# Why cant i keep shrimp alive? *idk what the problem is*



## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

Every shrimp i ever buy dies. im not dosing anything and theres no drastic changes in water parameters. All of my NO2, NO3, and NH4 is at zero. pH is at 6.8. im not dosing because when ever i dose my shrimp die. and now theyre dying anyway. ive lost 2 amanos since i got home. i cant check the CO2 ppm cause the drop checker still isnt here (ordered it about 2 weeks ago!) but since the fish are fine and none of them are gaspnig or even leaving the plants i think its okay. I cant keep special ordering amanos cause i'll run out of money! Oh yeah, and im down to 8 cherries that i can count. 

Please help :icon_redf this is really making me upset at this hobby!


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

I know how you feel.

Whats in your tank, what kind of decoration is in there?
How old is your tank?

It might be something leeching harmful stuff into your water that you might not know.

Just watch out, fish can take out shrimps as well.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

its my 20 long. i dont think the fish are a problem, most of the shrimp are bigger than them. tannins arent harmful... i dont think? and this scape is about a month old i think but the filter media is about 5 months old. 

its got timed, pressurized CO2, lights and AS so the params should be relatively stable, right?


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## Natty (Apr 2, 2008)

chris127 said:


> its my 20 long. i dont think the fish are a problem, most of the shrimp are bigger than them. tannins arent harmful... i dont think? and this scape is about a month old i think but the filter media is about 5 months old.
> 
> its got timed, pressurized CO2, lights and AS so the params should be relatively stable, right?


 
Alright this is what I think you should do:

you can do one or all, its up to you.

1. Put an airline in there at night and see if the shrimps are any better? I think you should get a seperate 10 gallon tank and keep your shrimps in there, where there's no fish, no ferts, no CO2.
2. I've been having similiar issues like you, took my driftwoods out, and now everything seems better. It might not be bad for most people, but maybe your driftwood is contaminated with something that most people are not familiar with or is rarely encountered. Take it out and do a partial water change and see if it gets better.
3. Many people have more success with keeping shrimps in aged aquariums. 1 month might be a bit soon, but I'm not sure about this too much.

As for decorations, I only use rocks now. Lava rocks atm. Double check ur test kit with some tap water to see if they're still accurate....I don't see your parameters as an issue as long as it stays 0 nitrite 0 ammonia and about 1-20nitrates...they can probably handle higher nitrates but the lower the better.

I heard if its CO2 excess, than shrimps will start nose diving from top to bottom of tank.


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

That's really strange...

How are you acclimating them?


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## Arakkis (Dec 7, 2007)

Test for metals like Copper


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

chris127 said:


> its got timed, pressurized CO2, lights and *AS *so the params should be relatively stable, right?


 A 1 month old tank with Aquasoil should not have shrimp _or_ fish in it yet. Aquasoil is known to leech NH3 for weeks. It does not matter that the filter media is 5 months old.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> A 1 month old tank with Aquasoil should not have shrimp _or_ fish in it yet. Aquasoil is known to leech NH3 for weeks. It does not matter that the filter media is 5 months old.


Sorry to hijack this thread:

Are we talking about the Shultz Aquasoil or the ADA stuff? I have the Shultz stuff and, if it is that, frankly, this really pisses me off. *The bag says it is, at the very least, fish safe!*  (Not to mention that ADA promotes their substrate for Dwarf shrimp, don't they?)

I've had scuds in one of my setups for quite some time with little or no ill effect, but I have a feeling that the Aquasoil that I was using has killed quite a few shrimp without me realizing it. What bugs me is that not only were the scuds chugging along fine, but my blackworms--which are sensitive as well in their own way--are thriving. So it sounds like Aquasoil is, at best, a calculated risk when keeping shrimp and best to be avoided?

Thanks...


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

No, it's fine to use. In fact, many shrimp keepers..even CRS keepers, use Amazonia Aquasoil. It just needs to be *fully* cycled, upwards of 6 weeks.


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> No, it's fine to use. In fact, many shrimp keepers..even CRS keepers, use Amazonia Aquasoil. It just needs to be *fully* cycled, upwards of 6 weeks.


I was planning on getting some of the ADA stuff so this is very good to know. Whew... how about the Shultz stuff, anyone know about that?

Thanks!


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Also, it should be noted that during the cycling process with AS, alot more water changes should be performed than on tanks with inert substrate. Many change water daily.


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## DBL TAP (Apr 27, 2008)

I feel your pain. I am responsible for shrimp genocide. I wish there was one definitive source for shrimp care.

i wish you luck. Please keep us posted.


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## Ebichua (May 13, 2008)

You don't have to do water changes during AS cycling. It's pointless, wastes a ton of water and an individual's time. 
AS leaks ammonia during the initial set-up. We NEED that ammonia to start up the cycling process. It makes no sense to why we should suck it out. I have set up plenty of AS tanks and at first, I did water changes for the first few days. Then I realized, why the hell am I doing this? So I stopped. How long did it take for me to cycle the tank? 4 weeks.
From then on, I stopped doing WCs until it was fully cycled, then I do a large WC before adding in inverts/fish. 

People report saying it took me 4-6 weeks of cycling with AS, even WITH water changes. I don't do water changes and still get the same results in terms of speed (Though mine seems to complete at 4 weeks). 

Conclusion? NEEDING water changes for initial set-ups of AS is a myth.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> A 1 month old tank with Aquasoil should not have shrimp _or_ fish in it yet. Aquasoil is known to leech NH3 for weeks. It does not matter that the filter media is 5 months old.


i test for ammonia every day, always 0. is there some invisible ammonia i dont know about?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> No, it's fine to use. In fact, many shrimp keepers..even CRS keepers, use Amazonia Aquasoil. It just needs to be *fully* cycled, upwards of 6 weeks.


its been cycled for a while before i put anything in. i even used cycled AS to seed this AS. i didnt add inverts until the fish had been thriving in it for a week.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> Also, it should be noted that during the cycling process with AS, alot more water changes should be performed than on tanks with inert substrate. Many change water daily.


i do change about 20% of the water every other day, always treated with prime.


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## cwilfinger (Jul 8, 2008)

AEWHistory said:


> I've had scuds in one of my setups for quite some time with little or no ill effect, but I have a feeling that the Aquasoil that I was using has killed quite a few shrimp without me realizing it.


 
I have had problems with scuds and have found that they will thrive in an uncycled tank. My tank had ammonia at 1.0, and my nirite was at 5.0, and nitrate was at 10. And they thrived in that! The only way I got rid of them was freezing them. So scuds are not a good indication of good water conditions.

I had trouble with my rcs tank and found that if I had switched over to prime ( I was using Topfin Water Conditioner), and double the doseage, it took care of my problem. Maybe do a double dose on your prime the next time you do a wc. See if that'll make a difference.....


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## kotoeloncat (Apr 12, 2006)

cwilfinger said:


> I have had problems with scuds and have found that they will thrive in an uncycled tank. My tank had ammonia at 1.0, and my nirite was at 5.0, and nitrate was at 10. And they thrived in that! The only way I got rid of them was freezing them. So scuds are not a good indication of good water conditions.


I dont think this is accurate, 

basically things you* dont *want in your tank survives in bad water condition, but that doesnt mean that its an indicator or bad water conditions.

If scuds can survive in bad water, it will thrive and explode in good water condition


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Ebichua said:


> You don't have to do water changes during AS cycling. It's pointless, wastes a ton of water and an individual's time.
> AS leaks ammonia during the initial set-up. We NEED that ammonia to start up the cycling process. It makes no sense to why we should suck it out. I have set up plenty of AS tanks and at first, I did water changes for the first few days. Then I realized, why the hell am I doing this? So I stopped. How long did it take for me to cycle the tank? 4 weeks.
> From then on, I stopped doing WCs until it was fully cycled, then I do a large WC before adding in inverts/fish.
> 
> ...


My AS leeched enough ammonia to kill Hygro and Java ferns when I didn't keep up with the daily water changes. :icon_eek:


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## Kris (Feb 27, 2004)

i feel your pain. i read all the time about people having enough cherry shrimp to worry about inbreeding or that their amanos are 6 year old bohemiths. i consider it a good thing if my shrimp live through the month.
like you, i have a cycled tank that is very established with no dosing and happy plants and fish.
i have started reading ShrimpNow!!! as a forum to look for info.
i am going to wait until after the new year to try adding shrimp to my tank again.


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## botan (Sep 23, 2007)

Chris127 and Kris,

Quickest solution - dump a bunch of Prime or other quaility water conditioner in the tank.
Ta - Da.
If that don't work you might need a vet.


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## bibbels (Sep 29, 2008)

Be careful there, too much prime can be deadly.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

botan said:


> Chris127 and Kris,
> 
> Quickest solution - dump a bunch of Prime or other quaility water conditioner in the tank.
> Ta - Da.
> If that don't work you might need a vet.


 LOL..
"yes, I'd like to make an appt."
"yes, maam. Which pet will we be seeing today?"
"um...my shrimp":confused1:


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

Ebichua said:


> You don't have to do water changes during AS cycling. It's pointless, wastes a ton of water and an individual's time.
> AS leaks ammonia during the initial set-up. We NEED that ammonia to start up the cycling process. It makes no sense to why we should suck it out. I have set up plenty of AS tanks and at first, I did water changes for the first few days. Then I realized, why the hell am I doing this? So I stopped. How long did it take for me to cycle the tank? 4 weeks.
> From then on, I stopped doing WCs until it was fully cycled, then I do a large WC before adding in inverts/fish.
> 
> ...


Hmmmm.... that makes alot of sense to me. Frankly, has anyone ever tried this:

Setup a tank using some cycled filter material and/or substrate and put the ADA Aquasoil in another container, say, a plastic tub, for a month or so, until the ammonia leeches out (maybe put some bio material in with it as well...)? Then, only after the substrate material becomes ammonia safe would you slowly add it on top of the thin layer of existing tank substrate. Seems to me, this kills two birds with one stone: you don't need to wait so long to employ your tank and you don't have AquaSoil leeching poison into your animal's environment before that environ. can handle it.

BTW- a sig. after your name does make you WAY cooler....  
Your sig. always reminds me of the last words ascribed to Poncho Villa: "Tell them I said something...."


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## AEWHistory (Nov 6, 2008)

cwilfinger said:


> I have had problems with scuds and have found that they will thrive in an uncycled tank. My tank had ammonia at 1.0, and my nirite was at 5.0, and nitrate was at 10. And they thrived in that! The only way I got rid of them was freezing them. So scuds are not a good indication of good water conditions.
> 
> I had trouble with my rcs tank and found that if I had switched over to prime ( I was using Topfin Water Conditioner), and double the doseage, it took care of my problem. Maybe do a double dose on your prime the next time you do a wc. See if that'll make a difference.....


Actually, the scuds aren't the/a problem, I'm cultivating them as food and scavengers, but your point is well taken. I'll have to keep that in mind, thank you.


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## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

Once the more common issues are addressed, we look at CO2. I've seen people with shrimp and CO2 have problems, and once they stop using CO2, their shrimp survive. You see at night, live plants use oxygen and give off CO2. During the day, the opposite happens during photosynthesis. Also sometimes CO2 timers do not work right and keep going at night, or the CO2 might have a small leak which you don't notice. 

Cycle a new filter for 4 weeks, then put the shrimp in a new tank with no CO2 and see what happens. Or turn off your CO2 for 2 weeks and see if the shrimp perk up. 

The other thing you must watch out for are test strips, which expire 6 months after you open them. Also, drop kits tend to go bad 2 years after you open them. And yes, I have even bought (ignorantly at the time) a strip kit that was expired, from the clearance shelf. Don't even bother with test strips, they are expensive per test and expire quickly.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i have co2 and i cant excatly turn it off because it will be algae heaven. the drop checker is a nice green, which means a good level of co2. i use drop tests only and i usually always test twice


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

its happening again. received 11 snowballs today, drip acclimated them for 30 minutes, 2 babies/juvies are dead and a couple more are spinning and falling on their backs and then getting back up and doing it again. 

all params 0 and ph 7.4, same ph that the water they came in was at. kh 9 and gh 0 (last tested last week) temp 76.2*

WHYYYYY?! im about to give up....


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Arakkis said:


> Test for metals like Copper


 Did you test for copper?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

lfs doesnt have any copper tests, would there be copper in well water? 

i kept a colony of 20+ rcs alive a couple of months ago for a while until they all got eaten. never had any spontaneous deaths. 

4 dead
2 on the prefilter
5 MIA in rocks/wood


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

im pushing my dad into getting an ro/di filter because this is really depressing me. i hate killing things


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

chris127 said:


> lfs doesnt have any copper tests, would there be copper in well water?
> 
> i kept a colony of 20+ rcs alive a couple of months ago for a while until they all got eaten. never had any spontaneous deaths.
> 
> ...


Could be, order a copper test online. Scroll down towards the bottom, the API . This site has good prices. http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html
Or, ask your LFS to order you one. Well water can have all sorts of things in it. Have you ever had it tested, for your own sake? I see you also live in FL. Our water stinks in FL, and you are even closer to the coast. It could be sulfur, hmm..bacteria..


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

chris127 said:


> why would there be copper in well water?


Why not?


chris127 said:


> lfs doesnt have any copper tests,


if they wont order you one they dont deserve your buisness.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

fishsandwitch said:


> Why not?
> 
> if they wont order you one they dont deserve your buisness.


its kinda hard when theres only 2 pet stores in my town(minus petco petsmart or petsupermarket who carry only the basic aquarium crap) i dont have quite the luxury of getting anything good at these places but i go there out of necessity.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> Could be, order a copper test online. Scroll down towards the bottom, the API . This site has good prices. http://www.kensfish.com/testkits.html
> Or, ask your LFS to order you one. Well water can have all sorts of things in it. Have you ever had it tested, for your own sake? I see you also live in FL. Our water stinks in FL, and you are even closer to the coast. It could be sulfur, hmm..bacteria..


it goes through a softener, a filter with all kinds of filter resin, and then one more water filter. its the same water i drink and i feel fine, lol


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i'll get a cu test though. but why would my water jsut now start getting harmful amounts of copper in it when it wasnt killing my shrimp before?


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

^ That process won't remove metals. It sounds to me like you have copper in your water. If it's coming from a municipal water works type facility, the water content can and does change regularly.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i dont get city water, i get well water. straight from unda da ground...


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

7 snowballs dead or struggling :icon_cry:


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

Oh I missed that part. I don't know then, unless the aquifer you're pulling from somehow became contaminated with runoff from somewhere. Have you had any sinkholes in the area recently that you know of?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

not that i know of...in my backyard theres a runoff stream where water runoff from the cow and watermelon farm flows thruough, but i see ghost shrimp in there all the time?? and would snails be more tolerant of high Cu than shrimp? because i have a lot of pond snails in the shrimp tank


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

I'm new at this but the copper could be coming from your pipes right? so that wouldn't matter if it's well or city water then right? Please let me know if i'm wrong.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

Snails aren't affected by copper, much to the dismay of people who want to eliminate snails from their tanks. I don't know, maybe it's runoff from one of the farms seeping in. Maybe the concentration of copper in the stream is way lower than in the aquifer that it seeps into?

I don't know, really, I'm just trying to help. 

Best of luck to you. If it were me I would definitely run some experiments to see if it's the aquasoil leaching ammonia, or to see if it's my usual source of water that is now messed up, or if it's something environmental, or whatever.

Don't give up!


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

it cant be the aquasoil.. its 2 months seasoned and ammonia is at 0. its wierd, because the only shrimp that appears to be fine is a 1 inch female, and arent adults harder to ship? 

i'll get some cu, po4, and cl tests tomorrow if i can find some. ive got a coupon ive been meaning to use  

all of the death is really discouraging. idk if i want to go through the excitement of a new batch and then the let down of an extinction... :icon_roll 

what im most confused about is why i could keep them alive in a tank full of haphazardly poured in ferts and diy co2 that was probably way too high... :icon_conf


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

You have copper in your water, guaranteed. I lived in a house for a few years that had well water and the copper levels were so bad my shower heads and bathtub all turned light brown.


Also, don't buy any loaches until you remedy this problem.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

I'll bet you don't have any snails either.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

mott said:


> You have copper in your water, guaranteed. I lived in a house for a few years that had well water and the copper levels were so bad my shower heads and bathtub all turned light brown.
> 
> 
> Also, don't buy any loaches until you remedy this problem.


who said anything about loaches?? :icon_conf i like snails! 

so is the only solution to getting rid of Cu an RO/DI filter?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

mott said:


> I'll bet you don't have any snails either.


ill bet i do, i can count 3 adults and 4 clutches without turning my head:thumbsup:


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## jackstraw (Mar 1, 2008)

I could ship you some water from NC 

All jokes aside, I hate your having a hard time. I hope you can get it figured out. BTW< what temp is your heater set?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

dont have one, the temp in my house never goes below 72.


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

Church said:


> Snails aren't affected by copper


Sorry, but this is just untrue. Had a snail is copper.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

is the only solution to getting rid of Cu an RO/DI filter?


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## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

chris127 said:


> is the only solution to getting rid of Cu an RO/DI filter?


yeah that I know of.


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## connordude27 (Jun 14, 2008)

water changes don't do it?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

fishsandwitch said:


> yeah that I know of.


:icon_evil



connordude27 said:


> water changes don't do it?


well if theres copper in my water to begin with it wouldnt.. 


whats wierd is the rcs i got are doing fine in another tank, yet both params are exactly the same.... :icon_roll


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

chris127 said:


> ...yet both params are exactly the same.... :icon_roll


Lol, if both parameters were exactly the same, you would not have any shrimp deaths. Perhaps your "tested" parameters are the same, but there may be parameters beyond what your tests measure that are causing the shrimp deaths. Are the shrimps in both tanks from the same exact supplier. Sometimes, people don't always start of with the healthiest stock of fish or shrimp. It is kind of like going to Wal-Mart and getting a fish that dies with you within a week, whereas the same fish purchased elsewhere survives a few years.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

yeah both are from the same person. the snowballs may have been a weak stock, or suffered some trauma during shipping. i got a partial refund anyway... but id rather have a living shrimp colony :icon_neut


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## ICU-Mailman (Jan 9, 2009)

Just a thought--if you have well water and FL has been in a drought condition (or a period of reduced rain) then when it does start to rain--all the accumulated wastes in the soil will drain off into the water and cause pollutants to accumulate within the water. So water that was ''good' last year can now have multiple contaminants (from farming, lawn care, community sprays for mosquitoes etc.,) falling into it. There is really no way to know about these increases unless you are notified by your count health board for something like cholera. Shrimps are very suseptible to even small pollutants. It is just a thought that may account for your troubles.


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

Did you ever test for copper?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

yes i did, copper is 0 ppm. my lfs ran 4 tests for me


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## mott (Nov 23, 2006)

chris127 said:


> yes i did, copper is 0 ppm. my lfs ran 4 tests for me


Wow, I woulda bet the bank that you did with well water and so many shrimp death's.
Maybe the poster above has some weight in his theory.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

yeah im looking for evidence that i have that much pollutants... i dont exactly live in the city. its a pretty rural area so theres not much pollution, and mosquito control isnt dumping gallons of spray into the ground. i forget how deep the well is, but its the deepest we could dig it.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I think it's simple enough to find out if it's your water that's causing the die-off... you're just sort of skating around it, lol... just simply remove the water from the equation by emptying the tank and replacing with distilled or rain water. Add some equilibrium or whatever, if you want to get some of the hardness back, and then see if the deaths continue.

I'm guessing here, if you can rule the water out (which you may end up doing, if you say you have another tank with the same water and no deaths), it will end up having something to do with your substrate or your filter containing something poisonous.

At any rate what you should do is move the survivors to your other tank and see if they fare any better.

Did you ever spray Raid on a roach nearby the tank or anything like that?


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

how can i rule out that it was my water, when i dont have the same shrimp to test the 2 water sources? i may as could have just gotten some weak shrimp. the last 2 batches that died were in high tech tanks with ferts, co2, and fish so that could be a factor. now that i know its not Cu poisoning, i can determine that. 

there are no survivors, and i dont spray for roaches. febreeze occasionally, but the tanks are right next to each other.


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

chris127 said:


> whats wierd is the rcs i got are doing fine in another tank, yet both params are exactly the same.... :icon_roll


Try putting those RCS into the tank that you're having problems with


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

and lose more? no thanks


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

Lol how bout like just 1 RCS? A young one, so you don't accidentally get an old one and have it die from old age


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

im having a hard enough time spotting an adult RCS over flourite. i should have rethought the substrate lmao


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## Zack2112 (Jan 6, 2009)

chris127 said:


> and lose more? no thanks


I am new to planted and have never kept shrimp (will be very soon) but I have been into fish keeping for a while now. It sounds to me if you think you may have just had weak shrimp you should definitely try some RCS in the tank you were having troubles with. Wouldnt you rather take a couple RCS out of the tank you already have going and try them in the other rather than getting a whole new batch hoping those were stronger and letting the whole batch die off? At the very least you will determine if there was something wrong with the shrimp or if there is something wrong with the tank. If any of the RCS die you know to take your investigation on the tank farther. Really, unless you dont plan on keeping shrimp in there anymore you will find out eventually when you add shrimp to the tank. I guess if it were me I would rather find out sooner than later.:icon_conf I really hope that it works out for you and you find out whats wrong. Best of luck!


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## mmfish (Dec 24, 2008)

Copper is always the last toxin suggested for a shrimp die off. I had multiple die offs with RO/DI water and frequent water changes. I am now using tap water w prime and it seems to be more to their liking. Every tank is different and considering the variables some are luckier than others. Keep trying.


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## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

I hope i'm a lucky one! Tomorrow i'm gonna go buy a copper test kit to find out in advance if I have copper and if it's gonna be a problem. I so hope not! My shrimp are arriving next week sometime!

Good luck and I hope you find out what's going on soon so you don't lose any more shrimp!

Take care!


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## parkman7 (Dec 28, 2008)

I use activated carbon to filter incoming tap water. Activated carbon is VERY good at removing many chemicals and heavy metals period. No need to go buy a test kit for ever possible contaminant, this is unnecessary and expensive! Not to mention you have no idea what the contaminate is! Activated carbon has been used for years as a decontaminating substance. Not only for aquariums, but also for biological/ chemical warfare defense (main component in gas masks!)

Here is what I do: (you can get a different system if you can afford it.)
Get 2-3 Kg of activated carbon in net bags, put them in a filter bucket with floss at the top and bottom. Then very slowly filter the tap water trough the carbon into a large bucket you will use to change the water. Then aerate this filtered water heavily for at least 2days.
An alternative would be to buy or make a filter system that incorporates 2 levels of activated carbon filtration, you could add a resin softening stage if you have hard water to begin with.
Another thing, if you have well water, always aerate the water before using it in any aquarium! Well water contains very little oxygen, and is high in CO2! Aerating will fix this problem. Also test the hardness of your water, if it is too soft add some dolomite or coral to your filter.

Hope this helps.

Regards,


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## Shoey (Jan 1, 2009)

*Cu testing by ICP-MS*

If you are worried about Cu PM me I can test your water by ICP-MS which easily goes down to ppt for Cu.


Al


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

I have seven tanks with shrimp in. They are all different species of shrimp, so comparing one to another is impossible, but I have one tank where no species of shrimp will survive for long. I don't know why. I call it the haunted tank, and gave it over to fish and snails who seem to be very happy there. Go figure...
My best tank is the CRS/RCS tank, where breeding goes on like mad. This is it...










No ferts, no CO2, no bog wood, just a sponge filter and a heater keeping it at 73 degrees. It's been going for several years now.


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## Athos710 (Dec 14, 2008)

zoologist101 said:


> This is it...
> No ferts, no CO2, no bog wood, just a sponge filter and a heater keeping it at 73 degrees. It's been going for several years now.


Looks like a lovely tank. Got a bigger picture of it? From the small one it looks like a svape I'd like to take a stab at.


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

Sorry, I don't think I can get a larger picture on the site, but I will try.
The tank is an Aqua One. It's about 12 inches square, with a built in light and under gravel filter [which I don't use, as I prefer a sponge filter].


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Use photobucket, you can store pics at 800X600 for free.


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

Maybe this one.


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

Thanks Carole.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Gotta love that marimo, & nice lotus. YW


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## Athos710 (Dec 14, 2008)

Thanks a lot. Great looking tank! roud:


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## sgtbones (Feb 18, 2008)

I had a similar problem. For years I couldn't keep RCS alive in my 29g planted with Flourite as a substrate. Same as you Chris, parameters were rock solid, an assortment of healthy fish and snails. I'd try every once in a while and within days they would all die. Last year I started an ADA min-m with Aquasoil substrate with the same results. About a month ago I read somewhere on the internet that as a last resort Prime water conditioner might be the culprit. So I switched to Stress Coat+ and cycled my tanks for a couple of weeks and then added 6 RCS. Sure enough, all 6 survived. I added another 6 from a different source and they are (so far) doing well. Also, it might be worth noting that I dripped these slowy over the course of 45 minutes or so. Hope this helps.
Scott


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## rjfurbank (Aug 27, 2008)

I second the comment about using carbon.

I had a die-off of RCS a few months ago. Daily water changes didn't work. Only after I replaced the carbon did shrimp stop dying.

Maybe coincidence but I now replace the carbon regularly and have had no problems since. 5 managed to survive (from 70-80). Luckily 4 females and 1 male. 3 are now berried so hoping to rebuild the colony. . .

Good luck.

-Roy


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

sgtbones said:


> About a month ago I read somewhere on the internet that as a last resort Prime water conditioner might be the culprit. So I switched to Stress Coat+ and cycled my tanks for a couple of weeks and then added 6 RCS. Sure enough, all 6 survived. I added another 6 from a different source and they are (so far) doing well. Also, it might be worth noting that I dripped these slowy over the course of 45 minutes or so. Hope this helps.
> Scott


So Prime can cause shrimp deaths?

Can anyone confirm this because i am going to set up a Shrimp tank soon and all i have to condition water is Prime :icon_eek:


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

prime causing shrimp deaths? everyone whos ever had aquasoil probably uses prime!! i should be getting a lot of RCS in 2 weeks so i'll test some different params on them. sgtbones, what did you read about prime causing deaths??


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## sgtbones (Feb 18, 2008)

> prime causing shrimp deaths?


Alot of people on this site use Prime as their water conditioner for their shrimp tanks with no ill effects. From what I read (I wish I could remember which website it was) Prime was last on a long list of possible culprits regarding shrimp death. After 2 years of trying to keep RCS with no luck, switching from Prime to Stress Coat appears to have worked for me and I thought I would pass it along. Again, I'm not in any way saying that Prime emphaticaly causes shrimp death, just throwing out my experince for those who are as exasperated as I was.


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## oblongshrimp (Jul 26, 2006)

I use prime in my shrimp tanks with no problems and I know several other breeders who do as well. I wonder if the Stress Coat was neutralizing something else in the tank that was causing the problem (heavy metals maybe?)


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## sgtbones (Feb 18, 2008)

Oblong,
I agree, my gut feeling is that Prime was not adding something to the water column that was killing the shrimp, but rather that Stress Coat was cancelling out the responsible agent.


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## James1986 (Jan 23, 2009)

Maybe try using ghost shrimp for a test run before adding other more expensive species?


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## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

CobraGuppy said:


> So Prime can cause shrimp deaths?
> 
> Can anyone confirm this because i am going to set up a Shrimp tank soon and all i have to condition water is Prime :icon_eek:


Yes. There is a private message to me about a person contacting an engineer at the company who makes prime. 

My theory is Prime reacts with a chemical in the water, causing shrimp deaths. When the person stops using Prime, the deaths stop. But it is an unusual circumstance, it doesn't happen every time. That is why we think there is a second compound involved.

So, IF you use Prime, AND you are having mysterious shrimp deaths, STOP using Prime and see if that solves the issue.


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## bulrush (May 7, 2007)

Here is the message from my PMs at petfish.net: 


> Hi Chuck,
> I'm sure that you didn't remember but I have a tank of over 200 RCS, lol. I purchased some from you so that I can have some new genetics in the tank. I want to thank you for the instructions, it shows that you are a concerned and caring breeder. Cool
> 
> Last year I had a major loss when someone recommended Prime to me. I didn't have any problems in the tank at the time, the Prime was suggested as a better water conditioner than what I was using.
> ...


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i think ive found the killer then... i just switched over to prime when i started my 20, and thats when all my shrimp deaths started to occur... i'll stick to tetras aquasafe from now on i guess and see how it goes since thats what i used to use. what chemical does it react with?


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## Choco (Dec 8, 2007)

I was having these mysterious shrimp deaths in 2 of my tanks too

I think the problem went away after I stuffed loads of carbon in there...i wasn't using carbon because it was a planted tank

but don't underestimate chemical filtration...a lot of ppl tend to ignore it for a planted tank, but it is there for a reason, especially in a newly setup tank


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

alright the killer was prime, im 88.8% sure. when ever i got my shrimp the die-off always started within 2 hours. i received some shrimp today and its been 5 hours since theyve been in the tank and there has been no deaths  i dechlored with tetras Aquasafe.


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## Walking_Target (Jul 16, 2008)

Huh, i use Prime and i've only ever lost 2 shrimp ( both new additions) 

I think the problem would come from mixing chemicals rather than anything else.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

the problem is prime reacting with a chemical in my water, and creating something poisonous.


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## CL (Mar 13, 2008)

chris127 said:


> the problem is prime reacting with a chemical in my water, and creating something poisonous.


I'm glad you found the problem!


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

me too man i was about to explode!!


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## eyebeatbadgers (Aug 6, 2007)

interesting. I might give shrimp another try in the future. I've had about the same luck as you with them in the past, most shrimp being lucky to live a week or two.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

go for it again :thumbsup: i never stopped and i finally found the cause


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

alright its been 28 hours and no deaths


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

It would be interesting to know what it was reacting with to cause that. Have you talked to Seachem about it? They have really good customer service, as I've contacted them a few times with questions. I'm sure they would like to know if that is the case.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

BradH said:


> It would be interesting to know what it was reacting with to cause that. Have you talked to Seachem about it? They have really good customer service, as I've contacted them a few times with questions. I'm sure they would like to know if that is the case.


the top post of the page is a PM between bulrush and a seachem engineer for prime, so they must know about it


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## bsmith (Jan 8, 2007)

I really have my doubts about calling prime the culprit. I more the 20x's od on prime when I ship shrimp. I drop 3-4 drops of it in the kordon bag with the shrimp and they spend a few days in the bag with this heavy dose. I have had no problems doing this.

Granted I dont know if I have this "MYSTERY COMPOUND" in my water but it still seems like a stretch.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i have nothing else to blame for it, i acclimated them all for 30 minutes, then put them in. the water i had treated with prime killed them all(tries 2-4). the water i treated with nothing didnt kill any(try 4). the water i treated with aquasafe didnt kill any(tries 1 and 4)


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

If you have some culls to sacrifice down the line, I would try putting a couple shrimp in each of 3 containers - one with no conditioner, one with Prime and one with your current dechlor. That would tell the tale better.....


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

chris127 said:


> the top post of the page is a PM between bulrush and a seachem engineer for prime, so they must know about it


I didn't realize that. It could also be that the prime "isn't" getting something that the aquasafe is, instead it reacting with something and causing it. I guess what I mean is that... maybe the prime isn't reacting with something. Just a thought. I use prime on my shrimp, but we obviously have different water, being in two different states.


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## zoologist101 (Oct 4, 2008)

I have never used prime, so can't comment. I always used Aguasafe successfully – but it is not cheap. Someone told me that any cheap pond dechlorinater would work just as well. It did not! I had deaths for the first time ever. My water changes are all done with Aguasafe now, and I'm back to 100% success.
I think we have to remember that all this stuff was designed for fish, and shrimps are a great deal more delicate than fish.


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## southerndesert (Sep 9, 2007)

I use Prime with no issues, but I have heard mixing conditioners can be bad.

http://arizonainverts.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=58

This is a similar experience....


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## hooha (Mar 14, 2004)

zoologist101 said:


> I have never used prime, so can't comment. I always used Aguasafe successfully – but it is not cheap. Someone told me that any cheap pond dechlorinater would work just as well. It did not! I had deaths for the first time ever. My water changes are all done with Aguasafe now, and I'm back to 100% success.
> I think we have to remember that all this stuff was designed for fish, and shrimps are a great deal more delicate than fish.


If you have chloramines in your water instead of chlorine, dechlorinators will release ammonia into your water and cause deaths after dechlorinating....


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## jrafael (Jan 7, 2009)

hooha said:


> If you have chloramines in your water instead of chlorine, dechlorinators will release ammonia into your water and cause deaths after dechlorinating....


http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html

"Prime™ also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NCl3), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3). 
Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process."


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I use prime regularly to dechlroninate my tap water, which I use for water changes and I have a s*itload of Amano Shrimp in my 10 gallon. No deaths to report and I have been doing this for months. Also, ammonia only becomes toxic at higher PH level and temperature, it doesn't matter if you are fish, shrimp, or an Aquasaur.


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## jrafael (Jan 7, 2009)

From this paper:
http://www.seachem.com/Library/SeaGrams/Ammonia_Management.pdf
"While Safe™ and *Prime*™ are designed to handle the *moderate ammonia concentrations found in municipal water systems*, AmGuard™ is designed to handle much higher ammonia concentrations. It reacts rapidly with ammonia. It is beneficial in any high ammonia situation, including the establishment of new tanks..."

You mention you have well water, what are your water paremeters from the tap ?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

I use Prime and only Prime- I learned a long time ago that mixing dechlors often spells a chemical soup of trouble, since they do not all act the same way and form the same compounds.

I don't think that Prime by itself was the problem- but what happened when the shrimp were exposed to both.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i may have been too quick to blame prime... ive had 4 deaths that started yesterday night im assuming. it has been 5 days since i acclimated them. i think my water is just terrible quality (bacteria???) cause all the basic params are 0 and pH is 7.6. im going to get it tested for the works at my LFS. if i cant find any problem with it then and my shrimp still die, im going to start using RO or rain water on my shrimp tank, and write Seachem an apology letter. 

this is all so frustrating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im running out of money to keep throwing away on shrimp. lauralee, i know you have a surpuls, may i borrow some guinea pigs??


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

oh yeah, i put the remaining few in my 45 p to see if some aquasoil makes a difference. that tank has been treated with aquasafe the past 4 water changes.


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## BradH (May 15, 2008)

I just looked up some stuff about water quality in Punta Gorda Florida and it appears you have bad water quality from what I read. Maybe you should try some RO or get a water quality report from your water department and find out just what all is in your water.


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

Our water in Fl is like liquid rock, that's why I use RO.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

BradH said:


> I just looked up some stuff about water quality in Punta Gorda Florida and it appears you have bad water quality from what I read. Maybe you should try some RO or get a water quality report from your water department and find out just what all is in your water.


im not on municipal water, we have a well. which is probably even worse quality... :icon_roll



waterfaller1 said:


> Our water in Fl is like liquid rock, that's why I use RO.


my kh and gh were low last time i tested them, but the alk was still med-high. im looking into RO, but i need someway to market it to my dad so we can split the cost. i need hard evidence that our well water SUCKS, and shrimp deaths arent cutting it


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

These guys are GREAT to work with, and this is super cheap for an RO unit. It has no DI, but you don't need it unless you go reef. You _would_ want the flush kit.
http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_systems.htm

Buy a gallon of it and have him taste it next to your other water. Make some coffee with it.


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## CobraGuppy (Sep 23, 2007)

Do you still have to dechlor ro water? Or does the process take out chlorine and stuff too.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

waterfaller1 said:


> These guys are GREAT to work with, and this is super cheap for an RO unit. It has no DI, but you don't need it unless you go reef. You _would_ want the flush kit.
> http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_systems.htm
> 
> Buy a gallon of it and have him taste it next to your other water. Make some coffee with it.


i'll see what i can do. 



CobraGuppy said:


> Do you still have to dechlor ro water? Or does the process take out chlorine and stuff too.


depends, if you buy it from a grocery store the bottler may add Cl to it. if youre filtering your own, no you do not.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

where can i take my water to get a test for everything? the water treatment plant? theres one 5 minutes from my house(closer than the nearest gas station! :flick do they test water?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

It can't hurt to ask, tell them your fish & shrimp are depending on you!
Harry, I use no dechlor.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

so it looks as if we have the 2 prefilters that come with most of the RO units hooked up to our drinking water faucet. sooo where can i but JUST the RO canister/resin?


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## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

The resin is the DI, you need a membrane, it goes after the prefilters. Then you need a flush kit to extend the life of the membrane.


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

i meant the RO canister/ membrane, sorry  all these terms are jumbled up ive been reading so many articles and websites


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## chase127 (Jun 8, 2008)

okay im trying a new water source. its passing through a GE Smart filter GXSV10H which removes...

99% VOC
99.99% Cysts
91% Mercury 
99% Turbidity 
97% Chlorine
99% Asbestos
99% Lead 

we'll see if it makes a difference..


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