# Need help with keeping CPD fry alive! all details posted...



## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

I was cleaning out my 14g breeding experiment which I thought was not successful but after I siphoned out most of the water I found some CPD fry. They can't be more than a day old since most of them are sitting at the bottom. I know they alive since when I put something beside them they wiggle away.... I had to catch most of them in the bucket that I use when cleaning my tank, I used a cup and for the most part a syringe, usually used for dosing, because most of them were on the bottom and still some managed to wiggle away. 
Since my green water was unsuccessful I want to see if I can feed the some other food, but which one? I got some arctic copepods and daphnia flakes, some BS eggs. 
I also put them in a plastic container with some moss, will this be good enough? or should I add an air pump? 
I also still have some swimming around in the bucket but I can not catch them what is a good and effective way of catching tiny little fry? 

Please help I really want the little guys to survive! I was so excited to find some, and I think I might have killed quite a few when cleaning the tank.

Thanks


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## MPrudent (Mar 29, 2009)

Obvious question...What kind of fry?


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

MPrudent said:


> Obvious question...What kind of fry?


 It's a CPD fry and due to my stupid computer I thought the threat didn't post  Sorry for the confusion and all the details are edited


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## sewingalot (Oct 12, 2008)

Yeah! Congratulations. Yes, add an airstone. You can use a turkey baster to collect the fry (dollar store). Moss if in an established tank will provide food for the first few days or so. Arctic copepods are working wonders for me right now.


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

sewingalot said:


> Yeah! Congratulations. Yes, add an airstone. You can use a turkey baster to collect the fry (dollar store). Moss if in an established tank will provide food for the first few days or so. Arctic copepods are working wonders for me right now.


Im loving those arctic copepods too!!! My cpds have put on so much size and color in the last month, not solely due to the AC, but i think they are a large part of it.

I answered the same thing in the CPD's and Goldn Pearls thread, but ill give my take here quickly. For what i know Funky has for food, i think the arctic copepods and then decapped BSE would be the best bet. And like Sewingalot said, in a planted tank they should hopefully find enough to eat to get them to the next food size stage. I dont have a number to back this up, but im pretty sure the AC are smaller than the BSE. The BSE are around 220 microns, and just based on visuals i think the AC's are roughly half that size??? 

And...congrats on the fry!!!!!!


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Thank you Thank you  And thanks for all the tips  

I am so excited and at the same time keeping my fingers crossed that they will all survive. 
I just gave up on trying to catch them and put the water back in the 14 g with some fresh water, hope it's ok and won't hurt them. I am just so tired, I been trying to collect them for hours and the water was getting super cold. 
I think I got close to 15, most are in the plastic container which I floating in the tank with an air stone, I counted 4 more trying to swim in the tank. Water is quiet murky since it is an old water so they should have some food in there. I will do a small water change tomorrow and maybe some food, copepods will be the first food I will try. I just hope I get at least 3 to survive, but preferably all, poor little guys had enough stress today.  I also, hope they don't get sucked into the filter but I think Im just getting paranoid, my filter is for 10g with a sponge on the intake and the tank is 14g. lol 

I am also concerned that I do see one trying to swim kinda in the plastic container but the rest are on the bottom, they not moving unless I put something beside them? They do look extremely small some with big bellies. So my guess they could be less than 48 hours..... 
Thanks guys, I am off to bed before my posts won't make sense. I just hope when I wake up tomorrow they still be alive....


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Good morning!  

So far so good! 
Have 2 or swimming in my container I see one swimming in the tank. Then there is a bunch of fry at the bottom of the container and a couple more in the tank that stick to the glass or chilling in the gravel. Should I worry about the ones that are at the bottom? they do wiggle away if I tap container. I also gave them some copepods but it was very hard to see if they actually ate it. 

Any more tips and suggestions are welcome.


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

glad things survived the night, you included! lol So the fry that are hanging at the bottom still...maybe those are just really new and arent free swimming yet? I know that CPD's are sort of continual spawners, laying several eggs each day once they start really breeding, so it would make sense that you had fry in several different stages...


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

VisionQuest28 said:


> glad things survived the night, you included! lol So the fry that are hanging at the bottom still...maybe those are just really new and arent free swimming yet? I know that CPD's are sort of continual spawners, laying several eggs each day once they start really breeding, so it would make sense that you had fry in several different stages...


I seriously hardly slept I was so excited and I even dreamed about my little fishes LOL 

And that's what I was thinking but needed conformation. I actually have seen 3 swimming in my tank and then there was 4 swimming in the container untill the container I was floating turned over and now all of them are in the big 14g and I only see like 3. :icon_eek: But the tank is pretty big and they are so tiny so I am sure they are somewhere in there. I have a bunch of plants floating at the top including some driftwood and rocks with moss so they should be ok the only tank mates they have is baby ramshorn snails so there is no risk of them being eaten. 

I also did try to feed them today but it's so hard to tell if they actually eating LOL all I see is the big eyes... How do you feed your fry, I need some tips? What I did I put some copepods in a little cup with water let them soak for a bit then I took my dosing surynge and fed them by dispensing the food in the spots were they hang out so hopefully they got some. Tomorrow i want to try crushing some daphnia flake and some vegiie flakes into a fine powder and feed them the same way, will they eat that? 

One last question, how fast do they grow?


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

Im sorry.i dont really have direct answers to alot of those questions. I havent got my CPD's to breed yet, they are actually just starting to color up enough where i can tell male from female. And with in the last week or 2 i have started to see a LITTLE bit "dancing" and chasing going on. When i said i bought some of the smaller size GP's for this instance, i meant that i was hoping to have some kind of fry (most of my fish are showing breeding activity lately) AND i figured there would be people who needed/wanted smaller sized GP's for their fry also.

I think your method of attempting to feed sounds good, the copepods stay in suspension in the water column pretty good, especially if you dont have a filter going in there now. ( i saw your new thread). Once they get older i think they would definitely eat some of the other foods crushed up, but i honestly dont know now, i dont know how picky they are. Some fry take right to prepared foods like its normal and some are just more difficult than that, and i dont know which category the CPD's fit into. 

I would think the daphnia flakes would work well, and im sure they will crumble up easy. The package claimed that they were in a size range from 1 micron to something like a 1000, so if you can get them down into the single micron stage...thats certainly small enough for any fry to eat. One thing i just discovered last night while attempting to feed some new cherry red shrimp i got...all my fish really like the veggie sticks! I placed 2 sticks on the bottom, and it started with one zebra danio picking at it, and then a couple more, and the more they picked the more of a veggie dust cloud they were kicking up. With in 5 minutes there were 30 fish swarming in a fairly tight little pack around the VS, eating all of the small particles. So maybe you could try grounding them up...should turn to a powder fairly easily. And really i think the no carb micro pellets crushed up more would make a GREAT fry food too...

I think the biggest thing is to just be careful not to over feed, while trying to make sure you're feeding enough. Being in a well planted tank is going to help for sure and with adding these smaller types of feeds you're going to be feeding the micro fauna already in the tank too...so essentially you will be feeding the food! haha 

One little piece of advice i would like to add...try not to make yourself crazy over this!!!! I understand wanting to have all the fry make it, and you want the best possible for them. But they bred without you doing anything at all, and i bet atleast some of the fry would have made it without your intervention too. Especially now that they're in a planted tank with no predators...nature will take its course! You can certainly help things along with the right extra foods and stuff, but keep your sanity in the process! BUt believe me, i understand where you're coming from, and its easy advice to give...


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

The baby fry won't eat food until they are free swimming, or at least if they did it was anything they could find in all the moss I had. Honestly I fed mine just plain finely crushed flake food. CPDs in general grow quite slow, I think it takes a little less than 12 weeks till they have full adult coloring. I'm not sure at what age they're ready for breeding though.


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## DrEd (May 13, 2009)

You can buy the fine powder food called 'first bite', I believe, in the store. I used it before, and of cause only less than half of the fry survived. I put them in a shrimp only tank, once they were big enough (after 4 weeks, I think), they ate most of the worms in that tank and getting bigger and bigger everyday. lol.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

VisionQuest28 said:


> Im sorry.i dont really have direct answers to alot of those questions. I havent got my CPD's to breed yet, they are actually just starting to color up enough where i can tell male from female. And with in the last week or 2 i have started to see a LITTLE bit "dancing" and chasing going on. When i said i bought some of the smaller size GP's for this instance, i meant that i was hoping to have some kind of fry (most of my fish are showing breeding activity lately) AND i figured there would be people who needed/wanted smaller sized GP's for their fry also.


Well from what I learned it is easy to breed them  Just give them time. I don't know but from what I read feeding them live foods can help. I fed mine with out any kind of schedule some frozen brine shrimp and shaved frozen blood worms, apparently it worked. And I am sure they will breed for you as long as you got some females and males. 



VisionQuest28 said:


> I think your method of attempting to feed sounds good, the copepods stay in suspension in the water column pretty good, especially if you dont have a filter going in there now. ( i saw your new thread). Once they get older i think they would definitely eat some of the other foods crushed up, but i honestly dont know now, i dont know how picky they are. Some fry take right to prepared foods like its normal and some are just more difficult than that, and i dont know which category the CPD's fit into.
> 
> I would think the daphnia flakes would work well, and im sure they will crumble up easy. The package claimed that they were in a size range from 1 micron to something like a 1000, so if you can get them down into the single micron stage...thats certainly small enough for any fry to eat. One thing i just discovered last night while attempting to feed some new cherry red shrimp i got...all my fish really like the veggie sticks! I placed 2 sticks on the bottom, and it started with one zebra danio picking at it, and then a couple more, and the more they picked the more of a veggie dust cloud they were kicking up. With in 5 minutes there were 30 fish swarming in a fairly tight little pack around the VS, eating all of the small particles. So maybe you could try grounding them up...should turn to a powder fairly easily. And really i think the no carb micro pellets crushed up more would make a GREAT fry food too...


I think they eating copepods it so hard to tell they so tiny and almost transparent. All I see is big googly eyes LOL But even if they don't there must be some food in there since my snails thrive in that tank and I just found another batch of freshly hatched ramshorn snails. If baby snails find something to eat I would guess fry will too. 
I also pre made a little mix today, I put some copepods, daphnia flakes, no carb micro pellets, crushed it very well and we'll see how they will like it tomorrow  I also have some new Life Spectrum Small fish food that I might crush in with the others. 




VisionQuest28 said:


> I think the biggest thing is to just be careful not to over feed, while trying to make sure you're feeding enough. Being in a well planted tank is going to help for sure and with adding these smaller types of feeds you're going to be feeding the micro fauna already in the tank too...so essentially you will be feeding the food! haha


I feed them tiny amounts 3 times a day, I hope it's not too much. I am monitoring water parameters so that should tell me if I am overfeeding. 



VisionQuest28 said:


> One little piece of advice i would like to add...try not to make yourself crazy over this!!!! I understand wanting to have all the fry make it, and you want the best possible for them. But they bred without you doing anything at all, and i bet at least some of the fry would have made it without your intervention too. Especially now that they're in a planted tank with no predators...nature will take its course! You can certainly help things along with the right extra foods and stuff, but keep your sanity in the process! BUt believe me, i understand where you're coming from, and its easy advice to give...


:hihi: I know I got to stop worrying about them so much, I feel like mother hen LOL But I am just gonna let them be and just follow my instincts  

Thanks again for all the help  

P.S. If you ever need some ramshorn snails I might have some to spare in a very near future  If you and sewingalot want some when they grown up let me know, I will just ship them to you.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Rion said:


> The baby fry won't eat food until they are free swimming, or at least if they did it was anything they could find in all the moss I had. Honestly I fed mine just plain finely crushed flake food. CPDs in general grow quite slow, I think it takes a little less than 12 weeks till they have full adult coloring. I'm not sure at what age they're ready for breeding though.


They are swimming already well most of them some are still clinging to walls. And I will try crushing some regular food tomorrow for now they do eat copepods, I think, it's hard to tell all I see is eyes  
I also was told they should be at least 1cm in a month and the colors will start coming out when they close to 3/4". We'll see what happens for now all I want is to keep them alive


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

DrEd said:


> You can buy the fine powder food called 'first bite', I believe, in the store. I used it before, and of cause only less than half of the fry survived. I put them in a shrimp only tank, once they were big enough (after 4 weeks, I think), they ate most of the worms in that tank and getting bigger and bigger everyday. lol.


I actually thinking of going to the store to get some fry food, just in case.
Do you know why some of your fry died? 
I just want to keep them all alive since I already lost a lot in the whole water change before I discovered some. I will keep them in their own tank until they are at least half an inch, since I am scared that my cherry barbarians will bully them.


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

Funky, i think you sound like you are in good shape and have all your bases covered as well as you can for being surprised with fry. Im definitely paying close attention to this to see how you make out with just prepared food (minus the live they must be finding in the tank). Im guessing you're going to have more fry soon too, right? You have all they CPD's in their own tank now right? Are you just planning on leaving the fry in with the adults once they start breeding again? I think for me to ever see fry from mine i will have to move them to their own tank also, there are just too many hungry mouths in my community. But i would still be excited to see definite proof of breeding going on, even if it only ended up feeding the tank as a whole.

And i definitely might be interested in some of those ramshorns if you get to that point. I think i could probably use a clean up crew in my 37g. I traded for some cherry shrimp, partly for cleanup crew and partly cuz i think they are cool! haha But i havent seen hide nor hare of them since i put them in. But there has been times where ive not seen certain fish for DAYS at a time, and then they just reappear. So i know the shrimp could def still be in there, even though i bet atleast a couple ended up being a snack.


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

VisionQuest28 said:


> Funky, i think you sound like you are in good shape and have all your bases covered as well as you can for being surprised with fry. Im definitely paying close attention to this to see how you make out with just prepared food (minus the live they must be finding in the tank).


I hope I am in good shape  I'm just going with my gut feeling on most decisions, this is my first fish that ever breed for me. I am experimenting with food but it's so hard to see what they eat what they don't eat hopefully by the end of the week I will be able to see them better and make a better review on what food they prefer LOL I still might pick some fry food from LFS



VisionQuest28 said:


> Im guessing you're going to have more fry soon too, right?


I really hope for more fry. I will do everything I can for them to breed again.



VisionQuest28 said:


> You have all they CPD's in their own tank now right?


I have my 10g with my 6 adult CPD and my cherry barbarians some RCS and ramshorn snails. I had 3 CPDs, 2 females and 1 male in a 14g which was my breeding experiment. I moved breeding trio back to 10g and haven't had a chance to move cherry barbs to 14g since I discovered fry while trying to rescape the tank for barbs. For now it will stay this way until fry is big enough to move in with their parents and then I can transform 14g into a cherry barb tank. 
I hope that CPD will breed in 10 once I can move barbs to the 14g. If not I will get a smaller tank and repeat what I done with 14g.



VisionQuest28 said:


> Are you just planning on leaving the fry in with the adults once they start breeding again?


If they will breed again I am planning to remove the fry, I don't want for them to be eaten. From what I read people have better success with parents removed after eggs are laid, but I also think with lots of plants fry has a good chance of surviving with the parents in the same tank. 



VisionQuest28 said:


> I think for me to ever see fry from mine i will have to move them to their own tank also, there are just too many hungry mouths in my community. But i would still be excited to see definite proof of breeding going on, even if it only ended up feeding the tank as a whole.


If you have only CPD tank I think you should see some breeding soon. But IMHO I think you should remove a CPD couple or a trio into a separate tank with lots of moss and plants, condition them for a week and see what happens. I will make a detailed thread with my breeding experiment, I will write what I did and what apparently worked for me, but first I want to see if my fry will live, only then I will consider this a success. 



VisionQuest28 said:


> And i definitely might be interested in some of those ramshorns if you get to that point. I think i could probably use a clean up crew in my 37g. I traded for some cherry shrimp, partly for cleanup crew and partly cuz i think they are cool! haha But i havent seen hide nor hare of them since i put them in. But there has been times where ive not seen certain fish for DAYS at a time, and then they just reappear. So i know the shrimp could def still be in there, even though i bet atleast a couple ended up being a snack.


As soon as my snails big enough I will let you know. I had some hatch last week and some hatch the same day as I found fry, so they all pretty small, but they do grow pretty quickly so they should be ready soon. 

I loose my RCS in my 10g all the time, even my 2 biggest RCS that are very very red. I don't have many only 6 and some other shrimp which I think is a blue pearl, I don't see him at all maybe only once a week. So they are there somewhere, they are pretty quick and know how to hide


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

When I say "free swimming" I mean they no longer attach themselves to the glass. Yes, they can swim but not far distances without exerting a lot of effort. During this time they are still ingesting/running off of their egg sack. When they no longer need to attach to surfaces (granted by a literal sticky spot on their head) they have grown enough to be fit to hunt and forage for food.

I only say you might not need to feed them yet because you might not observe them eating anything yet and if you're putting in all those different types of food that might not be eaten, it'll start fouling up the water pretty fast. Though, I guess you have a clean up crew in there...

Anyways, good luck with the fry!


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

Rion said:


> When I say "free swimming" I mean they no longer attach themselves to the glass. Yes, they can swim but not far distances without exerting a lot of effort. During this time they are still ingesting/running off of their egg sack. When they no longer need to attach to surfaces (granted by a literal sticky spot on their head) they have grown enough to be fit to hunt and forage for food.
> 
> I only say you might not need to feed them yet because you might not observe them eating anything yet and if you're putting in all those different types of food that might not be eaten, it'll start fouling up the water pretty fast. Though, I guess you have a clean up crew in there...
> 
> Anyways, good luck with the fry!


I did not know that, thanks for the clarification  I still got so much to learn  
The funny part is there is some that stick to glass and some that constantly swimming. I think I have fry in different stages because I did have 2 females and one male, so I'm guessing the females laid eggs at different times.... 
Do you think doing a minor water change every 2 days will hep to keep water clean? I don't have a filter running for now because I found some fry in there, and I do have a sponge attached to the intake. I only have a heater and an air stone on for now, want to wait till they get a bit bigger so I can turn on the filter. And I do have a clean up crew I got some ramshorn snails and lot's of snail babies  

Thanks again for all the help


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## Rion (Dec 29, 2006)

It's likely you have two batches of fry. Just remember that they're small and can eat much so just feeding small amounts is fine as they can probably find other food among the plants if they need a little more. Don't be too concerned about water changes 10%-20% ever 4-6 days I would think would be well more than enough if you're careful not to over feed; because they're, well, small and don't add much bio-load. Also, you could put a sponge filter in there if you're concerned about filtration. They don't have enough flow to trap baby fry up against it but have all the porous material for beneficial bacteria to grow in (also they double as aeration being air-driven and all).


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## VisionQuest28 (Apr 18, 2007)

Rion said:


> It's likely you have two batches of fry. Just remember that they're small and can eat much so just feeding small amounts is fine as they can probably find other food among the plants if they need a little more. Don't be too concerned about water changes 10%-20% ever 4-6 days I would think would be well more than enough if you're careful not to over feed; because they're, well, small and don't add much bio-load. Also, you could put a sponge filter in there if you're concerned about filtration. They don't have enough flow to trap baby fry up against it but have all the porous material for beneficial bacteria to grow in (also they double as aeration being air-driven and all).


Agree with everything here pretty much. I had said that somewhere in one of the 2 or 3 threads we have been posting back and forth in... CPD's lay several eggs for many consecutive days when they are in breeding mode, so you almost definitely have fry in different stages, and probably more than 2.

Something i do with sponge filters is have some mature and ready on hand, atleast thats what i told myself when i added them to my 37g. I have 2 hydrosponges hidden in among the plants in there, along with the small canister and the 2 hang on the back power filters ( i believe in over filtration, and diversifying in case something happns, if that isnt obvious now! lol). But my idea with the sponge filters was that i could take one out and replace it with a new one, and put the mature one in a new tank if need be. Then i could have an instant start up in rush, and i could do it without affecting the biofilter too much in the 37g. I have yet to do this, but i have peace of mind knowing i could. Just something to think about for the future i guess...

I have seen many variations on advice for water changes with fry. Me personally, i would still do them. Just be careful you dont shock the fry. Maybe smaller percent changes, and add water back in SLOWLY. That would be my plan of attack anyway....


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## funkyfish (Mar 16, 2009)

VisionQuest28 said:


> Agree with everything here pretty much. I had said that somewhere in one of the 2 or 3 threads we have been posting back and forth in... CPD's lay several eggs for many consecutive days when they are in breeding mode, so you almost definitely have fry in different stages, and probably more than 2.
> 
> Something i do with sponge filters is have some mature and ready on hand, atleast thats what i told myself when i added them to my 37g. I have 2 hydrosponges hidden in among the plants in there, along with the small canister and the 2 hang on the back power filters ( i believe in over filtration, and diversifying in case something happns, if that isnt obvious now! lol). But my idea with the sponge filters was that i could take one out and replace it with a new one, and put the mature one in a new tank if need be. Then i could have an instant start up in rush, and i could do it without affecting the biofilter too much in the 37g. I have yet to do this, but i have peace of mind knowing i could. Just something to think about for the future i guess...
> 
> I have seen many variations on advice for water changes with fry. Me personally, i would still do them. Just be careful you dont shock the fry. Maybe smaller percent changes, and add water back in SLOWLY. That would be my plan of attack anyway....


I need to start a journal with my experiences on breeding and keeping CPD. I am learning quiet a lot about them  

I also believe in over filtration now I need to make a believer out of my hubby :hihi: I like your idea with sponge filter it always good to be prepared. And I do need to get a sponge filter as I am planing to get a smaller tank just for breeding CPD and it will be home for fry. 

I am planing to do minor water changes every 3 days just in case, only because my filter is off. I also doing water testing every 2 days concentrating more on pH and ammonia, I want to make sure everything were it supposed to be. 

Thank to you all for good advices and suggestions I really do appreciate it  I will do some updates and I might have a couple of pictures were you can see some of the fry.  And as of today everyone doing fine it seems still hard to tell if they eating food I made them so I will pick some liquid food for them this friday. If anyone can suggest what fry food should I go with it will be greatly appreciated. Thanks again


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