# Making aquasoil into chocolate milk



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Do large water changes daily till it clears.

Now take your tank and think about if it was 12 ft long........that';s what we dealt with.

Diatom filters etc might take care of it for a little while

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Shadow (Sep 19, 2006)

good luck.Im sure Ill be in the same boat. I love changes and Im doing ADA in my 120g tank later this spring. So it will likely end up like that for me as well.

Like posted above just keep doing water changes


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*wow*

Thanks for the replies guys. I will keep up the water changes and thank my lucky stars it's not a 12 foot tank!


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

I thought I wanted to try AS. But after reading all of the horror stories over the past couple of months (turns to muck, smells bad, gives you a rash, melts plants, soak it for weeks, the expense, etc, etc, etc) I think I'll avoid it.

How can so many people sing such praise for this stuff? I think Amano has put out a product that was not fully researched.


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## dipan (Dec 3, 2006)

EdTheEdge said:


> I thought I wanted to try AS. But after reading all of the horror stories over the past couple of months (turns to muck, smells bad, gives you a rash, melts plants, soak it for weeks, the expense, etc, etc, etc) I think I'll avoid it.
> 
> How can so many people sing such praise for this stuff? I think Amano has put out a product that was not fully researched.


Yeah, those are hassles, but the bottom line is plant growth, no? It is worth it to many for the plant growth. May not be worth it for some ...


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

It is the lack of one's ability to follow instructions.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

I have had zero problems with mine in a 55 gallon. Is it mushy; yes, its a clay, thats what they do. Is it cloudy in the beginning? Yep, but most gravels are to some extent. This just happens to be the extreme end of the spectrum. Before you give up, let your filter do its job for a little longer. Then make a judgment.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*it's clay*

You're right about following directions, but this in not exactly a user friendly product. Aqua soil is clay, and not all fired clay either. Many plants love to grow in clay, but clay particles can stay in suspension a long, long time, that's what "clay slip" is. I think aquasoil can work well if you follow instructions exactly. Those instructions include things like trimming plants off at the base rather than pulling out the roots. This is from Aqua Forest. It seems that one really has to change the way a tank is handled to have success with this stuff. If you don't like to move things much, if you are willing to put in all your initial plants right away, then trim but not replant; basically if you have a restrained and pre-planned approach rather than my exploratory kid-in-the-sandbox approach it can probably work well for you.


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## EdTheEdge (Jan 25, 2007)

> If you don't like to move things much, if you are willing to put in all your initial plants right away, then trim but not replant


And yet another drawback. Perhaps ADA should include precautions along with the instructions???


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

I find no problem in moving things around...


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*replanting*

Thanks eklikewhoa, you are giving me hope. Perhaps after a bacterial colony exists in the substrate and the plants suck up some of the silt it becomes more stable. To others: I would listen to eklikewhoa rather than me as I am just starting out with aquasoil and just thinking and talking about it but not experienced. I could easily be wrong.


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

I uproot plants in my Aquasoil all the time, I just take it slow...
Never been a problem. Sure a bit of a cloud comes up, but the water goes back to crystal clear in a matter of hours.

Supposedly this could be because I have extremely soft water? I've heard AS is more troublesome the harder the water gets...

I would never want to use it in a situation where I would be stepping on it though:icon_wink


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

eklikewhoa said:


> I find no problem in moving things around...


In some tanks, neither do I, but I have 9 tanks with it, some do, some don't.
I think is smaller systems, if you follow the suggestions, it works fine.

I still like and use it, but it's not forgiving for folks that redo things,
It is woefully inappropriate for large tanks like a 12ft and 16ft tanks.

None of these tanks, Amano's larger tanks are noteably missing the AS, can really achieve 100% with it.

You can argue with me till the cows home about this, but I have spent a logn of labor, time and energy trying to rectify things in larger systems without any decent results.

In smaller tanks, you cannot compare on equal terms, there are trade offs.
For smaller tanks, I still suggest using it.

Folks hear one side and then do not think about the other.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Minsc said:


> Supposedly this could be because I have extremely soft water? I've heard AS is more troublesome the harder the water gets...
> 
> I would never want to use it in a situation where I would be stepping on it though:icon_wink


No, we used hard La tap and we also could use pure RO, there was no relationship ever seen after many months.

Walking on clay balls makes clay bricks, not mush. 
Take some and make a ball with it sometime.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## slickwillislim (Nov 9, 2005)

I believe someone thought it was Black earth along with some other things. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem

I have no idea if it really is it was just some ones suggestions. I think it was Freeman on APC.

I haven't had any clouding problems but I haven't had it that long.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*new experiment*

I talked to a friend of mine who is a ceramic sculptor and she explained to me that when you make clay slip you mix a powdered clay in water, she said that if you try to mix regular clay in it doesn't go into solution as well. So I'm trying an experiment: I took all the water out of my tank and I'm going to let the aquasoil dry out a bit, not all the way, but so it skins over on top and hopefully the loose particles will get stuck to the fired clay balls or to each other as a wet clay further down. Then I will put the water in carefully and see how it goes.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You might consider a baking/firing.
Then sift through a specific sized mesh to get out the fines.
Lot of work, I do not think the drying will do much, I've done similar things when moving and left the gravel sitting out exposed to air for some time and then reset the tank up. Not any difference I could tell looking back.

I know this product, although ADA claims otherwise, is not baked at high temps, it cannot be. The NH4 is rapidly oxidized when that is done in the presence of O2........... and it does not take that high of temps to make clay hard.

And yes, it's mostly clay. 
You might try taking a small amount a baking it in the over.
No one 's home right now so I am

However, anaerobic oxidation also occurs for NH4 biologically as well:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/61/4/1246


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## paradise (Dec 11, 2003)

Tom, Amano does use AS in his big tank at home. We just watched the presentation and it does have aquasoil in the tank.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*determination*

Argh, this girl is NOT baking aquasoil in her oven:hihi: 
However, I did just go out and buy a bunch of activated carbon, a filter bag, and some extra fine filter material for my ehiem. I don't have a diatom filter... or is that something I can add to the ehiem as well? I HAVE to try and make this aquasoil work... it cost too much! The tank is dry for now because my CO2 regulator broke. I seem to be going backwards, sigh!

Hey Tom, how did your aquasoil brownies turn out?


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*a pic of my ada mud*

This is after a 100% water change following letting it dry a while. I filled the tank with a couple of siphon hoses lead into a plastic cup that was weighted with a rock and sitting on a plate. I did experimentally touch the soil a few times and it would plume brown deltas of silt into the water column. LFS says I should use a plastic bag next time to fill over.
This time I've got activated carbon filling one of the trays in my canister, and some finer filter floss topping the other two.


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## Storm_Rider (Sep 30, 2006)

mine looks like that after unrooting plants. sure is a pita to get clear again, but it will get there sooner or later..usually later.. i wish you the best of luck and patience


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

That's what mine looked like after a replant this weekend. I don't have AS but some florabase and Eco Complete. Looked like soup for an evening then the next morning pretty clear. After a week of settling I just have to rub the plants a bit to get the "dust" off but looks to be settling nicely.

The florabase was definitely the cause of the cloud but it's transitory with proper filtration. Since you picked up some new filter material you may want to clean the filter early and get it back on track.

Make sure to do some small WC over the next few weeks as this is apparently the way to start a new AS tank.

I still have some sitting in the garage waiting a new tank. So I'm watching how things progress.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*more wc*

I did a 50% water change right after the photo and it looked a bit clearer. I also figured out how to lower the flow on my eheim ecco by turning the outgoing shut-off valve. I also trimmed the intake tube so it is higher off the substrate (about 5") and the outflow is directed at a sidewall at the surface. However by morning the mud was back. Sigh.

I don't want to plant in this murk. I'm going to leave the water in this time hoping a bacterial colony develops and glues things together. I'm dosing with "special blend" bacteria.


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## macclellan (Dec 22, 2006)

it amazes me that people pay so much for Japanese rabbit poo


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*tired of wc*

I just did another 50% water change. The water is still cloudy. I'm going to give it the suggested 2 weeks with changes every day or every other day.
Trying to be patient.


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## eklikewhoa (Aug 29, 2006)

macclellan said:


> it amazes me that people pay so much for Japanese rabbit poo



and American rabbit poo is cheaper?


Florabase...12lbs for $21.99
Aquasoil....9L for $26.00


anyone ever noticed that there is a weight difference in the different offered substrates and when it's compared Aquasoil in some cases is actually cheaper. it's just not per bag you know.


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## Bbc84 (Dec 25, 2006)

Toss in a bag of Purigen. My 7 gallon looked like that when i first planted, and when i redid my aquascape. I put in a bag of purigen, bag of activated charcoal, filterfloss pad, and a bag of matrix as media for my filter. Did 25%-50% water changes every day, and it was cleared up in 2 days or so.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

At the plant club meeting Bill mentioned using a plastic bag over the substrate to keep the dust down. I had never thought of that. Now he is using soil master so different substrate all together. However Soilmaster is really light and has the looks of baked clay. So in a sense the same thing...

Main thing is keep your filter cleaned out during the couple of weeks otherwise all you'll have in there is AS dust.


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## Storm_Rider (Sep 30, 2006)

the plastic bag does works great, especially if you have a complex hardscape making it hard to use a plate. 


funny thing is, i redid my little tank again and the aquasoil did not cloud at all. if any did fluff up, it quickly settled back into the substrate very fast. i was amazed. i think i might have ruined my AS some how


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## Yoshi (Apr 5, 2007)

I'll second the purigen. I was messing around in my tank and made a mess as well, threw in some filter floss, and a bag of purigen and over the weekend the water turned crystal clear.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*a bag of...*

Thanks for the purigen idea, I'll give it a try. I have a question because I'm new to cannister filters. If I throw a fliter bag in my canister filter the basket is round and the bag is square so there is some area around the bag... should I do something about this or will the water go thru well enough? Thanks for all your advice.


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## Bbc84 (Dec 25, 2006)

water should go through fine if its just bio media, purigen, or carbon.


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## kzr750r1 (Jun 8, 2004)

monkeygills said:


> Thanks for the purigen idea, I'll give it a try. I have a question because I'm new to cannister filters. If I throw a fliter bag in my canister filter the basket is round and the bag is square so there is some area around the bag... should I do something about this or will the water go thru well enough? Thanks for all your advice.


Enough will flow through...Let us knowhow it worked out.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*flunked out of aquasoil boot camp*

Well, I feel a little embarassed. I think I lack the proper character to use aquasoil. I am too impatient. Today I pulled all the aquasoil/powersand/sand mix out of my tank and rinsed in it a mesh collander using a garden hose. I know it isn't supposed to be washed but I had read that some people wash it when they are keeping CRS and I thought it might help. No matter how much I rinsed the water was brown. I took a bead of aquasoil between my fingers and squished it... it squished flat just like a ball of clay. The water oozing from the washed soil was as dark brown as ever. When I went back inside and saw my muddy tank with several inches of brown water and sludge in it I felt a sinking feeling. I began to clean the tank out completely. 

When it was clean I looked at it and I knew I wasn't going to put the aquasoil back in. Next to it was sitting the 10 gallon sand substrate clippings tank I had set up the right before I got my ADA tank. It was crystal clear. 

Tonight my ADA tank is full again... it has a sand substrate and it looks great. I know I won't be able to grow all the plants I could have in aquasoil, and I won't experience the explosive growth it can provide. But I know how to do a sand tank and I'm happy...


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*redid again*

Today after talking to LFS I redid it again, putting a layer of aquasoil under most of the sand (except in the front). It worked great and the tank is up!
Thanks to everyone for your help.


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## thatguy (Oct 11, 2005)

if anyone of you Bay Area folk are not part of SFBAAPS, check them out. Lots of guys from baaps use ADA products and you can get in depth answers from them face to face at meets.


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## Yoshi (Apr 5, 2007)

It looks a lot better this way, let's hope you don't change ur mind and go sloshing around again!


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*no sloshing!*

Thanks Yoshi... I'm really relieved it finally seems to be doing OK. :icon_lol:


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## Storm_Rider (Sep 30, 2006)

you can't wash aquasoil under pressure, it's almost like normal soil so if you wash it too hard, it'll just break and crumble apart as you noticed. so is this the same aquasoil as before or did you buy more?

looking good though, could i trouble you for a full frontal shoot?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Looks decent!
Good plan also.

Be careful when uprooting, let the tank settle in and crank the CO2.
Do frequent water changes(2-3x a week 50% for 1-4 weeks and dose)

Add more plant biomass if possible.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*thanks!*

Thanks for all your help guys. I just added more plant biomass by floating some wisteria. I plan to add bolbitus and x-mas moss to the wood but I expect it to fungus first so I'm waiting on that. I'm running the lights (120 watts CP over a 40 gallon, 25 gallons actual water) about seven hours a day to start. I have it broken up (for viewing): a few hours in the AM and a few hours in the PM. CO2 is on a solenoid to match.

I need help figuring out dosing. There is TOO much info on that. I don't have ferts yet and I'm a bit overwealmed. All I've used before is Kent freshwater plant and an occaisonal Kent micro. Never done dry ferts. I should wait a couple weeks to fert, shouldn't I?

I'll add a full frontal pic soon. But the 3/4 view is really the angle I'll be mostly looking at it from.


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*guilty of aquasoil abuse*

I used the same aquasoil under the sand. I just want to say I think aquasoil is a great product judging by other people's tanks and the fabulous store tanks at Aqua Forest. I think I just really abused mine when I broke down the tank that first time and vigorously stirred the aquasoil, powersand rocks, and sand together. I was very physical with it and probably damaged the skin on the partially fired beads of aquasoil. The first time I set up the tank the water was brown but clear like tea, or like a blackwater tank. If I had stopped there and just done water changes I think the tank would have cleared. Only after the "abuse" did the water turn both brown and persistently cloudy despite many water changes. So I hope others can learn from my mistake! A light touch is all it takes (oh, and you probably don't want to walk on it.:icon_smil)


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## Glouglou (Feb 14, 2006)

*Very Interesting*

Aquasoil have no more secret.
This is a mix of balanced nutrient and oxyde mix to a natural clay and fired at low temp.
Meaning it will leach more nutrient, faster than something like Turface that is fired at high temp but is CEC capacity is probably way lower and probably decrease with time.

And tell me if I am wrong, if use alone it have probably a certain tendancy to become more compact with time???


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## Marc (Oct 13, 2004)

Glouglou said:


> And tell me if I am wrong, if use alone it have probably a certain tendancy to become more compact with time???


I haven't noticed compacting. almost 2 years using it. Ive never had problems using it. Never turned into chocolate milk either.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

That solution looks great and I really like the tank! My only concern (but since its at the back of the tank it probably won't matter much) is that the fine sand will end up on the bottom with the AS more on top, over time. Smaller particles always settle on the bottom.

What kind of sand is it? ADA?


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

*sand*

I'm not sure what kind of sand it is, my LFS buys it somewhere and sells it in clear plastic bags. They say it is #20 size. I think it is some kind of sifted silica. The particles appear to be one size, neither larger nor smaller. Because the particles don't keep grading down even though it is very fine it tends not to compact or get anerobic much, especially with MTS in there. I've used it by itself lots of times. I do think the aquasoil will come up as I work with it. I wish the two colors were closer. Already some aquasoil has come up... it looks like black rocks on my sand substrate. I've capped flourite with this sand and the mix looked really good, but the Aquasoil would look better with darker sand. Now I wish I'd bought the lighter color ADA soil. Oh well...
it's all an experiment. Thanks for the compliment on the tank!


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## sNApple (Nov 6, 2005)

i like chocolate milk


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I like soy chocolate milk
Odwalla... in particular.
Of course a Jamba juice is also dang tasty after a hot day.

You may simply vacuum off any AS that pops up.
Eventually you might consider siphoning off the sand, then pushing the AS into various planted sections, then wash the sand and do a split sand foreground and planted rear design.

That works better over time.

It's not that hard to do and keep the two separate.
If you leave them on top of eachother, they will mix though.
Then removal and separation will much tougher.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

monkeygills said:


> I've capped flourite with this sand and the mix looked really good


Oh, now you got me thinking. What's the name of the LFS. I might order some...


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

Betowess said:


> Oh, now you got me thinking. What's the name of the LFS. I might order some...


It's Ocean Aquarium. I doubt they'd ship sand though...:icon_conf


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## monkeygills (Apr 5, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Eventually you might consider siphoning off the sand, then pushing the AS into various planted sections, then wash the sand and do a split sand foreground and planted rear design.


That's a good idea! I'm trying a 10 gallon with a split design right now. It's growing a lovely bacterial cloud and maybe some green water...


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## sunmiztres (Mar 20, 2006)

I have read this entire thread and many others. Many people say to follow the directions but I have not read any directions on how to properly set it up so it does not turn water into chocolate milk. I just ordered 4 bags and they will be here tomorrow. Is their directions on the bag? Does anyone have any suggestions or links on how to set it up correctly? I have only used flourite and gravel in the past.
Thanks


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## jasa73 (Jun 3, 2007)

I'm in the same situation. I'm awaiting my order of AS Amazonia II. It's my understanding that AS Amazonia II is to be a bit less cloudy than the original but time will tell. I'm actually planning to put EcoComplete on top as I've had great luck with this substrate. 

I obsessively researched the AS before deciding to give it a go.. and did find this on the Aqua Forest Aquarium Website which gives layout tips...

http://www.adana-usa.com/index.php?main_page=afa_aboutpa

My take away was they recommended filling up the water only up to the level of the substrate to moisten it when planting. I imagine that makes planting easier without having to submerge yourself up to the elbows in your aquarium and have all that water carrying the substrate about. Personally, I always misjudge where im planting when the aquarium is full due to refraction so this method appeals to me on two counts. Of course once your finished planting you'll have to fill carefully and some substrate will come up. But i imagine it will be less than digging around with all that water. I'm going to give it a try.

Anyone else try planting this way with AS?


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