# Dwarf Sag vs. Micro Sword



## ddaquaria (Jan 19, 2003)

I think the fastest growing plant I have had is sag. Literally like a weed on steroids. I have the red form of microsword, and it took about 2 weeks before it also began to spread like a weed. Due to the thickness of the sag, it looked like it spread faster, but that could (possibly) not be the case.


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## bellisb925 (Jul 3, 2004)

I have 130W over my 50 and I couldn't grow Micro-sword for the life of me. Some people say they can do it in that little of light, but not I. Dwarf sag on the othe hand, I had a hard time controlling its fast growth. I would start with the Sag and if you like that, but think it gets to big, try some pygmy chain sword. It is similar to Dwarf Sag, but a bit smaller.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Have the opposite problem. Dwarf sag won't grow for me, but other grasses do great for some reason (hairgrass, dwarf hairgrass, Lilaeopsis novae zelandiae). I still have the same dwarf sag that I started with, but no growth or runners from it at all.


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## bellisb925 (Jul 3, 2004)

Ibn, that is like complaining about getting a 99 out of 100 on a test  . I wish I had your success.


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

Thanks, but I've never grown a carpet of dwarf sag before and it would be something different. It's growing at the same rate as the lone Crypt. parva that's in there...basically, not going anywhere.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

my dwarf sag is also slow going, but only a few weeks since planted


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

My Sags need to STOP ! jeezus them things are down right uncontrolable...I have very soft water here in CT... could that be the factor here ?


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

buck

are yous getting tall or just sending out lots of runners. Once mine takes off, I hope for runners with lots of carpet plants rather than height.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Its strange, I have some that are close to 6' tall but most are in the 2" range with runners galore. It took them close to two weeks and I was kinda scratchin my head as to why they were not spreading or even growing and then all of a sudden they took off. 
Now they are close to irritatingly fast growing. :icon_frow


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I have the red form of microsword


Red microsword? I have never seen that! I would love a photo. Are you sure you don't have Chain sword (Echinodorus tenellus)?

My dwarf sags languished for a while, and then suddenly took off. I was surprised, because they always seem to do well.

Mike


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## BSS (Sep 24, 2004)

Geez, Buck. Those sound like dwarf sags I used to have. Then again, mine didn't quite hit 6 *feet* :icon_bigg ! When I first put in sags, they took a while to take hold. But once they did, they really took off and started hiding most everything I considered to be a mid-ground plant. Not sure why mine wouldn't stay very low. FWIW, my KH~7 and GH~12.

Brian.


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## ddaquaria (Jan 19, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Red microsword? I have never seen that! I would love a photo. Are you sure you don't have Chain sword (Echinodorus tenellus)?


The actual name is Echinodorus microtenellus var red. When the conditions are right the blades are red to pink otherwise green. Maybe I misread his question. I was assuming micro tenellus not lilieopsis(sp?).


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> Echinodorus microtenellus var red


I have heard of the Echinodorus tenellus that has a red color, but I have never heard of a Echinodorus microtenellus v. red. or a Echinodorus microtenellus. If you have a link to this plant, please post it for me! i searched, but couldn't find one

Don't mean to get on a rant, but it does seem like _we all _ have been creating some new plant varieties lately! I just want us to keep things by the book and let the botanists name new plants and varieties.  

Mike


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## ddaquaria (Jan 19, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> I have heard of the Echinodorus tenellus that has a red color, but I have never heard of a Echinodorus microtenellus v. red. or a Echinodorus microtenellus. If you have a link to this plant, please post it for me! i searched, but couldn't find one


The appropriate name that I found is "micro" leaf tenellus (Spring 2000 Planted Aquaria magazine. It is an article written by Neil Frank on Chain Sword Plants: History and Nomenclatural Perspectives. It is actuall one of my favorite articles. I do not want to call it tenellus since people call every chain sword that they see tenellus. It also appears to be called Echinodorus tenellus, micro leaf variety. I added the red, since I have also seen this plant in green (never turning red).


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

ddaquaria said:


> I added the red, since I have also seen this plant in green (never turning red).


 Never turning red in "your" tank ?
Water qualities, ferts, lighting... all factors on plant coloring in a tank, you know that dd !! 
... just because you are getting some hints of red and you have seen some all green, does not make yours a _var. red_
For example, I have seen Hygro polysperma look like the "_sunset v._" , much more then the _"sunset v."_ itself look like in someone elses tank. :wink:
Plant coloring depends on conditions , as much as it depends on variety.


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## pufferfreak (Oct 19, 2003)

yes my H. polysperma is just the regular var. but I thought it was the sunset var. since it was so pink! I would like to see a picture of this red microsword


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## ddaquaria (Jan 19, 2003)

Buck said:


> Never turning red in "your" tank ?
> Water qualities, ferts, lighting... all factors on plant coloring in a tank, you know that dd !!
> ... just because you are getting some hints of red and you have seen some all green, does not make yours a _var. red_
> For example, I have seen Hygro polysperma look like the "_sunset v._" , much more then the _"sunset v."_ itself look like in someone elses tank. :wink:
> Plant coloring depends on conditions , as much as it depends on variety.


Actually the entire leaf would be red. Not just hints. It is the same plant that Amano uses in the foreground on several of his tanks. I have talked to others that thought they bought the red form, but it never turned red. Once they got their hands on the red form and placed it in the same tank, you could see the differences. I agree that water quality and other factors can manipulate color, but I don't think that is the case for this plant. Would you prefer that I call it Echino. tenellus var microleaf like majority of the articles that I have read?


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

Now you really got my curiousity up... 
I know what Mikes and my next question will be..."Care to part with a plant or two to try...? :hihi: 
I would love to see a photo actually...any links or maybe photos of yours ?


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

> I do not want to call it tenellus since people call every chain sword that they see tenellus. It also appears to be called Echinodorus tenellus, micro leaf variety. I added the red, since I have also seen this plant in green (never turning red).


Common names are one thing, but scientific are another. E. tenellus and E. microtenellus give me the impression of two different plants, when in fact they are the same one. Add in the "Red" variety and my head is swimming!  

I will agree common names can be confusing. I have always thought of "microswords" as Lilaeopsis and "Chain or Pygmy Chain" as E. tennelus. 


Mike


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## ddaquaria (Jan 19, 2003)

Momotaro said:


> Common names are one thing, but scientific are another. E. tenellus and E. microtenellus give me the impression of two different plants, when in fact they are the same one.


I completely disagree with this statement. I again recommend the article in Planted Aquaria Spring 200 pg 33 as well as Kassellman pg 276 and The Aquarium Plant Handbook pg 87 stating that there are different kinds of tenellus - which are not the same plants.

Sorry montifone for hijacking your thread. I confused the microsword that you were speaking of with tenellus... I blame myself.


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## Magnus (Jul 12, 2003)

So far, in my knowledge, I've seen 3 varieties of E. tenellus. The regular, green one we all know and love is E. tenellus var. 'narrow leaf', the one ddaquaria is talking about is E. tenellus var. 'micro leaf' (this plant actually stays smaller than the former). There's also the original broad leafed E. tenellus, but I've only seen those in prints. Of course, I could be wrong, which is why I don't post much. :icon_conf 
Also, if you have the "red" variety and are interested in trading, let me know. 
Pics of E. tenellus var. 'micro leaf' can be seen here (taken by Marcus)
http://www.fish-forums.com/board/album_cat.php?cat_id=7


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## Momotaro (Feb 21, 2003)

Kasselmann, page 276: 

*Other:* Two kinds of _Echinodorus tenellus_ are cultivated in aquariums. they differ in coloring, leaf length, and growth height. Whereas one form displays light green, short blades, as well as low growth in the aquarium, the other form develops medium to dark green, often brownish, considerably longer leaf blades, and a growth height up to 5cm.

That is understood. I never claimed there were not two types of E. tenellus. Note how Kasselmann herself calls them two _kinds_. She has not made the assumption of variety.

Aquarium Plants Handbook does mention two forms and variety. The only problem I would have with The Aquarium Plant Handbook is that it is in fact a plant selling catalog by Oriental Aquarium. I would defer to Kasselmann. I would love to see the other source you cited. Is that an AGA publication?

Now, my objections were not with the types or forms of E. tenellus. I am aware there are three different types being talked about. Magnus does a good job explaining that. What I do object to is the use of the scientific name _Echinodorus microtenellus_. By using this Latin name, you have created a whole new species. I searched and searched and could find no plant in the Genus Echinodorus to be of the species microtenellus. Therefore Echinodorus tenellus and Echinodorus microtenellus (if that species actually existed) would constitute two different plants since they are of two different species.

Calling the plant Echinodorus tenellus var."micro leaf" makes much more sense. 

Either way all of the mentioned forms are in fact _varieties of the same plant_, that plant being Echinodorus tenellus. 

Am I splitting hairs? Let me know and I'll knock it off!

Mike


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

I have 2 types of dwarf sag in my 20g, they've been there for about a month. It's a lo-tech eclipse set up with 2wpg-- and in the month the sag has more than tripled the amount of substrate it covers.

Buck--I have soft water too so maybe that's it. :icon_conf


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Looks like I stirred up the pot some.

Using the images on the aquabotanic store and visiting a few LFS, the micro sword isn't what I want. I've had it years ago, not under the best light mind you, and it fell apart and made quite the mess.

I prefer the rigid lines of dwarf sag or micro tenellus/pigmy chain sword blades. As to which I currently have, I believe it is the dwarf sag. It's been in the tank about four weeks, no runners yet, we'll see what happens. I did go to the LFS and they had a display tank with a grass plant that was dense, short, nice looking with lots of runners. They were selling a bag of clippings of it as "dwarf grass". I didn't buy the clippings because I thought it was the same as mine, but looking back -- that grass they had was a much lighter green with more delicate blades. Perhaps this is the other variation Momotaro mentioned

I think I will go back to the LFS tonight and buy the grass and plant it in my tank as well, see how it fares, and compare the two.


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## Buck (Oct 13, 2002)

greenmiddlefinger said:


> Buck--I have soft water too so maybe that's it.


 My water is very soft and very acidic, Im not sure if thats the key to the dwarf sags but they are outta control. I cant wait till Mark gets his lighting so I can thin them out and bring him some. Mine took a while in the beginning too motifone so dont give up on them. 

Another strange thing I am noticing about the sags, it is the different heights I am getting... 99% of it is the same height at about 2"-3" tall, but I have I'll bet 6 or 7 plants in the patch that are 6-7" tall and dang if it aint very hard to tell the difference between that and the Cyperus helferi which is having a growth spurt finally.  

I just dont get it but I have to say that I am enjoying the dwarf sags and hope to make a nice tank with it... someday soon :icon_roll 

I also believe it or not found some pots of a nice healthy type of hairgrass at WALMART (of all places)! I stared at it and stared at it, and finally said the heck with it I will grab 2 pots to mess with, the worst that happens is I throw it out. Its been sitting in the tank still in the pots for 5 days now and the new growth in that short time has been unreal ! Now I know I have to plant it somewhere but thats another story. Im thinkin its either E parvula or E. acicularis by some of the photos I have seen. 
The Jury is still out on what it is but its growing like crazy in the pots and getting greener by the day. I need more tanks again. :icon_frow


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## Ibn (Nov 19, 2003)

motifone said:


> I did go to the LFS and they had a display tank with a grass plant that was dense, short, nice looking with lots of runners. They were selling a bag of clippings of it as "dwarf grass". I didn't buy the clippings because I thought it was the same as mine, but looking back -- that grass they had was a much lighter green with more delicate blades. Perhaps this is the other variation Momotaro mentioned


Might be dwarf hairgrass that you're actually referring to (sounds very much like your description w/the lighter green coloration and delicate blades).

Buck, the only difference you can really see is the difference in height of the two. E. parvula tops out at 15 cm (approx. 6") and E. acicularis begins at 15 cm and grows up to 25 cm (10"). Given enough light, both of them don't grow to their max height...


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

Hi Ibn,

I googled "dwarf hairgrass". It's not it. It's not that fine.

Tell you what, if I buy the stuff from the LFS I will post it online with the other plant I have. It could very well be just the health and lighting of the plant in the LFS. Looks very similar to mine, but their growth was rabid.

I might get it just as an experiment.


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## silicagel (Nov 7, 2004)

I've had great luck with pygmy chain sword, micro sword and dwarf hair.

All three are growing well in the same tank, but for some reason the micro sword just isn't as attractive as I thought it would be. The leaves are very dark and poor in form. I'm not sure if there's a nutrient deficiency or what, but the other plants look good.

I'd have to recommend the e. tenellus for it's hardy nature and great appearence. Also, there's quite a bit of space between the carpeted leaves of the plant for small fish and invertibrates to roam.

Dwarf hair, while easy to grow and attractive, can get pretty 'dirty' from all the detritus trapped between the leaves.


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## silicagel (Nov 7, 2004)

Just thought I'd mention, since I remembered this thread, I saw a pot of micro sword at walmart today that showed some hints of a purplish red.

It looked as though it might be either the tips of far reaching leaves, or decay. But have you ever seen a green plant decay to a sharp purplish red?

I almost bought it, but I'm done with microsword for the moment. It's growing okay in my tank, but it's not getting the right nutrients or something :icon_roll so it doesn't look right.


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## motifone (Nov 21, 2004)

ok, sorry to dig up this thread again, but somewhat confused.

I orderd from an online vendor what was advertised as Echinodorus tenellus (which is the pygmy chain sword)... Nice plant, but looks different from the Echinodorus tenellus I saw at a LFS today. With the Echinodorus tenellus at the LFS, the blades were shorter than mine and looked different, like the ends of them were kind of oblong, rounded (and no, it wasn't microsword).

I think on this thread someone said there were 2 types of Echinodorus tenellus, so maybe I indeed have one of the versions. Or, maybe I was given a taller version of Dwarf Sag. Hmm . Not sure.

Attached is a pic of the Dwarf Sag and a plant I was sold as Echinodorus tenellus in my tank veres a pic from the internet of what the Echinodorus tenellus looked like at LFS. Don't get me wrong, I like the stuff I received, just curious about discrepencies.










LFS type


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## Steven_Chong (Sep 14, 2004)

What you are seeing is the difference between emersed and submersed forms. The LFs plant is the emersed leaf form, and if kept submersed long the leaves will probably decay and the plant will grow new, grass-like leaves as in your plants.


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## 150EH (Dec 6, 2004)

I have had limited success with Dwarf Sag. and E. Tenellus. I got mine in the same order from AquariumPlants.com and there are very hard to tell apart, the major difference in the Sag. put runners across the top of the substate and the tenellus will put its runners under the subtrate. I gave mine two months or so but they never did much or are really slow growers, I just replaced them with glosso and I'm hoping to get more of a carpet effect. I don't know if it was my lighting or if it was my substrate, someone told me that they might not have done well due to too much Anaerobic bacteria because I never vacuum deep into the substrate, I only lightly vacuum the top.


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