# How cold is too cold - emersed setup



## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

The title says it all. I have a couple emersed setups in the garage that I would like to keep there due to space issues. With winter approaching I was wondering how low of a temperature the plants would be able to tolerate. Our house leaks some heat to the garage so it won't be as cold as the outside temp.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

In winter time I've had an emmersed setup thrive outside natural sunlight, its the heat and summer time that plants seem to dry up and don't do so well, in my experience. I didn't mist though, just ceran wrap over the tank to trap humidity


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

StrungOut said:


> In winter time I've had an emmersed setup thrive outside natural sunlight, its the heat and summer time that plants seem to dry up and don't do so well, in my experience. I didn't mist though, just ceran wrap over the tank to trap humidity


How cold does it get near you? There can be a big difference between a California winter and a Connecticut winter.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

When I lived in Sacramento California it got to 55 once for about 4 days in the winter. The rest of the time it was above that.


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

Sac gets colder than that.

It depends on the plants. The more tropical the plant origin the more sensitive they'd be to lower temps. Those from the southern US could see freezing temps though they may die back during the winter.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Googling a couple plants I have, some are from South America, Brazil, Argentina, etc. others are form southern India, so I'm assuming most are fairly tropical.

Still not sure what this means as far as temperature tolerances though. My garage may get into the 50s. What can I do to combat this and raise the temp in the bins?


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## acitydweller (Dec 28, 2011)

bear in mind the lights will provide a fair amount of heat.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

During the daytime yes, but at night they will get cold cold cold.

They might not die but they won't grow much if at all.

Depends on the species.

Why can't you keep them inside?

Have you thought about removing the humidity dome completely and growing them as house plants? It can be done if you convert them slowly enough.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Zapins said:


> During the daytime yes, but at night they will get cold cold cold.
> 
> They might not die but they won't grow much if at all.
> 
> ...


I could reverse the photoperiod so the lights are on at night. I'm not sure how much that would do though. I was thinking more like a heat source. 

Something like this:
Amazon.com: Zoo Med ReptiCare Ceramic Infrared Heat Emitter 100 Watts: Pet Supplies

I don't really have room for the bins in the house right now. I may talk to my girlfriend about keeping them in the back room of her basement if temperatures do become an issue. 

I haven't thought about them as house plants. I thought these types of plants needed high humidity to survive. Would this affect growth or anything at all?


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

You gotta be careful with those ceramic emitters they get really hot. I've melted more plastic strip lights and tank rims then I care to mention when using them for reptiles. You definitely should look at using some sort of thermostat or proportioner. Also need to run those with ceramic fixtures.

What containers are you using? There are other types of heaters for reptiles that could be used. Some are safe for plastic, others not. Heat tapes or heat mats might also be useful.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Pictures here:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=458337&highlight=

They are just plastic bins so I'm guessing the ceramic emitter may be an issue. I'll look into other heat sources tomorrow I guess.


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## Lornek8 (Jul 3, 2013)

For the ones nested in larger containers you could put a heater in the water to keep things warmer. There are also incandescent reptile bulbs that produce heat but no light. You could also swap the cfls for standard incandescent bulbs.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Axelrod12 said:


> How cold does it get near you? There can be a big difference between a California winter and a Connecticut winter.


I really do not know , and I don't think you have to worry about the cold at all, but put your main focus on lighting (too much not to burn out the plants), nutrients, and humidity, the species I kept when I had emmersed was
don't know the origins of these
lindernia india
sao paolo?(renamed?)
hygrophila sunset
limnophila aromatica
ludwigia senegalensis
rotala yao yai
others I don't know the names to
winter time:
these were grown in peat

before: 10/25/11








after: 11/5/11









syngonanthus I've never been able to grow emmersed, hot or cold

summertime as well I've had success, but plants weren't perfect like I had that setup, variables too like mr. aquasoil as substrate can't think of any other variables.

You should try it out before you get all technical trying to heat things.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

They do not need high humidity once they convert - you can keep them out in the open. I've got a friend who grows them outside in her vegetable patch in full sun all day long. They do need a wet soil layer and a decent light to grow well though. Keep the water level 1.5 to 2 inches below the soil level and you should be fine.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Lornek8 said:


> For the ones nested in larger containers you could put a heater in the water to keep things warmer. There are also incandescent reptile bulbs that produce heat but no light. You could also swap the cfls for standard incandescent bulbs.


I thought about the heaters in the water. Both bins should have enough room for a heater on its side below the water level. I wasn't sure what this would do for the air temp though and since the plants themselves are mostly above the dirt I didn't know if it would help them out. 

The only problem with heating through the bulbs is that the lights wouldn't be on 24 hours a day. If I do this I would probably run the lights overnight when it's colder though.



Zapins said:


> They do not need high humidity once they convert - you can keep them out in the open. I've got a friend who grows them outside in her vegetable patch in full sun all day long. They do need a wet soil layer and a decent light to grow well though. Keep the water level 1.5 to 2 inches below the soil level and you should be fine.


Interesting. Space may eventually be an issue with this method as well. I could probably move a few pots inside this way but I don't know where I'd put everything so it'd get good lighting.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Plants need darkness as well. 24/7 is not good for them.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Ok more on this. Temps have begun to drop here lately. They are predicting freezing temps overnight tonight so I went outside and measured the temp at 34F around 11pm. At the same time the temp of the bins was 61F. Garage temp was 60F. 

I'm taking this as meaning I need to start testing some of my options. About a week ago I transitioned the plants to a reversed photoperiod. The lights are on overnight now instead of during the day. I think I will need to insulate the bins regardless of how I attempt to heat them so I will try to find some insulation at Home Depot tomorrow.


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## E.Gilberti (Nov 5, 2013)

Have you considered using the stuff they use to insulate walls? Those are pretty cheap and they insulate well. You could also try aluminum foil if you wanted to be really cheap.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Axelrod12 said:


> The title says it all. I have a couple emersed setups in the garage that I would like to keep there due to space issues. With winter approaching I was wondering how low of a temperature the plants would be able to tolerate. Our house leaks some heat to the garage so it won't be as cold as the outside temp.


Hi Axelrod12,

I keep my emersed plants in the garage as well and our garage gets down into the mid to low 40's on cold nights in the winter. However I cheat, I use heat mats ( 6 total) controlled by a single thermostat under my emersed humidomes and tubs.


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## Da Plant Man (Apr 7, 2010)

Hey there!

I've had my plants get fairly cold, like some other posters mentioned, it depends on the species, but I've some plants are actually frost hardy. They won't grow at all, but they'll survive. Ludwigia repens and Ludwigia palustris both have survived frosts, along with Bacopa monnieri and Glosso. You may get some slight melting over time, but they recover easily enough. If you keep it above 50*f, you'll be fine.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

E.Gilberti said:


> Have you considered using the stuff they use to insulate walls? Those are pretty cheap and they insulate well. You could also try aluminum foil if you wanted to be really cheap.


Do you mean fiberglass insulation? The big fluffy stuff that looks like cotton candy but will destroy your insides if you try to eat it lol? I've done a lot of insulating and absolutely hate that stuff, while it could work I think I'm gonna look for some sort of thick aluminum insulation that won't make me all itchy. 



Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Axelrod12,
> 
> I keep my emersed plants in the garage as well and our garage gets down into the mid to low 40's on cold nights in the winter. However I cheat, I use heat mats ( 6 total) controlled by a single thermostat under my emersed humidomes and tubs.


Those heat mats are certainly interesting. I'm wonder how well they would heat the bins though. Resting under the bins they would be heating the water in the bins, no? In which case I could toss a spare tank heater in the water instead? 



Da Plant Man said:


> Hey there!
> 
> I've had my plants get fairly cold, like some other posters mentioned, it depends on the species, but I've some plants are actually frost hardy. They won't grow at all, but they'll survive. Ludwigia repens and Ludwigia palustris both have survived frosts, along with Bacopa monnieri and Glosso. You may get some slight melting over time, but they recover easily enough. If you keep it above 50*f, you'll be fine.


Some of what I have is very tropical and I don't think would survive a frost. I'm not sure that the garage will drop much below 50F on its own but I still want to try to do what I can to keep the bins warmer. I'd like the plants to not take any damage if not grow over the winter.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Axelrod12 said:


> Those heat mats are certainly interesting. I'm wonder how well they would heat the bins though. Resting under the bins they would be heating the water in the bins, no? In which case I could toss a spare tank heater in the water instead?


Hi Axelrod12,

Between the steel grate shelves and the heat mat I use bubblewrap sheets to insulate the bottom of the mat; that way most of the heat goes up to the humidomes / bins.

It a mild night tonight but I just walked out into the garage. The ambient room temperature is 60 degrees and the bins are 65 degrees which is where I have the thermostat set. The thermostat and the heat mats are currently not currently heating. I will try to remember tomorrow morning when it is cooler and check the readings.


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Axelrod12,
> 
> Between the steel grate shelves and the heat mat I use bubblewrap sheets to insulate the bottom of the mat; that way most of the heat goes up to the humidomes / bins.
> 
> It a mild night tonight but I just walked out into the garage. The ambient room temperature is 60 degrees and the bins are 65 degrees which is where I have the thermostat set. The thermostat and the heat mats are currently not currently heating. I will try to remember tomorrow morning when it is cooler and check the readings.


Cool, I'm still interested in this idea. I think my only concerns would be that the mats would heat the water and not effect the air in the bins enough or that I could accomplish the same thing as the mats with extra fish tank heaters I have laying around.

For now I've insulated the bins with a padded aluminum insulation that I got at Home Depot. The small roll was around $14.


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## sacelebv (May 11, 2013)

Did you consider Seedling/Germination Heat Mat


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## johnson18 (Apr 29, 2011)

I don't normally heat my house past 60/65 in the winter. I pay to cool the dang thing all summer why now pay for the warmth I wanted away!? I hadn't really thought about the emersed tanks dropping in temp too much. 
If you raised your water level, using the crates to lift the plant appropriately, then cranked a heater to keep the water warmer wouldn't the larger amount of water water help keep the air in the tank warmer? Seems like something that might could be considered if you weren't dealing with any of the extreme lows. If you've got extreme lows, I'm sorry but you live in the wrong climate. Consider a move south, I'm convinced that I'm too far north currently! Hahahaha


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## JoeandCarrie (Oct 26, 2012)

Its probably not an option this year, but a 55 works fantastic for overwintering plants. I keep one in the basement for the wife, it has the same lights your using x3 placed about 3ft away from the front angled down and towards the tank. I don't really heat my basement, but it stays in the upper 50's so I just have a simple powerhead and a little heater in the tank. I litteraly do nothing to that tank other than top if off with water once a month. The gold fish eat off the moss and ferns and the plants just kinda grow.

Just an idea that was shared with me years ago, thought I would pass it along.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Axelrod12,
> 
> Between the steel grate shelves and the heat mat I use bubblewrap sheets to insulate the bottom of the mat; that way most of the heat goes up to the humidomes / bins.
> 
> It a mild night tonight but I just walked out into the garage. The ambient room temperature is 60 degrees and the bins are 65 degrees which is where I have the thermostat set. The thermostat and the heat mats are currently not currently heating. I will try to remember tomorrow morning when it is cooler and check the readings.


Hi All,

Just an update on this thread. It is our coldest morning of the season in Seattle today. Our outside temperature is 25F; garage ambient temperature is 48F; my emersed plant set up with the heat/germination mats is 63F.

The best part of using heat mats with a thermostat verses a light as a heat source is I don't have to worry about overheating my containers nor deal with issues due to excessive light or lack of air circulation.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Any details on the heating mats? I haven't heard of them before.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Zapins,

Post #19 in this thread has the links to the mats and thermostat I am using. I use bubblewrap below the mats to insulate them from the steel shelving. The mats are waterproof so it isn't a problem when I spill water on them...they wipe off easily if I spill dirt or other stuff as well. I have one thermostat controlling controlling six (6) of the 17W mats.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi Zapins,

Seattle just had it's first 'cold snap' of the winter the last two nights with arctic air coming down from Canada. Yesterday morning the outside temperature was 12 degrees F; the garage temperature was 40 degrees, and the plants in the bins and humidomes were 63 degrees F. All the plants look fine, no sign of stress.....love those propagation mats!


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Good to know they work well. I'll pass on the info in the future if someone asks. Glad your tubs are doing well!


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## Axelrod12 (Jun 28, 2013)

I ended up going with the heating mat option in addition to the insulation. The lowest I've seen the bins so far is 55F and for the most part the plants seem fine. Some have slowed growth, some are still taking off. 

Tomorrow and tomorrow night will be the real test though, we're supposed to have what will most likely be the lowest temps this winter. A high of 14F and a low around 6F. I may take some extra precautions if I see the temps get too low. Maybe a heat dish plugged in nearby or something. The night will be tough though since I can't leave a heat dish plugged in unmonitored while I sleep.


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