# Tis the question.....to vac or not to vac.



## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Organics build up in substrate, removing organics reduces algae's source of food and unnecessary contribution to overall tank pollution. 

Remove by gently vacuuming exposed substrate, and when pulling up plants to trim give the area a good vac.

This is of course for non-buffering substrates that can be disturbed without large consequences.


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## Jennifier (Apr 28, 2019)

How often do you pull up plants? Can I re-scape? I thought you just left them alone 

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Jennifier said:


> How often do you pull up plants? Can I re-scape? I thought you just left them alone
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Some of my plants grow over 1" per day, so I have to either trim them and leave the stumps to regrow, or pull up the stumps (because they get ratty after a cut or two). Pulling up offers room to get the vac in there and clean out mulm and crud.


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## Grobbins48 (Oct 16, 2017)

Jennifier said:


> How often do you pull up plants? Can I re-scape? I thought you just left them alone
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


What substrate are you using, and what plants? It really depends on quite a bit of factors. As @Quagulator mentioned, inert substrate like ours is easy to do fast growing plants that you pull up, top, and replant with no mess.

As for vacuum, I do this every water change (weekly) with the same method as mentioned above. My substrate is Black Diamond Blasting Sand.


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## Jennifier (Apr 28, 2019)

I have caribsea eco complete. I don't vacuum like the videos where they tumble all the gravels, but I do shove about half a pinky nail into the rocks and keep going till it's clear. I water change 1-2 a week

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## Quagulator (May 4, 2015)

Jennifier said:


> I have caribsea eco complete. I don't vacuum like the videos where they tumble all the gravels, but I do shove about half a pinky nail into the rocks and keep going till it's clear. I water change 1-2 a week
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


Eco-Complete is amazing at trapping detritus / mulm.... so vacuuming is a good idea with it


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I'm with Quagulator on this. Doing a light surface cleaning with each water change with a deep cleaning every time you pull and replant is highly recommended with Eco-Complete. If you're leery of vacuuming around your plants make sure to swish your hand around the groups to get detritus out into the water so it can be removed with the dirty water.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Phil Edwards said:


> I'm with Quagulator on this. Doing a light surface cleaning with each water change with a deep cleaning every time you pull and replant is highly recommended with Eco-Complete. If you're leery of vacuuming around your plants make sure to swish your hand around the groups to get detritus out into the water so it can be removed with the dirty water.


+1. 

The more uber clean your tank conditions, the easier everything else will be.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Oh no mulm, it’s death on wing for your aquarium.










Tank (7gal) at 3.5wk after setup, intentionally installing and seeding gravel bed with 2 big ol’ sheets of mulm. This is after I cut out 2/3 of plant mass of Rotala and threw away 2 handfuls of red root floaters. Zero cycling, zero ammonia, zero nitrite since day 2, steady 10’ish ppm of nitrate, no co2 injection, 1/2 strength dosing with thrive. All started with 3 small sprigs of Rotala planted in mulm bed at each end of tank and 5-6 pieces red red floater. Near zero algae of any shape or form. Only problem is with surface scum but I’ve got a mini surface extractor on order to take care of that. Ph6.6-6.8, kh5, gh around 8.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Mulm's not a bad thing to start a tank off with if it's put down on the glass before adding substrate and/or used to seed the filter. The trick is making sure it doesn't accumulate once the system's up and running "for real".


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

I had the same question starting out. What I've found is that having one amano per every 2 or 3 gallons and proper fertilization keeps my substrate very clean.

Still, I will hover the vacuum an inch or two above my carpet plants and swish it back and forth just to clean up some extra detritus that is laying around. Same for my horizontal rock surfaces. I also swish my taller steam plants around to get gunk off of them.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Mulm naturally accumulates at most substrate surfaces of every aquatic ecosystem on this planet and is broken down within top 1.5-2” oxic layers of substrate as long as you make sure substrate is well circulated. If you don’t have adequate circulation then you start having problems with stuff like sulfide etc that nature deals with in anoxic layers of the ecosystem which is always well away from top layers.

This little tank was dry hardscaped, flushed through and drained to bottom glass to get rid of turbidity. Then I laid down fresh damp mulm on both ends of tank 1/4-3/8” thick, took a ketchup squeeze bottle and lightly washed mulm down into top 1” of substrate. Then I let it set 36hr in that high aerobic environment, all the bacteria and fungi in that mulm were supercharged and ready to go by time I slowly filled tank without disturbing mulm layer, planted and turned pump and light on.

The little aquaclear I’m using was specifically placed so output sweeps over top of those tallest rocks/cave, hits bow front glass, creates a down draft and pushes micro currents into subtrate under this 16x8 gravel bed at that low spot at front. 

Within 2 days of planting this the 3 single little sprigs of Rotundifolia on each end had rooted in, grown 1.5” and where starting to send out multiple massive sized side runners across gravel. 

Within 10 days those runners had completely encircled the whole tank, front, back and sides, sending up new stalks every 3/4-1” or so. Red root floaters had tripled mass and Rotala original stalks had reached surface and where now creeping 3-4” along water surface and branching out. Entire surface of tank was covered with plants.

To say mulm is bad for your aquarium is akin to saying compost and mulch is bad for your garden. Nutrients are recycled and made available for your plants again. Only difference is we have to deal with it more diligently in a closed aquarium environment. Why remove nitrogen and other compounds then have to replace them with a man made supplement. Let nature do what it’s been doing for millions of years and just lightly supplement it as needed.

Only thing I plan on doing to this little tank is add surface extractor, slowly remove about 80% of that mulm and start doing 1gal (16%) water changes. Surface scum compounds are one of main ones that can’t be dealt with in oxic layer I’ve set up in substrate and will be dealt with by physical removal and also periodically running carbon and/or purigen in filter box for couple days at a time.


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## ced281 (Jul 6, 2012)

Phil Edwards said:


> I'm with Quagulator on this. Doing a light surface cleaning with each water change with a deep cleaning every time you pull and replant is highly recommended with Eco-Complete. If you're leery of vacuuming around your plants make sure to swish your hand around the groups to get detritus out into the water so it can be removed with the dirty water.


I'm on the same bout as @Phil Edwards and @Quagulator. I think all tanks can benefit from light surface cleaning. It really helps to get rid of detritus which as another member mentioned is a source of organics. Uncontrolled levels of organics eventually lead to algae blooms, etc.



Ddrizzle said:


> I had the same question starting out. What I've found is that having one amano per every 2 or 3 gallons and proper fertilization keeps my substrate very clean.
> 
> Still, I will hover the vacuum an inch or two above my carpet plants and swish it back and forth just to clean up some extra detritus that is laying around. Same for my horizontal rock surfaces. I also swish my taller steam plants around to get gunk off of them.


Don't forget amanos (and other shrimp) poop too and make sludge/fine mulm that'll seep into the substrate. I think, even if the top layer of substrate looks clean, it's important to try and clean up the mulm that's sitting just below the substrate (in the context of running a planted tank with fertilization).


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## mboley (Jan 26, 2018)

Very timely post for me. I just set up a second tank and will transfer half of my existing plants to the new tank next week. My substrate is a mix of Flourite Black, Black sand and Dark and the tank has been set up 14 months. I have never deep vacuumed the substrate but do vacuum off the surface mulm in the places it collects every couple weeks. I do use root tabs. I have good flow so to the naked eye the substrate looks clean in 90% of the tank.

From reading above I need to do a good vacuuming after I pull these plants along with a large water change. Would everyone agree? My question is how deep should I go? I'm not clear on that. I have a substrate depth of 2" to 4" front to back. Tank is high tech, if that matters.

Any input is appreciated. thanks


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

mboley said:


> Very timely post for me. I just set up a second tank and will transfer half of my existing plants to the new tank next week. My substrate is a mix of Flourite Black, Black sand and Dark and the tank has been set up 14 months. I have never deep vacuumed the substrate but do vacuum off the surface mulm in the places it collects every couple weeks. I do use root tabs. I have good flow so to the naked eye the substrate looks clean in 90% of the tank.
> 
> From reading above I need to do a good vacuuming after I pull these plants along with a large water change. Would everyone agree? My question is how deep should I go? I'm not clear on that. I have a substrate depth of 2" to 4" front to back. Tank is high tech, if that matters.
> 
> Any input is appreciated. thanks


Sounds like you’ve got a good handle on it. Did your current practices work well on your existing tank? 

But yea in a higher tech/light situation if you clear out a area do clean up excess you pull up, fork around with planting tongs in maybe top .5-.75” of substrate, lightly vacuum excess. Even fork around bit around plants you are leaving, I even have a turkey baster with small curved piece of 3/8 hose on end I’ll use to lightly “leaf blow” between plants or suck it out if spacing between plants allows it. 

Just don’t bare rape your entire bed all at once if standing system is doing good, use your eyes and your feel for tank to tell you what is right. And yes higher tech tanks need less organics than low-med tech tanks, your playing Mother Nature, rigidly controlling the parameters. 

Totally different tank than that little 7gal low tech mulm bomb I posted above which is doing fantastic with two simple to grow plants, one (Rotala) a creeping substrate maven that loves that overblown mulm layer and red root floaters which actually partially shade the Rotala and slow it down a bit. Floaters get most its co2 from air. 

The pink pearl ramshorn snails that came in with mulm seed are thriving, huge thick pearly pink shells and watermelon pink flesh, their munching down on that red root floater, haven’t touch Rotundifolia and are giving me great gobs of snail poop to add to organic base that this tank is thriving off of.

If your new system isn’t set up I’d highly recommend doing a mulm seed like I did on that little tank. I’ll give all props for doing this to my friend who is a biologist/aquaculturist of highest magnitude. 

As he explained it to me, think of shores of rainforest, ponds etc where organic debris accumulate. The organic matter along shorelines is some supercharged/ninja stuff in a high aerobic environment as far as bacteria and fungus colony goes. Collect some mulm in a brine shrimp net or coffee filter to strain it out, set on paper towel to pull water away. 

Then if your still setting up tank just put good portion of it in a 16oz coke bottle and a strew it about gravel bed and then let let gravel bed set there for around 36hrs damp, partially cover top with plastic, treat it like you were dry starting moss etc. if you do see mold go ahead slowly fill tank. 

If your tank is already filled just grab little nickel or quarter sized pieces of that strained mulm and set them out in a Tupperware dish, lid with couple vent holes in it, same time frame about 36hrs, don’t let them go completely dry or start to mold. Then take one of those damp gelatinous damp mulm coins, set one about every 8” of gravel surface area and sprinkle a little gravel on top to hold it down. They’ll swell back up and settle in about 5hrs, boom, gravel bed super seeded. You’ll easily be 2wks ahead on your cycling. 

It’s really one of most amazing things I’ve ever seen in 35+ yrs of doing aquarium. Even with huge amounts of mulm I put in that little tank, ammonia never showed, nitrite did a little 2day slight spike and then straight to constant 10ppm nitrate and those 2 simple plants took off like a rocket, all I did was half strength dose of thrive and put it on a 12hr ramped light cycle, 4hrs at 45% at morn, 4hrs at 85% for midday and 4hrs at 35% for afternoon cycles. It’s a cheap ass $30 Nicrew rgb led with a $17 even cheaper multistage ramp timer and a Aquaclear20 for filter. It’s performing way beyond my expectations in this price range.

Beigin rant/

I guess my my whole point here is you seem in touch with your tank and it’s needs. A lot of aquarist can’t correlate a simple thing like over here plants look semi-healthy, algae not overblown on right end of tank compared to left end where plants struggle and algae rears it’s ugly head profusely to a simple water circulation/substrate nutrient saturation problem. Quit reading your damn test kits and look at your damn tank and it’s flora and fauna. They will tell you what’s needing improvement. 

Massive “Shock and Awe” water changes at 50%, I’ve never changed more than 25% of my water in any tank I’ve ever owned in 35+yrs except in dire emergencies, and those were never one of my tanks,...salt, reef, freshwater or planted. Always someone else f’ up. 

5-6 hr light cycles, WTH, Mother Nature has never supplied any plant growing on the face of this earth in tropic or sub-tropic latitudes, which are the areas most of the plants used in our aquarium trade come from, with anything less than a 9hr light cycle. Kansas City, my latitude here in KS, shortest day of year 9+hrs. 

With these new multi stage ramp up/adjustable intensity led fixtures if you can’t supply your plants with a light cycle that can replicate lighting that these plants have spent 100,000’s if not millions of years adapting to as norm, by all means continue on with your 5-6hr artic circle light cycle at 125% intensity, your a idiot. 

In my day of 90’s-2000’s you had to to use multiple timers and staging of t8, t5 and power compacts to do a natural daylight cycle. These days it’s grab a remote or load up a web app, ramp up cycle to full intensity, boom, done. Obviously from what I’ve observed here in this forum most people are too lazy and/or think it doesn’t matter, sorry your wrong, you can’t undo millions of years of evolution and preferences a plant or fish prefers at the click of a button. Mimic what Mother Nature has been providing them as closely as you can.

Want a real eye opener, it’s almost 3.5hrs after sunrise before real deep penetration of light into water layer begins, before that time most of light is reflected off water surface and back up into atmosphere, it’s actually dim light before that point. This is what natural daylight transmitted through water looks like dawn to noon, reverse it for noon to sunset cycle. This is lighting/ramp up cycle your plants are evolved to do, pearling only happens in the most optimal water conditions between about 11-1pm. If your worrying that your plants aren’t pearling for 5-6hrs straight you really don’t understand natural lighting cycles.










Don’t even get me started on the Dump And Run Blitzkrieg dosing routines and circulation in tanks of most people I see in this forum having problems with. The #1 problem with those tanks are the the people who are running them.

End Rant/

From posters in this thread @ced281 gets it, he/she gets that it’s about providing a stable natural environment for your organism to thrive in, not rapid environment swings to optimal levels, even if environment your starting at maybe be a bit sub-optimal, slowly heading towards a better setup is better than a rapid correction in either direction. Slow and steady always wins this race.


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## ipkiss (Aug 9, 2011)

Well, I generally agree with the spirit @DaveKS 's rants.... watch your plants, observe your tank, have some patience, and in time, you do get to figure out what it needs. 


but I want to temper it a little. Whenever someone goes too deep into how 'nature' does it, I want to remind him and/or other readers that our tanks, on its best day, is very far from nature.... 

Check out this link as the amano team was scouting for stuff. 

https://www.adana.co.jp/en/aquajournal/field-report-aj276/

Look at where our plants come from. This is what happens when you get nature unmodified, natural lighting, natural mulm buildup. Most of our plants aspire to become emersed. Underwater looks like crap. mulm filled, algae ridden. And that's a good set of pics. Google image search for "aquarium plants in the wild" for some real gnarly stuff. This is not a knock on how good mulm is for the growth of the plants, but in our altered reality of a planted tank scape, it does nothing and is actually most times detrimental to the appearance of the scape. And I'm saying this even as I personally rarely gravel vac because I'm too darn lazy. So yea, uhh, I leave it in there because it's good for the plants. That's totally the reason I'm going with 

I feel some of the faults that you ranted against in the hobby today, @DaveKS is not there because we have devolved or think we can do better or we can change nature, but it's more a result of what aquascapers are trying to achieve. We force plants to stay underwater because their immersed form looks better, we trim them when they achieve the nirvana of unfettered co2 access, we clean away their food source because its unsightly and we cannot tolerate algae. At the heart of my take is .. this is NOT real nature ... but it sure looks beautiful.

https://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/2018/index0f.html

So, I feel the best "answer" for this thread, @Jennifier, is another question that's thrown around on the forum by @Greggz a lot:

*ask yourself, what kind of tank do you want? *


A true(er) to nature tank? Because that's not going to turn heads. You can visit your local pond for that.

Just growing plants? Sure, by all means, keep the mulm.

A somewhat aquascape inspired tank? Well, you're going to have to start compromising and making decisions that are not "true to nature..." 

That, will help you weed out the varied responses you're getting.

PS: @DaveKS
Definitely like the light diagram. Justifies the ramp up/ramp down for algae control. But you see, that's exactly where the 5-6 hour advice comes from, if the tank keeper doesn't have a ramp(able) light, there's not much other practical alternative for quick troubleshooting.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Great post @ipkiss

There is always a going to be a difference in opinion on tank husbandry to those that are aquascapers (everything aesthetic) and those that want to just grow plants. Kinda the difference between ADA and Diane W. 

Our tanks are not set in a natural setting so you can't compare it to nature. As mentioned many of the plants we keep don't even exist in nature the way we keep them. In most cases to have any kind of aesthetic appeal they need our intervention and large water changes and shortened light periods are necessary in some setups. It's that simple. You can't make a blanket statement that you don't need them. You might not need them for a particular setup but it's not a universal fit or dogma you can practice for all tanks. It depends what your trying to do.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

I'm with you @ipkiss. No matter how "natural" we are in creating and keeping our tanks, it's all horticulture, not nature. I enjoy a messy/natural appearing biotope as much (maybe more) than the next person, but even those super "hands off" tanks require human care to keep healthy. The closer we get to European gardens in style; clean, well-ordered plants, in contrived groups, the more effort we have to put into maintaining that garden, just like their terrestrial counterparts require. Weeding, thinning, replanting, fertilizing- the more contrived/far from nature the garden, the more effort is required to resist the entropy of nature. Gardens, aquariums, lawns, homes with small children; they're all the same.

Take home point from an aquatic plant ecologist- Mulm is amazing for starting a tank, and is good to keep in the lowest parts of the substrate, but it needs to be cleaned out of the rest of the tank 99% of the time to meet the aesthetic desires of 90% of plant hobbyists. If you're looking for something that closely approximates the messiness of nature then mulm may just be what you want.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Enjoyed that ADA India page, that one pic of Rotala sp. growing along stream is a exactly type of forest environment I’m trying to setup in that little tank. 

I’m torn now what to do for fish. Common sense tells me to just get a Plakat/wild Betta, hardy, easy to feed and find, bigger and showy. But then the geek in me kicks in and I’m looking at Scarlet Badis and Pygmy FL sunfish as options but harder to feed. Also maybe just a heard of green neons or some smaller Rasboras. 

Green Kubotai Rasboras are actually kind of leading the pack now as a choice. Darker woody environment, slight over hang of floating plants to subdue light a bit and their color should really pop in that tank.


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## Ddrizzle (Jan 30, 2019)

ced281 said:


> Don't forget amanos (and other shrimp) poop too and make sludge/fine mulm that'll seep into the substrate. I think, even if the top layer of substrate looks clean, it's important to try and clean up the mulm that's sitting just below the substrate (in the context of running a planted tank with fertilization).



I guess what I'm saying is that I cannot vac due to my carpet and have not had to for it to be clean.


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

Ddrizzle said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that I cannot vac due to my carpet and have not had to for it to be clean.


What plants do you have that are carpeting? I've had no issues vacuuming Saggiteria spp., Glossostigma, Eliocharis pusillis, and Monte Carlo once they've established.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I surface vac with every water change which is bi-weekly these days as I'm down to 3 fish. The tank is fine; my fish are old. They just turned 11 or 12 last month. My substrate is a mix of Eco-Complete, Flourite and gravel.

Even though I keep a low tech jungle tank, I don't want see food, poop or whatever floating or laying around. It grosses me out to watch fish swimming by the front of a tank and seeing a trail of stuff that acts like a dust cloud. That being said, I used to be one of those that over cleaned which the fish didn't care about, but it didn't make my plants happy. 

I've since come to terms with my tank OCD and now only deep vac in corners where there are no plants or in spots where there is little water circulation, i.e directly under the heater. Yes, I could buy and put a wavemaker or circulation pump in to provide better water movement in such areas, but since nothing is 'broken' or causing problems, I'm not going to fix it. 

All that to say, I agree with Greggz. The cleaner things are, the easier it is to keep things in check.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

DaveKS said:


> With these new multi stage ramp up/adjustable intensity led fixtures if you can’t supply your plants with a light cycle that can replicate lighting that these plants have spent 100,000’s if not millions of years adapting to as norm, by all means continue on with your 5-6hr artic circle light cycle at 125% intensity, your a idiot.


Dave plenty of "idiots" like me use high intensity lighting for a fixed period. Mine is 8 hours, but I know some VERY good plant growers who are at 5 and 6. I can point you in their direction if you would like to see what they have accomplished with that method. 

And I change 70% of my water each week, front load all macros (I think what you meant by Dump And Run Blitzkrieg?), and gravel vac/remove mulm every week. So pretty much the opposite of what you are describing.

But here is the thing......I have seen folks be successful with wildly different methods. Really no need to call those who use other methods "idiots".

Have you considered starting a journal? It's a great way to demonstrate what can be accomplished with various methods, and I would love to see other examples of your tanks. Do you have any larger tanks with a wide variety of pants? Would love to see them if you do, and it might foster some good discussions.


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## Jennifier (Apr 28, 2019)

I really appreciate the in depth conversation that happened here! I also wondered about some of these in depth concepts etc


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I haven't watched a Dennis Wong video in a long time. One of his videos popped up in my recommendations feed and it just so happened that the video that came up was Dennis talking about tank vacuuming. Since he doesn't use gravel as a substrate, he has to do things a bit differently to get all the gunk out.

He combines the use of a turkey baster and a siphon. I use both, but never thought about using the two together like he does. He uses the turkey baster to get the stuff moving, then has the siphon close by so he doesn't have to chase all the mess. It's cool idea and one I'm going to use. :thumbsup:


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Smooch said:


> I haven't watched a Dennis Wong video in a long time. One of his videos popped up in my recommendations feed and it just so happened that the video that came up was Dennis talking about tank vacuuming. Since he doesn't use gravel as a substrate, he has to do things a bit differently to get all the gunk out.


Yeah that's a good video, and shows some of the painstaking detail Dennis goes to create his presentations. His maintenance and plant pruning are impeccable.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Greggz said:


> Dave plenty of "idiots" like me use high intensity lighting for a fixed period. Mine is 8 hours, but I know some VERY good plant growers who are at 5 and 6. I can point you in their direction if you would like to see what they have accomplished with that method.
> 
> And I change 70% of my water each week, front load all macros (I think what you meant by Dump And Run Blitzkrieg?), and gravel vac/remove mulm every week. So pretty much the opposite of what you are describing.
> 
> ...


Yes, it’s was a late night after work 4 beers in rant. I shouldn’t have used that horrible word. I need to say “I’m sorry” to everyone.

As I stated to you before I’ve been out of this world for over 8yrs. It was actually the full time job this “hobby” became doing reef and high tech planted that drove me away. As far as bigger tanks and pics go those tanks were sold and pics lost to a lightning strike/computer back up fail a decade ago. 

I’m actually just wanting a couple small nano sized, simple, easy to care for setups, had the little bow in storage so dug it out. Also picked up a old fluval 2gal+ AIO cube on Craigslist I’m going to resurrect for my office desk. 

But yes, I know how successful you and many others here are. Sheer volume of bows and plants you maintain dictates what you need in your tank. But it also gives me a reminder of why I left the hobby as a whole. Still think you’d be better staging your lighting. :grin2:

Also realized I was crossing theory on using mulm with Phil Edwards , of the AGA. Even when I was out of hobby I still kept up with the AGA contests every year. 

But yea, I should have started a journal on that little tank. I had only just joined here when I started it, didn’t take any pics of actual build up and wasn’t aware of purpose of journal section as a whole. 

Again anybody I offended by my rant, *I’M SORRY*


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

DaveKS said:


> Again anybody I offended by my rant, *I’M SORRY*


No worries, I've had to do it myself a few times. We all "rant" from time to time. I do like the way you announced your "rant", I haven't used that technique yet but will consider it!:grin2:

And I do ramp up lights in a way. I use very low light LED's as "viewing" lights outside of the photo period, and a short period of "moon" lights too. But it's very, very low light. 

I have from time to time ramped up my T5's as well. Start with two bulbs, then four, then six, then four, then two. It's a valid way for folks to find the sweet spot for their tank. A few more/less hours of peak light can certainly have an impact.

For me, the better balance the tank is in, the more light it can handle without problems. I run all six right now for a total of 8 hours. But I don't recommend that for everyone, depends on what each tank needs/can handle.


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

> 5-6 hr light cycles, WTH, Mother Nature has never supplied any plant growing on the face of this earth in tropic or sub-tropic latitudes, which are the areas most of the plants used in our aquarium trade come from, with anything less than a 9hr light cycle. Kansas City, my latitude here in KS, shortest day of year 9+hrs.
> 
> With these new multi stage ramp up/adjustable intensity led fixtures if you can’t supply your plants with a light cycle that can replicate lighting that these plants have spent 100,000’s if not millions of years adapting to as norm, by all means continue on with your 5-6hr artic circle light cycle at 125% intensity, your a idiot.


I am glad I don't fall into this category.
Wow, just made it @ 6.5 hours!!! :grin2::grin2::grin2:


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## Phil Edwards (Jul 18, 2003)

No worries Dave, we all do it at one point or another. It was good to read your posts; there's always something to learn or be reminded of from what other people say here. I got something out of it all.

Regards,
Phil


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Eh, whatever. I might be a idiot for only leaving my tank lights on for 6 hours, but this idiot understands that the sun doesn't sit 17 inches from the planet; unlike the light that sits over my 40 breeder. 

My plants are happy, growing and my tank isn't a algae farm.


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## Greggz (May 19, 2008)

Maryland Guppy said:


> I am glad I don't fall into this category.
> Wow, just made it @ 6.5 hours!!! :grin2::grin2::grin2:


Well MG you were the first one I was going to point him too. 

I wonder what your tanks would do with more light?

Never mind, scratch that......if things are going well, who cares?


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## Maryland Guppy (Dec 6, 2014)

Greggz said:


> Well MG you were the first one I was going to point him too.
> 
> I wonder what your tanks would do with more light?


I understand this, like a moo cow at a hog calling contest!
Chew my cud, sit back and watch, Missouri plates "Show Me"
Please, alfalfa only!

More light would just make more red, like I don't have enough already! :grin2:

Once over 50 how much does one's self care?
Doubt it would be possible that I could be offended in any way.
Especially on the web where everything is true! >


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Update on the mulm bomb science experiment. Meet Finnigan the Betta, a rose gold who’s almost solid pearly white, he’s taken to mulm bomb tank like a pig to a sty. He was so active a feisty in his little cup at petco last Saturday I just had to take him home before he met fate of some of the other ones there.

Anyway tank still purring along at 6.6-6.8 PH, 5kh, 9gh, zero ammonia/nitrites, nitrates around 15ppm. Have only done two 1gal RO water changes in 7wks it’s been up and running. Just dosing with Thrive at 1/2 strength in distilled water daily for top off. No algae of any mention, light coat of green dust on glass and rocks is all there is. Except at initial fill at set up to remove sediment film on glass the glass has never been cleaned in this tank. Didn’t even add surface extractor, film just kind of went away all by itself last weekend.

Rotala rotundifolia and red root floater still growing like gangbusters, just thinned both out again day before this video. Whole handful of each were removed from tank.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

If people want mulm in their tank, it is their decision. The problems start when there is chest-thumping that there has to be mulm in order to have any success with a planted tank.

For a long time I did 50% weekly water changes even though I've never had a heavy bioload in my tank or used EI for dosing. I've always lean dosed as my tank isn't wall to wall with hungry stem plants. What I've discovered is that I don't need to do massive water changes. I do water changes, but how much depends on what I do that week for tank maintenance.

If I'm just doing a surface vac and a general overall cleanup, there is no need to drain half the tank, but if I'm moving plants around and making a mess, I still won't drain half the tank, but instead of only a 5 gallon water change, it may be a 10 gallon water change. As a result of doing this, the tank is more stable overall. My tank is still clean, water parameters are where I like them to be and everybody is happy. 

Would this same routine work for everybody? No, but it works for me and my tank. As much as I hate the expression "There is more than one way to skin a cat", it's true and also applies to planted tanks.


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## Discusluv (Dec 24, 2017)

Lets set aside plants for a moment:
When you add in fish, pay attention to the particular needs of the fish kept, and think about keeping these particular fish healthy in the long-term -mulm accumulation can pose a problem. A bacterial problem. Unfortunately, not all bacteria that accumulates in the aquarium is of the beneficial kind. 
@DaveKS- Now that you have added a Betta, will you be doing more water changes then you have done previously- 2 gallons over 7 weeks?


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

Discusluv said:


> Lets set aside plants for a moment:
> When you add in fish, pay attention to the particular needs of the fish kept, and think about keeping these particular fish healthy in the long-term -mulm accumulation can pose a problem. A bacterial problem. Unfortunately, not all bacteria that accumulates in the aquarium is of the beneficial kind.
> 
> @DaveKS- Now that you have added a Betta, will you be doing more water changes then you have done previously- 2 gallons over 7 weeks?


With one betta not sure, I’ll watch tank for excess algae growth and keep eye on phosphate and nitrate levels, I’m planning another 1gal water change this week and removing a bit more of the mulm when I do it. Betta has taken out probably 90% of my population of ramshorn and can confirm that some betta do eat snails, he’s growing like a weed though and up until last couple days has shown very little interest in dried bloodworm and pellets. As well as pink ramshorn that came with that mulm culture it also had a nice culture of microworm (Panagrellus sp.) and those are almost non-existent now after one week also. I’ve watched him pick nematode from glass, pop down baby ramshorn like appetizers and suck adults right out of their shell.

But I’ve got another tub in basement that I’ve kept in isolation so I can repopulate as needed. Basically I’ve been taking all excess clippings of plants from 7gal, drying them a week and adding to that tub as organic matter for them to feed on. So my bioload in 7gal has shifted from snail poop to betta poop. :grin2: recycling so to speak.

Thought about having my friend run TOC test again but not sure if really necessary. That’s some high dollar water testing.

Bacteria? That’s kind of whole point of this little tank. Way main water current flows into front bowed glass pushes micro current up under this little 16x9 bed. The mix of Flourite/blast sand is tight enough that large quantities of unprocessed mulm cannot get into deep areas. All the breakdown of organics happen in top 1” aerobic environment, no possibility of deep substrate sour/putrid/sulfide pockets and the undesirable fauna that come with them. All the broken down carbon, nitrogen, phosphate etc are released into water column and also pushed back under gravel to CEC binding sites along with health dose of oxygen. Rotala loves it.

Here’s a short video showing front area of bow front. I keep this area forked up with planting tongs so it has good current feed into gravel bed. You can see leaves moving in rather brisk current here (aquaclear 20 at about half power). Can also see huge runners rotala is sending out trying it’s best to encircle the whole tank, easily growing 7-8” along gravel a week as well as sending up vertical shoots all along its length. 

I know most people look at this tank as a ill kept calamity waiting to happen but I can assure you everything from water flow to gravel selection, plant selection and maintenance routines/dosing were all thought out well in advance of even setting hardscape in.






Finnigan the the betta had spot in front of his left eye, at 1st I thought it might be a anchor worm, but was just slight tear in flesh, 3 days in tank completely gone/healed. Most fish when put in favorable water conditions and all stressors removed from environment will quickly heal their coat and become impervious to anything bacterial or fungal. Sure the steady diet of ramshorn and nematodes also helped considerably. In week I’ve had him he’s put on probably close to a 1/4” in size and is building bubble nests under floaters.


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## DaveKS (Apr 2, 2019)

FTS of mulm bomb today. Betta happy as can be, plants doing exceptionally well. Zero water change since last post and light dosing (1/3 strength) Thrive and top off with distilled water. Red root floaters are stunning red. All parameters on water perfect. Mr Betta has learned what feeding ring is for and pink pearl ramshorn are coming back.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Cool looking betta.


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