# What am I doing wrong ugh



## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

> I believe it's because I added to many ferts, 4 ml thrive once a week plus put 4 nilcog root tabs + high light with little plant mass


You answered your own question. 

Why all the food and light for a tank that is essentially all slow / low light growers?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

First off, the tank does not look all that horrible to me and repens and bacopa and rotala are more then decent.
Second, 4 ml of thrive a week in a 55g is a drop in a bucket.

Before we jump to any quick advise, what is your NO3 at? Knowing your pH, kH, and gH won't hurt either.

Couple of observations and questions: Do you have anything, like dirt, under your gravel? Is that an air bubbler that I am seeing? If yes, then why? 10% of blue for 15 hours? Do you vacuum your gravel?


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## brothermichigan (Sep 5, 2017)

Yeah, that doesn't really look bad at all. The chemiclean will likely take care of the BGA with no issues and then it looks like the only other problem you have is some diatoms, right? If that's really all it is, a couple of Amano shrimp would have that tank cleaned up in no time at all.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

The tank doesn't look bad to me either, looks very nice. 

I would grab 4-6 oto cats, a bunch of amano shrimp for the diatoms and do 2 doses of chemiclean for the BGA. 

If you are doing 50% weekly water changes I would go ahead and dose 4 x 4mL of thrive, this will get you 10ppm NO3 total. BGA loves low NO3 environments.

3mL of excel in a 55 won't do much. I do 3.5mL in a 30 gal of Met 14 and it does nothing for the algae.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

OVT said:


> First off, the tank does not look all that horrible to me and repens and bacopa and rotala are more then decent.
> Second, 4 ml of thrive a week in a 55g is a drop in a bucket.
> 
> Before we jump to any quick advise, what is your NO3 at? Knowing your pH, kH, and gH won't hurt either.
> ...


My nitrate is 35-40, kh 6 gh 6, pH is 7.4, tds 151 

I got the neo bubbler for the dead zone for circulation reasons only as I have hob's (aquaclear) and their flow pattern is localized.

I don't have dirt it's all fine grain gravel, the night mode is 15 hours off with 10% blue 1 % pink I never thought this could be the issue as I've always had lunars on the tank with no algae issues, my old light was really weak though, I can't go fully dark in the tank would you recommend say 3% or 2 % I have to have light in the tank or the fish spaz out.

I light gravel the surface area where plants are not located just to remove organics. 

Reason I add 4 ml thrive is due to the fact I don't have much much plant mass, I only have about 25% coverage, I was adding 6 ml which upped my no3 to about 45. 



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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> The tank doesn't look bad to me either, looks very nice.
> 
> I would grab 4-6 oto cats, a bunch of amano shrimp for the diatoms and do 2 doses of chemiclean for the BGA.
> 
> ...


My nitrate is already 35-40 though that's why I might need to switch to dry ferts abd cut the no3 out, it could be the api test kit but I'd prefer someone test my Nitrate with a salifert or a Nutrifin before I buy my own kit, I'm afraid to get ottos as my water conditions are not ideal for them via pH, gh/kh from what I've been told.

I did 2 50% this week because I had a tetra die and foul the tank up but I redosed the thrive after that water change, I've actually been dosing wrong also as I haven't been shaking the bottle [emoji15] when I shook the bottle and added it to the tank it clouded the water up badly but Cleared up in 30 min. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Things I've changed in the last week.

Lowered my tank temp from 79 to 76
Added root tabs (4x nilcog)
Lowered my light strength by 5 more percent on each color, warm white was changed by 35%, did 2 50% water changes due to a fish loss raising my nitrite I usually do 1 50%


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

What is your stocking and what is your tap water NO3 reading? 

Weekly 50% water changes _should_ have your NO3 at 10-20ppm. TDS of 150 and a gH of 6, kH of 6 and 40ppm NO3 plus PO4, K, micros and other dissolved organics almost seems like it doesn't add up.... 

Go ahead and buy the oto cats, they will do great in your water parameters.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> What is your stocking and what is your tap water NO3 reading?
> 
> Weekly 50% water changes _should_ have your NO3 at 10-20ppm. TDS of 150 and a gH of 6, kH of 6 and 40ppm NO3 plus PO4, K, micros and other dissolved organics almost seems like it doesn't add up....
> 
> Go ahead and buy the oto cats, they will do great in your water parameters.


Tap tds is 51, tap no3 is 10, I have 7 rainbows, 1 bn, 6 ornate tetras, 4 lemon tetras (was 5 one died) , adding 4 ml of thrive is roughly 3 ppm no3, I do feed heavy as well, it doesn't add up On the No3 that's why I desperately need to switch nitrate test kits as the api is very innacurate, but the salifert kit avd it Nutrifin are crazy expensive and I'm on a very tight budget, I know i have to sacrifice things to get my tank in order but I have so many differebt things people ate recommending my brain is overloaded.

I have dennis saying I need more plant mass which will help with algae and bga due to overshadowing.

I have others telling me to add 3 ml of h2o2 per gallon which seems like a very bad idea, people saying it's my light compared to my very rich fert dosing, I know more plants will not only help but will be even more beneficial to the tank, I know Otos are great for all algae types except bba, bga.

Here is every single test results I have for tank

Tank
Ph 7.4
Nitrate 35-40
Phosphate 1.1
Kh 6
Gh 6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Tds 151

I Need just maybe a couple recommendations to get the tank back in order as I can't afford 10 different things at once so what's my top few priorities, get a better nitrate test kit and some Otos, better test kit and more plants, Otos and more plants etc etc. 


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

p0tluck said:


> Tap tds is 51, tap no3 is 10, I have 7 rainbows, 1 bn, 6 ornate tetras, 4 lemon tetras (was 5 one died) , adding 4 ml of thrive is roughly 3 ppm no3, I do feed heavy as well, it doesn't add up On the No3 that's why I desperately need to switch nitrate test kits as the api is very innacurate, but the salifert kit avd it Nutrifin are crazy expensive and I'm on a very tight budget, I know i have to sacrifice things to get my tank in order but I have so many differebt things people ate recommending my brain is overloaded.
> 
> I have dennis saying I need more plant mass which will help with algae and bga due to overshadowing.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't worry about the NO3 really. up to 40ppm is fine. 

Remember, just because the plant load is smaller, they will still benefit from higher fert concentrations (within reason).


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> I wouldn't worry about the NO3 really. up to 40ppm is fine.
> 
> Remember, just because the plant load is smaller, they will still benefit from higher fert concentrations (within reason).


No what I'm saying is the api test kit is so innacurate, I have heard reports where peoples api kit was reading 40 but the salifert read 5, so I don't know the real ppm of nitrate as I have an unreliable test kit 

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

p0tluck said:


> No what I'm saying is the api test kit is so innacurate, I have heard reports where peoples api kit was reading 40 but the salifert read 5, so I don't know the real ppm of nitrate as I have an unreliable test kit
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


Maybe take a sample to a LFS and see if they will test. 

I'm assuming you are doing the test correctly: 5mL water, shake #1, 10 drops #1, shake, shake the heck out of #2, 10 drops #2 then shake for 30 seconds and wait 5 minutes to read. Could be a dull test kit, could be the lighting where you are reading the results too. 

How are you reading the tubes?


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Maybe take a sample to a LFS and see if they will test.
> 
> I'm assuming you are doing the test correctly: 5mL water, shake #1, 10 drops #1, shake, shake the heck out of #2, 10 drops #2 then shake for 30 seconds and wait 5 minutes to read. Could be a dull test kit, could be the lighting where you are reading the results too.
> 
> How are you reading the tubes?


Yes I do the test right, I actually use the sun and look at the tube from the side, with the tube against the white part of the card. 
My lfs uses api as well 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

This is from last week, the camera makes it a bit darker than it actually is









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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Lol it's the same exact ppm after doing 2 50% water changes this week, one on Tuesday one on Friday how does that make sense lol it should be like 5 or less, for example say my nitrate was 40 ppm, 50% brings it down to say around 30 due to tap being 10 (if that), then another 50% 3 days later which should bring it down to around 8-10, this was literally just taken.









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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

p0tluck said:


> Lol it's the same exact ppm after doing 2 50% water changes this week, one on Tuesday one on Friday how does that make sense lol it should be like 5 or less, for example say my nitrate was 40 ppm, 50% brings it down to say around 30 due to tap being 10 (if that), then another 50% 3 days later which should bring it down to around 8-10, this was literally just taken.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Test tap at each water change, could vary with certain rainfall events / seasonal variability.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Test tap at each water change, could vary with certain rainfall events / seasonal variability.


I did that first, it barely had a reading was a little darker shade of yellow so more like 5 ppm not 10 like last week. 

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Try multiple large water changes in a day, check to see if that brings it down. 

Clean out filters in old tank water regularly, vacuum substrate where you can and remove any old plant matter regularly too.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> Try multiple large water changes in a day, check to see if that brings it down.
> 
> Clean out filters in old tank water regularly, vacuum substrate where you can and remove any old plant matter regularly too.


It's the test kit, it has to be, filters were just cleaned I gravel vacuumed twice over the course of 3 days, maybe I need new solution or something. 

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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

You listed the GH and KH of the tank water but not for the tap. Could you provide the Tap GH and KH? With a TDS of 51 I would assume it is very soft. But TDS cannot be converted to GH

Thrive like most fertilizers doesn't include calcium, a macro nutrient. Your water might be soft enough that you are running out of calcium. When you have a deficiency plants cannot consume all the nutrients in the water and algae takes advantage of this because it is very good grower with very low nutrient levels. This would slow plant growth and encourage algae and could also result in a lot of nitrate and phosphate buildup in the tank water. 

Once way to address this issue is to add a GH booster to your water to increase calcium and magnesium levels in the water. Increasing your GH 2 degrees above the tap GH should be enough. Thrive also doesn't have sulfur another macro nutrient. So I would recommend a sulfate GH booster such as Sachem equilibrium or the Nilocg.com GH booster. That would eliminate any chance of the calcium, magnesium, sulfur and potassium deficiency. Potassium deficiency is not likely but most GH boosters included potassium.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Sorry you are going through some issues. Keep in mind, it can take some time to get a tank in balance. And as soon as you do, something else will come along to make you go “Huh???”. I don’t know of one successful plant keeper who has it all figured out and isn’t constantly trying something new.

Having kept both low tech and high tech tanks, I can relate what I see in your tank to my experiences.

Right now you have a mix of low light and med/high light plants. A tank dedicated to low light plants (crypts/swords/anubias/buce) has different needs than a tank with faster growing stems (Bacopa/L. Repens/Rotala). There is a reason you don’t seem them in the same tank very often. 

When I was low tech with low light plants, I was most successful with VERY low light and very light ferts. Those plants like to grow slowly and steady. Problem is in that environment, those stems will never flourish. When my anubias was the happiest, my stems were withering and dying. And if I tried to please the stems, then the low light plants suffered.

So I would take things one step at a time. First decide what is it you want the tank to be? Then make decisions based on that. Your lighting and fert needs will be completely different depending on what you want to grow. And honestly without CO2, I doubt you will be very successful with the stems long term, so I would focus on making the low light plants happy for now.

Good luck and I look forward to following along.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Surf said:


> You listed the GH and KH of the tank water but not for the tap. Could you provide the Tap GH and KH? With a TDS of 51 I would assume it is very soft. But TDS cannot be converted to GH
> 
> Thrive like most fertilizers doesn't include calcium, a macro nutrient. Your water might be soft enough that you are running out of calcium. When you have a deficiency plants cannot consume all the nutrients in the water and algae takes advantage of this because it is very good grower with very low nutrient levels. This would slow plant growth and encourage algae and could also result in a lot of nitrate and phosphate buildup in the tank water.
> 
> Once way to address this issue is to add a GH booster to your water to increase calcium and magnesium levels in the water. Increasing your GH 2 degrees above the tap GH should be enough. Thrive also doesn't have sulfur another macro nutrient. So I would recommend a sulfate GH booster such as Sachem equilibrium or the Nilocg.com GH booster. That would eliminate any chance of the calcium, magnesium, sulfur and potassium deficiency. Potassium deficiency is not likely but most GH boosters included potassium.


What would tap gh kh mean when the tank is constantly 6? I have Texas holy rock in the tank which is why I'm assuming my tank is 100 ppm higher than my tap,

My tap is the gh I was referring to in the post but I retested everything, tap Is kh 5 gh 6, tank is actually a bit softer than my tap which makes no sense to me at kh turned light light green at 4 so I'm assuming 4-4.5 and gh was still 6. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Sorry you are going through some issues. Keep in mind, it can take some time to get a tank in balance. And as soon as you do, something else will come along to make you go “Huh???”. I don’t know of one successful plant keeper who has it all figured out and isn’t constantly trying something new.
> 
> Having kept both low tech and high tech tanks, I can relate what I see in your tank to my experiences.
> 
> ...


I don't quite understand what you mean, all my plants are low/med - high light I triple checked before I bought them and asked others about them, I have L repens which are med-high, bacopa caroliniana is low, rotala is med-high, crypts are low/med, Buce is low if you only want decorative, if you want faster growth its med-high, Amazon is low-high, anubias is med -high , I have a fully programmable light so I can go high, med or low, I can see what you mean about the l repens/rotala as they grow better under med high which is like every penny 8 have except the bacopa, is there no in between? Like a happy medium? If this is the case I will take a sledge hammer to everything because that would mean I just wasted a lot of money. 

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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

My two-cents:

Well, I’m one that tries to get people into glut/Excel (especially for low-tech setups).

Try hitting some of the “BGA” with H2O2 from a syringe/pipette. If the place where you hit it dramatically changes (may disappear) in a couple hours then it is likely BGA and Chemiclean does a great job for that. If not, it’s algae. If it is BGA, are you getting enough gas exchange (rippling the surface)?

I think I also see some BBA and I notice that your PO4 is on the very low side. Getting PO4 up to 3-4ppm (I run it at 10 – in a high-tech setup) may help a lot in controlling that type of algae. Root tabs are unnecessary – all nutrients can be supplied in the water column.

Throw the API nitrate kit in the trash (API does make good PO4 and GH/KH kits, though). The Salifert is definitely better. As @Quagulator said, 40ppm NO3 isn’t terrible, but you certainly don’t need to dose it, which may mean getting into being more customized in your ferts, especially if you decide to add more PO4. Use Purigen in your filter. It will help tremendously in bringing the NO3 down (does so by removing the nitrogenous organics). Overall, as @Greggz mentioned, you should be fine with low nutrients.

I am concerned that the high light is harming your plants, though. It drives them to grow, but they can’t without CO2. Excel will only take them so far. High light with no CO2 is a good way to grow algae. When you say you have high light, do you know what your PAR is at the substrate? A shorter photoperiod may help if it really is high light.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Edited the previous post after doing quick research every single plant I have grows faster in med/high light the only true low light plant I have is bacopa caroliniana. 

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

p0tluck said:


> I don't quite understand what you mean, all my plants are low/med - high light I triple checked before I bought them and asked others about them, I have L repens which are med-high, bacopa caroliniana is low, rotala is med-high, crypts are low, Buce is low Amazon is low-high, anubias is low, I have a fully programmable light so I can go high, med or low, I can see what you mean about the l repens/rotala as they grow better with med-high where Buce anubias like low but is there no in between? Like a happy medium? If this is the case I will take a sledge hammer to everything because that would mean I just wasted a lot of money.


Yes, exactly what you just said. Your stems (L. Repens, Bacopa, Rotala) are med to high light.

Everything else you have is low light. 

Pleasing them all and getting the best out of each in one tank will be difficult. At least that has been my experience. I would choose one or the other, as they have different needs.

And if you decide to concentrate more on stems, then I would highly recommend CO2, or you might be banging your head against the wall for some time. Just being honest.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Deanna said:


> My two-cents:
> 
> Well, I’m one that tries to get people into glut/Excel (especially for low-tech setups).
> 
> ...


I don't own a par meter but at 100% it's 82 par @18" from the par chart that was recently released, I literally have my light on 40%, excel does not add co2 in an amount that will benefit your plants but it does help with algae, also it is detrimental to fish and plants with extended use, sorry but that option is off the table don't mean to sound negative but read this and you'll understand that you get 25x more co2 from gaseous exchange than you do from excel meaning you get 25 more by doing nothing









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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Yes, exactly what you just said. Your stems (L. Repens, Bacopa, Rotala) are med to high light.
> 
> Everything else you have is low light.
> 
> ...


No I rewrote it, bacopa is the only true low light plant I have, buce/anubias actually grow thicker and faster in med light, crypts like lower light but will grow under any, I'm so confused as I just looked up 8 different plants and everyone of them can grow in med-high but only a few can grow in low 

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

p0tluck said:


> Edited the previous post after doing quick research every single plant I have grows faster in med/high light the only true low light plant I have is bacopa caroliniana.


Well two things then.

If that is really true, and they all like med/high light, then you better get CO2 and up your fert dosing right away. Because light drives demand for CO2 and ferts. With high light and no CO2 I would be prepared for a long battle with algae, and one you won't likely win.

And I didn't look it up in a book or website, but have kept Crypts/Swords/Anubias for decades, and trust me they are much easier to keep in low light. You shine some high light on those, I would fully expect loads of algae, unless you have everything else 100% absolutely perfect. In low light expect slow growth but relatively easy to care for. 

Again, just my advice based on my personal experience. Others experience might be different.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Greggz said:


> Well two things then.
> 
> If that is really true, and they all like med/high light, then you better get CO2 and up your fert dosing right away. Because light drives demand for CO2 and ferts. With high light and no CO2 I would be prepared for a long battle with algae, and one you won't likely win.
> 
> ...


I just Googled all the plants, I'm. Sure you're right about the anubias and Buce growing more slow and steady under low light but from the things I read both Buce and anubias grow bushier and faster in medium light,, I'm sure the rotala and l repens would be better under high, dennis wong told me to fix my issue I need more plants as more healthy plants will prevent algae from taking hold, before I added the tabs everything was fine, I had minimal Algae with my light turned up more than it is now, I'm thinking that the plants can't consume as much ferts as I'm Adding so the algae is going wild from there being excess, if I had a bigger more robust plant mass the dosage of nutrients im adding world be totally consumed, it's just a theory as i stated im New to this whole thing and shouldn't of added the root tabs as that's when my problems started . 

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## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> I don't own a par meter but at 100% it's 82 par @18" from the par chart that was recently released, I literally have my light on 40%, excel does not add co2 in an amount that will benefit your plants but it does help with algae, also it is detrimental to fish and plants with extended use, sorry but that option is off the table don't mean to sound negative but read this and you'll understand that you get 25x more co2 from gaseous exchange than you do from excel meaning you get 25 more by doing nothing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't rely on that one anecdotal comment about the supposed negatives of glut. There are far too many studies showing that it is beneficial (including a number by Tom Barr). When I ran a low-tech setup, it greatly benefited my plants (differences in plant performance were obvious) and my fish, shrimp and plants never suffered as compared to any other period over 50 years. I ran with the Excel for about ten years. You can only ever maintain about 2.5 ppm CO2 from atmospheric CO2, no matter how much gas exchange you have. Glut adds carbon directly as well as a small amount of CO2 as it decays. In the case of carbon, whatever it's source, more is better until you reach about 40ppm CO2.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

p0tluck said:


> I'm thinking that the plants can't consume as much ferts as I'm Adding so the algae is going wild from there being excess, if I had a bigger more robust plant mass the dosage of nutrients im adding world be totally consumed, it's just a theory as i stated im New to this whole thing and shouldn't of added the root tabs as that's when my problems started


In my experience, too little ferts is far more likely to cause algae than too much. Unhealthy starving plants are magnet for algae. And personally I've never seen excess ferts cause algae. 

And really excess ferts is your least concern......4ml of Thrive in your tank provides...................NO3 2.54, Po4	0.47, and K 1.88................which is almost nothing. You are pretty close now to not dosing at all. And you don't want the nutrients to ever be totally consumed. In that case, trust me your plants will be starving.

I do agree, adding loads of plant mass can only help, but it won't cure everything.

Bump:


Deanna said:


> I wouldn't rely on that one anecdotal comment about the supposed negatives of glut. There are far too many studies showing that it is beneficial (including a number by Tom Barr). When I ran a low-tech setup, it greatly benefited my plants (differences in plant performance were obvious) and my fish, shrimp and plants never suffered as compared to any other period over 50 years. I ran with the Excel for about ten years. You can only ever maintain about 2.5 ppm CO2 from atmospheric CO2, no matter how much gas exchange you have. Glut adds carbon directly as well as a small amount of CO2 as it decays. In the case of carbon, whatever it's source, more is better until you reach about 40ppm CO2.


+1. No question to me that low tech benefits from Glut. Have never seen a negative effect ever on fish. 

And make no mistake, Glut is not even close to a substitute for CO2. There is no comparison. But in a low tech environment it can make a significant positive difference.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Deanna said:


> I wouldn't rely on that one anecdotal comment about the supposed negatives of glut. There are far too many studies showing that it is beneficial (including a number by Tom Barr). When I ran a low-tech setup, it greatly benefited my plants (differences in plant performance were obvious) and my fish, shrimp and plants never suffered as compared to any other period over 50 years. I ran with the Excel for about ten years. You can only ever maintain about 2.5 ppm CO2 from atmospheric CO2, no matter how much gas exchange you have. Glut adds carbon directly as well as a small amount of CO2 as it decays. In the case of carbon, whatever it's source, more is better until you reach about 40ppm CO2.


It's not a random Post, it's also verified from Pretty much every top aquascaper in the low tech and high tech aquarium groups on fb whom include Tom Barr, dennis wong, Kevin grant, Dave O'Bryant and many many others, nilcog just came out with a new fert that contains carbon that isn't glut which I might switch too, I also have a 12 page scientific document that shows the affects about gluts affects to plant cellular structure and fish. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Greggz said:


> In my experience, too little ferts is far more likely to cause algae than too much. Unhealthy starving plants are magnet for algae. And personally I've never seen excess ferts cause algae.
> 
> And really excess ferts is your least concern......4ml of Thrive in your tank provides...................NO3 2.54, Po40.47, and K 1.88................which is almost nothing. You are pretty close now to not dosing at all. And you don't want the nutrients to ever be totally consumed. In that case, trust me your plants will be starving.
> 
> ...


Okay that makes a lot more sense as many people have said I drastically need to increase my column dosing to more like 8 ml, but that still doesn't explain why my tank exploded when I essentially increased my dose when I added root tabs even though not a lot of the nutrients from the tabs leech into the water Culumn. 

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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

p0tluck said:


> It's not a random Post, it's also verified from Pretty much every top aquascaper in the low tech and high tech aquarium groups on fb whom include Tom Barr, dennis wong, Kevin grant, Dave O'Bryant and many many others, nilcog just came out with a new fert that contains carbon that isn't glut which I might switch too, I also have a 12 page scientific document that shows the affects about gluts affects to plant cellular structure and fish.


Personally I would do less reading of 12 page scientific papers and do more observing and experimenting with your own tank. The tank don't lie.

Good luck, hope you get it all figured out.


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## MCFC (Feb 12, 2017)

p0tluck said:


> shouldn't of added the root tabs as that's when my problems started


If only someone had mentioned something to you before you did... 


MCFC said:


> The "root feeder" thing is a myth. All plants will do fine with just water column dosing.
> 
> And by adding a ball of ferts into the substrate to release an unknown amount of ferts at an unknown time, aren't you actually adding to the guess work? Because now your weekly fert doses are X amount from Thrive + ?? amount from root tabs...



I would also just like to say I've used excel/glut many times over the years and have never had any real negative effects on either fish or plants. Some vals melted a bit with higher doses, but they all bounced back even more resilient. Just my 2 nickels


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

MCFC said:


> If only someone had mentioned something to you before you did...
> 
> 
> 
> I would also just like to say I've used excel/glut many times over the years and have never had any real negative effects on either fish or plants. Some vals melted a bit with higher doses, but they all bounced back even more resilient. Just my 2 nickels


I think you stated that they aren't nessessary, but in a low tech tank feeding both pathways is the ideal scenario as heavy root feeders absorb more of some specific nutrients through their roots, my substrate has a lot of dust that didn't come clean when I rinsed it, therefor the water column dosing really does not get into the substrate, I need to get some trumpet snails to aerate my gravel bed, but everyone says excess ferts don't cause algae but I got a crap load after adding root tabs Humm it's a catch 22. 

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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Pick up the wood with anubias (in your picture 7) just a bit off substrate for a moment - what happens?
That's the problem, not the root tabs or too much ferts.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

OVT said:


> Pick up the wood with anubias (in your picture 7) just a bit off substrate for a moment - what happens?
> That's the problem, not the root tabs or too much ferts.


A big cloud of gravel dust which I have been trying to syphon out for the last 2 years

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## Surf (Jun 13, 2017)

> tap Is kh 5 gh 6, tank is actually a bit softer than my tap which makes no sense to me


The GH test only measures the combined calcium and magnesium concentration in the water. If it is dropping it means your plants are consuming it. But in most cases there is enough GH in the water the most people don't notice the GH dropping over the week. If you are I would definitely try a GH booster. The GH booster only has to be dosed once per week. Typically that is done during the weekly water change.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

p0tluck said:


> A big cloud of gravel dust which I have been trying to syphon out for the last 2 years


Exactly. And most of it is organic waste. And the reason why I know what is going on with your tank is because I've been there. Not the end of the world. I would take a deep breath and think this through logically, without the understandable emotions.

What is going on is the following: the grain size of the sand is such that organic matter, like food, waste, leaf and wood decay, falls through and gets trapped. The nature of your scape (rocks, driftwood) and an HOB filter result in even higher levels of organics getting trapped. The dimentions of the 55g tank (long and tall) do not help either.

When you inserted the root tabs, some of the organics escaped into the water column and you got a small spike. 
When you vacuum the substrate, the bulk of the organics in that spot gets sucked out, avoiding a spike.

On the plus side, you have "normal" tap (mine is worse), most of your plants are doing ok, you have adjustable light, and you already have a lot of experience with this tank.

On the minus side, is the substrate + filtration.

The logical approach would be to keep vacuuming the substrate to keep the organics lower but that's a Sisyphos task. You did not get a tank to be a slave.

Are you stuck forever? I personally do not believe so as a number of short / long term approaches come to mind. How would *you* handle the situation? I am always happy to bounce ideas around, if need be.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

I'd like to throw my $0.05 on low tech + higher light tanks. 

It can be done "in my experience" YMMV. The only way I have been able to do it is start the tank as a true low light, low tech tank with your typical crypt / java / anubias / val setup. Eventually (years.... not a few months) the plant mass will be big enough (a lot of plant mass would be best) and the tank will be balanced enough to warrant some stronger light..... and glut / excel! Ferts should be used to meet plant growth needs, that is something you can't read via a paper written by the latest and greatest guru, but rather by watching your own tank for responses to adjustments you make. I'm not saying anyone can do it, but I have been able to on a few previews tanks without creating a disaster. 

With that said, low light plants in a low light environment would always accumulate algae in my tanks. When I moved them into my high tech tanks they would grow 10 x better 10 x faster and with 10 x less algae.... quite the opposite to a few other members experiences. I absolutely love growing low light plants in high tech tanks, so cool to see "common" plants respond to high light / ferts / CO2. 

Anyways, I think your issues are coming from limited flow from the HOB filters, organics building up in the substrate / under rocks / under driftwood, inadequate dosing (Ca and Mg included) and a medium output light driving the need for nutrients. Excel / glut can and will be helpful here.

Lastly, I'll say it again. Your tank looks good to me! I think 40ppm is fine and manageable, a lot better than whatever my low tech tank is running at right now. Chemiclean will be about the only way to get rid of your BGA, more plants + better flow + less organics + adequate ferts + excel should clean up the other true algae to easily-manageable levels. I highly doubt the root tabs did anything to spark the algae or NO3 levels. 

Best of luck, you've been doing great so far, don't beat yourself up but rather get excited to try new things in the hobby!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Quagulator said:


> I'd like to throw my $0.05 on low tech + higher light tanks.
> 
> It can be done "in my experience" YMMV. The only way I have been able to do it is start the tank as a true low light, low tech tank with your typical crypt / java / anubias / val setup. Eventually (years.... not a few months) the plant mass will be big enough (a lot of plant mass would be best) and the tank will be balanced enough to warrant some stronger light..... and glut / excel! Ferts should be used to meet plant growth needs, that is something you can't read via a paper written by the latest and greatest guru, but rather by watching your own tank for responses to adjustments you make. I'm not saying anyone can do it, but I have been able to on a few previews tanks without creating a disaster.
> 
> With that said, low light plants in a low light environment would always accumulate algae in my tanks. When I moved them into my high tech tanks they would grow 10 x better 10 x faster and with 10 x less algae.... quite the opposite to a few other members experiences. I absolutely love growing low light plants in high tech tanks, so cool to see "common" plants respond to high light / ferts / CO2.


Good to hear your experience and great comments above. Yes, it can be done, and goes to show we all have somewhat different experiences. I agree building mass and stability over an extended period of time is great advice. 

But I should have clarified a bit. The OP indicated he doesn't have CO2 and doesn't intend to provide it. To me light driving demand but no CO2 is not a good recipe. 

When I was low tech (no CO2), the key to no algae was very low light. And personally, I never had much luck with stems in that environment. They would live for awhile, but would eventually get weak and fade away. Now could be I just wasn't very good at it, or didn't know enough to balance things properly. Just never worked out that well for me.


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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Greggz said:


> Good to hear your experience and great comments above. Yes, it can be done, and goes to show we all have somewhat different experiences. I agree building mass and stability over an extended period of time is great advice.
> 
> But I should have clarified a bit. The OP indicated he doesn't have CO2 and doesn't intend to provide it. To me light driving demand but no CO2 is not a good recipe.
> 
> When I was low tech (no CO2), the key to no algae was very low light. And personally, I never had much luck with stems in that environment. They would live for awhile, but would eventually get weak and fade away. Now could be I just wasn't very good at it, or didn't know enough to balance things properly. Just never worked out that well for me.


My key (I think) to running stronger lights and growing decent stems + no algae is a lean water column dosing approach on a very mature tank with a VERY mature substrate (no deep gravel vacuums and using root tabs). Regular 25-50% water changes every 1-2 weeks and lights at med-high with a "healthy" splash of Met / excel. 

I'll toss an example of a 65 gal tank running 200 watts of Power compact w/ good reflectors dosing very lean into the water column and running flourish tabs into 3 years of no deep vacuuming eco-complete. Lots of Excel 



















Notice the dwarf sag carpet isn't looking the healthiest.... That was caused by a switch to RO without remineralization and not enough ferts to feed the extremely fast growing sag (I have yet to grow it as fast ever since).


Of course, this is my experience only. I will be attempting a tank like this shortly, once I finish building a new stand. I'm excited to try and put REAL effort into a low tech tank again. I think this also further demonstrates that we can all read a book and follow directions, but each tank is so different that we need to venture out on our own and figure out what will work in our own tanks. Take the tank in my journal for example. I have never had plants be so stubborn before. I'm not new to high tech, but for whatever reason I cannot get things to grow properly despite me following everything that you successful members are doing.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I am with @Quagulator on this subject, with some minor exceptions in our experiences. My reply to OP was based on a couple of key conditions that need to fall in place to make these tanks work.

Here are a couple of tanks of mine that might also illustrate how it is possible.

The first is a 75g tall (48x15x24) with innert substrate that collects a lot of organics, with a lot of "long root" plants, "strategically" shaded by fast growing, light loving plants, no co2, no root tabs, no excel, only GreenLeaf fertilization maybe once a week, and under 65w x 4 CFL 12 hours a day, running in that configuration for some 10 years:










The second tank is more of the same. 34g corner, first under 65w x 2 CFL and later under 2 x t5ho. Yes, it's rotala macrandra on the left, unobstructed from the light. You can also guestimate the light intencity by the growing habit (leaves parallel to the substrate) of Echinodorus Osiris:










The beauty of this forum is the membership with deep, broad, and varied experiences. As individuals, we learn from each other when one's own experiences do not fall into a familiar territory.


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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

OVT said:


> Exactly. And most of it is organic waste. And the reason why I know what is going on with your tank is because I've been there. Not the end of the world. I would take a deep breath and think this through logically, without the understandable emotions.
> 
> What is going on is the following: the grain size of the sand is such that organic matter, like food, waste, leaf and wood decay, falls through and gets trapped. The nature of your scape (rocks, driftwood) and an HOB filter result in even higher levels of organics getting trapped. The dimentions of the 55g tank (long and tall) do not help either.
> 
> ...


I was told i could add dirt that are kinda like pebbles(forgot the name) , I've tried clarifier to bind the dust particulates to get picked up by the modified filters that have very fine poly fill, I was told not to vac as that's plant food but I see what you mean about releasing it into the water Culumn.

I need to replace that piece of driftwood it has a big slate base on the bottom which traps even More things, I vac that area every week as well as the open Area.

I'm Totally willing to try new things to make this easier on myself I don't mind putting work in to make something beautiful, I just have a limited budget as I'm disabled and the fish tank was started 6 years ago to help my anxiety, but it's increasing my anxiety with all the issues not helping it.



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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Quagulator said:


> My key (I think) to running stronger lights and growing decent stems + no algae is a lean water column dosing approach on a very mature tank with a VERY mature substrate (no deep gravel vacuums and using root tabs). Regular 25-50% water changes every 1-2 weeks and lights at med-high with a "healthy" splash of Met / excel.
> 
> I'll toss an example of a 65 gal tank running 200 watts of Power compact w/ good reflectors dosing very lean into the water column and running flourish tabs into 3 years of no deep vacuuming eco-complete. Lots of Excel
> 
> ...


I actually just watched a few videos from Dennis that states exactly this in a way, on his lighting video that states low, med, high, very high light, he states that the best outcome for a tank is not running it at high par but rather medium, that aquascapers only use high high par so they can complete scapes faster which leads to many different problems that running a tank at say 35-40 par would not, my brain isn't like his or yours or ovts or toms or greggz etc etc as everything is explained in very scientific words I don't comprehend, I need someone to color me a picture with a crayon , I'll figure what all this means in due time but I can't learn everything in 6 months, he also stated to Over shadow lower light plants with bushier plants/higher light plants , he's also told me I needed to fill tank up as I have WAY too much empty spaces which is a recipe for algae, and by adding more plants means I won't be fighting nature. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

I Just want to say thanks to everyone trying to help me, bare with me as I do get frustrated because this is new to me and I don't comprehend very in depth scientific approaches to this yet, I Need to rephrase my words as they come out like I already know what I'm doing but that's not how I mean them to come out and definitely don't know what I'm doing, I can build race cars, computers, explain in depth how to do graphic art etc etc as I have been doing it for so long but this is totally new to me so I apologize if some of my posts come across as negative, they're not they are just worded wrong. 

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## p0tluck (Feb 17, 2017)

Surf said:


> The GH test only measures the combined calcium and magnesium concentration in the water. If it is dropping it means your plants are consuming it. But in most cases there is enough GH in the water the most people don't notice the GH dropping over the week. If you are I would definitely try a GH booster. The GH booster only has to be dosed once per week. Typically that is done during the weekly water change.


What's weird is my gh is the exact same as the tap but the kh is lower than the tap by 1, my tap is 5 kh 6 gh, tank is 4 - 4.5 kh and 6 gh, I have Texas holy rock In the tank could this be why my gh doesn't go down? 

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## tamsin (Jan 12, 2011)

p0tluck said:


> What's weird is my gh is the exact same as the tap but the kh is lower than the tap by 1, my tap is 5 kh 6 gh, tank is 4 - 4.5 kh and 6 gh, I have Texas holy rock In the tank could this be why my gh doesn't go down?



Kh will deplete over time, but regular water change will correct it so it's not much below the tap. If you've rock that adds GH that might be why it's stable but it could equally just be your Kh is used up faster. Either way I wouldn't worry as long as it's stable over time and not creeping lower and lower.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

OVT said:


> I am with [MENTION=229041]Here are a couple of tanks of mine that might also illustrate how it is possible.
> 
> The first is a 75g tall (48x15x24) with innert substrate that collects a lot of organics, with a lot of "long root" plants, "strategically" shaded by fast growing, light loving plants, no co2, no root tabs, no excel, only GreenLeaf fertilization maybe once a week, and under 65w x 4 CFL 12 hours a day, running in that configuration for some 10 years:


Those are some really stunning tanks. Look uber healthy and beautifully presented. 

And a really interesting set up as well. I've got to digest that one for awhile. Not seen many combinations like that. Great food for thought. 

You should start up a journal on those. Deserves to be seen and lots to learn there.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

p0tluck said:


> , I'll figure what all this means in due time but I can't learn everything in 6 months, he also stated to Over shadow lower light plants with bushier plants/higher light plants , he's also told me I needed to fill tank up as I have WAY too much empty spaces which is a recipe for algae, and by adding more plants means I won't be fighting nature.


Now that I can finally post again...

If you take the advice that you were given, which is excellent by the way, you'll be good. All the other stuff to learn will come with time and experience.


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