# Cause of "white band of death" on Red Cherry Shrimp



## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Thanks for providing all pertinent info! I've yet to encounter WRoD in mass numbers but my understanding is too little calcium either in the diet or water column. I've also heard that too large of a parameter change can cause it by forcing an early molt. Unless your KH is all magnesium I can't imagine it's a deficiency in your water. Or an issue with such a varied diet. I am not a fan of Excel in shrimp tanks. It kills exactly what they eat. Here's a slightly alarmist article on it, but think about that impact on an animal that forages for film algae and biofilm: https://www.sunkengardens.net/blog/...-liquid-co2-and-the-dangers-of-glutaraldehyde I'm sure a lot of people use it with shrimp and never have a problem. But I do feel it's had a negative impact in my own shrimp tanks, though never with the symptoms you're seeing. I've changed my mind about a number of things over the years in this hobby, but to boil down what I believe about keeping healthy shrimp would be: Use mature tanks with growing live plants, keep them hungry (they should always swarm food, I feed 2-3x weekly except for tanks with high populations), keep their tanks and filters clean, keep them cool, no or minimal fish, try to avoid large water changes, and don't use Excel. I'm a fan of some leaf litter for foraging, I use oak because it grows in my yard but there's a list of safe ones for shrimp if you do a site search. Not sure how many shrimp you have left, but all you need is a pair and the tank can be crawling with them again. Wishing you luck.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks Blue Ridge Reef! I'm going to stop with the excel and see how that goes. Also going to make sure they have a little piece of generic calcium tablet available at all times in the tank. I'll try keeping that GH at 6. I googled the ingredients of Seachem Equilbrium:

Guaranteed Analysis
Amounts per 1 g	
Soluble Potash (K2O) 23.0%
Calcium (Ca) 8.06%
Magnesium (Mg) 2.41%
Iron (Fe) 0.11%
Manganese (Mn) 0.06%

Does that look okay for the GH? I don't really understand the chemistry behind it, although I've tried.

I could put baking soda in my tank, but my PH is so high right now I'm having problems with shell erosion of my mystery snail. I'm thinking I need to paint him to protect his shell, but I'm concerned that the acrylic paint (fingernail paint) will come off into the tank and cause a whole new set of problems. He hasn't been moving around too much over the last few days. Hoping he's not dying. 

Couple things I missed for you. I do water changes once a week and I take out 5 gallons in my 20 gallon tank. I run an upflow algae scrubber but not beaming light onto it at present to grow the algae. The phosphates are pretty low as it is, so the plants seem to be using enough of it (no algae blooms, although I'd love to see some green algae on the scrubber but don't want to risk screwing up my plant growth). As to the UAS, essentially it's just a rectangular airstone with a piece of plastic mesh attached to it. I use it mostly for water flow because I've heard the current is good for the plants and to reduce algae formation. Nevertheless, it is growing some weak black algae on it, which the shrimp seem sort of interested in. If I beamed light onto it I'm sure I'd get some green algae growth but I'd rather have the phosphates used by the live plants. 

Funny you had mentioned oak leaves. I did that last year with black oak leaves (I live in NH) that I harvested in the fall and the shrimp liked it. I checked on my white ringer today and it's not looking good. I see him in the upper corner of the tank holding onto the silicon sealant for the aquarium glass and not moving. Other shrimp are checking him out, which means in my experience he's going to drop onto the substrate and he will become lunch. 

So are you saying that a varied diet is a bad thing for these guys, or are you concerned that maybe one of the things I'm feeding them is not agreeing with their diet? Or maybe something I'm feeding has gone bad? Thanks again for your help!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I was saying your diet looks good and varied. Do not add baking soda, it’s pure KH. I’m on mobile and turning in for the night but will elaborate tomorrow.

Between the shrimp and mystery snail shell erosion, signs would point to a calcium deficiency but your GH says otherwise and you keep cuttlebone in there and feed high calcium foods. As far as I know, API only makes a calcium test for marine but Nutrafin makes a fw one: https://www.amazon.com/Nutrafin-Calcium-Test-Fresh-Saltwater/dp/B0002568F4 I would go that route and determine a value before adding more calcium to a tank that may be quite high already. Here's a good primer on KH, take a moment to navigate to the GH page from there and it should clear up a lot of the terms: https://fishlab.com/aquarium-kh/

Your tank water results look fine for Neo shrimp. You feed more frequently than I would but diet looks on point and if uneaten food isn't an issue then it shouldn't be contributing to what you have going on. I used Equilibrium for years with good results to remineralize RO water. I no longer use that brand because it had a lot of precipitates when I'd mix large quantities and Salty Shrimp and Dennerle products did not. Of course, you can "roll your own" too. But if using tap that is shrimp-friendly, I'd be inclined to use straight tap and not alter it. It's just one more variable to have to match each water change. Neo shrimp will live and breed in awfully soft water. Can you test your tap (KH, GH, and TDS)?


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

My recommendation... try to keep the GH at 7-8. Pre-treat all new water going in so it matches what's in the tank.

Stop dosing Excel. Probably don't need iodine either?

Stop feeding so much food!


The biggest issue could be too much protein in the diet and overfeeding. Feed a vegetable/algae based diet twice a week (please read labels! many "algae tabs/pellets" are algae infused, not algae based!) and then a protein food once a week.


Do this for at least a month or two before changing anything else.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks guys for the additional feedback and thanks Blue Ridge Reef for the links!

I have a KH test kit. Is KH different than calcium? Sorry for my stupidity. I know they are different chemical symbols. Are they different chemicals? Like phosphates and nitrates? I thought there was some kind of relation between KH and CA. 

Equilibrium - when you say "precipitates" do you mean that white stuff that gets on the glass? I have that too, but the equilibrium is much less expensive than the salty shrimp so I'm just using it for now. 

With the KH and shrimp, I've heard everything that KH doesn't matter for them to you should keep it around 3-4 so you won't get PH swings and shock the shrimp at night. What would you recommend the KH should be for the RCS and snails (my mystery, racer nerite and peanut - I don't know what he is) snail?

I've stopped the excel. 

I'll bump up the GH to 7-8 from 6. I tried that before and it didn't seem to make a difference on the deaths. Only thing that seemed to have helped was the GFO, but not in the long run and my plants suffered badly from the lack of phosphates. Right now phosphates are good at 0.025 - 0.50. Plants need some to grow and if I drop it lower my plants decay.

I had added the iodine to the routine many months ago b/c of these unexplained shrimp deaths. Didn't even see a band of death. They just fell over and died. BTW - I lost another adult today, not the one with the band. Amazingly he's still alive and kicking. I saw a shed today with eggs on it. So one of the females jettisoned her cargo to molt - that sucks. Anyway, I had read the jury's still out on whether the iodine is helpful or harmful but I figured it was something I'd try. Apparently, it's not helping but since I already spent money on it I figured I'd continue.


There's no uneaten food in the tank by morning. Plate is licked clean. I don't want to skip meals because my mystery snail, Cthulhu, needs to eat and so does my emerald corycat. If I don't feed them they will be really hungry. Zoidburg, I'm giving the guys fresh veggies + the omega one veggie rounds. I thought the veggie rounds are supposed to be the top dog for algae wafers. Are they no good? Here's the ingredients:

Salmon, Whole Herring, Wheat Germ, Wheat Flour, Rice Bran, Kelp, Whole Shrimp, Pea Protein, Wheat Gluten, Spirulina, Herring Oil, Citric Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Niacin, Inositol, Astaxanthin, Canthaxanthin, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement
Guaranteed Analysis: 

Min. Crude Protein….35%
Min. Crude Fat……….10%
Max. Crude Fiber…….4%
Max. Moisture………. 8.5%
Max. Ash……………..9%

Is there another one either of you would recommend that's algae based I should feed them instead? Should I try to generate some green algae on the algae scrubber? Not sure how it will go but I'll try it. 

They do get a lot of protein, but emerald likes the crab cuisine and the veggie rounds. He's not a big fan of the shrimp king food. Cthulhu prefers the fresh veggies (spinach, kale, arugula, asparagus, etc.) but he'll eat the other stuff in a pinch. He hasn't been moving that much the past few days. I pulled him out the last two to make sure he didn't die. I gotta paint his shell b/c he's got a lot of erosion. Speed racer (my black nerite) doesn't have any erosion problems. New tiny peanut guy / I don't know what you are shrimp is also fine. 


Thanks again for your help!


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

@asquirrel the issue with those wafers and pretty much every single other one is that the first algae ingredient is #10 on the list, sure there are peas at #8 and kelp at #6 but the primary ingredients as you can see is fish and wheat products. 

I personally have just kind of dealt with some dying. I have a pretty much community tank with shrimp. The neos are sensitive to diet but I dont have much of a way to prevent them from eating everything I put in the tank. Heck the male RCS have started skimming the water upside down to collect flake food I put in for the fish. The shrimps reproduce often enough to keep a population going and the dead shrimp disappear within a day give or take a few hours so ..... 
I will say the false amanos dont seem affected by the higher protein diet at all besides getting bigger and more rambunctious.

Guess thats why the ideal shrimp tank is just a shrimp tank.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

*I have a KH test kit. Is KH different than calcium?*
Yes and no. KH is carbonates and bi-carbonates. Calcium typically falls under general hardness, aka GH. If you use calcium bi/carbonates, you would be raising both KH and GH. There's also calcium citrates, calcium gluconates, calcium lactate, calcium sulfates, calcium chloride... non-carbonate sources of calcium would only raise GH but not KH.


*Sorry for my stupidity.* 
If you don't know, how else are you to learn but to ask or research? No apologies necessary!  


*I know they are different chemical symbols. Are they different chemicals? Like phosphates and nitrates? I thought there was some kind of relation between KH and CA.*
See first response.


*Equilibrium - when you say "precipitates" do you mean that white stuff that gets on the glass? I have that too, but the equilibrium is much less expensive than the salty shrimp so I'm just using it for now.*
It doesn't dissolve very well or leaves clumps on the bottom of the water when you mix it in.


*With the KH and shrimp, I've heard everything that KH doesn't matter for them to you should keep it around 3-4 so you won't get PH swings and shock the shrimp at night. What would you recommend the KH should be for the RCS and snails (my mystery, racer nerite and peanut - I don't know what he is) snail?*
If your KH is at 3, it's fine. Some shrimp do prefer higher or lower KH, but for what you have, it's fine.


*I'll bump up the GH to 7-8 from 6. I tried that before and it didn't seem to make a difference on the deaths.*
And this is why I believe the issue is primarily diet related more than anything else...


*I had added the iodine to the routine many months ago b/c of these unexplained shrimp deaths. Didn't even see a band of death. They just fell over and died. BTW - I lost another adult today, not the one with the band. Amazingly he's still alive and kicking. I saw a shed today with eggs on it. So one of the females jettisoned her cargo to molt - that sucks. Anyway, I had read the jury's still out on whether the iodine is helpful or harmful but I figured it was something I'd try. Apparently, it's not helping but since I already spent money on it I figured I'd continue.*
I feel like this confirms diet related issues even more so.


*There's no uneaten food in the tank by morning. Plate is licked clean. I don't want to skip meals because my mystery snail, Cthulhu, needs to eat and so does my emerald corycat. If I don't feed them they will be really hungry. Zoidburg, I'm giving the guys fresh veggies + the omega one veggie rounds.* 
Feeding a fish/shrimp community tank can indeed make things more difficult.... 


*I thought the veggie rounds are supposed to be the top dog for algae wafers. Are they no good? Here's the ingredients:

Salmon, Whole Herring, Wheat Germ, Wheat Flour, Rice Bran, Kelp, Whole Shrimp, Pea Protein, Wheat Gluten, Spirulina, Herring Oil, Citric Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E Supplement, Mixed Tocopherols, Niacin, Inositol, Astaxanthin, Canthaxanthin, Riboflavin, Vitamin A Supplement, Vitamin B12 Supplement*
Shrimp just merely do best on a vegetable and algae based diet. The veggie rounds? Algae is the 6th ingredient...I don't know that Hikari crab even has any algae in it... not seeing it in the ingredients list... Wardley's, if it's the right product, algae is the 9th ingredient. Don't know about Shrimp King. (many products)

In other words, they aren't getting enough algae/vegetable based matter in their diet and they are getting too much animal protein.... this has the potential to cause them to grow too fast, thus being unable to molt because their bodies aren't ready *TO* molt. Failed molts, deaths.


*Is there another one either of you would recommend that's algae based I should feed them instead? Should I try to generate some green algae on the algae scrubber? Not sure how it will go but I'll try it.*
I've been using Ken's Fish veggie sticks, Sera algae wafers (stick to glass) and spirulina powder. I can't say any of these are the best products, simply what I use for algae/vegetable based foods.



This is what I would recommend for the shrimp, so it could very well help to move them to their own tank. Myself and others have had the same issues where everything else seemed "okay" but we were still having deaths. Changed the diet and the shrimp started to thrive.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Out curiosity, how old are those Veggie Rounds? I have a jar on hand and first ingredients are whole kelp and spirulina. Just wonder if that change was for the better for worse for our purposes. Either way, I think you'd be well-served to reduce food however possible. Force them to forage the best you can. Hard to do in a fish tank, I realize.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey folks!

Blue Ridge Reef, I checked my actual package and my first two ingredients are whole kelp and spirulina as well. I pulled the info from Omega one's site:

https://www.omegasea.net/products/nutrition/veggie-rounds

Maybe the formula has changed?

Tonight I'm giving just 1/4 wafer of the veggie rounds and a small piece of broccoli. Hopefully emerald and my mystery snail realize what's been dropped into the tank before the shrimps do.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

You really don't have to feed mystery snails often either! For one snail especially, I might drop in 1/4 wafer twice a week -if I remembered to. And I wouldn't feel bad if I forgot. They graze all day. SO much food grows in a planted tank, and it's exactly what they eat naturally. Remember, these animals are regarded by some as a "cleanup crew." I don't view them this way at all, but it's important to remember that the tank alone can feed them until the populations get out of hand.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

What would my big guy snail and corycat eat if I don't feed them? Does my mystery snail eat algae on the tank glass and substrate? I'm really concerned about the shell erosion. Edit - His trap door is almost gone. 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=189pgivIlYk4NeD8yYB7CPAZDhcinetry


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

asquirrel said:


> What would my big guy snail and corycat eat if I don't feed them? Does my mystery snail eat algae on the tank glass and substrate? I'm really concerned about the shell erosion. Edit - His trap door is almost gone.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=189pgivIlYk4NeD8yYB7CPAZDhcinetry



You need to feed the fish food like you have been doing, they are not just herbivores as you know. I cant help with the snail, thats pretty rough looking and I would think very likely something to do with your water parameters, atleast thats been my experience. 



Issue with having shrimp and other critters is trying to match parameters for the shrimp and maintain the other critters. In my case I take care of everything all together and the shrimp either make it or they dont. This usually results in some deaths (usually the older ones) but in general everyone is healthy. 



Only thing I personally can suggest if you have the parameters in spec, feed the cory cat enough to live healthy, the snail should get some from this. Put some kind of veggie in like zucchini slices, thawed shelled frozen peas, cucumber slices with seeds removed, even tiny garlic slices. Just remember to remove after a day or so any uneaten veggies. 



Piece or two of cuttle bone, Ive added some to my tank and the critters chew on it from time to time but it has been in there a while. 



Thats about all I got.


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

Oh and dont forget to blanch the veggies to make them easier to eat.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

This is an interesting topic. I've heard many times about the "white band of death", and I've just started seriously breeding various Neo's here in the last 6 months. I only see it in my bloody mary's, but I'll see several with the white band around the mid section, but I don't see deaths. Currently, I've got several BM females showing this band, all of which are berried. So I guess my question is - is the white band ALWAYS a bad sign? Obviously, in OP's case, deaths are occurring so it's a problem there, but is it always a problem?


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## Quint (Mar 24, 2019)

In my limited experience it is a death sentence from what I can tell. If I see one that has it then I just assume within a few days or a week I wont see that shrimp any more or on the odd occasion Ill find the dead shrimp before it gets recycled. Not saying this will always be the case or anything just what I have scene. 

I also dont follow the preferred water change method for shrimp either. I make my water up 2-3 days before hand and do a 50% water change every Thursday give or take a day. The water is within a couple degrees of the tank. Only affects my Neos and I would guess about 90% of the time its the older ones. The false amanos I have not scene this occurrence and they seem to be unaffected by higher protein diets and large water changes.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Agree, I don't think many at all survive having a torn shell that they can't molt out of. I don't think there would be any harm in trying to peel it off manually since they're going to die anyway. It's a slim chance of survival vs virtually no chance best I can tell. And in regards to big water changes, I do it all the time on my cull tanks, even refill them with straight tap. And of course they produce better than any shrimp I have -though I suspect a lot of that is cull vigor. Full disclosure I _have_ wiped out whole tanks of them by doing this on a couple of occasions, but it's been when I've let the tank water stray too far from the source water or otherwise fault of my own. But when I had muscular necrosis a while back, I changed that tank out 60% plus daily for a couple of weeks and lost no uninfected adults that I could tell. As long as you aren't changing their parameters too much, they can take water changes. The 10% weekly rule of thumb is likely because it's almost always going to be safe -and that amount is about all that a properly fed shrimp tank should need.


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## Cinnamonamon (Oct 24, 2018)

asquirrel said:


> What would my big guy snail and corycat eat if I don't feed them? Does my mystery snail eat algae on the tank glass and substrate? I'm really concerned about the shell erosion. Edit - His trap door is almost gone.
> 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=189pgivIlYk4NeD8yYB7CPAZDhcinetry


I don't want to be all doom & gloom...but it looks like this guy might just be near the end of his life, anyway. They do have a limited lifespan, which IME is hastened by all the great care they get in an aquarium, vs. in the wild. They grow bigger, faster, and thus, come to the end of their life sooner. Once they seem to be a "big guy" and the trapdoor starts degrading, it is a matter of weeks, I think...


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey folks. Could one you guys confirm whether or not my mystery snail is still alive?

I pulled him from the tank and he's recessed really far into the shell. If I tap on his trap door he doesn't move. If I touch his body he doesn't react. If I tip him upside down and shake very lightly (and sometimes even if I just tip him upside ) down he's sliding out. He doesn't smell though.

Had him for a year or two. I just didn't want to throw him out if there was a chance he's still alive. He hasn't been moving much for the past few days.
Like hardly at all. Hasn't eaten either in about a week. I haven't seen him on the glass for about a week. Should I wait for him to stink? I've smelled dead snail before and it's probably the worst smell I've ever smelled. I have him in a little terracotta pot in case he's dead. If he starts to decompose in the tank it's going to really pollute the water. 

Dead snail?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1I0m7kALoHGPMegBswJo2G-ZcCYv19eN3


Thanks!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm afraid so. They aren't long-lived creatures in my experience. If you kept one for 2 years, that's a darn good span of time for one. If there's any doubt, put it in a jar of aquarium water and see if there's movement in the next few hours. That way you can be certain without fouling your water if it is as it appears.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

And for future reference, sure-fire way to tell if a snail is dead is the smell test. Just get it close to your nose, they smell absolutely horrendous when dead, truly awful.

Sorry for the loss of your snail.


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## Cinnamonamon (Oct 24, 2018)

I agree with Blue Ridge Reef -- and if he isn't dead now, he will be in...hours? I'd put him in a jar with some tank water and let him go on his own. Sorry -- I'm always sad about my snail babies!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

mgeorges said:


> And for future reference, sure-fire way to tell if a snail is dead is the smell test.


Once decay has set in yes, there is nothing with such an awful stench as a rotting snail. I've struggled to get the smell off of my hands from pulling them. It's wretched. As with anything dead, the odor is from the biological process of bacteria consuming the flesh. When a snail first dies though, there's no immediate odor at all. I suspect Asquirrel's snail to be either newly dead or dying, so too soon for that. And it's best to get them out your tank water before they are beginning to rot. From the photos, I didn't feel there was any chance of recovery for that snail.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

I don't think he was alive. He was thin and withered like he lost all his weight. I ended up freezing him and putting him out of his misery. 

The shrimp death saga continues. I've lost another 4 this week. All adults. I had only been feeding them a tiny bit of food every couple of days. Gave them 1/4 of a pellet of shrimp king, and 1/4 of an omega one veggie rounds. No more calcium tabs for them either.

I've noticed on at least two of the shrimp they've had the white band of death. A friend of mine suggested I empty all the water out of the tank and rinse the substrate until I see no debris coming out. Then scrub the tank with a plastic scrubber. 
Initially I thought that was a good idea, but from reading on forums I think that would force a molt and if I didn't get the params matching to what they were (temp, GH, maybe tds) it will shock the shrimp. Oh I checked my TDS. As best I can tell from my sketchy ebay TDS meter, it's 263. Optimal appears to be 150-200 but can handle anywhere between 100 -400. From forums I've read that people have had them multiplying like crazy even at 400 to 500. 

If it's the white band of death I'm seeing then aren't all the shrimp pretty much screwed? If all their exos are too hard from what they've been eating and the GH, then they won't soften up even if I nuke the tank. But wouldn't that mean they wouldn't crack at all and the shrimp would just fall over? I've seen that happen before.

If the exos are too soft, and the band is occurring b/c the exo is getting flexed but not popping off, then maybe it would help. But that doesn't make sense b/c my GH is optimal at 6. The exo should be right to pop off. 

I was going to buy a calcium test kit but I don't know what the optimum reading should be. And even if it's in the acceptable range, that doesn't necessarily mean the calcium in the water column is getting into the shrimp's exo, right? It would just stop shell erosion I think. The right way would be to feed them a calcium rich diet. But we tried that (calcium tabs, spinach, kale, etc.) and they are still dying.

Could be something in the water. But emptying the water and replacing with more tap water won't cure the problem. And why is it that this problem seems to come and go? I had upwards of 80+ shrimp in there at one time. The GFO I had in the tank seemed to help for a bit but then stopped. Did a number on my plants though. So my option would be to buy RO water and add minerals to it, or pay for a full water test and then try to figure out what in the water is causing their deaths. But they're dying during a molt so I don't think it's a chemical issue. 

Man, this is so frustrating.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Honestly, I think at this point I would just go that route. I'd move the shrimp along with 3-4 gallons tank water to a 5 gallon bucket and then just have at it. Wash gravel, get everything rinsed clean as you can, maybe even refill and drain 2-3 times. I would use dechlorinated water for rinsing and don't sterilize the filter so that enough BB can make it. For a safety net, add a sizable pouch of zeolite to the filter to absorb any NH4 spike that may come along. With an airstone, the shrimp should live fine in the bucket for a week or two with a scoop of tank gravel, some moss and floating plant matter. I wouldn't feed shrimp during this time. Then drip acclimate the shrimp back to the tank and wait and see. Extreme measure, but it's looking like you're going to be out of shrimp if you wait too much longer.

I would not assume that shrimp not showing the white band are goners.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Honestly, I think at this point I would just go that route. I'd move the shrimp along with 3-4 gallons tank water to a 5 gallon bucket and then just have at it. Wash gravel, get everything rinsed clean as you can, maybe even refill and drain 2-3 times. I would use dechlorinated water for rinsing and don't sterilize the filter so that enough BB can make it. For a safety net, add a sizable pouch of zeolite to the filter to absorb any NH4 spike that may come along. With an airstone, the shrimp should live fine in the bucket for a week or two with a scoop of tank gravel, some moss and floating plant matter. I wouldn't feed shrimp during this time. Then drip acclimate the shrimp back to the tank and wait and see. Extreme measure, but it's looking like you're going to be out of shrimp if you wait too much longer.
> 
> I would not assume that shrimp not showing the white band are goners.



Thanks BRR! I could probably do the whole thing in a day and not have these guys in a barrel for a week. My corycat and snail would have to go in there as well if I'm going to dump all the water out. 



Want to make sure I got this:


Take all the substrate out. Put it all in a bucket with dechlorinated water and swish and rinse it around until it looks clear, right (empty and fill)? 

With the hang on back filter,should I empty the water that's in it or leave the water in there? I could always dump the filter water just before I refill the tank with fresh dechlorinated water.


I'll put everyone in a 5 gallon bucket with dechlorinated water, an airstone running with the heater in there set to 75f. Should I just rinse the plants in the tank water and throw them in? 



Everything else in there. Should I rinse in tank water and move it over to the 5 gallon or leave it in the 20 gallon?


Trying to figure the best way to do the drip acclimation Maybe empty most of the water out of the 5 gallon and then drip acclimate from the 20 gallon into the 5 gallon until the volume in the 5 gallon has doubled. Maybe half hour? But I would still need to refill the 20 gallon for whatever I drop out, so it's not going to be perfect. 


Oh, one other thing. When I put the shrimp in the 5 gallon do I need to add gh booster in there and bring it up to 6 if they're only going to be in there while I'm doing the water change in the 20 gallon?


Thanks for your help!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Your plan sounds pretty good. I'd be inclined to forego the heater unless your house is quite cool. In which case I might back that heater down to 70 or so, since the coils will produce heat after turning off and 3 gallons of water could spike pretty quickly. Leaving some tank water in the HOB shouldn't be an issue. As for whether you need to remove substrate completely could be determined by how dirty it is. If you can stir it with minimal darkening of the water after a few rinses in the tank it should be able to be left in there. But if it's packed with dirt and sludge, removing it might be the best way. Just get things clean. Might be a good opportunity to prune plant growth back some to lose old growth with algae and so forth.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

@asquirrel Failed molts can be caused by water that's too hard, water that's too soft, a diet too high in protein, large/fast water changes, or even a big change in water parameters when doing water changes.

Please stop thinking that the shells are too hard. Maybe they are too soft? Maybe it's something else.


If you are going to clean the tank, then yes, the holding container should have close to same parameters as the tank does. If you use water out of the tank, then you don't need to do anything to the holding container! It'll already be the same as what's in the tank.

You can get the tank parameters about same to what they were after cleaning the tank and plop them back in, or you could drip acclimate them back to the newer water. If you need to refill the tank after drip acclimating, then just make the new water the same as what's already in the tank!


Considering you have cherry shrimp, I'm leaning towards your water isn't hard enough and/or a diet related issue... so I don't necessarily think that replacing all the water is going to fix your issue... but who knows? Maybe it will.



I have personally seen cherry shrimp thriving in water with TDS over 600, and there are people out there that have them in water with a TDS within the ranges of 800-1,000... I can't say it's ideal, but the shrimp seem to be thriving?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Zoidburg said:


> Considering you have cherry shrimp, I'm leaning towards your water isn't hard enough and/or a diet related issue... so I don't necessarily think that replacing all the water is going to fix your issue... but who knows? Maybe it will.



I keep cherries with bees at 0 dKH, 5-6 GH and around 100 TDS and they seem to breed at a similar rate as those I keep in tap with inert gravel. If there is such a thing as too soft for their ability to thrive, I haven't seen it. Lots of people with ADA substrate keep cherry variants like this, and they aren't reporting breeding or molting issues as far as I'm aware. I am of the belief that as long as it is consistent, you can keep them in much harder or softer water than the care sheet's suggested range. 

I second the advice on a big clean out because they are dying off and there's not much left to do. Something is going terribly wrong in this tank for these usually hardy shrimp. They were almost surely being overfed, but the diet itself was on point, and there's no issue with Neos overeating, simply decay from uneaten food. And assuming this had been the case for a long time, I'm guessing that the substrate is thick with mulm at this point. How would this affect molting? I have no idea. But a reset to a clean environment can only help in my view.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks both of you again for your help. So I'll put everyone in a 5 gallon with the old tank water and an air stone while I do the complete clean of the 20. Once they're moved I'll take all the plants out after swishing them in the 20 gallon tank water. Put some into the 5 gallon. Take all the deco out in the same way. Then gravel what's left in the 20 until I can get it as low as possible. Then take the substrate that's left and put that in a 5 gallon. Swish around and dump a few times. Then put everything back in and refill with dechlorinated tap. 

I'll leave params the same unless you think I should do it differently. I'll bring GH back to 6 and temp to 75F. Put the 5mg bentonite clay in. few shavings of the wonder shell in. 6 drops of kents iodine. No excel in. put 15 gallons worth dosage of seachem flourish. Maybe put a fresh stick of cinnamon in there. I'll leave the regular clam shells in there that I bought last week. Hoped it would help but hasn't really done anything either way, other than the shrimp crawling over them and trying to figure out what the new addition is about. I love how curious they are. 

I've attached a link to my tank so you can see what I'm working with. The substrate doesn't look too bad. No uneaten food and it's brownish / green in color. Thinking that's a mixture of poop and algae. Other than the shrimp I need to move big chunk / mr. amano, speedracer (my black racer nerite) and emerald (my corycat). Reminds me of the movie, "Grind House Plant Terror" when the kid takes his scorpions, tarantulas and turtles and puts them all in the same tank because they had to leave their home in a hurry. 


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nuXuDcQv5pTFOOlMmhqvyS1VB0HZzo1Q

Going to check the chemistry tonight and schedule the Big Clean for tomorrow, unless something looks really off with the chemistry in which case I'll pull everyone tonight, put them in the bucket with fresh dechlorinated water overnight and do the clean tomorrow. I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

If it were my tank (and I realize it's not) I'd stop everything that you've been doing that most people don't in this tank. No clam shells (just going to raise KH), no iodine, no cinnamon stick, no wonder shell, no clay, nothing but your clean dechlorinated tap water, plants, and inert substrate. Eliminate these variables and get the shrimp acclimated to your water -not your water that has been altered with 40 different things, any of which may have gone bad or in some way be responsible for your issue. Cherry shrimp will live and thrive without all of these additives, and they may very well be doing more harm than good.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Gotcha. I'll not put any more additives in there when I do the water change. I just saw another dead adult. Same ring of death. I ended up buying all this extra stuff trying to chase down what was causing these deaths in the first place. You may be right that they are doing more harm than good. I'll just add the decholrinator and GH booster and see what happens.

I checked the water chemistry. Doesn't look good:

PH 7.6 - 7.8 (normal from last week)
Ammonia 0.25 (up from zero - probably from shrimp deaths and bodies not taken out right away).
Nitrites - 0
Nitrates - 5 okay. 
Phosphates - 2 (way up from last week of 0.25). Bad news I think b/c I've heard it interferes with calcium uptake.

https://skfaquatics.com/forum/forums/topic/4789-phosphates-vs-shrimps/

GH - 8 (up from 6 last week - thinking it might be the minerals / calcium from the shells)
KH - 2 

So plan is still to take 5 out tonight and do the complete purge tomorrow. Keep you all posted. Thanks again.


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

asquirrel said:


> Gotcha. I'll not put any more additives in there when I do the water change. I just saw another dead adult. Same ring of death. I ended up buying all this extra stuff trying to chase down what was causing these deaths in the first place. You may be right that they are doing more harm than good. I'll just add the decholrinator and GH booster and see what happens.
> 
> I checked the water chemistry. Doesn't look good:
> 
> ...



If anything phosphates will bump up some algae growth. This is a plus. Shrimp eat algae enthusiastically. Increase your lights on time an hour or so, to take advantage of this.



What you need to do is remove your various experiments and let the tank rest, adjust and stabilize for at least a month.


Neos will accept just about any water conditions as long as they can molt easily, there are feral populations living in creeks and ponds in Germany and Hungary, these are relatively tough little crustaceans in their own adapted environments. The water conditions in these waterways are probably more polluted than their home waters, yet they thrive.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey folks. Update for you. I took 5 gallons out on 2/25 and another 5 gallosn yesterday (2/26). So 10 total out of a 20 gallon tank. Probably 15 gallons total water in the tank if you consider the substrate and plants, etc. 

The original plan was to take everyone out and drain the tank yesterday, but then I noticed couple of shrimp fry when I was gravel. There's got to be more than a couple because when I checked my bucket I spent a 1/2 hour pulling tiny fry from the tank. I found three of them and put them in the tank. So given their size, I don't want to accidentally suck them up. Bad news is that I lost a beautiful red shrimp. No ring of death though.

GH was checked today and it's back to 6. What I don't know is how much of that GH is calcium and how much is magnesium. Remember I had the seashells in there, and I think seashells are 100% calcium. So my options as I can see are 1. do nothing and leave it as is. 2. Add seachem equilibrium, which has calcium, magnesium and potassium and boost the GH to say 7 or 8 with a a teaspoon or two). 3. Add epsom salt, which I believe is magnesium. I don't know the exact amount of that to put in though. I had read 1 tsp per 5 gallons. I'd probably just add only 1 tsp to be safe. 

I have a friend who got a hold of some dolomite and leaves that in his tank. Dolomite has calcium and magnesium but I can't find it anywhere. I've found garden lime made of dolomite, but I don't know if it would be good to have pellets or clouding up the water. Plus, I don't know what other ingredients are being used with the lime. 

So I'd love to hear what you folks think I should do at this point 1. nothing 2. bump up GH to x with seachem equilibrium to be sure there is magnesium 3. add epsom salt (just magnesium). 4. something else. 

Thanks!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Dolomite is a carbonate mineral -aka limestone, I wouldn't use it just because there's calcium and magnesium in it. We still don't know if CA and Mg weren't too *high* in this tank all along anyway. Your tap as it comes out of the faucet once supported shrimp, no? My strong feeling on this matter is to use your tap water and only your tap water. If tap is not supporting shrimp life and is unusable (it would take some bad tap water to be uninhabitable for Neos), I'd go with remineralizing RO and make it a consistent recipe. If anything you are considering is going to take your aquarium water away from your source water I'd encourage you to reconsider doing that.

I don't blame you a bit for holding off on the 100% water change with a new batch of babies seeing as that's about the best news you could have gotten right now. In the meantime I'd try small partial water changes adding nothing but dechlorinator if on city water. Use a brine shrimp net over the siphon if you can't keep a close eye on it. I'd spend the next month trying to get this tank as clean as possible and be stingy with food and resist the temptation to use additives. I think that is the most probable route to growing up this new generation.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hi BRR,

Thanks for your response. It's been so long since I've used straight tap I don't know for sure. Probably not, if I started buying additives. Lost two more last night. They just slow down and then stop and keel over. Two more adults. So at this point, just make sure that I'm keeping the GH at 6 and don't add anything else to the tank other than that? If it drops below that, then I'll add a bit of GH booster if you think that's the right thing to do. 

I'm being super stingy with the food. All day they just graze on biofilm. I'm now taking an 1/8 of a pellet of shrimp king (which appears to be mostly vegetable based) and a tiny bit of omega one veggie rounds for my cory cat. Doesn't seem to be doing much to stop the shrimp deaths though. I'm at a loss. I guess we'll see how long this death spiral goes on.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I doubt I'd even boost GH unless it was darn near 0. Eliminate all variables. It's unlikely that your Equilibrium was a bad batch/been contaminated/etc but most tap water that is safe to drink will support Neos if they adapt to it. And you have a new batch of babies which should withstand molting much more easily than adults. Get those acclimated to your tap water and your troubles_ should_ be behind you. This is one case where I'd advocate the use of activated carbon. If there is something beyond our ability to measure killing these shrimp, there's a good chance carbon will remove or reduce it. My advice would be frequent partial water changes with only tap +Prime, minuscule feeding, and as much activated carbon as will fit in your filter. If the shrimp aren't clustering on the food in 5 minutes, they didn't need to be fed that day. Fingers crossed for you, I feel that pit in my stomach just reading about your losses.


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## ererer (Apr 16, 2019)

Just a thought on the feeding issue, if it's something that you still haven't figured out yet. I have RCS and cardinals and corys in a community tank, and have similar problems with feeding that the shrimp eat everything in the tank (which is also a plus, even if their diet isn't always balanced). I find that my RCS will eat whatever food I throw in the tank often much sooner than the other tank inhabitants will. I can take advantage of this by throwing in an algae wafer first, and then the protein wafers after for the corys (which the shrimp still cleanup, but at least they got some algae in their diet first).


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Gothcha. I had put a tsp of GH boost in the tank yesterday to see if it was a mangesium deficiency. Should I do a 20% water change tomorrow?
When should I be doing the next water change?

I looked online, but I just wanted to make sure that activated carbon and activated charcoal are the same. 

With the carbon, can I put it in some pantyhose and stick it inside my hang on back filter?

Yeah, every morning I dread looking into the tank to see who is dead. Hard to believe I had 80+ shrimp in there at one time. I might be down to less than 10 adult shrimp at this point.

I had to look online and figure out what the activated carbon absorbs. I went here and it looks pretty comprehensive

https://www.thesprucepets.com/activated-carbon-in-the-aquarium-1380929

"adsorbs a number of dissolved contaminants such as chloramine and chlorine, tannins (which color the water), and phenols (which cause odors). It will help keep aquarium water from turning yellow over time."
"Activated carbon will adsorb many medications used to treat fish disease."
"Activated carbon will lose its effectiveness rather quickly if exposed to lots of debris from the aquarium."

"Doesn't absorb ammonia. Absorbs medication and tannins."
"it does not remove ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate."
"Heavy metals, such as lead or copper, are also not removed."


https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-equipment/89754-activated-carbon-kill-plants.html

"To answer your question, no, activated carbon will not directly kill your plants. It can adsorb DOCs, including chelated iron." DOC (dissolved organic compounds?)

So what are we looking for with the activated carbon? Is this stuff designed to catch fine particles, and you're thinking maybe the particles are affecting the shrimp? It's a good theory, since the params look okay. I mean, it could be some kind of copper or lead poisoning, but then it's more test kits and if that's the case, I'd be drinking this crap as well (even though I filter my water).

I also have GFO (granular ferric oxide). I know the GFO absorbs phosphates but I think the general opinion here is that we need the excess phosphates to create some algae for the shrimp, so I'll leave that out. 

What about my sponges? I have one sponge I've had in the HOB about three years now. Could it be that the sponge is infected with something? I put in a second, newer sponge in there to increase the bacteria colony after I started seeing occasional ammonia spikes (maybe from shrimp die off). But if there's bad stuff in the sponge, then it's transferred to the new sponge already. Should I pull both sponges and vigorously rinse the crap out of them?

I found a pretty good deal on the carbon at walmart:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Marinela...er-Media-For-aquariums/20769537?selected=true

How much should I buy? How many oz should I put into a filter sock? Maybe run it for a month (that's when I believe I'm supposed to change out) and see if there's an improvement? 

Thanks again for your help! I hope I can figure this out before my tank becomes a shrimp free zones. Strangely my Amano, big chunk, hasn't been affected. But unless they jump out of the tank, Amanos seem to have the constitution of a cockroach.

Bump: That's a good idea Ererer. I put the shrimp king food in first, because it's mostly kelp based and my corycat won't eat it. Heck, my RCS won't eat it unless they are really hungry. Then I drop in a small portion of Omega One Veggie rounds for my corycat. Sometimes I get lucky and the RCS don't vaccum up the veggie round piece before my corycat notices what's going on.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

A pantyhose leg works fine. Put as much as will fit in the filter. Poly Filter will remove metals far better, just figured you may have carbon on hand and it's cheap and effective. Marineland is a decent brand, stay away from off brands or any that looks shiny. I'd stop adding GH booster to this tank too.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> A pantyhose leg works fine. Put as much as will fit in the filter. Poly Filter will remove metals far better, just figured you may have carbon on hand and it's cheap and effective. Marineland is a decent brand, stay away from off brands or any that looks shiny. I'd stop adding GH booster to this tank too.





So maybe pick up a months worth (8oz) and see if there's any change with the deaths? 

What about squeezing or replacing the aquarium sponges?
Should I hold off on Poly Filter until I see how things go for a month with the charcoal?
If I should get Poly Filter too?


Am I looking for something to absorb the DOC or something to neutralized the stuff that's floating around so it's not harmful? B/C I'm looking online and I see Seachem Purigen neutralizes a lot of the above stuff, but doesn't act as a filter. 



The poly-filter. When you say Poly Filter are you talking the name brand? Because I go online and see a lot of people selling poly filter but there appears to be one that's a name brand. I don't have activated carbon or poly filter. Looks like poly filter does everything activated carbon does, plus more. Not a big fan of it removing phosphates though, b/c my plants need it. Poly-filter removes:


https://www.poly-bio-marine.com/
"In addition to outstanding capabilities for removing ammonia, it also removes heavy metals, harmful organics, all forms of phosphate and is without equal in the removal of medications after treatment."
"It turns blue with a copper salt, light green to aqua with free copper, orange with iron, red with aluminum, yellowish green with ammonia and white to beige to brown to black with the absorption of harmful organics." 


Then I see "filter floss.' No removal of any chemicals but does filter the water clan of DOC's. 



So more questions now. 1. Splurge and get the poly filter over the carbon? 2. Get the brand name poly-filter? Ebay has it for $8.20


vs. about $4 for 10 oz of the activated charcoal. 



https://www.walmart.com/ip/Marinela...er-Media-For-aquariums/20769538?selected=true


[Ebay Link Removed]


Thanks!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Yep, Poly Bio Marine is the company that makes Poly Filter. It's a weird white sheet of fiber that turns color as it absorbs. Carbon might be all you need unless it's a heavy metal. I keep both on hand, but don't regularly use either. If just getting one, I'd probably just get carbon. It's faster working and available everywhere. 

I use a lot of Purigen too but it's pricey. Technically rechargeable which offsets some of the cost, but I've never recharged it and used it with shrimp afterwards. Carbon is much faster at clearing water so intuitively one might surmise that it is also faster at removing things that we can't see. I've never done any tests to determine what is removed and at what rates with each, so am just going by hearsay and my own experiences using these products. All three remove some contaminants to some degree and seem to have strengths and weaknesses. I can't make that decision for you but don't think there's a truly wrong choice.

I have gone through periods of letting sponges stay dirty and periods of cleaning them constantly in shrimp tanks. I'm not sure one way is necessarily "better" than another. In your case, I'd be trying to get things clean so would at least squeeze them out well in some tank water. If they have seen their better days, by all means replace them. This is an old planted tank and shouldn't have a cycling issue from replacing a little mechanical media.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

I ended up going with the Poly-Filter. I figure at the guilt I'm feeling over their deaths, I'd hate to feel even worse if the rest died because I got the cheaper carbon and it was a metal which the Poly-Filter could have eliminated. 

It should arrive by March 5th. I'll keep you posted. Thanks again to everyone who is helping me with this situation.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I admire you choosing the one that pulls the most potential shrimp contaminants out of the water but time is also of the essence. Not to be an alarmist here, but I'm not sure you're going to have shrimp by March 5th. They're dying at a fast rate and you're down to 10. I'd go to Walmart, your local LFS, wherever you can get it close by and buy carbon and put it in that tank today if possible. An alternative would be to really hit the water changes every day but that's going to change water chemistry more abruptly and you're trying to avoid that. I'd mail you a box but there isn't time. You can be out the door for under 6 bucks for an Aqua Clear bag of it that we're crossing our fingers might save the colony.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

I went down to petsmart and picked some carbon up. I noticed the container didn't have a plastic on the cover and I'm hoping I didn't buy someone elses' return. I was going to use the bag that had the GFO in it, but no matter how many times I rinse it I can still see the GFO particles. I don't want to risk this being another problem in the tank (I was running it with the GFO in a pantyhose sock for a year). So now I'm trying to think of something else i can use for a sock until I can go to the dollar store and get more pantyhose. 

Could I use a cotton sock or cloth?

Edit - went to garage to find some pantyhose that I used for a hydroponics setup. Smelled like car exhaust. Then went and found pantyhose I use to keep my test tubes trapped for my water testing. Smelled a little like chemicals so I washed it in dishwasher detergent and rinsed the heck out of it (yeah, surfactants are bad for aquariums - I know. But any port in a storm at this point). Put one cup into the 20 gallon per this guy's statement: (1/2 cup per 10 gallons). Yeah, probably 15 gallons of water in the 20 gallon but better more than less I guess.

https://fishlab.com/activated-carbon/

Life is just a kick in the nuts. And never ending kicks when you are trying to save dying shrimp. Okay, I had to take two sponges out but I got the sock full of carbon in the hob filter. I'm just floating the sponges on the tank floor.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Please only add GH to new incoming water - not to tank water.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hi Zoidberg,

I add GH booster to the tank after right I've changed the water. Why should I not add it directly into the tank? I'm not adding anymore GH booster to the tank unless it's super low (like 3). 

BTW, I checked the tank this morning and found another dead shrimp. Good news is that my amano shrimp was happily eating it. He dragged it to the front of the tank to let me know the dead shrimp aren't going to waste in case he has anything to say about it.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

If you have new water... and you mix the new water to 6 GH, then you add it to the tank.... 

One, this is giving you more stability between water changes

Two, it's giving you more control over your tank parameters


By adding it directly to the tank without pre-mixing it first, you are causing more instability issues.

If you are sitting at 6 GH in the tank and you want to do a water change of, say, 2 gallons, or 5 gallons, then you mix up the new water to 6 GH. This means your parameters are not fluctuating and going all over the place.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

What I do is a water change. Then I take some of the tank water out and put it inside a mason jar. Then I add the GH booster to it and shake the heck out of it. Then I add the water in the mason into the tank. Is that okay?


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Hoping the carbon can save them. There's no such thing as "too much" carbon so don't worry about that. What is your GH out of the tap? If your water will allow, a perfect scenario would be to just use tap with no additives for a while.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hi BRR!

I haven't checked the GH out of the tap but when I do the next water change I'll check it for you. How long should I wait between water changes? How much should I be taking out? 10%? 20%? I did find some black specs in the aquarium this morning which I hope isn't carbon. It would be amazing if it was, since I don't know how it would have gotten out of the pantyhose. I don't think the carbon would harm the guys though. 

When the poly comes in this week, should I just put it loose in the aquarium since I'm already running the carbon inside the HOB filter? Thanks!


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

I'd not use the GH booster for a while, and hopefully ever going forward. Your levels may be fine anyway, it only takes a minute to test. Something is killing your shrimp and I don't suspect it is your tap water. My thinking is that it's something on the list of additives you've been using or a combination of them has made the water way off from what they require to successfully molt. A water change regimen of 5 gallons a day replacing with straight dechlorinated tap would seem reasonable. You need to get it in line as quickly as possible while you still have living shrimp.

A little loose carbon isn't going to hurt anything. I've had bags rip open and it's probably still mixed in with my gravel in several tanks. Carbon or Poly Filter will work if there's any flow at all near them. The more, the better but they'll remove contaminants by just being in the water.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

I wouldn't be able to do it today but I can take out 5 tomorrow. What would be the minimum GH in the tank before I add booster to it? How long should i keep the 5 gallon daily water changes up for? Until I get the poly next week? Do you think those daily water changes would hurt the shrimp with constantly needing to molt (I had heard the WC cause the shimp to molt). Thanks!

Oh, how deep of a gravel vac should I be doing? Deep into substrate or just skim the surface? If I go too deep the plants won't have enough poop to feed off of.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

asquirrel said:


> I wouldn't be able to do it today but I can take out 5 tomorrow.


As soon as you can would be my recommendation.



asquirrel said:


> What would be the minimum GH in the tank before I add booster to it?


I'd leave it alone if anything above 0 GH.



asquirrel said:


> How long should i keep the 5 gallon daily water changes up for? Until I get the poly next week?


The supposition here is that your water isn't allowing shrimp to molt. 25% for 5 days seems reasonable to get it near your tap.



asquirrel said:


> Do you think those daily water changes would hurt the shrimp with constantly needing to molt (I had heard the WC cause the shimp to molt). Thanks!


Perhaps, but we know that they are dying under the current conditions. 




asquirrel said:


> Oh, how deep of a gravel vac should I be doing? Deep into substrate or just skim the surface? If I go too deep the plants won't have enough poop to feed off of.


With baby shrimp in there you are going to have to be careful. Had those not appeared I'd suggest cleaning the tar out of it. The vast majority of aquatic plants will do just fine feeding from the water column, fish poop is not required for plant life.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Hey BRR!

Just tested hardness from tap.

GH from tap is 4 when it starts to turn from yellow to green. 5 it's more green than yellow. 6 would probably be solid green.

KH from tap is 2 when it starts to turn from blue to yellow. If I added another drop I'm sure it would be solid yellow, so I'd say KH is 3.


With the test kit, at least as to KH it has to be solid yellow. Didn't say that for GH.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Sweet. Barring trace metals or something we are unaware of, you have darn near perfect water for Neos right out of the tap. I truly believe that if you can get that old water out and new in at a speed that they can acclimate to safely, you'll at very least raise up these babies and be able to restart the colony. I'd wager that a lot more shrimp die from things we add than from needing us to add things! Don't feel bad though, we've all done it. I had the epiphany when my tanks full of fish I was breeding had cull shrimp breeding better and growing larger in than the ones I was constantly mucking around in trying to chase the care sheet parameters.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

asquirrel said:


> What I do is a water change. Then I take some of the tank water out and put it inside a mason jar. Then I add the GH booster to it and shake the heck out of it. Then I add the water in the mason into the tank. Is that okay?


Water going into the tank should always be at the desired parameters.



Okay, great, you have 6 GH in tank! But then you need to do a water change and your water is at 4 GH. You might lower the GH to 5 after doing a water change. But now, the GH is too low... so you raise it back up to 6 GH. Your constantly messing around with water parameters each time you do this.... some shrimp are fine and can handle these constant changes in parameters.



However, if you want to rule out problems, then you need to keep the parameters stable... which means that all new incoming water is at the desired GH every single water change.


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## Blue Ridge Reef (Feb 10, 2008)

Zoidburg said:


> If you want to rule out problems, then you need to keep the parameters stable... which means that all new incoming water is at the desired GH every single water change.


Which is almost always simply using the source water you have. I've checked every mark on the care sheets in my tanks of prized shrimp -and they've thrived at varying degrees. But dang the culls of the same go mad in tanks I hardly even feed, let alone test over and fuss about. I produce michlings and CRS like crazy as Caridina go but can't get an orange eyed blue tiger baby for love or money -and I have offered lots of each. Swear I should just throw them in my white cloud 125! I'd probably be overrun with them this time next year.


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## Zoidburg (Mar 8, 2016)

Blue Ridge Reef said:


> Which is almost always simply using the source water you have. I've checked every mark on the care sheets in my tanks of prized shrimp -and they've thrived at varying degrees. But dang the culls of the same go mad in tanks I hardly even feed, let alone test over and fuss about. I produce michlings and CRS like crazy as Caridina go but can't get an orange eyed blue tiger baby for love or money -and I have offered lots of each. Swear I should just throw them in my white cloud 125! I'd probably be overrun with them this time next year.


I already know shrimp die in my tap water! So it's out of the question to use... lol Well, not that it can't be used... it's just not suitable for them unless minerals are added. Just a tad softer than @asquirrel water.


And yeah... I've come across a few people who say their best tanks are the ones they do the least with... meanwhile, if I do that, the shrimp might live but they don't thrive and breed...

Would be great to figure out why some tanks thrive with the least amount of care/bad parameters/overstocked with fish where as others that are considered to have good parameters, good setup, etc don't thrive.


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Update for you folks. I had no shrimp deaths up until today. 1 death. Looks like a half grown shrimp. Someone ate his head and left the rest. Right now I have just beads and charcoal in the HOB filter. The two sponges were squeezed and rinsed thoroughly and then put in the tank. I think the last deaths were 2/28, so I thought I had the problem licked with the charcoal. Going to take the charcoal and put that in the tank as well. It will be sitting in the pantyhose on the substrate. Going to take the polyfilter, fold it as many times as it takes to put in the HOB filter and stick it in.

Yesterdays water spec measurements were ph 7.6/7.8 ammonia 0 nitrites 0 nitrates 0-5, phosphates 2, gh 6, kh 3. Going to do another 5 gallon w/c today and see if that helps. Saw a huge molt from the amano shrimp. Shrimp seem to be pretty active and have plenty of biofilm. Tank is slippery on the inside.

Edit - I think I might have just seen a baby float on by. Current was taking him really fast so I don't know if he's dead or not.

Edit again - more bad news. I found "Big Chunker" (giant amano shrimp) dead today in the Java Moss. Not sure if he got trapped or what. I saw a big molt of his on the substrate so I thought things were going well. I normally don't see him until the morning. I saw him this morning. Now he's dead this evening.

Also found another dead RCS in my flame moss. 

So total deaths today. 2 young adult RCS. Maybe one juvenile RCS. 1 dead amano. On a brighter note, my plants are looking better. Must be the extra nitrates from the dead shrimp


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## asquirrel (Jun 28, 2015)

Two more dead today. One adult RCS and one fry. I see on the bottom of the adult there seems to be like a red blood at the bottom. I hope those weren't eggs.  


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1u9xZtridTIwcxqCejCa-Kc-CV7TaQfTG


I'm thinking at this point I was going to scoop whatever shrimp I can find and put them in a 1/2 gallon container of dechlorinated water and java moss. Put an airstone in there for circulation. use a valve on the airstone exhaust so the shrimp don't get blown around the container. I don't have a heater small enough for that 1/2 gallon. 

I was going to put a sponge in there but the problem is I don't know what is causing the deaths. Maybe there is some kind of harmful bacteria on the sponge? 

Whatever it is, the carbon and the polyfilter haven't done anything to help.

I'm thinking while these guys are housed I can empty the tank. My corey cat will be stressed pulling him out. How do I get my black racer nerite off the glass? 

I'm also thinking that everything could be contaminated. I could empty the tank and use h2o2 on the glass, then take the substrate out and rinse it a few times in a 5 gallon bucket. keep one sponge and rinse it in clean water (probably wouldn't lose much beneficial bacteria). Then there's the ceramic beads. Do the same thing with them. Throw the old sponge out. But again, there could be something harmful in the sponge or beads. Or on the plants.

I'm thinking of nuking the tank. How much h2o2 would I need to nuke the tank? Or how about bleach? Going to remove the plants and life forms obviously. But take the sponges out. 

Then I was going to take 3/4 of a bottle h2o2 and dump it into the aquarium with the substrate Stir the stuff around. But I still need beneficial bacteria. Do I take a handful of the substrate, put it off to the side and don't nuke that? If I do, then I run the risk of whatever crap might be killing the shrimp growing back. 

What about bleaching or using h2o2 on the sponges to purify them? One of the sponges are in great shape and I'd have to throw it out.


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