# Plants turning yellow and swords have holes



## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

After reading your post, I am having second thoughts about experimenting with mineralized topsoil. As I have never experienced anything like that I can only speculate and hope more experienced folks who have undergone similar issues will chime in.

It almost sounds like your substrate may have compacted and may be going anaerobic and roots may be negatively effected by leading to the collapse in growth. If this is the case and hopefully I am mistaken and it is not, the only way to remedy this is to replace the substrate and salvage what you can. You can poke the substrate with the tip of a coat hanger to help oxygenate it, but if this causes the release of hydrogen sulphite gas, it could kill fish so I am reluctant to suggest this. Otherwise, your tank has major nutrient deficiencies. And this could be related to anaerobic conditions. If you roots are growing poorly and you are not dosing water column ferts which you would not do with minearlized topsoil, it would stand to reason that plants would or could not uptake nutrients that they need to keep growing well. Your initial spurt in growth may have been due to the plants using up built up reserves of nutrients to fluorish. Yellowing of leaves often signals a potassium deficiency. Without knowing which of these could be your problem, I am reluctant to advise you to start dosing anything as it could make things worse and if you start dosing you will have to coordinate it with sufficient lighting and c02 to get maximum benefit.

Again, take my advice with a grain of salt as I am only speculating here.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks for the reply, Homer; although it doesn't sound too promising. Yikes!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

I have always doubted that mineralized topsoil would work with higher light and no fertilizing. I suspect your fast initial growth was using leached nutrients in the water, so now you are starving the plants. Why not try dosing the tank per the EI fertilizing method?

I think you have too much light to do without CO2, also. But, that is just a guess. Sword plants are very easy to grow and they will quickly fill up the tank with massive leaves and lots of new plants on runners if they are well fertilized. That suggests a nutrient shortage too.


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

I see a few problems that make it hard to nail down exactly what is going on...Please don't take this the wrong way.
Locally collected wood, that you don't know what was growing on or in it.
and river silt...that also may have nasty stuff in it...like pollutants etc.
I think it's important to stick with the Mineralized Soil "recipe", because there are some variables that can occur along the way with the soil, and IMO the less variables to control in an aquarium, the easier it will be to have success.

Don't poke holes into it...you will release the soil into the water column then you will have more problems. 
I seem to remember that with mineralized soil you will get an initial burst of nutrients in the water, but it takes a bit for the plants to be able to access the nutrients in mineralized soil initially, remember you sort of locked the nutrients under the sand, its going to take some time for the roots to get to it depending on how deep you planted your plants.
Your tank is 150 gallons and is very deep. You are at about 1 wpg. If we are going to follow that rule, I would say you may not have enough light. CO2 usually is added with higher light levels.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I've accidentally poked holes into the water column many times the first 3 days dealing with plants that floated up. Then I bought some super-duper long plastic tweezer thingies and no more mud release. I considered Hoppy's suggestion prior to writing.

Should I take the stumps back out? The fish are fine. I would have thought the stumps would wipe out the fish if they were toxic... or the silt, too. No? Plants susceptible to things that fish are not?


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

The stumps had a white fungus like material growing on them? I have had that on new driftwood I have purchased and it does go away on its own. 
My point was that by adding variables to the equation its harder to pinpoint what is going on. 
Am I right that you have a 150 gal. tank? I still think you may be lacking light...
I'm not sure I would do anything for awhile though, the tank is only a week old, see what happens. Don't make sweeping or drastic changes. You may loose some plants. 
If it were my tank I'd probably not do anything for a bit and just monitor the tank and pull out dead plant matter. Keep testing your water too.
Maybe Hoppy will chime on the dosing again, I don't know though, if I understand the mineralized soil idea, you don't need to dose anything other than the occasional Potassium.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, it looked like white fungus. Maybe I didn't get all the cholorine off them even though I rinsed and rinsed. I'd think the chlorine would have wiped out the angels, though. I'm going to add some more prime, just in case. I'm now wishing I'd just left those darned stumps out. They don't look too hot anyway.

Now I've made another mess. While waiting for you guys to respond, I put in mineralized soil in a 20 gallon tank to move my plants to it in case I needed to get them out of there. When I added the clay soil (from my yard that has been mineralizing), I don't think I added enough because I have a mud bomb going in that tank. LOL That one is going to have to be taken back down.  You'd think I'd know by now not to react in panic.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Yes, Coltonorr, the tank is 150, but I have the lights close to the top (2.5 inches) and didn't fill the tank to the top (2 inches). There is 20 inches from top of the substrate to the top of the water on one side and 22 inches on the other. I have my substrate higher due to my son throwing in a pleco that he thought I wouldn't mind that he hates that went under the substrate and churned it all up. I had to recap to cover the mud. Since I have too much substrate, Hoppy may be right that it has compacted. I have 4-6 inches of soil total including the bottom grate, 1 to 1/4 inches of soil, 2.5 to 4.5 inches of cap.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I have been reading cases where people set up natural planted tanks with more than a 1/4" layer who experienced poor growth and compacting of the substrate. Deep caps were not the issue in such cases. Perhaps the same thing applies to mineralized topsoil substrates. I asked AaronT about this and he suggested 1/2" layer of mineralized topsoil as the best for the mineralized topsoil layer.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Oh boy. That might be my problem then. You have no idea how much I shudder at the thought of tearing down that tank... especially since I have no more soil mineralizing and no money to go buy a nutrient-rich substrate. I could go get river silt, but I think I read on Tom Barr's site that it only lasts 6 months to 2 years. :/ This is a big, darned tank to have to keep redoing.

If I do have to redo it due to my plants continuing to go downhill, how much cap should I put? Should I put more to try to get the plants closer to the lights or stick with the 1 to 3 inches as per AaronT?


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

michu said:


> Oh boy. That might be my problem then. You have no idea how much I shudder at the thought of tearing down that tank... especially since I have no more soil mineralizing and no money to go buy a nutrient-rich substrate. I could go get river silt, but I think I read on Tom Barr's site that it only lasts 6 months to 2 years. :/ This is a big, darned tank to have to keep redoing.
> 
> If I do have to redo it due to my plants continuing to go downhill, how much cap should I put? Should I put more to try to get the plants closer to the lights or stick with the 1 to 3 inches as per AaronT?


The cap is not a problem and even SCMurphy indicates that a deep cap within reason should not cause issues. I think it is the bottom or first layer of soil if over 1/2" could cause problems, but even this is not without controversy. That is why it is hard to say for sure if this is even the problem. Normally when you have deep rooting plants like swords and cryptocornes it is stated that the rooting action itself causes the release of oxygen into the substrate and this should prevent compacting.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Should I stick the swords further down into the CQ? I watched a video that I found the link on here that said to cut off the roots to 1.5 inches and stick the sword in the gravel which is what I did. It had nice long roots that I could have got down to the soil if I hadn't cut them off. Or should I just be patient and hope the sword grows roots deeply before it croaks? Maybe stick a fert tab underneath them?


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

michu, 
clipping the roots should stimulate growth of more roots, it "shocks" the plant. don't add a root tab...the point of the mineralized soil is the soil provides plenty of nutrients for the plant...so much nutrients in fact that if you stir it up and get it in the water column you can expect major green water and other algae problems...
I think you are heading toward disaster...Slow down. 
I too think you may have a little too much mineralized soil substrate, but don't over react. Again the tank is just over a week old...and again, I would let the tank run for a month to 6 weeks before I even attempted to make a small change.
How long are your lights running for?
Are you dosing anything? 
don't do anything drastic...let it ride...the tank is a week old.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Yep, slow down. best advise I have seen. Leave it alone. perhaps dose a weee bit of K, but other then that....get your hands out of the water.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

LOL Okay guys, I'll let her ride and try not to keep checking it every few minutes. 

I haven't put any nutrients in and I'm leaving the lights running for 12 hours.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

BTW, the white fungus is back already. 24 hours. LOL All those hours of scrubbing and cleaning... cuts on my hands... the bottle of bleach... wasted. You guys are right... just let her die if she's going to die. I expected 90% of the plants to die in the beginning, but when I saw all that new growth, my hopes changed. Tremendously.


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

gmccreedy said:


> perhaps dose a weee bit of K


I thought the same thing. Holes in leaves and yellowing. Classic sign of K deficiency.

I agree with what some of the others have said as well as some of the information you have posted yourself. The plants having good growth and then nose diving is a good sign that some of the nutrient levels are low based on your setup. You see, when you first set everything up, you probably had sufficient nutrients to keep things running optimally. Then the nutrients were sucked up by your plants and has not recovered yet since you aren't adding anything (I am totally guessing here )

What is your fertilizaton like? 12 hr photo period? Might be a tad high. What about co2?

How long has this setup been running? 

Your paragraph related to your Sword demise sounds like a classic example of what happens to a Sword when it is dumped into a high tech tank that isn't fully set up as high tech. Running 6 sets of HO T5s, I thought, would have pushed you into the high tech realm where you need a steady addition of CO2, regular fertilization (some method), and probably a lower photo period. Either I might have missed something or maybe you haven't fully stated the parameters of your setup.

I am not feeling well either, so it could be a case of me being in "La la land". :confused1:


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

No fertilization... it's mineralized soil; thus the plants get their nutrients from the soil. 

No CO2

Yes, there are 6 lights, but they are only 1/3 of the length of the tank; so it's actually the same as 2 X 84 lwattage lights across a 6 foot tank... if that makes any sense.

Setup has only been running a little over a week. 8 days to be exact.

I apologize for forgetting to mention NO CO2 Low Tech tank.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

If your plants are undergoing the equivalent of "transplant shock," then waiting it out may be a good idea. But it still begs the question of what would be considered a reasonable wait time for plants to rebound. How bad do things have to get before they get better? Anyone??


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I think the soil is compacting/ed. I am getting a lot of large bubbles if the tank jiggles if I stomp on the floor.

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/...9997-mineralized-soil-bubbles.html#post454885


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I just looked at the substrate that can be seen through the side of the glass. Lots of bubbles have formed. When I poke the CQ, the bubbles release to the top.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Update on the yellow situation. I dosed with 1/4 tsp of potash (since that's what I had handy). The plants have greened up. Those that have the lacy-veined look such as the sword prior to getting holes appear to be greener, less lacy, and possibly thickening, but this may be my imagination. Everything looks much better. They don't look fabulous, but they no longer look as if they're knocking on death's door.

One weed I have that I can't identify has grown 5 inches (husband says 7, but there's no way it could be that much) in the last two days. It is now an inch from the top of the water. I have several of these and they've all grown at least 2-3 inches the last few days, but the super-grower is planted in a different spot that gets more light. I've looked through the plants here in the forum to see what it is... can't find it. It has to be a beginner plant that probably everyone starts out with... not much to look at in it's current state since it's leggy. My wisteria is growing well; thus the reason I assume the mystery plant to be a beginner plant as well. These two weren't affected too much by the yellow syndrome.

Crypt spiralis looks much better... no more melt and color looks right (I think). Rotalas have new growth where it looked like they were croaking just three days ago. Some plants have melted, but not many. The majority look much, much better.

On another note, the plants that had GSA... it has receded. Those that had (what I think to be) GHA look the same as before.

Now the problem that is worrying me is that the water smells. It is smelling up the house. When I go downstairs, I can immediately smell it. When I smell above the water, it is strong. I can't decide if it is sulfur or possibly a smell given off by the driftwood? My husband says it smells like wet plants (whatever those smell like) and not like sulfur. Is there anything else in a planted tank that could be giving off such an odor? It doesn't smell like rotten eggs.. more of a strange chemical smell to me.

I have to leave tomorrow and will not be back in the state until Monday night. I have someone who will be here to feed the fish, but I'm worried. Any suggestions as to what I should/could do to head off disaster until I return or should I just cross my fingers and hope everything isn't dead when I return? I plan to poke the soil before I leave for the airport tomorrow. I have a sump/trickle underneath that I periodically use as a water reservoir for adding water and tank leveling that I could run for the five days that might air out whatever is in the water column that is stinking so badly? I'm afraid it would kill my plants to run it for five days or would it hurt anything since it's a low light tank? I would leave the eheim running as well as a backup in the event of a sump failure.

I think I already know the answer.... poke the soil and pray until I get back.


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## Coltonorr (Mar 12, 2008)

I think it could be the driftwood.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Does it smell like "wet dog"(lol, the way a dog smells after it ends up soaked due to a heavy rainfall or bath). Sorry, for a lack of better word this is the closest I can describe it as. If so, I would not worry about it. In My Experience when I do a major trim of plants in my 40 gallon, a lot of them give off this "wet dog" smell. I have also smelled this before when I have gone to my local fish store where there were plants in a tank and they were in the midst of a water change. I have experienced this for over a year now. The plants continue to grow well in the tank and the fish remain healthy with no fish deaths to date. I suspect that smell is probably from any beneficial bacteria that have settled on the plants that are being disturbed by the trimming and removal of plants. In your case, it may be good as it could be a sign that the tank is beginning to stabilize.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Oh thank you guys! That makes me feel so much better. It's rather disconcerting to have a majorly stinky house, though. LOL The smell reminds me of that awful smell in the fertilizer section of hardware stores.


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## x2h (Dec 23, 2008)

last time i had the same symptom on my swords, as soon as I started dosing fert (NPKS) the symptom goes away.


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## leafshapedheart (Feb 23, 2009)

Hello..,

I would like to second that the "mould" on the log could be normal. I added a piece of store-bought Mopani driftwood to one of my tanks, and the white mould grew on it at an astounding rate to a height of about an inch. Every time I took it out (and yes, it did smell, too) and rinsed it, scrubbed it with salt, the whole nine yards, within a few hours it would be back. There were even some things growing on it that looked like little mushrooms. I was a little worried about this, but after asking around, I learned it was normal. Someone told me to consider it my wood cycling. In all fairness, you just set this tank up. The "mould" on my log, and the cycle of the tank seemed to be connected. I think it has something to do with the balance of bacteria in your tank. I have added wood to cycled tanks before, and this did not occur. Sure enough, as soon as the tank's bacteria settled in, it went away. It took about 2 months. Yes, it is ugly, but if you are patient, it should go away. If you think you may not have rinsed it properly, you can take it out and soak it for a few weeks, changing the water every couple of days. As far as your other problems, I'm sorry, but I don't have much else to offer. I'm just getting started learning about how to grow plants, too. I have spent months stuffing myself with knowlege about fish, and now I'm trying to change gears. I can empathise with having to aquascape on a budget. But I think that only serves to make us more resourceful!  Hope you get everything worked out!

leafshapedheart


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

We got caught up in the east coast snow having our return flights cancelled. We didn't get out of Houston until yesterday afternoon. The first thing I did after walking in the door was head straight to my tank filled with dread. Much to my surprise, my plants had grown, mold was gone, as was the stink. The plants that grew so much after adding the Muriate of Potash had gone wild. They grew to the top and were laying across the top! Since this is a tall tank and they're planted on the deeper end of the tank, I was shocked to see so much growth. I spent the morning chopping them up and replanting. At this rate, I will soon have a full tank of this weed. LOL I did lose 3 juvie angels, but the plants made it through. Yea!

Thanks so much for all of your input. You guys are just wonderful.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

cool news.. You'll run into this problem down the road again... Your tank sounds like it's limited on K, and probably CO2. 

Maybe your plants are growing too fast as well. You might want to lower your light wattage or photo period. Or add K & CO2 on a consistent basis.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I only have 1 watt per gallon, but they're HO, so... I dunno what I have to be honest. I do plan to add CO2 and more lights if needed when my husband and I either get new jobs (he was laid off and I shut down my biz) or a new biz started to get some $$. LOL I hate having to put my tank on hold, but at least I know it will make it until then. I thought about lining up 20 bottles of DIY CO2, but doubt that will work on 150 gallon tank. 

I am doing weekly dosings of the Potash for now until I run into more problems, at which point I will be begging you guys for more advice. This forum, and you guys, are just wonderful. Thanks so much.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

michu said:


> Yesterday, I pulled the sword (the one plant I know) and removed all the icky leaves and replaced. The remaining leaves are now turning yellow on the ends. Many of the other plants are turning yellow. All the new growth has come to a standstill. No more beautiful light green on most of the plants. I do have some kind of leggy plant that is growing. My (what I think to be a Val... long thinnish leaves that look twisty.... is holding its own.


Could we some pictures of this problem?


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks, Hilde. The problem has gone, solved by a little K and a good leaving alone. I intend to take pics of the tank after I get a suitable camera. Thanks.


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