# Is Active Soil realy necessary for shrimp?



## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

Thanks for the link, very inspiring and no commercial smell ;-)

I did plan a tank with inert eco-complete but it kept increasing TDS and PH, so I failed.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

If you have perfect water, you don't need to or can get your RO water to a decent pH. The other thing is slow acclimation over time to a different pH. At the start, you will get less babies, but the ones that do survive will be adjusted to that pH and gh/kh level and be able to make it. I've talked to several European breeders and some have high pH in their areas so they get TB's or CRS, make some low pH water and the acclimate them over 4-5 months to a higher pH, first gen not a lot of babies but as their population grows, it becomes more suited to that water and they can raise TB's in a 7-8pH water. Serveral users on here have show tanks full of CRS at a 7+pH. I know a few ppl in my area that have the same, sell CRS at auctions all the time and just hard tap water and a few IAL's. I'm sure at the start he had low baby yields but over time his CRS are now breeding heavily in a high pH tank.


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## diwu13 (Sep 20, 2011)

I wonder how he keeps his ph steady without any active substrates. Does he use a lot of peat or coral?


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

diwu13 said:


> I wonder how he keeps his ph steady without any active substrates. Does he use a lot of peat or coral?


If your RO water is 7pH and you mix some gh/kh booster in it, why would the pH change? How does a pH stay steady in a normal gravel fish tank with tap water?


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## randyl (Feb 1, 2012)

diwu13 said:


> I wonder how he keeps his ph steady without any active substrates. Does he use a lot of peat or coral?


He said he uses RO with added mineral, 1/3 WC bi-weekly. It takes a lot of experience to keep water stable that way, I think it's not for beginners like me.

PS: it's like saying Michael Jordon can beat me in basketball bare footed and me in thousand dollar sneakers. It doesn't mean you're better off playing basketball bare footed.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

We can speculate all we want, but experience is what we all need.  Let's hear some personal experience.


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

I use plain sand in most of my shrimp tanks. Neos especially. Never have pH fluctuations.

If I'm using tap, I age and aerate it for several days after dechlor. If RO/DI, I reconstitute and drop it in. 

In some of my Neo and Tiger tanks (usually only run them a year or two), I mix basic sand with aragonite/crushed coral to keep the pH up above 7. And that's even tough to do with my hideous tap water.

Have found active soils are great as an added measure of protection against screwing up horribly. Using them to keep pH low when you already have access to RO/DI water and complete parameter control isn't necessary, in my opinion. But that's just me.


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## CookieM (Feb 7, 2012)

I use Onyx Sand (not really sand just tiny gravel) and Black Moon Sand for 2 of my tank. Successful breeding once the tank is cycled & established. 

I tried using active soil before and dislike the fact that it's light, ugly color, and easily cloudy.


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

Nick,

I've contemplating the idea myself. I'm glad you brought this topic up. I know DK mention she uses inert gravel/substrate because it last indefinitely. ADA Aquasoil and Akadama has a life span of 1-2 years before eventually breaking down and turning into mud. For people that need the buffering that ADA AS and Akadama provides, it's not a bad idea, but for long term breeders, having to restart the tank every 2 years can be quite troublesome. 

Recently, I've been thinking about redoing my Invert Rack to house the different Tiger Shrimps morphs. From what I've gathered online and blogs, Tigers, Blue Tigers, Black/Royal Tigers, and Tangerine Tigers do pretty well in harder water. Breeders in Germany have successfully bred Tigers in 7.2-7.5pH, 8-10gH, 5-7kH water. Luckily, the water in the Bay Area is pretty ideal for keeping and breeding these guys, which is a really big plus because it is really cost effective to buy inert gravel. :thumbsup:

Do you guys think it's necessary to use ADA Aquasoil and/or Akadama if you can achieve the water parameters required to keep picky shrimps such as Crystal Reds and Blacks happy? I'm currently using Eco-Complete in Neo tanks with RO water rematerialized with Kent's RO Right. Which has been working for Neos because they are so hardy and they don't mind the higher TDS. Kent's RO Right has a very high TDS:gH ratio compared to Mosura Mineral Plus.

Anyways, I've gathered some information from different cities in the Bay Area. I'll post them here to help my peeps in the Bay.


Milpitas Tap (Awesome tap water for Shrimp keepers)
pH: 6.8-6.8
gH: 2
kH: 2
TDS: 21-24

San Jose Tap (Worst of the three cities)
pH: 7.5
gH: 5
kH: 4
TDS: 181-185

San Francisco Tap (Ok water quality)
pH: 7.6
gH: 3-4
kH: 3
TDS: 69-70


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## ShortFin (Dec 27, 2005)

MrFusion used to have sand w/ black lava rocks. I believed he has change to bare bottom now. Perhaps he will see your post and chime in.


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## shrimpnmoss (Apr 8, 2011)

speedie408 said:


> My next tank is going to be inert sand. :hihi:


Good luck Nick! Keep us updated on how it goes.

Edit: I think this goes to show there are many ways to do things. When it comes to breeding shrimps the most important factor will always be *water quality and stability*. Who cares how you get there. I think this method is an example of German/European vs Asian style of keeping shrimps.


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

ch3fb0yrdee said:


> Nick,
> 
> I've contemplating the idea myself. I'm glad you brought this topic up. I know DK mention she uses inert gravel/substrate because it last indefinitely. ADA Aquasoil and Akadama has a life span of 1-2 years before eventually breaking down and turning into mud. For people that need the buffering that ADA AS and Akadama provides, it's not a bad idea, but for long term breeders, having to restart the tank every 2 years can be quite troublesome.
> 
> ...


Thai - give it a go, experiment and see how things work out bro. I don't think anyone here has a factual answer unless they've successfully bred harder to keep/breed shrimp in sand/gravel setups. Not to mention for how long they'e been doing so. Like I've said before, we Americans still have a lot to experiment for ourselves.



ShortFin said:


> MrFusion used to have sand w/ black lava rocks. I believed he has change to bare bottom now. Perhaps he will see your post and chime in.


I'll see if I can ping him .



shrimpnmoss said:


> Good luck Nick! Keep us updated on how it goes.
> 
> Edit: I think this goes to show there are many ways to do things. When it comes to breeding shrimps the most important factor will always be *water quality and stability*. Who cares how you get there. I think this method is an example of German/European vs Asian style of keeping shrimps.


Bingo! 

I'll keep posted.


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## Bananariot (Feb 28, 2012)

All my tanks in college are sand. I never really had shrimp deaths till switching to fluorite. I am interested in other substrates for the sake of plants but all my shrimp are doing well in sand so far.

The CRS are berrying, neos are reproducing, I think as long as water changes are kept up with inert sand is awesome. I only run 2 sponges in my lowtech 10 but the shrimp are thriving!


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

I think part of this decision would could down to what your source RO comes out as pH wise and if you remineralize the gh/kh to the specifics for that breed, I don't see the pH as being the end all factor. High pH water tends to be higher in gh/kh, so using a high ph water comes with those factors and lower ph source water is usually softer and lower in gh/kh, so its easier to use. As I said above, I know some European breeders use a higher pH RO water because that's what they have and do fine with TB/CRS/CBS, etc but they probably keep the gh/kh in the right areas. You let natural selection take it's toll for a round or two of breeding and you get shrimp adaptable to that water. There is people on shrimp now with a tank capable of cardinals and CRS in the same tank.


My conclusion after being in this hobby for 14 or so months, is whatever works for you, keep it there. There is a zillion numbers and sites out there saying IT HAS to be this way for this shrimp, but if it works for you, keep the water stable there, keep it clean, don't change it a lot, don't mess around with a million additives unless you know what they contain, what they are doing to your water, etc and you will eventually have a self sustaining population of shrimp with extras to sell/trade/etc.


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Jan 26, 2010)

I have a couple of tanks with Akadama but the majority are bare bottom or flourite sand. I use 100% ro water remineralized to 140 tds. Been doing it the same way for several years. (Use to do 80% ro with 20% tap)


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## ch3fb0yrdee (Oct 2, 2008)

Alpha Pro Breeders said:


> I have a couple of tanks with Akadama but the majority are bare bottom or flourite sand. I use 100% ro water remineralized to 140 tds. Been doing it the same way for several years. (Use to do 80% ro with 20% tap)


Do you mind letting us know what you're using to remineralize the water and what shrimp species you keep?


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## Jorge_Burrito (Nov 10, 2010)

I had a tank setup for awhile with black sand raising SS CRS. Did about 25% water changes weekly using remineralized RODI. Got breeding and lots of babies, but survival rates seemed somewhat diminished compared to tanks with active substrate.


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## Senior Shrimpo (Dec 4, 2010)

Even if it's not necessary, it's pretty nice to have. The plant growing bonus is awesome, it keeps your pH down, and shrimp eat it. You can't say that for sand, bare bottom tanks etc.

But yeah a lot of high quality breeders only focusing on shrimps do bare bottom or split bare bottom/substrate tanks. They're cool, not as pretty IMO though. 

Also sand looks ugly with shrimp poop in it haha aquasoil hides it so well.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Senior Shrimpo said:


> Even if it's not necessary, it's pretty nice to have. The plant growing bonus is awesome, it keeps your pH down, and shrimp eat it. You can't say that for sand, bare bottom tanks etc.
> 
> But yeah a lot of high quality breeders only focusing on shrimps do bare bottom or split bare bottom/substrate tanks. They're cool, not as pretty IMO though.
> 
> Also sand looks ugly with shrimp poop in it haha aquasoil hides it so well.


I can say even my mosses, frogbit, everything seems to benefit from the nutrients in the active soil and I don't have to fert anything, it just grows better, greener, more lush in those tanks over my gravel tanks.


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## ykh (Jul 21, 2006)

All of my shrimp tanks are bare bottom except the 20g tank with crs.


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## splur (Nov 26, 2011)

I was considering fluorite for my shrimp tank after my active soil goes kaput. Any reason not to use fluorite?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

I'm glad to hear there are some folks who have been doing bare bottom and inactive substrates. Those who have, do you guys mind sharing your stories/experiences? How long you've been doing it that way? How successful as far as breeding goes? What type of shrimp, etc?


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## somewhatshocked (Aug 8, 2011)

My newest sand tank is about a year old. 5.5gal tank, mosses, anubias, crypts, ferns, random grasses and such. Originally meant to be a quarantine tank that ended up being a shrimp tank.

Houses Neos, Babaulti (dark-colored ones, though nothing specific as far as coloration goes - just mutts), Amano, CRS, Tigers at one point. 

Have probably pulled about a thousand Neo juvies from the tank this year, easily 200 CRS and about the same number of Babaulti. Had about 15 Tiger shrimplets before giving them away.

Standard sponge filter, RO water, small water changes every 12-14 days, even the occasional fert dosing and root tabs (made from red clay + Osmocote Plus). 

Only shrimp that I ever seem to lose - that I find, anyway - are Amanos as they die of old age. 

I just don't prefer sand for shrimp tanks. Primarily because I enjoy plants too much. ADA Aquasoil and the like offer the bonus of feeding plants with the added protection of buffering if you need it. So it's a no-brainer for me. Unless I don't want anything beyond mosses and tiny plants in the tank.



speedie408 said:


> I'm glad to hear there are some folks who have been doing bare bottom and inactive substrates. Those who have, do you guys mind sharing your stories/experiences? How long you've been doing it that way? How successful as far as breeding goes? What type of shrimp, etc?


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

How much active substrate does it take to effectively buffer a tank of water, say a 20g tank since that's probably one of the more popular shrimp breeding sizes? I mean, could you have a bare/sand bottom tank and use a buffering substrate and add that to your filter? Would that be enough? Would it last long enough to even be worth it. I mean, if it needed replaced monthly then I guess there wouldn't be much point other than saving the mess of having to replace it in the tank every 1-2 years.


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## wicca27 (May 3, 2009)

i have sand in some and gravel in others. when i use gravel i dont vac it just for the fact baby shrimp are to small to see and they go between the gravel. no kind of filter or anything just gravel water and some hornwort. i do top offs from time to time. i dont know if you would call my sand none active for the fact i use miracle grow organic potting mix under about 1.5-2 inches of sand and the only other substrate i use is fss and its inurt too


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## ykh (Jul 21, 2006)

Have been breeding fish in bare bottom tanks for years. Started long time ago with rcs in bare bottom tanks. Currently have the following set up:

Bare bottom:
1) hawaiian red shrimps Opae ula
2) sulawesi cardinals 
3) sulawesi blue berries
4) OEBT + PFR
5) OEBT + pumpkin/sakura
6) CBS
7) K14
8) Red tiger
9) tangerine tiger

already shutdown bare bottom:
1) red rili
2) red cherries

substrate:
1) CRS in Fluorite substrate 20 gal 
2) Yellow neo in turface substrate 5 gal <--- forgot about this tank earlier

I would say bare bottom tanks have worked well for me, got lots of babies. I haven't got berried K14, red tigers and Opae ula though, working on them. 

Bare bottom tanks are so easy to clean. I do huge water changes to my shrimps tanks, 30-40% every week or so except the crs and sulawesi. 






speedie408 said:


> I'm glad to hear there are some folks who have been doing bare bottom and inactive substrates. Those who have, do you guys mind sharing your stories/experiences? How long you've been doing it that way? How successful as far as breeding goes? What type of shrimp, etc?


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## speedie408 (Jan 15, 2009)

Thanks for the info Kean.

Keep us posted on your progress with the other shrimp that you're still working on. 

How often do you do WC on your CRS bare bottom tanks? What methods are you using to match your water quality going in, during WC? Remineralization? RO? Temp match? Drip?


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## shrimpster (Jan 31, 2012)

I had cherries in a sand cap and gravel/flourite base lots of dw and no ugf. I changed 20% h20 every two weeks not even bothering to match water params. I had so many babies I got to where I didn't care how many I sucked up and flushed during h20 changes. 

I have the same line in an akadama tank (0kH, 3gH) now and they berry much heavier, but not as often. Coloration is enhanced since being placed in this tank (the culls are looking better than the "keepers" in the other tank). Baby survival rate seems low. I don't know if it could be the ugf or the low kH. I change 20% 1x/week and params are VERY stable.

I also have some from the same line in a tank with flourite onyx sand (4kH, 6gH). They are almost constantly saddled/berried and baby survival is very high. Coloration is also better than the sand tank, but not as good as the akadama. No ugf in this tank. I change 20% every 4 days as h20 parameters (gH, kH) keep climbing if I don't.


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

I have ecocomplete in four tanks, fluvial ss in one and fluorite in another. Tds is consistently around the 180 range to 220 with a wc beyond that. Definitely one huge variable with all our tanks is indeed the quality of our water source...

I have berried shrimp in the Eco complete
Sakura (berried) - Eco
Sakura (berried) / snow white crystals (berried) - Eco
CBS / CRS / orange neo /snow white crystal (berried) - Eco 
CRS / Red rilli (saddled) - FSS

Truth be told my general population seems juvie ATM however my crs ought to be of age but most of them are male, not by choice. I suppose I should name these tanks sausage factories...

Newest tank now with flourite will be used to housed super tigers hopefully...not all males

I haven't found Eco complete to buffer the water and also not ketch anything harmful as you might find in other soils. Ph is neutral and slight below after using the bw products. Supplements consist of calcium through clay mud used in koi ponds, fluvial mineral supplements after wc but that's about it really. There are small pieces of driftwood in each tank along with loads of plants


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## Alpha Pro Breeders (Jan 26, 2010)

ch3fb0yrdee said:


> Do you mind letting us know what you're using to remineralize the water and what shrimp species you keep?


 I use Salty Shrimps Bee-Shrimp Mineral GH+. It is very economical to use and does a great job for me.


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

I breed cherries in bare bottom without any issue. 

Are we considering Akadama active now? It seems like the breeder is using something very similar color wise too Double red line Akadama but a smaller grain in a few of his tanks.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

I used plain old Flourite black and think there's something to it, it contrasted well and shrimp seemed better than bare bottom tanks........

This is speculation, but sand.......has lots of surface area, and lots of bacteria and tiny inverts can hide in there........... and this is why the shrimp did better, but I have few ways of verifying this claim.


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