# My Dwarf Baby Tears Burnt Up?!



## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

All you dose is the nitrates and potassium? Might need a more complete regimen of ferts to provide all the nutrients plants need to grow healthily.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

swarley said:


> All you dose is the nitrates and potassium? Might need a more complete regimen of ferts to provide all the nutrients plants need to grow healthily.


Excel, Flourish, and Iron.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

Teebo said:


> Excel, Flourish, and Iron.


Ah. Excel isn’t a fert really, just an algicide. 
Flourish has very little ferts. If you want to try again, I’d go for diy/dry ferts or a liquid all-in-one. Those aren’t exactly easy plants to grow so don’t feel too disheartened. Are you injecting CO2? Sorry if it’s in an earlier post already.


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## kaldurak (May 2, 2010)

Your tank needs phosphate. It's got what plants crave.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Was this a dry start? Is co2 being used and what is the substrate?


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Never used CO2, and this was not a dry start. The substrate I think is FloraMax but I forget, I know I did not use any of my ADA on this tank...unless I mixed a little in. 

So if I go heavy on my potassium that would have helped this? I know of all the Seachem supplements that it calls for more Phosphate per gallon than anything else.

I did unplug my heater bringing the temp from a stable 78F to a swing between 72-76F would that have caused this??


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

A test for PO4 would be helpful to determine if that's the culprit here. Do you know your GH? 
My guess is whatever nutrients the substrate was providing (if it's not inert like eco-complete), those are gone now and that's why you're losing your carpet. The light focus could magnify the issue locally - plants are being driven harder without the nutrients to grow. I cannot help you at all with the SeaChem line and what to dose there but I'd actually consider saving yourself a ton of money and picking up an EI packet and using that. Then using Rotalabutterfly.com to determine how much you need to dose to reach your desired ppm targets.

Very unlikely that it's temp related. I've got a carpet of DBT going in a tank that's 72-73(no heater) and one that's held pretty well at 75.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I do have a PO4 test but I never use it, I thought phosphate and potassium were different things. I will test, then add Seachem Potassium and test again to see if it is detected! 

gH is 160ppm
kH is 30ppm

My substrate is inert.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Do you have a pic of the HC carpet when it was healthy? It's usually pretty difficult to grow a "full" carpet of HC without co2 in an inert substrate. Same goes for DHG to a lesser degree.


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## swarley (Apr 12, 2018)

They are different things for sure. Different names and all. Both needed for plants. I’d definitely go with the suggestion to start using proper fertilizer. Buy some dry ferts from nilocg if you’re based in North America. Or you can go with a liquid fert like Nilocg’s Thrive, UNS’s All-in-one, or if you’re UK-based the Aquascaper complete plant food. Those are probably the best options for you. 

Giving plants high light without complete nutrients is a recipe for unhealthy plants, with or without CO2 injection.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

asteriod said:


> Do you have a pic of the HC carpet when it was healthy? It's usually pretty difficult to grow a "full" carpet of HC without co2 in an inert substrate. Same goes for DHG to a lesser degree.


Yeah, and its completely possible. The key is liquid carbon/Excel/metricide long as the other nutrients and lighting permits. This is not the only tank I am growing flourishing HC in without CO2.




















swarley said:


> They are different things for sure. Different names and all. Both needed for plants. I’d definitely go with the suggestion to start using proper fertilizer. Buy some dry ferts from nilocg if you’re based in North America. Or you can go with a liquid fert like Nilocg’s Thrive, UNS’s All-in-one, or if you’re UK-based the Aquascaper complete plant food. Those are probably the best options for you.
> 
> Giving plants high light without complete nutrients is a recipe for unhealthy plants, with or without CO2 injection.


Everything was fine for quite a while with what I was doing, the liquid ferts were definitely working so I am not sure what you mean by proper. The only time I considered using dry ferts was with larger tanks where Seachem or liquid fert products were costly. This was when I started using GreenLeafAquariums KNO3 for a fish-less planted marine setup using macroalgae and mangroves, etc. If I were to use this on my freshwater tanks it would jack the nitrates up too high...I rarely need to do water changes on this Iwagumi because the fish produced just enough bio-load to keep the nitrates between 5-10ppm. Once a month I would add 0.5mL of Seachem Nitrogen to the tank when the nitrates dropped to 5ppm and that would bring it to 10ppm which is where it would stay for about 3 weeks. This is why I used Seachem Potassium rather than GreenLeafAquariums dry KNO3...the photo below was taken and posted on a saltwater forum because I was ripping through liquid nitrogen.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Not as full and thick as with co2, but nevertheless good job. You probably have alot less room for error without actual co2. Is it possible you OD on the meth/excel.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Teebo said:


> Everything was fine for quite a while with what I was doing, the liquid ferts were definitely working so I am not sure what you mean by proper. The only time I considered using dry ferts was with larger tanks where Seachem or liquid fert products were costly. This was when I started using GreenLeafAquariums KNO3 for a fish-less planted marine setup using macroalgae and mangroves, etc. If I were to use this on my freshwater tanks it would jack the nitrates up too high...


I think this goes back to what I was saying about your substrate being exhausted. From what you've indicated, you're not dosing a complete fertilizer regimen(i.e. no mention of PO4, no micros?...maybe you were alluding to that in the post where you mention Flourish, not sure if you meant Flourish Nitrogen though or Flourish the micro solution), that's why we're advising a change now. Your substrate can no longer support the plant life without the assistance of the water column ferts. 

I'm not sure why you think GLA's KNO3 would behave any different from SeaChems Nitrogen supplement. They're both a nitrogen source, it's all about dosing size. I use GLA's KNO3 on two 10 gallon tanks and a 29. On the 10's, I just use rotalabutterfly to figure out how much I need to reach, say, 10 ppm. My high-tech 10 gets 20 ppm front loaded after weekly water change, my low-tech 10 gets 10 ppm/wk. It doesn't HAVE to jack your nitrates up if you dose it based on water volume and target ppm's. 

Plants must have a source of nitrogen, phosphate, potassium, and then we get into all the micros. Fe, Mg, Ca, Mo, Mn, Zn, so on and so forth. I don't think I'm telling you anything you don't already know, but if things are missing and you're cranking high light, you're not going to have a good time.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

Teebo said:


> Excel, Flourish, and Iron.


Looks like he's dosing micros. It doesn't make sense that he wouldn't be.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

asteriod said:


> Looks like he's dosing micros. It doesn't make sense that he wouldn't be.


I don't operate on assumptions like that, it isn't helpful. Re-read my first paragraph, I asked the question as to whether he was referring to Flourish Nitrogen or Flourish Trace, as he has a photo of Flourish Nitrogen. Since he didn't mention "Flourish Nitrogen" in the post you quoted, my query is fitting.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

mgeorges said:


> I don't operate on assumptions like that, it isn't helpful. Re-read my first paragraph, I asked the question as to whether he was referring to Flourish Nitrogen or Flourish Trace, as he has a photo of Flourish Nitrogen. Since he didn't mention "Flourish Nitrogen" in the post you quoted, my query is fitting.


He's experienced, he has several tanks. He knows all about macros/micros. It's not an assumption, it's pretty obvious from the thread content IMO. I stand by what I stated.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

mgeorges said:


> I think this goes back to what I was saying about your substrate being exhausted. From what you've indicated, you're not dosing a complete fertilizer regimen(i.e. no mention of PO4)





Teebo said:


> ...can not test my potassium but I dose 3mL of Seachem potassium once a week and this is a 16 gallon tank.


I use Flourish comp, plus the other products mentioned. 












mgeorges said:


> I'm not sure why you think GLA's KNO3 would behave any different from SeaChems Nitrogen supplement. They're both a nitrogen source, it's all about dosing size. I use GLA's KNO3 on two 10 gallon tanks and a 29. On the 10's, I just use rotalabutterfly to figure out how much I need to reach, say, 10 ppm. My high-tech 10 gets 20 ppm front loaded after weekly water change, my low-tech 10 gets 10 ppm/wk. It doesn't HAVE to jack your nitrates up if you dose it based on water volume and target ppm's.


Your missing the aspect that it has a locked nitrogen : potassium ratio, and I have my nitrogen bio : plant load balanced. This is why I need them in separate products. Does this make sense?


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Teebo said:


> I use Flourish comp, plus the other products mentioned.


So to be certain, no Flourish Phosphorous, correct? Flourish Comp has so little phosphate in it, this could be something to look at.



Teebo said:


> Your missing the aspect that it has a locked nitrogen : potassium ratio, and I have my nitrogen bio : plant load balanced. This is why I need them in separate products. Does this make sense?


Got it. I use KNO3 and KH2PO4, and that adds plenty of K to my tanks, no need to add anything extra. That's just my frame of refernce. I also get a little extra from remineralizing my KH with KHCO3. Excess K is less of an issue than excess N, and I'd venture to say having a little excess K is probably not a bad thing so it's not a limiting factor.


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## Asteroid (Jul 26, 2018)

I don't think a deficiency would cause it to "burn up" like that in a connected area. Is it possible something came in contact with it via spot dosing/algae control etc?


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## vvDO (Oct 18, 2010)

Just to throw another possibility out there...

Maybe the growth got too thick and roots died off and started rotting.

?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

I tested my tank for phosphate right before my weekly dosing. It tested from what I can tell @ 0ppm, so I dosed and tested the following morning allowing the water to mix up well overnight. Tested the same 0ppm, so obviously adding potassium did not increase it and neither did anything in Flourish "comprehensive" therefor I should start adding phosphate?



mgeorges said:


> So to be certain, no Flourish Phosphorous, correct? Flourish Comp has so little phosphate in it, this could be something to look at.
> 
> Got it. I use KNO3 and KH2PO4, and that adds plenty of K to my tanks, no need to add anything extra. That's just my frame of refernce. I also get a little extra from remineralizing my KH with KHCO3. Excess K is less of an issue than excess N, and I'd venture to say having a little excess K is probably not a bad thing so it's not a limiting factor.


Yes correct, I think I always confused or mixed up phosphorous with potassium. So its the phosphorous that I am lacking, I know that nitrate is a direct contributing factor of algae growth...but what about potassium and phosphorous? Which of the two is more of a contributing factor?? 



vvDO said:


> Just to throw another possibility out there...
> 
> Maybe the growth got too thick and roots died off and started rotting?


That was a thought of mine, but without enough long term exposure to the species I was not sure if it was a possibility or not. I kept thinking I let it grow too thick and the cutback was a shock, or that it became so thick the lower level of leaves started to rot (feeding the upper level) and when I cut it back there was not enough leaf material to continue photosynthesis causing the stems to rot back.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Teebo said:


> ...I know that nitrate is a direct contributing factor of algae growth...but what about potassium and phosphorous? Which of the two is more of a contributing factor??


Sorry your source of information is wrong. So much misinformation out there. Nitrate does not cause algae, nor does potassium or phosphate. We dose large amounts of these with no algae issues.

The contributing factor is unhealthy plants. They give off sugars/carbohydrates and ammonia that trigger algae spores. Healthy plants = no food for algae 




Teebo said:


> That was a thought of mine, but without enough long term exposure to the species I was not sure if it was a possibility or not. I kept thinking I let it grow too thick and the cutback was a shock, or that it became so thick the lower level of leaves started to rot (feeding the upper level) and when I cut it back there was not enough leaf material to continue photosynthesis causing the stems to rot back.


Never kept this specific species, but it's more likely a lack of a nutrient. Look at the places most affected - it's all where the highest levels of light would be. They were driven too hard. Possible they didn't handle a trim well, but more likely they burned out trying to grow without nutrients they needed.


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## mgeorges (Feb 1, 2017)

Teebo said:


> I tested my tank for phosphate right before my weekly dosing. It tested from what I can tell @ 0ppm, so I dosed and tested the following morning allowing the water to mix up well overnight. Tested the same 0ppm, so obviously adding potassium did not increase it and neither did anything in Flourish "comprehensive" therefor I should start adding phosphate?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nate made excellent points on the algae factor. The biggest issue is unhealthy plants, and imbalances add to the issue.

Yes, I would start dosing PO4. This is completely separate from K, totally unrelated other than they're both Macros and both are necessary for plant growth. With your test kit indicating 0 ppm, this could certainly be the cause for the death of your carpet.

I've never grown DBT without CO2, but when adding CO2 and getting good, dense growth, if you don't keep it well trimmed, the bottom will absolutely die out. I'm not sure that this type of super dense growth is achievable without CO2, so I'm not sure that you'd have the same concern. From looking at the density though in the picture you posted, the carpet doesn't look tall enough for this to be a concern yet, leading me back to deficiency being your #1 issue here.


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## madcrafted (Dec 23, 2017)

I've been growing HC in a low tech nano tank since March (caridina tank to be more specific), so a bit longer than 6 months. I used some older fluval substrate I had laying around. I doubt it was rich in any organic matter because it never leeched any ammonia from day 1.. much like other shrimp substrates. I started out dosing PPS method but quickly started neglecting feedings. I'd say it gets dosed a small amount of Flourish like once a week along with some Magic Powder and other various shrimp foods, which is enough to keep nitrates above 10 ppm at all times, sometimes closer to 30 ppm. I rarely ever dose any KH2PO4 to this tank and have only trimmed the HC once since I started it. The biggest factor in plant growth is always going to be determined by the amount of lighting. I have a 13W clip on LED connected to a central dimmer running at 50%. Low tech, low light. This plant doesn't need high amounts of lighting to grow nice, especially in a low tech environment. It may take longer to grow out, sure, but it shouldn't yellow up and die on you... thick carpet or not.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

natemcnutty said:


> Sorry your source of information is wrong. So much misinformation out there. Nitrate does not cause algae, nor does potassium or phosphate. We dose large amounts of these with no algae issues.
> 
> The contributing factor is unhealthy plants. They give off sugars/carbohydrates and ammonia that trigger algae spores. Healthy plants = no food for algae


I am learning this the hard way as BBA is attacking "melting" plants right now. It seems like fertilizers have some role in how fast algae grows on the glass though? I never have issues with algae in the tank other than the glass, I control it with Nerite snails but I always keep my nitrates around 5-10ppm to avoid excessive glass-greening.




mgeorges said:


> Yes, I would start dosing PO4. This is completely separate from K, totally unrelated other than they're both Macros and both are necessary for plant growth. With your test kit indicating 0 ppm, this could certainly be the cause for the death of your carpet.
> 
> I've never grown DBT without CO2, but when adding CO2 and getting good, dense growth, if you don't keep it well trimmed, the bottom will absolutely die out. I'm not sure that this type of super dense growth is achievable without CO2, so I'm not sure that you'd have the same concern. From looking at the density though in the picture you posted, the carpet doesn't look tall enough for this to be a concern yet, leading me back to deficiency being your #1 issue here.


I bought a 500ml bottle of Seachem Phosphorous to supplement this, I just dosed it. I can't believe I have been so ignorant to one of the major NPK nutrients, the bottle says a symptom of deficiency is dark green plants, which is what I experienced with my hairgrass before it melted away!




madcrafted said:


> I've been growing HC in a low tech nano tank since March (caridina tank to be more specific), so a bit longer than 6 months. I used some older fluval substrate I had laying around. I rarely ever dose any KH2PO4 to this tank and have only trimmed the HC once since I started it. The biggest factor in plant growth is always going to be determined by the amount of lighting. I have a 13W clip on LED connected to a central dimmer running at 50%.


My lighting must be very bright in comparison because I have trimmed my carpet several times over 6 months. Maybe less light is the key if I want to keep my fertilizing to a minimal.


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## natemcnutty (May 26, 2016)

Teebo said:


> I am learning this the hard way as BBA is attacking "melting" plants right now. It seems like fertilizers have some role in how fast algae grows on the glass though? I never have issues with algae in the tank other than the glass, I control it with Nerite snails but I always keep my nitrates around 5-10ppm to avoid excessive glass-greening.
> 
> My lighting must be very bright in comparison because I have trimmed my carpet several times over 6 months. Maybe less light is the key if I want to keep my fertilizing to a minimal.


I don't know exactly how the addition of phosphates reduces green algae on the glass, but you may notice it mostly go away after you have been dosing a healthy amount of P.

Lighting is a double edged sword - it needs to be appropriate for the amount of fertilizer and CO2, but it also has to be high enough to drive enough plant growth that they stay healthy. Too little light may still grow plants but not keep them healthy enough to ward off algae. 

On my 29 at about 16" from light to substrate, I thought I was pushing pretty good light with a Fennix 24/7. It wasn't until I added a second one that my lingering algae issues went away.

All that to say, your plants look great considering they have not had adequate phosphates, so I'd leave your lighting alone if all was healthy and simply dial in the fertilizers


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

natemcnutty said:


> I don't know exactly how the addition of phosphates reduces green algae on the glass, but you may notice it mostly go away after you have been dosing a healthy amount of P.
> 
> Lighting is a double edged sword - it needs to be appropriate for the amount of fertilizer and CO2, but it also has to be high enough to drive enough plant growth that they stay healthy. Too little light may still grow plants but not keep them healthy enough to ward off algae.
> 
> ...


Exactly the opposite, I said I was concerned about the addition of phosphates INCREASING my green glass. That is most certainly did, only a few days after dosing phosphates the algae on the glass has increased by many folds. The algae attacking my melting plants is BBA not green algae, my Amano shrimp do not seem to be helping with the BBA, they typically don't. I can't possibly see adding more light, its very bright I have three PAR style LED bulbs over 16 gallons, each CONSUMING 18W, I can still feel the heat at the water surface and they are LEDs which generally do not generate heat.

Now that the missing nutrient has completed the circle of growth I may need to revisit how much of the other elements I am dosing to control the green glass, as I have slowly increased them over time as I saw growth stunt I felt the tank had graduated to the next level of nutrient demand. I believe I jacked the potassium way up.

All in all I have seen a tremendous increase in pearling since dosing the phosphates, my tank has constant rising bubbles and I am not even using CO2 (just daily Excel). I am now adding phosphates to my other tanks as well which also have HC carpets...they too are also pearling heavily now and the HC is growing very fast. Comparing the new HC growth to the existing remaining green growth the new growth is much more vibrant light green.


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## KeeperOfASilentWorld (Mar 18, 2017)

https://barrreport.com/articles/the-estimative-index-of-dosing-or-no-need-for-test-kits.38/
https://barrreport.com/articles/nitrogen-cycling-in-planted-aquariums-volume-1-issue-6-june-2005.20/
https://barrreport.com/articles/pho...horticulture-volume-2-issue-1-january-2006.5/
https://barrreport.com/articles/pot...acrophytes-volume-1-issue-9-september-2005.8/
https://barrreport.com/articles/met...ioxide-co2-volume-1-issue-10-october-2005.28/

I would suggest reading these articles for a start. I usually print them out and read them with a highlighter in my hand.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Still amazed by my pearling and growth now all over the missing crucial building block (phosphorous). The glass is developing a dark purple algae though.


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## Teebo (Jul 15, 2015)

Seems like shortly after adding phosphorous to my water column my Buce plants quickly developed tons of holes in their leaves, not sure about the relation but I believe holes in leaves is a potassium deficiency right??


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