# Amazonia- the substrate from H**L!



## thief (Jan 12, 2008)

Hmm.. It sounds like you didn't set it up correctly. 

1. Take Bowl or bucket ( doesn't matter ).
2. Fill with water.
3. Use hands to mix the substrate ( this gets rid of the floating, dust, and basically most of the stuff that clouds the water the first month or so)

4. Now you have most of the contaminants out but I like to run the water and mix at the same time. 

5 Keep mixing until you can see the water with the Amazonia soil getting clearer (more transparent) 

*Note*: be gentle with the substrate (it breaks up easily thus crating the bad looking water.

6. Now you can place substrate inside tank.

7. Fill up slowly!!! (As slow as possible) 
8. Water should be semi clear.

Perform water changes as necessary to your specific requirements. 

Basically you need to treat your substrate carefully. When setting up, and also when performing water changes.

As for it being permanent I cannot answer as you have introduce unknown elements like the substrate from the river and such.

I hope this helps a little at least.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

What were the details? 

1. Did you take out all the existing plants and pour the AS in with your old substrate, then mixed it? 
2. Did you just leave it as a top layer? 
3. If it was mixed, did you rinse the old substrate before adding the AS?

I know for sure that in a 16g tank with pure AS (I), it wouldn't have caused what you have. Also you need to follow the fill rules as theif stated above.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

speedie408 said:


> What were the details?
> 
> 1. Did you take out all the existing plants and pour the AS in with your old substrate, then mixed it?
> 2. Did you just leave it as a top layer?
> ...


+1...except for the fact that washing ADA AS usually make the problems worse.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

epicfish said:


> +1...except for the fact that washing ADA AS usually make the problems worse.


I didn't say to wash the AS haha.  Unless you were referring to theif's post. However I referred the OP to theif's post so shame on me. haha

I used AS(I) in my 10 G (about 3/4 of a big bag) and didn't rinse. Just used my hands to prevent the water from splashing when I was pouring. Everything was clear after the first day of running my HOB filter.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

speedie408 said:


> I didn't say to wash the AS haha.  Unless you were referring to theif's post.


That I was.


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

I was _very _careful in placing a layer of AS on the part of the existing substrate I included in the re-do. As for the river gravel, that's just how I describe the coarse pebble substrate I originally purchased at the LFS. My information comes from a link that took me to one of Barr's postings about having to clean out all of the Amazonia from a very large tank after trying every other conceivable method to clear it. He indicated that with hard water (which I have) the Amazonia discoloration and cloudiness might be a permanent issue. Obviously, I don't want to do a complete tear down again (especially so soon after the last one), but I don't know how much longer my plants can handle the reduced light, and even if the fish don't seem to mind, it just looks terrible. I think we all do this partly to create something beautiful, and my current situation is about as far from beautiful as it is possible to be. Unless someone knows a "fix" for this, I guess I will spend my Saturday in an attempt to remove the dreaded AS.

_1. Did you take out all the existing plants and pour the AS in with your old substrate, then mixed it? 
2. Did you just leave it as a top layer? 
3. If it was mixed, did you rinse the old substrate before adding the AS?
_
1.NO
2.YES
3. Everything came out, and the old substrate was rinsed before replacing, then the AS added as a top layer.:icon_sad:


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

If you are trying to add AS to an established tank, it might be best to soak it in a bucket with a powerhead for a couple weeks, changing the water every day or two.

It is a pain, but you can vacuum it out with a tube, 1/2-3/4 ID will probably work best.

AS will leach a ton of tannins and ammonia for a while when new, so adding it directly to an established tank really isn't the best. It works much better when it is the first thing in a tank so it can run it's course prior to adding plants, fish and light.

Sorry you have to find that out the hard way


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

Minsc- thanks for your response. I believe you are right on all counts (even though they tell you _not _to rinse the AS). Looks as though I'm stuck trying to undo what I thought was a _good_ idea.


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

By the way, [http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/2955-i-hate-ada-aqua-soil.html] is where I read about hard water vs. AS, and the seemingly eternal difficulty.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

I have hard water back home and I was always with issue till I bunged 3 bags of purigen into my filter.


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## garuf (May 30, 2007)

Also, every day water changes of 50% every day for 2weeks are amazing for getting a tank really bedded in.


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## quicktap (Apr 6, 2008)

There is an AS for high pH water, Amazonia II, to reduce the leeching that occurs when Amazonia is used in that environment.

I understand that you're saying hard water, but it may be the alkalinity that's getting you. I'm about an hour and a half south of Nashville, my tap water has a pH of 8.2 or so.

-qt


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

comatoast said:


> By the way, [http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/2955-i-hate-ada-aqua-soil.html] is where I read about hard water vs. AS, and the seemingly eternal difficulty.


No offense but the report you quoted is in reference to using ADA AS in a "massive" tank. I could be wrong, but ADA AS is Tom Barr's choice of substrates and he recommends it for smaller tanks. A 16 gallon tank would hardly fit the definition of massive. I think Tom's main point in that article was to dissuade people from using ADA AS in "massive" tanks. Either way it would be interesting to hear from Tom himself, so hopefully he will chime in to clear the air. 

IMHO, your biggest mistake was likely adding ADA AS to an established tank over an established substrate. It was really meant to be used on its own.
IME, I have used ADA AS II which is even more controversial and deemed problematic, then ADA AS, I have yet to see the kinds of issues that you experienced either in my 3 gallon as per my signature or the 15 gallon high tank that I previously setup. http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/substrate/57612-15-gallon-high-aquasoil-ii-experimental.html 

H*ll, I even used some to start an emersed 5 gallon with HC, bacopa, and cryptocorne and plant growth is incredible. The same with the 3 gallon emersed I started with pearlweed, rotala indica, HC,and dwarf hairgrass. Again the plant growth is incredible. I doubt that I could achieved similar results with any other substrate based on other peoples' emersed setups. My tap water is considered harder than average and some say like "liquid rock," although I would not go that far.


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

What I picked up from the Barr post was the problematic combination of hard water & AS. And gee, I thought my 16gal. was a behemoth (really now, LMAO).


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

The link you posted gave me a "page not found" error so I can't reference the post in question. I do remember a thread of Tom's about having to remove aquasoil from a huge tank because the tank was so large that you had to stand inside it to trim and clean which destroyed the aquasoil. He also had problems with I believe losing some fish in his 180 when he dumped in extra aquasoil after the tank was already stable and didn't do the necessary follow up water changes. That said Tom recommends this substrate all the time. I have hard tap water and have had no issues with the amazonia I used in my two 50 gallon tanks. IMO with every thread like this that I have read about how horrible aquasoil is the problem always seems to be either a bad batch of aquasoil or "pilot error". The product is expensive and it would not be as popular as it is if it was as problematic as some make it out to be and wasn't excellent for growing plants.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

thief said:


> *Note*: be gentle with the substrate (it breaks up easily thus crating the bad looking water.
> 
> 6. Now you can place substrate inside tank.
> 
> ...


Op,

Did you do what theif stated above in bold? I just don't see where you can go wrong with a tank so small, especially since you're only using AS as a top layer. I'm puzzled since I also have "liquid rock" tap water and my tank is fine. But then, I didn't mix it with established substrate. That could very well be your problem there.

Another question for you:
What filter are you running?


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

Speedie: 
As previously stated, I was _very_ careful in placing the AS (very slow refill), and I just finished my ninth 30% water change in the last 13 days. The water coming out is as yellow as it was on the first water change. I'm starting to think everyone who is using this stuff believes me to be a complete idiot who must have screwed up. OK- I am in total agreement that I screwed up and should have NEVER attempted to add this stuff to my existing tank- but I did it as carefully as possible, and have performed maintenance above and beyond the call to try and rectify the situation. Instaed of everyone telling me what I must've done wrong, it would be refreshing to have someone suggest a possible SOLUTION. After all, I posted the issue for advice, not admonishment.


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

Sorry Speedie, I meant to tell you that I'm using a small Ehiem Ecco filter (which has had the fine filter floss changed twice in the last 13 days.


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## Minsc (Jul 9, 2006)

Maybe you won't have to pull it.

Have you tried adding activated carbon or Purigen to the filter? That could really help with the discoloration. If there is ammonia present, you can add ammo chips as well.


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

captain_bu said:


> ...*The link you posted gave me a "page not found" error so I can't reference the post in question.*...



This is because of the extra ] sign he added after the .html. This is the right link with the ] removed and it works fine.
http://www.barrreport.com/general-plant-topics/2955-i-hate-ada-aqua-soil.html


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

Minsc-

The filter was running with Seachem Renew (and Matrix) when this ordeal began, then I added Purigen about four days in, then I replaced both with Pura Complete (which contains carbon, ammonia filtration and ion exchangers) about three days ago, which is what's running now. The water at the last water change (about an hour ago) was as yellow as ever. BTW, I appreciate your advice- it's far easier to just point out what went wrong...


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## captain_bu (Oct 20, 2007)

Comatoast.... the implied advice in my post is that if there was no error in the way the product was used you may have simply gotten a bad batch... suggest you contact whoever you bought it from, explain your experience and ask about the possibility of them replacing it. It is hard to give advice on how to fix a problem you haven't experienced and fixed yourself but it certainly shouldn't hurt to offer a differing experience for comparison. I hope you can solve your problem (preferably without having to replace the aquasoil) because it is a great product and I think once you get past this glitch you will be glad you chose it. FWIW I used Zeolite and Purigen in the filter of the first aquasoil tank I set up but not with the second tank. I didn't see any difference in water clarity and both tanks cycled to the zero ammonia point in exactly 14 days after doing 70-80% daily water changes. With the first tank I planted after filling which was a mistake, horribly cloudy at first from disturbing the substrate but a single huge water change after planting cleared it up. With the second tank I planted after dampening the substrate and then carefully filled, no cloudiness at all. 

Good luck!

Homer... thanks for the corrected URL... will check out the link in question.


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## rbarn (Mar 21, 2009)

I would be patient ...............

Powering thru ADA AS and cloudy water right now too.


I live in Houston and have been in the ADG show room couple of times
and they are now ADA dealers, so I gave Jeff Senske a call today to talk about
ADA AS in Hard water and cloudy conditions. (Houston has hard water too)

Their exact words about ADA and Hard water problems was "take that info and stick it in the trash ........... ADA AS is fine in hard water."

You just have to be patient.

He said it is very normal for ADA to require massive water changes for
first few weeks every other day, especially on a new tank.

Give it couple more weeks for before freaking out too bad and redoing everything.


He did ask if water has milky white or tan in color as there might be a 
different cause. Mine has been typical milky white, while yours sounds to
be the tan issue.

You might consider calling Jeff at ADG, great guys, he was more than happy
to talk to me for 5-10mins on an out of the blue phone call.
http://www.adgshop.com/aboutus.asp


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## comatoast (Mar 11, 2009)

rbarn- thanks very much, nice to know I'm not the only one who's dealing with this. I may very well call Jeff. I decided to hang in and wait a little longer, have done two more water changes and a filter cleaning since Friday, and I hope it isn't just wishful thinking that makes it seem to be getting a little better. Interesting info about the "white vs. tan" thing. I was _really_ tan before, but seem to be morphing into the white cloudiness now- hopefully, that's progress. Thanks again for your help-


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