# Autodosing for Dummies



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Great thread - a service to the community on how easy, and inexpensively, you can set up something to greatly simplify this hobby!

One vote for sticky here.:thumbsup:


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## SammyP (Apr 26, 2006)

thanks alot wasserpest! this autodosing is going to be my next project especially since i just got some greg watson ferts to replace my seachem stuff. i've got a 10 gallon and a 20 gallon to do. ugh... MORE TIMERS.. you should SEE what the electrical stuff looks like under my stand! something along these lines only its much worse! dammit self stop complaining and just do it! ok fine!:icon_eek:


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## distrbd (Feb 17, 2006)

Great stuff.I am thinking you could use an air pump ,pumping into a sealed container,that has only 2 holes on the lid,one for the air pump line in,another hole for the outlet line .the pressure from the air pump pushing on the surface of the liquid inside the container and as a result the liquid has no place to go but up through the outlet line into the tank.
I have used this system on other projects and realized you really don't need a lot of air pressure to push on any liquid as long as the liquid is not too thick and also the container is not placed too far form the receiving tank.
So Wasserperst what do you think?


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## valleyvampiress (Apr 25, 2005)

I'd really love it if someone could come up with a way to dose dry ferts and have it connect to the filter so that there litterally would be only two tubes in your tank; both the filter's.

I just have this thing about dry ferts since I've always done it that way. It's just less hassle for me (and I don't have to worry about weird stuff growing in the mix). At the moment, I pre-measure my doses and put them in small finger paint containers that are then stored in a little plastic box, so when I dose I just pick one out and dump it in. I can't imagine having to measure every other day.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

distrbd said:


> Great stuff.I am thinking you could use an air pump ,pumping into a sealed container,that has only 2 holes on the lid,one for the air pump line in,another hole for the outlet line .the pressure from the air pump pushing on the surface of the liquid inside the container and as a result the liquid has no place to go but up through the outlet line into the tank.
> I have used this system on other projects and realized you really don't need a lot of air pressure to push on any liquid as long as the liquid is not too thick and also the container is not placed too far form the receiving tank.
> So Wasserperst what do you think?


I think that has been described first by Mr. Magicmagnihere and then I sort of repeated it here. It works very well too, but is a little bit harder to adjust. Note that I removed the drippers and control the pump output via airline valves - much simpler.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

valleyvampiress said:


> I'd really love it if someone could come up with a way to dose dry ferts and have it connect to the filter so that there litterally would be only two tubes in your tank; both the filter's.


A clear piece of airline is _almost_ invisible...


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## pdavidc (May 20, 2006)

My 1st post and not sure how to ask this question but...Once you figure out how much fert to use for a given time you want to autodose, say 1 week, and then you test your pump and determine the amount of liquid dispensed for 1 minute so that you can fill your container enough that it wont run out of liquid, wont you always have to leave enough liquid in the container to keep the pump submerged? And wont the pump stop pumping (I am using an old powerhead) once the liquid level gets to a certain point? Then..(finally getting to my point :icon_redf ) how do you adjust the strength of your solution to compensate for the liquid that will never make it into the tank each week?

The answer is probably simple... 

_ALWAYS KEEP IN MIND THAT THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT MENTALLY CAPABLE OF DOSING DRY FERTS DIRECTLY INTO THEIR TANK AND I MAY BE ONE OF THEM. 

All information, attitudes, and opinions © Rex Grigg._


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

After months I have finally figured this out (I'm slow, but I'm good  !)

Say you want 14 days worth of ferts. You add together the doses for 2 weeks. That's how much dry stuff you need. You take your pump and figure out how much water it dispenses in say, 1 minute (or 2 minutes, or 3 minutes, however much) when it's set up exactly as it will be with the fertilizer solution. Say that's a half a pint (one cup). Mix 14 cups of water and the 14 days worth of ferts in your container, set your pump for that time where it will dispense one cup a day and you've got it. Of course, that is just for 14 days. You'd probably either want to mix up a couple of extra days to take care of that problem you're talking about, or change it out when it's getting low (say at 12 days instead of the 14 day mark.) I know there's some pumps that _say_ they'll pump in something like a half inch of liquid, although I don't know if I'd really want to test that or not!

Just happened to think, alternatively what Wasserpest has done I think is to fill up his container with water, run the pump for a minute, make a mark, run it for another minute, make a mark, etc., etc. If the container is tapered the marks will be at different heights. It'll give you the same measurements sort of. After you have all the marks you'd know to fill it up to the 14th mark and add your two weeks worth of ferts. Same thing.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Dave, welcome to The Planted Tank, thanks for asking this question.

You are right, there is always a little bit of solution left over that can not be pumped into the tank.

This amount can be minimized by using a pump that sucks the water from its bottom (like the Hydor Pico) or lay the pump on its side so the impeller compartment is on the bottom (make sure the water can still circulate though).

You could also use the leftover bit of solution to "gap dose" after a water change, if you do the water change and fertilizer refill on the same day.

I usually end up fertilizing my house plants with whatever is left in the containers.

For my 10gal tank, I use a different method with an airpump pushing the solution into the tank, and there it will be used to the last drop.

Regarding adjusting the strength... I don't think this needs to be THAT precise. After two weeks of dosing, only a small amount remains in the containers, I guess you could slightly increase your fertilizer portion, I figure it doesn't matter.

Let me know if there is anything that should be explained in more detail. Like Rex says, dosing fertilizers can be a challenge, sure. :hihi:


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## pdavidc (May 20, 2006)

Thanks Rosehawke and Wasserpest.

I was thinking of making enough solution (volume and strength) to cover a week and a half and then dose for the week. I can use the leftover, as you say, for a gap dose. Great idea and great plans. Will be implimenting on Monday!

Thanks for your great posts and for the welcome.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Actually that's a great idea using the leftovers for watering the houseplants (or hanging planters in my case.) Although I have a philodendron that's about ready to "go Cleopatra" on me now! It's the only true houseplant I've not managed to kill. Usually 'cause I tend to forget that they're not silk .


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Interesting idea, can you give more specifics about the pump you used and volume of the container etc.

I recently tried something similar that didn't work very well. I used a 1 gallon jug that had two holes drilled in the cap which were fitted with airline bulkheads. To one of the connectors I attached a rigid airline tube to the inside of the cap and a hose that ran to the tank on the other side of the cap. To the second bulkhead I attached a hose that ran to an air pump. I figured when the air pump was on it would basically blow the liquid from the bottle into the tank. The problem was that it was very inconsistant with the dosing. It required much more time to send the same amount of fluid as the water level in my bottle dropped. This was probably due to the change in back pressure caused by the increasing height the liquid needed to be pumped.

I have been considering trying a gravity feed, and using a soleniod valve connected to a timer to turn it on and off. Just havent looked into the solenoid valves yet. I figure if this works it should provide a very consistant rate of flow.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

vidiots said:


> Interesting idea, can you give more specifics about the pump you used and volume of the container etc.


I think pretty much any pump will work, but if you put the container underneath the tank, it needs to be strong enough to lift up the water. My favorite little pump is the AS MiniJet 606, not only for this application, it is reliable, silent, strong, and fairly inexpensive. I have also used a Hydor Pico which sucks water from the bottom and empties the container well.

The containers I am using are prolly half a gallon. What I would do is to use this as a top off as well. So if your tank is losing about a gallon per week, use a larger container. For a 10 gal tank, you probably want to scale things back.



vidiots said:


> I recently tried something similar that didn't work very well. I used a 1 gallon jug that had two holes drilled in the cap which were fitted with airline bulkheads. To one of the connectors I attached a rigid airline tube to the inside of the cap and a hose that ran to the tank on the other side of the cap. To the second bulkhead I attached a hose that ran to an air pump. I figured when the air pump was on it would basically blow the liquid from the bottle into the tank. The problem was that it was very inconsistant with the dosing. It required much more time to send the same amount of fluid as the water level in my bottle dropped. This was probably due to the change in back pressure caused by the increasing height the liquid needed to be pumped.


I think you hit the famous nail on its famous head with your observation. For a container as large as a gallon, the pump method like I described works better. I am using 16oz or 24oz or so Gatorade bottles the way you described, and place them on the same level as my 10 gal tank, and that works great. One key for success is NOT to restrict the outflow (which will pressurize the bottle and therefore give you very different results with full and empty bottles), but to control the airflow into the bottles.



vidiots said:


> I have been considering trying a gravity feed, and using a soleniod valve connected to a timer to turn it on and off. Just havent looked into the solenoid valves yet. I figure if this works it should provide a very consistant rate of flow.


Please share if you find a working method. There are many ways to do inexpensive fert dosing (Water pump, air pump, aqualifter, oral syringe, automatic feeder are a few that come to mind) but sure there are more. Just keep track of cost... using solenoids and valves can add up quickly.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

Wasserpest, I am going to try your dosing idea this week, but before I start is there anything that you now would do differently or dont like about this system


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The only thing I don't like about this... the solution degrades somewhat over time. I let it run for two weeks before cleaning and refilling, and it isn't too bad.

Ppl have suggested HCl (hydrochloric acid) to prevent that, maybe worth a try.

For dosing of more concentrated liquids, have a look at what I just posted here: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/diy/32382-wasserpests-cheap-liquid-doser.html


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

by degrades do you mean grows stuff or gets weaker. I saw that other post, it just dosent seem as reliable to me. I enjoy or DIY ideas for sure so keep it up!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I found that the micro solution grows stuff, and the macro solution starts to smell like an old dishwashing sponge. Not sure if the micro solution gets weaker over time... I keep it dark, but there is a possibility that it breaks down slowly.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

A long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away ,) when I was messing around with papier mache, one recipe I ran across said to add a few drops of wintergreen oil to the paper mash to keep the mixture from molding. Found some at a pharmacy, did so, and it did indeed keep it fresh.

The problem is I don't know _what_ wintergreen oil would do to an aquarium.

At least the fish would have fresh breath :hihi: . . .


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

How about Melafix? Melaleuca (Tea tree) oil is supposed to be anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. Not sure what it does (if anything) to the fertilizers.

I'll try if a few drops show any effect.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> How about Melafix? Melaleuca (Tea tree) oil is supposed to be anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. Not sure what it does (if anything) to the fertilizers.
> 
> I'll try if a few drops show any effect.


Worth a shot. Although my inclination is "it can't be that easy!" I did make one of these auto-dosers today though! Cool! I don't have it calibrated exactly, I ran out of patience to see how much liquid the little 606 pump would move in two minutes (I'm using a 1 gallon joint compound bucket temporarily for the reservoir.) I think a taller, narrower container would be a bit better. It'll do for the time-being. This "ain't rocket science!"

Hubby's out adjusting his valves on his motorcycle :icon_roll. I had to have *some*thing to do today !


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

RoseHawke said:


> I ran out of patience to see how much liquid the little 606 pump would move in two minutes


LOL, I spent hours patiently looking at how slowly the level goes down. Fun.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

I am currently testing a similar design. For my pump I bought a Tom Aqua Lifter AW-20 vacuum pump. It looks like a small air pump with two connectors that are labeled in and out. It is not submersible. It is rated at 3.5gallons/hour and lifts fluid up to 30". It only cost $9.99 at Big Als Online. For my reservoir, I'm using an old plastic gallon jug. I drilled a hole in the cap and stuck a piece of rigid air line tubing through it to reach the bottom. I put a couple additional tiny holes in the cap to allow air to enter as the fluid leaves the bottle.

I set the bottle on the bottom of my stand next to my 20gal High sump tank. I set the pump on top of the sump tank. I used flexible airline tubing to connect the rigid tubing to the pumps input. I connected another piece of flexible airline tubing between the pumps output and a hole drilled in my sumps lid.

I used a stopwatch to measure the amount of time it took to fill a 250mL measureing cup. With the reservoir full it took about 4.75 minutes, and with the reservoir near empty it took about 3.25 minutes. I averaged these times and calculated that it was dosing at an average rate of about 64mL per minute. I figure if I set a timer to turn it on for 3minutes per day it will dose almost 200mL per day, and that 3 Liters of fluid in my reservoir should last just over 2 weeks. The variation results in an error of about 20% in dosing, meaning that it will dose about 20% more than the average the first few days and about 20% less than average the last few days. I figure that is consistant enough for my needs.

Now only time will tell how well this system will perform in the long run.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

There is another thread for this sort of dosing, check this out! So many ways...


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

My pump insists on emptying my container (1.5L) in 4.20 minutes.

Would it be a bad idea to restrict the pump further than it already is? it's an Eheim pump of some sort.


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## SCMurphy (Oct 21, 2003)

You can restrict the outflow of a water pump with a valve of some kind, I use ball valves on my sump return pumps. The pump reacts to the restriction the same way it would react to increased head. Never restrict the intake side of a water pump.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

decrease the diameter of tubing as well


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I modify those black plastic drip irrigation connectors to adjust the squirt... You can heat them up over your stove a little, pinch them closed, and then with an appropriately sized needle, create a tiny hole to adjust the flow.

Placing the container on the floor instead of at the same level as the tank will create some head and reduce the throughput.

Chosing a weaker pump would be a good solution too.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

On another note, earlier I commented on the degradation of the solution. Still working on it, but it seems like leaving the KH2PO4 off, just mixing KNO3 and K2SO4, seems to help.

I am planning to inject P via the "Fluidoser" (timer + syringe) and keep this solution dosing for 4 weeks. :smile:


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

I am getting the same thing wasserpest, after 17 days, I get a slimy coat on the tubing and sides. Last time it had a very light pink tint to the tubing? Ill try what you suggest. I miss dosing things everyday!


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

did you guys use RO water? Maybe that can help on the degrading?


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Symbiot said:


> did you guys use RO water? Maybe that can help on the degrading?


For reasons I don't fully understand, I found less scum in my reservoir by mixing with tap water, instead of distilled. With distilled water I'd get this fuzzy white film build up on the bottom of the macro fert reservoir. With plain tap water I don't seem to get this. The nice thing is that tap water is much cheaper.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

bigstick120 said:


> I miss dosing things everyday!


Hard to believe!


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

hmm... my setup is acting strange.
I did up all the bits, and it worked like it should. Ran it to check how long it takes to empty, and let it run dry.
Then refill to adjust outflow. Now it just sits there.. like it lost the will to live..
Well removed the hose and started it up.. woomp, runs like a baby.
Connected it again... no go....
Connected a larger piece of hose... runs smoothly.

So; 16/22mm hose, with a 4/6mm hose coming out of it.. sealed with silicone.
Works... once..?
Then a 12/16 inside the connector on the pump, runs fine..

Weird...

does the description make any sense?

it like it can't get "it out" so to speak... any ideas?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Not sure I understand completely... What do you use the larger hoses for, to connect the pump with the airline tubing? What did you have to seal with silicone? Are there any leaks in your connections? The backpressure might be enough to create little leaks that you won't notice when the pump is submerged in solution, but enough to reduce the output to nil...


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

right...
Eheim compact 1000 
Connector is for a 16/22mm hose. So I need a 16/22 hose, and then I add the 4/6mm hose inside the 16/22mm, and seal it with silicone.
I have leakchecked it, and can find nothing. It _may_ be backpressure.
When it happened, I tried removing the hose, and nothing changed, so the problem was still there after removing the airline etc.

I wrote that I removed the hose and it ran, well not until later on. At first it was like the out flow was being restricted.
I disassembled it to check, but there was nothing to see.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Do you have the container sitting on the floor, pumping a few feet up? That might be too much for the little pump.

Although, if it worked before, and then stopped, that does sound like a leak. I wouldn't trust silicon and hoses... doesn't bond very well.

If you look at my solution... I used a little plastic syringe to bridge the pump output with the airline. If you find one of those oral syringes with the same diameter as your pump output, you just use a piece of hose (16/22mm) to connect the pump and the syringe. The airline then fits on top of the syringe.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

On yet another note...

I think I found the culprit for degrading solutions... KH2PO4. I had a solution of KNO3 and K2SO4 and K2Mg4 for two weeks, and it didn't get the typical smell. So now I mixed them up for four weeks!

I can add the P once a week, or rig up some more of the Fluidosers to add it that way.


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

Wasserpest said:


> Do you have the container sitting on the floor, pumping a few feet up? That might be too much for the little pump.
> 
> Although, if it worked before, and then stopped, that does sound like a leak. I wouldn't trust silicon and hoses... doesn't bond very well.
> 
> If you look at my solution... I used a little plastic syringe to bridge the pump output with the airline. If you find one of those oral syringes with the same diameter as your pump output, you just use a piece of hose (16/22mm) to connect the pump and the syringe. The airline then fits on top of the syringe.


The pump is on the floor, but it's an O.K. sized pump, and should be able to lift water 1.5M.

Strange that it seems, I found a syringe among my aquarium kit... it fits over a 16/22 and the airline fits as well.
Now I just need to wait until I come home from work to test it.

Thanks!


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

so, I set it up, and am testing it now. 
I ran it once already, and it seems ok.. but it hasn't displayed any behavior dissimilar to the other testruns.

I just filled it the second time, but while fiddelig, I pushed the hose further down, and created backpressure through the pump, 2nd time is just finished now.. ran smooth.. 
This is straight airline, no reduction of pressure etc.

Let's try it the 3rd time.


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

well, 3rd time ran smoothly.

I just added my valve, and elbow joint.

1st time is running. Let's see what happens after this.


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

Right.

officially I now have an autodoser. Or at least a doser. Now I need to figure out the timing etc.
Got the timer, set it up to 1 min. runs. 
Now comes the on/off for ages trying to figure out the intervals.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

Symbiot said:


> Right.
> 
> officially I now have an autodoser. Or at least a doser. Now I need to figure out the timing etc.
> Got the timer, set it up to 1 min. runs.
> Now comes the on/off for ages trying to figure out the intervals.


I finally got tired of doing that. I ended up using a small plastic container (a recycled yogurt container in this case) set the timer temporarily for like one minute a couple of minutes from now, held the container under the "tap" and waited until it ran its minute. Marked the container to that height, then got a cheapie plastic pitcher which I put 14 fillings (two weeks) of the measured yogurt container into, then marked _that_ as two weeks worth, figured up two weeks worth of ferts and dumped 'em in, mixed 'em up real good then poured the pitcher full of fertilizer solution into the delivery system container under the stand. Then re-set the timer for its "real" delivery time.

It's been working like a champ  (Thanks, Wasserpest!) No more hit or miss dosing (I've got a memory like a sieve) and the tank looks great for a change (knock on wood.)


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

Excellent suggestion.
We'll see what I come up with. I might not be home all day, so this may have to wait a while.

About degrading.. 
Yesterday my girlfriend was making her own jam/marmelade thing. 
When you do, you add a bit of Sodium benzoate to keep the jam from degrading... hmm...
It's used in food, so perhaps it could be used to stop KH2PO4 from messing with the solution?


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

any thoughts on using jam conserver liquid thingy?


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

while contemplating the Sodium benzoate, I came across a wikipage stating that it only worked at a pH of less than 3.6 .. so no go there.

Anyway, I mixed my first solution of autodosing liquid.
my normal weekly dosing schedule is found in my signature. I just doubled the dose for 1 week, apart from the K2SO4.

So my mix is:

KNO3 4,5 tsp
KH2PO4 1,5
K2SO4 1 tsp
micro 120ml


Sound ok?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Sounds like a lot of phosphates to me, but, each tank is different, and it might be right for your tank.

Regarding marmelades, I just sterilize the glasses/covers with boiling water, fill them with the hot marmelade, close them, and let them cool. That way you can keep them for years, as long as the seal is tight. No preservatives.

There are reports on the Krib about the use of HCl as a preservative.

I will let you know in about 3.5 weeks how the solutions held up for that period... If so, I change to a 2 month cycle, with autodosing every other day.


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

¼ tsp KH2PO4 3x week adds up to 1.5 tsp.. I hope. 

Perhaps you add something different to your marmelades when preparing them..


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

1/4 X 3= 3/4 its 1.5 in 2 weeks if that is the mixture that you made up


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Symbiot said:


> ¼ tsp KH2PO4 3x week adds up to 1.5 tsp.. I hope.
> 
> Perhaps you add something different to your marmelades when preparing them..


Sugar and fruits... nothing else!  

I think your math is correct, I just add much less phosphates to my tanks, but like I said, every tank uses nutrients in a different way.


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## CardBoardBoxProcessor (Sep 17, 2006)

mm.. care to make a sketch of how it is set up?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The first image tells most of it, but here is a drawing that also shows how I integrated the Fluidoser into the dosing setup.

Basically the Fluidoser pushes the micros into the macro hose, then once a day the macros are squirted into the tank, taking the micros along with them.

That way, you can not add phosphates (KH2PO4) to the macro mix, but I found that they spoil the mix anyway, while the mixture of KNO3 and K2SO4 alone lasts 4 weeks without degrading. I just squirt phosphates into the tank once a week after water change. No biggie.


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## CardBoardBoxProcessor (Sep 17, 2006)

picture is too small xd


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Here are some pics of my autodoser which hold about 2 weeks worth of ferts:


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

How does the AquaLifter work out for you? It was mentioned that it is very head sensitive, so are the amounts dosed about the same whether the mix bottle is empty or full?

My goal was to extend the time for refills. If the "fluidoser" works out, I can let it run over long periods, just refill the concentrated micro reservoir once in a while. The macro solution is now running for 4 week periods, leaving the KH2PO4 off keeps it smelling fresh for that much longer.

Thank you for sharing your setup, yet another way to auto-dose.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

This setup seems to be fairly stable. It might over dose by say 30% one day, and underdose by say 30% on another day, but it all averages out in the end.
I mix up 1 weeks ferts each week, and add them and top off the 1 gal jug with water. So it gets the same pretty much the amount each week, just varies slightly from one day to the next. The jug holds two weeks worth, just incase I forget or am unable to top it off exacty on schedule. This was pretty cheap too, $10 for each pump, and a few dollars for the timer and power strip. The 1gal jugs were free, and I had plenty of tubing laying around. You just have to try different heights of the pump or reservoir to get fairly consistant dosing.

I just timed how long it took the pump to drain an amount of water out of the jug to figure out the timer setting and amount to dose with everything set in the position it was gonna be used in.


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## Just40Fun (Jul 15, 2005)

vidiots said:


> Here are some pics of my autodoser which hold about 2 weeks worth of ferts:


wonderful setup, how has it been working so far? How much do you dose daily? Your tank and mine are the same size, in fact, even the sump is the same size.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Just40Fun said:


> wonderful setup, how has it been working so far? How much do you dose daily? Your tank and mine are the same size, in fact, even the sump is the same size.


One gallon lasts approx 2 weeks with the timer set for 2 min per day which dispenses roughly 270ml of solution per day. So I just mix 14 days worth of dry ferts in each gallon jug. The dosing routine is roughly the EI method modified to suit my setup.

If you meant amounts:
my 2 week macro mix is currently:
11.8 tsp KNO3
1.86 tsp KH2PO4
1.65 tsp K2SO4
1 gallon water

my 2 week micro mix is currently:
3.22 tsp CSM+B
1 gallon water

And if all the math is correct my daily doses should be:
4.00 ppm NO3
0.80 ppm PO4
4.35 ppm K
0.10 ppm Fe

But this is also for a very bright tank with pressurized C02, and lots of plants and >10% daily water changes. I occasionally make minor changes to the amounts dosed. A different setup might need different doses..

Tom Barr's site has a lot of good info about his EI method (EI=Estimative Index).
http://www.barrreport.com/


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## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

Would this be a good pump?
Micro-Jet Pumps


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Justintoxicated said:


> Would this be a good pump?
> Micro-Jet Pumps


Looks like that pump could work. You just need to try to match the flow rate to the head height of your intended setup. A higher head height will reduce the flow and dose more consistantly. The reduced flow will allow you to set your timer for a longer period of time which means you have better fine tuning of your doses.

This calculator link will help you determine actual flow rate at a given height:
Reef Central Online Head Loss Calculator


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

If you plan to place the mixture container underneath the tank, I would go with a slightly stronger pump, like the MiniJet AS606.

Aquarium Water Pumps & Powerheads: UL-Listed Mini•Jet Pumps

Mini-Jet 606 Powerhead - Marine Depot - Marine and Reef Aquarium Super Store


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

Are there any concerns with mixing more than a week of macros at a time? Will they degrade if they are in water too long?


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

I'm trying out a mix of both micros and macros.
They last about 10 days(ish)
So far I haven't seen any problems with mold or anything else.
I mix the amounts, written in my signature, with RO water.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

donaldbyrd said:


> Are there any concerns with mixing more than a week of macros at a time? Will they degrade if they are in water too long?


Good question, which has come up a couple of times in this thread.

Initially, I mixed macros and micros, less KH2PO4, together in one container. After two weeks, it grew slimy black stuff, and stank.

To figure out what was causing which, I separated macros and micros. Now the macro solution was smelly, and the micro solution grew stuff.

I noticed that mixing only KNO3 and K2SO4 and leaving the phosphates out would reduce smellyness. Now I mix just N and K and the solution is dosed for four weeks and it doesn't smell bad. Just for the record, for my 100gal tank, I use ~1gal of water and dissolve 6 tsp of KNO3, 4 tsp of K2SO4, and 2 tsp of MgSO4. I dose P separately, once a week.

It is possible that the solution will last longer if it is higher or lower concentrated. Would be worth to do some testing, but for now I am happy with the 4 week cycle.

Regarding the micros, I haven't found a way to prevent the growth. Instead, I am using the Fluidoser which injects full strength Flourish into the tanks. Using undiluted micros, nothing grows in there.


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## Justintoxicated (Oct 18, 2006)

I was thinking about trying an airpump setup rather than a small pump.

Then I could use a nice 2 Liter bottle and have a good seal at the top (twist the cap on) - No Stinkyness.

what are the advantages to using a pump?

edit: Another option would be to use an inline pump I suppose, with a one way valve to keep the container from imploding.

BTW: I picked up an electric timer at Target in the X-mas light section that you can run in 1 minute intervals and alternate days of the week to dose if you choose to (allowing you to mix more concentrated in your container if needed). It was $10.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

The airpump method works well for smaller containers. For a 2l bottle, you would have a large air space as the solution gets lower, and there will be a large difference of what is dosed when the bottle is full vs when the bottle is almost empty.

Stinkyness isn't really an issue for the room, more so for the fishies, so moving that into a closed bottle doesn't resolve the problem.


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## RoseHawke (Mar 10, 2004)

I haven't noticed any smell or growth in mine. However mine is mixed about half strength, and is changed (when I remember :icon_roll ) about every 10 days. I do not use treated water for the solution, just water straight from the tap, figuring it's just a couple cups a day, and the tank gets a weekly water change. The macros are all in one bucket, micros in another, dosed about 4 hours apart. The micros consist of Flourish, Flourish Iron, and Flourish Excel. The Excel, however is a full recommended dose. No problems so far.


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

I have been mixing about 2 weeks of macros at a time and about a month of micros so far no smells or anything growing.


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## MoonFish (Feb 12, 2006)

I just bought some of the old people MTWTFSS pill dispensers and shoveled the dry goods into that. I just set it up. I wonder how many problems I have had from hastily tossing mini spoonfulls into the tank? Not to mention the forgetting.


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## 5380 (Jun 3, 2006)

I have been doing planted tanks for a few years, and my 500ml CSM+B+phosphate always grew mold. I made it so that 1ml was the dose for the week, and stored it in the fridge and it still grew mold. About a year ago it occured to me to use Excel as 1/2 the solvent, no mold and no fridge needed. And if i spray it on any BGA it dies, even kills the clado that i had.

HTH


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Symbiot said:


> I'm trying out a mix of both micros and macros.
> They last about 10 days(ish)
> So far I haven't seen any problems with mold or anything else.
> I mix the amounts, written in my signature, with RO water.


I have read that the issue with mixing the micros and macros isn't so much mold, but that the phosphate can combine with the iron and render both unavailable to plants. I am not a chemist so I don't know or understand this first hand.


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

I've always read about the "precipitive fallout" of phosphates and iron being dosed together as well, hmmm.....


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Anthony said:


> I've always read about the "precipitive fallout" of phosphates and iron being dosed together as well, hmmm.....


I have even seen it! :icon_bigg

So yes, I think combining micros (iron) and phosphates in concentrated form in one container isn't a good idea. That's why you see often macro and micro dosing containers separate. Others combine everything except the phosphates.


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## Anthony (Jan 11, 2005)

Will mixing everything will the exception of phosphates in one container cause the micros to degrade?


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## donaldbyrd (Jun 8, 2005)

I mix my micro's and macro's separately. My micro mix is 1TBLS of csm+b plus iron to 250 ml of tap water which last me a little over a month I have never noticed mold or any smells from it other then the slight smell of the iron.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Anthony said:


> Will mixing everything will the exception of phosphates in one container cause the micros to degrade?


Not sure if anyone can answer this question at this time... Besides the phosphate - iron reaction, I am not aware of any other problems. However, there are many elements in the micro mix, so... who knows.

I have started dosing small doses of full strength micro solution which doesn't seem to degrade or grow mold. The waterpump dosing described in this thread works great for macros though.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

When I ordered my ferts from Greg Watson, I asked him which I could mix and this was his response:
_
"Basically you can mix everything except the Plantex CSM+B ... phosphate and the Iron that is in the Plantex CSM have a tendancy to bond and percipitate out in a relatively unuseable form ... now this is not an instantaneous process ... you can think of it like rusting ... this process will naturally occur in your aquarium over time (think of it in the context that there is always Iron present and always phosphate present, so this slow process is ongoing) ... but what you really don't want to do is facilitate that process in a solution <grin> ... "_


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## StrikeEagle1 (Jan 15, 2006)

Can you just have two systems, one containing macros (without phosphate I guess) and the other with CSM+B mixed up? 

So underneath tank, two containers, two pumps on the same 1 min timer, etc?

Looking to automate my dosing since I'm active duty and gone a lot.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Sure you can, see vidiots picture a little earlier this thread. And you could add P to the macro mix, if you inject macros and micros a little apart from each other into your tank there shouldn't be any problems with precipitation.


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## StrikeEagle1 (Jan 15, 2006)

Awesome...before I buy stuff here are a couple of other questions...

I'm assuming the Hydor Pico 500 would work (close to the one you suggested)

Hydor Pico 500 Pump at Big Al's Online

I would buy two and use my Neptune Aquacontroller to manage the on/off of the pumps, can assign each a different number and dose at different times. Trying to make a lot automated as you can see...

For connecting the output of the pump to airline tubing...how? Maybe use standard size tubing from Lowes to connect to the pump (whatever the pump uses, 16/22, etc) and then a barb reduction also from Lowes to make it connect to airline tubing?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

I had a Hydor Pico 500 (I think) doing the dosing for a while, and it is noisy, weak, and gets airlocked easily. I have much better results with AS MiniJet 606's.

Thing you have to remember is that they are running only a minute per day, so if they collect air for some reason and can't purge it quickly they won't work so well after a couple of days.

Also, if you plan to put the container underneath your tank, you need a certain wattage to get the liquid delivered up to the tank rim. I had to lift up some containers a bit, sitting on the bottom of the stand the pumps turned out too weak. Keep in mind you can easily adjust the dosed quantity by sizing the nozzle on the end of the tubing.

Not sure about an universal way to connect the pump and the airline tubing. I use plastic oral syringes to step down the diameter, and connect the syringe with another little piece of vinyl tubing. Barb reducers would work, I guess you could even use one of those $1 plastic checkvalves, open them up, and use the housing as a reducer.


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## StrikeEagle1 (Jan 15, 2006)

*StrikeEagle1's attempt....*

Hey all, finally had some time and decided to put one of these together...

Went to Lowes and managed to get everything I needed except for the reservoir container. Got a Submersible Fountain Pump that had the same relative numbers (~160 GPH, etc) with a 1/2" ID connection. Then went to the plumbing section and got some 1/2" ID hose, and then some reducing items. Basically went from the 1/2" barb to a 3/16" barb and got the appropriate tubing. Also picked up the electronic timer!

Got it all home, installed everything and tested out the output on the pump. I also installed a ball valve to regulate the amount that the pump delivered. Everything went together pretty well and hopefully it'll stay together :icon_roll 

Some pictures....

Before install (you can see the brass barb reduction fitting I put together and the ball valve)









Under the tank...









All in all easy so far, have to wait to see if everything works as advertised...or at least how I hope it does! Thanks for the info on this thread, greatly helpful from all! :icon_smil


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Looks great, thanks for posting the pictures! roud: 

Using a ball valve to regulate the dosing is a good idea. Where did you get that valve? I was just looking for exactly the same thing in HD, and they only had those huge white plastic ball valves for Sched 40 PVC connections. No Lowes in town... yet.

How long will this solution autodose your tank? I have mine set to dose 4 weeks now, I feel that's a good interval.


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## StrikeEagle1 (Jan 15, 2006)

I got the ball valve from Ball Valves
The smallest is 1/2" for tubing but that works great since I have a 1/2" output from the pond pump. The pump itself which is just one of those fountain pumps from the pond section has a adjustment on it also, but right now I have that on max with the ball valve slightly closed. 

The barbs and reducer took a bit of time to figure out but so far are working out great.

I'm putting a little less than 1 cup of solution every day from the reservoir. I would have to decrease that amount to increase how long I can autodose.
Right now I'm trying out a two week dose and if that works I'll see about increasing the time frame. 

It's awesome so far not having to remember to dose. Only thing that isn't in the mix is P so I'll just add that every week. roud: :bounce:


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

Looks like it should work. I too like the idea of the ball valve, should allow for better fine tuning. Did you test to see how consistantly it dosed near full versus near empty? When I was testing different things I found that short wide shallow containers were more consistant than tall narrow deep containers because the height of the fluid changed less. Although I think you are using a more powerful pump than I am so the pressure caused by the height of the liquid maybe insignifigant compared to the pressure generated by the pump.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Like you said, getting a pump that is strong enough is the key in preventing fluctuations due to the height of fluid. The restriction from the ball valve (or nozzle hole size on the outflow) needs to reduce the flow, not the head pressure from pumping the solution up into the tank. 

If the fluid just so drips out of the airline into the tank, changes in fluid levels will have a huge effect.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Strike Eagle, Are you not mixing CSM+B with KNO3 and K? I have started out that way, but that post above makes me a little apprehensive. Anybody else? 

I have some Flourish on the way and some TMG I just bought so I could use/substitute those for traces instead of the CSM+B. 

I am only using one container for trace/KNO3/Pottasium and am dosing PO4 manually. I have one of these set up on two different tanks, two independent units - and am trying to avoid setting up two other units for PO4 or for traces.

I am also curious if anyone has noted a degradation of the traces over time. I have my cereal container set for a one minute dose daily, and it lasts ~2 days over three weeks... I have it fairly well blacked out to help prevent mold, until I buy some HCL (or try putting some Excel?) to keep it sterile of molds. Any one have any experience with Flourish or TMG staying mold free without additives? Thanks, bob


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Using Flourish/Flourish Iron solutions I had always growth in my container, pump, and tubing. After a while, the stuff in the tubing would get loose and eventually block the injection hole. 

Excel did not help, at least in concentrations that I used.

Dosing full strength Flourish works better for me.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> .
> 
> Dosing full strength Flourish works better for me.


And that is with the timer/liquid doser setup in your other thread? I'm curious because Donald Byrd and Rosie Hawks said they didn't have a problem, but that was a while ago?


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Yes, that's it. In this post I made a little drawing of how I have it set up. Only drawback is that P would need to be done separately.


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## Betowess (Dec 9, 2004)

Wasserpest said:


> Using Flourish/Flourish Iron solutions I had always growth in my container, pump, and tubing. After a while, the stuff in the tubing would get loose and eventually block the injection hole.
> 
> Excel did not help, at least in concentrations that I used.
> 
> Dosing full strength Flourish works better for me.


Just curious, did you ever try HCL? Because I've heard it stops mold in CSM+B?


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## Martin (Jan 15, 2005)

An aquaintance of mine uses a bit of Nitric acid(HNO3) to prevent P & Iron messing with eachother.


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## vidiots (Jun 17, 2006)

I think reguardless of the form of concentrated Iron in liquid form you use you are probably going to get atleast a yellowish staining of your reservoir or bottle over time, and possibly a buildup of of some sediment overtime in your reservior and plumbing.

I think the only way to completely avoid that would be dry dosing your FE & traces.

Even the bottles of flourish get crusty around the rim eventally.


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## calihawker (Sep 18, 2006)

I can see this threads been inactive for a while but after reading it several times I'm ready to build my autodosing system and I have an idea that has not been discussed. I have a large tank (300 gallons) and I want to mix enough for at least 4 weeks. My idea is to use a 5 gallon cornelius keg (soda keg we use for brewing) and hook up a regulator with a solenoid controlled by a timer. The advantage of having a completely sealed container is that I can push the liquid out with an inert gas (nitrogen). The question is, when mixing and storing the solution, what effect does oxygen have on the degradation/mold growth and can that be countered by purging the container of oxygen?

I'll be using the keg idea regardless as I have a large tank to dose.

Steve


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Looks like you are going to set up a very expensive system, when you can do the same with a cheap pump and a regular 5gal bucket. Unless you have those parts laying around anyway. The pump also mixes up the solution each time it doses.

I can't answer your question wrt the oxygen, but I noticed that when I only mix KNO3, K2SO4 and maybe MgSO4 I can go for 4 weeks without mold growing or strange smells developing.


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## calihawker (Sep 18, 2006)

The funny thing is, it would be more expensive if I had to buy a couple pumps. I have corny kegs, gas cylinders and regulators up the wazoo from years of brewing.
I did read your posts on leaving out the KH2P04 and I figured worst case I mix them seperate and dose from 2 containers.
I don't recall reading anywhere that the chemicals seperate and require constant mixing. That would be an issue with the setup I'm planning.

Thanks a lot for these awesome threads. 

Steve


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## Sluuuder (Feb 7, 2012)

Where do you buy the water pump for $15? I'm looking on ebay and none of them have outlet hookups. Will I have to rig it with some positive and negative wire or something? Could someone send me a link of where to buy the pump for it? thanks!!!


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## shift (Jan 7, 2013)

http://fishtankprojects.com/diy-aquarium-projects/arduino-controlled-dosing-pumps.html


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## Sluuuder (Feb 7, 2012)

shift said:


> http://fishtankprojects.com/diy-aquarium-projects/arduino-controlled-dosing-pumps.html


Okay so its alot more than just the $15 for the water pump? Supposedly on the front page it says soemthing about just needing a water pump.


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## Lamar (Mar 12, 2009)

The original post is almost 8 years old.


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## shift (Jan 7, 2013)

I have seen cheap ones that use a motor to squeeze down the pump on bottles but that isn't very consistent. 
Dousing pumps are 15-20 on the interwebs and is really the most expensive part. It will prob cost 50-80 for a 1-3 pump system in the end


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## Sluuuder (Feb 7, 2012)

Oh okay! Hmm, well guess ill have to hold off on getting an automated one then. Thanks for the help!!!


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