# In-line water probes



## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I've seen a lot of posts where people are going to great lengths (and expense) make their tank into a "visual canvas" that highlights flora and fauna only. Bringing the eyes to the art in their tanks, not being distracted by the array of other things that are often needed to be successful with a planted tank, tubes, wires, lights...

I'll save the "out of tank" visual problem for another day, but I thought it might be worth sharing a couple of inexpensive and apparently reliable ways to get some junk out of the tank. In this case, building "T"s to accommodate pH and temperature probes, removing some of that clutter from a tank.

pH T pic 

To hide a pH probe, if it is the standard one that comes with the Milwaukee SMS 12x line, you can pick up a coupling that lets you put that in-line. For $7, covering both the part and shipping, I got a P8MC12 coupling from www.valin.com. Combine that with about $5 in PVC parts from Home Depot, and you've got an in-line probe. Here is a pic of the coupling and PVC before I screwed them together with a bit of Teflon tape, and inserted the pH probe into the coupling. I did add a bit of sealant around the joint where the probe goes into the coupling, just in case. It's sturdy, dry, and out of the tank!

temp T pic 

To get temp probe out I just got a cheap barbed "T", and stuck on a 2" piece of tubing on the non-straight through junction. Then I inserted my temperature probe in until it was just barely sticking into the straight thru flow section of the tube, and filled that part of the "T" with sealant. Water tight, sturdy, and goes right inline with good readings.

In both cases I put them on the tank outflow (I know, not good) but the resistance has got to be really low (no bends, no reduction in inner diameter) and I don't want to sample temp or pH after that water from the tank has gone though other in-line equipment (filter, CO2 reactor, heater).

With a little work, it gets a lot of junk out of the tank. :wink:


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## John P. (Apr 10, 2004)

That's a great idea. Unfortunately since I'm relocating my aquarium to the garage (!), I'll have to have another heater to augment the inline Hydor that I have. So much for aesthetics!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

John, that's a bummer. Especially since I remember all too well what the Hydor's cost!

I know that it interfers with the flow, but have you thought about a 2nd Hydor, running parallel with the first? Is that even done - parallel in flows out of the same canister filter?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Additional info to make this work*

No sooner than I posted, I realized that there are two additional bits of information that I left out that makes this in-line stuff workable...

First - extra in-line valves. I've got a shutoff valve before any equipment or sensors, and a shutoff after the last of it. Also, quick disconnects with shutoffs at the pump. That way, before pulling the pH probe out for calibrating, I shut off the pump, close the valve out of the tank, and disconnect the line from the pump. That way pulling the probe out of the "T" coupling only drains the line, not the tank!

Second - placement. Under the assumption that the non flow-thru part of either the temp or pH "T" can trap an air bubble, some consideration must be made. I figure it is either the water flowing parallel to the ground with the leg of the "T" hanging down, or mounting it so it can be momentarily rotated this way some time after any emptying and refilling of that line. I've done the former to make things simpler.

Sorry for the omission. That's what I get for trying to make something more simple that it really is! :icon_conf


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## eums (Sep 16, 2004)

If you really want to hide your heaters ( that you allready have) why not just use these ? 

http://marinedepot.com/md_viewItem.asp?idproduct=RB5153

they come in sizes that hold a 12" heater , a 22" heater and a 32" heater. the link is for the 22" as that will probly be what most people would need.

i am sure you could even use the small one for a probe but DIY would be cheaper.


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## audiotaylor (Apr 2, 2004)

Eums, thats a cool idea and everything, but it hardly seems worth the cost when a hydor is just 16.00 more. Besides, youd also have to get a heater for that unit. I bet that could be an interesting DIY project though. 
-David


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

eums - you've got an eheim 2028, one of the other major hearter hiding options I believe. How's that working out? I've got a bigger tank in my future, and the full raft of heater hiding options are under consideration - Hydor's, Rainbows, and Eheim Pro II Thermal's (possibly other heater canisters).

My only problem with the Hydor is that it's temp knob is kind of easy to turn - potentially leading to accidents. I did it this week while cleaning my hoses. Luckily in noticed the temperature spike rather quickly.


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## bshuff (Aug 24, 2004)

audiotaylor said:


> Eums, thats a cool idea and everything, but it hardly seems worth the cost when a hydor is just 16.00 more. Besides, youd also have to get a heater for that unit. I bet that could be an interesting DIY project though.
> -David


But if you already had a heater, it would be $16 cheaper.... Nice thing about that module is that if you had a problem with your heater, just throw the $20 heater away and slap in a new one, instead of throwing away a $50 hydor, same thing with the Eheim. I am a little biased, cause I have a lifegard system on my 120... I really like the lifegard system on big tanks. Some people say that you cant use that heater module unless you have a big pump, I don't really see that, the only module(s) that you need a pressure pump for is the mechanical and possibly the chemical (If it is full of stuff) but the heater module and UV are really free flowing units.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> figure it is either the water flowing parallel to the ground with the leg of the "T" hanging down,


Yeah, Milwaukee said that the probe cannot be used upside down. I was thinking of getting clear pvc to see whats going on air-wise (at Ryan Herco). How far are you sticking the probe? Just to the end of the cavity or all the way into the flow?



> Overflow pipe automatically vents air from chamber for safe operation.


The only thing I don't like about the rainbow module is that they use slip fittings that are really hard to find hose barb adapters for(insert).


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Can't be used upside down? Uh oh.

But it's been working for me upside down for months. Maybe I'm flirting with disaster?

The probe itself is inserted all the way into the coupling. So it's not possible to insert it in to extend beyond the bottom. When installed, that would be in the flow of the water itself. But it won't go that far. I screwed the coupling in as far as it will go into the T, and the probe as far as it would go into the coupling, and I'm going to guess and say it is 1/2" recessed from the main water flow - enough to not get in the way, but close enough to turbulence to be always taking a "fresh" water reading. I think.

What can I say? It works for me. But that "no upside down" thing has me wondering. Could that be because things can settle onto the probe?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Oh, and also...

The clear PVC sounds like a good idea for looking for bubbles, but keep in mind, the coupling is not clear, and the probe is in it. So even with clear PVC you might not see a bubble up in the coupling, with your probe tip sticking right into it.

And agreed on the rainbow slip joints - kinda put me off that solution too.


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## bshuff (Aug 24, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> The only thing I don't like about the rainbow module is that they use slip fittings that are really hard to find hose barb adapters for(insert).


Actually the modules that I purchased most recently came with both of the necessary slip to 3/4 FNPT adapters and a 3/4 close nipple in the box (From Drs F&S). If not I sourced the same functional part at Lowes/Home Depot for less than a dollar. The ones that came with the module were blue and the ones from the home center were white... I am sure you could find or adapt a 3/4 MNPT to whatever hose barb fitting you could realisticly need. Last week I pulled my UV and put on 90 degree 1/2 inch hose barbs and used it on my other tank with no problem.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well that settles it! Rainbow is in the running for heating my next tank. Thanks. But I will confirm that in-the-box presence of the extra connectors, because my HD's definately don't those.

In fact, before I bought my Hydor, I orderd 4 from Big Al's. I was planning on using them with possibly a Rainbow single heater unit, and definately for a DIY reactor. But either they shipped the wrong thing or I asked for the wrong thing. Probably the latter, but I wound up with something that I didn't need need, and took the easy way out with the Hydor.

But next time I'll dig harder to see what comes in the box!


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

This is what he told me,


> Hi Greg
> 
> Yes -- It needs to be pointing down because of the electrolyte solution in the bulb at the end of the probe
> 
> ...


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## bshuff (Aug 24, 2004)

The ones I got from Big Als about 2 months ago did not have them in the box.. The Drs is/was running a sale and it looks like their stock was rotated by the sale because they listed they were out of stock on several units last week. So maybe Pentair is putting them in the box now? 

My thoughts on a lifegard CO2 reactor: Use a chemical module and turn it into a CO2 reactor & chemical module using a replacement cap from a mechanical module. My primary leg is pump-mech-chem-heat with a DIY CO2 reactor on a bypass around an UV and FSB. My thinking is to put a hosebarb in the cap on top of the chemical module and inject my CO2 there. The water is making a 180 turn at that point and it also goes through a screen and over whatever chemical / inert media might be in there. After that it goes into the heater module that takes the water on another 180 turn and also has an air scavenging port, so I feel that it should be well disolved at that point. If not, all I am out is a $8 cap. If it does work, that is one less mass of PVC pipe under my tank, and less head loss from the DIY reactor therefore more flow with the same sized pump..


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown - sounds like you got if from a reliable source. I wonder why mine has been working. If there is solution in the probe, then maybe my probe happens to be so full that being upside down doesn't lower the liquid level to the point it doesn't work. Or maybe because in my paranoia, I've recalibrated it every month, just to see if it is stable (it seems to be). Maybe that movement somehow sloshes the solution enough to make it OK for another four weeks. If you talk the tech at Milwaukee again, ask him why one would work upside down - mine definitely does.

Bshuff - sounds like you are looking at a rainbow variant of the CO2 line into a canister filter. If it works, please post it, and how exactly you did it. It's clearly got a lot of potential advantages.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Hey IUnknown - I went back for a good look at the instructions for my SMS 122. It has a whole lot to say about the probe. They even gave me a special addendum type of insert in the instructions for information they forgot to put in the instructions about use of the probe. But none of it says "don't use it upside down".

I wonder if your tech support guy might be a newbie. Sound's like a pretty important operational parameter to be leaving out.


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## eums (Sep 16, 2004)

to me i would get the one i linked to . i have a temp controler and it turns on and off the heater for me, it has a LCD that displays the tank temp. so i don't have to monitor the tank temp, just look at the controler.

it was like $70 though. it sounds like alot but i don't have to worry about bumping a heater or one failing "ON" and my tank going to 95+ and all the fish die. 

The temp controler works off of a relay, so if it fails it fails OFF not ON. I also hear the heater cycle on and off by the relay clicking so i know when its doing something. 

but i also have a reef tank so i don't like having a chance of things going wrong. i even have a 1/5 HP chiller if i need it for my planted tank.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Scolley,
In your picture, the black part is the P8MC12, right? Are you using 5/8" eheim tubing(16/22mm)? Just want to make sure I am getting the right sizes. Are you using the 1/2" or 3/4" hose barb (insert fitting for the soft tubing)?

I emailed tech support to get an explanation. I think your right though.

I've been trying to think out the placement issue. On the intake you have to deal with crud getting on the probe. On the outtake maybe the pH is dropping through the canister from turbulence. Should the probe go before or after the Co2 reactor? I would say before the hydor, so you don't have temp interference. Maybe after the Co2 reactor, changes in bubble rate directly show up on the probe.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

> The temp controler works off of a relay, so if it fails it fails OFF not ON


That's the way to go! I've wondered about controllers, assuming that they posed another single point of failure that could fail ON. But it sounds like not, and a really great precaution if you can affort it. Same goes for the chiller, would love one, but the cost... wow. Kind of tough to justify in New England where we get maybe 10 days a year when you wish you had one, and only for a few of the hottest hours on those days.

But now you've got me reevaluating the concept of a temp controller. That too, must pose a quandry though - one more piece of equiptment hanging into the tank, that might look better put in-line some how.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> In both cases I put them on the tank outflow (I know, not good) but the resistance has got to be really low (no bends, no reduction in inner diameter) and I don't want to sample temp or pH after that water from the tank has gone though other in-line equipment (filter, CO2 reactor, heater).


tank outflow = intake of canister correct? Just want to double check where you have the probe installed.

Now I found T's that have FPT threads on all three sides, which would eliminate the slip adapters, and the hose barb adapters would screw in directly to the T. I was wondering if the turbulence would cause problems with such a short distance. Did you put the extra fitting on purpose? What do you think?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

DIY temp Controller,
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=462229


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Hmmm,

"Greg, I have talked to my engineers and a pH 
probe will not work properly with the probe pointing up. Max rotation would be horizontal but the preferred angle to work from is vertical because of the electrolyte in the bulb.

Sorry
Bryan "


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnkown - Yes, the black part is the P8MC12. I should have taken a better picture. And no, I'm using Eheim 12/16, so I'm using a 1/2 hose barb. So you'll need the PVC, and its barbs, to be what eve size makes sense for you.

But the P8MC12 was a 3/4" threaded coupling. They had another model that was a 1/2", but given that the probe itself has a 1/2" outside diameter, that just made no sense to me. So I sized up with to the 3/4" thread to join to the PVC, with 1/2" compression fitting for the probe.

I don't get crud on mine, not yet anyway. Maybe that is because it is slightly set off from the real turbulence. Don't know.

As for placement, I've got more crud beyond the CO2 reactor, where the water is so CO2 rich. Also you've got CO2 dissolved in a potentially higher rate after reactor. I've been afraid that would create a bad pH reading. So I'd place it before the reactor.

And I'd also put it before the Hydor, just because I don't know how hot that water gets coming directly out of that thing.

So where? Maybe the best place is right after the filter, but before any other equipment. Maybe I should move mine.


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## bshuff (Aug 24, 2004)

There is 2 ways to look at it pH probe location. 

The idea that I would most want to go with is that you want to measure the influent to the reactor. That way you are controlling the actual pH of the tank. In this situation you really don't care what the pH of the effluent is, you are relying on the controller to sense when enough CO2 is added to reach your target and shut it off. 

If you put it on the effluent of the reactor, You would be controlling the pH of the reactor effluent and not necessaraly the tank. I guess it depends on how efficent your reactor is, but assuming 100% efficent with a high BPM, the pH at the effluent of the reactor would be the absolute lowest of any point in the tank. In this situation the controller is controling the pH of the water that you are adding to the tank, and not necessaraly the tank itself, and you are expecting the tank to equal out at that value. I would think that your solenoid would cycle more often and your tank pH could have a larger swing. 

I guess think about it as a color sensor, you want your water to be red. Your controller & reactor is adding red dye instead of CO2. If your sensor is on the outlet of the reactor, the water is clear so it adds some dye, and the sensor thinks the tank is the color it needs to be because the dye has not fully mixed to the entire tank, but at that localized location it is so it shuts off. When the coloring dilutes & fully mixes with the tank, the water passing over the sensor senses that you want it darker, so it cycles again, untill it is the color that you want. So you are adding a lot of small doses to reach your final goal. If the probe was on the inlet to that dye reactor, it would keep the dye valve open untill the water passing over the probe was the correct color. In this method, it is possible that you would end up too dark if the water did not mix well. So I guess there are drawbacks to each method. 

But at the rate that you should be adding CO2 to the tank, I am not sure if it really matters.....


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown - multiple postings to respond to here...



> Did you put the extra fitting on purpose?


No, I could only get threaded barbed adapters, and the T was slip, so I had to toss in a bit of extra hardware, unwanted extra lenght.



> Max rotation would be horizontal but the preferred angle to work from is vertical because of the electrolyte in the bulb.


Wow. I guess I'm just lucky, and need to schedule a change in the probes positons. I'll go with a horizontal probe, so I don't have bubble problem. Should also. Maybe I'll move it to the first postion after the outflow of my filter at the same time.

And going to give a good look at that controller. Thanks! Too bad I'm not a reef central memeber - can't see the pictures.

Bshuff...


> If the probe was on the inlet to that dye reactor, it would keep the dye valve open untill the water passing over the probe was the correct color. In this method, it is possible that you would end up too dark if the water did not mix well.


I think you've made a great case for the problems of putting it on the outflow of your CO2 reactor. But as for the problem of putting it before the reactor, for me, I think that depends on where you would have put the probe in the tank. If you putting the probe by right by the inflow, I think you'll minimize the swings you mentioned. But if you have the probe right by the tank outflow, as I did, I'm not sure putting it before the reactor is a whole lot differnt, maybe 3 seconds travel time. What do you think?


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## eums (Sep 16, 2004)

the temp probes are easy to hide. they are small. 

the one i have, a rancho single stage controler has a 0.1" thick wire going to the probe thats about 0.2" wide and a little over 2" long . the probe is black and coverd with a little growth , in a planted tank you really do not notice it. 

but you could hide it easly in a DIY type of thing. it really is small. no where close to the size of a PH controler. i can take a pic of the sensor part and the unit if any one wants to see it.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Got the parts to put my probe in line,









If you have a hard time finding the parts you can order from http://www.ryanherco.com/

These are for the Eheim 5/8" tubing
0660-068 Parker Fast & Tite male connector (1/2" tube O.D., 3/4" MPT)
1436-101 Reducing insert male adapter (3/4" x 1/2") x 2
3405-007 PVC Tee (3/4" FPT)

For 1/2" tubing I think its the
0702-220 Reducing insert male adapter (3/4" x 3/8") x 2


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

Scolley,
I had a question. Does your probe only go so far in that Parker Fast & Tite fitting? I was thinking about getting a 1/2" drill later to get it in farther. What do you think?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown - Dude! You are ahead of the curve now! You are asking questions of a newbie, and what a great risk that poses!

So that said... Your first lovely picture on the blue towel shows exactly what I've had running in-line for a few months. The difference is, as noted previously in this thread, is that you have obviously sourced a "t" with threaded couplings that did not have the excess hardware I had, not being able to easily source the non-slip connections. Congrats.

At the end of the day, that means you were able to do it the way is should be done, with out the extra hoo-hah I had on mine!

But your question about the distance into the fitting is a GOOD one. If we forget, for a moment, about the orientation question, we still have to ask - how far should it (the probe) go in?...

As a case in point, I'll offer my own experience. I'm new to this, and green spot alga is a constant source of irritation for me. And as far as ferts go, that means I'm probably providing too much of something. But what about in my inflow/outflow tubing? Well, as U can imagine, I've got some cruddy green Ehiem tubes - filled with gunk. But I've been running an in-line DIY "T" with my pH probe in it for almost 3 months. And it is not filled with gunk. Why? I can only guess that it's because the probe is a bit away from the main, rapid, flow of water in my tubes. But I'm a newbie, and that's just conjecture.

I'm wide open, and thrilled to hear from opinions more advanced in this mysterious pursuit! Please anyone of experience fill in the blanks here…


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

haha, you improve my tank, I'll try to improve what you've started. Although it sounds like what you've got going is working. What about your Fast and Tight fitting? I ended up drilling the center part 1/2" to allow the probe to slide farther into the TEE. Did they give me the wrong part, or have you been using it with the probe pushed in half way?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I don't think you've got the wrong part. Or at least it is that same part I'm using. Which BTW I searched for after finding a vendor selling the same part, for this exact purpose, but for a whole lot more.

I've got mine probe inserted into the fitting, but as you describe - without drilling a hole, it does not go into the junction of the T. So it is not directly in the flow of water. Maybe that's why I don't have a crud build-up problem.

But this weekend I'm gonna have to turn that thing over...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I've got the clear T on order, so maybe we can kinda see whats going on with the air gaps.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Can't wait to hear what mysteries that will reveal!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Update - after turning T over*

My T had been upside-down, as IUnknown states the manufacturer says. Though that fixed any concerns with bubbles in the T, I turned it over a few weeks ago. Everything was fine, until earlier this week when I did a lot of work on my tank (big problem, different thread), and introduced some air in the line.

My pH started falling slowly, beyond where the controller was set to take it. A check with 2 different test kits confirmed that I was getting an incorrect reading.

I pulled the probe out of the T, and it was dry. Air had gotten into the T. It is worth noting that I have not drilled out the Fast and Tight fitting because I hoped that by being recessed, I would reduce the crud buildup from being in the flow. It was still clean.

So after doing a calibration (barely off, less than 0.1) I reinserted it, and added some vasaline to the o-ring, just in case. And I also put an additional shut-off valve next to it, so now I have a shutoff on either side of the T. This helped "burp" the fitting. 

With both valves closed I inserted the probe, but did not screw it down tight, so the seal was loose. Then let some water through the return side, using the valve, until a bit of water came up thru the probe fitting. Tightened the fitting, opened both valves, and turned on the canister filter. Then with the water running through the line, performed the same operation again, and seemed to get a bit more air.

The probe seems to be reading correctly now - so it appears to remain wet. But I am concerned about what this implies for what happens when air gets in the line, with the T positioned so that the probe points down like this.

Maybe an airline fitting, somewhere on the fitting, with a check valve might help let out air? Thoughts anyone?


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> I've got the clear T on order, so maybe we can kinda see whats going on with the air gaps.


Any updates? Did you manage to find a threaded tee, or one with slip fittings? I'm thinking about running a vent line from the top of the tee to the inlet of my booster pump to vent off any gas accumulation, but haven't worked out the details yet..


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I got a slip fitting, I just need to join the parts together and see how it looks. Hopefully this weekend or the next.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I'm about to order a new slip fitting and start over. I've got an Eheim Ecco that every time you prime the filter; it gets air into the outflow line somehow. And that's where the probe is. And every time air gets into it, now that it is no longer "upside down". So I have to "burp" it to get air out several times, including the next day. And it's easy to see that it needs burping, because the pH readings are unnaturally low. But as soon as I burp the air - BAM - right back to the reading I would have expected.

Bottom line - turning it over is getting air in the line periodically, it takes time and effort to get it out, and it messes up my readings for a day or so.

So I figure there are three options...

1) Drill into the fitting so that the probe tip sit further in - as done by IUnknown - right in the water flow. But the downside of that might be the accumulation of the same gunk in the rest of my tubes that the probe has avoided so far. Maybe - maybe not.

2) Create some sort of bleeder valve, like with a check valve. But such a thing would have to be drilled right into the fitting, which looks tough to do right. 

3) Create a tube intended to be mounted vertically, and hopefully bubbles flowing that way too (currently my main tube is horizontal, with a vertical probe). In my current T shaped setup that would imply a horizontal probe and fitting. But that's what I want to change. I want to swap the T, for a Y shaped fitting, where one leg of the Y is straight with one leg going off at a 45 degree angle. If mounted vertically, that probe and fitting would be mounted off at the angle, with the primary water (and bubble) flow going straight through on the vertical. Hopefully the probe pointed down at a 45 degree angle would satisfy Milwaukee's operational requirements.

I don't know if that makes sense. But it seems like it's worth trying. My current setup is sub-optimal.


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## Silent Running (Sep 13, 2004)

Great thread - very informative. Scolley, were you able to locate a Y fitting to suit your needs? I'm thinking of doing something similar with mine and a Y would work well with my current plumbing config.

Also, as far as the P8MC12 connector is concerned, I'm assuming you got the inert polypropylene instead of the nylon?


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

Wye fittings in the harder to find smaller sizes can be had at http://www.customaquatic.com/customaquatic/categorypage.asp?catID=PF along with a lot of other handy pipe fittings. The wyes are only available as slip fittings, unfortunately.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Zapus - thanks for the link. As soon as Christmas is over, I'm going to turn my attention back to this, and the link will come in handy.  

Good point about the slip fittings though. I've found some schedule 40 slip fittings locally, in the Y configuration. But I've not bought them as the end product would be huge. I'd really like this to be small. No reason for it to be otherwise if I can find the right parts.

Silent Running - thanks for the cudos. Eventually this will get squared away, and hopefully be useful to people. But for the moment, it's an unfinished story. Good question on the P8MC12. I have no idea what material I bought. Is there something wrong with nylon?

As I've mulled over my lack of time to get the pieces (due to holiday priorities), I've been reflecting on IUnknown's solution. Since he drilled his fast and tight, he can get the probe into the water flow, and way from any bubble problems. My reticence to follow that path is just becuase of my observed lack of gunk build-up on the probe. But if you've got to take it out to recalibrate every month or two anyway, you could just clean it then too.

So maybe I'm going down this Y path for nothing. Thoughts anyone?


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## Silent Running (Sep 13, 2004)

Is it just me, or is the Valin website really hard to order from? I keep selecting the item but have no idea how to proceed to checkout?!?!?!?

Also, in looking further into it, it looks like the p8mc12 part is the black poly rather than the nylon. I don't know enough to know which is better...


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

You might want to call them, but I thought the poly was resistant to the corrosiveness of Co2.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

OK. Christmas is over and I'm back on the case! Not to mention the fact that the probe, in it's "right-side" up configuration is driving me crazy!

As I pondered the problem, I realized that if, IF, IUnknown's tech at Milwaukee was wrong, all this orientation hoo-haa was a waste of time. Or maybe Milwaukee makes an inferior probe...

So I called the techs at aquatico.com, who have an awesome high-tech, cost is no object catalog to talk about the "in-line/submersible pH electrodes" they sell for $162. Seems all the documentation shows it installed in the same orientation Milwaukee wants. But no written requirement to do so.

Then I called Brian at Milwaukee. Really nice, intelligent gentleman BTW. He told me all the same stuff he told IUnknown, but in LOTS of detail. (_I didn't doubt you IUnknown, I was just hoping Brian was wrong._) And he had a really good story. If I got it right, in a nutshell...

1) Most probes last about 18 months. Using one continuously will drive that down to about 12.

2) The electrolyte in them gets consumed and it manifests itself in two ways. When it's gone, you'll get bad readings. But when it's just depleted of some kind of ion (?), yet with some electrolyte liquid remaining ,you'll find the meter moves slowly. He recommended sticking it in some Coke when you recalibrate it. If it takes more than a few seconds to get down in the 2 range, it's a probe on the way out.

3) Just as IUnknown said, the liquid must stay down at the bulb. Mine worked for months in the wrong position because there was plenty of liquid. But soon it was going to stop working at all. Wow. Proper orientation will greatly extend the life because as the liquid is expended, it remains down in the wires in the bulb.

So, that was just an excercise in confirming that I've got to deal with the orientation hoo-haa. But knowing 12 months, and the Coke tip were worth the time spent. roud:


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## Silent Running (Sep 13, 2004)

So, can you replace just the probe after 12 months? Thanks for the info!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Yeah, but if you want to potentially save yourself some money, instead of replacing it at 12 months, start sticking it in some Coke. And don't replace it until it is really slow! But you would have to check with some regularity, 'cuz at 12 months it would appear that the clock it ticking. :wink:


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I installed the probe today. The in-line probe module doesn't purge the air by itself, I had to twist the probe upside down until all the air escaped. This isn't to big of a deal with the way I have my filter setup. I have the filter and solenoid and heater all on one power strip. When I do water changes, I just turn that power strip on, and it pauses everything until I am done with the maintenance. This lets me empty the tank completely without having to prime the canister filter. With quick disconnect valves at both sides, I can keep from air getting into the module. The biggest thing I was worried about, was air entering from turbulence of the fittings. If air getting into the module is really a concern for you, you can purchase the module below for $40, which purges the air automatically.

I will keep everyone updated on how often I have to clean the probe and how having it in-line effects the readings.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown - the new unit looks cool roud: Is the idea here to be clear in the middle to know that the air is purged? Does it work?

The diagram at the bottom looks like a Rainbow Lifegard heater module. If so, does it take a 1/2" tube? I thought the required something like 1 inch.

But either way, it's a moot point. I've decided that this weekend I'm going to do what you've done, and drill out my fast and tight to get the probe down into the flow. Any of my concerns about gunk can be wiped away when I recalibrate every 30 or 45 days.

I think it will remove my air problem, because when it does get in I'll wager it gets caught in the upper branch of the inverted T, not in the main body of the piece. Maybe your observations with the transparent piece will confirm that.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I drilled out the Fast and Tight, and reinstalled everything. Though it will not be scientific, I've had enough experience with the bubble problems caused by not inserting the probe in far enough to report whether this fixes the problem for me.

If IUnknown reports his bubble observations, aparently allowed by the clear fitting, we'll have another good data point.

Will report back over the next few weeks. My problems prior to today, with the probe in the "proper upright postions", were frequent enough that I should be able to report back soon. Either it's fixed, or I've still got problems.


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

So far so good. I haven't had any problems with air getting near the probe.



> The diagram at the bottom looks like a Rainbow Lifegard heater module. If so, does it take a 1/2" tube? I thought the required something like 1 inch.


The lifegard module has slip to barb reducers that connect to 1/2" tubing.


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

he's saying the heater slot has to be 1 inch which is true.. it wont' work with a probe because it's too small


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> Compression coupling allows easy installation and removal of heater. Accepts l” or 3/4”diameter aquarium heater.


http://www.pentairaquatics.com/products/detail/module_heater.html

The Milwaukee probes are 3/4".


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

The MA 911 probe that came with my Milwalkee is smaller than 3/4". Eyeballing it against a ruler, I would say that the yellow section is 1/2" and the black top maybe 5/8".


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Agreeed. My Milwaukee probe is pretty much 1/2" in diameter, except the black top, as noted by zapus. So needless to say, the opening in my fast and tight is 1/2" also.

So yes, that is the question - as noted by fishboy, whether the lifgard compression fitting would work with something as small as 1/2". Sounds like it wouldn't. Too bad though, if you had the $40 or so to drop on it, it could be a good solution.


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

Well even if it does work(which i doubt) i'd much rather have a 1 inchpeice of yellow in my tank than loss 40 bucks for somethign so unimportant


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Fishboy - can understand $40, but what about $12 and a little DIY labor? That's what I've got invested to this point. If you don't care about stuff in your tank, stuff that can certainly be hidden, then that's understandable. But for $12 bucks, I'm happy to get it out.

(Small disclaimer here - it's only $12 because I already had a bit of extra sched 40 pipe, pvc sealant, and some teflon tape. If you don't have that laying around, it's another $10 or $15)


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## fishyboy (Nov 16, 2003)

for aroudn 10 bucks i could see bu closer to 50's another story.. mine only sticks in 1 inch because i have it ona suction cup behind my filstar piping


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I just got a call-back from tech support at aquaticeco.com, regarding the use of the Oakton pH probes they sell. Oakton does not document this (neither does Milwaukee), but like Milwaukee, they maintain that their pH probes must be pointed down to work. Doing otherwise can prevent the internal fluid from being in proper contact with the internal electrical contacts in the tip.

I suppose one could assume that anything past the horizontal would suffice, but the company line, from both companies, is "down". With multiple consistent data points now, I believe this question is probably closed.

So for the record - _though your manual probably says nothing about this_, but *your pH probe must point down to work*.


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## zapus (May 26, 2004)

scolley said:


> But either way, it's a moot point. I've decided that this weekend I'm going to do what you've done, and drill out my fast and tight to get the probe down into the flow. Any of my concerns about gunk can be wiped away when I recalibrate every 30 or 45 days.


Sounds like it may be worthwhile to install isolation valves on either side of the tee to facilitate the recalibration procedure. Any thoughts? I finally got my floor reinforced and leveled and am trying to get the plumbing as close to right as possible on the first try. Is drilling out the Fast and Tite the way to go?


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Zapus,

I'm a bit distracted at the moment (Friday nite!) and will post full details tomorrow... but YES. IMHO you should drill it out. It's not perfect, but it is proving to be most defiantly better drilled than not.

More tomorrow...


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> So far so good. I haven't had any problems with air getting near the probe.


Since I drilled out my fast and tight last week, I have had air near the probe. I can't see it, but I can hear it - gurgling sound in the probe housing. I wish I know why you are not getting this problem, and I am...

It happens when I get any air in my tank plumbing. It happened yesterday when I did a 50% water change with my filter running. Just as it hit the 50% mark, the water level hit the hole of my intake tube (love those lillies IUnknown!) and I was sucking air into the tubes. That air gets trapped in the fast and tight.

But the good news is, it hasn't been a problem! Not with the fast and tight drilled out, and the probe inserted far enough to stick into the water flow.

I know this because in the past, with the probe higher up, and dried out by the trapped air, after I let the air out, my pH reading would shoot up by 0.1 or even 0.2. I've gotten air trapped twice this week (from messing with the tank) and each time I've left it alone for a few hours, then bled the air. There was no change in my pH reading. I believe the probe was not drying out.

Obviously this needs a bit of long term observation. And it is annoying that I've got to burp the fast and tight if air gets in the water line. But still worth it IMO to get equipment out of the tank. roud:


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> Sounds like it may be worthwhile to install isolation valves on either side of the tee to facilitate the recalibration procedure.


Thats what I did.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

IUnknown said:


> Thats what I did.


Same here. But due to the lack of space behind my stand, I'm not able to put the valve right by the probe housing unit.

I wish there was some way to make this whole thing smaller. Mine's longer than it needs to be. IUnknown you've shown that getting the right parts together cuts a few inches of the length of the probe unit. But when you add an upstream valve to it, the total length of hardware to do this is not insignificant. Not as bad as a CO2 reactor. But in a limited space setup like mine, it's an issue.

I'd take a pic and show everyone if I could, but it's so tight and jumbled behind that 20g stand, you wouldn't be able to know what you were looking at. :icon_roll


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Little follow-up here, since I've had a few water changes since I drilled out my "fast-n-tight" to insert the probe further into the flow, and out of that bubble trap in the top...

No new problems. No issues with use, though if I get air into my hoses, I still have to "burp" the fitting a time or two. But with the probe inserted deeper, this shouldn't be required, just a precaution.

And last week, I did a precautionary probe calibration, but no adjustment was needed. Right on the button. roud: 

This might work after all!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Just an update...

It's still working like a charm! But I stumbled on what may be a better fitting. Take a look here!


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

*Another update...*

I'm building a tank, and the plumbing has already got the new type of fitting from my last post built in.

I'll let you know how it does once I get it running.


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

Well, here's a major update for anyone that reads this thread...

You GOTTA make sure the probe is not subjected to gunk getting wedged into it by the water flow. Depending on your application, that could mean putting your in-line apparatus after the filter. Or it could mean making a housing that allows you to pull the probe back out of the main flow of the water.

I did the latter, but apparently a few months ago when I reinserted the probe, I pushed it in too far. Well somewhere along the line some garbage got sucked into the line and wedged in the probe tip.

The result was a pH reading that was 0.4 too low, and pulling my hair out over algae when I mistakenly thought I had my CO2 cranked up. Bad mistake.

So what's the moral of this story? If you decide to use an in-line pH probe, make SURE it is not subjected to stuff getting wedged in the tip. And check it regularly.


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

Any more news on the inline probe. What did you decide to use?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I've been running mine for awhile. Need to clean it off every two months or so. Works great,


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

IUnknown said:


> I've been running mine for awhile. Need to clean it off every two months or so. Works great,


Looks good.. What do you think of the Milwaukee controller, how does it compare to the pinpoint. 

PS I sent you a PM


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

On a side note/question... where is that small line off the T going?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

I had the pinpoint but had issues with electronic interference and the pH readings. I've heard that they might have fixed the problem, but I am now a loyal Milwaukee controller fan. I had problems with the Milwaukee controller and they sent me out a new one, for free. 

The tee is for my automated micro dosing. I've got some chemical stirring magnets coming in the mail. I'm going to play around with using computer fans to stir the fertilizer this weekend.

Eventually I'll get another pump for macros, then one day automated water changes maybe? All that would be left is trimming the plants once and awhile,  .


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

IUnknown said:


> The tee is for my automated micro dosing. I've got some chemical stirring magnets coming in the mail. I'm going to play around with using computer fans to stir the fertilizer this weekend.


I am not sure I understand. Any info that I can read about this?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/d...dosing-topoff.html?highlight=automated+dosing


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## brasstetra (Sep 14, 2006)

IUnknown said:


> The tee is for my automated micro dosing. I've got some chemical stirring magnets coming in the mail. I'm going to play around with using computer fans to stir the fertilizer this weekend.
> 
> .


So the dosing line is set up inline with your return. It appears you are using
1. a dosing pump
2. a check valve
3. a drip emitter
4. and a T where this is conected to the return

Is this correct? I am still not clear on your comment about a fan mixing your ferts. How does that work?


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## IUnknown (Feb 5, 2003)

> 3. a drip emitter


That is actually a reducing fitting. I tried the Computer fan to turn a magnetic stirrer thing this weekend and didn't get it to work. I did find an air operated magnetic stirrer (use your airpumps) for $32 that could be used to stir the fertilizers up.

Bel-Art   The Scienceware&REG; Company - Air Operated Turbine Magnetic Stirrer


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## scolley (Apr 4, 2004)

I've found that I've started to adjust how I deal with my in-line probe. I used to try to take it out every month or so and calibrate the probe with 7.01 solution. I found that doing that was such a PITA, that I didn't do it often enough. So I got one of those $25 Milwaukee hand held pH probes for my solution to this problem.

Now, every week (or two) I calibrate the handheld to the 7.01, then test the water. If my handheld reading doesn't match the SMS 122 (with in-line probe), I adjust the SMS 122 until it does. This way I don't have to pull the probe anymore!


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