# 70 Gallon Manzygumi/Woodagumi display



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Another reason to do this tank was the fact I have lots of nice manzy for hardscaping, often what some call dull and unattractive.........and yet they can be used in many ways to make an effective hardscape (and often much cheaper than that one single big whopper). 

I'll post a pic or two of what I mean with the smaller branches when you form them together to make a nice looking stump effect on the concrete later in the next couple of days also.


----------



## Capsaicin_MFK (Nov 15, 2009)

Still only 5 tanks at the house or did you give in?


----------



## Dollface (Sep 30, 2008)

Neat, I had a similar idea a couple years ago.


----------



## fusiongt (Nov 7, 2011)

Cool keep us updated and more pics of course!


----------



## Geniusdudekiran (Dec 6, 2010)

That, Tom, is something very few people can pull off. Looks great!


----------



## IWANNAGOFAST (Jan 14, 2008)

Looks great Tom! Is this the one in your office that had the white sand?


----------



## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

Great idea. I have a piece that I got from you that I was considering using in the tank for that same function. Aquascaping rock is ridiculously expensive and as much as I would like a hardscape tank I cannot bring myself to spending the orbital amounts they want to fetch for these things.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Capsaicin_MFK said:


> Still only 5 tanks at the house or did you give in?


Still 5.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

IWANNAGOFAST said:


> Looks great Tom! Is this the one in your office that had the white sand?


Yep, stop by in 2 months and it should be looking good.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

demonr6 said:


> Great idea. I have a piece that I got from you that I was considering using in the tank for that same function. Aquascaping rock is ridiculously expensive and as much as I would like a hardscape tank I cannot bring myself to spending the orbital amounts they want to fetch for these things.


Well, as someone who sells wood, and having access to loads of fragmented burl rock like pieces, I think it's just one of those things, *show and do, not talk.*

No amount of obvious talk will illustrate what a pic will.

I show folks this:

















No one sees the potential.

I show them this:









Everyone wants it.


Each has it's own use, but the rock and smaller branches actually are more useful for most scape goals.


----------



## demonr6 (Mar 14, 2011)

I saw the potential in that stump, enough that it was in my nano for a while but now going to enjoy upgrading to the 20L as an artificial rock.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Manzy is lots cheaper than most decent rock.


----------



## Centromochlus (May 19, 2008)

Nice tank Tom! I'm glad to see that you decided to use these stumps in another tank. I was a huge fan of your brass tetra cube. 

I assume that awesome tree-like driftwood (which i'm convinced might be a work of some higher power) isn't for sale/is already sold?

(Sorry i'm not helping your cause. :hihi


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

That looks good. Not a lot of contrast with the AS, but won't matter once it fills in. Is the surface ripple from the return or a hair dryer?


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Very convincing and should have a ton of character. Looking forward to this.

I know you are the manzi guy on the forum but I personally don't like the "ADA" style manzi scapes. I never did anything like this but I have used plenty of wood that was more level with substrate than vertical and I do like that. This will look fantastic. Your layout, combined with your choice of shapes is much better than many can do with rocks. Great job, looking forward to this.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

AzFishKid said:


> Nice tank Tom! I'm glad to see that you decided to use these stumps in another tank. I was a huge fan of your brass tetra cube.
> 
> I assume that awesome tree-like driftwood (which i'm convinced might be a work of some higher power) isn't for sale/is already sold?


I have that same piece of Cypress for sale if you want from the Brass tetra cube:hihi:

I have sets of the burls for sale in the thread batch no# 8 right now.
I'll be heading up there before the pesky old man winter dumps 5 ft more of snow this week.

They do not photograph well with the character however. People just do not think about them like rock. It's like getting kids to eat veggies. :tongue:
I might take the piece out with the rock on it and modify it or switch with another piece I have.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

houseofcards said:


> That looks good. Not a lot of contrast with the AS, but won't matter once it fills in. Is the surface ripple from the return or a hair dryer?


I do not do any photo embellishments, only did the hair dryer once. No flash, no equipment removal, nothing. This is exactly the way the tank looks.

I had white sand and gloss prior, but I nor anyone could tell if the gloss was there or not due to washed out contrast color.

I said to heck with it and took out 3 sacks of ADA AS.

Just was not working, like the Gloss in the 120 gal, this will fill in and be weedy. I also have an ATI fixture that will really kick some butt and I have several new types of T5 bulbs to try out.

I was trying some CO2 ideas out prior also, with an unsealed sump. The sealing really reduces the CO2 loss by a huge margin. The O2 however is not effected at all with the sealing. Needed to measure them before moving on and back to the old sealed method.

Also, I pushed the limits on NH4 leaching and adding new shrimp asap.
At around 1 week or less really after planting(3 days actually). 

They are fine.

Plants have perked up and should be sending roots down. Added NAA and IAA hormones to see/what the heck I have them sitting here. There's no control obviously, but no harm either.


----------



## zenche (Feb 9, 2011)

cool concept, glad to see someone putting it into practice!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> Very convincing and should have a ton of character. Looking forward to this.
> 
> I know you are the manzi guy on the forum but I personally don't like the "ADA" style manzi scapes. I never did anything like this but I have used plenty of wood that was more level with substrate than vertical and I do like that. This will look fantastic. Your layout, combined with your choice of shapes is much better than many can do with rocks. Great job, looking forward to this.


Most manzy scapes are nice, but while I like what others do, I do not really care to copy the trends. Never really did. I think both methods can be effective, but it depends on the personal aesthetics/goal. 

I view wood a bit differently than many I suppose. I sell and collect it, I've collected it for decades actually, long before I was into plants. But the bottom line is having nice interesting hardscape materials to work with and then apply them in a different way. If Amano/ADa had access to this wood, they would likely use it in a similar manner as I have here.

I like Iwagumi and Suiseki, Bonsai obviously...........I've done a few 1/2 hearted attempts but added too much stuff, or never had the right tank shape or filter or light or hardscape rocks, even after going through 1000lbs of seriryu stone......

Wood? Frigging took me 10 minutes.

The ADA As works well for the plants, and the contrast is better/development easier to see also.

More rooty approaches and stump building is great and looks really nice, I can do that as well, much like some of the ADA trends.......but I only have 5 tanks and 3 of them are filled and the other is reef.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You can add few of these to the reach of this piece........ to form a classic CAU or ADA high ranking tank:
























No need for the perfect epic piece since you can adjust each branch to suit the scape perfectly, then hide the ends in the weeds to make it appear like it is all one piece of wood.

Still, the goal here was to highlight these burl fragments that are really quite useful as rock like substitutes. So you can use the burls and the branches and the entire tree, the roots actually are terrible and all spongy air wood.


----------



## NeocaridinaCollector (Mar 12, 2011)

Very nice layout, and nice wood pieces.
If you don't mind me asking, is there any particular reason why you didn't use the DSM?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

NeocaridinaCollector said:


> Very nice layout, and nice wood pieces.
> If you don't mind me asking, is there any particular reason why you didn't use the DSM?


Biofilter was already established (why waste that??), so I could add Amano shrimp sooner, and also to compare the rates of growth with this method, vs the DSM.


----------



## TactusMortus (Jun 28, 2011)

I miss your brass tetra cube that tank was epic. This one should look pretty cool filled in. Just gotta say rocks just have a better look to them in these iwagumi type setups in my opinion. I think it has a lot to do with the contrast they have from a gray to bright green. I am sure if anyone could prove my opinion wrong it will be you though. I look forward to seeing how this one looks once filled in.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

what filter is that hanging on the back?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

TactusMortus said:


> I miss your brass tetra cube that tank was epic. This one should look pretty cool filled in. Just gotta say rocks just have a better look to them in these iwagumi type setups in my opinion. I think it has a lot to do with the contrast they have from a gray to bright green. I am sure if anyone could prove my opinion wrong it will be you though. I look forward to seeing how this one looks once filled in.


The wood will redden up and the HC will fill in, reddish and bright green is not a strong contrast?

The Ohko rock is reddish also.

Worked pretty good there.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> what filter is that hanging on the back?


CPR overflow prefilter for a wet/dry


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Very nice Tom! What are the dimensions of the tank?

Surprised you splurged for a dimmable ATI -- that's a lot of $$ for lights for someone that likes lower PAR


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

TactusMortus said:


> Just gotta say rocks just have a better look to them in these iwagumi type setups in my opinion. I think it has a lot to do with the contrast they have from a gray to bright green. I am sure if anyone could prove my opinion wrong it will be you though. I look forward to seeing how this one looks once filled in.


I have done something kind of like this and you will be surprised how great the wood will look. That wood will have so much character. I can see it in my head already. It will feel very "bonsai" like and the wood will give it a very nice aged look. I know you said if anyone can prove you wrong it would be Tom. I am just saying, in a friendly way, he will prove you wrong, haha. Again, I have done something similar and in this type of scape, the wood has a different "persona" than a typical wood hard scape. Sorry, I am just really excited to see this, especially since Tom has some of the most interesting wood and instead of going with a crazy "center piece", he is using what other people would think of as scraps.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zergling said:


> Very nice Tom! What are the dimensions of the tank?
> 
> Surprised you splurged for a dimmable ATI -- that's a lot of $$ for lights for someone that likes lower PAR


Nice programmable, dimmer, 1 cord, nice spread(unlike Tek's 36" hood), got tired of messing with LED config's.

Gives lots of options.

36Lx24Dx18H


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> Sorry, I am just really excited to see this, especially since Tom has some of the most interesting wood and instead of going with a crazy "center piece", he is using what other people would think of as scraps.


Like the French selling you offal and calling it gourmet

It's really true, you can see Amano take a single so so piece of wood, and make a very nice scape.

The other thing is the wood matches and matches the wood and the rock like pieces, and the soil.

It's not often you see sand different colors than the rocks it is ground down from and it's not quite, but pretty close to the same color as the ADA AS.
After the shrimp have their way, the wood will clean up some but remain fairly dark.


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

plantbrain said:


> It's not often you see sand different colors than the rocks it is ground down from and it's not quite, but pretty close to the same color as the ADA AS.
> After the shrimp have their way, the wood will clean up some but remain fairly dark.


That's exactly how the tank I did looked. I was using small pieces of wood for terracing. But, all the little cracks and veins will give it a lot of personality. Like a really well done bonsai tree, it has all these little tiny things that combined give it huge sense of detail, age, and just "solidness". You can say the same about rocks, the wood just has a different appeal. If I didn't already have a good idea how it would look, I would just think its "fun" but you should have used rocks. Sorry, not trying to be "that guy" who is trying to give out to much praise, I just think this is going to be one of the better tanks I have seen in awhile.


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Nice programmable, dimmer, 1 cord, nice spread(unlike Tek's 36" hood), got tired of messing with LED config's.
> 
> Gives lots of options.
> 
> 36Lx24Dx18H


Sweet lights, sweet tank dimensions, sweet scape. Is the tank a custom rimless tank like all your others?


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it looks like that prefilter allows you to have a pretty high water level. is that level close to flush with the rim of the tank or is that just appearance im getting from the shot? i like to keep my water level high. i think it looks good that way and since im thinking of converting over to a sump style filter system i'd like to know my options. i like that overflow since it does not use a U shaped siphon. i like how its built in and adjustable.


----------



## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Love it Mr. Barr. Very simplistic approach with resource material on hand. To be honest, I really like the contrast. Will look sharp when the HC grows in. Should really make the wood stand out as substantial voids in the scape and make the plants really pop.

Any thoughts on implementing some other plant species down the road? _B. japonica _would be an interesting blend of plant matter in the nooks and crannies between some of the burls, if done tastefully and let go to its full potential. 

Or even stripped apart marimo balls and stuffed in here or there. Just some ideas.

Either way, you get a roud: and a :bounce:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

talontsiawd said:


> That's exactly how the tank I did looked. I was using small pieces of wood for terracing. But, all the little cracks and veins will give it a lot of personality. Like a really well done bonsai tree, it has all these little tiny things that combined give it huge sense of detail, age, and just "solidness". You can say the same about rocks, the wood just has a different appeal. If I didn't already have a good idea how it would look, I would just think its "fun" but you should have used rocks. Sorry, not trying to be "that guy" who is trying to give out to much praise, I just think this is going to be one of the better tanks I have seen in awhile.


Well, I try not to do things folks have done prior.........but they are hardly novel either, taking some ideas already done, and then applying them in a new way perhaps.

There is little True real creativity. This is true with ferts, sediments, etc, not just scaping.

We just apply it on a human scale to fit into our aquariums, or our small areas in our home or small garden spaces. Much of this aesthetic is really very practical.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zergling said:


> Sweet lights, sweet tank dimensions, sweet scape. Is the tank a custom rimless tank like all your others?


Yep, I've actually not had a 90cm/3ft tank in 20 some years, but always sort of liked them, but 2,4ft lighting always was a practical consideration, but it's a nicer dimension than 4ft really, I like this and the 6ft long tanks the most personally.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> it looks like that prefilter allows you to have a pretty high water level. is that level close to flush with the rim of the tank or is that just appearance im getting from the shot? i like to keep my water level high. i think it looks good that way and since im thinking of converting over to a sump style filter system i'd like to know my options. i like that overflow since it does not use a U shaped siphon. i like how its built in and adjustable.


I have several acrylic shims so I can easily adjust the height if the screws that do the adjustment do not fit correctly etc also. I leave about 1" to the lip.

the shot is also at play there, I cropped the edge of the tank out.

There's a trade off for no U shaped siphon though.
I use a Tom's aqualifter to remove any bubble build up and make sure they are running right, no clogging etc.

There are few perfect overflows for planted tanks. I think Reef folks have it much easier personally.

I use them for aesthetics mostly, not reliability.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Gatekeeper said:


> Love it Mr. Barr. Very simplistic approach with resource material on hand. To be honest, I really like the contrast. Will look sharp when the HC grows in. Should really make the wood stand out as substantial voids in the scape and make the plants really pop.
> 
> Any thoughts on implementing some other plant species down the road? _B. japonica _would be an interesting blend of plant matter in the nooks and crannies between some of the burls, if done tastefully and let go to its full potential.
> 
> ...


Yes, I'll be interested to see where this turkey flies.

I think a "mini Blyxa" would be nice, but the Blyxa weed forest in my 180 is another matter. I want to keep this simple in the plant display and this will accent the rock like wood more effectively.

Perhaps later: Lileopsis might be a nice cool green effect as would some Crypt x willisii in those sections.

Hair grass will form a mesh with HC that's hard to mange, but good mows will help.

The ATI lights will afford me any PAR range, Bulb spacing combos and dimmer options I can conjure up. 

I'll grow the snot out of the plants, they back off the light and reduce the trim work/effort.

The tank is eye level to my right at the desk. A good use of space and human factors.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Added the ATI last night, measured the luight out put. Their marketing claims are correct.

The unit puts out 50% more umol of PAR than the TEK light which were pretty good.

I get 400umol at the surface @14" and 120 along the bottom @36".

Unlike the LED's and many other light set ups, this one comes with a nice easy to use controller and dimmer. So I can set the dawn to dusk setting as follows: 

0-25% for the 1st 2 hours.
25-100% for the next 2 hours
100% for 1 hour
100-25% for 2 hours
25-0% for 2 hours.

Total time will be about 9 hours, but the energy is actually less/same than if I ran 2 x 60 W worth of LED's for 10 hours straight.

Fixture cost is similar between these two.
Light spread is wider and more even than LED's.

There is a 50 hour 100% bulb burn in period, which means I'll be driving the growth and algae potential high, but I have plenty of water changes and mature filter, and lots of Amano shrimp in place already.

I placed some of the Erio setaceum from the other tank where the shrimp attacked them(mostly the Fire shrimp oddly). They would look nice in here, but it's mostly going to be all HC.


----------



## NeocaridinaCollector (Mar 12, 2011)

Very cool. 
So at 100% you'll have 120umol at the substrate?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

NeocaridinaCollector said:


> Very cool.
> So at 100% you'll have 120umol at the substrate?


Yep, that's some nuke power lighting.

Eg, SPS Reef intensities.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

New light is really intense according to the meter, better spread etc.

Plants have not really done much, but they will in a week or so. No algae, plenty of shrimp ready if there was, maybe 40-50 shrimp.

Doing 2x a week, 70% water changes.
dosing about 4ppm of PO4, 8 ppm of NO3, GH booster and traces to about 0.2ppm for now.

Likely will stick with this, but might add more traces and a little more NO3 perhaps.


----------



## FromLaredo (Dec 22, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> Nice programmable, dimmer, 1 cord, nice spread(unlike Tek's 36" hood), got tired of messing with LED config's.
> 
> Gives lots of options.
> 
> 36Lx24Dx18H


PB I have been thinking about getting this light, would you say it gives a nice night light effect when dimmed down all the way or is an LED set up still better?


----------



## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

Were you the one who had the cube tank with a big (I think cypress) wood piece that looked like a mountain?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

FromLaredo said:


> PB I have been thinking about getting this light, would you say it gives a nice night light effect when dimmed down all the way or is an LED set up still better?


I own one of these, and not the LED, that should give an indirect answerroud:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

madness said:


> Were you the one who had the cube tank with a big (I think cypress) wood piece that looked like a mountain?


Yep, did you want to buy that piece of wood? n:icon_mrgr


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

The HC has started spreading runners about 1" or so, it'll really take off in a week or so. I'll do an update mid week.


----------



## madness (Jul 31, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Yep, did you want to buy that piece of wood? n:icon_mrgr


I just found old pictures of that tank and was thinking how cool it was to use the wood rather than a rock and then I stumbled upon this thread the next day.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

madness said:


> I just found old pictures of that tank and was thinking how cool it was to use the wood rather than a rock and then I stumbled upon this thread the next day.


Well, when I have a ton of it, and few rock.........and I sell it......and no one sees the good traits.....well......you sort have no choice, the tank makes that choice for you.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

just curoius. how do you keep 120umol at the substrate and keep things clean? i know u have a good cleanup crew and ur going to be doing massive wc. but would it be possible to keep that up as the tank matures and u lower the frequency of the wc's?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> just curoius. how do you keep 120umol at the substrate and keep things clean? i know u have a good cleanup crew and ur going to be doing massive wc. but would it be possible to keep that up as the tank matures and u lower the frequency of the wc's?


No algae yet, but 70% water change every 3 days, etc, I'll reduce the light intensity after the HC grows in a bit. Otherwise I'll end up cleaning the glass soften and trimming way too much.

The ATI requires a 50 hour burn in period before I can start usign the dimmers, this will increase bulb life considerable. 120umol is only for about 1-2 hours. The rest of the time, it's less.

I will test and see what intensity and duration settings I like the most, but I can run the light in many different dimming and ramp up the light for a brief time and then taper off.

This should still produce nice growth, but my duration will be short.
I like 7-9 hour photoperiods with higher burst and 10 for low light systems.
I'll likely keep on the water change frequency, this suits things well till the tank has fully matured and stabilized the way I want.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i did some research. those lights look pretty friggin cool. that might be a future christmas present to myself. right now im still playing with my tek.
ashame they come in white. i'd have to paint mine black


on a side note. i've read you primarily use aquasoil now. i know it reduces ph. how much do you usually see drop?


----------



## mountaindew (Dec 10, 2008)

Nice quality clean setup.
This can be trimmed and sculpted into a different look every few weeks.
Will enjoy following thread updates.
mD


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i did some research. those lights look pretty friggin cool. that might be a future christmas present to myself. right now im still playing with my tek.
> ashame they come in white. i'd have to paint mine black
> 
> 
> on a side note. i've read you primarily use aquasoil now. i know it reduces ph. how much do you usually see drop?


Depends, on how long after, a year or two, not much if any.
Some times around 5.6-5.8 etc, but my tap is excellent and low KH, low GH.

Yes, they are cool lights, mostly reef folks use them, and they have a religious following and they will poo poo Tek owners.

I thought it was all huff, but I stand corrected, the marketing is in fact correct. The Reef folks measure and test this stuff a lot more than the FW plant folks EVER will/do.

Zealots I tell ya:hihi:
Which is a good thing.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

mountaindew said:


> Nice quality clean setup.
> This can be trimmed and sculpted into a different look every few weeks.
> Will enjoy following thread updates.
> mD


the HC has grown over 1" in the last week. So roots and spread is on the march so to speak.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Noticed some small green algae along the water change line in the tank today finally.

Wood has matured almost fully, I'm going to make a special custom Stainless steel grate to keep the Amano shrimps from crawling into the prefilter.

Those SS mesh used for moss squares should work nicely.
The plastic mesh is too large, and the other mesh plastic is too small, but the SS is just right.

Added 2 Aquaflora Giesemann bulbs today, looks nicer.
Not so blue.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

1 Week in:


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

looks good. the "burn in" for the lights is definitely giving your cleanup crew something to work with 

looks spiffy so far!

also i don't think i've have the patience for so much HC


----------



## dragonsong93 (Nov 25, 2011)

Great looking scape!


----------



## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

This is the type of tank that I want to do in my bedroom(if the wife allows it). I would of course do a nano version on my night stand.

I may be hitting you up for some small peices of wood soon. roud:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dempsey said:


> This is the type of tank that I want to do in my bedroom(if the wife allows it). I would of course do a nano version on my night stand.
> 
> I may be hitting you up for some small peices of wood soon. roud:


So will you make the switch to ada aqua soil then??

No going back.
It really is helpful. Particular for scaping anf folk that do not make mess when uprooting etc.

Tank had minor bit of glass algae meaning I cleaned the glass on the bottom 4-5 inches 1x since set up........ 5 min later nice and clean and the last pic is 2 hours later. Clean and no issues.

I used stainless steel mesh to keep the shrimp out of the over flow, this works quite well and was easy to cut to size. easy to care for.......but I'll start some minor trim next week, then trim about 1x week, maybe 20 min or less. 

I did dose excel, but felt it melted the HC a little at the initial phases.
So that quickly stopped after 4 days.

Wood keeps maturing, shrimp are all healthy, time for pleco/otto cat.

I have a fair amount of wood burl frags like these, the problem is that it does not photo well.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> looks good. the "burn in" for the lights is definitely giving your cleanup crew something to work with
> 
> looks spiffy so far!
> 
> also i don't think i've have the patience for so much HC


I'll tell you, it's not near as bad as we like to think.
Do one thing, then do it right.

Same, but not 100% with my Starougyne repens in the 180, it's more forgiving, but the labor is similar. This tank will be easier. Lights have had their burn time and I just started the dimmcomuter settings. HC has started to advance and spread, maybe 3-4 week, should be filled, *CO2 is optimized. *

I do not know what ppm the CO2 is(yet), but I have cool plan for that coming up. I have gone away from using bps, ph etc.....more based on plants and tapering from there. If something is not right, I'm pretty much sure it's CO2 in this case: algae, growth, lulls/stunting, certain "canaries" plant species.......

Still, a nice CO2 reference cell is what I am planning, then I can measure things without interferences. 

The Erio I took out of the 120, is doing great in this tank, those pesky hungry shrimp pestered it, I have maybe 20 Amano shrimp, but they get fed and do not seem to pester the fine needles on the Erio. I think it's all those Fire shrimp.

Still have not decided on what fish to put in here. The T moorii was the original plan........white white dolomite gravel. I did not like the appearance of the white sand against green foreground plants, I still don't.

At least not for this tank.

It works well in a couple of tanks I've done, and the ADA non CO2 I have.......but the growth and care is much better with the ADA AS.

Overall, UG and HC are somewhat close regarding care and trimming. This would also be a nice tank using UG as long as it was trimmed well.
Same for most weedy carpeting plants. I was going to do this tank using Gloss and the white sand......but looking at the contrast between the Gloss and white sand, blah......screw it, redo it and make it look like I want rather than forcing a look.
Other nice thing is the tank looks just like you see in the pic, I have not added/removed anything.

I prefer that. Mostly cause I'm too lazy to remove things for pics and have not used a flash in years on a picture session.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

it has an odd appeal but im still a fan of the darker substrate.

so if we go AS we wont go back huh? i've been considering it for the future as this round of flourite has been painfully awful. root circulation is terrible. even my MTS don't go very far down..blah blah.. anyways i look forward to future shots


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> it has an odd appeal but im still a fan of the darker substrate.
> 
> so if we go AS we wont go back huh? i've been considering it for the future as this round of flourite has been painfully awful. root circulation is terrible. even my MTS don't go very far down..blah blah.. anyways i look forward to future shots


I think you will enjoy the ADA AS.

I do use other sediments and the look of the fish and other thing sis radically different, but for growth and plant cover, I really like ADA. A number of similar knock clay based sediments have entered the market, but most are rather $$$ for what you get, which is essentially rice paddy dirt clay that's been rolled into nice grain sizes and pressed, slightly cooked etc to retain the shape and not cloud.

It's surprising to me how long it last and how long all but the N last.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Light dimmcomputer is working as listed, pissed me off a few times, guess it was still burning in the bulbs.

Now I have a nice slow dimmer function that goes from 0-50% over 2 hours on one channel, then 0-100% for the other channel over 30 min and then they stay at peak 100% for 2 hours total then the high channel goes off over the next 30 min, then the last channel urns off dimming over the last 2 hours.

Total time is 8 hours, but I use less energy that if I had 120 W of LED's running 10 hours.

And, it's more NATURAL since every just LOVES to use that term. The dimming function is smoother than the LED dimmers. It's quite nice.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i believe a video is in order for function of lights.. or maybe timed pictures


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i believe a video is in order for function of lights.. or maybe timed pictures


BTW, it looks as cool as they sound. The dimming is really subtle and nice.
I suppose I could set the tripod up and do it.

I'm going to remove the LED's from the Reef and use these (I have another ATI fixture). Anyone want to buy 2 nice used 60W LEd fix with dimmers for each? No controller. 

500$ for both and ship is only 15$ ea.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Had some weird looking grey snot algae? Anyway, a big water changes took care of it right away.



















My bonsai wasabi:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You can see the Erio recovering after the shrimp attack in the 120 Gal.

I may do a nice row somewhere through this tank or in the rear somewhere.

Fires went after it really hard for some reasons(likely very hungry even though I add lots of food.), Amano's leave it alone.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

nad u even do bonsai shrubbs.. wow.. man of trades i tell ya.
i've wanted to do one but the time is't available as of right now..

VERY cool


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Tom, how often will you be mowing down the HC in this tank? Every 4 weeks like glosso, or less?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zergling said:


> Tom, how often will you be mowing down the HC in this tank? Every 4 weeks like glosso, or less?


Likely about the same as the Starougyne. 4-6 week intervals.


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

plantbrain said:


> Likely about the same as the Starougyne. 4-6 week intervals.


Cool, thanks.

Have you decided on what fish to put? I'm thinking a school of some very small species would make the tank / scape look bigger / more vast than it is. No?


----------



## chris.rivera3 (Apr 15, 2008)

Is this another tank made by LeeMar? or did you go with a different manufacturer?




plantbrain said:


>


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

chris.rivera3 said:


> Is this another tank made by LeeMar? or did you go with a different manufacturer?


Leemar.


----------



## Dempsey (Oct 27, 2009)

plantbrain said:


> So will you make the switch to ada aqua soil then??
> 
> No going back.
> It really is helpful. Particular for scaping anf folk that do not make mess when uprooting etc.
> ...


I may be switching all of my tanks to AS to be honest. Starting with my 75 and then working on the others.

I will let yo know the size of the tank that I want to do this in and I'm sure you could pic some peices out that would look good. roud:


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Dempsey said:


> I may be switching all of my tanks to AS to be honest. Starting with my 75 and then working on the others.
> 
> I will let yo know the size of the tank that I want to do this in and I'm sure you could pic some peices out that would look good. roud:


If you are into it and like to scape, I think most are very happy.
You will need to adjust the scape methods, trimming etc, leaving the roots in the sediment longer/just trimming the tops to bone.

I would suggest spending a fair amount fo time adjusting the scape and prepping it before any water goes in.
See the ADA non CO2 2.0 version example.

Update on the lighting, I recently bought the ATI dimmer sun module for this tank as well. I also got a larger number of bulb brands and types to play with.

The ATI has the same spread as the Tek. Should be interesting. Likely run the sucker full tilt for 2 hours, 3 hours up from 0-100% and then 100-0% for 3 hours, so 8 hours total but the lower % most of the day length will mean it's more like 5 hours worth of light. 5 hours of full wattage is less energy and the sucker will not shock everyone in the room coming on/off and I can lower the hood down to reduce light spillage.

I have about 6 brands of bulbs to play with. 

What shape of tank are you considering?
I really would advocate a wide tank, 24" or more front to back depth.

So.....you also need a wide fixture to run this also.
I have a slightly use nice white Tek fixture up for sale
You can also remove the ballast and add a dimmer ballast also, those run about 70-80$.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)




----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

AWESOME.. what's that peeking up in the background?? also im still waiting on ur opinion of the ge starcoats.. still haven't made the plunge myself.. and if dimmable ballasts are that cheap... well daddy says upgrade time

also earlier u mentioned u had some cool plans for c02? have u implemented those ideas yet or is it still in the works?


tank still looks good!


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Looking great. Can't wait to see it fill in.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> AWESOME.. what's that peeking up in the background?? also im still waiting on ur opinion of the ge starcoats.. still haven't made the plunge myself.. and if dimmable ballasts are that cheap... well daddy says upgrade time
> 
> also earlier u mentioned u had some cool plans for c02? have u implemented those ideas yet or is it still in the works?
> 
> ...


Erio setaceum type 3(giant erio basically) and then plain Erio setaceum. Fire shrimp attacked it in the 120 Gal. Both are pretty rarely offered and $$$.

The GE bulbs have a decent color rating.
I do not like them alone though.

CO2 is still a few weeks away.

I have some plant changes in store for the 120, but this is a simple tank, just plant and wait, then trim.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Erio type 3 recovery has been much better than I thought, I now have 7 nice tops. Some sections are difficult to trim and I might use this and the regular Erio setaceum in those areas.

What is interesting is the Amano shrimp even when starved, left these plants alone, yet in the 120 with the fire shrimp, they picked the plants to the bone. Ferts, Water, Sediment all the same.


Impressed with thr ATI lighting on this tank, I got one for the 120 Gal also, so those will also be the same and I might try the Erios in the tank again after getting them as healthy as possible as a good control and then see what the Fires do to it over time again. RCS/fires are not really KNOWN to attack plants as far as I know, so I want to test it a few times and see.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

HMM. thanks for the update. glad to see things are improving with the erio. maybe the erio doesn't sit well on the palette of an amano ?


----------



## gnod (Mar 24, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Had some weird looking grey snot algae? Anyway, a big water changes took care of it right away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


can you provide a little more detail on the bonsai wasabi?! i love it!!!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> HMM. thanks for the update. glad to see things are improving with the erio. maybe the erio doesn't sit well on the palette of an amano ?


I've heard they attack some plants when real hungry........but I have not seen it, I saw the RCS/fires do the deed though.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Added some ore type 3 Erio to background, not the plan for the tank however.
The plants started looking a bit wimpy, turned out....I had too little CO2.

Took some light reading at max intensity with the ATI fixture. 

@12" from the water's surface: 510 umol.
Upper slope in the rear: 180-190umol
Bottom corners/front, 125-130umol.

A boat load of light.

But it's only on that high for 4 hours, I'll likely reduce this also later.


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Tom, what bulbs are you running, and how many bulbs does that fixture have?

My 4x54W is 13" from the surface, and I was getting readings of 140-150 at the lowest part of the substrate. With the black pond netting, though, this is brought down to 110-120. 

Your tank has more space from front glass to back glass though, so your front glass is a few inches farther away from the nearest bulb than my tank.

This was when I had the GE6500K bulb at front -- this bulb was getting at least 100umol over the other bulbs when I measured right at the ATI's acrylic shield.

PS - I'm very jealous of that healthy HC. You've seen the pics of my tank, so I'm sure you know that haha!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

80 tetras.
They were beaten up bad, but are recovering and will make a strong healthy addition to the tank, nice behavior and schooling patterns.


----------



## green_valley (Sep 14, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> 80 tetras.
> They were beaten up bad, but are recovering and will make a strong healthy addition to the tank, nice behavior and schooling patterns.


Awesome Tom. Aren't they sarphae tetra?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

zergling said:


> Tom, what bulbs are you running, and how many bulbs does that fixture have?


2 mostly, those ramp to 50% after about 1 hour. 
Then a midday burst, 50% max intensity now, all 6 bulbs.
Distance is about 14" now from surface. 

Plant growth seems better.
Dialed it down for the fish also.
Still looks bright as hell.

So if you use a watt/gal conversion, X 50% 117/70 = 1.67, of which that is only on for 4 hours and the other 4 hours at either end is only 0.55 w/gal.

Using a better unit of umol/m^2/sec tell VERY different story however.
I end up using less energy than the LED option which needed to be 120 Watts for 8 hours etc to get a decent spread of light using Crees.

I have Giesemann AF(2), Giesemann Midday(3), ATI blue special(1) I'll likely Change this to something else and redwave for the front to reflect the reds off the fish nicely.

The Geisemann AF's do not look so pink in this tank like they do in my 120.



> My 4x54W is 13" from the surface, and I was getting readings of 140-150 at the lowest part of the substrate. With the black pond netting, though, this is brought down to 110-120.


I'm down to 90 umol with this and different regions might run 100, others in the 70 range, but 90 is about average. Prior when running 100%, the fixture was adding, well, about 2x this amount.



> Your tank has more space from front glass to back glass though, so your front glass is a few inches farther away from the nearest bulb than my tank.
> This was when I had the GE6500K bulb at front -- this bulb was getting at least 100umol over the other bulbs when I measured right at the ATI's acrylic shield.
> 
> PS - I'm very jealous of that healthy HC. You've seen the pics of my tank, so I'm sure you know that haha!



It looks better than it really is doing, there was no CO2 for a few days and I neglected to check the tank pressure. HC will lift up and the roots will not pull down nice and tight if the CO2 goes bad. Some good CO2, some trimming etc, it should be okay.

I'd still like and prefer to make this a mostly UG tank, with the Erios running through. Easy to deal with and nicer growth form.


----------



## sublimescorpio (Nov 6, 2011)

...I have to stop luking around this thread (I love the shape of the back right piece of wood too much!), just had to say I LOVE the addition of the Erios...


----------



## .Mko. (Sep 23, 2010)

If you ever shoot a video of this tank, I'd love to see the schooling pattern of this huge group of tetras. I hope they make a full and healthy recovery.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They should color up and get much healthier over the next 2-3 months.
Really a nice fish when taken care of well.

the white stuff is GH booster BTW. you will see in on the wood and gravel in the middle of the tank.


----------



## zergling (May 16, 2007)

Haha that's a lot of fish! Very nice contrast after contrast after contrast with the wood, hc, and fish!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

A Video is in the works.


----------



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

SWEET!!
you do realize there must be a timed capture of the sunrise sunset effect of the ati fixture

even if u haveto cut frames to be time lapsed in essence. so its not 8 hours long. we want to see it happen for those of us not cool enough to have a dimmable fixture


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Banner before the main bank of lights goes off.










With just the two aquaflora bulbs


----------



## talontsiawd (Oct 19, 2008)

Now that looks awesome. I think Serpae Tetra's are really nice looking. I have only had had them as a beginner, in a small tank, and they were way to aggressive for what I was doing. Only a few of min were very vibrant as yours seem super healthy and "blood 'Orange-Red'" lol. Scape looks great, fish compliment it very well.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

They have not fully colored up yet, in a few more weeks of stuffing them full, they will be pretty nice, they ate 3 Amano shrimp, good sized ones, not the little ones, they hit on them if they swim the water column, same behavior/family as piranha.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

That looks good. I love these wide open species tanks. Not in love with the stem in the back. I think it takes away a bit from the nice work you did with the wood, but that's just a personal observation. One of the hardest things I find with setups like this is not adding things over time.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I had little else to put the plant since the fire shrimp attacked them in the 120. The HC does not grow too well in the rear due to shading. I could add more ADA AS, but........in person it looks better.


----------



## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

Ok what part of "the swap" do you live in lol, so I come hijack your amazing setup lol. Very nice, I love it!!!!!!


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Sacramento River Delta


----------



## travis.808 (Apr 6, 2009)

I really love this tank! Been lurking for awhile. Video please.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I'll be replanting later today, so the video will be some time from now.


----------



## dafil (Jul 17, 2010)

awesome scape you have!!
Mr.Barr,can you tell me in numbers-PAR when lights go on,and PAR at noon burst?


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I removed all the HC and replanted with UG, removed the Serpaes, will update.


----------



## Chyrol (Jan 18, 2012)

Can't wait for the update! I'm looking forward to seeing the UG, should look really nice.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

UG is doing well, but I have not done any transplanting till it is growing well in my 120 Gal tank.


----------



## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

Come on, Tom, update time!

Love this tank.


----------



## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Freshly planted with all Buce's:

Notes: I have had some Buce;s that have thrived in here regardless of the abuses and other things I've done, mostly due to a lot of Amano shrimp.
Few water changes, very clear water, dosing roughly 1/3 EI, basically maybe 1-2x a week dosing and a little traces.

CO2 is pretty high, but the plant's demand is low also.
There is not heater in this tank.

I removed the lava rock faux ADA powersand, it did nothing and started to come up through the ADA after a year or so. Added some old ADA AS to replace the volume. 

Bushy nose and Amano's right now.
Might add some CRS, but likely lower grades and after the plants grow in more. This will give the fry some place to hide. I have SS mesh over the overflow and will change the return pipe to a glass elbow I have in the works.

This tank is darker, but open and brightly lit. Adding a bright colored shrimp will look nice against the Buce's. Not sure if I'll add fish really. 

No heater on the tank, runs about 75-77F in the summer, maybe 70-74F in the winter. My 60p ADA will also lack a heater.


----------

