# 180P build



## Pugman

Hello planted people. I just sold my reef tank to help fund this project. This system will include the following. 180P ADA Aquarium. A custom stand to mimic the ADA one because they don't sell it in my area. The lighting will be three Ecotech Radion LEDs. Filtration will be two Fluval G6's with two Hydor 300w Inline heaters. I am going to use a combination of Fluvals soil and Eco Complete. I would love to get some Unzan Stone but I don't know where to get. Lights will be here next week. The stand and tank will be delivered by the end of the month. Although I'm really excited about getting this I'm not looking forward to transporting this glass. I think it's close to 400 lbs.


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## 150EH

Well welcome to the forum and your starting your planted tank hobby with some great stuff, is Chico in Illinois?


I think that tank is going to be over 400 but I'm not sure either, just make sure you bring extra muscle.


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## Da Plant Man

This is going to be one of the best tanks I have ever seen. 180-p is a perfect size. I wish I could get one, you lucky duck.

Best of luck!

(Chico as in California?)


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## Pugman

Got these the other day.

There are a couple of Chicos in the US but I'm in California.


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## Pugman

This has probably been asked a thousand times but dose anyone have any leads on some
Unzan Stones? The two ADA distributors don't seem to carry it. I can't even find a way to import it.


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## brohawk

It's just black lava rock, renamed by ADA. Try rock yards or bonsai suppliers. Good luck w/ the build.


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## OverStocked

If you're not committed to it, I would go with all ADA soil or all Fluval soil. I'd skip the ecocomplete. It offers essentially nothing.


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## Pugman

OverStocked said:


> If you're not committed to it, I would go with all ADA soil or all Fluval soil. I'd skip the ecocomplete. It offers essentially nothing.


I can get the Fluval soil cheaper and it has the same look. However if there is a big diference between the two I'm not completely sold on Fluval. I use the Eco complete underneath the soil just trying to mimic ADA's power sand. In the last video of Amano's Unzan stone build I watched he just used all soil. Is this the latest style?

Thanks for the feedback:icon_smil


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## Pugman

I got a package in the mail today from Hong Kong. My glassware. I went with the cheaper glass for now as I would cry if I broke an ADA pipe. The tank set me back quite a bit and there is no substitution for there quality of aquariums. I also picked up the hanging kits for the lights.


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## Pugman

Got a few more things in. FLUVAL Soil, inline heaters, Radion LEDs. I can't get the glass yet as I am still waiting for the stand to be constructed. He ran into a couple of snags so it's been delayed to the end of the week. Oh well I still have to find some stones. Also I have to have a custom light rail built once I get the stand as well. These lights are incredible.


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## Couesfanatic

I am so jealous. Nice job by doing it right the first time.


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## Pugman

Thanks. I'm pretty excited to get this going. I'm new to this forum but I've had aquariums for over 25 years. Mostly saltwater. I've set up one planted tank before and had success to a certain extent (some algae issues). I still have a lot to learn tho.


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## zachary908

This is going to be one heck of a tank! Nice to see someone doing it right the first go around. I went cheap with my first tank set up only to find myself upgrading...


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## shrimpnmoss

Sweet...Christmas in March!...ENVY!...


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## frrok

Subscribed!


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## Pugman

zachary908 said:


> This is going to be one heck of a tank! Nice to see someone doing it right the first go around. I went cheap with my first tank set up only to find myself upgrading...


I've done things on the cheap side and generally speaking you get what you pay for. I went cheap on the glass pipes because I have a two year old and one in the oven. I imagine they will break something one day. When they are older I'll replace them with ADA quality pipes. There is a difference.

On a side note I was thinking of putting in 250 CPD's. Opinion's?


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## Lakehouse

Who ordered the 180p for you (aqua forest or adgshop)? Can I ask how much it was?


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## Couesfanatic

I cant comment on 250, but a big group of cpd's would be awesome. I just got 6 in my Mini M. I really like the fish. From what i've seen over the last few weeks, the six I have are somewhat a group but spend time solo when not in fear. The tank I bought mine from had 50 to 70 in there. They acted more as a group then my six. I don't know if i've ever seen that many together. Go for it. 

I also think 250 Boraras Briggitae would be cool.


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## Booger

Unless you're going with a very open aquascape like an iwagumi, I would suggest a lot more flow. Given you experience with reef tanks, I'm sure you're familiar with Vortech or other propeller pumps.


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## robbowal

subscribed
As this looks be a very nice hi tech tank

I agree with Booger, i would use the Vortech (Mp40 should do the job) for flow go with the wireless that way it can be then controlled from the radion units (for slowing for feeding and weather patterns)
i use an Mp10 on a 40G and its the business IMO


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## FlyingGiraffes

Wow! Excited to follow this. How much was the tank and shipping?


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## CrazyCatPeekin

Subscribed!


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## wastedtime

Subscribed, this looks like an amazing project


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## dewalltheway

Subscrided...should be good.

Doing anything with CO2?


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## grogan

Hmm Eco tech leds. This is going to be interesting to see how they perform. We carry them at the shop I work at but I haven't really heard anything about them over a planted tank. Subscribed.


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## Pugman

There's been delay after delay with the stand but I'm suposed to get it tomorrow. The tank is 4K and $210 to have it shipped. The lights grow corals amazingly well so I'd imagine they'll grow plants. Fluval G6's put out pretty good flow for a canister. Do I really need more flow?


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## jkan0228

How big is a 180P? 180gallons? No matter what size, in a planted tank youll want a turnover rate of about 10-12 times IMO. So 2 G6's won't come close.

Oh yea, subscribed.


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## IWANNAGOFAST

dude this is so nuts!! I think there's less than 10 actual ADA 180-p's in America.

And the radians!!!! i'm super jealous!!


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## Da Plant Man

jkan0228 said:


> How big is a 180P? 180gallons? No matter what size, in a planted tank youll want a turnover rate of about 10-12 times IMO. So 2 G6's won't come close.
> 
> Oh yea, subscribed.


Its 155g. Total turn over rate would be 3.41gph so you would most definitely need a powerhead or two. 180p simply means its 180cm long and 'p' meaning the depth is *about* the same as height.


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## b10n

this is gonna be dopee
i never seen so much substrate!


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## Pugman

Doing the math it's about 171 gallons. Maybe a little less because of the thickness of the glass. I've seen this tank set up at Aqua Forest and I don't recall additional circulation. In the ADA show room there are several of them and again there are no pumps. I'm really going for a clean look and I really don't want to be looking at pumps. Am I wrong here?


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## jkan0228

If you've seen them in person then they probably have multiple pumps setup to multiple lily pipes. If you've seen pics of them, then they take out the pipes and other stuff in the tank for pics. A Vortech wouldn't even take up much space. The MP10 or 20 would be enough.


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## Da Plant Man

Pugman said:


> Doing the math it's about 171 gallons. Maybe a little less because of the thickness of the glass. I've seen this tank set up at Aqua Forest and I don't recall additional circulation. In the ADA show room there are several of them and again there are no pumps. I'm really going for a clean look and I really don't want to be looking at pumps. Am I wrong here?


I was going off the ADA website, and they said 155g. Most likely because of the glass.

I AM SO EXCITED!


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## IWANNAGOFAST

The ones at AFA use much more powerful canisters than the fluval g6's

If I were you, I'd return those and get a pair of fx5's or some rena xp-4's. The g6's only push 260gph, the xp4's do 450gph and the fx5 does 920 gph.


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## krillkill

this is one insane build! looking forward to how it comes along.


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## rockwood

Honestly, if it were me doing something this big with a tank this nice I'd run an overflow like Tom Barr is doing on his "dutch" tank and sump it. It would give you great surface movement which IMO is awesome with LED lighting because it bounces it all across the bottom of the tank like sunlight. If your adamant about canisters then... 2x Eheim 2262's for the win. 

FX5's are good too but they supposedly slow down a lot with media in them. 

Regardless, I think you're going to find that the G6's won't get it done. This is especially true if you want to steer clear of power heads in the tank, which I understand.

Let's go with what ADA says at 155g tank capacity. The 2 g6s will put out 528g/hr flow rate. So you'll be turning the tank over about 3.4 times per hour. However that's without anything like heaters, CO2 reactors, etc to slow things down. PLUS as the filter does its job the flow will slowly reduce between filter maintenance. 

To compare, I have 2x Ehiem 2215 canisters on my 75g putting out 328g/hr. I have the 2217 impellers in them also so that boosts the flow some but I'm not sure how much. Doing the math that means I'm turning my tank over roughly 4.4 times per hour and I STILL needed to put a Koralia 750 in there to get enough flow. I actually just bought a 2262 to replace both of my 2215's with in order to boost that number to roughly 10x per hour. 

I have 2 ETH heaters (one on each filter) a CO2 reactor and Turbo Twist UV after them which is probably at LEAST what you'll have running on this 180-P monster. 

Most people I see are putting something like a 2215 or 2217 (or equivalent) on their ADA 60-Ps which give them 9-14x turn over per hour before they add equipment. 

Just wanted to throw all that out there.


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## robbowal

If your worried about flow just use a vortech mp40w (1000Gph-3200Gph) and it will sync with the uber cool radion lighting you have already to simulate storms and tidal swells, thats if you are set on keeping the G6's just for bio load. also the mp40 wet side is only 3"x2.25" (thats tiny for a power head of its capabilities) the dry side is the same size.
Like i said i use an Mp10 on lagoon mode at 50% power on a 40G and its more than enough flow.


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## Bensr20det

Awesome build! Subscribed


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## Pugman

Hum....This is all new news to to me. This seems to be close to the same flow of reef tanks. I was under the assumption that Lilly pipes cut the unessassary flow that canisters create. Overflow boxes are nice to skim the protein from the surface but it seems to me they would decrease the CO2 levels. Vortech pumps are awesome but that's the last thing I want hanging on the side of my tank. Unless they make them out of glass lol. I just found out my stands been delayed another week. Ugh!! The guy I'm having building it is a perfectionist so I'm sure it'lll be worth the wait. On a side note Fluval rate their flow rates on there canisters when they are full of media, most others rate them empty so it's hard to compare flow rates.


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## Capsaicin_MFK

I'm pretty sure the two G6's will do just fine. If you went with FX5's you would have to split the 1" tubing into two 5/8" so you could attach the heaters and lily pipes without losing flow, but that would mean 4 inlet pipes and 4 outlet...lots of glass pipes in the tank.


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## robbowal

Pugman said:


> Hum....This is all new news to to me. This seems to be close to the same flow of reef tanks. I was under the assumption that Lilly pipes cut the unessassary flow that canisters create. Overflow boxes are nice to skim the protein from the surface but it seems to me they would decrease the CO2 levels. Vortech pumps are awesome but that's the last thing I want hanging on the side of my tank. Unless they make them out of glass lol. I just found out my stands been delayed another week. Ugh!! The guy I'm having building it is a perfectionist so I'm sure it'lll be worth the wait. On a side note Fluval rate their flow rates on there canisters when they are full of media, most others rate them empty so it's hard to compare flow rates.


Not nearly as much flow as reefs (the magic number seems to be between 5x and 10x turnover) the lilly pipes spead out the flow in a vortex type swirl and are less direct (like a spray bar is) and help eliminate dead spots. if you choose to go iwagumi it would be fine but if you plant densly then that was the reason for recomending the vortech to you (wide soft adjustable flow). i totally understand the clean look approach i personally dont like pipes over the rim of a tank, lucky for me my tank is backed on three sides and drilled for the pipe work ,so i dont see the outside of the vortech when viewing.
I have to say what ever you choose to use it is still going to be an amazing tank.


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## prototyp3

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> dude this is so nuts!! I think there's less than 10 actual ADA 180-p's in America.


I think that's because we have a lot of US based options available to us for large builds. Once you go past 75 gallons or so, ADA tanks aren't very competitive price-wise. Tom Barr has mentioned this many times. After getting quotes, I can confirm he's right.
Just for comparison, A.G.E. quoted a custom 180 gallon Starphire tank shipped for about half the cost.

---

Back to the OP, that pair of Fluval G6's may work alright for you. It really depends on how you plan to scape and plant the tank. I skimmed through the thread, so I didn't notice if you already mentioned the plan. Obviously if it's thicker you may have some pockets where circulation isn't so good. 

If you are aiming for a sleek look you might want to skip the glass (and soon to be brown) pipes in favor of having the intakes and returns plumbed through the bottom. Hiding them behind decor wouldn't be too difficult. And if the scape changes you could use locline or tubing buried under the substrate to route them to new hidden locations.

Definitely looking forward to seeing this one develop!


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## Chlorophile

I've got 100 gph on a 5 gallon tank, for such a large tank id probably sump instead of using canisters


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## Pugman

prototyp3 said:


> I think that's because we have a lot of US based options available to us for large builds. Once you go past 75 gallons or so, ADA tanks aren't very competitive price-wise. Tom Barr has mentioned this many times. After getting quotes, I can confirm he's right.
> Just for comparison, A.G.E. quoted a custom 180 gallon Starphire tank shipped for about half the cost.
> 
> ---
> 
> Back to the OP, that pair of Fluval G6's may work alright for you. It really depends on how you plan to scape and plant the tank. I skimmed through the thread, so I didn't notice if you already mentioned the plan. Obviously if it's thicker you may have some pockets where circulation isn't so good.
> 
> If you are aiming for a sleek look you might want to skip the glass (and soon to be brown) pipes in favor of having the intakes and returns plumbed through the bottom. Hiding them behind decor wouldn't be too difficult. And if the scape changes you could use locline or tubing buried under the substrate to route them to new hidden locations.
> 
> Definitely looking forward to seeing this one develop!


I guess I'm alone in my perspective here. I view ADA style aquariums as art. Although I've seen better layouts then Amanos tanks, I believe his over all appearance of the aquarium it self it beautiful artwork. The the low iron rimless glass, the simplistic stands, the hand blown Co2 glassware, to the naturalistic landscapes, and the modern hanging lighting systems. It's all part of a "look" that separates his aquariums from anyone else (that I have seen). Hanging an overflow box or drilling holes in a $4000.00 aquarium is not an option. 
One Fluval G6 can handle an aquarium up to 160 gallons. I have two of these on a "155 gallon". So biologically, chemically, and mechanically I'm more then set. I understand that flow is important as well and if I do need it then Vortechs it is. ADA sells a little surface skimmer which I might try first. 
As far as a layout is concerned I'm not sold on any style yet. The current Unzan stone video thats floating around looks appealing to me. I don't want to paint the tank nor do I want to put a background on it so Hiding the back wall with a mountain like seen seems like a good idea.


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## prototyp3

Pugman said:


> I guess I'm alone in my perspective here. I view ADA style aquariums as art. Although I've seen better layouts then Amanos tanks, I believe his over all appearance of the aquarium it self it beautiful artwork. The the low iron rimless glass, the simplistic stands, the hand blown Co2 glassware, to the naturalistic landscapes, and the modern hanging lighting systems. It's all part of a "look" that separates his aquariums from anyone else (that I have seen). Hanging an overflow box or drilling holes in a $4000.00 aquarium is not an option.
> One Fluval G6 can handle an aquarium up to 160 gallons. I have two of these on a "155 gallon". So biologically, chemically, and mechanically I'm more then set. I understand that flow is important as well and if I do need it then Vortechs it is. ADA sells a little surface skimmer which I might try first.
> As far as a layout is concerned I'm not sold on any style yet. The current Unzan stone video thats floating around looks appealing to me. I don't want to paint the tank nor do I want to put a background on it so Hiding the back wall with a mountain like seen seems like a good idea.


I agree that ADA makes attractive equipment and aquariums. I've ran 60P, 90P, and 120H setups, down to ADA filters, CO2, lighting, etc. And I'm all for aesthetics being an artist by profession. But having seen both an ADA 180P and custom tanks, the silicone work is pretty even once you go over that 100 gallon barrier. They share the same nicely polished/beveled edges, and clear Starphire glass. Something to keep in mind is the seams on the big ADA tanks aren't nearly as invisible as their smaller tanks. 

This is pure personal preference, but a single low profile overflow is less intrusive than 4 hoses and connected equipment. (Anything hanging on a rimless tank breaks the ultra clean look.) And if you haven't used glass pipes before, they are amazing fast at attracting gunk. They're also tricky to adjust for circulation/aeration given how quickly the water level fluctuates. The intake pipes have killed plenty of fish/shrimp as well, those minimal openings have surprisingly strong suction with a strong canister filter behind them.. 

I also used a Fluval G6 and can say that rating is more telling of the biological filtration capabilities, not the flow. I had it on a 46 gallon tank, worked perfect for that application. Like you said, nothing a vortech can't fix if you need more flow.


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## OverStocked

Even better than overflows.... Drill the tank and use your filters still. 

I like to drill the bottom and use small stand pipes. Done right the risk is no worse than an ordinary filter. 

You can set it up with just 1 in and 1 out with the filters coming together outside the tank. Of 2 and 2. Or 1 and 2. Or anything you want. 

You can drill the bottom or the back. It will look a million times cleaner than Lilly pipes. On day one, Lilly pipes are gorgeous. Months later they are just an eye sore and a pain to clean over and over and over. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## OverStocked

If nothing else, connect the filters and only use 1 in and 1 out so it isn't cluttered with hanging crap. 


Sent from my iPhone 4S


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## Chlorophile

prototyp3 said:


> I agree that ADA makes attractive equipment and aquariums. I've ran 60P, 90P, and 120H setups, down to ADA filters, CO2, lighting, etc. And I'm all for aesthetics being an artist by profession. But having seen both an ADA 180P and custom tanks, the silicone work is pretty even once you go over that 100 gallon barrier. They share the same nicely polished/beveled edges, and clear Starphire glass. Something to keep in mind is the seams on the big ADA tanks aren't nearly as invisible as their smaller tanks.
> 
> This is pure personal preference, but a single low profile overflow is less intrusive than 4 hoses and connected equipment. (Anything hanging on a rimless tank breaks the ultra clean look.) And if you haven't used glass pipes before, they are amazing fast at attracting gunk. They're also tricky to adjust for circulation/aeration given how quickly the water level fluctuates. The intake pipes have killed plenty of fish/shrimp as well, those minimal openings have surprisingly strong suction with a strong canister filter behind them..
> 
> I also used a Fluval G6 and can say that rating is more telling of the biological filtration capabilities, not the flow. I had it on a 46 gallon tank, worked perfect for that application. Like you said, nothing a vortech can't fix if you need more flow.


My glass pipes look spotless for about a month and are insanely easy to clean with the correct spring brush and a simple turn of the quick disconnects. 

But yea, I agree about the rating. 
My eheim 2213 is rated for up to 116 gallons!
I'm using it on a 5 gallon...

I find all the gizmos on the g6 useless, and for the money, the filter is just a pretty box. 
265 gph is nice, combined you have about 500, how many gallons is the tank? 
I'm guessing you have less than 5x turnover which wouldn't be okay with me. 
Too much detritus laying about and not getting in the filter.


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## Pugman

prototyp3 said:


> I agree that ADA makes attractive equipment and aquariums. I've ran 60P, 90P, and 120H setups, down to ADA filters, CO2, lighting, etc. And I'm all for aesthetics being an artist by profession. But having seen both an ADA 180P and custom tanks, the silicone work is pretty even once you go over that 100 gallon barrier. They share the same nicely polished/beveled edges, and clear Starphire glass. Something to keep in mind is the seams on the big ADA tanks aren't nearly as invisible as their smaller tanks.
> 
> This is pure personal preference, but a single low profile overflow is less intrusive than 4 hoses and connected equipment. (Anything hanging on a rimless tank breaks the ultra clean look.) And if you haven't used glass pipes before, they are amazing fast at attracting gunk. They're also tricky to adjust for circulation/aeration given how quickly the water level fluctuates. The intake pipes have killed plenty of fish/shrimp as well, those minimal openings have surprisingly strong suction with a strong canister filter behind them..
> 
> I also used a Fluval G6 and can say that rating is more telling of the biological filtration capabilities, not the flow. I had it on a 46 gallon tank, worked perfect for that application. Like you said, nothing a vortech can't fix if you need more flow.


I too have seen a 180p in person and I didn't really pay attention to the seems. I was awed at the scape inside. I have however studied smaller ADA aquariums and have seen no comparison. I'll have to get a photo of the seems before I purchase the 180P. The price of this thing will set me back quite a bit. One of the main reasons I sold my reef aquarium was because of the poor quality of the seems. That was an All-Glass brand and at the time they were pretty legit. I'm not saying this would be poor quality but I was really attracted to the craftsmanship of smaller ADA aquarium seems. You almost can't tell there is silicone in between the glass.:icon_sad:


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## Pugman

Chlorophile said:


> My glass pipes look spotless for about a month and are insanely easy to clean with the correct spring brush and a simple turn of the quick disconnects.
> 
> But yea, I agree about the rating.
> My eheim 2213 is rated for up to 116 gallons!
> I'm using it on a 5 gallon...
> 
> I find all the gizmos on the g6 useless, and for the money, the filter is just a pretty box.
> 265 gph is nice, combined you have about 500, how many gallons is the tank?
> I'm guessing you have less than 5x turnover which wouldn't be okay with me.
> Too much detritus laying about and not getting in the filter.


The electronics are okay, I like the temp read out and graphing. The flow moniter is pretty neat too. I like the ease of cleaning. The micron sleeves pop out without carrying it over to a sink to open it up. Same thing with the media cartridge. The pretty box is just a bonus.


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## prototyp3

Chlorophile said:


> My glass pipes look spotless for about a month and are insanely easy to clean with the correct spring brush and a simple turn of the quick disconnects.
> 
> But yea, I agree about the rating.
> My eheim 2213 is rated for up to 116 gallons!
> I'm using it on a 5 gallon...
> 
> I find all the gizmos on the g6 useless, and for the money, the filter is just a pretty box.
> 265 gph is nice, combined you have about 500, how many gallons is the tank?
> I'm guessing you have less than 5x turnover which wouldn't be okay with me.
> Too much detritus laying about and not getting in the filter.


But multiply that once a month cleaning by 4 glass pieces. It adds up. I'm not against working on my tank, but the whole glass pipes thing got old quick. Everyone's different though.

I agree that the computer aspect of the G6 was a let down. I did like the cartridge system though, that was great.




Pugman said:


> I too have seen a 180p in person and I didn't really pay attention to the seems. I was awed at the scape inside. I have however studied smaller ADA aquariums and have seen no comparison. I'll have to get a photo of the seems before I purchase the 180P. The price of this thing will set me back quite a bit. One of the main reasons I sold my reef aquarium was because of the poor quality of the seems. That was an All-Glass brand and at the time they were pretty legit. I'm not saying this would be poor quality but I was really attracted to the craftsmanship of smaller ADA aquarium seems. You almost can't tell there is silicone in between the glass.:icon_sad:


Definitely take a look at the seams then, they're quite different from the smaller ones. If you aren't married to the ADA idea, take a look at A.G.E. (http://www.acrylicandglassexhibits.com)
They have a specialty of creating Starphire glass tanks with a PVC bottom. Super lightweight, strong, and resistant to impact. Definitely an advantage when moving, two people can easily move a 180g. Also helpful when you're arranging heavy rocks in awkward spots..
Another builder who has become very popular in the last couple years is Reef Savvy. The owner, Felix, is a great guy to work with.

Just throwing some ideas out there as you can get more for your money. Especially seen as you aren't stuck in "ADA only mode" with the wide range of equipment going into this. Whatever you decide on will be pretty cool, no doubts about that.


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## tbarabash

Whatever you decide I'm sure it'll work. Stoked to see this up.

subbed


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## Chlorophile

Yea this is a very exciting build, I hope you don't take any of what we are saying to discourage you or make you regret your decisions!

It isn't often we see big high budget builds. 
Personally, when I see something so epic I feel almost involved in it and can't help but say my piece for fear of letting someone go down a road that they may not yet know the perils of. 

As prototyp3 said, you may or may not enjoy the maintenance of cleaning glass pipes. 
Personally, they add to the look of the tank, but there is no arguing that a tank with nothing coming in or out of it is definitely clean on entirely different level. 

And that brings me to my next point, the absolute last thing I'd wan't to do would be to add a powerhead to something that is going to be a showpiece in your home. 
If seams, which are something you barely see, are important enough to you that you would spend 4k on a tank, it seems a shame to add a powerhead down the line. 

Those filters should be enough, and I think having 2 outflows and 2 inflows will give you far better flow than if you had a single filter with the same output as the 2 g6's. 

With the correct quick disconnects cleaning 4 pipes shouldn't take long at all and if you do it weekly they will never get so gunked up that you have to spend more than a couple minutes per pipe cleaning them. 


Any idea what kind of style you may go for?


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## Pugman

So I ordered the ADA tank today based on the owner of Aqua Forrest. He said that they have improved the quality of the 180P. The glass is higher quality and the seems are better. It's in a crate in a warehouse so I'm still buying it sight unseen. I asked him about his 180P in the shop and he just runs two canisters. They are Ehiems lol. It's been set up for seven years this way. I got the surface extractor as well. That should be fun to play with. I do appreciate everyone's advice. It's hard to determine who are the experience folks. 

Although this is a pretty extravgent set up I am not rich and the sky is far from my limits. I had to fund this buy selling my reef tank that I have accumulated over seven years. I'm just as excited as anyone would be if they were setting this up.


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## robbowal

well if you decide to go back to reefing you will also have an awsome set up with the equipment you have + a little more. so it looks like the best of both worlds for you.
cant wait to see the tank on a stand. now all you have to do is work out what scape to do (the fun bit) and post lots and lots of pictures.


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## rockwood

Did he happen to say _which_ Ehiem canisters he's using? I'm merely curious...


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## Pugman

rockwood said:


> Did he happen to say _which_ Ehiem canisters he's using? I'm merely curious...


No I didn't ask. He said they produce a little bit more flow. He said they are larger and have more material or room inside. It didn't seem like it was an incredible amount more and I don't need more biological media so I think I'll be fine. Hopefully the stand will be here on Friday. The next challenge will be to get the tank on the stand. I guess I'll need some kind of padding underneath the glass.


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## Pugman

I forgot to mention I have a Oceanic 1/4 hrs chiller. Our summers here get really hot (105). Does anyone else use a chiller?


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## eklikewhoa

IMHO, go with an Eheim 2262/60, Incredible for the price and fluval doesn't hold a dime to it's quality and performance.

Very impressive build thus far and coming from a reef background this should be an amazing set up! Apply almost everything you have learned and used in reefing to planted tank.


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## Ozydego

I have used a g6 on my planted 55gal for 4 months now and I find that by day 3, the filter has lost half of its rated flow, it is easy to clean out the mechanical filter and then put it back in but I do this every 3-4 days to keep the flow rate up... if I go 7 days, the flow is about 1/10th of its original flow. It traps so much stuff that it slows down very fast. The electronics on it for me are the seller, the temp is graphed as well as the flow rate and TDS, which is what I use to schedule my water changes, I watch and when the TDS gets to a certain level, I do a water change.... I could do without the constant filter cleaning though, I compensated by putting a powerhead in the tank as well for day 3 and 4 before I get back to cleaning the mechanical cartridge again....


----------



## Pugman

Ozydego said:


> I have used a g6 on my planted 55gal for 4 months now and I find that by day 3, the filter has lost half of its rated flow, it is easy to clean out the mechanical filter and then put it back in but I do this every 3-4 days to keep the flow rate up... if I go 7 days, the flow is about 1/10th of its original flow. It traps so much stuff that it slows down very fast. The electronics on it for me are the seller, the temp is graphed as well as the flow rate and TDS, which is what I use to schedule my water changes, I watch and when the TDS gets to a certain level, I do a water change.... I could do without the constant filter cleaning though, I compensated by putting a powerhead in the tank as well for day 3 and 4 before I get back to cleaning the mechanical cartridge again....


Most canisters are cooled by water flow. Once the mechanical filter gets clogged water passes right by the motor to keep it cool. I believe Ehiem works this way. Fluval is one of the only ones that slow the flow as the mechanical filters plug up. It uses the electronics to warn you of whats happening. This might be good or bad depending on how you look at it. I too had the same experience with the heavy maintenance issue. If it becomes a problem I'll figure something out. Ehiems are not exactly the easiest thing to maintain either. Like you said It takes but a moment to clean them and in the end, your tank is probably more clean. I've used Ehiem canisters before and frankly I'm not as impressed as everyone here he. I have also used Fluval G6's before and although they are not perfect, I like them. I got a pretty good deal on the G6's so the Ehiem canisters were not that much cheaper.


----------



## jnaz

I am looking forward to this build. Thank god I ran out of room and have nowhere to put a 180P.


----------



## Pugman

jnaz said:


> I am looking forward to this build. Thank god I ran out of room and have nowhere to put a 180P.


Your Personal ADA showroom is incredible. Good to know I'm not the only crazy one to spend that kind of dough. Although I think you got me beat lol.


----------



## youjettisonme

Subscribing to this thread. A new 180p in the Bay Area necessitates that I follow this. Personally, I have no idea why people buy Eheims and Fluvals when you can just buy a SunSun off of Ebay and get better performance at less than half the price (sometimes, 1/3rd the price). When I switched from Eheim Pro3 to SunSun, the difference was simply dramatic. The maintenance is a snap, it's simple to prime, it never leaks, the canister is huge (lots of room for bio-filtration), and where the Eheim slowed down on me, the SunSun flow never does.

Just search "403b" on Ebay. There is even a SunSun pimp club on TPT. I can't see myself buying any other filter going forward.


----------



## Ozydego

I did not know that other filters bypass the mechanical section once it fills up... I do think that is a big plus for cleaning, the maintenance is higher but now that I know the alternative, I am ok with that....


----------



## Jeff5614

youjettisonme said:


> ... There is even a SunSun pimp club on TPT..


Well #&@^ there's a reason to buy one right there!


Everyone thinks their filter is the best for whatever reason. When I used Fluvals I thought they were great. Now that I have an Eheim I swear by it. I also loved the old Dynaflo's and Supreme AquaKings that I had 30 years ago. Just get what fits your budget and sounds good to you. Aside from the occasional lemon they probably all do about the same job.

For the price of an ADA 180p I think I'd just go with a Superjet ES-2400 for another $1400, seriously, no sarcasm intended.


----------



## youjettisonme

Jeff5614 said:


> Well #&@^ there's a reason to buy one right there!
> 
> 
> Everyone thinks their filter is the best for whatever reason. When I used Fluvals I thought they were great. Now that I have an Eheim I swear by it. I also loved the old Dynaflo's and Supreme AquaKings that I had 30 years ago. Just get what fits your budget and sounds good to you. Aside from the occasional lemon they probably all do about the same job.
> 
> For the price of an ADA 180p I think I'd just go with a Superjet ES-2400 for another $1400, seriously, no sarcasm intended.


Hey, thanks for the sarcasm! After trying half a dozen Eheims (even the high-end ones) as well as Fluvals, the SunSuns really are just better. That's not just my opinion. I never once thought my Eheim was "the best around". Let's try to limit the snottiness, eh? We're all in this together.


----------



## prototyp3

youjettisonme said:


> Hey, thanks for the sarcasm! After trying half a dozen Eheims (even the high-end ones) as well as Fluvals, the SunSuns really are just better. That's not just my opinion. I never once thought my Eheim was "the best around". Let's try to limit the snottiness, eh? We're all in this together.


Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's like recommending someone put Walmart stickers on a brand new Ferrari.

Admittedly I haven't used a SunSun filter, but it looks cheap from the pictures. That's saying a lot as canisters generally are cheap feeling to begin with. I'm not sure why you'd recommend that model, as it doesn't seem to offer any advantages over the G6 filters he already owns. (except built in UV)


----------



## Jeff5614

youjettisonme said:


> Hey, thanks for the sarcasm! After trying half a dozen Eheims (even the high-end ones) as well as Fluvals, the SunSuns really are just better. That's not just my opinion. I never once thought my Eheim was "the best around". Let's try to limit the snottiness, eh? We're all in this together.


There was no snottiness intended. Just a bit of joking, afterall, you have to admit that being able to join a forum "pimp club" isn't much of a convincing reason to buy a filter.


----------



## audioaficionado

Where do you get SunSun replacement parts?


----------



## Jeff5614

audioaficionado said:


> Where do you get SunSun replacement parts?


nevermind...


----------



## youjettisonme

prototyp3 said:


> Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's like recommending someone put Walmart stickers on a brand new Ferrari.
> 
> Admittedly I haven't used a SunSun filter, but it looks cheap from the pictures. That's saying a lot as canisters generally are cheap feeling to begin with. I'm not sure why you'd recommend that model, as it doesn't seem to offer any advantages over the G6 filters he already owns. (except built in UV)


The SunSun looks cheaper than any name brand. No doubt about that. Then again, I keep mine in the cabinet. The main advantage the SunSun (or however it's been rebranded) has is its price tag - $86 shipped. Although buying the "Ferrari" product is nice (Hey, I own 5 ADA tanks), sometimes even Ferrari collectors look for shortcuts. It's been my experience, that of my local club, and that of all the people that have posted in the 28 pages of the SunSun thread that there just might be something to this _cheap _filter. 



Jeff5614 said:


> There was no snottiness intended. Just a bit of joking, afterall, you have to admit that being able to join a forum "pimp club" isn't much of a convincing reason to buy a filter.


If that were the only reason to buy a filter, you'd be making a great point. However, that was actually the only tongue-in-cheek reason to buy this filter that was present in my post. The only relevant part is that your brethren, the denizens of TPT, have vetted this filter to some degree over the last couple of years, and the results are pretty positive.



audioaficionado said:


> Where do you get SunSun replacement parts?


It costs $86 complete. Your replacement _parts _is a new filter. 



Jeff5614 said:


> nevermind...


----------



## Jeff5614

youjettisonme said:


> ... However, that was actually the only tongue-in-cheek reason to buy this filter... .


Tongue in cheek was my response to the comment.


----------



## Pugman

audioaficionado said:


> Where do you get SunSun replacement parts?


China! LOL. It's pretty funny how so many people are dead set on not using the G6's. It would be different if they used them and didn't like them but I think one person who responded to this thread has one. It sounds like he likes it. It's a filter designed by one of the oldest aquarium companies around. German at that. Ehiem would be my second choice. German as well so it's gotta be good:icon_lol:. There is no "pimp club" for the Fluval G6's because they come pimped out. If the SunSun canister is of the same quality as there "reef pumps" then no thanks. Most of the time you get what you pay for.


----------



## rockwood

Pugman said:


> China! LOL. It's pretty funny how so many people are dead set on not using the G6's. It would be different if they used them and didn't like them but I think one person who responded to this thread has one. It sounds like he likes it. It's a filter designed by one of the oldest aquarium companies around. German at that. Ehiem would be my second choice. German as well so it's gotta be good:icon_lol:. There is no "pimp club" for the Fluval G6's because they come pimped out. If the SunSun canister is of the same quality as there "reef pumps" then no thanks. Most of the time you get what you pay for.



I think filters are one of those things that everyone has their favorite and they'll try to push that onto everyone else. I'll admit, I haven't used a filter other than an Ehiem. I considered getting an FX5 at one point but the statements by some saying the flow slowed dramatically with media turned me away. 

I think the G series is cool. The monitoring is something that I wouldn't mind having in my own aquarium. However, the maintenance intervals is what would get me. I'm not fond of something using "canisters" for my media. I know, that's all personal preference but it is what it is. My main concern in my previous post is for flow rate, however my tanks best most algae free point I had less turn over than what you're discussing now. Most success boils down to your substrate, CO2, dosing regimen and lighting. Flow IME has little to do with it. 

For me I'd want more media capacity than the G6. I want to have to mess with my filters 2-3x a year, no more. And I want it to have a ton of bio media as that helps with stability. Hence why I'm going with the 5 gallon bucket filter Ehiem calls the 2262.

Either way, follow the principles of light, CO2 and ferts and this will be a fantastic project. Everything else is just "nice to have".


----------



## youjettisonme

Jeff5614 said:


> Tongue in cheek was my response to the comment.


Sorry then. Tone over email, posts, blah, blah. Maybe I am taking my bad work meeting out on internet strangers then. My bad.


----------



## youjettisonme

Pugman said:


> China! LOL. It's pretty funny how so many people are dead set on not using the G6's. It would be different if they used them and didn't like them but I think one person who responded to this thread has one. It sounds like he likes it. It's a filter designed by one of the oldest aquarium companies around. German at that. Ehiem would be my second choice. German as well so it's gotta be good:icon_lol:. There is no "pimp club" for the Fluval G6's because they come pimped out. If the SunSun canister is of the same quality as there "reef pumps" then no thanks. Most of the time you get what you pay for.


Why "China, LOL"? China can put out some good merchandise. With as much as I paid for my Eheim Pro3, it would have been nice had the flow not decreased on me only 6 months in. It also would have been nice if it was simple to prime (It wasn't). There is a "pimp club" for SunSun specifically because there was a product found that bucks the trend. Cheap AND functional. It's worth posting about. If you're going to pay whatever god-forsaken amount you paid for a G6 then I should hope you would like it.

Also, I am pretty confident that everyone has heard the expression/cliche, "you get what you paid for.".


----------



## oldpunk78

Pugman said:


> I forgot to mention I have a Oceanic 1/4 hrs chiller. Our summers here get really hot (105). Does anyone else use a chiller?


Screw the chiller. Just get some Discus. Awesome start to a planted tank I must say.

If your house stays around 78-80 you should be fine. Your lights won't raise the tank temp as long as you hang them fairly high. If you keep your house on the hot side then, ya hook up the chiller.

I feel like I must comment on your co2 situation. If your plan is to stick with a low flow filtration system and your going to use ceramic diffusers, you are going to have dead spots. 

You should explore some other ways of getting co2 into the water column. I would strongly recommend looking into a fractioning impeller pump or perhaps a couple of in-line atomizers. 

Good luck with your new tank!


----------



## Chlorophile

I'd go with an inline atomizer on each filter.


----------



## Pugman

youjettisonme said:


> Why "China, LOL"? China can put out some good merchandise. With as much as I paid for my Eheim Pro3, it would have been nice had the flow not decreased on me only 6 months in. It also would have been nice if it was simple to prime (It wasn't). There is a "pimp club" for SunSun specifically because there was a product found that bucks the trend. Cheap AND functional. It's worth posting about. If you're going to pay whatever god-forsaken amount you paid for a G6 then I should hope you would like it.
> 
> Also, I am pretty confident that everyone has heard the expression/cliche, "you get what you paid for.".


Jez dude! That's why I put the lol in there because I was joking. I know China makes good merchandise 95% of the things I own we're made in China. Also pimp club statement was a joke as well. I'm sure that filter works well for you and your club as it would on my new tank. I didn't put too much energy into researching canister value. I liked my experience with the G6 and I went for It. Thank you for informing me about the SunSun as they might come in handy for a future project. I know you and everyone else has heard the term "you get what you pay for". I wasn't informing you but only expressing my opinion. The SunSun and the G6 will both get the job done. In my opinion I think the extra god forsaken price is worth it. Therefore " I got what I paid for".:smile:

Although I quoted just you I was talking to a few previous posts as well. I can't figure out the multi quote thing yet. So I see how you might of taken ofence.


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## jkan0228

So are you going to add any powerheads? Or just add a SunSun? The mutiquote is the button right of "quote", you click ones you want to quote and then press "quote" for the last one. Do you have a full list of the equipment/hardware you will be using?


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## prototyp3

jkan0228 said:


> Or just add a SunSun?


----------



## jkan0228

prototyp3 said:


>


Well he said:



Pugman said:


> The SunSun and the G6 will both get the job done.


So are you adding a SunSun or just saying the SunSun would get the job done if you were to go that route?


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## Pugman

jkan0228 said:


> Well he said:
> 
> 
> 
> So are you adding a SunSun or just saying the SunSun would get the job done if you were to go that route?


That's awesome. I think I'll ditch the G6s and buy Six SunSuns and one of each of the Ehiems recommended, and all the Vortechs and then everyone will be happy.


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## Daximus

I think you're build is coming along splendidly. I'm excited to see the lights and such. When will we get to see this thing! :biggrin:


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## zchauvin

Pugman said:


> That's awesome. I think I'll ditch the G6s and buy Six SunSuns and one of each of the Ehiems recommended, and all the Vortechs and then everyone will be happy.


Lol, man just get some filters.. In the end its your money and your setup simple as that.


----------



## jkan0228

Pugman said:


> That's awesome. I think I'll ditch the G6s and buy Six SunSuns and one of each of the Ehiems recommended, and all the Vortechs and then everyone will be happy.


I think that was sarcasm but you could go with like 2-3 Eheim 2262's and be set to go... :hihi:


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## robbowal

Something tells me you have had enough of suggestions on filtration and powerheads.:icon_lol:

lets hope the tank/stand arrives soon so you can get stuck in to the build.
have you found a supplier for the black lava rock yet or have you decided to try something else? as you have not mentioned much about the scape plans.


----------



## Pugman

jkan0228 said:


> I think that was sarcasm but you could go with like 2-3 Eheim 2262's and be set to go... :hihi:






robbowal said:


> Something tells me you have had enough of suggestions on filtration and powerheads.:icon_lol:
> 
> lets hope the tank/stand arrives soon so you can get stuck in to the build.
> Ahave you found a supplier for the black lava rock yet or have you decided to try something else? as you have not mentioned much about the scape plans.


Tank shipped today to arrive tomorrow. However the stand is delayed 3-4 days. He said its put together he just has to paint it. I'll have to leave it in its crate. I found a hook up with the lava. That should be here on Monday. I'll be shaping the lava rocks to look like a mountains. Any suggestions on what to use to carve lava rocks would be helpful. I'm going to troll around the aqua scape section and see if I can pin point some ideas.


----------



## robbowal

If you must carve it i would get some regular lava rock and try a hammer and chisel to see how it behaves but i think it may come down to careful arrangment of what you have rather than take a hammer to it and end up with dust.


----------



## OverStocked

I think that if you have 3-5x flow on your tank it should be sufficient. Much like lighting, it doesn't go up in a straight pattern. 10x on a 10g tank does not equal 10x on a 150 gallon tank. 

That being said, very few people report problems from too MUCH flow. if you plants stay upright and your fish aren't pressed against the glass, it should be fine. 

The G6's are really sexy filters. If that is what you're set on, I say go for it and adjust as needed. If you have a more open tank I have little doubt it will be sufficient. 

My advise about drilling was more on the aesthetics. If you aren't comfortable drilling your used-car priced tank(and really who can blame you!) that is your decision and I don't think anyone else should really have any personal investment in it. the people who are saying you "must" have more flow, etc etc likely haven't ever used a g6, or owned a larger tank. So just go as you please and learn from your mistakes. 

You sound much like me and even if you are making a mistake(and I don't think you really are) you won't learn till you do it yourself. I wouldn't add any powerheads or other filters until you've decided you need them.


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## Ozydego

Does a moderator have to get involved here... I think the subject has been beaten to death here, GET OVER IT! I just cannot wait to see the next round of pics!


----------



## jkan0228

Ozydego said:


> Does a moderator have to get involved here... I think the subject has been beaten to death here, GET OVER IT! I just cannot wait to see the next round of pics!


Overstocked isnt a moderator... Nor has a moderator commented on this thread...


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## zchauvin

jkan0228 said:


> Overstocked isnt a moderator... Nor has a moderator commented on this thread...


Lol he just forgot his question mark after his question ;-)

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## Uptown193

Nice project. Any updated pics yet?

I have a Fluval G3 filter for my ADA 60p and I love it. Maintenance is wonderful and as long as I keep the mechanical pre-filter cleaned (Rinsed every 2 weeks) water flow is perfect.

Good luck with project. I love people who spend money of excellent equipment.


----------



## Pugman

Uptown193 said:


> Nice project. Any updated pics yet?
> 
> I have a Fluval G3 filter for my ADA 60p and I love it. Maintenance is wonderful and as long as I keep the mechanical pre-filter cleaned (Rinsed every 2 weeks) water flow is perfect.
> 
> Good luck with project. I love people who spend money of excellent equipment.


Thank you. Another satisfied customer. It would be one thing if a bunch of users ditched there G's for something else but so far everyone I researched likes them. I have contacted Hagen to get the "empty flow rate" so at least the haters here can compare apples to apples.

I had a pretty cool reef tank with all the bells and whistles for the last seven years and it does make a difference running quality equipment. I also have had run reef tanks longer with cheap equipment. If the tank shows up today I'll take some pics of the seems so everyone can see the quality or lack of quality which ever way it turns out.

As far as layouts go, what are my choices? Iwagami or jungle? One thing I do know is I want a big tank with tiny tiny life inside. All flora will have the smallest of leaves and I was thinking of Celestial pearl danios. It's important to me to keep it in scale.


----------



## OverStocked

You have the filters in hand, right? You should just do an empty flow rate test. Get two buckets, measure how much water you put in, figure out how long it takes to pump from one bucket to another. Easy peasy. 

I honestly think you'll prob be fine, at least for now. It sounds like an open-ish tank would compliment the CPD's and "small" feel of the tank.


----------



## frrok

Pugman said:


> Tank shipped today to arrive tomorrow. However the stand is delayed 3-4 days. He said its put together he just has to paint it. I'll have to leave it in its crate. I found a hook up with the lava. That should be here on Monday. I'll be shaping the lava rocks to look like a mountains. Any suggestions on what to use to carve lava rocks would be helpful. I'm going to troll around the aqua scape section and see if I can pin point some ideas.


Do tell! I've been looking for this lava rock. In black. Very tough to find in the right size


----------



## prototyp3

Pugman said:


> Thank you. Another satisfied customer. It would be one thing if a bunch of users ditched there G's for something else but so far everyone I researched likes them. I have contacted Hagen to get the "empty flow rate" so at least the haters here can compare apples to apples.


Not sure I'm seeing any haters here. I see most people offering helpful advice. 

To keep things in perspective, he's a satisfied customer using a G6 on a 17 gallon tank. I used mine on a 46 gallon, and I felt it was just ok. I replaced the G6 with an ADA superjet 1200 and Eheim 3e 2078 when I went larger. 
You're talking about a 180 gallon tank here. Ignoring flow for a minute, the actual capacity of the filter is pretty tiny. Each one holds 4 liters of media. Just for comparison, ADA recommends at least 24 liters for the 180P. You can never have too much media.


Can't wait to see those new and improved seams. That thing is going to be a beast to move, make sure you have reliable help on hand. I've seen too many rimless tanks chipped from those "wait, put it down!" moments.


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## youjettisonme

Pugman said:


> Thank you. Another satisfied customer. It would be one thing if a bunch of users ditched there G's for something else but so far everyone I researched likes them. I have contacted Hagen to get the "empty flow rate" so at least the haters here can compare apples to apples.
> 
> I had a pretty cool reef tank with all the bells and whistles for the last seven years and it does make a difference running quality equipment. I also have had run reef tanks longer with cheap equipment. If the tank shows up today I'll take some pics of the seems so everyone can see the quality or lack of quality which ever way it turns out.
> 
> As far as layouts go, what are my choices? Iwagami or jungle? One thing I do know is I want a big tank with tiny tiny life inside. All flora will have the smallest of leaves and I was thinking of Celestial pearl danios. It's important to me to keep it in scale.


I love the G6s. Actually, that was on my final two list when I was purchasing my last filter. I only went with the other option because of price. If money were no object, I'd be sporting the G6. Awesome filter, no doubt. Looking forward to where you tank goes...


----------



## Pugman

prototyp3 said:


> Not sure I'm seeing any haters here. I see most people offering helpful advice.
> 
> To keep things in perspective, he's a satisfied customer using a G6 on a 17 gallon tank. I used mine on a 46 gallon, and I felt it was just ok. I replaced the G6 with an ADA superjet 1200 and Eheim 3e 2078 when I went larger.
> You're talking about a 180 gallon tank here. Ignoring flow for a minute, the actual capacity of the filter is pretty tiny. Each one holds 4 liters of media. Just for comparison, ADA recommends at least 24 liters for the 180P. You can never have too much media.
> 
> 
> Can't wait to see those new and improved seams. That thing is going to be a beast to move, make sure you have reliable help on hand. I've seen too many rimless tanks chipped from those "wait, put it down!" moments.


I was sort of kidding about the haters comment. I really do appreciate everyone's input.

Interesting about what ADA recommends for Media. According to Hagen I'll have enough for a 320 gallon. I'm sure it depends on who's media you are using. I think the lava rock will have enough surface area to culture bacteria to keep the fish alive by itself.

Keeping it in real perspective he had a *G3* on a 17 gallon.:icon_wink


----------



## audioaficionado

Tom Barr's thread on his 120 rimless used an excellent dimmable T5 light fixture you might want to consider since you're going top drawer with this project.



audioaficionado said:


> Looks like you have ATI 48" 8x54W Dimmable SunPower T5 High-Output Fixture w/ Controller
> as it has 8 lamps and that same blue rectangle near the corner.
> 
> Who did you get it through?
> 
> Very nice unit and totally worth the investment for a rimless tank of this caliber.


----------



## oldpunk78

audioaficionado said:


> Tom Barr's thread on his 120 rimless used an excellent dimmable T5 light fixture you might want to consider since you're going top drawer with this project.


Those ecotech radions are about $750 a pop(He said he's using 3). Right now they own the top spot for a light fixture for fish tanks.


----------



## zchauvin

oldpunk78 said:


> Those ecotech radions are about $750 a pop(He said he's using 3). Right now they own the top spot for a light fixture for fish tanks.


+1

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## prototyp3

Pugman said:


> Interesting about what ADA recommends for Media. According to Hagen I'll have enough for a 320 gallon.


Well in that case.. SunSun says their filters would be enough for a 350 gallon.

:biggrin:


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## zchauvin

prototyp3 said:


> Well in that case.. SunSun says their filters would be enough for a 350 gallon.
> 
> :biggrin:


I've got a hob rated for 235g. I think it suites his application perfectly.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## audioaficionado

oldpunk78 said:


> Those ecotech radions are about $750 a pop(He said he's using 3). Right now they own the top spot for a light fixture for fish tanks.


Ecotech Radions may cost more, but Tom says his dimmable ATI fixture is excellent and the controller's dimming feature mimics the day from sunrise to sunset. Also as you can see from the picture I posted above, there is very little light spill into the room, he's only running it at half power and he's getting stunning results. Here's the link for the one Tom Barr has and the place he got it from. A T5 advantage is more color selection than LEDs.
http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/ATI-3317.html
A 180P would need two 36" fixtures obviously.

However if the Eco Tech Radions have already been purchased then LED lighting works well too. At the purchase price of either system, power savings return on investment will exceed a decade or two.

It's 3 of one or 2 of the other LOL.


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## oldpunk78

audioaficionado said:


> Ecotech Radions may cost more, but Tom says his dimmable ATI fixture is excellent and the controller's dimming feature mimics the day from sunrise to sunset. Also as you can see from the picture I posted above, there is very little light spill into the room, he's only running it at half power and he's getting stunning results. Here's the link for the one Tom Barr has and the place he got it from. A T5 advantage is more color selection than LEDs.
> http://premiumaquatics.com/aquatic-supplies/ATI-3317.html
> A 180P would need two 36" fixtures obviously.
> 
> However if the Eco Tech Radions have already been purchased then LED lighting works well too. At the purchase price of either system, power savings return on investment will exceed a decade or two.
> 
> It's 3 of one or 2 of the other LOL.


Oh, I wasn't mocking ATI. They are awesome fixtures. They also probably (depending on bulb choice) are able to produce a better light spectrum. 

Is this tank going in a home or store? If it's going in your fish store, I will probably want to see it in person. (In Chico from time to time...)


----------



## Pugman

audioaficionado said:


> Tom Barr's thread on his 120 rimless used an excellent dimmable T5 light fixture you might want to consider since you're going top drawer with this project.


That's a bad ass tank. He's really got a gift for aquascaping. ATI makes great bulbs and fixtures. I've done the T5 thing and florescent bulbs are my least favorite. From what I've researched florescent bulbs are not really suposed to be dimmed. I know they sell dimmable ballast and controllers but I've heard they are hard on the bulbs. From what I understand they can't start at 0% more like 10 or 20%. Maybe ATI has worked around this.

I did already purchase three Radions light fixtures. They can put out as much as a 250 Metal Halide. There coverage is approximately a 2'X2' area. I'm good as far as light goes.


----------



## Pugman

oldpunk78 said:


> Oh, I wasn't mocking ATI. They are awesome fixtures. They also probably (depending on bulb choice) are able to produce a better light spectrum.
> 
> Is this tank going in a home or store? If it's going in your fish store, I will probably want to see it in person. (In Chico from time to time...)


It's in my home. You can still check it out though.


----------



## robbowal

Pugman said:


> That's a bad ass tank. He's really got a gift for aquascaping. ATI makes great bulbs and fixtures. I've done the T5 thing and florescent bulbs are my least favorite. From what I've researched florescent bulbs are not really suposed to be dimmed. I know they sell dimmable ballast and controllers but I've heard they are hard on the bulbs. From what I understand they can't start at 0% more like 10 or 20%. Maybe ATI has worked around this.
> 
> I did already purchase three Radions light fixtures. They can put out as much as a 250 Metal Halide. There coverage is approximately a 2'X2' area. I'm good as far as light goes.


The radions can be programmed to mimic any commercially avialable flourecent bulb as far as spectrum is concerned. They will also do sunrise sunset and passing cloud cover, storms Etc. 
And i wish i could buy them at their US price and not the UK price which is around £600 because they would be top of my list for lights (i do love my gadgets)


----------



## Pugman

More pics after the break


----------



## jkan0228

BOOOOOOOOOOO 

Take that thing apart! More pics nowwwwwwww :biggrin:


----------



## Da Plant Man

jkan0228 said:


> BOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> Take that thing apart! More pics nowwwwwwww :biggrin:


I concur.


----------



## robbowal

ladies and gentlemen please take your seats the show is about to begin!


----------



## Pugman

sorry but if you recall the stand is delayed at least till Monday:icon_frow this bad boy is going to stay in my truck until the stand arrives. I'm dreading lifting this. Here a shot of the seem taken with an iPhone.


----------



## jkan0228

Sexy beast...


----------



## robbowal

unadulterated aquatic p*&n


----------



## Daximus

Damn!


----------



## rockwood

Holy crap, is that 1.5" thick?


----------



## Pugman

rockwood said:


> Holy crap, is that 1.5" thick?


It's a little over 1/2" thick. The trucking company said it was 350 lbs. a little lighter then I thought. Still pretty heavy tho.


----------



## zchauvin

Like carrying an icebox, very fragile one at that. Phew, man I'm nervous for you 

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## rockwood

Yeah, 350 is going to need 2-3 solid strength people moving it around, especially if you have any stairs/tight turns to deal with. 

BTW just a suggestion, you might look into trying to rent some of those glass handles from somewhere when you move. It will help with your grip strength so you don't have to try and hold onto the bottom with an open grip.


----------



## robbowal

rockwood said:


> Yeah, 350 is going to need 2-3 solid strength people moving it around, especially if you have any stairs/tight turns to deal with.
> 
> BTW just a suggestion, you might look into trying to rent some of those glass handles from somewhere when you move. It will help with your grip strength so you don't have to try and hold onto the bottom with an open grip.


For the glass handles try your local glazer they should have the three cup ones


----------



## oldpunk78

Those are the biggest beveled edges I've ever seen, lol.


----------



## prototyp3

rockwood said:


> BTW just a suggestion, you might look into trying to rent some of those glass handles from somewhere when you move. It will help with your grip strength so you don't have to try and hold onto the bottom with an open grip.


+1

Renting those for a day is a great investment. It's just a million times easier to manage with those grips. It's awfully hard to put down 350lbs carefully when your fingers are underneath. That's where those evil chips are born.

---

I hope all that green tint disappears when it's out of the box and allowed to get some breathing room.


----------



## audioaficionado

Even low iron glass has a light green color on edge. Regular glass would be almost opaque very dark green.


----------



## Pugman

I got this on a whim. It takes away from the clean look but I kind of like it. I don't know if I'll leave it in there all the time but is should take care of the protien layer on the surface. It looks very well built and it's really heavy.


----------



## audioaficionado

It shouldn't look bad in a back corner opposite of the return line so it will push any surface film over to the ADA skimmer.


----------



## bonkerx02

amazing ! dreammm !


----------



## Capsaicin_MFK

I would run that skimmer all the time if I bought one. I totally understand not wanting to move a large tank without having a stand ready.

How many ADA stickers are on it?


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Nice looking skimmer. ADA sure knows how to make sweet looking gear.


----------



## Pugman

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> I would run that skimmer all the time if I bought one. I totally understand not wanting to move a large tank without having a stand ready.
> 
> How many ADA stickers are on it?


I don't know yet but I'll post a bunch of pics after I open it and put it on the stand.


----------



## Uptown193

I love receiving new toys. 

Look like someone is going to have an exciting week and weekend this week ;-)

P.S. Please use a nice 14mp+ digital camera for the initial pics of the tank and stand.


----------



## Pugman

Uptown193 said:


> P.S. Please use a nice 14mp+ digital camera for the initial pics of the tank and stand.


I've been using an iPnone 4 because of the ease of use. I'll bust out the SLR but it's far from 14MP. I doubt this site will allow such a large file anyways. I'll do my best.

The lava rock guy did come through. I got all the pieces that he had and I sent him back for larger ones. I want 2'+. If you can't tell most of these pieces are basket ball size.


----------



## Uptown193

Yea I use my iphone 4 also. The next phone I get will be a 12mp cam so it will be perfect for quick shot but the iphone 4 is not to shabby either.

Nice Lava rocks.


----------



## antbug

Might be worth a drive for you...

http://www.cascaderockinc.com/page6.php?view=preview&category=2&image=89


----------



## Pugman

antbug said:


> Might be worth a drive for you...
> 
> http://www.cascaderockinc.com/page6.php?view=preview&category=2&image=89


thanks for the tip. I called them up and they said they only have two head size pieces. Which apparently is the size of two human heads. It's kind of the same as the ones I have. The same guy is bringing me 2 ft pieces next Friday. Just a quick update on the stand. I should take possession of it on Monday. So it took a little over a month to complete.:icon_neut


----------



## grogan

This is going to be amazing brother. Hmmm 1/2 thick..I wonder if its strong enough to christen it with a bottle of champagne lol.


----------



## aXio

I want that surface skimmer!


----------



## ua hua

I just read through this whole thread and this is going to be very nice. I love how people try to live vicariously through you by telling you what equipment to use. By the sounds of your past with reef tanks I'm sure you know by now what equipment will and will not work for your needs. After all this is your tank and you are the one paying for it so you use whatever you want. I can't wait to see this setup and running. Keep them pictures coming so the rest of us can live vicariously through you and your awesome setup.


----------



## plantbrain

oldpunk78 said:


> Those ecotech radions are about $750 a pop(He said he's using 3). Right now they own the top spot for a light fixture for fish tanks.


I was disappointed with them when I saw some, great for reefs, not so great for FW. The ATI gave much better user functions and light spread, and I use less energy than even a custom designed light system specific to FW.

But........you do get the shimmer with the LED's. 

Sort of a done deal now for the OP. 

I like wet drys. Have yet to meet a canister filter I liked. Folks discuss media, I have far more and consistently maintain higher O2 levels in every tank that has one by 1-2ppm. That's about 15-25% more O2.


As far as scaping with the Lava: Fissidens would look good, and keep with the tiny theme. This can be done by taking a good sized hand ful, tossing in a blender for 5 second and then use a cheap paint brush on the Lava rock. 
With a Dry start method, and keeping the rock moist and misted once a day, after 2 weeks the rocks will have a very nice furry Fissidens coating.

HC might be a good weed for you in the lower/front foreground or Gloss.
Both do very well with the dry start method also.

While the tank is doing the dry start, you can run the filters with biomedia only in a bucket with some Ammonia, after 2-3 weeks, they should be pretty well cycled and primed. Also, the soil/root system will also be cycling during the dry start method. 

Then you fill after the HC has filled in nicely.

Filter is cycled, the soil is, the plants are well attached and grown in.
Then do 2x a week water changes, about 50%.
Dose after water changes.

Dial lighting to about 50 umol for the lower parts of the tank. Make sure it is very even and no hot spotting, LED's are bad about this.


----------



## houseofcards

ua hua said:


> I just read through this whole thread and this is going to be very nice. I love how people try to live vicariously through you by telling you what equipment to use. By the sounds of your past with reef tanks I'm sure you know by now what equipment will and will not work for your needs. After all this is your tank and you are the one paying for it so you use whatever you want. I can't wait to see this setup and running. Keep them pictures coming so the rest of us can live vicariously through you and your awesome setup.


Agree, there's always going to be some trial n error, but you'll figure it out. There is a large variance on what works and it's usually tied into how well you maintain your tank and adjusting different things. BTW I wouldn't worry to much about your filters, There are successful planted tanks that are running 1x turnover and other's that are running 20x. I've maintained pretty good size setups with 2x turnover for years and that's off the manufacturer specs.


----------



## Pugman

Got the stand and as I expected it turned out great. It's exactly what I was looking for. I really like ADA's gray industrial look and most of the pictures I've seen are in public industrial like buildings. My house however is not so "industrial like". Towards the end I decided to change the color to match more of my furniture.


----------



## zchauvin

you ordered that from a cabinet shop? May I ask how much it ran?


----------



## Ozydego

now this post is gonna get even more fun with the build back in full swing!


----------



## Pugman

zchauvin said:


> you ordered that from a cabinet shop? May I ask how much it ran?


I think it was around 890. The guy was a wood worker but not a cabinet builder. He does some amazing wood carving.


----------



## zchauvin

Alright, not bad though... Roughly 5-600 less than Ada

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


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## Pugman

If an ADA stand was an option I might of chosen that but it wasn't. I just put the tank on the stand and all went well. That was one heavy s.o.b. I can't imagine lifting Mr' Barr's 3/4" one. No wonder he wants to sell it. I told my wife that we are never moving. It looks good. Pics in a bit.:icon_smil


----------



## zchauvin

Pugman said:


> If an ADA stand was an option I might of chosen that but it wasn't. I just put the tank on the stand and all went well. That was one heavy s.o.b. I can't imagine lifting Mr' Barr's 3/4" one. No wonder he wants to sell it. I told my wife that we are never moving. It looks good. Pics in a bit.:icon_smil


Awesome !!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk


----------



## Pugman

At last


----------



## Daximus

God that thing looks stellar! So jealous.


----------



## GMYukonon24s

Ya thats nice. Can't wait till its filled.


----------



## Centromochlus

Wowowowowowowowowow. That tank is stunning, and it's not even filled yet!


----------



## audioaficionado

Very well placed and thought out. I love the school of fish on the wall above the tank.


----------



## Pugman

Thanks for the compliments. I must of stared at this tank for hours last night. I'm pretty excited to get this going.


----------



## speedie408

Can you say ENVY?


----------



## prototyp3

Great choice on the stand color. That definitely works better than the grey.
Have you started any dry runs at possible stone scapes?

Is this one using the high clarity glass?


----------



## houseofcards

Looks real good? Was the stand built by just a local cabinet guy?


----------



## manualfocus

Sweet baby Jesus.. must stop drooling.. :eek5:


----------



## Pugman

speedie408 said:


> Can you say ENVY?


I don't know dude your shrimp collection is pretty incredible, I'm a bit envious of you. We'll be talking soon:icon_smil



prototyp3 said:


> Great choice on the stand color. That definitely works better than the grey.
> Have you started any dry runs at possible stone scapes?
> 
> Is this one using the high clarity glass?


Thanks. I started flattening the bottoms of the lava. I thought it would be a lot easier but this rock is pretty dense in some places. I'm using a diamond blade. What I have done so far looks great. It is 'high clarity" glass. 



houseofcards said:


> Looks real good? Was the stand built by just a local cabinet guy?


No it was built by a wood carving artist.



manualfocus said:


> Sweet baby Jesus.. must stop drooling.. :eek5:


You and me both.:icon_lol:


----------



## robbowal

i have gotta say it looks like it grew there perfect placement (nice touch with the fish on the wall above) now seeing the location i understand your need for a clean look.
now the fun can really start.


----------



## oldpunk78

My God man! So awesome!! 

(Weird... It has the old ADA sticker)


----------



## prototyp3

oldpunk78 said:


> My God man! So awesome!!
> 
> (Weird... It has the old ADA sticker)


That's one of the reasons I asked about the glass. Being that they sell very few 180P tanks, it stands to reason they might have older inventory on hand.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> If an ADA stand was an option I might of chosen that but it wasn't. I just put the tank on the stand and all went well. That was one heavy s.o.b. I can't imagine lifting Mr' Barr's 3/4" one. No wonder he wants to sell it. I told my wife that we are never moving. It looks good. Pics in a bit.:icon_smil


Moving them suck, your life involved never having any stairs, staying in the same house till you die etc.

What lighting did you decide upon?

I keep a set of 4 suction disc, the high grade ones just in case.


----------



## PhillCA

I want to be bury in a 180P when i die, probably cheaper than a coffin.:angel:


----------



## Ptjameso

:hihi:Lmao

Pug I felt like there was a chorus of angels singing when I finally saw the setup! Digging the thread...this is gonna be awesome!!!!!:biggrin:


----------



## oldpunk78

plantbrain said:


> Moving them suck, your life involved never having any stairs, staying in the same house till you die etc.
> 
> What lighting did you decide upon?
> 
> I keep a set of 4 suction disc, the high grade ones just in case.


I think he has some radions.


----------



## Pugman

I did get some Radions. I was bending some pipe this weekend and made this.It was tricky to stuff the cords into the pipe but worth the extra effort. Special thanks to my two brothers for there help.


----------



## Couesfanatic

Dude, I am so jealous., keep this updated. I will be following this.


----------



## oldpunk78

Lol man... ok, remember this is a planted tank - turn the blue down. Haha

You're committed to taking a video of the thunder storm features after you get it all set up and planted. (just thought I'd let you know)


----------



## Pugman

oldpunk78 said:


> Lol man... ok, remember this is a planted tank - turn the blue down. Haha
> 
> You're committed to taking a video of the thunder storm features after you get it all set up and planted. (just thought I'd let you know)


I had it on the 5K setting and I hit some buttons trying to dim it down to take a better picture. I'm still figuring the settings out. I'll post a video when I get it all squared away.


----------



## radioman

Every time I see the word radions I keep thinking someone is mentioning me. Anyways this is going to be amazing!! Those fish above the tank make me nervous. I would have nightmares of them falling and breaking the tank.


----------



## audioaficionado

Pugman said:


> I had it on the 5K setting and I hit some buttons trying to dim it down to take a better picture. I'm still figuring the settings out. I'll post a video when I get it all squared away.


Try the white balance.


----------



## jkan0228

Absolutely superb. 

You probably already mentioned this but what are you going to go with for plants and livestock? Hard scape?


----------



## GMYukonon24s

Wow them are some rare plants that I've been seen before. nice tank.


----------



## Pugman

jkan0228 said:


> Absolutely superb.
> 
> You probably already mentioned this but what are you going to go with for plants and livestock? Hard scape?


Black lava rock with HC and some grasses. I'll probably experiment with some mosses as well.


----------



## vvDO

Subscribing... This is gonna be sweet.


----------



## Pugman

Finished the hardscape. Plants will arive on Wednesday.


----------



## jcgd

That's really cool man. Unlike how a few people are drifting away from the straight slope to the back with the soil. I really like the mounding. 

Are you planting in the sand, or only the AS?


----------



## Pugman

jcgd said:


> That's really cool man. Unlike how a few people are drifting away from the straight slope to the back with the soil. I really like the mounding.
> 
> Are you planting in the sand, or only the AS?


There is quite a bit of sloping but it's really hard to tell from the pictures. So kind of mounds that slope back. I do plan on planting in the sand. I don't know much about the affects of the sand to the water. I put some vinegar in a glass and poured some sand in there and there was no reaction so I figured it was okay. If it becomes an issue then I'll suck it out and put soil in it's place.


----------



## jcgd

I don't think vinegar would tell you much. To see the bubbles people are looking for you would probably need a strong acid like hydrochloric acid. What kind of sand is? Most sand is silica and is inert. I wouldn't stress over it. 

Regardless, it's a nice hard scape. Where'd you find the lava? I want to find some large chunks to build up the substrate level in my tank.


----------



## Pugman

I have no idea what kind of sand it is. Like I said if it's an issue I'll change it. The lava came from a guy that sells aquarium rock here on the west coast. He just went to a landscape yard and marked it up three times and sold it back to me. It kind of sucks because I could of hand picked some nicer pieces out myself. I really wanted to go to the mountains and pick some up but it's all covered in snow right now. Still I'm pretty happy with the way it turned out.


----------



## BlueJack

Really great scape and equipment!!!


----------



## Lurch98

Absolutely love the light hanger. That's the exact same shape I've been wanting to make for my new ATI Sunpower. If I get over my fear of the conduit bender, I'll see if I can do it half as nicely as you did. Is that 1/2" pipe?


----------



## ua hua

Thats an awesome hardscape. I'm usually not a fan of the white sand up front because it seems it would be a pain in the butt to keep clean and keep bits of the aquasoil out of but I really love the peaks and valleys of your substrate in the back. Keep up the good work.


----------



## karatekid14

This is a great build and scape! I like how the sand creates a negative space and a place for the eye to rest. That's why I wouldn't plant in the sand because it would lessen the contrast. But this is your tank and I believe either way it will look fantastic.


----------



## Pugman

BlueJack said:


> Really great scape and equipment!!!


Thank you



Lurch98 said:


> Absolutely love the light hanger. That's the exact same shape I've been wanting to make for my new ATI Sunpower. If I get over my fear of the conduit bender, I'll see if I can do it half as nicely as you did. Is that 1/2" pipe?


Thanks. It is 1/2". I wouldn't fear a bender so much. The pipe was less then three bucks for a 10' piece. I screwed up the first one. No biggie..



ua hua said:


> Thats an awesome hardscape. I'm usually not a fan of the white sand up front because it seems it would be a pain in the butt to keep clean and keep bits of the aquasoil out of but I really love the peaks and valleys of your substrate in the back. Keep up the good work.


Thank you. Will see how the sand goes. The color of the plants should make the pics look better.



karatekid14 said:


> This is a great build and scape! I like how the sand creates a negative space and a place for the eye to rest. That's why I wouldn't plant in the sand because it would lessen the contrast. But this is your tank and I believe either way it will look fantastic.


I'm only planting a little in the sand. Mostly up against the rocks.


----------



## manualfocus

I'm really liking the progress you're making on this tank. I wish I had the budget for a 180P and all that craziness you've got going. I really like the scape but I'm too OCD to have sand and Aqua Soil at the same time, knowing they'll likely mix if I'm not careful with everything. Can't wait for more pics!


----------



## thuan07

Sweet. Subscribed.


----------



## Pugman

manualfocus said:


> I'm really liking the progress you're making on this tank. I wish I had the budget for a 180P and all that craziness you've got going. I really like the scape but I'm too OCD to have sand and Aqua Soil at the same time, knowing they'll likely mix if I'm not careful with everything. Can't wait for more pics!


Thanks. This tank didn't really fit my budget either. Everything kind of fell into place at the same time. 75% of the cost was from the sale of the reef tank that I had been growing out for many years. For example I purchase a frag of a coral for $185 and grew it out over several years and sold it for $400. I had tons of equipment that I had accumulated that I got pretty good money for too. Selling stuff during tax return time is a lot easier too. I also got a little back from taxes that helped. As far as the sand goes, I love the look but other ten the cost of the sand I wont be out anything if it doesn't work out. It's a great contrast of black lava and white sand.


----------



## frrok

A slight critique...I don't love the white sand in this tank. I think that if you are going with lava rock only, do dark sand and dark rocks. coupled with green plants is where you will have your contrast. If you had wood then maybe it would work. but i am by no means an expert... the tank is going to look pretty epic otherwise.


----------



## Pugman

frrok said:


> A slight critique...I don't love the white sand in this tank. I think that if you are going with lava rock only, do dark sand and dark rocks. coupled with green plants is where you will have your contrast. If you had wood then maybe it would work. but i am by no means an expert... the tank is going to look pretty epic otherwise.


Horizontally the tank is divided into thirds. The white sand and the black lava contrast each other and the bright green HC will contrast the black lava, like you said. I stole this look from one of the instructional videos Amano has circulating around right now.


----------



## frrok

Pugman said:


> Horizontally the tank is divided into thirds. The white sand and the black lava contrast each other and the bright green HC will contrast the black lava, like you said. I stole this look from one of the instructional videos Amano has circulating around right now.


Ahhh. Ok. I remember which one now. Ok ok. This might look awesome.


----------



## Pugman

Spent about five hours planting this.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Wow nice! that's a lot of HC!


----------



## grogan

Very impressive bud. This is going to be worth every cent you put into it.


----------



## jnaz

That tank is going to be a HC farm. You can make a mint putting the trimmings on SNS.


----------



## VadimShevchuk

Just read all 14 pages of your build and I love all the high tech! Can't wait for updates. What group of fish are going to be your main focus for this tank?


----------



## Da Plant Man

If jealously is a sin, today I am sinning.


----------



## audioaficionado

Love the look. Reminds me of an arrested lava flow on an ocean beach that is in the process of recovery.


----------



## Pugman

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Wow nice! that's a lot of HC!


Thanks.



grogan said:


> Very impressive bud. This is going to be worth every cent you put into it.


Thank you. 



jnaz said:


> That tank is going to be a HC farm. You can make a mint putting the trimmings on SNS.


Make a mint? Good because I paid a mint. :icon_lol:



VadimShevchuk said:


> Just read all 14 pages of your build and I love all the high tech! Can't wait for updates. What group of fish are going to be your main focus for this tank?


Funny because compared to my reef tank this setup is way low tech. But I get what you mean. Thanks. I've gone over and over what fish I would like and I always come back to Cardinals. They got to be small and colorful. I am going to get some cool shrimp, somewhere.



Da Plant Man said:


> If jealously is a sin, today I am sinning.






audioaficionado said:


> Love the look. Reminds me of an arrested lava flow on an ocean beach that is in the process of recovery.


The tank really looks so much better in person. It's so big that trying to take a FTS the detail gets lost. I am still shooting with a iPhone tho. Time to bust out the SLR. I've decided to do the dry start thing. at least for a little bit. I had a Repto Fogger laying around to make it easier. We'll see how it turns out.


----------



## mattrt09

when all of that fills in it will look amazing! great job!


----------



## talontsiawd

I have read through this before. Glad you got everything started. I think Cardinals would be a great choice. They are my favorite fish though. They complement larger fish well, be it something like German Blue Ram's to Discus. I would consider a school of rummy nose as well. Even I don't find them to be particular attractive in terms of color but their behavior is nice.

Anyway, glad to see how this turned out. Love the stand, love the lighting setup and how you actually ran the cords through the pipe, etc.


----------



## plantbrain

Have you considered moss as a transition between the lava and the white sand? Small Lava rocks, 1.5' dia can be used and wrapped in moss.

These can be grown in a terrarium like tray and misted with tank water etc.
After 2 weeks or so, the moss will be well attached.
Do not like it? Take them out and sell them.

Low risk.

If you want to add moss to the rocks, the DSM is the time to do this.
Blender some Fissidens and paint brush on the lava, the effect after about 1-2 weeks is real nice.


----------



## ophiophagus

very cool I love the look


----------



## Pugman

mattrt09 said:


> when all of that fills in it will look amazing! great job!


Yah I can't wait.:fish:



talontsiawd said:


> I have read through this before. Glad you got everything started. I think Cardinals would be a great choice. They are my favorite fish though. They complement larger fish well, be it something like German Blue Ram's to Discus. I would consider a school of rummy nose as well. Even I don't find them to be particular attractive in terms of color but their behavior is nice.
> 
> Anyway, glad to see how this turned out. Love the stand, love the lighting setup and how you actually ran the cords through the pipe, etc.


Thank you. Other then the clean up crew fish. I'll probably just stick with just one type. I wish I could find fish that were smaller then Cardinals.



plantbrain said:


> Have you considered moss as a transition between the lava and the white sand? Small Lava rocks, 1.5' dia can be used and wrapped in moss.
> 
> These can be grown in a terrarium like tray and misted with tank water etc.
> After 2 weeks or so, the moss will be well attached.
> Do not like it? Take them out and sell them.
> 
> Low risk.
> 
> If you want to add moss to the rocks, the DSM is the time to do this.
> Blender some Fissidens and paint brush on the lava, the effect after about 1-2 weeks is real nice.


I'm trying the DSM based on your suggestion. The folks at Aqua Forest didn't recommend it. They said people had issues with mold or fungus. Just like saltwater there are several ways to achieve success. I did just get a par meter the other day. You had recommended turning my lights down to a par of 50? Was that suggestion for the DSM or for all the time? I'm going to try the moss paint brush method. I love that idea. 



ophiophagus said:


> very cool I love the look


Thanks. I like to experiment with different things.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> I'm trying the DSM based on your suggestion. The folks at Aqua Forest didn't recommend it. They said people had issues with mold or fungus. Just like saltwater there are several ways to achieve success. I did just get a par meter the other day. You had recommended turning my lights down to a par of 50? Was that suggestion for the DSM or for all the time? I'm going to try the moss paint brush method. I love that idea.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks. I like to experiment with different things.


I guess the DSM does not somehow.........also apply to Wabi Kusa either eh? :icon_roll:icon_roll
They recommend that.

If you cannot grow a terrarium I suppose I would not recommend it
I've never had issues with mold of fungus and if you do...it's because the tank is too sealed up, it needs to be a little vented and dry. Ignorance and failure are not good reasons not to recommend something. It's simply because Amano did not tell them to do it. If Amano came out with an article tomorrow, every ADA dealer would be singing the praises.

You can crank the light till you flood the tank though.

AFA's 180 p has around 40-50 umol along the bottom of the sediment, they had some HC doing well in there, Gloss and E. tennellus. So it grows fine at that umol. Also, since the tank has no plants on the front, pull the lights back towards the rear. 12-14" is a good height. You might have 50-70 umol since the tank's rear is higher.

This is fine.

Moss works great, this came from a long time ago when we needed to moss a bridge with stone and the stone was harsh looking. We blended the moss in water and milk and slapped it on in the spring while it was cool/moist. It took real quick. For aquariums, just 10 sec and in tank water with some light ferts.

Mist daily.

Make sure there is some air, release, blow out the tank once a day etc. Do not leave it tightly sealed.

This is true for terrariums and Crypts etc.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

Pugman said:


> Thank you. Other then the clean up crew fish. I'll probably just stick with just one type. I wish I could find fish that were smaller then Cardinals.


You could try green neon tetras, stays about half the size of a cardinal but still has that full blue stripe


----------



## Pugman

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> You could try green neon tetras, stays about half the size of a cardinal but still has that full blue stripe


I considered them. Wikipedia say Cardinals get 1.25" and GNT get to 1". For the color difference I favor the Cardinals.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

i've seen cardinals get much bigger than 1.25 AFA had some in their 180p at like 2 inches


----------



## jcgd

Yeah, well fed, fat, healthy cardinals will be closer to 2".


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

Holy crap! Subscribed.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> I considered them. Wikipedia say Cardinals get 1.25" and GNT get to 1". For the color difference I favor the Cardinals.


If you travel down to Sac, you can stop by and see what 300 look like in my tank, they are good sized, and not just yet full size. But it'll give you the best perspective of what they will look like in the same sized tank.

Shrimps and Otto cats, maybe a few smaller nice plecos etc.
Cryptic stuff.

A nice school in a large tank cannot be beat.

Rummies are nice also and school better and run faster, but the colors of cards are hard to beat. 

Teaser:


















These guys are only about 6 months old, so in another year or so, they will get full size.
Against a dark background, they really look good.

A white sand foreground will also help the color.
I also have a "pug wood" piece of driftwood that only a dog lover will truly appreciate.
One of the weirdest pieces I've ever found.


----------



## plantbrain

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> i've seen cardinals get much bigger than 1.25 AFA had some in their 180p at like 2 inches


They did not look well fed.


----------



## Pugman

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> i've seen cardinals get much bigger than 1.25 AFA had some in their 180p at like 2 inches


So does that mean Wikipedia is wrong with the Green Tetras too? 1" is what they say to be there adult size.



plantbrain said:


> If you travel down to Sac, you can stop by and see what 300 look like in my tank, they are good sized, and not just yet full size. But it'll give you the best perspective of what they will look like in the same sized tank.
> 
> Shrimps and Otto cats, maybe a few smaller nice plecos etc.
> Cryptic stuff.
> 
> A nice school in a large tank cannot be beat.
> 
> Rummies are nice also and school better and run faster, but the colors of cards are hard to beat.
> 
> Teaser:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These guys are only about 6 months old, so in another year or so, they will get full size.
> Against a dark background, they really look good.
> 
> A white sand foreground will also help the color.
> I also have a "pug wood" piece of driftwood that only a dog lover will truly appreciate.
> One of the weirdest pieces I've ever found.


Thanks for the invite. Ill have to hit you up soon. I'd love to check out that piece of wood. Funny we have the same size tank and the same idea of a mass of cardinals to fill it as well. That look is hard to beat.


----------



## talontsiawd

I have to agree with everyone about Cardinal size. I have had some for about 1.5 years and they are about 1.5 inch. Some are still getting bigger. I have seen many around the 2 in mark in other tanks.


----------



## Pugman

talontsiawd said:


> I have to agree with everyone about Cardinal size. I have had some for about 1.5 years and they are about 1.5 inch. Some are still getting bigger. I have seen many around the 2 in mark in other tanks.


You mean to tell me Wikipedia is wrong? How can this be, it's on the internet, it can't be wrong. How about Green Neon Tetras? What do you know about there size?


----------



## talontsiawd

Pugman said:


> You mean to tell me Wikipedia is wrong? How can this be, it's on the internet, it can't be wrong. How about Green Neon Tetras? What do you know about there size?


Never had Green Neons. In fact, I have never seen them to this point.


----------



## antbug

What about some rasbora's? Chili or Galaxy? They stay really small and have nice color.

Coming along nicely.


----------



## chiefroastbeef

antbug said:


> What about some rasbora's? Chili or Galaxy? They stay really small and have nice color.
> 
> Coming along nicely.



My biggest cardinal is 2 inches definitely, it is huge.

Chilis will stay below one inch, at least in my tanks. Galaxies in my experience will get to almost 1.25 inches.


----------



## toksyn

I really, really like the look of the lava rock in your tank. Well done!


----------



## kwheeler91

If you hav ever been to a zoo or aquarium that has some tetra species or barbs or what not in larger tanks, you would be surprised at just how large they can get compared to whats in your average aquarium.


----------



## plantbrain

The cards will look the best.

If you care for them and feed them well, no issue, Chico has soft KH's I'd bet also, all sierra snow melt water.


----------



## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> The cards will look the best.
> 
> If you care for them and feed them well, no issue, Chico has soft KH's I'd bet also, all sierra snow melt water.


Ya I'm thinking Cardinals are my best bet. I have been able to keep them up here. However are water here is as hard as it gets. I mix R/O with it. I got a 1000 gpd R/o unit so I should be okay.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> Ya I'm thinking Cardinals are my best bet. I have been able to keep them up here. However are water here is as hard as it gets. I mix R/O with it. I got a 1000 gpd R/o unit so I should be okay.


You guys must get the sludge from wells deep like Davis.
It does not need cleaning, just a little chlorine, but it's hard. All the good water goes to ag and the rice patties


----------



## audioaficionado

The Colorado River water in San Diego was hard enough to walk on. Grew great Crypts and swords.


----------



## cordero01

Have a look at this tetra is a nice schooling fish http://www.fishbase.org/summary/Hyphessobrycon-bentosi.html


----------



## Pugman

At first I thought I'd had some kind of spider in the tank because I saw web like stuff in a few spots of the tank. Later finding out it's some kind of fungus and it started to melt a patch of my HC. I removed the plastic wrap and flushed the HC via misting. I'm going to let it dry out a little. Any other suggestions?


----------



## plantbrain

FYI, I have HC growing above the water in 2 tanks, it's dry. Once the plants send roots, typically after 1 week or so, then you can dry the system out more.


----------



## Pugman

Yesterday was the one week mark, so drying it out I am.


----------



## Pugman

I have some Fissidens Geppii coming in tomorrow. For moss that was pretty expensive. But equally as cool. It looks like micro ferns.


----------



## radioman

Love the progress and look of this tank.


----------



## 150EH

I haven't been back to see your progress since page but it looks great and you spared no expense on the goods, I can't wait to see it filled and some fauna frolicking in the tank, nice job!!!

I have ni idea what fungus or mold may be on your plant but I would try to remove what you can by hand before you fill the tank and maybe you can split some of the larger pieces to fill in what died off, good luck.


----------



## AaronT

Pugman said:


> So does that mean Wikipedia is wrong with the Green Tetras too? 1" is what they say to be there adult size.


Green neons do stay a lot smaller than cardinals. Mine never got over an inch.


----------



## Pugman

So before I through $150 worth of moss on to a blender what exactly am I supposed to do? I guess what I am asking is am I looking for pulp to paint onto the rock or should I cut it up with a knife? I just want a little clarification before I destroy this. Thanks


----------



## ua hua

Hopefully this will help you out. And that is some cool looking fissidens.


http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/82384/one-way-to-attach-mini-fissidens-on-the-rock-or-carpet

Some people mix buttermilk in with it but I don't think that is necessary.


----------



## toksyn

ua hua said:


> Hopefully this will help you out. And that is some cool looking fissidens.
> 
> 
> http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/82384/one-way-to-attach-mini-fissidens-on-the-rock-or-carpet
> 
> Some people mix buttermilk in with it but I don't think that is necessary.


Agreed. Buttermilk will just get you a mold farm really quickly. If anything, I would recommend finely milled sphagnum as a means of keeping the moss moist. "Paint" some milled sphagnum on your target surface, and follow that up with a top coat of the blended Fissidens. Conversely, just blend some sphagnum and Fissidens together.

I've started skipping the sphagnum - if you have enough blended moss applied to a surface to begin with, it tends to keep itself hydrated so long as you mist appropriately. Air movement / reduced humidity (but not dryness) will train the moss to creep along the surface and stay compact instead of shooting tendrils everywhere.

Also, I make no guarantees on recovery with blending the Fissidens, it may be safer just to cut / tear it into small pieces. Some mosses don't like being blended.


----------



## audioaficionado

Pugman said:


> So before I through $150 worth of moss on to a blender what exactly am I supposed to do? I guess what I am asking is am I looking for pulp to paint onto the rock or should I cut it up with a knife? I just want a little clarification before I destroy this. Thanks


You should only blend a small part of it and leave the rest to regenerate. Shouldn't take a lot to get started. You might try a pulsed coarse chop in a food processor to save a hundred scissor cuts.


----------



## jcgd

Why not just take the fronds, lay them gently where you want them and spray them with water to make em stick for now. Repeat daily until they are taking well. This is how I dry start my moss and it works just fine.

Or only chop half just in case. I'm sure it'll be fine if you chop it, but it's going to take a while to get going again as all these tiny little bits need to grow out enough to get some speed behind the growth.


----------



## Pugman

I separated the fronds and poked them into a couple of cracks and I really liked how it looked so I did this with the rest of what I had. Every two hours it would dry out and start to curl. I also had the fungus thing going on as well. So I just filled it and I solved both issues. The water is slightly cloudy but everything looks pretty good so far.


----------



## antbug

I'm not sure if you are still on the fence with what fish to get, but I was at Tom's house a few days ago and those Cards are hard to beat. I have rummy's because I love the schooling aspect, but the looks of a big school of cardinals....just stunning!

Can't wait to see if flooded. Post some pics already :hihi:


----------



## Pugman

I could have twice as many green neon tetras. They are not as bright tho. It's a tough one. I am in the process of locating some nice CRS. Suggestions?


----------



## Pugman

update pics


----------



## jcgd

Nice, a quick refresh and your journal pops to the top. Epic tank man. This scape is so clean and prefect. You nailed it with the natural looks and I love the hills. I'm always so pumped to see your updates.


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST

truly amazing


----------



## antbug

Bravo!


----------



## plantbrain

Water changes every 3 days, crank the snot out of the CO2, dose lightly for now.

Stay on top of it.


----------



## jkan0228

Dang. That's a TON of HC!


----------



## oldpunk78

Epic


----------



## CL

Ditto what everyone else has said. I love the uniqueness of the scape. Tank just looks a little blue for freshwater but that can't be changed.
Very well done though. That tank is a jewel just sitting there empty.


----------



## kwheeler91

This turned out awesome. Reminds me of a coastal cliff.


----------



## plantbrain

CL said:


> Ditto what everyone else has said. I love the uniqueness of the scape. Tank just looks a little blue for freshwater but that can't be changed.
> Very well done though. That tank is a jewel just sitting there empty.


I think he can dial the blue/white ratio with the LED's.


----------



## styxx

Pugman said:


> I separated the fronds and poked them into a couple of cracks and I really liked how it looked so I did this with the rest of what I had. Every two hours it would dry out and start to curl. I also had the fungus thing going on as well. So I just filled it and I solved both issues. The water is slightly cloudy but everything looks pretty good so far.


So how are you loving the LEDs!? I've made the switch and I have to say, I'm not going back to anything else again.


----------



## Pugman

jcgd said:


> Nice, a quick refresh and your journal pops to the top. Epic tank man. This scape is so clean and prefect. You nailed it with the natural looks and I love the hills. I'm always so pumped to see your updates.


Thanks


IWANNAGOFAST said:


> truly amazing


Thank you



antbug said:


> Bravo!


thanks


plantbrain said:


> Water changes every 3 days, crank the snot out of the CO2, dose lightly for now.
> 
> Stay on top of it.


Will do


jkan0228 said:


> Dang. That's a TON of HC!


it is


oldpunk78 said:


> Epic


Thanks


CL said:


> Ditto what everyone else has said. I love the uniqueness of the scape. Tank just looks a little blue for freshwater but that can't be changed.
> Very well done though. That tank is a jewel just sitting there empty.


thanks


kwheeler91 said:


> This turned out awesome. Reminds me of a coastal cliff.


thanks


plantbrain said:


> I think he can dial the blue/white ratio with the LED's.


it normally is dialed down but it was late when I took the picks and I pushed buttons to get it to turn one.


styxx said:


> So how are you loving the LEDs!? I've made the switch and I have to say, I'm not going back to anything else again.


at this point I love them.


----------



## plantbrain

Add Amano shrimp, like about 50-100. Add Otto cats. Add other shrimp also.


----------



## speedie408

Very very nicely done sir!


----------



## audioaficionado

I can't wait for the plants to grow out more and some fauna added.

Outstanding execution. You really did your homework on this one.


----------



## kwheeler91

plantbrain said:


> Add Amano shrimp, like about 50-100. Add Otto cats. Add other shrimp also.


I agree. This thing has shrimp tank written all over it.


----------



## JasonG75

SUBSCRIBED..hope the HC doesnt suffer the submerged melt like most other DSM.


----------



## jcgd

Pugman, did you let the dry start fill completely before filling? Judging by the speed at which this tank filled in, I suspect you let the plants root and then filled rather quickly. Just guessing though. 

If you just filled it, how'd you get the carpet to fill in so quickly?


----------



## styxx

Pugman,
I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying LEDs as much as you are because I have to admit when I initially switched over, I was deeply skeptical. I suspect that the main reason was that I had become, over the past 8 or so years, so used to the spread of light stemming from CFLs and T5s that my eyes didn't really adjust initially to the LED output. However, as time passed, and the more that I read and learned about LEDs the more I became acclimatized to their utility. Of course, it did (at least in my case) require some adjustment to their difference from other lighting methods, but that is not to suggest that their ability to be useful has diminished my expectations. Exactly the opposite is true; I have come to relish the fact that there isn't any "lost" light (much like that with CFLs and T5s) but they also come with reduced wattage and zero heat. I really must say that I'm truly a convert to the future that LEDs have for the hobby. The real question in my mind is where are they going to take us? I know that there are some high end (AI Sol for example) fixtures for Reef tanks that have excellent success, but is it just me or does it seem that planted hobbyists haven't caught on?


----------



## 2in10

Fantastic scape


----------



## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> Add Amano shrimp, like about 50-100. Add Otto cats. Add other shrimp also.


 Currently I have two Amano shrimp, four Siamese Algae eaters, one LF Bushy nose pleco, and two Otto's. 



speedie408 said:


> Very very nicely done sir!


Why...Thank you. Can you hook me up with some CRS?



audioaficionado said:


> I can't wait for the plants to grow out more and some fauna added.
> 
> Outstanding execution. You really did your homework on this one.


Fish should come in this week.



kwheeler91 said:


> I agree. This thing has shrimp tank written all over it.


It's part of the plan



JasonG75 said:


> SUBSCRIBED..hope the HC doesnt suffer the submerged melt like most other DSM.


 It's been submerged for two weeks. I think I'm passed the melting stage.



jcgd said:


> Pugman, did you let the dry start fill completely before filling? Judging by the speed at which this tank filled in, I suspect you let the plants root and then filled rather quickly. Just guessing though.
> 
> If you just filled it, how'd you get the carpet to fill in so quickly?


I did the dry start for a little over a week. I had an issue between the DBT's being too wet and the moss being too dry. So I filled it and the problem was solved. High light and C02 for now no Ferts.



styxx said:


> Pugman,
> I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying LEDs as much as you are because I have to admit when I initially switched over, I was deeply skeptical. I suspect that the main reason was that I had become, over the past 8 or so years, so used to the spread of light stemming from CFLs and T5s that my eyes didn't really adjust initially to the LED output. However, as time passed, and the more that I read and learned about LEDs the more I became acclimatized to their utility. Of course, it did (at least in my case) require some adjustment to their difference from other lighting methods, but that is not to suggest that their ability to be useful has diminished my expectations. Exactly the opposite is true; I have come to relish the fact that there isn't any "lost" light (much like that with CFLs and T5s) but they also come with reduced wattage and zero heat. I really must say that I'm truly a convert to the future that LEDs have for the hobby. The real question in my mind is where are they going to take us? I know that there are some high end (AI Sol for example) fixtures for Reef tanks that have excellent success, but is it just me or does it seem that planted hobbyists haven't caught on?


If you are not using LED'S then you are missing out. It's like when I bought the first iPhone. Everyone laughed and said I was crazy. Those same people are asking me how they ever did it without. Look how long it took for people to accept T5's.



2in10 said:


> Fantastic scape


Thanks


----------



## speedie408

Sending you a PM.


----------



## Pugman

I added 300 wild caught cardinals to the tank on Tuesday. They came in looking pretty rough. It's Thursday afternoon and there are about 15 alive. It was a pretty stupid decision on my part to buy wild when tank raised ones are available. I tried to save a few bucks (and heard the wild ones were more colorful) and ended up loosing. The tank looked pretty sweet for a few hours anyway. I'm going to defiantly go with tank raised ones in smaller numbers. Sometimes you go to pay to play. Lesson learned


----------



## jcgd

Next batch could have a 95% survival rate. You never know with cardinals. Sorry they didn't work out for you.


----------



## prototyp3

Ouch. That's unfortunate. It really is hit or miss with the wild caught ones. Did you do a mail order on your own or go through your LFS?


----------



## antbug

Sorry to hear about your loss. That's a tough one. I am glad that you went with Cardinals over the green's.


----------



## Anhhung

Wow:drool: What a nice looking setup you got there! What's the total you've spent on this project so far? If you don't mind me asking.:wink:


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> I added 300 wild caught cardinals to the tank on Tuesday. They came in looking pretty rough. It's Thursday afternoon and there are about 15 alive. It was a pretty stupid decision on my part to buy wild when tank raised ones are available. I tried to save a few bucks (and heard the wild ones were more colorful) and ended up loosing. The tank looked pretty sweet for a few hours anyway. I'm going to defiantly go with tank raised ones in smaller numbers. Sometimes you go to pay to play. Lesson learned


Welcome to the club. You always quarantine them for this reason.
Wild are hit or miss. Sometimes you lose maybe 5% or less, others, 95% is typical, no water quality, water changes, additives of any sort will help.

I've tried them all over the years.


----------



## bgallodoro24

Ozydego said:


> I have used a g6 on my planted 55gal for 4 months now and I find that by day 3, the filter has lost half of its rated flow, it is easy to clean out the mechanical filter and then put it back in but I do this every 3-4 days to keep the flow rate up... if I go 7 days, the flow is about 1/10th of its original flow. It traps so much stuff that it slows down very fast. The electronics on it for me are the seller, the temp is graphed as well as the flow rate and TDS, which is what I use to schedule my water changes, I watch and when the TDS gets to a certain level, I do a water change.... I could do without the constant filter cleaning though, I compensated by putting a powerhead in the tank as well for day 3 and 4 before I get back to cleaning the mechanical cartridge again....


If you soak the mech cartride in water and bleach solution for 1 hour you will find that the flow rate stays up fot about 14 days like mine.


----------



## Pugman

prototyp3 said:


> Ouch. That's unfortunate. It really is hit or miss with the wild caught ones. Did you do a mail order on your own or go through your LFS?


LFS


antbug said:


> Sorry to hear about your loss. That's a tough one. I am glad that you went with Cardinals over the green's.


 I would of went with green neons because they are so much smaller. I could get twice as many:icon_eek: however Cardinals were available so Cardnails it is. 



Anhhung said:


> Wow:drool: What a nice looking setup you got there! What's the total you've spent on this project so far? If you don't mind me asking.:wink:


I try not to think about it. 




plantbrain said:


> Welcome to the club. You always quarantine them for this reason.
> Wild are hit or miss. Sometimes you lose maybe 5% or less, others, 95% is typical, no water quality, water changes, additives of any sort will help.
> 
> I've tried them all over the years.


I pretty much knew this that's why I think it was just a stupid decision. 



bgallodoro24 said:


> If you soak the mech cartride in water and bleach solution for 1 hour you will find that the flow rate stays up fot about 14 days like mine.


The filters were running for 16 days with no signs of clogging. I rinsed them with the hose outside and they came out looking brand new.


----------



## plantbrain

I bought 400 for client, they looked okay, got home, they had ick.

I'm down to about 140 right now. I'll end up with maybe 80 once it's all said and done.

PITA because you have work your butt off to save the few that might make it.


----------



## Pugman

It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> It makes me feel better that I'm not the only one.


Down to 80

I'll be happy with 50 saved.


----------



## Lil' Swimz$

I'm curious, where do you order such great amounts of cardinals?


----------



## Pugman

Lil' Swimz$ said:


> I'm curious, where do you order such great amounts of cardinals?


I would think any LFS that stocks Cardinals would special order them for you.


----------



## volatile

I still vote for green neons, because as you've mentioned before, they stay much smaller and you would be able to get a much larger school and make your tank seem even bigger than it already is. 300-400+ of those green neons would be impressive in your tank. 

I also saw you mention possibly getting CRS, and cardinals would make a tasty snack out of those guys in no time.

I know the red stripe is more prominent on the cardinals and contrasts well with the colors of the tank, but the green neons are really attractive as well, and not seen as often.

A supposedly reputable buyer was selling packages of 50 green neons for $85 on aquabid.


----------



## Pugman

volatile said:


> I also saw you mention possibly getting CRS, and cardinals would make a tasty snack out of those guys in no time


I've kept cherry shrimp and Cardinals together with no problems. Why would Crystal Reds be any different?

I still have about 10 Cardinals left that seem to be doing well so the Green Neons are out.


----------



## Ozydego

I keep cherries with my cardinals as well. The cherries do have ton of hiding spots though and I believe that makes a lot of difference in my success rate. I don't see the cherries very much, but when I do, man they are red, so something is going right. After keeping a small school of 20 cardinals in a 55 gal, i say you made the right choice sticking with them pug...


----------



## volatile

Pugman said:


> I've kept cherry shrimp and Cardinals together with no problems. Why would Crystal Reds be any different?
> 
> I still have about 10 Cardinals left that seem to be doing well so the Green Neons are out.


When you kept the cherry shrimp with Cardinals, did they have a lot of hiding spots? Or maybe they were prolific enough breeders that they were reproducing at a quicker rate than they were being eaten.

Your current scape (which is amazing and definitely one of my favorites ever on Plantedtank.net) has little in the way of hiding spots for the CRS. I don't see how they could survive a school of 300 Cardinals without cover.


----------



## jcgd

It's all cover for cherries. They get everywhere.


----------



## Mr. Fish

Wow really stunning setup Pugman... Wish I had the money to throw into a tank like this...

You did your homework, success already is showing. Lets see some updates


----------



## 150EH

You've done a very nice job on your tank, plus it looks like all the gear is top notch too, but I like how you've gotten a low foreground with the elevated plantings.


----------



## plantbrain

dup post


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> I've kept cherry shrimp and Cardinals together with no problems. Why would Crystal Reds be any different?
> 
> I still have about 10 Cardinals left that seem to be doing well so the Green Neons are out.


Temps mostly, RCS are fine with most any temp to throw at them.
CRS really drop off as you hit the upper 70-80F and breed much slower.

If you keep Cards at say 82-84F, typical temps..........I'm not sure the CRS will do well breeding and such, but..........I've managed at 79F to 3x the no#, but it took 1-2 years or so.

Whereas I'd likely have had a lot more say at 73-75F.
Maybe the temp is less an issue with good genetics. 

If someone breeds nice high grade CRS at 80-84F, I'd like to know.

I'll need to get a new batch of cards, so any that make it from this batch, I'll likely just fluff up my own tank. Get the next better batch(I hope) and try again.


----------



## Wayne Disqus

Great tank Jody. Cant wait to see some fish in there.


----------



## Pugman

Would Green Neons be okay at lower temps like 77?


----------



## 2in10

Neons will do well there and down to 72.


----------



## kwheeler91

Neons are great little tetras, not as vibrant as cards but they dont drop like flies either. I saw some golden neons at petco ther other day, looked like a 'blonde' neon. might want to give those a look too.


----------



## AaronT

I've had really good luck with the green neons as far as survival rate and they tend to be cheaper. I keep my tanks at 75 degrees and they do fine.


----------



## Storm

Awesome tank. I tried keeping sakura cherry red shrimp with my cardinals in the 60P and the cardinals picked them off one by one over the course of a month or so. They would wait until the shrimps molted and attack - even though they couldn't fit the shrimp in their mouth they would literally tear them in half and it was feeding frenzy time until the shrimp was gone. Vicious little buggers - I hear they are distant relatives of piranha. Beautiful fish, though.

I definitely wouldn't keep CRS or anything expensive with them. Get about 50 cherries and they might breed or hide fast enough to replenish faster than they are eaten. And hey, free live food, right?


----------



## plantbrain

I have about 200 to 400 RCS culls from the fire shrimp tank in my 180, they always are more every time I look and the Cards in there easily rip full sized mysid shrimp to bits. If I mash a clear RCS cull, they will eat the dead ones the same way.

CRS tend not to be as tough not avoid predation as RCS however.
I'd suspect many species of tetra would eat them.

I just added Celest pearl danios to my 70 gal woodagumi, they are so small, it's hard for them to go after brine shrimp even. I'll be adding the CRS SSS grade to that tank soon.

My cards are good sized and they might eat a few of CRS I think. If you add them while to suddenly turn on the lights and have a dense tight foreground cover, then they can hide easier.

Even typical shrimp predators will have a tougher time.

I have not had any losses for almost 2 days and there's no sign of any disease on the cards I have in quarantine. I might have 40 or so.


----------



## Pugman

So right now I'm dealing with some green water issue. I hooked up a UV steralizer so we will see how it goes. 

Lost every Cardinal. I am revisiting the Green Neons idea because I really want some nice shrimp. There's a decent patch of dwarf hairgrass which should make for some nice cover for them. 

I'd like to get a half dozen dwarf Cory's. Any suggestions.?


----------



## vvDO

I hope you do choose green neons, I think they would look great in your tank. How about a dozen or more of C. habrosus.


----------



## green_valley

Awesome tank Pugman. I love it. I love the design. Well done. 

Here are my questions (sorry I didnt' read the whole journal):
1) What type or rocks? lava?
2) I noticed you posted on 04/19, you had fungus and spider web thingy, and they were melting. Then 5/03, you posted with this amazing growth. SO what did you do to the melting, fungus HC? Basically about 2 weeks HC turned around and have this amazing growth?

Thanks


----------



## Pugman

Thanks
I used black lava. After posting I had fungus I filled it a Few days later. Why did it fill in so quick? LEDs (high light) and Co2. No ferts yet.


----------



## Pugman

Just an update, the UV sterilizer's bulb that's on my tank is about two years old so I wasn't sure how it would work. They are not very cheap to replace so I was hoping it would do the job, and it is. You can now see the back of the tank. It's working but very slowly. I was pretty surprised at how well the plants are doing submerged in green water. It's almost time for a trim:icon_wink. The sand gets dirty with algae pretty quick. I'd like to add a half dozen corys to help keep it clean. Does anyone know what's the smallest Cory?

Because of the feedback of this thread I have now shifted to Green Neon Tetras as I feel they would be better with CRS, they fit better into my "small" theme, and I can have twice as many fish as Cardinal Tetras. The shrimp I'm after are $25 each so I want as little risk as possible. I don't have a great deal of experience with fish that are compatible with shrimp. I would like to keep Dwarf Cory's(6), Green Neon Tetras, Siamese Algae eaters, Bushy nose pleco's, and Otto's. Would all of these fish be compatible tank mates?


----------



## frrok

Pygmy cories are the smallest I think.


----------



## AaronT

The bushy nose plecos will make a mess of things quickly. They also don't fit into the "small" theme you have going. I'd leave out the SAEs for the same reason. 

Why only 6 pygmy cories? You'll barely notice that many. I would get at least 2-3 dozen.


----------



## jcgd

I'd skip the algae eaters. Get more ottos instead. In a tank that size id consider getting a bigger group of dwarf cories, maybe 15 or so. They will look awesome and act more natural. 

Consider adding the shrimp before the fish and get a colony going. The fish may see them as food if you add shrimp later.


----------



## kwheeler91

Skip the SAE they get like 6 inches, probably eat your shrimp when they get larger too. Pygmy cories or habrosus or hastastus or something like that are the smallest. And I agree you should get at least 12 or more. I would do like 2-3 dozen, they are small but very cool. I wouldnt worry too much about stocking levels in a tank that large and fish so small if thats why you dont want a lot of them anyway. Not to mention all the plant mass you water quality will be fine.

I also would not get bushynose or larger plecos for a couple reasons. Doesnt seem to be a lot of hiding places, and your carpet may take a hit because they just mow over everything without a care in the world. Ottos would be great, they are a very cool fish when kept in a nice big school.


----------



## Pugman

frrok said:


> Pygmy cories are the smallest I think.


Thanks, I'll look in to them.



AaronT said:


> The bushy nose plecos will make a mess of things quickly. They also don't fit into the "small" theme you have going. I'd leave out the SAEs for the same reason.
> 
> Why only 6 pygmy cories? You'll barely notice that many. I would get at least 2-3 dozen.


I figured six would be enough to keep the floor clean. I wouldn't be putting these guys in my tank if I didn't need them to keep it clean.



jcgd said:


> I'd skip the algae eaters. Get more ottos instead. In a tank that size id consider getting a bigger group of dwarf cories, maybe 15 or so. They will look awesome and act more natural.
> 
> Consider adding the shrimp before the fish and get a colony going. The fish may see them as food if you add shrimp later.


I have not found the Otto's to be that great of algae eaters. I agree they do fit into the "small theme better. Can you run a successful high light system with out SAE's or Pleco's ?



kwheeler91 said:


> Skip the SAE they get like 6 inches, probably eat your shrimp when they get larger too. Pygmy cories or habrosus or hastastus or something like that are the smallest. And I agree you should get at least 12 or more. I would do like 2-3 dozen, they are small but very cool. I wouldnt worry too much about stocking levels in a tank that large and fish so small if thats why you dont want a lot of them anyway. Not to mention all the plant mass you water quality will be fine.
> 
> I also would not get bushynose or larger plecos for a couple reasons. Doesn't seem to be a lot of hiding places, and your carpet may take a hit because they just mow over everything without a care in the world. Ottos would be great, they are a very cool fish when kept in a nice big school.


One Bushynose cleans the entire front glass. It's the albino Long fin version. A very beautiful fish. I've never had an experience where they ate plants. However if it's possible to run this tank with just Ottos I would prefer that. I really think keeping everything small really adds something to this scape. 

According to this Forum's Sticky the problem to almost all of algae issues is to add a SAE. They are not the prettiest fish so I would ditch them if Otto's will work.


----------



## antbug

There is a local Sacramento guy who breeds cories. Let me know if you want his info. He's got some cool stuff. I'm going to get a big school of albino's from him. I agree with the above about the SAE's. They get big and then they just wait for flake food. Otto's would be good and small cories.


----------



## jcgd

Cories will pick up anything on substrate worth eating. Almost nothing will eat what's left over, but you shouldn't have too much if everything is healthy. You can get some Amano shrimp and they are great algae eaters. Ottos are too, they are just small so they work in team and you notice the difference over the whole tank. Keep in mind the Amanos will each different algae than ottos (and overlap). I'd skip then pleco as the environment isn't really ideal. There is nowhere to hide. 

Algae Shouldn't really be a long term issue if everything is working in your tank. After the new tank period things settle down and if you have everything set right algae will be so minimal you won't worry about it. 

If it were my tank I would have a few hundred green neons, around 15 Ottos, 30 dwarf cories and about a dozen Amano shrimp. The specialized shrimp as well, and then I would adjust the schools as I observed them.


----------



## green_valley

Pugman said:


> Thanks
> I used black lava. After posting I had fungus I filled it a Few days later. Why did it fill in so quick? LEDs (high light) and Co2. No ferts yet.


THanks Pugman. I was reading your journal and research on your LED lights. They're around $500??????


----------



## kwheeler91

Sae's are cool fish but antbug is right, they will become fish food eaters instead of algae eaters. besides ottos are awesome and hard workers. They pay more attention to detail, if you will. I didnt mean the bushy nose would eat your plants they just have little regard for where you like small plants like hc, planted or floating around 

Balance is the key, sae are not.


----------



## AaronT

Nerite snails and Amano shrimp are good smaller algae eaters.


----------



## styxx

green_valley said:


> THanks Pugman. I was reading your journal and research on your LED lights. They're around $500??????


LOL. That's what happens when you buy any of the the really powerful LEDs. They're *not* cheap, but they are definitely worth it!


----------



## Pugman

green_valley said:


> THanks Pugman. I was reading your journal and research on your LED lights. They're around $500??????


These units are $750 each. I have three of them on this tank. The cover a 2'X2' area. They designed them to mimic a 250 watt metal halide which is the standard in reef lighting. They do a coast to coast sunrise/sunset, lighting storms, cloud cover, you can tune them into any color you wish. They are upgrading them to web based controlling. I can use my iPhone or iPad to control them. The list goes on and on. I've been doing this for over 20 years and I got to tell you these lights are incredible.


----------



## oldpunk78

Have you run into any software issues with your lights? I know some people had some problems at first.

I can't wait till they release the vega 'color'. I want to see its specs so i can make a copy of it. Well, not the being able to control each led individually, that's just too much.


----------



## Pugman

oldpunk78 said:


> Have you run into any software issues with your lights? I know some people had some problems at first.
> 
> I can't wait till they release the vega 'color'. I want to see its specs so i can make a copy of it. Well, not the being able to control each led individually, that's just too much.


I have not had any problems. I think they resolved those issues with the latest upgrade. I am unfamiler with vega color.


----------



## styxx

Pugman, have you given any consideration to some type of plant for the very back of the tank, e.g. Cyperus Heleferi or some kind of Val??


----------



## Pugman

I'm not a huge fan of that look. I don't mind it but just not on my tank:icon_smil. Plus mixing plants that send out runners together is too much maintenance. I'm already second guessing the Dwarf Hairgrass. It's growing like mad. The tank is really starting to clear up soon. Almost time for a picture update.


----------



## 150EH

I know you got your rocks in a long time ago but you were asking for rock at the beginning of this journal, we were in PA last week at "That Pet Place" and they had a huge bin of very dark grey rock that would look black when wet, angular shapes with a rough holey surface similar to lava rock, non of the pieces were larger than a cantaloupe and they were priced at $2.59 a pound.

They are very similar to what you have but you have larger pieces and better shapes, but you can always stack smaller ones together and make pockets of soil for planting.


----------



## Storm

I think you'll be very happy with the green neons. They aren't quite as colorful as the cardinals, but after you've had then a while they color up nicely and even get a small red underbelly similar to the cards.

As far as cories go, they are great fish, but don't count on them to eat green algae from the sand. In my humble experience, algae eaters don't really solve algae problems - only balancing the light, ferts, and healthy plant mass can suppress algae. If 50 umol of PAR is causing algae on the substrate, try dialing it down to 40 or shorten your photo period to 8 or 6 hours. Personally I am always quite surprised at how little light some of these plants need, even the high light ones.

Also, keep in mind that in a new tank with aquasoil it's normal to get some algae growth. Very frequent water changes (daily first week, every other day second week, and twice weekly for next two weeks) can help but the ammonia leeching from the AS is bound to cause some algae to appear. Hopefully your plant growth will take over and suppress it.

Try using excel or glutaraldehyde daily to suppress the algae. It's a good supplement in case CO2 is not circulating throughout your entire tank.

Looking forward to new pics.


----------



## green_valley

Any updates? any melting part? Any algae issue so far?


----------



## Pugman

green_valley said:


> Any updates? any melting part? Any algae issue so far?


As soon as I filled it the melting stopped. It's completely filled in now, in fact it's getting near time to trim. Minor hair/string algae I suck out every three days or so. I've done maybe three bigger water changes but mostly ten gallon water changes. Snails are everywhere. I added four assassin snails. I'm not sure thats enough but we will see. Last night I added 25 Otto's. I can't get Green Neon's or pygmy Cory's right now. Otto's are pretty cool. They are schooling. Just about done with my green water issue. I hope it won't be ongoing when I remove the UV sterilizer. Other then that it's pretty easy breezy.:fish:


----------



## jkan0228

4 assassins in a 180P? Sounds like you need a bit more... :hihi: 

Pics pics pics!! 

Btw any plan on adding amanos?


----------



## plantbrain

GW and the other algae should go away, particularly if you do frequent water changes, that will save you till you can tweak typically the CO2 is at issue.

Water change + tweak that from here anytime you spot any algae.


----------



## styxx

jkan0228 said:


> 4 assassins in a 180P? Sounds like you need a bit more... :hihi:
> 
> Pics pics pics!!
> 
> Btw any plan on adding amanos?


I agree with Tom, I'd have at minimum 10 assassins probably more depending on the intensity of the snail infestation. But I will have to add my voice to the calls for PICS!!!


----------



## green_valley

Pugman said:


> As soon as I filled it the melting stopped. It's completely filled in now, in fact it's getting near time to trim. Minor hair/string algae I suck out every three days or so. I've done maybe three bigger water changes but mostly ten gallon water changes. Snails are everywhere. I added four assassin snails. I'm not sure thats enough but we will see. Last night I added 25 Otto's. I can't get Green Neon's or pygmy Cory's right now. Otto's are pretty cool. They are schooling. Just about done with my green water issue. I hope it won't be ongoing when I remove the UV sterilizer. Other then that it's pretty easy breezy.:fish:


Thanks Pugman. Are you saying that you're doing daily WC since?




styxx said:


> I agree with Tom, I'd have at minimum 10 assassins probably more depending on the intensity of the snail infestation. But I will have to add my voice to the calls for PICS!!!


Is Jkan actually TOM?


----------



## oldpunk78

Bump for an update.


----------



## radioman

I forgot about this awesome thread. Finally subscribed and hoping for pics.


----------



## Pugman

oldpunk78 said:


> Bump for an update.


Well here's an update. The original planting of this aquarium has put me in a world of hurt. I had purchased 125 potted plants that I quartered totaling 500 plants to plant. I must of beeen on some kind of "planting high". It took 5 hours to do it. Two days after I had a frozen shoulder. I visited a medical doctor then a orthopedic message therapist and finally a chiropractor. A thousand dollars and two months later I'm about 80% better. It is extremely difficult to clean the aquarium but I give it my best. 

I gave up with the Green Neons because they are no where to be found. I added 200 cardinals about a week ago and I have around 60 left. They seem to have stop dying. I also can't get pygmy Corys right now.

So the HC is growing like mad. I've cut it back once and it's almost ready for another trimming soon. I have a big problem with algae right now. I've scaled back to 50% of my lighting intensity and I have upped the Co2. That has slowed it down some. I dosed the tank with 2X the Excel recommendation. All algae is turning white right now. I hate to post pics that are sub par. For some strange reason I like to solve problems that occur. Blanket Weed is what I think I have. As it turns out I was programing the lights wrong. I was running them at 100% which is way too much. Like I said they are at 50% right now. Co2 is at it's max. Everything seems to be on the mend. Pics are coming soon.


----------



## oldpunk78

I was wondering if those radions where going to over power your tank or not. Do you have access to a par meter? Sucks about your shoulder too. The only way hobbies are supposed to be painful is in the pocketbook. Geez...


----------



## jcgd

Most reef keepers are running radions at 40% so they don't bleach their sps coral.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> Well here's an update. The original planting of this aquarium has put me in a world of hurt. I had purchased 125 potted plants that I quartered totaling 500 plants to plant. I must of beeen on some kind of "planting high". It took 5 hours to do it. Two days after I had a frozen shoulder. I visited a medical doctor then a orthopedic message therapist and finally a chiropractor. A thousand dollars and two months later I'm about 80% better. It is extremely difficult to clean the aquarium but I give it my best.
> 
> I gave up with the Green Neons because they are no where to be found. I added 200 cardinals about a week ago and I have around 60 left. They seem to have stop dying. I also can't get pygmy Corys right now.
> 
> So the HC is growing like mad. I've cut it back once and it's almost ready for another trimming soon. I have a big problem with algae right now. I've scaled back to 50% of my lighting intensity and I have upped the Co2. That has slowed it down some. I dosed the tank with 2X the Excel recommendation. All algae is turning white right now. I hate to post pics that are sub par. For some strange reason I like to solve problems that occur. Blanket Weed is what I think I have. As it turns out I was programing the lights wrong. I was running them at 100% which is way too much. Like I said they are at 50% right now. Co2 is at it's max. Everything seems to be on the mend. Pics are coming soon.



See?? I'm cheaper than the Doctors were:wink:


----------



## green_valley

Pugman said:


> Well here's an update. The original planting of this aquarium has put me in a world of hurt. I had purchased 125 potted plants that I quartered totaling 500 plants to plant. I must of beeen on some kind of "planting high". It took 5 hours to do it. Two days after I had a frozen shoulder. I visited a medical doctor then a orthopedic message therapist and finally a chiropractor. A thousand dollars and two months later I'm about 80% better. It is extremely difficult to clean the aquarium but I give it my best.
> 
> I gave up with the Green Neons because they are no where to be found. I added 200 cardinals about a week ago and I have around 60 left. They seem to have stop dying. I also can't get pygmy Corys right now.
> 
> So the HC is growing like mad. I've cut it back once and it's almost ready for another trimming soon. I have a big problem with algae right now. I've scaled back to 50% of my lighting intensity and I have upped the Co2. That has slowed it down some. I dosed the tank with 2X the Excel recommendation. All algae is turning white right now. I hate to post pics that are sub par. For some strange reason I like to solve problems that occur. Blanket Weed is what I think I have. As it turns out I was programing the lights wrong. I was running them at 100% which is way too much. Like I said they are at 50% right now. Co2 is at it's max. Everything seems to be on the mend. Pics are coming soon.



Well, I hope you will better. 

As for your tank, at least HC is growing mad, instead of melting down. I would rather keep on trimming, then keep on replanting them like in my 50g. Cant wait for the pics.


----------



## Pugman

I had no idea Excel worked that well. You can hardly tell there was an algae issue. I used the double dosage treatment then when it turned white I added Special Blend from Microblift to dissolve the decaying algae. The combo worked well. Snail infestation is the last of the issues that need to be resolved. 20 Assassin snails are on there way. Still about 60 Cardinals remain. Pics tonight roud:


----------



## CmLaracy

Pugman said:


> I had no idea Excel worked that well. You can hardly tell there was an algae issue. I used the double dosage treatment then when it turned white I added Special Blend from Microblift to dissolve the decaying algae. The combo worked well. Snail infestation is the last of the issues that need to be resolved. 20 Assassin snails are on there way. Still about 60 Cardinals remain. Pics tonight roud:


Glad to hear excel worked for you, it's good like that. Looking forward to the pics.


----------



## ChadRamsey

how about an update on this beautiful tank?


----------



## styxx

*Here, Here!!*



Pugman said:


> I had no idea Excel worked that well. You can hardly tell there was an algae issue. I used the double dosage treatment then when it turned white I added Special Blend from Microblift to dissolve the decaying algae. The combo worked well. Snail infestation is the last of the issues that need to be resolved. 20 Assassin snails are on there way. Still about 60 Cardinals remain. Pics tonight roud:


I have long sworn by Excel as an algae preventative. It doesn't always work when things are completely out of balance, but it certainly is a useful deterrent, IMHO. I hope that the assassins work out well for you! I know I absolutely hate having snails in any of my aquariums but it seems like they're almost inevitable...

@Tom, I used some shims and she's all good to go and has been running nice and level...now only if I could get this E. Hydropiper to carpet, lol. 

But on to the PICS I say, as Chad properly suggests!!! We are eagerly waiting the next update Pugman! I don't know about anyone else, but I know the suspense is killing me, lol. In many ways, I'm much like you Pugman - I don't like taking and posting "bad" pics but, then again, if it weren't for those I would never have learned anything about the hobby. So in that sense, they can be pedagogically useful. :biggrin:


----------



## Pugman

Alright already I'll see if I can get some pics soon. I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier but we had a new baby less than two months ago so I have even less time to clean and take pictures. I'll get on it.


----------



## Pugman

Here's a few updated pics from the iPhone.


----------



## sayurasem

Your the beast pugman! btw where is the fissidens?


----------



## Ozydego

I love how the HC is dripping off the cliff there... awesome!


----------



## SaltyNC

Wow! Awesome design. I love the contrast between the dark rock, rich greens, and white sand.


----------



## ukprometheus

stunning and i especially love the lights :tongue:


----------



## ThatGuyWithTheFish

I'm... at a completely loss for words. One of the best, Amano-quality for sure.


----------



## jcgd

Looks nice. I like how the hc is creeping over the rocks. It looks like you have a bit of GSA or other algae there.


----------



## plantbrain

Nice overall design concept pugman, reminds me table top mountain outside Oroville. Well, before the flowers start popping up.


----------



## Pugman

sayurasem said:


> Your the beast pugman! btw where is the fissidens?


It's there I threw a bunch of it away before I used Excel. I'll get a macro shot of it.



Ozydego said:


> I love how the HC is dripping off the cliff there... awesome!


Thanks I do too.



SaltyNC said:


> Wow! Awesome design. I love the contrast between the dark rock, rich greens, and white sand.


Thanks. 



ukprometheus said:


> stunning and i especially love the lights :tongue:


Thanks. The lights are pretty fun to play with..


ThatGuyWithTheFish said:


> I'm... at a completely loss for words. One of the best, Amano-quality for sure.


Thanks that's quite a compliment. I'll try not to let that go to my head. Lol


jcgd said:


> Looks nice. I like how the hc is creeping over the rocks. It looks like you have a bit of GSA or other algae there.


GSA ? Green string Algae? 



plantbrain said:


> Nice overall design concept pugman, reminds me table top mountain outside Oroville. Well, before the flowers start popping up.


Thanks. I'm sure that subconsciously it lead me to this design. maybe I should add some wildflowers.


----------



## jcgd

Green Spot algae, but looking again it could just be the picture, or it could be diatoms. The scape is near perfect, not much else to work on.  If it is some algae it might be something interesting to try to tackle if you feel like it. 

The tank looks much less blue in the newer pics. Which photos are closest to in person? Are you liking the look of the LEDs? Would you buy them again?


----------



## Lnd

Hope you don't mind me asking, where did you get your lava rocks from?


----------



## Pugman

jcgd said:


> Green Spot algae, but looking again it could just be the picture, or it could be diatoms. The scape is near perfect, not much else to work on.  If it is some algae it might be something interesting to try to tackle if you feel like it.
> 
> The tank looks much less blue in the newer pics. Which photos are closest to in person? Are you liking the look of the LEDs? Would you buy them again?


The LEDs are awesome. Best lighting system I've ever had. The top picture is the lights turned all the way on. The tank looks like the rest of them. 


Lnd said:


> Hope you don't mind me asking, where did you get your lava rocks from?


Landscaping yard..


----------



## madness

Wow.

Tank is coming along very well. Gorgeous looking.


----------



## JonWF

Looking forward to updates. I am considering buying a 180p myself so this thread is great.


----------



## RynoParsons

Wow one of my new fav scapes


----------



## jnaz

I am looking forward to see how this tank has matured over the last 5 months.


----------



## Pugman

jnaz said:


> I am looking forward to see how this tank has matured over the last 5 months.


Well not much matured but I've learned what fits into my schedule. First of all I ended up replacing the sand with soil. I found two 2" scratches in my tank and it was either sand that was caught in my algae pad or the Kent metal pro scrapper that I was using. I only use acrylic safe pads now. 
In mid August the baby tears started to lift up in sheets. The roots were very shallow. I ended up nearly tearing all of it out. What was growing on the lava rock was anchored in pretty well. It had grown so fast for me that I'd thought I'd just start over, some what. It's almost completely grown back in now. I have discovered an absolutely great product that I was using on my pond called Real Clear AK ( algae killer). One half ounce treats my 180. I was a way better alternative to excel and it was a lot safer for the fish. Those times when you just can't do a water change and you end up getting some undesirable algae this stuff knocks it out. It also works great in my ponds.
I haven't fully stocked it with fish as I am still trying to figure out what it takes to keep this thing going. I had killed a bunch of Cardinals doing too large of a water change trying to battle algae. I did end up getting 40 Pygmy Cory's. I think they have breed in there as I have some tiny ones cruising around. I'm getting the hang of it so more fish are in the near future. 
From purchasing the one type of moss from Aqua Forrest it has seeded my tank with about seven other species. I will post picture for identifications soon. I am really enjoying the mosses and I have considered ditching the baby tears all together and make this more of a moss tank. They grow at a speed that's easier to maintain with my busy life style.
I'm in the process of setting back up a smaller reef tank. I just couldn't give it up


----------



## Green_Flash

cool build thread


----------



## infamouz23

Subscribed to this awesome thread. Hope the shoulder is doing great!


----------



## kwheeler91

Well thats all fine and dandy, but how about some pics


----------



## Pugman

Some current shots. After mowing the baby tears last night I think I've decided to ditch it an replace it with some moss. In a 20 gallon it would be manageable but not this much.


----------



## pirayaman

Man that looks great don't ditch baby tears


----------



## Pugman

About every two weeks I have to give it a haircut with the curved scissors. This takes around 45 minutes. Then cleaning it up is the hard part. In between that little pieces are always clogging my MP10 and canister intake tubes. It's the root of all of the maintenance to this system. It grows really fast. I had to take out the Dwarf Hair Grass because of how fast it grew. The moss grows at a speed that would be easier for me to keep up with. It also has a great resale value and I thought it would be cool to farm moss for a while.
I had forgot to mention I put in 20 Assassin snails a few months back and now I have hundreds. Good thing my LFS takes them:icon_wink On the plus side I have no more "pest snails"


----------



## shrimpnmoss

Wow, looks great...and I agree about the HC...looks great but a PITA to maintain...little bits all over the tank....moss FTW!


----------



## MARIMOBALL

Amazing! where in the heck have ive been in that last year, that I miss this thread. Someday I will own one of these bad boys. You did the wise choice of getting rid of the reef, but if you ever change your mind and need to fund a reef lmk asap. Ill be folowing this thread from now on.


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman, ALWAYS clean top to bottom direction, NEVER side to side.

Those Kent Plastic orange scrapers, not the yellow metal ones, are what should be used. Softer acrylic pads, again, top to bottom and then the last 2-3", use the scraper with a plastic tip.

Credit cards are pretty good also, and better use for them.

A stack of 100 clean razors also is a good thing to have around, slow smooth top to bottom cleaning should never scratch glass, make sure the blade is always NEW, they are cheap, 180 ADA tanks are not. I use pure ADA AS for this reason also, does not scratch, power sand burps up and you can end up scratching things. 

Snail shells also can come between the pad and the glass causing scratches.
Always apply the least amount of pressure, this will result in shallower scratches if they do occur. The pads= only for soft large area algae on glass and only the upper parts away from the soil. Plastic scrapers below that level and make sure not to get any sediment as you go down towards the line.

I scrape down all the way to the bottom. Then bend the scraper back to pull the sediment back away from the front of the glass. Then slowly lift it out. I do NOT scrape up and down in that area.

If you do these methods, you should have a nice tank for decades.


----------



## plantbrain

Fissidens will take over, but it'll be awhile. 
The "mini Pellia" will do well on the rocks.

It'll take time, but will look nice as that grows in.

Moss: you can also use Anubias, Buce's, Crypts.

Other nice plants that are less trimming: Downoi, Starougyne, even Blyxa is less trouble, Hygro arag, etc.


----------



## kwheeler91

What moss is that in the fourth pic down, right before the fissidens?


----------



## Pugman

kwheeler91 said:


> What moss is that in the fourth pic down, right before the fissidens?


That's the mini pellia I believe. It's my favorite. I'd like to replace the baby tears with it..


----------



## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> That's the mini pellia I believe. It's my favorite. I'd like to replace the baby tears with it..


It's certainly easy and worth more $ wise.


----------



## kwheeler91

Not the MP, the stuff growing upwards.


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## kwheeler91

Fissidens spingapore maybe?


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## h4n

Fissiden geppi or fissiden noblis?

-Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


----------



## Pugman

h4n said:


> Fissiden geppi or fissiden noblis?
> 
> -Sent from my Samsung Note, a "Phablet"


A sad F. Geppi


----------



## sanj

Amazing! really wonderful scape. One that will stand out in my mind for a long time to come.


----------



## Pugman

sanj said:


> Amazing! really wonderful scape. One that will stand out in my mind for a long time to come.


Thanks and now I'm seconds away from tearing out the baby tears. It'll take awhile to look good again but in the end I think it'll look better.


----------



## scbrooks87

Once you finish planting, pics must follow instantly! lol.


----------



## Pugman

scbrooks87 said:


> Once you finish planting, pics must follow instantly! lol.


Ugh....okay. I hate posting pictures that look worse then it once did. This will be a good beginning reference picture before it grows in. I still have some baby tears left in there to rip out. I spent four hours removing sheets of baby tears then sucking out the soil and replacing it with black lava rocks. I figure I can get more flow over it with the lava rock. I ended up having more of the mini pella then I originally thought. Instead of buying more I think I'll just let this grow in.


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## Couesfanatic

Don't stress about the tank, it looks great. You are in a whole different niche here with this style of tank. I can't wait till I get a 180p.

Keep us updated, the whole set-up is right on.


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## kwheeler91

I agree, dont worry bout it. Its not like beautiful tanks come in a box, it takes patience and dedication. Not to mention once that mp fills in its going to be a very impressive carpet given the size of your tank.


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## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> Ugh....okay. I hate posting pictures that look worse then it once did. This will be a good beginning reference picture before it grows in. I still have some baby tears left in there to rip out. I spent four hours removing sheets of baby tears then sucking out the soil and replacing it with black lava rocks. I figure I can get more flow over it with the lava rock. I ended up having more of the mini pella then I originally thought. Instead of buying more I think I'll just let this grow in.


Good move. The before and after pics take time, but are well worth the effort. 
The nice thing with the MP is you use those same rocks much like legos.

So you can move them around, or build stacked rocks covered up higher for scaping. 

This allows you to make some nice canyons and other spots in the scape in different places. 

Gloss would be good for the foreground also, easy to mow compared to HC. 
Hairgrass/UG are both out, they will get infested and be a PITA. H. tenenllus of dwarf sag(true stuff sold here) might work nicely but will be taller than Gloss. Rotala "green" would also work.


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## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> Good move. The before and after pics take time, but are well worth the effort.
> The nice thing with the MP is you use those same rocks much like legos.
> 
> So you can move them around, or build stacked rocks covered up higher for scaping.
> 
> This allows you to make some nice canyons and other spots in the scape in different places.
> 
> Gloss would be good for the foreground also, easy to mow compared to HC.
> Hairgrass/UG are both out, they will get infested and be a PITA. H. tenenllus of dwarf sag(true stuff sold here) might work nicely but will be taller than Gloss. Rotala "green" would also work.


I had Glossto in my first planted tank and it requires a lot of trimming as well. I love how bright green it is. H.Tenenllus ? Got a pic of that one? Google didn't work. I was at Petsmart the other day and I saw some micro Ludwigia that was cool looking (not for this scape)I had never seen it before. I really am liking the C.Parva, how it looks and how it grows. Is there a smaller version? I'm going to have to get some of the powder soil or grind up some because I'm not digging the little ball look in the foreground.


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## Pugman

kwheeler91 said:


> I agree, dont worry bout it. Its not like beautiful tanks come in a box, it takes patience and dedication. Not to mention once that mp fills in its going to be a very impressive carpet given the size of your tank.


I agree once it fills in I will be very pleased. I think one of the reasons I changed out the Baby Tears is that the tank grew in, in three weeks. all the anticipation was over too quick. I was used to buying one inch coral frags and growing them out over years to large colonies. The Mini Pella grows faster then corals but I think it will have a more satisfying affect when it's complete.


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## Pugman

Just an update I swapped out the MP10 for an MP40. :eek5:I also added a 9watt turbo twist in the loop.


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## scbrooks87

Whoa! That looks totally different! I can't wait to see how this thing starts to look as it grows in. I see small similarities in the rock work to what you had before, but so many differences.

Glad you posted pics though, I like being able to follow an aquascape, seeing where it started, and what it becomes. It's inspirational, and like it was said before, shows the hard work, dedication, and patience that went in to it!

-Scott


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## JonWF

Has the tank bowed at all? Is it noticeable? Thanks and great work!


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## Pugman

JonWF said:


> Has the tank bowed at all? Is it noticeable? Thanks and great work!


The tank bows no more then the day I filled it. It does bow tho..


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## mrkookm

Pugman said:


> Just an update I swapped out the MP10 for an MP40. :eek5:I also added a 9watt turbo twist in the loop.



Isn't the MP40 a bit much, why didn't go with an MP20?




Pugman said:


> The tank bows no more then the day I filled it. It does bow tho.


Is that 3/4in glass?


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## Pugman

mrkookm said:


> Isn't the MP40 a bit much, why didn't go with an MP20?
> Mostly because they don't make a MP20 anymore.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that 3/4in glass?


It's a hair bigger then 5/8" I forgot the mm equivalent.


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## Green_Flash

I think it is 15mm.


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## AaronT

Pugman said:


> Well not much matured but I've learned what fits into my schedule. First of all I ended up replacing the sand with soil. I found two 2" scratches in my tank and it was either sand that was caught in my algae pad or the Kent metal pro scrapper that I was using. I only use acrylic safe pads now.


I got a tip recently to try Mr. Clean magic erasers for cleaning the glass in my tanks and I have to say they work quite well for getting the little bit a green dust I get each week and take very little elbow grease. Supposedly they are safe on acrylic as well, but I've not tested that as all of my tanks are glass. Make sure to get the original one as the other types have harsh cleaners and such added to them. 

They also aren't safe to use right at the substrate in which case I recommend the razor blades or an old credit card as suggested before.


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## plantbrain

mrkookm said:


> Isn't the MP40 a bit much, why didn't go with an MP20?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that 3/4in glass?


They no longer sell the MP20's, only the 40's, which are the same size.
You can just dial the 40 down, makes less noise and last longer if you do also.


For cleaning glass:

Plastic scrapers only.
Acrylic pads will scratch if....you get a snail shell or a piece of hard ADA grit from the soil that is sometimes present.

Here's the good part: always clean top to bottom, never up and down, and never side to side.

This is true for the pads and the plastic scraper.

So you only scrub down from the surface.
Never up.

Really tough stuff? A clean new razor blade.


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## mrkookm

plantbrain said:


> They no longer sell the MP20's, only the 40's, which are the same size.
> You can just dial the 40 down, makes less noise and last longer if you do also.
> 
> 
> For cleaning glass:
> 
> Plastic scrapers only.
> Acrylic pads will scratch if....you get a snail shell or a piece of hard ADA grit from the soil that is sometimes present.
> 
> Here's the good part: always clean top to bottom, never up and down, and never side to side.
> 
> This is true for the pads and the plastic scraper.
> 
> So you only scrub down from the surface.
> Never up.
> 
> Really tough stuff? A clean new razor blade.


Thanks for adding that tidbit about the Vortech.

Is Starphire glass any easier to scratch than a regular glass? 



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## Green_Flash

mrkookm said:


> Thanks for adding that tidbit about the Vortech.
> 
> Is Starphire glass any easier to scratch than a regular glass?
> 
> 
> 
> from my iP 5 via Tapa.


Yes it is because of the lower iron content makes it "softer". 

Pugman- How did you like the Fluval plant stratum, I forgot to ask? 
Any ammonia leach or crumbling over time?


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## mrkookm

Green_Flash said:


> Yes it is because of the lower iron content makes it "softer".


Ok, good to know.



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## Pugman

Green_Flash said:


> Yes it is because of the lower iron content makes it "softer".
> 
> Pugman- How did you like the Fluval plant stratum, I forgot to ask?
> Any ammonia leach or crumbling over time?


I ended up ditching it not because there was issues. I couldn't tell the difference between Amano soil or Fluval. I had used Red Seas soil for 6 years with no issues. It does break done a little but I never thought that was a bad thing. People are successful with potting soil so.......

I use black lava rock so the moss is held down better.


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## Pugman

I wonder if the low iron glass is really softer or if it just a rumor. I had heard that before but how would anyone really know? Most folks just regurgitate what someone else said. And how much softer would it actually be. Where could you find that kind of information.


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## mrkookm

Pugman said:


> I wonder if the low iron glass is really softer or if it just a rumor. I had heard that before but how would anyone really know? Most folks just regurgitate what someone else said. And how much softer would it actually be. Where could you find that kind of information.


I'm having a Rimless Starphire tank being built by Miracles and never thought of that, but it can't be nowhere near Acrylic. I had that for a while and it sucks overtime with the scratching.

At least know I know so i'll be careful. Pug I guess you should be too just to be on the safe side.


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## kwheeler91

Take a piece of regular glass and run it across a piece of starphire, or vice versa. Good ol' scratch test.

I have a little bit of anecdotal evidence for you though. I collected a bunch of wave smoothed sandstone once thatwas full of red swirls and thus contained large amounts of iron. It never scratched the glass in my tanks(regular glass). Im not geologist or chemist for that matter, but I dare say that iron content has little if anything to do with the hardness of quartz.

You could try a test with two types of sandstone I suppose, one containing high iron like a red sandstone and one that is low in iron. Just my two cents but really wouldnt worry about it.


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## ChadRamsey

Pugman, i just wanted to say that your original scape in this tank was one of my all time favorite scapes....EVER!!!

So i have HUGE expectations for this new one....Dont let me downroud:


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## kwheeler91

http://chemistry.boisestate.edu/people/richardbanks/glassblowing/glassblowing_history.htm

Some cool info in there.


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## Pugman

mrkookm said:


> I'm having a Rimless Starphire tank being built by Miracles and never thought of that, but it can't be nowhere near Acrylic. I had that for a while and it sucks overtime with the scratching.
> 
> At least know I know so i'll be careful. Pug I guess you should be too just to be on the safe side.


Since I've discovered the two scratches I'm super carful and there are no new ones. I thought I was being carful in the beginning but apparently not. Like Plantbrain said " no metal and up and down strokes only".


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## Pugman

kwheeler91 said:


> Take a piece of regular glass and run it across a piece of starphire, or vice versa. Good ol' scratch test.
> 
> I have a little bit of anecdotal evidence for you though. I collected a bunch of wave smoothed sandstone once thatwas full of red swirls and thus contained large amounts of iron. It never scratched the glass in my tanks(regular glass). Im not geologist or chemist for that matter, but I dare say that iron content has little if anything to do with the hardness of quartz.
> 
> You could try a test with two types of sandstone I suppose, one containing high iron like a red sandstone and one that is low in iron. Just my two cents but really wouldnt worry about it.


I'm not too worried about it now with my super paranoid algae cleaning technics now. If I ever run across a spare piece of low iron glass ill try it.


ChadRamsey said:


> Pugman, i just wanted to say that your original scape in this tank was one of my all time favorite scapes....EVER!!!
> 
> So i have HUGE expectations for this new one....Dont let me downroud:


 thank you, that's quite the compliment. It's really the same scape I just replaced the baby tears with Mini Pellia. The Mini Pellia looks more like a grassy field close up. It's a ton less work too. In the end Ill have a supply of mosses that are in need of this hobby. 



kwheeler91 said:


> http://chemistry.boisestate.edu/people/richardbanks/glassblowing/glassblowing_history.htm
> 
> Some cool info in there.


That's an interesting read. Still no real definitive answer.


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## Green_Flash

Pugman said:


> I ended up ditching it not because there was issues. I couldn't tell the difference between Amano soil or Fluval. I had used Red Seas soil for 6 years with no issues. It does break done a little but I never thought that was a bad thing. People are successful with potting soil so.......
> 
> I use black lava rock so the moss is held down better.


oh so you switched to red sea soil?


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## Pugman

Green_Flash said:


> oh so you switched to red sea soil?


No I "have" used Red Sea before in a different tank. I am now using black lava as a substrate in this tank. I only replaced the soil with lava so the moss would have something to grip on to.


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## Green_Flash

I see.

I did a little research and found a source claiming LIG is hardness about 480 and regular glass is 580. Still not sure where that person got those numbers or what scale they are using.


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## Pugman

Green_Flash said:


> I see.
> 
> I did a little research and found a source claiming LIG is hardness about 480 and regular glass is 580. Still not sure where that person got those numbers or what scale they are using.


Ya who's the source, and what do those numbers mean? It sure dose sound like its true but nobody has any kind of reputable source. Im just more curious at this point. People have asked me before about that and I like to give them a real answer.


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## mrkookm

mrkookm said:


> Isn't the MP40 a bit much, why didn't go with an MP20?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that 3/4in glass?


Pug why did you go with an MP40 and not 2 MP10's instead? I see other members go that route, i.e., single MP40. I would think 2 would allow for better flow control. What are your thoughts on this now that you've got the bigger, did it accomplish what you were missing? Would you have done 2 MP10's instead if you could do it again?



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## TheGuy

mrkookm said:


> Pug why did you go with an MP40 and not 2 MP10's instead? I see other members go that route, i.e., single MP40. I would think 2 would allow for better flow control. What are your thoughts on this now that you've got the bigger, did it accomplish what you were missing? Would you have done 2 MP10's instead if you could do it again?
> 
> 
> 
> from my iP 5 via Tapa.


The glass is to thick for 10s

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2


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## plantbrain

I wish the mp10's could handle 3/4" thick glass, I'd prefer several of those vs 1 big mp40, the mp10's barely, and I mean barely hold on to 1/2" thick glass, 10mm or less is best.
And the mp40's just barely hang onto the 3/4" glass tanks, I add a little extra sticky to the glass to keep them from falling off.

Not as bad as the mp10's on 1/2" glass though.


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## mrkookm

TheGuy said:


> The glass is to thick for 10s
> 
> Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2





plantbrain said:


> I wish the mp10's could handle 3/4" thick glass, I'd prefer several of those vs 1 big mp40, the mp10's barely, and I mean barely hold on to 1/2" thick glass, 10mm or less is best.
> And the mp40's just barely hang onto the 3/4" glass tanks, I add a little extra sticky to the glass to keep them from falling off.
> 
> Not as bad as the mp10's on 1/2" glass though.


Ahhhhhh...now it all makes sense now. Well that tidbit certainly helped me make my decision. Thanks for the input.




from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## Pugman

I was able t get the MP10's to work fine on this tank. I sort of hung it by the cord but it worked well. When you turn the MP 10's up all the way they are very loud. It's pretty much the only noise my tank makes. There was not enough flow by time I turned it down to a comfortable level. I thought two MP40' was overkill. One does the job well. I can get the tank rocking with it. Like making waves


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## mrkookm

Pugman said:


> I can get the tank rocking with it. Like making waves


For $465 it better!



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## Pugman

mrkookm said:


> For $465 it better!
> 
> 
> 
> from my iP 5 via Tapa.


Indeed!


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## Green_Flash

It could be the MOHs scale, scale of mineral hardness. I think manufacturers have the needed chemical composition of the glass somewhere for sure though.


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## Pugman

Some update shots. The moss is growing in nicely.


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## Pugman

These are ipad pics


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## Pugman

One more


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## Green_Flash

Yeah, nice moss growth.


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## dj2606

what is the grass plant on the lower lever in front of the rocks?


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## plantbrain

Lileoposis might be another option over the C parva.
Or buy more C parva and stuff it in there.


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## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> Lileoposis might be another option over the C parva.
> Or buy more C parva and stuff it in there.


The Parva grows nice and slow for me. It has tripled in size in a year.


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## jnaz

Pugman said:


> The Parva grows nice and slow for me. It has tripled in size in a year.


Tripled in size? Wow, that is painfully slow.


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## Pugman

jnaz said:


> Tripled in size? Wow, that is painfully slow.


Low maintenance is key for me right now. I had originally put in Dwarf Hair Grass. That grew like a weed which required too much attention for me. The HC grew too fast as well. I'm pretty fond of the mosses now.


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## Pugman

So I was having problems with my G6's. They would only run at half their flow. I cleaned them throully and still low flow. So I swapped them out for two FX6's. Needless to say I have great flow now. Between the MP40 and the two FX6's this tank is rocking. I think the higher flow is better for the mosses. I also add carbon for the first time. One thing that sucks is I had two inline heaters that I can't use because the FX6's tubing is too big. I think I'm going to make a inline chamber out of PVC and install a heater into that.


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## swoof

you could always go to the hardware store and get adapters to go from the large hose to smaller hose and back up again.


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## cephelix

just finished reading the whole thread and I must say, awesome job on everything pugbrain.

Now if only I could grow plants like you do.....


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## Pugman

swoof said:


> you could always go to the hardware store and get adapters to go from the large hose to smaller hose and back up again.


Once you restrict the hose size you really reduce the overall flow. I put a heater inside the tank for now.


cephelix said:


> just finished reading the whole thread and I must say, awesome job on everything pugbrain.
> 
> Now if only I could grow plants like you do.....


"Pugbrain"?? That's a combination of of Plantbrain and Pugman. Funny


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## cephelix

hahaha..my bad....pugman....
have high regards for the both of you guys...
having the resources and the guts to go all out


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## Pugman

Like I said earlier I had to ditch the Hydor inline heaters. Ehiems 300 watt heaters claim to heat up to 260 gallons so I could get away with one of them. I really didn't want to see it in the aquarium so I made this.


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## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> Like I said earlier I had to ditch the Hydor inline heaters. Ehiems 300 watt heaters claim to heat up to 260 gallons so I could get away with one of them. I really didn't want to see it in the aquarium so I made this.


Seems a larger 500-800 Watt Titanium heater would handle the seals better without breakage and provide ample wattage for heating.
The issue is not bad during spring/summer/Fall, but during winter and AFTER water changes if the temps are a different(lower), this will place alot of current and demand on the heater for a few hours after the water change, this easily can fry heaters. 

You can also T off this set up and add a 2nd heater.


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## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> Seems a larger 500-800 Watt Titanium heater would handle the seals better without breakage and provide ample wattage for heating.
> The issue is not bad during spring/summer/Fall, but during winter and AFTER water changes if the temps are a different(lower), this will place alot of current and demand on the heater for a few hours after the water change, this easily can fry heaters.
> 
> You can also T off this set up and add a 2nd heater.


The tank is 170 gallons and he heater is rated far beyond that. I have never seen a heater over 300 watts that has lasted very long. I personally have gone through a dozen high wattage heaters and everyone crapped out regardless of the brand. Also titanium heaters are not very efficient compared to glass. I always make the water temp a little warmer upon returning into the tank. If I start burning out heaters il just run two of these like you said.


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## Pugman

I had some cyanoacrylate glue in my refrigerator left over from my reef tank and thought of " fragging" some moss. I have noticed that when I break up the mini pella it does grow a little faster. The pieces I have currently are growing into little mound shapes and I'd like to see it grow more uniformly flat. So I pulled out some pieces that were on the floor and growing in odd place and went for an experiment. I'll post the progress as it folds out.


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## Pugman

This is what I got from just that little bit. I could of thinned it out quit a bit more but there was already an amazing amount form what I had.


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## Pugman

And finally this is what it looks like place. I should of took a before pic of that area but you get the idea.


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## vvDO

Pugman said:


> Like I said earlier I had to ditch the Hydor inline heaters. Ehiems 300 watt heaters claim to heat up to 260 gallons so I could get away with one of them. I really didn't want to see it in the aquarium so I made this.


Do you run this on a controller?


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## Pugman

No I don't. I was thinking of drilling a hole in it to view the indicator light.


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## plantbrain

Eheim claims that, but it's not been my experience, also, you need more heater if you use a wet/dry and/or an open top, there's more transfer or warmer water out.

They are good heaters, but I'd add another if you are pushing above 82F.
This is a non issue right now and till maybe Nov.


----------



## Pugman

plantbrain said:


> Eheim claims that, but it's not been my experience, also, you need more heater if you use a wet/dry and/or an open top, there's more transfer or warmer water out.
> 
> They are good heaters, but I'd add another if you are pushing above 82F.
> This is a non issue right now and till maybe Nov.


Ehiem rates their 300 Watt heater at 159-300 gallons. What would your experience rate it at?


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## plantbrain

Pugman said:


> Ehiem rates their 300 Watt heater at 159-300 gallons. What would your experience rate it at?


Toasted one on my 180.

I use 2 - 300 watters these days, one frys, I have a back up till the new one shows up. They are titaniums, but I had Ehiem's in there, they have long been my preferred heater.

If you need to raise the temp say 15 F, vs say 4 F, BIG difference, so ambient temps make a large difference in how you rate things, same issue and even more so with chillers and pull down temp requirements.

It's 68F in the winter at our place and the temp is 84F in the 180 due to the cards......open top, wet/dry filter......

This is the Largest electrical cost for most aquarist also, (heating all that water). Sometimes if you have a few tanks, heating one room is cheaper.

So I rate them depending on the pull up temperature. 300 Gallons? Sure, if the temp is only a few degrees different. 100 Gallon in a cold room? Likely okay.


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## globali

Very nice journey & results.


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## ChadRamsey

come on pug, how about an update


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## kwheeler91

Pugman if your out there post a couple pics for our viewing pleasure


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## swoof

last time he was online was 10-04-13 (well at least logged into PT)


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## mopani

bump so ill remember to find after class, as I can book mark on lab pc


----------



## plantbrainer

*Pugman tank closed*

Hello Everyone
Pugman's tank seams gave out due to algae /moss growth in-between the silicone and glass. He gave up the hobby and broke the glass tank and chopped up the wooden stand, I think it was carved into pieces and thrown into trash can. Well, please don't lose hope. Things like this happen in this hobby again and again. When one starts a tank, then that's the only way it end's up. The great creative failures. Pugman closed the tank and retired from the hobby. Moreover, he said he gave up the hobby the day he threw those small black lava stone on the nice looking huge rocks as fillers. As soon as this was done the whole tank started looking like crap. Before he closed, there were atleast 300 scratches on that soft iron free glass. 
Fellow hobbyists, please don't give up.
cheers


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## Pugman

Lol I just came across this post. The baby tears made a mess when I had to prune them constantly. But truth be told I am a reefer. It’s been a reef tank ever since. Zero scratches from the lava. This poster is a total tool.


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## Pugman

I reread this tread as its been a few years. My son was less then one years old when I built that setup. He just turned twelve a few weeks ago. I kind of have the urge to make this a fresh water tank again. Saltwater is cool but does require a lot of time and id like to simplify my hobbies.


----------

