# Too much light for crypts only?



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

I have a 48x24x24 120 gallon tank running on 4x54w t5ho lights with individual reflectors. I was told by various sources that this would be considered medium-high to high light. I also have CO2 and am dosing using wondergro liquid ferts with JBL base fertilizer under my sand substrate.

Given my setup, especially the high light, would stocking my tank with slow growing crypts instead of nutrient exporting stems result in an algae bloom, or would it be safe for me as long as I limit my ferts?


----------



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I am no expert, but recently set up a low light tank with crypts and anubias. While studying the various types, I noticed in the descriptions that some were said to need medium to higher lighting.
Look at the requirements..for ones like 'c. ciliata'{this is a fraction of the cryptocorynes}
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Cryptocorynes_s/21.htm


----------



## Oscar17 (Dec 7, 2007)

4x54w = 216W, 216w divided by 120g = 1.8 wpg. I'm no expert either, but this looks more like medium light to me.. especially with the height of your tank being 24". Even with the reflectors. Don't think it's too much light for Crypts, I'd be more worried about the hardness of your water, since (as I understand it) Crypts don't do well in soft water.


----------



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Oscar17 said:


> Crypts don't do well in soft water.


 Depends on what type, some require it. I have ideii and minima that need soft water. My bronze wendtiis and luteas are doing fine, and growing new leaves in soft water. [with tannins added]


----------



## Oscar17 (Dec 7, 2007)

waterfaller1 said:


> Depends on what type, some require it. I have ideii and minima that need soft water. My bronze wendtiis and luteas are doing fine, and growing new leaves in soft water. [with tannins added]


Hmmm, good to know that. Thanks waterfaller.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I have a similar lighting setup (TEK 4x54w T5HO, very nice individual reflectors) on my 75g tank (48x18x20). So your tank is 3" wider on the front and back (6" total) and 4" deeper.

Looking at the amount of light on my tank with all 4 bulbs burning, it's very high. My plants go nuts when I turn on all 4 bulbs. I use EI ferts with injected CO2 (around 30ppm) with a pH controller.

With 2 of the 4 bulbs running, my plants grow okay with only the high light plants not doing well. Everything seems pretty normal. But when I have all 4 bulbs running, the plants grow like crazy (I swear I can see them grow) with oxygen bubbles being cast all over the place as if it were snowing!

As long as you have enough plant mass to use all that light, then use all 4 bulbs. But you may run into trouble with only slow growing plants and no fast growing stems.

If you can, try to run just two bulbs for most of the time and turn on all 4 bulbs for a noon burst. Work with that to find a balance between your plants' needs for light and the desire to prevent algae.

It's better to start with less light and work your way up than the other way around. Most crypts don't need much light so they should do fine with the lowered amount of light. If you want faster growth and want to use all 4 bulbs, then do the noon burst to see how that affects the plants. If you see the first signs of algae, lower your photo period, especially the duration of all 4 bulbs running. Work to get rid of the algae and, once gone, see if it returns or if things stabilize.

While crypts don't have a strong need for ferts or CO2, if you run all 4 bulbs for any length of time, I would strongly recommend both. 

The whole process is a balancing act between the light, ferts and CO2 (not to mention plant mass). If one thing is out of balance with the other, algae takes over. So it's not so much a matter of how much light you use as it is a matter of ensuring that you balance that light with ferts and CO2, as well as, having enough plant mass to use it. Of the 3 components, lighting is the most difficult to balance. Lower light creates a less demanding environment while high lighting creates a much more demanding environment. The higher the light, the more the need for ferts, CO2 and plant mass. The brighter light speeds up everything, including the emergence and growth of algae if things are out of balance.

Your tank is larger than mine, especially the extra 4" depth, but I think you will do well if you run only 2 of the bulbs for most of the day, and then run all 4 bulbs for a noon burst.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

Thanks for the advice  After replanning my scape, I'm only switching out about 1/4 of the stems to crypts, so the rest of the fast growing stems are gonna remain...i guess that means i can keep my lights  I am currently running 8 hours of light. 1 hour with 2 tubes, 6 hours with 4 tubes then 1 hour with 2 tubes again....i may change it to 2-4-2 instead now that I've swapped out some crypts.


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

I hope it works out for you! Let us know how the plants and algae does with the crypts. I think a lot of people enjoy crypts because they're so hardy and low maintenance, but still look great. So others might be interested in how your photo period works out for you.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

back with an update after running the tank for a couple of months. I have quite abit of stems not replaced with crypts yet, but I'm experiencing a massive hair algae attack. My current lighting schedule is 8 hours with 2 bulbs and 4 hours with the other 2 bulbs added on (2 hours with 2 bulbs, 4 hours with 4 bulbs then 2 hours with 2 bulbs again), but am still experiencing a huge outbreak of hair algae. The algae is growing on the slow growing epiphytes (Anubias barteri var nana "gold" and Christmas moss) that's tied to my driftwood. I'm suspecting that it's because of their close proximity to the light. My fixture rests directly on the hood and is only like 1 inch above the water level, so light intensity is very high. Should I reduce my light even further even if I decide to keep the stems (I have Rotala sp. "Green", Rotala najashen, Myriophyllum tubercullum which I can replace and Didiplis diandra). All non-demanding stems except for the Myriophyllum, which I don't mind replacing.

Any ideas how I can avoid the hair algae outbreaks with the current lighting setup?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You need very good CO2 to use that much light. That means maintaining around 30 ppm concentration, with very good water circulation to get CO2 enriched water to all plants all of the time. Don't just use a drop checker, and keep it green, but use that level of CO2 as the starting point for increasing the bubble rate a little at a time until you know you have as much as you can.

You didn't mention how you get CO2 into the water, ceramic disc diffuser, external reactor, CO2 mist, etc. It would help to know that information.

Just because crypts can do well with low light doesn't mean they won't do well with high light. They just grow faster and bigger with high light. But, you still need to be providing adequate amounts of all of the nutrients, and maintaining good CO2 levels when you use that much light.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

I'm getting CO2 into the tank now via 2 Hydor electric diffusers placed at the 2 back corners of the tank. However, as I'm finding the flow inadequate (2x Eheim ProII 2028s on the 4x2x2), I'll be replacing those with Atman powerheads instead (rated at 1200 litres/hour, which will give me a total rate of 4500 litres/hour - about 10x rated turnover, probably closer to 6-7x actual turnover). These Atman powerheads come with a airline connector at their outputs, so I'm going to be putting in CO2 via that instead...hopefully it will give more even CO2 circulation around the tank.

If I'm intending to keep ~50% of my plant mass to be stems, with the rest of the plant mass as crypts, moss and anubias, should I decrease my lighting levels even further to only 2 hours with all 4 tubes, or is my current lighting set up ok?

I will be replacing the Myriophyllum (and Pogostemon stellatus) with perhaps Ludwigia arcuata or Rotala wallichi to compensate for the lower light since those 2 plants have higher requirements.

I also forgot to mention, my fert regime is JBL base fertilizer and Wondergro Root+ as the substrate fert and Wondergro liquids as the water column fert.

I'm just very perplexed by the high volume of hair algae on my epiphytes


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

The most effective way to avoid all algae types is to have lots of healthy growing plants in the tank, and use only as much light as you need to get the growth rate you want. Having healthy growing plants means maintaining adequate concentrations of all of the needed fertilizers at all times, with enough water circulation to avoid any plants being short of any of the fertilizers, especially CO2. Those healthy growing plants will absorb all of the ammonia the fish generate almost instantly, never allowing enough to build up to start an algae bloom. It should be obvious that excessively intense lighting is the first thing to correct.

Using powerheads to distribute CO2 is a good idea, but using the air connection on the powerhead outlet is not a good idea. That will lead to injecting big bubbles of CO2, instead of the very small bubbles that do so much better. If you inject the CO2 into the inlet of the powerhead it will get chopped up into a much finer bunch of bubbles, which will be much more effective. And, if you modify the powerhead rotor either by making it a needle wheel type rotor, or just by making lots of small holes in each blade of the rotor, it will do even better at making tiny CO2 bubbles.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

After a few months of trying it out, I find the lights really overpowering. I think the combination of individual reflectors and close proximity to the water surface (the lights are placed about 1 inch max above the water surface) made up for the "lack" of wattage.

As I'm not actually staying in the house yet, keeping nutrients stable is a problem, and I suspect that's one of the contributing factors to algae. Circulation of CO2 may be another problem, and I'm adding powerheads to the tank to combat that.

I've come to the point where I think I may just reduce the lights to 8 Hours with 2 bulbs, and just a 2 hour burst with all 4 bulbs switched on. Plants have been changed as well: Hygrophila polysperma "Sunset" is the only stem plant. The rest of the plants are Cryptocoryne crispulata var balansae, Cryptocoryne wendtii "Green Gecko", Cryptocoryne wendtii "Tropica", Cryptocoryne wendtii "Green", Cyperus helferi and Bolbitis heudelotii. There is JBL substrate fertilization, and I will be supplementing with modified EI. Do you guys think this new plan will work? Also, while I will still be supplementing CO2, is it more forgiving if I don't maintain it at 30ppm throughout the tank?


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

anyone? Would i still need CO2 with my new extremely reduced lighting (it's 6 hours of 1 wpg and 2 hours of 1.9 wpg) and change of plants?


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I keep reading about people using a single 54 watt T5HO light on a 55 gallon tank, and doing very well with plants. Add that to Tom Barr's measurements of the light intensity in some ADA tanks, getting what we would normally consider much below "high" light intensity, and I have to conclude that you would get much better results if you only use two of those bulbs at any one time. CO2 is good with any light intensity, so, since you have it set up, why not continue to use it with lesser light? You mention keeping the lights only an inch above the water to make up for having a lack of watts - watts aren't the issue, light intensity is, and T5HO bulbs really produce a lot of light per watt.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

illumnae said:


> anyone? Would i still need CO2 with my new extremely reduced lighting (it's 6 hours of 1 wpg and 2 hours of 1.9 wpg) and change of plants?


No one can answer that for sure. Every tank is different. Try it and see!

If you do get algae with that photoperiod, and don't want to add CO2, you know what do to- reduce your lighting more.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

Hoppy said:


> I keep reading about people using a single 54 watt T5HO light on a 55 gallon tank, and doing very well with plants. Add that to Tom Barr's measurements of the light intensity in some ADA tanks, getting what we would normally consider much below "high" light intensity, and I have to conclude that you would get much better results if you only use two of those bulbs at any one time. CO2 is good with any light intensity, so, since you have it set up, why not continue to use it with lesser light? You mention keeping the lights only an inch above the water to make up for having a lack of watts - watts aren't the issue, light intensity is, and T5HO bulbs really produce a lot of light per watt.


Work has been annoyingly busy lately, and I don't have a car, so topping CO2 up (even if it's just once every 6 months) has become a chore, that's why I'm thinking of decomissioning the CO2 setup

The reason why i put the T5HO close is not because I want the intensity to make up for the lack of wattage, but rather I'm constrained by the way the lights and the tank was designed. The lights sit within the hood, hence when the water is filled up, they are merely an inch max above the water surface. I never meant to compensate low wattage with high intensity  In fact, I bought this lightset with the mindset that I only wanted medium light, hence only 4 t5ho bulbs when I was being recommended 6.



lauraleellbp said:


> No one can answer that for sure. Every tank is different. Try it and see!
> 
> If you do get algae with that photoperiod, and don't want to add CO2, you know what do to- reduce your lighting more.


I guess I'll have to do that! Will try this out for awhile after clearing the current algae with Excel OD


----------



## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Plant *mass* is not that important in a fully cycled tank. If there is a mini-cycle/recycle for any reason then mass has more value again. Plant mass has been recommended for *cycling setups* in order to help absorb the excess NH4/NH3 as the bacterial colony grows. Once the tank is cycled....it becomes much less of an issue/need. According to TB plants adjust to N03 intake. They don't really start using NH4/NH3 until it reaches lethal levels (for fish, etc) at around 0.5-2.0ppm. The problem is that algae utilizes lower levels (0-0.5) much sooner, faster and more efficiently and those low levels trigger germination. After a tank cycles--it's about the light, C02 and ferts.

This "stuff it full of plants" recommendation has now drifted over to almost every problem someone has.....:confused1:

The problem is too much light and not enough C02. Reducing the light (intensity/length) is the quick easy fix. Personally, I currently don't have enough knowledge/experience with T5 lighting to guess whether or not your new lighting plan will work the way you want. You'll just have to try it to find out. The hair algae? I think all of us still trying to figure that one out.....:icon_redf I'll think on it.......

HTH


----------



## Complexity (Jan 30, 2008)

Your two bulbs are more than plenty for the plants you have in there now. CO2 is always helpful, but if you're running with low light, you can do pretty good without it.

Forget the noon burst and just run the two lights. Lower your photoperiod, as well. You'd do better with having too little light than too much so err on the low side.

Not sure what causes hair algae. The only time I had it was in my 2.5g tank that I ignored. No water changes, but high lighting. I've read that it's due to water conditions which fit my issue since I wasn't doing water changes. Otherwise, I'm not sure what causes it since I've never had it in any of my main tanks. Still, I believe bright lighting will encourage hair algae more than low lighting so lowering the amount of light is still heading in the right direction.

I do believe plant mass is part of the equation of balancing, and not just for cycling tanks. I believe it comes into play when the bright lights are first turned on. But you're not working with a bright light tank so it doesn't matter either way in your situation.


----------



## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I get hair algae issues when I run more than 108 watts of T5HO over my own low tech 90gal (no CO2) for more than 8 hours. Keep it at 8 hours and my algae eaters keep it in control.

IMO whoever told you that you'd need 6x54 watts of T5HO didn't have much experience with T5HO.


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

To be fair, the person who told me i needed 6x54 watts probably didn't take into consideration that:

a) my lights are very close to the water surface
b) I had individual reflectors over every bulb.

Here in Singapore, most people buy the cheap China brand t5hos which come with crappy reflectors (usually single reflector over 2-4 bulbs) and with ugly legs that push the light up to 1ft above water level. I splurged and paid for a high quality set. That's also why I kind of want to use all 4 bulbs at least abit - justify the investment.

An update: It seems that my new lighting schedule is working. Not much new algae since I reduced the burst to 2 hours, with 2 bulbs at 8 hours. I'm now beginning my Excel OD to clear off all the remaining algae, after which hopefully everything will stay in sync.

Thanks for all the advice!


----------



## illumnae (Dec 27, 2007)

An update seems due  I think the new lighting schedule works well. I don't get much new algae except for some BBA on the wood and the cyperus helferi. I've read it takes a long time to acclimitize itself to submersed conditions, but it's been months and it's still not taking off. I'm considering putting CO2 back to reduce BBA problems. I also will probably add more plant mass to the tank as I feel I don't have enough. The crypts grow too slowly and take their time filling out! I have a bunch of sunset hygros growing wild, but the rest of the tank only has crypts, cyperus helferi and java ferns...which grow really slowly. I may add another stem plant to balance out the scape a little to look more lush. Would I consequently need to increase my lighting if I put in another hygro type? (I'm thinking Hygro polysperma "Ceylon" to give a similar look with different colours to the scape) I'm sorely tempted to go back CO2, but haven't decided for sure yet.


----------

