# new ADA amazonia problem. high PH and .5 ammonia after 4 weeks.



## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

have you tested your tap water, if your tap water uses chloramines to treat it, after you use a dechloranator your test kit read it as ammonia


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

What is the GH and KH? 

At first these soils release a lot of ammonia, but as they age they release less and less. 
In the first month the nitrifying bacteria are getting going, but they will not grow well when the KH is too low. 

Eventually the nitrifying bacteria and plants will remove the remaining ammonia that is produced, because the ammonia is being produced in smaller and smaller amounts, and the plants and bacteria are getting well established. 

So... the soil may continue to produce ammonia.
If plants and bacteria are not thriving then you will be able to test and see ammonia.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

lamiskool said:


> have you tested your tap water, if your tap water uses chloramines to treat it, after you use a dechloranator your test kit read it as ammonia


i dont use tap water. i use only RO water. with 0 everything.. maybe 1 tds


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## lamiskool (Jul 1, 2011)

blue planter said:


> i dont use tap water. i use only RO water. with 0 everything.. maybe 1 tds



ah srry should have read ur post more thoroughly


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

Diana, 

KH=0 GH is between 5-6 only because i added mineral GH+ .. I only use RO water what are some of the ways to raise the KH ? for time being.. i have always do 50% RO water changes before and maintained a tank that is KH 0 and GH 5-6 .. but now i cant get rid of the ammonia and PH is rising to around 7.8 within a day with RO water and new ada soil.. i just dont quite get it.. 

what is your speculation on the high PH considering i am using all RO with new ada soil that suppose to provide PH buffer (stabilize at lower range).

i barely have any plants in it marsilea minuta and hydrocotle. (both growing).. but i know its not enough to leach much of the ammonia 

sorry the tank doesn't really look that pretty for now.. all im trying to do is get it cycled so i can get it going...



Diana said:


> What is the GH and KH?
> 
> At first these soils release a lot of ammonia, but as they age they release less and less.
> In the first month the nitrifying bacteria are getting going, but they will not grow well when the KH is too low.
> ...


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## FlyingHellFish (Nov 5, 2011)

The initial spike is great for plants. They usually recommend you add as much plants as possible at the start, it's a nutrient substrate and I'm afraid some leeching is expected.
You can dose Prime if you're afraid of the ammonia, and add tons of plants. The ammonia leech can take a while, mine took way longer than expect. 

How old are your test kit? With a reading of .5 that pretty low, mine was cherry red at one point. 

The weird thing is your PH at 7ish. With new ADA Soil, it should buffer it down lower. 

I'm stumped.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> KH=0


Won't cycle like this! Add carbonates. Keep the KH at least 3 degrees while you are cycling, and higher is better. 

I am sure you have seen a graph where there are 2 lines that look like a playground slide. 
The ammonia production is high at first, (on the left), slopes down, then sort of bottoms out, not quite at zero then finally hits zero. This is the soil producing ammonia, getting slower and slower with time. 
The bacteria growth starts at zero, climbs slowly at first, then grows faster (steeper line) until it crosses the ammonia line. 
This is the point where you will no longer test ammonia, when the bacteria have grown to a point where they can remove the ammonia as fast as it it produced. Since your bacteria is not growing, you are continuing to see ammonia. 

As for the pH, I am not sure what is doing that, though ammonia might be doing it. It does not take much to affect the pH of RO water.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

i will be carpeting the tank today with hydrocotle, add a big piece of ada drift wood with some java fern.. 

the ammonia test kit is from API and expiration date is 3/17 my freshwater ammonia index card says my ammonia is between a 1-2 this morning when i just test it again... its going up again. 

yes i am completely speechless about the PH as well.. could it be the two sponge filters i have bubbling all day all night thats raising the PH? 

if you noticed in the pic i have to put a bag of PEAT in there.. which i didn't think i had to go that route to get the ph down with new ada soil.. 




FlyingHellFish said:


> The initial spike is great for plants. They usually recommend you add as much plants as possible at the start, it's a nutrient substrate and I'm afraid some leeching is expected.
> You can dose Prime if you're afraid of the ammonia, and add tons of plants. The ammonia leech can take a while, mine took way longer than expect.
> 
> How old are your test kit? With a reading of .5 that pretty low, mine was cherry red at one point.
> ...


Bump: should i introduce some cherry red's? or mix 75% ro with 25% tap water ? to get the KH to go up ? what method would you recommend diana? just to speed up the growth process initial bac ?

i even rinsed and squeeze the old filter from this tank to get all the good bac in it.. but apparently... this did not work :thumbsdow

thanks



Diana said:


> Won't cycle like this! Add carbonates. Keep the KH at least 3 degrees while you are cycling, and higher is better.
> 
> I am sure you have seen a graph where there are 2 lines that look like a playground slide.
> The ammonia production is high at first, (on the left), slopes down, then sort of bottoms out, not quite at zero then finally hits zero. This is the soil producing ammonia, getting slower and slower with time.
> ...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I have used baking soda in many tanks, and just recently got some potassium bicarbonate which works quite well, too. Either is good, just add them regularly to keep the KH up as long as it takes to complete the nitrogen cycle. 

I would not add any livestock until the ammonia problem is solved.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

i just planted hydrocotle and MM all over the place.. did another water change.. what i did differently this time is i mixed 60% tap water that has a KH of 5-6 with RO water. i also added some baking soda. i will leave this tank cycling for about another week and check the status when i return from my trip.. hopefully the ammonia then will be 0 

once it has reaches 0 is it safe to use 100% RO water with GH + again? my CRS has been sitting in a bucket and one unfortunately died.. want to get them out of that bucket ASAP. 

thanks diana



Diana said:


> I have used baking soda in many tanks, and just recently got some potassium bicarbonate which works quite well, too. Either is good, just add them regularly to keep the KH up as long as it takes to complete the nitrogen cycle.
> 
> I would not add any livestock until the ammonia problem is solved.


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## Dantrasy (Sep 9, 2013)

A piece of beach shell or coral in the filter will add carbonates and increase Kh. I prefer to do this rather than adding bi-carb every few days. As a rough guide, one use one thumb nail sized bit of shell per 10L.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

hey D, 

after another week and a half about 3 90% water change 75% tap + 25% RO + stress zyme the ammonia is still at .50 i am running out of options its been almost 1 and half month and i still cant get rid of this ammonia in my new amazonia not sure wtf is going on but its quite frustrating. 

any other options or comments i maybe able to approach or try?



Diana said:


> I have used baking soda in many tanks, and just recently got some potassium bicarbonate which works quite well, too. Either is good, just add them regularly to keep the KH up as long as it takes to complete the nitrogen cycle.
> 
> I would not add any livestock until the ammonia problem is solved.


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## denske (Feb 20, 2013)

You using Prime with water changes? I get false ammonia readings from Prime.


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## Dantrasy (Sep 9, 2013)

Adding Prime binds the ammonia so it's less harmful to livestock. But the ammonia is still there and the API test to still show a reading. 

If you have no livestock during your cycle there's no point using Prime. 

If I were you I'd add beneficial bacteria asap. Either grab some filthy filter wool from another tank's filter or beg/borrow/steal some from a friend's canister. (don't get it from a lfs). This is called seeding. 

If you can't find any filthy filter wool, buy some Seachem Stability - i think it's worked for me in the past, although 'bacteria in a bottle' seems a little weird to me (surely they'd die??). 

Q: what exactly do you have in your canister? bacteria really should have multiplied more by now.

edit: chuck in more plants. just let them float if need be. They'll soak up ammonia.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Keep the KH above 3 German degrees of hardness by adding baking soda as often as necessary, and doing water changes with tap water + RO. 
When you have the KH up, then add nitrifying bacteria. 

Add a lot of plants. So much you cannot see the back of the tank. Plants are part of the bio filter, and they do not need carbonates. They will grow in this water (0 dKH, 5dGH, pH anywhere from 6-8)

Use Prime if you are using tap water.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

i tested the ammonia in tap water before adding PRIME it came out to 0, i then add the PRIME to dechlor the tap water and mix it with 25% RO water .. thats how i do my water changes.. should i stop using PRIME? 

i let it cycle; now every two days then i test the ammonia again and it comes out to .50 -green-ish in the test tube (im just about out of clues)

i do have use filter wools but im afraid/reluctant to put that in my newly established tank because they might have snails / eggs on it =. everything i put in to this new tank with the new amazonia has been treated 




Dantrasy said:


> Adding Prime binds the ammonia so it's less harmful to livestock. But the ammonia is still there and the API test to still show a reading.
> 
> If you have no livestock during your cycle there's no point using Prime.
> 
> ...


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

My tank did the same thing during cycling. For weeks it kept on showing ammonia and 0 nitrite and nitrate. Then one day ammonia got to 0.5 and it just stalled. After a week of the same .5 ammonia I went out and bought some Nite-out II and within 2 days of dosing my nitrates shot through the roof at 40ppm with 0 ammonia and nitrite. Haven't seen ammonia or nitrite ever since.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

my only worry about this product is that .. even though it may stabilize the ammonia level however without a good number of healthy BAC.. its bound to spike again later... thoughts everyone?



gus6464 said:


> My tank did the same thing during cycling. For weeks it kept on showing ammonia and 0 nitrite and nitrate. Then one day ammonia got to 0.5 and it just stalled. After a week of the same .5 ammonia I went out and bought some Nite-out II and within 2 days of dosing my nitrates shot through the roof at 40ppm with 0 ammonia and nitrite. Haven't seen ammonia or nitrite ever since.


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## Ryan9316 (Jun 16, 2008)

I'm using ADA Aquasoil as well, I can smell the ammonia in my water.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is the fishless cycle. 
I am adding it for 2 reasons. 
First, I think one of your goals is to complete the nitrogen cycle in this tank, so following this recipe will do that. 
Second, the bacteria grow best in a narrow range of conditions, though they will live at a wider range. While you are cycling you want the optimum conditions for them. And if you do not follow the instructions in the fishless cycle, you will at least know why the bacteria are not growing. 

Products that contain the right species of bacteria include
Microbe Lift's Nite Out II
Dr. Tim's One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
... and perhaps others. Look for Nitrospira species of bacteria on the label. 

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1b) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## blue planter (May 27, 2012)

thank you diana for that detailed explanation it was good reading!.. my ammonia has dropped to .025 now.. its looking better 



Diana said:


> Here is the fishless cycle.
> I am adding it for 2 reasons.
> First, I think one of your goals is to complete the nitrogen cycle in this tank, so following this recipe will do that.
> Second, the bacteria grow best in a narrow range of conditions, though they will live at a wider range. While you are cycling you want the optimum conditions for them. And if you do not follow the instructions in the fishless cycle, you will at least know why the bacteria are not growing.
> ...


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