# Nitrate at 5ppm. Is that alright for shrimp?



## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

5 PPM should be okay, but if you have a planted tank why do you want it to be 0? Nitrates are very important to planted tanks!


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

I want "0" for the health and breeding of the shrimp. The shrimp will always produce nitrate so I never add anthing else. If I am at "0" I know my plants are keeping up with the nitrate produced by the shrimp, and working as a plant filter of sorts. If I see higher then "0", like 5ppm then the plants I have are not keeping up. And I will have to with water changes or more plants.


----------



## James From Cali (Dec 15, 2006)

Your shrimp will be fine. Dont be so frustrated with it. I heard of people breeding shrimp in tanks where they have nitrates at 10 and no problems. Dont fret. And the plants will use it up no matter what. People who have dense planted tanks have up to 20ppm NO3 and yet there plants are keeping up with everything. Remeber that filters hold the baacteria colony as well and therefore your filter also sends out nitrates from the decomposing matter within it. Nitrates are essential for the tank as they are the what keeps ammonia from building up. Just dont let them get way high.


----------



## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

Are you adding any other fertilizers? What are your P04 readings? Your Nitrate uptake will be slowed greatly if you dont have a good N03/P04 balance as well as a decent level of C02. There is far more to Nitrate uptake than just having plants! But again, 5ppm is not a scary thing!


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

Dwarfpufferfish said:


> Are you adding any other fertilizers? What are your P04 readings? Your Nitrate uptake will be slowed greatly if you dont have a good N03/P04 balance as well as a decent level of C02. There is far more to Nitrate uptake than just having plants! But again, 5ppm is not a scary thing!


I am adding nothing. PO4 is "0". CO2 is at 30ppm. I do not want to add any fertz as that may cause problems with the shrimp in the long run. Thanks Dwarfpufferfish.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

if you don't add other ferts, the plants will not consume no3.


algae will though.


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

Sounds like I will have to control it with H2O changes. I just do not want to add fertz to a shrimp tank. Thanks mistergreen


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

you can add a little fertz though... and lower your lights & CO2..
I don't think there's a bad story out there about adding ferts in a shrimp tank.


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

My plants are great in that tank. Grow like crazy, more then in my bigger high light tanks. So adding fertz to get my NO3 lower is strange to me in this tank. My other tanks I use EI and love it, but fretz with shrimp in my tank do not mix. I had deaths in the past when I added. When I stopped my deaths stopped. I know 5ppm NO3 is low, I am just looking for someone with Tigers, Dark green, RCS, or CRS that breed and see what there NO3 is.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

CO2 is much more toxic than NO3 FYI relation to the same units of PPM's.

So why would add something we know kills shrimp easily rather than going for less is better mentality?

Why does this logic fall out the door when you add KNO3?

I'd like someone to answer this one for me.

Why is 30ppm of CO2 better than say 3 ppm and why is 30ppm of NO3 worse than 3ppm of NO3?

There is a definite disjuction in the logic, it the toxicity test that have been on shrimp.

NH4 derived NO3 is radically different than KNO3 derived NO3.
Ask yourself "why".

If anal retentive breeding is the goal, then simply grow them in bare bottom tanks to get max fry and the largest stock, that's what Discus breeders, angel breeders, most breeders do. You have a trade off with planted tank breeding, but do not go all the way one direction or the other.......use common sense:thumbsup: 

the other issue is that you need some confidence in those test kits, unless you calibrate them, you really are just guessing and assuming that their readings are correct.

That's a big assumption in this entire matter/topic.
I've had plenty of Cherries and amanos with lots of eggs and fry from the cherries at 20-30ppm of NO3. I only managed to kill amano's at 160ppm + after 3 days using KNO3. You can kill them easily with NH4 however.......

Regards, 
Tom Barr



Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

plantbrain said:


> If anal retentive breeding is the goal, then simply grow them in bare bottom tanks to get max fry and the largest stock, that's what Discus breeders, angel breeders, most breeders do. You have a trade off with planted tank breeding, but do not go all the way one direction or the other.......use common sense:thumbsup:


I am using common sense, I simple asked if 5ppm NO3 was ok for shrimp. My goal is a self sustaining shrimp colony in a nice to look at low tech planted tank, not an "anal retentive" breeding operation. 

My test kit is fine, I tested it against 3 other tanks and my tap water. 

I did not know CO2 was toxic to shrimp at 30ppm, I am going to lower it, thanks for that info Tom. 

Something must be working plant wise as it has no trouble growing anything in it. My concern is the shrimp and how to better their environment.

I have done a ton of reading on shrimp sites and alot of them say try to get the cleanest water you can have. that is my goal and that is why I do not want to add anything else to the tank. 

I am simply asking if 5ppm NO3 is ok for shrimp. If anyone has some experience with sensitive shrimp and nitrates please let me know.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

soh15 said:


> I am using common sense, I simple asked if 5ppm NO3 was ok for shrimp. My goal is a self sustaining shrimp colony in a nice to look at low tech planted tank, not an "anal retentive" breeding operation.
> 
> My test kit is fine, I tested it against 3 other tanks and my tap water.


Well then, 5ppm is some measure you got _from somewhere_, it's not some arbitrary figure you pulled out of your head.

I'm not suggesting you personally are anal retentive, the methods employed by the zealous breeders are, and folks often ask them what's best for their fish/shrimp etc, they do not weigh plant's needs into the system, nor consider additions of KNO3.

They breed etc, not keep plants as a rule.

Testing 3 other tanks with the same test kit is not a reference point, using a known reference standard is however. Generally 3 or two pouints are used, say 5ppm and 50ppm of NO3.
Then you take a sample of each and use them to see if the test koit is accurate over that range.

Very few test kits sold in the hobby are that accurate or reliable at low NO3 levels, this is 1.15ppm as N-NO3 (~5ppm NO3).
User testing can cause issues as well.



> I did not know CO2 was toxic to shrimp at 30ppm, I am going to lower it, thanks for that info Tom.


It's not toxic if you test it.
Same deal here with NO3.
That was the point............
However some claim that it stresses their fish, or harms their shrimp.
Yet many other folks do so without any issue.
Research test have suggested levels in the 30-50ppm range elthal, but this depends on O2 levels at the same time.

If you have lots of organic matter, then the O2 will be consumed by bacteria, and the CO2 levels will rise as respiration increases, the CO2 is correlation, however , it does suggest that it causes toxicity by itself.

If you try and keep shrimp at say 50ppm of CO2, and 50ppm of NO3, the shrimp will much more stressed out, sick,dead etc

But folks add CO2 without giving the same level of concern to CO2 as they might for NO3.

That's the point here.



> Something must be working plant wise as it has no trouble growing anything in it. My concern is the shrimp and how to better their environment.
> 
> I have done a ton of reading on shrimp sites and alot of them say try to get the cleanest water you can have. that is my goal and that is why I do not want to add anything else to the tank.


And that is why I said what I said and now I know, I did suspect, where you got 5ppm as a goal or less is better. There is the anal retentive advice we so often see. We also hear this from discus folks also and reef folks etc etc. Been this way for decades.

Rather than trying to define the system by the parameters of the water, try to define the system by the biology:thumbsup: 

The plants will define the system and produce high levels of O2 and maintain extremely low levels of NH4 via direct uptake.

Healthy plants = healthy fish.
A mountain of research suggested moderate plant coverage in the 50% or slightly higher range produces the highest and densest fish populations.

If all you have is water and no plants, then all you have is the water to go by. So their advice is based on that, not an understanding of plants and aquatic biology.



> I am simply asking if 5ppm NO3 is ok for shrimp. If anyone has some experience with sensitive shrimp and nitrates please let me know.


I did and explained why you have several different opinions and examples of higher levels without issues. I've used shrimp for decades as well as KNO3 and plants.

The simple answer is it's fine.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

Cool Tom, that was the information I needed. Great advice.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

if it's a low tech tank, you don't need 30ppm of CO2... You might not even need to inject CO2.. I have a few low-techs and it's growing fine without injected CO2.


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

I will lower the CO2, I did not have it on there the first 2 months and had algae issues. Now retracing everything I think during my H2O changes I am disrupting the Eco too much, causing the small levels of NO3 to show up. Next time I do a H20 change I will make sure I don't . Could this be it?


----------



## Dwarfpufferfish (May 29, 2004)

I have many VERY sensitive shrimp and have said multiple times that 5ppm of NO3 is not a scary thing! But I am just confused by your logic is all? Why would you inject CO2 but ad no other fertz? The only thing that could harm shrimp if you ad fertz in a normal manner is copper. If you dont want to bother with the fertz, I wouldn't bother with the CO2!


----------



## soh15 (May 5, 2005)

Before I added CO2 the tank had alage, when I added CO2 it went away. I think I will lower it, but the CO2 did make the plants grow much better and that helped get rid of my alage problem. That is my logic.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Your eco substrate probably provided most if not all of the nutrients in your tank.. Adding CO2 helped the plants take up those nutrients...

I don't know how long or much nutrients eco has but eventually, it'll run out and your plants will starv. Adding ferts will replenish the tank... Shrimp poop would too actually. You'd need lots of shrimps. But like Barr said, this route is the NH4 -> NO2 -> NO3 route.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

soh15 said:


> I will lower the CO2, I did not have it on there the first 2 months and had algae issues. Now retracing everything I think during my H2O changes I am disrupting the Eco too much, causing the small levels of NO3 to show up. Next time I do a H20 change I will make sure I don't . Could this be it?


That organic matter does not start off as NO3, it starts off as reduced carbon and reduced N. Then bacteria go after it in the O2 rich water column. This oxidizes the reduced carbon and reduce N to give NH4, then that is oxidized further to NO2.............then finallly........................to NO3.

You'll see several steps there, and by the time we measure some residual, it's all NO3. Unless you are specifically looking for and testing, you will miss all that and assume it's all NO3..........

However, simply taking some bottom muck and shaking it in a sealed jar is a great method to remove virtually all the O2. This drops the O2 and also pulls up settled algae spores which now have light and NH4. 

Now obviously these processes are quite removed and different than adding KNO3. 

Pulling up muck from an older sediment can cause havoc. I suggest doing a very large water change anytime this is done.

I think you'd do well to go the non CO2 planted tank route, this way you can maintain the very low nutrient levels, slower plant growth rates, easier care, less work, less cost, since plants grow slower, they will need less nutrients, so you can use less and still have nice growth.


That meets your goal and reduces cost/labor.

Win-win.

See the threads here and here's a tiny cherry shrimp and Clown Killi tank I had for 3 years:










Regards, 
Tom Barr


----------

