# Need to plants but not to aquariums...150gallon build help



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

150 Tall - 48 x 24 x 31. So your tank is close to 3 foot tall not 4? Makes a big difference. 

As for lighting what are you looking at doing? DIY or purchase a fixture? It all depends upon the the type of lighting you want to use and what your budget is. 

Also CO2 added or low tech? On a big tank like you have these are critical questions to ask. CO2 grows faster you can get amazingly lush tanks, Low tech limits your plant choices but can be more flexible for the maintenance. 

Substrate choice also depends upon High Tech/Low tech and personal preference.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

EEEEK big whoops on that one 100% correct on the measurements there V! 48x24x31 is right sorry about that!

I absolutely don't want to do the CO2 at least not just yet... So i am def in the mindset low tech, and i understand the trade offs of low and high maybe lush wasn't a great word to use i just want some natural flowy green stuff instead of the crappy fake stuff i've been playing with for the last 3 years i want some low growing things for sure but i would very much like some nice tall follige to eat up some of the tallness of the tank
I am very much a DIY guy so the diy ideas would appeal to me id love to save money any where i can

The only sure things past this i know is that I would like to cap whatever i use as substrate for the plants with black blasting sand, and i know that the filtration will be a combination of a xp4 and a floral 304 also have plenty of heaters on hand


----------



## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

If you are willing to suspend the light about a foot above the top of the tank it will greatly ease your algae problems. You could order a Catalina Aquarium four foot long 4 bulb T5HO light, with the bulbs mounted so they are in groups of 2 bulbs, with the two groups about 8-9 inches apart, using an extra wide housing. Catalina makes their lights as ordered, and doesn't stock them, so it isn't expensive to have one specially made for you. This light should give you around 30 PAR at the substrate, when suspended a foot above the tank. That also gives the light more room to spread out to cover the whole tank better.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Hoppy thanks for the detailed response any idea on how much the fixture would cost me? Im guessing it would come without bulbs which i can pick those up at the local fish store... What types of bulbs would you suggest i would assume you will say 2 different type bulbs per group


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

I will be making a hood for the tank so the 1 ft suspension will be a no problem at all i will just make a rather large hood and suspend it up into it...


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Been doing alot of research in the mean time and find that alot of people seem to give the indication that with a tank of this size and depth that getting good growing plants And its almost a necessity to do CO2 i was originally opposed to the idea of this but would very much like to make a good go at this through first time...

Can you guys give me an idea on a good CO2 setup and a general cost on it im just wondering how often i will go through CO2 and what it will cost me regularly... If its 150 bucks to set it up and then 20 dollar bill every 4 months or so that wouldn't be too terribly bad i guess 

Give me idea what im getting myself into?


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

A low tech, big tank with low maintenance. Sounds a lot like what I did.

I also had lot of fun making a DIY- CFL hood. I put ten 23W CFL hood. For the added depth of your tank I'd probably put 15 in there. T5 fixtures are also pretty nice and you can attach them to the top of the tank. If your going to have a hood it really doesn't matter what the lights look like in my opinion. 










For substrate you could toss in just about any good commercial mix as a base, or if your feeling adventurous potting soil. I'm using the Carrib Sea stuff in another tank now capping some potting soil. It adds in some nutrient storage capacity (CEC) underneath. The sand itself is also a pretty good substrate to grow just about everything. As long as your fertilize it will work.

As for CO2 - You can do lush large plants without it. It just limits your plant choices and takes longer as I mentioned. Here's my 125 gallon 72x18x24.


http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/yourtanks.php?do=view&id=10602

Crypts, Swords, Vals & Anubis fill up the tank.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow V your tank is incredible! And your tanks lighting is very unusual but i like it, i am surprised to see that you can grow a tank like that without CO2 just as mentioned before i really wanted to shy away from CO2 if i could help it and its great to see that you are able to do such a thing without

My initial though was to use about 2 inches of potting soil in the bottom capped by the black sand that i would like to use, use root tabs with every plant i put in... Would you think that is a good start?


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

I guess you could say i would really like a cheat sheet to a almost guaranteed success if that's even possible lol 

I see that your profile says you don't own a test kit for parameters which i am surprised at and also find very happy to see, nothing worse than stressing over parameters... I also see you dose weekly frets just wondering what your putting in as its obvious its working!


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

We all would like a cheat sheet when we start out.

As for a test kit, it just takes patience and an understanding of how it all works together ---Mostly just patience

Potting soil-I'm just trying one out in a 15 gallon. So far the plants are growing well but the water is coffee colored from the leaching. Pretty funny actually. The Scarlet badis is loving it. It might work out for you but I can't give you an opinion yet. I'd just use the straight blasting sand if you like that look. I dose ferts in the big tank so a rich substrate is not really that important. Besides over-time the lovely black organic matter that collects in the substrate provides a good growing medium.

As for my secret fertilizer recipe... Not much of a secret. All of the below fits nicely in a gallon freezer bag. 5 heaping KFC spoons per week after a water change. 3 or 4 midweek once in a while if I think the tank is looking like it needs it or I did a massive pruning. I also occasionaly dose some chelated iron and calcium sulfate as I've got very soft water. I've tweaked the ratios a bit on the ingredients over time. 

A couple of times I've accidently dosed a little bit too much iron. A lovely yellow colored tank until the next water change. Also pretty funny. 

As it's grown its not always been pretty. Algae outbreaks, and some nutrient deficiencies as when the plants were small I dosed a lot smaller amounts.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

I figure that with the 3d background our amount of water will probably be about the same so those ferts will work well for me too hopefully, throwing around the idea of the cfls like yours but im thinking maybe just some t5 units from lowes or home depot... Do you believe that the 4 bulbs there would be good like mentioned above, i am also rather interested at the fact that cfls work... Is there a t5 bulb that i can get that could be used instead of the local fish store stuff?


----------



## sadchevy (Jun 15, 2013)

I use MGOPM and Saf-t-sorb in my 125g and other tanks. Over my 125g I use 4 6" brooder lamps with 23w 6500k CFL bulbs. Over my 75g and 55g I have regular shoplight fixtures with 6500k t-8 bulbs. The depth of your tank will most likely need a little more light than that. Home Depot sells a high bay fixture that would probably work well for you. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia...y-Hanging-Fixture-IB-632-MVH/202193185?N=c7bu combined with these bulbs http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-...-Pack-422963/203466587?N=bm3zZ1z0trbkZ1z0vvri If 6 of the 6500k's is to much then it would be easy to swap in a couple 3000k or 4100k bulbs to dim it down some. With some DIY skills it would be possible to make the fixture do a 2-4-6-4-2 cycle of lighting over the tank.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Just took a trip to my local lowes and did some price checking and I'm thinking that the cfls would be my best bet to save a few bucks and be able to put my lighting just where I want it to get a nice even coat of light across the entire tank,I am a diyer by nature and have wire wire nuts and around the house anyways so I think that is the way I will go... Did a little reading looks like putting a sheet of thin aluminum on the top of my hood to help reflect light back down would be good

V I see you mounted yours horizontally, since I have an option do you think a horizontal mount is best or should I build my canopy a bit taller and go for vertical mounted ?


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

ziggnick said:


> V I see you mounted yours horizontally, since I have an option do you think a horizontal mount is best or should I build my canopy a bit taller and go for vertical mounted ?


My mounting direction was pretty much a space issue. I purchased a tank & stand + filters + other junk off a guy an craigslist. That was almost 7 years ago now. It was a Christmas present the year we paid off all of the school loans etc.. and started building up savings. (bought our house 2 years later). At this time only the stand remains, and I've been thinking of rebuilding a nicer one - as soon as I get the honeydo list down a bit.

Also if you don't have a reflector horizontal is best. It has the greatest surface of the light bulb exposed to the tank. With a good reflector you can mount it vertically. 

I've been thinking about using a galvanized round duct, cut in half, and coated with the metallic spray paint as a reflector. I'm thinking of picking up a dremel for other projects to do the cutting with. 

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-Flow-6-in-x-5-ft-Round-Metal-Duct-Pipe-CP6X60/100125106


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Just wondering here don't you think the duct work itself is shiny enough or am I missing something?

I wonder if mounting a mirror under each horizontally positioned bulb say a 5"x5" square wouldn't be better? Just liquid nail one under each one when you have them all positioned 

I think I will go with this method and stick with the horizontal mounts, I'll try 16 like you suggested 15+1 just because I'm anal and want a even number, Im thinking staggering them in a zigzag pattern just to make sure I cover front to back with light...sound like a good plan?


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

It's galvanized so over time they oxidize and turn mostly non-reflective. They are shiney when you buy them but don't stay that way for long. 

The best reflector is a parabolic curve. A flat mirror will help but is not as effective. Don't overdo the lighting however. With a good reflector I'd take out 2 or three lights above my tank. I figure I'm losing 30% or better of the light not having a reflector.


----------



## eme012 (May 5, 2013)

I'm a nion to planted tanks but I'm an electrician and river too. I refitted an old aqueon 20" light with a 2 lamp ballast and lamps to up the wattage from 15 to 52 watts from a cfl fixture I had around. My deal point is that home depot sells shiny metal flashing on their roofing dept that's aluminum, 12" wide and thin. Still used my tin snips to cut but it was very easy and I was able to cut notches for the tombstones. Worked very well and in use now. No pics because I'm at work sorry.


----------



## FishFinatic (Oct 24, 2011)

White paint works just as good or better than a the reflective mirror like surface you are referring too. Just paint the inside of your hood white and your done.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

So your saying no reflector just paint the underside gloss white with a exterior latex paint?


----------



## FishFinatic (Oct 24, 2011)

Yeah, white paint reflects all colors in the light spectrum and makes for a very efficient reflector. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

A mirror finish is of course the most reflective. White paint is second best but can be used.

I've used white paint when I slapped together some lights over the top of two 10g growout tanks. Spare plywood peices and some lamp replacement sockets and cord. Inserted two cfls and It can grow about everything. They are in the garage so the wife doesn't complain that they are ugly.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Funny you said that V I've got 2 spare 10 gallons in the basement i was thinking about maybe experimenting with a 10 gallon first lol


----------



## THE V (Nov 17, 2011)

They've been setup like that for a few years. Building the little stand and fixtures took me all of about a hour. There not much to look at so I'm thinking of doing some modifications. Perhaps if I make them pretty enough the wife will let them migrate into the house. 

I've got the dirt bug now and a bag of potting soil sitting in the garage. The two 10 gallons are going to get some nicer looking fixtures and maybe better stand. I'm thinking a couple of little shelfs to save some space and make room to move the 2 gallon off of my workbench. I've also got those two little 2 gallon hex's that I found when I cleaned out the garage over the holidays. I've got a half a sheet of plywood and some decent scraps left-over from the bookcases I built. 

I'm also debating messing around with one of those paintball CO2 set-ups. 

Oh so many things to do


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

I know we visited this earlier but on the big tank if i use potting soil as my base with a fee root tabs mixed about and then cap it with my black sand i planned on do you believe i will need to alter my light plans? As of our last conversion seems like by painting the underside.of my hood white i can subtract 2 or 3 lights so with the initial 15 u quoted that brings me down to about 12 23 watt bulbs... So does the dirt play a factor in this too?


----------



## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

*some thoughts on light and CO2*

ziggnick, I did not see anyone answer your question about CO2, so I thought I would give you at least some response. I have never run CO2 in my tanks, so I cannot answer a question about price. However, I think you certainly can start your tank without CO2, and see how it goes, and there is an excellent chance you will not ever find a need to add it.

Basically, plants and algae both need 3 things to grow- light, CO2, and fertilizer. And if you have those things available for the plants, you are going to have some algae. However, as you have those things better in balance for the plants, you get more plant growth and less algae growth. There are even some super gurus on this forum that have things balanced for their tanks to the point they have essentially no algae. (I am not one of them, great sadness). 

Fertilizer is the hardest way to control algae- pretty much always, if you have enough fertilizer to grow plants, you have enough for algae. So that leaves putting light and CO2 in balance. Your tank is big enough that I cannot imagine how DIY CO2 would give enough to be of benefit, so that is out. CO2 tanks are pricey. You could add carbon by dosing Seachem Excel or gluteraldehyde to your tank. This might be an option if you want to only dose for a few months to help the plants grow more quickly at first. The plants definitely grow more slowly in a low tech tank.

So then you need to balance your light for the amount of CO2 you are providing to your tank. If you find that algae is going crazy out of control, you can always shorten the length of time your lights are on. The idea is to cut back the light until light, not CO2, is the factor limiting growth of algae (and plants) in your tank. A similar idea is to add floating plants to the top of your tank, to block a portion of the light reaching the tank. These also soak up excess fertilizer in the water. Another option is turning the lights off for a few hours (usually about 4) in the middle of the day. This is the theory: when the lights are not on, the plants are not photosynthesizing. Therefore, they are not using CO2, so the CO2 levels can build back up in your tank. Plants can kick photosynthesis on and off more quickly in response to light than can algae, so turning the lights off helps the plants more than it helps the algae. This can give the plants an edge over the algae. Some people have found splitting the lighting period like this to be very beneficial (it certainly was tremendously helpful for my tank). Some people have not found it to be helpful. I think if CO2 is truly limiting for your tank, it should be helpful.

So those are some ideas about how to set up your tank so that you do not need a fancy CO2 setup. And keep in mind- if you try this for awhile and it just is not working, you always can add the CO2 later! (But low maintenance tanks are so much more fun, I don't know why you would want to do it


----------



## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

*a few plant suggestions*

Also, you had asked about plants. Most (but not all) plants CAN work in a low-tech setup, but some types tend to work better than others. Here are a few suggestions, but there are a lot of plants I don't know anything about and those may work well also.

Let's start at the bottom of your tank. This is going to be the lowest light part of the tank, especially with your deeper tank, so if you use some short plants, they should be ones that truly do well under low light. Anubias, java ferns, and crypts all will meet this criteria. Moss is another thing to consider.

This reminds me- I think you mentioned a custom-built rock wall in the back. I don't know what it looks like (pics please?? Sounds neat) but maybe you would like to attach plants to the rocks. Anubias and moss are good options for that, java fern may work also.

I know less about the tall plants because my tanks are not that tall. However, some types of crypts (balansea comes to mind) and many vals tend to be tall. Swords can be tall, but may or may not do well in low tech. They like lots of fertilizer, give them plenty of root tabs. Some java ferns also are taller (trident comes to mind). Also, any kind of stem plant (there are hundreds) will grow tall. I tend to not like stem plants because in my aquarium, the lower portion has few to no leaves growing where it is super low light. This means they look funny- I have these long spindly stems with bushy growth only right on top. Some people get them to do well, however, so you definitely can consider them.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow naturelady all awesome info and so much there i had to reread a few times to totally comprehend it all and im sure ill be revisiting it later especially about the time i will be putting plants in... 

You didn't mention what do you use to fertilize and what do you use as substrate?

I will work on pictures for everyone, i normally get on here with my phone sense the awful spelling in the title lol darn autocorrect but i will see if i can hop on the ipad and figure out how to ad some pics


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)




----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)




----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Well looks like i figured it out! both are in progress pictures and i am slightly further i am in the process of just layering the colors now to make it look more realistic hopefully, got back burned a little bit was hoping to.be done by now but had to refinish a bedframe for my bedroom i picked up off craigslist but there it is hopefully ad a finished product pic soon also have some drift wood im going to use that will look like its growing out of the rocks is my hope


----------



## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

I use an inert substrate (blasting sand). I have root tabs in the sand and I dose the water column with ferts only about once per month (after each water change). To be honest, this probably is the absolute bare minimum of "enough" because I slacked off this summer (too many other things going on) and I saw some pretty obvious deficiencies in my plants. My underwater plants are so slow growing, they did not have much that was noticeable. However, I have plants growing emersed, out of the top of the tank, and some of those leaves turned pretty yellow before I got things corrected.

Your idea of organic bottom, sand cap, and a few root tabs is an excellent way to start a low tech tank.

Here are two threads on another forum site with excellent information on fertilizer, light, and CO2 in a tank - one for no extra CO2 at all, one for adding gluteraldehyde (carbon). 

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/433-Non-CO2-methods

http://www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/4266-Hybrid-methods-fusing-dry-start-excel-with-non-CO2

And now, a question for you: What is currently going on with your tank? Is it only water and the rock background? You said something about leaching pH, I think.

I ask because I am not familiar with what you are doing. But, I do know that if you take awhile to establish plants before adding fish, you end up with much happier plants and fish. Unfortunately, it is far too easy to get impatient. So I was wondering if whatever is currently going on in your tank might be compatible with starting plants. The second link I posted discusses a method of combining two different methods of establishing plants: 1. dry start (just do a search on this forum or Google to learn about it, there's tons of info out there) 2. dosing Excel (which I mentioned earlier). To properly establish plants does take several months, so it is easy to get impatient. However, keep in mind that once your tank is set up as a low tech tank, plants grow very slowly. So even though several months seems like a long time, these methods help grow the tank in more quickly than it otherwise would.


----------



## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

ziggnick said:


> Wow naturelady all awesome info and so much there i had to reread a few times to totally comprehend it all and im sure ill be revisiting it later especially about the time i will be putting plants in...


You are welcome. I am glad you found the info helpful. You were asking pretty smart questions, and it seems like you are taking the start to your aquarium slow, which is the right thing to do, so I thought I would maybe help steer you in the right direction. Definitely hanging around this forum is the way to go- there is tons to learn.

And your rock background looks really neat. I hope you've got some ideas for how you want to fill it in. There are lots of possibilities with a simple, yet very interesting, background like what you have.


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Well as of right now it is still dry when it has all the coats it needs to.be just cycle with water and a filter for awhile so the lime from the mortor mix will leach out as it severely will make the oh in the water swing so a few water changes for 2 weeks and.it will be ready to go but i can't ad plants until after and.i probably won't even.ad any substrate till thats done

I am pretty set on the root tabs with a base soil and capping it with black blasting sand ill figure out the plants i want before the first fill hopefully so that i can plant and not have to stir up the soil again is my hopes, im thinking a few tall things but not many mostly looking for a low maybe 4" tall plants to.litter the bottom and.maybe the front.of the tank.with something that is very small but will carpet nicely


----------



## ziggnick (Jan 30, 2013)

Ill see if i can make a go of the plants that are actually planted but i really like your idea of maybe tbeing some plants to the rocks, between.that and the algae growth i think it will look very very cool and hopefully realistic And trust me im with you on the impatience but i think i will try and get it balanced like you said, this tank will go in my bedroom so a work in progress will only really be seen by me unless i want to show others... I have a 45 gallon acrylic tank in there now but everything is fake but the fish but its very relaxing
To lay in bed and watch till my eyes about fold, I've for the lights on a remote for Christmas lights i keep on mu night stand so when im done no need even getting out of bed lol

Lord listen to me i am asking for algae growth on the rocks but i wish i could get away with it only there lol i can dream right lol


----------



## naturelady (Dec 14, 2009)

ziggnick said:


> God help me i am asking for algae growth on the rocks but i wish i could get away with it only there lol i can dream right lol


Hah! Well, look at it this way- if you can keep your tank balanced so that you get only a little algae growth, then maintenance is pretty easy. Hopefully you don't get BBA, but if you do, you just cut off those leaves because it looks black and yucky. The other leaves that have algae are green anyway, so no one can tell. You leave the algae on the rocks. And you use a magnet or some other tool to scrub the algae off the glass each time you clean. And then your tank has just the very low algae level you want! roud:


----------

