# Ultilmate fertilizer for faster plant growth



## will5

I wonder how many people are going to be will to try this because it has Urea in it?


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## sketch804

sounds nice! ya IDK even where to get urea, but the rest looks good, might have to try this sometime soon! My PH is always lower than 7 so this should be a good trial..Thnx Happi for the post!


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## happi

will5 said:


> I wonder how many people are going to be will to try this because it has Urea in it?


most of the top brand have urea in it, Seachem, TPN are some good example, if you had no problem dosing those then you should have no problem dosing this one either.


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## happi

sketch804 said:


> sounds nice! ya IDK even where to get urea, but the rest looks good, might have to try this sometime soon! My PH is always lower than 7 so this should be a good trial..Thnx Happi for the post!


Andrew you can buy a urea from ebay very cheap. 1 pound for $6 shipped on [Ebay Link Removed] you might need to buy Mg nitrate and Ca nitrate i know GLA carry them.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Happi,

Plants absorb their nitrogen first from nitrates, secondly from ammonicial nitrogen sources, and finally from urea. I know that urea is inexpensive but why use a source of nitrogen that plants cannot uptake efficiently?


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## Hoppy

I don't intend to start a war, but I do suggest that you offer a complete dosing scheme, using this mix. That just seems better than telling people that they might need to dose phosphates. What other things, in what dosages, should be used with this?


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## DarkCobra

I can't try it, because I have more than enough nitrogen in all my tanks without dosing any. That's the problem with any all-in-one mix.

One suggestion. You acknowledge that extra K+ will probably be needed. But more K2SO4 probably won't dissolve. So why not add the same amount of Mg from magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts)? That will reduce the NO3 content, which can be made up for with KNO3; increasing the overall K content.


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## happi

DarkCobra said:


> I can't try it, because I have more than enough nitrogen in all my tanks without dosing any. That's the problem with any all-in-one mix.
> 
> One suggestion. You acknowledge that extra K+ will probably be needed. But more K2SO4 probably won't dissolve. So why not add the same amount of Mg from magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts)? That will reduce the NO3 content, which can be made up for with KNO3; increasing the overall K content.


the goal was trying to avoid too much kno3 while keeping the Mg and Ca in the solution, i was trying to keep everything in good amount, the main source of nitrogen from this solution is Urea, Kno3 is something i extracted from Mg and Ca nitrate, if i added this from kno3 only then i wont able to add mg and ca nitrate or i will have to add it in less amount. the point was to avoid too much kno3 while keeping everything else in the solution. K2SO4 was used separate for the same reason, to avoid too much kno3, it does dissolve fine in the 1000ml solution.

you have to try the solution first then we will find out for sure.


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## happi

Hoppy said:


> I don't intend to start a war, but I do suggest that you offer a complete dosing scheme, using this mix. That just seems better than telling people that they might need to dose phosphates. What other things, in what dosages, should be used with this?


hoppy i did gave the complete dosing scheme, am not going to tell the kids if they have 25g tank then they should dose 10ml and if they have 10g then they should dose 4ml etc, they can do this their own, how hard can this be. i never said they might need to add this or that, i said they have to add K+ and P, we all add K+ during water changes and P can be added 3x week just like EI. i have mentioned all this already. i already said the dosing is for 50g high tech tank 20ml per day, now they can cut down to their own tanks size. 

if Newies have problem they can simply ask


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## happi

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Happi,
> 
> Plants absorb their nitrogen first from nitrates, secondly from ammonicial nitrogen sources, and finally from urea. I know that urea is inexpensive but why use a source of nitrogen that plants cannot uptake efficiently?


you are completely wrong my friend, plant uses NH4 before any other source, in my dosing i could have included NH4 but after testing it out, i only included algae in my tank and plus its risky business. Urea is similar to NH4 but instead it breaks down into NH4 inside the plant and they use it right away. if plant don't use it it turns into nitrate in matter of minutes, good bacteria does this. nitrate can be taken up by plants but at much slower rate, i have included nitrate in my solution just in case if plant do absorb all the urea, you will still have nitrate source to back it up for the plants.


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## m8e

I'm playing around with Fert/WC regimes in libre office calc, and made a chart of NO3 content(ppm or mg/l) with this dosing regime. (20ml/day, 50% wc every 2 weeks in a 50g tank) I think the urea doubles the nitrogen(?), so it looks quite good. But there is a risk that the nitrogen gets really high in some tanks.


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## happi

*Darkcobra*

if you meant to say why dose 20-30K+ which will not dissolve, are you saying in the solution or in the tank?? because i meant to say dose those amounts during water changes to the tank, not from the solution but dry dose it from K2SO4.


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## happi

m8e said:


> I'm playing around with Fert/WC regimes in libre office calc, and made a chart of NO3 content(ppm or mg/l) with this dosing regime. (20ml/day, 50% wc every 2 weeks.) I think the urea doubles the nitrogen(?), so it looks quite good. But there is a risk that the nitrogen gets really high in some tanks.


how high can it be?? 30ppm 40ppm 50ppm?? Urea will no longer remain Urea in the water, it will convert into nitrate within hours, soon as you add it to the tank, plants goes for right away. any urea left behind convert into nitrate, second source of nitrogen for plants. EI people knows how high you can go with the nitrates without any problems, they do it all the time.


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## m8e

happi said:


> how high can it be?? 30ppm 40ppm 50ppm?? Urea will no longer remain Urea in the water, it will convert into nitrate within hours, soon as you add it to the tank, plants goes for right away. any urea left behind convert into nitrate, second source of nitrogen for plants. EI people knows how high you can go with the nitrates without any problems, they do it all the time.


Didn't think of that. But this basically double the brown line(~60ppm peak). But that is for tanks that doesn't need to be dosed.:icon_wink

I think this _theoretical peak_ for normal EI is 45ppm. So 60ppm maybe isn't that high?


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## happi

m8e said:


> Didn't think of that. But this basically double the brown line(~60ppm peak). But that is for tanks that doesn't need to be dosed.:icon_wink
> 
> I think this _theoretical peak_ for normal EI is 45ppm. So 60ppm maybe isn't that high?


did your graph include how much plant will uptake when you dose everyday, or is this the total amount (60ppm) from dosing only? you have to consider that too.


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## m8e

happi said:


> did your graph include how much plant will uptake when you dose everyday, or is this the total amount (60ppm) from dosing only? you have to consider that too.


oh, sorry. Should have added this.
Daily usage in %:
brown = 0%
green = 5%
yellow = 10%
red = 15%
blue = 25%


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## happi

m8e said:


> oh, sorry. Should have added this.
> Daily usage in %:
> brown = 0%
> green = 5%
> yellow = 10%
> red = 15%
> blue = 25%


how you got the 60ppm of nitrate?? when dosing this fert you are adding about 2ppm of nitrate per day from urea and nitrate. this only makes 28ppm total for 2 weeks.


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## Seattle_Aquarist

Hi Happi,

CH4N2O (aq)+ H20(l) -->2NH3 (aq)+CO2 (aq)

If I am not mistaken the urea, with the addition of water, turns into NH3 (ammonia)


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## DarkCobra

happi said:


> if you meant to say why dose 20-30K+ which will not dissolve, are you saying in the solution or in the tank?? because i meant to say dose those amounts during water changes to the tank, not from the solution but dry dose it from K2SO4.


I meant putting more K in the solution. If you can get enough in the solution, then you can eliminate the weekly dry dose. The substitution I showed can get more K in the solution, with the same amount of nitrate; should you reach a point where no additional K2SO4 will dissolve.


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## happi

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Happi,
> 
> CH4N2O (aq)+ H20(l) -->2NH3 (aq)+CO2 (aq)
> 
> If I am not mistaken the urea, with the addition of water, turns into NH3 (ammonia)


you are right about it turning it into ammonia, but in ammonium form in lower PH 7< and yes it could turn into ammonia if you have higher Ph 7> 

but even in higher PH if you do add this fert, urea will quickly be absorbed by the plants, if there is any urea left behind which plant did no use right away could turn into ammonia and then nitrate, depending on your filter and bacteria. 

its little risky on higher ph, but there is something to think about, if you have high ph and harder water and you use Seachem ferts then you should have no problem using my recipe. 

in the past i have used seachem products on my hard water with 7.4 Ph and there was no problem with fish and plants. but co2 was on that setup for 24/7 and this might have kept the ph on the lower side. 

only way to find out how much nitrate you will build up using this ferts is to test it with some good kits. i did not rely on the test when i does it in my tank, all i know is i have a german blue ram in there during the testing of this ferts and he is still in the same tank.


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## happi

DarkCobra said:


> I meant putting more K in the solution. If you can get enough in the solution, then you can eliminate the weekly dry dose. The substitution I showed can get more K in the solution, with the same amount of nitrate; should you reach a point where no additional K2SO4 will dissolve.


my friend i think you know the reason why i did not add it in the solution. number 1 that i was afraid it will not dissolve properly and limit me from adding other ferts. plus i thought its better to dose more or less during water changes, so you can adjust your K+ dosing however you want, some like to dose less or more.


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## jgb77

Can you describe a bit what difference you see ,if any, with this dosing in regards to plant growth/health? In another words, what are you getting out of it that would not be achieved with the addition of say KN03 instead of urea? 
Thanks,
John


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## DarkCobra

happi said:


> my friend i think you know the reason why i did not add it in the solution. number 1 that i was afraid it will not dissolve properly and limit me from adding other ferts. plus i thought its better to dose more or less during water changes, so you can adjust your K+ dosing however you want, some like to dose less or more.


Although the amount of K2SO4 that will dissolve in a given amount of water is limited compared to most other dry ferts, I haven't found that even a nearly K2SO4-saturated solution interferes significantly with dissolving large quantities of other ferts. Each dissolved substance tends to act somewhat independently. I remember an old chemistry experiment from school where you dissolve salt in water until it can accept no more; yet it can still accept a lot of sugar.

Few people feel you can have too much K. Folks tend to be more sensitive about their nitrate levels, as I'm sure you've noticed from the comments here.

You asked how much is too much. My 46G, with standard EI dosing and a heavy fish load, was peaking at 150ppm right before the weekly water change. That really is too much, and I had serious problems as a result.

Eliminating nitrate from my ferts dropped the peak level to 75ppm - completely from fish food/waste. Still more than I'd like, I'd prefer to have 40 ppm max.

But some folks prefer to keep nitrates at 20ppm max. Or ever lower.

An all-in-one solution won't appeal these folks, or anyone who wants to maintain specific nutrient levels. The people who use all-in-ones just want easy dosing. And that's why I say include all necessary K, instead of requiring a separate K dose.


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## happi

DarkCobra said:


> Although the amount of K2SO4 that will dissolve in a given amount of water is limited compared to most other dry ferts, I haven't found that even a nearly K2SO4-saturated solution interferes significantly with dissolving large quantities of other ferts. Each dissolved substance tends to act somewhat independently. I remember an old chemistry experiment from school where you dissolve salt in water until it can accept no more; yet it can still accept a lot of sugar.
> 
> Few people feel you can have too much K. Folks tend to be more sensitive about their nitrate levels, as I'm sure you've noticed from the comments here.
> 
> You asked how much is too much. My 46G, with standard EI dosing and a heavy fish load, was peaking at 150ppm right before the weekly water change. That really is too much, and I had serious problems as a result.
> 
> Eliminating nitrate from my ferts dropped the peak level to 75ppm - completely from fish food/waste. Still more than I'd like, I'd prefer to have 40 ppm max.
> 
> But some folks prefer to keep nitrates at 20ppm max. Or ever lower.
> 
> An all-in-one solution won't appeal these folks, or anyone who wants to maintain specific nutrient levels. The people who use all-in-ones just want easy dosing. And that's why I say include all necessary K, instead of requiring a separate K dose.


thanks for your advice my friend, i did want to keep the nitrate levels low in the solution, because most of the nitrate will come from fish, waste etc. but still i included some nitrate in the solution anyway, if you dose this fert you are adding about 0.70ppm of urea and 1ppm of nitrate everyday and 1.50ppm K+ everyday, this should be good enough IMO. extra K+ never hurt a thing and you can always dose more. i will test out a solution which will include more K+, i will also try to make all in one solution. its possible to make one including P and iron together if you are adding *Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate* to your solution. 

as of right now this solution still works well.


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## happi

jgb77 said:


> Can you describe a bit what difference you see ,if any, with this dosing in regards to plant growth/health? In another words, what are you getting out of it that would not be achieved with the addition of say KN03 instead of urea?
> Thanks,
> John


IME plant dont use too much nitrate and it will keep on building up, they use N4H very fast, discus fish people can experience a great plant growth for an example. 

you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself.


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## will5

Well I have to say that this has peaked my interest but since I am not one to try new things I hope someone else will try it and post their results.


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## m8e

happi said:


> how you got the 60ppm of nitrate?? when dosing this fert you are adding about 2ppm of nitrate per day from urea and nitrate. this only makes 28ppm total for 2 weeks.


I did something wrong, thats how.:icon_wink

But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)

Calcium Nitrate = 17.1% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.171 = 0.0342g N
Magnessium Nitrate = 18.9% N
20ml * 0.01 * 0.189 = 0.0378g N
Urea = 46.6% N
20ml * 0.007 * 0.466 = 0.06524g N

0.0342 + 0.0378 + 0.06524 = 0.1372g N = 137.2mg N

NO3 22.6% N
137.2mg / 0.226 = 607mg NO3

607mg / 189.2 liter = 3.2 mg/l (ppm)

Edit: A 50% water change removes 50% of the ferts so a tank can start out with 22.4ppm NO3 in the beginning of the second 2 week period. 
22.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 67.2ppm 
The next 2 week period can start out with 33.6ppm and so on.
33.6ppm + 44.8ppm = 78.4ppm
39.2ppm + 44.8ppm = 84ppm
42ppm + 44.8ppm = 86.8ppm
43.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.2ppm
44.1ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.9ppm


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## happi

m8e said:


> I did something wrong, thats how.:icon_wink
> 
> But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)
> 
> Calcium Nitrate = 17.1% N
> 20ml * 0.01 * 0.171 = 0.0342g N
> Magnessium Nitrate = 18.9% N
> 20ml * 0.01 * 0.189 = 0.0378g N
> Urea = 46.6% N
> 20ml * 0.007 * 0.466 = 0.06524g N
> 
> 0.0342 + 0.0378 + 0.06524 = 0.1372g N = 137.2mg N
> 
> NO3 22.6% N
> 137.2mg / 0.226 = 607mg NO3
> 
> 607mg / 189.2 liter = 3.2 mg/l (ppm)
> 
> Edit: A 50% water change removes 50% of the ferts so a tank can start out with 22.4ppm NO3 in the beginning of the second 2 week period.
> 22.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 67.2ppm
> The next 2 week period can start out with 33.6ppm and so on.
> 33.6ppm + 44.8ppm = 78.4ppm
> 39.2ppm + 44.8ppm = 84ppm
> 42ppm + 44.8ppm = 86.8ppm
> 43.4ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.2ppm
> 44.1ppm + 44.8ppm = 88.9ppm


i think your math is correct, but no one is sure how much urea and nitrate plant will remove, think of EI dosing, we dose big amount of kno3 in each dose and do the 50% water change. we know some nitrate is left behind in the tank anyway and we stated to dose again, i cannot say for sure how much plant would uptake. i have read somewhere that plant could uptake anywhere from 1-4ppm of nitrate per day. 



m8e said:


> But I get it to 3.2ppm which means 44.8ppm.(if the urea gets converted to NO3)


 no one for sure knows whether urea will convert to nitrate or plant will use it before that happen. this is why we are getting high number of nitrate if we add it all up, otherwise its guessing work.


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## jgb77

Not trying to be argumentative, but to say "you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself" doesn't really tell anyone anything. You said you get better plant growth, how is it better? Was there a problem with the plants before and this rectified the issue? Maybe you can talk about your plant health before dosing this way and then after, what changes in plants did you see, faster growth, bigger plants etc?
Again, I'm not trying to be critical, and respect anyone who tries to find a different or new way of doing things. I'm just trying to get a discussion going about this is all.
Thanks,
John


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## happi

jgb77 said:


> Not trying to be argumentative, but to say "you will have to try this method first and you will find the difference in plants yourself" doesn't really tell anyone anything. You said you get better plant growth, how is it better? Was there a problem with the plants before and this rectified the issue? Maybe you can talk about your plant health before dosing this way and then after, what changes in plants did you see, faster growth, bigger plants etc?
> Again, I'm not trying to be critical, and respect anyone who tries to find a different or new way of doing things. I'm just trying to get a discussion going about this is all.
> Thanks,
> John


what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs. 

i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea. 

i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> the goal was trying to avoid too much kno3 while keeping the Mg and Ca in the solution, i was trying to keep everything in good amount, the main source of nitrogen from this solution is Urea, Kno3 is something i extracted from Mg and Ca nitrate, if i added this from kno3 only then i wont able to add mg and ca nitrate or i will have to add it in less amount. the point was to avoid too much kno3 while keeping everything else in the solution. K2SO4 was used separate for the same reason, to avoid too much kno3, it does dissolve fine in the 1000ml solution.
> 
> you have to try the solution first then we will find out for sure.


Why would it matter if the K+ comes from K2SO4 vs KNO3 and why would it matter if the Mg/Ca comes from a NO3 anion? It does not. 

Plants take up only the dissolved forms which disassociate entirely.

This is Toby's special N more than anything else. Some folks opt out and do not add the urea at all. Urea has been used a fair amount. But fish waste adds the same thing. I think the max NH4 uptake I've measured was around 0.8ppm NH4 per day. You can also come close to estimating fish waste in ppm's per day. 

I used the Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 forms since I had a fair amount laying around for Reef and Marine plant use........and used the GH booster which is 50% K2SO4, I did not see any differences in the 120 Gallon tank. 

I have a lot of shrimp and fish however.

If you lack fish/livestock etc, then adding some urea may be helpful.
I like fish, so I add them.


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## happi

plantbrain said:


> Why would it matter if the K+ comes from K2SO4 vs KNO3 and why would it matter if the Mg/Ca comes from a NO3 anion? It does not.
> 
> Plants take up only the dissolved forms which disassociate entirely.
> 
> This is Toby's special N more than anything else. Some folks opt out and do not add the urea at all. Urea has been used a fair amount. But fish waste adds the same thing. I think the max NH4 uptake I've measured was around 0.8ppm NH4 per day. You can also come close to estimating fish waste in ppm's per day.
> 
> I used the Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 forms since I had a fair amount laying around for Reef and Marine plant use........and used the GH booster which is 50% K2SO4, I did not see any differences in the 120 Gallon tank.
> 
> I have a lot of shrimp and fish however.
> 
> If you lack fish/livestock etc, then adding some urea may be helpful.
> I like fish, so I add them.


I have seen tobi's ferts too, he said not to add K+ and i said to add it, his ferts contain less urea and mine contain 2 times more, his contain less K+ and mine contain more of everything and his does not even contain any traces or iron while mine does, am not coping his stuff in any way, mine is more similar to pmdd formula but still different. in realty most ferts will be same or similar, am not going to change my amount 10x more just to make it sound different.

i agree with you regarding adding more fish etc, but some of us dont want too many fishes. i was only trying to help others, i have no problems using this ferts for myself and keep my mouth shut, i just wanted to gets people feedback after they try this method, maybe they like it, maybe they will even use. dont worry this wont stop people from dosing your EI dosing, i myself dosed it for long time now, but its time for me to try something different. 


if this thread turn into another fert war i will request it be closed now. you had the same argument on tobi's fert and people seems to using it with great results. TOM i request please let people try this before brainwashing them. thank you


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs.
> 
> i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea.
> 
> i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.


I have yet to have seen a single confirmed case of Ca++ deficient aquarium plant. It is possible. Even in non CO2 tanks, I've gone over a year without a water change and not seen any. I do add water for evaporation and I assume other folks do, there's a source of Ca++ right there.

I have folks that dose different ferts etc and I buy their plants, they buy mine etc, back and forth, I've not seen larger or broader leaves to date. 
My NO3 stick at 10-30ppm consistently. High fish load, so I am getting about 0.4-0.5ppm NH4 perhaps a day. Maybe 50% of the NO3 I dose is used by plants, if that. The NH4? I cannot say how much is converted to NO3 by bacteria vs say plant uptake. But it's there for plants if they want/prefer it.
I have never suggested adding more than 30ppm as an upper range, but no harm has come to plants if it was done according to most who have done it due to their own oversight/assumptions. It's not that tough to dose and test. 

Obviously..........NO3 test will show a slower decline.....for a rather obvious reason vs NH4: NH4=> bacteria will build up and remove it in any cycled tank.
So you have that working against NH4 measurements and it's also 1-2 orders smaller than NO3. If you look at what is inside the plant cell, it's mostly a vacuole, and that is filled with nutrients, mostly: NO3 and K+.

Adding more GH is wise however, much like adding more ferts or other traces or light and CO2, you expect to see more growth/better growth when you add more nutrients, GH is a mix of 2 nutrients. I've run GH down pretty low, so has ADA, without much issue, but the other end, running it higher..........produced some nicer colors, and few plants do not like higher GH, least I've not found any to date.

FWIW........


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## JoraaÑ

Lets see Before and After picture of any sp. from your tank...Say 'Cuba', Pantanal. Any that has some hint of red...


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## happi

Joraan said:


> Lets see Before and After picture of any sp. from your tank...Say 'Cuba', Pantanal. Any that has some hint of red...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAqki9X7n-E

this is only after 3 weeks of dosing this fert, before that i have played around with EI dosing and nitrate levels were reading at 60+ppm and most plant melted and are now recovering. 

i promise if this ferts fails for me i will switch back to EI, this ferts is still under testing purpose, that is why i have requested others to try it. it might work for them or not work for them at all.


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## jgb77

happi said:


> what else can you ask for when it will simply reduce the water changes, plant shows better color without Ca deficiency, plant will have broader leaves, stem plant grow much faster and shows very broad leafs.
> 
> i have tested when i was dosing nitrate only and it will build up at crazy amount and plant dont seems to grow as fast, i even experienced some plant melt when nitrates reached over 60-80ppm, this was just to see how the plant handle this, but they did not handle it well. most plant still grew at this level, ludwigia cuba seems to grow fast in very high nitrate. another test i carried where i had ammonia (ammonium form in low ph 7<) reading at 1-2ppm and nitrate were high 40ppm, i tested it everyday, i noticed that ammonium levels were going down very fast while nitrate levels were the same, it was clear enough that plant were going after ammonium only without touching the nitrate. i know i cant trust the test kits, but at least it gives me an idea.
> 
> i did not want to post this because we will have another war here regarding ferts. i hope my post clear some of your doubts.


Again, my intention wasn't to start a fert war, heh that sounds funny. One of the things that I have learned is there is more than one way to fertilize plants, and no one way is wrong.
So then your experience is that high nitrate causes plant growth to slow down? Also what was the issue with Calcium, you were experiencing Ca deficiency with high nitrates or was that a separate issue?
Just going by the video you posted, the Pantanal is certainly liking your conditions, that cannot be argued. Also, the video said the tank had been recently redone, did you use new aqua soil or reuse your old stuff?
Thank you for the interesting discussion and your observations.
John


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## happi

jgb77 said:


> Again, my intention wasn't to start a fert war, heh that sounds funny. One of the things that I have learned is there is more than one way to fertilize plants, and no one way is wrong.
> So then your experience is that high nitrate causes plant growth to slow down? Also what was the issue with Calcium, you were experiencing Ca deficiency with high nitrates or was that a separate issue?
> Just going by the video you posted, the Pantanal is certainly liking your conditions, that cannot be argued. Also, the video said the tank had been redone, did you use new aqua soil or reuse your old stuff?
> Thank you for the interesting discussion and your observations.
> John


thanks for understanding better John. as i said some plant did not mind the high nitrate but some sure melted away very quickly. they say if you can keep the Pantanal happy then you can keep any plant happy. i was still getting twisting of leaves while dosing GH booster, tried other methods through Ca sulfate etc, but nothing helped until i added this fert, it does respond very quickly. 

am not saying high nitrate slow the growth, it actually made the Ludwigia grow very fast, you can prove it to yourself, on the other side some plant did care about the very high nitrate. when i said redone, i meant to say trimmed everything did 2-3 100% water changes and started dosing my method and Panatanl was the first one to respond. nothing else changed beside the new dosing.


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## KH2PO4

I have wanted to try something like this since reading about Tobi's Special N.
But Magnesium Nitrate, Calcium Nitrate are very hygroscopic (aren't they?). 
That is very inconvenient for me... Just saying anyway.


----------



## DarkCobra

Happi, your tank looks good. roud:


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## happi

DarkCobra said:


> Happi, your tank looks good. roud:


thank you my friend


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## happi

Update:

guys keep in mind that this is just a trial and we need many people to test out this ferts, we still need to work on it to make it better, am not a chemist and i dont know if any of my chemicals will react with each others, i do need help from somebody to check on that for me, i know we have many great chemist here. 

i just have a feeling that K2SO4 could react with Ca nitrate, but we can fix this issue by adding another chemical. like i said am still testing this fert and need your guys support. i know i will make some mistakes when making the solution. 

any chemist out there who would like to share their knowledge and check on the chemicals for any kind of reactions, it would be nice of you guys. 

am only doing this to help others and i have nothing else to gain from it, no fame or money.


----------



## DarkCobra

Any potential reaction between K2SO4 and Ca(NO3)2 would be of the double substitution type; where the SO4 and NO3 simply exchange positions.

But even if this were to occur, when dissolved it all exists as separate K, Ca, NO3, and SO4 ions. So as long as no reactions occur that result in a poorly soluble or insoluble chemical (which would be visible as a solid precipitate in your solution), the end result on plants is the same.

I did actually look up a bunch of these reactions some time ago. Except for the well-known iron/phosphate issue, all were of the double substitution type; and none resulted in low solubility. So no worries.


----------



## happi

DarkCobra said:


> Any potential reaction between K2SO4 and Ca(NO3)2 would be of the double substitution type; where the SO4 and NO3 simply exchange positions.
> 
> But even if this were to occur, when dissolved it all exists as separate K, Ca, NO3, and SO4 ions. So as long as no reactions occur that result in a poorly soluble or insoluble chemical (which would be visible as a solid precipitate in your solution), the end result on plants is the same.
> 
> I did actually look up a bunch of these reactions some time ago. Except for the well-known iron/phosphate issue, all were of the double substitution type; and none resulted in low solubility. So no worries.



thanks Cobra, thanks for giving me detailed info. 

if i remember correctly we can also dissolve Fe and P in the same solution without any issue, as long as the PH of the solution stays very acidic.

one more thing, what happen if you mix all the dry ferts before adding them to water, wouldn't that cause problem. for example: if we add kno3,ca,mg,phosphate,iron etc and add it to the solution and mix it vs adding the kno3,ca,mg,phosphate in the solution first mixing it and then adding the Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate and then finally adding the iron. sorry am not a good chemist, i think you might know what am trying to ask. normally i mix the ferts one by one.


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## m8e

You might be making something explosive as Calcium nitrate/Magnessium nitrate/Potassium nitrate is oxidizers and some of those metals and the ascorbic acid might work as fuel.:hihi:
I don't think anything will happen just by mixing dry ferts, as mixtures likes these are commonly used.


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## happi

m8e said:


> You might be making something explosive as Calcium nitrate/Magnessium nitrate/Potassium nitrate is oxidizers and some of those metals and the ascorbic acid might work as fuel.:hihi:
> I don't think anything will happen just by mixing dry ferts, as mixtures likes these are commonly used.


only way to find out is on 4th of july. :icon_lol:


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## Hoppy

No problem, just put a "FLAMMABLE LIQUID" sign on the aquarium. And, of course a "no smoking" sign.


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## happi

Hoppy said:


> No problem, just put a "FLAMMABLE LIQUID" sign on the aquarium. And, of course a "no smoking" sign.



lol should also put a sign no smoking near 10 feet


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## bklyn

nice water movement in your tank, do you use power head?


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## dafil

I will try this in next couple weeks,but will add separately K2SO4(1,5ppm dayly-equall with your recepy)


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## happi

bklyn said:


> nice water movement in your tank, do you use power head?


i use DIY spray bar, its 3 and half feet long, hooked up to 2x filters on both ends of the spray bar.


----------



## happi

dafil said:


> I will try this in next couple weeks,but will add separately K2SO4(1,5ppm dayly-equall with your recepy)


you can add 1.5ppm of K+ separately, it should be fine.


----------



## plantbrain

happi said:


> as i said some plant did not mind the high nitrate but some sure melted away very quickly. I was still getting twisting of leaves while dosing GH booster, tried other methods through Ca sulfate etc, but nothing helped until i added this fert, it does respond very quickly.
> on the other side some plant did care about the very high nitrate. when i said redone, i meant to say trimmed everything did 2-3 100% water changes and started dosing my method and Panatanl was the first one to respond. nothing else changed beside the new dosing.


Which plants specifically had issues with high NO3? Which plants got twisted and then responded better? 

The Ca++ from CaSO4 or Ca(NO3) once dissolved will be the same regardless. NO3 from whatever source as well, K+ from K2SO4 will also be the same once dissolved.

Many folks have deleted the urea from Toby's mix, this was done more out of fear I think though. But reconciling the Ca++ or K or Mg.........coming from whatever source...........does not make any basic sense. Removing the SO4 might be part of it for some, but this is added via K2SO4.

Any K+ issues can be added by upping/lowering K2SO4.
Adding more Ca via Ca(NO3)2 should pose little issue if you want to see about the higher NO3 relative Ca++.

It should not matter, or in other words, something else is going on/occurring.
Running fert routines for several months and not just a few weeks also is a better way to see. I used the Ca(NO3)/Mg(NO3) dosing for about 3 weeks, but did not see any differences. I did not add any GH booster, but added about 10ppm of K+ as K2SO4 each week.

Maybe I needed to go longer. Maybe not.










I trim and prune a fair amount in this tank however. If you prune say once a month or once every 2-3 months, then the plants will behave differently also. Frequent trimming keeps them small and compact.

You can also remove the K2SO4 from the GH booster and make your own blend of GH booster, say less K2SO4 and more CaSO4/MgSO4.
This was simply by convention from Seachem's Eq product.

Mg might also be a factor, say dosing more of it daily than many traces add vs slightly limiting doing after a water change. I've added MgSO4 to the CMS mix since the 1990's (Also by convention what other folks had been doing already). I do not add a lot of GH booster to my tanks, basically 1 teaspoon per 60 Gal 1-2x a week. Gh is rather low, under 2 degrees, mostly Ca++.

Low vs higher KH also may have some factors in results. Still, independent of other factors, I see little evidence that some special relationship between Ca, K+, Mg, NO3. I've had a wide range over the years for each of these nutrients. I'd say there's some other factors that are causing the differences.

All it takes is a few folks to show that those nutrients are in a different range with those specific plants to falsify the hypothesis. Then you end up looking for some other factor. One by one......eliminating them. If you cannot, well.....you sort of accept them cautiously. 

Given that simple things like CO2 and light are not measured/compared well, and things like good care of the plants, trimming, water changes, filtration, etc vary widely from hobbyists to hobbyists....we would expect various results independent of dosing. Double check and be skeptical.


A faster more touchy system for growth:

The higher light/more CO2,higher fish/shrimp loading, sediment + water column dosing = faster wider range results. So if something were to destabilize the system, we'd expected it at higher light/CO2. 

If destabilization: stunted growth in X, Y and Z species, algae, poor fish/shrimp health/behavior....etc is going to occur, it should occur 1st in such a tank driven at higher rates. In not there.......then not at lower energies.....less light/less fish etc.

This gives you a good comparative test model to work with.


----------



## jgb77

So is your opinion, Happi, that the reason your plants seem/are healthier, is the urea you are adding, or is it that you are adding an alternative source of N other than KNO3 that is the key here? I'm just trying to find out why you get better results with this mix vs. just say pmdd plus PO4 or something similar.
Thanks, this is good stuff.
John


----------



## happi

i dont know why Tom is showing those pics, i have seen them many time now and i myself have agreed that EI dosing work perfectly fine and i have nothing against it. 

*jgb77* the better results are due to different sources of nitrogen, but people are missing the main point here, Urea has the highest nitrogen source and when you add it to water it simply break down into Ammonia and co2 inside the plants, i repeat inside the plants cell. you are not adding nitrogen but also adding co2 at the same time. 

i hope this help


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## m8e

From what I understand plants use less energy when when they are using ammonia/ammonium/urea compared to nitrite and nitrate. The filter bacteria get their energy from the ammonia/ammonium => nitrite => nitrate process and plants have to convert it back to ammonia/ammonium to get something they can use. That's why most aquatic plants prefer the simpler nitrogen sources and why urea might work better. Urea contains 46.6% N compared to KNO3's 13.9% N or NO3's 22.6% N, so it might work better for some other reason than this energy thingy.

I can buy a 25kg sack of Ca(NO3)2 for ~27usd(189sek) localy but i have problem finding the other ferts. I will test urea if i can find it in a reasonable quantity and price. 25kgs or more is a lot of ferts.


----------



## happi

m8e said:


> From what I understand plants use less energy when when they are using ammonia/ammonium/urea compared to nitrite and nitrate. The filter bacteria get their energy from the ammonia/ammonium => nitrite => nitrate process and plants have to convert it back to ammonia/ammonium to get something they can use. That's why most aquatic plants prefer the simpler nitrogen sources and why urea might work better. Urea contains 46.6% N compared to KNO3's 13.9% N or NO3's 22.6% N, so it might work better for some other reason than this energy thingy.
> 
> I can buy a 25kg sack of Ca(NO3)2 for ~27usd(189sek) localy but i have problem finding the other ferts. I will test urea if i can find it in a reasonable quantity and price. 25kgs or more is a lot of ferts.


nicely explained to those who did not know. 

you don't need that much Ca(no3)2, you can order it from GLA, i know Orlando carry it. the only thing you really need to order separate is Urea, its very cheap on ebay or Orlando might hook you up with this too.


----------



## DarkCobra

Tom is right that once dissolved, plants don't care what the mother chemical is for Ca, Mg, K, and NO3; because these exist in solution separately.

Substitutions should be possible without affecting the effect of the nutrient mix, if the amounts of nutrients remain the same. You could replace the nitrate in the less common calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate with the same amount from potassium nitrate. Get the magnesium from Epsom salt instead. Get the calcium from a weekly dose of calcium carbonate (it's too poorly soluble to go in the solution). And reduce the potassium sulfate to make up for the added contribution from potassium nitrate if you want all things absolutely equal. I can virtually guarantee the net effect will be the same, as long as the total nutrient contribution is the same.

However, in other aspects, getting a particular nutrient from multiple sources is a good idea. Like supplementing the Fe EDTA in CSM+B with more stable Fe DPTA, which I also do. I haven't tried urea, but I hear some people swear by it when used in small quantities; if larger amounts of overall nitrogen are needed, then a dual source like urea and nitrate seems to be the way to go.

Now this I haven't heard before:



happi said:


> *jgb77* the better results are due to different sources of nitrogen, but people are missing the main point here, Urea has the highest nitrogen source and when you add it to water it simply break down into Ammonia and co2 inside the plants, i repeat inside the plants cell. you are not adding nitrogen but also adding co2 at the same time.


Since synthetic urea is made from ammonia and CO2, this seems possible. I'll be looking into this further, any references would be appreciated. I'm always interested in providing a little more carbon for my plants in low-tech tanks.


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## happi

The amount of co2 in Urea isnt that high though, maybe 1ppm. this is what i have heard.


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## m8e

Urea is 46.6% CO2 and 46.6% N by weight. So 1ppm of urea is 0.466ppm CO2 and 0.466ppm N. (Equivalent to 2.06 ppm NO3.)

Plants breaks urea down to ammonia and CO2 with the enzyme urease, but some soil bactera do this to. If most of the urea is broken down inside the plants the co2 might be a big bonus, but i think most of it will be broken down by bacteria in the filter/substrate. Releasing the ammonia/CO2 into the water, with a tiny co2 addition in the water column.

It's might be like adding glucose to the water. The plants can and will use it as an carbon(+energy) source, but most of it will be used by bacteria etc, releasing co2 into the water. 

Edit: looks like some algae have this or similar enzymes and can then use urea. But it might be a bonus that some algae can't use urea directly.



happi said:


> you don't need that much Ca(no3)2, you can order it from GLA, i know Orlando carry it. the only thing you really need to order separate is Urea, its very cheap on ebay or Orlando might hook you up with this too.


 I found Ca(no3)2 on GLA but it cost 5.5 usd per kg not including shipping to this side of the pond. That big bag is only 1.08 usd per kg.

Looks like the shipping cost is ~50usd if i order everything from GLA.


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## happi

m8e said:


> Urea is 46.6% CO2 and 46.6% N by weight. So 1ppm of urea is 0.466ppm CO2 and 0.466ppm N. (Equivalent to 2.06 ppm NO3.)
> 
> Plants breaks urea down to ammonia and CO2 with the enzyme urease, but some soil bactera do this to. If most of the urea is broken down inside the plants the co2 might be a big bonus, but i think most of it will be broken down by bacteria in the filter/substrate. Releasing the ammonia/CO2 into the water, with a tiny co2 addition in the water column.
> 
> It's might be like adding glucose to the water. The plants can and will use it as an carbon(+energy) source, but most of it will be used by bacteria etc, releasing co2 into the water.
> 
> Edit: looks like some algae have this or similar enzymes and can then use urea. But it might be a bonus that some algae can't use urea directly.
> 
> I found Ca(no3)2 on GLA but it cost 5.5 usd per kg not including shipping to this side of the pond. That big bag is only 1.08 usd per kg.
> 
> Looks like the shipping cost is ~50usd if i order everything from GLA.


sorry i did not see that you are not from the USA, i hope you find all the parts you need.


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## dafil

happi,what is your light fixture and tank heigh.I like your plants colours


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## happi

dafil said:


> happi,what is your light fixture and tank heigh.I like your plants colours


its Catalina T5HO 2x54w, the reflectors are very good and light is sitting on top of the tank with no legs, around 18-20" away from substrate, so that mean more light.


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## sketch804

ha 'not trying to start a fertilizer war' huh? Well either way there is a lot of great info on this thread and things I never had a clue about! Oh so if there is CO2 in urea, then would you have to watch your fish for the first few days to make sure they don't get gassed out?? Like my CO2 is as high as I can take it without harming the animals, so would this release of CO2 have much impact on the levels through out the tank?? Good write up though Happi!


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## happi

sketch804 said:


> ha 'not trying to start a fertilizer war' huh? Well either way there is a lot of great info on this thread and things I never had a clue about! Oh so if there is CO2 in urea, then would you have to watch your fish for the first few days to make sure they don't get gassed out?? Like my CO2 is as high as I can take it without harming the animals, so would this release of CO2 have much impact on the levels through out the tank?? Good write up though Happi!



my friend the co2 inside the urea isn't high enough to cause any harm. the co2 is in very small amount.

read this:
http://homepage.agron.ntu.edu.tw/~m...etabolism/Urea%20metabolism%20in%20plants.pdf


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## jgb77

How can we know if the urea is being consumed by the plants or the filter/bacteria?
If I have plants growing well with no issues, if I add some urea I should see a difference in the growth and health of the plants then. I am going to try it and see what difference, if any, I see.
Thanks,
John


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## DarkCobra

m8e said:


> Plants breaks urea down to ammonia and CO2 with the enzyme urease, but some soil bactera do this to. If most of the urea is broken down inside the plants the co2 might be a big bonus, but i think most of it will be broken down by bacteria in the filter/substrate. Releasing the ammonia/CO2 into the water, with a tiny co2 addition in the water column.


Thanks for the explanation. I followed it up with some Googling, and it appears that at least some species of Nitrosomonas in our biofilters have the urease enzyme. So I think you're right, the plants will only get some of urea's benefit.

Still, urea seems to have the ability to solve problems in some cases.


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## happi

jgb77 said:


> How can we know if the urea is being consumed by the plants or the filter/bacteria?
> If I have plants growing well with no issues, if I add some urea I should see a difference in the growth and health of the plants then. I am going to try it and see what difference, if any, I see.
> Thanks,
> John


John i do not add any filter media in my heavy planted tank, i assume i have less bacteria to convert the Urea into nitrate etc, this way plant get more chance to use it before the bacteria does. 

if you decide to use urea only, i would say use it carefully. you also need to accurately measure it before dosing it.


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## happi

i have few people tried this fert, i would like to hear from them, good or bad. some of you might have had problem with GDA/GSA, but in my case it did not happen, some of you might have lost fish or shrimps, but again this was not in my case, something else gota be causing that. because i have tested this ferts on my delicate blue ram and few shrimps without any issue. 

*Note*: if you are adding new fish or shrimps to your tank then change 80% water before acclimating them, this will ensure that any ferts Ammonium etc is out of system. because if you are going to acclimate the fish which have 7.0>ph in the water then you know what to expect. 
*
again we need more people to test this Fert because it still require more tweaking to it, its not done yet. *


good luck


----------



## farrenator

This doesn't make sense to me. From what I understand, the bacteria colony will grow to the size that can be supported by the food source available, not whether there is media or not. If there is no media in the filter the bacteria will grow on plants, substrate etc. I could be wrong, so if I am, please set me straight.



happi said:


> John i do not add any filter media in my heavy planted tank, i assume i have less bacteria to convert the Urea into nitrate etc, this way plant get more chance to use it before the bacteria does.
> 
> if you decide to use urea only, i would say use it carefully. you also need to accurately measure it before dosing it.


----------



## happi

farrenator said:


> This doesn't make sense to me. From what I understand, the bacteria colony will grow to the size that can be supported by the food source available, not whether there is media or not. If there is no media in the filter the bacteria will grow on plants, substrate etc. I could be wrong, so if I am, please set me straight.



you are right about bacteria growing on plants and substrate, but they are mostly active in filter media, am not expert but this is just my opinion. i almost have no media in my filters and filter runs as a flow and circulation. 

i choose this path because plant can use the ammonium/urea before bacteria get any chance to convert the ammonium/urea into nitrate. 

in most cases our good bacteria isn't very active if we have very low PH, their activity decreases as PH drops.


----------



## happi

*Quick Update*

am not sure who else is testing this fert, i have sent 2 samples to 2 people. only one of them is in touch with me. My friend *Joraan* been using it and been reporting it back to me, he can write his own feedback here. so far he said plant are growing much faster than before, his quote *"Way way faster than EI"* now again we are not trying to compare this with EI. 

he said he only had one problem, he noticed that plant tend to loose their red colors, or not colorful as before. my brain tells me that something else in his filter is consuming Fe, this is very possible and most of us dose extra Fe, he is currently dosing the extra Fe and we will see how it goes.


----------



## happi

anyone else trying this fert out there??


----------



## sketch804

soon...soon...i will be trying this one out here in the next month or so once I can actually get a chance.. roud:


----------



## toddziegler

I have a quick observation type question. When I was farming with my dad back home. We used urea as the main nitrogen source for our corn crop. Corn is a very greedy nitrogen consumer. Is it different with aquatic plants then with terrestrial ones?


----------



## happi

toddziegler said:


> I have a quick observation type question. When I was farming with my dad back home. We used urea as the main nitrogen source for our corn crop. Corn is a very greedy nitrogen consumer. Is it different with aquatic plants then with terrestrial ones?


if i remember correctly, they can both use nitrate, but aquatic plant have better luck using NH4/ammonia, in other word Urea, most terrestrial plant prefer nitrate over NH4. 

reason your dad used Urea for corn is due to the fact that Urea contain the highest Nitrogen than any other source and its much cheaper as well.


----------



## jgb77

It's been about a month since happi posted this. Anyone care to share their observations/results? I know happi said a few people he knows are trying it, any updates from them?
John
Also, wanted to add: happi, do you personally still use RO water with this dosing? I remember reading from posts of yours that you were using purely RO water. If you do, you haven't seen any issues adding just .18ppm Ca daily? That's only about 1.25 ppm Calcium a week... Seems low compared to numbers we usually see added.
Thanks.


----------



## happi

jgb77 said:


> It's been about a month since happi posted this. Anyone care to share their observations/results? I know happi said a few people he knows are trying it, any updates from them?
> John
> Also, wanted to add: happi, do you personally still use RO water with this dosing? I remember reading from posts of yours that you were using purely RO water. If you do, you haven't seen any issues adding just .18ppm Ca daily? That's only about 1.25 ppm Calcium a week... Seems low compared to numbers we usually see added.
> Thanks.


hi john, i have requested Joraan to post him feedback, he is the only one i know who had tried it, others i don't know what happen. 

i did use 100% RO on this setup and added GH booster for some time and stopped using it, i did not notice much difference. both method seems to work, that is why i said you can use gh booster or k2so4.


----------



## JoraaÑ

Ok Guys here is my observation with Happi's Fertilizer. 

1st week 

Got it in mail on June 15th Friday, did water change same day no dosing at all...again another water change on Saturday. Started saturday with Gh booster 1 tsp and 30 ml(under dosing as some where I read Urea is bad for animals) of the fert...continued for 6 days....sp. like pantanal, ludwigia red etc started to fade the color and growth over-all stopped... _Interesting Right_??? Also I didn't dose any Po4 for the whole 6 days. GSA/GDA all over the Glasses as well as stunted growth....._Now what?_ 

Should I stop or shall I tweak here and there and see what happens??

I gave* 1 more shot*..tho' Happi wrote he changes water every 2 weeks but cause of this CRAZY heat I did change 70%+ water. 

2nd week 

Dosed Gh booster...no instead of 20 ml/50 gal as suggested by Happi..I doses 1 MORE EXTRA dose(20 ml more) that amount..So 100 gal is getting 60 ml every day....No color change still pale after 3rd days plants took off...and Believe it or Not....on 5th day of the higher dose(20 ml more) I was surprised to see the jungle..Trimmed, sold some here, gave away some and trashed some plants....:icon_sad:

3rd Week

Still no color....now what...? 

I increased a pinch of Fe in 500ml and dosed again....Growth was crazy but color was still pale...

Mind you folks I Use to dose EI with little tweak(my own TE mix, +/- other ferts as needed) here and there and NOT regularly...then the growth was good and colorful.

4th Week

2nd shot...Same 3X dose with PO4 and little bit of my own TE(In Happi's fertilizer there is Fe and Csm+Plantex B as well, so why I mixed my own??? as I see there is lack of Mgso4, this is the main salt to keep GDA away from my tank) there you go, color started to come back...no more paleness, growth is good no more GSA..This is WIN WIN SIGN...WE HAVE SUPER STRONG FERT.. WOW........Aha!!!

There is a catch...I started to see BBA in Substrate(HELL NO....this is 1 and only Algae I fear). Talked with Happi, he told me that since the growth is fast co2 needs to catch up. Ok makes sense...

3RD SHOT AND I'M DOne
WENT BACK TO MY OWN DOSING. 

CONCLUSION:-

AMAZING GROWTH: PERFECT FOR COMMERCIAL USE, WHEN YOU DOSE THIS FERT, Trim every other day and sell the WEEDS and repeat the same.

NEEDs IMPROVEMENT IN THE MIXTURE TO ADJUST MGSO4 AND I THINK LITTLE MORE TE...

Regarding Phosphate(KH2PO2): it is totally my Fault and Curiosity to see what will happen...As Happi clearly has stated in his write up. 

Now if you will ask me if I(YOU-Happi or some 1 else) will improve the Fert and will you(I) continue to dose? My Answer will be no...why? Cause I dont have time and energy to keep my hands wet: I hate to trash Weeds which are grown in my tank with love and care: as these days NO 1 buying anything.........


----------



## happi

thank you joraan for your honest feedback, i completly agree with everything you have written, this fert does need some improvement, i will work on my way to increase the Fe and Mg in this fert, i know Mg and Fe plays an important role in colors.

you can now tell us how much extra Fe and Mg people should add to there mix, this way i can update the thread with final fertilizer.

Edit: this fertilizer is great for those who want to sell their weeds and make profit, Joraan is right about that, because plant grows so fast that you will be trimming very often.


----------



## HighDesert

When will you "go public" with it? I'd rather use a forum member's tried-and-proven than something off a shelf.


----------



## happi

HighDesert said:


> When will you "go public" with it? I'd rather use a forum member's tried-and-proven than something off a shelf.


 
there is no reason to sell it, all the dry chemical can be bought and you can make your own solution


----------



## jgb77

I think it may be better off just having traces separate from this mix. Then you can also add extra MgSO4 directly to the trace mix, I've added extra Mg to CSM for a while now anyways. 
I am going to do a little experimenting with this myself and will post my experiences with it too.
John


----------



## darkoon

Happi, i recall you had color issue with L aromatica in the past before this dosing regime, did this solve the problem for you?


----------



## happi

darkoon said:


> Happi, i recall you had color issue with L aromatica in the past before this dosing regime, did this solve the problem for you?


am not sure what kind of problems i had in the past, i have bad memory. i do know that this fert worked well for plant growth and colors, maybe needed little more tweaks to make the color better, Joraan have said it too.


----------



## happi

here is something interesting, this might interest you

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/X6862E/X6862E03.htm


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## LAKE

Interesting thread, kudos to the efforts!

Maybe I missed it, this one seemed a long read but I am curious, what Fe source you are using?

I am inclined to cautiously question the validity of observations in such a short trial. From my experiences it takes more time for the biological systems to fully adapt and more time again for the plants to fully adapt to the new set of stable conditions. Maybe that two days of large water changes without dosing shocked some plants? Many subtle variables.

I would be interested to see a few tanks after 6-8 months of a stable dosing regimine.


----------



## plantbrain

Joraan said:


> Also I didn't dose any Po4 for the whole 6 days. GSA/GDA all over the Glasses as well as stunted growth....._Now what?_


This algal was not due directly to the ferts.............urea etc should be utilized fully if there is ample O2 available since urease requires O2.

A spike in growth increases can easily occur and as mentioned by Happi, the Carbon/CO2 took some time to recoup.

Still, a small flux in NH4 should not cause algae, certainly not GSA or GDA.............

But some slight CO2 limiting and adaption by plants very well may induce those two species of algae and cause the slow, stopping of growth, VERY few dosing routines will cause such changes directly if the CO2 is ample.
Even at insane light light levels.

Often what ends up happening is that many surfaces colonize more bacteria to match the NH4 loading. The effect is temporary for NH4, you get an initial boost, then tapers off. Same with removing filters, it works for a time..........but bacteria simply grows on surfaces and plants, roots, gravel, you are not escaping less bacteria by removing the filter, not by a long shot.

After dosing NH4 in the past, I came to the simplification of using fish food and fish to do this job. You can also see similarity between new dosing NH4 and adding new fish. Fish, I like them and that's why I got into the hobby, so they are mandatory for me. Feeding them well and having a nice community that's thriving, also a mandatory thing for me. This tends to add a fair amount of NH4 per day.

I estimated about .2 to .5 ppm NH4 as waste per day based on the food I feed. This assumes 90% is wasted and 5-10% is retain for fish growth and maintenance. Shrimp, microinvertebrates etc, bacteria biomass etc is assumed zero, but of course that's not the case really.

They all can add to the pool of NH4.

If you lack fish, then adding it might help.

I went back in 2001 and got rid of any snails and just had bacteria and dosed NO3 as KNo3. I still had awesome growth with the pickyist of plants such as Erio setaceum etc. Stopped fussing with NH4 and gave up associating it with algae. 



> I gave* 1 more shot*..tho' Happi wrote he changes water every 2 weeks but cause of this CRAZY heat I did change 70%+ water.


The heat could have caused the algae and the CO2 issues also, since warmer water = high MEt rates for plants and fish, less O2 and much more CO2 demand. A tank with 72F water vs a tank with 86F water will grow 50% faster or more. Less O2 and more CO2 is not a good control to base judgement off of.

Talked with Happi, he told me that since the growth is fast co2 needs to catch up. Ok makes sense...

3RD SHOT AND I'M DOne
WENT BACK TO MY OWN DOSING. 



> Now if you will ask me if I(YOU-Happi or some 1 else) will improve the Fert and will you(I) continue to dose? My Answer will be no...why? Cause I dont have time and energy to keep my hands wet: I hate to trash Weeds which are grown in my tank with love and care: as these days NO 1 buying anything.........


I'd say it was less the fert and more the temp changes and other issues(CO2), perhaps Mg..particularly if the tap is soft/lacking Mg.......

We like to think we are seeing some dramatic thing, but often times it's just the tank readjusting and plants can store various nutrients for quite some time (PO4 can be stored up to several months). N, not so much. If any of these ferts/temp/currents etc have a growth effect, then we see increases/decreases in CO2 demand. If not, then the aquarist often had good CO2 in both cases, so little difference is noted. 

There is dependency and it's wise to think of CO2 as a fert, but the more important one.

Only when you are sure that is good, mastered that and keep it going......... can you assess dosing effectively. We can unfairly assess EI, PPS, PMDD, ADA, Special N, whatever........all because we did something or some other thing caused an issue.

Get a light meter/borrow one etc also if you want to test etc also, it makes uptake and CO2 comparison much less problematic.


----------



## happi

LAKE said:


> Interesting thread, kudos to the efforts!
> 
> Maybe I missed it, this one seemed a long read but I am curious, what Fe source you are using?
> 
> I am inclined to cautiously question the validity of observations in such a short trial. From my experiences it takes more time for the biological systems to fully adapt and more time again for the plants to fully adapt to the new set of stable conditions. Maybe that two days of large water changes without dosing shocked some plants? Many subtle variables.
> 
> I would be interested to see a few tanks after 6-8 months of a stable dosing regimine.


DTPA and EDTA 

but i wish if i could add Fe Gluconate, i did not have this and am sure this might work very well along with DTPA and EDTA to create the fertilizer even better.


----------



## happi

jgb77 said:


> I think it may be better off just having traces separate from this mix. Then you can also add extra MgSO4 directly to the trace mix, I've added extra Mg to CSM for a while now anyways.
> I am going to do a little experimenting with this myself and will post my experiences with it too.
> John



i cannot promise if you will see the same results as my method. 

i am thinking about making some changes to the fert, i will update the final fertilizer, but somebody still need to test it further after i make those changes, the changes will be made only to Ca, Mg and Fe while everything else will stay the same.


----------



## snausage

I'm surprised this hasn't generated more interest.....

I believe the idea came from this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14594

Long story short, a lot of ukaps members reported increased growth and greener plants with the 'special N' fertilizer. Of course no one knows exactly why this is, but the anecdotal evidence simply cannot be ignored. 

I'd love to try it out happi, but unfortunately I'm so busy these days that it'd be impossible for me to adhere to an exact dosing regimen.


----------



## happi

snausage said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't generated more interest.....
> 
> I believe the idea came from this thread http://ukaps.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14594
> 
> Long story short, a lot of ukaps members reported increased growth and greener plants with the 'special N' fertilizer. Of course no one knows exactly why this is, but the anecdotal evidence simply cannot be ignored.
> 
> I'd love to try it out happi, but unfortunately I'm so busy these days that it'd be impossible for me to adhere to an exact dosing regimen.


you are right about the idea coming from Tobi's fert, but it is not same as his stuff, my idea was inspired by PMDD, i had similar idea before but i was afraid to try it, i was working on this fert for quite some time, wasted so much dry chemicals to find the correct balance, finally this one worked well, somebody said why not use Mg and Ca sulfate in this mix, i have tried it and it does not work so well, Mg and Ca nitrate seems to work better. but i have not tried mixing the Mg sulfate with Ca nitrate, this mix might work, i have to try it to see how it goes. 

the whole idea was to get all the most important Nutrients in same solution, beside Phosphate, this might be possible, but i have yet to try it. in reality all the fertilizer are made the similar way, one might have less or more ferts than the others. if we compare mine and Tobi's fert then that is like comparing TPN vs Seachem, in the end they both fertilize the plants in similar ways. i have seen Tobi's removed Urea from his fert, but this is the main source in my Fert and its very important. 

if you think you do not have time to make the mix, i can send you everything premixed.


----------



## happi

i think there is a small problem though, i have noticed that Solubility of So4 and Ca(no3) does not work so well, i have asked this question here but everyone said it does mix fine. but i have noticed it today after mixing the solution, i see some white stuff on the bottom of the solution, which i did not see before when i made the same solution. so i don't know what is going on 
looks like i need to work further with this fertilizer, but i would like you hear from those who have better knowledge about the chemicals.


this is a new mix and i don't know what is causing the solution to have the left behind white stuff on the bottom.

1000ml solution
Urea (7 gram)
calcium nitrate (10 gram)
Magnesium nitrate (10 gram)
CSM+B (20 gram)
DTPA 11% (10 gram)
K2SO4 (30 Gram)
MnSO4 (1 gram)
MgSO4 (10 gram)
Ascorbic Acid (1g) (optional)
Potassium Sorbate (0.5g) (optional)


----------



## jgb77

From what I have read, not first hand knowledge, if mixing calcium nitrate with magnesium sulfate you are seeing calcium sulfate precipitate.
I just found this by looking online, and I would default to someone who actually knows how to figure this stuff out :icon_conf
Just trying to help you out.

John


----------



## happi

jgb77 said:


> From what I have read, not first hand knowledge, if mixing calcium nitrate with magnesium sulfate you are seeing calcium sulfate precipitate.
> I just found this by looking online, and I would default to someone who actually knows how to figure this stuff out :icon_conf
> Just trying to help you out.
> 
> John


hi john i have also figure that too much K2so4 is a problem too in the solution, i have made a seperate solution without any added k2so4 and it mixes well, but i also avoided adding Mgso4, this time i have tried the Miller's MicroPlex instead of csm+b, which have more Mg anyway. i think we should avoid adding any so4 in the same solution. 

i made a separate mix of phosphate and k2so4, which seems to mix well, we will see how plant respond to this.


----------



## plantbrain

There maybe some other non soluble material in the various salts, some of the sulfates are derived from a wide range of materials and can be less pure than say KNO3 or Kh2PO4 etc.

A little heat or hot water can often help.

Same with Trace mixes.

The other trick is adding about 1 ml per 10 mls of water with 5% distilled Vinegar, sake good and wait a few min, then add the salts. This removes the KH(a lot of or all). 

I have a lot of Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 from dosing marine planted tanks and gave it a try, but did not find any added benefits to Tobi's mix. If you dose lean and then dose richer, then this can lead to various differences. But if you dose rich and simply change the type of source of the Ca, NO3, K+ etc, this should not matter.

This is more likely what occurs.

Because once you mix all these ions together, they completely disassociate in water. So as far what is present......... it will be the same. The all in one Hoagland's solution and tougher chealtors for Fe, tend to use EDDHA to address PO4 and Fe precipitation, but that's bloody red and more suited for marine system's and pH ranges. 

Not sure if DTPA and some vinegar would make a decent all in one. Paul K and Neil Frank used it I think, but that was 15 years ago. I know Neil liked using Ca(NO3) since it was easier for him and his water had little Ca++. 
But so does mine today, I have no issues.


----------



## happi

plantbrain said:


> There maybe some other non soluble material in the various salts, some of the sulfates are derived from a wide range of materials and can be less pure than say KNO3 or Kh2PO4 etc.
> 
> A little heat or hot water can often help.
> 
> Same with Trace mixes.
> 
> The other trick is adding about 1 ml per 10 mls of water with 5% distilled Vinegar, sake good and wait a few min, then add the salts. This removes the KH(a lot of or all).
> 
> I have a lot of Ca(NO3)2 and Mg(NO3)2 from dosing marine planted tanks and gave it a try, but did not find any added benefits to Tobi's mix. If you dose lean and then dose richer, then this can lead to various differences. But if you dose rich and simply change the type of source of the Ca, NO3, K+ etc, this should not matter.
> 
> This is more likely what occurs.
> 
> Because once you mix all these ions together, they completely disassociate in water. So as far what is present......... it will be the same. The all in one Hoagland's solution and tougher chealtors for Fe, tend to use EDDHA to address PO4 and Fe precipitation, but that's bloody red and more suited for marine system's and pH ranges.
> 
> Not sure if DTPA and some vinegar would make a decent all in one. Paul K and Neil Frank used it I think, but that was 15 years ago. I know Neil liked using Ca(NO3) since it was easier for him and his water had little Ca++.
> But so does mine today, I have no issues.



hi tom, at what temp i could heat up the water before mixing stuff in it, what would happen if the water is too hot and i add the fertilizers?? 

should i do this when mixing k2so4, Mgno3, Cano3?

i also thought that these chemicals might not be 100% pure and whatever i am seeing is just a chemicals which could not dissolved, but it doesn't mean the i am lacking whatever i have added in there.


----------



## happi

new updated thread with extra changes. K2SO4 seems to not mix very well, i have taken it out of the solution, now solution seems to mix very well.


----------



## tetra10

where are you supposed to get this stuff (excluding online sources)?


----------



## happi

tetra10 said:


> where are you supposed to get this stuff (excluding online sources)?


i only know online sources, not sure if you can find them anywhere else.


----------



## dafil

Any updates,Happi?
Pics may be?


----------



## happi

dafil said:


> Any updates,Happi?
> Pics may be?


i dont have any update, i tear down my tank to setup a new one, but once the new tank becomes stable i will start to dose the ferts and see how it goes, but so far in the past fert had worked very well.


----------



## sketch804

yes happi, I would love some updates on this as well. I am always interested in new fert formulas. I use just typical EI chemicals but I get better color outa low tech barely fertalized tanks. I think the micro mixture will account for some of the differences in color, as far as my tanks is..

Ps. How is that L. Pantanal doing still??? Mine fully melted away, what a surprise! L. Cuba is still growing nicely though.


----------



## zimbo

Was curious, so what are the actual online companies you guys use to get all of the chemicals that goes into this? A few pages back someone mentioned something about GLA or Orlando? Are there more complete names of these companies or links that might help finding this stuff? 

Thanks,

Ryan


----------



## keithy

Ryan, 

GLA=green leaf aquarium and Orlando is the guy that you should communicate with if you want to get it from there. I got my ferts form him too. 

There is also another person that sells ferts, nilocg is his userID. I have not personally deal with him, but have read good things about him. 

Another person that I can think of is USERID fordtrannyman. I bought some extra ferts from him about 6 months ago. 

you can probably PM these ppl to find out about pricing and other stuff they sell. 

Good luck. 





zimbo said:


> Was curious, so what are the actual online companies you guys use to get all of the chemicals that goes into this? A few pages back someone mentioned something about GLA or Orlando? Are there more complete names of these companies or links that might help finding this stuff?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ryan


----------



## happi

zimbo said:


> Was curious, so what are the actual online companies you guys use to get all of the chemicals that goes into this? A few pages back someone mentioned something about GLA or Orlando? Are there more complete names of these companies or links that might help finding this stuff?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ryan



nilocg is a great person to deal with, he got better deal on ferts, but he does not have some of the ferts that are required in this recipe. you can buy Urea from ebay, very cheap.

Nilocg ferts:
http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189841


----------



## happi

sketch804 said:


> yes happi, I would love some updates on this as well. I am always interested in new fert formulas. I use just typical EI chemicals but I get better color outa low tech barely fertalized tanks. I think the micro mixture will account for some of the differences in color, as far as my tanks is..
> 
> Ps. How is that L. Pantanal doing still??? Mine fully melted away, what a surprise! L. Cuba is still growing nicely though.


there are no update since i no longer have that tank anymore, i have new ADA tank which am working on, aqua soil in this tank is causing brown water (using aqua soil from old tank), which need to be fixed before i start to fertilize the tank again. 

but i thought somebody else would have already tried this recipe by now?

my plants are suffering at the moment due to new change to the tank, but once established, i should have no problem growing them again.


----------



## tobystanton

happi said:


> there are no update since i no longer have that tank anymore, i have new ADA tank which am working on, aqua soil in this tank is causing brown water (using aqua soil from old tank), which need to be fixed before i start to fertilize the tank again.
> 
> but i thought somebody else would have already tried this recipe by now?
> 
> my plants are suffering at the moment due to new change to the tank, but once established, i should have no problem growing them again.


Try filling the tank with frog-bit or dwarf water lettuce, I had the same problem with brown water as you, 2 days after I put in the floaters it cleared.


----------



## happi

tobystanton said:


> Try filling the tank with frog-bit or dwarf water lettuce, I had the same problem with brown water as you, 2 days after I put in the floaters it cleared.


i think the problem is dust coming out of the soil, which is causing the brown water. i don't think floaters would suck up any dirt/dust.


----------



## sketch804

happi said:


> there are no update since i no longer have that tank anymore, i have new ADA tank which am working on, aqua soil in this tank is causing brown water (using aqua soil from old tank), which need to be fixed before i start to fertilize the tank again.
> 
> but i thought somebody else would have already tried this recipe by now?
> 
> my plants are suffering at the moment due to new change to the tank, but once established, i should have no problem growing them again.


Well I really want to try this one but I am just trying to settle in with new job, but things seem to be calming down now. But seems since I am setting up a few things I am going to try something different soon. Well hope they recover and all! If you lose L. 'Cuba' I got ya with a few stems, I think I have 3. Well good luck with what ever you get done over there, I hope all goes well.


----------



## TheFoleys

Haven't read all the posts. This fert regimen is basically old school miracle grow for indoor plants. Which at the risk of being flamed ill admit I have used with success in the past.


----------



## happi

TheFoleys said:


> Haven't read all the posts. This fert regimen is basically old school miracle grow for indoor plants. Which at the risk of being flamed ill admit I have used with success in the past.



if it was that easy then everybody would have used miracle grow.


----------



## Seattle_Aquarist

happi said:


> there are no update since i no longer have that tank anymore, i have new ADA tank which am working on, aqua soil in this tank is causing brown water (using aqua soil from old tank), which need to be fixed before i start to fertilize the tank again.
> 
> but i thought somebody else would have already tried this recipe by now?
> 
> my plants are suffering at the moment due to new change to the tank, but once established, i should have no problem growing them again.


Hi happi,

I would have thought you would have tried an inert substrate instead of ADA Aquasoil which (even when aged) contains nutrients. An inert substrate would help to best judge the actual impact of your fertilizer recipe and allow others to better duplicate your results.


----------



## happi

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi happi,
> 
> I would have thought you would have tried an inert substrate instead of ADA Aquasoil which (even when aged) contains nutrients. An inert substrate would help to best judge the actual impact of your fertilizer recipe and allow others to better duplicate your results.


sorry i got nothing else beside ADA soil, i think when the other person tried it he did not have aqua soil, he had good results.


----------



## zimbo

So I am back home after a bit of time away working at another hospital, and ordered all of the stuff to go into this mix. 

I spend the next month or two in a surgical research lab, so can attempt to mix it up with the proper mixers, hood, etc. I might even attempt to crack my college gen chem book to relearn some of those chemical solubility rules. 

However, before i do all of that, just wondered if anyone has attempted to mix it recently and if there were any further recommended changes?

Cheers,

Ryan


----------



## happi

i have created a similar recipe with stronger doses and made some minor changes, such as increase in KNO3 and added carbohydrate, vitamin, amino acid, and polyunsaturated fatty acid, we will see how plants are going to respond to this.


----------



## happi

it has been a while since i updated this thread. is anyone still trying this fert or has anyone already tried it? please do post your results. 

after seeing something building up in the solution (on the bottom, looks like paste) i took out the K2SO4 out of the recipe. but i think the reaction was caused by too much SO4 (sulfates) in the solution. however it did not effect the plant growth, its also not good to have too much sulfate in your planted tank anyway.


----------



## zimbo

Hey Folks

So Happi asked me to share my experiences with this forumula. And first off, thanks to happi for sharing it.

I have been using this formula since about November. The first batch i mixed i had included the K2So4 and ran into the solubility issue, as has been discussed. I have kept the original formula pretty much as is, although i still use the K2SO4 and just mix up a seperate bottle and dose the recommended P as well.

So my set up that i use it on:
90 gallon with Kessil Amazon Sun LEDs x2, injected CO2 with pH set at 6.8, and substrate consisting of kitty litter and miracle grow organic potting mix with whatever gravel/flurite cap i had lying around. Filtration is Fluval 305 and an Eheim 2217 and have a powerhead in the tank for circulation too as growth is quite dense. I do 50% + water changes once a week. 

I do have a decent fish load, its all rainbows although at least for the moment its mostly juveniles as i anticipate moving in May and had bred and sold off my adults. 

If i recall using proportional ratios i got a daily dose of 30mL a day for a 90 gallon. I found it to be too much, and generally use about 20mL a day and dose P every other day. With 30 i ran into a staghorn algae issue, and even at 20mL it still springs up and i have to watch it. I can't say i've hit the perfect amount yet, however, i've been interviewing for residency (I'm a 4th yr med student) the last few months so haven't been able to necessarily get it done every day since i've been out of state a fair bit. I'm looking into trying to figure out an automatic doser. 

Overall i found results to be impressive. I have experienced the really high growth rate that has been commented on before. Some people might not like this, and I do give the tank a really good haircut at least once a week. For an impoverished med student i have to say its been a nice plus as I do sell off a lot of the extras. For someone not interested in this you will likely need to dial dosing back a bit. Before using this i had always really struggled to get 'carpet plants' to grow well in the 25 in depth of the 90, however, no longer, and its been great to watch the tank floor completely close over after 3 years of futsing around with commercial ferts. 

One warning i will give with this is that with a CO2 system on tanks with rare fish pay closer attention to your O2 levels at night. I'd never ever run into a low oxygen problem before i used this fert mix. However the day after water changes the O2 drops significantly overnight. Basically lesson learned is run an airstone at night even if you've never had problems before. 

I have never tried EI dosing so can't compare it those interested. I could never interpret the sticki's on the subject here on the forum, so never bothered with it. I also am not a prolific tester. At the end of the day yes i love to have platns in the tanks and for them to grow well, however, my fish are my first priority and i know chemically i do water changes often enough and have enough filtration that i don't get into a danger zone. As a med student there's also only so many minutes in a day to mess around with testing, etc. So for those wanting any water measurements specifically i'll say you'll need to give it a whirl. 

I have included a couple pics of my tank as of this evening. I haven't bothered with scaping much given i'm moving soon and honestly wood availability in CO is actually quite limited and comes at a steep price. I have been selling off plants steadily at 1-2 folks a day for the last couple weeks so as you can see while a lot of growth is now gone, its not exactly sparse either at the mo. 

Overall i give it a big thumbs up and will continue to use it!

Cheers,

Ryan


----------



## happi

*ZIMBO*

thanks for your feedback, i am still working further to improve this fertilizer, i think there is more to it. anyway were you able to test the solultion? i mean in the Lab? i wanted to be sure what was causing the stuff to build up on the bottom, if you did test it please do post it. IMO i think it is all sulfate that was falling from the solution, sulfate is generally bad if overdosed in the tank, if its a only sulfate that is falling from the solution then there is no need to worry, this will only make the fertilizer even better.


----------



## happi

updating the thread, check back in 10 minutes


----------



## UDGags

If you have a sample of the crud at the bottom I could run a quick FTIR on it.


----------



## zimbo

Happi

So i have mixed two batches with a lab mixer, about to mix the 3rd. So I left the K2SO4 out of it the second time and never had any ppt issues. It does produce some ppt when you leave it in the fridge over time, but nothing compared to when i had the K2SO4 in there. 

From using a lab mixer, it is a pretty saturated solution, and does struggle a bit when you get to the last ingredient or two. Personally i plan on getting an auto doser at some point and figured in that situation i'd likely double or triple the dH2O and just increase the volume dosed, although this won't necessarily be practical for most folks.


----------



## happi

UDGags said:


> If you have a sample of the crud at the bottom I could run a quick FTIR on it.


 
thanks i will let you know whever i make the next solution.


----------



## happi

zimbo said:


> Happi
> 
> So i have mixed two batches with a lab mixer, about to mix the 3rd. So I left the K2SO4 out of it the second time and never had any ppt issues. It does produce some ppt when you leave it in the fridge over time, but nothing compared to when i had the K2SO4 in there.
> 
> From using a lab mixer, it is a pretty saturated solution, and does struggle a bit when you get to the last ingredient or two. Personally i plan on getting an auto doser at some point and figured in that situation i'd likely double or triple the dH2O and just increase the volume dosed, although this won't necessarily be practical for most folks.





zimbo said:


> *From using a lab mixer, it is a pretty saturated solution, and does struggle a bit when you get to the last ingredient or two.*


which last ingredient does it struggle with??


----------



## happi

you should try this solution and Test it and see how plant will respond to it for you. i need people who are willing to test this one. some minor changes are made. 

1000ml solution
Urea (7 gram)
calcium nitrate (10 gram)
Magnesium nitrate (10 gram)
CSM+B (15 gram)
MnSO4 (1 gram)
Ascorbic Acid (1g) (optional)
Potassium Sorbate (0.5g) (optional)

make sure to dose PO4 seperate 3x week 0.50ppm (around 0.16 P)

even though Ascorbic Acid and Potassium Sorbate are optional, i think Ascorbic acid help plant with better growth. add them in the solution before adding anything else and wait for 10 minutes before adding anything else.


----------



## AaronT

Why not use KCL instead of K2SO4? I agree the K2SO4 is a pain to dissolve.


----------



## happi

AaronT said:


> Why not use KCL instead of K2SO4? I agree the K2SO4 is a pain to dissolve.


i would but i need a some source of S which come from K2SO4, S is also important for plant growth, it should not be completely taken out. plus i think Cl is bad for plants if its overdosed.


----------



## fattboa

The magnesium/calcium nitrates reminds me of the older German formulas If I remember correctly. Also reminds me of Tobi's mix. Those Germans love their nitrates.
I've been reading a plant physiology book for fun and its saying something about the negative NO3 ions and positive NH4+ balancing the pH intracellulary (remember compartmentalization results in different pH values). Maybe that's the reason it works? Though the book is mainly about terrestrial plant. Just some preliminary thoughts, nothing conclusive. 
Dose away


----------



## dantra

fattboa said:


> The magnesium/calcium nitrates reminds me of the older German formulas If I remember correctly. Also reminds me of Tobi's mix. Those Germans love their nitrates.


Thats what Tom said. You can read about why some opt out of using Urea *here* where Tobi intoduced is mix originally at UKAPS. This is a quote from Tobi's instructions:

I'm producing ferts commercially (Aqua Rebell and sell them through my shop "Aquasabi") for people who do not want to work with all those chemicals.
But here is the recipe for the new nitrogen fertilizer, i've posted it at my community http://translate.google.de/translat...al-n-mikro-spezial-hybrid-t12464.html&act=url too:

for one liter water add :

25,9 g potassiumnitrate
29,5 g calciumnitrate
17,6 g magnesiumnitrate
5 g urea ( :arrow: your tankwater pH should be <7 to avoid problems with ammonia)

That will add 1 ppm NO3, 0,2 ppm K, 0,1 ppm Ca and 0,033 ppm Mg using 1 ml per 50 l tankwater.

*Here is where you can order Tobi's mix*

I've read about this about a year ago but I couldn't use urea because my pH is north of 7.0. The mix isn't new and was tried in the past but if Happi "improved" on it a bit then I say have at it. Just be very careful when using Urea. I think the focus is more on getting the nutrients to your plants that they are lacking.

I'm in Texas where the water is basically liquid rock. Now one would think that I have enough calcium and magnesium because my GH and KH are through the roof, most of the times north of 14 sometimes as high as 22. What I discovered was that the water is very rich in calcium but had very little to no magnesium so when I started adding just magnesium the plants perked up and took off.

Just like in the UK, the water is rich in calcium but has very little magnesium in some places so when they started adding magnesium the plants reacted in a very positive way. If your plants are getting the nutrients they need and are none-limiting, no amount of Urea is going to change that. Just be careful and enjoy the plants 

Dan


----------



## happi

Tobi also stated K+ stunting the plants, this is not true at all, plant need K+ more than any other things, IMO it should be always higher, least 3 times higher than the Nitrogen. Tobi also have taken out Urea from his fert, while i think Urea is the main player here for fast plant growth. 

am not working with Tobi's fert or trying to modify it, this is not even related to his fert at all, am working on this fert based on the research i been doing on plants, how they respond to differnt sources of nitrates etc. 

someone told me to use Mg sulfate and Ca sulfate to get same results but IMO it have soulibilty issue when adding in the solution, Mg and Ca nitrate were the only good source to work with. its not only the nitrate which is important here, but Mg and Ca are more important.


----------



## fattboa

dantra said:


> Thats what Tom said. You can read about why some opt out of using Urea *here* where Tobi intoduced is mix originally at UKAPS. This is a quote from Tobi's instructions:
> 
> I'm producing ferts commercially (Aqua Rebell and sell them through my shop "Aquasabi") for people who do not want to work with all those chemicals.
> But here is the recipe for the new nitrogen fertilizer, i've posted it at my community http://translate.google.de/translat...al-n-mikro-spezial-hybrid-t12464.html&act=url too:
> 
> for one liter water add :
> 
> 25,9 g potassiumnitrate
> 29,5 g calciumnitrate
> 17,6 g magnesiumnitrate
> 5 g urea ( :arrow: your tankwater pH should be <7 to avoid problems with ammonia)
> 
> That will add 1 ppm NO3, 0,2 ppm K, 0,1 ppm Ca and 0,033 ppm Mg using 1 ml per 50 l tankwater.
> 
> *Here is where you can order Tobi's mix*
> 
> I've read about this about a year ago but I couldn't use urea because my pH is north of 7.0. The mix isn't new and was tried in the past but if Happi "improved" on it a bit then I say have at it. Just be very careful when using Urea. I think the focus is more on getting the nutrients to your plants that they are lacking.
> 
> I'm in Texas where the water is basically liquid rock. Now one would think that I have enough calcium and magnesium because my GH and KH are through the roof, most of the times north of 14 sometimes as high as 22. What I discovered was that the water is very rich in calcium but had very little to no magnesium so when I started adding just magnesium the plants perked up and took off.
> 
> Just like in the UK, the water is rich in calcium but has very little magnesium in some places so when they started adding magnesium the plants reacted in a very positive way. If your plants are getting the nutrients they need and are none-limiting, no amount of Urea is going to change that. Just be careful and enjoy the plants
> 
> Dan


I did buy one kilogram of urea but I have yet to use it. Maybe I will experiment a little. Currently trying synthetic auxins (NAA/NAD) at around 10-9M (or at least I hope). My pH is also north of 7 and I am aware of the issues but need to look at a few graphs regarding disassociation vs pH to gauge the danger or risk. I don't think all of the NH4+ will convert into NH3 just as you reach a pH of 7, perhaps a bit more? Interesting, the water (desalinated seawater really) around here is also very poor in Mg yet high in Ca with but also soft I believe. Could not find any good kits and not bothered to test at the university (too many questions asked)
I do find some very interesting products around here, like this one: http://www.chema.com.eg/SpcialFertilizers.html scroll down to Elodia* (sic) which reminded/lead me to this while searching about allelopathy a while back: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...vcK2r&sig=AHIEtbRuiaqKyJaJOnablLl0KOdPpBM2WQ7
Which coincidentally is also done in Germany! Those Germans love aquatic plants. I only read the abstract and skimmed the paper so apologies if it is not related.



happi said:


> Tobi also stated K+ stunting the plants, this is not true at all, plant need K+ more than any other things, IMO it should be always higher, least 3 times higher than the Nitrogen. Tobi also have taken out Urea from his fert, while i think Urea is the main player here for fast plant growth.
> 
> am not working with Tobi's fert or trying to modify it, this is not even related to his fert at all, am working on this fert based on the research i been doing on plants, how they respond to differnt sources of nitrates etc.
> 
> someone told me to use Mg sulfate and Ca sulfate to get same results but IMO it have soulibilty issue when adding in the solution, Mg and Ca nitrate were the only good source to work with. its not only the nitrate which is important here, but Mg and Ca are more important.


I wish you good luck.


----------



## happi

fattboa said:


> I did buy one kilogram of urea but I have yet to use it. Maybe I will experiment a little. Currently trying synthetic auxins (NAA/NAD) at around 10-9M (or at least I hope). My pH is also north of 7 and I am aware of the issues but need to look at a few graphs to gauge the danger or risk. Interesting, the water (desalinated seawater really) around here is also very poor in Mg yet high in Ca with but also soft I believe. Could not find any good kits and not bothered to test at the university (too many questions asked)
> I do find some very interesting products around here, like this one: http://www.chema.com.eg/SpcialFertilizers.html scroll down to Elodia* (sic) which reminded/lead me to this while searching about allelopathy a while back: https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...vcK2r&sig=AHIEtbRuiaqKyJaJOnablLl0KOdPpBM2WQ7
> Which coincidentally is also done in Germany! Those Germans love aquatic plants. I only read the abstract and skimmed the paper so apologies if it is not related.
> 
> 
> I wish you good luck.


am not sure wheather to take this the wrong way or the right way?


----------



## fattboa

happi said:


> am not sure wheather to take this the wrong way or the right way?


I am actively seeking ingredients to test your fertilizer but they are a little hard to come by in my country (only 25kg bags of calcium nitrate - thats ~55 lbs).
I meant it in the most sincere form. Trying new concepts will benefit this hobby as a whole


----------



## happi

fattboa said:


> I am actively seeking ingredients to test your fertilizer but they are a little hard to come by in my country (only 25kg bags of calcium nitrate - thats ~55 lbs).
> I meant it in the most sincere form. Trying new concepts will benefit this hobby as a whole


k then

i think you can get it from them for less quantity, am sure they can do that if you ask them.


----------



## happi

Fattboa

i highly suggest reading this reasearch paper, this will unlock many question and answers, its quite long but very useful. 

http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6862E/X6862E03.htm


----------



## fattboa

happi said:


> Fattboa
> 
> i highly suggest reading this reasearch paper, this will unlock many question and answers, its quite long but very useful.
> 
> http://www.fao.org/docrep/003/X6862E/X6862E03.htm


Thank you for the suggestion. I just checked the sources (did NOT read it yet) and they seem to be ancient. Are they still relevant?
I need to read a lot more about botany and aquatic plants in general. Funny how I could not care less about it while in college. I'll try searching in the library for more recent publications if I have some time away from the lab.
Thank you


----------



## AaronT

happi said:


> i would but i need a some source of S which come from K2SO4, S is also important for plant growth, it should not be completely taken out. plus i think Cl is bad for plants if its overdosed.



True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?


----------



## happi

AaronT said:


> True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?


 
aaron, i never really used it before, i dont know if it gas out or not.


----------



## fattboa

Since I could not find all of the chemicals listed, I tried urea by itself. Strangely enough, the baby tears started pearling almost immediately after addition of dissolved urea (4 dissolved pellets into ~200L). I added the the small amount due to the stoichiometric ratio and since my pH is above 7 I believe (although the NH3:NH4 ratio is probably low at pH 7ish). No Co2 is added. I know one of the products is Co2 of urea hydrolysis but it works that fast? Or is there some other explanation?
Would love to here some input about this and my previous points.
Happy growing everyone - baby tears are still pearling ~40 minutes after urea addition


----------



## dantra

happi said:


> Tobi also stated K+ stunting the plants, this is not true at all, plant need K+ more than any other things, IMO it should be always higher, least 3 times higher than the Nitrogen. Tobi also have taken out Urea from his fert, while i think Urea is the main player here for fast plant growth.
> 
> am not working with Tobi's fert or trying to modify it, this is not even related to his fert at all, am working on this fert based on the research i been doing on plants, how they respond to differnt sources of nitrates etc.
> 
> someone told me to use Mg sulfate and Ca sulfate to get same results but IMO it have soulibilty issue when adding in the solution, Mg and Ca nitrate were the only good source to work with. its not only the nitrate which is important here, but Mg and Ca are more important.


Seems odd that you say "your mix" has nothing to do with or is not at all related to Tobi's mix but on the Ukaps forum you used Tobi's Spezial N before you had said chemicals, this is your post from *page nine* from Jan 2012:
-------------------
am having a hard time finding the chemicals. cant find magnesium nitrate anywhere in USA, anyone help me find this.

i found calcium nitrate, can anyone check if this is the correct one.

[Ebay Link Removed] ... 1c22be4d49
------------------
On *page ten*, Tobi seemed to help you out quit a bit. Wet and Orlando also helped out. Dude just give credit where credit is due, it's rather obvious.

I actually got my ferts from a friend of mine up north but when I ran out I got the ferts I needed from Orlando:



















I asked many questions about this very mix as well as others on the Barr Report. They were all very helpful. Although I didn't need the Calcium Nitrate I got it anyway because I used that in the original mix when I was testing it out with my son. I never added it to the tank that had the fauna, just the test tank that had deionized water.

My buddy up north sent this to me when I asked him about it. It was about a year ago.










Organic Sulfate of Potash???  ???









He also said I may be interested in something he was using and sent me two pounds of Monoammonium Phosphate. I'm using it but it is kicking my butt somewhat. *Monoammonium Phosphate* *11-52-0*:










I was also sent a mixture of plant hormones with vitamins added to use during water changes and or pruning which he mixed himself after years of trail and error. 

Fact is many people helped me out with ferts, mixtures, measurements but not for one second will I say it was me, my creation or mine. I just might have improved on what others had done before me as you "may" have. When I spoke with Luis Navarrow, he gave me great advice as well as Frank Wazeter and Mike Senske but not once would I think of taking their ideas or advice as my own and claim as much.

How many times has Tom Barr helped us all out with his generosity? He is relentless with his advice. He has helped me out on a number of occasions on here and the Barr Report. How many times has Tom given credit to those who deserve it? He has done it on many of occasions. The bottom line is man up and give credit where credit is due.

Enjoy the hobby, grow great plants and have fun! :wink:

Dan


----------



## dantra

No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.










I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.

Dan


----------



## Hoppy

fattboa said:


> Since I could not find all of the chemicals listed, I tried urea by itself. Strangely enough, the baby tears started pearling almost immediately after addition of dissolved urea (4 dissolved pellets into ~200L). I added the the small amount due to the stoichiometric ratio and since my pH is above 7 I believe (although the NH3:NH4 ratio is probably low at pH 7ish). No Co2 is added. I know one of the products is Co2 of urea hydrolysis but it works that fast? Or is there some other explanation?
> Would love to here some input about this and my previous points.
> Happy growing everyone - baby tears are still pearling ~40 minutes after urea addition


When you add urea to water, does it immediately dissolve, and does that mean it undergoes hydrolysis? If so, the CO2 released should only last a couple of hours or so in the water before escaping to the air. Or, am I missing something, since I am no chemist?


----------



## happi

dantra said:


> Seems odd that you say "your mix" has nothing to do with or is not at all related to Tobi's mix but on the Ukaps forum you used Tobi's Spezial N before you had said chemicals, this is your post from *page nine* from Jan 2012:
> -------------------
> am having a hard time finding the chemicals. cant find magnesium nitrate anywhere in USA, anyone help me find this.
> 
> i found calcium nitrate, can anyone check if this is the correct one.
> 
> [Ebay Link Removed] ... 1c22be4d49
> ------------------
> On *page ten*, Tobi seemed to help you out quit a bit. Wet and Orlando also helped out. Dude just give credit where credit is due, it's rather obvious.
> 
> I actually got my ferts from a friend of mine up north but when I ran out I got the ferts I needed from Orlando:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I asked many questions about this very mix as well as others on the Barr Report. They were all very helpful. Although I didn't need the Calcium Nitrate I got it anyway because I used that in the original mix when I was testing it out with my son. I never added it to the tank that had the fauna, just the test tank that had deionized water.
> 
> My buddy up north sent this to me when I asked him about it. It was about a year ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Organic Sulfate of Potash???  ???
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He also said I may be interested in something he was using and sent me two pounds of Monoammonium Phosphate. I'm using it but it is kicking my butt somewhat. *Monoammonium Phosphate* *11-52-0*:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was also sent a mixture of plant hormones with vitamins added to use during water changes and or pruning which he mixed himself after years of trail and error.
> 
> Fact is many people helped me out with ferts, mixtures, measurements but not for one second will I say it was me, my creation or mine. I just might have improved on what others had done before me as you "may" have. When I spoke with Luis Navarrow, he gave me great advice as well as Frank Wazeter and Mike Senske but not once would I think of taking their ideas or advice as my own and claim as much.
> 
> How many times has Tom Barr helped us all out with his generosity? He is relentless with his advice. He has helped me out on a number of occasions on here and the Barr Report. How many times has Tom given credit to those who deserve it? He has done it on many of occasions. The bottom line is man up and give credit where credit is due.
> 
> Enjoy the hobby, grow great plants and have fun! :wink:
> 
> Dan


you are right about me posting at the UKAPS and asking questions, but after i ordered all the needed chemicals i never really got chance to try it, i thought i will take a different apparoch and try something differnt, i already knew from begning about the benefits of the urea, most tested it and failed and reported no change in plants etc, but i think they did not do it right. i was also afraid to use Urea/amonium in my tank, when i first made the fert and got many comments saying how i will have green water, algae, fish deaths etc, you can see the first few comments on my thread. pmdd also used urea but pmdd was very lean. you have to understand that when we make a fertilizer, its the same concept, NPK,Fe etc all the there is all the fertilizers, only the sources are changed and the amount is changed. you will need to do alot of testing and observe the plants, i did not do this in one day, it took me some time to make the proper balance, plants did not respond right at first try, i have to waste my time and money while trying to remake the correct balanced solution. so far this one worked well. 

its true that tobi's fert only gave me more understanding of ferts but i never tried to copy his work, there is a member name KEKON, i have read his posts, his work gave me more ideas about plants growth, but my fert origanally came from PMDD with some tweaks. i have read many articles, research papers on aquatic plants and i am still learning more. 

if you feel Tobi's fert is better choice, you are welcome to use his mix, instead of mine. keep in mind even a small ammount of urea makes all the difference here, its all about balance. with his fert you will have to add extra k+,p,n,fe etc, i try to keep everything in same solution beside P and K, while keeping the plants healthy and growing. i am still working on my fert, i have already included a need of more Mn in the fert, i am also working on Amino acid and differnt source of Fe to make this fert even better. 

Tobi said not to add too much k+, his K+ is very lean, i said add higher ammount of K+ if you want your plants to grow.

EDIT: sorry i forgot about that i did tried tobi's fert for couple of days with no good results and went back to my own dosing. however his addition of Ca and Mg nitrate did gave me a new approach to adding it with pmdd and modify it further, which wasnt very possible with other type of salts. so i will give him a credit about Ca and Mg nitrate even though it was originally used before in other ferts.


----------



## happi

all those members including Tobi should gave credit to the first person who made the pmdd, pps pro and then tom barr's EI dosing, the idea orginally came from that. the concept of the fertilizer remain the same only the sources has been changed. 

somebody else will come out with another fert tommarow which might have same stuff as Tobis, while some tweaks to it, who will you blame at that time , Tobi, Tom barr, pmdd?? 

if no one is intersted i can stop the experiment here and you can go buy tobi's water bottles for more money. good luck.

EDIT: i have already given Credit to PMDD, i have already stated it that idea came from PMDD.


----------



## happi

dantra said:


> No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.
> 
> Dan


you can ask this from *Jorran,* read his posts.


----------



## fattboa

Hoppy said:


> When you add urea to water, does it immediately dissolve, and does that mean it undergoes hydrolysis? If so, the CO2 released should only last a couple of hours or so in the water before escaping to the air. Or, am I missing something, since I am no chemist?


I believe the enzyme urea is needed for urea hydrolysis. I dissolved urea in a small amount of water and then added it to the tank. Urea hydrolysis may occur without an enzyme but the rate would probably be very slow. An enzyme would sure speed things up by a billion times or something like that so non enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis would be negligible. 
I would also guess that Co2 should also escape into the air unless completely dissolved and that should only take a couple of hours. However, I observed the baby tears pearling for roughly 1.5 hours after urea addition until I turned off the lights. This is from roughly 0.25ppm urea addition. Until I repeat the same results I should probably refrain from these remarks so who knows. Sorry for the long answer

------------------------------
Tobi's fertilizer looks to be a slightly modified Hoagland nutrient solution which is a modified Knop solution (potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate and magnesium sulfate among others). The removal of potassium phosphate would certainly reflect his idea of too much potassium being a bad thing. The use of magnesium nitrate instead of sulfate, I am not so sure about it but have not pondered deeply. Perhaps just needed more nitrates. The use of ammonium containing compound seems to follow Hoagland.
So in the end we're using a slightly modified nutrient solution that's been used since the 1860s or something like that. (Knop is a German scientist.)
Happy planting all
EDIT: what is the benefit of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?


----------



## dantra

happi said:


> you can ask this from *Jorran,* read his posts.


I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.



fattboa said:


> ------------------------------
> Tobi's fertilizer looks to be a slightly modified Hoagland nutrient solution which is a modified Knop solution (potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, potassium phosphate and magnesium sulfate among others). The removal of potassium phosphate would certainly reflect his idea of too much potassium being a bad thing. The use of magnesium nitrate instead of sulfate, I am not so sure about it but have not pondered deeply. Perhaps just needed more nitrates. The use of ammonium containing compound seems to follow Hoagland.
> So in the end we're using a slightly modified nutrient solution that's been used since the 1860s or something like that. (Knop is a German scientist.)
> Happy planting all
> EDIT: what is the benefit of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?


Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.

Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.

Dan


----------



## happi

dantra said:


> I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.
> 
> 
> 
> Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.
> 
> Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.
> 
> Dan


read post #79

co2 was only increased after plants were already growing fast, otherwise co2 was kept the same as it was when dosing EI. 

its easy to separate the solutions from NPK FE Etc, but i think people rather use something that is already balanced, nothing goes extra in the tank, it will be all used. its not hard to make each solution separate.


----------



## fattboa

dantra said:


> I don't understand the statement, can you link the post? That plant was stunted when I planted it and showed the progression of it as it grew on the Barr Report. Like I mentioned above, nutrients where the easy part CO2 was a pain in the rear end to get right.
> 
> 
> 
> Tobi's idea was to create sort of a "super nitrogen solution", he kept everything separate by design. It was his intention to do so. He didn't keep it separate because he thought it was a bad thing, he wanted control over it. Keeping it separate I believe is the best thing you can do because every tank is different, one tank may need a little of potassium phosphate while another may need it in abundance. Hence the genius of keeping it separate.
> 
> Exactly, thus the courtesy of acknowledgements.
> 
> Dan


Definitely looks like a logical solution to the problem. I apologize for misunderstanding Tobi.

Now onto a related subject. Today I replaced 2x150 metal halides (over a 50ish gallon tank) with 55W total T5s. I added ~0.25ppm of urea and did not notice any pearling for roughly 2-3 hours. 10-15 minutes after I reinstalled the metal halides pearling was restored. Please note that the baby teas did not pearl previous to urea addition (even with the use of metal halides). So it may seem that the Co2 released from urea hydrolysis can be used by the plants.
Did any one notice a similar result?


----------



## dantra

happi said:


> read post #79
> 
> co2 was only increased after plants were already growing fast, otherwise co2 was kept the same as it was when dosing EI.


I found CO2 to be as moody as a woman (no offense ladies) always needing attention.


happi said:


> its easy to separate the solutions from NPK FE Etc, but i think people rather use something that is already balanced, nothing goes extra in the tank, it will be all used. its not hard to make each solution separate.


Agreed. I prefer to dose everything separately though, I just like the control. Although I did add Urea, Magnesium Nitrate and KNO3 in one bottle when I was experimenting with it with excellent results.

Dan


----------



## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> True, but I dose daily so wouldn't it just gas off?



Chloride vs chlorine are two VERY different things, chloride will not degas, chlorine will. Ask yourself what is the difference between chloride and chlorine.


----------



## Hoppy

fattboa said:


> I believe the enzyme urea is needed for urea hydrolysis. I dissolved urea in a small amount of water and then added it to the tank. Urea hydrolysis may occur without an enzyme but the rate would probably be very slow. An enzyme would sure speed things up by a billion times or something like that so non enzyme catalyzed hydrolysis would be negligible.
> I would also guess that Co2 should also escape into the air unless completely dissolved and that should only take a couple of hours. However, I observed the baby tears pearling for roughly 1.5 hours after urea addition until I turned off the lights. This is from roughly 0.25ppm urea addition. Until I repeat the same results I should probably refrain from these remarks so who knows. Sorry for the long answer


Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.


----------



## plantbrain

dantra said:


> No amount of ferts helped this plant out when my son and I was experimenting with it. I asked Tom about it and he said it was CO2. When we cranked up the CO2 the plant surprisingly responded very well to it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've come to one conclusion. Plants don't care where the ferts come from the most important thing is CO2. Thats just my opinion.
> 
> Dan


To be fair, R mac does well with lower KH's, I've had trouble no matter what I seemed to do at KH of 11 or 17 in various places I've lived. So we do find a lot of exceptions also. I can grow the snot out of it in my 1 degree tap water here though.
Growth rates will vary 20X even under good conditions for various light/CO2 combinations(see Tropica's example with light and CO2), this in turn, will obviously influence nutrient demand 10-20X.

That's a pretty big target to hit with a narrow range dosing routine.
Rich sediments or rich water column will hit it, but obviously, less can also hit the lower ranges.


----------



## plantbrain

Hoppy said:


> Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.


CO(NH2)2 (s) + H2O = 2NH3 + CO2

For each mole of urea, you get 1 mole of CO2 and 2 moles of NH3, actually mostly NH4 due to the pH's we have.

Not much, I've added up to 0.8 ppm per day of NH4 from NH4Cl and Urea sources. So if you dose .5 ppm of NH4 from urea, you are not getting very much CO2 from that.

I use fish for NH4 generally though since they like stuff like water and and all:tongue:


----------



## happi

*Dantra*

we can end this debate now, i am here to only help our TPT members and in return i haven't ask anything else, no money nada nothing. Tobi's was very smart and i would say clever to use the Ca Mg nitrate to provide Ca and Mg, nitrates are highly soluble while Mg Ca sulfate struggles to stay in the solution, if you or others feel that whatever am doing is exact copy of his fert then we can stop it here and we can request the mod to close this thread. 

i admire Tobi's work, i have learned some stuff from him, if he was here on TPT forum i would personally thank him. but his work also came from other sources, i also looked at many sources including his work, pmdd, KEKON's work, there are many members who are involved in it. 

if you still feel that this is his copy then find me a different source of Ca and Mg which are highly soluble and are not based on sulfates. this will make the ingredients looks different on the paper, resulting in completely different fertilizer, but with same concept, just like any other fert. the plant will still respond and grow.

i am working on next release which will include at least 0.30-0.40ppm of Mg and 0.50-0.70ppm of Ca, based on my research plant can use anywhere between 0.50-1ppm of Ca and 0.20-0.50ppm of Mg per day. this will also decrease or limit the needed for GH booster etc, also resulting in less need for water changes. 

last thing i want to say is that thanks to everyone who are trying the fert and testing it. this is only beneficial for our TPT community.


----------



## fattboa

Hoppy said:


> Thank you. It is clearly more complicated than I assumed. If one were to add 1 ppm of urea to water, what ppm of CO2 would be released as the urea hydrolyzed? I'm asking to get a feel for whether this has any chance to be a significant contributor to the CO2 in the water.


You're most welcome. You'd get the same concentration of Co2 as urea due to the same stoichiometry. I.e. 1 ppm, not significant enough overall. 

Another update: I only noticed pearling in the area where I added the dissolved urea (near the return from the filter) so it seems localized. The other side of the tank did not have any pearling so I added one pellet to the other side (other side of the return) and some time later the baby tears are pearling as well. So the Co2 released it seems to have a localized effect. The return from the filter is directed somewhat upwards so there is probably reasonable flow. I assume once urea is dissolved it should assume the density of the water so I am not sure why this happens.
The question is why the pearling now? Is ~0.25ppm Co2 enough to sustain photosynthesis for 5-6 hours? Or did it just kick start everything? (induced protein synthesis????)



happi said:


> Dantra
> 
> we can end this debate now, i am here to only help our TPT members and in return i haven't ask anything else, no money nada nothing. Tobi's was very smart and i would say clever to use the Ca Mg nitrate to provide Ca and Mg, nitrates are highly soluble while Mg Ca sulfate struggles to stay in the solution, if you or others feel that whatever am doing is exact copy of his fert then we can stop it here and we can request the mod to close this thread.
> 
> i admire Tobi's work, i have learned some stuff from him, if he was here on TPT forum i would personally thank him. but his work also came from other sources, i also looked at many sources including his work, pmdd, KEKON's work, there are many members who are involved in it.
> 
> if you still feel that this is his copy then find me a different source of Ca and Mg which are highly soluble and are not based on sulfates. this will make the ingredients looks different on the paper, resulting in completely different fertilizer, but with same concept, just like any other fert. the plant will still respond and grow.
> 
> i am working on next release which will include at least 0.30-0.40ppm of Mg and 0.50-0.70ppm of Ca, based on my research plant can use anywhere between 0.50-1ppm of Ca and 0.20-0.50ppm of Mg per day. this will also decrease or limit the needed for GH booster etc, also resulting in less need for water changes.
> 
> last thing i want to say is that thanks to everyone who are trying the fert and testing it. this is only beneficial for our TPT community.


The use of Mg/Ca nitrate predates every aquatic plant fertilizer. Please look up Knop's nutrient solution. It was developed in the 1860s or something. Tobi's fertilizer and the fertilizer listed in this thread is a slightly modified Knop/Hoagland solution (macronutrient wise). Not to downplay his and your contribution in making it popular but not completely original.
What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate? Not for preservation I presume.


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## happi

fattboa said:


> You're most welcome. You'd get the same concentration of Co2 as urea due to the same stoichiometry. I.e. 1 ppm, not significant enough overall.
> 
> Another update: I only noticed pearling in the area where I added the dissolved urea (near the return from the filter) so it seems localized. The other side of the tank did not have any pearling so I added one pellet to the other side (other side of the return) and some time later the baby tears are pearling as well. So the Co2 released it seems to have a localized effect. The return from the filter is directed somewhat upwards so there is probably reasonable flow. I assume once urea is dissolved it should assume the density of the water so I am not sure why this happens.
> The question is why the pearling now? Is ~0.25ppm Co2 enough to sustain photosynthesis for 5-6 hours? Or did it just kick start everything? (induced protein synthesis????)
> 
> 
> 
> The use of Mg/Ca nitrate predates every aquatic plant fertilizer. Please look up Knop's nutrient solution. It was developed in the 1860s or something. Tobi's fertilizer and the fertilizer listed in this thread is a slightly modified Knop/Hoagland solution (macronutrient wise). Not to downplay his and your contribution in making it popular but not completely original.
> What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate? Not for preservation I presume.


nothing is original in this world my friend, i will give you good example:

who made the first jet fighter?? Russia? USA? Germany?? even if one of them made it first and later other copied it, then who get the credit? other have made minor changes to the jet with better engine, tail, wings etc, the concept stated the same, jet flew either way, weather it had more bigger wings or smaller, the only difference was slight improvement. we are talking about same for the fertilizer, the original idea of fertilizer can go back many years, but we continue to modify it for improvement. i never said mine was original, i have clearly said that it was created based on research, observation etc. 
*
What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?
*
one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.


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## dantra

happi said:


> *Dantra*
> 
> we can end this debate now


No debate just a discussion, don't take it personal. I've actually commended you if you improved on what "Tobi" has done. I was just pointing it out, you know, where it was used previously when it was introduced. Acknowledgements and references aren't bad things, no matter to whom it's referring. I didn't know fertilizers was such a hot topic.

Enjoy your ferts and happy planting.

Dan


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## fattboa

happi said:


> nothing is original in this world my friend, i will give you good example:
> 
> who made the first jet fighter?? Russia? USA? Germany?? even if one of them made it first and later other copied it, then who get the credit? other have made minor changes to the jet with better engine, tail, wings etc, the concept stated the same, jet flew either way, weather it had more bigger wings or smaller, the only difference was slight improvement. we are talking about same for the fertilizer, the original idea of fertilizer can go back many years, but we continue to modify it for improvement. i never said mine was original, i have clearly said that it was created based on research, observation etc.
> *
> What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?
> *
> one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.


I definitely understand your point. Thank your for the explanation. I assume keeping it acidic is due to this phenomenon? 








From http://sulfur.nigc.ir/en/sulfuruses...ementalsulfurfertilizers/sulfursulfurwithiron
Or is there another reason? I knew about the use of both for preservation.


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## AaronT

I'm guessing one could simply crush up a Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) tablet and dissolve that? I realize these have other little binders like magnesium stearate and such, but they shouldn't hurt anything right?


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## happi

what do you guys think about using Potassium ascorbate, it release K+ and ascorbic acid into the solution, i am looking into K+ which can be mixed in same solution without solubility issue. if anyone have better option please do share.


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## plantbrain

AaronT said:


> I'm guessing one could simply crush up a Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) tablet and dissolve that? I realize these have other little binders like magnesium stearate and such, but they shouldn't hurt anything right?


Nope, folks have done this, you can do this for the traces. Some used various vitamins, in fact, Fe gluconate etc, those can be bought from Vitamin makers. You canb get various chelators and ligans, amino acids that are very weak organic binders. 

Some used super thrive for years(I was one of them) a cocktail of plant growth regulators and vitamins. Did not do much for the plants, made me feel good though. 

AA and PS are used mostly as acidification and/or anti fungal agent.
5% vinegar will also destroy KH and acidify the trace mix also, or HCL, but most have vinegar laying around somewhere.


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> what do you guys think about using Potassium ascorbate, it release K+ and ascorbic acid into the solution, i am looking into K+ which can be mixed in same solution without solubility issue. if anyone have better option please do share.


That will work fine.
Vinegar, HCL etc also.

HCL was used for years for PMDD.


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## plantbrain

happi said:


> *
> What is the purpose of ascorbic acid and potassium sorbate?
> *
> one chemical keep the solution very very acidic and other one keeps it fresh, think of powerade for example.


I think vinegar might be better, since it removes the KH vs AA, PS is very good for anti fungal, but we often have and use Excel, and glutaraldehyde is a great biocide that we can use also. I use Excel personally.

So there are few organic acids and biocides available we already have laying around. No need to hunt for special chemicals if we have stuff already around the house.


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## happi

thanks tom, i will look into it, looks like Potassium ascorbate can be found easily but the problem is messurment, unless there is calc like WET's calc which can break down the numbers for us. 

Monoammonium Phosphate also sounds good, it will provide P and NH4, but messurment might be a problem IMO. it is also good for acidic solution, which we are trying to make.

am not expert but here i go

Monopotassium phosphate 136.086 g/mol
Monoammonium Phosphate 115.03 g mol−1

so we will add about 10% more of Monoammonium Phosphate vs Monopotassium phosphate in the solution to get same amount of P??


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## happi

happi said:


> thanks tom, i will look into it, looks like Potassium ascorbate can be found easily but the problem is messurment, unless there is calc like WET's calc which can break down the numbers for us.
> 
> Monoammonium Phosphate also sounds good, it will provide P and NH4, but messurment might be a problem IMO. it is also good for acidic solution, which we are trying to make.
> 
> am not expert but here i go
> 
> Monopotassium phosphate 136.086 g/mol
> Monoammonium Phosphate 115.03 g mol−1
> 
> so we will add about 10% more of Monoammonium Phosphate vs Monopotassium phosphate in the solution to get same amount of P??


i guess no one knows??


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## happi

*New update*

this one turned into algae city, excess nutrients could cause algae after this experiment. this time solution was mixed very well and there was no Precipitation of any kind, could be that Humic acid prevented it from happening. i wanted to try amino acid and humic acid in the solution this time, i highly doubt they triggered the algae. humic acid after being mixed in the solution leaves behind a black sand siting on bottom of the solution, am not sure what would that be. amino acid mixed very well and i was not sure how much to add, i made a educated guess and added 1 gram into the solution, which is about 1/4tsp.

this time in this test there was so much algae everywhere and plant weren't doing good at all, this time i was adding 2.68ppm of nitrate and 0.50ppm of Urea everyday per dose and that is a lot of nitrogen in the water, if you look at my first original formula, there is so much less nitrate present in the solution and plant grew like weed, also confirmed by others. my other observation is that having stable Fe is very important, EDTA isn't the best and adding extra has caused some algae issue, stick with DTPA. 

*conclusion: high amount of Nitrogen can cause serious algae and stunt growth, plant wont grow then you get algae. i hardly doubt that algae and stunt growth was caused by Amino acid or humic acid. *


*Failed experiment: 

50 gallon tank
water parameter:
Ca 30ppm 
Mg 6ppm
Kh 0
Ph 6<
co2 high as fish could handle

1000ml solution
20ml everyday dose

5 gram Urea
30 gram Ca Nitrate
20 gram Mg Nitrate
20.0 gram Miller's MicroPlex 
5 gram DTPA 10% Fe
1 gram Amino acid
1 gram Humic Acid
1 gram Ascorbic Acid 
0.5Potassium Sorbate 

dosing separate of:
1.9ppm of K+ everyday
1ppm PO4 3x week



*


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## AaronT

I agree the DTPA is way better that the EDTA iron.

I tried your macro mix of 7g urea, 10g each MgNO3 and CaNO3 and got green water after only two days. I'm trying Tobi's mix now and will report back with how that goes. I'm dosing to 1 ppm NO3 daily per his recommendations.


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## happi

AaronT said:


> I agree the DTPA is way better that the EDTA iron.
> 
> I tried your macro mix of 7g urea, 10g each MgNO3 and CaNO3 and got green water after only two days. I'm trying Tobi's mix now and will report back with how that goes. I'm dosing to 1 ppm NO3 daily per his recommendations.


Aaron

i wouldn't blame the fert for green water, because me and others haven't experienced the green water yet from this fert. other factors might be causing this issue for you. 

what is your fish load? water parameter??

if you are trying tobi's recipe, make sure not to dose extra K+

show me green water in my tank when using my recipe, ludwigia pantanal growing like weed here.


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## mrkookm

happi said:


> Aaron
> 
> i wouldn't blame the fert for green water, because me and others haven't experienced the green water yet from this fert. other factors might be causing this issue for you.
> 
> what is your fish load? water parameter??
> 
> if you are trying tobi's recipe, make sure not to dose extra K+
> 
> show me green water in my tank when using my recipe, ludwigia pantanal growing like weed here.
> 50g planted tank - YouTube


Pantanals look happy indeed  What substrate are you using and are you using tapwater?


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## mrkookm

mrkookm said:


> Pantanals look happy indeed  What substrate are you using and are you using tapwater?


Looked over your first post real quick, so let me clarify a bit. It says you use 100% RO, so this means no DI?


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## happi

mrkookm said:


> Looked over your first post real quick, so let me clarify a bit. It says you use 100% RO, so this means no DI?


yeh i used 100% RO water, no Di water. substrate was 2 year old Ada aqua soil

Gh was quite low during the experiment, later i have increased it little bit, before, i was only dosing 1tsp of GH booster during water changes which is very low Ca and Mg, K+ was always kept high.


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## mrkookm

Ok thanks and good stuff!



from my iP 5 via Tapa.


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## AaronT

I can only tell you my experience. I stopped dosing it and went back to just KNO3 for a while and it cleared up.


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## happi

AaronT said:


> I can only tell you my experience. I stopped dosing it and went back to just KNO3 for a while and it cleared up.


glad it cleared up for you, but so far you are the first person who had green water when using this fert. you did not answer some of my questions which might plant factor which caused the green water.

what are the water parameter?? 
did you least did 75% water changes for 2 days before dosing my fert??


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## VAtanks

happi, the black sand on the bottom is the result of a redox reaction. Basically you oxidized a metal in the acidic solution to the point it couldn't remain aqueous and it precipitated out. Sulfides can result in black sand precipitates.


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## happi

VAtanks said:


> happi, the black sand on the bottom is the result of a redox reaction. Basically you oxidized a metal in the acidic solution to the point it couldn't remain aqueous and it precipitated out. Sulfides can result in black sand precipitates.


are you talking about the humic acid? because this is the only one that leave behind some black sand in the solution, which i thought was normal.


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## VAtanks

C187H186O89N9S1 is the Chem formula for Humic Acid, basically when a weak acid dilutes in water only some of it will break apart into ions, strong acids completly break apart into ions sulfuric acid, hydrochloric acid are some strong examples. Basically the black sand is the sulfur giving up some electrons till it hits a -2 state and combining with some metal and precipitating out. With out calculating the total ionic formula which based on the chemical list in your post would be extensive, off the top of my head style guess I would say copper sulfide would be your black sand.

From a chemistry stand point I see why Humic acid was chosen it has a huge carbon to oxygen ratio so the carbon availability would be greater. If the goal was having a source of sulfur though its pretty low.


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## Ach1Ll3sH33L

Where do you recommend getting urea from?


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## happi

Ach1Ll3sH33L said:


> Where do you recommend getting urea from?



can be bought from ebay, very cheap.


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## happi

UPdate:

the reaction we were seeing in the solution was caused by K2so4 and CaNo3, when you mix these together they form KNO3 and leave behind all the sulphate from K2SO4 siting on the bottom of the solution. so you get no Ca at all in the solution, you do get more K+ without adding more KNO3, all the SO4 is removed which you don't want too much of it anyway. 

as you can see in the video plants were growing at 3ppm of Ca from 1tsp GH booster once a week or during water changes, after all we don't need that much Ca.


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## DaveFish

Seattle_Aquarist said:


> Hi Happi,
> 
> Plants absorb their nitrogen first from nitrates, secondly from ammonicial nitrogen sources, and finally from urea. I know that urea is inexpensive but why use a source of nitrogen that plants cannot uptake efficiently?


I thoughtt ammonicial is the easist for plants and the first one to be absorbed. Nitrates when ammonium is not present.


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## Jeff5614

DaveFish said:


> I thoughtt ammonicial is the easist for plants and the first one to be absorbed. Nitrates when ammonium is not present.


Here's a quote from Seachem's site.

"Nitrogen comes in a variety of forms (nitrate, ammoniacal, urea). While plants can use all three forms the form that is preferred varies by species. Thus nitrogen supplements derived solely from just one form (nitrates) will not be as effective as a supplement that provides all three forms."


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## happi

DaveFish said:


> I thoughtt ammonicial is the easist for plants and the first one to be absorbed. Nitrates when ammonium is not present.



Dave, Jeff have given a good answer. let me also add something to it too, plants do prefer ammonium over Nitrate because its easily taken up by them, so you are also correct. but in my study i have found that most plant react to ammonium and some did not react very well. i did not have all the plant to test, but this test showed the results on these two sp. the plant that reacted well to ammonium was ludwigia Pantanal and plant that did not react very well to ammonium was Sp. Belem, Sp. Belem reacted better to nitrate.


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## happi

no one noticed about the reaction i have mentioned, i guess even guru's weren't aware of it, they did say all these chemicals should mix well. 

more update coming soon


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## newbieplanter

I'm still lookin for the vid? Anyway when useing the GH/bakin soda booster either or am I aimin for 120-180ppm? I figured I'd ask cuz u seem knalegable about the whole ferts thing?





happi said:


> *i been working on this fertilizer for while now and it seems to work very well, ingredients are very similar to most fertilizers, but this fertilizers use combination of many different sources of chemicals to make it even work better. for example: you are not adding nitrate through KNO3 only, but in this ferts you are adding it through urea, Ca nitrate, Mg nitrate etc. stems plants responded to this very well and you will notice the difference when you dose this fert. according the plant response and those who tested it, this fert had faster growth than the EI dosing.
> 
> Original formula tested with results
> 
> 1000ml solution
> Urea (7 gram)
> calcium nitrate (10 gram)
> Magnesium nitrate (10 gram)
> CSM+B (20 gram)
> DTPA 11% (5 gram)
> [STRIKE]K2SO4 (30 Gram)[/STRIKE] (do not add this to solution due to solubility issue, dose separate as mentioned)
> Ascorbic Acid (1g)
> Potassium Sorbate (0.5g)
> MnSO4 (1 gram) Optional, last time i added it to the solution, it seems to cause no issue, Mn is very important along with Fe.
> 
> Dosing: 20ml everyday for 50g high tech tank, reduce the dosage if you have low tech tank. at the water changes you should add 20ppm of K+ through K2SO4, you can also use GH booster to achieve the same, i highly recommend using GH booster. you notice that i did not say anything about the Phosphate dosing, that is because i did not want to mix it with this solution, you can make separate solution or dose EI style dry, you should dose 1ppm of PO4 3x week. The best time to dose this ferts is when the lights are already on for the first hour or so. people with higher Ph 7> should be careful when dosing this ferts, as you can see that it contain urea which could cause problem for those with higher PH.
> 
> 
> Water Changes: I changed 50% water every 2 weeks while dosing this ferts with no problem, but you can still do you 50% water change weekly if you like that routine. i also use 100% RO water in my tank, i do not use any KH buffering.
> my water parameter:
> 100% RO Water
> KH 0
> Gh 2-3
> PH 6<
> water temp 78F
> 
> 
> 
> MOST IMPORTANT NOTE: * *Make sure your co2 levels are good, if you forget to dose Phosphate and K+ then you might see no difference in plant growth and it will be complete fail. if you decide to use K2SO4 instead of Gh booster, i recommend that you add Ca (about 20-30ppm) and Mg (6-8ppm) through Mg/Ca sulfates.*
> 
> *storing the solution: i recommend that you keep it cool and keep it in the dark (fridge is highly recommended).
> *
> 
> 
> *Reason for K2so4 to react when used in the solution:
> 
> the reaction we were seeing in the solution was caused by K2so4 and CaNo3, when you mix these together they form KNO3 and leave behind all the sulphate from K2SO4 siting on the bottom of the solution. so you get no Ca at all in the solution, you do get more K+ without adding more KNO3, all the SO4 is removed which you don't want too much of it anyway.
> 
> as you can see in the video plants were growing at 3ppm of Ca from 1tsp GH booster once a week or during water changes, after all we don't need that much Ca.*


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## happi

*newbieplanter*

this is here:





i wont recommend using this fert if you have no experience or are beginner, there is water parameter involve, which require acidic low PH water in order for this fert to work, otherwise you kill your fish. 

GH/KH, the KH can be 0 and no need to mess with it, its better to have it 0, GH can be 50-60ppm, Calcium can be low as 3-5ppm, Magnesium can be 5-10ppm.


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## xandro007

So what is the ultimate solution .and the PO4 also in the solution and how many ppm K2SO4 I need . I am indeed a beginner and really want to use this formula but I find it rather difficult to understand


Verzonden vanaf mijn iPad met Tapatalk


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## gunnerthesnowman

So for the GH Booster at water changes , I would be using 16 tablespoon for a 160 gallon tank to give me my 20ppm of K ???




happi said:


> *i been working on this fertilizer for while now and it seems to work very well, ingredients are very similar to most fertilizers, but this fertilizers use combination of many different sources of chemicals to make it even work better. for example: you are not adding nitrate through KNO3 only, but in this ferts you are adding it through urea, Ca nitrate, Mg nitrate etc. stems plants responded to this very well and you will notice the difference when you dose this fert. according the plant response and those who tested it, this fert had faster growth than the EI dosing.
> 
> Original formula tested with results
> 
> 1000ml solution
> Urea (7 gram)
> calcium nitrate (10 gram)
> Magnesium nitrate (10 gram)
> CSM+B (20 gram)
> DTPA 11% (5 gram)
> [STRIKE]K2SO4 (30 Gram)[/STRIKE] (do not add this to solution due to solubility issue, dose separate as mentioned)
> Ascorbic Acid (1g)
> Potassium Sorbate (0.5g)
> MnSO4 (1 gram) Optional, last time i added it to the solution, it seems to cause no issue, Mn is very important along with Fe.
> 
> Dosing: 20ml everyday for 50g high tech tank, reduce the dosage if you have low tech tank. at the water changes you should add 20ppm of K+ through K2SO4, you can also use GH booster to achieve the same, i highly recommend using GH booster. you notice that i did not say anything about the Phosphate dosing, that is because i did not want to mix it with this solution, you can make separate solution or dose EI style dry, you should dose 1ppm of PO4 3x week. The best time to dose this ferts is when the lights are already on for the first hour or so. people with higher Ph 7> should be careful when dosing this ferts, as you can see that it contain urea which could cause problem for those with higher PH.
> 
> 
> Water Changes: I changed 50% water every 2 weeks while dosing this ferts with no problem, but you can still do you 50% water change weekly if you like that routine. i also use 100% RO water in my tank, i do not use any KH buffering.
> my water parameter:
> 100% RO Water
> KH 0
> Gh 2-3
> PH 6<
> water temp 78F
> 
> 
> 
> MOST IMPORTANT NOTE: * *Make sure your co2 levels are good, if you forget to dose Phosphate and K+ then you might see no difference in plant growth and it will be complete fail. if you decide to use K2SO4 instead of Gh booster, i recommend that you add Ca (about 20-30ppm) and Mg (6-8ppm) through Mg/Ca sulfates.*
> 
> *storing the solution: i recommend that you keep it cool and keep it in the dark (fridge is highly recommended).
> *
> 
> 
> *Reason for K2so4 to react when used in the solution:
> 
> the reaction we were seeing in the solution was caused by K2so4 and CaNo3, when you mix these together they form KNO3 and leave behind all the sulphate from K2SO4 siting on the bottom of the solution. so you get no Ca at all in the solution, you do get more K+ without adding more KNO3, all the SO4 is removed which you don't want too much of it anyway.
> 
> as you can see in the video plants were growing at 3ppm of Ca from 1tsp GH booster once a week or during water changes, after all we don't need that much Ca.*


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## Zorfox

gunnerthesnowman said:


> So for the GH Booster at water changes , I would be using 16 tablespoon for a 160 gallon tank to give me my 20ppm of K ???


It depends on the GH booster you're using. Using most GH boosters made by people who sell aquatic fertilizer then yes, 16 teaspoons *NOT* tablespoons. Seachem Equilibrium, 13 teaspoons.


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## DennisSingh

happi said:


> Aaron
> 
> i wouldn't blame the fert for green water, because me and others haven't experienced the green water yet from this fert. other factors might be causing this issue for you.
> 
> what is your fish load? water parameter??
> 
> if you are trying tobi's recipe, make sure not to dose extra K+
> 
> show me green water in my tank when using my recipe, ludwigia pantanal growing like weed here.
> 50g planted tank - YouTube


I would blame the gw from the ferts. He might have different plants with different speeds of growth that don't absorb nutrients as fast as Pantanal or plant mass of. We see all these different tanks where different strategies work and then claimed to be proof as if the plants used doesn't matter.....


----------

