# 12 gal Long with the best filter in the world!



## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Been a while since I was on this site! Life is busy but that doesn't mean you can't have a planted tank! Goal is to have a nice looking tank with as little work as possible. Lots of left over stuff from before thrown together. Filter not needed right? Wish me luck!

Mr. Aqua 12 gal long
substrate: Mix of ADA aquasoil, Mr.Aqua soil, another pretend Aquasoil, aquasolum humate and flourite.
Plants: cultured S. Repens, dwarf hairgrass, Limnophila sessiliflora (i think), bleached anubias nana petite
Light: current USA adjustable LED, at *50%* power and 6 hours/day, ?PARS?,shooting for med-low light. 30 inch i think
Inhabitants: 10+ cherry shrimp, 1 amano. 6 pygmy cories and one oto. No Snails! No Mosses!
Filter: Plants, plants, plants, plants
Fertilizer: Dry N,P,K,Trace once a week, a pinch of N, a little of everything else.(1/3 pinch N, 1/9 pinch K,1/9 pinch P and 1/18 pinch trace and iron). Added a pinch of bee shrimp GH boost. Added half dose mid week.
Ferts started 1 month in. Probably should of started at 3wks.
Water Change: None at the beginning, None in the middle, and none at the end. Top off with Walmart filtered water.
Co2: none, maybe excel occasionally
Others: Biopro CRS bacteria (I hope it'll cycle the tank faster), earth juice catalyst(have no idea if any good). 5 seiryu stones
Cleaning: Mr. Clean magic pad the walls once every 2 weeks. No vacuum. 

Sep 16,2017: WOW A YEAR HAS GONE BY! Well the tank is still going! Took out S.repens. added blyxa japonica. added a few dwarf cory, microdervario kubotai, and a sparkling gourami from other tanks. shrimps all gone except for amano. added osmocote plus 6months in or so. Slow growth but that's what I want! Again minimal maintenance 

Pictures below:
1. start June 23,16
2. July 9
3. July 23
4. Aug 14,2016
5. Sep 16,2017


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

I wish you the best of luck!!!!

From personal experience, you are going to need it 

IME, aquasoil + stagnant water + high-light + no Co2 + top-off only = a smelly messy slow death of plants and brings an onslaught of algae. You don't have the plant mass needed to act as a filter either, load that tank up till you can't see the substrate. 

Also, you may need to add some gh booster to your filtered water. If I'm not mistaken, those filtered water machines are RO/DI machines. Should be as close to 0tds as possible. You will have to add minerals to the water to reconstitute the mineral content that fish and plants need. 

Even though you aren't using a conventional filter, which is perfectly fine, I would consider getting some small power heads just to create some flow within the tank especially since your tank is 3 feet long. Your plants will really benefit from it. Your ferts will never fully disperse throughout the whole water column without at least intermittent current. You could even get an external pump and use nice lily pipes, just for flow and to make it look nicer to look at. 

Without using a conventional filter, you are solely relying on your plants and substrate as your bio-media (I leave out glass surfaces because we tend to clean those religiously in this hobby). The reason we use bio-media in a filter is to have a stable reliable home for the benificial bacteria that regulates the nitrogen cycle. You are going to need flow for that beneficial bacteria to thrive. Beneficial bacteria will still develop in the substrate and on plants, but without water current and the corresponding plant mass needed to intake the nutrients and minerals from the water column, there really isn't much going on to sustain the collony of benificial bacteria other than dying plants and what you would be introducing through the bottled bacteria product. 

I am by no means an expert and applaud all who experiment, it's what advances the hobby and I am also one of those people who like to experiment but IME, I don't see this working out to well without absolutely stuffing your tank full of mostly faster growing plants with low Co2 demand to start the tanks life.

The more and more plants you have that can thrive in this type of environment (low to no flow, medium to high nutrient exchange), the little environment you've created will begin to develop a respiratory system, breathing oxygen at night, and Co2 throughout the day. Relying on what oxygen it expells during the day to oxygenate the water enough during the night to be able to expell enough carbon dioxide into the water for when the plants begin to take in the Co2 during the day and the cycle repeats itself daily. Thus, the respiratory system of our planted tanks.

That respiratory system is what's going to help determine the sustainability of your setup and a little bit of flow and surface tension will help that process out tremendously. 

That's also how nano-reef tanks can be sustained with just proper flow and enough rock to support the colony of beneficial bacteria with no help from conventional filtration. Replace the live-rock in this situation with plants for a freshwater tank and you essentially have the same setup. But water current is critical for this especially if you don't plan on doing water changes. 

Current also helps evaporate water more quickly therefore requiring more frequent top-offs introducing fresh water more frequently, basically topping-off a weekly water changes worth of water throughout the week due to daily evaporation.

So long story short, get a bunch more plants and highly consider some sort of flow and what it takes to remineralize filtered water. I've heard a lot of shrimp keepers use SaltyShrimp. A standard gh booster should work just fine also. 

OR...do weekly, maybe bi-weekly water changes and you could probably disregard everything I said minus the gh booster part. 

Regardless of what you do start with a low amount of light, if you can, and slowly increase the intensity throughout the course of a month or two. Starting with too much light in any kind of setup is asking for algae. 

Good luck and keep us posted, I think there's a lot to learn with your project!


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Thanks for feed back!

I agree high light will cause algae. Led adjustable and I'm using 50% of the led brightness.

I have seiryu stones so should raise gh,kh, I hope. Will supplement if needed.

NO flow! No filter! Part of test, have many smaller tanks with NO flow. We'll see how big I can push it. 

I don't buy the argument you won't get nutrients to spread. If it dissolves then it will diffuse through tank. Plants don't use it fast enough to prevent diffusion, imo.

Agree need more plants. After work plant shopping.....

Thanks


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

I've done this without soil, and the stagnant water created a biofilm that I believe actually helped the plants by hold more CO2. They pearled daily. I used occasional Leaf Zone, or Aqueon Plant Food, and that is all, besides the fish. I also did 90% water changes weekly. Without the water changes, the plants melted. So much light (I had ultra high light, 12.5watts/gallon for comparison) really pushed those plants to the edge, and they used up the nutrients in the water quickly. Major water changes were key for me.

P.S. Only labyrinth fish can survive this stagnant type of situation from my experience. Belly breathers like otos and cory's also survived my experiment. Long term I'm not sure they would.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

With out soil? High light? And I assume no filter, Now that is a experiment!


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

I think there are two major flaws in the lazy approach. Fresh water in nature is fresh because of rain and although partial water changes may be reduced in heavily planted fish tanks, they are still a requirement. They both remove old stale, poluted water and add/replenish much needed minerals that fish and plants need. Water circulation is also of benefit to fish and plants. Circulation promotes nutrient distribution, prevents thermal gradients and creates surface gas exchange. 
I think you're liable to create a stinky swamp tank. IF you put fish in this tank and see them gasping for air at the surface, please rethink your setup.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Hopefully no swamp but Definitely a possibility but we'll see!

I usually wait a week or so for the tank to cycle and ADA ammonia to get used up but due to work, I'm accelerating the timeline.

Added anubias nana petite, one cherry shrimp, 10 golden neon, 1 green tetra, 1 rainbow fish male. Female didn't look good after transit and died  . So far no jumpers or signs of gasping or distress.

Holding off on ferts for a bit as well.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

*2.5 weeks in*

So about two and half weeks in and plants are growing well. Trim and replanted a few repens. Nana wilted a bit likely bc of bleach wash but New leaves are growing.

Unfortunately had an outbreak of ick and took all fish out. Added 10+ red cherries and they are doing fine. Added one amano shrimp.

Likely just keep tank empty of fish for a few weeks. Learned my lesson and need to quarantine future fish.

Still no fertilizers. No swamp.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Your lacking picture says another story to me


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

chun55555 said:


> ..
> 
> I usually wait a week or so for the tank to cycle and ADA ammonia to get used up but due to work, I'm accelerating the timeline.
> 
> ...


So the tank is a few days old, no water changes, you have ADA AS and you add fish/shrimp. Sorry, but that just sounds like a cruel joke to me.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Ha, not trying to fool anyone. Just New to the new site and I just figured out how to load from phone. Picture below! As expected Just a little growth as you can see.

Shrimps doing well. As for fish, ick attack, so you could argue they were stressed. Likely too early putting them. 

Hmmm lots of negative vibes. Not sure why.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

chun55555 said:


> Hmmm lots of negative vibes. Not sure why.


Can't speak for everybody, but you're tossing shrimp and fish into a uncycled tank. Then you used Aqua soil which causes ammonia spikes as that too needs to be cycled. On top of all of that, you're not doing water changes, shrimp need clean water, ect...

So yeah, the negative vibes you're feeling are there.


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## The Big Buddha (Jul 30, 2012)

Have to remember to check this thread for an update in a few months....

.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

chun55555 said:


> Ha, not trying to fool anyone. Just New to the new site and I just figured out how to load from phone. Picture below! As expected Just a little growth as you can see.
> 
> Shrimps doing well. As for fish, ick attack, so you could argue they were stressed. Likely too early putting them.
> 
> Hmmm lots of negative vibes. Not sure why.


Sorry I came across negatively 

HOC and Smooch gave good reasons, hehe actually way better than mine.

I can tell you this method, unless you listen to advices such as wc, with your amount of lighting its not going to work yo. I see your picture its not fully focused in, i see withering growth, yes i do see growth, but it is stunted growth or small growth.

I can tell your hiding things mang


Maybe can help more (WHAT ARE YOUR GOALS BEHIND THIS)

For fauna sake do not add anything in right now. Karma comes around in the fish world too on how you createz a world for them. I learned this the hard way.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Wow some really suspicious people.... Of course no matter what I post, you'll just say I'm cheating some how. but here goes.
I think blurriness was from the compression during upload from my phone. Here are hopefully better pics loaded from computer.

Again, nana petite leaves are burnt b/c I did a bleach bath on them before hand.

Goals are simple, a nice planted tank with as little work as possible. I am going for slow growth. I don't see any stunting. I have been doing small jars and 3-5 gallon tanks this way for a while and I'm seeing if it will work for larger tank.

Remember if you live your life with biases you will only see your own bias.

If you really cared about providing the best life for your fish then don't buy any. No matter what you do it won't be as good as nature. What we do is intrinsically selfish and we support an industry that takes many of these fish and fauna out of the wild for our own purpose. 

Also I'm not really asking for advice... Just sharing my tank journal.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

chun55555 said:


> Wow some really suspicious people.... Of course no matter what I post, you'll just say I'm cheating some how. but here goes.
> Okay here are more pics. I think it was the compression during upload from my phone. Here are hopefully better pics loaded from computer.
> 
> Again, nana petite leaves are burnt b/c I did a bleach bath on them before hand.
> ...


Anger can lead to some pretty stupid comments. 





"Remember if you live your life with biases you will only see your own bias."

this could be true, i am biased very biased in a way of doing things when it comes to a planted tank, very flawed and human in my opinion

captivity vs. nature vs survival of the fittest of species
i do not agree with your statement but no need to back it up here


Lets get onto the magic and your new photos. Your growth is amazing, I must say, without co2, without water changes and with that lighting intensity. Are you doing any manual maintenance?

This is all the initiation process, if you've got something gold, its going to be depicted and tried proven wrong. You climb that hill and you will further this hobby..


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

I wasn't offering advice. There was confusion regarding the negative vibes. I provided a explanation. All should be crystal clear now.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I actually thought it was a pretty cool setup. I've never been a believer that you need tremendous flow in a planted aquarium, since once the tank is established the bulk of the filtration IMO is in the tank not in the tiny filter. I never understood the need for extra powerheads to distribute co2 and ferts. I've run big tanks on a 1x turnover long-term. Not that some more would hurt anything, but not necessary if your doing the right things. 

Problem I had is when you put fish in a tank with AS, no water changes after a few days. It's not theory it's fact that those fish will probably suffer and/or die. In a planted tank I also never understood the need to rush fish in. Get the plants growing and healthy, where you want them and when things are looking good put the fish in. I think the fish will be available to buy when the tank is ready.


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## easternlethal (Feb 13, 2016)

I have a low tech low light tank with no water changes. literally just a bucket of water. plants can do alright in it if you leave it long enough. It does exist in nature in the form of lakes and ponds which have no more tributaries and rely on rain. Those water bodies have no flow either only wind.

but water is dense and h2o molecules make it hard for molecules to disperse. especially near the substrate and around plants. that's why the water separates into layers with different characteristics.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Well I do agree the fish went in a little too early and earlier than I would of liked and the ick worsen the problem. I still suspect fish would of been fine if no ick since the shrimp are fine. But I would lose that argument b/c of this past experience. 

Well, continue on with the experiment with no changes to the underlying formula. will update in a few weeks.


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

I think you have a pretty good chance of success. I personally would have erred on the side of more plants, at least to start with, especially floaters.

Otherwise, I have made some pretty one-sided remarks before on a similar set-up some years ago. What got me thinking was the reply from that OP: "don't knock it before you try it". So I did. And now I have a couple of tanks with no filters, no heaters, and a WC once in a blue moon, top-offs only. My journals on those tanks are still somewhere on TPT.

Have fun and please keep this updated.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

So I know there are a lot of opinions on this, but I do think it's possible to have a low maintenance tank. Personally I have found that going low light / low tech is the best way to accomplish that. My 30g and even my 5g require VERY little maintenance. I top off the water when it gets low from evaporation and I do a 25-30% water change once or twice a year. I have eco complete substrate in my 30g and river gravel in my 5g. I have mostly heavy root feeders (crypts) and slow growing plants that prefer life attached to DW or rocks (anubias, java fern, bolbitis). I never had luck with stems in my setups, but that doesn't mean it isn't doable. I add fresh root tabs when the crypts let me know it's time (the leaves look yellow). I have 2 almost 9 year old amano shrimp and a similar aged black neon tetra along with an oto that lived about 6 or 7 years and some pencilfish that are a few years old at this point. So I know it's a healthy environment for the fish too and (some) shrimp too (I say some because I can't seem to keep RCS alive). I have never done a stagnant tank, though I know plenty of folks do nano jars with no filtration or water circulation so I can see it being possible to scale that up, though it may be difficult especially to provide enough oxygen for the fish. Personally I use a little in tank filter in the 5g and powerhead driven sponge filtration in the 30g. There is also a small internal filter in the 30g but that's more there to make sure I have extra cycled filter media if I ever need to set up an emergency hospital / QT tank or want to jump start the cycle on a new tank. I also have airstones of some kind in all of my tanks to help with circulation and surface agitation and it does seem to help the plants (I have had air pumps stop working without my notice and I don't notice until the plants start looking bad, so for whatever reason, a simple air stone seems to help the plants, and many fish love to play in the bubbles which is always fun to watch. Anyway, the point is, super low maintenance tanks are definitely doable. 

That all being said, my tanks were not (almost) no maintenance from the day they were set up. I had to do water changes until the cycle was well established. I have no idea if it will take more or less time to cycle a tank with no flow though, so it might be a good idea to keep an eye on your ammonia and nitrite levels and do water changes if they get high as it is not really great for anything in the tank as far as I understand it. I know you weren't looking for advice just journaling your experience, and I m curious how it progresses, but as you are looking for a low-no maintenance tank I figured I would chime in that i am interested in your experiment (though, I would request you wait to add fish again until the tank is cycled) and give you my 2 cents regarding what has worked for me in terms of looooowwww maintenance tanks  Good luck!


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## Mchlgriffith (Jul 11, 2016)

I'm very interested to see how this goes, it could be a sweet shrimp tank if it works out I'll give it a go with a 5 gallon tank I have laying around


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## Mike16T (Jun 13, 2016)

Nice tank! ^_^

What kind of legs on the fixture? I have Current USA fixture also and would love to use those kind of legs. 

--Mike


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

This is good stuff. Change it up!  I like it, but then again, I actually did it....without the soil as I stated earlier. It's the dry start method without the 'dry'. :wink2:
Keep up with those large water changes, and my bet is you will have continued success.

The plants will tell you what they need that doesn't come with the tap water or soil. You just have to be watchful.

More light = smaller leaves
Less light = larger leaves
More ferts = faster growth/algae
Less ferts = slower growth/less algae

This is over-generalizing, but still a good guide for my tanks. All of what I said above will change once the plants establish and fill the tank. That is when less ferts causes more algae, for obvious reason. So then you would need to lessen light and slow things down, which has never worked for me long term I think because the amount of root structure created demands more light and ferts. So unless you trim your roots, you may need to add more light and ferts eventually, or roots will rot and the tank will fail. Starting out with high light sort of forces you to stay with high light for those reasons. I've never heard of people trimming roots very often in aquariums. They usually cut the top of the plant, and re-plant it and throw out the old roots and all. This way, you don't end up with so much root structure that there is no way you can supply enough energy to them without causing imbalance within the whole tank.

Once the plants have grown to maturity and fill the tank (if it doesn't fall apart before then), adding more fish for fertilizer can be a good idea, rather than adding more bottled ferts.

Currently I have started a tank with LED's way above the surface, about 1.5 feet or more. So my water wisteria is growing very slowly, and growing larger leaves (less lacy looking). The stem plants are reaching up to the light and growing long, not bushy. Everything is in slow motion really.

I will bring the lights closer to the surface as the plants establish. Or not...


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## GrampsGrunge (Jun 18, 2012)

New approaches to creating a successful environment for growing aquatic plants, I think everyone would be behind this in support, not everyone does EI dosing and hightech CO2 tanks and this is the low-tech forum

I'm running a four gallon stainless steel framed antique without a substrate, just a couple of pieces of driftwood and a tiny HOB with emergent moss and a terrestrial moneywort. It has a very slow turn over, less than 20 GPH. It has a 23 watt, 6500K spiral cfl in a reflector hood that it's sharing with my 2.5 gallon nano lowtech tank.

The light fixture is about a foot or so above both tanks.

So far, being a low light experiment, it's slowly growing both mosses and the strange little ferns I find locally in the stream next to our house. This is a native plant, cool water tank that averages about 58~65 degrees. I have a little bit of green fuzz algae that slowly going away as the mosses fill in.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

GrampsGrunge said:


> New approaches to creating a successful environment for growing aquatic plants, I think everyone would be behind this in support, not everyone does EI dosing and hightech CO2 tanks and this is the low-tech forum
> 
> I'm running a four gallon stainless steel framed antique without a substrate, just a couple of pieces of driftwood and a tiny HOB with emergent moss and a terrestrial moneywort. It has a very slow turn over, less than 20 GPH. It has a 23 watt, 6500K spiral cfl in a reflector hood that it's sharing with my 2.5 gallon nano lowtech tank.
> 
> ...


OP isn't low light at all...
I would like to bash this system as much as i can until i see success.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Mike sorry for delay. The legs were option when I bought led from big A. online pet store few years ago so I don't know if they are still available.

Again this is a low med light system. Didn't get true Par, using eye and 50% led.

Thanks all for comments, esp OVT read many ur posts. Will post pic next week or so.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

StrungOut said:


> I would like to bash this system as much as i can until i see success.


That's not really a very nice attitude. But it reminds me why I stopped being so active on this forum. When I first started here this forum was all about help, support, encouragement, and overall, it was friendly. Wanting to bash someone's system? That's just mean, it's rude, it's unnecessary, and it's totally against everything I (and others that I know that have also stopped participating here) liked about this forum. Unfortunately, I started seeing a lot more people with your attitude as the years progressed, it's very sad to see so many prefer to be rude than supportive just because it's not the way you prefer to run your tanks.

Chun - I apologize for hijacking your thread with my rant, the rudeness just really frustrates me.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Karackle said:


> That's not really a very nice attitude. But it reminds me why I stopped being so active on this forum. When I first started here this forum was all about help, support, encouragement, and overall, it was friendly. Wanting to bash someone's system? That's just mean, it's rude, it's unnecessary, and it's totally against everything I (and others that I know that have also stopped participating here) liked about this forum. Unfortunately, I started seeing a lot more people with your attitude as the years progressed, it's very sad to see so many prefer to be rude than supportive just because it's not the way you prefer to run your tanks.
> 
> Chun - I apologize for hijacking your thread with my rant, the rudeness just really frustrates me.



Bump:


StrungOut said:


> OP isn't low light at all...
> I would like to bash this system as much as i can until i see success.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Karackle said:


> ...it's very sad to see so many prefer to be rude than supportive just because it's not the way you prefer to run your tanks....


Generally speaking I would agree with you, but not in this case. If your read (maybe you did) the whole thread. The conditions that the OP was using to setup the tank are not very favorable to livestock and/or algae control. It's not like he decided to do a dirt tank, low tech, hi-tech and other members can support it. 

He put fish inside of a week into an AS-based tank with no water changes, medium light. The maker of Aqua Soil strongly advises against that let alone most members here who have used AS. It appears most (if not all) of the fish died). Not doing water changes especially with the use of AS will also most likely create some pretty nasty algae development which is probably developing as we speak.

Why be supportive of this? The majority of posts were negative toward the OP for good reason. If a experienced person gives his/her blessing it would only encourage newbies to try this with probably very limited success and not stay with the hobby.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

If OP did this experiment with no critters, that would have been fine. But killing fish in the name of simply to make a point of how lazy a person can be when it comes to keeping a tank is not acceptable. 

Being lazy=killing fish. Bravo! Point was made.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

houseofcards said:


> Generally speaking I would agree with you, but not in this case. If your read (maybe you did) the whole thread. The conditions that the OP was using to setup the tank are not very favorable to livestock and/or algae control. It's not like he decided to do a dirt tank, low tech, hi-tech and other members can support it.
> 
> He put fish inside of a week into an AS-based tank with no water changes, medium light. The maker of Aqua Soil strongly advises against that let alone most members here who have used AS..


You've got a good point there. I never use a substrate, so for me, it seemed similar to one of my tanks. I don't use filters either. So my fish go in as soon as I fill, because I do major water changes. I didn't realize the soil was so toxic. 

Ok, I take it back @StrungOut ! As long as it was about the fish, not the planted method. Because the method is one I'm in favor of experimenting with. :smile2:

Bump:


Smooch said:


> If OP did this experiment with no critters, that would have been fine. But killing fish in the name of simply to make a point of how lazy a person can be when it comes to keeping a tank is not acceptable.
> 
> Being lazy=killing fish. Bravo! Point was made.


Hopefully this will teach everyone not to add fish right away to a soil that is toxic to fish until the plants and filter are established and cycled.


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## Karackle (Dec 11, 2007)

houseofcards said:


> Generally speaking I would agree with you, but not in this case. If your read (maybe you did) the whole thread. The conditions that the OP was using to setup the tank are not very favorable to livestock and/or algae control.


Actually I did, and commented previously, including in my comments that even almost no maintenance tanks don't begin that way and require frequent water changes until cycled to keep ammonia levels low. I agree it was too early to add the fish, and I think OP also realized that and therefore removed the fish from the situation and is hopefully treating the ich. 



houseofcards said:


> Why be supportive of this? The majority of posts were negative toward the OP for good reason. If a experienced person gives his/her blessing it would only encourage newbies to try this with probably very limited success and not stay with the hobby.


I'm not supportive of putting fish in a toxic environment, and am glad the OP realized the mistake. But you can disagree without being a jerk. That's my problem. You can give advice about what not to do without being a jerk. That doesn't mean you are encouraging bad fishkeeping practices or giving your blessing to continue them that way.

As for the algae, OP hasn't posted anything about algae issues, and to be honest, not everyone cares if their tank has some algae, that's a matter of preference and in no way a sign of an unhealthy tank or critter unfriendly tank. 



Smooch said:


> But killing fish in the name of simply to make a point of how lazy a person can be when it comes to keeping a tank is not acceptable.
> 
> Being lazy=killing fish. Bravo! Point was made.


This. This what I'm talking about. There is no need to be so rude about the situation. OP already admitted it was a mistake and the fish went in too early. No need to continue to be nasty about it, but that doesn't mean you are condoning or encouraging putting fish in a tank with a lot of ammonia. 
Also, as sort of a side note, to the best of our knowledge, the fish are not necessarily dead. Ich does not have to be a death sentence and they are no longer in the tank. So assuming they are dead is jumping to a conclusion. But that's besides the point. 

All I'm saying is there is a middle ground. You can make it clear you disagree with something someone did without being a jerk about it. Instead, explain why you think it was a bad plan, and what they could do differently in the future. 

I know when I was starting on this forum I was much more likely to dismiss comments that were hostile. But if someone took the time to explain to me why they thought I had not made the best choice and what I could do differently, and were nice about it, then I would listen. That's what I mean by support and encouragement. 

Newbies are just that, NEW, they need advice on how to do things better, not people putting them down, berating them, belittling them, and generally being nasty. If I started out with planted tanks and found this forum nowadays, I probably would not have stuck with it, because I sure as heck made some mistakes in the beginning, as I am sure everyone that is now an experienced hobbyist did too, but I would have been disheartened by people just yelling at me instead of giving me actual advice.


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

Karackle said:


> Actually I did, and commented previously, including in my comments that even almost no maintenance tanks don't begin that way and require frequent water changes until cycled to keep ammonia levels low. I agree it was too early to add the fish, and I think OP also realized that and therefore removed the fish from the situation and is hopefully treating the ich.
> 
> 
> I'm not supportive of putting fish in a toxic environment, and am glad the OP realized the mistake. But you can disagree without being a jerk. That's my problem. You can give advice about what not to do without being a jerk. That doesn't mean you are encouraging bad fishkeeping practices or giving your blessing to continue them that way.
> ...


If it makes you happy to call me a jerk, that's cool. I've been called worse. However, OP knew exactly what was going on when this thread was started. Everything that was done was intentional.



chun55555 said:


> Been a while since I was on this site! Life is busy but that doesn't mean you can't have a planted tank! Goal is to have a nice looking tank with as little work as possible. Lots of left over stuff from before thrown together. Filter not needed right? Wish me luck!





chun55555 said:


> If you really cared about providing the best life for your fish then don't buy any. No matter what you do it won't be as good as nature. What we do is intrinsically selfish and we support an industry that takes many of these fish and fauna out of the wild for our own purpose.


And what purpose would that be? I think quote number 1 suggests a few things. Don't you think, Karackle? Yes, I'm a jerk for calling a ace a ace and a spade a spade. Fantastic!

I'm more than happy to help a newbie. This is not what this situation was. Intentions, they do matter. 

If I or anybody else told a newbie to cycle aqua soil, they would ask why, how and most of them would listen. Here lectures are given about how OP doesn't need advice. And even before my big ol' jerk self intruded on this thread, OP was warned,in great detail. Again, OP decided that wasn't the way to go. It was OP's way or the highway. 

A person cannot be a victim and the cause at the same time.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Karackle said:


> .. You can give advice about what not to do without being a jerk. That doesn't mean you are encouraging bad fishkeeping practices or giving your blessing to continue them that way.


I think your support is misplaced. The OP stated he didn't want advice. He was going to do what he wanted so yeah throwing fish into an AS-based tank inside of a week. 



chun55555 said:


> Also I'm not really asking for advice... Just sharing my tank journal.


 @Karackle
Have you used Aquasoil? The supplier states you should do multiple water changes weekly and don't put fish in for about a month. Should I encourage other members to disregard instructions from other manufacturers just to support the OP? 



Karackle said:


> As for the algae, OP hasn't posted anything about algae issues, and to be honest, *not everyone cares if their tank has some algae, that's a matter of preference and in no way a sign of an unhealthy tank or critter unfriendly tank*.


Getting algae is a preference? Why is the Algae thread one of the most popular? I can assure you it's not questions about how to grow it.


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## AWolf (Jun 13, 2014)

Decorum in the forum! 
:fish1:Anyone here who has not done something stupid, or wrongly accused someone of doing something stupid, can slap me upside the face with a fish.


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## RyRob (May 30, 2015)

When someone "experiments" like this it's asking for trouble all around. Then when someone broadcasts the experiment to more experienced people, the more experienced people are of course going to give advice, whether the OP or anyone else wants to hear it or not. 

Personally, I think this "experiment" is a waste of time and money for the OP because I can tell you right now this tank isn't going to be successful long term, if it even makes it that far. 

I'm not bashing anyone but when someone starts an "experiment" on the basis of excluding all help from anybody, what's the point in sharing it? What is the OP trying to learn from this "experiment"? So far it seems how not to start an aquasoil based tank. 

The "experiment" was flawed from the beginning and that's the problem we seem to be having socially. People here see that and try to give advice according to what we are being presented with.

I've been reading this site for about 3 years now and I haven't read anything in this thread that I would consider offensive, unless experienced advice is offensive, which the OP has already stated is, by saying to not give advice in the first place. Well...most of us here don't need to subscribe to a thread to watch a tank slowly die. 

The ones giving advice, know better than to let a tank that someone has worked hard to pay for and set up just wither away. I'd be more concerned if more people here supported this "experiment". 

Dont get me wrong, we have all done our fair share of experimenting and it's what drives this hobby forward, but I just see the forward thinking here, IMO. Hence my first post.


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Karackle said:


> That's not really a very nice attitude. But it reminds me why I stopped being so active on this forum. When I first started here this forum was all about help, support, encouragement, and overall, it was friendly. Wanting to bash someone's system? That's just mean, it's rude, it's unnecessary, and it's totally against everything I (and others that I know that have also stopped participating here) liked about this forum. Unfortunately, I started seeing a lot more people with your attitude as the years progressed, it's very sad to see so many prefer to be rude than supportive just because it's not the way you prefer to run your tanks.
> 
> Chun - I apologize for hijacking your thread with my rant, the rudeness just really frustrates me.


all in good humor, maybe i should've said depict his system, cause thats what i do

Bump:


AWolf said:


> You've got a good point there. I never use a substrate, so for me, it seemed similar to one of my tanks. I don't use filters either. So my fish go in as soon as I fill, because I do major water changes. I didn't realize the soil was so toxic.
> 
> Ok, I take it back @StrungOut ! As long as it was about the fish, not the planted method. Because the method is one I'm in favor of experimenting with. :smile2:
> 
> ...


 Take what back???
I didn't even get a chance to read 

Bump:


chun55555 said:


> Mike sorry for delay. The legs were option when I bought led from big A. online pet store few years ago so I don't know if they are still available.
> 
> Again this is a low med light system. Didn't get true Par, using eye and 50% led.
> 
> Thanks all for comments, esp OVT read many ur posts. Will post pic next week or so.


My bashing was on the lighting, and the lighting seemed to bright from the picture especially all the growth i've seen. I've killed way too many of fish myself so stating would be hypocritical, but ya don't do it (fish karma) Since its at 50% intensity maybe more doable, but i suggest lowering it more.
best
intentions
pologetic
order setting


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

Before we post another pro, con, or apropos of nothing opinion, let's consider the history of "narrow mindedness" and "it cannot be done", in 3 examples:

*Example 1*: Earth has been flat for millenniums. A bunch of heretics burnt alive at the stake and the Earth becomes round. Some time passes and now the Earth is a football

*Example 2*: How many people think they can break 3" concrete blocks with their bare hand? Hollywood is cool but when the bricks are right in front of you most of normal people have their doubts. I witnessed hundreds of young males staring at those bricks for the first time and I can always read their minds: "F* No". Good martial arts masters know the phenomenon well and they send a 60 lb 12 year old female black belt to break the blocks first. After that, you can guess what the new guys are thinking.

*Example 3:*
Tank: 90P clone ~48g
Light: 36" Hagen Glo 2 x t5HO 6" above water surface
Filter: Echeim 2075
Heater: Hydor 300 at 80F
Substrate: 3 x 9L new bags of ADA AquaSoil Amazonia normal
Hardscape: a bunch of Mopani, some pebles to keep plants down
Water: 8.4 pH tap. ~4 dKH, ~9 dGH, Prime
WC to date: 2 x 10g ea
Fertilization: start day 1 of flooding 1/2 recommended EI + 5 ml Excel every other day, no injected co2

Some details have been left out.

Time Line:
June 27 - June 30: flooded over 3 days
July 01: Ambulia, L. repens, L. aromatica, Water Sprite, a crypt, R. colorata, Java Fern, a lilly, floaters, snails go in
July 02: glass cleaned 4 sides
July 03: Amonia 0, Nitrate 10, 7.5 pH tank water
July 03: Ambulia and L. repens trimmed and replanted
July 04: 17 Flame Tetras + 3 C. sterbai +1 male guppy go in
July 04: new Blyxa, dwarf sag, Bacopa, H. kompact, AR mini, L. red go in
July 06: 35 Neon Tetras go in (3 dead, 1 jumper)
July 13: 5 C. sterbai + 5 Bolivian Rams + 10 otos (2 dead)

Pictures: as of July 17:






























*Challange*: Go, break those bricks.

Pope Francis: "_Who am I to judge?_"


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## Smooch (May 14, 2016)

This thread is... confusing. While those with opposing views are should zip the lip ( especially yours truly, the jerk) those that campaign for such behavior that was displayed in this thread can continue with lectures about how not to judge while being judgmental, name calling, ect..

Last week I was accused of improperly stocking my tanks because apparently I need to explain every little detail of tanks I've kept for over 20 years. 

Indirectly I have been accused of doing nothing more than constantly "neglecting' my tanks because CO2. If you don't use it, there is no possible way a person could have a clue what their pH is never mind ammonia levels, phosphates, ect...

Let us not forget the ugly situation that happened a few weeks ago with a member that is here that wanted to put a betta in a 29. That person was ripped a new one as apparently putting a betta in a *cycled* 29 with a few snails is the most horrible thing a person could do. 

So, my weekly water changes, keeping tabs on water parameters, tank cleaning, ect... is neglect. A person wanting to keep a betta in a 29 is also neglect. I have no idea if keeping a crayfish in a 30 is neglect or not, but since that seems to be a running theme, I suppose somebody would say that it is. 

What is a tank that is this situation called? Obviously it isn't neglect because I do that on a daily basis. Google says this about neglect:

ne·glect
nəˈɡlekt/
verb
1.
fail to care for properly.
"the old churchyard has been sadly neglected"
synonyms:	fail to look after, leave alone, abandon, desert; More
noun
1.
the state or fact of being uncared for.
"animals dying through disease or neglect"
synonyms:	disrepair, dilapidation, deterioration, shabbiness, disuse, abandonment; raredesuetude
"the place had an air of neglect"

I love this hobby, to learn about it and improve on things I don't do well, but there are some things that will never change. Hush! Don't talk about something unless you are in the same frame of mind...


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@OVT

Nice tank, but are there really 70 (76 put in minus 6 deceased) fish in there?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@houseofcards - yes, unless i missed some bodies. I cannot visually count the tetras but the rest are still there.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

OVT said:


> @houseofcards - yes, unless i missed some bodies. I cannot visually count the tetras but the rest are still there.


I guess they're shy :laugh2:

Anyway why did you flood over 3 days?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Anyway, updates on this setup?

@OVT

I hear what your saying. You don't always have to follow conventional wisdom, but there are very large differences between your tank and the OPs. Most notably:

*You tested water for Ammonia *- OP didn't say he did, what he said was "due to work, I'm accelerating the timeline." in terms of putting fish in.

*Did water changes *- You did two water changes in 2 weeks representing about 50% of tank volume, OP did none with Aqua Soil as well. You also flooded over 3 days so not sure if you removed some of the water which would have leached alot of the Ammonia. Either way you did water changes.

*Huge Filter* - You have a large Eheim filter, OP has none.

*Large Plant Mass* - Your plant mass is huge compared to the OPs. 



OVT said:


> *Example 2*: How many people think they can break 3" concrete blocks with their bare hand? Hollywood is cool but when the bricks are right in front of you most of normal people have their doubts. I witnessed hundreds of young males staring at those bricks for the first time and I can always read their minds: "F* No". Good martial arts masters know the phenomenon well and they send a 60 lb 12 year old female black belt to break the blocks first. After that, you can guess what the new guys are thinking.


You know people walk over hot coals since they can mentally prepare themselves. I don't think fish have this ability with Ammonia in the water column.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Krackle I don't mind the hijack. 

I think in this day and age, online posts can get a little rough and it is unfortunate but I can handle it! Break the cycle! Even if someone else was not pleasant to you, you don't have to get sucked up into it. Even if you are right about something, others listen better when you are pleasant.

I think I'm too old.... I was looking up wet's EI calculator and its off line. Okay back to the tank. Here are some new pics. Some growth with the hair grass and Limnophila and nana. Some yellowing with the s.repens. Time to start dosing.

I said a pinch here and there for ferts because that is what I use, a pinch spoon. The original dosing was using Tom Barr modified non CO2 dosing but I can't find the article again. I researched it for my 36g and I will use 1/3 for this tank.

1/3 pinch N
1/9 pinch K
1/9 pinch P
1/18 pinch trace and iron

once a week. as you can see I'm really estimating the k,p,trace but I wanted to give a better idea of how much fert I'm using. 

No fish. Can't get to the shop. I'm sure everyone is pretty happy about that!

Also no algae. No diatom either, maybe shrimp ate it all. 

Shrimp doing well, one is berried. Follow up in a few weeks.


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## TaylorTurner (Mar 15, 2016)

chun55555 said:


> I said a pinch here and there for ferts because that is what I use, a pinch spoon. The original dosing was using Tom Barr modified non CO2 dosing but I can't find the article again. I researched it for my 36g and I will use 1/3 for this tank.


Chun, maybe this the article you are talking about: Low Tech Non-CO2.

As for dosing, this is what the article says; "as per Tom’s recommendations, dose the following once a week or once in two weeks for a 20 gallon tank. If you have a different sized tank, calculate the required fert dose accordingly.

1/4 Teaspoon of Seachem Equilibrium (for traces and Calcium + Magnesium). (1.42 ppm Ca, 0.42 ppm Mg, 3.43 ppm K and 0.02 ppm Fe)
1/8 Teaspoon of KNO3 (Potassium Nitrate) (5.27 ppm NO3 and 3.32 ppm K)
1/32 Teaspoon of KH2PO4 (Potassium Mono Phosphate) (1.61 ppm PO4 and 0.66 ppm K)."


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Yes thank you Turner!


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## etane (May 14, 2012)

welcome to tpt. you have a good start. your tank looks really nice but i share the same reservations as others do and cannot help to think that you do not understand tank cycling or fish acclimation. but, in any case, let me link you what i think is the best dutch tank on this site and hopefully it can inspire and aspire you. it's really worth a read. and, by the time you finish reading it, your tank might be cycled.

tom's bucket


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## proper.noun (May 29, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> I think your support is misplaced. The OP stated he didn't want advice. He was going to do what he wanted so yeah throwing fish into an AS-based tank inside of a week.
> 
> 
> @Karackle
> ...


If I may ask.. Where are you getting your information about Aquasoil? What you said struck me as false (inaccurate?) so I read the manufacturer's instructions because I happened to have a bag of ADA Amazonia next to me and I just don't see what you're asserting about the product.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

proper.noun said:


> If I may ask.. Where are you getting your information about Aquasoil? *What you said struck me as false (inaccurate?) *so I read the manufacturer's instructions because I happened to have a bag of ADA Amazonia next to me and I just don't see what you're asserting about the product.


Do you think I made it up? You don't think aquasoil leaches Ammonia heavily when first submersed?


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

OVT said:


> Before we post another pro, con, or apropos of nothing opinion, let's consider the history of "narrow mindedness" and "it cannot be done", in 3 examples:
> 
> *Example 1*: Earth has been flat for millenniums. A bunch of heretics burnt alive at the stake and the Earth becomes round. Some time passes and now the Earth is a football
> 
> ...


hey OVT,are those my plants they look great can i have them back lol


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## proper.noun (May 29, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Do you think I made it up? You don't think aquasoil leaches Ammonia heavily when first submersed?



Strictly speaking yes, I do think you made it up- That part about the manufacturers instructions stating that "you should do multiple water changes weekly and don't put fish in for about a month." 

I guess I don't like it when people fabricate facts to bolster their argument, which is what I interpreted your statement as doing.

I've been told by several pple that Aquasoil leeches ammonia when first submersed and have no reason to believe they're lying to me.


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## Doogy262 (Aug 11, 2013)

proper.noun said:


> If I may ask.. Where are you getting your information about Aquasoil? What you said struck me as false (inaccurate?) so I read the manufacturer's instructions because I happened to have a bag of ADA Amazonia next to me and I just don't see what you're asserting about the product.



** Please note that ADA substrates are designed to release ammonia as an aid in cycling new filter media. This is in effect “fishless cycling” and is of great benefit to livestock when they are eventually added to the tank. Because of this livestock should not be added for at least three weeks and we reccomend that a large 70% water change be carried out weekly during this period. Planting will also be easier at this point as plants too do not appreciate high ammonia levels. We are not just a website: we have a real shop full of Nature Aquarium displays, so we can offer you truly expert advice. For more help and assistance please contact us now, phone us on 01978 265 090, or visit us in store. We have helped thousands of people learn to aquascape…and we are still counting! Or find out a little bit more about us by reading The Green Machine Experience. Browse our Aquascape Journals to see ADA Aqua Soil being used in hundreds of aquascapes.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

proper.noun said:


> Strictly speaking yes, I do think you made it up- That part about the manufacturers instructions stating that "you should do multiple water changes weekly and don't put fish in for about a month."
> 
> I guess I don't like it when people fabricate facts to bolster their argument, which is what I interpreted your statement as doing.


Your sure you want to go with that? So if it doesn't say it on the packaging it isn't true. 



proper.noun said:


> I've been told by several people that Aquasoil leeches ammonia when first submersed and have no reason to believe they're lying to me.


So I told you it leaches Ammonia too and because some other people told you the same thing it's true? But I'm telling you what I know about Aquasoil and your calling me a liar? What would be my reason for lying? If someone else comes on here and agrees with me, am I still making it up?


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

@Doogy262 

Thanks, we posted about the same time. 

Obviously with ammonia leaching what else would one do, but large water changes and delay fish introduction.


@proper.noun

Now a second person told you and it's coming from an ADA distributor (so that would carry more wait then just two people telling you something, like the Ammonia example right?)


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## proper.noun (May 29, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Your sure you want to go with that? So if it doesn't say it on the packaging it isn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> So I told you it leaches Ammonia too and because some other people told you the same thing it's true? But I'm telling you what I know about Aquasoil and your calling me a liar? What would be my reason for lying? If someone else comes on here and agrees with me, am I still making it up?


If it doesn't say it on the package then.. it doesn't say it on the package. Therefore you shouldn't claim that, "it says so on the package." I picked up the bag/instructions to corroborate you statement and was left empty-handed. That was my singular issue with your post. I'm not calling you a liar, at worst I'm saying you misremembered or misstated the source of your information. 

I appreciate @Doogy262 referencing The Green Machine's website, now I know where you got your info from. I also see that Aquatic Garden, one of ADA's USA distributors says something similar on their website (the other USA distributor is silent on the subject).


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

proper.noun said:


> If it doesn't say it on the package then.. it doesn't say it on the package. *Therefore you shouldn't claim that, "it says so on the package*..."
> 
> ..


Your not done yet? Now that you repeated it three times, *where did I state that it says it on the packaging? Why don't you quote my post if I said that?* Do you think packaging is all the communication a company has with it's end-user?


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## proper.noun (May 29, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> Your not done yet? Now that you repeated it three times, *where did I state that it says it on the packaging? Why don't you quote my post if I said that?* Do you think packaging is all the communication a company has with it's end-user?





houseofcards said:


> Have you used Aquasoil? The supplier states you should do multiple water changes weekly and don't put fish in for about a month.


Some suppliers state this, others do not. My supplier did not state this.



houseofcards said:


> Should I encourage other members to disregard instructions from other manufacturers just to support the OP?


Here it's directly implied that the op disregarded manufacturer instructions.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

First things first



proper.noun said:


> If it doesn't say it on the package then.. it doesn't say it on the package. *Therefore you shouldn't claim that, "it says so on the package*..."


Why are you quoting this in your quotes. Why not use the thread's quote function if I said this. Will you admit that I never said this?


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## OVT (Nov 29, 2011)

@Doogy262 at least 5 plant species are yours and they are all keepers ☺
Thanks a million again!

Aqua Soil leaches Ammonia.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

proper.noun said:


> Strictly speaking yes, I do think you made it up- That part about the manufacturers instructions stating that "you should do multiple water changes weekly and don't put fish in for about a month."
> 
> I guess I don't like it when people fabricate facts to bolster their argument, which is what I interpreted your statement as doing.


Why somebody would accuse me of this with no proof let alone the number of years I've been using Aquasoil is beyond me, but since I don't want to leave any doubt.

This is the guidebook of ADA. Makers of Aquasoil. It's content is available online I'm sure, but this is my copy. 










On page 42-43 there's a maintenance flow chart from startup through the 1st year. You could see in the first week they recommend daily water changes. In the second week they stated water changes every other day. 










In the third week water changes are down to every 3 days and then a month later it's once a week. 










Something else interesting happens at the one month mark.










*What a surprise!*


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## TheGreenWizard (Jan 19, 2015)

Chun,

Very interesting concept, and beautiful tank. Like others, I'm a bit hesitant about it due to the lack of water movement - then again, once fauna are added, they'll be moving the water around, though at a significantly lower rate than mechanical filters.

As a scientist/biologist, I really love this experiment - it pushes the limits about what is necessary for a tank. It also reminds me of glass containers with lids with organisms inside that I have seen on these forums. They do fine there, but what you're doing is upscaling that technique so much farther than what is comfortable...

Needless to say, subscribing to the thread and will keep updated with this!



chun55555 said:


> Krackle I don't mind the hijack.
> 
> I think in this day and age, online posts can get a little rough and it is unfortunate but I can handle it! Break the cycle! Even if someone else was not pleasant to you, you don't have to get sucked up into it. Even if you are right about something, others listen better when you are pleasant.
> 
> ...


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Okay so I did start to get a bit of brown dusting on the glass and I added a oto to help. I also add 6 corys from other tank. Unfortunately, the previous fish didn't do well with ick despite treatment. Still no time to goto fish store, next up date for sure.

Okay the S.repens wasn't doing well and I bumped up the fert just a bit now adding another half dose during the week. I see new leaves so we'll see if they are normal. I also added a bit of GH boost with Bee shrimp GH boost. The other plants seem to do fine.

Shrimps doing fine, berries but haven't seen babies yet.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Remember you brought ich home from the store last time...
Fish don't get ich from nothing, ich can only live on fish, it can not stay dormant in a tank waiting for fish to be stressed.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Nordic, you mean ick CAN stay dormant in tank right? I've read like 30 days without treatment. I did treat the tank anyways for a week without fish in it anyways with Kordon ick attack. then it was shrimp only until just now. I'll see how the cories do for a bit. Likely in 2 weeks earliest for new fish anyways.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

They will only last long at very low temperatures. If your temperature was high enough the Kordon stuff might have worked. I prefer salt and heat and in planted tanks, raising the temperature for a week, with all fish in hospital tanks. It gets really problematic fast if you don't kill all the ich during the first cycle. Each can turn into 1000 more.

That being said, the only way to get ich is to bring it into your tank from another inhabited tank, most likely on fish. The chances of it happening any other way are vanishingly small in my opinion.
It will attach to gills where the first bastards are normally not even seen, but one may notice flashing by the fish.


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## Judeamarco (Apr 6, 2016)

I mean, the ich and the aquasoil debate aside(it leeches ammonia, trust me. Friend's $100 imported betta died of ammonia poisoning because he put it in after 3 days of setting up...), no circulation + no filter + slow growth + not a lot of plants + high bioload + top off only + dosing is kindof a disaster waiting to happen. I suggest choosing your fauna carefully for this tank. Maybe hold off on fauna until it has significant growth?

I've done the top off only and no filter thing before but the only thing living there were three ghost shrimp and the entire tank was full of moss and s.repens so I don't know how successful it will be with a huge tank like this


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I've said it before on here, betta's are a very bad choice for cycling tanks. Not only do they take ammonia quite badly, they are also very prone to fin rot and dropsy while tanks are cycling. My little guy is quite happy being neglected for the most part. and only admired from a distance. Sometimes he'll get fed two days in a row, sometimes I will skip feeding him for 3 days, to allow the plants to soak up excess waste. The tank is so densely planted that he tunnels through the plants and does his own things in there.


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Ton of info on the forum but people like to re-invent a square wheel


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Makes me wonder how small container tub's outdoor's manage to support life without filter,water movement,plant's placed in pot's of organic rich soil.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

I have 3 identical tubs outside, they are just filled with rain water. 2 of them are green algae messes, while the 3rd has clear pinkish sweet water teaming with all kinds of life. There is a balance between bacteria and plankton. The 2 green messes only have a few mosquito larvae. The 2 green ones just gets a tad more sunlight.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Ton's of guppies in mine outdoor's last year till concrete patio go too hot, and cooked the plant's and fish.
Outdoor temp's 112 degrees F with heat index.
Large beach umbrella over the tub, but the concrete was too hot for bare feet.
Just sayin,I don't see much difference between what OP is doing indoors and what many do outdoors.
Outdoors and it's admired by many but indoors???


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

I never had a problem with OPs setup, I even said positive things in my first post. My issue is the use of Aquasoil, fish in right way, no water changes, not that heavily planted, etc. I've done plenty of setups without water movement. It works. I've never believed you need a lot of flow.


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## Blackbetty (Feb 24, 2016)

Hahhahaha I love this thread.

You guys are getting so angry at this dude for not being conventional.being unconventional.
Chun, keep on keepin on man, these squares can't handle your style!


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## houseofcards (Mar 21, 2009)

Blackbetty said:


> Hahhahaha I love this thread.
> 
> You guys are getting so angry at this dude for not being conventional.being unconventional.
> Chun, keep on keepin on man, these squares can't handle your style!


Yep, I find nothing interesting about putting a square peg in a round hole. You might as well put the fish in a blender. It's quicker.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

*update*

WOW A YEAR HAS GONE BY! Sorry, Life! Well the beginning was rough b/c of my impatience and adding fish too soon, I admit.

However the tank without filter, minimal water change(once past year) has been good!

update:
Took out S.repens(died). added blyxa japonica. added a few more dwarf cory, microdervario kubotai, and a sparkling gourami from other tanks. shrimps all gone except for amano. added osmocote plus 6months in or so. Slow growth but that's what I want! Again minimal maintenance. occasional spot excel.


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## AbbeysDad (Apr 13, 2016)

Plants, fish, and shrimp loss. All the previous pics look like little/no plant growth. So how about some current pics?

Edit: Wow, the picture that was added after my initial post here looks like the original pic?
I'm doubting this is a current picture. If it is, it shows zero growth of any kind. That's just sad. I also don't see any other signs of life.
I dunno, it doesn't seem all that successful to me.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Exactly! Little growth= less maintenance! No filter cleaning, one water change/year. Top off, add fert,feed fish. Wipe tank once two weeks. No too hard.


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## Bananableps (Nov 6, 2013)

Little plant growth means little nutrient export. If you put nitrogen into the tank in the form of food, you need to be taking it out in the form of biomass. Consider adding some emergently growing plants.

You would have more sympathy, less outrage if you at least pretended to have shame for the animals you negligently killed. 

The stock you describe is not low biomass. Minimal water change tanks are possible, but not with your stocking levels and low plant growth. You will continue to lose animals if you proceed this way.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

Actually no significant fish loss after initial stocking. Pretty stable tank right now.


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## aquaBender (Aug 18, 2016)

houseofcards said:


> I never had a problem with OPs setup, I even said positive things in my first post. My issue is the use of Aquasoil, fish in right way, no water changes, not that heavily planted, etc. I've done plenty of setups without water movement. It works. I've never believed you need a lot of flow.


I'm curious, have you tried dirted tanks without water movement? I want to try this, however in her book Diana Walstad states medium flow is good for plants as it transports nutrients and gases around. 

Also, I'm curious if you had heaters in these tanks as I'm not sure how heat distribution would work with no water movement.


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## chun55555 (Jun 24, 2016)

No heaters. I have tried this with dirt and other substrate but only for 3gal or less. It shouldn't matter what substrate. Point is sure flow is good for diffusion but not absolutely necessary.


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## adive (Oct 30, 2013)

easternlethal said:


> I have a low tech low light tank with no water changes. literally just a bucket of water. plants can do alright in it if you leave it long enough. It does exist in nature in the form of lakes and ponds which have no more tributaries and rely on rain. Those water bodies have no flow either only wind.
> 
> but water is dense and h2o molecules make it hard for molecules to disperse. especially near the substrate and around plants. that's why the water separates into layers with different characteristics.



I agree with this. See my tank journal in my signature, especially the last pics. You can think of my tank as an outdoor pond. I have completely left it in the hands of the natural elements of light, wind, cold, warm & rain. I dont interfere with it at all, just feed the fish once a day & some water maintenance a few months if I think its required.


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