# A note about Leland regulators



## Storm (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah, you should totally believe him, because a Leland regulator is a special regulator, that couldn't possibly work with normal paintball Co2 cylinders... LOL

In case you couldn't tell I'm being sarcastic. What he is telling you is stupid and idiotic. Get an adapter and stop paying so much for cartridges. By the way, his site is down. Can't keep his website running = even more likely he is ripping you off on cartridges.


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## Rev_jim_jones (Sep 25, 2011)

I loled


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Storm said:


> Yeah, you should totally believe him, because a Leland regulator is a special regulator, that couldn't possibly work with normal paintball Co2 cylinders... LOL
> 
> In case you couldn't tell I'm being sarcastic. What he is telling you is stupid and idiotic. Get an adapter and stop paying so much for cartridges. By the way, his site is down. Can't keep his website running = even more likely he is ripping you off on cartridges.


Yeah, I'm sure that Leland was lying to me and I'm going to believe some anonymous guy on the Internet, who offers no proof of any kind. 

I'm not sure what the Leland website being down has to do with ripping me off, but I'm sure you can explain. 

In any event, I don't use Leland regulators because I don't feel like using disposable cartridges. However, you can get cheap cartridges for this regulator (just not those from Leland).

So, I'm not sure what your point is... Maybe you don't know what your point is either.  However, I will probably listen to the manufacturer about the appropriate use of their product and take it on face value* until I find out otherwise.

As a side note, these regulators are expensive. I would suggest a different setup if you are going the paintball route (I'm testing various interesting possibilities).

* If you have amassed some data on the falseness of Leland's claim or you've torn one of their regulators apart and used your engineering and analytical skills to determine the regulator's susceptibility to impurities in its CO2 supply, please do let us know. You sound very knowledgeable, so I'll be waiting with baited breath for your response.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

galabar said:


> Yeah, I'm sure that Leland was lying to me and I'm going to believe some anonymous guy on the Internet, who offers no proof of any kind.
> 
> I'm not sure what the Leland website being down has to do with ripping me off, but I'm sure you can explain.
> 
> ...


Uh yeah CO2 is CO2. No oils or anything as they state is added to tanks. CO2 in a paintball tank is the same as CO2 in those cartridges is the same as the CO2 in my 20# tank. 

Those LeLands are similar to the ADA Speed Regulators that can be purchased as well and ADA sells and adaptor so you can use it on a full sized tank.

So on to that I bet if there was oil in the refillable tanks lots of us would be having serious issues in our tanks. So in 5 years of running CO2 and several different regulators and tanks never had oil come out. Yep guess Leland must be correct. :icon_roll

Craig


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Craigthor said:


> Uh yeah CO2 is CO2. No oils or anything as they state is added to tanks. CO2 in a paintball tank is the same as CO2 in those cartridges is the same as the CO2 in my 20# tank.
> 
> Those LeLands are similar to the ADA Speed Regulators that can be purchased as well and ADA sells and adaptor so you can use it on a full sized tank.
> 
> ...


Your 5 years of experience using different regulators and different tanks is irrelevant. The only thing relevant would be your use of regulators meant for disposable cartridges on refillable cylinders using an adapter.

How many of those have you run? Maybe you have some pictures to show of your setups?

And, even if you did run an example of the above, your experience would be anecdotal. Your single experience isn't a large enough sample to determine how these regulators are effected by refillable cylinders.

As to oil and other containment, there is no oil added to refillable CO2. However, there are lubricants on o-rings, dirt from the surrounding facility, and many other sources of impurities that can be introduced when CO2 cylinders are refilled.

Leland is claiming that there regulators are meant only for disposable cartridges; cartridges that are not even that expensive and are offered by other manufacturers. We don't know how the seat or sensing element or any other part of these regulators is designed.

There are many other solutions out there that are meant for refillable cylinders. Given the inherent dangers in CO2 injection, there is no reason to use the Leland regulators in a way that they were not meant to be used. 

Now, if you do have some engineering knowledge related to these regulators that you'd like to share, I'm all ears.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> Yeah, I'm sure that Leland was lying to me and I'm going to believe some anonymous guy on the Internet, who offers no proof of any kind.


 No, Leland was telling you "We test our product in a specific situation. We don't want to pay to have it tested/certified/UL Approved/Etc for this other situation, so don't use it this way"

Disposable CO2 cartridges have more oil in them than the CO2 you typically get in a refillable bottle. Almost everyone (even welding shops) uses food/beverage grade CO2.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> As to oil and other containment, there is no oil added to refillable CO2. However, there are lubricants on o-rings, dirt from the surrounding facility, and many other sources of impurities that can be introduced when CO2 cylinders are refilled.
> 
> Leland is claiming that there regulators are meant only for disposable cartridges; cartridges that are not even that expensive and are offered by other manufacturers. We don't know how the seat or sensing element or any other part of these regulators is designed.


You don't think that these refillable cartridges are exposed to the same things?


They didn't design their product to use a real tank. That doesn't mean it can't be used that way. Leland just doesn't reccomend it because they didn't design it for that.


They're covering their ass incase you do something dumb and hurt yourself.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Your 5 years of experience using different regulators and different tanks is irrelevant. The only thing relevant would be your use of regulators meant for disposable cartridges on refillable cylinders using an adapter.
> 
> How many of those have you run? Maybe you have some pictures to show of your setups?
> 
> ...


The oil from o rings isn't relevant. If you think that any contaminants are going to damage this regulator any worse than they would any other super high precision regulator you're nuts. 

I mean, off the deep end, nuts. 

The ada speed reg IS the same reg. They sell an adapter. 

Leland actually sells a fitting that would make these regulators fit the standard tank. Those little disposable tanks likely contain the same oil on the metal since they are made using extrusion. I highly doubt the fully wash off the oils. 

If you want to buy this line, I've got some swamp land for sale. PM for inquires.


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## Rev_jim_jones (Sep 25, 2011)

I am still LOLing at Leland with his Oil and contaminant Free Disposable cartridges.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> The oil from o rings isn't relevant. If you think that any contaminants are going to damage this regulator any worse than they would any other super high precision regulator you're nuts.
> 
> I mean, off the deep end, nuts.
> 
> ...


Here are the list of standards that Leland claims to meet with its gas cylinders:



> Approved and in service gas cylinder products meeting
> MIL-PRF-25369, MIL-C-601G, AS601, MIL-C-16385, MIL-C-52053,
> USCG/UL1191, DOT 39, ASTM, FAA/TSO C13, cGMP and USP requirements.


http://www.lelandltd.com/cylinders.aspx

So, yes, I'm guessing there cylinders will introduce less (if any) contaminants compared to a refillable cylinder, which, being refilled often, will have contaminants introduced not only from the tank, but also from the environment.

I'm not sure how well Leland "polices" their distributors (like ADA), but, seeing all the places that sell them and the adapters available, I'm going to guess not much.

Again, nothing has been offered to counter Leland's claim. All I'm seeing is innuendo and false comparisons. Is that really the best you can do?

An industrial sized regulator is going to have a different design than the Leland regulators. A large regulator meant for welding won't be particularly accurate and may have a much larger seat that is less susceptible to impurities.

In any event, I'm surprised that most of the "logical" discussion here is based on anecdotes, "Old Wives Tales," and the like. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to find much critical thinking here.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Here are the list of standards that Leland claims to meet with its gas cylinders:
> 
> 
> http://www.lelandltd.com/cylinders.aspx
> ...


What did leland offer to "support" this claim other than a few broad statements. You're taking leland's word that the refillable canisters are going to be laden with oil and dirt? So the co2 I use in my beer and soda dispensers is dirtier than the co2 in their overpriced canisters?

THis is making me laugh. Seriously. I just laughed, my wife looked over, and said "why are you laughing". My only response was... "wow."

Thanks for the laughs.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> What did leland offer to "support" this claim other than a few broad statements. You're taking leland's word that the refillable canisters are going to be laden with oil and dirt? So the co2 I use in my beer and soda dispensers is dirtier than the co2 in their overpriced canisters?
> 
> THis is making me laugh. Seriously. I just laughed, my wife looked over, and said "why are you laughing". My only response was... "wow."
> 
> Thanks for the laughs.


Again, you are offering no insight here. Leland seems to be claiming certain purity levels in their products (as I posted earlier). They are also claiming that their products are meant for those levels and types of applications.

Clearly, contaminants can (and are) introduced in the refill process in a dirty welding shop that would not be present in a cleanly manufactured non-refillable cylinder. These types of regulators simply pierce the cartridge and leave no room for outside containment to enter. Contrast that to the various connection methods for refillable regulators. The CGA320 connections may have any number of contaminants present when connecting to the cylinder. The cylinder itself has been handled many times with greasy hands.

You arguments (what there are of them) can't be supported by simple common sense.

Now, Leland regulators may be just fine with those dirty refilled cylinders, but it just doesn't seem worth it to try. You have not offered any useful information that would help decide one way or the other.

You simply spout generalizations and LOL. By the way, if this is that funny to you, you might try to get out more often.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

And oh yeah I do have first hand experience.


































































LOL.

Craig


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Craigthor said:


> And oh yeah I do have first hand experience.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Yes, your regulator didn't fail during the time that you used it. Case closed, issue decided.

LOL right back at you. 

p.s. Maybe if you posted 12 pictures of the same regulator rather than 8, your argument would be even more concrete!


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

But my "claims" are no different than leland's "claims". Other than common sense and a few facts to actually back me up. 
The fact that earlier you suggested buying the cheap disposables means obviously we're not concerned with following leland's advice, since we're using lowest common denominator, filled in mexico canisters. They're dirty and grimy. Feel the metal on them. They feel very oily. 

If the cga 320 connection can be dirty, could the connection of a disposable be dirty too? Is it somehow protected by black magic and does not get dirty? I'm confused? 

If all we're really worried about is dirt from OUTSIDE, then what does it really matter? 

Those "standards" you quoted leland as following aren't unique to them. The concoa regulators I use are all lab grad and made in factories with a bajillion iso certs too. That isn't even relevant. 


Plain and simple. What you're saying from leland can't be supported by common sense. All you have is a guy from leland saying don't do it, but the reasoning as to "why" is some hypothetical nonsense. 

The machines that fill these chinsy cheapo disposables aren't inside some black magic dirt free vacuum. They'll be just as succeptible. 

Since my co2 tanks are filled in the same building the fills medical o2 tanks(by Linweld. Airgas fills theirs in the same building too), i'm not real concerned with that. I've never seen in the thousands of o2 tanks I use at work some horrid problem that would make me think dirt or oil is being propelled into my patients lungs. 

If you want us to "support" our claims, support yours. At least common sense is actually on our side. 

How are disposable tanks more clean than refillable? They aren't. That is the answer. Take care of your stuff and don't roll it in the cat litter and you'll be fine.


And BTW, I too have used Leland regs. Never once did I use it on a disposable tank. I ran it for 2 years on a portable keg setup with paintball co2 and took it all around and used it in the park, on the river, etc. Never had a problem. Sold it in like new condition just this last year. I'd disassembled it once and didn't see anything so precision in it I'd be worried about a spec of dirt or a


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

galabar said:


> Yes, your regulator didn't fail during the time that you used it. Case closed, issue decided.
> 
> LOL right back at you.


Never failed and is still running strong for the person whom I sold it to.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Craigthor said:


> Never failed and is still running strong for the person whom I sold it to.


Yup, rock solid proof. I just can't find a way to argue with that. That particular regulator didn't fail so Leland is lying.

Thanks, we can put this issue to rest.

LOL -- hey, I'm laughing now too, but for different reasons.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> But my "claims" are no different than leland's "claims". Other than common sense and a few facts to actually back me up.
> The fact that earlier you suggested buying the cheap disposables means obviously we're not concerned with following leland's advice, since we're using lowest common denominator, filled in mexico canisters. They're dirty and grimy. Feel the metal on them. They feel very oily.
> 
> If the cga 320 connection can be dirty, could the connection of a disposable be dirty too? Is it somehow protected by black magic and does not get dirty? I'm confused?
> ...


Common sense would say that a single use cartridge will not have the level of contaminants that a welding shop refill rig will accumulate. Leland is making very specific claims about its product. Claims that would lead to class action lawsuits if proven not to be the case.

They, as a business, are putting themselves out there and making these claims.

You, as an anonymous Internet poster, are simply spouting your personal Witch Doctory without any proof. Your claims to common sense run counter to common sense.

If you look at a pierce-type regulator, the only thing entering the cylinder is the piercing aparatus. There is very little room (if any) for contamination to enter. Each cartridge is *disposed of* after use and a new, clean cartridge is used.

As for Mexican cartridges, Chinese cartridges, etc., I have no idea of their various qualities. However, I expect that Leland would strongly suggest a cleanly made cartridge of a certain purity level.

Anyway, just give me one piece of critical thinking to work with. Please, just one. Any comment that would be based in fact that I could sink my teeth into. Things feel so vacant with all the responses I've seen so far.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

lol

OS you should temper your responses just a bit, think of everyone as a potential customer. lol

If these regulators are such prima donnas maybe we don't need them. lol


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

fresh.salty said:


> lol
> 
> OS you should temper your responses just a bit, think of everyone as a potential customer. lol
> 
> If these regulators are such prima donnas maybe we don't need them. lol


Ah, now I can agree with this. I definitely think there are better solutions out there for our needs. These seem to be targeted at the medical field and for uses in scientific applications that demand a level or purity that we just don't need.

I'm imagining a hospital administrator would have a cow if he/she found out that one of their CO2 cylinders was refilled by Lou* down at the welding shop. 

* I have no problem with Lou or his CO2. 

p.s. These are at least $135, just for the regulator. The ADA model is $288!!! So, no I don't think these are very appropriate for our use.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

An example of critical thinking might be:



> Of course you can use Leland regulators with refillable CO2 containers. Their seat material is XXX and is YYmm across. Given this, a contamination of Z% should be just fine as is documented in paper ABC.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> Again, you are offering no insight here. Leland seems to be claiming certain purity levels in their products (as I posted earlier). They are also claiming that their products are meant for those levels and types of applications.


And you have offered absolutely nothing for evidence of your claim other than the sales-speak of a sales guy. 

And no, Leland is also claiming impurity of products that are generally food grade, something their product is not.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> Common sense would say that a single use cartridge will not have the level of contaminants that a welding shop refill rig will accumulate. Leland is making very specific claims about its product. Claims that would lead to class action lawsuits if proven not to be the case.


No, common sense would say that food grade CO2 has less contaminants than chinese cartridges that sell at 10 for $5.75


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> And you have offered absolutely nothing for evidence of your claim other than the sales-speak of a sales guy.
> 
> And no, Leland is also claiming impurity of products that are generally food grade, something their product is not.


I've offered the claim of a company that there product should be used in a certain way and a list of the standards that their gas meets and what, I assume, they expect in their regulators.

In terms of engineering, a smaller regulators, with smaller internal components (smaller seat, sensing element, etc.) will be more susceptible to impurities (and failure from those impurities).

So, the Leland claim certainly sounds plausible, those smaller, highly accurate regulators *should* be more susceptible to impurities, and CO2 cylinders refilled as dirty welding shops *will* have more impurities.

What do you have?


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> No, common sense would say that food grade CO2 has less contaminants than chinese cartridges that sell at 10 for $5.75


This statement makes no sense and doesn't fit into the conversation.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Common sense would say that a single use cartridge will not have the level of contaminants that a welding shop refill rig will accumulate. Leland is making very specific claims about its product. Claims that would lead to class action lawsuits if proven not to be the case.
> 
> They, as a business, are putting themselves out there and making these claims.
> 
> ...


VW says I shouldn't use the syntec blend oil I use as they haven't "tested" it. My car has 200,000 miles on it and not a problem 1. 

My point is that you've taken ONE statement from a guy at leland(who is trying to sell something at the same time) and made it out as if there is some huge risk to using these tanks. 

Since you want proof... can you or this tech from leland name one documented instance of a contaminant related problem while using a "non standard" refillable tank?

You didn't even touch on the fact that co2 tanks are filled in the same shops that fill medical oxygen cylinders. 

The threads of a cga 320 tank are no more related than the threads of your disposable tank. 

My point is simple. A statement from them doesn't mean it is anything other than a company trying to sell you something. 

If I told you that mixing RootMedic fertz with Pfertz is highly un-recomended because RootMedic has been tested and designed to work only with RootMedic systems, that would be "correct" but that doesn't mean there is really any danger. RootMedic cannot guarantee the purity of pFertz and thus cannot control any impurities that might react with RootMedic. 

See, I said the same thing. It is a load of crap, but the same thing. 

I know maybe 5 or 6 people who have these leland setups running on paintball tanks that have never had a problem. 

Did you ask the tech for an example of when this might have happened? Try to google it and see if you can find an example. I couldn't, and admittedly spent far too much time doing so. 

All I am saying is that if you can't actually state this has happened to someone or there is an example of it, this hypothetical scare tactic from leland is just a marketing ploy and they obviously stand to make money off of this statement.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> This statement makes no sense and doesn't fit into the conversation.


 
Hold on, so if someone disagrees with you, they're off topic? Sounds typical of the way you argue.

99% of welding shop CO2 is food grade delivered by either Airgas, Roberts Oxygen, or a handful or other companies. There's really no one out there who produces low grade CO2 anymore. It just doesn't exist anymore. Its not financially viable.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Rich Conley said:


> No, common sense would say that food grade CO2 has less contaminants than chinese cartridges that sell at 10 for $5.75


I would be interested to know if anyone knows where these "food grade" CO2 tanks get filled.


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## Rev_jim_jones (Sep 25, 2011)

According to the Leland Site their Cylinders are more precisely filled to the right levels blah blah blah but no where in their literature do they say you cannot use it with other cylinders or adapters. What it does say is 

" HIGH PRESSURE GAS HANDLING EQUIPMENT
specifically designed to be used with
LELAND disposable type gas filled Cylinders"

Which begs to reason does it mean for use with Leland only cylinders or do not use other fittings with leland cylinders?


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

livingword26 said:


> I would be interested to know if anyone knows where these "food grade" CO2 tanks get filled.


Airgas. Roberts, Etc. They're all selling food grade CO2, even to welding shops. I've stated this multiple times.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> In terms of engineering, a smaller regulators, with smaller internal components (smaller seat, sensing element, etc.) will be more susceptible to impurities (and failure from those impurities).


 This is absolutely untrue, and absolutely irrelevant, as you've given no evidence that Refillable tanks have less pure CO2 than disposables.


Wether or not something is prone to failure from contaminants is going to be determined by the tolerances the parts are designed to, not the physical size of the parts.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

As a side note, I do have an email in to Leland as to the dangers involved with refillable cartridges.

I actually wanted to buy these but they simply told me that they were not safe for refillable cartridges, so they lost a sale. Given the high expense of the regulator, it isn't a loss leader, and I wasn't interested in disposable solutions, so they simply lost money.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Rich Conley said:


> Airgas. Roberts, Etc. They're all selling food grade CO2, even to welding shops. I've stated this multiple times.


Yes, I know. I was interested to see if our op could find out where these disposable tanks are filled at. My guess is china.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> Airgas. Roberts, Etc. They're all selling food grade CO2, even to welding shops. I've stated this multiple times.


Again, this is irrelevant. Where a welding shop gets its CO2 is not the point. The point is how they handle their fill stations and who buys from them.

A hospital is not going to go to the welding shop to get its CO2. There procedures would not be considered clean enough. The hospital would have a supplier that guaranteed a certain level of cleanliness and purity.

No one is claiming that the actual gas being delivered to the welding shop is somehow inferior. It is the mechanism that the gas goes through to get to your cylinder from the welding shop and the fact that it is done multiple times.

God, people, please! 

p.s. I guess I thought this was obvious, but I'll be a bit more explicit next time (even though I thought I was being pretty plain).


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## Rev_jim_jones (Sep 25, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> I would be interested to know if anyone knows where these "food grade" CO2 tanks get filled.


As they are listed as ORM-D now they could be filled anywhere and Shipped


The two Major manufacturers are in Taiwan and China both offer Relabeling so chances are the cheap disposable you bought was made by one of these two companies their are minor manufacturers on each continent except Antarctica.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

INteresting, on their own site, they list 65 different sizes of co2 tanks, and only 2 of them are listed as "food grade".

http://www.lelandgas.com/cylinders.aspx


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> Yes, I know. I was interested to see if our op could find out where these disposable tanks are filled at. My guess is china.


The Leland cylinders are made in the USA. I can't comment on the various other cylinders that might be used with their regulators. However, as mentioned before, it is the handling and process of delivery where you need to worry.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

galabar said:


> The Leland cylinders are made in the USA. I can't comment on the various other cylinders that might be used with their regulators. However, as mentioned before, it is the handling and process of delivery where you need to worry.



Thats funny. Watch the second video on Leland's site. Notice when the man moves out of the way, there is chinese writing on the door.

http://www.lelandgas.com/cylinder_safety.htm


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> Thats funny. Watch the second video on Leland's site. Notice when the man moves out of the way, there is chinese writing on the door.
> 
> http://www.lelandgas.com/cylinder_safety.htm


I can't speak for Leland, but they claim this:



> About Us
> Today at our South Plainfield New Jersey Plant…Leland processes millions of disposable gas filled cylinders and assembles and tests dozens of products for use in the aerospace, medical, beverage and safety industries. Our approach to business today is essentially the same as it was 42 years ago, continually improve to provide the customer the ultimate in total satisfaction. Our support and focus towards our customers and employees sets us apart in the fields that we participate in. Research and development of high pressure disposable products is priority investment for our future.


http://www.lelandltd.com/company_background.htm


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Those with Leland regulators, I have a proposed experiment for you.

Take a disposable cartridge and a refillable CO2 cylinder. Drop them both in the mud -- make sure the outlets are good and covered.

Now, give each a quick 2 second rub with a towel. Plug in the disposable cartridge and then the refillable cylinder. Which gives you trouble?


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

galabar said:


> I can't speak for Leland, but they claim this:
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.lelandltd.com/company_background.htm




Today at our South Plainfield New Jersey Plant…Leland *processes* millions of disposable gas filled cylinders and *assembles and tests* dozens of products for use in the aerospace, medical, beverage and safety industries.


Notice your key words there. They don't build anything, they process and assemble it. Its made in China like everything else is. Thats what is happening to our manufacturing base, its all being sent to china and mexico for the cheap labor.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

livingword26 said:


> Thats funny. Watch the second video on Leland's site. Notice when the man moves out of the way, there is chinese writing on the door.
> 
> http://www.lelandgas.com/cylinder_safety.htm


That video mentions a different company. If you read the wording before the video, Leland is simply referring to the initial section of the video where the cartridge explodes from high heat (i.e. don't do that).

It is funny, however, that they link to a video from an unrelated company where only the first section is relevant to what they are discussing. Strange. It looks like the cap is from a different company.


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## Storm (Aug 7, 2011)

This thread is hilarious... Galabar is defending this slimy Leland salesman to the death and those of us that have worked with Co2 for a while are basically telling him that it's all the same gas.

If you want to pay $1 an ounce for Co2, go right ahead. I'll happily pay $1 a pound from my local Airgas refill station and be fine, thank you very much. And, I have a couple dozen tetras and a few Otos and shrimp that don't mind the Airgas quality either...


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Storm said:


> This thread is hilarious... Galabar is defending this slimy Leland salesman to the death and those of us that have worked with Co2 for a while are basically telling him that it's all the same gas.
> 
> If you want to pay $1 an ounce for Co2, go right ahead. I'll happily pay $1 a pound from my local Airgas refill station and be fine, thank you very much. And, I have a couple dozen tetras and a few Otos and shrimp that don't mind the Airgas quality either...


Again, if you read the thread, you would see that we (or at least I) are talking about contamination introduced in the filling process. It doesn't matter where the welding shop buys the gas, they are still a welding shop when you go to get the gas.


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## Surgeon (Jun 17, 2011)

I love my fish but this thread is getting silly !


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Here are a few interesting articles:

http://www.fizzdog.com/uploads/Fountain_Guideline.pdf
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/lasercutting/optimizing-co2-laser-use-part-i

There do seem to be industries that have requirements more strict than ours.


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## Rev_jim_jones (Sep 25, 2011)

So Leland manufactures Both Regulators and Disposable cylinders in there Humongous Processing facility in South Plainfield, NJ? Hell of an operation if they are.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

galabar said:


> Here are a few interesting articles:
> 
> http://www.fizzdog.com/uploads/Fountain_Guideline.pdf
> http://www.thefabricator.com/article/lasercutting/optimizing-co2-laser-use-part-i
> ...


And this:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/food-grade-co2-58297/#post593160
http://www.aquaticplantenthusiasts.com/co2/2993-co2-regulator-contamination.html#post9753


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

galabar said:


> In terms of engineering, a smaller regulators, with smaller internal components (smaller seat, sensing element, etc.) will be more susceptible to impurities (and failure from those impurities).



Why should it matter what the overall size of the components is?

If I had a regulator that is was big as a bus but can still be adjusted down to less than 1 BPS reliably it's still has the same size opening. The same particle of pollen would clog up the works. lol


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

fresh.salty said:


> Why should it matter what the overall size of the components is?
> 
> If I had a regulator that is was big as a bus but can still be adjusted down to less than 1 BPS reliably it's still has the same size opening. The same particle of pollen would clog up the works. lol


In general, it is more the opposite problem that you should worry about -- jamming the seat open. In that case, a spec of pollen will have a greater effect on a smaller seat.

In any event, I can neither confirm or reject the Leland claims with the evidence at hand. However, I'm surprised that so many can. 

I'll post any followups that I get from Leland. This should be interesting.


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## wastewater (Apr 5, 2010)

Craigthor said:


> And oh yeah I do have first hand experience.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very nice, clean, set-ups.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> ...
> 
> Leland actually sells a fitting that would make these regulators fit the standard tank.
> 
> ...


Link?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Link?


They sell regulators with this setup. Williams homebrew sells one and I've spoken first hand with them and they told me it was manufactured by leland. "manufactured" obviously means "assembled for". 

I don't know where you're getting your co2 filled, but perhaps that is your problem. I get mine filled directly by linweld and airgas. ISO certified facilities. There is no difference between "beverage grade and industrial grade". They have no options. They are a clean facility that fill medical oxygen. 

I just don't understand why you're defending something to the death from a salesman when people with experience in this(and not just for aquariums, I have both a 12 tap kegerator and a 6 spout soda fountain).


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> They sell regulators with this setup. Williams homebrew sells one and I've spoken first hand with them and they told me it was manufactured by leland. "manufactured" obviously means "assembled for".
> 
> I don't know where you're getting your co2 filled, but perhaps that is your problem. I get mine filled directly by linweld and airgas. ISO certified facilities. There is no difference between "beverage grade and industrial grade". They have no options. They are a clean facility that fill medical oxygen.
> 
> I just don't understand why you're defending something to the death from a salesman when people with experience in this(and not just for aquariums, I have both a 12 tap kegerator and a 6 spout soda fountain).


So, no link? You are claiming that Leland sells an adapter so that their regulators can be used with paintball cylinders and that they endorse this? This is your claim?

Well, that is something that we can verify.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Why not contact someone like williams homebrew and see if they can tell you of any problems with using refillable cylinders. They've sold a bajillion of them. 

You haven't proven anything other than you'll do whatever a salesman tells you. 

Congrats. I'm unsubscribing now though, because I'm obviously wasting my time. We all are. You're arguing about something you've never even used or seen in person. Those of us with experience must obviously be wrong. We've never gotten emails from salesmen telling us that our cylinders are going to cause our regulators to spontaneously combust.

Go on believing your mexican disposable cartridge is filled in some magical bubble with no dirt or oil and my 5# tanks are filled in mud puddles.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Why not contact someone like williams homebrew and see if they can tell you of any problems with using refillable cylinders. They've sold a bajillion of them.
> 
> You haven't proven anything other than you'll do whatever a salesman tells you.
> 
> Congrats. I'm unsubscribing now though, because I'm obviously wasting my time. We all are. You're arguing about something you've never even used or seen in person. Those of us with experience must obviously be wrong. We've never gotten emails from salesmen telling us that our cylinders are going to cause our regulators to spontaneously combust.


You've been caught!!!! You lied!!!! Ok, I had to get that out of my system.

So, you made up the claim that Leland sells this product?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Leland at one time sold it to williams. I know this for sure. I didn't lie about a damn thing. I'm done. "blocked".


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## Dave10910 (Nov 8, 2011)

galabar said:


> You've been caught!!!! You lied!!!! Ok, I had to get that out of my system.
> 
> So, you made up the claim that Leland sells this product?



It's pretty obvious that you're just trolling at this point.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Dave10910 said:


> It's pretty obvious that you're just trolling at this point.


Hi made a very specific claim. Now he is claiming that they "sold it at one time."

How is me pointing that out a troll?

I'm actually pretty surprised at some of the unsubstantiated comments posted on this thread and elsewhere.

In particular, I've relayed a claim from Leland about the use of their products. I'll try to get some confirmation from an actual engineer (they have a link on their site).

However, I don't tend to make unsubstantiated or made up claims. I think it is sad what people will stoop to to try and win an argument.

p.s. Am I trolling if I point out anyone else's logical falacies or downright lies?

p.p.s. The actual quote: "Leland _*actually sells*_ a fitting that would make these regulators fit the standard tank."


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

galabar said:


> Hi made a very specific claim. Now he is claiming that they "sold it at one time."
> 
> How is me pointing that out a troll?
> 
> ...


Calm down.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Dave10910 said:


> It's pretty obvious that you're just trolling at this point.


Not necessary.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

galabar said:


> So, no link? You are claiming that Leland sells an adapter so that their regulators can be used with paintball cylinders and that they endorse this? This is your claim?
> 
> Well, that is something that we can verify.





galabar said:


> You've been caught!!!! You lied!!!! Ok, I had to get that out of my system.
> 
> So, you made up the claim that Leland sells this product?


You are getting worked up about an internet link for a CO2 part. 
You need to bring this tone way down. Just sayin.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

It took me a total of about 5 seconds googling to find the parts hes talking about.


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## Gatekeeper (Feb 20, 2007)

Ok folks.... this is the last and final warning about the unnecessary personal attacks. Flaming and personal attacks are not necessary to relay content and information. If you see something wrong, correct it, but we don't need to lambast everyone in the process of doing so.

So, that said, lets clean up the tone in here, or infractions are coming out and the thread gets shut down/removed.


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## ClintonParsons (Aug 22, 2011)

Yeah I'd prefer not to have this thread closed... 

Someone mentioned that Leland regulators and ADA regulators are the same thing. Is ADA just rebranding Leland regulators? 

I'm asking because I was considering buying the speed regulator at some point.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

ClintonParsons said:


> Yeah I'd prefer not to have this thread closed...
> 
> Someone mentioned that Leland regulators and ADA regulators are the same thing. Is ADA just rebranding Leland regulators?
> 
> I'm asking because I was considering buying the speed regulator at some point.


Yea. They are exactly the same with different gauge paper and a cover. 100% identical otherwise. Their cylinders are filled by leland too, per communication with a Leland rep. I'll have more from Leland by Tuesday.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

Rich Conley said:


> It took me a total of about 5 seconds googling to find the parts hes talking about.


Could you provide a link to the Leland website for this part? I'd be interested in asking them about it. To this point, there is no evidence that Leland sells (or ever sold) this part.


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## ClintonParsons (Aug 22, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> Yea. They are exactly the same with different gauge paper and a cover. 100% identical otherwise. Their cylinders are filled by leland too, per communication with a Leland rep. I'll have more from Leland by Tuesday.


You just saved me about $150 or so, Sir : ) Thank you! Can you reccomend the specific regulator I need (they have several) for use with a standard 5 pound tank and any adaptors etc I will need? I would appreciate it. 

Sorry if this is OT!


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

ClintonParsons said:


> Yeah I'd prefer not to have this thread closed...
> 
> Someone mentioned that Leland regulators and ADA regulators are the same thing. Is ADA just rebranding Leland regulators?
> 
> I'm asking because I was considering buying the speed regulator at some point.


Yup, at $288 a pop for the ADA ($135 for the Leland)! Of course, they do add a few bells and whistles to it.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

ClintonParsons said:


> You just saved me about $150 or so, Sir : ) Thank you! Can you reccomend the specific regulator I need (they have several) for use with a standard 5 pound tank and any adaptors etc I will need? I would appreciate it.
> 
> Sorry if this is OT!


You can contact them directly. However, I'm guessing that the fixed flow units without gauge would be the cheapest. If you get something in the 30 psi - 50 psi range, there is not much need for an output gauge.

Here are there regulators:

http://www.lelandltd.com/regulating_valves_prd.htm

Of course, you should be sure to ask them (if you buy directly) whether they support attachment to a standard CO2 cylinder (what this crazy thread was started about). Currently, the sales rep I contacted said no. However, every reseller seems to offer an adapter, so who knows. 

p.s. I'd like to thank the moderator. I was definitely getting too worked up in this thread. I guess I felt personally attacked when everyone piled on at the beginning. On a side note, I don't think Frank from Leland is slimy. Just sayin'.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I email Frank with some very "frank" questions. I was blunt and honest. His response was what I expected:


> Hello Justin,
> 
> The food grade gas in our disposable cylinders is filtered for oils and contaminates according to the beverage standards in most countries.
> 
> ...


To me this is about nothing more than selling THEIR disposable canisters. That is the bulk of their business, not the regulators. They are primarily a disposable cartridge company, and make cartridges in a variety of applications. 

I very directly asked Frank two different times in two different emails if they had documented cases of refillable containers actually damaging or causing fault in any of their products. The question was never answered directly. 

It also appears from what he said, that it would mean that discount cylinders from other vendors would void the warranty as well. 

The folks at williams homebrew(who are obviously selling something too, but stand to make more money off of selling the leland canisters than something they don't refill) said this:


> Justin:
> 
> Regarding our R84 Mini Paintball Adapter which goes in the Mini Dual C02 Regulator made by Leland, it is made for paintball tanks, and I have not heard of any paintball C02 having oil or dirt in it.
> 
> ...


In a second email he stated that they had never experienced any regulator faults that could be attributed to using a refillable canister and that the level of return is very low for all, and no change in numbers between those that are sold without the adapter. 

At one point, some 10 years ago, they sold this regulator without the adapter, with a built in nut. They told me it was leland who installed it, but I have no way to independently confirm that, and since leland doesn't use refillable at all now, no way to know I guess. 

Everyone is trying to sell something, remember that.


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## Rich Conley (Jun 10, 2008)

galabar said:


> Could you provide a link to the Leland website for this part? I'd be interested in asking them about it. To this point, there is no evidence that Leland sells (or ever sold) this part.


There's plenty of evidence, as has been pointed out numerous times.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=leland+regulator+adapter


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

OverStocked said:


> I email Frank with some very "frank" questions. I was blunt and honest. His response was what I expected:
> 
> 
> To me this is about nothing more than selling THEIR disposable canisters. That is the bulk of their business, not the regulators. They are primarily a disposable cartridge company, and make cartridges in a variety of applications.
> ...


You've said nothing new. To this point, there has been no link to show the phantom paintball adapter made by Leland. There is also a clear message from Leland that this type of application is not support.

I don't know what else to say. Leland says don't do that. If you want to do it, I can't stop you. However, your emails confirm exactly what I said.

Now, again, if anyone has information about this phantom adapter supplied by Leland for their tanks, please let me know.

p.s. I would suggest not purchasing a $288 ADA regulator just to void the warranty by attaching a refillable cylinder to it.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

> Refillable tanks have valves on the neck which are often removed either by curious people or for an inspection. That allows the potential for contamination.


Again, exactly what I've been saying.

Thank you, I guess, for backing me up.


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

I'm sorry if I've missed something here (I didn't bother reading all 75 posts to this point) but I can't figure out what the argument is even about. That Leland regulator is exactly that, a regulator. It works in the same way any other diaphragm regulator works. You can get a couple different adapters for it for either paintball or cga-320. You aren't going to damage it buy doing so. Period.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

oldpunk78 said:


> I'm sorry if I've missed something here (I didn't bother reading all 75 posts to this point) but I can't figure out what the argument is even about. That Leland regulator is exactly that, a regulator. It works in the same way any other diaphragm regulator works. You can get a couple different adapters for it for either paintball or cga-320. You aren't going to damage it buy doing so. Period.


Well, the company (Leland) is claiming that you should not and they are, from the most recent email posted (err..., thanks Overstock), actually voiding the warranty on the regulator if you do.

So, given that these regulators are extremely expensive (especially the ADA branded version), it would seem prudent to only use them with disposable cartridges.

Of course, I would probably not recommend these regulators as there are other compact options that are better (and definitely full size options that are better) and cheaper.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

galabar said:


> Again, exactly what I've been saying.
> 
> Thank you, I guess, for backing me up.


That is what Frank the sales guy said.... Not what I said. I can't say I've ever known anyone to take apart a co2 tank. I worked in a paintball tank in college and never knew anyone to do so either. 

What I'm saying is very clear. There is not actual documentation of it and that this is clearly a means to sell more product. 

Earlier in this thread you suggested cheaper canisters, those too would void the warranty. They only want you to use THEIR product. 

Notice that they don't document any instances of it and he ignored me when pressed. 

If you can't see past an attempt to sell something, I can't help anymore.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Unless you tell them you'd used an adapter, there is no possible way they'd ever be able to tell. As far as the input is concerned, there is absolutely no difference in the gas coming out of the cylinders. To make you happy I have an email into a dozen gas distributors concerning the purity and cleanliness of their gas and filling procedure. 


<------------------------------------------------------------------

You've taken a statement from a salesmen and turned it into something of outlandish proportions. I'm not sure that anyone could ever make you happy here. My advice is simple, don't use the regulator with a paintball tank if you don't want to. However, the thousands of people who use them this way every day prove there is nothing to fear in doing so. It is merely a compact diaphragm based regulator. It isn't like we're talking a microscopic opening that could be clogged by a piece of dust. If it is easily clogged then it is obviously crap. 

However, they never said it was easily clogged. They said they want you to use the product they sell. If you think it is for any other reason that to make money, I don't have anything else to say. It is obvious to the rest of the free world it is just sales talk. 

Perhaps you should read this sentence:
Please feel free to purchase our regulators, and use them in any means you please.

Also, attaching a paintball tank to an ADA tank will NOT void it. It is a labeled ADA product. ADA services the warranty on this product. You're doing yourself a disservice when you say things that are blatantly false. People should have no fear of buying an ADA Reg or the williams setup and using patinball co2. No one will ever know the difference and if it breaks it won't be from that black magic tank of terror. 



galabar said:


> Well, the company (Leland) is claiming that you should not and they are, from the most recent email posted (err..., thanks Overstock), actually voiding the warranty on the regulator if you do.
> 
> So, given that these regulators are extremely expensive (especially the ADA branded version), it would seem prudent to only use them with disposable cartridges.
> 
> Of course, I would probably not recommend these regulators as there are other compact options that are better (and definitely full size options that are better) and cheaper.


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## livingword26 (Oct 28, 2010)

Rich Conley said:


> There's plenty of evidence, as has been pointed out numerous times.
> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=leland+regulator+adapter



I've done quite a bit of looking myself today, and I haven't found anywhere that says Leland builds the adapter, including from your link. Perhaps you could give a specific link. 

Having said that, I think it is clear, from all the research that has been done, that lelands regulators work on the same principals as any other regulator. That makes is clear that they are in no more danger than any other regulator, from damage caused by contaminates in co2. It also makes it clear, in my mind at least, that if they want to void their warranty to try to force people to by their overpriced co2, then I am not interested in their product.


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## ClintonParsons (Aug 22, 2011)

I am pretty sure using anything non-ADA with an ADA adaptor will void the warranty. I am not saying that it will make a difference, but if you let it slip that you used some non-ada adaptor if the reg ever breaks (even if it was from a factory defect) they will probably say that that voided the warranty and it's not their problem. 

I had a diffuser pop on it's own and they said the warranty was voided because I didn't use their needle valve. Luckily ADG replaced it for me.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

ClintonParsons said:


> I am pretty sure using anything non-ADA with an ADA adaptor will void the warranty. I am not saying that it will make a difference, but if you let it slip that you used some non-ada adaptor if the reg ever breaks (even if it was from a factory defect) they will probably say that that voided the warranty and it's not their problem.
> 
> I had a diffuser pop on it's own and they said the warranty was voided because I didn't use their needle valve. Luckily ADG replaced it for me.


They make it to attach to US threaded bottles. 

http://www.adgshop.com/CO2_Speed_Regulator_p/101-303.htm


> Price includes a custom made brass adpater to attach the Speed Regulator's metric threads to the standard threads of U.S. pressurized CO2 bottles.


ADA does not make a US threaded co2 tank, so.... It'd be impossible to use. 

If ADG is selling something that is voiding the warranty out of the box, I'd be pretty shocked.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

ClintonParsons said:


> I am pretty sure using anything non-ADA with an ADA adaptor will void the warranty. I am not saying that it will make a difference, but if you let it slip that you used some non-ada adaptor if the reg ever breaks (even if it was from a factory defect) they will probably say that that voided the warranty and it's not their problem.
> 
> I had a diffuser pop on it's own and they said the warranty was voided because I didn't use their needle valve. Luckily ADG replaced it for me.


I guess there are two issues -- traditional Leland regulators and the rebranded regulators sold be ADA. Now, it seems that Leland (through Frank, the sales guy) has stated that the warranty would be void for the standard regulator. How can they tell? That is hard to say. Are the threads for a cartridge softer, not causing noticeable wear on the regulator threads that a steel/brass adapter would? Are you willing to lie about it?

As for the ADA regulator, that is a strange one. If you returned it to ADA, would they then return it to Leland? Clearly they are doing something that Leland does not support. I would *love* to hear that conversation.


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## ClintonParsons (Aug 22, 2011)

Well, if you click on extended info it says"

"Please note that use of the included adapter to convert metric to standard thread will voids the Japanese warranty of the Speed Regulator. For warranty claims of CO2 Speed Regualtor, please contact Aquarium Design Group at (713) 622-6467, or e-mail [email protected]"

Technically the warranty isn't voided until you attach the adaptor ;P 

ADG tells you up-front that using their non-ada brand (since they don't make one) metric to us adaptor will void the ADA warranty(but unless you have a metric cylinder and know where to get it filled, you can't use it without this adaptor in the states) and if something happens, ADG will take care of it and not ADA. 

In reality, it is a way for ADA to get out of replacing a regulator, just like they said they wouldn't replace my diffuser because I didn't use their needle valve (I was using a Fabco inline). The glass was just weak I guess. ADG replaced it for free and if a speed regulator had a problem that wasn't the user's fault, ADG would likely do the same. ADG really takes care of their customers (especially regulars.)



If you lived in a country that uses metric tanks and doesn't need anything not-provided from ADA, if there was a defect and you wanted ADA to honor their warranty they'd probably ask you if you used THEIR co2 Tower and tank (It's about $700 btw) and if not, I can easily see them saying the warranty is void because you used another tank from another manufacturer. If you DID use their tank and they honored the warranty, they'd probably just throw it away or investigate it themselves and give you a new one.


But like Overstocked said, it only voids the warranty if you TELL THEM you used an adaptor. If you kept your mouth shut (or lied) it should be covered; they would never be able to tell. 

It's all about making money and for Leland and ADA and and minimizing any potential loss of profits; it's just business even if it is crap.


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## galabar (Oct 19, 2011)

ClintonParsons said:


> Well, if you click on extended info it says"
> 
> "Please note that use of the included adapter to convert metric to standard thread will voids the Japanese warranty of the Speed Regulator. For warranty claims of CO2 Speed Regualtor, please contact Aquarium Design Group at (713) 622-6467, or e-mail [email protected]"
> 
> ...


Well, that sucks. Selling an adapter that voids your warranty?!?

Of course, just the fact that you bought the product from them with the adapter means that they know you used the adapter. 

I suppose you could tell them you bought the adapter because you wanted to add it to the bling on the chain around your neck.


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## spratocaster (Apr 6, 2008)

I sent a note to Williams Brewing asking whether their "Mini Dual CO2 Regulator", which seems to be a Leland regulator and they claim is usable with "standard paintball" tanks, was fully warranted when used with refillable paintball tanks. I even stated that Leland claims that use of refillable tanks voids the warranty. This was there response



> Yes it is when used with paintball tanks that are refilled. Thanks for your interest.
> 
> Bill Moore
> William's Brewing Customer Support
> ...


It would seem that Williams is standing behind this application.


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## ClintonParsons (Aug 22, 2011)

galabar said:


> Well, that sucks. Selling an adapter that voids your warranty?!?
> 
> Of course, just the fact that you bought the product from them with the adapter means that they know you used the adapter.
> 
> I suppose you could tell them you bought the adapter because you wanted to add it to the bling on the chain around your neck.


ADG is a seperate entity from ADA. ADA doesn't sell anything directly to the consumer.


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## samamorgan (Dec 31, 2011)

Not to bring back an old thread, but i would like to point out that this "Leland" regulator is not made by leland. It is made by a company in China called Ningbo Yinzhou Topmas Pneumatic Technology Co., Ltd. The regulator is simply rebranded by both Leland and ADA.

I am currently in the process of making a sizable purchase of regulator bodies from this company. When i get them, i will gladly take one apart to show off the internals, if anyone is interested in comparing them to the ADA and Leland equivalents.

If you really want source links for my information, use Google. This isn't a medical journal and those in this thread who ahve been expecting people to substantiate all evidence should do the damned research themselves before they counterargue.


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