# Caridinas breeding offspring patterns?



## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Crossing CRS with TBs is going to result in mischlings, which will dilute the gene pool and result in low percentage of TB offspring. Mischling to mischling will further reduce your odds of seeing TB offspring.

A tibee is the result of crossing either taiwan bees or crystals with tiger shrimps. These offspring when crossed back to taiwan bees is what is known as a taitibee. For strengthening a line as well as getting a higher percentage of taiwan bees, breeders will usually breed the tibees back to taiwan bees.

Also doesn't matter whether it's male or female, both parents carry the genes from each bloodline, hence the traits that go along with that. It's going to result in mischlings either way.


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> Crossing CRS with TBs is going to result in mischlings, which will dilute the gene pool and result in low percentage of TB offspring. Mischling to mischling will further reduce your odds of seeing TB offspring.
> 
> A tibee is the result of crossing either taiwan bees or crystals with tiger shrimps. These offspring when crossed back to taiwan bees is what is known as a taitibee. For strengthening a line as well as getting a higher percentage of taiwan bees, breeders will usually breed the tibees back to taiwan bees.
> 
> Also doesn't matter whether it's male or female, both parents carry the genes from each bloodline, hence the traits that go along with that. It's going to result in mischlings either way.


Thanks a lot for the detail explanation. So in short i will somehow get few taiwan bees right? And is it a good idea to add a couple of tiger shrimps to my tank then?


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

There's really no need to purchase tiger shrimp unless you are trying to breed out a particular pattern (taiwan/german pinto, fancy tigers, etc.). If your interest is just to strengthen the TB line and maintain TB patterns, then mischlings will work. It may take some time but it's good way to get thriving TBs without spending a fortune. You could take your female mischlings and breed them back to your TB males and get a decent amount of TBs that are even hardier than your original TB line. I would probably avoid crossing the mischlings back to CRS as this will just keep diluting the TB genes. If you could keep your CRS separated after breeding to TB, that would probably be ideal.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2010)

Ouch


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> There's really no need to purchase tiger shrimp unless you are trying to breed out a particular pattern (taiwan/german pinto, fancy tigers, etc.). If your interest is just to strengthen the TB line and maintain TB patterns, then mischlings will work. It may take some time but it's good way to get thriving TBs without spending a fortune. You could take your female mischlings and breed them back to your TB males and get a decent amount of TBs that are even hardier than your original TB line. I would probably avoid crossing the mischlings back to CRS as this will just keep diluting the TB genes. If you could keep your CRS separated after breeding to TB, that would probably be ideal.


Thanks a lot. Very vital information. I want to have some tibees. Will i get taibees with TANGERINE tigers too? I mean tangerine tiger with a taiwan bee? I know Tangerine are also caridinas but just confirming if they are same like any other tigers?


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

TT can be used to get Tibees. It really just depends on what your end goals are, as far as coloration and pattern is concerned. Many breeders choose the OEBT for their intensity and the orange eyes, of course. Many of the TT I've seen just don't have very defined markings, so I'm not sure how much effect that has on the outcome of future generations. I know that they use TT to breed psuedo tigers and possibly those yellow KKs (not sure about that, though). It could take a lot of time and heavy culling to get good results. It will be much easier to start off with nice looking phenotypes to begin with, which is the case with selective breeding anyways. 

I'm no expert on breeding by any means but I do know how much works goes into breeding out nice looking shrimp that breed somewhat true. It takes years to achieve this. Most taitibee (pinto patterns included) won't breed 100% true anyways, so it's always going to be a surprise with their offspring. I find it much easier to just start with pintos and focus on breeding the patterns I like. I don't keep Tigers or crystals... just TBs and various pintos.

If you just want to experiment and have a tank full of mixed shrimp, feel free to breed whatever you like. This can be just as much fun and way less of a hassle than selective breeding. If the goal is to breed to sell, then that's a different story. I would highly recommend joining a shrimp specific forum and gaining the knowledge about specific bloodlines. Also be prepared to setup a bunch of racks and cull tanks. The rabbit hole is deep.


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> TT can be used to get Tibees. It really just depends on what your end goals are, as far as coloration and pattern is concerned. Many breeders choose the OEBT for their intensity and the orange eyes, of course. Many of the TT I've seen just don't have very defined markings, so I'm not sure how much effect that has on the outcome of future generations. I know that they use TT to breed psuedo tigers and possibly those yellow KKs (not sure about that, though). It could take a lot of time and heavy culling to get good results. It will be much easier to start off with nice looking phenotypes to begin with, which is the case with selective breeding anyways.
> 
> I'm no expert on breeding by any means but I do know how much works goes into breeding out nice looking shrimp that breed somewhat true. It takes years to achieve this. Most taitibee (pinto patterns included) won't breed 100% true anyways, so it's always going to be a surprise with their offspring. I find it much easier to just start with pintos and focus on breeding the patterns I like. I don't keep Tigers or crystals... just TBs and various pintos.
> 
> If you just want to experiment and have a tank full of mixed shrimp, feel free to breed whatever you like. This can be just as much fun and way less of a hassle than selective breeding. If the goal is to breed to sell, then that's a different story. I would highly recommend joining a shrimp specific forum and gaining the knowledge about specific bloodlines. Also be prepared to setup a bunch of racks and cull tanks. The rabbit hole is deep.


Thanks a lot for the very detailed explanation. I learned a lot from you about breeding them. I don't have any specific goals. I just want to have good looking shrimps. I think its better to mix crystal reds and blacks with taiwan bees like red pandas or pintos or bolts. What you say about it?

I dropped the idea of TT now and i did a search and not many good looking shrimps can be expected. Ykk can be breed but its a lot of work to reach to them. I have no specific goals.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

"I think its better to mix crystal reds and blacks with taiwan bees like red pandas or pintos or bolts. What you say about it?" (quote function still broken... sigh)

If it were me, I'd set up at least three tanks. I would keep CRS/CBS in one, TBs in another and use the 3rd tank for the culls from both of these tanks. This way you can have only the nicest purebred phenotypes in two tanks while the culls interbreed in their own tank. They don't have to be large tanks either, as long as you can keep parameters stable and temperature under control. I have several high grade galaxy pinto pairs living in a 2.6 gallon tank, ATM. Since all my tanks are either planted or heavily scaped with lots of mosses, it's nearly impossible to select a specific pair for breeding in such tanks. much easier for me to keep track of them in my nano tanks. Eventually, the offspring will go into a larger tank once population increases. 

I'm not recommending for you to breed in a tank this small, I was just giving an example of what _can_ be done. These little nano tanks are high maintenance for keeping caridina parameters. You could get away with a few 5 gallon tanks easily enough. Of course 10 gallons would be better and 20 gallons is considered "ideal" for stable water parameters. It really just comes down to how much time you have to put into your tanks, funding and available space. We live in a small house, so one little shrimp rack is all I have room for. I work from home, so time I do have. Could always use more $$$ though. lol


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> "I think its better to mix crystal reds and blacks with taiwan bees like red pandas or pintos or bolts. What you say about it?" (quote function still broken... sigh)
> 
> If it were me, I'd set up at least three tanks. I would keep CRS/CBS in one, TBs in another and use the 3rd tank for the culls from both of these tanks. This way you can have only the nicest purebred phenotypes in two tanks while the culls interbreed in their own tank. They don't have to be large tanks either, as long as you can keep parameters stable and temperature under control. I have several high grade galaxy pinto pairs living in a 2.6 gallon tank, ATM. Since all my tanks are either planted or heavily scaped with lots of mosses, it's nearly impossible to select a specific pair for breeding in such tanks. much easier for me to keep track of them in my nano tanks. Eventually, the offspring will go into a larger tank once population increases.
> 
> I'm not recommending for you to breed in a tank this small, I was just giving an example of what _can_ be done. These little nano tanks are high maintenance for keeping caridina parameters. You could get away with a few 5 gallon tanks easily enough. Of course 10 gallons would be better and 20 gallons is considered "ideal" for stable water parameters. It really just comes down to how much time you have to put into your tanks, funding and available space. We live in a small house, so one little shrimp rack is all I have room for. I work from home, so time I do have. Could always use more $$$ though. lol


Thanks for the detailed explanation. I really lost a lot of money on TBs. Few days ago i counted and it will like 1500 USD of Taiwan bees died even after everything was ideal for them. 

However the shrimp breeder told me same what you said that a 5 gallon is too small for Taiwan Bees to thrive because even if water parameters are perfect they will fluctuate more often during the day including temperatures. Shall i just stick to CRS for now till i invest in another tank?


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

That was an expensive lesson to learn. Sorry to hear that. I've lost a couple hundred dollars worth of shrimp when starting out myself. It's almost like it takes more luck than perfect parameters with these shrimps. They're a bit more hardy than they were 10 years ago. I think hybridization has alot to do with that. Most "taiwan bees" will throw a pinto after so many generations, so there's that whole hybrid vigor element going on with these lines. Not that's it's a bad thing unless you are serious about keeping the bloodlines pure. Purebred lines are harder to find and some are just as sensitive as they were many years ago because of selective breeding. Hybrids will usually do better in a majority of tanks. 

5 gallons should be doable, if the tank has matured (at least 2 months) and has plenty of biofilm. Temperature can be problematic in hotter climates. Gradual fluctuations between night/day of about 5° F shouldn't be too bad, as long as your max temp doesn't go over 75° F. Even my 2.6 gallon can stay within this range. No other parameters really change. TDS and pH stays consistent. While it was good advice from your breeder, he/she was most likely covering their end so to speak. If I killed 50 TBs in my 2.6 gallon tank and told the breeder about it, I highly doubt I'd get a refund being as 10 gallons is usually the smallest the majority of shrimp keepers/breeders recommend for taiwan bees. I've actually killed more shrimp in my 10 gallon than I ever did in my nano tanks. Granted, I made a lot of newbie mistakes at the time. That tank wasn't in a very "cool" location of my house. Temps would reach just over 80° F during the hottest part of the day. A bacterial infection was most likely the culprit. Live and learn.

As for your question... If you already have CRS in your tank, then your best candidate for interbreeding would be the OEBT... with red fancy tigers being the end goal. This would be the only other shrimp I would add to a CRS tank. Otherwise, just wait until you get another tank setup and running. But that's just me. At the end of the day, it's your tank(s) and as long as you enjoy the shrimps, that's all that really matters, right?


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> That was an expensive lesson to learn. Sorry to hear that. I've lost a couple hundred dollars worth of shrimp when starting out myself. It's almost like it takes more luck than perfect parameters with these shrimps. They're a bit more hardy than they were 10 years ago. I think hybridization has alot to do with that. Most "taiwan bees" will throw a pinto after so many generations, so there's that whole hybrid vigor element going on with these lines. Not that's it's a bad thing unless you are serious about keeping the bloodlines pure. Purebred lines are harder to find and some are just as sensitive as they were many years ago because of selective breeding. Hybrids will usually do better in a majority of tanks.
> 
> 5 gallons should be doable, if the tank has matured (at least 2 months) and has plenty of biofilm. Temperature can be problematic in hotter climates. Gradual fluctuations between night/day of about 5° F shouldn't be too bad, as long as your max temp doesn't go over 75° F. Even my 2.6 gallon can stay within this range. No other parameters really change. TDS and pH stays consistent. While it was good advice from your breeder, he/she was most likely covering their end so to speak. If I killed 50 TBs in my 2.6 gallon tank and told the breeder about it, I highly doubt I'd get a refund being as 10 gallons is usually the smallest the majority of shrimp keepers/breeders recommend for taiwan bees. I've actually killed more shrimp in my 10 gallon than I ever did in my nano tanks. Granted, I made a lot of newbie mistakes at the time. That tank wasn't in a very "cool" location of my house. Temps would reach just over 80° F during the hottest part of the day. A bacterial infection was most likely the culprit. Live and learn.
> 
> As for your question... If you already have CRS in your tank, then your best candidate for interbreeding would be the OEBT... with red fancy tigers being the end goal. This would be the only other shrimp I would add to a CRS tank. Otherwise, just wait until you get another tank setup and running. But that's just me. At the end of the day, it's your tank(s) and as long as you enjoy the shrimps, that's all that really matters, right? <a href="http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/images/smilie/icon_smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" ></a>


Thanks a lot for the detailed reply. My tank parameters were always consistent. As you mentioned i think they are just very sensitive. I had then breed successfully but offspring died because had some problems in tank and tank remained unattended for few weeks. I wish they didn't die because they would have been the strong ones. But I always wonder how store has this kept successfully? Maybe they don't hold them for long? 

I have a heater set up because its hot as hell where i live so my room is always cold by Air conditioner. I did check without heater and the water temperature drops to 16 or even more because it has no lid and water gets cold. I know shrimps can tolerate cold temperatures but if i need to go out and switch of AC then tank will drop immediately so i use the heater to keep things balanced and keep my AC on even if i leave. 

I am thinking to not toss any other shrimps. I am loving red crystals and plan to establish a good colony of them and then think any further. So few more questions please 

1) What is a OEBT? 

2) And also if in future i do add some Taiwan Bees to tank and they thrive and breed with crystals will i get some Taiwan bees out of them. 

I do have now three Taiwan Bees which are doing fine. Blue bolt, extreme blue bolt and a pinto and also i added three mosura white king kongs which are white and only have a black on there head. If they breed with crystals what i can expect? Roughly i mean. Not guaranteed. Just your opinion.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

Sorry. OEBT= Orange eyed blue tiger. These are commonly used to breed with Taiwan Bees to create Tibees. 

As I explained earlier, you'll get mischlings when breeding crystals with any taiwan bee whether it be blue bolts or king kongs. You can breed the mischlings back to taiwan bees to get some "taiwan bee" phenotypes. They won't be true taiwan bees if they still carry the crystal gene. Therefore, they won't breed true. Eventually you can breed out the crystal traits by backcrossing to taiwan bees repeatedly. There's a good chance that the taiwan bees you have now may carry crystal or pinto genes and just not express them. "Throw back" traits can show up many generations later. Again, this is not a bad thing, as it helps keep the lines strong after so many years worth of selective breeding or linebreeding.

A "pinto" isn't a a taiwan bee either, but rather a "taitibee" with a particular pattern (cloud, galaxy, fishbone, zebra, etc.)


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## ILikeRice (Jul 9, 2017)

Js, perfect pm doesnt mean anything theres more to it.


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## kashif314 (Oct 11, 2017)

madcrafted said:


> Sorry. OEBT= Orange eyed blue tiger. These are commonly used to breed with Taiwan Bees to create Tibees.
> 
> As I explained earlier, you'll get mischlings when breeding crystals with any taiwan bee whether it be blue bolts or king kongs. You can breed the mischlings back to taiwan bees to get some "taiwan bee" phenotypes. They won't be true taiwan bees if they still carry the crystal gene. Therefore, they won't breed true. Eventually you can breed out the crystal traits by backcrossing to taiwan bees repeatedly. There's a good chance that the taiwan bees you have now may carry crystal or pinto genes and just not express them. "Throw back" traits can show up many generations later. Again, this is not a bad thing, as it helps keep the lines strong after so many years worth of selective breeding or linebreeding.
> 
> A "pinto" isn't a a taiwan bee either, but rather a "taitibee" with a particular pattern (cloud, galaxy, fishbone, zebra, etc.)


Thanks a lot. But i think the mischlings look good too. Some interesting patterns i see. My goal is to just not have wild type looking shrimps.



ILikeRice said:


> Js, perfect pm doesnt mean anything theres more to it.


Sorry didn't understand what you saying


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

I seriously doubt you'll see any wild reverts with any of these shrimps due to their complex genetics. Neos are a different story. 

Nothing at all wrong with breeding mischlings. Just have fun with it, you'll see lots of various patterns from both TB and CRS lines. You can always set up a few more tanks later on, should you decide to start selectively breeding.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Generally speaking, all Neocaridina are considered one species. There's a few that are a different species, but otherwise they are basically the same. You get "wild type" because when you mix two colors together that may be recessive in nature, they revert to their original colors.

Caridina on the other hand are a different species. When mixed, you get various hybrids that may or may not look interesting within the first 3-6 generations, but after 4-6 generations you can have some very interesting looking hybrid shrimp. It's all in how the hybrid genes express themselves.


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