# fungus or columnaris? (sp?)



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Hard to tell what it is. I'd remove him and watch him and see how it progresses. Maybe try a bit of salt in the mean time. Did you quarantine the new fish before adding them to the tank?


----------



## JSA (Jun 3, 2011)

If it's columnaris, you'll have to treat the whole tank. I'm dealing with it now.

Julia


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I don't have another tank to move him to. I didn't quarantine the fish (because I have no other tank) but I noticed he had this as soon as I added the rainbows - it was because he was hiding and I was looking for him that I noticed it. He was fine before I did a water change this morning, I'm 99% sure. (I know for a fact he was fine at bedtime last night - I sit & watch the fish every night before bed and pay special attention to the rams because they are so cool).
I did treat the tank with aquarium salt because I read it can possibly help if it's a fungus. I didn't know if I should up the temps, or if that would actually benefit fungus, so I didn't. I will also say both rams have acted very strange since the water change this time. Hiding, acting very stressed, not feeding. I did change more than I usually do because I recently did 3 days of dog dewormer treatments for planaria just this week. So instead of my normal 20%, I did closer to 45%. Maybe the water temps were way off? I use API's water conditioner when I do changes.
Julia, how are you treating the columnaris? Is it curable? I never experienced anything other than ick in my entire life, now I realize the importance of having a well stocked aquarium medicine cabinet on hand. If I have to order meds online, it'll be too late. 
I have the lights off now to help ease the stress of adding new fish - I hope I'll see an improvement tomorrow, I'll be crushed if it turns out to be columnaris.


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

treat the whole tank with heavy anti-biotics. It's highly infectious.

If your fish dies within 72 hours, it's definitely columnaris.


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Columnaris is bacterial and usually treated with antibiotics. Don't raise the temp right now - if it's bacterial it could just get worse.

You really need to get another tank to set up for quarantine. Adding new fish without quarantining them is begging for trouble.

I'm also wondering if this could be a reaction to the worm meds you were using.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

What kind of antibiotics? I have a sinking feeling I won't be finding them at Petsmart...
The dewormer was safe-guard (fenbendazole) and I used 1/2 gram on day 1, 1/2g on day 2, and a full gram on day 3. Perhaps that stressed out the rams, too. Combined with the big water change today - one day after completeing the deworming.
So far the black tetras and the cardinals appear to be fine - as best as I can see.
I will be sure to get a 10g hospital tank as soon as I get paid on Wednesday! Hopefully it won't be too late for these fish...it will be a month or so before I am in a position to buy more fish - I'll get a 20g set up as a quarantine tank first...how long do you leave fish in quarantine before adding them to the permanent tank?


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

A good dose of copper safe and maroxy will fix that in about 10 days time. Remember, with every disease there is often a secondary one that you will most likely need to deal with as well.


----------



## shrimpNewbie (May 6, 2011)

treat for both fungal and bacterial to be safe


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I didn't know what to get (choices were limited) so I bought maracyn & maracyn2. I dosed the first time today - sadly, the ram died. What is odd is that after adding the aquarium salt last night, all the fungus-looking white bits on him were gone in the morning, but he was hiding, listless, and having trouble staying upright. Right up until he died, his color was peak, his gills weren't inflamed looking, but he stayed on his side at the bottom until he died. I have 3 cardinals with cottony white tails - one was shimmying and having great difficulty swimming - I was going to euthanized that one. Right at this moment I can't find it - it left the spot it was "hiding" in. It may be dead, or back in the school. I have to leave for a few hours so I won't be able to look until I get back. 
I do recall a few weeks ago having a strange translucent covering crop up on my glass - at the time I thought is was an aglea bloom or tiny hydras - they were miniscule little wavy fronds - but mostly they looked like tiny hyrda or anemoneas (sp?). I've since read one article somewhere that states columnaris starts with a similar looking occurance. Anyone here experience that?
Wish my luck - I feel this is only the beginning...I'm especially worried about the new celebes rainbows I _just_ put in the tank...*sigh*


----------



## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Fungus in most cases is a secondary symption/infection due to something else like columnaris. It sounds like you have columnaris since it died pretty soon after you spotted it. Maracyn & m2 might work as a combo. Some use another called Tri-sulfa but you can only get it online.

Try hydrogen peroxide after you're done with the antibiotics too. Go for 1-2ml for every gallon. I use H2O2 to clear up questionable external disease.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

So I can put the hydrogen peroxide directly into the tank?
Thanks for the help!
I lost one of the cardinals before I went out this morning, it did a fast downward spiral while I was watching the tank prior to leaving, and it was obvious it wasn't going to make it. I euthanized it before I left, worried that I wouldn't be able to find it later. I'm going to go take stock of the tank now...


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

maracyn 2 is OK for coumnaris not great though, maracyn is not good for much. The best cure for culumnaris is furan-2/bifuran combined with kanamycin. Kanamycin is a very effective antibiotic when compared to maracyn-2 but it can cause issues if overused, follow the directions. You need a hospital tank even if you don't keep it setup all the time. Get a 10 gallon setup from walmart for $50.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Unfortunately, Petsmart and my lfs didn't sell any of the other meds mentioned. I'll have to order online and build up a medicine chest!


----------



## aa79606 (Sep 22, 2010)

So sorry you're dealing with all this Cin...  hope the treatments start to help soon!!

Amy


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Yeah, this is a rotten learning curve. Maybe I didn't get the best medicine, but I hope it helps. I'll have to stock up meds from online...


----------



## JSA (Jun 3, 2011)

lipadj46 said:


> maracyn 2 is OK for coumnaris not great though, maracyn is not good for much. The best cure for culumnaris is furan-2/bifuran combined with kanamycin. Kanamycin is a very effective antibiotic when compared to maracyn-2 but it can cause issues if overused, follow the directions. You need a hospital tank even if you don't keep it setup all the time. Get a 10 gallon setup from walmart for $50.


Driftwoodhunter:
What lipadj says concurs with my research. Columnaris, I found, is a gram-negative bacterial infection. Maracyn treats gram-positive infections, so it's not much use, although it may prevent secondary infections. Maracyn 2 is for gram-negative infections, and I believe the triple sulfa is as well. So are the medications lipad mentioned. Unfortunately, PetSmart didn't carry either of those so I went with what I could find, which seems to be working.

I am using Maracyn 2 in conjunction Jungle Fungus Clear tablets, plus salt and Pimafix, and I have turned off my heater because lower temps slow the growth of bacteria. I have read that Pimafix is of some aid with this disease, while Melafix is ineffective. The treatment appears to be working - one of my cories that was so ill he couldn't swim on Sunday is now scuttlling around with the others. 

I am treating them in a bare 10 hospital tank. I have taken down the infected tank and will be disinfecting and reestablishing it this weekend. I have also disinfected all my equipment with bleach solution, and will be very careful to do the same with the hospital tank and with anything that comes in contact with it. The real downer is that I will have to recycle the tank. It was low-tech and did not contain any really special plants, but when I dipped the plants in beach solution to disinfect before putting them in my other tank, it killed them. I should have used pottassium permanganate, but I didn't have any. 

So, on my shopping list next time I order online: Kanmycin, Furan 2 and potassium permanganate.

Imprinted indelibly on my brain: QUARANTINE NEW FISH!!!!! 

Live and learn, eh?

Julia


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

I got stung bad by not QTing and lost some 25 fish before I got things under control plus having to restart my biofilter. The maracyn 2 will take care of columnaris most of the time just make sure to do the entire treatment. Live and learn indeed.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

yes, an expensive lesson, but that's the kind that stick with me the best ; )


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

There are so many other choices for treating minor bacterial infections that antibiotics should never be used except in severe cases. Antibiotics reek havoc on your tank and the good bacteria... you just shouldn't go there. Had you used the Maroxy and the Coppersafe your ram would have lived. How do I know? I helped a friend with the same rams and same problem a month ago and his rams lived.

Copper - Kills fungus and parasites in the gills
Maroxy - Kills minor bacterial AND fungal infections without screwing up the bio filter.

Antibiotics are like using a nuclear weapon to stop a home invasion... They screw up the water parameters and stress the fish even more.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

So much conflicting info - it's so confusing for a noob! I just want to do the right thing by my fish...
I am on my second day of the maracyn & maracyn2, but since my ph is above 8, the maracyn2 is wasted money.
I just ordered Kanaplex (seachem) from my lfs - it will be good to have on hand anyhow. I can get the copper & tri-sulfa meds at Petsmart. The copper label didn't specifically mention gram negative or columnaris, so I didn't get it before. 
I am considering stopping the maracyn & maracyn2, doing another water change, and using the copper or the Kanaflex when it arrives. The fish that are dying (lost 4 cardinals, and the remaining ram is in the top 1/4 of the tank, I think gasping a bit) show no signs of fungus, so I thought it might be a bacterial infecton of the gills (which makes the copper appealing). One of the new rainbows is showing open, redder gills, and is staying by itself.
I'll go out & get the copper now, hopefully there will be more input on it by the time I get home tonight. 
Specifically, I'd like to know if it was your tank, would you stop the maracyns, do a water change, and try the copper?
Thanks so much for all your help, I'd really like to help those poor fish...


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

this is coumnaris not a minor fin infection, antibiotics are the way to go . Complete your maracyn/maracyn-2 treatment. When you are done do big water changes and add some tetra safestart to boost your bio filter.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Is the maracyn-2 working for me, though? My ph is 8 or higher. Does it become totally inert over 7.6? I was afraid to use a ph adjuster, thinking that would stress the fish as much as anything.
The petstore was out of coppersafe, but I did pick up the API triple-sulfa. I also picked up some Prime, which I've never used before. I don't have safestart, but i do have TopFin bacteria supplement.
The medicine cabinet for the fish is now better stocked than my own - lol


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

*adding a pic*

I wanted to add this pic, I apologize for the poor quality. 
About two weeks before this outbreak, I noticed tiny translucent fliaments all over the glass. Since I also had planaria & hyrda at the time, I thought they were tiny hydra. (I still think there were tiny hydra mixed in - I do not see any since doing a dewormer treatment)
Just prior to starting the maracyn & maracyn2 treatment, I did a 45% water change and scraped my glass at the same time. The next day is when the fungus/colulmnaris became evident. Now, two days in the maracyn treaments, its all over the glass again. 
I know it's fuzzy & unclear, but what I'm seeing are miniscule, translucent filaments waving in the current. Also, what look like miniature snail eggs (I do have pond snails) but perhaps what look like eggs are spores of the filaments, because they are much smaller than any snail eggs I'v noticed before. I ask about this because one of the online articles I read mentioned people seeing a similar growth on thier glass before a columnaris outbreak. 
Have any of you that have had columnaris experienced this?


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

the antibiotics can be driving the planeria out of your filters or could have killed the bacteria that normally eats that stuff. Just do a water change between doses and finish the full course of antibiotics.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Am I supposed to do water changes between the daily doses of maracyn? Or do you mean at the end of the week long dosing schedule? There is no mention of doing a water change on the box or printed instructions, so I was going to do one after the completed treatment.
Thanks for helping!


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

When in doubt follow the directions on the box. That being said my opinion though is clean water is as important as the medicune. It depends on the medication but I personally like to do complete water changes between doses but then I dose the full strength each time (if for instance the proceeding doses are half strength). Many antibiotics do direct to do water changes between doses so its not like I'm making this stuff up completely


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

There are no directions in regards to water changes, on the box or in the sheet inside for either of their products. I never thought about how odd that was until you mentioned it. So I don't know if the medicine level needs to be built up over the 5 days, or if I should change the water every day. Hmm?
I know the triple sulfa I bought today calls for a partial water change after the second dose. Somewhere in the maracyn intructions there must be a # to call - if I can remember to call at my lunch break tomorrow. I might get someone, maybe not (it being Sunday & all).
Thanks


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

I guess my experience of running an aquatic quarantine facility for 7 years in Australia does not make my advice very good. Antibiotics are the last thing that should have been used, ESPECIALLY in water with a PH of 8. They oxidize to quickly to be effective.

Antibiotics were developed for HUMANS whose blood has a PH of 7.35. Not fish tank water with a PH of 8.

Don't mess with the PH, that is more chemicals you need to add and the more out of balance the tank will be and those acids will also react with the antibiotics.... 
UGH.. disease compounded with a dead bio filter.. now everything is a mess, fish are sick....

Yeikes

Yep, like I said, a nuclear bomb to stop a home invasion...

When you are done cleaning the tank with bleach and starting over, remember, when dealing with any disease, ALWAYS start with the least invasive treatments first. Then if all else fails and only then, use antibiotics.

Also remember, a secondary disease will most likely be associated with the primary one. Fungus follows bacteria so always treat for both. That is what makes maroxy a good product. It deals with both.

Mardel MarOxy slowly releases small amounts of a stabilized oxygen-chlorine combination which, when used as directed, has an unusual ability to treat wide variety of tropical fish diseases, especially fungal infections and certain common bacterial infections. Fungal infections are difficult to treat in humans as well as animals. True Fungus infections require strong, often toxic medications to successfully control them.

Until the development of MarOxy, most fungus problems affecting fish could not be successfully treated without possible harm to the fish. MarOxy successfully controls fungus infections caused by Saprolegnia, Ichthyosporidium, egg fungus, and related species, and safely controls fungus infections.

Notes from Mardel on biological filtration: "Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas are recognized as the primary beneficial bacteria present in the biological filtration system of any aquarium. Some drugs which treat fish diseases and parasitic infestations are harmful to these 'good' bacteria. When the biological filter is upset, there is a buildup of ammonia and nitrite concentrations resulting in fish distress and death. Mardel products have been tested with known strains of these bacteria with no adverse effects noted. When used as directed, they do not interfere with the biological filter."


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Maroxy isn't available in any of the stores here - I would have to order it online. I googled Maroxy, and haven't been able to find any info as to what bacteria it actually works on - gram negative or gram postive? If you can find a link to something that specifies that, please spost it here! Thanks! It is another thing I'll order to add to my medicine cabinet.
Even though I believe the Maracyn 2 is having no effect due to my high ph, I'll finish the treatment (I'm using Maracyn with it). Then, after a water change and a day of putting carbon back in my filter to pull the maracyn out, and the use of a bacteria supplent, I'll do a round of either the Kanaplex I ordered (it works better at high ph) or the Triple Sulfa. If the tank is shot and the fish all die, I'll tear it down & sterilize it with bleach. If the fish can hold on until I get paid Wed. I'll buy a hosp. tank, and still tear down the 55...
bubbleboy, when you say a nuclear bomb to stop a home invasion, it's more like a nuclear bomb to stop a nuclear bomb! Whatever is killing the fish is doing so at lightning speed. I believe it's columnaris, but of course I can't be sure. I'm hoping the broad spectrum gram negative + gram positve treatments I am doing will save some of the fish...


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

yes columnaris is a big deal and will kill everything very quickly many just cull every fish and nuke the tank with bleach and start over. I would like to hear bubbleboy's specific experience with treating columnaris with Maroxy andcopper safe alone because this is the first I've heard of it and its the first time I've heard columnaris not being a big deal.

I would still finish the antibiotic treatment with water changes before each redose. My personal very recent experience with a nasty case of columnaris (my pH is around 6 with the driftwood) was the only thing that worked was kanmycin combined with bifuran (or furan 2). Yes it killed my bio filter but saved some of my fish that looked near death the week before. My tank is clear of disease now with out having to tear down the tank and bleach everything. I have discus in the tank now.

If you can find metylene blue or pottasium permanganate then doing once or twice daily baths can help too.


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

When treating a disease there are two things you need on your side, good water quality an a fish's immune system.

Often times a fish's immune system is capable of fending off the disease on it's own. When the disease starts to win you need to slow it down so the fish can win.

When you start to over-compensate and mess with the water then you stress the fish more and the disease has a better chance to spread and kill..

Maroxy is not an antibiotic therefore it does not matter if the bacteria responds to gram negative or positive antibiotics. Different antibiotics work on different types of bacteria. The stuff in Maroxy works on everything pretty much the same way hydrogen peroxide does. For the most part, these treatments oxidize the bacteria and kills it. In the absence of Maroxy you can use Hydrogen peroxide for a bacterial disease treatment as well.. and kill your algae in the process. 

Potassium permanganate can also be used to control columnaris. That is the number one treatment for pond raised catfish with the disease. Again, no antibiotics. Problem with this stuff is.. it will sterilize the tank if used improperly.. but you can put it in the tank directly.

The copersafe has also been proven to work on the disease. Here is a link to more info.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2109.2011.02876.x/abstract

You guys need to remember, a lot of research is put into fish diseases and little to none of it was done for home aquariums. It is all being done by the aquaculture industry for the production of food fish. You just don't toss 1000 lbs of antibiotic into a 200 acre foot lake to treat the second most deadly bacterial disease affecting fish. It is not cost productive and oxidizes quickly requiring multiple doses. You have to find other ways to treat the disease that are effective and do the least amount of damage to the water quality. 

In most counties you can not buy antibiotics in fish stores... then what do you do? You look at oxidizers.. Hell you can also use colloidal silver solutions.. they work awesome and you can make them at home for micro cents a gallon.

At any rate... you have seen how bad things can get screwed up using antibiotics in an aquarium. Personally I feel the only time antibiotics should be used in an aquarium is in the use of antibiotic enriched feed. Trying to treat a 800 pond biomass with a 10 pack of pills is a bit unrealistic. (assumong a 100 gallon tank) With Columnaris you have to treat the entire system.. water and all.. as one single organism in order to get rid of it.


----------



## JSA (Jun 3, 2011)

Stay the course with your antibiotics. I can't remember if you are also using salt, but if not, you should add that as well. Once your antibiotic treatment is finished, you should continue the salt with daily 20% water changes for another week or two.

Columnaris is not a minor infection. It's been known to wipe out the stock of an entire LFS. The man I spoke with said it took them 6 weeks to get it under control. 

You want to be sure that the bacteria has been eliminated from your aquarium, or you will be fighting this again.

Julia


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I am staying the course on the antibiotics - I've already started, what's to lose. I'm losing all the fish anyhow. At this rate I'll be tearing down the tank & bleaching it soon. I'm down to 4 out of 11 cardinals, I've lost both rams, lost two black tetras, and 4 of the new rainbows. 4 of those fish died today while I was at work.
What really makes me mad is that I don't know how it happened. One day all is fine, one day it's falling apart. Other than a high ph (which I've read bacteria likes) my water was great. The 40 has no problems - this tank has had all of them. Either I brought in sick fish or plants, or perhaps it had something to do with the MGOPS used as a substrate?
I'd like to say I won't make this mistake again, but from what I've read columnaris is common in tanks and can harbor for great lengths. So how do you know if you quarantine long enough?
Makes my blood boil. And there's been no sign of damage to any of the fish except the first three...


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

> Stay the course with your antibiotics. I can't remember if you are also using salt, but if not, you should add that as well. Once your antibiotic treatment is finished, you should continue the salt with daily 20% water changes for another week or two.


It is a little late for that.

Remember when I said:



> When you are done cleaning the tank with bleach and starting over...


You just said:



> I'm losing all the fish anyhow. At this rate I'll be tearing down the tank & bleaching it soon. I'm down to 4 out of 11 cardinals, I've lost both rams, lost two black tetras, and 4 of the new rainbows. 4 of those fish died today while I was at work.


I would encourage you to do some reading on that site I sent you a link to. It has a lot of comprehensive information on dealing with disease that is outside the scope of the hobbyist hip pocket manual.

Also do some research and learn how antibiotics work and how much time they take to work. Also do some research on using oxidizers against treating bacterial infections and discover how quickly they work....

Why does bleach work so well? It oxidizes the bacteria and kills it... Hummm Same process... Why is it used in drinking water? Kills bacteria... but it does not kill you.

So in low concentrations oxidizers are effective against killing bacteria but not killing "higher forms of life" 

Why does maroxy work so well? It oxidizes bacteria and kills it. .. and it does not kill the fish.

I find it interesting that everyone says "stay the course with the antibiotics" and in the mean time your fish are dropping like flies...

Why aren't the antibiotics working?

Sorry to be so harsh but I AM trying to give you the advice that would have saved your fish!


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Fish challenged with F. columnare and treated with CuSO4 at 4.2 and 2.1 mg L−1 post challenge had mortalities of 6.4% and 18.3%, respectively, compared with the positive control, which had 90.2%

I don't understand the amount used, or how to covert it to the amount I would need for a 55g tank.
Is CuSO4 the same as CopperSafe, which is the only copper based product I can find? 
Maroxy is unavailable anywhere here, I would have to order it online. It will be too late by the time I get it.
At this rate of speed, my tank will probably be empty of fish within a few days. At first I'd hoped only weakened fish would die, but the speed at which this disease progresses is alarming and startling.
Don't worry bubbleboy, I don't think you're being harsh, I realize everyone here is trying to help me save the fish/tank.
Should all the fish die, is it even worth trying to disinfect the plants? It would be easier to start fresh, but I love my driftwood & rocks! Being non-living, I can wash them down with pure bleach, and the gravel too.
Oh, and one reason I see no harm in "staying the course" with the antibiotics is that they are compatible with CopperSafe, from what I've read. I've used them long enough to already have destroyed the beneficial bacteria if they are going to do so. 
I won't be able to get back out to the store until Wednesday anyhow - we'll see if there are any survivors by then. 
Thank you everyone - please don't hesitate to add anything I may learn from!


----------



## Leah (Jun 28, 2011)

This is something of a hijack from the issue of the OP's tank, but a continuation of the question of treating columnaris.


bubbleboy said:


> Sorry to be so harsh but I AM trying to give you the advice that would have saved your fish!


Bubbleboy, I don't think any treatment works 100% of the time, so "would have saved your fish" does seems to be reaching a bit and harsh. I like the information, however, and am going to try the treatment that you are recommending. I made the "didn't quarantine" error, ended up euthanizing one fish. None of the others have died, but it looks like one of them might have columnaris again. I saw it the night before Irene was coming through, but it's a bunch of Rasboras and I cannot tell them apart. Could not find the one that I saw some wisps on (near his mouth), didn't want to treat the entire tank AGAIN and ended up throwing in a large Indian Almond Leaf in hopes that that the tannins would boost all of their immune systems and turned the tank light off. I'll be in danger of potentially losing my electricity through this evening. I haven't fed them and couldn't quite cope with trying to medicate fish when I couldn't go out and get specific medications AND might lose power.

My understanding is that columnaris is alway present in the water but that fish usually only get sick from it when their immune system is compromised. It would help if I could tell the rasboras apart. I treated two of them in a hospital tank, thought they looked fine (it would also help if they would HOLD STILL for me to get a better look at them), put them back in, then ended up treating the entire tank when one of them got a lot of white wisps on him. I don't know if it was one of the ones I had treated before. I used the combination of marcyn 1 and 2. 8 rasboras in a well-planted 10g tank. My inclination is to set up a hospital tank and treat any who look sick when I turn the light back .... (I know it might seem shocking that I'm not trying to do something about it now, but my options are limited at the moment.) 

I'll read back through the posts, but, Bubbleboy, I think you had a couple of different suggestions that you thought were good plans, perhaps depending on what I can get a hold of most easily/quickly. I'll report back here what happens. I am in a different situation than the OP--I THINK that there are a couple of fish that keep on getting sick and I would just as soon not treat all of the fish with antibiotics repeatedly. Bubbleboy, if you don't mind, I'll PM you with any additional questions I have so as to not totally hijack this thread. 

I'm not even going to try to explain why I didn't quarantine the 2nd set of fish....

OP, I hope you can save some of your fish!

Thanks, 
Leah


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

I sent you the link so you could see that copper is a tested treatment for columnaris. They used copper sulfate in the test, Copersafe uses chelated copper but that has also proven to be effective and a little "kinder" to the tank and fish than the sulfate.

What you highlighted in blue are the results of the test. Without the copper the mortality was 90.2%

4.2 and 2.1 were the dose rates used in the test. 4.2PPM copper sulfate had the lowest mortality rate of only 6.4%

Just follow the instructions on the bottle and you will be fine.

The problem is... at this point there is little hope. It sounds like it has blown out of control.

The treatment I gave you needed to be done simultaneously. Better fish shops carry maroxy. I don't have a problem finding it locally and we are not a very big city.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks Leah, and I hope you ride the hurricane out well. BTW, I'm originally from Old Lyme, Ct.!
I am not seeing any fungus-like growth on the fish - are there times when columnaris just rapidly kills off fish, perhaps through gill infections? Some of the dead fish (for instance, three of the ones that died while I was at work today) get totally covered in a fungus-looking fuzz, quickly. It had to have happened within the hours I was at work. The ram looked perfect - color and all. Perhaps she had recently expired.
Could this have beed triggered by the 45% water change I did the day before this all blew up in my face? I'm still trying to understande what brought it on. Water parameters were fine, other than high ph which has never been an issue before.
It seems to me that many people posting have had one loss, maybe a few - but not like I am seeing. Others have mentioned losing 75% of their stock or more. Had I known it would be this devastating, I would have bought a hospital tank for all of them, and knocked the tank down & sterilized it.
Good luck to any of you struggling with this too!


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Here I only have a small lfs that carries little (far less than Petsmart does) and I have a Petsmart. Since this tank is probably a lost cause, I'll order the maroxy for the future - Petsmart was out of CopperSafe when I was there yesterday, but I will be sure to have it onhand in the "new" medicine chest I'm planning.
I am not near a true city at all - I'm rather rural. Slim pickins here...
I did find the article very interesting - I realized the mortality rate was 90.2% without treatment. It was a very recent test, too. Thanks for the link.


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

Leah, I made a couple suggestions just in case the OP had some of the things available. As you had mentioned before, columnaris spreads quickly. You don't have a lot to time to deal with it. Catch it early and it really is no big deal.. And yes, most people have it in their tanks and the fish can deal with it. Stress the fish and it explodes.

The reason oxidizers work so well for this bacteria is they work a lot faster than Antibiotics. Many antibiotics disrupt reproduction but don't kill the bacteria, it will need to live out its life cycle and die. Oxidizers like hydrogen peroxide, potassium permanganate, Maroxy, Chlorine, etc. have the ability to kill bacteria in a matter of minutes. Copper is not a oxidizer but it does work quickly and will help with any other beasties like gill flukes and ich to name a couple. Ich can explode when the fish get stressed.. so use it to protect against that secondary disease.

Like I mentioned before, nearly every disease will trigger a secondary.. Fungus is at the top of the list.. so treat for the disease you see and the possible secondary you have not seen but know could occur. Problem with antibiotics is they don't often treat the secondary. Even if they are effective in curing the primary disease, the secondary can kill the fish.

Here is a good article from the University of Florida that discusses the use of potassium permanganate when treating fish. It shows a bit more "proof" that my recommendations are really good advice and how effective oxidizers can be treating exactly what you have been dealing with, although there are much safer things to use than potassium permanganate the concept is still the same.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa027


----------



## Leah (Jun 28, 2011)

driftwoodhunter said:


> Thanks Leah, and I hope you ride the hurricane out well. BTW, I'm originally from Old Lyme, Ct.!
> I am not seeing any fungus-like growth on the fish - are there times when columnaris just rapidly kills off fish, perhaps through gill infections? Some of the dead fish (for instance, three of the ones that died while I was at work today) get totally covered in a fungus-looking fuzz, quickly. It had to have happened within the hours I was at work. The ram looked perfect - color and all. Perhaps she had recently expired.
> Could this have beed triggered by the 45% water change I did the day before this all blew up in my face? I'm still trying to understande what brought it on. Water parameters were fine, other than high ph which has never been an issue before.
> It seems to me that many people posting have had one loss, maybe a few - but not like I am seeing. Others have mentioned losing 75% of their stock or more. Had I known it would be this devastating, I would have bought a hospital tank for all of them, and knocked the tank down & sterilized it.
> Good luck to any of you struggling with this too!


It's always possible that there was something different about the water, assuming you use tap water plus water conditioner, which I think you said that you do. Sometimes the tap water can have something in it that isn't a problem for people, but is for fish. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't use tap water, but I have seen very experienced people suggest this as a possible cause when something has thrown a tank out of whack. I think you can call the water company and ask them if something different was added to or in the water that day.

It's also possible that you accidentally contaminated the water with something just enough to stress the fish and compromise their immune system: I list that as a possible cause for something that eventually killed a betta that I had. It looked like something caused permanent kidney damage, but it's not as if I did an autopsy on the poor guy. I'm careful, but it still could have happened. 

One of the major limitations we are dealing with as hobbyists is that we usually cannot be completely sure what is causing an illness in our fish--we aren't growing cultures and identifying a particular pathogen. And as bubbleboy says there can be secondary infections as well. I was reading about this the other night at 2:00AM before I decided to just turn the tank light off until after the storm. Maroxy was suggested in something that I read partially because it deals with such a wide array of pathogens. My head was swimming at that point, however! 

It's finally quiet, btw, I think I may be out of danger of losing power! The rasboras would NOT have liked losing their filter. 

Leah


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Good point about throwing off the immune systems - I did a 45% water change, then treated that tank with SafeGuard (fenbendazole) dewormer the same week for planaria. The reality of it is that the planaria was harmless and I over reacted. This was all done days before my columnaris outbreak.
Food for thought...


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

how is it going btw?



bubbleboy said:


> Here is a good article from the University of Florida that discusses the use of potassium permanganate when treating fish. It shows a bit more "proof" that my recommendations are really good advice and how effective oxidizers can be treating exactly what you have been dealing with, although there are much safer things to use than potassium permanganate the concept is still the same.
> 
> 
> 
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa027


yes strong oxidizers like pp are very useful and I even suggested doing methylene blue or pp bath twice a day in order to augment the antibiotic treatment. they are not however replacements for antibiotics that are absorbed throught the fish's skin like maracyn-2 and especially kanaplex, they can treat the infection internally too. And fwiw pp and methylene blue will kill beneficial bacteria faster than maracyn-2 or kanaplex combined. Maroxy is a pretty week oxidizer in the scheme of things also and I would not choose it over pp or methylene blue baths/treatments.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm setting myself up for a firing squad, I know it, but I'm going to be honest. I either made a mistake or not, and I know some folks here will let me know! lol It's a way to learn so I don't mind - just don't be rude! (I'm sensitive, and since I've already screwed this up, I'm extra touchy!)
Since the maracyn & maracyn 2 didn't seem to be doing anything, I decided to use the triple sulfa I'd bought, starting the day before yesterday (I finished the maracyn treatments too, today). The API triple sulfa says it is compatible with the maracyns, and it also works in high ph situations like I have (my ph was disabling the maracyn 2, and so I didn't feel I was benefiting from any gram negative meds). So, today was my second dose of the TS. I have to wait 24hrs then do a partial water change & dose two more days, and do another partial water change. I know the TS doesn't kill the bacteria, only interferes with it's reproduction, but today (fingers crossed!) is the first day I haven't had any deaths. Also for the first time the survivors are swimming about & not hiding, and they ate with their normal vigor. Maybe a false lull, but I hope it's a good sign. Of course, it could be their last hurrah, too.
I was impressed by the info on the link to the copper treatment and I'd try this first if I have another outbreak - which I'm expecting. Before I knew what was going on I'd used my tweezers in my other tank, a 40b. That was about 3 - 4 days ago. I'm hoping to have the CopperSafe on hand Wenesday, and the Kanaplex I ordered will also be here that day.
I have had small bits of fuzz growing on some of the gravel in the 55 tank (the originally contaminated one) so waiting to vacuum the tank is driving me nuts - but I feel I should follow the instructions to the letter. 
Now some (maybe all) of you will say I'm a dumb noob that is killing my fish by over medicating, but since I only had 8 - 9 fish left out off 33, I feel I had nothing to lose.
I HAVE learned some important things; 
1 - have separate sets of tools for each tank so cross contamination can't occur, 
2 - stop overfeeding! 
3 - don't panic and treat harmless conditions with H-bombs (I treated perfectly harmless planaria with dog dewormer and did a 45% water change, just because it creeped me out. Two days later the columnaris hit).
4 - don't waste precious time & money. When a product says it won't work in your tank because your ph is too high, believe it. I could have bought the hospital tank, quarantine tank, new fish & new plants/gravel for all the money I spent on meds. Next time, I'll have the quarantine & hospital tanks, and I can treat in smaller tanks and break down the main tank & sterilize it, if I have another outbreak.
5 - try the least toxic treatments first.

Everyone gave me thoughtful advice, and it prompted me to read all I could and follow links. I did a lot wrong, but I doubt that's so rare for a freaked-out newbie with a steep, sudden learning curve! In 35 years, I've never encountered anything other than ick - so this has been a shock. Almost as much of a shock as seeing pics of what fish TB can do to you! (Yuk - saw that for the first time while googling diseases)
So thanks you everybody!


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

Hey trusting your gut is not a bad thing. Triple sulfa is also effective I've used maracyn plus which issimilar. I would suggest getting some furan-2 and kanaplex (they have no pH issues and I did not think maracyn 2 did either, thought it was less effective with higher dGH not kH but I digress) and stick it in the freezer just in case another bomb hits, kensfish.com has them and his shipping is reasonable (they will last fine but you don't want to keep the maracyns as they can turn toxic when expired). I think it is good to have a number of medications in the cabinet: methylene blue or better potassium permanganate for baths, quick cure (for ick and other protozoan stuff), furan-2 and kanaplex (for emergencies), metronidazole and praziquantal for parasites. Also epsom salts and NaCl.

Now what I have learned the hard way is when I see something amiss I remove the fish to a QT tank and do twice daily water changes without medicating the water (sometimes with medicated baths) for a week and generally that is enough if you catch it soon enough.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

The kanapleax is on order, my lfs said it would be here Wed. I still haven't located and furan-2. I'm going up to Petco on Friday (it's a bit of a drive) perhaps I'll find it there. Otherwise I'll order it. I didn't realize you could freeze meds! 
Someone recently started a thread on TPT about what to have in a well stocked medicine cabinet, but I haven't been able to locate that thread so I appreciate your list. 
I was reading up on the whole "baths" thing with fish, and it sounds a bit tricky. Ha - it just goes to show how naive you can be when starting a tank. Fishkeeping is as difficult as any other pet. I was in Petsmart the other day and the college kids are moving in to start the fall semester. The place was packed, and all I heard were things like "ok, we got a tank, lets pick out some fish! How much are you going to spend? These are cool! (standing in front of cichlids) how about some of these too?" (moving to the koi). 
And I thought I had problems...


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

driftwoodhunter said:


> The kanapleax is on order, my lfs said it would be here Wed. I still haven't located and furan-2. I'm going up to Petco on Friday (it's a bit of a drive) perhaps I'll find it there. Otherwise I'll order it. I didn't realize you could freeze meds!
> Someone recently started a thread on TPT about what to have in a well stocked medicine cabinet, but I haven't been able to locate that thread so I appreciate your list.
> I was reading up on the whole "baths" thing with fish, and it sounds a bit tricky. Ha - it just goes to show how naive you can be when starting a tank. Fishkeeping is as difficult as any other pet. I was in Petsmart the other day and the college kids are moving in to start the fall semester. The place was packed, and all I heard were things like "ok, we got a tank, lets pick out some fish! How much are you going to spend? These are cool! (standing in front of cichlids) how about some of these too?" (moving to the koi).
> And I thought I had problems...


What size tank are you dosing I have a 10 pack box of Furan-2 and some BiFuran+ that isn't opened. Furan-2 and BiFuran+ are the same thing just different brands.

Craig


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I have two tanks - the 55g is the one I've been dosing - I still don't know if I'll have any survivors out of it. The tank I believe I cross-contaminated is a 40b. I'm just waiting to see what happens there...


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

I think the colunmaris came from the new fish you failed to quarantine, not from the dewormer.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

It was wrong not to quarantine, I realize the importance of it now - but the male ram and 3 of the cardinals had well established white fuzz the same day I added the new fish - I noticed it right away. I think it must have started prior to my adding the new fish. What shocked me so, was that the night before is when I did the 45% water change, and I didn't notice anything on the ram then. Can only guess about the cardinals - they hid most of the time and I didn't see them much. It may have started with them...if it came in with the rainbows, it blew up into the fungus looking fuzz in hours - which I suppose is possible, given how fast acute columnaris can apparently be. I lost a few rainbows too, but not until about 4 days later.


----------



## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Wow I read the whole thread and now my head is swimming! Out of all these meds i'm struggling to figure out which would be the best few meds for me to get to keep on hand? Deffinately understand to try and treat without antibiotics first though.

You sure have tried hard and have learned alot so I really hope your remaining fish make it for you.

Take care!


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

The minimum I would keep quick cure, prazipro and a bottle of bifuran/furan-2 in the fridge and epsom salts and regular salt. Just IMO others have other opinions on meds.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

The bottle of kanaplex I ordered is coming in tomorrow. I don't have central heat, just a window unit - so it still hits 80 in here. Should I refridgerate the kanaplex?
I haven't heard of prazipro yet, I'll google it tonight.

Ona good note, day 2 without any losses! I just did a 25% water change, per the triple sulfa directions. We'll see if the shock of the w/c does any of them in. This time I used Prime, instead of the Top Fin water conditioner I usually use. I was surprised at how little you use, I'm used to capfuls of other products...I also added some bacteria supplement.
Fingers crossed!


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

if you are not going to use the kanaplex yes I would refrigerate it. prazipro is just a convenient form of praziquantel which is a very safe anti-parasite medicine. prime is great, google seachem safe, it is the solid form of prime. you can get 1 kg of the stuff for $25 and it literally treats 200,000 gallons of water.


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Also after googling around on the Columnaris seems as though it can take as much as 6 weeks to get past it. I'm treating for it myself. Got my Altums in 2 weeks ago, the first week I treated and they were looking great so I didn't continue with a second treatment. Well I've lost one and 8 of them look pretty badly infected. Started another round of Furan-2 and General Cure, I will probably keep this up for atleast 2 more weeks to try and beat the disease out. 

There are several treatments including a Methylene Blue dip which may work but I will stick to the Furan-2 and General cure combo and hope for the best.

Craig


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Ouch! If I remember correctly, Altums aren't cheap, either. 
I've been spending a lot of time recently looking at angelfish sites that sell fish - I've always wanted angelfish since I was a kid, but I've heard they can be difficult. I've seen some half wilds that really catch my eye. Zebras, too. I'm partial to stripes myself. Don't like rounded fins or veils. I like the sharp, pointy look - lol.
I hope you can beat the columnaris without losses like I had. I was a little over the top & culled fish I didn't think were going to make it. I learned another lesson too; when scaping, be sure you can reach all parts of the tank. It was very, very hard to get some of the fish out. I won't make that mistake in future tanks! 
Tomorrow I start another two-day round of triple sulfa, and that will finish what they consider a full dose. It says I can repeat if necessary, I haven't made up my mind if I will or not. I have the kanaplex on order, but I'm also very, very intersted in trying the coppersafe. The article I read in the link on treating columnaris is ponds (fish farming) was interesting. You can't argue with their results. It's true it would be costly and unpractical to treat huge fish farm ponds with antibiotics.
Please keep adding to this thread, or start another one if you prefer, on your progress if you don't mind. I'd like to compile all the info I can on actual results from people that have dealt with, or are dealing with, columnaris. Everyone has their favorite concoction and I'd like to be able to compare notes. I think it could help a lot of us.


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

Nope they are definitely not cheap, I will post my tales in here as things progress.

Craig


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

Another thing you all need to consider is there are strains of columnaris that are resistant to antibiotics due to the consistent over-use by fish farms in holding tanks. Fish out of Singapore and Malaysia are prone to have this resistant strain. 

It's odd but during this thread one of my I werneri breeders developed a nice beard of the stuff and one of his eyes turned white.. Dosed the tank with 2ml Hydrogen peroxide per gallon and today it was 95% gone... (So was the algae)

In all my years of treating fish for every disease imaginable, Antibiotics were always the last choice for treatment. It takes so long for them to work in an aquarium because there is so much bacteria in the system.. I just honestly do not understand why they would be someone's_ first_ choice. 

Everybody commenting here about antibiotics and how good they are... you really need to read this.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084

But I suppose the research the University of Florida did for the ornamental fish industry here is not very good so I guess all we should do is run out and buy boxes and boxes of antibiotics.. Maybe if we all went in on it we could get a volume discount?


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

So, let me ask a super newbie question. (can I get a shirt that says "Super Newbie")? lol
How do you measure mls when treating a tank? Are there eye droppers that have mls printed on them? Or little cups? I have no way of measuring out things like you did the hydrogen peroxide, and this is something I feel I have to learn about. 
Thanks!
Cindy


----------



## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

bubbleboy said:


> Another thing you all need to consider is there are strains of columnaris that are resistant to antibiotics due to the consistent over-use by fish farms in holding tanks. Fish out of Singapore and Malaysia are prone to have this resistant strain.
> 
> It's odd but during this thread one of my I werneri breeders developed a nice beard of the stuff and one of his eyes turned white.. Dosed the tank with 2ml Hydrogen peroxide per gallon and today it was 95% gone... (So was the algae)
> 
> ...


Well considering I'm note dealing with a single farm rasied fish I'm dealing with all wild caught fish from Brazil or Columbia. Also the fihs I'm dealing with in the wild come from a ph of 4.5-5 with no TDS and when they arrive in the US the importer tosses them into a ph of 7.6 with a TDS 885. which makes them extremely susceptable to columnaris. After alot of research and talking with the exporter and people with alot of experiece with Altums it is highly recommended to hit the tank with Antibiotics due to teh unknown pathegoens taht they may carry. 

I like how you carry a holy than thou chip on your shoulder as there is always more then one way to skin a cat. Even if you google columnaris there are alot of varring opinions on the methods that can be used and there effectiveness. Lots of research as well on how long it can take to get rid of it some say even as long as 6 weeks to compeltely cure it from a system.

As far as the antibiotics I use I buy them in bulk as I treat a huge tank and alot of fish at once but only for the minimal amount of time it takes to rid them of there ailments, as for my biofilter they aren't nearly as useful at a ph of 5 as the fish aren't affected by the ammonium that is created as they are by high ph water where ammonia is much more deadly. Most bacteria has a hard time surviving in the low ph waters taht my tank is run at so the bio filter doesn't do nearly as much.

Craig


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

1 teaspoon is 5 ML or Milliliters. 1 Tablespoon is 14.7 ML. One cup is 236 ML


----------



## NJAquaBarren (Sep 16, 2009)

Columnaris moves too fast to be anything but ruthless treating it. I used tri-sulfa which stopped the losses. Still lost half the tank in 36 hours from identifying the first fish with symptoms. 6 of those hours were spent figuring out what I had and getting to the store. 

Now I keep it on hand.


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

driftwoodhunter said:


> So, let me ask a super newbie question. (can I get a shirt that says "Super Newbie")? lol
> How do you measure mls when treating a tank? Are there eye droppers that have mls printed on them? Or little cups? I have no way of measuring out things like you did the hydrogen peroxide, and this is something I feel I have to learn about.
> Thanks!
> Cindy


Yes you can get droppers with ML on them.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Thanks bubbleboy and wendyjo, I'll look for droppers, too. 
I was overly hopeful - I set myself up. I had two days of no deaths, and did another triple sulfa treatment today. According to directions, it's two days of treatment, a 25% water change & a 24 hour break (no meds) then repeat = 5 days total. Today is day 3 for me, so it's the day I started triple sulfa again after yesterday's water change. Came home from work now to find 2 of my remaining 3 black tetras with their tail covered in puffy white fuzz. Just culled them. The last tetra looks ok, as do the remaining 9 rainbows. Bet that won't last long. I read somewhere not to mix sulfa & copper, so the coppersafe is out - even if Petsmart got some in, which I don't know. At this point I wouldn't care if all the fish died, so I could break down the tank. I'm debating over going back to work to pick up a 10g hospital tank. I don't know if I could add Prime to the water & add the fish to the tank, or if that would just stress them out totally & finish them off sooner. If they lived I could break down the 55. I can't bear the idea of buying more treatments! I've already blown over $100 for nothing! 
I have no idea what to do now - I may ride it out & start all over.


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

yes it can be tough. I think the original advice way back last week was to buy a QT tank from walmart. You could have got 2 10g's kits or 1 20g kit plus a few bottles of kanamycin and bifuran for $100. live and learn. prime will not harm fish btw just make sure you run an airstone in the hospital tank.


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

bubbleboy said:


> Everybody commenting here about antibiotics and how good they are... you really need to read this.
> 
> http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084
> 
> But I suppose the research the University of Florida did for the ornamental fish industry here is not very good so I guess all we should do is run out and buy boxes and boxes of antibiotics.. Maybe if we all went in on it we could get a volume discount?


There is not all that much of interest in that article. The article says to use antibiotics wisely, ie know what you are treating and do not overuse them, that would be common sense. An advanced case of Columnaris IMO calls for QTing and the use of the proper antibiotics. I have my opinion you have yours, no need to get condescending.


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

So why didn't the antibiotics work? Why are the fish still dieing? Why can I treat this disease with the items I mentioned and not have anywhere near the problems the OP and others have had?

The point I am trying to make is that there are far better ways to deal with this disease. 99.99% of the people on the forum do not understand how antibiotics work.

They do not kill the bacteria so until you kill the bacteria, the bacteria is going to keep killing your fish.

Why on earth would you want to use an antibiotic that takes up to 14 days to be effective on a disease that can kill in 48 Hours????? THAT I really do not understand.

When you want to kill bacteria on your toilet do you clean it with antibiotics or do you use oxidizers like chlorine? Did you happen to read any of the other articles I posted links to?

Here is one from the USDA that talks about potassium and copper treatment... summary, copper worked better

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?seq_no_115=265439


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

So, is it possible to put the remaining fish (2 black tetras and 9 celebes rainbows) in a newly set up quarantine tank, if it is treated with Prime and Stability, and filtration? I am still thinking about getting one of the 10g kits we sell at Walmart - it would only be $25.00. Then I could tear down the 55. Or should I continue treating the 55 (as I would be the 10g - with triple sulfa. My kanaplex didn't come in due to the hurricane. Lfs said next Wed instead). I doubt the 55 is ever going to be right, but I don't know if moving the fish to a new tank not cycled will be too stressful. That would be a lot of fish in a 10g, will Prime & Stability stabilize the tap water for them and could they stay in it while I sterilize & reset up the 55? Or should I just keep doing what I'm doing, and see wheer the chips fall?

PS - I just saw your new post, bubbleboy. I am going to petco tomorrow, and I'm hoping they have coppersafe there. I would use it in the quarantine tank if I get one, and tear down the 55. Or do you think it could kill all the bacteria in a 55? (I really want to rescape it anyhow) I should add that this is a dirt tank, and I don't know if the bacteria will survive coppersafe deep in the subsoil.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I just read the new link, and it repeats a theme I've read elsewhere, that permaganate works best if used at the very onset, it becomes significantly less effective after fish have full exposure to the bacteria. I have nothing to lose and everything to gain by trying copper...


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

So I am curious Craigthor, what if the strain of Columnaris you have in your tank or comes with your fish has built a resistance to antibiotics such as the strains that come from Singapore and Malaysia? Do you deal with fish stores and wholesales that import fish from Asia? Nearly all of them do.. then they ALL are going to have the potential this resistant strain will be introduced to other fish in their facility.

Then what? Use what works on all strains like the copper and oxidizers or just hope for the best and hope you are treating fish that do not have pathogens that have become immune to antibiotics?

Why is our world running out of antibiotics for humans? Because of the over use of them for treating everything under the sun bacterial by people that do not know what they are doing with them.

Many bacteria acquire resistance to one or more of the antibiotics to which they were formerly susceptible.

Example: In the U.S. in the decade from 1985–1995, resistance of Shigella (which causes gastrointestinal illness) to ampicillin grew from 32% to 67%. And, while only 7% of these isolates were resistant to the combination of sulfamethoxazole and trimethoprim at the start of the decade, that figure had grown to 35% by the end of the decade.

Bacteria develop resistance by acquiring genes encoding proteins that protect them from the effects of the antibiotic. In some cases the genes arise by mutation; in others, they are acquired from other bacteria that are already resistant to the antibiotic. The genes are often found on plasmids which spread easily from one bacterium to another — even from one species of bacterium to another.

Examples:

Synthesis of the enzyme penicillinase — or other beta-lactamases — provides protection from the beta-lactam antibiotics. These enzymes break the beta-lactam ring. Likewise synthesis of cephalosporinases defeats the cephalosporins.

Defeating quinolones:
Some bacteria do this by modifying their DNA gyrase. Others, e.g., Mycobacterium tuberculosis, develop quinolone resistance by synthesizing a protein that resembles a short length of DNA. This protein binds the gyrase so it cannot form the DNA/gyrase complex that is the target of quinolone action.

Some bacteria synthesize "pumps" in their plasma membrane through which they remove antibiotics like tetracyclines from the interior of the cell. Bacteria may methylate their ribosomes obscuring the target of antibiotics (e.g., erythromycin) that ordinarily bind to and inactivate the ribosome — or conversely they may enzymatically modify the antibiotic (e.g., kanamycin) so it can no longer "see" its ribosomal target.

Bacteria may modify the structure of their peptidoglycan wall and thus avoid the inhibitory effects of antibiotics like cycloserine. 

An alarming number of human pathogens have acquired genes to combat all the presently-used antibiotics except vancomycin and recently vancomycin-resistant bacteria have appeared. These multidrug-resistant strains are particularly common in hospitals where antibiotic use is heavy, and the patients often have weakened immune systems.


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

I would just move the fish, treat them, clean the tank and start over. I am curious, how long did you have the rainbows before this outbreak occurred?


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I saw the first symptoms (the white fungus looking ram in my op) the same day I added the rainbowss.
The timeline went like this;
A = 3 days of dog dewormer treatmant for planaria & hydra. (knew I had fish on order coming in that week)
B = Did 45% water change on day 4.
C = picked up celebes rainbows in the late afternoon of day 4.
D = Saw the cottony ram that night, which was the night I did my OP. I was actively searching for him because he was hiding. One week later I've lost 3 black tetras, 10 cardinals (tho I haven't seen the survivor in 24 hrs) 2 blue rams, and 6 rainbows. Any that had the cottony look I culled, I didn't see a point in trying to save them as they went down so fast. 
I just did my last triple sulfa dose, and a quick look didn't turn up any dead, but I didn't leave the light on long because the rainbows are so terrified of me. (it's still dark this morning) They panic & dart around slamming into the glass - swimming the length of the 55 to do it. Are rainbows always this skittish? They are hard to feed because they run & hide in a corner when ever I even walk be the tank. The food mostly sinks before they venture out. I've been feeding very, very lightly while this is going on, they may starve! They are super active if they don't see me, but just about kill themselevs on the glass when I walk within 4 feet of the tank. Maybe it's beacuse eveytime I come near, I yell "Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!" ; )

Being sensitive to water conditions, the ram may have been weakened by the dewormer & water change. Seeing how fast columnaris moves, it could have come in on the rainbows - the speed _is_ shocking.
I went back to the lfs where I bought them to pick up the kanaplex I ordered - no go because of Irene, btw. Reodered for next week now - and they had the sickest tanks I'd ever seen there. Several dead fish in each tank, dead bettas (or appearing dead, at the surafce on their sides) in those obscene little cups that hang inside the tanks. One tank that shocked me was full (packed) of the biggest guppies I've ever seen several of the had spinal deformities that made the look like "S" hooks - unable to swim, foating near the top. One of the most deformed was dead, floating on the surface. Three, including the dead one which may have been partailly eaten, had big red sores/wounds. I admit I don't know crap about fish diseases, but I though it might be TB. I went to the young kid that works there - the whole shop is run by younger college age people, I rarely see the owner - I took him aside & quietly said "I'm not tyring to sound like a jerk, but in one of your tanks I saw..." he cut me off and said sarcastically "let me guess, dead fish?" That ticked me off. So I finished saying "NO, I think you may have TB in one of your guppy tanks." He looked at me and said "Oh, well. Maybe. So? We get fish in from people all the time, they donate them. We can't know what ever fish has." and he shrugged and turned away from me, like saying this conversation's over.
I made up my mind I'd never buy anything from them again.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I decided I am going to get the 10g sick tank today & breakdown the 55. To steriiize it, do I simply wash it with straight bleach? Is that safe on the silicone? Is it possible to sterilize the FloraMax/pea gravel, or should I toss it. I'd rather not risk bringing diseased items back in just to be cheap and to save a few $$. What about the heater, HOB filter, bubble wand, rocks & plants. The plants I wish I could save. It's 3 anubia nanas, one giant anubia, cabomba, a red melon sword, some cool crypts (including some HUGE brown ones I got in a RAOK) and a red tiger lily. The stem plants, hornwort, & dwarf water lettuce I could toss. (love the DWL, but I can find more on S-n-S I think.) If I have too, I'll toss them all. What about my driftwood, is that something that can be sterilized or does the water soaked all through it stay contaminated?
If I can swing it, I may buy a new 55 at the Petco sale while I'm there today and then I can take my time cleaning the sick 55. (but I really want two 29s! They are holding them for me)
Thanks!
Cin


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

One last question this morning, before I have to get ready to go to Petco;
I'm buying a 10g kit from Walmart for the sick tank. It comes with a heater, HOB, hood & light. Since it's a sick tank can I forgo the gravel, leave it bare bottom, and paint the outside glass black on the bottom (to give the fish orientation), as well as paint the back and sides? That would leave it only clear on the front. I though the dark sides might help calm sick fish. Too much? Would simple plastic plants for cover be a good to destress? They can be removed & bleached easily - I'd rather not use real plants, hoping the HOB will be enough filtration. How do you set up a sick tank?
Thank you!


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

I just have a sponge filter in mine but a cycled filtered is not necessarily needed if you do large water changes everyday with prime. You can always take a bit of cycled media out of your main filter or store extra bits of sponge in your main tank to use when needed.


----------



## BrentD (Dec 11, 2008)

I know this may not be too helpful as it's really hindsight, but it might shed some insight on the original cause.

Think about this: What do bacteria eat? Answer: Normally waste and decaying detritus of various sorts.

Now if your tank has a bad infestation of planaria or some other sort of worm that lives in the gravel and you do the equivalent of dropping a nuke with the dog dewormer, you've suddenly flooded your substrate with decaying worm bodies. The bacteria normally present in the soil go hyper-active on the feast rapidly increasing their population the water column. In addition, all these feasting "bad" bacteria are going to be producing waste products just like your fish do. Your biological filter is in equilibrium with the established bio-load and the good bacteria can't multiply as fast as the bad so the filter can't cope with the surge in waste products in the filter. So now the fish gets stressed and it's immune system is compromised. Then you do a large water change which might cause additional stress to an already stressed fish due to rapid change in water parameters.

What it all boils down to is that a single change upset the established balance of the contained ecosystem. It seems like every thread I've read on here about columnaris always starts off with some seemingly innocuous change to routine that sets of a chain reaction.

Now all that being said I think I tend to agree with bubbleboy in that it's going to be even harder for the equilibrium to reestablish with more drastic changes to the environment. I also think the key is acting early. Start the least invasive broad-spectrum treatments at the very first sign of trouble and you stand a much better chance of avoiding a complete meltdown.

I know that's probably not very helpful now, but maybe it'll help someone else avoid the problem in the future.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

BrentD, it's all helpful. I don't believe we can get too much info or advice. I never thought about the connection of dead worm bodies (or even the lack of their being there to eat detritus). Anything that makes me put on my thinking cap is welcome!


----------



## Nubster (Aug 9, 2011)

This thread has been an eye opener since my new fish in my new tank are sick with what appears to be columnaris. Lost three fish that appeared healthy and I have two that white fuzz on their back. I just happened to have a box of Furan 2 so I started treatment with that...hopefully I caught it in time. I need to get more to complete the full course since I'm treating a 75 gallon tank. I didn't have a sick tank either but I might grab one tomorrow so that I can treat a smaller column of water and then nuke the 75 gallon tank with bleach or something to kill off the stuff that is still in there. I will preserve and treat my filter media however in the small tank so that I can just return it to the big tank when treatments are done so I can hopefully avoid having to go through another 8 week cycle. That's the plan anyways...thinking outloud here I guess.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Nubster,
I hope you don't have columnaris, but I will say one thing. Since this, my first experience with anything other than ick, the importance of a small quarantine tank & a hospital tank will never be underestimated by me again.
I've been treating a 55g tank and it's cost me a fortune. I could have bought the other two tank setups and then some, with the $$ I've spent. Even if nothing else dies, I don't trust the tank & want to break it down.
Godd luck with whatever you are treating, keep us updated if you will!
Cindy


----------



## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

So looking at your time line... My first comment will be.. Are you familiar with typhoid Mary? Goolgle her to read the story about her. I had a suspicion it was your celebese rainbows that were the carriers of the columnaris.. most of them are coming out of singapore/maylasia.

Rams are NOTORIOUS for being infected with columnaris before anything else. Your one-two punch with the wormer (killing the worms and increasing the bioload) weekend the rams immune system (since it is so sensitive anyway) and the rainbows gave you the columnaris gift... Their immune systems have been dealing with the columnaris and have built a strong resistance to it and that is why they lived while everything else died... If you read the story about typhoid Mary, then you will understand what I am talking about.

Your rainbows were the carriers of the columnaris.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

I am familiar with Typhoid Mary (I've found her story interesting since I was a kid, as probably most kids do)
Having previously been exposed to columnaris would explain why all the other fish succumbed so fast, yet nearly all the rainbows have survived. I wasn't surprised the rams went so fast, I've read they are delicate to water parameters. 
I have the Coppersafe now, and I want to treat the 55 with it. I hesitate to move the remaining fish to the new quarantine tank, since it's only been set up a matter of hours. If I still have survivors when the tank is more stable I'd like to move the fish & break down the 55.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, I am going to move the fish to the 10g tank and break down the 55 - I'll have to wait until tomorrow or Monday (I'm off from work on Fri & Sat) because I don't have anything to put my plants in. I'll buy a tub tomorrow. Good thing I work at Walmart, where we sell EVERYthing (or so our customers think). I'll have to remove the plants and hardscape & drain a good bit of water to catch the fish! Dang things are lightning fast - lol. I looked like an idiot trying to catch them - it only stressed them out. I will treat the fish in the 10g with the copper, rather than the 55, so as not to waste even more $$...
After all the losses, it feels really good to be starting fresh! As I look at the 55 now, I only see imaginary filth, waiting to consume anything I bring to it.
I'll also do a totally different hardscape - I learned the hard way how difficult it is to net sick fish or net dead ones if the scape is in the way. While vacuuming for my water change today I moved two rocks that were side-by-side, and a 1/3 decayed, fuzzball of a former fish was wedged in there. I never noticed it even when scouring the tank with a flashlight. Just goes to show you...
Yes, this has been a disaster, but what a learning experience! While reading up on columnaris (which I had never heard of) I also read up on several other tank problems I never heard of. 
I read several interesting articles that led me to think beyond the accepted norm, beyond small (by comparison) fishtank aquatics, and to think about the bigger picture. Where are these diseases coming from, what about built up resistances, small vs. large scale treatments, etc. It's actually helped me grow as a hobbyist.


----------



## wendyjo (Feb 20, 2009)

Using 2 very large nets will help catch them. Put one against the wall and use the other to herd them into it. The larger the better.


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

That's a good idea! Thanks!


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

What temp is your tank at? Columnaris episodes increase every summer, virtually every tank has Flavobacterium columnare present at all times, so you don't need a carrier to bring it in, you just need the right conditions in the tank for it to proliferate. You are getting a lot of mixed info on this subject.


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Nubster said:


> then nuke the 75 gallon tank with bleach or something to kill off the stuff that is still in there.


Oh geez, please don't do that and don't listen to anyone who tells you to, they're paranoid. Columnaris is present no matter what you do, just take care of your fish and quarantine new ones from now on. Keep your water clean and temp from getting too high. Read some of these articles to better understand the nature of what you're dealing with... http://www.google.com/search?q=colu...s=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


----------



## driftwoodhunter (Jul 1, 2011)

My 55 doesn't have a thermometer (silly, I keep forgetting to get get one) but the 40 in the same room, not 12 feet away, is reading 75 today. I live in a single wide mobile home and use a small window a/c unit. I know for a fact the on two of the outbreak days I forgot to turn it on as I left for work - I leave at 6am so that's easy to do - and it hit over 85 in the room those days. I thought at the time temps helped trigger the problem. Or should I say aggrevate it. 
I did get a lot of conflicting info, but that was very helpful to me. It gave me a ton of stuff to look into. I think also that depending on the strain and severity of the columnaris, treatments might differ. 
I haven't gotten around to breaking down the 55, mostly because the fish deaths stopped, and I keep forgetting to buy what I need to treat & hold the plants I want to try & keep.
I'll be moving the 55 in 10 days or so to another part of the room. I need to remove the rocks & most of the water to move it - and I want to totally rescape it - so I'll be breaking it down anyhow.


----------



## CKJ (Oct 3, 2008)

Hoping this new start is a much better one and can't wait to see your 55 gal come back to life again. You've learned tons and others have learned from your post like me. Best of luck to you!


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

I am not surprised to hear about the temp spike, because I'm all too familiar with this. Hey, it happens to the best of us. I'm also familiar with people getting conflicting info on this site about anything that has to do with fish and not plants. Honestly, and I mean no offense to anyone personally, but this is the last place you want to take disease info from. You will get all the archaic practices mixed with regurgitated web nonsense from around the globe. You're just as well off getting info from a pet store.


----------



## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

My Otto also has columnaris, I think. Been treating it for a week and a half now. Just have it in a bucket of water with 2tsp of aquarium salt and he's been improving. Slowly. The rest of my ottos are still good.


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

jaidexl said:


> You will get all the archaic practices mixed with regurgitated web nonsense from around the globe. You're just as well off getting info from a pet store.


There was a fish site called aquamaniacs that is gone now, they had it figured out. There was a dedicated disease forum moderated by people highly knowledgeable in disease and the proper meds/ treatments. They often had specimens sent out for biopsy. They ran that forum in a way that promoted one single treatment per case and did not allow too many outside opinions, they did not entertain the idea of holistic, herbal remedies or salt or old meds that everything is resistant too like TC. Sounds elitist or counterproductive but the idea was to keep newcomers' heads from spinning with too much info, the main objective was saving the fish. Sure there are many ways to handle a specific problem, but when you're caught off guard and stressed, that last thing you need is ten differing opinions on what approach to take. Next thing you know you have a person saying they are so confused and just want the best for the fish, they have three different treatments going at the same time at the advice of six different people, and the fish is the victim of it all as it stresses from improper or over medication while forum members have a pissing match about who knows more about what. That's why a forum needs knowledgeable mods handling an advice thread like this with an iron fist, it's about compassion and dedication to the fish and making this hobby less convoluted.


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

jkan0228 said:


> My Otto also has columnaris, I think. Been treating it for a week and a half now. Just have it in a bucket of water with 2tsp of aquarium salt and he's been improving. Slowly. The rest of my ottos are still good.


Who advised you to treat an Oto with salt?? Seriously, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. You are probably stressing it more than before. You were better off with kanaplex or H2O2. Anything really that doesn't contain salt.


----------



## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

jaidexl said:


> Who advised you to treat an Oto with salt?? Seriously, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. You are probably stressing it more than before. You were better off with kanaplex or H2O2. Anything really that doesn't contain salt.


Rachel advised me to


----------



## lipadj46 (Apr 6, 2011)

jaidexl said:


> Who advised you to treat an Oto with salt?? Seriously, this is exactly what I'm talking about here. You are probably stressing it more than before. You were better off with kanaplex or H2O2. Anything really that doesn't contain salt.


so do have any advice or just insults to throw around?


----------



## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

Salt may not be the most effective treatment, but it does often work.

And it's not the presence of salt that stresses sensitive fish like otos, so much as sudden changes in salinity. Add the salt gradually in small increments over a day's time; rather than all at once. Works just like a drip acclimation, by allowing a fish to adapt to the new water parameters, rather than shocking it.


----------



## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

DarkCobra said:


> Salt may not be the most effective treatment, but it does often work.
> 
> And it's not the presence of salt that stresses sensitive fish like otos, so much as sudden changes in salinity. Add the salt gradually in small increments over a day's time; rather than all at once. Works just like a drip acclimation, by allowing a fish to adapt to the new water parameters, rather than shocking it.


I added the salt over the period of a day.


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

lipadj46 said:


> so do have any advice or just insults to throw around?


Sorry, not trying to insult anyone, I just think there is always something better to use on otos than salt.


----------



## jkan0228 (Feb 6, 2011)

Well I'm using it and am slowly getting to success.


----------



## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

jkan0228 said:


> Well I'm using it and am slowly getting to success.


Yes but you are probably measuring success visually and the bacteria will certainly succumb to the salt, but the question is whether or not the oto is feeling stressed form it as well. I will leave this one alone because I don't like to get people switching up in mid treatment, but I just hope you don't lose the oto soon afterward. Hopefully the slow addition was the answer to success.


----------

