# Dry Start Method - About to flood the tank



## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

Things have gone well these past 4 months. Its been setup and growing since March 29th. Daily, I take the lid off and spray the rocks and plants just enough to keep them moist. Then I dry the glass off with a paper towel. Thats all the maintenance its taken. I'm so nervous about filling it. I cut the holes in the polycarbonate plastic lid for my DIY acrylic lily pipes today.

I know I should set the CO2 at a 2-4 bubbles per second to keep the HC from melting while it acclimates to being underwater. 

Are there any tips besides that will help me?

I really don't want to ruin all the progress even though the background plants didn't fare so well.

Day 1:









Today:
























Here is a link to my tank journal: http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=293602


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## gus6464 (Dec 19, 2011)

You have no fish so when you fill just blast the co2 and you will be fine. I did that on my tank and had 0 melting. I was doing something like 10+ bps on my 29g with no problem.


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## melanotaenia (Mar 26, 2013)

also cut back on your light level and duration so that the HC spends more time establishing itself in the submersed form instead of trying to grow new leaves. I would keep lights on about 5-6 hours per day to start and slowly increase from there.

Also, I am a big proponent of doing a 100% water change after filling the tank once to remove all the crap that has been in the soil for all that time, and then fill with again with fresh water.

After that, just watch the HC, and begin dosing fertilizers. I do from day 1 on all DSM tanks I have done.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

Wow, great info. Thanks to the both of you. Exactly what I needed to hear. Glad I posted before going ahead. 

I have another question. Should I use the carbon my filter comes with, the Sea Chem Purigen I bought months ago and haven't used yet or no chemical filtration at all?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, your baby tears would melt transitioning to submerged form. Are those dirt substrate and did you cap it with fine gravels or sand? If so, you should expect the water to be cloudy and may have excessive organic load. May want to do 3 to 4 50% WC consecutive days. Use your a drop checker to check your CO2 level. Forget your bps. They are meaningless....


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

Should I run to CO2 24/7 at first?


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

GJL Creative Solutions said:


> Should I run to CO2 24/7 at first?



I don't see why since CO2 isn't being used at night. You may want to cut back the lighting while the baby tears are going through the melt. Just keep your CO2 drop checker to yellow. Dose EI.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

I moved the tank its final spot and tested out the filter outside on a 5 gallon bucket. Didn't want to make a mess inside messing with it for the first time. Filter media goes: sponge, ceramic, purigen, sponge, and back to the tank. I hooked up the CO2 line and ready to go with a drop checker half full with 5 drops Bromothymol Blue.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

Its done. I'm gonna do a full water change tomorrow. 










I'm having a problem with my CO2 regulator. I cant get it to a low enough pressure to even come close to 1 bps or less. 

I have this Hydro Farm regulator here :









http://www.hydrofarm.com/product.php?itemid=7106

I have the flow adjuster all the way down and its still coming out at about 9 bps.

Its kinda old and the screw is tough to turn. I bought it off of Craigslist for around $100. It was previously used to make beer. I may just buy a replacement. Hopefully I can still use the solenoid to save some cash.


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## melanotaenia (Mar 26, 2013)

because you have no fish the CO2 levels at that rate should not be an issue especially at the onset as the plants are going to be using so much of it.

If you turn of the regulator at night, make sure you turn it on about an hour before the lights come on so that the tank will have a high CO2 saturation level once the lights come on so the plants can utilize it right away.

I would try to do a water change as soon as possible if that is the first fill since DSM.

The HC looks to have grown out nicely for you!


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## Quaid (Apr 14, 2009)

Your regulator has a single stage of pressure regulation followed by what looks like a flow regulator (not the same as a pressure regulator). This flow regulator wasn't likely intended for such low-flow applications. As you said, it was previously used for draft beer.

What you need is a needle valve. Google for Rex Grigg needle valve. He's got some info about the mechanics/technology.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

Quaid said:


> Your regulator has a single stage of pressure regulation followed by what looks like a flow regulator (not the same as a pressure regulator). This flow regulator wasn't likely intended for such low-flow applications. As you said, it was previously used for draft beer.
> 
> What you need is a needle valve. Google for Rex Grigg needle valve. He's got some info about the mechanics/technology.


Thank you. The aquarium shops around here aren't much use for info about this kind of technical information. The guy at the hydroponics store just looked at me with a glazed look in his eyes. I wonder why. lol

Great info. This thread has been very helpful. I did an 80% WC today.

The drop checker is a greenish yellow

















I have the timer set at 5 hours of light right now. I managed to get the regulator putting out about 2bps but its sooo touchy. I'd like to increase the flow but If I move the nut just a little bit it starts shooting out. I will be picking up a needle valve asap. Should I keep my solenoid or just buy a whole new setup and sell the old one as a complete unit for hydro? Any links to recommended regulators around $100?


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Valves:

Fabco are cheap and reasonable.
The Parkers on ebay are good(I use these and the next suggestion)
And the Ideal valves are perhaps the best.
Nupro/Swageloks are good also.

I'd not use a drop checker, IME, these have caused more issues and assumptions than they have resolved.

pH (and KH) likely is a better method, at least in relative terms and lag times. 
KH can be off and has it's own errors, but it will NEVER over estimate the CO2 content. It can only UNDER estimate it.

So you can start with the pH/KH table, then adjust based on your plants and livestock slowly and progressively till they are all thriving. Done correctly, this works about as well as any method.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Valves:
> 
> Fabco are cheap and reasonable.
> The Parkers on ebay are good(I use these and the next suggestion)
> ...



This is kind of strange hearing from you, not to rely on the drop checker. I have always been told that using the kh/ph reference to gauge the CO2 level is totally inaccurate. Perhaps, you are suggesting that we should determine how much the ph is dropping and to what level. Then, use that ph valve, with the known kh degree, to determine the CO2 level?


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

plantbrain said:


> Valves:
> 
> Fabco are cheap and reasonable.
> The Parkers on ebay are good(I use these and the next suggestion)
> ...


Great to hear from you Mr. Barr. I've received input on this project from you on your website and it is in part to your credit that I have been successful thus far. Thank you


No melting as of yet. I am seeing some nice pearling. I have the DC in the yellow at about 3-4bps 24/7 with 5 hours of light per day. 

How long until I should extend the daylight hours? How frequently should I change the water on a 7.5?


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## flight50 (Apr 17, 2012)

tetra73 said:


> This is kind of strange hearing from you, not to rely on the drop checker. I have always been told that using the kh/ph reference to gauge the CO2 level is totally inaccurate. Perhaps, you are suggesting that we should determine how much the ph is dropping and to what level. Then, use that ph valve, with the known kh degree, to determine the CO2 level?


This method is how I learned my co2 content many years ago. I have continued to use this without a drop checker as well. Technically it sounds like both are doing the same thing. One has a fancy gadget and the other is all manual labor. The kh solution in the drop checker gets it reading from the trapped co2 that is dissolved in the water in which involves the water's ph level. I don't have experience with a drop checker so I can't say much on them but if I already own the test kits, all I have to do is reference a co2 chart online and get to checking. A chart gives me numbers and values vs colors. I find it easier to know how much to adjust by references ppm ranges.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

flight50 said:


> This method is how I learned my co2 content many years ago. I have continued to use this without a drop checker as well. Technically it sounds like both are doing the same thing. One has a fancy gadget and the other is all manual labor. The kh solution in the drop checker gets it reading from the trapped co2 that is dissolved in the water in which involves the water's ph level. I don't have experience with a drop checker so I can't say much on them but if I already own the test kits, all I have to do is reference a co2 chart online and get to checking. A chart gives me numbers and values vs colors. I find it easier to know how much to adjust by references ppm ranges.


Not exactly the same because with the drop checker, you are supposed to use a standard 4dkh solution with little impurity. The ph color changes because the CO2 being dissolved inside the drop checker. It is the actual CO2 gas causing the ph inside the drop checker to change. However, with the reference chart, there are MANY things causing your ph to change and not necessary on the CO2 level in the tank.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

tetra73 said:


> This is kind of strange hearing from you, not to rely on the drop checker. I have always been told that using the kh/ph reference to gauge the CO2 level is totally inaccurate. Perhaps, you are suggesting that we should determine how much the ph is dropping and to what level. Then, use that ph valve, with the known kh degree, to determine the CO2 level?


Have you really ever heard me tell folks they are great and accurate? It gets around the KH issue, but there's a huge trade off.

Ph measure is terrible and response time takes forever.

pH meters fast(a minute or two) and excellent for a Relative measure.

If you have a certainty about the water being totally degassed, then you measure the pH. Say it's a pH of 7.5. 

This might suggest a KH of about 2.5. You can measure and see.
The pH/K tables will NEVER EVER tell you there is LESS CO2 than the table predicts.

So there's no way to over dose CO2 based on the table.
You can only UNDER ESTIMATE CO2 or have it be right on the mark.
http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/12022-CO2-pH-KH-table

A pH meter(0.01 accuracy), with a reasonably well maintained and replaced probe(say once a year for a lab grade) will offer a far more precise adjustment of CO2.

So if you take the pH of 7.5, regardless of the KH's true value..........and you add only CO2 gas to lower the pH down to say 6.5, this will correspond to a CO2 of 30-25 ppm or very close.

This 1.00 drop will equal roughly 25-30 ppm no matter what the KH value really is.

Say the KH is 10, your starting pH will be roughly 8.0. The 30 ppm target is again, 1.00 units lower at 7.00 adding only CO2 gas.

You must have fully degassed water samples to do this.

What happens sometimes is the tank water might not degas entirely at night, so you have say 10 ppm of CO2, or 15ppm etc. So at KH of 10, you have a start point at 7.3 or 7.4 and then 1.00 drop will give you 150 ppm of CO2.......
Now that can kill fish, but that is not the table's fault, that's your own. 

So make sure the sample is degassed. Take some tank water, in a glass, let it sit out for a couple of days. Then measure the pH/KH and see.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

tetra73 said:


> Not exactly the same because with the drop checker, you are supposed to use a standard 4dkh solution with little impurity. The ph color changes because the CO2 being dissolved inside the drop checker. It is the actual CO2 gas causing the ph inside the drop checker to change. However, with the reference chart, there are MANY things causing your ph to change and not necessary on the CO2 level in the tank.


But not over the course of the day cycle, so relative pH works quite well.
And it's much more responsive and precise for CO2 adjustment than any drop checker could hope to be.

You can also do a test with a reference KH water sample and then a tank water sample and see how far off they are in terms of CO2

So one sample has the reference and the other has the tank water.
Degassed, you can make the reference KH the same KH measure as the tank. Say the tank is 6.0 or 107.16 ppm. You can make the Reference the same.

Then measure the pH after a 2-3 days of sitting out.
If the samples are the same, then tap water for that point in time is all bicarb alkalinity. pH/KH table is good.

If the pH is off by say 0.4 units, then we off set this error factor and still use the pH/KH table. KH can change, but the relative pH drop will not.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

So far so good for the HC.









The Staurogyne could be doing better. Looks like its melting a bit. I didn't dry start it. I added it the day I filled the tank.









Drop checker still in the yellow at 3-4 bps.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

plantbrain said:


> Have you really ever heard me tell folks they are great and accurate? It gets around the KH issue, but there's a huge trade off.
> 
> Ph measure is terrible and response time takes forever.
> 
> ...



Thanks Tom..it makes sense....


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## melanotaenia (Mar 26, 2013)

It is better that the repens was added after the DSM: I have done DSM with the plant and it melts terribly every time after submersion, regardless of CO2, lighting, etc. 

Luckily it grows new shoots, but it does take a little time to adjust.


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## GJL Creative Solutions (Mar 14, 2013)

lol I feel like I'm interrupting a very informative conversation with questions and comments about my tank.

I read that my 12" Finnex Fuge Ray only qualifies as medium light at 10" from the substrate. I want enough light to be able to grow anything so today I ordered a 12" Ray2 with half 10,000k / half actinic. 

They claim roughly 2 and a half times the PAR output of the original Ray fixture.

Anyone know if this configuration of the Ray2 will be what I'm looking for?


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