# HELP- what's happening to my java fern?!



## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Your Java fern*

_Hello vespers. Can you tell me how you have your fern planted? It should be attached to something porous like lava rock or a piece of driftwood._

_If you're dosing CO2 that could be a problem in such a small tank. You could be overdosing._

_This looks like a fertilizer issue to me._

_B_


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

BBradbury said:


> _Hello vespers. Can you tell me how you have your fern planted? It should be attached to something porous like lava rock or a piece of driftwood._
> 
> _If you're dosing CO2 that could be a problem in such a small tank. You could be overdosing._
> 
> ...


i have it tied to a piece of driftwood and i'm dosing EI. my other plants are all fine and java fern is the easiest one i have in there. i suppose it could be co2, my drop checker is green.

the tank temp also shot up to 78-79 from 74-75 because we had a hot spell... idk if that could be it..


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Java fern*

_OK. You've got the fern planted correctly, so the next thing is to change the water. I'd do a 25 to 30 percent water change and back off on the ferts for a couple of days to see how the plants respond._

_I don't think the temp change in the tank is the problem. Most tropical plants come from warm water anyway._

_B _


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

BBradbury said:


> _OK. You've got the fern planted correctly, so the next thing is to change the water. I'd do a 25 to 30 percent water change and back off on the ferts for a couple of days to see how the plants respond._
> 
> _I don't think the temp change in the tank is the problem. Most tropical plants come from warm water anyway._
> 
> _B _


i just did my water change today, so i'll ease off the ferts for the next few days. it just seems strange because i have had them for about 2 and a half months and i haven't varied my dosing in that time... i guess i'll ease off the ferts for the next few days.

should i half the dose or just stop completely?


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi vespers,

I'm glad that you did not plant the rhizomes in the substrate but did attach them to hardscape items in your aquarium like driftwood or stones. Java Ferns will die if the rhizome is buried. 

The two cultivars of Java Fern that I have in one of my tanks will periodically do a "melt" if I get lazy on my fertilizer dosing. Typically the problem will start in one area where the leaves will develop dark areas where the chlorophyll (green area) has disappeared and all that is left is the dead vein structure. In a matter of a few days the green portion of the leaf will die completely leaving just the dead vein structure. The problem seems to spread along the rhizome attacking additional leaves which at first lead me to think it was some sort of disease that was spreading through contact.

I spent a lot of time trying to discover the cause of the condition but have not found an definite answer. I do have a suspicion that it is a nutrient problem. The reason I say that is the condition only happens in one of my tanks; another aquarium with the same Java Ferns (which came from the same plants) does not experience this problem. Both tanks have equivalent equipment and are fertilized identically. The difference between the two tanks is in one my Java Ferns are growing on driftwood and in the other the Java Ferns are growing on stones. In the tank with the driftwood my Java Ferns experience the problem; in the aquarium with the stones no problems. The stones are a type of limestone and do effect my water chemistry. In the "driftwood tank" KH of water is 0.5 dKH and the GH is 9.0 dGH. In the "stone tank" the KH is 4.0 and the GH is 10.0 dGH.

The bottom line is we have really soft water where I live in Seattle; typically the water comes out of the faucet 0.5 dKH / 4.0 dGH. I found that to correct the "melting" problem I need to maintain my EI fertilizer dosing (with extra iron, and Flourish Comprehensive) and add a little Baking Soda to raise the KH to at least 2.0 dKH and Seachem Equilibrium (for calcium, magnesium, and other micros) to raise the GH to about 5.0 - 6.0 dGH.

If you are fertilizing properly, and the Java Ferns do not recover in a couple of weeks, you may want to look into deficiency possibilities.


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

i wondered if it was some kind of disease as it happened so fast and my other plants seem to be doing well (and java fern isn't all that demanding...)

so should i decrease my dosing or increase it and add extra iron? i use flourish as my micro nutrients. 

thanks for the help! i appreciate it a lot. nothing like this has ever happened


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi vespers,

All I can tell you is what I have discovered......it really doesn't matter! I have tried increasing my dosing, decreasing my dosing, and leaving everything the same with basically identical results. The leaves die; I remove them as they die to minimize debris and increasing organics in the water; the leaves grow back in a few weeks. I have had literally all of the leaves die resulting in just the "bald" rhizome and new growth will begin in a couple of weeks and after a couple of months you can't tell anything ever happened. If you figure it out I would be interested in your findings!


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## BBradbury (Nov 8, 2010)

*Your Java fern*



vespers_ said:


> i just did my water change today, so i'll ease off the ferts for the next few days. it just seems strange because i have had them for about 2 and a half months and i haven't varied my dosing in that time... i guess i'll ease off the ferts for the next few days.
> 
> should i half the dose or just stop completely?


_Hello again. Drastic changes will likely get drastic results. So, I'd dose half the ferts, but maintain the same dosing schedule. I took another look at your plant and it really looks like the plant is being burnt by the ferts. _

_I think I read in your first post you have a 10 G tank, am I right???_

_If this is the case, then conditions in small tanks can change very quickly because there's not enough water to deal with water quality issues. In other words, a water quality problem in a 55 G tank wouldn't be as serious. _

_B_


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

okay, well i'll half my dosing for a week or so and see what happens. hopefully they'll recover and grow back.

thanks for the help!


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## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Could it possibly be a phosphate deficiency?


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

i suppose it could be. i dose EI for 10g-20g tanks. my source of phosphates is not the KH2PO4 though, it's MKP. it was the only thing i could find. not sure if it makes a huge difference and the plants have been fine since i got them. 

the concern is that if i cut down on the ferts, and it turns out to be a phosphate deficiency i could lose them all lol.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi vespers,

If it were me, I would do the 50% water change to "reset" the nutrient levels and dose at 50% your normal level for a couple of weeks. Watch for new leaf growth and you will know if you are on the right track.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I was having similar issues with my Philippine java ferns for a while until I started dosing Mg directly. I've never dosed Mg before and all my plants did fine but for some reason these ferns are different. They need the extra Mg to photosynthesize properly. Since I've been dosing Mg (Epsom salt), all my plants are lush and beautiful now.


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

speedie408 said:


> I was having similar issues with my Philippine java ferns for a while until I started dosing Mg directly. I've never dosed Mg before and all my plants did fine but for some reason these ferns are different. They need the extra Mg to photosynthesize properly. Since I've been dosing Mg (Epsom salt), all my plants are lush and beautiful now.


I've been doing the same for the last couple of weeks and I honestly think the whole tank is greener. It's like it's almost flourescent when the lights are turned down in the room. FWIW, I've also read that ferns use more PO4 but who knows if it's true. I already add 9ppm over the week so I don't think I need to worry.


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## vespers_ (May 6, 2011)

i just so happen to have a baggy of epsom salt left over from when i had african cichlids 

how much do you dose?

i'll try cutting my dosing of regular ferts to 50% and adding epsom salt then.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

Jeff5614 said:


> I've been doing the same for the last couple of weeks and I honestly think the whole tank is greener. It's like it's almost flourescent when the lights are turned down in the room. FWIW, I've also read that ferns use more PO4 but who knows if it's true. I already add 9ppm over the week so I don't think I need to worry.


jeef, speedie, vespers,

how are things with your javas? no more melting after dosing with epsom salts? how much are you dosing per 10 gallons?

thanks!


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## battered (Jan 1, 2012)

Did anyone ever find out what was wrong? It's happening to my java fern right now. I did recently add diy co2 though...anyone know what the problem is?


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## Jeff5614 (Dec 29, 2005)

Arv said:


> jeef, speedie, vespers,
> 
> how are things with your javas? no more melting after dosing with epsom salts? how much are you dosing per 10 gallons?
> 
> thanks!


I can't speak for anyone else but I had no trouble with my ferns before adding Mg. As I mentioned though, they did seem to look greener after I began adding it. Of course the new bulbs I installed could have been responsible too, lol, just kidding.

Since you've just seen the need to add CO2 maybe you have a bit too much light not to use CO2 and that's the cause of the trouble?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Adding Mg does not hurt anything but only benefit your plants. You'll start to notice a change within a week. Try it!


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## HighDesert (May 8, 2012)

I'm intrigued. I give Mg to my regular terrestrial ferns and they grow like weeds with it! I am going to have to try it with my Java ferns. I have a 10 gallon right now with the Java ferns in it. I have FRS and a small pleco in there. What would be the recommending dosing/frequency of dosing for a tank this size?

Thanks!


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm also experiencing the same problem with my ferns. Did the Epsom salts make any difference?


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

I added Epsom salts which has stopped the melt. Thanks folks.


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## sepehr (Oct 6, 2010)

How much are you supposed to add though?


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

I added two tsp to a 90 gallon aquarium after a weekly water change. Melt had stopped after two doses.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

sepehr said:


> How much are you supposed to add though?


http://calc.petalphile.com/

awesome claculator! Just remember that MG adds to your GH. I personally am going to add about 1 dgh every weekly water change and see how it goes. I'm adding 1/4tsp for my 38G right now but I'm going to up it a little bit to see if this prevents it. 
Thanks for all the info!


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

I had a floating java fern with this problem get stuck to a pretty healthy anubias and the leaf on the anubias that was touching the java fern started to show the same symptoms so I cut off the leaf immediately. looks like no further melting on the anubias. So I'm just curious why this particular aubias leaf started to melt and I can say that this particular leaf is not the oldest or youngest leaf on this anubias (and a couple more in the tank). If the changes in tank parameters (by adding Mg) or fetz amount can cause melting so why just this leaf that got in contact with the melting java fern? I saw a post where he dosed the tank of anti-biotics which slowed or stopped the melting from happening. Is it just a coincidence or is the java fern melt really assoicated with a disease and it infected the anubias leaf?


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

After now going through a few cycles of this occurring, I'm more convinced that its a natural process of the java fern mother plant disintegrating and enabling the young plantlets to propagate, rather than a specific magnesium deficiency.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

Bl00dworm said:


> After now going through a few cycles of this occurring, I'm more convinced that its a natural process of the java fern mother plant disintegrating and enabling the young plantlets to propagate, rather than a specific magnesium deficiency.


I too have been battling this for quite some time now. Bummer, right. I've lost like several plants and like hundreds of leaves through the months. i tried modifying the amounts of fertz even going 150% EI on my K. Killed all my Amanos and trapdoor snails since I had the CO2 cranked up too high. Even using 5dKh drop checker soltn and its lime green at diff. locations. I have 2 Eheim Eco 2232 on a 38G so that's twice the filtration and it should be pretty much good on circulation (tried different nozzle orientations to spread CO2 better).

I hate to disagree but I've seen it happen on really young leaves even on plantlets too so I really don't think or almost sure it is not part of a cycle or the old leaves dying for the new. I will agree with you that it is NOT a Mg deficiency, i've tried adding Mgso4 but it does not eliminate the problem. Plus I've seen floaters come in contact with other plants and it will melt the leaves of the other plants too. 

i've got other theories including chemical burn (from Excel and micros) but I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet.

One thing I know to definitelity curb the spread of the melt is that you really have to be aggressive in pruning the plant. If one leaf melts you need to prune a few more surrounding leaves (I take a flashlight and look for browning on the stems and on leaves) wether they look healthy or not. i tried being conservative in pruning but it seems that the agressive approach is better IMHO.


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

Arv said:


> I too have been battling this for quite some time now. Bummer, right. I've lost like several plants and like hundreds of leaves through the months. i tried modifying the amounts of fertz even going 150% EI on my K. Killed all my Amanos and trapdoor snails since I had the CO2 cranked up too high. Even using 5dKh drop checker soltn and its lime green at diff. locations. I have 2 Eheim Eco 2232 on a 38G so that's twice the filtration and it should be pretty much good on circulation (tried different nozzle orientations to spread CO2 better).
> 
> I hate to disagree but I've seen it happen on really young leaves even on plantlets too so I really don't think or almost sure it is not part of a cycle or the old leaves dying for the new. I will agree with you that it is NOT a Mg deficiency, i've tried adding Mgso4 but it does not eliminate the problem. Plus I've seen floaters come in contact with other plants and it will melt the leaves of the other plants too.
> 
> ...


Interesting theory.... Thinking more about this, you're right in that I've noticed the 'melting' evidenced by lime green transparency on plantlet leaves too. I experienced this when I wasn't dosing fertz, nor adding chemical supplements other than prime with a w/c so I'd be inclined to rule out chemical burn. If the 'melting' impacts other plants as you've suggested, i wonder whether it could it be some form of allelopathy? I support the heavy pruning of 'damaged' leaves on java fern, as irrespective of the cause I've also found that this is the best way to assist in the recovery of the plant.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

Bl00dworm said:


> Interesting theory.... Thinking more about this, you're right in that I've noticed the 'melting' evidenced by lime green transparency on plantlet leaves too. I experienced this when I wasn't dosing fertz, nor adding chemical supplements other than prime with a w/c so I'd be inclined to rule out chemical burn. If the 'melting' impacts other plants as you've suggested, i wonder whether it could it be some form of allelopathy? I support the heavy pruning of 'damaged' leaves on java fern, as irrespective of the cause I've also found that this is the best way to assist in the recovery of the plant.


Sorry, what i meant by lime green was the color of the drop checker liquid.

The reason why we probably have not pin pointed what really causes this is that there is more than one thing that causes it or multiple things make it happen at a faster rate than normal.

At one time I thought it would happen on the 2nd week of my water change cycle (i normally change every 10-14 days) so I thought maybe the water is overpolluted at that time or some minerals are completely depleted that is not replaced (or replaced enough) by the micro/macros.
But it would also happen right after or a couple to few days after a change too so there goes that theory. So it could have been the change in h2o parameters that did it, though I air out and heat the water in a tub and Prime it too. But I sometimes also spot dose Excel after a water change. 

For chemical burn. As for Excel, it spot dose all the time to get rid of some algae. Most of the time it does not do anything but once a while I thought it would melt the java in the area that I spot dosed. Or maybe I just left the filters off too long that time after spot dosing. There was also a time when I thought the melt would occur on the days that I dosed micros (dry fert mixed in bottle with some excel to prevent mold). I knew this melting was not happening when I was still dosing with flourish. Again, Excel in the micro mix but this is minimal at 30ml for the 250ml bottle. So I blamed it on the micros.

Allelopathy - could very well be but i'm no plant expert but like i said when a floating fern gets stuck to another seemingly healthy plant (java or not) the other plant will melt too.

One time I let the No3 get too low, now that was a total mess. Almost all my plants melted. it started with the s.repens then the ferns, then the DHG. It even affected the anubais and Amazons. So at that time I thought is was a deficiency.

One thing I do not do is add GH booster. My water GH is mostly Ca per the engineer at my water source so I just add some Mg but not Ca, I think I will try that next. Maybe not during a water change but on my 2nd week to replenish what is consumed. I guess I can start testing for Gh too.


The good news now is that my 38G is almost back to full lush, more than half of the plants in there are java on 2 big pcs of driftwood running across the tank. 

Tell me more about your episodes.

Thx!


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## Bl00dworm (Apr 6, 2012)

Arv said:


> Sorry, what i meant by lime green was the color of the drop checker liquid.
> 
> The reason why we probably have not pin pointed what really causes this is that there is more than one thing that causes it or multiple things make it happen at a faster rate than normal.
> 
> ...


I've experienced two main issues with java ferns in a couple of aquariums over the years.

1. A transparency in the tips of leaves.
2. A gradual browning / blackening of leave tissue which spreads from mother plant to attached plantlets. (Not to other plants)

I'm not too fussed with 1 and figure it's nutrient related, it doesn't seem to impact general health of plant.

2 is the key problem and the only way I have successfully combated it is with hard pruning of damaged leaves. Whenever I have done this the plant recovers to lush growth in time.

I do not regularly dose the water column. Only change 10% water every month or so and do not supplement with CO2 or use chemicals other than purigen and prime. I have medium/low lighting and capped soil substrate. Low tech in other words.

Other java ferns in tank located away from effected plants are ok in my experience. Java issue occurs when other plants are in full health. Which leads me away from water/nutrient/light parameters and towards a cycle or issue with specific plants.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

*Getting ready to dump Java ferns*

Just got over another cycle. Wiped out a tank with over a hundred leaves! Things are growing back but now some of the new ones are melting again.

*Has anyone figured out what really causes this?* 

1. It's definitely not Mg or Ca def, I can attest to that since I've been adding both even though my water is pretty hard this time of the year (winter=snow run off=soft , summer=well water=hard, mostly ca per water utility engineer).

2. Not lack of CO2 my 5dkh (not 4dkh) drop checker is lime green almost yellow.

3. Not lack of circulation, got 2 eheim 2322's, intakes in each back corner, outputs on the same corner to ensure they are not counter acting each other. The one with the TBarr CO2 reactor points slightly down at an angle to the plants, while the other output creates a little ripples just enough to break the surface film.

4. I'm doing a modified EI now. used to do full EI but it didn't matter, now i don't dose P and N since I feed the fish a lot and don't vac the gravel. About normal stocking level. Test kits confirm that I don't need too. So I just Ei dose K and micros. I didn't calibrate my N test kits but I've got 3 API test kits from different batches that register 0 with tap water and the same ppm with my tank water.

5. water change - 20 gallons every two weeks on my 38G tank. i use prime and add 2 tsp of mg and 1.5 tsp of ca to the 20G container.

*Could it be a pathogen?* Like I said before, a melted jave fern that comes in contact with other plants like amazon sword, anubais, DHG would also melt.

Could it be flourish excel? I dose excel when I have some BBA to kill on the slow growing leaves of anubais that are high and directly under the light.
Ok so I'm getting some BBA so it must be a deficiency then? reducing the light helped.

Lighting - I used to have 2 xt5HO running 8 hours. During the summer when its hot I run a single bulb longer (about 11 hrs) and just turn on the 2nd bulb when I get home (about 5-6 hours)

38Gallon tank
substrate: layer of peat and laterite under eco complete, root tabs every 3 mos.

During the java fern melt other plants are doing well (amazon sword, DHG, anubias) The anubais have even been flowering a lot lately.

HELP!!!


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## mr.bigglesworth (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm going to try Epsom salt!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

you can try adding epson salt and it shouldn't hurt but I don't think its Mg deficiency that causes the melt. it might be a contributing factor (a nutrient deficiency but not necessarily mg) but from my experience adding mg did not do anything.


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## discoveringmypath (Oct 9, 2013)

I don't have any issues with this, but I'm interested in seeing what the solution is. With that said, has anyone found a solution?

Also, for those having these issues with there java ferns, is this happening to all there java fern plants or just one of them? 

I was thinking if it was just one of them, could it be some kind of disease? Maybe just take that one plant out and get rid of it?

Good luck for those experiencing this problem. I'm new to planted tanks, but I really like the java fern plant. I'm trying to learn more about it just in case I run into this problem in the future.


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## Jalopy (Aug 11, 2013)

I just added some Java Fern to my high tech tank and the leaves started going black as well. I'm already dosing Epsom salt as a part of my EI solution. I'm maintaining the magnesium level at 2.52ppm. It'll be great to figure out what this is. Everything else is growing really well so I don't think it's a deficiency issue. I super glued my java ferns to lava rocks by the way.


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## pick1e (Jun 12, 2008)

I just got this a few days ago and it's wiping out a 10g forest of java fern. This is a real bummer since it's for breeding- they prefer java fern specifically.

I'm no biologist but I think it has something to do with cyanobacteria. I noticed these fine strands on the affected leaves when I removed them (first pic). They're invisible to the naked eye but I could see them in the light while lying on the floor looking up into the tank while pruning (the tank is on the bottom rack). This is the best pic I could get with my phone. These strands would explain why it spreads leaf to leaf as in my second pic.

I recently had some cynaobacteria in this tank and it still smells of it. Need a different bulb in there I think.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

pick1e said:


> I just got this a few days ago and it's wiping out a 10g forest of java fern. This is a real bummer since it's for breeding- they prefer java fern specifically.
> 
> I'm no biologist but I think it has something to do with cyanobacteria. I noticed these fine strands on the affected leaves when I removed them (first pic). They're invisible to the naked eye but I could see them in the light while lying on the floor looking up into the tank while pruning (the tank is on the bottom rack). This is the best pic I could get with my phone. These strands would explain why it spreads leaf to leaf as in my second pic.
> 
> I recently had some cynaobacteria in this tank and it still smells of it. Need a different bulb in there I think.


How is your water supposed to smell?

My water normally smells ok, or it smells like excel when I dose a lot. My pre filters do smell funky but I attribute that to a couple of big driftwood which also makes the the gunk off them really dark. The only time my pre-filters smelled rotten/bad was when I first started dosing H2O2, could that be the cyanobacteria that got fried that you are referring to? 

According to this http://www.cdc.gov/hab/cyanobacteria/pdfs/facts.pdf the only thing I have that even comes close are some green spots on the glass maybe when the water is about 2 weeks old or on anubais leaves. But people do refer to these as blue-green algae. Right now I don't have either present (or as I can see) and thats about 3 weeks since I started dosing H2O2 and excel to kill off some BBA but i still get the melt.

My tank has little algae (I think) right now that the Ottos are stripping the meat off my newly sprouting Amazon sword leaves. 

I did see a post somewhere that this guy nuked his tank with anti-biotics to get rid of the melt so this could have nuked the cyanobacteria if present.

I will keep an eye for those fuzzy things.

I have been lucky lately that I have been catching the melt early and I will just prune aggresively around the melt. In fact I cut the melting leaf last, I prune the leaves surrounding/touching it first. It gets old using my flashlight trying to find these. It shouldn't be this tedious and time consuming. I've considered getting rid of my java ferns but they seem to grow back nicer everytime.

one more thing since cyanobacteria is dependent on light that could explain why after trimming a plant left in my high light tank the melt could still continue on that plant, it never does (or only a few times) when I
move this plant into my low tech-low light tank. But other parameters have changed too in this LT-LL tank.


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## micheljq (Oct 24, 2012)

Bl00dworm said:


> I've experienced two main issues with java ferns in a couple of aquariums over the years.
> 
> 1. A transparency in the tips of leaves.


I don't think it's an issue but normal on new leaves which are growing, mine did always do that. When growth is complete, transparency is gone.

Michel.


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

*Still having this problem*

Any definite solution to this?


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## Arv (Oct 3, 2011)

*Still having this problem*

Bump:frown:


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