# Changing Dosing to Defeat Thread Algae: Opinions Please



## JennysPlanties (Sep 30, 2007)

OK, so he algae problem in my tank has certainly been getting better. Very little BBA now that CO2 levels are consistent, barely any GSA, and that 's about it... EXCEPT:

Thread algae is still choking the crap out of a lot of my plants. It's an every day pruning issue, and it's so UGLY! I had to pull up all of my Marsilea because the thread algae (or maybe hair) was just growing out of control in between it. It was even getting into the substrate around the base of all of the marsilea. It became impossible to pick out so, I ripped out the foreground and will let it grow back. 

This thread algae is SO bad... clumps of it grow overnight, it's amazing!

I've read a bunch of threads about this and have come to the conclusion that I want to try overdosing potassium to defeat The Thread. Saw a thread where someone said he was dosing potassium through K2SO4 to 60 ppm. By my calculations that would be about 1/2 tsp. per 20 gallons of water 3x a week. That seems like an awful lot to me. I've only been dosing it 1/2 tsp once a week in my 55 gal tank.

This is my modified dosing schedule I'm starting tonight.

Any opinions/suggestions as to if it is ok, and will the upped levels of K be able to help?? Should I add even more K2SO4?

Thx!

55 Gal, 206W light, high CO2 levels

Mon: 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/2 tsp K2SO4
Tue: 1/8 Plantex, 1/2 tsp KNO3
Wed: 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/4 tsp MgSO4, 1/2 tsp K2SO4
Thu: 10 mL Flourish, 1/2 tsp KNO3
Fri: 1/8 tsp KH2PO4, 1/4 tsp MgSO4, 1/2 K2SO4
Sat: 1/2 tsp Plantex, 1/2 tsp KNO3


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

You ha d anasty issue to start with and that was due to what?
Not dosing, rather CO2.

The dosing is less the issue, the residual leftover algae are.

So try this: do a 3 day blackout + daily water changes, + full Excel treatment.

That will kill what is there.
Keep the CO2 up, and dose thereafter as normal.

No one has really seen high K+ = less algae really.
I had high levels of K+ for about 8 years and never saw much.
Algae does not care, nor do plants as long as there's enough.

206W on a 55 gallon tank, try using less light, like 2x 54 W T5's.
That's more than enough to grow anything you'd ever want.

Which is about 1/2 the intensity, and is at least 2X easier to manage(CO2, rate of growth for both plants and algae etc).

Mistake intensity goes way up with light intensity.

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## original kuhli (Nov 28, 2006)

Jenny, do you have harder water (mine is about 300 ppm GH)? You have pretty much the same issue I do. I used to have a bunch of green spot algae till I started dosing regularily. I'd had my CO2 stable at a pH of 7.0 when a CO2-less pH was about 7.8 (tap is 8.1) and still had the green spot, it was dosing that took care of it.

I guess its possible that I could use more CO2 but the last time I pushed it that hard I ended up with some dead wood shrimp...wood shrimp I've just finally after a year replaced! Its possible the shrimp died of other causes though...


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Keep CO2 going with blackouts?*

Tom, for your blackout recommendation, should the CO2 also be turned off during the blackout periods since no photosynthesis is occurring?

Also, for the blackout technique, is incidental room light to be blocked out as well (i.e., should the glass of the tank be covered with an opaque material)?
Curious,

Will


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

For this method, you need not fret over room light, unless you have a lot.
No CO2, increase surface movement till you are done, water changes, good pruning after etc is key.

OK, the poster is adding plenty of nutrients for this tank/lighting and mentioned past CO2 issues. The likelyhood of it being dosing related assuming/if they have been doing this routine is very low.

Hair, thread and BBA can be induce via CO2 being too low.
BO will kill what is there, but then after is up to you to keep things growing and doing well.

It's not hard, but just keep up on things, when we do not, we get algae, we kill it etc, then reset the tank, this becomes very old hat very fast.

We know why things do not look that good or get algae etc, it's us:thumbsup: 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## JennysPlanties (Sep 30, 2007)

Tom,

The dosing sched. I listed above is something I just started last night. Prior to that I was only dosing 1/2 tsp K2SO4 once a week, and 1/2 tsp KNO3 twice a week.

Is it possible that I was under dosing and that by adding in the extra K2SO4 and KNO3 I'll help the issue?

As for changing the lights, that's kind of an impossibility at this point, all three fixtures are wired together... 

I was going to try Excel treatment, but was wary since I have corkscrew vals, anacharis, and riccia in my tank and from what I've read they don't do so well with Excel...

Thx for your help Tom, much appreciated! I'm going to try my tweaked dosing for a week, if no success, I'll do your blackout suggestion and see if that will end the Thread Takeover.


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Summary of what I'll try*

Thanks for that clarification, Tom! I also have a 55gal with pressurized CO2, but with *MORE light*: 4x65w bulbs at 10,000k. While 2 of those bulbs are only on for 3 hours a day (during the first part of the 10 hour photo period), it's obviously waaaay too much so I'm yanking two of the 4 bulbs. The target of my efforts is a persistent blanket of algae on my older anibus leaves.

I'm a data nut so I take readings of the following with every water change (15-25% changes between 2-5 times per week), with the readings being fairly consistent in the following ranges:

NO3: 5-10ppm
PO4: .5-1ppm
K: 2-3
pH: 6.8-7
KH: 5-7
GH: 6-7
Fe: .05-.1
Temp: 84 (keep it high for discus which I don't have yet - want to get plants right first)

For about 13 months now, the plants have been growing/propagating under these conditions. I have not lost any. Older leaves of all plants do get algae (which I remove). Exception is java fern - nothing seems to grow on it.

From your suggestion, I'm going to:

- Cut the CO2 and light for 3 days (blackout period)
- Make 25% daily water changes daily during blackout
- Dose Excell during the blackout (5 capfulls per day)
- Increase water surface movement during blackout
- After the blackout, remove 1/2 my light so that I'll have 2x65w bulbs at 10,000k

Questions:

1) Should I continue my fert dosing during the 3 day blackout?
2) Any mistakes above; any missing tasks?

Regards,

Will


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*From 6.8 to 7.5 in 24 hours!*

Oh man! I just did my water change and collected my usual data:

NO3: 5
PO4: .5
pH: !!7.5!!
KH: 6
GH: 7
Fe: .1
Temp: 84

My pH skyrocketed with just 24 hours of no CO2 injection/light. I hope that's expected. With a KH of 6, that would put the CO2 value in at around 5.7!

I did my usual 25% water change and dosed with:

N: 5ml
P: 1ml
Fe: 5ml
and then the excell overdose of 40ml.

I wonder how day 2 will go. 

Will


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Blackout: Day 2*

Values from blackout day 2 are about the same as day 1

NO3: 10
PO4: .5
pH: 7.4
KH: 5
GH: 6
Fe: .1
Temp: 84

With a KH of 5, that would put the CO2 value in at around 6.

Performed a 20% water change and dosed with:

Trace: 5ml
P: 1ml


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

willbldrco said:


> T
> 
> I'm a data nut so I take readings of the following with every water change (15-25% changes between 2-5 times per week),


That will not last 



> with the readings being fairly consistent in the following ranges:
> NO3: 5-10ppm
> PO4: .5-1ppm
> K: 2-3
> ...


Since you are a data nut, how about we get taking the right measurement methods to get the right data?
That will slow you down real quick, do you calibrate the test kits you are using with known standards?
Do you know how to make known standards?

If not, and if you plan on relying at all on test kits, you must do this, do not rely on other folk's data, often they have a replicate of 1.
Which means you cannot say much about the test you did on that kit.

You need to have a lot more consensus.



> For about 13 months now, the plants have been growing/propagating under these conditions. I have not lost any. Older leaves of all plants do get algae (which I remove). Exception is java fern - nothing seems to grow on it.
> 
> From your suggestion, I'm going to:
> 
> ...


I'd focus much more on doing larger % water changes, 50%2x a week, especially if you plan on properly caring and feeding the dicus.
Then you do not need any test kits.
You can dose based on the known make up of the replacement water, and the 50 % left over in the tank.

Basically you have an error of 2 whatever you dose for those 3-4 days between the 50% water change.
You remove far more waste and NH4 feces, algae spores etc by doign water changes and maintain a nice clean tank.

If you dose say 15ppm of NO3 each 3-4 day peroid total(say 5ppm day), then the max possible buld up will be 30ppm of NO3, which is fine.
But really, it'll be lower due to plant uptake.

If you want a tighter range, say 24ppm, then do 60-70% water changes etc.

It's unlikely you will run out at the upper ranges suggested here and nothing will accumulate where it would ever cause any issues for any discus or other sensitive species.

The same method is used for PO4, traces, GH, etc.

Very simple and takes the testing out of the hobby and puts you into more an aquarist mode: clean, grow fish and garden the tank more.

I think your issue is still likely CO2.
Might want to bump it up a tad, lower the temps to 82F, that's fine for discus. They even bred at that temp. 

With a KH of 6, target about pH of 6.7.
Also, get a drop checker, they are cheap and easy to do/look at etc.
While you might need more CO2 than the pH/KH suggest, I tend to eye ball the rest slowly, watching the plants and algae.
You can hit a sweet CO2 spot much easier with less, rather than more light.

So more light is not better, it's just more work, more CO2, and more disaster if something goes wrong(which it will, just wait, happens to all) etc. 

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

> > I'm a data nut so I take readings of the following with every water change (15-25% changes between 2-5 times per week),
> 
> 
> That will not last


Oh man, I hope you're right! I've been testing, testing, testing for 13 months now. While I don't have standards (well, I do for K testing), I do use a consistent test method which allows me to map the trends via graphing software to what I see in the tank. It's alot of work (as you immediately noticed!), so I'm going to follow your advice with larger water changes and dosing method and see where it leads (if I can figure out how to store 50g of aging water!). Frankly, I've been very happy with the appearance of my tank over the past year:











I'd just like to get rid of algae on slow-growers and to reach that *"aquarist mode" promisland* you mention.  

*Regarding discus*: I've been doing regular smaller (20-25%) water changes because on the discus forums I've read that you want to get uneaten food out of the tank as soon as possible. It seems the 50% change only twice weekly you recommend would fall short of that. Perhaps uneaten food isn't that big of deal in a heavily planted tank? Hungry plants and all...

I'm also interested in understanding the relationship between my *high water temp and the CO2* values you elude to. Would you elaborate on that?

Finally, I have hard water (Boulder, CO) and have to mix my tap water with RO water at about 50% to keep GH below 8. This also has an affect on KH. Perhaps I should let GH/KH drift up to values of 9/8 respectively by dropping the tap/RO proportion? Do you see value in doing that?

I'm so glad you mentioned lighting as a key factor. I'm eager to see what affect the lower levels will have on all aspects of the tank!

Thank you for your sage instruction!
Regards,

Will


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## plantbrain (Dec 15, 2003)

Discus do not appear to be bothered by high GH's, the KH is the one to worry over.

Make ref solutions, trends might be wrong as well.
Do not believe everything you think.
Confirm it instead.
Test it etc.

Otherwise you can end up believing your own baloney.

To make ref solutions:
http://www.barrreport.com/estimativ...o3-po4-reference-solutions-repost-left-c.html

Simple.

Then you have plenty to use.

NO3 and PO4 are the main ones to test.
Do not test Fe or K, you simply are wasting time, same for GH.

KH yes.
RO and Tap are variable as well.
However, once you hit a sweet CO2 amount, then those can vary some without any change in the CO2, as long as the rate being added is the same.

Don't listen to bare bottom discus zealotry.
That's for overstuffed, maxed growth, bare bottom tanks, breeding max brood etc.
That's fine if that is your goal.
But it's not.

So 2x a week 50% is fine.
Feed little at a time, not all at once, then the waste is processed much better and residual NH4 is less, and of course NH4 levels ar elower in a planted tank: direct uptake and O2 given off, bacteria? They convert it but it's using a lot of O2 to do so.

Temp= higher=> more plant growth
Lower= less growth
Same with these fish, but not that much.
82F works well in virtually cases, same with plants, 84 does also, but there's no need to go that high.

Warmer water holds less O2 and CO2 at ambient conditions(all gases for that matter).

Regards, 
Tom Barr


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Blackout complete*

The 3-day blackout and Excel treatment is complete and all algae is dying or gone except for the spot (?) algae on my driftwood and slow-growers. There appear to be two types: A *black type* (not raised, but firmly cemented on) and a *green type* (more bushy than the black type). Those algae seems unphased by the blackout and Excel:










Chillin' otto included for scale.  He's about 1" long.

*Remaining questions*:

What is a "drop checker" and what's it used for?
Next step in getting rid of the spot (?) algae: Bleach treatment of affected plants?

The *next steps* are to put into place Tom's suggestions of:

Cutting light back to ~2.5w/gal (11 hour photo period?)
Bumping up CO2 (perhaps I'll spurge for a pH probe/controller?)
Drop the temp to 82 degrees
Move to twice weekly 50% water changes (need to get bigger aging container)
Move to the estimative index method of fert dosing
Make reference solutions from scratch to compare tested samples from tank
 
This has been a great learning experience! :icon_smil 

Will


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

willbldrco said:


> What is a "drop checker" and what's it used for?
> Next step in getting rid of the spot (?) algae: Bleach treatment of affected plants?
> 
> The *next steps* are to put into place Tom's suggestions of:
> ...


A drop checker is used to determine what your real time CO2 levels are in parts per million.

If you do have GSA (green spot algae), then you might be able to get it to slow down and actually recede by dosing phosphates into the water column. I would advise not to dose too much as it can have an adverse effect on some plants.

I dosed phosphates at about 3 times the recommended amounts for the size the size of my tank and the GSA dissappeared pretty quickly. My glossostigma also took a bit of a hit though. Some of it yellowed and melted away.

I have cut back my phosphate dosing to one day a week at 1/3 of the recomended level and now things are back on track for me. No problems with algae and no problems with plants burning up.

I did not bother to test phosphate levels during this process. I probably should have. :icon_roll


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## BiscuitSlayer (Apr 1, 2005)

JennysPlanties - How are things working for you with regards to the thread/hair algae?


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## willbldrco (Mar 24, 2007)

*Progress!*

Following the advice from Tom and others in this thread, I've got a nicer tank with LESS work! Thanks all!!

I do have a few outstanding questions:


With only two 50% water changes a week, I find my KH has doubled from 5 to 10 degrees!! It comes out of the tap at 7 so I cut it with RO water. As I've dropped my water change frequency by 1/2 with Tom's method, however, I find my KH is much to high for my ultimate goal of adding Discus (KH needs to be around 4-5). Is it simply a matter of cutting my tap with more RO?


With my increased CO2 injection, I saw my pH fall from 6.8 to 6.6 (with the lights on). On a lark, I tested the pH with the lights off and it was 7.0! Is that daily swing going to be a problem for the fish/plants?


After pumping up my CO2 injection (to much success with the battle with green spot algae!), I find my CO2 is showing 74mg/L!! This is with pH test kit showing 6.6 and KH test kit at around 10. As the fish aren't belly-up (and in fact rarely come to the surface except to eat), this can't be right. So I bought a CO2 "Drop Checker" to measure CO2 more accurately. Sadly it came with no instructions. How do I use this thing? It came with the glass device and a dropper of liquid.


I've never had red algae before and now I've got a bit of it. It comes off easily from the glass and the tougher plant leaves, but I'd like to know what it likes about my new tank status. The lesser light? The greatly increased CO2 or KH?

Answers/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Regards,

Will


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