# Best LED mix for freshwater



## Larry Grenier (Apr 19, 2005)

I'd like to do something similar. I did a string of blue leds on my reef and it really rocks! I'm thnking for my planted tank I might do a combination of XP-G which is around 5-8K and cool white XR-E which is around 6.5K. Not sure about the red. I got mine at Rapidleds.


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## Baadboy11 (Oct 28, 2009)

Last I looked into this, nobody is producing a high power red led in the 660ish range. Or if they are we can't get it yet. (may be wrong) Is this for looks or plant growth cause if its for looks then that wont matter much!


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Plants grow when they have enough light, whether the spectrum is close to matching that graph or not. Pick what looks best to you. But, I don't know how you can do that without first building the fixture. If the LEDs are not closely spaced, the red or blue LEDs will give you colored spots on the substrate. If I were to do this again I might mix cool and warm white, but not add any red or blue ones.


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## Larry Grenier (Apr 19, 2005)

Hoppy said:


> Plants grow when they have enough light, whether the spectrum is close to matching that graph or not. Pick what looks best to you. But, I don't know how you can do that without first building the fixture. If the LEDs are not closely spaced, the red or blue LEDs will give you colored spots on the substrate. If I were to do this again I might mix cool and warm white, but not add any red or blue ones.


Similar to what I said, skip the reds and just alternate the whites so you don't see the different colors at different parts of the tank. I'd also use 60 or 80degree optics which spreads the light rather than having narrowowly fucused bright spots.


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

Baadboy11 said:


> Last I looked into this, nobody is producing a high power red led in the 660ish range.


Well, I found a 660nm 1W LED on fleabay, but it is of Chinese origin. And a 440nm 1W LED too.

On second thought, mixing those crazy LED colors would make the tank look ugly. Maybe an alteration of warm and cool CREE whites would be enough. Also I have noticed a new type of XP-G LEDs - the 90-CRI, did anyone had a chance to use them?


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## tzen (Dec 31, 2008)

I am getting ready to plunge in to LEDs (I love the driver you linked to recently, Hoppy), and had a similar question. What do those who have done DIY LEDs think about the pleasantness of the color? Does it seem fairly flat and monochromatic? What would you do to make it look better?


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

You get used to whatever light you use, so even though it may appear to wash out the colors on the first look, it soon looks normal. I used all cool white LEDs, and it does wash out the colors a bit. I suspect that a mix of warm and cool white would look better, but I haven't tried it. As LEDs get better, there will very likely be some better choices to make.


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## Jenya (Dec 8, 2010)

I am in a similar bind: want to make a light for wife's 9 gallon ADA tank as a Christmas gift. The tank is roughly 18"x9"x9". How many LEDs would I need? Would it be possible to create an appealing light spectrum? How many lumens should I target? Would using two of a Cree PAR-38 assemblies create too much of a spot-light effect? Where is a good place to buy everything? Is there a one-place stop shop where LEDs, heatsinks, and whatever else is needed can be ordered from?


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

Jenya said:


> Is there a one-place stop shop where LEDs, heatsinks, and whatever else is needed can be ordered from?


I think that you will need 7-10 Cree XP-G "outdoor white" at 350mA. Unfortunately there is no one-place shop (maybe RapidLED.com), because you need soldering stuff (soldering iron, solder, etc.), LED stuff and metal.


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## Jenya (Dec 8, 2010)

MosMike said:


> I think that you will need 7-10 Cree XP-G "outdoor white" at 350mA. Unfortunately there is no one-place shop (maybe RapidLED.com), because you need soldering stuff (soldering iron, solder, etc.), LED stuff and metal.


Thank you for the reply. Could you elaborate why you specifically say "outdoor white". From my research I saw people using cool white or a mix of cool whites with warm whites. Are outdoor whites give a pleasant spectrum without having to mix? 

Also, you say that I should get 7-10 of those. Ten would give something 1300 lumens. I was thinking I would need on the order of 3000. Am I mistaken?

As for the soldering stuff, I already have the iron and the solder. I am fairly electronically literate (build hifi vacuum tube amps as a hobby). I guess, LEDs, heatsink, and maybe a power supply is all I am looking for to buy at first.

Jenya


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

Outdoor whites give a spectrum similar to cool+warm. In my 15G tank I have 12 neutral white @ 350mA + 2 Royal Blue and it is a little bit too much.

You can buy a 700mA LED driver with dimming and fine tune the LEDs.


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## Jenya (Dec 8, 2010)

Thanks for clarifications. I am having the hardest time trying to find a place that sells XP-G outdoor. Digikey sells them in minimum quantities of 1000 only.

Are the heatsinks from RapidLED a good way to go for this?


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## Baadboy11 (Oct 28, 2009)

Check ebay too, lots of cheap surplus heatsinks there.


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

So, I have carefully studied the docs and the conclusion is that Outdoor whites are not suitable for a planted tank - they have a low kelvin rating and color rendering index.

Neutral white are better - they can be found in 5000k with a "typical CRI" of 80. It's bad that the cool whites are not sorted by kelvins.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Cree LEDs are sorted by bins, where each bin is for a small range of lumen outputs, and by chromaticity, which is roughly the color temperature. A typical Cree LED would be the XR-E Q2 WC, with Q2 being the bin number and WC the chromaticity range. That particular one is the $3 apiece one on DealExtreme and is about a 6500K color temperature.


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

That's right, but I wouldn't trust DealExtreme specs on the LED. I have contacted Cree distributors and the rule is: the more specific chromaticity you want, the more expensive is the LED. Usually Cree sells reels with a certain lumen output but a lottery for chromaticity.

If I understand correctly, the general consensus is that 6500k is best for a freshwater planted tank ? So I should look for cool white XP-G WC or XP-G "1A 1B 1C 1D" LEDs ?


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

Look on Ebay, buy 5 metre waterproof LED strip along with transformers. All you have to do it connect the two wire ends which is easy enough with a twist tie and doesn't require any soldering. Stick it to the underside of your hood, plug the transformer into a plug-in-timer, easy, done, cheap.

I'd recommend the 5050 super high-output high-efficiency ones which have 60 diodes per metre (or secondly the 3528), to give you 300 LED diodes per 5m spool. (They're not as high output as CREE's but they also don't run as hot and therefore don't require a heatsink(. A spool with transformer will run you about $60. Some of them are listed at producing 400-450 lumens per metre (or 7 lumens per diode), and consuming 14.4 watts per metre. They're not as bright as Crees, but if it's the same cost and efficiency to use hundreds of these as it is for a few dozen CREE's then that's rather irrelevant.Anyone have any idea how that compares to say 2 florescent watts per gallon though? The 5050's are supposed to last 10,000 hours, and I think I read that they're still producing more than 90% of their rated output after a year, which is far superior to any other type of lights inluding florescent.

I have a combination of warm-white and cool-white on my tank. I prefer the look of the warm-white much better, but have it combined with cool-white for now. I'm not exactly sure which one is better for plants, but having seen the spectral analysis for each, they both seemed to have a decent spectrum to cover the appropriate necessary wavelengths. They had similar light output across most of the spectrum but the cool-whites have an enormous output spike in the bluish range. I'm testing this out on a small tank right now myself, while I'm planning out a larger 200-300 gallon tank. For that tank I know that to achieve 2 watts per gallon, I'd need 5 spools, but as those are LED watts instead of florescent watts that might still be overkill. I had an Ecoxotic Stunner Strip on my small test tank, but took it off as I actually prefer the LED strips I bought myself no Ebay.

The Spectral Graphs for standard warm white and cool white LED's are at this link - http://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-b...pcool_warm.htm And I'd heard the following: 

Plants have two types of chlorophyll: A and B. Chlorophyll A absorbs light at 405 and 640 nm. Chlorophyll B has peak absorptions at 440 and 620 nm. Plant lamps are designed to emit light at red wavelengths to duplicate the light of the sun, but too much red color can cause aquatic plants to grow tall and thin. For best results, use a daylight (5000K) lamp in combination with an actinic white or actinic day lamp.

But I'd also seen statements elsewhere which use slightly different numbers, and it's obviously not as if plants only use a single wavelength of light. I'd also seen 420 mentioned as the peak absorption point for chlorophyll A, and that chlorophyll can use light from 400-550 nm and 650-700 nm. So perhaps we all need to look at this matter a little more closely. 

In any case, LED lights do provide some light in the red and blue parts of the spectrum which plants utilize. Personally, in terms of how it made the tank itself look, I prefer warm-white over cool-white, or at least a combination of the two. It would be easy enough as well to add some supplementary bars or strips of red, blue, and/or ultra violet LED's to provide some additional coverage at those points in the spectrum, but you probably would not want to make that the predominant lighting in your aquarium as it might make it look a bit funny. You can inexpensively get 5 metre spools which have alternating red, green, and blue LED's even, and they have some of those that are controlled by remote controls so you should be able turn off the greens if your plants aren't going to use that and if you don't happen to like the look of your plants looking intensely green!

As for myself, I just received my latest supplementary LED lights, which include small wands of Red and Blue, but I'm yet to have a chance to attach them to my hood to see how they look. I'm thinking that perhaps I should have tried to find a wand of ultra-violet as well though. 

I'm actually going to be working with a lighting designer shortly to light almost my entire house extension indirectly with warm-white LED's hidden in alcoves, so I'm confident they are up to the task of lighting a tank, if you use enough of them. With each, that would give you 300 individual LED diodes, and it's not as if the photons from LED lighting are different than the photons of any other lights, in contrast to what some had practically suggested elsewhere (in suggesting LED light won't penetrate as deeply).


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

*Mxx*
Been there, done that. Those 5050s are less efficient than XP-Gs, the ebay variety is pure lottery regarding flux and tint and they won't last as long as good quality LEDs. 
Those flexible strings are designed for decoration purposes, not for lighting.


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## Jenya (Dec 8, 2010)

So, I guess, it is a no-go with LED lighting until Cree, or somebody else, comes up with high CRI LEDs above 6500K. 

Jenya


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## Mxx (Dec 29, 2010)

MosMike said:


> *Mxx*
> Been there, done that. Those 5050s are less efficient than XP-Gs, the ebay variety is pure lottery regarding flux and tint and they won't last as long as good quality LEDs.
> Those flexible strings are designed for decoration purposes, not for lighting.





Jenya said:


> So, I guess, it is a no-go with LED lighting until Cree, or somebody else, comes up with high CRI LEDs above 6500K.
> 
> Jenya


I found a graph which shows the spectrum of light that chlorophyll does actually use, albeit chlorophyll taken from a stony coral. I'm not sure if there is any difference between coral chlorophyll and plant chlorophyll, but I would be surprised if there was. 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2007...searchterm=led
(It's the graph in the section entitled Photosynthetically Usable Radiation. 

This spectrum utilized by chlorophyll actually seems to mirror the spectrum of light produced by warm and cool white LEDs much more closely than I had expected. As such, perhaps it comes down to finding a light combination which we happen to find most appealing ourselves, as it is in any case already meeting the plant's requirements quite well?

MosMike - The Ebay ones are one example. There are also many other sources of waterproof LED tape/strips if you have a look around, many designed for use in commercial application such as retail lighting. But any LED lighting may very well be manufactured using the same diodes produced en masse in China. Personally I'd be surprised if they actually differed that much nowadays. When did you do yours? You're free to use XP-G's and Crees if value is no object though. 

Jenya, I'm personally quite happy with the colour rendering of my combination of cool & warm white LEDs. Although the white LED do produce a decent amount of colour in each of the red green blue ranges, you could equalize that out even further with an RGB LED strip, particularly if you're starting with warm-white LED's as with cool whites you might otherwise end up with too much blue and looking a little washed out. 

And the cool whites in particular do produce a great deal of light in the 6500K wavelength you mention. If you want to add light above that then it's certainly easy enough to supplement your lighting with additional LED strips of ultra-violet light, which tend to have an average peak colour of around 375-405 nm, (8000-7400K). 315-400 nm is considered to be the 'blacklight' part of the UV spectrum with the wavelengths below that being the dangerous ones. Nevertheless, it is suggested that you do no stare into a UV LED. 

That's the great thing about LED's in any case, they can be small, flexible, and inexpensive so that you can weave in whatever extra colours you want to fill out the spectrum as you see fit. 

P.S. To convert back and forth between NM and K, divide by 3,000,000.


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

Jenya said:


> So, I guess, it is a no-go with LED lighting until Cree, or somebody else, comes up with high CRI LEDs above 6500K.
> Jenya


Just the opposite!
What is the CRI of typical T5 bulbs for aquariums? 82-85 CRI
So you can use cool white LEDs and add some 90-CRI LEDs to achieve the same effect.

LEDs can't beat the >4000k 98 CRI bulbs though. Like the ADA 8000k lamp


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## rhinotam0405 (Mar 15, 2010)

SO then can you even accomplish enough lighting for a 150 with just LED's if you have lower light plants? I am starting over with lighting for a 150 and need someone to tell me what i need :help: The only lights are the basic florescents that came with the tank (not set up yet).


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

Because you need a uniform grid of LEDs over most of the top of the tank, to get good lighting, in my opinion, the cost goes up with the square of the tank size, if not even more. And, for a 30 inch high tank, they would have to be very close together to get enough light at the substrate, again raising the cost with the square of the tank size.

My 36 x 14 tank foot print is getting 39 LEDs, but a 72 x 18 would need either substantially more powerful LEDs or 110 of the LEDs I'm using. Then increase that by another factor of two to get enough light at 30 inches, and you have 220 of them needed. That isn't going to be cheap! Of course the cost of the aluminum for heatsinks goes up that fast too, as does the cost of the LED drivers. And, using more powerful LEDs means bigger and more LED drivers, better heatsinks, and much more expensive LEDs.


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## S&KGray (Nov 12, 2008)

You should also be able to increase the LED drive current and/or use optics to get enough light to the substrate of a 30 inch high tank besides using more LEDs closer together.


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## Hoppy (Dec 24, 2005)

S&KGray said:


> You should also be able to increase the LED drive current and/or use optics to get enough light to the substrate of a 30 inch high tank besides using more LEDs closer together.


Yes, you can increase the LED drive current to get more light per LED. Then you run into problems getting rid of the heat from the LEDs, meaning you need a more serious heatsink. With the lower current the heatsink cost is much lower, and the light fixture is much lighter in weight. The more powerful LEDs from Cree seem to gain the power primarily by operating at higher currents, up to 1500 mAmps, which also means more expensive heatsinks.

This may be the economical way to go - I haven't tried to design a light with those high power LEDs, so I'm not sure. But, 1.5 amps requires a much bigger, more costly LED driver too, and I don't recall seeing a Meanwell driver that would handle strings of them in series or parallel strings of them.

This kind of reminds me of the early days of personal computers, when no one could have dreamed of the capabilities now routinely available in PCs. If that is any guide, within a few years LEDs will reach into completely new territory. And what if they were combined with fiber optics?


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## [email protected] (Jul 17, 2008)

Hoppy said:


> within a few years LEDs will reach into completely new territory. And what if they were combined with fiber optics?


Fiber optics and LED are already combined in some commercial applications. They are used for lighting things like art where you want the piece lit as well as can be, but no ambient light around it. You can illuminate a painting but leave the frame unlit and there is no danger of the light degrading the art work. And, of course these come with art gallery or museum grade prices.


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## MosMike (Dec 4, 2010)

rhinotam0405 said:


> SO then can you even accomplish enough lighting for a 150 with just LED's if you have lower light plants?


I see no problems here. The choice will depend on the placement of the plants. With LEDs it is possible to light select spots in the tank.

Another possibility - a high power cluster in the center of the tank w/o optics and strings of LEDs with optics on the perimeter.

Today I have desoldered the red and blue LEDs from my fixture and the result is much better - no more red-blue shadows.


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## redfishsc (Aug 29, 2010)

Since I've kept LEDs over both reefs and planted aquaria, and have seen nearly every LED color temp we commonly use, here's what I recommend for a good middle-range look. 


If you prefer the crisp, clear, bluebird day look of the Amano and ADA tanks, you definitely want some blue LEDs. Use a 1:2 ratio royal blue and neutral white (Cree XPE/XPG or Luxeon Rebels).


If you like the warm, sunny look, just use a combination of cool white and neutral white LEDs (again, Cree XPG or Luxeon Rebels).


The best places I've seen to get these LEDs are these places (some who cater largely to reef keepers)

www.ledgroupbuy.com (the cheapest by far but you have a long wait after ordering).

www.rapidled.com

www.ledsupply.com

www.cutter.com.au

Nanotuners.com (just started carrying some VERY nice Thomas Reference dimmable drivers)




rhinotam0405 said:


> SO then can you even accomplish enough lighting for a 150 with just LED's if you have lower light plants? I am starting over with lighting for a 150 and need someone to tell me what i need :help: The only lights are the basic florescents that came with the tank (not set up yet).



Yes, you can definitely do this. I couldn't give you an exact number so you'll want to use dimmable drivers. 

I assume your 150 is a 6 foot tank, you'll probably need around 50-60 LEDs total if you use Cree XPG. 

You could also order some of the lovely Bridgelux 402 LEDs from digikey.com and use half as many (they are about twice as powerful and cost only a little more... just a touch less efficient but that's no big deal.)


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

I have ordered 35W driver from DX and 5 warm white and 5 white from Bay, all in all about 40$. I intend to light up low tech 25g with CRS and snails. Its a 2$ per led , but for this application it will be ok. I was thinking of making cover all in glass, so all heatsinks and wires would be seen. But for that i need 10 same heatsinks, i dont know if i would find them.


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## redfishsc (Aug 29, 2010)

If your driver doesn't run them at a very high current (meaning, not over 700mA) you can use any aluminum product that's over 1/8" thick, preferably 1/4" thick. You can probably find aluminum C channel at a local metal place, or maybe even at Lowes. 


A computer fan will help with heat dissipation as well. Just blow it across the aluminum.


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

redfishsc said:


> If your driver doesn't run them at a very high current (meaning, not over 700mA) you can use any aluminum product that's over 1/8" thick, preferably 1/4" thick. You can probably find aluminum C channel at a local metal place, or maybe even at Lowes.
> 
> 
> A computer fan will help with heat dissipation as well. Just blow it across the aluminum.



Tnx , im gonna think of something.

this is driver










leds are 3.5V, 3W, 740mA


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## Milad LEDGroupBuy.com (Jan 29, 2011)

majstor76 said:


> Tnx , im gonna think of something.
> 
> this is driver
> 
> ...


if you look at the driver, it says 9-12 @ 670mA
that means the voltage is 9v-12v range and gives out 670mA

Your LEDs having 3.5v you can only have 3 LEDs in a string and run them at 670mA. (3.5v x 3 = 10.5 which is between the voltage range of the driver (9-12))

So having 3 in series, you are running those LEDs at 670mA which is a little high for those LEDs. That is 90% of the LEDs max amperage. In most cases you want to run them at 70% of the max amperage for a good light to longevity ratio. The driver should have a little screw that you can turn it down with. 

But as you can see with the above formula, the better LEDs you get the cheaper it is to power and the less electricity they use. If you get the new CREE XM-L, you can run 4 of them with the same driver and run them at 740mA and they will output more light than the LEDs you listed above.

The XM-L spec is 2.9v at 700mA with a max amperage of 3000mA (Wowzers!)

btw im from www.LEDGroupBuy.com so im a little bias because we only sell the most efficient LEDs to save people money in the long run.


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## majstor76 (Jun 11, 2010)

Milad said:


> if you look at the driver, it says 9-12 @ 670mA
> that means the voltage is 9v-12v range and gives out 670mA


No, you have misread something. Where it says (9-12)x3W that means you can connect 9 to 12 pcs of 3W LED-s.
This is data sheet of driver

- 36 watt high power waterproof LED driver
- Input voltage: 85-265V
- *Output voltage: DC28-45V*
- Output current: 670mA


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## Milad LEDGroupBuy.com (Jan 29, 2011)

majstor76 said:


> No, you have misread something. Where it says (9-12)x3W that means you can connect 9 to 12 pcs of 3W LED-s.
> This is data sheet of driver
> 
> - 36 watt high power waterproof LED driver
> ...


you are right, sorry about that. I was reading the sticker and didnt see the "x" symbol

So if the LEDs you are looking at are 3.5v @ 670mA you can put 12 LEDs in a series.


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