# Yuji LED Aquarium Light



## Aquatic Delight (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm always interested in new lights. But my question is would there be a smaller watt option, and do you get same quality of light across the entire spread.

After re-reading, I notice you stated iPhone app, so would I be SOL with my android? 

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks.. that is a lot of interesting data but needs a bit of clarification..
Raw chip refers to no phosphors correct?
The loss of light output is due to lens degradation from the violet pump (or heat)?
What about spectrum shifts?
WHat was the drive current and is degradation influenced by it?
Violet anything in LED has issues but mostly related to lens blackning due to UV but that is generally a solveable problem. 

I had a similar though less in-depth talk w/ a tech at Sorra who commented the trick was finding a stable blue emitting phosphor.
Sorra uses a GaN-on-GaN wafer (just for tech reference) which, from running one here seems to dissipate heat much better..

Sorra won't sell raw chips though w/w it can be cheaper than Yuji to buy assembled lights and disassemble them .

also Kyocera is marketing a 3 phosphor violet pump (VP3.. not very creative.)

Currently trying to see if they will sell small lot modules ect.
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...lor-packaged-leds-lights-japanese-fa-ade.html

As to using the BC series you may be better off going w/ Luminous devices studio series COBs..
Luminus Devices: XNOVA Studio LED? Series

As to "one color".. I'm in semi-agreement except for one teeny catch.
Color temp adjustments.......................

Allowing one to tailor a look is a very nice feature..
As such though, using like the lum dev studio pair (3000/5060k) is simple
Yuji makes a twin K bar/strips as well. 

As to the need or acceptance.. market decision..

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...C00-F2-2/CVM-32-56-95-54-AC00-F2-2-ND/6151429
Note 300W at test current (5.5A, 54V ..107L/W...$86.24....32,000 lumens.. )


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

Jeff,

Do you know if high CRI COBs have the same CRI when run with less power?

Bump:


jturner said:


> Moving on. Even though these violet based emitters aren't quite as perfect as I had hoped (at least at this point in time) Yuji's BC (blue chip) series still have a beautiful full spectrum that is still extremely close to sunlight just minus the violet component. And no Yuji's BC series chips don't have any of the issues of the VTC series plus they have a higher efficiency. Having an aquarium light that uses Yuji's BC series would still be a huge step above any commercially available planted aquarium light that is available at this point in time.


Are you sure about this? Inexpensive white LEDs supplemented with certain colors may create as pleasing a look. I asked the question a couple weeks ago, and opinions were divided. 

The question that must be asked is this: Is anyone willing to spend that amount of money for "pure" high CRI (that degrades significantly) when its not even clear if it will look better / grow better than combined cheap LEDS?

It would certainly need ALOT of test data and positive endorsements.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

High CRI LED's will always, by definition, look more natural..As to "better" is always a matter of opinion. The old tube lit tank w/ white/roseate tubes may look better to many but natural it is not.. 

The advantage to high CRI led sw/ violet pumps is 1)adding violet which is available in tubes but not ANY standard white led 2)increased cyan so as to separate out shades of green (I'll leave the carotenoids out for a bit), also usually present in tubes.
Kessil left halo right Kessil needs more "natural" spectrum added.. Halo is adj to all k temps, still has little cyan, little deep red


> : 25 LED's (UV + Cool White + Warm White + Blue + Royal Blue + Red) LED Complement - Channel 1: Full spectrum of Grow Light 400-680nm. LED's: (1) UV 400nm, (1) UV 420nm, (2) Royal Blue, (12) Cool White, (1) Red 625nm. Channel 2: Warm White light for flowering and coloration. LED's: (8) Warm White. Power Consumption: 85 Watt.


MY issue is too much violet..  Unlike a violet pump w/ phosphors..and channel "mix" is lees than desirable.










White LEDs w/ red/deep red/violet/cyan in the proper proportions will increase CRI from the base white, w/ the drawback of complexity and possible toning but w/ the addition of spectrum "tailoring" to ones taste..

LED's run w/ PWM dimming (output) are more color stable than changing drive current dimming..
There is always some spectral shifts but generally low..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> High CRI LED's will always, by definition, look more natural..As to "better" is always a matter of opinion. The old tube lit tank w/ white/roseate tubes may look better to many but natural it is not..
> 
> The advantage to high CRI led sw/ violet pumps is 1)adding violet which is available in tubes but not ANY standard white led 2)increased cyan so as to separate out shades of green (I'll leave the carotenoids out for a bit), also usually present in tubes.
> Kessil left halo right Kessil needs more "natural" spectrum added.. Halo is adj to all k temps, still has little cyan, little deep red
> ...


I still havent ordered the LEDS for my RGB 3 channel light.

If you were going to make three RGB channels to supplement a 6500K main white channel, what combinations (ratios) would you use on each channel? For instance:

R- red + deep red 1:1
B- blue
G- lime + cyan 2:1

Or, does having three channels of RGB allow one to custom dial almost any color? DO the exact wavelengths even matter at that point?


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Colored leds are narrow spread outputs so yes spectrum matters..
Getting really technical the peak point of a cyan matters.. There are at least 3 different ones.. 
bluish green to greenish blue.. 

When I personally designing one I want my "main color temp" to utilize as much of the diodes as I can
One catch is I've never found high k white plus red to "look" low k white..seems some of the "yellowing "is always missing..
So really "the best" is CW/WW/R/G/B


Colored leds are narrow spread outputs so yes spectrum matters..
Getting really technical the peak point of a cyan matters.. There are at least 3 different ones.. 
bluish green to greenish blue.. 

When I personally designing one I want my "main color temp" to utilize as much of the diodes as I can
One catch is I've never found high k white plus red to "look" low k white..seems some of the "yellowing "is always missing..
So really "the best" is CW/WW/R/G/B
It's totally fool proof.. 




> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED Blue (460nm) [120°] x2
> LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x2
> ...


did amber plus green for lime..

gets kind of crazy though..


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED Blue (460nm) [120°] x2
> LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x2
> ...


simplified:



> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> LED Cyan (490nm) [120°] x2
> LED DeepRed (660nm) [120°] x2
> ...


D50 ref source.............
add one blue to this and d65 cri is 96


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> D50 ref source.............
> add one blue to this and d65 cri is 96


I see. If one is hunting the best CRI, then RGB channels will not get there as easily...

But I still think they will be the best way to develop the best overall look for one's tank, even if there are "holes" in the spectrum.

For instance, if one is using red as opposed to deep red, supplemented with blue and some green I suspect one can "fake" a darker red look, even if that spectrum is underrepresented.

One of the problems with the spectra tool... is that it assumes the whites are the actual value... yet they can vary within a range... The eipstar leds are not even supported by that toool...

Honestly and this may be sad to say,, but still some of the best looking planted tanks I've seen are with tubes. And who knows what CRI they have? Their strength? Years of experimentation and ability to mix and match different spectrums. If you like the look of a tank, you just buy those tubes.. LEDs are harder to duplicate...

Some of the high dollar led builds I've seen seem to suffer from spotlighting and over coloring, or like mine, just have low CRI.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> One of the problems with the spectra tool... is that it assumes the whites are the actual value


yes except for diodes w a natural range then they use the midpoint (or some other voodoo) of the range


> Honestly and this may be sad to say,, but still some of the best looking planted tanks I've seen are with tubes.


Thast's because its the seasoned old timers growing things.. 
Actually I used to love the "old fashioned" magenta looking tanks.. but after building LEds I moved on to that crisp shadowy natural look.
There is no right answer to this..

Personal correspondence seems to put your Yuji data to question..
First violet based emitters do have a shorter lifespan.
couple of possible reasons 1)plastic lens degradation due to UV. 2)Blue phosphors are slightly more unstable 

But you should get to 70% around 20000 hours (6.8 years @ 8 hrs/day)) w/ correct heat removal and drive currents.
blue based can go to at least 2x that..like 50,000 hours b4 losing 30%..

Back to reg LED's .. not sure what more you would want.. 
https://youtu.be/tjoGN-Rxnwg


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Ok we can debate all day what the best spectrum is in terms of visual appeal and of course there is never a correct answer. In my view the more natural and close to sunlight the better. So high CRI in my opinion= visually a better light. 

I spoke with Yuji again and the VTC series aging holds true. And this information is not coming from Yuji's US branch it's coming directly from their main factory in Beijing. As for the reason it has nothing to do with heat. It is because of the near UV damaging organic components of the LED. The main issue is the yellowing of the silicon lens. I was told that glass lenses could be used but high prices would make it impractical. The violet chip LEDs are a very new technology and still need work but are definitely promising. So as of now they really lose a good amount of their lumen output after 6000 hours so again they aren't really the best option for a long lasting aquarium light. The spectrum of the BC series is as close as there is to perfect at this point in terms of a high CRI sunlight mimicking LED that is also long lasting. 

jeffkrol you mentioned the Luminous devices studio series COB. Why these over Yuji? 

On the topic of providing plants with a full spectrum I wanted to address a big piece of misinformation that I see repeatedly stated as fact about what parts of the spectrum are best for plant growth and optimal photosynthesis. This is the gross oversimplification of those chlorophyll A/B absorption graphs that you see all too often that leads to the incorrect conclusion that plants only really need red and blue light and reflect nearly all green light. This is completely oversimplified and false. Those chlorophyll absorption charts are taken with chlorophyll in solution and do not represent the wavelengths used for photosynthesis by an entire leaf. More recent studies show that when the entire leaf is measured for its photosynthetic response to different wavelengths all wavelengths across the visible spectrum are used including 70-90% of wavelengths in the green part of the spectrum. I will link an article that explains this all more in depth and touches on some of the chemical processes involved. https://www.heliospectra.com/sites/default/files/general/What light do plants need_5.pdf



I have even talked to my biology professor, who is a plant biologist, about this and he finds it amazing how far this misunderstanding has gone leading to the LED grow light industry making tons of solely blue and red grow lights. So plants really use wavelengths all the way across the visible spectrum to drive photosynthesis and this makes sense from an evolutionary standpoint. The visible spectrum is a sweet spot between damaging UV and low energy IR that can be used to drive chemical processes. Over nearly a billion years of evolution why would land plants only evolve to utilize two narrow bands of blue and red wavelengths? Of course they have adapted ways to utilize wavelengths across the entire visible spectrum. It is my belief, which is supported by a good amount of scientific evidence and personal experience, that providing the closest spectrum possible to sunlight is the best way to achieve healthy plants with proper natural growth patterns. that's why I'm so interested in these Yuji emitters.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://www.digikey.com/product-det...VM-27-56-95-36-AA00-F2-2/1214-1230-ND/4965750
Luminous Devices was/is cheaper in relation to Yuji BC series..
151W chip same price as Yuji 100w chip.. 95CRI
as to personal choice.. Round chips in the Luminous style are perceived as more "robust" than the cheap looking (by inference) square Chinese multichips. Right or wrong.. 



> he finds it amazing how far this misunderstanding has gone leading to the LED grow light industry


Not sure that is totally fair. Orig idea was to maximize yield per watt of photons due to the high cost of LED's. There was no need for yellows ect w/ lower quantum efficiencies.
Plants can use part or all the spectrum w/ roughly the same results though there are spectrum caused differences from rooting to biomass to flavinoid production to morphology changes to pigments and viramins.

The antenna complex "feeds" Chl. A so that is the final acceptor. Using deep red/ rb cuts out the "middleman" pigments though even that wasn't 100% accurate.
Then there was, like you pointed out the in vivo vs in vitro differences. 
Now the field is evolving and as costs/quantum output falls there is less need for the rb/dr arrays. Unfortunately they get a bit entrenched in perception ..











> You can see how light energy absorbed by antenna pigment molecules (chlorophyll b, β-carotene, etc.) is transferred ultimately to a chlorophyll a reaction center pigment to drive photosynthesis. This fact is verified by the quantum efficiency of photosynthesis...











http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/lightrxn.shtml

http://plantphys.info/plant_physiology/light.shtml

Obviously hort lights are a horrible choice for our enjoyment.. 

Forgive the generalizations. 



> First violet based emitters do have a shorter lifespan.
> couple of possible reasons 1)plastic lens degradation due to UV. 2)Blue phosphors are slightly more unstable
> 
> But you should get to 70% around 20000 hours (6.8 years @ 8 hrs/day)) w/ correct heat removal and drive currents.
> blue based can go to at least 2x that..like 50,000 hours b4 losing 30%..


Yea the above numbers (my speculations as to cause) were from Yuji US..
I had pointed them to this thread so as to confirm/deny the horrible numbers you gave. Apparently that isn't happening.
2 year lifespan to less than 70% is unacceptable..
Though your chart is now missing..


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> 2 year lifespan to less than 70% is unacceptable..
> Though your chart is now missing..


From a commercial standpoint, if the leds are manufactured in a bulb or tube format that is easily replacable, at some point the price will be low enough that people can just install a new one.

2 year lifespan is probably better than a fluorescent tube.

However, I do take your side of the argument and agree those parts should probably not be sold if they degrade that quickly.

Also regarding price, unless there is something "expensive" about making high CRI leds (beyond the R&D) these high CRI leds will soon be churned out by cheap chinese factories. Its likely that the manufacturing process used for the cheap chips is identical to the prior generation used for high-end parts. Paying more now or wait a few years. 

It seems that the lighting industry is grappling with how best to monetize the technology. A throwaway strategy is probably in their best interest, knowing that tomorrows cheap parts will equal today's best.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Actually some of it doesn't make sense.. Even some plastics can be "stable"..
Led lighting - LEDiL?s G2-ROSE-UV optics ? Highly durable and versatile | Ledil

Luminescence degradation of InGaN/GaN violet LEDs - ScienceDirect
https://inis.iaea.org/search/search.aspx?orig_q=RN:41115011


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## ChrisX (May 28, 2017)

jeffkrol said:


> Actually some of it doesn't make sense.. Even some plastics can be "stable"..
> Led lighting - LEDiL?s G2-ROSE-UV optics ? Highly durable and versatile | Ledil
> 
> Luminescence degradation of InGaN/GaN violet LEDs - ScienceDirect
> https://inis.iaea.org/search/search.aspx?orig_q=RN:41115011


You should start a website/blog about LED technology.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

I want to thank you all for these discussions pertaining lighting nuances. It's fascinating even if a bit over my head at times.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

I've been pretty busy this past month but thought I would revive this thread. jeffkrol- I was merely reporting the data that was sent to me from yuji. Whether or not it makes sense that the violet based emitters have a short life span is a different question. All I can say is that I asked about using the VTC series COBs and it was pretty clear that the technology is not yet at a point to make it feasible for an aquarium light. 
Anyway I was ready to go ahead and try some 100w BC series chips when I found a new company that makes a COB chip which may be a better choice. It is a Chinese company that specializes in LED grow lights but they also make aquarium COB chips. They are called Shenzhen Sungrow LED Technology. Anyway I asked for some data on the COB chips that they make for planted tanks. Here is the spectrum chart.


The CRI on these is typically >94 which is similar to the Yuji BC series. There are a few things that make this a possibly more attractive option though. For one the price is less than yuji and the luminous devices chips. Also, violet is included in the spectrum. They preferred to keep the details of the chip design confidential so that other companies don't copy the design. However, from the spectrum graph it looks as though a blue emitter plus RG phosphor is used with the addition of a few extra violet as well as possibly some more blue LEDs. I also asked about making a custom dual channel COB chip with two different color temperature channels and they said that this was possible but with a larger MOQ. So with that I think that I'll try some of their 100w COB chips in the fixture I talked about in my first post. If these perform well then I may try designing a dual channel COB which would allow color controllability. Is there some interest in these? To me they look pretty perfect with high CRI, full spectrum including violets, cyans, and deep reds as well as the possibility for making them color controllable.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> I was merely reporting the data that was sent to me from yuji. Whether or not it makes sense that the violet based emitters have a short life span is a different question


Shorter lifespan wasn't ever an issue. HOW much shorter was the problem..
No Yuji people in the US have yet verified that it is THAT short..That is almost in unmarketable territory..


> Hi Jeff,
> 
> Just wanted to let you know I looked into this and found out that there was
> a miscommunication between one of our salespeople and a customer - please
> ...





> I posted the L70 20,000hr which is certainly reasonable..


That's what I got but very little followup..

Kind of annoyed w/ them atm..

Suggest tying Kyocera b4 Shenzen..



> Jeff,
> Hello, my name is Adam Schubring and I support our high CRI/Daylight LED in North America. We received your inquiry the other day and I’d like to follow-up.
> Small boards can be purchased, but can we discuss what you’re looking to achieve? Do you have specs on light color/temperature/intensity, etc?
> 
> ...



Anyways, currently playing w/ SORRA chips..Different crystal substrate than Yuji..


> They preferred to keep the details of the chip design confidential so that other companies don't copy the design.


BTW, you do that is BS right?

Any company worth anything could reverse engineer those chips in a heartbeat..


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> Shorter lifespan wasn't ever an issue. HOW much shorter was the problem..
> No Yuji people in the US have yet verified that it is THAT short..That is almost in unmarketable territory..
> 
> 
> ...


Ya I realized that sounded silly when they wouldn't tell me the details of the chip layout. Made me question using their LEDs. The Kyocera look interesting but for the compact style light that I am looking to make (sort of like kessil style) a single high powered COB chip is really what I am looking for. I may have another option though. The fixture manufacturer that I was working with also has an encapsulation business and they can use RG phosphor to create full spectrum white. They also are able to make a dual channel 100w COB chip with two color temperatures. I asked them to make me two sample chips with dual channel half 3000K and half 7000K. The idea is that when both channels are on full I get a neutral 5000k white and I can control color temp with the phone app. I also asked them to add in some 410nm violet and achieve a high CRI of 95 id possible. I am waiting to see what the spectrum looks like. It seems though that the use of RG phosphor as opposed to yellow is starting to become more popular for full spectrum white LEDs.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

another COB w/ some violet chips..
LUXEON CoB with CrispWhite Technology | Lumileds

too bad no more than 3000k..
Oddly enough (warning esoteric LED info)
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...dvancements-on-ssl-chromaticity-standard.html

















They have a COB geared to "fish". The eating kind in a grocery store..


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

jturner said:


> Ya I realized that sounded silly when they wouldn't tell me the details of the chip layout. Made me question using their LEDs. The Kyocera look interesting but for the compact style light that I am looking to make (sort of like kessil style) a single high powered COB chip is really what I am looking for. I may have another option though. The fixture manufacturer that I was working with also has an encapsulation business and they can use RG phosphor to create full spectrum white. They also are able to make a dual channel 100w COB chip with two color temperatures. I asked them to make me two sample chips with dual channel half 3000K and half 7000K. The idea is that when both channels are on full I get a neutral 5000k white and I can control color temp with the phone app. I also asked them to add in some 410nm violet and achieve a high CRI of 95 id possible. I am waiting to see what the spectrum looks like. It seems though that the use of RG phosphor as opposed to yellow is starting to become more popular for full spectrum white LEDs.


Give these a try maybe? If you message him he will customise it to use whatever chips you specify, although I'm told they already look pretty damn good. I use a pair of custom ones on my reef, using the Luxeon C. His boards are meant to use the Ledil reflectors and diffuser lens, and are killer for making a Kessil style pendant with 2" round heatsink stock...

https://blueacro.com/acrostar/

If we pretend that "lime" is a green and Amber, the CRI is 81-


* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (4000K) [120°] x3
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (2700K) [120°] x3
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Green (520-540nm) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Amber (584.5-594.5nm) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 1,337 lm
Radiant flux : 4,989 mW
PPF : 22 umol/s
TCP : 9430 K
CRI : 81
λp : 457 nm
Color : #FFB4FD
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 5.9 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 1,576 lx
PPFD : 26 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
http://spectra.1023world.net/



Shouldn't take much playing around to get up to 95+ CRI with eight emitters, swap a few things around and see what you get. Personally I would throw that blue on the 4000k channel...


If you want a violet on the board, see if he can do a set on the Luxeon C boards he does, they have a spot to run the semiLEDs violet on each channel, which will be cheaper than running a Luxeon Z violet like on the other boards, that's how my custom ones are done-



3 royal blue, 1x violet, and 1x 90CRI 5700k white, 1x "mint" 1x royal blue, 1x blue... It's for a reef that is meant to be very 20k looking, and it rocks!

Personally I like having a couple channels to play with, that's the only reason I'm not looking too hard at single chip solutions, but these boards let you do some nice things... 

But, on the subject of individual LEDs, I recently swapped my layout around in my nano build, and now run a 90CRI Vero 10 5600k, a 4k Luxeon, a violet, regular blue, and a cyan. Very natural and pleasing, from my rough sims on spectra with multiplied emitters to approximate my drive current I get a ~5k look with 94CRI.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Theatrus has some nice stuff....I'm awaiting to see if he finishes his spectrophotometer..


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

He sure has done some work getting these down, that's for sure.

On the subject of his boards, here's a quick rundown on spectra-

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (5000K) [120°] x4
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (3000K) [120°] x2
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x1
SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (410-420nm) (U70) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 1,213 lm
Radiant flux : 4,594 mW
PPF : 19.9 umol/s
TCP : 6100 K
CRI : 97
λp : 422 nm
Color : #FFE4E5
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 5.4 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 1,430 lx
PPFD : 23.4 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
SPECTRA

^ looks like a nice set of emitters. If I needed a small array that's what I would be asking him for in one of his Luxeon C boards. 

Looking at the graph in spectra, there's a hole in the 465-480nm area, so swapping a cool blue in there for any of the whites as I would be inclined to do, actually hurts us-

* MIXING LIST
----------------------------------------
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (5000K) [120°] x4
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (3000K) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Blue (460-480nm) [120°] x1
PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x1
SemiLEDs C35L-U-A UV (410-420nm) (U70) [120°] x1
----------------------------------------

* SIMULATION DATA
----------------------------------------
Luminous flux : 1,117 lm
Radiant flux : 5,434 mW
PPF : 22.7 umol/s
TCP : ‑ K
CRI : 36
λp : 457 nm
Color : #8582FF
----------------------------------------

* PERFORMANCE @ 30cm
----------------------------------------
Irradiance : 6.4 W/m²/s
Illuminance : 1,316 lx
PPFD : 26.8 umol/m²/s
----------------------------------------

by SPECTRA 1.0β @ 1.023world
SPECTRA

Color temp skyrocketed up to 30k+ and CRI shot down to 36... similar results on either white you swap. Is the lack of the blue here an issue? Probably not, but some more fooling around on spectra should give us something pretty nice that covers the range with good CRI and spectral coverage, and I think we can do with eight emitters...


Man, maybe we should start a Spectra circlejerk thread? This is actually pretty fun.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (5000K) [120°] x6
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (4000K) [120°] x4
> ...













Run all full but the reb blue at 1/2 power..3,2,1/2,2..

OR 1/3


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (5000K) [120°] x9
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel PLUS (4000K) [120°] x6
> ...





> The preferred white curve is approximately -0.015 of the Duv value below the black-body locus throughout 2700K to 6500K. One interpretation of both sets of research suggests that subjects would assume that a pink hue is whiter, while one result suggests if the light is cool white, the subjects thought that a green hue is whiter.


http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...dvancements-on-ssl-chromaticity-standard.html

not sure it applies to fish people.. 



Addendum: OPPS forgot you only have 2 channels...soooo
back to the semi...




> ----------------------------------------
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (5000K) [120°] x3
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-A ANSI (4000K) [120°] x2
> PhilipsLumileds Luxeon-Rebel Cyan (490-510nm) [120°] x1
> ...


deep red /5000k *ch1*
semi/4000k/cyan *ch2*

4830k-10420k


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

^looks pretty good. 


BTW, I've started a brainstorm thread concerning a high CRI build, if anyone cares to give a look. I don't think we need to clutter this one up any further...

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/10-lighting/1192842-lets-diy-led-rig-my-55-brainstorm-thread.html


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

A lot of good ideas here. Sprectra is definitely a fun tool to play around with. I'll have to look more into blueacro.com and those boards he's making. They look pretty cool. Especially if I decide to update the lighting I have over my reef from the kessils I have.
I wanted to share the first bit of data that I got back from those 100w dual channel high CRI COBs I had made. Here is a picture of one of the chips. It's half 3000K and half 7000K using red and green phosphor. There's a few violet chips added in but next time I'll be adding a bit more violet. 



And below is the first bit of spectrum data I have received. 



The CRI(Ra) is 95 for the combined spectrum. Once I get more data in I will be doing a TM-30-15 analysis which is a much more thorough measure of color quality than CRI. I will also get spectrum data for each channel at different intensities to see how the CRI is maintained through a range of color temperatures. Finally, I will try to get some PAR data. 
I am having these COB chips put into a nice pendant style fixture with fan cooling, app controllability, and a 120° wide angle lens to improve spread. If I am satisfied I will work on turning these into a product available to hobbyists. If anyone wants to try some samples to see how they work on their tanks and provide feedback I am open to discounted prices. 

I am pretty excited about these lights. They are exactly what I was striving for in making the perfect planted aquarium/ vivarium LED light. Very high CRI, color controllability, and a full spectrum that covers violets, cyans, and deep reds.


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

That's pretty rad!


Reminds me of the original "dream chip" over on reefcentral, which eventually evolved into the Lumia from LEDGroupBuy/MakersLED...


Will be interested to see how it works for you. There's something to be said for an effective brute-force single chip solution when they work well.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

The COB chips have been installed into the fixtures. I have PAR data as well as spectrum graphs showing spectrum shifts as each channel is dimmed to different intensities. The PAR data was taken at 15,30,45, and 60cm away from the light source. For each distance, one measurement was taken directly under the light, and then 4 more measurements were taken at various distances away from the center to show how the light is distributed.





I should be getting some more data soon so will keep updating. So far it's looking like the perfect planted aquarium LED.


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## Botia dude (Feb 6, 2005)

jturner said:


> The COB chips have been installed into the fixtures. I have PAR data as well as spectrum graphs showing spectrum shifts as each channel is dimmed to different intensities. The PAR data was taken at 15,30,45, and 60cm away from the light source. For each distance, one measurement was taken directly under the light, and then 4 more measurements were taken at various distances away from the center to show how the light is distributed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From everything I've gleaned reading these discussion posts this chip looks like the real deal all in one solution. I'd be more inclined to build something with this than fiddling with multiple chips etc. Just get heatsink, driver, chip, controller and GO. What would be the expected life span of this chip? 36k hrs?


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## Lingwendil (Nov 16, 2012)

jturner said:


> The COB chips have been installed into the fixtures. I have PAR data as well as spectrum graphs showing spectrum shifts as each channel is dimmed to different intensities. The PAR data was taken at 15,30,45, and 60cm away from the light source. For each distance, one measurement was taken directly under the light, and then 4 more measurements were taken at various distances away from the center to show how the light is distributed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good so far! What's the cost per array? What's the dimensions of the actual board/assembly? Looks like a good solution for cooling would be one of those heat pipe/radiator CPU cooler arrangements (which I happen to have a pair of) for simplicity.

Depending on price I might be interested in testing some at some point in a few months...


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

I wasn't planning on selling the chips individually but may be open to it. The fixture is a pretty sleek looking pendant style light. It looks similar to this....



Diameter is 13cm and height is 13cm so very compact. Price for fixture with everything included would be around $300 (I am open to discounts for the first guinea pigs) This includes everything including the wifi box for app controllability. With the app you can dim each channel, set timer, and program sunrise/sunset. The app is free. If you want to download it to check it out you can search SmartLed_TQ in the app store. 
Botia dude: I'll try to get back to you on the expected lifespan.

Like I said before I may be open to selling individual chips to those who want to try this DIY. I will have to look at shipping costs to see if it's reasonable. To be honest though it will be difficult to build a DIY fixture that is comparable to the one I am offering for the price that it is and in terms of small size and controllability.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Looks really good..

Question:
App not android compatible?



> Requires iOS 7.0 or later. Compatible with iPhone, iPad, and iPod touch.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

The app should be Android compatible. Sorry I know that that was a previous question that I didn't answer.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Actually I need to double check that


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Yes the app is compatible with Android. I don't know what its called in the android app store but if you want to take a quick look here is a QR code you should be able to scan with your phone.



And this is the first photo I have received of one of the fixtures all put together along with wifi box and mount. I will be able to offer a few different mounting options with the fixture.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

The lights have arrived and I am impressed with them so far. I don't actually have any planted tanks right now but have set them up on a heavily planted 75 gallon vivarium. With both channels on at equal percentages it really looks like daylight. The first thing that I noticed with the high CRI is the colors on my two phyllobates terribilis "orange" dart frogs look so much nicer. With the full range of red wavelengths in the light spectrum their colors appear a much more vibrant orange when they used to appear as a paler yellow under my old LEDs. The reds in the plants also look so much more vibrant. There is also a much wider range of green tones visible in the plant foliage. I am also really enjoying the range of color temperatures and the ease of adjustment with the app. The warm channel really resembles that beautiful golden light seen just before sunset and just after sunrise. The cool channel is also really nice as it includes a good amount of cyan and greens in addition to the blue and violet making the greens in the tank really pop even at such I high Kelvin temp. I am also loving the fact that there is absolutely no sign of disco ball effect from attempting to mix various single wavelengths. I know that lighting a vivarium with these is not the same as lighting a planted tank but it really isn't too different. I actually hung the lights over my 90 gallon reef just to see what they would look like over water. The shimmer they give off is pretty awesome because of the single point light source. The light spread also seems a bit better when mounted over water.
The following photos were taken with my camera white balance set at 5500K. 

Both Channels 100%



Cool Channel 100% Warm Channel 0%



Warm Channel 100% Cool Channel 0%



Close up of the COB chip. (The spots where it looks like there are LEDs missing are the violet chips) 





Overall I am really pleased with these so far. They are incredibly bright and I have no doubt that they will grow plants well. Let me know if you want to try some out. I would be really interested to see what these look like over a nice planted aquarium.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

BRAVO!!!!!
high CRI really needs to be seen to be believed..

BTW: Did you add more violet than the orig?

Looks like you have 5


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

jeffkrol said:


> BRAVO!!!!!
> high CRI really needs to be seen to be believed..
> 
> BTW: Did you add more violet than the orig?
> ...


Yes absolutely! The pictures don't really do it justice. 
No I didn't add more violet in these. I'm thinking of changing the violets to 410-420nm next time.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jturner said:


> Yes absolutely! The pictures don't really do it justice.


Yep..........



jturner said:


> No I didn't add more violet in these. I'm thinking of changing the violets to 410-420nm next time.


I see you used real UV... Yea suggest going higher like above..

Even violets "fog" the overlay a bit ..UV may locally brown your chip in a short period of time..
Maybe they've gotten their "plastics" better..

About chemicals but interesting..
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...mp.pdf&usg=AFQjCNE_gLHNC01A_p2jbO6HMOiPmd0hyQ


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## JTDillon (Mar 11, 2017)

OKAY THEN, so what is the verdict? What is the light that most closely mimics sun light with a high CRI? Obviously a beautiful, clear, natural look is desirable... I always wanted a Kessill just cant justify the price of the little bastards

Bump:


jturner said:


> The lights have arrived and I am impressed with them so far. I don't actually have any planted tanks right now but have set them up on a heavily planted 75 gallon vivarium. With both channels on at equal percentages it really looks like daylight. The first thing that I noticed with the high CRI is the colors on my two phyllobates terribilis "orange" dart frogs look so much nicer. With the full range of red wavelengths in the light spectrum their colors appear a much more vibrant orange when they used to appear as a paler yellow under my old LEDs. The reds in the plants also look so much more vibrant. There is also a much wider range of green tones visible in the plant foliage. I am also really enjoying the range of color temperatures and the ease of adjustment with the app. The warm channel really resembles that beautiful golden light seen just before sunset and just after sunrise. The cool channel is also really nice as it includes a good amount of cyan and greens in addition to the blue and violet making the greens in the tank really pop even at such I high Kelvin temp. I am also loving the fact that there is absolutely no sign of disco ball effect from attempting to mix various single wavelengths. I know that lighting a vivarium with these is not the same as lighting a planted tank but it really isn't too different. I actually hung the lights over my 90 gallon reef just to see what they would look like over water. The shimmer they give off is pretty awesome because of the single point light source. The light spread also seems a bit better when mounted over water.
> The following photos were taken with my camera white balance set at 5500K.
> 
> Both Channels 100%
> ...



I am interested in trying them out. Are you going to be selling them or?


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Yes I am selling some samples. Send me a PM if you are interested.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

One question.. Kessil, Halo ec usually have a choice of lens angle.
Is this one interchangeable?


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

I can have them made with different lens angles 60°,90°,and 120°. I can't make them interchangeable though.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Which lens angle do you have on the ones above.


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

These are 120°


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

jturner said:


> These are 120°


Been awhile.. How is the project going?


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## jturner (Nov 20, 2016)

Still working on it and testing the first couple of samples. I am having a few more samples made to fix some minor issues with the fixture as well as improve the chip a bit more. I just received some test reports and spectrum data from the new samples. I entered the raw spectrum data points into the Osram Color calculator software to analyze the spectrum. I was able to achieve a CRI of 96. The chip also has an efficiency of 112lm/W and puts out over 11000 lumens. These graphs were produced by the software. 

Here is the spectrum graph of the combined spectrum both 3000K and 7000K at 100%. I used 410-420nm violet chips this time to avoid UV damage. 



Here is the R value plot. The only slight weakness is with R12.


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## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

Anything new with these? Any units available? I'm looking for a light that will light a 24x18x18 tank, medium to high light, pressurized CO2. These look super nice and I like the idea of a pendant over a strip.


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## napaeozapus (Feb 22, 2014)

Seoul Semiconductor is developing a new SunLike series of cob LEDs. The spectrum looks pretty good to me ( though I’m far from an expert) and they are high CRI. I can’t seem to post a link from my phone as it seems to think I have too few posts ( grrr) so I guess google is your friend.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jimclassic (Dec 14, 2017)

Is 9W x 2 LEDS ok for 20 gallon tank?


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## FreshPuff (Oct 31, 2011)

Any updates?


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## Basviola (Apr 3, 2019)

If you want to go with strip LED, what brands would you guys suggest?

Chihiros A series, how does that compare with high end manufacturer of high CRI LED's.

Thanks, for this very interesting thread.

Nicolaj


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Basviola said:


> If you want to go with strip LED, what brands would you guys suggest?


Personally and if referring to commercial units Fluval Plant 3.0 is a favorite




Basviola said:


> Chihiros A series, how does that compare with high end manufacturer of high CRI LED's.


most seem to prefer the RGB or RGBW versions.
The all white is prob. fairly average CRI..


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm curious how the OPs project is going but seeing as it's been over a year since his last post I'm not really expecting to get any updates. Still if you're alive what's going on?!

I guess I would agree if thats what he means by strip led but I thought he was talking the flexible strips...
If you just want cheap white leds maybe the bridgelux eb gen 2 strips though I don't think those are flexible but I would just get a beamswork or lower end chihiros in that case, but I'm guessing chihiros a series is not 90+ cri and being all 8k whites even if it is decent cri, r9 is likely terrible. 

if money were no object I would try https://store.waveformlighting.com/...ights-for-film-photography-one-reel-16-ft-5-m or https://store.yujiintl.com/collecti...sten-daylight-dimmable-led-strip-pack-5m-reel but uhhh I'm slightly too cheap for that and personally screwing around with these https://superlightingled.com/dc24v-...t-per-reel-96ledsmeter-led-strips-p-2360.html because 60$ a meter is pretty steep. Though I've actually got the one with 60 leds/m as that was the only one on amazon, and I didn't find their website first. I'm just using it to light some 10g low tech tanks. Though I won't have any par data till this weekend and I'm not really that concerned with it, I'm sure it's enough for my low tech 10g nonsense.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Problem is Yuji "violet based" emitters has/had conflicting info regarding their longevity of their vi8olet based emitters...so personally, they are out for me..

SORRA (no "chips" just finished bulbs) Nichia, and Kyocera are really more mainstream..

Light Emitting Diode(LED)/NICHIA CORPORATION
https://global.kyocera.com/news/2018/0702_leda.html

and yea waveform lighting..
https://www.waveformlighting.com/high-cri-led

Unfortunately from a manuf. perspective base efficiency of royal blue still exceeds the violet bases..
and of course bottom line (cheap lumens/$) has a tendency to win ...

And still watching longevity of the blue phosphors being used.. though those even pop up in things like the 
lumiled fresh fish, luminous devices "studio" and other very high CRI chips..
so supposedly not as much of an issue as in the past..
2011

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702111702115

Actually wrote to Sorra about this and they said it wasn't a concern.. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-28834-8

CRAZY fun stuff..


> Synopsis
> 
> A novel carbonitride, YScSi4N6C, has been synthesized, and its structure has been characterized. Ce3+-doped YScSi4N6C emits cyan light with a broad asymmetric emission band. A white light-emitting diode prepared by combining YScSi4N6C:Ce3+ (blue), β-sialon:Eu2+ (green), and CaAlSiN3:Eu2+ (red) phosphors with a near-UV chip (λem = 405 nm) emits white light with a CRI of 94.7 and a CCT of 4159 K, and the R12 index of the white light was 88.


https://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/acs.inorgchem.7b01408?src=recsys&#


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

The yuji bc series is royal blue and vct is violet so that 300$ strip is still blue diodes. I'm using 2 soraa 5000k bulbs on my most recent tank, I like them a lot but just wish they were more convenient to dim... And also that they didn't abandon 5k "bulbs" so they could keep their 95+ cri.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> The yuji bc series is royal blue and vct is violet so that 300$ strip is still blue diodes. I'm using 2 soraa 5000k bulbs on my most recent tank, I like them a lot but just wish they were more convenient to dim... And also that they didn't abandon 5k "bulbs" so they could keep their 95+ cri.



SORRA's chip is easy to strip out and make it a plain COB. Put 3 over my 55 mounted to heat sinks and run off standard dimmable drivers like an LDD..
The chip is REALLY soft aluminum though.
I'd have to check over the procedure again but you just need to drill out the plugs that hold the lens together..couple screws, desolder 2 wires and the chips
out.. Mine weren't even thermal pasted I believe. It's been awhile but have a small bag o of the 5000's (clearance buy) which aren't made anymore afaict..


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Hmm well maybe I will convert them to use a different driver at some point.


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Wobblebonk said:


> Hmm well maybe I will convert them to use a different driver at some point.


 This is what this type looks like disassembled..
Arrow is the rim that the chip was stuck to..

http://www.qualiteitems.com/images/sorradis.JPG


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Just to derail things even further, what do you make of these?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/10W...ectrum-of-sun-diy-grow-light/32951576956.html
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1W-...p-Full-Spectrum-Sunlight-380/32932268934.html

















from user feedback


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

Yea, those are really fun chips..
solves the "blue phosphor" issue..
but still no "violet" to speak of.
hmmm.. I'll get back to this but certainly a good overall COB.

Ran the above curve through SPECTRA (I keep looking for the amount of transcription error on my end)


> * MIXING LIST
> ----------------------------------------
> myData lcfocus5000(2).csv [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> ...


R9 patch scored higher in SPECTRA..

Somewhat better chip:










> Hydroponics 100W Full Spectrum 380-840nm 45mil Grow LED SMD COB DIY 100 200 300 500 W Watt Grow Light For Indoor Plant


EXTRAPOLATED from the graph above, so may be some errors.
Peaks 395,410,452


> myData lcgocusw-uv.txt [120°] x1
> ----------------------------------------
> 
> * SIMULATION DATA
> ...


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

I suspect that model is whites + extra uv diodes, as it's much cheaper per cob and they offer down to like 1W with no uv until the cob sizes, while the FS5 chips don't start till a 24 diode 10W size. Still might try both it's not too much more to get 2 of the FS2 also. That line drawing was from 1 user's feedback pics and I'm not sure what was used to measure it in each case, their own "graph" marketing material shows slightly more violet for the 5k but I'm just slightly more fascinated with this
















their marketing slide








and I'm not sure what this is from but included with the first pic









This pic was from someone using the FS2... but they went with the 10W cobs while it seems to show the UV isn't included until 20W size


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

White plus UV doesn't start till 20w.... 
There is no uv in the smaller chips.. 

Same issue as the full spectrum.. Need "room"..










My only "thing" is the full spectrum w/ UV are considerably cheaper than the daylight cob's.
And you get UV (which sadly we do know to be prone to failure , SO there is that)

IF SPECTRA is close to right the full spectrum is around 6500k base.. and the daylight 5000k-ish
There is that too..
No, not saying 6500k is "better" than 5000k..


do really like the suppression of the blue spike in the daylight chip.. More phosphors.. more expensive (phosphors aren't cheap)

Oh and technically probably still blues w/ phosphors..


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Well I ordered 2 of each @ 30W though I've only got the heatsink for 1 set of 2 right now, and I'm not sure I have a great way of supplying 900ma for the FS2 but I'll figure something out... I suppose I could just use 1000ma and 700 ma LDDs for FS5/2 respectively, (FS5 listed @ 1050ma, 2 @ 900ma) or get like an ELG or something that can only dim to 50%. I have 1 LRS-75-36 I was going to use for 1 pair and the one I don't use is likely just gonna be sitting around for a little while. Also got some optics 60,90 & 120 degree...

Probably will be like a month till they arrive :/


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## jeffkrol (Jun 5, 2013)

https://blueacro.com/acroiq/

Get a set of current adj drivers.. 

Everyone should have one.. LOL


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## Wobblebonk (Feb 13, 2018)

Well that does seem pretty convenient. Thanks.


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