# Flourish Excel or Florin Axis?



## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

I've never used it. However, I've read the claims by the manufacturer. All I can tell you is it reads like most snake oil advertisements. Throw a lot of complicated scientific terms in and most people will assume it must be a high tech new product.

Carbon from Citric acid, Sodium citrate?...I suppose there could be some but it certainly won't be close to glut. Which is cheaper. 

"Krebs cycle intermediates". What a fancy term for epsom salt. :icon_roll

Personally, I'd stick with Excel or glut. I see nothing miraculous in the ingredients despite the claims. If it were much better than glut I think it would be more popular. There's probably a reason for that.


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## greaser84 (Feb 2, 2014)

I've never used it. If your looking for cheap and effective metricide is the best and is a lot stronger. 1 gallon for 20 bucks on ebay


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## IDR (Apr 12, 2014)

Zorfox said:


> I've never used it. However, I've read the claims by the manufacturer. All I can tell you is it reads like most snake oil advertisements. Throw a lot of complicated scientific terms in and most people will assume it must be a high tech new product.
> 
> Carbon from Citric acid, Sodium citrate?...I suppose there could be some but it certainly won't be close to glut. Which is cheaper.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I won't lie — just in going over a lot of the information, I felt like I needed a chemistry degree with a minor in biology.

The reason I was asking if anyone had any real experience with it is because I really haven't been able to find any real evidence of it's effect anywhere, and it's not as though Excel hasn't been working well for me.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=89613


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## TXNNVA (Jan 13, 2014)

*I think you stay with what works for you!*

No need for a new unknown.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Zorfox said:


> "Krebs cycle intermediates". What a fancy term for epsom salt. :icon_roll


I just wanted to point out that nowhere in the Krebs cycle is Epsom salt involved.

That being said, I would be skeptical of a product like Florin Axis; it seems 'too good to be true.'


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## burr740 (Feb 19, 2014)

greaser84 said:


> I've never used it. If your looking for cheap and effective metricide is the best and is a lot stronger. 1 gallon for 20 bucks on ebay


+1 for Metricide. Amazon has quarts for $14 and gallons for $25


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi All,

Citric acid is a source of carbon.

I am not a biologist but from what I understand inside each plant we have a couple of growth cycles going on; the Calvin Cycle and the Krebs Cycle. The Calvin Cycle deals with plant photosysthesis and the production of sucrose. The Krebs Cycle deals with plant respiration which uses sucrose. The glutaraldehyde in Seachem Excel / API CO2 Booster et al boosts the Calvin Cycle. Citric acid is a natural part of the Krebs Cycle which uses the sucrose for respiration. Additional citric acid would boost the Kreps cycle.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Darkblade48 said:


> I just wanted to point out that nowhere in the Krebs cycle is Epsom salt involved.
> 
> That being said, I would be skeptical of a product like Florin Axis; it seems 'too good to be true.'


Yet that is their claim...



> A concentrated source of bioavailable carbon, Krebs cycle intermediates, humic & amino acids, and naturally-occurring phytohormones





> Ingredients in FlorinAxis provide the following:
> 
> Citric Acid and Citrate - Organic carbon source and a confirmed stimulator of the Krebs cycle; carbon is required for all organic compounds.
> 
> ...


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Zorfox said:


> Yet that is their claim...


Ohhhh, magnesium as a cofactor for enzyme activity; yes this is true.

Krebs cycle intermediate would imply molecules that are directly produced as a result of enzymatic activity on pyruvate.

Magnesium sulfate might be in this product, but would not be considered a Krebs cycle intermediate. Magnesium is required by enzymes for proper enzymatic activity, but the addition of it in this product is questionable at best, as unless you are actively sequestering magnesium (i.e. with a chelator), it is unlikely your water column will be deprived to the point where enzymatic activity ceases.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

That makes sense Darkblade.

I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria. 

Basically, glucose crosses the cell membrane. Glycolysis (break the glucose into two pyruvate molecules) occurs in the cytoplasm. Then the pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. We still don't have citric acid. Now we have to oxidize the pyruvates. Finally, after moving into the mitochondria, utilizing multiple enzymes to create the citric acid the kreb cycle can begin. It begins inside the mitochondria not the water column.

I would imagine citric acid would become buffered rather quickly. How much can actually be transported into the mitochondria for the process to start? It doesn't seem a viable way to produce CO2 to me.

The whole concept is like saying third world countries can't starve because we have plenty of food here. Well, the food is here not in the world of mitochondria where it's needed.

All that said, I would have to say that greater than 90% of hobbyists have never heard of the kreb cycle. The terminology sounds "smart" so it must work...right?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Zorfox said:


> That makes sense Darkblade.
> 
> I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria.
> 
> ...


I plan to Krebbs cycle my tank the next time I set it up. I expect to experience no algae as a result.:biggrin:


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Hoppy said:


> I plan to Krebbs cycle my tank the next time I set it up. I expect to experience no algae as a result.:biggrin:


I like it! lol

If you use Alaskan King Kreb instead of Blue Krebs you can grow an HC carpet in a week. Not to mention your red plants will be much redder.:icon_wink


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Zorfox said:


> That makes sense Darkblade.
> 
> I wonder how effectively plants can utilize citrate in the water column since citric acid is produced from the oxidation of the pyruvate in the mitochondria.


Hard to speculate; you could trace the path of the molecule with radioactive C14, but it is more hassle than it is worth. 

One could also speculate that the process is done by bacteria, and that the CO2 generated as a byproduct is absorbed by plants as it diffuses across the cellular membrane.



Zorfox said:


> Basically, glucose crosses the cell membrane. Glycolysis (break the glucose into two pyruvate molecules) occurs in the cytoplasm. Then the pyruvate moves into the mitochondria. We still don't have citric acid. Now we have to oxidize the pyruvates. Finally, after moving into the mitochondria, utilizing multiple enzymes to create the citric acid the kreb cycle can begin. It begins inside the mitochondria not the water column.


To be nitpicky, glucose is transported across the cell membrane, and does not simply cross it. 

The process you have described for the metabolism of pyruvate is correct for eukaryotes. The process is similar in prokaryotes, but occurs in the cytoplasm and not in the mitochondria.



Zorfox said:


> I would imagine citric acid would become buffered rather quickly. How much can actually be transported into the mitochondria for the process to start? It doesn't seem a viable way to produce CO2 to me.


It would essentially be buffered immediately upon dissolution in water. I believe there is a plasma membrane citrate transporter that would transport citrate across the cellular membrane, but am unsure as to its actual mechanism of action.


So refreshing to think of cellular biology like this; I have been focusing on a completely different thing for the last 2 years, so it's nice to be able to recall these things


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## SprManKalEl (Mar 12, 2013)

Some of the information is too technical for me. I have used FlorinAxis and Excel. I followed the dosing instructions of Ecxel and while it eradicated algae it did melt the anacharis I had (I could not bring it back) and also some other stem plants that now grow quite well without the Excel. I did the initial dose and only dosed every other day. I stopped using it and algae came back in full force very quickly. I am currently dosing Florin Axis at 6 drops daily in my 50 gallon and 2 in my 10 gallon. It is hard to say if the DIY CO2, the Florin Axis or a combination of the 2 is helping my plants thrive. Just yesterday I added a second 2L bottle to my 50G DIY CO2 setup. Before I put the CO2 on I was doing with FlorinAxis and FlorinMulti and I noticed good growth. I think the FlorinAxis is supplementing the CO2 as I am not using pressurized yet.


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## Zorfox (Jun 24, 2012)

Being nit picky is not a problem for me! I do realize glucose is transported. I wasn't actually trying to be too accurate in the description.

Nit Picky? Well, please continue. I did learned something from you as a result. I didn't realize that the cycle occurred in cytoplasm for prokaryotes. My knowledge is based on human metabolisms. Higher plants that we keep are Eukaryotic correct? Not that it matters, just curious as usual.

I think the fact that citrate will be buffered straight away sort of negates the CO2 benefits. No need to go into the kreb cycle at all. Common sense tells me it just isn't a good option on this alone.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Zorfox said:


> Higher plants that we keep are Eukaryotic correct? Not that it matters, just curious as usual.


Yes, plants belong to a different domain, and are eukaryotic by definition.



Zorfox said:


> I think the fact that citrate will be buffered straight away sort of negates the CO2 benefits. No need to go into the kreb cycle at all. Common sense tells me it just isn't a good option on this alone.


Hard to say whether this product (Florin Axis) is truly effective or not; science is always an unclear field of study. Somethings that we were so sure about only 10 years ago have been completely revolutionized, so whether the product works or not remains to be seen.

However, as a scientist, I am always skeptical of any product that makes too many bold claims, unless there is solid evidence to back up their claims.


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## Rossfett (Jul 16, 2011)

I've been using FlorinAxis for a couple of months with some of their other products, FlorinMulti and FlorinGro. I've really seen a difference. It's a daily fertilizer, like excel can be. The biggest difference, I've noticed is the plants seem stronger, and less delicate. I don't want to repeat the chemistry, but Excel is like a steroid, fast growth that doesn't seem as hardy. Once you start using it, you're hooked. I started using FlorinAxis because I'm searching for a fertilizer that builds hardier plants, without the a lot of the problems I've run into over the years. 
Pros:
It seems to be a pyruvic/anabolism stimulant, building up tissue at a steady and strong rate. I imagine it would take a lot of overdosing for this to be fatal to tank inhabitants. Unlike Excel. 
Cons:
It can be difficult to find balance, I've had to battle through some algae outbreaks, and playing with the dosage as my plant growth increases has been challenging. Some plants seem unaffected. ie. My downoi. 

This isn't the end of my search, but I'm certainly happy at the moment.


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## Darkblade48 (Jan 4, 2008)

Excel is not really a fertilizer; it is more of a carbon supplement. 

The effects of FlorinAxis that you describe sounds like normal healthy plant growth, i.e. if you were to dose Excel and fertilize plants.


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## Hilde (May 19, 2008)

After using both for several months I have come to believe excel provides more Co2 than FlorinAxis. FlorinAxis though helps new plants to adjust from rich Co2 environment to low Co2 environment. 

Now I am mixing something that has a little of both. My solution is Excel with some lemon juice. Lemon juice provides the citric acid in FlorinAxis. This in addition dosing Soda water. If I could get FlorinAxis locally I would use it and Excel. To keep expenses down I make my own Excel using Metricide (1.5 x container)/ cidex glut% = glut. There are couple of thread on Metricide here.


Rossfett said:


> I've been using FlorinAxis for a couple of months. The plants seem stronger, and less delicate. I started using FlorinAxis because I'm searching for a fertilizer that builds hardier plants, without the a lot of the problems I've run into over the years.
> Pros:
> It seems to be a pyruvic/anabolism stimulant, building up tissue at a steady and strong rate. I imagine it would take a lot of overdosing for this to be fatal to tank inhabitants. Unlike Excel.
> Cons:
> It can be difficult to find balance, I've had to battle through some algae outbreaks, and playing with the dosage as my plant growth increases has been challenging. Some plants seem unaffected. ie. My downoi.


For my plants I find it is nitrates that make them strong. I put just a little of it in fert solution from select aquatics , which I dosed weekly. My plants especially a crypt started wilting. Thus now dosing daily with KNO3. I supply it by dosing KNO3 from Spectricide Stump Remover, which I get from HD or Lowes'. KNO3 seems to be the most important fert in my tank. When I started my planted tank a few years it helped me to get BBA (black brush algae) under control.


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