# Sump Design for 180 Gallon Tank



## xmas_one (Feb 5, 2010)

One of the members in my club made a 60 gal sump real similar to your drawing, hope this helps...

http://www.socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4738


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## j-gens (Dec 11, 2008)

if i were to do my sump over again i would actually remove my second and third chamber area and just make it a single big chambers...

this way you do not need to top off as often from evaporation....

also on my sump i run a filter sock on the tube that drains from the tank into the sump i like it, it works well but you need to change them often...

also what i did with my separator panels which i really like as opposed to your setup is ... the first panel that i put in which is the one on the far left of your diagram i made the water flow underneath of it and up over the second panel and a third to push water back down under the level of the water in the big chamber..
this will cut down on turbulence... which equates to co2 loss and also 
i read somewhere where biomedia actually responds well to water being pushed up and through it instead of just flowing down on it??? (i dont know but i did it anyways)


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

xmas_one said:


> One of the members in my club made a 60 gal sump real similar to your drawing, hope this helps...
> 
> http://www.socalaquascapers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4738


I really like the setup of this sump. Its the same general idea I have but he did his quite different. I noticed his intake is at the top dripping/falling through the two bags with sponges. I wonder if this would be a better method for mechanical filtration than having the water overflow onto the sponges like mine? I also noticed his middle section is baffled off at the bottom and the water overflows in/out of the middle section. I like the idea of having the middle section similar to a refug but It doesnt look like the best setup for optimum flow/filtration? It will only move water thats at the top whereas my setup makes the water enter the middle section at the bottom then its filtered over sponges again before going to the pump. Then again, I will have a canister filter or two in my middle section that will really cycle all the water in the middle if i decide to copy his setup. I really cant decide what would be best since I've never built a sump... 




j-gens said:


> if i were to do my sump over again i would actually remove my second and third chamber area and just make it a single big chambers...
> 
> this way you do not need to top off as often from evaporation....
> 
> ...


I actually drew up a diagram like this. I put 3 baffles at first to release any trapped air bubbles and to cut down on turbulence then the water flowed back down and entered the next section like you were saying. I redisigned it though thinking if i put a baffle near the pump with sponges and filter floss in it the suction of the pump would help force water through the media. Maybe one large chamber would be better? I'm trying to go for as low maintenance as possible. Right now I'm doing 50% wc every other day and its just too much. I would like to go to one water change a week but I don't mind topping off the sump twice a week. There's just so many options/ways to design a sump I'm really confused as to what would be best setup for me! Thanks a lot for both of your ideas and help :icon_smil


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## j-gens (Dec 11, 2008)

that sump is actually what mine looks like minus having the middle set up as an actual refugium, and the glass panels on mine are not nearly as high. They are around only half way up my tank.... 

also something to consider.... my sump will catch all water from my tank if the pump stops working for some reason allowing my sump not to overflow and create a gigantic mess...

again if i could do it over which i may... i would eliminate the middle chamber as it seems useless to me...


i can go a week without doing a waterchange on my tank fine with my sump setup... but refilling every other day is a pita... i feel as tho the last chamber has such a small volume of water that the exaporation is elaborated in it and creates a lot of turbulence and bubbles if i do not keep up on it.... if the chamber were bigger or eliminated i feel as i could go a longer period of time without refilling it


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

My 75 (non planted) has a 1" and 3/4" bulkhead in the corner overflow. I use the 1" as the primary, with a ball valve to reduce it down so it can't quite keep up with the pump. The 3/4" picks up the excess (not enough to make any noise). It went from noisy as hell to silent when I did this.

The drains at a full siphon can handle a lot of water flow, much more than if used as traditional overflows; I'm not sure quite how much though. I have the 1" drain at half open with the ball valve, and it handles around 500 GPH. You might be able to use the two 1" bulkheads as the primary drain, one 1.5" as the backup, and the 4th as an output. If you use all 4 holes as drains, you'll have to plumb the outputs up over the rim, and PVC elbows restrict the flow a lot. Also, you need to adjust it so the two primary drains can't handle all the flow from the pump. It's basically impossible to get it exactly matched, and if the drains are slightly too fast, the water level in the overflow will fluctuate and suck in air.



For a 180 gallons tank, 10x turnover would be nice. Two quiteone 4000s (50 watts each) would get close, 1000 GPH each at 0 restriction. Many larger pumps are very inefficient, GPH/watt. If you can drill the sump an external pump would be more efficient but cost more initially.


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

j-gens said:


> that sump is actually what mine looks like minus having the middle set up as an actual refugium, and the glass panels on mine are not nearly as high. They are around only half way up my tank....
> 
> also something to consider.... my sump will catch all water from my tank if the pump stops working for some reason allowing my sump not to overflow and create a gigantic mess...
> 
> ...


Good point, I think I'm going to leave out the middle section and move all the filtration closer to the left. I'm going to have my baffles about 3/4 the ways to the top.







FSM said:


> My 75 (non planted) has a 1" and 3/4" bulkhead in the corner overflow. I use the 1" as the primary, with a ball valve to reduce it down so it can't quite keep up with the pump. The 3/4" picks up the excess (not enough to make any noise). It went from noisy as hell to silent when I did this.
> 
> The drains at a full siphon can handle a lot of water flow, much more than if used as traditional overflows; I'm not sure quite how much though. I have the 1" drain at half open with the ball valve, and it handles around 500 GPH. You might be able to use the two 1" bulkheads as the primary drain, one 1.5" as the backup, and the 4th as an output. If you use all 4 holes as drains, you'll have to plumb the outputs up over the rim, and PVC elbows restrict the flow a lot. Also, you need to adjust it so the two primary drains can't handle all the flow from the pump. It's basically impossible to get it exactly matched, and if the drains are slightly too fast, the water level in the overflow will fluctuate and suck in air.
> 
> ...


How tall are you stand pipes? I was thinking i wanted the main near the bottom so it will have a constant full siphon but if the pump dies I will have to figure out a way to break the siphon. 

I got a chance to measure the bulkheads today and it turns out they are 3/4" and 1". I'm thinking I should have both 1" on full siphon and the 3/4"s as backups. I will have to plump the return but I can put multiple outlets exactly where I want them. I'm going to go with the queitone 4000s. I want an external pump but I didn't realize they cost so much.

Thanks for the help everyone!


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

I updated the design...









The bag on the intake is going to have bonded filter or something similar. The gap at the bottom of the first baffle is only going to be about 3". I'm also going to make the gap where the water rises about 3". Does everything look ok? I'm going to start on it tomorrow if the glass shop is open.


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## FSM (Jan 13, 2009)

are you going to add an area for biomedia?



WhiskeyD said:


> How tall are you stand pipes? I was thinking i wanted the main near the bottom so it will have a constant full siphon but if the pump dies I will have to figure out a way to break the siphon.
> 
> I got a chance to measure the bulkheads today and it turns out they are 3/4" and 1". I'm thinking I should have both 1" on full siphon and the 3/4"s as backups. I will have to plump the return but I can put multiple outlets exactly where I want them. I'm going to go with the queitone 4000s. I want an external pump but I didn't realize they cost so much.
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone!


The primary is about 4" from the top, the backup is almost at the surface (relative to the water level in the rest of the tank). The water only drops about an inch as it flows into the overflow chamber which eliminates noise. There shouldn't be a big disparity in the drain heights; if there is, most of the volume of the overflow chamber will drain into the sump when the pump is off. In my case, that could easily flood the sump, and that happens often enough due to my own lack of foresight.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Why so much space after the filter media? Is the pump that big? 
I would go with as much media as you can reasonably fit in there. The pump does not need much room at all (unless it is much bigger, and you just have not enlarged it). 

Crushed Coral for Discus? I wouldn't. Set the new water correct when you do a water change. I have peat moss in the sump of the tank with Discus. 

In my 72 gallon and in my 125 gallon the 1" pipe is barely even handling a 300 gph pump. The 72 is drilled, the 125 is through a self starting siphon over the edge. So, yes, having all your bulkheads available for water flowing out is good. The pump can certainly return the water over the edge just fine. 

On both of these I have a 90* fitting at the bottom of the pipe that leads from the tank to the sump, but nothing to block it. It discharges below the water line in the sump. One of them bubbles a lot (the 72). Yes, there is probably some CO2 loss in both of these. They do make some gurgling sounds, but not much. They both have openings above the water level in these pipes. They are really noisy if I hold my finger over this air gap.


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

I run a little crushed coral because my tap water has very little gh and kh. The crushed coral helps keep the pH swing to a minimal when I do large water changes. The big open area is going to hold sponge filters, a canister or two, and the rest of my equipment.


I plan to put biomedia in the last chamber with the canister output blowing on it or in the middle when the water rises.


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## j-gens (Dec 11, 2008)

i have my drain pipe from my tank so it is under the water level of the sump creating minimal turbulance... i am running a full siphon from my return also...

quick question what are you planning on doing for your dosing???
co2 ferts? i ask because you can change things around before you set up your tank for either scenario

honestly if you just use something like biobale in your first chamber or between your first separators that should be plenty of bio media... 

i have a discus tank and all i have in my sump is 1 small box of ceramic rings and a filter sock the rest is open and i have my heater in there... it works great....

but i also pivot around a weekly waterchange and i inject co2 and dose ferts ei style...

but i have gone without dosing co2 or ferts and cut my lighting in half and it went for 3 weeks fine...


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You *need* a sealed section where the pipe comes in.

Otherwise you will lose all the gas(CO2) that is what sumpes/wet/dry chambers are designed to do. If you use a wet/dry chamber, all you have to do is seal up the chamber.

A sponge prefilter and sponge secondary filter in the sump post wet/dry sealed chamber are plenty. Do not simply have the pipe come into a bag filter and then degas, you'll lose all the dissolved CO2.

Been there a very long time ago and done this.
Baaaaddd idea. We had this discussion decades ago on the APD with folks that used sumps.

So if you have a normal wet/dry filter, all you do is duct or grafter's tape up any holes, vents, places where it can exchange with the outside.
Basically the wet/dry chamber acts like a largeb CO2 reactor, it'll simply redissolve rather than being degassed out.
This + raising the overflow to about 2-3" drop will resolve about 95% of any degassing issues with wet/dry vs canister filters etc.





Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

Thanks for all the help everyone! I had some recent car trouble which really set back this tank. Its going to be a while before i can afford the pumps and everything. 

I will definitely find a way to seal off the section where the intake is. I'm not exactly sure how I'm going to do that. I'm thinking i should have the glass baffle run up to the top of the tank then get some eggcrate with some tape or even a piece of plexi glass to cover the holes. That way it will be easy to cut 2 holes for the intake pipes and I can remove it when needed. I thought about making a permanent glass top sealing off the first section but that would make it hard to get in there for maintenance.

I dont have any plans for Co2 and ferts for a while. I'm really tight for money right now so I know i cant afford a Co2 setup. I've been dosing excel in my 55 and 75 gallon which great results but that will get expensive in a 180G so I think i'm going to go with a semi lowtech setup. I'm only going to run a 48" 2x54w T5HO until i can afford a 72" or two 36" fixtures.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Plexi or equal will work OK, but get a thicker piece than you think you need. These plastics can sag, especially when they are in a moist and warm place. 
Keep it removable for servicing this section. I am not sure how to both seal it, and keep it open-able.


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## WhiskeyD (May 10, 2009)

Updated the design.


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