# Mineralized Top Soil Substrate



## greatfish123

Join the fun! I'm currently mineralizing mine also. I washed the topsoil in water twice and laid it out to dry on a tarp. Once it was dry, I sprinkled some water and made it nice and muddy again. Then, I let it dry and started the process again. I'm on my second dry/wet cycle. I'm thinking of doing it one more time and then laying it out in the tank!


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## TheCryptKeeper

sweet. I am going to follow Aaront's thread to a T lol!


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Very nice photos


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## CobraGuppy

Wow, this method sounds amazing!

I might do this for a 5.5 nano so that i don't have to dose it (other than potassium?)

Can you find all the stuff needed at a home improvement store? other than the dolomite which might be at a petstore.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I looked for the clay at my local garden center and didn't find it.. I am going to order it online.


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## hooha

you can get the clay at an arts store (i.e. "Michael's" around here). The Potash was difficult to find, the big stores (Home Depot and Lowes) don't carry them. I finally found some at a local nursery - you can do some 'phone shopping' beforehand. The dolomite can usually be found at an LFS that has reef supplies.

The mineralized setup works great for my nanos (2.5 gallon setups), going to try it on a couple larger ones and try to set up a large, high-light system like Aaron has going.


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## JDowns

http://www.marjonceramics.com/pages/products.html

You should be able to find everything you need there.

Clays can be bought powdered which will save you some time and energy (Raw Clays).

Everything else you need will be under Raw Materials.

Most everything you need will be under $2 a pound.


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## TheCryptKeeper

thanks for the helpful link! much appreciated!


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I second the art supply store!


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## lauraleellbp

Ken, which tank are you doing this in?

I'm planning on doing this too, once I'm ready to restart my 46gal as a planted tank. Ingg already hooked me up with my "raw materials" (thanks again Ingg!!!!:biggrin: )


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## TheCryptKeeper

Laura.... I am going to do this with my 75 gallon. I am going to try to do this in a one day marathon! I am already getting the mixture ready to go. I will take the plants out and put them in a few different bags. the fish will go into a large tupperware container with a filter running on it. I will drain the tank and away we go!


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## ingg

hooha said:


> you can get the clay at an arts store (i.e. "Michael's" around here). The Potash was difficult to find, the big stores (Home Depot and Lowes) don't carry them. I finally found some at a local nursery - you can do some 'phone shopping' beforehand. The dolomite can usually be found at an LFS that has reef supplies.
> 
> The mineralized setup works great for my nanos (2.5 gallon setups), going to try it on a couple larger ones and try to set up a large, high-light system like Aaron has going.


A caution here.

Most of the "clays" - all of them that I found locally except one loner product, actually - in stores like Michaels and Joanne's were not true clays, but man made polymer materials. When you see the self setting, etc, odds are it is polymer. Be very careful of what you are buying in those kinds of shops. Not that it'll do harm, but you want the iron content of real clay, which isn't in the polymers!

I went to a pottery supply store to get a block of real, pure clay. 

For Potash, call around to Farm and Family, John Deere Supply, type stores. It is a pure form of a fertilizer used for farming. Bag will say like 0-0-60 or 0-0-50.


FWIW - All my tanks are going to mineralized soil. I personally feel it is every bit as good as Aquasoil, etc, and in some ways, better! 

I've even begun to test the limits of those plants that are not supposed to fare well in it. Happy to be able to report that Tonina Fluviatilis is growing gangbusters, Belem is growing as well. Blyxa Japonica and Aubertii also doing well. Erio Type 2 is struggling. I slaughtered Ludwigia Pantanal in the past, need to try that one again. All plants that supposedly don't fare well in this substrate system (due to lack of water column dosing).


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

This is a thread worth a sticky 

Regards, Orlando


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## cah925

Well, I'm convinced to give it a try. I have a 40 breeder that I plan on tearing down soon to rescape. This is a perfect opportunity to give this a try.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I purchased some of this clay.. let me know if this is the right stuff.. it isn't polymer based.. here is the link
http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/31/


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## Riley

I am tearing down my 75 today to get ready for the soil as well! 

Very cool that alot of people are trying this!


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## Qckwzrd

I just got in from purchaseing some Potash, it was a 5lb bag. This should be enough since I'm using it on a small tank.

http://www.espoma.com/content.aspx?type=p&intCategoryID=1&id=7

If you have problems finding it I think they have a list of dealers on the website.


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## Chad

*Does anybody know how many bags of 3M Black T Grade CQ it would take to cover the mineralized topsoil in a 75 gal?
*


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## lauraleellbp

I'd just get one 50lb bag.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I was actually told by AaronT to get 2 bags of it.. so 100lbs


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## lauraleellbp

Really? Just for a cap? One bag gave me about 2" in my 90gal... course, it never hurts to have extra :biggrin:


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## Left C

"Step 7 – Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash

Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible."

In Step 7, could you use Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) instead of Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride - KCl)?

KCl is about 3 times more soluble in water at 20°C than K2SO4. KCl's solubility is 34.0 g/100 mL and K2SO4's solubility is 11.1 g/100 mL. 

Is this why KCl is used?


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## ingg

I did 2 bags in my 75, 1 bag and probably 20 pounds of accent stone in my 50.


LeftC, excellent question I have no idea on the answer to! It may be a cost thing - I bought 50 pounds of potash for what I'd buy a pound of Potassium Sulfate for.... or it may be a particle size thing, as K2SO4 is dust, while the potash is crystals like small pebbles (easier to lay down and put mud on top of without clumping it up)... not sure tho.... I'll see if I can ask!


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## TheCryptKeeper

I am on my last round of washing the soil. I will have to let it dry out over the weekend and then I am ready to go. I am anxious to do this.. but nervous too.


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## greatfish123

Good Luck! I just started a new tank with soil this past week and my worst fear of the water turning murky from the soil turned out to be unfounded.


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## lauraleellbp

Ken, are you letting yours driy inside the tub, or spreading it out?


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## TheCryptKeeper

I spread it out thinly on a black tarp in the direct sunlight.. I put it out about 8am and by 7pm it is totally dry. I go over to it a few times during the day to stomp the bigger clumps down more and sift it around to dry completely. you can definitely tell that it is working.. it is staying like a sandy consistency now. I have the clay and potash already along with the dolamite. I can't find the colorquartz sand here to save my life.. and I am not driving over 2hrs for it. I will have to find a substitute. I don't want to reuse my sms.. I would like to have a black sand.


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## ingg

greatfish123 said:


> Good Luck! I just started a new tank with soil this past week and my worst fear of the water turning murky from the soil turned out to be unfounded.


Don't worry, they'll be possibly be founded soon.  Every tank I've started goes through a cloudy, not quite green water stage a few days after startup. A couple of them I've heard tell of (but not had it go to it personally) have all out green water. Be patient with it if it happens and it'll fade, doesn't last long for me. 



Definitely put it on a tarp, it'll take forever to dry otherwise. Better off doing an extra cycle instead in my opinion, so you can dump more of the foamy goop off as you re-submerse it.

Oh! Don't skip sifting it - I like that it pulls out all the rocks and bits of wood, and you won't believe how it feels after, silty soft fluffy... it is amazing that is starts out as this lumpy bag of dirt, and ends up as super fine silt almost.



Torpedobarb, you could look into blasting sand, used for sandblasting.... not sure where to source the stuff though, or what colors it may have. It is also size graded though which is the big plus here - just not positive what it'll be made out of. Could also look into mixing some Flourite black sand into SMS or something? Just trying to find you options. Bummer about the 3M not being local anywhere for you.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I could try the flourite black sand.. I have to try and find it too!

tractor supply stores have the black diamond sand for sandblasting.. but not sure how that would look in the tank


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## ingg

Another option...

http://store.seacorals.net/esaqsablaqsu3.html

Might be able to find black sand in local craft and hobby stores as well.


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## AaronT

Left C said:


> "Step 7 – Add the Dolomite and Muriate of Potash
> 
> Sprinkle a light dusting of both the dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom glass of the tank. The bottom of the glass should still be somewhat visible."
> 
> In Step 7, could you use Potassium Sulfate (K2SO4) instead of Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride - KCl)?
> 
> KCl is about 3 times more soluble in water at 20°C than K2SO4. KCl's solubility is 34.0 g/100 mL and K2SO4's solubility is 11.1 g/100 mL.
> 
> Is this why KCl is used?


I suspect so. Honestly, I didn't develop this method, my friend Sean did a long time ago. Potassium is the one nutrient that seems to be limited using this method. The potash added initially is only to provide the plants with an initial potassium source for the first 3-5 months. After that period of time you may notice some older leaves on plants beginning to yellow and / or form pinholes in the leaves. This is the sign that it's time to dose potassium, but only a *tiny* little bit. I dose about 0.5 ppm / week and most of the time even less than that. That's all it takes, any more and you'll get algae. I didn't mention this in the article because I didn't want people to dose it too early or overdose it and get frustrated. Also, YMMV as my setups are all very high light and pressurized CO2 as well. Lower tech setups may not need this extra potassium dosing, though adding the potash initially is still advised.


Torpedobarb - Your LFS should be able to order the Flourite Black Sand for you. I've seen it online for a fairly cheap price. I'm using the Flourite Dark in my 75 gallon right now so it can be used. 


Sorry I didn't see this thread earlier folks. I was on vacation during its inception.  If anyone wants enough of the materials (potash, dolomite and clay) to startup a tank PM me and I'm happy to help out for the cost of materials and shipping.


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## Left C

Thank you for the great explanation, Aaron.

My local hardware store owner told me that the price of Potash has risen quite a bit lately. One of the main Potash mines, which is in Russia, got flooded. Canada has Potash mines too. When the Russian mine got flooded, the owners of the Canadian mines raised the price substationally.


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## AaronT

Left C said:


> My local hardware store owner told me that the price of Potash has risen quite a bit lately. One of the main Potash mines, which is in Russia, got flooded. Canada has Potash mines too. When the Russian mine got flooded, the owners of the Canadian mines raised the price substationally.


That's a bummer. I can't imagine it's terribly expensive still. It was pretty cheap to start with. Farmers are using bags and bags of it. One 40 lb. bag will last you 30 lifetimes for our purposes.


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## cah925

So far Potash was the most expensive thing I bought and it was less than $5 and it is way more than I'll need.

For those that have established tanks using this method, can you tell me if your water params changed from the tap water? I would like to keep my water soft, could I skip the dolemite?


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## AaronT

cah925 said:


> So far Potash was the most expensive thing I bought and it was less than $5 and it is way more than I'll need.
> 
> For those that have established tanks using this method, can you tell me if your water params changed from the tap water? I would like to keep my water soft, could I skip the dolemite?


It didn't change my water much if at all. The dolomite is a very slow releasing mineral.


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## TheCryptKeeper

well... I guess I have had to stay in the rinse cycle now for days.. we just had a crapload of rain in the last few days. enough to where my backwater valve couldn't even stop it.. so we ended up with water in the basement. nice. we were able to keep it at bay before it got to the aquarium. will have to wait until I have some sunshine to dry it out.


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## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> well... I guess I have had to stay in the rinse cycle now for days.. we just had a crapload of rain in the last few days. enough to where my backwater valve couldn't even stop it.. so we ended up with water in the basement. nice. we were able to keep it at bay before it got to the aquarium. will have to wait until I have some sunshine to dry it out.


You could dry it inside. Of course, I'd be sleeping outside if I tried that so YMMV.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I would too! I would have to have a nice tent to sleep in with all of the rain we have had!

I am in no hurry to get this done. I am going to let it dry out tomorrow. wash it one more time and let it dry.. then sift it through the screen and ready to go.

how thick of a pudding mixture do I make? really runny.. or more like cake batter?


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## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> I would too! I would have to have a nice tent to sleep in with all of the rain we have had!
> 
> I am in no hurry to get this done. I am going to let it dry out tomorrow. wash it one more time and let it dry.. then sift it through the screen and ready to go.
> 
> how thick of a pudding mixture do I make? really runny.. or more like cake batter?


More like cake batter.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Dont eat it!


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## lauraleellbp

Ewwww

If I tried to do something like that inside I'd have dog and cat paw prints all over the house and also would end up having to sift out cat poo... :icon_eek:


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## TheCryptKeeper

Nice Laura... real Nice... lmao..

I might be pudgy.. but I don't think I would eat it :hihi:

I will just have to watch how much water I add to the dirt to get it to the right thickness.


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## Left C

*Organic Valley Top Soil Question*

I picked up a 40# bag of Organic Valley Top Soil for $1.29 at Home Depot. I looked at Lowe's $1.49 40# bag of Top Soil. It had sticks in it. That's why I purchased the Organic Valley Top Soil. I didn't see any sticks.

There is very little on the web about this product, but I found one site that said the following. Do I need to take it back and find some other brand of top soil? This article says that it was in 30# bags, but mine is in a 40# bag.

From: http://guiltygardener.blogspot.com/2008/06/topsoil-in-bag.html
"The absolute worst product labeled "Topsoil" I erroneously bought was from Home Depot. It was cheaper than the lovely soil I got from Lowe's. Organic Valley Topsoil is packaged in 30-pound bags for only $1.29, so I purchased two of them to hopefully finish planting my porch on a recent Sunday. Upon mixing and potting up my hoard of tender beauties, I did not notice that it was any different than the preferred Lowe's topsoil. This assessment of the so called soil that was now blended nicely and in a selection of pots was very short lived. The truth becomes apparent in the watering.

This is not topsoil, but black silt. Just because a soil is black does not mean it is good! Silt comes from the bottom of bogs and does not drain. When wet, silt is black slime. If you add a so called soil such as this one to a potting mix, the water will just sit on top of the pot and take a long time to filter through the pot to the bottom. Silt also has very little nutrients in it that are available to the plant. To state it quite bluntly ... this is not soil, but garbage that someone is making a good chunk of change through at least one retail store that is in almost every town in the USA."

Do you think that this is a bad product? There were several people at Home Depot buying this top soil to fill in places from the bad rain that we had lately.

Lowe's Top Soil: "The third bagged product that was wonderful quality was purchased at Lowe's Garden Center, fifty pounds for $2.50 before tax. Unfortunately I don't have the information on who actually bagged this soil. Lowe's being the highest quality of the big box garden centers, I would suggest you not buy soil at any of the others. All I can say about the packaging was it was white and labeled "Topsoil" It did contain a slight amount of sphagnum peat moss which was mostly used to prevent clumping from moisture taken on while in storage. A great buy and an excellent portion to potting blends for best results."

The Lowe's Top Soil that I looked at was in 40# bags and $1.49. It might be a different product than what is mentioned above, but I really don't know.


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## lauraleellbp

I'd probably check out Diana Walstad's El Natural forum over on APC for feedback on this one. I know I've skimmed through some threads over there debating the pros and cons of different soil brands.


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## Left C

Thank you Laura Lee. I rarely read the El Natural forum.

My local Wally World used to have many pallets of plain top soil, but they didn't even have one bag today.


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## cah925

The first bag I bought for this project turned out to be cow manure (from a local nursery). After that I went to Lowe's and bought their cheap topsoil (approx $1.50 40lb bag). I am very happy with that selection although I would like to warn people that it's not all dirt. I found a couple large rusty nails along with several small pieces of broken glass. Luckily I was wearing gloves while I sifted and did not suffer any injuries.


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## lauraleellbp

cah925 said:


> The first bag I bought for this project turned out to be cow manure (from a local nursery). After that I went to Lowe's and bought their cheap topsoil (approx $1.50 40lb bag). I am very happy with that selection although I would like to warn people that it's not all dirt. I found a couple large rusty nails along with several small pieces of broken glass. Luckily I was wearing gloves while I sifted and did not suffer any injuries.


LOL now you got me hoping I'll find an arrowhead...

Cow manure? ewwwwwww


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## cah925

lauraleellbp said:


> LOL now you got me hoping I'll find an arrowhead...
> 
> Cow manure? ewwwwwww


Yep, there was no indication on the bag of the "ingredients". Only after I ripped open the bag I started to doubt that it was plain ol dirt. So I hopped on the internet and found the manufacturer and low and behold it was cow poo. My grandmother's garden will be the happy recipient of the opened bag and my tanks will avoid a possible catastrophe.


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## ingg

LeftC, that sounds like exactly the soil you want. (the 1.29 from HD one)

It may not drain well for potted plants, but silt is perfect for us - we are growing bog plants by and large, anyhow!

At a guess... white bag, red and black in the label? That is exactly the soil I use. Do not get the stuff with sphagnum moss etc. in it, that stuff is not what you want - you WANT the silty, thick, cheapest you can buy stuff. Looks like dark dark clumps of mud when the bag is first opened, and dense. Smells... musty, swampy.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I got mine at Menards for .99 per bag. exactly what ingg said.. smells musty. but is losing its smell after each wash and dry cycle


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## Hockiumguru

Wow, this is a great thread, I will be setting up a 65 Gallon high light tank in the new year, my hope is to make it a massive shrimp tank, possibly supported by furcata rainbows.
This recipe won't cause any harm to the shrimp will it?


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## AaronT

Hockiumguru said:


> Wow, this is a great thread, I will be setting up a 65 Gallon high light tank in the new year, my hope is to make it a massive shrimp tank, possibly supported by furcata rainbows.
> This recipe won't cause any harm to the shrimp will it?


No, I keep shrimp and furcatus rainbows in my tanks. Both are doing very well. 

For everyone trying to find the right topsoil to use this is the one I use from Home Depot:


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## Left C

Hi guys

I have a little more info about the Organic Valley Top Soil that I got from Home Depot. It is in a white bag with navy blue, kelly green and black print.

The following statements come from: http://www.mulchmartofiowa.com/soilblends.htm

"Top Soil (Available in Bulk and 40 lb. Bags)

A mixture of selected organic matter - rich in humus and compost. Excellent drainage properties allow root aeration without excessive leaching."

This is an altogether description from my earlier post. Is it the wrong top soil for a mineralized substrate?

I haven't opened this bag to check it out.

Tanks,
Left C


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## AaronT

Left C said:


> Hi guys
> 
> I have a little more info about the Organic Valley Top Soil that I got from Home Depot. It is in a white bag with navy blue, kelly green and black print.
> 
> The following statements come from: http://www.mulchmartofiowa.com/soilblends.htm
> 
> "Top Soil (Available in Bulk and 40 lb. Bags)
> 
> A mixture of selected organic matter - rich in humus and compost. Excellent drainage properties allow root aeration without excessive leaching."
> 
> This is an altogether description from my earlier post. Is it the wrong top soil for a mineralized substrate?
> 
> I haven't opened this bag to check it out.
> 
> Tanks,
> Left C


No, you don't want it to be rich in humus, peat, compost or any other organics. You just want dirt. These types of top soils are misleading because they are actually what's known as a soilless mix. They are meant to be mixed with dirt from your yard in order to provide plants with the nutrients they need. We're trying to remove all of these organics and break down the ones that are left so they are mineralized. Essentially we are making silt.

See if they have the kind that I put up the picture of. That's been a really reliable one so far. It will still have some sticks and such in there that need to be sifted out.


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## lauraleellbp

Hey Aaron, would you be willing to post your mineralization process over here? Maybe we can get a Mod to make it a stickey, even- that would be awesome.


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## AaronT

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey Aaron, would you be willing to post your mineralization process over here? Maybe we can get a Mod to make it a stickey, even- that would be awesome.


Yeah, I suppose. Couldn't we just put a sticky with a link? You can link the article on my club site so as to avoid the possible conflict of interest.


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## Left C

Thanks Aaron!

Doesn't it seem that there is very little regulation in the various top soil products' descriptions?

There is no list of ingredients listed on my bag of top soil. ??

I printed out the white, red and black picture of the Nature's Pride top soil that you and some other people are using.

I'll look around for it.

Again, many thanks.

Left C


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## lauraleellbp

Works for me, Aaron: http://gwapa.org/wordpress/articles/mineralized-soil-substrate/

Now we just all need to go harrass (I mean ask very nicely :flick a Mod till we get a sticky...


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## TheCryptKeeper

Left C said:


> Thanks Aaron!
> 
> Doesn't it seem that there is very little regulation in the various top soil products' descriptions?
> 
> There is no list of ingredients listed on my bag of top soil. ??
> 
> 
> Left C



LOL.. list of ingredients.. dirt! lmao!

not making fun.. just thought it was funny. :hihi:


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## lauraleellbp

Aaron,

If potassium is usually the first macro to be exhausted from the soil, why not add more potash to the recipe?


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## AaronT

I suppose you could. It still runs out eventually. The others virtually never run out. Sean has tanks going that are 15 years old.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

:bounce::bounce:15 years!!!


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## lauraleellbp

Orlando said:


> :bounce::bounce:15 years!!!


+

:fish::fish1::fish::fish1::fish:


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## looking4roselines

Instead of dosing potassium on a regular basis once its depleted, a way to replenish the potash in the soil is by rolling a ball of clay with the potash inside the ball and shove it to the bottom of the substrate once its dried up. I got the idea from a link in Aaron's original thread.


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## AaronT

looking4roselines said:


> Instead of dosing potassium on a regular basis once its depleted, a way to replenish the potash in the soil is by rolling a ball of clay with the potash inside the ball and shove it to the bottom of the substrate once its dried up. I got the idea from a link in Aaron's original thread.


Yes, that will work too. It's also a good way to put some new soil in as the years go by and it gets removed from uprootings and such. You can freeze little balls of soil.

How's your tank doing? It's been up for a few weeks at least now right?


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## lauraleellbp

I like that idea, potash in a bit of clay. :thumbsup:

I've been reading through your article again, Aaron; do most people typically get a bit of GW at the startup?

IMO GW really isn't that big a deal, and I prefer just to wait it out... but it would be interesting to know exactly what feeds it and if there's anything that could be "tweaked" to eliminate it...


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## mistergreen

do water changes until the water is clear and don't blast the tank with full light at first. There shouldn't be issues with GW or any other algae. Nutrients & light are the ingredients for GW.

And fish poop and decaying plants will add back some of the nutrients... It takes a long time before K runs out. Remember this is not EI, so no weekly 50% water change. It's pretty harmful (as in algae outbreaks) to do that in this setup.


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## TheCryptKeeper

so how often do you have to change the water and at what %?

I am on my last drying cycle today. will start doing this as soon as I get my sand. can't wait. 

will have to hit up looking4roselines for some nice plants to start it out!? lol


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## ingg

For water changes, I do 20-30% biweekly on the non-automated tanks. I just top them off in the off week.

Automated tank does about 4 gallons a day, which is about 15% weekly.


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## cah925

I like the idea of less water changes! I'm on my second dry cycle. It's been overcast and cooler here the last few days so it's taking longer to dry. :icon_frow


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## mistergreen

if you don't have that many fish, you can go months without a water change.


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## AaronT

mistergreen has the right idea. Run your lights at about 1/2 or 2/3 power for the first few weeks if you can. If you can't change the intensity change the duration to 7 or 8 hours.

The green water in these setups is likely caused by an initial nutrient release from the soil. The mineralization process isn't 100% and there will still be a residual few percent of nutrients leached into the water column for the first few weeks. Once these get used up and changed out (small water changes is key) things will settle down. The bacteria have to establish in the substrate and filter as well. Starting with a mature filter is a really nice jumpstart so if you're redoing a tank I suggest keeping the filter running on another tank to keep it seeded. If you don't have another tank run the filter on a rubbermaid tub filled with tank water.

I do my water changes the same as Ingg, about 20% whenever I get around to it and top offs the rest of the time. There's no need to waste water and change 50% of it every week. 

Laura has the right idea with the green water. Wait it out. Green water in a new setup can actually be a welcome thing. No other algae seem to be able to take hold when it is present and the plants will continue to grow despite the cloud of green. It will clear up on its own if left to mature. Doing large water changes will only prolong the process. Of course, if you have a UV sterilizer or diatom filter feel free to use either one.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I love this type of system for planted tanks for many reasons. 
1) It save the earths precious water supply
2) Less maintenance on my end.
3) My plants grow better then any tank with normal substrate(sms, eco, Flourite).
4) Wife stays happy because I don't fool around with my tank so much except for trimming. 
The whole planted community needs to try this......

Regards, Orlando


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## AaronT

Orlando said:


> I love this type of system for planted tanks for many reasons.
> 1) It save the earths precious water supply
> 2) Less maintenance on my end.
> 3) My plants grow better then any tank with normal substrate(sms, eco, Flourite).
> 4) Wife stays happy because I don't fool around with my tank so much except for trimming.
> The whole planted community needs to try this......
> 
> Regards, Orlando


Great! So you're having success with it so far then I take it?


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

Very much so Aaron! The tank is only a couple of weeks old (2 weeks) and it looks good so far..There are tiny bits of Diatom Algae, but no big deal......
Im on autopilot I guess at this point waiting for things to start growing and filling in. I have already done my first trim


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I also would like to thank you Aaron for introducing this method to me and countless others on the boards. So,,Thank You 

Regards, Orlando


----------



## lauraleellbp

Hey, everyone PM some Mods so we can get a stickey! :wink:


----------



## Riley

I have a couple questions for those that have set this up recently.

I started with a load of stem plants to get the tank going. I have species like R. colorata and Ammania gracilis that are not really showing any color. A couple of my Ludwigias are showing some sort of deficiency. I am curious is anyone else seeing this? Is this just an adjustment period before the roots hit the mud? Thanks for your help.


----------



## ingg

Riley said:


> I have a couple questions for those that have set this up recently.
> 
> I started with a load of stem plants to get the tank going. I have species like R. colorata and Ammania gracilis that are not really showing any color. A couple of my Ludwigias are showing some sort of deficiency. I am curious is anyone else seeing this? Is this just an adjustment period before the roots hit the mud? Thanks for your help.


I've had some ludwigias, and polygonums, transition to what looked like emersed form and back when first planted. Once they root, they go back and are fine. Especially true of very short trimmings in my experience.

Some plants always grow just a bit differently than a water column dosed tank. Because they are root feeding almost completely, they tend to be slightly more dense, shorter distance to nodes sort of thing. Food is coming from the stem, not from the leaves, so...(You gotta see what I can do to Hygro Low Grow, hehe, I can turn it into a rotala looking thing!)

Coloring like Aaron gets needs a lean water column and good lighting. If you have both, it'll come. Folks always wondered how I get Stellata to color up the way I do - once established, it just gets nuts the colors you can get. Doing it to Ludwigia Cuba now, and have red stems on it, pretty wild.


----------



## mistergreen

yeah, the idea behind this is a rich substrate and lean water column. Stem plants in general don't do as well as rooted plants. Don't have the lights on too high.. You'll see stem deficiencies really fast.. shoot for 1.5 - 2 wpg in larger tanks.

And it's ok to cheat and add ferts water column. Oh, don't forget to add CO2 or excel.


----------



## lauraleellbp

ingg said:


> Coloring like Aaron gets needs a lean water column and good lighting. If you have both, it'll come. Folks always wondered how I get Stellata to color up the way I do - once established, it just gets nuts the colors you can get. Doing it to Ludwigia Cuba now, and have red stems on it, pretty wild.


oOo don't TELL me stuff like that... you'll have me tearing up my almost FININSHED 90gal just to convert the substrate... :icon_eek:


----------



## cah925

I was planning on getting rid of some of those plants ingg listed, but now I'll hang on to them until I can get my soil mineralized!


----------



## ingg

mistergreen said:


> yeah, the idea behind this is a rich substrate and lean water column. Stem plants in general don't do as well as rooted plants. Don't have the lights on too high.. You'll see stem deficiencies really fast.. shoot for 1.5 - 2 wpg in larger tanks.
> 
> And it's ok to cheat and add ferts water column. Oh, don't forget to add CO2 or excel.


In my experience so far, no, most stem plants do fantastic. (Umm, they are rooted plants, anyhow? ) Better than I ever did in water column dosed tanks, but I'm lousy at being consistent on dosing, admittedly.

I'm pretty sure I killed tonina Belem. Tonina Fluviatilis is doing okay. Hygros go INSANE. Rotalas go insane. Ammania Bonsai, also doing fantastic. Most ludwigias too - I killed Pantanal, but I think almost everyone I know kills Pantanal.

Java ferns grow slower, as do Anubias, if tied up on rocks/wood.

You want to be very, very, VERY careful about dosing the water column in my experience. Just a little wee bit can cause algae explosions - I tried it, I stopped very quickly. I dose .2 (yes, point two) ppm of potassium once or twice a week, and that is it.


----------



## Lorenmws

Can anyone post pics as they do this?

Loren


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## AaronT

Riley said:


> I have a couple questions for those that have set this up recently.
> 
> I started with a load of stem plants to get the tank going. I have species like R. colorata and Ammania gracilis that are not really showing any color. A couple of my Ludwigias are showing some sort of deficiency. I am curious is anyone else seeing this? Is this just an adjustment period before the roots hit the mud? Thanks for your help.


This isn't uncommon. The short answer is, yes, it does take a while for the roots to take. After about 3-4 weeks the plants should start to take off. It sounds as though you did a very thorough job of mineralizing the soil and have almost no ammonia left to get them started. Just be patient and it will happen for you. 



> yeah, the idea behind this is a rich substrate and lean water column. Stem plants in general don't do as well as rooted plants. Don't have the lights on too high.. You'll see stem deficiencies really fast.. shoot for 1.5 - 2 wpg in larger tanks.
> 
> And it's ok to cheat and add ferts water column. Oh, don't forget to add CO2 or excel.


I'm growing dozens of different stem plants with no problems. I also run 3 wpg on larger tanks with no problems. You have to run pressurized CO2 along with the higher lighting though, that's true with any tank setup.

I wouldn't dose water column ferts. That's asking for trouble. What you can do is use something like Flourish Tabs. I break them into smaller pieces just to give the plants enough boost to let the substrate mature for the first 4 weeks or so.


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## AaronT

Here's a journal I did of my AGA contest entry last year. http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/aquascaping/40981-rotala-rainbow-journal.html


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## TheCryptKeeper

I located my sand.. I will have to go to downtown chicago to pick it up.. but oh well.

the soil is ready to go. it is like sand itself. pick up a handfull and it will just pour out of your hand like sand. no odors.


hey Aaron. will I still have to have extreme circulation in the tank? I have 2 rena xp3's at each corner with loc line to push it to the middle. I have strong flow with them. I also have 2 hydor powerheads.. the koreila style. I would like to take them out. they are unsightly.


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> I located my sand.. I will have to go to downtown chicago to pick it up.. but oh well.
> 
> the soil is ready to go. it is like sand itself. pick up a handfull and it will just pour out of your hand like sand. no odors.
> 
> 
> hey Aaron. will I still have to have extreme circulation in the tank? I have 2 rena xp3's at each corner with loc line to push it to the middle. I have strong flow with them. I also have 2 hydor powerheads.. the koreila style. I would like to take them out. they are unsightly.


I should think the two filters would be enough circulation. I'm a huge fan of circulation, but can understand the desire to not stare at equipment in your tank.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

AaronT said:


> I should think the two filters would be enough circulation. I'm a huge fan of circulation, but can understand the desire to not stare at equipment in your tank.



well.. not just that.. the floating plant debris stick to the outside of the powerheads and looks awful. it also keeps my rasboras from schooling nicely. when they are off.. they school alot. even the roseline sharks school.

I can't wait to get this done.


----------



## MikeP_123

how messy does this get when you uproot or change plants? Also can you add a layer of this to another substrate? or maybe mix them?


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## AaronT

MikeP_123 said:


> how messy does this get when you uproot or change plants? Also can you add a layer of this to another substrate? or maybe mix them?


It can get fairly messy. Then again so can any other substrate. The trick is to be gentle, turn off any water flow and then do a water change before turning off the filter. 

You can add any cap as a top layer. The soil will always settle to the bottom just as a matter of physics. The smaller particles settle to the bottom.


----------



## Left C

I'm having a hard time finding any top soil that does not have any organics in them. Even the very cheap ones have some organics in them including ash, bark, peat, sticks, etc. I know that many people have found sticks, plastic, glass, etc in their bags.

My Home Depot doesn't have the Nature's Pride Top Soil like the picture below. What are some of the other brands that are usable? 

I went to eight different stores today looking for top soil. Wally World got in some cheap top soil today from Scott's, but it isn't their Premium Top Soil. It had some organics in it too. I can't find this top soil listed on Scott's site or WalMart's site. Should I grab it up and use it?


----------



## Riley

How would topsoil from a landscape supply place work? 

It might be an easier source for a lot of people that can't find bags. 

As a side note....I am finally seeing some good growth in my plants. I am able to grow a couple plants that I have never been able to keep alive before ( R. sp. Vietnam and Ludwigia arcuata) so that is promising. My Hygro. sp Porto Velho is doing quite well too. So far so good!


----------



## ingg

LeftC, some organics is okay - all of them will have some. You just don't want organic top soil, which ends to be an adder of all ground up wood and such for adding to your yard to get soil conditioned.

Cheapest bag, no ferts added, no premium, none of that. You want the stuff that is cheap cheap, just plain old fill dirt topsoil.


----------



## Left C

Thank you for your response, ingg. It's funny now that I was going nuts trying to find dirt.

The following description about Nature's Pride Top Soil comes from: http://www.coastalsupplyinc.com/npsoils.htm and the bag looks different.
"A true mineral top soil enhanced with organic compost and aged pine bark fines; ideal for top dressing lawns or any fill applications."

Hi Riley, I was thinking about doing that. There are two landscaping places near me that carries top soil. When the rain stops, I'll check them out.


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## Left C

I haven't seen this question asked. Do you need a dechlor/dechloramine while you are rinsing the soil so that not so many of the bacteria are killed?


----------



## ingg

Nope, the biggest bacterial action is happening as it dries out on the tarp. The underwater part is a big rinse - you'll get almost a foam coming out to the water surface that you pour off in the middle of the underwater time.


----------



## Left C

Thank you again, ingg. You have been very helpful.


----------



## themainer

After reading a lot about this method, I am surprised that there isn't any talk about Nitrate. Maybe I missed something, but where are the plants getting their N from? It seems like that would have to be added on occasion, especially if you have high light.

Thoughts?


----------



## AaronT

themainer said:


> After reading a lot about this method, I am surprised that there isn't any talk about Nitrate. Maybe I missed something, but where are the plants getting their N from? It seems like that would have to be added on occasion, especially if you have high light.
> 
> Thoughts?


There's plenty of available nitrogen in the mineralized soil. It's not necessarily in the form of nitrate though.


----------



## themainer

That's true. I figured it wouldn't be enough though, even during the few first months of tank life. I am sure a lot depends on what plant needs, lighting, etc..

I guess I will just have to find out for myself! Great read.. I love learning new things when it comes to planted tanks.


----------



## plantbrain

I collect nice clay aquatic sediments here in CA.
I go out to a delta and collect all I ever want.
You do not need a 1/2 cubic yard.

Just a little bit.
Left C, I have a few tons. I think I can add another few lbs to you for the needle valves.

The best results are with a 10% organic matter content and good clay content, this is what ADA's AS is about.

A simple method to prevent the fines from uprooting and getting all over:
Mix the soil bottom layer with 3: sand/soil mix.

Then add say 2" worth of this mix, not 1/2 or really dense super rich 100% soil on the bottom. You are not limiting algae here, just trying to prevent a mess. Much more practical matter. 

You can also amend this soil. Use say Osmocoat, add maybe 10 grams per sqft. This will last 6-12 months or so.You might also add a little dolomite for Ca, Mg.

Really up to you.
Not much standardization, consistency with using soils, which likely is why many stay away from it, but they have a long history and do work well.
Changing the trim methods, go to topping vs uprooting also can keep things cleaner and simply doing a water change after a pruning always is a good idea as well.

I dry the soil after letting it soak to help compact it and get it a nice potter's clay consistency, then mix and add.

After planting 950 pots for my own research, maybe 2000 for other research projects, you get fairly good at knowing the N, P, Fe and the CEC, OM ranges of the sediments as they can make a mess.

BTW, simply using pots for difference test can work quite well and can spot treat certain plants if curious. I did this a few times in the tanks at the lab here.

Hope this helps,

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Bogzla

How crucial is the drying out period?
I have very little space (none outside except right next to a road) and would probably end up using the airing cupboard, but worry this would end up drying it out too rapidly for the ol' bacterial action to take place effectively..


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## AaronT

Bogzla said:


> How crucial is the drying out period?
> I have very little space (none outside except right next to a road) and would probably end up using the airing cupboard, but worry this would end up drying it out too rapidly for the ol' bacterial action to take place effectively..


The drying out period is the most crucial part of the whole process. Exposing the soil to lots of oxygen while it is moist is the key to mineralizing the soil. You could mist the soil to keep it from drying out to fast. It usually dries in a day on a good hot summer day.

I'm not familiar with an airing cupboard?


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## Bogzla

AaronT said:


> The drying out period is the most crucial part of the whole process. Exposing the soil to lots of oxygen while it is moist is the key to mineralizing the soil. You could mist the soil to keep it from drying out to fast. It usually dries in a day on a good hot summer day.
> 
> I'm not familiar with an airing cupboard?


Guess it's a UK only phrase - airing cupboard as in for airing clothes 
boiler cupboard? Where the hot water immersion heater is - nice and warm, which is probably good for bacteria if it doesn't dry out too fast - I guess it would probably be comparible to leaving it out in the sun :thumbsup:


----------



## Qckwzrd

I dont have a yard to dry my soil out so I've been doing it on a glass table in front of a window  I'm using it for a 15 gallon tank so I dont need a ton of soil or space. I've been doing this for about 3 weeks now. I couldnt find topsoil so I had to use potting soil thats why I've been doing the rinse process so much. Anyone have any pics to post or updates?


----------



## AaronT

Bogzla said:


> Guess it's a UK only phrase - airing cupboard as in for airing clothes
> boiler cupboard? Where the hot water immersion heater is - nice and warm, which is probably good for bacteria if it doesn't dry out too fast - I guess it would probably be comparible to leaving it out in the sun :thumbsup:


Ah, yes I do believe that is a UK term.  

That should be fine to use. If it dries out too fast just mist it a bit to keep it moist longer.


----------



## mistergreen

just curious... Is mineralizing soil the right term for this process?
When I think of mineralizing, I think of fossils where minerals goes in and replace the organic compounds. Is this what's going on?


----------



## ingg

Pretty darn close to the same thing, yeah.

You are releasing/getting rid of the organic compounds and trapping mineral content in the soil particles.


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## AaronT

Here's an excerpt from a page describing the different types of topsoils and their properties...http://www.itc.nl/~rossiter/Docs/FAO/topsoil/TopsoilClassAppA.pdf



> Rendzic (m1) Topsoils that have, throughout their thickness, well-mixed, completely mineralized
> OM and an OC content of at least 1% throughout, that contain calcareous coarse
> fragments and overly calcareous materials with a CaCO3 equivalent of >40%, that
> have blackish colours with moist values and chromas <3.5, that are saturated with
> Ca or Ca plus Mg as dominant ion(s) with a pH of 7.0-8.5, and that have granular,
> crumb or (very) fine subangular blocky structures.


OM = Organic Matter

I'm not sure it fits this description to a 'T' but it's close enough.


----------



## Bogzla

Right, I think I'll definitely give this a try... I've not managed to find bags of actual topsoil in my local garden centres but there is a wooded area not too far from here where I can scrounge some.. should imagine baking it in the oven first will kill off any nasties.. 
Also the soil here is kinda chalky so I probably won't have to worry about the dolomite (which is proving a bit of a headache to get hold of in small quantities)
so I need to locate some muriate of potash (this is basically KCl right?) and clay.

I'll kick this off next week.. should be interesting


----------



## ingg

Not KCl. Look for farming, tractor supply, feed and seed type places. Places that sell agricultural goods for larger scale farmers.

There are two items sold as potash. One of them is the road salt for ice breaking you are referring to. 

The other is a fertilizing compound used by farmers. This is the one we want, and I was under the assumption they are two different materials. I'm assuming here the UK will have the same nomenclature on fertilizers in NPK - it'll be labelled as an 0-0-50 or 0-0-60 fertilizer.


----------



## Bogzla

So does anyone know the chemical formulation of these fertilisers?
I'm a little confused since a few references state Muriate of Potash = Potassium Chloride (KCl)
I'd rather avoid buying a massive bag of ferts since I'll only need a sprinkling for my 7 gallon and have pretty much 0 storage space, and I can source small amounts of (Pure) KCl without too much trouble..

cheers,
Bogzla


----------



## cah925

Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


----------



## AaronT

Bogzla said:


> I've not managed to find bags of actual topsoil in my local garden centres but there is a wooded area not too far from here where I can scrounge some.. should imagine baking it in the oven first will kill off any nasties..


There's no need to bake the soil. That will only serve to turn the organics into ash. You want to convert the organics into bioavailable mineralized nutrients.

Yes, Muriate of Potash = KCL.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

cah925 said:


> Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


contact Aaron.. he usually has some extra!


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> contact Aaron.. he usually has some extra!


I just sent him some yesterday. :biggrin:


----------



## cah925

Thanks AaronT!


----------



## Left C

Some people recommend that it is OK to put a thin layer of peat on the bottom of the aquarium and then cover it with the substrate. This lowers the pH.

Using peat is not recommended with mineralized soil. The Dolomite increases the pH.

Why isn't peat used with mineralized soil?


----------



## AaronT

Left C said:


> Some people recommend that it is OK to put a thin layer of peat on the bottom of the aquarium and then cover it with the substrate. This lowers the pH.
> 
> Using peat is not recommended with mineralized soil. The Dolomite increases the pH.
> 
> Why isn't peat used with mineralized soil?


That thin layer of peat that people recommend isn't to lower the pH, it's to start the bacteria going with some organic material for them to feed on. The mineralized soil will have enough of this already. The dolomite in the soil is pretty minimal and also won't really alter the pH or water parameters of the tank.


----------



## mistergreen

cah925 said:


> Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


you can use regular garden limestone if you can't find dolomite.


----------



## RLee

cah925 said:


> Does anyone have any extra dolomite they could part with?


 Just a thought but Sea Chem has a product for raising the GH of ro/di water called Equalibrium. I have used this product for that purpose and it works well. It seems that dolomite is hard to find and when you do it comes in a large quantity. Sea Chem's "Equalibrium" is available from many sites and comes in various quantities 1.3 lbs on up. I know it is more expensive but might work for those who can't find or store dolomite. Plus it has some K2O and Iron


----------



## plantbrain

SeaChem Eq is the same pretty much as Barr's GH booster which Aquarium fertilizers.com sells.

It's mostly K2SO4, MgSO4, CaSO4, which dissolve fairly fast, dolomite is the most resistant form to add Mg, Ca but still dissolves. Calcite or aragonite will work but adds no Mg............

I use delta clay soil which needs no mineralization and has good Ca and Mg already in place.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## erijnal

A pair of Midifleurs I got from ingg were growing really nice leaves in the mineralized topsoil tank I started about a month or two ago, but now that I've got my CO2 going (thought I had a leak so it was out of commission for a while) the leaves are ENORMOUS and have such nice veining.

So far it doesn't look like I've run into crazy algae trouble except for the brown stringy stuff.

Thumbs up so far!


----------



## AaronT

mistergreen said:


> you can use regular garden limestone if you can't find dolomite.


Dolomite lime found at garden centers doesn't work. I've tried it before and it causes issues. The better substitution is crushed coral.


----------



## AaronT

erijnal said:


> A pair of Midifleurs I got from ingg were growing really nice leaves in the mineralized topsoil tank I started about a month or two ago, but now that I've got my CO2 going (thought I had a leak so it was out of commission for a while) the leaves are ENORMOUS and have such nice veining.
> 
> So far it doesn't look like I've run into crazy algae trouble except for the brown stringy stuff.
> 
> Thumbs up so far!


That's great to hear James. The diatom algae is pretty much unavoidable in any new setup in my experience. Hopefully that will clear for you soon too.


----------



## mistergreen

AaronT said:


> Dolomite lime found at garden centers doesn't work. I've tried it before and it causes issues. The better substitution is crushed coral.


what kind of issues?


----------



## plantbrain

mistergreen said:


> what kind of issues?


I've not found any issues with dolomite going on 30+ years.
I'd be interested to know also:thumbsup:

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## AaronT

If you can get the correct dolomite from a garden center it's fine. You're looking for CaMg(CO3)2 . However, many garden centers carry other products under the name dolomite that are not the same and don't work well for this application. 

This is what you are looking for.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

AaronT said:


> If you can get the correct dolomite from a garden center it's fine. You're looking for CaMg(CO3)2 . However, many garden centers carry other products under the name dolomite that are not the same and don't work well for this application.
> 
> This is what you are looking for.



O.k. There is mention of substituting crushed coral for dolomite and I find this somewhat confusing. With respect to fertilization and mineral uptake by aquarium plants it is often suggested to dose calcium with magnesium as plants would have difficulty uptaking one without the other. If crushed coral is only calcium, without any magnesium unlike dolomite, would this not cause issues. Would one have to dose magnesium, via the water column, to prevent any issues. Just curious. Aaron have you experimented with crushed coral as a substitute for dolomite in your mineralized soil recipe and have you noticed any differences between using dolomite vs crushed coral?? Thanks.


----------



## Left C

AaronT said:


> That thin layer of peat that people recommend isn't to lower the pH, it's to start the bacteria going with some organic material for them to feed on. The mineralized soil will have enough of this already. The dolomite in the soil is pretty minimal and also won't really alter the pH or water parameters of the tank.


Hi Aaron

Thank you very much for the info and the starter kit.

Left C


----------



## ingg

Dolomite lime - more properly Dolomitic Limestone - contains the concentration of calcium and magnesium both versus pure dolomite. 

Pure dolomite limestone is (like Aragonite) is all CaCO3, gardening versions of dolomite have wide ranges of CaCO2 and MgCO3 both depending on what they claim to be in the fine print. Gardening Lime can also have other forms - oxides and hydroxides of Calcium.

There is a lot of variance in what can be found from different sources, in other words, and those variations can cause the issues Aaron is describing.


----------



## AaronT

Homer_Simpson said:


> O.k. There is mention of substituting crushed coral for dolomite and I find this somewhat confusing. With respect to fertilization and mineral uptake by aquarium plants it is often suggested to dose calcium with magnesium as plants would have difficulty uptaking one without the other. If crushed coral is only calcium, without any magnesium unlike dolomite, would this not cause issues. Would one have to dose magnesium, via the water column, to prevent any issues. Just curious. Aaron have you experimented with crushed coral as a substitute for dolomite in your mineralized soil recipe and have you noticed any differences between using dolomite vs crushed coral?? Thanks.


I've never tried the crushed coral. I have put crushed coral in my filters to harden water and it works pretty well. There should be enough magnesium in your water to allow for proper growth of the plants. The dolomite is better to put in the substrate if you can find it for the reasons you mentioned, but the amount we are using really isn't that much to begin with so substituting with crushed coral shouldn't pose any issues.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

AaronT said:


> I've never tried the crushed coral. I have put crushed coral in my filters to harden water and it works pretty well. There should be enough magnesium in your water to allow for proper growth of the plants. The dolomite is better to put in the substrate if you can find it for the reasons you mentioned, but the amount we are using really isn't that much to begin with so substituting with crushed coral shouldn't pose any issues.


O.k. thanks.


----------



## Riley

Hey,

Just thought I would update the progress on my soil tank. 

My 75 gallon has been up and growing for about 6 weeks now. Everything is growing fantastic now. It took a few weeks for everything to adjust to the substrate and get going but sure enough it happened. I have not had any problems with plants adjusting except for a couple soft water plants....but the tank will going to RO soon enough.

I had a decent outbreak of algae but that seems to be clearing up now too. I am only left with the remnants of the diatom algae. 

Just wanted to say thanks for bringing this method of planted tanks to light! I will be setting up another tank with this stuff really soon.


----------



## AaronT

Riley said:


> Hey,
> 
> Just thought I would update the progress on my soil tank.
> 
> My 75 gallon has been up and growing for about 6 weeks now. Everything is growing fantastic now. It took a few weeks for everything to adjust to the substrate and get going but sure enough it happened. I have not had any problems with plants adjusting except for a couple soft water plants....but the tank will going to RO soon enough.
> 
> I had a decent outbreak of algae but that seems to be clearing up now too. I am only left with the remnants of the diatom algae.
> 
> Just wanted to say thanks for bringing this method of planted tanks to light! I will be setting up another tank with this stuff really soon.


Thanks for sharing your progress with us Riley. It's nice to be hearing so many success stories so far.


----------



## fishyface

great news Riley! i'll be undertaking this same method soon enough as well. just waiting for my tank, stand/ canopy delivery and i'm set. i'm just finishing about 3 weeks worth of soil prep and getting everything else together so i'm pretty anxious now and can't wait to see how this works out!


----------



## cah925

I finished mine about 2 weeks ago. I used the soil on two 40B's and a 5.5 gal. So far so good. I have a little algae in the first tank, nothing in the second or 5.5 yet. I went ahead and put a shot (overdose) of Excel in the tank to try and kill the algae. The plants seem to like it and some have grown a few inches already.


----------



## greatfish123

I added mineralized soil to my tank almost 2 months ago. The plants have really taken well to it and are growing very well. I just have a slight bit of hair algae. But i never experienced green water or major algae disasters just the usual brown algae in the beginning. I'm just waiting for the HC to fill the front. Stats abt tank: pressurized CO2, 5.5hrs of light(4*36W T5). I haven't dosed anything in this tank except some small amount of potassium..

Here is a pic of the tank:


----------



## Gatekeeper

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey, everyone PM some Mods so we can get a stickey! :wink:


This is definetly worthy of a Sticky. I have actually looked for this thread a few times and had to search for it, so that is enough to get my vote for Sticky.

DONE!


----------



## lauraleellbp

YAYYYY! Glenn for President!!!

(oops- nothing truly "political" behind that... we just got the thread a sticky and now watch me get it closed... LOL :help


----------



## Gatekeeper

Aaron,

I presume you are adding the dolomite for Ca and Mg because you are using RO water?? Can you see there being any problems with using straight tap water (non well)? I have pretty hard water, so on my auto water changer, I have it set up to do just about a 50/50 mix of tap and RO so I don't have to deal with dosing Ca or Mg.

I don't see why this still wouldn't work, but just wanted your take on that.

What do use for a source of calcium for your invertebrates? Does the Ca get into the water column at all or does it stay capped in the substrate? Do you add any additional sources of Ca, like cuttlebone for instance?


----------



## AaronT

gmccreedy said:


> Aaron,
> 
> I presume you are adding the dolomite for Ca and Mg because you are using RO water?? Can you see there being any problems with using straight tap water (non well)? I have pretty hard water, so on my auto water changer, I have it set up to do just about a 50/50 mix of tap and RO so I don't have to deal with dosing Ca or Mg.
> 
> I don't see why this still wouldn't work, but just wanted your take on that.
> 
> What do use for a source of calcium for your invertebrates? Does the Ca get into the water column at all or does it stay capped in the substrate? Do you add any additional sources of Ca, like cuttlebone for instance?


Glenn,

The dolomite is more just to add a little bit of calcium and magnesium to the substrate and also to help keep the substrate more alkaline. I use tap water in all of my tanks, though you could use RO water if you wished. My tap water is pretty hard out of the tap so I don't really worry about invertebrates, but you could always put crushed coral in the filter to add some calcium if your water is too soft.


----------



## Gatekeeper

I see, you are really just giving it an additional buffer as opposed to using it as a source of Ca and Mg for dosing purposes.

Where the heck can I find this 3M sand... I need to make some calls.


----------



## Hilde

I am wondering, can I speed up the process of mineralization of the soil by baking it in the microwave? Does it need to be shifted through a screen before adding water, in order to get rid of wood etc. in the dirt?


----------



## Gatekeeper

Won't a microwave kill all beneficial nutients off?


----------



## Riley

I don't think the microwave would be a good idea. Take your time with the soil and you will be pleased with the results.

I did not sift mine and I haven't ran into any problems.


----------



## AaronT

Hilde said:


> I am wondering, can I speed up the process of mineralization of the soil by baking it in the microwave? Does it need to be shifted through a screen before adding water, in order to get rid of wood etc. in the dirt?


No, microwaving the soil doesn't work. The mineralization is performed by various microbes in the soil that are active when exposed to oxygen and the soil is moist. Baking or microwaving the soil will only kill off those beneficial microbes. 

Patience is the key. You don't have to sift the soil if you don't want to. I've just found that it makes for less algae initially.


----------



## fishyface

Aaron, while i don't have access to dolomite around here, i was thinking of using the crushed coral under the soil. will this cause issues with elevated pH at all? also, i've got powdered all natural clay to use, should i just sprinkle it on the glass in approximately the same amounts as the potash (light dusting)?

thanks,
darryl


----------



## AaronT

fishyface said:


> Aaron, while i don't have access to dolomite around here, i was thinking of using the crushed coral under the soil. will this cause issues with elevated pH at all? also, i've got powdered all natural clay to use, should i just sprinkle it on the glass in approximately the same amounts as the potash (light dusting)?
> 
> thanks,
> darryl


Darryl,

The crushed coral shouldn't elevate pH noticeably. Go ahead and use it.

I would mix the clay in with the soil. Use enough such that it makes up about 5%-10% of the total soil volume. You want to mix it so it can bind nutrients in the soil and act as a flocculant.


----------



## fishyface

thanks again Aaron...


----------



## SCMurphy

Just a couple 'answers' I thought you guys were still looking for.

If you use crushed coral you can add a light sprinkle of Epsom salt to add some Mg to the underlayer. The dolomite is to keep the acidity of the soil from plunging, it should however, not add much to the water column through the cap material. The plants are going to pump more nutrients into the water column than the substrate will leak.

You really want to let the bacteria do what they do best and don't try to rush the mineralization processes. When the soil is almost a sand and you can get the soil wet and it doesn't smell, it is ready for use. If you have crypts or swords that are struggling when you start the tank, a small piece of root tab or jobes stick will get them over the hump. These plants do quite well when they get their roots established.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Sean,

So your saying there _is _a small leach into the water column? Would there be enough to say establish anubias or java fern?


----------



## lauraleellbp

Isn't part of the reason for dolomite also to provide a carbon source?


----------



## AaronT

lauraleellbp said:


> Isn't part of the reason for dolomite also to provide a carbon source?


Do you mean a calcium source? The carbon comes from fish waste and hopefully some sort of CO2 addition.


----------



## SCMurphy

gmccreedy said:


> Sean,
> 
> So your saying there _is _a small leach into the water column? Would there be enough to say establish anubias or java fern?


I grow nice anubius plants, they just grow a little slower than in a tank with a lot of water column fertilization. Probably getting more nutrients from the fish wastes than leaching. I can't control java ferns in my tanks.


----------



## lauraleellbp

AaronT said:


> Do you mean a calcium source? The carbon comes from fish waste and hopefully some sort of CO2 addition.


I probably need to go back and re-read that chapter again, but don't many plants break calcium carbonate down to use both the calcium and the carbon from the carbonate? Just not all plants are able to take advantage of carbon from carbonates? :confused1:


----------



## SCMurphy

There is more CO2 in the substrate from bacterial action then there will ever be from the breakdown of calcium carbonate in the dolomite.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I am working on my topsoil substrate now.. trying to figure out a rescape


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I got mine done! I think that I had my mixture too watery.. I drained out some of the standing water in my mix so that it was more like cake batter. I topped it off with some of the old substrate mixed with small pea gravel and the black sand blasting silica. looks nice. should I go through any plant nutrient withdraws? I shouldn't have to dose anything right?


----------



## AaronT

No, you shouldn't have to dose anything. If some plants struggle at first while their roots get established use small pieces of root tabs to get them started. Don't dose the water column though.


----------



## Chad

Would there be any problems with having 1 1/2-2" of mineralized topsoil and maybe another 1 1/2-2" of substrate on top of that? I was just concerned because of not dosing ferts?


----------



## lauraleellbp

The mineralized soil will have more ferts contained in it than most other substrates, so I don't quite follow why you would want to add a layer of something else?


----------



## AaronT

Chad said:


> Would there be any problems with having 1 1/2-2" of mineralized topsoil and maybe another 1 1/2-2" of substrate on top of that? I was just concerned because of not dosing ferts?


I don't quite follow exactly what your concern is? Are you asking if you can add more than the recommended amount of top soil to make sure there are enough nutrients? 

There are *plenty* of nutrients in mineralized topsoil to last for years. You're best off to keep the soil layer to 3/4" to 1" to avoid anaerobic pockets from forming.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I think what he is asking is can he put regular substrate over the top of the topsoil.

yes you can.. you should put your choice of substrate to cap it off.


----------



## mistergreen

yes, a capping substrate is needed to reduce the mess especially with bottom dwelling fish & slows down the ferts from releasing into the water column. Fine gravel or even baked clay soil is good. Some even use sand.


----------



## Chad

AaronT said:


> I don't quite follow exactly what your concern is? Are you asking if you can add more than the recommended amount of top soil to make sure there are enough nutrients?
> 
> There are *plenty* of nutrients in mineralized topsoil to last for years. You're best off to keep the soil layer to 3/4" to 1" to avoid anaerobic pockets from forming.


I guess I could have worded the question better, but thank you Aaron for answering it. I was planning on doing maybe 1"-1 1/2" of topsoil. 

What about the substrate on top? Does it matter how thick it is?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

nope.. just try to stick to the normal amount you would have if it were only the substrate. I usually have about 2-3" in the front up to 4+" in the back with a nice slope.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

so if I am going to experience a green water incident.. when am I likely to have it? I strained the soil multiple times to remove any foreign matter. I also used alot of my existing substrate.. only mixed new black sand in with it and a little brown small grain pea gravel. I haven't had any issues since sunday.. 

how long will it take before I see the plants perk up again since I am not dosing?


----------



## mistergreen

just don't blast the tank with light. You won't get green water.. 
It's most likely to happen in the beginning when the plants haven't adjusted yet and there will be excess nutrients in the water column.

1.5-2 wpg for 8 hours is good enough.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I have a 216w t5 catalina light on a 75 gallon.. that shouldn't be too much


----------



## AaronT

It will happen in the first few weeks if it's going to happen. It will take the plants a little while to adjust to the substrate. If you have lots of root feeders in the tank you can use root tabs to get them started. The initial phase takes a little patience and then it starts to take shape.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

should I lower my lighting for this initial period? I wouldn't think so. I am going to pick up some root tabs for a jumpstart. I can't wait for this thing to get going.

how often do I have to do water changes and what %?

I was dosing the EI method (which works great) and doing 50% water changes.


----------



## DataLifePlus

Hello everyone. I'm new to the forums, in fact I was brought here through the discussion of mineralized topsoil substrate. 

Problem is, I'm having a very difficult time locating some of the ingredients out here in the middle of the ocean, particularly the potash. The dolomite is also a bit of a problem. I've found one store that sells it, but in a 50lb. bag. 

I could order online, but most places want to charge me way too much to ship heavy items to Hawaii, if they will even ship it at all.

So, I was wondering if anyone would be willing to share some of their potash and dolomite with me. Obviously I'd be willing to make it worth their while.

Thanks and aloha,
James.

P.S. - I was also wondering how long I should wait before adding fish back to the tank. I have quite a few medium sized fish in the tank I want to add the topsoil to and nowhere to house the fish longterm.


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> should I lower my lighting for this initial period? I wouldn't think so. I am going to pick up some root tabs for a jumpstart. I can't wait for this thing to get going.
> 
> how often do I have to do water changes and what %?
> 
> I was dosing the EI method (which works great) and doing 50% water changes.


I would just cut back the photoperiod to 8 hours for a week or two.

I do water changes every 2-3 weeks, about 20% or so.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

sweet.. I already have them set to 8hrs!

wow.. 2-3 weeks at 20%

in the words of Eric Cartman "that's KICK ASS!"


----------



## DataLifePlus

Does anyone know how long I should wait before adding fish back to the tank?

I have quite a few medium sized fish in the 70-gallon tank I want to re-do with the topsoil and nowhere to house the fish longterm. I plan on using a large Igloo icechest with a filter and air stone as a temporary home.

Any advice or input is appreciated. 

Aloha, 
James.


----------



## fishyface

i don't know about anyone else but i waited a few days then just put em in...seemed to be not problems with me. never checked parameter's at all :icon_mrgr hope this helps...


----------



## lauraleellbp

DataLifePlus said:


> Does anyone know how long I should wait before adding fish back to the tank?
> 
> I have quite a few medium sized fish in the 70-gallon tank I want to re-do with the topsoil and nowhere to house the fish longterm. I plan on using a large Igloo icechest with a filter and air stone as a temporary home.
> 
> Any advice or input is appreciated.
> 
> Aloha,
> James.


I think as long as you save plenty of mulm in the breakdown to throw under the new substrate, and keep your filter(s) cycled, you should be OK. Might have a mini-cycle and need to do a few water changes, but chances are also pretty good that you won't need to re-cycle at all.

I'd get a big plastic bin from WalMart and throw everything in that, break down the tank, put in the soil, and then set everything back up the same day or the next day if at all possible- and I think you'll be fine.


----------



## DataLifePlus

fishyface said:


> i don't know about anyone else but i waited a few days then just put em in...seemed to be not problems with me. never checked parameter's at all :icon_mrgr hope this helps...





lauraleellbp said:


> I think as long as you save plenty of mulm in the breakdown to throw under the new substrate, and keep your filter(s) cycled, you should be OK. Might have a mini-cycle and need to do a few water changes, but chances are also pretty good that you won't need to re-cycle at all.
> 
> I'd get a big plastic bin from WalMart and throw everything in that, break down the tank, put in the soil, and then set everything back up the same day or the next day if at all possible- and I think you'll be fine.


Both helpful advice. Thanks. I will definitely be breaking down and resetting up the same day.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

It took me about 5hrs to do this.. from breaking down the tank... to getting it all back up and running.. allowing time for the tank to clear prior to planting. I put the fish into bags when I put them back into the tank to allow them to get back up the few degrees the water lost. and in they went. I put about 1/3 of the old tank water back in.

as lauralee said.. you might experience a slight mini cycle.. but nothing that you should really worry about!


----------



## DataLifePlus

Thanks for the info, Torpedobarb.

Another question, maybe it's already been answered, but... how much top soil would I need to do a 70-gallon (48" x 12")? I would imagine the rinsing and drying cycle would reduce the volume by quite a bit. I'm going shopping today, how much should I buy to comfortably fulfill my needs?


----------



## fishyface

i just did a 75g tank and started with about 60-70 lbs of soil which ended up being more like 30 lbs after all was said and done. i added 3 lbs of powdered red clay and had about 1-1.5" to cover the bottom of the tank...perfect amount.


----------



## DataLifePlus

fishyface said:


> i just did a 75g tank and started with about 60-70 lbs of soil which ended up being more like 30 lbs after all was said and done. i added 3 lbs of powdered red clay and had about 1-1.5" to cover the bottom of the tank...perfect amount.


Thanks for the info. Is 3lbs. of clay about what I should be adding? Another member is going to send me some clay and I think he said he 1lb. would be enough. I'm confused. :confused1:


----------



## fishyface

Aaron recommended between 5-10% clay to total volume of soil so mine is on the high side. i'm sure 1 lb will be fine but then again just don't forget, i'm not really the expert here :biggrin:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I started out with 2 40lb bags of top soil and ended up with only about 40lbs left.. if that.

it was enough to have about 3/4 to 1" deep.

make sure you strain the mineralized soil throughly. I took some screen.. like screen door screen and folded it over so it was doubled up and poured the soil through a large cup at a time.. work it through into a bucket and you will be surprised how much foreign material is left on top of the screen.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I did this on sunday afternoon. I have already noticed my p stellatus broadleaf and narrow leaf have perked up nicely. the leaves were curled over on the tips.. they are pointing straight up now. I am hooked!

I have dosed no ferts since saturday!


----------



## Riley

I will offer my suggestions now that my tank has been running for two months. 

The biggest thing I had to learn to do....SIT ON MY HANDS!!!

Watching some plants struggle in the start was interesting. I wanted to dose to get them to do better but I just waited. I did not add any fert tabs...just waited....topped plants and replanted them. 

I think the system has to go through a "cure" stage.....which is prolly the plants shooting roots down to the substrate. Pretty much everything I have stuck in the tank has grown....with exception of some Tonina sp. but my water is very hard. I have since changed half of it with RO water and and the plants have never been better. 

Ken-Our set up sounds about the same....mineralized topsoil and 216 T5 HOs. I would not worry to much about the green water. I had diatoms and green dust algae that is about it. I think this came from the sitting on your hands part. Just sit and wait and you will be very pleased with the results. 

I will prolly never set up another tank with the EI method unless I get very bored and need something to do everyday lol. 

Aaron I cant thank you enough for bringing this method to light.....lazy plant keepers unite!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I second that Aaron! It got to be too tedious dosing the tank everyday and 50% water changes weekly. I didn't like the science part of dosing.. I am not a chemist... so I did the EI method also. I do really like not having to dose the tank at all!


----------



## lizzardking

I'm finding it hard to find topsoil now that my local HD no longer carries any as it's off season. I have checked with a few of the local garden/lawn centers around me and the stuff they carry is the organic blend....full of sticks, bark, and manure. I've found loam and some backfill but i don't think thats any good for a tank.


----------



## DataLifePlus

lizzardking said:


> I'm finding it hard to find topsoil now that my local HD no longer carries any as it's off season. I have checked with a few of the local garden/lawn centers around me and the stuff they carry is the organic blend....full of sticks, bark, and manure. I've found loam and some backfill but i don't think thats any good for a tank.


I think you'll be hard pressed to find any topsoil without _some _organics such as sticks and bark, but the manure shouldn't be in there. 

I got my topsoil at Wal-Mart. They carried a locally packaged brand. I'm sure it's different from store to store, but it's worth a try. At my store it was way in the back of the garden center away from all the other bags of dirt.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I believe.. and anyone can correct me if I am wrong.. but if worst comes to worst.. just dig some up in your back yard.. strain it good and then go to it. and when it is mineralized.. strain it again. what is left will feel like sand. good luck in your find


----------



## lizzardking

thats what i was going to do as a last "ditch"


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I saw it offered up in a different thread.. possibly a different board


----------



## AaronT

Yup, digging some up in your yard should be fine too. Just make sure to use several rinse cycles if you're prone to fertilizing your yard. 

As Riley mentioned, patience is critical with this method. It does take the plants an initial 3-4 weeks to really get going as they need to establish strong root systems. Resist the urge to dose and you will be rewarded.


----------



## Micah Kyle

Instead of dolomite, think I could use egg shells?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

only issue I have as of now is the gsa on the glass.. I know that is a lack of phosphates.. so I am just cleaning it as it forms. will this go away with the topsoil substrate?


----------



## dylanserbin

is this soil in the final product the same as aqua soil (the kind you would get at home depot for ponds)


----------



## ingg

Torpedobarb said:


> only issue I have as of now is the gsa on the glass.. I know that is a lack of phosphates.. so I am just cleaning it as it forms. will this go away with the topsoil substrate?


Yes, it fades, but it does take a while to do it, tank needs to be really going strong.





No, this is not like shultz aquatic plant soil.... this is top soil sent through a conditiioning process, what you end up with is like a fine silt mud sort of thing in the end.


----------



## mistergreen

Just lower your lights to cut down on the gsa.

And I like to add schultz's into the top soil. It breaks up and thins out the soil (less chance of compacting and creating anaerobic spots.


----------



## Gatekeeper

mistergreen said:


> Just lower your lights to cut down on the gsa.


You mean cut down light duration right??


----------



## mistergreen

gmccreedy said:


> You mean cut down light duration right??


Either one, wattage wise or duration. You just have to mess with it specifially to your tank. I can't say one or the other.

I have a tank with a duration with only 8 hours and I still get a little gsa but not a lot.


----------



## DataLifePlus

Hey guys. I'm on my second drying phase and it's still pretty muddy. How many drying periods did you have to do until it was fine and grainy?

Also, I have a little bit of extra Flourite from an old tank. What do you guys think of adding it to the topsoil with the clay? Bad idea? I don't really want to put it on top since I already got a really nice black sand to cap it off, but I thought it couldn't hurt mixed in with the topsoil and clay.


----------



## ingg

3-4 cycles. It is still hard chunks, it will be sandy when you break up the clumps though. I had built a little screening box to push it all through, to sift out little chucnks of wood - it came out the other side feeling like powdery soft, almost ashes soft and light.

It's fine to mix Flourite in.


----------



## SCMurphy

Dave, post that pic of your tank.


----------



## DataLifePlus

ingg said:


> 3-4 cycles. It is still hard chunks, it will be sandy when you break up the clumps though. I had built a little screening box to push it all through, to sift out little chucnks of wood - it came out the other side feeling like powdery soft, almost ashes soft and light.
> 
> It's fine to mix Flourite in.


Awesome. Thanks again ingg.

Was that basically with a one day soak then one day dry?


----------



## mistergreen

I think I'll set one up for my sister. I have plenty of clay. I dug a pond and it was all clay a foot down. It's yellowish though but I'm not too worry about the substrate running out of iron.


----------



## lauraleellbp

Torpedobarb said:


> I purchased some of this clay.. let me know if this is the right stuff.. it isn't polymer based.. here is the link
> http://www.dickblick.com/zz332/31/


Hey BarbieKen did this turn out to be the right kind of clay? How much did you end up needing for your 75gal?

I'm actually _finally_ getting started with this this weekend...


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

lauraleellbp said:


> Hey BarbieKen did this turn out to be the right kind of clay? How much did you end up needing for your 75gal?
> 
> I'm actually _finally_ getting started with this this weekend...



it actually isn't the right stuff either. It has organic polymer. which is bad.
I got mine from AaronT.. only about a baseball size or smaller. I would check into a pottery store. tell them it can't have that.. get ahold of Aaron and ask him where he got his.

it is worth it to do this Laura. I haven't dosed anything in 2 weeks now and the growth is awesome. I just took some pics that I am going to post here as before pics.. and I will post some in a few more weeks with progress.


----------



## lauraleellbp

> I'll PM Aaron about the clay. I'd like to find it online, just to make my life easier...


Just thought I'd post Aaron's response to my clay question:



> Hey Laura,
> 
> I have no idea what brand it is. I bought it from a pottery store. It just comes in a large 15 lb. cube in a plastic bag. I recommend finding a good pottery store and getting the reddest clay they carry.
> 
> Take Care,
> Aaron


----------



## DataLifePlus

I was wondering about the clay as well. A member here (ingg) was kind enough to send me some clay, as well as dolomite and potash, and the clay he sent was gray in color.

I'm certainly no pottery expert and have little experience working with clay, but isn't the reddish-brown color in some clays caused by the iron in it? Will this gray clay work my this purpose? I'm sure it will be fine since I'm assuming this is the same clay ingg used in his own aquariums, which he said are doing well. Just thought I'd see what you guys thought.

By the way, thanks for the materials, ingg!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I actually haven't seen any clay for sale that doesn't have polymers in it.. the kind that I bought looked exactly like what bought from AaronT.

I believe that the reddish color is because of the iron.


Major ? about the clay. Can I go out and dig up some clay? we have tons of it around here.. TONS. since that is processed or anything and natural.. would that work?



Another ? If I were to start making up kits to do this.. do you think people would buy them? I would mineralize the soil.. bag up the amounts of clay, dolomite, and potash for different size tanks. what do you guys and gals think? not to make a huge profit.. just to see others do this and not have the hassle of dosing the tank. that can be intimidating.


----------



## DataLifePlus

Torpedobarb said:


> I actually haven't seen any clay for sale that doesn't have polymers in it.. the kind that I bought looked exactly like what bought from AaronT.
> 
> I believe that the reddish color is because of the iron.
> 
> 
> Major ? about the clay. Can I go out and dig up some clay? we have tons of it around here.. TONS. since that is processed or anything and natural.. would that work?


I would assume digging up clay would be fine. I'd probably soak it for a while to make sure it's not going to leach anything into the soil.



Torpedobarb said:


> Another ? If I were to start making up kits to do this.. do you think people would buy them? I would mineralize the soil.. bag up the amounts of clay, dolomite, and potash for different size tanks. what do you guys and gals think? not to make a huge profit.. just to see others do this and not have the hassle of dosing the tank. that can be intimidating.



Obviously it would all depend on the pricing, but I would be interested.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I will try to come up with a plan to do this. I will keep this updated!


----------



## mistergreen

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm not sure about the topsoil I got. Came from WalMart. Tons of sticks and leaves, looks like more organic content than dirt, even. Since I spent all of $3 on it, I might try to run up to Home Depot this weekend and see if I can find the one Aaron used.


if you soak the top soil in water, the twigs, bark, and other organics will float to the top. Just pour that out. Do that a few times and you're fine.




Torpedobarb said:


> Can I go out and dig up some clay? we have tons of it around here.. TONS. since that is processed or anything and natural.. would that work?


Where do you think pottery clay comes from 
the ground of course.
it's fine to dig it. Just not around industrial waste areas.

And somebody mentioned about gray clay... The gray comes from it not oxidizing. It's fine I think. That's the usual pottery clay.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

OK.. I need some help. what do you think would be a fair price to make kits for members? for example a 75 gallon?

I was thinking like 40.00. to save yourself the time and hassle of getting all the proper raw materials and mineralize the topsoil. 

any input would be greatly appreciated.

also updated pics on the first page


----------



## Scotty

I think that i might give this a try in a 10gal tank. I love the DIY stuff...


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

You would be doing yourself a favor! LOL


----------



## epicfish

It's a long thread, so I apologize if this has been answered.

Anyone using this and ADA AS and can comment/compare one to the other?

Thanks.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

epicfish said:


> It's a long thread, so I apologize if this has been answered.
> 
> Anyone using this and ADA AS and can comment/compare one to the other?
> 
> Thanks.


I'd be curious to know also. Plus, anyone try this as part of a low light, low tech, no c02 setup? All I keep hearing is pressurized c02, and high tech and I am trying to avoid that for my next setup.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Homer_Simpson said:


> I'd be curious to know also. Plus, anyone try this as part of a low light, low tech, no c02 setup? All I keep hearing is pressurized c02, and high tech and I am trying to avoid that for my next setup.


LauraLee is getting ready to do it with a low tech tank.. keep an eye out for updates through her


----------



## lauraleellbp

I'm cycling ADA AS Amazonia II in my 29gal now, and the mineralized soil will be going in my 46gal. Both are low tech tanks under Coralife T5NOs. I'm really curious myself how the 2 will stack up.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

lauraleellbp said:


> I'm cycling ADA AS Amazonia II in my 29gal now, and the mineralized soil will be going in my 46gal. Both are low tech tanks under Coralife T5NOs. I'm really curious myself how the 2 will stack up.


Cool, please keep us updated. I was considering setting up a ADA AS 10 gallon low tech and 5 gallon Mineralized top soil low tech, but I have no more room in my house to set up any more tanks. Bummer!


----------



## lilsuper2335

Torpedobarb said:


> I am starting to do my top soil substrate. I am following this thread
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html
> by AaronT
> 
> I have my 2 bags of plain old top soil with no ferts added. I put one bag in a large tupperware container and put water in with it mixing it up and breaking up all of the large clumps. the water level is a few inches over the top of it. I will keep this updated as I go along.
> 
> this is going to be fun!
> 
> *Here are some pics.. I am going to do a before and after shots.. now these first before pics are after 2 weeks of the topsoil. some of the plants were just planted yesterday.. so I will point those out.*
> 
> E Tennelus Micro.. Planted 11/14.. we will see the progress as it fills in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ludwigia Sp. Pantanal planted 11/14.. Front shot.
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> Top Shot towards the middle.. also verticillata on the right. 11/01
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> Ludwigia Sp. Cuba top shot. planted 11/14 towards the right is Limno A. planted 11/10, bottom center is sao paulo planted 11/01
> Check out that Blyxa Aubertii! sweet.. nice and red!
> 
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> 
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> 
> Front shot of the Cuba to see how it grows vertical.
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> Top of Stellatus Broadleaf 11/01
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> Narrow leaf Stellatus 11/01


i really like your setup but do you have a updated full tank pic...would like to see it...thanks


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## lauraleellbp

Check out his journal over in the Photo Journal forum. :thumbsup:


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## TheCryptKeeper

lilsuper2335 said:


> i really like your setup but do you have a updated full tank pic...would like to see it...thanks


I will take one this evening and post it here.. the one that is up isn't recent since I just planted. 

Ken


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## lauraleellbp

*Timberline topsoil?*

OK so the only topsoil brand I've been able to locate is Timberline. Both Lowes and WalMart carry this same brand and no other (unless it says on the bag it's manure-based...) I've been trying unsuccessfully to find a reliable source for what's in it, and so far this is the only source I've found (which I'm not sure is reliable): 

http://www.gardenrant.com/my_weblog/2007/09/sure-its-organi.html

According to this source (and the bag pictured looks nothing like mine) the contents are:

Dirt
Compost that's 4 parts wood fines to 1 part manure
Composted leaves
Lime
And now I'm worried...


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## TheCryptKeeper

check out the Pantanal picture on page 1.. updated


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## TheCryptKeeper

Ludwigia Sp. Pantanal planted 11/14.. Front shot.








Top Shot towards the middle.. also verticillata on the right. 11/01
















CHECK OUT THE PINK ALREADY COMING OUT IN ONE DAY... AGAIN.. ONE DAY. This plant is Extremely HARD to grow! Sweet!

the before pic was taken yesterday.


----------



## Hoppy

Where do the plants get their phosphate from with mineralized soil substrate? You add potassium and calcium/magnesium, but not phosphate. Do you rely on the fish to provide the tiny amounts needed?


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## TheCryptKeeper

Hoppy said:


> Where do the plants get their phosphate from with mineralized soil substrate? You add potassium and calcium/magnesium, but not phosphate. Do you rely on the fish to provide the tiny amounts needed?


as for that I don't really know :hihi: 

I used to dose the EI method.. which works.. but I did it because I don't know the chemistry of dosing. from what I understand after about a year.. you will have to dose a small trace of it from time to time.. but that is it.

sorry I couldn't answer your ?


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## mistergreen

Hoppy said:


> Where do the plants get their phosphate from with mineralized soil substrate? You add potassium and calcium/magnesium, but not phosphate. Do you rely on the fish to provide the tiny amounts needed?


All the nutrients will come the soil and fish waste.
When organic compounds & inorganic compounds break down, it'll release NPK and trace and maybe even carbon sources available for plants.

There's a whole forum for soil based aquariums at APC...
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/26458-what-el-natural-step-step.html

and there's a book out there.
http://www.amazon.com/Ecology-Plant...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226968675&sr=1-1


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## Hoppy

El Natural aquariums have to be low light setups, or there aren't enough nutrients available for the plants, especially carbon. I understood that this mineralized soil substrate was good for a range of light intensities. That is what is confusing me.


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## ingg

NPT doesn't use mineralized soil, it is raw. Much different nutrient make up. I know, it confuses me, too - but I know it works.


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## mistergreen

Hoppy said:


> El Natural aquariums have to be low light setups, or there aren't enough nutrients available for the plants, especially carbon. I understood that this mineralized soil substrate was good for a range of light intensities. That is what is confusing me.


it's not all that different.. Mineralized top soil is just a modified NPT. The genius in it is that it removes some if not most of the organic that'll decompose to NH3/4 which will trigger algae in high light.. You can have high light in a NPT btw.. I use sunlight for about 3-4 hours for my NPT, how much higher light can you get?

My guess is with this mineralized soil setup with high lights and fairly fast growth, the nutrients will run out much faster than an NPT. An NPT will last for years.

ps. I wouldn't suggest 3wpg in these tanks, 2wp max which is about the range of NPT.


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## Homer_Simpson

mistergreen said:


> it's not all that different.. Mineralized top soil is just a modified NPT. The genius in it is that it removes some if not most of the organic that'll decompose to NH3/4 which will trigger algae in high light.. You can have high light in a NPT btw.. I use sunlight for about 3-4 hours for my NPT, how much higher light can you get?
> 
> My guess is with this mineralized soil setup with high lights and fairly fast growth, the nutrients will run out much faster than an NPT. An NPT will last for years.
> 
> ps. I wouldn't suggest 3wpg in these tanks, 2wp max which is about the range of NPT.


The success of both methods IMHO really depends on using the right type of topsoil. I miserably failed with the Natural Planted Tank Method and through trial and error, I believe that it was due to the topsoil I used. My guess is that it was too full of organics. With the Mineralized Soil Method, soaking/rinsing the soil combined with the sifting and screening of the soil removes a lot of organics in an otherwise topsoil with too many organics, which means chances of success will likely be higher with the Mineralized Topsoil Method than the NPT method. 

As far a lighting goes, Aaron has posted that his Mineralized Tosoil Method run with 3 watts per gallon and pressurized c02, which really makes you wonder how much the light and c02 contribute to the success of this method. He has only dosed minscule amounts of potassium and his plants are going strong for years. There is no reference to any nutrition depletion other than potassium. This is why I am curious to see how well plants do in a Mineralized Soil tank with 1.5-2 watts light and no c02. Such a low light tank controls for effect of lighting and c02. Nutrient uptake should be slower, but will plants perform any better than any other substrate since lighting levels are lower and there is no c02.


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## SCMurphy

The soil takes a very long time to run out. I set up the original test tanks 15 years ago and they are still going strong.


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## lauraleellbp

Sean, have you posted updated pics of your tanks anywhere? I'd really love to see them.


----------



## ingg

I run a couple at borderline high light and they do just fine. So do AaronT's.

At least, I think 4x54 T5's are rather high light over a 75g.  As are 2x39 with a 4x39 noonburst session over a 50g.... and my 180g only runs 8x39 over it, but runs like it has the same light level as the 75g in terms of growth...

I know I don't crank 5 wpg or anything, but these are all good fixtures (TEK's or individual bulb reflector Catalinas) and the tanks run great.

I know a lot of it is sort of speculative debate, but I really wish folks would set one up and run it for a couple of months before suggesting in an open forum what is can or cannot do, or what it is or is not supposed ot have done to it. 

I personally cannot thank Sean and Aaron enough for showing it to me, and helping me set it up and try it out. I find it far simpler than any dosed tank I ever tried, with better results (I am very admittedly horrible about doing regular dosing), and more predictable behaviors. So yeah, I'm a fanboi of it, but I think I've good reason to be - it works for me!


----------



## Hoppy

Ingg, you should be a fan of this method, given how well it worked for you. From reading your journal about the 180 gallon tank I think it is pretty certain that mineralized top soil will work fine for high light, pressurized CO2 tanks, as well as for low light non CO2 tanks. That wasn't clear to me before reading your journal.

I like to understand why things work, not just understand that they do work. That is the only reason for my questions. Today I went to my river silt bank along the river behind my condo and dug some soil to try this. It will be for a 10 gallon tank, with Excel for a carbon source. I feel pretty confident that it will work fine. Incidentally, given the tiny amounts of potash and dolomite needed I'm planning to buy mine at the health foods store near me. I know I have to study the labels to be sure those aren't "contaminated" with other stuff, but my internet search says many of them aren't. And, the river silt is already heavy with clay, so I won't need to add that.

Having a substrate that will work for both high light/pressurized CO2 and low light non CO2 will be a huge advantage for me, so if/when this works for me I will switch my 45 gallon tank to this.


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## TheCryptKeeper

SCMurphy said:


> The soil takes a very long time to run out. I set up the original test tanks 15 years ago and they are still going strong.



Hell yes.. that is what I am talkin about! :hihi:


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## Homer_Simpson

For anyone who has tried this and succeeded, could you please post the brand of soil/topsoil that you used. I would order the premade kit from Torpedobarb, but being in Canada, the shipping cost would kill me and cutoms may not let the package through. That means, I have to do this by myself. I was lucky enough to find a local supplier or non-polymer infused clay, ranging from low iron content to the highest. I thought of using laterite, but the pottery clay is a fraction of the cost of the laterite clay. Like Hoppy, I may hit the local health food store for the Dolomite. I already have the Potash of Murate and got it dirt cheap at Home Depot it was 50% off and on clearance. That leaves only the Top Soil. I am hesitant to use the topsoil that I used before as it proved disasterous when I used it to set up a Natural Planted Tank. I ended up with endless fish and shrimp deaths and had to finally tear the tank down. The brand is Green Leaf from Home Depot. It was dirt cheap but ingredients are not listed, which makes me wonder if it is not full of sh*t(cow or otherwise). I just don't want to waste time setting up another tank with this toposoil only to have the same thing happen. The stuff does grow terrestrial plants great, so it wasn't a total waste of money.


----------



## ingg

> I like to understand why things work, not just understand that they do work. That is the only reason for my questions.


Sean tried to explain it to me, it went over my head. I proceeded to shaddap and follow the instructions, honestly.  Bio was never my strong point!

From what I understand of it (errors are mine, basics I learned a credit to Sean):

The wet and dry cycle serves two functions. One, it is rinsing out and imposed fertilizers and large organic pieces. Two, it is sending the soil through cycles of aerobic and anaerobic bacterial periods. These cycles are eating the proteins, and leave beinhd the minerals. The minerals get locked into the soil somehow (Toldja, it was over my head) and are there for use by root systems, but not easily leeched into the water column.

It will feel like fine sand.... dust. Doesn't smell like soil anymore.

Additives do the following: One, replenenish iron and clay contents form the clay. This is both for a mineral benefit, as well as a practical one - it makes the soil a bit more lumpy, a bit better about settling down when disturbed. Two, dolomite adds some hardness, so that it isn't an incredibly acidic base. Three, potash gives an initial source of potassium to let the tank get established. Potash is the one that'll run out, eventually you start dosing traces of potassium.



> For anyone who has tried this and succeeded, could you please post the brand of soil/topsoil that you used.


Cheapest brand at Home Depot, white bag with red and black label. Don't remember brand name though.  You want the cheap stuff - nothing that has fertilizers mixed in, but also not the soil additive stuff that is actually a bunch of wood chips.


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## Homer_Simpson

ingg said:


> ....*Cheapest brand at Home Depot*, white bag with red and black label. Don't remember brand name though.  You want the cheap stuff - nothing that has fertilizers mixed in, but also not the soil additive stuff that is actually a bunch of wood chips.


Lol, the Green Leaf brand topsoil was the only one available at my Home Depot store. There was no other brand of topsol and none with the red and black label(stupid Canadian Home Depot!). It does not list the ingredients on it so I am not sure what it has. FWIW, the soil has round soft ball like clumps(they are hard to the touch but when you squeeze them they break easily) in it. I am assuming this is loam and not sh*t, but I have no way to be sure. Doesn't smell like sh*t, but then I don't imagine it would. It just smells soil like. It would be a waste to try it only to have it self destruct due to the topsoil.


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## lauraleellbp

I haven't been able to find the right brand either... the water turned murky brown on the first rinse cycle, which I'm thinking is not good... I'm just hoping I can rinse it enough to get it clean and thoroughly mineralized.

There's a lot of sticks and mulch mixed in, though.  I definitely wouldn't recommend Timberline brand for the next person that comes along.


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## AaronT

The water will be muddy when the soil is soaking. It won't begin to be clear and settled for 2-3 wet / dry cycles. Also, adding the clay later on is what helps to settle to soil out.


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## lauraleellbp

I'm worried there's manure in it. :confused1: If so, I guess I'll have another bout with GW to wait out down the road! LOL


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## TheCryptKeeper

I would go into a garden center and ask for plain top soil with no fertilizers added.. not potting soil.. top soil. it will be really black in color before mineralized. there will be plenty of debris in it.. wood chips.. rocks etc. when adding the water.. make sure you stir it up good, that will get all of the wood chips to float up. the day you go to drain the water off of the top.. take a large aquarium net and skim the top.. you will be amazed how much wood chips and other crap that floats you will get. remove that stuff each time.. it will make it easier later when you sift the soil when it is mineralized. you don't have to sift it.. but I recommend it as per Aaron. it will cut the chance of having an algae bloom. I think also what helps cut back on the algae bloom is doing this in an already existing tank. I used a large portion of my existing substrate and the filters were already seasoned for 10 months. sorry for rambling


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## AaronT

It's frustrating to find topsoil that actually is topsoil. So many of those products are actually soilless mixes intended to be mixed with dirt from your yard. The trick is, you want the dirt part of the equation. If you have a yard grab a shovel.


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## lauraleellbp

AaronT said:


> It's frustrating to find topsoil that actually is topsoil. So many of those products are actually soilless mixes intended to be mixed with dirt from your yard. The trick is, you want the dirt part of the equation. If you have a yard grab a shovel.


I seriously considered that option. But all I'd end up with would be limerock sand, which I don't think will fit the bill. How can you be sure from area to area that the chemical composition of the soil will be what's needed?

I could try the muck left behind now that the swamp that is my backyard is drying out... but that would just be organics mixed with limerock sand LOL

Ken, I think I'm going to take you up on your offer :thumbsup: (though I'm still going to continue with what I've also got started since I laid it out for the first dry already...)

OK I'm done thinking out loud- back to our regularly scheduled thread...


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## Homer_Simpson

AaronT said:


> It's frustrating to find topsoil that actually is topsoil. So many of those products are actually soilless mixes intended to be mixed with dirt from your yard. The trick is, you want the dirt part of the equation. If you have a yard grab a shovel.


I am in the same boat as lauraleellbp. If I dig some up around my sister's countryside home, it will mostly be limerock sand. 

Aaron or Sean, would soaking the soil longer and doing the rinse and dry and sifting cycles make an otherwise less than ideal topsoil viable for this or do you guys recommend 4 cycles as the max? I really see no other option since I am unable to find a good topsoil. I am really curious to try this mineralized substrate idea and even prepared to squeeze more space in my otherwise aquarium full home for another 10 gallon test tank.


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## SCMurphy

Do the wet/dry cycles until the soil can get wet and not stink like something is rotting. When you can get it wet and it smells 'clean' it is ready. There is no magic number of times to do the wet/dry step, you just keep doing it until it is ready. This should work on the Canadian Home Depot soil. You will probably get a very intense but short lived green water episode while the bacteria in the tank establish themselves. You can shorten this by using a filter from an established tank, or adding water from another tank, or just not worry about it. The side benefit is that green water is good for keeping other algae at bay while the plants settle in. 

The tanks that are 15 years old I sold with the substrate intact to a fellow GWAPA member. I've seen one of them at his house, the other two are at his in-law's and a friend of his. He says all are doing well. This friend also has a 125 that he set up to be a low tech no CO2 tank with this substrate, I keep telling him to take a picture, it is as good as Dave's tank.

My current tanks I set up about 5 years ago. I'll see what I can do about pictures.

I like my substrate mix enough that I told Amano at the AGA Convention that I was happy with my soil mix when he suggested PowerSand and AquaSoil for growing crypts in the aquarium. However, I also told him that I do have AquaSoil in my ADA tank. roud:


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## TheCryptKeeper

Does anyone have pics of a low light non co2 mineralized topsoil substrate tank?


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## SCMurphy

Torpedobarb said:


> Does anyone have pics of a low light non co2 mineralized topsoil substrate tank?


Sure.
Small 2.2 gallons








Large 125 gallons


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## Homer_Simpson

Nice tanks. 

I phoned several greenhouses to see if they carry a manure free topsoil. They all pretty much told me the same thing: Good luck finding a manure free topsoil!! According to them, most topsoils are a four ingredient mixture of: sand, loam, peatmoss, and manure. They stated that manure is the main ingredient in just about all the topsoils out there. So, many of you may be using a topsoil with manure and may not even know it. That leads to an interesting question. If people have been successfully setting up tanks with the mineralized substrate and have been using topsoil with manure, then the manure may not be that detrimental. Perhaps, the dry and wet cycles are enough to remove the harsh effects of the manure. Just a thought. I know Diana Walstad in the Natural Planted Tank section at the APC forum talks about having success setting up a 5 gallon natural planted tank using Miracle Grown Organic choice soil. One of the ingredients in that soil is manure. Any comments/thoughts??


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## Hoppy

The worst that the manure could do, it seems to me, is make it take longer to mineralize it. It is the ammonia and other organics in the manure that would be a problem if not mineralized.


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## Homer_Simpson

Hoppy said:


> The worst that the manure could do, it seems to me, is make it take longer to mineralize it. It is the ammonia and other organics in the manure that would be a problem if not mineralized.


That is what I was thinking. I think that I will double or even triple up on the wet and dry cycles to avoid issues. 12 cycles instead of 4, followed by sifting through a fine mesh strainer.


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## TheCryptKeeper

SCMurphy said:


> Sure.
> Small 2.2 gallons
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Large 125 gallons


nice... my father in law has a 55 gallon and for some reason he is having trouble with his plants.. crypts, anubias, tiger lotus etc.. his tank has been up and running for about 20 years. I will try to convince him to switch it over..

he has a coralife 54w t5 on the tank now.. would he need to go higher on the lighting for the topsoil setup?

Thanks for the pics Sean!


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## lauraleellbp

The tanks are beautiful, Sean, thanks for the pics! :icon_smil Very encouraging!


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## TheCryptKeeper

Homer_Simpson said:


> Nice tanks.
> 
> I phoned several greenhouses to see if they carry a manure free topsoil. They all pretty much told me the same thing: Good luck finding a manure free topsoil!! According to them, most topsoils are a four ingredient mixture of: sand, loam, peatmoss, and manure. They stated that manure is the main ingredient in just about all the topsoils out there. So, many of you may be using a topsoil with manure and may not even know it. That leads to an interesting question. If people have been successfully setting up tanks with the mineralized substrate and have been using topsoil with manure, then the manure may not be that detrimental. Perhaps, the dry and wet cycles are enough to remove the harsh effects of the manure. Just a thought. I know Diana Walstad in the Natural Planted Tank section at the APC forum talks about having success setting up a 5 gallon natural planted tank using Miracle Grown Organic choice soil. One of the ingredients in that soil is manure. Any comments/thoughts??


when you mineralize the soil.. all that will be left is the soil.. it will be like gray sand.. so I wouldn't worry about that.

manure is usually cow manure or horse manure.. they eat grass alot.. gross but have you ever seen cow or horse dropping up close.. really grassy or alot of straw. if there are any of that in the soil it would start to float during the water process. Make sure that when you fill the container you stir the soil up extremely well.. it will make anything other than rocks and soil float. take a larger aquarium net and skim the top.. it will get that crap out. each time you do the water step do this.

also when your last drying step is done.. sift the soil through a screen to only let the soil through.. since it will be small grain like sand.. it will fall through and everything else will be caught.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I find the patience is the key with this setup. 
Soak>drain>soak>drain, several times for a few days.
Then soak>dry>sift>soak>dry>sift for several days.
Lastly sift through a screen one handful at a time until you get a coco powder type dust.
Then your ready


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## Homer_Simpson

Torpedobarb and Orlando, many thanks for the excellent suggestions. I have a choice between either using Poolfilter sand or Soil Master Select as a cap. Anyone care to share experiences with using either one of these as a capping material for the mineralized soil in a 10 gallon tank. I figured the Soil Master Select would pose a problem at some point if I decided to keep bottom dwellers like peppered cory catfish as the substrate is lightweight and would get easily stirred up.


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

I prefer to cap with something heavier. SeaChem Fluorite Black works very well.


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## Homer_Simpson

Orlando said:


> I prefer to cap with something heavier. SeaChem Fluorite Black works very well.


Cool, thanks!


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## Green Leaf Aquariums

You bet Homey


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## Hoppy

The advantage of SMS as a capping material is its high CEC, which adds that benefit to the substrate. I use a SMS capped river silt substrate in my 45 gallon tank, with very good results, by my standards. Once the SMS is thoroughly water soaked it doesn't get stirred up much more than any other substrate when fish dig around in it.


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## JDowns

I used ZeoSand in my 29g no CO2 tank. I followed a slightly different approach then the method here. But the same principle with the same results. Its somewhat a pain to rinse, not much more so than SMS/Turface.


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## JDowns

Torpedobarb said:


> Does anyone have pics of a low light non co2 mineralized topsoil substrate tank?


29g
36w PC - 8hrs

Jam as many sp. as I can to see how they fare. Been up and running for almost four months now.

Growth rate = very slow, but very nice since that is the goal for this tank.


----------



## DataLifePlus

JDowns said:


> 29g
> 36w PC - 8hrs
> 
> Jam as many sp. as I can to see how they fare. Been up and running for almost four months now.
> 
> Growth rate = very slow, but very nice since that is the goal for this tank.


That's a great looking tank at such low light.


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## TheCryptKeeper

Thanks to Sean and JDowns.. I convinced my father in law to go topsoil.. he was really impressed with the results. his plants as of now are struggling. He is a go! Sweet


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## SCMurphy

I've read so many discussions about this substrate on so many forums that they are starting to run together. Someplace, someone asked about the problems of an extra deep substrate over the soil layer. They were worried about the anoxic* layer producing an anaerobic pocket before plant roots could get to the soil. I will answer here and let it disseminate. 

I accidentally answered this question for myself a while back. I set up a 10 gallon tank with the soil substrate and after filling it, never got around to planting anything for a year. I was using the tank to hold fish but just didn't bother to plant it. (Long personal story that is not relevant to the discussion)

When you submerge soil it takes between 24 and 48 hours for it to be completely anoxic. If any substrate was anoxic it was this one. Anyhow, I realized I had an opportunity to test an anoxic substrate so I put in a sag subulata, a crypt spiralis, and left them alone. The plants took over the aquarium in about a month.

By mineralizing the soil you are eliminating a lot of the organics that anaerobic bacteria feed on to make Hydrogen Sulfide, the toxic substance that can kill off plant roots. So, even if you make the cap layer thick, you don't have to worry about the soil becoming an toxic mess before the plant roots get there.

* "Anoxic" is when there is no oxygen. "Anaerobic" are the processes that occur in anoxic conditions, or a critter that can live in said conditions.


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## iek

I gather the soil of molehills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molehill), formed under trees 
All my tanks are with this kind of soil, some of them are without CO2, you can see these tanks here: http://iekoko.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=8 .


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## TheCryptKeeper

iek said:


> I gather the soil of molehills (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molehill), formed under trees
> All my tanks are with this kind of soil, some of them are without CO2, you can see these tanks here: http://iekoko.blogspot.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00%3A00%3A00-08%3A00&max-results=8 .


Welcome to the forum 

those are some great looking tanks roud:


----------



## milesm

SCMurphy said:


> I've read so many discussions about this substrate on so many forums that they are starting to run together. Someplace, someone asked about the problems of an extra deep substrate over the soil layer. They were worried about the anoxic* layer producing an anaerobic pocket before plant roots could get to the soil. I will answer here and let it disseminate.
> 
> I accidentally answered this question for myself a while back. I set up a 10 gallon tank with the soil substrate and after filling it, never got around to planting anything for a year. I was using the tank to hold fish but just didn't bother to plant it. (Long personal story that is not relevant to the discussion)
> 
> When you submerge soil it takes between 24 and 48 hours for it to be completely anoxic. If any substrate was anoxic it was this one. Anyhow, I realized I had an opportunity to test an anoxic substrate so I put in a sag subulata, a crypt spiralis, and left them alone. The plants took over the aquarium in about a month.
> 
> By mineralizing the soil you are eliminating a lot of the organics that anaerobic bacteria feed on to make Hydrogen Sulfide, the toxic substance that can kill off plant roots. So, even if you make the cap layer thick, you don't have to worry about the soil becoming an toxic mess before the plant roots get there.
> 
> * "Anoxic" is when there is no oxygen. "Anaerobic" are the processes that occur in anoxic conditions, or a critter that can live in said conditions.


do what tbarr suggested: mix the soil with 2 - 3 inches of the inert substrate, then cap with another 1 - 2 inches; soil will be available to the plants much quicker. i ran a low tech, non carbon 2.5 gal tank using this method and the plants (hygro, crypts) did well.


----------



## Gatekeeper

milesm said:


> do what tbarr suggested: mix the soil with 2 - 3 inches of the inert substrate, then cap with another 1 - 2 inches; soil will be available to the plants much quicker. i ran a low tech, non carbon 2.5 gal tank using this method and the plants (hygro, crypts) did well.


LMAO... you do realize the Sean is the one who really came up with this idea right?


----------



## milesm

gmccreedy said:


> LMAO... you do realize the Sean is the one who really came up with this idea right?


obviously not.  sorry for not getting the citation correctly. regardless of who came up with the idea the first, it works. :thumbsup:


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## octavio

*Need help setting up 210*

I'm in the process of setting up my 210 with mineralized soil. The mineralizing process is already done, but I'm having trouble finding the muriate of potash and dolomite, that Aaron T was talking about. All I found was sulphate of potash 0-0-50 and dolomite that says it's lime. Will these work? If not can someone tell me where to find what I need to make this happen. I want to do this once, the correct way.
Thanks, Octavio


----------



## Hoppy

"Muriate of potash" is potassium chloride, which you can buy as a salt substitute in the grocery store. Just be sure to read the list of ingredients, because some brands have other ingredients to add more taste to it. I found one that is just potassium chloride. For the dolomite, which I understand is there to maintain a pH above 7 in the bottom of the substrate, you can use calcium carbonate. One really cheap form of calcium carbonate, which comes in very small quantities for about one dollar, is cuttlebones, sold for birds. You can scrape off the carbonate from the white side, trying to keep the tan side "film", a protein film, out of the tank. It took about half of one of the smallest sizes for my 10 gallon tank.


----------



## mistergreen

limestone, seashell/oyster shell are forms of calcium carbonate as well.


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## mistergreen

Just did some reading on D. Walstad's book. Pretty interesting scientific book.

Some of you have questions on this mineralized method vs. Walstad's method. From what I gathered there is no difference. This method is just a continuation of the soil method. Plants do really well with organics in the substrate like humus with 5-20%. High organic content tend to cause havoc to the system though... The 'mineralizing' aspect to this method seems to stabilize the soil.

Fresh top soil when submerged goes through a period of turmoil, PH drop through bacteria decomposition, heavy metal release and fermentation if there are anaerobic situations. But everything settles down within 8 weeks and there is a balance. 'Mineralizing' helps in this process by thinning out heavy organics and oxidizing the problem chemicals.

Don't forget to add dolomite or limestone to keep the soil from going acidic.. The acids would release heavy metals out of the soil in quantities that would kill plants and animals.


----------



## AaronT

mistergreen said:


> Just did some reading on D. Walstad's book. Pretty interesting scientific book.
> 
> Some of you have questions on this mineralized method vs. Walstad's method. From what I gathered there is no difference. This method is just a continuation of the soil method. Plants do really well with organics in the substrate like humus with 5-20%. High organic content tend to cause havoc to the system though... The 'mineralizing' aspect to this method seems to stabilize the soil.
> 
> Fresh top soil when submerged goes through a period of turmoil, PH drop through bacteria decomposition, heavy metal release and fermentation if there are anaerobic situations. But everything settles down within 8 weeks and there is a balance. 'Mineralizing' helps in this process by thinning out heavy organics and oxidizing the problem chemicals.
> 
> Don't forget to add dolomite or limestone to keep the soil from going acidic.. The acids would release heavy metals out of the soil in quantities that would kill plants and animals.


One big difference between the two methods is the addition of the clay material. The clay provides a few significant functions that in my opinion make it a better method. It provides an iron source. The clay binds with the soil and helps to bind nutrients in the soil making them available for the plant's roots. And lastly it binds with the soil and acts as a flocculant. When plants are uprooted the soil will settle out of the water column faster.


----------



## mistergreen

yeah, D. Walstad wouldn't object to using clay. She talked about it in the book. I think clay is often left out in the el natural method because it might be unnecessary. There's plenty of iron in the soil sans clay. And the soil itself does the job of making the nutrients available for plant roots.

What clay does is it does bind the soil well (flocculant) and it provides more surface area for bacteria to grow on compared to sand. Bacteria will create biofilm that binds the soil as well. You do have to worry about too much heavy metals (aluminum, iron, manganese etc..) in clay though.


----------



## michu

I'm thinking of doing mineralized soil in my tank. I have yet to go hunt, but if I can't find pure top soil, would it be better to use another type of bagged soil or dig up silt from a river basin? I live fairly close to the 3rd cleanest lake in the country and was thinking that the river that feeds it or comes out of it might be a good choice to grab sand. The TVA lowers the rivers in this area every year during the wintertime to prevent flooding in TN (so much that many lakes are drained) enabling me to grab all the silt I want. But... would this material possibly be unhealthy for my plants or aquariums since the content would be fairly much unknown?

Another question. We have areas that are full of clay and areas that are mostly sand. The touted to be "clean" areas are where the sand is of course. Should I grab the clay soil, the clean soil, both and mix (providing that you guys think I should go the dig in the soil route over some other bagged soil.)


----------



## Homer_Simpson

michu said:


> But... would this material possibly be unhealthy for my plants or aquariums since the* content would be fairly much unknown*?..


Well someone could probably give you a better answer. Personally, I would not risk it as I would be too scared to introduce unwanted wild pathogens or parasites that could possibly kill my fish. You could always sterilize the sediment or use at your own risk. Try using it with one cheap fish like zebra danio or whitecloud minnow to see what happens. If they don't die a mysterious death, then you should be safe adding more fish. Also, if you are using a UV sterilizer, it could reduce the parasitic risk to your fish if you decide to use such sediment.


----------



## AaronT

michu said:


> I'm thinking of doing mineralized soil in my tank. I have yet to go hunt, but if I can't find pure top soil, would it be better to use another type of bagged soil or dig up silt from a river basin? I live fairly close to the 3rd cleanest lake in the country and was thinking that the river that feeds it or comes out of it might be a good choice to grab sand. The TVA lowers the rivers in this area every year during the wintertime to prevent flooding in TN (so much that many lakes are drained) enabling me to grab all the silt I want. But... would this material possibly be unhealthy for my plants or aquariums since the content would be fairly much unknown?
> 
> Another question. We have areas that are full of clay and areas that are mostly sand. The touted to be "clean" areas are where the sand is of course. Should I grab the clay soil, the clean soil, both and mix (providing that you guys think I should go the dig in the soil route over some other bagged soil.)



I would try the soil with less clay in it. Too much clay can be problematic.


----------



## michu

Homer Simpson,

Thanks for the info. Stupid me didn't think about parasites. :/


----------



## michu

AaronT said:


> I would try the soil with less clay in it. Too much clay can be problematic.


So if I get the "clean" soil and can get it free of parasites, don't add any clay and just go with it as is plus dolomite and potash?


----------



## AaronT

michu said:


> So if I get the "clean" soil and can get it free of parasites, don't add any clay and just go with it as is plus dolomite and potash?


Well, it depends really. You do want some clay. You want the silt to be made up of about 5%-10% clay and the rest dirt.


----------



## michu

How on earth would I tell what percentage is clay? I guess if it's a bit sticky or clumpy?


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## AaronT

michu said:


> How on earth would I tell what percentage is clay? I guess if it's a bit sticky or clumpy?


You can't really. That's why it's better to find quality topsoil to use and add in as much as you need.


----------



## michu

OK, thanks so much. Maybe I'll get lucky and find some.


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## TheCryptKeeper

New Pics on page 1


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## Hoppy

Torpedobarb said:


> New Pics on page 1


Wow! That is spectacular!


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## michu

Torpedobarb said:


> New Pics on page 1


The tank looks lovely. :thumbsup:


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## TheCryptKeeper

they don't grow as fast which is actually a good thing. but they look amazing. there are some plants still struggling on the lower leaves.. but that will get better with time.

I have still not dosed a single thing into the tank. love it!


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## mistergreen

nice tank.


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## Hoppy

One fact discovered today when I tore down my 45 gallon tank, which had SMS over river silt (which is a clay rich mineralized soil), is that removing that type of substrate is a much harder job than removing all SMS, for example. I was able to scoop the SMS off the top of the substrate easily, but it was like there was a sandstone layer under it. The silt was very compacted, and hard to break up to remove it. I kept sniffing for an anaerobic bacteria problem, but didn't smell anything bad. And, this layer did have a lot of roots in it.

This substrate combination worked extremely well for me for about 2 years, as I remember. So, I have no complaints about it, but it sure was a problem to remove. I suspect mineralized topsoil substrates will act the same way, so be prepared to spend longer than usual if you ever decide to replace it.


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## TheCryptKeeper

I agree with Hoppy on this.. just make sure you do it right and you will never have to replace it unless you have any problems or switching to a bigger tank or smaller etc.


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## Ethoxide

I am currently in the last drying phase for my mineralized soil and have found all the materials except, muriate of potash. It is really difficult to get garden supplies during the winter, so i went around looking for sources of KCl, and the only thing I could find was NoSalt salt substitute, which has a few other ingredients for taste. Do I have any other options here?


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## SdJaCK&SaLLy

Your tank looks very nice!


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## michu

Muriate of Potash was all I've found here; thusfar. Did you check a farm supply? Or are you not near any farming areas?

What amazes me is that I can't find dolomite. There is tons of it on the ground here, but none in the store. I'm guessing they don't sell it because it's already in the soil. I've had people laugh when I call to ask for it. 

I've found dolomite powder to use as a vitamin supplement on the Internet, but not any plain ol' dolomite as a fert.


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## Homer_Simpson

michu said:


> Muriate of Potash was all I've found here; thusfar. Did you check a farm supply? Or are you not near any farming areas?
> 
> What amazes me is that I can't find dolomite. There is tons of it on the ground here, but none in the store. I'm guessing they don't sell it because it's already in the soil. I've had people laugh when I call to ask for it.
> 
> I've found dolomite powder to use as a vitamin supplement on the Internet, but not any plain ol' dolomite as a fert.


From what I understand, you can substitute crushed coral, mixed with epsom salts. Some health food stores sell powdered dolomite for internal human consumption and since it is food grade, it should be safe for fish, but you should still double check to make sure that it has no other fillers if you go that route.


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## Ethoxide

Ethoxide said:


> I am currently in the last drying phase for my mineralized soil and have found all the materials except, muriate of potash. It is really difficult to get garden supplies during the winter, so i went around looking for sources of KCl, and the only thing I could find was NoSalt salt substitute, which has a few other ingredients for taste. Do I have any other options here?


 
So I checked the ingredients for NoSalt, they are as listed: Potassium chloride, patassium bitartrate, adipic acid, silicon dioxide, mineral oil and fumaric acid. Is this no good for what i want? All i can find at Garden Centers are premixed fertilizers, which would probably reverse all the washing.


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## Hoppy

Apparently the only way aquatic plants get potassium is through the water column. They don't pick it up from the roots at all. This, I get from reading the Barr Report. So, I have to wonder what the value of potassium supplied below the substrate is. I have assumed it is to be an initial supply of potassium for the plants, but if the roots can't pick it up, why put it there?


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## Ethoxide

Hoppy said:


> Apparently the only way aquatic plants get potassium is through the water column. They don't pick it up from the roots at all. This, I get from reading the Barr Report. So, I have to wonder what the value of potassium supplied below the substrate is. I have assumed it is to be an initial supply of potassium for the plants, but if the roots can't pick it up, why put it there?


If this is the case it would explain why the potassium is the only nutrient to eventually run out.


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## michu

Ethoxide said:


> If this is the case it would explain why the potassium is the only nutrient to eventually run out.


It's all so confusing to me. I read all the various forums, threads, and articles about non-CO2 methods/creating one's own substrate and it all seems to conflict. My head feels as if it is going to spin off my shoulders before this endeavor is complete.

If I knew for sure that I could get the soil out of the river and not pick up any nasties, I'd just mineralize that since I was able to find out that the soil there is 35% clay, ph of 7, etc... giving me a number letting me know how much to cut it with silt and sand. Unfortunately, I have no idea what has been dumped or spilled there to know if it is toxic. This area is not industrialized (Appalachia), but fert runoff would be a problem, I think.


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## michu

I meant to post the link to the nrcs soil database if any of you are interested in checking your soil. Take your time when using it and go look at all the tabs to find the data. Also, to view your area, you have to mark it with the AOI tool.

http://websoilsurvey.nrcs.usda.gov/app/WebSoilSurvey.aspx


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## Left C

michu said:


> ... Unfortunately, I have no idea what has been dumped or spilled there to know if it is toxic. This area is not industrialized (Appalachia), but fert runoff would be a problem, I think.


Do you know if any textile, chemical or battery manufacturers were located on your river? They were large polluters many years ago.


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## michu

There were below me, but not above. I was thinking of going to where the river flows into Lake Watauga that is touted to be clean, getting a soil sample, and taking it to be tested. But even doing that, I may not get the same soil that was tested if I was to go dig.

I also read that silt has been washed and is worthless in this article: 
http://home.infinet.net/teban/how-to.html and this http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

Every place I go says something different. :icon_eek:

If, and I realize this is a big if, I found good, clean soil and take the top 2 inches, would it already be mineralized from the rain and sun? Or would I still need to mineralize it? Or would it not be rich enough to mineralize so that it would last longer than a few years?

And would boiling, remove it of the good stuff rendering it worthless as well?


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## michu

How would I know that bagged topsoil was clean providing I ever find a suitable brand? Where did they get the topsoil? Is it guaranteed to be free from chemicals? They had to dig it from somewhere, didn't they? Do they find pristine earth to dig or do they treat it in some manner getting rid of all the "bad stuff", then retreat with ferts to put nutrients back into it?

As you can see, this substrate thing is hurting my brain. LOL


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## Hoppy

Mineralizing the topsoil changes the organic chemicals in it to inorganic chemicals, and the ammonia based chemicals to nitrates. At least that is how I understand it. Then we get by with using the mineralized topsoil without worrying about what it is doing to the water, because we keep it covered with over an inch of inert substrate, like sand or SMS or Flourite, and make an effort not to drag the topsoil to the top by pulling up rooted plants or deep vacuuming it. That should reduce the risk of various undesired chemicals in the soil to an acceptable level, and so many people have done this, some without even mineralizing the topsoil, without major problems, that it has to have a very high chance of working out well.

Farm fertilizers are only different from what we want when they use urea or ammonia in them, and the mineralizing gets rid of both of those compounds.

Weed killers are required by law, as far as I know, to have a very limited life before they breakdown to harmless chemicals. Mineralizing takes care of those.

Insecticides might be a problem, but, again as far as I know, the laws prevent use of such chemicals if they harm animal life through runoff or other ways. That's why DDT is outlawed. But, mineralizing also takes care of these.

The remaining class of possible contaminants are industrial, and todays laws prohibit discharging them into rivers or dumping them anywhere. So, it would be "heritage" chemicals that might be a problem, but river silt gets moved along so much I don't see how there could be more than traces left anywhere we might want to dig river silt.


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## michu

So do you think I could just go dig what I perceive to be as clean, mix the topsoil with subsoil to get a 5-10% ratio of clay, mineralize it, and use it? I'd also like to cap it with the fine sand/gravel I've found in the same area so it all somewhat matches in color if I do get it mixed. Does this sound reasonable or just a wasted endeavor? The tank is large (for me); so I'd like to have a decent chance of a success.


----------



## mistergreen

Hoppy said:


> Apparently the only way aquatic plants get potassium is through the water column. They don't pick it up from the roots at all. This, I get from reading the Barr Report. So, I have to wonder what the value of potassium supplied below the substrate is. I have assumed it is to be an initial supply of potassium for the plants, but if the roots can't pick it up, why put it there?


yup, here's a list of nutrients from 'Ecology of the Planted Aquarium'
plants prefer 
Shoot uptake
potassium
NH4+

Root uptake
Phosphorus


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## michu

Hoppy said:


> Apparently the only way aquatic plants get potassium is through the water column. They don't pick it up from the roots at all. This, I get from reading the Barr Report. So, I have to wonder what the value of potassium supplied below the substrate is. I have assumed it is to be an initial supply of potassium for the plants, but if the roots can't pick it up, why put it there?


I assumed, and my assumptions are usually wrong, that the potash would slowly leach into the water column providing a few months of potassium until it ran out. I'm assuming all the nutrients must do some leaching. If not, I'll still have to dose since I plan on having plants attached to rocks and driftwood. If so, I hope to only have to dose once a week. Otherwise, I'll be chained to the tank which is fine most of the time, but a problem when I want to leave the state to go annoy my children/grandbrats. As it is, I take my menagerie with me when I travel due to having two birds die within a week of my being gone and skinny, matted dogs upon my return under my husband's less than attentive care. I can't carry a 150 gallon tank with me. LOL


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## Ethoxide

Seeing as I can't find muriate of Potash and the fact that plants take K from the water column, do you guys think I will be ok without it in the soil?


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## SCMurphy

If you have a source of potassium that you can dose the water column with then you can put some of that in with the dolomite. If you can find K2SO4 mix it in with the topsoil while you are mineralizing it to free up the SO4-- part, as part of the reason to mineralize is to get rid of the sulfides to prevent formation of HS2 by certain bacteria in the aquarium.

K2SO4 Potassium Sulfate
SO4-- sulfide ion
HS2 Hydrogen Sulfide, smells like rotten eggs.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Ethoxide said:


> Seeing as I can't find muriate of Potash and the fact that plants take K from the water column, do you guys think I will be ok without it in the soil?


I have more muriate of Potash than I will ever use and got it from Revy on clearance. Seeing that you are in Canada, I don't think that I should have any problems sending you some for free. Shoot me a PM and let me know how much you need and I will send you some.


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## lauraleellbp

So apparently I've ended up with an extremely "au natural" mineralization process... meaning, I left my topsoil out on my back porch on top of black garbage bags totally exposed to the elements for almost 2 months now. A few days ago I sifted through and managed to pull out most of the wood chips, rocks, and I think I washed off most of the manure. From 2 whole bags of topsoil, I'm down to maybe 2 gallons of soil. :icon_roll Seeing as it rained today, once again it's going to go through a rinse and dry cycle.

I'm supposed to be getting some soil in from Ken, but I'm also curious to see how this would turn out... I'm thinking of taking my 5.5gal in to work anyways to set up a betta tank, so I may just end up trying it out!


----------



## Homer_Simpson

lauraleellbp said:


> So apparently I've ended up with an extremely "au natural" mineralization process... meaning, I left my topsoil out on my back porch on top of black garbage bags totally exposed to the elements for almost 2 months now. A few days ago I sifted through and managed to pull out most of the wood chips, rocks, and I think I washed off most of the manure. From 2 whole bags of topsoil, I'm down to maybe 2 gallons of soil. :icon_roll Seeing as it rained today, once again it's going to go through a rinse and dry cycle.
> 
> I'm supposed to be getting some soil in from Ken, but I'm also curious to see how this would turn out... I'm thinking of taking my 5.5gal in to work anyways to set up a betta tank, so I may just end up trying it out!


Lol, I still have a series of wash and rinse cyles to go. Sounds like a good plan to test out what you have on your 5.5 gallon. Keep us updated. 

I am thinking of doing the same, if I can squeeze some more space in my home. 5.5 gallon to test mineralized topsoil, zoomed 501 or Eheim 2232 filter, DIY via Hagen unit I have lieing around(have not decided for sure), and 27 watt Home Depot type lamp(I may consider 13 watt 6500K fluorescent if forgo c02 injection).


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## dghofer

Just wondering, but wouldn't regular topsoil work or does it have too many additives?


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## lauraleellbp

The problem with my (Timberline brand) topsoil is it was mostly composed of wood chips and manure. By the time I'd sorted all that out of 2x 40lb bags, I was left with just a few pounds of soil!


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## Homer_Simpson

dghofer said:


> Just wondering, but wouldn't regular topsoil work or does it have too many additives?


The key is to put it though more soak and rinse cycles to be totally safe, if you are not sure of the soil you are using. I used a soil(Green Leaf was the brand name) that is highly questionable as I used it to set up a Diana Walstad Tank that proved disasterous: worst plant growth that I had ever seen, fish death after fish death, shrimps and endler's live bearers dropping like flies daily. The funny thing was that the water parameters all tested normal and the tank was cycled with nothing that the test results would show as out of the ordinary before, during, and after the deaths. I patiently waited hoping the tank would stabilize, but it never it, things just went from bad to worse. I suspect something nasty was leaching from the substrate that was causing the deaths and there was likely some compaction going on as the soil smelled a bit yeast like when I tore down the tank.


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## chase127

hey, i dont think i have the will power to look through all 22 pages... but i have a 75 i want to do soil with and i have some q's. 

how many bags of topsoil did you use? how much of black sand did you use for a border and to top it off? whats the total depth of your substrate? 

thanks


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## chase127

lauraleellbp said:


> The problem with my (Timberline brand) topsoil is it was mostly composed of wood chips and manure. By the time I'd sorted all that out of 2x 40lb bags, I was left with just a few pounds of soil!


youre right, the timberline stuff is all bascially wood chips! :icon_roll


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## TheCryptKeeper

it never ends up being anywhere near as much as you start out with.


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## chase127

is the dolomite necessary? im not using ro/di water so i should have ca and mg in my water.


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## lauraleellbp

The dolomite helps keep the substrate from becoming too acidic, especially at the bottom, away from the water column. You could always substitute with aragonite or crushed coral. Seachem's Onyx Sand or Tidal Coastal Gray (SW substrate) would also probably work. I saw a bag of the Coastal Gray at my local Petsmart yesterday for $7 (I should have bought it, too, now that I think about it...)


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## chase127

but what if i want my water to become acidic... my tap pH is high and i would like it lower!


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## lauraleellbp

You don't use a lot, just a light dusting under the substrate- and no matter what you do want to be sure that the mineralized soil doesn't become too acidic.


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## Hoppy

Ordinary cuttlebones sold for birds are calcium carbonate. I got one for about $1, and used a knife to scrape off enough to dust the bottom of a 10 gallon tank, with a lot left over.


----------



## Ethoxide

Hey guys just want to chime in that the mineralized soil works great. I used soil I dug up from my yard (the day before our first snowfall) and everything I planted is growing insanely fast. Except for a hygrophila corymbosa which looks to be the same size as when I planted it, it's not dying or anything however so maybe it just grows slowly. The tank is nearly ready for fish and I was wondering if keeping corys in there would be a bad idea since i'm not sure how much they will dig up the substrate.


----------



## Hoppy

Corys don't really dig, they just rearrange the very top level of substrate, while looking for something good to eat. I have 3 in my 10 gallon tank with mineralized topsoil and Flourite Black sand. No problems.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Ethoxide said:


> Hey guys just want to chime in that the mineralized soil works great. I used soil I dug up from my yard (the day before our first snowfall) and everything I planted is growing insanely fast. Except for a hygrophila corymbosa which looks to be the same size as when I planted it, it's not dying or anything however so maybe it just grows slowly. The tank is nearly ready for fish and I was wondering if keeping corys in there would be a bad idea since i'm not sure how much they will dig up the substrate.


alot of plants have a much slower growth rate in a top soil tank. Like Hoppy said.. the cory's aren't going to do anything. I have a large pleco and it doesn't tear anything out.


----------



## hokuryu

Maybe this is the subject for another thread - please tell me, anyone, if this seems hijacking, which isn't my intent. 

I am so new to all this that this is crazy, but keyed as I am, I am already planning out a dream, and much larger, tank - 96 gallons and up. As opposed to the slapdash learning curve I've undergone for my 20H, this time around, I am going to plan this tank thoroughly, and I'll begin with the issue of substrate planning. 

I have read through many threads on this forum, and on Tom Barr's site, on the subject of AS I & II. This sticky was one of the earliest I came to - prompted by an early nod from Laural (thanks, Laural - still chewing, as you can see). 

My supply water is dkH 8. I have seen issues some have had with AS's clarity issues, if I've read Tom's discussion right, especially on larger tanks. 

I love the fun of making one's own premium soil, such as this thread's subject - can anyone talk about the issue of DIY mineralized soil and water clarity, esp. if one is a finicky replanter, as I seem to be? 

Any other direct comparisons of mineralized soil to AS experiences would be appreciated as well. Again, if this is a thread hijacking, I apologize and would be very glad to create a specific thread on the subject. Thanks.

Paul


----------



## mistergreen

i'd tend not to disturb the substrate too much... You'd sit on your hands a bit and bite the bullet. There are times when you have to move plants.

Stem plants are pretty easy.. They don't create a big root system. Rooted plants (crypts, swords etc) are trickier.. Pull slowly so you'll expose a little of the roots and cut the roots. DOn't yank the whole thing out. Then replant that or throw away.


----------



## hokuryu

mistergreen said:


> i'd tend not to disturb the substrate too much... You'd sit on your hands a bit and bite the bullet. There are times when you have to move plants.
> 
> Stem plants are pretty easy.. They don't create a big root system. Rooted plants (crypts, swords etc) are trickier.. Pull slowly so you'll expose a little of the roots and cut the roots. DOn't yank the whole thing out. Then replant that or throw away.


Thanks, mistergreen. 

I have seen a recent youtube video of Tropica's methods for planting - and they cut the roots, which in my noob status was news to me. I have always been so ginger about cutting through the roots, that it has caused problems - a recent shipment of plants, for instance, such great plants, many with a massive rootstock, that for me to get them in and anchored required such large holes that I often uprooted everything else. 

In the future, if I buy mature plants, I'm presuming the rootstock development is in sync with the plant maturity - so that if I snip the rootstock back, it will be tougher for the plant to sustain its current height, nutritional demand, etc. - so I should probably trim back such plants as well, correct?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

mine has been up and running for a while now and I don't really have a problem with uprooting any plants. as long as you take your time and not get impatient you will not have a problem. some people swear that when you take a plant and move it, it will cloud up the entire tank.. false.. unless you went in with a weed wacker lol

Ken


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## michu

AaronT said:


> No, microwaving the soil doesn't work. The mineralization is performed by various microbes in the soil that are active when exposed to oxygen and the soil is moist. Baking or microwaving the soil will only kill off those beneficial microbes.
> 
> Patience is the key. You don't have to sift the soil if you don't want to. I've just found that it makes for less algae initially.


What about dehydrating in an oven set for 100 degrees? My dehydration settings can be set from 100 to 175. If dehydration would work, could I go higher than 100?


----------



## Qckwzrd

I got my kit from Torpedobarb (thanx again) about 3 weeks ago and set everything up (so simple and easy). I used an old filter that's been running on another tank so I had no cycling problems. I planted a few plants, added a DIY co2 and not I'm running into algae problems on the plants  so I'm goin to redo my tank, reduce the time the lights are on and fix that. But the plants I have are growing alot! Hopefully after I fix this algae problem I can post pics of my progress.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Qckwzrd said:


> I got my kit from Torpedobarb (thanx again) about 3 weeks ago and set everything up (so simple and easy). I used an old filter that's been running on another tank so I had no cycling problems. I planted a few plants, added a DIY co2 and not I'm running into algae problems on the plants  so I'm goin to redo my tank, reduce the time the lights are on and fix that. But the plants I have are growing alot! Hopefully after I fix this algae problem I can post pics of my progress.


What kind of algae? It is not unsual to run into some algae issues when first setting up a tank with mineralized topsoil. The recommended solution is increased water change frequency and the algae should recede. Also, you should pack the tank with some fast growing stem plants and about 25% floating plants, which should help the tank stabilize and prevent algae from getting a stranglehold on your tank.


----------



## NeonFlux

My 10 gallon recent setup. So far the plants went from old and wrinkly when i first got them from mail, to a fascinating new growth and new stems.


----------



## AmunRa

After searching dolomite and potash for almost two weekend and not finding it around, I'm leaning to crush these two and use for my 29 Gallon set-up

Dolomite
Potash 


Any comment?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

the tank looks good neon! it is getting nice growth.. sweet


----------



## smoq

I was wondering- when I get thru all the steps of making the mineralized topsoil, can I let it dry and add this to a tank later? I am asking cause I don't have a new tank yet but I'd like to start the process as early as possible, cause I see it is time-consuming.


----------



## hokuryu

marcinsmok said:


> I was wondering- when I get thru all the steps of making the mineralized topsoil, can I let it dry and add this to a tank later? I am asking cause I don't have a new tank yet but I'd like to start the process as early as possible, cause I see it is time-consuming.


My question as well - I have enough soil to make several tanks' worth. Will it keep, once made?

Secondly, I asked on another thread, sorry for the duplicate but I'm hopeful of some thoughts, as it will determine what I do today, or not - if I mineralize the soil naturally, it will take a few weeks of wet/dry cycles. I have plants coming this week, which I would need to keep in my hi-tech 20H, and then move over to the NPT, low-light, non-CO2 tank. Do I risk kill off, i.e., do they adapt to their high-uptake condition, and then get shocked to death if moved to a low-uptake regime?

Alternatively, I'm thinking of Tom Barr's method of either boiling or baking the soil, to convert NH4, then starting the new tank, with fish in place, with a robust regime of Seachem Stability. Any obvious issues I'm missing by doing it this way?


----------



## mistergreen

yes, you can save your soil for later use...

You can bake or boil but drying will to the same thing without the mess and energy.


Plants will go through a transition period (hi->low tech).. Depending on the plant, the leaves will melt and new leaves replace the melted leaves.


----------



## walluby

*Leap of faith*

Hello there all,

I have read through this whole thread because
I am trying to decide whether to change over
to mineralized soil. I thought Laura might want
to answer this one, but I would like to hear
from you other guys. Question: Did you switch
over to mineralized soil for experimentation
or wanting to have more success in growing
nice plants. Let me explain. I have a 60 gallon
planted tank, low tech, with crypts, swords,
anubias, vals, and some stem plants. I don't
have a photo, but I can get one. I also have
eco complete substrate. I also have Discus.
I am considering to switch to mineralized soil
mainly because I want to cap it with sand, 
cause I want sand, and also I thought I would
want to see the results of this experiment. 
My plants are doing great and so are the fish. 
Question: Will I be giving up anything or 
jeopardizing the health of my fish by switching 
over to mineralized soil. I am concerned about 
the first few weeks for the substrate and water 
column to balance out and settle in. 

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## michu

I know this is an incredibly stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Can I use some of this leftover potash as a fert? Will the chloride hurt anything. I was thinking of putting in 1/4 teaspoon and mixing it into a gallon bucket... or however much you guys tell me I can do to pour into a 150 gallon tank if I could use it as a source of K.

Thanks


----------



## hokuryu

michu said:


> I know this is an incredibly stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Can I use some of this leftover potash as a fert? Will the chloride hurt anything. I was thinking of putting in 1/4 teaspoon and mixing it into a gallon bucket... or however much you guys tell me I can do to pour into a 150 gallon tank if I could use it as a source of K.
> 
> Thanks


P'shah - How about a truly stupid _action _- like forgetting to lay in both the dolomite and potash you were kind enough to send my way? [The drugs excuse is starting to wear thin, I know.....] Well, excuse to start another tank....:biggrin:


----------



## michu

hokuryu said:


> P'shah - How about a truly stupid _action _- like forgetting to lay in both the dolomite and potash you were kind enough to send my way? [The drugs excuse is starting to wear thin, I know.....] Well, excuse to start another tank....:biggrin:


I almost forgot myself. I was just about to pour in the mud, when the cat knocked something off the table onto the floor.... and stopped by the bag of dolomite. LOL I gave the cat an extra treat.


----------



## illumnae

I asked this on another thread and i notice it asked earlier on this one too, but it seems to have gotten ignored, so I'll try again 

Is Seachem Equilibrium a good replacement for dolomite + muriate of potash? It contains K, Ca and Mg and I'm presuming if Epsom salts are good enough a replacement, the fact that it's easily soluble wouldn't be an issue? (Add to that the fact that in between the water column and the equilibrium there would be the clay-infused mineralized topsoil and the capping sand, which would lower solution of the Equilibrium)

Reason I'm asking is that I have alot of leftover Equilibrium from the days when I was doing high-tech EI dosing, and dolomite is nigh impossible to get in Singapore


----------



## hokuryu

michu said:


> I almost forgot myself. I was just about to pour in the mud, when the cat knocked something off the table onto the floor.... and stopped by the bag of dolomite. LOL I gave the cat an extra treat.


LOL - I'm convinced cats just laugh at us. The difference is they do it publically, but dogs do it sheepishly, in private.


----------



## hokuryu

illumnae said:


> I asked this on another thread and i notice it asked earlier on this one too, but it seems to have gotten ignored, so I'll try again
> 
> Is Seachem Equilibrium a good replacement for dolomite + muriate of potash? It contains K, Ca and Mg and I'm presuming if Epsom salts are good enough a replacement, the fact that it's easily soluble wouldn't be an issue? (Add to that the fact that in between the water column and the equilibrium there would be the clay-infused mineralized topsoil and the capping sand, which would lower solution of the Equilibrium)
> 
> Reason I'm asking is that I have alot of leftover Equilibrium from the days when I was doing high-tech EI dosing, and dolomite is nigh impossible to get in Singapore


I think the concern is that it is unbound, and instantly available, so you'd end up with a massive dosing up front, followed by nothing a short while thereafter. What I got from Michu (can't say thank you enough, Michu) was very coarse - perfect for laying in under the substrate.

As long as you don't forget to do it.


----------



## illumnae

But aren't epsom salts, which are a viable replacement for Mg, also unbound and instantly available?


----------



## hokuryu

illumnae said:


> But aren't epsom salts, which are a viable replacement for Mg, also unbound and instantly available?


Take everything I say with a grain of salt (pun intended), since I'm so new, but I think some of it has to do with granule size/surface area. Something coarse, like crushed coral, dolomite in coarse granules is simply going to be released more slowly than a powder. 

Eventually, everything will be released; it's just a matter of how controlledly so - but I might be off on my reasoning. I know Homer has suggested MgSO4 as a soil hardener, so perhaps he'll jump on with some thoughts.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

hokuryu said:


> ...I know Homer has suggested MgSO4 as a soil hardener, so perhaps he'll jump on with some thoughts.


Lol, I am in the same boat as you guys, I have absolutely no experience with this method. I have yet to set up the mineralized topsoil tank and see what happens. From what was posted earlier though, I believe SCMurphy who has a lot of experience with this method suggested a sprinkling of crushed coral with Epsom salts as a substitute for dolomite if you were unable to find dolomite. Given that he has a lot of experience with the method and recommends it, I doubt that such a substitution would cause issues. 
After a super long wait and some sifting through a fine sieve, I ended with a small portion of soil which matches the light airy sand described as true mineralized soil. Problem is that it is maybe enough for a one or two gallon tank not 5 gallon tank which I want to set up. Also the soil I used for the mineralization was the same soil I had problems with when I used it to set up a natural planted tank. So, I have gone back to square one. I found a more suitable soil that I just started mineralizing. Lol, I will be lucky if I complete the mineralization by June 09 at the rate that the soil dries after every soak.


----------



## michu

I added 1/4 tsp of the potash to my water column. Within 2 days my plants greened up and some plant... going to go hunt to see what it is (I'm guessing a crypt) grew 5 inches. Also the plants that were getting thin... the look right before they form holes, appear thicker? They dont' have that lacy look anyway. I'm thinking I didn't sprinkle enough potash since I just did two light handfuls on 9 square feet of foot print. Or it all dissolved immediately due to my doing something wrong. Either way, I'm going to dose again if I see my plants going back down.


----------



## michu

I forgot the point to the above post. Potash is extremely soluble. I'm no chemist and a newbie at this, but it stands to reason to me that soluble wouldn't be as good as something slower to dissolve.


----------



## michu

Definitely not a crypt after looking at them. :icon_redf I don't know what it is... a weed? The thing is nearly to the top of the tank. I'm thinking I need to cut it because it's one long, leggy plant with the bottom half looking rather sad and the top all green. It reminds me of the weeks I pull from my flower beds. LOL

Another goof I did, was the h. difformis (found it while hunting for my weed). I planted it in a rather strange way. I stuck the long stems in the soil in the center, because they looked like runners. Two days ago I had the bright idea that since they were "runners" they might grow up my trunks. I pulled them up and tied the poor things down, twisting them all around my trunks. ROFL. I'm off to put them back in the ground and float some on the top as they are supposed to be done. At least they're easy beginner plants and I *might* not kill those. They were one of the things in the tank that didn't turn yellow.

I'll stop talking about plants now in the wrong thread. Sorry about that. Just didn't want to mislead you with the "crypt" since it's definitely not a crypt.


----------



## illumnae

I still don't understand why epsom salts, which dissolve readily, are an acceptable substitute while Seachem Equilibrium isn't  Maybe I'm just not intellectually inclined 

As for MgSO4, I read somewhere in a post by AaronT that K2SO4 is not a suitable replacement for KCl due to the fact that the SO4 content may cause Hydrogen Sulphide pockets in future. The same should apply to MgSO4 i presume. AaronT suggested that if K2SO4 is the only available form of K, then it should be mixed with the soil and mineralized together with it to get rid of the SO4 and leave the K in the soil. Perhaps the same can be done with MgSO4?


----------



## Coltonorr

Ok
I am about 1 week from setting up a 100 gallon Mineralized aquarium...but I have read most of this thread and have a question, that was addressed but not really...
I went and got natural clay from from a local clay/pottery painting place and it was a gray brown color. I read on about page 16/17 of this thread about reddish clays...so I reacted in my typical knee jerk style and had red shipped from the link provided to me 2 day express so it gets here on time, now I'm thinking why did I do that...the clay I have is probably fine...
Any thoughts?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Coltonorr said:


> Ok
> I am about 1 week from setting up a 100 gallon Mineralized aquarium...but I have read most of this thread and have a question, that was addressed but not really...
> I went and got natural clay from from a local clay/pottery painting place and it was a gray brown color. I read on about page 16/17 of this thread about reddish clays...so I reacted in my typical knee jerk style and had red shipped from the link provided to me 2 day express so it gets here on time, now I'm thinking why did I do that...the clay I have is probably fine...
> Any thoughts?


My understanding is that the only thing to really be concerned about is that the clay does not contain polymers and is all natural. The color of the clay reflects the iron content I believe, but could be wrong, but whether this translates to better plant growth or not I cannot say. I would imagine, equally important if not more important would be other minerals and so the type of soil you use could itself be more or less iron rich as it contains iron to some degree. Personally, I plan to use laterite only because I have some collecting dust.


----------



## CLASSIC

Hello all, GREAT thread, thank you AT for showing the way and everyone else who chimed in along this thread. 

I started the process of mineralizing yesterday, went out and bought all the other ingredients needed except 1. I cannot find Potash anywhere  I was hoping someone might have extra that i could buy. If so please PM me, i would really appreciate it. If no one has any, is there a substitute? Could i just dose potassium?

Once everything is in place i will take photos every 2-4 weeks for a year to show progress   

TY all, Jesse


----------



## Coltonorr

Classic I have some.


----------



## CLASSIC

Wow thanks Coltonorr! I sent you a PM. Also i found a place here in Portland where im located that sells every type of clay you can imagine, they sell it wet or dry by the pound. Dry powdered form is around $1 a pound for red iron rich clay, and has no additives at all. They said they ship, the company is called Georgies ceramic and clay co. I would post link but not sure if we are supposed to do that here. Thanks again all, Jesse


----------



## smoq

CLASSIC said:


> I would post link but not sure if we are supposed to do that here. Thanks again all, Jesse


Don't be shy, do it


----------



## CLASSIC

This is the Co. i bought the powdered red clay from. Super nice folks to boot. :icon_smil

http://www.georgies.com/


----------



## Coltonorr

I just set up my tank today...all I can say is...I'm pumped!!


----------



## CLASSIC

I was wondering if anyone ended up mixing sand into their topsoil along with the other ingredients? I am going to cap mine with sand up to 4-5" or so in some areas and was wondering if mixing some sand into the mud would help with anaerobic pockets and also make it a bit easier for roots to spread. Also would adding sand to the soil be a problem due to nutrients escaping faster? 

I know some said they planned on using a 3-1 ratio sand/soil, did it work for you? Any problems? 

Thanks all.


----------



## hokuryu

CLASSIC said:


> I was wondering if anyone ended up mixing sand into their topsoil along with the other ingredients? I am going to cap mine with sand up to 4-5" or so in some areas and was wondering if mixing some sand into the mud would help with anaerobic pockets and also make it a bit easier for roots to spread. Also would adding sand to the soil be a problem due to nutrients escaping faster?
> 
> I know some said they planned on using a 3-1 ratio sand/soil, did it work for you? Any problems?
> 
> Thanks all.


Classic, http://www.barrreport.com/co2-aquatic-plant-fertilization/4319-diy-substrate.html#post25632Tom Barr does this - check here, for instance, or around here and his site generally for many experience and data points on the subject.


----------



## mistergreen

you can mix in larger particles too like gravel & baked clay soil. It seems to work well.


----------



## CLASSIC

Nice, thanks fellas. I will mix in sand and some of my existing gravel and mulm. Wish i had read about EC before i mineralized this soil lol. Im on the final drying stage and its in my room on a tarp haha. My friends think i have lost my mind. My only response to them was, "its the difference between buying a painting or painting one myself." :wink:


----------



## michu

All I can say is be careful. I mixed in river silt which was supposedly 35% clay and 65% sand. On one end of my tank, it keeps rising to the top. To stop the bleeding, I have now laid down 7 inches of CQ on the bleeding side of the tank which had more of the sand/clay mix. I'm thinking I need to tear down the tank to yank the soil and start over ensuring to use plenty of pottery clay instead of the sand/clay mix.


----------



## SCMurphy

illumnae said:


> I still don't understand why epsom salts, which dissolve readily, are an acceptable substitute while Seachem Equilibrium isn't  Maybe I'm just not intellectually inclined
> 
> As for MgSO4, I read somewhere in a post by AaronT that K2SO4 is not a suitable replacement for KCl due to the fact that the SO4 content may cause Hydrogen Sulphide pockets in future. The same should apply to MgSO4 i presume. AaronT suggested that if K2SO4 is the only available form of K, then it should be mixed with the soil and mineralized together with it to get rid of the SO4 and leave the K in the soil. *Perhaps the same can be done with MgSO4?*


Yes it can, you can mix the ingredients together with the soil and mineralize the whole mess if you like. You should wait until the latter stages of mineralization so you don't wash away the additives. I wouldn't mix the dolomite in though it really needs to be on the very bottom so it has the best chance of staying there. 



CLASSIC said:


> I was wondering if anyone ended up mixing sand into their topsoil along with the other ingredients? I am going to cap mine with sand up to 4-5" or so in some areas and was wondering if mixing some sand into the mud would help with anaerobic pockets and also make it a bit easier for roots to spread. Also would adding sand to the soil be a problem due to nutrients escaping faster?
> 
> I know some said they planned on using a 3-1 ratio sand/soil, did it work for you? Any problems?
> 
> Thanks all.


You can bulk up the soil if you want. I recommend using the same stuff as you plan on using as a cap, because the larger particles are going to rise to the top and if you use a white bulking aggregate like chick grit, and cap of a dark sand like Tahitian Moon Sand, you end up with a white substrate.



Coltonorr said:


> Ok
> I am about 1 week from setting up a 100 gallon Mineralized aquarium...but I have read most of this thread and have a question, that was addressed but not really...
> I went and got natural clay from from a local clay/pottery painting place and it was a gray brown color. I read on about page 16/17 of this thread about reddish clays...so I reacted in my typical knee jerk style and had red shipped from the link provided to me 2 day express so it gets here on time, now I'm thinking why did I do that...the clay I have is probably fine...
> Any thoughts?


The red clay is iron rich, if you take a gray clay and mix an iron additive into it it might turn reddish, hard to say. Your gray-brown clay probably has some iron in it. When I did the research for clays I was looking for a laterite substitute, something low in most minerals other than iron.


----------



## suebe333

I'm going out today to try to find the Clay , dolomite and potash , hope I have luck


----------



## CLASSIC

Thanks for the response all.


----------



## illumnae

illumnae said:


> I still don't understand why epsom salts, which dissolve readily, are an acceptable substitute while Seachem Equilibrium isn't


Am i right to assume that noone actually knows?


----------



## michu

One of my angels look sickly tonight; so I checked my water params. pH off the charts. And by off the charts, I mean higher than the API test registers. I assume this to be due to the dolomite/soil since my water has a pH of 6.8.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I have the topsoil kits available if anyone is looking for some.


----------



## mistergreen

illumnae said:


> Am i right to assume that noone actually knows?


who said equilibrium isn't helpful? and epson salt and equilibrium are not of the same chemical make up.



michu said:


> One of my angels look sickly tonight; so I checked my water params. pH off the charts. And by off the charts, I mean higher than the API test registers. I assume this to be due to the dolomite/soil since my water has a pH of 6.8.


Yeah, that's the downside to soils.. The PH is rather unpredictable. It might be the dolomite but it can be the actual soil & clay. And you don't want to do too make water changes to correct the problem because of nutrient issues.... It took about a year for my regular soil tank to go from 8ph to 5.5ph.


----------



## michu

mistergreen said:


> who said equilibrium isn't helpful? and epson salt and equilibrium are not of the same chemical make up.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's the downside to soils.. The PH is rather unpredictable. It might be the dolomite but it can be the actual soil & clay. And you don't want to do too make water changes to correct the problem because of nutrient issues.... It took about a year for my regular soil tank to go from 8ph to 5.5ph.


*sigh* I wish I'd read this before I went off half-cocked in a panic and semi-tore down my tank tonight. I had the bright idea that I could remove the CQ, extract some of the mud since I thought I had too much, possibly pick out some of the dolomite in case I put too much, mix in a little sphagnum moss to the mud, and recap. LOL

Yeah right. The CQ had sunk into much of the mud. The sphagnum moss would just come right to the top because I could get the tank completely drained. The only way I could have pulled this off would have been to pull the CQ, clean it, throw out the mud and start over. Unfortunately, I didn't have another batch of mineralized topsoil going; so this was out of the question. 

I pulled the larger stump since I noticed my water was red in a white bucket, not yellow as I thought it should be. I was worried the stump might be red cedar and didn't like the looks of it anyway. The other stump I chopped up and spread it about. I added some granite rocks to give some sort of hardscape and filled her back up. I think it might look better, but have no way of knowing since my tank is one big, muddy mess. LOL I planted half the plants and left the other half in buckets; since I gave up because I can't see a darned thing. You'd think I'd learn to not go off half-cocked, but obviously not. Blind panic is not good.

I did get that darned pleco out of my tank that was digging up my plants and going under the gravel stirring things up. The other poor fish are in the mud. :/ The sick angel croaked from the move to a bucket.

I also swiped one of my son's white cotton socks and filled it with the sphagnum and put it in an old magnum 350. If this was a stupid idea, please let me know and I'll yank the magnum. Any other ideas of how to get the pH down and stay down would be much appreciated.


----------



## Coltonorr

michu,
remember stay out of the tank...knee jerk reactions are usually bad!
what type of dolomite did you use? 
it sounds like you didnt follow the steps exactly and I think that is key to success.
IMO it might be better to start from scratch...esp if you have stirred up the entire tank, including the mud. 
In my 100 long 72"x18", I only used a 5 gal bucket half full of MS/clay...thats it. My layer of soil is 1/2". 
I think you are just getting tannins from your driftwood...not a bad thing but the tea colored water more than likely blocks light. I am dealing with it too but I'm doing 30% water changes every other day.
be patient


----------



## mistergreen

yeah, once you're set on this substrate, you're pretty much stuck with it. Leaving it alone is better than tearing it apart. Again, you can follow the instructions to the 't' but soil & clay are unpredictable. You might have ph, gh issues and anaerobic issues.

Oh, I forgot pleco sp like to dig in fine substrates. Thanks for reminding me.
I have a rubberlip that made a pit in his 'cave'.


----------



## michu

My tank is still cloudy this morning, but I can at least see things now. I left my sump running all night (or more correctly all morning since it was morning when I went to bed) with massive amounts of filter material in place. From the look of the filter, I'd say I was successful in removing some of the mud after all. LOL

As for the anaerobic issues, I did have massive bubbling when I tried to remove the mud last night, but the bubbles did not stink. The only thing that stunk to high heaven was that one stump I pulled. I do punch down my substrate fairly often which I'm sure added to the mud/CQ mix. Also, my topsoil had a lot of sand in it as well as the clay soil I mixed. I'm guessing that sand is coming to the top because I didn't have enough clay?

Coltonorr, I put down way too much topsoil. I put a 1.25" to 1.5" (if counting the plastic grate on bottom). My thinking at the time was that I'd need more because I was going to put a thick cap to lift my tank bed. Thinking is obviously not my forte.


----------



## michu

mistergreen,

That pleco was lucky not to be flushed last night, I was so darned tired of him tearing up my substrate. He went back in my son's tank with dire threats of death and destruction if he threw him back in my tank. He was a voracious algae eater though. I suspect I'll have algae problems now that he's gone.


----------



## AaronT

michu said:


> One of my angels look sickly tonight; so I checked my water params. pH off the charts. And by off the charts, I mean higher than the API test registers. I assume this to be due to the dolomite/soil since my water has a pH of 6.8.


Dolomite dissolves super slowly. That's the reason for using it. Did you change the substrate used over top of the soil? I've never had the pH swings a lot of people keep talking about.


----------



## mistergreen

michu said:


> As for the anaerobic issues, I did have massive bubbling when I tried to remove the mud last night, but the bubbles did not stink.
> 
> Coltonorr, I put down way too much topsoil. I put a 1.25" to 1.5" (if counting the plastic grate on bottom). My thinking at the time was that I'd need more because I was going to put a thick cap to lift my tank bed. Thinking is obviously not my forte.


Not all bubbles are bad.. That was probably CO2 bubbles from aerobic bacteria.

1.5" of soil is fine.


----------



## michu

mistergreen said:


> Not all bubbles are bad.. That was probably CO2 bubbles from aerobic bacteria.
> 
> 1.5" of soil is fine.


Could that CO2 be responsible for the rapid growth? I am amazed at how fast my plants were growing until I tore up my tank. Hopefully, I didn't destroy it all so badly that I dont' get back to the point I was. :/ The roots on the plants were amazing... to me anyway. I wasn't expecting so much root growth so quickly.

AaronT, the cap is the same as it was when I originally setup the tank... Black CQ.


----------



## AaronT

michu said:


> Could that CO2 be responsible for the rapid growth? I am amazed at how fast my plants were growing until I tore up my tank. Hopefully, I didn't destroy it all so badly that I dont' get back to the point I was. :/ The roots on the plants were amazing... to me anyway. I wasn't expecting so much root growth so quickly.
> 
> AaronT, the cap is the same as it was when I originally setup the tank... Black CQ.


The bubbles from the substrate can also be O2 as the roots will give off oxygen into the substrate during the day.

I've never used 1.5" of soil, but it shouldn't be the end of the world. I usually try to stick to 1" of soil just to be on the safe side. 

I suspect your pH swing may have been due to the pleco mentioned earlier digging up and exposing the soil too much. It could just be the soil you used too. That's the downside of this method is that no two soils are exactly the same.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

AaronT said:


> ...* It could just be the soil you used too. That's the downside of this method is that no two soils are exactly the same*.


Without knowing a lot about the method, this would be my guess. The same holds true for the Diana Walstad Natural Planted tank method. Choose the wrong soil and failure is inevitable IME.


----------



## Coltonorr

Aaron,
I have a question, I set my tank up about 1 1/2 weeks ago. I know I was supposed to get an initial burst of growth, which I did, then a little die back which I am in right now. How long does that die back last?
Also, my lighting is 2-36" fixtures at total of 8 t5ho 39watt bulbs. I run them from 3-10 with a 1hour burst from 5-6. Last night I upped the burst to 5-7. What do you think? 
I eventually want to run the lights from 2-11 with a 4 or 5 hour burst maybe even 6 depending on the growth.


----------



## mistergreen

Homer_Simpson said:


> Without knowing a lot about the method, this would be my guess. The same holds true for the Diana Walstad Natural Planted tank method. Choose the wrong soil and failure is inevitable IME.


it's pretty much like D walstad's method except the soil is 'washed/soaked' ahead of time to oxidize/mineralize a lot of the nutrients, makes soil safer for fish and lowers the risk of algae.



Coltonorr said:


> Aaron,
> I have a question, I set my tank up about 1 1/2 weeks ago. I know I was supposed to get an initial burst of growth, which I did, then a little die back which I am in right now. How long does that die back last?
> Also, my lighting is 2-36" fixtures at total of 8 t5ho 39watt bulbs. I run them from 3-10 with a 1hour burst from 5-6. Last night I upped the burst to 5-7. What do you think?
> I eventually want to run the lights from 2-11 with a 4 or 5 hour burst maybe even 6 depending on the growth.


If you're seeing die back, either lower your lights or start adding ferts & CO2.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

mistergreen said:


> it's pretty much like D walstad's method except the soil is 'washed/soaked' ahead of time to oxidize/mineralize a lot of the nutrients, makes soil safer for fish and lowers the risk of algae.



Yeah, that much I knew. My point was that given the unpredictability of soils as AaronT pointed out, the inadvertent choice of wrong soil may lead to failure. By not familiar, I meant I had not tried mineralized topsoil not that I did not not about the method. I have tried the Natural Planted tank method which proved a miserable failure, again likely because of the soil used.


----------



## michu

AaronT said:


> The bubbles from the substrate can also be O2 as the roots will give off oxygen into the substrate during the day.
> 
> I've never used 1.5" of soil, but it shouldn't be the end of the world. I usually try to stick to 1" of soil just to be on the safe side.
> 
> I suspect your pH swing may have been due to the pleco mentioned earlier digging up and exposing the soil too much. It could just be the soil you used too. That's the downside of this method is that no two soils are exactly the same.


Thanks AaronT. I'm hopeful that everything goes back to the way it was prior to the panic attack, the soul I started with was petty sorry so it is probably the culprit.


----------



## belladee

I have been reading this thread and want to try mineralized soil in my 75g I am setting up.

I have a question and figured id add it to this thread. 

If I have fish that kick up the substrate, such as cichlids, would this cause a problem with cloudyness in the tank? or would that cause any problems?
(i know about cichlids and plants )

I read in this thread to use a heavier cap suck as flourite but in the back 
they like to kick up all the way to the glass bottom.

thanks


----------



## AaronT

Coltonorr said:


> Aaron,
> I have a question, I set my tank up about 1 1/2 weeks ago. I know I was supposed to get an initial burst of growth, which I did, then a little die back which I am in right now. How long does that die back last?
> Also, my lighting is 2-36" fixtures at total of 8 t5ho 39watt bulbs. I run them from 3-10 with a 1hour burst from 5-6. Last night I upped the burst to 5-7. What do you think?
> I eventually want to run the lights from 2-11 with a 4 or 5 hour burst maybe even 6 depending on the growth.


You'll be fine upping the lighting. I usually start mine with an 8 hour day and a 3-4 hour noon burst of light. Granted at those lighting levels I'm assuming you are using some sort of CO2?

It takes a while for the roots to establish, maybe 4-5 weeks. After that you should see steady growth of the plants. Growth is about half as slow as water column dosing in some instances, but in my opinion that's a good thing. It means less trimming and the peak periods of a scape last longer.



> If I have fish that kick up the substrate, such as cichlids, would this cause a problem with cloudyness in the tank? or would that cause any problems?
> (i know about cichlids and plants )
> 
> I read in this thread to use a heavier cap suck as flourite but in the back
> they like to kick up all the way to the glass bottom.


In short, yes it does become a bit of an issue. I've kept Pelvicachromis species before and their digging does cause a little bit of a mess. If you keep it to one pair in a large tank it won't have much impact on water clarity.


----------



## Coltonorr

AaronT said:


> You'll be fine upping the lighting. I usually start mine with an 8 hour day and a 3-4 hour noon burst of light. Granted at those lighting levels I'm assuming you are using some sort of CO2?
> 
> It takes a while for the roots to establish, maybe 4-5 weeks. After that you should see steady growth of the plants. Growth is about half as slow as water column dosing in some instances, but in my opinion that's a good thing. It means less trimming and the peak periods of a scape last longer.



Thanks Aaron,
I should have clarified a little. The tank is injected with CO2, 2 diffusers at about 2-3 bubbles a second. I'm at approx. 30 ppm CO2

I figured a shorter photo period with a short burst would be good initially to keep green water/large algae out breaks to a minimum. I did increase to a 2 hour burst, maybe I will bump it up another hour.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Coltonorr said:


> I did increase to a 2 hour burst, maybe I will bump it up another hour.


Why? To many drastic changes too quickly Drew. What are you going to accomplish by jumping an extra hour in the burst. 

Let the plants acclimate. No need to start slamming light. Slow down. Large changes = Large problems. Small changes are the way to go brother!


----------



## Coltonorr

Your right Glenn,
The tops of the plants are doing well, new growth all over, but some of the leaves on the bottom are falling off. I figured its either the plants acclimating or not enough light.
My photoperiod right now is 7 hours with a 2 hour burst


----------



## illumnae

mistergreen said:


> who said equilibrium isn't helpful? and epson salt and equilibrium are not of the same chemical make up.


Thanks for the response  Basically I've been asking if equilibrium, being Mg and Ca and K, is a viable replacement for Potash + dolomite. The responses i've been getting is that since it's soluble, it's a bad replacement compared to the dolomite which releases the minerals slowly.

However, I was under the impression that epson salts and potash are also soluble yet epson salts are a recommended replacement and potash is, well, an original ingredient. Hence I was asking how come equilibrium is such a bad replacement, which noone actually answered  Nothing to do with the chemical make up, just the solubility of both


----------



## belladee

I have another question. Does this soil lower the PH? I know that SMS does and I think it it because of the clay so I am thinking that this may be the same.

I tried to search the thread but PH was too short of a search.

Thanks


----------



## Fish for Brains

I found this as a source of Potash:

http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/quick_sol_overview.html

It says it's an "enriched source of potassium" Potash 0-0-60 Guaranteed Analysis, 60% Soluble Potash (K2O)

Is this what I'm looking for? Any advice appreciated.


----------



## AaronT

illumnae said:


> Thanks for the response  Basically I've been asking if equilibrium, being Mg and Ca and K, is a viable replacement for Potash + dolomite. The responses i've been getting is that since it's soluble, it's a bad replacement compared to the dolomite which releases the minerals slowly.
> 
> However, I was under the impression that epson salts and potash are also soluble yet epson salts are a recommended replacement and potash is, well, an original ingredient. Hence I was asking how come equilibrium is such a bad replacement, which noone actually answered  Nothing to do with the chemical make up, just the solubility of both


The dolomite is best because of the slow release. The potash is soluble as you said and potassium will therefore need to be dosed in small quantities when it runs out.


----------



## AaronT

Fish for Brains said:


> I found this as a source of Potash:
> 
> http://www.espoma.com/p_consumer/quick_sol_overview.html
> 
> It says it's an "enriched source of potassium" Potash 0-0-60 Guaranteed Analysis, 60% Soluble Potash (K2O)
> 
> Is this what I'm looking for? Any advice appreciated.


You can always order some from www.oregonaqua.com


----------



## Fish for Brains

AaronT said:


> You can always order some from www.oregonaqua.com


Thanks for the link. The stuff I listed, I found at a local garden center, so was/am hopeful that it's the right stuff. It was less than $8 for a 5lb bag, but if there's any doubt about it being what I need, I'll return it and order from there.


----------



## AaronT

Fish for Brains said:


> Thanks for the link. The stuff I listed, I found at a local garden center, so was/am hopeful that it's the right stuff. It was less than $8 for a 5lb bag, but if there's any doubt about it being what I need, I'll return it and order from there.



It likely is fine.


----------



## aquasal

I'm glad to say that if this method works for me it's going to be awsome, since where i live ( outside the US ) i can't find the right ferts for my planted tanks and let's not talk about substrates. 
i'm doing the second drying of the top soil and i have already bought the red clay from a near market. 
Right now i'm into finding Muriate of potash and Dolomite. Besides that the top soil was really cheap... i bought 3 bags ( 20lb or 30lb each) for 0.75 cents each =P (you can't go cheaper than that unless you dig for it of course).

Also i had a question, after doing this and after a couple of months... i'm supposed to start giving ferts to the water column, but since i can't find anything good over here can you guide me or le me know how can i make a good diy fertilizer or at least what kind of products should i ve adding to the water to get better results?

Thanks


----------



## AaronT

aquasal said:


> I'm glad to say that if this method works for me it's going to be awsome, since where i live ( outside the US ) i can't find the right ferts for my planted tanks and let's not talk about substrates.
> i'm doing the second drying of the top soil and i have already bought the red clay from a near market.
> Right now i'm into finding Muriate of potash and Dolomite. Besides that the top soil was really cheap... i bought 3 bags ( 20lb or 30lb each) for 0.75 cents each =P (you can't go cheaper than that unless you dig for it of course).
> 
> Also i had a question, after doing this and after a couple of months... i'm supposed to start giving ferts to the water column, but since i can't find anything good over here can you guide me or le me know how can i make a good diy fertilizer or at least what kind of products should i ve adding to the water to get better results?
> 
> Thanks


The only fertilizer you ever need to use is potassium. You could just add potassium from the beginning and skip using the Muriate of Potash if you can't find any. Add 0.5 ppm per week and that should be all you need to add. 

I make my own solutions using potassium sulfate (K2SO4).


----------



## funkyfish

I’m very excited that I’m getting my MS.







It took me a while to decide which substrate to get but I think I’m making a right choice for my first planted tank. Now all I got to get is stuff to build my DIY CO2. 
I can’t wait now to start up my tank.


----------



## Minsc

After reading this thread, I am exited about this method. However, it was mentioned that this technique does not work with Tonina sp.
Is this always true? It seems like a fantastic way to grow plants, but if it places limits on what species will grow, that is a real deal breaker.


----------



## AaronT

Minsc said:


> After reading this thread, I am exited about this method. However, it was mentioned that this technique does not work with Tonina sp.
> Is this always true? It seems like a fantastic way to grow plants, but if it places limits on what species will grow, that is a real deal breaker.


Yes, it doesn't seem to work well with Tonina fluviatilis. 

A little off topic. There is only one Tonina species, Tonina fluviatilis. The rest are actually Syngonathus species, a very close relative of Tonina.


----------



## Coltonorr

Yes I tried T. fluviatilis and it did ok for the first few weeks but now doesn't look very good.
Most of my other plants are doing fantastic!

BTW does anyone keep LUDWIGIA INCLINATA VAR. VERTICILLATA 'CUBA' in their MS setup? Mine has done terrible and I ended up pulling it. I don't know if it was because it arrived in poor shape or because I wasn't giving it enough light...I have since increased my photoperiod and burst, but it was too late.


----------



## Minsc

AaronT said:


> Yes, it doesn't seem to work well with Tonina fluviatilis.
> 
> A little off topic. There is only one Tonina species, Tonina fluviatilis. The rest are actually Syngonathus species, a very close relative of Tonina.


Thanks. So my follow up question, how well do Syngonathus species fare?


----------



## funkyfish

And so that Im clear on this. I don't need to worry about any ferts for at least first 3-5 months? and after that I need to dose only a little bit of potassium? 

I'm planing to have some Ludwigia Repens, Java fern, Java moss, Anubias 'nana', Glosso. Elatinoides, Cryptocorine wilissii. My tank is 10 gallon so what other plants I can have, something that its easy for a begginer? I want to get some foreground cover plant and maybe some more background plants?


----------



## Coltonorr

funkyfish, 
some others may chime in here but, from what I understand, plants (Java fern, Anubias sp.) that feed from the water column may not do so well in MS, because those plants don't use there roots to feed. Instead they use their roots to adhere to things like driftwood. 
Again, not 100% on this but that is how I understand it.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

Coltonorr said:


> funkyfish,
> some others may chime in here but, from what I understand, plants (Java fern, Anubias sp.) that feed from the water column may not do so well in MS, because those plants don't use there roots to feed. Instead they use their roots to adhere to things like driftwood.
> Again, not 100% on this but that is how I understand it.


This is generally true, but I believe that fish stocking levels and tap water parameters(nitrates and phosphates) may also play a role if tap water is being used for water changes and frequent topoffs. Normally java ferns and anubias are not very needy. I have some java ferns in a 2 gallon betta vase with nothing more than one Betta. The Betta waste(nutrients released into the water column from it) and nutrients readded from the tap water(my tap water is very high in phosphates) with every water change is pretty much what the java fern has to draw on and so far(3 months) going no issues. It may be too early to tell though. With MS, you will also be dosing trace potassium into the water column so this should satisfy the requirement for potassium for the java fern and anubias if they end up in short supply.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Coltonorr said:


> Yes I tried T. fluviatilis and it did ok for the first few weeks but now doesn't look very good.
> Most of my other plants are doing fantastic!
> 
> BTW does anyone keep LUDWIGIA INCLINATA VAR. VERTICILLATA 'CUBA' in their MS setup? Mine has done terrible and I ended up pulling it. I don't know if it was because it arrived in poor shape or because I wasn't giving it enough light...I have since increased my photoperiod and burst, but it was too late.


I too have had a hard time keeping it.. but I have had it do well too. I think that the problem that I had was the brown algae that I had at the time the stems were trying to grow roots.. but also the ones that didn't do well were the ones that didn't arrive well due to the weather.. my own fault for ordering when I did

the only other plants that I have had trouble with are blyxa japonica and aubertii.. (maybe just bad plants from Glenn! LOL)


----------



## Coltonorr

LOL My B. japonica also has not done well. the new growth in the middle is almost white.

I'll try the 'cuba' again once the tank settles more and I can get some from club members, and not thru the mail.


----------



## funkyfish

Coltonorr said:


> funkyfish,
> some others may chime in here but, from what I understand, plants (Java fern, Anubias sp.) that feed from the water column may not do so well in MS, because those plants don't use there roots to feed. Instead they use their roots to adhere to things like driftwood.
> Again, not 100% on this but that is how I understand it.


So maybe it's a good idea for me to hold off on those two? But what other plants that I can get instead of them? Maybe dwarf hygrophila, some kind of crypto variety? I'm looking for some nice and easy bushy plant, any sugestions?


----------



## AaronT

Minsc said:


> Thanks. So my follow up question, how well do Syngonathus species fare?


Not well.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I grow anubias nana just fine in my tank. always see new growth. my father in law grows it insanely in his low tech tank.. 55gal with 54w of lighting, no ferts and no co2.

the plants will take in nutrients from waste and things like that.. they should do fine.


----------



## JDowns

Fluviatilis grows just fine for me in my setup. Less than 2wpg 16" off the water surface (HOT5's). 2"-4" a week. I do dose the water column though. High light is not a necessity, but good CO2 is. Slightly different mineralized soil, but there shouldn't be any reason why this recipe couldn't support this species IMHO.


----------



## ingg

Java Ferns, Anubias, and mosses do just fine.

I grow Cuba just fine, sold some recently and the guy was amazed at the plants - grows just like Stellata did for me, big fat stems, good growth, and good color.

I've never gotten trimmed specimens of any Tonina or Syngonathus to do well. They hang on for a while then waste away. 

Blyxa slowly wastes away once it grows - darndest thing I've ever seen. Worked great, gets tall, poof gone.

I now have Eriocaulum Cinereum growing and seeming to do well, though growing slowly.


I'd love to get rooted samples of Tonina and see how it does....


----------



## Minsc

ingg said:


> I now have Eriocaulum Cinereum growing and seeming to do well, though growing slowly.
> I'd love to get rooted samples of Tonina and see how it does....


I would imagine Erios would thrive in a soil substrate, with their large root systems. I do know someone locally who is growing Erio 'mini' successfully in a river silt substrate, no dosing.

You may want to experiment with a Syngonathus that frequently puts out new stems from the base of the plant, such as 'Lago Grande'. Otherwise the experiment might be over very quickly:wink:


----------



## AaronT

JDowns said:


> Fluviatilis grows just fine for me in my setup. Less than 2wpg 16" off the water surface (HOT5's). 2"-4" a week. I do dose the water column though. High light is not a necessity, but good CO2 is. Slightly different mineralized soil, but there shouldn't be any reason why this recipe couldn't support this species IMHO.


Nice plants. I'm curious how you changed the recipe? What are you dosing in addition to your recipe?


----------



## JDowns

I used wormcastings boiled instead of soil. Mixed 2.5:1 Zeosand with the castings with powdered clay (Barnard Slip). Handful per sqft peat, 1tbsp per sqft Osmocote Plus sprinkled on the bottom and a 1-2" cap of Zeosand. No additional K to the soil since there is no indication that plants uptake K from the roots, also no additional Ca or Mg since RO is reconstituted with GH booster, and the clay and wormcastings already have those nutrients. I dose the water column so the plants have the luxury of the nutrients in both the soil and the water column.

A nutrient rich soil is a nutrient rich soil, whether it be castings, garden soil, AS, etc. The only differences that I can see that may be why others fail with this species would be OM content, or not dosing the water column.


----------



## AaronT

JDowns said:


> I used wormcastings boiled instead of soil. Mixed 2.5:1 Zeosand with the castings with powdered clay (Barnard Slip). Handful per sqft peat, 1tbsp per sqft Osmocote Plus sprinkled on the bottom and a 1-2" cap of Zeosand. No additional K to the soil since there is no indication that plants uptake K from the roots, also no additional Ca or Mg since RO is reconstituted with GH booster, and the clay and wormcastings already have those nutrients. I dose the water column so the plants have the luxury of the nutrients in both the soil and the water column.
> 
> A nutrient rich soil is a nutrient rich soil, whether it be castings, garden soil, AS, etc. The only differences that I can see that may be why others fail with this species would be OM content, or not dosing the water column.



Interesting approach. If plants can't uptake K from their roots how to terrestrial plants survive or emergent aquatics for that matter? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely curious.


----------



## JDowns

I know Tom has stated more then a few times he hasn't seen any studies that indicate K+ is utilized via the sediment. It may leach from the soil to the water column where it is utilized. 

If I've misconstrued Tom's comments on this I'm sure he'll jump on me quick enough and correct the statement.

But this would correlate fairly well as to why ADA doses K consistently with AS. Also why others with mineralized soils tend to start dosing K.


----------



## smoq

JDowns said:


> I used wormcastings boiled instead of soil. Mixed 2.5:1 Zeosand with the castings with powdered clay (Barnard Slip). Handful per sqft peat, 1tbsp per sqft Osmocote Plus sprinkled on the bottom and a 1-2" cap of Zeosand. No additional K to the soil since there is no indication that plants uptake K from the roots, also no additional Ca or Mg since RO is reconstituted with GH booster, and the clay and wormcastings already have those nutrients. I dose the water column so the plants have the luxury of the nutrients in both the soil and the water column.
> 
> A nutrient rich soil is a nutrient rich soil, whether it be castings, garden soil, AS, etc. The only differences that I can see that may be why others fail with this species would be OM content, or not dosing the water column.


You don't have to mineralize wormcastings, correct?
And what do you think about this http://www.wormpower.net/worm-castings/product_info.php?products_id=94


----------



## AaronT

JDowns said:


> But this would correlate fairly well as to why ADA doses K consistently with AS. Also why others with mineralized soils tend to start dosing K.


Those using straight Aquasoil dose K because none is available in the Aquasoil. Those dosing K with mineralized soil are doing so only after the added Muriate of Potash has run out. Whether or not the muriate of potash slowly leaks into the water column is hard to say. I do know that the plants themselves release nutrients into the water column. This is much of what allows epiphytes to grow well when using mineralized soil. 

Granted I've never done any scientific studies on the subject, but my deductive reasoning skills tell me that the plants must be able to take up K through their roots in some capacity. The vast majority of the plants we use in the hobby are found growing emergent or even just in very wet soil along the shores of bodies of water. K is a macro nutrient that would need to be used by those same plants.


----------



## JDowns

AaronT said:


> Those using straight Aquasoil dose K because none is available in the Aquasoil. Those dosing K with mineralized soil are doing so only after the added Muriate of Potash has run out. Whether or not the muriate of potash slowly leaks into the water column is hard to say. I do know that the plants themselves release nutrients into the water column. This is much of what allows epiphytes to grow well when using mineralized soil.
> 
> Granted I've never done any scientific studies on the subject, but my deductive reasoning skills tell me that the plants must be able to take up K through their roots in some capacity. The vast majority of the plants we use in the hobby are found growing emergent or even just in very wet soil along the shores of bodies of water. K is a macro nutrient that would need to be used by those same plants.





Plantbrain said:


> A far as K_+, do not bother adding it to sediment.
> I've not seen any research suggesting it's can be bound nor mobilized well.


 source



Plantbain said:


> The K2SO4 can be "folded" into the clay manually and it'll stay put relatively well, but roots just do not take up K+ from sediments in any study I've seen. Ask any Aquatic Botany person and they will all say the water column virtally without exception. It might diffuse out slowly, but this lacks any control.


 source


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

worm castings will need to be boiled for 10-15 minutes..


Ingg.. my stellatus grows insanely thick stems.. I need to get cuba from you! I think that the cuba that I got ended up bad because of the weather.


----------



## Coltonorr

x2 on the Cuba...mine went bye bye


----------



## AaronT

It still doesn't answer my question how those same plants uptake K when growing emergent. It has to be through the roots.


----------



## ingg

JDowns, then how are plants that are submersed for only part of (or none of) the season getting K, osmosis from the air or something? 

Logic says it has to happen from the sediment. As many, if not most, of the plants we keep are not underwater 365 days a year, well..... 

Erased the rest, as I went off on quite a tangent - short version, go ahead, EI dose, waste the money on ferts and water and more lights and more CO2... and come and tell us how it works out. I'm sure it can be made to work, I am just not real sure why you would bother....  

I'll stick to tiny water changes, no cost on ferts, and not having to either stand over my tank(s!!!) every night with a dropper or spending tons on autodosing, myself.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

the logic to still dosing makes sense from what I got from Tom. It makes it so that you don't use up the nutrients in the topsoil as quickly. other than that.. I don't know either. I never understood any of the chemistry of dosing. I used the EI method prior to the topsoil. I have had great results with just the topsoil.. the only thing that I have bad going on is the lower leaves melting. I also just got the flow upped considerably so that there are no dead spots in the tank. I hope this helps me out. I do have some brown algae on the leaves too.. the easily wiped off algae. I don't know what to do about it.. I am going to wait and see what happens with the upped flow. I am going to redo the tank in a few weeks changing out to 3m colorquartz sand.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

I guess the issue is not whether dosing the water column will do harm or be of benefit but whether it is necessary. It is not a secret that I am a strong follower of Tom Barr and tend to test what he says and draw my own conclusions. I have yet to see a situation/method/experiment where I tried what he said and it turned out to be wrong.

Now fast forward and having said that. I have always said that you cannot dispute outcomes. You can tell someone, hey according to Tom Barr, what you are doing is wrong and you are asking for trouble when you observe their tanks in person and see the results. Take this German guy that I buy plants from who has a aquarium plant grow op out of his basement. I attended his home for the first time about a month ago and saw his tanks. He has been growing plants for 20+ years in Germany and what he was doing was a hobby and spare cash. He was retired. His tanks had been running for 2+ years, 100% algae free, fluorite substrate, excellent plant growth(no signs of any deficiencies that I could see). We got to talking and out of curiosity I bought his custom made C02 reactor that he was bragging about. I was skeptical but thought what the heck. Biggest mistake I ever made. Ever since using his reactor, plant growth in my 40 gallon exploded. And I have had difficulty keeping up with the trimming given how quickly the plants are growing. I dose EI in that tank. Today, I bought some more plants from him and asked him about what he dosing for ferts. I was surprised by his answer. Nothing but iron, not even potassium. He told me the secret to why his tanks were doing so well for so long and continued to do so well(this is something he had been doing all his years of keeping plants), was the combo of good lighting, pressurized c02, and fully stocked tanks(some of his tanks looked ovestocked but he was not suffering from Blue Green Algae and was not suffering massive fish die off; all his fish appeared active and healthy and some had fry). He told me that he did not believe in heavy fertilization and felt that it was un-necessary with a fully stocked tank, good light, and sufficient c02.

What is my point? I have seen people with excellent planted tanks who followed EI and had decent lighting and pressurized c02 and I have seen people with equally excellent planted tanks who did not follow EI and had fully stocked tanks, decent lighting, and pressurized c02. Bottom line, based on what I have seen, there is no wrong or right, just different methods which will yield comparable results.

P.S.: I won't say anything good or bad about mineralized topsoil until I try it for myself and see the results.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I am not arguing that there are many different results from different methods. my father in law doses nothing.. no co2 and low light and grows the hell out of crypts, anubias, e vesuvius, tiger lotus.. such plants as those. I dosed the ei method which worked.. but became tiresome with water changes weekly. I switched to the topsoil because of the benefit of the plants taking up the nutrients from the sediment and the lack of dosing. It has worked out for me well.. the only issue I have had is the leaves melting on my limno A.. which happens even if you look at that plant wrong.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> It still doesn't answer my question how those same plants uptake K when growing emergent. It has to be through the roots.


Bulk movement of water via the xlyem. In the submersed condition, there's no transpiration occurring, so little is translocated even if present in the soil.


So no uptake occurs via roots really for K+, most plants can take up K+ via the leaves/stems, this is true for all plants, not just aquatics.

The article that's most cited is Barko's:

http://en.scientificcommons.org/18398537

Still, we know that N and P also can be supplied via the water column as well.
It depends on the system.
Cedergreen and Madsen shown that even when roots where cut off, for 3 species, the growth rates remained the same for macro nutrients, suggesting no impact as long as the water column is non limiting.

Most submersed researchers already know that aquatic plants are simply opportunistic, as long as it's non limiting, *where* the nutrients are is of little concern. Hobbyists often bicker over this, but not the researchers.

I think that is true for many things.:redface:
Knowing enough to get in trouble, but not enough to see the big picture or the dependence of other variables is often an issue.

I'd stick with Liebig's Law of the Minimum, and consider both sediments and water column at the sum total of nutrients, not just one vs the other.

Here's Cederegreen's/Madsen:

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118946813/abstract

They also cite and address Barko's past research, as it's 15-20 years later.

My take is that of most submersed plant researchers:
Add to both locations, this way you get extended use, stability, resiliency, performance, efficacy etc.........however you wanna say it, from both sources and rely less one just one source.

In container Horticulture of ornamental plants, they use fertigation and sand and bark for the sediment. So they use KNO3, KH2PO4, Traces, GH etc and apply to the leaves and root zones. This is much like hydroponics but hits all the organs available for uptake.

And that's for the terrestrial systems/plants!

But the sediment will last longer if you provide non limiting nutrients to the water column. Likewise, you get a lot more from a rich sediment than just a water column alone.

As far as plants go, this provides the best solution for aquarist. For ornamental terrestrial plants, due to pest in soil, the fertigation works best, for farmers, the cost for soil ferts is weighed more heavily mostly. Or they fallow/rotate crops with Alfalfa, vetch etc for silage etc. 

They have trade offs we really do not. Some claim algae, but that's poppycock and easily disproven and has been for over a decade now.

So it gets down to what is the easier way to provide non limiting is nutrients that's user friendly.

Terrestrial systems have a strong transpirational negative pressure, that is lacking in aquatic species. So some nutrients appear to be fixed in the roots and then translocated to the upper stems/leaves etc, whereas some, are often non limiting in the water column(K+, Ca, Mg, SO4 etc).

N, P, Fe are typically limiting in the water column, so they have adapted methods to get it(Phloem transport etc), they can provide some of the K, Ca, etc...........but these are not issues for submersed plants.

But if you do not have to do all that, and can just take up it for "free" with transpiration...why bother? 

Likewise, why bother with any transport if the nutrient is in both the root zone and in the water column surrounding the leaves?

That would give the best of both worlds.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Homer_Simpson said:


> What is my point? I have seen people with excellent planted tanks who followed EI and had decent lighting and pressurized c02 and I have seen people with equally excellent planted tanks who did not follow EI and had fully stocked tanks, decent lighting, and pressurized c02. Bottom line, based on what I have seen, there is no wrong or right, just different methods which will yield comparable results.
> 
> P.S.: I won't say anything good or bad about mineralized topsoil until I try it for myself and see the results.


Well, we do not know nor can compare things like the light intensity, the CO2 ppm's, accurately, and how much fish waste is coming from the system, these all play into it.

Plants all grow for the same reasons.
The only thing that changes is the rates at which they grow.

Whether you dose via fish, KNO3, soil makes little difference.

Some seem to think it does.
As long as the rates of nutrients for a given rate of growth is supplied, things should be fine.

What drives the rates of growth?
Light firstly, then CO2..........and then, lastly, nutrients...........

You all seem to be focus on the differences here between methods, this is not the way to go about this. These methods have a lot more in common that they are different.

As far as user issues/human issues, for convenience, soil works well, then fish and lastly dosing the water column, but the other 2 also make dosing the water column much easier.............:thumbsup:

Some folk's tap is loaded with PO4 also.
ADA's tap they use has 0.5ppm according to them.

50% weekly water changes?
Then that is adding a fair amount.

Whether you honestly think less is really better, you also need to address where "that less" is. Water column or sediment, it makes little difference.

Some seem to think that less in the water column is some cure for algae, better, a reason not to do water changes........... however this has never been demonstrated, not even once.

Whether I decide to set and maintain 30ppm of NO3, or 5ppm NO3, it does not imply I should do a water change, as long as that is my set point.

I can dose and maintain 30ppm and not do a water change. Likewise, I can do the same for say 10ppm of NO3.

Having a richer target does not imply the requirement for a water change!
I've heard that crap for a long time and it's not true.

The water change is only about maintaining a set point with out using test kits. Test kits when used correctly, can help adjust doing to avoid water changes.

EI just gives a justification for not using test kits by using the trade off with water changes. It's not better or worse that not doing water changes, nor more or less "advanced".

EI and the article I wrote long before that gave a newer set of target parameters than PMDD, whether you use water changes or test kits to hit those is really up to you (PMDD and my older articles both stated this clearly), but both routines can and do work.

I'm not sure why some BS about not using test kits(I've never said you cannot use them to target a set level which is clearly outlined in the article and the older article going back to the mid 1990's) with a need/requirement for a water change. Heck, I've gone weeks without water changes also. I know when I need to do one.

Also, there's a 3rd option here.
Use the plants to judge when to dose, add ferts etc, do a water change etc.

Takes more experience, but it certainly less trouble than these other two methods:icon_roll

But naw.............some clowns think I'm a one trick pony:icon_eek:

Why not go full non CO2 if these goals are really the issue?
Then the rate has been reduced and the effort is also reduced.

You can go either way with the location of the nutrients, or better yet both/all three( includes fish).



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## filipem

What in interesting thread. 

I did not see anything mentioned about using this soil for a dry start method. 

Has anyone tried a dry start with this substrate yet?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

filipem said:


> What in interesting thread.
> 
> I did not see anything mentioned about using this soil for a dry start method.
> 
> Has anyone tried a dry start with this substrate yet?


Dude, it has successfully been done as recommended by Tom Barr
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...ion/52332-new-method-start-up-algae-free.html

Somone in that thread tried Miracle Grow Organic Choice and suffered the consequences by ending up with major ammonia spikes after flooding the tank even though plant growth was well established.

*SCMurphy has successfully set up tanks with the dry start method using mineralized topsoil.*

Most people with the dry start method have the most success using ADA Aquasoil.

However, leonardite capped with Fluorite Black Sand also works well as long as you use fertilizer in the water that you wet the substrate in as this person found.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...50619-experiment-emersed-dwarf-hairgrass.html


----------



## filipem

Thanks Homer.

ADA aquasoil is not an option for me because of where I live. 

Thanks for the links.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

filipem said:


> Thanks Homer.
> 
> ADA aquasoil is not an option for me because of where I live.
> 
> Thanks for the links.


You are welcome. Without trying it, I think mineralized topsoil would work well for you. Since the soil is mineralized, ammonia is going to be a non-issue once you flood the tank and even if it is and you add some floaters you should be fine. Another thing that you can monkey around with is earth worm castings boiled for 15 minutes and mixed with sand. You can probably get earthworm castings cheap from gardening centres or hydroponic stores. The earthworm castings would already be mineralized so you don't have to go through the time and effort of mineralizing topsoil.


----------



## plantbrain

filipem said:


> What in interesting thread.
> 
> I did not see anything mentioned about using this soil for a dry start method.
> 
> Has anyone tried a dry start with this substrate yet?


Yes, that's what started the method.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I am thinking of trying the worm castings. will it basically have the same results as the topsoil?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

plantbrain said:


> ...Also, there's a 3rd option here.
> Use the plants to judge when to dose, add ferts etc, do a water change etc.
> 
> Takes more experience, but it certainly less trouble than these other two methods:icon_roll


I think that is what the German guy I mentioned does. He probably has it down to an art given all the years he has under his belt growing aquarium plants. 



plantbrain said:


> But naw.............some clowns think I'm a one trick pony:icon_eek:


Okay, I admit it I am a clown. 100% no joke. But I never ever thought of you as a one trick pony. If it wasn't for your help and recommendations, I would still be struggling with my 40 gallon planted tank. And quite honestly I don't even what the heck a "one trick pony is anyway?" What the frak is a "one trick pony?"

***Edit: Never mind. I now understand what a one trick pony means based on what is stated here: http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-one-trick-pony.htm

FWIW, based on the stated definition, I never considered you a "one trick pony."


----------



## plantbrain

Someone who has only one trick, method etc.
They cannot do other methods, they only master one method.

As we all know, not every method will meet every goal, so knowing only one and trying to suggets it's the best for everyone else is a bit ridiculuous.

You have to ask each person what the trade offs are they have and want.
Sediment ferts are good trade off for perhaps 90% of folks.

Why more do not use it?
I'm not sure.

But it does not imply that you also do not use water column ferts either.
Or that it's "better for plants", reduces algae directly (perhaps if you had not been dosing enough to begin with, too lean etc).

This latter point is the issue, folks get giddy, then the brain falls out.
While good and very reasonable on one point, you have to be consistent.

This hobby is not about waste, if so, none of us would have aquariums.
That argument is a joke.

It's about labor and our own bad habits.

This method helps on each point.
It also helps water column dosing.
Which in turn helps extend the results and life of the sediment.

Both good trade offs for most any goal, particularly if you use CO2.

Heck, I do EI and then tweak, but I also use nutrient rich sediments(ADA in my case). At the lab, all the pots are soil clay. 

INGG said this however:



> short version, go ahead, EI dose, waste the money on ferts


It's *not* waste, it reduces the demand and thereby extends the life of sediment. You can reduce % water changes down to what ever you like, use test kits and dose accordingly. The suggested ranges I and others have said been there since 1996 on line:thumbsup:
Never said otherwise.
Paul Sears and Kevin posted theirs even eariler.
Gerloff suggested this same type of routine dating back to the 1960's. 



> and water


This is a trade off for testing, which is *technically waste as well*, both in $ and environmental reagents which I'm sure 99.99% of the hobbyists dump down the drain, not take to the hazmat, like paint, FL bulbs etc. Water change can be used for landscape, which I use it for(reuse). You can also use a "smaller" aquarium if this is honestly, about "waste and excess"

But this is not really about honesty and waste?
Aquariums are in fact... a luxury item.
Should we not even keep them at all?
Or if so, only a certain size?
You pull the ethics card and you end up becoming the very ironic thing you claim to be against.

How far do you rationalize this and go with this idea about waste?
There's some cognitive dissonance here.
You are not going to get away from that.



> and more lights and more CO2... and come and tell us how it works out. I'm sure it can be made to work, I am just not real sure why you would bother....


So you support the non CO2 method and no water changes or test kits, only and that the rest of the folks are "wasting"? If you accept having aquariums, planted etc, then this is the best solution, if...........a sustainable method is your goal which is what your logic here is suggesting.

So "why bother" using CO2 at all? Entertain us.



> I'll stick to tiny water changes, no cost on ferts, and not having to either stand over my tank(s!!!) every night with a dropper or spending tons on autodosing, myself.


I sure do not do this.
My ferts are essentially "free" relatively to my wallet.
I feed my fish daily, but that's about it, once a week, I clean and change the water, water to the landscape(using 10X less water to do so than anyone on my block). Adding ferts takes me about 15 sec, the same horrible laborious time it takes(actually less), that it does to feed my fish.

Fish are too hard to feed, I should have an autofeeder too?
Get real.

Pruning is managed easily by reduction in the light. The tank is light "limited" which is where all growth starts, not with nutrients. 

That's backwards and waste far more $$$ than water changes and the cost of ferts. Think about it. And if you have a goal for less is better, it makes the most sense to start there. Logically, that's what common sense and understanding how a plant grows would tell you.

I rationalize my CO2/ferts/water changes/Aquariums easily.
1. I can afford them, (anyone here apparently can).
2. CO2 allows more species to grow and to propagate at higher rates
3. Ferts provide non limiting growth, no need to monkey with test kits
4. Water the landscape is required, easy and fast, makes working on the tank easy
5. I like aquariums so I choose to have 5 nice tanks

If I cared about the environment so much and honestly felt I should give up conveniences, I would not own a computer, aquarium, TV etc.

Clearly........ anyone here has not gone that far.
Folks don't go too far one way or the other is the point. Suggesting this type of absolution is flawed logic.

It's a trade off.
You cut waste, reduce labor where you want and for your goals. You can go many ways here, but it does not mean anyone is "right". 

If your goal is about reduced labor, then no testing, no water change, reduce light, non CO2 and reduced pruning/better plant choice etc should be considered in the trade offs. It's not just one thing nor a method of dosing certainly.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

Torpedobarb said:


> I am thinking of trying the worm castings. will it basically have the same results as the topsoil?


Likely close, but have a less nutrients.
Clay helps to bind and keep the nutrients over time better I think.
Roots can get at the nutrients inside the protected clay grains/layers etc, vs having them wash away in non bound sediment materials(provided roots are actively growing- CO2/nutrient issues play a role there etc).

Osmocoat works also. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## lovingHDTV

If I wanted to use mineralized soil for my next tank, can I find it along a river or lake? From the description of making it, I would think that the sandy like soil along the edge of a river or lake would be mineralized (many wet dry cycles) wouldn't it?

I could easily go get 5 or 10 gallons of that stuff on the way home from work. Would this work?

Additionally if you choose to not dose ferts, how long does the soil last? I know that it depends on how much you got growing and the rate of at which the nutrients are used, I'm just looking for a ball park number? 6months, a year, 10 years?

thanks,


----------



## smoq

plantbrain said:


> Likely close, but have a less nutrients.
> Clay helps to bind and keep the nutrients over time better I think.
> Roots can get at the nutrients inside the protected clay grains/layers etc, vs having them wash away in non bound sediment materials(provided roots are actively growing- CO2/nutrient issues play a role there etc).
> 
> Osmocoat works also.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


 What about if we follow all the steps of the mineralized topsoil method, but instead of mineralizing the soil we use worm castings?


----------



## ingg

lovingHDTV said:


> If I wanted to use mineralized soil for my next tank, can I find it along a river or lake? From the description of making it, I would think that the sandy like soil along the edge of a river or lake would be mineralized (many wet dry cycles) wouldn't it?
> 
> I could easily go get 5 or 10 gallons of that stuff on the way home from work. Would this work?
> 
> Additionally if you choose to not dose ferts, how long does the soil last? I know that it depends on how much you got growing and the rate of at which the nutrients are used, I'm just looking for a ball park number? 6months, a year, 10 years?
> 
> thanks,


First, I would say yes. I'm not quite sure which or what Tom is referring to as being used for dry start methods (there are tons of variants of soil methods), but the mineralized soil method I know was created by SCMurphy, and was some project study work (I believe for his degree many moons ago) done to emulate soils (tweaked for an aquarium use, of course) found in local waterways if I'm not mistaken.

The longevity comments have kind of cracked me up - just because the oldest mineralized soil tank I know of inside our club has been up and actively running for many years (I *believe* it has been up 8+ years, might be off a year or two one way or the other)... and is still going, going... Energizer bunny eat your heart out! BTW, the tank STILL isn't dosed. 


It'd be the 125g shown here:

http://gwapa.org/wordpress/2009/01/january-2009-meeting/#more-366


----------



## JDowns

ingg said:


> The longevity comments have kind of cracked me up - just because the oldest mineralized soil tank I know of inside our club has been up and actively running for many years (I *believe* it has been up 8+ years, might be off a year or two one way or the other)... and is still going, going... Energizer bunny eat your heart out! BTW, the tank STILL isn't dosed.


Based on the information here



> Viktor described his technique, which does not include heavy dosing, CO2, or frequent water changes. Instead, he manages to use low fish loads and undemanding plants to create beautiful tanks without a lot of the effort that comes with high-tech tanks


So you essentially have an "El Natural" type of approach. With no CO2 and lower lighting it would not surprise me the longevity of the substrate. We also cannot discount fish waste. But lets not confuse two different type of approaches, non CO2 and CO2 enrichment. A non CO2 approach is going to greatly extend the longetivity of a nutrient rich substrate. Start adding CO2 and higher light levels and that longevity is bound to be reduced.


----------



## plantbrain

These are non CO2 systems and you can see the low light on the tanks. This is hardly "new", and Viktor is commended for using the methods in these days of CO2 junkies. Here's some examples of non CO2 without any sediment based ferts after 2 years, just some light water column ferts, no test kits, or any water changes:










Here's one of the nano's I did for 10 months without a water change:









Onyx sand only, the other is plain sand.
Both are also gardened and scaped. Both get about 1/10th or less what an EI dosed tank get, generally less. No testing. Not one water change. 
This method can last longer as far as supply, than any sediment. Very easy to do also, once a week light dosing and no trouble at all. Like feeding fish, which is more labor than the dosing method I suggested some years back for non CO2 on my web site. Either method easily suipplies the nutrients, the location is no issue. But adding them together yields excellent if not better results. Which has been my point all along.

There are many examples of Viktor's tanks and similar on the web. 
The rate of growth and the species are dependent, strong competition for CO2 between plants often determines what the owner can/will grow.
I've seen many non CO2 planted tanks like his.
With and *without soil substrates*.....so......the logic does not follow or support the claim.

Fish and recycling of plant decay add new growth/nutrients, *the tank is dosed via fish food.* So there are nutrients coming in, they where just (conveniently?) overlooked, they are important/matter with this method much more than at high CO2/light rates of growth. Input = output.

Perhaps some do not consider fish food as a nutrient source?
I guess if you overlook that:icon_roll

The rate is much slower than say my tank here:









But that's the trade off, for the higher rates of growth, you need more light, more CO2 and more nutrients.

As you reduce the rate of growth down, you can get away with less, use one starting type of nutrient source(water column or sediment, or........a wise person would chose both- which has been my point all along and not one person has offered any good retort as to why that is not the case or worse/bad etc), but the reality is that over time, the sediment depletes in fertility and the water column is adding the lion's share, this works particularly well, much better in fact at lower growth rates. This is true, if not more so for ADA since they use CO2. I can and have demonstrated depeletion over time in higher growth rates for ADA AS. I've shown it for sediment alone as well as for the water column, for higher light/CO2, for non CO2 methods and variations in between.

I added some new vs old(16 months) ADA AS using the DSM, which isolates all nutrients to the sediment(and CO2 is non limiting/independent), you can clearly see where the new sediment has awesome rapid growth, where the older sediment is slower growth, but about 10x slower(This confers with data from the ADA As test I did). I used the old sediment because I wanted to seed the bacteria. Sort of wish I hadn't . But once the tank is flooded, the water column will mix the nutrients around and I should get good growth all over as well as a water column source.


At higher light/CO2, the draw from sediments or the water column will be much higher. This is common sense. You used/choose the slowest method, which can easily meet the demands of a fish waste only for nutrients, which is the worst support you could use to make the point and hardest to show nutrients are only coming from the sediments alone.

A wise test would use the highest level of light, highest CO2, and then isolate the nutrient source. Do many large RO water changes, adding no fish etc.

Then.............you can compare sediment fertility much faster and see growth rate issues without any other dependent confounding variables. That's how chose the targets for EI, this way I make sure that for all levels (a much wider target of hobbyist) of light and CO2 (choose a very high level of both), there will be ample nutrient supply and can then estimate how long I can go between dosing, how long a sediment last etc.

Those are very relevant questions that can and/or have been answered for sediments or water column and skews the results to apply to all methods and light, CO2 etc. Not the slowest non CO2 growth method there is, that's the worst example to use for justification for this method to be used broadly for all methods using higher rates of growth.

You need to start at the other end if your goal is looking at nutrient depeletion over time. you also need to test how fertile the sediment is to begin with, something you, nor any of the other folks have done, nor appear to have the methods to do so. Anyone can test water, whoopee, does not answer how much nutrient is in the sediment/supply, limiting nutrient availability to the plants.

For slower rates of growth, you do not need to dose as frequently, but as long as the target ranges, even if quite high, are maintained(don't move around too much), there's *no risk*. Some seem to suggest otherwise and without any evidence(scare mongering). I can have high nutrients in any system. In the soil/ADA/loam clay sediment, you always (unless depeleted over time) have rich nutrients regardless of the what is above.

That is the inherent advantage. 
My point going back 15 years has been similar with the water column(rich non limiting amount). The same logic is applied here as well for sediment. 
Sediments last longer and take less tending.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## plantbrain

JDowns said:


> Start adding CO2 and higher light levels and that longevity is bound to be reduced.


So if you where to chose a test to see, which type of method would you use?
Low light, nutrient rich tap water?

Or high light, pure water/lots of water changes(gets rid of the water column ferts), high CO2, (drives the rates of growth 10-20X faster), very fast growing species that are highly sensitive to changes?
Also, which method would you likely see more significant results if your hypothesis was supported? which test would take longer, a non CO2 tank or a high light/CO2 enriched system before you saw differences?

soil sediments have been used for many years on many types of systems, mostly non CO2, until recently. ADA is similar, but the brand name costlier version. DIY soil is a good ALTERNATIVE. But........we may want to know and have methods to measure the nutrient content and do replacement test over time, without having to disturb and tear the tank down also.

Mud cubes are one way.
Pore water is another.
Sediment test is a 3rd way.
There are other ways like tissue analysis for N and P, Fe etc, but that might be a bit much for hobbyist to bite off. 
Growth rate differences/dry weights perhaps the same issue.
O2 evolution is a good method for hobbyists though.

DIY adds a lot of variation to the content and total nutrient load.
Initially, the nutrients are far richer than the richest water column dosing.

But over time, this drains, and it will drain more/less for different folks.
It will not be the same for each sediment or person. So caution should be used when making such assumptions.

You can test these things to confirm, then fairly compare.
Also, light, CO2, species used etc, can be of help and importance.

Folks claim they wanna learn, well there's some common sense issues. So get learning.:redface:
Where's my "teaching" whip? hehe

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## AaronT

ingg said:


> The longevity comments have kind of cracked me up - just because the oldest mineralized soil tank I know of inside our club has been up and actively running for many years (I *believe* it has been up 8+ years, might be off a year or two one way or the other)... and is still going, going... Energizer bunny eat your heart out! BTW, the tank STILL isn't dosed.


Actually, he has a tank that has been running with no dosing for more like 20 years.


----------



## AaronT

JDowns said:


> Based on the information here


Right, but the only limited nutrient is potassium. Other than that it should last decades with only minimal potassium dosing. And if you go away for a week or just forget about the potassium for a week it's not biggie and the tank plugs along still.


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> Right, but the only limited nutrient is potassium. Other than that it should last decades with only minimal potassium dosing. And if you go away for a week or just forget about the potassium for a week it's not biggie and the tank plugs along still.


Well, this is predictable. 

What is not, is when the rates of growth are increased using CO2/and more light. These systems are not comparable because they are not independent based on the soil sediment alone.

Still,1-20-100 years etc, does not matter as the balance between rate of growth and nutrients is maintained easily by a slow rate of growth and fish waste inputs, a little K+ once in awhile etc. This balance has much less to do with the sediment and it's contribution to growth, which was the point. 

If a nice slow method is all you are after, then non CO2 is great, but you can go either way sediments and water column dosing, or both ways at the same time, which seems the wisest path. The same philosophy also applies to CO2 enriched systems. Like adding some K+ here and there, the same can be done without soil and using KNO3, KH2PO4, see above examples. So if it's just soil that's so great and doing this, how come we can do it with inert sediment types as well? The labor is the same. I can skip a week etc, takes 10 sec to dose. Fish are more hassle.

How do you tell which source is doing what?
Leaching into the water column occurs, particularly in the start.

How do you test the sediment that's 20 years old for N, P etc?
They do not sell test kits for sediment at the LFS.

Mud ice cubes inserted etc can tell in local regions, these can be added to see and test. Some leaching will occur, but you should be able to see local differences in growth if the system is depleted and limited. Many have used Jobes sticks etc. These can be amended to test specific nutrients also, adding K+ in clay or N, P etc. Then added. Agar can be used and mix in the nutrient salt for slow diffusion.

All stuff aquarist can and may do to make some simple test to answer such questions. Then you can answer the question of depletion and contribution somewhat.

General principles explain far more than multiple, seemingly different "conflicting methods". That's the goal in getting a better understanding: the why and the how. Without any comparative test/examples, such information does not tell you much information. You can say that person's method works for them and looks nice etc, but it offers little predictive value without a reference and understanding of the system. Much like the theory about PO4 limitation and algae. It was very poor at prediction/falsified, but it still "worked", but not for the reason that many assumed.

Same deal above with the sediment.

It might not be the sediment at all. I have examples without soil sediment that last for years also with easy minimal dosing too. 

Here's another:









By comparing both, you get a good feeling for each and then can see the utility in combining both methods to complement the other. Most of the discussion here has not been about isolating the factors(say water column vs sediment) and rates of growth nor the combination of both. You can do this for CO2 or non CO2 methods, high and low light, sediment and water column, or combos of each.

Now you have tried the soil alone, many have done water column alone(maybe not for non CO2) .........try the soil + water column.
Do this for non CO2 and CO2. Then see.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Homer_Simpson

plantbrain said:


> ...So if it's just soil that's so great and doing this, *how come we can do it with inert sediment types as well?* ...Regards,
> Tom Barr


I have seen indirect evidence of this. There is a local in my city that has about 5 30-55 gallon tanks going in his rented apartment. There is hardly any room to walk. Lol, and people say I have too many tanks. 

Anyway, the substrate in all the tanks is pool filter sand, he does not fertilize anything but micros(flurorish comprhensive once a week), no pressurized or DIY c02, no Seachem Excel, he uses T5NO coral life dual light fixtures, 30% weekly water changes, fully stocked tanks(with many fish reproducing), and a good compliment of algae eating critters(otocats, zebra nerite snails, bristlenose plecos, amano shrimp, and Siamese Algae Eaters). He feeds the fish daily. His tanks are 100% algae free and he has to do major trimming of plants weekly as they grow like weeds. His tanks are the envy of all the other locals in the city and many continue to ask how that kind of growth, normally seen in high tech tanks is even possible. I once had a discussion with him about Seachem Fluorite, Mineralized Topsoil, ADA AS. His attitude was: why fix it if it ain't broke. He told me that he did not believe in using or even trying commercial substrates given the type of growth he was getting in his tanks from pool filter sand. He recommended not using play sand as he said that the fine lightweight playsand granules wrecked 3 filter impellers in one year and he stopped losing the impellers once he switched to pool filter sand.


----------



## ingg

Viktor has increased lighting on that tank (shortly after the meeting I believe), and it is running CO2 now I believe.  If you look closely between the 2007 and the 2009 picture, you'll see many different plants. 

Considering the tank is a little older - okay, I was off by a LOT - _decades_ old.....let's cut the time in half for CO2? How much? A quarter? Still a lot longer than what a scape lasts....

anyhoo.


Here are High light CO2 tanks with mineralized soil, light fish loads (I'm not a heavy load kinda guy) running over a year anyhow - only potassium, going strong.












Tom, you are showing tanks with moss, Anubias, and Java ferns as your "equivalents". 

That isn't what we're talking about here. I hope the images above show that. Aaron's Rotala tank from a year or so ago was mind blowing - and again, got MS and nothing but potassium, and again had a light fish load.

You won't skip dosing in an inert substrate high light tank with Stellata, Rotala Hippuris, Rotala Viet Nam, Ludwigia Cuba, etc. etc... not and get the color and growth that I've seen others get, and have gotten myself.

You won't get them to go crazy without higher light, either - I was shipping people foot long stems of Stellata, purple from top to bottom of the trim. I was shipping out Polygonum Porto Vehlo blood red over a foot long, almost every person I shipped it to asked how I did that. They may live in no co2 low light, sure - but I have red topped Cuba, purple Stellata, Hippuris with an awesome blush, Downoi making dense bushes 2" tall, Prosipernaca Palustris with red red tops - I'm not running low light tanks.

Does MS alone have downsides? Sure. I can't grow Blyxa to save my life, drives me nuts. Can't grow Tonina Belem (yet, I want a rooted sample to try, and see if it grows...trimmed tops waste away). Some stems grow oddly - like Rotala mini type 2. All stems tend to be more dense, shorter nodal distances, perhaps lending more creedence to limited Xylem activity in submersed plants?

But it works. And I don't have to spend 10 seconds to dose. 10 seconds to dose itself doesn't matter to me in the end. _Not being around to dose does_.


In the end - 

No one is arguing that you _can't_ find a way to dose and get balance in a MS tank. I'm sure if I wanted to deal with the initial imbalances I'd create and find the custom levels required, or simply overdose the heck out of everything and jack the light and CO2 a notch, I could make it work. I'm sure you could, too.

We are trying to say that by and large you do not have to. And for many, like me, that is a HUGE bonus. 


I not only don't have the time or inclination, I also find it wasteful to intentionally set up a system that depends on me overdosing chemicals into my tank only to do huge flushes of "clean" water to get it out again a week later. The use of EI, or PPS, or whatever dosing method don't fit my life, my schedule, and are more costly for me. 

Not that they don't work. Not that they can't work melded with any substrate. _It is simply that they don't need to be used, even with a higher light, CO2 system._


In the end, I think that is all this was posted for by AaronT- to give those who might have never seen it before exposure to a different method. To show folks that they have other options besides an ADA fert routine setup, or a PPS, or an EI. Simply to show other things that work. 

This works. Tweak it all you want, add more complexity, I'm sure it can be made to work - this works "as is" for me and is about as simple and care free as can be, and that is for me!


----------



## smoq

ingg said:


> Viktor has increased lighting on that tank (shortly after the meeting I believe), and it is running CO2 now I believe.  If you look closely between the 2007 and the 2009 picture, you'll see many different plants.
> 
> Considering the tank is a little older - okay, I was off by a LOT - _decades_ old.....let's cut the time in half for CO2? How much? A quarter? Still a lot longer than what a scape lasts....
> 
> anyhoo.
> 
> 
> Here are High light CO2 tanks with mineralized soil, light fish loads (I'm not a heavy load kinda guy) running over a year anyhow - only potassium, going strong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom, you are showing tanks with moss, Anubias, and Java ferns as your "equivalents".
> 
> That isn't what we're talking about here. I hope the images above show that. Aaron's Rotala tank from a year or so ago was mind blowing - and again, got MS and nothing but potassium, and again had a light fish load.
> 
> You won't skip dosing in an inert substrate high light tank with Stellata, Rotala Hippuris, Rotala Viet Nam, Ludwigia Cuba, etc. etc... not and get the color and growth that I've seen others get, and have gotten myself.
> 
> You won't get them to go crazy without higher light, either - I was shipping people foot long stems of Stellata, purple from top to bottom of the trim. I was shipping out Polygonum Porto Vehlo blood red over a foot long, almost every person I shipped it to asked how I did that. They may live in no co2 low light, sure - but I have red topped Cuba, purple Stellata, Hippuris with an awesome blush, Downoi making dense bushes 2" tall, Prosipernaca Palustris with red red tops - I'm not running low light tanks.
> 
> Does MS alone have downsides? Sure. I can't grow Blyxa to save my life, drives me nuts. Can't grow Tonina Belem (yet, I want a rooted sample to try, and see if it grows...trimmed tops waste away). Some stems grow oddly - like Rotala mini type 2. All stems tend to be more dense, shorter nodal distances, perhaps lending more creedence to limited Xylem activity in submersed plants?
> 
> But it works. And I don't have to spend 10 seconds to dose. 10 seconds to dose itself doesn't matter to me in the end. _Not being around to dose does_.
> 
> 
> In the end -
> 
> No one is arguing that you _can't_ find a way to dose and get balance in a MS tank. I'm sure if I wanted to deal with the initial imbalances I'd create and find the custom levels required, or simply overdose the heck out of everything and jack the light and CO2 a notch, I could make it work. I'm sure you could, too.
> 
> We are trying to say that by and large you do not have to. And for many, like me, that is a HUGE bonus.
> 
> 
> I not only don't have the time or inclination, I also find it wasteful to intentionally set up a system that depends on me overdosing chemicals into my tank only to do huge flushes of "clean" water to get it out again a week later. The use of EI, or PPS, or whatever dosing method don't fit my life, my schedule, and are more costly for me.
> 
> Not that they don't work. Not that they can't work melded with any substrate. _It is simply that they don't need to be used, even with a higher light, CO2 system._
> 
> 
> In the end, I think that is all this was posted for by AaronT- to give those who might have never seen it before exposure to a different method. To show folks that they have other options besides an ADA fert routine setup, or a PPS, or an EI. Simply to show other things that work.
> 
> This works. Tweak it all you want, add more complexity, I'm sure it can be made to work - this works "as is" for me and is about as simple and care free as can be, and that is for me!


Great comment, that's what I wanted to read. The main reason I went in for mineralized topsoil was that I tried to escape from dosing rigor as much as I could. Why? Simple, I forget all the time. I forgot to dose so many times that I was angry at myself. The other thing is that you should dose a little before the lights come in, but how can I do that when I leave to work at 7 AM and my lights come in at 12? If I change the lighting period times I would not enjoy my tank after I come back, so what's the point?
The only con of topsoil is the process of mineralizing it, as some folks (like me) have nowhere to do it except in their living/ bedrooms. That's why worm castings interested me. I am really looking forward to more input in this thread by more experienced fish enthusiasts.


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> Well, this is predictable.
> 
> What is not, is when the rates of growth are increased using CO2/and more light. These systems are not comparable because they are not independent based on the soil sediment alone.


I use high lighting and CO2 on all of my tanks. I only ever need to dose 0.5 ppm of potassium / week on my MS tanks and even then only after 6 months of setup. Here's a perfect example.


----------



## lovingHDTV

marcinsmok said:


> ...
> The only con of topsoil is the process of mineralizing it, as some folks (like me) have nowhere to do it except in their living/ bedrooms. That's why worm castings interested me. I am really looking forward to more input in this thread by more experienced fish enthisiasts.


This is why I was wanting to know if you could just get it from a local lake, creek or river. If it is already mineralized then you don't have to do it. Most people live close enough to a waterway that they could drive to one, fill the buckets and head home.

At least that was my thought process  I wish there was some way to test the soil to see if it is sufficiently mineralized (if that makes sens) prior to using it. I don't want to setup a mineralized tank just to find out it is plain inert sand with no goodness in it.

dave


----------



## smoq

AaronT said:


> I use high lighting and CO2 on all of my tanks. I only ever need to dose 0.5 ppm of potassium / week on my MS tanks and even then only after 6 months of setup. Here's a perfect example.


Your beautiful tank is perfect example why I want to try setup my tank with MS.


----------



## Pinto

Awesome info!
Your tank looks amazing with low maintenance. 
I am a believer in Mineralized soil now!


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

AaronT said:


> I use high lighting and CO2 on all of my tanks. I only ever need to dose 0.5 ppm of potassium / week on my MS tanks and even then only after 6 months of setup. Here's a perfect example.


hey Aaron.. what are you using for filtration? how long is your photo period? do you use powerheads to up the flow. the tank looks awesome.. 100x better than mine. I am having trouble with the lower leaves melting away.. especially my limno A.

thanks,

Ken


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> hey Aaron.. what are you using for filtration? how long is your photo period? do you use powerheads to up the flow. the tank looks awesome.. 100x better than mine. I am having trouble with the lower leaves melting away.. especially my limno A.
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Ken


That tank is a 50 breeder. Lighting is 4 x 39 watt Giessemann Midday bulbs. Two bulbs on for 10 hours and all four bulbs on for 5 hours in the middle of those 10 hours. The reflectors are Ice Cap SLRs similar to Tek.

Filtration is an Eheim 2026 Proffesional II. Outflow and inflow on the same side ADA style. 

Pressurized CO2 comes on with lights at about 2 bps (counted using water as the bubble counter medium). 

Tap water was used. Water changes whenever the tank level got too low.


----------



## Gatekeeper

AaronT said:


> That tank is a 50 breeder. Lighting is 4 x 39 watt Giessemann Midday bulbs. Two bulbs on for 10 hours and all four bulbs on for 5 hours in the middle of those 10 hours. The reflectors are Ice Cap SLRs similar to Tek.
> 
> Filtration is an Eheim 2026 Proffesional II. Outflow and inflow on the same side ADA style.
> 
> Pressurized CO2 comes on with lights at about 2 bps (counted using water as the bubble counter medium).
> 
> Tap water was used. Water changes whenever the tank level got too low.


Thanks for making that sound so easy. _I am just going to scurry down the hall now and just whip one of those tanks up in my living room... LMAO._

Seriously, nice job Aaron. Real sweet tank for sure.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

what would be causing the lower leafs to melt off like that do you know?


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I use high lighting and CO2 on all of my tanks. I only ever need to dose 0.5 ppm of potassium / week on my MS tanks and even then only after 6 months of setup. Here's a perfect example.


6 months is not a long time, I could/can predict good initial growth, similar to ADA AS over this same time frame, and atlas...........we see similar results on most soil set ups. The same was true for the folks in Brazil using Vald's method also. You will get longer life and a much easier dosing routine if more nutrients are added to the water column. That is simply common sense.
This applies to ADA AS as well.

They replace the soil and sediments after a year or two. 

Simply because you can do it, does not imply it's better/wiser, or that dosing the water column is some huge chore. Common sense will tell you that adding some nutrients to the water column(you already add some anyway) will extend the life by reducing the draw from the sediment.

Since you already have a sediment back up for nutrients, dosing the water column is easier.

So it's not an issue of trade offs for the water column(which is being dosed anyway), dosing "daily", it's much easier because the are 2 sources of nutrients, one added little by little and one long term. This makes the soil and the water column work better. The method itself has been shown to work at this level several years ago.
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=31

What has not been addressed is tweaking it and making it better over the longer term, without adding too much, much more labor. Nor tearing it down and redoing it every 1-2 years. Some might not mind. 

My question is really why is hard to dose some NO3/PO4/trace mix?
You add fish food, you add K+, etc........it's not as some are suggesting, you are not adding *anything*.

So why not add a little NO3/PO4/Trace as well?
Will this hurt?
Is this "hard", any harder than adding K+?
Does it require monitoring and close testing?

So what do you gain? I'm saying this because this can be enhanced.
More species, better growth, longer life of the sediment.
And it's easy, even if you are forgetful. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## zenfish

I am working on mineralizing some soil Tom,and from what I am seeing you posting,you are saying that if I do not use WC ferts,then I am going to be tearing my system down after 2 years to "RENEW" the nutrients in the substrate???I just want it to be clear as to what I am seeing you typing,and do not want to be putting words in your mouth..


I will not mind dosing WC ferts with my MS,although it will be very small,as I do NOT like to do water changes,and even then I may not have to dose nitrate,phos,, as I have a pretty big fish load..And for clarification from you,and you may of posted this before so forgive me if I am re-hashing old ground,but how much are you saying should be dosed of MICROS,MACROS,in a MS system????

BTW tom,the link as regards to the tank says that he does NO WC ferts,and 50% wc a week..unless I missed something..And I am not sure why he felt the need to do 50% wc a week anyway???

Thanks,
Kevin


----------



## AaronT

plantbrain said:


> 6 months is not a long time, I could/can predict good initial growth, similar to ADA AS over this same time frame, and atlas...........we see similar results on most soil set ups. The same was true for the folks in Brazil using Vald's method also. You will get longer life and a much easier dosing routine if more nutrients are added to the water column. That is simply common sense.
> This applies to ADA AS as well.
> 
> They replace the soil and sediments after a year or two.
> 
> Simply because you can do it, does not imply it's better/wiser, or that dosing the water column is some huge chore. Common sense will tell you that adding some nutrients to the water column(you already add some anyway) will extend the life by reducing the draw from the sediment.
> 
> Since you already have a sediment back up for nutrients, dosing the water column is easier.
> 
> So it's not an issue of trade offs for the water column(which is being dosed anyway), dosing "daily", it's much easier because the are 2 sources of nutrients, one added little by little and one long term. This makes the soil and the water column work better. The method itself has been shown to work at this level several years ago.
> http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2003.cgi?&op=showcase&category=0&vol=2&id=31
> 
> What has not been addressed is tweaking it and making it better over the longer term, without adding too much, much more labor. Nor tearing it down and redoing it every 1-2 years. Some might not mind.
> 
> My question is really why is hard to dose some NO3/PO4/trace mix?
> You add fish food, you add K+, etc........it's not as some are suggesting, you are not adding *anything*.
> 
> So why not add a little NO3/PO4/Trace as well?
> Will this hurt?
> Is this "hard", any harder than adding K+?
> Does it require monitoring and close testing?
> 
> So what do you gain? I'm saying this because this can be enhanced.
> More species, better growth, longer life of the sediment.
> And it's easy, even if you are forgetful.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr



I'm done "discussing" anything with you Tom. It's quite apparent that you have your agenda, you're right and everyone else is wrong. Feel free to discuss planted tanks with me again when you're willing to listen to other's methods.


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> what would be causing the lower leafs to melt off like that do you know?



What's your full setup? Lighting, CO2, Tank Size, etc?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I have a 75gal
216w catalina fixture 8hr photoperiod with 3hr noon burst
2 xp3's with pressurized co2 dispersed by a Danner needle wheel pump
the topsoil capped with sms. (switching out to 3m sand in the next week or so)
fish.. 6 roselines, 10 congos, 15 rasbora hets, 15 white clouds, some ottos, 3 plecos, 2 apistos and some snails.

I do have the flow going strong now. so I don't know what is going on.


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> I have a 75gal
> 216w catalina fixture 8hr photoperiod with 3hr noon burst
> 2 xp3's with pressurized co2 dispersed by a Danner needle wheel pump
> the topsoil capped with sms. (switching out to 3m sand in the next week or so)
> fish.. 6 roselines, 10 congos, 15 rasbora hets, 15 white clouds, some ottos, 3 plecos, 2 apistos and some snails.
> 
> I do have the flow going strong now. so I don't know what is going on.


Hmmm...your setup sounds spot on though I might up the photoperiod to 10 hours and 4-5 hours for light hungry stems. Is it only particular species that are struggling? Can you get a picture?


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

Last year I started one of these tanks in a 120G holding tank for stem plants of all kinds. 
I tried hundreds of stems to see what would fair well with the soil and water conditions..
In the end, they all loved this type of substrate.
Did I add plant food? For the first month I did to try and get algae to grow and I failed
Sense then, I have not changed water,dosed any salts of any kind.
Every 4 months I need to top off water a tiny bit, only because the tank is completely closed off from the outside world with Carbon Lid Sets on the top.

I love this tank even though it has no scape to it, its a complete algae free environment that I love to toss weeds into


----------



## AaronT

Orlando said:


> Im no expert fellas, but I can say this much..
> 
> Last year I started one of these tanks in a 120G holding tank for stem plants of all kinds.
> I tried hundreds of stems to see what would fair well with the soil and water conditions..
> In the end, they all loved this type of substrate.
> Did I add plant food? For the first month I did to try and get algae to grow and I failed
> Sense then, I have not changed water,dosed any salts of any kind.
> Every 4 months I need to top off water a tiny bit, only because the tank is completely closed off from the outside world with Carbon Lid Sets on the top.
> 
> I love this tank even though it has no scape to it, its a complete algae free environment that I love to toss weeds into



Awesome Orlando. I think that's the first picture I've seen of that tank. It's about time.


----------



## Gatekeeper

Well geez Orlando, I wish all my tanks had "no scape" like that. Talk about raising the bar a bit... I wonder what your other tanks look like when you "actually scape" them.


----------



## Coltonorr

So since I don't know where else to post this I figured here would be a good place...since these questions pertain to my 100 gal. mineralized. Tank is 5 weeks old. My specs are:
-8x39w T5HO lights
-photoperiod 8 hours with a 4 hour burst
-no ferts
-CO2 injected
Like Torpedobarb, I too have noticed leaves dying off of the bottom layers, but only on one plant...L. Glandulosa. The tops look great but the bottoms are bare.
Every other plant looks great and is growing fine. Do I increase my photoperiod?

Second...today I was trimming and replanting rotala's and as I stuck the tweezer into the substrate I got a few bubbles of gas that released from the substrate...it was a little stinky! any thoughts? CO2? O2?

My last question is on trimming...I guess I could post it in the plant section but...whatever. My Limnophilia aromatica is doing fantastic so I topped them and replanted the tops a few weeks ago. I did the same with my P. stellatus broad leaf. The bottom halves I kept and they are putting off little plants on the tips, about 2 each. Do I trim the plantlets off and replant and ditch the bottoms? What do you folks do with the bottoms? Keep them with 2 "branches" on each or trim the off and replant?
Thanks Drew


----------



## AaronT

Coltonorr said:


> So since I don't know where else to post this I figured here would be a good place...since these questions pertain to my 100 gal. mineralized. Tank is 5 weeks old. My specs are:
> -8x39w T5HO lights
> -photoperiod 8 hours with a 4 hour burst
> -no ferts
> -CO2 injected
> Like Torpedobarb, I too have noticed leaves dying off of the bottom layers, but only on one plant...L. Glandulosa. The tops look great but the bottoms are bare.
> Every other plant looks great and is growing fine. Do I increase my photoperiod?
> 
> Second...today I was trimming and replanting rotala's and as I stuck the tweezer into the substrate I got a few bubbles of gas that released from the substrate...it was a little stinky! any thoughts? CO2? O2?
> 
> My last question is on trimming...I guess I could post it in the plant section but...whatever. My Limnophilia aromatica is doing fantastic so I topped them and replanted the tops a few weeks ago. I did the same with my P. stellatus broad leaf. The bottom halves I kept and they are putting off little plants on the tips, about 2 each. Do I trim the plantlets off and replant and ditch the bottoms? What do you folks do with the bottoms? Keep them with 2 "branches" on each or trim the off and replant?
> Thanks Drew


You might up your photoperiod a bit to maybe 10 hours a day. 

Keep the bottoms planted for most stems and trim the tops off. I love Rotalas because you can do this over and over again and they bounce back.


----------



## bjc777***

nice idea i cant find dolomite. but i found dolomite tablets here are its ingridients. Ingredients:Calcium (as Calcium Carbonate from Dolomite), Iron (from Dolomite), Magnesium (as Magnesium Carbonate from Dolomite), Other Ingredients: Cellulose, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, silica.
can i use this as a substitute??


----------



## AaronT

bjc777*** said:


> nice idea i cant find dolomite. but i found dolomite tablets here are its ingridients. Ingredients:Calcium (as Calcium Carbonate from Dolomite), Iron (from Dolomite), Magnesium (as Magnesium Carbonate from Dolomite), Other Ingredients: Cellulose, stearic acid, magnesium stearate, silica.
> can i use this as a substitute??


It seems to be the same thing.


----------



## bjc777***

oh and another thing do i really have to have a co2 system in order for this to work??


----------



## AaronT

bjc777*** said:


> oh and another thing do i really have to have a co2 system in order for this to work??


No, you can use it in a low-tech setup as well. I wouldn't use bright lighting without CO2 though. Keep the light levels at medium.


----------



## bjc777***

ok thanks alot


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Aaron I plan to get a picture for you tonight when I get home.. the limno is about 15" tall with only leaves on the top 4"

thanks for the help, Ken


----------



## JimmyYahoo

bjc777*** said:


> oh and another thing do i really have to have a co2 system in order for this to work??


Lots of Excel in the beginning helped me get the plants off to a good start and *I THINK* kept some of the algae at bay.


----------



## bjc777***

i had a really disappointing day last sunday because as i was to buy the dolomite tabs it was all sold out. anyways can is there anything that i could replace the dolomite with?

thanks 


thanks jimmy ill try to find excel here in the philippines


----------



## jargonchipmunk

Torpedobarb said:


> Aaron I plan to get a picture for you tonight when I get home.. the limno is about 15" tall with only leaves on the top 4"
> 
> thanks for the help, Ken


torpedo check my 75 thread in the next couple days. I'll snap some pics tonight. My L. Aromatica is almost to the top of the tank and beautifully red with the more shaded leaves being green(er). Basically it's looking good, and it's got healthy leaves all the way down to the substrate. (and this is YOUR mineralized soil I'm working with so I don't think that's the cause)

*edit* I just thought about it, and we have nearly identical setups. 75gallon two 350gph canisters +mag drive fractioning pump for Co2. Same light fixture... wow. lol 

This makes me think only one thing can be off. Are you getting enough Co2 in there, and a good dispersal pattern with your flow? I would assume you've already ruled this out as a cause, just figured I'd point out the one thing between our setups (besides local water quality since I use tap) that might be different.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I will check it out.. just shoot me a pm when you have it up and ready. I am still having the same problems.. I am just giving up until next week when I redo the tank!


----------



## crawdaddy

Do any of you people use undergravel heaters?
Would/could they be used with this substrate?


----------



## Homer_Simpson

crawdaddy said:


> Do any of you people use undergravel heaters?
> Would/could they be used with this substrate?


I have no personal experience with substrate heating cables, but judging from this discsussion, I see no benefit from using them.
http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/411-substrate-heating-cables.html


----------



## Coltonorr

I think my tank has finally settled in...I rescaped today...but here is the latest.


----------



## michu

Looks lovely Coltonorr!


----------



## creAtive

I have a question about this. Im thinking about trying this method of substrate, but i was thinking of mixing the mineralized soil with black sand to make it darker, without putting a layer on top will this lead to an algae out break? does it need to be covered ? 

I havent had much luck with keeping the substrates layered well, they end up getting mixed up as you add and remove plants, or moving them around, Id like to be able to not worry about it. any thoughts?


----------



## Coltonorr

creAtive said:


> I have a question about this. Im thinking about trying this method of substrate, but i was thinking of mixing the mineralized soil with black sand to make it darker, without putting a layer on top will this lead to an algae out break? does it need to be covered ?
> 
> I havent had much luck with keeping the substrates layered well, they end up getting mixed up as you add and remove plants, or moving them around, Id like to be able to not worry about it. any thoughts?


I think you'd end up with a mess. After you mineralize the soil its like powdered sugar, its sooooo fine. The reason you cap it with sand or fine gravel is to "lock" it all down. I'd cap the MS with dark sand. The sand will stay on top. And if you go to replant or move stuff around, just do a water change afterward.


----------



## creAtive

Oh i see, maybe ill play around with it thanks.


----------



## plantbrain

Coltonorr said:


> I think my tank has finally settled in...I rescaped today...but here is the latest.


Looks nice, semi old school dutch really.
A few trims and some fill in, and it'll be a great tank. 

Tom Barr


----------



## sewingalot

So pretty coltonorr!


----------



## VisionQuest28

I posted this on another forum and didnt get any responses, so i thought i would try here. Some of the terminology might be taken from there, but i think its all self explanatory....

So i am in the planning stages of setting up a NPT, prolly either 10 or 20 gallon. Im wanting to go as low tech as possible, and im def going to be using some sort of soil set up. There seems to be 2 different camps on this one...

The El Natural Method, using a relatively rich soil as is and then just capping it. And then there is using mineralized soil, relatively sterile plain top soil with as little organic matter as possible, and putting it through the mineralization process. So why not combine the 2 methods, using a rich organic soil and then mineralizing it. Am i missing something,or wouldnt having as much organic matter as possible converted over to inorganic (i.e. mineralized) matter be beneficial? Im assuming the more organic matter you start with the longer it will take to mineralize, but assuming you have the time...who cares? I realize that more isnt always better, but this is like saying using plain top soil will grow tomatoes as good as or better than some highly organic composted soil, isnt it? I know algae is a concern, but the mineralization process should take care of that right? Basically, all the inorganic nutrients are supposed to stay in the soil for the most part.

And on the idea of more being better I have another question. For the next week or so i have pretty much unlimited access to fish mulm. I work in an indoor tilapia farm that is closing and we have been draining tanks and filters, and there is literally tons mulm and detritus piled up. Its almost like soil already, very fine and silty but thick. And it will be chemical free, we never treat with anything, and for as long as Ive been there we have never had any disease outbreak. I would have to imagine its like black gold for plants! So i was thinking of using it as a soil additive before starting the mineralization process.


----------



## Homer_Simpson

VisionQuest28 said:


> I posted this on another forum and didnt get any responses, so i thought i would try here. Some of the terminology might be taken from there, but i think its all self explanatory....
> 
> So i am in the planning stages of setting up a NPT, prolly either 10 or 20 gallon. Im wanting to go as low tech as possible, and im def going to be using some sort of soil set up. There seems to be 2 different camps on this one...
> 
> The El Natural Method, using a relatively rich soil as is and then just capping it. And then there is using mineralized soil, relatively sterile plain top soil with as little organic matter as possible, and putting it through the mineralization process. So why not combine the 2 methods, using a rich organic soil and then mineralizing it. Am i missing something,or wouldnt having as much organic matter as possible converted over to inorganic (i.e. mineralized) matter be beneficial? Im assuming the more organic matter you start with the longer it will take to mineralize, but assuming you have the time...who cares? I realize that more isnt always better, but this is like saying using plain top soil will grow tomatoes as good as or better than some highly organic composted soil, isnt it? I know algae is a concern, but the mineralization process should take care of that right? Basically, all the inorganic nutrients are supposed to stay in the soil for the most part.
> 
> And on the idea of more being better I have another question. For the next week or so i have pretty much unlimited access to fish mulm. I work in an indoor tilapia farm that is closing and we have been draining tanks and filters, and there is literally tons mulm and detritus piled up. Its almost like soil already, very fine and silty but thick. And it will be chemical free, we never treat with anything, and for as long as Ive been there we have never had any disease outbreak. I would have to imagine its like black gold for plants! *So i was thinking of using it as a soil additive before starting the mineralization process*.


Why not use mulm underneath or mixed with the mineralized soil after mineralization. I don't see what the added benefit of mineralizing mulm with the soil would be, but could be wrong. If you use sufficient mulm afterwards, and mineralize the soil sufficently before hand, I think you would have a pretty winnning combination. As far as the most orgnanic soil working the best for mineralized soil, without have tried it, I think it would all depend on other factors as well as types of plants you plan to grow. Also, if I am not mistaken, the reason that too high organic soil is not recommended with the mineralized topsoil, is some peoples' observation of green water breakouts and prolonged algae outbreaks from using a soil that is too organic for mineralized topsoil. The issues eventually resolve themselves, but it takes time. The most important factor would be light. You would have to ensure appropriate light even with lower lighting levels, your fish stocking levels would also come into play, frequency of water changes, feedings, whether you inject c02 or not(most folks who inject c02 and have good lighting seem to be having the best results with mineralized toposoil, judging from their journal pictures and progress). Also, plants like anubias and java ferns, not to mention riccia, and mosses are water column feeders and would not care much for how nutrient based the substrate is. Others, such as crypts swords, deep rooting stem plants, etc., may benefit more from a nutrient based substrate, especially if there is no water column dosing, which is what the method calls for. One thing that I strongly believe is that regardless of what you do, starting off with the wrong type of soil, especially if setting up a Natural Planted Tank, can spell disaster(both for plant growth and fish survival) as I found out. I believe that not all soil is created equal, which may explain why some people have success with the NPT method while others fail, despiting doing things by the book. I think the same holds true for Mineralized Top Soil, so I would stick with the exact same brand name topsoil that others have succeeded with and would not alter the recipe too much. Just my 2 cents FWIW.


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## VisionQuest28

Homer_Simpson said:


> Why not use mulm underneath or mixed with the mineralized soil after mineralization. I don't see what the added benefit of mineralizing mulm with the soil would be, but could be wrong. If you use sufficient mulm afterwards, and mineralize the soil sufficently before hand, I think you would have a pretty winnning combination.


OK, that makes sense, i think. I can easily just grab a 5 gallon buckets worth and have enough on hand to experiment with, its not like will go bad right??? I know you cant really give me a definitive answer to this, but...how much mulm do you think is a sufficient amount, roughly anyway? And you think it would be best to add it to the bottom of the tank, first, before putting the MS on top, instead of just mixing it in with everything? I know you suggested either/or, but do you think one is better than the other?



Homer_Simpson said:


> The most important factor would be light. You would have to ensure appropriate light even with lower lighting levels, your fish stocking levels would also come into play, frequency of water changes, feedings, whether you inject c02 or not(most folks who inject c02 and have good lighting seem to be having the best results with mineralized toposoil, judging from their journal pictures and progress). Also, plants like anubias and java ferns, not to mention riccia, and mosses are water column feeders and would not care much for how nutrient based the substrate is. Others, such as crypts swords, deep rooting stem plants, etc., may benefit more from a nutrient based substrate, especially if there is no water column dosing, which is what the method calls for.


Unfortunately i dont have all that figured out yet. Im picking up a used 36g corner bowfront that i would like to use for a planted tank, and i was thinking about using a 70w metalhide for lighting. For 2 main reasons, 1... its such an odd shape that it is hard to light evenly and, 2... nothing beats the way MH looks! If i could squeeze it in there would probably use some supplemental lighting as well, either CF or T5's, either full time or as burst for a few hours a day. But maybe not at all? I realize that 70w would give me less than 2 watts per gallon, but i dont really put too much stock in the whole watts per gallon thing. Too many other factors come into play. I would like to use pressurized co2...eventually. One of the things that got me interested in doing this planted tank (yet again, ive toyed with the idea for years!) was reading about the NPT's and mineralized soil. A way to do it cheaply and easily, with out spending a ton of money was very appealing! But at the same time, i understand the benefits of co2, and the success of pressurized co2 certainly cant be denied. I should more than likely just stick to my idea of doing a 10g first, using excel or diy co2, just to get "my feet wet" before i get too involved with co2 systems and metal halides and all that. Ive never grown a FW plant, EVER, but ive had pretty reasonable success with reef tanks, but the desire has always been there.



Homer_Simpson said:


> I believe that not all soil is created equal, which may explain why some people have success with the NPT method while others fail, despiting doing things by the book. I think the same holds true for Mineralized Top Soil, so I would stick with the exact same brand name topsoil that others have succeeded with and would not alter the recipe too much. Just my 2 cents FWIW.


So basically..."if it aint broke, dont fix it!!!???" lol That been the underlying thought i have had the whole time ive been considering this. The method is tried and true, and i know it. But at the same time, almost everything can be improved upon. But, more than likely im not the one to improve this at all! haha


----------



## Homer_Simpson

VisionQuest28 said:


> ... I know you cant really give me a definitive answer to this, but...how much mulm do you think is a sufficient amount, roughly anyway? And you think it would be best to add it to the bottom of the tank, first, before putting the MS on top, instead of just mixing it in with everything? I know you suggested either/or, but do you think one is better than the other?


I have heard that too much mulm feeds algae but I have yet to see anyone prove this definitively. IMHO, it is easier for some just to blame mulm on algae issues when the real culprit may well be too much light or insufficient/inconsistent c02. I would personally underlay about a 1/2" of mulm before topping off with mineralized topsoil. You can mix it with mineralized topsoil and then add, but I am guessing that you may have initial cloudiness issues as the beneficial bacteria in the mulm would be easily disturbed when mixed with soil and flooded with water causing a temporary bacterial bloom. 




VisionQuest28 said:


> I realize that 70w would give me less than 2 watts per gallon, but i dont really put too much stock in the whole watts per gallon thing. Too many other factors come into play. I would like to use pressurized co2...eventually. One of the things that got me interested in doing this planted tank (yet again, ive toyed with the idea for years!) was reading about the NPT's and mineralized soil. A way to do it cheaply and easily, with out spending a ton of money was very appealing! But at the same time, i understand the benefits of co2, and the success of pressurized co2 certainly cant be denied. I* should more than likely just stick to my idea of doing a 10g first, using excel or diy co2, just to get "my feet wet" before i get too involved with co2 systems and metal halides and all that. * Ive never grown a FW plant, EVER, but ive had pretty reasonable success with reef tanks, but the desire has always been there.


Personally I believe that 10 gallon is a perfect sized tank to experiment with mineralized topsoil, especially if you don't want to go with pressurized c02 and use DIY c02, it is easier IME to hit the balance of light and DIY c02 with this sized tank, should you run into algae issues. And you can always supplement with Seachem Excel, which would not cost you an arm and a leg on that sized tank. Most people even double dose Seachem Excel in lieu of DIY c02 or pressurized c02 on smaller tanks with mineralized topsoil and find that this really helps the plants get established quickly - and when that happens algae is less likely. Another thing to think about although I cannot say that it would work 100% with this method without issues, but some who have tried it state it really works is to start your tank emersed with mineralized topsoil, then go submersed. This way the plants will be really well established, growth will be good assuming everything else(light, c02, excel dosing) is in good order, and algae issues will be less likely or minimal. Here is a description of the method.
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/g...n/52332-new-method-start-up-algae-free-3.html





VisionQuest28 said:


> So basically..."if it aint broke, dont fix it!!!???" lol That been the underlying thought i have had the whole time ive been considering this. The method is tried and true, and i know it. But at the same time, almost everything can be improved upon. But, more than likely im not the one to improve this at all! haha


Yes, exactly. I had a very negative experience when I set up a 5 gallon natural planted tank and I very strongly believe that the type of soil used was at the root of the problem, even though I did just about everything by the book. Had I used the exact same brand soil that EL Naturalists who succeeded used I believe the outcome would have been different. I also base this on the experience of a local who had a very positive experience. Considering, we had the same lighting, same sized tank, no c02, same tap water, the only thing that could account for our vastly different experiences is the very different brand name soil used.


----------



## VisionQuest28

Homer, thanks for the replies! Everything you say makes sense to me. As far as the mulm is concerned, ive gathered a gallon size freezer bag full, and this is straight mulm, very little water in it at all. Alot of it was already dried and the rest was thick and muddy, i would guess i have a 10-15lb bag of what basically looks like chocolate pudding. lol I agree though about putting it down first, not because of the bacteria cuz im pretty sure all of that is dead at this point (its been sealed in a plastic bag with no air) but im sure it would be SUPER messy any time it was disturbed. IM thinking i should start another thread about this, i have several more comments and questions regarding it.

Im definitely going to just start with the 10g, i bought a lighting set up for it on the swap and shop. It was your basic hood and light, but the strip takes 2 10w compact fluorescents and it had DIY reflectors added in. Ive been searching for different bulbs, to increase the wattage slightly, like maybe 13w each or so. I plan on using excell i believe, but maybe ill do a DIY CO2, havent totally decided yet.

And now im working on tracking down the stuff to mineralize the topsoil. And as a lot of different peeps have found on here, finding just straight regular old dirt "top soil" is proving to be rather difficult! I THINK Lowe's had some that was regular dirt, but thats just based on a visual inspection. Im thinking i might just go out into the woods and dig some, and screen it really good, if all else fails. Clay,pot ash,and dolomite is hard to find locally too. I saw that TorpedoBarb was selling mineralized soil already made in kits, and ive asked about just buying the additives, minus the topsoil. Her prices for the soil already mineralized were great and well worth it i think, i just didnt want to pay the shipping, and i kind of want to mineralize it myself anyway, just for the experience if nothing else. Waiting to get an answer from her.

Anyway, thanks for all your input! Once i get started and underway i will def start a thread with pics and everything. Im still in the gathering of supplies stage now!


----------



## Homer_Simpson

VisionQuest28 said:


> Homer, thanks for the replies! Everything you say makes sense to me. As far as the mulm is concerned, ive gathered a gallon size freezer bag full, and this is straight mulm, very little water in it at all. Alot of it was already dried and the rest was thick and muddy, i would guess i have a 10-15lb bag of what basically looks like chocolate pudding. lol I agree though about putting it down first, not because of the bacteria cuz im pretty sure all of that is dead at this point (its been sealed in a plastic bag with no air) but im sure it would be SUPER messy any time it was disturbed. IM thinking i should start another thread about this, i have several more comments and questions regarding it.
> 
> Im definitely going to just start with the 10g, i bought a lighting set up for it on the swap and shop. It was your basic hood and light, but the strip takes 2 10w compact fluorescents and it had DIY reflectors added in. Ive been searching for different bulbs, to increase the wattage slightly, like maybe 13w each or so. I plan on using excell i believe, but maybe ill do a DIY CO2, havent totally decided yet.
> 
> And now im working on tracking down the stuff to mineralize the topsoil. And as a lot of different peeps have found on here, finding just straight regular old dirt "top soil" is proving to be rather difficult! I THINK Lowe's had some that was regular dirt, but thats just based on a visual inspection. Im thinking i might just go out into the woods and dig some, and screen it really good, if all else fails. Clay,pot ash,and dolomite is hard to find locally too. I saw that TorpedoBarb was selling mineralized soil already made in kits, and ive asked about just buying the additives, minus the topsoil. Her prices for the soil already mineralized were great and well worth it i think, i just didnt want to pay the shipping, and i kind of want to mineralize it myself anyway, just for the experience if nothing else. Waiting to get an answer from her.
> 
> Anyway, thanks for all your input! Once i get started and underway i will def start a thread with pics and everything. Im still in the gathering of supplies stage now!


You are most welcome  If you want to avoid initial algae issues, IME, if you stick to two 10 watt compact fluorecent 6500 K bulbs in an incandescent 10 gallon canopy, you should be fine. Once plant growth is firmly established, you should be able to replace them with two 15 watt compact fluorescent 6500K bulbs without issues. I found a combination of DIY c02(I replace the brew every 3 weeks) with double dosing of Excel gave me the best algae free growth with this sized tank and the 20 watt intial followed by 30 watts once plant growth was firmly established. At least, that was my experience.

P.S. Lots of people are having excelllent results with TorpedoBarb's mineralized topsoil premixes judging from their journals, so it may well worth be exploring. At the very least if you decide to do your own MTS, try and get the exact same brand soil that TB used if you can. FWIW, the local in my city who had excellent results with just a Diana Walstad type natural planted tank used PlantSmart brand potting soil from Wal-Mart. This is the exact same brand I have decided to mineralize for my topsoil setup and it is dirt cheap.


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## filipem

Well mine is almost ready to go. I've had a hell of a time trying to find the potash and the dolomite. I've skimmed the some odd 500 post posts on this thread and I understand that for the dolomite I can use epsom salt and crush coral together as a substitute. As for the potash.. is it really necessary? would it not be easier to simply dose K2SO4 if yellowing or holes start to become present?

Also this may be a silly question but I do not recall anyone asking. Since eco compete is known to harden the water could I simply not use that as a cap to keep the ph 7+ or maybe a little on the bottom?


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## Left C

filipem said:


> ... I've had a hell of a time trying to find the potash and the dolomite. ...


You might can get them from Torpedobarb or AaronT. They may be able to ship to Canada.


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## filipem

I would really like to get the tank setup in the next two day's. I would not like to wait over a week for it.

I may ask one of them to ship it if I have no choice but I hate to be a bother to anyone if I don't have to.

If crushed coral and epson salt works I may do that. I wonder if anyone knows about the eco though that would be easier. I have tons of it.

the potash thing still confuses me though why not simply dose?


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## Hoppy

The originator of this mineralized topsoil method, at least the one who began writing about it here, had great success with doing it the way he did. From then on it has been a desire to duplicate his success that has led to people to follow it word for word. A few people have pointed out that some of the "formula" could be changed without causing it to be less effective, but that opinion has not gained a lot of following. I'm sure I'm not alone in having my own opinion about what changes could readily be made, with no ill effects.

When I tried this I used cuttlebone, sold for birds, as a calcium carbonate source, and a potassium chloride "table salt" as the potassium source. Both of those components are used very sparingly anyway, so my opinion has been that it cannot be critical to use exactly what was described in the original recipe. I also used a clay rich soil instead of adding clay to the mix, but I concede that that was deviating a bit more than might be desirable.

Instead of using EcoComplete to cap the topsoil, to keep the pH up, I think a far better idea is to lose the pH test kit, so you you don't have to be concerned about pH.


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## filipem

OK thanks for the advice hoppy. I'm sure I can find the epson salt and the cuttlebone.

One question though how did you shave the cuttlebone?


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## michu

I have more potash and dolomite than I ever care to have. I'll send you more than you'll ever want if you send me your address.


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## Hoppy

I scraped the cuttlebone, the soft, calcium part, not the harder organic part, with a dull knife right onto the bare tank bottom, until I had a very thin layer all over the bottom. The salt I used for potassium is not Epsom salts - that is a magnesium source, not potassium. I found it in the grocery story with regular salt, off in a corner with "no salt", or whatever the standard brand is. I picked a cheap generic brand because it was virtually 100% KCl. That I just "salted" the bottom of the tank with, for another very thin hazy layer. Then I added the mineralized topsoil on top.


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## smoq

I was thinking- I am about to start my 75g and I wanted to cap my mineralized soil with colorquartz, but since I have to make an order with drfostersmith anyway, will it add anything if I buy a bag of black fluorite and mix it with colorquartz or will it be waste of money? I have enough colorquartz to fill the bottom of my tank, but I can use leftover the rest for another tank in the future


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## MFish

Hey all,
I'm about to do my first heavily planted tank since I started getting into reef tanks 3 years ago using this method. I have a 40breeder, with a 4bulb T5HO fixture (Current Nova Extreme, definitely going to be investing in a good CO2 system)

Anyhow, I was wondering if you guys recommend crushing the dolomite up or not. The LFS around here carries it in a pebble-ish form as a saltwater substrate.


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## Coltonorr

MFish said:


> Hey all,
> I'm about to do my first heavily planted tank since I started getting into reef tanks 3 years ago using this method. I have a 40breeder, with a 4bulb T5HO fixture (Current Nova Extreme, definitely going to be investing in a good CO2 system)
> 
> Anyhow, I was wondering if you guys recommend crushing the dolomite up or not. The LFS around here carries it in a pebble-ish form as a saltwater substrate.


Pebbl-ish form is fine, that is what you want. By chance is it Estes?


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## MFish

Coltonorr said:


> Pebbl-ish form is fine, that is what you want. By chance is it Estes?


Perfect :thumbsup:

That's exactly the brand it is. I'm heading out soon to see if they have any left.


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## Hoppy

marcinsmok said:


> I was thinking- I am about to start my 75g and I wanted to cap my mineralized soil with colorquartz, but since I have to make an order with drfostersmith anyway, will it add anything if I buy a bag of black fluorite and mix it with colorquartz or will it be waste of money? I have enough colorquartz to fill the bottom of my tank, but I can use leftover the rest for another tank in the future


The advantage of Flourite is its high CEC, which helps the plants roots get access to needed nutrients. But, the clay in the mineralized topsoil does the same thing. I think I would just use the colorquartz alone.


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## VisionQuest28

Homer_Simpson said:


> You are most welcome  If you want to avoid initial algae issues, IME, if you stick to two 10 watt compact fluorecent 6500 K bulbs in an incandescent 10 gallon canopy, you should be fine. Once plant growth is firmly established, you should be able to replace them with two 15 watt compact fluorescent 6500K bulbs without issues. I found a combination of DIY c02(I replace the brew every 3 weeks) with double dosing of Excel gave me the best algae free growth with this sized tank and the 20 watt intial followed by 30 watts once plant growth was firmly established. At least, that was my experience.
> 
> P.S. Lots of people are having excelllent results with TorpedoBarb's mineralized topsoil premixes judging from their journals, so it may well worth be exploring. At the very least if you decide to do your own MTS, try and get the exact same brand soil that TB used if you can. FWIW, the local in my city who had excellent results with just a Diana Walstad type natural planted tank used PlantSmart brand potting soil from Wal-Mart. This is the exact same brand I have decided to mineralize for my topsoil setup and it is dirt cheap.


Homer, your the man...thanks again! Sounds like great advice as far as lighting and co2 goes. I havent received the lighting fixture yet, but the seller made it seem like only long straight CFl screw in bulbs would fit, and not the spiral type...because of the DIY reflectors that he installed. Im having a super hard time finding any thing other than the 10w size bulb in the straight u-tube type bulb style. But we will see once i get it what my options are.

Ill have to check into that soil at walmart, i was there over the weekend and dont remember seeing it, but i was looking for topsoil instead of potting soil so maybe i missed it. Ive had no luck getting in touch with torpedobarb...how dare she let life get in the way of things here! lol 



michu said:


> I have more potash and dolomite than I ever care to have. I'll send you more than you'll ever want if you send me your address.


Michu, i would love to take you up on that offer, if you're extending it out to everyone!


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## filipem

Hoppy said:


> I scraped the cuttlebone, the soft, calcium part, not the harder organic part, with a dull knife right onto the bare tank bottom, until I had a very thin layer all over the bottom. The salt I used for potassium is not Epsom salts - that is a magnesium source, not potassium. I found it in the grocery story with regular salt, off in a corner with "no salt", or whatever the standard brand is. I picked a cheap generic brand because it was virtually 100% KCl. That I just "salted" the bottom of the tank with, for another very thin hazy layer. Then I added the mineralized topsoil on top.


Thanks again Hoppy I picked up some cuttlebone today. By chance I happened to pass by garden centre across town. I figured I might as well try one more place for the potash. I'm glad I did they did have the right potash. So it looks like I'm ready to go. Thanks again. :thumbsup:



michu said:


> I have more potash and dolomite than I ever care to have. I'll send you more than you'll ever want if you send me your address.


Thank you very much for the offer. I managed to find what I need so I won't need any. 

now to mix the clay


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## MFish

Went around to a bunch of nurseries today, had to get some things anyhow, no luck on the potash.


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## michu

If anybody wants some of mine, just pm your address and how much you need.


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## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> The advantage of Flourite is its high CEC, which helps the plants roots get access to needed nutrients. But, the clay in the mineralized topsoil does the same thing. I think I would just use the colorquartz alone.


Yes, even better in many cases, you can also use Zeolite in place of something for CEC, it's pretty high. Leonardite also is really good(Diamond Black from Hydroponics' places) and adds some tannins. Peat additions also good for exchange.

But generally, there's a lot more draw than replacement in static closed systems. Mostly export via plant biomass.

Some fish and plant waste gets cycled back. And the draw never completely eliminates all the nutrients, but the concentrations will go down in the sediments over time (much like a log curve).

Most places that sell sand/landscaping/rock/gravel also have dolomite sands BTW, pretty cheap.



regards, 
Tom Barr


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## smoq

plantbrain said:


> Yes, even better in many cases, you can also use Zeolite in place of something for CEC, it's pretty high. Leonardite also is really good(Diamond Black from Hydroponics' places) and adds some tannins. Peat additions also good for exchange.
> 
> But generally, there's a lot more draw than replacement in static closed systems. Mostly export via plant biomass.
> 
> Some fish and plant waste gets cycled back. And the draw never completely eliminates all the nutrients, but the concentrations will go down in the sediments over time (much like a log curve).
> 
> Most places that sell sand/landscaping/rock/gravel also have dolomite sands BTW, pretty cheap.
> 
> 
> 
> regards,
> Tom Barr


 thank you for your answers. I was thinking about some kind of addition to my mineralized soil capped with colorquartz 'cause it is kind of one-time operation- Once I add my substrate and fill my tank with water it will be very hard for me to change anything. I thought fluorite black so plants can get to nutrients quick and I won't have to wait for the roots to get to the soil layer on the bottom. I also thought about laterite as a first layer, but I don't have any knowledge about leonardite or zeolite. Can you explain more? Where to get them?


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## TheCryptKeeper

VisionQuest28 said:


> Ill have to check into that soil at walmart, i was there over the weekend and dont remember seeing it, but i was looking for topsoil instead of potting soil so maybe i missed it. Ive had no luck getting in touch with torpedobarb...how dare she let life get in the way of things here! lol



Torpedobarb is a guy!


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## TheCryptKeeper

marcinsmok said:


> I was thinking- I am about to start my 75g and I wanted to cap my mineralized soil with colorquartz, but since I have to make an order with drfostersmith anyway, will it add anything if I buy a bag of black fluorite and mix it with colorquartz or will it be waste of money? I have enough colorquartz to fill the bottom of my tank, but I can use leftover the rest for another tank in the future


if you put a larger grain gravel in with the sand.. the bigger grain will end up on top and you won't see the sand.. it will settle on the bottom.

I mixed my topsoil with the colorquartz sand and made it about 2.5" thick and then topped off with another inch of sand. made the nutrient layer much thicker and easier for roots to get to it faster.. less of a transition period for them.


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## smoq

Torpedobarb said:


> if you put a larger grain gravel in with the sand.. the bigger grain will end up on top and you won't see the sand.. it will settle on the bottom.
> 
> I mixed my topsoil with the colorquartz sand and made it about 2.5" thick and then topped off with another inch of sand. made the nutrient layer much thicker and easier for roots to get to it faster.. less of a transition period for them.


 So basically I can mix the stuff you've send me with colorquartz instead of doing a thin layer of pure soil? Does the soil mix with the top layer?


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## Hoppy

Last summer I made some mineralized topsoil to play with in a 10 gallon tank. I put the topsoil in first, then added about 1.5 inches of Flourite black sand. After a few months of playing with it, planting and replanting areas, I tore down the tank. I let the substrate dry out out in the sun for a week or two, then was able to scoop out virtually pure Flourite right down to the relatively hard layer of topsoil. I then scooped out the topsoil into another bag, and gave the two bags to someone else to play with.

The point of that story is that the two substrates didn't mix at all, even though I was pulling out plants, replanting, by shoving stems all the way to the bottom glass. Apparently, the fine grain topsoil settles to the bottom pretty quickly, leaving the coarser grain sand on top.


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## michu

I think it depends upon the topsoil. My topsoil had a lot of sand in it as well as the local soil I mixed in. Mine has risen and mixed with my CQ. About once a month, I sprinkle a light layer of CQ over the top to recap and get it back black. You can see the layers on the side of the tank and also the much that has risen. Also, my CQ sank into my mud when applying; so I probably made the mud too wet. If you don't want it to mix, I suggest making the mud drier than pudding as I did.


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## mistergreen

in my little soil tank, the soil/mulm does travel up. it's strange but seems like it's moving up plant roots.. This tank is like 3 years old. it's not a big deal though.


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## TheCryptKeeper

Hoppy said:


> Last summer I made some mineralized topsoil to play with in a 10 gallon tank. I put the topsoil in first, then added about 1.5 inches of Flourite black sand. After a few months of playing with it, planting and replanting areas, I tore down the tank. I let the substrate dry out out in the sun for a week or two, then was able to scoop out virtually pure Flourite right down to the relatively hard layer of topsoil. I then scooped out the topsoil into another bag, and gave the two bags to someone else to play with.
> 
> The point of that story is that the two substrates didn't mix at all, even though I was pulling out plants, replanting, by shoving stems all the way to the bottom glass. Apparently, the fine grain topsoil settles to the bottom pretty quickly, leaving the coarser grain sand on top.


respectfully I will disagree. if you put the proper amount of clay or just a little more it will stop that from happening at such a rapid rate. it bonds the two together extremely well. you also have to get it mixed throughly and at a very thick consistency. you will want it thick enough for you to hold it in your hand and form it into a ball and it stay. that will ensure that you have the right consistency.
if you are careful when planting and uprooting plants you will not have as big a problem and everyone has been led on to happen with sediment loss. I never had a problem with this.

I am not trying to be argumentative I am only stating what I know. generally in larger substrates.. such as sand and sms... yes the sand will sink to the bottom and the larger will stay on top.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

marcinsmok said:


> So basically I can mix the stuff you've send me with colorquartz instead of doing a thin layer of pure soil? Does the soil mix with the top layer?



mix the topsoil and clay I sent you with enough colorquartz to make it about 2" deep at a very thick consistency. thick enough to hold in your hand and form a ball without it falling apart. sprinkle the potash and dolomite on the bottom.. maybe a little peat and put your mud mix in. cap off with another 1.5" of colorquartz.. done deal. makes it easier for the plants to root and reach the nutrients easier. if you look at my journal on like page 45 or so you can see the mixture in my tank before I capped it.. notice how it holds its form... that is the right consistency for it. just make sure you put enough clay into the mix.. it definitely bonds with the soil to hold it all together.

also to add to the separation issue.. if your topsoil has alot of sand in it then yes the separation of soil in the colorquartz will happen. the stuff I sent you was pure pulverized black dirt with no organics at all. I mineralized it 5x. your soil has little to no sand in it. pure black gold! lol


----------



## Hoppy

Torpedobarb said:


> respectfully I will disagree. if you put the proper amount of clay or just a little more it will stop that from happening at such a rapid rate. it bonds the two together extremely well. you also have to get it mixed throughly and at a very thick consistency. you will want it thick enough for you to hold it in your hand and form it into a ball and it stay. that will ensure that you have the right consistency.
> if you are careful when planting and uprooting plants you will not have as big a problem and everyone has been led on to happen with sediment loss. I never had a problem with this.
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative I am only stating what I know. generally in larger substrates.. such as sand and sms... yes the sand will sink to the bottom and the larger will stay on top.


I realize you aren't being argumentative, but I don't understand what you disagreed with. I simply reported what happened in my tank, and what it seemed to indicate. It is just facts, not a theory. 

One thing I have done before, but don't recall if I did this time, was to ease the transition between soil and "sand" by mixing the two together in a middle layer, before adding just the "sand" on top. I definitely did that with the SMS/river silt substrates I set up, but I can't recall for sure if I did with the Flourite/ silt - the odds are very high that I did. That was why I was so amazed when I started scooping out some of the Flourite to save it, and found I could scoop all of it out, with no intermediate layer. 

When I did this with SMS and later removed it, the SMS and river silt were still mixed in an intermediate layer, so I couldn't salvage hardly any near pure SMS, and ended up just dumping the whole substrate on a flower bed. I have no idea why the difference. (Maybe Flourite is magic?)


----------



## smoq

Torpedobarb said:


> mix the topsoil and clay I sent you with enough colorquartz to make it about 2" deep at a very thick consistency. thick enough to hold in your hand and form a ball without it falling apart. sprinkle the potash and dolomite on the bottom.. maybe a little peat and put your mud mix in. cap off with another 1.5" of colorquartz.. done deal. makes it easier for the plants to root and reach the nutrients easier. if you look at my journal on like page 45 or so you can see the mixture in my tank before I capped it.. notice how it holds its form... that is the right consistency for it. just make sure you put enough clay into the mix.. it definitely bonds with the soil to hold it all together.
> 
> also to add to the separation issue.. if your topsoil has alot of sand in it then yes the separation of soil in the colorquartz will happen. the stuff I sent you was pure pulverized black dirt with no organics at all. I mineralized it 5x. your soil has little to no sand in it. pure black gold! lol


 I'll do exactly like you're saying. So the amount of clay you've send me is enough and not too much for my 75?


----------



## crimsonbull57

I plan on using this method but I just had a couple questions first

1.The bag of Topsoil in my shed says "Organic Garden Soil, Enriched with Organic Fertilizer" would this be safe to use? My main concern was the fertilizer.

2. Do you need to put a layer of gravel or sand ontop of the topsoil? I don't really like the look of my current gravel and I wanted to keep the sub. a darker color


----------



## Coltonorr

crimson, 
you do put a layer of sand or fine gravel on top of the MS. I would steer clear of very fine textured sands and stick with sands that have a larger grain size. Good choices are Colorquartz, Pool filter sand etc. 
As far as the soil in your shed...Personally I wouldn't use it...but others will chime in I'm sure. 
Good Luck!:thumbsup:


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

crimsonbull57 said:


> I plan on using this method but I just had a couple questions first
> 
> 1.The bag of Topsoil in my shed says "Organic Garden Soil, Enriched with Organic Fertilizer" would this be safe to use? My main concern was the fertilizer.
> 
> 2. Do you need to put a layer of gravel or sand ontop of the topsoil? I don't really like the look of my current gravel and I wanted to keep the sub. a darker color


absolutely not on that soil. it needs to be pure topsoil.. basically pulverized black dirt. you should be able to go to your local garden center and ask them if you can buy some.. a nursery is best. my local nursery will sell pulverized black dirt for 2.00 a 5gal bucket full. you will have the best results when mineralizing it. you will not have as much loss and the black dirt has a very small amount of sand in it.

as for a cap.. you will want to try to use something of a small grain.. in my opinion the black colorquartz is the best.. but sms or something like that will work too. if you have larger gravel you will have the soil leach out much faster when planting and uprooting.


marcinsmok

you can add all of that clay.. it will be fine. again just make sure you cap it off with about 1.5" of your choice (sand etc.)


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

Hoppy.. I didn't mean to come across like that.. so I am sorry.

I was also just stating my experience with this so far. I made sure that the amount of soil to clay mixture was enough so that the soil was suspended in the mud and not fell out to the bottom. it was a extremely thick mud. when I added the sand to the mix it was all in suspension together and held tight. yes eventually it will all settle to the bottom but that will be a long time. but that won't be a devastating thing either because we have been putting the topsoil plainly on the bottom of the tank and then capping off with 3" or so of gravel etc. I have found that it helps out with the transition period the plants experience when going to a nutrient rich sediment bed.


lol.. I took my sms with the soil mix out and put it into my bonsai pots a few days after doing the change over.. it has made a great difference with the growth. I water my plants with fish tank water too!


Ken


----------



## crimsonbull57

Cool guys, thanks for the help, im going to a local garden store tomorrow so I will get pure topsoil there. Where can I get colorquartz? will the garden store have it?


----------



## SCMurphy

crimsonbull57 said:


> I plan on using this method but I just had a couple questions first
> 
> 1.The bag of Topsoil in my shed says "Organic Garden Soil, Enriched with Organic Fertilizer" would this be safe to use? My main concern was the fertilizer.
> 
> 2. Do you need to put a layer of gravel or sand ontop of the topsoil? I don't really like the look of my current gravel and I wanted to keep the sub. a darker color


This soil is not the best choice for a topsoil, but if you are willing to let it mineralize it will work. It will just take longer to finish, and more wet/dry cycles. The layer of gravel is important, it keeps the soil in the substrate and it is much easier to plant in than mud. 



crimsonbull57 said:


> Cool guys, thanks for the help, im going to a local garden store tomorrow so I will get pure topsoil there. Where can I get colorquartz? will the garden store have it?


You have to find a aggregate dealer, go to the 3M website and dig around until you find the ColorQuartz section then find the locate dealer page.


----------



## sewingalot

Oh no! I added the S grade sand and it is tiny! Will it be okay or am I dooming my shrimp to an anaerobic bubble of death? On the bright side, tank's cycled and no algae.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

I am not 100% sure and someone correct me if I am wrong.. but I think that grade of sand is too small and can contribute to anaerobic pockets. T-grade is the best from what I have heard about and use.


----------



## sewingalot

Ugh, looks like I have some removal to do......


----------



## michu

I've read on other forums that the S grade is better and doesn't compact. I don't know what the truth of it is, but there are many using it and love it. I sometimes wish I had got it because I can't keep a Cory alive in that tank for very long. On the other hand, I read that the stuff is light and tends to want to float on top... something that would drive me crazy and became the deciding factor for me at the time. I think I'd rather have healthy Cories, though. The S grade is supposed to be smoother and rounder, I believe.

If I had it to do over, I'd have gone with something other than 3M CQ or possibly the S grade.


----------



## Do0dLENo0dLE

Hey I have a question. 
My topsoil came straight from the ground. Not my ground, the lady at my local nursery told me to get it at this one place, because its very good topsoil, blah blah. Anyway, so I pretty much got my topsoil from a giant pile that came straight from the earth, from a deep-ish hole. No fertilizers or anything have touched it. Is it still necessary to soak the soil for a day each time after each drying process, or is just soaking it for a day once enough?


----------



## SCMurphy

Do0dLENo0dLE said:


> Hey I have a question.
> My topsoil came straight from the ground. Not my ground, the lady at my local nursery told me to get it at this one place, because its very good topsoil, blah blah. Anyway, so I pretty much got my topsoil from a giant pile that came straight from the earth, from a deep-ish hole. No fertilizers or anything have touched it. Is it still necessary to soak the soil for a day each time after each drying process, or is just soaking it for a day once enough?


We don't know what the organic fraction of your soil is. It might possible that you don't have to mineralize it at all. If you soak it, what does it smell like? If it doesn't stick like rotting vegetation then it is possibly ready to be used.


----------



## Do0dLENo0dLE

It doesn't smell like anything at all...just like wet dirt really. Well, I think I'll just let my second run dry out then and take it from there. Thanks!

Great method by the way, cant wait to try it out in my tank!


----------



## milkdud

Would 3 bags of topsoil be enough for a 180 gal? How much 3M CQ should I get?... assuming that I will be mixing in some CQ with the MTS and will be having a 3" cap in the back sloping to 1" cap in the front. Is 3" too deep of a cap, or can I even go deeper in the back?


----------



## AaronT

milkdud said:


> Would 3 bags of topsoil be enough for a 180 gal? How much 3M CQ should I get?... assuming that I will be mixing in some CQ with the MTS and will be having a 3" cap in the back sloping to 1" cap in the front. Is 3" too deep of a cap, or can I even go deeper in the back?


Ingg did a 180 gallon so you might PM him and ask how much of everything he used.


----------



## AaronT

sewingalot said:


> Oh no! I added the S grade sand and it is tiny! Will it be okay or am I dooming my shrimp to an anaerobic bubble of death? On the bright side, tank's cycled and no algae.


I think you'll be fine so long as you planted heavily. It's certainly no worse than using that decorative sand that was so popular last year.

The main difference in the grades that I've noticed is that the T-grade doesn't get moved around as easily and holds the plants better.


----------



## AaronT

Torpedobarb said:


> respectfully I will disagree. if you put the proper amount of clay or just a little more it will stop that from happening at such a rapid rate. it bonds the two together extremely well. you also have to get it mixed throughly and at a very thick consistency. you will want it thick enough for you to hold it in your hand and form it into a ball and it stay. that will ensure that you have the right consistency.
> if you are careful when planting and uprooting plants you will not have as big a problem and everyone has been led on to happen with sediment loss. I never had a problem with this.
> 
> I am not trying to be argumentative I am only stating what I know. generally in larger substrates.. such as sand and sms... yes the sand will sink to the bottom and the larger will stay on top.


A big part of the reason for adding the clay is that it does bind to the soil. It doesn't bind so much to the Flourite or whatever other cap you choose to use. The binding helps with nutrient uptake and also helps with flocculation to allow the soil to settle out of the water column faster and back to the bottom of the tank as Hoppy observed. 

Overall you're looking for about a 5% clay composition by volume in the soil mixture. Too much clay can be a bad thing, though I think you'd have to use quite a lot before it was too terribly detrimental.


----------



## michu

3 bags is plenty with that size cap. I used 4, but I have a deep cap. I have the T-grade, though, that I don't like at all. If you use the T, I wouldn't invest in any fish that have barbels because mine all die with what I call face rot... they're always missing their mouths.


----------



## mistergreen

AaronT said:


> Overall you're looking for about a 5% clay composition by volume in the soil mixture. Too much clay can be a bad thing, though I think you'd have to use quite a lot before it was too terribly detrimental.


oh, that's interesting. I wasn't aware of the percentage.

I'm going to mix up a batch and I can only find terra cotta clay block so mixing will be tough until I remember I had this (mortar mixer) laying around.










mixing will be fun and fast.


----------



## smoq

Torpedobarb said:


> mix the topsoil and clay I sent you with enough colorquartz to make it about 2" deep at a very thick consistency. thick enough to hold in your hand and form a ball without it falling apart. sprinkle the potash and dolomite on the bottom.. maybe a little peat and put your mud mix in. cap off with another 1.5" of colorquartz.. done deal. makes it easier for the plants to root and reach the nutrients easier. if you look at my journal on like page 45 or so you can see the mixture in my tank before I capped it.. notice how it holds its form... that is the right consistency for it. just make sure you put enough clay into the mix.. it definitely bonds with the soil to hold it all together.
> 
> also to add to the separation issue.. if your topsoil has alot of sand in it then yes the separation of soil in the colorquartz will happen. the stuff I sent you was pure pulverized black dirt with no organics at all. I mineralized it 5x. your soil has little to no sand in it. pure black gold! lol


 One more question torpedobarb- since you have 75g as I do, can you tell me how much colorquartz you used to do that 2" mix ? Thanks.


----------



## milkdud

I'm thinking of getting some cories. What would be a good alternative to CQ "T" for use as a cap? I am looking at growing heavy groundcover with little gravel showing except in heavily shaded areas.

Besides CQ, I've found:
Seachem Onyx Sand 
Carib Sea Tahitian Moon Sand
Carib Sea Eco-Complete 
Seachem Flourite Dark
Seachem Flourite Black Sand

Would these work with cories? Are there others I should be cosidering?
I don't necessarily need dark gravel/sand since it will be covered in plants.


----------



## mistergreen

any sand or round gravel will be loved by cories & loaches.. Not sure about Onyx sand though. It could be sharp.

You can go cheap and buy sand at the hardware store.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

marcinsmok said:


> One more question torpedobarb- since you have 75g as I do, can you tell me how much colorquartz you used to do that 2" mix ? Thanks.


I used just over 1 full bag to do that. I think that if you got it 2" thick it would be fine. I made mine thicker than that so I need more sand now.

Michu... I have some loaches, cories and raphael cats and I haven't had a problem with that? weird.


----------



## michu

Maybe some batches are sharper than others and I was unlucky enough to get an ultra-jagged batch. The day I cleaned the stuff, my hands were raw afterwards. You'd think that would have been a clue for me, but nope... I ran out and bought a bunch of cories. LOL


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

michu said:


> Maybe some batches are sharper than others and I was unlucky enough to get an ultra-jagged batch. The day I cleaned the stuff, my hands were raw afterwards. You'd think that would have been a clue for me, but nope... I ran out and bought a bunch of cories. LOL


I washed mine out for 5 days stirring it up tons. my hands never got raw at all. you must of gotten a sharp batch or maybe even a different grade mispackaged? sorry to hear about the fish.

Ken


----------



## Hoppy

Black blasting grit will certainly mess up your hands when you clean it. I suspect that is what you got.


----------



## michu

It all came in CQ grade T bags.:confused1:


----------



## Coltonorr

Thinking of making a few changes to my MS tank...pulling H. 'sunset' and L. aromatica.
Has anyone grown Rotala macrandra or macrandra 'green' in MS?


----------



## walluby

*Plants*

Hello,

I have read through this thread and I think
someone may have asked, but it would take 
me forever to try and find it. I am going
to prepare some soil. Question: I have a 
tank with plants growing. Can you put all
your existing plants in the new soil set up
or will they melt or back off? Should you
put a bunch of fast growers in while the
mineralized soil and tank go through the 
green period?
I am debating on buying some new plants
now or wait till after the green period.

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## ingg

Coltonorr - Macrandra grows great.

walluby - I've never had anything melt I didn't expect to melt (like some crypts). Fast growers in the beginning are a good idea for any tank method in my opinion.


----------



## walluby

*Soil or dirt*

Hello,

Thanks ingg for the reply. I have another question
for you or Torpedo. I went looking at Lowes and
HD. HD had Natures Pride a couple of months ago
but not now. Lowes had topsoil with other additives.
So I got on the internet and found a fertilizer yard
where they mix ferts and soils. I asked them about
Natures pride. They said no. So I asked if they
just had plain old topsoil, ( it's like dirt ). And they
said yes. So I bought some. This soil is dirt. Bagged
dirt. Looks really good. Almost a gray color. 
Question: Would this be as good as it gets with the
topsoil desired: Correct? How many times would
I need to soak it and dry it? Do you think it is good
enough as is, or does it need to be mineralized?

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## Hoppy

Jeff, I think you can't go wrong by doing the soak, dry, soak, dry etc. process. If your topsoil doesn't need it it won't be harmed in any way by your doing it anyway. But, I did use river silt once with a really bare minimum of mineralizing, and the only bad consequence was that it made the room smell like a swamp for a couple of days. I just had good luck that time.


----------



## ingg

Sounds right. Cheap, no additive, plain old dirt. 


Yes, still mineralize it - you can't hurt it, only help it. The frustrating thing over the interent to explain is that it is a smell thing.

First time in the water, the soup will smell...swampy, ummm, no other way to describe it I can come up with. By 3 or 4 cycles, the smell is gone. It's ready when it doesn't smell anymore.

Hoppy, interesting side note. When this was "created" in this iteration, it was done to emulate some existing aquatic soils in the Mid Atlantic. It makes sense River silt would need a minimum of (or no) mineralization, as with the ebb and surge of river/creek levels, much of the soil in and around a river bed goes through this process on its own (sans adders obviously) on its own.


----------



## mistergreen

I went to buy another bag of top soil (same brand) as before and wow.. there's a difference. It was 70-80% organic matter. It might as well have been garden soil. So I had to dump it in my garden.

So, even within a brand, the soil make-up is completely different.


----------



## walluby

*Contemplating use of soil*

Hello all!

I am on my last wet/dry process of mineralizing soil.
It's summer, and the heat dries out my soil fast.
I was lucky to find some real dirt as topsoil, so
sifting the soil out should take less time. Before
I go on any further, I thought I would ask the 
forum here, because I wanted to know if 
my intended purposes for using the soil is valid.
I currently have Eco in my 60 gallon. I also have
Discus. Plants are doing well. Fish are too. I want
to change over to using sand, (pool sand), and
I thought I would add a nutrient base mineralized
soil and cap it with sand. Anyone have any comments
about this approach. My concern is water changes.
With this method it is O.K. to have fewer water changes.
But my Discus require more frequent changes. I thought
I would let the tank prime for about 2 months and then
add the fish. Doing few water changes in the beginning.
Question: As the tank matures can I then do frequent
water changes for the Discus and not have to worry about
algae outbreaks? Also will the ph be O.K. by the time
I want to add fish?

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## wkndracer

Hey Ken,
568 at last look on your string and want advice. Save my eyes and night please. I've chosen original flourite for the cap matching the other four tanks. The MS from the two 75g kits ended up being a 1/2" layer in the 110g tank (18" X 60"). How deep IYO can I layer the inert cap?

Soon to be one finger typing and posting on another MS journal.:icon_mrgr


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

walluby said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I am on my last wet/dry process of mineralizing soil.
> It's summer, and the heat dries out my soil fast.
> I was lucky to find some real dirt as topsoil, so
> sifting the soil out should take less time. Before
> I go on any further, I thought I would ask the
> forum here, because I wanted to know if
> my intended purposes for using the soil is valid.
> I currently have Eco in my 60 gallon. I also have
> Discus. Plants are doing well. Fish are too. I want
> to change over to using sand, (pool sand), and
> I thought I would add a nutrient base mineralized
> soil and cap it with sand. Anyone have any comments
> about this approach. My concern is water changes.
> With this method it is O.K. to have fewer water changes.
> But my Discus require more frequent changes. I thought
> I would let the tank prime for about 2 months and then
> add the fish. Doing few water changes in the beginning.
> Question: As the tank matures can I then do frequent
> water changes for the Discus and not have to worry about
> algae outbreaks? Also will the ph be O.K. by the time
> I want to add fish?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff


water changes are not needed as frequent but do not hurt to do on a regular basis. I do about a 20% water change once a week. basically enough to clean up the poo of the bottom. then I just refill with tap water and prime. Discus are finicky fish and I would worry about the fish before the plants. plants will adapt to their environment easier than the fish will. you should have no problems with doing routine water changes.



wkndracer said:


> Hey Ken,
> 568 at last look on your string and want advice. Save my eyes and night please. I've chosen original flourite for the cap matching the other four tanks. The MS from the two 75g kits ended up being a 1/2" layer in the 110g tank (18" X 60"). How deep IYO can I layer the inert cap?
> 
> Soon to be one finger typing and posting on another MS journal.:icon_mrgr


you can make it a total of whatever you want but I don't usually go any deeper than 3" total in the back and about 1.5 in the front. basically a personal preference really. you don't want it too shallow because the plants need a good base to hold on to. if it is really deep it will take the plants longer to establish a good root base because of how deep they have to go to get to the nutrients.

my tank now has about 2.5" or so of topsoil/clayloam mixed with colorquartz and then topped off with about another 1.5" of colorquartz. it made the nutrient layer much thicker so the plants don't have to strain as hard to get to it. over time the two will separate and the sediment will settle at the bottom which is ok because the nutrients will still be there and the roots will be established.

I do dose my water column still. macro's and micros with minimal amounts of them on opposite days. just making sure the plants have the proper nutrients and prolongs the life of the sediment.

Ken


----------



## daverockssocks

So I have an exceedingly clean lake by my house, can I steal some dirt from that and mineralize it? I'm having a hard time finding plain top soil, seems every place has potting soil or compost.


----------



## CL

daverockssocks said:


> So I have an exceedingly clean lake by my house, can I steal some dirt from that and mineralize it? I'm having a hard time finding plain top soil, seems every place has potting soil or compost.


I have used clay from my backyard with great success, and I didn't do anything to it, just capped it with sand. EBB has done the same with river silt. 
Try it, it should work


----------



## daverockssocks

Well I bought two bags of Jolly Gardener top soil and was less than surprised to find nearly 40% of it is sticks and bark mulch, I even got a fist sized stone!

Wrote them an angry email and now I'm off to sift out the big stuff.


----------



## walluby

*50 lb. bags of Mineralized Soil*

Hello all!

Well it's been a month and I fully prepared
my mineralized soil. The soil after sifting 
through the mesh screen was as soft as
makeup powder. Awesome! I mixed my soil
with 3 - 1 sand and soil, put 2.5 inches 
in my tank, and capping with 1" of sand.
I placed my plants in with a new scape.
They were once happy, green and healthy
plants. After 3 days they look terrible.
But showing a little sign of recovery today.
I did a water change and got rid of the
decaying leaves. I hope this stuff works.
BTW - I have two bags of mineralized
soil left, each weighing about 50 lbs.
If anyone is interested in buying them
from me. I think the going rate is
$40 each. I can't pay for shipping.
Let me know!

Thanks,

jeff


----------



## CL

What do you think would happen if you did mineralized soil capped with aquasoil "powder"?


----------



## daverockssocks

I've decided screening the soil is the absolute worst part of this project. I just spent 2 hours screening and lost about 7lbs of my original 40lb bag which was comprised mostly of bark mulch, gravel and even a few pieces of broken glass. 

My neighbors also think I'm nuts after watching me do this.

"What's that for?"
My fish tank.
"Oh" turns and walks away.


----------



## oldpunk78

^ x2 my back hurts too form being bent over for so long, lol.


----------



## oldpunk78

double post woot! 

just as i got finished laying my mud out on a tarp in the backyard i had a terrible thought. - there are tons of cats that i see back there all the time. lol, i hope i don't get any extra nutrients from the cats.


----------



## daverockssocks

Lol!


----------



## mistergreen

I skipped the who screening process. I skimmed off the woody parts and don't mind the sand and gravel.

yeah, watch out for cat and bird poop.


----------



## illumnae

I managed to find some $2 (singapore dollars) bags of soil. The lady at the store called it topsoil. It's dark brown, slightly moist but upon close examination you can see that it's grainy. I don't see much sticks and stuff though.

However, when I called them again to enquire, they told me it was a mix of burnt soil and black soil...so i'm rather confused...is it the same thing?

edit: Ok I just called them again for further clarification. They informed me that what they called "topsoil" was actually their own "mix" of soil and included things like fertilizers, compost, cocopeat etc. What they sold me they called "mix soil" which is like i mentioned above a mix of burnt soil and black soil. They told me that this "mix soil" is similar to what you dig up from the ground and comes with no other additives. They just mix it themselves instead of digging it up. It is also good enough in nutrients to grow stuff like bamboo, bouganvillea flowers etc. So did I get the right thing?


----------



## illumnae

Anyone able to advise? I'm trying to get this done before a public holiday long weekend so that I can tear down the tank and redo the substrate over the long weekend


----------



## dewalltheway

Ok....first you said they told you quote "They informed me that what they called "topsoil" was actually their own "mix" of soil and included things like *fertilizers*, compost, cocopeat etc"

Then you said they said quote "They told me that this "mix soil" is similar to what you dig up from the ground and comes with *no other additives*."

Now...is there fertilizers or so called additives in this mix or not? If there is, you don't want it. You want a topsoil with no additives. Do you have a landscape place close to you that would have bulk topsoil? If you do, I would check with them and see if you could get a few 5 gal bucket fulls and they might not even charge you for it. Just make sure you ask them if their are any additives in the soil.


----------



## dewalltheway

I thought it might be helpful to some if I post some pics of the process I went thru to get my soil so here it is..
The Top Soil...








The rinse cycle...








The Dry...
















End of drying..








First screening..








First screening product..








Fine Screening...








Mineralized soil....

















Any questions, please ask.

Also, a *BIG* thank you to Torpedobarb for answering all my questions and helping me thru my first time doing this.


----------



## illumnae

dewalltheway said:


> Ok....first you said they told you quote "They informed me that what they called "topsoil" was actually their own "mix" of soil and included things like *fertilizers*, compost, cocopeat etc"
> 
> Then you said they said quote "They told me that this "mix soil" is similar to what you dig up from the ground and comes with *no other additives*."
> 
> Now...is there fertilizers or so called additives in this mix or not? If there is, you don't want it. You want a topsoil with no additives. Do you have a landscape place close to you that would have bulk topsoil? If you do, I would check with them and see if you could get a few 5 gal bucket fulls and they might not even charge you for it. Just make sure you ask them if their are any additives in the soil.


Thanks for the response  The thing is, the thing they labelled "topsoil" is the one they added all sorts of stuff. The thing they labelled "mix soil", which is what i bought, they say is a mix of black soil and burnt soil, and comes with no other additives. It's the names that are confusing me! "mix soil", which i have, sounds like what you call "topsoil".

I'm in Singapore not in the US, hence our nurseries here call things by different names and i'm so confused.


----------



## dewalltheway

illumnae said:


> Thanks for the response  The thing is, the thing they labelled "topsoil" is the one they added all sorts of stuff. The thing they labelled "mix soil", which is what i bought, they say is a mix of black soil and burnt soil, and comes with no other additives. It's the names that are confusing me! "mix soil", which i have, sounds like what you call "topsoil".
> 
> I'm in Singapore not in the US, hence our nurseries here call things by different names and i'm so confused.


I would say if the bag says "No Additives" then the "mix" part is just that they are mixing 2 different types of soil together and you should be ok. You just don't want any soil where additives and fertilizers have been added. Hope this helps.


----------



## topfrog007

Anyone know if Forest Magic Topsoil - (Home depot) or Natures Way Topsoil - (Walmart) will work? Doesn't say anything about fertilizer on the bag, although I'd say 10-20% of the bags are sticks/mulch.


----------



## illumnae

dewalltheway said:


> I would say if the bag says "No Additives" then the "mix" part is just that they are mixing 2 different types of soil together and you should be ok. You just don't want any soil where additives and fertilizers have been added. Hope this helps.


Ok cool, so a mixture of burnt soil and black soil with no other additives will be ok for mineralized topsoil in my tank?


----------



## illumnae

Went to the largest nursery chain in the country today and finally found my topsoil! Apparently what the other nursery called "black soil" is actually topsoil. The "soil mix" i got, was topsoil with burnt soil mixed in to improve drainage. I bought myself 35 litres of topsoil and started the soak process. From my calculation, I need about 18 litres of final MTS. Taking into account 50% disappearing during the soak/dry, adding 5-10% clay and some water to make it batter, i figure 35 litres would be just right.

I hope I do the mineralization correctly!


----------



## illumnae

3rd consecutive post from me, i feel like i'm talking to myself!

Anyhow, I've done a survey of all nurseries and hydroponic farms that I know of locally and I can't get KCl or dolomite. Coral chips and Epsom salts are readily available here so that's no issue.

I'm wondering if KH2PO4 will be an acceptable substitute for KCl under the soil, or would it have to be mineralized together with the soil like K2SO4?


----------



## radiocognition

illumnae said:


> 3rd consecutive post from me, i feel like i'm talking to myself!
> 
> Anyhow, I've done a survey of all nurseries and hydroponic farms that I know of locally and I can't get KCl or dolomite. Coral chips and Epsom salts are readily available here so that's no issue.
> 
> I'm wondering if KH2PO4 will be an acceptable substitute for KCl under the soil, or would it have to be mineralized together with the soil like K2SO4?


Just order the KCl from a chemical supplier.  Here is a link to fisher scientific. 25 grams will cost you about 25 bucks. Chip in with a bunch of your other aquarium buddies and buy more KCl than any of you will need for years.


----------



## illumnae

Thanks for your recommendation  Unfortunately I'm in Singapore so I don't think that option is available to me. The only place I managed to find Muriate of Potash aka KCl is a farm fertilizers retail outlet, and they carry their KCl in minimum quantities of 50kg (about 25lbs) for S$100 (about Us$65). That's way too much for me unfortunately. Dolomite is just not available. The best I can find is Dolomite Lime, which I should avoid.

I'm now toying with the idea of mineralizing 2 bottles of Seachem Equilibrium with the soil. From the listed ingredients of Seachem Equilibrium, it contains K in the form of Potassium Sulphate, Mg in the form of Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium in the form of Calcium Carbonate. Isn't this the exact elements required under the substrate in the "ideal recipe" as listed by AaronT? The only concern that I can see is that the SO4 portion of K2SO4 and MgSO4 may lead to eventual problems in the form of Sulphur Dioxide. However, it has been suggested that if K2SO4 and MgSO4 are mineralized together with the topsoil, this problem would be mitigated as the SO4 would be mineralized too.

What does everyone think of mineralizing Seachem Equilibrium together with the soil as an alternative to the dolomite + muriate of potash?

Of course, alternatively, I could just mineralize the soil as is, put coral chips + epsom salts under the substrate and just dose K2SO4 from week 1


----------



## illumnae

Ugh yet another query. Wikipedia listed epsom salts as MgSO4. If that's the case, why are epsom salts a suitable replacement despite being a sulphate, when potassium sulphate is a poor replacement because it is a sulphate?


----------



## joejdsn

i will be setting up my tank with MS soon, and i had a question.
i know that i'm supposed to sprinkle dolomite and muriate of potash on the bottom. i also happen to have some laterite around. i was wondering, if it would be okay to go ahead and sprinkle some laterite as well?


----------



## daverockssocks

Laterite is rich in iron, as is clay. I don't see why you would need both but laterite may serve as a substitute for those having troubles getting the clay.


----------



## joejdsn

thanks for the reply. i wasn't looking to add both, it's just that i happened to have a bag of laterite laying around is all.


----------



## Shadow

I was wondering if anyone could tell me how much clay I would need for a 75g tank?

I'm thinking of doing this on my 75g South American before getting it all set up. Otherwise I needed to buy more substrate, as I want my substrate at least 2" for all the swords. This tanks going to be almost nothing but swords. And seeing they like Iron I thought this a good substitution for buying more Eco.

Should I add more clay to the mix seeing the tanks going to be full of Iron loving plants??


----------



## walluby

*Brown dust*

Hey there!

I have put mineralized soil in my 60 gallon and have
planted with crypts, anubias, and assorted stem plants.
It has been up and running for about 2-3 months. Plants
are doing O.K. I have a fluval 404 running. But,I have this
brown dust that forms on my leaves and on my 
driftwood. I can brush it off and siphon it with wc's.
But I want to know what is causing it and can I get
rid of it somehow. Will this go away when the
tank becomes more aged and balanced. Also my
setup is with low light no Co2. I can set up Co2
if that is the solution. I also dose Excel.

Thanks,

Jeff


----------



## gdcox76

I have a question regarding Nitrate and phosphate readings in a tank with Mineralized soil. I have tested repeatedly since my cycle completed and both are at "0" and I expect will stay that way with no addition of ferts. Is this normal? Should I be concerned?


----------



## SCMurphy

walluby said:


> Hey there!
> 
> I have put mineralized soil in my 60 gallon and have
> planted with crypts, anubias, and assorted stem plants.
> It has been up and running for about 2-3 months. Plants
> are doing O.K. I have a fluval 404 running. But,I have this
> brown dust that forms on my leaves and on my
> driftwood. I can brush it off and siphon it with wc's.
> But I want to know what is causing it and can I get
> rid of it somehow. Will this go away when the
> tank becomes more aged and balanced. Also my
> setup is with low light no Co2. I can set up Co2
> if that is the solution. I also dose Excel.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jeff


The brown dust is diatoms, usually caused by low light levels. Oto cats love them, if you can fit them into your population get a couple. CO2 seems to benefit all planted tanks. You can run tanks without it, I do, but you will like the results if you add it.


----------



## SCMurphy

gdcox76 said:


> I have a question regarding Nitrate and phosphate readings in a tank with Mineralized soil. I have tested repeatedly since my cycle completed and both are at "0" and I expect will stay that way with no addition of ferts. Is this normal? Should I be concerned?


What kind of plants are in the tank? How do they look?


----------



## daverockssocks

I changed over my 55g rainbow tank on Saturday (fish are living in a 54g rubbermaid tub now) how long should I let things go before adding the fish back?

Ammonia is reading 0 and Nitrates are showing a little less than 10 ppm, which is the average for all my tanks pretty much. I reused the flourite that had been in the tank for 2 years. It never got dried out and I transitioned in about an hour so I think the bacteria in the flourite is still viable.

Right now the tank is circulating with a 120gph AQ powerhead and a 300gph QuietOne pump powering my 10watt UV sterilzer. I'd like to get my XP3 back on the tank but I have to keep it on the the livestock tub.


----------



## SCMurphy

If the ammonia is reading 0 you should be good to go. I'm assuming you have the tank planted already.


----------



## khanzer22

Hi,

Been hearing/reading good reviews about mineralizing topsoil so I'm pumped to do this on my 120gal tank...

Though brand-wise, has anybody tried *Coast of Maine* Monhegan Blend Black Earth Topsoil??? Distributor/Supplier of Nature's Pride covers only up to NJ and I'm from CT... 

link here: coastofmaineDOTcom/soils-monheganDOTshtml


Thanks in advance!


----------



## bradac56

That says it's pine bark and sand I'm not sure if I would use it personally the last time I did a MTS setup I used non-ferted top-soil (no pine bark or sand just plane dirt). I've used the pine bark stuff before and it's never turned out well for me.

Plus you'll be able to find it cheap locally at landscaping or orchard supply stores.

- Brad


----------



## khanzer22

Thanks for the quick response Brad... 

What topsoil brand name do you recommend aside from Nature's Pride? What did you use?

I'll probably visit some garden center/stores around my area after work...


----------



## bradac56

The brand really doesn't matter as long as it says "non-fertilized" and isn't pine bark and sand.

- Brad


----------



## khanzer22

Got it... Will turn all garden stores here upside down to find one... Most probably will get it from here http://www.dirtguytopsoil.com/topsoil_for_sale.htm... A few miles drive won't hurt... 

Thanks again...


----------



## SCMurphy

The recommendation to use top soil is because it is the closest soil to being mineralized available, and the least likely to have chemical additions. You can start with any organic potting type soil you want (except that pine bark/sand combo), it will just take longer to mineralize it. If you use a potting soil or 'improved' top soil, it is best to soak and change the water a couple times before you start the mineralization process to make sure to wash away possible pesticides and herbicides. After that, it is the same routine, wet and dry until the soil smells clean and not like rotting vegetation when you wet it.


----------



## khanzer22

Just returned home from my trip all around neighboring towns and had no luck finding the right topsoil to mineralize... Most gardent centers either stopped selling or they have hybrids (either with fert/peat/vermiculite in it)... Really hard to find this time in the Northeast area... I phoned the dirt guy dude and he asked me to call him back on Wednesday to check if they're gonna make some more of their topsoils (sigh...)...

Does anyone here selling the minerlaized soil? I'm interested on acquiring a few lbs for my 120gal tank...


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, I have been researching Sean's mineralized soil for a while now and decided to set up a 2.5 gallon with mineralized and see how it goes. I bought some a while back already made, but my cat thought it was litter...... Anyway, I bought this type and as I was filling up the bucket with water, something caught my eye. I just paid 1.39 for something in my area! :hihi:


----------



## daverockssocks

My tank has been up for 9 days now:


I'm very happy so far.


----------



## sewingalot

So I have a question. Should I screen the soil each time it goes through it's drying phase or just when it is ready for the tank?


----------



## lauraleellbp

I screened mine several times just b/c each time I pulled out more twigs & bark.


----------



## sewingalot

daverockssocks said:


> My tank has been up for 9 days now:
> 
> 
> I'm very happy so far.


Wow, that sword is beautiful! Are you going to dose in addition? I am setting mine up without dosing anything extra.



lauraleellbp said:


> I screened mine several times just b/c each time I pulled out more twigs & bark.


Thanks. Did you feel like you were making mud pies? My neighbors now think I am regressing to my childhood. I must have gotten lucky. So far, there isn't much debris. Just good ole' dirt.


----------



## daverockssocks

I haven't decided whether I'll dose the water column or not. I need to order new ferts anyway so the decision will come quickly. Most likely I will still dose but not a full EI cycle.


----------



## topfrog007

Quick question on MTS. I have been planning a tank setup which has taken me much longer than expected. Three months ago I went through the MTS "cycle" of rinsing/soaking and spreading out to dry, I did it 4 times. However for the past 2 months the MTS has just been sitting in the bucket outside, will any negative effects come from it being in there for 2 months? Will I have to re-cycle it?


----------



## plantbrain

lauraleellbp said:


> I screened mine several times just b/c each time I pulled out more twigs & bark.


A wheel barrow and fire ember screen works dandy if you do screen of the soils.
Get a water hose and spray the soil through.

Decant the water off, allow to settle.
Speeds the mineralization up also.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## sewingalot

plantbrain said:


> A wheel barrow and fire ember screen works dandy if you do screen of the soils.
> Get a water hose and spray the soil through.
> 
> Decant the water off, allow to settle.
> Speeds the mineralization up also.
> 
> Regards,
> Tom Barr


Excellent tip! Thanks for the great idea.


----------



## khanzer22

Like this? 

http://images.google.com/url?source...00.jpg&usg=AFQjCNExBCPOQDgU9fom6R_6fNcTvZBVjA


----------



## sewingalot

khanzer22 said:


> Like this?
> 
> http://images.google.com/url?source...00.jpg&usg=AFQjCNExBCPOQDgU9fom6R_6fNcTvZBVjA


Thanks for the visual.  The soil was almost dry and it rained last night! Does this hurt the process? Do I need to start over?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

sewingalot said:


> Thanks for the visual.  The soil was almost dry and it rained last night! Does this hurt the process? Do I need to start over?


it won't hurt anything. I have left it out in the rain and it just basically gave it when dry another cycle.


----------



## sewingalot

Thanks, Ken! When are you going to update that beautiful tank of yours?


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

lol... when I ever get time to. I haven't been on much lately here or anywhere. I have been working sooooo much overtime lately I don't have time for much else. I am thinking about getting rid of most of my stem plants and going to mainly taller crypts in the back. I am tired of all of the maintenance with the stems. I will keep a few but all the rest gone


----------



## Kisho3

would this be an okay source of muriate of potash: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HHOD40/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=

and would it be okay to use crushed coral meant for salt water aquariums in the formula? It would be nice if someone can direct me to a source of clay and tell me what to buy. Please include pics of the clay.

sorry eating and typing with one hand ;]


----------



## Dalban

Kisho3 said:


> would this be an okay source of muriate of potash: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000HHOD40/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=


Anyone looking for muriate of potash, should consider searching for potassium chloride on ebay. (Potassium Chloride, is the same as Muriate of Potash.) I regularly see 3 pounds going for $9 (incl shipping). Not only is this pretty reasonable price-wise, but what you're getting is likely to be a lot purer than some fertilizer concoction you buy at a gardening place.


----------



## agoins

Has anyone tried using soil like out of a lake bed, or mountains some where? How much would a person need for a 130 gallon?


----------



## Kisho3

Dalban said:


> Anyone looking for muriate of potash, should consider searching for potassium chloride on ebay. (Potassium Chloride, is the same as Muriate of Potash.) I regularly see 3 pounds going for $9 (incl shipping). Not only is this pretty reasonable price-wise, but what you're getting is likely to be a lot purer than some fertilizer concoction you buy at a gardening place.


Are there any precautions necessary? I was browsing on ebay, and by the warnings of it . . . I don't feel too confident. is it safe? It looks like sugar. And something dangerous.


----------



## sewingalot

Look at the ingredients in No-Salt or Morton's brand of Lite-salt: http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/foodsalts/Lite_Salt.htm 

It contains potassium chloride. However, do NOT go tasting it! Used for it's intended purpose in our case - fertilizing plants - is fine. I am not sure if it can be replaced for muriate of potash, though. I'll leave that part up to the others to answer.


----------



## SCMurphy

topfrog007 said:


> Quick question on MTS. I have been planning a tank setup which has taken me much longer than expected. Three months ago I went through the MTS "cycle" of rinsing/soaking and spreading out to dry, I did it 4 times. However for the past 2 months the MTS has just been sitting in the bucket outside, will any negative effects come from it being in there for 2 months? Will I have to re-cycle it?


If it was done it shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## RipariumGuy

This is a great sticky! 

All in all, how much would it cost to make enough for a 20g high?


----------



## Dalban

sewingalot said:


> Look at the ingredients in No-Salt or Morton's brand of Lite-salt: http://www.mortonsalt.com/products/foodsalts/Lite_Salt.htm


Salt-lite also includes a lot of salt blended with iodide among other things -- this is probably not what you want. A more reasonable alternative might be Morton's "Salt Substitute" which claims to be a "potassium chloride product." Check to see whether it has anything else in it. Alternatively, just find "Muriate of Potash" or "Potassium Chloride"


----------



## tommyleestaples

I was planning on buying Tetra Complete Substrate & Eco Complete and mixing together. Would this have the same effect for my planted aquarium?


----------



## Chafire

http://www.amazon.com/Kal-Dolomite-16-oz-Powder/dp/B00020HVU0


Would this work for the dolomite part of the mixture? It is dolomite powder but is meant for people to ingest but I would think it would be fine to use. Just don't see a point to ordering a 40lb bag of it for $5 when shipping would cost $20+.


----------



## Olskule

*Dolomite or Crushed Coral?*

Would crushed coral work instead of dolomite? I have tubs of the stuff in storage from when I kept marine tanks, but I don't think any of it is dolomite, and I know there is is a "slight" (depending upon who you ask) difference in the two, dolomite being said to be less soluble.


----------



## jeremy0247

I found some self-hardening clay at a local craft store. It is called mexican pottery clay in moist form. Is there anyway to find out if this is usable in MTS? It is an Amaco product and their website doesn't say what is actually in it. It does say to not fire in kiln. Does this mean it has polymers in it? Also I found some Morton Potassium chloride pellets used for soft water. is this usable also? The only reason I ask is because all this is local and easy to obtain. Thanks for help, Jeremy


----------



## pianofish

Has anyone tried using kitty litter instead of clay?, supposedly kitty litter is made from clay.


----------



## Firestarter

I am not sure if it would work but if you buy all natural clay cat litter you could use that but it may not give you the same effect as the pottery clay. I have only used clay and pea pebbles.


----------



## plantbrain

Coral and aragonite(same stuff for the most part), and calicite and dolomite all dissolve at different rates, dolomite is much more resistant.

If you pour vinegar(low levels of acetic acid) on dolomite, it will not foam, the other two should. Acetic acid is a common by product in wetland soils via bacterial actions.

Dolomite has the added benefit of Mg also whereas the above two really lack much. 

You can address that by using MgSO4 in the trace mixture for liquid dosing as most plants take up Mg and Ca via the water column anyway.

I do not think it's that critical, but adding it will not hurt either, so if you add it, you have that base covered either way you think about it.

Dolomite can be bought at most rock sand suppliers, they sell it sometimes as pool sand, sometimes as white sands for aesthetic purposes etc. 4$ gets me 100lb sacks.

I'm not so sure buying all this stuff is the point of a mineralized sediment.
Being cheap and DIY is the point I thought.

I go out and dig up some nice clay alluvial soil at a bank of a nice clean stream, river, lake etc. Rinse through a screen with a hose, let settle, and then dry it out some.

It's ready to go from there.

I'd also vote for cat litter vs potting clay, cheaper and already in grains.
I'd mix with your soil well and then soak.

The cat litter and clay will bind things like the NH4/K+ making it(the sediment) be fertile longer, but K+ is taken up via the leaves mostly anyway. Likewise, over time, the NH4 is aggressively attacked by roots and also by bacteria and only the NO3(taken up or further converted to N2 gas which is also lost) is left which does not bind(which is why NO3 ends up in ground water and is persistent).

In typical wetland clay soils, there's plenty of nutrients, just not much N.
After 18 months with ADA as and with delta cays, both had very little NH4 and NO3 left. Other nutrients where still quite high. This was with good water column dosing.

Initial levels of N are very high for most of these types of soils we use, but N drops considerably over time.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## jeremy0247

So if one was to use cruched coral instead of dolomite, could you use a little epsom salt with it to make up for the lost Mg? Also would you have to crush the coral to a finer grain before use?


----------



## pianofish

So I just started with this method two days ago, and today I am on my first dry cycle. I first sifted through the dirt then allowed it to sit in big plastic containers for 2 days. Before I spread it onto the tarp, it had the consistancy of a mixture between cake batter and wet cement. Have I been doing it correctly so far? Also what is the best method for getting the dried dirt off of the tarp? And lastly how long does the dirt need to soak between dryings? And do you need to do a water change as in the initial wet phase?

Thanks a bunch,
Your pal,


----------



## plantbrain

jeremy0247 said:


> So if one was to use cruched coral instead of dolomite, could you use a little epsom salt with it to make up for the lost Mg? Also would you have to crush the coral to a finer grain before use?


Yes, or do water change if the tap has some Mg, the CMS+B also has some, but one could simply add a bit more of the epsom salt and that would address any Mg issue easy enough.

It's not hard to add Ca, Mg, K+, NO3, etc to a trace mix.
Then you are still only dosing one thing. You can also dose the KH2PO4 every so often from another solution or dry etc.

I do not think these are all that critical, you simply add some Mg to a solution you dose anyway. Common sense solution and provides a back up should the Mg run lower than the demand by plants.

Sediment can act as a back up for water column dosing, but the flip side is that the water column can provide a back up to the sediment.

This way no matter what you do, you are okay. Still, I'd opt for dolomite if you can find it. But it's hardly the end of the world if not........most clay soils have plenty. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr

Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## Phil Edwards

AaronT said:


> It still doesn't answer my question how those same plants uptake K when growing emergent. It has to be through the roots.


Aaron,

Terrestrial plants do take up some K through their roots, that's for sure. They also get a substantial amount through deposition of dust and other mineral-bearing particles directly onto their stems and leaves. There's also quite a bit, relatively speaking, available in rain. 

Cheers,
Phil


----------



## plantbrain

Phil Edwards said:


> Aaron,
> 
> Terrestrial plants do take up some K through their roots, that's for sure. They also get a substantial amount through deposition of dust and other mineral-bearing particles directly onto their stems and leaves. There's also quite a bit, relatively speaking, available in rain.
> 
> Cheers,
> Phil


Sure it does, bulk water movement through transpirational pull, which is virtually absent/lacking and not required in a submersed condition.

Once the leaves hit the surface and the water level declines, *emergent leaves form with far more water conducting vascular tissues* and support. Soil pore water in such wetlands, soils is still rich in K+, and it comes in via the roots along with the water, just like many other dissolved nutrients in the same media that they where in while submersed...

Water

Plants are opportunistic, they will take in virtually any and everything from either the root or the leaves. Same for marine plants and tidally influenced areas.

High and dry, or submersed, or rich nutrients in the water column, or rich in the sediments or all of the above. Terrestrial plants also take up nutrients foliarly, that's how 95% of all ornamental house plants and landscape plants are grown in fact, the soil is just sand and bark. This is due to soil pathogen issues. They spray them with nutrient solution. I can take folks to quite a few large nursery operations, you'll see sprinklers and catch basins using this method. Got dozens near here.

So it works both ways.
So it does have to be through the roots where fertigation is not done, say in natural systems, but in nurseries, they use foilar applications of K+, which can be taken in via the leaf, along with most other nutrients very readily.
That's how Tropica, Picese, FAN etc does it.



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## ridiculous

Would Morrocan Powdered Red Clay work for a mixture with MTS?


----------



## Tylt33

Does anyone know if "Kellogg's Garden Soil" is appropriate for the MTS process? Ingredients are: Composted forest humus, compost, composted chicken manure, worm castings, kelp meal, and bat guano. With oyster and dolomite limes (pH adjusters).


----------



## pianofish

Hey guys quick question about MTS,
I've had a lot of bubbles coming out from my substrate, I have 1/2 inch to 3/4inch MTS capped in 3/4 to 1inch of Flourite. My tank is ownly a month old, is this normal, and does this mean that bacteria are just breaking down any leftover organics in the MTS? Should I try to release these bubbles with poking and prodding, or adding malaysian trumpet snaills?
Thanks,
Your pal,


----------



## lauraleellbp

If you aren't smelling sulphur and it doesn't seem to be bothering your fish or plants, then it's probably CO2 bubbles. But I'd still get some MTS (as in the snails...)


----------



## pianofish

Okay, thanks and I'll look into investing in MTSnails, hopefully my snail assassins will leave them alone.
Thanks again,


----------



## tomatoe

i called my local nurseries and they don't seem to have 0-0-60 potash but they do have a sulfur potassium 0-0-20. Does anyone know if this can be substituted for the 0-0-60 potash? Or anyone in San diego area want to sell me some 0-0-60 potash?


----------



## default user

Im sure this as been asked many times on here, but I just can't read through all 44 pages. So I apologize in advanced.

Well the red clay in my yard work? Also can this be topped with other sands like pool sand?


----------



## 00nothing

Looking at using this method in my 40 gallon breeder bought 2 bags of topsoil today that I am going to start mineralizing but couple of qustions for the dolomite is this stuff here what i am after if so i ahve tons used it as a substrate in my last reef tank


























and if it is the right stuff anyone in canada want to trade for some clay 

also I had tried planted before with no knowledge 8 gallon biocube complete bag of eco-complete and ran the lights damn near all the time it was the prettiest algae farm u can imagine but when i tore it down i saved the substrate now i would imagine rinsing it off and using it as a cap shouldnt be a problem BUT at some point my cat took a dump in the bucket is this now garbage or will removing the offending turd and then rinsing be enough

thanks


----------



## farmhand

What causes the slit to separate from the soil during this process? Is it mechanical, chemical, biological? Not referring to the shifting process when it is done to remove the slit, but rather what causes this separation during the soaking/drying process?


----------



## GoldenTetra

I have a question about the clay and top soil...
My father deals in excavation, so I could get the top soil free... and, natural clay to. Can I use the natural stuff or should I use only the bought stuff. If I do use the natural, do I need to worry about bugs?


----------



## farmhand

GoldenTetra said:


> I have a question about the clay and top soil...
> My father deals in excavation, so I could get the top soil free... and, natural clay to. Can I use the natural stuff or should I use only the bought stuff. If I do use the natural, do I need to worry about bugs?


Yes, soil from the ground is ok to use, however not all soil is created equal. If you do not garden yourself, ask someone who does if they think it is good soil. The difference would be you are removing any organics from the soil with this process wherein a gardener would want them. Follow the instructions on the first page and you shouldn't have bugs. But then you never know.

For the record, I have a good understanding of soil, not necessarily this process.


----------



## SCMurphy

Tylt33 said:


> Does anyone know if "Kellogg's Garden Soil" is appropriate for the MTS process? Ingredients are: Composted forest humus, compost, composted chicken manure, worm castings, kelp meal, and bat guano. With oyster and dolomite limes (pH adjusters).


You will spend a VERY long time mineralizing this mix. You can use it, just don't expect it to be ready as quickly as a 'non-enriched' topsoil. You might have a usable soil in a year or so.


----------



## SCMurphy

default user said:


> Im sure this as been asked many times on here, but I just can't read through all 44 pages. So I apologize in advanced.
> 
> Well the red clay in my yard work? Also can this be topped with other sands like pool sand?


Most of the people doing the MTS will not know how your yard dirt will work. We haven't seen it or tried it. Feel free to push it through the process and give it a shot. Report back on if it works.


----------



## SCMurphy

GoldenTetra said:


> I have a question about the clay and top soil...
> My father deals in excavation, so I could get the top soil free... and, natural clay to. Can I use the natural stuff or should I use only the bought stuff. If I do use the natural, do I need to worry about bugs?


Most of the people doing the MTS will not know how that dirt will work. We haven't seen it or tried it. Feel free to push it through the process and give it a shot. Report back on if it works. Submerging the soil should kill terrestrial bugs. The Soaking process should reduce the amounts of applied yard chemicals if any. The only things that would make it through the process are bacteria, fungi, and algae that can "encyst" or have some adaptation to survive drying out.


----------



## SCMurphy

farmhand said:


> What causes the slit to separate from the soil during this process? Is it mechanical, chemical, biological? Not referring to the shifting process when it is done to remove the slit, but rather what causes this separation during the soaking/drying process?


We are not trying to remove silt. Silt will separate out from larger particles just because that's how it works. Large particles end up on top and small stuff sifts through to the bottom. But we are not trying to mechanically remove the silt from the soil.


----------



## SCMurphy

00nothing said:


> Looking at using this method in my 40 gallon breeder bought 2 bags of topsoil today that I am going to start mineralizing but couple of qustions for the dolomite is this stuff here what i am after if so i ahve tons used it as a substrate in my last reef tank
> 
> and if it is the right stuff anyone in canada want to trade for some clay
> thanks


Use the granular substrate from your reef tank, that is the right kind of dolomite. Rinse it well, get rid of excess salts. There is a product called dolomite that is sold for gardening that is very fine, highly processed, and dissolves instantly in water, don't use this dolomite.


----------



## SCMurphy

tomatoe said:


> i called my local nurseries and they don't seem to have 0-0-60 potash but they do have a sulfur potassium 0-0-20. Does anyone know if this can be substituted for the 0-0-60 potash? Or anyone in San diego area want to sell me some 0-0-60 potash?


For the amount of potassium we are using in the recipe you can use the sulfur potassium you have available. Use a very light scatter as you would for the other product. Do not add more, more is not better, you do not want to add a huge amount of sulfur to the bottom of the substrate.


----------



## SCMurphy

ridiculous said:


> Would Morrocan Powdered Red Clay work for a mixture with MTS?


Most of the people doing the MTS will not know how some other clay will work. We haven't seen it or tried it. Feel free to push it through the process and give it a shot. Report back on if it works. Pretty much as long as it is not a polymer clay you should be fine


----------



## SCMurphy

jeremy0247 said:


> So if one was to use cruched coral instead of dolomite, could you use a little epsom salt with it to make up for the lost Mg? Also would you have to crush the coral to a finer grain before use?


Yeah you can add a little Epsom salt to make up for the Mg missing in the crushed coral. Don't worry about the grain size as long as it is normal size for an aquarium gravel or smaller.


----------



## farmhand

First of all, thanks for taking time to answer everyone's questions.:angel:
I have read through the entire thread, plus have done more reading on the subject on the web. There's a lot of info on "how to" but not so much as to "why" this process works. Spent the last month soaking and drying top soil from Walmart and found it to be mainly wood chips. I have plenty of good soil where I live and thought to give it a try.

What does the soaking do? If you were to spread out the soil on a tarp and keep it moist so that it is always drying out, would this work? Why would it or not?


----------



## jargonchipmunk

you need the wet/dry cycles. It's bacteria that colonize the soil that "mineralize" it. In very layman's terms, you want to end up with bacteria poop as a substrate. This is why the soil changes so much in consistency (because it's run through the digestive "tract" of trillions of bacteria) It gets rid of urea, ammonia, non-bio available forms of nutrients, etc and leaves you with all the rich goodness that you want and nothing you don't.

There's a magic point at which all the bacteria have enough moisture, but enough 02 (from the soil being almost dried out and them being exposed to air) when they proliferate at an exponential rate. I think trying to keep the soil moist would actually slow the process down vs. simply doing the cycles. Plus, sifting the soil breaks down the particles and gives the bacteria a better surface area to colonize on the next cycle (which is probably even MORE important)


----------



## farmhand

jargonchipmunk said:


> you need the wet/dry cycles. It's bacteria that colonize the soil that "mineralize" it. In very layman's terms, you want to end up with bacteria poop as a substrate. This is why the soil changes so much in consistency (because it's run through the digestive "tract" of trillions of bacteria)
> 
> Plus, sifting the soil breaks down the particles and gives the bacteria a better surface area to colonize on the next cycle (which is probably even MORE important)


So the process of mineralization is biological. I have very hot dry weather here. I am concerned that too short of a drying time would limit this process.??? Also, would raking or stirring the soil while drying help increase the 02 and thereby help the bacteria do their thing?


----------



## default user

Can I use the red clay in my yard instead of the pottery clay and still achieve the same results?

Also will any 0-0-60 fertilizer work in place of the potash?


----------



## roadmaster

SCMurphy said:


> Use the granular substrate from your reef tank, that is the right kind of dolomite. Rinse it well, get rid of excess salts. There is a product called dolomite that is sold for gardening that is very fine, highly processed, and dissolves instantly in water, don't use this dolomite.


 Have performed extensive search in my area for dolomite but all I am finding locally is crushed coral and aragonite.
Of the two, which might produce the best results?
I too shall prolly have to use epsom salt for Mg, and am wondering bout a generic amount per Square foot or per 1/2 cup to cup of either the crushed coral or aragonite.
Many thanks in advance for opinions.


----------



## tharsis

So how does time affect this process?

If I were impatient because it hasn't stopped raining fro two weeks, could I conceivably bring my soil to the garage, surround it with heaters and a fan and go to town?


----------



## oldpunk78

^ yep. you can also bake it or boil it.


----------



## tharsis

won't baking it kill the microbial work though? I think a lot of microbes die above 50 degrees celcius...


----------



## lauraleellbp

tharsis said:


> won't baking it kill the microbial work though? I think a lot of microbes die above 50 degrees celcius...


Yes. Baking and boiling are using a different process.


----------



## tharsis

is that covered somehwere? Because if I can bake it in a day I will be very happy 

Would I still only have to go through 3-4 cycles of wetting/drying?


----------



## farmhand

tharsis said:


> Would I still only have to go through 3-4 cycles of wetting/drying?





jargonchipmunk said:


> you need the wet/dry cycles. It's bacteria that colonize the soil that "mineralize" it. In very layman's terms, you want to end up with bacteria poop as a substrate. This is why the soil changes so much in consistency (because it's run through the digestive "tract" of trillions of bacteria) It gets rid of urea, ammonia, non-bio available forms of nutrients, etc and leaves you with all the rich goodness that you want and nothing you don't.
> 
> There's a magic point at which all the bacteria have enough moisture, but enough 02 (from the soil being almost dried out and them being exposed to air) when they proliferate at an exponential rate. I think trying to keep the soil moist would actually slow the process down vs. simply doing the cycles. Plus, sifting the soil breaks down the particles and gives the bacteria a better surface area to colonize on the next cycle (which is probably even MORE important)


Just quoting jargonchipmunk above. I would like to understand more as to why this is the case???


----------



## SCMurphy

SCMurphy said:


> Yeah you can add a little Epsom salt to make up for the Mg missing in the crushed coral. Don't worry about the grain size as long as it is normal size for an aquarium gravel or smaller.





roadmaster said:


> Have performed extensive search in my area for dolomite but all I am finding locally is crushed coral and aragonite.
> Of the two, which might produce the best results?
> I too shall prolly have to use epsom salt for Mg, and am wondering bout a generic amount per Square foot or per 1/2 cup to cup of either the crushed coral or aragonite.
> Many thanks in advance for opinions.


I do not know what the mineral content of aragonite is compared to coral or dolomite, however, if you do, you can figure out whether you can use it with or without Mg additions. My gut tells me that even if it has Mg, you can treat it like you are using the crushed coral and not hurt anything.


----------



## SCMurphy

default user said:


> Can I use the red clay in my yard instead of the pottery clay and still achieve the same results?





SCMurphy said:


> Most of the people doing the MTS will not know how some other clay will work. We haven't seen it or tried it. Feel free to push it through the process and give it a shot. Report back on if it works. Pretty much as long as it is not a polymer clay you should be fine





default user said:


> Also will any 0-0-60 fertilizer work in place of the potash?


A 0-0-60 fertilizer probably is potash. Just make sure that it doesn't have any extra chemicals in it that could harm your livestock.


----------



## SCMurphy

farmhand said:


> First of all, thanks for taking time to answer everyone's questions.:angel:
> I have read through the entire thread, plus have done more reading on the subject on the web. There's a lot of info on "how to" but not so much as to "why" this process works. Spent the last month soaking and drying top soil from Walmart and found it to be mainly wood chips. I have plenty of good soil where I live and thought to give it a try.
> 
> What does the soaking do? If you were to spread out the soil on a tarp and keep it moist so that it is always drying out, would this work? Why would it or not?





farmhand said:


> So the process of mineralization is biological. I have very hot dry weather here. I am concerned that too short of a drying time would limit this process.??? Also, would raking or stirring the soil while drying help increase the 02 and thereby help the bacteria do their thing?





tharsis said:


> So how does time affect this process?
> 
> If I were impatient because it hasn't stopped raining fro two weeks, could I conceivably bring my soil to the garage, surround it with heaters and a fan and go to town?


The soil does not have to be warm, it just speeds things up like a hot compost pile. The process is meant to be easy and require as little work as possible, if you want to play with your mud to speed up the process feel free. Spreading the soil into a thin layer and letting the water drain from it actually pulls air into the soil spaces increasing the available O2. 

The wet/dry cycle does NOT have a set number of replications. Use your nose to decide if the soil is ready. If it smells clean when it is done with a soak, it is ready, if it smells like rotting vegetation, it is not ready. Letting it soak for a couple days gives enough time for the conditions that need to happen for the anaerobic bacteria, that create the unpleasant odors, to do enough work to make the odors. 

The soaking in a container allows you to follow an old (wrong*) adage, "The solution to pollution is dilution." In this situation it help to ensure that any chemicals that were used on the land the soil came from are washed away as much as possible. It also lets you skim off any oils (natural or otherwise), wood chips, perlite, vermiculite, sawdust, etc. You can skip any step in the process that you wish. You might find a way to make it even easier to use, just post your version of the process and the results. 

* The actual solution to pollution is not to.


----------



## tharsis

Aragonite and crushed coral are the same thing, they are both CaCO3 just like calcite but aragonite has a slightly different structure. It has a very similar solubility to calcite but I think calcite is slightly lower. Neither aragonite or crushed coral have any Mg, so you would have to use another Mg additive like epsom salts.


----------



## roadmaster

tharsis said:


> Aragonite and crushed coral are the same thing, they are both CaCO3 just like calcite but aragonite has a slightly different structure. It has a very similar solubility to calcite but I think calcite is slightly lower. Neither aragonite or crushed coral have any Mg, so you would have to use another Mg additive like epsom salts.


 
Thanks.


----------



## Fishly

JDowns said:


> http://www.marjonceramics.com/pages/products.html
> 
> You should be able to find everything you need there.
> 
> Clays can be bought powdered which will save you some time and energy (Raw Clays).


Which one of their clays should you get? There are quite a few to choose from.


----------



## bjc777***

hello sirs i was wondering if i could substitute crushed shells like oysters to crushed corals? 

thanks


----------



## default user

SCMurphy said:


> A 0-0-60 fertilizer probably is potash. Just make sure that it doesn't have any extra chemicals in it that could harm your livestock.


I guess I will give it a try then.

Should the water be clear (or clearish) by the final soak/wash? Or should it still be murky?


----------



## topjimmy

What would all of you use to top off the MTS? I was going to use sand, or decomposed granite. I like the look of gravel.


----------



## topfrog007

Is anyone selling MTS kits?


----------



## Fishly

bjc777*** said:


> hello sirs i was wondering if i could substitute crushed shells like oysters to crushed corals?


I believe you can. I think people use crushed oyster shell in El Natural substrates (El Natural uses plain, unmineralized topsoil instead of MTS).



topjimmy said:


> What would all of you use to top off the MTS? I was going to use sand, or decomposed granite. I like the look of gravel.


You can use whatever you like, so long as it's aquarium safe. I think if you used gravel you would need a thicker layer than you would if you used sand. So, while you could use just 1" or so of sand, you would need 1.5-2" of gravel.



topfrog007 said:


> Is anyone selling MTS kits?


I think someone has before, but I'm not sure who it was. Try putting a WTB in the Swap & Shop.


----------



## carlos05

I need some advice with my MTS. I've been dealing with lots of algae lately and now I'm dealing with BBA and some other algae that I'm not sure what it is (it's brown, stringy, and on the lower parts of the stems and the hair grass). I'm at the end of my patience because no matter what I do, I can't get the plants to grow without any problems. I have CO2 running at the same time every day and lights on from 2-9 with burst from 5-7 every day. I dose dry ferts every other day (I tried every day and had algae so I thought cutting back would help) and I haven't added new fish and I don't feed these fish every day. 

My question is: could the MTS have run out of nutrients? Could I try adding something like Eco-Complete on top of the MTS? 

I really want to avoid breaking down the tank but I'm tired of the algae and problems that I've been dealing with every since I put MTS back in Spring of 08. 

Sorry for the rant but I would appreciate any help. Thanks


----------



## PC1

I'll be working on some of this for my 150 Im setting up. How many bags you think It would be? 2-3?


----------



## default user

PC1 said:


> I'll be working on some of this for my 150 Im setting up. How many bags you think It would be? 2-3?


I would think 2 would be fine. You only need about a inch to two of it plus however much clay you add.


----------



## pianofish

@carlos05
What kind of cap do you have on top of the MTS? And how long have you had the tank running for? I highly doubt its out of nutrients, its probably diatoms (stringy brown algae) if so, an easy fix is getting a few ottos. And do you really need to dose ferts with MTS? 

Your pal,
Pianofish


----------



## Gatekeeper

carlos05 said:


> I need some advice with my MTS. I've been dealing with lots of algae lately and now I'm dealing with BBA and some other algae that I'm not sure what it is (it's brown, stringy, and on the lower parts of the stems and the hair grass). I'm at the end of my patience because no matter what I do, I can't get the plants to grow without any problems. I have CO2 running at the same time every day and lights on from 2-9 with burst from 5-7 every day. I dose dry ferts every other day (I tried every day and had algae so I thought cutting back would help) and I haven't added new fish and I don't feed these fish every day.
> 
> My question is: could the MTS have run out of nutrients? Could I try adding something like Eco-Complete on top of the MTS?
> 
> I really want to avoid breaking down the tank but I'm tired of the algae and problems that I've been dealing with every since I put MTS back in Spring of 08.
> 
> Sorry for the rant but I would appreciate any help. Thanks


This is not an MTS issue, this is a balance issue. I suggest starting a new thread on this topic. Be specific when you start the thread and list all tank specs and what you have tried to do to remedy the issues.


----------



## Gatekeeper

PC1 said:


> I'll be working on some of this for my 150 Im setting up. How many bags you think It would be? 2-3?


I am always an advocate for "more is better". Mineralizing three bags costs you nothing but a few bucks. worst comes to worse, you store the extra that you didn't use.

But if space is an issue, two bags would seem to be enough, but you do lose quite a bit of volume when you are going through the process, especially after you screen it.


----------



## keithy

Hi all,I am new to the hobby and would like to start my MTS tank. Anyone know how much dolomite, potash and clay is needed to setup a 29 gallon tank? 

If its not very much (since the OP mentioned only a sprinkle at the tank bottom) does anyone have any extra to spare? I will be willing to pay shipping and material cost, just don't want to have bags of leftovers sitting in my appartment.


----------



## topfrog007

Just thought I would share with everyone where I found clay.

http://axner.com/em706.aspx

I called them and spoke to a clay expert, and this clay is their highest iron content and completely natural (no synthetic polymers).

On the website you have to order 50lbs minimium (.43 cents a lb) but if you call the 800 number they can take your order over the phone and then the minimum order is 25lbs.


----------



## SCMurphy

topfrog007 said:


> Just thought I would share with everyone where I found clay.
> 
> http://axner.com/em706.aspx
> 
> I called them and spoke to a clay expert, and this clay is their highest iron content and completely natural (no synthetic polymers).
> 
> On the website you have to order 50lbs minimium (.43 cents a lb) but if you call the 800 number they can take your order over the phone and then the minimum order is 25lbs.


Nice find, that looks like a good clay.


----------



## sewingalot

After having such great success with my 10 gallon mineralized soil tank, I've decided to try the process on my own again. I think I failed in the screening process. Does anyone know if the mm size to get or does is it just whatever size that will get the chunks of wood and debris out?


----------



## Darth Toro

sewingalot said:


> After having such great success with my 10 gallon mineralized soil tank, I've decided to try the process on my own again. I think I failed in the screening process. Does anyone know if the mm size to get or does is it just whatever size that will get the chunks of wood and debris out?


I just used screen that was intended for my windows or a screen door. Im not sure what the mm is but it seemed to work well sifting the organic potting soil I bought. It is amazing how much waste I got from the big bag I bought. There are more stems and bark then soil.


----------



## default user

Would anyone be willing to send me some dolomite and/or some potash? Around a pound each would suffice. I have a 55 gallon that just needs those two things so I can finish it up.

I will compensate your time and troubles with a monetary value of course.


----------



## jasbolto

Does anyone have clay, potash, and dolomite that they want to sell? I need enough for a 40g breeder.
Thanks
Jason


----------



## oldpunk78

i have a silly question to ask.

soil quality before the mineralization process, how does it affect the end result?

reason i ask is because i was recently camping at the coast and couldn't help but notice how rich the soil in the woods was. soft, black, no rocks, full of nutrients. (i brought some home with me, lol) 

something just says that this stuff would yield a better product than a bag of home depot topsoil (rocks, sand, wood chips, plastic, ect.) opinions??


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I wish I could find pics of the guys in the UK who took soil from the black forest. There tanks looked amazing! How much did you get?


----------



## oldpunk78

Green Leaf Aquariums said:


> I wish I could find pics of the guys in the UK who took soil from the black forest. There tanks looked amazing! How much did you get?


woot! that was what i wanted to hear. i only brought enough back to do one of my tanks. it's only 3 hour drive though. if it works out, i'll probably get more. the soil came from the Trinidad area (near part of the coast here where the redwoods grow). foggy, rains a lot...


----------



## monkeyfish

I really want to use MTS in my 90 gallon low tech setup. However, I will be stocking kuhli loaches and am worried they will stir it up constantly. If i have a sand only section of the tank and keep the MTS under 3-4 inches of pool filter sand toward the rear and sides of the tank, will that work? I'm having a really hard time deciding on a relatively cheap, good substrate for my plants and kuhlis.

EDIT: I will be providing plenty of hiding places as well, maybe help curb the burrowing a little?


----------



## jargonchipmunk

the MTS will always settle to the bottom. Khuli's would have to really be goin wild (and deep) to mess with it much. There are much larger eel-type fish and a few rays that I certainly wouldn't recommend, but I'd steer clear in any planted tank with those anyway, so the point's moot.


----------



## monkeyfish

Great, one decision finally out of my way! BTW, That was a nice tank you had there, I'm subscribing to see how the new dual 120 tank setups go. Have fun!


----------



## Franco

I'm doing a MTS-NPT with Iowa prairie soil. I figure we literally have the best soil in the world so why not try a NPT with it. So far my outdoor nano tank experiments with it work beautifully.

This soil has no rocks or roots and it is literally the blackest soil you've ever seen. I took it from as deep as possible to ensure that it was older and would have fewer contaminants from modern times. I mineralized a very low labor/time way. I wetted it and then set it outside in large planter saucers to dry in the sun. Every day I would mist it with water or just pour some into the saucer and mix it up. Spent maybe 2 minutes a day for a week and it seems to be just as mineralized as if you follow the directions at the beginning of the MTS. I also mineralized some clay and iron rich soil from a subsoil layer I found at the same site. I figure I might try to mix it in and see if it shows different results. 

I've also tried soaking and baking at 500* repeat repeat repeat and within 3 hours it seemed to be pretty mineralized. That however kills any bacteria in the soil and my results with it show that it takes a little longer to get colonized and become a living substrate. My established test tanks give off a lot of gas from the bottom. A lot of people freak out when gas comes out of their substrate but its not usually harmful. Most of it is CO2 from decomp of the soil by bacteria. Good for the plants. The bad gases tend to not be in high enough concentrations to hurt anything in my test tanks. I've got snails, daphnia, water mite thingys, tiny dragonfly larvae, and all of them seem fine. 

I have yet to try bagged store-bought topsoil.

Has anyone else done a variation of the MTS process with good results?


----------



## default user

Can someone give me a definite or as close to as possible of what type of clay is needed? It seems like everyone has something different and no one can say if its the right kind or not. Does any clay work? Theres about 1000 different types; modeling, polymer, air drying, oven bake, all natural, and every possible combination of those. Does color matter? I have found 2 that I think seem to be the best one says its pottery clay and is terra cotta colored and the other one says it all natural modeling clay and is gray. Would either of those work?


----------



## Franco

Clay isn't a material, it describes the size and shape of a soil particle and its composition is determined by the kind of parent material (rock) that it broke down from a bajillion years ago. 
Don't use the polymer clay. Its manufactured. You want something that is natural, i.e. red brick clay, terracotta, etc. Those will have more iron in them. Bonzai tree soil is really cheap and its essentially laterite. 
I just find clay outside and use that. Its gray and yellow. Just yesterday I was walking a stream and saw some patches of clay in the creek bottom so I scooped it up. 
Subsoil is composed mostly of clay as well (ours is yellow in color) and if you wet it, it turns into the squishy clay we recognize from 2nd grade. When I have used subsoil, I mineralize it by itself and then pulverize it with a rolling pin between newspapers, mix it with the mineralized topsoil, and you are good to go.


----------



## monkeyfish

I finally managed to read all 48 pages of this thread. I am still not sure about the different soils i have. One is from a supply yard but doesn't seem to be the right texture after being mineralized by mother nature, and remains a light brown color. Two is some nice looking stuff I dug from my "yard" And number three is bagged Earthgro topsoil from HD. I've done the test where you mix the soil with water and a touch of soap in a jar, shake, and watch how it settles out, and they all seem to fail for having too much clay. The soil I dug up settled out the fastest with the least amount of clay. I'm just wondering where to go from here? My plan was to mineralize all of them and see what I get, any advice? Maybe I'm over thinking this and should just put in the stuff thats ready to go, never thought I'd become obsessed with dirt.


----------



## talontsiawd

I have read through the whole thread and have read up on this before. I have been a bit "iffy" about this because I have seen many people have great success but have also seen people really failing and not enjoying this.

I am planning to tear down one of my tanks in the near future and I want to replace the substrate as I don't like the color, and I have had issues with plants breaking off right above the root base in certain spots of my tank. I can't confirm my substrate is the culprit but I want to change anyway.

My real question...Can I use say 1/4 of what would be "normal" and just expect to have to does a bit? I don't mind dosing at all, and that is not my reasoning to go MTS, i just think it is interesting. Or, would I be better off just going with regular substrate and dose like I am used to? I have not decided against MTS and I actually bought some top soil today that I am currently minerializing. I figure it is better to start now and throw it out if I change my mind as the biggest part is time. Anyone done it "half way" and either combined with ferts, or just didn't use them? This would be a high light, co2 tank.


----------



## NicotineRush

Was wondering, do I let the mts 'set up' before adding my top cap? (pool filter sand)


----------



## talontsiawd

I have a question. I didn't really read through the thread until after I bought my top soil. After my first rinse and dry, I decided to sift it. I found a bunch of rocks, sand, and what looked like chunks of peat moss. I looked at the bag and it definitely has peat moss. 

I am sure I got most of it out but there is bound to be some peat moss still in. Will this be a problem? I know it is common to put in tanks to lower PH so I figure it will not. I don't know if the minerializing will lessen any effects. They were in chunks, I am just figuring some broke off or got crushed in the process of packing the stuff, transporting it, me rinsing it, etc. Problem? Am I over thinking?


----------



## Nue

Peat moss is fine. It may make the substrate more acidic. I don't see that a problem, some plants like it. But I believe the dolomite will reduce the acid anyways.


----------



## talontsiawd

Nue said:


> Peat moss is fine. It may make the substrate more acidic. I don't see that a problem, some plants like it. But I believe the dolomite will reduce the acid anyways.


That's what I figured, I was just concerned about the substrate being able to become acidic but I figured the dolomite would solve it, if there is even enough to matter. I will update when I am done if there is issues, which will be awhile.


----------



## talontsiawd

Ok, I know, alot of questions from me. I had an idea and was wondering if this could possibly help the process. I may buy some new topsoil because of too much sand, probably not but I came up with an idea, I am not sure if it would work but makes sense in my head.

Would it be effective to put your soil into a bucket after you rinse and strain, then cover it? That way it would consistently be wet but drying out. It seems a bit easier than rinsing, drying, rinsing, drying. If you could just put it out for a long period of time and have it constanstaly be mineralizing, then you would have no work. I know it isn't that hard to do it the regular way but it would just be a one day thing and wait. Well, you would probably want to rinse again at the end. I am just wondering if this would work.


----------



## SCMurphy

It is actually mineralizing during the drying phase when the soil can support aerobic bacteria. What you are proposing is maintaining conditions for anarobic bacteria which will take longer to mineralize the soil. Your way will work, it just takes longer.


----------



## SCMurphy

NicotineRush said:


> Was wondering, do I let the mts 'set up' before adding my top cap? (pool filter sand)


I have no idea what you mean by "set up".


----------



## SCMurphy

monkeyfish said:


> I finally managed to read all 48 pages of this thread. I am still not sure about the different soils i have. One is from a supply yard but doesn't seem to be the right texture after being mineralized by mother nature, and remains a light brown color. Two is some nice looking stuff I dug from my "yard" And number three is bagged Earthgro topsoil from HD. I've done the test where you mix the soil with water and a touch of soap in a jar, shake, and watch how it settles out, and they all seem to fail for having too much clay. The soil I dug up settled out the fastest with the least amount of clay. I'm just wondering where to go from here? My plan was to mineralize all of them and see what I get, any advice? Maybe I'm over thinking this and should just put in the stuff thats ready to go, never thought I'd become obsessed with dirt.


You are over thinking it. It sounds like you could use the stuff that is ready. If that one worries you then don't use it and mineralize either one of the other soils. Mineralize all three if you want and mix them together. You should be fine.


----------



## NicotineRush

SCMurphy said:


> I have no idea what you mean by "set up".


Dry out. Seems like if you add the cap right away, it will just mix/sink into the mts. Is this even a concern?
Thanks


----------



## davesnothere

I am thinking of going the mineralized way. Two things I am not clear about :

1. No fertilization ?

2. No Co2 anymore ?

Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Hoppy

davesnothere said:


> I am thinking of going the mineralized way. Two things I am not clear about :
> 
> 1. No fertilization ?
> 
> 2. No Co2 anymore ?
> 
> Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.


The need for CO2 is dependent on how much light you use. If you stick with low light, no CO2 is needed with any substrate. Fertilizing is a pretty good idea with other than low light, because it gives the plants two sources of nutrients, and lets the nutrients in the MTS last longer. With low light, the slow growth of the plants can be supported just by the MTS nutrients. I suspect dosing something like LeafZone, which is mostly a potassium supplement would be helpful, since potassium isn't very available in the substrate, I think.


----------



## Guns286

NicotineRush said:


> Was wondering, do I let the mts 'set up' before adding my top cap? (pool filter sand)


I think what he was asking, and I have the same question, is after you soak, dry, and repeat a bunch of times do you add the MTS to your tank wet or dry? I can see the logic in both. I just want to know which is the RIGHT way.


----------



## Nue

It will have to be wet once you add the clay. Unless I guess it's powered clay. But i've only seen it added to tank muddy.

I have a question, Can I store my left overs? Let it dry and re-hydrate it later?


----------



## It_is_Fishy2Me

*Dolomite and Potassium - May I use these?*
DOLOMITE:
My local clay shop carries Dolomite, is this the correct type to use? 
The description is, 'Dolomite is ground magnesium limestone rock, it combines calcium and magnesium carbonates. In ceramic glazes it is used as a source of magnesia and calcia. Other than talc, dolomite is the principle source of MgO in high temperature glazes. Common in Matte glazes.'
Here is the MSDS from their site:

http://
shop.clay-planet.com/MSDS/chemicals/Dolomite%20-%20Dolowhite.pdf

Would a pound of it be enough for a 55 Gallon tank (48"x13")?

POTASSIUM:
Since I have to take Potassium (Klor-Con)
for medical reasons, do you think I can use it?

Klor-Con is a solid oral dosage form of potassium chloride. Each contains 1500 mg of potassium chloride equivalent to 20 mEq of potassium in a wax matrix tablet. This formulation is intended to provide an extended-release of potassium from the matrix to minimize the likelihood of producing high, localized concentrations of potassium within the gastrointestinal tract.
Klor-Con® Extended-release Tablets are an electrolyte replenisher. The chemical name is potassium chloride, and the structural formula is KCl. Potassium chloride, USP is a white, granular powder or colorless crystals. It is odorless and has a saline taste. Its solutions are neutral to litmus. It is freely soluble in water and insoluble in alcohol.
Inactive Ingredients: Hydrogenated vegetable oil, magnesium stearate, polyethylene glycol, polyvinyl alcohol, silicon dioxide, talc and titanium dioxide.


----------



## Hoppy

The dolomite should only be a very thin layer at the bottom of the substrate, thin enough so you can still see the glass under it. A pound would do that for a very big tank.

I wouldn't use those potassium pills because of the added ingredients and the slow release formulation. Look at your grocery store for salt substitute, look at the ingredients for nearly 100% potassium chloride. I found one brand that fit that description, but I don't recall what it was. Again, this goes on the bottom of the substrate, a very thin layer.


----------



## Hoppy

2010GA6 said:


> Banana's are a good source for potassium. And cheap too.


What dosage of bananas do you use?:biggrin:


----------



## ballen

Hi im setting up my first planted tank in some years and have decided to use mts as the sub. I'm just finishing my 2 drying and sifting. my question is what i am let with is almost dust with a little bit of small rock is that what i am going for, it has no smell when it is wet or anything just checking. i realy dont want to go and plant a tank just to have it crap out on me :hihi:


----------



## It_is_Fishy2Me

Hoppy,

Thanks for the advise. I will use the salt substitute then.


----------



## aman74

This article: http://amania.110mb.com/Chapters/Tec...asoils_en.html

States not to use KCI (muritate of potash) in the soil as it kills bacteria.

Not saying that's the case as there are many articles and much info on the web that often conflicts, but the article is quite in depth and I thought it worthy of discussion.

What forms of potassium are available to plants via soil? K+ is not, correct?


----------



## Hoppy

The original mineralized topsoil article recommended potash, which is muriate of potash, which is just KCl, which is why I used "no salt" salt substitute. I have no idea if it kills bacteria or not. If it kills useful bacteria, of course it would be a bad idea. But, does it?

Several months ago I recall a post, probably here on TPT, that said that potassium is not available to plant roots and has to be dosed to the water. Possibly I misunderstood what I read, but if anyone remembers that post it would be interesting to read it again. Terrestrial fertilizer contains potassium so that certainly suggests that roots do pick it up.


----------



## aman74

Hoppy said:


> The original mineralized topsoil article recommended potash, which is muriate of potash, which is just KCl, which is why I used "no salt" salt substitute. I have no idea if it kills bacteria or not. If it kills useful bacteria, of course it would be a bad idea. But, does it?
> 
> Several months ago I recall a post, probably here on TPT, that said that potassium is not available to plant roots and has to be dosed to the water. Possibly I misunderstood what I read, but if anyone remembers that post it would be interesting to read it again. Terrestrial fertilizer contains potassium so that certainly suggests that roots do pick it up.


I don't know, but I believe Tom Barr had said that K+ is not available to the roots. However, is K+ different than KCI? I'm very new to the chemisty aspect, but when speaking about potassium there are different forms right?

Just trying to figure out if it's not available to the roots there's no sense in doing that step. Also, if it kills bacteria then it's not only a waste of money, but also detrimental.

MTS sounds like a great thing, but I'd like to do it right and just because people recommend this or that doesn't mean it's correct. Just like the drying process being the only way to do it properly. It's my understanding that baking is fine as well, but people will tell you not to.


----------



## Hoppy

aman74 said:


> I don't know, but I believe Tom Barr had said that K+ is not available to the roots. However, is K+ different than KCI? I'm very new to the chemisty aspect, but when speaking about potassium there are different forms right?
> 
> Just trying to figure out if it's not available to the roots there's no sense in doing that step. Also, if it kills bacteria then it's not only a waste of money, but also detrimental.
> 
> MTS sounds like a great thing, but I'd like to do it right and just because people recommend this or that doesn't mean it's correct. Just like the drying process being the only way to do it properly. It's my understanding that baking is fine as well, but people will tell you not to.


When you dissolve KCl in water you get K+ and Cl- ions. I think you are right that it was Tom who posted that about potassium. I wonder why most terrestrial fertilizers contain potash?


----------



## SCMurphy

NicotineRush said:


> Dry out. Seems like if you add the cap right away, it will just mix/sink into the mts. Is this even a concern?
> Thanks


Not a concern, the cap seals away the soil nicely without getting mixed in. You can mix some in if you want to "bulk up" the mts layer, useful for setting up deeper substrates.



Guns286 said:


> I think what he was asking, and I have the same question, is after you soak, dry, and repeat a bunch of times do you add the MTS to your tank wet or dry? I can see the logic in both. I just want to know which is the RIGHT way.


Wet, it keeps the soil from floating up out of the sub-basement when you fill the tank.



Nue said:


> It will have to be wet once you add the clay. Unless I guess it's powered clay. But i've only seen it added to tank muddy.
> 
> I have a question, Can I store my left overs? Let it dry and re-hydrate it later?


Yes, you can store the leftovers dry.


----------



## SCMurphy

I have not had a problem with Potash. The CL- ions probably do kill some bacteria before they all gas off. The amount we are using though is very small to the volume of the substrate which limits the duration of any possible detrimental effects. I mostly want to avoid the potassium sulfate fertilizer. Why make it easy to form hydrogen sulfide in the substrate if we don't have to.

Tom usually refers to an article by Barko that shows that Hydrilla does a poor job of pulling K from sediments. I don't think we can apply that finding to rosette type plants. Hydrilla doesn't exactly have the most impressive root system. You might think about that when you do a stem plant tank with mts though. It would be advisable to dose K more often than I do with rosette plant themed tanks.


----------



## Hoppy

SCMurphy said:


> I have not had a problem with Potash. The CL- ions probably do kill some bacteria before they all gas off. The amount we are using though is very small to the volume of the substrate which limits the duration of any possible detrimental effects. I mostly want to avoid the potassium sulfate fertilizer. Why make it easy to form hydrogen sulfide in the substrate if we don't have to.
> 
> Tom usually refers to an article by Barko that shows that Hydrilla does a poor job of pulling K from sediments. I don't think we can apply that finding to rosette type plants. Hydrilla doesn't exactly have the most impressive root system. You might think about that when you do a stem plant tank with mts though. It would be advisable to dose K more often than I do with rosette plant themed tanks.


Good explanations, thank you!!


----------



## crf529

Just curious as to growing for example, moss and pellia in a tank using MTS, and how it performs? I'm interested because I have seen the warnings about fertilizing the water column causing algae outbreaks if not done accurately, as i'm looking to set up a shrimp only tank where for me large amounts of moss and pellia will be a must I just wanna make sure that I shouldn't be looking at AS instead where dosing wont be an issue?


----------



## Hoppy

crf529 said:


> Just curious as to growing for example, moss and pellia in a tank using MTS, and how it performs? I'm interested because I have seen the warnings about fertilizing the water column causing algae outbreaks if not done accurately, as i'm looking to set up a shrimp only tank where for me large amounts of moss and pellia will be a must I just wanna make sure that I shouldn't be looking at AS instead where dosing wont be an issue?


The only way fertilizing causes algae problems is if you don't dose enough, or don't dose all of the needed nutrients, so the plants aren't healthy. Unhealthy plants attract algae.


----------



## SCMurphy

crf529 said:


> Just curious as to growing for example, moss and pellia in a tank using MTS, and how it performs? I'm interested because I have seen the warnings about fertilizing the water column causing algae outbreaks if not done accurately, as i'm looking to set up a shrimp only tank where for me large amounts of moss and pellia will be a must I just wanna make sure that I shouldn't be looking at AS instead where dosing wont be an issue?


I can only answer the moss part. I consider mosses (and riccia) to be akin to algae in my tanks, I don't try to grow them but they crop up anyways and do quite well.


----------



## Gweeble69

Hey guys I have a few questions i was hoping you could help me with. First of all I have a 29G tank that i just switched to MTS after using the EI method for a while. I have 6 tetras, 5 cories, 2 otos, and 1 SAE. After the rescape the only plants i have now are 2 types of anubis, 2 pots of DHG, a couple stems, and java fern. I run preasurized Co2 through a aquamedic 1000. My filtration is an AC 50 hob and rena xp2 and for extra current i have a korila 1. My lighting is a coralife PC fixture with 2 65w bulbs one a 6500/10k bulb and the other is a 10k.
Now for my questions. I have just been using the 6500/10k bulb and leaving the 10k bulb off. with the plants i have listed would it be better to run both bulbs or just keep doing what im doing? I do plan to get a few stems to line the back wall. 2nd question is Ive read of people suplemnting ferts with MTS. How would i go about doing this? i wouldnt minde if it was just a lil once a week and and water changes twice monthly or once monthly. If anyone knows about how much i could dose of each please let me know I dont want an agea farm and i dont minde fast growth. The only reason i got away from EI is couse i would always forget to dose many times through the week. Thanks for any and all advice

Regards Clint


----------



## ridewake210

What can i substitute for dolomite?


----------



## Hoppy

The primary characteristics of dolomite are:
It dissolves very slowly, compared to calcium carbonate rocks.
It contains both calcium and magnesium, both of which are needed by plants.
When it dissolves, the KH rises, so the pH usually also rises.

The first two are pretty unique.


----------



## Leichty

*confused*

I'm confused on how you use clay in your substrate .. I'm new to this.. I have a question I have a creek behind our house and the bottom of the creek is lined with clay and boy it can be slippery when wadding. And of course there is sand in the creek to.. And we also have clay in our soil . Is this something I can use?


----------



## ridewake210

Hoppy said:


> The primary characteristics of dolomite are:
> It dissolves very slowly, compared to calcium carbonate rocks.
> It contains both calcium and magnesium, both of which are needed by plants.
> When it dissolves, the KH rises, so the pH usually also rises.
> 
> The first two are pretty unique.


So what do i do then? 
I cannot find this stuff anywhere locally.


----------



## Guns286

ridewake210 said:


> So what do i do then?
> I cannot find this stuff anywhere locally.


I ran into a problem finding it around here too. Did you try a plant nursery? If you do end up finding it locally its probably going to be a 25lb bag, which is MUCH more then you need. Try posting on the local thread, see if anyone close to you has a cup or two to spare. In the end, I ordered one of the "MTS Kits" from CryptKeeper, one of our members. He sent me the clay, dolomite, and potach.


----------



## Guns286

Now I have a question. I plan on creating a hill, with my PFS. My MTS will be 3/4" deep and I will add about 2 1/4" of PFS to cap it. At its highest point the "hill" will rise about 4"-5" above that, and slope down, towards the center of the tank, about 16". I'm going to cover the hill with rocks and HC, but at the top, I would like to leave a flat area that I can plant some sort of bushy plant. 
My question; Would it be worth it to hollow out a 2" (or so) deep hole, at the top of the hill, pour in some MTS, and cap it the rest of the way with PFS? That way the plant at the top of the hill, and possible the HC, will get the benifits of the MTS too.


----------



## Hoppy

Guns286 said:


> Now I have a question. I plan on creating a hill, with my PFS. My MTS will be 3/4" deep and I will add about 2 1/4" of PFS to cap it. At its highest point the "hill" will rise about 4"-5" above that, and slope down, towards the center of the tank, about 16". I'm going to cover the hill with rocks and HC, but at the top, I would like to leave a flat area that I can plant some sort of bushy plant.
> My question; Would it be worth it to hollow out a 2" (or so) deep hole, at the top of the hill, pour in some MTS, and cap it the rest of the way with PFS? That way the plant at the top of the hill, and possible the HC, will get the benifits of the MTS too.


My experience with sand hills is that they last a few weeks at most before the sand runs downhill, leveling out the hill. A couple of weeks ago I saw a tank set up by one of our aquatic plant group members that had an enormous hill in it, but the hill was mostly made of very large rocks, with sand filling in the gaps. It seemed to be working out very well. The few times I have tried something like that, it worked a lot better than just using sand, but I decided I don't like hills, so I don't have recent experience with them.

It looks like you would have a better chance to succeed if you made the hill mostly from MTS, instead of sand. MTS is like clay, in that it can hold it's shape and not flow the way sand does. The risk would be that the sand would all flow off the hill, leaving just the MTS behind.


----------



## Guns286

Hoppy said:


> My experience with sand hills is that they last a few weeks at most before the sand runs downhill, leveling out the hill. A couple of weeks ago I saw a tank set up by one of our aquatic plant group members that had an enormous hill in it, but the hill was mostly made of very large rocks, with sand filling in the gaps. It seemed to be working out very well. The few times I have tried something like that, it worked a lot better than just using sand, but I decided I don't like hills, so I don't have recent experience with them.
> 
> It looks like you would have a better chance to succeed if you made the hill mostly from MTS, instead of sand. MTS is like clay, in that it can hold it's shape and not flow the way sand does. The risk would be that the sand would all flow off the hill, leaving just the MTS behind.


Yea, I thought about the whole landslide thing. What I'm planning will actually be closer to your group members hill. Rocks will circle the base and large rocks will be throughout the hill itself. As I said, I want the gaps to be big enough to plant HC in.


----------



## SCMurphy

Guns286 said:


> Now I have a question. I plan on creating a hill, with my PFS. My MTS will be 3/4" deep and I will add about 2 1/4" of PFS to cap it. At its highest point the "hill" will rise about 4"-5" above that, and slope down, towards the center of the tank, about 16". I'm going to cover the hill with rocks and HC, but at the top, I would like to leave a flat area that I can plant some sort of bushy plant.
> My question; Would it be worth it to hollow out a 2" (or so) deep hole, at the top of the hill, pour in some MTS, and cap it the rest of the way with PFS? That way the plant at the top of the hill, and possible the HC, will get the benifits of the MTS too.


Put the MTS in a bowl or pot at the top of your hill and cover it with your cap material.


----------



## SCMurphy

Leichty said:


> I'm confused on how you use clay in your substrate .. I'm new to this.. I have a question I have a creek behind our house and the bottom of the creek is lined with clay and boy it can be slippery when wadding. And of course there is sand in the creek to.. And we also have clay in our soil . Is this something I can use?


Most of the people doing the MTS will not know how some other clay will work. We haven't seen it or tried it. Feel free to push it through the process and give it a shot. Report back on if it works.


----------



## Guns286

SCMurphy said:


> Put the MTS in a bowl or pot at the top of your hill and cover it with your cap material.


That was my next thought. I'll give that a try. Thanks.


----------



## crf529

Quick question with cycling once the MTS is ready and you have filled the tank, do you have to wait for the usual spikes and the tank to cycle, or is it quicker? Or even non existent? Just curious as im looking to convert an established tank to MTS and need to work out how long ill need to relocate the current inhabitants for.


----------



## SCMurphy

crf529 said:


> Quick question with cycling once the MTS is ready and you have filled the tank, do you have to wait for the usual spikes and the tank to cycle, or is it quicker? Or even non existent? Just curious as im looking to convert an established tank to MTS and need to work out how long ill need to relocate the current inhabitants for.


If you use water from an established tank, or run your filter on an established tank before putting it on the new tank you can significantly speed up the process of getting bacteria established in the tank. The heavier you plant also affects this. I can usually put fish and such in the tank the next day without a problem (YMMV) but I have good water out of the tap to start with.


----------



## crf529

Ah k that's fantastic, I should have half the tanks volume in established water left, an already established filter and pretty good tap water, schweet. Cheers!


----------



## Wolf35

Hi all,

I was wondering if it is possible to use ferrous sulphate mono instead of potters clay as a substitute for iron in the substrate?

If so, how much should I use in relation to the soil?


----------



## SCMurphy

The Clay does other things in addition to providing iron. So no, ferrous sulphate mono cannot be used as a direct substitute for clay. If want to use it (in addition to clay), then add it to the substrate the same way that K is added (see the article).


----------



## crf529

I've been hunting around for topsoil for a while and havn't seen alot near where I am. Just found a landscape supplier though and they list their topsoil makeup as:

*Top Soil
*A high performance top-dressing. This mix contains a readily available source or nutrition.
_Contains:_ Grey River Sand, Composted Hardwood Sawdust and Chicken Manure. 

Is this the correct topsoil or should i keep looking?


----------



## ridewake210

Is there a Wal-Mart, Lowe's, Menards, Home Depot..Or any home building stores around over there in the outback?


----------



## crf529

The only store we've got is Bunnings, and all they've got is alot of potting mix.


----------



## Hoppy

crf529 said:


> I've been hunting around for topsoil for a while and havn't seen alot near where I am. Just found a landscape supplier though and they list their topsoil makeup as:
> 
> *Top Soil
> *A high performance top-dressing. This mix contains a readily available source or nutrition.
> _Contains:_ Grey River Sand, Composted Hardwood Sawdust and Chicken Manure.
> 
> Is this the correct topsoil or should i keep looking?


The whole idea of MTS was to use real topsoil, not something stores sell as topsoil. If you pay much for "topsoil" you are almost certain to be buying a lot of woody material, some fertilizers, and possibly some manure. The woody stuff won't mineralize unless it is very fine, and the manure and some fertilizers would likely take a lot of time to mineralize. Those of us who don't live in a "concrete jungle" live on topsoil, have topsoil around the building, have a yard or garden with topsoil, have a nearby park-like area with topsoil, have a river or creek nearby with topsoil, etc. So, why buy bags of stuff just labeled as "topsoil"?


----------



## lauraleellbp

Hoppy said:


> . So, why buy bags of stuff just labeled as "topsoil"?


One word- pesticides.

It's really hard to find topsoil that hasn't been contaminated. At least, not in my neck of the woods... As rural as I am, they still spray out here for mosquitoes, and that stuff can really do some damage to inverts. Not to mention all the stuff my neighbors use... plus we use stuff for termites and fireants...


----------



## chad320

lauraleellbp said:


> One word- pesticides.
> 
> It's really hard to find topsoil that hasn't been contaminated. At least, not in my neck of the woods... As rural as I am, they still spray out here for mosquitoes, and that stuff can really do some damage to inverts. Not to mention all the stuff my neighbors use... plus we use stuff for termites and fireants...


The rinse cycle will take care of that. Most serious pesticides are worthless in a few weeks.


----------



## crf529

I live out in the country, cattle and horse country, pretty much only weeds grow out here so I've no idea what has or hasn't been sprayed around near where I live to kill and control them. I don't live in a house or on a property, I live in a big accommodation complex so there's no backyard to speak of. Im just looking for an easy way to get a hold of the topsoil I need for this, one that will help my plants grow and won't kill my fish.


----------



## chad320

All youre really looking for is good black dirt. Anywhere you can get it.


----------



## crf529

Hmmmmm not much dirt round here is black lol.


----------



## ridewake210

Just brought home about 200lbs worth of top soil. 
Going to rinse it and sift it over the next few days. 

Just got done rinsing and sifting 80lbs on friday. 
Took me about an hour and a half to get it all rinsed and sifted. 
I'll start the wet/dry cycle once i get it all rinsed and sifted and 
combined.


----------



## ridewake210

200lbs of top soil is rinsed and sifted as of 20 minutes ago. 


Well i guess the rinsing int 100% done, im clearing up the water now.


----------



## crf529

Did some more ringing around, asked for topsoil that was just topsoil, no manure or sawdust added. The landscaping store said they had it, described it as a sandy loam. Is this the right stuff finally?


----------



## problemman

That's it.


----------



## crf529

Schweet. Thanks!


----------



## ridewake210

When is everyone adding the clay and how would one go about doing it?



Thanks


----------



## chad320

I add mine after the last wash cycle is dry.


----------



## ridewake210

10-4 chad


I bought some Clay and Dolomite from a guy on here, still waiting on it though. 
Just completed the first wet/dry cycle. 
With the temps coming up throughout this week, i expect to be done by next week sometime. LOL


----------



## SCMurphy

Hoppy said:


> The whole idea of MTS was to use real topsoil, not something stores sell as topsoil. If you pay much for "topsoil" you are almost certain to be buying a lot of woody material, some fertilizers, and possibly some manure. The woody stuff won't mineralize unless it is very fine, and the manure and some fertilizers would likely take a lot of time to mineralize. Those of us who don't live in a "concrete jungle" live on topsoil, have topsoil around the building, have a yard or garden with topsoil, have a nearby park-like area with topsoil, have a river or creek nearby with topsoil, etc. So, why buy bags of stuff just labeled as "topsoil"?


The whole idea was to recreate the soil structure of a wetland or pond in a manner that should be easy to do and safe for the fish (and other inhabitants). Topsoil was the closest thing I could get to the natural soil structure but it usually lacks enough clay and has too much terrestrial organic material. Mineralizing and rinsing gets rid of most any herbicides, pesticides, and chemical fertilizers. I keep saying that people can start with just about any true soil, potting, top or yard, and get it to mineralize. The bagged topsoil with no additives will mineralize faster than the other stuff so I recommend that when people ask. 

To quote Captain Barbossa, "...the code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules...", to the point, the recipe is an approximation of a wetland soil. Time and your plants will turn it into a true wetland soil.


----------



## sewingalot

Okay, here is a new one. I was on my third drying cycle and a neighborhood cat decided to use part of the soil for a.....litterbox. :hihi: Assuming I remove the part that was _utilized_, can I still finish mineralizing the rest? I was actually coming out to put the soil back in the bucket when I caught the cat in the act. I don't have time weather wise to go through a whole new process.


----------



## AaronT

sewingalot said:


> Okay, here is a new one. I was on my third drying cycle and a neighborhood cat decided to use part of the soil for a.....litterbox. :hihi: Assuming I remove the part that was _utilized_, can I still finish mineralizing the rest? I was actually coming out to put the soil back in the bucket when I caught the cat in the act. I don't have time weather wise to go through a whole new process.


I would make sure to rinse it very well several times.


----------



## sewingalot

I have been rinsing, and it still smells. Never thought about a cat being an obstacle. Looks like I am starting over. Luckily, the dirt is like $1.00 for a five gallon bucket.


----------



## Green Leaf Aquariums

I have had rocky raccoon come and destroy one of my soil jobs one time.  I feel your pain on this one...


----------



## fauxjargon

michu said:


> Could that CO2 be responsible for the rapid growth? I am amazed at how fast my plants were growing until I tore up my tank. Hopefully, I didn't destroy it all so badly that I dont' get back to the point I was. :/ The roots on the plants were amazing... to me anyway. I wasn't expecting so much root growth so quickly.
> 
> AaronT, the cap is the same as it was when I originally setup the tank... Black CQ.


In my (non-mineralized top soil tank), there is gas bubbles when I disturb the substrate. In the (small) open region where there is no plants, the bubbles do have a very faint hydrogen sulfide odor. Either way, the fish are thriving and obviously can tolerate *low* hydrogen sulfide levels in the tank. In the planted region, the bubbles have absolutely no odor, even if I put my nose right above the water and inhale as the bubbles burst. This means that the gas is likely oxygen, co2 or methane, none of which are harmful.


----------



## Jim Miller

I'm thinking of using Eco Complete to cap an MTS base layer. I like the color, particulate size and density of EC. 

Is there any reason not to do this? (cost aside...)

Does MTS afford a benefit over just doing EC for the whole substrate?

Thanks

jim


----------



## AaronT

Jim Miller said:


> I'm thinking of using Eco Complete to cap an MTS base layer. I like the color, particulate size and density of EC.
> 
> Is there any reason not to do this? (cost aside...)
> 
> Does MTS afford a benefit over just doing EC for the whole substrate?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> jim


Eco Complete should be just fine Jim.


----------



## Jim Miller

Thanks!
jim


----------



## keithy

I have a question about potassium dosing for MTS. I am using KCl as the potassium source but am afraid that I am dosing too much. What is the concentration of pottassium you want in your MTS tank and how often to dose?


----------



## Hoppy

keithy said:


> I have a question about potassium dosing for MTS. I am using KCl as the potassium source but am afraid that I am dosing too much. What is the concentration of pottassium you want in your MTS tank and how often to dose?


KCl is intended to go under the substrate, not into the water. To dose the water use KNO3 or K2SO4. Rather than try to determine the concentration of potassium in the water, just dose the water by following a routine dosing schedule, appropriate for the amount of light you have on your tank. See the sticky on fertilizing methods.


----------



## keithy

Hoppy said:


> KCl is intended to go under the substrate, not into the water. To dose the water use KNO3 or K2SO4. Rather than try to determine the concentration of potassium in the water, just dose the water by following a routine dosing schedule, appropriate for the amount of light you have on your tank. See the sticky on fertilizing methods.


thank you hoppy. I will look into getting KNO3.


----------



## SleepyOwl

Will this substrate affect PH?

Thanks!
Laura


----------



## AaronT

SleepyOwl said:


> Will this substrate affect PH?
> 
> Thanks!
> Laura


If it does it's negligible. I'm not much for testing.


----------



## AaronT

keithy said:


> I have a question about potassium dosing for MTS. I am using KCl as the potassium source but am afraid that I am dosing too much. What is the concentration of pottassium you want in your MTS tank and how often to dose?


KCL is fine to use for dosing too. I find I only need to dose about 0.5 ppm - 1.0 ppm of K per week. It really depends on what plants you are keeping. Some plants are more picky than others when it comes to needing K in the water column.


----------



## SleepyOwl

AaronT said:


> If it does it's negligible. I'm not much for testing.


Thanks! I was actually hoping it would lower my ph, but stable is better than making it rise.


----------



## chad320

SleepyOwl said:


> Thanks! I was actually hoping it would lower my ph, but stable is better than making it rise.


That is really dependant on whether you add a layer of peat or the tpye of clay you decide to use. those two seem to have a bigger effect than the dirt/sand itself.


----------



## SleepyOwl

chad320 said:


> That is really dependant on whether you add a layer of peat or the tpye of clay you decide to use. those two seem to have a bigger effect than the dirt/sand itself.


Thanks...
Will clay raise or lower ph?


----------



## chad320

Clay will usually raise your Ph. This is determined by what kind of clay you use. Grey clays do, reds, not so much.


----------



## funkyfish

Ok guys need advice on what to do. 
My 55g set up with MTS capped with ceramaquarts since colorquartz is not available anymore, but I think when I prepped the MTS I didn't pack it tight on the bottom so now after a month it still has air pockets. My plants don't seem to grow as they did in my 10g with the same set up. I am thinking due to those pockets my plants not showing much growth or it could be because most came from high tech tank and still acclimating, but then why is water spryte looks like it's not growing ether?
I did a lot of poking around to release some of it with tweezers and bamboo skewer stick I poked so much that my water was very cloudy for a day or so and I think some of the soil is actually got mixed with sand now... *sigh* I replanted everything and haven't touched the soil since. 
Now should I still poke around once in a while or leave it alone? Also when I press in some places air bubbles come out. 
Do my plants growing slowly due to them acclimating or just because something wrong with my soil due to my doing? 

I got soil from TheCryptKeeper and it was standing for a while in the garage... But I know it's not the soil, my 10g is set up with soil from him too and I had a great success with it.
Maybe I am just impatient and everything is not as bad as it seems... 

Thanks and sorry for a long post just want to see what you guys think. :biggrin:


----------



## CK_Beastie

Sorry to be newb, but is this fine by itself?


----------



## Hoppy

CK_Beastie said:


> Sorry to be newb, but is this fine by itself?


No, I don't think this is good at all, because it contains guano and pearlite, neither of which is good for MTS. The pearlite particles will still float out of the substrate 100 years from now, and the guano takes a lot of mineralizing to convert all of that ammonia to nitrates.


----------



## funkyfish

Anyone has any suggestions for me or can answer my questions from my previous post? Please?! 

I also noticed some stem rot on some of my Clinopodium brownei as I was doing water change today and as pressed on the substrate there is a ton of air comes out of multiple places... I just want to know how to fix it and if my tank is going to pull through ...


----------



## chad320

Funkyfish, sometimes the substrate traps air when its being filled up with water and you can just press it out. If it continues, and it smells like sulphur or rotten eggs then theres too much organic matter in your soil. Id still be patient and let it try to come around. Sometimes this isnt an option if its melting your stems. I have had better luck with Walstad or MTS tanks by giving them a month to come around once its in the tank.


----------



## funkyfish

chad320 said:


> Funkyfish, sometimes the substrate traps air when its being filled up with water and you can just press it out. If it continues, and it smells like sulphur or rotten eggs then theres too much organic matter in your soil. Id still be patient and let it try to come around. Sometimes this isnt an option if its melting your stems. I have had better luck with Walstad or MTS tanks by giving them a month to come around once its in the tank.


Thanks for the response! I am a little impatient and just want everything to be perfect... So I guess the good thing is that it doesn't smell like rotten eggs and doesn't affect my water parameters, fish are unaffected as well when I press out the air out of substrate. My crypts are doing great and it's only some plants that have stem rot I am just trying to figure out why it's happening, most plants have nice aerial roots and anubias with java fern are doing great. I have to remember that 55g is a lot different than 10g and be a little more patient  

If anyone has any other suggestions or explanations I would like to hear them all. :icon_bigg Thanks


----------



## Hoppy

I have been putting my MTS into the tank pretty wet, like non-runny mud, so it didn't take any effort to pack it down a bit. That may be why I hever had the air bubble problem. I also fill with water pretty slowly, which allow air to escape easily.


----------



## funkyfish

Hoppy said:


> I have been putting my MTS into the tank pretty wet, like non-runny mud, so it didn't take any effort to pack it down a bit. That may be why I hever had the air bubble problem. I also fill with water pretty slowly, which allow air to escape easily.


I though I mixed it well with water and packed it well but apparently not because I never had such a problem in my 10g. I think I got overly excited to finally set up my 55g that I didn't think about it. I always fill the water very slowly so I don't think that caused it. I just hope it will resolves over time with me pressing out the air *sigh* 
This tank is definitely becoming an adventure and I just hope it will pull through and the air problem will go away soon, it has to work out tho because with baby coming in a week I will not have much time for my tanks.


----------



## chad320

funkyfish said:


> I though I mixed it well with water and packed it well but apparently not because I never had such a problem in my 10g. I think I got overly excited to finally set up my 55g that I didn't think about it. I always fill the water very slowly so I don't think that caused it. I just hope it will resolves over time with me pressing out the air *sigh*
> This tank is definitely becoming an adventure and I just hope it will pull through and the air problem will go away soon, it has to work out tho because with baby coming in a week I will not have much time for my tanks.


Burp tank, burp baby, repeat....:hihi:


----------



## funkyfish

chad320 said:


> Burp tank, burp baby, repeat....:hihi:


So this is what my life will be like from now on?! Oy vei! LOL :icon_lol:


----------



## chad320

Im sure youll be fine after the first time you get the air out.


----------



## funkyfish

I been doing it weekly for at least 3 weeks now and it seems like it's keeps building up... I guess I will have to just wait and see. It has to get better and go away soon. But I do have a feeling that I will be burping baby and burping tank for a while :hihi:


----------



## SleepyOwl

How are you guys doing this during the winter? I have cats and small children, so I am a bit worried about leaving it on a tarp on the basement floor to dry. Any ideas? (I want to make enough for a 40B. ) How deep does it need to be in the tank. I will be covering it with gravel. 

TIA,
Laura


----------



## SleepyOwl

Does anyone have excess dolomite, potash and clay laying around they will be willing to sell part of?  I really don't want to run around with three small children, only to have to buy huge bags of stuff. lol


----------



## BayBoy1205

Really considering tearing my 125G down and redoing it with MTS. I have a question though. Are those that are running MTS injecting CO2?

I collected some soil out of the creek the other day and let it settle in a jar. I noticed red worms in there. So I baked the soils to kill anything else in there. Looks like I shouldn't have baked the soil. Will the rinse/dry cycles take care of anything living in the soil? Or would it be best to collect the soil that is not in the creek?

Thanks,
Matt


----------



## flowmsp

I have MTS in my 100g and inject co2. No problems with it yet, and i have seen good plant growth!


----------



## Pri

I've started doing some MTS with backyard soil today. Already removed all big debris, rinsed the soil and left it soaking...
I'm am not sure to find dolomite over here. I will replace it with coral sand and Epsom salts. 
My questions : 
- Can I mix the coral sand with the MTS or I need to put it in the tank before putting the MTS?
- Is clay compulsory in the MTS? Not sure to find some here. Can it be replaced with something else?

Thanks,

My planted tank http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/2076-Pri.html
My Cichlid tank http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/2075-Pri.html
My DIY project Journal http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...88-125g-pond-river-waterfall-diy-project.html
My Betta Pico http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/122780-black-white-planted-pico.html


----------



## mrchach

clay is your source for iron... i would suggest using it...


----------



## Baadboy11

Clay also helps keep your soil intact as one layer instead of it dissolving and coming up through the substrate. Check pottery stores, art supply stores, etc. Or ask on SAS or look online.


----------



## yetti82

Here is my setup for drying as I have been having trouble finding a place dry the soil.

20 gallon Long tank with a DIY hood containing two T10 bulbs. I had it sitting on the underside of a tent since I didn't want to go out and buy a tarp lol. after a couple days of this and nothing seeming to dry up at any rate that would get this done in under 6 months. I decided to try the spare 20G long I had in the garage.

My biggest question is if the soil has to completely dry or not? I understand that the microbs need the air exposure to do thier thing but if I just keep it moist and the simulated light on it will it do it's thing in only two cycles or even one instead of going for four?


----------



## chad320

Here are a few tips for wintertime MTS... Any container you put it in will dry faster if you tip it and siphon off the excess. Store it open top (obviously) and put a fan on it. The steralite/rubbermaid slide under the bed boxes are cheap and very useful for outta sight/ outta mind work. The MTS does not and should not stink and this has worked for me. Your signifigant other may think otherwise  It will work even faster if you can place it by a heater vent. I use top soil and/ or wormcastings and I dont recommend drying it less than three times. Use a good sifter and rinse well if you plan to use less dry cycles.


----------



## Pri

> clay is your source for iron... i would suggest using it...





> Clay also helps keep your soil intact as one layer instead of it dissolving and coming up through the substrate. Check pottery stores, art supply stores, etc. Or ask on SAS or look online.



Do you have any replacement option for the clay?? I'm not in US and buying Online is complicated!

I'm am not sure to find dolomite over here. I will replace it with coral sand and Epsom salts.
My questions :
- Can I mix the coral sand with the MTS or I need to put it in the tank before putting the MTS?


My planted tank http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/2076-Pri.html
My Cichlid tank http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/myTanks/2075-Pri.html
My DIY project Journal http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/t...88-125g-pond-river-waterfall-diy-project.html
My Betta Pico http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/planted-nano-tanks/122780-black-white-planted-pico.html


----------



## SNSDFAN

*HERES A SITE AL ABOUT THE SOIL PLANTED AQUARIUM...* thgh it might have other stuff... but mostly all their aquariums are topsoiled or garden soiled... they have a video of them putting soil in the tank and doing the muddy thingy....* CHECK IT OUT! *http://www.fishtanktv.com/


----------



## mrchach

what if instead of pot ash and dolomite you used miracle gro water soluble all purpose plant food.

http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod70342&itemId=cat50106&tabs=usage


----------



## lauraleellbp

mrchach said:


> what if instead of pot ash and dolomite you used miracle gro water soluble all purpose plant food.
> 
> http://www.scotts.com/smg/catalog/productTemplate.jsp?proId=prod70342&itemId=cat50106&tabs=usage


Not a suitable substitute. Most commercial fertilizers are urea-based and are likely to cause ammonia problems in a tank.


----------



## mrchach

lauraleellbp said:


> Not a suitable substitute. Most commercial fertilizers are urea-based and are likely to cause ammonia problems in a tank.


Thats what I was thinking but I wasn't sure, I read on the box it contained ammonia and Urea. I thought it might be ok but thanks for clarifying that.


----------



## Hoppy

You can use Osmocote under the substrate. And, you can add cushed coral or other calcium carbonate substances in place of the dolomite, if you want to. Dolomite dissolves much more slowly than calcium carbonates, so it is much better.


----------



## mistergreen

You can use a little urea, I mean a little, and bury it deep in the substrate.


----------



## SleepyOwl

I am going to try organic fertilizer spikes that I got from Home Depot in place of the potash.
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs...talogId=10053&productId=202297863&R=202297863

It was around $4. It ends up being a lot more expensive than potash, but I didn't have to go searching for it, or have a huge bag left over. 

Ingredients are
Feather meal
bone meal
potash

The only thing I am slightly worried about is the feather meal. I looked it up, and it seems it is used in a lot of fish food (commercial fish food for fish farms I think.) 

I am still going to try it though.


----------



## Kibblemania1414

can you guys maybe give a specific brand/bag of potting mix i can use? please..


----------



## HungrySpleen

*mts dirt clods*

well my MTS is about ready to go except for the fact that its all 1" clods. i assume this is normal but how did you guys get yours to dusty sweetness? 

pound the crud out of it with a hammer? put it in a bag and slam it on the ground?


----------



## flowmsp

HungrySpleen said:


> well my MTS is about ready to go except for the fact that its all 1" clods. i assume this is normal but how did you guys get yours to dusty sweetness?
> 
> pound the crud out of it with a hammer? put it in a bag and slam it on the ground?


Run it through a sifter. Use window screen to be cheap but effective.


----------



## HungrySpleen

it is to hard to sift , and rubbing it across the screen would take weeks, its hard like rocks. never seen anyone else having this problem but i feel kinda ridiculous being beaten by dirt. would getting it damp be ok?


----------



## SleepyOwl

I skipped the sifting process, and you get it wet before you put it in, so you can break it up that way. Of course, I just set up my tank 2 days ago, so don't know if skipping the sifting hurt or not.. ymmv


----------



## lauraleellbp

If you've got rocks in it, I'd toss them- that's the point of sifting, to pull out rocks, sticks, etc.

Everyone's top soil tends to be a bit different.

The only stuff I could find was so bad it took 4 bags just to get a few gallons of actual soil. The rest was all bark and peat, and I had to sift several times to get it all out. :icon_frow


----------



## HungrySpleen

SleepyOwl said:


> I skipped the sifting process, and you get it wet before you put it in, so you can break it up that way. Of course, I just set up my tank 2 days ago, so don't know if skipping the sifting hurt or not.. ymmv



dang my head hurts from your genius :hihi: . i should thought of sifting when wet!!!


----------



## SleepyOwl

HungrySpleen said:


> dang my head hurts from your genius :hihi: . i should thought of sifting when wet!!!


:red_mouth lol


I meant that I didn't sift all. The clumps just go away when wet.... I mashed all with my hands.


----------



## HungrySpleen

i found a nail in the soil yesterday and ive been trying to figure out how to sift without hammering it into oblivion in the freezing cold outside. you helped me solve my problem of incredibly hard clumps so, thank you very much.


----------



## Pri

What quantity of Potassium Sulfate salts should I put in my 33g tank before putting my MTS?


----------



## yetti82

So I have everything except the potters clay. I do have flourite which I know is high in iron and I'm wondering if i can use that instead to mix in?


----------



## SCMurphy

yetti82 said:


> So I have everything except the potters clay. I do have flourite which I know is high in iron and I'm wondering if i can use that instead to mix in?


No, you can use the flourite as a cap but it will not complete the soil mix the same way clay does.


----------



## SleepyOwl

Well, I didn't sift my MTS, and apparently I should have. I soaked and dried 4 times, and by the time I was done, it looked like it should, I think (very fine, almost chalky). It didn't have any organic pieces more than 1/4 inch in it, and it didn't seem like much, so I didn't bother sifting. Now I am wishing that I did, because my substrate is still producing lots of gas bubbles 3 weeks later. *sigh* 

Anyone have any idea how long it might take to settle itself out? My plants are not doing so well either. Some of my stems have new growth, but all of the plants are doing very poorly.... many melting away. (I put some of the same plants in my other tank and they are doing well, so I know it isn't just normal melt.)


----------



## wootlaws

this is probably a noob question but if i go with this setup how often do i need to clean the substrate, if any? and if i do, how would i go about doing this? also how long can i keep this substrate without changing?

i checked about 10 stores today and unfortunately could not find any of the items that were brought up in this thread. i have checked lowes , home depot, michaels, and all my lfs (mostly reef supplies). 

most if not all of the top soil include peat moss, and/or mixed with manure.

i took a picture of the clay i had in question i had found at michaels. i am wondering if this is the raw clay i am looking for.


----------



## moonshinetheslacker

Wootlaws, I did some MTS a month or two ago, and I had a hard time finding stuff. This is what I did;

Couldn't find clay, so I set some steel wool in a tupperware container filled with water for a week. The nasty, black water, I mixed in with the soil, then rinsed the steel wool in the tupperware and poured that water in with the dirt as well.

Couldn't find muriate of potash, which is just fancy speak for potassium chloride. You've seen it in your grocery store labeled NOSALT, a salt substitute. I used that instead.

Couldn't find dolomite, but dolomite is just calcium carbonate and magnesium. I grabbed some reptile sand from the local pet store that was labeled "all living things" reptile sand. It doesn't have the magnesium, but it does have the calcium.

Might not be the best advice in the world, but so far, all my fish are healthy, and none of my plants melted upon being planted, even the crypts (which I hear is really common with crypts) Everything looks totally healthy. Hope this helps.


----------



## brinks

With this set up, when you pull up a plant, is it going to cloud the tank. I had a tank with clay and vermiculite under the substrate and it would be cloudy for quite a while.


----------



## brinks

how bad does the water cloud when you pull up a plant?


----------



## chad320

Depends on your cap, filtration, and how gently you pull them out along with the size/ root ball of the plant. MTS is pretty light and will cloud your tank rearranging things. Mine has never clouded more than a day or two.


----------



## takadi

I don't know if this was already mentioned, but is it necessary to dry out the MTS with sunlight? Does it also matter how fast it dries out?


----------



## Jim Miller

You're not really trying to dry it out completely. You're trying to keep it warm and damp and loose enough to make for good aeration. These are conditions that promote the bacteria growth and activity that break down the organics so that they can later be accessible by the plants.

You can accomplish the same thing by keeping it under a heat lamp in the basement which is what I did.

Turn it often if it isn't spread out and rewet it when it gets nearly dry.

Notice the smell on the first wet. It will smell pretty earthy. After the 4th or 5th wet there will be very little smell. That's when it's ready for full drying and sifting.

Have fun!

Jim


----------



## takadi

If the whole point is to keep it damp, aerated, and warm, isn't the whole drying and wetting process a little inefficient?


----------



## Jim Miller

Not if sunlight is free...and the neighborhood cats stay away. Most folks don't have the time or patience to keep it "optimally" wet. Further it's not obvious what is optimal. So cycling is not a bad choice.

jim


----------



## home grown

I want to eventually do enough research on top-soil but wow 57 pages...


----------



## Jim Miller

Just read the article referenced in the first post and forget all the other blabber and you'll be fine. 

It's on Aquatic Plant Central here: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/?p=vB52554

jim


----------



## mrchach

What happens if you only top your MTS with 1/2" topper instead of 1" or better


----------



## SleepyOwl

It will be a lot harder to cover evenly, and you will have a greater chance of having cloudy water more often, and having dirt come to the top of the cap. I have about 1 -1.5 inches over mine, and I wish I had just a tad more.


----------



## bpb

i'm noticing alot of people who use bagged soil are keeping in the sticks and bits of mulch and bark. I used locally dug topsoil and it is mostly clay, sand, and rocks. I've been mineralizing it for a couple weeks, and will continue to do so for the next 8 weeks (moving in two months, so I am in no hurry to tear down the tank and switch substrate). I screened it in the first rinsing using a window screen and water hose. I am left with two containers, one with really fine dirt only, and the other with red clay and bits of rock that were mixed in. 

Is this correct? Or am I supposed to have alot of the woody pulp and manure that everyone else appears to have. Mine is very very dense and when I rinse it, it compacts when it dries. I'll have to only use about 1/2 an inch and then cap it otherwise it would compact too tight in the tank.


----------



## SCMurphy

bpb said:


> i'm noticing alot of people who use bagged soil are keeping in the sticks and bits of mulch and bark. I used locally dug topsoil and it is mostly clay, sand, and rocks. I've been mineralizing it for a couple weeks, and will continue to do so for the next 8 weeks (moving in two months, so I am in no hurry to tear down the tank and switch substrate). I screened it in the first rinsing using a window screen and water hose. I am left with two containers, one with really fine dirt only, and the other with red clay and bits of rock that were mixed in.
> 
> Is this correct? Or am I supposed to have alot of the woody pulp and manure that everyone else appears to have. Mine is very very dense and when I rinse it, it compacts when it dries. I'll have to only use about 1/2 an inch and then cap it otherwise it would compact too tight in the tank.


You are fine. You can't compare using yard soil and bagged soil, The bagging process is very inattentive, whereas digging your own lets you discard any questionable shovelful.


----------



## BillU

Having trouble finding dolomite local - but i found this i would imagine it would be at the local health food store - will this work??

http://www.google.com/products/cata...=X&ei=vh2hTe3bM5Cw0QGZ9OyZBQ&ved=0CDYQ8wIwBA#


----------



## takadi

I imagine that would cost alot of money to do any good. Do you have a gardening store around you? A lowe's or a home depot? They almost always have lime, which is almost always dolomitic. If not, you can easily buy it in bulk online. Try GLA, they have some calcium and magnesium supplements


----------



## Hoppy

http://www.aquariumfertilizer.com/i...rnEdit=2&Returnitemname=&ReturnShowItemStart= is a good source for dolomite, as well as other fertilizers and fertilizing stuff.


----------



## BillU

thanks - i would think the dolomitic lime woudl affect the PH ? maybe not - the link above is great that's the way i will go.


----------



## scapegoat

going to be starting my MTS this evening. Was wondering how approximately how many bags of top soil i'll need to 1" of MTS in a 90g? 4'x2' foot print


----------



## SleepyOwl

I would probably do 3 if I were you. I did one bag for my 40 breeder, and only ended up about 1/2 an inch.


----------



## jetajockey

If you want 1" it'd probably take about 2 bags of topsoil, it just depends on how much you end up screening out.

As far as the dolomite goes, the health food store stuff works, if you don't mind grinding it up or can find it in powder form. You are looking for CaMg(CO3)2, not the gardening stuff with the calcium oxide/magnesium oxide in it (i.e. pelletized lime, quicklime, etc)

That being said, I've used it before, and in the small amount that is needed, I've not seen an issue because of it, but I'd still get the CaMg(CO3) since it's not caustic.

If anyone needs any of the materials in smaller amounts let me know I can get it to you cheaply, since most tanks only need like an ounce of each or less.


----------



## irbenson

Is it okay to use just MTS without a cap? I will avoid fish that like to dig a lot.


----------



## bpb

I am no expert, but I think the cap has several purposes. First, it helps keep the nutrients concentrated in the substrate. Second, it helps keep the mts from getting stirred up. I am on the final dry cycle of my locally dug mts and at this point the grain size is TINY and when you combine that with the clay, it will likely be impossible to have clear water because the fine particles with b stirred up so easily. Lastly, if you're using bagged soil, you will always be battling floating particles. Those are just my thoughts. Again, i dont have a ton of experience to speak of, just some research. I would just use some cheap black gravel or sand as the cap and call it a day.


----------



## playaslk

ok this is a dumb q but i went to Osh (kinda like HD) and bought a bag of Natural Potting Soil. By the time i dried it and sifted it, there is no actual dirt. Im looking at the fine powder of "stuff" and it has little tiny sticks (that went through window screening) and things of that nature, but there isnt actual "dirt, soil, or w/e else im supposed to have). Am i missing the boat here? This crappola took me 2 weeks to dry/complete

Thanks


----------



## mrchach

ive noticed a few people here are making a mistake I have learned to avoid...

Sift your soil before your start to wet and dry it!

no point in mineralizing things your going to sift out anyways


----------



## Mrg0nzalez1

Made a mistake and DID NOT cap the soil!! Capping is nessacary! I hope this helps someone else so they do not have to go through what I just did.


----------



## mojof1

i had difficulty finding soil without additives/fertilizer

i did find one that the sales person said would be suitable for my needs.
the ingredients lists these: peat humus, compost, sphagnum mpeat moss, perlite, limestone, micro nutrients

this is soil from brand called fafard. can someone tell me if this soil is ok to use?
thx


----------



## mojof1

anyone?

actually, i put it in a water bottle, shook it, and left it overnight and when i checked this moring, the soil fell to the bottom but the water is like a tea color. i guess that would be an indication that it is inappropriate?




mojof1 said:


> i had difficulty finding soil without additives/fertilizer
> 
> i did find one that the sales person said would be suitable for my needs.
> the ingredients lists these: peat humus, compost, sphagnum mpeat moss, perlite, limestone, micro nutrients
> 
> this is soil from brand called fafard. can someone tell me if this soil is ok to use?
> thx


----------



## Coltonorr

mojof1 said:


> i had difficulty finding soil without additives/fertilizer
> 
> i did find one that the sales person said would be suitable for my needs.
> the ingredients lists these: peat humus, compost, sphagnum mpeat moss, perlite, limestone, micro nutrients
> 
> this is soil from brand called fafard. can someone tell me if this soil is ok to use?
> thx


Mojo
I would continue to just look for plan old dirt. If you can find a stone yard or landscaping nursery they usually have topsoil you can purchase.


----------



## mojof1

Coltonorr said:


> Mojo
> I would continue to just look for plan old dirt. If you can find a stone yard or landscaping nursery they usually have topsoil you can purchase.


another follow up
i was just driving to a starbucks and took a different path than i usually do for no reason. i happen to drive by a nursery, which happens to be open today when everything is supposed to be closed for holiday and finally found top soil that does not seem to have any additive/fertilizer. will be experimenting with this, thx!


----------



## jetajockey

best of luck, it should be the ultra cheap stuff without any littler fertilizer balls in it or peat.


----------



## plantbrain

I'm trying to come up with a good rational to use mineralization at all.
ADA does not do this with AS, they suggest a few water changes extra for the initial 1-2 months, by which time, any organic soil is already mineralized. 

Now you cannot poo poo NH4..........it's also quite high in ADA As tanks in the start up........

Water changes reduce/remove the "organics", the NH4 and depression in O2.

So........give me a good reason why bother with this step at all?
If it's for the bacteria, they will much better served and not require additional time by being added to the new tank and form their stratified laying again.

If you do a dry start method, now you have both plant roots and bacterial interactions and full mineralization prior to filling and established root systems, no algae.

Can anyone entertain me as to why we need to mineralize soil prior to use?
ADA seems to "eek" by. It's a simple question, I've read the threads and find no real support for doing this step. A new tank still need a full break down and dry set up. So folks will wait anyhow before fish are added.


----------



## audioaficionado

I was looking at AS, but all the leaching and mud put me off. Same with top soil. I'm thinking of slow release minerals mixed in with the bottom 2/3 of my usual #3 dark brown/tan aquarium gravel (no white rocks). Root fert supplements and water column ferts should work fine long term. Problem I've seen with fine particulate substrates is methane gas or yet worse hydrogen sulfide from anaerobic activity.


----------



## plantbrain

ADA AS has no more leeching than anything else, and the mud......what is soil + water? I've got 5 years of usage, tank still looks nice.

I also do not need a cap.
This cost spread over time is a large factor, but many see it as a hit early on, vs what they want and like over the longer term. Many things are like this in the hobby in terms of economics etc.

CH4 gas and H2S have not occurred for myself in ADA AS, mostly due to thr spherical nature of the soil/clay. Plenty of O2 can exchange, after th soil is a few months old, even if it compacts, breaks down, there's less organic matter than can be reductive enough to form CH4 and H2S, so this moot. 

If one does a DSM, or simply does the water fill and skips the mineralization, this will still occur, but the latter will take a little longer. But........most plants form lots and lots of roots, which are like pipes for O2.........so there should not be strong reduction after a few months of growth.

Where do you think aquatic grow in natural systems? The soils there are very reductive, organic loading is intense. You can find plants in virtually every type of sediment redox level. Quite well.

Mineralization helped reduce the % water changes needed in the initial set up I would argue, but the bacterial community strata is going to take at least 6-8 weeks to reform, during which plant roots should already be in place and active.


----------



## audioaficionado

I'm waiting on some more results on the latest version of ADA AS. The II version seemed to have some structural breakdown issues compared to the first version and that put me off considering the hassle of an other wise unnecessary tank breakdown plus the additional $$$ for new substrate.

The $$$ cost is worth it as long as there is long term stability and benefits overall.

I've got to admit that some of the tanks here with the AS substrate look pretty good compared to my plain looking #3 gravel.


----------



## Dergoma

Hi guys, Ive Checked my Local LFS and Garden Nursery for the 3 Items for the Bottom of the Tank, Potash, Dolomite and Clay, and none carry anything less then 40-100 lbs bags anyone willing to part some extra enough for a 29 Gallon, i would Pay obviously and would be most appreciated. Just enough to cover the bottom of a 29.


----------



## Hoppy

plantbrain said:


> I'm trying to come up with a good rational to use mineralization at all.
> ADA does not do this with AS, they suggest a few water changes extra for the initial 1-2 months, by which time, any organic soil is already mineralized.
> 
> Now you cannot poo poo NH4..........it's also quite high in ADA As tanks in the start up........
> 
> Water changes reduce/remove the "organics", the NH4 and depression in O2.
> 
> So........give me a good reason why bother with this step at all?
> If it's for the bacteria, they will much better served and not require additional time by being added to the new tank and form their stratified laying again.
> 
> If you do a dry start method, now you have both plant roots and bacterial interactions and full mineralization prior to filling and established root systems, no algae.
> 
> Can anyone entertain me as to why we need to mineralize soil prior to use?
> ADA seems to "eek" by. It's a simple question, I've read the threads and find no real support for doing this step. A new tank still need a full break down and dry set up. So folks will wait anyhow before fish are added.


When I first used river silt I dug from a bank along the American River, I did no mineralizing of the soil. I just dumped it in the tank, leveled it, added a 1.5-2 inch layer of black Soilmaster stuff and added water and plants. For about a week my condo smelled like a swamp! I think that is the only real problem that mineralizing eliminates. Since I have been mineralizing that same silt for other setups I haven't had the swamp smell.

I'm tempted to say that because I ate a salmon dinner the day I set up my last tank, and wore a nice brown tee shirt while doing it, those steps contributed to my success with the MTS. But, I've decided not do say that.


----------



## Optix

thread is a good read with a lot of useful information spread throughout

I think what it is _really_ missing here are PICTURES!
pictures of the mineralization process start to finish...pictures of tanks...pictures of old established tanks

someone?

Im gonna start a small batch of MTS (enough for a 2.5g) and get some pics going...if anyones interested


**EDIT**
6-18-2011
still working on mineralizing a batch and its actually done ~2wks w/ pics showing the process, just cant get enough sunny days to dry it out before it starts raining again :-/


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

Does anyone have any experience with MTS in a high-tech tank?


----------



## SCMurphy

Lil' Swimz$ said:


> Does anyone have any experience with MTS in a high-tech tank?


Yes it works fine, since you will be growing some stuff that does not grow the greatest root systems you might want to do some supplemental fertilizing. Blyxa is a good example of something that has to have ferts in the water column.



playaslk said:


> ok this is a dumb q but i went to Osh (kinda like HD) and bought a bag of Natural Potting Soil. By the time i dried it and sifted it, there is no actual dirt. Im looking at the fine powder of "stuff" and it has little tiny sticks (that went through window screening) and things of that nature, but there isnt actual "dirt, soil, or w/e else im supposed to have). Am i missing the boat here? This crappola took me 2 weeks to dry/complete
> 
> Thanks


That is what you wanted it to look like, a nice fine silt.


----------



## yellowsno

*clay*

ive been looking at clays and just wondering if i was able to use either

http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_product.cfm?item=37854

http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_product.cfm?item=70115

http://www.amaco.com/shop/product-2...lay-no-77-mid-high-fire-cone-5-talc-free.html

for the clay 

i wasnt sure as i tried looking up earthen but none of them mentioned anything about that... but they all are terra cotta...


----------



## Optix

forgot about this thread ...pictures soon


----------



## yellowsno

what brand clay did u use in your tank optix?


----------



## Optix

I live in the south

...I could walk out my front door...take 4 steps into the yard and I have about 6ft of red clay beneath me









not where I live...but the soil is almost identical...I mean every earth work project looks almost identical to this at least


----------



## yellowsno

sigh ok what about those of us that live in the north that doesnt have access to this... and are surrounded by salt water so river silt is out the question 2? can someone post their result with a brand clay they used so those of us who are unfortunate can see some result with the 50 bigillion different potters clays?


----------



## aczeller

this is an awesome deal guys. thanks for the thread. I know that I will be doing this myself as soon as I can. I have a standard 55g tank and am looking into getting it set up as a planted tank before winter this year... however, i have a couple questions:

1.) what is the exact purpose of the clay? do i really need it?
2.) if I plan on dosing, do i really need to get the potash and dolemite?
3.) i'm thinking 2 bags of TS should cover my tank... for other people who have 55g setups, this sounds right... right?
4.) this has always stumped me: how do you guys fill your tanks without disturbing your substrates? ever time i add water to a tank that is at least 1/2 empty, i mess up the gravel... any tips?

thanks for the ideas guys... i really appreciate this forum!

Later,
Andy


----------



## DogFish

I'd like to ask about MTS in terms of volume vs.pounds. 

For a 40B tank, would a 5gl pail equal about 2" of depth? This will be easier for me gage how much MTS I need to build. I value life too much to use my wifey's new bath scale to weight dirt.


----------



## sewingalot

I did a 55 gallon tank and had about 4/5 of a 5 gallon bucket full and had more than enough left over.


----------



## DogFish

sewingalot - Thanks!


----------



## shonick

I couldn't find the one you guys mentioned in this thread. But I found different one.

Is this one good?









Rich dark, all natural soil
great for raising flower beds
ideal for filling hole in your yard


----------



## rick_lindsey

It's definately good for filling holes in your yard! I could use some of that...

-Rick (the armchair aquarist)


----------



## jcgd

All I could find for topsoil was this type. I couldn't find a comprehensive list of ingredients.










I sifted out this:









And was left with this:









After soaking for a few days:










Does this look right?

Also, I could only find dolomite lime. Is that the same thing as plain ol' dolomite?


----------



## DogFish

Wow! That a lot off extra FREE stuff, kinda like a ROAK of sticks & rocks :hihi:

You might want to look at this on the Swap page: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/146094-minerlaized-topsoil-mts-dirt-supplies.html

I bought one of Colin's MTS packages and it saved me a lot of time & money searching for "parts" to build my MTS. He's great forum member and he'll treat you right. Tell him DogFish sent you. :biggrin:

BTW - Your washed soil looks right to me.


----------



## aczeller

jcgd said:


> All I could find for topsoil was this type. I couldn't find a comprehensive list of ingredients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I sifted out this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And was left with this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> After soaking for a few days:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does this look right?
> 
> Also, I could only find dolomite lime. Is that the same thing as plain ol' dolomite?


i'm not sure about the dolomite, but the soil seems fine. once that batch dries out, you will want to re-soak it, then dry it back out at least 2 or 3 more times. eventually, it will start to turn grey. Also, you will get the soil dryer, faster, if you spreadit out more on your tarp. as far as evaporation and mineralization goes, it's all about evaporative surface area.

Later,
Andy


----------



## jcgd

DogFish said:


> Wow! That a lot off extra FREE stuff, kinda like a ROAK of sticks & rocks :hihi:
> 
> You might want to look at this on the Swap page: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/146094-minerlaized-topsoil-mts-dirt-supplies.html
> 
> I bought one of Colin's MTS packages and it saved me a lot of time & money searching for "parts" to build my MTS. He's great forum member and he'll treat you right. Tell him DogFish sent you. :biggrin:
> 
> BTW - Your washed soil looks right to me.


I know, right? I got two five gallon pails of lovely wood out of 100L of soil. After I soaked/ stirred it, more floated to the top.

I looked into buying it pre-mineralized, but his package for a 40 gallon is $40, so for my 165 gallon I'm assuming it'll be $140+. Kinda defeats the purpose... as I'm at about $13 right now. And I'd need to ship it internationally. That usually doesn't go down so well.





aczeller said:


> i'm not sure about the dolomite, but the soil seems fine. once that batch dries out, you will want to re-soak it, then dry it back out at least 2 or 3 more times. eventually, it will start to turn grey. Also, you will get the soil dryer, faster, if you spreadit out more on your tarp. as far as evaporation and mineralization goes, it's all about evaporative surface area.
> 
> Later,
> Andy


Yeah, about the spreading... I didn't have a decent tool to use, so I did what I could with the lid for my soaking bin. I didn't want to take up too much space as this is all going on in my landlord's backyard and they think I'm nuts as it is. Whenever he walks by me he says "substrate" with a heavy lisp. :icon_cool


----------



## Ziggy

I'm new to this concept, trying to read as much as I can before I have a go at it. One question I have which I don't think has been asked is with such a dense, compact substrate, will anaerobic bacteria (and the infamous gas they produce) be an issue?


----------



## Mxx

I'm looking at making up my own underlay soil mix, and am planning on using either worm castings, or a mix of composted manure and mineral garden soil, or possibly all three together. I'd be boiling the mix for 15 minutes (outdoors) once I add the other ingredients so I'm not worried about the ammonia/etc as that should immediately mineralize it. I'm also thinking of adding a little sand to give it a little weight, 15% green powdered clay to flocculate it. And following the boiling I'll let the entire mix evaporate to a fairly solid mud form, or possibly an altogether dry form which I can then use as powder. 

I'll add a sprinking of Dolomite Lime, Potash, fritted trace elements, and Micronized Iron as well. before I'd put the MTS down in the tank, unless I should keep it in the mix instead? Does that all seem like it would work? I was also considering adding some peat, but don't want it tinging the water I guess, and it can overeact with the iron. And then I'll cap that with something similar to 3M ColorQuartz Sand. However, I was worried that using composted manure would add too much sulfur and risk problematic Hydrogen Sulfide production?

And though I know they're not considered necessary now in terms of keeping plant roots warm, I'm still thinking I'll use substrate heating cable to keep a little flow in the substrate to try and keep allelochemicals flushing out, but would that flush out the nutrients as well, and make them available to algae instead of the plants?

The only nutrients I'd plan to dose in the water column would be Potassium, Calcium, and Magnesium. 

I based the plan in no small part on this article, though I varied from its advice as well - http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm


----------



## Hoppy

Dolomite lime is another way to describe dolomite, which is a calcium/magnesium carbonate substance. Calcium carbonate is limestone.


----------



## jcgd

Hoppy said:


> Dolomite lime is another way to describe dolomite, which is a calcium/magnesium carbonate substance. Calcium carbonate is limestone.


Great, thanks. I thought so but I wasn't 100% sure.


----------



## jetajockey

jcgd said:


> Great, thanks. I thought so but I wasn't 100% sure.


Be careful though, the stuff I've found in my local big box stores has always been quicklime under the name of 'dolomitic limestone' and 'dolomite lime'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide I ended up having to order in dolomite (camg)(co3)2 from a bulk supplier. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolomite

You may be able to find it through a pottery supply place, the same place you'd find clay powder.


----------



## Nostromos

*MTS capping*

So my first attempt at putting mineralized top soil in a tank with a sand cap was less than perfect and has resulted in a pain in the ass tank.

Where I feel I went wrong was after putting the in the MTS I rinsed my flourite black sand and then proceeded to spread it out in the tank. What happened was that the MTS was a little too soupy and when I tried to spread the wet sand overtop it sank partially in to the MTS soup creating spill over on top of the sand.

Now I have dirty sand that isnt black at all but a closer to a brown/grey color. There are thin spots in the sand where I can actually feel the MTS underneath, barely below the surface of the sand. 

I dont know what my next step should be. Should I drain the tank and try putting in more sand to get the cap a bit thicker? Should I try and do it with a full tank using the sock method or PVC pipe method?

currently I am leaning towards draining the tank since there are no fish and just a few plants.


----------



## Yiannis

Is mineralized soil substrate better than sera floredepot?


----------



## aczeller

Yiannis said:


> Is mineralized soil substrate better than sera floredepot?


define "better"... what are you wanting to plant, what is your budget, what kind of time do you have to build your tank, what part of the country do you live in, what are your water parameters, what are you able to purchase locally vs. what do you have to order online?

all in all, I chose MTS because I was under no major time constraints, i live in a city where I can get just about anything I need, and I wanted to go as cheap as possible. thankfully I did because by the time the tank was ready, I had decided to go in a completely separate direction and now I have about 60 lbs of top soil in my garage waiting for a new tank.


----------



## ibmikmaq

I am curious about something. I live in nova scotia and the river near me is the shubenacadie river. It's all mud, and the river itself dumps into the bay of fundy with the highest tides in eastern shores of the Atlantic. The tide effects the river height but I am so far in that the water remains fresh. Also anytime it rains the river height is effected. So basically the mud along the shores are constantly becoming saturating and drying out especially during warmer months. Now wouldn't this process of constant almost daily saturation and drying make the soil already mineralized?


----------



## Yiannis

aczeller said:


> define "better"... what are you wanting to plant, what is your budget, what kind of time do you have to build your tank, what part of the country do you live in, what are your water parameters, what are you able to purchase locally vs. what do you have to order online?
> 
> all in all, I chose MTS because I was under no major time constraints, i live in a city where I can get just about anything I need, and I wanted to go as cheap as possible. thankfully I did because by the time the tank was ready, I had decided to go in a completely separate direction and now I have about 60 lbs of top soil in my garage waiting for a new tank.


I live in a sunny country in Europe. I want to plant eleocharis parvula and hemianthous cuba. I have alot of time to build my tank. I will dose using EI, have pressurized CO2 and alot of light. Will it be better to use MTS or Sera Floredepot apart from the financial issue?


----------



## Mxx

Yiannis said:


> I live in a sunny country in Europe. I want to plant eleocharis parvula and hemianthous cuba. I have alot of time to build my tank. I will dose using EI, have pressurized CO2 and alot of light. Will it be better to use MTS or Sera Floredepot apart from the financial issue?


It seems with MTS you don't usually need to do EI dosing as almost all the necessary nutrients apart from a select few are all in the substrate in sufficient quantities. And without EI you don't necessarily need to do frequent water changes as a result. MTS is a little more challenging and messy to work with at first, but the results seem worthwhile. MTS seems to achieve lengthier tank stability though. But with soil there are more variables that can affect things, so it becomes more a question of convenience then anything else I believe. But I've never used Floredepot either. I think you'll find that people on this thread will presumably prefer the results they achieve with MTS to anything else, or they wouldn't be going through the initial trouble with it of course.


----------



## Mxx

Dolomite - is it best to use in powdered, granular, or gravel form? I've found pure dolomite mostly in powdered form, but found it in granular (rock salt size), 2mm, and 10 mm gravel size as well. 

Does powdered dolomite dissolve too quickly and therefore a granular form might be preferable? In trying to research it I keep seeing dolomite described as slightly soluble in water, so I'm not sure if that means it will only dissolve in the presence of and at the rate of acids being produced in the soil? 

I'm of course looking for a long term stable solution to soil buffering and magnesium release, but I'm not sure if sourcing the granular form which I'd need to order from abroad is worthwhile?


----------



## Mxx

BTW, are MTS and MTS a bad mix? 

As in, will Malaysian Trumpet Snails cause a mess in a tank with Mineralized Top Soil by mixing it up? Serious concern here, and pun not quite intended.


----------



## bpb

It is doubtful the snails will cause a problem. They move too slow to stir anything up. I have them in two tanks, one with gravel and mineralized topsoil, the other with play sand. I have had no problems in either.


----------



## Mxx

bpb said:


> It is doubtful the snails will cause a problem. They move too slow to stir anything up. I have them in two tanks, one with gravel and mineralized topsoil, the other with play sand. I have had no problems in either.


So although the Trumpet Snails are burrowing deep into the substrate, and mostly likely the soil layer, that doesn't result in it getting mixed up and any soil coming to the surface? I'm surprised but relieved if that is the case, as I can use them then.


----------



## bpb

Your results may vary. My mineralized topsoil was soaked and dried twice a week for 4 months in the 100 degree Texas heat direct sun. By the time i added it to the tank, it was like a powder. I capped with gravel. So even if they burrowed straight to the bottom and back, the particle size would keep it from mixing. If you capped miracle grow with sand, I would expect that to mix eventually even without snails.


----------



## Hoppy

Mxx said:


> Dolomite - is it best to use in powdered, granular, or gravel form? I've found pure dolomite mostly in powdered form, but found it in granular (rock salt size), 2mm, and 10 mm gravel size as well.
> 
> Does powdered dolomite dissolve too quickly and therefore a granular form might be preferable? In trying to research it I keep seeing dolomite described as slightly soluble in water, so I'm not sure if that means it will only dissolve in the presence of and at the rate of acids being produced in the soil?
> 
> I'm of course looking for a long term stable solution to soil buffering and magnesium release, but I'm not sure if sourcing the granular form which I'd need to order from abroad is worthwhile?


Dolomite dissolves very slowly, but obviously could dissolve faster if it were a powder. I would rather use a granular form myself, preferably something around 1 mm in size, not larger, so it doesn't work its way to the surface.


----------



## Mxx

Hoppy said:


> Dolomite dissolves very slowly, but obviously could dissolve faster if it were a powder. I would rather use a granular form myself, preferably something around 1 mm in size, not larger, so it doesn't work its way to the surface.


Bugger that! I guess that's certainly true, though I was hoping it wasn't for it looks as if it's going to cost me several times as much to get granular dolomite here...


----------



## greenfish4

Got a quick question and one observation, would it be okay to use a bag of humus and a bag of worm castings mixed into my MTS? I intend to screen them as well as wet and dry them several times. Also, the last time i was up to date on this thread me and a few other people were trying to shortcut the process by wetting the soil on the plastic it was laying on. What I found with this is that it will get the bacteria going (soil turns grey-white) but it does not do a good job of leaching out contaminants and organic material. I decided to put my mts back into the bin and wet it and was amazed out how much organic material was floating to the surface.


----------



## freemandnj973

Hey everyone im Don not new to planted tanks i did them for about 3 years before i switched to reef tanks in 2007 but im back after seeing some contest tanks using mts. my wife went to walmart saturday and picked up a bag of earthgro topsoil and since its been raining in jersey almost every other day the 40lb bag was about 90lbs. so i called up to complain about my wife receiving no help from any employee and asked them how long has the dirt been sitting there like that and the manager for that department said about 2 months cause its their least selling brand. so that got me thinking is it possible that the soil has been going through the mineralization process since its been damp then in direct sunlight for about 2 months?

I ask because when i opened my bag i filled a 10 gallon rubbermaid halfway with dirt and water, sifted about 3lbs of rocks out of 20lbs of dirt, flooded and drained twice i was left with whats in the pics. there was very little in the way of organic material and had absolutely no smell it has the exact same texture as the muck i would pick up from the bottom of streams and lakes in heavily planted areas when i used to fish. so is this what im looking for?


----------



## roadmaster

Have set up a soil tank 29 gal, low light tank with three tablespoons of Osmocote sprinkled on bottom followed by approx one inch of top soil dry,unwashed,followed by a layer 1/2 inch of Cat litter (unscented clay) followed by nylon mesh screen over top of cat litter and then capped all of this, with approx two inches of black Petco Sand.
Nylon mesh will prevent soil from being disturbed and help keep it from working it's way to top with planting or removal of plant's.(roots can still draw from nutrient's)
Clay cat litter will help absorb nutrient's for longer term plant use.
Osomocote will provide macronutrient's in addition to those maybe present in top soil.
Low light, 17 watts for eight hours a day to start, should help prevent large algae bloom.
Water is fairly hard, and should contain plenty of calcium,magnesium but should it be needed,,Seachems Equilibrium will be utilized.

Have grown plant's in pot's to be placed in aquariums holding large cichlids in this way, and time will tell how plant's do with this substrate.


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## aczeller

freemandnj973 said:


> Hey everyone im Don not new to planted tanks i did them for about 3 years before i switched to reef tanks in 2007 but im back after seeing some contest tanks using mts. my wife went to walmart saturday and picked up a bag of earthgro topsoil and since its been raining in jersey almost every other day the 40lb bag was about 90lbs. so i called up to complain about my wife receiving no help from any employee and asked them how long has the dirt been sitting there like that and the manager for that department said about 2 months cause its their least selling brand. so that got me thinking is it possible that the soil has been going through the mineralization process since its been damp then in direct sunlight for about 2 months?
> 
> I ask because when i opened my bag i filled a 10 gallon rubbermaid halfway with dirt and water, sifted about 3lbs of rocks out of 20lbs of dirt, flooded and drained twice i was left with whats in the pics. there was very little in the way of organic material and had absolutely no smell it has the exact same texture as the muck i would pick up from the bottom of streams and lakes in heavily planted areas when i used to fish. so is this what im looking for?


when you got it from the bag, was it dry? it is my understanding that the soil needs to completely dry out between "cycles" to get the most mineralization. I see where you are coming form though...


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## Mxx

roadmaster said:


> Nylon mesh will prevent soil from being disturbed and help keep it from working it's way to top with planting or removal of plant's.(roots can still draw from nutrient's)
> .


I really like the nylon mesh idea. A rigid mesh screen would help to know exactly how deep to plant things without causing a disturbance. It might be difficult if you need to uproot and move plants, but I suppose you're better off just cutting the roots off in such instances anyway and allowing them to decompose in place then naturally. What kind of mesh did you use and where did you obtain it?


----------



## roadmaster

Mxx said:


> I really like the nylon mesh idea. A rigid mesh screen would help to know exactly how deep to plant things without causing a disturbance. It might be difficult if you need to uproot and move plants, but I suppose you're better off just cutting the roots off in such instances anyway and allowing them to decompose in place then naturally. What kind of mesh did you use and where did you obtain it?


Yes ,mesh also prevent's loaches and cory's from digging so deep that soil escapes and helps keep sand from finding it's way to the bottom.
I found the nylon mesh at store called Hobby lobby. openings throughout the mesh are about the same size as window screen,maybe a tiny bit larger.
The material I chose is like fabric as opposed to rigid.
Could break down over time but we shall see.


----------



## freemandnj973

aczeller said:


> when you got it from the bag, was it dry? it is my understanding that the soil needs to completely dry out between "cycles" to get the most mineralization. I see where you are coming form though...


it was moist when i opened the bag the texture is gritty like damp playsand when you crumble it.


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## LobsterOfJustice

Hey guys,

I am setting up my first planted tank and have decided to do MTS. Looked around at the big box stores for suitabe topsoil yesterday and couldn't find anything I liked (they either had moss/compost mixed in, or were very woody). Today I went to a farm supply store and picked up several bags of "black kow" topsoil. The guy there said it had no additives. I was a little hesitant because this company primarily produces compost/manure, but I figured I'd give it a try. Here is a picture of the bag and what a handful looks like out of the bag. It is very dark and doesnt seem to have any pebbles or sticks in it.

I also got some muriate of potash there. However I'm a bit concerned this isnt quite what I need. Although the front says muriate of potash, after I bought it a took a closer look at the back... it says soluble potash, derived from muriate of potash.

At a different store I found a bag of ~1/2" diameter clay balls used for decoration/drainage purposes (similar to lava rock). Would these be okay to use, or do we need "raw" clay as baked clay will not leach iron properly?

Lastly... I'm going to be doing the wet/dry cycles in the tank. This is a 180g tank and I dont have enough rubbermaid containers or a tarp to do it any other way. Also it rains often and unpredictably here, so I'd probably come home one day to it all washed away anyway. I will sift it with a scoop (although I honestly doubt mine needs to be sifted) and mix the potash and dolomite into the MTS layer rather than putting a dusting on the bottom. Hopefully that will still work.


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## monkeyfish

When the soil is mineralized, it will be almost powder like. Mine also became like a light grey color at the end. I really over thought the whole "which soil should I use" I think as long as it's not all organic or contaminated it's good to go. I went and dug it up from the woods next to my house. I have a bunch of dolomite, powdered clay, and potash if anyone needs it. 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## LobsterOfJustice

monkeyfish said:


> When the soil is mineralized, it will be almost powder like. Mine also became like a light grey color at the end. I really over thought the whole "which soil should I use" I think as long as it's not all organic or contaminated it's good to go. I went and dug it up from the woods next to my house. I have a bunch of dolomite, powdered clay, and potash if anyone needs it.
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk



This is what's got me a bit confused. I cant get an idea of whether "organics" are good or not. A soil without organics is sand. Obviously you want some organics, thats the point of putting a layer of dirt in your tank, right? I can't just go outside and dig up some dirt, it's all sand around where I am.


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## monkeyfish

Correct. This is what I did, over thunk it. It's understandable, who wants to have to remove and replace substrate. If you are still unsure, do a small batch as a test run. I didn't see the pics before, It looks fine to me, I'd go for it. I would still sift it though because you never know what might end up in those bags - glass, plastic, etc.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## Poseidon Aegaeus

I am going to be doing this process for substrate and went to the local Home Depot to get the Natures Best top soil and found out they did not have it. All they had was Earthgrow, a compost top soil with peat moss, organic and non-organic materials and such in it which to me is not top soil but decomposed compost. 

Is there anyone who has a suggestion on where to get Natures Pride now that Home Depot does not seem to carry it? Or is there a better brand now? I notice the Natures Best suggestion is about 3 years old.


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## Gold Finger

What a great thread. Many thanks to all involved. I read the whole thing and loved it. I have just set up my first soil tank and look forward to sharing what i will experience. 

Like I said, I love this thread, but I don't understand why there is not one mention of the huge benefit aquatic plants derive from having their roots in an anaerobic substrate. There are a number of inaccurate and uncorrected references to keeping the stuff from becoming anaerobic, but nothing about the fact that plants metabolize N at twice the rate when their roots are in an anaerobic substrate. To me this is what is most interesting and exciting about this technique, and is what separates it from all the rest.


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## Gold Finger

LobsterOfJustice said:


> This is what's got me a bit confused. I cant get an idea of whether "organics" are good or not. A soil without organics is sand. Obviously you want some organics, thats the point of putting a layer of dirt in your tank, right? I can't just go outside and dig up some dirt, it's all sand around where I am.


organics are leaves and stuff. Plant tissues. Until they are fully decomposed into minerals. Then you have mineralized soil. Not sand. Sand is rocks. What we want is ideally around 10% organic. Mostly finished decaying and not too rich. Top soil or sub soil.


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## Mxx

Why only 10% organics? What's the problem if it is more? (Assuming the soil has been properly mineralized or boiled already, in order to avoid ammonia spikes).


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## Hoppy

Mxx said:


> Why only 10% organics? What's the problem if it is more? (Assuming the soil has been properly mineralized or boiled already, in order to avoid ammonia spikes).


If it is mineralized, it isn't organic. Mineralizing means converting the organic nitrogen compounds in the soil to inorganic nitrogen compounds - nitrates.


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## Mxx

Hoppy said:


> If it is mineralized, it isn't organic. Mineralizing means converting the organic nitrogen compounds in the soil to inorganic nitrogen compounds - nitrates.


Pardon my confusion regarding this, but if that is the case then does warming up my lentil soup lunch today by bringing it to a boil for a few minutes also turn it into inorganic compounds?... Or do we have different definitions of the term organic we're using here? 

Equally, I'd boiled some soil to 'mineralize' it, but I suspect that my soup would still undergo quite a bit of decomposition if I'd have left it to. I suppose though that boiling soil accomplishes a slightly different processing of it then the wet-and-wait method. So I suspect boiled soil which contained organics such as worm castings and peat would continue to decompose within the substrate, thereby continuing to slowly supply nutrients as well as CO2 to the plants for a lengthy period of time.


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## Gold Finger

Soil is different than your lentils in that it is already mostly decayed. Boiling your soup breaks the lentils down into more mineral (decayed) state, but not completely, your stomach acids will do much more breakdown. Boiling or using bacteria to break down the soup (or soil) is a way of quickly decomposing the organic portion. You want to rot this stuff out before you put it in your tank. It won't be 100% mineral but that's ok. You just don't want it too highly organic or you may as well throw a dead carp in your tank (or your lentil soup). Why 10% organic? I don't know. That's the percentage aquatic plants like. Also, any more than that and you will get ammonia spikes. How do you know what percentage you've reached? To start with, most top soil and sub soil is already around there. If it comes from a beautiful forest and it's black and rich and smells amazing it's probably much higher. Your best test is that it will have almost no odor when it's done. And yes, the remaining organics will break down over time and act as a slow release nutrient. As for the differences between the boil and the wet-and-wait method, they are lost on me. perhaps Hoppy can fill you in. I learned this stuff from reading his posts, and have some questions of my own.


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## Gold Finger

Will a mud tank eat up as much nitrogen from the fish as a sterile tank does? I set up a soil/sand/oyster shell/fluorite tank and am trying to achieve a no W/C state. In the sterile tank the plants eat only fish N, but in the mud, well they have the mud for N. So Will they eat less fish N, or will they grow faster and eat as much or more than in the plain gravel tank? (I have 4x4' T12's over a 70Gal. and no CO2). Also would some plants work better than others? I understand that growth rate is key, and am planning on using vals since I'm a plant noob and my water is hard and cold.


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## Gold Finger

Am I correct in thinking that MTS, Walstad, and NPT tanks are staying balanced longer without water changes than those with more mainstream substrates? And is it because they can consume excess nitrate better?


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## Erik N

monkeyfish said:


> When the soil is mineralized, it will be almost powder like. Mine also became like a light grey color at the end. I really over thought the whole "which soil should I use" I think as long as it's not all organic or contaminated it's good to go. I went and dug it up from the woods next to my house. I have a bunch of dolomite, powdered clay, and potash if anyone needs it.
> 
> Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


PM sent. I could use enough for a 72 bowfront.


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## Erik N

^^^ Thanks monkeyfish! ^^^

I just started mineralizing my topsoil. The stuff I got from HD here in San Antonio (called "Friendly Texas Topsoil") had almost no organic matter at all. It is just a sandy-silty material. It's a nice color brown, too, so it should match the color of my gravel well.

This will eventually go in a 72 Bowfront angelfish aquarium (I pick up the actual tank tomorrow). Once I get a few pics together of my progress, I might start a thread about it. I've got some cool driftwood to put in, it should be a great tank!


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## Gold Finger

That is probably not soil, strictly speaking. I don't know what it is, and I guess they don't say on the bag. It might work great, or it might be just red sand. I know Texas has strange dirt. Most "soil" mixes are no good because they have too much organics, but none might mean a lack of the correct minerals (the ones that came from decayed plant matter).


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## Gold Finger

It even says on the bag that it won't even grow grass unless you mix in compost... I think it's Texas sand.


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## Gold Finger

Stick it in water for a day or two then check the PH and ammonia. If there's no ammonia at all, there's no N, so its sand. It may also be high in clay and therefore CEC, so it could be good used with osmocote or tabs.


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## Erik N

Well, I rinsed it and let it dry. It isn't just sand, because it got pretty hard. The pieces "snap" apart.

I'll do another few moistening/drying cycles and report back.

Now, another question: Ho does one go about having a deep layer of substrate in a MTS tank? I want to aquascape with a regular depth in front, but sloping back to maybe 4-5" against the rear glass. I am concerned about creating a potentially dangerous anaerobic environment.


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## goyasdog

*annoying cats*

If this has been covered already please just tell me where;


I'm letting my soil dry out, all good. The problem is i have two cats that seem to find my drying soil an attractive place in which to do their business. If i see them digging in i chase them off, but obviously i cant watch it 24/7.
if they did their business in it can i just rinse it off as per the original process or is it ruined?
Also if i did the process can the soil become 'unmineralised' if i store it somewhere for a while before using it?


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## monkeyfish

Cat pee is apparently fine, see here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=150741 
And to answer your second question...no. Once the organics in the soil have broken down (mineralized) it will not revert.


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## oyeabog

*light*

What would be the best light setup so i don't overdrive the soil,also the best type of cap for soil. brands if you know them, Thanks. sorry 75 gallon


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## TheGiantDwarfShrimp

I am sorry if this has been mention but I read through this thread and I am still unsure if I am doing this correctly. I am doing 2 separate buckets of dirt from the woods behind my house and the 1st one is on its 4th dry. After letting it soak in the bucket for 5 days it smelled like manure and stung my nostrils when I poured it out to dry. Then when it is dry I can barely smell an "earthy" scent. It is turning light grey when it dries and stays in hard clumps that can be shattered. I am now in a hurry to finish it because I have plants that need to be planted soon. Also I heard that you are not supposed to plant until 1 month after setting up the tank, is this true?


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## nilocg

Wet the dirt, if it still smells bad you need to go through another cycle. If it doesnt smell like anything then you should be fine. You can put the plants in day 1. Let me know if you have any other questions. Also, let me know if you need any of the supplies.


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## flyfshrmn98

I'm on my 4th time of wet and dry cycle and after it dries it just gets very hard and cracks and breaks into pieces the size of small plates. Its very hard to break into a dust or sandy consistency. Is this normal? It doesn't smell when wet or dry so is it pretty much ready to go?


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## SCMurphy

flyfshrmn98 said:


> I'm on my 4th time of wet and dry cycle and after it dries it just gets very hard and cracks and breaks into pieces the size of small plates. Its very hard to break into a dust or sandy consistency. Is this normal? It doesn't smell when wet or dry so is it pretty much ready to go?


It sounds like you are ready to go.


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## fishyface

Hey all, I've been away for years now. I did this method with my tank about 3.5 years ago and I'd say it lasted a good 2.5 years. The tank just seems like it's used up all the available nutrients but I'm ready to give this same method another go. 

Is there anything much new since Aaron's original guide came out? I've gotten soil which I'm just starting to mineralize, I also have clay, potash and dolomite left over from last time.

I was hoping that I would have gotten a longer life-span from this but it sure worked great for the first few years...after that, it's been just acceptable. Plants exist now, definitely not flourish though.

ps wondering about anyone else's long term sustainability or experiences...


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## BlueMovieBaz

*The right topsoil*

Hi everbody i stumbled across this thread and forum as im looking to start my first planted aquarium. i have been keeping fish now for 5 years and have decided to take on the task of planting my tank
I have just bought some topsoil and wondering if its the right one its 
http://www.cwtls.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=66

its rich clay loam soil

Thanks


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## SCMurphy

BlueMovieBaz said:


> Hi everbody i stumbled across this thread and forum as im looking to start my first planted aquarium. i have been keeping fish now for 5 years and have decided to take on the task of planting my tank
> I have just bought some topsoil and wondering if its the right one its
> http://www.cwtls.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=66
> 
> its rich clay loam soil
> 
> Thanks


It looks like something that should work just fine. Post back and let people know how it does for you. There may be others that can benefit from your experience.


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## SCMurphy

fishyface said:


> Hey all, I've been away for years now. I did this method with my tank about 3.5 years ago and I'd say it lasted a good 2.5 years. The tank just seems like it's used up all the available nutrients but I'm ready to give this same method another go.
> 
> Is there anything much new since Aaron's original guide came out? I've gotten soil which I'm just starting to mineralize, I also have clay, potash and dolomite left over from last time.
> 
> I was hoping that I would have gotten a longer life-span from this but it sure worked great for the first few years...after that, it's been just acceptable. Plants exist now, definitely not flourish though.
> 
> ps wondering about anyone else's long term sustainability or experiences...


I've had tanks last 10 years before I sold them off with the substrate intact and those tanks have gone another 7-8 years since then. I haven't changed anything to what I'm doing but there may be someone else who has a different approach that can help you out.


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## fishyface

SCMurphy said:


> I've had tanks last 10 years before I sold them off with the substrate intact and those tanks have gone another 7-8 years since then. I haven't changed anything to what I'm doing but there may be someone else who has a different approach that can help you out.


Thanks for the response, I'm going to do a little experiment with some ferts and see if I can't bring this tank back to her former glory.  I always like a challenge.


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## AaronT

fishyface said:


> Thanks for the response, I'm going to do a little experiment with some ferts and see if I can't bring this tank back to her former glory.  I always like a challenge.


It doesn't hurt. Potassium definitely runs out, well before 2.5 years at that. I'm currently dosing my MTS tank with great results.


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## mpekas

Hello, I've been having a bit of trouble finding pottery clay close to where i'm living to complete my MTS mix but I 'found' some pure cosmetic grade clays similar to the following - could i use those instead?

http://www.naturalrussia.com/natural/clays/red_illite.html
http://www.naturalrussia.com/natural/clays/green_illite.html


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## flight50

Aaron I emailed you the other day but I don't think it went thru so I will just post it here. Posting here is better anyways so I can get input from others as well. My future build will be a heavily planted 180g so my substrate will get expensive. So to save some money and maintenance time I am considering this method. Problem is I plan to have an elevated substrate and a couple of slopes/hills. Not sure if I can actually use this method due to my substrate depth intent.

My layout will be something like this on a 72x24 footprint: (going from front glass to back)
1)1.5-2" deep substrate for the first 4" going back
2)4-5" deep substrate for the next 12" going back
3)6-9" deep substrate in each corner (making a plateau) for the last 10" on the back wall and the side going to the backwall.

If it is possible how can I layer this setup. Is there something I can use to take up space first without add a ton of weight like rocks. Maybe large pieces flat driftwood perhaps. Has anyone tried going outside the recipe depth of MTS of 1.5-2" and 2" capping. What is the result of making the MTS too thick. What would be the result of making the cap too thick. Any advice to pull this off would be appreciated. Most tanks I see using this method are basically low flat leveled aquacapes so I am not sure if my plans can succeed.


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## Guns286

flight50 said:


> Aaron I emailed you the other day but I don't think it went thru so I will just post it here. Posting here is better anyways so I can get input from others as well. My future build will be a heavily planted 180g so my substrate will get expensive. So to save some money and maintenance time I am considering this method. Problem is I plan to have an elevated substrate and a couple of slopes/hills. Not sure if I can actually use this method due to my substrate depth intent.
> 
> My layout will be something like this on a 72x24 footprint: (going from front glass to back)
> 1)1.5-2" deep substrate for the first 4" going back
> 2)4-5" deep substrate for the next 12" going back
> 3)6-9" deep substrate in each corner (making a plateau) for the last 10" on the back wall and the side going to the backwall.
> 
> If it is possible how can I layer this setup. Is there something I can use to take up space first without add a ton of weight like rocks. Maybe large pieces flat driftwood perhaps. Has anyone tried going outside the recipe depth of MTS of 1.5-2" and 2" capping. What is the result of making the MTS too thick. What would be the result of making the cap too thick. Any advice to pull this off would be appreciated. Most tanks I see using this method are basically low flat leveled aquacapes so I am not sure if my plans can succeed.


I'm not an expert, by any means, but a while back I had a few questions about MTS and a member here told me something that stuck with me. He said "It's dirt, do whatever you want with it." The truth is, no mater what process we put it thru. No matter how many times we soak, strain and dry it, It's still just dirt. I would think that u can pile it up, make a hill with it, or do whatever you want with it and it should be fine.


----------



## flight50

I thought I remember seeing something bout circulation issues once it gets too thick. Perhaps causing anaerobic bacteria due to substrate compacting at greater depths. I was thinking the recipe calls for a particular thickness for a reason. I read thru all the post on Aaron origin site for an answer but I haven't gone thru this whole thread on this site.


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## nalu86

put eggcrates under it and mix the soil with gravel, thats how i did it.
It flattens out a little bit after a while, but I just dropped some more sand in that corner.


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## AaronT

Guns286 said:


> I'm not an expert, by any means, but a while back I had a few questions about MTS and a member here told me something that stuck with me. He said "It's dirt, do whatever you want with it." The truth is, no mater what process we put it thru. No matter how many times we soak, strain and dry it, It's still just dirt. I would think that u can pile it up, make a hill with it, or do whatever you want with it and it should be fine.


Well, the idea behind not piling it up too high is to avoid anaerobic conditions in the soil. Because it is such a fine particulate compaction is a risk. 

Personally, to build hills and large slopes I would use something like Aquasoil or another soil based substrate.


----------



## flight50

AaronT said:


> Well, the idea behind not piling it up too high is to avoid anaerobic conditions in the soil. Because it is such a fine particulate compaction is a risk.
> 
> Personally, to build hills and large slopes I would use something like Aquasoil or another soil based substrate.


I was afraid you'd say that,lol. I remember seeing your write up at a particular depth for a reason. Didn't know if someone pushed the limits as of yet. The problems with aquasoil its availability at a reasonable price and that it will deplete eventually. I don't like redoing aquacapes (besides moving a few plants) once its setup so I like to leave the substrate in place. If I went with aquasoil I guess I can always start dosing at that point. Not sure of its CEC to absorb from the water column though. I have seen a few threads using Miracle Grow Organic Choice for soil substrate. I assume this soil would be in the same boat as MTS with too thick of a substrate?


----------



## AaronT

flight50 said:


> I was afraid you'd say that,lol. I remember seeing your write up at a particular depth for a reason. Didn't know if someone pushed the limits as of yet. The problems with aquasoil its availability at a reasonable price and that it will deplete eventually. I don't like redoing aquacapes (besides moving a few plants) once its setup so I like to leave the substrate in place. If I went with aquasoil I guess I can always start dosing at that point. Not sure of its CEC to absorb from the water column though. I have seen a few threads using Miracle Grow Organic Choice for soil substrate. I assume this soil would be in the same boat as MTS with too thick of a substrate?


Any fine grain substrate is not a good idea to stack it high for the same reason. It's not to say you definitely will have problems, but the chances will be much greater.


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## flight50

Sorry to be a pain Aaron but how do you fair with doing as Nalu86 has done and mixing the MTS with gravel at a thicker substrate. Or even better what about mixing it with a high CEC such as a dark matching color Flourite or Eco and adding a 1/2"-1" cap to contain the mixture. I just sketched up a layout I'd like to try and for the most part the substrate is at 1"-4". I think I can prop up the back corner areas of 6"-9" using eggcrates and 1/8" plexi that rest on the tank bottom as a barrier with rocks silicone to conceal the understructure.

I just don't like the cost of AS for a 180g. That would take half my paycheck,lol.


----------



## AaronT

flight50 said:


> Sorry to be a pain Aaron but how do you fair with doing as Nalu86 has done and mixing the MTS with gravel at a thicker substrate. Or even better what about mixing it with a high CEC such as a dark matching color Flourite or Eco and adding a 1/2"-1" cap to contain the mixture. I just sketched up a layout I'd like to try and for the most part the substrate is at 1"-4". I think I can prop up the back corner areas of 6"-9" using eggcrates and 1/8" plexi that rest on the tank bottom as a barrier with rocks silicone to conceal the understructure.
> 
> I just don't like the cost of AS for a 180g. That would take half my paycheck,lol.



It will work for a time. Eventually finer particles settle to the bottom. Whenever you layer substrates the smallest grains end up on the bottom and the largest ones on top.


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## In.a.Box

where do you guys buy 
• Dolomite
• Muriate of potash


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## flight50

In.a.Box said:


> where do you guys buy
> • Dolomite
> • Muriate of potash


I have read that most get it locally. Especially if your in a big city. The clay from an art store that sells pottery stuff and dolomite from a plant nursery. I remember seeing that you can skip the dolomite if you already have pretty high alkaline water. You might want to check into though.

Aaron thanks for your input on the subject. I guess I will have to just bite the bullet and save for the Aquasoil. I really want those slopes. But on my smaller project tanks that I will be constructing first, I will definitely be trying out MTS. I hope your bagging this stuff up and selling it,lol.


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## In.a.Box

here my list of things.

soil from my yard
red clay
cuttle bones use in place of calcium carbonate
potassium chloride "table salt" 100% KCI use in place of Muriate of potash

less water change, no need for IE dosing or any kind of Fert.
sound about right.


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## AaronT

In.a.Box said:


> where do you guys buy
> • Dolomite
> • Muriate of potash


Southern States by me has the muriate of potash. Any KCL will work. Just don't use K2SO4 as introducing sulfates into the substrate is not a good idea.

The dolomite used to be at my local LFS in the reef section, Estes Ultra Reef Dolomite. This is the preferred stuff to use as the large granules take longer to dissolve. Of course, you don't need 25 pounds unless you are converting your swimming pool to a planted tank system so consider a group buy with some friends or sell off the rest in the SNS.
http://www.pawtasticpet.com/proddetail.asp?prod=EST50407#.T8YUXrCqCuI 

You can also get it here: http://aquariumfertilizer.com/index...rnEdit=2&Returnitemname=&ReturnShowItemStart=

DO NOT USE dolomitic lime (limestone with dolomite) from the garden center. There are a lot of people posting all over the internet that I'm an idiot for suggesting people use dolomite underneath their MTS. This is the product they are referring to and I absolutely 100% agree with them. Unfortunately, this is most often also labeled as dolomite as well, hence the confusion. You want PURE (or close to it) dolomite (calcium magnesium carbonate).


----------



## SCMurphy

flight50 said:


> I have read that most get it locally. Especially if your in a big city. The clay from an art store that sells pottery stuff and dolomite from a plant nursery. I remember seeing that you can skip the dolomite if you already have pretty high alkaline water. You might want to check into though.
> 
> Aaron thanks for your input on the subject. I guess I will have to just bite the bullet and save for the Aquasoil. I really want those slopes. But on my smaller project tanks that I will be constructing first, I will definitely be trying out MTS. I hope your bagging this stuff up and selling it,lol.


If you want to build large slopes and use MTS it would be better to use something cheap like 'chick grit" which is usually pulverized granite here. (Make sure it is not pulverized limestone or something related if you look for it in your area.) Use the chick grit, some clay, and sections of eggcrate as support structure to build the slopes, then cover the slopes with weed fabric and then use the MTS on top of the fabric, covering the MTS with a layer of cap. I use weed fabric to keep soil in my pots in the emersed growth set up and when I built the marsh section of my outdoor "pond". The fabric seems to last forever outside and it does a great job of holding the soil where I want it.


----------



## nosebleed

Today i went to Lowes and Home depot but wasn't able to locate any top soil mention. However I did came across some top soil at home depot but wasn't sure it was the correct one. Would this do?

Also does anyone know any stores in San Diego that would sale potting clay because I can't seem to find one. There is an art store in downtown SD that might have clay which is called 
Amaco No. 67 Sedona Red Clay. It comes in 19lbs and nothing smaller. I'm sure the shipping will be ridiculous if they didn't have it in the store. Well at lease thats what the website says. Would michaels or Aaron Brothers have clay. I went on there website but didnt see any. 

If I have to purchase that clay would that clay be okay?


----------



## In.a.Box

Earth gro has peat moss in it.
What you want is just dirt,rock mix.


----------



## AaronT

nosebleed said:


> Today i went to Lowes and Home depot but wasn't able to locate any top soil mention. However I did came across some top soil at home depot but wasn't sure it was the correct one. Would this do?
> 
> Also does anyone know any stores in San Diego that would sale potting clay because I can't seem to find one. There is an art store in downtown SD that might have clay which is called
> Amaco No. 67 Sedona Red Clay. It comes in 19lbs and nothing smaller. I'm sure the shipping will be ridiculous if they didn't have it in the store. Well at lease thats what the website says. Would michaels or Aaron Brothers have clay. I went on there website but didnt see any.
> 
> If I have to purchase that clay would that clay be okay?


http://www.baileypottery.com/clay/clays-chemicals.htm
You want the Cedar Heights Redart clay. I ordered 10 lbs and shipping was about $12.00 so about $16.00 shipped for 10 lbs.

Try to find topsoil that is just dirt. I can't believe HD didn't have any. They have bag after bag of it here for $0.98 / bag. Try Ace Hardware or another local place?


----------



## nosebleed

AaronT said:


> http://www.baileypottery.com/clay/clays-chemicals.htm
> You want the Cedar Heights Redart clay. I ordered 10 lbs and shipping was about $12.00 so about $16.00 shipped for 10 lbs.
> 
> Try to find topsoil that is just dirt. I can't believe HD didn't have any. They have bag after bag of it here for $0.98 / bag. Try Ace Hardware or another local place?


I found a topsoil website that sales by a cubic feet. I thought it was interesting to share. http://www.soildirect.com

Seriously is it that hard to buy topsoil here I can't find it in ace hardware as well. I might just jump onto craiglists and look for someone who is giving away free topsoil.

Awesome, thanks for the clay link.


----------



## menoseloso

the clay needs to be mexican pottery clay nothing else


----------



## menoseloso

Amaco mexican pottery clay


----------



## AaronT

menoseloso said:


> the clay needs to be mexican pottery clay nothing else


The link I provided is also a good clay to use as is any other high iron content natural clay. I did write the article after all. :icon_cool


----------



## nosebleed

At evergreennursery.com their topsoil ingredient is 60% Sandy Loam
40% Planting Mulch. Would this work? I'm guessing not.

So difficult just to go to a store and buy topsoil.


----------



## In.a.Box

Top soil is hard to find in store now and days.
Most company add peat moss and other stuff to their top soil now.

Best place to find the right stuff is to craigslist search top soil.
Or dig your own top soil from your yard.


----------



## AaronT

In.a.Box said:


> Top soil is hard to find in store now and days.
> Most company add peat moss and other stuff to their top soil now.
> 
> Best place to find the right stuff is to craigslist search top soil.
> Or dig your own top soil from your yard.


Home Depot is still the best place to find it. Southern States might be another good place to look. 

Digging in your own yard can be tricky. MD soil is orange it's so full of clay.


----------



## 150EH

AaronT said:


> The link I provided is also a good clay to use as is any other high iron content natural clay. I did write the article after all. :icon_cool



LOL :bounce::bounce::bounce: on the east coast we only use African Brown Clay!


----------



## In.a.Box

Walmart use to carry a top soil that was 60 cent per bag.

Aaront you still use the same bag of soil from HD?


----------



## AaronT

In.a.Box said:


> Walmart use to carry a top soil that was 60 cent per bag.
> 
> Aaront you still use the same bag of soil from HD?


Yeah, they still carry the red and white bag pictured in the article. 

I haven't bought any in a long while because I stocked up and have also trimmed down my collection of tanks as I've accumulated children.


----------



## nosebleed

HD or walmart in the south western states don't have the same stuff you guys have and it sucks. 

I found some topsoil in the back yard that I think would work. It is dry, hard and fall apart to the touch.

Would this do?

Do I still need to mineralize it?


----------



## AaronT

nosebleed said:


> HD or walmart in the south western states don't have the same stuff you guys have and it sucks.
> 
> I found some topsoil in the back yard that I think would work. It is dry, hard and fall apart to the touch.
> 
> Would this do?
> 
> Do I still need to mineralize it?


That looks like good stuff. Yes, it still needs to be mineralized.


----------



## menoseloso

yea i see you and i were thinking alike. i was just emphasizing the use of Natural clay.. because some people think that red clay that also comes in blues and oranges is that type.. but those are synthetic.


----------



## In.a.Box

anyone know why the soil smell?
i get this bad smell everytime i clear/clean out a Miracle-Gro Organic Choice tank.
there will also be black stain on the glass as well, is it because gas are stuck in?


----------



## AaronT

In.a.Box said:


> anyone know why the soil smell?
> i get this bad smell everytime i clear/clean out a Miracle-Gro Organic Choice tank.
> there will also be black stain on the glass as well, is it because gas are stuck in?


Miracle Gro Organic Choice is not topsoil, it's potting soil and it's full of organics like peat and also contains added fertilizers. It's the decomposing organics you are smelling.


----------



## nicks7.1985

HI ..i have been reading pages and pages of this thread but still have a question. firstly ..thank you to Sean and Aaron for helping getting the soil thing started ...i started my very first rinse today to try it out. 

If i cant find dolomite or potash ...can i dose(in very small amounts) for potassium and leave out the dolomite? ..im setting up a low tech..no co2, little light

THANKS!


----------



## nicks7.1985

...ugh, cant find dolomite or potash anywhere...whould bone meal work as a sub.?


----------



## In.a.Box

nicks7.1985 said:


> ...ugh, cant find dolomite or potash anywhere...whould bone meal work as a sub.?


nilocg sell them for $3 a lb with $5-6 shipping.
dolomite sell around $3 anywhere online.
potash come in a bag of 4-5 lb which run you $10-15
you dont need that much anyways a lb of potash will give enough for maybe 5+ 75G. 

thats where i got my from.


----------



## nicks7.1985

Thanks in.a.box ...i just pm'ed him ...hopefully I can get some too. I drove around everywhere round here today asking for it ...ppl were looking at me like I was asking for something crazy


----------



## In.a.Box

I went to HD today and couldn't find the soil in article. Guess the Lowes and HD here doesnt carry it. I guess its a east coast thing. haha 

thanks to the 1 1/2 week of rain im only on my 3rd dry. good thing the 2nd dry dry faster. 



nicks7.1985 said:


> Thanks in.a.box ...i just pm'ed him ...hopefully I can get some too. I drove around everywhere round here today asking for it ...ppl were looking at me like I was asking for something crazy


its best to just pay the $5 for shipping than driving around losing gas. gas cost isn't a joke. And NP glad to help


----------



## nosebleed

In.a.Box said:


> I went to HD today and couldn't find the soil in article. Guess the Lowes and HD here doesnt carry it. I guess its a east coast thing. haha
> 
> thanks to the 1 1/2 week of rain im only on my 3rd dry. good thing the 2nd dry dry faster.
> 
> 
> 
> its best to just pay the $5 for shipping than driving around losing gas. gas cost isn't a joke. And NP glad to help


Yea i couldn't find the topsoil at HD either. It is more for the southern part of the country in the states. I just decide to use the top soil in the yard.


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

You can usually go to a nursery or landscaping center and buy the topsoil in 5gal buckets for a few bucks. Pure black dirt or pulverized black dirt. No potting soil. It has fertilizers mixed in already


----------



## devon6209

What should I cap it with?
Play sand(already own)
Fluorite sand black
Eco-complete black
Something else

I'll post a pic of my plane dirt later


----------



## devon6209

Here is my dirt so far.


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## AaronT

devon6209 said:


> Here is my dirt so far.
> View attachment 49709
> View attachment 49710


That looks like too much clay. Is that soil from your yard?


----------



## devon6209

AaronT said:


> That looks like too much clay. Is that soil from your yard?


No, it's soil I bought from a contractor store, they have huge piles of different kinds sitting around and he said to shovel as much as I wanted. I think I'm going to get a different kind of soil today, maybe a bagged kind


----------



## TheCryptKeeper

AaronT said:


> That looks like too much clay. Is that soil from your yard?


I agree. Too much of an orange color. Should be a lighter gray


----------



## nicks7.1985

---devon 

my fiance and i had a good chuckle at the pics, as my back yard is also partially covered in heavy duty trash bags with mud spread out on them

that aside ..does anyone have a specific recommendation as to what clay to use ..there are so many different ones. i went to michaels and joannes but didnt buy any. im thinking my best bet is a ceramics or pottery supply store?


----------



## rocksmom

Quick question. My MTS is getting bugs (mostly some type of larva and ants) from laying outside to dry. What do I do about that? Just let them drown when I add it to the tank? The larva are too small to pick out, they're not like some giant grub or anything.


----------



## SCMurphy

rocksmom said:


> Quick question. My MTS is getting bugs (mostly some type of larva and ants) from laying outside to dry. What do I do about that? Just let them drown when I add it to the tank? The larva are too small to pick out, they're not like some giant grub or anything.


Look at it as free fertilizer caps, just don't store the soil inside after it is mineralized unless it will be submerged.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


----------



## AaronT

nicks7.1985 said:


> ---devon
> 
> my fiance and i had a good chuckle at the pics, as my back yard is also partially covered in heavy duty trash bags with mud spread out on them
> 
> that aside ..does anyone have a specific recommendation as to what clay to use ..there are so many different ones. i went to michaels and joannes but didnt buy any. im thinking my best bet is a ceramics or pottery supply store?


http://www.clayworkssupplies.com/index.cgi 

It's in Baltimore, shouldn't be too far from you. Ask for Red Art clay powder.


----------



## rocksmom

SCMurphy said:


> Look at it as free fertilizer caps, just don't store the soil inside after it is mineralized unless it will be submerged.
> 
> Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


Oh, gag. That's what I thought. Looks like I'm going to be getting my husband to sift it for me!

Ok, I lied. I have another question. In the sticky the soil looks gray, but mine looks really dark, almost black. Could that difference be from the original soil used? Or does that mean mine needs another cycle (or two)? It's drying for the fourth time right now.


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## SCMurphy

If you get it wet and it doesn't smell like rotting vegetation then it is ready. The color comes from a host of reasons including the original mineral material to the clay fraction source and make up.

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk 2


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## nebu7777

I've spent about 1-2 weeks gathering the ingredients. I couldn't find Dolomite despite being in Orange County, CA where you'd think it's easy to find. I decided to try crushed coral instead. I think our water is hard. I could try to order some but it would be yet another week delay. 

We cannot find that top soil mentioned. Lowes doesn't have it. The Home Depot (about 6 around here) all have that Earthgrow Topsoil. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Earthgro-Topsoil/16904044 
Craigslist doesn't have any topsoil either. So no Walmart, Lowes, Home Depot, Ace (also uses that earthgrow crap). 

Right now we're using some crappy Organic dirt thing which might hose the whole thing? Should we even bother or just look forever for top soil?

"Yeah you can add a little Epsom salt to make up for the Mg missing in the crushed coral. Don't worry about the grain size as long as it is normal size for an aquarium gravel or smaller. "
That's what I'm planning on doing.


----------



## Aquinoobie16

Wow over 60 pages.... but im mineralizing some organic potting soil atm it works to get all the excesswod and floating particles out.. just skim them off the top and you got good soil at the bottom works well to get that pesky perlitwle out too since the kind I had has small particles of it in there


----------



## MichaelMcG

what do you guys think would be a better cap to use with a dwarf hair grass carpet? blasting sand or a gravel? i would like to have it black.. if gravel what kind of gravel? Iv been looking for some quartz but no luck so far.


----------



## Highlander

Hey Aaron and Sean, whereabouts in MD are you guys? I work for AA County but live in Charles County. Anyways, I am moving from a 55g non planted to a 120g-150g (between 60x18 to 60x24 footprint-haven't bought it yet) planted. How many bags of top soil do you think i would need? I have two already from the HD in Annapolis (the same red and white bag). Also I picked up Amaco mex pot clay. Should I use that or pick up the powder from B'more? I plan on going to Southern States in La Plata to find the potash. One last thing, do you know if HOT carries the dolomite?
Thanks,
Aaron C


----------



## Judyok

A simple method to prevent the fines from uprooting and getting all over:
Mix the soil bottom layer with 3:? sand/soil mix. Does anyone know what the remaining portion is for this ratio given earlier in this thread? Is it 3 to 1?


----------



## karawr

I am also wondering how many bags of top soil I should buy. I've got a 120g and the footprint is 60 x 18. Right now I have 4 but I think that's just a touch too much. 3?

I'd like to be pretty exact with the clay so I don't over/under do it. As per Aaron's post it's 1/4lb clay per sq ft. So my tank is 7.5 sq ft? So roughly 2lbs of clay (1.8)? Sorry math isn't my strong suit  wanna make sure I have this right.


----------



## nebu7777

*Done with Soil*

OK after 5 weeks, I created 8 gallons of minerlized top soil. It doesn't smell, and looks grayish. It was a lot of fun making it. The first 2-3 weeks were wasted using crappy soil. Then we found better soil and had to start all over.

I used a $5 roll of screen door/window replacement over the chicken wire. Worked great. 

Here is my gallery of photos of how I did it. https://picasaweb.google.com/107118563475469124903/PlantedTank?authuser=0&feat=directlink

I bought some dolomite from http://aquariumfertilizer.com
but they failed to tell you, it's just powder. You need the crystal like form instead. You coulda just bought that at a health food store or something. What a rip. Maybe some of you could tell me otherwise? I also have some crushed coral. I was thinking throw both of them in. 

I have a 40 gallon tank.


----------



## In.a.Box

Do a hot mud bath its good for the skins. Hehe


----------



## TheBigSleep

Been reading this thread with great interest & I'm planning on converting my Evolve 8 into a mud tank using this method/recipe. I'm lucky enough to have a family lakehouse up in NH, and have fond memories of mining clay from the lake bed as a kid - would it be possible to use this clay in the recipe? I really don't know anything about the clay's composition except that it's greenish, very dense with very fine granules, and is found under ~1inch of sand on the bottom of Lake Spofford in southern New Hampshire.
Thanks!


----------



## Fuze

Can anyone suggest a natural colored sand that will not be too small to top the MTS?

I have white play sand now but when I dirt my tank I will be changing it out, because the particles are too small.


----------



## tokpaler

Is smell really just the way to know whether the soil is successfully mineralized? Cause I can't smell anything from the soil now despite that I just gathered it yesterday. I gathered it under some bushes.


----------



## In.a.Box

It's good to do 4-5 cycle just to be sure its done.
Better hurry cause summer is closing to an end.


----------



## tokpaler

Summer's long over in our side of the world  we're well into monsoon season now. =b


----------



## crazymittens

Having just done the substrate tonight, I can offer the following 'protips':

50G tank requires approximately 50% of one bag of soil
Clay - do this ahead of time...way ahead of time
0.5-0.75" of MTS (recommended) really seems like nothing
Laying MTS/dolomite/potash around hardscape is... difficult...strongly recommend placing hardscape on top of gravel - assuming no digger fish

Hopefully I've done everything right and we get lovely sustainable plant growth.


----------



## herns

One of the longest thread Ive seen. 

Its good to a have hard copy prints for reference when setting up new tank in the future.


----------



## Sylvanoon

*Buying MTS*

Hello. I was very excited to try this method after I accidentaly bought a 20 gallon tank and a few accesories to go with it. Actually, I have tried it twice, but can't get past the second rinse because Florida's weather is bipolar. In fact, it has been raining for the past 2 weeks. I am moving to a smaller place, so it looks like I won't be able to do this myself. 

Is anyone selling MTS? Or, has anyone bought from bamaplants? I really want to go with this method, but mother nature is not letting me so far


----------



## Farmer

Hi all.

I'm really interested in trying this method but am stuck as to what you are buying as 'top soil'. What I call top soil if I dug it from my garden or paddock could not be 'washed' as it is dirt and would be all gone. 

Could someone post a pic of what it looks like? I mean the actual soil you are buying in the bag. I know Aaron's original method has a picture of the bag but it is not a lot of use to someone in another country with different brands/products etc.

Linds


----------



## AaronT

Farmer said:


> Hi all.
> 
> I'm really interested in trying this method but am stuck as to what you are buying as 'top soil'. What I call top soil if I dug it from my garden or paddock could not be 'washed' as it is dirt and would be all gone.
> 
> Could someone post a pic of what it looks like? I mean the actual soil you are buying in the bag. I know Aaron's original method has a picture of the bag but it is not a lot of use to someone in another country with different brands/products etc.
> 
> Linds


Linds,

Yes, that is exactly the soil you want to use. You are not washing it in the sense that you wash a car or something of that nature. You are soaking it in a bucket or other container and changing the water on top after the soil settles to the bottom. This helps to remove any fertilizers or pesticides that might reside in the soil. 

Does that make more sense?


----------



## bpb

I was torn on what topsoil to use as well. The first batch I did was made with dirt I dug myself with a shovel. It worked out ok, but the ingredients weren't all right and my soil was mostly clay sand with not nearly enough organic material to mineralize. That tank lasted about two years without need for supplementation. I JUST started my next batch but am doing it right this time. 

The weather hasn't been much help to me this go around but I'm not in a huge hurry. I am using bagged topsoil this time since my local dirt is just clay sand. I went to Home Depot in the garden center department and at the very end of the line of all the bagged dirt was "earthgro topsoil" 

I've read reviews of this product being used for our purposes and they are mixed. Some were successful and some said that their bag was nothing but pine bark mulch. It seems to be fairly inconsistent. I got two 40lb bags which cost me less than $4. The consistency of mine was ok. A good mixture if sandy loam, clay, and fine organics and it sports the dark color were looking for. 

I just dumped them in a big plastic storage container, filed it with water, let it sit for a day. Gently poured off the water and floating material (this can be extremely heavy, 30 gallons of water isn't exactly light), and then spread the dirt over a tarp. Wait to dry, put dirt back in container, soak, repeat as necessary. You're not so much washing anything. 

You're gonna sift out alot of sticks and bark in just about any topsoil you buy though so be aware. Here's a pic someone requested


----------



## Guns286

Let me preface this by saying that I am, BY NO MEANS, an expert. 
I used regular dirt. My brother-in-law has a landscaping buisness and he gave me a bunch of buckets full of dirt he had removed from a job. 
Anyway, I wet/washed it in one bucket and then filtered it thru screen material (like would be used for a screen window) into another bucket. I then poured off the excess water and spread out the dirt on a tarp to dry. I threw away the stuff that collected on the screen (rocks, branches, etc.).
I repeated this process about 10 times, until I was left with a fine, debris-free, soil. I then mixed it with a quantity of clay and that was it.
As I understand it, it is the wet/filter/dry process that "mineralizes" the dirt. 
So, as I was told by another member, "ITS JUST DIRT". Dont sweat which dirt you are using, as long as you commit to the process of mineralizing it.
Hope this helps alittle.


----------



## bpb

Anybody ever cap their mineralized topsoil with Ada Amazonia???? I may purchase a 5 gallon bucket of used Ada Amazonia but I'm in the process of mineralizing the topsoil. Would that be overkill?


----------



## pianofish

bpb said:


> Anybody ever cap their mineralized topsoil with Ada Amazonia???? I may purchase a 5 gallon bucket of used Ada Amazonia but I'm in the process of mineralizing the topsoil. Would that be overkill?


I was thinking the exact same thing! Or would it be better to cap with something more inert like flourite?


----------



## rbarn

Shouldnt hurt other than the whole point of mineralized top soil is to spare the expense of buying an expensive pre-made substrate with same nutrients.


----------



## rexpepper651

can this be done in a large rubber made container like a 18 gallon one? its winter here an i cant do it outside.


----------



## bpb

rexpepper651 said:


> can this be done in a large rubber made container like a 18 gallon one? its winter here an i cant do it outside.


I did that with my first batch when I lived in an apartment and had no yard. The container sat in my truck bed. This was summer in Texas. After pouring off the water it would take days to dry out completely. Stirring it several times a day. If you are limited to a container and doing it indoors, I may suggest going another route. For me, it wouldn't be worth the time. It'll be summer by the time you finish.


----------



## rexpepper651

i donno i really hope its summer soon. im so sick of snow and i got this 55g that needs to be cleaned before i can even start planting. ive found some places selling the mts but im a pretty cheap guy lol.


----------



## skanderson

i am starting a new 300 which will have a mts base under safety sorb. has anyone tried putting down greensand either in place of the muriate of potash or as an addition to it to try for a more timed release of potassium?


----------



## ForensicFish

Amazon.com has dolomite and muriate of potash for those that are looking for it.


----------



## Ozymandius

SCMurphy said:


> The whole idea was to recreate the soil structure of a wetland or pond in a manner that should be easy to do and safe for the fish (and other inhabitants). Topsoil was the closest thing I could get to the natural soil structure but it usually lacks enough clay and has too much terrestrial organic material. Mineralizing and rinsing gets rid of most any herbicides, pesticides, and chemical fertilizers. I keep saying that people can start with just about any true soil, potting, top or yard, and get it to mineralize. The bagged topsoil with no additives will mineralize faster than the other stuff so I recommend that when people ask.


foolish question I know, but if you opt to use a soil with a high proportion of fine organic material, will you end up with mts with a denser quantity of mineralized nutrients. If so, I would be willing to have a few additional wet dry cycles for a substrate that would take longer to become depleted.

Ozzy


----------



## nate2005

Do i get a prize for reading this whole thread? Lol


----------



## crazymittens

Reporting back....after 10 months, plant growth is quite good, but I did not do the clay portion correctly (it ended up being kinda clumpy, not spread out properly), so I think could even be better.

Currently getting ready for a new batch of MTS for a 20G shrimparium I'm setting up, will report back once that's been running for a while.


----------



## aaronbrown

just wondering if any one has tried homemade organic compost in a tank?


----------



## Hmt321

I have a question.

My kh is less than 1, gh is 4, ph is 6.9

I am in the process of mineralizing 20 lbs of top soil. I plan on capping it with sand.

Should I worry about he low kh and gh?
If so what do I do about it?


----------



## SCMurphy

Hmt321 said:


> I have a question.
> 
> My kh is less than 1, gh is 4, ph is 6.9
> 
> I am in the process of mineralizing 20 lbs of top soil. I plan on capping it with sand.
> 
> Should I worry about he low kh and gh?
> If so what do I do about it?


It's easy to raise the kH a little with some baking soda, the dolomite in the substrate will raise the gH a little over time which should in turn raise the kH. Having the kH up around 4 helps stabilize the pH and CO2 concentrations.


----------



## deaver

I just read all 69 pages over 24 hrs. If anyone would like to know if they should do the same, the answer is no. Read this page http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...-mineralized-soil-substrate-aaron-talbot.html , after that there are the same questions over and over. There are consistantly people answering them. Thanks to AaronT for introducing us all to this method and thank you _TheCryptKeeper for starting this thread. Here is the substrate calculator for those wanting to know how much for your size aquarium. __ http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html_

_Which topsoil ? The one with the most dirt, no manure. The sifting and different phases will take care of the rest._

_Do I need potash? no, but it helps. Potassium is the alternative, best to dose the water column if no potash available._

_Do I need dolomite? no, but it helps. Crushed coral and Epson salts are the alternative._

_Do I need to use clay, can't I use something else? You have to use clay, if for no other reason than its the "binding agent" order it online._

_What amount of topsoil etc? See the calculator/_




_rod_


----------



## Mxx

To add my method, 

I bought a bag of regular topsoil threw it in a 5 gallon bucket, and filled it with water. I ran my hand through the soil until it had broken up all into mud, and then flooded the bucket until whatever floating crap there had been in it had run off. 

I let it settle, then carefully poured/siphoned the water off until I was left with a bucket of soaking wet mud. 

I poured that into a large cake pan and baked it in the oven until the water was mostly gone and the soil looked basically like a giant brownie (and actually smelled nice even). I took it out while it was still moist, but not wet and not burned either. I mixed it then by hand with the different additives. I then used it immediately in my tank, and it seemed to work perfectly well. 

Also, when I put in the soil, I added half an inch of sand, and then a layer of plastic knitting mesh over the top of that, followed by the final inch of sand. That seems to have helped keep the soil in place better, and keep anything which digs in the tank, including myself, from messing up the water and tank with soil.

Baking/boiling is supposed to be the quick alternative method to mineralizing by repeatedly wetting and drying, and I found that approach to be relatively quick and easy, and much less a pain in the ass.


----------



## deaver

Mxx said:


> To add my method, ......Baking/boiling is supposed to be the quick alternative method to mineralizing by repeatedly wetting and drying, and I found that approach to be relatively quick and easy, and much less a pain in the ass.


 IMO, basically you just dirted your tank. The reason for the slow painful process is to get rid of the crap and allow the bacteria to colonize. mineralize, etc. Of course each his own, update us with your results in a few months/

rod


----------



## Mxx

deaver said:


> IMO, basically you just dirted your tank. The reason for the slow painful process is to get rid of the crap and allow the bacteria to colonize. mineralize, etc. Of course each his own, update us with your results in a few months/
> 
> rod


Actually I had been either writing with Tom Barr about it, or had been reading what he wrote about it. And he was the one that had recommended it as an alternative method. I figured he's trusty enough of a source for me to venture giving that a try. 

Boiling the dirt for ten minutes is supposed to achieve the same thing in terms of mineralizing the organics and getting rid of ammonia, that several weeks of mineralizing it by organic means achieves. The bacteria will colonize it eventually anyway soon enough, once you have it in the tank with your water and plants. 

I did this over a year ago for my planted reef tank, (which in itself was extremely experimental however), but saw no ill effects whatsoever that I could discern, and all my corals as well as my seagrasses are doing great. For that tank's soil I'd also then mixed in some old miracle mud I was given as well. 

But the rest of the batch I cooked I've stored for use when I redo my planted FW tank with soil substrate. I'll be dry starting that tank however, in which instance the necessity of mineralizing it was moot, as dry-start would achieve the same thing. But it did make it a lot easier for me to dry out the mud after I'd separated the floating junk off, by baking off the water instead of having to wait for it to dry out, so I was able then to bag it and store it immediately.


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## deaver

cool, thanks for the reply. Gives me something to think about for my new 50gallon.






Mxx said:


> Actually I had been either writing with Tom Barr about it, or had been reading what he wrote about it. And he was the one that had recommended it as an alternative method. I figured he's trusty enough of a source for me to venture giving that a try.
> 
> Boiling the dirt for ten minutes is supposed to achieve the same thing in terms of mineralizing the organics and getting rid of ammonia, that several weeks of mineralizing it by organic means achieves. The bacteria will colonize it eventually anyway soon enough, once you have it in the tank with your water and plants.
> 
> I did this over a year ago for my planted reef tank, (which in itself was extremely experimental however), but saw no ill effects whatsoever that I could discern, and all my corals as well as my seagrasses are doing great. For that tank's soil I'd also then mixed in some old miracle mud I was given as well.
> 
> But the rest of the batch I cooked I've stored for use when I redo my planted FW tank with soil substrate. I'll be dry starting that tank however, in which instance the necessity of mineralizing it was moot, as dry-start would achieve the same thing. But it did make it a lot easier for me to dry out the mud after I'd separated the floating junk off, by baking off the water instead of having to wait for it to dry out, so I was able then to bag it and store it immediately.


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## SCMurphy

Boiling, baking, cooking, etc does not change the organic fraction of a soil at all. It will volatilize any ammonia in the soil, that is true, but it will not change the organic fraction of the soil. The wet and dry mineralization method changes the soil from an organic to a mineral soil by both reducing the organic fraction through aerobic bacterial decomposition and increasing the clay fraction. Please stop disseminating this completely incorrect information.

min·er·al·ize ˈmin(ə)rəˌlīz/ verb: convert (organic matter) wholly or partly into a mineral or inorganic material or structure.

The idea behind the method I helped Aaron write up is to give people a degree of control over their aquarium while being able to use an inexpensive substrate that can grow most plants. It reduces the variables of soil source, soil make up, plant types, water chemistry, fish feeding methods etc. For example, reducing the organic fraction minimizes the opportunity for the substrate to produce things like Hydrogen Sulfide (H2S) in the aquarium by getting aerobic bacteria to remove the food source that anaerobic bacteria would use. So when the substrate goes anoxic* the anaerobic bacteria that does this doesn't overpopulate, over produce H2S, and make life miserable for the roots of your plants. That is just one example. 

That said, if you want to put a loamy humus soil in your aquarium go right ahead. I've been doing that for a long time myself, you can get away with it. (plant LOTS of rosette type plants) Doing anything you want different from the method we described is permissible, but if you want to talk about it you have to document the tweaks you made and your results for others who may wish to tweak things. Share what you do, how you did it, and the results. I'm not going to, I already gave a relatively simple method that works if followed and I have enough to do helping people who try it. YOU get to be the caretaker of your method.


* (without Oxygen, "anaerobic" is a biological process that happens in anoxic conditions or is a critter that lives in anoxic conditions) All soils are anoxic within 48 hours of submergence.


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## plantbrain

Sean,

Definitions from Webster versus Scientific definitions are most often different.

"Mineralization is basically a sequence of enzymatic reactions" in wetland soils. 
This is an old definition I have from Reddy's notes. I would argue based on that definition, thermal methods cannot mineralize since they are not a sequence of enzymatic steps. They(thermal methods) do oxidize however.

Reddy finally made those notes into a book:
Text 2008, page 273. Biogeochemnistry of Wetlands. 

However, many soil research centers suggest fire(or thermal methods) do mineralize soils.

One example:

http://forest.moscowfsl.wsu.edu/smp/solo/documents/GTRs/INT_280/DeBano_INT-280.php

"Fire significantly affects soil properties because organic matter (OM) located on, or near, the soil surface is rapidly combusted. The changes in OM, in turn, affect several chemical, physical, and microbiological properties of the underlying soil. Although some nutrients are volatilized and lost, most nutrients are made more available. Fire acts as a rapid mineralizing agent (St. John and Rundel 1976) that releases nutrients instantaneously as contrasted to natural decomposition processes, which may require years or, in some cases, decades."

How are either of those definitions "incorrect"?
They are specific to soil decomposition. One addresses enzymatic microbial processes, the other addresses thermal methods. 

_*Most*_ Soil Scientist might define mineralization as the complete breakdown of OM into the CO2, H2O and nutrients. Whereas Decomposition(what we actually do) includes the OM breakdown process into smaller macromolecule intermediates, which may be mineralized to the endpoints of inorganic nutrients........ and CO2 or CH4 or used to biotically synthesis or abiotically condense to humic/fulvic acids. Reddy suggest uptake into biomass as a large fraction of decomposition in wetland soils (up to 50% in aerobic systems) and the rest into the inorganic end points(The mineralized fraction). So decomposition to Reddy is both those assimilated fractions and the inorganic end points. He covered his bases there as well. Fire is not a typical issue in most wetlands because they are, well, wet. But some have dry seasons and do/can burn. Just not a widely studied ecosystem. I suppose I could look for such systems, but...........not tonight. 

I'd say the terms seem to be in a state of flux to some degree. But the end point(mineralization) vs the intermediate definition is likely more accepted. I'm hard pressed to argue in favor of a hot stinky mess in the over to the stove top vs something done outside in a shallow pan. I think that is the biggest argument in favor of the method you suggested versus thermal methods. 

Mxx-

Thermal methods are not mine either, they are generally from the worm castings methods from some feller in Brazil. I just suggested those. Microbial methods are a good well founded method also. Just that one was faster and stinkier. If you do the DSM, then you are doing the MTS method also basically. I'm not a strong advocate of the DMS either. 

Just that there are other methods to do these things with various trade offs. 
Some of them might be suited in some cases, but generally, I'm not a huge proponent of DSM or heated stinky soil. Wife will not let me cook stinky soil in the house, end of story. I could BBQ it though:biggrin:


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## shakeelzahoor

Hi i have already done 2 wet/dry cycles to mineralise topsoil and now the topsoil has no smell and i shifted it to a large container it is blocks of dry mud now i will sift it through the nylon screening material to get the airy sand correct me if i am wrong.

now i have another question can i use chalk as its calcium carbonate instead of dolomite ? if not then i have already checked this forum most of them recommend crushed corals or cuttlebones but i am not sure which one is better

i don't have MOP KCL in my area, can i use potassium chloride tablets used for medical patients ? or can i use liquid KCL to my tank ?


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## Mxx

plantbrain said:


> Mxx-
> 
> Thermal methods are not mine either, they are generally from the worm castings methods from some feller in Brazil. I just suggested those. Microbial methods are a good well founded method also. Just that one was faster and stinkier. If you do the DSM, then you are doing the MTS method also basically. I'm not a strong advocate of the DMS either.
> 
> Just that there are other methods to do these things with various trade offs.
> Some of them might be suited in some cases, but generally, I'm not a huge proponent of DSM or heated stinky soil. Wife will not let me cook stinky soil in the house, end of story. I could BBQ it though:biggrin:


Thanks for the clarification Tom, I used the thermal method most recently to prepare an underlay of mineralized topsoil for my reef tank, which I then planted with some seagrasses including stargrass and which has been growing relatively well by the way. 

Incidentally, the soil which I baked/boiled in the oven until dry didn't stink in the least surprisingly enough. It smelled a little more like I had been baking brownies more than anything else, quite surprisingly enough!


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## roadmaster

Me thinks it would be difficult to see anaerobic conditions in substrate of heavily planted tank for the plants are capable of transporting oxygen to their roots.
Me also thinks with properly maintained tank the Hydrogen sulphide boogey man would find it difficult to thrive where O2 is present in the water in sufficient quanity, and plant's are also contributing to O2 during photosynthesis period.
More likely to realize anaerobic condition inside dirty filters or poorly maintained tanks.IMHO


----------



## SCMurphy

roadmaster said:


> Me thinks it would be difficult to see anaerobic *anoxic *conditions in substrate of heavily planted tank for the plants are capable of transporting oxygen to their roots.
> Me also thinks with properly maintained tank the Hydrogen sulphide boogey man would find it difficult to thrive where O2 is present in the water in sufficient quanity, and plant's are also contributing to O2 during photosynthesis period.
> More likely to realize anaerobic *anoxic * condition inside dirty filters or poorly maintained tanks.IMHO


Actually you can see the anoxic vs oxic conditions in a soil substrate in an aquarium with a viewable glass bottom. The roots that bring O2 to the substrate form a rhizosphere of O2 influenced soil which will have a different color than the surrounding anoxic soil. You will always have anoxic conditions in a submerged substrate because the plants can't oxygenate the substrate intensely enough to out do the aerobic bacteria using up the O2, and the assorted chemical reactions that are occurring in the substrate. 



plantbrain said:


> However, many soil research centers suggest fire(or thermal methods) do mineralize soils.


First, thanks for the FS paper, it has a few references that I'll be looking up as well. Gotta have recreational reading for the train rides ever day. :icon_cool 

Second, I think I just realized why we are still having this conversation.

OK the reason they discuss fire is because they are discussing the combustion of the organic matter in the soil. Here is why we are still having this discussion. Combustion is not the same as an application of heat through boiling or baking (your thermal methods) or the radiation of heat into the lower levels of the soil which in the paper are mineral soils, i.e., the layers under the combusting organic soil. 

From the abstract of the FS paper you suggest, emphasis added:


> Fire affects nutrient cycling and the physical, chemical, and biological properties of soils occupied by western-montane forests. *Combustion* of litter and soil organic matter (OM) increases the availability of some nutrients, although others are volatilized (for example, N, P, S). Soil OM loss also affects cation exchange capacity, organic chelation, aggregate stability, macro pore space, infiltration, and soil microorganisms. Nitrogen replenishment must be emphasized when prescribed burning programs are planned or during rehabilitation following wildfires.


So yes, Tom, if you burn the organic matter in an organic soil you have mineralized the organic matter and made a mineral soil, both by reducing the organic fraction (burning it reduces the fractional volume,) and by mineralizing the organic fraction. However, I'm pretty sure I wasn't discussing burning, just baking and boiling, which, again, are not the same as burning. If you really think about it, or read it in the introduction of the FS paper.


> Fire acts as a rapid mineralizing agent (St. John and Rundel 1976) that releases nutrients instantaneously as contrasted to natural decomposition processes, which may require years or, in some cases, decades.


 What the bacteria do to the OM is actually close to the effect of burning, just slower and contained.

For anyone who wants to suggest microwaving, sauteing, deep frying, smoking, using a popcorn air popper, or a flame thrower.... you are on your own. 

I want to make a joke about slash and boil agricultural methods being supplanted by slash and burn, but it just isn't coming together.


----------



## roadmaster

I will concede that anaerobic or anoxic condition's exist right along with healthy plants,fishes,invert's.
Too many examples abound of same, for the H2S boogey man to be of concern both in freshwater planted aquariums, and deep sand beds on the saltwater side of the hobby.
Will stand by my assertion that that the conditions you claim would wreak havoc on the roots of plants is rare in properly maintained aquaria where sufficient Oxygen exist's.
You claim plant's cannot produce enough O2 for it not to be of concern for the plants according to previous post's and that in my view is merely your opinion which you ae entitled to.

P.S When I look at my tanks from underneath while removing canisters for cleaning each month,all I see pressed against the glass are healthy looking white/greenish root systems of plants despite relatively deep sand/soil mixture.
No brown or rotting looking roots as one might expect with low to no oxygen being present .
No one I know/you know could ever point definitively to the H2S boogey man as being solely responsible for poor health or death of fishes or plants.


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## Gatekeeper

scmurphy said:


> for anyone who wants to suggest microwaving, sauteing, deep frying, smoking, using a popcorn air popper, or a flame thrower.... You are on your own.


lol!!!!!


----------



## Gatekeeper

> I will concede that anaerobic or anoxic condition's exist right along with healthy plants,fishes,invert's.
> Too many examples abound of same, for the H2S boogey man to be of concern both in freshwater planted aquariums, and deep sand beds on the saltwater side of the hobby.
> Will stand by my assertion that that the conditions you claim would wreak havoc on the roots of plants is rare in properly maintained aquaria where sufficient Oxygen exist's.


I think you just contradicted yourself. Wreaking havoc in a "properly maintained aquarium" would mean the aquarium is not being properly maintained.



> You claim plant's cannot produce enough O2 for it not to be of concern for the plants according to previous post's and that in my view is merely your opinion which you ae entitled to.


I don't know about you guys but I don't see O2 bubbles coming out of my substrate. I am going to go out on a limb here and trust Sean's opinion over your "bogeyman theory".



> When I look at my tanks from underneath while removing canisters for cleaning each month,all I see pressed against the glass are healthy looking white/greenish root systems of plants despite relatively deep sand/soil mixture. No brown or rotting looking roots as one might expect with low to no oxygen being present .


Sounds like a healthy aquarium to me.



> No one I know/you know could ever point definitively to the H2S boogey man as being solely responsible for poor health or death of fishes or plants.


That is a stretch. I have burned roots in neglected tanks before and the first thing I smell when I pull those plants is usually a strong H2S odor followed by a swampy icky smell (<- that is my highly educated technical term for "it smells really bad"). Can I give you scientific conclusions that the H2S boogey man did it, I guess not, I never really cared enough to set up a control and test the theory. Then again, I don't really care either.

Maintain your tanks and its a non issue. It doesn't have to be MTS substrate for this condition to exist.

I have used MTS for years and it works. Period. 

I can't support the science of it (I think Tom and Sean have done that enough for us). But as a hobbyist, that is what I can offer: It freaking works.


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## SCMurphy

roadmaster said:


> P.S When I look at my tanks from underneath while removing canisters for cleaning each month,all I see pressed against the glass are healthy looking white/greenish root systems of plants despite relatively deep sand/soil mixture.
> No brown or rotting looking roots as one might expect with low to no oxygen being present .


Sounds like nice healthy roots, but what I want you to look at if you have a soil substrate is the dirt around the roots. The oxidized soils tend to be lighter in color in my tanks than the surrounding reduced soils. It will be a thin band that follows the roots. That is the rhizosphere of the root and the limit of the lighter color is the limit of the O2.


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## roadmaster

Gatekeeper said:


> I think you just contradicted yourself. Wreaking havoc in a "properly maintained aquarium" would mean the aquarium is not being properly maintained.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about you guys but I don't see O2 bubbles coming out of my substrate. I am going to go out on a limb here and trust Sean's opinion over your "bogeyman theory".
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like a healthy aquarium to me.
> 
> 
> 
> That is a stretch. I have burned roots in neglected tanks before and the first thing I smell when I pull those plants is usually a strong H2S odor followed by a swampy icky smell (<- that is my highly educated technical term for "it smells really bad"). Can I give you scientific conclusions that the H2S boogey man did it, I guess not, I never really cared enough to set up a control and test the theory. Then again, I don't really care either.
> 
> Maintain your tanks and its a non issue. It doesn't have to be MTS substrate for this condition to exist.
> 
> I have used MTS for years and it works. Period.
> 
> I can't support the science of it (I think Tom and Sean have done that enough for us). But as a hobbyist, that is what I can offer: It freaking works.


 
Read carefully,,, it was not I who claimed the H2S boogey man would wreak havoc with roots of plants.
It WAS I, who said that in properly maintained tanks which most of us run,that it is non issue.
Once the gas makes contact with O2 in the water it is quickly oxidized.
Agree with you that in neglected tanks many things can happen,most of them bad.


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## dzega

i just tossed the tank because of this, so please don't call hydrogen sulfide buildup in soil a boogey just because you haven't met the condition. 
and yes, the tank was healthy enaugh, at least more healthy than few dirted lowtechs i had wich didnt had H2S problem.
the only thing i did different with this tank was i dumped dry potting mix into it insted of rinsing and let sit it first. 
and to add, H2S buildup happened where there was stem plants only and under driftwood. under DHG there were no such problem


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## roadmaster

I think lots of plants make the difference for as mentioned,,the plants are capable of transporting oxygen to their roots.H2S only problematic in low oxygen conditions or if you go digging around in deep substrates.
The more rooted plants,the more oxygen being delivered to the substrate/roots.
Sorry you had bad experience ,but it does not take away from the many who have never had an issue with the Deeper planted tanks or deep sand in marine tanks.
Other issues surely at play for those who do.


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## roadmaster

Good article for those interested.Particular interest in biological oxidation,stability in water.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rh/index.php



In the article..

The rate of oxidation of sulfide is directly tied to how much sulfide is present, and levels of oxygen.
And can also be catalyzed by certain metals such as Iron.
Typically the half life of hydrogen sulfide under such conditions is less than a day, and can be only a couple hours.
In planted tanks or reef tanks where Iron is dosed, the half life can be much lower as the added Iron may accelerate the oxidation.
Hydrogen sulfide can also be taken up by bacteria and oxidized under aerobic conditions back to sulfate.
In this process, the bacteria gain energy much as other organisim's gain energy by oxidizing organic compounds.
Bacteria can also use Manganese oxide instead of O2 to produce sulfate from hydrogen sulfide,so the process can occur
even in anoxic conditions.
It does not occur in single chemical step,but usually involves such intermediates as thiosulfate(SSO3).


----------



## roadmaster

dzega said:


> i just tossed the tank because of this, so please don't call hydrogen sulfide buildup in soil a boogey just because you haven't met the condition.
> and yes, the tank was healthy enaugh, at least more healthy than few dirted lowtechs i had wich didnt had H2S problem.
> the only thing i did different with this tank was i dumped dry potting mix into it insted of rinsing and let sit it first.
> and to add, H2S buildup happened where there was stem plants only and under driftwood. under DHG there were no such problem


 Your post in May for the tank you mentioned indicates that six months previous you placed the potting soil at depth of one inch and covered it with quartz sand to a depth of one and a half inches for total of two and a half inches.
This depth is not enough to worry bout the H2S boogey man whether you placed the soil in the tank wet or dry (like I always do before capping it).
The star grass you had ,you complained was growing too quickly and you were gonna remove it , and you report no problems growing HC.
I have related the same thing you were told by another member at the time (ie)
Rooted plants can transport oxygen to their roots and thereby negating concern over the H2S boogey man.(more plants the less worries)
Certainly at no deeper substrate than you reported,there were other issues.
The one inch of soil you started with in six months time would have settled to more like 1/4 inch, and nutrients would have been close to exhausted.
This could be problematic.Inconsistent CO2 delivery or diffusion from your paint ball application could also been a factor,don't know what fert routine was but this too could have been symptomatic,maint schedule, lighting etc.etc.
Is easy to look for something to blame but you may want to look elsewhere .


----------



## SCMurphy

roadmaster said:


> Good article for those interested.Particular interest in biological oxidation,stability in water.
> 
> http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/rh/index.php


Dude, 

The article you posted is easier to get to through the contents page of that issue: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-12/ it seems like they blocked direct linking to the articles, well at least I got a "404 not found" message when I clicked on your link. Yes it is a good article.

The bad news is that article does not support your position in the way you think it does, read it through again, especially the end. Remember a few things, he is discussing saltwater for the most part, freshwater chemistry does differ somewhat, yes I saw that he did touch upon it in places. Also the submerged soil pore environment is not the same as the water column environment. And since you want to argue about how much O2 is in a submerged soil:

Read this: http://biology.kenyon.edu/fennessy/SrexMarx/finwate.htm

Then read chapter 3 of Plant Surface Microbiology edited by Ajit Varma, Rüdiger Hampp, Dietrich Werner, Lynette Abbott, (google "aquatic plant rhizosphere" it was on the bottom of the first page for me)

Get a hold of Limnology: Lake and River Ecosystems by Robert G. Wetzel, read chapter 20 in the second edition, or chapter 21 in the third edition.

Get Wetlands by William J. Mitsch, James G. Gosselink. Read it.

Tell me if you have access to electronic journals at a college or something and I'll give you a few papers to read. If you are going to need help getting papers I am willing to help. I'm willing to feed you journal papers till you think your head is going to explode. 

I'm glad you understand that aquatic plants move O2 to the roots through the aerenchymal tissues. Most people in the hobby have no clue about that. Spend some time reading a little more about it and stop trying to mythologize H2S, it's not going to make you right. (drop the boogieman nonsense)


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## roadmaster

O2 in substrates that healthy plants deliver to their roots in addition to the O2 in the water above,,(more O2 than in saltwater) that plants can also deliver during photosynthesis/respiration, in addition to O2 exchange at the surface in our aquariums while being filtered = little concern for the H2S that may be present even in deep soil/sand. H2S can only thrive in low oxygen conditions.
I wade through freshwater lakes,ponds, while fishing with mud/sand up to my knees and tangles of water weeds, mosses,Lilly pads ,so thick one can hardly get free from them.
Nobody pokes or sifts through the mud/sand in these bodies of water , yet plants and fishes thrive here.
I also fish small lakes,ponds where there is no plant life except for that growing around the shore.These ponds/lakes also have deep muck/mud bottoms yet the fishes I catch and release are fat and happy.
Nobody pokes ,sifts through the knee deep muck in these areas except maybe cattle,deer, other small creatures which come to drink,or myself while wading.
I appreciate our offer to provide more info but respectfully decline.
Everyone is free to try, then do,and form their own views on the topic.


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## dzega

roadmaster said:


> Your post in May for the tank you mentioned indicates that six months previous you placed the potting soil at depth of one inch and covered it with quartz sand to a depth of one and a half inches for total of two and a half inches.
> This depth is not enough to worry bout the H2S boogey man whether you placed the soil in the tank wet or dry (like I always do before capping it).
> The star grass you had ,you complained was growing too quickly and you were gonna remove it , and you report no problems growing HC.
> I have related the same thing you were told by another member at the time (ie)
> Rooted plants can transport oxygen to their roots and thereby negating concern over the H2S boogey man.(more plants the less worries)
> Certainly at no deeper substrate than you reported,there were other issues.
> The one inch of soil you started with in six months time would have settled to more like 1/4 inch, and nutrients would have been close to exhausted.
> This could be problematic.Inconsistent CO2 delivery or diffusion from your paint ball application could also been a factor,don't know what fert routine was but this too could have been symptomatic,maint schedule, lighting etc.etc.
> Is easy to look for something to blame but you may want to look elsewhere .


im not arguing how exactly h2s affects plant growth. all im saying is i had this tank where half of it was covered with DHG and other half had casual(from root perspective) stem plants. and on that other side where there were no root feeder present i got strong h2s buildup. the DHG side of the tank didnt had that so your theory about roots eliminating h2s seems correct. nevertheless i did tossed the tank because it was not acceptable to have smelly bubbling from substrate on one half of the tank. 
now i have switched the substrate to MTS and left all other things as close to previous state as possible (cap material, plant layout, ferts, light, co2). will see the results in a few weeks


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## Gatekeeper

dzega said:


> im not arguing how exactly h2s affects plant growth. all im saying is i had this tank where half of it was covered with DHG and other half had casual(from root perspective) stem plants. and on that other side where there were no root feeder present i got strong h2s buildup. the DHG side of the tank didnt had that so your theory about roots eliminating h2s seems correct. nevertheless i did tossed the tank because it was not acceptable to have smelly bubbling from substrate on one half of the tank.
> now i have switched the substrate to MTS and left all other things as close to previous state as possible (cap material, plant layout, ferts, light, co2). will see the results in a few weeks


Get some Malaysian trumpet Snails. They will clear the substrate up for you real quick. Never had a major issue when these buggers were in there doing their thing.


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## roadmaster

dzega said:


> im not arguing how exactly h2s affects plant growth. all im saying is i had this tank where half of it was covered with DHG and other half had casual(from root perspective) stem plants. and on that other side where there were no root feeder present i got strong h2s buildup. the DHG side of the tank didnt had that so your theory about roots eliminating h2s seems correct. nevertheless i did tossed the tank because it was not acceptable to have smelly bubbling from substrate on one half of the tank.
> now i have switched the substrate to MTS and left all other things as close to previous state as possible (cap material, plant layout, ferts, light, co2). will see the results in a few weeks


 
Wishing you better results than previously.:thumbsup:


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## pweifan

Gatekeeper said:


> Get some Malaysian trumpet Snails. They will clear the substrate up for you real quick. Never had a major issue when these buggers were in there doing their thing.


Would Malaysian Trumpet Snails cause a problem with a Mineralized Top Soil tank by mixing the soil and the cap?


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## Gatekeeper

pweifan said:


> Would Malaysian Trumpet Snails cause a problem with a Mineralized Top Soil tank by mixing the soil and the cap?


Not at all! I have used them both religiously for years. I almost feel like you need them. MTS + MTS = balanced substrate. Keeps it from getting too compact in my opinion. 

They will breed like wild fire, but snails don't bother me, especially these.


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## pweifan

Gatekeeper said:


> Not at all! I have used them both religiously for years. I almost feel like you need them. MTS + MTS = balanced substrate. Keeps it from getting too compact in my opinion.
> 
> They will breed like wild fire, but snails don't bother me, especially these.


Hmmm... I've always hated snails breeding in my tanks, but I've never kept Malaysian Trumpets. I'd have to get over the stigma in my mind. Do they eat algae as well?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDX1j1z5mME
I think I may be a convert!


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## Gatekeeper

pweifan said:


> Hmmm... I've always hated snails breeding in my tanks, but I've never kept Malaysian Trumpets. I'd have to get over the stigma in my mind. Do they eat algae as well?
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDX1j1z5mME
> I think I may be a convert!


Well that video is a bit over the top! LOL. To be honest, during the day, they are actually quite passive and stay away from the light from my experience. But they do need to be purged from time to time. They will certainly clog your filters over time, so keep that in mind.


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## roadmaster

I keep the trumpet snails as well, and during the day they spend their time sifting through the first few centimeters of substrate which helps aerate the substrate.
A mass migration of them up the glass during daylight hours might indicate to me that something is afoul with water chemistry in a closed system or at least give me pause to check.
As other's have noted, their population is often tied to the amount of food being fed to the other inhabitant's in the aquarium.


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## BigJay180

pweifan said:


> Hmmm... I've always hated snails breeding in my tanks, but I've never kept Malaysian Trumpets. I'd have to get over the stigma in my mind. Do they eat algae as well?
> 
> EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDX1j1z5mME
> I think I may be a convert!


That's pretty impressive. 

My reef 'clean up crew' snails would only make a few random drunken trails through the glass algae, and then get stuck in the overflow drains and start a flood.


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## Gamezawy

have any one tried to add some nutrients to the MTS before adding it to the tank ? adding like kno3, KH2PO4, humic acid or any kind of suitable fertilizers to enhance this system and give it a much longer fertilizing time to the plant ?

i am lazy to read a 70 page to know the answer for my question if it has been discussed before sorry about that


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## SCMurphy

Gamezawy said:


> have any one tried to add some nutrients to the MTS before adding it to the tank ? adding like kno3, KH2PO4, humic acid or any kind of suitable fertilizers to enhance this system and give it a much longer fertilizing time to the plant ?
> 
> i am lazy to read a 70 page to know the answer for my question if it has been discussed before sorry about that


You might have noticed when no one said anything for 2 months that people don't answer questions when you say you are too lazy to read the answers. Anyhow, I set up several 30 gallon tanks 16 years ago, sold them with the substrate intact and they are still growing plants for those people. How long do you want this to last?


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## bcbishop

Would this be a safe substrate to use for a shrimp tank?


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## pweifan

Yes, no issues here in my shrimp tank.


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## Mxx

Worm Castings?? Can I use worm castings entirely instead of topsoil in an MTS mix, if I'm going to fully mineralize it anyway? It seems richer in the minerals and nutrients you want, you have a better idea of what you are getting in the bag, and it shouldn't contain a lot of the bits of annoying bits of wood and stones you get in bags of topsoil. 

"Worm castings are the richest natural fertilizer known to humans. That's right: as little as a tablespoon of pure worm castings provides enough organic plant nutrients to feed a 6" potted plant for more than two months. Worm castings stimulate plant growth more than any other natural product on the market. Unlike animal manure and artificial fertilizers it is absorbed easily and immediately by plants."

I have a 25 litre bag of PLAGRON ORGANIC WORM HUMUS CASTINGS I bought fairly inexpensively. The process I'm thinking of using would be to pour it into a large baking pan, wet it, bake/boil it for 10-20 minutes (to mineralize and sterilize it) and then mix it with 20% powdered red clay and maybe some peat to acidify it and activated carbon to make it more permeable. Then I'd lay it the usual way with a sprinkling of potassium powder and dolomite, cover it with a plastic knitting mesh and then quartz sand, plant it, and then it dry-start for a month or maybe two. 

I guess the concern with a highly organic fertilizer is that it will continue to decompose, but if I'm doing dry-start then to mineralize it then I don't think that matters at all, does it?


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## Hoppy

Mineralizing means converting organic compounds to inorganic compounds, or converting ammonia to nitrate. A dry start does that if it takes the usual 4-6 weeks or longer for the dry start.

I have been thinking about using worm castings in my next tank set-up, and that will be in about 2 months, so you just turned on a light bulb above my head!! There is a source pretty close to where I live too.


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## Mxx

Well hope that helps! I just did a nano tank with about 10-20% worm castings in the MTS as the organic component of the mix. And then I had that same light bulb go off in my head only afterwards, while looking at the leftover 24 kg of worm casting and wondering what to do with it. At that moment I realized I should have just done almost the entire mix in worm castings. Sigh... Oh well, next tank coming up shortly I guess!

And I assume the roots of the plants that I planted in the sand layer will introduce enough bacteria to seed the mineralization process, despite that they're clean tissue-culture grown 1-2 Grow plants from Tropica. But maybe I should have picked up a bottle of Dr. Tim's One and only nitrifying bacteria instead and tossed that into the mix.


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## ajwan

Plan on using worm castings/eco-complete in a 40:60 ratio as a base (and dolomite and KCl) followed by a 3-4" layer of 50:50 coarse sand / eco-complete cap. Would the use of a base heater cable (2-3 degrees above absent water temp) help to prevent anaerobic zones and improve things in any way during the initial set up phase?


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## Netcode

Dolomite seems near impossible to source. What are other methods of providing Calcium and Magnesium to the roots? I have very softwater so I really liked the idea of dolomite in the substrate in order to keep it from going acidic.


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## Mxx

Netcode said:


> Dolomite seems near impossible to source. What are other methods of providing Calcium and Magnesium to the roots? I have very softwater so I really liked the idea of dolomite in the substrate in order to keep it from going acidic.


Crushed coral, coral sand, crushed dried eggshells, crushed oyster shells. I found granular dolomite easily on the major auction site however.


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## Hilde

So any benefits from using black worm casting?


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