# hard time growing plants, please help



## roadrunner (Dec 29, 2010)

Hello

I have 20G tank that I've started last march. I purchased eco-complete substrate, brand new coralife 65w 6700 K light and started planted tank (again). Currently I have some anubias, bolbitis, java, x-mas moss, crypt, sunset hygro and grass looking like plant (not sure about the name). I've been doing regular EI dosing with 40-50% water changes once a week. For a long time I couldn't see much new growth beside occasional leaf on anubias. I had 4" albino pleco that I gave to my friend over a month ago cause I though he was eating new shoots. But even now, I don't see much growth. I have couple zebra danios, 2 black tetras, 8 cherry barbs, 5 amano shrimp and few cherry shrimp. Recently Ive been fighting green beard algae, so I cut down on light (currently I'm down from 8 h to 6 hours only). I used to have a problem keeping nitrates up, and I always had phosphates going off chart. I was considering excel or dyi co2, but I'm not sure if that's safe for my shrimp. I can not afford proper CO2 system and I feel really frustrated. I want to take the whole tank down and give up on growing plants all together. I've been researching, asking questions, but for the world of me I can not figure out what i'm doing wrong. Please help me figure out where the problem is. 
Thank you


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

roadrunner said:


> I have 20G tank that I've started last march.
> Have coralife 65w 6700 K light
> Recently Ive been fighting green beard algae, so I cut light to 6 hours. I used to have a problem keeping nitrates up, and I always had phosphates going off chart. I was considering excel or dyi co2, but I'm not sure if that's safe for my shrimp.


Off and on I have a problem with BBA (Black Brush Algae). Didn't know there was a GBA. I think it is a mineral imbalance in the water that causes it. My tap water is 8.6, Gh and KH to low to measure. Soft water with high ph means the city doses water with phosphates. 

Things I have done to keep it under control is to add a 3hr siesta period in light period. Thus lights on 3hrs, off 3hrs, off 3hrs. Also I dose witha souliton of KNO3 made from Spectricide Stump remover. For ferts I use a multi purpose from Select aquatics and Excel. Excel is toxic to shrimp. Also I only do monthly water changes. 

A good diy Co2 is here. It is my next project.


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

What type of fertilizers are you using? Liquid ferts or dry ferts? 
Are you dosing the correct amount of fertilizers? 
What are your current water parameters?
Are you positive the bulb in the fixture is 6700k?

I suggest setting up a DIY co2 system soon...


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## roadrunner (Dec 29, 2010)

I dose dry ferts 
KNO3 - dash - Sun, Tue & Thur
KH2PO4 - smidgen - Sun, Tue & Thur
micro - smidgen - Mo, Wed & Fri
I change 40-50% water every sunday and with each water change I add 2xdash equilibrium
My light is 65w 6,700K less than 6 months old. 

I did the water testing today and here are the results
PH - 7.2-7.4, KH
Nitrates - very low, almost 0 
GH - 40 (very soft)
KH - 20 mg/L (low)
phosphate - 5+ (off the chart)

Before I started my tank over again last spring, I tried to dose K2SO4 as well, then I left out KH2PO4 with not much luck bringing down my phosphates. I bought phosphate remover, but it only help the situation temporarily. I was told that lack of nitrates can cause my phosphates to go off chart. Is that true?
I also used to buff my water with alkaline buffer, but my shrimp are currently doing great, so I don't really want to experiment with that too much and mess up my PH. 

When I do my regular sunday water change, I also vacuum the gravel. Am I cleaning my tank too much? 

I guess I should bump up my KNO3 dosing and see if that will make any difference.

I considered diy CO2, but lots of people suggested not to, because it's not stable and can cause more problems.

Thank you for your help.


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## aznartist34 (Nov 19, 2010)

You can supply all the light and fertilizer you want, but without a source of carbon, your plants won't be growing very much. I would suggest going low tech and replacing that light for something more low light and ease off the ferts. Plants might not grow very fast but its more manageable and less chance for algae.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

roadrunner said:


> I did the water testing today and here are the results
> PH - 7.2-7.4, KH
> Nitrates - very low, almost 0
> GH - 40 (very soft)
> ...


Your water parameters are similar to mine. Dosing with KNO3 made a difference with my tank. 

I think doing monthly water changes would be better for it allows the build up of minerals which will raise the gh and kh.

A good diy Co2 is here. It is my next project. It is stable for it uses 3 to 5 bottles, depending on the size of the tank.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

Your low tech. Which means low light and no co2. Here is what you need to do.

1. Make sure light is on 6hr a day
2. Double check your PAR is Low Light 20-30.
3. Create more turbulence at the surface for gas exchange.
4. Most importantly, reduce water changes OR perform water changes after your light go off for the night.

You more than likey have a co2 issue. See when you do you weekly EI water changes you are changing the co2/pH in the water. By waiting til the lights go out, the co2/pH in your tank has all night to settle before the next photo period!

Hope this helps.


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## tylergvolk (Jun 17, 2012)

Oh, and I almost forgot!

Never give up.

Be patient.

The challenge is the best part!

Believe me.

The feeling you will get after recovering from this will make it all worth it!


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## xxUnRaTeDxxRkOxx (Jul 12, 2011)

roadrunner said:


> I dose dry ferts
> KNO3 - dash - Sun, Tue & Thur
> KH2PO4 - smidgen - Sun, Tue & Thur
> micro - smidgen - Mo, Wed & Fri


I recommend getting a digital milligram/gram/ounce calculator, this will let you measure out the exact amount of each fertilizer you're using. Here's what I'm getting for a 20 gallon based on low light EI dosing...


KNO3 - 1.234 grams once per week
KH2PO4 - 108 milligrams once per week
K2SO4 - 1.687 grams once per week

Plantex CSM+B (micros) - 231 milligrams once per week

I recommend slowly switching your dosing down to once a week dosing for macros (npk) on Mondays, and on Tuesdays for micros with water changes on Sundays. Your plants are carbon starved, without a source of carbon dioxide they're unable to "breath correctly" because plants breath co2 and in return give off oxygen during the day time, and reverse this action at night co2 is needed for plants to grow.

By not providing them co2 during the day time they are using up the nutrients faster, but aren't able to process the nutrients correctly because of the lack of co2. Co2 not only helps plants to "breath" correctly, but helps in every aspect of growth in aquatic plants.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

I have the very same light. That light has been the bane of my existence until I finally bit the bullet and did ferts and pressurized co2. BAM! Growth! Prior to that, all I did was flourish trace, comprehensive, and excel. I never really fully understood the ferts previously so I didn't know about the macros. All the while, it just grew BBA algae and java fern for me. Everything else I had was barely surviving. Granted, you're doing ferts already so you are ahead of me. They say you need all three of the triangle (light, ferts, co2) to balance for things to go good. You have 2 of 3. 

The previous suggestions are all sound and good. Try the DIY, just to figure out if it is the co2. Do it right tho. I had a crappy little DIY co2 thing from Hagen and it generated nowhere NEAR the bubble count that I needed and just gave me even more algae. My mixes barely lasted over a week and I was cheap so I let it run down on the second week. I think in hindsight, if I did it with a bigger 2L soda bottle, I might have gotten somewhere.

Otherwise, go with what aznartist34 suggested and back down on the light and save yourself from the algae attacks. 

But you want growth ... don't you?


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## roadrunner (Dec 29, 2010)

Thank you everybody for kind words and encouragement. It's really hard to see "nothing" after you put so much work into something. I guess CO2 is my next step. I will give it a try and see how it goes. I just wonder how some people manage to have such great tanks with no CO2 at all. Maybe one day I'll figure that out too. Thanx again. I will keep you posted.


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## aja31 (May 25, 2013)

As others have said I think CO2 is your problem. You will always be limited by whatever you are lacking most. High light and high nutrients with no CO2 means no growth and lots of algae. You can either add in CO2 or cut down on light and nutrients. 

I have a low tech 36g with no CO2 and what I do is use low light and only 1/3 the standard EI dosing. In addition I make sure my HOB filter agitates the water constantly. This means I get slow growth but keeps everything balanced so far. It has only been going for 3 months now, but I've seen what I consider a decent amount of growth considering my set up.


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## ETK (Jan 25, 2013)

roadrunner said:


> Thank you everybody for kind words and encouragement. It's really hard to see "nothing" after you put so much work into something. I guess CO2 is my next step. I will give it a try and see how it goes. I just wonder how some people manage to have such great tanks with no CO2 at all. Maybe one day I'll figure that out too. Thanx again. I will keep you posted.


The way people manage to have great tanks with without injecting CO2 is by providing less light. The basic theory most people go by is this: provide plenty of nutrients (NPK and micros), then balance the amount of CO2 and the amount of light. More light means more photosynthesis which means higher demand for CO2. 

Also: new tanks nearly always have an algae issue to work through. Be patient. Lastly, with EI, water changes need to be at least 50%, not 40-50%.


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## roadrunner (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm currently doing 4 day black out due to the BBA problems caused by high levels of phosphates. I will try to adjust my dosing and cut down to 6 hours light and look into diy CO2. 
I will keep you posted what's new with my tank. Thank you.


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## Seedreemer (Sep 28, 2008)

I can't contribute to any of the tech aspects as I'm lazy about that kind of stuff. I see a lot of plant variety but you didn't mention just how heavily your tank is planted. I've found that if I plant VERY heavily to start it makes things a lot easier. I don't do ferts or anything else but do use DIY Co2 for a few months in the beginning to jump start plant growth. I gradually reduce until it's off completely then switch to haphazard Excel dosing if I feel tank needs it. I'm pretty tolerant of jungle-like growth/design and some algae though. 

And like everyone says, it takes awhile for a tank to balance out.


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## tetra73 (Aug 2, 2011)

roadrunner said:


> I'm currently doing 4 day black out due to the BBA problems caused by high levels of phosphates. I will try to adjust my dosing and cut down to 6 hours light and look into diy CO2.
> I will keep you posted what's new with my tank. Thank you.


Dosing excel 2x should supply the necessary carbon source you need. Reduce your EI dosing to twice per week. Skip the diy CO2. More headaches since you need to supply the necessary CO2 level and without harming your shrimps. Dosing 2x excel would not harm you shrimps. 

Here is my low tech dirt tank with a modified EI dosing and 2x excel daily. Medium light with 8 Amano shrimps.










This was taken 2 weeks ago. Right now, by the front of the tank, near the glass, is fully covered with baby chainswords.


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## roadrunner (Dec 29, 2010)

tetra73 said:


> Dosing excel 2x should supply the necessary carbon source you need. Reduce your EI dosing to twice per week. Skip the diy CO2. More headaches since you need to supply the necessary CO2 level and without harming your shrimps. Dosing 2x excel would not harm you shrimps.
> 
> Here is my low tech dirt tank with a modified EI dosing and 2x excel daily. Medium light with 8 Amano shrimps.
> 
> ...


Wow, that's a beautiful looking tank. How many gallons? And how much excel do you dose? I will give it a try with excel and see how it goes. Hopefully it wont harm my shrimp. 

Some of my plants are still getting loose and float on the top couple days after I plant them. I wonder if my cherry barbs have anything to do with that. Anybody else experienced hungry hungry hippos….ehm I mean cherry barbs? 

Thanx


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## badassone (Sep 30, 2013)

try plant bulbs, ease up on the ferts, and try turning your filter output down to minimize co2 removal it helps the plants. also research the plants they may need different temps and or lights, all are different . to keep the plants growing good with less ferts push your trimmed leaves into the substrate and let them decompose it will help feed the roots.turn down or off air pumps any bubbles will release co2 bad for plants. too much surface movement also bad.try different ferts they may not contain enough of what your plants need.
*Questions:* how deep is your substrate and what type is it?


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

Well as you have I set up a 20G with Coralife Dual T5NO light strip. I am just keeping the lights on for 6 hrs.

My plants are similar to yours. I have got Cryptocoryne spiralis, Sunset hygro, Sagittaria subulata, Java Fern and moss. 

I am not planning on adding Co2. I am just dosing the 20G with Select Aquatics dry fert which has:
Calcium sulfate, Iron sulfate, Mag. s., Potas. s, and Biotin. An all in 1 fert. 

I had placed a phosphate remover in the filter for 10G. The result was ferns deteriorated.


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