# Seachem Flourish - Cu trace harmful for Cheery Shrimps ?



## Toysoldier (Aug 2, 2006)

I made a silly mistake last week that wiped out my entire cherry shrimps because i used a fish medication bottle cap to scoop water out the nano tank.

Now i am skeptical of adding flourish because after reading the composition, there are copper trace in it. I am afraid it will harm the shrimps again.

Need your advice


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## fshfanatic (Apr 20, 2006)

If there is copper in it, it can kill inverts. That is a know fact. However, slight amounts of copper could be considered harmless. The definition of "slight" is still being debated.


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## Cardinal Tetra (Feb 26, 2006)

I've used it without any adverse effects on my cherries.


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## yoink (Apr 21, 2005)

I use it with crystal reds, cherrys, tigers, amanos, and Asian algae eating shrimp. They are all doing just fine, most are reproducing.


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

There is a very small amount of copper in it, some seem to have an advers effect on shrimp, with cherrys I dont think it really matter, just be careful that the food you are feed contains no or very little CU


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## Toysoldier (Aug 2, 2006)

thanks guys. maybe i will just add half of the recommended dose. :thumbsup:


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## endparenthesis (Jul 13, 2004)

Supposedly it collects in the body like a time bomb. But whether or not there's enough copper in there to kill them before the end of their lifespan is debatable. Heavy dosers should be more concerned I'd think.


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

FWIW, I have heard folks claim that CSM+B might be harmful to cherry shrimp. I recent ran out of CSM+B and have started using Flourish (with a bottle a Tropica Aquacare...formerly TMG, in the wings). Since switching from CSM+B to Flourish, my CRS have started multiplying. Whereas I had trouble getting them to flourish (pun intended!) before, they seem to be going great now.

YMMV,
Brian.


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## turbosaurus (Nov 19, 2005)

Just be careful. For about 8 months I dosed trace, containing copper, without any ill effects, but one day I accidentally overdosed, I didn't think it was that bad, 8 hours later 60+ cheries, dead as doornails. Use according to directions and keep up on your water changes and from my experience it is fine, just be careful.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Specifically with Flourish:
200mls per 20 gallons of tank caused no adversed effects on any shrimp or fish.

So..........

Try another variable because it's not anything to do with Flourish, you'd have to add 20mls per 20 gal daily before you'd come even remotely close.

Cu is toxic at *high levels, not any level*.

And no, it does not accumulate endlessly in *you* nor fish nor planted tanks. Waste, molting, Cu is used in metabolism and excreated, plant take up Cu and assimilate it, then you prune, and then you do water changes etc, exporting it out.

What might occur is with super soft water, all metals tend to be more toxic to critters. The above test was for KH's of 1-2 and then for the 200mls/20gal, that was KH= 6.

This is long term exposure, week for the 200mls/20gal and on going for several months for the 20mls/20 gal.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## Toysoldier (Aug 2, 2006)

:icon_sad:  :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry: 

guys i just murdered another 10 cherries !!! :icon_cry: :icon_cry: 

not sure why, i bought another 10 from the LFS. THey were already packed in bags of 10. I selected the best looking of the lot (though the bags were a little deflated already, quite the same as the first batch i bought 1 week ago and now i am beginning to suspect how long they had been in that bag !) and came home right away and threw them all immediately into my tank!

4hours later, all of them........DEAD! :icon_cry: :icon_cry: 


why why why ??? :icon_cry: :icon_cry: :icon_cry:


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

That sounds like some form of shock to me. Likely some kind of extreme water differences (temp, pH, ...). I'd float the bag for 1-2 hours, and every 15 minutes or so add in some amount of your tank water (though opinions vary on this approach). At a minimum, float the old bag until the temperatures in the bag can stabilize with the tank temps.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Drip method of acclimation solves any of that.

But, it's certainly not the Flourish that killed your shrimp nor the copper.
That much you can be assured, so start a new thread for why the shrimp are dying. This one is pretty well answered.
I should have dead shrimp, but I've so many we give them away here.

So we know that the dead shrimp cannot be due to the copper in Flourish or other trace mixes. If it was definitely Copper, then everyone would be able to kill their shrimp with the various trace brands and we just do not see that.

Given that there are perhaps 50 other reasons for the shrimp deaths, you need to refine the search now and cross this one off the list.


Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

*Avoid CU*

Excess copper poisons shrimps (and their relatives). Shall I explain? They use the copper-containing pigment hemocyanin rather than iron-containing hemoglobin for oxygen transport, so their blood is blue when oxygenated rather than red. Hemocyanin is made of many individual subunit proteins, each of which contains two copper atoms and can bind one oxygen molecule. Too much copper, and the shrimp will have oxygen starved blood and suffocate. Copper will kill anything will "blue" blood. The magic amount for your shrimp depends on many things including species tolerance, dissolved oxygen levels, fertilzation frequency, aquarium volume, etc. There are so many variables that all serious shrimp breeders (both hobbiest and farmer for consumption) would never put copper in a tank at any leve/amountl. If you want to go heavy with the inverts you need to avoid copper additives. Before dying outright, copper posioned shrimp commonly become white, reproduce less frequently, females abort eggs, die during molting, spend more time at the top of tank (if accessible), and/or pass away during the night in planted tanks. 

Copper definately wouldnt kill all of them in 4 hours like that. Most likely water temperature shock. 

~ Aloha


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I am not debating whether copper can kill shrimp, caffine can kill you as well, but not at low doses, just like most any drug or nutrient.

At issue is whether or not Flourish, TMG etc can kill shrimp at higher levels, specifically cherries and Amanos, which I have more than I can count.
They are breeding like flies.

I've tested very high chronic levels of traces for many years and have added the upper ranges of traces routinely to my tanks without ever seeing any evidence of shrimp death/health issues.

Now if Cu kills shrimp and you want to express yourself about that fact fine, but not one of you have given any idea of what *specific ranges of Cu *and trace additions we are talking about.

Now 200mls of Flourish in a 20 gallon tank is 40X the suggested maximum dosing I give for a heavily planted high light /CO2 enriched tank.
and I tend to give richer nutrient dosing advice compared to about everyone.

Not one shrimp death/issue in over 6 years(Amano's) or so of keeping many of the them in tanks. So if that amount does not kill a shrimp, why would it stand to reason that traces possess enough Cu in them to cause any adverse effects? I've kept Cherries for about 1.5 years now

I'm not saying what killed the shrimp(many possible reasons there), *I'm saying what it is not*.

Such small relative amounts in the traces, even at pretty rich levels will not harm these shrimps.

I have hard numbers/volumes specifically on the critters in question and the product in question with zero fatalities over long time frames with various tap water KH's ranging from 1 to 11 and many other variables without issue. So do many other folks in our club.

Now if the Cu in traces kills shrimp, please do tell how much I need to add to kill/harm the shrimps.......................???
Give me a no#.

I disagree that any amount will hurt them, after all, copper is used as nutrient in us and the shrimps.........

Unless you want to add some 40X or more over EI rich dosing............few would waste their traces at that high level either

Serious shrimp breeder or not, I cannot stop the suckers from breeding and I add a lot of traces daily or 3x a week at 5mls per 20 gal of water.

So I know at the levels I add, it's not copper killing this person's shrimp and that adding traces even at high levels over many years has no adverse effects on them. I'ver added 2x this amount and dosed 6x a week also without issue with Amano shrimps and ghost shrimps for 6 weeks. 

There are many folks in our local club that add lots of TMG or flourish and have lots of breeding cherries and folks have KH's from 1- to 14 in our local area. They breed like flies so everyone has more than they care for at this point in the club. Everyone adds traces at fairly rich levels without issue.

Now if there is an issue with any copper being added, how come none of us have had any issues?

Copper hysteria it sounds like to me, rather than trying it and actually seeing if the supposed evil copper is doing the deeds claimed under aquarium's conditions.

If what folks claim is true, I ought to be able to repeat the test and see similar results, I've already done the observation/test for a long time.......so I know it's not the traces' copper content.

Where are all my dead shrimp?
How much do I need to add and for how long to kill or otherwise harm the shrimp?

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## alohamonte (Jul 25, 2006)

I hope this helps with the numbers.

Copper in Fresh & Marine Waters. Levels of copper in fresh and salt water have been found to be generally low. Studies of raw, untreated fresh water in the US have shown copper contents ranging from 0.001 milligrams per liter to 0.28 milligrams per liter. The mean was 0.015 milligrams per liter. In open oceans, copper levels ranged from 0.1 milligrams per liter to 0.39 milligrams per liter, with an average of 0.18 milligrams per liter. These figures show how copper is effective in small quantities. 

Copper in Fish and Aquatic Life. The normal level of copper in whole fish tissue is on the order of one to two parts per million. The amount of copper and other trace minerals in the growth and development of crustaceans (shellfish) and mollusks are minute in quantity measuring less than one part per ten million.

Copper in Aquatic Plants. Aquatic plants are reliant on copper, which plays an important role in photosynthesis and respiration. Plants get copper that is dissolved in the water, as well as copper that is present in particles, sediment, and in food. 

I pulled this data from a number of different studies on the net. IMHO, hobbyists should not add copper to tanks with inverts. There is more than enough copper in tap water and fish food. I would hate to think of any serious hobbyist intentionally posioning their animals. 

~ Aloha


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## Toysoldier (Aug 2, 2006)

i mean of course we are not adding copper directly to tank with inverts. Just that the traces contain copper and is this indirectly intentionally posioning animals ? :icon_roll


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