# Sword brown spots - Phosphorous Deficiency?



## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Way new to this, so before I dump in something that will cause issues with algae perhaps... 

I have one Amazon Sword. It is growing in a low tech, 45g tank, about 3 months old, in Ecco-Complete and gravel. When it started off yellow and slow, I found I needed root tabs, so there has been a Flourish tab under it for 40 days. The plant generally looks very green and healthy, and has at least doubled in size and a bit more in number of leaves since planted about 60 days ago.

I also dose the tank with Comprehensive once a week, and Iron daily, for other plants, and one cap of Excel daily.

The spots are on old growth only, at least so far (specifically 2 of about 16 leaves).

My guess from reading is this is a lack of phosphorous. Is it? 

My second guess is that the root tab is running out of energy, though the fact the plant looks otherwise so green, healthy and growing makes me wonder if the tab is fine but it just isn't getting enough (I know it is 0.17% in a tab but have no idea whether that's a lot or a little for a sword). I also have Phosphorous liquid I have yet to use.

So assuming it is Phosphorous, should I put in a new tab, or should I be dosing the water column, generally? (I do have a test kit, the water column shows just a trace, like 0.15 or so)

And variation of the question -- I have some Osmocote+ and capsules, but have yet to use one. Is this a good opportunity?

And finally -- using root tabs (of whatever variety), do people wait for deficiencies to show and then replace, or just guestimate a time and put them in? 

Top of a leaf (pretty far into the water, sorry it is out of focus):










Back side of a different leaf: 










There is a yellow color on the top of the leaves around the spots that didn't come through too clearly, generally yellow not between veins, and very close to, and only close to the spot.

Note: I do have a small pleco, he does suck on the sword occasionally, but so far does not seem to be damaging it. I do not think these are from him, but mention it as a possibility.

Water chemistry is ph=7.6, ammonia/nitrite=0, nitrates about 40 (due for water change), KH=6, GH=9, iron=trace (despite daily dosing), water very clear with light tannin color (no carbon in filter), lightly stocked and everyone healthy and happy.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

It isn't likely to be phosphorous deficiency, that deficiency is very rare in aquatic plants. Possibly a potassium deficiency though. Small pinholes surrounded by a yellow margin matches with potassium deficiency. Though in a tank with so many nitrates this seems odd as well.

Adding extra potassium shouldn't cause any issues though so I'd start there.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> It isn't likely to be phosphorous deficiency, that deficiency is very rare in aquatic plants. Possibly a potassium deficiency though. Small pinholes surrounded by a yellow margin matches with potassium deficiency. Though in a tank with so many nitrates this seems odd as well.
> 
> Adding extra potassium shouldn't cause any issues though so I'd start there.


Interesting, glad I asked -- add to the water column? 

I don't see Potassium in either Root Tabs or Osmocote+. It does appear as a major portion of Equilibrium, which I use in the RODI water mix. Though maybe it is exhausted, as that tank doesn't require (at least due to nitrates) water changes often. it is due, so maybe a fresh does of equilibrium in the added water will help?

Or do you recommend adding liquid potassium directly (I'll see if I can find some today regardless, to have).


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I normally use K2SO4 (potassium sulfate) to add potassium and I add it to the water column. I'd just buy it online, it is very cheap then use calc.petalphile.com to calculate how much to add.

Liquid potassium ferts will work as well, but they are hundreds of times more expensive than buying the pure powder online and so will last you far less. 

Are your other plants showing similar signs of damage? Do you keep any hygrophila plants? They are usually the best indicator plant for potassium problems.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> Are your other plants showing similar signs of damage? Do you keep any hygrophila plants? They are usually the best indicator plant for potassium problems.


No, they look healthy. I have Anubis and Crypt Wendtii which are both healthy and green, though barely growing (the crypt is growing more than the anubis).

I have jungle val which is running amok with growth as well.

Those and the sword are all I have, no moss or ferns (my java ferns died after about 2 days - go figure, the thing no one can kill, I can). 

Only seeing brown spots on the sword. And again, it's putting out new leaves continually and very green.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Well, no potassium at any of the fish stores I tried today. I'm going to just do a heavy water change with new Equilibrium (which has a lot of potassium), it is due anyway, and see what happens.

Can I assume that if I fix the deficiency (Potassium, or whatever it is) that these leaves are permanently scared, and my only sign it is corrected is that they don't get worse (nor new leaves start getting it)? I.e. these don't come back, right?


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## mattinmd (Aug 16, 2014)

Equilibrium sounds like a decent fix for now, assuming potassium is the issue (or ca/mg, both well represented in this product)

As for the stores having no potassium, did any of the stores have API leaf zone? That's a potassium + iron fertilizer, which you could sub in for part of one of your iron doses without too much complexity. I find it to be readily available nearly everywhere.

You'd have to do a bit of math, as Leaf Zone has 1/10th the iron concentration that seachem iron does. (although label suggested doses are 5x larger on leaf zone than seachem iron)

Also, the iron in the Leaf zone is EDTA chelate, which is ferric rather than ferrous like the seachem is. Not sure if that would affect your plants much 1x/wk, but it is a consideration.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

mattinmd said:


> As for the stores having no potassium, did any of the stores have API leaf zone? That's a potassium + iron fertilizer, which you could sub in for part of one of your iron doses without too much complexity. I find it to be readily available nearly everywhere.
> 
> ....
> Also, the iron in the Leaf zone is EDTA chelate, which is ferric rather than ferrous like the seachem is. Not sure if that would affect your plants much 1x/wk, but it is a consideration.


I didn't know to look, but will if I go back out. Just did a water change which gave a new dose of equilibrium.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

*Getting worse - suggestions?*

It's getting worse on a few leaves, despite adding potassium (first by Equilibrium in a water change, then by a regular does from Seachem Potassium). I also added a fresh root tab. All this about two weeks ago.

I also have had some green spot algae forming on the glass, not heavy, but some. And some I can see on the jungle val leaves as well.

No unusual chemistry, no fish issues, everything else looks pretty healthy (except for minor GSA). 

Here are some shots if it helps: 

#1 - overall plant view: 










#2 - largest leaf that is an issue: 










#3 - smaller ajacent leave, also has a hole:










#4 - stem of the largest leaf is also starting to rot or something:










There are four leaves showing signs, which is about a quarter of the plant.

Can this be Pleco damage, I have one small BN Pleco.

PS. It is only the oldest leaves. I just compared attachment point for all the ones damaged, and they are all on the very outside of the base of the plant, so I think they are the oldest. There is a fair amount of other older growth that looks fine, but these are definitely the oldest.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Linwood said:


> It's getting worse on a few leaves, despite adding potassium (first by Equilibrium in a water change, then by a regular does from Seachem Potassium).
> 
> Here are some shots if it helps:
> 
> ...


There's our answer. This is very likely just an emersed to submersed die off which is very common in sword plants in particular. From the first two photos you posted I couldn't see the entire leaf shape and assumed it was fully converted to submersed growth (long sword like leaves), but from this photo above you can see that the affected leaves are only the rounded ones which are emersed grown.

When swords adapt to growing underwater their older leaves, the rounded ones, are not adapted for underwater growth (they have too thick of a wax cuticle covering the leaves, have stomates for gas exchange, etc). Underwater these features prevent the leaf from exchanging gasses properly and probably directly contributes to the leaf tissue dying.

You can either trim these off or leave them on. As the leaves die the plant can salvage some nutrients from the older tissue, but it is purely up to you which method you choose. The plants will get nutrients from the root tabs and water column as well so they won't starve.


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Zapins said:


> There's our answer. This is very likely just an emersed to submersed die off which is very common in sword plants in particular.


Interesting. It's been two months, it can take that long? 

it was bought potted from a LFS, but my guess is the farm they used may have raised them emersed, as I understand many do.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Linwood said:


> Interesting. It's been two months, it can take that long?
> 
> it was bought potted from a LFS, but my guess is the farm they used may have raised them emersed, as I understand many do.


Yes. Leaf death can take a while to happen, especially with amazon sword plants. Also pet stores almost always buy sword plants in emersed form. If they have any submersed sword plants it is because they didn't sell quickly and had several months to covert to submersed form or perhaps they bought it from a customer.

You can tell that this is unlikely to be a deficiency because there is stem involvement. The veins along the leaf are deteriorating. In deficiencies this usually doesn't happen since the veins/stem are needed to transport the nutrients out of the leaf tissue up to the new tissue.

When emersed plants are added to the tank the emersed leaves aren't actively being salvaged for nutrients since the rest of the plant has enough nutrients. The death you are seeing there is probably due to a lack of resources like oxygen or something else. Not a nutrient deficiency. This is because the old emersed leaves can't exchange gases with the water because they have a waxy covering on the surface (prevents drying out when grown above water) but prevents exchange of gases underwater. The leaves are already formed so they don't need nutrients like newly forming leaves do.

This is what emersed die off looks like in swords after it has gone on for a while:
Read more about it here: http://deficiencyfinder.com/?page_id=716


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## Ghia (May 1, 2014)

Excellent post, Zapins...very informative ! Going to save this one for future reference


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## Linwood (Jun 19, 2014)

Indeed, very helpful, thank you.


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