# Low ammonia, high Nitrites and Nitrates - can't bring them down



## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

have you tested your tap water for nitrates? If you are having trouble reducing nitrates then stop dosing them. Do one water change of 50% with no dosing or ammonia and give it a couple days. Nitrates will continue to build for a couple days after you stop adding ammonia. Then do one more 50% change and check again. They should start coming down.

You will not need to add very much ammonia to keep your bacteria colony thriving. It is processing the ammonia so quickly that you almost cannot register it unless you put giant amounts in and then it just pumps out tons of nitrates. Add just enough that you can still register some nitrate production until you are ready to add some fish. Then as long as you add fish fairly slowly it will build a bigger colony to match the amount of fish load.


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## sousvide (Mar 22, 2015)

I can check the nitrates in my tap water again. I did when I first started but that was quite a while ago - it didn't register.

I'll try what you suggested. 50% water change, no dosing of ammonia. Wait 2 days and 50% change again...and check. After tonight 90% water change, I only added about 3mls of ammonia...just paranoid about losing the biomass.


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

I'm in the middle of a fishless cycle and my nitrites and nitrates are about as high as they can get...ammonia is dropping and it's now almost 0...my understanding is, you don't add any more ammonia or do any type of water changes until you only see NITRATES in your water. Then you add ammonia and check 12-24hrs later and see if it all gets converted directly into nitrates...then do a 80-90% water change and stock your tank with fish.


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## lee739 (Oct 12, 2014)

I think you may have been a bit heavy handed with the hydrogen peroxide - doses I've seen usually show 1-2mL/gallon....
I think high nitrites interfere with the nitrate assay also - so this may be throwing you as well.
When did you start the fishless cycle? - my nitrites appeared at about day 10, and stayed for 2 weeks.....


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Here is the fishless cycle. Read through it and see what the values ought to be, but here is what I see wrong:

Nitrospira is slower growing than the ammonia removing group. If you keep over dosing the ammonia then the the ammonia is going to get turned into nitrite too fast for the Nitrospira to remove. NO2 gets too high and stalls the cycle. Never mind what the NO3 is doing. Not important (except that it shows that some Nitrospira is growing)

Do another big water change to get ammonia and nitrite under 5 ppm, then dose only enough ammonia to keep the nitrite under 5 ppm. You might only be able to dose 1-2 ppm of ammonia for a couple of days until the Nitrospira catch up. Then you can dose 3 ppm ammonia. There is no need to dose more- a fully stocked tank worth of fish will not produce 3 ppm ammonia per day. 

Cycle: To grow the beneficial bacteria that remove ammonia and nitrite from the aquarium.

Fish-In Cycle: To expose fish to toxins while using them as the source of ammonia to grow nitrogen cycle bacteria. Exposure to ammonia burns the gills and other soft tissue, stresses the fish and lowers their immunity. Exposure to nitrite makes the blood unable to carry oxygen. Research methemglobinemia for details. 

Fishless Cycle: The safe way to grow more bacteria, faster, in an aquarium, pond or riparium. 

The method I give here was developed by 2 scientists who wanted to quickly grow enough bacteria to fully stock a tank all at one time, with no plants helping, and overstock it as is common with Rift Lake Cichlid tanks. 

1a) Set up the tank and all the equipment. You can plant if you want. Include the proper dose of dechlorinator with the water. 
Optimum water chemistry:
GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine. 
pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine. 
Temperature in the upper 70s F (mid 20s C) is good. Higher is OK if the water is well aerated. 
A trace of other minerals may help. Usually this comes in with the water, but if you have a pinch of KH2PO4, that may be helpful. 
High oxygen level. Make sure the filter and power heads are running well. Plenty of water circulation. 
No toxins in the tank. If you washed the tank, or any part of the system with any sort of cleanser, soap, detergent, bleach or anything else make sure it is well rinsed. Do not put your hands in the tank when you are wearing any sort of cosmetics, perfume or hand lotion. No fish medicines of any sort. 
A trace of salt (sodium chloride) is OK, but not required. 
This method of growing bacteria will work in a marine system, too. The species of bacteria are different. 

1b) Optional: Add any source of the bacteria that you are growing to seed the tank. Cycled media from a healthy tank is good. Decor or some gravel from a cycled tank is OK. Live plants or plastic are OK. I have even heard of the right bacteria growing in the bio film found on driftwood. (So if you have been soaking some driftwood in preparation to adding it to the tank, go ahead and put it into the tank) Bottled bacteria is great, but only if it contains Nitrospira species of bacteria. Read the label and do not waste your money on anything else. 
At the time this was written the right species could be found in: 
Dr. Tims One and Only
Tetra Safe Start
Microbe Lift Nite Out II
...and perhaps others. 
You do not have to jump start the cycle. The right species of bacteria are all around, and will find the tank pretty fast. 

2) Add ammonia until the test reads 5 ppm. This ammonia is the cheapest you can find. No surfactants, no perfumes. Read the fine print. This is often found at discount stores like Dollar Tree, or hardware stores like Ace. You could also use a dead shrimp form the grocery store, or fish food. Protein breaks down to become ammonia. You do not have good control over the ammonia level, though. 
Some substrates release ammonia when they are submerged for the first time. Monitor the level and do enough water changes to keep the ammonia at the levels detailed below. 

3) Test daily. For the first few days not much will happen, but the bacteria that remove ammonia are getting started. Finally the ammonia starts to drop. Add a little more, once a day, to test 5 ppm. 

4) Test for nitrite. A day or so after the ammonia starts to drop the nitrite will show up. When it does allow the ammonia to drop to 3 ppm. 

5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm. 

6) When the ammonia and nitrite both hit zero 24 hours after you have added the ammonia the cycle is done. You can challenge the bacteria by adding a bit more than 3 ppm ammonia, and it should be able to handle that, too, within 24 hours. 

7) Now test the nitrate. Probably sky high! 
Do as big a water change as needed to lower the nitrate until it is safe for fish. Certainly well under 20, and a lot lower is better. This may call for more than one water change, and up to 100% water change is not a problem. Remember the dechlor!
If you will be stocking right away (within 24 hours) no need to add more ammonia. If stocking will be delayed keep feeding the bacteria by adding ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. You will need to do another water change right before adding the fish.
__________________________

Helpful hints:

A) You can run a fishless cycle in a bucket to grow bacteria on almost any filter media like bio balls, sponges, ceramic bio noodles, lava rock or Matala mats. Simply set up any sort of water circulation such as a fountain pump or air bubbler and add the media to the bucket. Follow the directions for the fishless cycle. When the cycle is done add the media to the filter. I have run a canister filter in a bucket and done the fishless cycle.

B) The nitrogen cycle bacteria will live under a wide range of conditions and bounce back from minor set backs. By following the set up suggestions in part 1a) you are setting up optimum conditions for fastest reproduction and growth.
GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off. 
pH as low as 6.5 is OK, but by 6.0 the bacteria are not going to be doing very well. They are still there, and will recover pretty well when conditions get better. 
Temperature almost to freezing is OK, but they must not freeze, and they are not very active at all. They do survive in a pond, but they are slow to warm up and get going in the spring. This is where you might need to grow some in a bucket in a warm place and supplement the pond population. Too warm is not good, either. Tropical or room temperature tank temperatures are best. (68 to 85*F or 20 to 28*C)
Moderate oxygen can be tolerated for a while. However, to remove lots of ammonia and nitrite these bacteria must have oxygen. They turn one into the other by adding oxygen. If you must stop running the filter for an hour or so, no problem. If longer, remove the media and keep it where it will get more oxygen. 
Once the bacteria are established they can tolerate some fish medicines. This is because they live in a complex film called Bio film on all the surfaces in the filter and the tank. Medicines do not enter the bio film well. 
These bacteria do not need to live under water. They do just fine in a humid location. They live in healthy garden soil, as well as wet locations. 

C) Planted tanks may not tolerate 3 ppm or 5 ppm ammonia. It is possible to cycle the tank at lower levels of ammonia so the plants do not get ammonia burn. Add ammonia to only 1 ppm, but test twice a day, and add ammonia as needed to keep it at 1 ppm. The plants are also part of the bio filter, and you may be able to add the fish sooner, if the plants are thriving.


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## Planted_Edge (Apr 29, 2015)

Great post Diana. When I added the bottle of tetra safe start my nitrates went up although no nitrites were present. 
Amazonia soil released a lot of ammonia already so I only had ammonia and Nitrates...just recently my nitrites went sky high and ammonia dropped to 0.50 ppm

And Tetra Safe Start recommended to pour the bacteria in the tank 24hrs after dechlorinator was used in the tank otherwise it would be worthless cuz the dechlor kills the weak bacteria that's not established yet...they say to not do any water changes during the cycle and just let it be...when everything drops , except nitrates, do a large water change and stock your tank...


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## shloken38 (Aug 17, 2012)

Everything has been addressed, of course. But I do want to chime in on the hydrogen peroxide. You did not kill off your bacteria with the h2o2, unless you used something that was above 3%. Otherwise, 3% perozide can be dosed up to 2.8ml per gallon in your tank with no ill side effects. It will break down to water and hydrogen in 24-48 hours.


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## sousvide (Mar 22, 2015)

Thank so much Diana! The info here is very similar to the info I read. A couple of questions for you (or anyone else)



Diana said:


> ...
> Optimum water chemistry:
> GH and KH above 3 German degrees of hardness. A lot harder is just fine.
> pH above 7, and into the mid 8s is just fine.
> ...


if my params are off (specifically, I have a 6.4 to 6.6 PH or my O2 is low - I don't know how to measure that - I've read it can be difficult) how does this affect the cycle? As far as I can tell, I'm at this point in the cycle (below)...does that mean that even though my params were slightly off, I'm ok thus far?



Diana said:


> ...
> 5) Test daily. Add ammonia to 3 ppm once a day. If the nitrite or ammonia go to 5 ppm do a water change to get these lower. The ammonia removing species and the nitrite removing species (Nitrospira) do not do well when the ammonia or nitrite are over 5 ppm.


I'm now waiting for my nitrite's to drop to a measureable PPM. I'll check again later tonight and if high, I'll do another 50%+ water change. As of the last water change, I dosed a SMALL amount of NH3.



Diana said:


> ...
> ...GH and KH can be as low as 1 degree, but watch it! These bacteria use the carbon in carbonates, and if it is all used up (KH = 0) the bacteria may die off.


Would dosing with Flourish Excel help? I've been doing that to control some minor algae problems...

Again...thanks.

Bump:


lee739 said:


> I think you may have been a bit heavy handed with the hydrogen peroxide - doses I've seen usually show 1-2mL/gallon....
> I think high nitrites interfere with the nitrate assay also - so this may be throwing you as well.
> When did you start the fishless cycle? - my nitrites appeared at about day 10, and stayed for 2 weeks.....


My mistake, I meant 2ml per Gallon. I dosed a total of 32 to 33ml in my 60l/17G tank. Whew...


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Thank so much Diana! The info here is very similar to the info I read. A couple of questions for you (or anyone else)


if my params are off (specifically, I have a 6.4 to 6.6 PH or my O2 is low - I don't know how to measure that - I've read it can be difficult) how does this affect the cycle? As far as I can tell, I'm at this point in the cycle (below)...does that mean that even though my params were slightly off, I'm ok thus far?
These bacteria really do not do well when the pH is under 6.5, though they are sort of still hanging out in the tank. They are NOT reproducing. You WANT them to be reproducing quickly while you are cycling the tank. That is the whole point of cycling: to grow the bacteria quickly. Alter your water chemistry until it suits the bacteria best. High oxygen. Get plenty of water movement going. Don't bother trying to test O2. Some carbonates. (lots of carbonates is just fine). pH on the alkaline side of neutral. You can alter these conditions later to suit the livestock. Right now the livestock you want to raise are bacteria.


I'm now waiting for my nitrite's to drop to a measureable PPM. I'll check again later tonight and if high, I'll do another 50%+ water change. As of the last water change, I dosed a SMALL amount of NH3.
Why are you waiting? They won't drop until the bacteria grow in population, and the bacteria won't grow well if the ammonia or nitrite is over 5 ppm. Do enough water changes to get these values into the right range for the bacteria. Do a 100% water change if that is what it takes, then dose ammonia to just 1 ppm, and see how well the bacteira handle it. Test this 12 hours later, and dose to 1 ppm again if they have used it. 

Would dosing with Flourish Excel help? I've been doing that to control some minor algae problems...
The active ingredient in Excel kills bacteria. It seems to be OK when the bacteria are well established, and living in their bio-film, but I sure would not expose a tank being cycled to Excel. 
You want the beneficial bacteria to GROW, quit hindering them. HELP them.


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## sousvide (Mar 22, 2015)

Diana said:


> Why are you waiting? They won't drop until the bacteria grow in population, and the bacteria won't grow well if the ammonia or nitrite is over 5 ppm. Do enough water changes to get these values into the right range for the bacteria. Do a 100% water change if that is what it takes, then dose ammonia to just 1 ppm, and see how well the bacteira handle it. Test this 12 hours later, and dose to 1 ppm again if they have used it.


Bad choice of words on my part. I meant do regular water changes as per instructions until nitrites are measureable. Anyway, I did another water change today, roughly 60%. Prior to that Nitrites were OFF the chart. Measured again after the water change and nitrites are down to 0.25ppm! Measured again 3 hours later and they're at 0ppm!! Going to dose NH3 now to 1ppm and do one final nitrite test tomorrow. Fingers crossed. Nitrates were off the chart prior to the water change, now at 80ppm. I expect them to nudge a tad higher after the small NH3 dose which is what I think I want to see. I'll then do a full water change...maybe twice (my layout makes it hard to get 100% of the water out). Hopefully by the end of the weekend I can start stocking.



Diana said:


> The active ingredient in Excel kills bacteria. It seems to be OK when the bacteria are well established, and living in their bio-film, but I sure would not expose a tank being cycled to Excel.


Thanks for that info...I've stopped my excel dosing.


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