# Major die off after 40% water change + flourish excel double dose



## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Ouch! I'd check and see if there's been a sudden shift in water parameters for the public water supply, or if they changed the chemical treatment.

You mentioned double dosing with Excel. Have you been doing that regularly, and exactly how much did you use?

Did you violently stir up the substrate? The fact that there is any readable level of ammonia or nitrite means either that an excess of ammonia was suddenly released into the water column, or you had a mass die-off of beneficial bacteria. Or your test kit is screwey.


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## GeToChKn (Apr 15, 2011)

Yup, unless you tank is still cycling, you shouldn't have any ammonia or nitrites at all.


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## HolyAngel (Oct 18, 2010)

It's definitely that ammonia/nitrite reading, I'd get some prime in there stat or some other ammonia neutralizer and yeah, lots of water changes. Sorry to hear about your losses  I hope the rest make it.


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## AirstoND (Jun 17, 2011)

*Learning at Hard Knocks*

We've all been there, I would suggest a more heavily planted tank. Your catfish/loaches are also even more sensitive with high hardness.


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## keith1937 (Oct 14, 2010)

nesopheus

I have posted this in other forums it is very simple to fill in 


By filling in all or as much as you can, this will help us to get back to you with a helpful answer and this should help you in solving your problem.
Remember the longer the delay in getting a reply back the worse you problem will get

Tank size in Cm L W H


Filtration (brand name/model number & LPH) =
How do you clean the filter media, and how often =
What filter media is in the filter =
Do you have Carbon in the Filter =
How long has the Carbon been in Filter=
Do you wash & reuse the Carbon =
How often do you change the water =
What percentage do you change=
How do you do it =
Do you use a gravel siphon =
How do you dechlorinate the water = 
Do you store the water, Y or N? 
What chemicals/additives do you put in the tank, plant fertilizers, for water or diseases =
UV sterilizer (Yes/No & what wattage) =
Heater (what setting) =
Chiller (if applicable) =
Go to a good LFS and get a FULL water test done and post actual results. NOT OK 
Ammonia =
Nitrite =
Nitrate =
pH =
kH =
gH =
How long has the tank been running =
Was your tank cycled correctly = Y or N
Recent changes to your tank 
Inhabitants 
http://www.aqadvisor.com/
This will also help you reason being your fish might not be compatible or the tank is over loaded
Visible symptoms of your fish/s
Physical symptoms: 
What you feed and how often
Recent changes to your tank

Gravel (type i.e. standard inert gravel or plant substrate, or DIY) 
how deep gravel.

Driftwood, what type, and where did you get it, was it properly sanitized and treated 
Ornaments (what are they and how many) =
Plants (real / fake how many) =

a photo if possible: if you do not know how to post a photo say so

Keith


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## Bahugo (Apr 18, 2011)

Did you change out your filter media? I agree with checking with your local water source too see if something has changed lately.


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

Tank size L 183cm W 46cm H 53cm


Filtration (brand name/model number & LPH) = 2/Fluval 304
How do you clean the filter media, and how often =1 side every month (rinse or replace as needed)
What filter media is in the filter =foam, pre filter, clear max/ carbon/ peat pellets, bio max/ fine filter pad.
Do you have Carbon in the Filter =just in one side 
How long has the Carbon been in Filter=about 1.5 months old 
Do you wash & reuse the Carbon =rinsed once
How often do you change the water =30-40% Tank is 2 months old last change 2 weeks ago, more frequent previously.
What percentage do you change=30-40%
How do you do it =siphon 10 gallons the rest with garden hose.
Do you use a gravel siphon =large gravel syphon
How do you dechlorinate the water =Nutrafin Aqua Plus
Do you store the water, Y or N?n
What chemicals/additives do you put in the tank, plant fertilizers, for water or diseases =Nutrafin Tropical Extracts 20ml
UV sterilizer (Yes/No & what wattage) =n
Chiller (if applicable) =n/a
Go to a good LFS and get a FULL water test done and post actual results. NOT OK
Ammonia =less than 0.6 this morning
Nitrite =1.2mg/L
Nitrate =20mg/L
pH =6.8 steady
kH =30 mg/L
gH =50
How long has the tank been running =2.5 months water in, 1.5 months plants in, 1.25 months fish in.
Was your tank cycled correctly = no, did what I know to do, not been in communication with other aquarium keepers before, not sure on term.
Recent changes to your tank = tank is new all recent changes. moved a 30gal into the 120gal
Old Inhabitants 
15" Pleco
2 rope fish
3 cory
2 Kuhli loaches

New inhabitants
3 gold gouramis
4 dwarf gouramis
2 powder blue gouramis
3 cory
2 Kuhli loaches
2 oto cats
2 simensis
11 glass cats ( most recent 1 week)
http://www.aqadvisor.com/
This will also help you reason being your fish might not be compatible or the tank is over loaded
Visible symptoms of your fish/s
Physical symptoms: red veins on cory, no other warning.
What you feed and how often = shrimp pellets 6 bidaily, fat pinch tropical flake bi, sinking carnavore evening, blood worms lights out.
Recent changes to your tank, plant addition steady

Gravel (type i.e. standard inert gravel or plant substrate, or DIY)
how deep gravel.
1-2" pond soil
1-2" river and beach gravel + little beach sand rinsed

Driftwood, what type, and where did you get it, was it properly sanitized and treated = LFS bogwood, washed after removal from package.
Ornaments (what are they and how many) = local creek rock many
Plants (real / fake how many) = 
Red Wendtii, Ozelot sword, Echinodorus 'Vesuvius', Anubias nana, Glossostigma elatinoides, red dwarf lily, Green Cabomba, Cryptocoryne undulata, Echinodorus 'KLEINER BAR', Vallisneria Americana, +unidentified 4 NO FAKES, Blek.


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## Inkling (Feb 11, 2011)

nesopheus said:


> Was your tank cycled correctly = no, did what I know to do, not been in communication with other aquarium keepers before, not sure on term.


...And what is it exactly that you know to do? 

I noticed that your tank has only been up and running for two months. Did you add your fish gradually? Were you testing your water the whole time?


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## Optix (May 31, 2011)

sounds like tank wasnt cycled...especially with a soil based substrate ...they take longer to cycle for some reason

Amm. and nitrIte should be negligible before adding fish honestly...and fish should be added gradually


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

Soil and gravel sat in the tank for a month before I started adding plants. The plants were in for a week before I added the fish. I've had fish in the tank for 6 weeks, although I had a bunch of Petco dwarf gouramis die, my fish, and my params were stable. I monitor quite a lot untill I become confidant a tank is stable. Half my fish came from a 30gal low tech I ran for 8 years, the last 3 years without a fatality. I am not familiar with your meaning as to cycling but this is what I know.

Does excel posibly kill off biological filtrations microorganisms? should have eased into the excel a little slower.

"Of course the plants don't die anymore, but I cannot count the number of times I mistook the amount of water to add, or put in to much CO2 and awoke the next morning to find all the fishes floating dead at the surface. But my intuition grew."
Takashi Amano, _Nature Aquarium World _book one


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

When you say double dose of Excel, what exactly do you mean? How much was each individual dose of the Excel? 

Also when doing a "soil" substrate, you should let us know what is the exact soil you are using, because when using most "soil" based first layer then capped with the main substrate, it's common for the "soil" to actually leak out trace amounts of ammonia into the water. 

As for using Nutrifin dechlorinator, I recommend switching to Tetra AquaSafe, I only use AquaSafe for all of my tanks for the past 5 years and haven't lost a single fish. As for the high Nitrates, they are commonly caused by excessive feeding, as well as using certain substrate types.

I would recommend using an actual planted substrate, use SeaChem Flourite or FloraMax if you want least expensive, but if your not a "cheap skate" I would recommend using AQUARIUMPLANTS.com Amazon Based planted substrate. Then you can cap it with 1/2" of pool filter sand or regular aquarium gravel. I would also recommend either purchasing a nice quality co2 system (regulator, bubble counter, etc...) or again if money is not an issue checking into AQUARIUMPLANTS.com CarbonDoser Electronic co2 regulator. Or at least setting up a couple DIY (do-it-yourself) co2 system using the yeast method.

Also I would advise you to get a Rubber Maid container, like 15-30gallon available space. and then hook up an air pump with diffuser and then fill the rubber maid container with water that's treated with the Tetra AquaSafe dechlorinator and let the water sit with the air diffuser running for 2-3 weeks, this is a good way to age your water to use for water changes. 

Also instead of rinsing your carbon then putting it back into your filters, simply dump the old carbon into a separate container and refill your filters with new carbon. A secret most aquarist don't know, is that activated carbon can be reactivated by simply heating it up to 400*F for 30 minutes, however it only eliminates any organic compounds from it, but not any metal compounds.

I've been in this hobby for 20 years now, so hopefully my bit of advice works out for you.


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## keith1937 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thank you for answering all those questions it certainly helps.


> How do you clean the filter media, and how often =1 side every month (rinse or replace as needed


It should all be washed once a month using the old tank water.


> What filter media is in the filter =foam, pre filter, clear max/ carbon/ peat pellets, bio max/ fine filter pad.
> Do you have Carbon in the Filter =just in one side
> How long has the Carbon been in Filter=about 1.5 months old
> Do you wash & reuse the Carbon =rinsed once


Carbon is an excellent product for collecting chemicals in a tank. BUT and a huge but it not only collects them it also stores them and when its full it slowly releases a cocktail back into the tank.

It is perfect to use after medications then only for 2-3 days then its a TOSS OUT.

It is not necessary in a tank unless you have just finished using medications.

It also absorbs plant additives.


> How often do you change the water =30-40% Tank is 2 months old last change 2 weeks ago, more frequent previously.
> What percentage do you change=30-40%


Now we have several concerns here.

It looks like the tank is cycling and does not require a water change during that process unless using special plant media. Then a minimum of 30% weekly. 

I prefer to do 2 30% weekly.


> How do you do it =siphon 10 gallons the rest with garden hose.
> Do you use a gravel siphon =large gravel syphon


Because you are syphoning you are disturbing the good bacteria in the substrate while it is still Cycling.


> What chemicals/additives do you put in the tank, plant fertilizers, for water or diseases =Nutrafin Tropical Extracts 20ml


That should not be a problem But the carbon could be removing it.



> Ammonia =less than 0.6 this morning
> Nitrite =1.2mg/L
> Nitrate =20mg/L
> pH =6.8 steady
> ...


It is obviously still cycling

Nitrite should be "0"

Nitrate Should be below "10"

Have you run that program its most important?

If not or you have please post all the results.

I can see some problems there.

http://www.aqadvisor.com/

This will also help you reason being your fish might not be compatible or the tank is over loaded


> Visible symptoms of your fish/s
> Physical symptoms: red veins on cory, no other warning.


Warning signs of "Cycling"


> 1-2" pond soil 1-2" river and beach gravel + little beach sand rinsed


I hate to say it but what a mix who advised you to use all that.

In 45+years of fish keeping I have never heard or seen such a mix.

Sorry I would toss it all out and replace it with a good quality aquarium grade natural river stones 1-3mm at least 100mm deep this is best for healthy growing plants.


> Driftwood, what type, and where did you get it, was it properly sanitized and treated = LFS bogwood, washed after removal from package.
> Ornaments (what are they and how many) = local creek rock many


Creek rocks unless you know exactly what they are they could be causing problems, I did say 'Could"

Plants real that is excellent.

BUT with that substrate dont expect them all to grow.

I also notice you are not feeding them.

You are also not using a quality Bio-Starter like Seachem Stability.

For a beginner the Aquascape is excellent.

I can see many problems its the substrate depth and placement of a few plants because of what the could grow too if given the correct TLC

I think I have covered every thing, sorry if I seemed harsh but I would rather tell you the truth than sit back and not reply to you

Keith


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> When you say double dose of Excel, what exactly do you mean? How much was each individual dose of the Excel?


120ml for 120gallons, double the initial use dose.



xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> Also when doing a "soil" substrate, you should let us know what is the exact soil you are using, because when using most "soil" based first layer then capped with the main substrate, it's common for the "soil" to actually leak out trace amounts of ammonia into the water.


Soil is a pond soil purchased from Artknapp, I've used it on my two previous 30gal low tech tanks with no problem. I'll look into Tetra Aquasafe any seconds on this product? I do over feed on purpose as per the low tech philosophy exponsed by the "Ecology of the Planted Aquarium".





xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> I would recommend using an actual planted substrate, use SeaChem Flourite or FloraMax if you want least expensive, but if your not a "cheap skate" I would recommend using AQUARIUMPLANTS.com Amazon Based planted substrate.


 I have to smile at the "cheap skate" comment. Perhaps I am poor yet still an avid aquarist, or perhaps I am a focused parent who only diverts a small portion of my money to my personal pursuits. Thankyou for the list of great products, when I create my dream aquarium I'll look into them.
I have two ladders attached two yeast canisters, plant growth is fantastic in this aquarium.

Also I would advise you to get a Rubber Maid container, like 15-30gallon available space. and then hook up an air pump with diffuser and then fill the rubber maid container with water that's treated with the Tetra AquaSafe dechlorinator and let the water sit with the air diffuser running for 2-3 weeks, this is a good way to age your water to use for water changes. 



xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> Also instead of rinsing your carbon then putting it back into your filters, simply dump the old carbon into a separate container and refill your filters with new carbon. A secret most aquarist don't know, is that activated carbon can be reactivated by simply heating it up to 400*F for 30 minutes, however it only eliminates any organic compounds from it, but not any metal compounds.


Low tech aquariums don't need carbon. I used it while waiting for the aquarium to "cycle". Again I ran two 30 gallons for 3 years low tech no carbon with no fatalities. When I start up a High tech I'm sure I'll use carbon regularly.



xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx said:


> I've been in this hobby for 20 years now, so hopefully my bit of advice works out for you.


I really appretiate all the opinions and information available on these forums and from such a myriad of amazing aquarium hobbyists. I had my first tank in 1986, trial and error, books and books. The internet and these forums are new to me and I look forward to all the wisdom availible.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

Okay, a lot of info here. Take your pick, it could be a number of things. The one thing I strongly disagree with is regarding carbon. Remove your carbon media. It's useless for you unless you want to remove tannins or medications. It does no harm - at all - but takes up space that could be used for something useful.

Seriously, carbon will do nothing for you. Really. Nothing.

Regarding your problem ...well, my original thoughts haven't changed. Recheck my last post if you'd like. And if you're still not confident of anything at all, just keep testing until your ammonia and nitrites (not nitrAtes) are both zeroed out, and then add a handful of fish weekly. It'll be fine.

Oh, and re-read (and re-read again) the instructions on your Excel bottle. Many folks misinterpret the instructions for Excel, which is - no kidding - basically designed to kill every living organism it comes in contact with, given high enough doses. Again - seriously.


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## kevmo911 (Sep 24, 2010)

nesopheus said:


> 120ml for 120gallons, double the initial use dose.


Okay, we double-posted, so lemme go back to the last thing I just said - RE-READ YOUR EXCEL INSTRUCTIONS. Not your fault, we were writing at the same time. I just wanted to emphasize.

Whatever you do, based on whatever you've read, don't ever - EVER - add more than the "initial" dose that the bottle suggests.

You're the second person in the last several days who posted about a fish die-off following an Excel dose of 1mL/g. Do a search for Excel and Cories, and then decide whether or not it's coincidence.


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

"I have to smile at the "cheap skate" comment. Perhaps I am poor yet still an avid aquarist, or perhaps I am a focused parent who only diverts a small portion of my money to my personal pursuits. Thankyou for the list of great products, when I create my dream aquarium I'll look into them.
I have two ladders attached two yeast canisters, plant growth is fantastic in this aquarium."

Lol it's ok, I smiled too because sometime I go the cheaper route myself!!!


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

keith1937 said:


> Thank you for answering all those questions it certainly helps.
> 
> It should all be washed once a month using the old tank water.
> 
> ...


Most helpfull, thank you for a frank unpresumtious response. I failed to mention Ammonia, nitrites and nitrates were negligable two weeks previous to aquapocalypse. I have also been using NutrafinCycle. It seems that I rushed into my first big tank and experienced a re-cycle possibly made worse with flourish excel overdose. 

Taking another measurement on my substrate total 3" at front to 6" at the back. Gravel is probably on the large side but mixed with sand. I was going for a natural look, not sterile or uniform. Plant growth is excelent, never been better. I'll stick with my rocks and gravel for now, the tank is settling again.

Thank you every one. 

"I am only an egg"
Micheal Valentine Smith, _Stranger in a strange land_


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

kevmo911 said:


> Okay, we double-posted, so lemme go back to the last thing I just said - RE-READ YOUR EXCEL INSTRUCTIONS. Not your fault, we were writing at the same time. I just wanted to emphasize.
> 
> Whatever you do, based on whatever you've read, don't ever - EVER - add more than the "initial" dose that the bottle suggests.
> 
> You're the second person in the last several days who posted about a fish die-off following an Excel dose of 1mL/g. Do a search for Excel and Cories, and then decide whether or not it's coincidence.


Lesson learned, poor fish.


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

PH 6.8
Ammonia less than 0.6ppm
Nitrite less than 0.3mg/L
Nitrate 5mg/L

Lessons:
1) Over doses of flourish excel may kill your biological filters microorganisms.
2) Catfish are particularly sensitive to flourish excel.
3) Plecos grow too big and produce too much ammonia.
4) I need a better filter

Thank you for your advice. Seems as though I made it through a second cycle.


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## narhay (Feb 28, 2007)

Hello,

Where do you store the garden hose? They are sprayed inside with an antibacterial coating. If it's outside and water was stored in it since the previous use, the hot weather we've been having could have leached some of the chemicals inside garden hoses into the water that was sitting in it. 

Other than that, I don't see anything wrong other than ammonia and nitrite. You've been doing this a very long time like myself and you seem to know what you're doing.

By the way, cycle = time it takes for bacteria to grow to convert ammonia into nitrate.


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## nesopheus (Jul 3, 2011)

narhay said:


> Hello,
> 
> Where do you store the garden hose? They are sprayed inside with an antibacterial coating. If it's outside and water was stored in it since the previous use, the hot weather we've been having could have leached some of the chemicals inside garden hoses into the water that was sitting in it.
> 
> ...


Hmmm... garden hose no good, will look into better tool. Thank you, could have had something to do with it. Nitrate and ammonia was the assassins tool, maybe flourish excel the assassin. Live and learn.


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## art_t (Jun 8, 2008)

Do you have city water? I ask because when I first got into the hobby 8 years ago I did a 50% wc on my tank thinking how great it would be for the fish. I took 50% of the water out of the tank and I immediately replaced it with city tap water, but I didn't dechlorinate it first. I simply poured the water into the tank and then I poured the dechlorinator into the tank. What a HUGE mistake! EVERY single fish in the tank (tetras) immediately crashed to the bottom of the tank. 2 fish flipped over and dropped dead instantly. I mean they literally flipped over and floated to the top dead. I was in utter shock. I didn't know that I was supposed to pour the dechlorinator into the tap water while it was still in the bucket. I thought it was ok to replace the water into the tank first and then add the dechlorinator afterwards. Live and learn, but I nearly wiped out my entire tank. I still feel terrible about it to this day.


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## david meyers (Jul 15, 2011)

What are your thoughts on animal bone charcoal ? I've used it for 40 years as a friend of mine always said carbon was useless. I only have about 40# left from a 100# bag & don't see it for sale anywhere. Do you know if it's still available?


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## ormala (Feb 29, 2012)

@Keith: Thanks for sharing the list. I also think that it is a good idea and easy to fill in. Now I need a new chiller and I am not sure which one will fit my requirements best. I guess I am waiting until I find a cheap offer. Until this will happen some time in the future I will simply still use rental chillers in the mean time. This is the best option for bypassing the time until I will have my own new one.


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## Alyssa (Sep 16, 2011)

Carbon WILL remove some impurities in the water - that is precisely _why_ water filters use carbon to filter water.

Brita, Pure, Zero - they ALL use carbon as a major (and in some cases it's the ONLY thing they use really) part of their purification method. You can actually drill out a Brita filter and replace the carbon rather than buying new filters if you want to.

Not sure why folks in the aquarium hobby all a sudden came up with the idea that carbon doesn't do anything but remove tannins and meds (where IS that coming from anyway?). It also removes odors from water and also helps to polish the water.

Is it required? No. But it DOES do more than just remove color and meds. 

It "...will remove/reduce many volatile organic chemicals (VOC), pesticides and herbicides, as well as chlorine, benzene, trihalomethane (THM) compounds, radon, solvents and hundreds of other man-made chemicals found in tap water. Some activated carbon filters are moderately effective at removing some, but not all, heavy metals." 

I was lazy and grabbed the above blurb from here, but that is basically true. In fact other info on that page is of some interest to note in regard to carbon as well ... as it does also say what carbon filters will NOT remove as well, like inorganic contaminants/metals or sediment/particulate materials. http://www.home-water-purifiers-and-filters.com/carbon-water-filter.php

So it does purify water ... and it can play a role in having clear, polished, odor free water. Yes, there are now other options like purigen, however, charcoal is inexpensive, easy to use and will forever remain an option for those that chose to use it.


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## dindin (Mar 4, 2009)

Alyssa said:


> Not sure why folks in the aquarium hobby all a sudden came up with the idea that carbon doesn't do anything but remove tannins and meds (where IS that coming from anyway?). It also removes odors from water and also helps to polish the water.


And once an idea is grabbed onto in this hobby, we neeeeeever let it go!:bounce:


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## jsuereth (Dec 21, 2010)

My personal concern with activated carbon is making sure to change it frequently. It's a great purifier until you leave it in too long and all those things it was filtering reenter the tank in altered but still dangerous form.

Still, maybe running activated carbon for 2-3 days after a water change is a good idea....


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