# Inexpensive Substrate



## fishsandwitch (Apr 20, 2008)

mineralized soil


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

SMS/Turface would be the better choice over generic topsoil as it's inert
and can add anything you want in the way of ferts. SMS/Turface can be
mixed with whatever you want (Eco/Flourite/Aqua Soil) to beef up it up
and save money or just use it by itself.

I would recomend that if you do use SMS/Turface that you use about
2" of it and then 1" of pool filter sand to hold it down.

- Brad


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## MikeP_123 (Aug 31, 2008)

Im using aquariumplants.com substrate. It seems to have good marks and is cheaper than eco-complete by a pretty good amount.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

MikeP_123 said:


> Im using aquariumplants.com substrate. It seems to have good marks and is cheaper than eco-complete by a pretty good amount.



That's SMS/Turface re-branded so yes it's good but a bit more expensive
due to adding a middleman but that middleman has better customer service
than Oildry.

- Brad


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## MissMTS (Oct 8, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> SMS/Turface would be the better choice over generic topsoil as it's inert
> and can add anything you want in the way of ferts. SMS/Turface can be
> mixed with whatever you want (Eco/Flourite/Aqua Soil) to beef up it up
> and save money or just use it by itself.
> ...


Thanks for the info  Where can I purchase SMS/Turface from? Do you know how much it costs? I know that I can get pool filter sand at Home Depot or Walmart.



MikeP_123 said:


> Im using aquariumplants.com substrate. It seems to have good marks and is cheaper than eco-complete by a pretty good amount.


I just looked it up and it looks pretty decent  Did shipping cost an arm and a let though? It is a lot cheaper than eco-complete which is definetly a plus


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## MissMTS (Oct 8, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> That's SMS/Turface re-branded so yes it's good but a bit more expensive
> due to adding a middleman but that middleman has better customer service
> than Oildry.
> 
> - Brad


Thats good to know! Where can you get Turface from?


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

Schutz's aquasoil @ home depot. People recommend turface all the time but it pretty hard to find.


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## mistergreen (Dec 9, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> That's SMS/Turface re-branded so yes it's good but a bit more expensive
> due to adding a middleman but that middleman has better customer service
> than Oildry.
> 
> - Brad


don't forget shipping cost


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## MissMTS (Oct 8, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> Schutz's aquasoil @ home depot. People recommend turface all the time but it pretty hard to find.


Thanks for the info  Would I use it just like Turface with 2 inches of soil plus 1 inch of pool filter sand on top of it? I just looked on Home Depot's website and couldn't find it, but maybe they will have it in the store.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

The main website to find a Turface distributor is:
[ http://www.profileproducts.com/corporate/wheretobuy ]

also you can check your local Lesco store for SMS (Soilmaster Select)
Charcoal which is there old product that Oildry does not make anymore
but there's allot of it setting on shelves still.

Both should be around $23'ish dollars for a 50lb bag.

~

Keep in mind when your looking for them there are multiple products
with those names so you want to ask for the one that do not have
fertilizers and moisture control additives. 

- Brad


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## MissMTS (Oct 8, 2008)

Looks like there are a few places to get Turface not to far from me 

Thanks for the advice everyone. I really appreciate the help


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> don't forget shipping cost


Yep shipping sucks so find a local Lesco or Turface store to
pick it up locally. SMS is around $18 to $20 and Turface is
around $20 to $25 for 50lb bags.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mistergreen said:


> Schutz's aquasoil @ home depot. People recommend turface all the time but it pretty hard to find.


Yup Schultz's aquasoil is great stuff I've used it in the past but it's
allot more expensive than SMS/Turface in smaller bag and it's just
as hard to find in the middle of the country since our HD's doesn't
carry it.

- Brad


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

You can get Turface Pro League Grey on Lesco.com (seed>mulch>soil amendment>clay>>end of page 2), have them rout it to your local distributor for pickup just like the old SMS method.


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## Down_Shift (Sep 20, 2008)

+1 on the SMS and make sure you get something to weigh it down!!


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## inkslinger (Dec 28, 2003)

I paid around $14. for a 50lb bag got 2 for my 110g tank , I'm think of taking off 2inch an adding a layer of ECO to mix


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

Helpful thread. My LFS has eco-complete for 32.99, the guy was willing to give it to me for 28 still pretty expensive for 20 lb bag as I would need 4 to fill my 55 gallon tank.

Now that I read this thread, thinking of going with the SMS turface, there's a few distributors nearby it seems. To weigh it down though, what other things besides pool filter sand would you guys recommend? I want the color to be charcoal / black to contrast nicely with the green plants. Would eco-complete on the top layer be enough to weigh turface down?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mrwindupbird said:


> Helpful thread. My LFS has eco-complete for 32.99, the guy was willing to give it to me for 28 still pretty expensive for 20 lb bag as I would need 4 to fill my 55 gallon tank.
> 
> Now that I read this thread, thinking of going with the SMS turface, there's a few distributors nearby it seems. To weigh it down though, what other things besides pool filter sand would you guys recommend? I want the color to be charcoal / black to contrast nicely with the green plants. Would eco-complete on the top layer be enough to weigh turface down?



I was going to recommend ADA's Decorative Sand but they don't seem to
carry there charcoal version anymore. Have you looked at Fluorite Black Sand?
It's pricey at $21.99 for 15lb bags but it looks really nice a good
picture of it is:

[ http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4870 ]

then look at the "Styles" section in the right hand side near the bottom
and click on the 'Black Sand Flourite' picture.

- Brad


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> I was going to recommend ADA's Decorative Sand but they don't seem to
> carry there charcoal version anymore. Have you looked at Fluorite Black Sand?
> It's pricey at $21.99 for 15lb bags but it looks really nice a good
> picture of it is:
> ...


How many bags would I need?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

That depends on how big the tank is? 

Luckily your only needing about an inch to cover the Turface
so it shouldn't be more than two bags unless you've got a
monster sized tank.


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

It's a 55 gallon, standard dimensions. It's either that or a 20 lb bag of Eco-complete.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mrwindupbird said:


> It's a 55 gallon, standard dimensions. It's either that or a 20 lb bag of Eco-complete.


I'd say it's going to be the same amount for ether product probably 1.5 to
2 bags of ether as you would need four bags to add a 2" layer of substrate
in those quantities (15/20lb)

- Brad


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

mrwindupbird said:


> To weigh it down though, what other things besides pool filter sand would you guys recommend?


You don't _need_ to weigh it down. I've had it in my tank for a year and a half and it hasn't flown off into space or anything. I can't understand why people on forums suggest people need to do some things, everybody thinks they're a pro-consult now. That said, Eco is heavier, so it would weight it down just fine. I would soak the Turface for a few weeks, fully submersed, in a separate container to allow most of the air to escape before capping it in a tank. It's very porous and takes time to release all air, so if you immediately cap it you run the risk of developing pockets in the substrate.


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## peter22 (Jul 10, 2008)

Agree with Jaidexl. There is no real need to weigh it down. I've had charcoal turface in my tank for a couple months now and love it. It is tricky trying to get plants to root in it though because they tend to uproot easily due to the turface being so light, but lead weights due the trick until roots can grow.
Another factor is vacuum cleaning the turface can be interesting, but can be solved by pressing on the vacuum's tube so there is less vacuum pressure. It can be a plus because it allows you to rearrange your turface around your tank without getting your hands wet.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> You don't _need_ to weigh it down. I've had it in my tank for a year and a half and it hasn't flown off into space or anything. I can't understand why people on forums suggest people need to do some things, everybody thinks they're a pro-consult now. That said, Eco is heavier, so it would weight it down just fine. I would soak the Turface for a few weeks, fully submersed, in a separate container to allow most of the air to escape before capping it in a tank. It's very porous and takes time to release all air, so if you immediately cap it you run the risk of developing pockets in the substrate.


Hostility aside I'm basing my opinion from my personal experience so please
stop with the snide remarks I never said I was a "Pro".

The reason people recommend you add pool filter sand is because rooted
plants tend to pull out of it especially if you have bottom feeders that like
to root around in your tank that's been the experience of many, many
people on allot of forums besides this one not because the soil floats into
the water column easily.

- Brad


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

Honored my questions are causing such a stir 

I'm thinking I'll end up adding some charcoal sand on top anyway, to make cleaning / rooting easier for myself.

How about this - any comments on a bottom layer of dry peat as described in the following http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Soilmaster-Select-Substrate/26/
? The article mentions it but doesn't answer the question WHY would you want to do that.. Thoughts?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mrwindupbird said:


> Honored my questions are causing such a stir
> 
> I'm thinking I'll end up adding some charcoal sand on top anyway, to make cleaning / rooting easier for myself.
> 
> ...



Peat and/or oak leaves lowers your PH and GH (general hardness) I use
them to lower the PH/GH in my Discus breeding tanks tho I don't use it
as a substrate additive (I don't use substrate in breeding tanks).

EDIT: Keep in mind lowing PH/GH with Peat/oak leaves and raising PH/KH
with baking soda is not an exact science so experiment at your own risk.

- Brad


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

bradac56 said:


> Hostility aside I'm basing my opinion from my personal experience so please
> stop with the snide remarks I never said I was a "Pro".
> 
> The reason people recommend you add pool filter sand is because rooted
> ...


No hostility here, Brad. I never have a problem with stems. Maybe you have to be a "Pro stem planter" to get the job done without unnecessary add-ons. :flick:

And why on earth would someone cap SMS with pool filter sand, why not just the sand, do you really think the CEC of SMS is going to help you that much? The reason for many people using SMS/turface is that it looks natural. If you like the look of pool filter sand, then just use that alone. <scratches head>


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

After a number of calls, I managed to find a distributor that carries Turface about an hour away on Long Island. Hopefully it's the right stuff, I'll be taking the drive tomorrow.

What color is this stuff supposed to be anyway? Kind of thought it was charcoal but the guy said it's brown/reddish?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Yep, mostly a dark grey-brown slate color, about three different hues, then a few red chunks here and there, The difference between red and brown/grey calcined clay is the length of time it's kiln fired for, the red is fired for less time, not sure how they get into the brown or don't change with the brown. It's not something that's overly unsightly or even noticeable at times.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Dry, darkens a notch when wet


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## milesm (Apr 4, 2006)

mrwindupbird said:


> After a number of calls, I managed to find a distributor that carries Turface about an hour away on Long Island. Hopefully it's the right stuff, I'll be taking the drive tomorrow.
> 
> What color is this stuff supposed to be anyway? Kind of thought it was charcoal but the guy said it's brown/reddish?


sounds like they have the regular turface. to me, it's more like orange-red, not brown. it looks okay in a tank. it is really light, difficult to get rooted plants to stay if you've got bottom rooters. that said, it is a decent substrate for plant growth. i wouldn't cap the turface with pool filter or some other heavier medium. it will eventually sink and you;ll get an ugly mixing of colors. i speak from experience.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Good point, some of the other turfaces are pretty orange, make sure they have Pro League Grey, it's the only comparison shot I've seen online that looks identical to SMS in color and size. The thread with the comparisons is an old SMS thread here or at APC.


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

Just called again - looks like they have the Pro League Tan (not Grey). I will go there to check it out, it's near my parents house anyway.


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## 6t5Goat (Jan 17, 2008)

I have 3 bags of the old SMS Charcoal color... I live between Baltimore and Philly if anyone wants some.. 

$15.00


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> Peat and/or oak leaves lowers your PH and GH (general hardness) I use
> them to lower the PH/GH in my Discus breeding tanks tho I don't use it
> as a substrate additive (I don't use substrate in breeding tanks).
> 
> ...


Peat also adds a little organic nutrient content. I used a few handfuls in my 90gal.

Easy to over do it though.


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

Turns out they didnt have pro league there. they had something called mvp, which is also a sports field conditioner. basically same thing, just more of a reddish/brownish hue. I also picked up some peat moss (for a very light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank) and fluoride that matches turface color almost exactly. I am almost done washing/putting it in. fluoride is a b**** to wash. My back hurts


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

mrwindupbird said:


> Turns out they didnt have pro league there. they had something called mvp, which is also a sports field conditioner. basically same thing, just more of a reddish/brownish hue. I also picked up some peat moss (for a very light sprinkle on the bottom of the tank) and fluoride that matches turface color almost exactly. I am almost done washing/putting it in. fluoride is a b**** to wash. My back hurts


Good choice Turface MVP has a moisture additive/lawn fertz that can do as
much damage as Miracle Grow to a tank (that's not pretty).

- Brad


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## gogreen (Sep 18, 2008)

im sorda confused(newbie:icon_redf)...so turface from lesco is good enough substitute substrate to a flourite/eco complete/etc??? in short...i can grow fantastic plants out of it (lights/co2/etc aside)


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## mrwindupbird (Oct 7, 2008)

bradac56 said:


> Good choice Turface MVP has a moisture additive/lawn fertz that can do as
> much damage as Miracle Grow to a tank (that's not pretty).
> 
> - Brad


are you sure?

I have to admit my heart sank when I read your post. Then did more research
http://www.turfconnection.com/fertilizers/TurfaceProductSpecs.pdf
According to the above the only difference between the two lines of products (Pro League vs MVP) is the grain.


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## Rod Hay (Feb 11, 2006)

I no longer admit in public how many tanks I have. (I like both many plants and many fish.) That said, I've run the range of different substrates and tried some tricks too.

I've personal experience trying to cap SMS charcoal w/ Pool Filter Sand. ( I changed this tank over to _Apistogrammas_ and they love to pick up and sift sand thru their gills, so I wanted sand on top.) Guess which one is now on top? _Not_ the Pool Filter Sand! In general whenever you have two substrates w/ differing grain size the smaller grains fall below and the larger ones 'rise' to the surface. Given the additional difference in weight between the SMS and the PFS, this happened much quicker than I imagined it would. Heavier also tends to sink below something that's lighter.

Now I have used SMS as a cap to El Natural soil based tank, worked just fine.

I also have a large tank that 's just SMS and another that 's all Schultz Aquatic Planting Soil. When first submerged both take a little extra finesse; but they do settle down a lot. I also insert my stems into the substrate at a 45 degree angle. The stem is angled under the substrate but the part above automatically straightens - water is buoyant. When planted @ 90d - completely vertical - it's easier to float up. But the 45d angle helps.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

mrwindupbird said:


> are you sure?
> 
> I have to admit my heart sank when I read your post. Then did more research
> http://www.turfconnection.com/fertilizers/TurfaceProductSpecs.pdf
> According to the above the only difference between the two lines of products (Pro League vs MVP) is the grain.


MVP is the same as Schultz Aquatic Soil, there may or may not be some grain difference (haven't seen the comparison shots in a while), There's no extra additives in the MSDS or description, nor have I ever read anyone else suggesting so. All calcined clay products are essentially the same aside from different colors and grain size, there are about three types of clay used that I know of, illite and montmorillonite are the two I remember, pretty much all of it comes from Oildry. They also package some cat litters from the same material, which can often contain additive depending on the brand and may or may not be fired long enough to stay solid for the duration in the tank.



gogreen said:


> im sorda confused(newbie:icon_redf)...so turface from lesco is good enough substitute substrate to a flourite/eco complete/etc??? in short...i can grow fantastic plants out of it (lights/co2/etc aside)


Flourite and Eco will contain Iron and some other nutrients, but as far as nitrogens and other macros go , the bulk will always come from either the fish, or your fert additions to the water column. Even play sand can grow nice plants, and people can kill plants no matter what they use.


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## acer (Oct 6, 2008)

has anyone ever heard of using kitty litter as a substrate>? i did. when i asked about it, he stated he used a clay based kitty litter non deoderized.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Yes, people used to use Special Kitty for a long time and probably still do, though you don't hear about it here much as most DIY folks go for the field conditioners now. I've never personally used the litter but read it can become soft in water, over time.


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## MissMTS (Oct 8, 2008)

Wow, I haven't looked at this thread in a few days and there is lots of good info 

I have one question (It's probably a really dumb one, but here it goes):
Can you use regular gravel for planted tanks if you are adding ferts to give the plants nutrients?


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

Yes. Some carpeting plants grow more dense in a finer substrate.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

jaidexl said:


> MVP is the same as Schultz Aquatic Soil, there may or may not be some grain difference (haven't seen the comparison shots in a while), There's no extra additives in the MSDS or description, nor have I ever read anyone else suggesting so. All calcined clay products are essentially the same aside from different colors and grain size, there are about three types of clay used that I know of, illite and montmorillonite are the two I remember, pretty much all of it comes from Oildry. They also package some cat litters from the same material, which can often contain additive depending on the brand and may or may not be fired long enough to stay solid for the duration in the tank."


I got the info on MVP from a Lesco manager so that could easly be wrong and I haven't actully used anything but the Pro Gray so far.

- Brad


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## Homer_Simpson (May 10, 2007)

acer said:


> has anyone ever heard of using kitty litter as a substrate>? i did. when i asked about it, he stated he used a clay based kitty litter non deoderized.


At one time I thought of experimenting with Kitty Litter, until I found out that it was essentially composed of fuller's earth. That is the same exact thing that Schultz Aquatic Soil is made from. I reasoned that if SAS was fire kindled, ph neutral, and specifically made to withstand breakdown over a long period of time, that it was the more logical choice. Price wise there was not a huge difference.

With Kitty litter, depending on where it is mined, it could radically mess with your water parameters. And that could serioulsy create issued with your plants and fish. From what I have read, some(not everyone) people have had the best results with Wal-Mart brand kitty kitty litter and hartz ph5 kitty litter (good luck finding it).

The jury is really out on how well Kitty litter grows aquarium plants and how well it stands up over time. You will find as many people who have posted negative experiences about it as those who have posted positive experiences about it.

Personally, I say why take the risk. Just get Schultz Aquatic Soil, it close to the same price as kitty litter without the long term inherent risks. Better yet, go with just pool filter sand or mineralized soil. IME, I got better long term results using pool filter sand(with Tom Barr's E.I Index fertilization) than Schultz Aquatic Soil(with Tom Barr's E.I. Index fertilization). It is like the difference between the tortoise and the hare. The SAS performs better off the bat than the Pool Filter Sand, but after about 6 months, the pool filter sand seems to do better. I have no idea why.


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Kitty was used a lot back about 10 years ago, works great. SMS is not the same, it's cooked at higher temps, kitty litter is still semi soft.

I think plain sand + some organic matter(ground peat), and maybe some osmocoat works pretty well and is pretty darn cheap.

Then there's wetland mud that's screens and washed, then allowed to settle, then dry a bit. Mix with 2/3 sand and add about 1" layer capped with 2-3" of 2-3 mm sand.

Works very well.

Cost, about 3$ for 50lbs, but you have the time and expense of DIY. But that's 1/2 the fun for many folks.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## h2osanity (Sep 19, 2008)

I use kitty litter (no name) in my pond plants. It seems to do the job well. I cap it with pebbles to keep out the koi as they will eat it and dig through it.

I haven't tried it in the aquarium though.


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## jaidexl (Sep 18, 2006)

plantbrain said:


> I think plain sand + some organic matter(ground peat), and maybe some osmocoat works pretty well and is pretty darn cheap.


Tom, I noticed you mentioned Azolla somewhere. Can you elaborate on that, are you simply adding a layer of live or dead azolla like you would peat? I have a ton of it nearby.


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## neko (Jan 28, 2006)

*black sand*

I just purchase 50lb of black sand on ebay from AquariumSands.com. cost $35. I think these are the 3m colored sand.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I've been researching this topic a lot lately, and I think 3M color quartz is the way to go. Make sure you get the T grade. The S grade is supposed to be too small, but it might be good for a nano tank.

I found a place locally that sells 50 lbs for $30, as long as I place the order in advance so that they arrange for transfer from another store. Otherwise I would have to pay freight.


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I'm not sold on 3M color quartz's yet. I've read several reports of it being
dyed and needing to be washed more than any other substrate. Granted I
haven't used any of it yet so that's just conjecture on my part.

- Brad


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

^ Really?! That's the exact opposite of what I learned after spending about 12 hours yesterday researching. Every thread I encountered agreed that the stuff is inert, that the stuff is dark black and never fades, and the stuff doesn't need to be washed at ALL, much less needing to be washed more than any other substrate. More than any other substrate? You _have_ heard of fluorite, right?

No offense, it's just that, while many people in many of the threads I researched report that 3m qc is not their preferred substrate, I never came across anyone saying it was dyed, or it needs to be cleaned more than fluorite, or anything like that. So this comes out of nowhere to me... unless you're talking about S grade, in which case, maybe you're right because anytime I encountered a thread about the S grade I skipped over it.


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## epicfish (Sep 11, 2006)

Church said:


> ^ Really?! That's the exact opposite of what I learned after spending about 12 hours yesterday researching. Every thread I encountered agreed that the stuff is inert, that the stuff is dark black and never fades, and the stuff doesn't need to be washed at ALL, much less needing to be washed more than any other substrate. More than any other substrate? You _have_ heard of fluorite, right?
> 
> No offense, it's just that, while many people in many of the threads I researched report that 3m qc is not their preferred substrate, I never came across anyone saying it was dyed, or it needs to be cleaned more than fluorite, or anything like that. So this comes out of nowhere to me... unless you're talking about S grade, in which case, maybe you're right because anytime I encountered a thread about the S grade I skipped over it.


I use it in many tanks, over 300 pounds of it. Great stuff, easy to wash, easily washed, inert, pitch black, hasn't faded yet.


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## Church (Sep 14, 2004)

I'm picking up a 50 lb bag next week... t grade, black... I can't wait!!!


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## lauraleellbp (Feb 3, 2008)

The first bag of T grade CQ I bought was dustier than my black Flourite, I compared them (both the regular black and the black sand) when I washed and mixed them all in my 90gal. 

I've heard other ppl report that they didn't need to rinse theirs at all, but I'm working now with my 3rd bag of the stuff and I'd sure never put it in a tank without rinsing it first. I take it outside in a bucket with the garden hose and rinse the bejeebers out of it. The water coming off is always jet black at first...

The only reports I've read of the dye coming off was with the S grade; I'm guessing they must use a different manufacturing process with the smaller grade?


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## bradac56 (Feb 18, 2008)

I wasn't aware there were different grades that might explain the mixed reviews I've seen online.

- Brad


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