# Death of algae eaters



## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

Having a big problem trying to keep various algae eaters alive for more than 2 weeks. Before relocating 2 years ago, we had a bristlenose pleco, 6 amano shrimp, and 6 oto's in the 70 gallon planted tank. We kept those for at least 3 years before taking the tank down to move. Now I have not been able to keep (3) SAE's (probably false), (4)chinese algae eaters, (4) oto's, or (2) bulldog plecos alive for any length of time. The Sae's lasted longer, about one month, but the oto's, plecos and CAE's lasted about one week. The tank is moderately planted, fluorite red substrate, driftwood, etc. Tankmates are 10 congo tetras, 8 serpae tetras and 5 zebra danios and some snails for sure. 

The only difference in the water parameters at this location versus the last location is the pH is very low here. The tank has a pH of about 6.0 and the kH is about 1 degree and the gH is about 4 degrees. All much lower here tahn at our previous location. But the spec sheets for the animals in question say that they can take these paramenters. Water temp is 79F, ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0, nitrate = 10-15.

Two of the CAE's are still alive but one does not look good and I have moved it in to my hospital tank for isolation. The CAE's that died looked like they were trying to burrow in to the dwarf hair grass and both were found dead with only their tailfin slightly sticking out of the hair grass. We also chased the current sick one out of the grass this morning and trimmed the grass back to 1/2 inch but seems to have little effect.

Any ideas, suggestins, etc.???

Thanks

Howard


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## NeonFlux (Apr 10, 2008)

Sorry for your loss, Howard. Did you acclimated them properly, slowly? Sorry to hear about this happening


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## Sixwing (Jan 30, 2009)

Huh. None of the other fish are looking sick?
I wonder, with how soft your water is, if you might be having pH swings, esp. if you inject CO2, but I'd think that would make everyone sick.


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## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

Sixwing said:


> Huh. None of the other fish are looking sick?
> I wonder, with how soft your water is, if you might be having pH swings, esp. if you inject CO2, but I'd think that would make everyone sick.


None of the 8 serpae tetras, 5 long-finned zebra danios or the 10 congo tetras show any signs of poor health. All appear active and are swimming normally, not jerky, up and down, etc. Aeration is good, no fish at the top.

There is one diy CO2 and it has been in operation for about one year. I test the water weekly in all 3 tanks, more frequently if I suspect a problem and the pH is just about always at the 6.0 level. Public water supply tests at 7.0 - 7.2. Right after a 30 G water change it elevates to about 6.4 and then decreases to 6.0 in a few days.

Thanks for suggesting the pH. I will go and look closer at the animal requirements on additional websites.

Regards,

Howard


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## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

NeonFlux said:


> Sorry for your loss, Howard. Did you acclimated them properly, slowly? Sorry to hear about this happening


All that died were acclimated the same manner as those that are living. The container holding the new animals is opened briefly to allow new air, then the bag is floated in the tank until my IR temp gauge indictes that the temperature in and out of the bag are the same. Usually this in about 15 minutes or less. Then 4 fifteen minute intervals of adding tank water to the new animal container still floating in the tank, then release.

Do the algae eater type animals that are not surviving require something different than the other animals for acclimation?

Thanks for your interest and suggestion.

Howard


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Sixwing said:


> Huh. None of the other fish are looking sick?
> I wonder, with how soft your water is, if you might be having pH swings, esp. if you inject CO2, but I'd think that would make everyone sick.


Ph swings due to CO2 injection (as long as you are not injecting too much CO2) has little visible affect on fish. Many people who have CO2 off at night report up to a full point swing every day with no problems. My tank goes from 6.6 to 7.1 daily-my 4 ottos are several months old and are very healthy. Although I lost 2 "false AE" shortly after introducing them the 3rd is growing well. Do you use water that comes from a household softening system?


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## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

MarkMc said:


> Ph swings due to CO2 injection (as long as you are not injecting too much CO2) has little visible affect on fish. Many people who have CO2 off at night report up to a full point swing every day with no problems. My tank goes from 6.6 to 7.1 daily-my 4 ottos are several months old and are very healthy. Although I lost 2 "false AE" shortly after introducing them the 3rd is growing well. Do you use water that comes from a household softening system?


The water supply is county wide and no softener or any other treatment is done in our house. Nor is the water used in the tank run through a water filter of any sort.

Thanks for the input.

Howard


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Hey, forgot to ask, what do you supplement their diet with? Is there algae for them to eat. I always leave a side of the aquarium un-scraped for the ottos.


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## kyle3 (May 26, 2005)

I have had 2 occasions that seem similar to yours. once a few years ago i had a bulldog pleco who i had for about 2 months- one night a couple hours after a water change he started darting around and then burrowed into a plant in the tank and he died there- it was very strange and i didn't know what to think- all other fish and shrimp were fine.

second was about nine months ago i had an oto that had been in the tank about 5 days exhibit the same behavior he burrowed into some java moss and never came out.

It's especially strange because, like you, all other fish were in perfect health. I have never come across any explanation for this kind of fish death. 

by the way my tank is and was at a 7.2 ph, 4KH, 9GH, amonia-0, nitrite-0, nitrate-10 at the time the oto died - the bulldog was in a tank that had slightly higher ph and a i think 12GH and the other numbers were the same.

I'm curious to see if anyone has an explanation

hope my experience helps you rule out some potential causes

cheers-K

edit: both fish had full bellies and had been observed eating well before the incidents


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## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

MarkMc said:


> Hey, forgot to ask, what do you supplement their diet with? Is there algae for them to eat. I always leave a side of the aquarium un-scraped for the ottos.


There is plenty of algae to eat. I do not scrape the back side of the tank when cleaning so there is always something worthwhile there. When the false SAE's started to grow pretty quickly, I supplemented with an algae tab or a sinking food pellet at night. One or more of the animals ate them as they were gone each morning. 

Thanks again, Mark.

Howard


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## kyle3 (May 26, 2005)

Ok I've just spent quite a while searching the internet for info on this and i have been able to find a lot of examples of people experiencing this with their fish. But none of those examples were accompanied by an explanation.

the plot thickens- I'm going to try more word variation in my searches and see if i can come up with anything

cheers-K


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## kyle3 (May 26, 2005)

still nothing jeez! I still can't find any info on this


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## Fishytales12345 (Apr 12, 2008)

Also noted that there are no snails in the tank and there were quite a few.

I got an answer from the curator at the local aquarium who suggests that I likely have a toxic blue/green algae amongst the other algaes in the tank and that is why only the algae eaters are dying. The other fish are all normal. So the immediate action was to stop the pumps, scrape, exfoliate the plants, heavy gravel vacuum and about a 70% water change. All ferts have been stopped until plant deficientcies are noted. 

Still not quite sure about the lighting, whether I should by doing the normal 225 watts or the minimal 25 watts (or none). 

Also not sure if I should continue CO2 or stop for the time being.

Thanks to all that helped and if anyone has a suggestion about the CO2 or the lighting, please comment.

Howard


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Fishytales12345 said:


> Also noted that there are no snails in the tank and there were quite a few.
> 
> I got an answer from the curator at the local aquarium who suggests that I likely have a toxic blue/green algae amongst the other algaes in the tank and that is why only the algae eaters are dying. The other fish are all normal. So the immediate action was to stop the pumps, scrape, exfoliate the plants, heavy gravel vacuum and about a 70% water change. All ferts have been stopped until plant deficientcies are noted.
> 
> ...


Howard, I must say that it seems unlikely that algae eaters would eat blue green algae (it's cynobacteria not even algae). If you have any kind of a BGA problem stopping ferts and CO2 while continuing to run over 200 watts will cause an algae and/or blue green algae explosion! I'm currently winning a battle with BGA by increasing my nitrate dosing. I more than doubled nitrate dosing and I'm running as much CO2 as my reactor can handle.BTW if you have 225 watts running over your tank you should get CO2 tank and reactor set up-a yeast system probably won't keep pace with that much light.


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## nixstyx (Mar 2, 2009)

I wish I had found this sooner so I could weigh-in. I'm new to planted tanks, but not to fish keeping in general. I had a similar problem about two years ago. All my ottos just started disapearing. I thought something was eating them, until I found a couple dead and half buried in the gravel. 
I determined my problem was definitly blue-green algae, and I suspect the same is true for you. I don't know if the ottos actually eat the BGA or are just more sensitive to the toxins, but I'm sure this was the cause of my problem and as soon as I got rid of the BGA, new ottos thrived... until the damn stuff came back again 6 months later.
That tank was not planted so I don't know if the same treatment would work for you, and as I mentioned I am new to planted tanks. But my solution was to use erythromycin over a period of 2 weeks (I believe I was following directions I found online that specified 200mg erythro/ 10 gallons) to kill off the BGA along with frequent, large water changes. I've been BGA free in that tank, which is now planted, for a year and a half.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Well.... I think we would need to compare apples to apples to come to any conclusions like that. IOW does he in fact HAVE a blue/green algae problem? That idea came from the curator of the aquarium. AND how much of an infestation did you have? Because I have/had a BGA problem and my ottos aren't dead-they are thriving. So, to empirically state that BGA kills ottos would have to be quantified. My tank-at the level of BGA that I had-disproves your theory. Perhaps there were other factors in your case eg: dying BGA giving off toxins? A massive infestation?


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## nixstyx (Mar 2, 2009)

Well, to be clear I never said for sure that BGA is his problem, I only pointed out that his situation sounds very similar to mine. I don't know what was different between my situation and yours, but I did have quite a bit of BGA, so if you don't have as much that could be a difference. But, I do know that each time the BGA started to show up my ottos died (every other tank param was normal) and as soon as the BGA was eliminated new ottos were healty. I don't know that I'd say that I had a "massive infestation" but it was certainly a problem. I will admit that it does seem odd that he wouldn't obviously see the BGA. Anyway, that's my two cents. I've been proven wrong before and I wouldn't claim to be an expert, just sharing a similar experience.


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## MarkMc (Apr 27, 2007)

Oh, please don't get me wrong. Didn't mean to point out or imply that you are wrong by any means. In fact it could very well be related to that, who knows? There may be some toxin that is released by dying BGA. In my case it was not as nearly as bad as outbreaks have been in the past where it covers everything. It is mostly on leaves near the top and on dead plant matter on the bottom and I have been diligent in removing it and did not do a erythromycin treatment which kills all of it. Instead I'm dosing my nitrate and Excel and it's slowly disappearing. I guess my point is that much of what we discuss is based on our observation of a somewhat non-controlled/ non-duplicatable (is that a word?) science experiment.


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## nixstyx (Mar 2, 2009)

Duly noted. And I think the word you were looking for was duplicable. Lol, sorry, I'm a journalist.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

do you have a new driftwood after your new tank setup?
any fish eat the diatoms on the wood will die if the wood is treated with pesticide.


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## XenoMorph2049 (Jun 17, 2006)

Now, I could be wrong here, but I'll toss it in for food for thought anyways. Most algae eaters are considered scaleless fish. This lack of "armor" makes them succeptable to outside factors more so than the standard fish. As well, due to there "fleshy" nature, snails are also succeptable. Med's, salt, softener salt, and heavy metals could all be responsible. While nothing has been added, it might have inadvertantly been introduced, by say, small children with small change, or along that line. Im probably off here, but thought it worth mentioning.


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## Blogmudgeon (May 24, 2011)

*Clues!*

I have had the same issue here this past week. Stable 40 gallon community (2 years since startup) tank, no BGA. Typical green dot, and a recent outbreak of red algae (black bearded variety) due to the daughter leaving the lights on 24/7 for a week while we were on vacation... :icon_sad:

That is getting under control. Chemistry is good, pH about 6.8, negligible nitrates/nitrites, and the tank is fully planted. About 5 days ago I did the regular weekly vacuum for mulm in the gravel, and a one-third water change. Everything remained stable until two days ago. First, two dead chinese algae eaters. Then the red tailed shark began to act lethargic--and roll over on his back near the top. The remainder of the fish--various tetras, barbs, rasboras, bala, etcetera, are all healthy and behaving normally.

Chemistry tested normal--and I did a 50% water change--replacing filter cartridges as well. Red tail has about completely recovered, but the last of the chinese algae eaters has died--all four in total. Twenty years of keeping freshwater planted community tanks--and I am at a total loss to explain what is happening--nor does reading just about every post in various fora reveal anything conclusive...


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