# Shrimps having molting problem



## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Hello everyone, this is my first time posting in this forum, although I've been reading lots of threads from here.

I've recently added 6 neos to my tank (3 two weeks ago and 3 1 week ago) and had two deaths that mimicked each other. The first one was bending its body with a crack on the back which seems to indicate molting. After few hours it was on the ground on its side with back slightly bent, however, the mouth and legs were still moving. Later that day I saw the molt come off the shrimp, however, it was still on the side looking exhausted and the other shrimps took a leg off it while it was still moving.

A similar turn of the events for my second death, however this time the shrimp failed to molt altogether. 

There have been successful molts in the tank with the other shrimps and by chance, these two were part of the more recent batch.

Another thing to note was that these two were the larger and darker colored individuals, besides my berried female. However they both looked male to my eyes, with lack of saddle and skirt, however, I'm not good at sexing them at all. Four of the shrimps were isolated in a breeding box inside my 20G and two were outside, and both death happened in the box.

My theory is that the molt was too thick and it couldn't get it off. I've been feeding them blanched zucchinis and Shirakura Baby Shrimp powder. The two that's outside get leftover food or waste from my guppies. 

Is it possible Shirakura powder is too high in Calcium?

Here are my parameters:
Ammonia, Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: <10 usually <5
pH: 7.8
KH: 5
GH: 8

Tap water has 8.0-8.2 pH, 5-6 KH, 7-8 GH. Also, the city water parameters state that it contains 115 mg/L of Calcium.

I would like to get more shrimps for my tank, but want to identify if this is going to be an ongoing issue for me or not. These shrimps were from LFS who got it from abroad, which may be the reason why they aren't doing too well. 

I would appreciate any input on this issue. Thank you!


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## clownplanted (Mar 3, 2017)

Molting issues is almost certainly a too high or too low GH issue. You seem a bit on the high side although some do keep them at 8. I would look at lowering it down to 6 and see if the issues clear up. Your KH also is on the very high side. I would try bring it down a couple if you could. I would do this in about a weeks time doing small water changes here and there till you get those numbers down to GH 6 and KH 3 or so. The easiest way of doing this would be say mixing about 25% RO to 75% Tap water. That should get you very close in range of where you want to be. Your issue very well could be that the LFS sold you import shrimp which almost always have issues as well. But to rule out you causing the problem I would get the paramaters on point. 
I would also look at feeding them more variety of a diet.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Actually, I contacted the LFS and they told me that the shrimps were raised in +10 GH in Taiwan. Which puzzles me, maybe it's the compositional difference? Also with KH, most threads I've read say that it doesn't matter for neos as much? What's the consequence of having high KH?

While I would like to use remineralized RO, I have a 20G tank and without a RO system I don't know how I would supply that water consistently. Do you think my parameters are quite off from ideal? Is there some other method of adjusting my KH and GH?

There are breeders in town that raise neos off tap water, I'm wondering if those would fair better. Their parameters seemed quite close to mine.

For diet, do you have any suggestions? I've been looking at Shirakura Algae tabs, Mosura and Hikari crab or shrimp cuisine. I'm going to try some other veggies as well.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

While it's weird that the issues you are having are molting-related, it's _not_ weird that you're having issues in the first place. These shrimp were raised in very different conditions, shipped from overseas, stored locally for a short while in unknown (probably not great) conditions at your LFS, then transferred into new water again. They are _stressed. out_. 

Because you're seeing these issues so soon after buying them, I would sort of chalk it up to them being imports. I know it's frustrating to have them die like that but it could very well be the case that you can't do much about it. This might be their first molt in your new tank and they might just be dealing with shell/gH issues from the LFS water (rather than yours), it's hard to say.

I actually think your parameters are fine, the kH is maybe a tad high but should not be causing this type of issue (unless, of course, the shrimp were raised in vastly different conditions --which they were). I have neos breeding in kH 5-6 water right now and have heard of success stories in much harder water.

If you do plan on getting more, I highly recommend buying from hobbyists or reputable breeders online. The shrimp will be hardier, probably cheaper, and you'll know what parameters they come from (so whether or not they would be a good fit for your tank).

Whatever food you get, I've heard that you should aim for something with high vegetable content. If fish meal or filler is in the top 3-5 ingredients, skip it.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I'd say your parameters are fine for Neos. That said, the issues that stand out to me are...

1.) You purchased imported Neos. Besides the fact that many come with parasites, these guys often do not adjust well to aquariums in the home, regardless of how ideal the parameters are geared towards them

2.) You (probably) purchased adults. Adults have a harder time adjusting to different water parameters than juvenile shrimp do.

3.) Acclimation? It wasn't mentioned, but this could also be a factor

4.) Diet? I can't say it is an issue, but it is one possible problem. A diet too high in protein can also lead to molting problems - based on what you said you feed, I don't feel like it's a contribution - but shrimp do thrive best on biofilm and vegetable matter. Think - algae. Just because an item is being sold as an "algae tab" doesn't necessarily mean it's algae based. In fact, many "algae foods" sold on the market, algae is *NOT* within the top 3 ingredients, let alone top 5! How can you consider it "algae food", if you take into consideration that the top ingredient(s) is what makes up the majority of that food?

5.) Water changes? Again, wasn't mentioned and may not be an issue. Too large, too frequent or too quick of water changes can also result in molting problems.

6.) Temperature of the tank? Too high of temp could result in faster growth which could lead to molting problems - also higher temps means a higher chance for bacterial infections. Some might even say shorter lifespans.


As you can see, shrimp can be more sensitive than fish, and there are several reasons why there could be failed molts or molting issues. (not even getting into the too high or too low GH that's often the cause)


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> While it's weird that the issues you are having are molting-related, it's _not_ weird that you're having issues in the first place. These shrimp were raised in very different conditions, shipped from overseas, stored locally for a short while in unknown (probably not great) conditions at your LFS, then transferred into new water again. They are _stressed. out_.
> 
> Because you're seeing these issues so soon after buying them, I would sort of chalk it up to them being imports. I know it's frustrating to have them die like that but it could very well be the case that you can't do much about it. This might be their first molt in your new tank and they might just be dealing with shell/gH issues from the LFS water (rather than yours), it's hard to say.
> 
> ...


I've actually had neos from the LFS a few years ago when I was active in the hobby and they used to carry town-bred shrimps. I should have checked before purchasing.  While I suspected the problem may have been associated with imports, I just wanted to make sure that my water was nothing out of ordinary and I thank you for the assurance. 

There is a hobbyist in town that I connected with who's been around for years with very good reputation, but he only does over 20 packages and I wanted to test the waters before I got deeper into the hobby. Looking back though, import shrimps were probably not the best control group.

Would you also feed high veggie content food to the shrimplets, if I were to raise them separately? With guppy frys I use high protein food to promote faster growth.



Zoidburg said:


> I'd say your parameters are fine for Neos. That said, the issues that stand out to me are...
> 
> 1.) You purchased imported Neos. Besides the fact that many come with parasites, these guys often do not adjust well to aquariums in the home, regardless of how ideal the parameters are geared towards them
> *How severe is the parasites issue for inverts? Do I need to quarantine these guys separately if I intend on buying from a local breeder? Also, would they affect fish?*
> ...


Answered in bold.

Should I be getting any other test kits to test any dissolved content?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*How severe is the parasites issue for inverts? Do I need to quarantine these guys separately if I intend on buying from a local breeder? Also, would they affect fish?*

To my knowledge, no issue with fish. Invert specific. As far as the parasites, it depends on what, if any, you get. Scutariella and vorticella are easy to treat, but if it's ellobiopsidae, well, there's several treatment options but none guaranteed to work 100%. If you get local shrimp, it wouldn't be a bad idea to keep them quarantined for at least a few weeks - or longer.


*Drip acclimatized with a drop of Prime until water was 3 times the original volume. I've read mixed input on Drip acclimatizing and just plop and drop though.*

If the water parameters weren't close, then it might not have been enough. I drip acclimate until the TDS is 30 or less of a difference. I'm sure that there will always be some disagreements on the best methods to adding them to a tank.


*The powder I am adding seems to have pretty high protein content. 
"This highly beneficial yellow powder includes 14.1% crude protein, 14.3% raw fiber, 19.7% crude fat and 10.8% crude ash from which healthy microorganisms will hatch and grow providing nutrient-rich food for your baby shrimp." 
There are plants and marimo mossball with the shrimps and biofilm on the surface. I'm not exactly sure how shrimps feed off the surface film though.*

The Shirakura Ebi Dama has around 30% protein with it's main ingredients being algae and vegetables. Hikari Crab Cuisine has 31% protein, but the main ingredients are fish meal and grains. Hikari Shrimp Cuisine has 35% protein, being made up of fish meal, grass, grains and 5th ingredient is algae.

It's fine to feed animal based protein once, *maybe* twice a week (if you had a large colony), just you want to try and rely more heavily on algae and vegetable based diets if possible. And the powder compared to the other foods? I don't think it's a contributing factor.


*20% weekly WC. Water is aged for a day, then Prime is dosed. I heat it up to the same temp before adding it.*

Shouldn't be an issue unless it's dumped into the tank.


*It's 76F though it's a preset 78F heater, so it might be at the higher end. I've read about the shorter lifespan and also that more males get hatched. If neos work out and I turn this into a shrimp only tank I'll turn the heat down. What temp do you keep yours in?*

"Room temp" - which is pretty broad. The tanks aren't heated. They are about 68° right now. During the day, especially during summer, those temps will average out in the 70's.

As you can see, shrimp can be more sensitive than fish, and there are several reasons why there could be failed molts or molting issues. (not even getting into the too high or too low GH that's often the cause)



If you don't have a TDS meter, it wouldn't hurt to grab one. If it doesn't come with calibration solution, then purchase that separately.


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

Well neos are hardy. I really believe the ones who died were having some illness already. Try to buy from different breeder. Drip acclimate them always for as long as possible. Try to reduce your gH to 6. 8 is not too bad but can cause issues. I want to ask do you use dechlonirator for tap water? Sometimes water may have copper traces which are toxic to shrimps. Use Seachem Prime to prime your water. About shrimp food try to feed more vegetable based. Dennerle shrimp king complete is best food. Also for babies and shrimp survival rate use glasgarten Bacter Ae. My food schedule is:

Saturday: Bacter Ae 

Monday : Dennerle shrimp king complete 

Tuesday: Dennerle shrimp king Color or Shrimplab Protein. 

I feed protein like once in two weeks. Please avoid foods having fish meal. Hikari Has fish meal in it. I loved it 
specially because of the tiny size but I stopped feeding to my Shrimps because of high protein level.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

*The Shirakura Ebi Dama has around 30% protein with it's main ingredients being algae and vegetables. Hikari Crab Cuisine has 31% protein, but the main ingredients are fish meal and grains. Hikari Shrimp Cuisine has 35% protein, being made up of fish meal, grass, grains and 5th ingredient is algae.*

So 30% protein is typical, I just have to look for the other main ingredients to be algae or vegetable based.

*It's fine to feed animal based protein once, *maybe* twice a week (if you had a large colony), just you want to try and rely more heavily on algae and vegetable based diets if possible. And the powder compared to the other foods? I don't think it's a contributing factor.*

Do you mean something that's purely animal based protein besides the 30% protein that seems to be included in a lot of shrimp food? What are some examples of pure animal protein food? Egg yolk?

*If you don't have a TDS meter, it wouldn't hurt to grab one. If it doesn't come with calibration solution, then purchase that separately.*

Is TDS meter measure something different than GH? What are some reliable brands for TDS meter?





kashif314 said:


> *Well neos are hardy. I really believe the ones who died were having some illness already. Try to buy from different breeder. Drip acclimate them always for as long as possible. Try to reduce your gH to 6. 8 is not too bad but can cause issues. I want to ask do you use dechlonirator for tap water? Sometimes water may have copper traces which are toxic to shrimps. Use Seachem Prime to prime your water. About shrimp food try to feed more vegetable based. Dennerle shrimp king complete is best food. Also for babies and shrimp survival rate use glasgarten Bacter Ae. My food schedule is:
> 
> Saturday: Bacter Ae
> 
> ...


Thank you guys for all the info, I'm enjoying this learning curve. I want to eventually try some Caridinas specifically Cardinal Shrimp in a planted tank. But I've heard even CRS is hard to keep. And any plants beyond Anubias and Java Ferns is still a mystery to me, so I'll have to learn a lot from this forum.


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## zihao611 (Feb 2, 2018)

minerals


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Animal based protein - fish meal, krill, salmon, etc. Basically, foods already geared towards shrimp but instead of being based on algae or vegetable matter, they've got animal protein.

Frozen bloodworms have maybe 4-6% protein, so it's very low. Feed that to shrimp, and if they eat too much or too often, you'll have molting problems. I've seen this one first hand.

Mainly, if you have a food that is animal based protein, try not to feed it more than once a week and feed very little of it.


You can also feed leaves such as indian almond leaves, mulberry, oak, alder, beech, nettle, guava, hibiscus, etc.



TDS meter measures the conductivity of the water. Water with higher mineral content and water that's very dirty have high TDS readings. Rain water, RO/DI and potentially even distilled water has low TDS readings because it's all softer water. In short, it measures everything. GH, KH, food, waste, decomposing organics, etc. It doesn't tell you *what* is in the water, nor how much of it, only how "clean" or "dirty" the water is, or how "hard" or "soft" it is. My tap typically runs 3 GH and 3 KH with around ~57 TDS. My sisters tap on the other hand has around 10 KH and 19 GH with 475+ TDS.

TDS readers can be great for remineralizing RO/DI water for crystal shrimp. Say you want a GH reading of 4 and that gets you to 120 TDS, or 5 which has a TDS of 150 (just generalizations! may vary). Once you add the amount of GH to the RO water and confirmed it's on point, you then use the TDS meter to find out what it's at. From then on, as long as your TDS meter is calibrationed, you only need to test your TDS to get the desired GH of the water.

If you keep a shrimp tank at 250 TDS (say, for Neos), and it climbs to 280 TDS, then you know it's time for a water change.



Caridinas can be easy to keep - if you start out right. If you don't, you'll probably struggle. Caridinas and Crystals are on the opposite ends of the spectrum. Crystals prefer low pH and soft water where-as Cardinals are high pH and "hard" water. Crystals prefer cooler temps and Cardinals higher temps. With either one, it is recommended to use RO/DI water and remineralize with shrimp minerals. Crystals will require a buffering substrate, Cardinals are fine with inert sand or lava based substrate.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> Animal based protein - fish meal, krill, salmon, etc. Basically, foods already geared towards shrimp but instead of being based on algae or vegetable matter, they've got animal protein.
> 
> Frozen bloodworms have maybe 4-6% protein, so it's very low. Feed that to shrimp, and if they eat too much or too often, you'll have molting problems. I've seen this one first hand.
> 
> ...


I'm surprised Bloodworms have such low protein content. Being insects, I thought they would be pure protein. Doesn't the Indian Almond Leaves leach Tannin and make the pH swing? I have few dried ones but I didn't use them for that reason.

I see so TDS meter is useful once you calibrate with RODI. Do the 10-20 dollar TDS Pens work for purpose of Shrimp Tank, or do you need higher end ones? Now if you were using buffering substrate like Amazonia, how do you know how much mineral to put it? With my understanding, you can get the perfect KH, GH with RODI and mineral, but once you put it into a tank with buffering substrate, wouldn't the substrate bind to the ions and affect the parameters?

When I'm trying to remineralize for shrimp tank, does it make a difference between RO or RODI, or even rain water? RO and RODI feels close enough unless you are doing Reef. I can get RO water from the grocery store, but RODI I would need to invest in a machine, which doesn't seem cheap.

Also, what's a good substrate for Crystals? I wanted to use buffering substrate like Amazonia, but I've heard you need to change the soil every so often and I want a substrate that I can just keep in there. I would eventually like to keep both a planted tank with shrimps(display) and shrimp tank with some plants(breeding), if that makes sense.

How often do you change the water for Crystals? It seems like a lot of people will just top it off and change it lot less frequently than a fish tank.

There are few breeders in town that are keeping Cardinals in tap water, which makes me want to try them out, but they are so expensive even from the local breeders. I heard it's not common for tap water to agree with Cardinals.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

*bold*



Luciferene said:


> I see so TDS meter is useful once you calibrate with RODI. Do the 10-20 dollar TDS Pens work for purpose of Shrimp Tank, or do you need higher end ones?
> 
> *Cheap is fine, I spent ~$15 on mine on Amazon.*
> 
> ...


EDIT: Just to clarify, "cards" is an abbreviation for "caridina", which is usually an abbreviation for "caridina cantonensis". Cardinals _are_ technically caridina but --since they are kept less frequently and in totally non-overlapping parameters-- that's usually not what people mean when they say "cards".


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> *If you have neos, you shouldn't really be using Amazonia for exactly the reason you stated. It will try to buffer the water down and fight any added kH along the way, exhausting the buffering ability very quickly. Additionally, you can get pH swings with every water change for the duration that the Amazonia can still buffer. Neos are better with inert substrate.*
> I'm keeping my neos in gravel. I meant using Amazonia for CRS or other Cantonesis varieties. While organizing the post I must have deleted that info.
> 
> *Amazonia is good for cards assuming kH 0-1 water. It will lose its buffering after a couple years ish. You can get creative and put it in containers within the tank if you're concerned about having to swap it out easily. You can also go with inert substrate and use other methods to stabilize pH (IAL, wood, substrate in filter, alder cones, etc...)
> ...


Answers below the bolded parts.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> I'm keeping my neos in gravel. I meant using Amazonia for CRS or other Cantonesis varieties. While organizing the post I must have deleted that info.
> *Nice, then you're already doing better than a lot of new shrimpers! (My first neo tank had Amazonia in it, what a nightmare...) To answer your question with the new context: water changes for cards should have extremely low kH, meaning the Amazonia's buffering ability wouldn't really mess with it. You would be remineralizing gH and making sure pH and TDS are in the right range, all of which play nicely with Amazonia.*
> 
> That's a good idea, but the initial ammonia leaching would probably won't allow me to put new substrate in while the shrimp is in. Would you be able to tell when Amazonia start to lose it's buffering ability or is it like a sudden swing in the parameter? If there are signs of exhaustion before the parameters start swinging, I can add things like peat moss, IAL to take over the buffering.
> ...


*
bold stuff*


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Ya.... I don't get the protein content of bloodworms either... just that they are animal protein.

The IAL do leach tannins but if you only use 1 every 2+ weeks and keep up with water changes, it shouldn't be a big difference. Now, if you flood the tank with them, you'll probably see a higher pH swing. Saying that, I've overfilled one tank with alder cones and the tank was a dark tea color, nearly coffee like... and the pH was still above 7... -shrugs- Other people have managed to get the pH lower using tannins, but for whatever reason, it didn't work for me. (I have soft water... so pH swings should be "easy")


I also purchased a TDS meter from Amazon. I got the HM EZ TDS meter and purchased the calibration solution separately. I use it for drip acclimating as well.

As mentioned, you don't want to use KH on a buffering substrate. There are GH only minerals out there that, when used with RO water, work fine for buffering substrates! And Neos typically do best on inert substrate (non-buffering). If you used a liquid remineralizer, and the remineralizer raised the GH by 3 for every 1ml used in a 10 gallon tank, and you wanted 6 GH, then you would use maybe 1.5 to 1.75ml (accounting for substrate, plants, decor, etc) for the entire tank. You'd want to pre-mix it in a container or bucket first, ensure it comes out to 6 GH then measure the TDS. If the TDS rises in the tank, time for a water change!


RO, RO/DI, Distilled or even Rainwater shouldn't matter as long as the water is clean (not contaminated by pollution or other things) and has 0 GH and KH.



Any buffering subsrate will need to be replaced eventually. They will lose their buffering capacities sooner or later. SL-Aqua, Amazonia, Prodibio, Controsoil or others would all be fine! I personally wouldn't recommend Fluval as I've heard it tends to turn to mush and doesn't last as long as other substrates, plus it doesn't buffer the pH down very low, but otherwise it shouldn't matter much what one you go with.

If you don't want to replace substrate in a tank every 1-3 years (whenever the substrate starts losing it's buffering capacities), then consider a HOB filter type setup (or even HOB breeder box with pump) and put your substrate in there. If you use a substrate that leaches ammonia, then you want to "pre-cycle" the substrate until it stops leaching ammonia, then use it. (which you'd want to do anyway if you were using it as substrate)

I don't have Crystals and the only Caridina shrimp I have are amanos.... which are even hardier than Neos. Just don't ever consider breeding them, unless you want to tamper in saltwater... even then, they aren't easy. They live with my Neos so.... whenever I do water changes or top ups.... which has been hardly ever. That is, less than once a month. The only other Caridinas I've had were YKK's, and when I had them, I was doing water changes 2-3 times a month.


The thing about shrimp is that they *DON'T* create a lot of waste! So with the right setup, you could go months with only top offs and have minimal nitrates in a shrimp tank! That said, minerals are still depleted in a tank by shrimp and plants, as well as trace and micro nutrients so it's still a good idea to do water changes at least 1-4 times a month.



The hard part about recommending tap water is that it varies so much! (as I mentioned before about my tap vs my sisters - and we live about 10 minutes away from each other) And you don't know what the water treatment companies use in the water! Some homes have water softeners which lower GH at the expense of higher KH. Add in the copper pipes and it could be a recipe for disaster for shrimp. Copper pipes aren't an issue if you let the water run for a bit to flush the pipes out, but there's still the other potential issues.

I used tap water for my shrimp, and I did for the YKK's as well, but I had to add more GH to it. I didn't add any KH.



*aotf* has been pretty spot on with the responses!


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> Nice, then you're already doing better than a lot of new shrimpers! (My first neo tank had Amazonia in it, what a nightmare...) To answer your question with the new context: water changes for cards should have extremely low kH, meaning the Amazonia's buffering ability wouldn't really mess with it. You would be remineralizing gH and making sure pH and TDS are in the right range, all of which play nicely with Amazonia.
> *Haha thanks! It's good to know I'm not going in the wrong direction. What are some popular remineralizing salts? I think my tap would deplete*
> 
> True, Amazonia can be tricky. There are other substrates that are often used for shrimp that don't have the same ammonia issues (Controsoil comes to mind, maybe SL Aqua?). Another possibility is simply to let the Amazonia leech its ammonia outside of the tank for a month or so before putting it in (bucket + bubbler + water changes?). The exhaustion won't happen overnight, you might start to see rising pH/kH over a couple months (and possible instability after a water change but those are harder to "see").
> ...





Zoidburg said:


> Ya.... I don't get the protein content of bloodworms either... just that they are animal protein.
> 
> The IAL do leach tannins but if you only use 1 every 2+ weeks and keep up with water changes, it shouldn't be a big difference. Now, if you flood the tank with them, you'll probably see a higher pH swing. Saying that, I've overfilled one tank with alder cones and the tank was a dark tea color, nearly coffee like... and the pH was still above 7... -shrugs- Other people have managed to get the pH lower using tannins, but for whatever reason, it didn't work for me. (I have soft water... so pH swings should be "easy")
> *Water chemistry never is simple eh? Maybe you should try driftwood and peat too. I also have activated carbon, so maybe that'll remove tannin.*
> ...


*
Answers in Bold
You guys are both fantastic. I'm getting more help and advice than I expected! The learning is also making my desire for more shrimps increase, but I'll try my best to stay calm. *


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Salty Shrimp is a popular remineralizer, but there's also SL-Aqua, Vin Wizard, Shrimp Nature, etc. There's several to choose from. There's also powder vs liquid. Liquid may cost more but it can also contain more things that shrimp need. Powder is cheaper but contains less. Both can be used successfully with shrimp.

Amazonia has *great* buffering capabilities and is also *great* for plants. For some people, it has even buffered below 5 pH as per their tests. The late Takashi Amano made the soil quite popular in the aquascaping community as well.... after being inspired to create it from the Amazon forest. A soil rich in nutrients.

NATURE AQUARIUM GOODS HISTORY | ADA

Many other soils don't leach ammonia and are still great at buffering the pH down and great for plants as well.


Since I have several tanks, I'll sometimes remineralize up to 5 gallons of water at a time, and whatever's not used gets "stored" until next time. I don't do so intentionally, but I'm also a bit too lazy to remineralize the exact amount I need each time. I don't base water changes on nitrates, in fact I don't normally check those unless I feel there's something wrong with the tank, but I'm also doing low tech tanks - not high tech. If I was doing high tech, that answer may be different.



The driftwood I have doesn't do anything for the pH... done peat and alder cones. Still high pH. Have carbon and Purigen, too. Wasn't trying to lower the pH, just introduce tannins, which worked.


My S.O. has chosen to get into guppy breeding and keeping. Haven't gotten that far yet in that adventure! lol


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Haha thanks! It's good to know I'm not going in the wrong direction. What are some popular remineralizing salts? I think my tap would deplete
> *For neos, SaltyShrimp GH/KH+ is a good product. Dry salts are more annoying to work with than liquid remineralizers but you're getting a better bang for your buck. SALTYSHRIMP - Shrimp Mineral GH/KH+ - Minerals and Trace Elements You can find the 100g online for $23 online with shipping from a number of sellers.*
> 
> Just hoping I can catch the depletion before I put the shrimps in jeopardy. It seems like Amazonia is immensely popular even with the ammonia leaching, why is that?
> ...


Glad to help out! MTI syndrome is real and dangerous. It will take a while but get one tank down right before getting more, that way you will only make your "first tank mistakes" once.


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## JusticeBeaver (Oct 28, 2017)

Zoidburg said:


> Any buffering subsrate will need to be replaced eventually. They will lose their buffering capacities sooner or later. SL-Aqua, Amazonia, Prodibio, Controsoil or others would all be fine! I personally wouldn't recommend Fluval as I've heard it tends to turn to mush and doesn't last as long as other substrates, plus it doesn't buffer the pH down very low, but otherwise it shouldn't matter much what one you go with.


You don't necessarily need to replace it once the buffering capacity runs out but the transition can be tricky. The buffering capacity of your tank simply is handled by the water rather than the substrate. However as the substrate capacity runs out you need to act quickly to make sure you're not in no-man's land for buffering. Of course at some point the soil does just turn to mush so replacing it might be worth it anyway.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Soil with zero KH can have wide pH swings. If you add KH to keep the pH stable, that raises the pH. Trying to control pH by other means can potentially be difficult or tricky to accomplish and still maintain desired water parameters for shrimp who may not breed in higher pH water.


One person recently realized that when their soil gets to 2-3 years of age, even when the water parameters are still within range, her shrimp stop breeding. Place onto fresh soil that has had a chance to cycle and the shrimp immediately berry up again. This may indicate that there could be something more to just correct parameters for these shrimp.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> Amazonia has *great* buffering capabilities and is also *great* for plants. For some people, it has even buffered below 5 pH as per their tests. The late Takashi Amano made the soil quite popular in the aquascaping community as well.... after being inspired to create it from the Amazon forest. A soil rich in nutrients.
> 
> NATURE AQUARIUM GOODS HISTORY | ADA
> 
> ...





aotf said:


> Hard to say, I would just be guessing but I think it's a combination of name recognition (ADA is big with plant people because it's very nutrient rich) and availability.
> 
> *As long as it works, I'm willing to pay a premium. I've read on this forum that the other supplements from ADA are snake oil or just for calm of mind for people.*
> 
> ...


*Answers in Bold*
Do you guys know if there are any forums that has detailed genetics both for Neos and Caridina Cantonesis? Only one I've seen that seems comprehensive is the Piterrr's one on shrimp spot.

Also, I got around 30 Fire Reds from a local breeder as well as 3 Blue Diamonds from LFS. One of my Yellows just hatched 20+ and other one is berried. Things are getting exciting! In case you are wondering, they are all separated so no genetic mash ups.


Edit:


Zoidburg said:


> Soil with zero KH can have wide pH swings. If you add KH to keep the pH stable, that raises the pH. Trying to control pH by other means can potentially be difficult or tricky to accomplish and still maintain desired water parameters for shrimp who may not breed in higher pH water.
> 
> 
> One person recently realized that when their soil gets to 2-3 years of age, even when the water parameters are still within range, her shrimp stop breeding. Place onto fresh soil that has had a chance to cycle and the shrimp immediately berry up again. This may indicate that there could be something more to just correct parameters for these shrimp.


I thought KH buffers from going acidic, so the buffering ability of soils must be something else as it buffers from going basic. Buffer solutions were a complete mystery to me even when I took courses using them, so I could be completely mistaken.

I guess if the needs comes to be, I may set up an extra empty tank to rotate shrimps around when their tank's buffering ability drops.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I wasn't clear, in that I meant to have tannins in the tank, although I don't exactly recall what I ended up doing to remove them. Had shrimp deaths regardless of what I did, although they did fine in the black water... only, they aren't easy to enjoy when you can't see them, even with the lights on!


Yes, KH helps keep the pH around neutral or higher. However, if the soil is exhausted, as in, it has a harder time keeping the pH stable or keeping it below 7, then you either need to replace the soil or find other methods to keep the pH lower. Other methods can include tannins, humic acid, CO2, etc. However, these methods may not be as stable as using the buffering soil with correct water parameters, especially when it comes to water changes and the water going in is different than the water that came out. It may require pre-treating new water with whatever you are using to keep the pH low in the tank. If not done correctly, this could result in unstable parameters. Buffering soil, when it's still 1 to maybe 2 years old, can be more reliable than trying to keep low pH using other methods.


My S.O. has picked up a variety of males (dumbo, cobra, white moscow, "fancy") and later got some galaxy females and "blonde" females. (some kind of look grey, at least one looks golden?) A galaxy male also snuck in with the galaxy females. (now with the other males) Have had at least one fry from a galaxy female and another from one of the blondes. So at this point, there's guppies in 3 tanks, males in one, galaxy females in another and blondes in the last. Haven't attempted to breed them yet, despite getting a fry in each of the female tanks! We've had them for nearly 1 1/2 months and only had the fries within the past week? So yes, get what you mean there! LOL



Would be interested in your shrimp experiments if you go through with it! And yes, the breeder is correct about CRS. Start off right, they are easy to care for. Start off wrong and you may very well struggle. Seen it every now and then when people don't understand why their CRS are lethargic or not breeding... usually pH, KH and GH are too high and they are using inert soil with tap water. Came across someone else who's using Neo remineralizers for CRS and can't seem to figure out how to lower KH... Shrimp are too young to breed so can't say if the parameters are "okay" or not for them though.


Also, Piterrr's images aren't correct. I can't say how they are incorrect, only that Chris Lukhaup says they are not correct, and I'm willing to believe what he says since he studies them both in the wild as well as within the aquarium. I realize how bad that sounds, since he hasn't described how the images are incorrect. He's only said that the Caridina Cantenosis one has nothing to do with Caridina Cantenosis. Still, the images are a good general reference.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> I wasn't clear, in that I meant to have tannins in the tank, although I don't exactly recall what I ended up doing to remove them. Had shrimp deaths regardless of what I did, although they did fine in the black water... only, they aren't easy to enjoy when you can't see them, even with the lights on!
> 
> *I had black water for Neons in the past and the colors dull up quite a bit. Did you end up raising shrimps in nonblack water without dying?*
> 
> ...


*Responses in Bold*


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*I had black water for Neons in the past and the colors dull up quite a bit. Did you end up raising shrimps in nonblack water without dying?*

Yes, and shortly after my success of having tons of berried females *full* of eggs (more so than normal) and everyone doing great, I had a massive die off... not once... but twice.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...183073-how-kill-your-shrimp-2-easy-steps.html

Tanks have, for the most part, been neglected ever since. Cherries are still breeding, and the bloody mary's have literally only *JUST* started maybe 2 months ago? No survival of offspring yet, though... first berried female dropped her eggs before they hatched... put them in a tumbler and had some hatches... haven't seen them since putting them back into the tank.


*XD Hopefully, they didn't just get pregnant before coming to you. If they did, you are gonna have several batches of fatherless frys. You and your S.O. can probably get a practice raising the frys, since if you don't raise them well from birth, their size is quite small compared to ones you get sold.*

All the males from stores (except galaxy male), the females from "local" guppy breeder. A few of the females are rather large. Last count, up to 1 galaxy fry and 2 blondes. There's some older fry as well, mostly blondes, that came with the adults. We've had the females for 1 1/2 months, males have been purchased at various times.


*CRS parameters sometimes seems like a mystery though. My LFS kept CRS in a tank with neos for over 6 months and they are breeding in there. I checked the parameters when I got the neos from them and it's like 8-8.2 pH, 7 KH and 10 GH. Seems off the charts from what an ideal parameters for CRS is, but they are breeding fine for some reason.*

Wonder if they were low grades? Low grade CRS tend to tolerate higher parameters than the higher grade ones do.


*Even though I called genetics, I can see that at best it's a lineage of how each colors developed to be. But it does illustrate all the common varieties out there in the market which gives a starting spot. For one, I don't even know if neos have pair of chromosome or larger set. Do you know where I can read what Chris Lukahup said? I'm seeing some books under his name, but can't seem to find an online article anywhere.*

Best to contact him through FB, and even then, answers may be broad. His website below.

Crustahunter


*What's the Caridina one? The common genetic table that's online?*

http://crustahunter.com/wp-content/gallery/shrimp-chart/rah-bop_shrimp_family_tree.jpg


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> As long as it works, I'm willing to pay a premium. I've read on this forum that the other supplements from ADA are snake oil or just for calm of mind for people.*
> Buffering substrates will help a lot with cards and none of them will be as cheap as pool sand so you'll be paying a premium on that either way. Amazonia is a good option although finicky to deal with at the onset (as you know).*
> 
> With floaters, I was afraid it would deplete the water of other minerals and block the light, is that just being overly worrisome? I have duckweed from wherever it came from and I actually like the look of them. But I've seen some passionate hate towards them, is it okay to keep them? They don't seem that hard to remove. Also what are some other good floaters?*
> ...


*
more bold stuff*


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Update: More yellows have died after top off. I see the crack on their back and it looks awfully similar to "white band of death" that some people have experienced with their shrimps. Not sure what the cause is. All the other types of neos + the 1 week old yellow and newborn yellows seem okay. 



Zoidburg said:


> *Yes, and shortly after my success of having tons of berried females *full* of eggs (more so than normal) and everyone doing great, I had a massive die off... not once... but twice.
> 
> http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...183073-how-kill-your-shrimp-2-easy-steps.html
> 
> ...


*



aotf said:



Buffering substrates will help a lot with cards and none of them will be as cheap as pool sand so you'll be paying a premium on that either way. Amazonia is a good option although finicky to deal with at the onset (as you know).

Guess that's true, might as well as try Amazonia, seems like it's a safe option that a lot of people used. My parents want to set up a nano tank with just plants for my nephew. I might try Amazonia out in there, since I don't need to buy much. I looked into Black Diamond Blasting Sand and that stuff is dirt cheap compared to other substrates. Love the looks too.

I could see this being a problem in a super high tech planted tank where any imbalance in light/CO2/ferts throws everything out of whack and triggers algae blooms. In shrimp tanks, the plants tend to be less demanding and slower growing so floaters are not a problem. I also have duckweed. It looks nice but grows quickly and can be annoying to get out when it forms a mat. Also, baby shrimp love to hide in its roots so I get really paranoid when I pull any out. I have a salvinia (forget which) that looks interesting. It's larger so easier to pull out. There are other bigger floaters that look cool that I have no experience with.

What do you mean by a mat? Does it start attaching to each other? Since my tank is 20G High, shrimps don't come up to duckweed, yet. But yea, I can see it increasing in numbers, didn't think I could see a plant double in numbers so quickly. I've never seen Salvinia at stores nearby but some of them look pretty unique.

Sounds like you've got quite an operation going on. TPT is great for strictly planted tank related stuff while I like this forum better for my shrimp questions. Always remember to K.I.S.S. There are thousands of products out there that claim to do a bunch of stuff for your tank but you can get away with very simple setups a lot of the time.

Never sold anything after I left this hobby. I knew I was eventually going to come back when I get settled down. Good advice, I plan to start with just go with root tabs + Excel to start the tank and then see what my plants seem to lack. As with any forum, there seem to be differing opinions on every topic, but thanks to all the debates everywhere I'm learning pros and cons pretty quickly.

By the way, Excel seems to be safe for shrimps with most people. There seem to be select few who had bad experiences but there seem to be overdosing associated with those cases.

There are plants that grow very well with CO2 but handle the transition away from CO2 very well (e.g MC). What that means is that you can grow out a carpet for a couple months in a show tank, cut off the CO2, and add your shrimp colony. The MC will start to grow incredibly slowly but once you have a nice carpet, that's kind of what you want. The trick is to get low-CO2 plants that will grow nicely with CO2 but will continue to look good after the CO2 injection stops. Luckily, there are plenty!

This is exactly what I wanted to know, thank you. You read my mind.  I was afraid that MC would die off after cutting CO2 off. Will growth be the only thing that will be affected (which would be ideal) or would they also change in colors or what not?

I might try DIY CO2 since I don't have to worry about the CO2 amount(If I'm not mistaken) for growing only plants. How would I go about searching for low-CO2 plants that will continue to look good after CO2 is cut? 

This is true, CRS are much easier now than they used to be thanks to the many (probably stronger) lines and the plethora of knowledge available to anyone who needs it. As Zoidburg said, start your tank off right and it's easy. Start it off wrong and we'll be hearing from you on the forums a lot.

I know back in my home country it's still nightmare to keep one alive unless they get it straight from Japan. Since it's still relatively new there. Will probably be visiting this forum often regardless, hopefully not for starting off wrong. 

I like Piterr's although the nomenclature is a bit loose (especially with blues). As far as lineage-tracing, I think it's pretty good. Take all naming conventions with a grain of salt, different people use different terms for the same shrimp (and vice-versa). 
For caridina, this is helpful: https://skfaquatics.com/forum/topic/...rms-explained/

The game keeps changing and there are new strains developed (largely in Taiwan) all the time. Whether it's because of breeder secrets or the information is lost in translation, there's very little information in the US about where some of these strains came from.

Pictures are the best part of these diagrams. I can't visualize all these fancy descriptions for each color. 
Naming seems to be pretty messy. Here in Canada, just about every Blue Dream is just deeper color selected from Blue Velvet. But Piterrr uses it to describe blues from different line. 

Just out of curiosity, what's the big deal about Blue Bolts, are they hard to breed, newest in line? Never seen one in real life, but doesn't seem particularly striking.

Yeah, seems like lots of newest info are from Taiwan or Germany. Maybe I'll pick up my mandarin again.

Click to expand...

Bold as usual.*


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> What do you mean by a mat? Does it start attaching to each other? Since my tank is 20G High, shrimps don't come up to duckweed, yet. But yea, I can see it increasing in numbers, didn't think I could see a plant double in numbers so quickly. I've never seen Salvinia at stores nearby but some of them look pretty unique.*
> When growth is dense enough, the roots start to sort of tangle and you can pull out chunks of it at a time. You have to really ignore it for a while for it to get that bad. Han has a bunch of floaters. I actually got mine accidentally with a shrimp shipment.*
> 
> By the way, Excel seems to be safe for shrimps with most people. There seem to be select few who had bad experiences but there seem to be overdosing associated with those cases.
> ...


*bold bold bold*


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Molting problems can be caused by water too soft, water too hard, diet too high in animal protein, temperature too high, water changes that are too big or too fast, etc.

It's possible to have two different groups of shrimp in the same parameters and one type does great and other other fails.

*Yikes, sorry for your loss! It must have been devastating. Did you roommate apologize or try to help you rebuild your colony?*

Didn't bother telling him... it would have been worthless. I did tell him to not put anything like that in the microwave again, at least.


*I haven't seen the 30 baby cherries I bought from breeder for a while too. They started showing up today finally. Seems like they know how to find little holes between gravel really well. How successful(%) was the tumbler hatching?*

About 7 out of 10? I've had eggs hatched even when they turned white and fuzzy where everyone else would have said to toss them out.


*Oh I see, I thought you got them as a breeding pair. Hopefully, their genes are pretty solid. Sometimes they look great, but they have muddled up genetics so their offspring will look crap. My female just had a batch today and for some reason, the frys are much larger. Adults don't even try to eat them. Last batch, they ate all the frys except 1.*

That might have been the smart thing to do... the guppy breeder was actually surprised that we wanted females, not males! Because everyone wants the males! I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between cobra and galaxy though... I don't know if any of the adults attempted to eat the offspring - I just know that we unexpectedly had a galaxy fry hiding on the heater, then a few days later, there was a blonde one. Couple days after that, there were two blondes! The galaxy likes to hide in the plants (given to us as duckweed... with frogbit mixed in it.... it's riccia fluitans with duckweed! duckweed is not frogbit...) and the blondes were hiding in the rocks. They've since graduated to plants as well.


*They were A+ to SS in my eyes. But then I don't trust my eyes. Colors look pretty solid too.*

Maybe a better question is, are they CRS or PRL's? CRS will throw Golden where-as PRL will throw Snow White's. CRS have been crossed with other shrimp to achieve their strong colors where-as PRL's were bred for them. Although I'm not sure how many stores would actually be selling PRL's since they tend to come with a hefty price tag, and CRS, as expensive as they are, are still typically much cheaper.


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> When growth is dense enough, the roots start to sort of tangle and you can pull out chunks of it at a time. You have to really ignore it for a while for it to get that bad. Han has a bunch of floaters. I actually got mine accidentally with a shrimp shipment.
> 
> *My duckweed came with the shrimp batch as well. Though with HOB filters they only grow in very select areas. I'll take a look, but as I mentioned in another post, hopefully he ships to Canada. It's harder to find variety here. *
> 
> ...





Zoidburg said:


> Molting problems can be caused by water too soft, water too hard, diet too high in animal protein, temperature too high, water changes that are too big or too fast, etc.
> 
> It's possible to have two different groups of shrimp in the same parameters and one type does great and other other fails.
> 
> ...


*Maybe I'll try Italics next time.*


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Smaller is what I want anyways, guessing it looked closer to HC by then. Could you tell me what substrate/fert/light you used for MC after taking the CO2 off?*
> Thrive every... whenever I felt like it (1-2 pumps per month), Amazonia, Planted+. Lighting cycle varied depending on algae control. 2 photoperiods with a siesta in the afternoon. I've heard a lot of good things about that strategy, I just did it because I could look at my tanks before and after work.
> *
> I'm only getting MC and maybe some moss to attach to rocks. I have some Anubias and Java Fern in my tank now and stem plants aren't really appealing to me yet. When you took off CO2 for MC, did you even forgo Excel or livestock for CO2?*
> ...


_bold?_


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I've used a few different guides, made a couple of my own tumblers, but eventually purchased the iBron Shrimp Brooder because I just wanted something that looked nice and was likely to last long. (or longer than what I'd made at least).

Reading guides, I saw that guppies typically have 2-200 fry... so I was wondering if any were eaten or if they just didn't have many offspring. Never saw the females giving birth, after all...

Didn't have any floaters as we didn't know if the females were in fact pregnant or not, and after a month, didn't see any fry, so started to think there weren't any. Then the galaxy fry was found and added floaters then. Haven't added any floaters for the blonde gups yet.

Article looks interesting, but can't say I'm particularly interested in guppy genetics... lol Parrot genetics though? I've got an interest there! So I do at least have a basic understanding of recessive, dominant, co-dominant, etc. I'm more interested in shrimp genetics than guppy genetics. Still, I appreciate the article and I'll have to take a better look at it later!  


Not sure if it's good or bad that the store has crystals (regardless of what they are) in the water that they do. On one hand, it's nice for those who don't want to go all "high tech" for a shrimp tank, but there's always a possibility of issues arising when someone does want to use proper water parameters for crystals but they are acclimated to Neo parameters. There is a local person here (and also a member of this forum) who has crystals on black diamond media blasting sand (we have to travel at least 30+ mins away to get any...) and is using tap water cut with RO water (and remineralized), ThriveS and CO2. Plants and shrimp are doing great! And he also purchased the shrimp from someone else (also member of this forum) who basically raised them on remineralized tap.


You might find interest reading their posts as well. One is clownplanted, the other natemcnutty.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1162650-20l-crs-medium-tech-we-have-babies.html


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> thrive every... Whenever i felt like it (1-2 pumps per month), amazonia, planted+. Lighting cycle varied depending on algae control. 2 photoperiods with a siesta in the afternoon. I've heard a lot of good things about that strategy, i just did it because i could look at my tanks before and after work.
> 
> *thrives from nilocg? The whole ei fertilizing was giving me a headache, all in one sounds like my cup of tea. Planted+ is light model right? 2 photoperiod sounds good and there seems like some validity in the theory. I too want to be able to view the tanks before and after work.*
> 
> ...





zoidburg said:


> i've used a few different guides, made a couple of my own tumblers, but eventually purchased the ibron shrimp brooder because i just wanted something that looked nice and was likely to last long. (or longer than what i'd made at least).
> 
> *how often do you experience a situation where you have to hatch the eggs on your own? I might look into investing in one if it's a common occurence.*
> 
> ...


b*o*l*d*


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Probably only a few times a year needed for an egg tumbler. I didn't use one during the massive die off, and looking back, it probably wouldn't have done any good anyway... that is, if I had any hatch within the two week time period, they would have died after the second poisoning... knock on wood, no issues since.

Saying that, I have now spotted *one* young shrimp in the bloody mary tank.

Did see the angular looking anus, but not being familiar with guppies, wasn't sure.


Parakeet means any small parrot with a long tapering tail. By extension, this includes conures!  What they sell in stores as "parakeets" are budgerigars, or budgies, for short. I currently have one cockatiel, one mitred conure, one african ringneck and might be picking up a green cheek conure today. (as a foster situation in the beginning - may change in time). I've always had dogs and cats in my life - although since the passing of my last cat (last year...), I haven't gotten another cat. (yet) I've had other random animals in my life here and there, however birds have been a part of my life for over half my life time. I've had my cockatiel the longest at 16+ years (she's not the oldest though!).

I'm in northern Nevada, and the combined population in this area is around 350k people. Despite this, we only have two LFS, one of which is closing down thanks to a new law about exotics (they had[?] a Tract pet wallaby, prairie dogs, degus, coatimundis...). Heard a rumor that some employees might be opening up a new store. The other store doesn't really have much in the way of freshwater supplies... or supplies at all. It's a shame, really. We have 3 Petcos, 3 Petsmarts, several other smaller type pet stores (that mainly cater towards dogs and cats), 6 Walmarts... despite all this, it really sucks if you are in any specialized hobby such as fish or birds. Shrimp? Even worse...


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> thrives from nilocg? The whole ei fertilizing was giving me a headache, all in one sounds like my cup of tea. Planted+ is light model right? 2 photoperiod sounds good and there seems like some validity in the theory. I too want to be able to view the tanks before and after work.
> *I use Thrive (the non-shrimp version) because I bought it before ThriveS was on the market. I figured I'd start with all-in-one before moving to dry-dosing but it turns out I use it so little that I think I'll just stick with it and spare myself the headache (I've used about half a bottle in 8 months). Finnex Planted+ is indeed the light model. It's a nice light although it errs very far into the "warm" territory, which might be a turn-off for some.*
> 
> lol i'll stick to no excel or dosing only before i get the shrimp in. You are right having too many variables will make it hard to identify problems. Have you heard of enhance by nilocg? I saw it on the website listed as substitute for excel.
> ...


*dlob*


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Zoidburg said:


> Saying that, I have now spotted *one* young shrimp in the bloody mary tank.
> 
> *You can probably expect more than considering how well the shrimplets survive. Unless you have hungry fish in the tank.  Hopefully it's a bloody mary, I heard they don't breed that true.*
> 
> ...





aotf said:


> I use Thrive (the non-shrimp version) because I bought it before ThriveS was on the market. I figured I'd start with all-in-one before moving to dry-dosing but it turns out I use it so little that I think I'll just stick with it and spare myself the headache (I've used about half a bottle in 8 months). Finnex Planted+ is indeed the light model. It's a nice light although it errs very far into the "warm" territory, which might be a turn-off for some.
> *
> Well if it works for you, no reason to try to change. Haha, I barely understand what warm territory means. Finnex does seem like a decent brand though, I was looking at their clip ons to buy for nano. How often do you change your bulbs?*
> 
> ...


*Back from a bold family day holiday*


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Well if it works for you, no reason to try to change. Haha, I barely understand what warm territory means. Finnex does seem like a decent brand though, I was looking at their clip ons to buy for nano. How often do you change your bulbs?*
> "Warm" means it's got a redder profile while "cold" means more blue, like when you're buying light bulbs and choosing between soft white (warm) and daylight (cold). Not sure why, seems like the opposite of light temperature. Weird. Most aquarists seem to like colder lights with a bluer representation. As for how often I change the bulbs... welcome to the age of LEDs! Never! I have four tanks and none of them use bulbs, I think that's pretty typical now. Much lower power consumption, cost has dropped enough, and they're more than bright enough for aquarists.
> I hated the Finnex StingRay clip-on. Bad color representation, everything just looked dark green.
> 
> ...


This is 10 min after planting everything. Phone picture so eh. There's some marsilea crenata at the bottom that needs to fill in as the carpet and I want to get some fissidens mini on the branches. This is going to be my BB tank. 









EDIT: If Zoidburg sees this, I'm going to get a stern talking-to about the seiryu leeching kH and the substrate being inert.  The seiryu has been sealed with epoxy so the kH doesn't drift and the canister has several cups of Controsoil so I can swap it out without trashing the entire tank.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

I am up to at least 2 babies in the Bloody Mary tank... one is older, as if it's been hiding in there for a while now, and the newest one is younger, newly hatched.

Correct on how to sex budgies - although even the experts can get it wrong!  And to be clear, I only have 3 birds. I used to have several more, but age related health issues and cancer tend to take them...  

Casey, my tiel, isn't noisy at all. If anything, she's a bit of an instigator and likes to go exploring - mostly for a place to nest. She'll never have babies. Sylphie, the african ringneck, hardly ever makes noise, and when she does, it sounds tropical! (unless someone's in her way and she's 'growling' at them to try and get them to move!) Charlie, my mitred conure, on the other hand, is the noisy one! He doesn't scream all the time, but leaving the room and leaving him behind is a sure fire way of having him screaming for several seconds until he settles down! I was told he was something else before I picked him up, but knew what he was the moment I saw him. Kind of like someone saying they have a husky dog, but when you see the dog, you realize it's a malamute. To you, the difference is obvious, but to them, the two breeds look the same. In short, I didn't expect him to be as loud as he is, but I'm also used to it! lol

I only have birds and fish/shrimp now... which I guess you could technically say is the same... since birds branched off from reptiles years ago and grew feathers... and perhaps once I get the pictures from phone to computer, I could send you one of the pictures! Need to get my computer back as well... (took it in for a drive upgrade/any repairs as needed)


As far as the LFS, they didn't sell the wallaby, tortoises, pigs, coatimundis, and some of their reptiles... (store pets) but they did sell prairie dogs and degus. There's a ridiculous amount of insurance required for certain animals, such as $25,000 per animal - and I think that might have been the lower tiered exotics? It's ridiculous... their last day open will be Sunday though... so I'll have to see if I can find out if the rumor is true and that they're opening up a new shop. The law basically says that if you can't buy that animal from a standard pet store (re: Petco, Petsmart, Petland, Pet Supermarket, etc), then you can't have it. In this area, the only dogs you can buy from a pet store are often puppy mill dogs... There are no stores that sell cats, but you can adopt a cat from the stores that work with the SPCA/Humane Society to find cats homes. But hey, it's two small cities with big city aspirations! Despite that, the area is pretty secluded... great for outdoor sports (hiking, biking, skiing, boating, hang gliding, etc) but those specialized animal hobbies? Not really... 




*aotf* I've got more faith in you than I do in most people who are getting Caridina's for the first time and throw a pretty little scape together, without even considering that what they are putting into the tank might not be suitable for the shrimp! LOL I'm sure that if you end up having any issues with the tank, you'll be able to figure out how to correct it!


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> As for how often I change the bulbs... welcome to the age of LEDs! Never! I have four tanks and none of them use bulbs, I think that's pretty typical now. Much lower power consumption, cost has dropped enough, and they're more than bright enough for aquarists.
> I hated the Finnex StingRay clip-on. Bad color representation, everything just looked dark green.
> 
> *LOL, the new era began already. I found LEDs to be quite inferior to others back when I had multiple tanks, but I guess technology never stops improving. In fact, I was surprised and enjoy how powerful my cheap built-in LED hood is.
> ...





Zoidburg said:


> Correct on how to sex budgies - although even the experts can get it wrong!  And to be clear, I only have 3 birds. I used to have several more, but age related health issues and cancer tend to take them...
> 
> *Sorry to hear that, health issues with anything but dogs and cats are hard to deal with.  There's only one vet in my city that will see birds and none for reptiles.*
> 
> ...


This past weekend I compartmentalized my 20G beyond breeder boxes and got few new stock from ShrimpFever. 14 Bloody Marys, 2 berried Blue Diamond and 3 Ultra Fire Reds. Quite impressed with the quality of their color and the price wasn't bad (in my opinion) with their sales. I paid about $40CAD for 14 BMs.

Also, LFS that was carrying Crystals in 8.2 pH gave me 3 juveniles to take home, so I'll see if these guys will breed on tap. Personally, don't think they will, but they are quite lively.

Has either of you seen rusty brown on the back of Blue Diamond? I've noticed it on one of the berried females I got after a day. Both are also very deep in color.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Oh, thanks for the review, I don't care much for dark greens, I prefer brighter and cooler-toned color. Do you have Planted+ for your new tank as well? The color looks nice.*
> That is indeed the Planted+. It emphasizes reds quite well (which is great for red plants/shrimp) but blues look less spectacular under it. Things also don't look as starkly bright, I think that's an effect of the added reds. I'm throwing in a picture comparing the Planted+ to a more traditionally "cool" light. You can clearly see how one emphasizes reds while the other makes greens pop. Both tanks have the same substrate, rocks, and plants (barring a couple exceptions). One has more algae because it's a little older. Also, old phone picture again so... sorry.
> 
> 
> ...


pshyoo pshyoo


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> That is indeed the Planted+. It emphasizes reds quite well (which is great for red plants/shrimp) but blues look less spectacular under it. Things also don't look as starkly bright, I think that's an effect of the added reds. I'm throwing in a picture comparing the Planted+ to a more traditionally "cool" light. You can clearly see how one emphasizes reds while the other makes greens pop. Both tanks have the same substrate, rocks, and plants (barring a couple exceptions). One has more algae because it's a little older. Also, old phone picture again so... sorry.
> 
> *Comparison is really helpful, thanks. Besides the growth, I see how different light can make tank look. Is the other light just regular stand? Planted+ might not be for me. I'm wanting a bright light that will accentuate light green, clear blue like that of blue velvet and bloody mary's clear red. Not even sure such thing exists.*
> 
> ...


Some photos of my shrimps with my nonexistent photography skills. Please disregard my layout, I'm in process of removing the plants and relocating and organizing the shrimps.

Here's a photo of my Blue Diamond female with brown patch. (Tiny one near the eye)








Other Blue Diamond which I suspect is a male. This one's from another store and I suspect that it may be mislabeled since the color is so far off.








This is a Bloody Mary less than 1cm long. It's one of the lightest one, but I guess I just prefer lighter bloody mary.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Comparison is really helpful, thanks. Besides the growth, I see how different light can make tank look. Is the other light just regular stand?
> *wut. Not sure what you're asking.*
> 
> Planted+ might not be for me. I'm wanting a bright light that will accentuate light green, clear blue like that of blue velvet and bloody mary's clear red. Not even sure such thing exists.
> ...


doodoodoo


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> wut. Not sure what you're asking.
> 
> *Lol my apologies, that was a bit of Konglish combined with late night. We call Floor Lamps 'stand'. I was just wondering if the light you are using for the tank on the left is just a regular floor lamp or a brand made for aquariums.*
> 
> ...


*dolb*


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Lol my apologies, that was a bit of Konglish combined with late night. We call Floor Lamps 'stand'. I was just wondering if the light you are using for the tank on the left is just a regular floor lamp or a brand made for aquariums.
> *https://www.amazon.com/Aquarium-Asta-20-Multi-Color-Programmable/dp/B07236CXBQ?th=1
> Cheap, bright, cold. Might be your jam. It's what I have on the left tank (looks green because of all of the floaters and algae on the rocks). Because the LEDs are concentrated (unlike on the Planted+), you get more defined shadows and starker contrasts. Floaters moving over the top of your water leave interesting moving shadows across the scape, sort of like clouds.*
> 
> ...


Blue Bold


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> Cheap, bright, cold. Might be your jam. It's what I have on the left tank (looks green because of all of the floaters and algae on the rocks). Because the LEDs are concentrated (unlike on the Planted+), you get more defined shadows and starker contrasts. Floaters moving over the top of your water leave interesting moving shadows across the scape, sort of like clouds.
> 
> *Does sound like my type of light. Grass looks lighter on the tank with that light. Any noticeable downside for plant growth and what not? Or because the light doesn't hit the tank evenly?*
> 
> ...


*Damn Nice Blue Bold
*


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Does sound like my type of light. Grass looks lighter on the tank with that light. Any noticeable downside for plant growth and what not? Or because the light doesn't hit the tank evenly?*
> I haven't been able to pinpoint anything specific to that light, the tanks have different parameters beyond the lighting so it's hard to say. I don't think it's a big deal with the plants I have (all slow growers) but you might have some issues with plants that have high light demands. I think it's a good deal for ~$40 (not sure in CAD) but it's obviously not a high-tech light (which would easily run you $100+).
> 
> *Woooooow, yours doesn't look like BB I've seen in photos and ShrimpFever. The head color is so.. crystal ball like, I love it. And the contrasting body too, just wow. Grats to your new addition.
> ...


Check out Blue Steels!


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

aotf said:


> Thanks! All the others look like normal low-to-mid-grade BBs, this one is a little bit of a surprise. Reminds me of Blue Steels, which I would love to have, although I think it might just be a strangely colored BB. Hard to say without any information about the genetics. Either way, I'm definitely going to try to breed this one out once they're old enough.
> 
> *Lol this is the first I heard of Blue Steel but it does look like one. I would love to get one but I see it listed as $46. XD I hope yours pop out babies that look like it, and you can sneak few up to Canada for me. *
> 
> ...


Found some Blue Diamond Shrimplet, so looks like eggs hatched. Somehow these guys were small enough to go through the slit when my yellow shrimplets didn't. I guess there's variability in the shrimplet size.

They look so blue, I didn't know shrimplets could have color right off hatching.


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## aotf (Dec 19, 2016)

Luciferene said:


> Lol this is the first I heard of Blue Steel but it does look like one. I would love to get one but I see it listed as $46. XD I hope yours pop out babies that look like it, and you can sneak few up to Canada for me. *
> Yeah, they're hard to source in N. America. I haven't seen anyone breeding and selling them here, all the ones I've seen for sale are imports and they tend to go for quite a bit. Cheapest I've seen is $15/shrimp (I think).*
> 
> They look so blue, I didn't know shrimplets could have color right off hatching.
> *Blue Diamonds look good from the day they're born! You'll start to see differences in their coloration and patterning after a couple weeks but you'll know from the start which ones aren't going to color up nicely.*


*blehh*


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## Luciferene (Feb 7, 2018)

Thanks for all your help! Got me on track pretty nicely.


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