# Tell me what to adjust. I'll try anything.



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

74 views and not 1 reply. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posing here or at aquariumadvice


----------



## tattooedfool83 (Mar 15, 2013)

How far above the tank is that light?









That's a lot of light for a 25 and with DIY co2 hard to keep it consistent.


----------



## water-kitties (Mar 19, 2013)

You have a toooooon of light. I use two t5ho on my 25g with pressurized co2 and think about raising it up. It also looks like you might not have enough fast growing plants to need so much light and ferts. I think I see swords, anubias, and wisteria? 

Tank age maybe a factor as well since it sort of looks like brown diatoms. It will just go away after a time if that is what it is.


----------



## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

*try...*

Step 1: Stop with the all fertilizer - I mean full stop, not another drop. 

Step 2: Pull the CO2 hardware out of the system. You're done with it (for now).

Step 3: Clean up the filter, replace the sponge (or similar) element. Open that thing up, keep the water moving, don't let the algae settle back down. I switched from a HOB filter (Aqua Clear 50) to a canister type (Fluval 206) personally. 

Step 4: trim any effected plants down. Your water wisteria will thrive no matter what you do to it, and the rest of the plants should be all right. Give them a fresh start.

Step 5: Water changes, big freaking water changes. Think 50% daily for a week*. 

Step 6: (optional) Feeder shrimp. Pick some up cheap at your LFS. They'll eat any excess fish food, and help with the algae. Your fish might snack on them, but they are _feeder_ shrimp after all. 

You need to go cold turkey on that fertilizer and CO2, you're feeding the algae at this point not the plants. You're effectively going to a low-tech tank system. Once stabilizing there (90 days or so), consider starting the CO2 and fertilizer back again. I've gone from a pricey CO2 and Fert system, to a more simple system, and now that things are doing just fine with_out_ all that high-tech hardware -- I'm staying low-tech(ish).

*With all that fresh water in the tank (and for me a new filter) I poured in a dose of Dr. Tim's One and Only, to keep the tank cycled. I swear by the stuff.


----------



## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

if it's diatoms as is mentioned above, ignore it

otherwise, try to ignore the algae, sounds crazy doesn't it ?

look at your plants, are they healthy?, are they growing?, really growing?, are there any deficiencies?, are there any toxicities?

i look at what everyone is doing, ... if you don't like the algae, you can clean it off and it looks better till it comes back, you can spot dose with excel, you can wring your hands about nutrients, ... about that nutrient thing, ... if your plants are healthy they'll suck back the nutrients, and your algae will suffer. ... 

and you'll have to learn something very few people in the hobby talk about, ... "patience", give it time.

like if you've got diatoms, give it time
if you've got greenwater (i heard give it time)
if you've got green dusk algae, give it time.

the best job you can do to get rid of these is be lazy.

other types of algae, keep them from getting to excessive, everyone suggests spot injections of excel (i'm stubborn and depending on the algae actually prefer to encourage certain types), ... and there's some that start to say something really different, the plants in an established aquarium will themselves restrict or even prevent algae blooms. but give it time, ... take care of your plants.

and damn, you've got a lot going on, just my personal thoughts, scale some of that back, you've got a different machine to help every aspect of your tank, nutrients and hardness and CO2, and lights and lots and lots and lots, ...

i've got lights, and a bubble wand, and only just recently started to take it seriously that the health of the plants really do take priorities. i can't say i'll be vocal about talking about my success or failures, as i have a goal that others would be pulling their hair out, shaking their head and be at a loss for words.

but some of the more experienced people who have had tanks for years and who have established quite a name for themselves seem to say the same thing, ... take care of your plants and your plants will take care of the tank.


----------



## meppitech (Apr 29, 2011)

Too much light. With diy co2 there is no way you are getting consistant 30-35ppm. Dont know what solution in your drop checker. Make sure it is correct. If you had read some stickies and done some research you could have found this info out in about ten minutes. If you just wanted the exact answer handed to you, it doesnt happen this way usually. Not cool to complain about how quickly people help you. So quick to complain, yet no appreciation when people do. The first thing I would "adjust" is your attitude. If you want people to HELP you, dont come at them like that. Life lesson.


----------



## dprais1 (Sep 12, 2012)

King of Hyrule said:


> Step 1: Stop with the all fertilizer - I mean full stop, not another drop.
> 
> Step 2: Pull the CO2 hardware out of the system. You're done with it (for now).
> 
> ...


I pretty much agree with this.

here is my changes
1. keep dosing micros but only 1/3 of EI dosing. don't dose NPK
2. keep the co2
3. yes and yes. clean it and dial it back up to 100%
4. yes
5. yes yes and yes
6. okay sure, ramshorn snails might help too, but then you have snails. I personally wouldn't add snails.

you have too much light esp for those plants, you have way too much fertilizer for those plants. you could probably get away with one bulb on for nine hours, maybe even two for six hours. anubias and swords won't grow like stems no matter what you do.


----------



## Jester946 (Mar 30, 2013)

stopping ferts? why?

looks like someone has a ton of light, not enough co2, and no clean up crew?


----------



## Nightspell (May 22, 2013)

germanyt said:


> 74 views and not 1 reply. Sometimes I wonder why I even bother posing here or at aquariumadvice


Maybe nobody had a knowledgeable response to offer, or had the same problem and were looking for a solution as well? Would you like us to guess? I'm not sure what the refund policy is for membership dues here, but good luck in any event...


----------



## thejoe (May 23, 2013)

The lighting you have would be just about right for a 50 gallon or more tank. turn off half of your lights. Doing this will be the first step. Do it today.


----------



## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

i know about asking questions people don't have knowledgeable responses, ... some of the questions i ask are about raising algae, deliberately, ... it's one thing to have a problem and try to get rid of it, it's quit different when your trying to grow it healthy, ... questions like that that i've asked before i never got a response for, oh well, no harm, i still look to learn


----------



## foster (Sep 23, 2012)

The algae shown in the pics is diatom algae. Normally associated with new setups. High silicates in your water will cause this algae. Lighting makes no difference with diatoms. 
I have this issue in my tanks to a certain degree. I find that a higher co2 concentration, and a few Ramshorn snails keep it under control.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

meppitech said:


> Too much light. With diy co2 there is no way you are getting consistant 30-35ppm. Dont know what solution in your drop checker. Make sure it is correct. If you had read some stickies and done some research you could have found this info out in about ten minutes. If you just wanted the exact answer handed to you, it doesnt happen this way usually. Not cool to complain about how quickly people help you. So quick to complain, yet no appreciation when people do. The first thing I would "adjust" is your attitude. If you want people to HELP you, dont come at them like that. Life lesson.


First sentence is speculation. Second is nonsense. I'm gassing off CO2 with aeration because my fish gasp at the surface if I don't. And I've read the stickies. Which is why I posted such detailed information about my setup. As for not showing appreciation, I work 12.5 hour days and this is the first time I've seen this thread since. Please refrain from replying to my future threads.



Nightspell said:


> Maybe nobody had a knowledgeable response to offer, or had the same problem and were looking for a solution as well? Would you like us to guess? I'm not sure what the refund policy is for membership dues here, but good luck in any event...


Sorry if I expected a thousand members of a planted tank forum with a sectioned entitled 'algae' to know about algae. You can ignore my posts as well.



As for those that helped thank you. I was frustrated because I'm cleaning my tank daily and can't stop the algae growth. I haven't cleaned it in 3 days now though. Here are a few pics.
















































The algae is a mixture of flat brown and fuzzy green. It seems the brown algae is mostly attracted to the plants and the green to the glass. I thought about shutting off one ballast but the tank seems so dim when I do. I guess I'll get used to it. I'll pull all the plants out tomorrow and clean the algae off of everything. 

The plants I have are these two.










I also have the wisteria, a telanthera cardinalis, a water onion, a marimo ball, and this one









I got it from Petco and it was mostly red when I got it but it turned bright bright green. Like neon green. 

As for fish I have 2 anglefish, 4 black skirt tetras, 2 albino cory catfish, and 1 ADF. They all get along fine. 

So deep clean tomorrow, cut down to 2 bulbs, stop ferts for now, and continue co2.


----------



## samee (Oct 14, 2011)

King of Hyrule said:


> Step 1: Stop with the all fertilizer - I mean full stop, not another drop.
> 
> Step 2: Pull the CO2 hardware out of the system. You're done with it (for now)
> 
> ...



I disagree here. High light, no nutrient and no co2? how are plants going to stay alive with no nutrients? All thats going to do is make things worse. 

What you need to get rid of is the diy co2. You need pressurized co2 to compensate for such high light. If you cant, raise the light alot so its a low or medium light tank. With diy, your co2 levels are going to be all over the place. Also, cleaning your tank is the first and biggest step. Clean, major water changes ever other day. As far as diatoms go, I believe its the decaying matter and the cleanness of the tank that effects it. If its a new tank, dont worry about it, just clean your tank alot/water changes. If your tank is established, then its most likely your tank health. Ive heard silicates also contribute. In my tank, I have pool sand at the bottom, thats the leading cause of silicates in my tank yet I have not had a diatom problem.

From the pics, your plants are mostly low light, so theres no need for such high light. with higher light = much more problems and maintenance.

EDIT: just read your last post, continue with the co2, dont stop the nutrients, I think you can lower the dose since you only have 2 plants. I think that might also cause a problem because you have 2 plants in a tank with loads of light. You need more plants


----------



## meppitech (Apr 29, 2011)

" First sentence is speculation. Second is nonsense. I'm gassing off CO2 with aeration because my fish gasp at the surface if I don't. And I've read the stickies. Which is why I posted such detailed information about my setup. As for not showing appreciation, I work 12.5 hour days and this is the first time I've seen this thread since. Please refrain from replying to my future threads."

#1. Most people have echoed my opinion of too much light.

#2. Diy co2 is most likely inconsistent. Hence, not being able to CONSISTENTLY MAINTAIN 30-35 ppm of co2.

#3. If you are gonna make negative comments about not get any help within 24 hours of posting your thread, i would expect within the next 24 hours any form of appreciation for what people had offered as help. Glad to see you know it all.

Good luck buddy. Keep insulting people and see where it gets you.


----------



## UncleChin (Jul 26, 2013)

Get snails SAE and Otocinclus. Best algae cleaning crew NA


----------



## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

samee said:


> I disagree here. High light, no nutrient and no co2? how are plants going to stay alive with no nutrients? All thats going to do is make things worse.


His plants will be fine. I have a 29G filled to the top with plants I need to chop down weekly and only use 15ml of fertilizer once a month. His water is choked full of nutrients - that's the heart of the problem.


*Germanyt*, its looking better. Don't be afraid to chop down the wisteria, it grows very fast, even without CO2 and fertilizers. I cut out about 80% of mine and in two weeks the remaining plants have doubled in size. Any leaf that's infected, should be pulled. Use a tooth brush to clean the larger board leaf plants. It the leaf is too far gone, cut it out. 

Once the filter is running at 100% you might want to stir up any plant matter that has collected at the bottom. 

I'm standing by turning off your CO2. You don't need it. 

In those pictures I see windows - how much of that sunlight is getting into your tank? Also how stable is the water temperature? Hot water grows tend to grow algae faster.

How much and how often are you feeding your fish? Too much fish food can cause problems. 

Side note: Get a couple more of those albino cory cats, they like to be in groups. 



Post water change. Three week *without* fertilizer


----------



## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

King of Hirule: I would think the biggest difference between your tank and the OP's is that you do not have a *QUAD* T5HO light over yours. 

I think the biggest issue needing to be addressed is that you have a lot of light compared to what your plants actually need and the Co2 you have available. I'm going to say that I too am skeptical your DIY system is consistently putting out 30 ppm, but call that speculation too...either way I just don't see DIY being able to keep up with the current lighting.

Anyways, I highly doubt cutting nutrients and CO2 completely are going to solve any problem other than stunting any plant growth further. This is a high energy system right now. The only way I see that working is by cutting down on the light first, either by raising it well above the tank or switching fixtures completely. Alternatively, if the Odyssea is run on separate ballasts even running one or two bulbs would likely be a major improvement right now.

That being said, I'd pick a more clear direction to go with this tank. You have some less demanding, slower growing plants in a high demand tank. Something's gotta change in my opinion otherwise algae will likely continue to be a challenge. 

Take that as you wish...


----------



## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Algae presence seldom correlate directly to singular factors such as light or CO2. Its about building up a systemic balance that tends towards plant growth rather than lower lifeforms such as algae. Low lifestock tanks seem easier to balance, same with low lighting. But ultimately its about finding a combination of growing plants. The reason why people reply slowly or give diametrically differing opinions (some recommend more CO2, some people say cut it!) is that not only is an eco system complex (there are many triggers for algae and therefore difficult to diagnose) but there are different methods for finding balance. Starting conditions and momentum matters as well. 

Copying off my reply in another thread:
Growing glosso carpet in a non-CO2 5 gal tank with 150 watts MH pendant (suspended above as to give equivalent of high par to a 3 ft tank). This has been running for about 3.5 months, glass has never been wiped for this shot (there is some algae fuzz, spot etc but not visible in shot). So much light, algae much?









This older non-CO2 tank from about 6 years back; thats a 55w PLL fixture on a 10gal tank. Tank has been running for about a year when shot was taken. The glass needs cleaning once in many months for viewing clarity. Gunk builds up on the substrate but otherwise even the rocks don't get green or BBA etc.









Yup they're using the exact same filter; I got rid of the rimmed tank later on cos I felt it was ugly.
The exact same tank dimension and lighting as the first tank was used to make this high CO2/high tech tank;









Really had to search back in time for this tank 8 or 9 years back. DIY CO2, using 55 watts PLL fixture on a 10 gal tank (same as 2nd pic). Unstable/low CO2 levels, high light, not much algae either?









So with "high light", balance can still be found regardless of whether CO2 is used or its DIY CO2. However, its much more difficult managing higher lighting levels or higher energy systems. The higher your energy levels, the more plants you need to grow to out complete the algae; also it takes smaller instabilities to trigger algae bloom.

Some observations on your tank:
Your tank is still sparsely planted; no point having a perfect balance of nutrients if there is no engine to uptake. Could easily squeeze in 4-6X as much plants in that space. Even if I have a perfectly stable system with CO2/fert at perfect ratios, I'd still get algae if there was insufficient plant mass. If you have high lighting, you must have more plants.

On CO2; plants take about 1 week to adjust their enzymes. So if you change from a low CO2 state to high or vice verso, algae will react quickly, but plants will take a week. Choosing either methodology can work but it'll take patience, even a few weeks.

On lighting; easiest combination to manage is lower lighting + CO2. High lighting without CO2 is probably toughest to manage. You can do more reading on CO2 and light here:
http://www.tropica.com/en/tropica-abc/basic-knowledge/co2-and-light.aspx

On nutrients; people tend to over obsess about this because its something that can be measured and altered easily. No point trying to starve off algae by reducing nutrients; your plants would die before algae gives out since they need only microscopic amounts to survive(go google read some of Tom barrs articles on this). If you want to starve algae to death, proper way is to do a 5/6 day blackout and clear out the dead algae later with multiple water changes. Plants store enough starch to survive whereas algae's simple structures don't allow for that.

Other good house keeping habits:
Low organics/regular water changes
System stability; in terms of water quality, nutrients, CO2, lighting
Low ammonia levels; either by good filtration or large plant biomass
Good circulation and flow
Cleaning of dead leaves etc (if algae dies should also clear up/by water changes etc)

TLDR: If you have high lighting you need more plants. Then find ways to make that plant mass grow well. Most algae issues will resolve themselves if you can satisfy those 2 factors. Stability matters.


----------



## Chronados (Jan 28, 2013)

germanyt said:


> First sentence is speculation.


It's not speculation. You have too much light for your conditions, period.



germanyt said:


> Sorry if I expected a thousand members of a planted tank forum with a sectioned entitled 'algae' to know about algae. You can ignore my posts as well.


I understand you are frustrated, but this is not the kind of entitled-sounding response you want to post if you intend on getting responses in the future. Remember this is a FORUM, not a help-line. Not everyone here is an expert, nor are they obligated to help you. You're not our customer. As to why the response seems slow Xiaozhuang nailed it:



Xiaozhuang said:


> The reason why people reply slowly or give diametrically differing opinions (some recommend more CO2, some people say cut it!) is that not only is an eco system complex (there are many triggers for algae and therefore difficult to diagnose) but there are different methods for finding balance.


Now that that's out of the way, IMO the best plan of action (and some of this has already been said):

1) Keep the CO2
2) SIGNIFICANTLY lower the lighting
3) Add more fast growing plant mass
4) Add oto cats
5) Keep dosing ferts (make sure you add more plants though)


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

King of Hyrule said:


> His plants will be fine. I have a 29G filled to the top with plants I need to chop down weekly and only use 15ml of fertilizer once a month. His water is choked full of nutrients - that's the heart of the problem.
> 
> 
> *Germanyt*, its looking better. Don't be afraid to chop down the wisteria, it grows very fast, even without CO2 and fertilizers. I cut out about 80% of mine and in two weeks the remaining plants have doubled in size. Any leaf that's infected, should be pulled. Use a tooth brush to clean the larger board leaf plants. It the leaf is too far gone, cut it out.
> ...


I cut the wisteria down pretty regularly. It does grow like a weed. I usually cut it down halfway and replant the tops. The window behind is never open. It allows some light though the blinds but it's 10 feet back on a covered patio and I have a black vinyl background on the tank so AFAIK little sunlight gets though. Water temp stays at around 80 with no heater. So does my 55 gallon goldfish tank which is also near a window. I'm sure when it stops being 100 degrees outside the tank will cool a bit to maybe 72-74. 



jpappy789 said:


> King of Hirule: I would think the biggest difference between your tank and the OP's is that you do not have a *QUAD* T5HO light over yours.
> 
> I think the biggest issue needing to be addressed is that you have a lot of light compared to what your plants actually need and the Co2 you have available. I'm going to say that I too am skeptical your DIY system is consistently putting out 30 ppm, but call that speculation too...either way I just don't see DIY being able to keep up with the current lighting.
> 
> ...


Your response is not speculation. It was a logical opinion. The reason I refered to the other as speculation is because he stated that I couldn't be getting enough co2 from DIY for my light. I beg to differ. I changed my bottle out every 4 days and get very consistent measurements on my drop checker. I also allow the same amount of air each night for the same amount of time to gas off some of the co2 so it doesn't kill my fish. I'm using 2 cups of raw sugar, 1 tsp baking soda, 1 tsp yeast. I change the mixture before the bubble intensity drops. 

I was aiming for a high tech tank but the only plants I can get locally are from Petco or Petsmart. I considered ordering plants online but can't ever find consistent enough customer satisfaction to make me feel okay about spending 50 or 100 bucks on plants that may show up dead. I'd like to have a full HC carpet and lots of red plants. It's a work in progress I guess.



Xiaozhuang said:


> Algae presence seldom correlate directly to singular factors such as light or CO2. Its about building up a systemic balance that tends towards plant growth rather than lower lifeforms such as algae. Low lifestock tanks seem easier to balance, same with low lighting. But ultimately its about finding a combination of growing plants. The reason why people reply slowly or give diametrically differing opinions (some recommend more CO2, some people say cut it!) is that not only is an eco system complex (there are many triggers for algae and therefore difficult to diagnose) but there are different methods for finding balance. Starting conditions and momentum matters as well.
> 
> Copying off my reply in another thread:
> Growing glosso carpet in a non-CO2 5 gal tank with 150 watts MH pendant (suspended above as to give equivalent of high par to a 3 ft tank). This has been running for about 3.5 months, glass has never been wiped for this shot (there is some algae fuzz, spot etc but not visible in shot). So much light, algae much?
> ...


Not TL. I read it all. Good post and awesome looking tanks. Especially the rimless in the first one. My LFS has a few large rimless tanks like that but they are stupid expensive.



Chronados said:


> (make sure you add more plants though)


I don't have any problem with that. I just need to find the plants.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

Deep clean in progress BTW. Pics in a moment. I'm checking my parameters right now and I can't ever seem to get a nitrate reading on my API master test kit. I'm looking up their instructions online (threw mine away I guess). 2 weeks without a water change and I've got 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites, and 0 nitrates. I've never gotten anything but 0 nitrate readings with this kit.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

Amazing what you get when you read the directions. 










Somewhere between 20 and 30 ppm. 

Cleaning in progress.


----------



## Chronados (Jan 28, 2013)

germanyt said:


> Amazing what you get when you read the directions.


I was about to say, 0ppm nitrates does not sound right considering your plant biomass and the fact that you said you were dosing EI. Make sure to thoroughly shake the reagent bottles (I bang them against a table first too) as one of the reagent bottles contains something that can settle over time. I can't remember which one, but my readings went from like 10-20 to 30-40 when I started doing this.


----------



## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

i'd still side with cutting nutrients

i won't say permanently, but enough that the water is in short supply, vacular plants will whether this this better than any algae as they've got stores of surplus to get through these droughts.

it's not so much to starve your plants, but so the plants will suck back the excess that's in the water column till there's nothing left that is in (currently) abundant supply for the algae


----------



## thejoe (May 23, 2013)

I'm with adding much more plants. as stated above, 5 or 6x as much as you have now.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

thejoe said:


> I'm with adding much more plants. as stated above, 5 or 6x as much as you have now.


Where do you get your plants?













After being cleaned off and trimmed.









Still using the bucket method until my apartment puts a faucet in that a water changer will attach to.



























This one is with 1 ballast turned off. Just 2 of the 4 bulbs are on.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)




----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

Fish back in.









CO2










I haven't added any ferts. Many have had different ideas on that. I think I might continue but with longer between dosing. What is the preferred method to dose plantex and iron? I'm not sure if I'm mixing it right. I have some mixed in a water bottle and I keep it in the fridge. All the ferts are from GLA so I think the iron is 11%. I just don't know much to add to 25 gallons.


----------



## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

Germanyt, ... what does plantex have in it for nutrients ?

skip dosing anything specific unless your noticing deficiencies in the plants.

i had an iron deficiency, dosed really heavy on iron, equal to almost 1ml straight undiluted pure iron additive on a 29 gallon tank the deficiency went away, the plants showing deficiencies got their color back, i stopped dosing iron.

had a potassium deficiency, dosing ph up (very cheap accessible potassium source) ... but unlike the iron i have to do this slowly, very very slowly, already the plants are doing better.

if the plants are showing no deficiencies, if the plants are still growing, then i have no reason to dose any nutrients or fertilizers into the water column.

read your plants, there's deficiencies and there's toxicities, ... and certain combinations will block out certain other nutrients, PH plays a huge role, and water PH is very different from soil PH when it comes to nutrient availability.

you can want to do all the stuff, putting in more and more because you know the plants can use it all, ... but if your adding everything because you can, your not adding anything because the plants need it, ... stop with the nutrients till you can find the balance of what to add, and when because your looking after your plants.

will it grow better with CO2, yes, ... will your PH be lower with CO2, yes, ... will CO2 take away from O2 in the water column, yes, ... will this affect the health of your fish, possibly.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

Flear said:


> Germanyt, ... what does plantex have in it for nutrients ?
> 
> skip dosing anything specific unless your noticing deficiencies in the plants.
> 
> ...


Couldn't say what's in it. 

http://greenleafaquariums.com/aquarium-fertilizers-supplements/plantex-csmb.html

According to the dosing recommendations in the fertilizer section you should alternate mirco and macro nutrients so I've been using dry macros on day and micros the next. Is there a guide to knowing what ferts need to be dosed for certain symptoms? If the algae stays minimal but my plants seem to be dying how do I know if I need more light? Or more potassium? Or more iron? Etc. I'm pretty good about researching things I need or want to know but with plant tanks it seems there isn't a lot of solid info published. Almost all of the info I find comes from forums and while some of it is good and based on lots of experience a lot of it, I feel, is anecdotal.

LOL at my user title being algae grower.


----------



## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

Plantex is micros...trace minerals. Essential, but may also be covered possibly by what's in your tap. Hard to say without comprehensive testing which most people don't care to do, myself included. 

I personally do not agree with the wait and see approach when it comes to nutrients and a high tech tank. If you're providing what they need, even if it's "too much", then you don't need to worry about deficiencies...never heard of toxicity levels being reached in an aquarium setting with any well known dosing method. There are nutrient deficiency charts out there, but they aren't 100% accurate. Environmental conditions, such as CO2 availability, can make symptoms deceiving. Nutrient combinations and availability are completely different than soils (specifically in regards to pH) since we're talking about dissolved solids in the water column and not adhered to charged soil particles. 

As for CO2, at the levels we see in aquariums DO2 is completely independent. Any direct effect on the fish are due to CO2 toxicity itself, not O2 deprivation. Hopefully you are reaching the levels you say you are, that will continue to help...don't touch that in my opinion. 

I still think you need to adjust the lighting. Even for a high tech tank you just don't need that much. Keep adding some fast growing stem plants as quick as possible. Again, just my suggestions!


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

jpappy789 said:


> Plantex is micros...trace minerals. Essential, but may also be covered possibly by what's in your tap. Hard to say without comprehensive testing which most people don't care to do, myself included.
> 
> I personally do not agree with the wait and see approach when it comes to nutrients and a high tech tank. If you're providing what they need, even if it's "too much", then you don't need to worry about deficiencies...never heard of toxicity levels being reached in an aquarium setting with any well known dosing method. There are nutrient deficiency charts out there, but they aren't 100% accurate. Environmental conditions, such as CO2 availability, can make symptoms deceiving. Nutrient combinations and availability are completely different than soils (specifically in regards to pH) since we're talking about dissolved solids in the water column and not adhered to charged soil particles.
> 
> ...


I've already backed down to 2 bulbs. I'm happy to add a dozen plants but I don't know where to get them from. Petsmart has the best selection but I can't seem to get those plants in the gel and plastic to grow.very well (I've put half a dozen in the tank and none have done well). Petco sells about 4 different potted stem plants. My LFS specializes in saltwater so they don't sell plants. Lots of coral though.


----------



## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Use this:
http://calc.petalphile.com/en/

Plantex CSM is inside DIY. Google EI and just follow it religiously; its the easiest way to fertilize without testing/experimenting and works for a wide range of variables. Growing plants optimally should be the goal, by the time deficiencies appear, plants already don't look at their best and algae might have already set in. 

Many deficiencies share similarities. It takes quite a bit of experience to diagnose plant health by sight given the many many different variables in a tank. Besides nutrients, there is flow, CO2, temperature, substrate, GH/KH, lighting, substrate irregularities, and many variables can be interdependent. Dosing EI saves the trouble of all the guess work.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Use this:
> http://calc.petalphile.com/en/
> 
> Plantex CSM is inside DIY. Google EI and just follow it religiously; its the easiest way to fertilize without testing/experimenting and works for a wide range of variables. Growing plants optimally should be the goal, by the time deficiencies appear, plants already don't look at their best and algae might have already set in.
> ...


Man that's an awesome calculator. My only question is without a scale how can I convert 724 mg plantex to tsp?

nvm. I can work it backwards by adjusting the 'my dose' in tsp to see what get's me to 724 mg.


----------



## jpappy789 (Jul 28, 2013)

germanyt said:


> I've already backed down to 2 bulbs. I'm happy to add a dozen plants but I don't know where to get them from. Petsmart has the best selection but I can't seem to get those plants in the gel and plastic to grow.very well (I've put half a dozen in the tank and none have done well). Petco sells about 4 different potted stem plants. My LFS specializes in saltwater so they don't sell plants. Lots of coral though.


Sorry, didn't mean to repeat myself I just didn't realize you turned the lighting aspect down a notch. Hopefully that helps!

Have you checked the forum here for plants? Lots of people practically giving away stems, cuttings, runners, etc. and you can trust 99% of the people here to give you healthy plants.

I've ordered online from quite a few sites. If you're interested I'm sure you could ask around for reviews here. Not sure if it's against the forum rules to do so or not, so it may have to be in private.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jpappy789 said:


> ...Have you checked the forum here for plants? Lots of people practically giving away stems, cuttings, runners, etc. and you can trust 99% of the people here to give you healthy plants.
> 
> I've ordered online from quite a few sites. If you're interested I'm sure you could ask around for reviews here. Not sure if it's against the forum rules to do so or not, so it may have to be in private.


Very true, there's no reason to have to rely on Petsmart or Petco for plants when there is plenty of good stuff right here on the cheap. Most have excellent feedback.


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

I'm going to order bottles of gh and kh solution from API. I have gh booster as well and don't even know if I need to use it. 

Also, a quarter tsp of plantex provides .5ppm iron which is in line with EI requirements. So no need to dose iron chelate as well as plantex. I've been super dosing iron it would seem.


----------



## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

jpappy and xiaoz gave you very good advise. You really don't need to hit a bullseye with the dosing. It's not an exact science. If you dose in the middle range of EI, provide co2 and adequate light your plants will have what they need. If you do that keep your light within range and provide water changes on a regular basis (religiously 50% to start anyway) you'll reduce your problems tremendously. If you need more light you can always run the 2nd set for just a hour or two midday. I've grown high-light plants that way by keeping the light low most of the day and providing just a short burst in midday. 

Most issues start with your tank simply not having a bio-filter to deal with what you having going on. You have a weak bio-filter. You have a low amount of slow growth plants and an HOB, with high-light. That's a tough combination. Even if you ran co2 off the chart there is only so much growth your going to get so the uptake of organics is weak. Increasing plant mass is good, but you can also reduce light period, use carbon and other organic absorbing media and keep your stock and feeding lean.

BTW here's a basic table you could use for EI. Note the tank ranges. If you do most of this you won't even need test kits anymore since your resetting the tank with the WC and dosing moderate amounts within range. 

http://www.aquascapingworld.com/magazine/images/stories/Issues/April2008/chartei.jpg


----------



## King of Hyrule (Apr 29, 2013)

Germant, did you see signs of deficiencies in plants before all this started? I'm in agreement with those that are suggesting you don't have enough plants, and too much fertilizer.


----------



## skoram (Aug 9, 2012)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Algae presence seldom correlate directly to singular factors such as light or CO2. Its about building up a systemic balance that tends towards plant growth rather than lower lifeforms such as algae. Low lifestock tanks seem easier to balance, same with low lighting. But ultimately its about finding a combination of growing plants. The reason why people reply slowly or give diametrically differing opinions (some recommend more CO2, some people say cut it!) is that not only is an eco system complex (there are many triggers for algae and therefore difficult to diagnose) but there are different methods for finding balance. Starting conditions and momentum matters as well.
> 
> Copying off my reply in another thread:
> Growing glosso carpet in a non-CO2 5 gal tank with 150 watts MH pendant (suspended above as to give equivalent of high par to a 3 ft tank). This has been running for about 3.5 months, glass has never been wiped for this shot (there is some algae fuzz, spot etc but not visible in shot). So much light, algae much?
> ...


I fully agree with Xiaozhuang. The high light, 30 ppm CO2 and EI dosing "strategy" is largely contingent on your plant mass. If you don't have enough plants, or don't have enough fast growing plants, you're going to have alot of excess resources.


----------



## Flear (Jul 10, 2013)

when specific nutrients are out of balance that allows for unwanted/undesired algae to bloom, ... does that turn out to be it's detrimental to plant health so the plants ability to suck back the nutrients is impaired while those undesired algaes have no such issue ?


----------



## germanyt (Jul 8, 2013)

King of Hyrule said:


> Germant, did you see signs of deficiencies in plants before all this started? I'm in agreement with those that are suggesting you don't have enough plants, and too much fertilizer.


Not really. The only thing I ever notice with my plants is that if they aren't growing great the stems get soft and die or the leaves lose color and clear a bit. I had 3 big bunches of moneywort lining the back of the tank and all of it died. The stems just turned to mush and limped over. My telanthera cardinalis did the same thing. Stems turned soft. A wendtii's leaves turned brown and just died. All of the plants I currently have were bought at the store in submerged pots with the exception of one Petco plant that came in a plastic tube and seems to be doing fine. I'm going to order plants this weekend. I just wish I knew what to order. I'd really like some more bushy plants like this rather than all stem plants and broad leaf plants. 











I really like this.










Pressurized co2 is on the list but it's costly and I don't want to start off with a cheap regulator. I'm leaning towards the basic dual stage from GLA. So with 5 times as many plants and more consistent co2 delivery I might be able to more accurately gauge my fertilizer needs. So I'm going to do one thing at a time in hopes of reducing algae significantly while getting closer to my goal setup. Starting with reduced light, more plants, then co2, and making final adjustments to nutrients. That's for all the help. At least now I feel like have a direction to go in.


----------

