# anyone ever use these CRS mineral rocks?



## spypet (Sep 15, 2006)

my guess it's a weekend food block of 20-30% calcium carbonate which makes a good calcium supplement for all shellfish.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

spypet said:


> my guess it's a weekend food block of 20-30% calcium carbonate which makes a good calcium supplement for all shellfish.


Well it's being sold as a "water treatment" mineral rock for CRS??


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

So, a weekend food block is good to put in with shrimp?


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## Burks (May 21, 2006)

Check that topic for more information. There is talk of these mineral rocks on Page 2.

Topic


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## bigstick120 (May 23, 2005)

The feeder blocks are made of gypsum I believe they will alter you water chemistry. Spypet is just speculating from the sounds out it, I would just put weekend feeders in with the shrimp for the heck of it


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

That is not a weekend feeder block. Do not put them in with your shrimp. It will degrade water quality. The picture shown is a picture of mineral rock. It is supposedly used to increase water quality for the CRS. In turn it is supposed to strengthen the white color in the CRS.


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## milalic (Aug 25, 2005)

I believe it is Ca and Mg in a rock.


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## rain- (Mar 29, 2004)

Since these CRS things originate from Japan, I would suspect that one of the main reasons for using something like that is to add minerals to the water (I've heard that the water is soft around there, I think that it's about the same as here in Finland). So if you people already have hard water with some calcium, magnesium and other goodies, you won't probably need any of that stuff. On the other hand... who knows why they are used. Maybe someone from Japan would be able to explain it. 

This is one thing (sort of clay) they talk about in that other thread: Montmorillonite - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Chemically it is hydrated sodium calcium aluminium magnesium silicate hydroxide (Na,Ca)x(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2·nH2O. Potassium, iron, and other cations are common substitutes, the exact ratio of cations varies with source."

I do add some weekend feeders once in a while to my shrimp tank when I am giving some to my snails. They do need some calcium to build their shell, although they are able to take back most of the calcium from the old shell before molting it, so they don't need it that much. Might be fun to try the montmorillonite and see if it does any good in my shrimp tank.


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## kangshiang (Jun 28, 2006)

Don't you think it looks very familiar.....
I say that is Montmorillonite but some guys don't think so......
So....... no more comments.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Until someone grows out one take with montmo. and one without its snake oil to me.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

kangshiang said:


> Don't you think it looks very familiar.....
> I say that is Montmorillonite but some guys don't think so......
> So....... no more comments.


Well I got a reply from the seller who said the rock will "Melt" after a few months and it will add crucial minerals to the water. Not sure if Montmorillonite actually melts in water like this is suppose to, but if you look at the picture I posted and this one you will see that the white rock seems to be melting into the substrate. 

All the info I was able to find on Montmorillonite shows it's sold as a powder or found in SOLID rocks and not in a block form that melts??? Could it be the same thing?


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## PineyMike (Mar 22, 2006)

If Kangshiang (Shawn) uses them and says they work, then I believe him. He is probably the top 1 or 2 shrimp keepers I know of on any of the forums. All his shrimp are top notch and I challenge anybody to prove otherwise.


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## gabeszone247 (Jul 8, 2006)

Lots of Japanese breeders use these rocks and I belive they work! I think the main reason Japanese breeders use them is because the water in Japan lacks calcium. I havent used them yet but may try with my new tank I just set up yesterday. I bought an ADA 45cm cube and will post pics soon and will let you all know what I think about these mineral rocks. I have notice that my CRS are lacking in whites. Im also wondering if to much light has something to do with this.


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

If it really is just calcium and magnesium then I'm pretty sure you can go to any store like WalMart and pick up some Dolomite supplements and throw them in.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

Actually, true montmorillonite is a clay that is inCREDIBLY insoluble. When creating a landfill they typically fill the bottom of it with a clay like montmorillonite to keep water from penetrating it. This whole ad montmo to your tank and your shrimp will blind your eyes with color thing is still very suspect to me.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

ianmoede said:


> Actually, true montmorillonite is a clay that is inCREDIBLY insoluble. When creating a landfill they typically fill the bottom of it with a clay like montmorillonite to keep water from penetrating it. This whole ad montmo to your tank and your shrimp will blind your eyes with color thing is still very suspect to me.


I agree and no one seems to know for sure if it is montmorillonite or not. Everyone seems to say it's a rock, but have you ever seen a rock that melts? It's obvioulsy not a rock and I really don't care who elses uses them as much as I'm trying to confirm exactly what it is. Again if you look online montmorillonite is NOT sold in rock or clay form it's a powder so I again don't think it's montmorillonite.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

It might be montmorillonite powder that is whetted and formed into a ball. The insolubility in clays comes from their long chainlike, hydrophobic structure. If you could break it up into a powder, it would be more soluble. Still, I'm skeptical.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

Yeah, that's what i'm thinking. I really would like to order some, but don't think it's worth it if I have to buy it from japan especially if it is just a clay form on montmorillonite powder that I can pay half for here in the states and just dose accordingly. Plus those big ugly oosing rocks are not very nice to look at in a tank.


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## ianmoede (Oct 1, 2004)

I still am tempted to say that the improvement is just an optical illusion due to the stark whiteness of the rocks. But again, ill reserve final judgment until someone who has an ass ton of shrimps bucks up and does one tank with, one without.


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## kangshiang (Jun 28, 2006)

How about this????
This is my 10 G tank....I don't know how many in there....
It's only a corner when I feed them.....


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## rain- (Mar 29, 2004)

MikeNas102 said:


> If Kangshiang (Shawn) uses them and says they work, then I believe him. He is probably the top 1 or 2 shrimp keepers I know of on any of the forums. All his shrimp are top notch and I challenge anybody to prove otherwise.


I highly doubt that kangshiang is top shrimp keeper because of some additives. He is a good breeder because he knows what he is doing. He doesn't need montmorillonite to get good CRS.

In the other thread he said that he hasn't noticed any obvious result with using the stuff.


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## kangshiang (Jun 28, 2006)

rain- said:


> I highly doubt that kangshiang is top shrimp keeper because of some additives. He is a good breeder because he knows what he is doing. He doesn't need montmorillonite to get good CRS.
> 
> In the other thread he said that he hasn't noticed any obvious result with using the stuff.


Thanks for your appreciation Mike.....:icon_redf :icon_redf :icon_redf :icon_redf :icon_redf 
I couldn't say that I am top shrimp keeper.
I am just a student here and crazy in love with CRS..:icon_cool 
Actually everyone has their own way to breed these shrimp....
I have bred the CRS for 2 years and heard lot of different way to breed them without any problem...
As I know one of my friend can breed the CRS in a 2G tank with a tiny hang on filter but keeping around 300 pieces of them......without any plants and substrate in there.. 
So what will you say about that??????????

I keep telling everyone that the point to breed CRS is the water quality.
How to have best water quality??? only because some rocks or anything else?
Please think about it....:icon_roll 
So actually those still unknown rocks, I will say might help the water quality cause when I using them it did make water look different(more clear) ....but will really help CRS????? 
The answer is ........:icon_ques :icon_ques :icon_ques :icon_ques


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

Well i'll stop by tomorrow and pick up a good amount of those shrimp and try it out! Only one way to tell! I just hope that paying $20 for that "rock" is worth it! What time should I drive by tomorrow?


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## kangshiang (Jun 28, 2006)

LGHT said:


> Well i'll stop by tomorrow and pick up a good amount of those shrimp and try it out! Only one way to tell! I just hope that paying $20 for that "rock" is worth it! What time should I drive by tomorrow?


 where you get those rock???????
can't believe you have purchase them.
Don't you forget I told you I will have some for you for free???


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

Well I didn't buy it yet, but i'll try it out and if they seem to work I can buy replacement afterward.


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

The rocks are available on E-bay at an absurd price. My last trip to Japan I bought two small bags (4 ozs each) for 500 yen each. That's about $20 for a pound. The source on E-bay is asking basically $14 for 3 rocks which should be about 1 ounce.


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

turbomkt said:


> The rocks are available on E-bay at an absurd price. My last trip to Japan I bought two small bags (4 ozs each) for 500 yen each. That's about $20 for a pound. The source on E-bay is asking basically $14 for 3 rocks which should be about 1 ounce.


Yeah I noticed. That's why i'm desperate to find out if I can substitute the rock with daily doses of the powder form to achive the same effect. I'll probably test the powder on one of my other tanks to see if it helps at all.


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

My lfs has the powder form, as well as the rocks.


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## PineyMike (Mar 22, 2006)

rain- said:


> I highly doubt that kangshiang is top shrimp keeper because of some additives. He is a good breeder because he knows what he is doing. He doesn't need montmorillonite to get good CRS.
> 
> In the other thread he said that he hasn't noticed any obvious result with using the stuff.


I never meant to imply that Shawn has great shrimp because of a rock. I give him more credit than that. He has great shrimp because he knows what he is doing. Much more so than most others I've seen or read about around here or other forums. What I am saying is that if Shawn feels the rocks either work or don't work I put a good deal of faith in his opinion.


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

turbomkt said:


> My lfs has the powder form, as well as the rocks.


Hey, you guys are lucky to have a source in Southern CA, do you know of anyplace I can get this stuff in Northern CA? (the special food and rocks)?

Tina


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

Try putting up a post for in *HERE* Some of the nocal guys might know of a place. That or get in on a gruop buy and have it shipped.


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

If what I can get is brown instead of white, would anyone be interested? If I can get enough interest, I'll get 25 lbs and ship as much as anyone wants.


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

turbomkt said:


> If what I can get is brown instead of white, would anyone be interested? If I can get enough interest, I'll get 25 lbs and ship as much as anyone wants.


Does it really help the shrimp? Yep, I'll be interested in trying it.

Tina


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## NeonShrimp (Mar 9, 2006)

> I keep telling everyone that the point to breed CRS is the water quality.


This is so true!


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

Count me in.


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

OK...that's three so far.

Just as a data point...the little bag of the white rocks I bought in Japan were about 1/4 pound per bag. So the question would be how much people would want. I'm guessing $10-14 per pound shipped. That's $5-10 less than I paid for the rocks in Japan.


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## beviking (Aug 2, 2005)

Why not just use gypsum? It's calcium sulfate and a whole lot cheaper :icon_cool


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

Does anybody know if you can use Cuttlefish bone? That's the stuff you find that they give caged birds for calcium and minerals? It's definitly easy to find.

Tina


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

The point of this is not to raise hardness in the water. Doing that would be bad for the shrimp. Once again, it is supposed to increase water quality for the shrimp. Also montmorillonite is very insoluble like mentioned earlier. So it may put some calcium into the water (if it does it puts very little into the water). The montmorillonite does not contain a big percentage of calcium, it has a lot of other minerals in it.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

turbomkt said:


> If what I can get is brown instead of white, would anyone be interested? If I can get enough interest, I'll get 25 lbs and ship as much as anyone wants.





turbomkt said:


> OK...that's three so far.
> 
> Just as a data point...the little bag of the white rocks I bought in Japan were about 1/4 pound per bag. So the question would be how much people would want. I'm guessing $10-14 per pound shipped. That's $5-10 less than I paid for the rocks in Japan.



I would be interested most likely, brown would probably look better too!

Priority flat rate "thing"(they have all types of package sizes now....) is $4.15 shipped priority regardless of weight. 

PM me if you get some....

-Andrew


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## LGHT (Aug 21, 2006)

The only stuff I found was in a fine powder form that you dose like other ferts. Not sure if there is any advantage or disadvantage of using the powder or the all white rock.

Is this stuff you can order here a powder or clay??


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## ianiwane (Sep 7, 2004)

Fish Newb said:


> I would be interested most likely, brown would probably look better too!
> 
> Priority flat rate "thing"(they have all types of package sizes now....) is $4.15 shipped priority regardless of weight.
> 
> ...


Flat rate 4.05 is only for envelopes. The flat rate boxes are 8.10.

Ian


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

ianiwane said:


> Flat rate 4.05 is only for envelopes. The flat rate boxes are 8.10.
> 
> Ian


Doh -,-! Didn't realize that... Sorry!

-Andrew


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

LGHT said:


> The only stuff I found was in a fine powder form that you dose like other ferts. Not sure if there is any advantage or disadvantage of using the powder or the all white rock.
> 
> Is this stuff you can order here a powder or clay??


Clay. I just am not sure it's white.


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## sandiegoryu (Feb 15, 2006)

If I do end up buying this, is it possible to toss it in your filter?


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## tpl*co (Nov 4, 2006)

Fish Newb said:


> I would be interested most likely, brown would probably look better too!
> 
> Priority flat rate "thing"(they have all types of package sizes now....) is $4.15 shipped priority regardless of weight.
> 
> ...


OK, what is in the brown that isn't in the white that makes it brown? (iron or?...)

Aren't those little priority boxes still a low rate? OK found on the USPS website that under 1 pound is $4.05

Tina


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

tpl*co said:


> Aren't those little priority boxes still a low rate? OK found on the USPS website that under 1 pound is $4.05
> 
> Tina


Anything under 1 pound is $4.05 for priority.

-Andrew


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## turbomkt (Jun 9, 2004)

tpl*co said:


> OK, what is in the brown that isn't in the white that makes it brown? (iron or?...)


That's a good question and the reason I'm trying to get a sample rather than 25lbs off the bat.


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## !shadow! (Jan 25, 2010)

very interesting conversation about this subject l just found on google. l'm just looking more into montmorillonite powder. Might give it a try unless there is something better.


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

More or less the answer to mineral rocks is there is no reason for the US hobbyist to use them.

-Andrew


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

A Hill said:


> More or less the answer to mineral rocks is there is no reason for the US hobbyist to use them.
> 
> -Andrew





mordalphus said:


> uhhh, what are you basing that comment on? Because it's ridiculous to assume geographic location has anything to do with the usefulness of a mineral stone.


I think he means that tap water in the US tends to have a gH high enough to render mineral rocks useless.


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## Loachutus (Aug 27, 2010)

snausage said:


> I think he means that tap water in the US tends to have a gH high enough to render mineral rocks useless.


Not everywhere. :icon_wink


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

A Hill said:


> More or less the answer to mineral rocks is there is no reason for the US hobbyist to use them.
> 
> -Andrew


Say what? Sorry, but I am not sure why it would have to be US only....




snausage said:


> I think he means that tap water in the US tends to have a gH high enough to render mineral rocks useless.



If that is what he means, then he is pretty off base on making that assumption.



mordalphus said:


> my tap water has a gh of 1 on a good day, and mineral rock doesn't raise it at all in my 50 gallon. Besides that, I'd say a good portion of shrimp keepers in the US use RO water as well.


Like Liam stated, my gH is 1 as well, consistently. I have tested a small piece of mineral rock to see what it will do using a 0.9G nano tank with some in it with my tap. There was slightly to no obvious fluctuation in the water chemistry after a month. Now long term, I have yet to test that. But even if there is any fluctuation in the water long term, shrimp keepers change their water every 1 to 2 weeks. So what ever fluctuation there is, would be taken out with that wc.

Edit: I should state, that the mineral rock I used in my experiment was stuff I sell because I wanted to see if it did anything before selling it to people. Call it quality control. I can not vouch for any other mineral rock purchased.


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## snausage (Mar 8, 2010)

mordalphus said:


> my tap water has a gh of 1 on a good day, and mineral rock doesn't raise it at all in my 50 gallon. Besides that, I'd say a good portion of shrimp keepers in the US use RO water as well.





msnikkistar said:


> Say what? Sorry, but I am not sure why it would have to be US only....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


gH of 1 is definitely rare for non-well water. 

Most people do use ro water for crs tanks, but mineral rocks aren't a practical choice for reconstituting it.


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## msnikkistar (Mar 23, 2010)

snausage said:


> gH of 1 is definitely rare for non-well water.
> 
> Most people do use ro water for crs tanks, but mineral rocks aren't a practical choice for reconstituting it.
> 
> This is why plantedtank shouldn't allow the sale of non-diy dry goods in the swap'n shop: there's constantly pointless arguments where sellers are more interested in pushing their products than providing good information.


Actually, I experimented using the mineral rock I had because I had it on hand. If it was the stuff off of ebay, I would have to. As a matter of fact, I was gonna test that stuff too for my own personal research. People asked me, and I couldn't answer the question 100% without testing myself. Sharing that information is something I thought should be posted. I won't be held responsible for water chemistry fluctuation on different mineral rock, which is why I edited with that disclaimer. Just because what I use to sell didn't do anything, doesn't mean another sources won't. Besides, I don't even have any more on hand to sell, and won't for a long time. I was just giving my results so others had that information as well.


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## mordalphus (Jun 23, 2010)

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## Captivate05 (Feb 23, 2010)

The glory of the internet is that people can pretty easily find the info they are looking for and come up with conclusions for it. Here's my conclusion: they aren't a requirement (like substrates that buffer, you don't _need_ those either). However, if you have the money to blow on them, why not?

Example: my dad insists on buying these huge expensive mineral tubs for his cattle. They don't need it, they get plenty of everything they need in the high quality hay and grain they receive on a daily basis, inspected and nutritionally balanced by yours truly. However, they like them. To lick them, play with them, try to eat the molasses they drench those things with. It keeps them entertained for hours until they push it under the fence.

I'm sure the mineral rocks help, not really by giving them nutrients that they need (because this should be well covered already by a good diet) or by leeching into the water (should definitely be covered already with good stable water quality), but by enriching their lives by giving them more things to pick at. Giving them the simple selection of _what_ they can pick around on helps them live happier lives. And happy shrimp are pretty (and productive) shrimp.

Just my two cents.


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## aelysa (Oct 20, 2006)

Captivate05 said:


> ...However, they like them. To lick them, play with them, try to eat the molasses they drench those things with. It keeps them entertained for hours until they push it under the fence.


I totally got such an awesome visual 

I have to say, Montmo is some fab stuff imho. The Suls seem to like it. And holy cow, old old thread.


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