# Fishless cycle with "Nutrafin Cycle" - Am I doing anything wrong?



## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i use nutrafin cycle on almost every tank i've ever setup. and on maintenance accounts. its a wonderful product if used within date
make sure ur shaking it well.

dosed properly and with a working filter. ammonia should be gone by day 3-4
look at the date on the bottom of the cycle bottle


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

Shake it like it is - um, a polaroid? No, more intense shaking. Shake it like if you shake it hard enough a million bucks will fly out.  It's really hard to shake some of these products well enough, honestly.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

thechibi said:


> Shake it like it is - um, a polaroid? No, more intense shaking. Shake it like if you shake it hard enough a million bucks will fly out.  It's really hard to shake some of these products well enough, honestly.


Nitrate tests if not shaken according to the directions can give anywhere from 0ppm to 80ppm for example.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

Ok, point taken.

But I have already dosed with NC according to instructions - should I just throw the rest of the bottle in?

What about a water change?

And what about adding plants?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

lol DON'T POUR THE WHOLE DOTTLE IN

have u added any ammonia sources. decaying food/ plants, fish poop? straight ammonia?

if not it'll never change. the bacteria has to have food to grow. and will die without it
at this point if the answer is no. ur seneye is probably not reading correctly


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

OK - its a 30ml bottle.

No I haven't added any sources (but I did clean a load of cat hairs off the filter - I thought that might have been the source).

So what do you recommend then, I obviously need a source. I'm not sure what bottles of household chemicals are suitable for fish tanks (in the UK). So fish food? How much? How often?

Should I do a water change now? And should I add any more Nutrafin Cycle?

So far I have added (approximately) 15ml on day 1 and 7.5ml on days 2 and 3. I should have about half a bottle left.

And should i add any plants?


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

You can use like, a shrimp in some pantyhose (from the fish section in the supermarket. Be sure it's not treated with anything), some fish food or pure and I mean PURE ammonia with no surfactants, perfumes, etc. 

And you can definitely add plants.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> lol DON'T POUR THE WHOLE DOTTLE IN
> 
> have u added any ammonia sources. decaying food/ plants, fish poop? straight ammonia?
> 
> ...


Just to respond to that last bit, I am fairly sure my seneye is reading correctly as I also have a Seachem Ammonia Alert in the tank, which is agreeing with the seneye.

*Anyway*

Moving on.

My free ammonia levels had been slowly dropping from their peak of 0.26 to about 0.20

Tonight I took out some water, added 2 lots of _Microsorum pteropus_ "Narrow" on bogwood and an _Anubias barteri_ var. nana and a _Cryptocoryne wendtii_ "Tropica", both on lava rock.

I also stirred up the Tahitian Moon Sand a fair bit (dunno if this released any gases).

I then refilled the tank with the water I had taken out.

Since then my seneye tells me my Free ammonia (NH3) has plummeted to 0.093. The bit I don't get is why my Total ammonia (NH4) is rocketing - it's gone from 10.5 to 18.8.

Mind you, the pH has also dropped from 8.5 to 8.0, dunno if that will affect it.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is the fishless cycle. 
1) Does the product you are using have Nitrospira? These are the proper cycle bacteria. (You do not really need any cycle bacteria to get a fishless cycle started) 
2) It sounds like you are not feeding the bacteria. 

Fishless Cycle
You too can boast that "No fish were harmed in the cycling of your new tank"
Cycling a tank means to grow the beneficial bacteria that will help to decompose the fish waste (especially ammonia). These bacteria need ammonia to grow. There are 3 sources of ammonia that work to do this. One is fish. Unfortunately, the process exposes the fish to ammonia , which burns their gills, and nitrite, which makes their blood unable to carry oxygen. This often kills the fish.

Another source is decomposing protein. You could cycle your tank by adding fish food or a dead fish or shellfish. You do not know how much beneficial bacteria you are growing, though. 

The best source of ammonia is... Ammonia. In a bottle. 

Using fish is a delicate balance of water changes to keep the toxins low (try not to hurt the fish) but keep feeding the bacteria. It can take 4 to 8 weeks to cycle a tank this way, and can cost the lives of several fish. When you are done you have grown a small bacteria population that still needs to be nurtured to increase its population. You cannot, at the end of a fish-in cycle, fully stock your tank. 

The fishless/ammonia cycle takes as little as 3 weeks, and can be even faster, grows a BIG bacteria population, and does not harm fish in any way. 

Both methods give you plenty of practice using your test kit. 

How to cycle a tank the fishless way: 

1) Make sure all equipment is working, fill with water that has all the stuff you will need for the fish you intend to keep. Dechlorinator, minerals for GH or KH adjustments, the proper salt mix, if you are creating a brackish or marine tank... 

2) Add some source of the bacteria. Used filter media from a cycled tank is best, gravel or some decorations or a few plants... even some water, though this is the poorest source of the beneficial bacteria. 
Bacteria in a bottle can be a source of these bacteria, but make sure you are getting Nitrospiros spp of bacteria. All other ‘bacteria in a bottle’ products have the wrong bacteria. (This step is optional. The proper bacteria will find the tank even if you make no effort to add them). Live plants may bring in these bacteria on their leaves and stems. 

3) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This is the non-sudsing, no surfactants, no-fragrance-added ammonia that is often found in a hardware store, discount stores, and sometimes in a grocery store. The concentration of ammonia may not be the same in all bottles. Try adding 5 drops per 10 gallons, then allowing the filter to circulate for about an hour, then test. If the reading isn't up to 5 ppm, add a few more drops and test again. (Example, if your test reads only 2 ppm, then add another 5 drops) Some ammonia is such a weak dilution you may need to add several ounces to get a reading. 

4) Test for ammonia daily, and add enough to keep the reading at 5 ppm. 

5) Several days after you start, begin testing for nitrites. When the nitrites show up, reduce the amount of ammonia you add so the test shows 3ppm. (Add only half as much ammonia as you were adding in part 4) Add this reduced amount daily from now until the tank is cycled. 

If the nitrites get too high (over 5 ppm), do a water change. The bacteria growth is slowed because of the high nitrites. Reducing the level of ammonia to 3 ppm should prevent the nitrite from getting over 5 ppm. 

6) Continue testing, and adding ammonia daily. The nitrates will likely show up about 2 weeks after you started. Keep monitoring, and watch for 0 ppm ammonia, 0 ppm nitrite and rising nitrates. 

7) Once the 0 ppm ammonia and nitrites shows up it may bounce around a little bit for a day or two. Be patient. Keep adding the ammonia, keep testing ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. 
When it seems done you can challenge the system by adding more than a regular dose of ammonia, and the bacteria should be able to remove the ammonia and nitrite by the next day. 
If you will not be adding fish right away continue to add the ammonia to keep the bacteria fed. 

8) When you are ready to add the fish, do at least one water change, and it may take a couple of them, to reduce the nitrate to safe levels (as low as possible, certainly below 10 ppm) I have seen nitrate approaching 200 ppm by the end of this fishless cycle in a non-planted tank. 

9) You can plant a tank that is being cycled this way at any point during the process. If you plant early, the plants will be well rooted, and better able to handle the disruption of the water change. 
Yes, the plants will use some of the ammonia and the nitrates. They are part of the nitrogen handling system, part of the biofilter, they are working for you. Some plants do not like high ammonia, though. If a certain plant dies, remove it, and only replace it after the cycle is done. 

10) The fishless cycle can also be used when you are still working out the details of lighting, plants and other things. If you change the filter, make sure you keep the old media for several weeks or a month. Most of the bacteria have been growing in this media (sponges, floss etc).


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

Cheers Diana.

looks like a trip to the hardware store is in order.

I have no idea what is in "Nutrafin Cycle" - it doesn't say on the bottle.


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## unissuh (Jun 5, 2006)

I'll say this straight up - I think Nutrafin Cycle is crap. I'm pretty sure it has been tested in proper scientific trials and does nothing good. This matches my personal experience - I have never had or heard of this particular product working in a properly controlled test. 

If you want to know whats in it, I quote from a scientific paper that went ahead to test this product (Nowak et al 2008, Canadian Journal of Microbiology):


> Two sequences were identified to the genus or species level: Sporocytophaga genus [...], Nitrosomonas europaea or Nitrosomonas sp. [...]. The remaining 3 sequences were identified to the order or genus level and were affiliated with the Acidobacterium genus [...], Leifsonia genus [...], and Clostridiales order [...]. Only Nitrosomonas species were listed by the manufacturer.





> Forty-two different bacterial isolates were obtained from Cycle through nonspecific plating. FAA identified 21 different isolates (Table 3), including 7 Bacillus species, 3 Mycobacterium species, 5 Pseudomonas species, Anthrobacter viscosus, Brevibacillus parabrevis/B. megaterium, Panibacillus macerans, Rhodococcus sp., Rhodobacter sphaeroides, Sphyngopyxis macrogoltabida, Variovax paradoxus, and Xanthobacter flavus. All of bacterial species identified in Cycle were not listed by the manufacturer. Bacteria such as Nitrosomonas species were not detected due to the unsuitable culturing conditions used. Mycobacterium fortuitum, Mycobacterium chelonea, Mycobacterium smegmatis, B. cereus, and Pseudomonas aeruginosa identified in Cycle are considered opportunistic pathogens.





> Fungal isolates were successfully cultured on RBC plates for all batches of Cycle. These isolates were identified as Rhizopus sp. and Aspergillus sp. The fungal and opportunistic pathogenic bacterial species identified in Cycle may have been contaminants based on the product’s label, claiming it contained only nonpathogenic bacteria. These species could have resulted from either impure product starter cultures, contamination in the manufacturing process, or nondefinitive taxonomic identifications.


So, whos eager to buy it based on that content list?


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

well the free ammonia does not bother me.. its the 10 and higher NH3 that u should be worried about.

again check the date on the botle
it does go bad after time
i've used it. it does work, i've been through mutliple bottles on multiple tanks
anyways, at that lvl of ammonia. your bacteria will eventually settle in and take care of it.. when it hits zero u will need to add fish food to keep it going and preferable a fish as well


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> well the free ammonia does not bother me.. its the 10 and higher NH3 that u should be worried about.
> 
> again check the date on the botle
> it does go bad after time
> ...


The *Free Ammonia* is the NH3, the *Total Ammonia* is the NH4.

NH3 was 0.26, dropped to 0.08 and is now back up to 0.1

The NH4 over the same period jumped from 10 to 40 and has now fallen down to 25.

I still haven't added anything else yet (barring the 4 plants and their hitch hikers)


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

must cycle products are BS. there are 2 that work: seachem stability and dr tims one and only. 
but you dont need them. you just need an innoculation and source of NH4+. for the bacterial innoculation, gravel or filter media from any tank that has already cycled works. often there will even be some bacteria in the water from your tap (just less, so it takes longer). for ammonium (the bacteria break down ammonium, not ammonia, but fortunately NH3 + H2O -> NH4+ + OH-), you can add cleaning ammonia (if its a PURE solution of water and ammonium), or feed the tank with high protein food (as the bacteria catabolize the amino acids, they will cleave off the amino group, making ammonium). 

basically, dont worry about the product, your tank should be able to cycle anyway. if you've added plants, then bacteria DEFINATELY road over on them. 
test total ammonia, and if it gets really high (>6 ppm), do a 50% WC, because too much ammonia will inhibit the bacteria (not really kill them, just hurt them enough to slow their growth). 
once your ammonia reaches 0, then you get to the annoying part, nitrite. nitrite usualy doesnt peak, it plateaus and takes a while to go down. once it does drop to 0, add fish, just slowly and in increments.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i apologize, i misread the chart. i thought the free ammonia said nh4

anyways if it dropped from 40 to 25 in a short time. bacteria is handling that

plants are not tha fast unless ur tank is supper full of plants, and they are very very hungry.. there would also be need for phosphates for them to utilize the ammonia as well. not that thy can't use it.. but to use that much there would need to be some po4

im under the impression that there is at least some sort of biological filtration going on


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> i apologize, i misread the chart. i thought the free ammonia said nh4
> 
> anyways if it dropped from 40 to 25 in a short time. bacteria is handling that
> 
> ...


np

The setup is as per my sig - 6gal tank with 4 clumps of plants on bogwood and lava rock (nothing planted in the substrate) and no ferts added at all.

Here is a pic of my tank so you can gauge how full it is.










The temperature is stable hovering between 24.2-25.0°C

Since adding the plants (and bogwood/rocks), the pH has dropped from 8.3 to 7.7 and is now back up to 7.9

Just as a side not, the *total* ammonia was level at 10 until I added the plants, then it shot up as the *free* ammonia was plummeting. That was something I didn't understand, if free ammonia is part of the total ammonia (ammonium) then in theory the total ammonia should also drop and not show an inverse graph to the free ammonia.


Based on the current figures of

*NH3:* 0.108 (and rising slowly)
*NH4+:* 24.88 (come down from 39.46, and has leveled off - waiting to see if it rises or falls again)
*pH:* 7.9 rising slowly

Do you think I should do a water change? The water has not been change since I put it in the tank almost *2 weeks* ago.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

the drop in NH3 was because your pH went down.
pH = -log[H+] (the [] means concentration)
so as pH goes down, your H+ concentration is higher.
NH3 + H+ <-> NH4+ (ammonia and hydrogen ions are in equilibrium with ammonium)
the LeChatlier principle states that when a system in equilibrium is disturbed, the equilibrium shifts in order to balance the change.
so when you add H+ to that system, equilibrium shifts towards less ammonia, and more ammonium in order to eat up the added hydrogen. 

your measurements are in ppm? if you have 25ppm total ammonia (ammonium and free ammonia), then i would do a partial water change, because at this point its messing with your pH, and that can inhibit bacterial growth (proteins have an optimal pH range for functioning). 
i never had ammonia go above 4ppm.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

i would change a small portion of water
if only to add carbonates which are used up during the nitrogen cycle. thus also resulting in ph change

higher ph's result in faster conversion of ammonia to nitrite to nitrate

plants are also loaded wih beneficial bacteria. a good possiblilty why the numbers dropped as well

u will want to add some sort of fertilizer soon. plants cannot live with water and nitrates only


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

OK guys, cheers for that. I'll do a partial water change and see what happens.

In the mean time - do snails poop a lot?










I;m trying to figure out if all the gray 2-3mm strands are snail poop, or just "sausages" of the gray/white powder like coating, that is on the pipes at the back , that have been formed as the snails have ploughed through it.

((I'm surprised how active the little buggers are))


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

Just done a 25% W/C.

Just one question - I know it is not an issue while there are no fish in the tank, but what do you guys do when you have fish in re W/C - esp in such a small tank - as my temp dropped to 21.3°C with the W/C.

I am considering leaving to stand to get it to at least room temp - but I have cats and they are likely to drink from it.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

depends on how much they eat. 
but if it were snail poop it would be brown or black. never saw grey/white poop from any animal.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

get a thermometer, and hold it under the tap. adjust the tap to within 2F/1C of your tank's temp.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

I presume you mean with hot water?

I have this thing with hot water, I won't use it as drinking water as it is stored in a tank and not directly off the mains. 

I suppose this is not so much of an issue for aquaria though. I will do that in the future.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

when i change 80% of my water weekly my temp drops about 4-5 degrees centigrade

fish don't seem to mind waiting for my heater to heat things up


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Following the fishless cycle above will grow enough bacteria to _fully_ stock a _non-planted_ tank. This method was developed with the idea of a Cichlid tank where you stock all the fish at the same time so they can sort out their territories with the least fighting. 

If you stock slowly, the bacteria die off to match the ammonia load. 

The following products have Nitrospira:
Dr. Tim's One and Only (He is the scientist who identified the proper cycle bacteria)
Tetra Safe Start. (These guys bought out Marineland's patent on Bio Spira for fresh water)
Bio Spira (This name is only used for the salt water version, now. It was originally used for a fresh water product also. Tetra bought the patent for that.)
Microbe Lift's Nite Out II
I have seen some good posts about Stability, but no side-by-side tests that are truly convincing to me. The info that I see at their web site makes it sound like not quite the right stuff.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

Having done the 25% W/C, NH3 is down to 0.084, NH4 is *up* to 34.5 and pH is back down to 7.75.

I'll see what its like in the morning.

And it only took 2 hours for my heater to bring the temp back up to 24°C - but then it is a 75W in a 6 Gal.


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

Check ur tap water for ammonia.. changing water should not increase ammonia


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## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Changing water can increase ammonia in the tank if your water supply has chloramines in it, as most water conditioners will break the chlorine/ammonia bond, neutralize the chlorine and leave the ammonia free in the tank. Normally the bio filter will take care of this ammonia quickly, but it's part of the reason many people use Prime water conditioner, as it renders the ammonia harmless.


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## sayurasem (Jun 17, 2011)

Is Nutrafin Cycle and Tetra Safestart the same?


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> Check ur tap water for ammonia.. changing water should not increase ammonia





wendyjo said:


> Changing water can increase ammonia in the tank if your water supply has chloramines in it, as most water conditioners will break the chlorine/ammonia bond, neutralize the chlorine and leave the ammonia free in the tank. Normally the bio filter will take care of this ammonia quickly, but it's part of the reason many people use Prime water conditioner, as it renders the ammonia harmless.


Well based on a previous comment, I think pH has more to do with my NH4 than anything else.

After the W/C, my NH3 dipped from 0.108 to 0.083, and has slowly risen back up to 0.107. 
My NH4+ rocketed up from 24.39 to 38.58, stayed there for a while and is now back down to 24.33.
at the same time my pH dropped from 7.9 to 7.7 and is now back up to 7.9.

The pH and NH4 changes seem to match each other


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## HD Blazingwolf (May 12, 2011)

STILL chaging water is adding ammonia. free ammonia is not very dangerous
it forms usually under ph below 6.5 and is no very lethal to fish

the nh4 is very dangerous and burns the gills of fish

the fact that changing water makes it go up means ur tap water has ammonia in it.. you will want to rectify that by purifying the water or adding chemicals that make it safe before adding


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> Is Nutrafin Cycle and Tetra Safestart the same?


No. Read the label. 

Nutrafin Cycle contains the bacteria that were thought for many years to help cycle a tank, but have been shown not to help much, if at all. 

Tetra Safe Start contains proven bacteria that are the real work-horses of the nitrogen cycle. 

If you need to buy a bacterial cycle product look for _Nitrospira_ species of bacteria. The other species do not live long in the tank, and do not do much while they are there. Waste of money.


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## xenxes (Dec 22, 2011)

1) follow instructions

2) SHAKE IT! then SHAKE IT SOME MORE!

3) patience



Nutrafin worked for me in each of my tanks, took about 1-2 weeks (not 3 days, which is the dosing requirement), even the brackish. Hold off on introducing fauna is key, then introduce slowly, inverts first, 1-2 fish at a time, tank may go through another mini cycle to produce more bacteria for the Ammonia/Nitrite increase.

Plant heavily and add floaters to suck up nitrates, combat algae, and reduce the need to do frequent water changes.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> STILL chaging water is adding ammonia. *free ammonia is not very dangerous*
> it forms usually under ph below 6.5 and is no very lethal to fish
> 
> *the nh4 is very dangerous* and burns the gills of fish
> ...


I'm sorry, but you have that the wrong way round - well at least according to the rest of the internet.

From Seachem


> Free ammonia is much more toxic than ionized ammonia.


From Seneye


> Free ammonia NH3 is a gas and the number 1 killer of fish. All fish excrete ammonia as a waste product and if it builds up in water it will become toxic. Aquarium filters are designed to convert or remove ammonia through biological activity or absorption. Rarely tested for in mature aquariums NH3 is viewed as a ‘new tank’ issue; the reality is any aquarium filters can stop functioning and NH3 is the first indicator that something has gone wrong. If you wouldn’t dream of keeping fish without a filter you should invest in making sure it’s working.
> Traditionally NH3 is very hard to measure and confused with NH4 total ammonia (ammonium). NH3 is free ammonia and it is often confused with NH4 total ammonia. Free ammonia forms part of Total ammonia but it is the only toxic part. Free ammonia forms an equilibrium with total ammonia based on pH and temperature. Most ‘ammonia’ test kits measure NH4 and expect you to work free ammonia out. Causes of NH3 raise chemicals destabilising the environment, filter stopping, adding more fish, water changes to a higher pH, insecticides etc.


And from dataguru.org an article with loads of charts (I'm looking through them now).


> Ammonia comes in two forms Ammonium (NH4+) which isn't toxic and ammonia (NH3) which is toxic. Both pH and water temperature affect how much of the toxic form of ammonia is present in your water. Higher pH and higher temp result in a higher proportion of the total ammonia being present in its toxic form (NH3). pH has the largest effect on ammonia toxicity. So if you have low pH and low temps, higher total ammonia can be present without it being as toxic as at higher pH and temps.
> 
> The tables below will allow you to determine the toxic ammonia levels in your tank. For tests done on salmonids, half the salmonids tested died with exposure to .03ppm NH3 ( 1 2 3 ). To my knowledge, we have no hard numbers for goldfish, but my fancy goldfish lived through around .03ppm for several weeks without adverse effects. NH3 levels in the following tables were calculated using the formula
> 
> *NH3=(Total Ammonia)/(1+10^[(0.0902-pH) + (2730/(273.2 + Temperature))])*.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> about 1-2 weeks (not 3 days, which is the dosing requirement), even the brackish. Hold off on introducing fauna is key, then introduce slowly, inverts first, 1-2 fish at a time, tank may go through another mini cycle to produce more bacteria for the Ammonia/Nitrite increase.


Sounds like a fish-in cycle to me.


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

xenxes said:


> 1) follow instructions
> 
> 2) SHAKE IT! then SHAKE IT SOME MORE!
> 
> ...


Tank has been up for 2 weeks now (started on 1/3/12)


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

HD Blazingwolf said:


> STILL chaging water is adding ammonia. free ammonia is not very dangerous
> it forms usually under ph below 6.5 and is no very lethal to fish
> 
> the nh4 is very dangerous and burns the gills of fish


that is misinformation
NH3 (free ammonia) is VERY dangerous. it is the cause, and only cause of ammonia poisoning. which leads to multisystem failure.
it is also a weak base, and can cause chemical burns in high concentrations, but to a fish living in the solution, ammonia poisoning is the much bigger concern. 

NH4+ (ammonium/ionized ammonia) is much LESS dangerous. it is an ion, and so the excretory system is very capable of excreting it, keeping it from building up in the tissues to toxic concentrations (much like it does with Na+, Ca+2, etc). it is, however, an acid, and can cause chemical burns on sensitive tissues. 

since both are corrosive, you can analyze which one is more corrosive by comparing the Ka of ammonium, to the Kb of ammonia
Ka = 5.6 x 10^(-10)
Kb = 1.8 x 10^(-5)
as you can see, the Kb (ammonia) value is larger by a factor of 100000, therefore it releases 100000 times more OH- then ammonium releases H+, and is thus FAR MORE corrosive, and it is responsible for the majority of chemical burns in aquaria IN ADDITION TO being the source of ammonia poisoning.

please dont post wrong information:icon_smil


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## CmdrBond (Jun 3, 2011)

Doing a bit more research on the relationship of NH4+, NH3, pH and °C.

I found a very good article here: 

Tropical Fish Forums > Aquarium Forums > TFF FAQ Topics > Tropical Chit Chat > % Of Toxic Ammonia Charts On the Ammonia-Ammonium Equilibrium

I took his charts and made it a little less scrollable.



> How to use the following tables
> 
> Know your pH and temperature.
> Look up the % toxic ammonia on the following charts for your temp and pH
> ...




```
[B]pH[/B] ||  [B]20°C [/B] |  [B]21°C[/B]  |  [B]22°C[/B]  |  [B]23°C[/B]  |  [B]24°C[/B]  |   [B]25°C[/B]  |   [B]26°C[/B]  |   [B]27°C[/B]  |   [B]28°C[/B]  |   [B]29°C[/B]  |   [B]30°C[/B]  |   [B]31°C[/B]  |   [B]32°C[/B]  |   [B]33°C[/B]  |   [B]34°C[/B]  |   [B]35°C[/B]
==============================================================================================================================================================
9.0 || 9.6835 | 9.7474 | 9.8113 | 9.8751 | 9.9388 | 10.0025 | 10.0661 | 10.1296 | 10.1931 | 10.2565 | 10.3198 | 10.3831 | 10.4463 | 10.5094 | 10.5724 | 10.6353
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.8 || 6.3363 | 6.3797 | 6.4231 | 6.4664 | 6.5097 |  6.5530 |  6.5963 |  6.6396 |  6.6828 |  6.7260 |  6.7692 |  6.8123 |  6.8554 |  6.8985 |  6.9416 |  6.9846
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.6 || 4.0937 | 4.1224 | 4.1511 | 4.1798 | 4.2085 |  4.2372 |  4.2658 |  4.2945 |  4.3232 |  4.3518 |  4.3805 |  4.4091 |  4.4378 |  4.4664 |  4.4950 |  4.5236
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.4 || 2.6225 | 2.6412 | 2.6599 | 2.6786 | 2.6973 |  2.7159 |  2.7346 |  2.7533 |  2.7720 |  2.7906 |  2.8093 |  2.8280 |  2.8467 |  2.8653 |  2.8840 |  2.9026
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.2 || 1.6709 | 1.6829 | 1.6949 | 1.7069 | 1.7190 |  1.7310 |  1.7430 |  1.7550 |  1.7671 |  1.7791 |  1.7911 |  1.8032 |  1.8152 |  1.8272 |  1.8392 |  1.8513
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8.0 || 1.0608 | 1.0685 | 1.0762 | 1.0838 | 1.0915 |  1.0992 |  1.1069 |  1.1146 |  1.1223 |  1.1300 |  1.1376 |  1.1453 |  1.1530 |  1.1607 |  1.1684 |  1.1761
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.8 || 0.6719 | 0.6768 | 0.6817 | 0.6866 | 0.6915 |  0.6964 |  0.7013 |  0.7062 |  0.7110 |  0.7159 |  0.7208 |  0.7257 |  0.7306 |  0.7355 |  0.7404 |  0.7453
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.6 || 0.4250 | 0.4281 | 0.4312 | 0.4343 | 0.4374 |  0.4405 |  0.4436 |  0.4467 |  0.4498 |  0.4529 |  0.4560 |  0.4591 |  0.4622 |  0.4653 |  0.4684 |  0.4716
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.4 || 0.2686 | 0.2706 | 0.2725 | 0.2745 | 0.2764 |  0.2784 |  0.2804 |  0.2823 |  0.2843 |  0.2863 |  0.2882 |  0.2902 |  0.2922 |  0.2941 |  0.2961 |  0.2980
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.2 || 0.1696 | 0.1709 | 0.1721 | 0.1734 | 0.1746 |  0.1758 |  0.1771 |  0.1783 |  0.1796 |  0.1808 |  0.1820 |  0.1833 |  0.1845 |  0.1858 |  0.1870 |  0.1883
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7.0 || 0.1071 | 0.1079 | 0.1087 | 0.1095 | 0.1102 |  0.1110 |  0.1118 |  0.1126 |  0.1134 |  0.1142 |  0.1149 |  0.1157 |  0.1165 |  0.1173 |  0.1181 |  0.1189
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.8 || 0.0676 | 0.0681 | 0.0686 | 0.0691 | 0.0696 |  0.0701 |  0.0706 |  0.0711 |  0.0716 |  0.0721 |  0.0726 |  0.0730 |  0.0735 |  0.0740 |  0.0745 |  0.0750
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.6 || 0.0427 | 0.0430 | 0.0433 | 0.0436 | 0.0439 |  0.0442 |  0.0445 |  0.0449 |  0.0452 |  0.0455 |  0.0458 |  0.0461 |  0.0464 |  0.0467 |  0.0470 |  0.0474
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.4 || 0.0269 | 0.0271 | 0.0273 | 0.0275 | 0.0277 |  0.0279 |  0.0281 |  0.0283 |  0.0285 |  0.0287 |  0.0289 |  0.0291 |  0.0293 |  0.0295 |  0.0297 |  0.0299
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.2 || 0.0170 | 0.0171 | 0.0172 | 0.0174 | 0.0175 |  0.0176 |  0.0177 |  0.0179 |  0.0180 |  0.0181 |  0.0182 |  0.0184 |  0.0185 |  0.0186 |  0.0187 |  0.0189
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.0 || 0.0107 | 0.0108 | 0.0109 | 0.0110 | 0.0110 |  0.0111 |  0.0112 |  0.0113 |  0.0113 |  0.0114 |  0.0115 |  0.0116 |  0.0117 |  0.0117 |  0.0118 |  0.0119
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5.0 || 0.0011 | 0.0011 | 0.0011 | 0.0011 | 0.0011 |  0.0011 |  0.0011 |  0.0011 |  0.0011 |  0.0011 |  0.0012 |  0.0012 |  0.0012 |  0.0012 |  0.0012 |  0.0012
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.0 || 0.0001 | 0.0001 | 0.0001 | 0.0001 | 0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001 |  0.0001
```

Based on that chart and my temp (25°C) and pH (7.9) the % of toxic ammonia should be 1.0915% at pH 8.0 or 0.6915, and a total ammonia reading of 23.29, my free ammonia reading should be 

either 

23.29 × ( 1.0915 ÷ 100 ) = 0.254

or

23.29 × ( 0.6915 ÷ 100 ) = 0.161

both of which are higher than my reading of 0.107


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

Why don't you go ahead and buy a better bacterial additive if this one isn't working for you? Learning how all this works is fun, but no amount of testing (or puzzling over the test results) will change the fact that your tank isn't cycled.


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## thechibi (Jan 20, 2012)

I like seachem stability or that microbe lift stuff, personally.


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## @[email protected] (Oct 24, 2007)

honestly, it DOESNT MATTER. none of this.
you added plants. these plants had their roots in the substrate, and brought in an inoculation of substrate bacteria (which is where the nitritifying bacteria live). you have all the bacteria you need, all that you need is time for them to grow.
and if you dont have fish, who cares whats more toxic and how much of it you have? 
just wait til everything is 0ppm.
like with every other bacterial culture, you need a growth medium and an innoculation. you have both. just hurry up and wait.


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## unissuh (Jun 5, 2006)

I'm wading through all the information in the thread and I can't help thinking that at the rate this is going, your tank is never going to cycle. I am very familiar with all this chemistry and so on, but right now you need to go back to basics.

The main problem I see is that if your total ammonia reading is correct (20+ ppm??), that is far too high to cycle a tank and I think you are going to be sitting around for a very long time. It's pretty well accepted that your typical aquarium biofilters won't handle more than about 6-8 ppm ammonia before the microbes die off from ammonia poisoning (and weaker plants start melting) leaving you with an uncycled tank. 

I find this procedure will fix 99% of problems with cycles and I suggest you just do this:
1) Do a 90-100% water change using a dechlorinator, preferably one that does chloramines properly
2) Dose a tablespoon of sodium bicarbonate (repeat if cycle stalls again)
3) Keep up your ammonia source, target 4-5 ppm.

NB: I prefer using a prawn or dead fish for generating ammonia rather than dosing pure ammonia. This because it also adds rotting material to your aquarium, which will help generate heterotrophic bacteria (i.e. those that break down organics into ammonia) & also releases elements etc that bacteria can use for growth. Much less fiddling too, it will release ammonia at about the right rate by itself.


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## TheWonderfulWub (Jan 11, 2012)

The only issue I have with bottled bacterial cultures (and it's a big issue) is that 99% of the time they're treated like dry goods like filters and heaters. What I mean by that is that they're left in unheated/uncooled warehouses, trucks, distribution centers, etc. For all you know, you're buying a bottle full of dead bacteria, which can't do anything but hurt your tank.


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## Fishly (Jan 8, 2010)

@[email protected] said:


> honestly, it DOESNT MATTER. none of this.
> you added plants. these plants had their roots in the substrate, and brought in an inoculation of substrate bacteria (which is where the nitritifying bacteria live). you have all the bacteria you need, all that you need is time for them to grow.
> and if you dont have fish, who cares whats more toxic and how much of it you have?
> just wait til everything is 0ppm.
> like with every other bacterial culture, you need a growth medium and an innoculation. you have both. just hurry up and wait.


The plants might have been carrying beneficial bacteria on them, unless they have been treated with something like Potassium permanganate or bleach to kill snails/diseases. But even if they weren't, why would the bacteria grow on the plants that are competing with it for ammonia?

The point of adding bacteria from a bottle is not to add the bacteria to the tank, it's to add *a lot* of the bacteria to the tank, so it cycles faster. I've used Stability several times, and the tanks were always cycled within a week. If I had just added fish food to the tank and waited for nitrate, it could have taken up to two months.


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