, it doesn't stay cold like that for long. We're talking hours or days, not weeks or months. They are also not forced to endure Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate in the wild the way they are in tanks.

I agree with you about thriving but I don't think they could tell a difference of 2 to 3 degree. My are growing and starting to pair off. Just me but I try to keep all my tanks on the cooler side. I don't disagree but just think that he would be ok at the cooler side of the temps.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Is odd to me that so many keep fishes well above the suggested high temperatures the fishes enjoy over the long haul ,but yet when one or two species of fishes suggested ranges are indeed warmer,, everybody want's to keep em at lower temp's.
The Rams have high metabolisim's like Discus, and lowering the temps slows digestive process, and possibly immune system response.
Just keep em warm, and in soft water, or keep replacing them.


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## IDR (Apr 12, 2014)

Clear Water said:


> I agree with you about thriving but I don't think they could tell a difference of 2 to 3 degree. My are growing and starting to pair off. Just me but I try to keep all my tanks on the cooler side. I don't disagree but just think that he would be ok at the cooler side of the temps.


Depends what you mean by "tell the difference". There's absolutely a physiological difference in behavior, long-term health, etc. with Rams (German's _especially_) kept in a tank at 77°F versus a tank kept at 86°F, for example. I mean, that's not two or three degrees. If we presume that Rams really shouldn't be kept below 82°F, the difference between that and 77 is five degrees. That's a lot to fish, I'd argue.


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