# New and fairly clueless



## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I have a 72X18X29TALL tank that I bought second hand to be a planted saltwater tank. After receiving the setup, it is a freshwater tank and came with a single Magnum 350 cannister that I believe is more appropriate for a tiny tank. Also came with a Magnum 350 diatomizer that is missing parts. So much for trusting people online, eh?

I now want to set this thing up as a freshwater planted tank, starting with angels, then eventually moving to discus as money allows and my tank is perfect for them. Currently, I have cheap Lowe's all purpose gravel in the tank that I realize will have to come out (I was so disgusted when the tank came I was going to make it into a huge goldfish tank, but realized the tall tank would be better suited for discus AFTER hauling in and washing all that cheap gravel.)

Years ago, I successfully had a planted tank without CO2 and just plain gravel with flourescent lights and hood filter (type they sold in Japan years ago... haven't seen any here.) From reading this forum, I assume I was incredibly lucky. I am now intimidated.

Could you guys please tell me how I should go about getting this thing setup? I assume I'll use the Magnum for dispersing the CO2 later when I can afford it since I have so much to buy to start?

Substrate? Filter that will do a great job for this tank? I prefer trickle/sumps, but have read I'll have to deal with canisters to have freshwater. I will definitely want to add in a sump/trickle/something so that I can add water from the bottom. I am too old to lift 5 gallon buckets high enough to pour through the canopy of this tall setup until I can afford plumbing to automate the water changes.

Also, I would like to design the thing so that I can add pieces into it, eventually automating it so that I can go visit my grandchildren for a few weeks; so I'll have to later plumb it, add dechlorinators, CO2, etc... etc... etc..

As for plants, I don't want the tank solid with plants. I will have bogwood, rocks, and plants strategically placed around them. I want to leave plenty of gravel showing for the fish food and I like free space. I guess a "medium" density is more my speed which, from reading this forum and a few others, sounds like a recipe for disaster, especially since I'd like to do it without CO2 and a bazillion water changes for discus (realize this is probably unrealistic, but telling you what I'd like in a perfect world; so that I didn't have to replumb the house.)

Any suggestions you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated.


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Welcome to TPT!

There is no reason AT ALL to be intimidated! 

It sounds to me like you want to stick with a low tech tank. If that's your goal, then you can use whatever filter works best for you and your budget and certainly don't HAVE to go with a canister, b/c you don't HAVE do inject CO2! (Getting good CO2 distribution through a tank that size can be tricky and is typically costly; you'd have to get a pressurized setup plus some additional diffusing equipment... you can always upgrade later if you change your mind and go that route.)

You will definitely want GOOD filtration on the tank, though- especially if you want to keep discus, which are very messy eaters. If you want to use a sump, there's no reason not to. CO2 outgassing simply isn't an issue if you aren't injecting CO2 in the first place. :thumbsup:

If your goal is a moderately planted tank, then stick with low lighting. Getting your lighting just right will be THE key to growing plants without needing CO2. What lighting do you have now, if any? IMO this right here is where you need to spend the most time researching and deciding how much $$ you want to spend up front- picking out your fixture.

For substrate, you can also choose whatever you'd like. If you want to stick with ferns and anubias that can all be tied to rocks and driftwood, then it won't matter what substrate you use since they aren't rooted. You could even leave large plants in pots and disguise them behind rocks and wood if you want to, or just put "plant" substrate in certain areas of the tank and leave the rest with regular gravel or sand. I've seen lots of discus tanks set up this way; with the back portion of the tank planted, and the substrate separated with a barrier of some sort, and only sand or gravel in the foreground. Does help make it easier to clean up after the discus.

(Though if you plan on going to visit your grandkids for weeks at a time, I personally wouldn't recommend discus unless you have someone you can trust to look in on them while you're gone. That's a lot of $$ for fish that would probably not make it if something should go wrong while you're gone.)


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## ZooTycoonMaster (Jan 2, 2008)

For a filter, I'd recommend either the Eheim classic series or Rena FilStar series. From some people's reviews on here, the Magnum filters aren't worth it. Plus their outtake is on the surface, which will outgass most of the CO2.

With the Eheim or Rena canister filters, you can just hook up the DIY CO2 tubing to the intake of the filter, and it'll chop up the bubbles into micro-bubbles and disperse it even better (assuming the outtake is under water).

For CO2, DIY is the best option for a low-tech tank. Here's some links on DIY CO2: 
http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/DIY-Yeast-CO2/7/
http://fishlesscycling.com/forum/index.php?topic=211.0
http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Diyco2.htm
http://www.qsl.net/w2wdx/aquaria/diyco2.html

Good luck!roud:


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

What you are wanting to do is all very possible. The most difficult part is the wanting to leave the tank for week*S* at a time. How many times per year would you be looking to be gone for more than 1 week?

Automation is a wonderful thing, but stuff happens--just the way life is. :bounce: So, with someone that had a good clue to oversee or at least check on the system--_regularly_--while you were gone....it's all very feasible.

From what I get out of your dimensions is that you have roughly a 155gal Tall tank. The only thing I can really say is: _You wanna sell it?_ :icon_mrgr Just kidding! I don't think my floors could handle it. roud: But, geewhiz, that sounds like a sweet size and shape tank! roud:

Honestly, You need to make some decisions on the route you want to take. Consider what your budget is long-term and short-term. It's better to buy right and buy once then it is to keep "upgrading". But that doesn't mean that you have to buy everything right away. But some things should be decided before the first purchase....like lighting. Low light would be the best choice to start out with both from a beginner's position and for the long absences. But you may not be happy with low light over the long haul. You may want more light, C02 and everything else. If you are a progressive person that is kinda always interested in "more" or a bit of a challenge then you leave the "higher" light option open by buying more light then you currently need. If you are more of a status quo type person that is happy with something that works and don't necessarily want to fiddle with it....then you just buy the light that you need now and go with it. The need for C02 is directly dependent upon the light. So, even with the higher light option--the C02 doesn't need to be purchased until you actually start using higher light.

From a beginner's position, the long absences and the desire for open space (a non-issue really)--I would certainly recommend that you get your feet wet with lower light.

Substrate: You can use the gravel that you have, but you really do need to find out what it is made of first--it may alter your water chemistry. One popular substrate right now that is fairly inexpensive is "mineralized soil". It's great for low light tanks (not sure about higher light though) and, theoretically at least, eliminates the need to dose ferts (fertilizers). Aside from that there are a number of other options, fluorite, eco-complete, soil master select, shultz, etc. It would help you a lot to surf around looking for pictures to give you an idea of what you are looking to do.

A sump is not a big deal, but then neither is an auto-water change (WC) system. A DIY auto-WC system can be had for $150--probably less. That's about what I have into one of mine, but the dual carbon filter removes the chlorine for 4 systems total--so, its cost really gets split 4 ways for me. If you are on a well...then you probably wouldn't need the charcoal filter for the incoming water. Just have to work out the details of your particular situation. The cost for an auto-WC setup might be considerably less--again, just depends on your particular situation.

Filters is another ball of wax. Personally, you might be better off cost-wise to go with a sump. Do you have a basement? A sump in the basement could lead to endless possibilities and might just be the best route for you. Many things can be accomplished via a sump....and possibly reducing the cost of things like auto-WC, auto-dosing, mechanical filtration, etc.

I'm only about 50 miles from you. I already have the ability to do a lot of this stuff. So, I may be able to help out and get things setup for you. If nothing else I can drag Joel up there with me to help out also. You listening, Joel? You buy the coffee and I'll buy the gas......

Give us a better idea of your particular situation (basement, well water, etc) and it will be easier to go from there....roud:


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

You guys are just wonderful! Thank you so much. I stayed up all night searching a bazillion different forums and posts trying to come up with what I want to do, then had to go to work today and finally came back. I thought I had figured out what I was going to do, but now all your ideas sound better.

This is what I have... and it's not good. The tank is sitting on the outside wall of my living room that is the only place that I can put it. I do have a basement and underneath the tank is the garage door. :/ I can't put a support beam beneath or else the garage door would be blocked. LOL I have no idea if the floor will support all I want. I have filled the tank with water to give a stress test. It has been filled, with 250 pounds of that fugly gravel for 3 days. My living room floor still exists. For now. I am hoping that being on an outside wall, it has more support. I have no idea if this is true or not.

I like the idea of putting the sump and water changer beneath in the garage. I don't know what I would do about the flooring since I would have to drill permanent holes, though. I'm not overly fond of this house and hope to move out of it when my youngest gets out of college and I have more free cash. Hole drilling would necessitate replacing the wood floor. Maybe down the wall or would it be too thin to hold the plumbing? I'd also have to go around the garage door.

If going downstairs is not an option, then I'll have to put the sump under the cabinet. This is the scheme I had in mind. Please tell me if this is absolutely ridiculous and will not work. A plumber I am not; pressures are beyond me:

I thought I'd try a Hamburger Mattenfilter. One rounded in each corner with pumps behind that point toward the center of the tank. I will also have a HOB overflow(since this was a freshwater tank and not the drilled, glass-topped saltwater tank that was described to me) that will split and go into the sump on either end that will have two more Matts on each end of the sump. The return will be in the center. From studying Matt filters, flow rate is important. I believe the split will do two things... slow down the flow rate through the sump Matts and also give me more surface space for the Matts handling a stronger BIO load. Also, I was thinking I could put fry in the sump if I wanted to try to breed. Some fry might get sucked out of the OF and end up in the sump. Could they possibly hatch on their own and feed off the Matt? The sump matts will be closer to the middle to give room for any fish/fry that are accidentally sucked out of the OF (will be blocked to keep larger fish from going down the overflow).

I also thought I'd also do the Mineralized Soil thing since it sounded so promising on other threads/forums. We have rivers here with lots of clay and silt; so I thought I'd dig my own since pure top soil seems to be hard to find. For the cap, I thought I'd do black flourite unless it's a no-no for distant future discuss, in which case I'd do black sand (Worried the sand will filter through my soil though.)

Lights. I currently have some crummy, ancient T5s that will need to be replaced. I have to jiggle the tubes to get them to work. I thought I'd use them until I could afford some nicer lighting to hang from above, getting rid of the canopy that is too heavy for me to lift off and on by myself. They are double with only one switch X 2 at 36 inches each. I was unsure of the wattage since the tank is deep. 

Is the Matt filter and others ridiculous ideas? If I was to go the pressurized CO2 route, would one diffuser be enough or would I need to do more?

Thanks so much for your help, guys.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp,

Thank you for your suggestions. I may rethink the way I intended to do the substrate. I had seen a discuss tank at an LFS as you suggested, but I was thinking my tank might be too shallow to do this. From your post, I see that it is not. Yea! I liked the way the LFS had theirs setup with rocks holding back the substrate and some sand angled down to a mirrored bottom that gave the impression of a beach. The bottom of my tank isn't mirrored, btw. How does one achieve that affect? Some kind of mirror stickum one would apply to the outside bottom of the tank?


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Zootycoonmaster,

Thank you for the info on the filters. How many of the Eheims/Rena's would it require for 155 gallon TALL? I looked at the Eheim 2280? New one that self-primes, but they are expensive. I can't afford two for redundancy with that price tag. I read that canister filters have to be reprimed after a power failure which gave me the heebies as I am of an age where I have a more forgetful nature.  Is this true? How hard are the classics to maintain?


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Naja002,

Thank you for all your suggestions. I answered a few of your questions above. I'd like to be able to leave for a few weeks at least once per year. Twice would be better. I currently have a 55 gallon saltwater that I leave, but it wouldn't be such a heartbreaker if I returned to it being wiped out since the expense isn't so great. I have a trickle filter on it that I've revised that gets algae through the trickle part that keeps it clean and rocks in the bottom which has provided great bacterial filtration. The bioload is low; thus I only have to do water changes on it once every couple of months.

I'd like to start with low light and work up to higher light if I don't like the lower later. I'm a tinkerer; so when I purchase the fixture, I would indeed want one that can be changed and added to at a later date.

The substrate I have has got to go. I like smaller rocks and I chose larger rocks to keep the goldfish from swallowing them after they grew huge. The tank is empty right now which may be the cause, but the light color of the larger rocks looks stark and bright. I believe the wattage needs to come down for plants because those lights aren't having any problems reaching to the bottom. I think one set is 40 and one is 7... maybe 14.. I forget. I plan to change out the bulbs anyway to get what I need to give me time to hunt nicer lighting later.

Do I ever appreciate your offer to help me figure out the plumbing. I would love a sump in the basement. I could have a much bigger sump than the one I'd put under the cabinet due to concern over weight. A sump of any size might be the straw that breaks my living room floor's back. Also, I have large rocks that I want to put in the tank, but have yet to stick them in there out of fear that I may go crashing through the floor. LOL The floor isn't bowing, btw. I don't know if that means anything or if the floor would just give way when it goes beyond its limit.

Thanks again!


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

I read on another forum that the filter in the corners of the main tank is unnecessary since I will have two filters in the sump. Woot! The main tank will look much nicer without them.

Anybody know if I'll need to run some sort of mechanical filtration for water polishing or will the HMF keep the water clear?


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Ok, a lot of info here, so I will probably miss somethings. :thumbsup:

An outside wall is good. It's a "structural wall" and is designed to support the structure. An interior wall is basically just a partition/divider. Structural walls are working walls so-to-speak. One thing you want to look into is how the floor joists run in reference to the tank: Parallel is _not_ good, perpendicular is good. Perpendicular spreads the weight out over more floor joists.

Being over a garage door opening I don't think is so good. It has a beam across it to make up for the lack of support over the open space, but that is something that I think someone much more qualified would have to look at. You can try calling the building dept. and talk to one of their engineers. One may even come out and look at it for you--who knows? However, support can possibly be added by adding more wood to the floor joists. If your garage ceiling is finished (drywalled) then it becomes an expensive proposition. If not, then it's not a big deal.

From this online calculator I come up with a rough estimate:










That's with 4" of small diameter substrate and 1/2" glass. Can you measure the thickness of the glass? On a tank that tall it's definitely thick...I'm just not sure how thick.

So, you're looking at 1,800lbs minimum. No doubt it will go over 2,000lbs easily enough. We'll say 2,200lbs without a sump. The tank is ~9 sq ft., so that's ~245lbs per sq. ft. Again, that's something I think you should check with the building dept. It may or may not be their "area", but I think they would be very helpful. Water weighs ~8.3lbs per gal, so just keep in mind that everything that sinks (like rocks) weighs more then the water it displaces.


Going from the tank to the basement is another questionable proposition. How _bad_ do ya want it? Simply meaning that it _can_ be done--no doubt about that, but what all is involved...not sure really. No doubt that the flooring could be cut out and repaired when you sold the home. What the cost of that would be--I have no idea. Going through the wall and then down is another possibility, but then we are getting into the realm of having a professional actually do the planning and work. The plumbing, etc from the wall to the tank et al and from the basement wall/ceiling on is not a big deal. But actually getting down to the basement may be. One thing you can look at is: Is that an area in the living room that most people would put a hutch, entertainment center, sofa, etc. Is it likely that having 2 holes there would be an issue for most buyers? A buyer may have an aquarium or "always wanted one"....who knows...life is strange. If it was pointed out to a buyer and they wanted it fixed...would you be willing to bear that expense? You should be able to call around and get a ballpark idea of what the cost would be. Plus with a little forethought, it may only be one or 2 pieces of wood that would need to be replaced. It may not be that big of a deal. I assume it's hard wood flooring...the interlocking strips kind...If so, how wide are the strips?...if they vary--what are the widest ones in that area? The devil is in the details. Just keep in mind that no holes are "permanent". Whatever is done..._can_ be repaired.

There are a few folks around here that know a lot more about the details of Mattenfilters then I do. Wasserpest is one of our resident experts on the subject, I believe. Personally, I just use these Hydor #5 sponges, some pvc and a powerhead for added mechanical and biological filtration--inexpensive, works very well and quick/easy to clean. With a sump your options are almost endless. You can incorporate a mattenfilter _and_ other stuff also. Hopefully Wasserpest or someone will chime in on the mattenfilters. Personally, I wouldn't do mattenfilter(s) in the tank itself, but it is a viable option for me in a sump.

Black fluorite should not be a problem with discus, but that should probably be looked into further. Scolley chose sand for a reason, but I don't know or recall what that reason was/is. I think it was to help keep the food on the substrate surface longer for the fish to find and/or vacuuming, but I really don't remember. However, I cannot think of any reason why fluorite would be an issue.

What I was talking about with the higher light option wasn't about being able to add more--it was about buying more then you need to start with. Let's say that you could run your tank low light with 2 x 54w T5HO (just an example). If you want the high light option then you buy a light with 4 x 54w. Most come with 2 switches. So, you just run 1 bank of lights (2 x 54w) and leave the others off. Then when You decide you want higher light...you start incorporating the 2nd bank of lights...either full on, as a noon burst, etc. This also gives you the option of not having to physically replace bulbs right away when they burn out. Just use the 2nd bank instead or swap the bulbs around...good for bad.



Any chance we can get a picture(s) of the tank at the LFS that you like?

With a sump in the basement you really won't need any canister filters. That in itself can help pay for the installation and/or repairs later. Canisters have gotten expensive. :icon_eek:


You will definitely need more then one C02 diffusion source, but there are plenty of options.....:thumbsup:

Do You know what your walls are made of? Brick, block, wood....? I assume the basement walls are made of brick or block....?


HTH


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Naja nailed the reason that many discus keepers prefer sand- to keep the food on the surface since they're messy eaters. Also, it's cheap, so when you vacuum it up you aren't losing a lot of $$ (which is why I'd personally stage a "feeding area" of some sort in the tank if you want to use Flourite in the rest/majority of the tank).

As far as mirrored tank bottoms go- IME most tanks will "mirror" on their own once full of water and with a bare bottom. I'd imagine it would also be easy to put a thin mirror under the bottom of most tanks, since they rest on their frames rather than on the bottom glass.

For filtration on your tank if you end up not going the sump route, I'd go with 2 separate canisters; any combo of Eheim 2217s, Rena XP3s or XP4s, personally. Priming these filters is extremely easy, and they shouldn't ever lose prime as long as the connections stay tight and the water level doesn't drop below the filter intake.


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> Ok, a lot of info here, so I will probably miss somethings. :thumbsup:
> 
> An outside wall is good. It's a "structural wall" and is designed to support the structure. An interior wall is basically just a partition/divider. Structural walls are working walls so-to-speak. One thing you want to look into is how the floor joists run in reference to the tank: Parallel is _not_ good, perpendicular is good. Perpendicular spreads the weight out over more floor joists.
> 
> ...


Wow... Thanks so much. To start... 

The joists are perpendicular to the tank, so that part is good. There is some extra blocking around the joists for the garage door... that I guess was to ensure the wall would hold a heavy garage door. Further back in the garage and a bit to the side of where a car would sit is a steel post that supports one of the joists that holds the tank... I think. If the tank is over that joist, it would just be barely over it on one end. That joist has a bunch of thin, smaller joists butted beside each other instead of one big thick one like the rest. I have never seen (or noticed) this done in any other home that I have had. A jack leg lived here prior to my purchase and made all sorts of strange changes; so I'm guessing this may have been his doing (unless this is normal.) The floor does not appear to be bowing yet; so I'm thinking I'm fine.... so far.

The glass concernes me since you had me measure it. Prior to finding this tank online, I considered custom jobs and even entertained making the tank I wanted myself. Unless I remember incorrectly, I thought the side walls were more important than the long walls. Anyway... the 72 inch walls are 1/2 inch and the side walls are only 3/8. I remeasured the height of the tank and it is only 28 inches, not 29. I was told it was 29 when I bought it and never bothered to measure to check it. LOL It is still holding the water and was obviously used before since there were lime deposits on it; so I guess it is fine. Hope so. It is an older tank, I think. It has the fake woodgrain trim support on the top and bottom instead of all glass without any trim as had been described.

As for a building inspector, I'll see if we have such things here. We're pretty rural and have no zoning laws. At the place where I worked before, I needed a server room built and was horrified they were running aluminum wiring for my servers. When I went to the owner, he said there were no laws here concerning wiring and building, copper had gone out of sight; so we were getting aluminum. OK... you're the boss. LOL Anyway, in town, I might could hire somebody to come out and look.

The wood floor is the smaller, thicker interlocking, solid kind. The lengths do vary, but I'm sure I could find some that matches and stain them close enough that a buyer wouldn't notice. Stupid me thought that I'd have to replace the whole floor not realizing I could just pull up a few. It is also where one would have some piece of furniture; so the holes might not be that big of a deal to a buyer. It would to some, and if it was a problem, I could fix it as you say.

I think I've got the matt filter idea down. I'm going to start by putting them in the tank, cutting them large enough so they can be moved to a sump. I could at least get the tank and plants going for now. Then, after I get the plumbing in for the sump downstairs, I'll pull out the matts and stick them in the sump. If I need more filtering, I'll do so. I could have a large sump downstairs and do whatever I want. If I stuck it under the cabinet, it would have to be small to keep down the weight. Downstairs sounds much more appealing.

I understood what you meant about the lights; although my reply obviously didn't get that idea across. What I meant was that I am going to use these cheapie lights for now and replace the bulbs for low light. Then hang nice lights up top. "Nice" to me meant not only pretty, but room for expansion, such as leaving out bulbs or turning them off... whatever... giving me room to play to get the lights right.

The basement walls are cinder block. The outside of the house walls have vinyl siding. [Edited to change to vinyl. I definitely had a brain freeze on that one. LOL]

The tank I like is several hours away in NC. The next time I go there, I'll sneak some shots. It wasn't anything special... Just a 72X24X24 with the back painted black. They made a higher level by putting in rocks as a retaining wall that had rocks in which they planted "onion" plants. I know, that's not the correct name, but I haven't learned them all yet. The covered the inflows and outflows, which at the time impressed me; since all tanks I'd seen had these showing. In the front of the rocks they sloped sand that went about half way and ended in an arc that left a circular mirror that looked like a lake or lagoon at the bottom. I thought it was a cool idea and great for discus (which they had inside) because they could be fed there on the mirror.

I've been writing on this response on and off all evening. Sorry to take so long to get back to you. Friends from South FL "popped" in to see me; so my time has been limited to darting up here for a few minutes before running back downstairs (office in the attic) to entertain.

Thanks again!


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

lauraleellbp said:


> Naja nailed the reason that many discus keepers prefer sand- to keep the food on the surface since they're messy eaters. Also, it's cheap, so when you vacuum it up you aren't losing a lot of $$ (which is why I'd personally stage a "feeding area" of some sort in the tank if you want to use Flourite in the rest/majority of the tank).
> 
> As far as mirrored tank bottoms go- IME most tanks will "mirror" on their own once full of water and with a bare bottom. I'd imagine it would also be easy to put a thin mirror under the bottom of most tanks, since they rest on their frames rather than on the bottom glass.
> 
> For filtration on your tank if you end up not going the sump route, I'd go with 2 separate canisters; any combo of Eheim 2217s, Rena XP3s or XP4s, personally. Priming these filters is extremely easy, and they shouldn't ever lose prime as long as the connections stay tight and the water level doesn't drop below the filter intake.


I currently have water in my tank. It is clear glass on the bottom and you can see the... not sure what you call it... the blue foam insulation stuff sold at Lowes that I put underneath the tank to cushion it... writing and all. It is not a pretty site. I was told that I had to put this stuff because even one fine grain of sand could break my tank. What you say makes more sense though, because it stands to reason that the trim would be what the tank is resting upon, not my glass. I'll check craft stores to see what I can find, then round up some guys to help me lift the tank to apply it after I drain it. LOL I'm not going to be very popular in this neighborhood much longer if I continue to have people move that beast around. 

Also good to know about the canisters. The main reason I was afraid of them was having to reprime after every power glitch/cleaning. Not so bad then.

Thanks, lauraleellbp.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

Hi michu,

Wkends are my busy time, so I am going to have to get back to this some time between now and Monday. roud:

But in the interim here is a link that you can surf to look at a lot of top notch tanks:

2008 AGA International Aquascaping Contest

Years 2000-2007 are also available.

Again, a lot of these are top shelf setups. But they'll give you an idea of what's been done, what the possibilities are and maybe help you pin down a general idea of what you want to do. I realize that you already have a picture in your head of what you want, but I am hoping that this may help you share that vision more with us....and possibly give you one or more new ideas.

Tanks of all shapes and sizes....

Really sweet stuff.....:thumbsup:


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Thanks Naja002. I had an enjoyable evening last night oohing and aahing over all the gorgeous tanks.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

michu said:


> The joists are perpendicular to the tank, so that part is good. There is some extra blocking around the joists for the garage door... that I guess was to ensure the wall would hold a heavy garage door. Further back in the garage and a bit to the side of where a car would sit is a steel post that supports one of the joists that holds the tank... I think. If the tank is over that joist, it would just be barely over it on one end. That joist has a bunch of thin, smaller joists butted beside each other instead of one big thick one like the rest. I have never seen (or noticed) this done in any other home that I have had. A jack leg lived here prior to my purchase and made all sorts of strange changes; so I'm guessing this may have been his doing (unless this is normal.) The floor does not appear to be bowing yet; so I'm thinking I'm fine.... so far.


Just so ya know, the extra blocking really has little to do with the weight of the garage door itself. There's support added above all openings (windows, doors, etc) to redirect the weight above around the opening--which is supported by nothing except air.

The wood added by the jack leg is basically what I was getting at for extra support without using support poles. Not necessarily the way that person did it, but it sounds like the same basic concept. Your floor joists are made from 2" x 10's" or 2 x 12's"....I would assume. Nailing/screwing/bolting another, similar piece of wood to each one would add extra support. I'm not sure what that person did, was trying to accomplish or why, but it's sounds kind of hodge-podge.

It sounds as though you do not use your garage to park a vehicle in. Not sure what the garage door opening is used for, but vertical 4" x 4" wooden poles can fix any support issues quickly and inexpensively....and can easy be removed when the house is sold. So, if moving something large in/out of the garage door opening (like a vehicle) is not an issue....then setting up poles would probably be the best choice all-around.

"so far"...is the key to me. For me, it's a long term consideration. Flooring is kind of hard to understand. It's "rated" for it's ability, but the "rating" is kind of hard to grasp and apply. I'm no flooring expert, but this is my take on it: Residential flooring is often times rated at ~40lbs/sq. ft.....so your tank should have crashed through the floor already, right? Well, from what I can gather--it's ~40lbs/sq. ft. over the entire span of the floor. So, if you have a 10' x 10' living room...then it should be able to handle ~4,000lbs. But how does that work if you take 2,000lbs and put it over 9 sq. ft.? But if your living room is larger, say 10' x 20' or 15' x 15'....does it make it stronger? Well, yes and no. I don't claim to understand the details, but I do know that longer spans are weaker....but there is normally a structural wall underneath...so the floor may be much stronger overall. Really just depends on how things were built. Things may look good now, but buildings have more to deal with then just vertical loads...wind gusts during storms is a different type of load. So, the main issue here is simply putting so much weight over such a small area.



michu said:


> The glass concerns me since you had me measure it. Prior to finding this tank online, I considered custom jobs and even entertained making the tank I wanted myself. Unless I remember incorrectly, I thought the side walls were more important than the long walls. Anyway... the 72 inch walls are 1/2 inch and the side walls are only 3/8. I remeasured the height of the tank and it is only 28 inches, not 29. I was told it was 29 when I bought it and never bothered to measure to check it. LOL It is still holding the water and was obviously used before since there were lime deposits on it; so I guess it is fine. Hope so. It is an older tank, I think. It has the fake woodgrain trim support on the top and bottom instead of all glass without any trim as had been described.


The fake wood trim indicates to me that the tank was professionally (commercially) built and not the result of some DIY project. So, I'm willing to assume that the glass thickness' are correct and suitable. The long side (front and back) have the longest spans, so they need to be the strongest. Just as important is that depth is what creates the outward pressure with liquids. Your tank is tall and taller then most. That added height creates a lot more outward pressure....so thing's need to be built stronger. Combining the height with the 6' span means things have to be built even stronger--whether it's through glass thickness...or support braces. Personally, I'm willing to assume that the tank itself is fine.




michu said:


> As for a building inspector, I'll see if we have such things here. We're pretty rural and have no zoning laws. At the place where I worked before, I needed a server room built and was horrified they were running aluminum wiring for my servers. When I went to the owner, he said there were no laws here concerning wiring and building, copper had gone out of sight; so we were getting aluminum. OK... you're the boss. LOL Anyway, in town, I might could hire somebody to come out and look.


Trust me, my location is as bad or worse. "Rural" is being very polite for this area. After ~10yrs here "primitive" is still very polite, but a bit more accurate. A land and people truly lost in time. Folks here believe that Tn has no labor laws....because they cannot grasp that Tn is part of the Fed and Fed laws....uh, apply here too. :icon_eek: And the list definitely goes on....:icon_roll

Anyway,  every county has a building department...just gotta look it up in the phone book. Personally, I would trust them--a bit--more then some local-yocal....Forrest Gump comes to mind: "Life is like a box of chocolates..."

A lot of things in these parts are done "*******", and ******* isn't a method...it's a way of life. These folks have traditionally been very poor farmers that had to accomplish what they needed with what they had. Hey, if it works--it works! Right? Uh, no, not necessarily. They do have an inherent ingenuity though....but their methods often leave something to be desired. Just go take another look at that joist in your basement....it speaks volumes, I would imagine. Trust me, internet, cellphones, microwave ovens, indoor plumbing...hasn't really changed much--it's still going to be a few more generations....:icon_roll




michu said:


> The wood floor is the smaller, thicker interlocking, solid kind. The lengths do vary, but I'm sure I could find some that matches and stain them close enough that a buyer wouldn't notice. Stupid me thought that I'd have to replace the whole floor not realizing I could just pull up a few. It is also where one would have some piece of furniture; so the holes might not be that big of a deal to a buyer. It would to some, and if it was a problem, I could fix it as you say.


Right. It's not really a difficult fix. The important part is the width of the wood, not the length. I would imagine that 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pvc pipe would be sufficient and reduce frictional loss. So, 2 holes a bit larger (the measurements above are ID-Inside Diameter) would need to be drilled through the flooring. So, if the wood strips are 2" or more wide...then it's very probable that both holes can be drilled through a single piece of flooring.




michu said:


> I think I've got the matt filter idea down. I'm going to start by putting them in the tank, cutting them large enough so they can be moved to a sump. I could at least get the tank and plants going for now. Then, after I get the plumbing in for the sump downstairs, I'll pull out the matts and stick them in the sump. If I need more filtering, I'll do so. I could have a large sump downstairs and do whatever I want. If I stuck it under the cabinet, it would have to be small to keep down the weight. Downstairs sounds much more appealing.


Personally, I think the sponge and powerheads would be a better start. They can be transferred down stairs as simply as putting them in a bucket, hauling them down, putting them in the sump and plugging in the powerhead. They work very well for mechanical and biological filtration...and what you need to start is the biological (bacteria). I'm just not sure how you are planning to go about installing the mattenfilter(s) in the tank....in a way that's a simple install and a simple change-over to the sump. I may just not be seeing what/how you plan on doing it. Additionally, the sponge/powerhead deal is basically a mobile, easy to clean mattenfilter...the main difference that I can see would be the flow rate, but that can be determined/adjusted by the powerhead used.





michu said:


> The basement walls are cinder block. The outside of the house walls have vinyl siding. [Edited to change to vinyl. I definitely had a brain freeze on that one. LOL]


The house walls may still be wood, brick, block...it doesn't really matter. Going straight through the floor next to the wall would be the easiest route all around. :thumbsup:





michu said:


> The tank I like is several hours away in NC. The next time I go there, I'll sneak some shots. It wasn't anything special... Just a 72X24X24 with the back painted black. They made a higher level by putting in rocks as a retaining wall that had rocks in which they planted "onion" plants. I know, that's not the correct name, but I haven't learned them all yet. The covered the inflows and outflows, which at the time impressed me; since all tanks I'd seen had these showing. In the front of the rocks they sloped sand that went about half way and ended in an arc that left a circular mirror that looked like a lake or lagoon at the bottom. I thought it was a cool idea and great for discus (which they had inside) because they could be fed there on the mirror.


Folks have come up with a few ways to create a "water" look inside of the tank. One is simply using clear glass rocks or beads. There's 1 that looks pretty cool, but I have no idea how it was accomplished. If I come across some pix again--I'll link you to them. As far as the mirrored look...it would be rather simple: Just put your mirror on the bottom of the tank where you want it--before you add the substrate. Then you would probably want a border around it (rocks initially) to help keep the substrate from "leaking" over onto the exposed mirrored area. It would take a bit of maintenance, but done properly--it shouldn't be a big deal. The mirror goes on the inside of the tank....not underneath. :thumbsup:






michu said:


> Thanks Naja002. I had an enjoyable evening last night oohing and aahing over all the gorgeous tanks.


Good. There are some really nice setups out there and some pretty nifty ideas too. Did you find any pix or combinations of pix that show kinda what you are looking to accomplish?





michu said:


> I currently have water in my tank. It is clear glass on the bottom and you can see the... not sure what you call it... the blue foam insulation stuff sold at Lowes that I put underneath the tank to cushion it... writing and all. It is not a pretty site. I was told that I had to put this stuff because even one fine grain of sand could break my tank. What you say makes more sense though, because it stands to reason that the trim would be what the tank is resting upon, not my glass.


With the plastic frame on the bottom of the tank--the foam is unnecessary. Foam is used on frameless tanks and acrylic tanks. My 55g is plastic framed on an iron stand--there is no additionall support--it's made to be that way. :thumbsup:


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## michu (Dec 9, 2008)

Naja002 said:


> The wood added by the jack leg is basically what I was getting at for extra support without using support poles. Not necessarily the way that person did it, but it sounds like the same basic concept. Your floor joists are made from 2" x 10's" or 2 x 12's"....I would assume. Nailing/screwing/bolting another, similar piece of wood to each one would add extra support. I'm not sure what that person did, was trying to accomplish or why, but it's sounds kind of hodge-podge.


Affirmative. It appears that way to me. Since you're from this area, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.  The ordinary joe simply could not understand it until they saw it. 



Naja002 said:


> It sounds as though you do not use your garage to park a vehicle in. Not sure what the garage door opening is used for, but vertical 4" x 4" wooden poles can fix any support issues quickly and inexpensively....and can easy be removed when the house is sold. So, if moving something large in/out of the garage door opening (like a vehicle) is not an issue....then setting up poles would probably be the best choice all-around.


It's currently full of junk I sell online. I have to have the garage door to go up and down to get the junk in and out as there is no other entrance into the garage. I am currently in the process of hauling it all up here, but I will always need the garage door to get pallets in and out.



Naja002 said:


> "so far"...is the key to me. For me, it's a long term consideration. Flooring is kind of hard to understand. It's "rated" for it's ability, but the "rating" is kind of hard to grasp and apply. I'm no flooring expert, but this is my take on it: Residential flooring is often times rated at ~40lbs/sq. ft.....so your tank should have crashed through the floor already, right? Well, from what I can gather--it's ~40lbs/sq. ft. over the entire span of the floor. So, if you have a 10' x 10' living room...then it should be able to handle ~4,000lbs. But how does that work if you take 2,000lbs and put it over 9 sq. ft.? But if your living room is larger, say 10' x 20' or 15' x 15'....does it make it stronger? Well, yes and no. I don't claim to understand the details, but I do know that longer spans are weaker....but there is normally a structural wall underneath...so the floor may be much stronger overall. Really just depends on how things were built. Things may look good now, but buildings have more to deal with then just vertical loads...wind gusts during storms is a different type of load. So, the main issue here is simply putting so much weight over such a small area.


The room is the smallest living room I've ever had. It may indeed be a blessing making it stronger. I never thought I'd be glad about the living room being small. LOL 



Naja002 said:


> The fake wood trim indicates to me that the tank was professionally (commercially) built and not the result of some DIY project. So, I'm willing to assume that the glass thickness' are correct and suitable. Personally, I'm willing to assume that the tank itself is fine.


Good to hear! I was nervous when filling it, expecting it to give way and all that water go all over the house. I purchased it online and my son picked it up for me on his way to TN for a visit. It is heavy and they had a rough time getting it into the back of his pickup. It then sat under the deck for 6 months while I decided what to do with it since it wasn't as expected. I was afraid that all the stress and weather may have deteriorated the seals, but it seems to be fine.





Naja002 said:


> Trust me, my location is as bad or worse. "Rural" is being very polite for this area. After ~10yrs here "primitive" is still very polite, but a bit more accurate. A land and people truly lost in time. Folks here believe that Tn has no labor laws....because they cannot grasp that Tn is part of the Fed and Fed laws....uh, apply here too. :icon_eek: And the list definitely goes on....:icon_roll
> Anyway,  every county has a building department...just gotta look it up in the phone book. Personally, I would trust them--a bit--more then some local-yocal....Forrest Gump comes to mind: "Life is like a box of chocolates..."


LOL So glad to know that you understand what I'm up against. I'm going to call Sullivan County after the holidays to see if I can get somebody out here and hope and pray. It should be entertaining anyway. 




Naja002 said:


> Right. It's not really a difficult fix. The important part is the width of the wood, not the length. I would imagine that 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" pvc pipe would be sufficient and reduce frictional loss. So, 2 holes a bit larger (the measurements above are ID-Inside Diameter) would need to be drilled through the flooring. So, if the wood strips are 2" or more wide...then it's very probable that both holes can be drilled through a single piece of flooring.


I'm so stupid. It didnt' occur to me that I could use the same board. Major duh! Yes, there is room. The boards are the 2.25" variety. Nothing fancy. Plain ol' standard wood flooring that can be had at Home Depot.



Naja002 said:


> Personally, I think the sponge and powerheads would be a better start. They can be transferred down stairs as simply as putting them in a bucket, hauling them down, putting them in the sump and plugging in the powerhead. They work very well for mechanical and biological filtration...and what you need to start is the biological (bacteria). I'm just not sure how you are planning to go about installing the mattenfilter(s) in the tank....in a way that's a simple install and a simple change-over to the sump. I may just not be seeing what/how you plan on doing it. Additionally, the sponge/powerhead deal is basically a mobile, easy to clean mattenfilter...the main difference that I can see would be the flow rate, but that can be determined/adjusted by the powerhead used.


So two sponges for the tank will work. I assumed they wouldn't cut it. Yet another duh. What flow rate should I aim for when purchasing? I could go ahead and order those and get them in there. That is certainly easy enough. I like easy.  



Naja002 said:


> Folks have come up with a few ways to create a "water" look inside of the tank. One is simply using clear glass rocks or beads. There's 1 that looks pretty cool, but I have no idea how it was accomplished. If I come across some pix again--I'll link you to them. As far as the mirrored look...it would be rather simple: Just put your mirror on the bottom of the tank where you want it--before you add the substrate. Then you would probably want a border around it (rocks initially) to help keep the substrate from "leaking" over onto the exposed mirrored area. It would take a bit of maintenance, but done properly--it shouldn't be a big deal. The mirror goes on the inside of the tank....not underneath. :thumbsup:


I've decided to blow off the water thing and just do sand. The tank is only 18 inches in depth, not giving me much room to work. I gathered driftwood out of a drained lake this weekend and am waiting for a sunny, non-windy day to scrub it down. Basically, I'm going to put in the driftwood, lay rock around as I think it should go, then buy the plants after I get in the substrate. Nothing too fancy. I think the discus would enjoy the sand. It's a bit of a pain to clean as I've found it to be in my saltwater tank, but not too bad. I also have a never-ending supply of it around here by the lakes. I'll boil it prior to putting it in to kill whatever bacteria may be hiding in it.



Naja002 said:


> Good. There are some really nice setups out there and some pretty nifty ideas too. Did you find any pix or combinations of pix that show kinda what you are looking to accomplish?


Actually, the one that most closely resembles what I originally had in my head was the discus tank done by the guy at ADG in 2005? except I want taller plants in the back and more round and frilly leaves (female, what can I say?) crawling along the driftwood. I also want flowers (and more driftwood) to come out of the top of the tank. 

The driftwood arrangement depends upon how it will fit. I sawed off part of a stump that I'm going to try to make look like a stump itself. It's too big; so I'll have to do some breaking and engineering, covering the joints with plants. The wood may be too soft, though. I could indent my fingernail in it... may have to go back to the drawing board if it leaches too badly or rots. All the stumps I found to get the roots were of a softer variety. I may have to travel farther than down the street to look. LOL



Naja002 said:


> With the plastic frame on the bottom of the tank--the foam is unnecessary. Foam is used on frameless tanks and acrylic tanks. My 55g is plastic framed on an iron stand--there is no additionall support--it's made to be that way. :thumbsup:


Should I remove the foam or leave it in there? I'm not sure if it's offering the glass more support or causing a breakage risk.


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## Naja002 (Oct 12, 2005)

michu said:


> It's currently full of junk I sell online. I have to have the garage door to go up and down to get the junk in and out as there is no other entrance into the garage. I am currently in the process of hauling it all up here, but I will always need the garage door to get pallets in and out.


Got it. For some reason being able to actually open and close the garage door had not crossed my mind.







I've been more focused on the size of objects that may need to get in or out--that I've overlooked the part about the door being unable to open with poles in the way.....













michu said:


> Good to hear! I was nervous when filling it, expecting it to give way and all that water go all over the house. I purchased it online and my son picked it up for me on his way to TN for a visit. It is heavy and they had a rough time getting it into the back of his pickup. It then sat under the deck for 6 months while I decided what to do with it since it wasn't as expected. I was afraid that all the stress and weather may have deteriorated the seals, but it seems to be fine.


No guarantees, of course, but if I were in your shoes...I really wouldn't be concerned about it at this point. However, I bought a 55g at a yard sale, used it for ~11yrs, came home and 2/3's of the water was no longer in the tank--Yep, a seam had sprung a leak. I have no idea how old the tank was when I bought it. I used it for ~11yrs for all different kinds of things. Stuff happens. Honestly, if everything looks good and seems good--ya just gotta have faith. :icon_eek:





michu said:


> LOL So glad to know that you understand what I'm up against. I'm going to call Sullivan County after the holidays to see if I can get somebody out here and hope and pray. It should be entertaining anyway.


For me things have become less "entertaining" over time and more a source of frustration. There's simple things that you can do in advance to help over the phone....like: measure the L x W of the room, Measure the floor joists to see if they are 2" x10", 2" x 12" or what, they should be 16" on center--meaning 16" apart measured from the center of the thickness of the wood (the 2" width). If you can get one of their engineers on the horn then they may want that info. They'll probably assume that it's within code--and it probably is, but it can't hurt to check.





michu said:


> So two sponges for the tank will work. I assumed they wouldn't cut it. Yet another duh. What flow rate should I aim for when purchasing? I could go ahead and order those and get them in there. That is certainly easy enough. I like easy.


The sponges/powerhead are a DIY thing. Not a big deal. I have one with 2 sponges and another with 4 sponges(--a Tee with 2 sponges off one run and 2 off the other.) Sponge filters work great for what they are. The hardest part for me was connecting the plumbing/pipe to the powerhead. I worked it out for the powerheads that I have. The problem is that powerheads are made a bit differently. Lots of good powerheads on the market, but the ones that I use for this (Peguin 1140) are made in a way that just makes this too easy. The Penguins have a lip that protrudes 1/2" or more when the intake strainer is removed--1" ID tubing fits right over it very nicely--many powerheads these days don't have this little feature, so attaching to them becomes _very_ problematic.

Here's some pix:

*Basic assembly:*











*1"ID tubing to 1" barb x MPT (male pipe thread) to 1" coupling (FPT x Slip)*











*To serrated pipe intake:*










*The intake pipe was cut on both sides--done with a chop/miter saw:*











As can barely be seen in the last pic on the right end...there is a pvc cap to seal off the pipe so all the water goes through the sponges. After checking the flow rate, I would say that the flow through any given area of the sponge is probably very similar to a matten filter. I have not cleaned these sponges since 07/08, because there has been no need to...they just keep doing their thing. But that is a pretty low bioload setup also. I cleaned them every few months when the bioload was higher. These can be made with a powerhead on each end, however many sponges you want/need, etc. Looks are not overly important because it's home will ultimately be in the sump. The tubing and pvc parts can be picked up at the local hardware store. Just so ya know: Most Lowes have a *much* better plumbing section then HD.

The 1" ID parts are used because they work perfectly with the powerhead and the inside hole of the sponges.

Both the powerheads (1140--$22.50) and the sponges (Replacement Sponge #5--$2.65) can be purchased at Kensfish.com...saves some shipping costs.




michu said:


> I've decided to blow off the water thing and just do sand. The tank is only 18 inches in depth, not giving me much room to work. I gathered driftwood out of a drained lake this weekend and am waiting for a sunny, non-windy day to scrub it down. Basically, I'm going to put in the driftwood, lay rock around as I think it should go, then buy the plants after I get in the substrate. Nothing too fancy. I think the discus would enjoy the sand. It's a bit of a pain to clean as I've found it to be in my saltwater tank, but not too bad. I also have a never-ending supply of it around here by the lakes. I'll boil it prior to putting it in to kill whatever bacteria may be hiding in it.


The water/mirror thing can always be incorporated later. Just move the substrate, place the mirror, form the border...not a big deal.




michu said:


> Actually, the one that most closely resembles what I originally had in my head was the discus tank done by the guy at ADG in 2005? except I want taller plants in the back and more round and frilly leaves (female, what can I say?) crawling along the driftwood. I also want flowers (and more driftwood) to come out of the top of the tank.
> 
> The driftwood arrangement depends upon how it will fit. I sawed off part of a stump that I'm going to try to make look like a stump itself. It's too big; so I'll have to do some breaking and engineering, covering the joints with plants. The wood may be too soft, though. I could indent my fingernail in it... may have to go back to the drawing board if it leaches too badly or rots. All the stumps I found to get the roots were of a softer variety. I may have to travel farther than down the street to look. LOL


We expect pictures, you know that right? Like a journal or something. :biggrin:





michu said:


> Should I remove the foam or leave it in there? I'm not sure if it's offering the glass more support or causing a breakage risk.


This one--I don't know, because, like you--I can see it both ways: May help, may hurt. How dense is the foam?--if it's less dense...it may be more forgiving. If it's really dense--it may be less forgiving. I really just don't know.


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