# suspect leak in CO2 system - how to find it?



## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Hello all -

I am starting to really think that I have a leak in my CO2 setup, and I want to try and identify/locate the leak asap if one exists. Doing the soapy water thing seems easy enough, but I want to make sure I don't screw up the system first.

I read of people spraying/misting soapy water on the regular - is this safe for the guages, etc? Also, it seems like a bad idea to get the solenoid wet, and yet the solenoid has to be in the open position and thus plugged in to do the test! Are we talking about spraying tiny amounts here and there, or giving the whole thing a good dousing???

As for the connections on either side of the check valve, etc. it seems reasonable to just dunk those in a bit of water and just watch. I think I might also replace all the CO2 tubing just to make sure. 

Any other tips? What, exactly, is the technique? thanks


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## ShrimpMan (Apr 7, 2009)

just grab a spray bottle (like windex) and spray soapy water around connections. 
if it bubbles... you found your culprit.
Even windex itself will do just fine if you don't want to make a soapy solution.


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## maknwar (Aug 10, 2008)

I take a cup, put a bunch of dawn liquid soap in it and put some water into the cup making sure the soap gets foamy. I just use my fingers to skim off the foam, and put it onto the regulator parts. stare at it and find your leak.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

A bottle of "bubble fun" in toy section of any store.
And complete leak check link below


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## oldpunk78 (Nov 1, 2008)

Why do you think you have a leak?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I think I have a leak because I have a 54g tank and to get the drop checkers into the greenish yellow I go through a tank in about 5 weeks. That's with fairly meager surface agitation, a ph controller, and a timer on the solenoid. Ever since I got this setup I've noticed that even if the reactor appears to be working perfectly I have to run 7-8 bps to get the drop checkers to change, and even then it takes hours for them to green up (sometimes a whole day).

I just spend 30 minutes spaying little bits of soapy water around the regulator, the check valve and anywhere I could find where it might be leaking. No apparent leak!

When there is a small leak, does the soap usually foam up a bit in an obvious way? I stared at it all for a while but no apparent activity or bubbles! I am thinking about just tightening everything I can find up and replacing the tubing.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

yah that is weird. I am not surprised that the bubble count is at 7/sec. but your tank should not be emptying in 5 weeks, it should last 5 months more like. did you test every single leak point? bubble counter, fittings, valves, solenoid seams, regulator outlets, inlet stem, and cylinder connection?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I've tried to test all of those things using a spray bottle filled with a bit of dishsoap and lots of water. When I mist around the CO2 setup the mist gets a tiny bit sudsy, so I'm assuming that there's enough soap in the mix so that I will be able to see a bit of foam/bubbles if I identify a leak.

I immersed the part of the tubing where the inline check valve is into a mug full of water, so I'm pretty sure there's no leak there. I checked all of the easily visible connections and nothing. The main connector where the regulator fits on to the tank is tricky to test because there's that big nut thing that you tighten down, so you can't actually see the connection but I gave it my best shot. I thought I saw some bubbles where the bubble counter fit onto the solenoid but I couldn't reproduce that.

I didn't understand what you meant by 'solenoid seams' - I checked around the connections to the solenoid, and they looked ok to me. I did have a solenoid failure and it was serviced so many there's a problem after all.

It sounds like I have a leak, ya? Any other tips on finding it?  thanks!

So far, no dice.


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

I have been using this product with great result detecting leak. About five bucks at Home Depot.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

nifty!


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## maxima308 (Mar 24, 2010)

Save your money and just spray some household glass cleaner like Windex were you suspect leaks.

Sent from my Nexus S 4G


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## Jim Miller (Dec 24, 2002)

I use the HD stuff. It is nice and viscous and doesn't run off like the suggested alternatives. Makes finding the hard ones much easier. $5 is an issue??

Jim


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

> $5 is an issue??


:biggrin:


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## dmxsoulja3 (Dec 22, 2010)

Like others have mentioned and I can atest to as I recently made a thread with the same issue, I took some glass cleaner and shook it up to get it as foamy as possible, put a paper towel over the electrical part of the solenoid and turned my working pressure up a little bit, a few sprays later, bubbles at a joint that was "glued" by the manf. of the regulator that I hadn't even touched, some teflon tape and two wrenches and I was good to go.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

hah. glue. that's some manufacturer you got there....


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm gonna try again today. But how to you visualize that main connection where the regulator meets the CO2 bottle? It's covered by that big nut!


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## dmxsoulja3 (Dec 22, 2010)

Btimmer92, yeah every connection on the regulator used it, its like a thread locking glue, obviously not good enough!

If the leak is coming from that big nut Dave-H, if you spray it enough and the PSI that is on that connection, you are bound to find it bubbling, even the smallest leak at 50+psi will bubble, considering the tank is probably at 800psi, I am betting it will easily bubble right there, not to mention for that connection I stuck it in the water since it is away from the regulator and solenoid.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

This morning I went and had my CO2 tank refilled, and had a talk with the guy who owns the business. They are refilling systems all day and he seemed to know what he was doing.

He told me that permaseals work great IF they are in perfect condition and 100% intact. But, that isn't always the case because people overtighten the connections, which stresses the rubber gasket and can lead to microleaks that are hard to find but slowly drain the tank. 

Following advice from this forum, I really cranked that sucker tight as hard as I could 

They gave me a couple of little nylon washers that they said seemed to have the best results and are so inexpensive that if they aren't in perfect condition they just cost a few cents to replace. Here they are:










I also picked up some of that leak detector. Cool stuff! Clearly it's just more soap, right? But the dauber that comes with it is pretty handy (it's just like a PVC cement dauber but a little smaller and longer). For 4 bucks, I'm pretty impressed. I simulated a tiny leak by loosening a tubing connection very slightly and when I put a tiny bit of this soapy solution on nothing happened for a few seconds, then they were a slow patch of foam that was plainly obvious.

I checked all the connections and everything looks OK. We'll see how long it goes this time


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

good luck!


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## herns (May 6, 2008)

Dave-H said:


> I also picked up some of that leak detector. Cool stuff! Clearly it's just more soap, right? But the dauber that comes with it is pretty handy (it's just like a PVC cement dauber but a little smaller and longer). For 4 bucks, I'm pretty impressed.



Another one good review for Better Bubble Leak locator folks! roud:

I find the solution of this product a little more "sticky" than Windex or other sprays. Yeah, you're right the dauber is very useful. The fluid can easily be wipeout clean by a wet towel tissue. Great product.


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## bubbleboy (Jul 18, 2011)

I can not find anywhere in the post where you mentioned how big your co2 tank is. If it is really small, and you can not find a leak, that is why it is only lasting 5 weeks.. In that case, you need a bigger co2 tank


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Today I head back to get the tank refilled, since it's already getting close to empty. That makes this round exactly 4 weeks before the tank gets down to <500psi.

Very odd. I am replacing my entire reactor setup and tubing in hopes of eliminating some kind of tiny or difficult to find leak. I have spent so much time looking for leaks on the tank/reg/etc that I can't bring myself to do it again.

Very frustrating!


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

what setup do you use?
did you check to see if the regulator holds pressure after the solenoid off, the co2 tanks shut?
or is there any weird behavior of the bubble rate when adjusting the needle valve, or bubble rate don't hold steady, if you play around the system, the hose.

my 5 LB tank still have 1/4 of co2 after 2 month, serving both the fish tank and countless system testing.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

I would submerge the entire setup with tank up to the solenoid. I'd spray copious amounts of fluid on everything as well. 

A pic of your setup might help.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I just had the tank refilled and we did a nice, long leak test in their dunk tank. With 400psi in the tank, not a single bubble visible after 20 minutes. So, I'm pretty sure it's not the tank. 

The reactor/tubing was replaced and stuck into the bathtub (with the gas on) so no apparent leaks there.

That leaves the regulator, bubble counter, solenoid, etc. I've sprayed so much soap on it that I can't imagine any point in doing it again. 

I bought the system from GLA.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

fill the regulator, then solenoid off, co2 tank shut.
leave it for 24 hours see if the pressure hold.

Sometimes, the leak is not detectable, example, a small hole in the gauge pressure coil/tube. you can't use the bubble fluid to detect it, only a pressure hold test works.


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## VeeSe (Apr 16, 2011)

Bettatail said:


> fill the regulator, then solenoid off, co2 tank shut.
> leave it for 24 hours see if the pressure hold.
> 
> Sometimes, the leak is not detectable, example, a small hole in the gauge pressure coil/tube. you can't use the bubble fluid to detect it, only a pressure hold test works.


Do this test like bettatail says. If it works, then you know that everything up to the solenoid is leak free.


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

Did I miss it? what size tank is this. If it is 5 lbs, I actually believe you might not be far off from accurate. 7-8 bps is kinda a lot. 

I know a lot of people SAY that they should get 5 months out of a setup, but having experienced a dozen or so of them, I rarely have gotten that much running more than a few bps.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

OverStocked said:


> Did I miss it? what size tank is this. If it is 5 lbs, I actually believe you might not be far off from accurate. 7-8 bps is kinda a lot.
> 
> I know a lot of people SAY that they should get 5 months out of a setup, but having experienced a dozen or so of them, I rarely have gotten that much running more than a few bps.


+1, that is probabaly also the reason the tank run empty so fast, I only set my bubble rate at 2-3.bubble per second, and day light only.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Well, I have suspected some problem with the system for a while. It's a 10# and it lasts about 4 weeks usually. If I put the bubble count below about 7 BPS, the CO2 will take days to reach a good level (literally). I originally suspected a problem with the reactor, but it's been leak tested and finally replaced with an AM1000. The tubing was replaced, too.

So, something is causing me to have such a high bubble count but I can't figure out what it is. With 7 or 8 BPS I can reach a good level of CO2 overnight, but I can't turn off the CO2 over night or it won't get back up for another day or so. 

Very frustrating. At this point I'm just trying to sort out where the problem is by eliminating factors.


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## btimmer92 (Mar 12, 2011)

if you have a high bubble count and you are not getting enough co2 into the water, there may be a leak after the liquid line in the bubble counter. Try the cap of the bubble counter where it meets the plastic and turn it as tight as you can by hand. (I am guessing it is a jbj?)


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Man I have soaped up that particular spot so many times!
Certainly it looks like teh leak is after the bubble counter, yea. Then again, I can look into the reactor and see the bubbles coming out of the output tube and the count is the same! Very odd  

I will continue replacing parts and tightening things until this thing behaves! The main clue that I can't make sense of is: why does my reactor take at least 12 and usually 24 hours at 7-8 BPS to bring a 54g tank to have yellow/green drop checkers? That's with just a tiny ripple on the surface.


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## binders (Mar 22, 2009)

Have you had any luck finding a leak? I am dealing with something similar and so am wondering if you have been successfull. Hope so!


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

No luck so far. I completely replaced the entire setup from the regulator onward and had the tank dunk tested.

So, with a brand new reactor, new tubing, and a leak-free tank the issue must be somewhere in the regulator but I still can't find it.

With an AM 1000 reactor running at 4 BPS it took 20 hours to bring the ph of the tank from 6.4 to 5.8 and make the drop checkers green.


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## Bettatail (Feb 12, 2009)

fill the regulator, then shut off the solenoid and co2 tank, record the gauge reading and keep it like this for 24 hours or longer, see if pressure hold.

check my leak test link in the signature.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Bettatail said:


> fill the regulator, then shut off the solenoid and co2 tank, record the gauge reading and keep it like this for 24 hours or longer, see if pressure hold.
> 
> check my leak test link in the signature.


Sorry bettatail, I forgot to mention that I already went for that test. With the tank and solenoid closed the CO2 pressure inside the reg held steady (around 900 psi in the tank and 15 psi working) for about 40 hours before turned it back on.

And sure enough, an algae explosion happened right afterwards


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Still struggling with this one 

So far I think I've eliminated the tank and the reactor since both are fairly easy to submerse and check for leaks. The regulator holds pressure when the tank and solenoid are shut, which is encouraging but since this leak happens so slowly (if there is one!) it's not 100% conclusive.

My suspicion continues to be that there is a leak after the solenoid somewhere. To bring my tank from ph 6.4 to 5.8 shouldn't take 30 hours  That's on a 54g bowfront corner with moderate surface agitation. 

I have experimented with turning the powerhead off so that the surface has virtually no agitation at all. The effect was that it still took a day to get the drop checker into the yellowish green, but once I reached that level the controller turned off quite a bit as the CO2 didn't offgas much.

I can plainly see bubbling at around 5BPS in the bubble counter. And in the reactor, I see a slower rate, but the bubbles look bigger, too, and the pressure is a bit higher since the reactor is lower. So, I wouldn't expect those bubbles to necessarily appear the same size/rate. 



Here's video of the bubble counter in action.



And here's video of the AM1000 in action.

When I replaced the tubing, the CO2 tubing that I got from GLA somehow seemed a little stiff and dry, but maybe it was just my imagination. Still, I am considering changing the CO2 tubing one more time just to eliminate that factor.

The drop checker seemed intact, although it was a bit greenish.


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## Ashok (Dec 11, 2006)

Could the drop checker solution itself be a suspect? I wonder if you can get a bad batch/old batch of it that would not indicate the ph correctly.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

You know, that's actually an interesting thought. I got a bottle of 4dkh from GLA about 10 months ago, and have been blending it with b. blue ph indicator from the lfs. Seems to work fine, but I'm not 100% sure.

But, the drop checkers correlate to the activity in the tank. When the dc's start turning yellowish green, plants start pearling.


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## fresh.salty (Jul 2, 2010)

With a reactor a leak past the high pressure parts of the system will be minimal. In other words anything past the regulator/solenoid since there isn't much reason for the CO2 to "want" to escape, there's no back pressure from that point on. Not saying you can't have a leak there but I doubt it would make much difference in your usage.

I run dual BC's and reactors and my 10# has been lasting a bit more than 2 months. I gave up DC's a while ago, they bring me nothing but stress. lol


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

fresh.salty said:


> With a reactor a leak past the high pressure parts of the system will be minimal. In other words anything past the regulator/solenoid since there isn't much reason for the CO2 to "want" to escape, there's no back pressure from that point on. Not saying you can't have a leak there but I doubt it would make much difference in your usage.
> 
> I run dual BC's and reactors and my 10# has been lasting a bit more than 2 months. I gave up DC's a while ago, they bring me nothing but stress. lol


How big is your tank??


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Ok, I'm stumped. It's taken 30+ hours for the system to bring the ph from 6.5 to 5.8 

What is it about my tank that it won't hold any CO2??


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## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

in the morning my ph is 6 and by the end of the day it's 5.0 using my atomizer.


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## Craigthor (Sep 9, 2007)

When was the last time the PH probe was calibrated, most manufacturers recommend fairly regular calibration. Also being as you have a low PH I would recommend a 2 point calibration using a ph 4 and ph 7 solution. I know I jsut started playing with my controller and the probe is slightly off from my calibrated ph/ tds pen that has had a 2 point calibration done on it. 

Also a fresh batch of 4 DKh and indicator would be a good idea, just to eliminate all places of something being off as it sounds like you have done everything outside the system a few times.

Craig


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## Rockhoe14er (Jan 19, 2011)

Craigthor said:


> When was the last time the PH probe was calibrated, most manufacturers recommend fairly regular calibration. Also being as you have a low PH I would recommend a 2 point calibration using a ph 4 and ph 7 solution. I know I jsut started playing with my controller and the probe is slightly off from my calibrated ph/ tds pen that has had a 2 point calibration done on it.
> 
> Also a fresh batch of 4 DKh and indicator would be a good idea, just to eliminate all places of something being off as it sounds like you have done everything outside the system a few times.
> 
> Craig


 Dave calibrates his pH probe one every couple of weeks. I've seen his set up and i'm just as stumped as he is where the leak is. I hope you find it


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## DarkCobra (Jun 22, 2004)

I've got a similar situation. My 20lb. CO2 cylinder lasts only 2 months on a 46G. The regulator does not maintain pressure after closing the tank and solenoid; it drops to zero in 30 minutes or so. I've repeatedly sprayed every connection with soapy water and cannot find the leak.

Can I immerse the entire tank and assembly, up to the solenoid but minus the detachable solenoid core, in the bathtub; or will that ruin the regulator?


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Yea my probe is calibrated and correlates to the drop/strip checks, so I'm fairly confident it's working. My system is still running at 5.8, and the setpoint for the controller usually comes right as it hits 5.7. It's been running continuously 24/7 for almost 3 days!


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

Ok, the ph finally got to 5,8 and the controller shut it off. I was actually standing right there when it happened 

So, that's several days to get the ph down to where I want it and that's with a pretty fast bubble count as seen in the video I posted. I don't know if it's a leak or what but as usual I need to have some kind of answer so I'm pushing on!

It's been suspected that I have too much agitation, so I took a quick video of the water surface, as seen from below. Note that in this video you can only see the right half of the tank, where the output is. So, you can assume that the left side of the tank surface is glassy and calm. But, maybe my interpretation of 'low agitation' isn't in line with everyone else's, so here's a few second of video.

Another factor that's killing me is that the temperature is so high in the tank. It runs about 84 in the summer, and without aircon or a chiller there's not much I can do. Fans are already going! With such a high temp, and being at 5280 foot elevation I am concerned about O2 so I don't want to turn the agitation completely off.

So, anyone care to opine? Seeing that video, would you consider my surface to have slight agitation, as recommended?


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## OverStocked (May 26, 2007)

That isn't much surface agitation. But another factor to think about is based on what appears to be high flow, the even "glassy" surface is turning over a lot. This isn't bad, but it is a factor. 

Unfortunately, I think there is a fair chance that your particular tank is just burning through a lot of co2... 

Did you ever replace all of the tubing? I've had a pinhole leak in a hose before. 

At 7 bps I don't think I would expect a 10# tank to last all that long. People SAY theirs lasts a long time, but all of my friends seem to refill about twice as often as they SAY.... not sure what it is about this that makes people say this, but seems to be true.


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## HypnoticAquatic (Feb 17, 2010)

that doesnt seem that fast of a bubble rate to me my 40b is going faster than that an my 20lb last close to a year.


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

I found it I found it!!

After going through a 10# tank in 2 weeks, I got desperate and went through the sequence in bettatails post again.

This time it was pretty obvious. It went like this:

1) With the tank-to-regulator valve closed and the regulator value turned counter clockwise (closed) the regulator was able to hold about 850 psi for 24 hours with no issue.

2) Next step, I shut the solenoid and the needle value and opened up the regulator valve so that the second gauge indicated my every day working pressure, about 20psi. I opened the tank-to-regulator valve again just to make sure there was plenty of pressure, then closed it again.

Well what do you know, both gauges read zero in 30 minutes. I soap tested the think like an idiot, but couldn't find any issues. 

To be honest, I am just so happy that there was a leak cause I was starting to think my tank was haunted!


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## Dave-H (Jul 29, 2010)

hi everyone -

I haven't posted in a while, but I thought that I would give an update that might help newbies like myself, who aren't sure if they have a leak or if they are crazy!

When this thread started, I was going through a 10# CO2 tank in 5 weeks on a 54 gallon tank.

As I write this, my 10# CO2 tank has been running for around 8 months and the needle hasn't even dropped yet!

So, if you are like I was last year and wondering if you have leak - follow your intuition. A CO2 tank should last a while unless you are really cranking it or have a massive tank.

- Dave


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