# Why do scapers take a great driftwood centerpiece - and then cover it with epiphytes?



## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Seen it over and over..why spend big bucks,then cover it in mosses and plants until you cant even see the shape or wood? Makes no sense to me. I think the best piece for epiphytes would be some 3-6" diameter branch or root..that needs no bends but for a fork here and there and THAT you can cover with all your hearts delight.
I tell you.. I also don't see any normal human ( lol) keeping Java Moss pruned tight to some twisty root. Its just not possible to do that so often as it takes. Again,a fat piece of wood or wide rock is the best way.
Just had to get out of my system.
You do know that so many great tanks photos are staged for the moment the photo is taken and not something that can exist for months let alone years?


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## minorhero (Mar 28, 2019)

I think its a to each their own kind of thing. I just love seeing a big ol piece of wood with plants growing all over it. It echos what I see when out walking in the woods. Most (all?) of the contest tanks are definitely too high of maintenance to be kept around and in top form constantly. They are not designed for permanence any more than a super car is designed to be the vehicle you take the kids to school in or pick up a weeks worth of groceries. But they are still pretty cool to see.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Stan510 said:


> Seen it over and over..why spend big bucks,then cover it in mosses and plants until you cant even see the shape or wood? Makes no sense to me. I think the best piece for epiphytes would be some 3-6" diameter branch or root..that needs no bends but for a fork here and there and THAT you can cover with all your hearts delight.
> I tell you.. I also don't see any normal human ( lol) keeping Java Moss pruned tight to some twisty root. Its just not possible to do that so often as it takes. Again,a fat piece of wood or wide rock is the best way.
> Just had to get out of my system.
> You do know that so many great tanks photos are staged for the moment the photo is taken and not something that can exist for months let alone years?


I'm not sure what your point is. Your dictating what you like and everyone should do the same. I've seen tanks with minimal planting that looks good and others where everything is covered. Why don't you at least show what you accomplished. Tanks with epiphytes can actually be maintained long-term since there isn't constant trimming and out of control growth and many are not staged for the moment.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

My point is..why pick a great looking piece of wood at some expense from the aqua store meant for the dead center of your aquarium,and then make it an amorphous blob of green? They might as well have just used a big hunk of trunk that you can pick out of any river nearby. Yet,they cover Spiderwood,or Manzanita...why? 
Its like buying a Ferrari..and then drive it with the car cover still on it..lol..with only cutouts for the windows!


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Because they like it that way. Aquascaping isn’t that simple and why aren’t you showing what you’ve accomplished doing it your way.


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## FischAutoTechGarten (Jul 11, 2003)

I guess after 9 days and 14 posts here on tPT.net, he just had things he needed to get off his chest.... ;p


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## STUDENT OF THE GAME (Jan 27, 2021)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Bserve (Nov 4, 2012)

It's not always the case... in AGA 2019 or 2020 one of the ranked scapes used bare wood as it's centerpiece. That said, it's also a preference of contest judges, so that factors in as well.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I've kept fish for near 50 years and once worked as an aquatic technicians for a local Museum as well as managing a University greenhouse. Also was offered a job at the Academy of sciences as an aquarist at one time.
So,I know fish.
But,the hard sell of aquascaping has quirks. Like how does high Co2 levels shorten fish lifespan? Or that constant dosing of nutrients great for plants,but not needed at all by fish.
Right now,I'm only running a 240 gallon of large Rainbow fish and young clown loaches with a mixture of other fish. I've posted many photos on Tropical Fish Forums.net. Stans trials and tribulations. Since my last photos I've added some rockwork and Alternanthera. Otherwise,you see it more or less.


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## NoodleAquatics (Mar 2, 2020)

In nature, in plant heavy rivers, wood catches debris, plantlets, etc in the current, offering a natural place to grow wild. 
Or gets covered in algae and can't be seen anyways.

So, some people like to replicate that?
This hobby is awesome in that there's so right or wrong way to do something like aquascaping.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Its not a right or wrong..just quirky that some people buy expensive wood...then cover it all. Its like buying a Pirate ship for your kids tank,,,then cover it in moss and Anubias-lol. "Dad,where's Spongebob??"..


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## Aaronious (Oct 20, 2020)

pretty sure you've made your point.... that you don't see the point. 

but others do. 

I mean a lot of those people with super cars never take them out of their garages. or just do once or twice. But they like to know they can if they wanted. Those who cover pricier pieces of wood do so because they like knowing there is something beautiful under the other beautiful stuff. kinda like adding chrome parts to your engine. or wearing silk underwear. 

Think I like the silk underwear analogy a little too much.


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

Sounds a lot like yelling at the kids on their skateboards about their rock music.

It bothers you because you're allowing it to. Do what you want and mind your own. You aren't the one spending the money, they are.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

No,I'm the only one not a sheep..and making perfect sensible logic. One day,you will age enough to get that I was right and how its kind of crazy to order Spiderwood at a hefty price..then cover it in moss and Anubias to the point you cant even tell what they are attached to.
You people sure are sensitive-lol.
Angry over this.😂 Its my observation and I'm sticking to it!


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## Jonathankeary (Dec 29, 2020)

Straight boring wood makes straight boring green globs with epiphytes. Beautiful Irregularly shaped wood makes beautiful irregularly shaped green globs with epiphytes.


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## sm1ke (Jun 30, 2016)

You whine about what other people are doing with *their* property. Then you get defensive when someone reminds you that they are free to do whatever they want with things they own, as long as they aren't breaking any laws. And you're calling others sensitive? 

I get that its your preference, and that it's not what you would do. Thankfully it isn't up to you, and people have the freedom to scape however they want. All of your experience and all of the credentials in the world will not change that.

Enjoy the rest of your day.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Its not a preference per se. Its the basic idea of spend plenty of extra dinero for red Manzanita or twisted Spider root...then basic remove all that you bought it for! I mean,you could tie Bird perches together and in a few short months have the same look..ha..well,almost.
Look at Amano's Lisbon tank...other than a bit- and very small bit- that Ironwood he used is invisible...He could have used 2x4's and a year later it would look the same..wink.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Stan510 said:


> ...why spend big bucks, then cover it in mosses and plants until you cant even see the shape or wood? Makes no sense to me
> 
> ...You do know that so many great tanks photos are staged for the moment the photo is taken and not something that can exist for months let alone years?
> 
> ...But, the hard sell of aquascaping has quirks. Like how does high Co2 levels shorten fish lifespan? Or that constant dosing of nutrients great for plants, but not needed at all by fish.


You seem to be anti-aquascaping, or high-tech in general. Any other complaints?


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I think many things about aquariums are glossed over thanks to the photos and vids of scapers. I thought the easy one would go first.
I'm not the only one..I've seen posts made on British aquatic plant forums that were spot on..one said after looking at a big bucks nano tano set up- easily near 2 thousand after top of the lights,tank,and system for 20 gallons was "But for the very few small fish,you could do the same in tank with no water"..terrarium style he meant. He got plenty of thumbs up.
I'm a plant person..worked in Horticulture...but I need my fish tank to have fish!


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

You know, I would be very interested in a tank that looked like it had nice driftwood covered in epiphytes, but actually it was cobbled together from a cheap material. I'm sure it could be done, but I bet it would take a lot of skill to disguise the driftwood substitute. It's not like everyone could achieve that look easily and they are just too stupid or lazy to do so.

We all have different ideas and values about what makes a good tank, so we don't all make the same choices. As such a wise person with years of experience I would hope that you understand that trends come and go, in aquascaping and in all things. Sometimes a trend is an affront to our personal taste, but that's just how it goes. It's not like other people are using your money to buy that driftwood. (Or is that the problem? If other people are using your money to buy and then ruin driftwood with place, please contact law enforcement.) 

Believe me, I love being snarky about stuff, but 1) I know my opinion is subjective, 2) I sincerely wish that people with super weird and ugly tanks love those tanks, because they have to live with them and not me, and 3) nothing is more exciting to me than when someone comes out of left field and shows me that the thing I was hating on can actually be good. Maybe that thing is still awful 99% of the time, but when someone shows me the exception that I couldn't even imagine it's very powerful. But you have to keep an open mind, or you might miss it.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Well,I noticed that my own tank? The driftwood I had bought long ago,then reused? You can't see it under the Bolbitis,Anubias and Microsorum..that's the truth. In fact,I was thinking how you could glue lava rock or tufa rocks to pvc and after a few months,plants AND algae would make it invisible..and branches would be exactly as planned or wanted. I have some driftwood in that tank that nothing is on and you can admire the shape and grain it has.
One last observation..epiphytes underwater roots much better onto porous rocks than wood. My Bolbitis grew slowly over wood..then faster on Tufa rock I get from the local rockery for a few bucks.
I can post photos later if wanted?


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## gjcarew (Dec 26, 2018)

Weird argument. A nice curvy piece of driftwood has a unique structure that can't easily be replicated with rocks or PVC or whatever. Wood is also great for attaching epiphytes too, "epiphytes don't grow well on wood" is an argument I've never encountered before... 

Do you have a specific tank you're talking about? 



Stan510 said:


> One day,you will age enough to get that I was right and how its kind of crazy to order Spiderwood at a hefty price..then cover it in moss and Anubias to the point you cant even tell what they are attached to.


Maybe it has less to do with age and more to do with having enough money to spend on things that make you happy. Also, trimming moss is not that hard. You can check out my journal for aquascapes where I've used moss on driftwood, trimming it takes maybe 5 minutes every other week?

I don't know why you'd come on a website dedicated to planted tanks and aquascaping, proceed to criticize aquascaping, and then be surprised that you aren't getting a warm reaction.


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

@Stan510, so your real problem is that when you tried this technique and put epiphytes in driftwood you didn't like how it looked and thought the wood was better before? I mean, I hear you - shoot, wish I had better aquascaping skills myself. But it does make me a little skeptical that your stone on pvc technique is going to actually look like driftwood... 

Prove me wrong though - like I said, I don't mind eating my own hat, but it needs to give a real illusion.


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## AVN (Oct 3, 2012)

I respect that you're entitled to your opinion. However I don't agree with it. There's a distinction between "expression of opinion" and "forcing your opinion" that I think you have crossed. Everyone is allowed to do whatever they please with their property and lives. If you don't like it, that's your personal problem. To label a behavior as incorrect based on your own subjective beliefs is nothing short of insular thinking.

You seem to also reject any opposing viewpoints. Isn't the point of a discussion to share your belief and information and then refining that with the opinions and information of your peers? Isn't the context of YOUR entire discussion an opinion on aesthetics?

I agree with both sides. I'm of the opinion that hardscape should be displayed, utilizing both hard and plantscapes in harmony for your scape to really shine.

A bare log is not aesthetic, and a covered log is not either. That's simply my preference. Is it right or wrong?

Neither. It is my perference and choice.

I'd like to know how you came to your opinion as well! In nature, anubias and ferns propagate young plants that drift off, snag on wood and rocks, and then anchor their rhizomes.

Epiphytes are characterized by the fact that they grow and anchor on other surfaces, including plants. Plants like elodea, anubua, ferns, bolbitis, mosses, algae, etc occupy a biological niche in which they drift and colonize new areas. These plants are known to attach to other plants and surfaces as their primary method of growth. In nature you do not find them firmly rooted in the substrate, you find them on logs, rocks, and other plants.

If a plant finds a niche to colonize, it will fill it up before moving on. You-who studied horticulture-should know this. If it finds a nice looking piece of wood and destroys the aesthetic sense, it really doesn't care.

You shouldn't either!


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

I couldn't agree more. Look at this terrible aquascape...









And this one. Ewwwwww









this one made me vomit a bit









I can't believe this one was even planted


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I would say those are the kind of photos that are misleading to people wanting that. In no way are those really long term tanks..the amount of trimming,the very few fish to be seen..Those are creations to be recorded for show..then later,torn down for a new creation.
Most aquatic epiphytes or are found on rock. Wood is too ephemeral..live roots are outnumbered by rocks a jillion to one. Look at the vids..Buce-Microsorums are usually on rocks above and below water. Its a nice imitation of land epiphytes on trees in the forest..but not as accurate really. Later I can post my 240. Its low tech..but high effort on my part to look good.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Now wait a second... you started by saying that covering driftwood in moss and epiphytes was unnatural and ugly "why would you cover an expensive piece of wood with moss", and now, it's too much work to maintain, and they're not a real tank. Well, which is it? Are they ugly to look at, or are they a lot of work?

As far as the lack of fish, you'll find a great majority of the people on this site are more concerned with the plants than the fish. The fish are only there to accent the aquascape. Hence the name of the site, plantedtank. With that said, many people on here have beautiful fish in their tanks. Personally, I keep Boesemani Rainbowfish, Turquoise Rainbowfish, and Denison Barbs. @Greggz has one of the most beautiful rainbowfish tanks I've seen anywhere, and his tank is nearly 100% planted (also an amazing Dutch tank). They aren't mutually exclusive.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Firs of all..I never said it was ugly..somebody in the thread made that up. A bad defense for that guy when he went there. Why would I say covering it was ugly,when I said why cover a great piece of wood with plants? Simple premise thats




























true.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

That's my 240..with Syngonium roots helping to filter out bad stuff. Under the Bolbitis and Anubias..some nice looking ironwood-lol. 
Like I said..why buy expensive wood if you are going to cover? Go to the creek for that and get a few waterlogged branches..or where I am,the SF bay has lots of driftwood.
See? I like plants..even in my low tech.


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## Griznatch (Nov 9, 2020)

As cliche as it sounds, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If you really want to use a piece of driftwood as the main attraction, or showcase it, then by all means leave it bare. Some scapers are trying to achieve a "look" or reproduce a biotope. Some have the wood in there for the sake of the fauna. To me, those show scapes have a purpose. To create art and to inspire others. In the end do what makes you happy...


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I also have large Denison Barbs,a few young but 3" CLown Loaches. A beauty 5" Queen Botia. A pair of Panda Garra ..One large Yellow Ancistrus and one younger Red. Just fishes that get along..no stress from Aggressive fish..no Red tail Sharks or Tiger Barbs..But I do have fine Snakeskin Barbs. Peaceful as can be.
My point was never ALL WOOD.it was just for those cases where somebody covered totally in before and after a GREAT looking wood..and to my eye,a waste. Nothing to start shootin over!😀


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

My hort side..with Orchid that grows outdoors here near SF bay area..but brought in to enjoy the flowers and scent.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Stan510 said:


> That's my 240..with Syngonium roots helping to filter out bad stuff. Under the Bolbitis and Anubias..some nice looking ironwood-lol.


I'm speechless.

If I am reading this right your argument is that this is better than beautifully presented pieces of driftwood with healthy plants meticulously placed to create an artistic presentation.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I'm speechless,that in trying to prove me wrong some guy posted photos of UNCOVERED driftwood/roots and that makes my point!
You also need to read close.. "better"..what??? I said why spend big bucks for wood..that is just going to be engulfed in green?
This is where to sound like you are right..you twist my point to fit. I am right..sticking to my point. Read it 50 times and then it will come to you.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Lets see greegy your masterpiece and fish.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Ohhhh boy, get ready to feel silly lol


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Stan510 said:


> Lets see greegy your masterpiece and fish.


Here's from a couple of days ago.

Good luck to you. I am predicting it will be short lived membership here.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Its nice. I mean you use Co2, I don't. Its a small tank overall. Also,I bet that tank must be a bear to keep some plants small..constant pruning. Not that its bad ..part of that hobby. But I get plenty of exercise pruning Star grass and Java moss as it is. How many times have you re arranged? removed?..I mean those kind of tanks are not long term as fast growers want a monoculture and many stem plants really can't take pruning over and over..they tend to die out. Some of the best last longer. Also,Where's the wood?..the whole point of the post was..why pay big bucks for something you blot out?
I've grown more plants in my time.. I KNOW the score.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Stan510 said:


> Its nice. I mean you use Co2, I don't. Its a small tank overall. Also,I bet that tank must be a bear to keep some plants small..constant pruning. Not that its bad ..part of that hobby. But I get plenty of exercise pruning Star grass and Java moss as it is. How many times have you re arranged? removed?..I mean those kind of tanks are not long term as fast growers want a monoculture and many stem plants really can't take pruning over and over..they tend to die out. Some of the best last longer. Also,Where's the wood?..the whole point of the post was..why pay big bucks for something you blot out?
> I've grown more plants in my time.. I KNOW the score.


It's a 5' long 120G tank. The plants are not kept small, some are 2 feet tall.

The tanks been running like this for about 6 years. Tanks like this can be long term. If you know even a little bit of what you are doing they do not burn out. I don't even know what that means or what you are referring to?

Contrary to what you claim, you can trim the same group of stems for years. This does not in any way make them die out. You see the Ludwigia Inclinata Verticillata Pantanal and Rotala Macranda Variegated on the left hand side? Those groupings have been the same plants for 5 years.

And earlier you said you wanted to see the fish too. Here you go.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Nice tank and fish @Greggz, but I didn't realize you use co2. Don't you know that's cheating?


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> Nice tank and fish @Greggz, but I didn't realize you use co2. Don't you know that's cheating?


LOL good one. I was still laughing at the "It's a small tank" and "pruning makes plants die out" comments!! 😀

I guess I should add this for a sense of scale.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> Nice tank and fish @Greggz, but I didn't realize you use co2. Don't you know that's cheating?


Hahahaha!! 

Yeah, REAL planted tank enthusiasts find a way to grow plants like you with a desk lamp, and they don't even like getting their hands wet!


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## Jonathankeary (Dec 29, 2020)

Why


Greggz said:


> Here's from a couple of days ago.
> 
> Good luck to you. I am predicting it will be short lived membership here.
> 
> View attachment 1026565


wow....seeing this makes me realize how far I have to go. I look at my newly scaped nano tanks and then I realize how long it takes to get that level of beauty.
The most beautiful planted tanks I have seen are the ones that are well established. They have an “it factor” that I believe is a combination of the plants developing maturity plus the admiration of the dedication it takes to maintain the tank for that period of time.
‘Props to Greggz...


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Stan510 said:


> I mean those kind of tanks are not long term as fast growers want a monoculture and many stem plants really can't take pruning over and over..they tend to die out.


 Why don't you check out his journal? All 5 years and over 3800 posts. Try to count how many times he's had to completely start over because the plants "died out".




Stan510 said:


> I've grown more plants in my time.. I KNOW the score.


Well, your tank certainly doesn't look like a horticulturist's tank, that's for sure. Growing terrestrial plants and growing aquatic plants are two completely different things. I'm a relative newcomer to this hobby, and am excited to learn as much as I can. You would be wise to drop the ego and learn from people who have more botanical skill than most of us could learn in 5 lifetimes.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Jonathankeary said:


> Why
> 
> 
> wow....seeing this makes me realize how far I have to go. I look at my newly scaped nano tanks and then I realize how long it takes to get that level of beauty.
> ...


Thanks for the kind words, it's much appreciated.

And yes a tank does take time to become "established" and mature. Once it does, everything else is easier.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Oh yeah ,I've seen the vids. What does any of that have to do with buying a piece of driftwood at great expense and then covering the grain,and color of the wood with plants? Like I said,you could use any branch from a local pond for that. So far..all the photos made my point...did you know my Bolbitis has eaten a great piece of ironwood?..lol. Hell,I might as well have used a hunk of old broken concrete!..would look the same.
I've repeated that and you don't seem to get it. I will not get into insults. After 50 years and professionals met and learned from over the years.. Eh,if you want to pay $75 for a hunk of artistic wood...then cover it in Anubias. Fine.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Nice photos. Where's the wood?
See?...
Case closed.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

This is the hardscape of my tank. You could see the bare spiderwood.










And here it is with epiphytes fully grown. Somehow I think it looks better with the plants.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Stan510 said:


> Oh yeah ,I've seen the vids. What does any of that have to do with buying a piece of driftwood at great expense and then covering the grain,and color of the wood with plants?


I posted the pics and video because you requested it.

If I am not mistaken, I seem to remember you saying "Lets see greegy your masterpiece and fish" just a page back.

So I obliged you. 

Since you critiqued my tank a bit, I guess I could do the same for yours. Out of kindness I will refrain.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

It looks fine. Just that once the plants grew in,you could have used branches from any plant.My point.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Asteroid said:


> This is the hardscape of my tank. You could see the bare spiderwood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The perfect example! Well done.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I critiqued that you missed the point greggyz. You showed us no wood ( eh,didnt sound right) and that's the whole point. Why you and others took it into hating aquascapes is something I can't diagnose with group think.
Like I said 20 times. Once the wood is covered..the specialness of the WOOD is moot. You don't see the color of the wood well and what you do see right now,it's going to disappear soon. No knock on the looks of the whole tank. Just that apple tree branches tied could have been used. ON the other hand..if you put that wood in a cichlid tank..it looks great!


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Stan510 said:


> I critiqued that you missed the point greggyz.


No actually in between the ranting about the wood you made a bunch of statements about growing plants in general that are pretty much complete nonsense. Things I would expect to hear from a beginner who has done a lot of reading but not much doing.

Once again, good luck to you. I am tapping out of this conversation. Enjoy all the new found friends you are making around here.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Using driftwood in aquascaping cannot be permanent, as wood decays in water and will disfigure over time and need to be replaced. It’s a lot of work if one needs to unplug every moss and epiphyte that colonized the wood and restart all over.

This is why I don’t use wood and prefer attaching epiphytes to rock which is permanent and never need replacement. I prefer larva and lace rock because they have rough and porous surfaces for firm rooting of epiphytes, and their light weight makes it safe to pile up in hill and valley. I don’t use big rock but prefer smaller ones I can take out to glue plants.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Everything I said..is in the title Greg. Cant be more clear.
Tiger. Exactly. Wood decays,Ancistrus will eat it also..why I noticed aquarium epiphytes really thrive best on porous rocks. Like in nature.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Yeah, attaching plants to wood that's a big problem. The plants really don't like that as much as being attached to rocks. Wondering when the wood will rot away keeps me up at night.  Thanks for the helpful tips!


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Glad to help you. I'm always here for you man.


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## Ryan Mosby (Jan 19, 2017)

@Stan510 I can understand having an opinion but it feels like you just shamed a bunch of aquascapers and then insulted some longstanding and helpful members of the community. This isn't a pissing contest, but if it was, it's safe to say that you'd likely lose given the amount of dedicated aquascapers on this site. Let's build people up, not break them down. Can we just agree to disagree, that people have their own preferences? Once my driftwood sinks, I'm going to glue (because I hate tying down) some petite golden anubias nana and nobody can stop me, _mwahaha! _I might even attach some _moss._

@jellopuddinpop's examples blew me out of the water! There's art and then there's _art! I'd kill for a jungle aquarium scape._

@Greggz All hail the Dutch scape master! Seriously, it's breathtaking!

@Asteroid Wow, they look like tropical islands, that's beautiful!


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## Kubla (Jan 5, 2014)

Stan510 said:


> It looks fine.


 Understatement of the year!

I think the red color of manzanita is beautiful, of course you shouldn't use it with the bark on. I think the color of spider wood is not beautiful. I choose driftwood for shape.

On a side note, I think you should show at least a minimal amount of respect for fellow members by trying to get their usernames right. The names are all there on the side of the page and you can use the copy function if needed.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Driftwood makes good aquascaping architecture, but rarely do master aquascapers completely covered up the wood with epiphytes. Takashi Amano advised against completely covering up and always leaving some bare wood and rock surfaces in his forest and iwagami setups as shown in his last piece of work in Sumida Aquarium in Toykio.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Kubla said:


> On a side note, I think you should show at least a minimal amount of respect for fellow members by trying to get their usernames right. The names are all there on the side of the page and you can use the copy function if needed.


You're being far more forgiving than OP deserves. There's no way that was an accident, not once, but twice. Condescension should never be excused, especially amongst internet strangers. Most people were civil with him until he started being rude to one of the nicest, most helpful members we have.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

You got it all backwards my friend. Read the title. Where did it say I hate aquascapers? Then when experts tried to prove my expertise was wrong...the photos were of great driftwood,bare and nice spiderwood..covered by plants to the point it could have been any kind of wood.
I joined planted tank because I like planted tanks.
Its the internet,I run into people on boards who not only can't stand another opinion..they often go for ad hominem attacks making arguments about things I never said. Its pretty common really. I know on sports boards guys will say "I been here since 1994 and made 20,000 posts..so I'm right!
True.
Sure Amano had wood everywhere in his Lisbon masterpiece..but by 2 or 3 years later..it was enveloped. Maybe a spike of wood juts up. Also..we have no idea what troubles that tank might be having with breaking up of the wood as it disintegrates. That's another post!


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Look at my tank.. I have nice piece of twisty root- bare. And all my other pieces that looked great..are invisible. I've been at this near 50 years...from 100,000 gallon public Koi and native fish with Sturgeon ponds to almost being a Penguin keeper to start at Steinhart Aquarium in San Francisco.
I don't know everything and never will..but I know much.


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## Scully (Nov 20, 2020)

I'm just waiting for Stan to ask us to answer a riddle so that we can cross a bridge, because this has been a great 4 page troll.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

No, I think you're missing OUR point. An aquascape is designed to make someone happy. If they want a few pieces of expensive wood because the size and shape fits the design that they like, then it's absolutely nobody's business why they chose that. It's not just "wood". Each species has different shapes, different sizes, different compositions. There's wood that is more trunk like, wood that is more like roots, wood that is more like stumps. I promise, you can't take 2x4's and make it look like a successful driftwood scape.

As far as "wasting" money, I'll spend my money on whatever I damned well please. If I want to import some insane piece of extinct driftwood because it's the exact shape that I want, and it costs me $100k, then I'm going to do that. People have tried to explain this to you in this thread, but you don't care enough to listen. My aquascape is MY aquascape, and I'm going to build it to look the way I want. 

You continue to dig your heels in, and you're failing to hear what people are saying. People cover their hardscape with plants and mosses because they want to, and it doesn't need any more explanation than that.

I'm going to take the same approach that Greggz did, and step out of the conversation. I wish you well with your tank. If I were you, I would hope it all goes well. I'm sure you won't be receiving very much help from any of us.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

jellopuddinpop said:


> I'm going to take the same approach that Greggz did, and step out of the conversation. I wish you well with your tank. If I were you, I would hope it all goes well. I'm sure you won't be receiving very much help from any of us.


LOL yes and by the looks of his tank he NEEDS help!

Sorry, couldn't resist!


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

No,my tank is fine. Just large. No riddle. The title says it all. If you need to make arguments about things I never said..that's on you. 
Greg posted an all plant tank..what does that have to do with the subject? One person posted who was spot on the topic..the rest went pack mentality looks like. Eh.


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## Scully (Nov 20, 2020)

I wasn't actually going to make a semi-serious reply to this obvious troll, but I can't help myself anymore.



Stan510 said:


> The title says it all. If you need to make arguments about things I never said..that's on you.


Your title is a question, your question got answered, you didn't like the answers, you argued an opinion as the one and only answer to said question. If you want to prove your point about making a cinderblock look like a piece of driftwood, please do so, because I love a good DIY write-up on how to save money. Until then, you're not exactly making yourself look like Einstein.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Look in a mirror. No wonder Datsun failed. Scotty hates Nissans...lol..
I've never trolled. So what does that leave?
One of you got it..read his post. Tell him he's wrong brave ones.


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

Well,SOME OF you guys would let ivy cover "The Thinker"..and be proud of the look. Trying my best to open your eyes.
oK to be even clearer..you would cover it with some great orchids and exotic ferns...but you could have used any cement statue in the shape of a human. Geddit?


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## Jonathankeary (Dec 29, 2020)

Stan510 said:


> Well,SOME OF you guys would let ivy cover "The Thinker"..and be proud of the look. Trying my best to open your eyes.
> oK to be even clearer..you would cover it with some great orchids and exotic ferns...but you could have used any cement statue in the shape of a human. Geddit?


Even if ivy covered the thinker it would still be art.


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Administrator should close this thread!


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## Scully (Nov 20, 2020)

Stan510 said:


> Scotty hates Nissans...lol..


Scotty Kilmer? I love him, but he's huffed too much brake cleaner.

But you know you're right. I'll add that people shouldn't be able to paint their house any color other than grey, because I don't like any other color


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## mourip (Mar 15, 2020)

Folks. Do not feed the troll...


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## Stan510 (Feb 15, 2021)

I've been trolled. Stood my ground. Its like arguing with flat earthers... we agree to disagree. Next topic.
Please- no more version of saying the same insult over and over. My tank is nice..you all know it. Its a fish tank with plants as I always tell it. Not a scapers tank.
So onward and forward. One plant person to another.


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## NoodleAquatics (Mar 2, 2020)

Wow. The ego here is more impressive than the tanks, and several of these examples were fantastic.

That said, oops. Lost my driftwood.










Honestly there's nothing wrong with your opinion in itself, it's more how you are putting it out here by basically talking down to people. Saying that we need to grow up to see you're right? Dude that's just condescending lol there is no right or wrong opinion on art.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Pretty sure everyone can figure out who no longer gets to post in this thread.

If they start trolling in other threads, please report it so they can be removed from the forum.

EDIT - Making an update to make something extra-clear: *Treat others with respect.* 

If you want to get big mad because a member of the moderation team asks you to treat others with respect, we'll kindly show you the door. You just need to let us know. There's zero excuse for being awful to others on a plant forum. Especially during a global pandemic that's killing people in droves, causing suffering, leaving everyone broke or broken.


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## Salty_pianist7 (Mar 1, 2021)

Stan510 said:


> My point is..why pick a great looking piece of wood at some expense from the aqua store meant for the dead center of your aquarium,and then make it an amorphous blob of green? They might as well have just used a big hunk of trunk that you can pick out of any river nearby. Yet,they cover Spiderwood,or Manzanita...why?
> Its like buying a Ferrari..and then drive it with the car cover still on it..lol..with only cutouts for the windows!


Using wood from a random river could be harmful and change water perimeters in the tank. This treated expensive root wood you buy in a fish store mainly only gives off tannins which isn't harmful to fish or plants, or I believe can lower water hardness over time. I personally would like to buy a piece of root wood and put plants on it because it gives off an alive forest vibe. Without plants, to me it kinda just looks like a dead hunk of wood. Though some tanks that have Plants surrounding the wood, and maybe one plant on top growing up the base can look really good too. I think plants that love anchoring to wood can give it a sense of purpose and enhance the "aliveness" of the tank. When you see wood in a forest it most likely has plants growing off of it even if it is dead. Since the wood is also light weight it is great to use instead of large rocks that can be really heavy, and potentially break the bottom glass of the aquarium, especially if a rock falls. Certain types of rocks even bought in a fish store can change water perimeters as well which is not ideal.


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## Mr.Shenanagins (May 2, 2017)

This is the same guy on Barrreport who said the only nutrient you need to add to your tank was iron. Shocked that never came up in this petty and ridiculous thread. Ignore the trolls folks.


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## MissCris (Mar 7, 2016)

Wow. I ignore this section of the forum for a couple days and miss a forest fire!

The funny thing is I actually sorta agree that it makes sense to go less expensive if you plan to totally cover wood up (in my case, I'd probably go up to the lake and collect some manzanita, then attach pieces into a custom shape if I wanted to cover the majority of it in epiphytes or moss), but still...

It's their tank, and if they like it, then that's their prerogative.

I have noticed though that a lot of the videos I've seen posted by competition aquascapers show them attaching multiple pieces of more simply shaped wood together using some combination of screws, zip-ties and/or glue to make the structure they want, so it is very likely they aren't often spending $500 on a truly special piece of wood. They are _making_ the wood special. Covering it entirely in a combination of moss and plants hides the joints and softens the shape, which makes it look natural. That's the artistry of making something unnatural look like nature.

To the point of attaching plants more easily to rock: I think it would actually be incredibly cool for someone to use a lightweight stone and an appropriate adhesive to build fantastic, otherworldly shapes that could be totally smothered in plants and mosses. Make twisting and intertwining bridges and pathways like a living 3-D Escher drawing complete with epiphytes growing upside down. Add an army of skittles cherry shrimp who would walk all over ignoring the notion of gravity. Not sure it would win a contest, but I'd totally keep something neat like that in my livingroom (mentioned this notion to my 16yo and thought it would be pretty cool too).


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Driftwood can provide interesting architect that no rock can replicate, and is nearly ubiquitous in competitive aquascaping. But I choose not to use wood because it is not permanent as it will slowly rot away. It's a huge investment to groom a master piece of wood with epiphytes only to undo it a few years later. I was considering using fake drift wood, but I am afraid that epiphyte will not root on resin surfaces. Has anyone tried?


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## ElleDee (May 16, 2020)

MissCris said:


> Wow. I ignore this section of the forum for a couple days and miss a forest fire!
> 
> The funny thing is I actually sorta agree that it makes sense to go less expensive if you plan to totally cover wood up (in my case, I'd probably go up to the lake and collect some manzanita, then attach pieces into a custom shape if I wanted to cover the majority of it in epiphytes or moss), but still...
> 
> ...


Oh yeah, losing the effect of your driftwood in too many plants is a legitimate design concern! There are many ways to address it though and the best scapers do strike a balance between wood and plants, and they aren't scared of maintenance to get the picture they are after. The OP's concern about competition tanks not being made to last is also basically true, but I think it's silly to expect the competition tanks to function that way. There are very beautiful long term tanks of course, but the competitions are kind of their own thing.

I have heard that aquascaping is way more expensive in the US than other parts of the world too, so concerns about wasting money might not be relevant. That said, I imagine this hobby is much different if you're a wealthy person! I make a lot of choices based partially on budget and I assume that's true for most of us.


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## Nanomike (Feb 10, 2021)

Clearly he doesn't understand the beauty of aquascaping. 

Sent from my SM-G998W using Tapatalk


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

Tiger15 said:


> Driftwood can provide interesting architect that no rock can replicate, and is nearly ubiquitous in competitive aquascaping. But I choose not to use wood because it is not permanent as it will slowly rot away. It's a huge investment to groom a master piece of wood with epiphytes only to undo it a few years later. I was considering using fake drift wood, but I am afraid that epiphyte will not root on resin surfaces. Has anyone tried?


I've been using the same piece of driftwood for twelve years. Should I toss it? That's sad. It's hollow and provided a good refuge for our departed Zebra Loach. That loach took out all the snails in the tank. It was an incredibly effective snail hunter. I think I'll get a cinder block and cover that with epiphytes. No wait. I want to exhibit the natural beauty of my cinder block.


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Hahahahahahaha


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I've been eyeing a piece of pressure treated wood that broke off my backyard fence. Every time I pass it I keep thinking it could fit right into my nature scape. And the kicker is pressure treated wood can last 15 years! Does anyone know if pressure treated wood is safe to use in home aquaria?


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## jellopuddinpop (Dec 12, 2016)

Asteroid said:


> I've been eyeing a piece of pressure treated wood that broke off my backyard fence. Every time I pass it I keep thinking it could fit right into my nature scape. And the kicker is pressure treated wood can last 15 years! Does anyone know if pressure treated wood is safe to use in home aquaria?


Maybe if you polyurethane it first. I'm not sure why you would use pressure treated wood though, it seems like a waste of money when you're going to cover it with plants. Have you thought about using a couple of bricks or copper pipe remnants?


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## Tiger15 (Jan 7, 2018)

Savetheplants said:


> I've been using the same piece of driftwood for twelve years. Should I toss it? That's sad. It's hollow and provided a good refuge for our departed Zebra Loach. That loach took out all the snails in the tank. It was an incredibly effective snail hunter. I think I'll get a cinder block and cover that with epiphytes. No wait. I want to exhibit the natural beauty of my cinder block.


You must have some durable wood and I’m curious what it is made of.

Most durable wood for making furniture are cedar, which contain aromatic hydrocarbons that are insect and fungus repellant and can be toxic to fish.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

jellopuddinpop said:


> Maybe if you polyurethane it first. I'm not sure why you would use pressure treated wood though, it seems like a waste of money when you're going to cover it with plants. Have you thought about using a couple of bricks or copper pipe remnants?


LOL, the possibilities are endless.


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## Savetheplants (May 24, 2016)

Tiger15 said:


> You must have some durable wood and I’m curious what it is made of.


It is red colored and hollow with a stem and a knot with a hole in it. The Zebra Loach used to peek out of the hole. I have other smaller solid pieces of the same wood, with (gulp), epiphytes attached to them. Now I'm thinking the center piece is probably completely decayed. It would probably break or even crumble if I squeezed it hard enough. It's really sad. A lot of animals have lived in this scape. Oh well, time for a rescape and maybe a whole new setup. Such a daunting prospect.


Stan510 said:


> Look at Amano's Lisbon tank...other than a bit- and very small bit- that Ironwood he used is invisible...He could have used 2x4's and a year later it would look the same..wink.





jellopuddinpop said:


> I promise, you can't take 2x4's and make it look like a successful driftwood scape.


I think 2x4's lend a certain urban aesthetic to an aquarium.


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## MissCris (Mar 7, 2016)

I really love that what started as an angry troll thread has become a fun and silly troll thread. Happy aquascapers for the win.


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