# Ironite fertilizer in the substrate??????



## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Nope. And for good reason. It will turn your water very acidic. Also the iron is not chelated.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Doesn't need to be chelated if it's in the substrate, it can work in small amounts, without turning the water overly acidic. I mix it with clay and add it to the substrate when I am setting up a tank, about a 1/4 cup to a pound of red potters clay which I used in three 30 gallon tanks as part of a soil sub-substrate. 

You only need to worry about chelating iron (or any metal ion nutrient) if it is being dosed in the water column to keep it in the "plant available" ionic state.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

woohoo, if Sean endorses, then that's that. hehe, thanks Sean! 

Okay, so now my question is...I've got a 10 gallon tank and a 20 gallon tank.... how do you suggest going about applying it into my substrate? i.e. 1 tblsp every inch..... every 6 inches?? or just under the crypts and swords?

Thanks again Rex and Sean for your replies.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The idea is to make iron available to the plants, not to choke them with it. What else is in the your substrate, to be honest I wouldn't use it without the clay and soil. I used the mix under my entire substrate, everything seems to appreciate it, swords, crypts, hairgrass, sag, vals, I have Limnophila sending out runners, and the Lace plants are still flowering.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Hi Sean, I have one inch of soil substrate and an inch of play sand over the soil substrate. the plants seem to do okay once they are ESTABLISHED with some roots. It's always the initial planting....that they grow perhaps too fast that they show some nutrient deficiencies..after a couple of weeks, they green up. i'm just tired of water column fertilizing because of all the algae it produces..perhaps because the phosphate content is so high in ironite...i was thinking if i put it in the substrate where the algae cannot get access to it, it would be much better. 

if i may ask, why wouldn't you use it without clay and soil?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Another question Sean, how often do you add more ironite to your substrate? every month?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The bio-chemical processes that have to occur to make the Ironite usable by the plants works better in a soil substrate than in a gravel or sand only substrate. I'm still trying to peg down why from the scientific literature, but I've found that plants in a soil substrate can overcome anoxic conditions where plants in a gravel substrate have a harder time. It has something to do with the rhizosphere and the pore space of the soil. The clay binds any excess production from these processes until the plants have a chance to take up the released nutrients.

I haven't added anything to my substrate (other than new plants) in about 5 years, all I've done is reap a harvest.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

what's the rhizosphere?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Why did I have the feeling I might be getting too technical. :wink: 

If I find a song lyric that explains it I'll let you know. :roll: 

j/k 

Aquatic plant roots are "leaky", in that they release O2 to the substrate. The area that is affected by this O2 release is called the rhizosphere. In an anoxic substrate this is the area that has aerobic metabolism occuring.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

haha I'm lovin it...tell me more tell me more...haha

i think i see what you are saying....you are saying that with all the roots in the substrate, it becomes aerobic...and there are no anaerobic areas to make iron in an available form for plants.... but in a soil substrate.. despite the oxygen richness of it all, iron is still made available vs. a gravel substrate?

anything i left out?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

hubbahubbahehe said:


> haha I'm lovin it...tell me more tell me more...haha
> 
> i think i see what you are saying....you are saying that with all the roots in the substrate, it becomes aerobic...and there are no anaerobic areas to make iron in an available form for plants.... but in a soil substrate.. despite the oxygen richness of it all, iron is still made available vs. a gravel substrate?
> 
> anything i left out?


You don't quite have it but you don't really need to know it to grow plants. Neither substrate is oxygen rich at all, but in a gravel substrate the plants can't form an effective rhizosphere, and can't get the process going to get nutrients into an available form.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Sean, have you ever had your soil substrates "go bad"?? i read about it online every now and then from people who say that it turns into a "green stinky mess" or "went anaerobic and caused all the fish to die" ?? what are your experiences?


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

I've never had a substrate go bad. I even set one up, filled the tank, and let it sit for a year before planting a couple dwarf sag and a crypt spiralis in the tank, I was a little distracted at the time. I also put some rotala rotundifolia on the substrate and held it down with a rock. All three plants took to this anoxic substrate, spread, and turned it over. You have to remember I don't use a topsoil with any organic material in it, it is mineralized. 

Actually the ten gallon tank that I show the picture of in another thread is that tank, with that same substrate today, some of the plants are gone and others are planted in there now. 

My substrates are lasting, at last count which is present day, 9 years. And that tank had a massive die off because of a heater malfunction, is got stuck on. However, everything that had below gravel biomass came back after a water change. I was very glad to see that because my 9 year old Lace plants are in that tank (at the time they were 6). Other plants that came back are Crypt parva, Crypt spiralis, Crypt walkerii, Crypt willisii, and an Amazon sword I don't know the species of.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

so thsi mineralized topsoil is the same one that you get at home depot right? 40 lbs for like a dollar?


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

What's the product called?


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Sean sean sean, sigh, i called the local Home Depot. I quoted you saying I'm looking for a "mineralized topsoil with low or no humic or organic matter in it." She said, there's no such thing as a soil without organic matter in it. And then she went off saying how she's an expert and all...... So haha, I couldn't find that topsoil... perhaps you could tell me the name brand of your topsoil you use? maybe i can find it that way.... i just got a new 50 G tank and I got a budget to work within, otherwise i would go 100% eco-complete.....


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Be very careful here and potting soils and top soils vary greatly from region to region. In fact the same brand will have different compositions in different areas. So just because someone had good luck with product X doesn't mean you will because it's very possible you will get a different product.

I'm an avid terrestrial gardener and this is a huge complaint among normal gardeners is that there is so much variety and inconsistency in bagged soils. It even varies during the time of year sometimes.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Whatever you do, don't use potting soil or any soil that has added humus. Maybe you should just go for the Eco complete. Rex has a point, I might have good luck finding a suitable soil on the east coast where someone on the west would end up with a mess on their hands. 

If you want to try to mineralize a questionable soil, try getting it saturated then let it drain and dry out in the sun a couple times over a month in a shallow and wide tub. Mix it up to aerate it as it drys. This should speed along the decomposition of any humus in the soil and wash out solulable contaminates.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

Ok guys, check this out, due to the grace of God, I just received one free 50 G tank, one free 20G tank, and another free 135 G tank!!!!! Now I would love to buy eco-complete, but i do not have the money for it lol!!!! (<---- college student) ...... hehe!!!! Sean, you know we been chatting for awhile and you know, i have to say that I've agreed with your philosophy on planted tanks the whole way through. I've always been impressed with your skills, especially your ability to raise such beautiful lace plants. So what are your suggestions for me in terms of a complete substrate?

by the way, thanks all for your warnings and replies...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

SCMurphy said:


> If you want to try to mineralize a questionable soil, try getting it saturated then let it drain and dry out in the sun a couple times over a month in a shallow and wide tub. Mix it up to aerate it as it drys. This should speed along the decomposition of any humus in the soil and wash out solulable contaminates.


LOL!!! Sean I'm actually doing that right now!!!!! I just drained it....and the soil stinks oh man...it smells so bad ...haha....so i was about to give up on it....you think if i kept on soaking it and draining it that perhaps i could have a workable soil ??? by the way, this soil is soil i dug up from my backyard....


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

hubbahubbahehe said:


> LOL!!! Sean I'm actually doing that right now!!!!! I just drained it....and the soil stinks oh man...it smells so bad ...haha....so i was about to give up on it....you think if i kept on soaking it and draining it that perhaps i could have a workable soil ??? by the way, this soil is soil i dug up from my backyard....


How many free tanks did you get? If I were a lesser man I'd be very jealous, envious at the least. How are you gonna afford the electricity to run these tanks?

When it stops stinking when wet I would consider it usable. You are trying to force the aerobic decomposition of the humus in the soil, the alternate wet and dry conditions are the best way to do this. But make sure you are draining it as much as possible. If you just leave it in a bucket of water all you are doing is getting the much slower anerobic decomposition of the humus. If you have too, put the soil in an old sheet as squeeze the excess water out after you soak it. I can't stress enough the need to go from the extremes of wet to dry.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

heheh i'm going to go low tech on all these tanks..i got 3 tanks for free....well, keep in mind, these are used tanks...so they are not in the nicest condition..that's why people are giving it away to me...but i'm not picky, and i can make do with scratches and what not...no biggie to me... 

Sean, the soil stinks so bad haha...hey, you know that potter's clay that you use? perhaps i could use it for an underlayer? is it cheap in bulk?


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

maybe if you have a stream nearby you can scour some riversand...


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

hi nordic, what an interesting idea!! i just found out that we have Alameda Creek in our city of Fremont, CA.....and it's freshwater...it's not polluted, heck they are thinking of repopulating the area with salmon...how bout that? i'll look for riversand, driftwood, rocks, etc......but i wonder, is it legal to do this? lol


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## Raul-7 (Oct 17, 2003)

Almost anything affecting nature in Cali is illegal! I mean I'm 15, so I don't know what they would do if I were caught collecting stuff out of streams! As long as you don't take a lot, I think you'll stay safe...


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I dont think a 15 year old with a bucket of sand is gonna draw much attention.

I have done it before, just let it sit in a tank with water after washing it, so that you can check for any critters for a day or two.


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

LOL that's hilarious.....


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## Anonymous (Mar 2, 2003)

Don't use top soil unless you want aglea forever! The following works great for about 5-7 years. Cat litter on the bottom (clay), 1 lbs / 5 gal ironite, 1 tbls/5 gal, osmocote, 1 tblspn/10 gal, coarse building sand silica 1 lb/ gal. Carefully fill with water as not to dig holes. This mix was recommended to me and work great. Top soil just makes a very big mess!


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

capnbob said:


> Don't use top soil unless you want aglea forever! The following works great for about 5-7 years. Cat litter on the bottom (clay), 1 lbs / 5 gal ironite, 1 tbls/5 gal, osmocote, 1 tblspn/10 gal, coarse building sand silica 1 lb/ gal. Carefully fill with water as not to dig holes. This mix was recommended to me and work great. Top soil just makes a very big mess!


A pound of Ironite per 5 gallons of water ???? and you are worried about the soil? Oh sorry, mis-read the portions. Not everyone can find that particular cat litter, its just as variable as the soils are.

You can look at my tanks in other threads http://www.plantedtank.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3777 to see what a soil substrate can do for you when correctly set up. These tanks are 8 years old and going strong.


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

I'm just waiting for someone to read this post quickly and add a pound of ironite per 5 gallons of water.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Rex Grigg said:


> I'm just waiting for someone to read this post quickly and add a pound of ironite per 5 gallons of water.


You just know it's gonna happen, don't you. :roll:


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## hubbahubbahehe (Sep 13, 2003)

i hope it doesn't happen... 

for all the speed readers out there, DON'T add a pound of ironite per 5 gallons.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

I'd like to resurrect this thread for another question.

Sean, do you put the clay/ironite under the soil or mix it in?
thanks-


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

1) mix some ironite into the liquified clay 
2) put the soil in the tank
3) pour some of the clay mix into the soil, sort of a bundt cake frosting pattern 

Warning to novices: This is not a recipe just a step by step outline, do not try this on your first planted tank, or even your second one.

That's how I used to do it. The next one I do is going to have the clay mixed in to the soil with some chick grit to give it more volume before I put it in the tank. What I was doing was great for farming. If you want to have a thicker substrate for sloping and aquascaping it was worthless as it levels off under water very quickly.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Thanks for the response, Sean. Clay is so fine-textured that I would think it will end up on the very bottom eventually.

A trip to local establisments proved frustrating, as usual. There is no such thing as topsoil that has not had some humus, peat, dung, or commercial fertilizer added to it. Long story short, I was looking in my own back yard, and I feel sort of like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. So that is what I'll be using along with some clay and ironite.









My dirt has very little clay in it, actually is pretty sandy. This will be in the afflicted 30 gallon, and probably in one of my 10s as well. The 30 will not be staying up permanantly anyway. And if it is a success, I'll use the same thing in its successor.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

The clay adheres to the soil particles, it doesn't seperate out.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

That's good, actually. Uprooting to replant... well, I can learn to live with it.
Now to find my shovel. Already have the terra cotta and ironite.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Let the dirt soak for a couple days in a bucket before you use it. If it turns into a smelly mess in the bucket, you will thank me.


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## aquaverde (Apr 15, 2003)

Have had it in the glass bucket since Sunday, don't notice any smell yet.
Normally I procrastinate much better than this, but it got me this time. I should know better. :roll:


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

Well I'm sure you will let us know how it goes.


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## weaver (Jun 15, 2005)

Well, I want to bring this thread back to life one more time...

Reason 1) to see if anyone has used Amaco Red Clay? I can't find any information on the contents to see if it is, in fact, iron rich.

Reason 2) To see aquaverde's results???

Thanks folks,
Blake


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## Rex Grigg (Dec 10, 2002)

Note that the State of California has a filed a lawsuit against the manufacturer of Ironite due to the unlisted content of various and sundry toxic heavy metals in the product. 

See this link for more info.

Never used the red clay.


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## Steel Phoenix (Sep 4, 2010)

Ironite seems to have survived that lawsuit, changed their sourcing, and continues to sell in Calfornia. I'm gonna give it a shot in a test tank.

"Whatever you do, don't use potting soil or any soil that has added humus."

According to Wikipedia: "humus refers to any organic matter that has reached a point of stability, where it will break down no further and might, if conditions do not change, remain essentially as it is for centuries, if not millennia."

I deliberately add humus to some of my tanks for the cation exchange, and it hasn't given me algae problems. I can't speak for other forms of organic matter.


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