# Vermicompost in planted tank substrate?



## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

I've used worm castings in my dirt tank mixes but not as much as you plan to use. The amount of ammonia that's initially released using raw worm castings will melt most plants. Therefore you should hold off on planting until you get the ammonia below 1 ppm. Daily large water changes will help reduce the ammonia. You can also use the ammonia that's released to cycle your bio filter. 

Other than that, you should use sphagnum peat instead of coco peat. The rest sounds good.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

I doubt Sphagnum Peat Moss is available in India. Others have posted they cannot find it.

I also think that is a lot of fertilizer- Laterite is high in iron, perhaps too much. The refined material is used here (USA) in small amounts: a light dusting on the bottom of the tank. Maybe the material you are talking about does not release the iron so fast. 
Worm castings are considered safe in an aquarium, but I agree with Monster Fish: There is going to be a lot of ammonia in the initial filling. 

Do you have tests for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate?


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Well testkits are available here.... and yes I looked around alot but spagnum moss is available but not spagnum peat.... can I convert moss into peat? If yes then how can I do it...?


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## lochaber (Jan 23, 2012)

I'd also consider either avoiding the laterite, or using a much smaller amount. Walstad describes a tank in her book where laterite combined with dirt led to toxic levels of dissolved iron in a tank.

Anyways, if you are set on using the laterite, I wouldn't do much more then a light dusting on the bottom. This is also where I would put your carbonates (your crushed coral), but only a small amount. Not even enough to obscure the bottom of the tank.

I'd probably then add the vermicompost, and then the cocopeat, and cap the whole thing off with your gravel.

This whole method is pretty unprecise, but I'd be hesitant to go much over ~2" (~5cm) of "dirt" type substate, and have at least 2" (~5cm) of inert cap on top of that, depending on the grain size (you might be able to get away with a thinner cap with smaller grained substrate, but on the other hand, you need a thicker cap with larger grained materials)


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> Other than that, you should use sphagnum peat instead of coco peat.


How is this diffrent from regular peat? Aside from not being heavly tannen laden, of what benifit does it bring to adding it to the substrate?


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Kool, then is 1mm of laterite and 2mm of vermicompost then 1" of cocopeat and 1.5" of 2mm size gravels ok? Also can I add powdered cow manure with vermicompost?


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Is dolomite and muriate of potash wprth adding?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> How is this diffrent from regular peat? Aside from not being heavly tannen laden, of what benifit does it bring to adding it to the substrate?


What do you mean by regular peat? Sphagnum peat moss is also known as peat moss in the US. I just added the sphagnum part to differentiate it from coco peat. Peat moss can soften the water and release nutrients once it breaks down. Being from an anaerobic environment, it breaks down a lot slower in nature. Once you introduce it into an aerobic environment with harder water, it will eventually break down at a quicker rate and become more basic.



nanomania said:


> Is dolomite and muriate of potash wprth adding?


Both are alright to use. You don't need to use crushed coral if you the dolomite. Muriate of potash is water soluble so you will need to add more to your tank a few months after flooding.


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## FatherLandDescendant (Jul 24, 2014)

Monster Fish said:


> What do you mean by regular peat? Sphagnum peat moss is also known as peat moss in the US. I just added the sphagnum part to differentiate it from coco peat. Peat moss can soften the water and release nutrients once it breaks down. Being from an anaerobic environment, it breaks down a lot slower in nature. Once you introduce it into an aerobic environment with harder water, it will eventually break down at a quicker rate and become more basic.


I thought Sphagnum was used in planting baskets for retaining water, it's very dry in it's bag, and used to give a more decorative look, what I'm thinking of is light brown almost white in shading.

This stuff: 










Most everything else I've seen listed as peat moss is dark brown and more moist in it's bag, typically used in landscaping, and tends to leach a lot of tannins into the water column. I could only find peat moss in big bales, like 3 cubic yards.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Kool, so finally, can I go for 1mm laterite then 2mm vermicompost then 1" cocopeat and then 1.5" 2mm gravels? Whithout dosing fertz ever? Ill keep bioload high jus as diana walstad stated.. and yes ill dose co2. Also there is organic potting soil available with no chemicals but has manure so im also keeping that as an option... only afraid about ammonia spike....


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

FatherLandDescendant said:


> I thought Sphagnum was used in planting baskets for retaining water, it's very dry in it's bag, and used to give a more decorative look, what I'm thinking of is light brown almost white in shading.
> 
> This stuff:
> 
> ...


The bag you posted is dried long fibered sphagnum moss. It's moss that they've harvested and dried for later use. You are correct in that it is used for retaining water. I use it as a planting medium for my _Drosera_ and _Sarracenia_ seedlings. Being that it is only dried out, you can bring it back to life with some low tds water, high humidity, and high light.

Sphagnum *peat* moss is the stuff commonly sold in large bales at garden centers. It's decayed sphagnum moss and can serve as slow release fertilizer once it breaks down even more. I've used just organic sphagnum peat moss capped with Flourite black sand and I was able to grow a full thick carpet of dwarf hairgrass in my 5 gallon for about two years without dosing any ferts.




nanomania said:


> Kool, so finally, can I go for 1mm laterite then 2mm vermicompost then 1" cocopeat and then 1.5" 2mm gravels? Whithout dosing fertz ever? Ill keep bioload high jus as diana walstad stated.. and yes ill dose co2. Also there is organic potting soil available with no chemicals but has manure so im also keeping that as an option... only afraid about ammonia spike....


You will have to dose potassium once in a while since the fish will replenish the substrate with nitrates and the fish food will supply phosphates. If the organic potting soil has raw manure, you can try mineralizing it to break down the manure some more and to reduce the amount of ammonia released into the tank.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Monster Fish said:


> The bag you posted is dried long fibered sphagnum moss. It's moss that they've harvested and dried for later use. You are correct in that it is used for retaining water. I use it as a planting medium for my _Drosera_ and _Sarracenia_ seedlings. Being that it is only dried out, you can bring it back to life with some low tds water, high humidity, and high light.
> 
> Sphagnum *peat* moss is the stuff commonly sold in large bales at garden centers. It's decayed sphagnum moss and can serve as slow release fertilizer once it breaks down even more. I've used just organic sphagnum peat moss capped with Flourite black sand and I was able to grow a full thick carpet of dwarf hairgrass in my 5 gallon for about two years without dosing any ferts.
> 
> ...


Hey, whats the meaning of mineralizing the soil? I dont know... how to do that?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

You use microbial activity to break down the organics in the soil so it can readily supply nutrients to your plants without the large ammonia spikes. Basically you soak and sun dry the soil several times while turning it over until it is a light, dusty texture and there is little to no noticeable odor. A final sifting is used to remove the debris and you're left with a very fertile soil to use in your aquarium.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=152027


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Does cocopeat work same as spaghnum moss? And for potassium, im plannin to add murite of potash with some crushes corals and laterite...


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Wow amazing article... but I doubt ill get time to do that... what if u jus add java moss and frogbits to cycle tank, I dont ming waiting for a month to cycle... will non mineralized top soil do anyother harm like to fishes and shrimps after cycling is complete? Ill also add a uv for green water issue...


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

Coco peat is good for water retention but doesn't really offer much in nutrients since it takes a long time to break down.

If there's no detectable ammonia and nitrites after a month or two, your tank should be safe. To lower the amount of ammonia initially released by the organic top soil, you should do 50% water changes daily. Fast growers like frogbit will also help suck up the ammonia. Just be aware that elevated levels of ammonia above 2 ppm will melt most plants.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

I jus wont add any fishes or plants in my tank for a month othe than frog bit, duckweeds and java moss... so shud I add some cocopeat powder and normal spaghnum moss ( not peat) will it help?


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## Monster Fish (Mar 15, 2011)

No need for the coco peat or sphagnum moss.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Kool, so finally this is wat m gona do,
First layer dolomite or crushed corals
And muriate of potash
Second topsoil ( will try if I get time to mineralise) mixed with pottery clay little bit.
Third layer ( top) 1.5 to 2 mm gravels 1 to 1.5" 

Total substrate depth will be 2 to 2.5". Lighting iv always used led floods with good results and 1mnths of fishless cycle with floating plants and java moss and then will start adding few plants and after another 15days ( 1.5mnths) will add a hardy fish and few shrimps...


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## AquApproach (Sep 4, 2014)

I've been using just regular potting soil in a few of my tanks and only added about a 1/8 tsp or less of dry chelated iron pellets in the very beginning. But plants have not yellowed, have grown quickly, and have strong roots thus far (they're easy to care for plants---anubias, amazon sword, hygrophila---but still...) 

I did notice that the nitrite levels would spike daily though for the first week or so and I'd do daily 50% water changes (10 gallons of a 20 gal tank). I'm not sure of there is a correlation but I did notice that I hadn't gotten all the little pellets of Osmocote fertilizer that were in the soil and I'm wondering if that has anything to do with it. Aside from the nitrite though everything else was fine. The nitrAtes have even stayed low.

Also, from what I recall, shrimp like really alkaline water, much like the african cichlids I'm housing. Most plants, on the other hand, from what I hear like slightly acidic or neutral pH. I've kept my pH with the fish in mind at around 8.2, with no negative effects on the plants. The soil had to be washed and soaked for 5 days before adding to the tank to limit the staining of the water and a floating mess, and I had to lay some fine grain sand over it to keep the cichlids from digging it up, but all in all, I'm very happy with the results. I am still experimenting with the perfect blend of substrates but soil will probably remain one of the ingredients. Good luck and please keep posting updates. I'm curious to know how yours turns out


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

> First layer dolomite or crushed corals
> And muriate of potash


Remember that all put together you should still see the bottom of the tank when these are lightly sprinkled across the bottom of the tank.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

AquApproach said:


> I've been using just regular potting soil in a few of my tanks and only added about a 1/8 tsp or less of dry chelated iron pellets in the very beginning. But plants have not yellowed, have grown quickly, and have strong roots thus far (they're easy to care for plants---anubias, amazon sword, hygrophila---but still...)
> 
> I did notice that the nitrite levels would spike daily though for the first week or so and I'd do daily 50% water changes (10 gallons of a 20 gal tank). I'm not sure of there is a correlation but I did notice that I hadn't gotten all the little pellets of Osmocote fertilizer that were in the soil and I'm wondering if that has anything to do with it. Aside from the nitrite though everything else was fine. The nitrAtes have even stayed low.
> 
> Also, from what I recall, shrimp like really alkaline water, much like the african cichlids I'm housing. Most plants, on the other hand, from what I hear like slightly acidic or neutral pH. I've kept my pH with the fish in mind at around 8.2, with no negative effects on the plants. The soil had to be washed and soaked for 5 days before adding to the tank to limit the staining of the water and a floating mess, and I had to lay some fine grain sand over it to keep the cichlids from digging it up, but all in all, I'm very happy with the results. I am still experimenting with the perfect blend of substrates but soil will probably remain one of the ingredients. Good luck and please keep posting updates. I'm curious to know how yours turns out


The problem is I stay in india, so all these brands u guys use are not available here... even the potting and top soil are given in loose packets. . No major description on the packets... so im keeping as simple as possible... although many hobbyist here use differents types of soil and even cow manure or vermiculture in the tanks and growing emersed style too... I love runers the most and have grown them in ada amazonia... as iv been nano tanks lover, I had no probs buyin ada but now due to work issues I dont get time to maintain and so goin for 23g experimental tank, and if im sucessful, ill upgrade my 130g turtle tank into a planted tank... im gona get my stuff this weekend and might try to mineralize soil atleast once or twice... yes I will update what n how im doing with pics and make a new post about it...


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Diana said:


> Remember that all put together you should still see the bottom of the tank when these are lightly sprinkled across the bottom of the tank.


Yup im gona do that... is it ok if I add small 2 to 3" broken coral pieces at the bottom? Or is it that they need to be crushed? Also I asked here about top soil, they say topsoil is what u get on the ground first 6" and below that is fill soil... is it true?


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Anyone?


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## AquApproach (Sep 4, 2014)

nanomania said:


> Yup im gona do that... is it ok if I add small 2 to 3" broken coral pieces at the bottom? Or is it that they need to be crushed? Also I asked here about top soil, they say topsoil is what u get on the ground first 6" and below that is fill soil... is it true?


Yea, about there. Maybe even a foot down. Basically it's just the most nutrient rich part of the soil and where the majority of plant roots grow. The fill dirt, or fill soil, is the clay and rock and dense compacted soil that is less conducive to promoting plant growth. It usually lacks trace elements, bio activity, and essential nutrients. Unless conditioned with additives, it's basically just the foundation and supportive medium for plants so they don't get washed or blown away.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Thanks... will find some dealer here... I hope its available at some garden store too here...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here (USA), and perhaps in India:

"topsoil" is anyones guess as to what it really is. 
Originally topsoil was the very fertile layer of soil that has the most activity. Might be just a few inches deep, or several feet. Most active exchange of air and water, best supply of fertilizer from animal droppings and so on. 
Under that top layer is soil that may have a few roots from the strongest plants, and the most mobile of nutrients might make it down there, but it is inferior as a soil. Might be good (in a garden) if you added compost. 
Below that is often bedrock. 

However, in recent years builders use heavy equipment to move the soil around and make or remove hills and valleys before they build houses, streets and so on. 
Whatever they scrape off the top is called 'topsoil' and sold as such. No idea what percentages of sand, silt or clay, no idea about how much organic matter (mostly roots, but other stuff, too). Never mind if someone else already scraped the same hills, or dumped the soil from another phase of the development. 
So, what is sold as 'topsoil' now could be really topsoil, or the layer under that, or even (if really big equipment worked it over) bedrock, ground up to be fine enough to sell as soil. 

Used to be these inferior materials were sold as 'fill soil'. Good enough for some purposes, but not great for planting. Not many places still label their materials that way though. 

In all cases, I would make sure to see, hold and test a sample of whatever you are buying. 
Perhaps you could just go get a bucket of soil from the back yard, or where ever, and it might be just as good as any bagged product. 

If you collect it yourself you need to make sure it has no toxins. 
Do not collect it too near a road, petroleum products leak out of cars and run into the soil. 
Make sure the weeds are growing strongly. If the plants are dead, perhaps someone used a weed killer.


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## nanomania (Jul 19, 2011)

Hey guys, finally I got a few stuff.... and have descided to make 2 tanks....
1) 12lx7wx12h" which will have vermicompost cocopeat few coral at bottom and 2mm gravels..

2) 28lx15wx15h which will have normal soil (they just dont know wether its topsoil or normal soil, all i know it jus simple soil without any added ferts) and 2mm gravel...

Just let me know where should I keep vermicompost layer, at the bottom or between cocopeat and gravel?


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