# co2 bubbles per second?



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

Hello everyone, 

I recently set up a pressurized CO2 system which is providing co2 to my 35 and 70 gallon tanks. I am curious to know how many bubbles to use as i had DIY set up and it was not as strong as pressurized co2. I am going to attach some of the pictures of my tanks. 

Please advise how much CO2 to use to get a lush growth especially in carpeting plants. 

Thanks


----------



## scapegoat (Jun 3, 2010)

as much as you can until the fish start gasping at the surface, then dial it back


----------



## rick dale (Feb 26, 2014)

*Co2*

It will have a lot to do with your lighting and fert dosing. I am dosing with pps pro and injecting pressurized co2 in a 60 gallon heavy planted tank. Injection is so fast I cannot count the bubbles. Even with it being that fast , my 5 lb bottle lasts for months , so that's really not a problem. Do you have a pH controller? If no , check into one. They really simplify the co2 thing. If your lighting and ferts are sufficient , you will want to shoot for 30 ppm co2 saturation. This is where the pH controller makes that simple.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

rick dale said:


> It will have a lot to do with your lighting and fert dosing. I am dosing with pps pro and injecting pressurized co2 in a 60 gallon heavy planted tank. Injection is so fast I cannot count the bubbles. Even with it being that fast , my 5 lb bottle lasts for months , so that's really not a problem. Do you have a pH controller? If no , check into one. They really simplify the co2 thing. If your lighting and ferts are sufficient , you will want to shoot for 30 ppm co2 saturation. This is where the pH controller makes that simple.


Thanks, I dont have a PH controller but while using 1.5 bubble per second. I noticed a drop in PH from 7.4 to 7.0 or 6.8. I am using dirt as substrate and currently not dosing any fertz as dirt capped with Fluorite should be enough for some time to feed the plants.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

Shoot for a 1.0 - 1.1 drop.

This works too, 


scapegoat said:


> as much as you can until the fish start gasping at the surface, then dial it back


Just do it slowly over the course of a few days when you can be there to watch the livestock


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

burr740 said:


> Shoot for a 1.0 - 1.1 drop.
> 
> This works too,
> 
> ...


100% agree with this answer. It is a very subjective thing... Start off with like 2 bubbles per second and watch the livestock closely. Slowly ramp up over the course of a few days and see what happens.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

klibs said:


> 100% agree with this answer. It is a very subjective thing... Start off with like 2 bubbles per second and watch the livestock closely. Slowly ramp up over the course of a few days and see what happens.


How I will know that the fish is not liking the gas? They always come on top when I go close to the tank.


----------



## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

They will be gasping for breath. Just increase it slowly waiting a day or so after each small increase. And try to do it when you will be there to watch it during the time the gas is on.

A lot of how much gas/how many bubbles per second depends on how well your gas is being dissolved and how much surface agitation is making it leave the water. There is no real way to say for each setup is different. Best way to tell is with a digital PH pen and measure degassed water and gassed. Try to get it to drop 1 full point or so.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

keymastr said:


> Best way to tell is with a digital PH pen and measure degassed water and gassed. Try to get it to drop 1 full point or so.


Whats the digital PH pen and how you measure degassed water? Could you please explain. I have PH kit and monitoring the ph. It is between 6.8 to 7.2

Thanks


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Shary said:


> Whats the digital PH pen and how you measure degassed water? Could you please explain. I have PH kit and monitoring the ph. It is between 6.8 to 7.2
> 
> Thanks


 There's freshwater ph versus hardness chart that you should search for. Assuming you have moderately hard water your ph is tending towards acceptable. If you have soft water then you'll need to raise the hardness. Acidic co2 induced water for a planted tank should be not higher than a ph of 7(neutral), but it's more beneficial to have it a bit lower. Adjust the needle valve in very very small increments, then wait about 4-5 hours, then take another ph reading. The ph will be lower. If it's not too low <6.5 leave it as is and check the next day adjust accordingly. I use a magnifying glass to make adjustments. Always check ph under natural light for accurate color reading. One more thing. Bubble count is specific to your tank so don't listen to what others tell you. When the ph is acceptable then you'll know your bubble count.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

Steve001 said:


> There's freshwater ph versus hardness chart that you should search for. Assuming you have moderately hard water your ph is tending towards acceptable. If you have soft water then you'll need to raise the hardness. Acidic co2 induced water for a planted tank should be not higher than a ph of 7(neutral), but it's more beneficial to have it a bit lower. Adjust the needle valve in very very small increments, then wait about 4-5 hours, then take another ph reading. The ph will be lower. If it's not too low <6.5 leave it as is and check the next day adjust accordingly. I use a magnifying glass to make adjustments. Always check ph under natural light for accurate color reading. One more thing. Bubble count is specific to your tank so don't listen to what others tell you. When the ph is acceptable then you'll know your bubble count.


Thanks, I have dirt in the tanks and have to put crush corals to raise the ph as dirt or peat causes ph to swing a lot. I had too many dead fish in the past and too many issues due to ph swings and had to add crush corals. 

Whats the ideal PH I am looking for the tanks? If I go to 6.5 then what about the fish if they dont like PH bellow 7.0. Will they be ok in a low ph?


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Shary said:


> Thanks, I have dirt in the tanks and have to put crush corals to raise the ph as dirt or peat causes ph to swing a lot. I had too many dead fish in the past and too many issues due to ph swings and had to add crush corals.
> 
> Whats the ideal PH I am looking for the tanks? If I go to 6.5 then what about the fish if they dont like PH bellow 7.0. Will they be ok in a low ph?


 There's no ideal ph, just a range. Co2 induced ph is completely unrelated to ph caused by minerals and won't as far as I know cause distress. I know you are new to this so I will suggest reading articles, even books related to planted tanks and rely less for now on forums for information. 
When I started out my main resource was the book "The Optimum Aquarium" it can still be found. The basic principles are still sound and that ph chart I mentioned can be found within its covers. As you gain more knowledge you'll 
come too realize plants excel a filtering water making *mechanical filters superfluous. Co2 can be injected continually nature does just that. One thing you should do is be consistent with the environmental variables. And always plant heavily, that does a lot to curtail algae.

* If you like overstocking your tank with fauna an external is advisable.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

Steve001 said:


> There's no ideal ph, just a range. Co2 induced ph is completely unrelated to ph caused by minerals and won't as far as I know cause distress. I know you are new to this so I will suggest reading articles, even books related to planted tanks and rely less for now on forums for information.
> When I started out my main resource was the book "The Optimum Aquarium" it can still be found. The basic principles are still sound and that ph chart I mentioned can be found within its covers. As you gain more knowledge you'll
> come too realize plants excel a filtering water making *mechanical filters superfluous. Co2 can be injected continually nature does just that. One thing you should do is be consistent with the environmental variables. And always plant heavily, that does a lot to curtail algae.
> 
> * If you like overstocking your tank with fauna an external is advisable.


Thanks a lot , I really like to read the book. I did some research and found that the book you suggested has outdated concepts which are around anymore. Could you please suggest any book which presently written on the planted tanks. I will try finding the book and go from there. 

Regards,


----------



## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

Shary said:


> Thanks a lot , I really like to read the book. I did some research and found that the book you suggested has outdated concepts which are around anymore. Could you please suggest any book which presently written on the planted tanks. I will try finding the book and go from there.
> 
> Regards,


 I have that book and though its been ages since I've read through it the only thing I recall out dated is the use of undergravel heating cables. The idea behind their use was to set up an extremely slow flow through the substrate. The authors were correct in so far as creating a flow, but entirely wrong that it was necessary to accomplish that with heating cables, plants do that through a process called guttation. That chart I talked of earlier will sometimes show up here and it's from that book. It's still relevant after all these years. As I said previously they got the basic principles right.


----------



## crice8 (Aug 2, 2012)

Just a point: 3bps at 15psi is not the same as 3bps at 45psi. A lot of other factors can have an affect on the co2 in your water aside from PH so i'm not a fan of PH controllers.. You should start at a point that is safe for your fish or other fauna regardless of bps. Then very very slowly increase it. Like a tiny bit more every 3-5 days until you get to a point that your fauna are gasping at the surface, then go back to the last setting. Your lighting,fertilizing, and plant load makes your co2 amount used by your aquarium vary from others. So when people say 3bps there is no standard 3bps. As your plants grow or multiply they are then using more co2.
Its all about patience and gradually increasing your co2 level. 
Good luck(=


----------



## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

crice8 said:


> Just a point: 3bps at 15psi is not the same as 3bps at 45psi. A lot of other factors can have an affect on the co2 in your water aside from PH so i'm not a fan of PH controllers.. You should start at a point that is safe for your fish or other fauna regardless of bps. Then very very slowly increase it. Like a tiny bit more every 3-5 days until you get to a point that your fauna are gasping at the surface, then go back to the last setting. Your lighting,fertilizing, and plant load makes your co2 amount used by your aquarium vary from others. So when people say 3bps there is no standard 3bps. As your plants grow or multiply they are then using more co2.
> Its all about patience and gradually increasing your co2 level.
> Good luck(=


How does psi effect bps? That does not make sense to me.


----------



## r0ck0 (Apr 26, 2015)

Imagine a balloon filled to 15psi and one balloon filled to 45psi. The 45psi balloon will contain more gas. The bubbles are the same, each bubble contains more gas at the higher PSI.


----------



## crice8 (Aug 2, 2012)

jrill said:


> How does psi effect bps? That does not make sense to me.


It affects the amount of co2 being pushed into the tank. Here this is a great quote from someone in the past that I felt explained it quite well.

"This means that if you have a 40 psi system and a 10 psi system running at the same BPS with bubbles of visually the same size, then the first system is actually injecting about 4 times more gas into its tank. Each bubble at 40 psi contains about 4 times more gas than a similarly looking bubble at 10 psi.

For this reason BPS is only meaningful when working pressure is known and fixed. One normally uses BPS within a single system as a way to estimate CO2 supply rate (increase or decrease it). But comparing two different systems (with different working pressures) in terms of BPS is almost always meaningless."

Bump:


r0ck0 said:


> Imagine a balloon filled to 15psi and one balloon filled to 45psi. The 45psi balloon will contain more gas. The bubbles are the same, each bubble contains more gas at the higher PSI.


Thanks Rocko


----------



## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Shary said:


> How I will know that the fish is not liking the gas? They always come on top when I go close to the tank.


lol you'll know

Mine usually just sit on the bottom in a corner and breathe heavily. Others come to the top and breathe heavily


----------



## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

crice8 said:


> It affects the amount of co2 being pushed into the tank. Here this is a great quote from someone in the past that I felt explained it quite well.
> 
> "This means that if you have a 40 psi system and a 10 psi system running at the same BPS with bubbles of visually the same size, then the first system is actually injecting about 4 times more gas into its tank. Each bubble at 40 psi contains about 4 times more gas than a similarly looking bubble at 10 psi.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I certainly don't have the knowledge to disagree further. I did Google the subject though and came across a physics forum that seems to disagree but I am clueless.


----------



## Vancat2 (Jun 23, 2010)

drop checkers are fairly cheap.


----------



## jrill (Nov 20, 2013)

Vancat2 said:


> drop checkers are fairly cheap.


But, they're next to worthless.


----------



## Vancat2 (Jun 23, 2010)

don't agree.


----------



## crice8 (Aug 2, 2012)

jrill said:


> But, they're next to worthless.


I agree with this. I have owned several and sure lime green means a decent co2 concentration. But they also only take into account the co2 concentration at that exact depth in the tank and unless you replace the solution weekly it is not the same reading throughout.


----------



## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

What it boils down to is bps is a reference point for your eyes only. It will show if your system is running consistent from one day to the next, and allow you to gauge the effects of incremental increases/decreases so you can find the sweet spot and stay there. 

For example, let's say you start with 4 bps and it's not enough. Increase to 5, which looks better according to the drop checker/PH tests, or whatever. Maybe the tank could use more? Increase to 6 bps. Fish gasp. Go back to 5 bps, which you now know to be the most you can comfortably inject under the present conditions.

What bps doesnt tell you is how much CO2 is actually being delivered or dissolved in the water column. 3 bps for me wont be the same as 3 for somebody else. Too many other factors involved.

Someone can offer you a ballpark suggestion for what to start with, 2 bps for a 20 gal, 4 for a 40, etc. It can get you in the right neighborhood, but it'll really just be a reference point from which to begin.


----------



## crice8 (Aug 2, 2012)

burr740 said:


> What it boils down to is bps is a reference point for your eyes only, from which you can gauge the effects of incremental increases/decreases.
> 
> For example, let's say you start with 4 bps and it's not enough. Increase to 5, which looks better according to the drop checker/PH tests, or whatever. Maybe the tank could use more? Increase to 6 bps. Fish gasp. Go back to 5 bps, which you now know to be the most you can comfortably inject under the present conditions.
> 
> ...


Very well said. I just hate it when I see people tell someone who is new or inexperience with co2 that 3 bps is what they should set it to and that's that. It varies for everyone. And yours plants can take a much co2 as you can put in the water column without negative affects so i'm a fan of basing your co2 off of the stress of your fauna. Gradually increase it until you are increasing a tiny bit once a week. The fauna will adapt to it if its gradual and you can feed your plants much higher amounts of co2 than you would be able to if you just set it the one time and leave it at that.


----------



## radioman (Oct 29, 2007)

You could get a drop checker. That is what I have ways used to regulate my co2.


----------



## Shary (May 19, 2015)

Steve001 said:


> I have that book and though its been ages since I've read through it the only thing I recall out dated is the use of undergravel heating cables. The idea behind their use was to set up an extremely slow flow through the substrate. The authors were correct in so far as creating a flow, but entirely wrong that it was necessary to accomplish that with heating cables, plants do that through a process called guttation. That chart I talked of earlier will sometimes show up here and it's from that book. It's still relevant after all these years. As I said previously they got the basic principles right.


Kool, I will read that book as it should be still good to cover up basics. 

Thanks for all the advise.

Bump:


radioman said:


> You could get a drop checker. That is what I have ways used to regulate my co2.


I heard that the drop checker takes time to indicate the high or low levels of co2. But I will try getting one.


----------

