# Help me set up an auto prime for my siphon (sump) ***edit 11/5/11 PVC overflow***



## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

EDIT:

mis read the question.. you just want to prime... :\

in the event of a powerfailure, do you lose prime? what happens? when equalibrium is held, u shouldnt have any water movement from the sump... how is the air bubble getting reintroduced into your inlet?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

In the second photo is that the end of the siphon tube? Normally a siphon tube would have the opening facing up, not down.


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> EDIT:
> 
> mis read the question.. you just want to prime... :\
> 
> in the event of a powerfailure, do you lose prime? what happens? when equalibrium is held, u shouldnt have any water movement from the sump... how is the air bubble getting reintroduced into your inlet?


I don't lose prime in a power failure, once the water reaches the bottom of the siphon it stops the flow. once power comes back on my pump will begin returning the water to the main tank but my siphon won't prime itself. I have to uncap the hose and suck for a second to restart. 



Hoppy said:


> In the second photo is that the end of the siphon tube? Normally a siphon tube would have the opening facing up, not down.


 Yes it is. I didn't fully understand how to run all the piping when I set this up and had a buddy come over and help me and this is how it was built. I was intending to build a "u" shape but that's not what he did. 

I'm really trying to keep from having to rebuild the siphon, but I'm starting to think thats the only way I am going to get rid of this problem.


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

Connect a aqua lifter pump to evacuate the upper elbow on your siphon, and let it run all the time. Send its output where ever is most convenient, back to the tank, into the sump, back into the drain line farther along -- wherever you like. 

As long as your return doesn't flood the tank before the aqua lifter pump can evacuate the air and restart the siphon, you should be fine.

Have a look here (~55 seconds in, and again with more detail at ~3:35) to see an example of how that should work.


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

NatCh said:


> Connect a aqua lifter pump to evacuate the upper elbow on your siphon, and let it run all the time. Send its output where ever is most convenient, back to the tank, into the sump, back into the drain line farther along -- wherever you like.
> 
> As long as your return doesn't flood the tank before the aqua lifter pump can evacuate the air and restart the siphon, you should be fine.
> 
> Have a look here (~55 seconds in, and again with more detail at ~3:35) to see an example of how that should work.


I have actually been looking for that aqua lift pump for the last hour on google. Thank you. I was almost ready to say the hell with it and just build/buy a HOB overflow. The main reason for not wanting one is I would have to move the tank a little further away from the wall.
(filled 125g+stand+29g sump=hernia)


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## jcgd (Feb 18, 2004)

What would happen if you run the airline you suck through down to your return pump inlet with a venturi?

How do you set the water level with your setup? Is there a box on the back of the tank that the intake runs into?


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## NatCh (Feb 23, 2011)

jcgd said:


> What would happen if you run the airline you suck through down to your return pump inlet with a venturi?


Oooo. Clever.


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

jcgd said:


> What would happen if you run the airline you suck through down to your return pump inlet with a *venturi*?


What is a venturi?




jcgd said:


> How do you set the water level with your setup? Is there a box on the back of the tank that the intake runs into?


I have a gate valve. 

My sump


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Your siphon needs to be re configured as an overflow. That way it will never lose a siphon, and you wont overflow your tank in the even of an outtage. I would get on that very quickly before something happens! google diy pvc overflow and youll find lots of info

Matt


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

jmrmotorhead said:


> Your siphon needs to be re configured as an overflow. That way it will never lose a siphon, and you wont overflow your tank in the even of an outtage. I would get on that very quickly before something happens! google diy pvc overflow and youll find lots of info
> 
> Matt


 There's no fear of an overflow in the even of a power outage. I've already tested that by unplugging the pump and seeing how high it goes in the main tank, and I've created siphon with no pump. Both tanks will fill but stop short of overflowing either.

I'm really leaning towards the lift pump mentioned earlier as all I need is a little suction to get things going again. I'm curious as to what the venturi is.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Ok= but you will burn out your pump. There is no need to buy a lift pump though. Everyone who uses a sump runs some sort of an overflow, be it a manufactured overflow box, or a pvc one. They are very easy to make, and will keep a siphon in the even on a power outage. I think people here think that you are having issues with air becoming trapped in said DIY overflow and are suggesting these ways to keep that from happening. It would not be wise to use these suggestions as the only method of keeping a siphon. You would also be able to raise your tank level if done correctly.

watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DFk4bnIxEg


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

I can't watch videos at work, I'll check it out tonight.
How will the pump burn out. The siphon works fine right now, now air trapped. My only concern is in the even of a power outage it won't start itself back up. And the water level has since been taken care of. That pic was taken as I was setting up and regulating the inlet and return.
Not trying to be ignorant, just not completely understanding. I'm open to suggestions. I might even go ahead with an overflow. I'd just like to learn as much as I can. 


Do you have any links to good write ups on DIY overflow? The only ones I have found seem to be centered around drilled tanks.
This is also good experience for me as I will be redoing my 55g into a paliduriam soon and will probably build a sump for that as well.


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## Naekuh (Oct 19, 2011)

jcgd said:


> What would happen if you run the airline you suck through down to your return pump inlet with a venturi?
> 
> How do you set the water level with your setup? Is there a box on the back of the tank that the intake runs into?


This is an epic solution!

never thought about this..



SlammedDC2 said:


> What is a venturi?


in short, on some powerheads, you notice how u can attach an airline hose to the top of the outlet and have it blow bubbles out?
connect that to your vacumn syphon instead... 









Then power head turns on, the air inside the syphon will be pulled because of the venturi and you will get your autoprime... 

once all the air is pulled, it will just pull water from there.
You can put in a small ball valve to close it once the air is pulled and u see no more air being pushed out by powerhead.

In short.. power head forces water in -> direction.
Current of water causes vacumn inside that tube which draws air. 
If that tube is tied to your syphon, it will draw the air inside syphon. 
Once syphon is air free, the power head has no more air to draw from that line and will draw water from syphon. 
Close off syphon port, or you will get dirty water being pulled from overflow and spat out though powerhead.


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

Naekuh said:


> This is an epic solution!
> 
> never thought about this..
> 
> ...


My son has one of those in his tank....for now. Thank you.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

SlammedDC2 said:


> I can't watch videos at work, I'll check it out tonight.
> How will the pump burn out. The siphon works fine right now, now air trapped. My only concern is in the even of a power outage it won't start itself back up. And the water level has since been taken care of. That pic was taken as I was setting up and regulating the inlet and return.
> Not trying to be ignorant, just not completely understanding. I'm open to suggestions. I might even go ahead with an overflow. I'd just like to learn as much as I can.
> 
> ...


When you get home check out the video, it will show how these pvc overflows work, and how they keep the water from draining in the event of a power outage. Basically it works as an on demand drain, when your sump-pump is on, the extra water being pumped into the tank will raise the level, and the overflow will drain the water only as fast as the pump puts it in, no slower, no faster. This creates a steady water line in the tank, and the sump. Really is the best way to go. I'll try to scrounge up some articles for you to read while at work, that way you can see what I'm blabbing about. And as far as the pump goes, when the power goes out, and returns on, the pump will drain the sump into the main tank correct? then the pump will sit there trying to pump air and cavitate. this would burn it out if left for a prolonged amount of time. Plus your filter media would dry out, leading to a die off of good bacteria

I'm sorry if I put you off in my earlier posts, I didnt mean to put you down! Just trying to help you get the best possible solution. 
Matt


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

jmrmotorhead said:


> When you get home check out the video, it will show how these pvc overflows work, and how they keep the water from draining in the event of a power outage. Basically it works as an on demand drain, when your sump-pump is on, the extra water being pumped into the tank will raise the level, and the overflow will drain the water only as fast as the pump puts it in, no slower, no faster. This creates a steady water line in the tank, and the sump. Really is the best way to go. I'll try to scrounge up some articles for you to read while at work, that way you can see what I'm blabbing about. And as far as the pump goes, when the power goes out, and returns on, the pump will drain the sump into the main tank correct? then the pump will sit there trying to pump air and cavitate. this would burn it out if left for a prolonged amount of time. Plus your filter media would dry out, leading to a die off of good bacteria
> 
> I'm sorry if I put you off in my earlier posts, I didnt mean to put you down! Just trying to help you get the best possible solution.
> Matt


No your good man, didn't think you were putting me down, I'm just not able to grasp what I think should be pretty easy to understand. (sometimes the simpliest things confuse me, and harder to grasp things come natural)

Yes in the event of a power failure the pump will drain the 4th chamber of water. The media will remain submerged as there are 3 other chambers that will hold water. They have to overflow from the inlet. If you look at the picture of the sump, the first chamber (filter floss) is where the drain is. Water comes in at the bottom of the sump and flows up through and over to the loofahs which flow down under the next divider and up through the ceramic rings. But yes in the event of a power failure the pump will dump all the water back in the main tank. I've already run through both options of a power outage. 
If you unplug the pump the tank will drain to the top of the sump before the siphon starts sucking air because the water level has dropped. Then when power comes back on the pump will return the water but theres not enough at it's disposal to overflow the main tank.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Ok, thats good, however using an overflow like the one I'm attempting to explain would eliminate the need to re prime the system. 
Check this out, and let me know if you understand what its trying to show. If not I'll do my best to explain it 

http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/f...9465-DIY-Overflow-101-The-Mysteries-Explained


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

I'll check it out tonight. Thanks for all the help.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

No problem- let me know if you have any questions


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

Okay so y'all talked me into the DIY PVC overflow. I found yet another leak last night and decided that was a perfect opportunity to just go ahead and build the overflow since the tank was coming away from the wall. 
Anyway I built one like the ones mentioned above in youtube. Well I can't seem to get this primed. 
The check valve is in the right way, I suck on the hose/check valve to prime it, it starts to overflow as long as I am sucking. Once I stop the water backs back up the overflow and back into the tank. What am I missing? 
I am so tired of draining this tank and pulling it away from the wall. And at this rate the tank is never going to cycle. Please help me get this thing going so I can enjoy it vs wanting to blow it up.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Hmm ok, any chance you could post a picture of the finished overflow? If there anyway there is a leak around the check-valve? 

Is it all hooked up to your sump and installed?

Just checking, but the water level is over the intake when it is stopping correct? If working correctly it will stop siphoning when the water level in the tank gets below the inlet, then it will automaticaly restart when your sump pump brings the level back above.

A picture would really help me understand your situation but if not a link to one that looks exactly like yours would help since there are a few different versions. I certainly understand your frustration though. I hope we get this solved for you so you can get cycling!


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

I didn't think to take pictures before mounting it and moving the tank back against the wall. I will try to post some pics later after the wife gets home with the camera cord. For now this is what I based my build on except the "street elbows" I used regular elbows with a piece of pipe to join in. 

Yes it is all hooked up to the sump and installed.

Yes once the water level goes over the overflow I suck on the check valve while covering (and tried uncovered) the hole in the air break cap. The water starts to go down the pipe but once I stop sucking the water starts to rise back up the overflow into the tank. 

The check valve is cemented into the elbow like in the video. I will probably pull it out as they can malfunction and replace it with a straight through plug. I will then attach a hose to it the attach the check valve to the end of the hose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65yVr7DiDls&feature=fvsr


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Ok everything sounds good from what your explaining. One thing I thought of though- are the bottom loops at the same height? The bottom loop inside the tank, and the bottom one outside (below the T) should be at the same height. The other thing I thought of is maybe there isn't enough tubing between the outer lower loop and the tee, causing the air to suck back up and through during the transition between siphoning and resting.

Matt


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

Yes the bottom loops are the same. What do you mean by not enough tubing? you mean between the elbows?


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

I mean above the outside bottom loop. when it goes vertical again, there may not be enough length until the T where the water is pulled out and down to the sump. the siphon may break there if its too close to the elbows. Just an idea I'm not positive on that. 

I really wish I could help you more, but I'm at a loss of ideas. Maybe a picture of yours would help, I know that's a pain though with the tank pushed against a wall.

Matt


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

Okay so I went to Orielly's and picked up some 2 part epoxy. I pulled the check valve out and epoxy'd a fitting in place. put a hose on the fitting and a new check valve on the hose. I primed it and got it going....for about 3 minutes. All of a sudden I notice the top glass is becoming more visable from underneath. The overflow stopped and I couldn't get it to restart. I'm so frustrated. I guess I'm tired of the DIY for now. I'm looking at ordering this on Monday: http://www.aquariumguys.com/reef-oc...?gdftrk=gdfV2226_a_7c1209_a_7c7276_a_7c245573

What do you guys think of this. I can't find much on it for reviews. I found one bad and one good. Or if anyone has another option for a buy it somewhere else and it better freaking work overflow I am all ears.


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## SlammedDC2 (Jun 4, 2011)

From what I've read on these overflow boxes they recommend you use an aqua lifter pump to make sure there is no overflow in the event of a power failure. Looks like I could have left the original idea. Oh well to little to late.

I am open to all suggestions and thank you for all the help thus far.


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## jmrmotorhead (Sep 27, 2011)

Sorry I haven't gotten back to you in a few days, got really busy.

Just in case, try plugging the check valve tube after you get it going. I wonder if the valves are back feeding a bit.. maybe there isn't enough suction to get the valve sealed properly. when I made mine i didn't use a valve, just submerged the whole thing to prime it, then lifted it out and set it over the edge of the tank. Did that once in a while to purge any air that accumulated.


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