# Good substrate for aquascaping/planted tank?



## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

hey everyone. I have a 20 gallon long aquascape that has seachem flourite in it. I do not like this substrate at all for the plants I am trying to grow. I agree it is an excellent substrate for swords and stuff, but not for what I am trying to grow.

Plant list:
Pearlweed, S. Repens, Ludwigia Red, Rotala Indica, Cryptocorne Wendtii, I plan on growing a glosso carpet which flourite has no chance of growing.

My light is a single T5HO 23w. I don't dose ferts and I don't do CO2. 

I mainly came here because I ran into a huge roadblock with my plants, because very few plants show signs of new growth. My rotala indica is the only one that shows signs of growth.

The tank is 4 months old and already established, I am considering tearing it down and restarting with a new substrate because I just CANT grow plants well. I bought some root tabs about a couple days ago and still have seen no signs of growth. I came here to ask what a good substrate would be? I really want some corydoras/corycats. 

My current species list is: 3 dwarf neon rainbowfish, 3 endlers, a couple guppies and 2 panda platies. I know it's an odd mix but the guppies and platies were on sale. My FUTURE stocking plan is 5-6 rainbowfish, 4-5 cories, 4-5 endlers. Oh I also have a BN albino pleco. 

I really want to get a new substrate soon as possible. I uploaded some pictures of my ludwigia and how they just don't flourish. I look at other tanks online and they all have this thick overtaking green look on the plants, (or red in this case of ludwigia). My plants just don't have that. They aren't thick. Thanks


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

Any of the ada line series


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

StrungOut said:


> Any of the ada line series


very specific. thanks.

Ada amazonia? I found a 9L bag for $54 on [Ebay Link Removed] Is that a good price? shipping on ADA website is ridiculous


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> hey everyone. I have a 20 gallon long aquascape that has seachem flourite in it. I do not like this substrate at all for the plants I am trying to grow. I agree it is an excellent substrate for swords and stuff, but not for what I am trying to grow.
> 
> Plant list:
> Pearlweed, S. Repens, Ludwigia Red, Rotala Indica, Cryptocorne Wendtii, I plan on growing a glosso carpet which flourite has no chance of growing.
> ...


Hi cooledwhip,

I'm not sure that changing the substrate is going to resolve your problem, the issue may be the light spectrum of your light fixture and/or bulbs (or LEDs). A great deal of what we "see" in the way of color is the result of the spectrum of the light we are viewing it in. For example something seen at noon outdoors in full sun can look substantially different indoors in the evening with lights on. Ever notice the difference between incandescent and florescent lights?

Here is an example I did on my 30 gallon, one picture was taken with a 6700K florescent lamp and the other with a lamp of about 9350K. The camera was not moved nor were any of the setting changed....of course the fish moved! -lol

6700K (more 'green' and 'yellow')









9350K (notice the difference in the reds?)


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

UGHGHHGH. I just bought new lights... They are 6500K single T5HO bulb lights. What lights do you use for your aquarium? Mainly the first picture. I'm tired of cheaping out on lights. The ones I have aren't even for fish. Should I try using a new bulb for my light? Is it my fixture and it's not enough power or is it my bulb? 

I really think it is my substrate. How long does flourite usually provide nutrients for? You can notice my plants are all decaying in parts and just aren't full leaves like yours are. I'll try a new light, but if that doesn't work then I will switch to ADA amazonia soil. What light would you recommend


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## DennisSingh (Nov 8, 2004)

cooledwhip said:


> very specific. thanks.
> 
> Ada amazonia? I found a 9L bag for $54 on [Ebay Link Removed] Is that a good price? shipping on ADA website is ridiculous


Any of them, malaya and africana is good for starters as requires less water changes less leach nh4, but also less "booming growth" that you get from amazonina in the first month, but your likely to get more algae without water changes and other problems. If your light is too high it will not matter what you personally would do.


but i agree with Seattle Aquariast


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Thanks. Should I upgrade lighting then? I don't know if I should get better lighting now and wait or if I sh ould get the substrate and change it out now.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi cooledwhip,

I see you have a 20 long (30"); how many bulbs and what wattage does your fixture hold? If it is two bulbs maybe just change out one and see if you like the improvement. The first picture (above) has 6700K bulbs, similar to what you just purchased. I would recommend Super Flora Giesemann PowerChrome T5(HO) to enhance the reds and blues assuming your lamps are 39 watt. Do a Google search and find the best supplier for you also some LFS stock Giesemann. If you like the improvement one lamp makes then maybe purchase a second; lighting is very much a personal choice.

Actually Seachem Flourite is just a little better than gravel, it does provide limited micro-nutrients but none of the macro-nutrients like nitrogen, potassium, and phosphates nor does it provide much in the way of calcium or magnesium. As with most substrates we need to add those nutrients to the water column. ADA Aquasoils (i.e. Amazona) do contain nutrients but they are used up in about a year and then nutrients need to be added to the water column.

I use a calcined clay products in all of my tanks. It has a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) which allows it to absorb nutrients from the water column and release them in the root zone of the plants. The good news is a 40# bag is about $6.49 (Tractor Supply Company) the bad news it is very dusty and the first wash takes 3-5 rinses per bucket.

10 gallon with Safe-T-Sorb #7941 (6700K lamps)


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi cooledwhip,
> 
> I see you have a 20 long (30"); how many bulbs and what wattage does your fixture hold? If it is two bulbs maybe just change out one and see if you like the improvement. The first picture (above) has 6700K bulbs, similar to what you just purchased. I would recommend Super Flora Giesemann PowerChrome T5(HO) to enhance the reds and blues assuming your lamps are 39 watt. Do a Google search and find the best supplier for you also some LFS stock Giesemann. If you like the improvement one lamp makes then maybe purchase a second; lighting is very much a personal choice.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the information. This is the exact light I have: HTG Supply - GrowBright 2 Foot 1 Lamp High Output T5

It's a single T5... I was told on other forums that this is OVERKILL. I was surprised when I was suggested using incandescents or even a single T8. So are you saying that my substrate is okay for growing the plants? 

Let me elaborate on something. I grow a lot of plants immersed and make a lot of plant life with that. I use daylight and just have plastic tupperwear boxes with dirt and plants and the roots are crazy. I can put some DHG in a corner of the tub and have it cover like 30% of the entire box with in a week or two. When I put the plants back in my tank now that they are super strong and healthy, they just get all cruddy and crappy leaves within a week or so so I move them back into the immersed setup. The plants don't grow roots in my tank either, but when I pull them out of the dirt setup they have massive roots.

Can plants even carpet with flourite? It seems like it's too big. I'd be happy to stay with flourite but like I said I don't know if I would be able to grow my plants. I might upgrade my lighting again, but I'm waiting for your reply. 

I might actually try a new bulb, the one I have now is 6400K.


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## f1sleepy (May 1, 2016)

When you transfer an immersed grown plant to a tank, it will take time to transition to healthy submersed growth. Your plants will often die off a bit and lose the old immersed growth before reestablishing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> Thanks for all the information. This is the exact light I have: HTG Supply - GrowBright 2 Foot 1 Lamp High Output T5
> 
> It's a single T5... I was told on other forums that this is OVERKILL. I was surprised when I was suggested using incandescents or even a single T8. So are you saying that my substrate is okay for growing the plants?
> 
> ...


Hi cooledwhip,

OK, so it is not really an aquarium light more a light for emersed growing of plants.....but it should work fine. A single bulb should be sufficient to give you high light with PAR likely over 100. Based upon the information on the light fixture I would use the Geisemann Super Flora T5 24w lamp in that fixture.

With PAR over 100 that is a lot of light....are you running CO2? If not are you supplementing the tank with a liquid carbon product like Seachem Excel or API CO2 Booster? Also what are you currently fertiling the plants with? If you don't have CO2 then even with a liquid carbon supplement you may have to run a shortened photo-period to avoid an algae farm.

If you are relying on the Seachem Flourite to provide the nutrients that is likely a large part of the problem. How well do your emersed plants grow without nutrients, I know mine do poorly. If you are not fertilizing macro and micro nutrients you will need to start.

I too grow about 25+ species emersed and f1sleepy is correct that it takes some time for emersed grown plants or stems to grow in a submerged environment due to the thickness of the cuticle layer of the leaves. Any leaves that form after being submerged should grow at a "normal" rate if they get sufficient light and nourishment.

Just a small section of the 2 each four foot plant shelves with emersed species that I grow.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Ok. I think it is the lamp and I agree with you. I will use a new bulb and try that out. I do have CO2 like I said and I have tried seachem excel but I just get hair algae. I have a DIY co2 system that works great, and a paintball adapter CO2 system. I have a bubble diffuser thing. I could try using either again but I want your suggestion first.

BTW are those soda bottles capped or something? Ill send some pictures of how I do my setup. I will tell you this, I bought a PETRI DISH SIZED CUP of glossostigma, and now I can say I have yielded about 10x more than I purchased. I will set up lots more of these box setups so I can sell my profits online.

I'll post some pics of my setup:


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

I take plastic shoeboxes or tubberwear containers and fill them about an inch or two with miracle grow organic choice soil. (the orange bag). I fill damp the soil, then fill it up with water just so it is about at the very top of the soil. Plant the plants, spray them with a water mist. Then I take plastic wrap or cling wrap and wrap the box top-bottom twice. I use electrical tape to tape it off and then I let it sit and don't ever touch it/open it. Here are some pics. I am actually trying to have my glosso carpet out in a 2.5 scape, I am using flourite and I am using an immersed setup but I am having no luck. I guess it really is the soil that makes the difference. I might try a different substrate for the 2.5 scape.

Bump:

Bump: http://imgur.com/a/SRIGa


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi cooledwhip,

The Miracle Grow Organic Choice has chicken manure in it, there is the fertilizer we were talking about and why your emersed growth is so good. What are you fertilizing your 20 gallon long with?

Changing the lamp in the fixture will help enhance the reds and blues and cut back the brightness of the yellows and greens compared to what you are using now but to get growth out of the plants fertilizer is a necessity....especially with that much light intensity.

I like your set-up for emersed growth, and I agree that leaving them alone is the best thing once they are set up.

-Roy


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## 3rdworldmon (Jul 22, 2015)

Chime in. You can get a 9L Amazonia for $48 shipped. That is on a*azon.com


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi cooledwhip,
> 
> The Miracle Grow Organic Choice has chicken manure in it, there is the fertilizer we were talking about and why your emersed growth is so good. What are you fertilizing your 20 gallon long with?
> 
> ...


I haven't been fertilizing my 20 long. I went out on thursday and put bought some seachem root tabs and put those in since. I can start dosing excel, should i? Every other day? Thanks


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## sushant (Mar 3, 2007)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Just a small section of the 2 each four foot plant shelves with emersed species that I grow.


This is cool, is there a journal on how this is done

Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi cooledwhip,

I would certainly dose the Seachem Excel as directed, and the Flourish Tabs will help some, but with the amount of light you have I think you will need more fertilizer than just root tabs. I suggest doing some reading on dosing dry fertilizers using the Estimative Index (EI) method, the cost of using Seachem products for nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus can get really expensive really fast and dosing dry fertilizers is substantially less expensive.

I look forward to seeing how things progress for you, if you have any questions just ask!
-Roy


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

3rdworldmon said:


> Chime in. You can get a 9L Amazonia for $48 shipped. That is on a*azon.com


I plan on buying that substrate for some micro scapes eventually. Have you ever had any luck with it? thanks for the info.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi cooledwhip,
> 
> I would certainly dose the Seachem Excel as directed, and the Flourish Tabs will help some, but with the amount of light you have I think you will need more fertilizer than just root tabs. I suggest doing some reading on dosing dry fertilizers using the Estimative Index (EI) method, the cost of using Seachem products for nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorus can get really expensive really fast and dosing dry fertilizers is substantially less expensive.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Where can I get these chemicals? On Ebay? I looked at the dry dosing thing. I can for sure do that but I don't want to buy the wrong chemical or something.

If I did that, I would be doing the seachem excel, plus the dry chems. Also someone on another forum suggested using CO2 again.


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## sevendust111 (Jul 15, 2014)

I am currently growing s repens and pearlweed in fluorite with no problem. Just shove the base of the plant in the flourite. Or get those metal plant ties and wrap 4-5 pieces of pearl weed together and shove the tie under.

Get the ei diy liquids from nilocg.com. Good price and the dose recommendation is for 20 gallons


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> Thanks. Where can I get these chemicals? On Ebay? I looked at the dry dosing thing. I can for sure do that but I don't want to buy the wrong chemical or something.
> 
> If I did that, I would be doing the seachem excel, plus the dry chems. Also someone on another forum suggested using CO2 again.


Hi cooledwhip,

I haved used aquariumfertilzer.com as my source for dry fertilizers for several years, the quality is good and they ship on time. Basically the three chemicals you need are:
Potassium nitrate
Mono Potassium Phosphate
Nutritrace (CSM+Boron) for Micronutrients

Optional: Potassium Sulfate

Occasionally I dose some magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) but I purchase that at the local grocery/drug store.


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## nardvark (Apr 14, 2016)

I really like my finnex planted plus 24/7 light gives you everything 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

I'm on their website now. Is it the macro mix or what? There are lots of different options. I plan on buying these for my 20 gallon too. How long do they usually last you? Also should I add these, then wait, then add the seachem excel or do it all at once? Thanks


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi cooledwhip,
> 
> I see you have a 20 long (30"); how many bulbs and what wattage does your fixture hold? If it is two bulbs maybe just change out one and see if you like the improvement. The first picture (above) has 6700K bulbs, similar to what you just purchased. I would recommend Super Flora Giesemann PowerChrome T5(HO) to enhance the reds and blues assuming your lamps are 39 watt. Do a Google search and find the best supplier for you also some LFS stock Giesemann. If you like the improvement one lamp makes then maybe purchase a second; lighting is very much a personal choice
> 
> ...




BTW I'm looking for a new lamp since my current bulb is only 6400k and it was what came with the light fixture. I think I have 23W fixtures.


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

cooledwhip said:


> I'm on their website now. Is it the macro mix or what? There are lots of different options. I plan on buying these for my 20 gallon too. How long do they usually last you? Also should I add these, then wait, then add the seachem excel or do it all at once? Thanks


Hi cooledwhip,

I gave you a list of the three (optional 4) fertilizers to purchase in post #22 of this thread as well as a link to the page; no it is not the macro mix; scroll down further.

Bump:


cooledwhip said:


> BTW I'm looking for a new lamp since my current bulb is only 6400k and it was what came with the light fixture. I think I have 23W fixtures.


Hi cooledwhip,

All T5HO bulbs (lamps) of the nominial 24" length are rated 24 watts. The Geisemann Super Flora T5 24w @ $19.99 that I provided the link for in post #8 of this thread should give you the 'pop' in reds and blues you are looking for.


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

I bought the three fertilizers you suggested. How do I measure them out? What do you do? Do you just measure each one out individually each time a week or do you put them into mixtures so it's ready to go and there is no measuring involved each day?

10- 20 Gallon Aquariums
+/- 1/8 tsp KN03 (N) 3x a week 
+/- 1/32 tsp KH2P04 (P) 3x a week
+/- 1/32 tsp (2ml) Trace Elements 3x a week
50% weekly water change


How do I measure 1/32 tsp. :/


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## Seattle_Aquarist (Jun 15, 2008)

Hi cooledwhip,

Dash, Pinch, Smidgen measuring spoons; 1/8 tsp, 1/16 tsp, 1/32 tsp available online and kitchen shops.....don't pay more than $5


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## cooledwhip (Apr 3, 2016)

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi cooledwhip,
> 
> Dash, Pinch, Smidgen measuring spoons; 1/8 tsp, 1/16 tsp, 1/32 tsp available online and kitchen shops.....don't pay more than $5


Thanks very much. Just bought one on amazon that had a tad and a drop as well for $6. Eh.

Also I don't know if you have been following my other thread about my 45 gallon super tall? I want to use a sand substrate and don't know what type to use. I plan on dirting the bottom, just a little bit of dirt though not a lot. I'll try to find the thread but I don't know how to find threads I have posted so I have to re look for them.

Bump: Found the way to find old posts. Here it is: 

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12-tank-journals/1043074-my-first-proffesional-tank-45-gallon-show-tall-tank.html


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