# Aquatic Soil



## waterfaller1 (Jul 5, 2006)

I used generic peat & compost soil under gravel. I believe you want soil with no vermiculite or perlite. Look up Diana Walstad method.


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Really? I read that article and she did use vermiculite mixed with her garden soil. What would be the drawbacks of using perlite?


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## marrow (Feb 4, 2007)

The biggest problem with perlite is that it floats almost as well as styrofoam. I grew up on a rare plants nursery and have handled truckloads of perlite. A huge bag weighs very little. It does not absorb water like vermiculite and is used to aerate the soil improving drainage etc. ( I wouldnt use vermiculite in a tank either) By the end of a season, containerized plants that had been watered for a few months inevitably had a nice layer of perlite on top that had been liberated by watering the pots. Some nurseries use styrofoam pellets instead of perlite as a more affordable alternative. I cannot imagine using it in an aquarium. My understanding is that it is heat expanded sand (think popcorn). If anyone has put this in an aquarium I would be very amused to hear the results.


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

What would you recommend for a substrate under Eco-Complete to save on $$?

It's winter here in Canada and although my garden plants do very well here, I don't know if I'd use it in my aquarium. 

Waterfaller mentioned compost and I apologize, it wasn't Diana Walstad's article I read that in. Jim Kelly stated that you shouldn't use compost:

"Don't use bagged potting soil, peat moss, or compost (They will decay under water and prevent good root growth. See the recent article by Diane Walstad in the Sept. 1994 issue of TAG. "

Would you agree? If compost is acceptable then it wouldn't be a problem to get!


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Another thing you need to understand is you need to do certain things correctly in this hobby or you will regret it in the long run. This hobby of ours isn't cheap and if its too expensive to do things correctly you probably should wonder why you're doing a planted 91 gallon:icon_roll (Granted I understand wanting to go cheaper on the substrate, and have made this mistake twice before, regretting it thoroughly both times...)

You could do a couple things to save some on substrate though, with the above being said.

Inert non-specialized substrates are cheaper, but will require good fertilization to keep plants nice and healthy. Some common ones are sand, and pea sized grave. Soilmaster select is a newer option people have tried with good results as you can get a 50lb bag for around $20-$30. 

But if you want to go with a "natural planted aquarium" You need to get Diana Walstand's book. I got it for Christmas and so far its great. I would recommend reading that a few times before playing with dirt in the aquarium 

Lastly, If you want to go with a planted substrate they are worth it. The initial price is hefty in the beginning but you won't regret it overall. If you're going to want to try and stretch them with mixing In my opinion you should just go with another option because they're best used by themselves.

For my 55g I mixed gravel and Florabase, needless to say I'll be ordering some ADA AS in the coming months to replace the substrate in my tank:icon_roll . 

-Andrew

Edit: Get it now, on sale!:thumbsup: 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/09...TF8&coliid=I32YXO2CM86TQR&colid=135H748T7HX9T


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Fish Newb: Harsh man. We live in Canada where almost everything is more expensive. One 20lb bag of Eco-Complete is CAD$34.99! At bigalsonline.com, it's only US$17.99. Even if I were to purchase it from bigalsonline, there would be the shipping costs, taxes and huge handling fees from Fedex of over CAD$50.00.

We have ordered 4 bags of Eco-Complete from our local BAs which totals 139.96 + 6% GST + 7% PST. It's not a matter of money really, it's a matter of feeling like I'm being ripped off! 

So, I'll have 80lbs of Eco-Complete for a 91 gallon tank. Caribsea recommends 2lbs per gallon = 182lbs!

BTW, the reason why my husband purchased this tank is because it was on sale and the floor model so we saved about $400.00.

I've looked around for Soilmaster here in Canada and haven't been able to find it yet. *sigh*

At least we have health care 




Fish Newb said:


> Another thing you need to understand is you need to do certain things correctly in this hobby or you will regret it in the long run. This hobby of ours isn't cheap and if its too expensive to do things correctly you probably should wonder why you're doing a planted 91 gallon:icon_roll (Granted I understand wanting to go cheaper on the substrate, and have made this mistake twice before, regretting it thoroughly both times...)
> 
> You could do a couple things to save some on substrate though, with the above being said.
> 
> ...


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## tazcrash69 (Sep 27, 2005)

Tabatha, 
Soilmaster select is a product of oil-dri. Here is a link: http://www.oildri.com/proschoice/products.html

Not sure who\if they have distributors in Canada, but I hope that helps you get a start.

But just a quick note: I'm not a fan of mixed substrates. if you move things around, they mix and don't always look good. (sorry I know it hurts to pay that much for "aquarium dirt").


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Tazcrash, I've emailed them or a retailer in the Toronto area, hopefully we'll hear from them soon!

Cheers,


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

tazcrash69 said:


> Tabatha,
> Soilmaster select is a product of oil-dri. Here is a link: http://www.oildri.com/proschoice/products.html
> 
> Not sure who\if they have distributors in Canada, but I hope that helps you get a start.
> ...


I live in WInnipeg, Manitoba Canada and the prices are indeed outrageous for some of these substrates. 

You may want to check out aquariumplants.com own substrate which many claim is basically repackaged Soil Master Select and much cheaper than an equivalent amount of fluorite or eco-complete. They also have eco-complete and fluorite and I have yet to find cheaper prices locally than what they sell it for even with shipping. 

I you want to cut down costs and use fluorite. You can always mix it with Pool Filter Sand(which is dirt cheap from any local Pool Supply Store). Many people do this to save costs and have no issues with plant growth.


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks for the tip Homer but I checked and shipping is almost as expensive as the substrate itself ($39.49 + tax). I've contacted PlantProducts (plantprod.com) and am waiting to hear from them as well as Oil-dri.


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

*Composts at Rona...*

What would be your opinion of these products?

1) Seaweed compost: http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...diaTM/Biomax/ShrimpCompost/fShrimpCompost.htm

2 )Shrimp compost:
http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...diaTM/Biomax/ShrimpCompost/fShrimpCompost.htm

Unfortunately, both contain limestone.

3 )Black Earth:
http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...diaTM/Biomax/ShrimpCompost/fShrimpCompost.htm

No limestone! Contains decomposed black peat humus and ash -- sound promising???


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

BTW, I was also directed to Turface MVP which is composed of quartz and clay:
http://www.turface.com/sports_fields/product.cfm?category=1&product=trf_mvp


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Tabatha said:


> Fish Newb: Harsh man. We live in Canada where almost everything is more expensive. One 20lb bag of Eco-Complete is CAD$34.99! At bigalsonline.com, it's only US$17.99. Even if I were to purchase it from bigalsonline, there would be the shipping costs, taxes and huge handling fees from Fedex of over CAD$50.00.
> 
> 
> At least we have health care


Well I know its harsh sorry but I don't want people like you making the same mistakes and regretting them like I did for two years now:icon_roll 

Maybe if you offer to pay USD you can get a discount :hihi:

At least you have health care... But IMO I hope that doesn't happen here... (Lets not get off topic though :hihi: )

-Andrew


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Thanks Andrew, I appreciate your comment  I have been following your adventures and look forward to updates!

The Canadian dollar is pretty much on par with the American dollar so offering to pay in US dollars wouldn't make much difference. It's the shipping that really kills and the added fees. Fair trade ain't so fair but I digress...

Cheers,


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Tabatha said:


> What would be your opinion of these products?
> 
> 1) Seaweed compost: http://www.premierhort.com/eProMix/...diaTM/Biomax/ShrimpCompost/fShrimpCompost.htm
> 
> ...


These may wreak havoc with your ammonia levels which could endanger fish health and contribute to algae blooms. If you really want to mess with something like top soil in a tank, as another poster suggested, look into Diana Walstead's Natural Planted tank concept. You can read more about this here and get a good idea of how to do such a setup and what people's experiences are. This saves you from having to buy the book, although the book is an excellent resource to have.
http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/el-natural/


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## A Hill (Jul 25, 2005)

Tabatha said:


> Thanks Andrew, I appreciate your comment  I have been following your adventures and look forward to updates!
> 
> The Canadian dollar is pretty much on par with the American dollar so offering to pay in US dollars wouldn't make much difference. It's the shipping that really kills and the added fees. Fair trade ain't so fair but I digress...
> 
> Cheers,


If you ever need my comments just let me know lol I'll keep them somewhat updated for you, lack of pictures is never good but with a lack of good photography equipment... :frown: 

I wanted to make sure you understood why I was harsh, it was more me kicking myself and letting you know you'll do the same if you cheap out on something thats as important as substrate.

Last I checked, and this was at least a couple months ago it was something like 1 usd = 1.3 CD. The US dollar has been falling so It wouldn't surprise me if they are about even again:icon_neut 

Shipping as we all seem to know around here, is an expensive pita. :hihi:

-Andrew

Edit: 

Buy Diana's book, or see if your library has it. Its Wonderful, a bit over my head at some points like the allellopathy (spelling/!?!?!?) but very interesting information!


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

*The Osaka is Here!*

My husband picked up the Osaka with his buddy yesterday, YIPEEE!

After much research, we've decided to use vermiculite and peat under the Eco-complete, it should work very well according to the numerous articles I've read.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Tabatha said:


> My husband picked up the Osaka with his buddy yesterday, YIPEEE!
> 
> After much research, we've decided to use vermiculite and peat under the Eco-complete, it should work very well according to the numerous articles I've read.



If you don't mind, could you please post the links to some of those articles. Inquiring minds want to know. Without having tried that myself, I am not saying that it cannot work, but I am just curious as to the Science behind it. Are the benefits just based on the fact that Vermiculite as a very high CEC. If that is the only reason, then Schultz Aquatic Soil(which you can get dirt cheap) has equally high CEC but will not break down like Verimiculite when submerged for long periods of time in water, so would it not make more sense to use that. 

Hopefully, Tom Barr can chime in on this. I know he recommends some peat and mulm as standard things to underlay under substrates, but I would be curious to his position on underlaying vermiculite under substrates such as Eco-Complete.

The only article that I came across about using vermiculite in a tank is Jim Kelly's article but in this article he suggests mixing soil and vermiculite and overlaying that with 1.5 inch #3 sandblasting grit/sand.
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html


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## fish dork (Jan 13, 2008)

I've had peat/sand mixed under gravel for going on 8 months now with no problems and very good root and plant growth. I can't say how this substrate combo will last long term, but so far so good!


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

fish dork said:


> I've had peat/sand mixed under gravel for going on 8 months now with no problems and very good root and plant growth. I can't say how this substrate combo will last long term, but so far so good!


Have you tried vermiculite and sand or vermiculite and peat underlayer?


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Just Google "vermiculite in aquariums" and you'll get a plethora of links to great information:

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/budget.html
Jim Kelly, Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California

http://www.aquabotanic.com/sfintro.htm
 By Robert Paul H

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9506/msg00079.html
*Aquatic-Plants at actwin_com *

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/kelly-intro.html
Jim Kelly (The Krib)

http://www.aqua-fish.net/show.php?h=aquariumsubstrate

http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

http://aqualandpetsplus.com/Plant, Vermiculite.htm


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Tabatha said:


> Just Google "vermiculite in aquariums" and you'll get a plethora of links to great information:
> 
> http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/budget.html
> Jim Kelly, Dept. of Physics, Univ. of California
> ...


Very interesting... Thank you.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

First, one very important point is how much lighting are you planning to use on this tank!?? There are two very different 'schools' or methodologies on running a planted tank.

If you're using high light and CO2 injection I would never use very much vermiculite or peat. Especially not a significant percentage. When it is recommended the amount is only a dusting - less that 1/16th of an inch. This is to help act as mulm would in an established system.

Also, because of the rapid growth of plants in a high light-high tech set up, any layered substrate will very quickly get mixed together due to all the replanting that will be needed! With a cheaper inert substrate this is often just a very disappointing eye-sore. However, with something that has potential to float, cloud the water column, alter your water chemistry or release harmful ammonia (compost esp.) it could be disasterous.

Please consider this carefully! Trust me, I know! I went budget conscious on my 75g when I first got into planted tanks. I layered 1/2 pea gravel with 1/2 Flourite. After I began to inject CO2 the limestone contaminate in the pea gravel started dissolving. My KH rocketed and my water was milky. I had to totally empty the tank. The two substrates had already mixed enough that I could not separate the Flourite and trashed those four bags along with the pea gravel.:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/general-planted-tank-discussion/28843-oh-no-no-kh-rising-w.html

However, the other method is low light: around 1 wpg; low light plants; no CO2 injection - so slow plant growth; and little need for fertilization. Because of these conditions you'll have minimal pruning, replanting and moving of your plants. This is the system which is touted by Diana Walstead in her book. It is a bottom layer of soil to provide the plant's nutrients capped with inert gravel to keep it from entering the water column. 

*Two completely different ball games.*


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

*Vermiculite & CO2*

Thanks for that tidbit.

I Googled vermiculite in aquariums and co2, here's what I found:

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9509/msg00074.html


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

The planted aquarium hobby is very much still evolving. Using posts from 1995 (12years old) is very much dubious and out of date!!!! A web entry which also mentions heating cables and UGF - both very much out of vogue, casts serious doubt for most any other recommendations contained.

Not to mention that in the last paragraph Steve does state that Frank is replacing this substrate:


> "Frank also said he wasn't using CO2 on this tank and was
> unhappy with the growth *but I don't think he was happy with the
> substrate entirely because he's replacing it, eh*?"



Please, don't even get us started with a post that mentions limiting phosphate in a planted tank. Almost sure fired for luringTom Barr to start chiming in!




Tabatha said:


> I Googled vermiculite in aquariums and co2, here's what I found:
> 
> http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9509/msg00074.html


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

How about this one last modified 5/3/2006?

http://home.infinet.net/teban/substrat.htm

What are your views on peat moss?


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## htn86 (Sep 30, 2007)

Have you thought about trying out Schultz Aquatic Soil? Try your local commercial hardware store and ask around in the garden department. These are pretty light stuffs, but I read somewhere that this substrate is really good and I'm having some good results myself growing HC with these stuffs.


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

We're off to Home Depot tonight, I'll have a look for it. I went to the local nursery earlier this week and a guy in their pond department said he tried it and it clouded his tank. Mind you, it was probably a different brand.

After all this, my husband wants to use gravel. Go figure!


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

Most of those sources are hopelessly outdated. With the advent of commercial planted tank substrates like Flourite, Eco-Complete and AquaSoil, things have changed and to a big extend become easier.

The links you posted are good, but they go back a few years when aquarium light levels were much lower, and water column fertilization pretty much unthinkable.

Substrates are important, but there isn't really much reason to mess with Vermiculite and Earthworm castings and such. Like Rod mentioned, first you need to decide if you want a "High-tech" setup with plenty light, CO2 and regular fertilizer dosing ("lush planted jungle") or if you want "Low-tech" with slower growth, less light, and reduced fertilizing. Then you need to look at your budget and consider different substrate options.

I'd suggest to do a lot of reading on this and other planted tank boards rather than googling "vermiculite" to get a better idea of what the current stand is. Read more before you rush out and buy gravel. 

Back to your question... It is generally recommended to do a very fine bottom layer of peat when you start up a tank, but it is difficult to judge the benefit. Some ppl do, some don't, and others, like myself, use a thicker layer of it. I like to have a bit of organic matter underneath the top layer.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

I am testing Schultz Aquatic soil in a 10 gallon planted and it is the main substrate in my 40 gallon. The clouding issue was minimal and 90% less than what I saw with Fluorite that I rinsed the c*ap out of. The only problem that I found with it is that it did not grow plants like ludwiga Repens, rotala indica, and cryptocornes well(even where I stuck fluorish root fert tab in the gravel with the cryptocorne). In my experience it grows plants as well as Fluorite but not as well as Seachem Onyx Sand and ADA Aquasoil II.

Here is a snapshot of plants growing in my 40 gallon with Schultz Aquatic Soil. The tank is far from perfect as it is still recovering from some stupid mistakes that I made when I set it up, which had nothing to do with the substrate. By the way the reason that the Hygorphilia Polysperma look so pathetic has nothing to do with a deficiency or substrate. The stupid Kribensis Cichild that I have in the tank keeps mutilating the Hygrophilia Polysperma leaves before they can fully grow out. 

The tank before a trim:









The tank after a trim:


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Wasserpest said:


> Most of those sources are hopelessly outdated. With the advent of commercial planted tank substrates like Flourite, Eco-Complete and AquaSoil, things have changed and to a big extend become easier.


If the substrates weren't so damn expensive and over-priced in Canada, I wouldn't have a problem using them 100% in this tank.



Wasserpest said:


> Substrates are important, but there isn't really much reason to mess with Vermiculite and Earthworm castings and such. Like Rod mentioned, first you need to decide if you want a "High-tech" setup with plenty light, CO2 and regular fertilizer dosing ("lush planted jungle") or if you want "Low-tech" with slower growth, less light, and reduced fertilizing. Then you need to look at your budget and consider different substrate options.


Very true and thank you for reminding me of that. 



Wasserpest said:


> Back to your question... It is generally recommended to do a very fine bottom layer of peat when you start up a tank, but it is difficult to judge the benefit. Some ppl do, some don't, and others, like myself, use a thicker layer of it. I like to have a bit of organic matter underneath the top layer.


I think I'll do that as well.


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## htn86 (Sep 30, 2007)

Why don't you try this site http://www.aquariumplants.com/Eco_Complete_Aquarium_Substrate_p/eco.htm

Look at the last item on the list
http://www.aquariumplants.com/Eco_Complete_Aquarium_Substrate_p/eco.htm


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

We decided to go with a small natural gravel from Menagerie, 40lbs in conjunction with 100lbs of Eco-complete. No vermiculite and no peat. Planted yesterday and although it took all day, I found it surprisingly east to plant hairgrass! I thought that would be a pain in the a**.

Red Sea CO2 Pro System arrives next week from petsandponds.com, can't wait!


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## Tabatha (Jan 3, 2008)

Ooooh, so lush and green, yummy! How many tanks do you have on the go?



Homer_Simpson said:


> <snip>
> 
> Here is a snapshot of plants growing in my 40 gallon with Schultz Aquatic Soil. The tank is far from perfect as it is still recovering from some stupid mistakes that I made when I set it up, which had nothing to do with the substrate. By the way the reason that the Hygorphilia Polysperma look so pathetic has nothing to do with a deficiency or substrate. The stupid Kribensis Cichild that I have in the tank keeps mutilating the Hygrophilia Polysperma leaves before they can fully grow out. <snip>


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

Tabatha said:


> Ooooh, so lush and green, yummy! How many tanks do you have on the go?


Lol, too many  Actually, one at work(3 gallon nano - low light low tech Tom Barr type), and 5 at home. 3 high tech tanks(40 gallon, 10 gallon, and 15 gallon high), 5 gallon low light low tech(Tom Barr type low tech), and 5 gallon Marineland hex "hybrid" low tech, low light, Natural Planted Tank. With the exception of the 40 gallon, the rest are experimental/test tanks. I am still trying to figure out what I like the best and have the best success with. If I had more room in my home, I would probably set up even more tanks. 

Lol, I really need Psychiatric help for this obsession  With the amount of $$$ that I am spending on this hobby, it won't be long before I end up in the poor house.


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## ben1020123 (Feb 20, 2008)

Tabatha said:


> Has anyone tried using aquatic soil in combination with vermiculite under flourite or eco-complete? We're planting a 91 gallon tank and it's a tad expensive to use all eco-complete!


where did u get the aquatic soil and how much would you need for a 25 gallon tank?


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

Check out Home Depot, Lowes, any place that carries pond supplies. Schultz Aquatic Soil. You can order it online too (but would likely pay so much in shipping fees that picking up Eco or Flourite from an LFS would end up the same or cheaper...)


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## Growerguy (Feb 12, 2008)

yeah vermiculite and perlite are mainly put in soil to allow for the dirt to air out a bit in potted plants. To keep them from moulding or staying constantly wet.


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## firefish (Apr 10, 2008)

well if u guys are looking for ada substrate to be shipped to canada, the ada distrubutor for canada does it for cheap! (well..cheaper than what the states offered me!)

the contact info is: [email protected]


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