# Dwarf hairgrass



## paulbert (Jan 22, 2017)

Mine does just fine with water column ferts and no root tabs.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Can be either, but if you can lock nutrients up in the substrate where algae can't get at it, you might as well. Hairgrass is a voracious root feeder.


----------



## Carson Albright (Apr 1, 2010)

I tried dh in flourite that was EI dosed a few years back, and I got no growth/spreading. Tried my hand again with ADA Aquasoil and it's been spreading like crazy. I think a nutrient rich substrate doesn't hurt.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

All aquatic plants that we keep will take their nutrients thru the water column. You don't need to add anything to the substrate.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> All aquatic plants that we keep will take their nutrients thru the water column. You don't need to add anything to the substrate.


They are all capable of it, but a) some have a preference and b) keeping nutrients in substrate can be beneficial for preventing algae.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Bananableps said:


> They are all capable of it, but a) some have a preference and b) keeping nutrients in substrate can be beneficial for preventing algae.


Did your DHG tell you it would prefer to be fed through the substrate? 

For the purposes of keeping a planted tank you DON'T need to put anything in the substrate if your dosing the water column. I have grown DHG in both nutrient rich substrates and inert and found no real difference.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> Did your DHG tell you it would prefer to be fed through the substrate?
> 
> For the purposes of keeping a planted tank you DON'T need to put anything in the substrate if your dosing the water column. I have grown DHG in both nutrient rich substrates and inert and found no real difference.


I misspoke. I meant to say there are relative preferences. DHG prefers to take nutrients in through roots more than plants like myrio, hornwort, and hydrocotyle do. As you note, from DHG's "perspective" there is probably no preference between water column and substrate. But seeing as there is another advantage to having nutrients in the substrate (hiding it from algae), I feel the scale is tipped in favor of substrate.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Bananableps said:


> I misspoke. I meant to say there are relative preferences. DHG prefers to take nutrients in through roots more than plants like myrio, hornwort, and hydrocotyle do. As you note, from DHG's "perspective" there is probably no preference between water column and substrate. *But seeing as there is another advantage to having nutrients in the substrate (hiding it from algae), I feel the scale is tipped in favor of substrate.*


If your referring to a soil-based substrate nothing could be further from the truth. I dose all my tanks heavy water column and never have algae. The whole EI system is based on it. How come Tom Barr and countless others dump ferts in and don't have algae issues. There are more algae-issues with soil-based tanks then another other substrate. 

Locked in? In reality that doesn't happen. You need to move things around. There's a reason for example Walsted tanks usually have the same 7-8 lowlight plants them. Because the high organic load in the soil doe not play nice with high light or being disturbed for aquascaping purposes. In addition to relay on just what's in the soil, you will be limited to what's available to the plants, when you dose you can increase or decrease based on need.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

houseofcards said:


> If your referring to a soil-based substrate nothing could be further from the truth. I dose all my tanks heavy water column and never have algae. The whole EI system is based on it. How come Tom Barr and countless others dump ferts in and don't have algae issues.



I'm talking about dirt or root tabs. I assume OP is asking about root tabs. You don't experience algae problems because you have, through trial and error (as Barr has), figured out exactly what combination of nutrients, light, and CO2 works for your tank. 

Tom Barr has and does keep some dirted tanks. The reason he and others also keep high tech tanks is because these types of setups allow you to get highest quality plant growth if you are an obsessive professional - that does not mean it's the only way to grow plants successfully and it does not mean it's the best approach for everyone.



> There are more algae-issues with soil-based tanks then another other substrate.


What is this based on? The "algae" subforum of plantedtank.net is full of high tech users.



> Locked in? In reality that doesn't happen. You need to move things around. There's a reason for example Walsted tanks usually have the same 7-8 lowlight plants them. Because the high organic load in the soil doe not play nice with high light or being disturbed for aquascaping purposes. In addition to relay on just what's in the soil, you will be limited to what's available to the plants, when you dose you can increase or decrease based on need.


Are you serious with this still? I keep over 60 plants in Walstad setups, no problem. I'm sure there are many more that work fine. You really just don't know.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Bananableps said:


> ...
> Are you serious with this still? I keep over 60 plants in Walstad setups, no problem. I'm sure there are many more that work fine. You really just don't know.


That's see them. I saw one tank that had the dirt mix with the capped which is typical when with soil and moving things around. The tank also had BBA in it. Another tank you grew on your sun porch next to the ice tea. 

Your the perfect candidate for soil, because you seem to think scaping a tank and getting your plants healthy are for professionals only. 



Bananableps said:


> ...Tom Barr has and does keep some dirted tanks. *The reason he and others also keep high tech tanks is because these types of setups allow you to get highest quality plant growth if you are an obsessive professional *- that does not mean it's the only way to grow plants successfully and it does not mean it's the best approach for everyone.


OK, a breakthrough I'm glad to hear you admit it that the highest quality plant growth is through high tech. I don't think the majority of my fellow aquarists on this forum are obsessive professionals to want this. Thank you!!!


----------



## Vohlk (Apr 8, 2016)

I think you both have good points, in my experience DHG likes a nutrient rich substrate (I have used aquasoil and dirt both worked), column dosing worked too but for me dirt worked better.
Thats just my experience there is more than one way to skin a cat.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Bananableps said:


> ...that does not mean it's the only way to grow plants successfully and it does not mean it's the best approach for everyone.


BTW you need to stop saying things and putting out statements that I never said and then back peddling. You've done this several times already. Go find one of my quotes where I said hi-tech water column dosing is the only way to do things and post it here. 

What I did say is that if your are going to scape a tank and move things around dirt is very difficult to work with especially for someone new to this. If your just putting plants in and enjoy watching them grow and don't plan on moving things around much dirt is fine. 

Dirt is also a limited system in that you don't know if there's enough nutrients just in the dirt to grow everything. You also have a smaller bandwidth to work with in terms of light and because of this plant species. With hi-tech your always dosing in excess and lighting can be greater since the water is changed and has lower organic content. You even put out a thread to discuss which plants will grow in dirt and which won't. THAT'S A LIMITED SYSTEM. No one is saying you can't grow plants in dirt.


----------



## Stacy1 (Dec 15, 2016)

I believe the answer to your question op is both


----------



## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

I don't think I have the knowledge to enter this discussion. I still haven't figured out how to keep the water column out of the substrate.


----------



## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

I have always agreed with you that high tech setups produce top level growth. You can go back and check that. I even created a thread dedicated to observing how certain plants do in dirt relative to high tech_ based on the assumption that most will not look as good_. I know you saw this thread, so I don't understand why you believe this statement is backpedaling when I say it now.




houseofcards said:


> BTW you need to stop saying things and putting out statements that I never said and then back peddling. You've done this several times already. Go find one of my quotes where I said hi-tech water column dosing is the only way to do things and post it here.
> 
> What I did say is that if your are going to scape a tank and move things around dirt is very difficult to work with especially for someone new to this. If your just putting plants in and enjoy watching them grow and don't plan on moving things around much dirt is fine.
> 
> Dirt is also a limited system in that you don't know if there's enough nutrients just in the dirt to grow everything. You also have a smaller bandwidth to work with in terms of light and because of this plant species. With hi-tech your always dosing in excess and lighting can be greater since the water is changed and has lower organic content. You even put out a thread to discuss which plants will grow in dirt and which won't. THAT'S A LIMITED SYSTEM. No one is saying you can't grow plants in dirt.


Our original disagreement was about which is better for someone starting out in the planted tank hobby: dirt or high tech. You have insisted that high tech is better for beginners:



houseofcards said:


> Agree, they both have their place in planted aquaria. And there are certainly some very seasoned hobbyists that use dirt and use it very well and develop some very impressive setups...
> 
> Overall though, dirt is harder to work with especially if your a newbie....


This is the statement I categorically oppose. Beginners shouldn't even be worrying about aquascaping before they learn how to keep aquatic plants alive. The ability to easily move plants around is not a big enough advantage to overcome the enormous initial investment of a high tech setup, the risks, and the steep knowledge curve. Also, you CAN move plants around in dirt: you just have to use scissors to cut the roots out at the base. It's really not a big deal. 




houseofcards said:


> Most of the tanks operate in a narrow bandwidth of plant selection and light due to the high organic content of the water that feeds the plants as opposed to the "cleaner" water of bigger water changes and dosing inorganic salts in most EI, ADA type setups.


You keep saying this as if dirted tank owners are still only growing swords and crypts. There are literally hundreds of plants that do well in dirt. Your insistence that there are only a few is based on absolutely nothing. You repeatedly argue that the plant selection for dirted tanks is limited, based on the fact that a 72 year old microbiologist with pretty much zero interest in aquascaping has a limited collection, as evidenced from photos you have seen in a 20 year old book. 

Here's some ludwigia cuba and limnophila aromatica:










Here's s. repens, dwarf lily, fissidens









Rotala Wallichii. Not the best wallichii in the world, but it also doesn't require weekly water changes, daily fert dosing, and the constant risk of gasing my fauna to death. The monte carlo carpet is taking awhile to get established, but I've got time. Blyxa japonica is one of hundreds of other very easy to care for plants that does great in dirt.










This tank isn't looking so hot: it's newly planted, things still need to adapt and grow in. But all of these cuttings (except the ludwigia that still has emergent growth on the right - that's from Prospect Park) were grown out in other dirted tanks I keep, so it still counts. Pretty sure Diana Walstad did not keep proserpinaca palustris.











This is a shot of my nursery tank. It's a mess, but that's my fault, not dirt's. Here, you can see that with sufficient lighting you can get some very nice color in dirt:


----------



## Deanna (Feb 15, 2017)

I keep these two threads in my back pocket for when I start to think I should use root tabs:

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/33-plants/876457-so-called-heavy-root-feeders-fact-fiction.html

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...iscussion/5657-root-feeders-water-column.html

note the comment from the guru's guru in the second post.

PS: I have DHG in Flourite with no tabs and it was spreading fine until it ran into my all-conquering dwarf sag. Now it tries to push through where it can.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@Deanna

I like this post from Tom Barr in one of your links. Pretty much what I was saying from the beginning. There isn't a preference, they will take it anyone they can get it. If your going to do one, dose the water column that assures all plants will get the ferts including Anubias, ferns, mosses, floaters, etc.

_

"Actually most all aquatic plants will get nutrients through either the leaves or the roots(if they have them). Problem is that in nature often there are very low nutrients in the water column. 

If you supply good nutrient levels to the water column, the plants will take it up from there. 

This has been shown in numerous research studies on aquatic plants(Madsen and Cedergreen 2001 etc), and you can also try it yourself by using inorganic salts like KNO3. 

Adding a little something under the plants will not hurt but neither will adding it to the water column. 

*Plants do not "Prefer" root uptake over water column uptake, it is simply a function of their variable environment which tends to have low nutrient levels in the water column overall."*

- Tom Barr_


----------

