# S. Repens issues, leaves turn clear. Pics



## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hi guys, 

I'm having an issues with this plants leaves turning clear/melting and it sometimes kills the whole stem. The tank is a 12 long, planted plus led, EI dosing, Co2. Everything else grows well in this tank. HC, hygro kompakt, AR mini, lindernia India, limnophilia vietnam, and a couple other stem plants I don't have an ID on. 

The repens has been doing this for almost 2 months. It's a mixture of stems from another hobbyists tank and also some tissue cultured, but both have been doing it from the start of adding them, the tc stuff was even added weeks after the others. I recently hacked it all back and left just a couple leaves per stem, but it's still doing this. Any new leaves that grow either get this right away or soon after. I know this plant should be easy, but I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or if I just need to wait more. Below are some pics.


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## Wasserpest (Jun 12, 2003)

While I don't have a solution for you, here is a thread where this or something very similar was discussed as well.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L (Mar 1, 2012)

are you dosing excel? How large are your water changes? Ive experienced similar melt, changed a few things but never concluded the exact cause. I stopped dosing excel, i don't think this was a cause but it was more of a precautionary step, to rule it out. I noticed that melt was usually happening a day or 2 after a large water change, my guess was either a big fluctuation in nutrients from a large water change, or a large temperature change in the water as my r/o water i was refiling the tank with was not heated. Doing smaller water changes and no excel fixed this issue for me. I really do think its large fluctuation in temperature, but i couldn't rule out a nutrient shift either.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Interesting, thanks for the info and link. 

Yes I am dosing excel. I do 50% water changes twice a week, so I'll try to adjust that and see what happens.


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

I have some under med light with excel @ 2x daily dose. It's doing fine. I dont think this plant has a problem w/excel. In my experience it likes a nutrient rich substrate, regardless what you're dosing the water column. Mine is in 100% sand w/Osmocote+. If your substrate is inert, you could try pushing some individual balls of O+ down around each stem. Not saying that's definitely your problem, just sharing my own exp with it.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm yeah I have Eco complete so there's no nutrient there. I will try picking up some osmocote as well to see if that helps.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm starting to see this in one of my other stem plants. Is this possibly nitrogen deficiency? I added the osmocote plus balls all around my tank. Only about a teaspoon total, just pushed them in the substrate with my tweezers. So we will see what happens!


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## Mikeygmzmg (Mar 19, 2015)

I don't think the issue is the excel either. I have a 10 gallon with a full carpet of repens. I use excel twice or three times per week with plenty of fertz, nutrient rich substrate, light, and co2. So long as you have those 5 factors, you wil be fine.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm so right now I'm using the GLA ferts at their recommended levels. 1/8 tsp KNO3, 1/32 KH2PO4, 1/32 K2SO4 and then CSM+B 1/32 tsp along with 1/32 tsp of Magnesium Sulfate. I do the schedule they provide, back and forth macro, micro. Maybe I need to up the dosage. It's fairly well planted, there is no open substrate really.


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## Mikeygmzmg (Mar 19, 2015)

onlycrimson said:


> Hmm so right now I'm using the GLA ferts at their recommended levels. 1/8 tsp KNO3, 1/32 KH2PO4, 1/32 K2SO4 and then CSM+B 1/32 tsp along with 1/32 tsp of Magnesium Sulfate. I do the schedule they provide, back and forth macro, micro. Maybe I need to up the dosage. It's fairly well planted, there is no open substrate really.


Dang how weird, they should be doing great then... I wonder if maybe there is such a thing as "lemon plants" ?? I am pretty new to the hobby so I'm not sure.. Are all of your other plants doing ok?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Yeah everything is growing pretty fast, but I just noticed this in another plant yesterday. So that's why I was thinking maybe not enough ferts. Perhaps other plants were pulling most of the nutrients and the repens couldn't get enough. I have probably 20 stems of it left. It growing new leaves, hope they will last this time with the added osmocote balls. Time will tell.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Now the hygro is doing the same thing. Weird because this is about 2 months after the repens started doing it.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Any ideas appreciated. Basically, has anyone dealt with this before?


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## Rushis (Mar 17, 2015)

I have a similar setup with difference being our substrates, I'm using an off-brand aquasoil. Osmocote pushed in the substrate might be the answer. I've noticed the S.repens tends throw out thick long roots deep into the substrate, which at least to me is an indication that it prefers root feeding.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm thank you for the reply. The hygro is rapidly turning clear and dropping the leaves. Through my googling and forum searching the only thing I can come up with is that it seems this might be a nutrient issues. That the plants don't have enough and are melting back in response to this, maybe in an effort to preserve itself until more favorable conditions. Not sure though, just a theory. Maybe I need to up the ferts


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I made some light stands to raise the lights up. I wonder if I was just driving everything too hard.


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## Fujiija (Feb 24, 2012)

I had Staurogyne repens melt on me twice after I started up my high tech tank with ecocomplete. That was before I realized my nitrates were extremely low (near zero) and everyone here told me I needed to do some serious fertilizing! I now do EI dosing and never had melt again. I do get BBA on the margins of the leaves, so I dose Excel (after turning off the powerhead and filters) straight onto the leaves to kill BBA (it does kill the BBA very well). Also dose hydrogen peroxide the same way. Never had any leaf kill from either. I also now do Osmocote + root tabs under the repens and they seem to like it. My carpet has gotten pretty large in the last year since fixing the fertilizer problem.

I had hygro in the same high tech tank and the leaves always appeared translucent. Never figured out why. I have since transferred it to a low tech tank with a Finnex Planted + light and 1/2 EI dosing - it looks great. Sunset hygro had the same problem, so all my hygros now permanently live in my low tech tank.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Thank you for the reply. I just installed an inline co2 atomizer and I'm hoping his makes the co2 more evenly distributed and may help with some of my issues.


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## Kalyke (Dec 1, 2014)

fertilizer burn. Look it up. You are adding too much fertilizer. 

Sunlight, water, and small amounts of trace elements and minerals grow plants. Planted tank folks tend to worship fertilizer though when it is barely required.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm that's an interesting take and definitely goes against what most say. Though the same amount was added from the start so I would think that if it was burn it would have been noticed right from the start when all the plants were very small. Most of the burns I have found searching show browning and deformation. My leaves keep their shape fine and just go clear. I've found whole leaf bodies floating that are totally clear. I'm curious as to why you think this when we see people with healthy tanks that are very heavily fertilized. 

The changes I've made today were to turn up the co2 a bit. The new diffuser is certainly better than the little glass one I had. My baby tears are getting covered in hair/string algae so that is rather annoying and I hope I don't lose it.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I measured the nitrates tonight and they were between 10 and 20 ppm. Hard to say of course because it's colorized. Should I up my dosing? I guess I could just try and see.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm just gonna keep this thread going as a log basically in case I ever resolve my issues. Then it may be useful to someone. 

So the repens is still having leaves go clear and die. They will grow new leaves and then those will soon after show the issue. I even got a few new tissue culture stems and they are showing the same thing within a few days. The hygro has lost almost all leaves in the same fashion. The stems are growing new leaves but they are having clear spots and not healthy. The limnophilia seems to have no issue. Neither does the AR mini, baby tears or lindernia. 

I'm getting more algaes of different types. I've seen some black beard, more string algae and even some Cyanobacteria. The light now sits about 8 inches off the surface of the aquarium and then it's 9" deep, but only about 7 inches to substrate. Photo period is 6 hours with an 1.5 hour break in between. 

Co2 is running fairly high I think. Water is roughly 7dkh and the drop checker gets to a pale green color. 

I'm going to up the ferts by 50% and see what happens.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Well as of now there has been no change. Decreased lighting, increased co2, increased ferts. All of the same symptoms exist and now I'm getting hair/string algae coming on stronger. So water change tomorrow and testing again. I realize it probably isn't the Eco complete but I'm tempted to order something else like aquasoil and restart this tank.


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## Rushis (Mar 17, 2015)

onlycrimson said:


> Well as of now there has been no change. Decreased lighting, increased co2, increased ferts. All of the same symptoms exist and now I'm getting hair/string algae coming on stronger. So water change tomorrow and testing again. I realize it probably isn't the Eco complete but I'm tempted to order something else like aquasoil and restart this tank.


Have you tried looking at your flow across the tank? Good dispersion of CO2 and nutrients really depends on your flow. I experimented with a few different inlet/outlet configurations (spray bars, surface agitation, no surface agitation, opposite sides of the tank, etc.) and found the best to be what most people recommend, inlet and outlet on the same side with the outlet pushing water down the front of the tank just under the surface. I also try to keep the back side of tank cleared out to encourage laminar flow. This article was particularly insightful.


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## Raymond S. (Dec 29, 2012)

Any Hygro is a potassium hog. It sucked up all there is and then started to get short it's self IMO.
I have 10g tanks(x2) and maybe 25% as much plants in one and 10% in the other
and I dose 1/16 tsp on each of KNO3/K2SO4, but lacking CO2 I only use one dose per week. I also....well here's the list...
KNO3...1/16 tsp...level...
K2SO4...1/16 tsp...level...
KH2PO4...1/64 tsp...rounded, not stacked...
MGSO4...1/32 tsp...level...
CaSO4...1/8 tsp...level...
next day
CSM+B...1/16 tsp...level...
Fe 10%...1/64 tsp...rounded, not stacked...
Couldn't say exactly what the WC is. 10g tanks only have about 8-8.5g in them.
I do 5 1g water jugs. Likely 60% at least, once a week.
Edit:
I might go to one 50% WC per week without changing any of your ferts except that I might add the FE and do 1/16 tsp on the K2SO4. Then after a week and just before the WC I'd check the nitrates. This will need to be done every week for the first three weeks after you change to one WC per week to allow it to level off.
I'd also do the calculator to see how your dosing list matches the recommended levels given when you use the EI for each nutrient on the check box at the bottom
where you select what you are testing for. People on here often recommend more FE than that suggested amount listed on those results. I had a very obvious case of a deficiency that I corrected when I added that 1/64 tsp to my dosing over what the CSM+B has already.
After you write down what that EI results says, then enter what you are dosing in "The results of my dosing" which allows for tsp measurements.
I say write it down because you will need to enter each nutrient and write the list it gives you down so you can compare it when you go to the results of my dosing.
With the 1/8 tsp + the 1/32 tsp you should be close to the recommended on "K" but you will want just over that because of the Hygro.
And I suggested to raise the K2SO4 so you won't raise the nitrates(the NO3 in the KNO3).


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## Xirxes (Aug 18, 2008)

I second the low K. The recommendations on GLA's site are off, you generally will need less NO3(if you feed fish heavily) and much more K2SO4


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Three great responses! I just checked my nitrate again after a week of 50% plus dosing and they were at around 20ppm (right before the WC), maybe lower, hard to say. I'm seeing what i think could be a slight improvement in the Repens and the Hygro is putting out new leaves, but some are not right and have the clear spots, but some are ok. 

The flow in this tank seems to be ok, I have a fluval 206 pushing from one end and a 100gph powerhead from the other making a rolling circle throughout the aquarium.

I only have one dwarf puffer who does not eat much, mostly snails from the tank and one Otto. I was thinking, based on the above, I should dose 3/16 a tsp ( 1.5 of the 1/8 scoop) of KNO3 and 1/8 tsp of K2SO4 and keep the KH2PO4 at 1/32 tsp. I would have the CSM+b at 3/64 tsp (1.5 of the 1/32 scoop). 

Raymond and Xirxes, based off the calculator I definitely needed more K. So we will see what this week brings at the new levels!


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I've been battling this same issue for the last 6 months in a high light aquarium. I used to have a huge carpet and one day it started melting and I couldnt stop it. I have tried almost everything. What I have found is it is CO2 related. I have about 80-90 PAR in my tank for around 6.5 hours, I run a 7dKH till its a strong lime-green and fish are fine. This was the first time I got the star repens to grow correctly in about 6 months. To confirm I went out of town for 3 days, turn the lights down to about 50 PAR and CO2 down. When I got back my DC was a greenish-blue and one of the stems started melting. I then cranked the CO2 and lights back up and saw no effect in the other stems. 

Focus on the CO2 distribution and flow, slowly crank up CO2 to match your light level. 

I used to grow this plant with a lot less CO2 at lower light levels but when its grown in high light it really does need the CO2. 

Good luck!


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm I've been cranking the co2, but yesterday I turned it up a bit more and at the end of the day my puffer couldn't take it so I had to aerate. I'm not 100% it's co2 though, I'm hoping my new dosing schedule shows more good results. We shall see


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Explain this....







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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I have the same issue, can't explain it yet. But working on it! My light has been backed off so I might be getting 50 par or maybe less. Co2 has been about as high as it can go since the tank was started. Lime green to yellow, 7dkh water. We will see what the extra K does...


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## Xirxes (Aug 18, 2008)

Potassium.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I find it interesting most threads I read about this happening do involve eco-complete. But correlation doesn't mean causation. The reason why I think its CO2 if you notice my picture the plant on the right has the elongated leaves. 

It's not potassium because the tissue would show more of a slow pinhole developing with a yellow ring present as well. The leaves melt way to fast to be potassium. 

You only adjusting potassium, I'll focus on CO2 and lets see what happens... I have about 90 PAR. I also have a 6dKH and 7dKH DC on a yellowish green.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

That's what I found from searching as well. Part of the reason nutrient issue seems to make sense. 
I have repens growing in an emersed box in miracle grow soil that grows great. It just sits in my window sill in a sealed box, gets dim light. I open it occasionally for some fresh air.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Interesting, I woke up this morning to the stem on the right showing some melting on lower leaves. This plant has been very weird, I grew it great in my 10 gallon under med-low light. Then had a huge carpet in this tank for the first 3 months. Might just be time for a different plant...


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

If you're dosing EI levels, it's definitely not nutrient issues. Just leave that alone and concentrate on other things. Both CO2 and O2 and good flow are the most often over-looked components. If you're using a drop checker, place it in the most dis-advantage position near the substrate and not midway or at the top part of the tank where CO2 bubbles easily rise to. If your stem plants do very well, but carpet and low plants do not, it is likely because of CO2 distribution issues. Don't just trust the drop checker; depending on how your system is setup, you may need more or less to get results. Tune it up slowly and watch your fish/plant reactions. Stability also matters in the long run; don't keep changing the KH/GH.

These tanks are more dense than most, but require less than EI levels to run: Unless you are anywhere close to this density with more than 100 PAR at substrate, EI will do just fine... More over deficiencies occur when there is growth, when even growth is not present, then it isn't likely your uptake rate is that high. Spend your time focusing on other aspects - flow, pruning off and clearing up dead stuff, good O2 and CO2 levels and distribution, regular parameters so that plants can have time to adapt to stable conditions


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Now I agree 100% these issues are not related to nutrients. Now in my case, I run an inline atomizer which allows tons of mist into the tank making it pretty easy to follow and see where less mist goes. I will say there is plenty of mist on this plant all the time. I run my CO2 24/7 so I know it is consistent. 

O2 is a pretty intriguing idea. I run a spray bar and it stays under the surface of the water. Other than that I have been running my Eheim surface skimmer 24/7 to try to create some disruption. What would give me good O2 without gassing off all the CO2? 

This plant has definitely made its greatest strides with more Co2 I find it weird it decided to start to melt again right at the point it was going to send off side shoots.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Some surface agitation should suffice; the surface skimmer helps also. Other than that perhaps plain old patience and stuff will turn around. S. Repens is slower to react, the other plants should be very happy though


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Glad to hear they are slower to react, I cranked the CO2 up about 2 weeks ago now. The AR mini are now fine and the pogo is growing like mad. Maybe the ludwigia and s.repens are slower to react.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Xiao, all good points taken. I just can't shake that it's a nutrient thing. Your tank is very beautiful. Just for fun, what substrate do you have? 
I feel like I have the co2 pretty high and that I have good flow. All the plants move and I can see the bubbles from my inline atomizer are everywhere in the tank. My drop checker is on the far side from my output. I'm going to add a little surface skimmer because I do get some build up of scum. 
Here's what they look like after the first week of adjusted dosing.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Onlycrimson, I find it interesting that you have scum buildup. What if its actually lack of oxygen? I used to run my surface skimmer all the time then put it on a timer, I also had my spray bar pointed down and had minimal surface agitation to maximize CO2. I noticed a very small amount of cyano algae in the front of the tank. 

Today I turned up the spray bar and now run the surface skimmer 24/7. The drop checker isnt as lime-green but still a light green. I also slightly bumped up the co2. 

I also am going to start leaning out my ferts. I will share notes with you in a few days.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Maybe that poster a bit earlier in the thread was onto something...... maybe over-fertilisation is a problem for this species. There is an active thread about problems arising from CSM+B overdosing somewhere on the forum right now.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

That thread also has the person dosing CSM+B at 2 times EI. Both crimson and I have never had that level. 

I've addressed every fert you can think of over the last few months with no success. Including issues with something getting through my RO filter. The fact that you have string algae shows that you don't have enough Co2. I am very confident this is gas related. I also dont think this plant is too Co2 demanding, Ive grown it well in low light aquariums. So if our Co2 is roughly 50ppm why are we having issues? Which brings us back to oxygen, flow, or just the star repens curse.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

50 ppm is pretty damn high - your night/day pH swings must be huge.

So if you and other are having great success with it in low light low CO2 aquariums, you should really consider that you are pushing it too hard in this case, and it doesn't like it.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I run the Co2 24/7 so there is no "swing" 

I used to have a huge carpet in my current set up. The low light sucess was years ago in a completely different set-up.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Unless you have a pH controller, there will absolutely be a pH swing. What do you think happens when the lights go out, the plants stop using CO2, but the injection rate stays the same? CO2 levels increase, pH drops.

Quite the opposite of the CO2 loss and pH rise that most people get when they switch off the CO2 at night, and smaller in magnitude, but a swing nevertheless.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Right, so it might move from say 6.6 to 6.4 overnight but I never said my pH holds steady. I hardly classify that as a "swing". A swing would like going from 7.3 to 6.6. 

Crimson, how long have you have elevated Co2 levels?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Beefy said:


> Unless you have a pH controller, there will absolutely be a pH swing. What do you think happens when the lights go out, the plants stop using CO2, but the injection rate stays the same? CO2 levels increase, pH drops.
> 
> Quite the opposite of the CO2 loss and pH rise that most people get when they switch off the CO2 at night, and smaller in magnitude, but a swing nevertheless.


Fortunately the swing caused by CO2 is totally harmless for either plants or fish. Many of us run CO2 straight on a timer; meaning that day to night swing can be more than 1 pH, shrimps, fish continue to bred regardless. It's also common in nature, as plants drain all of the CO2 available in the water before noon; you can find charts in the walstad book for this. 

onlycrimson - I'm using dirt and some knockoff aquasoil; but it's mostly dirt underneath. Staurogyne sometimes suffer from the staurogyne melt; for no clear reason. But it does come back from the bare stems in those cases, there are other threads on this. I have to say that neither your plants nor bcarl_10gal's look particularly CO2 deprived - those tend to have smaller, less full leaves, bare lower stems...


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Xiaoz, 

If the plants do not look CO2 deprived what should we address next? Personally I have tried every fert, flow, co2, roottabs, whats left? 

Here is the tank back in August. At one point it was even more full than this.







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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

bcarl_10gal said:


> Xiaoz,
> 
> If the plants do not look CO2 deprived what should we address next? Personally I have tried every fert, flow, co2, roottabs, whats left?
> 
> ...


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Okay, when the tank was like this flow was 100% an issue, I was only using a HOB filter which is gone and replaced with a canister with a spray bar. I would agree CO2 was lower then and distribution stunk, but somehow I got away with it for a while. I find the oxygen comment interesting since back then I ran my surface skimmer 24/7. I eventually put it on a timer several months ago to reduce gassing off. I do not know the exact timing of this change. Another hint to low CO2 in my tank in the past is that the tips of the mermaid weed would progressively get smaller, same went for the Bacopa. I have also noticed currently the purple cabomba and R.Macandra have elongated stems. Which I believe brings us back to oxygen?? 

Crimson, I don't mean to hijack your thread but I believe we are suffering from the same issue(s). I have been frustrated with this for the past 6 months and I think sharing our experiences and comparing notes we can solve this!

Bump: Here is another pic of the tank from March. This was before adding more CO2 and keeping a 4dKH drop checker lime green.







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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

You're spot on on the tips part. Elongation is a bit more complicated. It is also a function of growth rates, and in some cases, light. High CO2, and poor O2 combination can produce fat plants with good color, but also with elongated internodes. Purple cambomba is quite light demanding and R. Macrandra is sensitive to high KH/temps/ferts and flux so they aren't good for analysis as poor form can occur for a wider range of reasons.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

One last observation I want to add to this and something that I think Crimson said as well. When I tried adding new stems they melted in the same manner within about 3 days. Quite frankly this is way to fast to point towards a nutrient deficiency. I am getting a few new stems this week so it will be interesting to see how they react to the higher CO2/O2 environment.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Well good conversation going here! At this point I'm dosing plenty, I feel like I have good flow and co2 dispersion, and enough light. I'm going to work on getting a surface skimmer and slowly creeping up the co2. Bcarl, it's been pretty high for weeks. As high as I can go before the fish starts being distressed. I don't run it 24/7, just from an hour before lights on and then through the lights until .5 hours before they are off. Maybe I should start it 2 hours before as a test. 
I guess this plant just needs some time. We'll figure it out or it will just figure itself out!


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

LOL after 6 months of this i've lost hope on the "sort itself out" hope.... 

When you started cranking up your CO2 how did the star repens react? Did you previously have success with it? Can you provide more details about for filtration setup and maybe a FTS? 

On a side note, my s.repens have gone into melt mode yet again...


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Mine grew well for about a week or two before they started showing this condition. No change in the plant when the co2 was upped. I'll get a shot tonight. It has a Fluval 206 ( just mechanical and bio media), output on the left side and a 100gph power head on the right side making a big swirl.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

bcarl_10gal said:


> LOL after 6 months of this i've lost hope on the "sort itself out" hope....
> 
> When you started cranking up your CO2 how did the star repens react? Did you previously have success with it? Can you provide more details about for filtration setup and maybe a FTS?
> 
> On a side note, my s.repens have gone into melt mode yet again...


Yeah melting within days will not come from nutrient issues, more likely plant is source from waters with very different parameters

Where do you get your plants from? 

Have you tested your water KH ? You seem to have limestone in the tank; which will raise the water KH gradually (or quite quickly in some cases). Is there a large KH difference between your tap water and tank water? 

Do you both use eco-complete ?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Yes we are both Eco Complete users. Personally my KH is about 7 in the tank , not sure on tap but it's probably close to that. Bcarl I think is similar?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I reconstitute RO water. My KH is about 4-5dKH.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Crimson can you snap a picture when you get a second?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Here it is. The nasty hair algae continues, bust honestly it's getting a little better.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Its hard to tell from the picture. Is the filter intake on the left side? Where is the return? Also is that the powerhead on the righthand side? What is the carpeting plant on the right side and how is their health?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Yeah the intake is in the bottom left, output is above it and pushes towards the other side. Not what I wanted but it's what I can do, better than a HOB. Yes that's the power head on the right. The carpeting plant is dwarf baby tears. They are still growing great, but the hair algae just grows in them and is very hard to get out. That's really the only place I have the hair algae.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

In regards to the algae, thats due to low Co2. Good luck with the green hair algae, its the worst.

I just spent some time re-reading the different posts from this thread to draw some inferences/summary on our issue thus far. So if s.repens is a low CO2 demanding/growing plant and we are cranking our CO2 to about 60-70ppm there should be no CO2 deficiencies. Since we both use inline atomizers we can physically see the CO2 getting distributed throughout the tank and other low growing plants are healthy. When it comes to the substrate, we both use eco-complete and have tried O+ root tabs. I want to rule the substrate out because plenty of people grow carpets with this plant in Eco at similar light levels with no issues. I am also inclined to rule out ferts since we both are using E.I. (or in my case a little less) and therefore nutrients are non-limiting (and combine with the melt of new plants after 3 days). 

I still find the oxygen thing interesting, since pointing my spray bar up and running my surface skimmer 24/7 it is much harder to hit a yellow DC. I think we should both try to manipulate unique independently the potential remaining variable until one of us finds the solution.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Xiaozhuang said:


> Fortunately the swing caused by CO2 is totally harmless for either plants or fish


You say that, but the S repens is melting.

Look, I'm not saying for sure that CO2 swings are the issue, it would be a silly correlation/causation mistake to make. But I think you are all looking at this the wrong way...... there is this ridiculous mindset that if a little bit of something is good then a lot must be better, all problems can be explained by deficiencies, and any fault in the system can be solved by just throwing more stuff into the mix.

EI dosing works on this principle but has been carefully crafted up to a sensible maximum. However, grossly overdosing something can be just as bad, or potentially far, worse than a deficiency. So perhaps people should entertain the possibility that this plant doesn't like 60-70 ppm CO2, or stupid-high nitrates, or double dosing CSM+B, etc. etc.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Beefy said:


> You say that, but the S repens is melting.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying for sure that CO2 swings are the issue, it would be a silly correlation/causation mistake to make. But I think you are all looking at this the wrong way...... there is this ridiculous mindset that if a little bit of something is good then a lot must be better, all problems can be explained by deficiencies, and any fault in the system can be solved by just throwing more stuff into the mix.
> 
> EI dosing works on this principle but has been carefully crafted up to a sensible maximum. However, grossly overdosing something can be just as bad, or potentially far, worse than a deficiency. So perhaps people should entertain the possibility that this plant doesn't like 60-70 ppm CO2, or stupid-high nitrates, or double dosing CSM+B, etc. etc.


So if the plant doesn't like high CO2 why did I initially get an explosion of new growth when turning up the CO2? I never double dosed CSM+B and don't have stupid high nitrates. We have both stated that we are using EI dosing, mine is actually a little less, I make liquid ferts and the concentrations are slightly less than EI. I still perform the 50% weekly WC. I have tried no CSM+B and used to dose less nitrate. Regardless I don't think either of us tried anything crazy with ferts to cause this or compensate for it. 

Lets use the whole tank condition and the actual plant conditions and think 1. what can be wrong in the tank, and then 2. what variables can we try to address the conditions we see? We both experience melt, loss of color, in the middle/lower leaves, it doesn't effect the new growth. Before my last melt I saw elongated leaves as well. The melt usually happens in various parts of the leave and it happens very quickly, almost within 24 hours.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

bcarl_10gal said:


> So if the plant doesn't like high CO2 why did I initially get an explosion of new growth when turning up the CO2?


 You will be careful to note that I am not claiming the plant doesn't like high CO2 - I am criticising the thought process by which you are ruling out high CO2 or other fertilisers as a problem. In any case, consider a situation of initial CO2 demand, followed by saturation, followed by increasing toxicity.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I don't think ether of us has anything at "stupid high" levels. I'm well within safe levels of ferts and co2 and I think bcarl is as well. I'm gonna keep going as I have been because I'm starting to see better growth. I will add the surface skimmer that should be on its way from ups.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

onlycrimson said:


> I don't think ether of us has anything at "stupid high" levels. I'm well within safe levels of ferts and co2 and I think bcarl is as well.





bcarl_10gal said:


> So if s.repens is a low CO2 demanding/growing plant and we are cranking our CO2 to about 60-70ppm.....


If bcarl's CO2 really does get up as high as 70 ppm, I think you would agree that is pretty damn high.


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Firstly, hobbyist's measurements are always approximations; the machine needed to get an accurate CO2 reading costs upwards of $1000 - You can google Tom barr's posts on this.

Secondly, many people have tested using very high CO2 levels - and negative plant reaction in such cases where nutrient dosing has been up-kept is virtually zero. Carbon is the limiting factor in most tanks - the lack of it causes far more problems. It's excess is usually only related to one aquarium problem; fish & other livestock death.

The main problem with analysis at the hobbyist level is tunnel vision - caused by trying to relate plant reaction to variables that there are test kits for. I.e. Everything is caused by lack of or toxicity of nutrients. Thousands of tanks, run on EI and high CO2, but the differences in growth and plant quality is often day and night. Some people get algae, some don't as well. There are many other factors at play than just nutrients.

CO2 and flow accounts for a very large dark area, because they can't be measured as precisely. If one uses oddly shaped aquascapes sometimes flow/lighting is an issue. Substrates can have a large impact, but people generally ignore it because it's hard to analyse - so they go with the idea that someone else has well-grown tanks with a similar substrate so it should work for me; one wonders why we don't apply this concept to EI as well. 

Our pruning & planting techniques matter also; but this is hardly discussed. KH flux does have an impact on plants, unlike pH flux - that's why I pointed out limestone in bcarl_10gal 's tank. But it doesn't matter if you do water changes regularly because it evens out the effect of rising KH. 

I haven't offered any clear answers, but at least by ruling out stuff that has been tested over the years (even scientifically if you read the papers on barr report), We can focus on other variables rather than get trapped in the tunnel vision of the same few variables; which I'm sure you guys have changed around plenty to no avail.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

The positive reaction from upping the CO2 in my tank cannot be ignored. It has been 20 days since the CO2 adjustment. I've seen my AR mini un stunt and actually propagate. Also my purple cabomba is growing like a weed. The s.repens in the pictures I've posted above was the best its looked in the past 6 months. The question is why on earth did it melt again..... That my friends is the $1,000,000 question! 

I am getting some new S.repen stems this week. I am very curious to see how they will react to my tank.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Here's another picture of the melt. This is on a "newer" leaf.


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

Some people just can't grow some plants. I've read about people with gorgeous high tech tanks that can't grow java fern to save their life. 

Why are the roots exposed in that last pic? 

What does your pH sit at the height of the cycle?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I would agree that we can't grow ALL plants, but i used to have a thick carpet FULL of this stuff and had more plants than I knew what to do with. 

The roots are not "exposed" there were leaves there before they melted off and the plant was sending out roots because there were some side shoots starting, then it melted... again...

The pH is about 6.5, water without CO2 is around 7.4.


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## Dead2fall (Jun 4, 2014)

bcarl_10gal said:


> I would agree that we can't grow ALL plants, but i used to have a thick carpet FULL of this stuff and had more plants than I knew what to do with.
> 
> The roots are not "exposed" there were leaves there before they melted off and the plant was sending out roots because there were some side shoots starting, then it melted... again...
> 
> The pH is about 6.5, water without CO2 is around 7.4.


Ah gotcha, so it systematically died back to what you have now. Gotcha on the aerial roots too. Sometimes it's easier to look at the simple things, don't be offended. 
Check this out:








Maybe you have a "too much of one thing effecting uptake of another" type situation going on?


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## Steve001 (Feb 26, 2011)

onlycrimson said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm having an issues with this plants leaves turning clear/melting and it sometimes kills the whole stem. The tank is a 12 long, planted plus led, EI dosing, Co2. Everything else grows well in this tank. HC, hygro kompakt, AR mini, lindernia India, limnophilia vietnam, and a couple other stem plants I don't have an ID on.
> 
> The repens has been doing this for almost 2 months. It's a mixture of stems from another hobbyists tank and also some tissue cultured, but both have been doing it from the start of adding them, the tc stuff was even added weeks after the others. I recently hacked it all back and left just a couple leaves per stem, but it's still doing this. Any new leaves that grow either get this right away or soon after. I know this plant should be easy, but I'm not sure if I'm just missing something or if I just need to wait more. Below are some pics.


A chart for you.
View attachment 451050
View attachment 451058

View attachment 451074


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Dead2fall said:


> Ah gotcha, so it systematically died back to what you have now. Gotcha on the aerial roots too. Sometimes it's easier to look at the simple things, don't be offended.
> Check this out:
> 
> 
> ...


The only issue with this in my case is the plants started melting while I was still doing a PPS-Pro dosing style. If I look at how I used to dose the tank when this plant did well it was all over the place. There was something condition wise in my tank to trigger this and I also think there is a link between our two tanks. My daily doses when the plant did well(per day): K-9.34ppm, P-0.88ppm, N-3.74ppm, Fe-0.51ppm. 

Now you guys will say, just go back to dosing the way you had it, well the melt started while dosing this way, adjusting the ferts has not worked. I am considering going back to a PPS-pro style method because at this point why not. Maybe we are both just over fertilizing.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Dead2fall said:


> Why are the roots exposed in that last pic?


S Repens is actually a stem plant, so exposed roots aren't that big a deal.



bcarl_10gal said:


> I am considering going back to a PPS-pro style method because at this point why not. Maybe we are both just over fertilizing.


Going from overwhelming excess to very lean probably isn't necessary. If it were me, I would split the difference to half-dosed EI, dial back to CO2 to an easy 20-30 ppm, and ease back a touch on the lights.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

With 20-30 ppm of CO2 I had stunted growth and plants were still melting. Under higher CO2 I have no stunting of other plants, with ideal growth and the plants still melt but overall tank health is better. Too much CO2 is just not the answer, its also been documented like Dennis said.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Honestly, if your other plants are melting when your CO2 is genuinely sitting at 20-30 ppm, then something else is severely wrong. I don't know what else to say.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

By "plants" I meant the s.repens. All other plants are growing fine, sorry for the confusion.


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## Mikeygmzmg (Mar 19, 2015)

You need to add some root tabs under these babies and make sure your using some fertz too. I'm not an expert but I think they look nutrient deprived. Also, when did you put them in?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I've tried putting Osmocote underneath them and have not seen any improvement. 

This is a stem of my Bylxa that sits close to the stars. I find it interesting that it is showing a loss of color up the leaf blades. Don't know if that gives us any clues but I figured it might be relevant.

Nitrates are about 30ppm Phosphate around 1ppm.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

What I'd like to see is what happens when you take some rich black soil for house plants (which definitely has all the nutrients in it), add it to a plastic container, add some of your substrate on top to cap it and keep the soil in place, then plant a few species in it, set it somewhere in your tank and see how they grow over a few weeks.

If this is a nutrient deficiency then only the plants in the container will grow perfectly and show no damage.

If it is a toxicity then they will keep growing badly along with all your other plants.

Either way, you will have a better idea of the next set of steps you should take.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Zapins said:


> What I'd like to see is what happens when you take some rich black soil for house plants (which definitely has all the nutrients in it), add it to a plastic container, add some of your substrate on top to cap it and keep the soil in place, then plant a few species in it, set it somewhere in your tank and see how they grow over a few weeks.
> 
> If this is a nutrient deficiency then only the plants in the container will grow perfectly and show no damage.
> 
> ...



I really like this idea, if the plant grows well we can also say that the lack of nutrients could be the issue. Will any black potting soil work? Also when we submerge the container the cap will prevent the soil from floating and releasing contaminants? 

Crimson do you want to try this? or should we both give it a go?


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes it should eliminate or greatly reduce any kind of soil or dust that escapes the container. It is a nice way to grow plants especially if you don't want to redo your entire tank with soil.

Most soil types will work. I've found the best suited ones are the ones that are not purely made from organics like compost and chicken waste (aka, miracle grow is not the best suited for aquatic plants). I personally like Scott's Premium topsoil but this may be a regional brand. Its the kind of soil you get for $2 to $3 for a 50 pound bag at home depot.

I forgot to mention that 1.5 inches deep is about where you want to have the soil, with a 1 to 1.5 inch cap.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

So you would not recommend miracle grow potting mix (I have a bag in the garage)? If not I can find some of the scotts stuff tomorrow.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I can try to wrangle a way. My tank is tiny, but I can find a really small container. Fwiw I have stems of the s repens from my tank in miracle grow in my emersed box (which only gets indirect natural light) and it grows just fine. 
In the tank today my surface skimmer came in so I added it. Made quite a difference so far by pulling any build up off the surface. 
Here's a pic of my emersed box.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

I don't recommend miracle grow in general for underwater use. Emersed it is not quite as bad. The issue is it has a lot of ammonia in it which can burn sensitive aquatic plant leaves. It might not make a big difference using a small container of the stuff compared with carpeting your entire tank like some people do in a soil tank.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

This may be a silly question but after looking at the Scotts Premium Topsoil it says it does not contain any fertilizers or "plant food"? Isn't this defeating the purpose? 

This is what you are talking about correct?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_290602-446-71130758_0__?productId=3030807


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Yes that is the stuff. 

There are nutrients in the soil there just aren't any added manufactured nutrients and chemicals. The soil you'd find outside has plenty of nutrients in it without having added fertilizers 

The nice thing about non-fertilizer laden soils is that they tend to have more mixed clay in them and organic fibers that hold onto nutrients long term and release them slowly. High nutrient soils like miracle grow are very volatile and lose a huge portion of their nutrients up front and become depleted quite quickly. This is why they often burn aquatic plants with all the ammonia that is released.

That said, my argument is more geared towards why to choose a non-miracle grow soil for a full soil tank. A small amount of miracle grow in a container likely won't cause the same issues, but if you have easy access to another non-supplemented soil why not try that out to be safe?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

So I picked up the scotts premium top soil and got my experiment set up. In one of the containers I also placed 3 beads of Osmocote + just to see if it made a difference. I also put a couple different plants to see how they reacted. I put a stem of AR mini in each, 2 stems of star repens some new some that had been melting. Also put a new stem of downoi I received since I have never been able to grow it. If I would have done anything different I probably would have but a little more dirt. Its about 1.5 inches of eco and .5 inches of dirt.







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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Looks good. Now we wait and see. You can also plant a few more stems in there for the test.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I'll try to get mine together in the next day or so. But that looks pretty good.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Not good news on my end, the melting is continuing. CO2 has stayed elevated, all other plants are looking good. The new stems I added have not melted yet. Water params: pH 6.4, KH: 5 GH: 6 Nitrate: 30 Phos: 2









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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm maybe give it more time. I haven't set up any dirt yet, but my repens are growing the best they have since I first got them. Still some leaves with clear, but looking better.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

What have you been trying again?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Potassium increase, surface skimmer, one weekly water change, less light, more co2 and that's about it really. I honestly think the tank needed more potassium.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

What does your Potassium dosing look like in terms of ppm.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I'm at about 19ppm. Npk ratio is about 6-1-6


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Any updates crimson? The star repens is melting everywhere except the pots, the downoi is still alive as well. I am getting a sample of aquasoil and duplicate the experiment in there as well.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

Pics of the plants in the pots?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Here are some pics. I am getting a small sample of Aqua Soil tomorrow and placing some stems in there to see what happens.







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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

It does look like the ones in the soil are doing better, but I think we should wait another week or so before saying it is definitely helping.

At least we are making progress now.

After a week or so more what you will need to do is do your normal schedule but add more of one nutrient at a time to the tank and give it about 2 weeks until you find the right one. I can write up a list of the most likely nutrients you should try first later on.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I have been doing my normal schedule, all I have done is holding back a little on my nitrates.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Hi, i have a similar problem. I will wait for your conclusion. Im dosing EI + co2.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

In your case this looks like a CO2 deficiency, there are two reasons the repens melts. One if for sure CO2. I believe its CO2 in your case because the whole leaf is effected. Also there is smaller growth from the AR (mini?). And finally yours is CO2 because of the BBA in the upper left of the star repens picture.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Ok it can be but the alternanthera its not...also i have 1 stem on the surfase that some leaves are half out of the water(they can have full co2) cand the new leaves are acting like the same....


Enviado do meu iPad usando o Tapatalk


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Mine have been doing much better actually. Still some areas with a little melt on lower leaves but they are growing upward. I will get a pic when I get home later tonight. My guy is still saying nutrient right now,namely K.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Take a pic. 
My algernantheras(reinekii and mini) they are growing the new leaves perfect during some days but then i dont lnow what happen buy they just stay glassy, discollored, twisted, curled. Just like this... Its really strange.. Its like this for 2 years... Already turned on one more t5, doubled the macros, the micros, calcium, magnesium.... I dont know..... I really dont know... In this moment im doubling the micros again and the i eill dose calcium all days a little bit.
I raised the kh to 4 with sodium bicarbonate but nothing..... My gh is 4/5. Because of the ca and mg that i dose.....


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

@Onlycrimson- I dosed 1/2 tsp K2SO4 during my water change and then the equivalent of 6 ppm 3 times this week and I still got nothing....


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Here's what mine look like.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

The new leaves are fine, right? The old are twisted?


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Not quite twisted, but they do get algae covered and start fading and then die or turn clear, but less of that now.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Got a cup set up with some Aquasoil.... This should be pretty telling.







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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

They are getting really nice, right?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I will let you know, been in there for all of an hour...


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Ah good work. I've failed to set mine up but I've been considering a change to aquasoil at some point, probably not until fall cause summer is just so busy. I'm also hoping that my tank "matures" more or stabilizes more.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

So big plot twist in my tank... Back when the melt started 2 things changed, I changed the RO filters and I also started a new bag of K2So4. I have been able to rule out the RO filter. When I got the new bag of K2So4 i always thought the consistency was different from the last bag. When Crimson started having success with adding potassium I started adding a 1/2 TSP at water changes but noticed my nitrates were unusually high causing me to adjust the nitrate dosing. I have a bottle of a K2So4 solution mixed up, so on a whim i decided to test the K2So4 solution for nitrate. Low and behold The nitrates where off the scale in that solution. To confirm I mixed RO/DI water and the proper amount of K2So4 as if it was KNO3 to see if I could get 40ppm. And what do you know..... It was exactly 40ppm. GLA is sending me a new bag of K2So4 and I am sending my current bag back for testing. So yes it really might just be potassium...


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Lol! Well kno3 still adds a decent amount of potassium and shouldn't have hurt anything. But yeah I can't deny that my plants have been looking better. It's just this damn algae that annoys me most.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

If you did genuinely have 40 ppm nitrate, then you would have had about 25 ppm potassium. I would think that is more than high enough to avoid any potassium deficiency.

I'd be interested to see some tests on nitrate toxicity......


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

I'm taging along here, very interesting. I have very similar problems in my tank. I use Aqua soil though, high co2 (60-70) ppm, only 60 par lights. The usual potassium hogs (Hygrophilas, Microsorum. And my S.repens, though they aren't considered potassium hogs, right?) are getting clear leaves, even though i'm dosing heavy on the K2SO4. After reading bcarl's post, I have to do some testing..

I started with the usual EI dosing, then when problems started appearing upped it to 2xEI, as well as the Co2 to the point I gassed some shrimp. Seemed to help for a little while, then it got worse and other symptoms appeared as well. Leading me to believe it lead to toxicity instead. So I'm back to regular EI. But if my K2SO4 also is KNO3 that would explain it. Since K is one of the nutrients Aqua soil is lacking if i'm not mistaking. I sure can't tell a physical difference between the KNO3 and K2SO4 I have. I have also been fiddling with surface agitation, and as of now I have a koralia 240 and the sparybar on my eheim 2076 pointing towards the surface. And have a airstone 24/7. I have too been contemplating getting a surface skimmer (Ideally you want a wet/dry filter for O2 saturation), after I have been reading a lot up on the importance of O2 on Barr Report, seem to be much more info on O2 there. Though my drop testers are showing good levels of O2, but I don't trust these to much.

Edit: Beefy, Why do you seem to always want to "disprove" the methods on this forum? So many threads you go against what most people on here believe. Stating different things. Never proving anything, you don't even have a journal or a picture of your tank anywhere I can find, or started a thread for that matter. There a plenty of forums out there with the same mindset as you...Regarding nutrients, co2 and ph swings and what not you disprove of. I don't mean to offend I can be a little direct (and stubborn until dis-proven:icon_redf) sometimes I'll admit that, but sometimes it almost seems like your trolling to me the way you come across.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Malakian said:


> Edit: Beefy, Why do you seem to always want to "disprove" the methods on this forum? So many threads you go against what most people on here believe. Stating different things. Never proving anything, you don't even have a journal or a picture of your tank anywhere I can find, or started thread for that matter. There a plenty of forums out there with the same mindset as you...Regarding nutrients, co2 and ph swings and what not you disprove of. I don't mean to offend, but sometimes it almost seems like trolling to me.


If nobody bothered to challenge dogma nothing would ever be learned, and consensus belief alone does not make something correct if it hasn't been properly tested. So where is the harm in playing the contrarian, and just asking the question? Why is it so hard to believe that taking EI to the nth degree and over-fertilising may have negative consequences?


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

So you are saying the whole EI approach haven't been challenged in multiple ways? Probably the most tested, as it seems to be the hardest fertilizer regime for people to swallow. And many seem to want to prove that excess fertilizers (as a sole reason) leads to algae and/or harm plants, which is just not true. If you follow EI, and don't go way above recommended dosing.

off-topic: And by the way, in many responses, maybe not particularly this thread, you don't just ask questions. You blatantly spew out statements as they where absolute facts with out any source, or at least have some picture of your tank "proving" your methods/statements. That is what really "grinds my gears" :tongue:


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I agree you have to come at everything from all angles. You still may learn nothing, but it is fun [emoji108]🏻


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Malakian said:


> So you are saying the whole EI approach haven't been challenged in multiple ways? Probably the most tested, as it seems to be the hardest fertilizer regime for people to swallow. And many seem to want to prove that excess fertilizers (as a sole reason) leads to algae and/or harm plants, which is just not true. If you follow EI, and don't go way above recommended dosing.


Indeed. So we have:
EI recommended nitrate is 20-30 ppm, in this case 40.
EI recommended CO2 is 25-35 ppm, in this case 50-70.
EI recommended potassium is 10-30 ppm, in this case 25 (based on the KNO3 dosing, but somehow still a potential deficiency).

All of the macro nutrients are at the top or above the recommendations for EI. No mention of micros. So at this point I would like to direct you to one of Tom's posts here: http://www.barrreport.com/forum/bar...ng-or-no-need-for-test-kits?p=33379#post33379

Everything becomes toxic at some point. I don't know where the toxicity point for S repens is for individual or combined nutrients, but throwing more nutrients at the problem clearly isn't the answer. So I will ask again, why is it so hard to believe that taking EI to the nth degree and over-fertilising may have negative consequences?


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## Xiaozhuang (Feb 15, 2012)

Beefy said:


> So I will ask again, why is it so hard to believe that taking EI to the nth degree and over-fertilising may have negative consequences?


This scenario can be described as "If you only tool you have is a hammer, everything becomes a nail" Nutrients are easy to tweak and test for, so people flock to them to explain problems. Thousands of tanks run on EI, but not everyone gets great growth - if not these forums wouldn't be filled (just use EI and be done with it). Difficult things to change or optimize are CO2/flow, substrate, lights, long term stability, aquarists habits etc


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Well I looked my S. Repens over and no leaves are showing any of the initial symptom at this point. So something happened and they are doing well. Could be a combination of all I've done or none. But I suspect I've played some role.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Most of the people that i speak they say that that have like 60ppm of nitrates, 5ppm of phosphates, etcetc... And they say that is not a problem, that the problem is bigger if i reduce the nutrients...
I in this moment i reduced the nitrates to test(because i already duplicate everything..) but is just a test....
I dont know ehat to do more too....
How are your plants in the new substrate?


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## Malakian (Aug 23, 2014)

Beefy said:


> Indeed. So we have:
> EI recommended nitrate is 20-30 ppm, in this case 40.
> EI recommended CO2 is 25-35 ppm, in this case 50-70.
> EI recommended potassium is 10-30 ppm, in this case 25 (based on the KNO3 dosing, but somehow still a potential deficiency).
> ...


The range they are in, and me for that matter is still "normal" EI. It has a bigger "range" then you are specifying. Even in the thread you referred to Tom say so in his last post 

"But if you look at the ranges the dosing produces, 15-30 for NO3, 2-4 for PO4, K+ 10-20ppm, not bad, it's a range, not an absolute measure

I'd general say dose 10 ppm of NO3 and about 1-1.5 ppm of PO4 per dose.

3-4x a week if very high light, high light 2-3x a week, low light 2x week."

So 10ppm x4 = 40ppm. Nothing over the top there, actually spot on for what Barr recommends. 4x 1ppm PO4 = 4ppm at least, still well in range. This is for very high light though, and you have to adjust to your tank.

Co2 I can't comment on be to much or low. But everything points in the direction more Co2=faster/healthier growth. I have seen for myself growth rate going up exponentially, after adding more than 30+ ppm Co2. But thats my opinion. Co2 is after all the limiting nutrient.

But I'm done arguing EI, thats not what this thread is about.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Quick update here: 

So I find my tank an interesting case since I had a very dense carpet and had it just melt away out of the blue. I will say there are definitely cases that the clear leaves are caused by CO2. I am very certain Diorgores issues are due to CO2 as evidenced by the distorted growth on other plants. Both Crimson and I do not have any other plants showing CO2 issues. Back when I had my carpet I was dosing a TON of K, almost to a point where I was wondering if it was wasteful. I was dosing .5 tsp at the water change and dosing 15ML of a 500ML solution with 48 grams of K2So4 mixed in. After receiving the new bag of K2So4 I made a dummy solution with it that I could test for nitrates, there were none. So this confirms my suspicion of the old bag not being K2So4. 

My current dosing of KN03 has been a 250ML solution with 40 grams of KN03 mixed dosed 5ML 3 times a week. That would yield 4ppm of K per dose time 3 to equal a total of 12ppm of potassium a week for a High light tank. This is simply not enough, especially compared to my old potassium dosing. 

So time will tell in my tank, but in other tanks cases I would look to CO2 and how your other plants look.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Give it about 3 weeks at higher k levels and we shall see what happens.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

I really dont think this is a K deficiency.
In my case it cant be because im dosing 20ml in a 200L tank of this solution:
Kno2: 60g(i have done the nitrate test and this week im dosing a half of it because the resoult of it was 80ppm , too high).
Kh2po4: 9.31g (now im dosing 13 and see what happen).
K2so3: 24.85g
500ml

Soo... It cant be deficiency

Traces im dosing 20ml of this solution:
500ml destiled water
29.71g traces
0.5 assorbic acid

In this moment my ph goes to 6.4 with co2. Without co2 at all is 7.6. So.... I have co2!

I really dont know what is my problem....im about 2 years testing my aquarium....i'm almost going to a low tech tank...really.

I do a 50% water change every sunday.
I have 108w at 15cm over the surface. My tank is 200L(120x40x43).
Im using akadama as substrate.

I have two filters jbl 1501e. One with biological materies and other with mechanic materies.


So, how are this plant in the new substrate?? 



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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Diogoreis said:


> I really dont think this is a K deficiency.
> In my case it cant be because im dosing 20ml in a 200L tank of this solution:
> Kno2: 60g(i have done the nitrate test and this week im dosing a half of it because the resoult of it was 80ppm , too high).
> Kh2po4: 9.31g (now im dosing 13 and see what happen).
> ...


Plants in the substrate are better. Yes you have CO2 but how is the CO2 reaching the substrate and what is your lighting. Your tank conditions still look like a CO2 deficiency to me.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

My lighting i already said.
I have a flaut all over the back of the aquarium sending water to the front near to the surface.


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## Eddie80 (Oct 29, 2010)

I'm on the same boat. I don't know what to do anymore. Granted, i don't have CO2, i dose excel daily, but this has never happened to me.

I bought a bag of substrate for plants, and turns out it doesn't have any nutrients...

Last time i had a planted tank it was lush and green with much less light, but i did make the substrate with clay, humus and crushed fertilizer tabs under the gravel...

I have now this tank, where i EI dose, and it's been really difficult, even if i am not keeping specially hard to keep plants. My Hygros aren't doing as well as i would have hoped, and i am dosing twice as much potassium...

I have 2 t5HO tubes, 24 watts each for a 25 G tank that almost 18" tall....


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm mine have started growing good and no leaves are clear or melting anymore. I'm getting algae on leaves of my plants l, but I think it's mostly due to too much light. And the room has started getting ambient spring light. Eventually I may go for a light less powerful and more controllable.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Eddie80 said:


> I'm on the same boat. I don't know what to do anymore. Granted, i don't have CO2, i dose excel daily, but this has never happened to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hi Eddie, 

You'll need Co2 with that much light. Cut back to 1 t5 bulb and lower your dosing.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

So update on my end, potassium dosing for about a week now. I see one plant that is trying to melt in the soil container with osmocote. My CO2 is still pretty high, saw my fish looking for air a few times this week so I bumped it down a little. Still seeing some weird growth on a few other plants, AR mini stunted again.... Now that I got my fertilizers sorted back out im going back to my traditional EI method, with increased potassium. Still a bit to early to tell going to give it a few weeks now that the ferts are back in order.


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## AoxomoxoA (Apr 22, 2010)

Are you positive you're getting enough flow down low? It could explain why some folks have had S repens start out great then deteriorated as tank(s) grew in. This happened to me about 4 years ago. I had lots of flow but aimed a powerhead down towards the substrate anyways. Never happened since. Maybe I'm lucky.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Its interesting you bring up flow. When I grew this the best (A full carpet to where I couldn't see my substrate) I had almost no flow, all i was running was a Aquaclear HOB 30 on a 26 gallon tank. 

Now I can see a slight sway to the plants around it. I use an inline diffuser so I get a ton of little bubbles and I see how they are distributed and move around the tank.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

May or may not be related, but I still think its relevant:


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmm I'm still curious to see what happens in the next couple weeks for you.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Anything yet Carl? Mine are actually needing a trim.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

bcarl_10gal said:


> May or may not be related, but I still think its relevant:



This is my f*** problem to!! Im trying to solve this for about 2 years!!
Can you put here a photo of althernanthera?
Can uou put here the plant that are in the new substrate?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

My update: The S. Repens in the Aquasoil have now melted. I have just finished installing a rex grigg reactor and have some interesting observations. Even at the same bubble rate, I now can't get the (7dKH)DC to turn yellow. The pH is the same in the tank: 6.3, degassed is 7.6. I am starting to think the 7-up bubbles were entering the drop checker and giving me a false reading. For right now I have the BML turned down to about 50PAR at the bottom while I get a feel for the reactor.

With the Aquasoil though, its better, the plants in it do have better root structures and it has the biggest stem of downoi I have ever grown. I might bring the lights up a little bit but I am curious to see what would happen if I lowered them... a lot.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

bcarl, are the plants in the soil substrate melting? Can you post photos of them so we can compare with how they looked a few weeks back?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Here are some pics from tonight and from this weekends water change. The pots pictured are aquasoil(has downoi) and regular soil no osmocote.







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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Hmmm I still think they might turn around after a couple more weeks of the new dosing. Mine are good, just battling algae as usual. Really should sell my light and get something else.


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## Zapins (Jan 7, 2006)

bcarl, so the potted plants in the photos are the same ones from a few weeks ago? Doesn't look like they have improved at all?

crimson, glad things seem to have turned around for you.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

It cant crimson, put some photos of the plants!


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

@Zapins, yeah they are the same pots, plants etc. What do you think of the AR mini pictures? I have my light turned down to about 50PAR, if they still melt then.... well we got real problems.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Solutions ppl! I want solutions!.. :/


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

*With reguards to co2 bubbles in the dropchecker...*

I have the same problems with repens melt. Always have, and have collaborated with other members on this forum for months. I have concluded the same basic things found here:

---->CO2 issue

---->K+ issue

Oh and by the way: just tested my newish bag of k2so4 for nitrate. Off the scale. I knew it smelt and looked different. Thanks GLA. 


Here is a small article I wrote about co2 misting and drop checkers over a year ago. No one seemed to care 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=529250&highlight=

b_carl, I also found that over doing micros can cause all sorts of wacky things to happen. Namely, toxicities occur and block the uptake of other things. Right now (and have been for the last 4ish months) I dose:

20 ppm K + weekly (this was actually KNO3)
15 ppm NO3
2 ppm PO4
.15 ppm CSM + B 

Little low on the traces? Yeah. Plants don't need a lot of them in my experience. I have a fully grown out 75g tank with a field of repens right now. If I notice some obvious iron deficiency I dose another .15 ppm a week as iron gluc. Iron is the only element I've seen a deficiency for.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Positron, 

Contact GLA about the mislabeled bag, at a minimum they will replace it but I am very interested in what they tell you. K2So4 has a scent to it where as KNO3, otherwise I found the powders almost identical in consistency. 

Good article on the DC's 100% agree. 

My micro mix is currently is the equivalent of .15ppm plus some extra DPTA. I dose this 3 times a week. I see a noticable improvements in red plants when I am dosing the DPTA. There might be to many micro's soaked into the substrate from the past high dosing and root tabs. 

I am still keeping the lights down to see how the tank responds, so far I haven't seen the plants extend like I had expected. Also while I have been lazy with my micros thinking that may be the problem my AR mini has gotten worse, I have found multiple threads saying they like more Iron/Traces.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Ppl in tired. Really tired. My plants are [censored][censored][censored][censored] and i think that we could do a test. change the lamps and duplucate the dose of everything. If you have low kh put sodium bicarbonate. Max co2. I dont know what to do anymore. Im almost going to low tech because my plants are [censored][censored][censored][censored].


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Diogoreis, can you put your dosing schedule up? Sorry if you pasted it before, my slow phone isn't finding it.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Per week
3x 1/2 kno3
3x 1/8 traces
3x 1/8 k2hso4
7ppm calcium
2.5ppm magnesium
Co2 yellow
Ph 7.7
Ph with co2 6.4
200 liters thank
108w light 7h/day


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I still don't think this is a CO2 light/balance issue. After I turned my lights down I am still seeing this, the ludwigia is right by the spray bar output so I know it gets great flow/co2. Also the tips of the ludwigia look really good as well.







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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Your problem is different than mine. Mine just turn transparent, yours the part turns like green, right? Or this just happens on ludwigia? This is very strange. I dont know anymore what to do. This week i will try a new bulb. And next i will try to put a lot of nutrients


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

The tank is near to some window? Im not asking if the tank takes direct sun, im asking if it takes light from the window.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

The star repens started to melt again.... The tank is in a room that gets natural sunlight but it is not direct sunlight. 

Something I find interesting is that I use RO/DI water, typically I don't use alkaline/acid buffers since even after water changes the KH stays about the same. I am not sure about the chemistry behind the KH/pH buffers or why it stays stable.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

What is your kh?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

4dKH, my pH stays stable, but if there are other things impacting this measurement and I don't have the necessary electrolytes this could be a thought. I am not too sure of the chemistry but maybe someone else can chime in.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

I dont understand very well this....
4kh is good...
I dont know what to think or do..
Can i see a picture of your aquarium?


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

bcarl_10gal said:


> The star repens started to melt again.... The tank is in a room that gets natural sunlight but it is not direct sunlight.
> Something I find interesting is that I use RO/DI water, typically I don't use alkaline/acid buffers since even after water changes the KH stays about the same. I am not sure about the chemistry behind the KH/pH buffers or why it stays stable.


 bcarl, this looks exactly identical to problems I was having in my 20g, and to some extent in my 75 gallon. Although my AR wasn't the mini, the leaves would go translucent with spots and even green in other areas. I was never able to find the problem. I tried raising GH to 20 ppm Ca and 5 ppm Mg, lower nitrates to 5, lower K+ to only dosing with KNO3, root tabs, lower trace dosing, raising trace dosing. I even cranked co2 to pH of 5.8 (kh 1.7). 
After months of trying I gave up and threw the AR out. Erios in the tank wasn't doing well either, but is doing okay now. The only thing that really grows like a weed in my tanks is Blyxa. I don't get it. Many things do well, but there was a time 18 months ago that I could grow anything very well. Keeping the traces down seemed to have helped. 
I feel your pain on this. I don't get what is causing twisted, discolored, bruised and scortched look to the AR.
The same thing was happening to my L. repens but a lot less severity. Crinkled leaves and the occasional hole in the leaf. 
S. Repens grows okay, but the leaves are bent backwards like there is too much light. /shrug
I've just renovated my 75 gallon tank. 95% water change and moved everything around. Vac the eco complete and shoved a few more granules of O+ in there. Things are really doing great for now. Rotala is growing straight up and colorful. We'll see how it goes.


The only thing that seemed to work temporarily is a water change. Every time I did one the AR would perk up, put out a few more normal leaves and look nice and red. After about 3 days things would go down hill again.
Seems like a co2 issue, right? Or some nutrient in changed water that is running out, but I don't' know what it is.

EDIT: I was looking at that leaf of AR a few pages back and I'm quite interested. This is exactly what mine looked like. It's like the plant is storing something that becomes toxic and that part of the leaf dies back.


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## Beefy (Mar 6, 2015)

Positron said:


> After about 3 days things would go down hill again.
> Seems like a co2 issue, right? Or some nutrient in changed water that is running out, but I don't' know what it is.


The water change may also reduce something that you are adding back to the tank, or something else that is building up over time. Excess nutrients being added? Organics from the substrate building up? I am quite convinced that everyone has collectively ruled out deficiencies, so a toxicity is what we are left with.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Ok. I was especting to see the solution after all the text xD. Yes probably was my ar.
I dont know to what is happening.... Did you add some product to take off the chlor?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Yeah, I think we've all ruled out a deficiency in all of our cases. In my case i am still thinking a micro toxicity, salt from my softener getting through the RO/DI system. I am cutting micros out of dosing and going to blend some city water (I have a friend that is going to let me fill up some water jugs).


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## Positron (Jul 22, 2013)

Beefy said:


> The water change may also reduce something that you are adding back to the tank, or something else that is building up over time. Excess nutrients being added? Organics from the substrate building up? I am quite convinced that everyone has collectively ruled out deficiencies, so a toxicity is what we are left with.


 Yup this is my thinking as well. Something is building up to toxic levels. Let's take a look at my city's most updated water quality information:









Here we see nothing really outstanding. Total Hardness is only 5.84 ppm, but I add Ca and Mg in a 3 to 1 ratio to bring it to a total of ~20ish ppm combined hardness.

Chloramines 2.57 ppm. Destroyed by prime. I hope 

Barium too low to be of concern

copper is interesting. Coming out of the reservoir it's 0.0016 ppm and the average of 60 homes tested 0.19 ppm. This is quite high IMO. However nothing shows on the cheap API copper test for either in tank or tap.

Fluoride I hate it, but it's there and present in many people's tank at similar levels.

Haloacetic acids low enough to not worry, and is a by product of water sanitation

Lead not present in pre treated waters and I don't use lead pipes. The city doesn't either obviously.

Trihalomethanes. Not concerned.

Uranium .55 ppb. Really low

On the upper right of the picture we see pre treated water specifications. Nothing really outstanding here except 3.2 ppb Mn which is very low and at nutrient use levels. Copper is at nutrient use levels too.

Here is some other non EPA regulated elements:









I don't really know much about these very trace elements, but I do know seachem trace addes strontium and vanadium to the water. 9 ppb of strontium? Don't know if that's a lot. .05 ppb Vanadium seems like nothing. Chlorate (ClO) is 170 ppb but it's part of the breakdown of chloramine I believe and easily removed by prime. 

So what is not adding up here? I don't think I have bad water. In fact our city is recognized as having very pure water. The only thing I've been thinking about is a build up of copper, but I can't prove it unless I do a lab test on my tank water vs tap water.

EDIT for reference my dosing:

75 gallon tank:

WEEKLY AMOUNTS IN PPM

18 ppm K+
20 ppm NO3 
2.1 ppm PO4
------
2 ppm CaSO4
1 ppm CaCl2
1 ppm MgSO4
------

0.3 ppm CSM + B
0.15 ppm 11% DTPA iron

CO2:
pH 6.10 / kH 1.7 (about 28 ppm carb hardness). Calculated to be 28-35 ppm co2. Raising to 60+ ppm has no effect.
CO2 is injected via min max reactor into the OUT of a fluval 206 + 400 gph pump. CO2 infused water is plunged into the tank via a 3 foot spray bar located at center height for even distribution (Not shown in picture, just upgraded the spray bar.) 

LIGHT: BML 6300 dutch XB + 48 inch fluval full spectrum LED in the back. BML is at 70%. Lights on 10 hours. 

Circulation: korelia 850 gph powerhead at left side of tank aimed slightly upwards(Not shown in picture, just upgraded this). Good visible flow on the tank.

Full tank shot. Things look good with a FTS, but upon close examination of the s. repens downward cupping is evident. I can't seem to fix it. Ludwigia Red, Repens all pulled out for scraggly, bad growth described earlier. Aromatica seems to do quite well.


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Your tank overall looks great. I think the cupping is due to too much light, I'd cut the light back to 8 hours and see what happens. I wouldn't worry with city water for the most part. The reason why my water is different is that I have a well with a water softener that strips out the hardness with salts/chlorines. I have some concerns that the RO filter may not be removing the salts.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)




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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

I think we both might have to many micros, your tank does have some hair algae which points to CO2 as well, I do not have algae.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

I constantly have hair green algae.. I dont know why.
Traces im dosing 3x 1/8 tsp per week....


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

The only time I have ever gotten hair algae was low co2, if you dose root tabs, they also contain trace elements. If the plants have all the micros they need they will not uptake your dose resulting in a toxicity. Cut out the micros for a few weeks and don't change anything and see what happens, if they multiple plants start stunting you then know you created a micro deficiency and then you can rule it out. 

@onlycrimson hows your tank?


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Weeks?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Yes, if something is toxic you have to reduce below toxic levels and then wait for the plants to respond.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

Ppl, if you think that is toxic thing. Ehat do you think we start by below? Like we just dose a litle doses and then by deficiency we just grow the dose.. 
I DONT KNOW!! I will try to find some place here to test my water! 
My tap water
My water in the end of the week


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

I'm just tired to see my aquarium like this and i dont know what to do... 
In my university i will ask if they test the water to see what my water have.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

I have had no problems with the plants as far as growth goes or clearing of the leaves. It seems that perhaps increasing the K and a few weeks to respond may have helped. I am getting much less algae now, just a little cyano bacteria in a couple spots that is easy enough to vacuum up. I still want to get a less powerful controllable light like a sat+, because I just have way too much light with a planted plus in like 7 inches of water. My photoperiod is only about 5 hours.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

How much ppm are you dosing? Are you dosing kno3 and k2so3? How much ppm of potassium of each?


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## bcarl_10gal (Feb 13, 2014)

Good to hear yours are doing better! From reading a ton of these threads it seems like the common theme is that star repens melting is more of a sign of something poor about tank conditions rather than just plain deficiencies, in your case it was not enough potassium. Once you reestablish the balance they will stop melting.


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## onlycrimson (Sep 7, 2010)

Well I got a new light. The current sat + pro. It's way less light than the planted plus. Which should be good for my tank and slow my stems down. I have to trim bacopa and ludwigia heavily every week and it's just too much.


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## Diogoreis (May 7, 2012)

People, who have this problem i would like to ask if the aquarium is near of a window and if the room is full of light. Because mine is in a room that is 3 windows and there is full of ligh. The aquarium doesnt take firect sun but the room is with a lot of light from 8h till 20h... And mayve this could be the problem. 


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