# Losing battle with BGA... third time



## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Hi everyone, I could really use some help. I've torn down this 15 gallon tank and restarted it 3 times over the last year. Each time ends with a losing battle with BGA. I thought this time for sure I was doing it right, but BGA has shown up AGAIN! Here are the details:

Equipment and Flora/Fauna:

24" x 12.5" x 12.5" black rim aquarium
EcoComplete substrate with O+ tabs
Eheim Ecco 2232 filter
Finnex Planted+ 24" light
Hydor Inline Heater
Pressuring paintball CO2 with GLA atomic inline reactor
 Rotala Green, Rotala H ra aka Gia Lai, Rotala Rotundifolia, Bacopa Monnieri/Caroliana, Rotala Magenta, Ludwigia red, some Ludwigia brevipes and/or Ludwigia Arcuata, Alternanthera Reineckii
6 Cardinal tetra, 2 White Cloud Mountain minnows, 3 habrosus corydoras, 1 angel ram, 1 calico pleco, 1 really big ramshorn snail

Methods:

Torn down, cleaned the sh*t out of tank, tubes, and all, and re-built on Dec 31. Cleaned filter but used treated water to save the bacteria. Used new EcoComplete. Made a sliding glass top for the lid.
Feed the fish every other day. Oddly, everyone likes wafers... I also drop in a pinch of a mix of stuff from Ken's Fish. The WCM and cardinals like it, but they also eat the wafers pretty good, too.
Started EI dosing on Jan 3.
Lights on for 8 hours (4pm-12am). It gets indirect daylight during the day. Even though it's minimal, the plants all lean toward it until the light switches on. Light is sitting directly on edges of tank.
Pressurized CO2, 3 bps 30 mins before lights on until 30 mins before lights off.
EI Dosing with 50% weekly water change on Sundays. I made 100 mL of macro and micro solution just to see how things go in case I need to make any adjustments.
This is how I mixed it:

100 mL gives 20 5-mL doses
In macro bottle with 100 mL of distilled water:
1/8 tsp KNO3 * 20 = 2.5 tsp 
1/32 tsp KH2PO4 * 20 = 0.625 tsp or 5/8 tsp
In micro bottle with 100 mL of distilled water and ~2mL of Excel:
1/32 tsp CSM+B * 20 = 0.625 tsp or 5/8 tsp


On Jan 3, CO2 bps was ~1.5 bps, but on Jan 5, I noticed the AR seemed to be struggling so I increased bps to 3. That's when the 7-Up look appeared; after searching in this forum for a second, I learned that that's a common problem with the GLA inline reactor. I also turned the spray bar up toward the top of the water because there was a film developing on the surface. All the plants sway a little in the current so I figured the water movement wasn't affected that much.

On Jan 10, everything seemed to be going great, no signs of algae. 50% water change and trimmed the plants that were reaching the top of the water. Replanted the trimmings.

Since the 10th, I haven't had time to sit down and look really closely at my tank until tonight. And, that's when I noticed the BGA (mostly in back left corner) and diatoms! I don't want to lose the battle this time, so I busted out my (uncalibrated) API test kit. (I wish I had time to calibrate it, but I work full time and go to school full time and serve in the military... and have 4 dogs and 5 cats... ugh.) Here are the results:



pH: 6.8
NH3/NH4: 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 80+ ppm (yikes!)
KH: 6 drops; 6 dKH; 107.4 ppm
GH: 9 drops; 9 dGH; 161.1 ppm
Phosphate: 2-5 ppm



Tap water
pH: 7.2
NH3/NH4: 0-0.25 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 0 ppm
GH: 6 drops
KH: 4 drops
Phosphate: 0-0.25 ppm


Tomorrow is 50% water change day, and I'll also clean the filter and change the reactor to an Ista Turbo because I don't like the 7-Up look. Here are some pics so you can see for yourselves. I mostly just threw everything in so I can learn how to make plants grow and see what works.

Any help you guys can provide would be GREATLY appreciated!!!! I refuse to tear down this tank a FOURTH time and admit defeat.

Full tank shot on Fri Jan 1:









Full tank shot on Fri Jan 15:









Bacopa on the right side of the tank:


















AR in the middle of the tank:
(bottom of leaves are red)









(tops are yellow and older leaves have dark edges)









Rotalas... I've never had success with any rotalas:




































BGA is on the lower leaves of this plant mostly


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## Immortal1 (Feb 18, 2015)

Erythromycin has worked for me in the past. Seems after you defeat it once it does not seem to come back. Look in algae section for threads on how to dose.


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Since the NO3 and PO4 are climbing quite a bit with the EI and fish food, I will suggest you cut your dosing down. 
Use only half as much macros and the NO3 will probably only climb about half (40ppm) through the week. Even this is too high, but see if that happens. (It would be a good idea to callibrate the test kit. I have seen posts from some people that show the NO3 kit reports way high. Your NO3 might be half or 1/4 of what it is reporting.) But lets assume it is correct, for now. If you can adjust the dosing so that ferts + fish food make the NO3 go from 10ppm to 20ppm through the week, this is good. Cut the PO4 the same %. 1-2ppm is probably about right for PO4. 
This might mean the plants will need a bit more potassium. Unfortunately there is no test kit at the hobby level for potassium. I simply dose K2SO4 instead of KNO3 when the tank does not need more nitrogen, but does need potassium. 

Use only 1/4 as much micros. I have been seeing some posts by a friend who is finding that CSM+B is a rather rich source of micros, and some of what you are seeing might be due to toxicity from any of several metals that the plants need, but in smaller doses than are currently in the tank. The plants continue to take in the metals, over and above what they need, and this slows their growth. Also, fish food generally has a reasonable amount of most micros. Just watch the iron.

Here is a way to test the flow in different parts of the tank:
Tie several bits of thread to a stick (a chopstick is about right for this small tank), perhaps an inch or so apart. Leave a couple of inches hanging. 
Then stick this into the tank in several places, and see what the threads do. They ought to wave around. If the flow is too low the threads will barely move. 

I am suspicious about that filter. I see the site suggests you are getting 132gph from it, but I have found that is never right. Plus you have a heater in line. This will slow the flow. 
If you can do the 'thread on a stick' test, and find some dead spots you might get a small power head or circulation pump to help out. 

You sound like you have a lot going on, between pets, school and the military, plus this tank to worry about. Good luck. 

Thank you for your service.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Here's what I would do.

Move the pump outlet to the right of tank (same side as inlet), have it at the top of the tank like you do now, but point it towards the other side of the tank. That should give the best flow through the tank. Follow @Diana' advise above regarding flow testing.

Cut the photo-period back to something like 6 hours. Once things are better established, then you can slowly bump the photo-period back up. Moving the photo-period more inline with the ambient light would help, but otherwise, covering the tank during light off would help also. Stop that ambient light. Plants won't grow fast in ambient light, but algae will do fine.

When you do a water change, the water change water has very little dissolved CO2. Doing a 50% water change will reduce dissolved CO2 in the water column by some margin which creates CO2 fluctuations. Best would be to have another CO2 line running to a container that you can use to increased dissolved CO2 in the water change water. Otherwise, use the power of dissolution to your favor, and find some way to slow down the water change process.

Remove all of the O+ tabs. You have more then enough nutrients in the water column without the need for these bloody things. Once done, do a water change. 

Cut trace dosing by making a new solution mix with only 1/8th teaspoon of CSM+B, same dosing regime. If you suspect Fe deficiency, use a DTPA Fe source to dose, do not increase trace dosing. You're getting some trace elements from the fish food, plus tap water.

Also cut back NO3 dosing. In a new solution mix, use 1 and 1/2 teaspoons KNO3 with the same dosing regime. I prefer elevated levels of PO4, and yours looks about in the right range. I would also supplement with 1/2 teaspoon of K2SO4.

The maximum accumulated concentration of NO3 with strict full EI dosing + water changes, assuming no plant uptake, and no contribution from fish+food equals 45 ppm NO3. So it's probably safe to assume your test kit is reading high. In the solution I mentioned just above, the dosing of NO3 will be 4 ppm, which will bring the accumulated concentration of NO3 to between 12-24 ppm.

Full EI dosing is for a tank chock full of plants. Yours currently only has a few juveniles.

If you're reluctant to pull all of the O+ tabs out, I would reduce dosing to once per week with the solutions I mentioned above. Given your plant mass, there'll be plenty of nutrients from fish+food+tap+O tabs. Once a week dosing will help to supplement. Dose the macros after water change, and trace elements two days after that.

Slowly remove the algae. Be careful not to remove a significant portion of old plant growth, as doing so also removes a large portion of stored nutrients.


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## Alicia (Nov 8, 2011)

Immortal1 said:


> Erythromycin has worked for me in the past. Seems after you defeat it once it does not seem to come back. Look in algae section for threads on how to dose.



I just came here to thank everyone who recommended Erythromycin for this. I've battled this algae for months and it would grow back almost overnight carpeting everything. I was very apprehensive about using an antibiotic since I've lost fish in the past treating Ick but I was desperate. When it was explained to me that this type is actually a bacteria the antibiotic made sense.


I dosed carefully deducting for the substrate and huge wood thing I have in there, I dosed for 50 gallons in a 55 gallon tank. After 48 hours I did a 40% water change and dosed again which made me very nervous but I could see the stuff losing it's color. After another 24 hours I did a 25% water change and the tank looks great, didn't lose a single fish or snail.


You can see the original post I made and the answers with links on how to do this. I think I posted about 2 weeks ago.


Good luck!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Erythromycin will indeed kill BGA. 
But if the conditions that encouraged it are not altered it can come back.


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## The Coffee (Oct 12, 2013)

Diana said:


> Erythromycin will indeed kill BGA.
> But if the conditions that encouraged it are not altered it can come back.



+1 

You need to find out what's causing it in the first place.

EI dosing is good and everything but the standard levels aren't right for every tank. In this case you should look at your PO4 to get a ratio that is more ideal for your setup. It could be anywhere from 10:1 to 3:1 but probably more towards 5:1 to as low as 10:1.

The above is especially true if you have O+ tabs. These will provide a lot of phosphate through the roots of your plants, meaning demands for phosphate from the water column will be somewhat lower. This means more is available to BGA. Not only that but they do release phosphate into the water, since they have Ammonium Phosphate.

Every time I've had BGA it was due to high phosphate instead of "low" nitrate, like some people say is the most common cause. It was just that the nitrate was low relative to the phosphate. I'm not repeating that BS you always hear from people who claim that any phosphate is bad and that it causes algae. I'm just saying that decreasing phosphate a bit (not too much) will help get a better balance between the two.


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## MtAnimals (May 17, 2015)

The Coffee said:


> +1
> 
> 
> The above is especially true if you have O+ tabs. These will provide a lot of phosphate through the roots of your plants, meaning demands for phosphate from the water column will be somewhat lower. This means more is available to BGA. Not only that but they do release phosphate into the water, since they have Ammonium Phosphate.
> ...



that makes sense...I had bga show up after using O+ caps.I tried fighting it with "blue-exit" and increasing air,but it just came right back.Melafix seemed to help too,killed off some of it,but again it came right back.

Erythromycin seems to have killed it completely off this time,though I did get an ammonia spike from all the dead BGA.

I used a full 5 day treatment of E with a 50% w/c afterwards,and finally about day 7 and 8 the last traces of it are gone.

I used Maracyn,the packets are convenient though it is $$.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Well, I'll be sure to not use O+ tabs anymore then. I'm so tired of fighting BGA! I have some stuff called Blue Green Slime Remover that I heard works great at getting rid of BGA without the rest of killing off the beneficial bacteria like Erythromycin. I might have to give that a shot if it gets worse than it is now.

I just got home from work and am about to start testing the water flow throughout the tank before I do a 50% water change. I might do 75% since nitrates and phosphate are really high. Would that help or hurt or makes no difference? I'm also gonna trim and take out all the plants that have BGA. There's not much I can do about the CO2 level in the water change water due to time constraints except try to add water more slowly. After all that is done I'll remix my ferts solutions as recommended and see how things go for a week. 

Thank you all so much for your input! I'll most likely update this post with the flow results later on.

UPDATE: so even tho the co2 bubbles are blowing all over the tank and the fish look like they fight the flow in spots, the flow isn't actually that great. the top and bottom are okay-ish, but the middle strings barely moved. and the back corners are basically stagnant, which is where the BGA is showing up... in the corners and the middle. also, my hand has more algae stuck to it than I expected so I guess turning the spray bar up toward the surface didn't really help anything. is a protein skimmer the only way to keep the surface clean? or do I need a bigger filter? I have an Eheim 2217 sitting in my basement... or should I just move the spray bar to the same end as the intake and have the spray bar blow across the length of the tank instead front-to-back?


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## Alicia (Nov 8, 2011)

Diana said:


> Erythromycin will indeed kill BGA.
> But if the conditions that encouraged it are not altered it can come back.




My problem with BGA started when I bought the Finnex Planted + or shortly thereafter. I've now reduced the time the light is on because I changed nothing else in the tank so it had to be too much light.


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## keymastr (May 25, 2015)

When you aimed the spray bar at the surface you decreased the co2 because it is off-gassing faster now. And your PH test suggests that you are not getting enough co2 in the water. I have always gotten a little scum/bubbles floating at the top and it is not really a problem. And the co2 mist is great for the plants. If you do not like it you will need to get a better reactor but I would turn up the gas for now. Go slow so you can watch the fish for stress but medium to low levels of co2 are when BBA really thrives.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Alicia said:


> My problem with BGA started when I bought the Finnex Planted + or shortly thereafter. I've now reduced the time the light is on because I changed nothing else in the tank so it had to be too much light.


BGA needs a surprisingly low light level to do well and in fact doesn't do well in high light. Like aquarium plants, algae are also shade organisms; high light levels can harm them.

Does the CO2 in the PB setup last the entire photoperiod and deliver gas consistently?


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

So I spent FOREVER basically re-building my tank... here is what I did:

Last night (took HOURS!!):

Removed the plants that were covered in BGA; it's thinned out quite a bit now, but it looks better with just the healthy stuff remaining.
Reduced light period to 6 hours more in line with normal daylight hours. I had the light set for 8 hours during the hours that I'm home so I could enjoy my tank, but I can't enjoy it when it's struggling with algae.
Replaced GLA inline reactor with Ista Turbo reactor. No more 7-Up look. CO2 should be fully dissolved in the water now.
Turned the spray bar back down into the tank and away from the surface to increase flow throughout the tank and reduce CO2 gassing off.
Reduced CO2 to 1 bps considering the previous 2 points.
Changed 75% of the water.
Cleaned the filter.
Dosed 2.5 mL of macro solution. I didn't have time to re-mix a new solution so hopefully dosing half of a dose will accomplish the same thing as mixing a 50% solution? I have syringes in all sizes for accurate dosing. If nitrates are still too high at the end of this week, I'll mix a new macro solution with K2SO4 instead of KNO3 and KH4PO4 at 50% dose. Where does the nitrate come from in this case, just the fish and food?

Today:

Dosed 1.25 mL of micro solution. Again, no time to remix a new one so I cut the dose down to 25% of a full dose.
Fed the fish. I plan to drive to Windsor this week to pick up some better quality food for them, Northfin Community 0.5 mm bits.

To do:
As soon as I can open my garage (I guess the garage door opener doesn't want to work this winter...), I'm going to grab a contractor bag to cut up and use to block the indirect light from the window (and to use as a background for the betta tank).

Questions:

Considering these changes, should I just dose 1 time each of 50% macro and 25% micro this week since I didn't remove the O+ tabs? By now, the pill has dissolved so I didn't want to risk having those little beads making a mess all over the tank.
*Am I missing anything with these changes? On the right track? I certainly don't want to make things WORSE, so please let me know if I messed up somewhere.*

I *greatly* appreciate everyone's help!

(I didn't get a chance to bust out my camera and take a real pic of just the 15 gallon, but I snapped this one real quick with my phone.)


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

The changes seem fine although I'm confused with your fert levels. Too many variables; O+ and fert solutions that could be any strength. I'm also hesitant to accept N levels based on tests performed at hobbyist level. 

AFAIK these tanks probably never had the plant mass to sustain EI levels. Recipe for disaster. The tank with stems will likely do well on EI eventually, not yet though. 

It's a case now of wait and see. 

If BGA comes back don't ever use antibiotics to treat it. The ammonia spike wasn't just from dead BGA, it was also from fish waste. You now have to cycle your tank again as your bacteria have died. Chemiclean is a safer product to use as this has less impact on nitrifying bacteria, so long as you run an airstone during treatment. It is just as effective as antibiotic treatments. BGA like any algae will return if the conditions still favour it. 

Edit: I believe BGA Slime remover is very similar to Chemiclean so both should work.


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

First of all I don't see like any BGA in those pictures. Looks mostly like deficient/struggling plants that have developed GSA on lower leaves and are generally not in good health.

Second of all a planted + sitting on the rim of a shallow tank like that is quite a bit of light. Do not underestimate how much pressure you are putting on your tank to perform under that circumstance. Plants need ideal conditions to handle that kind of power (which obviously is not happening). I run a 30" planted + on my low tech 30 gallon (much taller tank) with a LOT of floaters to keep algae at bay. Without the floating plants that tank was a mess because light was way too much.

Overall you're trying too hard and your setup is not doing well under that amount of light. While the above poster claims that BGA does not do well in high light (which IMO is true and I agree) your general tank health is NOT doing well under high light. If I know one thing about BGA is that it loves to appear when general tank health is sub-par.

Most of your plants aren't doing too hot which causes decaying matter and pollutes the water column. This is when BGA and other algae thrives. Tone down the light, maybe toss some more floaters / easier plants in there, keep CO2 at a steady level, and keep trying. Lack of healthy plant mass / too much light / probably too much nutrients is what is causing you issues


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## yakal (Sep 4, 2015)

i agree with straight shooter.... not enough plant mass in my opinion. with EI and o tabs... too much nutrient. you might want to try with no dosing for now considering ecocomplete and o+ tabs. ****AND A LOT OF PATIENCE****.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you for your input! I did a half dose of macros on Sunday after a huge water change and a 1/4 dose of micros the day after, and that's it for ferts this week. I also increased the CO2 a bit on Tuesday. Besides feeding the fish every other day, that's all I've done to it, and I'm just gonna leave it alone and see what happens with a weekly 50% water change and no ferts. Should I raise the light off the tank a few inches? is it okay that I increases the CO2 a little?

I never used antibiotics for the BGA. I haven't used the slime remover either. should I use it while leaving everything else the same? I'm gonna try to get some floaters too.

Thanks again! I'll update when I test the water again on Saturday.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

The plants are suffering trace toxicity, as is clearly evident in the pictures. Cease dosing traces and do a 200% WC.
The algae? That's a result of the excess traces.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

I replaced about 75% of the water on Sunday and dosed nothing. I also raised the light another 4" so it's about ~14" above the substrate with a sliding glass cover. Yesterday I treated with Blue Green Slime Remover, and I turned the spray bar toward the water surface for agitation/oxygenation. This Friday I will receive a huge order of FAST growing plants and floaters. When I put them in, I'm gonna pull out as much of the O+ tabs as I can. 

I'll keep doing large water changes every Sunday and hope for the best. I'm also thinking about replacing the inline heater with an Eheim Jäger 75W to help improve output power and cutting the spray bar so it fits at the short end of the tank with the intake pipe so it can blow across the length of the tank to improve circulation. 

Should I keep CO2 at 3 bps during all of this? Or should I stop CO2 for a little bit until things start looking better?


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## Zoidborg (Jan 29, 2014)

I had the same problems with my tanks because my planted + was to close to the rim, I've since moved on to a 24/7 (on my own timer 24/7 mode 7am- midnight)

Rotala worked at first for me but as soon as I removed them from the tank I had no use for as many O+ plus I was using. Rotala always seems to do great at first then gets covered in algae, at leas for me.

Note that I am using low tech and liquid ferts (as we discussed in pm)


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## klibs (May 1, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The plants are suffering trace toxicity, as is clearly evident in the pictures. Cease dosing traces and do a 200% WC.
> The algae? That's a result of the excess traces.


This is also a possibility.

IME the only time nutrient toxicity has caused issues are with traces and sometimes phosphorous. Trace toxicity is bad news. I agree with others that you should chill out on dosing...

Lowering the light levels will make things easier as well. Raise your fixture a bit or put a screen over parts of it to reduce PAR on your tank.

Do not stop dosing CO2


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

klibs said:


> This is also a possibility.
> 
> IME the only time nutrient toxicity has caused issues are with traces and sometimes phosphorous. Trace toxicity is bad news. I agree with others that you should chill out on dosing...
> 
> ...


In certain cases, lowering the light will actually exacerbate problems if the dosing is not also lowered, because less light means less nutrient uptake, which increases toxicity.

It's also dogma that CO2 is the root of all problems. The problems in this thread and in literally hundreds and hundreds of threads here at TPT and hundreds and hundreds at other forums are all due to trace toxicity. Just look through the old posts here in the algae, fertilizers, and plant forums and you can see that trace toxicity is a rampant problem spanning years, but no one thought it was a toxicity. Quite the opposite. The advice most often given? More CO2, less light, more fertilizers. If these things actually worked in most cases, we wouldn't be having these issues.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

So raise the light or don't? I've also decreased the photo period to 6 hours/day. I've kept CO2 at 3 bps, but I have to oxygenate the water while treating with Blue Green Slime Remover so I'm not really sure if one is cancelling out the other. How do I decrease the trace levels? I've done 2 weeks of major water changes. I'm going to dig out as much of the O+ tabs as I can when I get more plants on Friday. Will the new fast growing plants soak up the excess traces? Or, will they just suffer too? They're water wisteria, brazillian pennywort, mexican oak leaf, amazon frogbit, and dwarf hygro.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> because less light means less nutrient uptake, which increases toxicity.


I am rather curious as to how a plant that is taking up less nutrients, can possibly then begin to uptake toxic amounts.


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

You have the right idea. (raise the light an inch or two)
Keep CO2 at present level's , choose dosing scheme and stick with it, especially after new plant's arrive.(EI for your size tank would be my choice)
With increased plant mass,more nutrient's will be taken up by plant's.Leave the osmocote put.

Missed the post where you say you have already raised the light four inches since the problem's began to appear.
Be patient.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> The plants are suffering trace toxicity, as is clearly evident in the pictures. Cease dosing traces and do a 200% WC.
> The algae? That's a result of the excess traces.


Disclaimer: I am very inexperienced compared to most on this site and am very much just trying to learn a few things.

Someone has to explain the benefit of a 200% water change to me. If you have already changed all of the water what does changing it again do? Are you giving the tank a sort of "rinse"? That seems very extreme to me and would be necessary only with some type of contamination. Wouldn't you then want to also run some carbon in the filter to aid in removing any undesired substance?

I've been visiting this site for going on a year now and I've never heard of this before. I've also noticed that "trace toxicity" has shown up as the woe of many a poster with problems. Has this phenomenon just been discovered recently? I don't think I've seen it mentioned before. It sure seems to be the problem in an unusually high number of situations.


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## Nordic (Nov 11, 2003)

Well I suppose it might help to leach out some excess nutrients soaked up into the substrate, if it was of a type that would do such a thing.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

jr125 said:


> Disclaimer: I am very inexperienced compared to most on this site and am very much just trying to learn a few things.
> 
> Someone has to explain the benefit of a 200% water change to me. If you have already changed all of the water what does changing it again do? Are you giving the tank a sort of "rinse"? That seems very extreme to me and would be necessary only with some type of contamination. Wouldn't you then want to also run some carbon in the filter to aid in removing any undesired substance?
> 
> I've been visiting this site for going on a year now and I've never heard of this before. I've also noticed that "trace toxicity" has shown up as the woe of many a poster with problems. Has this phenomenon just been discovered recently? I don't think I've seen it mentioned before. It sure seems to be the problem in an unusually high number of situations.


If you are overdosing by 100x, doing an 80% WC will mean you are now OD'ing by 20x. The 200% is way to tell you to do massive water changes.

As for why you've never hear of it? Because almost one was ever aware of it, not even the experienced. The ones that were aware did share their knowledge, but no one paid any attention or their experiences or their experiences were dismissed by those same experienced people. Just browse through the threads and you'll see toxicity is a very common problem if you just know how to read the plants.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Solcielo can you please stop referring trace toxicity as the cause of people's troubles? I'm getting sick of seeing this nonsense spread around. Trace toxicity happens for sure but not in EVERY case presented on this forum as the you seem to claim. 

Also 200% WC is ridiculous when a 100% WC would do the same thing.


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## Solcielo lawrencia (Dec 30, 2013)

Straight shooter said:


> Solcielo can you please stop referring trace toxicity as the cause of people's troubles? I'm getting sick of seeing this nonsense spread around. Trace toxicity happens for sure but not in EVERY case presented on this forum as the you seem to claim.
> 
> Also 200% WC is ridiculous when a 100% WC would do the same thing.


Trace toxicity is not the cause of peoples' troubles. Trace toxicity is the cause of the plants' troubles, which is caused by people dosing toxic levels of traces.

Why do a larger than 100% WC? Partly because it's impossible to do a 100% WC but also because there will be high concentrations in the substrate that will leech out due to the concentration gradient; high will move to the low.

Lastly, do you have any evidence to suggest that the cause of the plant problems in this thread is a result of a deficiency or something else? I've looked through the past 20+ pages in this and other forums and toxicity is far more common than deficiency. In fact, threads that actually show deficiency are quite rare. You can believe whatever you want, but it should be supported by evidence. Your beliefs shouldn't be based on someone else's perceived authority or on collective belief. Collective belief is why the toxicity threads outnumber the deficiency threads by over 25:1.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

> Collective belief is why the toxicity threads outnumber the deficiency threads by over 25:1.


Is that just because you personally write 25 posts here daily on this subject?


I think you alone are drowning out the discussions on nutrient deficiencies..


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> You can believe whatever you want, but it should be supported by evidence.


Can you kindly link one of your posts that contains any sort of evidence?


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Perhaps I can shed some light on why toxicity thread's outnumber deficiency thread's .

Folk's lard on the nutrient's via water column dosing without sufficient plant mass to use them, and or with the same belief's that they adopt when medicating fish,If a little is good,,then more is better.
They load up the substrate enhanced, or inert, with more nutrient's (see osmocote) and these two variables are way more common than starving the plant's.
Truth is..there are scores of people dosing their tank's without issues .
Do not believe for a moment that there are only one or two people capable of indentifying toxicity or deficiencies for it simply is not true . 
Scores of people manage to run their high tech/low tech tank's without issues from trace or macro toxicity,deficiencies.
Hard sometimes to learn with the babbling's,declaration's, of a few who struggle to grow the weed's, but other's will actually present their theory's with number's,photo's .
If they won't..could it be cause they just don't know?
Are the photo's presented by those who have no such issues a mirage?
Do they all lie with regard's to their dosing,lighting, nutrient delivery? 
Clearly there is evidence that beautiful tank's exist with EI dosing and or other dosing schemes without issues .
Plant's inherently want to grow,ever see weed's growing from a crack in the sidewalk?
Most of the issues we see with regard's to poor growth/health of the plant's/weed's are self inflicted .


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## roadmaster (Nov 5, 2009)

Straight shooter said:


> Is that just because you personally write 25 posts here daily on this subject?
> 
> 
> I think you alone are drowning out the discussions on nutrient deficiencies..


 Yes,this ^
Run it up the flag pole and see if anybody salutes.


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## battmanh (Feb 15, 2014)

Solcielo lawrencia said:


> Trace toxicity is not the cause of peoples' troubles. Trace toxicity is the cause of the plants' troubles, which is caused by people dosing toxic levels of traces.
> 
> Why do a larger than 100% WC? Partly because it's impossible to do a 100% WC but also because there will be high concentrations in the substrate that will leech out due to the concentration gradient; high will move to the low.
> 
> Lastly, do you have any evidence to suggest that the cause of the plant problems in this thread is a result of a deficiency or something else? I've looked through the past 20+ pages in this and other forums and toxicity is far more common than deficiency. In fact, threads that actually show deficiency are quite rare. You can believe whatever you want, but it should be supported by evidence. Your beliefs shouldn't be based on someone else's perceived authority or on collective belief. Collective belief is why the toxicity threads outnumber the deficiency threads by over 25:1.


To me you lost all credibility when I saw how many threads you spammed preaching micro toxicity. There was even a user whose issue was obviously mechanical damage and you still blamed micro toxicity. Please have a filter and carefully think about the situations before preaching. Thank you roadmaster for having so much patience and giving users proper well-thought advice.


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## jr125 (Mar 5, 2015)

roadmaster said:


> Perhaps I can shed some light on why toxicity thread's outnumber deficiency thread's .
> 
> Folk's lard on the nutrient's via water column dosing without sufficient plant mass to use them, and or with the same belief's that they adopt when medicating fish,If a little is good,,then more is better.
> They load up the substrate enhanced, or inert, with more nutrient's (see osmocote) and these two variables are way more common than starving the plant's.
> ...


Years ago I saw an interview with a member of Gordon Lightfoot's band. He made a comment that has stuck with me. It's not always about what you play, sometimes it's more about what you don't play.

That comment has become kind of relevant to me as I try to learn about doing a better job growing plants in my aquarium. At first it was all about what do I need to put in this size tank and how often. How much light and how long do I need to run it. There are a lot of charts on this method and that method. The more I learn I think it's becoming apparent that what I don't do is probably more important than what I do. Every tank situation is different. I can't necessarily do what you do and make it work for me. 

That's why I appreciate time taken by roadmaster and the many others who ask questions and try to understand what's going on in a particular situation before offering advice. To just be able to take a look at a photo(usually pretty poor) and come to the same conclusion in dozens of different situations without any other info is remarkable. Or IMO not.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

So I think things are finally starting to balance out now that I added a bunch of fast-growing, nitrate loving plants. They arrived last Friday but they just floated in the tank until Sunday when I did a 50% water change and planted as many as I could. I tested my water before the water change and these are the results I got:

pH: 6.8
Nitrite: 0
Ammonia: 0
Nitrate: 20 ppm
GH: 8
KH: 5
Phosphate: 1.0 ppm

I was so happy to see nitrates down to a reasonable level!! Do you think just floating the new plants for a couple days soaked up that much nitrate and other ferts? The water itself looks so much better and less like clear syrup. UltraLife Blue Green Slime Remover took care of the BGA. It just gradually disappeared like magic! The plants seem much happier... except the rotalas. I've never had much success with rotalas for some reason.

I also wonder if having the spray bar pointed almost straight up at the surface did something to help balance out the tank. I know I'm probably gassing off quite a bit of the 3 bps CO2 I'm pumping in, but things are finally starting to improve so I'm hesitant to change the surface agitation.

I have the day off from work tomorrow (yay for sick days, lol) so I plan to cut down the spray bar to fit on the short end of the tank with the inlet pipe, and I'm also considering adding a sponge filter with a (tiny) powerhead in the back left corner where the BGA really wants to rear its ugly head. 1) That'll help with circulation, and 2) it'll seed a sponge filter in case I need it for fry. I have some gorgeous little Endler's Livebearers arriving tomorrow.  Moving the spray bar and adding a sponge filter/powerhead should be enough to improve circulation without having to remove the inline filter and put one in the tank... I hope.

Here are some pics. Excuse the haphazard planting. I literally stuck things in the substrate where ever there was room. In another week or two after the plants really improve, I'll move the plants around so it makes more sense. I wish I could take out that big, U-shaped piece of wood, but the pleco really likes it.

Don't mind the floating mass of Hygro









Lots of new leaves in the A. reineckii since Sunday









Lots of new runners since Sunday









*So when should I start dosing again?* I know my tank isn't perfectly healthy yet, but you guys have been a HUGE help at getting it to go the right direction! Thanks so much!


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## Diana (Jan 14, 2010)

Monitor the new situation, with the faster growing plants. 
See if you can find a pattern to the NO3. Currently the NO3 is just from fish food? 
It ought to rise through the week, then drop with a water change, if the plants are not using it all. 
Or, it could drop quite low, in spite of feeding the fish, because the plants are using most of the nutrients from the fish food. 

Remember that fish food has reasonable amounts of N, P and most traces. 
Fish food is low in K, Fe, Ca, Mg, S and C.
If the NO3 is fairly stable, or rising, then the fish food is giving the plants most of what they need. The plants are not quite using it all. 
You might just need to dose a little potassium and iron. (plus the carbon that you are currently dosing). 

If the NO3 drops very low, then you might also need to dose N, P, and traces, but not much- just enough to keep the NO3 between 5-20ppm.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Correct, the NO3 is just from fish food and what's left of the O+ tabs buried in the substrate (it's been just over 4 weeks). I'll keep an eye on the water parameters, specifically Nitrate, and see how it goes. Thanks!


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

So I've been watching the plants' progress while making a few changes. On Feb 14, I was finally able to move the spray bar to the same end of the tank as the intake, and it greatly improved circulation in the tank. The frogbit gets blown around like mad now and gets tangled in my taller plants so I'm thinking of replacing them with something else... or maybe not replacing them. They definitely block A LOT of light! I've noticed my A. reineckii isn't doing very well so maybe it's time to start dosing something again? If so, what?

Here is FTS on Feb 7









And FTS yesterday Feb 17. I thought growth had slowed considerably, but after seeing both of these shots side by side, maybe it hasn't slowed as much as I thought?









Signs of deficiency?



























On Feb 14, these are the test results:
pH: 6.6
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 10-20 ppm
Phosphate: 0.5 ppm
KH: 6
GH: 8
decreased CO2 to 1 bps because of the spraybar position change and because it's not agitating the surface anymore

Yesterday Feb 17:
pH: 7.6(?)
NH3/NH4: 0
NO2: 0
NO3: 5
PO4: 0.5
GH: 6
KH: 4
Temp: 77.6F
Bumped up CO2 from 1 bps to 2 bps

Would a weekly GH booster be helpful or my GH and KH don't indicate the need for it?


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

GH booster isn't needed given the parameters from the tap water. I regard some surface agitation as very important, so I would be looking to find the best balance between surface agitation and flow, fixing flow as needed by other methods like a little power head or whatever.

Can you double check the test results please. It is almost impossible in a normal tank for GH to drop a full two degrees over three days. Either some part of the testing was incorrect, or did you do a water change in between?

CO2, surface agitation, KH and pH have a strong relationship. A reduction in surface agitation and a reduction in KH (as indicated by your test results), will drive pH lower, however your test results show a pH increase of 1.0 pH. If the pH and KH results are accurate, this means you have significantly reduced the amount of CO2.

What sort of dosing regime and water change schedule are you willing to follow? Daily dosing, bi-daily dosing, weekly dosing? 50% water change once a week?


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Oh sorry for the confusion. The Feb 14 test results were before a weekly water change; those were my water parameters 7 days after the last water change. The Feb 17 results were 3 days after a water change; I wanted to see what the mid-week water parameters looked like considering the changes I made on Feb 14 (relocated the spray bar, stopped surface agitation, and decreased CO2). 

I'll turn the spray bar back toward the surface again for a little agitation. The frogbit won't be pleased. Think it would be alright to do away with the floaters now that my tank seems to be doing better? They seem to block a ton of light! And their roots constantly get tangled in my taller plants despite regular trimming. But, if they're part of the reason my tank is doing better, I'll definitely keep them. I'll just have to corral them.

I'll turn my CO2 back up to 3 bps, too, since I'll be adding a little surface agitation again.

As for dosing, I'm willing to dose as often or as little as I need to in order for my tank to thrive. I have dry ferts as well as some seachem stuff (excel and comp). I just haven't dosed anything at all in about 3 weeks I think, just been doing weekly 50% water changes and monitoring plant growth. In the meantime, I've been reading about EI and PPS-Pro dosing until my head felt like exploding. Since the A. reineckii seems to be showing signs of a deficiency, I figured it's time to start slowly dosing again. I'm just not sure where to start. The last thing I want is more algae and/or sad, unhealthy plants.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

If the floaters make a massive difference, it'll be light related, not plant related. Just so happens that floaters block light. Better to reduce light, then gradually increase it again at some later stage IMO, unless you really like the floaters.

It sounds like you're fiddling around with things to much. The problem is if something goes wrong, it's almost impossible to determine which of the 14 things (figure of speech) you changed was the largest cause of the problems.

My suggestion from here would be to stop playing with stuff, until you notice an issue that may need immediate attention. CO2, the floaters, spray bar positioning, leave it all alone. Not only because you're playing around with it to much, but you need to start adding nutrients to the water, and these nutrients won't hurt algae, only help. So if you go pulling the floaters out and dosing nutrients, you're very likely to trigger an algae growth spurt again.

As for the nutrients, my suggestion would be 1.0 ppm per day of NO3 with KNO3, 0.2 ppm per day of PO4 with KH2PO4, and 0.6 ppm per day of K with K2SO4, with 50% of the water being changed per week. 50% once per week, 10% per day, 20% every other day, doesn't matter, each will keep the nutrient levels within reasonable bounds. Doing less of something more often, is better then doing a massive amount of the thing less often. But I'm probably splitting hairs.

I would maintain this for at least two weeks before you even think of making other changes.

If you start to see algae, stop dosing nutrients. Go over the procedures you have been performing on the tank. Did you accidentally bump or reduce CO2, have the floaters all been pushed to one end of the tank, are you sure you've been dosing the correct amounts. 

If the fish show signs of distress, you'll have to reduce CO2 by some margin, bend down with hands clasped and pray to the algae gods.

If you start to see signs of color loss in the new growth, begin dosing trace elements daily also. Target 0.015 ppm of Fe per day from a balanced trace mix.

If you start to see signs of distress in the old growth of plants, bump all of the macro dosings by 10%.

Once your two weeks are up, decide what major change you want to apply to the aquarium. Removal of floaters, bumping CO2 further, increasing light levels. Whatever.

The less you do at once the better. The more you try and do things all at once, the more strain you put on the system being able to maintain balance, and the more problems you'll create for yourself. You're aquarium isn't a misbehaving little brat that needs constant attention, stop treating it as such and sit back and enjoy what you've created. At all times, try and let it find it's own balance by working with it, not against it.

Good luck and cheers.


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## Straight shooter (Nov 26, 2015)

Agree. This tank just needs time and consistency with the right nutrients and light. Growth is pretty damn healthy really. Things are only slightly off. I like the numbers for nutrient levels Audionut provided, just minor increases to address a minor problem.


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## AquaPeanut (Apr 28, 2012)

Thank you both a ton for your input! I'll start dosing as suggested this Sunday following the weekly 50% water change. I used rotalabutterfly.com to figure out dosing for solutions. One question though... dosing to 1.0 ppm NO3 using KNO3 provides 0.63 ppm K, and dosing to 0.2 ppm PO4 using KH2PO4 provides 0.08 ppm K. So that puts me at 0.71 ppm K before I even get to the K2SO4. Should I omit the K2SO4 for now? Or still add 0.6 ppm using K2SO4? I think that would put me at 1.31 ppm K daily... unless I'm missing something.

Also, should I add a dose on water change day and everyday so I end up dosing 7 days a week? Or should I have a "no dosing" day the day before a water change? 

Then if I end up needing traces (using CSM+B or Flourish Comp? I have both...), would I alternate dosing days with macros and micros? Like EI? Or more like PPS-Pro where I'd dose both every day. Trying to understand where these target doses came from so I can eventually learn to troubleshoot and make proper adjustments on my own.

Just want to make sure I get this right. 

one last thing: regarding the floaters... since I moved my spraybar to increase flow, they definitely all stay at the far end of the tank all the time.


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## Audionut (Apr 24, 2015)

I recommend to dose a little extra K, because you get a little extra N and P from having fish in the tank.

Skipping a dose won't make a massive difference, I would rather maintain consistency by dosing every day.

Dose the traces every day. The only problem with dosing the traces and macros on the same day is with regards to precipitation. And precipitation, by and large, is only an issue when dosing fairly large amounts of the nutrients. If you stick to the dosages I have listed it will be a non-issue. If you decide at some later stage that you need to increase the dosages, it may be worthwhile adjusting the dosing regime slightly to account for the increased dosage amounts. You can dose macros first, and then dose traces after doing some other stuff, or dose macros in the morning, and traces in the arvo. Whatever you feel more comfortable consistently doing.

My main concern was trying to convince you not to make lots of changes at once, or constantly changing stuff. With regards to the floaters, it will be pretty easy to see their affect. If you start getting algae on the side of the tank where there are no floaters, and not on the side where there are floaters, then it's clearly a light issue. There's probably two ways to tackle that situation, either by reducing light, or adjusting the flow. Adjusting the flow will have knock on effects to CO2 and O2, that could cause further issues. Adjusting light will only adjust the speed of growth.

It sounds like you only have the floaters there because of light related issues, and they are causing other issues such as being tangled. So it makes sense to tackle the light issue with light, rather then with shade from floaters that cause some other issues. This way you can focus on getting the right amount of light onto the plants you really want growing. Anyway, I'm probably starting to ramble.

Start your dosing regime and wait to see if an issue even arises. Tackle each issue one at a time as they arise, and consider that I'm likely describing mole hills as mountains.


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